{"total":{"value":60,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-06-27"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"16047","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16047","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db53741711f1205b9596e4971935c74a2e627684c85f64cd7bc3db86aa69089b015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-27T13:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院國民黨黨團，有鑑於公糧收購價格自2011年起，迄今已長達13年未調漲，反觀13年間，基本工資從1萬7,880元漲到2萬7,470元，工資漲幅53.64%；秧苗由每盤28元上漲到40元，上漲43%；物價指數上漲超過15%；其他如農藥、肥料上漲近25%，農民耕種成本不斷增加，惟公糧收購價格仍停留13年前水準，嚴重影響農民權益，故公糧收購價格應每公斤至少提高8元以上。爰此，建請院會作成決議：「農業部應調整公糧收購價格，由每公斤26元調整至每公斤34元，提高農民基本利潤，以因應近年物價劇烈波動導致務農成本增加，落實照顧農民之政策。」是否有當？請公決案。(修正動議併同黨團協商)）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-27T12:35:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T13:17:00+08:00","duration":2496,"影片長度":"00:41:36","委員發言時間":"12:35:24 - 13:17:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2024062441","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":309.82221875000005,"end":310.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":310.78409375,"end":311.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":311.49284375,"end":314.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":314.88471875000005,"end":317.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":317.97284375000004,"end":323.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":324.03096875,"end":362.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":363.09659375,"end":367.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":368.49659375000005,"end":392.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":399.66471875,"end":400.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":401.09909375,"end":402.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":402.49971875,"end":406.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":406.49909375000004,"end":411.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":411.61221875,"end":413.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":414.16034375000004,"end":418.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":418.32846875,"end":422.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":422.88471875000005,"end":425.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":425.24721875,"end":429.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":429.83721875000003,"end":431.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":432.16596875000005,"end":433.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":433.48221875,"end":436.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":436.55346875000004,"end":438.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":439.21971875,"end":441.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":441.56534375,"end":443.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":445.73346875000004,"end":455.23409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":455.38596875,"end":455.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.55471875,"end":455.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":456.76971875000004,"end":457.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.57971875000004,"end":458.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":458.00159375000004,"end":458.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.92971875,"end":460.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":459.57096875,"end":460.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":460.41471875,"end":464.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":464.92034375000003,"end":468.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.97096875000005,"end":466.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.46409375,"end":471.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.14284375000005,"end":474.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.84284375000004,"end":475.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.19284375,"end":493.20284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.54034375000003,"end":508.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.13284375,"end":511.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.27159375,"end":513.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.97159375,"end":516.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.24971875,"end":519.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.47721875,"end":522.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.42596875,"end":533.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.5634687500001,"end":546.0047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.5447187500001,"end":549.0928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.14346875,"end":550.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.94471875,"end":554.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.64471875,"end":561.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.05284375,"end":565.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":565.02284375,"end":565.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.30971875,"end":565.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":565.9678437499999,"end":566.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.01846875,"end":566.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":566.9297187500001,"end":567.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":567.43596875,"end":578.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":578.4890937499999,"end":580.4128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":580.91909375,"end":582.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.2690937500001,"end":582.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":583.43346875,"end":584.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.36534375,"end":588.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.39471875,"end":626.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.73034375,"end":698.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":698.1497187500001,"end":698.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":698.60534375,"end":706.6884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":707.2790937500001,"end":709.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":708.89909375,"end":709.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":710.2490937500002,"end":711.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":711.2109687500001,"end":711.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":712.69596875,"end":731.3428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":731.5790937500001,"end":773.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":773.42909375,"end":774.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":775.3022187500001,"end":780.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":780.44909375,"end":781.5459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":782.3559687500001,"end":784.4990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":784.98846875,"end":786.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":787.4353437500001,"end":791.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":792.14346875,"end":797.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":797.47596875,"end":799.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":799.8215937500001,"end":802.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":803.2978437500001,"end":832.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":832.5928437500002,"end":835.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":835.90034375,"end":843.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":844.3547187500001,"end":845.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":846.00846875,"end":846.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":847.29096875,"end":864.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":865.4484687500001,"end":867.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":868.4184687500001,"end":870.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":870.74721875,"end":875.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":875.11784375,"end":875.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":875.13471875,"end":876.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":876.50159375,"end":878.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":877.88534375,"end":879.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":879.9778437500001,"end":879.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":879.99471875,"end":880.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":880.01159375,"end":887.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":880.33221875,"end":880.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":881.02409375,"end":881.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":887.4365937500002,"end":887.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":887.7065937500001,"end":889.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":889.02284375,"end":889.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":889.0903437500001,"end":892.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":892.26284375,"end":898.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":896.1103437500001,"end":896.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":897.30846875,"end":897.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":898.6922187500002,"end":900.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":901.1897187500001,"end":907.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":908.3953437500002,"end":917.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":917.71034375,"end":924.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":924.3928437500001,"end":928.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":928.71284375,"end":932.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":932.93159375,"end":936.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":936.9140937500001,"end":937.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":937.96034375,"end":941.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":941.2509687500001,"end":946.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":946.6509687500002,"end":963.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":963.40784375,"end":968.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":969.3647187500001,"end":970.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":971.8959687500001,"end":973.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":974.8828437500001,"end":977.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":977.4140937500001,"end":980.2322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":980.5022187500001,"end":980.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":981.53159375,"end":988.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":989.17596875,"end":1011.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1012.09221875,"end":1019.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1019.6353437500002,"end":1022.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1022.77409375,"end":1032.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1032.1565937500002,"end":1037.0503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1038.0797187500002,"end":1039.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1039.7503437500002,"end":1041.1847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1041.5728437500002,"end":1044.9478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1045.7915937500002,"end":1047.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1047.4790937500002,"end":1048.4915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1049.0315937500002,"end":1051.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1052.87909375,"end":1053.5372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1054.14471875,"end":1056.2034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1057.1484687500001,"end":1058.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1059.6797187500001,"end":1059.9834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1060.21971875,"end":1064.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1064.4890937500002,"end":1076.8584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1077.0103437500002,"end":1080.2840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1080.31784375,"end":1082.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1084.36784375,"end":1086.7472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1086.8484687500002,"end":1088.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1089.2278437500001,"end":1090.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1090.5103437500002,"end":1092.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1093.0753437500002,"end":1094.8640937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1095.38721875,"end":1098.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1098.5428437500002,"end":1100.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1100.4665937500001,"end":1103.7403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1104.3309687500002,"end":1109.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1109.3765937500002,"end":1112.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1113.2915937500002,"end":1114.7090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1114.74284375,"end":1122.4378437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1122.7415937500002,"end":1132.5459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1133.03534375,"end":1139.7178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1139.7684687500002,"end":1144.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1144.8984687500001,"end":1146.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1147.10909375,"end":1153.1165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1153.2347187500002,"end":1156.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1156.94721875,"end":1159.8328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1159.8328437500002,"end":1162.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1162.6172187500001,"end":1163.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1163.2415937500002,"end":1167.5784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1168.21971875,"end":1171.7803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1172.26971875,"end":1174.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1174.8684687500001,"end":1183.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1183.9134687500002,"end":1187.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1188.2334687500002,"end":1194.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1194.62909375,"end":1198.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1198.3584687500002,"end":1200.9234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1201.4465937500001,"end":1204.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1204.9565937500001,"end":1206.5597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1206.89721875,"end":1209.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1209.42846875,"end":1211.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1211.8584687500002,"end":1225.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1225.44284375,"end":1230.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1230.67409375,"end":1231.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1232.2603437500002,"end":1232.8509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1233.2390937500002,"end":1235.8040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1236.1922187500002,"end":1238.9090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1245.2034687500002,"end":1250.7047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1250.7215937500002,"end":1253.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1253.6072187500001,"end":1255.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1256.25659375,"end":1257.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1257.8259687500001,"end":1267.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1267.34346875,"end":1290.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1290.6140937500002,"end":1312.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1311.3365937500002,"end":1313.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1313.6653437500001,"end":1316.9222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1315.28534375,"end":1315.6734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1317.0403437500001,"end":1319.1665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1319.6390937500003,"end":1320.0272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1320.0272187500002,"end":1321.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1320.09471875,"end":1327.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1327.84034375,"end":1329.7472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1330.2534687500001,"end":1339.2815937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1330.8272187500002,"end":1332.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1334.69159375,"end":1339.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1339.2815937500002,"end":1340.9353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1341.18846875,"end":1342.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1342.6903437500002,"end":1354.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1354.53659375,"end":1358.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1358.63721875,"end":1359.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1359.3965937500002,"end":1364.0372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1364.54346875,"end":1371.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1373.2003437500002,"end":1410.0047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1415.6578437500002,"end":1417.0753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1417.0753437500002,"end":1419.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1420.2984687500002,"end":1423.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1423.70721875,"end":1424.2303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1424.4665937500001,"end":1426.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1426.69409375,"end":1443.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1443.41721875,"end":1445.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1446.21846875,"end":1450.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1450.6734687500002,"end":1452.1078437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1452.56346875,"end":1477.7915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1477.8422187500003,"end":1479.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1480.1709687500002,"end":1481.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1481.5040937500003,"end":1483.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1483.79909375,"end":1485.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1486.3472187500001,"end":1488.4903437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1488.5915937500001,"end":1493.5697187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1493.8228437500002,"end":1495.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1495.7634687500001,"end":1505.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1505.9728437500003,"end":1518.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1518.4603437500002,"end":1529.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1529.88471875,"end":1530.4078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1530.5259687500002,"end":1544.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1545.3422187500003,"end":1545.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1546.3040937500002,"end":1549.2403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1549.5440937500002,"end":1550.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1550.6747187500002,"end":1567.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1568.3259687500001,"end":1570.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1570.4522187500002,"end":1571.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1572.1565937500002,"end":1577.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1577.7928437500002,"end":1580.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1581.2859687500002,"end":1582.9903437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1583.36159375,"end":1584.5259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1584.8128437500002,"end":1586.6522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1586.83784375,"end":1588.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1588.2215937500002,"end":1590.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1590.7190937500002,"end":1590.8709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1590.93846875,"end":1590.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1591.7315937500002,"end":1600.1353437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1600.48971875,"end":1602.8015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1603.4090937500002,"end":1604.6409687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1605.97409375,"end":1609.1465937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1609.48409375,"end":1611.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1611.6440937500001,"end":1611.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1611.7115937500002,"end":1611.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1611.76221875,"end":1611.9647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1611.9647187500002,"end":1612.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1612.03221875,"end":1613.5340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1613.5340937500002,"end":1613.7872187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1613.7872187500002,"end":1613.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1613.8209687500002,"end":1613.8378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1613.8378437500003,"end":1621.1109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1621.1109687500002,"end":1631.5565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1631.9109687500002,"end":1635.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1636.2478437500001,"end":1636.4672187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1636.7203437500002,"end":1637.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1637.32784375,"end":1638.4247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1638.5428437500002,"end":1641.9178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1642.4578437500002,"end":1647.4022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1647.5540937500002,"end":1649.3934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1649.3934687500002,"end":1672.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1654.8103437500001,"end":1654.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1654.91159375,"end":1654.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1654.9453437500001,"end":1655.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1655.0972187500001,"end":1655.1815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1661.6109687500002,"end":1662.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1672.9509687500001,"end":1673.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1673.8115937500002,"end":1687.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1686.8222187500003,"end":1691.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1689.8934687500002,"end":1693.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1694.16284375,"end":1694.7872187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1694.6353437500002,"end":1698.4659687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1694.7872187500002,"end":1696.9472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1698.7359687500002,"end":1699.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1699.4278437500002,"end":1702.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1701.33471875,"end":1703.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1703.1234687500003,"end":1709.1478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1709.75534375,"end":1712.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1713.0628437500002,"end":1716.0665937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1714.9359687500003,"end":1717.8722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1717.36596875,"end":1721.8040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1718.8172187500002,"end":1719.8634687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1720.16721875,"end":1722.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1722.27659375,"end":1722.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1723.3734687500003,"end":1730.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1725.1453437500002,"end":1725.4828437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1730.15721875,"end":1733.4815937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1733.9203437500003,"end":1734.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1735.1859687500003,"end":1740.2484687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1740.5015937500002,"end":1743.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1743.79221875,"end":1753.1409687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1753.6978437500002,"end":1759.4859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1760.3297187500002,"end":1760.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1761.0047187500002,"end":1763.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1763.5528437500002,"end":1767.0797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1767.6197187500002,"end":1769.9315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1770.6234687500003,"end":1772.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1772.49659375,"end":1774.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1774.2178437500002,"end":1776.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1776.7997187500002,"end":1779.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1779.5503437500001,"end":1780.5965937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1780.8665937500002,"end":1784.3597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1784.9672187500003,"end":1788.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1788.51096875,"end":1790.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1790.2490937500002,"end":1796.5940937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1796.7797187500003,"end":1797.8765937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1798.21409375,"end":1799.9859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1800.18846875,"end":1801.1165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1801.47096875,"end":1804.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1804.5084687500002,"end":1804.9472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1805.7572187500002,"end":1806.8709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1807.3097187500002,"end":1808.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1809.1659687500003,"end":1810.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1811.30909375,"end":1813.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1813.8740937500002,"end":1814.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1814.97096875,"end":1815.5615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1815.8484687500002,"end":1817.3165937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1817.5359687500002,"end":1819.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1819.7128437500003,"end":1820.6747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1820.9278437500002,"end":1824.6065937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1824.9609687500001,"end":1825.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1826.4122187500002,"end":1830.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1830.7490937500002,"end":1833.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1834.2759687500002,"end":1836.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1836.7059687500002,"end":1839.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1839.6759687500003,"end":1840.9415937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1841.38034375,"end":1844.4515937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1844.7215937500002,"end":1847.0672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1847.72534375,"end":1852.0453437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1852.4840937500003,"end":1853.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1853.8678437500002,"end":1856.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1856.4665937500001,"end":1857.5297187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1857.9515937500003,"end":1861.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1862.1365937500002,"end":1863.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1863.4022187500002,"end":1865.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1865.7815937500002,"end":1867.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1867.5703437500001,"end":1869.8653437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1870.3378437500003,"end":1875.3497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1874.87721875,"end":1875.2484687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1875.8222187500003,"end":1877.7797187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1878.4040937500001,"end":1880.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1880.8509687500002,"end":1902.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1902.99096875,"end":1905.2859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1905.5559687500001,"end":1905.8428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1906.8215937500001,"end":1907.5303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1908.4247187500002,"end":1912.1878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1911.3778437500002,"end":1914.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1914.9722187500001,"end":1915.0228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1915.1915937500003,"end":1921.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1923.7640937500003,"end":1936.9434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1924.1353437500002,"end":1924.6922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1934.0240937500002,"end":1940.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1938.7659687500002,"end":1949.7853437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1951.6247187500003,"end":1958.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1956.0290937500001,"end":1958.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1958.3747187500003,"end":1958.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1958.40846875,"end":1958.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1958.5097187500003,"end":1958.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1958.6447187500003,"end":1958.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1958.81346875,"end":1959.4715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1959.4715937500002,"end":1959.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1966.6265937500002,"end":1966.7447187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1967.0147187500002,"end":1967.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1968.4659687500002,"end":1973.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1973.9165937500002,"end":1974.5072187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1975.13159375,"end":1978.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1978.9790937500002,"end":1985.0372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1985.9822187500001,"end":1990.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1990.8253437500002,"end":1992.3778437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1992.7322187500001,"end":1993.5928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1994.4365937500002,"end":1994.9428437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1995.0609687500003,"end":2002.1822187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2002.5872187500001,"end":2007.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2008.7128437500003,"end":2009.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2009.7422187500001,"end":2011.0753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2011.8178437500003,"end":2013.3197187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2014.07909375,"end":2032.8609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2033.6034687500003,"end":2034.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2034.76784375,"end":2038.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2039.2734687500001,"end":2042.4122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2042.5978437500003,"end":2043.6609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2044.5384687500002,"end":2049.1453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2049.43221875,"end":2052.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2052.90846875,"end":2055.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2056.16534375,"end":2056.6209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2057.78534375,"end":2059.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2059.96221875,"end":2061.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2061.5147187500006,"end":2062.3584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2062.7634687500004,"end":2063.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2063.70846875,"end":2069.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2069.80034375,"end":2074.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2074.96409375,"end":2077.9509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2078.64284375,"end":2093.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2093.52659375,"end":2098.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2099.21346875,"end":2099.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2099.98971875,"end":2100.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2100.36096875,"end":2100.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2100.39471875,"end":2105.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2105.7947187500004,"end":2111.1609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2111.4140937500006,"end":2114.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2114.14784375,"end":2118.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2119.1765937500004,"end":2154.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2154.4453437500006,"end":2154.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2155.00221875,"end":2155.5084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2158.93409375,"end":2159.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2161.75221875,"end":2162.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2162.3428437500006,"end":2163.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2163.6590937500005,"end":2166.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2166.4434687500006,"end":2169.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2169.59909375,"end":2169.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2172.48471875,"end":2172.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2172.97409375,"end":2174.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2174.83034375,"end":2177.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2177.4628437500005,"end":2185.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2185.25909375,"end":2205.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2185.4278437500006,"end":2186.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2188.14471875,"end":2188.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2189.7478437500004,"end":2192.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2194.60784375,"end":2194.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2194.96221875,"end":2195.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2197.7128437500005,"end":2200.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2200.51409375,"end":2202.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2204.42909375,"end":2205.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2205.93096875,"end":2207.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2207.7703437500004,"end":2221.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2221.2872187500006,"end":2225.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2225.03346875,"end":2225.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2226.3834687500002,"end":2226.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2226.4003437500005,"end":2227.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2228.05409375,"end":2235.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2235.46221875,"end":2235.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2236.13721875,"end":2240.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2240.57534375,"end":2252.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2253.8222187500005,"end":2255.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2255.9315937500005,"end":2256.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2257.04534375,"end":2257.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2258.19284375,"end":2260.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2260.8759687500005,"end":2260.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2261.1797187500006,"end":2261.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2261.97284375,"end":2282.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2264.9090937500005,"end":2266.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2270.19096875,"end":2271.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2271.01784375,"end":2271.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2271.03471875,"end":2273.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2273.8190937500003,"end":2278.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2278.49346875,"end":2281.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2282.5097187500005,"end":2283.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2284.16346875,"end":2287.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2284.63596875,"end":2285.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2287.0322187500005,"end":2287.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2287.65659375,"end":2287.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2287.67346875,"end":2287.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2287.90971875,"end":2292.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2291.52096875,"end":2293.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2293.4278437500006,"end":2293.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2293.7822187500005,"end":2294.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2294.11971875,"end":2297.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2297.2078437500004,"end":2297.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2297.71409375,"end":2300.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2300.6503437500005,"end":2305.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2305.2403437500006,"end":2314.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2315.5847187500003,"end":2333.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2333.9784687500005,"end":2341.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2342.4159687500005,"end":2343.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2343.83346875,"end":2350.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2347.07346875,"end":2350.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2351.1572187500005,"end":2357.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2356.23659375,"end":2357.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2357.9747187500006,"end":2358.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2358.0253437500005,"end":2358.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2358.97034375,"end":2359.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2359.0378437500003,"end":2359.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2359.96596875,"end":2360.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2360.03346875,"end":2360.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2360.9784687500005,"end":2361.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2361.0290937500004,"end":2361.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2361.97409375,"end":2362.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2362.02471875,"end":2362.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2362.9022187500004,"end":2362.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2362.9528437500003,"end":2367.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2368.6397187500006,"end":2369.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2371.3903437500003,"end":2375.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2375.45721875,"end":2379.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2379.3553437500004,"end":2398.1034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2398.42409375,"end":2401.8497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2403.19971875,"end":2406.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2406.99659375,"end":2409.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2409.8484687500004,"end":2410.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2409.9834687500006,"end":2410.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2410.43909375,"end":2411.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2411.68784375,"end":2411.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2411.9072187500005,"end":2413.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2413.07159375,"end":2414.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2413.8815937500003,"end":2414.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2414.26971875,"end":2414.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2414.4384687500005,"end":2414.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2414.99534375,"end":2415.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2415.43409375,"end":2415.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2415.97409375,"end":2416.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2419.4334687500004,"end":2421.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2421.0703437500006,"end":2421.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2427.48284375,"end":2428.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2428.07346875,"end":2429.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2435.0428437500004,"end":2436.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2437.2028437500003,"end":2437.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2440.7128437500005,"end":2441.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2441.59034375,"end":2441.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2441.6072187500004,"end":2442.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2443.6490937500002,"end":2445.0497187500005}],"whisperx":[{"start":309.861,"end":337.062,"text":"好 謝謝我們協商正式開始在這邊主席來報告黨團協商我們現在協商國民黨黨團有關公糧收購案建請院會作成決議農業部應調整公糧收購價格由每公斤26元調整至每公斤34元提高農民基本利潤"},{"start":337.982,"end":364.002,"text":"．因應近年物價劇烈波動．導致務農成本增加．落實照顧農民之政策．以及臺灣民眾黨所提的修正動議．要求農業部因綜合考量各項成本．將公糧收購價格至每公斤26元．調升5元以上．並加速提升整體雜糧種植面積計畫．"},{"start":369.007,"end":388.878,"text":"國民黨提案及修正動議於113年5月14日第一會期第13次院會決議並同交付黨團協商並由國民黨團負責召集協商今天協商一併列入討論首先我們請農業部陳部長來做報告"},{"start":399.89,"end":421.595,"text":"主席、各位委員那農業部針對委員提案的部分國民黨短暫提案的部分增加的部分我們認為他這樣的一個調整是不可行的那因為整個的一個對農業的一個照顧就是對農民的一個照顧有非常多的方式如果只透過公糧的一個價格的調整"},{"start":422.915,"end":442.95,"text":"打擊到整個的水稻的一個產業從過往的經驗這樣的一個提升當年度有效但是它後續的面積就會提高反而會造成稻農的收益反而不會因此而增加所以我們認為說這樣的一個提案對於整個稻作的產業影響反而會更大"},{"start":445.802,"end":470.028,"text":"好 謝謝部長的這個說明我想你用打擊兩個字我們會聽取各個委員大家寶貴的意見首先來丁薛忠委員感謝主席再來感謝主席很謝謝你剛剛鍾立雄有沒有提啊還沒有丁薛忠委員發言完我們請張家俊委員再請許正義委員謝謝感謝主席"},{"start":472.708,"end":479.331,"text":"當中國的修行現在正開始修行我們以前聽到很多農民的聲音農藥企業、肥料企業、材料企業、文化企業現在連修行的工資也都企業"},{"start":493.778,"end":500.142,"text":"為何政府對農民的信仰的請求：要讓農民安全的過程：為何農業部來換對農民的工業價格的企業：給農民一個幾分的過程：你們就沒辦法：為何你們要這樣決定：我只想說"},{"start":517.284,"end":520.587,"text":"否定,我們坐在觀光室．民間有良好的風態．了解到農民的心聲．民間有去到專科．知道說,農民為了要提供．我們全國這個東西安全．的過分．他們辛苦的付出．"},{"start":534.66,"end":539.483,"text":"我們只要來問國民：一塊塊說：讓他們說當這個修立：可以經過更加安定：讓他們的生活：可以過療更加好當過：我們只希望這樣而已：為什麼你們要來反對：這個國分：希望說國長：你們不可以坐在觀光室：你們去那裡：來看到日頭和農民："},{"start":562.388,"end":566.269,"text":"看不到他們在土耳其農民的情況伊雄謝謝"},{"start":587.641,"end":595.266,"text":"部長我想你的立場大家都非常理解就是說你不希望工糧收購價格提高民進黨在選舉的時候一直講說農民就是他們心中最軟的一塊一定會照顧農民原來這就是你要照顧農民的方式我們這10年來農業就業人口已經降低了7%"},{"start":609.495,"end":611.016,"text":"然後我們工糧價格收購已經13年沒有調整了今年的糧價已經是可能過去5年來最低新低每公斤不到10塊這就是你身為農業部長的一個政績"},{"start":627.796,"end":630.6,"text":"你覺得這樣合理嗎你覺得這樣子有在照顧農民嗎你對你的成績滿意嗎所以我真心覺得說像剛剛丁學中委員所講的肥料也起農企給然後還有這個人工也漲價"},{"start":643.078,"end":648.042,"text":"包括說秧苗也漲價：代耕費用也漲價全部都漲了只有公糧收購的價格沒有漲你覺得這合理嗎我們要照顧的是在最底層的這些辛苦他沒有辦法變化的這些農民我希望部長可以三思好好的為這些最基層的農民想一下說我們這一次公糧收購價格的提高"},{"start":670.2,"end":677.084,"text":"完全非常的合理而且只有提高8塊你要想說13年來工資漲幅是53.64%然後我們秧苗漲幅是43% 物價指數上漲超過15%上漲這麼多可以說是嚴重影響了農民的權益所以希望說農委會本於落實照顧農民可以來因應這個提高 謝謝"},{"start":698.818,"end":709.424,"text":"好 謝謝我也請部長江委員所說的你注意聽 注意聽謝謝 那我們接下來徐宇貞委員剛剛部長提到說徐宇貞委員 謝謝剛剛部長提到的說公糧收購的價格如果調漲的話可能會引起搶中我想部長可能有很大的這個迷思因為事實上我們這幾年來包括剛剛張家俊委員講的"},{"start":728.115,"end":734.159,"text":"物價各方面調漲．農藥、肥料成本上漲25%．農民耕種成不斷增加．所以從26條高到34．事實上對農民的耕種成本．是不夠的．根本不可能有搶種的問題．"},{"start":750.33,"end":772.412,"text":"所以我覺得若實照顧農民若實照顧弱勢的農民這應該是大家基本的共識而不是說因為擔心這個會搶這種或者擔心有什麼樣的問題而是應該真正面對農民的需求提高那13年來沒有調漲過成本也增加了這麼多那為什麼不用這樣的一個方式來真正的弱勢照顧農民請部長要三思"},{"start":775.334,"end":775.595,"text":"陳昌明委員"},{"start":792.21,"end":808.52,"text":"第二,如果調整價格的話,很多人會種到糧我再請教你一個問題,你們雜糧也大概十幾年都沒有漲價所以你要改變這個,你雜糧的價格把它調高一點,大家都會努力去種雜糧的種子菜"},{"start":811.041,"end":830.062,"text":"工糧自然會減少你兩邊都不漲只是為了說物價的穩定怕通貨膨脹這個時代已經面臨著所有農民走到哪個地方大家都要求工糧要上漲漲多漲少大家可以協商但是你永遠記得一點你雜糧沒有"},{"start":832.665,"end":843.31,"text":"在上漲的時候咱倆的一個收穫的那個效益不一定會比種到了好所以你兩方面只能提起一方面"},{"start":847.379,"end":869.394,"text":"雜糧漲．工糧漲．我相信農民自行會調整．不會由你擔心的問題產生的．其實這一個原則．我相信工糧收購的價格上漲．也會帶動雜糧．尤其雜糧你把它提高．種的人就更多了．自然會平衡 謝謝好 謝謝陳昭明我們接下來 莊瑞雄書記長"},{"start":872.12,"end":896.861,"text":"謝謝主席主席本來是一點所以鐵渣召開我們有經過大家同意其他委員當然就會有經過大家同意而且今天在剛開始就已經有請黨團去通知經過大家同意謝謝大家喔大家是什麼意思我們有經過黨團通知大家經過同意是啦是啦這個會議結束之後通知大家我是跟你表明一下感謝我們沒有搞錯這個關係請發言謝謝"},{"start":898.723,"end":900.185,"text":"這個農業部其實應該很清楚整個工糧收購提高這個會不會造成供需的一個失調我相信從過去不管是誰執政"},{"start":914.94,"end":931.382,"text":"有很嚴肅的探討這樣的一個問題以現在來看的話你目前是超產嘛那我本息是很擔心啦就是說你如果去提高以後啊那對於短期上你看到效益可是長期來看的話"},{"start":932.964,"end":945.258,"text":"那變成說大家提高種植稻米的一個意願以後真的會壓縮到其他雜糧作物的種植一個意願這個跟整個政策是不是有違背的一個地方以我屏東來講的話"},{"start":947.007,"end":970.471,"text":"我當然希望說農民有更高的一個收益可是我們確實是為了要確保整個農民他的長期的一個收益你說糧價波動你現在來看的話你繳交工糧現在是佔10%的一個總數那你提高收購價格增加整個種植稻米的一個誘因以後那你其他的民糧農民的價格變成會下跌"},{"start":974.926,"end":990.505,"text":"我部長也特別要去考慮到這一點那至於其他可能大家比較沒有去考慮的說那你整個水資源的一個分配你整個稻米的一個種植你每一個公每一公頃來看的話你就需要1.2萬噸那大家集中種稻米"},{"start":990.765,"end":1011.002,"text":"那你水資源的使用一定會更多這個部分重新再以後要重新去配置那你真的也會傷腦筋那對於整個產業的平衡跟國家糧食的一個自主權你像譬如說你雜糧類你都像玉米、高粱跟大豆臺灣的自主率只有一成"},{"start":1012.148,"end":1036.781,"text":"那你先讀後水稻的影響你產業的平衡也會造成臺灣整個糧食自主權的被限縮也容易被這整個國際價格的一個浮動去影響到這個整個臺灣物價的一個平衡所以本席倒認為說倒也不是說用去提高單一用提高的價格就可以來解決這個問題所以我也請其他的委員一併大家來做思考"},{"start":1038.131,"end":1039.272,"text":"國務大臣張綺楷議員國務大臣張綺楷議員國務大臣張綺楷"},{"start":1060.284,"end":1074.953,"text":"我是覺得部長在做這個決定的時候今天討論這個議題是非常關係到很多的農民的尤其是連長的農民我覺得要好好用多用心去想一下這個事情好不好我們是說已經賺不價了就是你這段時間你去看你用很務實跟科學的那個數據去看這13年沒調13年看物價起價起多少"},{"start":1084.437,"end":1111.313,"text":"均供價都在調．農民這邊不能調你覺得人工．人工也是漲了．肥料也是漲了．所以農業的資產都漲了．現在沒有要求說一定要調．非常非常高你像我們臺灣民眾黨．我們有初步的精算完之後．我們只有提說．現在一公斤是20塊．我們就建議說至少要調到5塊錢以上當然國民黨可能認為應該要高一點點．這個我們可以來討論"},{"start":1113.574,"end":1131.11,"text":"剛剛有委員講得很好啊調多調少大家是可以去調論的可是就是說確實我們的農民碰到問題我覺得我們要將心比心去幫他們解決問題其實剛才石榮講的中委員也有他的理論點不過在經濟委員會這麼久我聽起來臺北那些包括民進黨的立委起來都說要調是不是"},{"start":1133.092,"end":1146.015,"text":"我覺得這應該是比較朝野有共識的地方請大家多幫幫我們的不只是體恤農民幫幫我們農民這個農業的產業裡面也需要一些有經驗的人留下來說實在現在有些農民 我在那邊整個有人不想再做了"},{"start":1148.188,"end":1174.079,"text":"我把它探加,這個不是只有農民的生計的問題那個農業以農立國當然現在變工商業社會,還有一些技術也要繼續下去好不好,我們都往這方面想一下好,謝謝張旗開委員我們就請部長,因為你先坐著沒關係國民黨的提案是希望增加8塊民眾黨提案是5塊以上"},{"start":1174.912,"end":1193.924,"text":"那剛剛也有委員表示還有其他的方案那部長你剛剛所提的有一點本席還是要說明就是說會衝擊到農民我想這樣的言語我們沒有辦法接受因為包括部長你本身"},{"start":1194.744,"end":1211.377,"text":"以及我們不管藍綠白的委員大家都是一起要好好的怎麼樣去照顧農民包括今天我們在經濟委員會所提出的觀光人力的問題這些都是大家要非常冷靜理性的去討論而且我相信"},{"start":1212.257,"end":1231.913,"text":"藍綠白委員全力支持我們所有的農業因為台灣以農立國這個是台灣最重要的寶貝也是最重要的根基所以在這樣的情況之下呢13年沒有漲所以在剛剛所有的委員發言的時候我特別請部長您詳細的來聽而且您也詳細的我看你詳細的在記錄所以我們現在請你再做發表謝謝"},{"start":1245.396,"end":1266.729,"text":"主席、各位委員我剛才就是剛才各位委員的發言我都有非常清楚的記錄我想做幾個部分的一個回應我覺得大家都有共識的就是說其實我們要農業部本身的職責就是照顧所有的農民這個我想大家都都是一定同意的所以農業部在思考在這邊提案的過程中"},{"start":1267.989,"end":1289.903,"text":"的一些整個的對我們整個產業的一個是不是能夠真正的提高我們的整個的所有的農民的一個收益但不但不只是限於所謂的重道的人因為公糧收購是目前所有的作物裡面唯一是由政府保障收購的其他都沒有全世界只有我們台灣這第一個部分第二個部分是"},{"start":1290.883,"end":1318.928,"text":"講到生產成本的提高絕對也不是種稻作的成本提高了其他的所有的作物都提高了那相對的如果說我們僅處理工糧的部分的時候那對於其他種植其他的作物來講那他情何以堪那相對的就是說我們考慮工糧收購的時候對不起喔我插話一下部長這裡都有錄音錄影喔你這樣的言語喔未來很多農民沒有辦法接受"},{"start":1320.885,"end":1332.535,"text":"我們今天討論的是稻米的這一塊你把全部的卡來這邊好像中稻的人要求如此是有罪的這樣子不好你應該是針對這個問題來討論好嗎然後提出你的方案我會提出一個方案的那相對的就是說我們"},{"start":1342.808,"end":1371.439,"text":"所提到的剛才所提到的這些委員這些建議當然沒有錯對稻農的收益來講以過去的經驗100年提高了3塊加2塊的工糧他在第三年當年民糧的價格提高了可是面積一定會提高提高的話產量就過剩我們現在目前稻米的產量就已經超過20萬噸了那已經有非常大的壓力了所以相對的我們認為就是說在整個的一個"},{"start":1373.6,"end":1397.814,"text":"讓稻農本身的收益提高應該還有其他的方法去促成而不是純粹只是提高工糧因為工糧只佔整個稻谷收穫裡面的30%剩下的70%都是產地的一些民糧在收購的如果說我們想辦法讓民糧的價格能夠提升的時候那同樣的對稻農的收益也是會提升的"},{"start":1398.455,"end":1409.775,"text":"這是我想農業部一直在從這方面去思考就是怎麼樣讓70%的這些民糧的收購的價格能夠提升所以我們思考了很多配套的措施"},{"start":1415.66,"end":1444.55,"text":"我們先讓他說完好嗎那相關的配套措施我們大概從整個稻米產業來講現在有太多的稻米就是稻米的品種它產量非常高但是它很不耐我們的現在的極端天候所以往往是產量很高但是品質並不好然後一旦遇到極端天候的時候它的產量就變得很低農民也會造成損失這是第一個所以我們第一個政策就是說我們會提高獎勵讓這些原本種"},{"start":1446.38,"end":1462.649,"text":"這些高產的這些品種而品質不好的品種能夠往優質的品種去走那第二個部分就是集團產區的契作他的價格就已經比我們的工糧收購還高就是大概26到29所以我們會第二個作為就是我們會鼓勵用"},{"start":1463.109,"end":1482.788,"text":"政策誘因去鼓勵讓這些農民能夠集合變成基準產業的栽培那第三個部分我們會在高血源線的部分去強化它的稻田轉作讓它本身透過節約獎勵來提高它的一個收入那最後的一個部分就是我們會在特別剛才有委員提到"},{"start":1483.829,"end":1505.521,"text":"一些雜糧轉做的部分如果說我們只處理工糧不處理雜糧的時候那會造成我們的所有的政策包括糧食安全會造成一些風險所以我們會針對主要是二級多的部分的轉做我們會加碼換句話說你不中到的一個獎勵那你不中到的獎勵最主要是讓我的產量"},{"start":1506.201,"end":1511.023,"text":"能夠維持到目前24萬公頃．以我們專業的計算．產量維持到24萬公頃．整個稻農收益提高．透過這種不重道的獎勵．鼓勵他去種植漢作、雜糧．一方面也照顧到．"},{"start":1530.069,"end":1545.602,"text":"這些種植雜糧的農民那一方面也因為種植雜糧的農民增加了以後道座的面積不會減少那這樣的話也能夠提高我們種道的人的一個收益那我們說我們希望說我們通過一級就是就是"},{"start":1546.724,"end":1566.586,"text":"集團產區二轉就是轉座的部分然後大概這三年之內我們一定至少能夠提高整個工糧大概3塊以上然後透過再加上我們的不重道獎勵的部分以配合的下去的話我相信農民的收益一定是絕對是能夠提升的而且也同時能夠兼顧其他產業的一個農民的一個權益"},{"start":1569.696,"end":1590.703,"text":"謝謝主委部長的說明部長我們今天再講一次是針對於稻穀收購的價格你現在的回答是說請他們不要去種稻他可以得到更好的這個收入這個邏輯有一點奇怪好 明天見那莊瑞雄委員再來就莊嘉斌委員"},{"start":1591.752,"end":1601.679,"text":"柏庭我來給你簡單的請教這朝野協商也不用這麼緊張就是說想看有沒有辦法沒有我剛剛你聽到的部分我以為那個現在繳交公糧是幾%到底是10%還是30%整體來講30%是繳交公糧70%是繳交民糧這樣有一個大問題你像譬如說我繳交公糧假設你把它提高的話你會不會影響到那70%民糧的部分"},{"start":1621.993,"end":1635.368,"text":"對 這個就是我們所擔心的就是當你提高當年他們為了買稻米當年的78的民糧也會提高可是相對的當你一提高的話大家覺得說種到好賺的時候就有很多人"},{"start":1636.85,"end":1651.231,"text":"去變成種植水稻當你產量高的時候你公糧的收購是有限的到時候70%的民糧的量會變多以後它的價格反而不會跟公糧一樣反而會更低所以嘛我要問的就是說"},{"start":1651.912,"end":1667.966,"text":"你畢竟繳交公糧的部分是少數啦我比較擔心的是說你現在提供提高當然大家都希望農民很開心啊收益會更好啊但問題說你30%的你到底有沒有辦法去確保你38的繳交公糧38的它的價錢去提高以後不衝擊到78的"},{"start":1673.01,"end":1690.885,"text":"民糧的部分對這是我們要考慮的就是說當你如果純粹提高工糧收購的時候它勢必會衝擊到70%的民糧那民糧你如果說稻穀產量是足夠的話民糧的價格它是不會拉的不會提高的啊我民糧如果這個時候種植面積再增加的話它更增高對那它的價格會更低"},{"start":1694.189,"end":1696.892,"text":"我印象中是通知一點提早一點前來怎麼現在已經講到好像要做結論了"},{"start":1709.944,"end":1718.49,"text":"是不是主席在說明下文什麼我們本來是通知一點我們在今天的會議當中都有說明是在會議進行中已經有說明也請各黨團去通知謝謝請發言好來那個主席不用這麼煩啦請發言你來我們是我們都很尊重你來我是覺得部長說的一個重點"},{"start":1730.299,"end":1759.074,"text":"民眾、農民,我們都希望農民的收益提高不然長農,長老的、長十年的我們都希望他們收益提高這是我們的目的,盡量錄我們不斷在幫農民的收益講話那主席說今天我們只處理我們的工糧收購價格我要修正一下我們在處理的是我們各農業縣農民的收益簽一法動全身能不能都同時被照顧都同時被提升這是重點"},{"start":1761.054,"end":1781.053,"text":"我們不要說挖東牆補西牆：農業生產市場機制：有它的一套邏輯表面上我們看說：例如說：一年的香蕉好價：農民就一直種香蕉：香蕉才要一直賣：但是像今年我們就在煩惱了：香蕉種這麼多：農民就在說這沒有風態：我看這下就白癡了"},{"start":1785.051,"end":1803.739,"text":"所以我們國內的農民他不只在種植上他要承擔天災的風險在產銷秩序上他要承受市場價格波動的風險那市場價格有它的規律我們人為的影響有它的限度所以我今天你補正要講的我就是要邀約講一點你現在"},{"start":1805.802,"end":1825.642,"text":"公牛你切到會收工的介紹因為我們屏東都有這樣紅包的啊現在你如果說像剛才在說的說 現在如果說公牛你介紹完 大家都來請好啊 大家都來請 你每年都要收喔有沒有這樣的規定我只要來加入 你們會不會繼續收我量鎮價你會不會繼續收如果你沒有"},{"start":1826.423,"end":1846.923,"text":"你介紹旗下館,輸贏的介紹旗下館：大家都來種：種一個美女,我們幫忙：大家農民都收購：你農藥補你怎麼省錢：所以我要說,你一個公糧的收購價格：不能只看稻農：你來看屏東,如果中農而已：就很多農民：啊農民要種什麼種什麼：他會煮油啊"},{"start":1847.759,"end":1868.742,"text":"人家我就跟韓債說你現在就政策你就不可以換白銀：你政行到你不可以換政策：這不可能嘛所以說我希望說主席我作準中理的但你說的重點不是公牛的收工介紹而已而考慮到全體不只是民東關全體農民他們收到的這個企業介紹的普通甚至影響到人民來收益這點普通的話你要先做個解說"},{"start":1870.927,"end":1898.114,"text":"好 謝謝我主席台在這邊再說明我也非常尊重每一位委員中間一邊委員我們現在是黨我們是在做協商那今天協商有題目有題目當然每一個類別我們都關心我說藍綠白的委員都關心我們的農業但是我們今天是朝野協商我們在協商是針對公糧到苦收購的議題我在這邊給你說明好 謝謝"},{"start":1900.274,"end":1903.436,"text":"部長 我強烈質疑你的說法因為現在你說民間收購一公斤不到十塊一公斤不到十塊欸"},{"start":1923.903,"end":1936.894,"text":"我強烈質疑你的說法你現在說不提高工糧收購價格否則民糧會跟著提高那你這個立場不是在保護農民你是在保護糧商欸你是不是站在糧商的立場我沒有辦法接受你這樣的一個質詢就是說我們的政策我不是質詢我是在提出說法而且你也沒有現在也不能回答我我現在就是強烈質疑你剛才的說法完全沒有站在稻農的立場而是站在糧商的立場"},{"start":1951.91,"end":1954.573,"text":"謝謝主席我想公糧保價收購這個案子其實在地方討論很久"},{"start":1975.412,"end":1993.29,"text":"雖然我的選區來自農業區但是基本上我個人的立場我是認為過去的幾年之間農業部對於保價收購這件事情做了很多不同政策面向的努力我們應該給予肯定而且我想"},{"start":1994.448,"end":2012.784,"text":"不只全台灣,全世界也沒有所謂的工糧保價收購這件事如果對於繳交工糧用保價收購那其他的農產品怎麼辦?要不要也要保價收購?所以我覺得"},{"start":2014.527,"end":2032.581,"text":"農業部對於不保價收購但是對於如何提高糧食安全如何對於提高稻農農民的收入其實做了各種不同面向的政策但我希望就是說如果我們不提高工糧收購的時候其實農業部應該可以提出更"},{"start":2033.646,"end":2040.511,"text":"不同的對地補貼．不耕作稻米的補償．其他的補貼政策．甚至鼓勵種雜糧的政策．都應該讓各地區的農民瞭解．稻米的"},{"start":2060.274,"end":2073.57,"text":"產量過剩這是事實如何讓其他讓稻農可以去轉做其他的五穀雜糧我覺得我們在這一方面的輔導其實更相形重要那你今天提出來"},{"start":2075.014,"end":2098.549,"text":"保價收購加8塊加10塊能夠真正解決問題嗎不行那你會把所有的這些農業基金的錢全部用在這個花掉100多億是用在工糧收購上面那你對其他的農民對其他的農產是合理的嗎是公平的嗎我覺得這個可能大家要去更深一層的去思考"},{"start":2099.289,"end":2118.226,"text":"好 謝謝各位同仁非常的感謝大家在中午時間我們不休息繼續協商重點就是大家不分藍綠白行政部門大家都希望讓我們農民更有好的生活經濟價值可以提升所以聽到大家充分的討論那行政部門的意見跟"},{"start":2120.548,"end":2131.114,"text":"這個兩個黨團所提出的委員所提出的議案似乎還有很大的差距所以容許主席臺做這樣子的一個決議本日協商仍無法達成共識國民黨黨團提案以及臺灣民眾黨黨團所提修正動議均保留送請院會處理那也請院會處理前請農業部"},{"start":2142.64,"end":2155.347,"text":"：基於農為國本：以農立國：落實照顧農民的政策：思考公糧收購的價格請您完整的去思考我們請他去在我們送優惠出去之後要協商前請他提方案"},{"start":2172.923,"end":2201.102,"text":"好 請說主席 不好意思齁因為我們今天的協商沒有共識對要嘛就是再一次協商要嘛就是送院長協商對那您剛剛的裁示是直接送院會處理沒有沒有 院會就是院長一定要先協商所以你 你要講清楚啊我們立法院的規矩我們通常都會講送院長主持黨團協商嘛那您剛剛這樣講的講法是說直接送院會處理喔院長 你不要緊張 謝謝那你就直接送邱老闆去講嘛"},{"start":2202.403,"end":2225.359,"text":"好 你還是要尊重一下我們的意見嘛請說第二個 今天的協商的意見不同但是我們並沒有同意就是公糧收購的價格要去做調整所以您剛剛的裁示是說就公糧收購的價格這件事情要去做討論這個跟我們剛剛的意見表達基本上是不太一樣的嘛"},{"start":2226.442,"end":2252.316,"text":"好 我說明喔因為我們一般會請送請院會處理就是院長會召集協商這是我們的規矩那你如果還要指名院長協商院長就是院會嘛我們的文字就是這樣一定會院長協商所以我們就保留送院會處理就是要送院會之前一定是院長協商這是我們的規矩"},{"start":2253.871,"end":2277.226,"text":"如果你要加入 送請院長處理這個邏輯很奇怪 是院會處理那個 我覺得那個原則要講清楚不然送請院長 召集朝野協商因為你如果只有寫送院會處理的話那我很擔心你們婦婚期總召你的案子也是一樣 你協商也是一樣送院會處理啦"},{"start":2279.548,"end":2280.769,"text":"宋祺 宋院長招集黨團協商"},{"start":2297.808,"end":2314.725,"text":"你這樣子寫細項太奇怪了啦好那謝謝那我們就送院會處理那剛剛還有邱議員所說的因為我們今天的議案是針對公糧收購所以我也充分尊重大家也就是"},{"start":2315.686,"end":2341.474,"text":"以農為國本．以農立國．落實照顧農民的政策．思考公糧收購的價格我們沒有訂什麼就針對今天的議題由行政部門去提出在院長協商的時候大家再去做討論好不好對主席我是不是可以建議一下不要用思考公糧收購價格用思考公糧收購政策"},{"start":2343.902,"end":2368.744,"text":"因為你用價格就是表示你一定介紹有關可是今天我們兩個政黨所提是價格問題邱委員我們今天的議案是價格我們要口尾都一致啊但是你現在我們要協商我們要講的是政策問題啊不是我們今天所針對今天兩黨所提的議案啊對不對"},{"start":2371.431,"end":2398.728,"text":"是針對今天的議案啦然後再去做協商啦好啦來那就今天的這個協商呢本席再次說明本日協商仍無法達成共識國民黨黨提案以及臺灣民眾黨黨團所提案修正動議均保留送院會處理那院會處理前我們請農業部針對於農為國本以農立國落實照顧農民政策思考公糧收購價格"},{"start":2400.789,"end":2401.43,"text":"謝謝 現在上會"},{"start":2440.328,"end":2440.368,"text":"啊!啊!"}]}},{"id":"16046","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16046","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b73ade72829c64ed53741711f1205b95f63b917443c8985e627684c85f64cd7bd4be71ccd4f6cc005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-27T12:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團朝野黨團協商（事由：本院經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等20人、委員邱議瑩等19人分別擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」、委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」、委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-27T12:00:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T13:06:00+08:00","duration":3960,"影片長度":"01:06:00","委員發言時間":"12:00:00 - 13:06:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2113.59096875,"end":2113.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2114.4853437500005,"end":2117.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2119.0078437500006,"end":2119.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2120.76284375,"end":2121.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2341.7409687500003,"end":2342.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2400.95534375,"end":2406.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2405.2078437500004,"end":2405.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2406.2878437500003,"end":2406.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2406.55784375,"end":2415.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2416.6153437500006,"end":2421.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2422.2684687500005,"end":2425.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2426.3184687500006,"end":2430.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2430.4697187500005,"end":2436.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2436.76409375,"end":2439.0928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2439.4978437500004,"end":2442.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2443.4297187500006,"end":2447.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2448.0534687500003,"end":2448.3740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2448.6609687500004,"end":2452.9472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2453.09909375,"end":2457.5878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2458.26284375,"end":2459.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2460.67596875,"end":2461.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2462.19471875,"end":2464.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2464.2197187500005,"end":2465.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2465.33346875,"end":2472.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2472.5897187500004,"end":2474.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2475.40784375,"end":2476.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2476.70721875,"end":2482.5290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2483.64284375,"end":2488.4353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2488.5703437500006,"end":2490.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2490.27471875,"end":2495.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2496.2147187500004,"end":2497.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2497.6659687500005,"end":2503.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2503.70721875,"end":2511.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2511.68909375,"end":2525.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2526.60659375,"end":2532.2597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2532.39471875,"end":2539.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2539.65096875,"end":2544.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2544.6122187500005,"end":2559.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2560.5759687500004,"end":2561.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2561.45346875,"end":2567.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2569.5028437500005,"end":2572.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2573.31659375,"end":2574.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2574.4303437500002,"end":2576.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2577.78846875,"end":2580.4209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2580.8934687500005,"end":2585.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2585.85471875,"end":2592.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2592.48659375,"end":2628.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2629.84784375,"end":2661.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2662.63596875,"end":2680.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2681.2490937500006,"end":2688.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2688.37034375,"end":2699.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2701.0097187500005,"end":2703.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2704.2497187500003,"end":2710.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2710.7803437500006,"end":2721.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2722.1034687500005,"end":2724.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2724.53346875,"end":2735.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2736.41346875,"end":2739.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2742.9440937500003,"end":2780.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2780.94659375,"end":2805.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2805.34784375,"end":2805.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2805.4997187500003,"end":2805.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2806.61346875,"end":2808.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2808.55409375,"end":2811.0684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2811.4734687500004,"end":2857.5253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2857.7784687500007,"end":2886.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2888.77784375,"end":2893.7559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2894.98784375,"end":2903.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2904.67409375,"end":2906.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2907.2559687500006,"end":2909.6690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2910.88409375,"end":2912.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2912.82471875,"end":2913.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2914.09034375,"end":2916.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2918.05596875,"end":2918.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2920.3678437500002,"end":2921.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2922.15659375,"end":2927.0672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2927.75909375,"end":2929.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2929.8347187500003,"end":2932.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2933.36159375,"end":2936.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2937.59721875,"end":2939.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2940.6178437500002,"end":2945.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2946.1865937500006,"end":2951.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2952.1434687500005,"end":2953.3584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2953.7803437500006,"end":2954.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2955.2147187500004,"end":2956.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2957.4928437500002,"end":2959.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2960.26034375,"end":2961.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2961.5934687500003,"end":2963.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2963.7028437500003,"end":2964.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2964.78284375,"end":2966.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2967.8878437500007,"end":2968.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2969.3053437500002,"end":2971.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2973.0515937500004,"end":2974.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2975.4647187500004,"end":2976.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2978.2322187500004,"end":2979.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2980.98284375,"end":2981.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2982.3497187500006,"end":2983.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2983.8347187500003,"end":2984.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2986.70346875,"end":2988.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2989.67346875,"end":2990.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2990.8378437500005,"end":2991.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2991.78284375,"end":2992.5759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2994.0272187500004,"end":2997.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2997.68909375,"end":2999.0222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2999.9334687500004,"end":3000.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3001.28346875,"end":3002.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3003.83159375,"end":3006.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3007.2909687500005,"end":3010.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3010.76721875,"end":3011.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3012.3534687500005,"end":3015.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3016.47096875,"end":3016.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3017.4834687500006,"end":3022.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3023.5753437500007,"end":3024.7565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3025.4315937500005,"end":3026.5284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3027.2372187500005,"end":3030.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3031.67534375,"end":3034.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3035.75909375,"end":3041.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3042.1378437500007,"end":3046.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3047.8415937500004,"end":3048.1453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3048.6178437500002,"end":3049.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3050.5753437500007,"end":3052.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3053.49471875,"end":3055.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3056.0934687500003,"end":3058.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3059.2490937500006,"end":3059.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3060.22784375,"end":3061.3584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3061.6959687500002,"end":3062.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3063.7040937500005,"end":3064.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3065.5603437500004,"end":3071.6690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3072.22596875,"end":3072.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3073.98096875,"end":3074.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3075.9890937500004,"end":3077.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3079.16159375,"end":3079.6678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3080.1065937500007,"end":3081.6084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3082.70534375,"end":3086.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3087.64971875,"end":3091.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3091.44659375,"end":3093.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3093.3365937500002,"end":3093.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3094.41659375,"end":3096.0703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3096.99846875,"end":3099.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3099.69846875,"end":3100.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3101.63909375,"end":3102.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3102.5840937500006,"end":3109.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3109.7559687500006,"end":3113.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3114.3122187500003,"end":3116.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3116.2528437500005,"end":3118.9190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3119.40846875,"end":3123.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3123.5428437500004,"end":3125.7703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3127.37346875,"end":3128.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3129.95534375,"end":3133.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3134.49471875,"end":3136.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3137.2115937500002,"end":3140.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3141.17721875,"end":3144.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3144.50159375,"end":3152.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3152.68596875,"end":3157.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3161.17409375,"end":3163.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3165.7978437500005,"end":3171.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3172.3622187500005,"end":3200.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3200.35784375,"end":3200.6784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3200.96534375,"end":3208.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3208.9472187500005,"end":3213.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3213.5203437500004,"end":3218.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3219.0553437500002,"end":3249.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3249.90284375,"end":3260.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3261.17534375,"end":3275.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3276.17721875,"end":3282.9103437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3283.9734687500004,"end":3284.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3285.22221875,"end":3285.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3286.36971875,"end":3288.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3289.06971875,"end":3300.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3300.9159687500005,"end":3303.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3303.90284375,"end":3307.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3307.9022187500004,"end":3314.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3314.63534375,"end":3373.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3367.2178437500006,"end":3369.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3373.91721875,"end":3381.1397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3381.34221875,"end":3398.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3385.4765937500006,"end":3386.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3393.4415937500007,"end":3409.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3410.7384687500007,"end":3411.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3411.5653437500005,"end":3415.3790937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3411.6834687500004,"end":3412.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3416.47596875,"end":3417.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3418.4503437500007,"end":3421.3359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3422.8209687500002,"end":3424.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3422.85471875,"end":3423.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3423.52971875,"end":3423.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3423.78284375,"end":3426.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3427.37721875,"end":3428.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3438.9872187500005,"end":3440.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3441.41721875,"end":3441.9572187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3442.58159375,"end":3445.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3447.3572187500004,"end":3447.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3447.81284375,"end":3452.1328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3452.1834687500004,"end":3452.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3453.6178437500002,"end":3453.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3453.85409375,"end":3456.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3456.5372187500006,"end":3457.9209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3456.5709687500002,"end":3459.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3462.52784375,"end":3464.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3467.21909375,"end":3468.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3468.97409375,"end":3472.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3474.22221875,"end":3475.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3476.51721875,"end":3477.8503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3478.32284375,"end":3483.2334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3483.73971875,"end":3485.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3486.22034375,"end":3486.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3487.60409375,"end":3496.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3497.9315937500005,"end":3501.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3502.65659375,"end":3504.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3504.27659375,"end":3504.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3505.30596875,"end":3513.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3514.2665937500005,"end":3517.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3517.23659375,"end":3522.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3526.4334687500004,"end":3526.8722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3529.72409375,"end":3534.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3535.49534375,"end":3541.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3551.6953437500006,"end":3554.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3555.5597187500007,"end":3557.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3558.8165937500007,"end":3559.3397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3562.2422187500006,"end":3567.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3568.4522187500006,"end":3578.0709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3578.89784375,"end":3580.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3580.8553437500004,"end":3590.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3590.54159375,"end":3600.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3598.8103437500004,"end":3603.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3603.01221875,"end":3603.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3603.97409375,"end":3605.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3604.4803437500004,"end":3605.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3605.94846875,"end":3610.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3611.1628437500003,"end":3611.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3612.0065937500003,"end":3613.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3614.82471875,"end":3614.9259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3615.17909375,"end":3618.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3618.8409687500007,"end":3626.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3626.2997187500005,"end":3628.5440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3628.32471875,"end":3631.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3634.9903437500006,"end":3636.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3636.27284375,"end":3636.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3639.1415937500005,"end":3642.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3646.9209687500006,"end":3647.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3650.5322187500005,"end":3653.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3661.46721875,"end":3666.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3667.01909375,"end":3667.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3668.21721875,"end":3670.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3670.98471875,"end":3673.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3674.35971875,"end":3679.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3680.28284375,"end":3680.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3683.89409375,"end":3686.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3686.0372187500006,"end":3686.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3686.9147187500002,"end":3686.9315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3686.9315937500005,"end":3692.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3686.9990937500006,"end":3688.3322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3692.26409375,"end":3692.7872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3694.5928437500006,"end":3695.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3695.94284375,"end":3696.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3696.3309687500005,"end":3701.9334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3703.46909375,"end":3704.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3706.2197187500005,"end":3706.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3707.4853437500005,"end":3713.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3715.39971875,"end":3718.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3720.15846875,"end":3720.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3721.3397187500004,"end":3723.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3724.0059687500006,"end":3728.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3728.2247187500006,"end":3732.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3734.4684687500003,"end":3735.0928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3734.50221875,"end":3737.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3737.1178437500002,"end":3737.9278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3739.04159375,"end":3739.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3739.6659687500005,"end":3742.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3742.34909375,"end":3744.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3744.5934687500003,"end":3746.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3755.4103437500007,"end":3756.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3788.56971875,"end":3793.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3796.2478437500004,"end":3797.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3797.61471875,"end":3800.6015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3890.96721875,"end":3894.0722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3894.7303437500004,"end":3895.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3895.96221875,"end":3904.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3904.65284375,"end":3908.1290937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3909.2597187500005,"end":3910.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3909.7997187500005,"end":3909.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3910.84596875,"end":3922.2028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3922.67534375,"end":3926.6747187500005}],"whisperx":[{"start":2113.632,"end":2117.04,"text":"好,那我們是不是就先來進行"},{"start":2341.953,"end":2342.442,"text":"衛福部有人在嗎?"},{"start":2400.981,"end":2414.275,"text":"好那我們就先宣讀好不好先宣讀那個好那我們就先直接開始今天的那個協商號那是不是請先宣讀這個新的提案內容跟附帶決議"},{"start":2416.638,"end":2435.894,"text":"宣讀政委員天才黨人所提的修正動議第十四條第四項外國專業人才及外國貼定專業人才在我國就學取得大學、校院、學士以上學位者得一下列規定折抵第一項及前項之在我國連續拘留期間一"},{"start":2436.795,"end":2458.834,"text":"外國專業人才取得博士學位者折抵兩年、碩士學位者折抵一年、學士學位且就讀四年以上者折抵六個月、三者不得合併折抵、二外國特定專業人才取得博士學位者折抵兩年、碩士學位者折抵一年、二者不得合併折抵、其餘均與現行法相同。附帶決議第一案"},{"start":2460.714,"end":2482.25,"text":"建立有國勞動力短缺導因於少子女化與高齡化問題,由於產業人才短缺的急迫性,特別是中高階或掌握關鍵技術的人才,因此對內打造培育產業人才需求的高教育環境,對外進行攬裁、流裁兩者應可並行不備"},{"start":2483.74,"end":2506.288,"text":"此次為能立即爭取外籍人才留台服務、修法與我國就讀並取得學位者放寬申請永久居留年限為鑒於政府資源有限各類產業對專業人才需求的急迫性不一、衛冕法規遭不當濫用、形成移民漏洞而引發社會對立、影響國人權益。國發會應討籌相關部會議各類專業工作"},{"start":2511.75,"end":2519.522,"text":"公需狀況分別定地外籍專業人才每年申請永久居留名額並適時檢討政策執行狀況滾動修正之提案委員謝依鳳、楊瓊英、鄭振前、鄭天才"},{"start":2526.653,"end":2544.116,"text":"第二案介於現行身心障礙照顧服務資源有限未免應建立友善樓台環境卻產生排擠效應從而降低國人原有照顧服務品質針對外國專業人才本人配偶未成年子女及因身心障礙無法治理生活之成年子女"},{"start":2544.657,"end":2567.27,"text":"於獲取永久居留並經評估適用身心障礙者權益保障法第五十條及第五十一條長期照顧法第八條之一第四項規定所提供之服務而衍生之相關經費惠服不應以外加方式編列之意維持整體照顧服務品質與能量提案委員謝依鳳、楊瓊英、鄭任前、鄭清才宣讀完畢"},{"start":2569.482,"end":2585.204,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在三黨的這個同仁都到齊我是不是先讓國發會針對今天國民黨黨團提出來的這個修正動議是不是先表示一下意見好不好 謝謝"},{"start":2587.126,"end":2597.711,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位委員我做簡短的說明就第一個我們現在今年光今年組織總數統計我們的缺工就是24.4萬那專業人才缺6.7萬"},{"start":2601.873,"end":2628.673,"text":"專業人才缺六點七萬我們估到2038年我們缺口是一百萬我們現在也做了很多的調查發現副學士在我們這個領域裡面扮演非常重要的角色比如說工廠他需要乙級電匠、甲級電匠這種電匠的重電維修大學生比較不會去做得靠副學士我們今天早上才開一個能源會議就發現現在光申請裝冷就你買冷氣要等三個月"},{"start":2629.895,"end":2653.928,"text":"在台北因為這樣的技術人才都找不到如果我們在限縮這種技術人才的需求的話我們其實會持續造成很嚴重的社會權供所以我們希望能夠維持原版本在學士跟副學士上面我們都可以放寬也請委員放心放心什麼原因呢?這樣的人數目前我們看到目前在就讀大學的"},{"start":2654.748,"end":2679.019,"text":"這些人那如果有一半的人願意留下來只佔千分之二點八的就業人口數那這個人口數是非常少的所以呢如果我們還要緊縮我們將很難面對競爭因為我們最近統計下來我們是輸給日本也輸給新加坡我們只有比韓國好一點點那我們的競爭力會薄弱另外一個很關鍵的是2038年"},{"start":2682.06,"end":2703.208,"text":"2038年東南亞的薪資水平跟各種福利會達到跟我們一樣所以我們會找不到人那日本也在決戰2038年之前怎麼樣去累積足夠的人才所以我是希望這個法條能夠維持原意請各位委員能夠支持好來江淇凱委員"},{"start":2704.381,"end":2721.544,"text":"今天這個修法是好事因為現在缺工確實很嚴重燒紙化問題也嚴重那國際上都在搶人才台灣東城要慶祝我現在看到依鳳也有提邱瑩、邱委員、羅美玲跟賴瑞榮那我個人的立場我比較贊成就可以支持行政業院版"},{"start":2722.986,"end":2736.957,"text":"就是在那個學士或副學士可以折抵一年然後那個博士是折抵兩年、碩士學位折抵一年可是不得併計好不好我就支持行政的驗版謝謝好謝謝謝謝張綺凱委員來羅美玲委員"},{"start":2742.964,"end":2761.685,"text":"好 剛剛主委已經講得非常的清楚我們是連國外的專業人才我們都要吸引來台更何況這些僑外生是我們台灣自己培育的人才我們如果是說要緊縮不讓他們就是有誘因留在台灣我覺得這是一個非常讓人家匪夷所思的事情"},{"start":2762.185,"end":2779.936,"text":"因為這僑外信是我們臺灣大專院校所培養出來的人才你不把他留著就把他送到日本、把他送到新加坡、把他送到韓國所以我是覺得說真的是支持院本因為剛剛主委也講得很清楚像副學士的部分"},{"start":2781.076,"end":2804.895,"text":"所以我們家也是一樣冷氣壞了兩三個禮拜我找不到人家來幫我幫我們做修理天氣又這麼的熱那是誰會去做就像主委所講的是副學士像甲級電這樣才會來做處理的事情所以我是覺得說我們缺的人才是方方面面都有各層級都有所以我是支持這個院版那就是這部分的話也請我們國民黨委員可以支持謝謝"},{"start":2806.63,"end":2809.272,"text":"國民黨也支持外國專業人才延攬及僱用法,因應未來高階人才缺乏的情況"},{"start":2822.742,"end":2825.566,"text":"我們也知道說怎麼樣子修這個法然後再向外來延攬人才進來那畢竟我們還有未來的AI產業等等那但是不能夠因為我們提到的就是說什麼冷氣缺口問題我們就開放了"},{"start":2841.127,"end":2857.269,"text":"對就開放我們絕對是贊成橋外人士留台繼續為臺灣服務但是必須是要有合理性因為過去以來大家都認為說學士臺灣現在學士已經都是比比皆是那"},{"start":2857.97,"end":2885.904,"text":"怎麼可能就是在這個法上面來看好像把連就是副學士也變成專業人才那對於就是說我們未來在邏輯性的這個考量上面當然會有有一點不一致的情況所以我認為說我們是不是我們是不是還是可以就是說以學士以上那當然說博士我們當然希望說臺灣培養的這樣子優秀人的橋外人才可以留在臺灣"},{"start":2888.82,"end":2909.391,"text":"等一下等一下那個鄭天才委員發言完再讓國發會回應非常謝謝國發會還有相關的部會這個我在前幾天有邀請他們來討論也提供了相關的資料"},{"start":2911.447,"end":2918.647,"text":"我還是大家這個還是要從法律的條文來看所謂的"},{"start":2921.29,"end":2942.795,"text":"這個專業工作這個就是外國專業人才延攬及僱用法所謂的專業工作就是就業服務法46條第一項第一款至第三款第五款及第六款就是就業服務法還有48條還有就業服務法48條"},{"start":2946.249,"end":2969.999,"text":"所以我們這個剛才這個委員支持的理由其實是看到只是部分看到只是部分就那個部分我絕對是支持但是我要讓大家了解的是說這個是就業服務法46條"},{"start":2973.406,"end":2992.405,"text":"這個第三款是什麼呢老師一般的老師啊我們現在我上次講了哈我還是要講就是我們現在很多大專校宴一直在裁測失利的"},{"start":2994.079,"end":3005.899,"text":"然後很多老師都還是這個帶課帶課帶課啊帶課啊國內的一直帶課所以我們必須真的是要考量"},{"start":3007.338,"end":3034.263,"text":"如果要去限收在專門性及技術性工作我絕對百分之百支持或是華小或外國人經政府核准投資或設立事業之主管百分之百支持問題是就是這些下列學校教師好幾款所以這個真的是要去仔細的去看"},{"start":3035.802,"end":3053.631,"text":"然後這個國安會整理相關的部會所提供的資料橋外生來台修讀協會之領域分布情形教育領域2.16%人文及藝術領域15.47%包括其他的這個比例都還不少"},{"start":3065.815,"end":3086.445,"text":"所以真正要講到的那個專門性及技術性質工作的比例是部分所以我們要很仔細的因為如果真的這麼是所以我們有提修正動議希望能夠支持"},{"start":3087.677,"end":3093.402,"text":"法定人權及法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":3101.67,"end":3128.653,"text":"不是負責另外一個業務的你們要通盤的就在教育部各司之間來討論你是國際司當然就你不了解其他的高教師的困難他有他的很多困難包括國教署他有他的困難常常也曾經反映我們的流浪教師所以這個部分真的是"},{"start":3130.237,"end":3156.19,"text":"如果是真的專門性技術性的我百分之百支持但是因為他很廣啊還有包括我只是舉例子一般教師哦那還有其他的48條那個所以這個還有後面的第46條就業服務法第46條的第五款第六款所以這個部分這個我要還是要自己審慎以上"},{"start":3162.103,"end":3184.894,"text":"來 劉主委回應一下謝謝委員我想跟委員做兩個補充說明這個只是一個折抵那將來他要留下來還要經過一個評鑑考核總共有八大項這八大項有兩項我說明一下第一個就是碩士的學歷評分碩士是20分"},{"start":3186.855,"end":3212.614,"text":"學士是十分、副學士是五分所以對學歷本來就存在的差異其中還有一項是配合政府政策也就是說主要是配合政府產業發展相關的政策企業受雇者還有國家政策所開設專班經由基督基管到入學的僑生只有這兩個條件也就是說如果這個產業它不是教育產業它不是在我們的政策範圍內"},{"start":3213.655,"end":3234.793,"text":"那他是並沒有辦法得到分數那當他得不到分數他其實是折抵只是一個加分的項目並不是決定項目所以第二個事情呢那這樣的委員所擔心的人數呢我們現在就算整個整個整個全部畢業進來那大概只佔千分之二點八"},{"start":3235.393,"end":3250.93,"text":"那從事教育相關的人按照我們過去存留比例這1408人存留大概不會到一半所以影響就業人口數是不到萬分之一萬分之大概0.7只有萬分之0.7第二個經過這八個條件的選項裡面"},{"start":3256.255,"end":3281.503,"text":"那從學歷的角度跟他在政策的角度他的得分數都會尤其是政策角度他是沒辦法得到分數的所以我認為在委員的這個擔心的領域裡面影響是微乎其微也請委員考慮一下這個只是一個讓他更寬更比較跟別的國家有競爭力跟別的國家有競爭力那我們還是有個管控的地方是在評分的上面八個要項的評分"},{"start":3287.031,"end":3302.984,"text":"我還是建議大家先看一下其實我們上一次的在主條討論的時候已經大家都有充分表達意見也談得非常清楚這個開放的外國專業人才尤其是在台灣的"},{"start":3304.085,"end":3310.973,"text":"曾經在臺灣就學、折抵他的居留的時程其實對於國內的就業市場影響並不大但是對於我們攬財的影響其實是會有的我們也希望這些人都是在臺灣就學"},{"start":3321.764,"end":3337.661,"text":"台灣訓練出來的專業人士我們只是希望他在過去在台灣就學的時候的居留時間能夠折抵他未來申請永居的這個時間而已所以是不是懇請各位委員因為國民黨也有提出一個修正動議那國民黨"},{"start":3340.583,"end":3360.336,"text":"黨團的版本是把這個副學士把它取消然後這個學士的居留只折抵半年我覺得在現在這個全球虛才恐極的時段是不是我們能夠敬請這個國民黨黨團的同仁是不是能夠支持原來行政院的這個版本"},{"start":3361.337,"end":3378.526,"text":"就是不要去歧視副學士啦副學士其實我們現在看到很多的科技大廠的科技大廠的這些老闆過去他都是專科畢業而已喔趙薇我們沒有歧視副學士我們只是說就是為了就是說讓就是國內的專業人才也可以"},{"start":3381.648,"end":3407.58,"text":"國內的專業人才不會有永居的問題因為他就是臺灣人我們現在講的是國外的來臺灣就學的人才臺灣培訓出來的專業人才是臺灣培訓出來的專業人才不是否定臺灣的每個政策都要多重考量那我們只是著重說怎麼樣子考量就是不要影響到國內專業人才的這樣子就業的權利這樣子"},{"start":3411.889,"end":3412.589,"text":"並沒有行政院版"},{"start":3439.148,"end":3459.277,"text":"因為我們現在樓下還有一場協商那這個聽說是已經跟國民黨團有協調過了我們先再討論先討論下面的那個附帶決議來那個附帶決議好那第十四條的附帶決議兩個附帶決議齁一個是"},{"start":3467.247,"end":3496.327,"text":"二十一條之一的附帶決議是希望衛福部能夠外加的在額外編列預算嘛對不對那衛福部是同意的嘛好那二十一條之一的附帶決議我們就通過大家沒意見沒有意見的話我們就通過好不好就照國民黨版的那個國民黨提的版本附帶決議通過那現在第十四條的附帶決議因為這個你們十四條的附帶決議跟第十四條的修正案其實是有相關聯的"},{"start":3497.987,"end":3522.607,"text":"所以第十四條大家沒有共識的話十四條的附帶決也不會有共識因為你現在是還要還要他們去檢討拘留名額現在連拘留的扣底時間我們都沒有沒有共識了更何況要去檢討拘留名額這個其實是要限縮了不是放寬我覺得大家要考慮清楚為了國家長遠的發展我是建議要考慮清楚這個"},{"start":3529.938,"end":3557.124,"text":"現在能夠拿到的居留的名額其實也不多啦因為他有各種不同的評比那我們如果還要去滾動檢討要限縮他的居留名額的話我覺得這個反而是走回頭路來那不然那個主委你要不要先跟國民黨團溝通一下我先下去樓下"},{"start":3562.284,"end":3577.054,"text":"阿對啊他們也要下去樓下阿他們也要處理農業移工那個公糧的事情好啦我是建議這樣啦這個其實對國內的就業市場是沒有影響第二個我們要想清楚這些人是台灣培育出來的專業人才"},{"start":3578.982,"end":3604.971,"text":"是在臺灣就學臺灣培育出來的專業人才我們如果現在給他限縮等於我們否定我們自己培育的專業人才我覺得這個邏輯上不太通啦第三個政委員您剛提到那個老師的部分他如果真的要去當老師要去學校任教他還要有特殊的比如說他的是特殊的語言是學校的需求我建議用詞我用詞又不精準了好對不起當然啊"},{"start":3606.011,"end":3630.769,"text":"就像陸生陸生來台也是在台灣培育的人才我們沒有讓他進來所以用詞還是要精準一點從國外來的不只是僱外生還有外國人還有陸生不能說因為他是台灣培育的人才所以就可以這個用詞還是要精準一點中生跟僱外生是不一樣的"},{"start":3635.331,"end":3654.081,"text":"來好不好那要不要我們支持那個修正修正的條文好不好副學士我是覺得把副學士納入沒有什麼不好啦副學士"},{"start":3661.513,"end":3680.596,"text":"那附帶決議附帶決議我覺得那個第十四條的附帶決議我們是不是就我們不要去限縮那個居留的名額啦那第二十一條的附帶決議我們剛剛已經通過了嘛好嗎我們現在整個法其實是要放寬我們要吸引更多的人才能夠留在台灣好不好"},{"start":3683.939,"end":3698.674,"text":"你們同意我們就可以簽協商結論啦你現在不能講不是你能決定那我們是不是應該對這個政策滾動檢討啦是不是可以啊那就是國發會應統籌各部會依各類專業工作需求狀況做滾動檢討好不好"},{"start":3708,"end":3732.422,"text":"居留名額那個限縮的我們就我們就先不要我們就是把這整個外國人才的這個實際的工作狀況跟需求狀況我們做滾動式的檢討好嗎那個文字我是不是授權議事人員跟國發會這邊去做比較精準的文字修正好嗎先先修完吧現在現在每次都"},{"start":3734.562,"end":3746.074,"text":"等下修完還是要讓你們看還是要讓你們簽名那OK是怎樣?同意嗎?照原來的修正條文嗎?學士赴學士則抵一年"},{"start":3789.273,"end":3793.12,"text":"那我是不是先宣讀一下第十四條條文我們照協商內容通過"},{"start":3891.021,"end":3898.386,"text":"我們請宣讀一下那個附帶決議的修正文字附帶決議第一案倒數第三行從國發會這邊改成國發會每年因統籌相關部會依各類專業工作供需狀況做滾動式檢討"},{"start":3909.278,"end":3909.498,"text":"宣讀完畢"}]}},{"id":"16045","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16045","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc53741711f1205b958bd03a951da4504b627684c85f64cd7be9b19b02f2b96f425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-27T08:30:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:52:00+08:00","duration":12106,"影片長度":"03:21:46","委員發言時間":"08:30:14 - 11:52:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1847.0503437500001,"end":1847.0672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1847.0672187500002,"end":1848.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1848.29909375,"end":1848.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1848.3159687500001,"end":1852.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1854.4078437500002,"end":1858.6097187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1859.5040937500003,"end":1875.0628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1875.3328437500002,"end":1879.6697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1879.9059687500003,"end":1883.1122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1883.31471875,"end":1885.3228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1885.7278437500001,"end":1895.0259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1895.3465937500002,"end":1900.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1900.7803437500002,"end":1905.0328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1905.5053437500003,"end":1914.2972187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1914.7190937500002,"end":1918.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1918.7690937500001,"end":1923.7472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1924.1015937500001,"end":1931.9315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1932.4040937500001,"end":1937.2640937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1937.6522187500002,"end":1944.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1944.4528437500003,"end":1951.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1952.8228437500002,"end":1957.3284687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1958.5603437500001,"end":1960.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1960.7034687500002,"end":1962.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1964.6690937500002,"end":1966.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1967.5884687500002,"end":1970.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1970.5247187500001,"end":1971.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1971.3684687500001,"end":1972.9378437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1972.9715937500002,"end":1973.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1973.3428437500002,"end":1974.6253437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1975.40159375,"end":1976.7515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1976.7515937500002,"end":1976.9034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1977.1565937500002,"end":1978.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1979.62034375,"end":1981.5440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1982.1347187500003,"end":1983.3328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1984.7165937500001,"end":1987.3322187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1990.0828437500002,"end":1994.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1996.6809687500001,"end":2000.4103437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2001.57471875,"end":2003.4815937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2003.7684687500002,"end":2004.6459687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2006.0972187500001,"end":2008.7128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2009.3709687500002,"end":2012.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2013.38721875,"end":2013.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2013.8934687500002,"end":2015.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2015.78346875,"end":2018.0109687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2018.5509687500003,"end":2021.5209687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2022.9215937500003,"end":2023.0565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2025.5540937500002,"end":2027.0053437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2027.6803437500002,"end":2033.2997187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2035.3078437500003,"end":2041.0284687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2041.4334687500002,"end":2043.8128437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2044.1334687500002,"end":2045.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2046.5128437500002,"end":2049.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2049.46596875,"end":2050.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2050.4278437499997,"end":2051.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2052.0309687500003,"end":2055.5240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2064.06284375,"end":2067.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2067.91034375,"end":2080.4990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2080.75221875,"end":2082.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2083.0303437500006,"end":2085.5615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2085.7978437500005,"end":2087.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2087.8903437500003,"end":2090.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2090.9784687500005,"end":2093.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2093.54346875,"end":2097.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2097.81284375,"end":2115.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2116.44284375,"end":2126.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2127.04034375,"end":2136.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2137.48596875,"end":2145.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2146.26096875,"end":2149.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2150.19284375,"end":2150.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2151.39096875,"end":2155.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2156.20034375,"end":2158.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2158.81596875,"end":2163.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2163.76034375,"end":2164.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2164.89096875,"end":2168.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2168.5865937500002,"end":2171.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2172.2822187500005,"end":2173.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2174.5772187500006,"end":2180.2303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2181.5634687500005,"end":2184.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2185.02284375,"end":2187.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2188.8365937500002,"end":2194.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2195.21534375,"end":2196.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2197.3415937500004,"end":2199.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2200.07534375,"end":2200.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2201.10471875,"end":2202.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2202.8259687500004,"end":2223.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2224.18971875,"end":2224.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2225.87721875,"end":2227.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2228.2734687500006,"end":2230.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2231.4628437500005,"end":2234.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2234.97284375,"end":2236.8122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2237.03159375,"end":2240.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2240.2715937500006,"end":2250.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2251.39221875,"end":2259.6609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2262.10784375,"end":2262.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2263.3903437500003,"end":2272.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2273.12721875,"end":2273.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2279.6072187500004,"end":2281.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2281.69971875,"end":2282.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2283.4715937500005,"end":2285.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2285.9522187500006,"end":2288.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2288.73659375,"end":2289.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2290.66034375,"end":2293.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2294.47409375,"end":2299.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2299.60409375,"end":2301.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2302.06784375,"end":2304.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2304.8015937500004,"end":2306.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2307.4509687500004,"end":2309.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2309.89784375,"end":2313.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2313.6103437500005,"end":2315.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2316.0065937500003,"end":2318.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2318.75721875,"end":2321.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2321.64284375,"end":2325.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2326.06409375,"end":2328.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2329.13534375,"end":2332.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2332.49346875,"end":2335.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2336.42534375,"end":2339.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2339.66534375,"end":2340.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2340.9647187500004,"end":2351.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2352.0009687500005,"end":2357.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2357.7722187500003,"end":2360.5059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2360.6747187500005,"end":2367.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2367.9647187500004,"end":2369.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2370.05721875,"end":2371.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2371.20471875,"end":2372.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2373.2803437500006,"end":2376.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2376.8747187500003,"end":2380.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2380.58721875,"end":2383.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2383.6922187500004,"end":2385.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2386.4597187500003,"end":2387.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2387.7422187500006,"end":2394.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2394.3572187500004,"end":2401.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2401.5290937500004,"end":2402.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2403.73971875,"end":2411.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2411.50221875,"end":2413.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2414.35409375,"end":2418.4040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2418.8259687500004,"end":2423.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2424.64784375,"end":2427.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2427.36471875,"end":2428.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2428.5290937500004,"end":2429.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2431.11096875,"end":2433.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2433.20346875,"end":2444.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2444.84721875,"end":2447.5303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2447.73284375,"end":2449.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2449.8590937500003,"end":2451.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2451.6647187500002,"end":2452.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2453.2340937500003,"end":2454.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2454.5165937500005,"end":2455.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2455.61346875,"end":2456.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2457.1153437500006,"end":2459.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2459.29221875,"end":2461.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2461.35096875,"end":2464.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2465.2322187500004,"end":2467.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2468.23596875,"end":2470.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2470.6490937500002,"end":2471.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2471.4928437500002,"end":2475.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2475.6778437500006,"end":2477.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2478.2090937500006,"end":2479.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2479.9303437500002,"end":2485.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2485.27971875,"end":2486.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2486.91659375,"end":2488.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2488.5028437500005,"end":2492.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2492.7722187500003,"end":2494.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2495.2528437500005,"end":2497.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2497.7334687500006,"end":2502.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2505.6309687500006,"end":2506.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2509.30971875,"end":2515.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2518.3209687500002,"end":2534.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2534.9090937500005,"end":2538.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2539.2459687500004,"end":2542.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2542.30034375,"end":2544.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2556.55971875,"end":2559.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2564.5078437500006,"end":2565.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2565.79034375,"end":2577.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2578.2440937500005,"end":2583.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2583.5428437500004,"end":2586.7490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2587.01909375,"end":2589.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2590.20846875,"end":2596.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2596.3172187500004,"end":2598.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2598.83159375,"end":2600.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2600.8903437500003,"end":2602.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2602.6453437500004,"end":2603.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2607.8259687500004,"end":2612.0447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2612.7703437500004,"end":2617.0565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2617.8834687500002,"end":2622.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2623.48596875,"end":2625.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2625.7809687500003,"end":2627.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2628.9872187500005,"end":2629.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2631.8728437500004,"end":2633.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2634.1003437500003,"end":2634.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2636.24346875,"end":2637.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2638.84221875,"end":2639.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2640.17534375,"end":2642.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2642.70659375,"end":2643.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2644.44471875,"end":2645.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2645.96346875,"end":2647.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2647.7859687500004,"end":2648.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2649.3722187500007,"end":2649.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2652.51096875,"end":2654.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2656.7803437500006,"end":2657.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2658.2653437500003,"end":2660.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2661.6403437500003,"end":2667.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2668.4578437500004,"end":2669.4197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2670.1959687500002,"end":2671.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2672.2547187500004,"end":2676.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2676.87846875,"end":2678.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2679.2409687500003,"end":2680.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2683.4765937500006,"end":2685.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2685.8897187500006,"end":2686.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2687.29034375,"end":2692.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2693.0447187500004,"end":2693.8884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2693.7872187500006,"end":2693.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2693.8884687500004,"end":2695.3565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2694.9347187500007,"end":2695.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2695.74471875,"end":2696.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2697.3815937500003,"end":2698.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2699.3053437500002,"end":2701.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2701.8534687500005,"end":2703.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2703.8447187500005,"end":2704.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2705.56596875,"end":2706.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2707.25346875,"end":2710.4597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2711.59034375,"end":2712.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2713.0078437500006,"end":2713.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2714.4590937500006,"end":2715.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2717.14221875,"end":2718.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2719.48784375,"end":2720.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2721.7997187500005,"end":2723.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2723.7740937500002,"end":2725.9509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2726.96346875,"end":2728.6847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2729.7647187500006,"end":2732.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2734.06784375,"end":2741.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2741.8640937500004,"end":2742.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2743.77096875,"end":2745.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2746.8253437500007,"end":2748.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2748.6140937500004,"end":2751.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2754.06471875,"end":2754.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2758.60409375,"end":2762.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2761.11846875,"end":2764.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2762.80596875,"end":2762.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2765.05034375,"end":2767.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2768.5772187500006,"end":2772.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2773.67346875,"end":2778.5672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2782.3640937500004,"end":2783.1065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2784.4903437500006,"end":2787.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2787.93284375,"end":2789.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2790.97034375,"end":2792.3709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2794.5478437500005,"end":2795.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2796.1172187500006,"end":2797.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2799.22221875,"end":2800.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2803.79534375,"end":2805.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2809.9715937500005,"end":2810.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2812.18221875,"end":2813.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2815.4053437500006,"end":2817.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2817.88596875,"end":2818.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2819.8434687500003,"end":2820.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2824.5515937500004,"end":2825.2265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2825.73284375,"end":2826.5597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2828.2978437500005,"end":2831.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2833.49534375,"end":2835.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2837.3428437500006,"end":2838.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2838.20346875,"end":2838.9122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2839.4353437500004,"end":2840.5828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2841.10596875,"end":2842.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2844.3965937500006,"end":2848.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2847.4003437500005,"end":2847.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2859.12846875,"end":2861.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2861.77784375,"end":2863.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2864.42721875,"end":2867.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2869.35471875,"end":2871.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2872.0547187500006,"end":2876.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2877.92721875,"end":2879.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2881.7578437500006,"end":2883.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2886.43221875,"end":2887.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2889.0309687500003,"end":2890.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2892.1865937500006,"end":2894.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2894.98784375,"end":2896.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2897.1647187500002,"end":2898.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2900.3878437500007,"end":2901.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2907.10409375,"end":2909.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2912.38596875,"end":2913.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2915.87909375,"end":2918.1065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2920.72221875,"end":2921.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2922.0722187500005,"end":2931.6065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2932.34909375,"end":2934.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2934.03659375,"end":2935.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2935.16721875,"end":2939.4197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2939.2003437500007,"end":2946.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2940.53346875,"end":2941.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2946.67596875,"end":2948.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2948.49846875,"end":2951.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2951.82284375,"end":2953.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2953.79721875,"end":2956.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2957.05409375,"end":2958.4209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2959.3828437500006,"end":2960.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2960.2097187500003,"end":2961.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2961.6778437500006,"end":2962.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2963.0447187500004,"end":2963.2303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2963.2303437500004,"end":2969.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2970.3515937500006,"end":2972.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2974.1315937500003,"end":2979.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2985.3028437500006,"end":2987.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2988.76221875,"end":2990.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2990.68596875,"end":2992.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2993.1159687500003,"end":2995.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2995.91721875,"end":3002.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3003.59534375,"end":3009.2315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3014.91846875,"end":3015.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3016.9772187500002,"end":3020.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3020.26784375,"end":3021.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3021.9890937500004,"end":3022.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3023.9297187500006,"end":3024.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3026.2247187500006,"end":3030.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3030.46034375,"end":3033.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3033.78471875,"end":3035.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3037.1934687500006,"end":3038.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3038.66159375,"end":3039.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3040.4334687500004,"end":3042.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3043.0828437500004,"end":3044.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3045.2428437500002,"end":3046.8122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3047.26784375,"end":3048.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3049.49534375,"end":3051.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3053.2247187500006,"end":3055.2497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3055.95846875,"end":3058.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3060.16034375,"end":3061.7634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3062.9615937500002,"end":3064.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3065.22284375,"end":3066.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3067.3659687500003,"end":3074.8584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3075.0947187500005,"end":3077.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3077.03534375,"end":3079.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3077.0690937500003,"end":3077.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3080.66346875,"end":3082.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3082.82346875,"end":3084.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3085.9959687500004,"end":3086.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3087.7340937500003,"end":3088.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3089.9109687500004,"end":3089.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3089.9784687500005,"end":3090.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3093.57284375,"end":3096.3065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3093.87659375,"end":3094.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3096.4753437500003,"end":3099.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3121.83846875,"end":3125.0447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3125.26409375,"end":3125.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3128.57159375,"end":3128.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3128.9765937500006,"end":3129.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3129.06096875,"end":3129.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3129.6853437500004,"end":3131.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3132.08159375,"end":3133.9040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3134.0897187500004,"end":3134.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3134.12346875,"end":3134.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3134.3934687500005,"end":3134.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3134.61284375,"end":3140.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3140.40096875,"end":3140.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3140.4347187500007,"end":3144.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3142.30784375,"end":3142.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3145.1765937500004,"end":3146.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3146.4422187500004,"end":3148.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3148.7372187500005,"end":3149.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3149.4459687500002,"end":3156.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3156.48284375,"end":3175.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3170.3034687500003,"end":3170.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3175.34909375,"end":3177.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3176.3953437500004,"end":3178.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3179.01096875,"end":3180.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3180.0740937500004,"end":3183.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3180.0909687500007,"end":3180.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3180.3103437500004,"end":3180.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3183.6347187500005,"end":3184.1915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3183.90471875,"end":3187.6678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3187.88721875,"end":3190.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3189.5915937500004,"end":3190.7559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3190.7559687500006,"end":3193.1522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3192.0722187500005,"end":3194.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3194.3503437500003,"end":3197.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3197.2528437500005,"end":3198.9572187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3198.1134687500007,"end":3200.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3200.3915937500005,"end":3202.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3203.1084687500006,"end":3204.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3204.81284375,"end":3208.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3209.7740937500002,"end":3210.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3211.32659375,"end":3211.7147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3212.35596875,"end":3213.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3213.50346875,"end":3214.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3214.02659375,"end":3260.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3214.0603437500004,"end":3214.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3261.15846875,"end":3323.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3324.43971875,"end":3328.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3328.84409375,"end":3331.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3329.2322187500004,"end":3331.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3331.93221875,"end":3341.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3340.4034687500007,"end":3340.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3341.44971875,"end":3360.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3360.97409375,"end":3361.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3361.6153437500006,"end":3370.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3370.49159375,"end":3370.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3370.5928437500006,"end":3373.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3374.0184687500005,"end":3376.1447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3376.1784687500003,"end":3380.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3380.92034375,"end":3381.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3381.3759687500005,"end":3381.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3381.40971875,"end":3381.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3381.4265937500004,"end":3382.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3381.5447187500004,"end":3382.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3382.6415937500005,"end":3388.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3389.23971875,"end":3392.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3393.3065937500005,"end":3394.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3396.22596875,"end":3399.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3400.79909375,"end":3406.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3404.17409375,"end":3404.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3405.7772187500004,"end":3464.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3465.10971875,"end":3539.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3540.3722187500007,"end":3555.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3556.3359687500006,"end":3579.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3579.9103437500007,"end":3580.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3581.1590937500005,"end":3581.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3581.80034375,"end":3583.0828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3584.92221875,"end":3588.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3603.1640937500006,"end":3605.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3605.6953437500006,"end":3606.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3608.19284375,"end":3608.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3609.6103437500005,"end":3611.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3610.47096875,"end":3610.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3610.5215937500006,"end":3610.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3611.5847187500003,"end":3612.3272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3613.1709687500006,"end":3615.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3615.60096875,"end":3615.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3616.7653437500003,"end":3616.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3616.9678437500006,"end":3621.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3619.8365937500002,"end":3622.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3623.19471875,"end":3628.7803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3629.3878437500007,"end":3632.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3633.31971875,"end":3638.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3638.9728437500007,"end":3646.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3647.07284375,"end":3647.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3649.90784375,"end":3650.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3650.9540937500005,"end":3657.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3658.3790937500007,"end":3658.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3659.6447187500007,"end":3662.2265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3662.78346875,"end":3669.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3670.4109687500004,"end":3677.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3678.2409687500003,"end":3688.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3689.4122187500006,"end":3698.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3699.4190937500007,"end":3709.2909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3709.8815937500003,"end":3712.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3713.2059687500005,"end":3718.2853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3718.60596875,"end":3722.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3722.4197187500004,"end":3724.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3724.98471875,"end":3730.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3731.0428437500004,"end":3732.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3732.9665937500004,"end":3734.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3735.5147187500006,"end":3738.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3739.58159375,"end":3742.2140937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3742.6697187500004,"end":3744.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3745.2684687500005,"end":3747.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3747.6309687500006,"end":3757.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3758.86971875,"end":3763.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3765.01221875,"end":3778.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3773.61846875,"end":3775.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3777.0778437500003,"end":3777.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3779.1872187500003,"end":3792.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3792.5690937500003,"end":3794.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3794.9990937500006,"end":3797.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3797.8172187500004,"end":3800.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3801.2090937500006,"end":3802.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3802.9303437500002,"end":3807.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3807.7734687500006,"end":3810.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3811.0134687500004,"end":3845.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3828.34409375,"end":3828.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3833.3728437500004,"end":3834.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3835.2459687500004,"end":3835.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3845.5734687500008,"end":3854.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3855.29346875,"end":3855.7322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3856.91346875,"end":3859.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3858.11159375,"end":3858.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3860.40659375,"end":3870.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3870.1434687500005,"end":3870.3797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3870.3797187500004,"end":3884.4197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3870.3965937500006,"end":3870.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3884.6559687500003,"end":3893.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3893.86971875,"end":3897.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3897.54846875,"end":3899.8097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3900.2147187500004,"end":3909.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3910.0359687500004,"end":3918.1359687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3918.43971875,"end":3920.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3921.2072187500007,"end":3921.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3923.2322187500004,"end":3923.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3924.17721875,"end":3924.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3925.3584687500006,"end":3925.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3926.16846875,"end":3928.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3928.6828437500008,"end":3928.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3928.9697187500005,"end":3928.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3928.98659375,"end":3929.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3929.00346875,"end":3929.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3930.03284375,"end":3934.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3930.0665937500007,"end":3932.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3932.7497187500003,"end":3932.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3934.23471875,"end":3935.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3935.21346875,"end":3935.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3936.04034375,"end":3937.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3938.03159375,"end":3940.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3943.1953437500006,"end":3944.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3944.8322187500007,"end":3944.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3944.8659687500003,"end":3948.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3945.03471875,"end":3945.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3946.9753437500003,"end":3953.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3952.3415937500004,"end":3952.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3953.9784687500005,"end":3954.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3954.4678437500006,"end":3954.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3954.8222187500005,"end":3956.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3957.5390937500006,"end":3965.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3966.31409375,"end":3967.6134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3968.94659375,"end":3970.4990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3971.5115937500004,"end":3987.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3988.60596875,"end":3992.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3992.6728437500005,"end":3994.8497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3996.80721875,"end":3997.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3997.63409375,"end":3999.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4000.0134687500004,"end":4000.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4001.2959687500006,"end":4003.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4003.8947187500007,"end":4005.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4005.48096875,"end":4006.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4006.8815937500003,"end":4010.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4010.29034375,"end":4011.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4011.6572187500005,"end":4012.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4013.7159687500007,"end":4014.7453437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4015.1672187500008,"end":4016.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4016.7197187500005,"end":4020.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4020.85409375,"end":4022.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4023.31784375,"end":4043.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4044.41159375,"end":4047.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4047.6178437500002,"end":4076.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4076.4403437500005,"end":4078.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4079.5284687500007,"end":4080.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4083.17346875,"end":4083.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4083.1903437500005,"end":4086.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4087.4765937500006,"end":4090.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4088.0840937500006,"end":4088.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4089.72096875,"end":4090.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4091.7459687500004,"end":4091.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4092.6403437500003,"end":4094.6990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4094.6990937500004,"end":4094.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4094.80034375,"end":4094.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4094.85096875,"end":4094.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4094.8847187500005,"end":4095.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4097.87159375,"end":4098.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4098.884093750001,"end":4098.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4098.9178437499995,"end":4098.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4098.95159375,"end":4099.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4104.33471875,"end":4105.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4105.56659375,"end":4108.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4107.72659375,"end":4109.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4109.380343750001,"end":4112.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4112.890343749999,"end":4113.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4121.22659375,"end":4126.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4126.727843750001,"end":4134.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4135.030343750001,"end":4139.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4139.991593750001,"end":4145.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4145.577218750001,"end":4146.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4146.72471875,"end":4151.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4151.50034375,"end":4153.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4155.53346875,"end":4158.689093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4158.925343749999,"end":4166.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4166.50221875,"end":4169.050343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4169.050343749999,"end":4170.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4171.7840937500005,"end":4172.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4173.72471875,"end":4173.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4173.741593750001,"end":4174.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4175.479718750001,"end":4178.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4178.466593749999,"end":4179.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4190.83596875,"end":4191.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4191.089093750001,"end":4193.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4199.93159375,"end":4200.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4200.8934687500005,"end":4201.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4203.10409375,"end":4205.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4205.669093750001,"end":4206.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4206.5634687500005,"end":4214.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4210.124093750001,"end":4210.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4210.208468750001,"end":4210.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4215.47346875,"end":4216.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4217.4647187499995,"end":4219.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4219.65846875,"end":4221.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4221.970343749999,"end":4223.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4223.26971875,"end":4223.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4223.97846875,"end":4224.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4224.029093749999,"end":4225.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4224.180968750001,"end":4226.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4226.17221875,"end":4229.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4227.91034375,"end":4229.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4229.429093750001,"end":4229.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4229.614718750001,"end":4229.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4229.901593750001,"end":4233.175343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4233.512843750001,"end":4237.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4239.58784375,"end":4239.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4239.975968750001,"end":4241.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4241.25846875,"end":4243.300343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4243.78971875,"end":4246.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4247.16471875,"end":4248.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4248.00846875,"end":4250.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4250.4384687500005,"end":4259.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4252.497218750001,"end":4253.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4256.800343749999,"end":4257.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4258.65659375,"end":4258.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4258.97721875,"end":4259.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4260.327218750001,"end":4278.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4260.52971875,"end":4260.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4269.7772187499995,"end":4269.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4280.03721875,"end":4280.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4281.99471875,"end":4284.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4285.65659375,"end":4287.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4285.673468749999,"end":4287.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4287.9178437499995,"end":4288.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4288.27221875,"end":4303.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4304.13471875,"end":4305.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4305.974093750001,"end":4310.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4311.20534375,"end":4312.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4313.02784375,"end":4313.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4314.4959687499995,"end":4314.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4315.18784375,"end":4320.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4320.35159375,"end":4323.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4320.53721875,"end":4321.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4323.034718749999,"end":4328.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4326.00471875,"end":4326.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4329.53159375,"end":4329.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4330.74659375,"end":4331.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4331.45534375,"end":4336.112843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4337.091593749999,"end":4338.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4338.10409375,"end":4338.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4339.217843750001,"end":4339.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4339.74096875,"end":4339.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4340.02784375,"end":4342.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4343.2509687500005,"end":4346.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4344.76971875,"end":4346.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4346.72721875,"end":4347.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4347.06471875,"end":4352.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4347.09846875,"end":4347.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4352.22846875,"end":4352.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4352.245343750001,"end":4352.515343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4352.9540937500005,"end":4357.206593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4358.35409375,"end":4361.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4361.999093750001,"end":4364.800343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4365.357218749999,"end":4367.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4367.905343750001,"end":4369.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4369.356593750001,"end":4369.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4369.964093750001,"end":4371.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4372.124093750001,"end":4372.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4372.7822187500005,"end":4375.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4375.83659375,"end":4378.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4378.51971875,"end":4381.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4381.94534375,"end":4382.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4382.8397187499995,"end":4383.362843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4384.577843749999,"end":4385.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4387.37909375,"end":4388.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4388.999093750001,"end":4392.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4390.46721875,"end":4391.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4394.02784375,"end":4394.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4394.989718750001,"end":4395.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4398.19596875,"end":4399.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4399.545968750001,"end":4404.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4404.70971875,"end":4406.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4408.00034375,"end":4410.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4411.13909375,"end":4412.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4413.130343750001,"end":4413.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4413.99096875,"end":4415.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4416.28596875,"end":4418.378468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4418.513468749999,"end":4419.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4418.86784375,"end":4419.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4420.74096875,"end":4435.860968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4425.29721875,"end":4427.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4434.44346875,"end":4434.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4436.45159375,"end":4437.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4438.29096875,"end":4439.894093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4440.16409375,"end":4440.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4440.231593750001,"end":4440.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4440.366593750001,"end":4440.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4441.9697187500005,"end":4442.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4443.15096875,"end":4443.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4444.214093750001,"end":4445.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4448.97284375,"end":4455.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4455.38534375,"end":4457.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4457.46096875,"end":4462.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4458.72659375,"end":4460.144093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4460.852843750001,"end":4467.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4468.716593749999,"end":4480.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4480.917218750001,"end":4482.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4483.262843750001,"end":4495.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4496.8134687500005,"end":4505.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4506.39846875,"end":4516.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4516.202843749999,"end":4521.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4521.687218749999,"end":4547.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4547.03346875,"end":4547.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4547.100968750001,"end":4547.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4547.522843750001,"end":4548.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4548.77159375,"end":4549.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4549.00784375,"end":4549.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4549.41284375,"end":4553.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4553.86784375,"end":4558.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4559.16659375,"end":4563.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4563.52034375,"end":4582.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4582.774718750001,"end":4583.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4582.960343750001,"end":4584.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4585.491593750001,"end":4586.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4586.97659375,"end":4593.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4593.6590937500005,"end":4597.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4598.60346875,"end":4599.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4600.1053437499995,"end":4601.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4602.29909375,"end":4603.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4604.189093749999,"end":4605.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4615.967843750001,"end":4617.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4617.43596875,"end":4618.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4621.772843750001,"end":4624.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4625.147843750001,"end":4625.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4626.71721875,"end":4629.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4630.075343750001,"end":4633.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4633.872218750001,"end":4634.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4635.1209687499995,"end":4636.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4636.84221875,"end":4637.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4637.702843749999,"end":4640.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4640.841593749999,"end":4641.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4641.685343749999,"end":4648.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4648.60409375,"end":4661.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4661.952218750001,"end":4663.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4663.589093750001,"end":4665.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4666.28909375,"end":4668.735968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4669.343468749999,"end":4670.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4670.27159375,"end":4672.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4673.663468750001,"end":4679.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4680.177218750001,"end":4681.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4682.708468750001,"end":4683.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4683.58596875,"end":4688.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4689.8465937500005,"end":4693.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4694.335343750001,"end":4695.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4695.837218750001,"end":4701.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4704.15659375,"end":4704.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4705.810343749999,"end":4706.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4708.29096875,"end":4709.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4710.450968749999,"end":4714.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4714.956593750001,"end":4718.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4718.44971875,"end":4722.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4723.259093750001,"end":4725.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4725.7059687500005,"end":4737.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4737.737843750001,"end":4741.720343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4741.78784375,"end":4741.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4742.378468750001,"end":4743.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4744.251593749999,"end":4747.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4748.234093749999,"end":4752.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4753.3134687500005,"end":4758.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4760.097218750001,"end":4760.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4760.92409375,"end":4762.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4762.915343750001,"end":4764.501593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4765.109093749999,"end":4766.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4766.712218750001,"end":4769.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4769.749718749999,"end":4770.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4771.8759687500005,"end":4775.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4775.6053437499995,"end":4776.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4777.14096875,"end":4778.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4780.09409375,"end":4794.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4783.41846875,"end":4784.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4785.71346875,"end":4786.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4794.977843750001,"end":4797.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4797.49221875,"end":4799.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4800.040343750001,"end":4800.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4801.18784375,"end":4803.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4804.05659375,"end":4806.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4806.452843749999,"end":4806.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4807.85346875,"end":4810.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4811.852843750001,"end":4813.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4813.97909375,"end":4817.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4818.77159375,"end":4819.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4820.189093749999,"end":4827.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4827.782843749999,"end":4846.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4841.95784375,"end":4842.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4847.27346875,"end":4847.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4847.796593749999,"end":4850.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4851.23909375,"end":4854.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4854.884093750001,"end":4857.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4857.837218750001,"end":4862.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4862.22471875,"end":4864.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4864.350968750001,"end":4865.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4866.20721875,"end":4874.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4875.083468750001,"end":4877.513468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4878.509093750001,"end":4879.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4879.55534375,"end":4881.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4881.546593749999,"end":4885.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4886.102843750001,"end":4887.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4888.904093749999,"end":4894.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4895.18159375,"end":4896.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4897.24034375,"end":4898.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4898.387843750001,"end":4898.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4900.024718750001,"end":4904.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4904.378468750001,"end":4905.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4905.559718750001,"end":4906.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4906.4540937500005,"end":4907.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4908.3778437500005,"end":4910.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4911.735968749999,"end":4917.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4918.09784375,"end":4923.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4923.970343749999,"end":4924.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4924.8309687500005,"end":4927.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4927.446593750001,"end":4927.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4927.817843750001,"end":4932.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4929.1678437499995,"end":4932.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4932.47534375,"end":4937.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4937.2509687500005,"end":4937.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4937.284718750001,"end":4939.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4937.858468750001,"end":4946.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4946.97096875,"end":4949.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4949.2997187500005,"end":4951.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4951.64534375,"end":4954.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4954.5478437500005,"end":4955.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4955.847218750001,"end":4958.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4958.02409375,"end":4958.985968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4959.4247187500005,"end":4978.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4969.448468750001,"end":4969.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4969.46534375,"end":4969.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4969.85346875,"end":4969.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4971.62534375,"end":4971.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4977.362843750001,"end":4977.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4977.413468750001,"end":4977.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4977.700343750001,"end":4978.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4981.345343749999,"end":4982.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4983.420968750001,"end":4986.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4998.76034375,"end":5000.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5000.616593750001,"end":5001.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5003.97471875,"end":5004.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5005.05471875,"end":5048.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5049.4697187500005,"end":5058.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5059.392218749999,"end":5077.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5077.718468749999,"end":5085.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5086.122218750001,"end":5091.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5092.247843749999,"end":5105.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5106.06846875,"end":5112.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5113.155968749999,"end":5117.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5117.25659375,"end":5170.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5170.260968750001,"end":5170.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5170.682843750001,"end":5197.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5197.9022187499995,"end":5202.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5203.065968750001,"end":5210.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5210.339093750001,"end":5211.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5211.58784375,"end":5225.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5225.49284375,"end":5225.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5225.86409375,"end":5230.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5230.909718750001,"end":5233.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5234.014718750001,"end":5244.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5244.645968750001,"end":5260.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5262.972218750001,"end":5265.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5265.38534375,"end":5280.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5265.419093750001,"end":5266.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5280.33659375,"end":5323.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5323.73909375,"end":5338.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5339.854718750001,"end":5341.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5341.390343749999,"end":5342.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5342.993468750001,"end":5346.689093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5347.954718749999,"end":5349.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5349.321593750001,"end":5349.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5349.642218749999,"end":5353.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5353.94534375,"end":5370.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5371.309718750001,"end":5395.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5394.225968750001,"end":5394.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5394.66471875,"end":5394.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5397.077843749999,"end":5398.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5398.157843749999,"end":5398.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5398.394093750001,"end":5398.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5399.794718749999,"end":5402.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5418.86346875,"end":5421.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5421.61409375,"end":5422.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5424.364718750001,"end":5425.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5426.40659375,"end":5435.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5435.704718749999,"end":5439.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5439.95721875,"end":5444.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5445.593468749999,"end":5445.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5446.774718750001,"end":5446.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5446.79159375,"end":5447.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5448.090968750001,"end":5448.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5448.10784375,"end":5456.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5455.532843749999,"end":5455.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5456.03909375,"end":5474.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5466.33284375,"end":5466.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5466.34971875,"end":5466.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5474.58471875,"end":5474.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5474.82096875,"end":5478.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5478.82034375,"end":5487.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5482.9715937500005,"end":5483.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5485.772843750001,"end":5486.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5487.07221875,"end":5487.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5487.62909375,"end":5488.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5487.645968750001,"end":5488.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5488.6415937500005,"end":5503.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5503.440968750001,"end":5519.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5519.843468749999,"end":5537.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5538.642218749999,"end":5545.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5545.66221875,"end":5549.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5549.374718749999,"end":5564.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5565.33846875,"end":5567.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5568.089093750001,"end":5568.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5568.10596875,"end":5574.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5574.01221875,"end":5574.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5574.315968750001,"end":5580.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5581.42034375,"end":5601.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5601.75471875,"end":5607.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5607.49221875,"end":5609.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5609.1122187500005,"end":5609.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5609.12909375,"end":5609.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5609.382218750001,"end":5613.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5609.39909375,"end":5609.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5614.56284375,"end":5617.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5618.8153437500005,"end":5638.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5621.92034375,"end":5622.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5635.75784375,"end":5636.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5638.677218750001,"end":5638.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5638.913468750001,"end":5643.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5643.52034375,"end":5664.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5665.94721875,"end":5689.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5689.3865937499995,"end":5706.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5706.970343749999,"end":5714.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5714.02409375,"end":5720.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5719.60971875,"end":5719.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5720.97659375,"end":5776.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5776.967843750001,"end":5784.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5784.038468750001,"end":5788.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5789.50596875,"end":5789.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5789.97846875,"end":5792.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5790.130343750001,"end":5791.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5792.35784375,"end":5792.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5792.796593749999,"end":5794.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5792.93159375,"end":5792.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5794.028468750001,"end":5814.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5800.27221875,"end":5800.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5801.08221875,"end":5801.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5808.96284375,"end":5808.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5808.979718750001,"end":5809.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5814.177218750001,"end":5822.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5814.19409375,"end":5814.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5814.2615937499995,"end":5814.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5822.3447187500005,"end":5827.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5822.36159375,"end":5822.513468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5824.217843750001,"end":5824.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5825.466593749999,"end":5825.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5825.50034375,"end":5825.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5825.58471875,"end":5826.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5827.52534375,"end":5827.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5828.1834687499995,"end":5832.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5839.55721875,"end":5840.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5840.9072187500005,"end":5845.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5845.497218750001,"end":5845.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5845.51409375,"end":5845.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5845.61534375,"end":5846.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5847.33659375,"end":5848.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5848.635968750001,"end":5849.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5849.02409375,"end":5849.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5850.39096875,"end":5850.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5851.724093750001,"end":5851.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5851.99409375,"end":5855.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5856.71909375,"end":5857.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5858.8622187500005,"end":5859.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5860.583468750001,"end":5862.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5862.3553437499995,"end":5862.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5863.28346875,"end":5880.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5880.040343750001,"end":5880.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5880.4959687499995,"end":5884.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5884.765343749999,"end":5887.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5887.397843750001,"end":5887.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5887.482218749999,"end":5898.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5899.446593750001,"end":5901.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5901.85971875,"end":5903.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5903.54721875,"end":5904.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5906.044718749999,"end":5907.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5908.778468750001,"end":5911.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5912.187218749999,"end":5913.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5914.38096875,"end":5915.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5915.427218750001,"end":5916.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5916.642218750001,"end":5923.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5924.40471875,"end":5936.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5937.229718750001,"end":5937.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5937.314093750001,"end":5937.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5937.499718749999,"end":5937.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5937.85409375,"end":5937.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5937.8709687499995,"end":5937.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5937.972218750001,"end":5941.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5938.208468750001,"end":5938.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5941.78596875,"end":5944.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5941.954718750001,"end":5942.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5945.0428437499995,"end":5947.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5947.590968750001,"end":5951.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5951.26971875,"end":5952.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5952.467843750001,"end":5954.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5956.3153437500005,"end":5958.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5958.6103437500005,"end":5970.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5974.13534375,"end":5976.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5977.64534375,"end":5986.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5986.487843750001,"end":5986.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5986.50471875,"end":5986.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5986.57221875,"end":5986.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5986.6903437500005,"end":5986.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5988.0740937499995,"end":5989.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5990.6728437500005,"end":5999.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5999.751593750001,"end":6043.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6044.571593750001,"end":6050.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6050.798468750001,"end":6052.485968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6053.4647187499995,"end":6055.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6055.725968750001,"end":6060.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6060.2822187500005,"end":6064.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6065.26034375,"end":6070.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6070.4072187500005,"end":6070.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6071.55471875,"end":6075.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6076.00971875,"end":6076.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6078.608468750001,"end":6092.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6092.81721875,"end":6093.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6093.99846875,"end":6097.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6098.58846875,"end":6099.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6099.82034375,"end":6100.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6101.67659375,"end":6102.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6103.060343749999,"end":6103.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6104.747843749999,"end":6107.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6108.39284375,"end":6111.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6112.020968750001,"end":6121.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6121.724093750001,"end":6131.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6132.372218750001,"end":6137.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6137.147843750001,"end":6140.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6141.38346875,"end":6142.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6142.85159375,"end":6145.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6146.46284375,"end":6152.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6154.394093750001,"end":6156.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6156.604718750001,"end":6156.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6157.17846875,"end":6157.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6157.19534375,"end":6165.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6166.03784375,"end":6174.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6174.593468749999,"end":6179.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6179.03159375,"end":6179.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6179.68971875,"end":6202.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6202.99409375,"end":6203.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6203.34846875,"end":6216.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6216.983468750001,"end":6217.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6217.253468750001,"end":6228.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6228.171593749999,"end":6230.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6230.432843750001,"end":6230.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6230.854718750001,"end":6232.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6232.7615937499995,"end":6238.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6238.46534375,"end":6260.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6261.179093750001,"end":6273.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6273.86909375,"end":6282.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6282.036593750001,"end":6282.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6282.05346875,"end":6282.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6282.171593749999,"end":6282.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6282.795968750001,"end":6283.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6282.94784375,"end":6287.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6288.4490937499995,"end":6289.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6291.77346875,"end":6300.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6301.442843750001,"end":6302.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6304.09221875,"end":6307.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6308.07471875,"end":6308.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6308.6990937499995,"end":6313.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6313.440968750001,"end":6313.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6313.50846875,"end":6313.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6313.575968749999,"end":6314.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6314.55471875,"end":6315.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6315.280343750001,"end":6316.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6316.64721875,"end":6324.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6322.23284375,"end":6323.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6323.49846875,"end":6324.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6324.52784375,"end":6324.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6324.882218750001,"end":6328.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6330.85596875,"end":6331.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6332.290343750001,"end":6335.513468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6336.137843750001,"end":6336.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6336.9647187499995,"end":6339.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6339.02346875,"end":6370.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6371.659718750001,"end":6372.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6375.30471875,"end":6375.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6375.321593750001,"end":6379.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6379.65846875,"end":6389.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6391.18409375,"end":6393.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6391.909718750001,"end":6393.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6393.360968750001,"end":6400.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6400.532843750001,"end":6404.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6404.12721875,"end":6407.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6407.670968750001,"end":6452.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6452.339093750001,"end":6462.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6462.700343750001,"end":6466.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6469.61909375,"end":6473.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6473.97284375,"end":6474.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6475.255343750001,"end":6475.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6476.26784375,"end":6478.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6478.66409375,"end":6484.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6484.28346875,"end":6484.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6485.937218749999,"end":6494.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6494.2059687500005,"end":6497.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6494.22284375,"end":6494.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6495.70784375,"end":6496.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6497.715968750001,"end":6534.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6501.9178437499995,"end":6502.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6502.00221875,"end":6502.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6502.069718750001,"end":6502.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6502.305968750001,"end":6502.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6502.778468750001,"end":6502.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6534.790343750001,"end":6536.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6537.7772187499995,"end":6548.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6548.3240937499995,"end":6556.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6557.0653437500005,"end":6561.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6576.53909375,"end":6583.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6583.98096875,"end":6586.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6588.925343750001,"end":6589.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6589.98846875,"end":6594.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6594.42659375,"end":6596.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6596.384093750001,"end":6603.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6604.4334687499995,"end":6604.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6604.46721875,"end":6604.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6604.534718750001,"end":6604.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6604.635968750001,"end":6606.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6606.137843750001,"end":6606.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6606.15471875,"end":6606.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6606.272843750001,"end":6606.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6606.28971875,"end":6606.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6606.357218749999,"end":6607.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6607.116593750001,"end":6608.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6608.55096875,"end":6609.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6609.546593749999,"end":6609.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6609.58034375,"end":6614.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6614.102843750001,"end":6614.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6614.4403437500005,"end":6615.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6616.2459687499995,"end":6620.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6618.10221875,"end":6619.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6620.751593750001,"end":6620.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6620.7684687500005,"end":6620.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6620.78534375,"end":6621.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6620.802218750001,"end":6620.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6620.903468750001,"end":6624.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6624.7509687500005,"end":6626.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6624.9872187500005,"end":6625.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6627.231593750001,"end":6628.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6628.98659375,"end":6630.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6630.420968750001,"end":6630.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6630.5897187499995,"end":6631.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6631.770968750001,"end":6632.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6632.02409375,"end":6632.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6632.985968750001,"end":6633.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6633.036593750001,"end":6633.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6633.20534375,"end":6634.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6635.010968750001,"end":6637.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6637.45784375,"end":6637.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6638.048468750001,"end":6638.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6639.229718750001,"end":6641.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6641.91284375,"end":6642.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6643.22909375,"end":6646.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6648.1903437500005,"end":6648.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6648.67971875,"end":6650.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6650.82284375,"end":6651.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6651.092843750001,"end":6652.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6653.13471875,"end":6654.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6655.294718749999,"end":6657.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6657.555968750001,"end":6659.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6659.59784375,"end":6661.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6661.60596875,"end":6662.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6663.732218749999,"end":6666.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6666.90471875,"end":6668.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6668.710343750001,"end":6669.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6670.43159375,"end":6671.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6671.376593750001,"end":6672.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6673.300343750001,"end":6674.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6676.017218750001,"end":6677.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6679.5272187499995,"end":6680.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6680.3709687499995,"end":6682.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6682.69971875,"end":6683.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6683.6278437500005,"end":6688.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6688.538468750001,"end":6690.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6690.61409375,"end":6692.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6692.35221875,"end":6694.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6694.19159375,"end":6694.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6694.680968750001,"end":6696.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6697.61721875,"end":6698.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6698.73096875,"end":6700.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6701.16096875,"end":6701.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6701.21159375,"end":6701.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6702.173468750001,"end":6704.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6703.624718749999,"end":6703.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6704.35034375,"end":6705.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6705.76784375,"end":6706.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6706.544093750001,"end":6708.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6709.952843749999,"end":6711.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6712.905968749999,"end":6714.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6714.222218750001,"end":6714.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6715.04909375,"end":6717.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6717.749093750001,"end":6725.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6725.849093750001,"end":6726.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6726.86159375,"end":6727.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6727.907843750001,"end":6729.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6730.202843749999,"end":6730.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6730.84409375,"end":6731.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6731.68784375,"end":6734.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6736.210343750001,"end":6736.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6736.9697187500005,"end":6740.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6740.81721875,"end":6742.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6742.589093750001,"end":6745.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6746.6053437499995,"end":6747.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6747.85409375,"end":6760.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6760.64534375,"end":6766.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6766.247843749999,"end":6766.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6766.635968750001,"end":6767.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6767.07471875,"end":6768.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6768.930968750001,"end":6774.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6774.735968750001,"end":6776.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6776.9803437499995,"end":6779.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6779.764718750001,"end":6783.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6783.966593749999,"end":6786.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6786.29534375,"end":6786.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6786.6834687499995,"end":6789.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6789.552218750001,"end":6792.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6792.370343750001,"end":6792.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6792.876593750001,"end":6797.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6794.935343749999,"end":6795.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6797.5340937500005,"end":6798.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6798.546593749999,"end":6800.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6801.21284375,"end":6805.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6805.56659375,"end":6806.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6807.591593749999,"end":6808.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6808.46909375,"end":6810.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6810.882218750001,"end":6814.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6814.74659375,"end":6815.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6815.40471875,"end":6821.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6821.68221875,"end":6824.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6824.247218750001,"end":6825.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6825.732218749999,"end":6828.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6829.073468750001,"end":6830.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6832.5497187500005,"end":6834.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6834.4228437500005,"end":6836.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6836.1103437500005,"end":6850.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6850.538468750001,"end":6853.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6853.170968750001,"end":6853.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6853.71096875,"end":6856.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6856.83284375,"end":6859.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6859.954718750001,"end":6860.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6860.764718750001,"end":6861.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6862.013468749999,"end":6864.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6864.561593750001,"end":6864.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6864.86534375,"end":6864.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6864.966593749999,"end":6866.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6866.95784375,"end":6871.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6871.210343750001,"end":6872.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6873.032843750001,"end":6874.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6874.298468750001,"end":6875.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6878.2303437499995,"end":6878.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6879.24284375,"end":6881.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6881.520968750001,"end":6882.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6884.32221875,"end":6885.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6886.212218750001,"end":6886.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6886.61721875,"end":6888.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6888.47346875,"end":6890.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6891.89909375,"end":6895.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6896.0165937500005,"end":6896.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6896.16846875,"end":6898.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6898.497218750001,"end":6900.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6901.0790937500005,"end":6901.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6901.97346875,"end":6903.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6904.8759687500005,"end":6905.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6906.1415937500005,"end":6907.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6907.69409375,"end":6915.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6916.2665937500005,"end":6917.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6918.24096875,"end":6920.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6920.7215937500005,"end":6923.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6924.231593750001,"end":6925.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6925.1259687500005,"end":6927.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6927.454718750001,"end":6930.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6929.985968750001,"end":6930.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6930.357218749999,"end":6930.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6930.745343750001,"end":6930.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6930.8465937500005,"end":6930.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6930.91409375,"end":6930.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6930.99846875,"end":6931.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6931.18409375,"end":6933.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6934.10346875,"end":6935.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6936.550343750001,"end":6936.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6936.66846875,"end":6936.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6936.702218750001,"end":6938.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6937.2928437499995,"end":6939.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6939.14909375,"end":6940.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6940.7353437500005,"end":6941.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6942.270968750001,"end":6943.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6943.857218749999,"end":6950.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6950.708468750001,"end":6961.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6961.592843750001,"end":6961.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6962.35221875,"end":6963.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6964.51221875,"end":6966.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6967.077218750001,"end":6968.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6968.5115937499995,"end":6969.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6969.43971875,"end":6969.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6969.6590937500005,"end":6971.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6969.67596875,"end":6969.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6971.194718750001,"end":6971.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6971.5322187500005,"end":6973.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6971.58284375,"end":6971.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6973.74284375,"end":6976.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6976.42596875,"end":6977.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6978.0965937500005,"end":6979.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6980.77971875,"end":6981.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6983.20971875,"end":6984.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6984.99846875,"end":6991.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6985.403468750001,"end":6987.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6991.680968750001,"end":6993.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6993.452843750001,"end":6996.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6996.642218750001,"end":6998.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6998.717843750001,"end":7000.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7000.776593750001,"end":7002.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7002.514718750001,"end":7004.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7004.624093750001,"end":7007.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7007.49284375,"end":7009.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7009.4334687499995,"end":7011.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7012.15034375,"end":7012.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7012.859093750001,"end":7013.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7013.92221875,"end":7016.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7016.284718750001,"end":7019.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7019.845343750001,"end":7021.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7020.4697187500005,"end":7021.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7021.83659375,"end":7025.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7025.59971875,"end":7032.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7032.14721875,"end":7036.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7036.28159375,"end":7037.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7038.20534375,"end":7039.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7039.859093750001,"end":7040.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7040.31471875,"end":7041.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7042.120343750001,"end":7043.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7043.858468750001,"end":7044.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7044.90471875,"end":7045.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7046.03534375,"end":7048.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7048.33034375,"end":7049.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7049.376593750001,"end":7051.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7051.70534375,"end":7053.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7053.57846875,"end":7053.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7053.747218750001,"end":7054.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7054.590968750001,"end":7056.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7058.32034375,"end":7059.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7060.00784375,"end":7061.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7061.72909375,"end":7061.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7061.796593750001,"end":7061.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7061.897843750001,"end":7061.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7061.91471875,"end":7064.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7064.64846875,"end":7069.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7070.08221875,"end":7071.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7072.00596875,"end":7078.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7078.637843750001,"end":7085.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7085.82659375,"end":7090.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7091.41221875,"end":7093.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7094.061593750001,"end":7098.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7099.05659375,"end":7100.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7100.11971875,"end":7111.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7103.27534375,"end":7103.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7111.51034375,"end":7111.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7111.628468750001,"end":7111.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7111.965968750001,"end":7113.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7113.265343750001,"end":7113.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7113.974093750001,"end":7114.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7115.661593750001,"end":7119.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7119.036593750001,"end":7125.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7126.022843750001,"end":7128.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7128.554093750001,"end":7129.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7129.98846875,"end":7132.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7133.0428437499995,"end":7133.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7134.089093750001,"end":7141.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7141.42971875,"end":7143.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7143.269093750001,"end":7146.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7147.55534375,"end":7154.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7150.575968749999,"end":7151.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7155.604718750001,"end":7168.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7168.75034375,"end":7184.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7184.96721875,"end":7185.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7185.01784375,"end":7185.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7185.085343750001,"end":7185.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7185.642218750001,"end":7185.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7185.67596875,"end":7186.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7185.794093750001,"end":7186.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7186.97534375,"end":7187.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7187.16096875,"end":7189.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7187.17784375,"end":7187.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7189.42221875,"end":7189.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7189.439093750001,"end":7189.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7189.47284375,"end":7189.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7189.725968750001,"end":7189.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7189.74284375,"end":7190.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7190.519093750001,"end":7206.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7190.55284375,"end":7192.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7206.53346875,"end":7206.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7206.887843750001,"end":7207.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7207.61346875,"end":7208.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7208.609093750001,"end":7208.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7210.14471875,"end":7212.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7213.215968750001,"end":7214.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7227.644093750001,"end":7234.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7230.546593750001,"end":7230.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7230.5634687500005,"end":7231.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7234.1747187500005,"end":7234.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7236.16596875,"end":7236.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7236.182843750001,"end":7236.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7237.85346875,"end":7237.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7237.9715937500005,"end":7238.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7238.02221875,"end":7238.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7239.28784375,"end":7242.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7243.10159375,"end":7245.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7245.514718750001,"end":7245.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7252.770968750001,"end":7255.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7254.1209687499995,"end":7254.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7255.487843750001,"end":7290.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7291.397843750001,"end":7305.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7305.977843750001,"end":7306.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7307.057843750001,"end":7319.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7320.15284375,"end":7325.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7326.1434687500005,"end":7336.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7336.18409375,"end":7346.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7346.477843750001,"end":7351.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7351.8778437500005,"end":7357.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7358.64471875,"end":7415.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7415.378468750001,"end":7425.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7425.739718750001,"end":7431.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7431.47721875,"end":7452.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7453.65096875,"end":7453.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7453.904093749999,"end":7488.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7488.700343750001,"end":7495.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7496.3447187500005,"end":7496.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7497.0028437500005,"end":7506.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7504.5965937500005,"end":7508.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7510.249718750001,"end":7554.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7555.55909375,"end":7555.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7555.964093750001,"end":7565.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7565.41409375,"end":7565.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7565.430968750001,"end":7567.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7565.44784375,"end":7566.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7567.354718750001,"end":7580.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7574.25659375,"end":7574.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7582.542218750001,"end":7616.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7618.300343750001,"end":7618.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7618.65471875,"end":7618.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7618.9247187500005,"end":7618.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7619.987843750001,"end":7621.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7621.92846875,"end":7627.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7627.919093750001,"end":7637.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7636.45784375,"end":7637.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7637.942843750001,"end":7642.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7642.110968750001,"end":7649.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7648.94534375,"end":7649.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7649.282843750001,"end":7651.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7652.607218749999,"end":7654.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7655.138468749999,"end":7656.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7656.28596875,"end":7658.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7670.106593750001,"end":7670.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7670.140343750001,"end":7671.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7671.96284375,"end":7673.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7675.590968750001,"end":7677.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7684.23096875,"end":7702.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7684.38284375,"end":7684.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7684.97346875,"end":7685.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7685.901593750001,"end":7685.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7703.333468750001,"end":7715.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7716.360968750001,"end":7731.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7731.61596875,"end":7739.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7740.509093750001,"end":7741.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7741.97721875,"end":7745.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7746.5165937500005,"end":7747.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7746.600968750001,"end":7747.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7747.343468750001,"end":7762.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7763.712218750001,"end":7763.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7764.53909375,"end":7768.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7769.21346875,"end":7771.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7772.520968750001,"end":7786.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7788.366593750001,"end":7790.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7791.2353437500005,"end":7807.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7807.51971875,"end":7811.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7813.155968750001,"end":7821.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7821.39096875,"end":7825.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7826.200343750001,"end":7827.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7828.073468750001,"end":7836.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7837.08471875,"end":7843.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7844.30721875,"end":7853.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7854.314093750001,"end":7861.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7861.70534375,"end":7881.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7881.38159375,"end":7888.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7889.12721875,"end":7889.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7890.10596875,"end":7901.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7896.75471875,"end":7896.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7896.889718750001,"end":7897.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7897.04159375,"end":7897.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7901.86784375,"end":7904.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7904.44971875,"end":7906.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7906.98096875,"end":7909.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7909.64721875,"end":7909.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7910.11971875,"end":7910.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7910.1365937499995,"end":7910.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7910.17034375,"end":7910.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7910.96346875,"end":7926.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7926.53909375,"end":7932.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7932.58034375,"end":7937.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7936.680968750001,"end":7937.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7937.77784375,"end":7946.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7947.278468750001,"end":7954.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7955.02409375,"end":7956.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7957.4540937500005,"end":7958.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7958.939093750001,"end":7959.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7959.24284375,"end":7964.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7964.9803437499995,"end":7967.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7967.849093750001,"end":7969.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7970.279093749999,"end":7970.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7970.63346875,"end":7970.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7970.97096875,"end":7976.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7976.7928437499995,"end":7977.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7977.974093750001,"end":7995.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7980.319718750001,"end":7981.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7982.41221875,"end":7982.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7990.7147187499995,"end":7990.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7994.25846875,"end":7996.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7996.5028437500005,"end":8002.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8003.050343750001,"end":8003.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8003.151593750001,"end":8003.235968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8003.35409375,"end":8003.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8003.87721875,"end":8004.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8004.923468750001,"end":8011.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8010.99846875,"end":8011.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8011.65659375,"end":8027.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8027.97471875,"end":8031.450968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8032.00784375,"end":8034.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8034.77534375,"end":8035.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8036.3447187500005,"end":8038.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8038.200968750001,"end":8049.591593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8049.591593750001,"end":8049.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8049.827843750001,"end":8049.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8050.04721875,"end":8067.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8068.019093750001,"end":8072.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8072.288468750001,"end":8073.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8074.161593750001,"end":8081.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8081.16471875,"end":8085.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8086.210343750001,"end":8093.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8094.1415937500005,"end":8096.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8096.97659375,"end":8097.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8097.179093750001,"end":8097.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8097.600968750001,"end":8098.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8098.815968750001,"end":8098.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8098.84971875,"end":8098.950968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8098.950968750001,"end":8103.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8103.10221875,"end":8108.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8108.18159375,"end":8110.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8110.66221875,"end":8113.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8113.345343750001,"end":8116.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8116.51784375,"end":8121.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8121.24284375,"end":8123.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8123.13284375,"end":8130.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8131.23284375,"end":8135.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8135.9072187500005,"end":8136.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8138.573468750001,"end":8146.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8146.960343750001,"end":8147.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8147.82096875,"end":8156.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8157.49034375,"end":8160.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8160.983468750001,"end":8168.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8167.1259687500005,"end":8169.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8169.032843750001,"end":8177.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8171.31096875,"end":8171.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8177.77409375,"end":8186.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8186.97096875,"end":8188.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8188.28721875,"end":8192.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8193.332843750002,"end":8198.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8198.918468750002,"end":8214.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8214.22409375,"end":8214.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8214.24096875,"end":8214.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8214.747218750003,"end":8214.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8214.93284375,"end":8214.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8214.96659375,"end":8215.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8215.523468750001,"end":8216.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8215.540343749999,"end":8216.805968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8216.97471875,"end":8230.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8218.054718750001,"end":8219.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8219.52284375,"end":8219.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8219.57346875,"end":8219.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8220.062843750002,"end":8220.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8220.315968750001,"end":8220.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8230.761593750001,"end":8242.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8235.773468750001,"end":8236.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8236.347218750001,"end":8236.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8237.359718750002,"end":8238.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8239.92471875,"end":8240.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8240.886593750001,"end":8243.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8248.68284375,"end":8250.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8251.73721875,"end":8254.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8258.43659375,"end":8262.790343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8264.730968750002,"end":8265.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8268.949718750002,"end":8271.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8271.07596875,"end":8271.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8271.41346875,"end":8277.555968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8278.77096875,"end":8279.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8279.85096875,"end":8307.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8307.711593750002,"end":8315.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8307.930968750003,"end":8308.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8315.42346875,"end":8316.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8316.942218750002,"end":8331.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8332.602218750002,"end":8345.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8344.97159375,"end":8347.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8348.059718750003,"end":8372.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8372.17409375,"end":8376.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8377.371593750002,"end":8380.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8381.489093750002,"end":8389.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8386.079093750002,"end":8386.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8390.196593750003,"end":8390.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8391.00659375,"end":8397.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8397.621593750002,"end":8399.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8401.367843750002,"end":8409.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8409.855968750002,"end":8410.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8411.57721875,"end":8415.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8415.69471875,"end":8416.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8416.72409375,"end":8417.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8418.715343750002,"end":8423.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8425.043468750002,"end":8429.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8430.409718750001,"end":8432.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8433.582218750002,"end":8436.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8437.109093750001,"end":8439.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8440.77096875,"end":8443.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8444.41596875,"end":8446.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8447.402843750002,"end":8449.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8450.32221875,"end":8453.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8453.86596875,"end":8455.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8455.82346875,"end":8461.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8461.274093750002,"end":8462.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8462.370968750001,"end":8472.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8472.546593750001,"end":8474.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8475.22971875,"end":8479.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8482.165343750003,"end":8488.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8489.438468750002,"end":8490.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8491.649093750002,"end":8492.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8493.08346875,"end":8502.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8498.26409375,"end":8498.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8498.56784375,"end":8499.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8502.870968750001,"end":8508.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8509.266593750002,"end":8510.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8510.59971875,"end":8512.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8513.637218750002,"end":8514.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8516.10096875,"end":8517.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8517.77159375,"end":8519.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8519.47596875,"end":8526.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8526.52971875,"end":8527.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8527.91346875,"end":8528.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8529.01034375,"end":8533.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8534.79846875,"end":8537.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8538.81471875,"end":8540.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8540.384093750003,"end":8547.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8545.851593750001,"end":8546.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8547.42096875,"end":8549.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8550.45846875,"end":8554.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8555.26784375,"end":8559.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8559.942218750002,"end":8566.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8567.18159375,"end":8571.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8572.649093750002,"end":8575.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8575.973468750002,"end":8577.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8577.27284375,"end":8577.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8577.289718750002,"end":8577.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8578.133468750002,"end":8592.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8590.53659375,"end":8591.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8591.59971875,"end":8591.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8593.253468750001,"end":8608.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8608.94721875,"end":8631.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8610.094718750002,"end":8610.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8618.24534375,"end":8618.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8618.32971875,"end":8618.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8618.734718750002,"end":8618.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8628.30284375,"end":8628.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8631.79596875,"end":8632.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8632.605968750002,"end":8636.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8637.53346875,"end":8640.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8641.414718750002,"end":8643.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8644.40159375,"end":8651.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8651.742218750001,"end":8660.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8661.20909375,"end":8669.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8670.422843750002,"end":8671.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8671.92471875,"end":8678.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8679.484718750002,"end":8680.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8681.340968750003,"end":8681.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8682.336593750002,"end":8683.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8684.024093750002,"end":8686.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8687.46659375,"end":8688.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8689.67721875,"end":8698.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8697.675968750002,"end":8697.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8700.899093750002,"end":8704.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8706.282218750002,"end":8715.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8715.22596875,"end":8717.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8720.153468750003,"end":8720.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8720.96346875,"end":8723.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8724.254093750002,"end":8725.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8725.82346875,"end":8726.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8727.03846875,"end":8729.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8730.278468750003,"end":8737.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8737.66971875,"end":8737.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8738.699093750001,"end":8742.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8743.238468750002,"end":8753.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8754.49409375,"end":8756.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8756.907218750002,"end":8774.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8774.575343750003,"end":8785.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8786.539718750002,"end":8811.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8792.04096875,"end":8792.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8792.05784375,"end":8792.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8792.969093750002,"end":8793.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8811.93659375,"end":8826.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8829.874718750001,"end":8833.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8833.992218750001,"end":8839.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8839.51034375,"end":8851.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8852.504093750002,"end":8856.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8856.469718750002,"end":8873.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8874.137843750003,"end":8875.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8876.179718750001,"end":8878.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8879.554718750001,"end":8882.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8883.43596875,"end":8886.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8886.96284375,"end":8887.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8886.996593750002,"end":8892.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8896.125968750002,"end":8898.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8898.859718750002,"end":8901.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8901.52596875,"end":8911.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8911.144718750002,"end":8941.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8942.009093750003,"end":8947.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8947.645343750002,"end":8948.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8948.421593750001,"end":8964.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8965.53284375,"end":8977.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8978.762843750003,"end":8985.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8985.64784375,"end":8986.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8987.48721875,"end":8989.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8989.512218750002,"end":8996.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8997.325343750003,"end":8998.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8999.265968750002,"end":9002.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9003.231593750003,"end":9004.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9004.800968750002,"end":9010.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9011.230343750001,"end":9013.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9015.22971875,"end":9021.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9023.009093750003,"end":9036.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9037.31909375,"end":9048.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9048.456593750001,"end":9051.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9051.325343750003,"end":9053.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9053.957843750002,"end":9061.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9060.218468750001,"end":9061.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9061.58534375,"end":9061.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9061.754093750002,"end":9062.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9062.83409375,"end":9068.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9069.70221875,"end":9071.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9071.96346875,"end":9072.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9072.11534375,"end":9072.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9072.18284375,"end":9072.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9073.364093750002,"end":9074.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9073.39784375,"end":9078.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9076.08096875,"end":9079.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9079.50659375,"end":9080.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9080.367218750001,"end":9095.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9080.687843750002,"end":9085.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9096.887843750003,"end":9099.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9100.39784375,"end":9103.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9103.75596875,"end":9119.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9104.734718750002,"end":9105.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9110.050343750001,"end":9110.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9110.20221875,"end":9110.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9110.23596875,"end":9110.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9110.320343750001,"end":9110.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9110.35409375,"end":9110.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9115.04534375,"end":9115.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9116.327843750001,"end":9127.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9125.879093750002,"end":9127.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9127.95471875,"end":9133.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9127.97159375,"end":9129.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9132.359093750001,"end":9134.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9133.945343750001,"end":9181.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9135.261593750001,"end":9137.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9138.56909375,"end":9139.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9147.32721875,"end":9147.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9147.985343750002,"end":9148.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9148.37346875,"end":9148.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9177.415343750003,"end":9177.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9177.48284375,"end":9177.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9177.53346875,"end":9177.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9177.58409375,"end":9177.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9177.65159375,"end":9177.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9178.815968750001,"end":9179.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9179.355968750002,"end":9180.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9181.02659375,"end":9181.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9181.617218750001,"end":9181.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9181.718468750001,"end":9181.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9181.735343750002,"end":9181.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9181.769093750001,"end":9185.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9204.26346875,"end":9207.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9207.43596875,"end":9208.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9208.144718750002,"end":9210.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9210.945968750002,"end":9211.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9214.793468750002,"end":9215.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9216.582218750002,"end":9216.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9216.632843750001,"end":9217.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9217.105343750001,"end":9220.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9222.167843750001,"end":9224.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9225.15471875,"end":9230.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9231.90471875,"end":9235.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9235.887218750002,"end":9240.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9241.50659375,"end":9242.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9242.18159375,"end":9245.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9246.87284375,"end":9247.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9248.62784375,"end":9249.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9250.26471875,"end":9254.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9255.546593750001,"end":9258.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9258.73596875,"end":9260.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9261.48659375,"end":9262.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9262.81971875,"end":9263.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9264.422843750002,"end":9265.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9266.29596875,"end":9268.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9268.55721875,"end":9270.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9271.695968750002,"end":9273.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9273.46784375,"end":9274.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9274.800968750002,"end":9277.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9278.024093750002,"end":9279.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9279.964718750001,"end":9283.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9283.79534375,"end":9285.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9285.80346875,"end":9287.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9287.84534375,"end":9289.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9289.988468750002,"end":9295.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9296.33346875,"end":9296.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9297.41346875,"end":9303.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9304.652843750002,"end":9306.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9306.644093750001,"end":9310.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9310.407218750002,"end":9314.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9314.76096875,"end":9315.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9315.97596875,"end":9318.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9318.945968750002,"end":9320.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9320.835968750001,"end":9321.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9321.747218750003,"end":9324.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9325.375343750002,"end":9326.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9327.72096875,"end":9329.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9329.745968750001,"end":9330.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9330.47159375,"end":9335.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9336.52971875,"end":9338.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9340.63034375,"end":9343.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9344.24159375,"end":9345.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9346.840343750002,"end":9347.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9347.954093750002,"end":9350.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9350.805968750003,"end":9355.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9355.446593750003,"end":9356.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9358.079093750002,"end":9359.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9359.969093750002,"end":9360.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9360.964718750001,"end":9363.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9363.95159375,"end":9365.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9366.347843750002,"end":9369.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9369.60471875,"end":9373.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9374.27909375,"end":9378.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9378.97034375,"end":9380.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9381.61971875,"end":9382.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9382.51409375,"end":9384.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9385.855343750001,"end":9386.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9386.969093750002,"end":9392.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9392.79096875,"end":9394.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9395.254718750002,"end":9399.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9399.321593750003,"end":9401.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9402.578468750002,"end":9403.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9404.265968750002,"end":9406.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9407.15159375,"end":9407.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9408.34971875,"end":9408.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9409.21034375,"end":9409.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9410.070968750002,"end":9412.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9413.749718750001,"end":9415.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9415.707218750002,"end":9416.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9417.58034375,"end":9421.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9422.47409375,"end":9423.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9423.95909375,"end":9425.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9426.43971875,"end":9430.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9430.472843750002,"end":9432.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9433.122218750003,"end":9433.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9435.180968750003,"end":9435.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9435.737843750001,"end":9436.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9437.644718750002,"end":9437.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9438.08346875,"end":9439.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9440.42909375,"end":9441.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9441.812843750002,"end":9444.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9444.95159375,"end":9446.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9447.16221875,"end":9448.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9449.187218750001,"end":9449.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9450.891593750002,"end":9452.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9452.76471875,"end":9454.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9455.22846875,"end":9456.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9457.30409375,"end":9458.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9460.03784375,"end":9461.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9462.40034375,"end":9466.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9466.551593750002,"end":9467.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9468.559718750003,"end":9474.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9474.75284375,"end":9476.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9476.74409375,"end":9477.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9478.212218750003,"end":9481.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9482.81909375,"end":9483.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9483.359093750001,"end":9484.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9485.097218750001,"end":9486.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9486.362843750001,"end":9487.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9487.71284375,"end":9489.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9489.97409375,"end":9490.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9490.09221875,"end":9493.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9494.277218750001,"end":9496.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9497.48346875,"end":9498.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9498.445343750001,"end":9500.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9500.68971875,"end":9501.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9501.53346875,"end":9502.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9502.292843750001,"end":9503.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9503.71034375,"end":9513.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9514.071593750003,"end":9519.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9520.68659375,"end":9521.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9522.52596875,"end":9529.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9530.305343750002,"end":9532.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9532.87034375,"end":9533.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9534.65909375,"end":9535.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9535.587218750003,"end":9543.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9543.88971875,"end":9544.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9545.62784375,"end":9546.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9547.112843750001,"end":9548.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9548.88471875,"end":9552.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9552.816593750002,"end":9554.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9555.06096875,"end":9555.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9557.085968750001,"end":9558.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9558.97596875,"end":9560.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9561.33846875,"end":9561.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9562.55346875,"end":9567.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9567.91971875,"end":9568.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9569.28659375,"end":9569.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9569.759093750003,"end":9570.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9571.26096875,"end":9571.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9572.72909375,"end":9573.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9575.074718750002,"end":9576.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9576.40784375,"end":9578.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9579.141593750002,"end":9582.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9582.617843750002,"end":9585.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9586.07721875,"end":9587.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9588.473468750002,"end":9590.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9591.679718750001,"end":9592.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9593.687843750002,"end":9597.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9598.14284375,"end":9598.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9599.273468750001,"end":9600.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9601.484093750001,"end":9602.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9603.340343750002,"end":9605.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9605.972843750002,"end":9606.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9607.356593750003,"end":9608.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9609.33096875,"end":9610.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9611.91284375,"end":9615.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9615.743468750003,"end":9616.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9616.65471875,"end":9619.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9620.33346875,"end":9621.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9622.24034375,"end":9624.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9624.56909375,"end":9625.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9625.851593750001,"end":9627.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9628.88909375,"end":9629.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9630.15471875,"end":9631.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9632.348468750002,"end":9637.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9637.96784375,"end":9648.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9644.54909375,"end":9644.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9644.61659375,"end":9644.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9646.590968750003,"end":9654.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9649.45971875,"end":9649.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9655.450343750003,"end":9658.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9659.196593750003,"end":9662.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9661.10346875,"end":9661.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9662.33534375,"end":9671.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9663.22971875,"end":9665.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9671.734718750002,"end":9673.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9674.434718750003,"end":9676.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9677.30346875,"end":9683.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9683.699093750001,"end":9685.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9685.656593750002,"end":9686.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9686.669093750003,"end":9688.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9689.43659375,"end":9691.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9691.84971875,"end":9692.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9692.96346875,"end":9694.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9694.65096875,"end":9698.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9697.28346875,"end":9701.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9698.59971875,"end":9699.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9702.700343750003,"end":9703.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9703.324718750002,"end":9708.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9717.347843750002,"end":9719.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9719.74409375,"end":9720.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9725.38034375,"end":9727.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9727.574093750001,"end":9737.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9727.65846875,"end":9727.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9731.016593750002,"end":9731.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9737.61471875,"end":9737.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9737.90159375,"end":9738.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9738.37409375,"end":9748.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9748.785968750002,"end":9751.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9752.059718750003,"end":9756.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9756.312218750001,"end":9759.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9756.49784375,"end":9756.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9759.636593750001,"end":9759.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9759.653468750003,"end":9759.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9759.87284375,"end":9759.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9759.906593750002,"end":9762.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9762.74159375,"end":9763.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9763.51784375,"end":9769.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9764.496593750002,"end":9765.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9767.78721875,"end":9769.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9769.289093750001,"end":9769.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9769.96409375,"end":9778.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9778.840343750002,"end":9778.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9778.890968750002,"end":9788.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9778.90784375,"end":9780.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9781.82721875,"end":9782.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9788.57721875,"end":9789.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9789.30284375,"end":9792.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9792.964718750001,"end":9802.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9795.023468750001,"end":9795.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9796.086593750002,"end":9798.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9802.02659375,"end":9802.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9802.53284375,"end":9802.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9802.54971875,"end":9802.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9802.566593750002,"end":9802.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9803.66346875,"end":9806.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9807.46034375,"end":9811.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9811.93221875,"end":9812.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9813.51846875,"end":9814.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9814.19346875,"end":9815.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9814.21034375,"end":9815.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9815.324093750001,"end":9824.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9824.41971875,"end":9824.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9824.925968750002,"end":9824.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9824.94284375,"end":9825.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9825.027218750001,"end":9827.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9828.250343750002,"end":9834.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9835.01721875,"end":9835.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9835.962218750003,"end":9837.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9838.172843750002,"end":9838.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9839.219093750002,"end":9842.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9843.35346875,"end":9852.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9853.49534375,"end":9855.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9856.53284375,"end":9857.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9857.81534375,"end":9859.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9860.12721875,"end":9860.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9861.004718750002,"end":9861.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9862.30409375,"end":9863.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9863.56971875,"end":9867.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9866.387843750003,"end":9876.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9877.37346875,"end":9878.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9878.402843750002,"end":9892.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9892.72971875,"end":9893.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9895.075343750003,"end":9897.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9897.488468750002,"end":9900.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9901.774718750003,"end":9903.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9907.17471875,"end":9907.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9907.96784375,"end":9908.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9909.149093750002,"end":9909.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9910.195343750001,"end":9917.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9917.637218750002,"end":9919.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9919.61159375,"end":9936.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9937.785968750002,"end":9938.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9938.781593750002,"end":9940.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9940.95846875,"end":9945.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9942.29159375,"end":9942.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9945.14346875,"end":9945.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9945.649718750003,"end":9948.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9948.24846875,"end":9949.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9950.070968750002,"end":9952.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9953.024093750002,"end":9953.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9954.711593750002,"end":9957.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9958.17096875,"end":9958.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9958.356593750003,"end":9959.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9960.22971875,"end":9971.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9973.24034375,"end":9976.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9976.159718750001,"end":9976.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9976.952843750001,"end":9976.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9977.18909375,"end":9981.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9982.47096875,"end":9983.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9984.00659375,"end":9984.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9984.023468750001,"end":9984.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9984.10784375,"end":9984.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9984.293468750002,"end":9985.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9985.137218750002,"end":9985.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9985.15409375,"end":9985.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9985.305968750003,"end":9985.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9986.031593750002,"end":9987.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9988.309718750003,"end":9996.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9996.831593750001,"end":9997.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9997.40534375,"end":10000.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10000.577843750001,"end":10001.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10002.687218750001,"end":10003.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10004.864093750002,"end":10010.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10011.32721875,"end":10026.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10026.02534375,"end":10048.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10048.941593750002,"end":10049.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10049.903468750003,"end":10056.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10056.434093750002,"end":10056.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10056.687218750001,"end":10061.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10061.95221875,"end":10063.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10063.63971875,"end":10064.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10064.500343750002,"end":10065.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10064.550968750002,"end":10064.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10064.73659375,"end":10065.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10065.68159375,"end":10069.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10070.64284375,"end":10071.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10071.891593750002,"end":10075.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10073.42721875,"end":10078.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10078.574093750001,"end":10078.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10078.962218750003,"end":10082.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10082.10096875,"end":10082.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10083.113468750002,"end":10094.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10083.164093750001,"end":10084.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10089.89721875,"end":10089.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10089.914093750001,"end":10090.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10093.52534375,"end":10097.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10094.976593750001,"end":10095.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10095.43221875,"end":10095.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10097.558468750001,"end":10100.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10405.61159375,"end":10407.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10409.492843750002,"end":10413.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10422.570968750002,"end":10424.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10423.667843750001,"end":10424.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10427.17784375,"end":10427.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10428.03846875,"end":10443.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10444.22159375,"end":10482.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10482.44346875,"end":10501.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10503.43596875,"end":10505.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10505.984093750001,"end":10510.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10510.641593750002,"end":10519.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10520.192843750003,"end":10527.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10528.79909375,"end":10551.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10551.833468750003,"end":10566.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10566.02534375,"end":10567.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10567.746593750002,"end":10573.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10572.657218750002,"end":10575.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10574.496593750002,"end":10583.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10583.59221875,"end":10584.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10584.26721875,"end":10587.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10587.743468750003,"end":10590.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10590.88221875,"end":10591.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10591.523468750001,"end":10596.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10595.18534375,"end":10596.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10596.83909375,"end":10599.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10600.21409375,"end":10603.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10603.082843750002,"end":10603.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10603.437218750001,"end":10603.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10603.454093750002,"end":10603.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10604.280968750001,"end":10605.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10605.934718750003,"end":10611.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10609.394093750001,"end":10671.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10672.067843750003,"end":10672.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10673.046593750001,"end":10673.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10673.65409375,"end":10673.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10673.82284375,"end":10682.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10682.969093750002,"end":10701.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10702.223468750002,"end":10716.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10717.15784375,"end":10728.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10728.54846875,"end":10730.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10731.113468750002,"end":10732.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10732.868468750003,"end":10742.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10743.398468750001,"end":10743.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10744.309718750003,"end":10750.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10749.726593750001,"end":10765.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10753.18596875,"end":10753.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10765.47096875,"end":10770.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10770.398468750001,"end":10776.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10777.165343750003,"end":10784.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10785.36659375,"end":10828.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10829.410343750002,"end":10836.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10836.34596875,"end":10848.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10849.05284375,"end":10850.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10851.347843750002,"end":10882.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10883.359718750002,"end":10902.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10903.019093750001,"end":10917.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10917.41346875,"end":10927.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10926.40784375,"end":10926.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10927.487843750001,"end":10937.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10936.95471875,"end":10938.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10938.675968750002,"end":10940.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10941.86534375,"end":10948.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10949.374718750001,"end":10950.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10950.218468750001,"end":10951.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10951.46721875,"end":10954.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10955.196593750003,"end":10956.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10957.12034375,"end":10968.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10968.679718750001,"end":10970.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10971.008468750002,"end":10972.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10973.08409375,"end":10974.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10974.855968750002,"end":10996.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10996.87784375,"end":10999.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10999.78034375,"end":11000.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11001.737843750001,"end":11002.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11002.902218750001,"end":11007.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11007.82971875,"end":11009.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11009.601593750001,"end":11012.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11012.774093750002,"end":11014.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11014.613468750002,"end":11017.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11017.667843750001,"end":11020.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11020.92471875,"end":11025.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11032.78784375,"end":11033.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11035.302218750003,"end":11036.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11036.972843750002,"end":11037.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11039.925968750002,"end":11041.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11040.17909375,"end":11041.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11042.457218750002,"end":11045.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11047.215968750003,"end":11050.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11048.835968750001,"end":11052.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11051.82284375,"end":11052.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11052.34596875,"end":11056.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11058.066593750002,"end":11058.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11060.074718750002,"end":11063.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11063.247218750003,"end":11063.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11063.73659375,"end":11066.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11066.993468750003,"end":11067.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11067.22971875,"end":11079.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11079.160343750002,"end":11079.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11079.49784375,"end":11087.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11081.438468750002,"end":11081.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11084.62784375,"end":11084.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11084.695343750001,"end":11085.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11088.542843750001,"end":11093.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11093.284718750001,"end":11102.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11094.17909375,"end":11094.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11100.92909375,"end":11100.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11100.97971875,"end":11101.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11102.684093750002,"end":11103.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11103.81471875,"end":11105.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11105.468468750001,"end":11106.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11106.09284375,"end":11108.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11108.792843750001,"end":11111.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11113.230968750002,"end":11118.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11119.42409375,"end":11123.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11123.49096875,"end":11125.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11124.098468750002,"end":11129.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11126.984093750001,"end":11127.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11129.24534375,"end":11130.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11130.44346875,"end":11133.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11134.004093750002,"end":11135.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11136.113468750002,"end":11140.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11141.074718750002,"end":11149.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11150.625968750002,"end":11153.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11152.667843750001,"end":11153.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11153.32596875,"end":11153.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11153.680343750002,"end":11155.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11155.418468750002,"end":11161.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11157.91596875,"end":11158.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11158.320968750002,"end":11158.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11161.29096875,"end":11169.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11171.280968750001,"end":11174.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11172.664718750002,"end":11173.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11174.75721875,"end":11175.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11175.01034375,"end":11180.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11175.027218750001,"end":11175.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11180.24159375,"end":11180.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11180.410343750002,"end":11194.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11195.68221875,"end":11212.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11213.164718750002,"end":11227.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11227.64346875,"end":11233.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11234.359718750002,"end":11245.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11245.581593750001,"end":11250.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11251.133468750002,"end":11253.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11254.305968750003,"end":11256.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11256.73596875,"end":11257.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11258.27159375,"end":11260.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11261.190968750001,"end":11262.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11261.22471875,"end":11261.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11262.55784375,"end":11276.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11276.445968750002,"end":11287.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11288.039093750001,"end":11294.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11295.56534375,"end":11296.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11296.594718750002,"end":11296.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11296.898468750001,"end":11300.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11300.273468750001,"end":11308.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11308.508468750002,"end":11309.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11309.90909375,"end":11312.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11312.96346875,"end":11314.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11316.06846875,"end":11316.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11316.692843750003,"end":11322.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11323.72971875,"end":11324.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11325.315968750001,"end":11328.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11329.028468750003,"end":11340.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11342.91659375,"end":11346.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11346.91596875,"end":11348.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11349.12659375,"end":11350.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11351.438468750002,"end":11355.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11356.29846875,"end":11362.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11361.69846875,"end":11364.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11365.22534375,"end":11366.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11367.58784375,"end":11373.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11374.118468750003,"end":11392.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11393.187218750001,"end":11393.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11394.469718750002,"end":11407.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11408.340968750003,"end":11410.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11410.500968750002,"end":11410.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11410.804718750001,"end":11414.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11411.665343750003,"end":11412.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11412.62721875,"end":11416.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11414.80409375,"end":11415.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11417.082218750002,"end":11417.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11417.74034375,"end":11420.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11421.739718750003,"end":11423.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11423.511593750001,"end":11424.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11424.574718750002,"end":11424.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11424.97971875,"end":11434.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11434.395968750003,"end":11434.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11435.45909375,"end":11441.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11442.614093750002,"end":11444.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11444.183468750001,"end":11444.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11444.31846875,"end":11445.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11447.11971875,"end":11451.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11453.262218750002,"end":11453.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11458.172843750002,"end":11462.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11464.51784375,"end":11465.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11465.243468750003,"end":11467.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11466.62721875,"end":11467.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11467.977218750002,"end":11468.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11468.027843750002,"end":11469.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11468.280968750001,"end":11468.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11470.22159375,"end":11477.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11478.28784375,"end":11479.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11479.87409375,"end":11480.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11480.430968750003,"end":11483.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11483.940968750001,"end":11484.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11485.020968750003,"end":11489.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11489.745968750001,"end":11497.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11490.40409375,"end":11493.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11494.032218750002,"end":11494.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11495.09534375,"end":11495.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11497.035968750002,"end":11499.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11499.60096875,"end":11504.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11504.849093750003,"end":11505.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11504.882843750001,"end":11506.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11506.18221875,"end":11519.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11507.07659375,"end":11507.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11519.36159375,"end":11522.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11524.37346875,"end":11527.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11527.07346875,"end":11528.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11530.54971875,"end":11532.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11533.01346875,"end":11533.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11534.75159375,"end":11536.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11536.911593750003,"end":11542.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11540.438468750002,"end":11542.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11543.03721875,"end":11544.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11545.804718750001,"end":11546.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11548.065968750001,"end":11554.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11552.942843750003,"end":11553.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11553.297218750002,"end":11557.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11557.583468750003,"end":11558.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11558.882843750001,"end":11562.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11562.56159375,"end":11564.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11564.839718750001,"end":11570.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11570.374718750001,"end":11573.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11571.15096875,"end":11571.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11574.559718750003,"end":11574.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11575.21784375,"end":11585.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11586.102218750002,"end":11589.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11588.29596875,"end":11590.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11591.72159375,"end":11592.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11591.890343750001,"end":11593.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11593.66221875,"end":11595.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11596.21034375,"end":11597.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11598.79221875,"end":11604.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11599.551593750002,"end":11599.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11604.52971875,"end":11610.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11611.06034375,"end":11613.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11613.96284375,"end":11614.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11615.54909375,"end":11618.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11617.30409375,"end":11621.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11621.15159375,"end":11621.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11621.62409375,"end":11627.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11627.699093750001,"end":11635.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11630.43284375,"end":11631.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11633.95971875,"end":11634.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11635.461593750002,"end":11637.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11637.70596875,"end":11638.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11637.942218750002,"end":11652.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11647.847843750002,"end":11648.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11652.184718750003,"end":11652.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11652.218468750001,"end":11652.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11652.235343750002,"end":11652.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11652.47159375,"end":11658.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11655.79596875,"end":11655.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11655.82971875,"end":11656.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11656.133468750002,"end":11656.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11658.63096875,"end":11674.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11672.35034375,"end":11677.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11677.024718750003,"end":11681.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11677.817843750003,"end":11678.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11680.129718750002,"end":11681.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11682.036593750003,"end":11690.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11682.77909375,"end":11683.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11691.58784375,"end":11693.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11693.49471875,"end":11697.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11697.02159375,"end":11715.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11708.04096875,"end":11708.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11717.254718750002,"end":11724.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11724.17346875,"end":11724.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11724.49409375,"end":11729.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11729.45534375,"end":11734.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11733.488468750002,"end":11734.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11734.78784375,"end":11739.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11739.040343750003,"end":11739.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11739.73221875,"end":11747.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11745.942218750002,"end":11747.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11747.24159375,"end":11747.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11747.34284375,"end":11747.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11747.39346875,"end":11747.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11747.477843750003,"end":11747.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11747.781593750002,"end":11750.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11749.77284375,"end":11751.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11751.02159375,"end":11752.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11752.03409375,"end":11753.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11753.13096875,"end":11757.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11757.72096875,"end":11760.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11759.273468750001,"end":11763.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11760.42096875,"end":11761.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11761.821593750003,"end":11768.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11768.21721875,"end":11770.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11768.250968750002,"end":11768.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11769.22971875,"end":11771.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11772.250343750002,"end":11773.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11773.27971875,"end":11775.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11774.579093750002,"end":11778.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11776.50284375,"end":11777.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11778.949718750002,"end":11788.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11779.270343750002,"end":11779.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11781.480968750002,"end":11782.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11783.421593750001,"end":11783.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11788.112843750001,"end":11795.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11792.399093750002,"end":11792.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11793.462218750003,"end":11793.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11793.512843750003,"end":11794.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11795.47034375,"end":11795.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11796.26346875,"end":11828.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11830.637843750003,"end":11830.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11831.19471875,"end":11835.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11834.62034375,"end":11836.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11838.062843750002,"end":11850.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11852.085968750001,"end":11852.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11853.402218750001,"end":11853.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11853.824093750001,"end":11858.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11858.54909375,"end":11858.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11859.13971875,"end":11861.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11862.14346875,"end":11906.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11907.199718750002,"end":11908.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11909.22471875,"end":11909.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11909.27534375,"end":11909.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11909.460968750001,"end":11913.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11913.03846875,"end":11913.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11913.17346875,"end":11913.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11913.207218750002,"end":11918.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11913.224093750003,"end":11913.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11919.754718750002,"end":11934.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11922.758468750002,"end":11923.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11931.33096875,"end":11936.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11934.317843750003,"end":11934.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11936.950343750003,"end":11939.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11937.11909375,"end":11937.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11937.625343750002,"end":11937.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11939.380343750003,"end":11940.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11940.66284375,"end":11948.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11948.98221875,"end":11950.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11950.821593750003,"end":11961.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11961.402218750001,"end":11966.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11966.785343750002,"end":11968.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11968.45596875,"end":11970.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11971.66221875,"end":11977.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11979.880343750003,"end":11980.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11980.335968750001,"end":11991.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11991.372218750003,"end":12003.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11991.38909375,"end":11992.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12004.26471875,"end":12004.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12004.905968750001,"end":12005.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12005.63159375,"end":12006.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12006.20534375,"end":12006.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12006.964718750001,"end":12012.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12007.065968750001,"end":12007.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12009.69846875,"end":12012.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12012.617843750002,"end":12014.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12013.765343750001,"end":12018.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12016.39784375,"end":12017.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12017.157218750002,"end":12017.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12017.34284375,"end":12017.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12022.18596875,"end":12026.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12026.421593750001,"end":12027.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12028.29471875,"end":12029.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12030.117218750001,"end":12031.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12032.63159375,"end":12035.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12035.702843750001,"end":12039.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12040.47846875,"end":12044.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12044.612843750001,"end":12046.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12047.27909375,"end":12051.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12051.902843750002,"end":12052.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12053.08409375,"end":12054.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12055.04159375,"end":12058.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12059.05784375,"end":12061.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12062.90534375,"end":12067.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12067.37721875,"end":12072.18659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1847.222,"end":1858.345,"text":"報告委員會出席委員18人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開始開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議意思錄"},{"start":1859.591,"end":1864.052,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議．事由．併案審查��"},{"start":1877.917,"end":1901.135,"text":"請假委員脈委員玉珍等2人列席官員內政部政務次長馬世元等人主席吳昭吉委員鐘憲報告事項並案審查委員蘇清泉等27人擬具警察人員人事條例修正第35條條文及增定副表3草案等12案本次會由委員張宏祿等26人提出質詢委員楊耀等2人提出書面質詢決議依報告詢答及大體討論完畢進行逐條審查"},{"start":1905.558,"end":1931.723,"text":"二（第七條、第十條至第十二條、第十五條、第十六條、第二十一條、第二十三條及第三十四條均照委員鄭天財等18人提案通過。三（第三十五條及增訂副表三保留送院會處理。四（第三十六條照委員鄭天財等18人及委員吳立華等16人提案通過。五（本案審查完具擬具審查報告提請院會公決。需交黨團協商。院會討論時由吳召集委員中線出席說明。"},{"start":1932.483,"end":1961.38,"text":"六、條次引述條文部分文字及法制用自用與授權主席及議事人員整理。七、委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關請引述、送交個別委員及本聯席會。通過臨時提案二項,經表決通過提案三項,經表決為通過提案一項。宣讀完畢。好,謝謝。那請問各位就上次的會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏?好,沒有的話,那會議事錄確定?"},{"start":1964.824,"end":1992.767,"text":"接著介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員張志倫委員鄭天財委員黃國昌委員林倩祺委員陳俊宇委員還有蘇曉慧委員接下來我們介紹應邀列席官員原住民委員會常務副主任委員鍾欣華"},{"start":1997.058,"end":2017.746,"text":"內政部明政司專委劉立芳全序部法規司專委廖康儒行政院人事行政總處組織能力處專委曾永芳培訓考用專委賴佳陽行政院主計總處公務預算處專委黃子涵"},{"start":2025.812,"end":2045.451,"text":"其餘未介紹業席代表,請參院名單不再逐一介紹,並列入公報記錄。本次議程排定討論事項一案,並按審查委員鄭天財等16人擬具原住民委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案等二案。"},{"start":2047.395,"end":2048.497,"text":"提案說明及報告"},{"start":2064.313,"end":2082.118,"text":"主席、各位委員、各部會的代表本席所提出原住民族委員會組織法還有高金素梅委員要提出對於第三條我主要的修正有兩個重點第一個重點就是"},{"start":2083.718,"end":2101.488,"text":"過去從民國85年10月成立到現在,總共原住民族委員會的主任委員,絕大部分都是平地原住民在擔任。"},{"start":2102.355,"end":2129.74,"text":"那事實上在我們原住民族的轄區遼闊各族群非常廣然後這個三眼平眼雖然我不願意劃分但是憲法既然還是繼續存在那事實上它的實際上的一個各種狀況都不太一樣所以我是特別提出這樣的一個修正希望由山地原住民與平地原住民的輪流來擔任而且有任期的限制"},{"start":2130.64,"end":2155.069,"text":"那另外就是很重要的就是主任委員希望由行政院院長提名經由原住民族的直轄市議員、縣市議員、鄉鎮市區長來審查同意之後來任命這個當然大家會可能認為有憲法的疑慮事實上中華民國憲法徵修條文第十條第十二項規定"},{"start":2156.669,"end":2179.316,"text":"國家因依民族意願保障原住民族之地位及政治參與在原住民族自治法還沒有完成之前我們前任的蘇貞昌院長曾經說要分流自治今天的修法就是分流自治的選項之一這是第一個來說明"},{"start":2181.758,"end":2208.184,"text":"滿一九執政的時候曾經提出這個原住民族自治暫行條例在條文裡面特別明定行政院應設置原住民族自治政府自治政府的主席就是由各族群推敗然後委員來推擠這個自治政府的主席行政院所設置的"},{"start":2208.524,"end":2230.336,"text":"主席、原住民族自治政府主席、行政院長任命。所以這個都有案例,沒有什麼違憲的問題,所以這個部分請大家能夠支持。至於說這個任期四年,這種我們現行的就有很多,像中選會的主委是四年,"},{"start":2231.516,"end":2259.094,"text":"NCC的主委包括委員也是4年公平教育委員會的主委包括委員也是4年所以都有很好的案例至於這個族群委員現在是用這個聘用條例我特別修正改為5幾次請大家能夠支持在質詢的時候我會做一個比較更詳細的一個說明以上謝謝"},{"start":2262.429,"end":2272.465,"text":"好 謝謝那因為高金委員沒有來那我們接下來就進行機關代表報告一樣時間3分鐘請原住民委員會中副主任委員報告"},{"start":2279.639,"end":2306.191,"text":"主席各位委員大家早首先對於各位委員就本會的組織重視和指導表達由衷的感謝今天貴委員會聯席會議審查大院兩位委員的就有關原住民組織法的第三條第四條修正草案兩個版本本會應邀列席報告並備行請就下列事項來做一個說明第一個就是有關修正"},{"start":2307.489,"end":2334.974,"text":"本法第三條的部分政委員提案本本會的首長由三地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任首長之任命由行政院長提名僅具原住民身份之直轄市議員縣市議員鄉鎮市區長召開審查會同意以及本會首長任期保障與限制等查憲法第56條明文規定各部會首長由行政院院長提請總統任命"},{"start":2337.275,"end":2351.051,"text":"故委員提案內容系增加前開憲法明定行政院長人事任命權所無之限制與前開憲法規定有漢格之餘此外民主政治與責任政治為重要內涵"},{"start":2352.285,"end":2372.213,"text":"現代法治國家的組織政府推行政務應直接或間接對人民負責根據憲法修正條文第三條第二項規定行政院對立法院負責此來我國憲法基於責任政治原理所為之制定性設計憲法第53條也揭示之行政一體其意旨意在此"},{"start":2373.365,"end":2402.037,"text":"所有行政院掌理之行政事務應接受行政院院長之指示指揮監督,而得盡由行政院對立法院負責之途徑,落實對人民負責之憲法要求。故委員提案本會首長之任命須經具原住民身份之直轄市議員、縣市議員、鄉鎮市區長同意,恐使國家對於原住民族政策之責任有所措施,亦恐與上開憲法及憲法正確條文規定有違。"},{"start":2403.803,"end":2428.66,"text":"另外,高金委員提到本會首長兼任行政院政務委員一節,有助於原住民族事務跨部會之協調與推動,且施以行政組織法第五條第二項規定,政務委員得兼任前條委員之主任委員之精神相近,為施設行政院人事任用法規解釋之適用,敬請徵詢人事主管機關意見。另外,就針對第四條的部分,委員提案本會"},{"start":2431.175,"end":2452.161,"text":"委員均改為五己職一節本會委員其分為聘用委員、兼派委員、聘兼委員三類其中兼派委員以及聘兼委員為五己職原住民族十六族代表之聘用委員是依聘用人員聘用條例約聘禁用性質屬於公務人員有己職依據本會的初步規程附有相關興起審查聯繫會議"},{"start":2457.569,"end":2467.081,"text":"參與各種研究、調查以及主持專案小組參加部落的碎石技藝、民俗文化等相關活動而且本會作為原住民族政策統籌機關服務對象及範圍"},{"start":2470.657,"end":2488.256,"text":"擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一�"},{"start":2488.716,"end":2514.871,"text":"並且擔任機關與原住民族各組之間重要的溝通橋樑,使本會的業務推展更為順遂,談會改會無幾值,將難以使其負擔散開的工作職責恐影響本會的業務推動。以上的報告。好,謝謝副主委。好,那其餘的機關報告參閱書面。好,那機關代表報告完畢。相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄。"},{"start":2518.519,"end":2544.209,"text":"提案說明及機關報告都已經進行完畢我們現在開始進行詢答今天是司法法制跟內政兩個委員會聯席會議成員人數比較多一例本聯席會委員詢答時間為6分鐘非本聯席會委員詢答時間為3分鐘均不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2556.921,"end":2557.382,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2566.056,"end":2588.721,"text":"副主委早了,尤其上次對於人民會執行的內容我對於花納稅的錢拍主委的馬屁這件事情完全沒有辦法接受為什麼這樣看我們的賴清德總統事實上在清廉的要求非常的高很早以前他就說要杜絕拍馬屁文化的態度"},{"start":2590.533,"end":2599.86,"text":"結果我們來看看我們的原民會主委前任的幹了什麼事情花了145萬納稅人的公帑出他個人成果專刊這個人成果專刊不是在講原民會做了什麼是在講他個人的分工為業我們來看一看"},{"start":2617.935,"end":2627.504,"text":"原住民族八年施政成果專刊有沒有出 有出花了一百一十二萬頁數有兩百二十一頁我手上就是八年的專刊結果前主委移將今年花了一百四十幾萬出了一頁"},{"start":2644.5,"end":2649.945,"text":"兩百一百二十五頁一百二十五頁的書啊我當初在質詢的時候啊他說什麼他說這當然不是在推銷我個人啊他指責說我還沒有看到我的專看內容出版的時候會提供給我們參考現在出版了"},{"start":2670.236,"end":2678.042,"text":"我手上就這本書啊這本書叫什麼?原權推手 陳先啟後 宜將把路兒這本書的作者是誰?請 這本書的作者是誰?呃 園民會這本書的作者是園民會那奇怪了他提名是原權推手他指的是誰?宜將把路兒宜將把路兒 來來看看"},{"start":2697.472,"end":2725.683,"text":"具繫米儀描述主委的生平一百二十五頁有四十頁在吹捧他的生長、求學還有原因的啟蒙六十頁全部都是他的照片一百二十五頁花了上百頁在介紹他的生平到各個地方去的照片"},{"start":2727.131,"end":2751.348,"text":"這本書副主委你看過沒有我對於這樣子內容的摘要你同不同意對這本書的確是在整理過程中有多論述他個人的一些對原住民的相關奮鬥歷程他個人啊我們花公務預算在搞這種事情喔真的在討論過去這8年原民會做什麼的有幾頁有幾頁"},{"start":2758.669,"end":2778.963,"text":"我沒有進那個頁數後面還是有提到我們沒關係我幫你整理出來啦24頁24頁我下一個問題啊24頁的內容有哪一個項目是這本書沒寫的有哪一個項目是你們之前的八年成果專開沒寫的全部啊都是用棒數非常足的銅板紙"},{"start":2787.987,"end":2792.088,"text":"花了一百四十幾萬在搞個人宣傳我們看裡面嘛他的原因 啟蒙之路他小時候的照片他念書時候的照片下面60頁他到各個地方的照片這本書後面的價格"},{"start":2817.91,"end":2821.271,"text":"一本三百塊原民會買了幾本這一本書一本三百塊我是不相信放在書店的書架上有人會買的這本書原民會買了幾本我們沒有買沒有買一百四十五萬換了幾本回去原民會"},{"start":2844.891,"end":2848.753,"text":"這個標案書出出來 你花了一百四十五萬嘛 是你拿到幾本書應該都有一百 一兩百本一兩百本 所以一本多少錢一百四十五萬 你拿到一百本 一本多少錢"},{"start":2869.451,"end":2879.358,"text":"我不是買的 就是因為出版單位對 所以你花了145萬給你一百本這個東西公務的錢是這樣花的喔平均一本1.45萬拿來吹捧族委可以這樣幹喔原民會是預算太多是不是錢花不完是不是可以這樣搞喔"},{"start":2900.438,"end":2901.479,"text":"你覺得適合嗎?納稅的錢這樣花你覺得適合嗎?展現你的態度啊納稅的錢這樣花你覺得適合嗎?請說明各位報告我想當初可能也就是因為一向主委在任內8年也的確"},{"start":2928.294,"end":2956.434,"text":"有一些工作我們做了八年的一些政策不是出過一本八年成果專刊了嗎對我們也希望就是跟他個人在長期為原住民整個所以你的意思是說你們要為這一筆錢的花費持續的辯護未來還會這樣搞是不是不會不會應該因為前面幾天不會啊你如果沒有做錯你為什麼不這樣搞每一個主委都可以出啊前面前面幾天也有做過那樣的一些整理"},{"start":2957.133,"end":2971.767,"text":"有搞得這麼誇張喔?應該沒有那麼細來看一下政府機關辦理政策宣導不可以下列方式置入性行銷不可以做首長自我宣傳這個有沒有違反政府機關政策文宣規劃執行注意事項有還是沒有"},{"start":2985.305,"end":3008.846,"text":"我們還是做一個政策說明啦你現在還在講政策說明喔125頁上百頁都是他個人的宣傳跟照片然後你現在跟我講說這個是政策說明那如果按照你這樣解釋125頁上百頁在做個人的宣傳沒有違反這個注意事項那請問什麼時候會違反這個注意事項"},{"start":3015.249,"end":3020.932,"text":"請說明你要怎麼檢討可以啊來來來來來行政院主計總出預算法62條之一執行原則不可以違反我剛所講的注意事項你說要檢討有沒有違反好"},{"start":3037.267,"end":3050.334,"text":"有沒有違反剛剛的注意事項這個錢可不可以用公帑出還是要請儀將自己花145萬把那100本買回去這經費可以報銷嗎以後園民會還會幹這種事嗎你剛剛說要檢討 可以 需要多久檢討不是用嘴巴講的啦書面檢討報告"},{"start":3065.287,"end":3078.393,"text":"有沒有違反規定錢誰要出金費可不可以報銷你說要檢討給你時間檢討需要多久一個禮拜夠不夠一個月的時間一個月這種事情的檢討要檢討一個月喔委員會的效率這麼差喔這麼簡單的事情要檢討一個月喔兩個禮拜好不好可以嗎好"},{"start":3093.604,"end":3093.704,"text":"蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":3124.576,"end":3147.031,"text":"副主委副主委好副主委那我就問你今天的質詢題目啦今天質詢題目是這個原民會的組織法嗎要不要照這個政委員的版本修正還有高金委員的版本嗎是這樣你覺得今天這版本可行嗎委員提出的版本原民會這28年來"},{"start":3150.332,"end":3178.07,"text":"這對組織法的運作過程在不同政黨的執政的情況下其實都還算推動還蠻順利的這樣這順利的原因是因為原民會可以理解到這個原住民族朋友的需求大致上來說不管是國民黨執政時期還是民黨執政時期應該都是朝著要為族人做事的方向來做的嘛這沒有問題嘛對不對好那我們的原民會主委是山原平原都有擔任過嗎都有擔任過都有擔任過是好啊是輪流嗎"},{"start":3179.316,"end":3183.219,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財"},{"start":3209.844,"end":3210.329,"text":"而因為這個就是"},{"start":3212.469,"end":3240.318,"text":"市財市所市財市所我想如果照今天的我們修正的版本鄭委員的版本通過之後那現在的部分會變成是山園平原的話是一定要輪流擔任而且啊其實我看他今天的鄭委員的這個條文文字裡面其實有幾個地方我看不太懂如果我們到時候進入這個主條的話也可能要請鄭委員多說明一下第一他是要求輪流輪流的意思是"},{"start":3240.998,"end":3241.539,"text":"委員高金素梅"},{"start":3261.241,"end":3286.477,"text":"好那他第二個他說次長的部分他說應由山地原住民與平地原住民擔任啊這句話是什麼意思我也看不太懂這個到底是分別擔任各要有一席呢還是是說只要有這個山地原住民身份跟平地原住民身份就可以那如果是這樣有身份就可以那就跟原條文有原住民身份其實是一樣意思啊那這樣好像也不用修正嘛好那再來的話"},{"start":3287.458,"end":3291.962,"text":"他現在說我們現在的原民會組委如果行政院長提名之後要有全國的原住民身份的民意代表甚至是鄉鎮區長召開審查會同意後才任命之我不曉得你有沒有跟政委員討論過或者了解他的意思這個同意是要怎麼個同意法是要全體同意"},{"start":3312.399,"end":3338.427,"text":"還是是四分之三同意還是是二分之一同意他這個同意是什麼意思啊你們有瞭解過嗎還有現在這樣具有身份來同意的人數有多少人啊目前我們出大概有將近一百位不過還要再精確一點有將近一百位喔這數字不是應該很明確嗎直轄市議員大概一百零位直轄市議員有二十二位縣市議員有四十六位鄉鎮市區長"},{"start":3340.448,"end":3359.884,"text":"所以101位裡面到底要怎麼個同意法這條文看起來好像也沒有理解嘛對不對然後如果我們看他的立法理由說明的話是說哇這個主委齁如果沒有做過地方基層官員或民代的歷練將難以精確掌握原住民族的需求不利事務推動"},{"start":3361.922,"end":3388.103,"text":"所以這樣子的話副主委以你現在的角度來看過去的這個幾位主委孫大川孫主委你覺得他做的怎麼樣馬英九任命的孫大川孫主委你覺得他怎麼樣其實前孫主委很稱職很稱職孫主委有做過地方基層官員或者是民意代表嗎他是學者他是學者嗎是所以這樣以後孫大川這樣的人都不能夠來為原住民族服務沒有辦法擔任主委這樣你同意嗎"},{"start":3390.093,"end":3399.384,"text":"這是適材適用而且是院長的提名權所以你到底是同意還是不同意啊?你要一定要我像其他委員這樣問你是或否嗎?"},{"start":3400.891,"end":3423.753,"text":"當然會比較狹隘了因為如果說學者專家對原住民事務很多人都非常所以其實今天是這樣嘛大家都非常的肯認社會上優秀的人才出身不只一種更何況人事權行政院長的人事權行政權裡面包含的人事統一權其實是憲法所賦予的"},{"start":3424.193,"end":3441.839,"text":"如果我們今天可以用這樣的態度是說原民會的組委行政院長要任命的原民會組委是要經過全國的民意機關原民的需要原民身份的民意機關來做同意才可以任命上任的話那我今天是不是也可以要求說內政部長"},{"start":3443.8,"end":3462.567,"text":"以後也應該要有全台灣各縣市首長及各鄉鎮首長、區長大家一起來投票同意,同意之後才可以上任教育部長也是啦,全國的小學、國中、高中、大學、校長都來同意,乾脆連校長都要全體學生同意,這樣難道不會亂了套嗎?"},{"start":3465.248,"end":3476.833,"text":"我是覺得其實原民會在表示這個意見的時候其實你們說的很委婉啦但是第一這是憲法層次的行政權的部分其實不應該照最近的這種氛圍齁又是剝奪行政權裡面的人事權又是剝奪行政院裡面的預算配置權這都是在削弱行政權的一種手法甚至我必須說啦"},{"start":3493.621,"end":3493.801,"text":"主席"},{"start":3513.254,"end":3520.12,"text":"今天叫我們站在這裡然後如果因為我這樣子反對他這個粗糙的修法就把我說成是打壓人民那我反而會覺得你這個其實是在挑撥原住民族人朋友之間甚至和整體社會之間的一個情緒而已嘛我們是立法委員應該是要看法條訂的好不好合不合理合不合憲不是是應該是這樣嗎"},{"start":3540.424,"end":3555.356,"text":"主委、副主委我是希望如果進入主條的時候你們要把所有的理由現實上的至愛難行之處以及法條的不完備處要能夠比今天的書面報告要講得更清楚"},{"start":3556.377,"end":3579.251,"text":"因為這顯然是一個違法違憲的條文不應該這樣修啦這樣才是真正守護原住民族朋友的優秀人才可以來市財市所擔任主委以及擔任副主委這些官員這些政務官的資格和機會你是在替優秀人才守護機會這一點一定要大聲說出來啦是是謝謝副主委是謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":3585.537,"end":3610.207,"text":"謝書委員那我們下一位請審法會委員發言主席我們先請副主委麻煩副主委委員好副主委早這個"},{"start":3613.44,"end":3637.932,"text":"今天為什麼主委沒有來?主委有其他的任務,所以如果來這邊,他也請假。在我看來,今天這個原住民會組織法的修正,這個對我們原民會來講當然是一個重大的其實如果說我們今天按照這個修正案通過,這一定會是我們原民會"},{"start":3639.383,"end":3660.637,"text":"的一個重大變革是所以這個應該是非常重要的議題所以主委沒有來我有點驚訝這個這個我想剛才幾位這個蘇曉慧委員她也的質詢她也講的大概相當清楚那我大概大概看了這個目前這樣子"},{"start":3663.236,"end":3688.298,"text":"這個委員所提出的修正草案有關這個第三條大概就是第三條跟第四條的修正草案裡面大概有幾個議題他雖然只有兩條的修正但是議題蠻多的應該有五個他有大概五個變動那我想這幾個變動裡面我有一些部分我是真的因為他的我也很仔細的看了我們這個提案委員他的立法說明那有的立法說明我就不是"},{"start":3689.654,"end":3706.2,"text":"我寫的沒有很清楚我也不是很理解那我又不能找提案委員上來質詢所以可能這些問題我就等一下留待如果說有再進入大體討論或主條討論的時候有機會再跟他們溝通那有一些問題我再先跟副主委來釐清這個大概有幾個議題第一個就是說"},{"start":3710.261,"end":3736.831,"text":"在這個第三條的部分有修正案提出要由原民會主委兼任行政院政務委員這是第一個議題第二個就是在第四條就是有主委的部分要山地原住民跟平地原住民輪流擔任這個是第二個議題第三個問題是這個這個主委的任命必須經過這個"},{"start":3739.719,"end":3761.986,"text":"限制議員跟區長的同意這是另外一個問題第四個議題是副主委目前規定是三名副主委裡面兩名原住民這個修正草案做下去是三個人都要原住民最後有一個就是在第四條的時候他們拿掉了這個"},{"start":3765.046,"end":3774.258,"text":"拿掉了這個依聘用辦法的部分就是將這個我們的這個本會的委員改為無極職大概就這應該就這五個問題對不對對分析這五項這裡面齁"},{"start":3779.366,"end":3806.917,"text":"剛才這個委員在提案說明的時候也有提到我先談說組委由這個三元平原的輪流剛才蘇小慧委員也有提到因為我們這個組委不是固定任期今天假設有一個組委任命了一個組委是山地原住民結果他經過一個月體檢發現身體實在不行一個月之後辭職那就下一個要換平地原住民還是那這個平地原住民一上來之後又被週刊爆料有婚外情"},{"start":3807.813,"end":3831.939,"text":"一個禮拜再換,那又變成三立原住民他是這個意思,而且法條我實在搞不太懂,說他這個所謂輪流齁輪流擔任,因為他沒有任期制嘛,這個不是說像那其他委員會的這些主委他有主委任期,所以你可以說這一任三圓,下一任平圓他這個沒有任期制他隨時會變的嘛,對不對?是,各位委員包括他裡面也有提到四年的時間,任期"},{"start":3832.199,"end":3854.558,"text":"所以他把任期固定成4年固定成4年然後再來但是也提到說事實上現在目前憲法裡面有關山地原住民、平地原住民目前這樣的區分事實上在很多原住民的包括原住民委員這些包括提案委員自己本身都非常質疑說憲法現在這個山地原住民跟平地原住民跟原住民生活型態實際上生活型態已經已經"},{"start":3858.804,"end":3879.895,"text":"現在不是說住在山地原住民鄉的就是山地原住民住在一般都市就平地原住民現在不是啊現在很多山地原住民他也住在都市裡面啊對不對所以這個山地原住民跟平地原住民的區分方式這個本身雖然規定在憲法上面但是事實上原住民對於山地原住民平地原住民的區分本身就"},{"start":3880.655,"end":3888.828,"text":"就已經有相當大的質疑那現在還要再將這樣子大家已經有質疑更何況喔憲法判決第17項他未來未來是連連這個平虎族"},{"start":3893.922,"end":3919.955,"text":"一一樣會納入原住民來嘛那這個如果現在我們在這樣子一個學理上面我們原住民朋友大家都很有爭議的這個三億原住民跟平地原住民又把這樣的制度我們又把它擬定在新的立法上面在這個憲法判決之後擬在新的憲法上的法令裡面我覺得那是會置私益焚啦置私益焚這個是歧視啦再來就是說"},{"start":3923.574,"end":3939.932,"text":"這個我們這個我們原民會是獨立機關嗎?是原民會是獨立機關嗎?不是獨立機關行政院二級機關二級機關嘛獨立行政院獨立機關在法律裡面有規定吧在哪裡規定在哪裡?"},{"start":3945.101,"end":3967.479,"text":"中選會中選會是獨立機關我知道中選會NCC還有公平會公平交易委員會對那是獨立機關規定在哪裡?行政院組織法行政院組織法嘛所以原民會他不是獨立機關他不是獨立機關他不是獨立機關他現在說要讓主委任命主委必須經過同意必須行使同意權"},{"start":3971.644,"end":3994.663,"text":"行使同意權這個我們在這個國民黨成為多數之後他們把很多的職務都要求要行使同意權這個我們也大概摸著鼻子認了啦這個他們多數他們要這樣決定但是我第一次看到說中央行政院的二級機關的人士必須經由縣市議員跟區長的同意"},{"start":3997.737,"end":4022.269,"text":"這個副主委我們現在目前有沒有其他的機關單位的同意權是這樣行使的目前沒有那依憲法這個同意權中央機關的這個委員的同意權由地方民意代表來同意這個在法理上我比較才疏學淺是不是請副主委跟我說明一下這目前沒有這樣的相關規定"},{"start":4023.413,"end":4046.885,"text":"所以這個我就真的是有一點覺得說我們都會支持基本上原住民所提出來的這些案子我們基於長期以來原住民他們的處境在少數的這樣的處境我們都相當的同情但是這個在立法上面我覺得最基本的憲法不要說都說到憲法最基本的法理"},{"start":4047.685,"end":4062.723,"text":"要符合,不符合的話我們真的是作為立法委員很難,這個法我很難說舉手說我同意這樣子讓行政院的這個人事同意權由地方民意代表來施行,這個我是覺得"},{"start":4063.464,"end":4080.55,"text":"很有問題啦齁再加上齁我們主委現在手上有沒有資料我們現在目前的這個他在案子所提的這個各縣市議員具有原住民身份的議員目前他的族裔的分配是怎麼樣有沒有資料目前大概各組都有但是只有三個組沒有有人數啦人數一組一組講人數"},{"start":4092.691,"end":4094.953,"text":"各族人數還在統計中還在統計還在統計你們全國的縣市議員總共有101位我知道總共有101位啦他的族裔分配怎麼樣到現在還在統計"},{"start":4121.26,"end":4137.274,"text":"你們這個實在是齁我實在是不知從何說起了齁再來最後齁就改他們這個我看兩個委員版本都有齁將我們現在原民會的委員改為無給職啦那我就覺得我就很好奇這個應該是"},{"start":4140.111,"end":4148.222,"text":"是這個正面的立法我趕快看一下他們的立法理由在立法理由我都看不出有什麼立法理由啊為什麼要把目前的按照聽證條例的為什麼要改成無極值剛才說明我也沒有聽到這個提案委員的說明啊"},{"start":4155.578,"end":4156.018,"text":"接下來我們請張宏祿委員進行詢問。"},{"start":4191.328,"end":4216.118,"text":"請副主委麻煩副主委副主委人民會主委算不算政務官算算算不算政務官主委是政務官如果以今天的修法那他有任期的保障你認為合理嗎"},{"start":4217.523,"end":4245.977,"text":"政務官有任期的保障目前來講政務官應該是你回答我應該沒有任期的保障政務官不應該有任期的保障是目前是沒有對不對對啊阿如果今天的修法政務官這個委員會組委並沒有任期的保障你支持嗎我覺得這個部分因為比較沒有這樣的規定一般政務官是隨著同進退的"},{"start":4247.216,"end":4247.636,"text":"國務大臣"},{"start":4270.427,"end":4284.581,"text":"對不對?你如果對我們原住民做得不好,大家所有的原住民都會認為他不好,他反而有任期保障之後那怎麼辦?那怎麼辦?他就在那邊4年什麼事都不用做也可以4年"},{"start":4286.838,"end":4309.435,"text":"會不會變這樣?有可能他是掌管全國全台灣原住民的事務再來我要請教一下今天的修法內容還要縣市議會的議員鄉鎮市長區長同意你認為合理嗎?這個部分因為這是行政院應該要對立法院負責所以它是行政議題"},{"start":4311.255,"end":4332.159,"text":"所以應該這個部會的首長是院長提醒總統任命所以這個部分還要經過縣司院比較特別不是啊你認為合理嗎目前沒有這樣的規定當然沒有這樣的規定啊你認為合理嗎你認為合理嗎你來到這邊的你來這邊備詢不應該只有校欸你認為合理嗎"},{"start":4341.612,"end":4359.624,"text":"我問你合不合理?合不合理?我要告訴你不合理的地方在哪裡?副主委,對原住民族的業務你應該非常的了解吧?很了解齁?還差不多齁"},{"start":4362.042,"end":4385.143,"text":"好 我想請問一下你都不要看我們現在是16組對不對是你可以每一組都說出他的可以好 你說台灣組、盧凱族、阿美族、北南族、賽德克族、泰魯格族、亞美族、拉魯瓦族、甘迺甘迺夫族、邵族、周族、杜魯谷、還有達烏族"},{"start":4387.501,"end":4411.456,"text":"還沒16個啊?對,已經是13個了。還沒16個啊?賽下族、伽馬蘭族。我跟你講啦,副主委。你都說你很...我今天不是故意要給你考試。是。但我覺得這個非常重要。你所有全國的原住民裡面"},{"start":4413.171,"end":4438.509,"text":"有多少的縣市議員他有每個族群都代表到嗎?有每個族群都有縣市議員的代表嗎?目前我們看到大概有三個組沒有任何的沒有任何的縣市議員才三個而已嗎?對有三個組才三個我認為你要說清楚喔你今天在這邊講的齁要負責任喔才三個沒有嗎?縣市議員我現在說縣市議員喔是"},{"start":4444.352,"end":4466.378,"text":"才三個嗎?你是不是手頭上面有這個資料?我裡面的資料是各縣市政府縣市議員之下市的名額而已你有名額嗎?但是族群還沒有那你沒有族群嗎?所以你跟我講三個你看你自己都蠻心虛的我只問你縣市議員對不對?"},{"start":4468.749,"end":4495.086,"text":"然後鄉鎮市長或區長他當然他這個特別區如果這裡是阿美族的地區他當然選的大概就是阿美族人數多嘛對不對所以問題來了如果說照今天的修法內容然後呢要所有的縣市議員鄉鎮市長區長去同意你認為比較少數的原住民族他有投票的權利嗎"},{"start":4496.84,"end":4520.412,"text":"沒有機會投票沒有機會投票嘛對不對那沒有機會投票我們原住民族委員會的組委他是不是應該要照顧所有的原住民連他人數特別少的我們是不是要特別照顧他是這是原民會的責任阿對啊阿如果今天修法改成這樣的話我比較少的原住民族我連"},{"start":4521.753,"end":4523.094,"text":"有可能有可能嘛"},{"start":4549.537,"end":4575.933,"text":"我覺得這個不對啦我們要照顧所有的原住民啦原住民族每個人我們都要照顧到啦不管他人數多或少啦而且未來有可能會有新的組出現啊所以副主委在修這個法我們不是說不照顧原住民但是我現在問你的問題就凸顯出他的問題所在了會有很多的少數的原住民族"},{"start":4576.613,"end":4576.833,"text":"李博弈委員發言"},{"start":4616.384,"end":4638.832,"text":"來謝謝我們請副主委麻煩副主委委員好紅路委員講的就是一個接續如果這個修法過的問題先請教這個主委副主委主委是誰任命院長提請總統任命對"},{"start":4640.902,"end":4664.642,"text":"那台灣目前的這個政治體制他是由總統任命行政院長由行政院長組閣那在組成各部會包含原委會那原住民委員會裡面當然是委員制那也包含其他部會裡面包含有工程會是委員制國發會是委員制等等那如果再加入一個"},{"start":4666.365,"end":4694.967,"text":"任命之後要經過100個由六都以及縣市政府的議員以及民選區長行使同意權的話再加上任期制第一個對於行政院長任命的這個權利他就加上了一個同意權那這個行政院長現在目前台灣的憲政體制對於院長也沒有同意權"},{"start":4696.165,"end":4722.207,"text":"你對於原委會的主委加上同意權這個是對於憲政體制非常奇怪的地方加上剛剛講的你再回答我一次這一百個可能要行使同意權的這一些代表們有沒有代表到目前16組所有的聲音有沒有應該沒有辦法完全沒有辦法完全嘛"},{"start":4723.448,"end":4752.39,"text":"所以行政院長任命的委員會主委他的責任他的使命他必須要照顧到所有原民朋友的權益也就是說16族的權益他都必須要照顧到而且他必須負政治責任不是有任期保障的是不是所以你立場要堅定啊剛剛洪路遠問你那麼多次你回答不出來基於對於16族所有族人的權益的保障"},{"start":4753.393,"end":4778.622,"text":"立場要堅定阿是你相不相信你的組委會照顧到所有族人16族相信目前對嘛如果經由這一百位呃代表來行使同意權的話不出所料齁我你回答不出來有哪一族現在沒有代表那你回答的出來哪兩族代表會最多嗎"},{"start":4780.371,"end":4806.75,"text":"人口數最多的大概代表會比較多人口數最多來我請教你一下現在人口數最多的阿美族、排灣族、泰雅族前三名阿美、排灣、泰雅那所以代表有可能喔你是一百個是不敢回答出來還是怎樣趕快查出來跟委員會報告到底這三族佔的一百個比例有多少會不會這一個同意權以後"},{"start":4808.061,"end":4817.236,"text":"會造成其他15族以上的族人權益可能不被重視。這個是我們必須要先提出來的問題。"},{"start":4820.236,"end":4845.899,"text":"另外一個政委的問題我想其實所有的部會那在行政院裡面大家買大啦一樣大那所以說我相信原住民族委員會所提出來對於原住民族的朋友的權益在行政院會裡面要做相關的這些討論的話沒有說原民會比較小你自己在行政院會有參加過舉手會舉不起來嗎?"},{"start":4847.338,"end":4865.105,"text":"所以這兩個修法是兩套不一樣的邏輯一個同意權另外一個政委政委其實就是某一個總統候選人他在競選總統的時候講說這個原住民的主委以後要兼任政委他不懂嘛"},{"start":4866.257,"end":4883.573,"text":"但是這一個同意權是另外一個要凌駕目前台灣的政治憲政體制的一個制度他甚至比內閣制還要大喔內閣制你要擔任這個部會你先選上委員這一個同意權他是"},{"start":4888.939,"end":4914.159,"text":"比部會還要大萬一如同剛剛講的如果這個組委下台了請問下一個組委誰提名是要來問這一百位代表會不會同意這個人選還是說行政院長來提名這一百位再加上他不同意的這個邏輯我覺得這個政治體制必須要很嚴肅的來討論第二個第三個"},{"start":4918.157,"end":4920.761,"text":"目前有多少委員?"},{"start":4925.287,"end":4953.77,"text":"祖群委員16位祖群委員祖群委員16位16組都有是不是所以祖群委員16位裡面都有聘任的關係對對對所以有諮詢那如果沒有諮詢的話這16個執行委員是不是會造成有什麼樣的問題我們認為他們是我們最重要的部落跟園民會之間重要的溝通橋樑而且他們也分派很多各種不同的任務"},{"start":4954.411,"end":4954.751,"text":"好,謝謝李委員"},{"start":4984.334,"end":4984.734,"text":"副主委"},{"start":5005.117,"end":5032,"text":"好副主委好今天其實修這個圓明會的組織法我想了一下他其實是一個非常重要的人事制度設計的完整的變革那我認為說這個只要涉及到人事制度的設計他應該是要有一個目的所在就是無論是他希望可以更民主或者說他的這個修正的邏輯是要符合更符合目前台灣的一些現狀的"},{"start":5033.221,"end":5058.268,"text":"這其實背後都要有他的精神所在那我想當然還是先請教一下啦因為現在這個他們決定說這個主委的人事同意權要修正的版本是不是有涉及憲法的問題是 這涉及到憲法第56條各部份的首長必須要院長提請總統任命所以這個部份就跟憲法相違背"},{"start":5059.477,"end":5076.932,"text":"是的,那當然在這個憲法56條裡面寫得非常明確嘛新政院長提請總統來任命目前我們的這些部會首長那其實誓字613號是不是也有強調可不可以告訴我們誓字613號裡面的重點是什麼"},{"start":5077.739,"end":5104.537,"text":"好,四字六一三號最主要是源於憲法第五十三條所揭示的行政一體這樣的一個說法。它的意思在使所有的行政院的掌理行政事務因為受到行政院院長的指揮監督,而得經由行政院對立法院負責的一個途徑,所以落實對人民負責憲法的要求。這是四字憲至六一三號的解釋,也就是說"},{"start":5106.338,"end":5113.926,"text":"所長的任命必須經原住民議員相正式這樣的一個同意,恐怕跟4至613號還有憲法53條是相違背的。"},{"start":5117.301,"end":5138.481,"text":"好 謝謝副主委的說明其實這個是字613號寫得很清楚啦就是行政院長他要來如何的提請然後任命他的部會首長總統如何任命這個都是這個在字613號裡面提到非常重要的精神也就是說今天這個版本下去如果改成各縣市的原住民族的議員來開一個審查會同意"},{"start":5142.564,"end":5169.804,"text":"會不會跟目前這個憲法跟4613有非常大的漢格我相信這個是等一下如果真的要進到主條討論第一個要先解決的問題啦那再來其實剛剛大家都有提到了這個我也非常的好奇喔因為其實在原住民族共16組裡面我們原民會的用意就是要16組與陸軍沾越少數越應該要保障它這個是原民會存在的精神與意義嗎是"},{"start":5170.805,"end":5196.87,"text":"那現在如果照這個版本下去改成由各縣市議員他們來審查會同意會不會反而變成說你人數越多的族群越容易取得這個代表的席次越容易取得這個發言的權利也就是說最後可能會壟斷於某一些特定的族群手上反而是他來代表所有的原住民族會不會造成這樣的結果"},{"start":5197.935,"end":5201.628,"text":"如果以投票數還有人口這樣的分布,大家會有這樣的一個趨勢?"},{"start":5203.16,"end":5229.885,"text":"是啦 這個就是剛剛非常多的委員在詢問說現在你們統計全台灣的你剛剛說多少人101位總共101人如果未來我們的圓明會的主委是要由這101人來決定那請問這101人裡面的族裔的比例是多少這個就變得非常重要對吧是那你可不可以告訴我那目前至少前面前三大"},{"start":5231.186,"end":5237.034,"text":"人數的比例大概是多少?像阿美族大概20萬出頭那排灣族10萬出頭"},{"start":5241.212,"end":5242.292,"text":"阿美族、台灣族、泰雅族"},{"start":5265.535,"end":5286.301,"text":"是的 這個就是我們擔心的所以剛剛有這麼多委員在講就是說我們要重新調整這個人事制度可以來討論可以檢討都沒有問題但第一個不可以跟憲法的精神相違背第二個不能說越改越不公平越改越不民主越改越沒有照顧到少數的族群"},{"start":5287.021,"end":5302.12,"text":"這個是我擔心的所以如果接下來我們要進行任何的人事的討論都應該要在這樣的原則跟精神之下所以剛剛其實大家最擔心的就是說好如果我們現在照這個模式"},{"start":5302.58,"end":5303.02,"text":"委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":5323.86,"end":5338.59,"text":"要負責的對象是誰其實會變得越來越不明確這個是我們真的會擔心那最後我再請教一個剛剛有提到說啊說有一個版本裡面是說可以保障政務官的任期代表4年是 裡面條文有這樣的事副主委您認同嗎目前的政務官應該隨時都有"},{"start":5350.042,"end":5369.327,"text":"這個就是政務官的基本的責任嘛。您也知道嘛。作為政務官他就是要有自己有責任政治的心理準備。他坐在這個位置上就是要來負責任。他不可以說就算我做的再爛我都有四年的任期保障。這樣對人民公平嗎?那這樣他有辦法對他的工作好好負責嗎?對不對?"},{"start":5371.403,"end":5393.741,"text":"所以這個條文修下去真的是問題非常大所以我也希望大家等一下在逐條討論的時候真的要審慎這些條文修下去的意義為何真的有對我們人民比較好對台灣的民主更好嗎所以我是今天在這邊提出以上的疑問也希望我們人民會要做好充足的準備提出一個更公平的制度來應對好嗎是 謝謝好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員"},{"start":5400.107,"end":5425.514,"text":"接下來我們請陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席我們請總副主委麻煩副主委副主委早委員好"},{"start":5427.123,"end":5447.265,"text":"針對我們今天所要審查的這個原住民族委員會的組織法那我想說針對這個部分第一點就叫我們副主委這個干預主委的人選有違這個責任政治您認同嗎因為目前"},{"start":5449.154,"end":5473.902,"text":"這種體制在原民會成立以來到現在都執行得很順暢是所以我們在不同政黨的情況下我們的運作其實憲法第56條也明文規定那行政院各部會的首長應該是由院長來提請總統任命之那基於這個行政議題這個責任政治行政院也要為其所屬的這個機關施政的表現來負責所以應該這個"},{"start":5476.704,"end":5483.874,"text":"主委的這個任命,我想還是要回歸由院長來提名,應該是比較適當,您認同嗎?是,要适才適用。"},{"start":5489.137,"end":5514.059,"text":"第二點就是說對於這個主委要兼任政委的部分那如果說是有助於這個我們院內的一個橫向溝通我覺得應該還要納入一個部分就是說其他的這個不同族群的這個相關的這個委員會你包括客家委員會還有其他甚至未來還有外配等等的"},{"start":5514.699,"end":5536.985,"text":"那這個他們所觸及的這個橫向溝通的應該也都是可能跟我們今天談的有點類似所以其實如果說這個原民會主委要兼任政委的話我覺得這個人選應該要納入剛剛我講的這個部分這個人選應該是比較適合來這個兼任政委這是第二點那第三點"},{"start":5538.7,"end":5567.366,"text":"我們原民會這個16位的委員是否要擠薪的部分我認為說因為在原民會的這個工作上原民會的工作上他有可能要上山下海那也要跨鄉鎮來做服務那你如果今天你如果沒有擠薪的話我們把它變成是無擠職會不會對於我們的好人才這個難尋覓有沒有可能"},{"start":5568.146,"end":5568.326,"text":"委員會應該要堅持"},{"start":5584.341,"end":5600.953,"text":"那所以我想說這個各部會在政務上的人士應該還是要依法給行政院長用人的這個彈性因為畢竟行政團隊是一體的政策的推動也是需要經過通盤的考量來進行那這部分也請原民會"},{"start":5601.857,"end":5602.458,"text":"議員高金素梅等16人擬具"},{"start":5619.188,"end":5642.423,"text":"我們宜蘭縣有兩個原鄉一個在大同一個在南澳那之前在南澳有一個壁後溫泉他現在已經成為一個熱門的旅遊景點那當時他要落成啟用的時候也是副主委您去現場是參與出席的那我現在我發現到另外一個點是在大同鄉"},{"start":5643.624,"end":5664.751,"text":"大同鄉有一個閒置27年的一個派出所當時他是私人派出所那也被網友把他另外取了一個這個名字叫做這個寂寞派出所他已經廢棄了那在那個地方常常我們媒體只要報導說下雪了"},{"start":5667.145,"end":5688.847,"text":"民眾一窩蜂往上跑的時候第一個觸及的點就是在這個思源崖口的地方在那邊賞雪了那也常常造成那邊的這個交通會非常的混亂甚至危停的狀況那因為那邊有閒置的空間我在這裡我想說建議副主委是不是可以研究看看把那個地方來活化"},{"start":5689.928,"end":5706.234,"text":"縣政府目前已經規劃的差不多了,只欠東風,我希望說我們園民會是不是可以臨門一腳來幫忙一下,來帶動地方的觀光,也讓我們園鄉的觀光有一次的再次的發展,有沒有可能?"},{"start":5706.434,"end":5732.356,"text":"好,各位報告,那這個部分是不是我們在找縣政府跟大同相公所去會刊,去瞭解一下這個情況來怎麼協助他們?好,因為他現在那個位置是在我們原住民的地區,那依據這個第21條,我們這個基本法第21條必須取得原住民族及部落同意或參與才能夠在周遭進行整頓,那因為"},{"start":5733.276,"end":5759.741,"text":"司園派出所及末派出所的周遭也都是一些可能跟原住民保留地或是國有財產署還有林務局的相關土地有關係。縣政府已經溝通的差不多了。我想說今天跟我們副主委就教希望能夠針對這個部分仿效我們之前南澳闢後溫泉的方式在大同鄉另外另辟一個新的旅遊新的景點。"},{"start":5760.501,"end":5760.881,"text":"一﹗一﹗一﹗"},{"start":5789.557,"end":5818.448,"text":"一個月的時間一個包括會刊會刊大概一個月之後我們這個報告出來好啦看能不能在今年的這個冬天之前我們把這個地方整理好了好不好因為現在夏天而已嘛那一個月內請我們委員會給我一份這個詳細的資料跟縣政府溝通之後甚至這個一個月內的計畫未來的計畫看能不能都整理出來如果一個月內有一些規劃或想法然後剛好也提出報告"},{"start":5819.148,"end":5831.637,"text":"趕好年底就可以因應這樣的一個下雪時間好那這部分再請我們原民會那個積極辦理是是好以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝陳委員那我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝昭偉啊有請我們原民會啊我們中副主委麻煩副主委"},{"start":5847.392,"end":5873.301,"text":"哇 莊委員好早 人事行政總署只有來的副處長而已是吧好來請請請謝謝我想副主委今天其實這兩個法案裡面也不是原民會的層級可以單獨來做決定我本來以為今天人事長會來"},{"start":5874.841,"end":5900.91,"text":"那可是我就跟我們原住民族有關係的我來就教了我們看到的是我們原住民族的一個委員會組織法裡面的一個規範原民會所制的這些委員跟整個國安會主委跟委員之間都是部長層級的這又不太一樣又不太一樣那你們對這個今天兩個版本"},{"start":5901.929,"end":5913.268,"text":"你的看法是怎麼樣?我對這個議題其實我比這個還更開放本席一直都主張原住民族其實他是可以自治的"},{"start":5914.431,"end":5936.266,"text":"我都這樣認為啊我都這樣認為啊那我為什麼說我比較開放的一個理由就是說比較開放的理由就是說這兩個條文裡面啊我也不認為說把它比如說又去兼任政委以後啊就可以來做解決了那你們現在原民會你們現在對這一個態度是如何我現在要聽聽我們"},{"start":5937.327,"end":5937.767,"text":"委員高金素梅"},{"start":5956.36,"end":5975.793,"text":"而且現在目前我們的族群委員,現在16位裡面有分兩梯,一個禮拜一半的人在會裡面,一半人在各區,就是做這樣的一個交流的工作推動。我正在問董事長,你怎麼跟他說他死去?"},{"start":5979.287,"end":5986.076,"text":"我再問你說你對這樣子今天委員會裡面提出這樣的一個法案你的看法啦其實我們認為"},{"start":5990.751,"end":6012.117,"text":"因為這次提案是希望無幾指但是我們認為還是希望能夠聘用的方式來禁用繼續負責他們來的工作這樣子好啦那我就提問一些你比較熟的啦我問的比較熟的啦你像比如說我們原民會的主委你認為說全國的議員原住民的一個議員或鄉鎮長來這樣做一個審查來行使這樣的一個同意權你的看法是如何"},{"start":6020.399,"end":6043.273,"text":"比如說你也可以認為從責任政治來看或者說整個人事權的一個行使方面到底對你們會有沒有什麼複雜會有什麼自然難省的一個地方或者你們甚至於跟現狀來做一個改變的話有什麼自然難省就是談到那個風險我想真正問你的看法"},{"start":6044.942,"end":6070.151,"text":"以目前這樣在28年來原民會這樣的運作還算順暢那如果現在按照這樣的提案希望由地方的縣市直轄市跟鄉鎮市區長的審查同意我覺得當然這個部分我們也不曉得要怎麼去調整而且這是在憲法裡面明定院長提名總統任命的一個權利而且他又是政務官"},{"start":6071.601,"end":6073.062,"text":"那你不覺得他們這樣的一個提案也很有創意嗎?但限制上是很難行"},{"start":6101.824,"end":6110.576,"text":"這就是你的看法?應該說我們不太確定他細節上面要如何操作。好,那個副組長你請回啊。"},{"start":6112.099,"end":6140.454,"text":"副主委我這樣倒是這樣子認為啦原住民族我們原民會甚至我們很多原民的一個委員他希望整個原民裡面自己有更大的一個自主的一個空間這個我們可以理解啦但是我的意思就是說你以現在的這樣的一個方式對於整個原住民族的一個自治來講的話是一個突破或者說是有一個是一個有一個有注意的"},{"start":6141.514,"end":6142.915,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":6166.124,"end":6166.965,"text":"但你們這個說法等於今天如果進"},{"start":6182.719,"end":6204.651,"text":"到這個條文要進入主條的話你們怎麼樣去做說明呢?好啦我繼續再來請教啦我記得你們主委上任受訪的時候也講說時間上的一個緊迫他所要的一個任務是要去回應憲法第111年憲判制第17號相關的一個工作推動平補足的一個證明那以現在來看的話"},{"start":6206.292,"end":6231.793,"text":"這個政策跟方向如果是繼續走的話就變成說未來除了山園跟平原以外會再多一個平埔原住民那本期在過去有質詢過前任的原民會主委跟內政部長還有中選會主委你多了一個平埔族的原民以後那個影響的層面非常大那最大的我相信"},{"start":6232.813,"end":6260.41,"text":"第一個大家想到的就是政治上層面的一個衝擊就是整個選舉制度那以現在來看的話我們憲法裡面所明定的就是只有三元跟平元的一個席次那你如果讓整個平埔族我們就變成說我們在多出一個平埔族的一個原住民出來以後按照憲法的一個指示那未來產生的衝擊你們籌備的部分你們現在方向是怎麼樣"},{"start":6261.28,"end":6288.726,"text":"我們現在也成立了一個工作小組那針對社裝法的部分我們也在諮詢討論那我們7月8月大概會有17場的一個徵詢會議然後他的權益呢?權益當然是會另一法律訂正那大概在諮詢會議的時候我們的草案有分甲板乙板不是我懂你的意思我的意思是從政治層面從選舉制度來看那你怎麼辦?"},{"start":6291.803,"end":6296.424,"text":"你真的以為是地方制度法?那他們怎麼選立委?"},{"start":6316.755,"end":6320.499,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11會議"},{"start":6337.042,"end":6337.622,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":6355.514,"end":6370.684,"text":"國民黨本身對修憲是沒有興趣的啦那我的意思是你從那個副主委你從原民的一個考量的觀點來做一個出發的話你該怎麼樣去保障這些即將恢復原住民族身份的評普組的權益我談的是這個我談的是這個因為當時在線視線裡面就提到"},{"start":6379.881,"end":6403.446,"text":"就平埔族的相關權利的保障是要考量各民族發展的歷史脈絡跟現況來斟酌國家的資源分配,我們會用另外一個法律來訂定。另外一個法律來訂定,所以你們都已經規劃好了?所以目前我們的草案裡面有分假案、疑案來做一個討論,來對我們現有的原住民跟平埔族群來做一個討論。"},{"start":6404.443,"end":6430.899,"text":"我去回到我們鄭天財政委員的提案他這個提案又有創意了他說未來行政院長提名原民會主委以後還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長來召開審查會才能夠同意第一個當然我們像我們所擔心的很怕會造成責任政治的一個混亂原民會是行政院轄下的一個部會跟行政院一同對立法院負責如果說"},{"start":6431.86,"end":6435.661,"text":"原民會的首長還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長同意以後才能夠認命那你認為這個到底是誰對誰負責的問題啦當然今天有人會舉例嘛那是不是警政署長要全國警察認命同意才能夠認命那體育署長要全國運動員同意才能認命不同的命題啦但對於原住民族自治這個部分我倒認為這樣的一個提案"},{"start":6458.226,"end":6483.473,"text":"反而範圍啊那個幅度還很小不夠破例但我問的是說會產生什麼樣的影響我看你覺得不要緊我們提到因為這個部分可能會對整個原住民族政策未來在執行上因為主委是總統院長提名總統任命他有一定的任期跟政務官的身份嘛但是又要經過"},{"start":6486.011,"end":6486.712,"text":"當然會有衝突啦一定會有衝突啦"},{"start":6498.493,"end":6524.223,"text":"責任政治來講的話誰任命誰要負最終極的一個責任但是如果你是地方的民代或者不管是議員或者是鄉鎮長他所低於他去認可他也許是自己的一個政治利益或者說地方上的一個利益跟整個市政也許會有衝突的地方跟原民會的職責也會有衝突的地方甚至到最後你都人選都不一定可以做一個產生"},{"start":6525.143,"end":6525.744,"text":"所以我看你們對於今天這樣的一個案子"},{"start":6537.79,"end":6538.19,"text":"謝謝中委員 下一位我們請中嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":6576.687,"end":6595.286,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會長、觀眾夥伴、媒體記者女士先生,有請中副主委。主委好。主委好。主委,你是不是中華民國人民?是。我是不是中華民國人民?是。所以根據憲法第7條,"},{"start":6596.448,"end":6612.974,"text":"民國人民不分男女、宗教、種族、階級、黨派在法律上一律平等這意思說我跟你同不同種族我們同宗跟不同族那我們要沒有平等要平等所以我們根據憲法第17條我們都有平等參與選舉的權利對不對所以你會不會選總統"},{"start":6616.288,"end":6616.348,"text":"主席"},{"start":6635.303,"end":6662.566,"text":"現任的總統,這次總統大選你有投票嗎?有。我也有投票嘛。那不管我沒有投票支持這個同一個總統,現任的總統是我們國家的元首,也代表了你,也代表了我,你同不同意?是。那你有沒有這次參與立委的投票?有。有,我也參與立委投票嘛。我們選的是不同人,一定的啦。你不可能投我,我也不可能投原民的立委嘛。但是不管現在的立法委員,原民的立法委員,你有沒有投票給他,他都代表你對不對?"},{"start":6663.806,"end":6677.652,"text":"我當然投票投給我當然代表我自己啦齁好那請教一下目前大法官考試委員監察委員你有沒有投票給他沒有那他可不可以代表你跟我"},{"start":6680.439,"end":6708.066,"text":"因為他是由我們選出來的總統所提名的他們是由113位立法委員所組成的我們選出來的立委所同意任命的所以考委、監委跟大法官雖然我們沒有投票給他但他都代表了你跟我對不對那他有沒有平等的對待你跟我你確定嗎?考委有沒有原住民?有嗎?監委有沒有原住民?有原住民有幾族?那監委有16族的原住民都有嗎?"},{"start":6712.939,"end":6734.577,"text":"大法官有沒有原住民?那如果沒有原住民身份的大法官,雖然經過總統提名,全國民意基礎的立法院同意通過,他可以代表公平的對待不同的族群嗎?可不可以?所以目前政務委員當中有沒有,大法官有沒有規定一定要有一個大法官是原住民?"},{"start":6736.24,"end":6745.664,"text":"沒有那如果沒有規定大法官要有一個原住民這樣有沒有有違我們平等對待各個平等族的這個憲法保障第一條原則原理有沒有沒有嘛為什麼"},{"start":6747.932,"end":6773.95,"text":"因為不管有沒有保障大法官是不是具有原住民身份大法官繼經全民選出來的總統提名繼經全民選出來的國會立法委員由你的一票和我的一票的委員來同意任命他就要根據憲法第7條公平的對待不分種族的每一個國民是不是這樣來我們來談政體這只是很清楚的一個憲法ABC我們來談一下環境保育與民生利用並行補償淨法並"},{"start":6777.014,"end":6806.198,"text":"鼓勵永續經營我們來看一下來目前我們全國的原保地有26萬6千公頃對不對對其中林業用地佔了6成6是不是是那目前只有林保地會被納入淨法區域可以領取淨法補償是不是這樣是這當中屏東縣是不是最多對屏東縣最多所以我要問那個定義題目好來我們往下看目前列為淨法區的有9種是不是有這些林業用地水保用地水質保護區國家公園性質一不一樣"},{"start":6807.585,"end":6807.785,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6832.625,"end":6852.685,"text":"如果說我保持原貌進法公告之後呢有兩種一種是我做照領或其他用途你們是不是根據判斷有沒有濫墾濫罰是有根據竹木的覆蓋率有七成以上就算是可以符合資格是不是這樣是只要符合補償要件就算是有做其他的使用符合規定也可以領取補償是不是這樣是"},{"start":6853.926,"end":6875.142,"text":"所以目前的應許進法補償不是叫你什麼都不能動只是要你合乎規定來使用是不是好我們現在看好目前的申請補償面具有沒有逐年增加有有從2.4萬公頃到去年到7.2萬公頃了到了2024年我們估計有7.7萬請問新核定補償的土地通常有沒有做使用有沒有做使用他只是進法而已他有沒有做其他的使用你們有沒有去考究"},{"start":6884.369,"end":6905.082,"text":"新核定的這些補償的原保地上的林業用地有沒有做使用?我所知道多數沒有做使用,它就是保持原狀,是不是這樣?所以你們目前所合法的禁法補助,絕大多數都是保持原狀,是不是?但是法律有沒有規定他們底下不可以使用?沒有嗎?"},{"start":6906.395,"end":6913.197,"text":"現在目前我們在屬於原保地的林地當中有AB兩種方案一種是農業部林保署的造林獎勵有沒有你們知道嗎他們的造林獎勵可不可以去補助可不可以去使用"},{"start":6936.561,"end":6937.741,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":6964.551,"end":6981.631,"text":"林保署的跟我們原民會的可以同時申請嗎?不可以A或B是互斥的那如果還有一個C的方案他符合我們進化補助覆蓋率7成的規定但是他做部分的使用可不可以同時來兼領如果有個C方案"},{"start":6983.223,"end":7011.63,"text":"如果在合法使用...合乎規定使用法案,你們是同意的,好。所以你來看,A方案的話呢,個人投入呢,要投入很多。他個人有一定的收益,環境的收益也不錯,環境就是維持他的狀況。我們的方案B就是進發補償,個人不用去投入任何的利用跟開發。但是呢,個人有一定的收益,環境也得到一些些的保障,是不是這樣?但是如果我們加一個C方案,我們比照他,他個人投入一些"},{"start":7013.371,"end":7037.092,"text":"開發運用,符合規定的開發運用,他個人可以得到收益,環境也得到很大的再利用,你覺得有沒有可能?這個利用叫什麼?我來給你看答案,這個利用叫零下經濟。其實零下經濟可以維持現在林地的一個現有狀況,可是在滿足覆蓋率7成的情況之下,它可以又包括零下做一些開發利用以利民生。目前有沒有例子?"},{"start":7038.477,"end":7056.454,"text":"委員會有沒有這樣的例子?有來告訴你有哪些以前我諮詢過下一頁一個叫做什麼就是蜜蜂蜂蜜對不對我們養蜜蜂蜂蜜有高山茶為什麼蜂蜜跟高山茶是互利的因為有的蜂蜜他會帶來授粉往下看一種叫做無遮蜂聽過無遮蜂嗎"},{"start":7058.362,"end":7084.648,"text":"有沒有聽過吳哲鋒?就是沒有尾針的刺的。吳哲鋒在我們原住民的文化當中非常重要。他有非常多的應用用途,包括他的黏著,包括他的防水,都跟我們打獵有關。副主委你有沒有下去打過獵?有沒有拉過弓?有拉過弓,沒有打過獵。沒有打過獵,我也跟你一樣啦,我們都通信中。所以呢,再往下一頁。所以呢,同樣的道理,我們鄒族也有這樣的一個屋簷下的蜂窩,來幫助他們家裡可以開墾的"},{"start":7087.133,"end":7114.262,"text":"委員蔡普受諷最後我的訴求來往上一跳來上一頁現在你們是不是有一個111年到114年的原住民族的組織方案有 有這個部分有沒有一個古道遺址之外還有生態跟環境調查的維護計畫 有有沒有可以培育我們的原住民同胞他可以在維護自然生態的環境之下同時做一些經濟的開發利用 有沒有 有在各鄉鎮大概有十位左右 那目前成效如何"},{"start":7115.805,"end":7142.834,"text":"目前自然保育是有一些對環境的改善對環境的改善所以我要一個結論這個結論就是這個主張請原民會會同行政院各其他主管機關譬如說像農業部提出一個中產層的社會發展計畫他的目的就是針對目前有領取禁法補償或是符合領取禁法補償的原保地上的林業用地我們鼓勵原住民朋友"},{"start":7143.354,"end":7154.434,"text":"投入做符合規定的開發運用,你同意嗎?好,我們努力來嚴寧有嗎?有在嚴寧了喔?那我們希望說回到上面那個圖,就那個ABC方案的圖"},{"start":7155.683,"end":7175.513,"text":"如果說你們可以研議出這樣的西方案我相信未來我們原住民的朋友有原保地的朋友他在既有的林業用地上不是單純的受到的金髮的限制完全不能夠去使用只能說就是領取政府有限的金髮補償我們希望你們也鼓勵他投入類似林下經濟當下"},{"start":7177.114,"end":7206.099,"text":"在合乎禁法補償的使用範圍內做必要的合理的經濟開發運用,你同意嗎?同意,因為主委前幾天也有提到這個部分的...你們已經開始著手了,已經在有計劃運量了就開始去做...在執行了,我希望未來在你們下年度的計劃當中看到你們有C方案的提出來幫助原來領用B方案的原住民朋友可以因為他們的投入,他們對生態的服務他們可以領得更多的獎勵跟補助,好不好?"},{"start":7206.459,"end":7210.902,"text":"主席,我們請原民會中副主委跟原市行政總署曾永芳專委"},{"start":7234.266,"end":7239.571,"text":"有副處長要找副處長嗎?麻煩滿副處長"},{"start":7252.89,"end":7274.215,"text":"副主委還有副處長我先請教一下副處長根據行政院組織法第五條第二項規定政務委員得兼任下設委員會之主任委員而第四條規定行政院設立的委員會有包含原住民委員會因此原住民委員會的主任委員應該是可以兼任行政院的政務委員"},{"start":7274.975,"end":7290.288,"text":"也沒有違反行政院組織法的規定那執政黨的原住民立委曾經主張原民會的業務橫跨的各部會應該讓主任委員兼任政務委員為何你們一直都沒有讓原民會的主委兼任政務委員"},{"start":7291.577,"end":7319.691,"text":"那跟委員報告因為依照中央行政機關組織基準法的第18條第三項有提到機關首長除了他法律有特別的規定之外原則上是用專任的方式來處理所以說我們原則上因為這個原民會的業務是橫跨了各部會但因為他本身就是委員會性質是負責整合協調各部會的業務所以我們還是維持讓他用委員會而且專任的方式"},{"start":7321.443,"end":7346.325,"text":"國發會跟國家科學及技術委員會的主委有沒有兼任政務委員當時的考量是因為國發會跟這個國科會他們本身在相關的國家的施政的計畫科研計畫的審議方面有比較多資源分配的權限所以當時是在國發會的組織法是在立法院審議的過程是由委員建議把它改為由政務委員來兼任的"},{"start":7346.533,"end":7357.758,"text":"那所以說只要有委員建議可以改為這個政務委員兼任也是可以了是這樣的意思嗎?我們是建議就是說因為他現行之下其實已經有相關跨部會協調的功能了"},{"start":7358.666,"end":7386.861,"text":"但是因為沒有事實上他沒有真正跨部會寫到的公文我為什麼會提到這個當然也是今天條文的部分要修正的部分主要是因為賴總統有他的主張是要證明平埔族這我想上次這個主委新任的主委也特別提到那因為平埔族的這個證明涉及的議題非常的龐大而且所需要的預算可能也會超過幾百億可能影響的族群也超過100萬人"},{"start":7388.542,"end":7414.158,"text":"那這樣子是不是也需要跨部會去整合包括說如果追溯到平埔族的這個血緣的話臺灣可能有600萬人是平埔族然後還有很多的土地要面臨重新管理那如果平埔族都比照原住民55歲退休勞保基金的缺口也會變大所以整個國土的規劃都要重來所以請問這樣子還算不算是這個跨部會而且需要涉及重大計畫的審查"},{"start":7415.821,"end":7437.902,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告齁因為事實上我們行政院已經有成立一個叫原住民族基本法的推動會是由行政院的院長來擔任召集人所以關於剛剛委員提到這個重大的議題事實上是可以提到這個委員會來做相關的一個討論跟審議我想這可能跟我們的原住民委員會的主任委員能不能兼任政務委員我覺得應該也沒有直接的關係啦"},{"start":7438.703,"end":7438.843,"text":"中副主委"},{"start":7454.241,"end":7474.358,"text":"原民會有一個標案是113年度補助原住民族長者裝置假牙業務的宣導文宣費預算的經費是199萬元那為什麼會有這個宣導品是因為112年度原住民的長者裝設假牙的補助總共1936案補助金額是3666"},{"start":7478.382,"end":7495.274,"text":"六十三萬元那原民會認為從數據上來看喔原住民長者申請的補助人數太少所以要做宣傳那請問一下副主委那個原住民長者的牙齒都不好嗎要不然為什麼認為這樣算是少而且是因為宣傳不夠"},{"start":7497.162,"end":7507.601,"text":"其實很多老人家的牙齒的確到一定的年齡大概都會鬆動而且吃食物進食會比較困難對 那是根據什麼樣子的理由你認為說這個是因為宣傳不夠呢"},{"start":7510.265,"end":7510.445,"text":"委員高金素梅"},{"start":7530.106,"end":7557.95,"text":"以貼紙的話可以張貼在66處的原住民族的家庭服務中心22縣市政府510處的文化健康站全國的村里長辦公室牙醫診所那會需要裝假牙的人會去找牙醫需要申請補助的會去找里長家人也會上網查資訊為什麼需要花199萬去製作USB風扇跟USB LED燈進行宣導呢?各位報告這個可能也是鼓勵"},{"start":7559.042,"end":7561.304,"text":"請問有幾個長者會用USB充電?"},{"start":7582.614,"end":7601.401,"text":"所以這樣子的一個宣導品我覺得根本就沒有好一大使用性是浪費公帑我在內政委員會的時候我也曾經質詢過前任的這個主委他花了145萬要去做他的個人的一個紀念冊我已經覺得是非常的浪費公帑浪費我們納稅人的錢"},{"start":7604.022,"end":7616.292,"text":"那我記得在這個行政院卓院長在院會也一直強調原民會的預算很吃緊但是以這個標案來說其實也是非常嚴重的在浪費人民這個納稅的錢副主委請您回答"},{"start":7622.2,"end":7650.793,"text":"委員這個部分我們再來瞭解看因為的確老人家是比較很少用USB啦都是年輕人比較多所以說你花了199萬元去做老人家根本不會用到的宣導品就是浪費公帑就是浪費納稅人義務的納稅錢可能也是給老人家或者是讓家裡能夠一起做這樣的一個宣導199萬元既然原民會的預算是很吃緊的我覺得每一分錢都該花在刀口上好嗎好也謝謝委員提醒謝謝"},{"start":7652.839,"end":7654.36,"text":"無中縣委員發言麻煩副主委"},{"start":7684.289,"end":7685.109,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":7704.454,"end":7728.086,"text":"他都是從事勞力密集的工作而且他的收入其實是偏低的每人每月平均薪資現在我們來看大概是34,244塊跟其他的國人相比他其實是少了9,037塊那其實未滿3萬元的比例還有高達三成多所以我們從這個數據上面來看我就覺得"},{"start":7730.247,"end":7731.148,"text":"委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":7747.332,"end":7747.672,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7769.264,"end":7789.499,"text":"一百一十二年這個數據比應該這麼說啦就是說失業率一年只少了零點二九就從一一跟一二這樣來比的話那一年只少零點二九這個進步的速度是不是不太好零點二九算是"},{"start":7791.297,"end":7820.137,"text":"跟委員說明因為失業率的下降呢其實從早期的98年呢8%左右已經有逐年下降那今年其實都維持到不到1%是有透過我們的強化促進原住民就業方案跟各部會的合作來去促進原住民的就業權益以上說明那你們有沒有去分析一下他們找不到工作的原因大概是哪些有些是生活圈沒有工作機會或是就業的資訊不夠掌握還有跟生活技能跟工作的技能有關係"},{"start":7822.032,"end":7842.868,"text":"我這邊有看了一份112年原住民就業狀況調查年度報告111年的勞動力參與率跟失業率是62.75跟3.82也就是說我們從這個資料上面來看有65.31的人他是在工作中沒有遇到工作機會"},{"start":7844.77,"end":7852.488,"text":"當然這裡面有很多種不同的細項的分別其中有30.42他是找不到他要做的職業類別"},{"start":7855.086,"end":7880.552,"text":"有沒有去稍微了解一下這個狀況是什麼?是不是專業度不夠或是什麼?有沒有了解?是,跟委員說明這除了就是有工作技能不足之外我們有透過職業訓練那當然也會有分原鄉跟都會那不同的地區確實有不同的工作機會那以原鄉而言來說本來產業發展就比較有限所以我們會有推動一些在地的觀光政策那這個部分也會加強推動"},{"start":7881.451,"end":7909.377,"text":"按照剛剛說的如果說有六成的這個失業者在找工作的過程中他完全沒有遇到這個可以或適合的工作機會那我想請教一下那這個是不是這樣主委這個部分就問主委主委請問一下這個會不會是代表有一些公司他會拒絕那個入取原住民甚至說連面試的機會也不給啊你們有沒有研究過我們這方面的原因"},{"start":7910.197,"end":7911.278,"text":"我們還是要去分析他們找不到工作的原因"},{"start":7938.496,"end":7956.729,"text":"當然說會不會有一些公司他本來就是對原住民有歧視而拒絕去面試他這也要麻煩你們了解一下那如果我們發現沒有工作的原因主要是因為技能或什麼不足的話我想這個國家就有辦法去介入介入一下就提供給他們一些"},{"start":7957.889,"end":7960.391,"text":"有關這個部分我們是不是也跟勞政單位去了解一下這個情況?"},{"start":7977.163,"end":7997.576,"text":"麻煩要知道問題才能夠解決問題這部分再麻煩你們另外我還想請當然我知道政府有做很多就像企業要標政府標案的時候他會要求企業要有一定的人住民比例如果沒有的話要繳納貸金這個政府都有在做也是薪資多年的一個制度我想請問一下企業繳納貸金現在狀況普不普遍繳納貸金"},{"start":8005.772,"end":8032.866,"text":"委員說明大概未足額的廠商大概平均每年有500到600家左右比例呢?比例這個部分的話因為我們大概平均每年大概有2萬多的那個標案這個部分但是其實那個原住民的廠商超額經用的人數也有比例的上升那目前的這個貸金的這個部分的話還是維持大概2億到3億左右沒有我是說這可能要看一下比例啦就到底有多少公司他們只是寧願繳貸金也不用"},{"start":8034.77,"end":8034.81,"text":"主席"},{"start":8052.107,"end":8070.678,"text":"四至七一九號的理由書有提到原住民的聘用是屬於國家保障原住民發展的一環,但能夠提供多屬於短期或不具技術性的工作,難以增進原住民長期穩定的工作機會和專業技能。"},{"start":8074.195,"end":8074.796,"text":"我們對人才的賠利也會加強這個部分"},{"start":8099.618,"end":8118.763,"text":"還有就是說我們的立法院的法治局有提到一個報告就是政府提供很多臨時工作雖然是可以解決原住民的生計藍莓之急但是這不是長久的那個方法嘛因為這個反而會隱蔽了原住民的失業率他沒有辦法真實的反映現在原住民面臨的問題這一塊也要麻煩你們"},{"start":8121.404,"end":8122.465,"text":"最後我想說提一下"},{"start":8139.596,"end":8156.731,"text":"因為原住民他們就業其實有一個特殊的狀況就是早進晚出他就業反而是很密集在15到24歲或55歲以上所以你們要去了解一下15到24歲他們在進行職涯規劃的時候他到底需要的是什麼"},{"start":8157.432,"end":8157.652,"text":"議員高金素梅"},{"start":8177.814,"end":8178.355,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8199.436,"end":8225.632,"text":"改善原住民就業狀況或提高競爭力的配套措施。我想說你們應該有這些配套措施嗎?可不可以就是說這個相關的規劃還有書面能夠兩個月內給我讓我拜讀一下,好不好?是,是,謝謝,兩個月的時間。可以嗎?可以,可以。兩個月內再麻煩你們給我。剛剛委員所講的包括15到24歲甚至55歲以上這樣的勞參率我們也會了解一下他的情況"},{"start":8226.853,"end":8227.113,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲委員接下來我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":8258.943,"end":8277.044,"text":"請原民會跟人事行政總署好 請副主委各位好想先請教副主委是你贊成這個原民會的主委兼任政委嗎"},{"start":8279.043,"end":8306.901,"text":"這個部分我們是不是還是因為這涉及到行政院人事任用法規的解釋跟適用我們很在尊重人事總署的看法我現在不是問法規我只問有沒有這個需要你作為一個圓明會的副主委所以你的意思是其實無所謂見不見無所謂當然目前我們在推動整個圓明會的事務我們也有透過"},{"start":8307.842,"end":8331.497,"text":"我直接問你啦 兼任政委對你們原住民委員會來說的話推動事務當中是不是會更有著力一點一點是 是嘛 所以作為原住民委員會的副主委這件事情我覺得就要你原住民委員會的態度那現在我想請教一下我們人事總處請問一下反對的原因是什麼"},{"start":8333.102,"end":8333.903,"text":"我看了一下你們說啦,你們大概說"},{"start":8348.271,"end":8376.55,"text":"依照中央行政機關組織基準法嘛 對不對規定機關首長除應性質特殊法規定有規定者外應為專任嘛那現行行政院組織法第四條第五條規定行政院有九個委員會的主委可以兼任政委那其中國發會跟國科會因為具有跨部會整合功能原民會性質比較單一所以你們認為沒有兼任政委的必要性嘛 對不對"},{"start":8378.823,"end":8397.007,"text":"國發會跟國科會主要是針對各機關的計畫要進行相關的審議跟資源分配。這個部分也是委員在修法的時候爭列的。我現在請教一下副主委,你認同人事行政總署這個見解嗎?從業務端來看,我不講法規端。"},{"start":8401.731,"end":8429.471,"text":"我這樣問好了齁請問按照原住民組織法原住民你管的這個相關的原住民工作包括哪些項目包括教育文化社會福利工程建設土地社會福利非常多包括政策規劃地方基礎建設大概算是包羅萬象的確啊教育文化經濟觀光產業土地海域"},{"start":8430.738,"end":8448.812,"text":"幾乎啊 我直接說啦 原住民委員會所管的事項吼 真的叫包山包海啦 對不對你大概除了兩岸國防外交 兩岸都未必了 兩岸都還有關係喔 我大概想連國外交都還有點關係喔"},{"start":8450.387,"end":8478.095,"text":"我大概說國防 欸 國防好像也有點關係喔我要跟你講說他跨部會需要的工作恐怕是各個部會裡面最高的吧 是不是目前我們 所以我們常常有一些跨部會的一些協商機制對啊 可是他們認為說你們的跨部會的需求不像國科會或者是國發會那麼高啊所以你們是非常專一的單位啊 你認同人事行政總統這個見解嗎"},{"start":8482.305,"end":8501.893,"text":"我們還是尊重人事總署的我是從業務端啦他們從法制端我沒有要為難他們啦業務端你認同嗎因為現在在整個機制上我們運作是都有透過這樣的一個方式包括跟教育部我跟副主委講你是原民會的副主委"},{"start":8502.95,"end":8514.66,"text":"你今天爲了爭取原住民我們今天很多的一些不管是法規建制的優化不管是福利預算的爭取你要從原住民"},{"start":8516.138,"end":8532.708,"text":"我們的朋友的角度來去看我只講一個最簡單的事情嘛我就認為人事行政總督這個論點不成立阿我比你還敢幫原住民講話阿你覺得成立嗎?跨部會我還真找不出比原住民委員會更跨部會的一個單位啦有嗎?幾乎所有東西教育涉及誰?"},{"start":8538.854,"end":8558.987,"text":"教育設計哪個部會?原住民的教育設計哪個部會?教育文化處對啊我說教育設計哪個部會啊?其他部會啊?教育部啊今天經濟事務設計哪個部會?環境事務設計哪個部會?海洋事務設計哪個部會?原住民委員會才真的是一個化部會需求最高的單位啦"},{"start":8560.24,"end":8574.899,"text":"這個我也是希望我們的人事總處這件事情能夠把它納入考慮不是你們講的所謂的他的單一性我覺得原住民委員會並不單一他跨部會需求非常高我再舉個例子"},{"start":8576.341,"end":8592.055,"text":"請問我們的副主委是原住民族基本法在民國94年立法之後相關執法目前進度如何相關執法大概已經完成85%以上現在只剩下5個法還沒有原住民自治法進度怎麼樣"},{"start":8593.792,"end":8607.371,"text":"司法目前朝著分流立法的方式,那目前大概針對幾個族群,像太魯閣族跟盧凱族,有就這個族群的部分希望能夠請他們就有關自治的議題,然後再"},{"start":8610.213,"end":8635.363,"text":"非常好!原住民土地及海域法進度如何?已經有一些法案上次有送到立法院針對我們那原住民族生物多樣性條例法案進展如何?這個生物多樣性因為問題還比較多還必須要去做更多的討論更多的跨部會討論啦是是是你知道我要問什麼了吧?理解這些法制修改需不需要跨部會討論?"},{"start":8639.195,"end":8659.946,"text":"所以為什麼今天在這邊我們立法委員會願意支持說今天讓原住民主委也可以兼任政委因為政委先天的功能我在政府單位工作過啊政委的功能其實主要就是以他政委員的身份來進行跨部會的很多的協調統合工作嘛 對不對"},{"start":8661.26,"end":8688.167,"text":"那今天如果說我們的原住民的主委他也同時兼任政委的話我剛剛講這麼多不管是說今天業務端法規端其實你就會知道基本上他就有更好的一個我們講說在政府單位的一個職務基礎來去為原住民朋友來去爭取更優化的法案的跨部會的協調工作副主委你認不認同"},{"start":8689.721,"end":8690.021,"text":"主席中副主委"},{"start":8721.546,"end":8736.941,"text":"副主委我想今天針對我們組織法第三條第四條的修正我想主要有關於我們政委員提出說我們商地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任首長之任命"},{"start":8739.533,"end":8748.583,"text":"主委由三地原住民及平地原住民輪流擔任,另外由行政院長提名也要經過原住民身份的議員、區長及鄉鎮市長的審查同意。"},{"start":8754.537,"end":8767.852,"text":"那我看你的這個剛才對我們所有的很多的委員你的答詢你就講說這個依照憲法56條這各部會的首長是由行政院長提名請總統任命所以你是不贊成"},{"start":8775.541,"end":8789.298,"text":"主委請教你,你認為族委是不是要跟我們原民的所有的這些族或者部落要熟悉,而且要溝通無礙,一定要嗎?"},{"start":8793.283,"end":8793.443,"text":"主委主席"},{"start":8812,"end":8825.582,"text":"所以在這種前提之下如果族委純粹是由行政院長來提名然後總統任命但是這個族委跟所有的族人不熟悉的話你認為他的政務會推行得很順暢嗎?"},{"start":8830.052,"end":8855.635,"text":"當然如果不熟悉會不順暢不過以我們這28年來的經驗所有的被任命的事才事任的首長大概都跟主委很熟悉那個副主委這是你的看法啦我想我過去也在內政委員會待過你這樣在當主委的時候我想我的選區新竹縣有兩個原鄉部落那你說這個主委真的跟他們那麼熟嗎 沒有"},{"start":8856.536,"end":8875.252,"text":"沒有齁 那不管是跟議員也好並沒有你講的什麼很熟悉啦所以其實我想這一次的修法主要針對這一次的修法所以要經過不管是由這個三立原住民平立原住民輪流擔任主委我想這一條這個很公平啊這個你贊同嗎這一條的修法"},{"start":8880.265,"end":8881.906,"text":"主委,主委由輪流來擔任你認為這樣的修法,你贊不贊成?"},{"start":8896.172,"end":8910.505,"text":"你回答很簡單回答,贊不贊成啊?因為今天有這個修法嘛,我看你的意見啊,聽一下你的意見因為這是提名跟任命權的問題,提名是不是三元平原那因為目前在憲法裡面提到三元平原大概只有立法委能選舉"},{"start":8911.486,"end":8938.392,"text":"副主委我想這個你本身你本身就是原民你可以站在原民的立場來講一下嘛就是說這樣子會不會比較對於不管是三民的照顧平地原住民的照顧可能會比較有均衡啦比較平衡啦不會每次都是平地原住民擔任或者是三地原住民擔任會讓所有的我們的族人啊你們的族人會感覺怎麼會這樣其他如果另外一個族永遠"},{"start":8939.532,"end":8964.511,"text":"都沒有機會去擔任主委嗎?所以用輪流可能會比較恰當會比較恰當另外就是說我想剛才我也聽莊瑞雄委員講說你們不贊成就是說由這個審查會來統一就是由我們的議員或者鄉鎮長區長來再做一次審查那實際上我想"},{"start":8966.193,"end":8984.731,"text":"當然從憲法的角度我們固然憲法是好像是有所限制但是我是希望說原民會跳脫一種思考邏輯原住民自治重不重要所以我剛剛也跟你講了說好多這個主委的一個如果他要去當主委他的一個要件"},{"start":8985.657,"end":9003.448,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條文修正"},{"start":9015.29,"end":9015.771,"text":"所以說你們可以跳脫這個這個思維啊是不是就是說是很有創意的一個設計啊"},{"start":9023.052,"end":9047.495,"text":"你們看如何來去讓這個條文不違憲的情況之下來以原住民的一個特殊性讓他能夠讓這個條文能夠實踐我覺得有他的必要所以我是建議說副主委你們似乎在未來在主條審查或者你們在提供意見的時候在行政院提供相關意見你們可以跳脫你們現在固有框架的思維"},{"start":9048.776,"end":9067.394,"text":"讓原民的發展能夠更好另外我想再請問你你去過西湖縣沒有?有去過西湖縣我剛才講的就是有五峰還有殲石這兩個原鄉最近五峰鄉的觀光特色景點你可以如列幾個給我聽聽看嗎?"},{"start":9069.741,"end":9095.356,"text":"五峰有溫泉張學良故居五峰的清泉你去過清泉嗎?有去過清泉張學良故居也去過兩次還有三毛的故居嗎?我看最近新北縣政府有向交通部公安局申請了一筆經費來補助整個我們這些觀光景點油氣設施的改善"},{"start":9097.129,"end":9097.469,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9116.264,"end":9116.785,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9134.401,"end":9148.852,"text":"有有有去過啦那當時在一將族委的時候去開幕剪裁嘛那最近我看他運作的也不錯是全台唯一你們原名的一個義文的一個中心就在我們竹東"},{"start":9149.713,"end":9149.753,"text":"主席"},{"start":9169.443,"end":9169.543,"text":"鄭天財委員"},{"start":9204.521,"end":9229.809,"text":"主席、各位委員,有請中副主委,還有人事行政總署。中華民國憲法徵修條文《國家因應民主意願保障原住民族之地位及政治參與》"},{"start":9231.943,"end":9254.638,"text":"本席所提的修法都是合憲你們提到的這個56條憲法56條我們沒有違反所以這個部分我們一個一個來講很重要的原住民族基本法依憲法徵修條文規定要原住民族自治"},{"start":9255.595,"end":9279.069,"text":"但是一直8年來都沒有提一將主委8年來都沒有提過去的主委過去的總統都有送這個原住民組織法到立法院唯獨這8年都沒有蘇貞昌院長說分流立法今天就是分流立法的開始所以我才會提出"},{"start":9280.517,"end":9303.252,"text":"這個相關的這些第二項增加第二項由行政院院長提名給我們原住民去行使同意簽我本來要設計送到立法院行使同意簽但是立法院原住民立委很少所以交給原住民的民意代表從7張以上的行使同意簽"},{"start":9304.704,"end":9328.677,"text":"跟公平會、NCC、中選會、送到立法院行使同意權,很多啊!大法官也是、考試委員也是、監察委員也是啊!對不對?這有什麼違反憲法?沒有違反憲法。好,我們一個一個來齁。你看,你說政務委員來監不行,過去的蒙藏委員會,就是由政務委員來監的。"},{"start":9331.274,"end":9356.568,"text":"一直到106年9月15日以前的盟戰委員會都是政務委員、委員間的那現在行政院組織法第四條這個各委員會這邊設了很多委員會第五條說行政院自政務委員7人至9人特任政務委員得兼任前條委員會之主任委員所以高金素梅提的"},{"start":9358.16,"end":9384.563,"text":"由政務委員來兼完全符合行政院組織法完全符合行政院組織法這個你說任期四年不要有任期和影響這個寫了很多理由那個理由都不是理由國家通信傳播委員會的主任委員就是四年啊中選會的也是四年啊公平教育委員會也是四年啊"},{"start":9385.919,"end":9410.988,"text":"所以寫的時候要謹慎一點包括人事行政總署要謹慎一點本席是老公務員也是寫法的過去很多的組織法尤其是延命會的組織法都是我在推動的好我們看為什麼要有三眼平眼過去從民國85年6月1號開始"},{"start":9413.983,"end":9436.764,"text":"嚴明會成立的主任委員從華家次‧尤哈尼‧伊斯卡卡夫特是三眼,任期都很短了。陳建聯主委是平眼,任期比較長一點。娃麗絲貝琳是三眼。接下來從第五個一將主委,她當了九年了。"},{"start":9438.177,"end":9458.375,"text":"一將主委當了9人是平衍張仁湘平衍孫大川平衍林江毅平衍對不對一將保洛斯平衍現在的曾志勇三衍三衍平衍真的不同啦很多的地方不一樣他們中副主委"},{"start":9460.54,"end":9481.632,"text":"你沒有像我以前當副局長當副主委的時候我跑遍全台灣了包括都會期了你就做不到現在的主任委員更做不到為什麼他們也很忙了常常要來立法院我也了解了所以主委是三員還是平員絕對有差別了"},{"start":9482.864,"end":9483.785,"text":"）立法院第11屆第12會議"},{"start":9503.909,"end":9531.766,"text":"滿一九十代一百零三年十二月十八號提出原住民族自治暫且條例行政院應設原住民族自治政府行政院設原住民族自治政府這是行政院會通過的他的主席由各族的委員來推及而這些委員也就是各族群來推這個是由下而上"},{"start":9532.932,"end":9560.441,"text":"由下而上自主席一人中旅自治七政務由委員推舉提請行政院院長聘任之人不是沒有過啊 院會通過啦因為人是行政總署你比較年輕啦過去沒有看到這個東西中副主委你應該有看過這個啊 對不對這個送到立法院喔 很可惜沒有三讀通過啊"},{"start":9562.608,"end":9590.138,"text":"所以這個部分沒有通過我理由就不講了我們後來有把它改成推動條例那這個這個族群委員啊你這邊寫的寫的那麼長理由都很好但是過去8年來都沒有這樣做了本席當了常務副主委當處長的時候都符合你寫的了但是過去8年來都沒有啊"},{"start":9591.738,"end":9618.746,"text":"原住民族自治,族群委員有沒有跟族委說一定要提,為什麼班也沒有提。土海法,他們要代表各族群啊。所以土海法要送啊。從原民會連送都沒有送到行政院啊。這是唯一的。所以不得不修啊。所以這個部分是這樣,因為你根本就沒有善用族群委員啊。"},{"start":9620.41,"end":9631.195,"text":"我也去了解過你們族群委員參加這個委員會議或是相關的這些法案沒有了每天在鄉下"},{"start":9632.383,"end":9658.111,"text":"每天在鄉下,因為你可能不知道啦,這部罪你不知道。各位報告,其實我們那個族群委員都有分別就各處事的一些工作,在地方做一些考察會刊,或是參與各種會議。我都知道,我常常碰到他們吶,他們都代表主任委員參加婚喪喜慶的。都代表主任委員參加婚喪喜慶。"},{"start":9659.266,"end":9664.45,"text":"時間的關係,這個後面還有很多的委員要提,這個我要特別講的是說,有一個案子比較急迫"},{"start":9677.295,"end":9677.795,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9703.983,"end":9704.563,"text":"副主委"},{"start":9726.367,"end":9745.977,"text":"副主委我要繼續追蹤上次那個兩會基金會員工的這個宿舍的這個問題後來我們好不容易在6月25號收到你們來的這個合約住宅規劃建議案的評估那我前面我實在是我是很不高興平良心講因為你這份報告裡面你花了大部分的篇幅去講說這個沒辦法做這個事"},{"start":9748.854,"end":9762.842,"text":"那我在質詢的時候好幾次的質詢我是沒有講我們要提這個概念的用意是要解決兩會期因為你搬家所以要解決這員工的通勤問題所以我有沒有講說一定要合一住宅不可有嗎"},{"start":9763.804,"end":9767.11,"text":"因為他們裡面董事會有一個董事一直往這邊去建議他們基金會是不是朝合一住宅去處理"},{"start":9779.288,"end":9806.206,"text":"那是他的建議案你跟他溝通沒有問題但是我的質詢是要求你解決住宿跟通勤的問題降低因為搬家造成的離職問題嘛那你要針對我的問題來處理啊那可能在業務單位在處理這個部分有一些誤解又有誤解了搞這麼久的時間還這麼多誤解那不是很奇怪嗎因為當時通知我們說針對合宇住宅這個部分是不是可以做一個說明然後你就只針對這個說明那我前面三次質詢都白講了就對了"},{"start":9807.512,"end":9809.719,"text":"沒有那個部也都還在進行中那請問現在有其他案子嗎?"},{"start":9813.664,"end":9842.391,"text":"並沒有那什麼叫做還在進行中就是還在討論因為目前那個原務會的基金會跟工會之間很多東西都必須要有一些共識第一個問題你在那邊花很多這個篇幅去講合一住宅不可行尤其是你去講取得土地很困難對不對但是我要問你啊取得土地真的有這麼困難嗎除了移轉或者是架構之外難道沒有別的方法嗎"},{"start":9843.43,"end":9844.291,"text":"為什麼你都沒有寫在報告裡面呢?"},{"start":9861.121,"end":9875.957,"text":"是所以可能一直對於合一住宅這個部分來做一個論述你如果可以成就這件事你多花一點時間論述我也很高興啊你寫了一大堆然後結論是不能啊這也不能那個也不能那不是推責任是什麼"},{"start":9877.435,"end":9902.881,"text":"我這樣跟你講嘛你現在要處理土地你講說原民會因為這個是兩個基金會處理的所以原民會沒有辦法協助用地取得我今天就出示一份公文啊國有非公用不動產提供有必要審查意見表你的主管機關只要續名理由不就處理完了嗎該出用或該取得不就有空間了嗎怎麼可能我們國家的法律會去限制你去做這個事情呢那你們有往這個方向想過嗎"},{"start":9908.08,"end":9924.049,"text":"應該沒有那怎麼辦呢我更生氣的是我看到你資料裡面寫什麼最後你要處理這些解決這些員工的問題你總共的經費唸給你聽啦這是你的報告經原文會與工會研議結果交通補助712萬8千搬遷補助389萬4千托育補助90萬非自願離職988萬8千這些數字加起來大概就2千萬我請問你搬遷的時候多少員工受到影響"},{"start":9941.108,"end":9953.543,"text":"三百多位員工?要因為很多人離職對不對?然後你就編這兩千多萬打發這群人了是嗎?你就是這樣寫的啊?你就寫說我就是這兩千多萬要處理這些事情了?"},{"start":9958.467,"end":9986.653,"text":"他都是原住民的弟兄捏而且是在你這個難得有一個很好的工作機會在你裡面可以推動原住民的文化推動原住民的隱世相關的這些工作你不用善待這些人才嗎?你們作為主管機關不用善待這群人才嗎?這個一定要善待他們因為不容易培養到這樣的一個程度是嗎?那萬一他們都離職了你就把900多萬離職資遣費發出去這件事情就算了是不是?那個是最下下策了那就對了嘛為什麼只有2000多萬呢?"},{"start":9988.359,"end":10010.439,"text":"您說沒有誠意是什麼呢?影響這麼多幾百個人欸不是說今天20個人10個人大家個別協商就可以處理了300多個人那很重要的勞動問題欸沒錯沒錯我們政府難道能夠打壓基層勞工嗎?尤其是原住民弟兄很奇怪吧那還有沒有別的方法我想跟委員報告因為上次可能在整個我們是有些誤解的部分"},{"start":10011.397,"end":10026.163,"text":"有關在整個搬遷的事以後我會很快的時間也會找兩個基金會在一起來討論因為他目前一直陸續的還在工會跟基金會之間有一些討論那一直還都沒有一些共識的部分我們會協助他們"},{"start":10027.003,"end":10048.713,"text":"海基會辦公室也是租的國防部國家安全研究院辦公室也是租的你那個地方我們曾經盤點過桃園的土地之所以好用就是因為那邊未來航空城開發計畫怎麼樣我也會有一些國有或者是室友的土地你沒有辦法架構我理解原民會要編預算很困難但你可以租賃你可以償租你可以交換很多方式可以處理嘛"},{"start":10050.117,"end":10069.296,"text":"我會講你講合一住宅他可能不是那麼合不是那麼適合現在政策的這個政策方案我也可以理解啊是但我的目標怎麼就給他一個漂亮亮亮而且距離很近的員工宿舍這有困難嗎難道不應該努力一下嗎有必要有必要對對對好那你什麼時候可以提出新的報告這份我們就作廢了丟垃圾桶可以嗎"},{"start":10070.697,"end":10070.717,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":10100.657,"end":10100.691,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具 «原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案》案。）"},{"start":10405.606,"end":10412.589,"text":"好謝謝那我們現在開始開會好那我們接下來請吳思瑤委員進行詢問麻煩副主委委員好"},{"start":10429.591,"end":10443.651,"text":"謝謝今天來看我們今天的幾個修法的提案那我謝謝鄭天財委員剛剛我們在會議期間在台下有多了一些討論我覺得多討論有利於我們更了解原民的想法"},{"start":10444.291,"end":10468.632,"text":"也更了解提案委員的很多初衷我謝謝鄭天財委員給我很多的指導但當我看到不管是鄭天財委員的提案或是高金素梅委員的提案針對原住民族委員會組織法的一些任用的方式那我個人粗淺的判斷我還是認為它涉及有侵害了憲法的人事任命權也就是立法侵害行政權的疑慮"},{"start":10469.793,"end":10496.205,"text":"所以我們都支持原民政策我們支持讓原民的各項照顧的福利措施更好但是會不會因此又開創了一個違憲的惡例呢我們應當要深思下一頁所以針對今天的修法提案如果說依委員的提案未來強制要求原住民族委員會的主委要兼任政務委員的話那恐怕涉及了影響行政權的人事任命權"},{"start":10497.628,"end":10500.885,"text":"我認為在憲法的分際上是值得商榷的。"},{"start":10503.479,"end":10527.117,"text":"那要讓主委是由山地原住民平地原住民來輪流擔任那我個人也會粗淺的認為就會不會又落入了一個過去傳統的一個統治框架的迷思會不會是走回頭路那也可能去強害了現在原住民族16族的主體性這是我的質疑好下一頁"},{"start":10529.034,"end":10548.843,"text":"主委由審查會來行使同意甚至創設了一個從來沒有見過的主委任命的審查會是由地方議會的議員以及鄉鎮市長來審查這對於中央地方權責的混淆因為它史上未見所以基於這三點理由就交於副主委我的這些分析你們會裡的立場是什麼"},{"start":10551.894,"end":10566.56,"text":"其實就剛剛委員的分析我們是非常的認同因為就我們所寫的報告一樣這個也涉及到憲法56條新政院長提名總統任命相關部會的首長那因為三元平原白你有按麥克風嗎"},{"start":10567.8,"end":10589.73,"text":"有嗎?有有。而且三元平原這個問題本來就是以前統治者為了管理方便所做的一個分析。不要再落入過去的框架。而且也都有種聲音就是希望把三元平原因為回到民族的主體性去各組來去看各民族的相關事務。那特別提到那個委員的部分吳啟子這個部分但我們也是認為"},{"start":10590.936,"end":10592.138,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":10606.036,"end":10611.12,"text":"主委的任命都是中央院長的權責這非常的清楚而目前有兼任政委的是國發會跟國科會但這兩個由政委來兼任主要是因為國發會處理了很多預算公建預算他要分配到各個部會"},{"start":10634.78,"end":10660.931,"text":"國科會也基於他的科學政策的導入他過去從科技部再回到國科會的這個組織的調整這都經過非常縝密的討論也就是國發會跟國科會基於他的特殊屬性由政委來兼任來能夠協力各個部會都進行國家發展以及科技發展的重要政策所以他有必要其他的委員長"},{"start":10662.271,"end":10670.96,"text":"錄委會、金管會、海洋委員會、僑委會、退府會、還有原民會、客委會都沒有用政委來兼任的。"},{"start":10672.056,"end":10673.297,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":10702.276,"end":10723.828,"text":"不需要這樣為分而分這是我個人的看法而且是基於現在的任命的一致性跟需要性所以我對於這幾個委員的提案我表示尊重但我認為值得大大的商榷那剛剛講到還有另外一個提案也就是提到要把行政院的原民會這屬於行政院二級機關的委員從有幾職來改為無幾職"},{"start":10728.741,"end":10742.646,"text":"這些委員就我所知道他們當然跟總統府的原轉會是任務編組這個屬性本質完全不同那這些擔任我們的原民會的委員們平常是不是事務很多"},{"start":10744.467,"end":10765.263,"text":"對,失誤很多除了參加會議還有包括會刊、審查甚至參與部落的一些活動所以他不是只有諮詢的那一類的委員嗎?他實質上是有政務推展跟去執行的必要所以我認為應當維持他的有給值否則我看以後不會有人來做這個工作吧?"},{"start":10765.543,"end":10765.623,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":10785.405,"end":10810.692,"text":"那因為我看到高金素梅委員在他的提案裡頭有提到說為什麼要讓他主張讓原民會的主委是由政委來兼任是因為現在族群歧視很嚴重他認為讓政委來兼任原民會的主委可以有利的來反族群歧視這是高金素梅委員在他的提案說明裡頭很重要的一個重點"},{"start":10813.293,"end":10828.545,"text":"這剛好跟我長期在推動的我認為反族群歧視我們需要一個專法而不是讓原民會的主委由政委來兼任就可以去改變我們要去扭轉的這個族群間的平等好下一頁"},{"start":10829.666,"end":10849.466,"text":"現在的反歧視法在7個法律裏面都散裂欠缺法的一致性所以我多次在這裏都提出以下的這些說法今天是就教於原民會我們好幾個委員林德福委員、鄭天財委員、伍麗華委員、陳寅委員都針對反族群歧視有提過法案"},{"start":10851.408,"end":10880.669,"text":"但是在陳建元院長的指示曾經一度說那由內政部來主責以反族群歧視平等來立法下頁但是經過行政院的審視也包括本席一直在司法法制委員會的倡議我們認為台灣如果要有一部反歧視法或是平等法都應當是方方面面統一規範所有的反歧視的行為不只是族群的它包括性別的工作的包括不同的同志的"},{"start":10883.392,"end":10890.66,"text":"因當擴大反歧視的面向來做一個專法的立法以利於從法律面組織面跟制度面來擺"},{"start":10892.332,"end":10898.957,"text":"因此行政院已經從原本請內政部來做反歧視法現在已經提升到行政院的人權及轉型正義處辦理了三場公聽會提出了行政院版的反歧視法的草案已經公告了"},{"start":10917.532,"end":10939.942,"text":"已經公告了對於受保護的特徵行為領域除外條款政府的義務乃至於受歧視者的賠償及救濟有一個專法的版本五月也就是我們看到然後未來期待會送到立法院來審議我想請問在這一個法的討論裡頭原民會應該扮演了非常重要的角色吧所以那如果有這樣一個專法"},{"start":10941.909,"end":10969.586,"text":"那搭配剛剛高金素梅委員所提的一定要由政務委員來兼任原民會的主委才能夠做到反歧視的作為那你覺得法比較有效還是這個人事任命比較有效當然制度法規很重要是所以我希望從這個面向也能夠說服我們高金委員的提案真的要做到反族群歧視我們需要一個專法法律來支持在各項的作為而不是只讀"},{"start":10971.027,"end":10971.047,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":11001.767,"end":11006.849,"text":"蘇清泉委員鄭振前委員楊瓊英委員陳冠廷委員林倩琦委員"},{"start":11037.357,"end":11058.316,"text":"主委,請問一下主委今天為什麼沒有來?主委,他有其他的會議有行程嘛,對吧?剛才應該也有委員問過啦。剛才休息的時間你們沒有跟他講一下有委員在關心嗎?有沒有?"},{"start":11060.177,"end":11087.515,"text":"行政作為要加油你要加強好嗎要不然常常讓主委在很辛苦的一個狀態下今天本席這邊的一個討論跟建議針對這個條文那很多東西也請你一定要帶回去我想知道主委的一個想法跟意向既然今天是副主委您來一些相關的概念我想跟你做一個討論第一個你希望原住民族自治嗎"},{"start":11088.858,"end":11111.172,"text":"這是長期的目標一直希望20年前大概都開始在推大家都希望嘛所以這是我們這個原住民很期待跟希望而且希望能夠真正落實的一個目標那我們都有這樣一個共同的一個方向要走所以那你同意現在原住民族自治的暫行條例嗎"},{"start":11113.442,"end":11134.544,"text":"草案因為目前的草案是因為前面的歷史過往是五進五出所以現在都還在討論中那所以你們有什麼樣子的看法現在是朝分流立法的方式那目前也對比較可以成為民族自治的族群像包括盧凱族還有太魯閣族"},{"start":11136.158,"end":11164.126,"text":"我們在兩年前就跟他們有一些合作然後請他們就內部民族去做一個討論然後什麼是自治要如何自治等相關的議題那很快大概這兩個民族的一些意見都會提供給我們好 你們排灣族你自己有沒有在參與排灣族的部分在三年前也成立了民族議會他們也正在思考研擬這個方向那因為排灣族的部分分布在台東跟屏東兩個區域"},{"start":11165.476,"end":11194.053,"text":"平東大概四分之三的人口,臺東有四分之一的人口。好,那繼續加油齁你們。我們每一個族群都要好好加油。那所以呢,如果你同意跟我們都希望原住民族有機會自治的話,那為什麼可以請你針對政委員這邊所提出來的,你們認為與憲法有抵觸的部分,可以告訴本席為什麼原住民不能以自身的想法跟理念朝向自治邁進呢?"},{"start":11195.714,"end":11210.408,"text":"因為以目前原民會成立28年來他整個組織法的運作在不同的政黨之下執行的還算順暢那政委員提案這個部分提的不管是任命的部分或者是"},{"start":11211.128,"end":11226.829,"text":"審查同意的部分甚至時間保障的部分因為這個跟憲法有一些明文的規定是有相抵觸的部分所以我們就這個部分其實還有很多必須要突破的那當然56條就明定部會首長必須是院長提請總統任命"},{"start":11228.475,"end":11249.974,"text":"中副我們是原住民國家這個概念應該在我們存在之後才有的所以如果憲法給予我們寬廣的空間那針對第10條第12項你有沒有可能在這樣一個思維下不要自己受限在現有的條文之內自我矮化跟自己設限"},{"start":11251.175,"end":11275.778,"text":"那這樣才會是我們原住民在朝向我們期待的方向才有可能的一個可能性跟思維,你不覺得嗎?你可以懂我講這句話嗎?理解,那因為憲法有按照目前所謂的政黨政治跟行政議題我想現在連釋憲的部分都有特別提到這樣的一個任命都有相關的原則跟規定"},{"start":11276.479,"end":11293.62,"text":"我一直跟您強調第10條的這個部分你們應該跳脫現在已經被殖民跟被框架的思維跳出來到憲法層次來思考原住民的特殊性跟未來"},{"start":11295.709,"end":11322.228,"text":"這是我給你一個建議那好好地想一想先把它想通想懂然後再試著看看不要自己先跳到已經被殖民被框架的條文之內去思考那這樣我們可能會離我們共同的目標還有一段很長的距離好那另外一個是剛才我們七十將高金委員的這個政委來兼"},{"start":11323.789,"end":11349.516,"text":"主委的這樣一個概念我覺得挺好的那我來問一個問題本席有碰到啦不曉得你們覺得是怎樣我覺得所有的原住民的立法委員都很認真的幫你們在推動行政事務那你知道為什麼嗎我們在行政單位都待過你覺得原住民的事務有一個共同的困境是什麼比較複雜多元"},{"start":11351.742,"end":11373.559,"text":"因為複雜多元,所以是一個原民會就可以做的嗎?當然原民會要整理整個原住民的相關政務跟法規所以你覺得你目前的行政能耐能夠去統合各部會嗎?目前我們在各部會之間都有相關的平台在推動相關的跨部會的合作的工作"},{"start":11375.322,"end":11393.493,"text":"在本席私下跟你們同仁在討論一些原住民族的業務的時候你們甚至有人還不太清楚其他部會是怎麼的推動的有些平台你們可能還不太清楚在討論些什麼然後都要本席幫你們在其他的事務上跟委員會來做爭取跟推動"},{"start":11394.734,"end":11420.51,"text":"所以我要講的是那如果政務委員有機會來擔任這樣一個位置主委能兼任主委的話他有沒有可能在一個比較高的高度上來解決你們行政上的困難你覺得有沒有可能同樣的喔同樣的喔不要在自我、行政、殖民、受限跳脫出來一個原住民主體的思考"},{"start":11422.366,"end":11444.091,"text":"這是我給你們的建議所以今天你們既然談到憲法的層次請你以憲法的最高層次來為族群、原住民族爭取最大的利益最重要的是自己的主體性不要在國家概念上的思維被自我矮化謝謝我們共同來努力"},{"start":11447.516,"end":11448.218,"text":"徐新穎委員"},{"start":11465.793,"end":11468.617,"text":"副主委您認為今天審議的法案是不是典型的原住民自治議題?"},{"start":11478.405,"end":11503.9,"text":"是或不是就好了這是組織法是原民會的組織法規那它算不算一種原住民自治的議題嗎當然如果說在整個行政運作上原民自主自行這樣子還有獨立的預算對對對我就問是或不是那剛剛我也聽到林委員質詢的時候您支持原住民自治嗎"},{"start":11505.221,"end":11521.664,"text":"您要表達支持嗎?支持那如果不討論人事、法規、行政院組織等等您贊不贊成提案主委山原平原輪座的主張?您贊不贊成?我先了解山原平原輪座的主張"},{"start":11534.775,"end":11563.986,"text":"因為這樣的輪流主張,它也涉及到未來提名的任命的權利的部分。對,那您贊不贊成嗎?不要浪費我時間,您贊不贊成?贊成或不贊成?以目前來講,目前委員會推動還算順利啦,因為從剛剛委員提出的幾個...好,所以您贊成嘛,贊成嘛。好,那這個目前提案的這種自治應該還算是蠻低度的自治吧?"},{"start":11570.163,"end":11590.442,"text":"所以目前的提案都算比較低度的吧那我現在提比較強度更高的就是由原住民自己選主委或是原住民的領袖主委你的看法支不支持呢所以你不敢講支不支持嗎"},{"start":11591.918,"end":11614.709,"text":"以目前來講我們算在所謂的國家政府組織推行政務要直接對人民負責這樣一個憲政體制底下對嘛所以你那你認不認同原住民自己選出主委或是原住民的領袖原住民領袖都有現在都各族群都有那你指的是什麼"},{"start":11615.734,"end":11618.096,"text":"原住民自治應該不是只有說選出最高領袖還有最高議會"},{"start":11644.356,"end":11658.769,"text":"應該有更多原住民自治的事項的問題,譬如教育、經濟、文化、語言等等。在您的看法,這個給你多一點,給你30秒,你講一下你的概念跟想法好不好。"},{"start":11660.27,"end":11681.007,"text":"這個也是謝謝委員我們應該是看法是相同的因為就原住民的語言的部分必須要自治所以現在108年通過了原住民族語言法讓原住民族的語言成為國家的語言我指的是更多原住民自治事項語言只是其中一項包括您教育的部分因為有原住民族教育法對對對那您有沒有"},{"start":11683.23,"end":11690.179,"text":"這個對於我們推動原住民自治這些比較具體實體事項的推動程序的規劃"},{"start":11692.096,"end":11715.072,"text":"你怎麼來推動?整體推動還是你們是採用分流立法?現在採用分流立法的方式因為以目前推動的相關工作包括所謂的鄉鎮市區長大概像以三地原住民鄉鎮所有的鄉鎮市區長是一定要具有原住民身份所以他就鄉來講他算是一個鄉自治的一個機制"},{"start":11718.102,"end":11734.564,"text":"所以您現在所講的很多分流的推動,很多都是周邊的事務,那一些比較自治的核心事項,您有沒有想過?有,根本沒有辦法,因為自治上次提到過,因為它五金的存在...那最核心的是什麼?"},{"start":11734.904,"end":11757.035,"text":"五進五出在立法院因為它涉及到整個行政區的劃分這個也會面臨衝擊比如說花蓮、台東這兩個縣因為都是原住民鄉鎮為什麼會五進五出啊?草案從89年就開始提出草案是因為沒有共識還是怎麼樣?還是不完備?它裡面的爭議的議題很多比如說我舉一個例子"},{"start":11757.97,"end":11769.804,"text":"在民族自治以後全面衝擊行政區域,對於一個行政區域來講,它的影響,比如說花蓮台東兩個縣可能就會不存在了。所以會影響到我們一般非原住民的意思,所以這個需要比較久時間,大家要有共識。"},{"start":11779.334,"end":11795.363,"text":"我們在新竹就有兩個鄉他要脫離新竹縣變成這樣子而且民族跟民族之間有一些重疊的地方所以怎麼樣具體推動而且可以落實這個才是你們的挑戰好不好接著時間不多了"},{"start":11796.383,"end":11815.407,"text":"接下來本席要就原民就業自治條例的部分來就教於您。行政院5月3號函告臺北新北,對不對?您應該很清楚。有關原住民就業自治條例部分條文無效。那雙北市政府分別在5月30、6月3號提起訴願。"},{"start":11818.648,"end":11828.031,"text":"行政院原民會也回應了地方政府提出訴願將循程序進行。副主委,請問無效的理由是什麼?"},{"start":11838.103,"end":11850.149,"text":"各位委員報告因為這個雙北的那個自治條例因為目前我們有原住民族工作權保障法主要有第四條第五條還有政府採購法的相關規定已經有規範了所以抵觸的是這兩部法律"},{"start":11853.915,"end":11869.369,"text":"是抵觸了原住民族工作權保障法以及政府採購法的相關規定那這樣本席就教您一下原住民工作對工作權保障法第24條也有規定說得標廠商要因一定"},{"start":11869.989,"end":11895.494,"text":"一律依差額人數乘以每個月基本工資來計算繳納代金經過司法院第810號解釋是違憲而且特別提到說要致辭這最慢於本解釋公佈之日是110年10月8日起兩年內要依據"},{"start":11896.814,"end":11917.804,"text":"這一個司法院的解釋違憲的意旨要修正之他兩年內要修正我們現在已經超過兩年又八個月了為什麼沒有修正是 各位說明目前這部法律已經送進立法院了兩年多了還所謂送進立法院那為什麼沒有審"},{"start":11919.793,"end":11947.888,"text":"什麼時候送進立法院的?今年2月的時候,今年2月也已經超過這個兩年,兩年內你今年2月已經超過兩年四個月才送進立法院所以過去這兩年四個月在做什麼?去年在9月的時候已經送過,然後今年又再送第二次所以9月的時候沒有審完是不是?完全沒審那你們有沒有去拜託召委排案啊?執政黨每一個委員會都也有召委"},{"start":11949.722,"end":11977.08,"text":"所以我們最想知道那你們的立場跟態度是什麼?究竟打算怎麼做?就是因為你說你們都回復說已經送立法院了這個答案我知道啊但是就這句話然後繼續躺在那繼續躺然後都一直過期那你到底有沒有真的想要做維護原住民族的這個工作權保障?"},{"start":11979.867,"end":11980.788,"text":"主席副主委你要加把勁吧"},{"start":12004.329,"end":12005.75,"text":"接下來我們請張志倫委員張志倫委員張志倫委員張志倫委員沒有來那所有發言"},{"start":12032.674,"end":12059.506,"text":"登記發言委員都已經發言完畢好訊答結束那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關謹速送交個別委員及本聯席會委員黃建斌、高金素梅、傅坤祺、翁曉琳、王美惠、胡齊明、楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆"},{"start":12063.308,"end":12071.9,"text":"本次會議進行到此結束議員討論事項未及處理部分令定期繼續審查現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16044","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d53741711f1205b9590a0be61fea14818627684c85f64cd7b2124656389e1f48c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-27T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T12:02:15+08:00","duration":12705,"影片長度":"03:31:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 - 12:02:15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1962.3572187500001,"end":1965.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1968.0778437500003,"end":1972.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1973.6634687500002,"end":1979.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1979.6878437500002,"end":1984.9022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1985.1722187500002,"end":1987.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1987.9903437500002,"end":1989.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1989.5428437500002,"end":1994.5040937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1994.82471875,"end":1996.7147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1997.0015937500002,"end":1999.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1999.3978437500002,"end":2001.0515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2001.3215937500001,"end":2002.7559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2003.0090937500001,"end":2003.6503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2004.1397187500002,"end":2010.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2010.6703437500003,"end":2015.4122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2015.49659375,"end":2019.4959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2020.00221875,"end":2025.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2026.2459687500002,"end":2037.9065937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2038.3959687500003,"end":2044.5890937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2045.0615937500002,"end":2046.8165937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2047.1203437500003,"end":2054.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2055.45659375,"end":2057.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2057.85284375,"end":2062.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2063.47221875,"end":2066.5772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2066.6784687500003,"end":2068.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2069.1084687500006,"end":2081.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2081.96721875,"end":2083.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2083.7897187500002,"end":2087.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2088.8015937500004,"end":2094.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2094.7078437500004,"end":2096.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2097.1884687500005,"end":2099.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2099.63534375,"end":2099.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2099.68596875,"end":2102.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2102.20034375,"end":2103.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2109.5409687500005,"end":2109.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2109.57471875,"end":2124.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2130.6347187500005,"end":2139.1397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2141.0634687500005,"end":2146.0584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2147.29034375,"end":2148.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2150.8678437500002,"end":2158.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2160.41909375,"end":2163.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2166.1903437500005,"end":2169.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2170.91534375,"end":2173.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2175.01596875,"end":2177.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2179.1334687500002,"end":2182.4747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2183.5378437500003,"end":2186.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2187.68909375,"end":2191.6209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2193.17346875,"end":2196.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2198.1178437500002,"end":2200.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2202.92721875,"end":2205.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2207.2809687500003,"end":2209.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2210.82471875,"end":2212.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2214.25034375,"end":2216.5115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2217.8278437500003,"end":2220.8653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2222.08034375,"end":2226.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2227.4128437500003,"end":2231.2772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2232.7959687500006,"end":2235.3272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2237.1834687500004,"end":2240.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2241.7059687500005,"end":2245.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2247.9665937500004,"end":2250.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2250.9872187500005,"end":2253.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2253.2822187500005,"end":2254.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2259.82971875,"end":2274.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2284.11284375,"end":2287.3359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2288.02784375,"end":2298.6084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2298.99659375,"end":2305.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2306.35409375,"end":2319.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2320.02284375,"end":2321.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2321.9803437500004,"end":2325.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2325.69284375,"end":2329.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2329.91159375,"end":2335.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2335.32846875,"end":2345.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2346.46596875,"end":2351.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2351.37659375,"end":2353.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2354.43096875,"end":2361.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2362.1259687500005,"end":2367.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2368.3359687500006,"end":2372.9597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2373.53346875,"end":2375.9128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2376.4697187500005,"end":2379.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2379.67596875,"end":2385.8690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2386.37534375,"end":2393.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2393.7497187500003,"end":2398.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2399.21721875,"end":2399.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2400.0947187500005,"end":2400.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2401.1747187500005,"end":2402.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2403.06471875,"end":2403.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2403.80721875,"end":2405.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2405.78159375,"end":2411.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2412.4978437500004,"end":2413.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2413.6959687500002,"end":2415.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2415.83909375,"end":2417.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2417.66159375,"end":2418.4209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2418.97784375,"end":2419.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2420.7665937500005,"end":2421.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2422.11659375,"end":2424.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2424.4959687500004,"end":2426.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2426.5378437500003,"end":2428.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2429.2715937500006,"end":2434.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2435.1103437500005,"end":2436.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2436.7809687500003,"end":2437.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2437.77659375,"end":2438.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2438.68784375,"end":2439.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2440.0547187500006,"end":2441.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2441.80971875,"end":2444.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2445.08346875,"end":2448.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2448.6103437500005,"end":2449.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2449.6228437500004,"end":2454.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2454.46596875,"end":2460.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2460.9122187500006,"end":2469.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2469.6872187500003,"end":2470.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2471.0878437500005,"end":2471.8809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2472.18471875,"end":2473.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2474.05784375,"end":2485.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2485.95471875,"end":2489.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2489.80221875,"end":2490.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2491.47284375,"end":2492.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2492.94096875,"end":2499.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2500.46721875,"end":2500.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2501.3278437500003,"end":2503.7578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2504.51721875,"end":2505.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2506.5928437500006,"end":2509.1240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2509.32659375,"end":2510.9297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2511.38534375,"end":2513.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2513.42721875,"end":2526.1678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2526.5390937500006,"end":2538.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2539.11096875,"end":2557.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2557.3190937500003,"end":2561.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2562.2128437500005,"end":2562.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2563.27596875,"end":2568.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2568.69284375,"end":2576.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2576.5059687500006,"end":2586.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2586.71534375,"end":2591.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2591.99721875,"end":2593.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2597.12721875,"end":2617.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2624.54909375,"end":2626.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2626.6415937500005,"end":2627.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2636.37846875,"end":2718.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2637.1884687500005,"end":2637.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2720.02784375,"end":2751.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2752.3603437500005,"end":2775.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2775.4959687500004,"end":2781.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2775.71534375,"end":2776.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2779.09034375,"end":2779.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2781.7734687500006,"end":2787.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2786.32971875,"end":2786.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2787.6122187500005,"end":2804.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2805.2128437500005,"end":2805.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2805.3309687500005,"end":2809.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2809.8534687500005,"end":2844.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2844.71721875,"end":2850.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2850.57284375,"end":3022.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2869.77659375,"end":2870.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3022.07346875,"end":3024.1659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3024.73971875,"end":3033.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3033.24471875,"end":3064.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3065.12159375,"end":3100.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3078.73971875,"end":3079.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3079.0772187500006,"end":3079.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3079.16159375,"end":3079.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3080.2247187500006,"end":3080.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3101.1834687500004,"end":3101.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3102.43221875,"end":3114.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3104.1872187500003,"end":3104.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3105.4697187500005,"end":3105.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3113.6034687500005,"end":3128.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3117.5184687500005,"end":3118.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3128.8584687500006,"end":3159.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3158.23784375,"end":3184.2422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3184.49534375,"end":3186.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3185.9297187500006,"end":3187.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3188.4609687500006,"end":3188.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3188.47784375,"end":3189.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3191.98784375,"end":3194.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3211.9003437500005,"end":3213.2334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3213.8915937500005,"end":3214.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3215.47784375,"end":3216.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3216.7940937500007,"end":3217.2159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3223.98284375,"end":3225.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3225.85596875,"end":3227.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3227.3409687500007,"end":3233.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3233.33159375,"end":3237.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3237.65159375,"end":3244.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3245.43096875,"end":3253.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3254.9147187500002,"end":3255.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3255.43784375,"end":3258.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3259.0997187500006,"end":3262.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3262.5084687500002,"end":3278.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3279.2147187500004,"end":3301.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3301.9284687500003,"end":3308.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3309.3028437500006,"end":3326.4647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3326.6334687500002,"end":3333.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3334.93596875,"end":3346.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3347.47409375,"end":3371.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3371.87534375,"end":3374.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3375.0309687500003,"end":3375.8240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3376.2628437500007,"end":3377.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3378.74346875,"end":3379.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3379.9753437500003,"end":3386.6915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3386.9784687500005,"end":3390.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3391.0790937500005,"end":3408.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3409.2703437500004,"end":3414.8728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3416.1384687500004,"end":3418.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3418.9734687500004,"end":3419.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3420.93096875,"end":3425.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3426.17909375,"end":3436.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3436.8272187500006,"end":3447.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3447.5597187500007,"end":3452.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3453.6853437500004,"end":3457.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3457.88721875,"end":3464.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3465.5147187500006,"end":3465.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3466.93221875,"end":3471.1172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3471.4884687500007,"end":3472.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3472.1465937500006,"end":3474.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3475.42034375,"end":3476.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3477.0740937500004,"end":3478.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3478.6603437500007,"end":3480.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3481.7147187500004,"end":3483.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3484.0097187500005,"end":3490.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3491.38409375,"end":3495.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3495.2653437500003,"end":3495.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3495.8897187500006,"end":3501.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3502.16721875,"end":3509.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3509.52471875,"end":3519.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3520.39221875,"end":3530.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3531.4284687500003,"end":3535.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3535.1072187500004,"end":3535.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3536.33909375,"end":3540.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3540.9628437500005,"end":3541.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3541.1484687500006,"end":3550.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3550.8347187500003,"end":3553.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3553.95659375,"end":3554.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3555.03659375,"end":3577.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3577.46346875,"end":3577.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3578.23971875,"end":3578.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3578.84721875,"end":3585.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3589.39409375,"end":3590.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3592.1953437500006,"end":3595.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3603.55221875,"end":3604.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3604.32846875,"end":3605.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3605.47596875,"end":3606.1172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3606.45471875,"end":3607.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3616.25909375,"end":3618.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3618.67221875,"end":3623.2790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3623.7009687500004,"end":3648.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3648.62534375,"end":3649.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3649.40159375,"end":3649.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3650.07659375,"end":3652.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3653.0465937500003,"end":3655.0040937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3655.9997187500003,"end":3679.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3680.6034687500005,"end":3727.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3727.6003437500003,"end":3728.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3728.78159375,"end":3732.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3733.48971875,"end":3733.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3735.1940937500003,"end":3760.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3760.37159375,"end":3760.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3761.09721875,"end":3773.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3772.23471875,"end":3773.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3773.80409375,"end":3794.7628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3795.03284375,"end":3799.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3800.87159375,"end":3813.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3814.79346875,"end":3819.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3819.0459687500006,"end":3819.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3819.61971875,"end":3819.6365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3819.6365937500004,"end":3820.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3820.6490937500002,"end":3821.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3821.66159375,"end":3848.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3821.6784687500003,"end":3821.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3848.1384687500004,"end":3855.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3854.56784375,"end":3886.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3856.42409375,"end":3856.9978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3858.60096875,"end":3859.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3886.9678437500006,"end":3897.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3893.8359687500006,"end":3931.3322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3932.1084687500006,"end":3967.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3967.9678437500006,"end":3987.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3987.52596875,"end":4022.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3987.5428437500004,"end":3987.7453437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4022.59221875,"end":4023.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4024.0265937500008,"end":4081.4015937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4081.4015937500008,"end":4081.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4081.9415937500007,"end":4093.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4093.0284687500007,"end":4101.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4101.76971875,"end":4102.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4110.831593749999,"end":4113.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4113.784718749999,"end":4114.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4119.792218750001,"end":4122.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4122.779093749999,"end":4123.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4123.79159375,"end":4124.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4134.794093750001,"end":4135.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4135.485968749999,"end":4136.144093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4136.144093749999,"end":4151.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4152.47909375,"end":4177.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4176.66096875,"end":4206.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4207.440968749999,"end":4211.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4212.267218749999,"end":4212.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4213.19534375,"end":4214.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4215.38909375,"end":4246.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4244.717843750001,"end":4247.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4247.940968749999,"end":4248.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4248.44721875,"end":4250.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4249.5947187500005,"end":4255.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4251.0965937500005,"end":4253.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4253.847218749999,"end":4295.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4296.76034375,"end":4353.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4354.2197187500005,"end":4360.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4361.475968750001,"end":4366.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4367.1122187500005,"end":4368.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4368.24284375,"end":4371.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4372.545968750001,"end":4395.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4395.647843750001,"end":4405.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4406.22846875,"end":4433.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4433.430968750001,"end":4433.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4434.39284375,"end":4451.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4438.51034375,"end":4439.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4439.59034375,"end":4439.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4439.8603437500005,"end":4439.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4451.571593750001,"end":4461.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4462.37159375,"end":4467.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4464.3290937500005,"end":4466.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4466.96159375,"end":4470.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4471.112843749999,"end":4473.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4471.23096875,"end":4473.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4474.015343749999,"end":4474.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4474.167218750001,"end":4485.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4474.825343750001,"end":4474.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4475.97284375,"end":4478.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4478.13284375,"end":4478.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4479.82034375,"end":4481.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4482.16596875,"end":4495.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4496.08784375,"end":4535.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4496.712218750001,"end":4505.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4535.845343749999,"end":4535.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4535.96346875,"end":4538.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4538.17409375,"end":4541.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4542.29159375,"end":4550.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4551.184718750001,"end":4554.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4555.116593750001,"end":4557.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4557.934718750001,"end":4560.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4562.187218749999,"end":4566.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4566.827843749999,"end":4567.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4568.009093750001,"end":4570.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4570.37159375,"end":4571.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4572.43034375,"end":4610.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4610.73659375,"end":4612.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4613.706593749999,"end":4629.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4629.56909375,"end":4630.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4630.83471875,"end":4631.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4633.028468750001,"end":4635.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4636.217843750001,"end":4651.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4651.47284375,"end":4654.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4655.202218750001,"end":4659.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4662.91409375,"end":4669.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4669.2928437499995,"end":4676.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4676.36346875,"end":4735.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4729.99221875,"end":4730.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4735.814093749999,"end":4741.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4741.80471875,"end":4756.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4756.958468750001,"end":4761.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4759.18596875,"end":4761.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4761.599093750001,"end":4761.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4761.7509687500005,"end":4764.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4762.22346875,"end":4763.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4764.24846875,"end":4774.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4775.048468749999,"end":4779.689093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4780.04346875,"end":4788.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4788.885968750001,"end":4791.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4791.0965937500005,"end":4804.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4803.48284375,"end":4812.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4805.40659375,"end":4805.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4813.860968749999,"end":4817.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4818.029093749999,"end":4823.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4819.716593749999,"end":4824.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4824.81284375,"end":4824.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4825.352843750001,"end":4828.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4826.36534375,"end":4827.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4829.0653437500005,"end":4832.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4830.48284375,"end":4842.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4833.85784375,"end":4834.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4838.903468750001,"end":4838.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4838.92034375,"end":4846.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4842.02534375,"end":4842.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4842.66659375,"end":4842.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4842.970343749999,"end":4849.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4850.86784375,"end":4902.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4853.061593750001,"end":4863.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4902.20159375,"end":4911.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4902.77534375,"end":4904.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4910.45346875,"end":4911.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4913.06909375,"end":4916.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4913.4403437500005,"end":4915.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4915.532843749999,"end":4920.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4919.1103437500005,"end":4919.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4921.08471875,"end":4921.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4921.590968750001,"end":4922.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4922.046593749999,"end":4922.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4922.620343750001,"end":4930.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4926.5184687500005,"end":4928.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4928.138468749999,"end":4928.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4928.610968749999,"end":4933.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4930.97346875,"end":4931.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4931.6990937499995,"end":4931.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4931.73284375,"end":4931.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4932.745343750001,"end":4932.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4932.76221875,"end":4933.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4934.97284375,"end":4936.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4936.60971875,"end":4938.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4938.786593750001,"end":4939.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4939.815968750001,"end":4942.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4943.106593750001,"end":4943.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4946.63346875,"end":4947.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4953.872843749999,"end":4956.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4958.3447187500005,"end":4959.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4960.84221875,"end":4960.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4966.731593750001,"end":4967.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4967.45721875,"end":5030.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5031.21096875,"end":5032.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5033.050343750001,"end":5038.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5039.31096875,"end":5046.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5046.9384687500005,"end":5047.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5047.343468749999,"end":5050.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5050.85346875,"end":5103.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5068.89284375,"end":5068.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5069.02784375,"end":5069.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5094.779093749999,"end":5094.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5104.1278437500005,"end":5116.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5117.2059687500005,"end":5140.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5141.08409375,"end":5141.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5141.573468750001,"end":5141.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5142.450968749999,"end":5144.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5144.45909375,"end":5169.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5169.06284375,"end":5169.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5169.315968750001,"end":5169.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5170.294718749999,"end":5176.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5176.42034375,"end":5176.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5176.74096875,"end":5182.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5182.69784375,"end":5183.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5182.967843750001,"end":5198.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5193.81846875,"end":5194.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5198.189093749999,"end":5198.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5198.290343750001,"end":5265.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5265.0478437500005,"end":5275.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5273.0634687500005,"end":5273.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5275.61159375,"end":5289.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5289.98909375,"end":5294.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5294.747843749999,"end":5295.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5295.929093750001,"end":5296.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5296.772843750001,"end":5311.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5311.89284375,"end":5312.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5311.99409375,"end":5336.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5336.5809687500005,"end":5337.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5337.222218750001,"end":5350.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5350.5028437500005,"end":5356.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5357.08409375,"end":5358.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5358.653468750001,"end":5359.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5359.311593750001,"end":5360.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5360.12159375,"end":5360.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5360.3240937499995,"end":5368.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5368.440968750001,"end":5369.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5370.29721875,"end":5371.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5372.001593749999,"end":5374.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5374.3134687500005,"end":5381.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5382.02534375,"end":5386.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5386.17659375,"end":5462.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5462.45159375,"end":5501.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5501.382218750001,"end":5501.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5501.60159375,"end":5544.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5544.936593750001,"end":5573.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5573.11784375,"end":5573.657843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5573.657843749999,"end":5573.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5573.77596875,"end":5574.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5574.5184687500005,"end":5574.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5578.70346875,"end":5581.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5591.292218750001,"end":5597.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5597.13096875,"end":5598.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5598.76784375,"end":5599.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5603.22284375,"end":5603.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5603.72909375,"end":5604.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5604.91034375,"end":5631.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5631.5897187499995,"end":5635.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5635.99409375,"end":5636.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5636.095343749999,"end":5639.048468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5639.234093749999,"end":5659.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5659.669718749999,"end":5672.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5673.10221875,"end":5677.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5677.489718750001,"end":5678.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5679.548468749999,"end":5684.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5684.44221875,"end":5700.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5684.897843750001,"end":5685.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5700.33846875,"end":5701.485968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5702.21159375,"end":5712.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5713.062218749999,"end":5726.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5726.8153437500005,"end":5776.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5777.06909375,"end":5790.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5791.210343750001,"end":5807.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5808.270968750001,"end":5809.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5809.722218750001,"end":5835.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5835.929093750001,"end":5841.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5842.122218750001,"end":5875.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5875.585343750001,"end":5887.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5888.30909375,"end":5906.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5908.52534375,"end":5939.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5940.11534375,"end":5977.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5980.159718750001,"end":6004.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6004.88159375,"end":6005.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6005.185343749999,"end":6067.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6067.437218749999,"end":6083.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6080.194718750001,"end":6080.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6083.198468750001,"end":6084.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6084.464093750001,"end":6099.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6099.9384687500005,"end":6124.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6124.626593750001,"end":6126.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6126.651593750001,"end":6152.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6153.077843749999,"end":6170.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6170.7459687499995,"end":6180.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6181.124093750001,"end":6185.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6185.747843749999,"end":6193.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6193.206593750001,"end":6193.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6193.47659375,"end":6193.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6196.3622187500005,"end":6196.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6196.37909375,"end":6197.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6198.10034375,"end":6201.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6211.870343750001,"end":6216.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6218.45159375,"end":6218.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6223.0584687499995,"end":6240.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6224.03721875,"end":6224.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6241.485968750001,"end":6242.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6242.07659375,"end":6271.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6273.24471875,"end":6273.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6274.915343750001,"end":6277.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6276.366593750001,"end":6277.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6278.08784375,"end":6278.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6278.86409375,"end":6285.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6286.3397187499995,"end":6286.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6286.79534375,"end":6287.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6288.85409375,"end":6294.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6289.1747187500005,"end":6292.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6292.60034375,"end":6292.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6293.055968750001,"end":6309.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6309.72846875,"end":6312.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6311.77034375,"end":6311.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6311.82096875,"end":6312.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6313.592843750001,"end":6325.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6325.32096875,"end":6332.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6332.560343749999,"end":6337.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6335.243468750001,"end":6337.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6337.42034375,"end":6375.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6376.857218749999,"end":6378.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6378.932843750001,"end":6379.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6379.675343750001,"end":6380.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6381.71721875,"end":6382.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6382.00409375,"end":6382.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6383.26971875,"end":6385.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6385.9697187500005,"end":6386.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6391.55534375,"end":6452.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6453.4022187499995,"end":6460.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6461.2997187500005,"end":6471.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6462.497843749999,"end":6462.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6470.513468749999,"end":6473.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6474.20909375,"end":6475.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6475.66034375,"end":6476.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6476.79096875,"end":6479.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6478.343468749999,"end":6478.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6479.27159375,"end":6523.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6524.86784375,"end":6527.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6527.145968750001,"end":6527.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6527.31471875,"end":6527.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6527.36534375,"end":6527.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6527.39909375,"end":6528.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6528.512843750001,"end":6528.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6528.52971875,"end":6530.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6531.01034375,"end":6538.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6537.81096875,"end":6540.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6538.78971875,"end":6555.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6543.58221875,"end":6545.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6554.989718750001,"end":6559.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6559.69784375,"end":6567.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6564.929093750001,"end":6566.515343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6567.595343750001,"end":6605.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6605.530343750001,"end":6607.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6607.04909375,"end":6614.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6615.604718750001,"end":6620.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6621.089093750001,"end":6621.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6621.1903437500005,"end":6621.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6621.274718750001,"end":6621.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6622.10159375,"end":6623.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6624.042218750001,"end":6626.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6627.48471875,"end":6641.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6633.81284375,"end":6639.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6641.08596875,"end":6686.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6687.357218749999,"end":6701.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6689.7197187500005,"end":6691.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6701.430968750001,"end":6701.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6701.4647187499995,"end":6746.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6746.841593749999,"end":6756.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6756.62909375,"end":6758.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6758.755343750001,"end":6768.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6765.35346875,"end":6765.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6765.420968750001,"end":6765.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6765.977843750001,"end":6766.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6766.720343750001,"end":6766.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6768.795968750001,"end":6768.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6768.86346875,"end":6768.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6768.91409375,"end":6769.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6769.217843750001,"end":6769.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6769.302218750001,"end":6792.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6793.4334687499995,"end":6793.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6793.80471875,"end":6794.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6797.044718749999,"end":6797.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6800.335343750001,"end":6803.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6815.32034375,"end":6817.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6818.03721875,"end":6818.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6826.592843750001,"end":6838.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6838.6415937500005,"end":6840.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6840.86909375,"end":6841.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6842.472218750001,"end":6845.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6845.96534375,"end":6846.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6846.85971875,"end":6849.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6849.86346875,"end":6853.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6854.284718750001,"end":6854.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6854.858468750001,"end":6855.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6855.972218750001,"end":6857.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6857.389718750001,"end":6859.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6860.477843750001,"end":6864.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6864.94971875,"end":6867.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6868.24034375,"end":6869.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6870.01221875,"end":6872.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6873.11721875,"end":6886.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6887.03909375,"end":6888.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6890.009093750001,"end":6894.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6894.7509687500005,"end":6895.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6895.93221875,"end":6900.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6900.690968750001,"end":6902.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6903.458468750001,"end":6905.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6905.9559687500005,"end":6915.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6915.11909375,"end":6918.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6919.10159375,"end":6921.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6921.86909375,"end":6922.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6922.915343750001,"end":6928.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6929.327843750001,"end":6934.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6935.571593750001,"end":6936.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6936.229718750001,"end":6941.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6942.405968750001,"end":6944.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6945.44346875,"end":6948.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6949.74659375,"end":6963.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6963.56721875,"end":6975.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6975.919718749999,"end":6977.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6979.210343750001,"end":6979.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6979.632218750001,"end":6979.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6981.1678437499995,"end":6981.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6981.184718750001,"end":6981.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6982.61909375,"end":6984.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6984.86346875,"end":6986.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6987.327218750001,"end":6991.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6991.47846875,"end":6995.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6995.849093750001,"end":7007.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7007.67846875,"end":7012.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7013.21346875,"end":7014.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7014.42846875,"end":7015.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7015.03596875,"end":7015.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7015.3397187499995,"end":7017.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7015.356593750001,"end":7015.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7015.778468750001,"end":7018.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7019.06909375,"end":7020.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7020.604718750001,"end":7022.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7022.241593750001,"end":7022.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7022.25846875,"end":7022.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7022.96721875,"end":7023.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7023.878468750001,"end":7030.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7030.47659375,"end":7030.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7030.864718750001,"end":7031.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7030.89846875,"end":7033.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7033.22721875,"end":7034.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7034.712218750001,"end":7036.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7037.12534375,"end":7037.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7038.1209687499995,"end":7039.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7040.331593750001,"end":7042.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7042.94721875,"end":7043.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7043.97659375,"end":7045.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7046.03534375,"end":7047.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7047.72284375,"end":7048.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7048.819718750001,"end":7049.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7050.270968750001,"end":7051.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7052.16096875,"end":7060.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7060.9697187500005,"end":7061.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7061.96534375,"end":7065.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7062.01596875,"end":7062.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7065.509093750001,"end":7067.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7068.00659375,"end":7069.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7070.284718750001,"end":7076.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7076.25846875,"end":7079.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7077.20346875,"end":7077.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7078.958468750001,"end":7079.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7079.97096875,"end":7080.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7080.10596875,"end":7080.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7080.173468750001,"end":7084.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7084.00409375,"end":7084.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7084.29096875,"end":7092.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7092.62721875,"end":7096.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7096.964093750001,"end":7101.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7102.17846875,"end":7107.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7107.274718750001,"end":7107.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7107.29159375,"end":7107.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7107.34221875,"end":7107.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7107.544718749999,"end":7108.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7107.561593750001,"end":7107.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7109.11409375,"end":7113.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7113.687218750001,"end":7115.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7115.86409375,"end":7117.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7117.8553437499995,"end":7122.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7122.95159375,"end":7123.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7124.6728437500005,"end":7125.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7126.157843750001,"end":7127.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7128.132218750001,"end":7131.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7132.350968750001,"end":7133.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7133.194718750001,"end":7133.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7133.987843750001,"end":7134.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7134.86534375,"end":7148.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7145.49659375,"end":7156.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7150.37346875,"end":7150.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7156.482218749999,"end":7181.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7182.62159375,"end":7184.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7185.25409375,"end":7188.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7188.780968750001,"end":7190.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7191.278468750001,"end":7203.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7204.305968750001,"end":7206.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7206.972218750001,"end":7229.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7230.58034375,"end":7231.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7232.234093750001,"end":7232.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7233.11159375,"end":7236.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7237.43159375,"end":7246.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7246.780343750001,"end":7248.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7249.4803437499995,"end":7250.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7250.982218749999,"end":7251.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7252.55159375,"end":7255.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7255.92659375,"end":7256.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7256.939093750001,"end":7258.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7259.048468750001,"end":7264.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7264.46534375,"end":7266.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7266.507218750001,"end":7271.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7272.05909375,"end":7272.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7272.16034375,"end":7272.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7272.885968750001,"end":7273.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7273.155968750001,"end":7273.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7273.18971875,"end":7273.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7273.341593749999,"end":7273.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7273.42596875,"end":7273.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7273.69596875,"end":7273.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7273.780343750001,"end":7273.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7273.8309687500005,"end":7273.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7273.915343750001,"end":7273.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7273.9490937499995,"end":7273.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7273.965968750001,"end":7274.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7274.0165937500005,"end":7274.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7274.843468750001,"end":7279.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7280.564093750001,"end":7281.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7281.374093750001,"end":7283.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7284.749093750001,"end":7292.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7291.448468750001,"end":7295.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7293.06846875,"end":7293.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7295.4647187499995,"end":7315.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7314.56721875,"end":7315.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7316.54159375,"end":7321.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7321.97534375,"end":7321.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7321.99221875,"end":7322.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7322.059718750001,"end":7322.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7322.12721875,"end":7325.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7322.194718750001,"end":7323.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7325.755343750001,"end":7336.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7329.5184687500005,"end":7330.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7332.134093750001,"end":7334.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7336.23471875,"end":7339.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7339.45784375,"end":7345.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7345.583468750001,"end":7353.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7354.307843750001,"end":7359.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7359.96096875,"end":7364.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7365.25971875,"end":7375.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7374.62534375,"end":7376.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7377.1903437500005,"end":7378.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7379.654093749999,"end":7384.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7382.151593750001,"end":7393.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7384.61534375,"end":7385.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7389.458468750001,"end":7389.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7389.694718750001,"end":7389.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7389.71159375,"end":7389.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7389.72846875,"end":7389.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7392.310343749999,"end":7393.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7393.069718750001,"end":7393.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7393.2215937500005,"end":7393.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7393.84596875,"end":7394.048468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7394.21721875,"end":7394.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7396.680968750001,"end":7396.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7398.925343750001,"end":7411.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7419.68159375,"end":7420.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7420.913468750001,"end":7421.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7431.49409375,"end":7432.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7433.26596875,"end":7433.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7433.856593750001,"end":7435.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7436.87721875,"end":7437.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7437.923468750001,"end":7441.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7441.99034375,"end":7444.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7444.33596875,"end":7444.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7445.41596875,"end":7452.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7452.7059687500005,"end":7458.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7458.966593749999,"end":7459.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7460.45159375,"end":7468.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7469.513468749999,"end":7478.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7470.880343750001,"end":7471.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7478.187218750001,"end":7486.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7486.70909375,"end":7511.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7512.71346875,"end":7520.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7521.10034375,"end":7523.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7524.1209687499995,"end":7525.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7525.42034375,"end":7525.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7525.52159375,"end":7536.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7537.14846875,"end":7541.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7541.9072187500005,"end":7542.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7542.21096875,"end":7564.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7564.958468750001,"end":7565.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7565.295968750001,"end":7586.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7586.25471875,"end":7622.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7622.97471875,"end":7629.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7629.35346875,"end":7634.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7634.58471875,"end":7639.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7640.5584687499995,"end":7644.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7642.70159375,"end":7642.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7643.22471875,"end":7678.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7679.13471875,"end":7679.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7679.151593750001,"end":7694.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7695.790343750001,"end":7702.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7702.911593750001,"end":7712.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7712.243468750001,"end":7723.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7724.22471875,"end":7724.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7725.608468750001,"end":7727.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7727.903468750001,"end":7730.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7730.654093749999,"end":7732.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7732.358468750001,"end":7735.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7736.17221875,"end":7737.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7737.370343750001,"end":7740.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7740.407843750001,"end":7741.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7741.589093750001,"end":7752.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7753.165343750001,"end":7755.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7756.32096875,"end":7759.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7759.56096875,"end":7759.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7759.74659375,"end":7759.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7759.864718750001,"end":7765.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7766.07471875,"end":7768.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7768.74096875,"end":7769.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7770.327218750001,"end":7772.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7772.200343750001,"end":7774.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7775.87909375,"end":7787.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7778.54534375,"end":7780.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7780.75596875,"end":7783.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7787.522843750001,"end":7787.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7788.045968750001,"end":7799.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7799.97659375,"end":7802.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7802.82846875,"end":7803.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7803.975968750001,"end":7807.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7807.94159375,"end":7808.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7808.31284375,"end":7827.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7810.6415937500005,"end":7811.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7817.661593750001,"end":7818.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7819.36596875,"end":7819.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7828.03971875,"end":7834.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7834.030343750001,"end":7850.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7844.27346875,"end":7846.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7846.534718750001,"end":7846.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7846.88909375,"end":7846.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7846.956593750001,"end":7847.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7847.96909375,"end":7848.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7850.63534375,"end":7852.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7852.964093750001,"end":7858.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7859.1572187500005,"end":7860.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7861.249718750001,"end":7862.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7863.409718750001,"end":7864.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7864.89471875,"end":7865.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7864.911593750001,"end":7865.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7865.7215937500005,"end":7865.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7865.73846875,"end":7865.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7865.856593750001,"end":7865.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7865.87346875,"end":7865.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7865.9072187500005,"end":7865.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7865.97471875,"end":7866.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7866.86909375,"end":7868.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7866.885968750001,"end":7870.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7871.54346875,"end":7875.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7876.403468750001,"end":7886.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7886.62971875,"end":7892.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7891.202843750001,"end":7892.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7893.10971875,"end":7913.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7913.78159375,"end":7931.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7929.880343750001,"end":7959.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7959.360968750001,"end":7987.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7988.1834687499995,"end":7989.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7989.95534375,"end":7991.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7992.80721875,"end":7994.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7995.321593750001,"end":8000.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8001.00846875,"end":8014.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8014.52534375,"end":8015.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8016.921593750001,"end":8020.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8021.02221875,"end":8029.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8029.965968750001,"end":8041.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8041.69409375,"end":8051.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8051.65034375,"end":8057.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8057.624093750001,"end":8062.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8063.614718750001,"end":8064.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8066.68596875,"end":8068.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8068.4072187500005,"end":8070.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8084.16846875,"end":8085.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8086.767218750001,"end":8087.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8096.08221875,"end":8101.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8096.841593750001,"end":8097.685343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8102.292218750001,"end":8102.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8103.085343750001,"end":8104.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8105.7684687500005,"end":8107.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8107.55721875,"end":8110.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8111.08409375,"end":8112.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8112.653468750001,"end":8113.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8113.88534375,"end":8116.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8117.02409375,"end":8117.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8117.44596875,"end":8121.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8121.44534375,"end":8122.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8122.862843750001,"end":8123.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8124.63471875,"end":8131.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8131.89096875,"end":8134.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8134.60784375,"end":8135.654093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8136.29534375,"end":8137.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8138.708468750001,"end":8139.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8140.64909375,"end":8141.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8142.33659375,"end":8143.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8144.02409375,"end":8147.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8148.597218750001,"end":8151.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8152.3603437500005,"end":8161.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8161.23659375,"end":8162.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8163.700343750001,"end":8166.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8168.897843750001,"end":8169.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8169.96096875,"end":8171.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8171.850968750001,"end":8172.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8173.4540937500005,"end":8179.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8180.1365937499995,"end":8190.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8190.497843750001,"end":8201.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8201.51721875,"end":8204.993468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8205.769718750002,"end":8207.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8207.524718749999,"end":8209.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8210.86596875,"end":8214.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8213.009093749999,"end":8221.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8221.93596875,"end":8223.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8223.657218750002,"end":8226.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8229.546593750001,"end":8231.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8231.41971875,"end":8232.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8232.65159375,"end":8237.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8238.11909375,"end":8244.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8244.86909375,"end":8246.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8248.56471875,"end":8255.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8255.41596875,"end":8256.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8257.06971875,"end":8257.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8258.402843750002,"end":8269.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8270.13096875,"end":8272.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8272.527218750001,"end":8280.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8280.644093750001,"end":8282.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8283.05721875,"end":8286.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8288.71034375,"end":8293.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8295.004718750002,"end":8298.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8298.852218750002,"end":8307.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8309.297843750002,"end":8309.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8309.85471875,"end":8309.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8310.175343750001,"end":8312.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8312.58846875,"end":8313.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8313.48284375,"end":8340.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8340.870968750001,"end":8343.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8345.528468750003,"end":8346.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8346.726593750001,"end":8351.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8351.56971875,"end":8354.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8355.14721875,"end":8360.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8361.441593750002,"end":8361.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8362.26846875,"end":8366.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8370.21659375,"end":8371.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8371.414718750002,"end":8373.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8373.034718750001,"end":8377.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8373.70971875,"end":8375.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8379.278468750003,"end":8380.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8381.15159375,"end":8383.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8384.13846875,"end":8388.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8388.57659375,"end":8390.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8390.11221875,"end":8403.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8403.696593750003,"end":8407.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8407.29096875,"end":8415.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8415.20534375,"end":8415.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8417.972843750002,"end":8418.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8418.90096875,"end":8423.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8423.625968750002,"end":8435.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8433.362843750001,"end":8433.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8435.67471875,"end":8439.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8437.04159375,"end":8443.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8443.504718750002,"end":8444.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8445.27659375,"end":8446.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8447.200343750003,"end":8447.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8447.89221875,"end":8448.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8449.32659375,"end":8450.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8451.18284375,"end":8457.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8457.81471875,"end":8459.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8460.14346875,"end":8468.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8469.05346875,"end":8471.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8472.192218750002,"end":8473.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8474.723468750002,"end":8477.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8478.13221875,"end":8479.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8480.71409375,"end":8483.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8484.359093750001,"end":8485.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8485.30409375,"end":8487.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8487.02534375,"end":8487.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8487.329093750002,"end":8487.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8488.425968750002,"end":8488.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8488.476593750001,"end":8490.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8491.075343750003,"end":8491.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8492.72909375,"end":8499.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8500.49159375,"end":8501.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8501.41971875,"end":8504.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8504.997218750003,"end":8517.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8517.585968750001,"end":8518.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8518.14284375,"end":8518.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8518.328468750002,"end":8520.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8521.56846875,"end":8526.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8523.542843750001,"end":8524.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8526.192218750002,"end":8535.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8535.13596875,"end":8539.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8540.046593750001,"end":8542.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8542.61159375,"end":8543.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8543.97846875,"end":8544.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8544.02909375,"end":8547.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8547.387218750002,"end":8549.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8550.137843750003,"end":8552.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8551.15034375,"end":8553.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8553.884093750003,"end":8553.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8553.934718750003,"end":8555.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8553.985343750002,"end":8554.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8556.094718750002,"end":8569.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8566.371593750002,"end":8566.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8566.38846875,"end":8567.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8568.683468750001,"end":8568.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8568.93659375,"end":8569.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8569.071593750003,"end":8570.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8570.97846875,"end":8572.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8573.03721875,"end":8578.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8575.433468750001,"end":8580.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8581.22159375,"end":8584.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8581.67721875,"end":8584.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8584.74846875,"end":8584.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8584.765343750001,"end":8584.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8585.27159375,"end":8597.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8594.789093750001,"end":8597.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8597.40471875,"end":8597.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8597.438468750002,"end":8597.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8597.67471875,"end":8599.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8599.800968750002,"end":8602.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8603.98596875,"end":8605.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8605.36971875,"end":8620.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8620.65846875,"end":8621.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8622.39659375,"end":8623.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8623.847843750002,"end":8625.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8625.906593750002,"end":8627.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8627.47596875,"end":8630.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8630.41221875,"end":8640.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8640.874718750001,"end":8644.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8645.76846875,"end":8645.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8645.785343750002,"end":8649.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8650.03784375,"end":8658.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8658.087218750003,"end":8660.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8661.512843750003,"end":8662.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8662.727843750003,"end":8664.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8664.972218750001,"end":8667.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8667.97596875,"end":8675.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8676.008468750002,"end":8679.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8678.77596875,"end":8681.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8681.45909375,"end":8683.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8684.125343750002,"end":8685.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8685.99846875,"end":8686.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8687.280968750001,"end":8688.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8689.79534375,"end":8689.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8689.812218750001,"end":8689.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8689.91346875,"end":8690.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8690.031593750002,"end":8694.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8695.33034375,"end":8702.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8702.535968750002,"end":8704.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8704.29096875,"end":8706.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8706.602843750003,"end":8709.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8710.281593750002,"end":8711.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8712.340343750002,"end":8714.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8714.702843750001,"end":8729.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8729.384093750003,"end":8731.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8732.219093750002,"end":8733.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8733.704093750002,"end":8734.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8734.547843750002,"end":8734.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8734.56471875,"end":8734.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8735.070968750002,"end":8736.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8736.437843750002,"end":8743.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8743.035968750002,"end":8744.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8744.622218750003,"end":8746.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8745.870968750001,"end":8752.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8751.43971875,"end":8767.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8756.56971875,"end":8756.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8756.957843750002,"end":8756.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8757.683468750001,"end":8758.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8767.63971875,"end":8772.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8770.54221875,"end":8779.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8780.262218750002,"end":8781.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8781.64596875,"end":8782.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8783.56971875,"end":8789.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8789.52659375,"end":8793.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8791.011593750001,"end":8793.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8793.52596875,"end":8793.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8793.84659375,"end":8808.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8793.930968750003,"end":8797.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8808.308468750001,"end":8813.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8814.062843750002,"end":8820.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8820.40784375,"end":8820.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8820.42471875,"end":8821.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8820.610343750002,"end":8822.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8822.98971875,"end":8823.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8823.445343750001,"end":8824.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8824.52534375,"end":8827.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8828.01846875,"end":8828.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8828.05221875,"end":8829.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8830.39784375,"end":8831.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8832.76034375,"end":8833.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8834.312843750002,"end":8836.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8837.485343750002,"end":8838.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8839.054718750001,"end":8845.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8846.15909375,"end":8848.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8849.247218750003,"end":8850.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8851.305968750003,"end":8852.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8852.993468750003,"end":8854.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8854.664093750001,"end":8858.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8859.18659375,"end":8860.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8860.82346875,"end":8862.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8862.93284375,"end":8864.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8864.72159375,"end":8867.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8868.012218750002,"end":8868.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8869.24409375,"end":8871.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8871.437843750002,"end":8873.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8873.715968750003,"end":8874.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8875.032218750002,"end":8875.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8875.96034375,"end":8877.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8877.83346875,"end":8882.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8882.32221875,"end":8882.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8882.33909375,"end":8882.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8882.81159375,"end":8893.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8883.520343750002,"end":8884.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8885.579093750002,"end":8887.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8888.24534375,"end":8889.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8892.227843750003,"end":8892.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8892.430343750002,"end":8892.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8892.56534375,"end":8895.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8897.003468750001,"end":8900.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8901.542843750001,"end":8904.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8904.36096875,"end":8904.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8904.664718750002,"end":8911.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8910.891593750002,"end":8915.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8913.22034375,"end":8926.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8927.73284375,"end":8938.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8940.69284375,"end":8943.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8944.50659375,"end":8962.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8963.33909375,"end":8971.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8972.046593750001,"end":8972.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8973.059093750002,"end":8977.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8977.649093750002,"end":8980.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8980.922843750002,"end":8986.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8986.356593750003,"end":8989.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8991.250343750002,"end":8997.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8999.97471875,"end":9110.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9112.530968750001,"end":9114.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9114.977843750003,"end":9115.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9115.73721875,"end":9121.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9122.04846875,"end":9123.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9124.37721875,"end":9125.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9125.54159375,"end":9132.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9132.61221875,"end":9134.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9136.29096875,"end":9160.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9160.33784375,"end":9195.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9196.16346875,"end":9197.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9197.226593750001,"end":9320.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9322.574093750001,"end":9337.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9337.84596875,"end":9375.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9375.93284375,"end":9414.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9415.47096875,"end":9422.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9422.946593750003,"end":9428.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9430.77659375,"end":9431.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9433.155968750001,"end":9489.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9489.07971875,"end":9498.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9490.93596875,"end":9491.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9492.539093750001,"end":9493.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9495.087218750003,"end":9495.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9496.99409375,"end":9510.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9510.03846875,"end":9516.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9516.97409375,"end":9535.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9535.519718750002,"end":9535.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9535.55346875,"end":9550.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9550.94346875,"end":9577.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9575.68221875,"end":9580.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9578.297843750002,"end":9578.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9579.495968750001,"end":9594.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9594.632843750001,"end":9594.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9594.66659375,"end":9597.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9594.93659375,"end":9596.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9598.24409375,"end":9612.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9612.68909375,"end":9617.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9614.832218750002,"end":9616.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9616.70534375,"end":9639.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9619.23659375,"end":9619.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9619.590968750003,"end":9619.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9638.89596875,"end":9663.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9664.883468750002,"end":9668.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9665.86221875,"end":9665.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9671.110343750002,"end":9675.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9671.262218750002,"end":9671.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9671.39721875,"end":9671.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9671.92034375,"end":9671.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9673.01721875,"end":9674.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9675.02534375,"end":9677.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9676.40909375,"end":9679.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9678.29909375,"end":9678.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9678.855968750002,"end":9685.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9687.10784375,"end":9731.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9732.02909375,"end":9733.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9732.636593750001,"end":9733.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9734.50971875,"end":9734.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9736.028468750003,"end":9737.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9736.56846875,"end":9737.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9737.95221875,"end":9738.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9738.964718750001,"end":9738.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9739.15034375,"end":9739.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9739.30221875,"end":9739.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9740.179718750001,"end":9741.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9740.280968750001,"end":9741.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9741.64784375,"end":9747.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9747.73971875,"end":9747.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9747.97596875,"end":9748.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9748.195343750001,"end":9748.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9750.777218750001,"end":9759.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9767.500343750002,"end":9770.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9770.09909375,"end":9770.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9770.622218750003,"end":9771.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9771.027218750001,"end":9771.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9773.05221875,"end":9778.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9778.80659375,"end":9781.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9781.86096875,"end":9789.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9790.26471875,"end":9791.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9791.969093750002,"end":9794.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9795.816593750002,"end":9798.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9798.48284375,"end":9800.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9802.212218750003,"end":9802.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9802.97159375,"end":9807.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9809.434718750003,"end":9812.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9812.20221875,"end":9813.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9878.571593750003,"end":9881.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9881.84534375,"end":9883.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9884.84909375,"end":9884.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9884.86596875,"end":9890.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9890.77221875,"end":9893.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9893.337218750003,"end":9893.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9894.315968750001,"end":9901.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9901.437218750001,"end":9908.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9908.79471875,"end":9908.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9910.58346875,"end":9911.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9912.27096875,"end":9922.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9923.13846875,"end":9926.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9927.47534375,"end":9930.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9930.36096875,"end":9930.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9930.37784375,"end":9942.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9931.20471875,"end":9933.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9937.17846875,"end":9949.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9949.868468750003,"end":9950.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9950.03721875,"end":9950.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9950.83034375,"end":9951.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9951.37034375,"end":9951.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9951.47159375,"end":9951.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9952.36596875,"end":9953.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9954.35721875,"end":9954.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9954.390968750002,"end":9955.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9955.032218750002,"end":9955.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10046.579093750002,"end":10046.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10046.84909375,"end":10046.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10149.027218750001,"end":10152.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10153.12784375,"end":10154.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10154.899718750003,"end":10157.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10157.160968750002,"end":10159.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10160.046593750001,"end":10163.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10164.09659375,"end":10164.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10165.277843750002,"end":10168.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10169.800343750001,"end":10171.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10172.21346875,"end":10173.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10174.862843750001,"end":10185.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10185.274718750003,"end":10185.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10187.14784375,"end":10191.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10191.315968750001,"end":10193.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10193.492843750002,"end":10194.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10194.03284375,"end":10195.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10563.527843750002,"end":10565.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10566.632843750001,"end":10571.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10579.559093750002,"end":10580.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10580.571593750003,"end":10581.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10585.92096875,"end":10588.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10589.49846875,"end":10589.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10590.51096875,"end":10596.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10597.31159375,"end":10603.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10604.027843750002,"end":10606.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10606.49159375,"end":10611.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10612.48221875,"end":10613.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10612.75221875,"end":10612.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10614.692843750003,"end":10614.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10614.70971875,"end":10617.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10617.03846875,"end":10617.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10618.590968750003,"end":10619.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10619.02971875,"end":10619.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10619.18159375,"end":10619.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10619.29971875,"end":10619.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10619.65409375,"end":10635.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10635.617843750002,"end":10635.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10635.972218750001,"end":10658.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10637.828468750002,"end":10637.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10647.34596875,"end":10648.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10648.915343750003,"end":10648.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10659.141593750002,"end":10660.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10660.035968750002,"end":10694.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10660.15409375,"end":10661.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10662.550343750001,"end":10662.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10664.507843750001,"end":10664.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10674.430343750002,"end":10677.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10677.265343750001,"end":10677.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10678.34534375,"end":10680.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10696.199093750001,"end":10697.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10697.954093750002,"end":10703.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10698.02159375,"end":10698.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10698.03846875,"end":10698.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10705.26096875,"end":10707.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10707.77534375,"end":10707.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10708.24784375,"end":10717.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10714.79534375,"end":10715.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10717.02284375,"end":10725.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10717.49534375,"end":10718.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10725.696593750003,"end":10727.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10727.67096875,"end":10732.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10732.277843750002,"end":10735.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10736.969093750002,"end":10747.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10740.664718750002,"end":10743.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10748.511593750001,"end":10753.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10754.18159375,"end":10755.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10756.206593750001,"end":10765.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10766.06159375,"end":10771.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10772.01846875,"end":10775.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10775.612843750001,"end":10776.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10777.23284375,"end":10778.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10777.249718750001,"end":10780.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10780.08471875,"end":10780.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10781.535968750002,"end":10788.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10789.14659375,"end":10794.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10796.16659375,"end":10803.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10804.01346875,"end":10804.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10804.06409375,"end":10810.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10811.13471875,"end":10811.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10811.894093750001,"end":10816.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10817.699093750001,"end":10819.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10820.027843750002,"end":10830.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10826.980343750001,"end":10827.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10830.86159375,"end":10838.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10839.282218750002,"end":10840.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10841.05409375,"end":10851.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10852.883468750002,"end":10854.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10854.33471875,"end":10854.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10854.402218750001,"end":10854.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10854.503468750001,"end":10854.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10856.207843750002,"end":10856.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10856.22471875,"end":10858.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10857.65909375,"end":10858.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10858.23284375,"end":10860.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10860.949718750002,"end":10881.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10863.07596875,"end":10863.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10865.10096875,"end":10865.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10866.383468750002,"end":10867.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10874.196593750003,"end":10874.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10874.95596875,"end":10875.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10877.571593750003,"end":10883.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10884.270968750003,"end":10888.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10889.114093750002,"end":10902.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10903.727843750003,"end":10906.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10907.06909375,"end":10919.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10920.02909375,"end":10925.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10925.09159375,"end":10928.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10929.614093750002,"end":10930.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10932.870968750001,"end":10933.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10933.96784375,"end":10937.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10953.711593750002,"end":10954.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10954.67346875,"end":10955.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10956.765968750002,"end":10965.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10965.355343750001,"end":10971.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10971.750968750002,"end":10982.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10982.90534375,"end":10983.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10983.968468750001,"end":10998.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10999.34159375,"end":11003.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11003.391593750002,"end":11005.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11006.496593750002,"end":11022.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11022.66284375,"end":11024.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11024.789093750001,"end":11025.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11026.61159375,"end":11033.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11033.969093750002,"end":11037.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11039.453468750002,"end":11040.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11041.22534375,"end":11042.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11042.96346875,"end":11043.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11043.06471875,"end":11043.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11043.28409375,"end":11045.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11046.96284375,"end":11050.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11051.40096875,"end":11055.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11056.109093750001,"end":11063.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11064.242843750002,"end":11064.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11065.187843750002,"end":11067.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11067.516593750002,"end":11070.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11071.144718750002,"end":11073.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11073.92909375,"end":11076.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11077.574093750001,"end":11078.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11078.957843750002,"end":11086.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11086.500968750002,"end":11087.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11087.445968750002,"end":11092.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11091.985343750002,"end":11095.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11094.668468750002,"end":11099.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11095.664093750001,"end":11096.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11099.91659375,"end":11120.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11121.21284375,"end":11134.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11135.910968750002,"end":11151.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11152.262843750003,"end":11159.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11160.008468750002,"end":11161.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11162.337218750003,"end":11162.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11163.282218750002,"end":11174.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11175.11159375,"end":11215.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11215.98284375,"end":11222.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11222.36159375,"end":11226.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11227.32284375,"end":11228.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11228.723468750002,"end":11235.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11236.06409375,"end":11244.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11245.21034375,"end":11246.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11246.30721875,"end":11255.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11256.22971875,"end":11257.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11258.42346875,"end":11259.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11260.769093750001,"end":11262.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11263.671593750001,"end":11267.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11267.687843750002,"end":11274.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11276.04096875,"end":11282.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11282.80784375,"end":11288.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11288.410343750002,"end":11288.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11288.44409375,"end":11288.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11288.460968750001,"end":11288.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11288.612843750001,"end":11292.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11288.66346875,"end":11288.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11292.257843750001,"end":11292.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11292.71346875,"end":11295.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11295.582218750002,"end":11297.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11297.87721875,"end":11299.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11299.530968750001,"end":11306.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11306.669093750003,"end":11309.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11309.200343750003,"end":11314.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11314.85346875,"end":11319.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11319.76409375,"end":11325.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11326.058468750001,"end":11328.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11329.382843750001,"end":11341.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11341.02659375,"end":11349.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11344.266593750002,"end":11344.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11347.624718750001,"end":11355.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11356.281593750002,"end":11365.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11365.630343750003,"end":11365.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11365.714718750001,"end":11365.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11365.86659375,"end":11366.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11366.136593750001,"end":11367.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11366.153468750003,"end":11371.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11370.794093750003,"end":11371.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11371.33409375,"end":11371.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11371.35096875,"end":11371.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11371.38471875,"end":11371.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11371.97534375,"end":11373.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11373.359093750001,"end":11373.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11373.426593750002,"end":11391.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11376.44721875,"end":11376.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11376.97034375,"end":11377.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11391.95534375,"end":11408.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11409.218468750001,"end":11434.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11434.71659375,"end":11438.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11438.47971875,"end":11442.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11442.664718750002,"end":11451.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11452.75596875,"end":11455.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11456.18159375,"end":11473.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11473.562843750002,"end":11493.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11494.26846875,"end":11499.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11500.039718750002,"end":11501.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11501.32221875,"end":11510.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11511.480968750002,"end":11512.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11513.067218750002,"end":11515.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11515.547843750002,"end":11516.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11518.129718750002,"end":11522.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11522.652218750001,"end":11523.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11524.457843750002,"end":11526.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11526.80346875,"end":11530.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11530.667843750001,"end":11531.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11531.882843750001,"end":11537.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11537.957843750002,"end":11543.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11544.35346875,"end":11557.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11557.296593750001,"end":11557.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11558.157218750002,"end":11558.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11558.17409375,"end":11558.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11558.39346875,"end":11558.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11558.44409375,"end":11559.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11559.827843750001,"end":11570.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11571.269093750001,"end":11584.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11574.99846875,"end":11575.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11575.015343750001,"end":11575.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11583.773468750001,"end":11590.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11591.56971875,"end":11604.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11598.99471875,"end":11600.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11604.64784375,"end":11604.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11604.664718750002,"end":11604.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11605.609718750002,"end":11609.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11609.052218750003,"end":11615.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11610.250343750002,"end":11612.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11613.878468750001,"end":11615.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11615.92034375,"end":11623.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11623.649093750002,"end":11635.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11636.879093750002,"end":11654.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11662.54596875,"end":11664.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11664.97596875,"end":11665.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11671.489718750003,"end":11693.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11672.957843750002,"end":11673.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11693.039093750001,"end":11693.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11693.950343750003,"end":11770.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11767.879718750002,"end":11768.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11770.54596875,"end":11782.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11774.37659375,"end":11774.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11781.008468750002,"end":11809.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11809.324718750002,"end":11812.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11811.83909375,"end":11900.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11900.331593750001,"end":11919.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11919.805343750002,"end":11920.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11920.902218750001,"end":11921.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11922.387218750002,"end":11923.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11924.05784375,"end":11925.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11925.67784375,"end":11964.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11965.08096875,"end":11968.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11968.911593750003,"end":11980.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11981.449718750002,"end":11983.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11983.677218750003,"end":11988.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11989.07721875,"end":11990.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11991.895343750002,"end":11993.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11994.93284375,"end":12006.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12006.914093750001,"end":12016.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12008.871593750002,"end":12012.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12013.44471875,"end":12014.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12014.38971875,"end":12015.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12016.414718750002,"end":12028.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12028.36221875,"end":12051.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12030.20159375,"end":12030.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12043.296593750001,"end":12043.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12044.86596875,"end":12044.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12048.12284375,"end":12050.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12051.734093750001,"end":12064.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12064.829093750002,"end":12075.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12075.105968750002,"end":12078.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12076.50659375,"end":12084.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12080.97846875,"end":12089.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12090.563468750002,"end":12095.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12090.664718750002,"end":12091.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12093.58409375,"end":12111.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12095.59221875,"end":12095.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12095.609093750001,"end":12095.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12095.74409375,"end":12095.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12097.414718750002,"end":12099.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12109.125968750002,"end":12111.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12112.602218750002,"end":12114.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12114.711593750002,"end":12119.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12131.265968750002,"end":12134.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12134.82659375,"end":12136.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12136.29471875,"end":12137.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12139.09596875,"end":12139.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12140.53034375,"end":12141.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12143.46659375,"end":12145.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12146.26784375,"end":12146.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12147.449093750001,"end":12148.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12149.575343750003,"end":12151.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12152.157218750002,"end":12154.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12154.33409375,"end":12155.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12155.44784375,"end":12155.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12156.07221875,"end":12157.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12158.637218750002,"end":12159.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12160.206593750001,"end":12162.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12163.31159375,"end":12167.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12168.25596875,"end":12173.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12173.925968750002,"end":12174.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12174.90471875,"end":12175.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12177.55409375,"end":12178.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12179.612843750001,"end":12180.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12181.047218750002,"end":12184.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12184.641593750002,"end":12186.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12187.864718750003,"end":12189.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12189.61971875,"end":12193.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12194.496593750002,"end":12195.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12195.660968750002,"end":12196.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12197.567843750003,"end":12202.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12202.934093750002,"end":12203.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12204.942218750002,"end":12206.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12207.000968750002,"end":12210.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12211.118468750003,"end":12213.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12214.35846875,"end":12215.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12217.497218750003,"end":12222.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12222.35721875,"end":12225.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12225.85034375,"end":12227.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12228.837218750003,"end":12231.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12232.414718750002,"end":12233.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12234.372218750003,"end":12244.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12244.547843750002,"end":12245.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12246.30284375,"end":12246.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12246.927218750003,"end":12249.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12249.239093750002,"end":12250.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12250.96034375,"end":12257.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12256.49534375,"end":12262.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12263.34659375,"end":12264.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12264.91596875,"end":12265.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12266.063468750002,"end":12267.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12267.801593750002,"end":12270.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12271.024718750003,"end":12271.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12272.56034375,"end":12273.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12274.14659375,"end":12277.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12277.74096875,"end":12282.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12282.85409375,"end":12283.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12284.828468750002,"end":12288.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12289.418468750002,"end":12297.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12297.77159375,"end":12301.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12301.41659375,"end":12302.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12303.441593750002,"end":12304.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12304.859093750001,"end":12306.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12306.563468750002,"end":12309.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12310.259093750003,"end":12311.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12311.997218750003,"end":12316.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12315.33846875,"end":12317.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12317.363468750002,"end":12325.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12317.937218750001,"end":12322.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12325.71659375,"end":12331.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12331.656593750002,"end":12337.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12338.38971875,"end":12340.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12341.29221875,"end":12343.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12344.92034375,"end":12347.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12348.71721875,"end":12351.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12353.239718750003,"end":12356.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12356.90159375,"end":12359.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12360.242843750002,"end":12363.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12363.80346875,"end":12364.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12364.562843750002,"end":12366.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12368.309093750002,"end":12370.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12371.61659375,"end":12374.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12376.13909375,"end":12377.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12378.180968750003,"end":12380.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12381.89346875,"end":12383.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12384.77909375,"end":12387.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12388.99784375,"end":12390.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12392.204093750002,"end":12393.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12393.97596875,"end":12395.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12395.76471875,"end":12398.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12399.02159375,"end":12400.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12401.08034375,"end":12411.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12412.386593750001,"end":12415.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12417.31409375,"end":12420.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12421.262843750003,"end":12422.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12422.680343750002,"end":12424.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12425.042843750001,"end":12426.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12427.101593750001,"end":12428.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12429.86909375,"end":12431.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12431.438468750002,"end":12434.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12435.977843750003,"end":12437.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12438.964718750001,"end":12440.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12440.719718750002,"end":12442.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12443.90909375,"end":12444.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12445.613468750002,"end":12446.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12447.570968750002,"end":12449.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12451.097843750002,"end":12454.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12456.19409375,"end":12457.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12458.860343750002,"end":12461.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12461.695343750001,"end":12463.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12465.79596875,"end":12467.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12468.47909375,"end":12469.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12470.875343750002,"end":12471.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12471.027218750001,"end":12471.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12471.80346875,"end":12472.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12473.33909375,"end":12474.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12474.621593750002,"end":12512.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12502.43159375,"end":12504.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12505.03034375,"end":12505.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12513.737843750001,"end":12522.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12517.61909375,"end":12521.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12521.88846875,"end":12527.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12528.368468750003,"end":12530.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12532.199093750001,"end":12533.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12533.44784375,"end":12533.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12534.51096875,"end":12535.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12536.50221875,"end":12536.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12537.210968750001,"end":12538.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12538.965968750003,"end":12540.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12541.902218750001,"end":12543.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12544.551593750002,"end":12545.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12547.015343750001,"end":12549.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12550.59284375,"end":12551.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12552.31409375,"end":12554.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12555.75659375,"end":12561.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12562.894718750002,"end":12578.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12573.914093750001,"end":12586.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12578.63909375,"end":12579.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12587.59971875,"end":12592.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12593.286593750003,"end":12594.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12595.19346875,"end":12595.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12595.21034375,"end":12595.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12595.497218750003,"end":12598.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12599.243468750003,"end":12642.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12643.01721875,"end":12643.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12645.312218750001,"end":12646.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12646.628468750001,"end":12648.82221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1962.523,"end":1971.624,"text":"報告委員會出席委員9人與組法定人數現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議事錄"},{"start":1973.717,"end":1994.14,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議．事錄時間中華民國113年6月26日星期三上午9時至12時33分地點紅樓森林一會議室出席委員盧美琳等11人列席委員黃國昌等16人列席人員國防部部長顧立雄及所屬人員"},{"start":1996.001,"end":2011.588,"text":"參謀總長梅佳樹國家安全局副局長黃明周﹐法務部法制司調部辦事檢察官謝佑雲﹐主席馬周吉委員文君報告事項一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定二﹐邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告漢光日10號演習規劃情形並備質詢﹐討論事項審查依本運委員馬文君等21人"},{"start":2020.431,"end":2037.587,"text":"國軍老舊眷村改建條例第3條、第5條及第5條之一條維修正常案案本院委員黃仁等24人本院委員王洪威等25人本院委員戴世保等21人本院委員羅志強等24人分別擬具國軍老舊眷村改建條例第3條條維修正常案案"},{"start":2045.1,"end":2061.797,"text":"以上6案今提本院第11屆第1會期第3、5、7、10及11次會議報告後均決定交外交及國防委員會審查委員賴世保說明提案子去國防部部長顧立雄參謀總長梅家樹及政治作戰局局長陳玉玲報告"},{"start":2063.519,"end":2086.87,"text":"委員盧美琳等16人質詢．均由國防部部長顧立雄參謀總長梅家樹﹑法律事務司司長沈世偉﹑情報參謀次長是次長顏友賢﹑空軍司令部參謀長曹建平﹑國家中生科學研究院院長張忠誠及國家安全局副局長黃明昭等即席答覆。決議依登記質詢在場委員均應發言完畢報告及詢討結束。"},{"start":2088.837,"end":2101.43,"text":"二委員口頭質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊,請相關機關與二周內已書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會。委員令指定期限者從其所定身,有關討論事項等六案令則舉,繼續審查。"},{"start":2109.651,"end":2124.203,"text":"我們稍後確認,請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項,邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告．如何運用國際友我組織力量．協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法．並備質詢。宣讀完畢我們現在請問在場委員．對於上次會議議事錄．有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處我們的議事錄確定"},{"start":2141.089,"end":2163.435,"text":"我們現在介紹在場委員首先介紹陳永康陳委員羅美玲羅委員以及我們今天出列席的官員外交部部長林佳龍林部長亞東太平洋司藍夏里藍司長亞西及非洲司賀忠義賀司長"},{"start":2170.933,"end":2200.253,"text":"歐洲司黃君耀黃司長．北美司王良玉王司長．拉美及加勒比海司鄭麗成鄭司長．條約法律司蘇瑞仁參事．國際組織司孫簡元司長．國際合作及經濟事務司聯育平司長．國際傳播司徐永梅司長．"},{"start":2202.947,"end":2215.037,"text":"研究設計會張雅光主任秘書處洪振榮處長人事處黃麗玲處長主計處李佩華處長資訊及電務處林啟文處長公眾外交協調會蕭光偉副執行長非政府組織國際事務會陳剛毅執行長"},{"start":2233.024,"end":2235.205,"text":"臨時事務局何振環局長臺灣日本關係協會范振國秘書長財團法人國際合作發展基金會李朝成秘書長財團法人臺灣民主基金會代理執行長廖達祺廖執行長"},{"start":2259.858,"end":2269.089,"text":"本日會議邀請外交部林佳龍部長報告．如何運用國際友我組織力量．協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法．並備質詢。．現在請林部長上臺報告"},{"start":2284.161,"end":2304.47,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生大家早安很榮幸承蒙貴委員會邀請就如何運用國際友我組織力量協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法進行報告詳細內容請參考書面的報告以下請扼要的口頭報告"},{"start":2306.995,"end":2324.996,"text":"首先我國推動參加聯合國體系所需考慮的因素以及我們目前的訴求希望能夠爭取擴大國際參與是我們國人共同的期待也是跨黨派的共識因此外交部列為重點工作之一"},{"start":2325.797,"end":2353.464,"text":"除依據國家整體發展與人民福祉所需獲得國際支持的可能性以及我政府推案能量慎選推案目標之外也和友邦及理念相近國家密切協調來研定最妥適的推案策略及做法政府充分了解民意對我國加入聯合國體系的高度期盼但考量上述各項因素"},{"start":2354.765,"end":2363.85,"text":"自從2016年開始就秉持著專業務實有貢獻的原則積極爭取有意義參與聯合國體系相關的國際組織近年來我推案所獲的國際支持有大幅提升"},{"start":2374.318,"end":2397.052,"text":"經過過去8年的積極推動臺灣在爭取國際參與方面獲得一些具體的成果包括成功加入13個專業性國際組織及機制在世界衛生大會WHA為我直言的理念相近國家數目也逐年的增加另外除了向七大工業國集團G7外長及衛生"},{"start":2401.763,"end":2428.108,"text":"這個部長的會議之外今年的領袖峰會也在會後聯合公報中首度明確表達對台灣有意義參與國際組織的支持這些正面發展都證明政府的推案訴求和策略正確那麼當然我國也面臨了無法參與聯合國體系的一些重大的障礙"},{"start":2429.632,"end":2431.074,"text":"那當然首先中國透過錯誤詮釋聯大第2758號決議"},{"start":2436.829,"end":2459.761,"text":"並稱該決議等同其一中原則意圖謀殺台灣參與聯合國體系等國際組織的正當性是台灣迄今無法參與的最主要障礙此外中國以各種方式在聯合國體系內發揮不當的影響力而聯合國秘書處違反聯合國憲章第100條屈服及附和中國的謬論"},{"start":2461.162,"end":2490.183,"text":"貶抑我國主權國家的地位甚至拒絕我國人持我國護照換證進入聯合國參訪或開會也不同意核發採訪證給予我國的記者另外中國也濫權施壓其他的國際組織使該等組織即使同情我國的處境並認同我國的訴求也無法以具體的方式來協助我們然而在我政府及民間共同積極的努力之下仍有"},{"start":2491.556,"end":2495.703,"text":"世界醫師會、西班牙醫師會、無國界記者組織、國際記者聯盟及亞太國會議員聯合會等國際組織為我發出正義之聲"},{"start":2504.571,"end":2525.784,"text":"那未來的推動做法我國目前以會員或其他身份參與了74個政府間國際組織相關政府部門透過專業參與以向國際社會展現台灣的專業能量以及我國系國際社會良善力量的事實並累積相當友好的"},{"start":2526.664,"end":2540.24,"text":"有我的人脈跟國際認同與支持政府將在多年建構的良好基礎之下持續努力繼續擴大國際友我力量處請以更積極的具體方式助我針對中國惡意錯誤詮釋聯大第2758號決議美國已公開發表4點反駁立場"},{"start":2546.787,"end":2558.472,"text":"而我政府將與美國及其他理念相近國家更緊密地協調合作來導正國際視聽反制中共荒謬無理的論點以強化台灣爭取參與聯合國體系等國際組織的正當性"},{"start":2562.293,"end":2590.862,"text":"最後政府深切的瞭解國內民意對政府推動國際參與的殷切期盼而面對中國的蠻橫阻撓我們必須省慎衡量國際情勢嚴定妥適的推案策略經過多年的努力已經獲至相當的進展政府對各種可能選項均抱持開放態度將適時檢視調整以妥善維護國家利益及人民福祉也希望各位委員能夠繼續給予"},{"start":2592.162,"end":2593.702,"text":"支持及鼓勵。謝謝現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":2624.611,"end":2624.913,"text":"林佳龍報告"},{"start":2636.574,"end":2640.095,"text":"國際刑警組織在6月25號經由執行委員會的投票選出了巴西的候選人伍吉莎成為新一任的秘書長而且伍吉莎是以壓倒性的票數完勝英國跟上比亞的候選人"},{"start":2658.762,"end":2685.734,"text":"這也是該組織有史以來第一位來自開發中國家的秘書長那武吉山他會在今年的11月就會正式上任然後現任的秘書長也是來自德國的Stone他即將結束10年的這個任期其實台灣這麼多年以來一直都在積極地爭取觀察員的這個身份可是在2022年的時候現任的秘書長Stone他就說"},{"start":2687.315,"end":2708.145,"text":"他表示國際情景組織只承認中華人民共和國是中國唯一的代表他還說臺灣是中國的一部分所以沒有辦法給予臺灣觀察員的身份那時候我們外交部又表達了遺憾跟不滿我們新任的秘書長即將上任了來自巴西的秘書長他在11月即將上任臺灣迅速還會繼續爭取我們觀察員的身份"},{"start":2717.17,"end":2740.418,"text":"部長您認為我們有機會嗎?其實最近國際情勢的發展大家也在檢討2758號決議它的內容那美國也很明確的表達包括其實2758號決議並沒有去背書或等同或者是反映這一個所謂的一中原則"},{"start":2742.768,"end":2750.097,"text":"而這個世界各國跟臺灣進行這個交往其實也是"},{"start":2752.455,"end":2774.857,"text":"就是它的一個主權再來對台灣的參與國際組織這個也沒有因為這個決議而有所限制所以這些都像是我想中共在法律法律戰然後需要落實到聯合國跟周邊的組織這件事情也引起了一些反應所以這個也是我們的一個機會之窗"},{"start":2775.618,"end":2804.331,"text":"所以有威脅也有機會 那我們就要更努力來從理念相近的國家一起來推動所以我們還是會積極爭取這個interpol的這個觀察員的這個身份嘛可是呢就像這些聲明大家都理解可是似乎中國也不會理會這些聲明嘛對不對而且像國際刑警組織裡面他的這個執行委員會的這個重要成員之一就是包含了這個中國所以您覺得我們真的有機會加入嗎"},{"start":2805.452,"end":2808.458,"text":"我一定是使盡所有的辦法來干擾嘛"},{"start":2810.032,"end":2839.39,"text":"當然要累積能量其實不斷地去推動尤其是我們公共訊息的溝通更多人了解的時候就發現說原來中共所扭曲的2758決議並沒有涉及所謂一中原則也沒有排除台灣的國際組織的參與也沒有限制他們跟台灣建立外交關係所以這個都需要去宣傳這個也是當前在做的"},{"start":2839.75,"end":2849.809,"text":"至於說不斷的去這個我們透過各種方式去參與這個有意義的參與的方式也非常多種這個也是我們要努力的地方"},{"start":2850.609,"end":2868.927,"text":"OK 好 謝謝外交部還是要積極來努力加入這些國際組織那目前國際刑警組織它有196國那包含了一些極權國家而且在資軍委員會裡面其實也有含了一些極權國家在裡面所以我們可能還有很長的路要走本席是這麼認為"},{"start":2870.148,"end":2886.985,"text":"那過去呢其實國際刑警組織有一些讓國際人權組織覺得有非議的地方就是有一些極權國家比如說中國、俄羅斯他們是透過這個國際刑警組織的紅色通緝令呢來棄拿這個"},{"start":2889.648,"end":2905.639,"text":"所以我們不曉得新任的秘書長能不能就是保持中立像過去雖然說德國的這個Stopp他是拒絕了台灣的這個申請像光產源身份他覺得他只承認One China Policy"},{"start":2906.139,"end":2908.763,"text":"OK可是問題是在他主政的10年當中他認為說這些紅色追緝令必須還是要經過審查可是我們不曉得新任的秘書長他會怎麼來處理這件事情因為像過去的話像中國"},{"start":2921.378,"end":2941.545,"text":"中國曾經透過紅色通緝令向世界維吾爾大會主席多里昆·艾莎被中國視為恐怖分子向世界刑警組織申請拘捕令甚至維權人士艾伊也曾經在摩納哥被拘留"},{"start":2946.667,"end":2951.792,"text":"到後來被遣返回中國本席會講這點是因為在6月21號的時候中國頒布了懲治台獨的規定公佈了懲治台獨分裂國家、煽動分裂國家等22條規定若違反分裂國家犯罪最終可以處死刑最速期是20年"},{"start":2973.851,"end":3000.849,"text":"他認為的這些分裂國家犯罪就是他所稱的臺獨頑固分子那臺灣有很多的政治人物比如說我們的前行政院長蘇貞昌也被點名吳釗燮我們的前部長也被點名甚至有一些媒體人也被點名我們所擔心的就是說這些他現在認為說這些所謂的他名單當中的臺獨頑固分子他們其實就是觸犯了分裂國家犯罪那如果這些"},{"start":3001.69,"end":3001.83,"text":"確實要很"},{"start":3025.422,"end":3051.52,"text":"聖宗的來去因應所謂的是不是中國可能透過所謂紅色通報透過國際情形組織來行行跨境的鎮壓這一點當然我們也有這個訓練外管我們怎麼樣去做預防跟因應但是因為紅色通報也不是逮捕令它主要還是要涉及到"},{"start":3052.881,"end":3078.058,"text":"當地國本國的法律這就涉及到所謂的司法互助跟淺送相關的規定條約這個部分因為有一些國家跟中共有簽有建交的公報或者條約裡面有涉及一中原則"},{"start":3078.618,"end":3100.452,"text":"那這會不會去掛鉤但是呢當然怎麼樣去跟當地國做溝通那以及我們提醒國人要注意外管要協助針對這些事情有非常多的樣態比如您剛剛提到的像有關於新疆維吾爾族有一些人權人士被中國他們"},{"start":3102.489,"end":3108.034,"text":"因為過去曾經是有過被濫用、劣跡斑斑的事情發生,那台灣不得不注意,剛剛部長你所講的,我們必須要預防,我們必須要跟國人來告知這個危險性,可是我到目前為止外交部好像比你們還沒有做這些動作對不對?"},{"start":3129.051,"end":3157.965,"text":"像我們就政府就發布陳設警戒對於這個旅遊那同樣有一些國家我們也做過統計那這些國家我們已經會就是訓練外管特別要注意就是有涉及到他們建交簽訂有一中原則又加上這個司法互助跟所謂的這個遣送相關的這個條約這個就是第一級我們特別要注意的"},{"start":3158.285,"end":3158.365,"text":"我們會加強"},{"start":3192.032,"end":3217.129,"text":"謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢主席好 有請外交部部長請部長部長好"},{"start":3224.128,"end":3253.303,"text":"部長您好委員長聽取您的早上的重點報告以及我先前看過您的這個分析事項有關於如何運用友我的國際組織協助我們參加國際更多的活動甚至有些國際聯合國的外圍組織希望能夠加入成為觀察員這個我們在方法上在議論的著眼上我們是完全支持部裡面當我也用一些不同的角度來做分析提出一些建言"},{"start":3256.327,"end":3272.435,"text":"我們的現況是由政府籌設籌劃與資助．或者半方組織民間團體共同努力．但是因為做法不同調．成果的累積有些不容易．我們現在提出了一個國家安全戰略為基礎．積極來指導參與國際組織的方法論．是以國際的聲援為本．它的實質支持為實．"},{"start":3279.338,"end":3307.779,"text":"因為要有國家安全戰略所以我們的資源分配才適宜協商順暢施政同步法治周全策略疫情政策可以連續性我們的重點是宣揚臺灣的公益意願精準發揮臺灣的優勢能力我們政府要凝聚共識與資源的相助融合社會與民間來共同的努力現在看到您的那幾篇報告裡面有一個狀況一狀況二我們提出的建言"},{"start":3309.766,"end":3332.801,"text":"強調建議二就是現在臺大已經宣布創立NGO的人才學校我們建議這個外交部或者是外交人員這個研究的這個學院跟臺大才合作我們可以採取多點的培養NGO的人才而不是光僅設限於我們自己部內人才我們希望能夠幫外力部外交部建立一個強大的團隊"},{"start":3335.437,"end":3358.206,"text":"如何運用國際友人．有我的組織力量．協助加入聯合國相關組織現在一個最重要的是今年11月的COP29聯合國氣候變遷大會聚焦在2025年的全球氣候融資的目標我們根據美國海洋大氣從屬NOAA的資料"},{"start":3359.867,"end":3379.092,"text":"如果現在失去控制在2100本世紀前海平面會上升3.5到7英尺也就是平均是兩公尺甚至更深這個時候影響到不只是美國的邁阿密New Orleans東京大阪甚至倫敦香港"},{"start":3380.374,"end":3407.774,"text":"臺北、高雄的問題非常嚴肅但是在氣候變遷的控制上美國跟中國大陸在這個上面採取合作的態度我們雖然不是聯合國的成員但是在抗暖化、氣候融資的目標議題上我們應該表達我們積極的態度跟合作的立場尤其是在南太平洋這些島國、貧窮國家因為海洋上升這些國家就被淹掉了"},{"start":3409.375,"end":3424.992,"text":"不只是與我們友好的富裕國家要融入一個共同融資合作的機會在控制零排放的同時也照顧到南太平洋的友邦國家"},{"start":3426.223,"end":3452.231,"text":"那現在產生的一個面對的挑戰這是美國的內政問題但是會影響到我們就是川普他強調石化燃料在美國內政政策的重要性他認為減低美國能源對外依賴是重要的所以川普的能源革命跟拜登的2050年的近鄰談放這兩個是完全相反的所以在11月5號的結果出來我們必須面對如何"},{"start":3454.197,"end":3480.049,"text":"針對下一個美國總統在這個國際這個怎麼講氣候變遷組織有不同的想法上我們要有一個調節的空間論述的方法論那這張圖像各位看這是前天我在美國NOAA的圖上就是6月25號的海平面上的氣溫都已經到了25到30度那這個結果如果預測"},{"start":3481.792,"end":3483.693,"text":"新北市 台北港 淡水河"},{"start":3502.233,"end":3529.736,"text":"可以看到在新北市的蘆洲甚至我們的淡水河進去的我們的科學園區通通都被水淹了這個不只是我們面對的挑戰事實上對國外的國家友我好的國家我們可以形成一個共同的論述另外有關國際組織剛才在您的報告裡面您提到了我們希望有人的合作協助參加IKEA我建議再增加兩個重點"},{"start":3531.496,"end":3552.965,"text":"一個除了ICAO以外還有IMO國際海事組織那麼另外一個就是IHO這兩個都是有關海上海運的因為中共最近在台海周遭實施灰色地帶的這種演習這個不動武的威懾消耗戰"},{"start":3554.045,"end":3576.998,"text":"如果我們的民航組織發現它干擾了民航機的航線或是干擾了海上民航航運的航線這個都可以透過我們的友好友我的組織向這幾個單位表達我們的關切以希望喚起這個國際組織對維護台海周遭以及國際和平的一個重視以上報告"},{"start":3579.036,"end":3585.657,"text":"非常謝謝委員寶貴的意見,我們會把它特別納入,特別是IMO相關的國際組織,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝陳委員。接下來請黃仁委員上台諮詢。謝謝主席,有請部長。請部長。"},{"start":3616.277,"end":3632.648,"text":"我們就叫我們賴清德總統的新兩國論在賴總統就此演說就提到中華民國與中華人民共和國是負不隸屬"},{"start":3634.309,"end":3654.467,"text":"那並對入境官校百年孝慶時再次的重申堅持中華民國和中華人民共和國這個互不隸屬請問一下部長你認同我們賴總統的說法嗎認同好所以部長同意這些兩國論那我們今天就談到"},{"start":3656.755,"end":3683.293,"text":"賴總統的論述是在偷換概念為什麼?刻意把自前和主前混淆自前和主前混淆讓台獨可以借中華民國的殼上市借殼上市所以本席同意兩岸當然是互不隸屬但是在此自前方向"},{"start":3685.194,"end":3714.454,"text":"本席在特別強調在法理上依據中華民國憲法中華民國才有主權的代表性所謂中華人民共和國是不具有主權的所以外交部代表中華民國處理對外事務因此本席相信我們的所有外交人員都很清楚在外交代表就是中華民國主權那這個法理上是很明顯的賴政府在國會改革法案"},{"start":3715.194,"end":3731.821,"text":"口口聲聲說要依據憲法但在國家主權上反而一點都不尊重中華民國的憲法根本是把憲法當玩物部長你認同我的想法還是你還有別的見解"},{"start":3735.233,"end":3759.756,"text":"因為主權跟治權這種劃分是我們比較台灣教科書上這樣寫事實上主權在民這個是民主最重要的一個精神所以台灣人民選出我們的政府包括總統跟國會怎麼樣來確保我們國民主權這個就是最根本"},{"start":3760.458,"end":3786.912,"text":"那至於說涉及到的所謂互不隸屬是不是因為主權自權的差異有這些理論有點複雜那我覺得回到還是最根本的所以今天部長今天我講兩國論的思維裡面我們就按照我們賴總統在把自權和主權的混淆也沒關係本席在按照賴總統的思路請問部長既然是兩國"},{"start":3788.713,"end":3813.471,"text":"部長是不是應該建議賴總統把大陸委員會裁掉並將陸委會併入到外交部設立外交部中國時我想外交部就代表我們國家主權因為兩岸關係很特殊所以我們有設立這個大陸事務委員會來處理因為最主要是我們是"},{"start":3814.844,"end":3829.495,"text":"某種程度是承認他啦因為在台灣民主化之後啊其實我們對我講這個好不好但是他沒有承認我們今天我們要分析一下這個很簡單外交部是主要負責的是什麼國與國的之間的對外事務"},{"start":3830.135,"end":3847.954,"text":"入委會負責的是中華民國臺灣地區與大陸地區的內部事務既然部長認同賴總統的兩國論那就應該有所作為把大陸委員會併入到你們外交部的中國司有沒有必要"},{"start":3848.534,"end":3874.371,"text":"因為這涉及現改可能要朝野來協調然後溝通甚至對話應該朝野協調啦我們今天我提出這個案子這涉及到現改層次就是應該現在來講我們應該要朝這個方向來討論要不然的話今天兩國之間的僵硬到現在沒有一個談判的空間所以你說大陸"},{"start":3875.231,"end":3890.583,"text":"事務委員會有沒有必要性要避入到你們外交部因為外交部是你們負責國與國之間的關係嘛對不對那所以這個是這個給你一個方向思維不過我跟委員講因為我們承認他他不承認我們啊你這樣"},{"start":3891.684,"end":3914.765,"text":"他如果願意跟外交部交往我也是很願意啊可是他不願意跟我交往啊我們永遠承認兩岸之間的關係但是是台灣不承認對岸之間的關係我們只有承認美國跟日本的關係而已嘛所以這個就是一個思維的因素我們本地同根深我們跟對岸之間本來就有這一層的關係為什麼一直不承認所以這個就是我要講"},{"start":3915.586,"end":3930.315,"text":"要講出的論述因為這個論述裡面我是以台灣原住民的身份來去看待兩岸之間不是要用你們的角度裡面去看待兩岸之間所以這個就是我要告訴給部長的好不好所以這個我另外插個話"},{"start":3932.165,"end":3954.962,"text":"我上次有特別提到就是你第一次執行背景的時候我特別提到原住民在南島語系的民主裡面我希望未來推派無認所原住民的代表還是有認所的原住民代表希望沒有任何的政黨而且有學術理論而且是正當性的"},{"start":3955.862,"end":3979.142,"text":"對外交未來對原住民事務有推動有幫助與國家邦交的前提沒有任何的政黨為代表性可不可以可以我一定來尋才也請委員可以推薦我們一起來找出最能夠讓原住民外交發揮因為台灣確實有這樣的條件可以做包括海島或南島語系"},{"start":3988.225,"end":4001.129,"text":"這一點我絕對相信你有這個能力一直以來到現在你從外交部從新聞局到市長到現在總統府的秘書長我絕對相信你在整個"},{"start":4001.989,"end":4020.894,"text":"不分族群的情況之下找出一個能人找出一個人才為國家來奉獻而不是以政黨的角度來看待派任今天不要說你們的內閣是一個外星人內閣連圓明會主委到現在一問三不知"},{"start":4022.674,"end":4023.274,"text":"一大雷遭到爆料"},{"start":4042.563,"end":4070.735,"text":"報料挪用公款這樣的一個國際事件也造成我們外交部的形象已經有所衝突而且如何提振外交部的形象今天雷大雷大使所陳述的問題他是不是要自我援說你們要找出一個原因如果我們誣賴他還他清白如果是他挪用公款你們絕對跟國人有交代"},{"start":4071.255,"end":4088.721,"text":"因為這是你們外交部的形象要樹立起來不要讓我們外交部說我們是派出的所有浪費公帑部長你回答目前是沒有挪用公款但是因為採購的程序有些項目有核可有些沒有"},{"start":4089.361,"end":4089.721,"text":"馬文君委員質詢"},{"start":4120.567,"end":4121.812,"text":"主席 麻煩請部長有請部長"},{"start":4134.807,"end":4151.42,"text":"部長早部長我想請教一下今天因為我們幾個議題那我想首先請教民主基金會在您看來重不重要然後他在他成立以後他的成效如何"},{"start":4152.523,"end":4175.908,"text":"民主基金會很重要自成立以來發揮很好的惡鬼外交的效果而且跨黨派的參與跟國際的這個交流合作成果豐碩特別我們代理執行長我才聽了他完整的簡報我覺得立法院支持的預算能夠發揮這麼大的效果非常的感謝我們要繼續努力那有一些民主基金會的業務我待會請執行長"},{"start":4177.508,"end":4202.363,"text":"業務我們很清楚我現在只想知道的是民主基金會因為每年在編預算的時候大概就會做一些初步的報告那我們現在比較希望知道既然部長覺得他很重要然後也做得很好然後他的在業務上的推動其實是要持續的那我想請教一下在我們基金會董事會推舉執行長的議程當中部長提議"},{"start":4207.606,"end":4230.368,"text":"執行長的任用、聘用他被擱置的原因是什麼?因為在第8屆第一次董事會產生了董事長跟副董事長之間董事長他請假因為主持立法院的會議由我代理那因為他推薦的人他也沒有在場"},{"start":4231.429,"end":4245.226,"text":"大家的董事們很想了解董事長提名的人所以我就經過大家討論也經過了表決就是擱置由下次會來決定"},{"start":4247.984,"end":4252.969,"text":"很多人在說卡爐卡爐用我獨是誰,他們都想著另外的人部長,行政院在提,或者包括總統提名很多人選讓立法院要去投票的時候他們也是一樣,我們都會從很多的資料上面,尤其不可能我們的"},{"start":4269.784,"end":4294.39,"text":"成員這些董監事沒有去看過他的背景資料如果不知道的話在這裡我簡單再說一下因為之前黃玉琳執行長就如果你們對於之前執行的業務狀況非常肯定的話他是一個土木工程的背景過去也曾經在台中市政府交通部服務過可是他在基金會的時候也是受到肯定的"},{"start":4296.846,"end":4303.889,"text":"那現在盧業忠本身如果他做的是他本身就是國際關係的專業又是外交各方面這一方面的一個專業那他來擔任這樣的職務有什麼樣的問題嗎因為如果"},{"start":4314.894,"end":4318.795,"text":"這空窗期讓我們覺得他是變成政黨的惡鬥這樣是很不好的因為如果要預算可以通過從過去到現在成立經過了國民黨經過了民進黨執政其實都沒有人去干涉過多都希望他的惡鬼外交其實是可以順利的推動如果讓我們有這樣的感受我們希望可以重新來檢視很多的預算的運用比如說"},{"start":4344.039,"end":4355.044,"text":"過去馬政府時期我們的外交預算當時有22個國家我們的預算224億27億這個沒有包括機密預算可是當時的機密預算並不高都是5億左右到蔡政府2024年我們的預算高達314億這個還不包含機密外交的預算"},{"start":4372.608,"end":4394.748,"text":"我們只剩下12個國家可我們的預算越編越高然後一直跟國人說我們做得非常好可我們邦交國失去了我們WHA連觀察員的身份過去有8年都可以參與現在都沒有辦法那我們所有的國際組織沒有一個可以參加的像今天的報告裡面"},{"start":4395.729,"end":4401.371,"text":"其實也差不多是投降了啦就是我們要用更務實的方式你說有人幫我們講話過去我們還實質參加我們編的預算還更少為什麼我特別提到預算的部分是因為我們也很清楚的知道我們的外交工作並不是那麼容易所以在經費預算上面其實大概也都是盡量的給予支持"},{"start":4420.618,"end":4421.819,"text":"是,實質的對人選每個人都見仁見智,優秀的人才阿魯"},{"start":4439.751,"end":4442.413,"text":"過去董事長有沒有都親自去介紹去說明去講比如說黃玉玲被提名的時候我們的董事長有沒有去那裡說明"},{"start":4462.421,"end":4467.744,"text":"因為那個時候 董事長應該提名應該都會跟董事會說明他是虎目工程的背景是董事長親自去說明嗎?去介紹嗎?董事長是嗎?我的判斷是啦因為其實黃毅林執行長當過海基會主任秘書"},{"start":4481.63,"end":4485.734,"text":"行政經驗豐富不代表他的外交經驗豐富今天如果有一個背景不錯沒有什麼特別瑕疵的人如果讓我們的感受你就是卡這樣子對我們未來在外交業務上面"},{"start":4500.589,"end":4504.412,"text":"沒有很好的一個幫助我今天特別再提出來老實說我們也是希望你在外交工作如果你沒有辦法交出好成績沒有辦法做得很好還拼命的花人民的納稅錢還要在這裡搞東搞西那我們未來希望可以用更嚴格的來檢視我們的外交工作包括你現在這麼重要的一個駐美的一個代表都發生這樣的問題我們不知道他的實際情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":4530.669,"end":4549.258,"text":"可是我們現在發現兩個點第一他是一個資深的外交官他也當過政務次長沒有理由他不知道這些細節可是兩個理由第一個就是有人要搶位子這個就做得很難看第二個就是他過去的漏歸持續沿用因為覺得沒有什麼"},{"start":4555.185,"end":4575.952,"text":"可是最要讓我們覺得應該要檢視的是我們的外交部的發言人他是用恐嚇的方式說我們應該在內部來做舉發就好就是因為內部關關相護啊所以他才會爆出來這是兩種不同的模式一個是陰謀論第二個"},{"start":4577.592,"end":4595.923,"text":"就是吹哨者可是我們對於吹哨者是用這樣的態度所以外交部不斷的發生事情如果我們要用政治的態度來看待我們所有的外交的業務包括像這樣的一個基金會我們未來會更慎重的會更嚴謹的來檢視不可以讓你們一直浪費我們的民脂民膏包括我們說"},{"start":4603.627,"end":4631.349,"text":"希望很多國家來幫我們講話我們送出了什麼我們的護國神山台積電他很重要的很多的設廠其實政府在後面發揮了很大的影響力這些債債都顯示我們一直在犧牲我們的利益在浪費我們的金錢可是我們沒有得到實質的一些幫助像巴基斯坦"},{"start":4633.046,"end":4658.931,"text":"他們這一次要加入聯合國的時候他們的情況巴勒斯坦不好意思巴勒斯坦這一次今年4月份要加入聯合國的時候在聯合國安理會他超過9票有12票的同意的情況之下仍然不能成案很重要的因素就是美國投下了反對票那我想請教我們目前中華民國是不是也面臨這樣的問題"},{"start":4662.947,"end":4666.63,"text":"委員長,我現在說的是巴勒斯坦也受到美國的反對,今天為什麼美國反對?"},{"start":4684.084,"end":4689.788,"text":"這裏面所有大部分的安理會的成員國或者包括聯合國大會有143個國家其實是同意的而且是非常支持巴勒斯坦可是他們還是遭到否決今天我們中華民國會面臨我們一直在講中共阻撓中共阻撓所有任何國家都有他自身的考量所以我們應該要怎麼樣"},{"start":4707.159,"end":4733.569,"text":"以致的對外在外交的拓展上面大家可以共同的去發揮我們的影響力而不是對內這是我今天特別要講的這個部長你有什麼看法因為接下來我們還有很多在外交的推動或業務上面都會持續朝野要合作那我很期待知道部長到底怎麼想的那剛剛我說的民主基金會怎麼樣去解決這樣的問題因為他如果執行長"},{"start":4735.99,"end":4758.306,"text":"一產生他就可以馬上執行這兩個部分部長簡單的回答好不好其實那天第8屆第一次會就有推舉韓院長做董事長所以外界先前有一些猜測其實並沒有去卡誰那至於說執行長因為要董事長提名是要董事會同意那董事會有同意權"},{"start":4759.427,"end":4774.008,"text":"這個我們也尊重董事會當天的決定這個還沒有進入實質啦我是覺得就是要去溝通嘛讓董事們能夠支持董事長提的人選就像說如果我們行政部門提了這個人選"},{"start":4775.249,"end":4789.402,"text":"來立法院也是要經過立法院大家有一個程序你不能提的人也沒到被提的人也沒到董事會大家覺得說我想了解更多也許要更大的支持但是沒有辦法對話"},{"start":4791.284,"end":4792.946,"text":"部長會不會協助?因為之前你也推薦過執行長嘛,那就這個部分以你看到現在推薦的這樣一個人選"},{"start":4814.048,"end":4824.444,"text":"會不會認為他有什麼樣的瑕疵或者他不適任或者他有什麼問題我尊重董事會的決定我也希望那個程序能夠很順的來進行我請教的是部長的看法"},{"start":4825.447,"end":4849.152,"text":"您的看法對這一個人選你總是有看法吧其實專業在我們政治學界都有一定的肯定但是就是說他的外交政策的方向是不是跟賴總統方向一致這個也許董事會有一些包括委員也有在詢問如果是這樣那有很多的預算你根本就不能過"},{"start":4850.973,"end":4856.68,"text":"如果您要用這樣的看法因為現在在中華民國裡面我們是一個民主自由的國家您在這裡可以說台獨您在這裡也可以說創意如果叫我們的憲法來規定您現在憲法來規定到底是什麼這是大家都可以在這一塊土地上面"},{"start":4869.614,"end":4874.037,"text":"唱所欲言而不是誰可以影響人家應該怎麼想應該怎麼做你應該只可以講什麼樣的話如果這樣對我們的外交一點幫助都沒有我再次提醒如果這樣做對我們的外交一點幫助都沒有如果你從小地方要這樣卡那未來在我們很多"},{"start":4888.928,"end":4907.453,"text":"尤其是我們現在執政方執政黨如果在這樣子有很多一直都沒有能力去拓展我們的外交然後一直花錢在未來就會不好做了部長同意嗎我就把程序做好多溝通那人選我想提名有他的道理但是董事會有他的職權那這個董事會部長你會推薦嗎"},{"start":4913.48,"end":4914.821,"text":"謝謝馬委員下面我們請沈波洋委員來質詢"},{"start":4954.472,"end":4954.972,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":4968.737,"end":4986.816,"text":"委員長今天最主要是要問這個跟加入聯合國等等國際組織的一些問題那等一下也再問一下後面的一些相關的這個剛剛前面我以前關心的事項那一開始呢這個因為昨天剛好在審這個也是跟我們國防外交聯席的這個台印的MOU"},{"start":4988.238,"end":4999.031,"text":"因為昨天在討論這件事情的時候我覺得蠻重要的一點是在於說MOU第一個它到底是不是一個能夠送到立法院審查的這集要打一個問號因為畢竟MOU是個意向書那按照條約締結法它並不是一個協定那畢竟它"},{"start":5003.416,"end":5003.676,"text":"有,那是不是"},{"start":5033.171,"end":5058.16,"text":"那這個部分當然因為本來是這個就是要應該講說是查照變成備查嘛那當然尊重立法院的質詢那後來也是審查完成之後也是准以備查所以這個部分我們跟勞動部也都有溝通對因為我昨天發現在這個質詢的場合裡面蠻多人他們並沒有特別的因為我畢竟不是在不是每個人都跟國防外交有關"},{"start":5058.9,"end":5085.974,"text":"所以不是每個人都關心就是談硬之間的關係但我認為這個因為談硬之間之前有講到3S什麼student society還有science and technology所以這個是一個算是society相關的一個交流事項那這一次在他們的政府裡面我們談硬的關係也是不斷的在加溫所以我覺得這算是一個蠻重要的事項那希望以後外交部能夠也多多因為讓勞動部他們在回答的時候因為畢竟昨天都不是外交部回答都是勞動部在回答"},{"start":5086.394,"end":5102.072,"text":"他們能夠做一些勞動相關的社會影響力評估這沒問題但對於外交的那些評估有可能需要外交部的協助再來就是今天的主題關於聯合國相關的組織當然我們最近有爭取加入WHA還有這個"},{"start":5105.776,"end":5105.796,"text":"國際知識"},{"start":5121.327,"end":5140.414,"text":"還有歐洲他們不斷地用2758號來幫我們做解釋這個是因為我們在同盟關係之下也是外交部的一個努力那因為專報裡面有提到一點就是現在外交部也是要積極要去反制因為中國一直想要去把2758號解釋解釋成他們想要的樣貌那這個反制的措施現在具體來講有哪一些"},{"start":5142.645,"end":5169.124,"text":"當然除了美國就是他們跟做了法律的研究這個是我們怎麼樣去擴大宣傳這一次我想美國也包括跟第三方包括我們的邦交國配方也在展開所謂的public messaging campaign這樣的一個溝通我想這個不只是由上而下我想是全面性因為"},{"start":5171.986,"end":5196.464,"text":"這個2758的決議其實它被扭曲、誤用這件事情很多國家都不知道所以並沒有限制臺灣參加國際組織或是說其他國家跟我們建交這些都是開放因為它只處理了蔣介石政權的代表它甚至沒有去觸及到臺灣所以這個臺灣到底能不能做什麼事情這是開放的這是各國基於主權都可以來跟臺灣交往國際組織也是一樣"},{"start":5199.045,"end":5221.656,"text":"謝謝部長這個是正面的論述就是說我們要怎麼去告訴大家這個事實是什麼然後我們的邦交國怎麼去幫我們講話但因為反過來就是像中國他們會不斷的去在各式各樣的場合比如說這一次的今年的香格里拉會議他們又一樣會有這些這個通過這個台灣主權的一些論述那他每一次這種論述出來的時候我們的反擊的力道"},{"start":5222.136,"end":5243.997,"text":"就是當然我們跟盟友之間要選擇什麼時機然後去講2758號決議這是一個但另外一個就是他每一次中國在誤用2758號的時候我們除了能夠在社群媒體上面發聲明之外有沒有可能讓比如說我們跟盟友之間的聲明能夠時間點跟這個更為切合因為中國目前來講會來做這些事情的時間點大概都是那幾個"},{"start":5244.978,"end":5264.306,"text":"所以我希望說外交部在這件事情上面我們能夠更快速的去迎擊這個中國的論述我昨天剛好在跟國防部相關的事情也有講到就是有時候一些投書裡面的內容似是而非那國防部到底要在第一時間然後要怎麼去做論述然後要怎麼讓人民知道我覺得現在好像看起來是越來越重要"},{"start":5265.126,"end":5293.769,"text":"是一方面除了美國說以外當然也影響很多友盟當然比如G7一些國家另外美國其實在這次WHA上面他也是反制中國對2758的決意所以這個是就是說其實是作用力跟反作用力另外我特別跟很多來台灣我們的這些外賓都會講中共的法律戰他事實上是為他的武力犯台"},{"start":5294.813,"end":5311.443,"text":"在合理化取得一個所謂的法的基礎這是法律戰所以越是我們不去回應去破解這2758號決議的話他會以這個把台灣就是變成中國的內政台海變成中國的內海"},{"start":5312.083,"end":5335.806,"text":"而且大家一聽就覺得這不是單獨法律爭議的問題這是中共武力併台在做法律基礎的準備大家都會覺得說這個必須要我們一起來看怎麼樣去回應所以不只是參加國際組織而涉及到這個台海的和平跟穩定都會跟這一個2758號決議會有關那2758號決議其實很多人不去了解內容就用九二共識"},{"start":5337.367,"end":5358.137,"text":"很多人聽說有共識很好可是你去了解92年那時候就沒有什麼共識是後來發明的2000年蘇起所以我覺得不能夠變成一個就是他做到一個稻草人然後就是有所謂的這個2758號決議我覺得2758號決議某種程度是所謂中共虛構的七一共識"},{"start":5359.859,"end":5371.451,"text":"1971年那九二共識就是1992年又虛構了另外一個共識他用這樣的一個決議啦共識來作為合理化他武力犯台就把台灣問題變成中國的內政這個大家會聽說"},{"start":5375.115,"end":5396.316,"text":"對,這個就不是單獨只是說兩邊在那邊吵什麼這個法律的問題,它是涉及到混合戰,為法律,為這個軍事的犯台奠定基礎。謝謝部長,因為提到法律戰這一件事情我們都是感同身受,而且非常重要的一點是的確國際上很多的盟友對於法律戰這個legal warfare的概念並不是那麼清楚。"},{"start":5396.736,"end":5414.635,"text":"但他偏偏是寫在解放軍的教科書上面說這就是他們發動戰爭的一種方式所以讓盟友理解法律這樣的一個框架我認為是非常重要的而且這個所謂的這個不存在的協議他們最近才跟菲律賓也弄了一個幽靈協議就是對方到底簽協議的人在哪裡都不知道"},{"start":5415.015,"end":5439.529,"text":"他宣稱有這個協議的存在一樣的事情一定也會還會再對台灣發生但是這個剛好就切到下一個問題就是剛好他們公佈這個懲治台獨的意見然後這個台獨分子可以處以死刑啊什麼等等之類的那這個呢當然比較多可能是跟陸委會相關的不過這邊很快速的想要問一下外交部就是在於說因為他這個是廣泛的適用在他們所謂的台獨分子那這些人有可能在海外"},{"start":5440.229,"end":5462.098,"text":"在海外這些人可能有些國家他有一些引渡條例雖然政治犯原則上是不引渡的但是中國到底會做出什麼事情來以及跟他友好的國家會做出什麼事情來我們不敢擔保所以就變成說外交部這一次在這個意見出現之後對於海外的國人的這個告知然後還有風險的一個評估不知道開始了沒有"},{"start":5462.538,"end":5487.623,"text":"是,我們有做過國安高層的會議,比如說發布陳冊警戒、警告對於旅遊區、對於中國方面另外就是在海外因為有涉及到有一些跟中國有簽訂司法互助跟引渡條約的甚至裡面也有相當一部分有一中原則在建交公報裡面"},{"start":5488.103,"end":5513.544,"text":"那這個都是過去甚至有一些國家以所謂的對於刑事犯罪像詐騙那進行所謂的引渡或遣返那這些就是我們特別要注意所以我們已經有訓練外館要去跟當地政府溝通然後另外有任何的事態發生我們的處置我們現在也都在進行這方面那讓國人也提高警覺"},{"start":5514.545,"end":5537.356,"text":"然後不會讓中共的這個所謂的長臂管轄或者是跨境的鎮壓去傷害到國人因為這個問題是透過我想最近中共對像海警法也不只是對台灣他對於這個相當多的臨近的這些國家都是以他自己的法律在做國際上面的"},{"start":5538.316,"end":5566.861,"text":"這個就是說一個灰色地帶或混合戰那這個我們也是要跟國際要做好溝通這不是單獨對台灣好 謝謝部長那最後提醒一點因為時間到了就是說希望趕快可以給海外的台灣人有一些指引讓他們知道可能的風險然後再來就是中國在其他形式他有一個做法就是他可能先用詐欺的方式或者任何的其他的罪名先引渡等到到了中國之後他再轉換罪名變成政治犯這種事情也會蠻常見的所以可能也必須告訴國人這件事情"},{"start":5567.441,"end":5568.222,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員上台諮詢"},{"start":5591.571,"end":5599.173,"text":"謝謝主席有請林部長那麼歐洲司的司長如果等一下稍後需要的話可以協助部長回應請部長還有司長部長早委員早我們今天的題目其實就是如何運用國際友我組織來讓我國加入聯合國所以說我想承接剛剛這個沈伯陽委員的說法就是中國"},{"start":5618.997,"end":5620.418,"text":"所以委員會應該優先啊"},{"start":5640.624,"end":5662.139,"text":"所以中華民國國民就是台獨份子啊因為我必須講中華民國就是一個國家如果你要去延伸中國的定義的話那當然我們的定義我們自己做主沒錯但是他現在就是真的包山包海了我們要知道中華民國的國民你一出生接下來你有機會就會拿到身份證嘛對不對"},{"start":5662.759,"end":5677.02,"text":"所以這個部分部長你怎麼來看我延續的事來講是我們在這個推動國際組織的這個部分現在第一線的外管人員去強調我是中華民國的外交官的時候害怕嗎"},{"start":5679.568,"end":5698.055,"text":"外交官我們不會害怕我們就是說捍衛國家主權跟人民我覺得這個非常重要因為對於中國的恫嚇他其實就是先說先贏但是在先說先贏之後我們也了解到的是國際現實的狀況底下那麼除了大概統促黨新黨這種就是認為中華民國"},{"start":5702.267,"end":5726.168,"text":"等於中華人民共和國的一部分這種政治立場不然的話我們身為中華民國的國民那麼不論是從昨天的國防部的國軍弟兄保衛中華民國保衛我們自己的國家到第一線的外交人員但是我們看到的現在的國際現實是我特別列出來現在有53個國家跟中國是簽有引渡的條款包括香港"},{"start":5726.869,"end":5755.925,"text":"那麼言下之意就是現在說實話如果香港送到香港也等於送到中國我特別列出的53國當中像韓國、泰國、菲律賓、越南、新加坡、馬來西亞甚至於法國、英國、德國、義大利、捷克為什麼我會特別標紅點的原因是根據我的了解這些都是現在接下來今天大概就是學校尤其中小學生最後一天上課馬上進入7月就是旅遊的高峰季了"},{"start":5756.385,"end":5776.261,"text":"那麼當中國是用這種缺席審判的方式都可以來進行程序的時候我們拿著中華民國的護照出國那麼中國的懲治新規定外管要怎麼樣如何來因應會不會有剛剛我們所講的他隨便安你一個罪名就把你先用"},{"start":5777.182,"end":5803.353,"text":"所謂缺席審判然後就把你的人先押走甚至於把他引渡到中國你們現在有進行這樣的思考或者是跟國安單位或是相關的單位來進行SOP的演練或者是開會討論嗎有已經有開過國安高層的會議也責成國安會跟相關部會包括外交部就具體的因應再進一步來這個就是來讓"},{"start":5806.514,"end":5833.539,"text":"能夠有一個整體的因應的做法特別對外交部來講我們對外管因為這個涉及到跟當地國家的交涉怎麼去預防或萬一有發生的時候去妥善的因應那我們也訓練外管要注意這個最近這個因為中共公布了這個所謂懲治台獨的這些相關的意見之後可能的輿情的反應跟我們的溝通還有後續的因應"},{"start":5835.959,"end":5840.761,"text":"因為對於很多的國人來講今天一個最新的民調是有七成以上的民眾認為自己是台灣人那麼對於台灣民眾來講認為自己是中華民國的國民這個更是畫上等號無庸置疑的比如說我現在要舉一個例子就是昨天我們的蕭副總統也出席了這個在台灣舉辦的文化奧運的記者會我們有超過22個文化的表團會前往巴黎另外我們台灣代表隊其實現在也已經啟程出發了"},{"start":5864.85,"end":5885.118,"text":"也就是說7月20號開始之後我們看到的是會有許多包括參加奧運或者是表演文化表團現在人就在歐洲那麼這些有引渡條款的國家當中就包括了法國英國德國義大利跟捷克這些歐五的國家是連在一起的"},{"start":5885.498,"end":5905.725,"text":"有些人他是為了看奧運而去歐洲有些人當然是我們的代表國家代表隊會參加奧運或者是出席表演現在人就在歐洲那麼凸如其來的像這樣的一個新規範跟新規定對於這些代表隊或者是前往歐洲的人民的部分我想問一下歐洲司做了哪些準備"},{"start":5908.924,"end":5927.073,"text":"報告委員我們對於這個如果有萬一有發生什麼緊急應變我們已經有擬定緊急應變計畫那同時我們也請外管來進行演練那有關於這個新生出來的這個22條的問題"},{"start":5929.614,"end":5939.361,"text":"那我想依據國際的引渡的基本的原則他也必須要兼顧人權尤其您剛剛所提到這些國家基本上都是民主國家"},{"start":5940.145,"end":5957.236,"text":"好 但是如果就如同沈梁委員剛剛所說的他絕對第一個罪名不會認為說是安你一個台獨分裂分子他可以是用其他的詐騙或是其他的罪犯的名義包括過去我曾經在這裡質詢過國安局的局長他會檢查你的手機認為你的手機當中有認為他們不符合規定的"},{"start":5962.739,"end":5975.868,"text":"那麼像這樣的狀況的時候當然那是在中國會發生但是在歐洲的時候他用其他的方式的時候這個部分你們有沒有提醒國人必須要注意包括現在提醒要前往歐洲的民眾國人要了解"},{"start":5980.825,"end":6003.69,"text":"我想我們目前也會加強跟我們營業相近的夥伴國家的溝通那尤其是在引渡的事情上面我想他們也會都應據他們個別的國內法他們是基於他們的法治跟民主理念我們會特別提醒說這方面他們也要特別的謹慎尤其是當涉及到中國的問題的時候"},{"start":6004.943,"end":6026.177,"text":"好那最後一個問題要請教部長的就是有關於現在中美代表俞大雷所引發的這些爭議對於部內來講現在是不是已經調查清楚了我想應該是分成兩個部分第一個當然就是有關於公款的這個使用那麼公款的使用我認為外交人員在國外代表的就是我們的國家就是中華民國"},{"start":6028.298,"end":6042.955,"text":"不到奢華但是我認為也不需要裝窮尤其是台灣can help台灣是一個可以協助各個國家的所以在公款的使用上面我們明明白白會有規矩會有規定那麼有它必要該花我們則花"},{"start":6044.556,"end":6065.588,"text":"那這個部分我想外交部應該可以給一個比較明確的答案那麼至於還有其他包括館長尤其是余大雷他在管理上面有沒有出問題這個部分現在外交部有查清楚了嗎有答案了嗎因為包括現在國民黨要求他兩個禮拜之內回來但是我們要知道外交工作尤其是剛剛我們提到的"},{"start":6067.549,"end":6068.23,"text":"所以部長這兩個問題外交部查清楚了嗎?"},{"start":6085.604,"end":6098.559,"text":"採購的部分我想都是依法依程序相關的規範辦理至於說個別的項目外界有一些不同的這個意見涉及到"},{"start":6099.994,"end":6100.354,"text":"那這有超出預算嗎?"},{"start":6126.796,"end":6152.426,"text":"他都是需要經過我們秘書處還有我們的會計單位同意還有核可所以這個程序上是沒有問題所以說認定上那當然就是把它解釋清楚那立法委員也有要這個資料我們也有給那當然有些說因為什麼用秘因為涉及到外管他判斷這些項目可能會涉及到一些機敏性但是內容的部分都有讓委員可以知道"},{"start":6153.226,"end":6166.297,"text":"那至於說管理上確實在第一線打仗壓力很大那同仁特別辛苦我們一定要能夠相互的扶持因為我們是一致要對外那內部的管理要該檢討改革都應該不斷的來精進"},{"start":6170.779,"end":6193.309,"text":"好 本席就要講的是不要讓第一線不論是基層或者是代表國家的外交官能夠感覺上好像他們的努力沒有受到重視那不論是基層或者是代表的助管的這個外交官代表其實都是同樣的對為外交來做努力那麼這個部分還是請部長要注意好謝謝"},{"start":6199.569,"end":6200.29,"text":"徐巧欣委員"},{"start":6223.243,"end":6240.083,"text":"林部長好,說起來對你有點為難,因為你才剛上任,但我今天要問的問題呢,很多發生的都是在前一任的吳釗燮部長的任內,但是我相信你會有決心希望改革,讓這樣子的事情不再發生,對嗎?"},{"start":6242.788,"end":6258.84,"text":"我們發現駐美代表處的問題可以說是非常的多在過去馬文君召委曾經揭露一件事情就是外交官搞婚外情而且情緒勒索不允許分手就是大家可以自己看文字"},{"start":6259.7,"end":6285.091,"text":"在去年6月的時候我們馬昭偉就已經問過了請問一下後來這位交信的參事他還在外交部任職嗎?他的職務現在是什麼?在部內在部內他的職務是什麼?副司長副司長嘛歐洲是從駐美參事的交到歐洲式的副司長我們"},{"start":6293.209,"end":6312.048,"text":"所以我們在馬朝偉提出了相關的細節說外遇啊PUA之後呢那他其實實際上面還在我們外交體系裡面那有很好的職務可以擔任你們大家對於這個事情沒有太多的檢討我們北美市長想要說明因為他比較了解這個情況"},{"start":6314.911,"end":6334.687,"text":"他現在是我們的副司長那先前這個事情這個黑函出來的時候我是在駐美代表處的我有曾經問過我們國會組的同仁沒有人說有被他就是情緒勒索任何的情況這些我們在駐美代表處所做的這些跟同仁的訪談我們都有做成書面的記錄"},{"start":6336.788,"end":6355.565,"text":"這是沒有發生的事情那我們另外的收到了一個陳情就是我們新聞在報的于大雷代表的夫人對於某一位我們的事務官不喜歡他因為認為他服務不周而被換掉又遭到行政組長衛信的組長據說就是剛剛這一位"},{"start":6359.808,"end":6379.115,"text":"前駐美參市的焦先生的妻子．對她的霸凌造成同仁必須離職你們都說沒有收到陳情書現在我手上有一份陳情書我想要請主席裁示讓我把這份陳情書遞交給我們的外交部長我們時間稍微停一下好 謝謝給我好 謝謝"},{"start":6391.898,"end":6393.339,"text":"在這個陳情書裡面他提到了包含是分工不平均這個員工數次表示自己的職務太繁重希望可以重新分工已經負荷過了但是還要被強加更多的職務"},{"start":6408.408,"end":6436.1,"text":"還有業務上碰到困難要反應的時候會先批評他的做事方式工作上面求救無效已經沒有辦法負擔之後卻沒有辦法找到其他的管道而且會討論是非在這個群組上質疑他然後也沒有求證所以這個部分既然現在已經有人來澄清部長是否能夠同意回去調查那再將結果回覆給我們"},{"start":6437,"end":6459.231,"text":"我們沒有公開相關的這個被陳情仁的資料也是就像剛剛您說的我們也不希望我們也希望經過調查之後再確認這件事情是否為真請問部長能夠在多久的時間之內做到呢當然委員剛剛給我這一份資料那看起來是有點好像他寫給內部的"},{"start":6461.463,"end":6474.968,"text":"同仁是不是正式的澄清當然我們會了解不過有這個資料我們也會來了解那大概需要多久的時間我們能夠調查完畢再跟我說明"},{"start":6477.149,"end":6501.579,"text":"應該是一個月內我們可以把這個事情然後我們再看到外交部的霸凌事件頻傳這是我們整理出來所有外交部在過去這個也不能怪您當時您也不是外交部長在無招卸任內裡面的外交部的官員頻頻遭到霸凌、輕生還有涉及性騷擾還有記得我還有這個外交的性騷、MeToo等等的事件"},{"start":6502.159,"end":6502.779,"text":"請問部長這個人還在我們的外交部嗎?"},{"start":6525.149,"end":6528.932,"text":"是否當時有涉及這樣的一個問題沒問題請來幫忙補充跟委員報告關於修士頓的羅處長的部分像目前是已經調回到我們外交學院那至於是不是婚外情這部分我們基本上沒有辦法完全求證"},{"start":6543.882,"end":6546.964,"text":"他有沒有對於部內的他們的基層員工進行霸凌你們有沒有了解過這件事情這件事情應該是我們沒有接到這樣子的一個訊息你們沒有接到但是我有接到這個呢 處長呢他的霸凌行徑是什麼"},{"start":6571.88,"end":6594.843,"text":"我們駐美處的專員被羅姓處長要求每天上班的時候只能坐在電腦桌前面不能開電腦不能做任何事就是呆呆的坐在前面8個小時再回家已經逼到對方快要輕生所以後來這名這個年輕的專員現在也已經調回台北目前呢在我們"},{"start":6595.424,"end":6604.609,"text":"現在好好的在我們的外交部持續的來任職這個案子部長您一定是不知情的那請問是不是也可以進行調查"},{"start":6605.635,"end":6626,"text":"做一個全面性的改革我們會來了解因為如果涉及到不管是這個相關的這個性騷擾或者是這些當然這個我們法令規定很民主可是所謂的霸凌還有內部領導或管理那這個我們需要當然"},{"start":6627.54,"end":6646.608,"text":"在外管當然這個館長他要負起權責不過就是我們也要去了解啦因為有時候是工作上的關係的分工那是不是構成到霸凌這個也是要再加以釐清那不能說大家自己關關相護這是我的要求再來大家很關心這個余大雷的事情嘛"},{"start":6647.468,"end":6659.251,"text":"現在被爆料的包含是這個超級貴的沙發然後兩樁超級貴的床墊然後藍芽音響咖啡機跟地毯不過就你們提供給我們的資料報紙上面的這些報導跟實際上面的價格是不太一樣的報導的價格我們可以看下一張這個跟你們提供給我們資料是有出入的那剛才部長也講了大概200多萬左右"},{"start":6672.734,"end":6686.529,"text":"但是呢我想問一個問題你們只提供給我們在這個一萬美元以上的項目但一萬美元以下的私人物品的部分你們會不會再針對這個部分進行調查他有沒有挪用公款的情況"},{"start":6687.421,"end":6687.741,"text":"最後我有一個問題要問"},{"start":6703.656,"end":6715.95,"text":"為交部回覆本辦關於所謂的這個凱迪拉克的這個車子是否有去購買的時候你們提供給我的內容叫做駐美代表處113年並未提出"},{"start":6719.433,"end":6746.096,"text":"並未提出購置館長坐車之需求該處館長坐車已於111年5月購置完畢車型為Benz E5450排氣量為3000cc可是你們在新聞記者會的說明資料裏面寫的是外交部並沒有同意相關的採購車輛意思是說對方有提出但是你們沒有同意請問哪一份才是正確的"},{"start":6747.037,"end":6768.594,"text":"來我請那個林子春跟委員報告那個館長的那個坐車確實是沒有提出那那個新聞稿裡面說外交部並沒有同意換購相關車輛是公務車的部分所以是公務車的部分嗎所以除了這台Benz之外他還額外希望要買一台公務車是凱迪拉克但是外交部沒有同意這樣的需求嗎"},{"start":6769.355,"end":6769.755,"text":"好,謝謝部長"},{"start":6800.39,"end":6802.672,"text":"接下來請王定宇召委上臺質詢王定宇召委上臺質詢"},{"start":6828.459,"end":6853.055,"text":"外交總是充滿困難的那我們常常是希望給我們外交人員不管在國外或國內都給予最大的支持跟鼓勵但是一旦有了黑函有了醜聞有了這樣的傳聞不管是否為真對於該住管的工作的執行人員的士氣都有相當大的影響"},{"start":6855,"end":6871.693,"text":"所以本期期待部長對於相關的傳聞甚至於有時候臨時問你你根本沒辦法辨別真假像我剛才聽到我不認為現在年輕的外交官可以被處長館長叫去坐在電腦前面盯著那個螢幕不准開機"},{"start":6874.054,"end":6902.323,"text":"這個現在公務員也不容許這樣子對待所以是否為真要儘速有個答案哪怕半夜都應該有答案而不是在回答說這個我們來瞭解看看因為一旦傳聞被傳後面證明不是真的傷害都已造成更何況外交人員代表是我們國家的門面所以有關美國住處這是我們台灣最重要的外交單位那這個真相本其實希望"},{"start":6903.513,"end":6903.957,"text":"不要再拖過24個小時"},{"start":6906.347,"end":6934.109,"text":"進速有個答案比如說他要換車後來看起來是沒有嘛他自己的車沒有要換他希望有個車這些東西都可以調列出來是否隕蕩那我們也不是要求我們駐外人員每個人都要有補丁要過著清垦因為代表是國家的門面就像國外的外國大使住在台灣他們要求的管社大概都是地保那個等級的這都有一定代表國家顏面所以在合宜合理的範圍內"},{"start":6935.629,"end":6948.655,"text":"後部長我覺得你們應該就這樣的傳聞盡速釐清否則每次有人事異動每次有人事的這個將部長換了下面這些我們就會收到一疊信"},{"start":6950.327,"end":6977.637,"text":"那以往當然有的有的真的像秦日新那個就真的嘛秦日新那是真的那發生那個事情該怎麼處分就該怎麼處分所以不要包庇不要護短但是牽涉到國家外交事務特別美國現在總統大選特別台美關係現在是重要的關係在這樣狀況下美促的事情就不容許這樣延燒我不曉得部長你從美促發生這樣的事情到目前為止所有的傳聞你們到底掌握多少"},{"start":6981.244,"end":6981.488,"text":"原來是"},{"start":6982.677,"end":7009.255,"text":"各方的意見我都有收到首先就是說採購的部分我們把它釐清管理的部分採購有沒有如同傳聞的或者報導的那個狀況所以外面講說800萬那我今天早上在記者也有說明就是說扣掉了那些硬體就是備用的發電機事實上上半年整個這些採購的財產就是大概"},{"start":7013.277,"end":7014.759,"text":"該怎麼處理就怎麼處理嘛"},{"start":7040.59,"end":7066.389,"text":"我也不認為現在有哪個官大到可以非他不可但是如果沒有不當也應該要明確否則這樣在外裡面這樣放火燒對國家不是好事我在意的不是一個個人或一個外交官而是這個事情處理的態度外交部應該要清楚明瞭而迅速我跟委員說明因為我們所掌握到就是因為外館有人"},{"start":7068.046,"end":7096.08,"text":"人的不滿提供了這個資料那也給委員那後來也給媒體這是另外一部分內部的領導管理的問題但是我說就已經發生了我們就要來處理人的不滿現代社會都會有啦社會做方便的啦手機還可以寫嘛但我的意思說站在外交部作為國家的門面你應該去思考是他所傳出來的事情第一個有沒有涉及不法沒有就說沒有有的話就依從法辦"},{"start":7097.04,"end":7123.34,"text":"再來有沒有合於我們長年數十年累積的外交的規範跟禮儀也有那就說清楚最後有沒有涉及私德不當的那如果這三個都沒有那只是說我感受到覺得你對我不禮貌那個就讓社會來公平而不是說大家不能講可以講但是前面這三塊很重要因為這三塊如果回答的置之烏烏不清不楚的話我坦白講"},{"start":7124.767,"end":7127.068,"text":"所以委員我在第一次回應外界就是說這個事情沒有步伐"},{"start":7140.202,"end":7164.77,"text":"那依照採購的規定但是是不是有它的必要性跟合理性這就要項目去討論這一題我現在沒有定見答應我沒有看到資訊我只能建議部長在最快的時間內不要再過20小時了很清楚的就法律規定就外交的我們一般的禮儀規範以及就私人的部分這三塊有或沒有能夠釐清現在24小時都可以通電話了"},{"start":7166.45,"end":7189.936,"text":"這樣子讓國人說喔那這個可能是人跟人的相處或者人事的問題或者怎麼樣那講的人就講那有個價值判斷而已但至少這三塊有沒有清清楚楚這要盡快啦好不好我最後請我接下來請教那個我們跟范帝剛的問題范帝剛現在是我們在歐洲齁大概唯一也是重要的外交關係那教廷國"},{"start":7191.328,"end":7206.214,"text":"跟中國之間在這一任的教宗他一直希望他有個歷史成就歷史定位也就是照顧中國教區的信徒我們對這沒意見天主教有他的這個他的神權國家的一個概念"},{"start":7207.034,"end":7230.97,"text":"那中國呢中共一直他是無神論國家所以中共那邊的主教叫做愛國主教愛國神職人員都要他來任命所以一直有抵觸下所以台灣跟梵蒂岡的邦交呢相對起來是一個穩定但從這一任教宗在前幾年由香港的主教向台灣提出警告我們就一直在密切注意這個事情了這幾天"},{"start":7232.324,"end":7257.932,"text":"在中共的官媒環球網很罕見的報導了兩件事情一個是承認梵蒂岡任命杭州主教做標題等於是承認他任命主教第二個是梵蒂岡希望在中國設立常設辦事處就這個消息因為"},{"start":7259.073,"end":7260.534,"text":"有關於這個報導兩個部分第一個部分就是教廷他"},{"start":7285.236,"end":7287.639,"text":"中國讓教廷國可以派主教?"},{"start":7295.706,"end":7314.968,"text":"不是,因為他們有一個臨時的主教任命協議那他們是依據他們的臨時主教任命協議由他們雙方協調的結果那所以事實上中國在這個過程中也扮演他們自己的角色"},{"start":7316.936,"end":7324.082,"text":"長期以來是認為任命主教權是神權不能有協調的過程對 但是他們跟所以常說這個主教是經過協調任命出來的"},{"start":7326.476,"end":7353.474,"text":"這個是他們依據他們現在已經應該是第5年或第6年有一個臨時協議那他們跟越南也是有類似的處理方法教廷希望在中國設辦事處這件事情教廷已經說了非常多次但是中國依據教廷的說法中國一直在這個問題上他並沒有願意讓步因為教宗"},{"start":7354.976,"end":7378.476,"text":"因為如果是有這個代表那是教宗的代表但是中國是一個無神論的國家所以我時間到我請最後請教我們現在跟教廷國的邦交狀況我們跟他們的跟教廷的邦交基本上是穩固比如說在520總統就職的時候教廷也派遣了特使你現在還在用燈號標示有他現在是什麼燈"},{"start":7380.248,"end":7391.599,"text":"這部分好像是機密我可以跟委員進行報告機密我尊重因為我們每個國家都坦白講沒有一個局勢是可以樂觀的很多蛛絲馬跡還是要注意好謝謝部長好謝謝"},{"start":7399.902,"end":7410.647,"text":"目前我們收到臨時提案共兩案待會黃國昌委員質詢結束以後進行處理處理完畢休息5分鐘現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢請部長"},{"start":7432.18,"end":7459.559,"text":"委員長部長,台灣現在是正常國家嗎?很特別啦我們在國際的地位是很特別的正常的國家應該說很特別就是當然你看怎麼定義正常比如說國際上面的這個外交上這個處境確實是很不正常很特別"},{"start":7460.509,"end":7488.591,"text":"一個國家它的幾個構成的要件這個我想就不用再贅述那其中加入聯合國是其中的重要的要件嗎不是不是嗎不是重要的要件今天我看到我們的議程是說請部長來報告如何用國際友我組織來去加入聯合國那其實在這半年來不管是在當選前後那跟各個不同的國會議員的交流的這個過程當中我們有聽到一些不同的"},{"start":7489.178,"end":7489.838,"text":"我今天想問說"},{"start":7512.762,"end":7522.631,"text":"把這個議程我們用另外一個方式來想如何運用國際友我組織達成加入聯合國的同等目標是部長有怎麼樣的看法針對這句話"},{"start":7525.92,"end":7547.761,"text":"運用友我的組織達成加入聯合國相關組織的具體做法是你們的命題嘛那我說有沒有辦法運用友我的組織達成加入聯合國的相關的同等目標聯合國的幾個重要的議程是什麼包含永續嘛包含這個跟各國之間的交等等有沒有辦法用超聯合國的這樣子也是一樣"},{"start":7548.462,"end":7551.565,"text":"國際上各種非聯合國體制下相關聯盟來加強我國與其他國際上的國家實體或非國家實體互動,有這樣的想法或計畫嗎?"},{"start":7565.439,"end":7593.241,"text":"其實在全球化的時代其實台灣是世界的台灣這個不只是說價值外交理念相近至少說實質上台灣其實對全球的影響是很大的我想包括從晶片那另外一方面就是我們在國際上怎麼去參與當然聯合國是最重要的目標但是不是只有聯合國"},{"start":7593.982,"end":7619.703,"text":"我們跟很多國家其實很多國際組織也不屬於聯合國那臺灣也可以去創設一些國際組織所以臺灣這個方面我們勇敢自信世界同行那至於說為什麼要去處理參加聯合國那是因為中國對於臺灣參加聯合國把它當作一個一中原則的體現我們一定是要去不能夠接受這一種勿用這個所謂的2758號決議那這個就像一個"},{"start":7623.106,"end":7639.519,"text":"一個鍋蓋把台灣蓋住這個鍋蓋如果能夠拿走那台灣的國際參與空間就非常的大但是這個目標也是最大的很困難的一個挑戰可是以這個為目標之外我們其實在過程中其實就跟國際有很多的互動"},{"start":7640.649,"end":7663.155,"text":"其實這個也是另外一個目標所以部長我還是在強調說除了加入聯合國之外其他相似的功能性做功能性的導向來去盤點任何國際組織在被聯合國體制之下我們能夠參與能夠發聲那甚至是能夠扮演重要角色的我們都能夠來去促成我想這也是很重要的但是我想剛才也提到2758號的決議文我想請部長"},{"start":7665.376,"end":7694.426,"text":"再次透過這樣子國會的這個機會來去重申一下因為2758號決議文現在在中國的敘事框架他直接把它連結到一中原則部長你怎麼看這件事情你覺得我們要怎麼樣解讀我覺得針對美國包括國務院的數次的聲明都可以很清楚的看到其實他們是經過很詳細的研究不管就聯合國的這個2758號決議相關的國際法那其實它的內容"},{"start":7696.028,"end":7724.667,"text":"不涉及台灣的國際的參與所以這個部分就是一個開放的空間那至於說中共要把它把它扭曲為一中原則進而排除台灣那我想我們除了台灣發聲以外其實在國際上現在越來越多都去理解說原來那個是一個中共他這個塑造出來的依靠假的論述那"},{"start":7725.643,"end":7744.642,"text":"台灣其實在這個過程裡面跟理念相近的國家像G7其實都以行動在加強我們多邊的關係比如說我們也透過跟美國像GCTF像國際合作訓練架構其實也在架構一個可能另外的一個國際的一種組織的關係"},{"start":7747.205,"end":7773.889,"text":"所以這些其實空間是非常的大那現在只是怎麼樣讓更多的人正確的理解不要聽信中共的片面之詞而排除了跟台灣交往或者國際參與謝謝部長部長再來要請教一下這個駐美代表的事件我覺得要藉這個機會來正式聽那不管是怎麼樣如果有這件事情我們要知道這個進展為如何從2000年到現在我們有幾個代表"},{"start":7776.239,"end":7801.941,"text":"2000年到現在大概沒關係這個不重要這不重要我們來講一下從陳建仁李大偉吳釗燮袁建生金浦聰神旅尋道高碩泰我們一切要講究的是什麼就是說體制上面如果不違法那如果你只是用觀感或者是你代表對一個人的不滿那就可以用內部的方式來去糾舉嗎這是現行的體制是怎麼樣做"},{"start":7802.841,"end":7803.161,"text":"這是兩個問題啦就是說採購是不是有為"},{"start":7808.519,"end":7831.445,"text":"反法規目前因為它既然是我們秘書處跟我們的會計合可的那就是程序上沒有問題所以是合法但是有個項目有些人覺得有意見那也經過媒體報導我們把它澄清就是說這個項目它的真正的價格是多少那有沒有反應實際上就是"},{"start":7833.425,"end":7847.35,"text":"我現在不做細部來去做討論因為如果要做每一個細部來討論的話那這樣子同時可以反映到五院院長每一個部會的首長甚至包含部長本身下到縣市首長我們要問的是你剛剛說合法再有沒有合理"},{"start":7853.112,"end":7870.269,"text":"前例可不可詢?從陳建仁、李大維、吳釗燮、袁建生、金浦聰、沈旅巡到高索泰。前例比較起來,是不是符合前例?有或沒有?所以除了合法性、他的這個要性嗎?合理性有沒有跟過去是一樣的?有沒有不同之處?"},{"start":7871.601,"end":7891.653,"text":"就是就那些項目因為一開始大家報的數字很大後來知道不是這麼大有一些是錯誤的報導嘛那我們就把它澄清那我說為什麼那個具體的項目要去談是因為大家覺得從自己的感覺就好像比較貴可是經過說明啊也有他他也也是一個採購部長我們就是我只是要"},{"start":7893.214,"end":7916.622,"text":"要請教的是有沒有跟潛力是一致性有沒有我不是講單價我不要講價格我們對這個價格沒有如果是合理又合法的話那我們要還公道如果是合法但不合理的話那內部要有懲處那如果又是合法又合理那只是一個外交人員的看法的話那內部要檢討所以你有沒有合法有沒有合理到底這件事情"},{"start":7917.662,"end":7942.478,"text":"是對還是錯?誰對誰錯?這個一定要很公正的必須要部長作為外交部的大家長必須要站出來哪一個人到底是哪一個人做錯了必須要很明確的克責的這個做法不管是哪一個不管是大使或者是...這種採購我們都有規範跟程序他只要符合這個規範跟程序基本上我們就尊重不管權責機關不管是駐外的這個大使或者我們的秘書、會計單位"},{"start":7945.459,"end":7960.927,"text":"這單項因為外界已經有報導了因為有錯誤的訊息我們就澄清至於說外界認為這樣有沒有必要性去換這個床跟沙發我今天早上也講這床的部分因為20年前同樣一個品牌他去換現在價格比較高"},{"start":7962.368,"end":7991.412,"text":"他應該是有合理性可是沙發比一般人認定的可能價格高一些那就好好的去說明這個採購因為這個採購已經經過我們外交部的秘書處跟已經合可了在我上任之前我覺得這個只要是依法行政我都予以尊重至於說內部因為有些人對於管理方式有意見而可能去有爆料的問題那只要他的內容是"},{"start":7993.321,"end":8014.628,"text":"是真的我們就要處理他也許還沒有正式去申訴或者是說去怎麼樣的檢舉我們目前並沒有正式的這樣的一個他提出來但是我們大概知道因為內部的管理又涉及到在外管這個時候"},{"start":8017.257,"end":8037.991,"text":"要去好好地把內部管理的東西也做個檢討因為讓大家一起一個團隊不要因為互相的這種不信任或者是因為工作上的這些不平而導致我們外館尤其在華府這個地方這麼重要它的能夠發揮的一個功能"},{"start":8042.198,"end":8042.458,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢"},{"start":8084.382,"end":8085.69,"text":"信律主席是嗎?有請部長請部長"},{"start":8097.308,"end":8123.259,"text":"部長好針對駐美大使在他住的地方採買的事情引發了社會非常多的討論那部長從今天詢答的過程也做了很多的表示但我要講一個比較範圍比較大而不是只有這個隔岸的事情因為我去的時候我去喊的時候你們的確有回函但編密件雖然"},{"start":8124.66,"end":8147.329,"text":"我對於這個事情為什麼要編密件我老實說我從法律的角度百思不得己見但我尊重外交部你們編密件我就把它全部遮起來內容我有看但你們編密件了以後給我的訊號是細節不能公開內容不能討論要不然會有洩密的問題嘛好那你們編密件"},{"start":8148.632,"end":8170.421,"text":"你們的基礎應該是行政院的文書處理手冊第51條各機關就主管業務核定一般公務機密文書因依法律或法律具體授權的法規命令為之你們這次編密件的法律或者是法律授權的法規命令是什麼是我同時來說明一下"},{"start":8173.496,"end":8198.797,"text":"報告委員因為我們各個外管的經費的明細是放在我們的機密預算的內容去表達那這樣子的表達方式其實每年都有經過大院審議同意通過那所以我們送給委員的資料我們是依照相關規定我們還是回到法規來講因為你一直跟我講相關規定所以我幫你們把行政院文書處理手冊第51條列出來了嗎"},{"start":8201.619,"end":8226.514,"text":"是我引的調製錯嗎?還是你用其他的條文的規定?台灣是法治國家這種事情要說清楚講明白啊他是說總預算在提出的時候有點太機密來來來請部長看一下第51條因依法規或法律具體明確授權的法規命令為之嘛那我現在就請教你你的法律或法律授權的法規命令的基礎是什麼啊?"},{"start":8229.771,"end":8256.362,"text":"這是一個很基本的問題啊我們號稱我們希望台灣是一個民主法治的國家我們跟老共不一樣嘛老共是人質嘛是獨裁政體嘛上面的人說了就算了嘛台灣就不是嘛那請問法規的依據是什麼我想經過大院審過的預算放列在機密預算它本身也具有法律的效果我這樣講好了啦"},{"start":8257.13,"end":8286.497,"text":"你說列為機密預算那誰會把它露出來有法律的效力沒有關係你做這樣子的說明法律上面站得住腳站不住腳大家可以進一步討論你們說這些資訊有機密性恐遭中共掌握我國外館的資源配置我國外館大使的宿舍沙發花多少錢我們擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情"},{"start":8288.752,"end":8307.41,"text":"我們咖啡機花多少錢擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情會擔心我們的大使咖啡喝太好然後台灣的外交會做得太好因為這個基本上的邏輯要跟道理要跟一般的民眾講清楚要不然大家沒辦法理解"},{"start":8309.509,"end":8324.105,"text":"請部長我們的同仁說明一下雖然我們提供的資料是比較個案零星但是這涉及到整體的資源的配置今天如果我將這些零星的資料"},{"start":8324.565,"end":8325.466,"text":"對,所以我在一直問你啊,相關規定是什麼?"},{"start":8344.667,"end":8347.068,"text":"如果今天我把具體的數字講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題"},{"start":8370.179,"end":8370.399,"text":"尊重委員決定"},{"start":8384.538,"end":8402.626,"text":"這不是你尊重我的決定啊臺灣是一個法治國家嘛所以你們依照的法律到底是什麼然後你今天跟我說你尊重我的決定我具體的請教站在外交部的立場我把一套沙發花了多少錢講出去有沒有泄密罪的問題有還是沒有"},{"start":8403.746,"end":8414.857,"text":"我們用密件處理希望委員依照相關規定辦理是阿所以我到目前為止都尊重你們的密件阿我請教你密件的法律基礎是什麼問到現在你還是講不出來阿"},{"start":8419.215,"end":8421.676,"text":"臺灣作為一個法治國家,要不要有一個客觀的法律標準?應該要有嗎?"},{"start":8445.339,"end":8473.12,"text":"部長你應該可以同意嘛是是吧好來看一下去年外交部單位決算書這個是我上網公開上面看到的資料來看一下2023年12月5號電惠預付美國預購新任余大使館長植物宿舍家具及公務手機所需費用7697美金奇怪這不是機密嗎"},{"start":8474.758,"end":8503.426,"text":"怎麼會在決算報告裡面寫得這麼清楚在決算報告寫成這樣然後告訴立委所知說這是機密這個會不會洩漏我國啊在大使的資源配置啊他說不會啦報委員因為我們在決算書上面只會去揭露預付款的項目這是屬於零星採購是看不出來整個但是你讓大家知道最少花了7600嘛"},{"start":8505.452,"end":8520.374,"text":"謝謝委員指教但是我們之所以解釋提供委員的資料會涉及到密件是因為會看得出來說整體的資源的配置這樣子我們希望我們是依照相關規定辦理我又說一次啦這個零星採購是看不出來的"},{"start":8521.741,"end":8548.824,"text":"零星採購看不出來一個沙發多少錢看得出來看不出來我們是盡量公開就公開但是如果會涉及到違及到相關資源的配置的整體的項目的時候我們一定要所以你今天的論理是說一套沙發多少錢會違及到整體資源的配置不是對不起委員不是這樣解釋剛剛你不就是這樣說嗎這是屬於零星購置但是我提供給委員資料所以買沙發不是零星購置"},{"start":8551.463,"end":8553.007,"text":"買咖啡機是不是零星購置?"},{"start":8554.331,"end":8580.228,"text":"買手機是不是零星購置謝謝委員指教因為在預付款上面只有部分項目那我們提供給委員的項目是比較有整體性的那會看出來全貌我還是問問題嘛咖啡機一台多少錢會不會揭露整體配置會嗎他說不會我想應該也不會所以咖啡機一台多少錢是可以講的嗎是嗎咖啡機一台多少是可以講的嗎"},{"start":8581.717,"end":8584.538,"text":"沙發一套多少錢是可以講的嗎所以既然剛剛部長講了嘛咖啡機多少可以講沙發多少錢可以講這個是剛剛部長說的內容我應該沒有誤會錯吧"},{"start":8604.019,"end":8604.419,"text":"我再說一次齁"},{"start":8622.612,"end":8644.338,"text":"國家機密有國家機密保護法一般公務機密有一般公務機密的法律或法規命令臺灣是一個法治國家什麼是密什麼不是密這應該要有法律明確的標準絕對不應該是行政單位個別自議的決定這樣的原則部長可以同意吧"},{"start":8645.954,"end":8647.955,"text":"但是我們不能公開討論因為公開討論就洩密啦"},{"start":8661.867,"end":8688.155,"text":"我是覺得那個結構啦就那個配置啦因為給委員的是不能我只給單項嘛那但是我們現在討論的時候所以我單項可以討論嗎可以因為現在有些錯誤的報導我們當然澄清不然會造成傷害啊這個單項我是覺得解釋上是可以的啊現在按你們內部報帳的規則啊按你們內部報帳的規則有沒有任何規定一套沙發最高金額多少錢"},{"start":8689.824,"end":8710.542,"text":"因為各地的物價還有一些沒有關係我們就以美國來講一套雜貨最高的價格你們有沒有規定因為你們剛剛一直跟大家講嘛合乎規定所以報銷嘛合乎規定報銷合法的我們一定都尊重合不合理規定有沒有需要修改可以再討論但我現在的問題來了"},{"start":8712.384,"end":8730.876,"text":"那依照你們目前的規定一套沙發有沒有設上限我講的是規定喔現在沒有切入到個案喔一套沙發以在美國來講在DC來講我們採購上限的金額按照目前外交部的規定是多少錢還是這也是外交秘密不能說"},{"start":8732.23,"end":8761.409,"text":"目前沒有規定啦所以沒有上線?沒有規定上線這樣合理嗎?部長你覺得?每個個案都要去討論嘛因為他當地的物價沒有我現在沒有在跟你討論個案我現在在跟你討論規定嘛我跟委員報告採購的金額如果沒有上線的話那就是不管買多少錢全部都合法因為沒有上線啊他有一個他要去申報跟那個他有一個合適的過程你申報合可就要按照規則嘛所以我才問你規則有沒有上線嘛"},{"start":8762.109,"end":8782.703,"text":"他不是一條線死的,他一定是衡量各種情況各國的物價,然後我們的會計時間的關係,你們把事情複雜化了,你用的公開的預算,你用的科目是哪一個科目你把它編在密件嗎?機密嗎?這是公開的預算吧?"},{"start":8783.746,"end":8787.008,"text":"我理解,我現在只拜託部長一件事情"},{"start":8814.127,"end":8831.496,"text":"我們住外的人員需要的資源在第一線打仗我們一定支持啦公務的支出我們一定支持啦但是花這個數額去買沙發必要性在哪裡那不是在辦公室那在他住的地方"},{"start":8832.793,"end":8848.214,"text":"大家常常問嘛所以我現在我也不跟你講個案我跟你講規定外交部可不可以告訴所有的委員我們在外館採購各項物品我們所依循的規定是什麼"},{"start":8849.495,"end":8873.02,"text":"還是有各項變數就像我們以前我們要出國開會去哪裡一天報多少錢什麼可以報什麼不可以報項目是多少全部都有規定啊但我今天赫然發現原來買外館的東西我現在在講的喔不是什麼機密的公務的東西我現在在講的是咖啡機啊"},{"start":8873.78,"end":8895.538,"text":"是沙發?是床啊?是床頭櫃啊?這些東西可以沒有標準?愛怎麼買就怎麼買嗎?這是我的問題喔他一萬元以上要報到我們部裡面來核可就是這個程序我們會檢討讓他避免有一些就是外面覺得說相關的程序跟標準會後可不可以提供給所有的委員程序跟標準我沒有要個案喔程序跟標準就好了"},{"start":8901.584,"end":8926.143,"text":"我們有那個支出的相關規定嘛那如果這個部分因為已經有大家的寶貴意見我們會納入啊看怎麼樣能夠讓他有個更明確的規範對所以你的程序跟規範是不是可以提供給大家好謝謝那待會相關的可能也順便提供一下因為不知道你用的是哪一個科目可是提供之用的情形"},{"start":8927.899,"end":8928.899,"text":"一共有兩案,請議事人員宣讀第一案。"},{"start":8944.534,"end":8961.786,"text":"第一案,經我國外交部著名代表于大雷、經崔少哲報料及媒體報導,于代表上任後,對於公款使用有腐爛使用之嫌及私人物品之採購交代不清,並有曾行指出其太太不當使用外管公務車,更有對外"},{"start":8963.539,"end":8989.258,"text":"對外交基層人員使喚霸凌情勢．有調查釐清之必要．請外交部競速安排召回於大壘代表．對此次事件與相關公費之用情形品項明細．諸位人員是否遭不當對待與使喚等事．作出調查報告．並於兩週內回覆提案人委員徐巧欣．黃仁馬文君陳永康等委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":8991.291,"end":9018.596,"text":"好 請問我們在場委員有沒有什麼其他的意見表達好 許曉旭委員我是這個案子的提案人嘛之一那我想呢是這樣子因為我看到這個余大雷代表他在美國的時候他有開了記者會然後他也做了很多的澄清可是他在這個美國做的澄清看起來在台灣這邊呢那大家還是有很多的質疑"},{"start":9019.156,"end":9030.829,"text":"所以我覺得應該給他一個機會來到台灣把這整個事情說清楚也能夠讓民眾瞭解真相是什麼因為我也發現了就像剛才我跟這個部長在質詢的時候發現媒體的報導"},{"start":9034.113,"end":9052.009,"text":"和實際的情況是有出入的所以其實我是站在一個保護我們外交人員的立場希望他親自來說明之後可以把這些誤會好好的一個一個逐項的來解開那這樣子一來的話外界就不會再對駐美代表有任何的誤會了"},{"start":9052.97,"end":9071.583,"text":"那但是我特別要提醒一件事情就是說我們剛剛被列為密件這部分呢有很多費用其實在決算書裡面就可以看到了例如說呢這個電視機一台跟藍牙一台音響一台所需經費1115.93美金折合台幣36000多的這個支出傳票在我們現在的現行的決算書裡面就有"},{"start":9080.129,"end":9100.633,"text":"但是我們立法委員收到的卻是密件這點我也覺得是令人質疑的那我覺得最好的辦法就是請于大雷這個大使來到我們國會來做說明可以解釋清楚很多媒體對他可能所不公平的他可能很委屈的"},{"start":9101.053,"end":9110.313,"text":"甚至他太太是否有涉及霸凌或是請公務人員陪他去買私人用品等等的問題我覺得是最好的一個方式以上"},{"start":9112.98,"end":9134.361,"text":"其他會員 王定宇 趙偉基本上我想我們有一個共識就是這個事情要趕快釐清那剛才我們也我個人也建議外交部在法律以及外交的禮節禮儀以及私德這三個事情不要拖近數釐清但是 召回大使是大事情"},{"start":9137.451,"end":9159.681,"text":"國內有個傳聞我們應該是讓外交部去競速把它調查清楚然後把它釐清出來如果說有個爭議我們就把大使叫回來問一個爭議我們要把大使叫回來問這會影響到外交事務因為我們駐地在美國所以我會建議說我們是不是兩個提案可以把它整合一下我們要求外交部競速我說的競速我都希望是在今天以前"},{"start":9160.461,"end":9188.069,"text":"要把相關事情釐清因為坦白講我們政府很多單位每次有人事變動的時候就黑汗滿天飛那裡面涉及個人感受的那個別去感受但是法律這個東西要把它釐清得非常清楚所以外交部責無旁貸不要再讓這些scandal gossip去影響你們真正的外交工作也不是這樣就把大使叫回來所以我是不是跟我們同仁討論一下我們兩個提案其實"},{"start":9188.97,"end":9194.828,"text":"一方向一樣但是真的不適合尤其駐美這麼重要的處處就兩周內交回來我們是不是可以協調一下"},{"start":9197.447,"end":9219.179,"text":"這邊第二次發言因為呢我們可以看到就是說第一余大雷大使他在美國是有相關的發言所以他是有話想講的如果他沒有話想說的話我們今天不會做這個臨時提案那所以他到底有沒有意願他或許他是想要回來台灣做說明的這一點我們不知道可以去問問看"},{"start":9220.18,"end":9241.07,"text":"第二點我們所做的外交部的調查如果給我們的都是像目前這樣子的密件就算是調查出來了能夠解決人民的疑慮嗎我們裡面每一個東西都不能講啊咖啡機是多少錢床墊是多少錢都是被列為密件那在這樣子的情況裡面就算做了調查"},{"start":9242.23,"end":9271.87,"text":"那又如何呢那能夠向大眾解決說明該案的爭議嗎所以我覺得兩個案子共同的來並行討論沒有問題但是是不是我們整體來說我們不能用密件的方式來處理應該是用完全公開透明的方式以招公信讓大家知道雙方面的說法尤其是我們也要相關的問題請于大雷大使他能夠做書面的回覆"},{"start":9272.75,"end":9292.995,"text":"如果我可以同意剛剛王定宇趙偉所說的兩個禮拜請他回來確實姿勢體大以及呢可能在他的整個工作上面擔心會影響到他的流程可是既然他都開了記者會了那我們在臺灣也有很多問題想要問他那是否能夠以書面質詢的方式請他從美國"},{"start":9294.815,"end":9319.862,"text":"用書面質詢的方式回函過來我們公開的能夠讓所有的民眾都可以公開看所以如果是書面質詢的方式我能夠同意他不要回到台灣這個部分我在臨時提案部分我可以做修改但是如果說只是做了調查而到時候來的全部都是密件不好意思我覺得這個東西跟現行的狀況沒有兩樣最後又會不了了之"},{"start":9323.65,"end":9324.17,"text":"林楚茵委員"},{"start":9338.61,"end":9361.064,"text":"這個都是個人各自的解讀啦如果有人認為說他開記者會就表示有話想說那如果沒有開記者會是不是又落為說他在美國連回應都沒有所以要請他回來台灣所以他是不是要回來不是應該說他有沒有想說話有沒有公開開記者會而是以我們現在國家現行的狀況華府然後駐美這麼重要的一個位子那麼就把他找回來"},{"start":9361.544,"end":9375.061,"text":"第二個有關於密件的部分我也必須說我也有去申請資料我也看到了密件那麼我想每一位委員其實都可以申請資料如果外交部今天決定是密件那麼本來國防外交委員會就可以開秘密會議"},{"start":9376.081,"end":9388.354,"text":"所以是不是一定要于大雷回來首先第一個我還是保持比較客觀的講就是這麼重要的一個位置兩個禮拜裡面回來大家可能要多做思考尤其是面對現在的國際局勢的狀況那駐美非常重要"},{"start":9391.957,"end":9413.709,"text":"那至於說有關於是不是需要到書面詢答或什麼的外交部我認為最重要的是還是部裡面必須要給一個報告那至於是不是密不密那這個因為本來依據我們的機密的設定本來就是行政機關的主觀可以決定那麼這個部分的話我覺得就看外交部等一下怎麼來決定這件事情但是我還是認為就是"},{"start":9415.503,"end":9415.563,"text":"徐委員"},{"start":9433.168,"end":9461.261,"text":"第三次發言其實實際上這一次這個外交部給我們的這個密件我這邊就是有收到兩份嘛那先謝謝外交部其實你們第一個提供的速度算是快的而且項目算是清楚的這兩件事情要給予肯定可是呢你們其實在整個密件上面是沒有提供法源依據的這一點跟我們行政院文書處理上面的規定其實剛剛黃國昌有講到的是不與法不合的"},{"start":9461.681,"end":9487.35,"text":"因為一般來說像我們其他收到的機密文件底下會附一個說那他的法源依據是來自哪裡這個在修法過後之後是一定要附上的但是你們沒有附上好那沒有關係那基本上呢這個我當然也同意民進黨團提議的這個說這個外交部的要儘速調查是否符合相關採購程序嘛並向社會大眾說明那如果寫到社會大眾"},{"start":9488.47,"end":9489.291,"text":"其實兩個提案可以併到第二個提案"},{"start":9517.054,"end":9517.334,"text":"外交部部長林佳龍"},{"start":9535.538,"end":9549.946,"text":"沒有我覺得這邊還有一個地方那個趙薇我跟你們這裡是比較沒有共識的我是希望說我們詢問的對象不是外交部單純的調查而是我們詢問的問題是由于大雷大使他來做說明因為"},{"start":9551.067,"end":9563.378,"text":"很多東西他不只是牽涉到預算的問題他有霸凌的問題他有夫人是否有可能有這個做相關的其他霸凌的問題剛才在質詢的過程當中因為時間不夠所以其實實際上面我們是沒有說明完整的像在這裡我所收到的相關的這個基層的"},{"start":9573.046,"end":9573.666,"text":"行政調查有行政調查的程序"},{"start":9598.537,"end":9619.062,"text":"有行政調查程序所以我們本委員會提了一個臨時提議案那外交部也允諾儘速調查出結果如果說我們又要進入到由我們主動來調查由我們來決定怎麼調查方向我個人認為是這個應該剛剛提到的也不是調查不是調查我沒有說要調查所以我說的就是剛才我們諮詢的範圍"},{"start":9620.842,"end":9638.698,"text":"我們請外交部省佐把他納入他們的調查範圍內如果委員在口頭質詢沒有問到的其實今天還可以用書面來補上來那外交部當然就是看這些詢問的內容涉及公務的那趕快來做處理我覺得我們這個提案其實內容寫得算完整的兩邊意思都有涵蓋"},{"start":9639.258,"end":9641.059,"text":"我們先說我們第一個我們第一個第一個提案"},{"start":9671.141,"end":9685.417,"text":"就是以書面的部分書面我剛剛已經那個部長剛剛已經提到了本來其實說請於到時回應的部分對 儘速安排召回的部分我剛剛已經可以同意說那是接受書面質詢的部分"},{"start":9687.128,"end":9692.81,"text":"對,因為朝會有時候在時程上面還有美國其實一個重要的地點然後要回來可能也不是那麼容易那就這個部分因為如果禁訴釐清對於剛剛有很多委員其實都關切的因為美國畢竟是一個非常重要的對我們來說是重要的國家又要大選了"},{"start":9706.355,"end":9706.795,"text":"所以書面的方式對"},{"start":9736.309,"end":9738.632,"text":"這個提案就做文字修正然後這個部分是不是請外交部做一下文字修正我們可以在可以執行的範圍內那待會兒提供出來"},{"start":9769.119,"end":9771.583,"text":"現在宣讀第二案"},{"start":9773.483,"end":9794.072,"text":"臨時提案第二案有關媒體爆料與大雷大使一事,要求外交部進行調查是否符合政府相關採購程序,並向社會大眾說明,以釐清該案爭議。提案人委員林楚英、沈伯陽、王定宇、陳冠廷等委員這一個案子委員有沒有要說明的部分?都表達過"},{"start":9803.1,"end":9812.702,"text":"那第二案外交部這邊有沒有什麼其他的意見要表達那我們第二案就照照案通過"},{"start":9838.848,"end":9854.096,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9879.371,"end":9880.472,"text":"議事人員宣讀議案"},{"start":9884.875,"end":9908.596,"text":"第一案之文字修正倒數第四行修正為請外交部建樹安排于大雷大使以書面方式對此次事件與相關公費之用情形品項明細諸位人員是否遭不當對待與使喚等等事作出調查報告並於兩週內送交立法院外交及國防委員會宣讀完畢其餘照原提案"},{"start":9910.629,"end":9926.343,"text":"一個小問題這樣變成余大雷自己調查自己他調查我也不要相信我的意思是說應該是請余大雷就此事做報告回覆外交部由外交部完成調查報告給我們剛才這個文字的修改你看一下那個內容變成余大雷調查自己"},{"start":9927.643,"end":9948.801,"text":"余大雷兩週完成調查報告余大雷是被調查對象現在我們不是要調查就是說他自己本身的部分他是在做說明或回覆而已把他分開多加一個授詞余大雷在多少時間內回覆外交部由外交部完成調查報告還付我們這邊這個我沒有問題沒有意見這個我沒有意見由外交部回覆沒有意見"},{"start":9994.599,"end":10005.369,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10037.807,"end":10047.853,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10089.48,"end":10090.701,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10116.264,"end":10129.111,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10149.459,"end":10173.221,"text":"現在再重新宣讀修正之文字倒數第4行開始請外交部競速安排于大雷大使以書面方式﹐對此事事件與相關公費之用情形品項明細注用人員是否遭不當對待與使喚等事提出說明送交外交部"},{"start":10176.09,"end":10184.838,"text":"請外交部調查並提出報告與兩週內宋嬌立法院外交及國防委員會其餘同原始提案宣讀完畢"},{"start":10201.408,"end":10211.015,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10564.385,"end":10569.889,"text":"請大家回座我們現在繼續開會接下來請羅志強委員上台諮詢有請部長請部長部長請教一下你有公務車嗎有"},{"start":10590.578,"end":10617.817,"text":"你會用公務車在你的家人、太太、小孩去賞櫻花嗎?我們分隔兩地好像很難,在台中、台北如果有在一起的時候,你會不會讓你的公務車在你的家人或是爸爸媽媽、親戚朋友、太太、小孩,會不會在你賞櫻花?賞櫻花是沒有這個經驗會不會在他們去旅遊呢?"},{"start":10619.752,"end":10646.619,"text":"也沒有這個經驗沒有這個經驗那你覺得我們的余大磊我們的大使在美國用公務車在泰坦去賞櫻花你覺得這是我們外交的慣例嗎是我們所有大使都是這樣做的嗎因為他本身有講有嘛因為在華府當然櫻花季節是一個什麼樣的背景那我們也會進一步來了解所以我要問就是說這是不是慣例啊"},{"start":10647.619,"end":10658.303,"text":"應該不是慣例啦但是當然因為坐車齁其實在台灣已經比較有規範因為我們有時候就是會有一些非公務行程可能會有錢啦因為我還沒講到有錢啦我講的是家人"},{"start":10663.265,"end":10679.81,"text":"我有公務車過,在總統府的時候當副部長也有公務車但至少我的做法或是那時候馬政府的要求基本上我的家人是從沒上過那個公務車一定是以公務為原則那我要問,我對目前我們余大使他說難道你沒坐過公務車嗎?"},{"start":10679.81,"end":10680.03,"text":"順便再一下,這是公務"},{"start":10689.212,"end":10703.098,"text":"順便再一下,難道沒有做過這種事嗎?順便把家人再一下。你是問我還是問他?我說這余大雷啊,他反問記者啊。你沒有坐過公務車嗎?順便把你送回家。"},{"start":10705.305,"end":10731.545,"text":"意思是順便家人送回家裡沒什麼了不起啦其實當然政務官在一些判斷上他自己要決定也要負責任那我們當然每一個人就是要遵守一條規範所以基本上我剛剛整理一下剛剛部長其實意思是說這也其實不是我們住外人員的慣例嘛 對不對帶家人去賞櫻花然後順便在一下是慣例嗎不是不是嘛"},{"start":10732.446,"end":10755.026,"text":"那為什麼我們的余大使會違反慣例呢這個由他來說明啦因為在華府那他公布這個使用為什麼會有這個形成所以我坦白跟部長講剛剛雖然我們的外交國防委員會是認為說不需要召回大使但是我其實是有另外不同的看法當然尊重外交國防委員會的決定啦我舉個例子喔"},{"start":10756.918,"end":10780.677,"text":"應該我這樣講我不知道部長認不認同因為我至少我以前在總府工作外交工作大概有三個重要的支柱啦外交部長您嘛 對不對然後一個是國安會秘書長啦另外一個就是駐美大使以我們外交工作最重要的就是這個鐵三角我不知道你認不認同工作職份上這三個角色都很重要非常重要"},{"start":10781.624,"end":10805.336,"text":"所以因此駐美大使他的所謂的代表性跟公信力是非常重要的我現在問一下就是說請問部長您應該是賴清德總統主義的外交部長對不對當然是啊不然他怎麼會找是他任命你的嘛對不對而且他是新總統上任你是陪他一起上任的嘛對不對是對我們的國安會秘書長吳釗燮也是他這個"},{"start":10807.867,"end":10808.167,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10831.601,"end":10859.98,"text":"這大概半年嘛我直接跟部長預言啦因為就我最近觀察賴清德總統他的用人模式我覺得這件事情有人講說陰謀論啦當然有些部分看起來曾經部長也認為有些跟事實不符嘛報導裡面對不對有這個不正確的地方啦但是也有正確的地方嘛"},{"start":10861.17,"end":10882.895,"text":"對 就是數字有些有出入嘛 但是有些項目大家至少剛剛講賞櫻花跟看藍就正確了嘛 對不對不過我跟委員講齁 其實在駐外的大使齁 他的太太也兼助一部分外交的工作當然當然 沒關係但是這個行程啊 到底怎麼樣當然他有說明齁 不是公布的 但是是什麼情況因為我的預言還沒講完啦"},{"start":10884.826,"end":10905.079,"text":"我覺得我們的大使今天會有這麼大的風波在後面當然我覺得有一些人事運作的過程在裡面依照賴清哲總統用的話半年內我覺得這大使恐怕就未必能保住了但我這預言你自己就放在心裡我們就看看半年內他會不會駐美大使其實是總統"},{"start":10907.133,"end":10907.353,"text":"謝謝委員執教"},{"start":10933.092,"end":10933.332,"text":"請林部長請部長"},{"start":10956.766,"end":10956.846,"text":"台灣加入國際組織"},{"start":10971.846,"end":10998.578,"text":"那我們也知道其實這個我們江啟臣副院長其實在5月底的時候其實也率團代表韓國瑜院長那到日內瓦那參與這個或爭取參與WHA那其實這個水團裡面朝野的委員其實也在裡面那我們真的也給予這個這一團非常非常大的肯定因為也很多的成果"},{"start":10999.554,"end":11023.776,"text":"可是我們今天也看到在6月21號的時候其實北京公佈了這個新的分裂國家的規定那其中這分裂國家的規定裡面也把推動台灣加入國際組織也納入了所謂分裂國家的規定裡面甚至是列為所謂的懲戒這個台獨份子"},{"start":11025.519,"end":11050.4,"text":"當然我們後來看到這個臺辦其實也說了他其實針對的只是極少數的臺獨分子那如果把這幾個綜合資訊兜起來的時候我們就有點替我們的江啟臣副院長擔心了看起來江副院長可能現在是北京新的認知下面的極少數的臺獨分子"},{"start":11051.448,"end":11076.554,"text":"那可是接下來江副院長他還是肩負著很多國會外交的任務啊可是現在看到在新的分裂國家規定裡面有講到甚至要判死刑還可以缺席審判那部長我們有沒有對於我們江副院長接下來要扮演這麼多的國際外交的國會外交的任務上面有沒有什麼保護他的措施我們會"},{"start":11079.691,"end":11099.224,"text":"請外管對我們國人尤其到國外這個涉及到就是針對是不是會中共用這個所謂台獨幾少數台獨分子因為他現在做了一個定義選擇性的所以都有這個風險我們也都要做好這個預防跟因應"},{"start":11100.003,"end":11120.422,"text":"那我們是希望這個外交部其實針對接下來不管是國會外交上面其實尤其是當然我覺得像院長副院長動見觀瞻接下來他們還會再推動台灣很多加入國際組織的任務我相信我們的院長副院長也不會因此就這個放棄了這些工作可是這都是會被列入中共"},{"start":11121.483,"end":11133.95,"text":"幾少數臺獨分子甚至在懲戒的範疇裡面我們希望外交部能夠也可以給予他們跟國安單位可以給他們多一點的保護那接下來我是要問剛才其實有幾位委員其實有問到關於民主基金會的問題"},{"start":11135.97,"end":11162.64,"text":"我想其實民主基金會的問題我們從二月討論到現在其實現在大家都很清楚過去在黨一直說這個有沒有要卡韓院長的問題其實我們一直說從執政黨的角度從來都沒有所謂卡韓院長的選項那剛才有很多的委員問有沒有要卡什麼好像韓院長提出來的人選不然我們有要卡韓院長所提名的人選的意思嗎"},{"start":11163.325,"end":11173.907,"text":"沒有因為其實民主基金會是一個財團法人他有組織章程是所以都是一章程來辦事嘛就是尊重董事會對人事的決定"},{"start":11176.175,"end":11203.653,"text":"我認為因為你也是民主基金會的當然董事那你現在是副董事長那我要說我其實覺得我們當然沒有必要去卡任何潛在可能是執行長的人選我覺得這個我們態度是很清楚的但我想再一次的重申因為當然按照章程來說這個董事長會有提名權那現在董事長就是韓國瑜院長有提名權那當然董事會會有所謂的同意權是"},{"start":11204.654,"end":11220.273,"text":"那這個同意權裡面我覺得很關鍵的事情我還要再說一次關於民主基金會的人事問題是一個責任政治的問題它不是一個政黨之間怎麼分贓的問題所以我們很希望在民主基金會的議題上面我們是用朝野合作來去思考這個問題"},{"start":11221.514,"end":11244.142,"text":"就像這個國會議長其實是當然董事但我們也遵循慣例所以國會議長現在是董事長那這部分我們給予非常非常大的尊重跟尊敬但同時我覺得一個重點我一直在強調關於民主基金會問題重點是他這個執行長的人選能不能夠貫徹總統的外交策略方針的問題"},{"start":11245.282,"end":11274.281,"text":"而總統在我們國際上面也很清楚把台灣跟中國的定位其實我們也說得很清楚就是中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬我們真的不希望到時候其實執行長也要來備詢結果未來執行長在這邊備詢跟外交部長一起備詢的時候一個主張中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬另外一個主張九二共是一個中國"},{"start":11276.587,"end":11294.815,"text":"這兩個主張假如互相漢革其實絕對會是對我們外交政策非常非常大的影響部長同意嗎是因為齁其實所謂民主機會是廣義的惡鬼外交那就是有一鬼外交嘛一鬼外交就是政府尤其外交部的外交嘛阿如果惡鬼外交跟一鬼外交打架的話"},{"start":11295.635,"end":11311.923,"text":"那這不但沒有幫忙一軌外交而且雙頭馬車我沒有真的個人我是說如果如同剛剛委員所提的因為對於總統的外交政策因為他要負全責嘛那不支持的話那這個當然就委員上次也質詢過這個會是一個"},{"start":11314.964,"end":11319.427,"text":"涉及到董事會他在行使同意權的時候很關切的問題"},{"start":11344.984,"end":11345.625,"text":"現在這個中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不立足其實是得到台灣主流社會的認可的"},{"start":11356.345,"end":11376.562,"text":"所以任何一個要來擔任執行長的人選我認為他都要能夠認同跟貫徹這個原則我覺得這是我們唯一唯一的至少是我個人唯一的要求因為委員是董事嘛所以在董事會也曾經表達過意見所以當然因為有這樣的一個我不是董事我不是董事我不是董事對有其他董事但我說我作為一個國會議員在外交國防委員會的委員"},{"start":11377.623,"end":11390.775,"text":"我們覺得這是一個責任政治的問題因為這些所有的外交成果最後都還是總統要負責這是為什麼大家一直說執行長的人選要尊重總統最重要的原因這尊重總統不是因為只是總統比較大"},{"start":11392.017,"end":11407.875,"text":"是因為總統要為外交政策負責我覺得這個原則希望外交部包括部長我們這邊要把握我真的不樂見看到到時候兩位一個部長一個執行長到這邊備詢的時候結果講出互相打架的話那真的大家不知道該怎麼辦這部分還是希望部長我們能夠"},{"start":11409.301,"end":11433.04,"text":"做出這樣的要求 而且我覺得這也是一個合理的要求以上好不好 這部長這部分部長我接下來有幾個事情是想要來跟部長講其實部長今天有講到跨境鎮壓的問題那我們之前這個其實對跨境鎮壓問題其實也很關注那相關的報告還是要請部長提供給我們那另外是之前在你上任之前在這個"},{"start":11434.821,"end":11451.408,"text":"之前的質詢吳部長其實有答應過我們其實因為我們有旅居丹麥的國人被標記為中國公民的問題那我當時有請他給予說我們到底國人會有什麼生活的影響希望提交給我們報告但目前這個報告其實還沒有給我們第二個事情是"},{"start":11452.793,"end":11472.634,"text":"我在當時其實有請外交部去盤點哪些國家把我國拘留證標記為中國或無國籍的統計資料但我們現在收到外交部的資料但坦白說內容我們有點失望我們現在看到外交部提供的資料裡面只有12個國家將我國的拘留標記為中國或無國籍但就我們所知明明冰島"},{"start":11473.735,"end":11493.461,"text":"其實在2016的時候也把我們台灣人的居留證把它標記為中國籍可是在外交部上面的資料卻沒有看到冰島所以我們其實有一點懷疑現在這個外交部提供的盤點的資料是不是足夠的完整那在這一次我要跟部長報告我時間可能有限了"},{"start":11494.381,"end":11516.542,"text":"不然我們其實也要求外交部去盤點如果各國將我國的居留證標記為中國跟無國籍的時候可能對我們自己的國人會產生的生活影響可是我們看到很多都被外交部標記為無具體影響說實在我真的不相信我真的不相信假設別的國家把我們自己的僑民"},{"start":11518.531,"end":11543.488,"text":"標注為中國籍或者是無國籍對他的生活對他的情境毫無具體影響我真的不相信可是我們很多部分我們都看到你們說無具體影響所以我自己感覺外交部是不是對於這個問題這個嚴肅的問題不夠重視所以不只資料的盤點也包括這些相關的分析的資料都有未盡之處這部分還是希望"},{"start":11544.389,"end":11570.238,"text":"林部長是不是可以再回去再督導一下把這件事情弄清楚因為這時候有很多我們自己在其他國家遇到類似問題的人他都跟我們反應覺得好像我們部分的住處在協助他們的時候不夠積極因為隨著中國就是對這個所謂境外跨境的鎮壓還有對於所謂的城市台獨分子他的這種所謂長臂的管轄等等的"},{"start":11571.603,"end":11575.708,"text":"中國現在去壓迫這些國家把我們台灣人改成中國籍或無國籍"},{"start":11591.841,"end":11603.753,"text":"這其實是一件非常重要的大事而且其實非常嚴重的影響到我們國人的權益對 因為它有風險對 但外交部現在都跟我說外交部現在報告都說沒有聽說國人生活受影響"},{"start":11605.643,"end":11622.763,"text":"我們要了解這個趨勢因為有可能會因為中共的施壓我想這部分就再請林部長再回去再督導一下好不好我希望能夠改善好不好這部分謝謝這個部分之前也有提過外交部如果通常沒有能力作為這樣對我們外交也是一個很大的打擊"},{"start":11624.124,"end":11625.465,"text":"韓國瑜院長提名人選在蔡政府時期擔任過臺灣民主基金會副執行長"},{"start":11637.226,"end":11654.9,"text":"這個部分我想他的背景資料也可以提供給大家好接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前鄭正前委員不在請楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請麥玉珍麥玉珍麥玉珍委員不在請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在請陳培宇委員上台質詢好謝謝主席那有請部長請部長"},{"start":11673.617,"end":11692.589,"text":"委員 您過去擔任過無人鎖大使,負責數位新南向的業務,所以我相信部長您一定知道,在所謂的官方組織以外,其實有非常多的軟實力可以幫助台灣跟國際接軌,而且甚至是比較有可能突破所謂中國強大封鎖的武器,以上的論述您認同嗎?"},{"start":11692.589,"end":11692.609,"text":"認同"},{"start":11694.27,"end":11706.147,"text":"我今天就來跟部長分享兩個部分一個是我過去的工作專長就是文化出版在昨天有個好消息跟部長您分享首爾國際書展在昨天宣布台灣成為2025年首爾國際書展的主題國"},{"start":11710.453,"end":11735.218,"text":"主題國代表什麼意思?臺灣過往在全世界只有三次成為別的國家國際書展的主題國分別是07年在曼谷18年在曼谷12年在法國的安古蘭國際漫畫節也就是說臺灣一旦有機會成為所謂國際書展的主題國我們相對的文化外交這件事情的可能性就會變高以上部長您認同嗎?"},{"start":11736.358,"end":11741.019,"text":"非常認同那副總統前兩天才接見文化奧運國家隊,送他們出國副總統說經濟讓國家強大,文化讓國家偉大所以雖然書展的主管機關是文化部但是有沒有機會在明年首爾國際書展來到之前文化部有沒有機會跟外交部一起來討論我們如何讓首爾國際書展上的台灣主題國這件事情"},{"start":11760.643,"end":11776.796,"text":"他可以有文化面向更大的國家戰力來展示出來臺灣這個文化強﹑文化的部分部長你覺得有沒有機會外交部跟文化部來合作一定的因為我們總和外交部部都是外交部尤其書展這是一個文化軟實力"},{"start":11777.717,"end":11787.024,"text":"所以我們外交部還有外管會全力來參與好那這個部分我們也會請文化部積極的跟外交部一起來開會討論我們辦公室也會持續追蹤謝謝部長的承諾那接下來看一下運動外交的部分我屢次跟外交部討論運動外交是一個非常重要的部分連賴清德總統他接見劉伯鈞他也是這一屆的不分區立委"},{"start":11798.353,"end":11799.434,"text":"這兩天美國AIT在台協會才分享了一篇臉書就在昨天才分享"},{"start":11821.235,"end":11838.011,"text":"劉柏鈞他們找了五個有足球經驗的女孩．而且他們長期在台灣．把英文都準備好了．送到美國去跟八個不同國家的少女．透過運動交流．真正意義上達到了把運動作為國際語言．用運動做朋友好往下看"},{"start":11838.732,"end":11856.918,"text":"另外法國在台協會在去年的10月法國在台協會的經費一樣跟劉伯鈞合辦了國際女孩日的活動在這個活動上連我自己都有去參加玩了非常多有意義的活動跟遊戲而裡面要談的就是巴黎奧運所以在這個活動上孩子們認識了法國認識了奧運認識了女孩在運動上的意義這是兩個故事到第三個故事是2019年"},{"start":11864.5,"end":11881.418,"text":"在畫面的最左邊有一個穿紫色T恤這個是我們現在的內政部長劉詩芳部長當年澳大利亞國家足球隊到台灣來參加活動的時候甚至他們促成跟高雄的球隊做交流這個也是一種很棒的運動外交而且是落地在台灣接下來"},{"start":11882.259,"end":11903.138,"text":"接下來劉伯鈞他們的臺灣運動好事協會甚至在臺灣發起求聚求醫的捐募然後送到巴基斯坦去這也是一個很棒的運動外交實力為什麼要分享這麼多的案子我想要跟部長說的是還包含我手上有一本書我希望我可以送給部長但我不行因為我只有這一本"},{"start":11903.838,"end":11921.105,"text":"這本叫做是Title IX他們美國有一個法案叫TitleIX就是他們在國家相關預算上必須要讓男生跟女生的相關預算分配是平等的那這本書裡面介紹了九個非常重要的女性的故事其中有一個部長翻給你看是就是我們"},{"start":11924.436,"end":11940.612,"text":"臺灣的劉伯鈞被寫進美國國務院出版支持的計畫裡面出版品介紹劉伯鈞作為全世界第一個女性運動員裁判的故事部長分享了這麼多我想問一下部長我們外交部實質上還可以做更多哪些事情我們來看下一頁"},{"start":11941.713,"end":11962.44,"text":"因為我時間有限是不是可以拜託部長如果您也支持所謂的運動外交有沒有機會由外交部組織在3個月內成立運動外交推動小組這裡面的小組除了外交部的成員跟相關的運動學者專家還有更多的民間實務工作者可不可以一起跟外交部討論來具體匡列預算並且嚴寧相關運動外交執行方案謝謝委員寶貴的意見我們要研究但是說"},{"start":11969.025,"end":11993.065,"text":"因為總統的政見也有要提高運動體育的這個不管它的這個部會的這個還有預算那運動是強調公平競爭參與還有和平尤其像奧運就是它會有外交的效益但是如果用運動外交"},{"start":11994.994,"end":12013.047,"text":"有時候因為外交我們在國際上的處境比較特別有時候運動的效果是最大的外交但是如果用外交的方式去推運動也可能會有政治上就是正反的啦所以怎麼樣去組成這個是在外交部還是說行政院"},{"start":12013.507,"end":12027.663,"text":"還是跨部會我們來看研究一下聽起來就是部長您是支持但是你要提醒我的是另外一個事情如果用外交部的力量外交部的預算甚至是外交部表明就成立這個小組搞不好會受到更多的阻礙您是這個意思嗎"},{"start":12028.804,"end":12051.443,"text":"但是無論所大使我們也期待外交運動專長的人能夠再推動運動外交這也是一個方法但是這個小組怎麼樣籌組放在哪個層級然後哪些單位重點工作在哪裡我想我們外交部很願意來參與跟推動"},{"start":12051.783,"end":12063.661,"text":"那是不是我們辦公室之後可以積極的找外交部來討論因為我想我們剛剛分享了這麼多案例我們其實有非常多民間專家學者好朋友實務上的工作者他們也許可以提供更具體的經驗讓外交部作為參考"},{"start":12065.261,"end":12088.206,"text":"但我們可能要跟行政院在就是說整體因為他涉及到跨部會尤其是很多事要教育部文化部還有未來要升格的體育部我猜部長您要說是怎樣所以我們的職權怎麼樣能夠分工合作那好如果要提報給行政院會是不是有機會在一個月內也跟我們相關的報告就是跟院會那邊討論進度跟可能性"},{"start":12090.595,"end":12092.295,"text":"接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才鄭天才委員不在請邱志偉委員上台質詢"},{"start":12133.499,"end":12157.597,"text":"請外交部林部長請林部長是謝謝委員好部長辛苦了這個駐美代表大概是屬於這個部長部長級的大使因為這個對美關係是我國對外關係中重中之重核心所以這個駐美代表"},{"start":12158.88,"end":12186.562,"text":"人選他的人格特質他的能力他在華府的影響力都要得到大家的肯定所以我長期觀察住民代表人選有幾項特質就是第一個要低調個人事情要低調當然為了這個台美關係的一定要是全力去推動或者捍衛也好"},{"start":12187.898,"end":12215.571,"text":"那對私人的一定要都很低調做事情一定要很謹慎要很謹慎又洞見觀瞻不只是駐美大使或是駐美代表其他的這個住處的代表或是大使都要有這種特質所以我們在遴選這個外館的這個館長或者是大使的時候要特別注意他們的人格特質太高調不太適合"},{"start":12217.597,"end":12243.713,"text":"所以為什麼會有這些事件出來會有這些批評的聲音或質疑的聲音出來部長您的看法是怎麼樣每一個人都有他的風格當然對外交上面大家都知道外交官具備一些條件能夠代表國家但是對內怎麼去領導"},{"start":12247.601,"end":12271.722,"text":"讓同盟有士氣發揮團隊的戰力這個也是另外一個大使很重要的一個任務但我覺得納悶跟困惑是這個蕭副總統擔任駐美大使三年期間也沒什麼聽說這個關社要換新或者是要添購什麼物品"},{"start":12272.603,"end":12287.101,"text":"或者是這個公務車不當使用這種狀況甚至歷任的館長歷任的駐美代表好像也比較少這種聲音所以您了解的狀況是怎麼樣報告寫出來了嗎"},{"start":12289.912,"end":12302.21,"text":"我們初步都有就是不管電報啦或者是電話我們當然知道大概就是媒體報導的那個事情所以也做了一些說明可是因為這個"},{"start":12303.513,"end":12324.38,"text":"有可能是內部的同仁他有一些不滿的意見那把一些資料就是傳出去所以這個部分就涉及到外管內部的事情如果他說的是屬實那當然對這是沒有錯我們就事論事但是個人的部分我們當然誇大那當然這個你要以正視聽嘛"},{"start":12325.82,"end":12351.321,"text":"所以這個駐美代表的這個地位他的重要性這個你也知道是屬於部長級的所以大家這個會用放大鏡來檢視所以一言一行都非常重要不管是公理或者私生活都非常的重要所以這個外交系統一定要知人善任因為這個在華府市前線中的前線"},{"start":12353.294,"end":12380.021,"text":"有前線的指揮官前線的將領被質疑你要怎麼樣領兵作戰你要怎麼衝鋒陷陣你要怎麼領導這個相關的聯合國相關組織都是駐美代表主要的任務嘛如果你個人的問題會困擾你會形成你工作上的障礙會形成你推動台美關係"},{"start":12381.94,"end":12390.299,"text":"的一些阻礙的話可能這個部長你要思考一下這個重要性不能以私害公啊"},{"start":12392.244,"end":12414.557,"text":"台美關係應該是你個人的事都曉得台美關係才是這個國家的這個大政它是國家利益之所在你國家利益你沒有去思考你應該每天在思考不是說你的床墊怎麼樣你的沙發怎樣你要每天去思考說怎麼樣是分分秒秒時時刻刻日日月月去推動這個精進台美關係"},{"start":12417.389,"end":12433.82,"text":"所以我是看到這個報導或相關的評論是有點擔心那麼重要的位置前面前方的將領領導同意也好你說這個是內部問題就代表領導同意有問題你如果前軍作戰你這個指揮官出現這種領導同意的問題那你將士怎麼扶你"},{"start":12448.045,"end":12463.111,"text":"團隊的力量怎麼樣去發揮如果團隊的力量沒辦法發揮 損盡的就是國家利益你講的是台美關係外交圈大概也會去變成一個新聞 大家就會去討論啊這個reputation很重要啊市長您的評論怎麼樣當然"},{"start":12473.43,"end":12490.149,"text":"怎麼樣去提高同仁工作的士氣發揮更大的團隊的戰力這個是任何一個主管尤其是在外管的大使他當然負完全的領導跟他的責任"},{"start":12492.992,"end":12512.47,"text":"那我覺得在對外上面我們就是在華埔的我們的代表處確實是發揮很好的功能在台美關係不斷的在提升中但是因為內部的有一些怎麼樣去激勵同仁的士氣然後能夠讓這些有一些"},{"start":12514.183,"end":12529.588,"text":"不平的聲音也能夠妥善的來解決這也是領導者要做的你位置越高職位越重要你權力越大就要更謙卑就要像一個修行者一樣修行你知道嗎心要靜你如果心若這個不靜心若如果不正"},{"start":12545.125,"end":12561.014,"text":"協謀就入所以你位置越高權力越大你會更孤獨因為你就像一個修行者一樣每天砥礪自己你的所有的這個每天每天思念的思考的思慮的都是國家利益"},{"start":12562.987,"end":12592.554,"text":"是因為領導風格有一些雖然是願景領導有些行動領導有些是服務領導所以領導怎麼樣把幫忙的同仁都當作貴人來激勵士氣發揮這個更大的效果我對一大使沒有任何偏見我只是就事論事一個位置那麼重要就好像這個你組長是台美關係國家利益所以你要用修行者的態度去很謹慎的說每一句話做每一件事情"},{"start":12593.939,"end":12612.546,"text":"好謝謝謝謝邱委員謝謝謝謝部長接下來請張祺凱委員張祺凱張祺凱委員不在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請洪孟凱洪孟凱洪孟凱委員不在請蘇巧惠蘇巧惠蘇巧惠委員不在"},{"start":12613.226,"end":12641.272,"text":"我們今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由林益君委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者亦請相關單位已書面於兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束散會謝謝"},{"start":12642.892,"end":12643.072,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"16043","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16043","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db53741711f1205b9558d85e2d08749d24627684c85f64cd7b8f1e322508a8ab685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-27T08:30:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T12:35:00+08:00","duration":14653,"影片長度":"04:04:13","委員發言時間":"08:30:47 - 12:35:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1771.3153437500002,"end":1775.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1776.0234687500001,"end":1776.0572187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1776.0572187500002,"end":1782.8072187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1783.31346875,"end":1785.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1785.8109687500003,"end":1799.3109687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1809.5878437500003,"end":1833.4322187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1833.8878437500002,"end":1835.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1836.8240937500002,"end":1845.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1846.2740937500002,"end":1908.2559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1908.8297187500002,"end":1932.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1934.3109687500003,"end":1949.7178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1950.2072187500003,"end":1974.3722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1975.1147187500003,"end":1978.4728437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1978.7259687500002,"end":1985.2059687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1986.1509687500002,"end":1986.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1986.7584687500002,"end":1987.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1987.9059687500003,"end":1989.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1989.9647187500002,"end":1991.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1991.8209687500002,"end":1992.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1992.56346875,"end":2022.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2022.7528437500002,"end":2037.2315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2038.2272187500002,"end":2072.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2072.80409375,"end":2074.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2075.82471875,"end":2076.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2077.2928437500004,"end":2107.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2108.3428437500006,"end":2135.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2135.61284375,"end":2140.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2140.3378437500005,"end":2152.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2152.67346875,"end":2160.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2160.26721875,"end":2168.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2169.83534375,"end":2174.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2174.8640937500004,"end":2187.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2188.4990937500006,"end":2191.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2192.0934687500003,"end":2199.8728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2201.00346875,"end":2226.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2227.6659687500005,"end":2230.8553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2230.9734687500004,"end":2270.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2271.50721875,"end":2302.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2302.6922187500004,"end":2327.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2328.0722187500005,"end":2336.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2336.42534375,"end":2348.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2348.3897187500006,"end":2349.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2349.43596875,"end":2352.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2352.9459687500002,"end":2364.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2365.65284375,"end":2375.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2375.87909375,"end":2379.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2379.22034375,"end":2380.9922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2381.32971875,"end":2385.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2385.27846875,"end":2389.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2389.5478437500005,"end":2409.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2409.88221875,"end":2417.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2417.96534375,"end":2423.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2423.93909375,"end":2436.1397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2438.19846875,"end":2440.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2441.9784687500005,"end":2442.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2443.76721875,"end":2448.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2449.30221875,"end":2468.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2470.7165937500004,"end":2471.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2471.94846875,"end":2472.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2478.9684687500003,"end":2509.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2479.06971875,"end":2479.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2483.47409375,"end":2483.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2483.54159375,"end":2483.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2510.22096875,"end":2516.5828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2516.68409375,"end":2519.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2520.05909375,"end":2528.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2529.44159375,"end":2534.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2535.11159375,"end":2537.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2537.77784375,"end":2538.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2537.82846875,"end":2539.4990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2539.2965937500003,"end":2541.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2541.55784375,"end":2548.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2547.2615937500004,"end":2551.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2550.31596875,"end":2551.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2551.7334687500006,"end":2552.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2553.87659375,"end":2559.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2558.7703437500004,"end":2576.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2564.35596875,"end":2565.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2576.33721875,"end":2581.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2581.75409375,"end":2582.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2583.01971875,"end":2587.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2585.0447187500004,"end":2585.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2586.0740937500004,"end":2589.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2590.07346875,"end":2595.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2596.0809687500005,"end":2598.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2599.54034375,"end":2630.3878437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2630.77596875,"end":2633.4590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2633.5097187500005,"end":2640.7490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2641.0865937500002,"end":2642.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2642.9090937500005,"end":2654.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2654.68784375,"end":2674.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2675.1065937500007,"end":2676.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2677.35096875,"end":2678.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2678.61659375,"end":2679.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2680.13534375,"end":2681.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2681.73846875,"end":2685.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2686.1259687500005,"end":2696.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2696.9597187500003,"end":2735.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2735.9578437500004,"end":2741.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2741.96534375,"end":2744.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2744.9522187500006,"end":2751.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2751.53346875,"end":2755.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2755.7184687500003,"end":2757.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2758.04721875,"end":2762.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2763.12659375,"end":2766.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2766.5184687500005,"end":2774.8884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2775.58034375,"end":2775.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2775.9684687500003,"end":2776.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2776.8797187500004,"end":2777.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2777.9090937500005,"end":2778.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2778.8878437500007,"end":2779.6472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2780.89596875,"end":2781.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2781.43596875,"end":2782.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2783.3934687500005,"end":2791.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2791.30784375,"end":2806.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2807.2547187500004,"end":2822.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2823.45471875,"end":2842.6247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2844.59909375,"end":2866.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2867.9034687500007,"end":2909.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2910.0234687500006,"end":2923.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2923.8103437500004,"end":2930.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2930.83034375,"end":2938.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2938.8122187500003,"end":2963.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2964.04034375,"end":2971.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2971.8028437500006,"end":2980.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2981.3709687500004,"end":2989.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2990.1797187500006,"end":2999.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2999.07284375,"end":3002.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3002.61659375,"end":3005.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3006.6159687500003,"end":3029.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3031.25346875,"end":3042.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3042.4247187500005,"end":3094.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3093.7247187500006,"end":3105.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3106.0603437500004,"end":3139.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3138.34221875,"end":3143.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3141.7340937500003,"end":3143.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3143.40471875,"end":3143.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3143.75909375,"end":3150.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3143.8603437500005,"end":3147.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3147.80909375,"end":3150.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3150.81284375,"end":3150.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3151.35284375,"end":3152.0447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3153.34409375,"end":3153.7322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3155.7403437500006,"end":3159.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3167.6540937500004,"end":3169.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3167.80596875,"end":3168.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3170.0672187500004,"end":3170.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3176.6484687500006,"end":3177.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3177.1378437500007,"end":3180.3272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3180.6815937500005,"end":3188.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3188.8153437500005,"end":3190.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3191.43096875,"end":3213.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3204.9815937500007,"end":3205.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3206.3653437500006,"end":3207.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3213.1490937500002,"end":3213.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3213.3347187500003,"end":3216.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3213.36846875,"end":3213.4022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3217.3172187500004,"end":3224.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3224.89409375,"end":3232.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3229.46721875,"end":3230.5978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3232.3865937500004,"end":3233.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3234.17534375,"end":3239.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3235.20471875,"end":3235.3397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3235.3565937500007,"end":3235.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3238.1240937500006,"end":3240.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3240.08159375,"end":3241.4990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3241.51596875,"end":3260.1797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3259.0997187500006,"end":3262.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3262.25534375,"end":3266.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3262.32284375,"end":3262.3565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3264.17909375,"end":3265.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3266.0859687500006,"end":3266.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3266.1872187500003,"end":3270.6759687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3270.7772187500004,"end":3279.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3275.40096875,"end":3275.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3276.0253437500005,"end":3276.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3278.03346875,"end":3279.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3279.7040937500005,"end":3282.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3282.8934687500005,"end":3295.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3296.0222187500003,"end":3306.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3298.9753437500003,"end":3299.0934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3306.4003437500005,"end":3306.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3307.26096875,"end":3308.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3309.7078437500004,"end":3314.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3314.56784375,"end":3315.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3315.6647187500002,"end":3318.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3318.83721875,"end":3337.9903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3337.65284375,"end":3338.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3338.8678437500002,"end":3344.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3344.63909375,"end":3345.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3345.3309687500005,"end":3352.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3352.9247187500005,"end":3353.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3353.5828437500004,"end":3356.8565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3357.17721875,"end":3362.7628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3362.89784375,"end":3364.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3364.46721875,"end":3388.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3388.7840937500005,"end":3392.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3392.73284375,"end":3417.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3418.29846875,"end":3428.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3428.7272187500002,"end":3444.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3430.6678437500004,"end":3431.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3444.45471875,"end":3450.5128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3450.88409375,"end":3451.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3451.9472187500005,"end":3458.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3459.6590937500005,"end":3461.8865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3462.17346875,"end":3467.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3467.6072187500004,"end":3470.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3470.7628437500007,"end":3485.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3481.8834687500002,"end":3482.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3485.8828437500006,"end":3492.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3493.13909375,"end":3495.1472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3495.5184687500005,"end":3498.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3498.3028437500006,"end":3502.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3502.9434687500006,"end":3512.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3512.9840937500003,"end":3519.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3517.06784375,"end":3517.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3518.1647187500002,"end":3528.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3529.1334687500002,"end":3550.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3546.36284375,"end":3549.1472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3550.39596875,"end":3550.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3550.75034375,"end":3565.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3564.6553437500006,"end":3568.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3568.6378437500007,"end":3577.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3576.43409375,"end":3576.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3577.44659375,"end":3582.3065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3582.50909375,"end":3585.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3585.7997187500005,"end":3587.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3588.2128437500005,"end":3596.2115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3595.9922187500006,"end":3606.0665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3598.2872187500006,"end":3598.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3605.3240937500004,"end":3607.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3607.88909375,"end":3610.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3609.5597187500007,"end":3611.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3611.0447187500004,"end":3618.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3613.6603437500007,"end":3614.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3617.11971875,"end":3618.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3618.5709687500002,"end":3619.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3619.11096875,"end":3622.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3622.2497187500003,"end":3627.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3627.88596875,"end":3634.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3634.6022187500002,"end":3641.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3640.8290937500005,"end":3645.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3642.3478437500007,"end":3648.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3647.3259687500004,"end":3650.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3650.2115937500002,"end":3655.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3652.18596875,"end":3655.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3656.1853437500004,"end":3656.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3657.0459687500006,"end":3678.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3658.0753437500007,"end":3658.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3658.58159375,"end":3658.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3661.11284375,"end":3661.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3661.1297187500004,"end":3661.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3668.70659375,"end":3669.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3678.2578437500006,"end":3689.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3685.68284375,"end":3685.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3687.7584687500002,"end":3687.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3688.0790937500005,"end":3688.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3689.0240937500002,"end":3690.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3689.4122187500006,"end":3689.6990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3691.89284375,"end":3692.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3694.7784687500007,"end":3697.0565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3701.9840937500003,"end":3703.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3707.92409375,"end":3710.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3710.5397187500002,"end":3711.5353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3717.6103437500005,"end":3718.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3718.5722187500005,"end":3719.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3720.8165937500007,"end":3726.4190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3727.70159375,"end":3729.8953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3730.1990937500004,"end":3734.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3731.68409375,"end":3732.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3732.03846875,"end":3733.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3734.80596875,"end":3734.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3735.4303437500002,"end":3738.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3739.14284375,"end":3741.4209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3741.9609687500006,"end":3742.5515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3742.28159375,"end":3743.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3744.0197187500007,"end":3745.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3745.7072187500007,"end":3747.0065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3745.8590937500003,"end":3747.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3747.0234687500006,"end":3747.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3747.05721875,"end":3747.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3747.2090937500006,"end":3747.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3747.9347187500007,"end":3749.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3749.3184687500006,"end":3752.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3752.82846875,"end":3755.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3756.38909375,"end":3759.4434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3756.8447187500005,"end":3757.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3758.38034375,"end":3760.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3760.4053437500006,"end":3761.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3763.20659375,"end":3764.3034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3764.75909375,"end":3770.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3766.4972187500007,"end":3766.9190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3768.20159375,"end":3768.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3770.14221875,"end":3781.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3780.62159375,"end":3785.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3785.26221875,"end":3785.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3785.5997187500006,"end":3787.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3787.30409375,"end":3787.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3787.5234687500006,"end":3790.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3790.9659687500007,"end":3791.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3792.5690937500003,"end":3798.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3799.2009687500004,"end":3801.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3801.9853437500005,"end":3803.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3804.17909375,"end":3805.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3805.69784375,"end":3806.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3807.3009687500007,"end":3808.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3809.07284375,"end":3811.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3812.8359687500006,"end":3814.5740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3815.1140937500004,"end":3817.2909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3818.64096875,"end":3822.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3823.04534375,"end":3824.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3824.61471875,"end":3836.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3837.01784375,"end":3838.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3838.7390937500004,"end":3839.4647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3839.9034687500007,"end":3841.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3841.5234687500006,"end":3843.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3843.76784375,"end":3847.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3848.6278437500005,"end":3849.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3849.9440937500003,"end":3850.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3851.24346875,"end":3852.5934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3852.9140937500006,"end":3854.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3854.8378437500005,"end":3856.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3856.8797187500004,"end":3858.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3858.6347187500005,"end":3859.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3859.3434687500003,"end":3860.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3860.5078437500006,"end":3861.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3862.21221875,"end":3865.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3867.94971875,"end":3875.5772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3872.6747187500005,"end":3874.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3875.12159375,"end":3878.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3878.5303437500006,"end":3880.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3880.3190937500003,"end":3883.7109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3885.12846875,"end":3886.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3886.5290937500004,"end":3886.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3886.5459687500006,"end":3886.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3886.9678437500006,"end":3887.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3887.0353437500007,"end":3887.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3887.52471875,"end":3887.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3887.8790937500007,"end":3890.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3890.2584687500002,"end":3891.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3891.5240937500002,"end":3898.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3898.91534375,"end":3900.8728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3901.27784375,"end":3917.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3917.89971875,"end":3919.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3919.48596875,"end":3925.7634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3924.95346875,"end":3928.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3928.86846875,"end":3934.5215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3935.0447187500004,"end":3936.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3937.0359687500004,"end":3940.4953437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3942.7734687500006,"end":3944.1065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3944.4103437500007,"end":3944.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3944.47784375,"end":3944.7140937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3944.7140937500008,"end":3944.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3944.78159375,"end":3944.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3944.79846875,"end":3944.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3944.96721875,"end":3945.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3945.4903437500006,"end":3949.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3949.8103437500004,"end":3951.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3951.83534375,"end":3955.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3956.4928437500002,"end":3968.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3966.73596875,"end":3967.7315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3967.81596875,"end":3970.5665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3971.0897187500004,"end":3986.7159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3975.2578437500006,"end":3976.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3988.0828437500004,"end":3988.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3989.31471875,"end":3989.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3989.33159375,"end":3989.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3989.92221875,"end":3989.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3989.9728437500007,"end":4006.0040937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4004.3503437500003,"end":4010.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4006.1222187500007,"end":4006.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4010.96534375,"end":4011.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4011.03284375,"end":4011.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4011.25221875,"end":4018.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4011.7078437500004,"end":4012.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4016.80409375,"end":4017.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4017.95159375,"end":4017.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4018.00221875,"end":4018.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4018.01909375,"end":4018.0528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4018.0528437500006,"end":4020.6515937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4020.85409375,"end":4023.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4022.8115937500006,"end":4028.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4028.98784375,"end":4029.0215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4029.0215937500006,"end":4029.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4029.3084687500004,"end":4029.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4029.4940937500005,"end":4030.6247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4031.33346875,"end":4031.3503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4031.3503437500003,"end":4039.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4033.9490937500004,"end":4036.6828437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4036.6828437500008,"end":4036.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4037.0878437500005,"end":4038.2184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4039.9903437500006,"end":4040.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4044.29346875,"end":4045.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4045.62659375,"end":4046.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4046.2509687500005,"end":4047.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4047.71909375,"end":4050.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4051.0097187500005,"end":4052.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4053.7772187500004,"end":4056.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4057.13534375,"end":4057.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4057.2872187500006,"end":4057.3209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4057.3209687500002,"end":4059.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4057.8947187500007,"end":4062.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4060.98284375,"end":4062.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4062.97409375,"end":4075.9509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4076.64284375,"end":4079.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4080.8953437500004,"end":4081.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4083.6290937500007,"end":4085.8565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4083.9159687500005,"end":4085.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4085.8565937500007,"end":4085.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4085.9747187500006,"end":4089.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4088.2528437500005,"end":4091.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4092.4884687500007,"end":4097.753468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4098.0740937499995,"end":4099.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4100.08221875,"end":4111.017218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4111.624718749999,"end":4117.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4117.98659375,"end":4118.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4119.927218750001,"end":4123.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4124.50034375,"end":4125.782843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4126.170968750001,"end":4136.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4137.42659375,"end":4140.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4141.27409375,"end":4142.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4143.180968750001,"end":4152.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4149.47534375,"end":4161.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4160.140343749999,"end":4166.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4167.00846875,"end":4167.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4168.5272187499995,"end":4169.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4170.19784375,"end":4172.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4174.4334687499995,"end":4175.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4176.509093750001,"end":4177.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4177.97721875,"end":4178.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4178.905343750001,"end":4178.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4178.9559687500005,"end":4183.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4178.989718750001,"end":4180.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4183.27596875,"end":4185.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4186.78596875,"end":4190.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4189.84034375,"end":4193.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4194.43034375,"end":4195.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4195.88159375,"end":4199.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4200.30284375,"end":4205.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4205.2303437499995,"end":4208.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4209.044093750001,"end":4210.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4210.866593750001,"end":4211.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4211.760968750001,"end":4213.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4213.954718749999,"end":4218.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4218.882218750001,"end":4219.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4220.21534375,"end":4220.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4220.97471875,"end":4221.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4222.69596875,"end":4222.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4222.71284375,"end":4230.222218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4230.559718750001,"end":4231.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4230.71159375,"end":4233.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4233.968468749999,"end":4235.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4236.314093749999,"end":4237.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4238.06909375,"end":4240.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4241.12346875,"end":4242.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4243.33409375,"end":4245.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4245.25784375,"end":4247.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4247.97471875,"end":4250.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4251.029093749999,"end":4252.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4252.9697187500005,"end":4257.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4258.23471875,"end":4261.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4258.487843749999,"end":4260.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4261.18784375,"end":4265.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4263.21284375,"end":4263.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4263.3309687500005,"end":4264.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4264.073468750001,"end":4264.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4266.11534375,"end":4267.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4267.51596875,"end":4276.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4267.6678437499995,"end":4269.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4271.26221875,"end":4271.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4271.279093749999,"end":4271.565968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4271.565968749999,"end":4271.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4271.751593749999,"end":4272.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4272.122843749999,"end":4272.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4272.15659375,"end":4273.675343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4274.991593750001,"end":4276.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4276.5947187500005,"end":4278.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4278.19784375,"end":4281.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4279.75034375,"end":4280.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4281.52221875,"end":4288.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4290.06096875,"end":4291.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4291.309718750001,"end":4295.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4293.503468749999,"end":4293.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4293.53721875,"end":4294.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4295.78159375,"end":4297.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4297.97534375,"end":4300.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4300.08471875,"end":4301.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4301.97471875,"end":4302.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4302.00846875,"end":4302.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4302.075968749999,"end":4302.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4302.514718750001,"end":4302.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4302.700343750001,"end":4303.392218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4302.919718749999,"end":4305.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4305.974093750001,"end":4306.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4306.024718750001,"end":4306.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4306.9697187500005,"end":4312.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4312.33596875,"end":4312.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4312.97721875,"end":4317.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4313.1122187500005,"end":4314.175343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4315.154093749999,"end":4323.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4323.99659375,"end":4325.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4325.26221875,"end":4325.329718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4326.00471875,"end":4327.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4327.50659375,"end":4328.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4329.312218749999,"end":4333.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4332.315968749999,"end":4334.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4334.83034375,"end":4335.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4336.214093750001,"end":4339.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4339.36971875,"end":4340.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4342.356593750001,"end":4345.815968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4345.00596875,"end":4345.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4346.2040937500005,"end":4346.659718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4346.288468750001,"end":4347.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4348.85346875,"end":4349.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4349.96721875,"end":4350.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4352.41409375,"end":4357.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4355.670968750001,"end":4356.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4357.24034375,"end":4357.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4357.69596875,"end":4358.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4359.67034375,"end":4359.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4359.687218749999,"end":4359.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4359.7040937500005,"end":4361.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4360.075343750001,"end":4360.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4361.054093750001,"end":4368.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4368.411593750001,"end":4370.470343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4369.84596875,"end":4383.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4370.6053437499995,"end":4372.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4384.22346875,"end":4388.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4389.91034375,"end":4390.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4390.46721875,"end":4390.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4390.80471875,"end":4390.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4390.821593750001,"end":4391.513468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4390.872218750001,"end":4396.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4397.200343750001,"end":4398.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4398.5165937500005,"end":4398.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4399.24221875,"end":4400.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4401.132218750001,"end":4403.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4402.33034375,"end":4402.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4404.507218750001,"end":4405.300343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4405.300343749999,"end":4408.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4409.434718750001,"end":4410.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4411.22346875,"end":4413.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4413.56909375,"end":4413.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4413.82221875,"end":4414.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4414.85159375,"end":4414.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4414.93596875,"end":4414.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4414.9697187500005,"end":4436.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4434.15659375,"end":4446.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4446.5428437499995,"end":4450.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4446.745343750001,"end":4447.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4450.94721875,"end":4450.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4450.964093750001,"end":4451.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4452.14534375,"end":4453.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4453.967843750001,"end":4454.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4456.04346875,"end":4462.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4462.253468749999,"end":4464.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4464.44721875,"end":4466.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4475.02784375,"end":4478.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4479.465968750001,"end":4481.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4486.70534375,"end":4487.144093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4487.92034375,"end":4488.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4489.18596875,"end":4497.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4497.80909375,"end":4505.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4505.622218750001,"end":4535.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4536.604718750001,"end":4546.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4547.100968750001,"end":4560.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4560.61784375,"end":4577.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4578.57284375,"end":4597.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4597.94534375,"end":4598.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4600.071593750001,"end":4616.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4612.913468750001,"end":4614.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4614.364718750001,"end":4616.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4616.69346875,"end":4616.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4616.96346875,"end":4622.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4620.186593750001,"end":4647.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4647.270968750001,"end":4650.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4650.561593750001,"end":4656.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4655.59034375,"end":4656.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4656.9403437500005,"end":4658.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4657.27784375,"end":4657.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4657.69971875,"end":4669.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4670.001593749999,"end":4688.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4689.28971875,"end":4689.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4690.09971875,"end":4691.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4691.618468750001,"end":4693.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4693.8290937500005,"end":4710.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4711.345343749999,"end":4713.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4713.77534375,"end":4716.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4716.880343750001,"end":4719.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4720.50846875,"end":4739.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4740.083468750001,"end":4740.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4740.25221875,"end":4741.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4741.0115937499995,"end":4746.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4746.9178437499995,"end":4758.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4758.561593750001,"end":4759.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4759.962218750001,"end":4760.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4760.434718750001,"end":4763.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4761.05909375,"end":4761.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4763.11784375,"end":4765.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4765.7840937500005,"end":4769.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4769.614718750001,"end":4777.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4774.27221875,"end":4775.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4777.394093750001,"end":4786.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4788.514718750001,"end":4788.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4788.970343749999,"end":4789.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4789.71284375,"end":4790.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4790.235968749999,"end":4790.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4790.3709687499995,"end":4790.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4790.421593749999,"end":4790.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4790.4384687500005,"end":4790.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4790.8603437500005,"end":4790.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4790.96159375,"end":4798.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4799.432843750001,"end":4810.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4809.642218749999,"end":4813.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4811.515343749999,"end":4811.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4813.33784375,"end":4817.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4815.43034375,"end":4823.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4823.20971875,"end":4824.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4824.9647187499995,"end":4825.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4825.50471875,"end":4825.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4825.92659375,"end":4830.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4830.5165937500005,"end":4850.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4833.452843749999,"end":4833.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4846.04159375,"end":4847.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4850.2772187499995,"end":4857.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4850.46284375,"end":4850.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4852.97721875,"end":4853.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4857.14534375,"end":4891.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4866.25784375,"end":4867.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4867.0340937500005,"end":4867.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4867.304093750001,"end":4867.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4891.31721875,"end":4891.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4891.51971875,"end":4907.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4907.31471875,"end":4911.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4911.5165937500005,"end":4912.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4912.866593750001,"end":4917.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4917.43971875,"end":4931.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4922.55284375,"end":4922.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4930.41659375,"end":4935.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4932.795968750001,"end":4940.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4939.88346875,"end":4944.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4941.452843749999,"end":4942.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4943.5790937500005,"end":4951.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4950.44721875,"end":4950.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4951.74659375,"end":4956.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4956.2353437500005,"end":4974.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4964.0653437500005,"end":4964.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4973.86971875,"end":4974.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4974.94971875,"end":4988.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4988.9559687500005,"end":4992.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4992.14534375,"end":4992.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4992.921593749999,"end":4992.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4992.9384687500005,"end":4999.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4995.80721875,"end":4997.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4998.57471875,"end":4998.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4999.09784375,"end":5010.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4999.114718750001,"end":4999.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5006.03346875,"end":5008.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5010.06659375,"end":5021.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5021.45721875,"end":5031.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5025.28784375,"end":5025.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5025.30471875,"end":5025.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5025.3553437499995,"end":5025.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5030.60346875,"end":5031.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5031.63284375,"end":5041.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5039.44596875,"end":5043.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5043.34409375,"end":5043.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5043.3778437500005,"end":5044.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5044.170968750001,"end":5044.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5044.677218750001,"end":5086.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5080.823468750001,"end":5081.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5083.405343750001,"end":5083.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5085.1434687500005,"end":5085.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5085.29534375,"end":5085.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5086.88159375,"end":5089.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5090.12159375,"end":5090.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5091.53909375,"end":5092.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5098.03596875,"end":5100.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5112.700343750001,"end":5114.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5115.53534375,"end":5116.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5123.31471875,"end":5125.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5123.702843749999,"end":5123.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5126.16659375,"end":5129.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5130.182843750001,"end":5131.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5131.17846875,"end":5132.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5133.6590937500005,"end":5138.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5138.890343749999,"end":5143.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5143.85159375,"end":5145.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5145.555968750001,"end":5147.985968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5148.71159375,"end":5152.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5152.69409375,"end":5155.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5155.950968749999,"end":5157.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5158.499093750001,"end":5161.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5161.6884687500005,"end":5172.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5173.19721875,"end":5175.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5176.36971875,"end":5177.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5178.47909375,"end":5179.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5180.335343750001,"end":5182.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5183.1365937499995,"end":5185.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5186.17409375,"end":5188.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5188.6884687500005,"end":5189.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5190.25784375,"end":5192.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5193.34596875,"end":5200.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5200.905968749999,"end":5202.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5202.9647187499995,"end":5207.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5207.55471875,"end":5208.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5209.37721875,"end":5214.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5214.7772187499995,"end":5216.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5216.78534375,"end":5221.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5222.286593750001,"end":5223.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5224.395968750001,"end":5227.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5228.49659375,"end":5230.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5230.74096875,"end":5235.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5236.495343750001,"end":5240.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5242.064093749999,"end":5243.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5245.0340937500005,"end":5245.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5246.856593750001,"end":5248.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5248.32471875,"end":5248.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5249.11784375,"end":5250.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5250.974093750001,"end":5252.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5252.96534375,"end":5254.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5254.484093749999,"end":5256.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5257.55534375,"end":5258.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5259.225968750001,"end":5259.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5260.79534375,"end":5261.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5262.415343750001,"end":5265.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5265.99284375,"end":5268.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5269.41846875,"end":5269.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5269.452218750001,"end":5270.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5271.47721875,"end":5286.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5286.512843750001,"end":5292.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5293.296593749999,"end":5295.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5296.300343750001,"end":5297.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5298.561593750001,"end":5300.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5300.92409375,"end":5303.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5303.995343750001,"end":5305.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5305.952843749999,"end":5309.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5310.20534375,"end":5310.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5310.81284375,"end":5313.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5314.6434687500005,"end":5317.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5317.24221875,"end":5318.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5319.267218749999,"end":5320.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5321.64659375,"end":5322.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5323.6209687499995,"end":5326.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5328.177218750001,"end":5328.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5328.61596875,"end":5332.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5332.952843749999,"end":5334.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5334.4715937500005,"end":5337.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5338.55534375,"end":5339.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5339.83784375,"end":5340.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5341.52534375,"end":5342.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5342.82471875,"end":5344.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5345.052218750001,"end":5348.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5349.034718750001,"end":5352.173468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5352.52784375,"end":5354.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5354.670968750001,"end":5357.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5358.315968750001,"end":5359.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5360.2059687500005,"end":5361.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5362.062218749999,"end":5365.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5366.2978437500005,"end":5374.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5375.17409375,"end":5376.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5377.23284375,"end":5379.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5379.595343749999,"end":5381.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5382.37971875,"end":5383.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5384.657843749999,"end":5389.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5390.429093750001,"end":5391.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5393.280968749999,"end":5394.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5395.440968750001,"end":5396.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5397.56721875,"end":5397.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5398.343468749999,"end":5399.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5399.423468749999,"end":5400.689093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5400.975968750001,"end":5404.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5405.0428437499995,"end":5406.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5406.932843750001,"end":5407.202843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5407.6415937500005,"end":5408.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5409.29534375,"end":5412.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5413.530968749999,"end":5415.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5415.927218750001,"end":5417.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5418.25596875,"end":5421.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5421.86721875,"end":5422.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5424.179093750001,"end":5424.735968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5425.05659375,"end":5425.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5427.30096875,"end":5428.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5429.68034375,"end":5432.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5433.7303437499995,"end":5434.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5434.253468750001,"end":5434.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5435.147843750001,"end":5436.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5436.34596875,"end":5436.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5438.0165937500005,"end":5439.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5439.90659375,"end":5443.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5440.5478437500005,"end":5440.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5442.6572187500005,"end":5443.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5444.243468750001,"end":5446.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5444.86784375,"end":5448.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5448.86721875,"end":5449.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5449.170968750001,"end":5449.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5449.18784375,"end":5449.204718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5449.491593750001,"end":5449.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5450.40284375,"end":5452.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5450.72346875,"end":5454.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5454.72284375,"end":5458.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5457.692843750001,"end":5458.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5458.6209687499995,"end":5458.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5459.144093750001,"end":5461.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5461.405343750001,"end":5472.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5462.13096875,"end":5463.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5472.91409375,"end":5472.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5473.28534375,"end":5473.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5473.33596875,"end":5473.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5473.825343750001,"end":5473.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5474.2303437499995,"end":5480.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5480.9803437499995,"end":5490.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5489.45159375,"end":5491.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5491.45971875,"end":5494.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5495.17221875,"end":5497.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5498.007218750001,"end":5500.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5501.010968750001,"end":5502.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5502.58034375,"end":5503.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5504.68971875,"end":5505.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5505.61784375,"end":5507.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5507.575343750001,"end":5508.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5508.233468750001,"end":5509.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5510.12346875,"end":5517.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5517.9872187500005,"end":5519.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5519.72534375,"end":5520.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5521.51409375,"end":5521.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5522.3915937500005,"end":5523.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5524.163468750001,"end":5525.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5526.458468750001,"end":5528.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5528.432843750001,"end":5528.517218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5528.517218749999,"end":5528.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5528.60159375,"end":5530.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5528.753468750001,"end":5533.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5536.38096875,"end":5547.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5539.0809687500005,"end":5541.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5541.47721875,"end":5544.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5548.46346875,"end":5550.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5551.46721875,"end":5552.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5553.171593749999,"end":5554.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5554.909718750001,"end":5557.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5557.47471875,"end":5557.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5558.45346875,"end":5560.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5560.579718749999,"end":5560.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5561.11971875,"end":5561.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5562.317843750001,"end":5565.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5566.31721875,"end":5566.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5567.194718750001,"end":5569.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5569.97909375,"end":5571.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5571.649718750001,"end":5573.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5573.624093750001,"end":5574.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5574.95721875,"end":5575.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5575.93596875,"end":5579.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5579.63159375,"end":5591.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5591.292218750001,"end":5606.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5600.573468750001,"end":5602.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5604.11721875,"end":5604.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5606.192843750001,"end":5615.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5611.356593750001,"end":5613.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5616.62159375,"end":5617.110968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5617.870343750001,"end":5618.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5619.11909375,"end":5621.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5621.3465937500005,"end":5629.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5627.82659375,"end":5633.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5630.425343750001,"end":5630.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5631.505343750001,"end":5632.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5632.7372187500005,"end":5633.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5633.39534375,"end":5634.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5635.673468749999,"end":5637.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5638.154093749999,"end":5638.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5639.40284375,"end":5640.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5641.579718749999,"end":5642.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5643.4022187499995,"end":5644.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5645.477843750001,"end":5645.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5645.91659375,"end":5646.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5647.2665937500005,"end":5647.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5647.94159375,"end":5650.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5650.4559687500005,"end":5655.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5655.653468750001,"end":5667.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5669.895968750001,"end":5670.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5681.87721875,"end":5684.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5688.47534375,"end":5689.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5689.31909375,"end":5690.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5691.124718749999,"end":5691.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5697.09846875,"end":5697.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5697.503468750001,"end":5697.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5697.554093750001,"end":5697.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5698.1278437500005,"end":5701.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5701.55346875,"end":5707.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5707.965968750001,"end":5708.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5708.26971875,"end":5715.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5715.357218749999,"end":5718.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5719.18784375,"end":5725.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5726.005343750001,"end":5739.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5738.7459687499995,"end":5740.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5740.585343750001,"end":5742.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5742.01971875,"end":5742.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5742.779093749999,"end":5746.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5747.53784375,"end":5748.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5749.32659375,"end":5777.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5777.6259687500005,"end":5792.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5789.607218749999,"end":5789.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5789.995343750001,"end":5790.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5792.290343750001,"end":5797.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5798.247218750001,"end":5802.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5803.022843750001,"end":5820.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5804.9803437499995,"end":5805.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5820.94409375,"end":5822.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5822.7665937500005,"end":5825.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5822.91846875,"end":5823.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5825.331593750001,"end":5829.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5829.61784375,"end":5830.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5830.93409375,"end":5831.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5831.25471875,"end":5836.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5834.984093749999,"end":5837.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5836.80659375,"end":5839.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5839.27034375,"end":5839.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5839.47284375,"end":5853.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5839.55721875,"end":5839.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5848.88909375,"end":5849.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5853.68159375,"end":5854.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5854.019093750001,"end":5858.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5857.917218750001,"end":5858.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5858.423468750001,"end":5860.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5860.80284375,"end":5861.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5861.20784375,"end":5861.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5862.507218750001,"end":5863.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5863.73909375,"end":5889.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5867.53596875,"end":5867.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5874.62346875,"end":5874.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5875.28159375,"end":5875.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5879.854718750001,"end":5879.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5879.888468749999,"end":5880.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5889.456593750001,"end":5889.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5889.557843750001,"end":5889.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5890.28346875,"end":5895.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5895.9872187500005,"end":5906.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5896.98284375,"end":5897.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5905.15034375,"end":5910.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5906.905343750001,"end":5908.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5909.08221875,"end":5929.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5929.028468750001,"end":5932.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5933.145968750001,"end":5936.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5933.669093750001,"end":5934.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5935.592843750001,"end":5936.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5937.465968750001,"end":5937.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5938.157843750001,"end":5940.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5940.2840937500005,"end":5941.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5942.055968750001,"end":5942.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5942.140343749999,"end":5942.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5942.562218749999,"end":5943.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5944.18221875,"end":5944.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5945.31284375,"end":5945.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5946.15659375,"end":5948.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5948.940968750001,"end":5952.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5949.464093750001,"end":5950.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5952.130343750001,"end":5952.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5952.61971875,"end":5955.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5955.75846875,"end":5958.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5959.589093750001,"end":5962.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5962.677218750001,"end":5963.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5964.280343750001,"end":5964.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5965.579718750001,"end":5967.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5966.575343750001,"end":5968.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5967.25034375,"end":5968.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5968.33034375,"end":5969.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5970.43971875,"end":5974.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5974.304093750001,"end":5976.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5976.7509687500005,"end":5980.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5980.9022187499995,"end":5984.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5984.6990937499995,"end":5992.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5991.7528437500005,"end":5993.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5994.48659375,"end":5996.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5996.96721875,"end":6002.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5997.33846875,"end":5998.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6002.991593750001,"end":6005.235968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6005.472218750001,"end":6006.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6006.82221875,"end":6007.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6007.17659375,"end":6007.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6007.767218750001,"end":6008.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6008.69534375,"end":6009.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6009.80909375,"end":6010.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6010.8553437499995,"end":6012.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6012.49221875,"end":6012.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6012.880343750001,"end":6017.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6013.31909375,"end":6013.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6016.60971875,"end":6022.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6022.448468750001,"end":6025.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6026.245343750001,"end":6030.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6030.936593750001,"end":6033.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6033.90659375,"end":6043.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6044.74034375,"end":6047.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6047.59221875,"end":6061.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6061.64909375,"end":6061.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6061.69971875,"end":6062.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6061.868468750001,"end":6063.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6064.3153437500005,"end":6065.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6064.88909375,"end":6069.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6070.204718750001,"end":6072.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6072.9384687500005,"end":6074.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6075.8240937499995,"end":6076.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6077.17409375,"end":6078.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6078.405968749999,"end":6079.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6080.16096875,"end":6082.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6083.097218750001,"end":6086.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6086.235968750001,"end":6087.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6087.43409375,"end":6088.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6088.69971875,"end":6089.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6090.555968750001,"end":6092.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6093.357218749999,"end":6094.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6093.91409375,"end":6094.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6094.487843750001,"end":6095.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6095.702843749999,"end":6096.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6096.934718750001,"end":6097.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6098.45346875,"end":6099.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6100.1747187500005,"end":6100.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6100.19159375,"end":6100.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6101.288468750001,"end":6104.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6104.9334687499995,"end":6104.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6104.96721875,"end":6105.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6105.28784375,"end":6108.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6107.97096875,"end":6113.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6110.0634687500005,"end":6111.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6113.21909375,"end":6114.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6113.97846875,"end":6115.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6114.58596875,"end":6118.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6118.214093750001,"end":6120.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6120.6103437500005,"end":6121.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6121.302218750001,"end":6121.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6121.50471875,"end":6121.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6121.65659375,"end":6121.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6121.724093750001,"end":6122.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6123.05721875,"end":6124.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6124.575968749999,"end":6125.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6125.45346875,"end":6125.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6125.82471875,"end":6125.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6125.97659375,"end":6127.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6128.609093749999,"end":6130.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6131.1572187500005,"end":6131.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6132.25409375,"end":6134.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6135.47721875,"end":6141.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6141.9403437500005,"end":6146.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6146.83409375,"end":6151.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6152.40284375,"end":6152.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6152.97659375,"end":6153.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6153.38159375,"end":6153.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6153.415343750001,"end":6155.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6156.19971875,"end":6158.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6158.96721875,"end":6160.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6161.54909375,"end":6164.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6165.21096875,"end":6165.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6166.257218750001,"end":6173.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6166.27409375,"end":6166.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6166.965968750001,"end":6167.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6174.087218750001,"end":6177.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6178.626593750001,"end":6182.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6182.77784375,"end":6185.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6185.41034375,"end":6187.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6187.2665937500005,"end":6189.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6190.354718750001,"end":6192.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6192.6834687499995,"end":6195.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6195.61971875,"end":6197.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6197.526593750001,"end":6197.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6198.083468750001,"end":6199.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6200.378468750001,"end":6204.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6205.13721875,"end":6207.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6207.82034375,"end":6210.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6210.62159375,"end":6215.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6215.565968750001,"end":6216.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6216.62909375,"end":6220.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6220.98284375,"end":6223.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6223.61534375,"end":6224.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6224.897843750001,"end":6228.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6229.50471875,"end":6230.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6230.87159375,"end":6232.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6232.79534375,"end":6233.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6233.655968749999,"end":6234.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6234.98909375,"end":6235.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6236.35596875,"end":6237.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6237.67221875,"end":6239.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6240.94596875,"end":6244.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6244.84409375,"end":6247.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6247.5272187499995,"end":6248.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6250.61534375,"end":6252.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6253.247843749999,"end":6256.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6256.57221875,"end":6257.517218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6258.411593750001,"end":6265.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6264.67221875,"end":6267.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6265.83659375,"end":6273.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6273.497843749999,"end":6276.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6275.573468750001,"end":6275.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6276.14721875,"end":6276.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6277.75034375,"end":6281.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6281.31096875,"end":6281.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6281.327843749999,"end":6283.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6281.3447187500005,"end":6281.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6283.04909375,"end":6305.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6285.040343750001,"end":6285.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6287.622218750001,"end":6287.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6299.11409375,"end":6299.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6305.59409375,"end":6306.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6307.0115937499995,"end":6310.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6310.724093750001,"end":6311.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6311.2978437500005,"end":6313.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6313.84596875,"end":6313.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6313.964093750001,"end":6314.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6314.014718750001,"end":6314.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6314.08221875,"end":6322.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6322.65471875,"end":6324.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6324.645968750001,"end":6345.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6327.85221875,"end":6328.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6328.79721875,"end":6328.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6337.0322187500005,"end":6337.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6337.217843750001,"end":6337.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6343.630343750001,"end":6343.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6343.64721875,"end":6343.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6345.67221875,"end":6348.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6347.764718750001,"end":6349.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6357.180968750001,"end":6359.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6367.440968750001,"end":6369.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6370.309718750001,"end":6371.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6377.39721875,"end":6377.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6378.24096875,"end":6379.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6379.32096875,"end":6394.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6395.234093749999,"end":6395.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6396.364718750001,"end":6396.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6396.972218750001,"end":6397.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6397.42784375,"end":6397.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6399.67221875,"end":6418.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6416.86784375,"end":6419.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6419.804093750001,"end":6431.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6431.329718750001,"end":6435.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6433.92846875,"end":6435.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6435.24471875,"end":6435.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6435.2615937499995,"end":6435.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6435.48096875,"end":6435.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6436.1053437499995,"end":6443.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6443.49659375,"end":6443.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6443.901593750001,"end":6443.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6444.10409375,"end":6452.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6452.49096875,"end":6452.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6452.8622187500005,"end":6466.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6467.30721875,"end":6470.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6470.5809687500005,"end":6491.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6492.0965937500005,"end":6493.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6493.345343750001,"end":6503.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6502.05284375,"end":6503.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6503.79096875,"end":6515.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6515.282843750001,"end":6522.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6521.054093750001,"end":6521.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6521.3915937500005,"end":6521.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6523.0790937500005,"end":6545.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6545.809718750001,"end":6551.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6551.46284375,"end":6551.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6551.73284375,"end":6551.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6551.749718749999,"end":6556.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6551.7665937500005,"end":6551.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6556.55909375,"end":6558.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6556.79534375,"end":6558.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6558.85409375,"end":6567.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6561.216593749999,"end":6561.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6564.72659375,"end":6565.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6566.1103437500005,"end":6566.515343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6567.645968750001,"end":6588.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6572.30346875,"end":6572.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6589.060343749999,"end":6592.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6589.161593750001,"end":6589.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6590.528468750001,"end":6590.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6592.33409375,"end":6592.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6592.958468750001,"end":6593.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6594.00471875,"end":6598.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6598.392218750001,"end":6600.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6600.38346875,"end":6602.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6603.1678437499995,"end":6606.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6606.458468750001,"end":6611.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6611.571593750001,"end":6614.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6614.389718750001,"end":6615.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6616.36409375,"end":6621.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6622.13534375,"end":6623.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6623.77221875,"end":6629.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6629.07096875,"end":6629.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6629.27346875,"end":6633.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6634.200968749999,"end":6643.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6640.64721875,"end":6653.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6646.70534375,"end":6647.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6654.045968750001,"end":6655.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6655.09221875,"end":6655.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6655.46346875,"end":6657.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6657.20159375,"end":6661.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6662.196593750001,"end":6668.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6668.30534375,"end":6669.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6669.8240937499995,"end":6670.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6671.02221875,"end":6672.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6672.96284375,"end":6675.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6675.05534375,"end":6679.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6679.155968749999,"end":6679.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6679.27409375,"end":6679.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6679.544093750001,"end":6686.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6680.11784375,"end":6680.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6683.93159375,"end":6685.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6685.75409375,"end":6686.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6686.3447187500005,"end":6686.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6686.49659375,"end":6692.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6692.26784375,"end":6693.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6693.29721875,"end":6695.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6695.8622187500005,"end":6705.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6705.885968750001,"end":6706.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6706.1728437500005,"end":6710.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6706.18971875,"end":6706.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6711.032843750001,"end":6712.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6712.8553437499995,"end":6717.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6717.29346875,"end":6721.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6722.524718750001,"end":6736.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6729.510968750001,"end":6731.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6733.29096875,"end":6733.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6736.632218750001,"end":6737.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6738.57284375,"end":6751.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6752.27534375,"end":6754.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6754.99221875,"end":6755.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6755.73471875,"end":6756.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6755.852843750001,"end":6768.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6769.50471875,"end":6779.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6772.964093750001,"end":6773.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6779.477843750001,"end":6779.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6779.747843749999,"end":6780.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6780.54096875,"end":6780.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6780.557843750001,"end":6795.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6795.15471875,"end":6795.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6795.458468750001,"end":6812.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6812.63721875,"end":6812.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6812.9072187500005,"end":6817.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6818.425343750001,"end":6826.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6826.440968750001,"end":6826.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6826.7615937499995,"end":6834.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6834.929093750001,"end":6835.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6836.616593750001,"end":6861.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6861.642218750001,"end":6861.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6862.350968750001,"end":6865.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6865.60784375,"end":6881.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6880.84596875,"end":6929.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6883.107218749999,"end":6883.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6891.76409375,"end":6891.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6902.91846875,"end":6903.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6917.802218750001,"end":6917.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6917.97096875,"end":6918.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6918.038468750001,"end":6918.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6918.42659375,"end":6918.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6928.8553437499995,"end":6929.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6929.294093750001,"end":6932.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6932.010968750001,"end":6933.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6934.542218750001,"end":6944.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6945.409718750001,"end":6959.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6959.58471875,"end":6966.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6962.436593750001,"end":6963.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6966.43596875,"end":6968.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6967.347218750001,"end":6994.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6970.23284375,"end":6970.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6993.95909375,"end":6997.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6997.9247187500005,"end":7006.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7006.46346875,"end":7010.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7010.614718750001,"end":7010.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7010.96909375,"end":7014.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7015.00221875,"end":7016.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7016.87534375,"end":7017.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7017.685343749999,"end":7017.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7018.5965937500005,"end":7019.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7021.482218749999,"end":7028.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7028.991593750001,"end":7030.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7035.01596875,"end":7036.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7040.39909375,"end":7041.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7043.92596875,"end":7044.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7043.993468750001,"end":7044.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7044.921593750001,"end":7045.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7045.950968749999,"end":7081.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7079.194718750001,"end":7081.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7081.50659375,"end":7081.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7081.5740937499995,"end":7082.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7082.73846875,"end":7108.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7083.599093750001,"end":7083.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7091.7665937500005,"end":7092.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7092.036593750001,"end":7092.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7101.233468750001,"end":7101.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7101.2840937500005,"end":7101.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7103.714093750001,"end":7104.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7108.50659375,"end":7109.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7108.74284375,"end":7123.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7113.99096875,"end":7114.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7119.30659375,"end":7119.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7122.327218750001,"end":7122.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7123.66034375,"end":7127.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7126.47846875,"end":7128.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7127.91284375,"end":7141.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7138.679093750001,"end":7138.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7140.29909375,"end":7140.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7141.24409375,"end":7142.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7143.35346875,"end":7166.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7150.019093750001,"end":7150.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7153.03971875,"end":7153.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7153.19159375,"end":7153.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7157.83221875,"end":7157.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7157.96721875,"end":7158.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7160.937218750001,"end":7161.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7167.58596875,"end":7174.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7174.18409375,"end":7174.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7174.352843750001,"end":7179.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7180.022843750001,"end":7183.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7183.78596875,"end":7201.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7200.374093750001,"end":7209.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7210.2459687499995,"end":7254.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7227.6103437500005,"end":7228.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7228.97721875,"end":7229.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7254.559718750001,"end":7267.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7268.093468750001,"end":7270.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7268.12721875,"end":7268.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7269.544718749999,"end":7276.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7276.66596875,"end":7285.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7283.92221875,"end":7292.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7289.794718749999,"end":7290.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7292.747843749999,"end":7343.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7295.329718750001,"end":7295.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7295.380343750001,"end":7295.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7295.515343750001,"end":7295.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7334.96909375,"end":7335.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7335.323468750001,"end":7335.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7338.884093750001,"end":7339.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7343.845343750001,"end":7344.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7344.840968750001,"end":7345.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7345.14471875,"end":7362.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7363.52159375,"end":7367.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7367.470343750001,"end":7369.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7369.444718750001,"end":7382.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7381.1053437499995,"end":7389.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7389.39096875,"end":7406.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7402.65471875,"end":7405.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7405.439093750001,"end":7406.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7406.68784375,"end":7407.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7407.278468750001,"end":7407.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7407.61596875,"end":7410.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7409.87721875,"end":7410.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7411.24409375,"end":7420.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7415.22659375,"end":7415.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7417.909718750001,"end":7430.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7426.70159375,"end":7429.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7430.0428437499995,"end":7430.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7430.717843750001,"end":7440.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7436.0165937500005,"end":7436.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7437.231593750001,"end":7437.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7440.555968750001,"end":7440.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7441.247843749999,"end":7442.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7442.73284375,"end":7447.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7447.66034375,"end":7448.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7448.97659375,"end":7452.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7452.53721875,"end":7464.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7457.481593750001,"end":7458.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7465.19346875,"end":7467.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7467.72471875,"end":7502.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7472.17971875,"end":7472.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7484.58284375,"end":7484.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7484.616593750001,"end":7485.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7488.37971875,"end":7490.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7491.0965937500005,"end":7491.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7502.82471875,"end":7505.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7504.47846875,"end":7508.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7507.65096875,"end":7508.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7508.68034375,"end":7509.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7510.350968750001,"end":7510.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7510.36784375,"end":7511.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7511.667218750001,"end":7511.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7512.6122187500005,"end":7515.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7514.87346875,"end":7522.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7522.97346875,"end":7525.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7524.71159375,"end":7524.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7525.0322187500005,"end":7526.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7526.12909375,"end":7526.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7526.753468750001,"end":7529.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7528.27221875,"end":7537.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7530.685343749999,"end":7531.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7533.53721875,"end":7535.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7535.8153437500005,"end":7547.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7546.632218750001,"end":7548.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7547.425343750001,"end":7549.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7548.94409375,"end":7550.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7549.93971875,"end":7553.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7551.272843750001,"end":7557.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7558.2928437499995,"end":7558.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7559.474093750001,"end":7562.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7570.780343750001,"end":7571.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7572.974093750001,"end":7574.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7574.560343749999,"end":7576.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7576.65284375,"end":7577.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7584.972218750001,"end":7586.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7586.35596875,"end":7587.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7588.04346875,"end":7588.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7589.46096875,"end":7590.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7590.99659375,"end":7592.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7593.00471875,"end":7594.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7594.13534375,"end":7595.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7596.10971875,"end":7597.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7598.151593750001,"end":7598.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7599.315968750001,"end":7601.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7602.67409375,"end":7603.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7603.46721875,"end":7605.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7605.72846875,"end":7606.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7607.854718750001,"end":7608.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7609.13721875,"end":7610.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7610.82471875,"end":7612.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7613.794718749999,"end":7617.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7618.6884687500005,"end":7621.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7621.388468749999,"end":7622.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7622.468468750001,"end":7624.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7625.337218750001,"end":7627.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7628.003468750001,"end":7629.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7629.99471875,"end":7632.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7633.4540937500005,"end":7634.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7635.58034375,"end":7636.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7636.997843749999,"end":7638.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7638.56721875,"end":7640.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7640.74409375,"end":7644.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7645.41846875,"end":7647.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7647.49409375,"end":7648.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7649.147843750001,"end":7650.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7651.18971875,"end":7653.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7653.974093750001,"end":7655.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7656.319718750001,"end":7657.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7658.327843750001,"end":7659.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7660.639718750001,"end":7662.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7662.34409375,"end":7664.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7664.50409375,"end":7666.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7667.50784375,"end":7669.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7670.190968750001,"end":7673.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7673.903468750001,"end":7677.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7678.1053437499995,"end":7682.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7683.11721875,"end":7686.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7687.31909375,"end":7688.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7688.432843750001,"end":7690.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7690.6434687500005,"end":7692.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7692.95534375,"end":7695.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7696.110968750001,"end":7703.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7704.312218750001,"end":7707.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7707.552218750001,"end":7710.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7711.38284375,"end":7716.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7717.3397187499995,"end":7719.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7720.37721875,"end":7723.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7723.83659375,"end":7728.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7729.388468749999,"end":7731.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7732.020968750001,"end":7733.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7733.48909375,"end":7735.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7735.59846875,"end":7736.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7737.825968749999,"end":7740.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7741.13346875,"end":7745.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7746.280343750001,"end":7747.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7747.84971875,"end":7748.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7750.41471875,"end":7753.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7753.772843750001,"end":7755.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7756.18596875,"end":7757.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7757.21534375,"end":7761.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7761.265343750001,"end":7763.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7764.15096875,"end":7767.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7768.18409375,"end":7772.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7773.229718750001,"end":7785.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7786.29096875,"end":7787.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7788.72096875,"end":7790.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7791.184718750001,"end":7792.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7793.02409375,"end":7794.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7795.55534375,"end":7796.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7796.7197187500005,"end":7797.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7798.10346875,"end":7809.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7810.52346875,"end":7811.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7811.9072187500005,"end":7815.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7815.56909375,"end":7816.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7817.340968750001,"end":7818.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7818.555968750001,"end":7821.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7822.0322187500005,"end":7825.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7825.93034375,"end":7828.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7828.66409375,"end":7829.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7829.4403437500005,"end":7830.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7831.22909375,"end":7836.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7836.49409375,"end":7839.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7839.464093750001,"end":7843.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7843.75034375,"end":7844.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7845.218468750001,"end":7846.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7847.44596875,"end":7849.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7850.02784375,"end":7851.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7852.18784375,"end":7857.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7857.638468749999,"end":7861.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7862.059718750001,"end":7863.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7864.067843750001,"end":7871.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7872.53909375,"end":7873.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7875.644093750001,"end":7879.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7879.52534375,"end":7880.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7882.343468750001,"end":7883.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7884.33471875,"end":7886.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7886.12346875,"end":7889.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7889.78534375,"end":7891.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7892.198468750001,"end":7895.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7895.87721875,"end":7898.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7899.10034375,"end":7903.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7904.50034375,"end":7912.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7913.055968750001,"end":7914.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7915.013468749999,"end":7917.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7918.354718750001,"end":7920.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7921.1053437499995,"end":7923.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7924.88534375,"end":7928.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7929.07034375,"end":7929.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7929.880343750001,"end":7930.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7931.382218750001,"end":7932.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7932.5634687500005,"end":7935.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7936.46159375,"end":7937.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7938.452843750001,"end":7943.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7944.139718750001,"end":7945.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7945.79346875,"end":7946.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7947.10971875,"end":7948.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7948.9490937499995,"end":7949.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7950.839093750001,"end":7951.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7952.59409375,"end":7954.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7954.97346875,"end":7956.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7957.200968749999,"end":7962.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7965.53721875,"end":7966.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7966.684718750001,"end":7969.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7969.114718750001,"end":7969.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7969.75596875,"end":7982.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7980.57284375,"end":7981.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7982.59784375,"end":7990.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7983.71159375,"end":7984.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7985.97284375,"end":7987.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7987.03596875,"end":7988.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7988.03159375,"end":7989.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7989.0272187499995,"end":7990.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7990.3603437500005,"end":7990.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7990.7147187499995,"end":7997.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7990.731593750001,"end":7990.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7990.967843750001,"end":7992.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7997.751593750001,"end":8004.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8003.53971875,"end":8004.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8005.83471875,"end":8014.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8013.42846875,"end":8017.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8018.54159375,"end":8023.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8023.401593750001,"end":8025.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8025.47721875,"end":8031.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8029.1053437499995,"end":8029.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8029.13909375,"end":8029.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8031.417218750001,"end":8033.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8033.03721875,"end":8036.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8034.083468750001,"end":8034.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8036.31096875,"end":8041.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8041.93034375,"end":8043.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8043.229718750001,"end":8043.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8044.61346875,"end":8046.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8047.56659375,"end":8048.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8049.608468750001,"end":8052.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8053.13534375,"end":8056.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8057.08409375,"end":8061.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8061.6572187500005,"end":8062.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8063.429093750001,"end":8066.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8067.25971875,"end":8067.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8068.677218750001,"end":8069.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8069.571593750001,"end":8070.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8071.83284375,"end":8077.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8078.4647187499995,"end":8081.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8083.03784375,"end":8085.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8087.138468750001,"end":8090.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8091.0028437500005,"end":8092.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8092.92659375,"end":8094.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8095.23846875,"end":8098.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8099.11971875,"end":8102.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8102.5790937500005,"end":8105.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8105.97096875,"end":8109.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8111.21909375,"end":8111.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8112.43409375,"end":8113.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8114.77971875,"end":8117.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8118.137843750001,"end":8119.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8119.55534375,"end":8132.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8119.57221875,"end":8120.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8133.52784375,"end":8136.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8137.206593750001,"end":8137.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8138.97846875,"end":8140.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8141.425343750001,"end":8142.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8143.635968750001,"end":8144.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8146.0322187500005,"end":8149.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8149.7615937499995,"end":8150.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8151.29721875,"end":8153.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8153.77784375,"end":8164.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8164.965968750001,"end":8167.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8168.104718750001,"end":8177.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8177.72346875,"end":8178.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8178.90471875,"end":8180.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8180.760968750001,"end":8182.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8183.292218750001,"end":8187.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8187.932843750001,"end":8189.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8189.991593750001,"end":8198.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8198.95221875,"end":8200.774718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8201.16284375,"end":8205.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8206.57971875,"end":8207.102843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8207.558468750001,"end":8208.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8208.70596875,"end":8211.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8212.165343749999,"end":8214.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8214.477218750002,"end":8215.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8216.24909375,"end":8219.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8219.82659375,"end":8222.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8222.61096875,"end":8225.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8226.40784375,"end":8229.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8231.80784375,"end":8232.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8232.78659375,"end":8233.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8235.18284375,"end":8235.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8236.245968750001,"end":8239.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8242.87784375,"end":8243.384093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8243.485343750002,"end":8245.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8246.18534375,"end":8247.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8249.864093750002,"end":8250.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8251.399718749999,"end":8255.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8258.183468750001,"end":8259.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8259.68534375,"end":8261.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8262.26721875,"end":8276.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8277.20159375,"end":8283.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8283.816593750002,"end":8285.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8286.48284375,"end":8287.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8287.96784375,"end":8300.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8300.92784375,"end":8305.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8305.855343750001,"end":8311.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8311.84596875,"end":8313.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8314.15784375,"end":8317.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8317.617218750001,"end":8328.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8327.910968750002,"end":8331.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8330.273468750001,"end":8344.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8336.348468750002,"end":8337.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8344.97159375,"end":8354.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8354.387843750003,"end":8370.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8370.53721875,"end":8404.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8404.87784375,"end":8409.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8409.45096875,"end":8411.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8411.94846875,"end":8416.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8417.16284375,"end":8418.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8418.344093750002,"end":8424.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8424.90846875,"end":8445.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8445.462218750003,"end":8465.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8450.71034375,"end":8451.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8459.907218750002,"end":8460.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8460.160343750002,"end":8460.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8465.61096875,"end":8471.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8470.707218750002,"end":8472.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8472.22596875,"end":8477.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8473.15409375,"end":8473.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8473.829093750002,"end":8474.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8475.870968750001,"end":8476.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8477.946593750003,"end":8485.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8485.371593750002,"end":8490.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8490.97409375,"end":8491.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8491.159718750001,"end":8491.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8491.21034375,"end":8509.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8510.144093750001,"end":8521.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8521.46721875,"end":8524.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8524.977218750002,"end":8525.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8525.348468750002,"end":8534.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8533.937843750002,"end":8536.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8535.96284375,"end":8543.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8536.55346875,"end":8536.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8542.577843750001,"end":8548.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8548.973468750002,"end":8549.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8549.024093750002,"end":8551.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8550.019718750002,"end":8550.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8552.16284375,"end":8553.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8553.25971875,"end":8554.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8554.508468750002,"end":8554.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8554.54221875,"end":8555.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8555.706593750001,"end":8555.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8555.95971875,"end":8560.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8556.01034375,"end":8556.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8562.01784375,"end":8562.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8562.102218750002,"end":8562.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8562.254093750002,"end":8562.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8562.96284375,"end":8563.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8563.03034375,"end":8563.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8563.77284375,"end":8563.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8563.789718750002,"end":8563.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8563.80659375,"end":8563.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8563.82346875,"end":8563.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8563.840343750002,"end":8563.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8563.95846875,"end":8563.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8563.97534375,"end":8575.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8576.395343750002,"end":8577.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8577.441593750002,"end":8577.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8577.509093750003,"end":8577.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8577.559718750003,"end":8578.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8577.762218750002,"end":8577.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8578.082843750002,"end":8578.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8578.09971875,"end":8578.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8579.06159375,"end":8601.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8602.382843750001,"end":8607.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8607.69846875,"end":8608.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8608.980968750002,"end":8646.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8646.156593750002,"end":8680.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8680.36221875,"end":8685.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8686.15034375,"end":8695.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8694.621593750002,"end":8704.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8698.739093750002,"end":8699.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8701.65846875,"end":8703.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8704.83096875,"end":8718.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8718.145343750002,"end":8730.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8730.46409375,"end":8741.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8741.11221875,"end":8759.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8760.113468750002,"end":8762.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8763.184718750003,"end":8768.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8768.31471875,"end":8772.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8772.16221875,"end":8772.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8773.191593750002,"end":8773.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8773.242218750001,"end":8779.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8780.144093750001,"end":8786.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8786.35409375,"end":8786.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8786.60721875,"end":8786.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8786.65784375,"end":8804.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8804.69721875,"end":8807.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8806.23284375,"end":8808.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8808.274718750003,"end":8816.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8811.93659375,"end":8813.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8814.87284375,"end":8853.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8849.09534375,"end":8849.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8850.242843750002,"end":8850.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8853.567218750002,"end":8887.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8865.04221875,"end":8865.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8876.26409375,"end":8876.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8876.348468750002,"end":8876.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8876.399093750002,"end":8876.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8887.97534375,"end":8888.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8888.86971875,"end":8889.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8890.169093750003,"end":8890.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8894.50596875,"end":8897.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8901.559718750003,"end":8906.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8909.676593750002,"end":8910.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8911.58346875,"end":8911.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8911.988468750002,"end":8945.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8946.44721875,"end":8955.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8955.52596875,"end":8962.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8963.524718750003,"end":8969.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8969.75159375,"end":8973.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8976.602843750003,"end":8985.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8984.550968750002,"end":8984.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8985.47909375,"end":8991.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8990.22096875,"end":8990.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8990.777843750002,"end":8990.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8991.23346875,"end":8992.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8993.07284375,"end":8993.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8993.089718750001,"end":8993.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8993.106593750003,"end":8993.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8993.12346875,"end":8994.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8994.405968750001,"end":8998.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8999.097218750001,"end":9008.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9008.56409375,"end":9027.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9027.700343750003,"end":9027.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9027.750968750002,"end":9082.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9052.050968750002,"end":9052.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9052.962218750003,"end":9052.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9058.699718750002,"end":9059.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9083.117843750002,"end":9096.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9097.47846875,"end":9106.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9106.48971875,"end":9114.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9114.82596875,"end":9123.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9124.02284375,"end":9145.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9126.53721875,"end":9126.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9127.887218750002,"end":9128.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9130.87409375,"end":9131.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9131.27909375,"end":9131.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9131.363468750002,"end":9131.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9145.825343750003,"end":9158.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9158.987843750001,"end":9160.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9160.45596875,"end":9162.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9162.261593750001,"end":9165.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9166.058468750001,"end":9167.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9167.391593750002,"end":9180.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9180.97596875,"end":9190.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9190.915343750003,"end":9229.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9229.862843750001,"end":9229.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9229.89659375,"end":9229.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9229.99784375,"end":9230.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9230.031593750002,"end":9230.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9230.21721875,"end":9254.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9250.24784375,"end":9250.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9250.34909375,"end":9250.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9250.484093750001,"end":9250.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9254.78721875,"end":9262.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9262.49909375,"end":9265.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9265.840343750002,"end":9266.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9266.144093750001,"end":9272.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9268.65846875,"end":9268.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9272.117843750002,"end":9272.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9272.52284375,"end":9273.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9273.88971875,"end":9275.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9275.796593750001,"end":9276.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9277.41659375,"end":9279.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9278.496593750002,"end":9278.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9278.53034375,"end":9279.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9279.03659375,"end":9279.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9279.32346875,"end":9280.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9279.964718750001,"end":9280.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9280.403468750003,"end":9280.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9280.94346875,"end":9283.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9283.761593750001,"end":9285.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9285.58409375,"end":9293.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9294.39284375,"end":9296.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9296.50221875,"end":9297.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9297.902843750002,"end":9298.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9298.628468750001,"end":9300.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9301.058468750001,"end":9301.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9306.05346875,"end":9307.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9308.669093750003,"end":9309.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9309.884093750003,"end":9310.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9310.96409375,"end":9311.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9311.672843750002,"end":9314.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9315.16596875,"end":9315.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9316.262843750003,"end":9317.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9323.29971875,"end":9323.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9324.44721875,"end":9325.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9325.915343750003,"end":9326.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9327.41721875,"end":9330.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9330.77534375,"end":9339.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9339.53346875,"end":9346.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9347.262218750002,"end":9352.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9352.746593750002,"end":9353.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9353.539718750002,"end":9357.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9358.16346875,"end":9360.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9361.04909375,"end":9361.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9361.62284375,"end":9362.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9363.78284375,"end":9364.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9364.829093750002,"end":9366.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9367.613468750002,"end":9368.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9368.86221875,"end":9371.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9371.32596875,"end":9372.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9373.08096875,"end":9374.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9375.207218750002,"end":9377.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9378.261593750001,"end":9380.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9380.72534375,"end":9384.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9385.46721875,"end":9389.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9389.98971875,"end":9393.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9393.38159375,"end":9397.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9398.055968750003,"end":9398.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9399.254093750002,"end":9404.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9404.56971875,"end":9406.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9407.18534375,"end":9410.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9410.94846875,"end":9415.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9415.96034375,"end":9419.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9419.571593750003,"end":9428.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9428.92034375,"end":9431.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9432.210968750001,"end":9435.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9435.02909375,"end":9436.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9437.222843750002,"end":9442.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9442.757843750001,"end":9454.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9454.11471875,"end":9454.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9454.65471875,"end":9456.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9454.85721875,"end":9455.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9457.30409375,"end":9462.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9463.379093750002,"end":9465.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9466.332218750002,"end":9468.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9469.09971875,"end":9475.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9475.57971875,"end":9497.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9497.83784375,"end":9503.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9503.84534375,"end":9506.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9506.039093750001,"end":9506.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9506.309093750002,"end":9506.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9506.832218750002,"end":9506.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9506.882843750001,"end":9511.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9512.62034375,"end":9514.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9514.746593750002,"end":9517.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9518.020343750002,"end":9522.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9521.597843750002,"end":9522.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9522.492218750001,"end":9526.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9527.31846875,"end":9533.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9533.207843750002,"end":9537.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9537.409718750001,"end":9538.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9538.03409375,"end":9538.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9538.641593750002,"end":9538.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9538.65846875,"end":9543.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9540.97034375,"end":9543.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9543.19784375,"end":9543.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9543.957218750002,"end":9545.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9546.15096875,"end":9551.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9551.95596875,"end":9553.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9553.390343750001,"end":9553.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9554.09909375,"end":9558.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9558.85784375,"end":9558.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9558.90846875,"end":9559.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9559.11096875,"end":9569.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9570.14721875,"end":9575.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9576.914093750001,"end":9581.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9581.68971875,"end":9583.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9583.44471875,"end":9588.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9588.878468750001,"end":9605.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9592.995968750001,"end":9593.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9595.155968750001,"end":9595.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9605.90534375,"end":9607.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9607.339718750001,"end":9608.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9608.95971875,"end":9619.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9610.74846875,"end":9610.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9610.832843750002,"end":9610.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9610.96784375,"end":9610.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9619.995968750001,"end":9620.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9620.367218750001,"end":9623.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9623.97846875,"end":9630.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9630.99846875,"end":9632.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9632.53409375,"end":9634.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9635.082218750002,"end":9637.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9637.90034375,"end":9641.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9641.882843750001,"end":9652.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9652.058468750001,"end":9652.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9652.699718750002,"end":9670.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9655.028468750003,"end":9655.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9670.28346875,"end":9672.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9670.722218750001,"end":9670.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9672.578468750002,"end":9672.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9672.66284375,"end":9672.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9672.679718750001,"end":9672.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9672.747218750003,"end":9672.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9672.797843750002,"end":9672.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9672.88221875,"end":9673.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9673.03409375,"end":9683.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9674.02971875,"end":9674.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9675.02534375,"end":9677.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9677.50596875,"end":9677.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9677.65784375,"end":9678.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9681.218468750001,"end":9681.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9683.63159375,"end":9688.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9687.090968750003,"end":9687.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9689.082218750002,"end":9689.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9690.26346875,"end":9692.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9692.457218750002,"end":9695.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9695.59596875,"end":9697.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9697.739093750002,"end":9698.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9699.93284375,"end":9701.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9702.801593750002,"end":9704.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9704.337218750003,"end":9704.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9704.370968750001,"end":9704.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9704.792843750001,"end":9707.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9705.24846875,"end":9706.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9707.324093750001,"end":9710.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9709.956593750001,"end":9710.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9710.90159375,"end":9715.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9716.11596875,"end":9717.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9718.461593750002,"end":9719.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9721.00971875,"end":9722.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9723.355343750001,"end":9724.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9724.90784375,"end":9728.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9724.92471875,"end":9725.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9725.02596875,"end":9725.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9725.093468750001,"end":9725.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9725.886593750001,"end":9725.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9729.93659375,"end":9736.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9736.93971875,"end":9742.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9743.26784375,"end":9749.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9750.152843750002,"end":9756.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9757.76346875,"end":9769.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9769.019093750001,"end":9769.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9769.32284375,"end":9778.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9778.688468750002,"end":9780.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9781.219718750002,"end":9782.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9783.059093750002,"end":9783.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9783.210968750001,"end":9783.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9783.59909375,"end":9792.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9790.24784375,"end":9806.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9793.133468750002,"end":9793.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9807.19034375,"end":9809.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9810.109718750002,"end":9811.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9811.527218750001,"end":9817.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9818.277218750001,"end":9819.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9820.67346875,"end":9824.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9824.774093750002,"end":9832.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9833.71784375,"end":9837.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9838.797218750002,"end":9845.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9843.77534375,"end":9846.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9846.32346875,"end":9846.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9846.340343750002,"end":9846.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9846.40784375,"end":9846.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9846.42471875,"end":9848.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9848.719718750002,"end":9850.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9851.33534375,"end":9852.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9854.42346875,"end":9854.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9854.76096875,"end":9876.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9875.68596875,"end":9877.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9876.985343750002,"end":9879.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9877.778468750003,"end":9885.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9885.794093750003,"end":9890.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9891.59909375,"end":9893.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9893.97846875,"end":9895.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9894.332843750002,"end":9908.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9902.43284375,"end":9902.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9902.500343750002,"end":9903.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9908.777843750002,"end":9914.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9913.620968750001,"end":9914.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9914.363468750002,"end":9914.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9914.954093750002,"end":9915.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9916.152218750001,"end":9916.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9917.215343750002,"end":9919.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9919.81409375,"end":9920.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9927.74534375,"end":9929.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9929.871593750002,"end":9933.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9934.27596875,"end":9936.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9937.07721875,"end":9938.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9937.094093750002,"end":9937.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9938.207843750002,"end":9938.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9939.01784375,"end":9939.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9940.01346875,"end":9941.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9942.07221875,"end":9943.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9944.384093750003,"end":9945.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9948.585968750001,"end":9949.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9949.379093750002,"end":9951.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9951.539093750001,"end":9952.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9952.551593750002,"end":9952.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9953.395343750002,"end":9954.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9955.015343750001,"end":9958.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9959.571593750003,"end":9960.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9961.69784375,"end":9962.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9962.38971875,"end":9962.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9962.406593750002,"end":9963.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9962.828468750002,"end":9964.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9965.17409375,"end":9967.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9969.96659375,"end":9975.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9974.860343750002,"end":9975.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9975.24846875,"end":9975.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9975.332843750002,"end":9979.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9977.93159375,"end":9978.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9979.230968750002,"end":9979.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9979.63596875,"end":9980.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9980.699093750001,"end":9980.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9980.73284375,"end":9980.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9980.749718750001,"end":9983.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9983.618468750003,"end":9986.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9987.347843750002,"end":9987.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9988.63034375,"end":9990.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9991.00971875,"end":9993.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9994.367843750002,"end":9997.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9997.81034375,"end":10000.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10000.78034375,"end":10002.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10003.058468750001,"end":10003.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10004.05409375,"end":10005.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10005.707843750002,"end":10006.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10007.00721875,"end":10007.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10007.88471875,"end":10008.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10009.11659375,"end":10009.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10009.99409375,"end":10010.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10011.192218750002,"end":10012.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10012.407218750002,"end":10012.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10013.149718750003,"end":10018.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10018.97159375,"end":10022.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10022.684093750002,"end":10026.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10026.93659375,"end":10027.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10027.915343750003,"end":10029.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10030.007843750001,"end":10032.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10032.859718750002,"end":10038.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10038.715343750002,"end":10040.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10041.449093750001,"end":10044.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10044.53721875,"end":10045.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10045.988468750002,"end":10049.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10049.835968750001,"end":10052.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10052.97471875,"end":10053.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10053.14346875,"end":10054.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10054.83096875,"end":10054.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10055.219093750002,"end":10055.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10055.23596875,"end":10065.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10061.73284375,"end":10065.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10066.15409375,"end":10071.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10067.09909375,"end":10067.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10071.030968750001,"end":10071.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10071.48659375,"end":10071.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10072.90409375,"end":10072.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10072.92096875,"end":10073.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10073.258468750002,"end":10073.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10073.49471875,"end":10075.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10076.160968750002,"end":10078.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10078.945343750001,"end":10082.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10082.99534375,"end":10084.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10084.09221875,"end":10085.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10085.273468750001,"end":10087.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10087.652843750002,"end":10091.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10091.550968750002,"end":10092.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10093.06971875,"end":10094.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10094.875343750002,"end":10096.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10096.680968750003,"end":10097.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10098.149093750002,"end":10100.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10101.034718750001,"end":10103.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10103.97096875,"end":10104.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10104.98346875,"end":10112.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10112.425343750001,"end":10117.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10117.859093750001,"end":10120.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10120.339718750001,"end":10121.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10121.976593750001,"end":10122.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10122.90471875,"end":10128.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10128.64221875,"end":10136.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10133.55284375,"end":10148.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10148.74034375,"end":10149.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10150.360343750002,"end":10156.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10156.35096875,"end":10162.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10158.44346875,"end":10159.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10159.590968750003,"end":10160.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10162.122218750003,"end":10169.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10162.155968750001,"end":10163.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10169.800343750001,"end":10170.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10170.25596875,"end":10170.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10170.812843750002,"end":10180.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10174.27221875,"end":10176.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10180.735343750002,"end":10182.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10183.08096875,"end":10184.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10184.61659375,"end":10185.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10185.51096875,"end":10186.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10186.65846875,"end":10187.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10188.059093750002,"end":10189.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10189.223468750002,"end":10189.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10189.83096875,"end":10193.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10193.77971875,"end":10198.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10194.015968750002,"end":10194.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10194.03284375,"end":10194.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10194.62346875,"end":10194.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10198.30221875,"end":10198.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10198.605968750002,"end":10198.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10198.656593750002,"end":10200.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10198.67346875,"end":10200.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10200.462218750003,"end":10200.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10200.52971875,"end":10200.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10200.69846875,"end":10200.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10201.339718750001,"end":10206.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10203.26346875,"end":10204.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10204.782218750002,"end":10204.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10204.984718750002,"end":10205.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10205.035343750002,"end":10206.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10207.49909375,"end":10207.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10207.515968750002,"end":10210.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10211.17784375,"end":10212.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10212.81471875,"end":10214.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10214.28284375,"end":10215.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10215.97034375,"end":10217.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10217.77596875,"end":10221.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10221.387218750002,"end":10221.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10221.62346875,"end":10223.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10223.749718750001,"end":10224.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10225.30221875,"end":10227.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10227.141593750002,"end":10228.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10228.64346875,"end":10230.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10230.972218750001,"end":10233.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10233.31784375,"end":10233.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10233.58784375,"end":10237.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10235.882843750001,"end":10236.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10237.11471875,"end":10237.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10237.587218750003,"end":10238.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10238.38034375,"end":10239.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10239.59534375,"end":10240.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10240.91159375,"end":10241.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10242.261593750001,"end":10243.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10243.83096875,"end":10247.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10248.25221875,"end":10251.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10251.762218750002,"end":10252.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10252.74096875,"end":10257.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10257.53346875,"end":10263.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10264.165343750003,"end":10265.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10265.633468750002,"end":10268.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10269.19409375,"end":10270.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10270.746593750002,"end":10271.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10272.332843750002,"end":10273.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10274.13846875,"end":10274.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10275.30284375,"end":10276.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10276.922843750002,"end":10278.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10279.09971875,"end":10280.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10281.124718750001,"end":10282.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10282.91346875,"end":10284.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10284.449093750001,"end":10285.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10286.085968750001,"end":10287.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10288.094093750002,"end":10289.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10289.86596875,"end":10291.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10291.519718750002,"end":10295.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10295.19846875,"end":10297.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10297.76346875,"end":10300.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10300.058468750001,"end":10308.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10308.32721875,"end":10315.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10308.394718750002,"end":10308.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10314.18284375,"end":10315.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10315.27971875,"end":10315.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10315.39784375,"end":10316.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10316.039093750001,"end":10316.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10316.69721875,"end":10317.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10316.71409375,"end":10317.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10317.96284375,"end":10322.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10322.33346875,"end":10325.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10326.45096875,"end":10326.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10327.176593750002,"end":10328.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10328.56034375,"end":10333.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10333.977218750002,"end":10334.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10334.93909375,"end":10341.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10340.69346875,"end":10345.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10342.12784375,"end":10350.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10345.890968750002,"end":10345.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10345.97534375,"end":10347.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10348.253468750001,"end":10356.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10370.76471875,"end":10371.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10371.60846875,"end":10371.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10371.65909375,"end":10371.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10371.70971875,"end":10371.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10371.726593750001,"end":10371.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10371.76034375,"end":10372.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10371.86159375,"end":10372.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10372.53659375,"end":10372.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10372.55346875,"end":10372.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10372.840343750002,"end":10373.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10373.532218750002,"end":10375.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10375.23659375,"end":10377.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10384.73721875,"end":10386.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10388.51721875,"end":10389.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10389.31034375,"end":10389.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10390.89659375,"end":10393.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10393.984718750002,"end":10395.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10396.17846875,"end":10397.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10398.675968750002,"end":10399.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10400.22846875,"end":10401.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10401.03846875,"end":10401.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10401.86534375,"end":10402.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10403.316593750002,"end":10426.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10426.77284375,"end":10432.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10433.13471875,"end":10436.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10437.35346875,"end":10438.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10439.04096875,"end":10440.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10440.762218750002,"end":10444.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10444.879718750002,"end":10448.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10448.727218750002,"end":10460.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10451.781593750002,"end":10451.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10460.117843750002,"end":10498.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10498.52534375,"end":10520.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10520.63159375,"end":10527.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10528.02284375,"end":10532.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10532.730968750002,"end":10536.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10536.46034375,"end":10537.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10537.422218750002,"end":10537.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10537.911593750003,"end":10557.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10559.22471875,"end":10571.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10570.530968750001,"end":10581.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10582.07346875,"end":10582.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10583.00159375,"end":10602.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10601.378468750001,"end":10606.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10605.816593750002,"end":10660.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10660.52534375,"end":10661.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10661.80784375,"end":10683.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10682.98596875,"end":10703.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10703.23596875,"end":10704.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10704.974093750003,"end":10717.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10718.474093750003,"end":10720.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10721.32596875,"end":10724.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10721.39346875,"end":10722.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10724.75159375,"end":10727.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10725.055343750002,"end":10725.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10728.210968750001,"end":10730.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10732.024718750003,"end":10737.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10737.69471875,"end":10742.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10742.605343750001,"end":10752.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10753.50659375,"end":10758.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10757.792843750001,"end":10773.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10764.289718750002,"end":10764.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10764.52596875,"end":10764.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10764.559718750003,"end":10764.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10773.68909375,"end":10791.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10788.505343750003,"end":10791.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10791.25596875,"end":10794.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10796.099093750003,"end":10802.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10799.204093750002,"end":10807.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10808.70471875,"end":10810.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10808.805968750003,"end":10808.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10810.81409375,"end":10811.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10811.23596875,"end":10811.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10812.14721875,"end":10814.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10815.657218750002,"end":10819.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10818.036593750003,"end":10819.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10819.605968750002,"end":10821.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10819.69034375,"end":10820.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10821.05721875,"end":10823.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10823.74034375,"end":10830.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10823.79096875,"end":10826.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10830.33846875,"end":10835.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10830.422843750002,"end":10831.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10834.574093750001,"end":10836.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10837.004093750002,"end":10838.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10839.164093750001,"end":10840.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10840.058468750001,"end":10840.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10840.497218750003,"end":10842.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10843.534718750001,"end":10844.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10844.277218750001,"end":10844.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10844.378468750001,"end":10844.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10844.395343750002,"end":10844.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10844.445968750002,"end":10844.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10844.73284375,"end":10848.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10848.867218750001,"end":10848.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10848.917843750001,"end":10849.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10849.54221875,"end":10851.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10851.95534375,"end":10856.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10856.089718750001,"end":10856.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10856.140343750001,"end":10856.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10856.359718750002,"end":10862.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10862.215343750002,"end":10871.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10870.26471875,"end":10873.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10873.504718750002,"end":10873.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10873.84221875,"end":10877.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10873.909718750001,"end":10874.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10876.05284375,"end":10876.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10876.57596875,"end":10882.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10883.730968750002,"end":10888.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10888.270343750002,"end":10890.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10890.12659375,"end":10890.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10890.329093750002,"end":10890.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10890.71721875,"end":10890.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10890.801593750002,"end":10894.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10892.67471875,"end":10894.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10894.51409375,"end":10894.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10894.969718750002,"end":10894.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10894.98659375,"end":10895.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10895.20596875,"end":10895.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10895.222843750002,"end":10895.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10895.239718750003,"end":10895.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10895.290343750003,"end":10895.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10895.30721875,"end":10897.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10895.324093750001,"end":10896.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10897.24784375,"end":10901.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10898.867843750002,"end":10910.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10907.86221875,"end":10921.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10922.003468750001,"end":10922.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10923.437843750002,"end":10926.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10927.15034375,"end":10932.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10933.42784375,"end":10941.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10940.987843750001,"end":10942.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10942.118468750003,"end":10942.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10942.253468750001,"end":10946.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10945.98284375,"end":10947.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10947.552218750003,"end":10949.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10949.18909375,"end":10950.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10950.40409375,"end":10953.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10953.610343750002,"end":10954.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10954.825343750003,"end":10968.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10969.067843750003,"end":10976.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10976.914718750002,"end":10986.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10984.57596875,"end":10984.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10984.62659375,"end":10985.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10985.36909375,"end":10985.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10986.094718750002,"end":10986.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10986.870968750001,"end":10987.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10991.17409375,"end":10992.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10992.60846875,"end":10995.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11001.231593750003,"end":11001.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11003.425343750001,"end":11007.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11010.090968750003,"end":11010.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11016.840968750003,"end":11017.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11021.211593750002,"end":11022.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11022.949718750002,"end":11023.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11024.519093750001,"end":11027.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11028.214718750001,"end":11030.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11031.20159375,"end":11033.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11033.277218750001,"end":11033.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11034.62721875,"end":11035.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11036.43284375,"end":11039.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11039.79096875,"end":11041.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11042.06909375,"end":11044.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11045.29221875,"end":11048.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11049.39284375,"end":11050.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11050.489718750003,"end":11052.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11053.03784375,"end":11056.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11056.919093750003,"end":11057.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11058.387218750002,"end":11059.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11060.547218750002,"end":11064.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11064.411593750003,"end":11064.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11065.710968750001,"end":11070.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11070.21659375,"end":11071.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11072.86596875,"end":11073.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11074.75596875,"end":11076.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11076.477218750002,"end":11077.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11077.523468750001,"end":11078.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11079.61596875,"end":11082.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11082.41721875,"end":11083.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11084.374718750001,"end":11085.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11086.230968750002,"end":11087.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11087.88471875,"end":11089.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11090.16284375,"end":11092.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11093.082218750002,"end":11095.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11096.64284375,"end":11098.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11099.74784375,"end":11100.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11100.827843750001,"end":11101.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11101.840343750002,"end":11102.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11102.414093750001,"end":11103.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11103.81471875,"end":11104.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11104.692218750002,"end":11105.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11105.367218750001,"end":11107.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11108.62409375,"end":11109.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11110.446593750003,"end":11111.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11111.72909375,"end":11113.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11115.37409375,"end":11116.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11117.027843750002,"end":11119.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11120.04846875,"end":11121.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11121.26346875,"end":11123.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11123.980343750001,"end":11125.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11126.157218750002,"end":11127.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11127.878468750001,"end":11129.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11130.56159375,"end":11132.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11133.582218750002,"end":11134.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11134.915343750003,"end":11137.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11138.847218750001,"end":11140.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11141.63159375,"end":11142.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11143.67346875,"end":11145.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11146.12034375,"end":11147.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11147.976593750001,"end":11150.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11151.469718750002,"end":11154.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11155.097843750002,"end":11156.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11156.76846875,"end":11157.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11157.949718750002,"end":11159.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11159.333468750003,"end":11160.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11161.76346875,"end":11163.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11164.497218750003,"end":11165.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11166.184718750003,"end":11169.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11169.509093750003,"end":11170.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11171.48346875,"end":11173.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11175.195968750002,"end":11175.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11176.22534375,"end":11177.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11178.891593750002,"end":11180.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11180.79846875,"end":11182.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11182.739093750002,"end":11183.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11183.71784375,"end":11183.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11183.734718750002,"end":11184.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11184.86534375,"end":11185.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11185.624718750001,"end":11191.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11191.66596875,"end":11201.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11202.364718750003,"end":11204.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11204.91284375,"end":11206.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11206.12784375,"end":11206.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11206.718468750001,"end":11207.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11207.039093750001,"end":11208.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11208.827843750001,"end":11212.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11213.23221875,"end":11215.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11215.88159375,"end":11218.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11219.374718750001,"end":11220.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11220.657218750002,"end":11220.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11220.77534375,"end":11226.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11225.618468750003,"end":11234.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11232.047843750002,"end":11233.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11233.90409375,"end":11256.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11255.132843750001,"end":11255.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11255.706593750001,"end":11255.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11256.31409375,"end":11256.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11256.48284375,"end":11256.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11257.69784375,"end":11263.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11264.633468750002,"end":11271.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11264.70096875,"end":11265.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11265.679718750001,"end":11267.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11271.61971875,"end":11274.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11274.539093750001,"end":11275.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11276.226593750001,"end":11277.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11277.62721875,"end":11279.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11279.500343750002,"end":11280.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11281.54221875,"end":11287.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11287.65096875,"end":11290.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11290.80659375,"end":11294.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11294.08034375,"end":11295.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11296.34159375,"end":11301.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11298.19784375,"end":11298.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11298.231593750003,"end":11298.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11298.974093750003,"end":11300.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11300.05409375,"end":11300.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11300.25659375,"end":11300.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11301.47159375,"end":11302.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11302.68659375,"end":11306.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11307.192218750002,"end":11310.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11307.79971875,"end":11308.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11308.05284375,"end":11308.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11310.75284375,"end":11312.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11312.28846875,"end":11312.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11313.739718750003,"end":11314.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11314.87034375,"end":11316.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11317.18221875,"end":11318.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11319.527843750002,"end":11319.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11319.527843750002,"end":11322.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11320.945343750001,"end":11338.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11338.343468750001,"end":11338.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11339.37284375,"end":11340.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11341.161593750003,"end":11342.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11343.270968750003,"end":11344.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11345.954093750002,"end":11351.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11351.35409375,"end":11355.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11353.969718750002,"end":11357.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11357.175968750002,"end":11357.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11357.51346875,"end":11357.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11357.766593750002,"end":11363.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11358.37409375,"end":11358.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11363.58846875,"end":11365.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11365.91721875,"end":11367.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11367.942218750002,"end":11370.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11371.671593750001,"end":11372.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11372.582843750002,"end":11377.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11372.633468750002,"end":11373.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11374.472843750002,"end":11374.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11375.29971875,"end":11384.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11382.77534375,"end":11386.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11386.79159375,"end":11387.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11388.00659375,"end":11389.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11389.94721875,"end":11391.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11391.53346875,"end":11393.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11394.351593750001,"end":11394.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11395.347218750001,"end":11397.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11398.536593750003,"end":11399.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11400.359093750001,"end":11402.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11402.35034375,"end":11405.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11406.012218750002,"end":11409.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11410.281593750002,"end":11412.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11412.137843750003,"end":11412.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11412.812843750002,"end":11412.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11412.964718750001,"end":11413.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11413.724093750003,"end":11413.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11413.926593750002,"end":11414.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11415.040343750003,"end":11420.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11420.71034375,"end":11420.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11420.997218750003,"end":11421.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11421.773468750001,"end":11422.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11423.07284375,"end":11425.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11426.86971875,"end":11428.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11428.523468750001,"end":11430.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11431.30784375,"end":11434.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11436.083468750003,"end":11436.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11437.68659375,"end":11442.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11443.22159375,"end":11447.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11443.390343750001,"end":11444.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11446.731593750003,"end":11448.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11449.12784375,"end":11450.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11450.54534375,"end":11451.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11451.996593750002,"end":11453.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11454.629093750002,"end":11457.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11457.312218750001,"end":11459.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11460.04596875,"end":11460.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11461.007843750001,"end":11464.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11464.602218750002,"end":11465.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11466.542843750001,"end":11469.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11469.614093750002,"end":11470.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11471.352218750002,"end":11473.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11474.54159375,"end":11475.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11476.00971875,"end":11476.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11477.157218750002,"end":11477.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11478.000968750002,"end":11483.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11484.379718750002,"end":11486.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11486.55659375,"end":11487.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11488.379093750002,"end":11490.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11490.57284375,"end":11491.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11491.93971875,"end":11493.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11492.58096875,"end":11496.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11494.52159375,"end":11494.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11495.78721875,"end":11496.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11496.64784375,"end":11498.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11499.246593750002,"end":11500.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11500.630343750003,"end":11501.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11501.727218750002,"end":11503.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11504.59596875,"end":11506.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11506.97534375,"end":11509.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11510.164718750002,"end":11512.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11513.03346875,"end":11513.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11514.602843750003,"end":11516.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11516.374718750001,"end":11518.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11519.46284375,"end":11524.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11524.94721875,"end":11527.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11528.64284375,"end":11530.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11531.24159375,"end":11532.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11533.148468750001,"end":11533.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11534.414093750001,"end":11536.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11536.641593750002,"end":11538.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11538.784718750001,"end":11539.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11540.20221875,"end":11542.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11542.497218750003,"end":11543.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11544.67409375,"end":11548.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11549.78721875,"end":11550.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11551.339718750001,"end":11553.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11553.70221875,"end":11555.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11556.33471875,"end":11557.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11558.309093750002,"end":11562.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11558.629718750002,"end":11558.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11561.734718750002,"end":11565.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11565.632843750001,"end":11571.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11571.437843750002,"end":11572.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11573.20971875,"end":11575.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11576.280968750001,"end":11578.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11578.74471875,"end":11580.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11580.33096875,"end":11584.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11583.250343750002,"end":11583.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11583.570968750002,"end":11583.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11585.32596875,"end":11591.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11586.355343750001,"end":11587.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11587.570343750001,"end":11587.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11587.587218750003,"end":11587.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11588.66721875,"end":11588.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11591.586593750002,"end":11592.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11593.915343750003,"end":11597.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11598.960968750001,"end":11599.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11600.125343750002,"end":11604.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11603.348468750002,"end":11606.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11605.778468750003,"end":11606.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11606.976593750001,"end":11614.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11614.87409375,"end":11615.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11616.224093750003,"end":11620.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11620.76346875,"end":11621.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11622.56909375,"end":11622.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11623.379093750002,"end":11626.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11626.754093750002,"end":11636.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11637.28409375,"end":11638.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11639.12346875,"end":11640.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11640.270968750003,"end":11642.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11642.987843750001,"end":11643.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11644.253468750001,"end":11644.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11645.56971875,"end":11646.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11646.39659375,"end":11648.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11648.52284375,"end":11653.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11653.703468750002,"end":11654.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11655.27284375,"end":11656.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11657.399093750002,"end":11657.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11657.972843750002,"end":11658.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11658.985343750002,"end":11661.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11661.53346875,"end":11663.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11664.250343750002,"end":11666.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11666.66346875,"end":11666.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11666.69721875,"end":11671.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11667.23721875,"end":11667.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11672.28284375,"end":11676.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11676.99096875,"end":11679.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11679.72471875,"end":11681.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11682.019718750002,"end":11682.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11691.790343750003,"end":11692.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11693.106593750003,"end":11694.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11694.321593750003,"end":11695.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11701.206593750001,"end":11701.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11702.050343750001,"end":11702.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11703.113468750002,"end":11718.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11719.17846875,"end":11730.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11731.21034375,"end":11732.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11733.25221875,"end":11741.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11742.21284375,"end":11742.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11743.52909375,"end":11761.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11764.386593750001,"end":11764.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11764.403468750003,"end":11772.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11772.21659375,"end":11777.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11777.954093750002,"end":11788.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11788.66971875,"end":11801.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11799.85784375,"end":11813.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11801.74784375,"end":11802.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11813.239718750003,"end":11813.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11814.77534375,"end":11823.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11823.550343750001,"end":11832.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11832.679718750001,"end":11839.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11840.003468750001,"end":11840.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11842.66971875,"end":11848.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11848.99784375,"end":11851.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11852.00159375,"end":11852.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11853.469718750002,"end":11914.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11914.371593750002,"end":11919.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11920.109093750001,"end":11920.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11920.649093750002,"end":11923.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11923.83846875,"end":11941.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11942.367218750001,"end":11945.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11945.489093750002,"end":11945.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11945.539718750002,"end":11945.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11945.792843750001,"end":11945.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11945.87721875,"end":11946.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11946.02909375,"end":11967.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11967.44346875,"end":11968.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11969.097218750001,"end":11969.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11970.329093750002,"end":11971.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11975.13846875,"end":11975.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11976.31971875,"end":11990.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11990.37659375,"end":11993.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11994.004718750002,"end":11998.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12004.922843750002,"end":12006.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12006.509093750003,"end":12007.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12014.828468750002,"end":12015.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12015.13221875,"end":12015.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12015.452843750001,"end":12015.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12015.63846875,"end":12021.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12022.962218750003,"end":12026.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12025.76346875,"end":12027.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12028.21034375,"end":12033.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12034.16721875,"end":12037.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12037.778468750003,"end":12041.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12042.098468750002,"end":12042.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12044.07284375,"end":12046.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12047.009093750003,"end":12052.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12052.594718750002,"end":12053.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12054.062843750002,"end":12058.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12059.20971875,"end":12060.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12060.812843750002,"end":12064.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12065.11596875,"end":12065.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12066.347843750002,"end":12067.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12068.54159375,"end":12068.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12069.672218750002,"end":12072.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12072.996593750002,"end":12074.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12074.29596875,"end":12075.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12076.28721875,"end":12076.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12077.535968750002,"end":12085.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12085.872218750003,"end":12087.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12087.593468750001,"end":12091.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12091.559093750002,"end":12095.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12096.58784375,"end":12097.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12097.38096875,"end":12098.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12097.44846875,"end":12097.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12099.102218750002,"end":12102.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12101.464718750001,"end":12102.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12102.004718750002,"end":12102.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12102.274718750003,"end":12111.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12109.969718750002,"end":12110.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12111.42096875,"end":12111.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12111.47159375,"end":12111.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12111.67409375,"end":12128.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12121.96784375,"end":12124.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12128.29596875,"end":12128.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12129.156593750002,"end":12139.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12140.226593750001,"end":12161.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12144.765968750002,"end":12144.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12144.833468750003,"end":12144.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12158.215343750002,"end":12161.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12161.50596875,"end":12161.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12161.860343750002,"end":12164.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12164.67846875,"end":12168.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12167.98596875,"end":12168.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12168.30659375,"end":12168.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12169.11659375,"end":12171.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12172.407218750002,"end":12177.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12178.296593750001,"end":12181.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12181.28346875,"end":12184.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12185.519093750001,"end":12189.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12190.429718750001,"end":12197.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12195.69471875,"end":12197.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12197.06159375,"end":12199.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12200.68971875,"end":12201.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12201.938468750002,"end":12204.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12203.625968750002,"end":12209.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12210.93284375,"end":12227.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12228.027218750001,"end":12231.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12232.769093750001,"end":12233.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12234.692843750003,"end":12239.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12239.586593750002,"end":12241.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12241.223468750002,"end":12242.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12242.67471875,"end":12243.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12244.09221875,"end":12254.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12254.47034375,"end":12257.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12258.23346875,"end":12258.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12259.11096875,"end":12272.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12273.083468750003,"end":12275.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12274.29846875,"end":12276.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12276.62721875,"end":12288.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12286.81971875,"end":12288.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12288.11909375,"end":12288.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12288.64221875,"end":12296.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12296.30346875,"end":12298.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12298.530968750001,"end":12303.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12304.16721875,"end":12309.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12310.512218750002,"end":12311.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12311.980343750001,"end":12325.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12326.40846875,"end":12328.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12329.09159375,"end":12331.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12331.302218750003,"end":12332.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12332.63534375,"end":12336.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12336.820343750001,"end":12342.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12342.96284375,"end":12345.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12346.60784375,"end":12348.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12347.97471875,"end":12352.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12352.851593750001,"end":12360.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12360.715343750002,"end":12360.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12360.74909375,"end":12361.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12360.78284375,"end":12361.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12361.660343750002,"end":12362.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12362.89221875,"end":12363.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12363.027218750001,"end":12363.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12367.161593750003,"end":12369.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12370.992218750001,"end":12371.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12372.49409375,"end":12373.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12375.09284375,"end":12375.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12378.07971875,"end":12379.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12380.222843750002,"end":12381.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12388.019093750001,"end":12397.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12397.418468750002,"end":12397.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12397.739093750002,"end":12403.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12403.442843750003,"end":12414.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12414.917843750001,"end":12419.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12420.18284375,"end":12426.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12426.34221875,"end":12426.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12426.409718750001,"end":12428.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12426.899093750002,"end":12428.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12428.82284375,"end":12438.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12439.53846875,"end":12440.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12440.63534375,"end":12445.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12441.15846875,"end":12442.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12446.085968750001,"end":12450.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12449.34284375,"end":12450.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12450.827843750001,"end":12450.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12450.895343750002,"end":12451.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12451.01346875,"end":12451.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12451.38471875,"end":12451.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12451.97534375,"end":12470.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12453.81471875,"end":12454.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12462.488468750002,"end":12467.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12468.78284375,"end":12469.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12470.605343750001,"end":12480.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12481.489718750003,"end":12488.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12487.51409375,"end":12488.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12488.442218750002,"end":12488.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12488.492843750002,"end":12488.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12488.77971875,"end":12509.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12510.379718750002,"end":12514.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12514.952843750001,"end":12518.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12518.800343750001,"end":12522.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12522.614093750002,"end":12528.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12528.38534375,"end":12530.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12530.899718750003,"end":12535.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12536.265968750002,"end":12544.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12538.965968750003,"end":12541.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12542.121593750002,"end":12542.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12542.762843750003,"end":12542.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12544.04534375,"end":12544.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12544.61909375,"end":12544.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12544.754093750002,"end":12544.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12544.78784375,"end":12546.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12546.99846875,"end":12548.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12550.91346875,"end":12551.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12551.031593750002,"end":12552.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12553.242218750001,"end":12555.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12555.97596875,"end":12556.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12557.71409375,"end":12563.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12565.51034375,"end":12566.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12567.704093750002,"end":12568.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12568.547843750002,"end":12571.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12572.68221875,"end":12584.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12585.13596875,"end":12585.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12585.945968750002,"end":12586.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12587.29596875,"end":12591.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12591.93659375,"end":12592.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12593.50596875,"end":12594.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12594.974093750003,"end":12595.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12595.024718750003,"end":12596.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12595.98659375,"end":12599.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12599.36159375,"end":12606.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12601.656593750002,"end":12603.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12606.90471875,"end":12606.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12608.474093750003,"end":12608.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12608.49096875,"end":12620.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12620.87721875,"end":12636.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12626.20971875,"end":12626.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12636.030968750001,"end":12636.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12636.402218750001,"end":12638.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12639.22034375,"end":12642.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12642.61221875,"end":12642.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12643.422218750002,"end":12643.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12643.43909375,"end":12644.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12644.738468750002,"end":12646.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12647.30346875,"end":12652.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12653.192843750003,"end":12653.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12653.766593750002,"end":12655.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12655.74096875,"end":12660.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12661.15784375,"end":12672.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12672.02534375,"end":12675.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12674.961593750002,"end":12675.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12675.46784375,"end":12678.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12679.973468750002,"end":12689.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12689.74409375,"end":12694.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12695.07659375,"end":12696.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12696.797843750002,"end":12706.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12706.973468750002,"end":12708.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12708.644093750001,"end":12708.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12708.914093750001,"end":12709.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12709.977218750002,"end":12710.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12711.394718750002,"end":12711.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12711.411593750003,"end":12716.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12716.676593750002,"end":12731.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12730.93596875,"end":12742.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12736.352843750003,"end":12737.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12742.54596875,"end":12742.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12742.90034375,"end":12744.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12744.97596875,"end":12750.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12750.797843750002,"end":12752.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12752.02971875,"end":12770.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12753.41346875,"end":12753.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12771.75659375,"end":12778.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12778.590968750003,"end":12798.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12795.17909375,"end":12795.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12799.110968750003,"end":12799.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12799.634093750003,"end":12799.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12799.65096875,"end":12799.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12799.97159375,"end":12800.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12800.039093750001,"end":12800.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12800.309093750002,"end":12800.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12800.86596875,"end":12800.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12800.899718750003,"end":12800.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12800.950343750003,"end":12820.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12801.23721875,"end":12802.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12808.577843750001,"end":12808.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12808.628468750001,"end":12808.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12808.814093750003,"end":12808.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12808.864718750003,"end":12809.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12809.97846875,"end":12810.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12819.22596875,"end":12824.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12825.081593750001,"end":12826.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12826.667843750001,"end":12833.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12826.836593750002,"end":12827.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12833.56971875,"end":12833.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12833.586593750002,"end":12833.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12833.60346875,"end":12833.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12833.62034375,"end":12833.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12833.940968750001,"end":12843.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12836.03346875,"end":12836.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12836.97846875,"end":12852.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12852.95909375,"end":12860.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12860.02971875,"end":12862.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12862.746593750002,"end":12874.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12875.33534375,"end":12890.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12890.370968750001,"end":12901.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12893.425343750001,"end":12893.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12893.47596875,"end":12893.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12902.41971875,"end":12908.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12908.140343750001,"end":12913.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12913.422218750002,"end":12913.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12914.367218750001,"end":12918.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12914.637218750002,"end":12916.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12918.974093750003,"end":12919.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12919.547843750002,"end":12922.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12922.028468750003,"end":12922.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12922.922843750002,"end":12922.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12923.192843750003,"end":12923.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12923.26034375,"end":12926.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12926.83784375,"end":12927.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12929.234093750001,"end":12930.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12934.06034375,"end":12934.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12935.089718750001,"end":12940.860968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12941.114093750002,"end":12943.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12944.067218750002,"end":12947.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12948.42096875,"end":12951.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12951.79596875,"end":12953.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12953.652218750001,"end":12957.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12957.465968750003,"end":12959.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12959.609093750001,"end":12961.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12974.813468750002,"end":12976.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12976.534718750001,"end":12977.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12984.449093750001,"end":12984.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12985.44471875,"end":12985.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12986.102843750003,"end":12988.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12989.562218750001,"end":12990.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12990.60846875,"end":12993.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12994.692218750002,"end":13000.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13002.10034375,"end":13010.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13006.96034375,"end":13008.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13010.554718750001,"end":13014.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13010.622218750003,"end":13010.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13014.773468750001,"end":13017.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13016.528468750003,"end":13016.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13018.03034375,"end":13022.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13023.126593750003,"end":13024.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13024.61159375,"end":13026.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13026.805343750002,"end":13032.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13032.762218750002,"end":13038.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13038.668468750002,"end":13043.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13043.44409375,"end":13047.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13047.409718750001,"end":13050.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13050.902843750002,"end":13055.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13055.864093750002,"end":13057.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13058.395343750002,"end":13059.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13060.53846875,"end":13062.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13063.339718750001,"end":13066.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13067.28846875,"end":13068.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13068.97596875,"end":13070.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13070.96721875,"end":13071.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13071.692843750003,"end":13080.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13081.31159375,"end":13081.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13082.52659375,"end":13084.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13085.243468750003,"end":13086.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13087.47096875,"end":13089.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13090.06971875,"end":13091.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13090.086593750002,"end":13091.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13091.942843750003,"end":13094.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13095.11534375,"end":13098.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13099.35096875,"end":13101.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13101.66284375,"end":13102.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13102.675343750001,"end":13102.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13102.82721875,"end":13103.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13104.88596875,"end":13105.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13105.965968750003,"end":13106.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13108.04159375,"end":13123.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13123.92096875,"end":13125.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13125.81096875,"end":13126.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13126.367843750002,"end":13126.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13126.97534375,"end":13127.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13128.39284375,"end":13130.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13131.14346875,"end":13132.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13133.52284375,"end":13136.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13136.50971875,"end":13137.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13138.011593750001,"end":13138.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13138.46721875,"end":13140.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13140.610343750002,"end":13144.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13144.508468750002,"end":13150.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13150.80284375,"end":13150.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13151.24159375,"end":13151.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13151.258468750002,"end":13152.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13152.96284375,"end":13155.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13156.270343750002,"end":13156.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13156.87784375,"end":13156.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13157.468468750001,"end":13157.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13157.485343750002,"end":13162.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13163.070968750002,"end":13166.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13167.019718750002,"end":13171.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13172.48721875,"end":13178.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13178.96721875,"end":13179.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13180.18221875,"end":13185.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13187.539718750002,"end":13189.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13191.218468750001,"end":13193.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13193.867843750002,"end":13200.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13200.75284375,"end":13202.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13202.49096875,"end":13203.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13204.110968750003,"end":13204.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13204.12784375,"end":13211.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13212.49784375,"end":13214.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13214.97846875,"end":13215.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13215.974093750003,"end":13220.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13220.715968750003,"end":13226.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13226.250968750002,"end":13229.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13230.030968750001,"end":13250.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13236.949718750002,"end":13237.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13239.362843750001,"end":13239.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13250.820968750002,"end":13253.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13253.470343750003,"end":13255.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13255.86659375,"end":13262.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13262.785343750002,"end":13264.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13264.320968750002,"end":13272.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13272.859718750002,"end":13273.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13274.41221875,"end":13281.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13281.516593750002,"end":13281.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13282.74846875,"end":13282.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13282.765343750001,"end":13289.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13289.937218750001,"end":13291.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13291.945343750001,"end":13298.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13298.03721875,"end":13300.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13301.04096875,"end":13303.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13303.94346875,"end":13306.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13306.238468750002,"end":13307.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13307.655968750001,"end":13310.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13311.790343750003,"end":13313.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13313.86596875,"end":13316.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13317.173468750003,"end":13318.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13318.219718750002,"end":13322.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13322.15159375,"end":13322.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13322.25284375,"end":13322.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13322.387843750003,"end":13324.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13324.851593750001,"end":13332.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13332.63096875,"end":13333.204718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13333.49159375,"end":13335.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13335.22971875,"end":13335.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13335.65159375,"end":13335.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13335.668468750002,"end":13342.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13342.199093750001,"end":13345.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13344.173468750003,"end":13345.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13345.87784375,"end":13346.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13346.012843750003,"end":13360.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13346.92409375,"end":13348.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13348.34159375,"end":13348.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13358.06159375,"end":13360.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13360.27221875,"end":13360.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13360.930343750002,"end":13363.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13364.204093750002,"end":13368.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13368.86159375,"end":13371.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13371.629093750002,"end":13375.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13375.645343750002,"end":13410.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13410.340343750002,"end":13415.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13416.17909375,"end":13420.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13420.583468750003,"end":13426.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13426.472843750002,"end":13426.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13426.77659375,"end":13427.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13427.519093750001,"end":13428.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13427.637218750002,"end":13427.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13428.09284375,"end":13428.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13428.126593750003,"end":13436.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13436.95221875,"end":13437.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13438.31909375,"end":13439.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13444.360343750002,"end":13445.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13445.676593750002,"end":13447.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13448.207843750002,"end":13451.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13458.51846875,"end":13459.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13460.15534375,"end":13461.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13462.16346875,"end":13462.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13467.37784375,"end":13478.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13479.578468750002,"end":13487.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13487.324093750001,"end":13488.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13489.450343750003,"end":13489.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13490.10846875,"end":13493.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13494.58034375,"end":13499.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13500.047843750002,"end":13501.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13501.27971875,"end":13501.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13501.313468750002,"end":13507.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13508.164718750002,"end":13516.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13512.265343750001,"end":13513.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13514.442218750002,"end":13537.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13518.492218750001,"end":13518.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13525.10721875,"end":13525.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13526.49096875,"end":13527.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13530.220343750003,"end":13533.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13537.898468750001,"end":13558.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13559.093468750001,"end":13562.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13562.805968750003,"end":13566.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13567.26096875,"end":13570.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13570.754093750002,"end":13581.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13581.722843750002,"end":13590.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13590.430343750002,"end":13592.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13593.012218750002,"end":13597.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13598.344718750002,"end":13598.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13598.969093750002,"end":13600.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13601.01096875,"end":13611.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13609.937843750002,"end":13616.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13616.87346875,"end":13616.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13616.99159375,"end":13656.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13617.44721875,"end":13618.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13656.715343750002,"end":13686.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13686.820343750001,"end":13693.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13693.77284375,"end":13703.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13702.61534375,"end":13703.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13703.965343750002,"end":13704.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13704.167843750001,"end":13704.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13704.184718750003,"end":13704.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13704.52221875,"end":13705.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13705.720343750003,"end":13705.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13705.922843750002,"end":13711.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13710.20909375,"end":13713.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13714.343468750001,"end":13726.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13726.223468750002,"end":13726.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13726.695968750002,"end":13743.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13728.67034375,"end":13730.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13741.731593750003,"end":13750.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13750.624718750001,"end":13759.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13760.90159375,"end":13766.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13765.204718750003,"end":13769.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13767.22971875,"end":13771.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13769.457218750002,"end":13770.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13770.28409375,"end":13771.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13771.44846875,"end":13784.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13771.785968750002,"end":13772.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13777.911593750003,"end":13779.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13781.269718750002,"end":13782.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13784.30721875,"end":13794.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13784.340968750003,"end":13784.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13791.023468750001,"end":13814.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13797.469718750002,"end":13800.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13811.610968750003,"end":13814.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13814.90159375,"end":13821.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13815.57659375,"end":13816.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13817.88846875,"end":13817.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13820.234093750001,"end":13837.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13823.76096875,"end":13824.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13832.738468750002,"end":13832.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13832.755343750003,"end":13833.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13838.13846875,"end":13838.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13838.222843750002,"end":13843.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13838.239718750003,"end":13839.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13841.05784375,"end":13842.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13843.065968750001,"end":13843.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13843.36971875,"end":13849.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13843.437218750001,"end":13844.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13846.238468750002,"end":13855.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13855.55346875,"end":13855.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13855.77284375,"end":13855.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13855.97534375,"end":13857.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13858.38846875,"end":13864.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13860.86909375,"end":13862.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13863.855968750002,"end":13868.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13867.433468750001,"end":13872.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13870.065968750001,"end":13870.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13872.715343750002,"end":13872.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13872.73221875,"end":13873.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13872.74909375,"end":13883.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13881.473468750002,"end":13881.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13881.625343750002,"end":13881.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13882.199093750001,"end":13888.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13887.902843750002,"end":13888.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13888.76346875,"end":13888.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13888.88159375,"end":13890.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13888.965968750003,"end":13888.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13889.45534375,"end":13912.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13911.595343750003,"end":13922.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13917.754718750002,"end":13920.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13921.09596875,"end":13956.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13931.59221875,"end":13931.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13931.625968750002,"end":13932.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13932.63846875,"end":13932.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13932.925343750001,"end":13932.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13932.97596875,"end":13934.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13934.039093750001,"end":13934.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13934.140343750001,"end":13937.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13946.813468750002,"end":13951.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13956.128468750001,"end":13958.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13959.520343750002,"end":13960.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13961.22471875,"end":13964.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13965.055343750002,"end":13965.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13967.434718750003,"end":13967.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13969.13909375,"end":13969.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13970.45534375,"end":13970.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13972.058468750001,"end":13982.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13992.899093750002,"end":13995.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13997.286593750003,"end":13998.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13999.480343750001,"end":14000.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14000.94846875,"end":14002.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14002.872218750003,"end":14003.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14004.67784375,"end":14009.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14007.934718750003,"end":14008.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14010.21284375,"end":14010.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14011.22534375,"end":14013.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14013.942218750002,"end":14016.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14017.536593750003,"end":14019.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14020.18596875,"end":14021.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14021.333468750003,"end":14021.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14022.548468750003,"end":14023.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14024.961593750002,"end":14026.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14026.598468750002,"end":14026.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14028.35346875,"end":14029.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14029.46721875,"end":14029.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14031.762218750002,"end":14033.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14034.597218750001,"end":14036.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14036.53784375,"end":14038.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14041.718468750001,"end":14041.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14042.12346875,"end":14047.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14047.523468750001,"end":14048.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14048.62034375,"end":14053.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14055.30284375,"end":14058.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14055.589718750001,"end":14058.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14059.251593750003,"end":14072.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14066.085968750001,"end":14066.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14073.49409375,"end":14079.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14080.969718750002,"end":14082.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14081.847218750001,"end":14082.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14082.99471875,"end":14085.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14085.880343750003,"end":14086.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14087.078468750002,"end":14089.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14089.761593750001,"end":14094.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14095.212218750003,"end":14099.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14099.97096875,"end":14103.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14104.206593750001,"end":14107.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14108.45909375,"end":14114.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14115.664718750002,"end":14120.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14121.250343750002,"end":14123.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14123.984093750001,"end":14126.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14127.13971875,"end":14128.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14129.14784375,"end":14129.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14130.41346875,"end":14133.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14133.83909375,"end":14139.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14139.914093750001,"end":14145.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14144.925968750002,"end":14155.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14155.844093750002,"end":14159.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14159.97846875,"end":14160.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14161.09221875,"end":14169.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14169.95159375,"end":14176.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14177.34284375,"end":14183.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14183.805968750003,"end":14194.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14183.92409375,"end":14184.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14185.054718750001,"end":14187.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14189.10471875,"end":14189.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14193.99846875,"end":14205.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14200.79909375,"end":14212.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14207.684093750002,"end":14208.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14211.210968750001,"end":14211.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14211.76784375,"end":14211.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14213.809718750003,"end":14214.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14214.704093750002,"end":14218.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14219.00721875,"end":14220.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14221.16721875,"end":14225.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14225.90909375,"end":14227.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14227.84971875,"end":14228.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14229.11534375,"end":14232.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14232.524093750002,"end":14233.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14234.27909375,"end":14234.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14235.24096875,"end":14237.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14237.417843750001,"end":14239.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14241.383468750002,"end":14241.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14242.24409375,"end":14242.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14244.15096875,"end":14245.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14245.58534375,"end":14246.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14247.15471875,"end":14252.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14253.077843750001,"end":14256.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14257.60034375,"end":14258.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14259.473468750002,"end":14259.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14259.96284375,"end":14260.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14260.064093750003,"end":14260.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14261.71784375,"end":14263.017218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14263.017218750003,"end":14263.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14263.77659375,"end":14263.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14263.962218750003,"end":14264.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14264.957843750002,"end":14274.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14273.95221875,"end":14280.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14278.69409375,"end":14279.892218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14280.972218750001,"end":14286.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14282.085968750001,"end":14282.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14286.794093750003,"end":14294.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14292.599093750003,"end":14293.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14294.77596875,"end":14298.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14299.31534375,"end":14301.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14302.11659375,"end":14305.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14306.36909375,"end":14307.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14308.934093750002,"end":14310.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14310.722843750002,"end":14310.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14311.33034375,"end":14311.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14311.347218750001,"end":14321.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14311.48221875,"end":14312.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14319.970343750003,"end":14322.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14322.99096875,"end":14324.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14325.235343750002,"end":14326.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14327.715968750003,"end":14328.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14328.79596875,"end":14333.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14329.859093750001,"end":14330.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14334.297218750002,"end":14339.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14338.954718750003,"end":14339.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14339.02221875,"end":14339.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14340.625343750002,"end":14345.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14345.65409375,"end":14347.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14347.93221875,"end":14349.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14350.14284375,"end":14351.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14351.47596875,"end":14351.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14351.492843750002,"end":14351.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14353.24784375,"end":14355.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14355.964718750001,"end":14357.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14357.68596875,"end":14357.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14357.922218750002,"end":14361.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14362.731593750003,"end":14366.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14366.44409375,"end":14368.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14368.40159375,"end":14368.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14369.29596875,"end":14372.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14373.177218750003,"end":14381.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14382.087218750003,"end":14384.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14384.83784375,"end":14387.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14388.65159375,"end":14402.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14402.82659375,"end":14409.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14409.441593750002,"end":14409.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14410.04909375,"end":14410.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14410.065968750001,"end":14418.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14418.452843750001,"end":14419.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14419.718468750001,"end":14421.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14421.23721875,"end":14421.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14422.43534375,"end":14429.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14426.805968750003,"end":14427.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14429.067218750002,"end":14430.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14429.08409375,"end":14430.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14430.67034375,"end":14444.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14435.766593750002,"end":14436.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14443.731593750003,"end":14444.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14444.625968750002,"end":14452.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14453.097218750001,"end":14454.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14454.599093750003,"end":14458.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14459.340968750003,"end":14461.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14462.969093750002,"end":14466.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14464.184093750002,"end":14464.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14467.035968750002,"end":14478.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14477.39721875,"end":14479.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14479.067843750003,"end":14479.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14479.30409375,"end":14486.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14481.88596875,"end":14481.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14486.40846875,"end":14497.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14497.84971875,"end":14501.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14502.86159375,"end":14504.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14505.76409375,"end":14508.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14509.527218750001,"end":14510.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14510.60721875,"end":14512.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14511.88971875,"end":14512.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14512.969718750002,"end":14522.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14522.099093750003,"end":14531.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14532.66284375,"end":14537.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14533.962218750003,"end":14534.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14537.539718750002,"end":14541.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14542.19721875,"end":14549.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14543.85096875,"end":14544.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14549.774093750002,"end":14558.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14558.633468750002,"end":14563.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14563.898468750001,"end":14565.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14566.328468750002,"end":14567.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14567.89784375,"end":14570.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14571.72846875,"end":14582.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14575.96409375,"end":14577.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14582.950343750003,"end":14586.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14586.257843750001,"end":14586.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14586.747218750003,"end":14588.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14588.97471875,"end":14590.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14590.03784375,"end":14592.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14590.93221875,"end":14591.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14592.974093750003,"end":14593.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14593.024718750003,"end":14593.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14593.446593750003,"end":14593.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14600.449718750002,"end":14601.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14602.96409375,"end":14604.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14607.925343750001,"end":14635.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14637.18659375,"end":14638.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14638.70534375,"end":14640.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14640.629093750002,"end":14640.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14640.96659375,"end":14641.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14643.312218750001,"end":14646.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14654.027843750002,"end":14657.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14655.85034375,"end":14656.559093750002}],"whisperx":[{"start":121.715,"end":123.387,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":370.406,"end":371.234,"text":"主席"},{"start":806.641,"end":807.203,"text":"主席"},{"start":849.091,"end":869.777,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":1148.387,"end":1149.906,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1186.902,"end":1191.456,"text":"主席"},{"start":1235.597,"end":1244.864,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1275.725,"end":1276.954,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1513.284,"end":1514.494,"text":"主席"},{"start":1575.277,"end":1577.112,"text":"主席"},{"start":1617.031,"end":1635.668,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1771.38,"end":1792.591,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會進行報告事項請宣讀邀請農業部部長就農業移工政策改善措施進行報告並備質詢宣讀完畢好我們謝謝議事主那本日的議程排定是農業移工政策改善措施進行報告並備質詢我們現在就請農業部部長陳俊記部長進行報告"},{"start":1809.688,"end":1834.087,"text":"主席、各位委員那經濟農業部應邀到經濟委員會來報告有關於農業移工政策改善的一個措施那首先還是再度感謝我們所有的委員長期來對於我們農業的一個相關的議題的一個關心然後也提出了非常多的一個建議那以下就農業移工的政策與檢報的方式跟各位說明那檢報大綱請參閱"},{"start":1837.052,"end":1855.233,"text":"當你去討論缺工的時候我想我們先去了解一下現在目前農業的一個從業人口那根據主計總署的一個調查110年度的人口大概是50.9萬人那他的年齡大概在53.5歲那雖然說這個年齡是有逐步有點上升的一個趨勢"},{"start":1856.374,"end":1876.366,"text":"那針對勞動地的一個調查在112年度我們啟動了一個調查那我們調查的對象是以主力農家為對象大概是21.1萬戶的農家你們去做抽樣的調查那調查的結果顯示大概有6%的這些主力農家他有一個缺工的就是有一些缺工的一個現象"},{"start":1877.206,"end":1896.38,"text":"這些缺工的部分大概分為兩個部分一個部分是一個就是他需要比較長期的這種長期的一個員工那另外一部分是因為他季節性的採收需要一些臨時的這些員工那以長期的員工來講他缺工數大概是2345戶那缺工人次大概是4505次"},{"start":1898.621,"end":1909.206,"text":"人次就是以這樣子的一個數據他的缺工的樣態並不一樣那同樣的就是臨時缺工的部分缺工數大概有10731戶那如果說以缺工人次來看的話是86000多人次"},{"start":1916.289,"end":1932.134,"text":"那如果說以地區來看的話整個缺工不管是常務的員工或者是臨時的員工大概是以中部地區為主他的缺工的現象是比較嚴重接下來是南部的地區那東部的地區相對的是比較少的"},{"start":1934.326,"end":1950.196,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1950.676,"end":1969.014,"text":"一百十四萬一千多但是經過我們的一些努力各方面的一個努力來降低這些缺工的需求那也看到了一個滿顯著的一個成果他在不管是在整個的一個季節性缺工的部分有一個顯著的一個下降"},{"start":1970.46,"end":1985.055,"text":"針對農糧的部分其實也有這樣的現象然後畜牧的部分它的下降的趨勢更明顯對移工的需求顯現說我們目前的政策政策的推動是對於缺工事業的一個解決是有幫助的"},{"start":1986.869,"end":2010.616,"text":"接下來我想跟各位報告就是針對農業部門的一個缺工那農業部本身大概用兩個方面去做處理第一個方面就是我們想辦法穩定我們的人力的供給甚至於增加這個人力的供給那第二個部分就是我們想辦法去減少對人力的一個需求那針對人力的穩定跟增加的供給裡面"},{"start":2012.436,"end":2036.813,"text":"最主要是就是引入了這些外籍的移工來協助我們本身的一個農事的一個操作那到目前為止我們接受就是跟勞動部爭取的是大概一萬兩千人來做這樣的處理那包括還有其他的外國的青農跟農業的實習那除了外籍移工以外其實本國的這些"},{"start":2038.334,"end":2064.537,"text":"人員去增加農事的一個協助的部分也是非常重要的所以我們建立了區域性的農業的人力的調度那相對的我們成立了49個人力團那這個人力團每年穩定的招生大概1500個人那他服務的一個農場的家屬大概5000人那第二個部分是更重要的就是我們一直政策一直在推的就是當人力沒辦法滿足的時候我們想辦法去減少人力的需求"},{"start":2065.297,"end":2091.887,"text":"特別推動了相關的農機的積耕團跟農機的一個共享機制現在目前大概有15團跟5個專案去做為這種農事的一個服務業那整個移工因為今天的主題是針對移工的部分那我們先review一下我們現在目前的移工的一個開放歷程那其實108年我們就開始示範當初只是從乳牛開始就是外展的乳牛大概800人"},{"start":2092.667,"end":2107.117,"text":"到了112年的時候我們已經達到112000人左右所以相對的針對移工來解決我們部分的缺工問題其實人數的增加是對我們整個政策是有幫助的"},{"start":2108.993,"end":2129.224,"text":"整個移工的聘僱模式大概分為兩個模式一個模式是屬於季節性缺工的部分那這些季節性缺工的部分他是用外展服務的方式他最主要是由我們的農業會或合作社來聘僱那聘僱的時候他會根據當地的需求來做一個外展的服務"},{"start":2131.885,"end":2152.031,"text":"主要是針對季節性的缺工當然有需要的時候就是派遣出去另外一部分是長期性的缺工長期性的缺工最主要是我在這個農場或在這個畜牧場或是在這個漁務廊之上我幾乎每天都需要相關的人力這樣一個前提之下我可以自行聘戶來外籍移工來協助我的一個農事的操作"},{"start":2152.748,"end":2168.04,"text":"那整個申請的規範我想在這邊就請大家做參閱那最主要是合配比的部分那我們也非常的努力去爭取的我們現在在10人以下的這些農戶或農民團體他跟本勞跟外勞比他可以達到1比1"},{"start":2169.875,"end":2191.252,"text":"那如果說我們看整個移工的一個情況的話我想在農糧部分還是占多數大概是4000人蓄墨的話4000人那林業的部分是相對比較少那漁業的部分其實那從這張圖表可以看得出來那整個的一個移工的情況在做外展服務大概"},{"start":2192.213,"end":2199.6,"text":"有相關的2472人是在做外診的部分那6000多人是在做長期性的一個故工"},{"start":2201.072,"end":2224.67,"text":"如果我們去分析這些移工他從事的這些產業別的部分那最主要還是以農糧為主然後畜牧、赤枝那其他的包括養殖業跟林業的部分那如果說以派工的情形的部分來看的話那相對的就是還是以農糧為主那相對的外產服務可以佔的29%那畜牧的話大概整個的整體外產服務的話那大概佔的7.69%"},{"start":2227.765,"end":2248.416,"text":"除了人力的部分我剛才也提到就是說當我人力沒有辦法滿足的時候我一方面透過就是減少人力的需求那我們推動了非常多的農業的機械耕作那現在目前我們有15團5個專案來處理這個积工團的部分就是類似代耕中心的農事的服務業那它涵蓋的作物項有16種"},{"start":2249.477,"end":2269.812,"text":"那整個的耕作面積大概將近在3000多公頃左右那113年度的時候我們更期待更要進一步的在我們的新政策裡面我們的目標就是一個主要的產區的鄉鎮就是一個農事服務業就是一個雞耕團的農事服務業來協助這些需要工的一個情況"},{"start":2271.564,"end":2294.822,"text":"那在整個經濟作為部分大概分為幾個面向那第一個面向就是我們雖然說一萬兩千人是到目前的一個合配比現在目前大概有八千五百多人那我們預估在年底就會滿了所以我們現在也啟動了一些調查我們會再積極的來向勞動部來爭取他的一個緣額的一個開放能增加我們的勞動部的一個緣額"},{"start":2296.003,"end":2315.575,"text":"第二個部分是長期性的缺工的部分目前10年以下的農場是1比1的合配比相關的10年以上的這些農場它還是35%我們希望說透過我們的爭取也能夠把它降到1比1這樣的話我覺得這是一個非常重要的我們的關鍵"},{"start":2316.596,"end":2340.706,"text":"那相對的我們現在農場是越來越大那相對的動不動可能都超過10個人我們希望說10個人以上也能夠用一比一這個我想我們會努力的跟勞動部來爭取那除了人力的合併比以外還有一個非常重要的就是我們會降低很多的門檻就是從事這些農作物的一個門檻包括草皮或增加像包括草皮、芽菜"},{"start":2341.306,"end":2364.381,"text":"那水稻育苗已經有了但是它的面積現在的門檻比較高我們也希望做適度的調整包括使用菇類那對於短期的這些需要短期的這些缺工以外因為我們現在的這些外展工都是在同一個區域裡面做調派沒辦法跨區可是現在我們有非常多的一個同一種作物的收穫是從南到北"},{"start":2365.714,"end":2388.808,"text":"那換句話說當你這個做向水稻從南到北的時候你的代耕團就可以從南一直收同一個團可以從南部一直收到北部那也會減少了這些代耕業者的需求所以我們現在嘗試著去做這個這個外展移工可以跨區調派的一個計畫那也希望都透過強化的合作管理來擴大一個方式"},{"start":2389.968,"end":2417.155,"text":"最後我想跟各位委員說明就是我們農業部一直非常重視缺工的議題然後我們也分別針對兩個方式包括想辦法去增加人力那另外一部分就是當人力沒辦法滿足的時候我們想辦法去提高它的機械化自動化的一個程度來減少對勞力的一個需求那過程中我想我們隨時都在跟農民做相關的這些討論然後也解決他們的所謂的困難"},{"start":2417.961,"end":2418.421,"text":"好,我們謝謝部長的報告"},{"start":2442.185,"end":2466.954,"text":"我們現在勞動部的書面報告我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那委員勳答前主席台依照慣例我們做幾項的宣告每位委員發言的時間本委會6分鐘必要時延長1分鐘非本委會4分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記我們首先要請登記第一位的林黛樺委員發言請"},{"start":2470.765,"end":2471.106,"text":"有請部長我們請陳部長"},{"start":2479.145,"end":2503.716,"text":"委員長今天針對兩個議題一個是農業資訊安全一個是農業勞動力缺乏資訊安全的部分本席要提出一個案例我們來進行剖析討論第二個在農金署針對農業資訊的這兩個一個單位你們是否有公平對待針對南農中心跟農金資訊公司好再者再次我們農業勞動力匱乏好這邊部長要請您表態治安"},{"start":2508.158,"end":2532.553,"text":"是不是國安?如果是你能夠接受您的下面各部各屬施各單位違反治安原則嗎?第三個你能夠接受您所有下面的各單位在處理民眾爭議的時候是不公平的嗎?這三個您必須要執行表態我才能夠繼續的來跟您討論"},{"start":2535.234,"end":2537.115,"text":"您能夠接受您下面的單位違反治安的原則嗎?"},{"start":2553.919,"end":2554.799,"text":"我 我想"},{"start":2584.353,"end":2598.74,"text":"我們來看這個案例最近才發生在這個我就先以這張圖一個是神崗農會這是受害者他的旁邊呢這叫無辜的受害者"},{"start":2600.001,"end":2617.883,"text":"這邊有農金資公司南農中心 那農金資公司我說過 這家公司政府百分百支持 不要說政府啦 就是農業金庫百分百投資 但是他完全所有業務都在外包 沒有設計人員 所有的維護也是都是外包"},{"start":2618.464,"end":2629.813,"text":"好那也沒關係反正你們接受嘛你們認為農業部有錢嘛好但是呢他竟然允許外包公司進到神農區農會然後呢去竊取南農中心在神崗農會的資料而且呢我為什麼說竊取這已經是從商業競爭當中的商業間諜了"},{"start":2641.201,"end":2662.495,"text":"因為他用了一個任何的資訊系統其實這兩方不管南農中心或農經資他們是有約定軟體的甚至你看這個末端獨立系統南農中心都有規範的好所以呢你在農經資公司你運行的外包在約定作業範圍外的木馬城市"},{"start":2663.536,"end":2677.451,"text":"你用了這個在這個在這個這個神鋼農會當中的這個外包公司叫商商商商的末端來竊取南農中心的資料好也那這個呢你們來這邊"},{"start":2680.675,"end":2696.136,"text":"我怎麼知道從去年在今年5月的時候南龍中心檢測就發現到高頻率的交易異常性每6秒固定竊取共66000餘次經查是非約定的程式"},{"start":2697.025,"end":2711.744,"text":"好 這個都已經這個我為了齁好來我們來看你能夠允許你的部會農金屬是怎麼樣的處理他今天7月4號要開個會他也出席喔邀了農金資喔已經南農中心結果你們說什麼我只針對"},{"start":2714.447,"end":2740.314,"text":"受害者叫做神鋼農會信用部跟受害者南農中心的轉換系統的爭議來釐清問題你加害著農經公司你是不處理的我為了來質詢這個東西本期邀請了誰邀請了國安這個治安我們國家在處理這個治安是哪一個部門速發部我邀請速發部下面的治安院公共工程委員會經管會"},{"start":2741.954,"end":2743.055,"text":"我找了4個單位來來確認這個案情這樣的分析結果你看你們農金署啊"},{"start":2763.188,"end":2765.129,"text":"所以我請了四個單位來好所以呢這個下面下面"},{"start":2781.55,"end":2786.491,"text":"那這個議題最後您再來回應我先針對農業勞動力的問題我們現在農業農家戶啊76萬戶農家的人口數是239萬人我實質農牧的從業戶是多少76萬降為35萬只有一半在從事而這35萬當中的高齡農牧戶65歲上的佔46%"},{"start":2807.395,"end":2822.529,"text":"而我們來看產值這個是我們行政院主計處提供的在這個農林漁牧業這個的產值從108到我們去年112我的農業產值的逐年比是持平而且還逐年下降"},{"start":2823.71,"end":2842.407,"text":"當然這樣的微幅下降表示什麼我獲利期望低啊所以農業從業人口從在將近10年前104年這10年來我減少了5萬人關鍵原因就是我農業對年輕世代的吸引力不足所以農業去工不是未來是他是一個進行式"},{"start":2844.616,"end":2865.208,"text":"好 那這個你們現在的農業引進外勞是利益良善規則清楚但是是不盡現實你們的規定說這個10人以下一共一比一甚至容器這個我都沒有意見但是重點是你什麼叫不盡事實你說這個租約一定要3年以上你才可以申請外勞好 來往下"},{"start":2867.952,"end":2874.118,"text":"那你這個通常我們是小農喔我們大概1.1公頃大概一甲一甲大概就是呢我夫妻倆或者是我這個一個人到兩個人的作業能力我就可以處理完所以我平常我不可能去請一個外這個移工啊請不起啊但我什麼時候需要對於這小農來講我們是需要他在產收的時候採收的時候我是需要的所以本席是支持你剛才講的"},{"start":2893.575,"end":2923.575,"text":"臺湯"},{"start":2923.575,"end":2938.746,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":2939.666,"end":2963.171,"text":"我具體要求第一個請農業部接同訴發部因為訴發部既然是國安主責治安針對農經資訊公司及委外業者利用神鋼農會系統轉放從事非約定的軟體程式安裝進行調查如果這個行為屬實本席要求兩個要處理第一個農經公司撤換外包公司"},{"start":2964.091,"end":2970.637,"text":"第二個避免求援兼裁判農經資訊公司的董事長不應該由農業金庫副總監任為什麼?農經資公司是誰在支持農業金庫?百分百!農業金庫是誰支持?你農業部跟全國的農漁會耶我不相信我全國的農漁會跟我的農業部接受這樣的治安高風險的商業的一個竊取"},{"start":2990.394,"end":3004.748,"text":"這表示你農漁會都接受我如果種農這樣的一個外包公司隨意的進入到我任何一個農會來竊取資料那表示你農業部所有各部門的資料也都可以由外面的所有任何公司來駭客你"},{"start":3006.87,"end":3018.917,"text":"這是何等嚴重所以我要求我這個已經低度喔我還沒有針對農經資公司來做處罰我只說撤換他的外包公司怎麼可以這樣維護怎麼這麼一點這個資訊安全而且因為商業競爭已經叫商業間諜了商業間諜不是本期講的是我們這四個單位告訴我的"},{"start":3031.448,"end":3055.46,"text":"還有求員兼裁辦農經公司你不應該有農業金庫副總來兼任這是我認為應該該有的如果是屬實的話至少本期我也做出我自己該有的調查那你們也應該要做起該有的調查這是你要回應的第二個我農民跟農業機構有關外籍農業移工的部分評估以農業行為來認定或者是租地契約跟台糖一樣就是改為兩年以"},{"start":3056.34,"end":3064.626,"text":"以下呢我就可以兩年了我就可以來聘請外勞什麼叫做農業行為認定譬如說我雖然這樣才兩年啊可是我之前的租約跟一樣這塊土地同樣的租約行為那我已經租了兩年了那我是不是可以合併起來我就達到三年這是一種我沒改你三年但是可以用合併的那另外一種是好我的這個租約就是跟我台堂的這個租約是一樣的或者你就去協調台堂嘛"},{"start":3083.518,"end":3105.171,"text":"第三個這個是您剛才這個有講到的以區域地區農會來申請農業移工提供區域農業勞動力的短期需求請你簡單回應這三個問題治安農業缺工我想非常簡單的回應就是有關於剛才講的這些農經濟公司跟南農還有一些農會之間的關係我想我們會分兩個階段一個階段是先去釐清"},{"start":3106.792,"end":3122.278,"text":"現象是什麼現象是什麼然後必要如果是真正的那個現象如剛才委員所說的這樣的一個惡意的這種竊取的話那一定會去做很非常嚴肅的一個調查那我們必要者也會請那個塑化部來協助那第二個部分"},{"start":3122.978,"end":3144.322,"text":"我想針對農地的部分就是缺工的部分我們也一直在鬆綁那包括您剛才講的那個三年的部分其實現在我們已經有鬆綁了就是只要你拿出續業的部分但是相對的我們會用地的概念從事的行為去處理我想我們會持續的檢討你那三年沒解決你的規定因為你的辦法很清楚就三年台糖是兩年沒關係我沒有意見如果你要堅持就繼續讓大農戶沒有辦法已經外來吧好你們來檢討好謝謝"},{"start":3151.343,"end":3151.363,"text":"蕭麗芸議員"},{"start":3177.451,"end":3189.882,"text":"委員長部長早部長我想首先我們感謝主席拍定這個農業移工的問題那這個問題其實我們過去在委員會裡頭也討論過相當多次部長我讓您看一下"},{"start":3191.805,"end":3215.826,"text":"這個大概是我稍微整理一下我們整個農業移工開放的這些歷程包括說初期的開放事辦是只有800人而且主要是從這個應該是這個飼養畜牧業為大宗然後慢慢的包括這個納入這個農保勞保員工人數他們其實是就可以申請移工的人數一直到現在"},{"start":3217.367,"end":3217.627,"text":"8500多 大概七成"},{"start":3234.929,"end":3259.998,"text":"7層好所以你們預估到今年年底這1.2萬就會全部用到對是的那接下來怎麼辦我想跟委員報告現在我們已經啟動一個機制就是說像現在已經到7層的時候其實我們已經調查現在就是外面需要的大概8000人所以我們不會等到沒有的時候才開始向勞動部申請我們現在就會啟動一個機制去跟勞動部申請所以你們已經開始要跟勞動部談了嗎開始談了沒對"},{"start":3262.679,"end":3270.361,"text":"已經在跟他們做溝通 因為調查大概8000人啊那我們希望說在年底之前能夠銜接 不會說有一個空窗期"},{"start":3270.834,"end":3288.038,"text":"昨天勞動部簽署了跟台灣跟印度的合作的MOU看起來是沒有包含農業移工這一塊我覺得或許可以跟勞動部再談一下部長我要跟您講我們在講農業缺工的問題我現在就只舉我美農農會在申請這些農業移工的現況美農農會因為我們在美農種野蓮的非常多"},{"start":3298.82,"end":3318.093,"text":"所以他一共跟農業部申請了5次總共核准了97人這中間大概有逃逸3個那要給部長看一下現在申請農業移工看起來沒有那麼困難跟複雜但是這個薪資的比例"},{"start":3319.354,"end":3336.365,"text":"我們現在的所有的移工都必須符合台灣的勞基法勞基法它有規定它的工時跟最低的薪資比例這個是現在我們統計出來如果就今年度來看申請一個移工他的薪水大概要付到將近4萬3千塊"},{"start":3338.925,"end":3361.19,"text":"快要比本國的勞工還要高啦我覺得有可能而且還要負擔他的時數那對於野蓮我是講單一個產品野蓮就好野蓮今年的市場拍賣價格其實是不好的所以他請一個移工基本上他快要沒有辦法負擔這個移工的薪水那面對這樣的一個問題"},{"start":3363.01,"end":3391.702,"text":"包括工時很多時候他們你知道農民的工作他不是說從早上9點到下午5點很容易計算工時他常常有可能是必須清晨天沒有亮以前就開始工作中間像現在太陽這麼大他其實是沒有辦法工作的到下午5、6點太陽下山了又再持續他的下一個階段的工作所以他的工時計算也會產生問題那如果是這樣的話農業部跟勞動部之間有沒有想出一個"},{"start":3399.508,"end":3417.063,"text":"對農民來講是一個很沉重的負擔他要申請外勞也不是不申請也不是好那這個外勞來呢很多時候比如說像野蓮的我們還要必須跟他講這個是要泡在水裡一整天所以美農逃跑的那三個基本上是因為無法適應所以逃跑"},{"start":3418.362,"end":3427.429,"text":"今年年底我們有訓練所謂的御荷包採收御荷包的人所以你的農業移工來到台灣要搭配什麼樣的"},{"start":3428.729,"end":3458.729,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3459.73,"end":3484.364,"text":"中南部有非常多的外配那如果我們能夠讓這一些外配的親人來到台灣依親打工我不知道我過去提出這樣的一個政策想法的時候農業部有沒有思考過那我的了解過去是被勞動部打槍但是其實我們剛剛講到了這一些農業的問題"},{"start":3486.085,"end":3494.59,"text":"新資甚至我想外配如果他們的親人能夠來到台灣依親打工對於新資的給付"},{"start":3495.638,"end":3516.52,"text":"是一個負擔會大幅減輕更重要的是這個外配在他的家庭裡頭他的家人來協助他的嫁過來的這個家庭來做這樣農事的工作其實相對來講他在這個家庭的地位是會大幅提高然後也能夠完整的協助這些農事作業部長您怎麼看"},{"start":3517,"end":3545.775,"text":"我提出來的這樣的一個建立方式謝謝委員的這些關心那我想幾個問題就是彈性工時的部分其實農業部現在是符合勞基法的四周所以他已經不受限在那個週休二日還有就朝九晚五的這樣的一個規範他是可以在四周裡面去做一個彈性的調整我想這個部分我想勞動部這邊已經把農業部納入了那第二個部分薪資的部分的確就是委員所說的他的薪資水平快要跟本國的一樣高了"},{"start":3546.215,"end":3548.276,"text":"現在目前能夠透過這種所謂的強化這種外展的的機能能夠跨區也好來做一個協助"},{"start":3564.744,"end":3584.321,"text":"所以跟部長你要知道我們現在透過所謂外長功能你要讓農會大部分的農會都不會願意做這樣的配合因為他要負擔的這些安全成本其實是遠高過你的想像對另外還有一個就是說如果說本身如果能夠結合我們現在在努力去調整10人以上的這個農場的合配比"},{"start":3586.002,"end":3607.064,"text":"你如果說有一個類似合作共同經營的這樣模式的話大家分擔這樣一個人力可能它的效率會比較高所以這個部分我想我們也會來努力您講的這個都是現在已經在做包括農場10人以上的這個農場合作社等等他們能夠來申請這些外在移工不過它的合配比不行這是3比1"},{"start":3608.095,"end":3633.21,"text":"對嘛,所以他其實還是少的嘛好,如果能夠變成1比1那當然這是一個得證啦但我講的這個所謂的一清打工這件事情我覺得這個其實真的是可以認真的思考啦我想一清打工以農業部來講是非常贊成那我們也跟勞動部溝通了非常久那基本上現在的問題是卡在勞動部說這樣的一個意見還是照原來的遊戲規則走啦"},{"start":3634.71,"end":3646.336,"text":"那用現在的遊戲規則去走而且是在我們的總配額裡面去扣那我覺得這樣的話反而沒有幫助你是說照我們原來申請外產移工的總配額下去扣我是覺得勞動部這個思維太過僵化了我認為應該帶著他們實際到"},{"start":3657.022,"end":3678.78,"text":"﹗"},{"start":3678.8,"end":3679.48,"text":"接下來我們請黃國昌委員請做巡討"},{"start":3708.412,"end":3734.754,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是麻煩有請部長我們再請陳部長喂吼部長好上一次你們說昌市的案子回函說已經移送北捷了請問什麼時候移送我都沒有記出來是五月底六月初的時候五月底六月初的時候我記得我都沒有記出來請這調查報告什麼時候做出來的"},{"start":3735.495,"end":3763.905,"text":"行政調查報告的過程大概在五月五月初五月大概是四月還是五月我們在調查因為沒有關係什麼時候做好的沒有最後的定版大概在五月的七應該是七號前後啦所以你們有一個定版的完整行政調查報告嗎對就是說完整的行政調查報告什麼時候可以交出來對不起我沒有聽清楚"},{"start":3764.95,"end":3791.144,"text":"剛剛你不是說到5月的時候有一個定版的行政調查報告嗎?那份行政調查報告什麼時候可以交出來?我想我們提供給委員的就是行政調查報告但是因為部分的這些資訊我們已經已檢地檢署的時候地檢調查的時候我們把時序先講清楚啦你行政調查報告完整做完了以後然後你接下來移送北檢現在交出來的行政調查報告是只有部分的內容對不對?是"},{"start":3792.768,"end":3821.841,"text":"為什麼不提供完整的行政調查報告你說會涉及到偵查不公開嗎來我秀給你看當初在處理八八會館事件的時候一樣有刑事偵辦我們的高檢署新北地檢署內政部警政署完整的行政調查報告全部都交出來為什麼農業部的做法不一樣難道我們的高檢署地檢署我們農業政部所交出來的行政調查報告都是違法的"},{"start":3823.066,"end":3838.095,"text":"你還是堅持不交就對了嗎?我跟委員報告齁,別的部位我不清楚齁但是在相關的這些我們今天調查報告裡面有涉及到已經移交給地檢署的部分那這個部分我們是根據政府公開自檢法裡面的相關的規定去做一個處理的"},{"start":3838.9,"end":3865.112,"text":"沒關係啊你有你的主張啊你的主張站不站得住腳我們以後會繼續追下去今天時間的關係我還有很多問題要問你們的次長跟媒體說日本進口的雞蛋沒有行政的問題結果話才講一天你們就公開承認了裡面最起碼就有關於倉儲的部分運輸的部分違反政府採購法對不對"},{"start":3868.018,"end":3869.279,"text":"針對2022年超市進口雞蛋,超市的服務費付了多少錢?"},{"start":3885.288,"end":3885.609,"text":"道貨買斷的價格怎麼計算?"},{"start":3901.328,"end":3916.184,"text":"那到貨買完的價格根據市長會的一個說明是他根據因為他是每個月都有的時候他會根據當月的日本的相關的這些資訊跟我們國內相關的這些資訊包括他的關稅等去做一個綜合評估"},{"start":3917.085,"end":3940.124,"text":"怎麼評估的數據可不可以交出來我想這個部分是一個相關的一個執行細節他那個評估沒有關係啦你現在講嘛沒有付超私沒有付超私任何服務費那我現在的問題就在想說原來超私是在做功德的那個價格裡面啊從超私日本進來一公斤均價多少錢"},{"start":3942.81,"end":3955.085,"text":"一公斤軍價多少錢我不是非常清楚來你計算完了以後一公斤的軍價大概一百二十四塊一百二十四塊這個錢到底怎麼出來的成本結構 細項可不可以交出來"},{"start":3956.51,"end":3976.106,"text":"我不是非常清楚說這樣子一個最後的價格的一個細項 因為他們本身是買斷的方式 那買斷的方式他們的經費是有一個... 你看嘛 你們列出來的淨重多少 發票的價格多少 除完了大概就一公斤多少錢嘛 你現在裡面講說沒有服務費嘛"},{"start":3978.549,"end":3986.487,"text":"現在我就在質疑啊現在大家在問的是這個超市的利潤在裡面一公斤124塊超市拿了多少錢嘛"},{"start":3988.137,"end":3990.278,"text":"大家在關心的事情是那個價格到底怎麼決定的嘛"},{"start":4009.17,"end":4014.313,"text":"你到現在我跟你說你說沒有服務費沒有關係阿那你總要有一個決定價格的機制吧有一個機制我想這個機制是可以提供的我所瞭解"},{"start":4031.583,"end":4038.287,"text":"決定的機制是可以提供,一定有一個決定的機制,但是決定的細節需要多久?需要多久?一個禮拜可以吧?錢早就付了吧?因為你一開始口口聲聲跟大家講說只有超輸有能力進口嘛"},{"start":4054.02,"end":4061.183,"text":"這個是你當初在回答的時候答覆的內容嘛我記得我沒有說只有超私才有能力進口今天沒這樣說來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":4083.666,"end":4088.132,"text":"是你們回答給我白紙黑字的欸來我們來看一下喔這個是關務署調出來的資料"},{"start":4092.52,"end":4092.68,"text":"是吧?"},{"start":4092.68,"end":4092.7,"text":"是"},{"start":4120.123,"end":4140.061,"text":"奇怪,那亮彩後面進來的這些蛋到哪裡去了?是給中央續產會嗎?我跟委員說明齁亮彩的部分是他的合約是2到4月那4月以後的所有的買蛋不管是任何貿易商進來的都是用貨到付款的方式這個非常清楚啊對,所以我現在還是在問你嘛當初你跟大家講的"},{"start":4141.348,"end":4151.235,"text":"是只有昌司有意願嘛但我從關務署調出來的看從這個B廠商進口的數量我合理判斷啊這個B廠商這個B廠商是我們來看一下具體的數量嘛我最後因為主席站起來了我只問一個最關鍵的問題"},{"start":4167.099,"end":4168.7,"text":"對阿 到目前為止 你說每一筆都可以提供 來來來"},{"start":4194.485,"end":4221.014,"text":"我給部長看我從6月14日所知的東西到現在沒回覆我的辦公室幾乎是打電話每天去求農業部的什麼時候可以回覆永遠的答案都是還在簽和還在簽和還在簽和今天部長說可以提供非常的好請問部長需要多久不要讓我辦公室的同仁每天打電話去拜託你們的國會聯絡人要一個資料我好像在乞討一樣"},{"start":4222.868,"end":4236.73,"text":"需要多久我跟委員說明齁就是每一筆我們付款的資料的日期應該都已經很清楚的這個表但應該都有我剛剛的問題是由超司取得輸入許可我跟你們調"},{"start":4238.103,"end":4257.208,"text":"你們檢驗所的輸入許可局裡面的人說好了但是在部裡面簽合現在公文流量到哪裡我不知道我今天請教我非常卑微的要求你非常卑微的請求你這個數字什麼時候可以提供我想我不敢因為我非常尊重立法委員"},{"start":4258.648,"end":4260.09,"text":"所以這個什麼時候可以提供?什麼時候可以提供?什麼時候可以提供?來來來,那個部長,因為時間後面委員都在等待,那部長"},{"start":4281.591,"end":4294.376,"text":"是不是就剛剛黃國昌委員所需要的資料你就在一個禮拜之內提供給黃國昌委員我想我們要先聽一下我們所知的內容所知的內容很簡單啊"},{"start":4295.836,"end":4303.281,"text":"因為我們是買斷的我們是針對誰給我們的是要輸入許可我看輸入許可上面的名義是誰就知道了嗎這個你已經說過了請你回到問題的本身輸入許可可不可以移工輸入許可是誰發的"},{"start":4326.041,"end":4350.459,"text":"公務署發的嗎?還是誰發的?不是啦!雞蛋輸入檢疫的許可是你們農業部發的欸檢疫的許可是我們可不可以提供?檢疫的部分是應該如果是有的話我們就應該可以提供可以提供需要多久?因為我到目前為止所知到現在要不到嘛需要多久?這個也需要一個禮拜我早就發公文去要了欸"},{"start":4352.438,"end":4352.919,"text":"所以我剛剛沒有講錯嘛我早就要了嘛"},{"start":4359.687,"end":4388.491,"text":"你公文還在履行嗎?需要多久?我們還是針對問題那請農業部剛剛委員所提出他有兩項兩項要的資料不只啦我剛剛只是藉由那個巡檔剛剛那個所知的部分公文他們那邊都有啦我要的資訊一項一項一項一項我寫得非常的清楚全部在後面我量給召委看這個是6月14日就要所知的內容這個是6月19日就要所知的內容"},{"start":4390.841,"end":4402.39,"text":"包括你剛剛答應的輸入許可那件簡易的輸入許可那件事情需要多久?三天之內給好不好?他如果出來三天之內一定可以給三天之內可以給嗎?簡易證的部分嗎?"},{"start":4404.714,"end":4428.961,"text":"檢疫症的部分嗎?前面所知的部分一併三天之內給可以嗎?如果我問的問題你說我不知道我沒有資訊這是機密那你就這樣回覆就好了嗎?所知剛剛最後一點就三天內回覆給黃委員其他的部分請一個禮拜之內務必要給黃委員好不好因為他已經從6月14 19已經陸續要給你們這個請"},{"start":4434.242,"end":4434.262,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":4456.232,"end":4466.197,"text":"我們請農業部照剛剛所說約定的時間請把資料送出 謝謝接下來我們請鄭正賢委員請做詢答謝謝主席我想請一下陳部長還有我們勞動部陳祖密好我們請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":4488.162,"end":4512.111,"text":"部長好 說實話 措施蛋的事情能夠扯這麼久 我們也真的是服了農業部 就是一個很簡單的一個蛋的缺蛋 然後要進口把它補足的問題竟然可以扯這麼久 然後也讓這個整個國會改革的合理化更具正當性 那國會改革本來就是應該的 可是從這過程當中我們看到了其實"},{"start":4513.792,"end":4535.463,"text":"光要讓行政部門的黑箱打開來是多麼的不容易所以我在想說立法院要有調查權這部分是很重要的不過因為我們今天最主要要講說農業的移工政策改善措施這個部分所以我在這邊也針對整個農業移工的部分來就教於部長跟我們勞動部的主密"},{"start":4536.844,"end":4565.862,"text":"我想請教一下因為那個整個移工的部分逃跑移工的部分真的是問題很嚴重到今年的2月為止的數字都超過8萬5千人我想說勞動部這邊應該資料是很清楚的然後我發現每次碰到逃跑移工的時候勞動部這邊的說法都是直接表示說會你修法重罰非法雇主非法仲介可是每次都這樣用"},{"start":4566.902,"end":4585.527,"text":"四月份的時候碰到這個問題的時候我看到新聞資料當中你們也還是這樣講可是過去這麼多年每次勞動部都是這樣回應可是說提修法然後都沒有提那你們在四月份這邊的時候你們也特別提到今年"},{"start":4587.568,"end":4596.644,"text":"6月份的時候會開始處罰然後也打算要再提修法的部分請問這個部分大概什麼時候會正式送到我們立法院來?"},{"start":4600.613,"end":4623.519,"text":"謝謝委員的一個吹詢這個部分之前我們在針對就業服務法要重罰非法僱用跟非法媒介這個部分呢原來的政策方向一直是如此政策方向如此可是很多年據本席瞭解108年不是送進行政院可是怎麼都沒有送到立法院來呢因為在不同的這個"},{"start":4624.859,"end":4625.72,"text":"所以何部長現在是要送還是不送?"},{"start":4650.783,"end":4669.04,"text":"目前我們在整個法案已經重新政院申請要撤回來重新再研議當中撤回來要再重新研議是回到後續進度怎麼樣給本席一個很清楚的一個說明那因為我們很希望說如果說要怎麼樣去做能夠解決整個臺灣的一個移工"},{"start":4670.069,"end":4670.529,"text":"謝謝主秘在整個的那個我國產業"},{"start":4691.624,"end":4715.736,"text":"在缺工的狀態當中最嚴重的三個部分大概就是農業啦然後營造業跟長照我想這部分應該是很清楚的一個狀態那我們今天就針對農業缺工的部分來就教一下陳部長因為我看到我們的報告資料裡頭下一頁先看下一頁我看下一頁的資料裡面"},{"start":4717.878,"end":4743.595,"text":"右邊是你的那個農業部的一個報告就是農業移工政策改善措施的書面報告裡面你提到說我們其實目前開放農業移工是1.2萬人是很清楚然後勞動部核發出來的聘僱許可人數到目前為止是8505人很清楚對不對是然後你也特別提到說我們今年年底預計1.2萬人會用慶對不對是"},{"start":4746.997,"end":4757.472,"text":"所以這1.2萬人提到了就是我們常態性的缺工是1.2萬人可是我們季節性的缺工是20萬人次 對不對"},{"start":4758.995,"end":4785.158,"text":"對 這個就全部包括在一起的 理解 那我全部包括在一起是什麼意思 1.2萬人裡面 有一部分是做季節性的 有一部分是做常態的 理解 所以我這邊有整個列出來喔 就是季節性就是外展農務的部分嘛 外展農務的部分 2472人對 我知道 所以說我要提的狀態說 我們提的人次的部分是怎麼去定義人次的問題 20萬人次"},{"start":4788.584,"end":4813.581,"text":"人次是怎麼去定義這個人次的問題我們那個人次是從主力農家裡面去抽樣以後然後去詢問他這一戶如果有缺工的需求我們就把它當作戶數去計算那有一部分是他可能是缺幾個人有沒有我們就會去算人次的次的概念不是用一天來算對不對"},{"start":4814.321,"end":4816.543,"text":"所以我們現在已經啟動了一些調查調查的結果大概還需要8000人在這個階段還需要8000人"},{"start":4841.442,"end":4856.684,"text":"所以我們現在已經啟動了就是要跟勞動部去爭取這樣的一個8千人另外8千人嘛對不對所以我們希望說最後增加到2萬因為爭取還有一段時間我們希望能夠銜接到年底的時候用完的時候他就可以用8千人來處理"},{"start":4857.445,"end":4873.918,"text":"謝謝部長我這邊我要特別提到一個有關於外展農務的部分因為外展農務這邊的時候他就是很針對季節性的一個去支援對不對那我們看到目前這邊的時候呢你們提出來的數字是"},{"start":4874.899,"end":4893.649,"text":"拜訪人數是3000人可是我看到另外一個統計數字的時候是稍高一點可是人數是一樣的可是我要提的情況是說我們對於外展農務當中的時候目前還沒有滿額有一個很大的問題就是因為他們有季節性所以他們會有農閒的時候那農閒的時候要怎麼去補助"},{"start":4894.249,"end":4894.769,"text":"我跟委員"},{"start":4913.056,"end":4938.664,"text":"報告分兩個部分一個部分就是說有時候農閒的時候因為原來的外展服務是不能跨區的所以當這個區域閒的時候它就比較麻煩所以我們現在推動可以跨區服務因為一個東西收穫的時候它可以跟著一直走所以它幾乎每天都有一樣的所以現在開放到可以跨區那有沒有可能可以跨業比跨業的部分我們曾經努力過但是不同的行業它有勞動契約"},{"start":4939.804,"end":4954.301,"text":"就非技術性的工作有沒有辦法去跨業支持因為有一些公司他週休二日我們都希望說週休二日可以來農業但是相對的他說農業很忙結果禮拜一就打瞌睡了"},{"start":4954.761,"end":4966.512,"text":"所以他牽涉到不同產業的特性因為我覺得這部分我會提到一個跨業的一個支援的部分其實就是要解決就是外在農務這邊的時候他會有季節性農閒問題所以也請這邊的時候跟農業部跟相關的跟勞動部相關的單位我們去做一個跨部會的一個協調對我們會來討論"},{"start":4975.481,"end":4997.644,"text":"接下來我要講的狀態是我們看到所有經察院這邊一個資料齁經察院這邊提出來資料當中的時候我們看到移工失聯率齁農業的體系就是比例最高的那這個數字齁因為它是112年的目前大概11.92%左右你說農業的部分是不是對農業的部分"},{"start":4998.625,"end":5018.424,"text":"所以你要特別提到說 農業部分現在並沒有比整個一般的數字來得高 是一樣高的 對不對 我們8萬5千人跟74萬個移工來說 算起來也大概是11%左右對 11% 因為現在目前整個 整個失聯的大概3千人左右 大概有沒有 總共啦 移工的部分有4 將近500人 所以他11%左右啦"},{"start":5021.587,"end":5034.258,"text":"所以你說現在監察院提供的數字是比較舊的數字你現在最新的數字的時候農業的移工系統的比例在11%左右對不對那這個部分我就再請部長這邊再給我們更詳細的一個數字那我這邊我要提到一個狀態是現在很多"},{"start":5044.966,"end":5060.253,"text":"我提到一個狀態是因為現在很多其他產業的移工就黑工的狀態很多都集中在農業部門那在很多的茶園、果園裡面據說基本上都是逃跑的外勞"},{"start":5062.294,"end":5086.317,"text":"我希望農業部這邊的時候能夠想一個更完整的方式不要讓農業體系因為缺工太嚴重去容納了很多其他產業的一個逃跑外勞然後導致我們的社會當中出現另外一個不安定的狀態好不好?農業缺工情況我們很理解可是我們希望農業不要變成逃跑外勞集中的大本營"},{"start":5086.917,"end":5114.505,"text":"了解,我們會努力的想辦法降低這樣一個現象OK,謝謝好,謝謝接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢問主席、各位委員,來請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":5123.562,"end":5142.336,"text":"部長很早辛苦了今天的主題非常重要從你們的報告裡面近5年農林移木就業人口遞減這是一個事實112年我國農林移木就業人口50.9萬人"},{"start":5148.74,"end":5177.215,"text":"比111年減少2.1萬如果跟108年來比的話更是減少了5萬人真的是一個非常嚴重的數字這個顯示農業人口而且從年齡層來講這個都是高齡者中高齡者而且不斷的會成高齡化這是事實其他的勞工也是一樣當然跟我們的"},{"start":5179.236,"end":5201.203,"text":"臺灣的這個人口結構也有關係第一個是大家年齡增加了然後又是因為很嚴重的這個少子女化都是一個面臨的一個問題所以從這個圖表裡面你可以看得非常非常的清楚那這個整個"},{"start":5203.995,"end":5219.842,"text":"從106到111如果我們從這個近5年常顧及臨時員工短缺的情形來看就可以從你們的報告裡面可以怎麼樣去了解實際的一個狀況那這個整個到113年5月底"},{"start":5228.567,"end":5257.985,"text":"根據勞動部的報告在台農業移工7529名從事農林移牧及養殖移業工作最多現在在台灣除了我們的農業的部分其實其他的一般的勞工製造業營造業各方面也都切"},{"start":5259.304,"end":5266.62,"text":"所以這個部長啊,你們在這個行政院到底有沒有跨部會的討論過這方面的問題?"},{"start":5269.482,"end":5269.622,"text":"這個我在"},{"start":5296.711,"end":5321.836,"text":"應該是上上一屆第9屆現在是第11屆其實我在第9屆的時候就建議建議行政院應該要成立一個少子擬化辦公室但是他們不理不睬完全沒有因為這是臺灣很重要的問題現在不是只有農林螢幕跟一般營造各方面的勞工未來"},{"start":5323.686,"end":5348.058,"text":"未來我們的軍人也是以後都要外籍軍人了現在願意去當兵的越來越少那薪水又很低所以這個部分這是一個非常嚴重的問題我就不知道為什麼這個行政院一直不成立這個少子女化辦公室的一個推動怎麼樣去解決這方面的問題"},{"start":5349.31,"end":5366.777,"text":"所以這個當然很多責任都是在衛福部跟行政院這個部分這個是一個很嚴肅很重大的一個問題所以這裡也很難跟你要求這是我們農民的一個問題這個是要去解決的部分好我接下來這個還是要談"},{"start":5379.619,"end":5394.035,"text":"我第一次談超市淡超市進口淡當這個事件發生的時候真的是不可不可思議了作為一個以前叫農委會"},{"start":5395.672,"end":5422.649,"text":"農委會依照稀木法第25條成立財團法人中央續產會然後進口這個農業部要補助你要補助補助都說要審核啊一億七千多萬補助要審核啊我這個外行的想也知道"},{"start":5424.226,"end":5436.213,"text":"一個超市這麼小的資本額然後他要進口他哪知道巴西有蛋啊部長巴西進口多少蛋"},{"start":5439.15,"end":5454.044,"text":"應該是五千多萬顆因為總計是一億五千多萬顆那巴西的部分巴西多遠?巴西離台灣多遠?多遠啊?那個槓桿是不是沒辦法保存嗎?一定是壞蛋嘛!"},{"start":5454.775,"end":5456.776,"text":"事實上部長不要替他們說話,我不要讓你牽扯"},{"start":5474.343,"end":5496.895,"text":"你沒有實際調查,你又不寫調查報告,你又拿不到他很正確的,按照你們的說明啊,我都看啊,你們的說明,說你們也沒有調查前,你們去調查,所以不要...沒有,我是針對蛋的部分。沒有,到底他那個船到底有沒有完成,那個設備是不是都很完整?"},{"start":5498.395,"end":5525.323,"text":"我是懷疑啊這麼短的時間最主要他怎麼知道巴西有蛋啊對不對絕對是都全部從中央市場會我不講說你們農業部有怎麼樣過節啊從中央市場會到外交部到什麼什麼什麼全部是一團一條鏈啊不然他怎麼知道誰知道巴西有蛋啊"},{"start":5529.157,"end":5550.148,"text":"巴西是全世界供應雞蛋的一個大宗國家至少你一定要搶便嗎?那就把調查報告給我不是不是我現在講的就是巴西本身的蛋因為巴西的國家是出口蛋現在你又不好好調查你又說你沒有無錢調查他是依矽目法"},{"start":5553.217,"end":5573.711,"text":"主管機關是你農業部,然後你建築成立的經費都是你的,相關的這些制度都在,你當然有調查權啊,怎麼會沒有呢?對不對?"},{"start":5574.977,"end":5602.297,"text":"好 這個是要調查 你說你沒有調查錢就交給不是 我要跟委員澄清一件事情就是說我們在行政調查的部分我們針對續展會都有做內部的調查 這沒問題我們說我們本身行政權沒有辦法去觸及的就是因為有些委員認為就是說貿易商之間的貿易的關係到底是什麼樣的關係那他們基本上是司法人的關係那以農業部的部分是沒有辦法直接觸及的所以"},{"start":5603.678,"end":5605.401,"text":"你們已經有調查的就認為你們的職權範圍內對是在我們的職權範圍內我們會調查的"},{"start":5617.875,"end":5620.717,"text":"最後財團法人法制定之後你們這些就要配合修正了"},{"start":5645.526,"end":5645.546,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":5681.946,"end":5690.637,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英召委諮詢主席楊瓊英發言 邀請部長請部長"},{"start":5697.11,"end":5717.715,"text":"副部長,我們今天討論農業界的缺工我記得在107年開始我們努力的把這個問題檯面化終於在108年以事辦的方式800人率先DP執行到現在我們所統計出來"},{"start":5719.675,"end":5746.304,"text":"顯性的：引信還不說顯性的大概我們需要的這一些移工的缺口應該會有將近兩萬人那目前當然第二階段一萬兩千人執行到現在大約有七成左右進來 對不對對大概七成嘛那在這樣的情況之下我們在當地地方還是"},{"start":5747.568,"end":5747.588,"text":"拜訪"},{"start":5777.848,"end":5781.473,"text":"我們務必要把它解決那也聽到剛剛部長您說的我們現在一萬兩千人用了七成那我們還要盤點了八千人所以這些你現在跟的對接介面因為到今年要到了那怎麼辦呢請說明"},{"start":5798.517,"end":5820.57,"text":"我想我們現在目前就是為了防止說年底以後就斷了一段的時間,所以我們排了8000人,8000人分為農林渝蓄這個部分因為我們負責過來,然後現在就積極的跟勞動部去爭取,去說服他其實勞動的缺工是必要的,來做一個補充"},{"start":5821.01,"end":5838.216,"text":"我們當你的後盾阿你有信心一定要爭取到嘛對不對我想勞動部也非常支持農業部的一個提案他們也非常重視阿我們要的是結果再到年底這個界面一定要對接成功繼續加油我們有信心那我們有信心我就給你獎勵鼓勵"},{"start":5840.537,"end":5860.425,"text":"接下來我們要討論的我們在基層因為我們的這個農業的技術訊息萬變而且行業別也訊息萬變原因裡頭比如說我們的多肉植物現在是很多人不管辦公室大家都非常喜歡這個創造了很多的產值對不對對"},{"start":5862.346,"end":5890.196,"text":"對"},{"start":5890.556,"end":5907.943,"text":"但是目前草皮的類別還沒有辦法加入這個行業怎麼辦我跟委員報告特別是我們針對一些新興的這些比較需要的像草皮像一些菇色這些更需要的上一次本席在跟你討論的時候連花卉都沒有最後你加進來對我現在6月7日的時候我們已經新的部分我們會跟勞動部爭取然後意義方面我們會把它降低門檻"},{"start":5916.846,"end":5917.666,"text":"所以本期請教草皮的部分會放寒這是務必"},{"start":5938.232,"end":5950.137,"text":"對 我們已經有提案到勞動部去了增加的類別 草皮還有什麼?菇吧 芽菜 芽菜非常的重要 菇 菇在我的心色 我們現在連菇 菇菌種都我們農會自己來協助"},{"start":5959.84,"end":5980.494,"text":"這是為國爭光啊 為國爭光 所以菇類 草皮都會在這一次 芽菜 什麼時候會公布我想我們在時任程局長一定會跟勞動部協調 然後跟他爭取你預估的KPI的時間點在什麼時候我都希望在年底之前都能夠完成啦 當然越快越好啊"},{"start":5980.936,"end":5989.878,"text":"不可能到年底,現在才6月!你怎麼可能半年?你不做事嗎?怎麼省也不要省到半年呢?大家都知道非常的迫切需要啊!我們農民一天都不能等欸!"},{"start":6003.041,"end":6024.733,"text":"加速審查 儘速開放 草皮 香菇 菇類 營養 芽菜都要開放因為它有一部分還要修法部長你真的要謝謝我們台中地區的草皮 像我們的永旺公司"},{"start":6026.274,"end":6041.26,"text":"二三十年全家董總動員不斷的在推陳初心為我們國家賺了這麼多的稅所以我們要全力支持他像我們的香菇我們做到被人欺負之後我們甚至農會你們輔導的我要謝謝我們自己"},{"start":6045.894,"end":6047.034,"text":"我們現在三天現在一共多少?"},{"start":6075.905,"end":6077.708,"text":"25.5你看一直盤上個禮拜27.5現在25.5那我們的批發價本來是大概39塊"},{"start":6090.655,"end":6110.761,"text":"甚至有人說再來給我第一家好辛苦一箱甚至一箱一箱300塊怎麼辦您上次跟我本席討論的從寡產機那麼你說一個月我們要有這個50萬支你要維持兩個月維持兩個月嗎維持兩個月每一個月增加淘汰50萬支應該是60萬120變成180"},{"start":6120.646,"end":6126.214,"text":"60萬隻 一隻補助多少 20塊 一隻補助20塊部長你冷靜去想好不容易生出來的雞蛋 過量甚至要去餵豬 心痛啊"},{"start":6135.546,"end":6159.253,"text":"接下來我們要看到人民的納稅錢因為你的產銷沒有去安排好我們還要一支補助20塊這都是人民的納稅錢你的產銷機制你現在希望控制在2400萬克 對不對你現在希望控制這樣子那所以本席也具體給你建立你的產銷機制"},{"start":6161.604,"end":6165.406,"text":"你的產銷機制必須好好的去盤點好不好你沒有去盤點一架子又要我們補助一隻寡產母雞20塊這都是我們的錢欸60萬隻double120萬隻又要花多少錢啊產生出來的雞蛋還要送給豬吃哇這個是他存起來還要冷藏還要電費農民苦哈哈雞農苦哈哈欸"},{"start":6190.39,"end":6206.655,"text":"不可以如此你去盤點我們要怎麼樣在產銷能夠平穩你把數量資料給本席好不好好最後一個議題我給你也就是你知道本席非常關心的我們流浪的遊蕩的這些犬貓"},{"start":6207.881,"end":6228.3,"text":"那我們現在有說啊天啊天啊的機制你的SOP流程你整個要完善啊我說你今天手術之後你應該要有讓他們幾天的觀察期才可以回治嘛你現在第26條告訴我你們告訴我只要一天"},{"start":6229.561,"end":6257.034,"text":"一天可以嗎?腸子破掉了肚子也破了這怎麼辦啊?可以嗎?所以本期具體建議你應該要將這個TNR的手冊裡面要嚴格的去落實到它上面基層都建議回治的時間要手術後的五天部長你認為呢?"},{"start":6258.627,"end":6276.653,"text":"我覺得在整個在回遲的之前一定要確保動物的福利這是一個最大的一個前提那你東東一天肚子破掉也讓他出來他如果結紮以後有一些傷口如果說要看當時的情況我覺得一天可能太早啦我覺得要確保動物的福利是一個前提這個基本"},{"start":6277.779,"end":6296.489,"text":"第一件希望五天我希望你去盤點至少要三天好不好好不好你把數字告訴本席因為你們更離譜叫說回字過去肚子破掉的說請周邊的居民你請看一下他到底在哪裡所以本期第二項建議第一個時間點你們去盤點本期具體建議至少要三天回字第二個具體建議手術之後也應該要有放晶片你們去研議"},{"start":6307.354,"end":6320.822,"text":"這樣子你才可以管控這一支到底跑到哪裡去啊不然你會製造第二個問題嘛好不好我覺得委員的建議非常正確就是說當我捕捉以後再回制的時候應該放晶片啦如果沒有的話我們會強我也要求啦"},{"start":6322.483,"end":6347.542,"text":"接下來才能有效的追蹤對 我們才能夠達到我們才有結果嘛 對不對好 我也謝謝你同意本席所提出手術之後結紮之後你必須要放晶片讓所有的人都能夠安心嘛好不好那第一項就是以照顧我們的這個犬貓牠動物牠的安全為基準本席具體建議是三天你要把時間告訴本席 好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":6357.313,"end":6369.457,"text":"接下來我們請謝一芬委員請做巡檔謝謝主席 我想要請陳部長 我們再請陳部長委員長"},{"start":6378.325,"end":6393.432,"text":"部長早其實我看到你們的報告當中你已經瞭解其實我們現在農業的這個勞動人口其實在50歲以上的勞動人口都算是年輕是不是以農業來說是不是"},{"start":6399.758,"end":6419.43,"text":"平均是53歲啦那我先提供一個數據就是現在目前的那個主計總數調查是50.9萬那其中如果說大於65歲才11%換句話說65歲以下的大概接近大概90%左右那50歲以上的呢"},{"start":6420.371,"end":6425.698,"text":"50歲以上的齁我這邊的數據是有小於45歲的大概12.6萬人然後45到64的是27.3萬人這樣推估起來大概20萬人左右"},{"start":6431.437,"end":6451.574,"text":"所以大部分都是在50歲上下對上下這個部分那代表了我們其實農業的缺工是非常嚴重的嘛大家都你也你也非常清楚是那在農業缺工裡面你又你的報告也提到了我們的臺灣的是以小農為主是"},{"start":6452.955,"end":6466.037,"text":"那小農的缺工他如果要自己去找工人或者是引進勞工是不是比較困難很多人是用合併的方式那這個部分怎麼樣解決這個外展農業服務"},{"start":6467.389,"end":6493.073,"text":"我跟委員說明就是因為請一個外籍移工的話成本大概4萬塊左右所以你如果自己是小面積的你去請一個外籍移工的話非常困難我覺得那個會把你的收益都吃掉所以我們是鼓勵用合作社的方式共同經營的方式去處理那第二個部分就是我們會強化這些外展的移工有跨區協助的一個功能"},{"start":6493.393,"end":6514.452,"text":"可是過去你們也有所謂的就是說我們的就是週期性的就是勞動的人力的有我們還是有但是過去就是成效不彰啊第一個有一些就是不願意做那有一些不願意留下來那你們未來怎麼樣子改善這些問題"},{"start":6515.533,"end":6530.458,"text":"我想分為兩個層次就是我們會強化現在本國的人力團46團裡面大概1500人能夠真正的達到對季節性缺工的一個需求能夠滿足到第二個部分就是有一部分可以用機械化自動化替代的部分我們會"},{"start":6531.358,"end":6556.156,"text":"去組成一些農事服務業然後透過機械化的部分去來協助他們去做處理那第三個部分是有一些像高接力有沒有我們用人機輔具的方式是節省他的同樣的人但是能夠增加他的效率對但是我們知道像水稻、雜糧等等可以機械化但是很多的例如我們剛才說到的花卉"},{"start":6557.036,"end":6573.829,"text":"對,花卉果樹都是比較困難的花卉或者是菇類或者是其他的草皮、芽菜等等都是困難的那這個部分怎麼解決我想第一個部分就是我們會降低他申請的門檻就是我們會重新評估"},{"start":6574.309,"end":6593.797,"text":"議員．"},{"start":6594.867,"end":6622.592,"text":"還有大家關注的蛋的問題去年是缺蛋今年卻是蛋過剩我想要請問部長從你從整體的供需的角度來看為什麼會發生這樣子的問題我想分為兩個層次就是說我們在整個的雞舍的升級過程中有一部分已經升級了它的產蛋效率又變高但是他們"},{"start":6623.803,"end":6624.243,"text":"另外一個問題是我們現在的消費量"},{"start":6638.814,"end":6639.894,"text":"對,所以我們一直呼籲我們的消費民眾就是"},{"start":6663.122,"end":6664.283,"text":"在這個問題上面消費者跟農民同樣的受傷"},{"start":6679.628,"end":6705.401,"text":"是不是?消費者也沒有享受到現在蛋過剩他們低價的便宜而農民卻又受到了蛋產量過剩的問題是不是?那農委會這個也要解決啊是不是?對我們現在有一部分就是在跟超市賣場合作就是他們供應的消費端的這些蛋能夠有一些比較平價的方式去刺激他們"},{"start":6706.241,"end":6720.554,"text":"那部分的這些超市賣場已經開始有這樣的行動了所以什麼時候會開始沒有這個是我們在跟超市賣場協調那超市賣場有一部分他已經開始有降價的一個空間那我們希望說這個降價能夠帶動"},{"start":6722.571,"end":6737.337,"text":"好 那希望說降價的問題不會再影響到產地蛋的售價好不好因為你這樣子對 這樣會惡性循環下去我們這樣子這個雞蛋的問題永遠都沒有辦法解決是不是"},{"start":6738.632,"end":6754.034,"text":"再來就是我昨天特別去了解了現在我們農業部在推廣的就是希望輔導農民使用青蛮樹來吹芽是不是"},{"start":6755.955,"end":6768.287,"text":"但是我發現了我在觀摩當中我發現一個非常大的問題就是你們認為青蛮樹的導入農民可以自己的去"},{"start":6769.554,"end":6769.574,"text":"是﹗"},{"start":6796.256,"end":6816.777,"text":"過去我們在希望輔導農民用青蟎樹來吹芽的時候結果現在又發生了這樣子就是第一個估算的問題第二個還發生了氣候的因素也跟過往不同了現在因為氣候變遷的因素導致"},{"start":6818.439,"end":6835.964,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":6836.67,"end":6860.721,"text":"我們吹牙的這樣子的一個效果的農藥過去也是農委會推薦克美素那克美素目前在食藥署並沒有定任何的殘留那在沒有定殘留情況下他們可不可以用藥那不能用藥的情況下怎麼樣子解決目前吹牙的問題部長"},{"start":6862.369,"end":6862.869,"text":"當然你現在都是優化技術"},{"start":6883.601,"end":6901.01,"text":"但是我說的是農民過往他們就已經習慣因為這個東西他們過往是用外包的方式所以他們本身就沒有具備吹牙的這個技能嘛那我們今天如果要做這樣子的時候你也要花一些時間去導入嘛"},{"start":6902.731,"end":6926.317,"text":"那對於農民這樣子的一個你剛才說的你要誘導他進入這個政策的時候你必須要給他誘因嗎那在這個部分青蠻樹的部分你怎麼樣子提供他們誘因啊過去我們農業部說要導入青蠻樹是希望可以先減青蠻樹這個用藥的價格就是這個催壓劑的價格那怎麼樣子做相關的補貼"},{"start":6932.439,"end":6944.607,"text":"我想我們會去思考一些產業的輔導的一個產業的協助的作為但是我們基本上不傾向直接用因為藥的部分我們很少用"},{"start":6945.472,"end":6945.592,"text":"我瞭解"},{"start":6964.017,"end":6988.787,"text":"這個東西是當初就是說我們在當初在協助他們做這個相關的這個吹牙祭的這個就是使用青蠻樹這個過程當中我們希望可以就是說讓所有農民慢慢的去使用但是你去使用的時候我們又發生了氣候的問題導致於他們又要使用新的藥"},{"start":6989.787,"end":6989.907,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":7022.077,"end":7029.443,"text":"這個議題真的很重要連我們的計時器都跳起來了所以部長加油接下來我們請李議員請做巡檔謝謝主席請陳部長再請陳部長"},{"start":7044.94,"end":7066.474,"text":"部長,我國的經濟從農業社會一直轉型到工業社會到現在的以科技的這個產業供應鏈為支柱那尤其要提升我們國際的競爭力我們看到產業的轉型跟民眾的觀念以及少子化的這個危機加重了我們農村地區的人口的老化跟世代的斷層"},{"start":7067.295,"end":7067.435,"text":"那是農保的"},{"start":7084.16,"end":7102.076,"text":"所以現在2019年引進了這個農業的移工有這個需要吧從最早的800人到現在12000人剛剛部長在報告的時候也特別講到目前現在移工的申請到了8500人到年底就會到12000人那你知道這個缺口還要有8000人對不對那這8000人的話你知道要分配的到哪裡嗎"},{"start":7108.542,"end":7114.465,"text":"例如說像我們農糧部分目前是4000續牧業的話是4000人還有我們的外產人員是3000人跟我們養殖業800跟林業的200那你未來增加的這8000人你有規劃你有去做市場調查嗎對我們那個8000人就是從市場調查裡面得到的目前8000人會怎麼分配對大概還是會在農糧為主然後有一部分是續牧"},{"start":7133.134,"end":7133.294,"text":"外展外展"},{"start":7163.534,"end":7164.255,"text":"我跟委員說明,就是過往這個"},{"start":7183.84,"end":7209.247,"text":"外展的部分都在當區因為牽涉到交通跟住宿的問題當我去做跨區的時候我們會再跟我們現在開始有示範我們會去看示範裡面他的真正的需要在協助的地方特別是包括交通還有一部分的住宿那我舉個例子像果樹部長你還是沒有去了解務實的這個問題你要問到每一個農會他們在申請的人員比如說大的農會"},{"start":7210.487,"end":7215.753,"text":"現在大的農會比如說板橋好了或者台北好了他大的農會人員很多你現在配比是50%1比1對不對他的農會的話大農會人員當然多他申請的人多但是實際上下去農耕的人卻不需要那麼多因為他的農會實際在做的就是存放好的業務比較多嘛所以"},{"start":7229.907,"end":7254.28,"text":"在農村來講話他雖然是小農會可能他的行業裡面大概緣額大概20人10幾個人但是他的那個農地非常的大所以在這邊提醒部長就是你的外展人員跟你配比的問題你就需要依照農地的大小以大農地來申請這個外展人員而不是農會的大小的緣額來申請這樣子的話就不夠物質了是不是"},{"start":7255.02,"end":7273.22,"text":"我講分為兩個層次齁第一個層次是合配比的部分齁我們現在是全國一次性的只是合配比不一樣齁它的一個本級跟外級的部分那剛才委員所提的用農地的部分齁小農會比如說像我們現在還有合作社也可以所以我們會針對那一區那一區如果說農會如果"},{"start":7276.744,"end":7284.408,"text":"的人力的不夠的時候我們會協助他用合作的方式還可以去申請所以我們會盡量朝這個努力因為農地體會不大"},{"start":7292.773,"end":7311.527,"text":"並備質詢"},{"start":7311.587,"end":7335.704,"text":"他可能兩夫妻的工作但是他在收割期的話需要大量的人力就必須要有臨時工這就必須要調配所以有的地方如果沒有像部長您所講的有46個團的人力1500人的這個農務的人力團的話他需要的人力就必須要在當地當地的話比如我們桃園的話就青農青農的話他就可以成立合作社你補助他這個機械化的農機具的話他可以來協助幫忙"},{"start":7339.326,"end":7361.033,"text":"但是部長你有沒有了解到農忙的時候大家都忙都在搶人比如我們桃園的話比較多的是水稻或者是我們茶葉或者是我們的有機蔬菜忙的時候都一樣有機蔬菜是每天在忙可是如果說茶葉一次性的水稻一年兩次性三次性就是把這個農民休閒的時間會空擋在這邊所以這樣的情形的話他們要怎麼去管理外產人員呢"},{"start":7367.543,"end":7388.583,"text":"所以我們才會提到這個外長可以跨區來支援那以桃園地區來講的話我們會加強因為很多像蔬菜類的部分有沒有我們會加強它的農事服務的代更系統那這樣它的人民又可以往別的地方走我還請部長你再務其了解跨區的資源還是不足在當地的在地的資源"},{"start":7389.103,"end":7389.363,"text":"會來得比較好"},{"start":7406.736,"end":7414.121,"text":"我瞭解我瞭解但是因為勞動部這邊對於核配比有一致性的原則啦那這個已經超多他的一致性原則用本國跟所以務實去了解實際的問題在研究以後再跟勞動部來溝通"},{"start":7430.931,"end":7440.719,"text":"還有就是因為我們的農耕是比較曝曬在戶外曬太陽而且比較辛苦所以這移工失聯的也比較多部長有沒有發現這個問題?我們大概是12點14所以要怎麼防範呢?"},{"start":7447.905,"end":7463.832,"text":"我想要先去考慮說會去逃逸的部分可能就是因為你本身的適應性不夠而且農業的這些特殊性農業跟其他的工業不一樣然後因為移工有互相聯絡的關係他都會跑往比較輕鬆的在COVID-19的時候"},{"start":7465.313,"end":7466.113,"text":"我們了解這個,我們會想辦法去解決這個問題"},{"start":7491.321,"end":7505.467,"text":"接下來我想請問部長一下因為台電有說未來他對於農漁業的這個電費已經不補助了那我們這邊有沒有要補助這個電費的補助我們已經納入我們農業部的預算大概19億農漁業的話的電費補助大概多少錢18.9億他也是18.9億"},{"start":7513.038,"end":7513.879,"text":"我記得是18.9億那你會補足嗎"},{"start":7526.809,"end":7544.381,"text":"一定要補足啊!好!那就不要把這個成本轉嫁到農民!現在農民的成本已經很高了啦!已經慢慢地在衰退了!如果再付他更多的成本他可能會受不了!店家的那個六大項我們會去支撐著嘛!就不會調降!不會調漲!那這個差額的部分是由農業部"},{"start":7545.322,"end":7545.362,"text":"主席"},{"start":7572.998,"end":7600.85,"text":"首先有請我們農業部我們的陳部長我們請陳部長委員長部長好部長我給你請教你幾年出委?47年次47年次好我這樣了解那部長我每次在委員會的執行"},{"start":7602.925,"end":7626.943,"text":"還有我們院會的總執行一直強調苗栗縣一定要成立第一區反波四萬區苗栗縣的土地裡面86%是山坡地我們受限到苗栗縣的喉嚨被鎖住的我告訴你一個世界情形"},{"start":7628.089,"end":7656.683,"text":"苗栗的山坡地一甲地大概是一千五百萬到兩千萬說到台北市新北市大概買不到十坪到二十坪的房子你看這比例差了多少我也希望部長這開始對農民很不公平農民又分成兩種都市計劃"},{"start":7658.336,"end":7659.596,"text":"尤其苗栗縣的山坡地占了86%"},{"start":7687.369,"end":7709.69,"text":"您知道嗎?你們在農挖條例以來,您條例學術在說,只要說山坡地保持安全,我告訴你們,現在北省太窮了,自己去的地方必須要照顧得好,不能發生問題。那主要為了醫院一片的假清高,把農民的財產都把它降下來,"},{"start":7711.431,"end":7740.038,"text":"以前一甲地可以賣到三千多兩千多現在剩下一千五還沒有人要那是天道地的差別農民是客家宅散地國家宅散現在老農民在工作做什麼呢做健康的不是賺錢的自己農業部搞一個民主地所以我在這我要再三跟你強調我希望你跟我還有水保使的跟我下去看"},{"start":7741.175,"end":7748.794,"text":"你看到的時候你覺得退出的時候就要到那個地方來治鳥語花香人間仙境"},{"start":7750.438,"end":7771.904,"text":"那因為開挖現在為什麼不給你們講其實裡面你有開挖包括你農地的耕種你甚至可以組織農耕隊裡面要大膽的改革啊我們要有行動也要有創新你的AI內閣像我山坡地86%都在那裡喊著要洗洗地啊"},{"start":7773.234,"end":7778.8,"text":"我現在要求一件事我比你年紀還大但是我永遠是行動我永遠敢於創新"},{"start":7795.595,"end":7808.774,"text":"我朝你來看我一定我們在苗栗縣政府裏面討論完我們山坡地要如何開發我要把苗栗縣的山坡地打造像日本輕型車一樣"},{"start":7811.981,"end":7827.47,"text":"來個試試也可以減低了很多都市人口的壓力年紀大的一點一點的人可以在苗栗縣來康養非常好觀念要改變因為苗栗縣有獨特的地方到台北市高鐵40分鐘台中18分鐘"},{"start":7831.292,"end":7842.398,"text":"到高雄那邊大概70幾分鐘而且苗栗縣的高鐵苗栗縣政府到苗栗縣每一個鄉鎮30分鐘就會到很緊張的很好的地方"},{"start":7847.489,"end":7873.704,"text":"我再三提出來我覺得說我們做事情一定要大膽,我們要串心,我們要物盡其用,不是那麼白癡在那,滿山滿嶺以前種的水果都沒有人在摘啊,切工切得很凍,年輕人也不想做,我們也要改變一個方式,方立委來支持我這個結尾,我帶你去看,我們把問題提出來,真的是好地方"},{"start":7875.677,"end":7897.702,"text":"我被你們農化條例限制變成垃圾我一定要活化阿免驚你給我們一個試驗地區由縣長來指導法院跟你們討論通過以後做一次給人家看這樣不像台灣的進步永遠你保守在那邊什麼的不能破壞我常常講"},{"start":7899.144,"end":7923.4,"text":"都市人禮拜一到禮拜五你們在這邊燈紅巧麗。禮拜五晚上到我們鄉下地方禮拜六禮拜天我們的青山綠水好山好水都在你鄉上。為什麼都市裡面的農地可以重劃?變為自宅區變為商業區?為什麼我們山坡地要特別受您規限?"},{"start":7925.129,"end":7933.898,"text":"現在施工幾乎沒有人在種：有時候你看到很悲哀：誰要去爬：要不要答應支持我這樣：我們兩個還有水保局跟我去看：三個人"},{"start":7950.862,"end":7962.595,"text":"半天給你看到民間的力量有多偉大他創造一個美好的地方之後他們都實現大家人生要來修養安養的一個地方在"},{"start":7965.538,"end":7969.641,"text":"我那時候也承諾在我們的會期結束以後我一定會安排我的同仁好好地去看不要太走忍"},{"start":7983.303,"end":7987.507,"text":"我舉個人去看一看當然你會瞭解很多地方 當初以前做了這個說明 可有辦法可能的"},{"start":8005.866,"end":8010.63,"text":"在我要唱給大家聽,還沒開發還沒進步,怎麼會這樣就立場改變一下啦!謝謝!我跟委員報告,我們不能用農地的階段,不是只有..."},{"start":8018.578,"end":8019.738,"text":"今天講到農業移工"},{"start":8047.605,"end":8070.691,"text":"啊現在狀況,失聯移工是佔了一個大部分那在流氓的時候看你部長夠不夠力你外來的移工現在從6千人到1萬2千人條度的問題每一個農產品產的季節的問題都不一樣所以現在依我了解"},{"start":8072.272,"end":8091.894,"text":"這農民要叫台灣人來做,沒人什麼人要做,要去拜託,拜託到很沒民主的那些主力才是主力,我先插頭跟你講其實有時候我們要感謝他們,為什麼?那段的時間大家寧願錢高一點給他們,他們又出來做"},{"start":8092.984,"end":8109.169,"text":"因為你記得一個觀念這些移工一進來他就是要賺錢談了一段時間有給他賺錢他就會問一座台灣人做一半工就把你完成了我跟你講我碰到很多我在地方跑都會問這個問題第二個關於移工要進來"},{"start":8115.327,"end":8139.612,"text":"農業,你們以農業系統,我也支持但是我會講,農業系統,你是有換款的單位當然以輔導的單位,比較官僚一點我講這句話也就是我們的農業嘛但是我相信不會,我是把實情告訴你因為我要替你解決問題,我要把真的情形另外,我碰到了幾個"},{"start":8141.805,"end":8166.965,"text":"農會的青年人不錯 像我們縣里農會 像我們的西湖農會 那些啊 青農不錯 即使你真的在調用 那些農會 行動到緩慢 那些青年 青農都很多新的 不單更做 而且是地方有實力的 他認識的人很多 好好把持 這個是重要的裝潮"},{"start":8168.246,"end":8181.9,"text":"所以他們為了要服務將來他們要在地方發展的時候只要他的農民來拜託他他就會去幫他找解決問題快速好好的運用這個有效率的青龍"},{"start":8183.362,"end":8205.499,"text":"我看過我們縣裡的青龍真的很團結,也真的在做事情。西湖的也不錯。每一個地方的青龍培養出來不一樣。我覺得你用這樣的青龍,它有你農業各方面的人在那一邊,他們還用的速度很快。調整人力好好指揮給他們去應用一下,可能非常快。"},{"start":8206.818,"end":8229.455,"text":"當然未來我們CPTP一進來我們會更到 農業會更到更大的麻煩現在因應好 未來是來是我們以後農業的主力 現在沒有人要做了 我只是跟你講而且收穫也不高 只維護他的土地 哎呀啦 我要去做什麼 叫做做健康的啦"},{"start":8231.82,"end":8254.317,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝陳委員感謝 謝謝接下來我們請賴駿榮委員請做詢答 謝謝好 謝謝趙偉浩請陳部長我們再請陳部長各位與會人士我們今天沒有休息所以如果要這個"},{"start":8258.26,"end":8279.958,"text":"人性管理請自行處理謝謝好委員長好部長我首先請教一下這個牡蠣的問題這個也是漁業也是食安的問題全國的牡蠣其實這幾年整體的數量是減少的但是在媽祖的部分幾乎是倍增大概是兩倍從109年66公噸到148公噸是部長為什麼會有這樣的狀況"},{"start":8286.743,"end":8302.932,"text":"全台灣整體在減少而在媽祖全台灣的牡蠣大概在兩萬噸上下那過往大概平均大概一萬七千噸我先講國內的部分然後不足的地方是從國外的特別是以越南為主那當你國內的因為氣候關係調降的時候"},{"start":8305.914,"end":8331.43,"text":"那個越南的牡蠣就會進來可是我們發現這一兩年來這一兩年來的越南的牡蠣包括從五千噸六千噸讓整體的這個產量大概多了兩千噸左右大概到了兩千兩百噸不過比較好的情況是它的面積雖然下降但是產值提高了這個產值提高的部分我要講是馬祖牡蠣這個部分對 那馬祖的部分"},{"start":8332.951,"end":8350.629,"text":"從那個應該是66到148嘛那相對的就是馬祖本身的這些海域過往他比較少種那現在他們覺得說種這個也算是不錯的現在有14家那他們覺得是不錯的一個行業所以他們透過馬祖養殖了以後進到本島來賣"},{"start":8352.371,"end":8373.947,"text":"這個通道本身現在大概有建立了我只是要特別提醒因為就整個產量來說的話其實媽祖的這個平均每戶的產量狀況是高於臺灣這邊的那我要講的是媽祖的這些牡蠣的重金屬的檢驗其中幾個裡面檢驗特別在這個蛤的部分都是超過1ppm的"},{"start":8375.328,"end":8392.724,"text":"甚至有到2.33ppm那我認為這個問題其實是需要還是需要農業部跟漁業署去重視當然是涉及到包括涉及到相關的衛福部的一些事案的問題包括涉及到海巡是不是有走私偷渡的問題等等但不管但我覺得就"},{"start":8394.226,"end":8412.984,"text":"於產品的一個安全性來說我覺得漁業署跟農業部還是有責任我希望用最快的時間去找各單位去溝通釐清一下一方面就是說這個如果有走失的狀況的話這個還是要做一些處理包括各種的走失狀況甚至把它放在那邊然後變成由這邊來採收或者是說這個"},{"start":8417.248,"end":8445.817,"text":"整個種金屬的狀況我認為這個部分農業部應該要更有態度去做處理我想非常重要就是其實從馬祖過來其實我們最擔心的是稀產地的部分所以針對馬祖本身種的我們會要求它本身有成交履歷或追溯的現在14家裡面已經有13家了那一旦有這個追溯系統它的量就能夠了解第二個就是品質的問題就是它品質本身的一個監控養殖條件的一個監控的部分我們會要加強"},{"start":8446.237,"end":8465.674,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8466.315,"end":8476.751,"text":"甚至他的來源是不清楚的我認為他就應該要這個部分要持續來推動這樣才能確保整個好不好我希望這一塊部長跟署長再更花多點時間來做處理好"},{"start":8478.038,"end":8504.209,"text":"接下來回來講一下雞蛋我覺得雞蛋這件事情其實很久了我看從去年就已經一直有人在檢舉部長為什麼經過了一整年還有人在炒這件事情部長你怎麼看不過我想其實從今年2月開始許多委員他是針對111年的我們雞蛋的專案進口是112年的部分所以當這些資料開始釋出的時候"},{"start":8504.969,"end":8506.231,"text":"我先問一下買斷這件事情有沒有違法?"},{"start":8525.433,"end":8551.168,"text":"我想整個的貿易的交易的過程中你用合約也可以用到貨付款的方式也可以這是一個非常正常的一個過去來的政府都有採用這兩種方式都有進行這個貨到付款的方式其實在中央區長會其實他已經行事了非常久的一個我會再問一下過去有哪些是用曾經也用這樣的方式來進行我想豬肉的部分有沒有豬肉的部分也是用這樣的方式在哪一年的時候"},{"start":8554.813,"end":8577.067,"text":"這三年都有這三年都有用直接買斷的方式買斷的方式去處理那還有其他的例子嗎報告委員我們在續展會的傳交條件裡面只要透過所謂的直接市場的購入的部分大家都會用這個方式那這幾年大概就是豬肉跟雞蛋這幾年主要這兩個"},{"start":8579.387,"end":8601.475,"text":"部長我要提的其實在2022年的時候那時候其實就缺氮的狀況就開始甚至社會不斷的有一些生意那到了我都還看到了這個媒體的報導當時的時候甚至於還有立委還認為說連這個中國大陸的他雖然有情流感他覺得也可以一樣可以進來就那時候的整個社會的氣氛跟氛圍就是"},{"start":8602.435,"end":8627.634,"text":"台灣因為禽流感的問題而導致我們的蛋量是不足的時候大家在搶蛋的時候沒有蛋的時候一直期盼政府能夠去找到蛋來甚至很多國民黨的立委甚至各黨的立委都還要求要增加雞蛋的來源讓國內能夠充分的能夠來供應這些雞蛋所以我覺得還是還原到當時的那個脈絡裡面去當時大家期待政府是有積極作為來引進這些雞蛋的嘛"},{"start":8628.614,"end":8645.14,"text":"所以包括剛剛部長有提到嘛包括2022年2023年都有那就我所了解的齁當時幾乎是只要誰能夠掌握到這個雞蛋能夠把雞蛋進來大概都是你們買斷甚至引進進來的一個主要的這個依據是吧是這樣吧"},{"start":8645.66,"end":8661.725,"text":"是這樣子喔,就111年的部分因為有一部分是氣候關係還有侵略關係但是那時候的缺氮的嚴重性沒有1120那麼嚴重所以那時候我們剛好是COVID-19的復甦的第二年然後相對的很多氮的需求增加然後雞蛋的產能不夠的時候"},{"start":8662.825,"end":8685.323,"text":"那那個不夠的時候配合穩定後端的一個物價所以我們開始啟動這個雞蛋的進口那當時的時候只有台美澳這三個國家能夠進口的時候所以我們在112年才會比較著重在日本的雞蛋進口可是日本的雞蛋相對的也遇到類似的問題所以誠如委員所說的我們在"},{"start":8686.204,"end":8694.19,"text":"我記得當時還有很多人講說日本的蛋為什麼便宜事實上日本也很多也是進口進來的所以我們其實也是用日本這樣的做法來進口蛋來滿足台灣的需要那裡面談到合約那個部分我看到甚至有的講到超市2022年是用買斷的方式2023年是用簽約的方式"},{"start":8714.065,"end":8729.119,"text":"那亮彩的部分2022年是用簽約的方式嗎?是不是?他在那個4月之前是用簽約的方式因為那個時候是用合約的方式後來我們發現說4月以後的那個缺段情況可能比較嚴峻了"},{"start":8730.48,"end":8754.9,"text":"所以你們在考量上如果沒那麼急迫狀況下你們會採用簽約是不是但是如果在比較急迫搶蛋的同時的時候你們會採用誰有現貨能夠買斷就直接做出來對 這個部分就是我們考量用合約還是用買斷的方式的其中之一啦因為合約的話就必須要有一個比較長期性的像2023那個專案進口的時候我們希望有一個比較長期性能穩定供應的那2011年的時候"},{"start":8757.022,"end":8772.841,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8776.426,"end":8790.523,"text":"從去年8月一直要提到現在已經快了一年的時間了內部也做了相關的調查 部長就你的調查了解到底裡面有沒有涉及到違法的事項我想基本上我們看到的情證調查的結果他有非常"},{"start":8791.144,"end":8806.295,"text":"有一些續產會那邊在整個基站的處理過程中有一些形成的一個一個瑕疵跟疏失有檢討的空間那我舉個例子就像我們看到了就是他沒有依照政府採購法去做的部分您講的是倉儲跟運輸這個對倉儲跟運輸的部分對"},{"start":8808.396,"end":8810.158,"text":"那這些部分檢調有沒有介入在做調查的?"},{"start":8826.215,"end":8852.761,"text":"我想我們看到的就是我們沒有辦法去很清楚釐清的就是我們與區長會的部分是貨到付款很單純可是我們也看到了部分的那個雞蛋齁亮彩跟超私有私人的這些司法人的一個關係的一個貿易關係那這個關係我們已經以農業部督導的角色什麼時候移送的?我們大概是五月底六月初的時候"},{"start":8854.001,"end":8876.167,"text":"我希望這些部分盡快的把它釐清好不好但是所有的相關政府部門的所以作為其實還是如果有任何指控是不實的部分我還希望部長要強力的去捍衛了因為這些有很多是政策性的因素那政策上當時在缺單還是要大家很多真心當然如果裡面有任何不法那當然司法該怎麼辦怎麼辦但是如果沒有涉及的部分也要還給這些同仁們清白"},{"start":8876.547,"end":8877.468,"text":"接下來我們請賴會員委員請做詢談 謝謝"},{"start":8902.437,"end":8926.635,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長跟畜牧師師長 我們請其他兩位 謝謝部長我延續就是剛剛賴瑞隆委員對於就是說在111年到112年這個蛋的一個問題當然就是說黃國昌委員他是用日本的一個規格的方式"},{"start":8927.315,"end":8927.335,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":8946.562,"end":8949.363,"text":"在這裏我要特別那個剛才那個我們蔡英主席有講到說那個蛋生產過剩的時候可以拿去吃嗎?"},{"start":8976.836,"end":8990.708,"text":"現在是沒有這樣的一個做法那之前112年那個是報廢蛋我們再去做成飼料做成堆肥啦對所以說你要做成蛋粉嘛這個蛋粉的成本是非常高的嘛是不是這樣子那個市長"},{"start":8993.157,"end":9007.883,"text":"是不是這樣子呢?報告委員沒錯,因為蛋粉的成本大概會遠高於蛋的價值好幾倍好,那我想就是說在整個就是111年到112年的這個採滿這個蛋的時候有行政上的一個瑕疵"},{"start":9008.703,"end":9034.591,"text":"可是這個續產會上面就是說我們當然就是說很多委員都講得非常清楚了可是我在這裡因為本席來自於一個農業的選區所以農業的問題對我來講非常非常的一個重要所以專案進口的一個蛋起因就是因為缺蛋可是在生產過剩的時候我們的老母雞就是也不見得全面的一個淘汰那就是說這個產銷"},{"start":9036.451,"end":9064.242,"text":"施衡、調解沒有辦法有一個一致的章節的時候缺氮、聖氮成為一個惡性的一個循環在這裡我要特別跟我們的部長就是說做一個建議啦光是就是雞舍的一個升級老母雞的一個淘汰還是消費量的一個降低這些元素其實都是在我們的檢討範圍裡頭所以我覺得這個是我們必須要有一套比較完整的一個策略"},{"start":9065.703,"end":9082.509,"text":"接著我要跟你講到了是一個飼料的一個問題我們知道就是說所有的群序所有他們吃的90%甚至也超過以90%就是來自於薏米還有就是那個薏米跟那個黃豆"},{"start":9083.189,"end":9096.383,"text":"那這一些產區全部我們都是仰賴進口的那萬一就是在禽流感就是禽流感整個封港的時候像這樣的一個狀況的時候我們有沒有什麼替代的方式呢"},{"start":9097.598,"end":9123.582,"text":"我想第一個部分就是飼料我們沒有錯就是我們從國外進口但是我們現在是用條件關稅的方式去處理那我們也希望說條件關稅能夠反映反映到反映給農民這是一件事情那第二件事情就是說我們現在目前的這些玉米飼料如果沒有的話我們還有一些其他的一些用米的方式像雞的部分也可以用產米的部分去做一個飼料的處理"},{"start":9124.062,"end":9144.203,"text":"我跟您說部長你用稅米你用公糧這些其實價格都太高了量也少顯然這一個方式還應該是第二順位的方式有沒有第一順位積極的一個方式呢還有本席在這裡還要跟你再探討一個農業相關就是相關的一個業務各"},{"start":9145.945,"end":9146.506,"text":"續產會90%是靠農業部來補助的7百人"},{"start":9167.443,"end":9168.264,"text":"國內的一個那個敘述的一個產業的一個問題的研究"},{"start":9190.999,"end":9206.341,"text":"那其實在這裡這些單位你應該要調整我剛才還跟中加兵委員講我說我們看到了你對農業的一個專業的一個精闢的掌握這個是非常重要的"},{"start":9206.821,"end":9229.43,"text":"那在這個階段裡頭有沒有辦法就是說讓畜牧業務回歸到公務體系然後你好督導你好指揮然後可以提出這樣的一個效能這個是本期在長期就是觀察到就是我們整體的一個畜牧的一個問題就整體台灣的一個畜牧的問題所以部長你覺得呢"},{"start":9230.35,"end":9254.271,"text":"我非常謝謝委員的這樣的一個建議其實這個建議我們在我們組織改造的過程中也被討論但是因為牽涉到總原額法還有它的機關的三級機關的單位來講已經滿額了但是現在沒有辦法直接把續展會納入公務體系但是一個非常重要的就是我會去強調強化整個續展會的管理系統我覺得它的管理系統有非常非常大的"},{"start":9254.912,"end":9255.132,"text":"我講的應該還有一些"},{"start":9277.732,"end":9278.753,"text":"參考的價值。對,絕對有,絕對有,謝謝你,謝謝。"},{"start":9306.035,"end":9310.498,"text":"我們是不是請農業部我們部長我們再請陳部長部長這個"},{"start":9327.472,"end":9345.499,"text":"在講農業缺工那現在事實上包括AI的一個興起那所以無人機大概也是變成一個未來農業缺工的一個利器之一所以在講農業缺工的時候當然現在我們知道從2019年就開始在推動這個無人機精準農業農噴應用的元年2019年那這個農噴也開始就有人在使用這個"},{"start":9358.703,"end":9383.603,"text":"這一個無人機的一個噴藥那這個無人機的噴藥勒事實上也是有一些狀況這個狀況就是說如果無人機勒去噴到旁邊的人還是去噴到人那他有怎樣的怎樣的一些規範嗎就是說你們對無人機的使用的這個規範"},{"start":9385.926,"end":9395.514,"text":"吳仁芝如果去噴一個戒病人的殘因為他沒像人家在排排農藥嘛對不對阿你現在吳仁芝去噴的時候阿去噴戒病人的殘"},{"start":9399.281,"end":9428.161,"text":"我們分兩個部分第一個部分就是說我們的無人機去噴到別人的船那有沒有負他的賠償責任這個現在要舉證的一個問題啦所以我們都因為通常無人機在飛如果隔壁田人在的話通常不會發生這種東西都是黑飛的啦都是一些黑飛的部分都要靠後段的這些去查證那如果查證屬實的時候第一個他違反了相關的規定他必須取得相關的證照才能飛而且飛的時候必須把他的航線上傳"},{"start":9429.142,"end":9433.23,"text":"我們可以用這個方式去處罰他但是對於他誤噴的這個部分因為現在舉證的問題會比較困擾"},{"start":9437.947,"end":9465.212,"text":"舉證問題啦當然這困難回到下一頁吼那所以無人機吼你們目前都是噴藥他是需要證件吼雙證照對然後你們是規定說一定要具有法人資格那法人資格的話就很多農民嘛吼他們是購買這個農用的無人機然後他是自然人所以他就是沒有辦法去取得這樣的"},{"start":9467.076,"end":9474.074,"text":"這樣接案的一個機會那所以你們認為這個法人資格是必要性的嗎還是說這個是可以作為一個檢討的"},{"start":9475.609,"end":9497.158,"text":"沒有,這一種法人的部分其實我們當初考量的是萬一有什麼問題的時候保險的部分然後也是一個過渡就是說我們希望在一開始的時候有一個法人能夠讓有飛手的有無人機的話能夠加入他只是一個加入的動作就可以了這樣未來在追蹤在管理會比較單純的不是由他自然能去處理"},{"start":9498.759,"end":9511.147,"text":"當初的設計是這樣子那後續如果說無人機越來越普遍的時候我們也會考慮說當我個人的時候是不是可以去做申請那這樣的一個法人比方說我是合作社我合作社可以嗎"},{"start":9512.657,"end":9536.397,"text":"可以,你要登記法人應該也可以我用合作社來申請然後合作社裡面的飛手只要他具有雙證照他就可以使用這個我們會重新充滿的檢討因為我們現在政策就是要推一鄉鎮的一個農事服務業那農事服務業有一個重要的就是無人機的朋友的部分所以這個部分我們會配套的去重新調整我們的遊戲規則"},{"start":9537.458,"end":9545.246,"text":"好,那如果有要調整的時候是不是還跟我們辦公室﹖會,我們一定會去救教育委員說明一下齁好,那在下一頁齁"},{"start":9546.272,"end":9575.627,"text":"那我們現在回到今天的主題是在講這個農業移工這一個缺工缺工的狀況那事實上農業是很特殊啦因為農業事實上柏中你已經很清楚了農業的缺工他是屬於季節性的缺工所以他變得說你除了是透過外展或者其他的媒合的一個平台你不然你在農業上你真正需要移工"},{"start":9577.257,"end":9598.773,"text":"真的符合的農業的品項不多可能在畜牧業或可能是蘭花他們是全年到當都有工作可是農業的話他就是季節性他就大開的時候需要他也燒開的時候就不需要移工所以對他來說這個移工是一個額外的成本"},{"start":9599.293,"end":9619.424,"text":"所以他們一定每個人大家都會將本求利所以變成說我去找合法的移工我身分太高那我當然大家都要找黑工去找這些逃逸的然後就變成說他在勞力的缺口上他需要的反而是類似這樣的逃逸外勞這個很矛盾"},{"start":9620.804,"end":9637.01,"text":"否則你們都沒有想要這個問題委員報告就是的確現在那種短時間季節性的缺工才是一個比較大的一個核心的問題所以我們在做那個移工外展的服務的時候假期都只有不能跨區現在可以跨區"},{"start":9637.95,"end":9637.97,"text":"部長!"},{"start":9652.807,"end":9668.736,"text":"可是外展我們也推了4年多了吧可是你們發現說事實上真正在用外展的還是我剛剛講的可能是在畜牧業還是比較還是比較集中型的產業就是說他的工作是比較他去用外展農糧的應該也有啊農糧的相對的跟其他當然畜牧還是比較多啦變成說"},{"start":9678.662,"end":9701.446,"text":"其中我剛剛講的季節性缺工的再用外展的他用這樣媒合的相對還是很困難所以部長我具體建議啦你們思考看看啦就是說以農業來說農業可不可以因為他的特殊性然後我們讓外勞是可以兼職的目前外勞是不是只能做一份工作"},{"start":9703.041,"end":9722.044,"text":"不管是哪一種外勞可能是工廠的或者是勞動契約透過勞動契約去限制對阿所以我們如果針對農業你可以同意讓外勞他是兼職然後就是在做農業你的問題都解決了捏"},{"start":9723.39,"end":9748.186,"text":"部長你懂我的意思嗎?比方說我是在做家庭照顧的外勞那如果我在農業缺工的這段時間 類似外財 讓他們去登記 讓他們兼職不要說他就去討食工作 然後就被抓到 就要被送回去你只要外勞可以兼職 可以讓他工作之餘可以去選擇做什麼工作"},{"start":9750.383,"end":9756.844,"text":"阿就單農業這一下我們不要把它開放到其他的工業那裡因為農業它就是一個很特別的阿"},{"start":9758.133,"end":9781.68,"text":"你只要讓他兼職,那些律師都沒必要啦,他就乖乖的,乖乖的,要照顧,要做長照啊,還是要照顧的,他就乖乖的。但是他啊,時間最長的出來的,讓他去兼職,讓他去去產林去那裡倒烤草,去產林去那裡烤粿啊,這樣怎麼有什麼不對?"},{"start":9784.104,"end":9806.105,"text":"我覺得你這個想法的確可以解決非常多的問題但是這牽涉到勞動法規的一個限制我會跟勞動部講就是說我們農業為什麼未老是沒有辦法解目前的外產或者是我們現在你開放移工可是這些移工他賣掉他都會變成他都會逃走"},{"start":9807.593,"end":9819.281,"text":"他都會跑去 然後後來你看到事實上吼我們是大家心照不宣吶 很多農業他會吹的那些火辣都黑金啦 都頭衣外套啦"},{"start":9821.271,"end":9821.732,"text":"來稍微講一下就好"},{"start":9849.147,"end":9852.674,"text":"主席再給我30秒就好我剛剛講的都有聽到嘛"},{"start":9855.188,"end":9878.994,"text":"謝謝委員的指教這個部分在就業服務法裡面目前針對這種攔領的移工我們是考慮到說他有生活管理的責任的問題所以目前是一個移工一個雇主所以這個部分如果要放寬讓他可以兼職的話就會衍生他在兼職的過程當中會有他的生活管理包括職災的發生或者是逃逸的責任的歸屬這個都是細部問題啊對所以那個部分可能這個問題就是拿出來檢討就好了啊就是說他"},{"start":9881.395,"end":9904.983,"text":"做登記,類似外展的一個登記,登記完後他在兼職工作的時候責任由第二個僱主來負擔。這個部分可能還在需要演繹,包括我們的...沒關係,我是覺得你要演繹這個啦。你第一你一定要改觀,不要讓外流都是偷走的,都是偷移外流,這第一你一定要改觀。第二你一定要改觀農業缺工的問題。農業這種季節先缺工這沒辦法。"},{"start":9909.197,"end":9934.556,"text":"他就是長這個樣子所以你們勞動部一定要去想辦法我們會跨部會一起來努力好不好好謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢談來謝謝主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關首長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生我們有請陳部長"},{"start":9937.113,"end":9960.362,"text":"我們再請陳部長還有農副司的陳司長 農糧署的蘇代理署長好 以上二位一併來 委員長部長好 市長好 署長好部長 過去強弱的時候 我們是不是協調我們的國軍 弟兄 少吃蛋 改用其他蛋白質"},{"start":9963.439,"end":9989.134,"text":"現在我們蛋很多可不可以協調國防部請我們國軍兄多吃蛋我想我們已經發文就是請我們的因為蛋有非常好的蛋白質然後一天吃兩顆蛋也不會因為這樣子而有一些膽固醇現在是蛋太多跟缺蛋多我們反過來操作第二個問題可能署長或市長這邊想一下那天請教你雷鳳的問題"},{"start":9991.167,"end":10010.578,"text":"你也好好關心,請附宿長去了解那我現在發現檸檬的問題主要是一個產銷的問題啦就是說對於因為檸檬它是加價的嘛所以它的用藥殘留很嚴格那我知道呢對於彼此互相用藥最關心的就是什麼?"},{"start":10010.578,"end":10017.642,"text":"酪農啦因為酪農喔,他們不可能一台輪車,欸是集乳車啦不是那個輪車喔不要聽錯了齁"},{"start":10019.179,"end":10043.05,"text":"一輪車是一台車要塞整輪的木頭所以說只要一個牧場有牛生病打了抗生素驗出來整個所有的木頭都知道用了所以互相他們彼此之間對彼此顧慮到別人的乳品不要被污染他們對自己的牛吃的管理健康管理很重視不會害到別人你聽懂意思嗎?相信說這雷夢的事情是假的"},{"start":10044.531,"end":10045.292,"text":"我請問你 你是不是農家主帝?"},{"start":10072.964,"end":10074.365,"text":"我這邊創造一個叫做農業學工啦"},{"start":10098.683,"end":10121.869,"text":"農忙、下田、農閒、上學啊,你有沒有聽過建教合作以前他叫施謙是在擱金?有有高職的建教合作只有暑假才去上工嗎?不是,它是整個的工廠的工班跟他們的學期把它分開來工廠不忙的時候學校幫他們安排課程,這樣了解了齁?對我現在開始詢問了,來我們從業人口要跌破50萬,那怎麼辦?是不是你們就要移工,是不是這樣?"},{"start":10123.11,"end":10147.88,"text":"我講從業林口本身50.9萬基本上我們覺得他從主力的農家來講他應該還有機會少一點然後更精準所以不是量的問題是質的問題我同意好了我們看剛才都問農業的移工有長期的移工長期的缺工跟季節性的缺工你說有自行聘僱跟外展服務你知道為什麼外展服務不好用嗎?市長有什麼好用?市長你說我常常問你啊有什麼好用?"},{"start":10150.407,"end":10159.077,"text":"大概在外展的話,因為他...我農會要有很多人,我知道他一定會受害嘛。農會喔,他原來有很多啦,所以說他...不管你說經濟很多啦。啊,我們經濟多,他就派調動,這裡站兩個站三個敲八八,農忙的時候敲八八,農閒的時候沒回去,是不是這樣?"},{"start":10169.89,"end":10173.153,"text":"所以我們來看一看你知道教育部過去有建教合作現在有產學攜手嗎?"},{"start":10193.82,"end":10215.2,"text":"你知道有沒有辦新南向的這個合作班?這個之前我們特別是在印尼菲律賓的部分,成交非常好我跟你講,一樣遇到跟那個外展一樣,因為那個特大學的,他在這特大學,學期是固定的"},{"start":10216.041,"end":10234.389,"text":"所以說他們在用上課之餘去實習不見得農家好用目前比較好用的就是畜牧業 因為是有的 那些在那裡做工的 每天的 往下看所以我現在是說 讓你回憶一下高職的以前的建交合作 如果說我們從高職 現在有個3加4 有沒有聽過3加4"},{"start":10238.651,"end":10255.517,"text":"再三天、四天、七天、十六天就來台灣．可以參加這項在他執政時的類似建交合作．他生課大後．他可以好好配合．他的農盲去挑戰他的上課時間．了解意思嗎?"},{"start":10255.517,"end":10263.599,"text":"了解了解,我們看一下．所以說我們希望你去思考一下．不要只從外籍移工來思考．不要讓勞動部覺得很麻煩．廠工啊．"},{"start":10265.64,"end":10280.712,"text":"我不是東廠的那個工喔 是廠工 廣場的廠工 因為其實都是什麼 都是操時工作啦 早上5點去餵米糧啦 8點去上班啦 5點下班後就來偷走啦 其實還要當部門的同意啦"},{"start":10284.513,"end":10301.958,"text":"但是學生不同學生農業學工他來這邊求學位他花六七年的時間學校安排他的學習農忙下田農閒上課你覺得可不可以考慮我覺得可以考慮他們在暑假的時候不是暑假他們的寒暑假"},{"start":10302.338,"end":10325.645,"text":"不是根據學校的作息是根據農業的需求來調整因為是專班你覺得可沒有可能我覺得可以去考慮我覺得這個部分特別是未來去培養他們變成農業的經營者是一個非常重要的因為他們對於馬來、對於印尼他們很多人我們要學習就是要等於大家做老闆、大家開房子、開房子所以我這個事情要請教你覺得教育部會不會支持"},{"start":10326.499,"end":10352.964,"text":"就是說特別的專班他的上課時間是配合農閒的時間來上課農盲讓他們下田實習你認為有沒有可能我覺得這個要去談細節然後有願意有學校願意把他的課程跟農盲做配合對這個部分你們在講史崗委員來說明清楚是不是你同意跟教育部研究新來的專班我覺得一定會跟他們去討論好不好如果可以的話我們一定往前走主席也支持啦這樣請兩個部長去參詳啦我就問到這裡好不好好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝部長"},{"start":10371.897,"end":10375.379,"text":"主席謝謝我想請部長我們再請陳部長部長早安"},{"start":10403.962,"end":10425.49,"text":"農業移工的問題我想大家都非常的關心尤其我們雲林縣我每一次跟我們的農民在對話他們都告訴我說真的非常需要農業移工而且呢他們其實合法的管道對於他們來說非常的困難完全是緩不濟急為什麼會有這樣子的狀況呢部長"},{"start":10426.85,"end":10447.931,"text":"我想分為兩個層次就是說現在的移工本身有一部分是他本身的規模比較大的大農場但是他的合配比比較高所以他沒有辦法請到那另外一部分就是他想要請外籍移工但是他的規模沒到到那邊所以我們根據這個已經降低了相關準備降低他的相關門檻"},{"start":10448.812,"end":10465.432,"text":"是部長我希望說我們可以更彈性一點就是更彈性一點讓真正缺工的這些農民可以請到移工否則你可以看我們臺灣的這個農業就業人口比10年前下降了7個百分點"},{"start":10466.273,"end":10471.7,"text":"這個百分點就是說可能是務農賺不到錢或者是他們明明賺得到錢但工人不足導致他們沒辦法順利的獲利所以這個我覺得說可以說是農業部就是照顧農民就是農業部的天職"},{"start":10483.174,"end":10495.941,"text":"所以這個部分希望部長可以重視說我們農業的人口一直下降這也代表著農業部越來越不重要你知道嗎所以我也希望說我們可以好好照顧農民讓農民賺得到錢那這樣子農民的"},{"start":10498.562,"end":10500.083,"text":"現在目前8505人大概70%那我們估計到年底就會額滿"},{"start":10528.063,"end":10557.663,"text":"那明明我們農業很缺工為什麼這個原額沒有額滿為什麼呢?這個簽得到相關的一個申請的他們有的在申請程序就是我想要講的就是說現在農業移工的合配比率還是非常的嚴苛10人以下的農民或團體一個本勞只能配一個外勞如果是10人以上的農民團體只能占全部的四成以下現在農民本來都請不到了你設這個限制他如何一比一"},{"start":10560.265,"end":10581.12,"text":"這個合配比的部分是勞動部的一個規劃那我們會積極的去爭取包括我剛才說的我先處理10人以上的35%我希望說能夠朝向1比1的方式就是說沒有必要鎖定1比1啊就是這樣子的話變成是他本勞都請不到他外勞更請不到你等於鎖死了他所有的機會啊"},{"start":10583.121,"end":10592.027,"text":"我是希望說你們跟勞動部可以趕快妥善的一起研議啊那如果說是不是有辦法說你如果一比一假設他只有一個農民對一個一個外勞他們兩個溝通不了你有辦法成立類似小團體他外勞團體他可以輪著去不同的農場我覺得這也是一個可行的這個就是我們以農會為核心的就是"},{"start":10605.876,"end":10614.405,"text":"但是你農會你也設定了很多的一個比例讓他沒有辦法好好的去申請我提醒部長一件事情日本跟我們一樣他們現在邁向高齡少子化的社會他們的農業跟我們一樣也缺工"},{"start":10620.251,"end":10639.549,"text":"所以呢他們現在要鬆綁外籍移工的法規限制而且可以領到假設他們領到日本特定技能勞工第二類的身份就可以申請無限期延長簽證可以攜帶家屬同行之外最終得以申請"},{"start":10640.45,"end":10641.39,"text":"您剛才講日本人的案例據我了解其實勞動部也"},{"start":10665.88,"end":10666.04,"text":"拜訪農業部長"},{"start":10686.906,"end":10687.086,"text":"我們會來努力"},{"start":10705.382,"end":10726.839,"text":"另外這個是從今天早上到現在大家都想知道的請問部長取得中央續產會2022年8月採購日本雞蛋的合約公司到底是哪一家公司我想以續產會來講就是是不是量財我們是採貨到付款我先問你嘛我說是不是量財量財我了解是量財進口雞蛋"},{"start":10732.076,"end":10752.582,"text":"那我想要知道說量彩是一個依美生物科技人力仲介的這樣子資本額只有100萬的公司為什麼當初量彩可以拿到合約呢?第一個因為這件事情我稍微問了我們同仁基本上的營業項目是符合的第一個營業項目是符合的第二個我剛才說的我們在當初"},{"start":10753.802,"end":10760.009,"text":"緊急的狀況之下需要彈的話只要你有能力拿到日本彈我可以再問一下部長就是說那為什麼童年付款的對象卻變成是超市呢到底是跟誰簽約給誰輸入許可應該就是要付錢給誰為什麼他們"},{"start":10770.359,"end":10770.819,"text":"9月付款給操司是簽約還是買斷?"},{"start":10796.144,"end":10807.351,"text":"在4月以後幾乎都是買斷的方式 4月以後沒有 4月以後都是買斷的方式 我就是問你你確認說9月付款給超市是簽約還是買斷?不知道 因為都是買斷的 那亮采原本的約有沒有履約?亮采的約是到4月 4月之前都有履約啊 所以你確定亮采有履約?"},{"start":10824.169,"end":10826.572,"text":"我問你他有沒有履約?所以應該是沒有問題啊?"},{"start":10843.544,"end":10845.125,"text":"所以這個最匪夷所思的是如果照你這樣講 量產也沒有問題 超市也沒有問題啊"},{"start":10862.278,"end":10871.22,"text":"所以如果都沒有問題的話為什麼要移送減掉?因為你有移送就是有問題嘛你自己也覺得有問題啊移送不代表有問題移送是希望把這個事情做一個釐清"},{"start":10883.8,"end":10889.768,"text":"所以你自己內部都沒辦法釐清你是付錢的人你沒辦法釐清我們沒有問題你付錢給誰你不知道續產會絕對沒問題因為絕對沒問題你現在敢掛保證嗎你敢幫續產會保證嗎我跟你說你這個太嚴重了喔你要幫他保證的話就嚴重了喔"},{"start":10902.703,"end":10909.847,"text":"這個程序都沒問題 貨到付款 他拿到貨了 然後付錢就沒問題 那我跟請教部長 農業部這個補助續產會 冷藏倉儲租金1165萬 跟雞蛋的托運費295萬 總共1460萬"},{"start":10922.365,"end":10925.328,"text":"結果續產會實際核銷只有723萬所以可以就是追繳回50%的補助款對不對"},{"start":10934.239,"end":10952.804,"text":"對,因為這邊講的一些1165跟295是計劃當初核定的,但是最後實際的核銷...那他有繳回嗎?我們在當初口頭的時候已經說要繳回,現在在做行政程序所以他到現在都還沒有繳回?那個是一個行政程序在過...所以到現在都還沒有繳回?對,他們會繳回,但是現在在行政程序當中"},{"start":10953.744,"end":10968.184,"text":"我我我就是一個結論啊就是政府的錢幾億元都可以給沒有簽約的公司幾百萬的補助費給的也很隨便農業部到底是出了什麼問題我覺得這一點部長你一定要"},{"start":10969.165,"end":10970.906,"text":"接下來我們請張旗開委員請做巡檔"},{"start":11003.464,"end":11006.125,"text":"最近雞蛋盛產我們的蛋籠跟蛋商都很慘可是我沒想到的是"},{"start":11031.263,"end":11055.766,"text":"最近中央市場會還倒蛋還倒貨進我們的這個市場不是應該減少這個蛋的量嗎怎麼中央市場會還火上加油呢這裡面出了至少有三大的衝擊第一有沒有衝擊影響到我們蛋農的生計第二破壞了你農業部最重要的任務產銷的平衡第三個可能也會出現的"},{"start":11056.96,"end":11082.685,"text":"已經要釋出的是去年過期的蛋或者即將過期的蛋等一下這部分我沒有好好談我有數據給你看有沒有過期的蛋或即將過期的蛋吃到我們的肚子我畫一個問號等一下我們來談來這三部分我先問你部長這次產銷失衡就是蛋太多嘛對不對你的任務跟中央稀產會的任務一個是煮雞蛋鹹炒結果為什麼"},{"start":11086.277,"end":11109.441,"text":"反而中央市場會為今年5月17日開始：到現在已經5梯次公開飆搜彈兩天太多了你再倒兩下去火上加油我算起來錢一彈加上蛋黃一彈茶葉一彈滷蛋你如果算是用顆的這個顆量大概已經倒進市場兩千兩百多萬顆"},{"start":11115.801,"end":11135.197,"text":"這個會不會太離譜了?你要解決問題的人 接著我去製造問題這台灣會覺得什麼?生雞兩個沒有 又半雞三個有是不是?如果從行政學上去看是什麼?行政管理上是什麼?失職、失能、又失德有些農民都已經氣到 講一句話我先抱歉講很夭壽的你沒有解決問題 你從市長會 這時候會倒貨進去現在畫面 你想像那兩個畫面單車"},{"start":11143.975,"end":11172.916,"text":"兩天買起來的錢都沒夠啊弄到後來前幾天有那麼多媒體都報導那個畫面大家想一下有些為了要減少蛋再進到市場欸 拿去吃爹欸就是要減少他的量啊結果你想像這邊 欸都多心疼的事情結果你想像這邊的畫面是什麼中央市場會 五月十七開始你要倒到市場裡面倒了2200多萬顆蛋進去這人民不會憤怒嗎求我們善良的農民是不是"},{"start":11175.25,"end":11181.498,"text":"市長,這個中央市長會到底在幹嘛?因為台灣人民有跟我問題嗎?他反而製造了問題欸!"},{"start":11182.782,"end":11182.942,"text":"是否這樣?"},{"start":11213.422,"end":11234.41,"text":"現在是產量過剩喔!要減少喔!中華稀產會現在不只沒有減少喔!他還倒貨進來喔!你贊成他這樣做是不是?不是我贊成這樣做喔!這個是在產價調節的一個環喔!因為這些進口加工...調節!調節是應該減少他的量!讓價格回升啊!倒貨不是價格越來越高?你怎麼會?你這是火上加油!怎麼會是解決問題?"},{"start":11235.47,"end":11236.01,"text":"我還需要去吃一個雞蛋嗎?"},{"start":11264.687,"end":11289.887,"text":"不是不是,那個液彈是...對阿,你現在紫外,我跟你說,你現在沒對,你現在為了機能生鮮的可能要壞掉了你故意,你現在就必須要把它變成加工嘛,對不對我現在所有的資料都是從中央續產會的進口彈的這個加工品專區拖出來的東西去年快過期了,或者我甚至擔心有沒有過期問題,就是沒有過期,也即將過期,對不對為了要保存多一點點,所以要把它打成液彈嘛"},{"start":11290.848,"end":11315.576,"text":"那你應該是去年賣阿 或者是雞蛋少的時候賣阿因為你現在找雞蛋太多 太多的時候你又把蛋丟進去勒我沒有這種離譜的 那你剛講的 你說兩個有不一樣嗎他都是蛋阿 我只有吃了一蛋你今天試出來不是 聽我說喔 你今天試出來不是只有一蛋喔你還試出了茶葉蛋跟滷蛋 我今天我要吃一顆 茶葉蛋吃一顆"},{"start":11317.236,"end":11318.456,"text":"你這麼專業的人你應該是有專業的你是有知識沒有常識嗎?"},{"start":11346.004,"end":11370.092,"text":"你明明那個市場就過多了,價格已經跌成這樣,你量這邊加進去,你還在幫他辨護?沒有,不是,我是說整個雞蛋本身的...你是有專念,你是有資格,可是我剛剛講的是不是一個常識問題啊?對,這個部分就是...你為什麼你的農業部的功能是什麼?產跟消要平衡對不對?那產就已經生產過剩啊,啊你還把東西加進去,過剩什麼叫做平衡?太多的東西要變少對不對?"},{"start":11371.744,"end":11376.127,"text":"我問一個更嚴重的你目前已經丟了2200多萬個進去的我去看你去年給我的資料我看一下你加起來一共還有"},{"start":11398.761,"end":11404.223,"text":"我想我們會基於他們的專業的判斷,會去調整他們釋出的時間點。欸,保證,保證,農民已經氣到不知道,不是給他憤怒而已喔。"},{"start":11427.106,"end":11444.932,"text":"施職施農已經要求說實在施得了人民現在能夠多憤怒能夠罵多重的話再想一想在施農的時候你為什麼倒這麼多蛋已經不對了你現在嘔氣了還事情發了我們一定會觀察他本身的一個產銷平衡狀態去決定他的調不然就去收債啊你要丟蛋進去好第二個 我知道你有做你的專業"},{"start":11454.653,"end":11474.905,"text":"人在公門 我一直在強調這件事 那公門好休閒 有腦袋之外拜託有一個心啦好不好 剛剛宗嘉濮議員 宗嘉濮立委 我覺得他的質詢很好啊 要說農就消費啊 拜託國賃 這營養的農可以加一塊 我覺得不管是哪一個黨 有心幫人民解決問題就是好立委 一樣啊"},{"start":11476.055,"end":11502.757,"text":"不是只有腦袋,有心,部長到目前大家對你評價不錯,你有心你就是一個好官員,你現在都沒有感受到那種痛嗎?你若是一個養雞戶,你是一個彈籠,是一個彈山,心裡是在糖血的,因為你看到有些對你這些問題我當然了解,我當然了解,我們會努力來做這個方面好不好,我提兩個,我們動動腦啦,我們用心跟用腦幫彈籠跟人民解決問題,第一"},{"start":11504.713,"end":11514.918,"text":"農產品太多的時候你都去補助了嘛 考慮一下怎麼去補助蛋農 特別是在飼料那一塊有沒有 休息了 你已經降低關稅了 想一下能不能再有一點補助這是一個 第二個更重要 你鼓你進口蛋進口太多對不對 你做了什麼動作"},{"start":11533.166,"end":11537.192,"text":"你不能用同樣的方法嗎?你叫國軍買伊丸,你跟我們農業部,你叫中央市政府買一些回來啊!"},{"start":11550.024,"end":11562.752,"text":"買一些回來買完回來一樣一樣做成蛋液一樣做成滷蛋跟茶葉蛋以後需要再賣可以賣這個就是我我跟委員報告我們現在正在評估齁這就是我講的齁我們必須有一些國產蛋去做一個庫存緩衝的一個空間啦去做一個調配啦但是這個調配需要比較細緻的操作"},{"start":11576.543,"end":11597.783,"text":"其實你剛才主席剛才在對話我就聽了你說你現在要控制到一天就是2400萬顆嘛對不對?是目前其實為什麼過剩?接三十...三十二萬顆左右三十二萬顆的蛋出來嘛所以我就在想你又丟了2200萬顆好 那至少這個多出來的蛋你可以買啊 像去年一樣啊買完以後 它做成一袋它就有一年喔"},{"start":11598.988,"end":11622.747,"text":"對不對?你都可以幫外國,為什麼不能幫我們本國?好好想一下這個事,好不好?我了解,我們已經有在這樣一個規劃有規劃是不是?趕快做好不好?我這些量都可以講啦你現在目前你看,今年你買7千顆放在那裡嘛你至少今年你可以買我們本國的蛋啊,買7千顆一百那量就減少了嘛,就真的達到產銷平衡了嘛,對不對?7千顆沒有過期,你把它做成一蛋"},{"start":11623.447,"end":11647.629,"text":"做成茶葉蛋 每年你買一百到未來一年你隨時缺蛋你就放出去好不好 因為冬天需要量好 謝謝 所以抱歉 好消極麵我抱歉我講一下消極麵剩下你四千五百丁 不要再釋出了好不好 不要再到貨了這是消極麵 第二個積極麵 都知道講的 考慮一下補助 適量 讓我們的蛋籠"},{"start":11648.581,"end":11648.601,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":11664.321,"end":11677.548,"text":"期待是一個好的觀念好不好好 德佳好 謝謝那我們也請部長將你所謂的很細緻的這個方案競速提出然後送交給我們經濟委員會謝謝 協助淡龍接下來我們請黃仁委員 謝謝"},{"start":11691.843,"end":11708.918,"text":"有請部長我們再請陳部長謝謝主席來委員長好我就以你的業務報告裡面的原住民農產業發展與現況針對臺東縣長濱鄉倒稅劫死累累代收割已經遭到迷惑的大勢的破壞"},{"start":11719.927,"end":11742.374,"text":"那殘米香這個第一期的稻穗做目前等待收割中但有些田區每天遭受到這個米吼的入侵而且很多的這個稻米還沒未成熟就已經大肆的破壞那這個問題包含我們在那個什麼在"},{"start":11743.598,"end":11761.17,"text":"加走廊部落裡面有很多山豬入侵包含猕猴入侵你們如何現在對這個來防範甚至在其他的鄉鎮裡面的稻穗也曾經不是曾經是現在都一直在破壞當中你們如何防治"},{"start":11765.011,"end":11787.085,"text":"我跟委員說明就是說米油其實它的危害不只是現在講的水道其實還有很多果樹類的部分常常會受到這個米油的危害那現在我們林業保育署裡面他有提供這樣的一個電器那個電木器的部分微網的部分去做一些一些就是去喉的動作或者是防保但是這些措施對於水道來講他"},{"start":11788.766,"end":11788.786,"text":"第2個 這個"},{"start":11814.827,"end":11838.593,"text":"有關於簽電網如檢疫電網請問一下農業部有什麼什麼什麼樣的方式的補助那另外另外你們在做書面報告待會提出的事項那部落設計發展以農業農農產業的這個發展回鄉族人以在地成員形成新興組織的重要議題第一個"},{"start":11842.992,"end":11845.516,"text":"農業部目前有沒有大規模的園鄉農業推廣．或者部落主體的產業發展規劃那第二"},{"start":11853.533,"end":11876.903,"text":"原鄉離消費市場甚遠除了運銷成本高外受到銷售管道的限制近年來銷售進況不盡理想導致族人種種的意願降低請問農產品銷售管道狹隘次貸風險大農業部有如何解決的方法第三"},{"start":11878.663,"end":11890.428,"text":"農業部有沒有對原鄉特定作物補貼．或者修耕補助方案．請一周內給我一個回答另外本席認為在農業記憶土地記憶與原鄉的發展是直接連結在一起的"},{"start":11898.971,"end":11918.739,"text":"這樣才能夠實現以農為本的抵抗政治才能夠找回土地對原住民族回鄉者的一個真實的一個回鄉意願這個報告能不能提供給我我想跟委員報告你應該所列的東西我們會提供報告給你我只簡單的說明"},{"start":11920.18,"end":11920.36,"text":"好,這樣子"},{"start":11946.537,"end":11947.437,"text":"好 我們會提供好 謝謝"},{"start":11976.365,"end":11997.133,"text":"謝謝好那因為要11點50了我們中午不休息到今天會議結束那我們原本預定下午1點鐘要做公糧收購價格黨團協商提前到本日議程結束後立即進行好現在我們繼續詢談請黃珊珊委員請做詢談等一下等一下"},{"start":12004.906,"end":12006.046,"text":"請問您在接任部長之前在農委會擔任多久的職務?"},{"start":12022.998,"end":12042.357,"text":"我108年3月進到農委會你是長期的農委會擔任我認識你的時候你應該是副主委是所以應該我們在臺北市政府也很謝謝農委會對於臺北市相關農產運銷或者是北農的這些支持所以"},{"start":12044.407,"end":12059.869,"text":"當時的副主委現在的部長應該非常清楚台北市在新建所謂的第一漁國國菜市場跟漁市場的改建中當時我賢命因為台北市議會要求我們必須要來跟中央爭取補助這個國菜市場"},{"start":12060.934,"end":12083.684,"text":"還有漁市場的改建總共花費大概140億當時議會有下一個決議說因為北農的大股東有一個叫做農委會你們的股東應該是22.76台北漁業公司的部分全國漁會的股份也有39%所以要求我們要跟中央來爭取"},{"start":12085.939,"end":12097.815,"text":"部長看一個照片這是我們接受議會要求之後其實我們我就帶著董事長跟總經理來拜訪陳其中主委這件事情你知道嗎知道您知道嗎"},{"start":12099.798,"end":12126.716,"text":"當時會面的時候不知道我事後知道事後所以我們當時爭取新建經費然後主委說因為這個部分臺北市是一級財政城市所以不予補助但是陳主委當時就說接下去新建好了以後冷鏈還有相關的拍賣軟體設備的部分農委會可以考慮來協助就是內部的部分所以我想問一下陳主委講的話現在的陳部長會不會"},{"start":12129.238,"end":12156.503,"text":"我想我的態度也一樣就是說當因為批發市場是一個非常重要的一個市場所以內部的包括的冷鏈的部分特別是拍賣能夠升級的部分我想我們都會支持所以現在如果按照接下去的他的硬體還在蓋但軟體的部分我希望農業部在前陳主委跟現在的陳部長我們希望他不是只是單純臺北市的工程而是他是一個重要的全國的"},{"start":12156.983,"end":12162.124,"text":"臺北市的農產運銷相關的這些過程裡面我們其實很辛苦的就是在過程裡面我看到您在2020年其實已經開始推動所謂的分級包裝"},{"start":12185.52,"end":12186.48,"text":"我們每天有一千七百噸的"},{"start":12210.95,"end":12212.83,"text":"所以分期包裝一直以來有在推但是效果好像不是很好"},{"start":12239.599,"end":12239.619,"text":"部長"},{"start":12259.305,"end":12285.291,"text":"這些事情您接了部長之後會不會繼續推推的效益是不是要寫一些KPI啊不然每次都說啊要看品項要看農民那現在今天討論的又是農民幾乎沒有工人可以做事所以你怎麼樣推動分期報告我想跟委員說明喔從我的思維裡面我覺得很多進到批發市場的這特別是有些業差類的要先處理的就在產地端就要處理好"},{"start":12286.952,"end":12297.942,"text":"我會對接到他的五大的那個合作社場從合作社場那邊先處理那有一些共同運銷的部分我們希望一定要這樣做啦"},{"start":12298.581,"end":12319.292,"text":"但是部長因為沒有強迫然後第二個也沒有相關的機制我希望您上任農業部已經升格了我覺得這件事情我們不能再像原始社會一樣比如像比照日本比照相關的先進國家其實分歧包裝是很正常的事情可是在我們這邊變成是很奇怪的事第二個"},{"start":12319.952,"end":12345.47,"text":"沒有戰板化沒有標準化就會看到一大堆現在北農還是一大堆用人力在搬運沒有用起重機在搬運這是一個很原始的地方我希望改建以後這個部分農委會就剛剛您講的軟體的部分裡面相關不管是將來的拍賣或者是將來這些包裝都應該是在農委會以台北為例然後把它提升上來好嗎"},{"start":12346.793,"end":12347.733,"text":"接下來我們請侯木楷委員請做詢討"},{"start":12378.12,"end":12379.522,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":12389.013,"end":12410.865,"text":"陳部長我想還是關心一下國人都非常重視從去年到今年大家都想要知道操司雞蛋弊案爭議到底為何去年9月的時候有台北新北桃園台中高雄五個地檢署都說有接獲到民眾告發或是檢方的檢報分案依時安法或是偽造文書五路期發分案調查"},{"start":12411.385,"end":12438.693,"text":"那到今天有平面媒體報導說9個月了都沒有任何約談相關人士你自己也證實說你沒有被約談我本人我並沒有接受到約談那知道我們農業部有沒有相關人士有被約談或是這個我就沒有去詢問你沒有去詢問對我沒有去詢問所以我確認部長你覺得超思雞蛋這個爭議到現在一年多的時間了到底對農業部的形象好不好"},{"start":12439.748,"end":12466.575,"text":"我覺得會不會希望也如果說真的有人謀不章查出來如果真的沒有還農業部清白還業務同仁這是我的原則所以說那怎麼會您自己也不關心也不了解沒有我強調的就是說檢調單位查處本身如果說有不能不法我覺得不會寬待但是如果沒有不法也要還我們同仁一個清白是啊那但是9個月過去了都還沒有都還沒有讓國人釐清可是相對的齁"},{"start":12468.936,"end":12479.962,"text":"部長您的態度是什麼我想能夠把事情透過程序裡面把事情釐清是最重要的但是現在看到的就是在司法還沒有就是檢調單位還沒有"},{"start":12481.99,"end":12508.929,"text":"確認之前有很多外界的聲音就讓其實讓同仁非常困擾因為以農業部來講就是讓同仁如果說覺得困擾才更應該趕快水落石出嘛因為越滾越大從陳吉仲部長到現在你一樣都是陳部長啊但是我覺得現在國人關注的重點是到底真相為何不管是說超市雞蛋那時候花5.7億來去做補助不管說進口了這個"},{"start":12510.59,"end":12529.641,"text":"一億多顆的這個雞蛋八千多顆的雞蛋巴西來的那到現在到底真相為何還有這個不同公司簽約是A公司然後結果付款是B公司那九個月過去而今天看到這樣的一個媒體結果本席看到你回應媒體講是說我們也希望減掉建樹"},{"start":12530.936,"end":12556.836,"text":"那如果說競速號不是更應該要我們主動積極、機關主動積極的協助來辦理嗎?對,我想檢調如果任何的一個約談或是...所以看起來你沒有被約談我是沒被約談下面同仁就你了解也沒有我沒有去問所以我不清楚那到底有沒有人知道?我們同仁說目前沒有也沒有那看起來前部長陳吉仲也沒有所以都沒有"},{"start":12557.965,"end":12562.768,"text":"國人那麼關心的一個案件結果剪掉到現在也難怪媒體會用頭版頭來報導啊9個月了無盡度嘛"},{"start":12568.599,"end":12590.847,"text":"來部長那我再請教今天我更看到的是裡面有提到一個是說因為採購生鮮雞蛋帶殼雞蛋是屬於生鮮的農漁產品非屬採購法的採購標的但是冷藏倉儲跟雞蛋托運費用是全額補助那依規定是用採購法那沒有用採購法辦理對不對"},{"start":12593.764,"end":12603.633,"text":"從昨天調查報告是這樣子顯示的那我們現在是要追回五成的補助款對針對他應該用適用這種採購法的部分你的理由是什麼會認為是說他應該用採購法他沒有用採購法"},{"start":12609.411,"end":12623.613,"text":"這個我想我發30秒的時間說明一下就是當初續產會在處理這個案子的時候他認為因為雞蛋不是用政府採購法那後續的倉儲跟運輸他們覺得是因為他相對進的少他覺得應該是一批的啦"},{"start":12624.494,"end":12651.851,"text":"但是後來我們行政調查看起來是便宜形式對然後行政單位去看說後面兩個應該要適合採購法那根據這個東西我們會依法把這個錢把它追回來所以照理講我們想請教那個中央續產會他到底應不應該遵守採購法他沒有他用自己的資金都不用他只要簽得到跟政府補助的才有所謂的適不適用政府採購法的問題"},{"start":12653.22,"end":12677.848,"text":"但他的資金來源呢?不也是我們這邊會有相關的一個補助嗎?對 所以說在110年他是一個例行的政府採購嘛 例行的那個產價調節所以他有計畫上來 我們有合計畫下去 那有合計畫下去的話合計畫下去也算是政府補助不是嗎?對 所以說他不適合的時候就要追回就要追回 好 那我們來看一下去年的公文"},{"start":12680.011,"end":12693.14,"text":"工程會已經明白確認了冷凍蛋液跟冷凍蛋黃是冷凍處理非屬生鮮農業產品適用採購法那去年有什麼樣的一個 去年有什麼樣的狀況去年狀況講說"},{"start":12695.16,"end":12695.36,"text":"這是112年的嗎?"},{"start":12711.648,"end":12735.575,"text":"這是112年?2023年啊?112年的部分是所有的那個作業都是續廠會先用他自有資金處理那我們後面的計畫合定補助的設置在後面所以他不符合政府採購法的我們就給他50%以下所以沒有所謂的追求問題是!所以部長我們的冷凍蛋黃跟冷凍蛋液有給他50%以下嗎?就是給他50%以下 沒有啊!"},{"start":12737.395,"end":12760.6,"text":"你之前去年巴西進口的冷凍大法冷凍法也是一樣直接讓他做採購啊沒有你並沒有讓他去用採購法裡面不管是招標或是相關啊他如果沒有採購法的話我們的補助就是低於50%就這樣子沒有這個是去年本期現在拿出來的資料就是去年9月的時候我們有委員在質詢去年10月的時候我們有委員在質詢"},{"start":12761.9,"end":12763.002,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12771.823,"end":12798.551,"text":"沈記長那時候講是說確實純有爭議待釐清要先確認雞蛋是不是生鮮魚農產品那還有冷凍蛋液跟冷凍蛋黃是不是生鮮魚農產品那我們委員去年的時候我們的委員林維周委員就拿出這個公文就說我們在10月3號的時候就問工程會到底冷凍蛋黃農蛋液是不是農漁產品那工程會說不是嘛那現在3個月過去了我們到底有沒有去有"},{"start":12799.671,"end":12802.132,"text":"有交回50%嗎?有低於50%嗎?所以現在本席就要確認因為今天媒體報導已經講是說你的"},{"start":12826.775,"end":12852.047,"text":"冷藏、倉儲跟脫軌費用要收回50%嗎?那我們現在要問過去補助的冷凍蛋黃、冷凍蛋液有沒有要去了解?是不是如果說有補助100%也要收回50%?我現在只問的是是不是一定適用?一定一筆適用就是112年部分如果說他該適用政府採購他沒適用的話就會追回但如果說"},{"start":12853.027,"end":12874.124,"text":"他先買了我們在核定補助債後的時候我就一定不會超過50%是 所以這個就是重點嘛那什麼時候可以把資料釐清因為之前就是有爆發中央續產會就是去購買巴西的或是相關的冷凍蛋液跟冷凍蛋黃但他沒有用採購法他也直接用合約方式就直接採購了"},{"start":12875.465,"end":12901.078,"text":"所以才會讓我們去年有這樣的疑慮並且要求省紀部來去做瞭解省紀部說3個月要給資料到目前也是不了了之那本席就直接請教因為你們已經講了冷凍倉儲只要是符合採購法的追回50%那一樣冷凍蛋黃冷凍蛋液符合採購法這您剛剛已經承認了工程會也公文了那現在什麼時候要去釐清到底過去有哪一些是百分百補助要追回50%"},{"start":12902.403,"end":12902.423,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":12934.073,"end":12935.433,"text":"接下來我們請紅森漢委員請做詢談"},{"start":12975.027,"end":13000.274,"text":"謝謝主席請陳部長我們再請陳部長喂吼部長那個你有沒有察覺吼最近石虎啊草蕭啊穿山甲啊這些瀕臨絕種的保育類的動物啊其實被遊蕩犬咬死的新聞特別多"},{"start":13002.216,"end":13014.182,"text":"我有發現其實現在特別是入沙的部分那其實穿山甲是排名第一我是說被遊蕩犬那遊蕩犬的部分其實實務是比例蠻高的"},{"start":13015.327,"end":13031.558,"text":"從你們農業部統計的數量來看去年2023年在保育類跟所有野生動物被犬隻攻擊的案件裡面其實都是近5年來的新高那這數字大概代表了確實現在遊蕩犬的問題其實是越來越嚴重的"},{"start":13033.49,"end":13055.934,"text":"這問題其實不是只是野生動物被咬死這麼簡單其實我們都知道很多的遊蕩犬牠到了野外是會跟我們的野生動物相互傳染疾病的那很多科學也研究目前其實犬隻跑到野外牠們健康狀況其實更差存活率不到一半所以這個狀況變成是犬隻跟野生動物幾乎都是兩敗俱傷的狀況那部長我要問"},{"start":13060.615,"end":13088.583,"text":"犬隻是你們動保司管理嘛對不對那野生動物保育是林保署對不對那都在農業部所以部長針對這個問題你們打算怎麼辦我想我們針對這個部分其實那個動保司跟那個林保署包括我們都曾經討論過那現在就是我們會針對就是野生動物的熱區的部分先去做這個那個地區的犬隻的調查"},{"start":13090.36,"end":13095.766,"text":"這是今年5月18日的新聞這新聞上面寫說熱區移植有當權就你剛才說的事辦三個月沒下文為什麼這個新聞會這樣我可不可以請我們的動保司長說明一下"},{"start":13108.063,"end":13109.784,"text":"市長,如果你們確定接下來這些計畫是擴大的,也沒有暫停,那我覺得要跟外界說清楚"},{"start":13133.724,"end":13155.342,"text":"現在有很多擔心遊蕩犬的人他們其實看到這個新聞那都覺得那為什麼農業部接下來沒有動作我覺得對外說明清楚的部分要趕快解釋清楚而不是現在讓這樣子我在外面一直看到這個新聞大家都在傳啊我們會來說明清楚特別是台東南投跟苗栗的地區"},{"start":13156.563,"end":13184.709,"text":"部長,我當然肯定如果你們接下擴大座的部分在態度上面我是肯定的但我也看了一下今年你們在十五跟草蕭熱區的計畫那也請教了一些專家學者其實我們也發現有不少可以改進的空間第一個事情是在KPI的部分部長,你們年度目標寫遊蕩權處置率80%但我很好奇如果100隻去處置了80隻但如果後面又再新增了100隻"},{"start":13187.571,"end":13189.402,"text":"那這個處置率還有什麼意義呢?"},{"start":13191.26,"end":13220.183,"text":"你們這並不是整體的母數啊原本的100隻你處置80隻但你沒有去管那會不會有新的跑進來會不會有新的增加啊所以部長針對這個KPI你們覺得需不需要修改我跟委員說明齁我最近在看比較細的這些各單位的這些KPI的部分不只是這個啦還有其他的那些KPI我就覺得要嘛就是純粹一個數字的概念而已並沒有要回應到我們最後的政策的目的在哪邊所以我會就要求很多"},{"start":13220.763,"end":13233.011,"text":"拜託,我覺得這個是很明顯的在邏輯上面的問題所以,布朗如果你覺得OK的話,我是覺得關於這個KPI怎麼設定怎麼設計我覺得都應該有一併的檢討至少我們可以從生態熱區先來因為有蠻多的學者跟我說,確實生態熱區跟這個人類聚集的地方其實它的樣態是不太一樣的部分我覺得至少這可以先來,我們先來檢討KPI可以嗎?"},{"start":13251.504,"end":13271.385,"text":"我接下來也要問其實我們現在在法規上關於事主的責任是有明確的規範的不管是寵物登記啦不管是絕育啦施打疫苗啦不可棄養啦其實我們都有法源依據但現在問題是每次我們跟動保師討論動保師就跟我們說因為人力不足雖然法規都有所以很難落實執法"},{"start":13272.927,"end":13300.002,"text":"這是現在的問題可是我們明明看到遊蕩權越來越多但是執法端卻一直說資源不足、人力不足部長你覺得該怎麼辦我想我們之前也跟那個人事實行人種族那邊去爭取像動保法的動保的人力包括重要的部分跟地方限制政府的人力也要增加這個是正常的另外一個是用最壞人力我們現在變成是這些法規擺著不動變擺著好看"},{"start":13301.087,"end":13309.083,"text":"不會有人因為這受罰 不然我有一個建議我們剛剛都講到生態熱區的問題 我們有沒有可能我們的執法就在生態熱區來優先執法"},{"start":13312.12,"end":13335.046,"text":"優先盡情管理生態熱區的範圍當然比整體來說都小也更聚集如果資源不足的話至少在生態熱區上面我們就按照法規來你要有一定的宣導期我也贊成你可以在生態熱區有個幾個月一年的宣導期讓大家都知道我接下來開始要管理這些事情我也都同意可是我們不能法規擺的都不動啊"},{"start":13335.746,"end":13362.92,"text":"了解我想我非常同意先從生態樂區開始包括你人力的投入資源的投入可以從這邊開始投入是一回事但我剛剛現在說的是關節而把變也要開始著手進行我知道也許整個台灣的範圍很大你們人力確實不足但至少這些地方重點區域是可以開始的這部分你要有個宣導期我也不反對這樣好不好部長從這個地方我們優先開始最後一個我要要求主席再給我一分鐘"},{"start":13364.261,"end":13379.28,"text":"我們現在看到很多這些相關的計畫農業部其實大家都抱怨啦有點像關起門來自己做啦部長我其實是要求我們這些相關的包括資訊的公開包括你相關計畫書成效的評估其實都應該定期的公開"},{"start":13380.181,"end":13407.49,"text":"最後一個我是想要請部長這是很多我們生態界的專家學者們請我一定要跟你反映的我們應該定一個定期檢討的機制那這個定期檢討的機制裡面有關於資料的公開資訊的公開的部分讓外部的學者外部的各個專業者一起來參與而不會讓大家都覺得說你好像農業部自己搞自己的外面也不知道你在搞什麼也拿不到數據拿不到資料可是外面只有看到遊蕩犬的數字一直增加"},{"start":13408.41,"end":13408.51,"text":"拜託,謝謝部長"},{"start":13438.31,"end":13444.755,"text":"主席,麻煩請部長我們再請陳部長謝謝"},{"start":13467.601,"end":13493.512,"text":"部長首先我是覺得對於農業部在淡的這個產銷管理我真的覺得非常奇怪今年7月1號開始又要跟養雞協會合作又要開始殺老母雞去年的時候說要補助老母雞說進口種雞那時候很多農民跟農業部講說進口太多就會造成產能過剩那農業部說沒關係先進再講然後結果進了之後我們農業部又要再花錢去殺老母雞"},{"start":13494.622,"end":13523.367,"text":"那你會不會又會造成說到時候彈又缺彈我不知道部長能不能承諾不會再造成缺彈狀況我跟委員說明就是整個彈機場的產業鏈裡面老母機的淘汰是一個彈籠本來在這做的那我們是提供誘因讓他加速這個老母機的淘汰去年鼓勵人家多進然後今年又對叫他加速去殺然後進口彈去年的話一直進一堆進了一堆之後再花錢把它銷毀"},{"start":13524.487,"end":13549.507,"text":"我跟委員說明齁,就是您剛才...不打沒關係啦,你如果認為沒有錯的話,我是希望你可以檢討一下,因為這個產銷問題都是花人民的納稅錢,把人民的納稅錢1.1都浪費掉,然後又會造成缺蛋。我希望農業部可以把這個蛋的問題你們仔細思考一下,怎麼從源頭把它管理,不是頭都一頭腳痛一腳啦。但我今天想要問,還是一向我想要問這個,超市的問題,續產會的問題。"},{"start":13551.388,"end":13554.812,"text":"因為農業部當時大家在問說續展會這個採購有沒有問題農業部當初是說沒問題欸你們第一時間是說沒問題欸你們說因為續展會是用自有資金購買財物所以沒問題然後甚至於還推說續展會我們調查不到"},{"start":13567.587,"end":13583.568,"text":"結果現在被大家發現說不是沒問題包括你們自己剛剛你跟其他委員的詢答你都承認嘛在冷鏈還有運費這一塊他們是沒有用採購法所以是違法了嘛你現在又有問題我不知道說到底農業部跟續產會之間關係是什麼"},{"start":13585.43,"end":13596.646,"text":"因為續產會...你未來會跟他...不會跟他拒絕往來嘛你還會透過很多補助給他去採購很多農產品嘛那你到底有沒有在監督他你到底是什麼管制還有一開始第一時間為什麼是推脫"},{"start":13598.874,"end":13611.67,"text":"我跟委員說明就是續展會跟農業部的關係是我們農業部是它的督導單位所以續展會的所有的行政方面的部分我們農業部都有權利去做相關的調查你們農業部一開始面對外界質疑說續展會是用自有資金買"},{"start":13617.598,"end":13638.958,"text":"這是兩件事情齁就是我都從續產會本身的管理的部分農業部是負責督導的我們有權利去做相關的行政的一個查核這個部分是是沒問題的那第二個部分就是續產會如果有些產交條件他用自有資金先用了以後跟農業跟農業部請款的時候那就要付"},{"start":13639.278,"end":13653.656,"text":"有一部分是符合政府採購法就要政府採購法不符合政府採購法的部分我們就會50%以下那另外一類就是111年這一類他是在年度先核計劃年度先核計劃的時候他如果後續沒有照相關的規範的時候"},{"start":13654.637,"end":13679.77,"text":"那不符合規範的我們錢就會收回來當然嘛可是你這個就是後見之明你理論上來講你現在續產會是來解決國內大家缺蛋的問題所以農業部才會補助他一筆錢讓他去採購所以你先前就要跟他講清楚啊在採購的時候比如說要符合採購法規範你蛋可以不用公開不用符合採購法但是你其他運費冷鏈你要符合採購法你連這一點事情你們都無法督導"},{"start":13680.27,"end":13705.391,"text":"還要事後說你來跟我請款的時候我少給一點那我就覺得非常奇怪續產會不是大部分資金來源都是農業部嗎那這也都是人民的納稅錢啊你跟他少請的他如果虧本的話最後還不是很多時候農業部也是要補助給他所以為什麼不能事先解決一定要事後這個事情啪啪之後然後才要說喔那這個事情已經被外界知道了所以呢這個補助我們要減一半不過我想這樣農業部的態度非常消極欸"},{"start":13706.632,"end":13723.845,"text":"這個部分就是相關的這些補助案本身他就部長我只想問你啦接下來還會發生一樣狀況就是說你透過續產會要解決國內的某一個農產品稀缺的問題然後一樣讓他先去買然後他不合法之後呢你再叫他追繳"},{"start":13724.545,"end":13746.076,"text":"所以未來還會發生一樣的狀況嗎?我想不是說不合法以後才去追究沒有符合採購法就是不合法嗎?我開始剛才有跟其他委員講這個是續產會本身在這個雞蛋的採購過程中的倉儲他們是誤解的以為是他是跟著雞蛋一起一條包裝的所以後來他們了解 理論上 部長 理論上續產會跟你的關係非常密切嗎?"},{"start":13746.997,"end":13759.109,"text":"續產會董事長是林聰賢以前是農業部應該也是官派的吧這麼密切一個單位結果會讓他誤解那農業部都完全沒責任一部就是說沒關係我就少給你一點錢好像所有責任都是續產會"},{"start":13761.21,"end":13782.269,"text":"應該不是這樣吧部長 農業部對於去產會完全沒有任何督導跟管理的責任我們負有督導的責任 是嘛 所以我說相關的有很多的行政的疏失當然就是過去的事情要追究要追究 我現在講的時候那未來勒因為我現在跟部長詢答的感覺是說 都覺得你沒有錯嘛都覺得說那是去產會的事情嘛 那未來去產會是不是一樣會類似的狀況嘛"},{"start":13785.111,"end":13794.742,"text":"政府部門就要依法行事那相關的規範就要符合政府採購法這是一個大原則你若違反的話若你是惡意的故意的沒有問題是說未來農業部對於續產會是不是還是一樣的放任是不是我們絕對不會我們已經在加強續產會的管理了就是說續產會採購的時候又誤解了然後又沒有透過公開採購"},{"start":13806.275,"end":13827.746,"text":"政府採購法又繞過了然後然後農業部再說那我少給你補助這樣無止境循環會發生這樣的狀況嗎?你有沒有把握說未來跟蓄產會的監督到位我們一定會更積極的去監督這個那相關的成功率的底下有沒有能不能不上是另外一回事喔因為現在檢調在查我就不臆測但是我現在在問農業部的你的官方行政責任嘛"},{"start":13828.246,"end":13836.577,"text":"第二有關於超思跟亮彩的關係到底查清楚沒有為什麼巨展會是跟亮彩簽約付錢付給超思為什麼"},{"start":13838.131,"end":13841.675,"text":"為什麼你是跟亮采簽約他也是付錢給超市這沒辦法問嗎我告訴你我們不會聽信任的一方的齁"},{"start":13858.453,"end":13863.258,"text":"公部門講話對話講話要附我們的事實的證據那證據的部分要請檢調單位去處理我請問一下農業部有沒有去問區長會為什麼是這樣的採訪對我來講我覺得他們是商業關係商業關係是司法人的關係應該請檢調單位去進行所以農業部沒有問的意思嘛對連查都沒有查嘛你連"},{"start":13876.852,"end":13885.8,"text":"到現在為止大家外界關心的操司跟量產關係你都還沒有去釐清是這個意思嗎?是推給司法嗎?剛剛我前面在跟你講的是說農業部和續產會的關係你要督導續產會在採購要符合一定的規定嘛"},{"start":13898.812,"end":13924.202,"text":"基本上你跟A廠商簽約卻付款給B廠商這非常罕見的結果你正在一個督導的責任你連問說為什麼他是這樣的行為你都說那跟你沒關係推給司法那你農業部到底要怎麼去怎麼去管理續產會的單位我覺得委員你要把事情分清楚我剛才說的司法人的關係是量財跟超市之間的違法的我們行政局沒辦法處理所以請移行檢調當然可以處理嘛因為你是管理單位嘛"},{"start":13924.682,"end":13946.28,"text":"你是督導單位嘛你要不要做而已嘛我真不相信農業部每年補助那麼多錢給續產會你連問這個你都不能問我真的不相信啦我真的不相信啦我問不出答案沒有關係但所有人都看得出來農業部對續產會就是這個態度嘛連大家這麼關心的超市跟量產的關係你都說那是司法關係跟我們沒有關係"},{"start":13946.8,"end":13970.998,"text":"來,謝謝"},{"start":13972.116,"end":13994.734,"text":"接下來我們請蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員我們請徐欣宇委員 徐欣宇 徐欣宇委員我們請陳冠廷委員 陳冠廷 陳冠廷委員我們最後請邱志維委員 請做選擇今天發言時間是4加6還是4加6還是4加8"},{"start":14001.021,"end":14025.678,"text":"我都很按照時間順序時間到我就會很準時,因為怕會影響到下一個同仁的生意這個時間到一直不下來,一直問我在台下我不是沒到,我台下已經到了這個國會應該增加一個霸凌這個同僚罪霸凌國會議員罪"},{"start":14028.633,"end":14037.737,"text":"請做宣達來,先請這個農業部陳部長我們再請陳部長部長,我聽到整部、整套詞有六個問題但問題趕快處理好,脫離這個戰場,農業部變成雞蛋部"},{"start":14055.656,"end":14069.225,"text":"我希望能夠更快的釐清如果有不對就改進 如果他們有不實的指控 有不實的質詢 你們當然要反駁 不實的證據 不實的論述 你們就會強烈的反駁 對不對所以你要了解為什麼會一直循環這個問題 就是你是不是預測的機制有問題"},{"start":14081.038,"end":14106.941,"text":"看一下那個過去10年,過去10年那個但不是缺就是剩,缺剩缺剩缺剩這一次循環嘛,就在你這個預測生產預測機制有沒有可能要優化一點,如果你的生產預測機制不好不健全,那你預測就會失準,就會變成產銷失調嘛,供應跟需求供應跟需求永遠對不上,"},{"start":14108.513,"end":14114.349,"text":"所以你這個生產預設機制是不是能夠過去的經驗就用大數據你現在不是有你的AI嗎?"},{"start":14115.711,"end":14138.446,"text":"你用這個去預測你該怎麼樣去處理,不要每次這個產銷失調的時候就去補助。不是補助進口,就是補助淘汰這個寡產蛋機。一直在循環。所以問題是你還數課程之後,到底問題出在哪裡?你們可以用AI、用人工智慧去協助優化你們的生產預測機制。"},{"start":14139.966,"end":14145.21,"text":"那避免這個預測機制失衡嗎?博麟你也看完了嗎?"},{"start":14170.009,"end":14172.769,"text":"對我們會這樣子然後這次最主要是消費端的那個拉力需求力拉不起來啦"},{"start":14199.754,"end":14204.337,"text":"今天主題是農業移工政策改善提出精進作為精進作為你必須要有一個時間表精進作為兩個面向增加人力供給第二個"},{"start":14229.181,"end":14242.667,"text":"就是減少減省人力需求攻擊面增加然後呢需求面把它降低對不對是你們進行做那你也有時間表好第一個你們上個禮拜"},{"start":14244.195,"end":14260.329,"text":"跟相關的單位有結論按照這個農業能力需求跟勞動部提案申請增加農糧跟畜牧產業的農業移工緣額來 那個農業部有代表來 那個勞動部 這個什麼時候會執行 這個什麼時候會執行 那個部長 你們"},{"start":14264.994,"end":14293.561,"text":"我們現在是預估就是因為我們現在的一萬兩千人大概預估到年底會大概滿了現在是八千多人那我們已經啟動這個評估八千人現期旅籍你們有這個會議結論你們要跟提案跟勞動部提案嘛對不對什麼時候要提那提出多少元額他們7月開會的時候就因為勞動部有例行的一個會議我們在7月的時候就會提出去所以你這些要訓明清楚然後讓讓所有的這個有需求的單位瞭解你們一定有做了這些相關的作為"},{"start":14294.844,"end":14307.695,"text":"另外你們加強改善季節性缺工的問題好你說移工跨區這年農會都不知道嘛移工可以跨區是跨區還是跨市跨縣市都可以"},{"start":14308.968,"end":14310.069,"text":"現在開始在引進移工了"},{"start":14334.392,"end":14353.64,"text":"所以你要把這個做法 讓所有的需求單位了解 可以跨區你有很多政策 雖然是利益良善 但是往往我們這個基層需求單位不了解 我們有哪些有效的政策所以你們要加強宣導 跟這個相關的農事單位或是農會組織 農場加強去宣導"},{"start":14362.816,"end":14387.024,"text":"所以很多政策就是你們缺乏宣傳然後你未來這個你要把這個本來本勞跟外勞的合配比這個上上禮拜我開過記者會農業缺工這是一個存在已久的問題但你拿出來對策沒有辦法有效解決嘛如果有效解決就不會一直有缺工嘛對不對 這代表你們政策失靈啊"},{"start":14388.717,"end":14409.316,"text":"所以你現在未來要把你這個10天以下事業單位合位比跟這個一般農民團體相同這部分什麼時候上路?我們也是大概在7月的會議的時候我們一併會提出來所以這個就是要趕快建機旅機然後你說減省人力需求每一鄉鎮都要有農機Uber"},{"start":14410.12,"end":14429.519,"text":"什麼什麼上路我們大概現在開始已經在推動了齁那我們預計齁我們現在大概4年之內會全部的一鄉鎮一Uber但是兩年一鄉鎮一Uber對就是重大的產業區重大的重要的產區裡面一鄉鎮是一Uber我以為你這個連台北市信義區都要重要的農業生產區才有啦所以你要把這個"},{"start":14431.581,"end":14450.04,"text":"你不是每鄉鎮都成立,你應該是這個農業縣主要的,不是農業縣所有的鄉鎮都需要,對不對?你要把這些區域把它列明出來,包括高雄市、台南市、屏東縣有哪些鄉鎮有這個所謂的農機Wolver"},{"start":14453.137,"end":14453.257,"text":"了解"},{"start":14464.743,"end":14485.864,"text":"我講我們這個政策才在上個月沒有應該是兩三個禮拜前確認然後現在正在去規劃每一區的政府區然後現在已經有15團的所以我們會去針對重要的產區去做規劃大力道有政策要有效率而且要有效果雙效合一人民才有感"},{"start":14487.306,"end":14508.708,"text":"現在AI的產業會影響到農業相關系統的招生狀況嗎?比如說人文相關系統受到影響對不對?大家都往AI相關的產業去就學大學的招生都是往AI會不會影響到農業相關系統的招生"},{"start":14509.788,"end":14531.347,"text":"我想會有一些影響 今年狀況你們有沒有去了解 我們有曾經跟相關的大學的老師去討論那相關的就是AI的部分可能是 你們是預測未來10年我們農業相關系所的招生的下降的比率 人數的比率這個都要"},{"start":14532.674,"end":14546.935,"text":"對阿你要有10年期的計劃按照這些變化裡面有哪些對策最後再10秒鐘齁我前天去看這個永安永安這個永信漁港要永安去永信漁港那個我想張書文也在齁"},{"start":14548.637,"end":14569.419,"text":"這個永興漁港在永安區它的這個過去的這個漁港設施當然是老舊了那現在海洋局提出了這個計畫我也當面去看這個對漁民對漁業都有很大的幫助我希望說張署長跟這個陳部長能夠全力支持對我們確定會支持這三千萬你來倒數你勒"},{"start":14571.786,"end":14571.806,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":14603.035,"end":14603.681,"text":"那接下來"},{"start":14607.947,"end":14633.158,"text":"我們登記發言的委員除了不在場外其餘都已經發言完畢,詢答結束我們有陳庭輝委員以及陳冠廷委員所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報那書面質詢以及位置答覆的部分請於一周之內以書面答覆並複製本會那本日議程處理完畢謝謝大家散會我們休息兩分鐘就繼續協商"},{"start":14637.356,"end":14637.556,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"16042","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16042","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68553741711f1205b952042dc10dca82677627684c85f64cd7bce30cfa2b1750a105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告併案審查委員林德福等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等16人、委員馬文君等25人、委員黃建賓等20人、委員盧縣一等17人、委員鄭正鈐等17人、委員王育敏等17人、委員張嘉郡等30人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人分別擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。（第一案預計9：00---10：30）二、社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告併案審查委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」、委員張嘉郡等20人、國民黨黨團、委員黃健豪等17人、委員王育敏等19人分別擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。（第二案預計10：30---12：00））","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-27T08:31:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:50:00+08:00","duration":8338,"影片長度":"02:18:58","委員發言時間":"08:31:02 - 10:50:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2024062547","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1330.6753437500001,"end":1332.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1332.04221875,"end":1332.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1332.0928437500002,"end":1332.1265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1332.1434687500002,"end":1332.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1332.17721875,"end":1332.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1332.2278437500001,"end":1332.2784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1753.4109687500002,"end":1773.6778437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1773.9984687500003,"end":1776.1922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1777.8122187500003,"end":1779.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1780.63034375,"end":1782.0984687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1782.9759687500002,"end":1784.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1785.3384687500002,"end":1790.1140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1790.92409375,"end":1793.3709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1794.6028437500001,"end":1797.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1798.2647187500002,"end":1801.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1801.7578437500001,"end":1804.4578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1805.38596875,"end":1808.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1808.9972187500002,"end":1813.7728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1814.7009687500001,"end":1815.3084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1815.7640937500003,"end":1818.1265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1818.8015937500002,"end":1820.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1821.1134687500003,"end":1828.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1828.8084687500002,"end":1839.9122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1843.9790937500002,"end":1845.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1845.8015937500002,"end":1870.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1870.8947187500003,"end":1887.1453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1887.5840937500002,"end":1893.3890937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1893.4903437500002,"end":1924.0678437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1925.35034375,"end":1929.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1930.3959687500003,"end":1933.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1933.9565937500001,"end":1933.9734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1934.5472187500002,"end":1941.1790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1941.53346875,"end":1945.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1945.6172187500001,"end":1946.2753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1947.00096875,"end":1947.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1948.4690937500002,"end":1950.4940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1950.9159687500003,"end":1953.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1953.7847187500001,"end":1955.7084687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1956.3328437500002,"end":1960.6865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1961.2772187500002,"end":1963.9265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1964.5509687500003,"end":1970.0522187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1970.7440937500003,"end":1978.4222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1978.8103437500001,"end":1980.5315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1980.9197187500001,"end":1984.4634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1985.1553437500002,"end":1986.1847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1986.7753437500003,"end":1998.9422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1999.0940937500002,"end":2000.2078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2000.8997187500001,"end":2006.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2007.2278437500001,"end":2008.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2009.2865937500003,"end":2019.1922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2019.8165937500003,"end":2023.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2024.1872187500003,"end":2031.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2032.4559687500002,"end":2035.3753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2036.6240937500002,"end":2055.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2056.23284375,"end":2082.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2083.72221875,"end":2084.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2084.02596875,"end":2085.9834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2085.9834687500006,"end":2086.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2086.01721875,"end":2086.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2088.04221875,"end":2121.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2122.65284375,"end":2165.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2165.86971875,"end":2215.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2215.76909375,"end":2222.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2222.73846875,"end":2238.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2238.5672187500004,"end":2246.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2248.13534375,"end":2249.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2250.64971875,"end":2277.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2278.12221875,"end":2312.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2313.15471875,"end":2319.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2319.85409375,"end":2327.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2327.97096875,"end":2382.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2382.9834687500006,"end":2414.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2414.40471875,"end":2419.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2419.9734687500004,"end":2454.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2455.91721875,"end":2474.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2475.0028437500005,"end":2479.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2480.1328437500006,"end":2480.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2481.46596875,"end":2510.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2512.51596875,"end":2513.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2513.96721875,"end":2514.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2515.95846875,"end":2520.8690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2524.8347187500003,"end":2612.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2613.1922187500004,"end":2623.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2624.4647187500004,"end":2626.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2626.8103437500004,"end":2627.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2629.79721875,"end":2631.2315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2631.43409375,"end":2656.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2656.5440937500007,"end":2657.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2657.7253437500003,"end":2659.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2659.93596875,"end":2665.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2666.0615937500006,"end":2668.9978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2669.94284375,"end":2671.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2671.93409375,"end":2678.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2679.6122187500005,"end":2680.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2681.51909375,"end":2682.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2684.03346875,"end":2690.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2690.96909375,"end":2691.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2691.1209687500004,"end":2698.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2699.1365937500004,"end":2702.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2702.5622187500003,"end":2711.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2712.2315937500007,"end":2731.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2732.00909375,"end":2735.4347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2735.70471875,"end":2752.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2752.8328437500004,"end":2754.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2754.8409687500007,"end":2765.1853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2765.75909375,"end":2770.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2770.4503437500007,"end":2772.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2772.4753437500003,"end":2778.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2779.61346875,"end":2781.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2782.34721875,"end":2786.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2788.65846875,"end":2795.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2795.35784375,"end":2806.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2807.0184687500005,"end":2812.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2813.3972187500003,"end":2816.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2817.0084687500002,"end":2827.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2828.09534375,"end":2833.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2834.65971875,"end":2843.8565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2844.2109687500006,"end":2888.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2889.0309687500003,"end":2892.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2892.9459687500002,"end":2900.3034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2900.77596875,"end":2908.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2908.5215937500006,"end":2912.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2912.3015937500004,"end":2925.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2925.7340937500003,"end":2941.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2941.56284375,"end":2943.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2946.64221875,"end":2997.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2997.2840937500005,"end":2997.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2997.3347187500003,"end":2999.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2999.24159375,"end":3001.7390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3001.6378437500007,"end":3043.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3043.72409375,"end":3044.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3044.63534375,"end":3047.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3048.06096875,"end":3051.4528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3052.0097187500005,"end":3060.0928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3060.78471875,"end":3063.1472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3063.8053437500002,"end":3092.6953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3093.03284375,"end":3139.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3139.79346875,"end":3145.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3145.86846875,"end":3185.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3186.1490937500002,"end":3196.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3197.2022187500006,"end":3200.4422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3201.1003437500003,"end":3203.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3204.32346875,"end":3205.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3206.2472187500007,"end":3223.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3223.6959687500002,"end":3244.0978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3244.9753437500003,"end":3249.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3250.91534375,"end":3266.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3267.4697187500005,"end":3281.7628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3282.1172187500006,"end":3284.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3285.5934687500003,"end":3286.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3287.02784375,"end":3291.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3292.1072187500004,"end":3315.8165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3316.1540937500004,"end":3318.9215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3319.6472187500003,"end":3335.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3335.77971875,"end":3336.9609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3339.0197187500007,"end":3386.7253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3387.1472187500003,"end":3391.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3392.3278437500003,"end":3401.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3402.31784375,"end":3404.5284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3405.55784375,"end":3406.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3406.8740937500006,"end":3410.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3410.5528437500006,"end":3413.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3414.2315937500007,"end":3415.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3415.32846875,"end":3418.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3419.42909375,"end":3423.8165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3424.74471875,"end":3441.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3441.67034375,"end":3444.4884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3445.16346875,"end":3445.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3446.42909375,"end":3452.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3452.68971875,"end":3454.4615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3454.7822187500005,"end":3455.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3455.35596875,"end":3456.8240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3457.11096875,"end":3458.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3459.08534375,"end":3467.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3468.29909375,"end":3477.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3477.6647187500002,"end":3483.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3484.2965937500003,"end":3498.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3499.2478437500004,"end":3505.9978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3506.5547187500006,"end":3514.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3514.5703437500006,"end":3526.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3527.26034375,"end":3536.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3536.4403437500005,"end":3543.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3543.6122187500005,"end":3545.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3545.94096875,"end":3547.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3547.8478437500007,"end":3550.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3551.3747187500003,"end":3551.7628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3551.8809687500006,"end":3555.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3555.5934687500003,"end":3559.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3559.96409375,"end":3560.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3561.3309687500005,"end":3564.5878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3564.68909375,"end":3565.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3566.1065937500007,"end":3574.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3575.1347187500005,"end":3594.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3595.46909375,"end":3616.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3617.1365937500004,"end":3618.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3618.6553437500006,"end":3628.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3628.7634687500004,"end":3632.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3632.2059687500005,"end":3641.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3642.90471875,"end":3644.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3643.02284375,"end":3643.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3644.6934687500006,"end":3646.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3647.8828437500006,"end":3654.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3654.88596875,"end":3658.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3658.4803437500004,"end":3660.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3661.0115937500004,"end":3662.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3664.3865937500004,"end":3666.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3667.2215937500005,"end":3671.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3671.96346875,"end":3675.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3676.0134687500004,"end":3686.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3687.92721875,"end":3689.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3689.3447187500005,"end":3690.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3690.62721875,"end":3694.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3695.14971875,"end":3697.0565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3697.27596875,"end":3700.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3701.5284687500007,"end":3702.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3703.0134687500004,"end":3704.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3704.49846875,"end":3705.6628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3707.2490937500006,"end":3707.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3708.5653437500005,"end":3709.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3709.5272187500004,"end":3711.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3711.36659375,"end":3716.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3716.96909375,"end":3719.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3719.7197187500005,"end":3722.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3722.3522187500002,"end":3725.4572187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3725.84534375,"end":3729.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3730.41846875,"end":3741.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3741.92721875,"end":3753.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3754.33034375,"end":3762.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3762.90284375,"end":3769.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3770.26034375,"end":3772.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3773.31471875,"end":3785.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3786.40971875,"end":3787.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3787.91159375,"end":3788.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3789.6328437500006,"end":3801.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3801.9178437500004,"end":3804.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3805.0059687500006,"end":3812.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3812.44784375,"end":3812.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3816.05909375,"end":3818.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3819.3328437500004,"end":3819.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3819.9909687500003,"end":3820.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3820.0078437500006,"end":3820.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3822.7247187500006,"end":3822.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3822.92721875,"end":3822.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3822.99471875,"end":3827.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3827.44971875,"end":3836.5115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3836.7647187500006,"end":3839.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3840.27471875,"end":3843.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3844.08846875,"end":3885.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3885.4997187500003,"end":3903.0665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3903.2859687500004,"end":4077.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4077.92534375,"end":4109.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4109.8865937499995,"end":4222.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4222.18971875,"end":4255.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4255.70346875,"end":4255.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4256.07471875,"end":4257.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4258.50471875,"end":4260.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4260.360968749999,"end":4269.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4270.13159375,"end":4271.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4271.937218749999,"end":4273.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4273.9959687499995,"end":4275.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4275.86909375,"end":4278.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4280.003468749999,"end":4282.956593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4283.49659375,"end":4284.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4285.09971875,"end":4339.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4341.02346875,"end":4343.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4343.50409375,"end":4345.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4346.2040937500005,"end":4351.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4351.75596875,"end":4354.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4355.012843750001,"end":4359.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4359.9403437500005,"end":4363.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4363.88909375,"end":4390.112843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4390.821593750001,"end":4391.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4392.49221875,"end":4397.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4397.95971875,"end":4401.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4401.638468749999,"end":4406.329718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4406.68409375,"end":4408.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4409.31659375,"end":4413.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4413.839093750001,"end":4424.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4424.74034375,"end":4452.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4452.39846875,"end":4460.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4464.548468749999,"end":4466.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4467.029093749999,"end":4467.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4467.16409375,"end":4490.940968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4491.177218750001,"end":4494.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4494.58596875,"end":4495.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4495.5478437500005,"end":4571.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4571.519093749999,"end":4598.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4598.53596875,"end":4660.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4660.38284375,"end":4661.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4662.01971875,"end":4667.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4667.622218750001,"end":4695.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4695.600968750001,"end":4705.860968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4705.8778437500005,"end":4705.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4706.147843750001,"end":4706.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4707.362843750001,"end":4708.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4707.6834687499995,"end":4707.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4707.734093749999,"end":4708.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4708.03784375,"end":4708.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4708.1053437499995,"end":4708.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4708.4090937500005,"end":4708.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4708.442843750001,"end":4708.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4709.235968749999,"end":4712.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4712.93159375,"end":4720.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4721.45346875,"end":4722.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4724.102843750001,"end":4729.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4729.28346875,"end":4730.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4731.24096875,"end":4731.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4732.017218749999,"end":4735.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4735.74659375,"end":4738.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4738.395968750001,"end":4754.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4754.849093750001,"end":4756.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4757.009093750001,"end":4758.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4758.882218750001,"end":4760.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4760.45159375,"end":4761.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4761.1434687500005,"end":4764.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4765.632218750001,"end":4767.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4767.67409375,"end":4767.876593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4768.669718749999,"end":4777.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4778.423468749999,"end":4779.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4779.75659375,"end":4783.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4784.194718750001,"end":4804.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4805.423468749999,"end":4815.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4815.548468749999,"end":4817.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4817.894093750001,"end":4820.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4821.01596875,"end":4823.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4824.20534375,"end":4834.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4835.0897187499995,"end":4841.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4841.63721875,"end":4853.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4853.6522187499995,"end":4880.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4881.7997187500005,"end":4898.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4898.657843749999,"end":4905.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4906.08284375,"end":4914.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4914.75659375,"end":4921.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4922.55284375,"end":4928.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4928.03721875,"end":4998.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4998.89534375,"end":5018.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5018.77409375,"end":5020.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5024.46096875,"end":5041.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5042.02784375,"end":5078.376593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5078.69721875,"end":5106.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5106.2372187500005,"end":5110.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5111.08034375,"end":5111.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5111.40096875,"end":5154.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5155.09034375,"end":5177.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5156.11971875,"end":5156.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5156.153468750001,"end":5156.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5156.17034375,"end":5156.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5178.124718749999,"end":5182.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5183.423468749999,"end":5191.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5192.45159375,"end":5198.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5198.560343749999,"end":5205.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5203.302218750001,"end":5203.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5205.61409375,"end":5205.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5208.24659375,"end":5211.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5211.4022187499995,"end":5211.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5211.452843749999,"end":5214.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5214.794093750001,"end":5218.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5220.19409375,"end":5226.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5228.54721875,"end":5235.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5233.69409375,"end":5234.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5235.38159375,"end":5239.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5239.83659375,"end":5239.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5239.85346875,"end":5240.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5239.88721875,"end":5244.595343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5244.747218750001,"end":5245.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5246.046593749999,"end":5255.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5255.614718750001,"end":5260.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5260.27221875,"end":5261.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5261.2509687500005,"end":5268.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5261.335343750001,"end":5261.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5269.114718750001,"end":5282.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5282.96909375,"end":5285.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5284.4540937500005,"end":5286.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5285.55096875,"end":5285.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5286.15846875,"end":5286.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5286.19221875,"end":5287.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5287.74471875,"end":5287.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5287.812218749999,"end":5287.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5287.94721875,"end":5288.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5288.335343750001,"end":5288.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5288.36909375,"end":5295.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5295.57471875,"end":5322.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5299.5740937499995,"end":5300.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5310.05346875,"end":5311.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5312.50034375,"end":5312.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5312.6522187499995,"end":5313.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5313.040343750001,"end":5313.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5315.6053437499995,"end":5316.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5322.96284375,"end":5345.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5346.43596875,"end":5355.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5355.53159375,"end":5386.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5387.155343750001,"end":5388.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5388.825968749999,"end":5388.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5388.8934687500005,"end":5391.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5391.036593750001,"end":5391.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5391.30659375,"end":5402.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5391.458468750001,"end":5391.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5391.49221875,"end":5392.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5402.64659375,"end":5410.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5410.88159375,"end":5413.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5414.2059687500005,"end":5417.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5419.60596875,"end":5421.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5421.61409375,"end":5423.048468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5424.077843749999,"end":5552.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5553.25596875,"end":5569.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5575.159718750001,"end":5576.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5577.4715937500005,"end":5597.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5598.05909375,"end":5620.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5624.35034375,"end":5635.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5636.382218750001,"end":5674.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5674.958468750001,"end":5788.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5789.30346875,"end":5789.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5789.32034375,"end":5798.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5798.16284375,"end":5798.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5800.00221875,"end":5810.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5811.02159375,"end":5840.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5839.405343750001,"end":5839.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5841.042218750001,"end":5863.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6177.782843750001,"end":6194.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6194.50596875,"end":6200.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6201.23909375,"end":6203.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6204.63096875,"end":6206.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6207.82034375,"end":6209.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6210.739718750001,"end":6213.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6214.064093750001,"end":6215.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6215.987843750001,"end":6217.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6219.734093749999,"end":6224.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6225.741593750001,"end":6229.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6230.58471875,"end":6233.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6234.14534375,"end":6238.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6238.904093749999,"end":6239.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6240.321593750001,"end":6241.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6241.51971875,"end":6244.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6246.177218750001,"end":6249.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6250.51409375,"end":6254.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6255.0028437500005,"end":6258.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6259.390343749999,"end":6262.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6263.609093749999,"end":6266.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6266.798468750001,"end":6269.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6271.32096875,"end":6276.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6276.467843750001,"end":6280.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6280.635968750001,"end":6282.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6288.48284375,"end":6293.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6294.794093750001,"end":6297.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6299.58659375,"end":6300.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6301.071593750001,"end":6305.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6308.2772187499995,"end":6308.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6309.137843750001,"end":6310.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6311.095343750001,"end":6313.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6313.28909375,"end":6366.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6367.305968750001,"end":6436.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6436.544093750001,"end":6490.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6490.47659375,"end":6528.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6529.55909375,"end":6538.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6539.65034375,"end":6541.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6542.08034375,"end":6556.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6556.89659375,"end":6603.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6602.999093750001,"end":6609.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6610.47471875,"end":6616.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6617.96721875,"end":6617.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6617.984093749999,"end":6623.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6625.37534375,"end":6627.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6627.079718750001,"end":6628.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6628.024718750001,"end":6629.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6629.30721875,"end":6629.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6629.35784375,"end":6633.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6634.116593750001,"end":6639.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6639.24659375,"end":6640.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6641.1365937499995,"end":6644.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6645.06846875,"end":6648.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6645.979718750001,"end":6647.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6648.20721875,"end":6648.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6654.265343749999,"end":6654.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6654.9403437500005,"end":6657.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6656.847218750001,"end":6661.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6660.795968750001,"end":6663.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6663.512843750001,"end":6665.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6666.0947187500005,"end":6713.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6714.930968750001,"end":6721.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6720.66846875,"end":6721.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6721.444718750001,"end":6721.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6722.187218749999,"end":6832.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6833.03909375,"end":6834.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6834.54096875,"end":6841.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6842.69159375,"end":6861.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6866.55284375,"end":6867.548468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6867.970343750001,"end":6889.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6890.194718750001,"end":6892.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6892.911593750001,"end":6929.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6930.39096875,"end":6960.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6961.019093750001,"end":6965.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6966.368468750001,"end":6994.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6995.17409375,"end":6995.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6996.10221875,"end":7004.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7004.843468750001,"end":7036.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7037.243468750001,"end":7044.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7044.58409375,"end":7075.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7075.51596875,"end":7075.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7075.583468750001,"end":7075.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7075.60034375,"end":7076.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7076.96721875,"end":7077.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7080.747218750001,"end":7082.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7083.042218750001,"end":7086.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7086.788468750001,"end":7089.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7090.062218750001,"end":7092.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7094.247218750001,"end":7103.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7096.575968749999,"end":7097.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7105.57034375,"end":7109.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7110.278468750001,"end":7112.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7113.43409375,"end":7113.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7114.446593750001,"end":7115.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7115.93159375,"end":7116.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7116.96096875,"end":7118.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7119.880343750001,"end":7126.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7127.30534375,"end":7135.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7136.13096875,"end":7137.548468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7136.50221875,"end":7137.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7137.548468750001,"end":7139.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7138.27409375,"end":7146.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7146.981593750001,"end":7150.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7151.014718750001,"end":7160.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7160.73471875,"end":7161.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7161.7978437500005,"end":7172.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7172.7665937500005,"end":7175.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7177.2215937500005,"end":7177.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7178.74034375,"end":7180.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7181.06909375,"end":7181.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7181.895968750001,"end":7184.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7184.88284375,"end":7185.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7186.09784375,"end":7186.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7187.430968750001,"end":7190.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7190.890343750001,"end":7192.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7192.89846875,"end":7193.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7194.6365937499995,"end":7206.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7206.56721875,"end":7211.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7212.591593749999,"end":7214.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7214.565968750001,"end":7215.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7216.10159375,"end":7220.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7221.029093749999,"end":7225.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7226.192843750001,"end":7227.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7229.854718750001,"end":7233.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7234.2928437499995,"end":7234.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7235.30534375,"end":7235.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7236.503468750001,"end":7239.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7240.0809687500005,"end":7243.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7243.97909375,"end":7248.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7249.075343750001,"end":7253.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7253.88471875,"end":7256.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7256.31471875,"end":7256.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7257.47909375,"end":7258.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7259.436593750001,"end":7260.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7261.32659375,"end":7264.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7267.772843750001,"end":7268.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7271.95784375,"end":7274.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7275.6365937499995,"end":7280.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7281.5428437499995,"end":7281.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7282.75784375,"end":7295.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7296.24096875,"end":7311.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7311.884093750001,"end":7316.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7316.82846875,"end":7316.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7317.2840937500005,"end":7319.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7320.642218750001,"end":7346.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7346.190968750001,"end":7357.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7359.2353437500005,"end":7385.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7386.269093750001,"end":7387.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7388.22659375,"end":7390.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7390.94346875,"end":7392.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7393.74471875,"end":7395.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7395.76971875,"end":7404.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7405.52346875,"end":7413.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7414.18034375,"end":7415.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7415.96909375,"end":7424.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7425.16596875,"end":7425.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7426.93784375,"end":7430.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7432.00034375,"end":7437.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7437.58596875,"end":7440.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7442.243468750001,"end":7443.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7444.33596875,"end":7461.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7462.071593750001,"end":7462.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7462.88159375,"end":7466.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7466.93159375,"end":7479.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7479.53721875,"end":7486.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7482.6590937500005,"end":7483.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7487.569718750001,"end":7489.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7489.679093750001,"end":7549.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7549.61909375,"end":7554.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7554.749093750001,"end":7560.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7560.94221875,"end":7563.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7563.70971875,"end":7575.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7575.67409375,"end":7577.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7577.88471875,"end":7583.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7583.95971875,"end":7584.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7585.47846875,"end":7591.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7592.02596875,"end":7593.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7593.595343750001,"end":7595.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7595.940968750001,"end":7648.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7649.02971875,"end":7654.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7655.08784375,"end":7672.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7672.65471875,"end":7683.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7683.80909375,"end":7719.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7720.124093750001,"end":7732.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7732.79721875,"end":7739.142218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7740.8465937500005,"end":7741.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7744.66034375,"end":7754.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7754.97096875,"end":7764.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7765.12971875,"end":7765.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7766.108468750001,"end":7767.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7767.62721875,"end":7773.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7773.9384687500005,"end":7775.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7775.92971875,"end":7786.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7788.231593750001,"end":7796.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7796.905343750001,"end":7798.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7799.30159375,"end":7802.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7802.50784375,"end":7807.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7807.55346875,"end":7808.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7809.02159375,"end":7819.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7820.1590937500005,"end":7835.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7835.73471875,"end":7844.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7844.577218750001,"end":7848.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7849.4540937500005,"end":7875.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7876.639718750001,"end":7877.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7877.77034375,"end":7878.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7878.512843750001,"end":7898.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7899.319718750001,"end":7905.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7905.76596875,"end":7941.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7944.139718750001,"end":7945.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7946.282843750001,"end":7951.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7951.530968750001,"end":7952.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7955.17596875,"end":8050.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8050.31721875,"end":8057.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8058.29909375,"end":8065.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8065.92659375,"end":8076.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8076.456593750001,"end":8077.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8078.194718750001,"end":8107.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8105.717843750001,"end":8108.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8112.56909375,"end":8182.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8183.528468750001,"end":8208.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8209.465343750002,"end":8218.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8218.08846875,"end":8227.26846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1331.966,"end":1332.006,"text":"併案審查"},{"start":1753.424,"end":1775.716,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會那今天有兩個法案的協商那第一案我們要討論的是就業服務法第46條條文修正草案的黨團協商那總共有10案那我們現在先介紹在場出席的委員跟官員我們歡迎蘇清泉委員陳昭之委員盧縣一委員"},{"start":1783.035,"end":1807.287,"text":"王振旭委員我們介紹今天出席的官員勞動部許傳勝政務司長勞動力發展署蔡孟良署長衛福部長期照顧司祝建方司長護理及健康照護司蔡妍妍副司長社會及家庭署游益君組長國民健康署謝佩君檢任記者"},{"start":1809.042,"end":1819.929,"text":"原住民族社會福利處董敬芬副處長那個謝佩君解任基準可以坐到前面來然後前面還那麼多空位"},{"start":1821.158,"end":1839.019,"text":"好 那我們現在就開始協商那因為這個案子坦白講在委員會也已經討論很久了那今天的協商會議就是大家再表示一下意見了那我們現在是不是有沒有委員要先發言"},{"start":1844.025,"end":1870.237,"text":"好 我們請王正旭委員是好 謝謝主席各位委員 各位官員大家早有關於這個救護法的部分如果說在80歲以上就全部都免任何的條件相對來講還是對於在這個需求上面會造成一些壓制那我們也知道其實蠻多80歲以上的長者他的各方面是可以"},{"start":1870.957,"end":1895.436,"text":"有自己照顧的能力之下盡量能照顧自己還是對於整個社會來講是好的那當然我們會考量說在80歲以上以前我們是認為85歲以上容易在短時間裡面造成一些生活上的依賴性那如果家庭裡面是屬於雙薪的這些年輕人要照顧他們會有一些壓力不過考量到這些情形之下"},{"start":1896.397,"end":1923.752,"text":"另外一個狀況就是能不能把這個80歲以上的這些長者如果他有輕度依賴的情形之下我們讓他在申請這個八字量表的過程當中可以有得到比較好的一個寬待的可能性也不會造成這個人力上的壓擊那也不會讓這個家庭會擔心說會因為雙性家庭無法照顧長者配換長者的這些條件之下造成的影響以上"},{"start":1925.427,"end":1933.4,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來還有沒有其他委員 反而來蘇清泉委員各位同仁還有列席官員"},{"start":1934.662,"end":1960.368,"text":"我想有委員歡樂的就是說80位醫生要80兩票那他就可以80歲到就申請申請那很健康會照的條他要申請這個倒是多慮了啦有人說會照的條還想要請一個外國人來陪在你小的啦在你外國來那些富翁格格的"},{"start":1964.585,"end":1975.467,"text":"也沒有在想啦所以不能說大家都會後悔請那我相信不可能我第一次在看這裡有一個人這裡85歲了,85歲他會走嗎?你講他要請我嗎?他也不愛啊所以這個有時候是我們自己考慮太多"},{"start":1986.83,"end":2006.516,"text":"第二個會排擠嗎?我倒也認為也不會啦所以既然在總統選舉三位候選人都馬上迎合社會的那個一提出來之後就社會上環境非常好就馬上衛務部這邊也改了、論部也改了"},{"start":2007.536,"end":2020.478,"text":"所以這個案子是非常好民眾黨提出的也是一樣所以這個案子既然是大家有共識我想其實是應該的啦所以我覺得我們是贊成這一塊所以這是國民黨這邊的意見 以上好 謝謝那接下來我們請盧縣一委員"},{"start":2037.157,"end":2055.239,"text":"本席是山地原住民立委所以當時在提80歲以上的時候我們山地原住民是70歲以上那為什麼會產生這樣的一個問題出來就是因為當時大家都認為升旗84亮表對長者來說或者是家屬來說都非常的繁瑣"},{"start":2056.32,"end":2084.98,"text":"那真的有需求的人要去找的時候又要請家人請假啦或者是派車啦到你家裡一兩個小時以上距離的醫院去申請最主要是這個環節有問題那如果真的有需要我們用一般的疾病診斷書來替代他的巴斯量表的繁瑣的話我覺得就可以簡化這個申請的流程我的用意是這樣謝謝好接下來我們請陳昭智委員"},{"start":2088.515,"end":2111.622,"text":"謝謝 我剛剛就是幾個委員大家的不同的角度再來做一些普通說明但是我也需要這個勞動部這邊也來幫忙來做一些估計就是剛剛王俊旭委員有提到80歲加輕度依賴等於多加一個條件那那個輕度依賴其實到目前為止以我自己我爸爸99歲去摔跤在家裡用Walker但是在"},{"start":2112.322,"end":2130.769,"text":"看醫院一定要坐輪椅結果他也被認定是輕度依賴而已這樣當然就過關了如果要申請看護那事實上在這個狀況下這個人他其實對我來說他不是輕度依賴因為如果沒有人幫忙他甚至連取食、煮食的能力都沒有就他連生活他一定是活不下去"},{"start":2131.169,"end":2151.802,"text":"就是一定要有孩子或是其他人來幫忙所以那個輕度依賴那個定義真的是有問題的那醫生也不得不醫生是按照那個規範然後叫爸爸一定要站起來給他看走幾步事實上我們都不敢讓他走路因為在家裡都用walk那第二個上次我們提到這一點部長有說有53萬的缺口"},{"start":2154.324,"end":2159.046,"text":"但是這個缺口當然今天要不要立馬實施這個可以討論那53萬缺口是怎麼來的好像我昨天在質詢這個就是職聘啊居土基但是勞動部都不做啊就是說我們沒有競爭力是我們沒有競爭力我們條件不好就是所謂的這個看護沒有不願意來這個如果你源頭永遠不解決你當然永遠是缺工的啊就是有缺口啊"},{"start":2180.113,"end":2196.834,"text":"那這個排擠這個當然要有不能用空談思考好像覺得說會排擠大家都會挑選其實工作也都有這樣就是也有這個大家都會挑工作那這個有沒有一個依據或基礎那另外就是說國家有沒有因為大家都想說80歲有些人還不願意我爸爸80幾歲都不可能說"},{"start":2199.537,"end":2205.823,"text":"併案審查委員林德福等19人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王�"},{"start":2222.899,"end":2239.833,"text":"你們是真的會提出需求但我不知道這個可不可信可是沒有個依據大家在辯論因為兩個方向都有道理啊有人就是有需求啊啊國家可能又擔心說有其他的後遺症啊包括排擠啊包括就是說我們一時也找不到那麼多的人那所以我這個應該不這邊要提出一個很具體的東西讓我們安心的做決定好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":2248.237,"end":2277.399,"text":"請您願意請委員就整體來看因為昨天在談台印的MOU那趙志偉委員也講說我們現在如果像今天要談這個東西就有53萬可是昨天談的也只有我們小規模試做大概1000人進來所以如果移工的來源很充足的話當然提供遠遠不絕的人力可是對高齡者重症者做開放的話當然不需要任何限制可是有時候事實上"},{"start":2280.581,"end":2302.967,"text":"臺灣在有限的資源裡面我們最擔心的還是排擠到最需要的人所以如何做分配可能繼續考量所以80歲以上高齡者如果不經巴士量表直接可以評估這表示80歲以上就是全面開放我們可以評估我們的外用所以就80歲以上全面開放"},{"start":2303.807,"end":2321.984,"text":"反對就全面開放不是說完全不行可是要考慮如果是全面開放因為原因在哪邊因為造成一些很大的問題第一個重症者因為相對難照顧移工選擇去照顧好照顧的亞健康者是理所當然的剛剛蘇清泉委員講說不會"},{"start":2324.006,"end":2345.124,"text":"有錢人也可以請,不是說你說今天不會有人有錢然後我需要有人陪伴我啊,所以我就去請啦你現在反而相對事實上有錢可以拿到資源的人可是沒錢,因為就是會挑工嘛所以重症者將會請不到移工"},{"start":2346.545,"end":2368.09,"text":"請到了大概也留不住所以這前面每一次在針對這個資訊的時候我想也很也有委員提到這一點第二個目前因為家庭看護工因為人數不足薪資待遇隨市場喊價的話那價格就會越喊越高所以COVID-19的時候我們也有朋友事實上"},{"start":2368.67,"end":2378.081,"text":"併案審查委員林德福等19人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員"},{"start":2383.078,"end":2400.869,"text":"需要人照顧的時候找不到找不到人因為這個市場機制的時候在搶人的時候因為所以在需求者大量湧進的時候那個價格一定會一發不可收拾第三個最終就是要衝擊到長照那24小時的陪伴一定比長照好用"},{"start":2401.269,"end":2416.935,"text":"那我就是有錢所以呢我就去請了那相對的經濟弱勢事實上是更難那到了一定年紀都會去請義工那誰來用長照當初長照的用意撥了錢反而我們自己在自費武功"},{"start":2417.855,"end":2437.441,"text":"讓長照事實上失掉功能所以本席認為資格可以放寬可是不是沒有就是說不能沒有限制所以去年10月13號實施的三類的對象適用多元免評估資格包括第一個使用長照服務連續6個月以上就等同65歲以上輕度"},{"start":2442.603,"end":2452.888,"text":"2、輕度失智症3、擴大增加重度呼吸障礙及中度吞嚥困難特定身心障礙者的項目已到14項"},{"start":2455.989,"end":2479.494,"text":"所以比較期待是不是像衛福部已經公佈的版本比各位委員事實上想的放寬的還多所以我第一個就是根本沒有修法的必要所以反而是本席認為這個多元評估的資格對於使用長照服務連續6個月以上要做明確的定義應該限縮在需求等級5到8級在總量你現在"},{"start":2481.514,"end":2509.975,"text":"我們只有76萬的移工然後23萬用在這邊那如果先今天的全部開放衝擊進來53萬本來就已經不夠可能要去考慮所以就是說重度需求到重度需求者才可以適用避免需求等級一到四級的輕度、中度需求者去排擠到最需要的人這個可能要請勞動部進一步說明是不是會變成限縮以上謝謝"},{"start":2512.554,"end":2520.151,"text":"好還有沒有其他委員要發言如果沒有的話好來那個廖瑋祥委員來請"},{"start":2525.044,"end":2551.812,"text":"首先我覺得第一個這個就是有所現在就是有這個需求我們還是要反映民意的需求第二個是剛剛約情委員有提到說會不會會衝擊到長照我這個部分剛剛是想一想我覺得應該是不會才對因為長照是部分負擔那巴斯亮表示這個家庭自己有能力負擔就請所以這樣子可能還甚至還可能會減輕我們長照的這個壓力讓真的需要長照服務的人可以用到"},{"start":2552.557,"end":2567.447,"text":"那我覺得當然剛剛大家在講的最主要是說我們移工有沒有足夠這件事情但我覺得這兩件事情應該分開來看沒有足夠這件事應該是勞動部要去解決的那但是有這個需求就應該要這樣子去為我們人民來這個推動"},{"start":2569.088,"end":2589.606,"text":"那究竟我們希望推動但究竟什麼時間點然後我們勞動部可以真正做到這是第一件事第二件事情就是剛剛一直有在提到說這50幾萬人我也是呼應一下剛剛昭智委員說的這所有的人一定會全部去申請嗎我覺得這也是一個很大的問號"},{"start":2590.467,"end":2612.485,"text":"然後再來說我認為這個部分應該是可以去做一些我們未來在協商的過程中我覺得部會應該還有責任可以再做一些更深入的調查跟研究甚至是民調的部分究竟有多少的比例他們會真的會花錢資費去做這件事情我想這個是可以去研究的因為我們真的有這個需求所以我想"},{"start":2614.126,"end":2622.41,"text":"稱為執政的政府他有這個必要去把這件事情研究清楚然後到時候在協商的時候可以提出更多更具體的數據好謝謝好來我們請蘇青選委員"},{"start":2630.01,"end":2648.491,"text":"第二次發言我們昨天講的印度移工的MOU也通過了印度這邊進來是以製造業為主製造業跟家庭看護是沒有關係的至少目前是不會開放這些進來"},{"start":2649.552,"end":2668.821,"text":"所以印度的那個製造業是我們製造業現在缺工缺得很厲害那第二個就是如果如果去年沒有今年還有去年年底沒有這個總統大選沒有候選人提出來那我們的衛福部跟勞動部八年都沒改選啊八年都等死死啊我們臨床第一線的醫師趕快給我死啊大家都看到這裡寫八十兩票啊大家全都看到鬼煙啊"},{"start":2679.639,"end":2704.985,"text":"我之前吃東西也在瘋瘋的我都很怕瘋了其他醫生連瘋都不要瘋你現在去台大叫台大醫生給你瘋他如果要給你瘋要40年他要拚他就做一招因為太大的壓力而且動不動就移送法辦什麼跟仲介勾結還有醫生被判刑的所以對臨床醫師是很重很重的一個壓力所以第三個"},{"start":2707.406,"end":2730.684,"text":"說開放後的昨天80歲的500千我跟大家報告請外籍看護的我們是拿不到政府任何的獎勵任何的補助都沒有你住在機構安養的長照中心的還有補助有時候有有時候沒有啦要選舉的就補一個月補六千啦不選舉就沒有啦最近好像又要加碼啦"},{"start":2732.105,"end":2751.918,"text":"那在家裡請外籍看護是一毛錢都沒有那你如果請長照ABC的長照這個還有部分負擔重症者是完全不用部分負擔所以這是完全不可能你說吃肉太營養、喝咖啡好笑要請一個外籍看護我跟大家報告最後一個"},{"start":2752.918,"end":2760.089,"text":"老人家最怕就跌倒啦所以我們請了這些看護師 要顧好他們就跌倒了今天他死了 你看還在探車的人沒有到處照顧老人跌倒就差不多要死了啦"},{"start":2765.819,"end":2777.952,"text":"不然就骨折骨折開刀開刀後育兒又賣骨折疏鬆每一個走的路都一樣一個骨折在家裡就臥床臥床就開始感染啊泌尿道等等入床什麼都來了所以他們這樣陳昭志說他爸九十四歲還在開車說我串了一條這就真的奇葩"},{"start":2788.832,"end":2802.823,"text":"所以這個這個大家的顧慮有時候是排擠什麼的這個都是這個這樣要扯扯不清的啦所以我們今天主要就是說八十位以上要開吼我們不用八十兩票這樣很簡單這樣說很好笑的一場我相信很好笑的沒多少啦莫忘世間苦人多啦善者比較多啦我們屏東善者比較多啦以上"},{"start":2814.123,"end":2833.244,"text":"好謝謝蘇清泉委員好來王振旭委員主席我第二次發言齁剛針對這個蘇委員的說明其實我也都很清楚不過因為我照顧是以重症為多啦那很多我們這些重症的病人當他有需要移工的時候真的很容易留不住"},{"start":2834.705,"end":2853.602,"text":"我要說明的意思是說因為這些人他相對照顧起來比較辛苦所以當移工有選擇的時候往往他就會很容易很容易他需要有下一個移工因為他一個移工很快就會離開了所以我們比較擔心的是說如果能夠像剛剛岳勤委員所提到的"},{"start":2854.082,"end":2871.823,"text":"包括三個條件的放寬包括後面如果再一些處理的話基本上就能夠限縮不要說他本身事實上是有一些自己照顧的能力然後他基於可能的需要之下他就開始去聘移工來協助他們家庭"},{"start":2872.564,"end":2897.56,"text":"這個就會造成人力上的排擠所以我們的重點不是在於不開放而是在於如何能夠讓真的需要受到照顧的這一群移工能夠這群的家屬能夠有比較好的人力來協助照顧不然的話到時候假設我們很多的移工移年越來越快這是人性啦這個一定是人性我如果有兩個可以選誰可以選的選我才可能選那種最難照顧的"},{"start":2900.862,"end":2924.786,"text":"我們自己也可以都有這樣的想法何況這些移工到臺灣來他不是替臺灣賣命他只是為了要賺他的一筆費用而已所以他一定會造成選擇我們盡量讓這個選擇的機會達到我們臺灣民眾的需求這是我們希望能夠達到這樣的目的的一些線索讓這樣的人力的使用是可以最符合社會需要以上"},{"start":2925.768,"end":2943.449,"text":"那個我先請一下蔡署長你回應一下剛剛委員一直提到說移工選擇選擇你是不是可以跟大家說明一下就是外籍看護工他是有選擇權嗎第一次的媒合是他自己可以挑個案嗎你可以說明一下你們媒合的過程"},{"start":2947.293,"end":2960.081,"text":"主席各位委員我跟委員報告現在移工他的一個選擇主要出現在幾個階段第一個就是說如果我們現在要聘那聘的話來源一個是從國外一個是從國內來承接這兩個來源這個時候就會發生選擇的問題尤其是國內承接"},{"start":2965.785,"end":2991.375,"text":"其實現在國內承接的看護工比例非常高因為家庭有需要從國外太慢直接從國內來承接那發生這個選擇選其實在目前的轉換承接這個問題確實存在因為移工可以選擇我要去哪一個僱主受聘那這個時候就會產生就是說因為輕症跟重症症他會有一個考量這是主要發生的問題那第二個就是說如果是在聘期當中"},{"start":2992.595,"end":3008.252,"text":"就說聘期當中這個時候是不能任意選擇因為這個契約已經成立這個確實有一個成立第一次從國外進來的是沒有選擇權的嗎國外進來是國外在招募的時候那當然移工跟僱主他們會針對雙方的需求"},{"start":3010.374,"end":3034.221,"text":"這個時候還是會有選擇權問題就是說當如果移工在國外發現有很多臺灣的僱主要去招募其實他也可以去了解這個病人的狀況坦白也會發生只是說在現階段很多看護移工大部分是用國內承接比較快主要是快速問題這個還是都會發生那第二個就是說如果是在聘期當中"},{"start":3035.181,"end":3062.612,"text":"這個時候確實不能任意選擇因為這個就是變成違反契約這個是違反法令但是實務上發生的就是勞資爭議就是說可能移工他覺得想要去一個另外一個雇主啊跟雇主說那不行因為你現在在契約期間雖然法令是不允許但是會有爭議所以現在很多地方都常常要處理這種爭議那最後就變成就是雇主可能有時候覺得這個到最後雙方關係就不和諧"},{"start":3064.012,"end":3092.181,"text":"僱主最後被迫要解約啦他就簽那個字了但是事實上這個對僱主就影響非常大簽了字之後他現在沒有移工來照顧就變成自己要去照顧就那個空裝級就會產生所以坦白講這個跟委員報告因為現在的移工的使用其實跟早期是真的不一樣現在變成移工他有非常強大的自主權因為國內的缺工他的選擇性非常多所以我想跟委員報告這個問題真的是值得大家來重視"},{"start":3093.083,"end":3098.445,"text":"好謝謝署長的說明我要特別請署長講就是說事實上討論這個問題不要太簡化就是說移工他可不可以有選擇權移工為什麼他從照顧的這一個人身上他會不適應他想要選擇下一個僱主如果我們從雙邊人權的角度來考量的話他有沒有這樣的權利他當然有啊為什麼我們要去壓迫一個移工就是他不能有選擇權他一定要"},{"start":3122.715,"end":3151.377,"text":"就是我限定的範圍他一定要做到底我覺得觀念各方面其實已經在改變了而國內我們必須做的是如果我們有一些重症的家庭他其實是很辛苦的很難照顧的是我們自己的長照體系我們自己應該要去思考無論是從機構是到宅各方面這應該是我們政府的責任吧怎麼會變成是外籍看護工的責任呢"},{"start":3152.117,"end":3165.144,"text":"所以如果有這類型的重症我個人認為不要把所有責任都放到移工身上而且去強迫他他一定要照顧重症這有道理嗎從人權的角度是沒有道理為什麼他不能有選擇權當然可以"},{"start":3167.225,"end":3184.404,"text":"有工作選擇權的時候我們才能說我們是人權國家吧所以討論這個議題我認為如果國內還有一些做不到的地方這不是移工的責任吧這是政府的責任這是我們長照體系的責任家裡面有重症難以照顧移工會逃跑"},{"start":3186.375,"end":3203.502,"text":"難道我們的政府、我們的長照體系不該擔負起該負的責任嗎?把這些所有的問題想要靠外籍的看護工來解決這個是不正確的吧?剛剛特別提到我們台灣的長照體系是雙軌本來政府就在扛起所有的責任坦白講是這樣子"},{"start":3206.291,"end":3222.645,"text":"那其次才是這個商業體系外籍看護工外籍看護工它是一個補充的體系所以如果說開放外籍看護工反而讓我們的長照體系會崩壞的話那一開始我們台灣其實就是這兩套體系在運作"},{"start":3223.766,"end":3229.471,"text":"那我們的政府我們應該門心之外我們的長照體系我們撐得起來嗎我們現在的教育服務員人力充足嗎我們現在所有的長照資源夠嗎就是因為不夠所以才開放了這個外籍的看護工來補充嘛那當人民他有需要他想要透過這樣的一個機制超過80歲以上的家庭他有這樣的需求我們是不是不要再為難他們"},{"start":3251.273,"end":3265.9,"text":"這麼老的一個老人家還要載到醫院去然後再去做巴士量表然後再跟醫生產生衝突我們是不是可以更簡正辨明讓他們有一個選擇權今天開放不是說所有的人都會來申請"},{"start":3267.509,"end":3284.396,"text":"也不會有這種事情發生所以不用用那個龐大的數據來好像是說這個政策絕對不可行看看民意之所在今天為什麼總統大選的時候所有的總統候選人這個政策一出來之後大家都喊贊成為什麼"},{"start":3287.059,"end":3310.463,"text":"因為民意贊成啊民意支持啊而今天我們作為國會議員我們當然可以站在民意支持為什麼支持就是現行其實造成了非常多的問題嘛跟衝突嘛我們只是針對80歲以上長者家庭有需要的家庭簡正便民讓他們免去這樣子去醫院奔波再去申請法事量表這個問題有嚴重到會造成我們的長照體系的崩壞嗎"},{"start":3316.485,"end":3334.545,"text":"這個未免也太放大問題了所以這個部分我想我們在委員會其實也討論非常多了那今天是政黨協商那就是大家再各自表達意見那如果沒有共識的話我們就到院會處理好 那這個主幹機關還有沒有其他意見要補充來 次長 請"},{"start":3339.983,"end":3356.703,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員大家好今天因為部長參加院會指定我來參加這個政黨協商那我是提供一些好謝謝我們在資訊上面的一些訊息給各位委員參考當然這是政策決定或說是修法是委員的權限"},{"start":3357.984,"end":3376.656,"text":"那我剛剛說我們幾位委員也有提到我們最擔心是說會有排擠效應就到最後這個真正重度加填或是說有需要的人他因為在這個選擇上面進度的比較容易照顧這些人都會去那裡這當然是剛剛我們那個蔡組長也有提到實務上有可能會發生這種事情"},{"start":3377.396,"end":3391.072,"text":"那我提供第一個訊息就是說臺灣在要這個爭取外籍康護工進駐臺灣的時候現在不是只有我們臺灣自己而已我們要面臨這個國際上的競爭特別是日本跟韓國我想這個資訊一定要跟各位委員報告"},{"start":3392.433,"end":3412.903,"text":"日本前幾年他們也不同意後來因為高齡化實在太嚴重了整個社會支撐不起所以他從去年前年開始就開放了而且他開放的腳步比我們更快他原本設定說你還要有基本的這個護理能力什麼結果整個社會完全等不及所以他一口氣開放"},{"start":3414.425,"end":3423.4,"text":"開放之後他為了要爭取更多的康護進來他甚至同意你只要願意進來做康護工我就給你永久居留權"},{"start":3424.975,"end":3443.693,"text":"我想各位知道日本的這個居留權是很難拿到我們自己很多小朋友什麼去日本打工都要搞到10年才會拿到永久居留證那為了這個照顧老人對他開放開放之後附帶還有給他永久居留權這已經是很大的吸引力第二個日本這個先進國家他是同工同寵"},{"start":3445.294,"end":3467.593,"text":"所以呢你當日本當看護工他的薪水跟日本人是一樣的那依照日本現在平均的薪水日幣大概20萬上下那換算成台幣大概4、5萬是台灣的兩倍他如果這個門再開他現在唯一限制是什麼要基本的日語能力他要求日語是1到5嘛N1到N5他說"},{"start":3468.354,"end":3496.208,"text":"你要到日本當康護的話一年之內你要學會至少N5就是說基本的這個對話要會還不用要求你文字對話會如果他再把這個條件拿掉不用日語就可以去就像我們現在沒有要求他要中文也可以來那這樣子我們真的台灣下一個階段邀請這個康護工會非常的辛苦的啦因為第一個薪資條件不如人家第二個你的那個又沒有這個居留權的這個開放"},{"start":3498.189,"end":3524.288,"text":"所以我剛也非常贊成也同意剛剛主席的這個論述就是說臺灣社會是有這個需要那我們這個時候在開放在去年各黨候選人中等候選人提出勞動部跟衛福部也非常積極的調整那我們目前針對這個所謂照顧有需求的在這個經過跟長照的媒合他長照使用半年以上然後經過這個簡單的評估"},{"start":3527.35,"end":3550.14,"text":"我們現在引進的這個家庭看護工已經有半數以上是依照這個管道進來所以書院剛剛講的所謂的醫生跟這個家屬之間的衝突目前幾乎是沒有的幾乎是沒有因為我很多朋友也是做醫生不然這樣看起來已經是非常的順暢只要是評估上面有需求都會開放所以目前進來的情形是這樣"},{"start":3551.46,"end":3573.979,"text":"那我再補充一個資料再跟各位委員報告也就是說剛剛說委員剛剛特別主席提到會不會衝擊到長照系統我想勞動部一個很重要的立場也是要照顧本國的就業那目前跟著衛福部長照系統來這邊就業工作的照顧服務員大概至少有5萬人上下我以前知道"},{"start":3575.22,"end":3584.893,"text":"那我跟特別委員報告我以前在花東服務的時候有很多的原住民的父女朋友就是透過這個家庭照顧照顧服務員的訓練然後去做這個各個偏遠社區的這個居家服務也好照顧服務也好"},{"start":3592.262,"end":3617.592,"text":"他們平均的薪水大概都3、4萬到如果辛苦一點還可以到5萬而且是就近在他們社區也有可以委員更了解也到7萬像屏東的很多偏遠部落也是這樣子所以他對於很多偏遠部落或是農村社區的婦女朋友這些中高齡的婦女朋友其實是一個很好的工作機會這也是跟我們衛務部整個長照系統的一個結合那如果說"},{"start":3618.852,"end":3645.11,"text":"我只是講我的想法齁如果說這個80歲這樣普遍性一開放之後都不用經過任何的這個檢視之後很可能就衝擊這些人的工作機會了啦因為你請外勞進來之後他們大概在目前的這個造福系統裡面就沒有特別的給他們補助了嘛所以我想是這樣子齁謝謝委員謝謝主席來我們請一下蘇清泉委員我站起來說好了"},{"start":3647.935,"end":3673.783,"text":"台灣現在請外籍看護的有23人23人差不多台灣現在的造福源長照大軍拿到證照差不多10萬人拿到證照之後無人要做長照ABC都要做什麼?要做一對一的看護來北一、長庚、高一、屏東這邊一對一的看護一天可以拿到2600塊"},{"start":3676.075,"end":3705.076,"text":"那如果他去機構安養上班機構安養機構上班一個月薪水差不多3萬到6萬之間但是要值班那再來就是就是去家裡的家裡現在差不多5、6萬人差不多5、6萬人坐那我們這些造屋員都屬於各個不同的基金會啊或者是合作社啊我跟剛剛報告我們造屋員也很會調case"},{"start":3707.27,"end":3725.379,"text":"很會挑,他也會挑比較謙虛的有的非常有愛心的,會去照顧在一些比較多重殘障的他一個月可以拿到很多錢我跟大家報告,去年全年全國拿到最高的是100萬以上的100萬以上,還頒獎,就在我們的基金會"},{"start":3731.002,"end":3752.214,"text":"那這一種的少之又少大部分都是會挑Case所以外勞也會挑Case本國的長照服務員也會挑Case所以不要私交那你說我找人來做家庭看二十三萬這替我們政府減輕多少事情呢那個錢都是家屬自己付的政府連出自己的錢都沒有"},{"start":3754.996,"end":3762.15,"text":"還搞救援安定會搞什麼搞到幾大堆那個我們自己本身的父母親就是錢的所以我們很了解嘛"},{"start":3762.964,"end":3768.448,"text":"那所以這些他要發錢,然後他要自己沒有得到任何補助,這樣他要請,就是他有需要嘛那你沒煩惱說他什麼80個醫生有錢就要請一請,講這個都失焦了啦,失焦我們的長照的照服員ABC的5萬多人,為什麼不到10萬人"},{"start":3786.828,"end":3811.638,"text":"找不到啊沒有人要做啊那偏遠地區的真的很有貢獻像剛剛次長講的在屏東啊在花東那個真的是在騎車騎很遠的所以我們要拍手我們要加獎那在都會區的啊挑case太多了啦我們不要講這個講到這邊就會被罵了然後又失焦了齁所以今天的主題就是這樣那就把這個解決 以上"},{"start":3816.087,"end":3817.69,"text":"好 那政府單位還有要補充嗎好 來 市長"},{"start":3823.336,"end":3850.177,"text":"我想剛剛那個昭緯這邊也特別有提到這個重症者是不是應該是長照體系這邊要負起責任來把他給承擔起來那事實上長照體系這邊目前的規劃整個連續性的照護就是居家、社區跟住宿那其實本來會有這樣場域不同的規劃就是希望需要密集照顧的這樣的一個被照顧者應該最佳的選擇場域是我們的住宿機構"},{"start":3851.278,"end":3876.696,"text":"所以我們近期也一直針對住宿機構一直積極的在佈建因為現行全國大概1600、1700家的機構因為有大宗是當時這個醫老福法設立的這些小型機構所以對於民眾這樣的一個照顧品質其實民眾不是那麼有那麼有那個放心把長輩交到這樣的機構手裡所以刻板印象會覺得說這些機構的照顧品質不好"},{"start":3880.319,"end":3889.743,"text":"所以願意選擇就請一個移工選擇在家裡照顧那這個是因為有時空背景的關係所以現階段我們也希望把我們透過這個獎勵計畫要把這些機構的品質趕快拉起來那這個是我們現階段一直在努力在長照2.0系統在處理在努力那當然"},{"start":3903.849,"end":3921.642,"text":"剛剛也特別提到說照顧服務員到底本國的照顧服務員這個是不是願意投入還是會不會影響引進了這樣的那麼大量的一個外國移工會不會排擠到我們本國的照顧服務員的工作權"},{"start":3922.483,"end":3935.818,"text":"那事實上我們從居家社區因為國人對於輪班的工作不管是哪一種行業大概對於輪班的工作都不是那麼是他的優先選擇所以我們目前在住宿型機構這邊採輪班的確實在招募本國的照服員是比較困難"},{"start":3940.163,"end":3962.488,"text":"那成長雖然有成長成長的幅度比較有限可是在居家跟社區這個部分我們的本國的照顧服務員成長達6倍從106年開始到現在已經成長達6倍那所以目前整個的薪資結構我們也分析到有一些包括長照相關科系也投入那包括有一些護理人員"},{"start":3963.508,"end":3966.089,"text":"他可能也不喜歡在醫院輪班其實他現在也投入到長照體系擔任照顧服務員所以基本上目前推的長照的這個居家服務的政策事實上確實有發生了一些吸引了一些"},{"start":3979.697,"end":3981.278,"text":"教育水準高 專業技能好工作彈性 兼顧家庭 吸引一批中高齡 確實透過90小時低門檻的標準大量湧入"},{"start":4000.191,"end":4024.558,"text":"政務委員分享他有可能單親然後他因為有了這份工作之後改變了他的家庭他能夠有能力買房有能力供應他的孩子能夠讀大學那這些也都是這個非常普遍的一些案例那至於就是說挑工作這個事情我相信在各行各業都會發生可是它不應該是一個常態"},{"start":4026.178,"end":4031.384,"text":"審查委員林德福等19人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇"},{"start":4042.136,"end":4070.04,"text":"整個希望在這個服務體系裡面能夠是能夠對於有需要的地方就一定要永生投入所以我們包括這個困難照顧那包括有伴隨BPSD的我們都額外再有一些加擠然後來吸引我們願意在這個體系裡面願意來承擔這個服務困難照顧的個案那這個部分大概是長照體系一直在努力那我們也會持續朝這個方向那當然"},{"start":4070.6,"end":4080.863,"text":"住宿機構現在其實還有2萬多床的空床大概使用率大概只有八成以上做這樣的補充好 非常謝謝司長的說明所以其實我們國內的體系我們是雙軌並行特別是我們國內自己建構起來的長照體系本來它就是針對這些弱勢這一些重症剛剛司長的說明也特別提到了我們有一個連續性的你可以從社區到"},{"start":4097.668,"end":4099.271,"text":"機構到居家其實他有這個選擇權不是所有重症都非得要採取外籍移工的模式所以我想應該不至於說80歲以上"},{"start":4110.683,"end":4131.413,"text":"開放他免憑巴士量表之後就會造成國內的重症無人照顧別忘了我們還有我們自行的長照體系持續在運作我們的機構其實也都還有空床所以討論這件事情我真的也覺得不用失焦今天是特別針對80歲以上的老人讓他不要舟車勞頓"},{"start":4133.787,"end":4154.434,"text":"讓檢證變明讓他有需求的人不用再去做巴士量表那他如果原本就願意使用我們國內的長照體系的他本來就可以開始使用了但是有一些他可能是需要外籍看護工他需要比較長時期24小時陪伴的這一類型有需求的家庭我們只是開放讓他免去"},{"start":4157.348,"end":4180.719,"text":"在走評估的這一項讓他多了這樣的一個選擇權所以大家所討論的對於所有的重大衝擊我從我個人的意見我也覺得不至於是那麼重大的衝擊因為現行其實我們就已經在運作多增加開放80歲以上他需要去去聘僱外籍看護工的真的就只是讓他們"},{"start":4182,"end":4182.962,"text":"減少了這個行政作業然後讓他們有這樣的一個選擇權我相信這個部分的衝擊評估"},{"start":4193.203,"end":4206.213,"text":"並不會是影響這麼的劇烈那另外一個別忘了就是本來外景看護工這個就是一個補充性的選項我們真正是回到我們的長照體系所以持續強化我們國內的長照體系這個是有必要的就是說讓他服務量能可以持續擴大這個是有必要的那"},{"start":4216.122,"end":4224.572,"text":"併外籍看護工這是商業模式這是家屬自行付費政府完全不介入的一個模式所以我覺得這兩個體系應該是要分開來看這樣子可能會比較客觀一點混為一談那就沒完沒了了"},{"start":4233.542,"end":4239.207,"text":"因為大家剛剛在提到說這個所謂重症的外籍看護工會逃跑的問題這個你不開放80歲以上現在就在發生了不是說開放以後他才會發生那個是他的工作環境的問題我覺得政府也應該去正視我剛剛也在講就是為什麼外籍看護工他不應該有選擇權嗎他一定要被綁在跟重症的照顧"},{"start":4262.011,"end":4278.432,"text":"家屬一定要緊緊的綁在一起嗎?有道理嗎?沒有道理啊剛剛如果次長分享的人家日本、韓國用多大的誘因去吸引這一些外籍看護工為什麼他們可以做到如此這般的程度"},{"start":4280.872,"end":4296.861,"text":"我們還停留在什麼樣的思維所以我覺得國家跟國家之間的確是要比較某種程度會不會我們台灣其實也有點落後了當我們還想要去限制外籍看護工很多選擇權的時候是不是我們也相對落後了"},{"start":4297.621,"end":4319.607,"text":"別人是重金開放式條件還永久居留那我們的競爭力我們台灣未來吸引人的地方到底在哪裡這樣子所以別忘了外籍看護工也是人只要是人他會做出選擇跟判斷他會有自己的想法所以我覺得在思考這個問題的時候可能要從更多元的角度"},{"start":4320.063,"end":4339.105,"text":"大家共同來思考而且應該有一個相對性的思考就是外籍看護工他們自己也會判斷選擇而且有其他國家可以選擇那我們臺灣到底都在提供什麼樣的條件跟環境這個是大家也可以共同去思考的好那最後不曉得還有沒有委員要補充好來李玉琦委員"},{"start":4341.158,"end":4358.872,"text":"我這邊各位請衛福部進一步做說明就是說現在大概有一個是居福一個是一對一的還有一個是住宿機構如果今天80歲以上免巴士量表的話那個的衝擊會是什麼"},{"start":4362.034,"end":4389.833,"text":"甚至第二個事實上是對重症家庭的照顧因為畢竟它還是社會福利的一環當然沒有錯剛剛主席講的移工有選擇權可是家庭它也有一些選擇權我就是沒有想要去機構那我想要在家裡可是過去相對的話移工的確比台灣的其他如果聘僱我自己私人聘僱的話那個經費上是比較低的尤其是對中產階級的家庭的時候"},{"start":4390.885,"end":4413.114,"text":"那如果假設要一個很常是衝擊到女性像過去我們的工作常常會變成是我們的單位變成年輕的人比如大學剛畢業進入到職場就一碰到爸爸中風那最後選擇誰那個剛進到職場的人離職回家去照顧父母"},{"start":4413.891,"end":4439.763,"text":"因為他事實上是薪水是最低的人本來就是會做這樣的一個選擇不會去找那個哥哥姊姊薪水比較高的然後請他離職回家那一樣的在這樣的自由市場機制選擇的時候如果一對一的這個經費比較高的時候如果用國內的那大家就是真的會去選擇也減輕中產階級的家庭另外一個女性如果是二十幾歲綁到家庭裡面五年就好了"},{"start":4440.363,"end":4458.557,"text":"他可能跟社會脫節那另外一個是我們也要思考的是國家用了這麼大力的去培養一個人大學或碩士畢業之後他因為他剛出來薪水比較低可是他只要被綁個兩年、三年大家要出來社會要重新適應也有很大的困難度所以想問說這樣的衝擊到底會是什麼就兩個 以上好 來 市長要回嗎 來 市長"},{"start":4467.865,"end":4492.417,"text":"好這邊也跟這個委員這邊說明因為剛剛確實也都有關心到說這個當時有一個53萬就是說如果一旦這個80歲以上免貧這53萬怎麼來的那這邊也跟委員報告事實上是我們是看了這個戶政司那邊今年3月份滿80歲以上的這個人口數那這個總人口數"},{"start":4496.018,"end":4512.81,"text":"80歲以上的是912976在截止3月份那在這個人數裡面的這個名冊裡面我們卻勾結了那有使用我們長照給支付的人那這個部分包括有聘移工的是55301人沒有聘外籍移工的是214289人"},{"start":4519.814,"end":4539.467,"text":"那針對住宿群機構的有46785人那有聘僱外籍移工可是都沒有使用任何的長照服務的有64699人所以這整個就是不管今天就是有聘移工或沒有聘移工用了長照體系或用了住宿資源"},{"start":4539.947,"end":4541.769,"text":"那這個部分是381,074人80歲以上佔41.74%所以剩下就是531,902人大概佔58.26那這個部分是"},{"start":4555.186,"end":4556.167,"text":"併案審查委員林德福等19人、委員馬文君等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇"},{"start":4571.576,"end":4593.525,"text":"要看個人的一些相關意願那可是我們實務現場確實也看到真的有來使用我們聘移工的然後有來使用我們的服務的包括用喘息啦包括用其他服務的也確實也有看到有一些移工確實也真的不是引進之後不是在照顧的工作所以實務現場民眾也會覺得說那為什麼我們不能聘移工的家庭不能使用照顧服務"},{"start":4598.707,"end":4620.555,"text":"那因為我們現在的狀況就是因為我的本國的人力照顧人力不是那麼充沛所以有關照顧服務跟移工進來的性質類似的這樣的一個工作請了移工的家庭是不能來使用其他的大概3.5包的錢都可以用就只有唯一這個照顧服務B碼的部分不能使用那大概實務現場也會有真的就是不見得用照顧的名義可是進來不見得會處理"},{"start":4626.357,"end":4633.806,"text":"那所以這個部分也是想說提出來一個提醒確實不見得53萬一定會聘可是當有一些他覺得有這樣的人力進來他其實是可以運用的那有經濟能力的有可能就會去聘那現行實務現場也已經有這種現象"},{"start":4645.56,"end":4645.9,"text":"多元免貧"},{"start":4662.542,"end":4691.277,"text":"幾乎到65萬8千多人65萬8千多人是可以可以來走這個我們去年通過的這個三軌的多元免貧可以進來那基本上還是架構在真的這個案家是有需求的議題上面那讓他們也可以不用到醫院那多元免貧那大家盧委員剛剛也關心到原偏鄉的那邊很困難那事實上我們現在已經有八百多家的這個醫療跟診所事實上都可以倒載"},{"start":4692.037,"end":4705.286,"text":"那這個部分也已經都把這個需要評估的這件事情已經盡量簡化那優化讓民眾其實是方便可以來使用這樣的一個服務以上做這樣的一個補充說明來我們請蘇星泉委員我聽你講這個我聽到很想想你30秒我跟你講跟你報告我們這個照顧服務員到家裡你常常這個體系到家裡是一個小時兩個小時而已啊"},{"start":4721.516,"end":4722.648,"text":"萌萌這折的照啊"},{"start":4724.232,"end":4726.574,"text":"這個扁人是24點鐘他就是要有人陪伴走路、走路、走路、怎麼樣人家又開自己的車24小時過這個路,怕被撞上去啦啊你這個長照體系的,你來你上次1點鐘、2點鐘、3點鐘、4點鐘、5點鐘、6點鐘、7點鐘、8點鐘、8點鐘、9點鐘、10點鐘、11點鐘、12點鐘、13點鐘、14點鐘、14點鐘、14點鐘、15點鐘、16點鐘、17點鐘、17點鐘、18點鐘、18點鐘、19點鐘、18點鐘、19點鐘、19點鐘、19點鐘、18點鐘、19點鐘、19點鐘、19點鐘、18點鐘、19點鐘、19點鐘、19點鐘、19點鐘、19點鐘、19點鐘、19點鐘、19點鐘、"},{"start":4754.892,"end":4781.486,"text":"但是一直是短暫有可能是漸漸的遭遭我們需要的我們請來處理過去24小時背這個牢籠所以這是完全不一樣23萬的請外籍看護的這個替我們國家減少多少多少的經費我跟你報告我們長照用的經費是用公務預算"},{"start":4784.226,"end":4804.215,"text":"土地搞歪啦 什麼什麼什麼 宜山水啦 丁丁家公寓採建等等這個是不穩定的收入所以民進黨一直不要用長照保險這個我一直也很納悶就用公寓算 這邊硬撐硬扯那這個是另外一個題外話我們最近講事情不要私交啦再來"},{"start":4805.652,"end":4820.263,"text":"這些需要外籍醫工、外籍醫生這個看護的是再講一次是24小時陪伴這個病人所以這個完全不一樣日本都可以他都知道我為了"},{"start":4821.104,"end":4826.746,"text":"在第八屆立委的時候搞這個長照服務法我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":4842.171,"end":4851.562,"text":"德國的也拿來參考我們台灣的照顧服務法就是在第八屆立委通過通過的時候馬英九總統就跟我講說趕快啦把長照保險法也順便把它過去衝我鬼長照保險法因為當時民進黨的主席叫做蔡英文他堅決反對"},{"start":4862.174,"end":4876.893,"text":"所以這個法則沒過就從第八屆第九屆、第十屆到現在第十一屆沒有人在提長照保險法我自己個人也覺得長照保險法也不用了因為我們建保法改一改就可以卡住很多的長照的"},{"start":4877.534,"end":4880.775,"text":"所以要不要再搜我現在還是打問號啦要弄的話也可以來討論所以今天講的是要說80%以上有需要的人如果真的有需要的人賠,先去申請,開封免巴士量保"},{"start":4898.82,"end":4913.001,"text":"這什麼一句話而已挑那一大堆什麼長照不是重症什麼這個跟這個有什麼關這個什麼事啊所以大家不要私交不要把全部的帽子扣在這個上面沒有必要啦沒有必要我直接不用再討論了有什麼要說的"},{"start":4914.784,"end":4937.523,"text":"好 那就不要再討論了我們就全案保留送院會處理還有誰要發言 剛剛黃秀芳委員是不是來 我們委員再發言完我們就全案保留送院會處理剛剛蘇委員講的其實也是就是說80歲以上或者是確實有需要的民眾就是可以申請我們這個看護移工"},{"start":4941.886,"end":4942.066,"text":"併案審查委員"},{"start":4959.72,"end":4977.297,"text":"人完全請不到家庭看護工這是我們擔心的當然也尊重主席今天如果說要送協商當然是可以送協商我是想要再度的重申剛剛書委員講的也是需要被照顧的人剛剛講的"},{"start":4978.939,"end":4987.482,"text":"併案審查委員林德福等19人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員"},{"start":5000.427,"end":5019.767,"text":"請回家如果說有能力的人是不是請回家就是幫忙煮飯、洗衣或是打掃家裡面反而是造成一些重症或者是需要的人完全請不到這個是我們擔心的事情所以我希望說在這裡再再度的重申謝謝好我們請廖瑞祥委員"},{"start":5024.731,"end":5041.164,"text":"呃我覺得幾個幾個點哦剛剛也有提到說我國女性的勞參率偏低嘛那年這個年齡層上有兩個斷層一個是生小孩階段另外一個就是這個50歲以後要回家照顧年邁的長者剛剛葉勤委員也有提到所以他們最終可能會回去照顧那這就是怎麼樣"},{"start":5042.385,"end":5058.7,"text":"這個就是因為其實在照顧責任上面是有國家、社會和個人我覺得這三個層面那現在剛剛一直在講的就是說因為我們國家提到說會擔心開放這個東西會造成這個真正需要的人沒有辦法用到可是我覺得這不是應該檢討的事這個所謂國家的"},{"start":5061.022,"end":5077.858,"text":"對於我們長照制度或是對於這些有需要人的照顧的接不接得住嗎還有包含你的社會所以我們可以看到歐美國家他可能這個叫做不健康餘命不健康餘命可能就才兩個禮拜那我們國家就是到七七八年七點八年八年左右那"},{"start":5078.817,"end":5102.469,"text":"沒關係我要講到現在就是說我覺得這兩件事應該拆開來看因為我們個人現在剛剛講開放這一公司個人家庭還幫國家來負擔這個照顧長者的費用那我們應該把它拆開來看說這件事情是不是可以給他們有所選擇然後這個另外的所謂長照有沒有辦法接得住這些真正需要的或者國家社會有沒有辦法接得住這件事情應該是我們執政黨要來討論說怎麼樣讓長照更加完備"},{"start":5106.391,"end":5126.799,"text":"那另外再講到剛剛我們這個應該是次長嗎?次長對許次長剛剛有提到說你看日本韓國就是他們都這樣子在開放但是你最後又提到一個說你們想要扣一個帽子叫做說開放這個會不會就是會衝擊到國內勞動市場嗎?所以我是來梳理一下我也不是要挑戰什麼我是梳理一下"},{"start":5127.319,"end":5154.006,"text":"所以後來剛剛蘇青全委員也有說嘛就是這個是因為你國內沒辦法請足夠的也沒有人真的願意去做嘛就那個量能不足那你說如果他會衝擊到那我請問那日本韓國不會有這個擔憂嗎可是為什麼他還是要這樣做很簡單嘛就是有這個需求嘛所以以上整理一下我是真的覺得這個應該把它拆開來看你不要把它扣在一起用這個帽子然後就不想過就一直找各種理由我覺得可以再去討論這樣"},{"start":5155.146,"end":5158.847,"text":"我們請陳昭智委員謝謝主席主席我想向這個朱司長再確認一個數字因為我在質詢的時候也詢問過部長但是我一直沒有確認這件事您剛剛說其實透過去年底的多元評估方式已經有我記得部長那時候回答我說是七成的人已經透過這個機制已經有得到就是說他等於可以使用了嘛那這樣不就剩三成嗎我一直不懂那剩三成為什麼你們會擔心呢"},{"start":5183.479,"end":5204.277,"text":"就是去年的開放因為很多總統的候選人都提出來你們已經做這個評估因為我一直聽到這個七成三成的部分那只剩下三成的病人80歲以上只剩三成的病人也許沒有辦法透過這個方式來得到他想要的照顧那為什麼你們要擔心呢我沒聽錯吧我想把這個數字確認一下"},{"start":5211.584,"end":5226.736,"text":"委員說的那個母數不一樣就是勞動部上次部長說明的是申請的人然後其中80歲以上的占多元免貧的部分占7成"},{"start":5228.784,"end":5244.9,"text":"來申請的人已經有七成都可以過了嘛 對不對有來申請的已經有七成都可以過了嘛因為我們多元免貧沒有限年齡是看他的照顧需要那你說80歲以上有來申請的已經占了七成了 對不對"},{"start":5246.101,"end":5267.816,"text":"對阿 那其實有蠻多數其實也在裡面啦所以開放的衝擊就沒那麼大他剛剛的道理是這樣對阿 趙志偉委員的意思是這樣就是說有需求的透過多元免評來的比例我知道 我知道就是說有需求的來申請的比例你們通過也比那麼高那剩下的就是"},{"start":5269.164,"end":5281.891,"text":"就沒有就就不會像你們口中所說的衝擊那麼大你懂我意思嗎邏輯上是這樣陳昭志委員那個邏輯是沒有錯的如果你們來申請有需求的人來申請透過你們多元已經有七成"},{"start":5283.038,"end":5311.694,"text":"是80歲以上的老人所以你們假設這次開放都沒有需求都跑來申請了是嗎對因為剛剛那種戶籍人數算出來就是91萬的80歲以上那可是有在我們的長照體系有不管有今天有沒有已經一半了嘛已經大概是47%是啊那所以有53%基本上是還沒有沒有這樣的一個目前沒有提出要那可能就是沒有需求"},{"start":5312.554,"end":5320.159,"text":"他可能是沒有需求啊也可能不是失能者嘛因為他有可能就是健康也健康的這些人那所以這53萬多數就是健康也健康的所以這個就是大家在講的嘛這50幾萬你不能把它設定說他是一定會來申請外籍看護工他本來可能就沒有需求所以53萬連你們也不知道這當中可能只會有多少來申請嘛其實你們也抓不到啊"},{"start":5338.251,"end":5354.511,"text":"但是你們不能一直扣這個帽子說就會有53萬要來申請外籍看護工這也是不對的因為就需求性來講現在已經急迫有需求的就會進到你的長照或是他早就透過評估他已經去申請外籍看護工"},{"start":5355.572,"end":5377.634,"text":"那其他的可能它是未來會增加的我們是照顧以後他滿80歲他就不用再去走你的80量表這一塊的你懂我意思嗎所以真的有迫切需求本來早就會進來早就請了但是如果他需求性沒有那麼高也不會因為你說我今天開放之後就大量53萬通用金那是不可能的實務上也不會發生這個邏輯要正確啊"},{"start":5380.276,"end":5382.999,"text":"就是不能亂推估一通啊就是對外一直說我們會有53萬的需求這個也是一個錯誤的見解"},{"start":5387.099,"end":5412.835,"text":"是會有刺激需求啦對啊 但是你不能說53萬啊你的53萬這也是虛假的數字啊你的假設性 百分之百的假設這是不對的啊53萬通常會跑來申請 剛剛蘇惠美在講請外籍看護空是不用錢喔政府沒有補助一毛錢是自己要掏腰包你一年要幾十萬的經費如果他沒有一定的需求情況底下一般民眾會做這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":5414.436,"end":5417.639,"text":"對啊 這個你們那個假設是完全不合理來 武力華委員好 謝謝主席因為我"},{"start":5424.11,"end":5449.057,"text":"版本沒有進來來不及進來沒關係所以我謝謝主席給我這個機會發言因為我有一些也是要跟行政機關來做一個說明首先先我是修12、42、46那我先講46那46的部分最主要是因為我們的原建法已經通過而且當時很堅持把文化安全四個字寫進去"},{"start":5450.777,"end":5477.527,"text":"所以我們是希望說在其他的法特別是在我們救福法的第46條那第9款這些所謂的第9款家庭看護工那我們希望能夠把這個文化安全的精神放進去所以特別在這個地方住民就是看護的對象如果具有原住民身份者我們是希望說能夠在這裡有一個獨立的工作資格跟審查標準"},{"start":5479.008,"end":5503.119,"text":"那另外就是在第42條我也想要跟行政機關表達因為在外國人工作資格及審查標準當中我們是希望增一個第二款也可以把各族群的一個就業狀況因為畢竟各族群的就業的狀況是跟我們的一般國人是有很大的落差所以這個部分也是希望可以納入適時的檢討它的一個標準"},{"start":5505.04,"end":5518.592,"text":"那再來最後就是第12條我上一屆也有提版本但是沒通過可是我們的衛福部我們的那個勞動部很好有用行政措施是什麼呢就是22年前我們增修訂這個兩萬人以上的縣市"},{"start":5526.759,"end":5552.671,"text":"寫德設立援助民族的公立的就業服務機構但是這個法條增訂22年來就沒有任何一個縣市後來我們勞動部有用行政措施目前有6個縣市在做所以我還是希望說在法條的部分能夠把那個德改成因啦讓它更具有一個執行的效力以上謝謝主席"},{"start":5553.711,"end":5563.337,"text":"跟那個委員報告一下因為我們就是你其他的提案可以繼續未來這個委員會可以再審今天特別只針對46條因為我們後來保留協商就只針對46條謝謝你好謝謝好來最後林月清委員"},{"start":5582.762,"end":5596.648,"text":"有需求的事實上已經滿足了70%80歲以上那如果看起來只剩下那個30%那就不知道為什麼要開放因為要有需求所以我就接下來再問重症的長期照顧"},{"start":5598.106,"end":5620.07,"text":"真的要長時間陪伴他有這個需求可是輕症的話沒有需求可是如果要長時間陪伴會不會造成依賴反而助長他衰老的所以我是不是可以請衛福部也說明一下對於輕症需求的老人那聘僱移工那你的看法是什麼"},{"start":5625.628,"end":5638.223,"text":"謝謝委員這邊的提問事實上我們其實除了因為聘移工我們現在目前的行政團隊這邊定調就是有依照顧需求來提供讓他們可以申請"},{"start":5642.207,"end":5649.313,"text":"從這個原則不管他幾歲這個部分是所以我們之前其實就是也針對多元免貧這樣子去設計當然特別提到的是我們現階段在長照2.0一直往前延伸就是希望能夠針對這些亞健康衰弱的能夠創設很多的一些據點讓他們可以到那個據點裡面來"},{"start":5667.207,"end":5688.061,"text":"參加一些課程然後減緩這個失能跟失智的發生那這個也是期待是說他能夠延緩進到失能需要有人力的這個照顧那能夠很多事情是可以自己來能自己來就自己來那這個部分也是目前在長照2.0的一個很重要政策所以現在全國已經有4000多處的一個"},{"start":5690.923,"end":5694.425,"text":"向弄站提供雅健康衰弱的長輩甚至輕度的他能夠在裡面延緩失能的進程當然我們很重要也是希望說這樣的一個長輩因為過往我們確實看到我們也有聽到一些樣態就是確實有時候我們國人會有那種長工的觀念還是很深植人心"},{"start":5717.196,"end":5727.924,"text":"所以有時候會覺得說因為就是我自己自費來聘請的人力所以我會讓他盡量能夠為我所用大概會有這種概念所以有時候也會導致這個因為擔心長輩這個摔跤或擔心長輩有一些狀況所以就是會有事事服事"},{"start":5737.33,"end":5752.661,"text":"那也會剝奪了一些長輩可以能夠自主生活的一個能力食物商也有發現說有這個加重這樣的一個依賴那所以這個部分也是期待是說也提供給委員這邊能夠"},{"start":5755.923,"end":5781.901,"text":"來共同考量因為我們現在長照2.0其實有一些專業服務的導入之後發現確實透過治療人員提醒照顧者應該有一些事情可以怎麼樣來訓練長輩自己完成自己可以做的事情那這樣也是有成效的我們現在也在一直在努力盡量避免都是照服員幫他一直在服務而是訓練照服員有能力有一些事情是讓長輩可以自己來共同完成"},{"start":5782.481,"end":5797.329,"text":"那這個也是長照2.0很核心的一個要推動的一個價值以上做這樣的一個說明好 謝謝今天出席的委員還有官員大家的發言因為我們還有第二場的協商王委員還有不一樣的意見嗎 來"},{"start":5801.151,"end":5818.418,"text":"謝謝主席讓我再次發言有關於這個鄭天財委員黃建平委員提案裡面有關於癌症的部分剛剛都沒有處理到或討論到需要提供一點意見給大家做參考嗎就是有關於上面有提到除了80歲以上免貧以外他這邊特別提到70歲到79歲"},{"start":5820.599,"end":5840.046,"text":"患有癌症二期以上者得免評這個部分因為其實癌症在第二期如果佔了百分之三十左右的話事實上這群人他是可以透過基本的治療就可以康復所以如果把這個也放進來當作免評的話應該是不適合我個人意見"},{"start":5841.127,"end":5862.413,"text":"好 謝謝王委員那因為我們在委員會已經討論非常多那今天也再次謝謝各位委員跟官員的意見那因為大家沒有共識我們就全案保留送院會處理那我們休息五分鐘稍後協商老人福利法所以跟老人福利法無關的官員就可以先行離開 謝謝"},{"start":6177.827,"end":6196.814,"text":"好 我們繼續老人福利法修正草案黨團協商那現在要併案協商的是老人福利法第22條及第25條條文修正草案總共有7案那我們介紹一下出席的官員剛剛委員已經介紹過我們介紹官員衛福部呂健德政務次長社會保險司陳真惠副司長"},{"start":6204.67,"end":6232.562,"text":"法規會陳信誠參事社家署簡惠娟署長中央健保署龐一鳴副署長內政部國家公園署吳迪江專門委員農業部林業及自然保育署李允忠組長交通部公共運輸及經理司王基周檢任記者觀光署蔡中生副組長"},{"start":6234.492,"end":6261.314,"text":"經濟部國營事業管理司劉真祥專門委員水利署檢任政工程師董事榮工程師退府會事業管理處張良朋科長文化部中規司魏秋儀司長行政院主計總處公務預算處廖玉琳專門委員教育部中生教育司紀賢養專門委員"},{"start":6263.766,"end":6268.708,"text":"好謝謝那我們現在就開始協商我們從第22條其實22條25條我想都可以了委員就自由發表意見來有關於第22條第25條委員有沒有意見要表達那這個行政官員有沒有要再補充說明市長沒有是不是"},{"start":6293.592,"end":6305.545,"text":"好 那沒有我們就全案保留受寫上委員沒有意見 官員沒有意見 那就是繼續我們全案保留好 來 市長你再講一下"},{"start":6312.122,"end":6330.852,"text":"針對這兩個條文來主席在座大院各位委員各位同仁大家早安我是衛福部次長呂建德由於部長因為現在在行政院院會所以由我代表本部來這邊向各位委員以及大院來說明這一條"},{"start":6332.293,"end":6347.205,"text":"那我想委員我想一直以來對於整個臺灣我們現在已經逐漸將邁入高齡社會那麼對於我們的長輩對我們很多老人我們的這一個長輩也都是非常非常關心那我想這個也帶動我們臺灣經濟成長還有我們生養我們子女這個我們來尊敬長輩這個是應該的不過現在就是說對於本案"},{"start":6355.592,"end":6365.644,"text":"我們現在目前大概還是有我們還是建議是否還是就是說還是緩疫那麼原因如下有總共有三點第一個整個社會保險"},{"start":6367.372,"end":6393.069,"text":"最重要其實事實上還是這一個量能科稅那整個全民健保事實上是臺灣最重要的一個社會保險那麼整個財務的問題我想最近大家也都非常非常關切那我想整個最重要應該還是這一個各盡所能各取所需那麼應該每一個人還是根據他自己本身的能力來支持我們這一個集體的公共財我想這個才是整個全民之福"},{"start":6393.729,"end":6403.538,"text":"那麼另外第二個現在就是說現在目前的相關提案裡面老人福利法裡面我想大概有很多很多的一些關切最主要是希望就是說針對我們現在目前這一個報稅稅率20%以下的長輩健保費全免"},{"start":6410.524,"end":6435.27,"text":"那我們現在目前本部提出有三個重要的一個評估請敬請大院來謹慎評估第一點是如果說這個案子一旦通過的話第一個就整個財政上對於整個國家還有這對健保財務將會造成很大的這個衝擊按照我們現在目前的一個估計跟估算每一年我們以今年為例我們現在目前評估之後一旦通過之後將"},{"start":6436.61,"end":6457.282,"text":"整個會增加到359億3308萬那麼預估到138年因為高齡化的問題呢會提高到628億那所以我想財政上面是一個是一個非常非常沉重的一個的一個負擔如果說未來我想我們現在目前臺灣也在經濟也持續的成長"},{"start":6458.663,"end":6471.718,"text":"那我想在未來國家財力可負擔的情況之下我想這一個應該也是指日可待但問題現階段恐怕財政上面恐怕會有一個比較大的衝擊那另外一方面除了減少支出之外另外本來應該要繳的"},{"start":6474.201,"end":6489.082,"text":"的這一個的人他也減少所以對我們現在目前的整個這個健保財務我想也會雪上加霜那麼對於我們現在比較吃緊的健保財務最後還是恐怕比較不利那一旦不利之後又要調保費"},{"start":6490.584,"end":6515.683,"text":"那最後還是這個羊毛出到羊身上恐怕還是要用年輕人他來負擔這是第一點第二點根據我們現在目前的這一個財稅的這一個相關的資料如果按照現在目前的這一個的這個稅率20%的一個計算的話那麼其實可能會造成整個這一個青年世代這個就是說跟我們現在目前長輩兩者之間整個這一個財富財務上面的這個失衡"},{"start":6520.026,"end":6528.428,"text":"那我們這邊也附上一個相關的一個的一個的一個資料如果按照現在目前的這一個估算的話我們以"},{"start":6530.505,"end":6552.956,"text":"國發會他現在目前這一個壽星階級員工他的這一個平均薪資我們取中位薪資中位薪資這個可能會比較準一個月大概4.32但是如果在稅率20%以下的話那麼我們的長輩各位雖然20%的是什麼概念就是我們現在最近都在報稅是年所得淨所得121萬到242萬"},{"start":6557.403,"end":6581.349,"text":"那這個你把它做一個平均可能這一個家戶的這個長輩他一個月有可能大概10萬左右那對於你要讓4萬的這個年輕人他來補貼月所得10萬這個我想在一般這個社會上面恐怕大家也會覺得比較可能也會比較奇怪一點"},{"start":6582.469,"end":6605.525,"text":"所以我們這一點我想對於整個世代正義我想這個也是一個非常我想委員大家也都非常非常關切那我們希望長輩當然我們希望能夠好好來聽受但我也相信我們的長輩絕對不會希望就是說把這如果說可能的話也是我們也聽受我們的家裡是誰希望說好好那個次長我可以問你一個數據嗎你剛剛講的是20%對沒錯有的直轄市他是用5%對5%的話是多少"},{"start":6610.832,"end":6621.461,"text":"5%的話我們現在目前按照現在目前的稅率的話是報稅的報稅的稅率的話這邊有沒有數據你們之前我就請你們要做兩個版本一個是20%一個是5%的"},{"start":6625.907,"end":6642.471,"text":"對 我們現在如果說以目前 你們應該要把各種版本的數據攤開來對 包委我們現在目前如果按照如果如果是報稅是如果說5%的話那它是大概為147億左右147億而已 對不對減半對 沒錯12%是292億"},{"start":6655.006,"end":6662.303,"text":"對阿你們應該要把三個數據都提供ok那我們這邊齁我們也會再來提供相關的一個的一個數據你手上有嗎現在去印發給委員"},{"start":6663.567,"end":6687.69,"text":"好OK好那我們這個是不是就OK那另外第三個我想比較更我想更重要的一個問題我們現在目前長照我們現在目前長照都已經在推動那從過去是一年只有大約49億到目前為止我們已經增加到將近快800多億那我們有限的這一個資源有限的資金我想比較重要的恐怕還是要"},{"start":6688.791,"end":6712.994,"text":"還是要來支持我們現在目前長輩在各項的這一個實務給付那所以基於以上三點原則我們還是希望大院是不是能夠考量這一個國家財政還有整個這一個世代公平正義以及現在目前實務給付的原則是否能夠對於本案來予以反映以上謝謝"},{"start":6714.946,"end":6734.157,"text":"好來我們現在請委員發言剛剛是黃秀芳委員再來陳昭芝委員好謝謝主席謝謝主席我是不是可以請教就是說我在之前有特別提到我們的我們目前是70歲以上的這個中低或低收的這個長輩是免繳健保"},{"start":6737.159,"end":6753.892,"text":"那未來是不是就是降低這個門檻就是說年齡降低這個我希望就是說把這個需要被照顧的人真的得到政府的照顧這個我覺得應該是要這樣子而不是說如果說用所得稅率20%的話"},{"start":6757.094,"end":6769.024,"text":"所得稅率20%就像剛剛次長講的也許他如果換算起來可能月薪月薪是這個5萬到10萬這中間的長輩如果換算成月薪那我們現在這個年輕人一個月可能也才3、4萬確實會有一些被剝奪感那如果說我們是以真的需要被照顧的這些長輩"},{"start":6782.355,"end":6788.899,"text":"也許我上次提的就是說65到69歲中低或低收那也許這個門檻可以再把它降低可能就是60歲以上的低收或中低收的這個長輩就可以免繳健保費我覺得這個是可以去考慮的啦而且是真正的照顧需要被照顧的人"},{"start":6803.109,"end":6831.206,"text":"那如果說以所得稅率20%這樣一刀切下去的話其實我覺得相對的會有一些剝奪感另外我可不可以請教就是說以目前如果20%所得稅率20%那這個他有我不知道你們可不可以查不查得到就是說他本身這個存款可能上百萬然後房子可能也兩棟以上如果這樣子這長輩還需要"},{"start":6833.107,"end":6860.009,"text":"政府去每年撥這個經費來益助這個健保65歲健保免費我覺得這個我還是要重申就是說希望是照顧需要照顧的人中低或低收而且是把這個年紀年齡把它下降原本是70歲以上那是不是再把這個年齡再下降我覺得這個是真正的照顧到長輩好謝謝"},{"start":6868.067,"end":6889.094,"text":"謝謝那個次次長因為上次我們討論的時候是跟部長在溝通所以那時候就是已經有那主席也指示了實際我們是小你剛剛講20我們是要小於20那就只剩兩級就是12%跟5%我們要知道那個真相因為你的計算的基礎我們要知道你要怎麼計算這是第一個第二個要扣除"},{"start":6890.574,"end":6904.101,"text":"現在已經在補助的而且完全就也是符合在這個這個是個如果這個是個大集合那裡面有一部分是已經在補助我記得當時那一次的協商因為是部長在他們上去馬上改口剩100多億"},{"start":6905.282,"end":6909.065,"text":"從300多億我印象沒有錯是馬上掉到所以我們才覺得不可以這樣子用一個這麼粗的數字告訴我們我們要知道那個計算的這個基礎那第三個當時就是說因為大家一定會談到健保的負擔那健保的負擔那個國家本來是要付出36%可是我也提過我們一直對那個36的定義有問題"},{"start":6930.439,"end":6935.341,"text":"我們對那個定義因為國家本來在法定他就要先我們一直認為他沒有補足這個部分包括從來沒有足夠我比喻譬如公務員因為我們每個人保費是由所謂自己老闆跟國家但是連公務員這個老闆他也都算作國家的補助這個算法等等那還有很多細節那個行政部就那個36%一直受到質疑我們一直懷疑這個是不到的那根本你還沒有補到這個部分也要做一個處理"},{"start":6959.229,"end":6962.958,"text":"所以那個數字馬上又做了一些改變"},{"start":6966.417,"end":6993.31,"text":"今天又提到長照嘛那我們當然健保部會提到那個健康投資那我之前在薛部長的時期我就告訴他因為他就擅自把那個衛福部官網上的那個健康投資的部分他就是來一個校正回歸啦就是偷偷的在去年的時候來個校正回歸本來6點多他把它提高到7點多那我一直在質問他當然我知道答案我才問他他就說他把長照加進來了"},{"start":6995.631,"end":6999.995,"text":"那你把長照加進來的時候因為我們同時當然今天有點負擔因為當然還是談健保那健保的這個地方的新藥新科技的時候他又不算就是說政府在處理這個事是不公平的就是說你覺得那個長照算是我們的投資可是你在對於新藥新科技在幫助這些人減少"},{"start":7015.446,"end":7029.098,"text":"長照使用的時候你又不算所以我看到很多的矛盾因為我自己對這個部分比較熟悉所以次長如果今天您進來代表我們就覺得你估算的那個基礎那個估算我們要知道真相跟細節第二個36%政府盡到責任沒有謊論那個健保報告第幾條說不滿36%的中央有資"},{"start":7037.305,"end":7063.102,"text":"必須撥補耶 把它撥補足了 那個法條都還硬邦邦的在那個地方所以 社長就是說 給我們數字我們不是不能體會 不是不能去看那另外一個最後的觀點是 因為台灣不然你就要去管啦台灣有錢的都 有錢的城市就全額補住啊包括台南好像住滿一年啦 也給補啦那有些地方有 有些地方沒有 你這個不平權嘛"},{"start":7064.423,"end":7077.485,"text":"那你是強迫大家說要住這裡住那裡戶籍一來一去還是什麼這是一個不平權的觀念啊不然就就這個部分這是衍生的部分也是要處理啊好謝謝市長好接下來我們請蘇清泉委員我要站起來我要站起來說要算計了要站起來市長還有各位官員齁我這裡有三點講第一個我們現在65歲以上的老人到底是多少人啊"},{"start":7094.264,"end":7118.564,"text":"都亂講 你們行政官員給data要準一點不然的話以後真的會給你抓包 又給你移送給我辦 你們給我笑不可以這樣一次每次給的data都是呼嚨呼嚨的436萬 這準的嘛好 到底六都的 多少人六都現在都要撥租啊"},{"start":7119.898,"end":7134.958,"text":"你說一個人一年的減薄費才有8000多塊那給你算一萬好了也才436億住在六都的早在補助項台中市盧秀文請先告訴我他就補啊"},{"start":7136.139,"end":7139.203,"text":"六都都有,不是只有台東六都都講話沒有,我平常也沒有,我生氣的時候就說要自己65歲才能夠檢討,那樣子賣到你死我算算的,沒有這麼多錢嘛,因為你有牌付嘛"},{"start":7151.072,"end":7171.601,"text":"那你六都拿掉然後又排富排富現在是用5%還是12%還是20%有的用20%有的用12%有的用5%那你說會年輕人的會負擔加重我告訴你現在的長輩都是小孩在拿六件薪水你現在隨便帶他們走水也太減輕負擔感謝你死什麼增加他們的負擔"},{"start":7177.364,"end":7183.709,"text":"這根本是看你用哪一個角度看所以我們現在這個排富是真的要執行像剛剛葉琴姐跟秀芳姐他們都說要排富排富我覺得一定要"},{"start":7194.673,"end":7211.168,"text":"沒錯沒錯所以你用5%還是用10%你用5%5%就不算了嘛我們的5、12、20、30、40嘛現在的稅率是這樣那你如果不抓20%你抓12%或5%可以算啦這可以算出來的所以"},{"start":7212.649,"end":7223.377,"text":"老人需要照顧的老人現在說70歲以上的總體收入當然也要趕快補助最後一個跟那個趙姿她剛剛講的趙姿姐政府應該負責36%從來沒有到位的黃毅民副署長從來沒有到位從馬英九時代都沒有到位的"},{"start":7240.097,"end":7264.472,"text":"到現在蔡英文的也沒有到位了到現在賴清德我看也一直在逼的他還講說要到38%氣況嘛我們就把他拗拗出來所以這個政府講的話都挪來挪去都亂講一通所以往後不需要這樣子啦所以你剩下的才有百多億而已百幾億你現在人家一天在扶你會靠掉你現在"},{"start":7272.191,"end":7301.148,"text":"財政法案如果做好就要人家自己扶啊對不對財政法案如果做好你如果要選共和館政府你要注意你共和館沒有的好 謝謝蘇星泉委員我們可以看到衛福部現在這個表委員手上都有嘛我們很快速的來看一遍如果是這個補助綜合所的稅率未達20%的話現在衛福部估算的是"},{"start":7301.934,"end":7304.978,"text":"359億3308萬元如果是用12%來看的話未達12%的話是295萬5884我看錯了"},{"start":7320.677,"end":7324.258,"text":"就是292億9872萬元那如果是才5%5%的話呢他要支出的是147億3720萬元那這當中剛剛委員特別提到的就是因為不同的那個等級其實支付不一樣如果再扣掉你們現行比如說我們用5%來看你們這個是total對不對"},{"start":7348.785,"end":7356.94,"text":"147億是TOTAL扣掉你現行針對中低已經在補助的那額外是多少 你們自己手上有帳目"},{"start":7360.282,"end":7368.407,"text":"20億所以他等於是增加120億而已對不對在扣掉你原來已經支付的若是採取5%的這個計算方式是120億那另外在總統大選期間討論這個議題的時候當時這個陳時中不是薛瑞元部長他當時有特別提到就是說要回應這個議題你們要多提撥100億針對健保"},{"start":7388.254,"end":7413.151,"text":"我記得他是說第六類裡面就是要多支出100億這個我上次也有質詢過那你們這一個已經開始附中了嘛我的意思是如果當時其實衛福部的回應是要增加100億的支出就是在這個部分要擴大支出100億跟現行如果我們採取最低的5%的話事實上這相差不多"},{"start":7414.229,"end":7440.206,"text":"就是這個這個加起來的金額坦白講是差不多喔100億的規模跟這邊算起來增加120億的規模其實是差不多沒有你們講的那些問題那是那個部長離開之後的尊都索嗎這個媒體都有報導喔媒體有報導次長你有被交接到嗎就是要多增加100億的這一個那這個的對象是誰你要不要補充說明一下OK 非常感謝"},{"start":7444.383,"end":7460.913,"text":"非常感謝主席這邊的垂詢那我想這據我瞭解這邊最主要事實上是針對第六類第六類裡面就是比較因為第六類是屬於地區保險那這裡面大概有一些是屬於比較屬於弱勢的部分這個弱勢的部分我們現在目前也確實都在盤點當中"},{"start":7462.952,"end":7473.298,"text":"所以你那個規模是100億我的意思是說如果這次修法如果真的覺得那個一下子財政支出太多我們採取現在六度也有人採取是5%的稅率的話跟你現在你去盤點你辛辛苦苦去盤點那些盤點出來差不多100億了"},{"start":7479.882,"end":7499.741,"text":"那剛剛黃修芳委員特別提到說想要針對65歲以上的弱勢照顧那我覺得我們真的這個施政有時候要節省一下大家的力氣你與其在那邊盤點半天你算出來是100億的規模這邊如果透過修法我們直接就去補助綜合所的稅率未達稅率5%的所有的人"},{"start":7502.023,"end":7508.866,"text":"他其實大概是100多億的規模兩個差不多但是可以解決了所有他就可以涵蓋剛剛黃秀芳委員講的我們對於弱勢的絕對是全部cover就是如果採計未達5%的話是全部都可以cover"},{"start":7516.496,"end":7535.175,"text":"那這個就可以又解決全軌制性的問題你不要說在嘉義縣的老人,嘉義縣老人比例又很高屏東的老人什麼寶座都沒有,彰化也是沒有人那就只有六都的老人就是有的經濟狀況還比較好,但是反而他們的福利比較好這個一國多治,坦白講是不公平的"},{"start":7535.695,"end":7559.199,"text":"所以我覺得衛福部應該要認真思考就是說如果我們可以採計如果委員大家有共識衛福部也可以同意的話我們採用的是這個未達稅率5%的這個部分那沒有增加你們太多的經驗跟你未來在方向性上其實是完全一致的你們那時候對媒體講就是你要增加100億已經對外講了對啊那所以我覺得這個方案其實是"},{"start":7563.752,"end":7582.69,"text":"看起來相對可行啦就是階段性的又兼顧到公平正義全國一致性也顧及到你中央的財政沒有一下子拉高很多那我覺得這一個應該是一個可行的模式啦這個大家委員大家也再思考看看"},{"start":7584.025,"end":7612.933,"text":"我是覺得對啊就是大家多商量這個其實是你真的就照顧到這個有需要的老人來王委員然後林委員好謝謝主席因為我就針對我的長輩屬青年委員的做法我也站起來說其實剛剛主席所說明的部分的確如果是以5%來看的話是會造成的衝擊相對是比較低一點"},{"start":7613.593,"end":7633.399,"text":"不過我呼應一下剛剛我們消防委員所提到的針對於我們要照顧的對象5%來的到底有沒有隱藏事實上他有可能本身雖然是報說是5%不過他也有可能不知道處理有其他的部分的修理什麼的我們看不出來那當然20%的相對會比較多5%多少其實我們也沒有數據阿阿馬不知道說"},{"start":7639.1,"end":7654.551,"text":"隱藏性的有錢人透過這樣的方式來補助或者是幫助他們當然這也是一個做法只是相對來講大家也會有一點好像沒有那麼樣的真的公平對待的感受所以我是蠻贊成有關於中低收入"},{"start":7655.191,"end":7682.234,"text":"或者是低收這些民眾他真的是一定要需要政府的幫助以前的年齡相對是比較在60到65歲69歲之間這部分我們如果再考慮看看把這個年齡層做一些適當的調控以後針對這一群的這個需要政府大力來協助他們能夠在這個健保會上面有得到更大的幫助"},{"start":7682.774,"end":7690.005,"text":"希望我們真正能夠做到的就是照顧弱勢這個弱勢 真正的弱勢它不會隱藏任何的財產會讓我們擔心說它會不會佔用到社會資源"},{"start":7693.706,"end":7719.059,"text":"那如果我們看其他的數據包括說新北、台中、台南、高雄是補助5%以下另外台北、桃園是補助20%這個是一般戶這一般戶來講我們剛剛經過討論以後這個他們的確是對他們的當地的住民是有適度的幫助可是如果把這些全部都變成要中央來補助的話事實上"},{"start":7720.22,"end":7737.826,"text":"受衝擊剛算起來如果是5%以下是100億左右可是不管多少費用基本上我們期待就是如果我們對全台灣的民眾我們希望能夠幫助到最需要幫助的人我們希望有更好的方式來解決這個問題以上好接下來林委員"},{"start":7745.197,"end":7762.809,"text":"我覺得這應該是救助政策不是一個福利政策因為如果用所的稅率真的看不到儲蓄房屋土地我也同意比較贊成事實上剛剛秀芳委員講的中低收或低收因為過去是70歲以上那現在降到65歲這是一個"},{"start":7765.211,"end":7786.152,"text":"第一點那第二個我還是要問不知道剛剛一直在講六都那也要問衛福部有針對六都在使用因為大餅就是這麼大塊那如果貼補的時候常常我最擔心的這也是過去我上次也提過在過去社福考核的時候"},{"start":7788.294,"end":7802.085,"text":"併案審查委員林德福等19人：一、社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告併案審查委員林德福等19人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻"},{"start":7809.111,"end":7836.131,"text":"常常就會是把青少年這一塊都忽略掉所以我也想問的是說那六度再補的時候到底犧牲掉誰往往很常因為現在很少會去犧牲掉兒童為什麼因為父母嘛比較關注可是青少年可能爹不疼娘不愛吧那所以當上次我質詢的時候我在這一題把我的放到臉書真的回應我的很多青少年他相對真的有很大剝奪感"},{"start":7837.152,"end":7852.809,"text":"因為剛剛講說如果剛剛5%稅率56萬我用13.5個月除14萬1一個年輕人社工這次也是才調到3萬7今年度那他過去3萬4甚至更早前面政府沒有要求"},{"start":7854.25,"end":7875.718,"text":"社工的薪水三萬二還有一群人叫幼教老師這一群常常都是過去我比較常接觸的人他們薪水也是普遍低然後一個年輕人他賺的錢他去貼補賺到四萬一的人的時候甚至不知道他真的只有四萬一嗎他搞不好我剛剛講他還有儲蓄房屋土地這些東西"},{"start":7876.698,"end":7898.668,"text":"你不覺得難怪我們的年輕人只能去當躺平族好了因為再努力真的也沒有什麼用為什麼要他負擔的這麼大2027年的時候15歲到64歲工作的人只剩下67%要這麼多人去承擔這個如果補助最後政府沒辦法貼補的時候那大家就是要健保往上"},{"start":7899.4,"end":7913.509,"text":"又是年輕人講好不要往上的話那回來看我們的預算裏邊就是還是去排擠到需要甚至他可能沒有跟你講需要可是真正他需要可是呢就因為你們預算大概不會去編錢來服務他們我覺得這不是一個好的"},{"start":7917.532,"end":7917.652,"text":"還有委員要發言嗎"},{"start":7946.434,"end":7950.48,"text":"好 如果沒有的話那我們最後就請衛福部再回應好 來 市長"},{"start":7955.228,"end":7977.371,"text":"主席以及各位委員我想我想大家都是一致的大家心都一致可是現在問題就是說確實是資源真的非常非常有限那我想在這一個情況之下我們可能要有一些Priority那誠如剛剛月秦委員剛剛所說的我們現在目前按照現在目前整個國家的這個大餅其實事實上我們長輩的這個部分其實事實上確實是占相當大一部分"},{"start":7977.751,"end":7997.048,"text":"那對於我們未來兒少青少年的部分我想這部分應該是我們也是本部未來應該要來強化我想這一點我們非常非常同意那另外一個就是說錢確實應該要花在刀口上面最近大家都剛報稅大家都知道年輕人這個我們剛剛已經贏了一個數字現在目前的working population已經降到只剩下67%"},{"start":7998.169,"end":8010.595,"text":"那我們現在目前是不是有限的資源真的還是要花在刀口上那剛剛我想秀芳委員還有剛剛還有幾位委員大概都有提到就是說我們是不是可以我們現在目前大概已經有70歲的這個補助"},{"start":8014.577,"end":8030.992,"text":"那我想我們確實誠如剛剛主席剛剛所說的我們這個部分是不是可以來花在刀口上面那剛剛我們可能可以來往往這個就是說年齡下修我們現在目前已經其實比如說到65歲但是呢還是要在低收跟中低收的部分那因為我這邊還是要強調齁雖然說剛剛說報稅稅率5%"},{"start":8034.915,"end":8057.047,"text":"可是因為各位也知道我們現在目前的整個基深體制其實有很多很多還是有些隱藏性的收入其實事實上我們可能政府這邊恐怕沒有辦法查到我跟各位報告財稅的資料顯示我們現在目前整個我們65歲以上退休的這一個民眾他的利息所得大概佔大概50%"},{"start":8058.749,"end":8073.251,"text":"然後這一個鼓勵所得也大概42%其他有8%左右是租賃所得那這個很多事實上恐怕都還是我們就是說恐怕不是上面上面我們能夠能夠能夠看得到但是我們可以確定的是"},{"start":8073.672,"end":8096.231,"text":"低收中低收都是經過我們資產調查就是非常非常板子叮叮非常非常清楚所以這個有限的這個資源如果能夠花在這部分我想本部是比較希望往這個方向所以剛剛委員剛剛有提到就是說我們現在目前70歲如果說往下降到比如說65歲並且花在並且是補助低收中低收那本部我想我們可以來往這個方向來研議"},{"start":8096.932,"end":8106.181,"text":"那至於其他我想因為就是說確實牽涉到整個這個現在目前這一個我想公平正義還有補助政策所以這一點也請這個好謝謝接下來我們請徐譽貞委員發言謝謝"},{"start":8113.518,"end":8130.228,"text":"本席的主席還有各位觀眾大家好我想本席的提案是針對這個綜合所得率未滿這個未達20%以上的然後希望能夠增加這個不足65歲以上的老人的一個健保費"},{"start":8130.868,"end":8146.749,"text":"那因為其實站在這個觀點我們其實是增加老人的福利而不是這個針對健保的這個總額的問題那當然為什麼說要65歲以上其實現在很多縣市尤其是大概直轄市因為財源充足所以說其實他們"},{"start":8148.05,"end":8154.119,"text":"併案審查委員林德福等19人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員王鴻薇等20人、委員"},{"start":8163.874,"end":8181.874,"text":"如果你是在這個你持健保卡你在臺北市你可能是你就是可以有65歲以上就可以來來有這樣的補助但是你有可能在一些其他的十幾個縣市尤其是農業縣因為財源不足並沒有辦法有這樣的一個補助那這個本來就會造成說為什麼我同樣是"},{"start":8183.576,"end":8206.924,"text":"中華民國的國民我是65歲以上老人可是我卻不能享有這樣的一個福利所以站在一個平權的概念我覺得應該是要全國統一然後由政府來補助當然你說會增加多少的經費我覺得這個部分其實說在比起每年超徵的這個幾千億這個部分我相信政府應該是有辦法能夠負擔的謝謝"},{"start":8209.662,"end":8226.649,"text":"好 謝謝徐立貞委員那我想這個老人福利法第22條、25條我們在委員會其實也討論很多那剛剛的討論大家其實沒有共識我們就全案保留送院會處理那今天協商會議到此結束謝謝大家 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154383","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154383","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c93b44c3c8a09e5024b539dbd63c1cc91ef8091c70453fc49ab4f16a3dcf70bd65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:52:33 - 12:00:26","影片長度":"00:07:53","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:52:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T12:00:26+08:00","duration":473,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":707,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時52分）謝謝。請外交部林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長辛苦了。駐美代表大概是屬於部長級的大使，因為對美關係是我國對外關係中的重中之重，是核心，所以駐美代表的人選，他的人格特質、他的能力、他在華府的影響力都要得到大家的肯定。所以我長期觀察駐美代表人選有幾項特質，第一個，要低調，個人的事情要低調，當然為了臺美關係，一定要全力去推動或者捍衛也好，但對私人的事情一定要很低調，做事也一定要很謹慎，因為動見觀瞻。不只是駐美代表，其他駐處的代表或者大使都要有這種特質，所以我們在遴選外館的館長或者大使的時候，要特別注意他們的人格特質，太高調的不太適合。所以為什麼會有這些事件出來，會有這些批評的聲音或者質疑的聲音出來？部長，您的看法是怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：每一個人都有他的風格，當然外交上面，大家都知道外交官需要具備一些條件，能夠代表國家，但是對內怎麼去領導，讓同仁有士氣，發揮團隊的戰力，這個也是另外一個大使很重要的任務。"],["邱委員志偉：讓我覺得納悶跟困惑的是，蕭副總統擔任駐美大使三年期間，也沒什麼聽說官舍要換新，或者是要添購什麼物品，或者是公務車不當使用等這種狀況，甚至歷任的館長、歷任的駐美代表，好像也比較少這種聲音。所以您瞭解的狀況是怎麼樣？報告寫出來了嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們初步都有在瞭解，不管是電報或者是電話，我們當然知道大概就是媒體報導的那個事情，所以也做了一些說明。可是因為這個有可能是內部同仁有一些不滿的意見，把一些資料傳出去，所以這個部分就是涉及到外館內部的事情。"],["邱委員志偉：如果他說的是屬實，那當然……"],["林部長佳龍：對，沒有錯，我們就事論事，但是個人的部分，我們當然……"],["邱委員志偉：如果他是不當……或者是誇大，當然你就要以正視聽。你也知道駐美代表的地位以及重要性是屬於部長級的，所以大家會用放大鏡來檢視，一言一行都非常重要，不管是公領域或者私生活都非常地重要。所以，外交系統一定要知人善任，因為華府是前線中的前線，如果前線的指揮官、前線的將領被質疑，你要怎麼領兵作戰、你要怎麼衝鋒陷陣、你要怎麼領導聯合國相關組織？這都是駐美代表主要的任務嘛！如果你個人的問題會困擾你，會形成你工作上的障礙、會形成推動臺美關係的一些阻礙的話，可能部長要思考一下這個重要性，不能以私害公啊！個人的事都是小的，臺美關係才是國家的大政，它是國家利益之所在，國家利益他沒有去思考，因為他每天在思考……不是說他的床墊怎麼樣、沙發怎麼樣，他要每天去思考怎麼樣分分秒秒、時時刻刻、日日月月去推動精進臺美關係啊！","所以我看到這個報導或相關的評論是有點擔心啊！那麼重要的位置，前方的將領，領導統御也好，你說這個是內部問題，就代表領導統御有問題，如果前軍作戰的指揮官出現這一種領導統御的問題，那將士怎麼服你？團隊的力量怎麼樣去發揮？如果團隊力量沒有辦法發揮，損及的就是國家利益，影響的是臺美關係，對不對？當然在外交圈也會變成一個新聞，大家就會去討論啊！reputation很重要，部長，您的評論怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：當然怎麼樣去提高同仁工作的士氣，發揮更大的團隊戰力，這個是任何一個主管、尤其是在外館的大使，他當然負完全的領導跟責任。我覺得在對外上面，我們在華府的代表處確實是發揮很好的功能，臺美關係不斷地在提升中。"],["邱委員志偉：位子越高，權力越大……"],["林部長佳龍：但是因為內部有一些怎麼樣去激勵同仁的士氣，然後讓這些不平的聲音能夠妥善地解決，這也是領導者要做的工作。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我這邊也要跟部長做個溝通，位子越高、職位越重要、權力越大就要更謙卑，就好像一位修行者一樣，修行你曉不曉得？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["邱委員志偉：心要淨，心若不淨、心若不正，邪魔就入，所以位子越高、權力越大就會更孤獨，因為你就像一位修行者一樣，每天砥礪自己，你每天所思念的、思考的、思慮的都是國家利益。"],["林部長佳龍：是，因為領導風格有一些是願景領導，有些是行動領導，有些是服務領導，所以領導怎麼樣將幫忙的同仁都當作貴人，以激勵士氣，發揮更大的效果。"],["邱委員志偉：我對俞大使沒有任何偏見，我只是就事論事，就是一個位子那麼重要，主掌的是臺美關係、國家利益，所以要用修行者的態度，很謹慎地說每一句話、做每一件事情。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請張啓楷委員、張啓楷，張啓楷委員不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","請蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧委員不在。","今天已登記質詢的委員，除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.35034375,"end":11.640968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.910968750000002,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.379093750000003,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.180343750000002,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.61471875,"end":18.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.550968750000003,"end":22.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.352218750000002,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.53346875,"end":25.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.65971875,"end":28.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.22471875,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.40159375,"end":32.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.53221875,"end":32.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.13971875,"end":34.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.721593750000004,"end":36.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.290968750000005,"end":39.501593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.37909375,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.32346875,"end":48.985343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.01909375,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.15409375,"end":50.571593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.010343750000004,"end":51.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.98909375,"end":52.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.63846875,"end":55.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.697218750000005,"end":57.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.148468750000006,"end":59.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.768468750000004,"end":61.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.72596875000001,"end":64.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.94909375,"end":66.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.68721875,"end":67.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.93596875,"end":70.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.58096875000001,"end":72.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.72846875,"end":73.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.65221875,"end":79.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.00159375,"end":81.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.02659375,"end":83.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.08534375,"end":87.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.18596875,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.42596875000001,"end":92.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.58159375000001,"end":99.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.44159375000001,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.93471875,"end":104.67284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.92159375,"end":106.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.61346875000001,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.48221875,"end":110.64659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.45659375000001,"end":121.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.63221875,"end":122.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.38721875,"end":123.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.99471875,"end":126.15471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.35721875,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.57971875,"end":139.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.43096875,"end":141.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.00034375,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.16471875000002,"end":144.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.91971875000002,"end":147.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.09221875,"end":148.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.64471875,"end":150.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.23096875000002,"end":154.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.82534375,"end":156.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.71534375000002,"end":159.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.93846875,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.91284375,"end":165.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.50284375,"end":174.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.85596875000002,"end":178.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.48409375,"end":179.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.52596875,"end":181.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.94346875000002,"end":183.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.64784375000002,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.34346875,"end":188.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.08159375000002,"end":193.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.42284375,"end":194.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.41409375,"end":202.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.02159375000002,"end":199.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.78409375,"end":208.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.74096875,"end":214.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.47409375,"end":217.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.37659375,"end":221.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.00471875000002,"end":222.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.61221875,"end":224.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.78471875000002,"end":228.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.32409375,"end":233.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.98596875,"end":236.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.32721875000001,"end":240.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.88784375,"end":241.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.63034375,"end":243.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.39346875,"end":247.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.70096875000002,"end":252.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.22346875000002,"end":254.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.26534375000003,"end":257.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.97784375000003,"end":260.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.86346875000004,"end":264.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.08221875000004,"end":267.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.28846875,"end":270.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.06034375,"end":272.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.84909375,"end":275.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.10596875000005,"end":277.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.16471875,"end":288.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.47096875,"end":292.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.39846875,"end":297.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.33034375,"end":299.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.76471875000004,"end":301.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.14409375,"end":303.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.18596875000003,"end":305.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.95346875,"end":308.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.50596875,"end":311.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.06221875,"end":314.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.04909375,"end":317.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.78721875,"end":319.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.99346875000003,"end":321.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.69784375,"end":323.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.65534375000004,"end":326.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.18221875,"end":331.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.27846875,"end":334.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.94471875000005,"end":338.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.77971875000003,"end":340.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.88034375,"end":344.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.56346875,"end":346.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.95971875000004,"end":348.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.19596875,"end":348.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.88784375,"end":348.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.90471875000003,"end":348.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.97221875,"end":349.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.40659375,"end":351.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.67221875,"end":381.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.51596875,"end":381.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.91221875,"end":381.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.92909375000005,"end":389.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.94596875,"end":382.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.11471875,"end":382.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.82221875000005,"end":399.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.73721875,"end":398.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.98971875,"end":404.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.45284375,"end":407.17409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.28346875000005,"end":410.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.51534375,"end":410.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.57846875,"end":412.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.56971875000005,"end":413.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.27846875,"end":415.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.05034375,"end":417.72096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.96971875,"end":420.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.61909375000005,"end":422.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.09971875,"end":426.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.66034375000004,"end":428.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.39846875,"end":432.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.84096875,"end":438.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.97909375,"end":455.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.99846875000003,"end":463.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.74034375,"end":456.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.68409375000005,"end":469.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.35409375,"end":471.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.27784375000005,"end":472.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.34534375000004,"end":473.10471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.58,"end":34.667,"text":"謝謝請外交部林部長請林部長是謝謝委員好部長辛苦了這個駐美代表大概是屬於這個部長部長級的大使因為這個對美關係是我國對外關係中重中之重核心所以這個駐美代表"},{"start":35.962,"end":63.641,"text":"人選他的人格特質他的能力他在華府的影響力都要得到大家的肯定所以我長期觀察住民代表人選有幾項特質就是第一個要低調個人事情要低調當然為了這個台美關係的一定要是全力去推動或者捍衛也好"},{"start":64.98,"end":92.65,"text":"那對私人的一定要都很低調做事情一定要很謹慎要很謹慎又洞見觀瞻不只是駐美大使或是駐美代表其他的這個住處的代表或是大使都要有這種特質所以你在遴選這個外館的這個館長或者是大使的時候要特別注意他們的人格特質太高調不太適合"},{"start":94.679,"end":120.793,"text":"所以為什麼會有這些事件出來會有這些批評的聲音或質疑的聲音出來部長您的看法是怎麼樣每一個人都有他的風格當然對外交上面大家都知道外交官具備一些條件能夠代表國家但是對內怎麼去領導"},{"start":124.679,"end":148.785,"text":"讓同盟有士氣發揮團隊的戰力這個也是另外一個大使很重要的一個任務但我覺得納悶跟困惑是這個蕭副總統擔任駐美大使三年期間也沒什麼聽說這個關社要換新或者是要添購什麼物品"},{"start":149.685,"end":164.183,"text":"或者是這個公務車不當使用這種狀況甚至歷任的館長歷任的駐美代表好像也比較少這種聲音所以您了解的狀況是怎麼樣報告寫出來了嗎"},{"start":166.991,"end":179.289,"text":"我們在初步都有就是不管電報啦或者是電話我們當然知道大概就是媒體報導的那個事情所以做了一些說明可是因為這個"},{"start":180.595,"end":201.462,"text":"有可能是內部的同仁他有一些不滿的意見那把一些資料就是傳出去所以這個部分就涉及到外管內部的事情如果他說的是屬實那當然對這是沒有錯我們就事論事但是個人的部分我們當然誇大那當然這個你要以正視聽嘛"},{"start":202.902,"end":228.403,"text":"所以這個駐美代表的這個地位他的重要性這個你也知道是屬於部長級的所以大家這個會用放大鏡來檢視所以一言一行都非常重要不管是公理或者私生活都非常的重要所以這個外交系統一定要知人善任因為這個在華府市前線中的前線"},{"start":230.376,"end":257.123,"text":"有前線的指揮官前線的將領被質疑你要怎麼樣領兵作戰你要怎麼衝鋒陷陣你要怎麼領導這個相關的聯合國相關組織都是駐美代表主要的任務嘛如果你個人的問題會困擾你會形成你工作上的障礙會形成你推動台美關係"},{"start":259.022,"end":267.381,"text":"的一些阻礙的話可能這個部長你要思考一下這個重要性不能以私害公啊"},{"start":269.326,"end":291.634,"text":"台美關係應該是你個人的事都曉得台美關係才是這個國家的這個大政它是國家利益之所在你國家利益你沒有去思考你應該每天在思考不是說你的床墊怎麼樣你的沙發怎樣你要每天去思考說怎麼樣是分分秒秒時時刻刻日日月月去推動這個精進台美關係"},{"start":294.474,"end":310.903,"text":"所以我是看到這個報導或相關的評論是有點擔心那麼重要的位置前面前方的將領領導同意也好你說這個是內部問題就代表領導同意有問題你如果前軍作戰你這個指揮官出現這種領導同意的問題那你將士怎麼扶你"},{"start":324.707,"end":324.727,"text":"當然﹖"},{"start":350.512,"end":367.216,"text":"怎麼樣去提高同仁工作的士氣發揮更大的團隊的戰力這個是任何一個主管尤其是在外管的大使他當然負完全的領導跟他的責任"},{"start":370.077,"end":389.547,"text":"那我覺得在對外上面我們就是在華埔的我們的代表處確實是發揮很好的功能在台美關係不斷的在提升中但是因為內部的有一些怎麼樣去激勵同仁的士氣然後能夠讓這些有一些"},{"start":391.265,"end":420.194,"text":"不平的聲音也能夠妥善的來解決這也是領導者要做的你位置越高職位越重要你權力越大就要更謙卑就要像一個修行者一樣修行你知道嗎心要靜你如果心若這個不靜心若如果不正"},{"start":421.807,"end":438.073,"text":"邪魔就入所以你位置越高權力越大你會更孤獨因為你就像一個修行者一樣每天砥礪自己你的所有的這個每天每天思念的思考的思慮的都是國家利益"},{"start":440.069,"end":469.653,"text":"是因為領導風格有一些雖然是願景領導有些行動領導有些是服務領導所以領導怎麼樣把幫忙的同仁都當作貴人來激勵士氣發揮這個更大的效果我對一大使沒有任何偏見我只是就事論事一個位置那麼重要就好像這個你組長是台美關係國家利益所以你要用修行者的態度去很謹慎的說每一句話做每一件事情"},{"start":471.007,"end":471.249,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154382","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154382","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c6568fab0302e7dca4b539dbd63c1cc91ef8091c70453fc49e34f055aa2fbdc105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:44:46 - 11:52:22","影片長度":"00:07:36","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:44:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:52:22+08:00","duration":456,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":665,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時44分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長午安。"],["林部長佳龍：委員午安。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，您過去擔任過無任所大使，負責數位新南向的業務，所以我相信部長你一定知道，在所謂的官方組織以外，其實有非常多的軟實力可以幫助臺灣跟國際接軌，而且甚至是比較有可能突破所謂中國強大封鎖的武器。以上的論述您認同嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：認同。"],["陳委員培瑜：那我今天就來跟部長分享兩個部分，一個是我過去的工作專長，就是文化出版。在昨天有一個好消息跟部長您分享，首爾國際書展在昨天宣布臺灣成為2025年首爾國際書展的主題國。主題國代表什麼意思？臺灣過往在全世界只有三次成為別的國家國際書展的主題國，分別是07年在曼谷、18年在曼谷、12年在法國的安古蘭國際漫畫節。也就是說，臺灣一旦有機會成為所謂國際書展的主題國，我們相對的文化外交這件事情的可能性就會變高。以上部長您認同嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：非常認同。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。副總統前兩天才接見文化奧運國家隊，送他們出國，副總統說：經濟讓國家強大，文化讓國家偉大。所以雖然書展的主管機關是文化部，但是在明年首爾國際書展來到之前，文化部有沒有機會跟外交部一起來討論，我們如何讓首爾國際書展上的臺灣主題國這件事情，可以在文化面向上有更大的國家戰力來展示出臺灣文化的部分，部長，你覺得有沒有機會外交部跟文化部來合作？"],["林部長佳龍：一定的，因為我們總合外交，部部都是外交部，尤其書展，這是一個文化軟實力……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯！"],["林部長佳龍：所以外交部還有外館會全力參與來辦好書展。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我們也會請文化部積極的跟外交部一起來開會討論，我們辦公室也會持續追蹤，謝謝部長的承諾。","接下來看一下運動外交的部分。我屢次跟外交部討論運動外交是一個非常重要的部分，連賴清德總統接見劉柏君時，他也是這一屆的不分區立委，甚至賴總統自己都說，劉柏君的成就是他做不到的，因為他促成了非常非常多的事情。所以部長，我相信您對於運動外交應該也是支持的，對嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，這也是總合外交很重要的一部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們來分享一些很棒的故事。這兩天美國在台協會AIT才分享了一篇臉書，就在昨天才分享，劉柏君找了5個有足球經驗的女孩，而且他們長期在臺灣，把英文都準備好了，送到美國去跟8個不同國家的少女透過運動交流，真正意義上達到了把運動作為國際語言，用運動做朋友。","另外，在去年10月，法國在臺協會的經費一樣跟劉柏君合辦了國際女孩日的活動，在這個活動上，連我自己都有去參加，玩了非常多有意義的活動跟遊戲，而裡面要談的就是巴黎奧運。所以在這個活動上，孩子們認識了法國，認識了奧運，認識了女孩在運動上的意義。這是兩個故事。","第三個故事是2019年，在畫面的最左邊有一個穿紫色T恤的是我們現在的內政部長劉世芳部長，當年澳大利亞國家足球隊來臺灣參加活動的時候，甚至他們促成跟高雄的球隊做交流，這個也是一種很棒的運動外交，而且是落地在臺灣。接下來，劉柏君他們的臺灣運動好事協會甚至在臺灣發起球具、球衣的捐募，然後送到巴基斯坦去，這也是一個很棒的運動外交實例。","為什麼要分享這麼多的案子？我想要跟部長說的還包含我手上的這一本書，我希望我可以送給部長，但我不行，因為我只有這一本，這本書名叫做Title IX，美國有一個法案叫Title IX，就是他們在國家相關預算上，必須要讓男生跟女生的相關預算分配是平等的。這本書裡面介紹了9個非常重要的女性故事，其中有一個，部長，我翻給你看，就是臺灣的劉柏君，被寫進美國國務院出版支持計劃裡面的出版品，介紹劉柏君作為全世界第一個女性運動員裁判的故事。","部長，我分享了這麼多，我想要問一下部長，外交部實質上還可以做更多哪些事情？因為我的時間有限，是不是可以拜託部長，如果您也支持所謂的運動外交，有沒有機會由外交部主責，在三個月內成立運動外交推動小組？這個小組裡面除了有外交部的成員跟相關的運動學者專家，還有更多的民間實務工作者，可不可以一起跟外交部討論來具體匡列預算，並且研擬相關運動外交執行方案？"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員寶貴的意見，我們會來研究。但是因為總統的政見也有要提高運動、體育的部分，不管是它的部會還有預算。運動強調公平競爭參與還有和平，尤其像奧運，它會有外交的效益，但是如果用運動外交，因為我們在國際上的外交處境比較特別，有時候運動的效果是最大的外交，但如果用外交的方式去推運動，也可能會有政治上，就是正反的啦！所以怎麼樣去組成這個……"],["陳委員培瑜：也就是說，部長，您覺得……"],["林部長佳龍：是在外交部還是說行政院還是跨部會？我們來研究一下。"],["陳委員培瑜：聽起來部長您是支持的，只是你要提醒我的是另外一個事情，就是如果用外交部的力量、外交部的預算，甚至是外交部表明就成立這個小組，搞不好會受到更多的阻礙，您是這個意思嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對。但是我們的無任所大使，目前我們也期待有運動專長的人能夠推動運動外交，這也是一個方法。但是這個小組要怎麼樣籌組、要放在哪個層級、哪些單位、重點工作在哪裡？外交部很願意來參與跟推動。"],["陳委員培瑜：那是不是我們辦公室之後可以積極的找外交部來討論？因為我們剛剛分享了這麼多案例，我們其實有非常多民間專家學者、好朋友、實務上的工作者，他們也許可以提供更具體的經驗讓外交部作為參考。"],["林部長佳龍：是，但我們可能要跟行政院……就是說整體，因為它涉及到跨部會，尤其是很多涉及到教育部、文化部，還有……"],["陳委員培瑜：還有未來要升格的體育部，對不對？我猜部長要說的是這個。"],["林部長佳龍：對，體育部，所以我們的職權怎麼樣能夠分工合作？我們會積極來推動外交。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們也期待，如果要提報給行政院會，是不是有機會在一個月內也給我們相關的報告？就是跟院會那邊討論的進度跟可能性。有機會嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們來跟院本部來……"],["陳委員培瑜：好。再來就是2028的洛杉磯奧運即將要……"],["主席：不好意思，因為時間的關係。"],["陳委員培瑜：不好意思，最後一個關於2028奧運的部分，相關的主題設計連動跟可能性的促進民間合作部分，也拜託外交部一併考慮跟討論，好嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長，謝謝主席，不好意思。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請鄭天財委員。鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","請邱志偉委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.679718750000001,"end":8.586593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.109718750000003,"end":9.852218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.606593750000002,"end":37.172843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.05784375,"end":17.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.172843750000006,"end":37.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.86471875,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.94909375,"end":38.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.05034375,"end":114.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.97971875,"end":112.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.64596875000001,"end":126.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.49346875,"end":118.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.12534375000001,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.42471875,"end":156.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.95596875,"end":244.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.46534375000002,"end":263.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.92221875,"end":264.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.00221875,"end":265.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.48721875,"end":267.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.15784375000004,"end":269.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.79471875,"end":308.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.18096875000003,"end":312.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.01159375000003,"end":324.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.56659375000004,"end":327.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.79409375,"end":332.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.17721875,"end":334.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.01221875000005,"end":337.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.03284375000004,"end":350.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.99721875,"end":354.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.97159375,"end":356.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.69284375,"end":355.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.40159375,"end":360.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.57846875,"end":358.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.48971875,"end":359.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.54846875000004,"end":360.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.59909375,"end":372.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.46221875000003,"end":395.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.33534375000005,"end":374.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.41346875000005,"end":387.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.22284375000004,"end":394.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.85096875000005,"end":395.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.88471875000005,"end":408.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.94596875,"end":419.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.22284375000004,"end":422.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.62346875000003,"end":428.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.06159375000004,"end":434.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.68034375,"end":439.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.78159375,"end":435.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.71784375000004,"end":455.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.59096875,"end":439.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.41346875000005,"end":443.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.19221875000005,"end":455.79096875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.701,"end":6.721,"text":"請部長"},{"start":15.929,"end":36.725,"text":"部長你過去擔任過無認所大使負責數位新南向的業務所以我相信部長你一定知道在所謂的官方組織以外其實有非常多的軟實力可以幫助台灣跟國際接軌而且甚至是比較有可能突破所謂中國強大封鎖的武器以上的論述您認同嗎?認同"},{"start":38.226,"end":50.26,"text":"那我今天就來跟部長分享兩個部分一個是我過去的工作專長就是文化出版在昨天有個好消息跟部長您分享首爾國際書展在昨天宣布台灣成為2025年首爾國際書展的主題國"},{"start":54.565,"end":79.333,"text":"主題國代表什麼意思?臺灣過往在全世界只有三次成為別的國家國際書展的主題國分別是07年在曼谷18年在曼谷12年在法國的安古蘭國際漫畫節也就是說臺灣一旦有機會成為所謂國際書展的主題國我們相對的文化外交這件事情的可能性就會變高以上部長您認同嗎?"},{"start":80.473,"end":85.134,"text":"非常認同副總統前兩天才接見文化奧運國家隊送他們出國副總統說經濟讓國家強大文化讓國家偉大所以雖然書展的主管機關是文化部但是有沒有機會在明年首爾國際書展來到之前文化部有沒有機會跟外交部一起來討論我們如何讓首爾國際書展上的臺灣主題國這件事情"},{"start":104.738,"end":108,"text":"部長你覺得有沒有機會外交部跟文化部來合作?一定的,因為我們總和外交部部都是外交部尤其書展這是一個文化軟實力"},{"start":121.647,"end":122.308,"text":"外交部和外管會全力參與,辦好事項"},{"start":142.449,"end":143.53,"text":"這兩天美國AIT在台協會才分享了一篇臉書就在昨天才分享"},{"start":165.331,"end":178.877,"text":"劉柏鈞他們找了5個有足球經驗的女孩而且他們長期在台灣把英文都準備好了送到美國去跟8個不同國家的少女透過運動交流真正意義上達到了把運動作為國際語言用運動做朋友好往下看"},{"start":182.839,"end":201.025,"text":"另外法國在台協會在去年的10月法國在台協會的經費一樣跟劉伯鈞合辦了國際女孩日的活動在這個活動上連我自己都有去參加玩了非常多有意義的活動跟遊戲而裡面要談的就是巴黎奧運所以在這個活動上孩子們認識了法國認識了奧運認識了女孩在運動上的意義這是兩個故事到第三個故事是2019年"},{"start":208.627,"end":225.53,"text":"在畫面的最左邊有一個穿紫色T恤這個是我們現在的內政部長劉世芳部長當年澳大利亞國家足球隊到台灣來參加活動的時候甚至他們促成跟高雄的球隊做交流這個也是一種很棒的運動外交而且是落地在台灣接下來"},{"start":226.371,"end":247.237,"text":"接下來劉伯鈞他們的臺灣運動好事協會甚至在臺灣發起求聚求醫的捐募然後送到巴基斯坦去這也是一個很棒的運動外交實力為什麼要分享這麼多的案子我想要跟部長說的是還包含我手上有一本書我希望我可以送給部長但我不行因為我只有這一本"},{"start":247.957,"end":265.201,"text":"這本叫做是Title IX他們美國有一個法案叫TitleIX就是他們在國家相關預算上必須要讓男生跟女生的相關預算分配是平等的那這本書裡面呢介紹了九個非常重要的女性的故事其中有一個部長翻給你看是就是我們"},{"start":268.548,"end":285.275,"text":"臺灣的劉伯鈞被寫進美國國務院出版支持的計畫裡面出版品介紹劉伯鈞作為全世界第一個女性運動員裁判的故事部長分享了這麼多我想問一下部長我們外交部實質上還可以做更多哪些事情我們來看下一頁"},{"start":285.815,"end":306.59,"text":"因為我時間有限是不是可以拜託部長如果您也支持所謂的運動外交有沒有機會由外交部組織在3個月內成立運動外交推動小組這裡面的小組除了有外交部的成員跟相關的運動學者專家還有更多的民間實務工作者可不可以一起跟外交部討論來具體匡列預算並且嚴寧相關運動外交執行方案很謝謝委員寶貴的意見我們要研究但是說"},{"start":313.137,"end":337.177,"text":"因為總統的政見也有要提高運動體育的這個不管它的這個部會的這個還有預算那運動是強調公平競爭參與還有和平尤其像奧運但是它會有外交的效益但是如果用運動外交"},{"start":339.107,"end":357.16,"text":"有時候因為外交我們在國際上的處境比較特別有時候運動的效果是最大的外交但是如果用外交的方式去推運動也可能會有政治上就是正反的啦所以怎麼樣去組成這個是在外交部還是說行政院"},{"start":357.58,"end":357.76,"text":"您是這個意思嗎?"},{"start":373.478,"end":395.553,"text":"無論所大使我們也期待外交運動專長的人能夠在推動運動外交這也是一個方法但是這個小組怎麼樣籌組放在哪個層級然後哪些單位重點工作在哪裡我想我們外交部很願意來參與跟推動"},{"start":395.913,"end":407.774,"text":"那是不是我們辦公室之後可以積極的找外交部來討論因為我想我們剛剛分享了這麼多案例我們其實有非常多民間專家學者好朋友實務上的工作者他們也許可以提供更具體的經驗讓外交部作為參考"},{"start":409.373,"end":433.742,"text":"但我們可能要跟行政院在就是說整體因為他涉及到跨部會尤其是很多是要教育部、文化部還有未來要升格的體育部我猜部長您要說是怎樣所以我們的職權怎麼樣能夠分工合作那好如果要提報給行政院會是不是有機會在一個月內也跟我們相關的報告就是跟院會那邊討論的進度跟可能性"},{"start":434.707,"end":437.77,"text":"最後一個關於2028奧運的部分相關的主題設計聯動跟可能性的促進民間合作部分也拜託外交部這邊一併考慮跟討論好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"154381","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154381","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c3c2a1e8d3673aa084b539dbd63c1cc91ef8091c70453fc49749a260809b8290f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:33:02 - 11:44:06","影片長度":"00:11:04","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:33:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:44:06+08:00","duration":664,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時33分）請林部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，今天我們委員會討論的主題，關於臺灣加入國際組織這上面的一些進度，大家很關心。我們知道江啟臣副院長在5月底也代表韓國瑜院長率團到日內瓦爭取參與WHA，隨團的包括朝野委員在內，我們真的給予這一團非常非常大的肯定，因為也有很多成果。可是我們看到6月21日北京公布了新的分裂國家的規定，其中把推動臺灣加入國際組織也納入了所謂分裂國家的規定裡面，甚至列為所謂懲戒的臺獨分子。當然我們後來看到臺辦其實也說了，它其實針對的只是極少數的臺獨分子，那如果綜合把這幾個資訊兜起來，我們就有一點替江啟臣副院長擔心了，看起來江副院長可能現在是北京新的認知下面的極少數臺獨分子。可是接下來江副院長還是肩負著很多國會外交的任務，而現在看到在新的分裂國家規定裡面有提到，甚至要判死刑，還可以缺席審判。那部長，對於江副院長接下來要扮演這麼多的國會外交的任務，有沒有什麼保護他的措施？"],["林部長佳龍：我們會請外館對於我們國人，尤其到國外涉及到針對是不是會……中共用所謂臺獨……"],["洪委員申翰：極少數臺獨分子，因為它現在做了一個定義。"],["林部長佳龍：因為它選擇性地，所以都有這個風險，我們也都要做好預防和因應。"],["洪委員申翰：我們是希望外交部，針對接下來不管是國會外交上面，尤其是我覺得像院長、副院長動見觀瞻，接下來他們還會再推動臺灣很多加入國際組織的任務，我相信我們的院長、副院長也不會因此就放棄了這些工作，可是這都會被列入中共所謂的極少數臺獨分子，甚至要懲戒的範疇裡面，我們希望外交部跟國安單位也可以給予他們多一點的保護。","接下來，剛剛其實有幾位委員也有問到關於民主基金會的問題，我想民主基金會的問題我們從2月討論到現在，其實現在大家都很清楚，過去在野黨一直說有沒有要卡韓院長的問題，其實我們一直說，從執政黨的角度來講，從來都沒有所謂卡韓院長的選項。那剛剛有很多委員問有沒有要卡韓院長提出來的人選，部長，我們有要卡韓院長所提名的人選的意思嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，民主基金會是一個財團法人，它有組織章程，所以都是依章程來辦事，就是尊重董事會對人事的決定。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你也是民主基金會的當然董事，那你現在是副董事長？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["洪委員申翰：那我要說，當然我們沒有必要去卡任何潛在可能是執行長的人選，我們這個態度是很清楚的。但我想再一次的重申，按照章程來說，董事長有提名權，現在的董事長就是韓國瑜院長，有提名權，當然董事會會有所謂的同意權。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["洪委員申翰：這個同意權裡面我覺得很關鍵的事情，我還是要說一次，關於民主基金會的人事問題是一個責任政治的問題，它不是一個政黨之間怎麼分贓的問題，所以我們很希望在民主基金會的議題上面，我們是用朝野合作來去思考這個問題。就像國會議長其實是當然董事，但我們也遵循慣例，所以國會議長現在是董事長，那這部分我們給予非常非常大的尊重跟尊敬。但同時我覺得一個重點，我一直在強調，關於民主基金會的問題，重點是這個執行長的人選能不能夠貫徹總統的外交策略方針的問題。而總統在國際上面也很清楚把臺灣跟中國的定位，其實我們也說得很清楚，就是中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬，我們真的不希望到時候……其實執行長也要來備詢，結果未來執行長在這邊跟外交部長一起備詢的時候，一個主張中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬，另外一個主張九二共識一個中國。這兩個主張假如互相扞格，其實絕對會對我們的外交政策有非常非常大的影響，部長同意嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：是，因為其實所謂的民主基金會是廣義的二軌外交，那就是有一軌外交嘛！一軌外交就是政府，尤其是外交部的外交嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["林部長佳龍：如果二軌外交跟一軌外交打架的話，這不但沒有幫忙一軌外交，而且是雙頭馬車。我沒有針對個人，我是說如果如同剛剛委員所提的，對於總統的外交政策，因為他要負全責嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["林部長佳龍：不支持的話，那這個當然就……委員上次也質詢過，這個會是一個涉及到董事會在行使同意權的時候所關切的問題。"],["洪委員申翰：是，所以我要說的是，我們要表達很清楚，我們絕對沒有想要去卡潛在任何可能的執行長人選，絕對沒有，但其實我們希望要求的事情就是讓一軌外交跟二軌外交的方針跟原則能夠互相吻合，不會互相扞格，我覺得這是一個很重要的原則。"],["林部長佳龍：對，我補充一下。一軌、二軌都要朝同一個方向，到時候才不會雙頭馬車，這是很重要的。"],["洪委員申翰：對，甚至我們大家都知道，現在中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬，其實是得到臺灣主流社會認可的，所以任何一個要來擔任執行長的人選，我認為他都要能夠認同跟貫徹這個原則，我覺得這是我們唯一的……至少是我個人唯一的要求。"],["林部長佳龍：因為委員也是董事嘛！所以在董事會也曾經表達過意見，當然因為……"],["洪委員申翰：我不是董事、我不是董事、我不是董事，有其他的董事，但我說我作為一個國會議員、外交及國防委員會的委員，我們覺得這是一個責任政治的問題，因為所有的外交成果最後都還是總統要負責，這是為什麼大家一直說執行長的人選要尊重總統最重要的原因。尊重總統不是因為總統比較大，是因為總統要為外交政策負責，我覺得這個原則，希望外交部包括部長，我們這邊要把握。我真的不樂見到時候看到兩位，一個部長、一個執行長到這邊備詢的時候，結果講出互相打架的話，那真的大家不知道該怎麼辦。這部分還是希望部長能夠做出這樣的要求，而且我覺得這也是一個合理的要求。以上，好不好？部長。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["洪委員申翰：我接下來有幾個事情想要來跟部長講，其實部長今天有講到跨境鎮壓的問題，我們之前對於跨境鎮壓的問題其實也很關注，相關的報告還是要請部長提供給我們。另外，在你上任之前，之前我質詢吳部長的時候，其實他有答應過我們，因為我們有旅居丹麥的國人被標記為中國公民的問題，那我當時有請他針對我們國人到底會有什麼生活的影響，希望提交報告給我們，但目前這個報告其實還沒有給我們。","第二個事情，我在當時其實有請外交部去盤點，哪些國家把我國居留證標記為中國或無國籍的統計資料，我們現在收到外交部的資料，但坦白說我們對內容有點失望，我們現在看到外交部提供的資料，裡面只有12個國家將我國的居留標記為中國或無國籍，但就我們所知，明明冰島其實在2016年的時候也把我們臺灣人的居留證標記為中國籍，可是在外交部的資料卻沒有看到冰島，所以我們其實有一點懷疑現在外交部提供的盤點資料是不是足夠完整。","那這一次我要跟部長報告，我的時間可能有限了，部長，我們其實也要求外交部去盤點，如果各國將我國的居留證標記為中國跟無國籍的時候，可能對我們自己的國人會產生的生活影響，可是我們看到很多都被外交部標記為無具體影響，說實在我真的不相信。我真的不相信，假設別的國家把我們自己的僑民標註為中國籍或者是無國籍，對他的生活、對他的情境毫無具體影響，我真的不相信。可是我們在很多部分都看到你們說無具體影響，所以我自己感覺外交部是不是對於這個嚴肅的問題不夠重視，所以不只是資料的盤點，也包括這些相關分析的資料都有未盡之處。這部分還是希望林部長是不是可以再回去督導一下，把這些事情弄清楚，因為這是有很多在其他國家遇到類似問題的人跟我們反映的，覺得好像我們部分的駐處在協助他們的時候不夠積極。"],["林部長佳龍：因為隨著中國就是所謂跨境的鎮壓，還有對於所謂的懲治臺獨分子，以及它的這種所謂長臂的管轄等等，越加的有壓迫性，我們當然要對於用字還有涉及到這些可能有國籍意涵的，我們在外交上要去捍衛我們國人的權益。"],["洪委員申翰：沒錯，因為中國現在他去壓迫這些國家打壓我們，說臺灣人一定要改成中國籍或無國籍，這其實是一件非常重要的大事，而且非常嚴重的影響到我們國人的權益。"],["林部長佳龍：對，因為它有風險，而且……"],["洪委員申翰：對，但外交部現在都跟我說，外交部現在的報告都說，沒有聽說國人生活受影響。"],["林部長佳龍：我們要瞭解這個趨勢，因為有可能會因為中共的……"],["洪委員申翰：我想這部分就再請部長回去督導一下，好不好？我希望能夠改善，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["洪委員申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。這個部分之前也有提過，外交部如果通通沒有能力作為，這樣對我們外交也是一個很大的打擊。剛剛也有特別提到，我想在這裡補充一點，韓國瑜院長所提名的這個人選，其實在蔡政府時期他擔任過臺灣民主基金會的副執行長，這個部分我想他的背景資料也可以提供給大家。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請麥玉珍、麥玉珍、麥玉珍委員不在。","請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.78596875,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.71409375,"end":3.5072187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.840343750000001,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.446593750000002,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.825343750000002,"end":30.675968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.96284375,"end":31.739093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.05971875,"end":47.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.399093750000006,"end":51.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.48284375,"end":53.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.570968750000006,"end":70.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.72034375,"end":72.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.84659375000001,"end":74.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.68596875,"end":85.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.52784375,"end":88.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.29971875000001,"end":91.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.45971875000001,"end":93.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.02034375000001,"end":98.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.45846875000001,"end":103.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.13284375,"end":111.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.31721875000001,"end":112.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.24534375,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.57409375,"end":118.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.21909375000001,"end":121.75034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.98659375000001,"end":124.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.63159375000001,"end":126.17159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.01534375000001,"end":134.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.55846875,"end":140.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.04284375,"end":143.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.74284375000002,"end":147.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.72159375,"end":144.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.97409375,"end":168.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.28721875000002,"end":182.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.96846875,"end":200.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.33721875,"end":207.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.08284375000002,"end":209.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.41159375,"end":211.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.33971875,"end":222.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.18596875,"end":263.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.04034375000003,"end":270.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.38534375,"end":274.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.60409375,"end":275.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.39721875000004,"end":276.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.79784375,"end":280.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.93221875,"end":283.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.13846875,"end":292.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.26784375,"end":303.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.30409375,"end":305.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.48096875000005,"end":307.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.84346875,"end":310.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.74596875000003,"end":315.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.74534375,"end":322.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.11534375,"end":330.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.91596875000005,"end":340.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.46784375000004,"end":336.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.33221875000004,"end":340.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.70346875,"end":343.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.63971875000004,"end":345.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.93471875,"end":354.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.69284375,"end":362.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.91096875,"end":367.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.85534375000003,"end":373.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.11596875000004,"end":377.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.45721875000004,"end":389.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.03346875,"end":397.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.34096875,"end":392.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.69909375000003,"end":403.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.33909375,"end":413.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.97471875,"end":414.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.19409375000004,"end":415.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.22784375000003,"end":419.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.76721875000004,"end":421.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.39971875000003,"end":421.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.48409375,"end":439.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.50471875000005,"end":425.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.01284375,"end":456.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.27596875,"end":482.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.75721875000005,"end":489.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.99659375000005,"end":490.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.75596875,"end":499.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.83034375000005,"end":503.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.23909375000005,"end":521.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.56971875,"end":541.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.3428437499999,"end":549.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.3628437500001,"end":559.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.55534375,"end":561.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.1415937500001,"end":563.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.60534375,"end":564.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.2040937500001,"end":570.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.7097187500001,"end":571.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.5322187500001,"end":574.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.86096875,"end":578.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.7253437500001,"end":579.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.94034375,"end":585.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.01534375,"end":591.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.4109687499999,"end":605.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.23159375,"end":606.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.24846875,"end":607.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.90221875,"end":618.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.34346875,"end":632.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.0390937500001,"end":623.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.83096875,"end":638.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.6272187500001,"end":652.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.0522187500001,"end":648.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.7222187500001,"end":652.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.6840937500001,"end":657.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.12659375,"end":663.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.29096875,"end":660.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.8684687500001,"end":663.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.31971875,"end":663.33659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.006,"end":18.657,"text":"請林部長請部長部長我們今天委員會討論的主題當然關於這個臺灣加入這個國際組織那這上面一些進度那大家很多的關心"},{"start":19.918,"end":46.656,"text":"那我們也知道其實這個我們江啟臣副院長其實在5月底的時候其實也率團代表韓國瑜院長那到日內瓦那參與這個或爭取參與WHA那其實這個水團裡面朝野的委員其實也在裡面那我們真的也給予這個這一團非常非常大的肯定因為也很多的成果"},{"start":47.626,"end":71.84,"text":"可是我們今天也看到在6月21號的時候其實北京公佈了這個新的分裂國家的規定那其中這分裂國家的規定裡面也把推動台灣加入國際組織也納入了所謂分裂國家的規定裡面甚至是列為所謂的懲戒這個台獨份子"},{"start":73.598,"end":98.455,"text":"當然我們後來看到這個台辦其實也說了他其實針對的只是極少數的台獨分子那如果把這幾個綜合資訊兜起來的時候我們就有一點替我們的江啟臣副院長擔心了看起來江副院長可能現在是北京新的認知下面的極少數的台獨分子"},{"start":99.52,"end":124.659,"text":"那可是接下來江副院長他還是肩負著很多國會外交的任務啊可是現在看到在新的分裂國家規定裡面有講到甚至要判死刑還可以缺席審判那部長我們有沒有對於我們江副院長接下來要扮演這麼多的國際外交的國會外交的任務上面有沒有什麼保護他的措施我們會"},{"start":127.762,"end":147.295,"text":"請外館對於我們國人尤其到國外這個涉及到就是針對是不是會中共用這個所謂台獨幾少數台獨分子因為他現在做了一個定義選擇性的所以都有這個風險我們也都要做好這個預防跟因應"},{"start":148.298,"end":168.494,"text":"我們是希望這個外交部其實針對接下來不管是國會在交上面其實尤其是當然我覺得像院長副院長動見觀瞻接下來他們還會再推動台灣很多加入國際組織的任務我相信我們的院長副院長也不會因此就這個放棄了這些工作可是這都是會被列入中共"},{"start":169.375,"end":172.077,"text":"接下來我是要問剛剛其實有幾位委員其實有問到關於民主基金會的問題"},{"start":184.042,"end":210.711,"text":"我想其實民主基金會的問題我們從二月討論到現在其實現在大家都很清楚過去在黨一直說這個有沒有要卡韓院長的問題其實我們一直說從執政黨的角度從來都沒有所謂卡韓院長的選項那剛才有很多的委員問有沒有要卡什麼好像韓院長提出來的人選不然我們有要卡韓院長所提名的人選的意思嗎"},{"start":211.4,"end":221.721,"text":"沒有 因為其實民主基金會是一個財團法人他有組織章程是所以都是一章程來辦事嘛就是尊重董事會對人事的決定"},{"start":224.247,"end":250.961,"text":"我認為因為你也是民主基金會的當然董事那你現在是副董事長那我要說我其實覺得我們當然沒有必要去卡任何潛在可能是執行長的人選我覺得這個我們態度是很清楚的但我想再一次的重申因為當然按照章程來說這個董事長會有提名權那現在董事長就是韓國瑜院長有提名權那當然董事會會有所謂的同意權"},{"start":253.122,"end":268.336,"text":"這個同意權裡面我覺得很關鍵的事情我還要再說一次關於民主基金會的人事問題是一個責任政治的問題它不是一個政黨之間怎麼分贓的問題所以我們很希望在民主基金會的議題上面我們是用朝野合作來去思考這個問題"},{"start":269.577,"end":292.213,"text":"就像這個國會議長其實是當然董事但我們也遵循慣例所以國會議長現在是董事長那這部分我們給予非常非常大的尊重跟尊敬但同時我覺得一個重點我一直在強調關於民主基金會問題重點是他這個執行長的人選能不能夠貫徹總統的外交策略方針的問題"},{"start":293.354,"end":322.33,"text":"而總統在我們國際上面也很清楚把台灣跟中國的定位其實我們也說得很清楚就是中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬我們真的不希望到時候其實執行長也要來備詢結果未來執行長在這邊備詢跟外交部長一起備詢的時候一個主張中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬另外一個主張九二共是一個中國"},{"start":324.662,"end":342.9,"text":"這兩個主張假如互相漢革其實絕對會是對我們外交政策非常非常大的影響部長同意嗎是因為齁其實所謂民主機會是廣義的惡鬼外交那就是有一鬼外交嘛一鬼外交就是政府尤其外交部的外交嘛阿如果惡鬼外交跟一鬼外交打架的話"},{"start":343.701,"end":360.033,"text":"那這不但沒有幫忙一軌外交而且是雙頭馬車我沒有真的個人我是說如果如同剛剛委員所提的因為對於總統的外交政策因為他要負全責嘛那不支持的話那這個當然委員上次也質詢過這個會是一個"},{"start":363.035,"end":366.658,"text":"涉及到董事會在行使同意權的時候很關切的問題"},{"start":393.055,"end":394.936,"text":"我不是董事我不是董事我不是董事"},{"start":421.725,"end":438.867,"text":"對有其他董事但我說我作為一個國會議員在外交國防委員會的委員我做出我們覺得這是一個責任政治的問題因為這些所有的外交成果最後都還是總統要負責這是為什麼大家一直說執行長的人選要尊重總統最重要的原因這尊重總統不是因為只是總統比較大"},{"start":440.029,"end":440.189,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":457.355,"end":481.112,"text":"作出這樣的要求而且我覺得這也是一個合理的要求以上好不好這部長這部分部長我接下來有幾個事情是想要來跟部長講其實部長今天有講到跨境鎮壓的問題那我們之前這個其實對跨境鎮壓問題其實也很關注那相關的報告還是要請部長提供給我們那另外是之前在你上任之前在這個"},{"start":482.893,"end":499.486,"text":"之前的質詢吳部長其實有答應過我們其實因為我們有旅居丹麥的國人被標記為中國公民的問題那我當時有請他給予說我們到底國人會有什麼生活的影響希望提交給我們報告但目前這個報告其實還沒有給我們第二個事情是"},{"start":500.868,"end":520.706,"text":"我在當時其實有請外交部去盤點哪些國家把我國拘留證標記為中國或無國籍的統計資料但我們現在收到外交部的資料但坦白說內容我們有點失望我們現在看到外交部提供的資料裡面只有12個國家將我國的拘留標記為中國或無國籍但就我們所知明明冰島"},{"start":521.807,"end":541.532,"text":"其實在2016的時候也把我們台灣人的居留證把它標記為中國籍可是在外交部上面的資料卻沒有看到冰島所以我們其實有一點懷疑現在這個外交部提供的盤點的資料是不是足夠的完整那在這一次我要跟部長報告我時間可能有限了"},{"start":542.432,"end":564.588,"text":"不然我們其實也要求外交部去盤點如果各國將我國的居留證標記為中國跟無國籍的時候可能對我們自己的國人會產生的生活影響可是我們看到很多都被外交部標記為無具體影響說實在我真的不相信我真的不相信假設別的國家把我們自己的僑民"},{"start":573.631,"end":591.542,"text":"我真的不相信可是我們很多部分我們都看到你們說無具體影響所以我自己感覺外交部是不是對於這個問題這個嚴肅的問題不夠重視所以不只資料的盤點也包括這些相關的分析的資料都有未盡之處這部分還是希望"},{"start":592.463,"end":604.588,"text":"林部長是不是可以回去再督導一下把這件事情弄清楚因為這時候有很多我們自己在其他國家遇到類似問題的人他都跟我們反映覺得好像我們部分的住處在協助他們的時候不夠積極"},{"start":606.257,"end":634.487,"text":"因為隨著中國就是對這個所謂境外跨境的鎮壓還有對於所謂的懲治台獨分子他的這種所謂長臂的管轄等等的越加的這個有這個壓迫性我們當然要對於用字還有涉及到這些可能有國籍意涵的我們要去在外交上去捍衛我們國人的權益沒錯因為中國現在他的他現在去壓迫這些國家"},{"start":635.987,"end":637.207,"text":"我希望能夠改善好不好這部分謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154380","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154380","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726ccb256507be3c63bd21a3f23b3ad13ea2ef8091c70453fc4966c057cb154940df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:23:50 - 12:34:03","影片長度":"00:10:13","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T12:23:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T12:34:03+08:00","duration":613,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1186,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時24分）今天的發言時間是4加6分鐘，還是4加8分鐘？我都很按照時間秩序，時間到我就會很準時，因為怕會影響到下一個同仁的質詢權益。"],["主席：謝謝模範生。"],["邱委員志偉：時間到一直不下來、一直問，我在臺下，不是沒到，我已經到了，國會應該增加一個霸凌同僚罪、霸凌國會議員罪。"],["主席：請做詢答。"],["邱委員志偉：先請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，我聽了半天，一整個早上10個差不多有6個問你蛋的問題，蛋的問題趕快處理好，脫離這個戰場，不要讓農業部變成雞蛋部，蛋的問題要趕快處理好。"],["陳部長駿季：我也希望更快釐清。"],["邱委員志偉：如果有不對就改進，如果他們有不實的指控、不實的質詢，你們當然要反駁、義正嚴辭反駁，面對不實證據、不實論述，你們就要強烈反駁，對不對？你要瞭解為什麼蛋的問題會一直循環，是不是預測的機制有問題，過去十年蛋不是缺就是剩，缺剩、缺剩、缺剩一直循環，你的生產預測機制有沒有可能要優化一點？如果生產預測機制不好、不健全，預測就會失準，就會變成產銷失調，導致供應和需求永遠對不上。所以在生產預測機制是不是能夠根據過去的經驗運用大數據？現在不是有很多AI可以運用去預測該怎麼樣處理，不要每次產銷失調的時候就是補助，不是補助進口，就是補助淘汰寡產蛋雞，一直在循環，所以你要思考清楚到底問題出在哪裡，你們可以運用人工智慧（AI）去協助優化生產預測機制，避免預測機制失衡，部長，你的看法呢？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的建議，事實上，我們現在也在啟動，其實過去的調查有很多盲點，我們已經掌握過去年度每個月的需求量，目前還有一個重點，老母雞的淘汰是目前蛋場自己的調整機制，這些調整因為禽舍改善以後生產效率變高，但是有些蛋農並不瞭解生產效率提高，他還是把老母雞殺了，所以我們這次是利用獎勵的方式讓他加速淘汰，後續整個機制我們會再去分析。"],["邱委員志偉：你們要瞭解這個循環，不是剩就是缺這種狀況發生的原因在哪裡，你們要針對這些問題加以解決，並提出有效的方法。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會這樣子做，這次最主要是消費端的需求力拉不起來，拉不起來是因為它的價格沒有下降的時候……"],["邱委員志偉：拉不起來有沒有其他更有效的作法，你們應該去思考。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會再努力。"],["邱委員志偉：你們瞭解問題要提出政策解決問題，政府要會做事，政府是要解決問題，不是製造問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：今天的主題是農業移工政策改善，你們提出了精進作為，但是精進作為必須要有一個時間表，精進作為有兩個面向，第一個是增加人力供給，第二個是減省人力需求。供給面增加、需求面降低是你們的精進作為，你們要有時間表，第一個，你們上個禮拜跟相關的單位有結論，按照農業人力需求向勞動部提案申請增加農糧、畜牧產業的農業移工員額，勞動部有代表來嗎？"],["主席：請勞動部。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，這個什麼時候會執行？你們開完會……"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在的1萬2,000人預估到年底大概就會滿了，現在是八千多人，我們已經啟動這個評估。"],["邱委員志偉：劍及履及，已經有會議結論，你們要跟勞動部提案，什麼時候要提，提出多少員額？"],["陳部長駿季：勞動部有例行會議，我們在7月的時候就會提出去。"],["邱委員志偉：這些都要敘明清楚，讓所有有需求的單位瞭解，你們已經做了相關作為。另外，加強改善季節性缺工問題，很多農會都不知道移工跨區，移工可以跨區是跨區還是跨市？"],["陳部長駿季：跨縣市都可以。"],["邱委員志偉：有南工北調嗎？還是北工南調？"],["陳部長駿季：他會隨著收穫的季節，最主要是跨鄰近的縣市為主，因為牽涉到交通的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你要講清楚，推動外籍移工跨區試辦計畫上路了沒？媒合的有多少件數？"],["陳部長駿季：現在開始在引進移工了。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你要把這個作法讓所有的需求單位瞭解，讓他們瞭解可以跨區，不然很多政策雖然是立意良善，但是有需求的基層往往不瞭解我們有哪些有效的政策，所以他們不知道要怎麼申請。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這部分你們要加強宣導，跟相關的農事單位或者是農會組織、農場加強去宣導！"],["陳部長駿季：會！"],["邱委員志偉：所以很多政策就是你們缺乏宣傳啦！","有關本勞跟外勞的核配比，上上禮拜我開過記者會，農業缺工是一個存在已久的問題，但是你拿出來的對策並沒有辦法有效解決，如果能有效解決，就不會一直缺工嘛！對不對？這代表你們政策失靈！所以你未來要讓10人以下事業單位核配比跟一般農民團體相同，這部分什麼時候會上路？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在7月的會議當中會一併提出來。"],["邱委員志偉：所以要趕快，劍及履及！","然後你說減省人力需求，每一鄉鎮都要有農機Uber，什麼時候上路？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在已經開始推動了，預計4年之內會全部的一鄉鎮一Uber，但是2年……"],["邱委員志偉：一鄉鎮一Uber？"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是重大的產業區。"],["邱委員志偉：全國？"],["陳部長駿季：重要的產區裡面，一鄉鎮一Uber。"],["邱委員志偉：我以為你連臺北市信義區都要。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有、沒有，重要的農業生產區才有，不是全部。"],["邱委員志偉：你不要每鄉鎮都成立，應該是農業縣主要的……"],["陳部長駿季：主要的農業縣。"],["邱委員志偉：也不是農業縣所有的鄉鎮都需要，對不對？你要把這些區明列出來，包括高雄市、臺南市、屏東縣，有哪些鄉鎮有所謂的農機Uber、什麼時候可以上路、什麼時候可以讓農友共享農機，你要講清楚啊！"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：瞭解，然後呢？什麼時候上路？"],["陳部長駿季：我們這個政策才在兩、三個禮拜前確認，現在正在規劃每一區的東西，現在已經有15團了，所以我們會針對重要的產區去做。"],["邱委員志偉：擴大力道！有政策，要有效率，而且也要有效果！"],["陳部長駿季：是！"],["邱委員志偉：雙效合一，人民才有感。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：現在AI的產業會影響到農業相關系所的招生狀況嗎？比方說人文相關系所都受到影響，大家都往AI相關產業去就學，很多大學的招生都是往AI，會不會影響到農業相關系所的招生？"],["陳部長駿季：我想會有一些影響。"],["邱委員志偉：今年的狀況你們有沒有去瞭解？"],["陳部長駿季：我們曾經跟相關大學的老師討論，AI的部分可能……"],["邱委員志偉：你們就預測未來10年我們農業相關系所的招生下降比率、人數的比率，這個都要有10年期的計畫。"],["陳部長駿季：是！"],["邱委員志偉：按照這個變化，看看你們有哪些對策。","最後，我前天去看永安區的永新漁港，張署長也在，永新漁港過去的設施當然是老舊，現在海洋局提出這個計畫，我也去看了，這對漁民、對漁業都有很大的幫助，我希望張署長和陳部長能夠全力支持。"],["陳部長駿季：我們確定會支持。"],["邱委員志偉：3,000萬麻煩你幫忙處理一下。"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["邱委員志偉：要幫忙支持啦，因為市政府、地方政府比較沒有錢。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，我們會支持。"],["邱委員志偉：臺中市也面臨同樣的狀況，所以中央對地方特別是漁港設施，跟漁民、漁業有相關的，都要加強補助。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：你會支持吧？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會支持，為了漁民的安全和整個漁港的安全……"],["邱委員志偉：這3,000萬就拜託了。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。陳亭妃委員及陳冠廷委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢及未及答復部分，請於1週之內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.978468750000001,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.34909375,"end":17.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.559718750000002,"end":19.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.01096875,"end":21.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.95159375,"end":22.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.75721875,"end":28.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.03096875,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.29221875,"end":29.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.28784375,"end":32.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.02159375,"end":35.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.61596875,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.24846875,"end":40.244093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.39596875,"end":40.868468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.627843750000004,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.024093750000006,"end":45.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.66096875,"end":46.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.44971875,"end":48.377843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.56784375,"end":48.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.52971875,"end":48.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.84159375,"end":52.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.727218750000006,"end":55.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.617218750000006,"end":57.102218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.797843750000006,"end":61.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.18596875,"end":66.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.60284375,"end":67.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.68284375,"end":72.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.38221875,"end":77.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.68596875,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.33096875000001,"end":91.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.16534375,"end":85.53659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.57346875,"end":98.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.06596875000001,"end":101.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.94346875000001,"end":101.55096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.07409375,"end":104.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.95971875000001,"end":105.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.15784375000001,"end":108.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.82409375,"end":113.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.29159375,"end":118.81409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.03346875000001,"end":122.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.28596875000001,"end":126.18846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.53846875,"end":133.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.74409375000002,"end":139.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.32971875,"end":142.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.06346875,"end":146.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.20221875000001,"end":147.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.22721875000002,"end":149.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.49284375000002,"end":152.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.90159375000002,"end":158.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.99346875,"end":163.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.38096875000002,"end":163.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.56659375,"end":163.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.71846875,"end":163.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.78596875000002,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.03909375,"end":164.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.07284375,"end":164.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.15721875,"end":174.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.17409375,"end":164.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.90659375,"end":178.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.07471875000002,"end":179.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.18846875,"end":188.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.03096875,"end":195.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.47284375,"end":203.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.00346875000002,"end":213.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.11721875,"end":206.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.16721875000002,"end":208.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.09471875000003,"end":224.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.89534375000002,"end":231.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.74659375000002,"end":227.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.27346875,"end":230.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.90596875000003,"end":233.32784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.76659375000003,"end":237.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.06971875000002,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.24659375000002,"end":244.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.97159375,"end":246.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.92909375000002,"end":247.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.19471875000002,"end":249.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.51096875000002,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.62034375000002,"end":252.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.37534375,"end":253.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.32034375,"end":259.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.44596875,"end":260.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.30659375,"end":261.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.23034375000003,"end":264.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.63096875,"end":265.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.21721875000003,"end":271.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.14034375,"end":276.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.67971875,"end":277.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.55284375,"end":279.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.05909375000005,"end":279.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.81409375000004,"end":282.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.02909375,"end":282.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.85596875000005,"end":282.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.87284375,"end":283.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.02034375,"end":293.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.01471875000004,"end":298.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.79034375000003,"end":298.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.97159375,"end":298.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.98846875000004,"end":299.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.00534375,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.03909375,"end":305.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.31721875,"end":301.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.89034375,"end":313.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.64471875000004,"end":312.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.85534375000003,"end":317.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.37784375,"end":320.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.16221875,"end":324.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.44846875,"end":326.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.01346875,"end":329.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.02596875,"end":329.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.40971875,"end":340.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.54471875,"end":331.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.04971875,"end":341.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.05346875000004,"end":344.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.33159375,"end":345.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.79534375000003,"end":347.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.90909375,"end":352.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.92159375,"end":349.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.35971875,"end":358.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.03409375,"end":358.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.68784375,"end":364.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.78409375,"end":366.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.99471875,"end":368.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.22221875,"end":370.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.55534375,"end":370.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.31034375,"end":374.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.02721875000003,"end":376.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.76534375,"end":376.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.96784375000004,"end":380.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.81096875000003,"end":385.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.50659375000004,"end":387.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.46409375,"end":388.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.37534375,"end":391.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.23971875,"end":400.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.16659375,"end":403.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.91721875,"end":406.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.71409375,"end":421.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.92284375,"end":428.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.03159375,"end":428.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.12846875,"end":429.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.14534375000005,"end":437.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.56596875,"end":438.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.86534375,"end":439.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.11846875000003,"end":441.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.33346875,"end":440.89034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.51471875000004,"end":449.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.88534375,"end":446.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.16346875000005,"end":449.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.76659375,"end":463.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.82909375,"end":455.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.79409375,"end":463.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.68846875,"end":471.23159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.17659375000005,"end":473.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.67846875000004,"end":477.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.42034375000003,"end":480.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.03159375,"end":482.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.04846875000004,"end":485.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.26346875,"end":483.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.96346875,"end":486.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.08159375,"end":497.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.47659375,"end":498.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.16409375,"end":498.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.43409375000005,"end":505.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.45096875,"end":498.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.93159375000005,"end":501.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.47096875000005,"end":516.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.94596875,"end":520.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.4053437499999,"end":521.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.9409687500001,"end":523.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.84346875,"end":528.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.60659375,"end":529.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.70346875,"end":531.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.96909375,"end":541.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.1615937500001,"end":550.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.7422187500001,"end":556.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.04159375,"end":553.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.56846875,"end":560.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.2765937500001,"end":568.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.94721875,"end":563.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.83659375,"end":577.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.71284375,"end":582.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.9272187500001,"end":584.9522187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.40784375,"end":586.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.94346875,"end":589.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.8078437500001,"end":601.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.0265937500001,"end":596.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.02971875,"end":605.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.3203437500001,"end":605.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.82659375,"end":605.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.84346875,"end":605.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.8603437500001,"end":607.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.9697187500001,"end":612.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.9778437500001,"end":611.00721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.222,"end":1.042,"text":"邱志偉委員請做選擇。邱志偉委員"},{"start":30.316,"end":30.676,"text":"農業部陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":61.297,"end":61.758,"text":"農業部變成雞蛋部"},{"start":75.215,"end":88.304,"text":"我希望能夠更快的釐清如果有不對就改進 如果他們有不實的指控 有不實的質詢 你們當然要反駁 不實的證據 不實的論述 你們就強烈的反駁 對不對所以你要了解為什麼會一直循環這個問題 就是你是不是預測的機制有問題"},{"start":100.077,"end":126.016,"text":"我看一下那個過去10年 過去10年那個但不是缺就是剩 不是缺就是剩缺剩缺剩缺剩這一次循環嘛 就在你這個預測生產預測機制有沒有可能要優化一點 如果你的生產預測機制不好不健全 那你預測就會失準就會變成產銷失調嘛 供應跟需求供應跟需求永遠對不上"},{"start":127.591,"end":133.431,"text":"所以你這個生產預設機制是不是能夠過去的經驗就用大數據你現在不是有你的AI嗎?"},{"start":134.79,"end":157.465,"text":"你用這個去預測你該怎麼樣去處理,不要每次這個產銷失調的時候就去補助。不是補助進口,就是補助淘汰這個寡產蛋機。一直在循環。所以問題是你要索購錢之後,到底問題出在哪裡?你們可以用AI、用人工智慧去協助優化你們的生產預測機制。"},{"start":159.042,"end":188.108,"text":"那避免這個預測機制失衡嗎?博林你有什麼想法?謝謝委員的建議那事實上我們現在也在啟動就是說我們現在的調查其實過去的調查很多盲點那我們其實已經去要去掌握過去的這些年度的這些高那個需求量每個月的需求量然後現在目前還有一個重點就是老母雞的淘汰是現在目前淡廠的一個自己的一個調整機制那這些調整我們現在因為"},{"start":189.108,"end":191.85,"text":"對,我們會這樣子,然後這次最主要是消費端的那個拉力、需求力拉不起來啦"},{"start":218.709,"end":223.412,"text":"所以今天的主題是農業移工政策改善你們提出精進作為精進作為你必須要有一個時間表精進作為兩個面向增加人力供給第二個"},{"start":248.26,"end":261.762,"text":"就是減少、減省人力需求攻擊面增加然後呢需求面把它降低對不對?是那你也有時間表第一個你們上個禮拜"},{"start":263.274,"end":279.409,"text":"跟相關的單位有結論按照這個農業能力需求跟勞動部提案申請增加農糧跟畜牧產業的農業移工緣額來 那個農業部有代表來沒有 那個勞動部這個什麼時候會執行這個什麼時候會執行 那個部長你們"},{"start":284.073,"end":312.379,"text":"我們現在是預估就是因為我們現在的一萬兩千人大概預估到年底會大概滿了現在是八千多人那我們已經啟動這個評估八千人現期旅籍你們有這個會議結論你們要跟提案跟勞動部提案嘛對不對什麼時候要提那提出多少元額他們7月開會的時候就因為勞動部有例行的一個會議我們在7月的時候就會提出去所以你這些要序名清楚你要讓讓所有的這個有需求單位瞭解你們一定有做的這些樣的作為齁"},{"start":313.919,"end":329.461,"text":"另外你們加強改善季節性缺工的問題好你說移工跨區這年農會都不知道嘛移工可以跨區是跨區還是跨市跨縣市都可以有南宮北廖嗎"},{"start":331.178,"end":350.822,"text":"他會隨著這個季節的收穫的季節有沒有會在跨最主要是跨縣市喔臨近的縣市為主因為他現在要交通的問題所以你這要講清楚你推動外籍移工跨區這個施辦就要上路了沒上路了沒啊沒合是有幾個建築"},{"start":353.47,"end":377.561,"text":"所以你要把這個做法 讓所有的需求單位了解 可以跨區你有很多政策 雖然是利益良善 但是往往我們這個基層需求單位不了解 我們有哪些有效的政策所以不知道你怎麼想所以這部分你要加強宣導 跟這個相關的農事單位或是農會組織 農場加強去宣導"},{"start":381.894,"end":406.103,"text":"所以很多政策就是你們缺乏宣傳然後你未來這個你要把這個本來本勞跟外勞的合配比這個上上禮拜我開過記者會農業缺工這是一個存在已久的問題但你拿出來對策沒有辦法有效解決嘛如果有效解決就不會一直有缺工嘛對不對 這代表你們政策失靈啊"},{"start":407.796,"end":428.362,"text":"所以你現在未來要把你這個10天以下事業單位合位比跟這個一般農民團體相同這部分什麼時候上路?我們也是大概在7月的會議的時候我們一併會提出來所以這個就是要趕快建基立基然後你說減省人力需求每一鄉鎮都要有農機Uber"},{"start":429.198,"end":448.584,"text":"什麼什麼上路我們大概現在開始已經在推動了齁那我們預計齁我們現在大概兩四年之內會全部的一鄉鎮一Uber但是兩年一鄉鎮一Uber對就是重大的產業區 全國重大的重要的這個產區裡面一鄉鎮是一Uber我以為你這個連台北市信譽區都要沒有沒有重要的農業生產區才有啦所以你要把這個"},{"start":450.645,"end":469.122,"text":"你不是每鄉鎮都成立你應該是這個農業縣主要的不是農業縣所有的鄉鎮都需要對不對你要把這區把它列明出來包括高雄市、台南市、屏東縣有哪些鄉鎮有這個所謂的農機uber"},{"start":472.216,"end":479.658,"text":"你什麼時候可以上路?什麼時候可以讓農友可以共享農機?你要講清楚啊!"},{"start":483.419,"end":504.926,"text":"我想我們這個政策才在上個月沒有應該是兩三個禮拜前確認然後現在正在去規劃每一區的政府區然後現在已經有15團的所以我們會去針對重要的產區規劃大力道有政策要有效率而且要有效果雙效合一人民才有感"},{"start":505.566,"end":507.166,"text":"會不會影響到農業相關系統的招生?"},{"start":528.866,"end":550.423,"text":"我想會有一些影響我們有曾經跟相關的大學的老師去討論那相關的就是AI的部分可能是你們是預測未來10年我們農業相關系所的招生的下降的比率人數的比率這個都要"},{"start":551.752,"end":551.892,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":561.351,"end":562.992,"text":"對,我們確定會支持這三千萬你來倒數你勒"},{"start":590.865,"end":596.59,"text":"臺中市也面臨同樣的狀況所以中央要對地方這種特別是漁港、漁民設施跟漁民、跟漁業有相關的都要加強補助會了解我們會質詢為了整個漁民的安全跟整個漁港的安全性"}]}},{"id":"154379","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154379","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c800141b12193fda54b539dbd63c1cc91ef8091c70453fc49a12d4359cc2b37275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:53:02 - 10:03:25","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:53:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:03:25+08:00","duration":623,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":219,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時53分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["沈委員伯洋：今天最主要是要問加入聯合國等國際組織的問題，等一下再問一下後面相關的……我以前所關心的事項。昨天剛好在國防及外交聯席會議審臺印MOU，昨天在討論這件事情的時候有滿重要的一點，第一個，MOU到底是不是能夠送到立法院審查？這個其實要打一個問號，畢竟MOU是個意向書，按照條約締結法，它並不是一個協定。畢竟它送進來了，既然大家覺得要審查，我們也尊重。就這件事情來講，勞動部最主要是著重勞工的保護、有沒有G2G之類的。不知道在這件事情上面，外交部有沒有跟勞動部說明一下，如果今天我們在這邊修改……因為不能直接修改文字，只能整個退回，退回之後會對臺印造成相關的衝擊。不知道那個時候有沒有跟勞動部說明這樣的狀況？"],["林部長佳龍：有，這個部分本來是查照後來變成備查，當然尊重立法院的職權，後來審查完成之後也是准予備查。這個部分我們都有跟勞動部溝通。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我昨天發現在質詢的場合裡面，滿多人並沒有特別的……畢竟不是每一個人都跟國防、外交有關，所以不是每一個人都關心臺印之間的關係。因為之前臺印之間有講到3S──student、society還有science technology，所以這算是society相關的交流事項，這一次在他們的政府方面，我們臺印的關係也是不斷的在加溫，所以我覺得這算是一個蠻重要的事項，希望以後外交部能夠也多多協助，因為畢竟昨天都不是外交部回答，都是勞動部在回答，他們能夠做一些勞動相關的社會影響力評估，這沒問題，但對於外交的那些評估，可能需要外交部的協助。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來就是今天的主題，關於聯合國相關的組織，當然我們最近爭取加入WHA，我們的國際支持也越來越高，它背後最主要的一個原因還是跟2758號有關，因為我在今天的專案報告裡面有看到，美國還有歐洲不斷的用2758號來幫我們做解釋，這個是因為我們在同盟關係之下，也是外交部的努力，專報裡面有提到一點，就是現在外交部也是要積極去反制，因為中國一直想要把2758號解釋成他們想要的樣貌，現在這個反制措施具體來講有哪一些？"],["林部長佳龍：當然除了美國做了法律的研究，我們怎麼樣去擴大宣傳，這次美國也跟第三方包括我們的邦交國也展開所謂的message campaign這樣的溝通，我想這個不只是由上而下，且是全面性。因為2758號決議其實被扭曲、誤用，這些事情很多國家都不知道，所以並沒有限制臺灣參加國際組織，或是說其他國家跟我們建交，這些都是開放的，因為它只處理了蔣介石政權的代表，它甚至沒有觸及到臺灣，所以臺灣到底能不能做什麼事情，這是開放的，各國基於主權都可以跟臺灣交往，國際組織也是一樣。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，這個是正面的論述，就是說我們要怎麼去告訴大家這個事實是什麼，然後我們的邦交國怎麼去幫我們講話，反過來中國他們會不斷的在各式各樣的場合，比如今年的香格里拉會議，他們一樣會通過臺灣主權的一些論述，他們每一次這種論述出來的時候，我們反擊的力道，當然我們跟盟友之間要選擇什麼時機去講2758號決議，這是一個，但另外一個就是每一次中國在誤用2758號的時候，我們除了能夠在社群媒體上面發聲明之外，有沒有可能讓比如我們跟盟友之間的聲明在時間點上跟這個更為切合？因為以中國目前來講，會做這些事情的時間點大概都是那幾個，所以我希望外交部在這件事情上面能夠更快速的去迎擊中國的論述。我昨天在跟國防部也有講到相關的事情，就是有時候一些投書的內容似是而非，國防部到底要怎麼在第一時間去做論述，怎麼讓人民知道，我覺得現在好像看起來是越來越重要了。"],["林部長佳龍：是，一方面除了美國以外，當然也影響很多友盟，比如G7的一些國家，另外美國其實在這次WHA上面也在反制中國對2758號決議的扭曲，所以這其實是作用力跟反作用力。另外，我特別跟很多來臺灣的外賓講，中共的法律戰事實上是為它的武力犯臺合理化取得一個法的基礎，這是法律戰，所以我們越是不去回應、去破解這2758號決議的話，他們越會把臺灣變成中國的內政，臺海變成中國的內海，所以大家一聽就覺得這不是單獨法律爭議的問題，這是中共在為武力併臺做法律基礎的準備，大家都會覺得這必須要我們一起來看怎麼樣去回應，所以不只是參加國際組織，凡涉及到臺海和平跟穩定的都會跟2758號決議有關。其實很多人不去了解2758號決議的內容，就像九二共識，很多人一聽覺得有共識很好啊，可是你去了解以後，1992年那時候就沒有什麼共識啊！是後來發明的，2000年的蘇起。所以我覺得不能夠讓他們塑造一個稻草人，然後所謂的2758號決議，我覺得2758號決議某種程度是中共虛構的七一共識，1971年，那九二共識就是1992年，又虛構了另外一個共識，他們用這樣的一個決議、共識來將武力犯臺合理化，就是把臺灣問題變成中國的內政，這個大家一聽就會知道，這個就不是單獨只是兩邊在那邊吵法律的問題，它是涉及到混合戰，為軍事犯臺奠定基礎。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，因為提到法律戰這一件事情，我們都是感同身受，而且非常重要的一點是，的確國際上很多的盟友對於法律戰（legal warfare）的概念並不是那麼清楚，但它偏偏寫在解放軍的教科書上，說這就是他們發動戰爭的一種方式，所以讓盟友理解法律戰的框架，我認為是非常重要的，而且這個所謂的不存在的協議，他們最近才跟菲律賓也弄了一個幽靈協議，就是對方到底簽協議的人在哪裡都不知道，但他宣稱有這個協議存在，一樣的事情一定也還會在臺灣發生。這剛好就切到下一個問題，剛好他們公布懲治臺獨的意見，臺獨分子可以處以死刑什麼等等之類，這一個可能跟陸委會比較相關，我在這邊很快速的問一下外交部，因為這個是廣泛的適用在他們所謂的臺獨分子，這些人有可能在海外，那在海外這些人，可能有些國家有一些引渡條例，雖然政治犯原則上是不引渡的，但是中國到底會做出什麼事情來，以及跟他友好的國家會做出什麼事情來，我們不敢擔保，所以就變成外交部這一次在這個意見出現之後，對於海外國人的告知，然後還有風險的評估，不知道開始了沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：是，我們有開過國安高層的會議，比如對於旅遊區、對於中國發布橙色警告，另外就是在海外，因為有涉及一些跟中國有簽訂司法互助跟引渡條約的國家，甚至其中有相當一部分有一中原則在建交公報裡面，過去甚至有一些國家對於刑事犯罪像詐騙進行引渡或遣返，這些就是我們特別要注意的，所以我們已經有訓令外館要去跟當地政府溝通，另外有任何的事態發生，我們的處置現在也都在進行，讓國人也提高警覺，然後不會讓中共的長臂管轄或跨境鎮壓傷害到國人。因為中共最近透過海警法，也不只是對臺灣，他們對於相當多的鄰近國家，都是以他們自己的法律在做國際上面的灰色地帶或混合戰，這個我們也要跟國際做好溝通，這不是單獨對臺灣。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。最後提醒一點，因為時間到了，就是希望趕快可以給海外的臺灣人一些指引，讓他們知道可能的風險，再來就是中國其實有一個做法，他們可能先用詐欺的方式或者任何其他的罪名先引渡，等到了中國之後再轉換罪名，把人變成政治犯，這種事情也蠻常見的，所以可能也必須告知國人這件事情。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：關於後面外館的問題，我相信今天也會有很多人問，我今天時間不夠了，那我就先講到這邊，謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.9715937500000003,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.40971875,"end":7.1353437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.738468750000003,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.813468750000002,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.488468750000003,"end":78.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.27596875,"end":80.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.09846875000001,"end":86.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.37596875,"end":95.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.02034375000001,"end":95.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.40846875000001,"end":98.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.91846875,"end":164.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.75971875000002,"end":142.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.27096875,"end":188.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.16596875000002,"end":189.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.62159375000002,"end":189.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.51596875,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.50721875000002,"end":217.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.38096875000002,"end":217.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.35971875,"end":246.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.03284375,"end":231.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.88346875000002,"end":242.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.28784375,"end":246.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.35534375,"end":313.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.11284375,"end":342.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.14534375,"end":321.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.81284375,"end":343.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.99409375000005,"end":344.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.83784375000005,"end":384.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.05909375000005,"end":360.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.64596875,"end":385.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.06784375,"end":385.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.30409375000005,"end":398.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.56784375,"end":404.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.14909375,"end":406.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.71846875,"end":407.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.37659375000004,"end":408.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.16971875,"end":408.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.37221875,"end":416.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.48909375000005,"end":418.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.37909375000004,"end":419.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.03284375000004,"end":429.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.09034375000005,"end":434.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.22471875,"end":510.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.51659375,"end":593.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.00159375,"end":621.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.30096875,"end":622.6172187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.537,"end":3.039,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":16.788,"end":34.878,"text":"委員長今天最主要是要問這個跟加入聯合國等等國際組織的一些問題那等一下也再問一下後面的一些相關的這個剛剛前面危險關係的事項那一開始呢這個因為昨天剛好在審這個也是跟我們國防外交聯席的這個台印的MOU"},{"start":36.298,"end":36.499,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":51.488,"end":51.748,"text":"有,那是不是"},{"start":81.243,"end":106.232,"text":"那這個部分當然因為本來是這個就是要應該講說是查照變成備查嘛那當然尊重立法院的質詢那後來也是審查完成之後也是准以備查所以這個部分我們跟勞動部也都有溝通對因為我昨天發現在這個質詢的場合裡面蠻多人他們並沒有特別的因為我畢竟不是在不是每個人都跟國防外交有關"},{"start":106.972,"end":134.046,"text":"所以不是每個人都關心就是談硬之間的關係但我認為這個因為談硬之間之前有講到3S什麼student society還有science and technology所以這個是一個算是society相關的一個交流事項那這一次在他們的政府裡面我們談硬的關係也是不斷的在加溫所以我覺得這算是一個蠻重要的事項那希望以後外交部能夠也多多因為讓勞動部他們在回答的時候因為畢竟昨天都不是外交部回答都是勞動部在回答"},{"start":134.366,"end":135.507,"text":"關於聯合國相關的組織當然我們最近有爭取加入WHA還有這個"},{"start":153.882,"end":154.703,"text":"國際知識越來越高最主要背後的原因與2758有關因為美國"},{"start":169.399,"end":188.493,"text":"還有歐洲他們不斷地用2758號來幫我們做解釋這個是因為我們在同盟關係之下也是外交部的一個努力那因為專報裡面有提到一點就是現在外交部也是要積極要去反制因為中國一直想要去把2758號解釋解釋成他們想要的樣貌那這個反制的措施現在具體來講有哪一些"},{"start":190.697,"end":217.195,"text":"當然除了美國就是他們跟做了法律的研究這個是我們怎麼樣去擴大宣傳這一次我想美國也包括跟第三方包括我們的邦交國配方也在展開所謂的public messaging campaign這樣的一個溝通我想這個不只是由上而下我想是全面性因為"},{"start":218.976,"end":245.216,"text":"這個二七五八的決議其實它被扭曲、誤用這件事情很多國家都不知道所以並沒有限制就台灣參加國際組織或是說其他國家跟我們建交這些都是開放因為它只處理了蔣介石政權的代表它甚至沒有去觸及到台灣所以這個台灣到底能不能做什麼事情這是開放的這是各國基於主權都可以來跟台灣交往國際組織也是一樣"},{"start":247.117,"end":269.728,"text":"謝謝部長這個是正面的論述就是說我們要怎麼去告訴大家這個事實是什麼然後我們的邦交國怎麼去幫我們講話但因為反過來就是像中國他們會不斷的去在各式各樣的場合比如說這一次的今年的香格里拉會議他們又一樣會有這些這個通過這個台灣主權的一些論述那他每一次這種論述出來的時候我們的反擊的力道"},{"start":270.208,"end":292.069,"text":"就是當然我們跟盟友之間要選擇什麼時機然後去講2758號決議這是一個但另外一個就是他每一次中國在誤用2758號的時候我們除了能夠在社群媒體上面發聲明之外有沒有可能讓比如說我們跟盟友之間的聲明能夠時間點跟這個更為切合因為中國目前來講會來做這些事情的時間點大概都是那幾個"},{"start":293.05,"end":312.38,"text":"所以我希望說外交部在這件事情上面我們能夠更快速的去迎擊這個中國的論述我昨天剛好在跟國防部相關的事情也有講到就是有時候一些投書裡面的內容似是而非那國防部到底要在第一時間然後要怎麼去做論述然後怎麼讓人民知道我覺得現在好像看起來是越來越重要"},{"start":313.18,"end":341.821,"text":"是一方面除了美國說以外當然也影響很多友盟當然比如G7一些國家另外美國其實在這次WHA上面他也是反制中國對2758的決意所以這個是就是說其實是作用力跟反作用力另外我特別跟很多來台灣我們的這些外賓都會講中共的法律戰他事實上是為他的武力犯台"},{"start":342.884,"end":359.694,"text":"在合理化取得一個所謂的法的基礎這是法律戰所以越是我們不去回應去破解這2758號決議的話他會以這個把台灣就是變成中國的內政台海變成中國的內海"},{"start":360.154,"end":383.875,"text":"所以大家一聽就覺得這不是單獨法律爭議的問題這是中共武力併台在做法律基礎的準備大家都會覺得說這個必須要我們一起來看怎麼樣去回應所以不只是參加國際組織而涉及到這個台海的和平跟穩定都會跟這個2758號決議會有關那2758號決議其實很多人不去了解內容就用九二共識"},{"start":386.096,"end":406.208,"text":"有共識很好可是你去了解92年那時候就沒有什麼共識是後來發明的2000年蘇起所以我覺得不能夠變成一個就是他做到一個稻草人然後就是有所謂的這個2758號決議我覺得2758號決議某種程度是所謂中共虛構的七一共識"},{"start":407.93,"end":419.523,"text":"1971年那九二共識就是1992年又虛構了另外一個共識他用這樣的一個決議啦共識來作為合理化他武力犯台就把台灣問題變成中國的內政這個大家會聽說"},{"start":422.486,"end":428.852,"text":"謝謝部長因為提到法律戰這件事情我們都是感同身受而且非常重要的一點是的確國際上很多的盟友對於法律戰這個legal warfare的概念並不是那麼清楚"},{"start":444.807,"end":462.707,"text":"但他偏偏是寫在解放軍的教科書上面說這就是他們發動戰爭的一種方式所以讓盟友理解法律這樣的一個框架我認為是非常重要的而且這個所謂的這個不存在的協議他們最近才跟菲律賓也弄了一個幽靈協議就是對方到底簽協議的人在哪裡都不知道"},{"start":463.067,"end":487.6,"text":"他宣稱有這個協議的存在一樣的事情一定也會還會再對台灣發生但是這個剛好就切到下一個問題就是剛好他們公佈這個懲治台獨的意見然後這個台獨分子可以處以死刑啊什麼等等之類的那這個呢當然比較多可能是跟陸委會相關的不過這邊很快速的想要問一下外交部就是在於說因為他這個是廣泛的適用在他們所謂的台獨分子那這些人有可能在海外"},{"start":488.3,"end":510.169,"text":"在海外這些人可能有些國家他有一些引渡條例雖然政治犯原則上是不引渡的但是中國到底會做出什麼事情來以及跟他友好的國家會做出什麼事情來我們不敢擔保所以就變成說外交部這一次在這個意見出現之後對於海外的國人的這個告知然後還有風險的一個評估不知道開始了沒有"},{"start":510.609,"end":535.695,"text":"是,我們有做過國安高層的會議,比如說發布陳澈警戒、警告對於旅遊區、對於中國方面另外就是在海外因為有涉及到有一些跟中國有簽訂司法互助跟引渡條約的甚至裡面也有相當一部分有一中原則在建交公報裡面"},{"start":536.175,"end":561.616,"text":"那這個都是過去甚至有一些國家以所謂的對於刑事犯罪像詐騙那進行所謂的引渡或遣返那這些就是我們特別要注意所以我們已經有訓練外館要去跟當地政府溝通然後另外有任何的事態發生我們的處置我們現在也都在進行這方面那讓國人也提高警覺"},{"start":562.617,"end":585.405,"text":"然後不會讓中共的這個所謂的長臂管轄或者是跨境的鎮壓去傷害到國人因為這個問題是透過我想最近中共對像海警法也不只是對台灣他對於這個相當多的臨近的這些國家都是以他自己的法律在做國際上面的"},{"start":586.385,"end":614.936,"text":"這個就是說一個灰色地帶或混合戰那這個我們也是要跟國際要做好溝通這不是單獨對台灣好 謝謝部長那最後提醒一點因為時間到了就是說希望趕快可以給海外的台灣人有一些指引讓他們知道可能的風險然後再來就是中國在其他形式他有一個做法就是他可能先用詐欺的方式或者任何的其他的罪名先引渡等到到了中國之後他再轉換罪名變成政治犯這種事情也會蠻常見的所以可能也必須告訴國人這件事情"},{"start":615.717,"end":620.786,"text":"關於後面外廣的問題我相信今天應該也很多人問了今天時間也不夠了那我就先講到這邊謝謝主席謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"154378","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154378","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c226217901561759221a3f23b3ad13ea2ef8091c70453fc491dd507136dc6c8c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:14:58 - 12:23:32","影片長度":"00:08:34","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T12:14:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T12:23:32+08:00","duration":514,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1128,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時15分）主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：部長，首先我對於農業部在蛋的產銷管理上，我真的覺得非常奇怪！今年7月1號開始，又要跟養雞協會合作開始殺老母雞，去年的時候說要補助老母雞，說要進口種雞，那時候很多農民跟農業部講說進口太多就會造成產能過剩，農業部說沒關係，先進再講，結果進了之後我們農業部又要再花錢去殺老母雞，你會不會造成到時候又缺蛋？我不知道部長能不能承諾不會再造成缺蛋狀況？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，整個蛋雞場的產業鏈裡面，老母雞的淘汰是蛋農本來就在做的，我們是提供誘因讓他加速老母雞的淘汰……"],["葉委員元之：加速嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是用加速的……"],["葉委員元之：去年鼓勵人家多進，然後今年又叫他加速去殺，進口蛋去年一直進一堆，進了一堆之後，再花錢把它銷毀，這都是民脂民膏。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明……"],["葉委員元之：部長，沒關係啦，你如果認為沒有錯的話，我是希望你可以檢討一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定努力來……"],["葉委員元之：這個產銷問題都是花人民納稅錢，把人民納稅錢一點一滴都浪費掉，然後又會造成缺蛋，我希望農業部可以針對蛋的問題，你們仔細思考一下，怎麼從源頭把它管理，不是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳啦！","但我今天還是一樣，我想要問超思的問題、畜產會的問題，因為當時大家在問說畜產會這個採購有沒有問題，農業部當初是說沒問題，你們第一時間是說沒問題，你們說因為畜產會是用自有資金購買財物，所以沒問題，甚至於還推說畜產會我們調查不到，結果現在被大家發現說不是沒問題，包括你自己剛剛跟其他委員的詢答，你都承認了，在冷鏈還有運費這一塊，他們是沒有用採購法，所以違法了嘛！你現在又有問題，我不知道到底農業部跟畜產會之間關係是什麼，因為你未來不會跟畜產會拒絕往來，你還會透過很多補助，給它去採購很多農產品，你到底有沒有在監督它？你到底是怎麼管制？還有一開始第一時間為什麼是推託？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，畜產會跟農業部的關係，我們農業部是它的督導單位，所以畜產會所有行政方面的部分，農業部都有權力去做相關的調查。"],["葉委員元之：你們一開始不是這樣講的喔，你們農業部一開始面對外界質疑時說，畜產會是用自有資金買，那個都合法的。"],["陳部長駿季：這是兩件事情，我說從畜產會本身管理的部分，農業部是負責督導的，我們有權力去做相關行政查核，這個部分是沒問題的，第二個部分就是畜產會如果有些產銷調節，他用自有資金，先用了以後跟農業部請款的時候，有一部分是符合政府採購法就要用政府採購法，不符合政府採購法的部分，我們就會用50%以下，另外一類就是111年這一類，它是在年度先核計畫的時候，如果後續沒有照相關規範，不符合規範的，我們錢就會收回來。"],["葉委員元之：當然嘛！可是你這個就是後見之明……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["葉委員元之：理論上來講，現在畜產會是來解決國內大家缺蛋的問題，所以農業部才會補助它一筆錢讓它去採購。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以你先前就要跟它講清楚，在採購的時候比如說要符合採購法規範，蛋可以不用符合採購法，但是其他的運費、冷鏈，你要符合採購法，連這一點事情你們都無法督導，還要事後說你來跟我請款的時候，我少給一點，我就覺得非常奇怪，畜產會不是大部分的資金來源都是農業部嗎？這也都是人民的納稅錢，你讓它少請了，它如果虧本的話，最後，很多時候農業部也還是要補助給它，所以為什麼不能事先解決，一定要事後等這個事情爆出來之後，才要說這個事情已經被外界知道了，所以這個補助我們要減一半。"],["陳部長駿季：不過我想……"],["葉委員元之：農業部這樣的態度非常消極。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分就是相關的這些補助案本身就很清楚……"],["葉委員元之：部長，我只是想問你啦，接下來還會不會發生一樣的狀況？你透過畜產會要解決國內的某一個農產品稀缺的問題，然後一樣讓它先去買，然後它不合法之後，你再對它追繳，所以未來還會發生一樣的狀況嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想不是說不合法以後才去追繳……"],["葉委員元之：沒有符合採購法就是不合法。"],["陳部長駿季：我一開始剛才有跟其他委員講，這個是畜產會本身在雞蛋的採購過程中的倉儲，他們是誤解的，以為是它是跟著雞蛋一條包裝的，所以後來他們瞭解……"],["葉委員元之：部長，理論上來講，畜產會跟你的關係非常密切，畜產會董事長是林聰賢，他以前也是農業部的，所以應該也是官派的，一個這麼密切的單位，結果會讓它產生誤解，農業部都完全沒責任，一副就是沒關係，我就少給你一點錢，好像所有責任都是畜產會，應該不是這樣吧？部長，農業部對於畜產會完全沒有任何督導和管理責任嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們負有督導的責任，所以我說有很多相關的行政疏失……"],["葉委員元之：當然，過去的事情該追究就追究，我現在講的是未來呢？因為我現在跟部長詢答的感覺是你覺得你都沒有錯嘛！你覺得那是畜產會的事情，未來畜產會是不是一樣會有類似的狀況？"],["陳部長駿季：政府部門都要依法行事，相關的規範都要符合政府採購法，這是一個大原則，如果違反的話、你是惡意的、故意的，我們就會懲處。"],["葉委員元之：我們不要繞圈圈了，我的問題是農業部對於畜產會是不是還是一樣放任？"],["陳部長駿季：我們絕對不會，我們已經在加強畜產會的管理。"],["葉委員元之：會不會又造成一樣的狀況，畜產會採購的時候又誤解了，又沒有透過公開採購，又繞過了政府採購法，然後農業部再說我少給你補助，這樣無止盡循環，會發生這樣的狀況嗎？你有沒有把握未來對畜產會的監督到位？"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定會更積極地去監督，相關的……"],["葉委員元之：有沒有人謀不臧是另外一回事，因為現在檢調在查，我就不臆測，但是我現在在問農業部的官方行政責任。第二，有關於超思和亮采的關係，到底查清楚沒有？為什麼畜產會跟亮采簽約，付錢卻付給超思，為什麼？查清楚沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：亮采和超思本身的私法人關係，我們行政權沒辦法……"],["葉委員元之：什麼私法人關係？行政調查也可以知道啊！"],["陳部長駿季：但是行政調查沒有辦法去調查他們私法人的關係，包括委任和債權關係，所以我們移請檢調……"],["葉委員元之：你都沒辦法問畜產會，為什麼它是跟亮采簽約，但是付錢給超思，這沒辦法問嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們不會聽信任何一方，公部門對外講話要附我們的事實證據。"],["葉委員元之：你有沒有問？"],["陳部長駿季：證據的部分要請檢調單位去處理。"],["葉委員元之：請問農業部有沒有去問畜產會為什麼是這樣的情況？有沒有問？"],["陳部長駿季：對我來講，我覺得他們是商業關係，商業關係是私法人關係，應該請檢調單位去釐清。"],["葉委員元之：所以農業部沒有問的意思，你連查都沒有查，到現在為止，外界關心的超思和亮采的關係，你都還沒有去釐清，是這個意思嗎？就推給司法？"],["陳部長駿季：這個是必須要釐清的，但是以政府部門的行政權沒辦法去釐清這件事情，所以我們已經移請檢調。"],["葉委員元之：部長，剛剛我跟你講的是農業部和畜產會的關係，你要督導畜產會在採購要符合一定的規定，基本上，跟A廠商簽約，卻付款給B廠商，這是非常罕見的，結果你站在一個督導的責任，連問為什麼它是這樣的行為，你都說跟你沒關係，就推給司法，農業部到底要怎麼去管理畜產會這個單位？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得委員要把事情分清楚，我剛才說的私法人關係是亮采和超思之間的私法人，行政權沒辦法處理，所以移請檢調。"],["葉委員元之：當然可以處理，因為你是管理單位，你是督導單位，你要不要做而已，我真的不相信農業部每年補助那麼多錢給畜產會，你連問都不能問。"],["陳部長駿季：政府部門不能用……"],["葉委員元之：我不相信，我真的不相信……"],["陳部長駿季：政府部門真的不能用片段的訊息去對外公開。"],["葉委員元之：部長，今天我問不出答案沒有關係，但所有人都看得出來，農業部對於畜產會就是這個態度，連大家這麼關心超思和亮采的關係，你說那是私法人關係，跟你沒關係，那你要怎麼去督導畜產會？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在新聞稿裡面就有把委任關係……"],["葉委員元之：部長，既然這個問題大家這麼關心，你就要去查，我希望是這樣，國人也希望知道真相，農業部不查，我覺得是失職，謝謝。"],["主席：大家都希望知道真相，部長加油。","接下來請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員。","請陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員。","最後請邱志偉委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":1.9040937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.09284375,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.72971875,"end":11.910968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.73784375,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.95221875,"end":29.511593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.454093750000002,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.152843750000002,"end":37.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.86471875,"end":39.400343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.024718750000005,"end":40.547843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.665968750000005,"end":44.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.15471875,"end":49.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.62221875,"end":51.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.90471875,"end":57.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.73909375,"end":66.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.83971875,"end":63.750968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.03346875,"end":76.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.99909375,"end":69.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.69846875,"end":76.42409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.54221875,"end":76.64346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.64346875000001,"end":76.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.91346875,"end":76.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.96409375,"end":88.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.06534375000001,"end":77.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.81159375,"end":83.64659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.47284375000001,"end":109.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.65096875,"end":113.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.38034375000001,"end":117.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.83534375,"end":121.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.32846875000001,"end":132.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.29721875,"end":140.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.00471875,"end":143.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.56971875000002,"end":148.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.91909375,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.03721875000002,"end":151.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.60221875000002,"end":161.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.51221875000002,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.02596875,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.05971875,"end":167.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.46471875,"end":167.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.58284375000002,"end":207.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.03846875000002,"end":168.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.28971875000002,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.39471875,"end":243.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.36409375000002,"end":253.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.18971875000003,"end":253.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.72971875000002,"end":253.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.76346875000002,"end":256.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.77596875,"end":255.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.46346875,"end":256.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.48034375000003,"end":256.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.51409375000003,"end":256.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.53096875,"end":262.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.78346875,"end":262.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.90971875,"end":262.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.97721875,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.91784375000003,"end":277.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.79784375,"end":293.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.24471875,"end":281.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.30596875000003,"end":300.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.18221875,"end":310.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.47596875,"end":317.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.77909375,"end":319.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.77034375,"end":319.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.96409375,"end":319.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.98096875000005,"end":321.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.06534375,"end":320.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.85846875000004,"end":321.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.85409375,"end":321.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.90471875000003,"end":322.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.00596875,"end":322.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.27596875,"end":322.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.29284375000003,"end":334.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.41096875,"end":322.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.48596875000004,"end":330.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.86096875000004,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.03784375000004,"end":334.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.10534375000003,"end":334.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.86471875,"end":345.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.58096875,"end":365.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.02721875000003,"end":351.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.18534375,"end":371.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.13409375000003,"end":366.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.80846875000003,"end":387.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.26221875000005,"end":383.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.72971875,"end":388.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.78034375000004,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.83096875,"end":389.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.63221875000005,"end":393.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.01159375000003,"end":394.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.82971875000004,"end":405.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.90846875000005,"end":405.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.97596875000005,"end":406.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.02659375,"end":408.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.94596875,"end":415.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.44346875,"end":413.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.41346875000005,"end":419.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.00784375,"end":423.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.62346875000003,"end":421.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.37409375000004,"end":423.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.86346875000004,"end":423.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.88034375,"end":423.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.89721875000004,"end":423.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.96471875000003,"end":434.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.01409375000003,"end":441.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.46034375000005,"end":439.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.52346875,"end":439.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.02971875000003,"end":463.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.16971875,"end":473.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.32909375,"end":468.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.08846875,"end":471.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.82221875000005,"end":509.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.16659375,"end":488.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.38784375000006,"end":498.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.23159375000006,"end":502.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.07784375000006,"end":511.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.79909375000005,"end":514.97159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.477,"end":1.498,"text":"請葉元之委員請做詢談。我們再請陳部長。"},{"start":18.181,"end":44.086,"text":"部長首先我是覺得對於農業部在淡的這個產銷管理我真的覺得非常奇怪今年7月1號開始又要跟養雞協會合作又要開始殺老母雞去年的時候說要補助老母雞說進口種雞那時候很多農民跟農業部講說進口太多就會造成產能過剩那農業部說沒關係先進再講然後結果進了之後我們農業部又要再花錢去殺老母雞"},{"start":45.202,"end":73.963,"text":"那你會不會又會造成說到時候彈又缺彈我不知道部長能不能承諾不會再造成缺彈狀況我跟委員說明就是整個彈機場的產業鏈裡面老母機的淘汰是一個彈籠本來在這做的那我們是提供誘因讓他加速這個老母機的淘汰去年鼓勵人家多進然後今年又對叫他加速去殺然後進口彈去年的話一直進一堆進了一堆之後再花錢把它銷毀"},{"start":75.064,"end":100.069,"text":"我跟委員說明,就是您剛才... 不,不打沒關係啦你如果認為沒有錯的話我是希望你可以檢討一下因為這個產銷問題都是花人民的納稅錢把人民的納稅錢一點一都浪費掉然後又會造成缺氮我希望農業部可以把這個氮的問題你們仔細思考一下怎麼從源頭把它管理不是頭都一頭腳痛一腳啦但我今天想要問還是一向我想要問這個超市的問題,續產會的問題"},{"start":101.969,"end":105.394,"text":"因為農業部當時大家在問說續展會這個採購有沒有問題農業部當初是說沒問題欸你們第一時間是說沒問題欸你們說因為續展會是用自有資金購買財物所以沒問題然後甚至於還推說續展會我們調查不到"},{"start":118.17,"end":134.248,"text":"結果現在被大家發現說不是沒問題包括你們自己剛剛你跟其他委員的詢答你都承認嘛在冷鏈還有運費這一塊他們是沒有用採購法所以是違法了嘛你現在又有問題我不知道說到底農業部跟續產會之間關係是什麼"},{"start":136.01,"end":147.224,"text":"因為續產會你未來會跟他不會跟他拒絕往來嗎你還會透過很多補助給他去採購很多農產品嗎那你到底有沒有在監督他你到底是什麼管制還有一開始第一時間為什麼是推脫"},{"start":149.454,"end":162.25,"text":"我跟委員說明就是續展會跟農業部的關係是我們農業部是它的督導單位所以續展會的所有的行政方面的部分我們農業部都有權利去做相關的調查你們農業部一開始面對外界質疑說續展會是用自有資金買"},{"start":168.158,"end":189.538,"text":"這是兩件事情齁就是我都從續產會本身的管理的部分農業部是負責督導的我們有權利去做相關的行政的一個查核這個部分是是沒問題的那第二個部分就是續產會如果有一個產交條件他用自有資金先用了以後跟農業跟農業部請款的時候那就要付"},{"start":189.858,"end":216.087,"text":"有一部分是符合政府採購法就要政府採購法不符合政府採購法的部分我們就會50%以下那另外一類就是111年這一類他是在年度先核計劃年度先核計劃的時候他如果後續沒有照相關的規範的時候那不符合規範的我們錢都會收回來當然嘛可是你這個就是後見之明沒有以理論上來講你現在續產會是來解決國內大家缺氮的問題所以農業部才會補助他一筆錢讓他去採購是"},{"start":217.728,"end":243.709,"text":"所以你先前就要跟他講清楚啊我們在採購的時候比如說要符合採購法規範你但可以不用公開不用符合採購法但是你其他運費冷鏈你要符合採購法你連這一點事情你們都無法督導還要事後說你來跟我請款的時候我少給一點那我就覺得非常奇怪續產會不是大部分資金來源都是農業部嗎那這也都是人民的納稅錢啊你看他少請的他如果虧本的話最後還不是很多時候農業部也是要補助給他"},{"start":244.449,"end":263.808,"text":"所以為什麽不能事先解決一定要事後這個事情啪啪之後然後才要說喔那這個事情已經被外界知道了所以呢這個補助我們要減一半不過我想啊這樣農業部的態度非常消極欸這個部分就是相關的這些補助案本身他就部長我只是想問你啦接下來還會不會發生一樣的狀況"},{"start":264.989,"end":293.329,"text":"就是說你透過續產會要解決國內的某一個農產品稀缺的問題然後一樣讓他先去買然後他不合法之後呢你再叫他追繳所以未來還會發生一樣狀況我想不是說不合法以後才去追繳沒有符合採購法就是不合法我開始剛才有跟其他委員講這個是續產會本身在這個雞蛋的採購過程中的倉儲他們是誤解的以為是他是跟著雞蛋一起一條包裝的所以後來他們了解"},{"start":294.11,"end":309.69,"text":"部長,理論上來講續產會跟你的關係非常密切嘛續產會董事長是林聰賢嘛以前是農業部嘛應該也是官派的嘛所以密切一個單位結果會讓他誤解那農業部都完全沒責任一部就是說沒關係我就少給你一點錢好像所有責任都是續產會"},{"start":311.773,"end":331.648,"text":"應該不是這樣吧部長 農業部對於去產會完全沒有任何督導跟管理的責任我們負有督導的責任 是嘛 所以我說相關的有很多的行政的疏失當然就是過去的事情要追究要追究 我現在講的時候那未來勒因為我現在跟部長詢答的感覺是說 都覺得你沒有錯嘛 都覺得說那是去產會的事情嘛"},{"start":332.228,"end":346.512,"text":"我講政府部門就要依法行事那相關的規範就要符合政府採購法這是一個大原則你若違反的話若你是惡意的故意的沒有問題是說未來農業部對於續產會是不是還是一樣的放任是不是我們絕對不會我們已經在加強續產會的管理了就是說續產會採購的時候又誤解了然後又沒有透過公開採購政府採購法又繞過了然後"},{"start":359.215,"end":387.438,"text":"然後農業部再說那我少給你補助 這樣無止境循環會發生這樣的狀況嗎你有沒有把握說未來跟巨產會的監督到位我們一定會更積極的去監督這個那相關的成功率有沒有能不能不上次另外一回事喔因為現在檢調在查我就不臆測但是我現在在問農業部的你的官方行政責任嘛第二有關於超市跟量財的關係到底查清楚沒有為什麼巨產會是跟量財簽約付錢付給超市為什麼"},{"start":389.032,"end":408.095,"text":"這個亮彩跟超思他本身的司法人的關係我們行政協沒辦法去理我問你們行政調查也可以知道阿行政調查沒辦法去調查他們司法人的包括委任跟債權的關係所以我們已經請掉你問一下續產會你都沒辦法問喔你都沒辦法問續產會說為什麼你是跟亮彩簽約他還是付錢給超思這沒辦法問嗎我告訴你我們不會聽信任的一方的齁"},{"start":409.036,"end":409.497,"text":"所以農業部沒有問的意思嗎?"},{"start":425.299,"end":441.712,"text":"所以你連查都沒有查嗎?你連到現在為止大家外界關心的操司跟量產關係你都還沒有去釐清是這個意思嗎?我們推給司法嘛我告訴你我覺得這個是一個必須要釐清的但是以政務部門的行政權沒有辦法去釐清這件事情所以我們剛剛我前面在跟你講的是說農業部和續產會的關係你要督導續產會在採購要符合一定的規定嘛"},{"start":449.378,"end":470.273,"text":"基本上你跟A廠商簽約卻付款給B廠商這非常罕見的結果你正在一個督導的責任你連問說為什麼他是這樣的行為你都說那跟你沒關係推給司法那你農業部到底要怎麼去怎麼去管理續船會的待遇我覺得委員你齁要把事情分清楚齁我剛才說的司法人的關係是量財跟超市之間的無法的沒關係"},{"start":471.354,"end":496.837,"text":"當然可以處理嘛因為你是管理單位嘛你是督導單位嘛你要不要做而已嘛我真不相信農業部每年補助那麼多錢給續產會你連問這個你都不能問我真的不相信啦我真的不相信啦我問不出答案沒有關係但所有人都看得出來農業部對於續產會就是這個態度嘛連大家這麼關心的超市跟量產的關係你都說那是司法關係跟我們沒有關係"},{"start":499.62,"end":514.014,"text":"我們希望說續產會因為既然這個問題大家關心你就要去查我希望是這樣那國人也希望知道真相農業部不查我覺得是失職謝謝好 謝謝大家都希望知道真相"}]}},{"id":"154377","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154377","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c117bd2c7e4f074a621a3f23b3ad13ea2ef8091c70453fc49a3fdef050e3855615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"12:06:46 - 12:14:46","影片長度":"00:08:00","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T12:06:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T12:14:46+08:00","duration":480,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1084,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（12時7分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你有沒有察覺最近石虎、草鴞、穿山甲這些瀕臨絕種的保育類動物被遊蕩犬咬死的新聞特別多？"],["陳部長駿季：我有發現現在特別是路殺的部分，其實穿山甲是排名第一……"],["洪委員申翰：我不是說路殺，我是說被遊蕩犬咬死。"],["陳部長駿季：遊蕩犬的部分，其實石虎是比例滿高的。"],["洪委員申翰：從你們農業部統計的資料來看，去年（2023年）在保育類及所有野生動物被犬隻攻擊的案件裡面，都是近5年來的新高，這個數字代表了確實現在遊蕩犬的問題是越來越嚴重的。這個問題其實不是只是野生動物被咬死這麼簡單，我們都知道，很多遊蕩犬到了野外會跟野生動物相互傳染疾病，很多科學研究也顯示目前犬隻跑到野外之後，健康狀況更差，存活率不到一半，所以變成犬隻與野生動物幾乎都是兩敗俱傷的狀況。部長，我要問的是，犬隻是你們動保司管理的，對不對？野生動物保育是林保署，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員申翰：都在農業部，所以部長，針對這個問題，你們打算怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我想針對這個部分，動保司及林保署、包括我們都曾經討論過，現在我們會針對野生動物的熱區部分先做那個地區的犬隻調查，然後去處理。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你看下面這個新聞，這是今年5月18日的新聞，這個新聞上面寫著熱區移置遊蕩犬，就是你剛剛說的……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["洪委員申翰：試辦三個月沒下文，為什麼這個新聞會這樣寫？"],["陳部長駿季：我可不可以請動保司司長說明一下？"],["洪委員申翰：好。"],["江司長文全：報告委員，因為去年年底臨時提了一個三個月期的計畫，我們今年是併入整個流浪犬控制族群計畫裡面，所以並沒有暫停，而是針對這幾個地區特別地擴大，尤其是這幾個核心的縣市。"],["洪委員申翰：司長，如果你們確定接下來這些計畫是擴大的，也沒有暫停，我覺得要跟外界說清楚，現在有很多擔心遊蕩犬的人看到這個新聞，都覺得為什麼農業部接下來沒有動作了？我覺得對外說明清楚的部分要趕快解釋清楚，而不是現在讓……我在外面一直看到這個新聞，大家都在傳。"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我們會來說明清楚，特別是臺中、南投跟苗栗地區。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，我當然肯定，如果你們要擴大做的部分，在態度上面，我是肯定的，但我也看了一下今年你們在石虎跟草鴞熱區的計畫，也請教了一些專家學者，其實我們也發現有不少可以改進的空間，第一個事情是在KPI的部分。部長，你們年度目標寫遊蕩犬處置率80%，但我很好奇，如果100隻處置80隻，但後面又再新增了100隻，這個處置率還有什麼意義呢？你們這並不是整體的母數。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["洪委員申翰：原本的100隻，你處置80隻，但你沒有去管會不會有新的跑進來，會不會有新的增加，所以部長，針對這個KPI，你們覺得需不需要修改？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我最近在看各單位比較細的這些KPI的部分，不只是這個，還有其他的KPI，我都覺得要嘛就是純粹一個數字的概念而已，並沒有回應到我們最後的政策目的在哪邊，所以我會要求很多後續他們在針對KPI的部分，一定要更充分去跟我們的政策目標做連結。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我覺得這個很明顯是在邏輯上面的問題，所以部長，如果你覺得OK的話，關於這個KPI怎麼設定、怎麼設計，我覺得應該都要一併的檢討。至少我們可以從生態熱區先來，因為有蠻多的學者跟我說，確實生態熱區跟人類聚集的地方，其實它的樣態是不太一樣的，我覺得至少這可以先來，我們先來檢討KPI，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，我接下來也要問，其實我們現在在法規上關於飼主的責任是有明確規範的，不管是寵物登記，不管是絕育、施打疫苗、不可棄養，其實我們都有法源依據，但現在問題是每次我們跟動保司討論，動保司就跟我們說因為人力不足，雖然法規都有，所以很難落實執法，這是現在的問題，可是我們明明看到遊蕩犬越來越多，但是執法端卻一直說資源不足、人力不足，部長，你覺得該怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我們之前也跟人事行政總處那邊去爭取，像動保法的動保人力，包括重要部分，跟地方縣市政府的人力也要增加，這個是正常人力，另外一個是用計畫人力……"],["洪委員申翰：我們現在變成是這些法規擺著不動、擺著好看，不會有人因為這個受罰。部長，我有一個建議，我們剛剛都講到生態熱區的問題，有沒有可能我們的執法就在生態熱區來優先執法、優先進行管理？生態熱區的範圍當然比整體來說都小，也更聚集，如果資源不足的話，至少在生態熱區上面，我們就按照法規來，你要有一定的宣導期，我也贊成，你可以在生態熱區有幾個月、一年的宣導期，讓大家都知道我接下來開始要管理這些事情，我也都同意，可是我們不能把法規擺著都不動。"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我非常同意先從生態熱區開始，包括你人力的投入、資源的投入可以從這邊開始。"],["洪委員申翰：投入是一回事，但我剛剛說的是管理和執法面……"],["陳部長駿季：要結合執法面。"],["洪委員申翰：對，也要開始著手進行。"],["陳部長駿季：對，是這樣子。"],["洪委員申翰：我知道，也許整個臺灣的範圍很大，你們人力確實不足，但至少這些地方重點區域是可以開始的，這部分你要有個宣導期，我也不反對，這樣好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們從這個地方優先開始。"],["陳部長駿季：我同意用這樣的方式。"],["洪委員申翰：最後一個，主席再給我1分鐘，我們現在看到很多這些相關的計畫，其實大家都抱怨，農業部有點像關起門來自己做，部長，我是想要求我們這些相關的，包括資訊的公開，包括相關計畫書成效的評估，其實都應該定期的公開。最後一個，我是想要請部長，這是很多我們生態界的專家學者們請我一定要跟你反映的，我們應該訂一個定期檢討的機制，這個定期檢討機制裡面，有關於資料的公開、資訊的公開的部分，讓外部的學者、外部的各個專業者一起來參與，而不會讓大家都覺得農業部好像自己搞自己的，外面也不知道你在搞什麼，也拿不到數據、拿不到資料，可是外面只有看到遊蕩犬的數字一直增加，這麼多被咬死的新聞，很擔心啊！部長可以嗎？一個資訊公開定期檢討的機制，看是要半年，也許半年一個週期或多少時間一個週期，讓大家可以參與，這應該很簡單吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我絕對同意這樣的作法，不只是在流浪犬這些東西，其他地方其實也應該朝這方面，特別是跟民眾有關的。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，可不可以用兩個月的時間，你剛才答應了我好幾件事情，這些事情給我相關的規劃，在兩個月的時間內給我這些規劃，應該沒有問題吧？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪申翰委員。","接下來我們請葉元之委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":1.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.71846875,"end":3.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.90596875,"end":18.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.62721875,"end":19.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.54159375,"end":27.047843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.55409375,"end":27.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.296593750000003,"end":30.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.65471875,"end":32.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.71784375,"end":36.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.78471875,"end":42.555968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.17596875,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.03596875,"end":50.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.63034375,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.697843750000004,"end":53.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.039093750000006,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.86596875,"end":59.869718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.62096875,"end":59.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.08909375,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.21909375,"end":66.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.67034375,"end":68.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.89784375,"end":74.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.87159375,"end":80.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.74409375,"end":85.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.55346875000001,"end":89.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.46846875,"end":92.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.97846875,"end":97.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.97346875000001,"end":99.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.48784375000001,"end":101.71971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.63096875000001,"end":104.87534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.43221875,"end":109.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.38096875000001,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.06846875000001,"end":113.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.78534375000001,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.96659375,"end":122.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.40409375,"end":123.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.63596875,"end":126.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.35284375,"end":129.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.56346875,"end":131.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.16221875000002,"end":133.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.19596875000002,"end":133.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.03534375,"end":136.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.20784375,"end":141.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.44346875000002,"end":143.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.75534375,"end":144.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.81846875000002,"end":146.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.97846875000002,"end":146.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.99534375000002,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.15096875,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.02596875,"end":167.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.90346875,"end":167.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.92034375,"end":168.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.27471875,"end":168.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.46034375000002,"end":168.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.47721875000002,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.48534375,"end":172.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.23596875,"end":174.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.61534375000002,"end":178.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.58534375000002,"end":179.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.12096875,"end":180.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.55971875,"end":182.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.70284375,"end":186.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.56721875000002,"end":192.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.35096875000002,"end":197.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.36284375000002,"end":198.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.56096875,"end":204.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.16346875000002,"end":208.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.11221875,"end":213.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.57971875,"end":220.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.05971875,"end":222.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.25784375,"end":227.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.63221875000002,"end":231.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.29409375,"end":235.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.96034375000002,"end":242.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.87909375,"end":244.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.58346875,"end":246.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.22034375,"end":254.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.60721875000002,"end":256.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.08784375,"end":257.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.06659375000004,"end":262.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.80846875000003,"end":268.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.36034375,"end":271.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.08971875000003,"end":292.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.04221875,"end":279.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.37096875000003,"end":281.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.43846875,"end":281.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.47534375000004,"end":288.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.93034375,"end":295.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.54596875000004,"end":297.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.95909375,"end":304.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.87784375,"end":306.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.39659375,"end":314.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.95221875000004,"end":315.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.52159375,"end":323.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.84096875,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.97596875,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.02971875000003,"end":333.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.03784375000004,"end":339.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.03284375000004,"end":342.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.13346875,"end":345.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.03596875,"end":348.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.24659375000005,"end":349.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.73159375,"end":352.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.86596875000004,"end":355.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.97534375000004,"end":358.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.26596875,"end":366.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.26096875,"end":364.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.97784375000003,"end":374.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.72346875000005,"end":375.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.56721875000005,"end":376.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.96784375000004,"end":377.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.74409375000005,"end":377.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.76096875,"end":384.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.86534375,"end":402.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.29971875,"end":387.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.06721875000005,"end":390.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.13721875000005,"end":403.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.05659375000005,"end":405.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.31346875,"end":410.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.93721875,"end":413.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.70471875000004,"end":417.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.72096875000005,"end":452.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.43284375,"end":457.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.28846875000005,"end":462.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.67596875000004,"end":468.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.63284375,"end":468.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.83534375000005,"end":469.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.64534375000005,"end":479.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.58909375,"end":478.82534375000006}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.209,"end":18.062,"text":"接下來我們請洪申翰委員請做詢談謝謝主席 請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":26.59,"end":42.372,"text":"委員 部長 你有沒有察覺最近石虎、草蕭、穿山甲這些瀕臨絕種的保育類的動物其實被遊蕩犬咬死的新聞特別多"},{"start":44.656,"end":56.297,"text":"我有發現其實現在特別是入沙的部分那其實川山甲是排名第一我是說被遊蕩犬那遊蕩犬的部分其實食物是比例蠻高的"},{"start":57.406,"end":73.654,"text":"從你們農業部統計的數量來看去年2023年在保育類跟所有野生動物被犬隻攻擊的案件裡面其實都是近5年來的新高那這數字大概代表了確實現在遊蕩犬的問題其實是越來越嚴重的"},{"start":74.929,"end":98.036,"text":"那這問題其實不是只是野生動物被咬死這麼簡單其實我們都知道很多的遊蕩犬他到了野外是會跟我們的野生動物相互傳染疾病的那很多科學也研究目前其實犬隻跑到野外他們健康狀況其實更差存活率不到一半所以這個狀況變成是犬隻跟野生動物幾乎都是兩敗俱傷的狀況那部長我要問"},{"start":102.954,"end":130.339,"text":"捲枝是你們動保司管理嘛對不對那野生動物保育是林保署對不對是那都在農業部所以部長針對這個問題你們打算怎麼辦我想我們針對這個部分其實那個動保司跟那個林保署包括我們都曾經討論過那現在就是我們會針對就是野生動物的熱區的部分先去做這個那個地區的捲枝的調查"},{"start":132.239,"end":137.865,"text":"這是今年5月18日的新聞這新聞上面寫說熱區移植有當權就你剛才說的事辦三個月沒下文為什麼這個新聞會這樣我可不可以請我們的動保司長說明一下"},{"start":150.462,"end":154.025,"text":"市長,如果你們確定接下來這些計畫是擴大的,也沒有暫停,那我覺得要跟外界說清楚"},{"start":175.823,"end":197.421,"text":"現在有很多擔心遊蕩犬的人他們其實看到這個新聞那都覺得那為什麼農業部接下來沒有動作了我覺得對外說明清楚的部分要趕快解釋清楚而不是現在讓這樣子我在外面一直看到這個新聞大家都在傳啊我們會來說明清楚特別是台東南投跟苗栗的地區"},{"start":198.662,"end":226.808,"text":"部長,我當然肯定如果你們接一下擴大座的部分在態度上面我是肯定的但我也看了一下今年你們在十五跟草霄熱區的計畫那也請教了一些專家學者其實我們也發現有不少可以改進的空間第一個事情是在KPI的部分部長,你們年度目標寫遊蕩權儲值率80%但我很好奇如果100隻去儲值了80隻但如果後面又再新增了100隻"},{"start":229.67,"end":231.481,"text":"那這個處置率還有什麼意義呢?"},{"start":233.359,"end":262.265,"text":"你們這並不是整體的母數啊原本的100隻你處置80隻但你沒有去管那會不會有新的跑進來會不會有新的增加啊所以部長針對這個KPI你們覺得需不需要修改我跟委員說明齁我最近在看比較細的這些各單位的這些KPI的部分不只是這個啦還有其他的那些KPI我就覺得要麼就是純粹一個數字的概念而已並沒有要回應到我們最後的政策的目的在哪邊所以我會就要求很多"},{"start":262.865,"end":275.113,"text":"拜託,我覺得這個是很明顯的在邏輯上面的問題。所以,布朗如果你覺得OK的話,我是覺得關於這個KPI怎麼設定怎麼設計,我覺得都應該有一併的檢討。至少我們可以從生態熱區先來。因為有蠻多的學者跟我說,確實生態熱區跟這個人類聚集的地方,其實它的樣態是不太一樣的部分。我覺得至少這可以先來。我們先來檢討KPI可以嗎?"},{"start":293.586,"end":313.487,"text":"我接下來也要問其實我們現在在法規上關於事主的責任是有明確的規範的不管是寵物登記啦不管是絕育啦施打疫苗啦不可棄養啦其實我們都有法源依據但現在問題是每次我們跟董老師討論董老師就跟我們說因為人力不足雖然法規都有所以很難落實執法"},{"start":315.009,"end":342.104,"text":"這是現在的問題可是我們明明看到遊蕩權越來越多但是執法端卻一直說資源不足、人力不足部長你覺得該怎麼辦我想我們之前也跟人事行政總書那邊去爭取像動保法的動保的人力包括中央的部分跟地方縣政府的人力也要增加這個是正常的另外一個是用計劃人力我們現在變得是這些法規擺著不動擺著好看"},{"start":343.188,"end":351.163,"text":"不會有人因為這受罰 不然我有一個建議啊我們剛剛都講到生態熱區的問題我們有沒有可能我們的執法就在生態熱區來優先執法"},{"start":354.199,"end":374.077,"text":"先進行管理生態熱區的範圍當然比整體來說都小也更聚集如果資源不足的話至少在生態熱區上面我們就按照法規來你要有一定的宣導期我也贊成你可以在生態熱區有個幾個月一年的宣導期讓大家都知道我接下來開始要管理這些事情我也都同意"},{"start":374.798,"end":402.846,"text":"可是我們不能法規擺著都不動阿瞭解我想我非常同意喔就先從生態樂區開始包括你人力的投入資源的投入可以從那邊開始投入是一回事但我剛剛現在說的是要截而法變對也要開始著手進行我知道也許整個台灣的範圍很大你們人力確實不足但至少這些地方重點區域是可以開始的這部分你要有個宣導期我也不反對這樣好不好不然我們從這個地方我同意用這樣的方式"},{"start":403.246,"end":421.36,"text":"最後一個我要要求主席再給我一分鐘我們現在看到很多這些相關的計劃農業部其實大家都抱怨啦有點像關起門來自己做啦部長我其實是要求我們這些相關的包括資訊的公開包括你相關計劃書成效的評估其實都應該定期的公開"},{"start":422.26,"end":449.589,"text":"最後一個我是想要請部長這是很多我們生態界的專家學者們請我一定要跟你反映的我們應該定一個定期檢討的機制那這個定期檢討的機制裡面有關於資料的公開資訊的公開的部分讓外部的學者外部的各個專業者一起來參與而不會讓大家都覺得說你好像農業部自己搞自己的外面也不知道你在搞什麼也拿不到數據拿不到資料可是外面只有看到遊蕩犬的數字一直增加"},{"start":450.049,"end":477.756,"text":"然後這麼多被咬死的新聞很擔心啊部長可以嗎一個資訊公開定期檢討的機制看是要半年也許半年一個週期或多少時間一個週期讓大家可以參與這應該很簡單吧對我覺得同意這樣的做法不只是在流浪犬這些東西其他地方其實也應該朝這樣這方面特別是跟民眾有關的那部長可不可以在兩個月的時間你剛才答應了我好幾件事情這些事情給我相關的規劃在兩個月的時間內給我這些規劃應該沒有問題吧可以好謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"154376","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154376","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c6bcdc1c728c06b5221a3f23b3ad13ea2ef8091c70453fc49f2c2abc92875f3cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:56:58 - 12:06:17","影片長度":"00:09:19","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:56:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T12:06:17+08:00","duration":559,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1002,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時57分）主席謝謝，麻煩請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：陳部長，我想還是關心一下國人都非常重視的問題，從去年到今年大家都想要知道超思雞蛋弊案爭議到底為何？去年9月的時候，包括臺北、新北、桃園、臺中、高雄五個地檢署都說有接獲民眾告發或是檢方的剪報分案，依食安法或是偽造文書五路齊發分案調查，今天有平面媒體報導說九個月了都沒有約談任何相關人士，你自己也證實說你沒有被約談。"],["陳部長駿季：我本人並沒有接受到約談。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你知道農業部有沒有相關人士有被約談或是……"],["陳部長駿季：這個我沒有去詢問。"],["洪委員孟楷：你沒有去詢問？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我沒有去詢問，所以我無法確認。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你覺得超思雞蛋這個爭議到現在一年多的時間了，到底對農業部的形象好或不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得對農業部來講……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果真的有人謀不臧，那就查出來；如果真的沒有，那就還農業部清白，還辛苦的業務同仁清白。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這是我的原則，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，那怎麼會您自己也不關心、也不瞭解？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我強調的是檢調單位查處如果發現有人不法，我絕不會寬貸，但是如果沒有不法，也要還我們同仁一個清白。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，但九個月過去了，都還沒有讓國人釐清。"],["陳部長駿季：相對的，我要特別提到……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，您的態度是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我想能夠透過程序把事情釐清是最重要的，但現在看到的就是在檢調單位還沒有確認之前，有很多外界的聲音，其實讓同仁非常困擾，因為以農業部來講……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果讓同仁覺得困擾，才更應該趕快水落石出嘛，因為越滾越大，從陳吉仲部長到現在的你，一樣都是陳部長，我覺得現在國人關注的重點是到底真相為何？不管是超思雞蛋那時候花5.7億去做補助、不管是從巴西進口八千多顆的雞蛋，現在到底真相為何？還有簽約是A公司，結果付款是B公司，到現在已經9個月過去了，今天看到這樣的媒體報導，結果本席看到你回應媒體的是說：我們也希望檢調儘速。如果要儘速的話，機關不是更應該主動積極協助辦理嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：檢調如果有任何的約談或什麼，我們都會提供……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以看起來你沒有被約談？"],["陳部長駿季：我是沒被約談。"],["洪委員孟楷：下面同仁呢？就你瞭解也沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有去問，所以我不清楚。我沒有問同仁……"],["洪委員孟楷：到底有沒有？有沒有人知道？"],["陳部長駿季：我們同仁說目前沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：也沒有，那看起來前部長陳吉仲也沒有，所以都沒有，國人那麼關心的案件，結果檢調到現在連……難怪媒體會用頭版頭來報導啊！9個月了，無進度嘛！","部長，我再請教，今天我看到裡面有提到，因為採購生鮮雞蛋、帶殼雞蛋是屬於生鮮的農漁產品，非屬採購法的採購標的，但是冷藏、倉儲及雞蛋托運費用是全額補助，依規定適用採購法，但沒有用採購法辦理，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：從行政調查報告是這樣子顯示。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我們現在是要追回五成的補助款？"],["陳部長駿季：對，針對它應該適用政府採購法的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：你的理由是什麼？會認為它應該用採購法，但沒有用採購法？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我花30秒的時間說明一下，就是當初畜產會在處理這個案子的時候，它認為因為雞蛋不適用政府採購法，後續的倉儲及運輸，他們覺得是……因為相對進來少，它覺得應該是一批的，但是後來我們行政調查我們的……"],["洪委員孟楷：看起來是便宜行事？"],["陳部長駿季：對，然後行政單位去看後面兩個應該要適用採購法，根據這個東西，我們會依法把這個錢追回來。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以照理講……我們想請教，中央畜產會到底應不應該遵守採購法？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，它用自己的資金都不用，只要牽涉到跟政府補助的才有所謂的適不適用政府採購法的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：它的資金來源呢？不也是我們會有相關的補助嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，在110年它是一個例行的產銷調節，所以它有計畫上來，我們有核計畫下去，那有核計畫下去的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：核計畫下去也算是政府補助，不是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以說它不適用的時候，就要追回。"],["洪委員孟楷：就要追回？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那我們來看一下去年的公文，工程會已經明白確認了冷凍蛋液及冷凍蛋黃是冷凍處理，非屬生鮮農漁產品，適用採購法。去年有什麼樣的狀況？去年的狀況是畜產會之前都是用巴西進口的冷凍蛋液及冷凍蛋黃，不依政府採購法辦理，所以沒有依照政府採購法辦理就直接來做採購，這樣是不是也算是違反採購法？"],["陳部長駿季：這是112年的嘛。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是112年、2023年啊。"],["陳部長駿季：112年的部分是所有的作業都是畜產會先用它自有資金處理，我們後面的計畫……核定補助的時候是在後面，所以它不符合政府採購法的，我們就給它50%以下，所以沒有所謂的追繳問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以部長，我們的冷凍蛋黃及冷凍蛋液有給它50%以下嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：就是給它50%啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有啊！之前去年巴西進口的冷凍蛋黃及冷凍蛋液也是一樣，直接讓它做採購啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：你並沒有讓它去用採購法裡面不管是招標或是相關的規定啊！"],["陳部長駿季：它如果沒用採購法的話，我們的補助就是低於50%，就這樣子。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有，這個是去年……本席現在拿出來的資料是去年10月的時候有委員在質詢審計長，審計長講說這些狀況要去釐清，結果審計長就說三個月內調查完畢。目前調查狀況呢？審計長那時候講說確實存在爭議待釐清，要先確認雞蛋是不是生鮮漁農產品，還有冷凍蛋液及冷凍蛋黃是不是生鮮漁農產品。去年的時候我們林為洲委員拿出這個公文，就說我們在10月3日的時候就問工程會到底冷凍蛋黃及冷凍蛋液是不是農漁產品，工程會說不是嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在三個月過去了，我們到底有沒有去……有交回50%嗎？有低於50%嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我現在確認的一件事情就是，冷凍蛋液經過公共工程委員會的說明，要適用政府採購法。"],["洪委員孟楷：適用採購法嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：然後只要是適用政府採購法，如果政府的經費已經補助下去了，我就會收回；如果還沒補助的話，我一定低於50%，就這樣子。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以現在本席就要確認，因為今天媒體已經報導你的冷藏倉儲及托櫃費用要收回50%嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在要問，過去補助的冷凍蛋黃、冷凍蛋液有沒有要去瞭解？"],["陳部長駿季：我會去瞭解，我會瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是如果有補助100%，也要收回50%？"],["陳部長駿季：一定！一定！"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在只問是不是一體適用啦。"],["陳部長駿季：對，一定一體適用，就是112年部分，如果它該適用政府採購法卻沒適用的話就會追回，但如果它先買了、我們核定補助在後的時候，我就一定不會超過50%。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以這個就是重點。什麼時候可以把資料釐清？因為之前就是有爆發中央畜產會去購買巴西或相關的冷凍蛋液及冷凍蛋黃，它沒有用採購法，也直接用合約的方式就直接採購了，所以才會讓我們去年有這樣的疑慮，並且要求審計部去做瞭解，審計部說三個月要給資料，到目前也是不了了之。本席就直接請教，因為你們已經講了，冷凍倉儲只要是符合採購法的，追回50%……"],["陳部長駿季：以下。"],["洪委員孟楷：一樣地，冷凍蛋黃、冷凍蛋液符合採購法的，這您剛剛已經承認了，工程會也發公文了，現在什麼時候要去釐清到底過去有哪一些是100%補助要追回50%的？"],["陳部長駿季：我想委員是不是可以給我一個禮拜的時間，讓畜產會把這個資料調出來？"],["洪委員孟楷：一個禮拜……"],["陳部長駿季：的時間去把它調出來，調出來的如果非常清楚，我會把我們到底有沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以包含冷凍蛋黃、冷凍蛋液？"],["陳部長駿季：對，最主要就是冷凍蛋黃該……"],["洪委員孟楷：符合採購法的……"],["陳部長駿季：該用採購法的部分，我會把它挑出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，一個禮拜的時間，請給本席及經濟委員會委員資料釐清。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。部長，這個事情從去年到現在，每一個委員要問的大概都是你們可以提供的，請一定趕快去整理，不要讓外界認為一個政府怎麼光光一個蛋卻釐不清、也說不清，這樣對我們政府的形象也不好，所以您就一次把它釐清，然後給社會大眾，好不好？謝謝。","接下來請洪申翰委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3215937500000003,"end":3.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.835968750000001,"end":5.920343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.77221875,"end":10.425968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.898468750000003,"end":12.012218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.69471875,"end":33.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.43159375,"end":28.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.135343750000004,"end":45.188468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.57659375,"end":49.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.875343750000006,"end":69.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.625343750000006,"end":58.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.21409375,"end":71.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.31096875,"end":76.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.90159375,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.69409375000001,"end":82.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.01846875000001,"end":81.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.62159375,"end":81.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.65534375,"end":82.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.97159375000001,"end":100.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.38909375,"end":84.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.16409375,"end":97.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.42471875000001,"end":99.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.28096875,"end":111.49034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.16534375,"end":118.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.18971875000001,"end":140.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.07221875000002,"end":148.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.47596875000002,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.28971875000002,"end":158.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.07784375,"end":160.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.59221875,"end":166.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.94159375,"end":177.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.64159375,"end":172.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.76346875000002,"end":173.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.69096875000002,"end":179.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.58909375000002,"end":181.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.62284375000002,"end":183.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.93471875,"end":186.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.66846875000002,"end":187.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.38971875000001,"end":194.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.18596875,"end":197.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.37971875000002,"end":198.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.22346875000002,"end":202.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.35784375,"end":216.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.58784375000002,"end":217.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.98846875,"end":222.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.61221875,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.18159375000002,"end":225.32909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.64971875,"end":226.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.73409375000003,"end":226.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.67909375000002,"end":229.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.58159375000002,"end":229.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.03721875000002,"end":232.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.29846875,"end":232.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.31534375,"end":237.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.34909375,"end":234.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.16659375,"end":250.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.55284375000002,"end":252.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.97034375,"end":254.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.01221875000002,"end":267.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.88534375,"end":257.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.84221875000003,"end":262.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.68971875,"end":269.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.87909375000004,"end":273.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.30471875,"end":273.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.11471875,"end":274.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.43096875000003,"end":277.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.97909375,"end":282.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.88534375,"end":284.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.45909375,"end":285.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.43346875000003,"end":291.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.83346875,"end":303.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.19096875,"end":299.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.03846875,"end":306.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.63721875000005,"end":306.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.14346875,"end":308.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.64909375,"end":319.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.43659375000004,"end":324.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.75221875,"end":337.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.64909375,"end":339.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.60659375,"end":341.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.39534375,"end":341.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.07034375,"end":342.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.08721875000003,"end":346.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.33534375000005,"end":362.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.62846875,"end":373.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.01159375000003,"end":367.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.23846875000004,"end":373.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.55909375000005,"end":376.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.03971875,"end":381.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.45659375,"end":382.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.68846875,"end":401.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.08909375,"end":384.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.43221875,"end":408.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.24971875,"end":429.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.87159375000005,"end":425.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.49971875,"end":429.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.51659375,"end":429.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.78659375,"end":430.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.49534375,"end":430.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.52909375,"end":430.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.96784375000004,"end":450.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.92971875,"end":433.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.03409375,"end":440.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.34596875000005,"end":441.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.93534375,"end":455.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.77409375,"end":456.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.36034375,"end":464.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.51221875000005,"end":458.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.24534375,"end":464.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.27909375,"end":464.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.65034375000005,"end":474.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.65846875000005,"end":466.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.02971875000003,"end":467.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.65409375,"end":483.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.93909375000004,"end":480.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.65159375,"end":490.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.03034375000004,"end":492.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.43909375000004,"end":505.43721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.01096875,"end":520.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.04659375,"end":532.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.2490937499999,"end":521.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.28284375,"end":521.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.1515937500001,"end":524.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.09534375,"end":538.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.84971875,"end":544.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.04284375,"end":549.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.2790937500001,"end":547.4053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.6497187500001,"end":550.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.2234687499999,"end":553.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.78409375,"end":554.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.9653437500001,"end":555.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.30284375,"end":555.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.77534375,"end":557.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.99471875,"end":557.1084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.4797187500001,"end":558.44159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.804,"end":10.204,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":18.735,"end":23.618,"text":"臺北新北桃園臺中高雄五個地檢署都說有接獲到民眾告發或是檢方的檢報分案依時安法或是偽造文書五路期發分案調查"},{"start":42.068,"end":69.373,"text":"那到今天有平面媒體報導說9個月了都沒有任何約談相關人士你自己也證實說你沒有被約談我本人我並沒有接受到約談那知道我們農業部有沒有相關人士有被約談或是這個我就沒有去詢問你沒有去詢問對我沒有去詢問所以我確認部長你覺得超思雞蛋這個爭議到現在一年多的時間了到底對農業部的形象好不好"},{"start":70.43,"end":97.263,"text":"我覺得會不會希望也如果說真的有人謀不章查出來如果真的沒有還農業部清白還業務同仁辛苦清白這是我的原則所以說那怎麼會您自己也不關心也不了解沒有我強調的就是說檢調單位查處本身如果說有不能不法我覺得不會寬待但是如果沒有不法也要還我們同仁一個清白是啊那但是9個月過去了都還沒有都還沒有讓國人釐清相對的齁"},{"start":99.606,"end":110.661,"text":"部長您的態度是什麼我想能夠把事情透過程序裡面把事情釐清是最重要的但是現在看到的就是在司法還沒有就是檢調單位還沒有"},{"start":112.673,"end":139.611,"text":"確認之前有很多外界的聲音就讓其實讓同仁非常困擾因為以農業部來講就是讓同仁如果說覺得困擾才更應該趕快水落石出嘛因為越滾越大從陳吉仲部長到現在你一樣都是陳部長啊但是我覺得現在國人關注的重點是到底真相為何不管是說超市雞蛋那時候花5.7億來去做補助不管說進口了這個"},{"start":141.272,"end":160.33,"text":"一億多顆的這個雞蛋八千多顆的雞蛋巴西來的那到現在到底真相為何還有這個不同公司簽約是A公司然後結果付款是B公司那九個月過去而今天看到這樣的一個媒體結果本席看到你回應媒體講是說我們也希望減掉建樹"},{"start":161.618,"end":187.514,"text":"那如果說競速號不是更應該要我們主動積極、機關主動積極的協助來辦理嗎?對,我想檢調如果任何的一個約談或是...所以看起來你沒有被約談?我是沒被約談。下面同仁就你了解也沒有?我沒有去問,所以我不清楚。那到底有沒有人知道?我們同仁說目前沒有。也沒有。那看起來前部長陳吉仲也沒有。所以都沒有?"},{"start":188.647,"end":193.45,"text":"國人那麼關心的一個案件結果剪掉到現在也難怪媒體會用頭版頭來報導啊九個月了無盡度嘛"},{"start":199.265,"end":209.735,"text":"來部長那我再請教今天我更看到的是裡面有提到一個是說因為採購生鮮雞蛋帶殼雞蛋是屬於生鮮的農漁產品非屬採購法的採購標的但是冷藏倉儲跟雞蛋托運費用是全額補助那依規定是用採購法那沒有用採購法辦理對不對"},{"start":224.429,"end":234.314,"text":"從昨天調查報告是這樣子顯示的那我們現在是要追回五成的補助款對針對他應該用適用這種採購法的部分你的理由是什麼會認為是說他應該用採購法他沒有用採購法"},{"start":240.093,"end":254.29,"text":"這個我想我發30秒的時間說明一下就是當初續產會在處理這個案子的時候他認為因為雞蛋不是用政府採購法那後續的倉儲跟運輸他們覺得是因為他相對進的少他覺得應該是一批的啦"},{"start":255.171,"end":282.057,"text":"但是後來我們行政調查看起來是便宜形式對 然後行政單位去看說後面兩個應該適合採購法那根據這個東西我們會依法把這個錢把它追回來所以照理講我們想請教那個中央續產會他到底應不應該遵守採購法他沒有他用自己的資金都不用他只要牽扯到跟政府補助的才有所謂的適不適用政府採購法的問題"},{"start":283.902,"end":308.531,"text":"但他的資金來源呢?不也是我們這邊會有相關的一個補助嗎?對 所以說在110年他是一個例行的政府採購嘛 例行的那個產價調節所以他有計畫上來 我們有合計畫下去 那有合計畫下去的話合計畫下去也算是政府補助不是嗎?對 所以說他不適合的時候就要追回就要追回 好 那我們來看一下去年的公文"},{"start":310.694,"end":323.825,"text":"工程會已經明白確認了冷凍蛋液跟冷凍蛋黃是冷凍處理非屬生鮮農漁產品適用採購法那去年有什麼樣的一個 去年有什麼樣的狀況去年狀況講說"},{"start":325.839,"end":326.039,"text":"這是112年的嗎?"},{"start":342.333,"end":366.258,"text":"這是112年?2023年啊?112年的部分是所有的那個作業都是續廠會先用他自有資金處理那我們後面的計畫合定補助的設置在後面所以他不符合政府採購法的我們就給他50%以下所以沒有所謂的追求問題是!所以部長我們的冷凍蛋黃跟冷凍蛋液有給他50%以下嗎?就是給他50%以下 沒有啊!"},{"start":368.078,"end":391.283,"text":"你之前去年巴西進口的冷凍大法冷凍法也是一樣直接讓他做採購啊沒有你並沒有讓他去用採購法裡面不管是招標或是相關啊他如果沒有採購法的話我們的補助就是低於50%就這樣子沒有這個是去年本席現在拿出來的資料就是去年9月的時候我們有委員在質詢去年10月的時候我們有委員在質詢"},{"start":393.304,"end":400.718,"text":"這個省記長省記長講是說這一些狀況要去釐清結果省記長居然講是說3個月內調查完畢那目前調查狀況勒?"},{"start":402.506,"end":429.25,"text":"沈記長那時候講是說確實純有爭議代理清要先確認雞蛋是不是生鮮魚農產品那還有冷凍蛋液跟冷凍蛋黃是不是生鮮魚農產品那我們委員去年的時候我們的委員林維周委員就拿出這個公文就說我們在10月3號的時候就問工程會到底冷凍蛋黃跟蛋液是不是農漁產品那工程會說不是嘛那現在三個月過去了我們到底有沒有去有"},{"start":430.35,"end":432.851,"text":"有交回50%嗎?有低於50%嗎?所以現在本席就要確認因為今天媒體報導已經講是說你的"},{"start":457.457,"end":482.729,"text":"冷藏倉儲跟脫軌費用要收回50%嗎?那我們現在要問過去補助的冷凍蛋黃冷凍蛋液有沒有要去了解?是不是如果說有補助100%也要收回50%?我現在只問的是是不是一定適用?一定一筆適用就是112年部分如果說他該適用政府採購他沒適用的話就會追回但如果說"},{"start":483.709,"end":504.806,"text":"他先買了我們在核定補助在後的時候我就一定不會超過50%是 所以這個就是重點嘛那什麼時候可以把資料釐清因為之前就是有爆發中央市長會就是去購買巴西的或是相關的冷凍蛋液跟冷凍蛋黃但他沒有用採購法他也直接用合約方式就直接採購了"},{"start":506.127,"end":531.763,"text":"所以才會讓我們去年有這樣的疑慮並且要求省紀部來去做瞭解省紀部說3個月要給資料到目前也是不了了之那本席就直接請教因為你們已經講了冷凍倉儲只要是符合採購法的追回50%那一樣冷凍蛋黃冷凍蛋液符合採購法這您剛剛已經承認了工程會也公文了那現在什麼時候要去釐清到底過去有哪一些是百分百補助要追回50%"},{"start":533.486,"end":554.838,"text":"我想是不是委員可以給我一個禮拜的時間我這樣讓續長會去把這個資料調出來一個禮拜的時間就把它調出來然後調出來如果非常清楚的我會把這個這個我們所以包含冷凍蛋黃冷凍蛋液最主要是冷凍蛋黃該該用採購法的部分我把它挑出來是一個禮拜時間請給本席及經濟委員會資料釐清謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154375","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154375","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c5e50a3e4383e11d421a3f23b3ad13ea2e70b5822ad681b893edf8563874a00ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:50:44 - 11:56:52","影片長度":"00:06:08","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:50:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:56:52+08:00","duration":368,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":967,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時50分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長好。我想請問一下，在接任部長之前，你在農委會擔任多久的職務？"],["陳部長駿季：我108年3月進到農委會。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你是長期在農委會任職，我認識你的時候，你應該是副主委。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我之前在臺北市政府任職，也很謝謝農委會對於臺北市相關農產運銷或者是北農的支持，所以當時的副主委、現在的部長應該非常清楚臺北市在進行第一果菜市場及魚市場的改建中，當時我銜命，因為臺北市議會要求我們必須要跟中央爭取補助，果菜市場及魚市場的改建總共花費大概140億，當時議會有下一個決議說，因為北農有一個大股東叫做農委會，你們的股份應該是占22.76%，關於臺北漁業公司的部分，全國漁會的股份也有39%，所以要求我們要跟中央爭取。我給部長看一張照片，我們接受議會的要求之後，我就帶著董事長跟總經理來拜訪陳吉仲主委，這件事情你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：當時會面的時候我不知道，我事後才知道。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們當時爭取興建經費，但主委說因為臺北市是一級財政城市，所以不予補助，但是陳主委當時又說，接下去興建好了以後，冷鏈、相關拍賣及軟體設備的部分，農委會可以考慮來協助。"],["陳部長駿季：就是內部的設施。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我想問一下，關於陳主委講的話，現在的陳部長會不會接受？"],["陳部長駿季：我的態度也一樣，因為批發市場是一個非常重要的市場，所以內部包括冷鏈的部分，特別是拍賣能夠升級的部分，我想我們都會支持。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在它的硬體還在蓋，但接下來軟體的部分，我希望陳前主委跟現在的陳部長能夠支持，因為它不只是單純的臺北市工程，其實它是重要的全國拍賣場所，而且是攸關農民跟漁民的生計。"],["陳部長駿季：我同意它的定位是這樣子。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個部分麻煩寫在公報裡，我希望將來也是農委會的承諾，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是第一點，接著我們再看第二張照片。我在臺北市的時候，針對農產運銷相關的過程，我們其實很辛苦……在這個過程裡面，我看到您在2020年其實就已經開始推動所謂的分級包裝，分級包裝已經推了這麼多年，你覺得成效好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得要看品項，有些品項透過分級包裝，可以把它的平均價格拉上……"],["黃委員珊珊：有改善一些，但是改善得好不好？不夠好？"],["陳部長駿季：還要再努力，特別是有一些品項……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我再講一次，我常常拿這個當例子，我們每天有1,700噸的蔬果，尤其是蔬菜的交易，但是我們每天的垃圾將近有37噸，也就是高麗菜從產地運上來到臺北，標售出去之後，它又要在我們旁邊的許多住宅區裡面把葉子拔下來，然後再把這些垃圾送回去，變成廢棄物，所以分級包裝一直以來雖然有在推，但是效果好像不是很好。"],["陳部長駿季：特別是葉菜類的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：葉菜類很差。這張照片就是你在推動所謂的棧板化、規格化、標準化、國際化，假設分級包裝做得好，其實在淡季的時候可以外銷，可是我們現在因為沒有做，所以常常高麗菜一顆10塊錢。在您接任部長之後，這些事情會不會繼續推？推的效益是不是要寫一些KPI？不然每次都說要看品項、要看農民。今天討論的又是農民，現在幾乎沒有工人可以做事，所以你怎麼樣推動分級包裝要記得告訴我。"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，從我的思維裡面，我覺得很多進到批發市場的，特別是有些葉菜類要先處理的，在產地端就要處理好，這個部分我會去對接……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，不應該運到臺北來再運回去。"],["陳部長駿季：我會對接到它的五大合作社場，從合作社場那邊先處理，那有一些共同運銷的部分，我們希望一定要這樣做啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：但因為沒有強迫，而且也沒有相關的機制，現在農業部已經升格了，我希望您上任以後，就這件事情我們不能再像原始社會一樣，比較日本、比較相關的先進國家，其實分級包裝是很正常的事情，可是在我們這邊變成是很奇怪的事。","第二個，因為沒有棧板化、沒有標準化，所以就會看到現在北農還是一大堆用人力在搬運，沒有用起重機在搬運，這是一個很原始的地方。我希望改建以後，針對剛剛您所講的，與軟體相關的部分，不管是將來的拍賣或者是將來這些包裝，都應該是以臺北為例，然後把它提升上來好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們會朝這個方向來努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是2020年你自己在做的事，我希望現在接下去成為你未來的重要政策，我覺得這也會對農民有一些幫助，讓他們的價錢好，讓他們的生計更好，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來我們請洪孟楷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.9209687500000001,"end":2.3934687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.3934687500000003,"end":2.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.95034375,"end":3.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.970343750000001,"end":11.286593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.556593750000001,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.85909375,"end":20.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.669093750000002,"end":26.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.992843750000002,"end":31.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.794093750000002,"end":32.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.24096875,"end":38.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.197843750000004,"end":42.555968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.80909375,"end":46.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.14596875,"end":47.517218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.103468750000005,"end":51.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.039718750000006,"end":57.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.625343750000006,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.09346875000001,"end":63.329093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.25721875,"end":65.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.84346875,"end":69.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.14659375000001,"end":70.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.37846875000001,"end":72.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.57221875,"end":74.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.70284375,"end":77.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.02721875,"end":79.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.34346875,"end":80.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.33471875000001,"end":81.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.56659375000001,"end":90.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.91971875,"end":92.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.62409375,"end":96.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.58971875,"end":100.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.63534375,"end":102.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.42846875000001,"end":103.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.47909375,"end":102.83346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.14971875,"end":107.64284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.49534375,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.23784375000001,"end":116.51909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.03409375000001,"end":115.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.46846875000001,"end":116.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.72159375000001,"end":133.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.01534375000001,"end":129.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.30971875,"end":134.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.20409375,"end":144.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.27409375000002,"end":166.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.84721875,"end":149.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.89784375000002,"end":149.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.24596875,"end":166.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.51971875,"end":166.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.94159375,"end":169.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.72596875000002,"end":173.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.99971875,"end":173.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.14721875,"end":176.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.45471875,"end":182.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.34409375,"end":186.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.26346875000002,"end":189.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.54971875,"end":194.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.47721875000002,"end":202.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.74221875,"end":201.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.95721875,"end":202.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.14284375000003,"end":204.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.73721875,"end":206.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.96909375,"end":209.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.65659375,"end":214.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.96346875,"end":219.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.23721875,"end":232.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.09159375000002,"end":236.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.79971875,"end":238.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.74034375000002,"end":244.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.61721875,"end":246.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.25409375,"end":247.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.70534375000003,"end":248.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.12284375000002,"end":259.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.51784375,"end":263.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.28096875,"end":263.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.14159375,"end":278.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.09721875,"end":280.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.48096875000005,"end":281.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.67471875,"end":293.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.85034375000004,"end":293.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.18346875000003,"end":293.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.67284375,"end":301.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.36784375,"end":303.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.56159375000004,"end":306.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.07596875,"end":309.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.21471875000003,"end":315.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.54284375000003,"end":330.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.43909375000004,"end":333.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.13909375000003,"end":336.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.33284375,"end":337.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.66596875000005,"end":341.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.85096875000005,"end":347.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.99346875000003,"end":350.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.63846875,"end":353.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.02221875000004,"end":357.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.88221875000005,"end":366.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.77971875000003,"end":366.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.65721875,"end":367.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.90596875,"end":368.68221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.269,"end":26.548,"text":"黃珊珊委員請做巡檔等一下等一下謝謝主席請部長我們再請陳部長委員早是部長好我想請問一下您在接任部長之前在農委會擔任多久的職務"},{"start":28.032,"end":47.388,"text":"我108年3月進到農委會所以你是長期的農委會擔任我認識你的時候你應該是副主委是所以應該我們在臺北市政府也很謝謝農委會對於臺北市相關農產運銷或者是北農的這些支持所以"},{"start":49.441,"end":64.902,"text":"當時的副主委現在的部長應該非常清楚臺北市在新建所謂的第一漁國國菜市場跟漁市場的改建中當時我賢命因為臺北市議會要求我們必須要來跟中央爭取補助這個國菜市場"},{"start":65.965,"end":88.71,"text":"還有漁市場的改建總共花費大概140億當時議會有下一個決議說因為北農的大股東有一個叫做農委會你們的股東應該是22.76台北漁業公司的部分全國漁會的股份也有39%所以要求我們要跟中央來爭取"},{"start":90.97,"end":102.856,"text":"部長開一個照片這是我們接受議會要求之後其實我們我就帶著董事長跟總經理來拜訪陳其中主委這件事你知道嗎知道您知道嗎"},{"start":104.829,"end":132.588,"text":"當時會面的時候不知道我事後有知道所以當時爭取新建經費然後主委說因為這個部分臺北市是一級財政城市所以不予補助但是陳主委當時就說接下去新建好了以後冷鏈還有相關的拍賣軟體設備的部分農委會可以考慮來協助就是內部的部分所以我想問一下陳主委講的話現在的陳部長會不會"},{"start":134.269,"end":161.534,"text":"我想我的態度也一樣就是說當因為批發市場是一個非常重要的一個市場所以內部的包括的冷鏈的部分特別是拍賣能夠升級的部分我想我們都會支持所以現在如果按照接下去的他的硬體還在蓋但軟體的部分我希望農業部在前陳主委跟現在的陳部長我們希望他不是只是單純臺北市的工程而是他是一個重要的全國的"},{"start":162.025,"end":163.285,"text":"在2020年其實已經開始推動所謂的分級包裝"},{"start":190.555,"end":191.515,"text":"我們每天有一千七百噸的"},{"start":215.984,"end":217.865,"text":"所以分期包裝一直以來有在推但是效果好像不是很好"},{"start":244.633,"end":244.653,"text":"部長"},{"start":264.35,"end":290.342,"text":"這些事情您接了部長之後會不會繼續推推的效益是不是要寫一些KPI啊不然每次都說啊要看品項要看農民那現在今天討論的又是農民幾乎沒有工人可以做事所以你怎麼樣推動分期報告我想跟委員說明喔從我的思維裡面我覺得很多進到批發市場的這特別是有些業差類的要先處理的就在產地端就要處理好"},{"start":293.785,"end":302.976,"text":"我會對接到他的五大的那個合作社場從合作社場那邊先處理那有一些共同運銷的部分我們希望一定要這樣做啦"},{"start":303.632,"end":330.582,"text":"但是部長因為沒有強迫然後第二個也沒有相關的機制我希望您上任農業部已經升格了我覺得這件事情我們不能再像原始社會一樣比如像比較日本比較相關的先進國家其實分歧包裝是很正常的事情可是在我們這邊變成是很奇怪的事第二個沒有站板化沒有標準化就會看到一大堆現在北農還是一大堆用人力在搬運"},{"start":331.502,"end":350.682,"text":"沒有用起重機在搬運這是一個很原始的地方我希望改建以後這個部分農委會就剛剛您講的軟體的部分裡面相關不管是將來的拍賣或者是將來這些包裝都應該是在農委會以台北為例然後把它提升上來好嗎"},{"start":352.107,"end":365.459,"text":"我希望2020年你自己在做的事我希望現在接下去成為你的重要未來政策我覺得這也是對農民的一些幫助讓他們的價錢好讓他們的生意更好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154373","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154373","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c7820a4bf9393095321a3f23b3ad13ea2e70b5822ad681b892100f0c7800c801b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"11:45:29 - 11:50:19","影片長度":"00:04:50","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:45:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:50:19+08:00","duration":290,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":953,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（11時45分）有請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["黃委員仁：謝謝主席。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["黃委員仁：部長，我就以你業務報告裡提到的原住民農產業發展現況就教，針對臺東縣長濱鄉稻穗結實纍纍待收割，卻遭到獼猴大肆破壞一事，長濱鄉第一期稻作目前等待收割中，但有些田區每天遭受獼猴入侵，很多稻米還未成熟就已經被大肆破壞，包含我們的加走灣部落也有很多山豬入侵，請問你們現在對這個問題要如何防範？甚至其他鄉鎮的稻穗，也曾經，不是曾經，是現在也都一直在破壞中，你們要如何防治？"],["陳部長駿季：對不起，跟委員說明，其實獼猴的危害不只是現在你講的水稻，還有很多果樹類的部分，常常會受到獼猴的危害，現在我們林業保育署有提供電牧器，就是圍網部分，去做一些驅猴的動作或者環保的部分，但這些措施對水稻田來講幾乎沒辦法做到，因為水稻田的面積比較大，所以這個部分如果以專案方式，我們可以來協助，就是他們可以僱工來驅趕獼猴，這部分我們一定來協助。"],["黃委員仁：希望你們用專案方式處理，好不好？另外，農業部對於整體野生動物不斷增加，已影響農作物部分，有什麼比較有效的解決方法？第二個，有關於架設電網，如簡易電網，請問農業部有什麼補助方式？另外，部落社區的發展，以農產業發展為主，有關回鄉族人與在地成員形成新興組織的重要議題，第一，農業部目前有沒有大規模的原鄉農業推廣或者以部落為主體的產業發展規劃？第二，原鄉離消費市場甚遠，除了運銷成本高外，也受到銷售管道的限制，近年來銷售近況不盡理想，導致族人種植意願降低，請問農產品銷售管道狹隘，滯銷風險大，農業部有何解決方法？第三，農業部有沒有針對原鄉特定作物補貼或者休耕補助方案？以上問題，請一週內給我回復。","另外，本席認為農業技藝、土地記憶與原鄉發展是直接連結在一起的，這樣才能夠實現以農為本的抵抗政治，也才能找回土地對原住民族回鄉者的真實意義，相關報告能不能提供給我？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，你剛剛所列的東西，我們都會提供報告給你，現在我只簡單說明，農業部非常重視原民農業的部分，我們針對原民農業有一個「找回原力、原力再現」的計畫，這個計畫除了讓原住民找回他們原始傳統的技藝、結合我們現在改良的技術以外，也配套的搭配他後端的技術。第二個部分，針對原民部落本身的這些相關補助，我們都有加成，比平地還加成……"],["黃委員仁：好，因為時間因素，請就以下四點給本席一份報告：第一，缺乏產業特色與定位。第二，資源整合不易。第三，整體包裝與行銷不足。第四，經營管理理念與技術尚待加強，這個報告一週內給我好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們會提供。"],["黃委員仁：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，現在已經11點50分了，我們中午不休息，到今天會議結束。原本預定下午1點鐘要進行公糧收購價格的黨團協商，提前到本日議程結束後立即進行。","現在繼續詢答，請黃珊珊委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.13221875,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.03909375,"end":2.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.130343750000002,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.46346875,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.661593750000002,"end":15.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.54659375,"end":21.563468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.563468750000002,"end":21.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.74909375,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.96846875,"end":22.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.39034375,"end":22.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.453468750000003,"end":39.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.518468750000004,"end":51.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.56721875,"end":52.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.59221875,"end":62.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.55284375,"end":63.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.88596875,"end":76.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.72784375,"end":82.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.07721875,"end":82.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.74346875,"end":98.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.31096875,"end":108.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.99284375,"end":121.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.19784375,"end":133.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.05409375,"end":122.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.08784375,"end":122.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.40846875000001,"end":122.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.56284375,"end":134.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.11534375000002,"end":143.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.90721875,"end":152.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.00284375,"end":160.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.36034375,"end":160.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.00971875000002,"end":169.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.38846875000002,"end":172.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.35846875000001,"end":172.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.80971875,"end":234.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.71159375000002,"end":240.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.46596875,"end":262.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.67346875000004,"end":266.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.04846875000004,"end":266.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.38596875,"end":266.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.48721875,"end":290.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.60159375,"end":291.37784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.171,"end":1.373,"text":"接下來我們請黃仁委員謝謝有請部長我們再請陳部長謝謝主席"},{"start":21.581,"end":28.29,"text":"來委員長好我就以你的業務報告裏面的原住民農產業發展與現況針對臺東縣長濱鄉倒稅劫死雷連代收割已經遭到迷惑的大勢的破壞"},{"start":40.265,"end":62.728,"text":"那殘米香這個第一期的稻穗做目前等待收割中但有些田區每天遭受到這個米吼的入侵而且很多的這個稻米還沒未成熟就已經大肆的破壞那這個問題包含我們在那個什麼在"},{"start":63.959,"end":81.932,"text":"家走廊部落,家走廊部落裡面有很多山豬入侵包含猕猴入侵你們如何現在對這個來防範甚至在其他的鄉鎮裡面的盜稅也曾經不是曾經是現在都一直在破壞當中你們如何防治"},{"start":84.813,"end":107.424,"text":"對不起 我跟委員說明就是說彌猴其實它的危害不只是現在等於你講的水稻其實還有很多果樹類的部分常常會受到這個彌猴的危害那現在我們林業保育署裡面它有提供這樣的一個電器那個電幕器的部分 微網的部分去做一些一些就是去喉的動作或者是防保但是這些措施對於水稻來講它"},{"start":109.105,"end":109.285,"text":"第二個 這個﹖"},{"start":135.168,"end":158.97,"text":"有關於簽電網如簡易電網請問一下農業部有什麼什麼什麼樣的方式的補助那另外另外你們要做書面報告待會提出的事項那部落設計發展以農業農農產業的這個發展回鄉族人以在地成員形成新興組織的重要議題第一個"},{"start":163.33,"end":167.637,"text":"農業部目前有沒有大規模的原鄉農業推廣．或者部落主體的產業發展規劃．第二．"},{"start":173.871,"end":197.238,"text":"原鄉離消費市場甚遠除了運銷成本高外受到銷售管道的限制近年來銷售進況不盡理想導致族人種種的意願降低請問農產品銷售管道狹隘次貸風險大農業部有如何解決的方法第三"},{"start":199.019,"end":210.786,"text":"農業部有沒有對原鄉特定作物補貼．或者修耕補助方案．請一周內給我一個回答另外本席認為在農業記憶土地記憶與原鄉的發展是直接連結在一起的"},{"start":218.61,"end":219.53,"text":"我只簡單的說明齁"},{"start":240.518,"end":240.718,"text":"好,這樣子"},{"start":267.678,"end":289.483,"text":"因為時間因素：請本席給4點來第一個接法產業特色與定位第二資源整合不易第三整體包裝與行銷不足第四經營管理理念與技術帶上加的加強把這個報告一周內給我好不好好我們會提供好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154372","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154372","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726cecf02945965b8d7821a3f23b3ad13ea2e70b5822ad681b896b5ac9660c38a9835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:34:06 - 11:45:15","影片長度":"00:11:09","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:34:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:45:15+08:00","duration":669,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":892,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時34分）謝謝主席。部長，你喝水喝完再上來，沒關係，慢慢來。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早。最近雞蛋盛產，我們的蛋農跟蛋商都很慘，可是我沒想到的是，最近中央畜產會還倒蛋，還倒貨進我們的市場。不是應該減少這個蛋的量嗎？怎麼中央畜產會還火上加油呢？這裡面至少有三大的衝擊。第一，有沒有衝擊、影響到我們蛋農的生計？第二，破壞了你農業部最重要的任務──產銷的平衡；第三個是可能會出現的，現在釋出的是去年過期的蛋，或者是即將過期的蛋。等一下這部分我們要好好談，我有數據給你看。有沒有過期的蛋，或即將過期的蛋，吃到我們的肚子？我畫了個問號，等一下我們來談。","這三部分，我先問你。部長，這次產銷失衡就是蛋太多嘛，對不對？你的任務跟中央畜產會的任務，應該是助雞蛋減少啊！結果為什麼反而中央畜產會從今年5月17日開始，到現在已經五梯次公開標售蛋。蛋就已經太多了，你還倒蛋下去，火上加油！我算起來，全液蛋加上蛋黃液蛋、茶葉蛋、滷蛋，如果是用「顆」來算量，大概已經倒進市場兩千兩百多萬顆，這個會不會太離譜了？你要解決問題的人結果去製造問題，這在臺灣話中叫什麼？是不是「生雞卵的無，放雞屎的有」？","如果從行政學上去看，這是什麼？行政管理上是什麼？失職、失能又失德。有些農民都已經氣到講那句話了，我實在不好意思說，很夭壽耶！你沒有解決問題，中央畜產會這時候還倒貨進去？現在你想像那兩個畫面，蛋價就連去買飼料的錢都不夠了，弄到後來，前幾天有那麼多媒體都報導那個畫面，大家想一下，有些為了減少蛋再進到市場，拿去養豬，就是要減少它的量啊！你想到這邊，欸！這是多心疼的事情！結果你相對這邊的畫面是什麼？中央畜產會從5月17號開始，你在市場裡面倒了兩千兩百多萬顆的蛋進去，這時人民不會憤怒嗎？欺負我們善良的農民是不是？","部長，這個中央畜產會到底在幹嘛？它有替我們人民解決問題嗎？它反而製造了問題，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我可不可以說明一下？"],["張委員啓楷：請說。"],["陳部長駿季：我想整個雞蛋的產銷，第一個我們是回歸到市場機制，農業部的任務就是能夠穩定生產端跟消費端的部分，然後中央畜產會本身，依畜牧法它是負有產銷調節的部分，我跟要跟委員說明，中央畜產會……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我先提醒你一下，你的任務是產銷是要平衡的，中央畜產會也是對不對？現在是產量過剩，要減少喔，中央畜產會現在不只沒有減少，他還倒貨進來喔！你贊成它這樣做是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：不是我贊成這樣做，這是產銷調節的一環，因為這些進口、加工………"],["張委員啓楷：調節應該是減少它的量，讓價格回升啊！你倒貨不是價格會越來越低？"],["陳部長駿季：這個就是……"],["張委員啓楷：你這是火上加油，怎麼會是解決問題？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，這個就類似112年的時候，我們的進口雞蛋為什麼會有那麼多報廢？因為我們是看到市場的蛋，本身的價格穩定，我們不會往市場裡面去倒。那這些是生鮮雞蛋，這個部分是，它已經是一個加工蛋，但加工蛋的標的跟生鮮雞蛋的標的市場是不一樣的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長……"],["陳部長駿季：第二個……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，今天液蛋和生鮮的蛋，早上我如果有吃液蛋，我蒸了一個蛋，我還需要去吃一個雞蛋嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不是、不是……"],["張委員啓楷：它本身的那個量……"],["陳部長駿季：那個液蛋是……"],["張委員啓楷：我告訴你，你現在沒有錯，你現在為了雞蛋，生鮮的可能要壞掉了，你現在就必須把它變成加工的，對不對？我現在所有的資料都是從中央畜產會進口蛋加工品專區拉下來的東西。去年的快過期了，或者我甚至擔心有沒有過期問題。好，就算沒有過期，也即將過期，對不對？為了要保存多一點點，所以要把它打成液蛋嘛！那你應該是去年賣啊！或者是在雞蛋少的時候賣啊！你怎麼會找現在雞蛋最多、最便宜的時候，把蛋又丟進去呢？怎麼會有這種離譜的……"],["陳部長駿季：我想，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛講了，你說兩個有不一樣嗎？它都是蛋啊！我如果吃了液蛋，你今天釋出來的……不是，你聽我說。你今天釋出來的不是只有液蛋喔，你還釋出了茶葉蛋跟滷蛋，我今天如果吃了一顆茶葉蛋、吃了一顆滷蛋，我為什麼還要吃一顆生鮮的蛋？它本身就是可以選擇的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解，我跟委員報告，就是我們畜產會在做這樣的操作的時候有他們的一個邏輯；第二個就是說，它以每天2,400萬顆的這個量，它所釋出的那個比重，其實他們都有做一些相關的評估啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你這麼專業的人，你應該是有專業的，你是有知識沒有常識嗎？明明市場就過多了，價格已經跌成這樣，你量就是加進去，你還在幫他辯護！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，不是，我是說整個雞蛋本身的……"],["張委員啓楷：你是有專業，你是有知識，可是我剛剛講的是一個常識問題啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個部分就是……"],["張委員啓楷：你的農業部功能是什麼？產跟銷要平衡，對不對？產就已經生產過剩，你還把東西加進去！過剩了，怎麼叫做平衡？太多的東西要變少，對不對？過剩了，要怎麼平衡……"],["陳部長駿季：產銷的平衡……"],["張委員啓楷：要變少，結果你現在又加量進去！"],["陳部長駿季：有一部分是蛋農自主調節，這也是一個，他為什麼要去淘汰老母雞……"],["張委員啓楷：你的調節是減少欸！好，OK、OK，我問你一個更嚴重的問題，你目前已經丟了兩千兩百多萬顆進去，我看了你去年給我的資料，加工蛋加起來一共還有七千萬顆，去年因為你買蛋買太多了，除了銷毀之外，做成加工的有七千萬顆，現在已經倒了兩千兩百多萬顆進去，本席做一個明確的要求，剩下的四千多萬顆最近不能再倒了，可不可以？"],["陳部長駿季：我想他們會基於專業的判斷，調整釋出的時間點。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，農民已經氣到不止憤怒而已，失職、失能，已經是夭壽了，說實在的，是失德了，人民現在能夠多憤怒！能夠罵多重的話！再想一想，在失衡的時候，你倒這麼多蛋已經不對了，後續還有四千多萬顆……"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定會觀察蛋本身的產銷平衡狀態再決定它的……"],["張委員啓楷：目前就是太多了啦，你還要丟蛋進去！第二個，部長，我知道你有你的專業，但是我要一再強調一件事，人在公門好修行，有腦袋之外，拜託，有那個心啦！好不好？剛剛鍾佳濱立委，我覺得他的質詢很好啊，他說蛋就是太多了，可以拜託國軍多吃一點營養的蛋，我覺得不管是哪一個黨，有心幫人民解決問題就是好立委，一樣啊，不是只有腦袋，要有心。部長，到目前大家對你的評價不錯，如果你有心，你就是一個好官員，你現在都沒有感受到那種痛嗎？你如果是一個養雞戶、是一個蛋農、是一個蛋商，心裡都在淌血了，因為你看到有些……"],["陳部長駿季：我當然瞭解、我當然瞭解，我們會努力來做這方面的事。"],["張委員啓楷：做個好官，好不好？我提兩點，動動腦啦！我們用心跟用腦幫蛋農和人民解決問題。第一個，飼料太貴，對不對？剛才賴惠員委員也這樣說，針對國外進來的部分，我知道你已經做了一部分，你降了關稅嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：但是目前還是太貴，對不對？考慮一下，農產品太多的時候，你都去補助了，考慮一下，怎麼去補助蛋農，特別在飼料那一塊，好不好？你已經降低關稅了，想一下，能不能再有一點補助？這是第一個。第二個更重要，去年進口蛋進口太多，對不對？你做了什麼動作？加工打成液蛋，對不對？你解決了嘛，對不對？去年為了進口蛋你這樣解決，現在國內本土蛋農出問題，你不能用同樣的方法嗎？除了叫國軍買以外，農業部不能叫中央畜產會去買一些回來，一樣做成蛋液，或是做成滷蛋、茶葉蛋，以後有需要再賣，可以嗎？去年可以這樣幫忙，為什麼今年沒辦法照顧我們的蛋農？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我們現在正在評估，這就是我講的，我們必須有一些國產蛋去做庫存緩衝的空間，去做一個調配，但這個調配需要比較細緻的操作。"],["張委員啓楷：你剛才跟主席的對話其實我有聽到，你說你要控制到一天就是兩千四百萬顆，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：目前為什麼會過剩？多三十……"],["陳部長駿季：三十二萬顆左右。"],["張委員啓楷：多三十二萬顆的蛋，所以我剛才生氣你又丟了兩千兩百萬顆進來。好，至少這個多出來的蛋你可以買，就像去年一樣，買完以後做成液蛋，就有一年期限，對不對？你都可以幫外國，為什麼不能幫我們本國？好好想一下這件事，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解，我們已經有在做這樣的規劃。"],["張委員啓楷：有規劃了，那趕快做，好不好？我覺得量都可以講，像去年多買七千萬顆放在那裡，至少今年你也可以買我們本國的蛋，買七千萬顆進來，那量就減少了，就真的達到產銷平衡了，對不對？七千萬顆沒有過期的蛋，你把它做成液蛋、茶葉蛋，未來一年，隨時缺蛋就可以放進去，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["張委員啓楷：因為冬天需要的量比較大……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我講一下，消極面部分，剩下的四千五百萬顆不要再釋出了，不要再倒貨了，好不好？這是消極面；第二個，積極面部分，剛才講的考慮一下，補助飼料，讓我們的蛋農、蛋商負擔不要那麼大，好不好？另外，好好想一想，我想可能買個七千萬顆應該可以，合理啦！好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：多動動腦啦！我們多一點……"],["陳部長駿季：我們會來規劃。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，多用心，專業之外多用心，我們期待的是一個好的官員，好不好？多謝，繼續努力。"],["主席：好，謝謝，我們也請部長將你所謂很細緻的方案儘速提出來，送交我們經濟委員會，以協助蛋農，謝謝。","接下來我們請黃仁委員。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.26659375,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":10.442843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.14284375,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.89284375,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.90971875,"end":20.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.26346875,"end":25.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.00159375,"end":26.676593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.570968750000002,"end":30.456593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.266593750000002,"end":33.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.27034375,"end":36.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.32909375,"end":36.970343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.67909375,"end":38.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.48471875,"end":42.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.84284375,"end":44.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.12096875,"end":47.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.344093750000006,"end":51.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.41096875,"end":53.085968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.541593750000004,"end":55.735343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.072843750000004,"end":59.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.970968750000004,"end":60.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.455968750000004,"end":62.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.59909375,"end":67.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.46346875,"end":67.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.76284375,"end":73.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.25159375,"end":74.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.93471875,"end":76.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.82471875,"end":79.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.52909375,"end":80.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.57534375,"end":81.70596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.66784375,"end":85.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.46909375,"end":86.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.42659375000001,"end":88.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.28284375000001,"end":90.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.93659375,"end":92.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.23159375,"end":95.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.13409375,"end":98.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.69471875,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.81659375000001,"end":103.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.87971875000001,"end":104.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.90909375000001,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.46596875,"end":106.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.86659375,"end":107.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.72721875,"end":108.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.43596875,"end":110.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.67596875000001,"end":112.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.49846875,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.79784375000001,"end":116.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.42596875000001,"end":119.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.07971875000001,"end":122.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.11721875,"end":124.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.33221875000001,"end":126.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.03221875000001,"end":128.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.22596875000002,"end":130.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.93034375000002,"end":132.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.59659375,"end":135.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.63409375,"end":137.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.96721875,"end":140.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.89909375000002,"end":143.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.70034375,"end":145.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.72534375,"end":148.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.17221875,"end":150.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.01159375,"end":153.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.52159375000002,"end":157.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.14971875,"end":159.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.82034375,"end":160.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.96784375000001,"end":162.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.36846875,"end":163.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.79846875,"end":166.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.54909375,"end":169.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.21971875,"end":172.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.56096875,"end":173.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.55221875,"end":176.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.24784375000002,"end":178.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.27721875,"end":180.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.96034375000002,"end":183.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.85034375,"end":185.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.79096875000002,"end":186.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.75284375,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.78659375,"end":187.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.90034375000002,"end":188.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.69346875000002,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.71784375000001,"end":204.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.41659375,"end":207.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.96471875,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.97284375,"end":211.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.87971875000002,"end":215.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.30096875,"end":218.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.93346875,"end":221.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.42659375000002,"end":222.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.96659375000002,"end":229.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.68721875000003,"end":237.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.04909375000003,"end":236.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.95596875,"end":259.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.18471875,"end":258.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.75846875,"end":259.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.36596875000004,"end":259.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.55159375,"end":259.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.74971875,"end":266.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.68534375,"end":274.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.87096875000003,"end":268.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.78221875,"end":270.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.67159375,"end":277.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.59096875,"end":278.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.27846875,"end":280.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.69596875,"end":282.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.56909375000004,"end":283.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.59409375,"end":290.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.71971875,"end":293.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.85846875000004,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.18284375,"end":298.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.39346875,"end":304.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.24971875,"end":303.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.54034375000003,"end":305.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.75534375,"end":309.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.26096875,"end":313.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.85159375,"end":311.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.82159375000003,"end":315.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.34034375000005,"end":315.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.79159375,"end":317.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.93909375000004,"end":319.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.23409375,"end":322.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.57971875000004,"end":323.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.59659375,"end":322.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.25471875,"end":323.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.27159375,"end":323.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.96346875,"end":323.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.98034375000003,"end":325.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.99721875,"end":341.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.39534375,"end":342.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.42471875,"end":343.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.21346875,"end":345.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.33971875000003,"end":347.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.00596875,"end":354.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.42284375,"end":358.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.02159375,"end":360.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.32909375,"end":360.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.51471875000004,"end":360.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.81846875,"end":366.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.47659375,"end":361.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.64034375,"end":368.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.96909375,"end":370.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.99409375000005,"end":373.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.72346875000005,"end":375.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.63471875000005,"end":380.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.66846875000005,"end":376.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.38534375,"end":387.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.86096875000004,"end":389.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.84346875,"end":390.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.07534375,"end":392.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.01596875,"end":394.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.58534375000005,"end":396.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.42034375000003,"end":397.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.39909375,"end":400.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.58846875,"end":402.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.41096875000005,"end":405.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.40221875000003,"end":408.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.06409375000004,"end":412.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.33346875,"end":415.18971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.18971875000005,"end":415.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.86471875,"end":415.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.96596875,"end":416.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.64096875,"end":416.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.77596875,"end":416.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.79284375000003,"end":416.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.96159375,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.97846875000005,"end":417.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.10909375,"end":423.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.77909375,"end":423.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.06596875,"end":424.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.84221875000003,"end":425.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.12471875,"end":428.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.92159375,"end":431.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.59221875000003,"end":433.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.34284375000004,"end":437.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.13534375,"end":439.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.73846875000004,"end":445.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.27346875,"end":446.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.29034375000003,"end":446.37471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.37471875000006,"end":446.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.39159375,"end":446.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.47596875000005,"end":447.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.49284375,"end":450.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.78346875000005,"end":451.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.17971875,"end":453.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.59721875,"end":454.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.04846875000004,"end":456.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.68096875000003,"end":460.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.36409375000005,"end":462.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.09784375000004,"end":463.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.05971875,"end":467.08034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.67096875000004,"end":468.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.61159375000005,"end":472.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.66596875000005,"end":473.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.40409375,"end":476.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.59346875000006,"end":478.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.06159375000004,"end":479.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.20909375,"end":480.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.05284375,"end":486.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.43159375000005,"end":489.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.60846875000004,"end":490.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.43096875000003,"end":493.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.62471875000006,"end":494.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.99159375000005,"end":496.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.64971875000003,"end":499.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.55659375000005,"end":497.80971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.83909375,"end":499.53096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.71659375,"end":501.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.29846875000004,"end":504.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.77909375,"end":506.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.66471875,"end":508.77846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.81221875000006,"end":509.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.01034375000006,"end":512.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.2334687499999,"end":515.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.08534375,"end":516.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.65471875,"end":519.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.44346875,"end":521.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.5147187499999,"end":527.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.9653437500001,"end":531.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.71159375,"end":533.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.3103437500001,"end":535.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.20034375,"end":536.8078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.48284375,"end":539.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.69346875,"end":541.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.83659375,"end":542.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.25409375,"end":545.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.5490937500001,"end":546.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.72596875,"end":551.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.8390937500001,"end":553.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.4084687500001,"end":556.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.75409375,"end":558.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.40346875,"end":561.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.36096875,"end":565.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.64784375,"end":562.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.8034687500001,"end":574.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.4897187500001,"end":576.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.27846875,"end":578.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.3328437499999,"end":581.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.77971875,"end":583.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.3659687500001,"end":588.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.28534375,"end":586.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.39471875,"end":594.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.4072187500001,"end":590.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.7022187499999,"end":591.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.6553437499999,"end":595.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.96721875,"end":601.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.01284375,"end":602.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.1940937500001,"end":607.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.38346875,"end":609.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.8303437500001,"end":609.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.04534375,"end":617.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.8584687499999,"end":618.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.27596875,"end":623.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.81534375,"end":624.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.62096875,"end":625.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.44784375,"end":629.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.8059687500001,"end":639.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.3359687500001,"end":641.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.1753437500001,"end":643.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.32284375,"end":645.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.03971875,"end":646.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.30534375,"end":647.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.6384687500001,"end":649.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.43159375,"end":651.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.5747187500001,"end":656.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.82284375,"end":657.9365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.3247187500001,"end":659.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.4509687500001,"end":660.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.0247187500001,"end":661.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.03721875,"end":664.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.6740937500001,"end":663.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.56846875,"end":666.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.28534375,"end":668.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.78721875,"end":669.4622187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.459,"end":9.18,"text":"請部長最近雞蛋盛產我們的蛋籠跟蛋商都很慘可是我沒想到的是"},{"start":34.318,"end":58.817,"text":"最近中央市場會還倒蛋還倒貨進我們的這個市場不是應該減少這個蛋的量嗎怎麼中央市場會還火上加油呢這裡面出了至少有三大的衝擊第一有沒有衝擊影響到我們蛋農的生計第二破壞了你農業部最重要的任務產銷的平衡第三個可能也會出現的"},{"start":60.154,"end":84.042,"text":"他現在釋出的是去年過期的蛋或者即將過期的蛋等一下這部分我沒有好好談我有數據給你看有沒有過期的蛋或即將過期的蛋吃到我們的肚子我畫了一個問號等一下我們來談來這三個部分我先問你部長這次產銷失衡就是蛋太多嘛 對不對你的任務跟中央細產會的任務應該是煮雞蛋鹹炒結果為什麼"},{"start":89.352,"end":112.499,"text":"反而中央市場會為今年5月17日開始：到現在已經5梯次公開飆收蛋兩天太多了你再倒兩下去火上加油我算起來錢一彈加上蛋黃一彈茶葉蛋五彈你如果算是用顆的這個顆量大概已經倒進市場兩千兩百多萬顆"},{"start":118.856,"end":138.252,"text":"這個會不會太離譜了?你要解決問題的人 接著我去製造問題這台灣會覺得什麼?施工的不好 又放棄財富是不是?如果從行政學上去看是什麼?行政管理上是什麼?失職 失能 又失德有些農民都已經氣到 講一句話我先抱歉講很夭壽的你沒有解決問題 你從市長會 這時候會倒貨進去現在畫面 你想像那兩個畫面單車"},{"start":146.909,"end":175.971,"text":"兩天買起了的錢就沒夠啊弄到後來前幾天有那麼多媒體都報導那個畫面大家想一下有些為了要減少蛋再進到市場欸 拿去起地欸就是要減少它的量啊結果你想像這邊 欸都多心疼的事情結果你想像這邊的畫面是什麼中央市場會 五月十七開始你要倒到市場裡面倒了2200多萬塊的蛋進去這人民不會憤怒嗎求我們善良的農民是不是"},{"start":178.305,"end":184.553,"text":"市長,這個中央市長會到底在幹嘛?因為台灣人民有跟我問題嗎?他反而製造了問題欸"},{"start":185.996,"end":209.412,"text":"我可以說明一下我想整個的一個雞蛋的產銷第一個我們是回歸到市場機制那農業部的任務就是能夠穩定生產端跟銷賣端的部分然後中央序長會本身他附有他的虛母法是附有產銷條約的部分我要跟委員說明中央序長會他的"},{"start":216.476,"end":237.462,"text":"現在是產量過剩喔!要減少喔!中央稀產會現在不只沒有減少喔!他還倒貨進來喔!你贊成他這樣做是不是?不是我贊成這樣做喔!這個是在產價調節的一個環喔!因為這些進口加工...調節!調節是應該減少他的量!讓價格回升啊!倒貨不是價格越來越高?你怎麼會?你這是火上加油!怎麼會是解決問題?"},{"start":238.502,"end":239.042,"text":"我還需要去吃一個雞蛋嗎?"},{"start":267.742,"end":292.638,"text":"不是不是,那個液彈是…對阿,你現在的磁爛,我跟你說,你現在沒有不對,你現在為了機能生鮮的可能要壞掉了你現在就必須要把它變成加工嘛,對不對我現在所有的資料都是從中央續產會的進口彈的這個加工品專區拖下來的東西去年快過期了,或者我甚至擔心有沒有過期問題,就是沒有過期,也即將過期,對不對為了要保存多一點點,所以把它打成液彈嘛"},{"start":293.902,"end":318.873,"text":"那你應該是去年賣阿 或者是雞蛋少的時候賣阿因為你現在找雞蛋太多 太多的時候你又把蛋丟進去勒我沒有這種離譜的 那你剛講的 你說兩個有不一樣嗎他都是蛋阿 我如果吃了液蛋你今天釋出的不是 聽我說喔 你今天釋出的不是只有液蛋喔你還釋出了茶葉蛋跟滷蛋 我今天我要吃一下 茶葉蛋吃一下"},{"start":320.29,"end":321.53,"text":"你這麼專業的人你應該是有專業的你是有知識沒有常識嗎?"},{"start":349.099,"end":373.152,"text":"您明明那個市場就過多了,價格已經跌成這樣,你量這邊加進去,你還在幫他辨護?沒有,不是,我是說整個雞蛋本身的...你是有專業,你是有資格,可是我剛剛講的是不是一個常識問題啊?對,這個部分就是...你為什麼你的農業部的功能是什麼?產跟銷要平衡對不對?那產就已經生產過剩啊,啊你還把東西加進去,過剩什麼叫做平衡?太多的東西要變少對不對?"},{"start":374.798,"end":379.179,"text":"我問一個更嚴重的你目前已經丟了2200多萬個進去的我去看你去年給我的資料我看一下你加起來一共還有"},{"start":401.816,"end":404.078,"text":"農民已經氣到不知道不是給他憤怒而已喔"},{"start":430.16,"end":456.127,"text":"施質施能已經要求說實在施得了 人民現在能夠多憤怒 能夠罵多重的話 再想一想 在施能的時候你為什麼倒這麼多蛋已經不對了 你現在嘔氣了 事情發生了 事情發生了 我們一定會觀察他本身的一個產銷平衡狀態去決定他的調 產銷啊 不行就去收債啊 你要丟蛋進去 好第二個 我知道你五十年了"},{"start":457.708,"end":477.959,"text":"人在公門 我一直在強調這件事 人在公門好休閒 有腦袋之外拜託有一個心啦 好不好剛剛宗嘉濮議員 宗嘉濮立委 我覺得他的質詢很好啊 要說農就消費啊 拜託國賓 這營養的農可以加一塊 我覺得不管是哪一個黨 有心幫人民解決問題就是好立委 一樣啊"},{"start":479.107,"end":482.109,"text":"我提兩個 我提兩個 我們動動腦啦我們用心跟用腦幫彈籠跟人民解決問題第一"},{"start":507.768,"end":519.535,"text":"農產品太多的時候你都去補助了嘛 考慮一下怎麼去補助蛋農 特別是在飼料那一塊有沒有 休息了 你已經降低關稅了 想一下能不能再有一點補助這是一個 第二個更重要 你鼓你進口蛋進口太多對不對 你做了什麼動作"},{"start":536.26,"end":551.422,"text":"加工啊打成液彈啊對不對你改過了嘛對不對啊你今年為了進口的彈這樣改過啊現在過來的本土的本土的彈籠出問題你不能用同樣的方法嗎你叫國軍賣液彈你跟我們農業部你叫中央市政府去賣一些回來啊"},{"start":552.878,"end":560.462,"text":"我跟委員報告我們現在正在評估這就是我講的我們必須有一些國產彈去做一個庫存緩衝的一個空間去做一個調配但是這個調配需要比較細緻的操作"},{"start":579.597,"end":600.834,"text":"其實你剛才主席對話我就聽了。你說你現在要控制到一天就是2400萬顆嘛對不對?目前其實為什麼過剩?32萬顆的蛋出來嘛。所以我就在想你又丟了2200萬顆。好,那至少這個多出來的蛋你可以買啊,像去年一樣啊。買完以後它做成一袋它就有一年喔。"},{"start":602.062,"end":625.798,"text":"對不對?你都可以幫外國,為什麼不能幫我們本國?好好想一下這個事,好不好?我了解,我們已經有在這樣一個規劃。有規劃是不是?對。趕快做好不好?好。我覺得量都可以講啦。你現在目前你看,今年你買七千顆放在那裡嘛。你至少今年你可以買我們本國的蛋啊,買七千顆一百。那量就減少了嘛,就真的達到產銷平衡了嘛,對不對?那七千顆,沒有過期,你把它做成一蛋。"},{"start":626.502,"end":644.411,"text":"做成茶葉蛋 每年你買一百到未來一年你隨時缺蛋你就放出去好不好 因為冬天需要量好 謝謝 所以抱歉 好消極麵我抱歉我講一下消極麵剩下的四千五百丁不要再釋出了好不好 不要再到貨了這是消極麵 第二個積極麵 考慮一下補助適量讓我們的蛋籠"},{"start":651.636,"end":651.656,"text":"﹚張啓楷﹚"}]}},{"id":"154370","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154370","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c0a81cb35003d8f8221a3f23b3ad13ea2e70b5822ad681b89df376f3bcf18f1735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:23:45 - 11:34:00","影片長度":"00:10:15","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:23:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:34:00+08:00","duration":615,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":812,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（11時23分）主席謝謝。我想請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長早安，你會累嗎？一大早問到現在。"],["陳部長駿季：可以啦。"],["張委員嘉郡：可以？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["張委員嘉郡：農業移工的問題，我想大家都非常的關心，尤其我們雲林縣，我每一次跟我們的農民在對話，他們都告訴我真的非常需要農業移工，而且其實合法的管道，對於他們來說非常的困難，完全是緩不濟急，為什麼會有這樣的狀況呢？部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我想分為兩個層次，現在的移工，有一部分是它本身的規模比較大，是大農場，但是它的核配比比較高，所以它沒有辦法請到。另外一部分，它想要請外籍移工，但是它的規模沒到達那邊，所以我們根據這個狀況，已經準備降低它的相關門檻。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，部長，我希望我們可以更彈性一點，更彈性一點讓真正缺工的這些農民可以請到移工，否則你可以看喔！我們臺灣的農業就業人口比10年前下降了七個百分點，七個百分點表示可能是務農賺不到錢，或者是他們明明賺得到錢，但工人不足，導致他們沒辦法順利的獲利，我覺得照顧農民就是農業部的天職嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以這個部分，希望部長可以重視，我們農業的人口一直下降，這也代表著農業部越來越不重要，你知道嗎？所以我也希望我們可以好好照顧農民，讓農民賺得到錢，那這樣子，農民的人口數如果可以節節高升，就代表著農業部做的工作非常成功。目前臨時工的比例占了84.3%，農業移工的員額從6,000人增加到1萬2,000人，請問這1萬2,000人都有額滿嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在沒有，目前8,505人，大概70%，我們估計到年底就會額滿。"],["張委員嘉郡：明明我們農業很缺工，為什麼這個員額沒有額滿，為什麼呢？"],["陳部長駿季：這個就牽扯到相關申請，他們有的在申請程序……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這就是我想要講的，現在農業移工的核配比率還是非常的嚴苛，10人以下的農民或團體，一個本勞只能配一個外勞，如果是10人以上的農民團體，只能占全部的四成以下，農民現在本勞都請不到了，你設這個限制，他如何一比一？"],["陳部長駿季：核配比的部分是勞動部的一個規劃，我們會積極去爭取，包括我剛才說的，我先處理10人以上的35%，我希望能夠朝向一比一的方式來處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有必要鎖定一比一啊！這樣子變成是他本勞都請不到，外勞更請不到，你等於鎖死了他所有的機會啊！我是希望你們跟勞動部可以趕快妥善的一起研議，如果一比一，假設他只有一個農民對一個外勞，他們兩個溝通不良，你有辦法成立類似小團體、外勞團體，他可以輪著去不同的農場，我覺得這也是一個可行的辦法。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這就是我們以農會為核心的那個外展的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是農會，你也設定了很多的比例，讓他沒有辦法好好的去申請。我提醒部長一件事情，日本跟我們一樣，他們現在邁向高齡少子化的社會，他們的農業跟我們一樣也缺工，所以他們現在要鬆綁外籍移工的法規限制，而且假設他們領到日本特定技能勞工第二類的身分，就可以申請無限期延長簽證，可以攜帶家屬同行之外，最終得以申請永久居留權。可以預見的是，未來臺灣招募農業移工，我們不只是面對內部的問題，我們還要面對外部的競爭，我們未來是要跟日本、跟南韓一起爭取、一起競爭這些農業移工，你有什麼具體的措施嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不過我想您剛才講的日本案例，據我瞭解，其實勞動部也針對勞工的相關法規在做檢討，做一個充分檢討，讓它比較適合我們現在的需求。目前我們的方向就是這些核配比，我一定想辦法讓它能夠更符合我們農業的特質，農業的特質可能可以再做一個彈性的調整。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我知道您是農業這方面專業的專家，所以我也很希望你可以大力的為這些農民來爭取，如果你有需要，我相信我們經濟委員會所有的委員都可以做你的後盾，好好地跟勞動部一起來爭取，這一點，我覺得你也要善加利用。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我想我們會來努力。"],["張委員嘉郡：好。另外，這個是從今天早上到現在大家都想知道的，請問部長取得中央畜產會2022年8月採購日本雞蛋的合約公司到底是哪一家公司？"],["陳部長駿季：以畜產會來講，我們是採……"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是亮采？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是採貨到付款……"],["張委員嘉郡：我先問你嘛，我說是不是亮采？"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解是亮采進口雞蛋。"],["張委員嘉郡：我想要知道，亮采是一個醫美生物科技人力仲介，資本額只有100萬的公司，為什麼當初亮采可以拿到合約呢？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，因為這件事情，我稍微問了我們同仁，基本上它的營業項目是符合的；第二個我剛才說了，我們當初在緊急的狀況之下，需要蛋的話，只要你有能力拿到日本蛋，那就沒有什麼問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：我可以再問一下部長，為什麼同年付款的對象卻變成是超思呢？到底是跟誰簽約、給誰輸入許可，應該就是要付錢給誰，為什麼他們變成是你跟亮采簽約，然後把錢付給超思，為什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我想第一個，沒有簽約我必須說明，是用貨到付款買斷的方式；第二個就是亮采跟超思本身是私法人的關係，私法人關係不管有委任的關係也好，或有債權的關係也好，這個部分都不是我們行政權可以調查的，我們已經移送給檢調單位去處理了。"],["張委員嘉郡：請問一下，9月付款給超思是簽約還是買斷？"],["陳部長駿季：在4月以後的，幾乎應該都是買斷的方式……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你也不知道？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，4月以後的都是買斷的。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我就是問你，你確認9月付款給超思是簽約還是買斷？不知道？"],["陳部長駿季：都是買斷的。"],["張委員嘉郡：那亮采原本的約有沒有履約？"],["陳部長駿季：亮采的約是到4月，它4月之前都有履約。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以有沒有履約？"],["陳部長駿季：4月之前都有履約。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你確定亮采有履約？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這個要看……"],["張委員嘉郡：那照你這樣講，他們都沒有問題啊！"],["陳部長駿季：不是、不是，我覺得可能要釐清，就是亮采的合約是到4月。"],["張委員嘉郡：那它有履約嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：4月以後的部分……"],["張委員嘉郡：我問你，它有沒有履約？"],["陳部長駿季：它有交蛋就有履約啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：所以他們應該是沒有問題啊，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：不是。"],["張委員嘉郡：應該是他們兩邊都沒有問題啊！如果照你這樣講，沒有什麼問題啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，亮采的合約是到4月，4月以後所有的進口都是貨到付款的方式……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以這個最匪夷所思的是，如果照你這樣講，亮采也沒有問題，超思也沒有問題啊！"],["陳部長駿季：他們兩個私法人的關係，以農業部的督導角度，我們覺得應該去釐清，所以我們移請法……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以如果都沒有問題的話，為什麼要移送檢調？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["張委員嘉郡：因為你有移送就是有問題嘛！你自己也覺得有問題啊！"],["陳部長駿季：移送不代表有問題，移送是希望把這個事情做一個釐清。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你自己內部都沒辦法釐清？你是付錢的人，你沒辦法釐清？"],["陳部長駿季：我們沒有問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：你付錢給誰你不知道？"],["陳部長駿季：畜產會絕對沒問題，因為……"],["張委員嘉郡：絕對沒問題，你現在敢跟我保證嗎？你敢幫畜產會保證嗎？我跟你說，你這個太嚴重了，你要幫它保證的話就嚴重了。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，貨到付款、付錢的這個程序都沒問題，貨到付款是它拿到貨然後付錢，這沒問題。但是超思跟亮采之間的私人關係……"],["張委員嘉郡：那我再請教部長，農業部補助畜產會冷藏倉儲租金1,165萬，跟雞蛋的託運費295萬，總共1,460萬，結果畜產會實際核銷只有723萬，所以就是可以追繳回50%的補助款，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為這邊講的1,165跟295是計畫當初核定的，但是最後實際的核銷……"],["張委員嘉郡：那它有繳回嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們當初已在口頭的時候說要繳回，現在在走行政程序。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以它到現在都還沒有繳回？"],["陳部長駿季：那是一個行政程序，在過……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以到現在都還沒有繳回？"],["陳部長駿季：他們會繳回，但是現在在行政程序當中。"],["張委員嘉郡：我就是做一個結論，政府的錢幾億元都可以給沒有簽約的公司，幾百萬的補助費給得也很隨便，農業部到底是出了什麼問題？我覺得這一點，部長，你一定要抓緊啊！你要好好地落實，要求你下面的人要能夠仔細地盤查，好不好？拜託你。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會努力地去把這個事情做釐清，我們也做了行政調查報告，有相關疑慮的地方，我們也送請檢調單位在查處了。"],["張委員嘉郡：加油！"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請張啓楷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.30409375,"end":8.856593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.185343750000001,"end":11.286593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.89409375,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.547843750000002,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.652843750000002,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.84659375,"end":19.875968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.32721875,"end":22.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.89659375,"end":24.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.68971875,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.516593750000002,"end":25.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.96784375,"end":49.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.424093750000004,"end":54.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.78596875,"end":59.633468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.98784375,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.69221875,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.48034375,"end":71.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.39534375000001,"end":82.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.56784375000001,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.81971875,"end":120.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.15971875000001,"end":143.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.28284375,"end":150.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.69096875,"end":155.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.39909375000002,"end":159.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.12846875,"end":160.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.09034375000002,"end":160.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.57971875,"end":180.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.87596875,"end":193.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.19909375,"end":204.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.72471875000002,"end":205.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.65284375000002,"end":224.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.01284375,"end":228.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.48471875,"end":283.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.14284375,"end":284.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.45909375,"end":306.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.63721875000005,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.03909375,"end":327.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.54096875000005,"end":327.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.59159375,"end":327.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.65909375,"end":340.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.12534375,"end":343.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.99409375000005,"end":347.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.04471875,"end":344.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.45346875,"end":348.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.74034375,"end":348.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.07784375,"end":348.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.55034375,"end":349.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.87909375000004,"end":353.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.67596875000004,"end":360.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.34596875,"end":365.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.25659375000004,"end":375.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.17471875,"end":380.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.42721875,"end":396.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.05909375000005,"end":387.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.32346875,"end":414.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.15659375,"end":413.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.04221875,"end":417.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.75034375,"end":425.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.87221875,"end":423.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.45846875,"end":423.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.59346875,"end":430.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.37284375,"end":433.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.45721875000004,"end":431.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.48221875,"end":433.71846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.88721875000005,"end":434.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.81534375,"end":436.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.32534375,"end":441.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.68784375,"end":441.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.25721875000005,"end":444.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.34159375,"end":442.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.70846875,"end":445.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.39159375,"end":457.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.45909375,"end":449.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.09096875,"end":454.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.22534375000004,"end":458.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.67221875,"end":461.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.81534375,"end":463.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.74346875000003,"end":463.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.03034375000004,"end":465.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.18596875000003,"end":467.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.40096875,"end":471.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.53534375000004,"end":471.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.61971875,"end":471.72096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.19346875,"end":474.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.64034375000006,"end":479.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.72409375,"end":478.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.02784375000005,"end":484.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.88346875,"end":493.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.91596875000005,"end":496.18971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.18971875000005,"end":496.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.47659375,"end":500.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.59471875,"end":497.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.80534375,"end":498.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.34534375000004,"end":505.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.39909375,"end":510.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.95534375000005,"end":512.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.6597187500001,"end":513.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.03096875,"end":513.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.16596875,"end":513.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.58784375,"end":517.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.2078437499999,"end":515.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.4272187500001,"end":517.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.06409375,"end":517.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.1484687500001,"end":519.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.0090937499999,"end":520.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.9328437500001,"end":524.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.5022187500001,"end":533.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.5303437499999,"end":543.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.67159375,"end":545.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.1059687500001,"end":549.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.81846875,"end":555.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.0959687500001,"end":564.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.65596875,"end":564.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.76971875,"end":564.7865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.90471875,"end":568.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.6340937500001,"end":570.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.20346875,"end":571.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.8572187500001,"end":573.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.07221875,"end":575.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.26159375,"end":577.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.4934687500001,"end":591.1453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.71909375,"end":599.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.5828437499999,"end":609.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.24409375,"end":608.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.5222187500001,"end":609.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.80846875,"end":614.1459687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.603,"end":17.692,"text":"主席 謝謝我想請部長我們再請陳部長部長早安"},{"start":26.622,"end":48.152,"text":"農業移工的問題我想大家都非常的關心尤其我們雲林縣我每一次跟我們的農民在對話他們都告訴我說真的非常需要農業移工而且呢他們其實合法的管道對於他們來說非常的困難完全是緩不濟急為什麼會有這樣子的狀況呢部長"},{"start":49.512,"end":70.593,"text":"我想分為兩個層次就是說現在的移工本身有一部分是他本身的規模比較大的大農場但是他的合配比比較高所以他沒有辦法請到那另外一部分就是他想要請外籍移工但是他的規模沒到到那邊所以我們根據這個已經降低了相關準備降低他的相關門檻"},{"start":71.474,"end":88.097,"text":"是部長我希望說我們可以更彈性一點就是更彈性一點讓真正缺工的這些農民可以請到移工否則你可以看我們臺灣的這個農業就業人口比10年前下降了7個百分點"},{"start":88.658,"end":88.698,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":103.715,"end":103.895,"text":"拜訪農民"},{"start":121.241,"end":122.742,"text":"現在目前8505人大概70%那我們估計到年底就會額滿"},{"start":150.708,"end":180.708,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":182.91,"end":203.785,"text":"這個合配比的部分是勞動部的一個規劃那我們會積極的去爭取包括我剛才說的我先處理10人以上的35%我希望說能夠朝向1比1的方式就是說沒有必要鎖定1比1啊就是這樣子的話變成是他本勞都請不到他外勞更請不到你等於鎖死了他所有的機會啊"},{"start":205.786,"end":214.691,"text":"我是希望說你們跟勞動部可以趕快妥善的一起研議啊那如果說是不是有辦法說你如果一比一假設他只有一個農民對一個一個外勞他們兩個溝通不了你有辦法成立類似小團體他外勞團體他可以輪著去不同的農場我覺得這也是一個可行的辦法啊對 這個就是我們以農會為核心的就是"},{"start":228.539,"end":237.069,"text":"但是你農會你也設定了很多的一個比例讓他沒有辦法好好的去申請我提醒部長一件事情日本跟我們一樣他們現在邁向高齡少子化的社會他們的農業跟我們一樣也缺工"},{"start":242.916,"end":262.191,"text":"所以他們現在要鬆綁外籍移工的法規限制而且可以領到假設他們領到日本特定技能勞工第二類的身份就可以申請無限期延長簽證可以攜帶家屬同行之外最終得以申請"},{"start":263.112,"end":264.052,"text":"您剛才講日本人的案例據我了解其實勞動部也針對這個勞工的相關的法規在做檢討"},{"start":292.04,"end":292.14,"text":"您是專業的這個"},{"start":309.045,"end":309.746,"text":"我們會來努力"},{"start":328.044,"end":349.499,"text":"另外這個是從今天早上到現在大家都想知道的請問部長取得中央續產會2022年8月採購日本雞蛋的合約公司到底是哪一家公司我想以續產會來講就是是不是量財我們是採貨到付款我先問你嘛我說是不是量財量財我了解是量財進口雞蛋"},{"start":354.738,"end":375.244,"text":"那我想要知道說量彩是一個依美生物科技人力仲介的這樣子資本額只有100萬的公司為什麼當初量彩可以拿到合約呢?第一個因為這件事情我稍微問了我們同仁基本上的營業項目是符合的第一個營業項目是符合的第二個我剛才說的我們在當初"},{"start":376.244,"end":378.587,"text":"我可以再問一下部長就是說那為什麼童年付款的對象卻變成是超市呢到底是跟誰簽約給誰輸入許可應該就是要付錢給誰為什麼他們"},{"start":393.024,"end":393.464,"text":"9月付款給操司是簽約還是買斷?"},{"start":418.806,"end":429.636,"text":"在4月以後幾乎都是買斷的方式 4月以後沒有 4月以後都是買斷的方式 我就是問你你確認說9月付款給超市是簽約還是買斷?不知道 因為都是買斷的 那亮采原本的約有沒有履約?亮采的約是到4月 4月之前都有履約啊 所以你確定亮采有履約?"},{"start":446.428,"end":449.229,"text":"我問你他有沒有履約所以應該是沒有問題啊"},{"start":466.206,"end":467.947,"text":"所以這個最匪夷所思的是 如果照你這樣講 量產也沒有問題 超市也沒有問題啊"},{"start":484.957,"end":493.002,"text":"所以如果都沒有問題的話為什麼要移送減掉?因為你有移送就是有問題嘛你自己也覺得有問題啊移送不代表有問題移送是希望把這個事情做一個釐清"},{"start":506.463,"end":512.366,"text":"所以你自己內部都沒辦法釐清你是付錢的人你沒辦法釐清我們沒有問題你付錢給誰你不知道續產會絕對沒問題因為絕對沒問題你現在敢掛保證嗎你敢幫續產會保證嗎我跟你說你這個太嚴重了你要幫他保證的話就嚴重了"},{"start":525.371,"end":532.52,"text":"這個程序都沒問題 貨到付款 他拿到貨了 然後付錢就沒問題 那我再請教部長 農業部這個補俱續產會 冷藏倉儲租金1165萬 跟雞蛋的托運費295萬 總共1460萬"},{"start":545.027,"end":547.989,"text":"結果續產會實際核銷只有723萬所以可以就是追繳回50%的補助款對不對"},{"start":556.901,"end":575.449,"text":"對,因為這邊講的一些1165跟295是計劃當初核定的,但是最後實際的核銷...那他有繳回嗎?我們在當初口頭的時候已經說要繳回,現在在做行政程序所以他到現在都還沒有繳回?那個是一個行政程序在過...所以到現在都還沒有繳回?對,他們會繳回,但是現在在行政程序當中"},{"start":576.389,"end":590.843,"text":"我我我就是一個結論啊就是政府的錢幾億元都可以給沒有簽約的公司幾百萬的補助費給的也很隨便農業部到底是出了什麼問題我覺得這一點部長你一定要"},{"start":591.824,"end":592.405,"text":"拜託你"}]}},{"id":"154368","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154368","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c9a9d87d0c78515b24b539dbd63c1cc91e70b5822ad681b89fb7ad41ffc832ae65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:26:53 - 11:32:52","影片長度":"00:05:59","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:26:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:32:52+08:00","duration":359,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":572,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時26分）有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["羅委員智強：部長，請教你有公務車嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["羅委員智強：你會用公務車載你的家人、太太、小孩去賞櫻花嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們分隔兩地在臺中、臺北，好像很難。"],["羅委員智強：如果有在一起的時候，你會不會讓你的公務車載你的家人，或是爸爸媽媽、親戚朋友、太太、小孩？會不會？載去賞櫻花。"],["林部長佳龍：賞櫻花是沒有這個經驗。"],["羅委員智強：那會不會載他們去旅遊？"],["林部長佳龍：也沒有這個經驗。"],["羅委員智強：沒有這個經驗嘛！那你覺得俞大大使在美國用公務車載太太去賞櫻花，這是我們外交的慣例嗎？我們所有大使都是這樣做的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：他本身有講有嘛！"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["林部長佳龍：因為在華府，當然櫻花季節，是一個什麼樣的背景，那我們也會進一步瞭解。"],["羅委員智強：我要問的就是，這是不是慣例？那我再問一個問題……"],["林部長佳龍：應該不是慣例。但是當然因為座車，其實在臺灣已經比較有規範，因為我們有時候就是會有些非公務行程，可能會油錢……"],["羅委員智強：我還沒講到油錢，我講的是家人。我也曾有公務車，我在總統府當副秘書長的時候也有公務車，但至少我的作法或是那時候馬政府的要求，基本上我的家人是從沒上過那個公務車，從沒上去過。"],["林部長佳龍：是，一定是以公務為原則。"],["羅委員智強：那我要問，目前俞大使說：難道你沒坐過公務車嗎？順便載一下。這是公務耶！順便載一下，難道你沒有做過這種事嗎？順便把家人載一下。"],["林部長佳龍：你是問我還是問他？"],["羅委員智強：我說的是俞大，他反問記者啊！說你沒有坐過公務車嗎？順便把你送回家。意思是順便把家人送回家也沒什麼了不起啦！"],["林部長佳龍：當然政務官在一些判斷上，他自己要決定也要負責任，那當然我們每一個人就是要遵守一條規範嘛！"],["羅委員智強：基本上我整理一下，剛剛部長的意思其實是，這其實也不是我們駐外人員的慣例，對不對？帶家人去賞櫻花，然後順便載一下，是慣例嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不是。"],["羅委員智強：不是嘛！那為什麼我們的俞大使會違反慣例？"],["林部長佳龍：這個要由他來說明，但因為在華府，他公務車的使用為什麼會有這個行程……"],["羅委員智強：我坦白跟部長講，剛剛雖然我們外交及國防委員會是認為不需要召回大使，但我其實有另外的不同看法，當然尊重外交及國防委員會的決定。舉個例子，我這樣講不知道部長認不認同，因為至少我以前在總統府工作，外交工作大概有三個重要的支柱，外交部長您，還有一個是國安會秘書長，另外就是駐美大使，以我們的外交工作最重要的就是這個鐵三角。我不知道你認不認同？工作職分上。"],["林部長佳龍：這三個角色都很重要。"],["羅委員智強：非常重要。因此，駐美大使的所謂代表性和公信力是非常重要的。我現在請問部長，您應該是賴清德總統屬意的外交部長，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["羅委員智強：當然是，要不然他怎麼會找你！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["羅委員智強：是他任命你的嘛！而且他是新總統上任，你是陪他一起上任的，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["羅委員智強：國安會秘書長吳釗燮是他任命的，也是陪他一起上任的，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["羅委員智強：我們的駐美大使，目前來講有得賴清德的信任嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["羅委員智強：有啊？是他任命的嗎？我說是跟他一起同步上來。他上來多久了？"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們駐外的大使基本上都是延續。"],["羅委員智強：延續，對，我知道，那請問他做多久了？"],["林部長佳龍：大概半年吧！"],["羅委員智強：去年12月開始做。我直接跟部長預言，因為就我最近觀察賴清德總統的用人模式，我覺得這件事情，有的人講陰謀論，包括裡面所有的，當然有些部分看起來是澄清，部長也認為報導裡面講的有些跟事實不符、對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：有不正確的地方。"],["羅委員智強：有不正確的地方，但是也有正確的地方嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：對，就是數字有些有出入，但有些項目社會上大家有一些看法。"],["羅委員智強：至少剛剛講的賞櫻花，顯然就是正確的，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：不過我跟委員講，其實駐外大使的太太也兼具一部分外交的功能。"],["羅委員智強：當然，沒關係，那你剛剛也講……"],["林部長佳龍：但是這個行程到底是怎麼樣，當然他也有說明不是公務的……"],["羅委員智強：你剛剛也講不是慣例。沒關係，我跟部長說……"],["林部長佳龍：但是是什麼情況……"],["羅委員智強：我的預言還沒講完。我覺得我們的大使今天會有這麼大的風波，在後面當然我覺得有些人事運作的過程，依照賴清德總統的用人的話，半年內我覺得這大使恐怕就未必能保住了。當然我這個預言也不用……你自己就放在心裡，我們就來看看半年內他會不會！駐美大使其實是總統的外交三支柱之一，是非常重要的一件事情，但如果真的是想要有一些所謂人事更替的話，我覺得其實總統就直接表達意志就好了，有些時候外交人員在前線工作上，當然外面有很多揣測，希望部長能夠參考一下。以上，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請洪申翰委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.38034375,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.94096875,"end":9.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.970343750000001,"end":15.555968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.75409375,"end":23.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.47034375,"end":25.883468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.91721875,"end":31.418468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.90784375,"end":32.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.025968750000004,"end":32.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.135343750000004,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.016593750000006,"end":38.759093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.079718750000005,"end":54.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.02659375,"end":78.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.28784375,"end":57.338468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.80534375,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.60096875,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.59659375000001,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.99284375,"end":82.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.64659375000001,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.87284375,"end":95.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.93159375,"end":96.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.28596875000001,"end":96.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.80471875,"end":99.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.64159375000001,"end":117.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.36284375000001,"end":122.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.46409375,"end":118.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.68659375000001,"end":127.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.70721875000001,"end":128.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.46659375000002,"end":144.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.22096875,"end":134.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.90409375000002,"end":138.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.13909375,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.18096875,"end":154.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.41159375,"end":167.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.07346875000002,"end":162.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.97096875,"end":172.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.62409375000001,"end":174.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.63221875000002,"end":184.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.48721875,"end":190.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.46096875,"end":194.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.03846875000002,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.69221875000002,"end":198.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.69221875000002,"end":200.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.57784375,"end":199.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.97846875000002,"end":206.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.63159375,"end":208.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.58909375000002,"end":214.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.59221875,"end":222.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.46034375000002,"end":223.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.50659375,"end":230.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.57721875000001,"end":231.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.35346875000002,"end":236.28096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.14159375000003,"end":239.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.47034375,"end":258.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.42284375000003,"end":247.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.72471875,"end":260.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.51346875,"end":271.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.32596875,"end":273.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.66721875,"end":279.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.05096875000004,"end":277.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.35846875000004,"end":302.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.48471875,"end":283.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.52659375,"end":285.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.79221875,"end":286.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.55471875,"end":293.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.39846875,"end":295.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.01409375000003,"end":300.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.73034375000003,"end":308.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.57346875,"end":322.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.15346875,"end":325.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.49471875,"end":329.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.70096875,"end":339.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.47159375,"end":344.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.46659375,"end":348.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.05659375000005,"end":350.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.29659375,"end":353.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.35971875,"end":357.15659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.249,"end":14.805,"text":"請部長部長請教一下你有公務車嗎?有你會用公務車載你的家人、太太、小孩去上櫻花嗎?"},{"start":16.786,"end":37.265,"text":"我們分隔兩地好像很難在台中台北如果有在一起的時候你會不會讓你的公務車載你的家人或是爸爸媽媽親戚朋友太太小孩會不會在你賞櫻花賞櫻花是沒有這個經驗會不會在他們去旅遊呢"},{"start":39.193,"end":66.076,"text":"也沒有這個經驗沒有這個經驗那你覺得我們的余大磊我們的大使在美國用公務車在泰坦去賞櫻花你覺得這是我們外交的慣例嗎是我們所有大使都是這樣做的嗎因為他本身有講有嘛因為在華府當然櫻花季節是一個什麼樣的背景那我們也會進一步來了解所以我要問就是說這是不是慣例啊"},{"start":67.257,"end":77.608,"text":"應該不是慣例啦但是當然因為坐車齁其實在台灣已經比較有規範因為我們有時候就是會有一些非公務行程可能會有錢啦因為我還沒講到有錢啦我講的是家人啦"},{"start":82.473,"end":107.346,"text":"我也有公務車過在總務府的時候當副部長也有公務車但至少我的做法或是那時候馬政府的要求基本上我的家人是從沒上過那個公務車一定是以公務為這個原則那我要問我對目前我們余大使他說難道你沒坐過公務車嗎順便再一下這是公務"},{"start":108.666,"end":122.555,"text":"順便再一下,難道沒有做過這種事嗎?順便把佳龍再一下。你是問我還是問他?我說是余大磊啊,他反問記者啊。你沒有坐過公務車嗎?順便把你送回家。"},{"start":124.741,"end":150.979,"text":"意思是順便家人送回家裡沒什麼了不起啦其實當然政務官在一些判斷上他自己要決定也要負責任那我們當然每一個人就是要遵守一條規範所以基本上我剛剛整理一下剛剛部長其實意思是說這也其實不是我們住外人員的慣例嘛 對不對帶家人去賞櫻花然後順便再一下是慣例嗎不是不是嘛"},{"start":151.88,"end":174.451,"text":"那為什麼我們的余大使會違反慣例呢?這個由他來說明啦,但因為在華府,那他公布這個使用為什麼會有這個形式?所以我坦白跟部長講,剛剛雖然我們的外交國防委員會是認為說不需要召回大使但是我其實是有另外不同的看法,當然尊重外交國防委員會的決定啦我舉個例子喔"},{"start":175.714,"end":199.56,"text":"應該我這樣講我不知道部長認不認同因為我至少我以前在總府工作外交工作大概有三個重要的支柱啦外交部長您嘛 對不對然後一個是國安會秘書長啦另外一個就是駐美大使以我們外交工作最重要的就是這個鐵三角我不知道你認不認同這三個角色都很重要"},{"start":201.061,"end":224.77,"text":"所以因此駐美大使他的所謂的代表性跟公信力是非常重要的我現在問一下就是說請問部長您應該是賴清德總統主義的外交部長對不對當然是啊不然他怎麼會找是他任命你的嘛對不對而且他是新總統上任你是陪他一起上任的嘛對不對是對我們的國安會秘書長吳釗燮也是他這個"},{"start":227.261,"end":227.621,"text":"請問他做多久了"},{"start":250.478,"end":253.18,"text":"有不正確的地方,但是也有正確的地方。"},{"start":280.607,"end":302.334,"text":"對,就是數字有些有出入嘛,但是有些項目大家...至少剛剛講賞櫻花就顯然就正確了嘛,對不對?不過我跟委員講齁,其實在駐外的大使齁,他的太太也兼助一部分外交的工人當然當然,沒關係但是這個行程啊,到底怎麼樣,當然他有說明齁,不是公布的,但是是什麼情況...因為我的預言還沒講完啦"},{"start":304.283,"end":324.519,"text":"我覺得我們的大使今天會有這麼大的風波在後面當然我覺得有一些人事運作的過程在裡面依照賴清哲總統用人的話半年內我覺得這大使恐怕就未必能保住了但我這預言你自己就放在心裡我們就看看半年內他會不會駐美大使其實是總統"},{"start":326.57,"end":326.81,"text":"謝謝委員執教"},{"start":353.953,"end":356.579,"text":"謝謝接下來請洪森翰委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154367","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154367","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726cbd73809426eb553921a3f23b3ad13ea2e70b5822ad681b890d930ff7604c75255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:16:09 - 11:23:22","影片長度":"00:07:13","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:16:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:23:22+08:00","duration":433,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":756,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時16分）謝謝主席。在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，我們有請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有農輔司的陳司長、農糧署的蘇代理署長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、司長好、署長好。部長，在過去缺蛋的時候，我們是不是有協調讓我們的國軍弟兄少吃蛋，改用其他蛋白質？有嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那現在我們蛋很多，可不可以協調國防部請我們國軍弟兄多吃蛋？"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經有發文，因為蛋有非常好的蛋白質，然後一天吃兩個蛋也不會因為這樣子而膽固醇太高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在是蛋太多，所以我們是跟缺蛋的時候反過來操作。第二個問題，可能請署長或司長想一下，那一天有跟你請教檸檬的問題，你也很感心，有請副署長去瞭解，那我現在發現檸檬的問題主要是一個產銷的問題，因為檸檬一般是榨汁的，所以它的用藥殘留很嚴格。我知道互相對於彼此用藥最關心的就是酪農，因為酪農是一臺集乳車要開到好幾個牧場，所以只要有一個牧場的牛生病打了抗生素被驗出來，所有的牧場都會遭殃，所以他們互相彼此之間會顧慮到別人的乳品不要被污染，他們對自己牛隻的健康管理很重視，不會害到別人，你聽得懂我的意思嗎？就是像檸檬的這個事情，因為這是要榨汁的，如果有一區的檸檬施用農藥還沒有到期就採收了，跟別人的檸檬混在一起，會造成未來被品牌廠拒絕使用，所以對這個部分可不可以多加強宣導？"],["陳部長駿季：我想除了加強宣導，我們也要務實做到，因為在採收的時候，每一個果園如果噴藥不一致的時候，就會有非常大的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以請你們要跟他們講，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們會推動集團共同的防治。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好，這是附帶一問的。我要請教一下，你是不是農家子弟？"],["陳部長駿季：我應該不是吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你應該不是，我也不是，但是我學生時代有同學是農家子弟，他們跟我不一樣，他們不喜歡放暑假，你知道是什麼原因嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：要去幫忙家務、農務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，因為以前下田比較辛苦，他覺得上課讀書或是考試比較沒關係，所以他們考試都很厲害，因為怕要下田，但是現在時代不同了，我這邊創了一個農業學工，就是農忙下田、農閒上學，你有沒有聽過建教合作？以前是高職……"],["陳部長駿季：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：高職的建教合作只有暑假才去上工嗎？不是，是整個工廠的工班跟他們的學期分開來，在工廠不忙的時候，學校幫他們安排課程，這樣瞭解了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我現在開始詢問了，來，我們從業人口要跌破50萬，怎麼辦？是不是你們就說要移工，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我想從業人口50.9萬，基本上，我們覺得從主力的農家來講，他應該還有機會少一點，然後更精農一點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：更精準，所以不是量的問題而是質的問題？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我同意。好，我們來看，剛才都問農業的移工，有長期性的缺工跟季節性的缺工，你說有自行聘僱跟外展服務，你知道為什麼外展服務不好用嗎？司長，為什麼不好用？司長，我常常在問你啊！為什麼不好用？"],["陳司長俊言：大概在外展，因為他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我農會要有很多人，我才會聘請一定的數額嘛！"],["陳司長俊言：農會因為有員工的限制，所以他們不願意增加很多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果增加很多，他就不好調動，這裡缺兩個、缺三個，喬不平！農忙的時候喬不平，農閒的時候沒地方去，是不是這樣？還要管理嘛！"],["陳司長俊言：大概農閒不會讓他們閒，因為閒了會增加它的成本負擔。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以他們就不好管理。"],["陳司長俊言：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且我們同一個區的農會，大家產期、產值、項目都一樣，忙時大家都忙，都不夠用，四處去搶；閒的時候都沒地方去，就是這個問題，部長了解了？"],["陳部長駿季：我了解，深刻的了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們再看一看，你知道教育部過去有建教合作，現在有產學攜手嗎？你知道吧？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你知道有沒有辦新南向的合作班？產學合作班？"],["陳部長駿季：有，這個也有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：成效怎樣？"],["陳部長駿季：這個之前特別應該是在印尼、菲律賓的部分，成效非常好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟你講，一樣，遇到跟外展的問題一樣啦！因為讀大學的，他來這裡讀大學，學期是固定的，所以他們要利用上課之餘去實習，不見得農家好用，目前比較好用的就是畜牧業，因為養牛的，在那邊做工作是每天的。所以我現在是讓你回憶一下以前高職的建教合作，如果我們從高職，現在有個三加四，有沒有聽過三加四？高職3年、科大4年，總共7年，他16歲就來臺灣，可以參加這種的，在他讀書的時候，類似建教合作，他升科大以後，學校可以配合他的農忙去調節他的上課時間，這樣了解意思嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：了解？好。所以我們希望你思考一下，不要只從外籍移工來思考，不要讓勞動部覺得很麻煩。廠工，不是東廠的那個廠公，而是工廠的廠工，他們其實都是超時工作，早上5點去弄蛋做農事，8點去上班，5點下班以後再來偷做，其實勞動部不會同意，雖然他們很想要賺錢，鄉下也很常在用，但是學生不同，學生農業學工來這邊求學位，他花6、7年的時間，學校安排他的學習，農忙下田、農閒上課，你覺得可不可以考慮？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得可以考慮他們在暑假的時候，能夠到農場……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是寒暑假，他們的寒暑假不是根據學校的作息，是根據農業的需求來調整，因為是專班，你覺得有沒有可能？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得可以考慮，我覺得這個部分，特別是未來去培養他們變成農業的經營者是非常重要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，因為他們從馬來西亞、從印尼，他們很多人來學習就是要回去自己做老闆、自己開牧場或開農場的，所以這件事情，我要請教，你覺得教育部會不會支持，就是特別的專班，他的上課時間是配合農閒的時間來上課，農忙讓他們下田實習，你覺得有沒有可能？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得這要去談細節，然後有學校願意把它的課程跟農忙做配合……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我詢問你一下……"],["主席：針對這個部分，你們再詳實跟委員來說明清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：鄭英耀部長很支持，是不是你同意跟教育部研究新南向專班？"],["陳部長駿季：我一定會跟他們去討論，如果可以，我們一定往前走。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好不好？主席也支持啦！請兩位部長去商量，我就問到這裡，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主席、謝謝陳部長。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請張嘉郡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.87784375,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.004093750000003,"end":13.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.40846875,"end":16.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.20971875,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.22659375,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.39096875,"end":18.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.16721875,"end":19.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.14596875,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.20471875,"end":23.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.516593750000002,"end":24.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.938468750000002,"end":26.035343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.718468750000003,"end":29.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.49471875,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.671593750000003,"end":32.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.70096875,"end":33.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.52784375,"end":34.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.14784375,"end":39.096593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.704093750000006,"end":40.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.830343750000004,"end":42.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.52221875,"end":44.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.96096875,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.306593750000005,"end":47.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.09909375,"end":59.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.992843750000006,"end":55.110968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.080968750000004,"end":58.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.751593750000005,"end":60.679718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.86534375,"end":63.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.767843750000004,"end":67.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.48034375,"end":68.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.77971875,"end":70.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.15909375000001,"end":74.11221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.50034375,"end":77.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.97659375,"end":80.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.91284375000001,"end":82.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.19096875000001,"end":83.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.16971875,"end":85.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.84034375,"end":86.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.13971875,"end":87.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.01721875000001,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.24909375,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.12659375000001,"end":90.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.32471875,"end":92.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.53971875,"end":93.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.26534375,"end":98.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.10409375,"end":102.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.81659375000001,"end":106.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.05221875000001,"end":107.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.04784375000001,"end":109.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.14034375000001,"end":112.50284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.99221875,"end":118.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.93221875,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.58159375000001,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.66971875,"end":126.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.13784375,"end":129.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.98534375,"end":130.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.94721875000002,"end":133.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.24221875,"end":135.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.35159375,"end":145.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.86534375000002,"end":145.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.28659375,"end":151.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.18096875,"end":147.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.03659375,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.61034375,"end":155.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.29346875000002,"end":158.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.06096875,"end":162.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.12784375,"end":167.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.24159375000002,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.38909375,"end":165.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.78534375,"end":171.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.68346875,"end":173.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.13471875000002,"end":174.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.00784375,"end":176.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.81346875,"end":177.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.28159375,"end":180.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.16721875000002,"end":184.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.10346875000002,"end":184.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.11596875,"end":192.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.49034375000002,"end":197.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.99159375000002,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.47221875000002,"end":202.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.03721875000002,"end":208.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.79159375,"end":228.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.68534375000002,"end":216.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.85596875000002,"end":229.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.50971875000002,"end":249.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.46659375000002,"end":236.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.55909375000002,"end":240.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.32221875000002,"end":243.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.96659375000002,"end":250.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.15221875,"end":250.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.96221875,"end":260.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.40471875000003,"end":257.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.83409375,"end":263.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.19659375000003,"end":264.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.74909375000004,"end":265.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.64346875,"end":266.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.79096875,"end":267.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.20846875,"end":269.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.35596875000005,"end":273.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.92909375,"end":278.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.18221875,"end":274.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.72159375,"end":280.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.80596875000003,"end":280.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.45534375,"end":286.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.37909375000004,"end":286.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.63159375000004,"end":291.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.31034375,"end":292.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.91346875,"end":294.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.39846875,"end":295.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.10284375000003,"end":297.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.89159375,"end":301.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.55346875000004,"end":303.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.88221875,"end":305.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.45159375000003,"end":307.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.29096875000005,"end":308.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.77596875,"end":311.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.23971875,"end":317.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.45034375,"end":313.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.70346875,"end":313.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.98159375,"end":316.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.21346875,"end":317.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.73659375,"end":318.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.51284375,"end":319.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.72784375000003,"end":320.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.06096875000003,"end":322.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.39409375,"end":323.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.94659375000003,"end":328.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.38471875000005,"end":331.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.89471875000004,"end":332.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.89034375,"end":337.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.64909375,"end":344.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.29784375,"end":345.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.76596875,"end":349.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.30971875,"end":350.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.89596875,"end":351.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.44846875,"end":353.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.27096875,"end":354.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.43534375,"end":356.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.05534375,"end":358.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.23221875,"end":360.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.25721875000005,"end":362.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.06284375,"end":364.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.59846875000005,"end":365.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.23534375,"end":368.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.24346875000003,"end":369.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.96471875000003,"end":371.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.60159375,"end":377.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.87909375000004,"end":397.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.19096875,"end":381.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.56096875000003,"end":388.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.31534375,"end":395.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.84659375,"end":397.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.09534375000004,"end":405.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.58346875,"end":407.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.30909375000005,"end":408.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.69284375,"end":414.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.05471875,"end":433.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.80909375000005,"end":421.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.26034375,"end":425.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.02346875,"end":427.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.38596875,"end":431.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.68471875,"end":433.97159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.178,"end":18.129,"text":"謝謝主席﹚在場的委員先進﹚列席的政府機關所長官員﹚會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生﹚我們有請陳部長﹚我們再請陳部長﹚對﹚還有農府司的陳司長﹚農糧署的蘇代理署長好﹚以上二位一併"},{"start":28.912,"end":47.609,"text":"委員長 部長好 市長好 署長好部長 過去勤勞的時候 我們是不是協調我們的國軍弟兄 少吃蛋 改用其他蛋白質 有嗎 有有 現在我們蛋很多 可不可以協調國防部 請我們國軍弟兄多吃蛋"},{"start":50.351,"end":69.27,"text":"我想我們已經發文就是請我們的因為蛋有非常好的蛋白質然後一天吃兩個蛋也不會因為這樣子而有一些膽固醇現在是蛋太多跟缺蛋多我們反過來操作第二個問題可能署長或市長這邊想一下那天跟你請到雷鳳的問題"},{"start":71.306,"end":90.694,"text":"你也很好感心 請副市長去了解我現在發現檸檬的問題主要是一個產銷的問題就是說對於因為檸檬它是加價的所以它的用藥殘留很嚴格那我知道對於彼此互相用藥最關心的就是什麼?"},{"start":90.694,"end":97.056,"text":"酪農啊因為酪農 他們不可能一台冷車是集乳車啦 不是冷車 不要聽錯了"},{"start":99.315,"end":122.334,"text":"一輪車是一台車要載幾輪的木頭所以說只要一個牧場有牛生病打了抗生素驗出來整個所有的木頭都在用所以互相他們彼此之間對彼此顧慮到別人的乳品不要被污染他們對自己的牛吃的管理、健康管理很重視不會害到別人你聽懂意思嗎?所以說這個雷夢的事情是假的"},{"start":124.736,"end":150.188,"text":"你如果用農藥,不夠機率就燒到別人的臨座會．會造成未來品牌廠它拒絕使用．所以這個部分可不可以多加強宣導我想除了加強宣導我們也要務實做到．就是說因為你在燒的每一口產．如果噴藥不一次的時候．你會有非常大的問題．所以我們會推動就是集團的共同的防治這是附帶疑問的我請教一下你是不是農家主帝"},{"start":153.103,"end":154.924,"text":"我這邊創造一個叫做農業學工啦"},{"start":178.82,"end":202.018,"text":"農忙、下田、農閒、上學啊你有沒有聽過建教合作以前他叫施謙是在課金有有高職的建教合作只有暑假才去上工嗎?不是不是他是整個的工廠的工班跟他們的學期把他分開來工廠不忙的時候學校幫他們安排課程這樣了解了齁?對我現在開始詢問了來我們從業人口要跌破50萬那怎麼辦?是不是你們就要移工是不是這樣?"},{"start":203.246,"end":229.461,"text":"我講從業林口本身50.9萬基本上我們覺得他從主力的農家來講他應該還有機會少一點然後更精準所以不是量的問題是質的問題我同意好了我們看剛才都問農業的移工有長期的移工長期的缺工跟季節性的缺工你說有自行聘僱跟外展服務你知道為什麼外展服務不好用嗎?市長有什麼好用?市長你說知道我常常問你啊有什麼好用?"},{"start":230.523,"end":240.415,"text":"大概在外展的話,因為他...我農會要有很多人,我知道他一定會受害嘛。農會喔,他原本要限制啦,所以說他...不管你說政策很多啦。如果我們政策多,他就派調動,這裡站兩個,站三個,炒白白。農盲的時候炒白白,農選的時候沒得去,是不是這樣?"},{"start":250.026,"end":253.288,"text":"所以我們來看一看你知道教育部過去有建教合作現在有產學攜手嗎?"},{"start":273.956,"end":295.334,"text":"你知道有沒有辦那個新南向的這個合作班?這個之前我們特別是在應該是印尼菲律賓的部分那個成交非常好我跟你講一樣遇到跟那個外展一樣因為那個特大學他在這特大學學期是固定的"},{"start":296.181,"end":316.589,"text":"所以說他要在用上課之餘去實習不見得農家好用目前比較好用的就是畜牧業因為是有的,在那裡做工的,每天的往下看所以我現在是說讓你回憶一下高職的以前的建交合作如果說我們從高職,現在有個3加4有沒有聽過3加4"},{"start":318.79,"end":335.656,"text":"3年後,4年後,7年後,他16歲就來台灣．他能參加這項在他讀書時的類似建交合作．他生課大了．他可以好好配合．他的農忙去挑戰他的上課時間．了解意思嗎?"},{"start":335.656,"end":343.739,"text":"了解了解,我們看一下．所以說我們希望你去思考一下．不要只從外籍移工來思考．不要讓勞動部覺得很麻煩．廠工啊．"},{"start":345.78,"end":359.966,"text":"我不是東廠的那個工喔 是廠工 工廠的廠工 因為其實都是什麼 都是超時工作啦 早上5點去餵米糧啦 8點去上班啦 5點下班之後就來偷走啦 其實還沒辦法動他啦"},{"start":361.466,"end":382.098,"text":"雖然他們很想賺錢 錢也很常用 但是學生不同 學生 農業 學工 他來這邊求學位 他花六七年的時間 學校安排他的學習 農忙 下田 農閒 上課 你覺得可不可以考慮我覺得可以考慮他們在暑假的時候 能不能到農場 不是暑假 他們的寒暑假"},{"start":382.458,"end":405.795,"text":"不是根據學校的作息是根據農業的需求來調整因為是專班你覺得可沒有可能我覺得可以去考慮我覺得這個部分特別是未來去培養他們變成農業的經營者是一個非常重要的因為他們對於馬來、對於印尼他們很多人如果學習就是要回去自己當老闆自己開房子所以我這個事情要請教你覺得教育部會不會支持"},{"start":406.638,"end":423.769,"text":"就是說特別的專班他的上課時間是配合農閒的時間來上課 農盲讓他們下田實習你認為有沒有可能我覺得這個要去談細節然後有願意有學校願意把他的課程跟農盲做配合我覺得一定會跟他們去討論好不好主席也支持啦 這樣請兩個部長去參詳啦 我就問到這好不好"}]}},{"id":"154365","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154365","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c1a00edb74a9225f021a3f23b3ad13ea2e70b5822ad681b895b23da5efbb1608e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:05:40 - 11:16:03","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:05:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:16:03+08:00","duration":623,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時6分）謝謝主席，我們請農業部部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我們在講農業缺工，事實上包括AI的興起，無人機大概也變成未來農業缺工的一個利器之一。在講農業缺工的時候，當然我們知道2019年開始推動「無人機精準農業與農噴應用元年」，2019年開始，對於農噴就有人在使用無人機來噴藥，但是使用無人機噴藥事實上也是有一些狀況，這個狀況就是無人機噴藥時有可能會噴到隔壁的田或是噴到人，請問這個部分有怎樣的規範嗎？也就是你們對無人機的使用規範為何？無人機在噴藥時如果噴灑到隔壁的田要怎麼辦？因為它不像農民背農藥噴灑器在噴灑農藥這樣準確，現在用無人機去噴藥的時候，萬一噴到隔壁的田要怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我們分兩個部分，第一個部分就是無人機噴藥時如果噴到別人的田是否需要負賠償責任，這個牽涉到舉證的問題，因為無人機在噴灑農藥時，如果隔壁的田有人在的時候，通常不會發生這種誤噴，這種的都是黑飛的啦，黑飛的部分就要靠後端的這些去查證，如果查證屬實的話，就代表他違反了相關的規定，因為他必須取得相關證照才能飛，而且飛的時候必須把航線上傳，我們可以用這個方式去處罰他，但是對於他誤噴的這個部分，因為牽涉到舉證的問題，會比較困擾。"],["蔡委員易餘：舉證問題當然是比較困難。針對無人機噴藥的部分，目前你們的規定是需要證件啦……"],["陳部長駿季：對，雙證照。"],["蔡委員易餘：雙證照嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們還規定一定要具有法人資格，以具備法人資格這一點來說，很多農民購買農用無人機，但因為他是自然人，所以就沒有辦法取得接案代噴的機會，所以你們認為這個法人資格是必要性的嗎？還是說這個可以去做個檢討？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，要求要具有法人資格，其實我們當初考量的是萬一有什麼問題時的保險部分，然後也是一個過渡，就是說我們希望在一開始的時候，有一個法人能夠讓有飛手的無人機加入，只是一個加入的動作就可以了，這樣未來在追蹤及管理方面會比較單純，而不是由自然人去處理，當初的設計是這樣子，後續如果無人機越來越普遍的時候，我們也會考慮個人是不是可以去做申請。"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣的法人資格，比方說我是合作社呢？合作社可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以，你要登記法人應該也可以啊！只要登記為法人就可以。"],["蔡委員易餘：我用合作社來申請，然後合作社裡面的飛手，只要他具有雙證照，他就可以使用？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個我們會重新通盤來檢討，因為我們現在的政策就是要推一鄉鎮一個農事服務業，農事服務業裡有一個重要的部分就是無人機噴藥的部分，所以這個部分我們會配套的去重新調整遊戲規則。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，如果有要調整的時候，是不是再跟我們辦公室說明一下？"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們一定會去就教於委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那我們再回到今天的主題，就是在講農業移工缺工的狀況，事實上，農業是很特殊，部長你一定很清楚，農業的缺工是屬於季節性的缺工，所以變成除了透過外展或者其他媒合的平臺，不然在農業上真正需要移工而真的符合的農業品項不多，可能是畜牧業或可能是蘭花，他們是一整年都有工作要做，可是一般的農業就是季節性，就是在大季的時候需要，如果小季的時候就不需要移工，所以對他來說，移工是一個額外的成本，所以他們每個人都會將本求利，所以變成說如果去找合法的移工，成本會太高，那當然大家都要找黑工，就是去找這些逃逸的，就變成說他在勞力的缺口上所需要的反而是類似這樣的逃逸外勞，所以這個很矛盾啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，你難道都沒有想過這些問題嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，的確現在那種短時間、季節性的缺工才是一個比較大的核心問題，所以我們在做移工外展服務的時候，過去都不能跨區，現在可以跨區，像今天在嘉義一個地區的工作做完之後，他可以跨區到其他的地方工作，如果這樣的話，移工本身工作的時間不會有問題，這種方式也可以解決其他地區的缺工問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，可是外展我們也推了四年多了吧！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：可是你有沒有發現事實上真正在用外展的還是我剛剛講的，可能是在畜牧業，就是比較集中型的產業，因為一整年都有工作，所以他去用外展。"],["陳部長駿季：對，農糧的應該也有啊！"],["蔡委員易餘：跟其他的比起來，相對的……"],["陳部長駿季：當然畜牧業本身比較……"],["蔡委員易餘：畜牧業還是比較多。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：會變成說像這種我剛剛講的季節性缺工的，在用外展的、要這樣媒合的，相對還是很困難，部長，所以我要具體建議，請你們思考看看，就是以農業來說，農業可不可以因為其特殊性，然後我們讓外勞是可以兼職的？目前外勞是不是只能做一份工作？不管是哪一種外勞，可能是工廠的或者是……"],["陳部長駿季：就是透過勞動契約去限制。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，所以我們如果針對農業可以同意讓外勞兼職，然後就是在做農業，這樣你的問題都解決了，部長，你懂我的意思嗎？比方說，我是在做家庭照顧的外勞，如果我在農業缺工的這段期間，類似外展，讓他們去登記，讓他們兼職，不要說讓他去哪裡偷偷工作，然後被抓到就要把他送回去。你只要讓外勞可以兼職，讓他可以在工作之餘去兼著做什麼工作，就是單農業這一項，我們不要把他開放到其他的工業那裡，因為農業就是很特別的，你只要讓他兼職，那些逃逸的都沒有必要了，他就乖乖地做照顧、做長照的工作，都會乖乖的，不過他如果騰得出時間，就讓他去兼職，讓他去田裡幫忙除草，去田裡採瓜果，這樣有什麼不對？部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得你這個想法的確可以解決非常多的問題，但是這牽涉到勞動法規的限制，我會跟勞動部……"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊！所以我的意思是我們農業的特殊性要拿出來講，就是說我們農業為什麼外勞是沒有辦法解決，就是目前的外展或者是我們現在開放移工，可是這些移工進來以後，他都會偷跑，然後後來你也看到，事實上，我們大家都心照不宣，有很多農業找的那些外勞都是黑工，都是逃逸外勞，我們不能讓我們國家的逃逸外勞這麼多，我們總是要解決問題嘛！既然逃逸外勞就是想要一份工作，我們就從根本處理，讓他們不要逃走，不要再讓他們逃走，既然他想要兼做其他工作，就讓他去兼職。"],["陳部長駿季：今天勞動部也有派人來，我們會就這個訊息在後續再跟勞動部……"],["蔡委員易餘：勞動部今天有誰來？主秘來稍微講一下，請主席再給我30秒就好了，剛剛我講的你都有聽到嘛！"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是，謝謝委員的指教，關於這個部分，在就業服務法裡面，目前針對這種藍領的移工，我們是考慮到他有生活管理責任的問題，所以目前是一個移工、一個雇主，那這個部分如果要放寬讓他可以兼職的話，就會衍生他在兼職的過程當中，會有他的生活管理包括職災的發生或是逃逸的責任的歸屬問題……"],["蔡委員易餘：這個都是細部問題啊！"],["陳主任秘書世昌：對，所以那個部分可能還要再做一些研議。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個問題就是拿出來檢討就好了，就是讓他做類似外展的登記，在登記完以後，他在兼職工作的時候，由第二個雇主來負擔責任。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：這個部分可能還需要再研議，包括我們的移工……"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係，我是覺得你們要去研議這個部分，第一，你一定要解決，不要讓外勞都是偷跑的、都是這些逃逸外勞，這是你們一定要解決的第一個問題。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，你一定要解決農業缺工的問題，農業這種季節性缺工的問題沒辦法，因為農業的特性就是這個樣子，所以你們勞動部一定要去想辦法，好不好？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：我們會跨部會一起來努力。謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.2078437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1697187500000004,"end":4.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.262218750000001,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.64596875,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.388468750000001,"end":9.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.801593750000002,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.77971875,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.395343750000002,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.62721875,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.67346875,"end":19.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.43284375,"end":23.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.89221875,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.00596875,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.04284375,"end":32.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.173468750000005,"end":34.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.658468750000004,"end":35.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.16034375,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.518468750000004,"end":47.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.29346875,"end":52.697843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.84971875,"end":55.549718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.98846875,"end":61.000343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.47284375,"end":65.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.90659375,"end":69.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.77534375,"end":70.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.36596875000001,"end":71.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.54284375,"end":73.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.58909375,"end":75.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.35659375,"end":79.84971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.03534375000001,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.80721875,"end":82.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.91659375,"end":86.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.00471875000001,"end":88.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.46846875,"end":93.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.21034375,"end":98.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.73284375,"end":105.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.79909375000001,"end":107.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.98034375,"end":113.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.27909375,"end":115.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.92846875000001,"end":119.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.69159375000001,"end":124.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.70346875000001,"end":137.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.66346875000002,"end":140.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.95409375,"end":145.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.15596875,"end":145.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.96596875,"end":145.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.99971875,"end":150.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.50096875,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.39784375000002,"end":165.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.56659375,"end":163.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.04721875,"end":171.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.12221875,"end":174.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.05846875,"end":177.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.84284375000001,"end":183.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.32284375,"end":215.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.57534375,"end":215.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.96346875,"end":220.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.34659375,"end":223.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.48971875,"end":226.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.76346875000002,"end":231.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.34096875,"end":230.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.21846875000003,"end":235.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.01096875000002,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.16971875000002,"end":246.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.96284375000002,"end":247.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.38471875000002,"end":247.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.68846875000003,"end":252.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.69659375,"end":251.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.66659375,"end":254.42159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.89409375000002,"end":260.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.64846875,"end":261.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.11659375,"end":262.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.84221875000003,"end":278.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.60096875,"end":267.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.85409375,"end":267.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.89034375,"end":284.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.65721875,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.41596875,"end":291.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.17096875000004,"end":314.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.72221875,"end":302.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.91596875000005,"end":304.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.64846875,"end":315.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.06596875,"end":317.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.68596875000003,"end":328.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.42409375,"end":319.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.73909375,"end":329.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.11034375,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.03409375,"end":339.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.70784375,"end":340.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.27721875000003,"end":343.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.80846875000003,"end":346.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.62659375000004,"end":361.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.83534375000005,"end":361.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.49346875000003,"end":379.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.90659375,"end":364.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.02659375,"end":381.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.38096875,"end":379.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.96284375000005,"end":383.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.73909375000005,"end":386.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.78534375000004,"end":392.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.35034375000004,"end":386.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.86034375,"end":390.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.39159375,"end":397.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.85096875000005,"end":395.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.93534375,"end":395.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.96909375,"end":396.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.82534375,"end":398.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.00659375000004,"end":400.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.18346875000003,"end":403.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.32221875000005,"end":406.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.46534375000005,"end":407.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.65909375,"end":410.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.54471875,"end":412.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.06346875,"end":413.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.51909375,"end":413.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.53596875000005,"end":413.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.55284375,"end":413.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.56971875000005,"end":413.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.60346875000005,"end":416.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.00846875,"end":414.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.06721875000005,"end":419.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.69971875000005,"end":419.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.62784375,"end":424.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.84221875000003,"end":426.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.20471875000004,"end":428.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.75284375,"end":431.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.11534375,"end":433.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.65096875,"end":437.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.66784375000003,"end":434.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.67971875,"end":445.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.66596875000005,"end":448.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.23096875000005,"end":451.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.99409375000005,"end":457.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.91284375000004,"end":465.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.50659375000004,"end":471.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.29909375000005,"end":480.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.06596875,"end":478.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.00221875000005,"end":487.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.39784375000005,"end":489.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.94596875,"end":490.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.80221875,"end":501.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.00784375,"end":513.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.89346875,"end":502.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.09409375,"end":515.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.93346875,"end":518.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.8528437500001,"end":519.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.2703437499999,"end":526.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.0034687500001,"end":528.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.41659375,"end":532.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.51721875,"end":541.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.4609687500001,"end":546.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.5234687500001,"end":554.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.48471875,"end":554.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.9484687500001,"end":554.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.9653437500001,"end":554.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.9822187500001,"end":555.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.18471875,"end":556.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.46284375,"end":559.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.07846875,"end":561.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.18346875,"end":584.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.42909375,"end":586.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.72846875,"end":587.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.52159375,"end":594.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.53721875,"end":599.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":600.32534375,"end":602.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.02971875,"end":603.0590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.0590937500001,"end":616.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.0759687500001,"end":604.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.2434687500001,"end":611.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.73284375,"end":611.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.96909375,"end":612.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.47034375,"end":623.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.29659375,"end":623.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.7647187499999,"end":623.78159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":10.116,"text":"接下來我們請賴議員委員請坐巡檔蔡議員委員請坐巡檔我問你送給豬吃你搞混了謝謝我們是不是請農業部我們部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":33.546,"end":53.738,"text":"部長在講農業缺工那現在事實上包括AI的一個興起所以無人機大概也是變成一個未來農業缺工的一個利器之一所以在講農業缺工的時候當然現在我們知道從2019年就開始在推動這個無人機精準農業農噴應用的元年2019年"},{"start":61.53,"end":85.383,"text":"那這個農噴也開始就有人在使用這一個這一個無人機的一個噴藥那這個無人機的噴藥勒事實上也是有一些狀況這個狀況就是說如果無人機勒去噴到旁邊的人還是去噴到人那他有怎樣的"},{"start":87.599,"end":97.285,"text":"怎樣的一些規範嗎就是說你們對於無人機的在使用的這個規範無人機如果去噴在街邊人的產因為他沒像人在排排農藥嘛對不對阿你現在無人機去噴的時候阿去噴在街邊人的產"},{"start":108.018,"end":136.919,"text":"我們分兩個部分第一個部分就是說我們的無人機去噴到別人的船那有沒有負他的賠償責任這個現在要舉證的一個問題啦所以我們都因為通常無人機在飛如果隔壁田人在的話通常不會發生這種東西都是黑飛的啦都是一些黑飛的部分都要靠後段的這些去查證那如果查證屬實的時候第一個他違反了相關的規定他必須取得相關的證照才能飛而且飛的時候必須把他的航線上傳"},{"start":137.879,"end":164.888,"text":"我們可以用這個方式去處罰他但是對於他誤噴的這個部分因為現在舉證的問題會比較困擾舉證問題啦這個當然困難回到下一頁所以無人機你們目前都是噴藥他是需要證件雙證照然後你們是規定說一定要具有法人資格那法人資格的話"},{"start":166.689,"end":182.83,"text":"就很多農民嘛,他們是購買這個農用的無人機,然後他是自然人所以他就是沒有辦法去取得這樣的這樣接案的一個機會所以你們認為這個法人資格是必要性的嗎?還是說這個是可以作為一個檢討的?"},{"start":184.346,"end":205.893,"text":"沒有,這一種法人的部分其實我們當初考量的是萬一有什麼問題的時候保險的部分然後也是一個過渡就是說我們希望在一開始的時候有一個法人能夠讓有飛手的有無人機的話能夠加入他只是一個加入的動作就可以了這樣未來在追蹤在管理會比較單純的不是由他自然能去處理"},{"start":206.733,"end":209.174,"text":"那這樣的一個法人比方說我是合作社我合作社可以嗎?"},{"start":221.694,"end":245.134,"text":"我用合作社來申請然後合作社裡面的飛手只要他具有雙證照他就可以使用這個我們會重新充滿的檢討因為我們現在政策就是要推一鄉鎮的一個農事服務業那農事服務業有一個重要的就是無人機的噴藥的部分所以這個部分我們會配到的去重新調整我們的遊戲規則"},{"start":246.195,"end":261.167,"text":"好那如果有要調整的時候是不是還跟我們辦公室對我們一定會去救教育委員說明一下齁好那在下一頁齁那我們再回到今天的主題是在講這個農業移工齁這一個缺工缺工的狀況"},{"start":262.208,"end":284.358,"text":"那事實上農業是很特殊啦因為農業事實上部長你已經很清楚了農業的缺工他是屬於季節性的缺工所以他變得說你除了是透過外展或者其他的媒合的一個平台你不然你在農業上你真正需要移工"},{"start":286.014,"end":307.508,"text":"真的符合的農業的品項不多可能在畜牧業或可能是蘭花他們是全年到當都有空花 農業的話他就是季節性他就大開的時候需要 他也燒開的時候就不需要移工 所以對他來說這個移工是一個額外的成本"},{"start":308.028,"end":328.28,"text":"所以他們一定每個人大家都會將本求利所以又變成說我去找合法的移工我身分太高那我當然大家都要找黑工去找這些逃逸的然後就變成說他在勞力的缺口上他需要的反而是類似這樣的逃逸外勞這個很矛盾阿"},{"start":329.682,"end":345.763,"text":"市長,您都沒有想過這個問題嗎?委員報告,就是的確現在那種短時間季節性的缺工才是一個比較大的一個核心的問題所以我們在做那個移工外展的服務的時候假期都只有不能跨區,現在可以跨區"},{"start":346.704,"end":347.024,"text":"議員：蔡易餘議員：蔡易餘"},{"start":370.918,"end":397.255,"text":"還是比較還是比較集中型的產業就是說他的工作是比較他去用外展對農糧的應該也有啊農糧的相對的跟其他當然畜牧業畜牧還是比較多啦變成說集中我剛剛講的季節訓缺工的再用外展的他用這樣媒合的相對還是很困難所以部長我具體建議啦你們思考看看啦"},{"start":397.975,"end":425.453,"text":"就是說以農業來說齁 農業可不可以因為他的特殊性 然後我們讓外勞是可以兼職的目前外勞是不是只能做一份工作不管是哪一種外勞 可能是工廠的或者是勞動契約 透過勞動契約去限制對啊所以我們如果針對農業 你可以同意讓外勞他是兼職"},{"start":427.247,"end":447.301,"text":"然後就是在做農業你的問題都解決了捏部長你懂我的意思嗎?比方說我是在做家庭照顧的外勞那如果我在農業缺工的這段時間類似外財給他們去登記給他們兼職不要說他就去討食慷慨然後就被抓到就要被送回去"},{"start":452.242,"end":465.574,"text":"你只要有外勞可以兼職可以讓他工作之餘可以去選擇做什麼工作啊就當農業這一項我們不要把它開放到其他的工業那裡因為農業他就是一個很特別的啊"},{"start":466.75,"end":488.952,"text":"阿你叫他兼職勒 那個律師都沒必要啦 他就乖乖阿 乖乖阿 要照顧 要做長照阿 還是要照顧的 他就乖乖阿 阿不然他阿 時間最長的出來的 讓他去兼職 讓他去去產林去倒烤炒 去產林去烤粿阿 這樣有什麼不對"},{"start":492.841,"end":514.862,"text":"我覺得你這個想法的確可以解決非常多的問題但是這牽連到勞動法規的一個限制我意思是說我們農業的特殊性要拿出來講就是說我們農業為什麼未老是沒有辦法解目前的外產或者是我們現在你開放移工可是這些移工他賣掉他都會變成他都會逃走"},{"start":515.99,"end":516.911,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":529.465,"end":530.486,"text":"主秘來稍微講一下就好"},{"start":557.884,"end":561.411,"text":"主席再給我30秒就好我剛剛講的都有聽到嘛"},{"start":563.923,"end":589.012,"text":"謝謝委員的指教這個部分在就業服務法裡面目前針對這種攔領的移工我們是考慮到說他有生活管理的責任的問題所以目前是一個移工一個雇主那這個部分如果要放寬讓他可以兼職的話就會衍生他在兼職的過程當中會有他的生活管理包括職災的發生或是逃逸的責任的歸屬這個都是細部問題啊對所以那個部分可能還要做一些研討這個問題就是拿出來檢討就好了啊就是說"},{"start":590.132,"end":613.72,"text":"做登記,類似外展的一個登記,登記完後他在兼職工作的時候責任由第二個僱主來負擔。這個部分可能還在需要演繹,包括我們的...沒關係,我是覺得你要演繹這個啦。你第一你一定要改觀,不要讓外流都是討厭的,都是在討厭外流,這第一你一定要改觀。第二你一定要改觀農業缺工的問題。農業這種季節先缺工這沒辦法。"},{"start":617.574,"end":617.594,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154362","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154362","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726cac1599ec1f250a0221a3f23b3ad13ea2e70b5822ad681b89796e9676d7a8fdab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:59:05 - 11:05:28","影片長度":"00:06:23","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:59:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:05:28+08:00","duration":383,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":683,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時59分）謝謝主席，有請部長跟畜牧司司長。"],["主席：我們請以上兩位，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，我延續剛剛賴瑞隆委員所提，111年到112年蛋的問題，黃國昌委員是用日本規格的方式來算臺灣規格方式的計算錯誤，顯然這600萬顆我們已經找到了真正的原因。因為在111年到112年當初的整個氛圍裡頭，我們是真的缺蛋，農業部有抑制整體的，不管是豬還是我們的豬肉或是我們的蛋，如果有缺，你們就有主動去平穩物價的功能，在這裡我要特別提到，剛才楊瓊瓔主席有問到，蛋生產過剩的時候可以拿去養豬嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在是沒有這樣的一個做法，之前112年那個是報廢蛋，我們去做成堆肥啦。"],["賴委員惠員：對，如果你要做成蛋粉，這個蛋粉的成本是非常高的嘛，是不是這樣子？"],["陳部長駿季：對，那個……"],["賴委員惠員：司長，是不是這樣子呢？"],["江代理司長文全：報告委員，沒錯，因為蛋粉的成本大概會遠高於蛋的價值好幾倍。"],["賴委員惠員：好，我想在111年到112年採買雞蛋的時候有行政上的瑕疵，在畜產會方面，我們很多委員都講得非常清楚了。因為本席來自於農業選區，所有農業的問題對我來講是非常非常重要，我們專案進口蛋的起因就是因為缺蛋嘛，可是在生產過剩的時候，我們的老母雞也不見得會全面淘汰，也就是說，產銷失衡調節沒有辦法有一個一致的章節的時候，缺蛋、剩蛋就會成為一個惡性循環。在這裡我要特別跟我們部長做一個建議，包括雞舍的升級、老母雞的淘汰以及消費量的降低，這些都應該在我們的檢討範圍內，所以我覺得我們必須要有一套比較完整的策略。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員惠員：接著我要跟你講到的是飼料的問題，我們知道所有禽畜所吃的飼料有90%，甚至遠超過90%是來自於玉米跟黃豆，這些我們都是仰賴進口，萬一因為禽流感而整個封港的時候，像發生這樣狀況的時候，我們有沒有什麼替代的方式呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想第一個有關飼料的部分，沒有錯，我們是從國外進口，但是我們現在是用調降關稅的方式去處理，我們也希望調降的關稅能夠反應給農民，這是一件事情。","第二件事情就是說，我們目前這些玉米飼料如果沒有的話，我們還有其他一些用米的方式，像雞的部分，可以用殘米的部分去做飼料的處理。"],["賴委員惠員：我跟你說，部長，你用碎米、用公糧，這些價格都太高了，量也少。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員惠員：顯然這個方式應該是第二順位的方式，有沒有第一順位、積極的方式呢？","還有，本席在這裡還要跟你探討的是農業相關業務單位分工問題，你看在畜牧司的部分，它的員額編制40人，工作是負責所有畜牧政策規劃及推動，在權責劃分上是有責無權；但是你看畜產會，畜產會有90%是靠農業部來補助，員額編制700人，結果是有權無責，其實它的權力很大喔，它負責的是經費補助產業、產銷調節、穩定市場供需；再來看你的畜產研究所，人員編制377人，事實上是負責國內畜禽產業的問題研究。其實這些單位你應該要有所調整，我剛才還跟鍾佳濱委員說，我們看到了你對農業的專業、精闢的掌握，這個是非常重要的，在這一個階段裡頭，有沒有辦法讓畜牧業務回歸到公務體系，這樣你才好督導、好指揮，然後可以提出這樣的效能，這是本席長期觀察到臺灣整體畜牧的一個問題，所以部長，你覺得呢？"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員這樣的建議，其實這個建議，我們在組織改造的過程中也被討論，但是因為牽涉到總員額法，而且以三級機關的單位來講，已經滿額了，現在沒有辦法直接把畜產會納入公務體系，但是一個非常重要的就是，我會去強化整個畜產會的管理系統，我覺得它的管理系統有非常非常大的空間要去重新建構，如果管理體制做得好的話，跟畜牧司的互動就比較能有分工責任的角色，這個我們正積極在做。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝部長，你已經看到我們整個畜牧產業的一個問題，所以我希望你能有一個積極的作為。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員惠員：我是獸醫師，所以我講的應該還有一些參考的價值。"],["陳部長駿季：對，絕對有。謝謝您。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員，剛剛本席所質詢的是說，便宜到要再去送給豬吃，這是本席的發言。謝謝。","接下來請蔡易餘委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.72221875,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.822218750000001,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.72909375,"end":15.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.15096875,"end":49.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.59284375,"end":58.485968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.65471875,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.67034375,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.12096875,"end":72.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.91409375,"end":76.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.74846875,"end":88.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.69659375,"end":87.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.62471875,"end":95.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.30784375,"end":91.40909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.38346875,"end":93.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.36221875000001,"end":94.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.39596875000001,"end":94.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.41284375000001,"end":94.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.42971875,"end":95.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.23534375000001,"end":97.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.28596875000001,"end":96.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.55159375000001,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.24284375,"end":111.42284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.70971875000001,"end":186.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.19659375,"end":156.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.86221875,"end":162.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.26346875000002,"end":199.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.64096875,"end":217.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.95471875,"end":227.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.16846875000002,"end":248.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.68284375000002,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.04971875,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.06659375,"end":231.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.01971875,"end":234.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.54284375,"end":234.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.93721875000003,"end":261.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.13346875,"end":263.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.61846875000003,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.20409375,"end":270.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.53721875,"end":283.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.12159375000005,"end":293.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.07784375,"end":332.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.02534375000005,"end":337.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.12596875,"end":357.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.39346875,"end":353.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.89909375,"end":365.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.64471875000004,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.96909375,"end":369.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.28971875,"end":376.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.80409375000005,"end":372.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.28034375000004,"end":375.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.05221875,"end":378.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.97596875000005,"end":380.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.57909375,"end":383.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.62534375,"end":383.43096875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.08,"end":0.62,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15.754,"end":29.791,"text":"我延續就是剛剛賴瑞隆委員對於就是說在111年到112年這個蛋的一個問題當然就是說黃國昌委員他是用日本的一個規格的方式"},{"start":30.472,"end":30.612,"text":"主席賴慎"},{"start":49.599,"end":76.63,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":79.973,"end":93.873,"text":"現在是沒有這樣的一個做法那之前112年那個是報廢蛋我們再去做成飼料做成堆肥啦對所以說你要做成蛋粉嘛這個蛋粉的成本是非常高的嘛是不是這樣子那個市長"},{"start":96.314,"end":111.02,"text":"是不是這樣子呢?報告也沒錯,因為蛋粉的成本大概會遠高於蛋的價值好幾倍。好,那我想就是說在整個就是111年到112年的這個採滿這個蛋的時候有行政上的一個瑕疵"},{"start":111.86,"end":137.748,"text":"但是這個續產會上面就是說我們當然就是說很多委員都講得非常清楚了可是我在這裡因為本席來自於一個農業的選區所以農業的問題對我來講非常非常的一個重要所以專案進口的一個蛋起因就是因為缺蛋可是在生產過剩的時候我們的老母雞就是也不見得全面的一個淘汰那就是說這個產銷"},{"start":139.608,"end":167.405,"text":"施衡、調解沒有辦法有一個一致的章節的時候缺氮、聖氮成為一個惡性的一個循環在這裡我要特別跟我們的部長就是說做一個建議啦光是就是雞舍的一個升級老母雞的一個淘汰還是消費量的一個降低這些元素其實都是在我們的檢討範圍裡頭所以我覺得這個是我們必須要有一套比較完整的一個策略"},{"start":168.866,"end":185.655,"text":"接著我要跟你講到了是一個飼料的一個問題我們知道就是說所有的群序所有他們吃的90%甚至也超過以90%就是來自於薏米還有就是那個薏米跟那個黃豆"},{"start":186.135,"end":199.923,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":200.738,"end":226.719,"text":"我想第一個部分就是飼料我們沒有錯就是我們從國外進口但是我們現在是用條件關稅的方式去處理那我們也希望說條件關稅能夠反映到反映給農民這是一件事情那第二件事情就是說我們現在目前的這些玉米飼料如果沒有的話我們還有一些其他的一些用米的方式像雞的部分也可以用產米的部分去做一個飼料的處理"},{"start":227.199,"end":247.345,"text":"我跟您說部長你用稅米你用公糧這些其實價格都太高了量也少顯然這一個方式還應該是第二順位的方式有沒有第一順位積極的一個方式呢還有本席在這裡還有跟你在探討一個農業相關就是相關的一個業務各"},{"start":249.105,"end":250.506,"text":"續產會90%是靠農業部來補助的7百人"},{"start":271.284,"end":293.339,"text":"有權無責,他其實權力很大,他負責就是經費補助的一個產業,然後產銷的一個調節,穩定市場的一個供需。那你的那個續產研究所,347個人,那事實上在負責國內的一個那個敘述的一個產業的一個問題的研究。"},{"start":294.159,"end":309.492,"text":"那其實在這裡這些單位你應該要調整我剛才還跟中加兵委員講我說我們看到了你對農業的一個專業的一個精闢的掌握這個是非常重要的"},{"start":309.972,"end":332.586,"text":"那在這個階段裡頭有沒有辦法就是說讓畜牧業務回歸到公務體系然後你好督導你好指揮然後可以提出這樣的一個效能這個是本期在長期就是觀察到就是我們整體的一個畜牧的一個問題就整體台灣的一個畜牧的問題所以部長你覺得呢"},{"start":333.827,"end":357.425,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這樣的一個建議其實這個建議我們在我們組織改造的過程中也被討論但是因為牽涉到總原額法還有他的機關的三級機關的單位來講已經滿額了但是現在沒有辦法直接把續展會納入公務體系但是一個非常重要的就是我會去強調強化整個續展會的管理系統我覺得他的管理系統有非常非常大的"},{"start":357.705,"end":383.404,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"}]}},{"id":"154360","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154360","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c5eebceaf879f72c04b539dbd63c1cc91e70b5822ad681b890053f05795850e525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:45:16 - 10:59:18","影片長度":"00:14:02","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:45:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:59:18+08:00","duration":842,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":397,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時45分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：針對駐美大使在他住的地方採買的事情，引發了社會非常多的討論，部長在今天詢答的過程也做了很多的表示，但我要講一個範圍比較大，而不是只有這個個案的事情，因為我去函的時候，你們的確有回函，但編密件，雖然我對於這個事情為什麼要編密件，老實說我從法律的角度百思不得其解，但我尊重外交部，你們編密件，我就把它全部遮起來，內容我有看，但你們編密件了以後，給我的訊號是細節不能公開、內容不能討論，要不然會有洩密的問題嘛！你們編密件的基礎應該是行政院的文書處理手冊第五十一條「各機關就主管業務核定一般公務機密文書，應依法律或法律具體明確授權之法規命令為之。」你們這次編密件的法律或者是法律授權的法規命令是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：是，我是不是請同仁來說明一下？"],["李處長佩華：報告委員，因為我們各個外館的經費明細是放在我們的機密預算的內容去表達，那這樣子的表達方式其實每年都有經過大院審議同意通過，所以我們送給委員的資料是依照相關規定……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我們還是回到法規來講，因為你一直跟我講相關規定，所以我幫你們把行政院文書處理手冊第五十一條列出來了，是我引的條次錯了嗎？還是你用其他條文的規定？臺灣是法治國家，這種事情要說清楚、講明白。"],["林部長佳龍：他是說總預算在提出的時候有列在機密預算。"],["黃委員國昌：來、來、來，請部長看一下第五十一條「應依法律或法律具體明確授權之法規命令為之。」那我現在就請教你，你的法律或法律授權的法規命令基礎是什麼？這是一個很基本的問題啊！我們號稱、我們希望臺灣是一個民主法治的國家，我們跟老共不一樣，老共是人治、獨裁政體，上面的人說了就算，臺灣就不是嘛！那請問法規的依據是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我想經過大院審過的預算放在機密預算，它本身也具有法律的效力。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦！你說列為機密預算，所以把它露出來有法律的效力，沒有關係，你做這樣子的說明，法律上面站得住腳、站不住腳，大家可以進一步討論。你們說這些資訊有機敏性，恐遭中共掌握我國外館的資源配置，我國外館大使的宿舍沙發花多少錢，我們擔心中共掌握，所以會發生什麼事情？我們咖啡機花多少錢，擔心中共掌握，所以會發生什麼事情？會擔心我們的大使咖啡喝太好，然後臺灣的外交會做得太好？因為這個基本上的邏輯跟道理要跟一般的民眾講清楚，不然大家沒辦法理解。請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：請我們同仁說明一下。"],["李處長佩華：報告委員，雖然我們提供的資料是比較個案零星，但是這涉及到整體的資源配置，今天如果我將這些零星的資料用公開方式給委員，我後續的資料如果把它列為密件的話，委員一定會質疑為什麼前面是公開，所以我在處理的過程當中一定要有一個一致性，委員如果需要資料，我們絕對可以提供，但是希望還是遵從依照相關規定辦理，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我才一直問你，相關規定是什麼啊？"],["李處長佩華：謝謝委員，剛剛部長其實……"],["黃委員國昌：來、來、來，剛剛你一直在講相關規定嘛！我就具體請教你相關規定是什麼啊？"],["李處長佩華：是，謝謝委員，剛剛部長講的是只要大院這邊審議同意的話，其實它的效力是形同法律。"],["黃委員國昌：好，如果今天我把具體的數字講出去，有沒有洩密罪的問題？"],["林部長佳龍：具體的數目、項目……"],["黃委員國昌：譬如我今天講說沙發花了多少錢，我把它講出去有洩密的問題嗎？有還是沒有？"],["李處長佩華：我尊重委員的決定，謝謝。我們用……"],["黃委員國昌：這不是你尊重我的決定啦！臺灣是一個法治國家嘛！"],["李處長佩華：是，謝謝委員，因為我們既然……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們依照的法律到底是什麼？然後你今天跟我說你尊重我的決定，我具體的請教，站在外交部的立場，我把一套沙發花了多少錢講出去，有沒有洩密罪的問題？有還是沒有？"],["李處長佩華：我們用密件處理，希望委員依照相關規定辦理，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：是啦！所以到目前為止，我都尊重你們的密件嘛！我請教你密件的法律基礎是什麼？問到現在你還是講不出來啊！"],["李處長佩華：剛剛……"],["黃委員國昌：好，來……"],["林部長佳龍：預算案具有法律的效力，不過不要緊，委員，我想是這樣，因為分層授權啦！他用密是說我們原始的預算資料如果整個出去、公布，那未來所有比照辦理，只是裡面單項數字，因為有……當然是可以做一些報告，我也做額外解釋了。"],["黃委員國昌：編列密件的標準，臺灣作為一個法治國家，要不要有一個客觀的法律標準？應該要有嘛！部長，你應該可以同意嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！好，來看一下，去年外交部單位決算書，這個是我上網看到的公開資料，2023年12月5號，電匯預付美國購置新任俞大使、館長職務宿舍家具及公務手機所需費用7,697美金。奇怪，這不是機密嗎？怎麼會在決算報告裡面寫得這麼清楚？在決算報告寫成這樣，然後告訴立委索資說這是機密，這個會不會洩漏我國在大使的資源配置啊？"],["李處長佩華：不會……"],["林部長佳龍：他說不會。"],["李處長佩華：報告委員，因為我們在決算書上面只會去揭露預付款的項目，這是屬於零星採購，是看不出來整個外館的配置……"],["黃委員國昌：但是你讓大家知道最少花了7,600嘛！"],["李處長佩華：謝謝委員指教，但是我們之所以解釋提供委員的資料會涉及到密件，是因為會看得出來說整體資源的配置，我們希望是依照相關規定辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：我再說一次啦！"],["李處長佩華：這個零星採購是看不出來的……"],["黃委員國昌：零星採購看不出來，一個沙發多少錢看得出來、看不出來？"],["李處長佩華：我們是儘量公開就公開，但是如果會涉及到、危及到相關資源配置的整體項目時，我們一定要……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你今天的論點是說一套沙發多少錢會危及到整體資源的配置？"],["李處長佩華：不是，對不起，委員，不是這樣解釋，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你不就是這樣說嗎？"],["李處長佩華：沒有，這是屬於零星購置，但是我提供給委員資料涉及到全貌……"],["黃委員國昌：所以買沙發不是零星購置？"],["李處長佩華：沒有，我是說預付款上面……"],["黃委員國昌：買咖啡機是不是零星購置？買手機是不是零星購置？"],["李處長佩華：謝謝委員指教，因為在預付款上面只有部分項目，我們提供給委員的項目是比較有整體性的，會看出來全貌，所以我們希望能夠依相關規定……"],["黃委員國昌：我還是問你，能夠咖啡機一臺多少錢會不會揭露整體配置？會嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：他說不會，我想應該也不會，因為媒體報導，我們就澄清了……"],["黃委員國昌：所以咖啡機一臺多少錢是可以講的嘛！是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：是啊！因為媒體有做報導，我們也要澄清。"],["黃委員國昌：沙發一套多少錢是可以講的嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：他講單項……因為只要不涉及整體預算結構、我們整個外館預算的配置……"],["黃委員國昌：所以既然剛剛部長講了嘛……"],["林部長佳龍：可是列為密並沒有說我們對單項不能夠討論，還是可以。"],["黃委員國昌：咖啡機多少可以講、沙發多少錢可以講，這個是剛剛部長說的內容，我應該沒有誤會錯吧！"],["李處長佩華：謝謝委員，但是如果委員因為各項一直在詢問的時候，會涉及到整體的資源就看得出來，這樣子我們就要去審慎考慮。因為預付款這個項目看不出來單項各多少錢，它只是一個總數而已，所以我們是這樣子……"],["黃委員國昌：我再說一次，國家機密有國家機密保護法，一般公務機密有一般公務機的法律或法規命令，臺灣是一個法治國家，什麼是密、什麼不是密，這應該要有法律明確的標準，絕對不應該是行政單位個別恣意的決定，這樣的原則部長可以同意吧？"],["林部長佳龍：原則是可以啦！但是因為給委員的資料是很完整的時候，那個結構……它用個密其實並不是說我們不能夠討論、委員會不知道，還是可以知道，可是我覺得我們當然……"],["黃委員國昌：但是我們不能公開討論，因為公開討論就洩密啦！"],["林部長佳龍：我是覺得那個結構、那個配置，因為給委員的是只給單向嘛！但是我們現在討論的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我單向可以討論嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：可以，因為有些錯誤的報導，我們當然要澄清，不然會造成傷害啊！這個單向我是覺得解釋上是可以啦！"],["黃委員國昌：好，現在按你們內部報帳的規則，有沒有任何規定一套沙發最高金額多少錢？"],["林部長佳龍：因為各地的物價，還有一些……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我們就以美國來講，一套沙發最高的價格，你們有沒有規定？因為你們剛剛一直跟大家講，合乎規定，所以報銷嘛！合乎規定報銷、合法的，我們一定都尊重，合不合理、規定有沒有需要修改，可以再討論！但我現在問題來了，依照你們目前的規定，一套沙發有沒有設上限？我講的是規定，現在沒有牽涉到個案喔！一套沙發以在美國來講，在D.C.來講，我們採購上限的金額，按照目前外交部的規定是多少錢？還是這也是外交秘密不能說？"],["林部長佳龍：目前沒有規定啦！"],["黃委員國昌：所以沒有上限？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有規定上限。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣合理嗎？部長，你覺得？"],["林部長佳龍：每個個案都要去討論嘛！因為當地的物價……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我現在沒有在跟你討論個案，我現在在跟你討論規定嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，其實……"],["黃委員國昌：採購的金額如果沒有上限的話，那就是不管買多少錢，全部都合法，因為沒有上限啊！"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，要去申報，有一個核可的過程。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，申報核可就要按照規則嘛！所以我才問你規則有沒有上限嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：它不是一條線死的，它一定是衡量各種情況、各國的物價，然後我們的會計……"],["主席：謝謝，時間的關係，你們把事情複雜化了，你用的公開預算、你用的科目是哪一個科目，你把它編在密件嗎？機密嗎？這是公開的預算吧？"],["李處長佩華：報告委員，我們駐外館處的總數是編在公開預算，但是各個……"],["主席：對啊！你是編在公開預算啊！那你現在是胡說八道。"],["李處長佩華：對不起，委員，因為涉及到各個單位的……"],["主席：沒關係，你們把它釐清楚，本來一個很簡單的事情，大家在質疑，不管是朝野的委員，大家都希望把它釐清楚，如果會造成傷害，我們就要把它講清楚。","不好意思，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：我理解，我現在就是只拜託部長一件事情，我們駐外人員需要的資源，在第一線打仗，我們一定支持啦！"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：公務的支出，我們一定支持啦！但是花這個數額去買沙發，必要性在哪裡？那不是在辦公室，那是在他住的地方，大家才會問嘛！所以我現在也不跟你講個案，我跟你講規定，外交部可不可以告訴所有的委員，我們在外館採購各項物品，我們所依循的規定是什麼？還是有各項變數？就像以前我們要出國開會，去哪裡、一天報多少錢、什麼可以報、什麼不可以報、項目是多少，全部都有規定啊！但我今天赫然發現，原來買外館的東西，我現在在講的不是什麼機密的公務的東西，我現在在講的是咖啡機啊！是沙發啊！是床啊！是床頭櫃啊！這些東西可以沒有標準，愛怎麼買就怎麼買嗎？這是我的問題啊！"],["主席：好……"],["林部長佳龍：1萬元以上要報到我們部裡面來核可。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：這個程序我們會檢討。"],["主席：時間的關係……"],["林部長佳龍：避免有一些讓外面覺得……"],["黃委員國昌：相關的程序跟標準，會後可不可以提供給所有的委員？程序跟標準，我沒有要個案喔！程序跟標準就好了。"],["林部長佳龍：我們有支出的相關規定，如果這個部分因為已經有大家的寶貴意見，我們會納入，看怎麼樣能夠讓它有個更明確的規範。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以你的程序跟規範是不是可以提供給大家？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：可以喔？好。"],["主席：時間的關係，好，謝謝。可能也順便提供一下，因為不知道你用的是哪一個科目，可是提供支用的情形，這個部分請你們可以提供，因為它是編在公開的預算，支用情形可以提供給本委員會。","現在我們開始處理臨時提案，一共有2案，請議事人員宣讀第1案。","一、","案由：","茲因我國外交部駐美代表俞大，經吹哨者爆料及媒體報導，俞代表上任後對於公款使用有浮濫之嫌，及私人物品之採購交代不清。並有陳情指出其太太不當使用外館公務車、更有對外交基層人員使喚、霸凌情事，實有調查釐清之必要。請外交部盡速安排召回俞大代表，對此次事件與相關公費支用情形，品項、明細，駐外人員是否遭不當對待與使喚等事做出調查報告並於兩周內回覆。","提案人：徐巧芯　　黃　仁　　馬文君　　陳永康","日期：113年6月27日"],["主席：請問在場委員，有沒有什麼其他意見表達？徐巧芯委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：我是提案人之一，我想是這樣子的。我看到俞大㵢代表在美國有開記者會，也做了很多澄清，可是他在美國所做的澄清，看起來臺灣這邊還是有很多質疑。所以我覺得應該給他一個機會回來臺灣把整件事情說清楚，才能夠讓民眾瞭解真相是什麼。就像剛才我在質詢部長時，發現媒體報導跟實際情況是有出入的。站在保護外交人員的立場，我希望他親自來說明後，可以把誤會好好的、一個一個逐項解開，這樣一來，外界就不會再對駐美代表有任何誤會了。但我要特別提醒一件事，就被列為密件這部分，其實有很多費用在決算書就可以看到了，例如電視機一臺、藍芽一臺、音響一臺，所需經費1,115.93美金，折合臺幣三萬六千多的支出傳票，在現行決算書裡就有，但立法委員收到的卻是密件，這點我覺得令人質疑。最好的辦法就是請俞大㵢大使來國會做說明，這樣可以解釋清楚媒體對他可能是不公平的報導、可能讓他覺得很委屈，甚至他太太是否涉及霸凌，或是請公務人員陪他去買私人用品等等問題，我覺得這是最好的方式。以上。"],["主席：其他委員？請王定宇召委。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝召委。基本上我想我們有共識，就是這件事情要趕快釐清，所以我個人也建議外交部在法律、外交禮節、禮儀以及私德三件事情上不要拖，儘速釐清。但召回大使是大事！因此，就國內傳聞部分，我們應該讓外交部儘速調查清楚、釐清，如果說有爭議就把大使叫回來問，一個爭議就把大使叫回來問，這會影響外交事務，畢竟駐地在美國。所以我建議這兩個提案是不是可以整合一下？我們要求外交部儘速，我說的儘速是希望在今天以前，把相關事情釐清。坦白講，政府很多單位每次有人事變動時就黑函滿天飛，裡面涉及個人感受的就個別去感受，但在法律上就必須釐得非常清楚。所以外交部責無旁貸，不要再讓這些scandal、gossip去影響真正的外交工作，也不能因為這樣就把大使叫回來。所以我是不是跟我們同仁討論一下？這兩個提案其實意義、方向一樣，但真的不適合，尤其駐美是這麼重要的駐處，而且是兩週內叫他回來。我們是不是可以協調一下？"],["徐委員巧芯：第二次發言。"],["主席：徐委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們可以看到，第一，俞大㵢大使在美國是有相關發言，所以他是有話想講的。如果他沒有話想說的話，我們今天就不會提這個臨時提案。至於他到底有沒有意願？或許他是想要回來臺灣做說明的，這一點我們不知道，可以去問問看。第二，外交部所做的調查，如果給我們的都是像目前這樣的密件，那麼就算是調查出來了，能夠解決人民的疑慮嗎？裡面每一個東西都不能講，咖啡機多少錢，床墊多少錢，都被列為密件。在這樣的情況裡，就算做了調查又如何？能夠向大眾說明、解決該案的爭議嗎？我覺得兩案共同並行討論沒問題，但整體來說，不能用密件的方式來處理！應該要完全公開透明的方式，以昭公信，讓大家知道雙方的說法。尤其我們也有相關問題請俞大㵢大使做書面回復。","我可以同意剛剛王定宇召委所說，請他兩個禮拜內回來確實茲事體大，也擔心會影響他的工作與流程。但既然他都開記者會了，而我們在臺灣也有很多問題想要問他，是否能夠以書面質詢的方式，請他從美國用書面答復的方式回函，讓我們能公開給所有民眾看？如果採書面質詢方式，我同意他不用回到臺灣，這部分我可以在臨時提案做修改；但如果只是做了調查，而到時候來的全部都是密件，不好意思，我覺得這個東西跟現行狀況沒有兩樣，最後又會不了了之。"],["主席：請林楚茵委員。"],["林委員楚茵：針對這個提案，我同意王定宇委員的意見。首先，俞大㵢在美國開了記者會，我想這是非常好的狀況，畢竟這是個人各自的解讀，有人認為他開記者會就表示有話想說；但如果沒有開記者會，是不是又要說他在美國連回應都沒有？所以要請他回來臺灣。至於他是不是要回來，不應該從他有沒有想說的話與有沒有召開記者會去認定，而是應該以國家現行的狀況去看，華府、駐美是這麼重要的位置，怎能想要就把他找回來？第二，有關密件部分，我必須說我也有去申請資料，我也看到了密件。每一位委員其實都可以申請資料，如果外交部今天決定這是密件，那麼國防及外交委員會本來就可以開秘密會議。","所以是不是一定要俞大㵢回來？我還是保持比較客觀的態度，畢竟是這麼重要的一個位置，要在兩個禮拜內回來？我想大家可能要多做思考。尤其面對現在的國際局勢，駐美代表是非常重要的。","至於需不需要書面詢答或什麼的，我認為最重要的還是外交部必須要給報告。那麼到底密或不密這點，依據機密的設定，行政機關的主官本來就可以決定，這部分就看外交部等一下怎麼決定。但最重要的是，外交部必須調查清楚，不論是我剛剛在質詢講的經費使用或外館人員的管理，這兩個部分都必須講清楚！"],["主席：徐委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：第三次發言。實際上這次外交部給我們的密件，我這邊收到兩份，在此先謝謝外交部。其實你們提供的速度算是快的，而且項目是清楚的，這兩點要給予肯定。可是就密件來說，你們並沒有提供法源依據，這點跟行政院文書處理的規定……其實剛剛黃國昌有講到，這於法不合！一般來說，像我們收到其他的機密文件底下會附上法源依據來自哪裡，這是修法後一定要附上的，但你們沒有附上。沒有關係，我當然也同意民進黨團提議的，外交部要儘速調查是否符合相關採購程序，並向社會大眾說明。既然寫到向社會大眾說明……"],["王委員定宇：徐委員，你看一下我的提案，你現在要的我有寫在上面。"],["徐委員巧芯：有啊、有啊！"],["王委員定宇：剛剛聽起來，我們兩個有共識……"],["徐委員巧芯：有、有。"],["王委員定宇：所以是不是就用我的提案來通過，趕快處理……"],["徐委員巧芯：但我這邊也有一個要求，也就是委員會這邊是不是能夠提供一些問題到美國，讓俞大㵢大使能夠做書面回復？"],["王委員定宇：我這樣建議好不好？主席，其實這兩個提案可以併到我的第二個提案，委員今天質詢所關切的議題，也請外交部列入調查範圍內；如果口頭質詢來不及問的，可以補書面，讓外交部的調查可以更臻完善。我們的目的是一樣的，既然大概有共識了，我也就不再多發言了，就儘快處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：召委，我覺得還有一個地方我跟你們是比較沒有共識的。我希望我們詢問的不只是外交部單純的調查，而是我們的問題要由俞大㵢大使來做說明，因為此事不只牽涉到預算的問題，有霸凌的問題，還有夫人是否可能也有霸凌問題。剛才在質詢過程當中，因為時間不夠，所以實際上面，他們其實是沒有說明完整的，像在這裡我所收到的相關基層的不滿，至少還有三件以上，所以我想問一下，是不是……"],["王委員定宇：主席，因為這個都重複了啦，是不是就做這個提案的處理好不好？謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，所以我們是不是可以一段──比如說，請他們在本週內提供我們希望向俞大㵢大使所詢問的問題，讓他有一個書面回復的機會，併入外交部的調查，用這樣的方式，兩案並行。"],["主席：這樣應該也可以。"],["王委員定宇：行政調查有行政調查的程序，所以本委員會提了一個臨時提案，外交部也允諾儘速調查出結果，如果說我們又要進入到由我們主動來調查，由我們來決定怎麼調查方向，我個人認為是並不合適啦……"],["主席：這個應該，剛剛提到的也不是調查啦。"],["徐委員巧芯：這不是調查，我沒有說要調查喔。"],["王委員定宇：所以我說的就是剛才我們質詢的範圍，我們請外交部審酌，把它納入他們的調查範圍內，如果委員在口頭質詢沒有問到的，其實今天還可以用書面來補上來，外交部當然就是看這些詢問的內容，涉及公務的，趕快來做處理，我覺得我們這個提案其實內容寫得算完整的，兩邊的意思都有涵蓋了。"],["主席：好，謝謝召委。因為剛剛的兩個提案，其實有一部分是不太一樣的，因為一個是針對外交部，然後另外一個可能是希望由俞大使本身可以稍微做回應跟澄清，我想這個可能是不太一致的啦，不然，我們還是就兩個提案，這個部分外交部有什麼意見嗎？我們先針對第一個提案，就是以書面的部分來……"],["徐委員巧芯：部長剛剛已經提到了，本來是……"],["主席：請俞大使回應的部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，「盡速安排召回」的部分，我剛剛已經可以同意，就是接受書面質詢的部分。"],["主席：對，因為召回有時候在時程上面……還有美國其實是一個重要的地點，然後要回來可能也不是那麼容易，就這個部分，因為如果儘速釐清，對於剛剛有很多委員其實都關切的，因為美國畢竟是一個非常重要的、對我們來說是重要的國家，又要大選了，如果因為這個事情一直攪在那裡，對我們的外交工作可能也是一個傷害。對大使夫妻本身，如果可以讓他們儘速釐清，其實我覺得可能也是一個正向的處置作為，如果就這樣，由俞大使自己來做澄清說明，我想這是最清楚的，這個部分有什麼問題嗎？就這個提案。"],["林部長佳龍：是以書面的方式？"],["徐委員巧芯：書面的方式。"],["主席：對，它也是書面。"],["林部長佳龍：就透過我們外交部嘛？"],["主席：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然是透過外交部。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們來配合辦理。"],["主席：好，這個提案我們就做文字修正，這個部分是不是請外交部做一下文字修正，在你們可以執行的範圍內，待會提供出來？","現在宣讀第2案。","二、","案由：有關媒體爆料俞大㵢大使一事，要求外交部儘速調查是否符合政府相關採購程序，並向社會大眾說明，以釐清該案爭議。","提案人：林楚茵　　沈伯洋　　王定宇　　陳冠廷"],["主席：這個案子委員有沒有要說明的部分？"],["徐委員巧芯：我這邊沒有意見。"],["王委員定宇：我都已經表達過了。"],["主席：針對第2案，外交部這邊有沒有什麼其他的意見要表達？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["主席：好，那第2案就照案通過。","請議事人員宣讀第1案文字修正的部分。"],["曾秘書郁棻：第1案之文字修正：倒數第四行修正為「請外交部盡速安排俞大㵢大使以書面方式對此次事件與相關公費支用情形，品項、明細，駐外人員是否遭不當對待與使喚等事做出調查報告，並於兩周內送交立法院外交及國防委員會。」，其餘照原提案。"],["王委員定宇：一個小問題，這樣會變成俞大㵢自己調查自己，他調查我也不要相信。我的意思是說，應該是請俞大㵢就此事做報告回復外交部，由外交部完成調查報告給我們。剛才這個文字的修改，你看一下它的內容，變成俞大㵢調查自己耶，俞大㵢完成調查報告……"],["主席：沒有啦，把那個字改掉。"],["王委員定宇：俞大㵢是被調查對象耶！"],["主席：不是，現在我們不是要調查，就是他自己本身的部分，他是在做說明、回復而已，把它分開，文字可能再……"],["王委員定宇：對，所以我建議文字多加一個受詞，俞大㵢在多少多少時間內回復外交部，由外交部完成調查報告，函復我們這邊。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個我沒有問題、沒有意見，由外交部回復，沒有意見。"],["曾秘書郁棻：現在重新宣讀修正之文字。倒數第四行開始修正為「請外交部盡速安排俞大㵢大使以書面方式，對此次事件與相關公費支用情形，品項、明細，駐外人員是否遭不當對待與使喚等事提出說明，送交外交部，請外交部調查並提出報告，於兩周內送交立法院外交及國防委員會。」其餘同原始提案。"],["主席：對於修正文字的內容，各位委員有沒有意見？（無）沒有，我們照修正案通過。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時20分）","繼續開會（11時26分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。接下來請羅智強委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":1.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.73096875,"end":3.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.029093750000001,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.78846875,"end":13.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.239093750000002,"end":18.812843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.96471875,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.715343750000002,"end":23.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.504093750000003,"end":26.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.01409375,"end":27.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.60034375,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.832218750000003,"end":32.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.970968750000004,"end":33.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.392843750000004,"end":37.088468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.37534375,"end":38.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.80971875,"end":39.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.58159375,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.53784375,"end":51.617843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.22534375,"end":53.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.65534375,"end":55.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.595968750000004,"end":57.82784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.283468750000004,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.98784375,"end":63.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.56096875,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.32409375,"end":78.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.64721875000001,"end":82.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":84.84471875,"end":85.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":85.92471875000001,"end":87.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":87.79784375,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.40096875,"end":95.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.08346875000001,"end":103.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.17096875,"end":106.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.44471875,"end":117.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.46409375,"end":120.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.71659375,"end":123.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.48846875000001,"end":125.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":126.82971875000001,"end":130.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.95596875,"end":137.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.89971875,"end":139.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.62096875,"end":142.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.49346875,"end":153.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.06596875,"end":160.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.81596875,"end":162.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":164.52846875,"end":171.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.27846875,"end":172.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.03346875,"end":173.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.36659375000002,"end":184.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.07784375,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.47409375,"end":196.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.59096875,"end":198.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.00409375,"end":202.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.65721875000003,"end":209.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.96846875,"end":214.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.79909375000003,"end":223.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.26159375,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":225.80159375000002,"end":225.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":226.13909375,"end":229.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.41284375,"end":256.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.81784375,"end":259.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.47534375000004,"end":262.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.67346875000004,"end":267.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.49971875,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.09409375,"end":276.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.38846875,"end":277.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":278.21534375000005,"end":281.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.43846875,"end":282.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.16346875,"end":286.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":286.18034375,"end":287.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":287.36159375,"end":289.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.03221875,"end":293.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":289.70721875000004,"end":291.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.22534375000004,"end":295.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.09846875,"end":299.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.08534375,"end":300.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.18659375000004,"end":300.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.28784375000004,"end":304.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.52346875,"end":306.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.05909375000005,"end":319.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.64346875,"end":323.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.23784375,"end":331.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":331.15221875000003,"end":331.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":333.91971875,"end":334.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":334.84784375000004,"end":339.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":339.55596875000003,"end":351.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.29284375000003,"end":349.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":351.63846875,"end":355.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.00534375,"end":359.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.43471875,"end":360.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.24034375,"end":362.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.16409375,"end":363.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.83909375,"end":364.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.29034375000003,"end":366.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":367.12971875000005,"end":373.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.76159375000003,"end":375.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.09034375000005,"end":387.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.13909375000003,"end":389.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.67034375000003,"end":393.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.07909375,"end":395.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.66096875000005,"end":399.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":400.30596875000003,"end":401.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.25096875,"end":402.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":402.97221875,"end":403.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":403.32659375000003,"end":403.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.33909375,"end":404.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":404.38971875000004,"end":406.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":407.02221875000004,"end":407.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.67596875000004,"end":415.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.43846875,"end":417.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.46784375000004,"end":417.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.48471875,"end":417.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.50159375000004,"end":420.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.96096875,"end":433.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":433.53284375000004,"end":434.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.56659375000004,"end":433.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.41034375000004,"end":436.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":437.53221875,"end":442.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.48971875,"end":440.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.13909375000003,"end":450.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":451.09971875,"end":455.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.99346875000003,"end":458.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.57534375,"end":459.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.08159375,"end":459.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.95909375,"end":459.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.97596875000005,"end":460.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.02659375,"end":463.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.33409375,"end":465.39284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.07659375000003,"end":464.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.39721875000004,"end":464.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.08471875000004,"end":468.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.11409375000005,"end":469.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.86471875,"end":469.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.93221875,"end":471.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.94909375000003,"end":470.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.04159375,"end":485.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":482.31846875,"end":483.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":485.03534375000004,"end":485.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":485.06909375000004,"end":488.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":488.98409375000006,"end":494.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":491.39721875000004,"end":496.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.18534375,"end":497.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":497.60721875,"end":500.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.62409375000004,"end":500.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":501.21846875000006,"end":513.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":510.75284375,"end":513.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":513.6215937500001,"end":518.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.9665937500001,"end":521.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.31659375,"end":536.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":536.62221875,"end":537.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.3603437500001,"end":539.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":539.7947187500001,"end":541.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":541.85346875,"end":543.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":543.4228437500001,"end":546.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":546.35909375,"end":556.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":556.8215937500001,"end":560.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":561.7322187500001,"end":565.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":565.98471875,"end":574.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":574.03409375,"end":576.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":577.4597187500001,"end":578.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":578.69159375,"end":583.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":583.9397187500001,"end":591.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":591.9553437500001,"end":595.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":594.7397187500001,"end":597.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":597.40596875,"end":599.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":600.0890937500001,"end":601.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":601.9622187500001,"end":602.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":603.2278437500001,"end":604.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":605.7590937500001,"end":605.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":605.77596875,"end":610.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":611.27721875,"end":618.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":618.48284375,"end":620.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":620.2378437500001,"end":622.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":622.54971875,"end":625.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":626.19471875,"end":627.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":628.28721875,"end":630.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":630.5990937500001,"end":645.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":645.2634687500001,"end":647.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":648.14909375,"end":649.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":649.6340937500001,"end":649.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":649.97159375,"end":650.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":650.07284375,"end":650.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":650.10659375,"end":650.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":650.24159375,"end":650.3428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":650.3428437499999,"end":650.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":651.0178437500001,"end":652.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":652.38471875,"end":659.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":659.0334687500001,"end":660.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":660.5522187500001,"end":662.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":661.8178437500001,"end":668.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":667.38659375,"end":683.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":672.48284375,"end":672.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":673.6640937500001,"end":674.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":675.41909375,"end":675.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":675.45284375,"end":675.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":683.60346875,"end":688.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.4890937499999,"end":695.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.20909375,"end":697.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.60971875,"end":698.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.49971875,"end":699.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.5165937500001,"end":699.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.5334687500001,"end":705.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.4734687499999,"end":724.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.9584687500001,"end":709.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.89471875,"end":713.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":724.2553437500001,"end":729.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":730.00971875,"end":736.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":736.3715937500001,"end":736.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":736.55721875,"end":738.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":738.95346875,"end":739.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":739.39221875,"end":740.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":740.4722187500001,"end":743.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":743.9653437500001,"end":745.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":746.3615937500001,"end":747.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":748.70721875,"end":749.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":750.25971875,"end":752.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":753.43221875,"end":754.5459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":754.98471875,"end":761.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":762.0890937500001,"end":764.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":765.1940937500001,"end":766.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":767.25284375,"end":768.4678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":768.94034375,"end":770.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":770.49284375,"end":774.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":775.13346875,"end":776.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":776.7703437499999,"end":778.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":778.8797187499999,"end":780.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":780.6684687500001,"end":783.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":783.9422187499999,"end":784.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":785.1909687500001,"end":786.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":787.4015937500001,"end":789.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":789.6797187500001,"end":790.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":790.97909375,"end":791.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":791.97471875,"end":793.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":793.7803437500002,"end":798.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":798.2690937500001,"end":798.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":798.35346875,"end":798.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":798.7922187500001,"end":809.3559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":799.45034375,"end":799.5515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":799.5515937500002,"end":799.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":799.6359687500001,"end":800.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":801.52596875,"end":801.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.54284375,"end":803.0615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":804.20909375,"end":805.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":808.8159687500001,"end":808.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":809.00159375,"end":811.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":812.95034375,"end":814.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":814.3003437500001,"end":814.3172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":814.3172187500002,"end":816.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":817.5065937500001,"end":820.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":820.3247187500001,"end":820.3584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":820.6115937500001,"end":827.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":826.8215937500001,"end":831.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.1672187500001,"end":841.46909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":3.018,"text":"還有系列主席石馬友秦部長秦部長"},{"start":13.263,"end":39.217,"text":"部長針對駐美大使在他住的地方採買的事情引發了社會非常多的討論部長從今天詢答的過程也做了很多的表示但我要講一個範圍比較大而不是只有這個隔岸的事情因為我去的時候去喊的時候你們的確有回函但編密件雖然"},{"start":40.618,"end":63.295,"text":"我對於這個事情為什麼要編密件我老實說我從法律的角度百思不得己見但我尊重外交部你們編密件我就把它全部遮起來內容我有看但你們編密件了以後給我的訊號是細節不能公開內容不能討論要不然會有洩密的問題嘛好那你們編密件"},{"start":64.591,"end":86.377,"text":"你們的基礎應該是行政院的文書處理手冊第51條各機關就主管業務核定一般公務機密文書因依法律或法律具體授權的法規命令為之你們這次編密件的法律或者是法律授權的法規命令是什麼是我同時來說明一下"},{"start":89.451,"end":114.733,"text":"報告委員因為我們各個外管的經費的明細是放在我們的機密預算的內容去表達那這樣子的表達方式其實每年都有經過大院審議同意通過那所以我們送給委員的資料我們是依照相關規定我們還是回到法規來講因為你一直跟我講相關規定所以我幫你們把行政院文書處理手冊第51條列出來了嗎"},{"start":117.575,"end":142.47,"text":"是我引的調製錯嗎?還是你用其他的條文的規定?台灣是法治國家這種事情要說清楚講明白啊他是說總預算在提出的時候對嘛來來來請部長看一下第51條因依法規或法律具體明確授權的法規命令為之嘛那我現在就請教你你的法律或法律授權的法規命令的基礎是什麼啊?"},{"start":145.729,"end":162.245,"text":"這是一個很基本的問題我們號稱我們希望台灣是一個民主法治的國家我們跟老共不一樣嘛老共是人質嘛是獨裁政體嘛上面的人說了就算了嘛台灣就不是嘛那請問法規的依據是什麼"},{"start":165.212,"end":182.889,"text":"我想經過大院審過的預算放列在機密預算它本身也具有法律的效率我這樣講好了啦你說列為機密預算然後所有把它露出來有法律的效率沒有關係齁你做這樣子的說明法律上面站得住腳站不住腳大家可以進一步討論齁你們說"},{"start":186.264,"end":213.754,"text":"這些資訊有機敏性恐遭中共掌握我國外館的資源配置我國外館大使的宿舍沙發花多少錢我們擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情我們咖啡機花多少錢擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情會擔心我們的大使咖啡喝太好"},{"start":214.844,"end":218.305,"text":"請部長我們同仁說明一下雖然我們提供的資料是比較個案零星但是這涉及到整體的資源的配置今天如果我將這些零星的資料"},{"start":240.569,"end":241.43,"text":"對,所以我在一直問你啊相關規定是什麼啊?"},{"start":260.72,"end":263.961,"text":"如果今天我把具體的數字講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題?"},{"start":286.135,"end":286.675,"text":"我尊重委員的決定,謝謝"},{"start":300.497,"end":318.562,"text":"這不是你尊重我的決定啊台灣是一個法治國家嘛所以你們依照我的法律到底是什麼然後你今天跟我說你尊重我的決定我具體的請教站在外交部的立場我把一套沙發花了多少錢講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題有還是沒有"},{"start":319.702,"end":330.811,"text":"我們用密件處理希望委員依照相關規定辦理是阿所以我到目前為止都尊重你們的密件阿我請教你密件的法律基礎是什麼問到現在你還是講不出來阿"},{"start":334.091,"end":337.614,"text":"編列密件的標準台灣作為一個法治國家要不要有一個客觀的法律標準應該要有嗎"},{"start":361.297,"end":389.07,"text":"部長你應該可以同意嘛是是吧好來看一下去年外交部單位決算書這個是我上網公開上面看到的資料來看一下2023年12月5號電惠預付美國預購新任余大使館長植物宿舍家具及公務手機所需費用7697美金奇怪這不是機密嗎"},{"start":390.714,"end":419.379,"text":"怎麼會在決算報告裡面寫得這麼清楚在決算報告寫成這樣然後告訴立委所知說這是機密這個會不會洩漏我國啊在大使的資源配置啊他說不會啦報委員因為我們在決算書上面只會去揭露預付款的項目這是屬於零星採購是看不出來但是你讓大家知道最少花了7600嘛"},{"start":421.408,"end":436.329,"text":"謝謝委員指教但是我們之所以解釋提供委員的資料會涉及到密件是因為會看得出來說整體的資源的配置這樣子我們希望我們是依照相關規定辦理我又說一次啦零星採購是看不出來的"},{"start":437.697,"end":465.178,"text":"林心採購看不出來一個沙發多少錢看得出來看不出來我們是盡量公開就公開但是如果會涉及到違及到相關資源的配置的整體的項目的時候我們一定要所以你今天的論理是說一套沙發多少錢會違及到整體資源的配置不是對不起委員不是這樣解釋剛剛你不就是這樣說嗎這是屬於林心購置但是我提供給委員資料所以買沙發不是林心購置"},{"start":467.426,"end":468.956,"text":"買咖啡機是不是零星購置?"},{"start":470.286,"end":496.124,"text":"買手機是不是零星購置謝謝委員指教因為在預付款上面只有部分項目那我們提供給委員的項目是比較有整體性的那會看出來全貌我還是問問題嘛咖啡機一台多少錢會不會揭露整體配置會嗎他說不會我想應該也不會所以咖啡機一台多少錢是可以講的嗎是嗎咖啡機一台多少是可以講的嗎"},{"start":497.225,"end":500.487,"text":"沙發一套多少錢是可以講的嗎所以既然剛剛部長講了嘛咖啡機多少可以講沙發多少錢可以講這個是剛剛部長說的內容我應該沒有誤會錯吧"},{"start":519.974,"end":520.194,"text":"我再說一次齁"},{"start":538.567,"end":560.294,"text":"國家機密有國家機密保護法一般公務機密有一般公務機密的法律或法規命令臺灣是一個法治國家什麼是密什麼不是密這應該要有法律明確的標準絕對不應該是行政單位個別自議的決定這樣的原則部長可以同意吧"},{"start":562.17,"end":563.912,"text":"但是我們不能公開討論因為公開討論就洩密啦"},{"start":577.803,"end":604.111,"text":"我是覺得那個結構啦就那個配置啦因為給委員的是不能我只給單項嘛那但是我們現在討論的時候所以我單項可以討論嗎可以因為現在有些錯誤的報導我們當然澄清不然會造成傷害啊這個單項我是覺得解釋上是可以的啊現在按你們內部報帳的規則啊按你們內部報帳的規則有沒有任何規定一套沙發最高金額多少錢"},{"start":605.782,"end":626.479,"text":"因為各地的物價還有一些沒有關係我們就以美國來講一套雜貨最高的價格你們有沒有規定因為你們剛剛一直跟大家講嘛合乎規定所以報銷嘛合乎規定報銷合法的我們一定都尊重合不合理規定有沒有需要修改可以再討論但我現在的問題來了"},{"start":628.32,"end":646.832,"text":"那依照你們目前的規定一套沙發有沒有設上限我講的是規定喔現在沒有切入到個案喔一套沙發以在美國來講在DC來講我們採購上限的金額按照目前外交部的規定是多少錢還是這也是外交秘密不能說"},{"start":648.186,"end":664.377,"text":"目前沒有規定啦所以沒有上線沒有規定上線這樣合理嗎?部長你覺得?每個個案都要去討論嘛因為他當地的物價沒有我現在沒有在跟你討論個案我現在在跟你討論規定嘛我跟委員報告齁採購的金額如果沒有上線的話"},{"start":665.037,"end":682.438,"text":"那就是不管買多少錢全部都合法因為沒有上限啊他有一個他要去申報跟那個他有一個合法的過程你申報合可就要按照規則嘛所以我才問你規則有沒有上限嘛那他不是一個一條線那個死的他一定是衡量各種情況"},{"start":684.146,"end":698.639,"text":"謝謝時間的關係你們把事情複雜化了你用的公開的預算你用的科目是哪一個科目你把它編在那個密件嗎機密嗎這是公開的預算吧"},{"start":699.704,"end":702.966,"text":"我理解,我現在只拜託部長一件事情"},{"start":730.084,"end":747.455,"text":"我們住外的人員需要的資源在第一線打仗我們一定支持啦公務的支出我們一定支持啦但是花這個數額去買沙發必要性在哪裡那不是在辦公室那在他住的地方"},{"start":748.732,"end":764.17,"text":"大家常常問嘛所以我現在我也不跟你講個案我跟你講規定外交部可不可以告訴所有的委員我們在外館採購各項物品我們所依循的規定是什麼"},{"start":765.451,"end":788.979,"text":"還是有各項變數就像我們以前我們要出國開會去哪裡一天報多少錢什麼可以報什麼不可以報項目是多少全部都有規定啊但我今天赫然發現原來買外館的東西我現在在講的喔不是什麼機密的公務的東西我現在在講的是咖啡機啊"},{"start":789.739,"end":795.844,"text":"是沙發啊?是床啊?是床頭櫃啊?這些東西可以沒有標準?"},{"start":795.844,"end":816.702,"text":"愛怎麼買就怎麼買嗎?這是我的問題喔?他一萬元以上要報到我們部裡面來核可,就是這個程序我們會檢討,讓他避免有一些就是外面覺得說相關的程序跟標準會後可不可以提供給所有的委員程序跟標準,我沒有要個案喔,程序跟標準就好了"},{"start":817.52,"end":829.83,"text":"我們有那個支出的相關規定嘛那如果這個部分因為已經有大家的寶貴意見我們會納入啊看怎麼樣能夠讓他有個更明確的規範所以你的程序跟規範是不是可以提供給大家那待會相關的可能也順便提供一下因為不知道你用的是哪一個科目可是"}]}},{"id":"154359","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154359","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c57adec2f0aa50b8321a3f23b3ad13ea2e70b5822ad681b895225b1035a2ba5015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:48:06 - 10:58:59","影片長度":"00:10:53","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:48:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:58:59+08:00","duration":653,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":610,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時48分）謝謝召委，請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。","各位與會人士，我們今天沒有休息，所以如果要人性管理請自行處理，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長好。我首先請教一下牡蠣的問題，這是漁業，也是食安的問題。全國的牡蠣，其實這幾年整體的數量是減少的，但是在馬祖的部分幾乎是倍增，大概是兩倍，從109年66公噸到148公噸。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，為什麼會有這樣的狀況？全臺灣整體在減少，而在馬祖卻是增加？"],["陳部長駿季：全臺灣的牡蠣大概在兩萬噸上下，過往平均大概一萬七千噸，我先講國內的部分，然後不足的地方是從國外來的，特別是以越南為主。當國內的因為氣候關係調降的時候，越南的牡蠣就會進來，可是我們發現，這1、2年來越南的牡蠣，包括從五千噸、六千噸，讓整體的產量大概多了兩千噸左右，大概有兩千兩百噸。不過，比較比較好的情況是面積雖然下降但是產值提高了……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我要講的是馬祖牡蠣的部分。"],["陳部長駿季：對，馬祖的部分應該是66到148嘛？"],["賴委員瑞隆：對。相對的就是馬祖本身的這些海域，過往他比較少種，現在他們覺得種這個也算是不錯的，現在有14家，覺得這是不錯的一個行業。所以他們在馬祖養殖了以後進到本島來賣，這個通道現在大概有建立了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我只是要特別提醒，就整個產量來說，其實馬祖平均每戶的產量是高於臺灣這邊的，我要講的是，馬祖牡蠣重金屬的檢驗，在幾個檢驗裡面，特別是鎘的部分都超過1ppm，甚至有到2.33ppm，我認為這個問題還是需要農業部跟漁業署去重視，當然這涉及到衛福部的食安問題，也涉及到海巡是不是有走私、偷渡的問題等等，我覺得以整個魚產品的安全性來說，漁業署跟農業部還是有責任，我希望在最快的時間內去找各單位溝通、釐清一下，一方面如果有走私的狀況，這還是要做一些處理，包括各種走私的狀況，甚至把它放在那邊，變成由這邊來採收；對於整個重金屬的狀況，我認為農業部應該要更有態度的去處理。"],["陳部長駿季：我想非常重要的是，它從馬祖過來，其實我們最擔心的是洗產地，所以針對馬祖種的，我們會要求它本身有產銷履歷或追溯的，現在14家裡面有已經有13家了，一旦有這個追溯系統，它的量就能夠瞭解；第二個是品質的問題，關於它品質本身、養殖條件的監控，我們會來加強。"],["賴委員瑞隆：更長遠的，我希望農業部在做的很多像是履歷的部分，履歷能夠追溯當然就更安全，它來自於臺灣，臺灣能掌控的更好，我們農漁民做得更好的，它就要有更好的價格……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果這些可能是洗產地，甚至是走私過來的，它是具有重金屬風險的、來源不清楚的，我認為它應該就要……這部分要持續推動，這樣才能夠確保整個產業，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會嚴格處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望部長跟署長在這一塊能再多花一點時間處理。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：接著回來講一下雞蛋，雞蛋這件事情其實已經很久了，從去年就一直有人在檢舉。部長，為什麼經過了一整年還有人在吵這件事情，部長你怎麼看？"],["陳部長駿季：其實從今年2月開始，許多委員是針對111年的情況，而我們雞蛋專案進口是在112年，當這些資料開始釋出時，會讓人混淆是112年還是111年的，包括很多人認為超思一下子有合約、一下子沒合約，事實上超思是在112年有合約，而111年是用買斷的方式進來，諸如此類的會造成一些困擾。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我先問一下，買斷這件事情有沒有違法？"],["陳部長駿季：整個貿易交易的過程中，用合約也可以、用到貨付款的方式也可以，這是一個非常正常的貿易行為。"],["賴委員瑞隆：過去以來，政府都有採用這兩種方式？"],["陳部長駿季：對，貨到付款的方式其實在中央畜產會已經行之有年。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我再問一下，過去有哪些也是用這樣的方式來進行？"],["陳部長駿季：豬肉也是用這樣的方式。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在哪一年的時候？"],["陳部長駿季：這3年都有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這3年都有用直接買斷的方式？"],["陳部長駿季：是，用買斷的方去處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那還有其他的例子嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我請畜牧司說明。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請直接說明。"],["江代理司長文全：報告委員，我們在畜產會的產銷調節中，只要透過所謂直接市場購入，大家都會用這個方式，這幾年大概就是豬肉跟雞蛋。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這幾年主要這兩個？"],["江代理司長文全：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我要提的是，其實2022年就開始有缺蛋的狀況，社會也不斷的有一些聲音，我看到媒體的報導，當時甚至還有立委認為中國大陸雖然有禽流感，他覺得一樣也可以進來，那時候整個社會的氣氛跟氛圍就是臺灣因為禽流感的問題導致蛋量不足，大家在搶蛋、沒有蛋的時候，一直期盼政府能夠去找蛋來，甚至很多國民黨的立委和各黨的立委都還要求增加雞蛋的來源，讓國內能夠充分供應雞蛋，所以我覺得還是要還原到當時的脈絡裡面，當時大家是期待政府有積極作為來引進這些雞蛋。剛剛部長也提到2022年、2023年都有，就我所瞭解，當時幾乎是只要誰能夠掌握到雞蛋，能夠把雞蛋進來，大概你們都是買斷，甚至引進來的一個主要依據，是吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是這樣子的，111年有一部分是因為氣候還有禽流感的關係，但是那時缺蛋的嚴重性沒有112年那麼嚴重，那時候我們剛好是COVID-19復甦的第2年，相對增加了很多蛋的需求，當雞蛋產能不夠時，為了配合穩定後端的物價，我們開始啟動雞蛋的進口，當時只有臺、美、澳這3個國家能夠進口，所以我們在112年才會比較著重在日本雞蛋的進口，可是日本的雞蛋也相對遇到類似問題。誠如委員所說，我們在買蛋的過程中，其實重點就是我們一定要買得到蛋，只要你有能力從日本能夠進口到蛋，我們會經過適當的評估。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我記得當時還有很多人問，日本的蛋為什麼便宜？事實上日本有很多蛋也是進口進來的……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我們其實也是用日本那樣的作法來進口蛋，來滿足臺灣的需要……"],["陳部長駿季：是，類似這樣的方式。"],["賴委員瑞隆：裡面談到合約的部分，我甚至看到有人講到超思，超思2022年是用買斷的方式，2023年是用簽約的方式。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那亮采的部分，2022年是用簽約的方式，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：他們在4月之前是用簽約的方式，因為那時候是用合約的方式，後來我們發現4月以後缺蛋的情況可能比較嚴峻，所以我們那時候……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以你們在考量上，如果在沒那麼急迫的狀況下，你們會採用簽約的方式是不是？但如果在比較急迫、搶蛋的同時，你們會採用誰有現貨就直接買斷處理？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個部分就是我們考量用合約還是用買斷的方式其中之一，因為合約就必須要有一個比較長期性的，像2023年專案進口的時候，我們希望有一個比較長期且能穩定供應的，在111年後期進口數量不多，考慮到貿易商如果以量不大的數量去簽約有其麻煩性，還有他們的意願，那他們的意願是用到貨付款的方式，我們也都會尊重。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想瞭解一下，因為這件事情吵很久了，從去年8月一直提到現在已經快要1年的時間，內部也做了相關的調查……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長就你們的調查、瞭解，到底裡面有沒有涉及違法的事項？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上我們看到的行政調查結果，畜產會在整個雞蛋的處理過程中有一些行政瑕疵跟疏失，有檢討的空間，我舉個例子，就像我們看到的，他們沒有依照政府採購法去做……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你講的是倉儲跟運輸的部分？"],["陳部長駿季：對，倉儲跟運輸。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那雞蛋用直接買斷是沒有問題的？"],["陳部長駿季：直接買斷是絕對沒問題，它是貿易的行為之一。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以那屬於你們認為的行政瑕疵？"],["陳部長駿季：我們問過了，因為牽涉到補助款的給與，所以屬於行政瑕疵。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以你們把補助款收回？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，這些檢調有沒有介入調查了？"],["陳部長駿季：我們沒有辦法很清楚釐清的是，畜產會是以很單純的貨到付款，可是我們也看到了雞蛋商亮采跟超思有私法人之間的貿易關係，那這個關係我們已經……因為以農業部督導的角色……"],["賴委員瑞隆：什麼時候移送的？"],["陳部長駿季：大概是5月底、6月初的時候。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我希望儘快把它釐清好不好？對於所有相關政府部門的作為，如果有任何指控是不實的部分，我希望部長要強力的去捍衛……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我一定會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為這有很多是政策性的因素……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當時政策是在缺蛋的時候有很多爭議，如果有任何不法，當然司法該怎麼辦就怎麼辦，但如果沒有涉及不法，那也要還給同仁們清白，要不然農產品的問題未來都還會持續遇到，這樣的話，變成很多相關的採購跟進行都會出很多問題，這個問題又會變成更複雜的政治問題。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請賴惠員委員詢答，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.5959687500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.684093750000001,"end":6.156593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.974718750000001,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.636593750000003,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.172218750000003,"end":18.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.972843750000003,"end":22.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.457843750000002,"end":24.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.05659375,"end":39.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.97409375,"end":46.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.60596875,"end":48.479093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.479093750000004,"end":48.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.27221875,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.031593750000006,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.71721875,"end":68.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.64471875000001,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.51721875,"end":76.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.93034375,"end":80.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.33909375,"end":91.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.76784375000001,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.95346875,"end":94.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.04596875,"end":107.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.10409375,"end":99.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.96471875,"end":100.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.76096875,"end":117.32909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.22784375,"end":132.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.32659375,"end":167.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.61659375000002,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.12221875,"end":174.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.77159375000002,"end":179.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.93534375000002,"end":180.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.11659375000002,"end":186.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.68096875,"end":208.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.77909375000002,"end":207.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.23471875,"end":208.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.75784375,"end":228.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.48284375,"end":213.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.49971875,"end":213.93846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.93846875000003,"end":214.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.66284375,"end":222.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.33284375000002,"end":234.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.47971875000002,"end":235.01534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.01534375000003,"end":240.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.90971875000002,"end":236.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.36534375000002,"end":237.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.67721875,"end":239.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.70221875000001,"end":247.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.12721875000003,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.97034375,"end":267.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.56721875,"end":272.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.93346875000003,"end":284.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.23971875,"end":287.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.53034375000004,"end":287.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.58096875,"end":287.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.61471875,"end":287.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.71596875,"end":287.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.78346875,"end":287.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.12096875000003,"end":297.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.72721875,"end":299.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.73534375,"end":306.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.35034375000004,"end":314.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.79221875,"end":313.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.91846875000005,"end":314.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":314.95221875000004,"end":314.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.98596875000004,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.03659375,"end":315.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.82971875000004,"end":315.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.84659375,"end":315.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.86346875000004,"end":315.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.04909375,"end":317.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.29784375,"end":317.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.31471875,"end":318.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.47909375,"end":318.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.49596875000003,"end":318.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.69846875,"end":318.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.74909375000004,"end":318.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.76596875,"end":323.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.80721875,"end":325.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.97159375,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.03909375,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.03471875,"end":338.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.54346875000005,"end":338.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.18471875,"end":339.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.23534375,"end":340.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.26471875000004,"end":340.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.65284375000005,"end":340.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.82159375000003,"end":341.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.85534375000003,"end":341.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.83409375,"end":341.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.85096875000005,"end":364.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.17221875,"end":370.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":370.52159375,"end":371.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.75346875,"end":408.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.30471875,"end":442.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.13471875000005,"end":448.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.92284375,"end":452.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.51721875000004,"end":458.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":457.41096875000005,"end":467.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.51159375000003,"end":462.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.43096875000003,"end":466.20284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.50221875000005,"end":467.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.53596875000005,"end":480.93471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.93471875000006,"end":493.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.21971875,"end":503.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.91846875000005,"end":522.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":504.01971875000004,"end":504.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.86909375,"end":525.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.95721875,"end":530.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.0703437500001,"end":535.0022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":535.0022187500001,"end":535.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.93034375,"end":536.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":536.9765937500001,"end":542.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":542.8997187500001,"end":549.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.02534375,"end":567.4697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":567.4697187500001,"end":570.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.1740937500001,"end":571.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":571.0303437499999,"end":578.9109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.06409375,"end":571.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.7765937500001,"end":576.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.6453437499999,"end":616.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":611.86784375,"end":612.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":613.0322187500001,"end":613.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":616.35659375,"end":652.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.86534375,"end":628.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.0365937500001,"end":639.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.92909375,"end":652.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.9753437500001,"end":653.3972187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":23.479,"text":"我們請賴瑞隆委員請做巡檔,謝謝好,謝昭緯,請陳部長我們再請陳部長各位與會人士我們今天沒有休息所以如果要這個人性管理請自行處理,謝謝"},{"start":25.097,"end":25.377,"text":"部長為什麼會有這樣的狀況?"},{"start":49.344,"end":67.654,"text":"就全台灣整體在減少而在媽祖卻是整體我講全台灣的牡蠣大概在兩萬噸上下那過往大概平均大概一萬七千噸我先講國內的部分然後不足的地方是從國外的特別是以越南為主那當你國內的因為氣候關係調降的時候那"},{"start":68.695,"end":94.813,"text":"那個越南的牡蠣就會進來可是我們發現這一兩年來這一兩年來的越南的牡蠣包括從五千噸六千噸讓整體的這個產量大概多了兩千噸左右大概到兩千兩百噸不過比較好的情況是它的面積雖然下降但是產值提高了這個產值提高的部分我要講是媽祖牡蠣對那媽祖的部分他從"},{"start":95.733,"end":113.404,"text":"從那個應該是66到148嘛那相對的就是馬祖本身的這些海域過往他比較少種那現在他們覺得說種這個也算是不錯的現在有14家那他們覺得是不錯的一個行業所以他們透過馬祖養殖了以後進到本島來賣"},{"start":115.145,"end":136.732,"text":"這個通道本身現在大概有建立了我只是要特別提醒因為就整個產量來說的話其實媽祖的這個平均每戶的產量狀況是高於臺灣這邊的那我要講的是媽祖的這些牡蠣的重金屬的檢驗其中幾個裡面檢驗特別在這個蛤的部分都是超過1ppm的"},{"start":137.892,"end":167.602,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":167.762,"end":168.502,"text":"我認為這個部分,農業部應該要更有態度去做處理。"},{"start":187.885,"end":208.604,"text":"我想非常重要就是其實從馬祖過來其實我們最擔心的是稀產地的部分所以針對馬祖本身種的我們會要求它本身有成交履歷或追溯的現在14家裡面已經有13家了那一旦有這個追溯系統它的量就能夠了解第二個就是品質的問題就是它品質本身的一個監控養殖條件的一個監控的部分我們會要加強"},{"start":209.445,"end":239.445,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":240.805,"end":266.994,"text":"接下來回來講一下雞蛋我覺得雞蛋這件事情其實很久了我看從去年就已經一直有人在檢舉部長為什麼經過了一整年還有人在炒這件事情部長你怎麼看不過我想其實從今年2月開始許多委員他是針對111年的我們雞蛋的專欄進口是112年的部分所以當這些資料開始釋出的時候"},{"start":267.734,"end":268.996,"text":"我先問一下買斷這件事情有沒有違法?"},{"start":288.217,"end":313.955,"text":"我想整個的貿易的交易的過程中你用合約也可以用到貨付款的方式也可以這是一個非常正常的一個過去來的政府都有採用這兩種方式對這個貨到付款的方式其實在中央區長會其實他已經行事了非常久的一個我會再問一下過去有哪些是用曾經也用這樣的方式來進行我想豬肉的部分有沒有豬肉的部分也是用這樣的方式在哪一年的時候"},{"start":317.597,"end":339.848,"text":"這三年都有用直接買斷的方式去處理那還有其他的例子嗎?報告委員我們在續展會的傳教條件裡面只要透過所謂的直接市場的購入的部分大家都會用這個方式那這幾年大概就是豬肉跟雞蛋這幾年主要這兩個"},{"start":342.166,"end":364.254,"text":"部長我要提的其實在2022年的時候那時候其實就缺氮的狀況就開始甚至社會不斷的有一些生意那到了我都還看到了這個媒體的報導當時的時候甚至於還有立委還認為說連這個中國大陸的他雖然有禽流感他覺得也可以一樣可以進來就那時候的整個社會的氣氛跟氛圍就是"},{"start":365.214,"end":390.399,"text":"台灣因為禽流感的問題而導致我們的蛋量是不足的時候大家在搶蛋的時候沒有蛋的時候一直期盼政府能夠去找到蛋來甚至很多國民黨的立委甚至各黨的立委都還要求要增加雞蛋的來源讓國內能夠充分的能夠來供應這些雞蛋所以我覺得還是還原到當時的那個脈絡裡面去當時大家期待政府是有積極作為來引進這些雞蛋的嘛"},{"start":391.4,"end":407.761,"text":"所以包括剛剛部長有提到嘛包括2022年2023年都有那就我所了解啦齁當時幾乎是只要誰能夠掌握到這個雞蛋能夠把雞蛋進來大概都是你們買斷甚至引進進來的一個主要的這個依據是吧是這樣吧"},{"start":408.442,"end":424.522,"text":"是這樣子喔,就111年的部分因為有一部分是氣候關係還有侵略關係但是那時候的缺氮的嚴重性沒有112年那麼嚴重所以那時候我們剛好是COVID-19的復甦的第二年然後相對的很多氮的需求增加然後雞蛋的產能不夠的時候"},{"start":425.603,"end":448.104,"text":"那那個不夠的時候配合穩定後端的一個物價所以我們開始啟動這個雞蛋的進口那當時的時候只有臺美澳這三個國家能夠進口的時候所以我們在112年才會比較著重在日本的雞蛋進口可是日本的雞蛋相對的也遇到類似的問題所以誠如委員所說的我們在"},{"start":448.985,"end":458.673,"text":"我記得當時還有很多人講說日本的蛋為什麼便宜事實上日本也很多也是進口進來的所以我們其實也是用日本這樣的做法來進口蛋來滿足台灣的需要那裡面談到合約那個部分我看到甚至有的講到超市2022年是用買斷的方式2023年是用簽約的方式"},{"start":476.829,"end":491.4,"text":"那亮彩的部分2022年是用簽約的方式嗎?是不是?他在那個4月之前是用簽約的方式因為那個時候是用合約的方式後來我們發現說4月以後的那個缺氮情況可能比較嚴峻了"},{"start":493.262,"end":517.679,"text":"所以你們在考量上如果沒那麼急迫狀態下你們會採用簽約是不是但是如果在比較急迫搶蛋的同時的時候你們會採用誰有現貨能夠買斷就直接做出來對 這個部分就是我們考量用合約還是用買斷的方式的其中之一因為合約的話就必須要有一個比較長期性的像2023那個專案進口的時候我們希望有一個比較長期性能穩定供應的那2011年的時候"},{"start":519.821,"end":535.623,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":539.207,"end":553.304,"text":"從去年8月一直要提到現在已經快了一年的時間了內部也做了相關的調查 部長就你的調查了解到底裡面有沒有涉及到違法的事項我想基本上我們看到的情證調查的結果他有非常"},{"start":553.925,"end":569.082,"text":"有些續產會那邊在整個雞蛋的處理過程中有一些形成的一個一個瑕疵跟疏失有檢討的空間那我舉個例子就像我們看到了就是他沒有依照政府採購法去做的部分您講的是倉儲跟運輸這個對倉儲跟運輸的部分對"},{"start":571.184,"end":588.596,"text":"那雞蛋的部分用職業買斷這是沒有問題的嗎?職業買斷這絕對沒問題所以這個屬於是你們認為是行政瑕疵的部分?這個我們問過了齁因為它牽涉到補助款的給予的部分它是屬於行政瑕疵的部分所以你們把這個補助款的部分收回嗎?是好那這些部分檢調有沒有介入在做調查的?"},{"start":588.996,"end":615.543,"text":"我想我們看到的就是我們沒有辦法去很清楚釐清的就是我們與區長會的部分是貨到付款很單純可是我們也看到了部分的那個雞蛋齁亮彩跟超私有私人的這些司法人的一個關係的一個貿易關係那這個關係我們已經以農業部督導的角色什麼時候移送的?我們大概是五月底六月初的時候"},{"start":616.783,"end":638.949,"text":"我希望這些部分盡快的把它釐清好不好但是所有的相關政府部門的所以作為其實還是如果有任何指控是不實的部分我還希望部長要強力的去捍衛因為這些有很多是政策性的因素那政策上當時在缺單下大家有很多爭氣當然如果裡面有任何不法那當然司法該怎麼辦怎麼辦但是如果沒有涉及的部分也要還給這些同仁們清白"},{"start":639.309,"end":653.353,"text":"⋯⋯"}]}},{"id":"154358","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154358","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c7d7cabb2607545264b539dbd63c1cc91b8981cfbc017771bd7e03f78ebb5359b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:34:13 - 10:45:05","影片長度":"00:10:52","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:34:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:45:05+08:00","duration":652,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":360,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時34分）我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，臺灣現在是正常國家嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：很特別啦！"],["陳委員冠廷：很特別嘛！我們在國際的地位是很特別的正常國家？"],["林部長佳龍：應該說很特別，當然你要看怎麼定義正常，比如說國際上的外交處境確實很不正常、很特別。"],["陳委員冠廷：一個國家的幾個構成要件，我想就不用再贅述，加入聯合國是其中的重要要件嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不是。"],["陳委員冠廷：不是重要的要件嘛！今天我看到我們的議程是請部長來報告如何用國際友我組織去加入聯合國，其實這半年來，不管是在當選前後跟各個不同國會議員的交流過程當中，我們有聽到一些不同的看法，當然加入聯合國是一個重要的里程碑，也是我們必須不斷促成的，但是考量到常任理事國的否決權，還有他們在第三世界國家的影響力，短期間就算有歐美的全力協助，也不見得能夠達成，所以我今天想問，我們把這個議程用另外一個方式來想，如何運用國際友我組織達成加入聯合國的同等目標？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長針對這句話有怎麼樣的看法？"],["林部長佳龍：請委員再講一下剛剛……"],["陳委員冠廷：利用友我組織達成加入聯合國相關組織的具體做法是你們的命題，但我說有沒有辦法運用友我組織達成加入聯合國相關的同等目標？聯合國幾個重要的議程是什麼？包含永續、包含跟各國之間的交流等等，我們有沒有辦法擁有超聯合國的這樣做法？也是一樣，藉由在國際上各種不同、非聯合國體制下面的相關聯盟，去加強我國跟其他不管是國際上的國家實體或非國家實體的互動？部長，你有沒有這樣的想法或有沒有這樣的計劃？"],["林部長佳龍：有，其實在全球化的時代，臺灣是世界的臺灣，這不只是說價值外交、理念相近，最主要是實質上臺灣對全球的影響很大，我想包括從晶片；另外一方面是我們在國際上怎麼參與，當然聯合國是最重要的目標，但是不只有聯合國，我們跟很多國家之間，其實很多國際組織也不屬於聯合國，臺灣也可以創設一些國際組織，所以臺灣在這方面，我們勇敢自信、世界同行。至於為什麼要處理參加聯合國，是因為中國把臺灣參加聯合國當成一中原則的體現，我們一定不能接受這種誤用第2758號決議，這就像一個鍋蓋把臺灣蓋住，這個鍋蓋如果能拿走，臺灣的國際參與空間就非常大，但這個目標也是最大、很困難的一個挑戰，可是以這個為目標之外，我們其實在過程中就跟國際有很多互動，這也是我們的另外一個目標。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以部長，我還是要再強調，除了加入聯合國之外，以其他相似的功能性導向去盤點任何的國際組織，在非聯合國體制之下我們能夠參與、能夠發聲，甚至能夠扮演重要角色的，我們都去促成，我想這也是很重要的。剛才有提到第2758號決議文，我想請部長再次透過國會的這個機會重申一下，因為第2758號決議文現在在中國的敘事框架直接連結到一中原則，部長怎麼看這件事情？你覺得我們要怎麼樣解讀？"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得包括美國國務院數次的聲明都可以很清楚地看到，他們經過很詳細的研究，不管就聯合國第2758號決議相關的國際法，其實它的內容不涉及臺灣的國際參與，所以這部分就是一個開放的空間，至於中共要把它扭曲為一中原則，進而排除臺灣，我想我們臺灣除了發聲以外，國際上現在愈來愈多都理解原來那是中共塑造出來的一套假論述。臺灣在這個過程裡面跟理念相近的國家，像G7其實都以行動在加強我們的多邊關係，比如我們跟美國也透過全球合作暨訓練架構（GCTF）在架構另外一個可能的國際組織關係，所以這些空間非常大，現在只是怎麼讓更多人正確理解，不要聽信中共的片面之詞，而排除跟臺灣交往或者國際參與。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。部長，再來要請教一下駐美代表的事件，我覺得要藉這個機會以正視聽，不管是怎麼樣，如果有這件事情，我們要知道這個進展為如何，從2000年到現在，我們有幾個代表？"],["林部長佳龍：2000年到現在……"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係！這個不重要、這不重要，我們來講一下，從程建人、李大維、吳釗燮、袁健生、金溥聰、沈呂巡到高碩泰，我們一切要講究的是什麼？體制上如果不違法，如果你只是用觀感或者你對一個人不滿，就可以用內部的方式去糾舉嗎？現行的體制是怎麼做？"],["林部長佳龍：這是兩個問題，採購是不是有違反法規……"],["陳委員冠廷：有沒有？部長，沒有嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：既然是我們秘書處跟會計核可的，那就是程序上沒有問題，所以是合法。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，沒有違法，這是第一點。"],["林部長佳龍：但是有個項目有些人覺得有意見，也經過媒體報導，我們把它澄清，也就是這個項目真正的價格是多少，有沒有反映實際上……"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我現在不就細部做討論，因為如果要就每個細部來討論的話，這樣同時可以反映到五院院長、每一個部會的首長，甚至包含部長本身，下到縣市首長……"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們基本上都是授權第一線的……"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係，我們不討論這種會計項目，我們要問的是你剛剛說合法，再來有沒有合理？前例可不可循？從程建人、李大維、吳釗燮、袁健生、金溥聰、沈呂巡到高碩泰，比較起來是不是符合前例？有或沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：所以除了合法性，它的必要性等等……"],["陳委員冠廷：這次的合理性有沒有跟過去是一樣的？有沒有不同之處？"],["林部長佳龍：就是那些項目，因為一開始大家報的數字很大，後來知道不是這麼大，有一些是錯誤的報導，我們就把它澄清。我為什麼說這個具體的項目要去談，因為大家從自己的感覺覺得好像比較貴，可是經過說明，它也是一個採購核可過的。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我要請教的是跟前例有沒有一致性？有沒有？我不是講單價、我不是要講價格，我是說如果合理又合法的話，那我們要還公道；如果是合法但不合理的話，內部要有懲處；但如果又合法又合理，只是一個外交人員的看法的話，那內部要檢討，所以有沒有合法、有沒有合理？到底這件事情是對還是錯、誰對誰錯？這個一定要很公正，部長作為外交部的大家長必須要站出來，到底是哪一個人做錯了，必須要有很明確課責的做法，不管是哪一個，不管是大使或者是……"],["林部長佳龍：我們分層負責，基本上這種採購我們都有規範跟程序，只要符合規範跟程序，基本上我們就尊重，不管權責機關、不管是駐外大使或者我們的秘書、會計單位。至於單項，外界已經有報導了，因為有錯誤的訊息，我們就澄清。至於外界認為有沒有必要性去換這個床跟沙發，我今天早上也講，就床的部分，用20年前同樣的品牌去換，現在價格比較高，它應該是有合理性，可是沙發比一般人認定的價格可能高一些，那就好好去說明這個採購。因為這個採購已經在我上任之前經過我們外交部的秘書處核可，我覺得只要是依法行政，我都予以尊重。至於內部有些人對於管理方式有意見，而可能有去爆料的問題，只要內容是真的，我們就要處理，他也許還沒有去正式申訴或者是怎麼樣的檢舉，我們目前並沒有正式收到，但是我們大概知道，因為內部的管理又涉及在外館，這個時候要好好把內部管理做個檢討，大家一起一個團隊，不要因為互相的不信任或是因為工作上的不平而影響我們外館，尤其在華府這麼重要的地方，它能夠發揮的一個功能……"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，謝謝。我沒有要針對每一個細節，只是你要跟之前的代表們比較這個是不是合理，如果合法、合理的話，就可能要還公道；但如果合法但不合理，就代表也要接受檢驗，這就是我一直在強調的，跟前例比，不是就單向比，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":0.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.10534375,"end":11.269718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.87721875,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.450968750000001,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.505343750000002,"end":15.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.53471875,"end":20.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.60159375,"end":22.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.94721875,"end":22.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.01034375,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.02721875,"end":37.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.611593750000004,"end":38.556593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.06284375,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.10784375,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.49159375,"end":49.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.32034375,"end":90.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.32471875,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.71159375,"end":101.93909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.73221875,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.76596875000001,"end":104.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.23409375,"end":115.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.74284375,"end":143.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.80534375,"end":120.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.14784375000002,"end":143.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.94096875,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.84909375,"end":201.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.60284375,"end":207.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.96471875,"end":212.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.19596875000002,"end":218.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.16971875000002,"end":223.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.29596875000001,"end":221.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.85284375,"end":256.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.74596875000003,"end":257.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.76284375,"end":257.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.96534375,"end":258.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.03284375000004,"end":273.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.40159375,"end":281.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.50596875,"end":290.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.83784375,"end":302.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.85284375000003,"end":303.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.21971875,"end":306.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.53159375,"end":308.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.28221875,"end":310.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.03721875,"end":318.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.00221875,"end":320.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.16659375,"end":331.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.77659375,"end":334.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.93221875,"end":338.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.96534375000005,"end":348.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.92159375,"end":352.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.49034375,"end":366.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.15659375,"end":359.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.33346875,"end":361.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.18471875,"end":366.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.57284375,"end":380.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.69721875000005,"end":380.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.73096875000005,"end":380.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.76471875000004,"end":380.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.42284375,"end":381.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.45659375,"end":386.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.53596875000005,"end":386.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.90721875,"end":412.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.25284375,"end":390.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.27284375000005,"end":397.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.97721875,"end":398.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.96221875000003,"end":429.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.86784375,"end":425.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.48346875000004,"end":427.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.17909375000005,"end":431.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.55846875000003,"end":437.51534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.73471875,"end":439.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.84409375,"end":441.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.02096875,"end":442.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.48909375000005,"end":444.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.53971875,"end":449.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.49721875,"end":447.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.13784375,"end":454.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.01471875000004,"end":458.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.03096875000006,"end":459.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.19971875000005,"end":469.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.88159375000004,"end":471.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.94909375000003,"end":470.84346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.72096875000005,"end":510.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.45784375000005,"end":537.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.9722187500001,"end":566.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.7778437500001,"end":567.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.4822187500001,"end":570.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.4184687500001,"end":573.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.9328437500001,"end":579.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.61971875,"end":592.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.11971875,"end":594.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.51596875,"end":599.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.63346875,"end":608.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.5772187499999,"end":619.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.28846875,"end":629.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.26159375,"end":634.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.5647187500001,"end":636.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.1340937500001,"end":641.3484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.22596875,"end":643.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.2803437499999,"end":646.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.01846875,"end":649.0434687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.086,"end":22.742,"text":"委員長部長好委員長部長台灣現在是正常國家嗎很特別啦很特別嗎我們在國際的地位是很特別的正常的國家"},{"start":24.716,"end":46.923,"text":"應該說很特別就是當然你看怎麼定義正常比如說國際上面的這個外交上這個處境確實是很不正常很特別一個國家他的幾個構成的要件這個我想就不用再追溯那其中加入聯合國是其中的重要的要件嗎"},{"start":49.991,"end":63.691,"text":"今天我看到我們的議程是說請部長來報告如何用國際友我組織來去加入聯合國那其實在這半年來不管是在當選前後那跟各個不同的國會議員的交流的這個過程當中"},{"start":65.373,"end":89.841,"text":"我們有聽到一些不同的看法就是說當然加入聯合國是一個重要的里程碑那也是我們必須要不斷在促成的但是考量到這一個長安領事國的這個否決權還有他們在整個第三世界國家的這個影響力那短期間就算有歐美的權力的協助也不見得能夠達成所以我今天想問說"},{"start":91.38,"end":101.248,"text":"把這個議程我們用另外一個方式來想如何運用國際友我組織達成加入聯合國的同等目標是部長有怎麼樣的看法針對這句話"},{"start":104.54,"end":126.369,"text":"運用友我的組織達成加入聯合國相關組織的具體做法是你們的命題嘛那我說有沒有辦法運用友我的組織達成加入聯合國的相關的同等目標聯合國的幾個重要的議程是什麼包含永續嘛包含這個跟各國之間的交等等有沒有辦法用超聯合國的這樣子也是一樣"},{"start":127.069,"end":127.229,"text":"主席"},{"start":144.056,"end":171.843,"text":"其實在全球化的時代其實台灣是世界的台灣這個不只是說價值外交理念相近至少說實質上台灣其實對全球的影響是很大的我想包括從晶片那另外一方面就是我們在國際上怎麼去參與當然聯合國是最重要的目標但是不是只有聯合國"},{"start":172.603,"end":196.381,"text":"我們跟很多國家其實很多國際組織也不屬於聯合國那臺灣也可以去創設一些國際組織所以臺灣這方面我們勇敢自信世界同行那至於說為什麼要去處理參加聯合國那是因為中國對於臺灣參加聯合國把它當作一個一中原則的體現我們一定是要去不能夠接受這一種勿用這個所謂的2758號決議"},{"start":200.044,"end":218.143,"text":"那這個就像一個鍋蓋把台灣蓋住這個鍋蓋如果能夠拿走那台灣的國際參與空間就非常的大但是這個目標也是最大的很困難的一個挑戰可是以這個為目標之外我們其實在過程中其實就跟國際有很多的互動"},{"start":219.269,"end":241.755,"text":"其實這個也是另外一個目標所以部長我還是在強調說除了加入聯合國之外其他相似的功能性做功能性的導向來去盤點任何國際組織在非聯合國體制之下我們能夠參與能夠發聲那甚至是能夠扮演重要角色的我們都能夠來去促成我想這也是很重要的但是我想剛才也提到2758號的決議文我想請部長"},{"start":243.996,"end":273.023,"text":"再次透過這樣子國會的這個機會來去重申一下因為2758號決議文現在在中國的敘事框架他直接把它連結到一中原則部長你怎麼看這件事情你覺得我們要怎麼樣解讀我覺得針對美國包括國務院的數次的聲明都可以很清楚的看到其實他們是經過很詳細的研究不管就聯合國的這個2758號決議相關的國際法那其實它的內容"},{"start":274.645,"end":302.906,"text":"不涉及台灣的國際的參與所以這個部分就是一個開放的空間那至於說中共要把它把它扭曲為一中原則進而排除台灣我想我們除了台灣發聲以外其實在國際上現在越來越多都去理解說原來那個是一個中共他這個塑造出來的依靠假的論述那"},{"start":304.804,"end":331.18,"text":"臺灣其實在這個過程裡面跟理念相近的國家像G7其實都以行動在加強我們多邊的關係比如說我們也透過跟美國像GCTF像國際合作訓練架構其實也在架構一個可能另外的一個國際的一種組織的關係所以這些其實空間是非常的大那現在只是怎麼樣讓更多的人正確的理解不要"},{"start":332.64,"end":352.49,"text":"聽信中共的片面之詞而排除了跟台灣交往或國際參與謝謝部長部長再來要請教一下駐美代表的事件我覺得要藉這個機會來正式聽不管是怎麼樣如果有這件事情我們要知道這個進展為如何從2000年到現在我們有幾個代表"},{"start":354.84,"end":380.539,"text":"2000年到現在大概沒關係這個不重要這不重要我們來講一下從陳建仁李大偉吳釗燮袁建生金埔聰省里巡到高碩泰我們一切要講究的是什麼就是說體制上面如果不違法那如果你只是用觀感或者是你代表對一個人的不滿那就可以用內部的方式來去糾舉嗎這是現行的體制是怎麼樣做"},{"start":381.459,"end":381.759,"text":"這是兩個問題就是說採購是不是有為"},{"start":387.119,"end":410.101,"text":"反法規目前因為它既然是我們秘書處跟我們的會計合可的那就是程序上沒有問題所以是合法但是有個項目有些人覺得有意見那也經過媒體報導我們把它澄清就是說這個項目它的真正的價格是多少那有沒有反應實際上就是"},{"start":412.023,"end":425.968,"text":"我現在不就細部來去做討論因為如果要做每一個細部來討論的話那這樣子同時可以反映到五院院長每一個部會的首長甚至包含部長本身下到縣市首長我們要問的是你剛剛說合法在有沒有合理"},{"start":431.73,"end":448.857,"text":"前例可不可詢?從陳建仁、李大維、吳釗燮、袁建生、金浦聰、沈宇群到高索泰,前例比較起來,是不是符合前例?有或沒有?所以除了合法性﹐他的這個﹐合理性﹐有沒有跟過去是一樣的﹐對,等等﹐有沒有不同之處?"},{"start":450.162,"end":450.362,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":471.832,"end":495.217,"text":"要請教的是有沒有跟潛力是一致性有沒有我不是講單價我不要講價格我們對這個價格如果是合理又合法的話那我們要還公道如果是合法但不合理的話那內部要有懲處那如果又是合法又合理那只是一個外交人員的看法的話那內部要檢討所以你有沒有合法有沒有合理到底這件事情"},{"start":496.257,"end":521.095,"text":"是對還是錯?誰對誰錯?這個一定要很公正的必須要部長作為外交部的大家長必須要站出來哪一個人到底是哪一個人做錯了必須要很明確的克責的這個做法不管是哪一個不管是大型或者是...我們凡是負責基本上這種採購我們都有規範跟程序他只要符合這個規範跟程序基本上我們就尊重嘛不管是權責機關不管是駐外的這個大使或者我們的秘書、會計單位"},{"start":524.077,"end":539.523,"text":"這單項因為外界已經有報導了因為有錯誤的訊息我們就澄清至於說外界認為這樣有沒有必要性去換這個床跟沙發我今天早上也講這床的部分因為20年前同樣一個品牌他去換現在價格比較高"},{"start":540.983,"end":570.009,"text":"他應該是有合理性可是沙發比一般人認定的可能價格高一些那就好好的去說明這個採購因為這個採購已經經過我們外交部的秘書處跟已經合可了在我上任之前我覺得這個只要是依法行政我都予以尊重至於說內部因為有些人對於管理方式有意見而可能去有爆料的問題那只要他的內容是"},{"start":571.482,"end":593.247,"text":"是真的我們就要處理他也許還沒有正式去申訴或者是說去怎麼樣的檢舉我們目前並沒有正式的這樣的一個他提出來但是我們大概知道因為內部的管理又涉及到在外管這個時候"},{"start":595.875,"end":616.611,"text":"要去好好地把內部管理的東西也做個檢討因為讓大家一起一個團隊不要因為互相的這種不信任或者是因為工作上的這些不平而導致我們外館尤其在華府這個地方這麼重要它的能夠發揮的一個功能"},{"start":620.799,"end":621.099,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154356","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154356","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726cb5c22be70f55fa7821a3f23b3ad13ea2b8981cfbc017771b1f2764423691c52a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:36:56 - 10:48:00","影片長度":"00:11:04","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:36:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:48:00+08:00","duration":664,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時37分）主席，首先有請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：我們請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["陳委員超明：部長好。部長，我跟你請教，你是幾年次的？"],["陳部長駿季：47年次。"],["陳委員超明：47年次，好，這樣瞭解。部長，每次在委員會的質詢還有院會的總質詢，我一直強調，苗栗縣一定要成立低丘緩坡示範區，苗栗縣的土地裡面有86%是山坡地，我們受到限制，苗栗縣的喉嚨被鎖住了。我跟你說實際的情形，苗栗的山坡地1甲地大概是1,500萬到2,000萬，講難聽一點，在都市的臺北市、新北市，大概買不到10坪到20坪的房子，你看這個比例差了多少。部長，這真的對農民很不公平，農民又分成兩種，都市計畫區裡面農地的農民，都市計畫外一些農地的農民，他們的命運都不一樣，為什麼一樣的農地，都市計畫內的農地可以市地重劃，就不用承擔糧食安全各方面的問題，為什麼都市計畫外的農地要受到種種限制？尤其苗栗縣的山坡地占了86%，你們知道嗎？你們的農發條例一來，你們聽那些學者在講，只有說山坡地要保持安全。我跟部長說，現在的百姓太聰明了，自己蓋的房子比誰都照顧得好，不能發生問題。只為了一昧的假清高，把農民的財產都降下來，以前1甲地可以賣到三千多、兩千多，現在剩下一千五還沒有人要，這是天到地的差別，農民是靠這些財產過日子，現在老農民為什麼還在耕種呢？是做健康的，不是要賺錢的，給你農業部一個面子而已。所以在這裡我要再三跟你強調，我希望你跟我還有水保署跟我下去看，你看到時就會覺得退休的時候要到那個地方住，鳥語花香、人間仙境。為什麼現在不給開發？其實裡面你有開發，包括農地的耕作，你甚至可以組織農耕隊，你們要大膽的改革啊！你的AI內閣要有行動也要有創新，像我86%的山坡地都讓你們限制到死掉了，大家不敢種，也沒人敢去買，大家都很天真，沒有依照地形地物的狀況，學者是這樣寫，而且當初是在一個潮流上沒有人敢反對。我現在跟你要求一項，我比你年紀還大，但是我永遠是行動，我永遠敢於創新，我帶你來看，我們在苗栗縣政府裡面討論完我們山坡地要如何開發，我要把苗栗縣的山坡地打造像日本輕井澤一樣那麼舒適，也可以減低了很多都市人口的壓力，年紀大一點的人，可以在苗栗縣來康養非常好，觀念要改變。因為苗栗縣有獨特的地方，到臺北市高鐵40分鐘；臺中18分鐘；到高雄大概七十幾分鐘，而且從苗栗縣的高鐵站到苗栗縣每一個鄉鎮30分鐘就會到，非常輕鬆，是非常好的一個地方。","我在這再三提出來，我覺得我們做事情一定要大膽、要創新、要物盡其用，不是這樣綁死在那邊，滿山滿野以前種的水果都沒有人在摘啊，缺工缺的很嚴重，年輕人也不想做，我們也要改變一下方式，換你來支持我這個計畫，我帶你去看，我們把問題提出來。真的是好地方，被你們農發條例限制變成垃圾，我一定要活化！不用怕，你給我們一個試驗地區，由縣政府來指導，法案跟你們討論通過以後做一次給人家看，這樣臺灣才會進步，而不是永遠保守在那邊什麼都不能破壞。我常常講都市人禮拜一到禮拜五你們在這邊燈紅酒綠，禮拜五晚上到我們鄉下地方，禮拜六、禮拜天我們的青山、綠水、好山、好水都可以讓你享受。你們有幫忙我們什麼？為什麼都市裡面的農地可以重劃變為住宅區、變為商業區，為什麼我們山坡地要特別受到你們規限，現在缺工幾乎沒有人在種，有時候你看到會覺得很悲哀，跟我說：超明，我山上的梨子，我那邊橘子都種的很多，你自己去摘，但誰要去爬？","大家不要食古不化以為自己都清流，我這個叫做務實派，要不要答應支持我？我們兩個，還有水保局跟我去看，三個人，半天給你看到民間的力量有多麼偉大，創造一個美好地方，能實現大家人生要來修養、安養的一個地方。我講的你聽懂了嗎？你不跟我回答，我以為聽不懂，我國語太差了。"],["陳部長駿季：委員我很仔細的聽，我記得委員在上次的總質詢也有提到，我那時候也承諾在會期結束以後，我一定會安排我的同仁好好的去看，看怎麼樣……"],["陳委員超明：不要太多人，幾個人去看一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，我不會帶一群人啦，不會這樣，就是幾個人我們去瞭解。"],["陳委員超明：再怎麼講他們也不要打擾人……"],["陳部長駿季：因為我知道委員的那個想法……"],["陳委員超明：當然你也瞭解很多地方，當初已經做了……"],["陳部長駿季：然後我們看看怎麼樣用一個方式去協助，特別在坡地，因為苗栗地區的坡地大概有六萬多公頃，比平地多，都坡地啦，怎麼樣去做一個比較好的措施……"],["陳委員超明：所以我們多可憐咧！稻子要種給大家吃，也不會開發、也不會進步，哪有這樣的道理？改變一下啦！世間這樣太不公平了。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們不能用……因為農地的價值不是只有錢而已啦，因為農地的價值，你如果跟都會區土地的價值在比，我覺得那個就是去弱化了農業的價值啦！"],["陳委員超明：不是弱化，我還會再給你強化，我敢這樣跟你講。"],["陳部長駿季：那很好啊！"],["陳委員超明：我的觀念提出來你一定會認同，那是你們怕死，怕人去修理你們，沒做過你怎麼知道好壞？好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我會去瞭解。"],["陳委員超明：今天講到農業移工，現在的狀況失聯移工是占了一大部分啦，在農忙的時候看你部長夠不夠力，你外來的移工，現在從6,000人到1萬2,000人調度的問題，每一個農產品產季都不一樣。現在依我瞭解，這些農民要叫臺灣人來做，沒什麼人要做，要去拜託，拜託到很沒面子，那些主力才是主力，我先偷偷的跟你說。其實有時候不要感謝他們，為什麼？那段時間大家寧願錢高一點給他們，他們要出來做，永遠你要記得一個觀念，這些移工一進來他就是要賺錢，那一段時間有給他賺錢，他就會努力做，臺灣人做一天，他半天就給你完成了，我跟你講我碰很多，我在地方跑都會被問到這個問題。","第二個，關於移工要進來，你們以農會系統的方式我也支持，但是我告訴你……"],["陳部長駿季：合作社也有啦！"],["陳委員超明：農業系統有放款的單位，當然也有輔導的單位，比較官僚一點，我說這句話不要以為就是我們那邊的農會，我相信你不會，我是把實情告訴你，因為我要替你解決問題……","另外，我碰到了幾個農會的青年人不錯，像我們苑裡農會，像我們的西湖農會那些青農不錯，其實你真的要調用，農會行動可能會比較緩慢，那些青農都很熱心，不單是耕作，而且是地方有實力的，他認識的人很多，好好把持這個是重要的樁腳。所以他們為了要服務，將來他們要在地方發展的時候，只要農民來拜託他，他就會去幫解決問題，快速……好好的運用有效率的青農，我看過我們苑裡的青農真的很團結，也真的在做事情，西湖的也不錯，每一個地方的青農培養出來不一樣。我覺得這樣的青農，他有農業各方面的人在那邊，他們反應的速度很快，調整人力好好整合給他們去運用一下，可能會非常快。","當然未來CPTPP進來，我們農會會碰到更大的麻煩，現在因應好，外來勢必是我們以後農業的主力，現在沒人要做了，我跟你說真的，而且收穫也不高，只維護他的土地，這些老人在做什麼？這叫做健康的啦！好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員。接下來我們請賴瑞隆委員做詢答，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.2878437500000004,"end":4.283468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.464718750000001,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.01721875,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.126593750000001,"end":10.122218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.41221875,"end":18.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.82971875,"end":19.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.51721875,"end":21.242843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.95159375,"end":22.879718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.47034375,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.47846875,"end":26.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.54159375,"end":28.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.566593750000003,"end":29.562218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.625343750000003,"end":31.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.789718750000002,"end":34.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.16471875,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.924093750000004,"end":37.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.20221875,"end":39.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.32846875,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.627843750000004,"end":45.424718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.268468750000004,"end":50.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.16221875,"end":53.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.81159375,"end":54.486593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.94221875,"end":56.98409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.81096875,"end":59.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.494093750000005,"end":61.945343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.485343750000006,"end":64.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.92784375000001,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.05409375,"end":69.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.47159375000001,"end":70.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.02409375,"end":72.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.23471875,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.89221875,"end":79.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.96784375,"end":80.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.62159375,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.66346875,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.44784375,"end":88.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.81034375,"end":89.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.80159375000001,"end":92.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.11346875000001,"end":94.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.80096875000001,"end":96.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.97784375,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.98159375,"end":101.75346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.66471875,"end":105.53346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.36034375000001,"end":109.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.57909375000001,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.59096875,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.79284375,"end":120.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.88971875000001,"end":122.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.11721875,"end":124.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.42909375,"end":128.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.58471875,"end":136.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.78596875,"end":139.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.00909375,"end":142.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.85659375,"end":149.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.81346875,"end":152.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.85096875000002,"end":155.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.31034375000002,"end":161.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.86221875,"end":163.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.49471875,"end":165.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.96284375000002,"end":167.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.08909375000002,"end":169.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.28284375,"end":172.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.60721875000002,"end":177.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.77096875,"end":179.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.34034375000002,"end":181.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.88846875000002,"end":185.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.22971875000002,"end":188.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.64284375000003,"end":189.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.62159375000002,"end":195.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.62471875,"end":200.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.65784375,"end":204.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.70346875,"end":217.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.74784375000002,"end":220.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.19471875000002,"end":222.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.65846875000003,"end":225.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.49784375000002,"end":227.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.02909375000002,"end":228.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.19346875000002,"end":230.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.57721875000001,"end":242.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.99721875,"end":243.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.38096875000002,"end":247.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.04284375,"end":249.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.81471875000003,"end":250.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.02971875000003,"end":253.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.50596875000002,"end":257.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.40409375,"end":260.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.13784375,"end":261.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.94784375,"end":262.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.70284375,"end":268.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.91721875,"end":271.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.81971875,"end":275.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.22409375,"end":277.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.67534375,"end":278.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.93659375000004,"end":281.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.50159375000004,"end":284.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.67846875000004,"end":289.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.11221875,"end":293.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.53346875,"end":295.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.54159375,"end":304.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.99596875000003,"end":306.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.11784375,"end":311.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.99909375000004,"end":313.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.80034375,"end":315.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.80846875000003,"end":321.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.27596875,"end":323.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.65534375000004,"end":328.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.35096875000005,"end":330.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.57409375000003,"end":336.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.97409375,"end":344.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.52971875000003,"end":346.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.50409375000004,"end":350.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.82846875,"end":352.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.56221875,"end":356.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.35909375,"end":360.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.54409375,"end":362.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.32034375,"end":363.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.85596875000005,"end":364.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.03721875,"end":367.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.93534375,"end":369.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.92659375000005,"end":375.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.59659375,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.26721875000004,"end":378.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.56659375000004,"end":381.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.42284375,"end":382.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.31284375,"end":384.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.06784375,"end":387.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.49784375,"end":389.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.67471875,"end":395.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.99409375000005,"end":399.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.17534375,"end":402.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.62221875,"end":414.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.04659375,"end":413.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.07159375000003,"end":422.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.76346875,"end":416.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.44659375000003,"end":424.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.23909375000005,"end":429.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.24221875,"end":437.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.01346875,"end":437.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.29159375,"end":445.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.81784375,"end":450.17159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.98659375000005,"end":446.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.01534375000006,"end":455.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.87534375,"end":457.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.91721875,"end":465.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.57909375,"end":462.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.96659375,"end":474.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.55721875,"end":467.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.38721875000005,"end":476.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.75409375000004,"end":476.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.20971875000004,"end":476.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.10409375,"end":478.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.04034375000003,"end":480.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.09909375,"end":484.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.60909375000006,"end":488.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.55784375,"end":493.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.13096875,"end":495.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.91971875,"end":499.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.73346875000004,"end":500.37471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.15096875,"end":501.60659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.04534375000003,"end":503.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.30659375000005,"end":510.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.93846875,"end":514.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.51159375,"end":518.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.62909375,"end":522.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.4765937500001,"end":524.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.40034375,"end":526.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.7122187500001,"end":530.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.59346875,"end":534.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.05284375,"end":538.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.44471875,"end":542.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.6928437500001,"end":544.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.92471875,"end":546.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.2703437499999,"end":549.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.6115937500001,"end":551.6240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.0290937500001,"end":553.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.0290937500001,"end":565.3772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.98471875,"end":568.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.66346875,"end":570.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.4522187499999,"end":573.1397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.89909375,"end":575.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.10971875,"end":577.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.50596875,"end":581.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.2522187500001,"end":583.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.7709687500001,"end":585.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.26846875,"end":588.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.7153437500001,"end":596.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.4228437500001,"end":600.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.57846875,"end":609.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.19721875,"end":610.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.3615937500001,"end":612.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.23471875,"end":614.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.76596875,"end":620.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.42346875,"end":622.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.4822187500001,"end":630.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.40909375,"end":633.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.5859687500001,"end":638.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.0534687500001,"end":639.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.0322187500001,"end":640.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.1628437500001,"end":643.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.63909375,"end":646.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.9509687500001,"end":648.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.72284375,"end":651.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.3003437500001,"end":654.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.0847187500001,"end":658.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.79721875,"end":662.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.2478437500001,"end":664.8047187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.751,"end":9.973,"text":"主席好首先有請我們農業部我們的陳部長我們請陳部長委員長部長好部長我自己請教你幾年出的47年次47年次好我這樣了解"},{"start":30.663,"end":54.755,"text":"那部長我每次在委員會的執行還有我們院會的總執行我一直強調苗栗縣一定要成立第一區反撲四萬區苗栗縣的土地裡面86%是山坡地我們受限到苗栗縣的這個喉嚨被鎖住的我告訴你一個實際的情形"},{"start":60.563,"end":89.155,"text":"苗栗的山坡地一甲地大概是一千五百萬到兩千萬說到拍拖地在土地台北市新北市大概買不到十坪到二十坪的房子啊你看這比例差了多少啊我也希望部長這開始對農民很不公平農民又分成兩種都市計劃"},{"start":91.271,"end":117.502,"text":"區裡面農地的農民都市計劃外一關農地的農民為什麼一樣的農地都市計劃內的農地可以濕地重挖他說不要承擔了糧食的安全跟外面的問題為什麼都市計劃外的農地要受到種種限制尤其苗栗縣的山坡地佔了86%"},{"start":119.844,"end":142.144,"text":"您知道嗎?你們在農挖條例以來,您條例學術在說,只要說山坡地保持安全,我告訴你們,現在北省太窮了,自己去的地方必須要照顧得好,不能發生問題。那主要為了一片的甲青溝,把農民的財產都把它降下來,"},{"start":143.905,"end":172.529,"text":"以前一甲地可以賣到三千多兩千多現在剩下一千五還沒有人要那是天道地的差別農民是客家宅散地國家宅散現在老農民在工作做什麼呢做健康的不是賺錢的自己農業部搞一個民主地所以我在這我要再三跟你強調我希望你跟我還有水寶石的跟我下去看"},{"start":173.649,"end":181.269,"text":"你看到的時候你覺得退出的時候就要到那個地方來治鳥語花香人間仙境"},{"start":182.912,"end":204.378,"text":"那因為開挖現在為什麼不給你們想其實裡面你有開挖包括你農地的耕種你甚至可以組織農耕隊裡面要大膽的改革啊我們要有行動也要有創新你的AI內閣像我山坡地86%都在那裡喊著要洗洗地啊"},{"start":205.728,"end":211.27,"text":"我現在要求一件事我比你年紀還大但是我永遠是行動我永遠敢於創新"},{"start":228.069,"end":241.237,"text":"我帶你來看我一定我們在苗栗縣政府裏面討論完我們山坡地要如何開發我要把苗栗縣的山坡地打造像日本輕型車一樣"},{"start":244.456,"end":259.944,"text":"來個試試也可以減低了很多都市人口的壓力年紀大的一點一點的人可以在苗栗縣來康養非常好觀念要改變因為苗栗縣有獨特的地方到台北市高鐵40分鐘台中18分鐘"},{"start":263.766,"end":273.574,"text":"到高雄那邊大概70幾分鐘而且苗栗縣的高鐵苗栗縣政府到苗栗縣每一個鄉鎮30分鐘就會到很緊張的很好一個地方"},{"start":279.96,"end":306.176,"text":"我再三提出來我覺得說我們做事情一定要大膽,我們要串心,我們要物盡其用,不是那麼白癡在那,滿山滿嶺以前種的水果都沒有人在摘啊,吹公吹得很動,年輕人也不想做,人家也要改變一個方式,旁邊要來支持我這個結尾,我帶你去看,我們把問題提出來,真的是好地方"},{"start":308.151,"end":330.176,"text":"我被你們農化條例限制變成垃圾我一定要活化阿免驚你給我們一個試驗地區由縣長來指導法案跟你們討論通過以後做一次給人家看這樣不像台灣的進步永遠你保守在那邊什麼的不能破壞我常常講"},{"start":331.618,"end":355.872,"text":"都市人禮拜一到禮拜五你們在這邊燈紅巧麗。禮拜五晚上到我們鄉下地方禮拜六禮拜天我們的青山綠水好山好水都在你鄉上。為什麼都市裡面的農地可以重劃?變為自宅區變為商業區?為什麼我們山坡地要特別受您規限?"},{"start":357.603,"end":366.352,"text":"現在施工幾乎沒有人在種：有時候你看到很悲哀：誰要去爬：要不要答應支持我這樣：我們兩個：還有水保局跟我去看：三個人"},{"start":383.356,"end":395.069,"text":"半天給你看到民間的力量有多偉大他創造一個美好的地方之後他們都實現大家人生要來修養安養的一個地方在"},{"start":403.997,"end":413.626,"text":"我記得委員在上次的總執行也有提到嘛那我那時候也承諾在我們的會期結束以後我一定會安排我的同仁好好的去看不要太多人"},{"start":415.778,"end":419.981,"text":"我舉個人去看一看當然你會瞭解很多地方 當初以前做了這個說明 可有辦法可能的"},{"start":438.919,"end":443.101,"text":"在我還要請給我們大家 還沒開發還沒進步 怎麼會這樣逐漸改變醫社啦 我跟委員報告 我們不能用農地的階段 不是只有"},{"start":451.072,"end":452.212,"text":"今天講到農業移工"},{"start":480.08,"end":503.169,"text":"啊現在狀況,失聯移工是佔了一個大部分那在流氓的時候看你部長夠不夠力你外來的移工現在從6000人到12000人條度的問題每一個農產品產的季節的問題都不一樣所以現在依我了解"},{"start":504.746,"end":530.247,"text":"這農民要叫台灣人來做,沒人什麼人要做,要去拜託,拜託到很沒民主的那些主力才是主力,我先插頭跟你講其實有時候我們要感謝他們,為什麼?那段的時間大家寧願錢高一點給他們,他們又出來做永遠你記得一個觀念,這些移工一進來他就是要賺錢"},{"start":531.813,"end":541.169,"text":"談了一段時間又給他賺錢他就會問一座台灣人做一半天就把你完成了我跟你講我碰到很多我在地方跑都會問這個問題"},{"start":543.732,"end":572.105,"text":"第二個關於移工要進來農會你們以農會系統我也支持但是我會講農會系統歷史有換款的單位當然也有輔導的單位比較關咬一點我講這句話也就是我們的農會但是我相信不會我是把實情告訴你因為我要替你解決問題我要把真的錢另外我碰到了幾個"},{"start":574.279,"end":599.439,"text":"農會的青年人不錯 像我們縣里農會 像我們的西湖農會 那些啊 青農不錯其實你真的在調用 那些農會 行動到緩慢 那些青年 青農都很多新的 不單更做 而且是地方有實力的 他認識的人很多 好好把持 這個是重要的裝潮"},{"start":600.7,"end":614.378,"text":"所以他們為了要服務將來他們要在地方發展的時候只要他的農民來拜託他他就會去幫他找解決問題快速好好的運用這個有效率的青龍"},{"start":615.816,"end":637.974,"text":"我看過我們縣裡的青龍真的很團結也真的在做事情西湖的也不錯每一個地方的青龍培養出來不一樣我覺得你用這樣的青龍他有你農業各方面的人在那一邊他們還用的速度很快調整人力好好指揮給他們去應用一下可能非常快"},{"start":639.29,"end":661.92,"text":"當然未來我們CPTPP進來我們會更到 農業會更到更大的麻煩現在因應好 外來是來是我們以後農業的主力 現在沒有人要做 我只是跟你講而且收穫也不高 只維護他的土地 哎呀啦 我要去做什麼 只有做健康的啦"}]}},{"id":"154354","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154354","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c2ed70a3c1a8c60dd21a3f23b3ad13ea2b8981cfbc017771bab3a0f130147b6495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:27:56 - 10:36:51","影片長度":"00:08:55","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:27:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:36:51+08:00","duration":535,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":509,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時28分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，我國經濟從農業社會一直轉型到工業社會，到現在以科技產業供應鏈為支柱，尤其要提升國際競爭力，我們看到產業的轉型與民眾的觀念，以及少子化的危機，加重了農村地區人口老化及世代斷層，所以這些都是目前臺灣農村最真實的樣貌。經過農業部的統計，現在農民平均年齡也到達68歲，所以在2019年……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，不是，那是農保。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，農保。所以2019年引進農業移工，有這個需要嘛！從最早的800人到現在1萬2,000人，剛剛部長在報告的時候也特別講到，目前移工的申請到了8,500人，到年底就會到1萬2,000人，那你知道這個缺口還要有8,000人，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：那這8,000人的話，你知道要分配到哪裡嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：比如說，像農糧部分目前是4,000人，畜牧業的話是4,000人，還有外展人員是3,000人，養殖業800人，林業的200人，未來增加的8,000人，你有規劃、有去做市場調查嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們8,000人就是從市場調查裡面得到的。"],["呂委員玉玲：目前8,000人會怎麼分配？"],["陳部長駿季：大概還是會在農糧為主，然後有一部分是畜牧，還有一個很重要就是外展，因為外展我們現在開放可以跨區移動，未來這種缺工情形可能會靠外展。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以部長都瞭解問題，外展農務的話，最重要是怎麼支援，就是因為很多是季節性採收期的農忙需要的臨時工嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：你也特別提到，一般的收割期大概是從南部一直到北部，所以可以跨區支援做人力的調配，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：但是你有沒有發現一個問題？人力到這邊來的時候整個吃住的管理問題，所以目前申請外展人員都是用農會的外展農務，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以農會的申請，你知道實際上務實在申請的都是調配在哪裡使用嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，過往外展的部分都在當區，因為牽涉到交通跟住宿的問題，跨區的部分，我們現在開始有試辦，我們會去看試辦裡面他們真正需要協助的地方，特別是包括交通還有一部分的住宿，我舉個例子，像果樹……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你還是沒有去瞭解務實的問題，你有問到每一個農會他們在申請的人員，比如說大的農會，比如板橋或者臺北好了，大的農會人員很多，現在配比是50%、1比1，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：大農會人員當然多，它申請的人多，但是實際上下去農耕的人卻不需要那麼多，因為這樣的農會實際在做的業務就是存放款比較多嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：它是都會區的農會。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以以農村來講，它雖然是小農會，可能員額大概是20人、十幾個人，但是它的農地非常地大。所以在這邊要提醒部長，外展人員跟配比的問題，就需要依照農地的大小，讓大農地申請外展人員，而不是以農會的員額多少來申請，這樣的話就不夠務實了，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：分為兩個層次，第一個層次是核配比的部分，我們現在全國是一致性的，只是本籍跟外籍的部分核配比不一樣。剛才委員所提用農地的部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：意思是小農會，比如說……"],["陳部長駿季：現在還有合作社也可以，所以我們會針對那一區，如果農會人力不夠的時候，我們會協助他，用合作社的方式還可以去申請，所以我們會儘量朝這個來努力，因為農地……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你剛剛有提到一個問題，你說移工進來會有吃住的問題要管理，而農會沒辦法成立一個住宿的地方管理他們，所以人員還是會調配到外面去。所以在這部分，我們要看農地的大小，才是務實的作法，比如說小農地的農民，有1、2公頃的農地，他們倆夫妻的工作，但是在收割期需要大量的人力，就必須要有臨時工，這就必須要調配。所以有的地方如果沒有像部長您所講的有46個團、1,500人的農務人力團，它需要的人力就必須要在當地，比如我們桃園就有青農，他就可以成立合作社，你補助他機械化的農機具，他可以來協助幫忙。","但是部長你有沒有瞭解到？農忙的時候大家都忙，都在搶人，比如我們桃園比較多是水稻，或是茶葉、或是有機蔬菜，忙的時候都一樣，有機蔬菜是每天在忙；可是茶葉是一次性的；水稻是一年兩次性、三次性，就是農民休閒的時間會有空檔在這邊，所以這樣的情形，他們要怎麼去管理外展人員？"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們才會提到外展可以跨區來支援，以桃園地區來講，很多像蔬菜類的部分，我們會加強它的農事服務的代耕系統，這樣人力就可以往別的地方走。"],["呂委員玉玲：我請部長你再務實去瞭解，跨區的支援還是不足，當地的、在地的支援會比較好。"],["陳部長駿季：對，當地的話，我想我們會更鼓勵合作社的部分，因為你成立合作社，還是可以去申請這個部分。剛才委員提到以農地為計算標準，我們會來思考……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們研議一下，用比例原則。"],["陳部長駿季：我們也會跟勞動部來討論，因為……"],["呂委員玉玲：比如說它的行員多，所以它申請得多，但是很多都沒有申請足額，為什麼？因為它沒有需要這麼多的耕作，這些農會實際的業務可能不是農耕，而是在銀行作業的部分。"],["陳部長駿季：這個我瞭解，但是因為勞動部這邊對於核配比有一致性的原則，這個已經超脫它的一致性原則，用本國跟……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以務實去瞭解實際的問題，來解決問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我們再研議，再跟勞動部來溝通。"],["呂委員玉玲：還有因為我們的農耕是比較曝曬在戶外、要曬太陽，而且也比較辛苦，所以移工失聯的也比較多，部長有沒有發現這個問題？"],["陳部長駿季：大概是12.14%。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以要怎麼防範呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想要先去考慮，會逃逸的部分可能就是因為本身的適應性不夠，而且農業的這些特殊性部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：農業跟其他的工業不一樣嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對。然後因為移工有互相聯絡的關係，他都會跑往比較輕鬆的工作，在COVID-19的時候比較嚴重，現在已經比較回穩了。"],["呂委員玉玲：沒有，現在全臺灣的失聯移工、逃逸移工大概有7萬人。所以要再提醒部長的是，耕地比較小的農民如果沒辦法申請到移工，他們有可能就會用這些失聯移工，這些都是管理的問題，所以部長要深入去研究，研議怎麼去防範這些問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是，這個我們瞭解，我們會想辦法去解決這個問題。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來我想請問部長，因為台電有說未來對於農漁業的電費不補助了，那你們這邊有沒有要補助這個部分的電費？"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經納入農業部的預算，大概是19億。"],["呂委員玉玲：農漁業的電費補助大概是多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：19億、18.9億。"],["呂委員玉玲：它也是18.9億？"],["陳部長駿季：也是要錢啊！"],["呂委員玉玲：不是，因為我知道總共42億嘛，教育19億，農漁也占了19億喔？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我記得是18.9億。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，那你會補足嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：一定要補足啊！我們已經編列預算了。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，那就不要把這個成本轉嫁到農民……"],["陳部長駿季：不會、不會，我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在農民的成本已經很高了啦，已經慢慢在衰退了，如果再負擔更多的成本，他們會受不了。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我跟委員報告，電價的六大項我們會去支撐，不會調漲，差額的部分是由農業部編列預算去補它。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你會編預算全額補足進去？"],["陳部長駿季：對，全額補足。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長駿季：不是全額免費喔！就是那個差額。"],["呂委員玉玲：你要補助這部分啦，就是19億的部分把它補進去，不會跟農民收取啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請陳超明委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.48659375000000005,"end":1.7522187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":3.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.02971875,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.41284375,"end":14.189093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.95659375,"end":17.496593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.024093750000002,"end":17.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.95221875,"end":18.340343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.96471875,"end":54.165968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.22534375,"end":54.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.52034375,"end":54.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.63846875,"end":55.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.752218750000004,"end":81.08159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.595968750000004,"end":56.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.78034375,"end":65.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.21346875,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.74471875,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.52034375000001,"end":82.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.73971875000001,"end":96.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.00471875000001,"end":87.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.33721875,"end":92.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.25659375000001,"end":95.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.69096875000001,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.49221875,"end":101.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.92659375000001,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.65909375000001,"end":111.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.31284375000001,"end":114.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.25784375,"end":115.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.29159375,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.36721875,"end":139.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.04971875000001,"end":123.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.05346875000001,"end":126.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.86284375,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.95096875000002,"end":134.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.59971875000002,"end":152.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.03659375,"end":156.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.79971875,"end":174.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.38784375,"end":182.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.25971875000002,"end":227.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.62409375000001,"end":202.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.60721875000002,"end":227.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.70846875,"end":227.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.80971875,"end":240.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.10721875000002,"end":243.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.14096875,"end":241.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.55846875,"end":249.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.67971875,"end":258.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.91909375,"end":265.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.80846875000003,"end":263.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.76159375000003,"end":316.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.37721875,"end":268.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.47846875,"end":268.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.98284375000003,"end":308.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.91471875,"end":312.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.85909375,"end":317.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.85471875,"end":318.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.17534375,"end":335.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.53534375000004,"end":340.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.48409375,"end":342.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.49221875,"end":355.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.11909375000005,"end":362.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.40471875000003,"end":379.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.61784375,"end":378.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.38534375,"end":379.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.70159375000003,"end":380.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.27534375000005,"end":380.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.66346875000005,"end":383.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.25784375,"end":393.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.25721875000005,"end":388.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.94034375,"end":403.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.71534375000005,"end":402.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.73159375,"end":413.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.03034375000004,"end":409.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.22846875000005,"end":410.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.55284375,"end":414.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.27846875,"end":415.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.74659375000005,"end":420.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.69096875,"end":421.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.99034375,"end":425.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.53409375,"end":437.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.47846875000005,"end":432.45284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.22409375,"end":440.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.73846875000004,"end":475.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.19346875,"end":445.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.63034375,"end":458.22096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.50346875,"end":459.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.39346875,"end":463.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.12721875000005,"end":464.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.85534375000003,"end":478.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.49221875,"end":481.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.66471875,"end":481.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.69409375000004,"end":482.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.38159375000004,"end":483.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.39846875,"end":483.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.97221875,"end":484.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.68096875000003,"end":484.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.62596875,"end":488.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.38096875,"end":487.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.83659375,"end":495.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.98721875,"end":496.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.13909375000003,"end":498.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.77596875,"end":497.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.50159375000004,"end":498.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.61971875,"end":498.65346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.65346875000006,"end":498.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.67034375000003,"end":498.72096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.72096875000005,"end":499.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.02471875000003,"end":499.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.76721875000004,"end":502.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.28596875000005,"end":510.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.68221875000006,"end":504.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.58471875000004,"end":508.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.84596875000005,"end":520.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.6459687500001,"end":523.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.3884687500001,"end":522.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.95346875,"end":526.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.3034687500001,"end":527.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.74596875,"end":527.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.9653437500001,"end":527.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.9822187500001,"end":528.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.04971875,"end":530.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.06659375,"end":528.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.30659375,"end":531.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.4709687500001,"end":535.52534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.756,"end":9.31,"text":"來接下來我們請呂玉玲委員請做巡檔謝謝主席請陳部長再請陳部長"},{"start":17.961,"end":39.495,"text":"部長,我國的經濟從農業社會一直轉型到工業社會到現在的以科技的產業供應鏈為支柱尤其要提升我們國際的競爭力我們看到產業的轉型跟民眾的觀念以及少子化的危機加重了我們農村地區的人口的老化跟世代的斷層"},{"start":40.316,"end":40.496,"text":"那是農保喔?"},{"start":40.496,"end":40.837,"text":"那是農保的?"},{"start":57.176,"end":75.081,"text":"所以現在2019年引進了這個農業的移工有這個需要吧從最早的800人到現在12000人剛剛部長在報告的時候也特別講到目前現在移工的申請到了8500人到年底就會到12000人那你知道這個缺口還要有8000人對不對那這8000人的話你知道要分配的到哪裡嗎"},{"start":81.582,"end":87.485,"text":"您說像我們農糧部分目前是4000續牧業的話是4000人還有我們的外產人員是3000人跟我們養殖業800跟林業的200那你未來增加的這8000人你有規劃你有去做市場調查嗎對我們那個8000人就是從市場調查裡面得到的目前8000人會怎麼分配對大概還是會在農糧為主然後有一部分是續牧"},{"start":106.315,"end":134.997,"text":"還有一個很重要的就是外展因為外展我們現在開放可以跨區移動那未來的這種缺工的情形可能會靠外展部長都了解了問題外展這個農務的話最重要是怎麼支援就是很多的因為是季節性的採收期的農忙需要的臨時工嘛對不對那你也特別提到說這一般的收割期大概從南部一直到北部所以可以跨區來支援做人力的調配對不對但是你有沒有發現一個問題"},{"start":136.118,"end":137.298,"text":"我跟委員說明,就是過往這個"},{"start":156.86,"end":157.04,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":183.488,"end":201.586,"text":"現在大的農會比如說板橋好了或者台北好了他大的農會人員很多你現在配比是50%1比1對不對他的農會的話大農會人員當然多他申請的人多但是實際上下去農耕的人卻不需要那麼多因為他的農會實際在做的就是存放款的業務比較多嘛所以"},{"start":202.927,"end":227.284,"text":"在農村來講話他雖然是小農會可能他的行業裡面大概緣額大概20人10幾個人但是他的那個農地非常的大所以在這邊提醒部長就是你的外展人員跟你配比的問題你就需要依照農地的大小以大農地來申請這個外展人員而不是農會的大小的緣額來申請這樣子的話就不夠物質了是不是"},{"start":228.064,"end":247.881,"text":"我講分為兩個層次齁第一個層次是合配比的部分齁我們現在是全國一次性的只是合配比不一樣齁它的一個本級跟外級的部分那剛才委員所提的用農地的部分齁不是你說小農會對比如說巷份我們現在還有合作社也可以合作社所以我們會針對那一區那一區如果說農會如果"},{"start":249.762,"end":257.428,"text":"的人力的不夠的時候我們會協助他用合作的方式還可以去申請所以我們會盡量朝這個努力因為農地資會不大"},{"start":265.894,"end":265.914,"text":"﹚呂玲"},{"start":284.608,"end":308.724,"text":"他可能兩夫妻的工作但是他在收割期的話需要大量的人力就必須要有臨時工這就必須要調配所以有的地方如果沒有像部長您所講的有46個團的人力1500人的這個農務的人力團的話他需要的人力就必須要在當地當地的話比如我們桃園的話就青農青農的話他就可以成立合作社你補助他這個機械化的農機具的話他可以來協助幫忙"},{"start":312.346,"end":332.503,"text":"但是部長你有沒有了解到農忙的時候大家都忙都在搶人比如我們桃園的話比較多的是水稻或者是我們茶葉或者是我們的有機蔬菜忙的時候都一樣有機蔬菜是每天在忙可是如果說茶葉一次性的水稻一年兩次性三次性就是把這個農民休閒的時間會空擋在這邊"},{"start":336.624,"end":353.013,"text":"所以這樣者情形的話他們要怎麼去管理外省人員呢?所以我才會我們才會提到這個那個外長可以跨區來支援那以桃園地區來講的話我們會加強因為很多像蔬菜類的部分有沒有我們會加強他的農事服務的代更系統"},{"start":354.754,"end":376.353,"text":"我還請部長你再務其了解,跨區的資源還是不足在當地的在地的資源會來得比較好?對,那當地的話我想我們會更鼓勵一些合作社的部分因為你成立合作社還是可以去請這樣的部分因為剛才委員提到用農地為計算標準去我們會來思考,但是我們也會跟勞動部來討論"},{"start":379.736,"end":386.06,"text":"對我了解我了解但是因為勞動部這邊對於核配比有一致性的原則啦那這個已經超多他的一致性原則用本國跟所以務實去了解實際的問題在研究以後跟勞動部來溝通"},{"start":403.952,"end":414.679,"text":"還有就是因為我們的農耕是比較曝曬在戶外曬太陽而且比較辛苦所以這移工失聯的也比較多部長有沒有發現這個問題?我們大概是12點14所以要怎麼防範呢?"},{"start":420.923,"end":436.85,"text":"我想要先去考慮說會去逃逸的部分可能就是因為你本身的適應性不夠而且農業的這些特殊性的部分農業跟其他的工業不一樣然後因為移工有互相聯絡的關係他都會跑往比較輕鬆的在COVID-19的時候"},{"start":438.351,"end":438.731,"text":"接下來請問部長一下"},{"start":465.902,"end":478.496,"text":"因為台電有說未來他對於農漁業的這個電費已經不補助了那我們這邊有沒有要補助這個電費的補助我們已經納入我們農業部的預算大概19億你現在大概農漁業的話的電費補助大概多少錢19億18.9億他也是18.9億"},{"start":486.057,"end":486.218,"text":"我記得是18.9億"},{"start":499.77,"end":518.302,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":518.402,"end":519.163,"text":"接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做巡檔"}]}},{"id":"154352","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154352","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726cce6bac5a699351ec4b539dbd63c1cc91b8981cfbc017771b1db97a0ba832a5a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:24:05 - 10:33:54","影片長度":"00:09:49","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:24:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:33:54+08:00","duration":589,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":312,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時24分）謝謝主席。麻煩部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：早。"],["王委員定宇：外交總是充滿困難的，我們常常是希望給外交人員，不管在國外或國內，都給予最大的支持跟鼓勵，但是一旦有了黑函、有了醜聞、有了這樣的傳聞，不管是否為真，對於該駐館工作的執行、人員的士氣，都有相當大的影響。所以本席期待部長對於相關的傳聞，甚至於有時候臨時問你，你根本沒辦法辨別真假，像我剛才聽到，我不認為現在年輕的外交官可以被處長、館長叫去坐在電腦前面，盯著那個螢幕不准開機，現在公務員也不容許這樣被對待，所以是否為真要儘速有個答案，哪怕是在半夜都應該有答案，而不是在回答的時候說我們再來瞭解看看，因為一旦傳聞被傳，後面雖證明不是真的，傷害都已造成，更何況外交人員代表的是我們國家的門面。美國駐處是我們臺灣最重要的外交單位，本席希望這個真相不要拖過24個小時，儘速有個答案，比方說他要換車，後來看起來是沒有嘛！他自己的車沒有要換，他希望有個車，這些東西都可以條列出來是否允當，我們也不是要求我們駐外人員每個人都要有補丁，要過得清苦……因為他們是代表國家的門面，就像國外的外國大使駐在臺灣，他們要求的館舍大概都是帝寶等級的，這都一定是代表國家顏面，所以在合宜合理的範圍內，我覺得部長你們應該就這樣的傳聞儘速釐清，否則每次有人事異動，像是部長換了，我們就會收到一疊信，以往當然有的是真的，像秦日新那個就真的嘛！發生那個事情該怎麼處分就該怎麼處分，所以不要包庇、不要護短，但是牽涉到國家外交事務，特別美國現在在總統大選，美臺關係現在特別重要，在這樣的狀況下，美處的事情就不容許這樣延燒，我不曉得部長你從美處發生這樣的事情到目前為止，所有的傳聞你們到底掌握了多少？"],["林部長佳龍：各方的意見我都有收到，首先就是採購的部分，我們把它釐清，管理的部分……"],["王委員定宇：採購有沒有如同傳聞或者報導的那個狀況？"],["林部長佳龍：外面講說800萬嘛！我今天早上也有跟記者說明，扣掉了那些硬體，就是備用的發電機，事實上上半年整個採購的財產就是大概7萬美金左右。"],["王委員定宇：7萬美金？"],["林部長佳龍：所以兩百多萬臺幣嘛！"],["王委員定宇：那這7萬美金，就你們外交部的判斷是否合宜、合理、合法？"],["林部長佳龍：應該是在我們……"],["王委員定宇：規範的範圍內還外？"],["林部長佳龍：之所以核可它，就是它是合乎規範的。"],["王委員定宇：部長也好，或者我們北美司，拜託一下，這個事情應該是一個明確的東西，有不當，該怎麼處理就怎麼處理嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：我也不認為現在有哪個官大到可以非他不可，但是如果沒有不當也應該要明確，否則這樣在外，裡面這樣放火燒，對國家不是好事，我在意的不是一個個人或一個外交官，而是這個事情處理的態度，外交部應該要清楚、明瞭而迅速。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員說明，我們掌握到的就是因為外館有人不滿才提供了這個資料，也給委員，後來也給媒體，這是另外一部分，內部的領導、管理的問題，但是我認為已經發生了，我們就要來處理。"],["王委員定宇：部長，人的不滿，現代社會都會有啦！寫信很方便，手機就可以寫，但我的意思是說，站在外交部，他作為國家的門面，你應該去思考的是他所傳出來的事情，第一個，有沒有涉及不法？沒有就說沒有，有的話就移送法辦；再來，有沒有合於我們長年、數十年累積的外交規範跟禮儀？也有，那就說清楚；最後，有沒有涉及私德不當的？如果這三個都沒有，只是說我感受到覺得你對我不禮貌，那個就讓社會來公評，而不是說大家不能講，可以講，但是前面這三塊很重要，因為這三塊如果回答得支支吾吾、不清不楚的話，我坦白講，其他的館處也可以有樣學樣，那我們臺灣的外交已經這麼辛苦的狀態下還能做事嗎？你懂我意思嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，所以委員我在第一次回應外界就說這個事情沒有不法，係依照採購的規定，但是不是有它的必要性跟合理性，這就要依項目去討論。"],["王委員定宇：這一點我現在沒有定見、答案，因為我沒有看到資訊，我只能建議部長，在最快的時間內，不要再過了24小時了，很清楚地就法律規定，就一般外交的禮儀規範，以及就私德的部分這三塊有或沒有來做釐清，現在24小時都可以通電話了，這樣子讓國人知道這可能是人跟人的相處或者人事問題或者怎麼樣，講的人就講，有個價值判斷而已，但至少這三塊有沒有，清清楚楚，這要儘快啦！好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["王委員定宇：我接下來請教我們跟梵蒂岡的問題，梵蒂岡現在是我們在歐洲唯一也是重要的外交關係，教廷國跟中國之間在這一任的教宗，他一直希望他有個歷史成就、歷史定位，也就是照顧中國教區的信徒，我們對這沒意見，天主教有它神權國家的概念，中國、中共一直是無神論國家，中共的主教叫做愛國主教、愛國神職人員，都要它來任命，所以一直有牴觸下，臺灣跟梵蒂岡的邦交相對穩定，但從這一任教宗在前幾年，由香港的主教向臺灣提出警告，我們就一直在密切注意這個事情了。這幾天，中共的官媒環球網很罕見地報導了兩件事情，一個是承認梵蒂岡任命杭州主教作標題，等於是承認它任命主教；第二個是梵蒂岡希望在中國設立常設辦事處，就這個消息，因為環球網我常看到假消息，所以我第一個要請教外交部或者我們歐洲司長，這個報導是否為真？第二個、我們跟教廷國目前的邦交狀況為何，是不是請回答？"],["黃司長鈞耀：有關於這個報導，兩個部分，第一個部分就是教廷他任命了這個主教……"],["王委員定宇：杭州主教。"],["黃司長鈞耀：杭州主教，這件事情是為真。"],["王委員定宇：這是真的，所以中國讓教廷國可以派主教了？"],["黃司長鈞耀：不是，因為他們有一個臨時的主教任命協議，他們是依據他們的臨時主教任命協議，由雙方協調的結果，事實上中國在這個過程中也扮演他們自己的角色。"],["王委員定宇：因為教廷國長期以來是認為任命主教權是神權，不能有協調的過程。"],["黃司長鈞耀：對，但是……"],["王委員定宇：所以杭州這個主教是經過協調任命出來的？"],["黃司長鈞耀：這個是依據他們現在已經應該是第5年或第6年……"],["王委員定宇：有一個臨時協議嘛！"],["黃司長鈞耀：對，有一個臨時協議。"],["王委員定宇：好，教廷希望在那邊有一個辦事處……"],["黃司長鈞耀：越南也是有類似的處理方法。"],["王委員定宇：對啊，教廷希望在中國設辦事處這個事情……"],["黃司長鈞耀：這件事情教廷已經說了非常多次，但是依據教廷的說法，中國一直在這個問題上沒有意願讓步，因為如果是有這個代表，那是教宗的代表，但是中國是一個無神論的國家。"],["王委員定宇：我時間到了，我最後請教我們現在跟教廷國的邦交狀況？"],["黃司長鈞耀：基本上我們跟教廷的邦交是穩固，譬如說在520總統就職的時候，教廷也派遣了特使……"],["王委員定宇：你們現在還有沒有在用燈號標示？"],["黃司長鈞耀：有。"],["王委員定宇：它現在是什麼燈？"],["黃司長鈞耀：這部分好像是機密，我可以跟委員再另行報告。"],["王委員定宇：機密我尊重，坦白講，我們對於每個國家，沒有一個局勢是可以樂觀的，很多蛛絲馬跡還是要注意，好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。目前我們收到臨時提案共2案，待會黃國昌委員質詢結束以後進行處理，處理完畢休息5分鐘。現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.52846875,"end":4.806593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.262218750000001,"end":5.9372187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.78409375,"end":25.191593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.832843750000002,"end":27.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.07721875,"end":29.089718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.680343750000002,"end":32.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.15659375,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.06784375,"end":36.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.071593750000005,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.492843750000006,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.032843750000005,"end":42.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.16346875,"end":44.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.61471875,"end":46.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.68596875,"end":51.854093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.174718750000004,"end":54.891593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.44846875,"end":59.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.32534375,"end":73.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.24721875,"end":76.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.21721875,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.12346875,"end":87.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.89909375,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.66659375,"end":92.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.14721875000001,"end":102.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.36096875000001,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.06034375,"end":109.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.10659375,"end":116.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.53596875000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.77971875,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.43784375000001,"end":128.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.59721875,"end":131.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.65159375000002,"end":136.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.95471875,"end":150.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.75846875000002,"end":162.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.12784375,"end":165.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.41846875000002,"end":166.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.43534375000002,"end":166.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.37596875,"end":169.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.82721875000001,"end":171.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.05471875,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.53534375,"end":178.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.68659375000001,"end":182.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.05721875,"end":194.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.86971875,"end":199.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.42159375,"end":201.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.63659375,"end":204.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.27784375000002,"end":205.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.29409375,"end":207.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.79596875000001,"end":209.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.02784375000002,"end":209.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.14596875,"end":209.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.19659375,"end":209.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.43284375000002,"end":209.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.48346875000001,"end":210.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.06971875000002,"end":217.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.97159375,"end":221.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.08971875,"end":218.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.95409375000003,"end":223.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.31659375,"end":224.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.31221875000003,"end":226.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.53971875000002,"end":229.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.13846875000002,"end":230.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.16784375,"end":232.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.24346875,"end":234.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.93096875,"end":235.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.02784375000002,"end":236.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.47909375,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.36909375000002,"end":247.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.03034375000001,"end":248.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.15659375,"end":252.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.20721875,"end":249.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.70034375000003,"end":254.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.21471875,"end":257.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.49284375,"end":263.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.46659375,"end":267.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.44534375,"end":264.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.16659375,"end":267.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.39846875,"end":267.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.97221875,"end":268.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.17471875,"end":268.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.30971875,"end":271.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.21221875000003,"end":271.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.51596875,"end":279.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.81846875,"end":283.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.17221875,"end":289.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.43721875,"end":292.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.89659375,"end":295.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.76971875000004,"end":294.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.32221875000005,"end":300.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.91221875,"end":302.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.05534375,"end":304.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.06346875,"end":309.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.15971875,"end":310.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.88096875,"end":312.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.36596875000004,"end":314.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.34034375000005,"end":318.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.55909375000005,"end":320.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.38596875,"end":320.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.17909375,"end":321.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.19596875,"end":335.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.68784375,"end":343.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.69034375,"end":368.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.82971875000004,"end":372.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.46221875000003,"end":375.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.97221875,"end":376.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.68096875000003,"end":377.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.48659375,"end":391.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.51409375000003,"end":393.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.18034375,"end":416.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.78846875000005,"end":418.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.42534375,"end":420.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.26909375,"end":424.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.63971875000004,"end":433.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.97159375,"end":435.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.68846875,"end":437.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.19034375,"end":438.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.75971875000005,"end":442.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.13471875000005,"end":443.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.13034375,"end":445.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.25659375000004,"end":451.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.63971875000004,"end":453.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.68159375000005,"end":458.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.40221875000003,"end":460.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.56659375000004,"end":460.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.65096875,"end":461.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.20784375000005,"end":461.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.03471875,"end":467.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.75534375,"end":468.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.58221875000004,"end":470.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.95721875000004,"end":480.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.65659375,"end":482.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.67284375,"end":502.41659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.77534375000005,"end":503.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.74971875000006,"end":508.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.16659375000006,"end":512.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.30159375000005,"end":510.49971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.96346875,"end":523.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.7265937500001,"end":517.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.32534375,"end":522.0928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.4428437500001,"end":526.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.66596875,"end":532.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.80846875,"end":541.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.4990937499999,"end":546.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.15221875,"end":551.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.4509687500001,"end":562.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.8503437500001,"end":563.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.3984687500001,"end":564.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.4153437500001,"end":566.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.86221875,"end":571.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.3428437499999,"end":580.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.80659375,"end":572.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.6497187500001,"end":576.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.73409375,"end":576.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.83534375,"end":576.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.85221875,"end":577.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.50159375,"end":580.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.2609687500001,"end":580.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.5815937500001,"end":580.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.07096875,"end":581.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.4084687500001,"end":582.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":582.16784375,"end":582.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.88909375,"end":584.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.0659687500001,"end":588.6140937499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.335,"end":27.074,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩部長請部長外交總是充滿困難的我們常常是希望給我們外交人員不管在國外或國內都給予最大的支持跟鼓勵但是一旦有了黑函"},{"start":28.14,"end":40.234,"text":"有了醜聞：有了這樣的傳聞：不管是否為真：對於該住管的工作的執行：人員的士氣都有相當大的影響"},{"start":42.205,"end":58.892,"text":"所以本期期待部長對於相關的傳聞甚至於有時候臨時問你你根本沒辦法辨別真假像我剛才聽到我不認為現在年輕的外交官可以被處長館長叫去坐在電腦前面盯著那個螢幕不准開機"},{"start":61.253,"end":89.525,"text":"這個現在公務員也不容許這樣子對待所以是否為真要儘速有個答案哪怕半夜都應該有答案而不是在回答說這個我們來了解看看因為一旦傳聞被傳後面證明不是真的傷害都已造成更何況外交人員代表是我們國家的門面所以有關美國住處這是我們台灣最重要的外交單位那這個真相本其實希望"},{"start":90.714,"end":91.157,"text":"不要再拖過24個小時"},{"start":93.148,"end":93.768,"text":"所以在合宜合理的範圍內"},{"start":123.57,"end":135.656,"text":"部長我覺得你們應該就這樣的傳聞盡速釐清否則每次有人事異動每次有人事的這個將部長換了下面這些我們就會收到一疊信"},{"start":137.548,"end":164.836,"text":"那以往當然有的有的真的像秦日新那個就真的嘛秦日新那是真的那發生那個事情該怎麼處分就該怎麼處分所以不要包庇不要護短但是牽涉到國家外交事務特別美國現在總統大選特別台美關係現在是重要的關係在這樣狀況下美促的事情就不容許這樣延燒我不曉得部長你從美促發生這樣的事情到目前為止所有的傳聞你們到底掌握多少"},{"start":168.445,"end":168.689,"text":"這件事"},{"start":169.878,"end":196.456,"text":"各方的意見我都有收到首先就是說採購的部分我們把它釐清管理的部分採購有沒有如同傳聞的或者報導的那個狀況所以外面講說800萬我今天早上在記者也有說明就是說扣掉了那些硬體就是備用的發電機事實上上半年整個這些採購的財產就是大概"},{"start":200.478,"end":202.28,"text":"這個事情應該是一個明確的東西有不當該怎麼處理就怎麼處理嘛"},{"start":227.791,"end":253.585,"text":"對我也不認為現在有哪個官大到可以非他不可但是如果沒有不當也應該要明確否則這樣在外裡面這樣放火燒對國家不是好事我在意的不是一個個人或一個外交官而是這個事情處理的態度外交部應該要清楚明瞭而迅速我跟委員說明因為我們所掌握到就是因為外管有人"},{"start":255.285,"end":283.301,"text":"人的不滿提供了這個資料那也給委員然後來也給媒體這是另外一部分內部的領導管理的問題但是我說就已經發生了我們就要來處理人的不滿現代社會都會有啦社會做方便的啦手機都可以寫嘛但我的意思說站在外交部作為國家的門面你應該去思考是他所傳出來的事情第一個有沒有涉及不法沒有就說沒有有的話就依從法辦"},{"start":284.241,"end":310.534,"text":"再來有沒有合於我們長年數十年累積的外交的規範跟禮儀也有那就說清楚最後有沒有涉及私德不當的那如果這三個都沒有那只是說我感受到覺得你對我不禮貌那個就讓社會來公平而不是說大家不能講可以講但是前面這三塊很重要因為這三塊如果回答的置之烏烏不清不楚的話我坦白講"},{"start":311.966,"end":314.267,"text":"所以委員我在第一次回應外界就是說這個事情沒有步伐"},{"start":327.403,"end":351.988,"text":"那依照採購的規定但是是不是有它的必要性跟合理性這就要項目去討論這一題我現在沒有定見答應我沒有看到資訊我只能建議部長在最快的時間內不要再過20小時了很清楚的就法律規定就外交的我們一般的禮儀規範以及就施責的部分這三塊有或沒有能夠釐清現在24小時都可以通電話了"},{"start":353.268,"end":354.99,"text":"范帝剛現在是我們在歐洲齁大概唯一也是重要的外交關係那教廷國"},{"start":378.547,"end":393.415,"text":"跟中國之間在這一任的教宗他一直希望他有個歷史成就歷史定位也就是照顧中國教區的信徒我們對這沒意見天主教有他的這個他的神權國家的一個概念"},{"start":394.255,"end":417.891,"text":"那中國呢中共一直他是無神論國家所以中共那邊的主教叫做愛國主教愛國神職人員都要他來任命所以一直有抵觸下所以台灣跟范帝剛的邦交呢相對起來是一個穩定但從這一任教宗在前幾年由香港的主教向台灣提出警告我們就一直在密切注意這個事情了這幾天"},{"start":419.522,"end":445.147,"text":"在中共的官媒環球網很罕見的報導了兩件事情一個是承認梵蒂岡任命杭州主教做標題等於是承認他任命主教第二個是梵蒂岡希望在中國設立常設辦事處就這個消息因為"},{"start":446.274,"end":447.735,"text":"有關於這個報導兩個部分第一個部分就是教廷他"},{"start":473.276,"end":482.031,"text":"他任命這個主教杭州主教這件事情是為真這是真的所以中國讓教廷國可以派主教"},{"start":482.728,"end":483.308,"text":"因為教廷國"},{"start":504.131,"end":511.28,"text":"長期以來是認為任命主教權是神權不能有協調的過程對 但是他們跟所以常說這個主教是經過協調任命出來的"},{"start":513.676,"end":540.695,"text":"這個是他們依據他們現在已經應該是第5年或第6年有一個臨時協議那他們跟越南也是有類似的處理方法教廷希望在中國設辦事處這件事情教廷已經說了非常多次但是中國依據教廷的說法中國一直在這個問題上他並沒有願意讓步因為教宗"},{"start":541.596,"end":545.8,"text":"我們現在跟教廷國的邦交狀況?我們跟教廷國的邦交基本上是穩固比如說在520總統就職的時候教廷也派遣了特使你現在還在用燈號標示啊?有他現在是什麼燈?"},{"start":567.449,"end":569.611,"text":"這部分好像是機密,我可以跟委員進行報告。"}]}},{"id":"154351","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154351","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c1660dcdfdb0d414c21a3f23b3ad13ea2b8981cfbc017771bd3a823a3a41615605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:16:46 - 10:27:47","影片長度":"00:11:01","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:16:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:27:47+08:00","duration":661,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":448,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時16分）謝謝主席，我想要請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長早，我看到你們的報告當中，相信你也已經瞭解，以我們現在農業的勞動人口來講，其實50歲以上的勞動人口都算是年輕，是不是？以農業來說，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：平均是53歲，我先提供一個數據，目前主計總處的調查是50.9萬，其中大於65歲的才11%，換句話說，65歲以下的大概占90%左右。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那50歲以上的呢？"],["陳部長駿季：針對50歲以上的部分，根據我這邊的數據，小於45歲的是12.6萬人，45歲至64歲的是27.3萬人，這樣推估起來差不多將近20萬人左右。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以大部分都是在50歲上下對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，在上下這個部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：其實這代表了農業的缺工是非常嚴重的，相信你也非常清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：針對農業缺工，你的報告也提到臺灣是以小農為主，針對小農的缺工，他如果要自己去找工人或者是引進勞工，是不是比較困難？很多人是用合聘的方式，請問你們怎麼樣解決外展農業服務的部分？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，因為請一個外籍移工的成本大概是4萬塊左右，所以如果你自己是小面積，你去請一個外籍移工的話會非常困難，那個會把你的收益都吃掉，所以我們是鼓勵用合作社的方式、共同經營的方式去處理，其次我們會強化這些外展移工跨區協助的功能。"],["謝委員衣鳯：過去你們也有所謂週期性勞動人力的……"],["陳部長駿季：有，我們還是有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但過去就是成效不彰啊！第一個，有一些就是不願意做，有一些不願意留下來，你們未來怎麼樣改善這些問題？"],["陳部長駿季：我想分為兩個層次，首先我們會強化現在本國的人力團，46團大概有1,500人，能夠真正滿足季節性缺工的需求。第二個就是有一些可以用機械化、自動化替代的部分，我們會組成一些農事服務業，然後透過機械化的部分來協助他們去處理。第三個部分像高接梨這些，我們用人機輔具的方式來節省人力，同樣的人，但是能夠增加他的效率。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，但是我們知道像水稻、雜糧等等可以機械化，但是很多的，例如我們剛才說到的花卉或者……"],["陳部長駿季：花卉、果樹都是比較困難的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：花卉或者是菇類，或者是其他的草皮、芽菜等等，都是困難的，這個部分怎麼解決？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個部分，我們會降低申請的門檻，就是我們會去重評估每一個人工作的效率、面積，以前也許訂的比較高，我們會降低門檻，讓他更有機會能夠申請到外籍移工。第二個部分，原來沒有開放的，但是的確是有需求的，像草皮、芽菜，那個部分我們會去新增。"],["謝委員衣鳯：菇類，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，還有菇類。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有大家關注蛋的問題，去年是缺蛋，今年卻是蛋過剩，我想要請問部長，從整體供需的角度來看，為什麼會發生這樣子的問題？"],["陳部長駿季：我想分為兩個層次，在雞舍的整個升級過程中，有一部分已經升級了，產蛋效率變高，但是蛋農的老母雞淘汰速度變慢，他們是用原來的觀念去淘汰，所以我們有一些誘因去加速他的老母雞的淘汰，這是一件事情，讓生產量……另外一個問題是，我們現在的消費量比過往的平均還低……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是啊！我就是想要問你……"],["陳部長駿季：因為是價格的關係，那是價格的關係……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是因為兩個價差的關係？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以導致民眾不願意消費嘛！沒有需求的情況下，產地的蛋就過剩了，農民非常辛苦，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們一直呼籲消費民眾，就是產地價在跌的時候，消費地的價格都不動的時候，最後造成受傷的還是農民啦！所以我們還是希望消費地的部分……"],["謝委員衣鳯：在這個問題上面，消費者跟農民同樣都受傷，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：消費者也沒有享受到現在蛋過剩……"],["陳部長駿季：低廉的價格。"],["謝委員衣鳯：它們低價的便宜，而農民卻又受到了蛋產量過剩的問題，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這個農委會也要解決啊！是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們現在有一部分就是跟超市、賣場合作，它們供應消費端的這些蛋能夠有一些比較平價的方式去刺激他們，部分的超市、賣場已經開始有這樣的行動了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以什麼時候會開始？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這個是我們跟超市、賣場協調，那超市、賣場有一部分已經開始有降價的空間，我們希望這個降價能夠帶動。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，希望降價的問題不會再影響到產地蛋的售價，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是，因為這是惡性循環。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為你這樣子……對，這樣會惡性循環下去，這樣子雞蛋的問題永遠都沒有辦法解決，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：再來，我昨天特別去瞭解現在農業部在推廣的，就是希望輔導農民使用氰滿素來催芽，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，葡萄。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是我發現了，我在觀摩當中發現一個非常大的問題，你們認為氰滿素的導入，農民可以自己噴藥，就是說自己催芽，但是實際上農民現在還是仰賴人工催芽，你知道嗎？他們還沒有辦法自己催芽，所以動植物防檢局預估這個成本跟實際催芽的成本的確還有差距，過去我們希望輔導農民用氰滿素來催芽的時候，結果現在又發生了，第一個，估算的問題。第二個，還發生了氣候的因素也跟過往不同了，現在因為氣候變遷的因素，導致芽太多了，首先，藥劑要怎麼樣使用？到底催芽要怎麼樣子做調適？有沒有辦法這樣做調適？或者是他們可能要用另外一個抑制催芽效果的農藥，過去也是農委會推薦了克美素，克美素目前在食藥署並沒有訂任何的殘留，那在沒有訂殘留情況下，他們可不可以用藥？那不能用藥的情況下，怎麼樣解決目前催芽的問題？部長。"],["陳部長駿季：分兩個部分，就是有關於氰滿素本身我們的輔導方式是用噴的嘛！但是農民的習性過去是用點的，所以這個部分我們一定會去加強，特別在彰化地區，我們臺中場會去加強相關優化技術的部分。第二個部分就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：當然，你現在都是優化技術，但是我說的是農民過往就已經習慣了，因為這個東西他們過往是用外包的方式，所以他們本身就沒有具備催芽的技能……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，所以我們有……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們今天如果要做這樣子的時候，你也要花一些時間去導入，對於農民這樣子的一個……你剛才說了，要誘導他進入這個政策的時候，必須要給他誘因嘛！在氰滿素部分，你怎麼樣提供他們誘因？過去農業部說，要導入氰滿素是希望可以先減氰滿素用藥的價格，就是催芽劑的價格，怎麼樣做相關的補貼？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會去思考一些產業輔導、產業協助的作為，但是我們基本上不傾向直接用……因為藥的部分，我們很少用藥的部分去做補貼，但是也許用產業輔導的方式去協助，特別是葡萄農，他們能夠從原來的手工轉成用噴霧的方式，這個我們會來思考，我會要求相關單位處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這個部分，你們一定要妥善地思考。"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為這個東西是當初……"],["陳部長駿季：二氯乙醇禁用的時候……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們當初在協助他們做相關催芽劑使用氰滿素的這個過程當中，我們希望可以讓所有農民慢慢地去使用，但是使用的時候，又發生了氣候的問題，導致他們又要使用新的藥，這個東西也要去輔導他們、協助他們，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解，委員所關心的就是，在整個新的技術導入的過程中，有一些是要有很明確的輔導機制及協助機制，這個我們會來協助。另外克美素的部分，我們知道大概明年應該就可以有……現在有大概有0.6ppm嘛！我們已經跟食藥署在做行政的處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。這個議題真的很重要，連我們的計時器都跳起來了，所以部長加油。","接下來請呂玉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.0222187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.10534375,"end":12.349718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.99096875,"end":14.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.078468750000003,"end":20.500343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.922218750000003,"end":21.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.00221875,"end":37.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.89846875,"end":38.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.04596875,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.353468750000005,"end":60.88221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.549093750000004,"end":62.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.46846875000001,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.01096875,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.59284375,"end":77.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.16221875000001,"end":78.53346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.78659375000001,"end":86.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.17784375000001,"end":86.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.76846875000001,"end":95.18909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.18909375000001,"end":95.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.52659375,"end":109.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.97159375000001,"end":112.89096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.22846875,"end":134.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.72721875000002,"end":135.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.02659375000002,"end":145.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.71721875,"end":146.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.45534375,"end":157.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.94721875000002,"end":165.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.71846875,"end":164.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.79409375,"end":188.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.47409375,"end":189.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.95909375000002,"end":194.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.11034375,"end":194.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.43096875,"end":199.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.22346875000002,"end":201.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.45971875,"end":201.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.53534375,"end":210.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.91471875000002,"end":204.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.39096875,"end":207.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.79159375,"end":209.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.31034375000002,"end":231.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.96784375000001,"end":215.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.74159375000002,"end":234.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.84284375000001,"end":231.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.20971875,"end":233.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.01534375000003,"end":235.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.62284375000002,"end":236.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.66909375,"end":237.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.20909375000002,"end":240.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.97221875000002,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.07346875000002,"end":242.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.96346875,"end":245.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.83221875,"end":248.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.12284375000002,"end":254.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.25284375,"end":256.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.98659375,"end":257.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.08784375,"end":258.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.04534375000003,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.79971875,"end":265.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.43659375000004,"end":276.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.75221875,"end":271.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.95471875000004,"end":272.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.86534375,"end":281.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.45534375,"end":286.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.31159375000004,"end":296.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.36971875,"end":289.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.71034375,"end":297.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.75659375000004,"end":298.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.14471875000004,"end":299.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.89971875000003,"end":304.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.86096875000004,"end":312.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.48846875000004,"end":313.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.70346875,"end":318.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.73659375,"end":321.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.82034375,"end":322.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.20846875,"end":329.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.78221875,"end":323.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.54534375000003,"end":327.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.43534375,"end":328.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.16096875,"end":335.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.94909375000003,"end":336.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.92784375,"end":338.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.52659375,"end":353.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.85409375,"end":348.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.71409375,"end":355.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.53659375,"end":359.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.97471875,"end":364.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.20596875,"end":379.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.17534375,"end":374.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.95534375,"end":376.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.29659375,"end":380.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.22034375000004,"end":394.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.95659375,"end":396.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.65659375,"end":397.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.41596875000005,"end":398.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.53409375,"end":411.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.16909375,"end":422.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.64534375000005,"end":415.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.15909375,"end":422.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.41221875,"end":459.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.22221875,"end":423.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.44159375000004,"end":423.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.13284375,"end":455.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.07284375,"end":469.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.12221875000006,"end":469.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.15596875000006,"end":469.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.44284375,"end":477.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.59346875000006,"end":478.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.28096875000006,"end":504.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.30659375000005,"end":504.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.01534375000006,"end":507.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.27221875000004,"end":523.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.52721875,"end":526.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.80534375,"end":526.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.05846875,"end":526.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.10909375,"end":571.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.4622187500001,"end":534.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.5828437499999,"end":545.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.4665937500001,"end":561.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.50284375,"end":571.7390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.75596875,"end":571.8740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.8740937499999,"end":571.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.9584687500001,"end":574.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.6922187499999,"end":576.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.2065937500001,"end":587.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.07409375,"end":602.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.2490937499999,"end":609.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.11784375,"end":605.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.0834687500001,"end":610.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.01159375,"end":637.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.9140937500001,"end":613.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.64034375,"end":640.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.52159375,"end":649.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.1784687500001,"end":653.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.2622187500001,"end":653.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.61659375,"end":659.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.52284375,"end":660.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.36659375,"end":660.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.22721875,"end":661.66596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.75,"end":12.14,"text":"接下來我們請謝衣鳯委員請做巡檔謝謝主席 我想要請陳部長 我們再請陳部長委員長"},{"start":20.984,"end":36.098,"text":"部長早其實我看到你們的報告當中你已經了解其實我們現在農業的這個勞動人口其實在50歲以上的勞動人口都算是年輕是不是以農業來說是不是"},{"start":42.421,"end":51.124,"text":"平均是53歲啦那我先提供一個數據就是現在目前的那個主計總數調查是50.9萬那其中如果說大於65歲才11%換句話說65歲以下的大概接近90%左右那50歲以上的呢"},{"start":62.529,"end":64.712,"text":"50歲以上的齁我這邊的數據是有小於45歲的大概12.6萬人然後45到64是27.3萬人這樣推估起來大概20萬人左右"},{"start":74.099,"end":94.234,"text":"所以大部分都是在50歲上下?對上下這個部分那代表了我們其實農業的缺工是非常嚴重的嘛大家都你也非常清楚那在農業缺工裡面你的報告也提到了我們的臺灣的是以小農為主"},{"start":96.116,"end":108.692,"text":"小農的缺工他如果要自己去找工人或者是引進勞工是不是比較困難很多人是用合併的方式那這個部分怎麼樣解決這個外展農業服務"},{"start":110.049,"end":135.752,"text":"我跟委員說明就是因為請一個外籍移工的話成本大概4萬塊左右所以你如果自己是小面積的你去請一個外籍移工的話非常困難我覺得那個會把你的收益都吃掉所以我們是鼓勵用合作社的方式共同經營的方式去處理那第二個部分就是我們會強化這些外展的移工有跨區協助的一個功能"},{"start":136.072,"end":157.131,"text":"可是過去你們也有所謂的就是說我們的就是週期性的就是勞動的人力的 有我們還是有但是過去就是成效不彰啊第一個有一些就是不願意做那有一些不願意留下來那你們未來怎麼樣子改善這些問題"},{"start":158.204,"end":175.576,"text":"我想分為兩個層次就是我們會強化現在本國的人力團46團裡面大概1500人能夠真正的達到對季節性缺工的一個需求能夠滿足到第二個部分就是有一部分可以用機械化自動化替代的部分我們會去組成一些農事服務業"},{"start":176.477,"end":198.841,"text":"然後透過機械化的部分去來協助他們去做處理那第三個部分是有一些像高階里有沒有我們用人機輔具的方式是節省他的同樣的人但是能夠增加他的效率對但是我們知道像水稻、雜糧等等可以機械化但是很多的例如我們剛才說到的花卉"},{"start":199.821,"end":216.494,"text":"對,貿易果樹都是比較困難的花卉或者是菇類或者是其他的草皮、芽菜等等都是困難的那這個部分怎麼解決我想第一個部分就是我們會降低他申請的門檻就是我們會重新評估"},{"start":216.954,"end":236.527,"text":"﹗"},{"start":237.544,"end":254.777,"text":"還有大家關注的蛋的問題去年是缺蛋今年卻是蛋過剩我想要請問部長從你從整體的供需的角度來看為什麼會發生這樣的問題我想分為兩個層次就是說我們在"},{"start":259.053,"end":276.817,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":276.957,"end":278.397,"text":"所以我們一直呼籲我們的消費民眾就是"},{"start":305.785,"end":306.966,"text":"在這個問題上面消費者跟農民同樣的受傷"},{"start":322.304,"end":348.08,"text":"是不是?消費者也沒有享受到現在蛋過剩他們低價的便宜而農民卻又受到了蛋產量過剩的問題是不是?那農委會這個也要解決啊是不是?對我們現在有一部分就是在跟超市賣場合作就是他們供應的消費端的這些蛋能夠有一些比較平價的方式去刺激他們"},{"start":348.92,"end":363.211,"text":"那部分的這些超市賣場已經開始有這樣的行動了所以什麼時候會開始沒有這個是我們在跟超市賣場協調那超市賣場有一部分他已經開始有降價的一個空間那我們希望說這個降價能夠帶動"},{"start":366.153,"end":375.077,"text":"希望降價的問題不會再影響到產地蛋的售價好不好?因為這樣會惡性循環下去我們這樣子這個雞蛋的問題永遠都沒有辦法解決是不是?"},{"start":381.311,"end":396.711,"text":"再來就是我昨天特別去了解了現在我們農業部在推廣的就是希望輔導農民使用青蛮樹來吹芽是不是"},{"start":398.618,"end":410.947,"text":"對但是我發現了我在觀摩當中我發現一個非常大的問題就是你們認為青蛮樹的導入農民可以自己的去"},{"start":412.193,"end":438.558,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":438.918,"end":459.457,"text":"過去我們在希望輔導農民用青蠻樹來吹芽的時候結果現在又發生了這樣子就是第一個估算的問題第二個還發生了氣候的因素也跟過往不同了現在因為氣候變遷的因素導致"},{"start":461.118,"end":478.575,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":479.349,"end":503.409,"text":"我們吹芽的這樣子的一個效果的農藥過去也是農委會推薦克美素那克美素目前在食藥署並沒有定任何的殘留那在沒有定殘留情況下他們可不可以用藥那不能用藥的情況下怎麼樣子解決目前吹芽的問題部長"},{"start":505.009,"end":505.349,"text":"當然你現在都是優化技術阿"},{"start":526.26,"end":543.669,"text":"但是我說的是農民過往他們就已經習慣因為這個東西他們過往是用外包的方式所以他們本身就沒有具備吹牙的這個技能嘛那我們今天如果要做這樣子的時候你也要花一些時間去導入嘛"},{"start":545.41,"end":568.996,"text":"那對於農民這樣子的一個你剛才說的你要誘導他進入這個政策的時候你必須要給他誘因嘛那在這個部分青蠻樹的部分你怎麼樣子提供他們誘因啊過去我們農業部說要導入青蠻樹是希望可以先減青蠻樹這個用藥的價格就是這個催壓劑的價格那怎麼樣子做相關的補貼"},{"start":575.118,"end":587.284,"text":"我想我們會去思考一些產業的輔導的一個產業的協助的作為但是我們基本上不傾向直接用因為藥的部分我們很少用"},{"start":588.154,"end":588.314,"text":"我瞭解"},{"start":608.095,"end":634.629,"text":"就是說我們在當初在協助他們做這個相關的這個吹牙祭的這個就是使用青蠻樹這個過程當中我們希望可以就是說讓所有農民慢慢的去使用但是你去使用的時候我們又發生了氣候的問題導致於他們又要使用新的藥那這個東西你也要去輔導他們協助他們啊"},{"start":636.69,"end":636.71,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154350","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154350","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726cd2adb4845cb5de5b4b539dbd63c1cc91b8981cfbc017771bf151987b109fadff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:14:04 - 10:23:56","影片長度":"00:09:52","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:14:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:23:56+08:00","duration":592,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":260,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時14分）謝謝主席，我想要請林佳龍林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["徐委員巧芯：林部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：說起來對你有點為難，因為你才剛上任，但我今天要問的問題很多都是發生在前一任吳釗燮部長的任內，但是我相信你會有決心改革，希望讓這樣子的事情不再發生，對嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們發現駐美代表處的問題可以說是非常的多，在過去我們馬文君召委曾經揭露一件事情，就是外交官搞婚外情，而且情緒勒索、不允許分手，大家可以自己看文字，在去年6月的時候馬召委就已經問過了，請問一下，後來這一位焦姓參事還在外交部任職嗎？他的職務現在是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：在部內，歐洲司。"],["徐委員巧芯：他的職務是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：副司長。"],["徐委員巧芯：歐洲司副司長嘛！從駐美參事到歐洲司的副司長。"],["林部長佳龍：對，我上任的時候，他還在這個職務上，我沒有做人事調整。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以在馬召委提出了相關的細節，說他外遇、PUA之後，他實際上還在我們外交體系裡面，有很好的職務可以擔任，你們大家對於這個事情沒有太多的檢討？"],["林部長佳龍：我們北美司長想要說明，因為他比較瞭解這個情況。"],["徐委員巧芯：請說。"],["王司長良玉：跟委員報告，他現在是我們的副司長，先前這個黑函出來的時候，我是在駐美代表處的，我有曾經問過我們國會組的同仁，沒有人說有被他情緒勒索等任何的情況，我們在駐美代表處所做的這些跟同仁的訪談，我們都有做成書面的紀錄，所以這是一個黑函，沒有這樣的事情。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以你們認為這是沒有發生的事？"],["王司長良玉：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們另外收到一個陳情，就是我們新聞在報的，俞大㵢代表的夫人不喜歡某一位事務官，認為他服務不周而被換掉，後來又遭到行政組魏姓組長對他的霸凌，據說就是剛剛這一位前駐美參事焦先生的妻子，造成同仁必須離職。你們都說沒有收到陳情書，現在我手上有一份陳情書，我想要請主席裁示，讓我把這份陳情書遞交給我們的外交部長。"],["主席：時間稍微停一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝。在這個陳情書裡面提到，包含分工不平均，這個員工數次表示自己的職務太繁重，希望可以重新分工，已經超過負荷了，但是還要被強加更多的職務；還有業務上碰到困難要反映的時候，會先批評他的做事方式；工作上面求救無效，已經沒有辦法負擔之後，卻沒有辦法找到其他的管道；而且會討論是非，在這個群組上質疑他，然後也沒有求證。所以這個部分，既然現在已經有人來陳情，部長是否能夠同意回去調查，再將結果回復給我們？我們沒有公開相關陳情人的資料，就像剛剛您說的，我們也希望經過調查之後再確認這件事情是否為真。請問部長能夠在多久的時間之內做到呢？"],["林部長佳龍：好，委員剛剛給我的這一份資料看起來好像是他寫給內部同仁的，至於是不是正式的陳情？當然我也會瞭解，不過有這個資料，我們也會來瞭解，就是說……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們大概需要多久的時間能夠調查完畢，再跟我說明？"],["林部長佳龍：應該是一個月內我們可以把這個事情……"],["徐委員巧芯：好。然後我們再看到，外交部霸凌事件頻傳，這是我們整理出來所有外交部過去相關的事件，這個也不能怪您，當時您也不是外交部長，在吳釗燮任內的外交部官員頻頻傳出遭到霸凌輕生，還有涉及性騷擾，我記得還有外交的性騷、#MeToo等等的事件，到處都有，除了上過新聞的霸凌跟#MeToo的案子外，再來看一個，在去年6月，我們的駐美代表處休士頓辦事處的羅姓處長，是否因為涉及婚外情糾紛，而由外交部調回外交學院？請問部長，這個人還在我們的外交部嗎？他是否當時有涉及這樣的問題？"],["林部長佳龍：我是不是請人事處長講一下？"],["徐委員巧芯：沒問題，請來幫忙補充。"],["黃處長麗玲：跟委員報告，關於休士頓的羅處長，目前是已經調回到外交學院。"],["徐委員巧芯：他有沒有發生過上面我所指的……"],["黃處長麗玲：至於他是不是婚外情？這部分我們基本上沒有辦法完全求證，而當時把他調回來的原因是因為在僑務問題的處理上，他可能沒有辦法發展，所以經過內部討論之後把他調回來。"],["徐委員巧芯：他有沒有對於他們部內的基層員工進行霸凌？你們有沒有瞭解過這件事？"],["黃處長麗玲：這件事情，我們沒有接到這樣子的訊息。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們沒有接到，但是我有接到。這個處長的霸凌行徑是什麼？我們駐美處的專員被羅姓處長要求，每天上班的時候只能坐在電腦桌前面，不能開電腦，不能做任何事，就是呆呆的坐在前面8個小時再回家，已經逼到對方快要輕生了，所以現在這名年輕的專員也已經調回臺北，現在好好的，在我們的外交部持續任職。部長，這個案子您一定是不知情的，請問是不是也可以進行調查，做一個全面性的改革？"],["林部長佳龍：我們會來瞭解，因為如果涉及到不管是性騷擾或者是這些……當然我們法令規定得很明確，可是所謂的霸凌還有內部領導或管理，當然外館的館長要負起全責，不過我們也要去瞭解，因為有時候是工作上分工的關係……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們要去瞭解、你們要去調查，我希望能夠做一個改革……"],["林部長佳龍：那是不是構成到霸凌？這個也是要再加以釐清。"],["徐委員巧芯：不能說大家自己官官相護，這是我的要求。","再來，大家很關心俞大㵢的事情，現在被爆料的包含超級貴的沙發、兩張超級貴的床墊、藍芽音響、咖啡機跟地毯，不過就你們提供給我們的資料，報紙上面的這些報導跟實際上面的價格是不太一樣的，報導的價格可以看下一張簡報，這個跟你們提供給我們資料是有出入的，剛才部長也講了，大概兩百多萬左右。但是我想問一個問題，你們只提供給我們一萬美元以上的項目，對於一萬美元以下的私人物品，你們會不會再針對這個部分進行調查，看他有沒有挪用公款的情況？"],["林部長佳龍：這是一萬元新臺幣，不是美元。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，新臺幣，對不起。"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然也讓我們外館以及一定層級的主管有一些空間可以應處各種的需求。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，最後我有一個問題要問，外交部回復本辦關於凱迪拉克的車子是否有去購買的時候，你們提供給我的內容叫做，駐美代表處113年並未提出購置館長座車之需求，該處館長座車已於111年5月購置完畢，車型為Benz E5450、排氣量為3,000cc。可是你們在新聞記者會的說明資料裡面寫的是，外交部並沒有同意相關的採購車輛，意思是對方有提出，但是你們沒有同意。請問哪一份才是正確的？"],["林部長佳龍：來，我請秘書處處長說明。"],["洪處長振榮：跟委員報告，館長的座車確實是沒有提出，新聞稿裡面說，外交部並沒有同意換購相關車輛，是指公務車的部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以是公務車的部分嘛？"],["洪處長振榮：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以除了這台Benz之外，他還額外希望要買一台公務車是凱迪拉克，但是外交部沒有同意這樣的需求嘛？"],["洪處長振榮：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我們知道了。我們希望針對過去駐美代表處發生了這麼多的霸凌事件，不只駐美代表處，我們的外館發生了這麼多霸凌、性騷等各式各樣的事件傳出來，希望我們新任部長可以勇於改革，可以勇於把過去的真相調查出來，因為很多人都在等待這個真相，可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：可以。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請王定宇召委上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.6722187500000001,"end":4.047218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4.097843750000001,"end":4.992218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.236593750000001,"end":7.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.860343750000002,"end":29.528468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.83909375,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.88971875,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.99096875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.304718750000003,"end":30.895343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":30.895343750000002,"end":60.612218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.04659375000001,"end":62.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.70034375,"end":66.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":65.16846875,"end":66.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.88971875,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":67.66596875,"end":74.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.14159375,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.63096875000001,"end":76.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.65596875,"end":83.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":77.97659375,"end":80.89596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":81.38534375,"end":81.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":81.87471875,"end":98.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.53034375,"end":101.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":100.60596875,"end":100.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.63971875,"end":101.11221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":101.11221875000001,"end":101.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.34409375000001,"end":121.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.37909375000001,"end":126.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":124.02846875,"end":126.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":126.23909375000001,"end":126.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.88034375000001,"end":126.99846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":126.99846875000001,"end":164.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.65909375,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":166.97534375,"end":167.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.41409375,"end":167.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":167.71784375000001,"end":168.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":168.46034375000002,"end":168.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.51909375000002,"end":170.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.07159375,"end":172.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.64534375000002,"end":172.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":172.72971875000002,"end":172.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.84784375,"end":172.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":172.99971875,"end":173.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.32034375,"end":173.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":173.57346875000002,"end":174.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":180.35721875000002,"end":241.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.20409375000003,"end":249.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.11846875,"end":260.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":251.26596875,"end":251.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":259.31534375,"end":262.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":263.02784375000005,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.47909375,"end":265.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.59284375000004,"end":268.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":267.14534375,"end":267.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":268.07346875,"end":312.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":313.68659375000004,"end":315.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.91409375,"end":316.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.03221875,"end":316.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.06596875,"end":316.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.11659375,"end":317.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.31471875,"end":317.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.33159375,"end":317.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":317.34846875,"end":319.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.81221875,"end":326.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":326.61284375,"end":329.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.59159375,"end":343.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":332.38409375000003,"end":334.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":343.75784375,"end":349.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.02284375000005,"end":356.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":353.74784375,"end":355.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":356.41409375,"end":393.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":394.34909375,"end":395.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.83409375,"end":403.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.38971875000004,"end":409.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.90784375000004,"end":410.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":410.09346875,"end":410.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.38034375,"end":410.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.90346875,"end":412.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.86096875000004,"end":414.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.30346875000004,"end":430.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":422.61471875,"end":428.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":429.90471875000003,"end":475.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.17596875000004,"end":490.24971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":478.52159375,"end":480.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":490.28346875000005,"end":535.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.64346875,"end":545.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.4309687500001,"end":547.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":547.57409375,"end":558.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.20596875,"end":555.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":558.10409375,"end":581.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":582.2353437500001,"end":582.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":582.60659375,"end":583.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":585.84659375,"end":586.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.1372187500001,"end":592.32659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.731,"end":4.934,"text":"謝謝主席,我想要請林佳龍林部長請林部長林部長好,說起來對你有點為難,因為你才剛上任但我今天要問的問題呢,很多發生的都是在前一任的吳釗燮部長的任內但是我相信你會有決心希望改革,讓這樣子的事情不再發生,對嗎?"},{"start":31.594,"end":47.643,"text":"我們發現駐美代表處的問題可以說是非常的多在過去馬文君召委曾經揭露一件事情就是外交官搞婚外情而且情緒勒索不允許分手就是大家可以自己看文字"},{"start":48.503,"end":73.896,"text":"在去年6月的時候我們馬昭偉就已經問過了請問一下後來這位焦信的參事他還在外交部任職嗎他的職務現在是什麼在部內在部內他的職務是什麼副司長副司長嘛歐洲是從駐美參事的焦到歐洲式的副司長我們"},{"start":77.671,"end":78.872,"text":"我們北美司長想要說明,因為他比較了解這個情況"},{"start":103.716,"end":123.484,"text":"他現在是我們的副司長那先前這個事情這個黑函出來的時候我是在駐美代表處的我有曾經問過我們國會組的同仁沒有人說有被他就是情緒勒索任何的情況這些我們在駐美代表處所做的這些跟同仁的訪談我們都有做成書面的記錄"},{"start":124.224,"end":124.684,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":148.614,"end":167.818,"text":"前駐美參市的焦先生的妻子．對他的霸凌造成同仁必須離職你們都說沒有收到陳情書現在我手上有一份陳情書我想要請主席裁示讓我把這份陳情書遞交給我們的外交部長我們時間稍微停一下好 謝謝給我好 謝謝"},{"start":180.724,"end":193.294,"text":"在這個陳情書裡面他提到了包含是分工不平均這個員工數次表示自己的職務太繁重希望可以重新分工已經負荷過了但是還要被強加更多的職務"},{"start":197.217,"end":224.865,"text":"還有業務上碰到困難要反應的時候會先批評他的做事方式工作上面求救無效已經沒有辦法負擔之後卻沒有辦法找到其他的管道而且會討論是非在這個群組上質疑他然後也沒有求證所以這個部分既然現在已經有人來澄清部長是否能夠同意回去調查那再將結果回覆給我們"},{"start":225.805,"end":248.042,"text":"我們沒有公開相關的這個被陳情仁的資料也是就像剛剛您說的我們也不希望我們也希望經過調查之後再確認這件事情是否為真請問部長能夠在多久的時間之內做到呢當然委員剛剛給我這一份資料那看起來是有點好像他寫給內部的"},{"start":250.268,"end":250.949,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":265.798,"end":290.402,"text":"然後我們再看到外交部的霸凌事件頻傳這是我們整理出來所有外交部在過去這個也不能怪您當時您也不是外交部長在無招卸任內裡面的外交部的官員頻頻遭到霸凌、輕生還有涉及性騷擾還有記得我還有這個外交的性騷、MeToo等等的事件"},{"start":290.962,"end":291.603,"text":"請問部長這個人還在我們的外交部嗎?"},{"start":313.715,"end":319.118,"text":"他是不是當時有涉及這樣子的一個問題沒問題請來幫忙補充跟委員報告關於修士頓的羅處長的部分像目前是已經調回到我們外交學院那至於是不是婚外情這部分我們基本上沒有辦法求證"},{"start":332.825,"end":336.567,"text":"他有沒有對於部內的他們的基層員工進行霸凌你們有沒有了解過這件事情這件事情應該是我們沒有接到這樣子的一個訊息你們沒有接到但是我有接到這個呢 處長呢他的霸凌行徑是什麼"},{"start":360.683,"end":377.111,"text":"我們駐美處的專員被羅姓處長要求每天上班的時候只能坐在電腦桌前面不能開電腦不能做任何事就是呆呆的坐在前面8個小時再回家已經逼到對方快要輕生所以後來這名這個年輕的專員現在也已經調回台北目前呢在我們"},{"start":384.215,"end":385.235,"text":"我們會來瞭解因為如果涉及到不管是這個相關的這個"},{"start":405.029,"end":414.804,"text":"信騷擾啦或者是這些當然這個我們法令規定很民俗可是所謂的霸凌啊還有內部領導或管理那這個我們需要當然"},{"start":416.363,"end":417.464,"text":"再來大家很關心這個余大雷的事情"},{"start":435.896,"end":448.059,"text":"那現在呢被爆料的包含是這個超級貴的沙發然後兩樁超級貴的床墊然後呢藍芽音響咖啡機跟地毯不過就你們提供給我們的資料報紙上面的這些報導跟實際上面的價格是不太一樣的報導的價格我們可以看下一張這個跟你們提供給我們資料是有出入的那剛才部長也講了大概200多萬左右"},{"start":461.542,"end":475.332,"text":"但是呢,好,我想問一個問題,你們只提供給我們在這個一萬美元以上的項目,但一萬美元以下的私人物品的部分,你們會不會再針對這個部分進行調查,它有沒有挪用公款的情況?"},{"start":476.226,"end":476.546,"text":"最後我有一個問題要問"},{"start":492.462,"end":504.75,"text":"為交部回覆本辦關於所謂的這個凱迪拉克的這個車子是否有去購買的時候你們提供給我的內容叫做駐美代表處113年並未提出"},{"start":508.232,"end":534.843,"text":"並未提出購置館長坐車之需求該處館長坐車已於111年5月購置完畢車型為Benz E5450排氣量為3000cc可是你們在新聞記者會的說明資料裏面寫的是外交部並沒有同意相關的採購車輛意思是說對方有提出但是你們沒有同意請問哪一份才是正確的"},{"start":535.843,"end":557.399,"text":"來我請那個米斯村報告跟委員報告那個館長的那個坐車確實是沒有提出那那個新聞稿裡面說外交部並沒有同意換購相關車輛是公務車的部分所以是公務車的部分嗎所以除了這台Benz之外他還額外希望要買一台公務車是凱迪拉克但是外交部沒有同意這樣的需求嗎"},{"start":558.16,"end":558.18,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":589.195,"end":591.49,"text":"接下來請王定宇召委上臺質詢"}]}},{"id":"154348","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154348","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726cc69f435b6b01016021a3f23b3ad13ea2b8981cfbc017771b233332d118b3cbf45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:05:30 - 10:16:37","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:05:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:16:37+08:00","duration":667,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":368,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時5分）主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們今天討論農業缺工問題，我記得從107年開始，我們努力把這個問題檯面化，終於在108年以試辦方式，率先試辦第一批800人，執行到現在，根據統計，隱性的不說，顯性的部分，我們大概需要的移工缺口將近2萬人，當然，第二階段1萬2,000人執行到現在，大約已經有七成左右進來，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，大概8,505人。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大概七成嘛！在這樣的情況下，我們在地方還是聽到很多聲音，有人會說他老了，但孩子不接工作，所以人力缺得很嚴重，而且這些人都是我們的寶貝，所謂的寶貝是什麼？他們都是在最基層的每一個環節，也碰到所有的氣候變遷，等於是一個活生生的農業界最重要博士，而且他們現在還在執行當中，所以缺工的問題，我們務必要幫他們解決。剛剛也聽到部長說現在的1萬2,000人已經用了七成，盤點後還要8,000人，現在的這些對接介面，因為今年就要到了，怎麼辦呢？請說明。"],["陳部長駿季：目前我們就是為了防止年底以後就斷一段時間……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們盤了8,000人，8,000人裡面包括農、林、漁、畜部分，因為我們負責這部分，現在就是積極跟勞動部爭取，說服他們勞動缺工問題，有必要做一個補充。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，我們當你的後盾，你有信心一定爭取到嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我想勞動部也非常支持農業部的提案，他們也非常重視。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們要的是結果，到年底這個介面一定要對接成功，繼續加油！"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們有信心，我們有信心。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們有信心，我就給你獎勵、鼓勵。","接下來我們要討論的問題，因為農業的技術是瞬息萬變，而且行業別也是瞬息萬變，在園藝部分，比如多肉植物，現在很多人，不管是在辦公室或家裡，都非常喜歡，這創造了很多產值，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，草皮也非常迫切需要，因為現在空屋問題，大家都希望把自己的家弄好，甚至在居住的時候，都希望有草皮，在這樣的情況之下，草皮園藝也非常的需要，其實在我的選區后里，是全國草皮最棒的地區，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是目前草皮的類別還沒有辦法加入這個行業，怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我們有特別針對一些新興的、比較需要的部分提出來，譬如像草皮、菇類等。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，上一次本席跟你討論的時候，連花卉都沒有，最後你加進來，那草皮呢？"],["陳部長駿季：對，6月7號的時候，針對新的部分，我們已經有跟勞動部爭取，另一方面，我們也降低它的門檻，因為如果門檻太高了，就算有提供……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你要去盤點。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我們都盤點好了，已經在6月7號有部分行文到勞動部，我們也會持續往降低門檻、增加新的品項為目標前進。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席請教，草皮的部分會放寬嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們6月7號有提出，應該會吧！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是務必，這是務必。"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經有提案到勞動部了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：增加的類別，除了草皮，還有什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：菇，還有芽菜。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：芽菜，非常的重要，菇有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：菇的話，有一些門檻也會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：像新社現在連菇菌種都由我們的農會自己來協助，這是為國爭光，所以菇類、草皮都會在這一次……"],["陳部長駿季：還有芽菜。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候會公布？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在行政程序上一定會跟勞動部協調，然後跟它爭取……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你預估的KPI時間點在什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：我希望在年底之前都能夠完成，當然越快越好啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不可能到年底，現在才6月耶！"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼可能半年？你們不做事嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：因為勞動部有定期開會審查的機制，然後我們會跟勞動部……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼審也不要審到半年啊！大家都知道這非常的迫切需要啊！我們農民一天都不能等耶！"],["陳部長駿季：我們在6月7號已經提出來，我再拜託勞動部，希望能夠加速審查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加速審查、儘速開放，包括草皮、菇類、芽菜都要開放。"],["陳部長駿季：因為它有一部分還要修法，所以這個部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你真的要謝謝我們臺中地區的草皮，像永旺公司是二、三十年來全家總動員不斷地在推陳出新，為我們國家賺了這麼多的稅，所以我們要全力支持它。像我們的香菇，我們做到被人欺負之後，甚至農會……這是你們輔導的，我也要感謝。現在菌種是由我們自己來做，這就是我們臺灣人的精神，我們一定要保護我們自己的農業，在相關的配套裡頭，我們開放了這個類別，但是在整個申請的過程，一定要好好的協助他們簡化手續，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：應該的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這部分我們必須要加油。接下來我要跟你討論雞蛋的問題，請問現在產地一斤多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：25.5元。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你看它就是一直盤，上個禮拜還有27.5元，現在已經變成25.5元，批發價本來大概是37元，現在是多少？29元！甚至有人說載去給豬吃，好辛苦！甚至一箱才300元，怎麼辦？您上次跟本席討論的，針對寡產雞，你說一個月我們要有50萬隻……"],["陳部長駿季：從120萬隻到180萬隻，大概60萬……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：維持兩個月嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：維持兩個月，每一個月增加淘汰50萬隻？"],["陳部長駿季：應該是60萬隻，從120萬隻變成180萬隻。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：60萬隻？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一隻補助多少？"],["陳部長駿季：20塊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一隻補助20塊？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你冷靜去想，好不容易生出來的雞蛋過量，甚至要去餵豬，心痛啊！接下來我們又看到因為你的產銷沒有安排好，所以一隻還要補助20塊，這都是人民的納稅錢啊！針對你的產銷機制，你現在希望控制在2,400萬顆，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在希望控制在這個樣子，本席也具體給你建議，你的產銷機制必須好好去盤點，好不好？你沒有去盤點，又要補助一隻寡產母雞20塊，這都是我們的錢耶！60萬隻double變成120萬隻，又要花多少錢？產生出來的雞蛋還要送給豬吃，它保存起來還要冷藏、還要電費，農民苦哈哈，雞農苦哈哈，不可以如此。請你去盤點，看看我們要怎麼樣讓產銷平穩，你把詳細的數字資料給本席好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，你知道本席非常關心遊蕩犬貓，關於TNR機制的SOP，整個流程要完善啊！在手術之後，應該要讓牠們經過幾天的觀察期才可以回置，但是現在第二十六條卻告訴我們只要一天，一天可以嗎？腸子破掉了、肚子也破了，這怎麼辦？可以嗎？本席具體建議，你應該要將TNR的手冊內容嚴格落實，基層都建議回置的時間要手術後的五天，部長，你認為呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得在回置之前一定要確保動物的福利，這是最大的一個前提，如果說牠……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！如果通通規定只有一天，肚子破掉也讓牠出來……"],["陳部長駿季：如果結紮以後有些傷口，那就應該要看當時的情況，我覺得一天可能太早了，要確保動物的福利是一個前提。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這是基本，第一線希望能有五天，我希望你去盤點，至少要三天，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們會來檢討整個SOP。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把數字告訴本席，因為你們更離譜，肚子破掉的回置之後竟說請周邊的居民看一下牠到底在哪裡！所以本席要提出第二項建議，第一個是時間點請你們去盤點，本席具體建議至少要三天才能回置。第二個具體建議手術之後也應該要放晶片，你們去研議，這樣子你才可以管控這一隻到底跑到哪裡去啊，不然就會製造第二個問題嘛，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得委員的建議非常正確，就是當我捕捉之後要回置時，應該要放晶片，如果沒有的話，我會來要求，如此一來，後續才能夠有效的追蹤。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這樣才能達到效果嘛，對不對？謝謝你同意本席所提出的建議，結紮手術之後，你必須要放晶片，讓所有的人都能夠安心嘛，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第一項就是以照顧犬貓的安全為基準，本席具體建議是三天，你要把時間告訴本席好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：接下來請謝衣鳯委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.25034375000000003,"end":2.9672187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.814718750000001,"end":7.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.658468750000001,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.46409375,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.437843750000003,"end":15.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.84284375,"end":16.129718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.876593750000001,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.14659375,"end":16.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.29846875,"end":16.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.46721875,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.89284375,"end":26.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.305343750000002,"end":26.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.60909375,"end":37.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.52721875,"end":44.159093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.344718750000006,"end":57.962843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.08534375,"end":58.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.924718750000004,"end":60.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.35909375000001,"end":60.797843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.135343750000004,"end":65.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.87721875,"end":67.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.66596875,"end":95.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.01596875,"end":110.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.96346875,"end":108.11534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.31784375000001,"end":108.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.62971875000001,"end":115.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.12284375,"end":114.15659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.19034375000001,"end":114.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.58659375,"end":120.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.37909375000001,"end":139.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.33659375,"end":123.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.20346875,"end":138.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.28346875,"end":140.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.10596875000002,"end":143.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.25784375,"end":141.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.70471875,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.95721875,"end":149.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.27346875,"end":149.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.59409375,"end":154.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.25596875000002,"end":155.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.11221875,"end":172.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.62659375,"end":157.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.24534375000002,"end":167.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.02096875,"end":172.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.30784375000002,"end":172.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.35846875000001,"end":176.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.22284375,"end":176.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.74596875,"end":179.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.14221875,"end":179.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.54721875,"end":180.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.82971875,"end":181.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.07846875,"end":207.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.85846875000001,"end":185.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.89221875,"end":186.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.19596875000002,"end":186.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.29721875,"end":186.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.62096875,"end":193.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.17721875,"end":198.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.77909375000002,"end":207.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.93096875,"end":208.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.01534375,"end":208.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.62284375000002,"end":214.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.34346875,"end":224.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.28846875000002,"end":215.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.50659375,"end":228.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.26159375,"end":226.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.43846875000003,"end":247.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.36784375000002,"end":251.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.50221875000003,"end":255.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.02534375000002,"end":252.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.93221875,"end":254.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.80534375000002,"end":256.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.49721875,"end":258.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.62346875000003,"end":259.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.39534375,"end":261.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.52159375,"end":262.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.96034375,"end":262.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.65221875000003,"end":264.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.47909375,"end":266.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.26346875,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.87096875000003,"end":268.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.94221875,"end":273.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.08096875,"end":277.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.92846875000004,"end":280.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.01659375,"end":281.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.61971875,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.93596875000003,"end":286.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.91471875,"end":286.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.66971875,"end":288.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.77909375,"end":293.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.66034375000004,"end":295.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.09034375000005,"end":298.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.24159375,"end":302.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.97096875,"end":303.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.20721875000004,"end":310.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.09221875000003,"end":312.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.82596875,"end":315.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.28971875,"end":321.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.66096875,"end":317.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.34784375000004,"end":323.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.84534375000004,"end":325.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.14471875000004,"end":325.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.51596875,"end":325.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.12346875000003,"end":326.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.03471875,"end":327.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.13159375000004,"end":328.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.19471875000005,"end":330.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.86534375,"end":331.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.20284375,"end":336.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.62471875,"end":331.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.94909375000003,"end":340.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.82159375000003,"end":343.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.58471875000004,"end":348.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.22534375000004,"end":351.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.24596875000003,"end":362.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.07971875000004,"end":365.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.93159375000005,"end":380.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.03909375,"end":380.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.22471875,"end":381.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.63784375,"end":384.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.24534375,"end":387.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.54409375,"end":390.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.27784375000005,"end":392.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.18034375,"end":395.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.51346875,"end":396.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.74534375,"end":397.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.50034375,"end":401.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.43659375000004,"end":405.09846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.55846875000003,"end":405.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.75659375000004,"end":406.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.03909375,"end":407.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.87846875,"end":411.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.71346875,"end":412.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.25346875,"end":412.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.43909375000004,"end":412.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.82721875000004,"end":413.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.04221875,"end":415.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.24034375,"end":415.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.79284375000003,"end":417.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.53096875,"end":419.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.64471875000004,"end":422.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.28971875,"end":423.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.64409375,"end":427.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.29346875000005,"end":431.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.40284375000005,"end":429.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.54159375,"end":432.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.18284375,"end":434.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.31784375,"end":436.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.48596875000004,"end":436.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.51971875000004,"end":438.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.94971875000005,"end":439.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.65846875000005,"end":439.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.84409375,"end":440.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.06346875,"end":441.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.41346875000005,"end":442.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.93221875,"end":444.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.79284375000003,"end":444.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.31596875,"end":445.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.94846875,"end":448.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.49659375000005,"end":450.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.61034375,"end":453.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.81659375000004,"end":456.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.63471875000005,"end":459.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.26284375,"end":464.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.17346875000004,"end":470.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.74221875,"end":471.26534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.31596875,"end":471.72096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.72096875000005,"end":473.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.53909375,"end":476.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.30659375000005,"end":479.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.88846875,"end":483.04409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.53346875000005,"end":483.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.59659375,"end":491.93721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.61346875000004,"end":485.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.42659375000005,"end":496.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.98284375000003,"end":500.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.11721875,"end":503.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.71596875000006,"end":505.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.58909375,"end":507.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.09534375000004,"end":506.63534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.69409375000004,"end":510.43221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.02284375000005,"end":513.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.97596875,"end":515.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.8490937500001,"end":516.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.40596875,"end":518.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.7178437499999,"end":523.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.4597187500001,"end":525.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.1597187500001,"end":528.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.9609687500001,"end":538.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.32221875,"end":541.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.95471875,"end":542.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.25409375,"end":546.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.84409375,"end":548.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.1940937500001,"end":550.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.13471875,"end":551.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.9953437500001,"end":552.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.34534375,"end":554.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.6953437500001,"end":555.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.01159375,"end":558.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.3022187500001,"end":562.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.16659375,"end":565.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.86659375,"end":567.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.95471875,"end":570.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.5872187500001,"end":574.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.9284687500001,"end":575.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.73409375,"end":583.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.01159375,"end":585.7959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.1928437500001,"end":591.7022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.7022187499999,"end":591.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.76971875,"end":591.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.85409375,"end":594.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.98034375,"end":594.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.4865937500001,"end":595.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.08971875,"end":599.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.6672187500001,"end":602.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.6840937500001,"end":600.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.3884687500001,"end":625.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.3628437500001,"end":603.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.47034375,"end":617.8078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.36784375,"end":629.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.0803437500001,"end":629.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.1140937499999,"end":629.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.6540937500001,"end":632.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.2022187499999,"end":632.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.21909375,"end":632.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.55659375,"end":632.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.5903437500001,"end":640.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.2434687500001,"end":638.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.97721875,"end":643.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.9853437500001,"end":663.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.2084687500001,"end":647.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.5234687500001,"end":655.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.9697187500001,"end":662.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.06221875,"end":666.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.83409375,"end":667.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.71159375,"end":666.7453437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.279,"end":9,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊瓔到位質詢。主席楊瓊瓔發言,邀請部長。請部長。"},{"start":15.455,"end":36.062,"text":"部長,我們今天討論農業界的缺工我記得在107年開始我們努力的把這個問題檯面化終於在108年以事辦的方式800人率先DP執行到現在我們所統計出來"},{"start":38.003,"end":57.84,"text":"顯性的 隱性還不說顯性的大概我們需要的這一些移工的缺口應該會有將近兩萬人那目前當然第二階段一萬兩千人執行到現在大約有七成左右進來 對不對對大概七成嘛那在這樣的情況之下我們在當地地方還是"},{"start":65.913,"end":65.933,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":96.173,"end":96.213,"text":"拜託解決這問題!"},{"start":116.861,"end":138.912,"text":"我想我們現在目前就是為了防止說年底以後就斷了一段的時間,所以我們盤了8000人,8000人包括封為農林移蓄這個部分,因為我們負責過來,然後現在就積極的跟勞動部去爭取,去說服他其實勞動的缺工是必要的,來做一個補充。"},{"start":139.352,"end":156.561,"text":"我們當你的後盾阿你有信心一定要爭取到嘛對不對我想勞動部也非常支持農業部的一個提案他們也非常重視阿我們要的是結果再到年底這個界面一定要對接成功繼續加油我們有信心那我們有信心我就給你獎勵鼓勵"},{"start":158.882,"end":178.783,"text":"接下來我們要討論的我們在基層因為我們的這個農業的技術訊息萬變而且行業別也訊息萬變原因裡頭比如說我們的多肉植物現在是很多人不管辦公室大家都非常喜歡這個創造了很多的產值對不對對"},{"start":180.725,"end":208.541,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":208.901,"end":226.226,"text":"但是目前草皮的類別還沒有辦法加入這個行業怎麼辦我跟委員報告特別是我們針對一些新興的這些比較需要的像草皮像一些菇色這些更需要的上一次本席在跟你討論的時候連花卉都沒有最後你加進來對我現在6月7日的時候我們已經新的部分我們會跟勞動部爭取然後另一方面我們會把它降低門檻"},{"start":235.288,"end":237.229,"text":"所以本期請教草皮的部分會放寒這是務必"},{"start":256.581,"end":268.494,"text":"對 我們已經有提案到勞動部去了增加的類別 草皮還有什麼菇吧 芽菜 芽菜 非常的重要 菇 菇在我的心色 我們現在連菇 菇菌種都我們農會自己來協助"},{"start":278.185,"end":281.612,"text":"這是為國爭光啊 為國爭光 所以菇類 草皮都會在這一次 芽菜 什麼時候會公布"},{"start":288.82,"end":311.876,"text":"我想我們在實驗程序上一定要跟勞動部協調然後跟他整理你預估的KPI的時間點在什麼時候我都希望在年底之前都能夠完成啦當然越快越好啊不可能到年底現在才6月我知道你怎麼可能半年你不做事嗎因為勞動部我想勞動部他有定期的這樣開會然後審查的一個機制然後我們會怎麼審也不要審到半年啊"},{"start":312.837,"end":316.862,"text":"大家都知道非常的迫切需要啊我們農民一天都不能等欸我再跟勞動部拜託齁能夠加速的審查加速審查競速開放草皮香菇菇菇類那個"},{"start":328.197,"end":343.395,"text":"那個銀芽芽菜都要開放因為他有一部分還要修法部長你真的要謝謝我們台中地區的這個草皮像我們的勇旺公司是"},{"start":344.622,"end":359.6,"text":"二三十年全家董總動員不斷的在推陳初心為我們國家賺了這麼多的稅所以我們要全力支持他像我們的香菇我們做到被人欺負之後我們甚至農會你們輔導的我要謝謝我們自己"},{"start":363.137,"end":363.757,"text":"我們現在三天現在一共多少?"},{"start":394.449,"end":394.709,"text":"25.5元現在29元"},{"start":408.999,"end":428.666,"text":"甚至有人說再來給我第一家好辛苦一箱甚至一箱一箱300塊怎麼辦您上次跟我本席討論的從寡產機對那麼你說一個月我們要有這個50萬隻120萬齁你要維持兩個月大概60萬維持兩個月嗎維持兩個月每一個月增加淘汰50萬隻應該是60萬120變成180"},{"start":440.132,"end":452.944,"text":"60萬隻 一隻補助多少 20塊 一隻補助20塊部長你冷靜去想好不容易生出來的雞蛋 過量甚至要去餵豬 心痛啊"},{"start":453.891,"end":477.601,"text":"接下來我們要看到人民的納稅錢因為你的產銷沒有去安排好我們還要一支補助20塊這都是人民的納稅錢你的產銷機制你現在希望控制在2400萬克 對不對你現在希望控制這樣子那所以本席也具體給你建立你的產銷機制"},{"start":479.929,"end":483.751,"text":"你的產銷機制必須好好的去盤點好不好你沒有去盤點一架子又要我們補助一隻寡產母雞20塊這都是我們的錢欸60萬隻double120萬隻又要花多少錢啊產生出來的雞蛋還要送給豬吃哇這個是他存起來還要冷藏還要電費農民苦哈哈雞農苦哈哈欸"},{"start":508.735,"end":524.998,"text":"不可以如此你去盤點我們要怎麼樣在產銷能夠平穩你把數量資料給本席好不好好最後一個議題我給你也就是你知道本席非常關心的我們流浪的遊蕩的這些犬貓"},{"start":526.206,"end":546.644,"text":"那我們現在有說啊天啊天啊的機制你的SOP流程你整個要完善啊我說你今天手術之後你應該要有讓他們幾天的觀察期才可以回治嘛你現在第26條告訴我你們告訴我只要一天"},{"start":547.905,"end":563.932,"text":"一天可以嗎?腸子破掉了!肚子也破了!這怎麼辦啊?可以嗎?所以本期具體建議你應該要將這個TNR的手冊裡面要嚴格的去落實到它上面基層都建議回治的時間要手術後的5天部長你認為呢?"},{"start":576.972,"end":577.112,"text":"對﹖這個基本"},{"start":596.124,"end":604.227,"text":"第一件希望五天我希望你去盤點至少要三天好不好好不好你把數字告訴本席因為你們更離譜叫說回字過去肚子破掉的說請周邊的居民你請看一下他到底在哪裡所以本期第二項建議第一個時間點你們去盤點本期具體建議至少要三天回字第二個具體建議手術之後也應該要有放晶片你們去研議"},{"start":625.416,"end":625.436,"text":"拜託!"},{"start":640.879,"end":640.959,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154347","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154347","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c5894d97ffce518ab4b539dbd63c1cc91b8981cfbc017771ba3b2363ea2ed9ac65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:03:43 - 10:13:55","影片長度":"00:10:12","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:03:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:13:55+08:00","duration":612,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":239,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時3分）謝謝主席，有請林部長，歐洲司司長如果稍後需要的話，可以協助部長回應。"],["主席：請部長還有司長。"],["林委員楚茵：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：我們今天的題目其實就是如何運用國際友我組織來讓我國加入聯合國，所以我想承接剛剛沈伯洋委員的說法，中國懲治臺獨的規定當中很明確的講，推動臺灣加入僅限主權國家參加的國際組織或進行官方的活動，這都會被列為臺獨啊！所以以我們今天的題目來講，部長，您就是臺獨分子了，你怕嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這是委員會排的，所以委員會應該優先。"],["林委員楚茵：是，所以全中華民國國民都是臺獨分子啊！我必須講中華民國就是一個國家，如果你要去延伸中國的定義的話，當然我們的定義我們自己作主，沒錯，但是他現在就是真的包山包海了。我們要知道，中華民國的國民一出生，接下來就有機會就會拿到身分證，對不對？所以這個部分部長你怎麼來看？我延續的來講，在推動國際組織的這個部分，現在第一線的外館人員強調他是中華民國的外交官的時候會害怕嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：外交官不會害怕，我們就是捍衛國家主權跟人民的權利。"],["林委員楚茵：我覺得這個非常重要，因為對於中國的恫嚇，他其實就是先說先贏，但是在先說先贏之後，我們也瞭解到，在國際現實的狀況底下，除了大概統促黨、新黨這種認為中華民國等於中華人民共和國一部分的政治立場，不然的話，我們身為中華民國的國民，不論是從昨天國防部的國軍弟兄保衛中華民國、保護我們自己的國家，包括第一線的外交人員，但是我們看到現在的國際現實是，我特別列出來現在有53個國家跟中國簽有引渡的條款，包括香港，言下之意就是，現在送到香港也等於送到中國，我特別列出來的53國當中，像韓國、泰國、菲律賓、越南、新加坡、馬來西亞，甚至於法國、英國、德國、義大利、捷克，為什麼我會特別標紅點的原因是，根據我的瞭解，今天大概就是學校、尤其是中小學生最後一天上課，接下來馬上進入7月，就是旅遊的高峰季了，當中國是用這種缺席審判的方式都可以來進行程序時，我們拿著中華民國的護照出國，那麼中國的懲治新規定外館要如何來因應？會不會有剛剛我們所講的，它隨便安你一個罪名，就把你先用所謂缺席審判，然後就把你的人先押走，甚至把你引渡到中國，你們現在有進行這樣的思考，或者是跟國安單位還是相關單位來進行SOP的演練，或者是開會討論嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有，已經有開過國安高層的會議，也責成國安會跟相關部會，包括外交部來做具體的因應，進一步能夠有一個整體的因應作法，特別對外交部來講，我們對外館，因為這涉及到跟當地國家的交涉，怎麼去預防，或萬一發生的時候去妥善的因應，我們也訓令外館，也要注意最近因為中共公布了懲治臺獨的相關意見之後，可能的輿情反映跟我們的溝通，還有後續的因應。"],["林委員楚茵：因為對於很多的國人來講，今天一個最新的民調是有七成以上的民眾認為自己是臺灣人，那麼對於臺灣民眾來講，認為自己是中華民國的國民這個更是畫上等號，是毋庸置疑的。比如說我現在舉一個例子，昨天我們的蕭副總統也出席了在臺灣舉辦的文化奧運的記者會，我們有超過22個文化表演團會前往巴黎，另外我們臺灣代表隊其實現在也已經啟程出發了，也就是說，7月20號開始，我們會有許多包括參加奧運或者是文化表演團，現在人就在歐洲，這些有引渡條款的國家當中就包括了法國、英國、德國、義大利跟捷克，這些歐陸的國家是連在一起的，有些人他是為了看奧運而去歐洲，有些人當然就是我們的國家代表隊，會參加奧運或者是出席表演，現在人就在歐洲，那麼突如其來像這樣一個新規範跟新規定，對於這些代表隊或者是前往歐洲的人民，我想問一下歐洲司做了哪些準備？"],["黃司長鈞耀：報告委員，對於如果萬一有發生什麼緊急應變，我們已經有擬定緊急應變計畫，同時我們也請外館來進行演練，有關於新生出來的這個22條的問題，我想依據國際引渡的基本原則，他也必須要兼顧人權，尤其您剛剛所提到的這些國家，基本上都是民主國家。"],["林委員楚茵：好，但是如果就如同沈伯洋委員剛剛所說的，它第一個罪名絕對不會是安你一個臺獨分裂分子，它可以用其他的詐騙或是其他罪犯的名義，包括過去我曾經在這裡質詢過國安局的局長，它會檢查你的手機，認為你的手機當中有他們認為不符合規定的，像這樣的狀況的時候，當然那是在中國會發生，但是在歐洲他用其他的方式的時候，這個部分你們有沒有提醒國人必須要注意，包括提醒現在要前往歐洲的民眾、國人要瞭解？"],["黃司長鈞耀：我們目前也會加強跟我們理念相近的夥伴國家溝通，尤其是在引渡的事情上面，我想他們也都會依據他們個別的國內法，他們是基於他們的法治跟民主理念，我們會特別提醒，在這方面他們也要特別的謹慎，尤其是涉及中國問題的時候。"],["林委員楚茵：好，最後一個要請教部長的問題就是有關於現在駐美代表俞大㵢所引發的這些爭議，對於部內來講，現在是不是已經調查清楚了？我想應該是分成兩個部分，第一個當然就是有關於公款的使用，針對公款的使用，我認為外交人員在國外代表的就是我們的國家，就是中華民國，不到奢華，但是我認為也不需要裝窮，尤其是臺灣can help，臺灣是可以協助各個國家的，所以在公款的使用上面我們明明白白會有規矩、會有規定，有必要的該花則花，這個部分我想外交部應該可以給一個比較明確的答案。至於還有其他，包括館長，尤其是俞大㵢，他在管理上面有沒有出問題，這個部分現在外交部有查清楚了嗎？有答案了嗎？因為現在國民黨要求他兩個禮拜之內回來，但是我們要知道，外交工作，尤其是剛剛我們提到的中國設定的了22條新的規定，這是會影響到現在我們對於全球、尤其不論是國人又或者是對外說明的一個非常重要的時間點，華府是一個非常重要的地方，所以部長，這兩個問題外交部查清楚了嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：採購的部分都是依法、依程序的相關規範辦理，至於說個別的項目，外界有一些不同的意見，包括幾個項目，像床墊、沙發等等，我覺得是要把它說清楚，為什麼是這個採購，但總的價格並不是像外面講的這麼大──八百萬，我們經過釐清之後，大概是兩百多萬，就是整個上半年我們美處採購的財產。"],["林委員楚茵：這有超出預算嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：他都是經過我們秘書處還有會計單位同意核可，所以程序上是沒有問題，至於說認定上，當然就是把它解釋清楚，立法委員也有要這個資料，我們也有給，當然有些說為什麼用密？因為涉及到外館判斷這些項目可能會涉及到一些機敏性，但是內容的部分都可以讓委員知道。至於說管理上，確實在第一線打仗壓力很大，同仁特別辛苦，我們一定要能夠相互的扶持，因為我們要一致對外，至於內部的管理該檢討、改革，都應該不斷地來精進。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席想要講的是，不要讓第一線──不論是基層或者是代表國家的外交官，感覺他們的努力好像沒有受到重視，不論是基層或者是代表駐館的外交官，其實都是同樣為外交來做努力，這個部分還是請部長要注意。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":6.4772187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.202843750000001,"end":7.9790937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.67471875,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.19784375,"end":12.771593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.36221875,"end":39.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.95721875,"end":39.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.99096875,"end":44.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.445968750000006,"end":44.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.564093750000005,"end":47.500343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.75346875,"end":67.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.08784375,"end":81.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.53721875000001,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.94159375000001,"end":86.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.00034375,"end":92.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.89409375000001,"end":109.93784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.29909375000001,"end":93.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.68034375,"end":121.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.51409375,"end":134.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.26721875,"end":185.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.52096875,"end":199.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.66221875000002,"end":216.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.72284375,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.10659375,"end":244.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.38096875000002,"end":250.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.57409375,"end":283.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.07096875,"end":287.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.88471875,"end":296.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.76096875,"end":314.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.97721875,"end":348.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.56721875,"end":385.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.61159375,"end":412.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.33346875,"end":475.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.88909375000003,"end":492.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.89909375,"end":507.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.37346875000003,"end":533.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.07846875,"end":534.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.1203437500001,"end":561.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.52971875,"end":578.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.19784375,"end":589.1709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.5759687500001,"end":601.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.60784375,"end":601.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.81409375,"end":605.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.5690937500001,"end":610.01159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":7.632,"text":"主席有請林部長那麼歐中司的司長如果等一下稍後需要的話可以協助部長回應請部長還有司長部長早委員早我們今天的題目其實就是如何運用國際友我組織來讓我國加入聯合國所以說我想承接剛剛這個沈伯陽委員的說法就是中國"},{"start":27.419,"end":27.479,"text":"委員會應該優先"},{"start":49.083,"end":70.572,"text":"所以中華民國國民就是台獨份子啊因為我必須講中華民國就是一個國家如果你要去延伸中國的定義的話那當然我們的定義我們自己做主沒錯但是他現在就是真的包山包海了我們要知道中華民國的國民你一出生接下來你有機會就會拿到身份證嘛對不對"},{"start":71.212,"end":76.277,"text":"所以這個部分部長你怎麼來看我延續的事來講是我們在這個推動國際組織的這個部分現在第一線的外管人員去強調我是中華民國的外交官的時候害怕嗎"},{"start":88.035,"end":106.499,"text":"外交官我們不會害怕我們就是說捍衛國家主權跟人民我覺得這個非常重要因為對於中國的恫嚇他其實就是先說先贏但是在先說先贏之後我們也了解到的是國際現實的狀況底下那麼除了大概統促黨新黨這種就是認為中華民國"},{"start":110.714,"end":134.615,"text":"等於中華人民共和國的一部分這種政治立場不然的話我們身為中華民國的國民那麼不論是從昨天的國防部的國軍弟兄保衛中華民國保衛我們自己的國家到第一線的外交人員但是我們看到的現在的國際現實是我特別列出來現在有53個國家跟中國是遷由引渡的條款包括香港"},{"start":135.316,"end":164.395,"text":"那麼言下之意就是現在說實話如果香港送到香港也等於送到中國我特別列出的53國當中像韓國、泰國、菲律賓、越南、新加坡、馬來西亞甚至於法國、英國、德國、義大利、捷克為什麼我會特別標紅點的原因是根據我的了解這些都是現在接下來今天大概就是學校尤其中小學生最後一天上課馬上進入7月就是旅遊的高峰季了"},{"start":164.835,"end":184.706,"text":"那麼當中國是用這種缺席審判的方式都可以來進行程序的時候我們拿著中華民國的護照出國那麼中國的懲治新規定外管要怎麼樣如何來因應會不會有剛剛我們所講的他隨便安你一個罪名就把你先用"},{"start":185.626,"end":211.825,"text":"所謂缺席審判然後就把你的人先押走甚至於把他引渡到中國你們現在有進行這樣的思考或者是跟國安單位或是相關的單位來進行SOP的演練或者是開會討論嗎有已經有開過國安高層的會議也責成國安會跟相關部會包括外交部就具體的因應再進一步來這個就是來讓"},{"start":214.967,"end":243.943,"text":"能夠有一個整體的因應的做法特別對外交部來講我們對外管因為這個涉及到跟當地國家的交涉怎麼去預防或萬一有發生的時候去妥善的因應那我們也訓練外管要注意這個最近這個因為中共公布了這個所謂陳志台獨的這些相關的意見之後可能的輿情的反應跟我們的溝通還有後續的因應"},{"start":244.423,"end":252.927,"text":"因為對於很多的國人來講今天一個最新的民調是有七成以上的民眾認為自己是台灣人那麼對於台灣民眾來講認為自己是中華民國的國民這個更是畫上等號無庸置疑的比如說我現在要舉一個例子就是昨天我們的校副總統也出席了這個在台灣舉辦的文化奧運的記者會我們有超過22個文化的表團會前往巴黎另外我們台灣代表隊其實現在也已經啟程出發了"},{"start":273.297,"end":293.562,"text":"也就是說7月20號開始之後我們看到的是會有許多包括參加奧運或者是表演文化表團現在人就在歐洲那麼這些由引渡條款的國家當中就包括了法國英國德國義大利跟捷克這些歐五的國家是連在一起的"},{"start":293.942,"end":314.19,"text":"有些人他是為了看奧運而去歐洲有些人當然是我們的代表國家代表隊會參加奧運或者是出席表演現在人就在歐洲那麼零突如其來的像這樣的一個新規範跟新規定對於這些代表隊或者是前往歐洲的人民的部分我想問一下歐洲司做了哪些準備"},{"start":317.371,"end":335.517,"text":"報告委員我們對於這個如果有萬一有發生什麼緊急應變我們已經有擬定緊急應變計畫那同時我們也請外管來進行演練那有關於這個新生出來的這個22條的問題"},{"start":338.078,"end":347.83,"text":"那我想依據國際的引渡的基本的原則他也必須要兼顧人權尤其您剛剛所提到這些國家基本上都是民主國家"},{"start":348.609,"end":365.683,"text":"好,但是如果就如同沈梁委員剛剛所說的他絕對第一個罪名不會認為說是安寧一個臺獨分裂分子他可以是用其他的詐騙或是其他的罪犯的名義包括過去我曾經在這裡質詢過國安局的局長他會檢查你的手機認為你的手機當中有認為他們不符合規定的"},{"start":371.187,"end":385.447,"text":"那麼像這樣的狀況的時候當然那是在中國會發生但是在歐洲的時候他用其他的方式的時候這個部分你們有沒有提醒國人必須要注意包括現在提醒要前往歐洲的民眾國人要了解"},{"start":389.29,"end":412.087,"text":"我想我們目前也會加強跟我們營業相近的夥伴的國家的溝通那尤其是在引渡的事情上面我想他們也會都應據他們個別的國內法他們是基於他們的法治跟民主理念我們會特別提醒說這方面他們也要特別的謹慎尤其是當涉及到中國的問題的時候"},{"start":413.37,"end":434.642,"text":"好那最後一個問題要請教部長的就是有關於現在中美代表俞大雷所引發的這些爭議對於部內來講現在是不是已經調查清楚了我想應該是分成兩個部分第一個當然就是有關於公款的這個使用那麼公款的使用我認為外交人員在國外代表的就是我們的國家就是中華民國"},{"start":436.764,"end":449.179,"text":"不到奢華但是我認為也不需要裝窮尤其是台灣can help台灣是一個可以協助各個國家的所以在公款的使用上面我們明明白白會有規矩會有規定那麼有它必要該花我們則花"},{"start":453.003,"end":474.212,"text":"那這個部分我想外交部應該可以給一個比較明確的答案那麼至於還有其他包括館長尤其是余大雷他在管理上面有沒有出問題這個部分現在外交部有查清楚了嗎有答案了嗎因為包括現在國民黨要求他兩個禮拜之內回來但是我們要知道外交工作尤其是剛剛我們提到的"},{"start":475.973,"end":476.674,"text":"所以部長這兩個問題外交部查清楚了嗎?"},{"start":494.068,"end":507.023,"text":"採購的部分我想都是依法依程序相關的規範辦理至於說個別的項目外界有一些不同的這個意見涉及到"},{"start":508.462,"end":508.722,"text":"那這有超出預算嗎?"},{"start":535.24,"end":560.87,"text":"他都是需要經過我們秘書處還有我們的會計單位同意還有核可所以這個程序上是沒有問題所以說認定上那當然就是把它解釋清楚那立法委員也有要這個資料我們也有給那當然有些說因為什麼用秘因為涉及到外管他判斷這些項目可能會涉及到一些機敏性但是內容的部分都有讓委員可以知道"},{"start":561.69,"end":574.761,"text":"那至於說管理上確實在第一線打仗壓力很大那同仁特別辛苦我們一定要能夠相互的扶持因為我們是一致要對外那內部的管理要該檢討改革都應該不斷的來精進"},{"start":579.244,"end":601.773,"text":"好 本席就要講的是不要讓第一線不論是基層或者是代表國家的外交官能夠感覺上好像他們的努力沒有受到重視那不論是基層或者是代表的助管的這個外交官代表其實都是同樣的對為外交來做努力那麼這個部分還是請部長要注意好謝謝"},{"start":606.974,"end":609.384,"text":"接下來,許巧欣委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154345","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726cc1cb8bdaeb2ce10f21a3f23b3ad13ea2b8981cfbc017771bbee16801113b211b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"09:55:47 - 10:05:18","影片長度":"00:09:31","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:55:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:05:18+08:00","duration":571,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":319,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（9時56分）主席、各位委員。請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：辛苦了。今天的主題非常重要，你們的報告指出近5年農林漁牧就業人口遞減，這是一個事實。112年我國農林漁牧業就業人口計50.9萬人，比111年減少2.1萬人，如果跟108年相比的話，更是減少了5萬人，這真的是一個非常嚴重的數字，而且從年齡層來講，都是中高齡者，並且不斷呈高齡化，這是事實，其他的勞工也是一樣。這和我們臺灣的人口結構也有關係，第一個就是大家年齡增加了，然後又因為很嚴重的少子女化，我們面臨的這些問題從這個圖表裡面可以看得非常、非常清楚。如果從你們書面報告當中的近5年（106年到111年）常僱及臨時員工短缺情形來看，也可以瞭解實際的狀況。另外，根據勞動部的報告，截至113年5月底，在臺農業移工計7,529名，其中以從事農林牧或養殖漁業工作最多。","現在在臺灣，除了農業的部分，其實其他一般的勞工包括製造業、營造業各方面也都缺工，所以部長，你們在行政院到底有沒有跨部會討論過這方面的問題？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，其實缺工的現象除了農業以外，其他的行業也有普遍缺工的情形，所以缺工是一個滿嚴肅的議題，我們其實都有在做跨部會的討論，特別是跟勞動部，有一部分是在爭取，就是當本國勞力不足的時候，怎麼樣適當引進一些外籍移工來做輔助，這個部分我們都有在做跨部會的討論。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：其實我在第9屆的時候就建議行政院應該要成立一個少子女化辦公室，但是他們不理不睬，完全沒有！因為這是臺灣很重要的問題啊！現在不是只有農林漁牧跟一般營造業等各方面的勞工缺工，未來我們的軍人也是，以後都要用外籍軍人啊！現在願意去當兵的人越來越少，薪水又很低，所以這是一個非常嚴重的問題，我就不知道為什麼行政院一直不成立少子女化辦公室，來推動、解決這方面的問題。當然這個很多責任都是在衛福部跟行政院，這是一個很嚴肅、很重大的問題，在這裡也很難跟你要求，當然這是農民的問題，也是需要解決的部分。","好，接下來要談雞蛋的問題，我是第一次談超思進口蛋，當這個事件發生的時候，真的是不可思議，作為農委會，以前叫農委會，依照畜牧法第二十五條成立的財團法人中央畜產會這樣一個單位，他們進口蛋，然後農業部要補助，但補助都要審核啊！一億七千多萬，補助要審核啊！我這個外行的想也知道，一個超思這麼小的資本額，然後它要進口，它哪知道巴西有蛋呢？部長，巴西進口多少蛋？"],["陳部長駿季：應該是五千多萬顆，總計是一億五千多萬顆，而巴西的部分是五千多萬顆。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：巴西多遠啊？巴西離臺灣多遠？"],["陳部長駿季：多遠啊？我現在沒辦法給你……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：蛋當然是沒有辦法保存，一定是壞蛋嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，沒有，不能這樣講，因為整個……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：事實上，部長不要替他們說話……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，不是，你說巴西進來的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我不要讓你牽扯……"],["陳部長駿季：都是壞蛋，因為整個雞蛋進口有冷鏈系統，經過海運部分，而不是說那麼遠以後進來的都是壞蛋，這個我覺得要澄清。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：喔！你沒有實際調查，你不寫調查報告，又拿不到他們正確的……按照你們的說明，我都看了啊！你們的說明說你們沒有調查權，也沒有去調查，所以不要……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我是針對蛋的部分。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有錯，它那個船到底設備是不是很完整，我是懷疑啦！最主要的是，在這麼短的時間，他怎麼知道巴西有蛋，對不對？絕對是全部從中央畜產會來的，我不講說你們農業部有怎麼樣勾結，從中央畜產會到外交部到什麼、什麼，全部是一條鏈啦！不然它怎麼知道？誰知道巴西有蛋？對不對？這個想也知道嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：巴西是全世界供應雞蛋大宗的一個國家。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：至少……你一定要強辯嗎？那就把調查報告給我們啊！"],["陳部長駿季：不是，不是，我現在講的是巴西本身的蛋……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那你就給我調查啊！"],["陳部長駿季：因為巴西這個國家是出口蛋的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：現在你不好好調查，又說你無權調查，它是依畜牧法設置的單位，主管機關是你，這個都還沒有改，要改啊！主管機關是農業部，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：然後是你們捐助成立的，經費都是你們的，相關的這些制度都在，你當然有調查權，怎麼會沒有呢？對不對？好，這個要調查，你說你沒有調查權，是不是交給……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我要跟委員澄清一件事情，就是我們在行政調查部分，針對畜產會都有做內部調查，這沒問題，我們是說我們本身行政權沒有辦法觸及的部分，因為有一些委員質疑貿易商之間的貿易關係到底是什麼樣的關係，因為基本上他們是私法人關係，以農業部的部分，是沒有辦法直接觸及的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，時間關係……"],["陳部長駿季：這兩個是不一樣的，畜產會我們一定會督導。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你們已經有調查的，就認為是你們職權範圍內……"],["陳部長駿季：對，在我們職權範圍內我們會調查。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所調查的，可以提供調查的資料嗎？就是就你們認為的職權範圍內的調查結果啊！"],["陳部長駿季：之前在歷次相關雞蛋的答詢中，我就一直強調……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是……"],["陳部長駿季：從我們的調查裡面……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我現在是需要你提供書面資料。"],["陳部長駿季：可以，我可以提供書面資料。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，提供書面資料。","最後，財團法人法制定之後，你們這些都要依據財團法人法相關機制配合修正，以前是沒有法，所以就根據這個設置辦法，現在已經有財團法人法了，去請教法務部應該怎麼修，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員提醒，我們會來檢視。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：已經很多年了，財團法人法。"],["陳部長駿季：好，非常謝謝，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["主席（鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員代）：接下來我們請楊瓊瓔召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.0178437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.644718750000003,"end":16.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.46284375,"end":18.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.242218750000003,"end":27.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.562843750000003,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.11096875,"end":31.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.127218750000004,"end":32.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.10596875,"end":34.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.603468750000005,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.81784375,"end":45.407843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.77909375,"end":46.994093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.500343750000006,"end":49.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.65596875,"end":54.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.62159375,"end":57.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.861593750000004,"end":59.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.44346875,"end":63.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.61596875,"end":74.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.14159375,"end":77.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.29721875,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.42346875,"end":81.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.27971875,"end":84.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.09784375000001,"end":87.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.10159375,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.61596875000001,"end":91.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.18534375,"end":94.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.27346875,"end":101.98971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.85034375000001,"end":104.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.89221875000001,"end":109.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.48221875,"end":110.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.32159375,"end":116.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.70471875000001,"end":118.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.76346875,"end":123.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.21409375,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.34034375,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.42409375,"end":132.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.66846875000002,"end":137.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.42284375,"end":142.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.99159375000002,"end":145.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.96159375000002,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.80096875,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.26909375,"end":150.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.07909375,"end":152.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.88471875000002,"end":154.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.90971875,"end":156.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.42846875,"end":158.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.49971875,"end":160.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.17034375,"end":161.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.72284375,"end":163.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.34284375000001,"end":167.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.93721875,"end":170.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.36284375000002,"end":172.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.42159375,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.45721875,"end":194.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.24096875,"end":196.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.22784375,"end":199.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.48909375000002,"end":202.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.86846875,"end":205.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.92284375000003,"end":207.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.89721875,"end":211.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.14971875,"end":212.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.75721875000002,"end":215.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.57096875000002,"end":219.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.15284375000002,"end":220.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.19471875000002,"end":222.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.57409375,"end":224.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.56534375,"end":228.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.10471875000002,"end":230.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.54346875000002,"end":234.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.86346875,"end":236.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.39909375000002,"end":239.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.48284375000003,"end":242.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.45284375000003,"end":244.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.76909375000002,"end":246.42284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.97971875000002,"end":250.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.96221875,"end":254.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.45534375000003,"end":256.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.54784375,"end":259.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.26034375,"end":261.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.13346875,"end":263.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.98971875,"end":267.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.24221875,"end":276.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.11846875000003,"end":278.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.16034375000004,"end":280.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.52284375,"end":283.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.30721875,"end":285.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.58534375,"end":291.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.37346875000003,"end":293.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.20846875,"end":296.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.38534375,"end":298.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.49471875,"end":299.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.28784375000004,"end":300.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.35096875,"end":302.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.92034375000003,"end":306.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.98721875,"end":308.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.84346875,"end":309.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.56909375000004,"end":310.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.22284375000004,"end":314.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.47534375000004,"end":317.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.85471875,"end":319.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.18346875000003,"end":323.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.81159375000004,"end":324.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.12346875000003,"end":326.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.98409375,"end":327.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.24534375,"end":330.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.62471875,"end":334.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.67471875,"end":336.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.07534375,"end":338.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.03721875,"end":338.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.96096875,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.85096875000005,"end":345.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.56784375,"end":345.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.17096875000004,"end":348.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.81221875,"end":350.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.74409375000005,"end":351.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.01409375000003,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.03096875,"end":351.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.08159375,"end":351.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.43596875000003,"end":351.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.33034375,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.63409375000003,"end":356.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.66721875,"end":360.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.63721875000005,"end":360.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.08846875,"end":363.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.33284375000005,"end":374.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.05846875000003,"end":365.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.84159375,"end":374.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.21284375000005,"end":375.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.26346875,"end":375.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.73596875000004,"end":375.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.17471875,"end":382.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.92471875,"end":392.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.37909375000004,"end":393.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.38721875000005,"end":396.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.09971875,"end":399.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.93471875,"end":402.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.95534375000005,"end":404.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.52471875000003,"end":405.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.61721875,"end":407.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.56221875,"end":409.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.50284375,"end":409.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.97534375000004,"end":410.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.17784375,"end":411.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.01721875000004,"end":419.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.93159375000005,"end":421.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.65284375000005,"end":422.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.44159375000004,"end":423.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.33596875,"end":425.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.09096875,"end":427.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.38596875,"end":432.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.64721875000004,"end":435.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.32534375,"end":443.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.02534375000005,"end":446.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.40471875000003,"end":449.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.42471875,"end":452.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.39471875000004,"end":454.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.09909375,"end":456.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.80346875000004,"end":458.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.40221875000003,"end":459.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.39784375000005,"end":462.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.52409375,"end":462.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.96284375000005,"end":463.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.24534375,"end":467.46846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.24471875,"end":468.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.12221875000006,"end":471.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.92346875000004,"end":473.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.59409375,"end":475.06221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.55159375000005,"end":476.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.90159375,"end":477.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.88034375,"end":481.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.57596875,"end":493.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.20284375000006,"end":504.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.50096875,"end":504.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.45846875,"end":504.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.84659375,"end":508.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.02784375000005,"end":506.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.12034375,"end":517.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.28409375,"end":515.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.5659687500001,"end":519.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.8147187500001,"end":520.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.0803437500001,"end":523.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.29096875,"end":530.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.75409375,"end":535.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.1840937500001,"end":532.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.4497187500001,"end":533.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.64784375,"end":535.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.32284375,"end":536.0147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.60096875,"end":539.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.0815937500001,"end":540.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.3303437500001,"end":542.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.52409375,"end":544.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.32971875,"end":546.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.42221875,"end":547.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.86096875,"end":548.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.1940937500001,"end":549.5147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.86909375,"end":551.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.38346875,"end":557.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.59784375,"end":569.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.72284375,"end":567.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.0265937500001,"end":569.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.5959687500001,"end":569.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.8234687500001,"end":572.04284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":26.925,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天財委員請做詢問。主席、各位委員、請部長。我們再請陳部長。部長、委員長。辛苦了。"},{"start":28.952,"end":44.268,"text":"今天的主題非常重要從你們的報告裡面近5年農林移牧就業人口遞減這是一個事實 112年我國農林移牧就業人口50.9萬人"},{"start":50.68,"end":79.43,"text":"比111年減少2.1萬如果跟108年來比的話更是減少了5萬人真的是一個非常嚴重的數字這個顯示農業人口而且從年齡層來講這個都是高齡者中高齡者而且不斷的會成高齡化這是事實其他的勞工也是一樣當然跟我們的"},{"start":81.17,"end":104.16,"text":"臺灣的這個人口結構也有關係第一個是大家年齡增加了然後又是因為很嚴重的這個少子女化都是一個面臨的一個問題所以從這個圖表裡面你可以看得非常非常的清楚那這個整個從106到111如果我們從這個"},{"start":111.397,"end":121.78,"text":"近5年常顧及臨時員工短缺的情形來看就可以從你們的報告裏面可以怎麼樣去了解實際的一個狀況那這個整個到113年5月底"},{"start":130.492,"end":159.936,"text":"根據勞動部的報告在臺農業移工7529名從事農林移牧及養殖移業工作最多現在在臺灣除了我們的農業的部分其實其他的一般的勞工製造業營造業各方面也都切"},{"start":161.229,"end":168.562,"text":"所以這個部長啊你們在這個行政院到底有沒有跨部會的討論過這方面的問題?"},{"start":171.411,"end":171.631,"text":"這個我在"},{"start":198.637,"end":223.78,"text":"應該是上上一屆第9屆現在是第11屆其實我在第9屆的時候就建議建議行政院應該要成立一個少子女化辦公室但是他們不理不睬完全沒有因為這是臺灣很重要的問題現在不是只有農林螢幕跟一般營造各方面的勞工未來"},{"start":225.615,"end":250.009,"text":"未來我們的軍人也是以後都要外籍軍人了現在願意去當兵的越來越少那薪水又很低所以這個部分這是一個非常嚴重的問題我就不知道為什麼這個行政院一直不成立這個少子女化辦公室的一個推動怎麼樣去解決這方面的問題"},{"start":251.235,"end":268.704,"text":"所以當然很多責任都是在衛福部跟行政院這個部分是一個很嚴肅很重大的一個問題所以這裡也很難跟你要求這是我們農民的一個問題這個是要去解決的部分接下來還是要談"},{"start":281.567,"end":295.983,"text":"我第一次談超市淡超市進口淡當這個事件發生的時候真的是不可不可思議了作為一個以前叫農委會"},{"start":297.621,"end":324.577,"text":"農委會依照稀木法第25條成立財團法人中央續產會然後進口這個農業部要補助你要補助補助都是要審核一億七千多萬補助要審核我這個外行的想也知道"},{"start":326.175,"end":341.106,"text":"第一個超市這麼小的資本額然後他要進口他哪知道巴西有蛋啊部長巴西進口多少蛋應該是巴應該是"},{"start":341.892,"end":355.981,"text":"五千多萬顆因為總計是一億五千多萬顆那巴西的部分巴西五千多萬顆巴西離臺灣多遠啊多遠啊那個蛋蛋是沒有辦法保存嘛一定是壞蛋嘛"},{"start":356.704,"end":374.349,"text":"沒有沒有我跟委員這樣不能這樣講喔因為整個事實上部長不要替他們說話不是不是你說巴西進來的都是壞蛋因為整個雞蛋進口他有冷鏈的系統他經過海運的部分不是說那麼遠以後進來都是壞蛋喔這個我覺得要澄清喔這個"},{"start":376.289,"end":405.129,"text":"你沒有實際調查你又不寫調查報告你又拿不到他很正確的按照你們的說明我都看了你們的說明說你們也沒有調查前你們去調查所以不要沒有我是針對蛋的部分沒有到底他那個船到底有沒有完成那個設備是不是都很完整我是懷疑這麼短的時間最主要他怎麼知道巴西有蛋"},{"start":406.647,"end":408.408,"text":"巴西是全世界供應雞蛋的一個大宗的國家"},{"start":438.379,"end":467.207,"text":"你一定要搶變嗎?那就把調查報告給我嗎?不是不是,我說我現在講就是說巴西本身的蛋因為巴西的國家是出口蛋的現在你又不好好調查你又說你沒有無錢調查他是依矽目法設置的主管機關是你這個都還沒改啊要改啊主管機關是你農業部是對不對然後你建築成立的經費都是你的"},{"start":468.291,"end":474.201,"text":"啊相關的這些制度都在你當然有調查權啊怎麼會沒有呢對不對"},{"start":476.923,"end":504.222,"text":"好 這個是要調查 你說你沒有調查錢就交給不是 我要跟委員澄清一件事情就是說我們在行政調查的部分我們針對續展會都有做內部的調查 這沒問題我們說我們本身行政權沒有辦法去觸及的就是因為有些委員認為就是說貿易商之間的貿易的關係到底是什麼樣的關係那他們基本上是司法人的關係那以農業部的部分是沒有辦法直接觸及的所以"},{"start":505.603,"end":506.224,"text":"對,是在我們的職權範圍內我們會調查。"},{"start":519.821,"end":522.662,"text":"最後財團法人法制定之後你們這些就要配合修正了"},{"start":547.475,"end":549.256,"text":"好,謝謝委員提醒,我們會來檢視。"}]}},{"id":"154343","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154343","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c002270a0e5077a8f21a3f23b3ad13ea21377aa0ad8b68879ef8a19ad8d4174405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:45:14 - 09:55:40","影片長度":"00:10:26","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:45:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:55:40+08:00","duration":626,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":244,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時45分）謝謝主席，我想請陳部長以及勞動部陳主秘。"],["主席：請兩位，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。說實話，超思蛋的事情能夠扯這麼久，我們也真的是服了農業部，就是很簡單的缺蛋，然後要進口把它補足的問題，竟然可以扯這麼久，也讓整個國會改革的合理化更具正當性。國會改革本來就是應該的，可是從這個過程當中我們看到，其實光要讓行政部門的黑箱打開來是多麼地不容易，所以我在想，立法院要有調查權這部分是很重要的。","不過我們今天最主要是講「農業移工政策改善措施」這個部分，所以我在這邊也針對整個農業移工的部分就教於部長及勞動部主秘。我想請教，因為整個移工的部分，逃跑移工的問題真的很嚴重，到今年2月為止數字超過八萬五千人，我想勞動部應該……資料是很清楚的。然後我發現每次碰到逃跑移工的部分，勞動部這邊的說法都是直接表示擬修法重罰非法雇主、非法仲介，可是每次都這樣用，4月份碰到這個問題的時候，我看到新聞資料當中你們也還是這樣講。過去這麼多年以來，每次勞動部都是這樣回應，可是說要提修法，然後都沒有提。4月份你們也特別提到，今年6月份會開始處罰，也打算要再提修法，請問這個部分大概什麼時候會正式送到立法院？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：謝謝委員的垂詢，之前我們針對就業服務法要重罰非法僱用和非法媒介這個部分，原來的政策方向一直是如此。那在5月……"],["鄭委員正鈐：政策方向如此，可是很多年……"],["陳主任秘書世昌：對，然後5月……"],["鄭委員正鈐：據本席瞭解，108年不就送進行政院……"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是，那行政院審議之後……"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是怎麼都沒有送到立法院？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：因為不同的利害關係人對於這個議題的思考、關注點不大相同，所以一直在做社會共識的建立當中。5月何部長上任後，他認為單單用嚴刑峻法不見得能夠完全解決這個問題，所以希望我們能夠從想辦法增加雇主可以有合法僱用的空間，包括員額上的一些鬆綁條件……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以何部長現在是要送還是不送？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：目前我們整個法案，已經從行政院申請要撤回來重新再研議當中。"],["鄭委員正鈐：要撤回來再重新研議？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是，回到部裡面……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，後續進度怎麼樣，給本席一個很清楚的說明。因為我們很希望，如果說要怎麼樣去做，能夠解決整個臺灣的移工缺的問題，要怎麼樣去補足，這很重要，那移工政策部分肯定要有更清楚的一個說明，而不是一直在這邊pending，碰到問題就找了一堆藉口。好，謝謝主秘。","我們看到，在我國整個產業缺工的狀態當中，最嚴重的三個部分大概就是農業，然後是營造業和長照，我想這部分應該是很清楚的一個狀態。所以我們今天就針對農業缺工的部分就教陳部長，因為我看到你們的報告資料裡頭，就是農業移工政策改善措施書面報告裡面，你提到其實我們目前開放農業移工是1.2萬人嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：很清楚。然後勞動部核發出來的聘僱許可人數，到目前為止是8,505人，很清楚，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你也特別提到，我們今年年底預計1.2萬人會用罄，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以，我們常態性的缺工是1.2萬人，可是季節性的缺工是20萬人次，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：這是全部包括在一起的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：全部包括在一起是什麼意思？"],["陳部長駿季：就是1.2萬人裡面有一部分是做季節性的，有一部分是做常態性的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。我這邊也有整個列出來，就是季節性的是外展農務的部分……"],["陳部長駿季：對，2,472人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我知道，所以我要提的狀態是，人次是怎麼定義的，怎會有20萬人次？"],["陳部長駿季：人次是從主力農家裡面去抽樣，然後去詢問他們，如果這一戶有缺工的需求，我們就把它當做戶數去計算，有一部分是它可能是缺幾個人，我們就會去算……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以人次的「次」的概念不是用一天來算，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：他一次可能是一、兩天……"],["鄭委員正鈐：不是用一天來算，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，那我想問一下，當1.2萬人用罄之後，是不是會持續開放更多的人數進來？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，其實我們也非常擔心年底如果滿了以後才去申請太慢了，會有一個空窗期，所以我們現在已經啟動一些調查，調查的結果是大概還需要8,000人、在這個階段還需要8,000人，所以我們已經啟動了，就是跟勞動部去爭取這樣的一個8,000人……"],["鄭委員正鈐：另外的8,000人嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，8,000人，所以我們希望最後增加到2萬，因為爭取還要一段時間，我們希望能夠銜接到年底用完的時候，馬上就可以又有8,000人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，謝謝。我要特別提到有關外展農務的部分，因為外展農務就是很針對季節性的支援，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：目前你們提出來的數字是開放人數3,000人（雖然我看到另外一個統計數字是稍高一點，但人數是一樣的），可是我要提的情況是，外展農務目前還沒有滿額，有一個很大的問題就是因為這有季節性、會有農閒的時候，那麼農閒的時候要怎麼去補充足夠的工作量？有沒有可能跨部會，包括勞動部、內政部跟衛福部，讓我們外展農務的移工在農閒的時候能夠跨業去支援？有沒有可能？"],["陳部長駿季：我分兩個部分跟委員報告，一個部分就是農閒的時候因為原來的外展服務是不能跨區的，所以當這個區域閒的時候就比較麻煩，所以我們正在推動可以跨區服務，一個東西收穫的時候他可以跟著一直走，所以他幾乎每天都有一樣的工作可以做。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以現在開放到可以跨區……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們現在已經在試辦……"],["鄭委員正鈐：那有沒有可能可以跨業別？"],["陳部長駿季：跨業的部分我們曾經努力過，但是不同的行業它有勞動契約……"],["鄭委員正鈐：就是非技術性的工作有沒有辦法去跨業支持？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我們還會跟勞動部討論，因為有一些公司週休二日，我們都希望週休二日可以來農業，但是相對的，他說農業很忙，結果禮拜一就打瞌睡了，所以這牽涉到不同產業的特性。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，我會提到跨業支援其實是要解決外展農務的季節性農閒問題，所以請農業部和勞動部相關單位去做一個跨部會的協調。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會來討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我接下來要講的狀態是，我們看到一份監察院的資料，在這份資料當中，移工失聯率以農業體系為最高，因為這是112年的數字……"],["陳部長駿季：目前大概是11.9%，12%左右，有降下來了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你說農業的部分是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，農業的部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你要特別提到農業部分現在並沒有比一般的數字來得高，是一樣高的，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，差不多。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們8萬5,000人跟74萬的移工來說，算起來也就是大概11%左右。"],["陳部長駿季：對，11%，因為目前失聯的大概是3,000人左右……沒有，總共啦！移工的部分有將近500人，所以是11%左右啦！"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以你說現在監察院提供的數字是比較舊的數字，現在最新的數字農業移工失聯的比率大概是11%左右，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，那這個部分再請部長這邊到時候再給我們更詳細的數字。","我這邊要提到一個狀態是……"],["陳部長駿季：對不起，我剛才看過了，應該是12.14%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：12.14%嘛！OK。","那我要提到一個狀態是，因為現在很多其他產業的移工，就是黑工的狀態很多都集中在農業部門……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在很多茶園、果園裡面，據說基本上都是逃跑的外勞，這個部分我希望農業部這邊能夠想一個更完整的方式，不要讓農業體系因為缺工太嚴重，而去容納了很多其他產業的逃跑外勞，導致我們的社會當中出現另外一個不安定的狀態，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解，我想我們會努力。"],["鄭委員正鈐：農業缺工的情況我們很理解，可是我們希望農業不要變成逃跑外勞集中的大本營。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解，我們會努力想辦法降低這樣的現象。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.603468750000001,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.04159375,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.28096875,"end":20.719718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.49596875,"end":22.457843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.829093750000002,"end":30.996593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.38471875,"end":69.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.18034375,"end":80.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.64284375000001,"end":111.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.13159375000001,"end":130.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.47034375,"end":131.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.64721875,"end":150.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.48909375,"end":150.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.13409375,"end":150.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.18471875,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.97784375,"end":155.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.72846875000002,"end":181.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.82096875000002,"end":155.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.88034375,"end":183.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.13721875000002,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.16596875000002,"end":202.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.63409375,"end":191.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.19096875000002,"end":192.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.57721875000001,"end":222.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.84846875000002,"end":224.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.19409375,"end":227.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.43846875000003,"end":244.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.92096875000001,"end":246.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.33409375000002,"end":249.78096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.45596875,"end":253.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.10096875000002,"end":273.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.64221875000004,"end":280.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.82784375,"end":274.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.47659375,"end":291.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.12034375,"end":293.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.97659375,"end":294.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.02721875000003,"end":297.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.63471875000005,"end":294.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.67659375,"end":299.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.39346875,"end":303.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.90346875,"end":303.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.17346875000004,"end":319.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.86471875,"end":309.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.09034375000005,"end":324.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.37284375,"end":323.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.45284375,"end":332.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.02534375000005,"end":344.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.23471875,"end":347.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.09096875,"end":345.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.91346875000005,"end":351.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.02284375000005,"end":358.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.96221875000003,"end":359.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.04659375,"end":359.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.11409375,"end":359.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.56971875000005,"end":364.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.07534375,"end":383.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.01159375000003,"end":367.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.65096875,"end":381.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.83596875,"end":390.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.03846875000005,"end":384.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.53596875000005,"end":386.95784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.73784375,"end":440.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.88409375000003,"end":399.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.03596875000005,"end":400.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.87346875000003,"end":445.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.80971875,"end":443.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.07534375,"end":445.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.44221875000005,"end":450.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.03221875,"end":452.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.97284375000004,"end":455.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.14971875000003,"end":459.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.12846875,"end":456.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.31784375,"end":464.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.99221875,"end":469.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.13534375,"end":473.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.42534375,"end":478.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.09596875000005,"end":476.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.17159375000006,"end":485.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.07346875,"end":484.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.28846875000005,"end":490.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.79409375000006,"end":507.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.67471875,"end":498.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.42846875000004,"end":508.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.52534375000005,"end":522.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.2278437500001,"end":522.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.26159375,"end":522.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.53159375,"end":525.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.63659375,"end":532.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.3828437500001,"end":531.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.13346875,"end":544.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.6428437500001,"end":542.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.7097187500001,"end":555.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.04971875,"end":564.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.7622187500001,"end":559.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.1115937500001,"end":565.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.17471875,"end":574.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.03846875,"end":576.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.3290937500001,"end":576.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.7509687500001,"end":577.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.0378437500001,"end":620.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.39909375,"end":615.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.5634687500001,"end":615.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.6772187500001,"end":617.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.5672187499999,"end":619.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.40659375,"end":624.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.09784375,"end":625.9753437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.095,"end":30.55,"text":"謝謝主席,我想請一下陳部長還有我們勞動部陳主秘好,我們請兩位,謝謝部長好,說實話,操失蛋的事情能夠扯這麼久我們也真的是服了農業部,這是一個很簡單的一個蛋的"},{"start":31.505,"end":31.685,"text":"﹚鄭先生﹚"},{"start":56.502,"end":79.55,"text":"不過因為我們今天最主要要講說農業的移工政策改善措施這個部分所以我在這邊也針對整個農業移工的部分來就教於部長跟我們勞動部的主密我想請教一下因為那個整個移工的部分逃跑移工的部分真的是問題很嚴重到今年的2月"},{"start":87.156,"end":99.686,"text":"每次碰到逃跑移工的時候勞動部這邊的說法都是直接表示說你修法重罰非法雇主非法仲介可是每次都這樣用"},{"start":100.486,"end":119.095,"text":"在4月份的時候碰到這個問題的時候我看到新聞資料當中你們也還是這樣講可是過去這麼多年每次勞動部都是這樣回應可是說提修法然後都沒有提那你們在4月份這邊的時候你們也特別提到今年"},{"start":121.136,"end":130.38,"text":"6月份的時候會開始處罰然後也打算要再提修法的部分請問這個部分大概什麼時候會正式送到我們立法院來?這應該是老總部"},{"start":134.197,"end":157.086,"text":"謝謝委員的一個吹詢這個部分之前我們在針對就業服務法要重罰非法僱用跟非法媒介這個部分呢原來的政策方向一直是如此政策方向如此可是很多年據本席瞭解108年不是就送進行政院可是怎麼都沒有送到立法院來呢因為在不同的這個"},{"start":158.426,"end":159.287,"text":"所以何部長現在是要送還是不送?"},{"start":184.367,"end":200.384,"text":"目前我們在整個法案已經重新政院申請要撤回來重新再研議當中後續進度怎麼樣給本席一個很清楚的一個說明那因為我們很希望說如果說要怎麼樣去做能夠解決整個臺灣的一個移工"},{"start":203.752,"end":204.132,"text":"在整個的那個我國產業"},{"start":225.208,"end":249.3,"text":"在缺工的狀態當中最嚴重的三個部分大概就是農業然後營造業跟長照我想這部分應該是很清楚的一個狀態所以我們今天就針對農業缺工的部分來就教一下陳部長因為我看到我們的報告資料裡頭下一頁先看下一頁我看下一頁的資料裡面"},{"start":251.442,"end":277.339,"text":"右邊是你的那個農業部的一個報告就是農業移工政策改善措施的書面報告裡面你提到說我們其實目前開放農業移工是1.2萬人是很清楚然後勞動部核發出來的聘僱許可人數到目前為止是8505人很清楚對不對是然後你也特別提到說我們今年年底預計1.2萬人會用慶對不對是"},{"start":280.581,"end":297.132,"text":"所以這1.2萬人提到了就是我們常態性的缺工是1.2萬人可是我們季節性的缺工是20萬人次對不對對這個是全部包括在一起的理解那我全部包括在一起是什麼意思1.2萬人裡面"},{"start":299.754,"end":303.056,"text":"對 我知道 所以說我要提的狀態說我們提的人次的部分是怎麼去定義20萬人次的問題"},{"start":322.168,"end":347.167,"text":"人次是怎麼去定義這個人次的問題我們那個人次是從主力農家裡面去抽樣以後然後去詢問他這一戶如果有缺工的需求我們就把它當作戶數去計算那有一部分是他可能是缺幾個人有沒有我們就會去算人次的次的概念不是用一天來算對不對"},{"start":348.287,"end":373.905,"text":"不是用一天來算嗎?對不對?那我想問一下當我們1.2萬人用慶之後的時候是不是會再持續開放更多的人數進來?我跟委員說明就是說其實我們也非常擔心說年底如果滿了以後才去申請太慢了會有一個空窗期所以我們現在已經啟動了一些調查調查的結果大概還需要8000人在這個階段還需要8000人"},{"start":375.005,"end":390.254,"text":"所以我們現在已經啟動了就是要跟勞動部去爭取這樣的一個8千人所以我們希望說最後增加到2萬因為爭取還有一段時間我們希望能夠銜接到年底的時候用完的時候他就可以用8千人來處理"},{"start":391.135,"end":407.516,"text":"OK 部長謝謝那我這邊我要特別提到一個有關於外展農務的一個部分因為外展農務這邊的時候他就是很針對季節性的一個去支援對不對那我們看到目前這邊的時候呢你們提出來的數字是"},{"start":408.477,"end":427.215,"text":"拜訪人數是3000人可是我看到另外一個統計數字的時候是稍高一點可是人數是一樣的可是我要提的情況是說我們對於外產農務當中的時候目前還沒有滿額有一個很大的問題就是因為他們有季節性所以他們會有農閒的時候那農閒的時候要怎麼去補助"},{"start":427.836,"end":428.356,"text":"我跟委員"},{"start":446.643,"end":461.724,"text":"報告分兩個部分一個部分就是說有時候農閒的時候因為原來的外展服務是不能跨區的所以當這個區域閒的時候它就比較麻煩所以我們現在推動可以跨區服務因為一個東西收穫的時候它可以跟著一直走"},{"start":462.245,"end":483.218,"text":"所以他幾乎每天都有一樣的一個工作所以現在開放到可以跨區那有沒有可能可以跨業別跨業的部分我們曾經努力過但是不同的行業他有勞動契約特別是就非技術性的工作有沒有辦法去跨業之前我們這個還會再跟勞動部跑因為有一些公司他週休二日我們都希望說週休二日可以來農業但是相對的"},{"start":485.379,"end":500.994,"text":"他說農業很忙結果禮拜一就打瞌睡了所以他牽涉到不同產業的特性因為我覺得這部分我會提到一個跨業的一個支援的部分其實就是要解決就是外在農務這邊的時候他會有季節性農閒問題所以也請這邊的時候跟農業部跟相關的跟勞動部相關的單位我們去做一個跨部會的一個協調對我們會來討論"},{"start":508.921,"end":531.224,"text":"我最下我要講的狀態是我們看到所有經察院這邊一個資料齁經察院這邊提出來資料當中的時候我們看到移工失聯率齁農業的體系就是比例最高的那這個數字齁因為它是112年的目前大概11.92%左右你說農業的部分是不是對農業的部分"},{"start":532.184,"end":552.029,"text":"所以你要特別提到說農業部分現在並沒有比整個一般的數字來的高是一樣高的 對不對我們8萬5千人跟74萬個移工來說算起來也大概是11%左右對11%因為現在目前整個失聯的大概3000人左右大概有沒有總共啦移工的部分有將近500人所以他11%左右啦"},{"start":555.151,"end":569.846,"text":"所以你說現在監察院提供的數字是比較舊的數字以現在最新的數字的時候農業的移工系統的比例在11%左右對不對那這個部分我就再請部長這邊到時候再給我們更詳細的數字那我這邊我要提到一個狀態是現在很多"},{"start":576.212,"end":601.505,"text":"我要提到一個狀態是因為現在很多其他產業的移工就黑工的狀態很多都集中在農業部門那在很多的茶園、果園裡面據說基本上都是逃跑的外勞那這個部分的時候我希望農業部這邊的時候能夠想一個更完整的方式不要讓農業體系"},{"start":603.046,"end":603.066,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154341","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154341","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c7fcb1090dc28759c4b539dbd63c1cc911377aa0ad8b688792eac597dcc0aeba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"09:39:15 - 09:52:55","影片長度":"00:13:40","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:39:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:52:55+08:00","duration":820,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":137,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時39分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["馬委員文君：部長，今天我們有幾個議題，我首先想請教，民主基金會在您看來重不重要？它成立以後成效如何？"],["林部長佳龍：民主基金會很重要，自成立以來發揮很好的二軌外交的效果，而且跨黨派的參與，跟國際的交流合作成果豐碩。特別是我們的代理執行長，我聽了他完整的簡報，我覺得立法院支持的預算能夠發揮這麼大的效果，非常的感謝，我們會繼續努力。有一些民主基金會的業務，我待會請執行長……"],["馬委員文君：不用，業務我們很清楚，因為民主基金會每年在編預算的時候，大概就會做一些初步的報告，我們現在比較希望知道的是，既然部長覺得它很重要，也做得很好，它在業務上的推動其實是要持續的。我想請教一下，在我們基金會董事會推舉執行長的議程當中，部長提議聘用執行長卻被擱置的原因是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：第8屆第1次董事會產生了董事長跟副董事長，而董事長因為主持立法院的會議請假，由我代理，因為他推薦的人也沒有在場，但董事們很想瞭解董事長所提名的人，所以經過大家討論，也經過表決決定擱置，下次會議再來決定。"],["馬委員文君：盧業中，大家會不太認識他嗎？就以他個人……"],["林部長佳龍：很多人在說卡「盧」，但是「盧」是誰？他們都想成另外一個「盧」了。"],["馬委員文君：因為我們所有行政院……部長，包括行政院或者總統提名很多人選讓立法院去投票的時候，他們也是一樣的，我們都會看很多的資料，不可能我們成員、董監事們沒有看過他的背景資料。如果不知道的話，在這裡我簡單再說一下，因為之前黃玉霖執行長，如果你們就之前執行業務狀況非常肯定的話，他是一個土木工程的背景，過去也曾經在臺中市政府、交通部服務過，可是他在基金會的時候也是受到肯定的。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：現在盧業中本身，如果他本身就是國際關係的專業，又是外交這方面的一個專業，他來擔任這樣的職務，有什麼樣的問題嗎？如果這空窗期讓我們覺得變成政黨的惡鬥，這樣是很不好的，因為如果預算要可以通過……從過去到現在，成立後經過了國民黨、經過了民進黨執政，其實都沒有人干涉過多，都希望二軌外交可以順利地推動，如果讓我們有這樣的感受，我們希望可以重新來檢視很多預算的運用。","比如說過去馬政府時期，我們的外交預算當時有22個國家，我們的預算二百二十幾億，這個沒有包括機密預算，可是當時機密預算並不高，都是5億左右。到蔡政府2024年，我們的預算高達314億，這個還不包含機密外交的預算，我們只剩下12個國家，可是我們的預算越編越高，然後一直跟國人說我們做得非常好！但是我們邦交國失去了，我們過去可以用觀察員的身分參與WHA，但近8年都沒有辦法，我們所有的國際組織沒有一個可以參加的！像今天的報告裡面，其實也差不多是投降了啦，就是說我們要用更務實的方式，你說有人幫我們講話，過去我們還實質參加，我們編的預算還更少。","為什麼我特別提到預算的部分？因為我們也很清楚地知道我們的外交工作並不是那麼容易，所以在經費預算上面，其實大概也都是儘量的給予支持，如果今天要用政黨惡鬥，或者要用政治的態度來干擾，我相信這樣對我們的外交工作並沒有好處。部長怎麼看？"],["林部長佳龍：是。實質對人選，每個人都見仁見智，優秀的人才……"],["馬委員文君：部長，您怎麼看？"],["林部長佳龍：盧先生確實也很優秀，我意思是說，因為它有董事會的一個程序，董事會認為應該由董事長……"],["馬委員文君：過去有沒有？過去董事長有沒有親自去介紹、去說明？比如說黃玉霖被提名的時候，我們的董事長有沒有去那裡說明？"],["林部長佳龍：那個時候，董事長提名應該都會跟董事會說明。"],["馬委員文君：他是土木工程的背景，是董事長親自去說明、介紹嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們執行長……"],["馬委員文君：董事長，是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我的判斷是啦！因為……"],["馬委員文君：過去也都是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：黃玉霖前執行長當過海基會主任秘書……"],["馬委員文君：過去也都是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：他的行政經驗很豐富……"],["馬委員文君：海基會……"],["林部長佳龍：人選是見仁見智。"],["馬委員文君：部長，行政經驗豐富不代表他的外交經驗豐富。今天有一個背景不錯、沒有什麼特別瑕疵的人，如果讓我們感受你就是卡……"],["林部長佳龍：不是，是董事會的董事們希望能夠由董事長來說明。"],["馬委員文君：這樣子對未來外交業務上沒有很好的幫助，我今天特別再提出來。老實說，我們也希望……如果你在外交工作沒有辦法交出好成績，沒有辦法做得很好，還拼命花人民的納稅錢，還要在這裡搞東搞西，我們未來希望可以更嚴格地檢視外交工作。","現在這麼重要的駐美代表都發生這樣的問題，我們不知道他實際的情況是怎麼樣。可是我們現在發現兩個點，第一，他是一個資深的外交官，也當過政務次長，沒有理由不知道這些細節。有兩個理由，第一個，有人要搶位子，這個就做得很難看；第二個，他持續沿用過去的陋規，覺得沒有什麼。最讓我們覺得應該檢視的是外交部發言人，他是用恐嚇的方式，認為應該在內部舉發就好；就是因為內部官官相護，所以他才會爆出來。這是兩種不同的模式，第一個是陰謀論，第二個就是吹哨者，我們對吹哨者是用這樣的態度，所以外交部不斷地發生事情。","如果我們要用政治態度看待所有的外交業務，包括這樣的基金會，我們未來會更慎重地、更嚴謹地檢視，不可以讓你們一直浪費我們的民脂民膏。我們希望很多國家幫我們講話，我們送出了什麼？我們的護國神山台積電去設很多很重要的廠，其實政府在後面發揮了很大的影響力。這些在在都顯示我們一直犧牲我們的利益，浪費我們的金錢，可是沒有得到實質的幫助。像巴勒斯坦今年4月份要加入聯合國的時候，聯合國安理會超過9票，在有12票同意的情況之下仍然不能成案，很重要的因素就是美國投下反對票。我想請教部長，目前中華民國是不是也面臨這樣的問題？"],["林部長佳龍：聯合國跟周邊組織有它的……大家都知道，除了聯合國憲章之外，現實上受到中共很大的影響。當然……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我現在說的是巴勒斯坦也受到美國反對，今天為什麼美國反對？這裡面大部分安理會的成員國，包括聯合國大會，有143個國家其實是同意的，而且非常支持巴勒斯坦，可是他們還是遭到否決。今天我們中華民國會面臨……我們一直在講中共阻撓，任何國家都有自身的考量。我們應該怎麼樣一致對外，在拓展外交上，大家共同發揮我們的影響力，而不是對內？這是我今天特別要講的。部長有什麼看法？接下來推動外交或在業務上還有很多需要朝野持續合作，我很期待知道部長到底怎麼想。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["馬委員文君：剛剛我說的民主基金會，要怎麼樣解決這樣的問題？如果執行長一產生，他就可以馬上執行。這兩個部分部長簡單回答，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，其實那一天第8屆第1次會議就有推舉韓院長做董事長，外界先前有一些猜測，其實並沒有卡誰。至於執行長，因為董事長提名後要董事會同意，董事會有同意權……"],["馬委員文君：你覺得他接下來會不會同意？"],["林部長佳龍：我們也尊重董事會當天的決定。"],["馬委員文君：部長，你覺得他接下來會不會同意？"],["林部長佳龍：這個還沒有進入實質。我覺得就是要溝通，讓董事們能夠支持董事長提的人選，就像行政部門提了人選，立法院也要經過一個程序。不能提名的人沒到，被提名的人也沒到，董事會覺得想瞭解更多，也許要更大的支持啊！但是沒有辦法對話。我作為一個代理的主席，我只是說好，把它擱置，交由下一次韓董事長主持的時候來提，然後董事們可以跟他瞭解這個人選。"],["馬委員文君：部長會不會協助？之前你也推薦過執行長，這個部分你看到現在推薦這樣的人選，你會不會認為他有什麼樣的瑕疵、他不適任或者他有什麼問題？"],["林部長佳龍：我尊重董事會的決定，我也希望程序能夠很順的進行。"],["馬委員文君：我請教的是部長的看法，您對這個人選的看法為何？你總是有看法吧？因為你現在是外交部長。"],["林部長佳龍：其實專業方面，在我們政治學界都有一定的肯定，但是他的外交政策是不是跟賴總統的方向一致……"],["馬委員文君：我請教的是部長的看法。"],["林部長佳龍：也許董事會有一些……包括委員也有這樣詢問。"],["馬委員文君：如果是這樣，有很多預算你根本就不能過。如果你要用這樣的看法……"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得這要把它分開……"],["馬委員文君：在中華民國裡面……"],["林部長佳龍：現在還在進行程序，把程序走好。"],["馬委員文君：我們是一個民主自由的國家……"],["林部長佳龍：至於人選是大家來看……"],["馬委員文君：你在這裡可以說臺獨，你也可以在這裡說統一……"],["林部長佳龍：尊重董事會。"],["馬委員文君：如果照我們憲法的規定，現在憲法的規定到底是什麼？大家都可以在這一塊土地上面暢所欲言，而不是誰可以影響人家應該怎麼想、應該怎麼做、應該只可以講什麼樣的話。我再次提醒，如果這樣做對我們的外交一點幫助都沒有，如果你從小地方就要這樣卡，未來很多……尤其現在執政方、執政黨如果再這樣，一直都沒有能力拓展我們的外交，一直花錢，未來就會不好做。部長同意嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得把程序走好，多溝通。"],["馬委員文君：部長同意嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我想人選的提名有他的道理，但是董事會有其職權，董事會如果……"],["馬委員文君：部長，你會推薦嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不是我……"],["馬委員文君：你會推薦嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我不會推薦……"],["馬委員文君：不是，韓國瑜董事長已經推薦了，我說您會卡他嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不會。"],["馬委員文君：不會？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：韓院長都沒有人卡他了，這是最大咖的。"],["馬委員文君：我希望是這樣。"],["林部長佳龍：沒有什麼卡誰的問題，把程序走好。"],["馬委員文君：我希望是這樣。"],["林部長佳龍：人選尊重董事會。"],["馬委員文君：我希望是這樣。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["馬委員文君：我希望是這樣。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。","接下來請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.6215937500000001,"end":1.4990937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.71846875,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.67034375,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.36221875,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.379093750000003,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.037218750000001,"end":29.562218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.372218750000002,"end":54.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.55409375,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.31721875000001,"end":89.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.14346875000001,"end":90.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.08846875,"end":92.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.28221875000001,"end":124.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.62784375000001,"end":125.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.83409375000001,"end":126.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.32346875,"end":128.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.48784375000001,"end":128.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.85471875000002,"end":128.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.92221875,"end":131.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.00659375,"end":133.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.68971875,"end":173.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.65346875,"end":231.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.09596875000003,"end":238.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.38596875000002,"end":244.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.00534375,"end":245.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.13596875000002,"end":249.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.45596875,"end":272.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.54096875,"end":283.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.12159375000005,"end":311.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.32409375000003,"end":311.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.34096875,"end":311.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.28596875,"end":329.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.69034375,"end":316.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.97721875,"end":317.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.46471875000003,"end":339.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.26471875000004,"end":345.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.22221875,"end":344.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.88846875,"end":348.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.00596875,"end":351.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.14096875,"end":351.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.90846875,"end":352.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.02659375,"end":363.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.81971875000005,"end":352.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.86596875000004,"end":356.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.04284375000003,"end":356.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.71346875,"end":359.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.05909375000005,"end":373.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.98096875000005,"end":413.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.60534375000003,"end":383.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.87346875000003,"end":415.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.10096875000005,"end":419.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.16784375000003,"end":428.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.07784375,"end":432.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.00971875000005,"end":435.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.81096875000003,"end":438.78096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.08034375000005,"end":444.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.72096875000005,"end":445.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.90221875000003,"end":447.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.24784375,"end":449.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.32346875,"end":487.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.62971875000005,"end":490.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.61659375000005,"end":507.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.47909375000006,"end":508.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.74471875000006,"end":509.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.92159375000006,"end":513.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.09409375,"end":528.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.3490937500001,"end":532.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.09534375,"end":537.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.7903437500001,"end":546.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.18596875,"end":554.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.2565937500001,"end":619.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.8684687500001,"end":608.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.69784375,"end":634.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.8515937500001,"end":639.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.1128437500001,"end":639.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.6440937500001,"end":642.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.11659375,"end":641.9053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.1415937500001,"end":652.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":652.9584687500001,"end":657.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":657.9365937500002,"end":666.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":666.72846875,"end":682.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.35909375,"end":690.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":683.29971875,"end":683.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.73721875,"end":695.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.92221875,"end":701.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.5928437500002,"end":702.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":701.0522187500001,"end":701.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.24596875,"end":706.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.25846875,"end":704.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.9584687500001,"end":710.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.3759687500001,"end":719.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.7678437500001,"end":711.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.77971875,"end":717.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.9778437500001,"end":718.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.9734687499999,"end":727.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.96909375,"end":724.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.7609687500001,"end":779.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.95471875,"end":741.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":780.0947187500001,"end":789.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":780.6684687500001,"end":781.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":788.36346875,"end":789.5615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":790.9622187500001,"end":794.0503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":791.3334687500001,"end":793.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.42596875,"end":798.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":796.9865937500001,"end":797.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":798.9778437500001,"end":799.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":799.5009687500001,"end":800.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":799.9397187500001,"end":800.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":800.41221875,"end":800.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":800.6147187500001,"end":809.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":804.4284687500001,"end":806.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":806.45346875,"end":811.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":810.6384687500001,"end":810.9422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.8659687500001,"end":813.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":814.51971875,"end":816.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.6965937500001,"end":817.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":817.74284375,"end":820.12221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.589,"end":2.31,"text":"部長早部長早部長我想請教一下今天因為我們幾個議題那我想首先請教民主基金會在您看來重不重要然後他在他成立以後他的成效如何"},{"start":30.404,"end":53.811,"text":"民主基金會很重要自成立以來發揮很好的惡鬼外交的效果而且跨黨派的參與跟國際的交流合作成果豐碩特別我們代理執行長我才聽了他完整的簡報我覺得立法院支持的預算能夠發揮這麼大的效果非常的感謝我們要繼續努力那有一些民主基金會的業務我待會請執行長"},{"start":58.973,"end":80.103,"text":"民主基金會每年在編預算的時候大概就會做一些初步的報告那我們現在比較希望知道既然部長覺得他很重要然後也做得很好然後他的在業務上的推動其實是要持續的那我想請教一下在我們基金會董事會推舉執行長的議程當中部長提議"},{"start":85.51,"end":108.25,"text":"執行長的任用、聘用,他被擱置的原因是什麼?因為在第8屆第一次董事會產生了董事長跟副董事長之間董事長他請假,主持立法院的會議,由我代理因為他推薦的人,他也沒有在場"},{"start":109.071,"end":109.751,"text":"農業中大家會不太認識他嗎?"},{"start":125.885,"end":128.147,"text":"很多人在說卡爐卡爐那我獨是誰,他們都想著另外的獨了。"},{"start":147.688,"end":172.31,"text":"成員這些董監事沒有去看過他的背景資料如果不知道的話在這裡我簡單再說一下因為之前黃玉琳執行長就如果你們對於之前執行的業務狀況非常肯定的話他是一個土木工程的背景過去也曾經在台中市政府交通部服務過可是他在基金會的時候也是受到肯定的"},{"start":175.47,"end":185.615,"text":"現在盧業忠本身如果他做的是他本身就是國際關係的專業又是外交各方面這一方面的一個專業那他來擔任這樣的職務有什麼樣的問題嗎因為如果"},{"start":192.778,"end":196.701,"text":"這空窗期讓我們覺得他是變成政黨的惡鬥這樣是很不好的因為如果要預算可以通過從過去到現在成立經過了國民黨經過了民進黨執政其實都沒有人去干涉過多都希望他的惡鬼外交其實是可以順利的推動如果讓我們有這樣的感受我們希望可以重新來檢視很多的預算的運用比如說"},{"start":221.937,"end":249.094,"text":"過去馬政府時期我們的外交預算當時有22個國家我們的預算224億27億這個沒有包括精密預算可是當時的精密預算並不高都是5億左右到蔡政府2024年我們的預算高達314億這個還不包含精密外交的預算"},{"start":250.489,"end":263.863,"text":"我們只剩下12個國家可我們的預算越編越高然後一直跟國人說我們做得非常好可我們邦交國失去了我們WHA連觀察員的身份過去有8年都可以參與現在都沒有辦法那我們所有的國際組織沒有一個可以參加的像今天的報告裡面"},{"start":273.633,"end":280.676,"text":"其實也差不多是投降了啦就是我們要用更務實的方式你說有人幫我們講話過去我們還實質參加我們編的預算還更少為什麼我特別提到預算的部分是因為我們也很清楚的知道我們的外交工作並不是那麼容易所以在經費預算上面其實大概也都是盡量的給予支持"},{"start":298.402,"end":310.814,"text":"可是如果今天要用政黨惡鬥或者要用政治的這樣的一個態度來干擾我相信這樣對我們的外交工作並沒有好處 部長怎麼看是 實質的對人選每個人都見仁見智 優秀的人才部長怎麼看"},{"start":317.401,"end":320.402,"text":"過去董事長有沒有都親自去介紹去說明去講比如說黃玉玲被提名的時候我們的董事長有沒有去那裡說明"},{"start":340.302,"end":345.645,"text":"因為那個時候,董事長應該提名,應該都會跟董事會說明他是土木工程的背景,是董事長親自去說明嗎?去介紹嗎?董事長,是嗎?我的判斷是啦,因為其實黃毓林執行長當過海基會主任秘書"},{"start":359.292,"end":361.493,"text":"行政經驗豐富不代表他的外交經驗豐富今天如果有一個背景不錯沒有什麼特別瑕疵的人如果讓我們的感受你就是卡這樣子對我們未來在外交業務上面"},{"start":378.484,"end":382.287,"text":"沒有很好的一個幫助我今天特別再提出來老實說我們也是希望你在外交工作如果你沒有辦法交出好成績沒有辦法做得很好還拼命的花人民的納稅錢還要在這裡搞東搞西那我們未來希望可以用更嚴格的來檢視我們的外交工作包括你現在這麼重要的一個駐美的一個代表都發生這樣的問題我們不知道他的實際情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":408.564,"end":431.961,"text":"可是我們現在發現兩個點第一他是一個資深的外交官他也當過政務次長沒有理由他不知道這些細節可是兩個理由第一個就是有人要搶位子這個就做得很難看第二個就是他過去的漏歸持續沿用因為覺得沒有什麼"},{"start":433.069,"end":453.816,"text":"可是最要讓我們覺得應該要檢視的是我們的外交部的發言人他是用恐嚇的方式說我們應該在內部來做舉發就好就是因為內部關關相護啊所以他才會爆出來這是兩種不同的模式一個是陰謀論第二個"},{"start":455.496,"end":473.807,"text":"就是吹哨者可是我們對於吹哨者是用這樣的態度所以外交部不斷的發生事情如果我們要用政治的態度來看待我們所有的外交的業務包括像這樣的一個基金會我們未來會更慎重的會更嚴謹的來檢視不可以讓你們一直浪費我們的名指名高包括我們說"},{"start":481.531,"end":509.233,"text":"希望很多國家來幫我們講話我們送出了什麼我們的護國神山台積電他很重要的很多的設廠其實政府在後面發揮了很大的影響力這些債債都顯示我們一直在犧牲我們的利益在浪費我們的金錢可是我們沒有得到實質的一些幫助像巴基斯坦"},{"start":510.947,"end":536.812,"text":"他們這一次要加入聯合國的時候他們的情況巴勒斯坦不好意思巴勒斯坦這一次今年4月份要加入聯合國的時候在聯合國安理會他超過9票有12票的同意的情況之下仍然不能成案很重要的因素就是美國投下了反對票那我想請教我們目前中華民國是不是也面臨這樣的問題"},{"start":540.811,"end":544.595,"text":"市長,我現在說的是巴勒斯坦也受到美國的反對,今天為什麼美國反對"},{"start":561.971,"end":567.673,"text":"這裏面所有大部分的安理會的成員國或者包括聯合國大會有143個國家其實是同意的而且是非常支持巴勒斯坦可是他們還是遭到否決今天我們中華民國會面臨我們一直在講中共阻撓中共阻撓所有任何國家都有他自身的考量所以我們應該要怎麼樣"},{"start":585.18,"end":585.3,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":620.577,"end":636.21,"text":"其實那天第8屆第一次會就有推舉韓院長做董事長所以外界先前有一些猜測其實並沒有去卡誰那至於說執行長因為要董事長提名是要董事會同意那董事會有同意權"},{"start":637.331,"end":651.889,"text":"這個我們也尊重董事會當天的決定這個還沒有進入實質啦我是覺得就是要去溝通嘛讓董事們能夠支持董事長提的人選就像說如果我們行政部門提了這個人選"},{"start":653.15,"end":680.408,"text":"來立法院也是要經過立法院大家有一個程序你不能這個提的人也沒到被提的人也沒到董事會大家覺得說我想了解更多也許要更大的支持但是沒有辦法對話就是我做一個代理的主席我只是說好把他擱置交由下一次函董事長做主持的時候他來提然後董事們可以跟他大家來"},{"start":681.289,"end":683.611,"text":"我尊重董事會的決定我請教的是部長的看法"},{"start":703.328,"end":727.036,"text":"您的看法對這一個人選你總是有看法吧其實專業在我們政治學界都有一定的肯定但繼續說他的外交政策的方向是不是跟賴總統方向一致這個也許董事會有一些包括委員也有在詢問如果是這樣那有很多的預算你根本就不能過"},{"start":728.857,"end":734.581,"text":"如果您要用這樣的看法因為現在在中華民國裡面我們是一個民主自由的國家您在這裡可以擺動您在這裡也可以說創意如果叫我們的憲法來規定您現在憲法來規定到底是什麼這是大家都可以在這一塊土地上面"},{"start":747.87,"end":751.975,"text":"暢所欲言而不是誰可以影響人家應該怎麼想應該怎麼做你應該只可以講什麼樣的話如果這樣對我們的外交一點幫助都沒有我再次提醒如果這樣做對我們的外交一點幫助都沒有如果你從小地方要這樣卡"},{"start":764.571,"end":786.432,"text":"那未來在我們很多尤其是我們現在執政方執政黨如果在這樣子有很多一直都沒有能力去拓展我們的外交然後一直花錢在未來就會不好做了部長同意嗎我覺得把程序做好多溝通那人選我想提名有他的道理但是董事會有他的職權那經過董事會部長你會推薦嗎"},{"start":791.381,"end":792.722,"text":"謝謝馬委員下面我們請沈波洋委員來質詢"}]}},{"id":"154338","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154338","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c81543d5d627c048821a3f23b3ad13ea21377aa0ad8b68879710c6b9019e726cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:32:26 - 09:45:10","影片長度":"00:12:44","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:32:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:45:10+08:00","duration":764,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":111,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時32分）主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。上一次你們回函說，超思的案子已經移送北檢了，請問什麼時候移送的？"],["陳部長駿季：我如果沒有記錯的話，是5月底、6月初的時候。"],["黃委員國昌：5月底、6月初的時候？"],["陳部長駿季：我記得是這樣，如果我沒有記錯的話。"],["黃委員國昌：行政調查報告什麼時候做出來的？"],["陳部長駿季：行政調查報告的過程大概在5月……5月初，5月大概第……"],["黃委員國昌：是4月還是5月？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在調查，因為它的調查……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，什麼時候做好的？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，最後的定版大概在5月的應該是7號前後。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們有一個定版完整的行政調查報告嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是說我必須要跟委員講……"],["黃委員國昌：好，定版的行政調查報告什麼時候可以交出來？"],["陳部長駿季：對不起，我沒有聽清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你不是說到5月的時候，有一個定版的行政調查報告嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那份行政調查報告，什麼時候可以交出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我們提供給委員的就是行政調查報告，但是因為部分……"],["黃委員國昌：是全文嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，部分的資訊我們已經移請地檢署調查的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：我們把時序先講清楚，你行政調查報告完整做完以後，然後你接下來移送北檢，現在交出來的行政調查報告只有部分的內容，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼不提供完整的行政調查報告？你說會涉及到偵查不公開，然後我秀給你看，當初在處理88會館事件的時候，一樣有刑事偵辦，我們的高檢署、新北地檢署、內政部警政署完整的行政調查報告全部都交出來，為什麼農業部的作法不一樣？難道我們的高檢署、地檢署，我們的內政部所交出來的行政調查報告都是違法的？你還是堅持不交就對了嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，別的部會我不清楚，但是在我們的行政調查報告裡面，有涉及到相關的已經移交給地檢署的部分，這部分我們是根據政府公開資訊法裡面的相關規定去做處理的。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，你有你的主張，你的主張站不站得住腳，我們以後會繼續追下去，今天時間的關係，我還有很多問題要問。你們的次長跟媒體說，日本進口的雞蛋沒有行政的問題，結果話才講完一天，你們就公開承認，裡面最起碼就有關於倉儲的部分、運輸的部分違反了政府採購法，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：針對倉儲跟運輸的部分，他是應該進行那個……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是不是違反政府採購法？"],["陳部長駿季：對，是違反政府採購法。"],["黃委員國昌：錢你會追50%回來嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對，錢會追回來。"],["黃委員國昌：好。針對2022年超思進口雞蛋，超思的服務費付了多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：111年嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：對，2022年。"],["陳部長駿季：111年並沒有服務費的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有服務費的部分？所以超思……"],["陳部長駿季：有合約的時候才有服務費，沒有合約的話，是用到貨買斷的方式去處理。"],["黃委員國昌：到貨買斷的價格怎麼計算？"],["陳部長駿季：到貨買斷的價格，根據畜產會的說明，因為每個月都有的時候，他會根據當月日本的相關資訊跟我們國內的相關資訊，包括它的關稅等等去做一個綜合評估。"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼評估的，數據可不可以交出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這部分是一個相關的執行細節，他那個評估……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你現在講沒有付超思任何服務費，那我現在的問題就在想說，原來超思是在做功德的，那個價格裡面，超思從日本進來一公斤均價多少錢？一公斤均價多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：我不是非常清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：來，計算完以後，一公斤的均價大概124塊，124塊這個價格到底怎麼出來的，它的成本結構細項可不可以交出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我不是非常清楚這個最後價格的細項，因為他們本身是買斷的方式，那買斷的方式，他們的經費是有一個……"],["黃委員國昌：你看，你們列出來的淨重多少，發票的價格多少，除完了大概就是一公斤多少錢。你現在講說裡面沒有服務費，那現在我就在質疑，現在大家在問的是超思的利潤，就是在一公斤124塊裡面超思拿了多少錢，這個也不能問？"],["陳部長駿季：關於這部分，我可以跟委員說明，我們可以提供我們付給相關的每一批蛋，不管是任何的貿易商，我們都會給他一筆經費，有經費的部分，該付多少錢，我們是根據……"],["黃委員國昌：大家在關心的事情是，那個價格到底怎麼決定的嘛！你到現在，我跟你說，你既然沒有服務費……"],["陳部長駿季：它的價格不是一個公式，那個價格絕對不是一個很硬邦邦的公式，如果說有一個硬邦邦的公式，那就可以……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，那你總要有一個決定價格的機制吧？"],["陳部長駿季：有，有一個機制，我跟你講，這個機制是可以提供的……"],["黃委員國昌：好，那決定價格的機制內容，可不可以提供？還是也涉及偵查不公開，也不能提供？"],["陳部長駿季：就我所瞭解，決定的機制是可以提供，一定有一個決定的機制，但是決定的細節……"],["黃委員國昌：好，決定的機制可以提供，需要多久？"],["陳部長駿季：決定的細節……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我要問畜產會。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？一個禮拜可以吧？"],["陳部長駿季：應該可以。"],["黃委員國昌：錢早就付了嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國昌：因為你一開始口口聲聲跟大家講說，只有超思有能力進口，這個是你當初在回答的時候答復的內容，然後你說是日本……"],["陳部長駿季：我記得我沒有說只有超思才有能力進口，我沒有這樣說……"],["黃委員國昌：來來來來來來來，來來來，這是你說的，「關於超思，如果你去問其他的蛋商，沒有一個人不認識他，過往本身有他的一個能力」，你回答給我的是說，沒有其他的貿易商有意願進口，這個是你們白紙黑字寫的內容欸！沒有其他的貿易商有能力進口，這是你們講的欸！這是你們白紙黑字回答給我的欸！"],["陳部長駿季：我們說的是「意願」的部分，「意願」，那不是「能力」。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們來看一下，這個是從關務署調出來的資料，2022年有從日本進口雞蛋的A廠商、B廠商、C廠商、D廠商、其他廠商2家，最後兩家廠商關務署說因為太敏感了，有間接識別的風險，所以要混在一起合併提供，要不然看得出來，我知道他在講最後兩家廠商，其中有一家非常敏感的就是超思。來，看一下B廠商，從3月就有進，4月就有進，你們跟亮采之間的合約是不是2月到4月之間，是吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那奇怪了，那亮采後面進來的這些蛋到哪裡去了？是給中央畜產會嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，亮采的部分，它的合約是2到4月，那4月以後的所有買的蛋，不管是任何貿易商進來的，都是用貨到付款的方式，這個非常清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我現在還是在問你，當初你跟大家講的是只有超思有意願，但我從關務署調出來的資料看到，從這個B廠商進口的數量，我合理判斷，這個B廠商……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，不能用合理的判斷，因為B廠商……C廠商，任何的那麼多廠商，他不一定會願意跟畜產會合作，他可能……自己的管道……"],["黃委員國昌：我們來看一下具體的數量，因為主席站起來了，最後我只問一個最關鍵的問題，輸入許可由亮采取得，你們最後付錢給超思的總共有多少？這個數量你不可能不知道吧？輸入許可是亮采的，付錢給超思的有多少？"],["陳部長駿季：這個絕對有資料，但是我沒辦法記那麼多正確的數字。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個數字什麼時候可以提供？"],["陳部長駿季：這應該可以提供，這沒問題啊！因為有發票，每一筆都可以提供。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！到目前為止，你說每一筆都可以提供，我給部長看，我從6月14日索資的東西到現在還沒回復，我的辦公室幾乎是每天打電話去求農業部，什麼時候可以回復？答案永遠都是還在簽核、還在簽核、還在簽核。今天部長說可以提供，非常好！請問部長需要多久？不要讓我辦公室的同仁每天打電話去拜託你們的國會聯絡人，要一個資料我好像在乞討一樣！需要多久？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，就是每一筆我們付款資料的日期應該都已經很清楚，這個表單應該都有，我回去趕快去瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛的問題是，由超思取得輸入許可，我跟你們調檢驗所的輸入許可，局裡面的人說好了，但是在部裡面簽核，現在公文流浪到哪裡我不知道！我今天請教，我非常卑微地要求你、非常卑微地請求你，這個數字什麼時候可以提供？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我不敢，因為我非常尊重立法委員……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個什麼時候可以提供？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得立法委員的索資是問政需求，我們一定會提供。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候可以提供？"],["陳部長駿季：我們提供的一定就是，我們的發票拿到以後……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候可以提供？由亮采取得的輸入許可，付錢給超思的有多少？"],["陳部長駿季：這兩個……"],["主席：這樣子好不好？因為時間的關係……"],["陳部長駿季：這樣的話，跟你剛才問的索資是不一樣的，一般索資的是……"],["主席：部長，由於時間，後面的委員都在等待。"],["陳部長駿季：你索資的是超思本身的進口部分嘛！"],["主席：部長，是不是就剛剛黃國昌委員所需要的資料，你就在一個禮拜之內提供給黃國昌委員？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們要先釐清一下索資的內容……超思……"],["黃委員國昌：索資的內容很簡單，雞蛋進來要不要輸入許可？"],["陳部長駿季：因為我們是買斷，是針對誰給我們的……"],["黃委員國昌：雞蛋進來要不要輸入許可？"],["陳部長駿季：是要輸入許可。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請你把輸入許可都交出來，我看輸入許可上面的名義是誰就知道了。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們不是用合約的方式，我們是用買斷的方式，然後重點……"],["黃委員國昌：這個你已經說過了。"],["陳部長駿季：對……"],["黃委員國昌：請你回到問題本身……"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我本身，我不知道……"],["黃委員國昌：輸入許可不可以提供？"],["陳部長駿季：我不知道我買蛋的時候需不需要他檢附輸入許可是一個要件，但是我付錢的資訊一定有。"],["黃委員國昌：輸入許可是誰發的？"],["陳部長駿季：關務署發的啊！還是誰發的？"],["黃委員國昌：不是，雞蛋輸入檢疫的許可是你們農業部發的耶！"],["陳部長駿季：檢疫的許可是我們。"],["黃委員國昌：可不可以提供？"],["陳部長駿季：檢疫的部分，如果是有的話，我們就應該可以提供。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？因為到目前為止，我索資到現在還要不到！"],["陳部長駿季：一個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？這個也需要一個禮拜？我早就發公文去要了耶！"],["陳部長駿季：他們說已經簽出署裡面了。如果簽出署裡面了就應該比較快。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我剛剛沒有講錯！我早就要了嘛！你公文還在旅行嘛！需要多久？"],["主席：我們還是針對問題，請農業部就剛剛委員所提出，他要的資料有兩項，提供你的……"],["黃委員國昌：不只，我剛剛只是藉由詢答，那個索資的部分，他們那邊都有公文，我要的資訊一項、一項、一項、一項，我寫得非常地清楚，全部在後面，我亮給召委看，這個是6月14日索資的內容；這個是6月19日索資的內容，包括你剛剛答應的輸入許可、簡易的輸入許可那件事情，需要多久？三天之內給，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：它如果出來，三天之內一定可以給。"],["黃委員國昌：三天之內可以給嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：簡易證的部分嘛？"],["黃委員國昌：前面索資的部分也一併三天之內給，可以嗎？如果我問的問題，你說：我不知道，我沒有資訊，這是機密。那你就這樣回復就好了嘛！"],["主席：索資部分，剛剛最後一點，就是三天內回復給黃委員，其他的部分請一個禮拜之內務必要給黃委員，好不好？因為他從6月14、19日已經陸續請你們提供資料。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解、瞭解。"],["主席：好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：這樣可以嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。我還是一句話，就是我們相關的資訊如果涉及到提供給檢調單位，依法不能提供的時候，我們不會提供，其他的我們會提供。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啊！你到時候回復的時候寫說基於偵查不公開，不提供。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會備註。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們也請農業部照剛剛所說、約定的時間，請把資料送出，謝謝。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.35096875,"end":6.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.274093750000002,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.872843750000001,"end":13.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.94346875,"end":20.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.90534375,"end":21.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.18346875,"end":28.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.051593750000002,"end":32.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.53221875,"end":37.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.017218750000005,"end":35.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.76346875,"end":41.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.45909375,"end":43.737218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.31096875,"end":45.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.61471875,"end":45.728468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.369718750000004,"end":47.534093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.040343750000005,"end":49.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.17534375,"end":49.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.54221875,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.626593750000005,"end":49.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.30159375,"end":51.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.752843750000004,"end":54.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.16159375,"end":57.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.705343750000004,"end":61.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.17784375,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.713468750000004,"end":61.844093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.877843750000004,"end":62.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.75534375,"end":63.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.55659375,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.09221875,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.83034375,"end":69.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.51784375,"end":71.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.49221875,"end":83.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.96471875,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.95471875000001,"end":84.89534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.96284375,"end":87.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.61221875000001,"end":87.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.96659375,"end":89.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.62034375,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.85659375,"end":93.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.53534375000001,"end":93.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.63659375,"end":93.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.90221875,"end":100.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.53409375000001,"end":104.04846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.33534375,"end":105.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.51221875,"end":107.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.03096875,"end":109.31346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.63409375,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.40596875000001,"end":114.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.18596875,"end":116.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.44721875,"end":119.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.97409375000001,"end":124.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.36159375000001,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.96471875,"end":140.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.07221875000002,"end":141.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.23659375,"end":143.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.85659375,"end":145.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.11784375000002,"end":150.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.96096875,"end":151.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.27721875,"end":153.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.59346875,"end":154.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.26409375,"end":156.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.18784375,"end":158.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.22971875000002,"end":160.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.96784375000001,"end":161.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.67659375000002,"end":162.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.84096875,"end":163.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.56221875,"end":168.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.28284375,"end":174.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.99096875,"end":176.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.00784375,"end":177.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.45471875,"end":180.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.86346875,"end":182.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.70284375,"end":186.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.46159375000002,"end":188.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.87909375,"end":189.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.75659375,"end":189.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.21221875,"end":192.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.59159375000002,"end":193.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.87409375000001,"end":201.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.23159375,"end":203.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.62784375,"end":219.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.35534375,"end":219.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.40596875000003,"end":221.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.85284375,"end":228.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.30346875,"end":230.79659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.20159375,"end":236.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.37784375,"end":238.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.38596875000002,"end":242.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.10659375,"end":246.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.74346875,"end":246.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.96284375000002,"end":247.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.73909375000002,"end":251.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.14346875,"end":257.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.82596875,"end":270.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.08596875,"end":272.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.96721875000003,"end":272.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.42284375,"end":289.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.62471875,"end":278.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.41596875,"end":290.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.97284375000004,"end":291.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.31034375,"end":291.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.64784375,"end":291.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.66471875,"end":308.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.70034375,"end":313.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.70346875,"end":320.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.92284375,"end":314.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.15409375,"end":320.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.28471875,"end":320.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.36909375000005,"end":323.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.15346875,"end":325.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.19534375,"end":330.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.32096875,"end":331.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.96221875000003,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.68346875000003,"end":342.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.28221875,"end":339.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.40409375,"end":340.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.32346875,"end":343.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.62659375000004,"end":346.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.64346875,"end":347.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.97659375,"end":348.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.56721875,"end":349.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.06909375000004,"end":353.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.37659375000004,"end":355.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.11034375,"end":359.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.48534375,"end":361.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.02534375000005,"end":364.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.31596875,"end":366.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.97784375000003,"end":378.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.97596875000005,"end":381.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.22846875000005,"end":384.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.97909375,"end":385.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.99596875000003,"end":386.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.18159375000005,"end":388.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.24909375000004,"end":391.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.58596875,"end":393.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.82159375000003,"end":400.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.39034375,"end":401.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.43221875,"end":413.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.97471875,"end":419.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.33659375,"end":421.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.26034375,"end":425.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.85034375000004,"end":428.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":428.50409375000004,"end":438.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.75971875000005,"end":442.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.62409375000004,"end":445.17659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.53096875000006,"end":447.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.65721875,"end":454.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":451.80846875000003,"end":463.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.49034375,"end":464.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.83596875,"end":468.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.35846875000004,"end":470.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.86034375,"end":472.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.54784375,"end":475.09596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.76659375,"end":478.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":478.23471875,"end":478.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.84221875000003,"end":479.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":479.97284375000004,"end":480.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.02346875,"end":480.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":480.63096875,"end":480.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.76596875,"end":480.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":480.96846875000006,"end":485.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.37346875000003,"end":482.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.65971875,"end":487.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":487.34721875,"end":487.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":489.11909375000005,"end":492.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.17346875000004,"end":495.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.76346875,"end":497.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.23159375000006,"end":501.67409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.65284375000005,"end":507.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.59721875,"end":511.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.37721875000005,"end":512.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.1997187500001,"end":515.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.3047187500001,"end":522.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.53159375,"end":523.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":523.96596875,"end":523.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.0290937500001,"end":525.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":525.0459687499999,"end":532.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.1472187500001,"end":525.4172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":532.8928437500001,"end":534.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.0615937499999,"end":535.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.31846875,"end":538.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.6472187500001,"end":539.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.41909375,"end":542.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.4734687499999,"end":545.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.6840937500001,"end":547.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.60784375,"end":549.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.3247187500001,"end":553.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.3959687500001,"end":555.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":555.9778437500001,"end":560.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":560.5847187500001,"end":563.3015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.82096875,"end":562.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.0359687499999,"end":562.5928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":563.5547187500001,"end":568.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.5122187500001,"end":565.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.57971875,"end":566.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":568.4653437500001,"end":569.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":569.8659687500001,"end":579.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.0347187500001,"end":571.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.61221875,"end":574.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.03409375,"end":574.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.0678437500001,"end":574.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.43909375,"end":576.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.3247187500001,"end":578.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.96159375,"end":581.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":580.53096875,"end":583.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.1003437500001,"end":583.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.85534375,"end":591.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.3772187500001,"end":593.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":593.6597187500001,"end":597.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.83659375,"end":597.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":598.1315937500001,"end":600.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":600.3759687500001,"end":603.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.45159375,"end":604.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":604.27409375,"end":604.3584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.3584687499999,"end":604.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":604.6284687500001,"end":604.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.84784375,"end":605.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":605.23596875,"end":605.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.26971875,"end":608.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":608.9653437500001,"end":614.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":614.66909375,"end":614.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.68596875,"end":619.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":615.4453437500001,"end":616.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":617.50409375,"end":626.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.32971875,"end":627.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":627.61221875,"end":627.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":628.33784375,"end":630.1772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.85659375,"end":630.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.66221875,"end":635.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":634.63221875,"end":636.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":637.18034375,"end":638.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":638.54721875,"end":641.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.7197187500001,"end":642.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.6897187500001,"end":648.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":647.3390937500001,"end":647.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":648.53721875,"end":649.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.6215937500001,"end":650.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.20346875,"end":652.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":652.94159375,"end":652.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":654.76409375,"end":659.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.0209687500001,"end":658.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.0672187499999,"end":659.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":659.23596875,"end":659.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.5903437500001,"end":659.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.0290937500001,"end":660.1809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":660.1809687500001,"end":660.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.19784375,"end":660.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":660.2990937500001,"end":660.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.92346875,"end":661.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.0203437499999,"end":664.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.47596875,"end":662.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.5265937500001,"end":662.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.61096875,"end":663.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.45471875,"end":670.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.74471875,"end":672.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.17909375,"end":686.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.9722187500001,"end":674.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.55659375,"end":690.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.2434687500001,"end":692.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.4797187500001,"end":692.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.5134687500001,"end":692.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.8172187499999,"end":692.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.85096875,"end":692.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.86784375,"end":692.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.96909375,"end":699.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.2222187500001,"end":693.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.5165937500001,"end":700.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":701.57534375,"end":703.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":703.4653437500001,"end":706.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.7140937500001,"end":704.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":706.8403437500001,"end":707.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.6672187500001,"end":711.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.7678437500001,"end":712.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.5734687500001,"end":715.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":715.91909375,"end":716.1553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.1553437500002,"end":716.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.2565937500001,"end":738.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":736.5065937500001,"end":738.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":738.70034375,"end":748.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.8759687500001,"end":753.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":749.0278437500001,"end":749.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":753.29721875,"end":753.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":753.9722187500001,"end":754.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.02284375,"end":754.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":754.2253437500001,"end":754.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":754.47846875,"end":755.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":756.30096875,"end":757.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":758.37659375,"end":763.9622187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.308,"end":32.135,"text":"現在主席是不是麻煩邀請部長我們再請陳部長部長好上一次你們說昌市的案子回函說已經移送北捷了請問什麼時候移送我都沒有記錯是5月底6月初的時候"},{"start":32.731,"end":57.437,"text":"5月底、6月初的時候?我記得。行政調查報告什麼時候做出來的?行政調查報告的過程大概在5月初。是4月還是5月?我們在調查因為...沒有關係,什麼時候做好的?沒有。最後的定版大概在5月的7...應該是7號前後啦。所以你們有一個定版的完整行政調查報告嗎?"},{"start":58.786,"end":60.931,"text":"對,就是說我必須要跟委員講...對不起,我沒有聽清楚"},{"start":67.288,"end":71.09,"text":"剛剛你不是說到5月的時候有一個定版的行政調查報告嗎?"},{"start":71.09,"end":93.459,"text":"那個行政調查報告什麼時候可以交出來?我想我們提供給委員的就是行政調查報告但是因為部分的這些資訊我們已經已檢地檢署的時候地檢調查的時候我們把時序先講清楚啦你行政調查報告完整做完了以後然後你接下來移送北檢現在交出來的行政調查報告是只有部分的內容對不對?"},{"start":93.459,"end":93.479,"text":"是"},{"start":95.106,"end":124.179,"text":"為什麼不提供完整的行政調查報告你說會涉及到偵查不公開嗎來我秀給你看當初在處理八八會館事件的時候一樣有刑事偵辦我們的高檢署、行北地檢署、內政部警政署完整的行政調查報告全部都交出來為什麼農業部的做法不一樣難道我們的高檢署、地檢署、我們內政部所交出來的行政調查報告都是違法的"},{"start":125.404,"end":140.443,"text":"你還是堅持不交就對了嗎?我跟委員報告齁,別的部位我不清楚齁但是在相關的這些我們今天調查報告裡面有涉及到已經移交給地檢署的部分那這個部分我們是根據政府公開制定法裡面的相關的規定去做一個處理的"},{"start":141.258,"end":167.447,"text":"沒關係啊你有你的主張啊你的主張站不站得住腳我們以後會繼續追下去今天實踐的關係我還有很多問題要問你們的次長跟媒體說日本進口的雞蛋沒有行政的問題結果話才講一天你們就公開承認了裡面最起碼就有關於倉儲的部分運輸的部分違反政府採購法對不對"},{"start":170.356,"end":171.417,"text":"針對2022年超市進口雞蛋,超市的服務費付了多少錢?"},{"start":187.626,"end":187.947,"text":"道貨買斷的價格怎麼計算?"},{"start":203.666,"end":218.522,"text":"那到貨買完的價格根據市長會的一個說明是他根據因為他是每個月都有的時候他會根據當月的日本的相關的這些資訊跟我們國內相關的這些資訊包括他的關稅等好去做一個綜合評估"},{"start":219.423,"end":242.46,"text":"怎麼評估的數據可不可以交出來我想這個部分是一個相關的一個執行細節他那個評估沒有關係啊你現在講嘛沒有付超私沒有付超私任何服務費那我現在的問題就在想說原來超私是在做功德的那個價格裡面啊從超私日本進來一公斤均價多少錢"},{"start":245.148,"end":257.423,"text":"一公斤軍價多少錢我不是非常清楚來你計算完了以後一公斤的軍價大概一百二十四塊一百二十四塊這個錢到底怎麼出來的成本結構 細項可不可以交出來"},{"start":258.868,"end":278.442,"text":"我不是非常清楚說這樣子一個最後的價格的一個細項因為他們本身是買斷的方式那買斷的方式他們的經費是有一個你看嘛 你們列出來的淨重多少發票的價格多少除完了大概就一公斤多少錢嘛你現在裡面講說沒有服務費嘛"},{"start":280.884,"end":288.825,"text":"現在我就在質疑啊現在大家在問的是這個超市的利潤在裡面一公斤124塊超市拿了多少錢嘛"},{"start":292.853,"end":310.765,"text":"我可以跟委員說明我們可以提供就是我們付給相關的每一批蛋不管是任何的貿易商我們都會給他一筆經費有經費的部分這個是那這個該付多少錢大家在關心的事情是那個價格到底怎麼決定的嘛"},{"start":311.525,"end":316.667,"text":"你到現在我跟你說你說沒有服務費沒有關係啊那你總要有一個決定價格的機制吧有一個機制我想這個機制是可以提供的我所瞭解"},{"start":333.94,"end":340.625,"text":"決定的機制是可以提供,一定有一個決定的機制,但是決定的細節需要多久?需要多久?一個禮拜可以吧?錢早就付了吧?因為你一開始口口聲聲跟大家講說只有超輸有能力進口嘛"},{"start":356.375,"end":383.635,"text":"這個是你當初在回答的時候答覆的內容嘛然後你說是非凡我記得我說只有超私才有能力進口來來來來來來來來如果超私如果你去跟其他的淡商沒有一個人不認識他過往本身有他的一個能力你回答給我的說沒有其他的貿易商有意願進口這個是你們白紙黑字寫的內容欸沒有其他的貿易商有能力進口欸這是你們講的欸"},{"start":386.024,"end":390.472,"text":"這是你們回答給我白紙黑字的欸來我們來看一下喔這個是關務署調出來的資料"},{"start":395.418,"end":421.061,"text":"2022年有從日本進口雞蛋的A廠商、B廠商、C廠商、D廠商最後兩家廠商他因為說啊太敏感了所以要混在一起要不然看得出來我知道啦他在講最後兩家廠商其中有一家非常敏感的就是超市來看一下B廠商從3月就有進4月就有進你們跟亮采之間的合約是不是2月到4月之間是吧是"},{"start":422.481,"end":442.416,"text":"奇怪,那亮彩後面進來的這些蛋到哪裡去了?是給中央續產會嗎?我跟委員說明齁亮彩的部分是他的合約是2到4月那4月以後的所有的買蛋不管是任何貿易商進來的都是用貨到付款的方式這個非常清楚啊對,所以我現在還是在問你嘛當初你跟大家講的"},{"start":443.686,"end":453.512,"text":"是只有昌司有意願嘛但我從關務署調出來的看從這個B廠商進口的數量我合理判斷啊這個B廠商這個B廠商是我們來看一下具體的數量嘛我最後因為主席站起來了我只問一個最關鍵的問題"},{"start":469.637,"end":483.72,"text":"輸入許可由量財取得,你們最後錢付給超市的總共有多少?這個數量你不可能不知道吧?輸入許可是量財的,錢付給超市的多少?所以這個數字什麼時候可以提供?對啊,到目前為止你說每一筆都可以提供,來來來"},{"start":496.823,"end":523.375,"text":"我給部長看我從6月14日所知的東西到現在沒回覆我的辦公室幾乎是打電話每天去求農業部的什麼時候可以回覆永遠的答案都是還在簽和還在簽和還在簽和今天部長說可以提供非常的好請問部長需要多久不要讓我辦公室的同仁每天打電話去拜託你們的國會聯絡人要一個資料我好像在乞討一樣"},{"start":525.203,"end":539.072,"text":"需要多久?我跟委員說明齁就是每一筆我們付款的資料的日期應該都已經很清楚的這個表但應該都有我有剛剛的問題是由超司取得輸入許可我跟你們調"},{"start":540.458,"end":559.546,"text":"你們檢驗所的輸入許可局裡面的人說好了但是在部裡面簽合現在公文流量到哪裡我不知道我今天請教我非常卑微的要求你非常卑微的請求你這個數字什麼時候可以提供我想我不敢因為我非常尊重立法委員"},{"start":560.986,"end":564.389,"text":"所以這個什麼時候可以提供?什麼時候可以提供?什麼時候可以提供?你這樣的話跟你剛才問的措施是不一樣的,一般的措施的是你措施的是超市的本身的進口的部分嗎?"},{"start":583.923,"end":590.55,"text":"是不是就剛剛黃國昌委員所需要的資料你就在一個禮拜之內提供給黃國昌委員?所知的內容很簡單啊"},{"start":598.191,"end":598.211,"text":"議員：黃國昌"},{"start":628.619,"end":652.8,"text":"黃國昌發的嗎?還是誰發的?不是啦!雞蛋輸入檢疫的許可是你們農業部發的欸檢疫的許可是我們可不可以提供?檢疫的部分是應該如果是有的話我們就應該可以提供可以提供需要多久?因為我到目前為止所知到現在要不到嘛需要多久?這個也需要一個禮盼我早就發公文去要了欸"},{"start":654.775,"end":655.256,"text":"所以我剛剛沒有講錯嘛我早就要了嘛"},{"start":662.045,"end":690.828,"text":"你公文還在履行嗎?需要我講我們還是針對問題那請農業部剛剛委員所提出他有兩項兩項要的資料不只啦我剛剛只是藉由那個巡檔剛剛那個所知的部分公文他們那邊都有啦我要的資訊一項一項一項一項我寫得非常的清楚全部在後面我量給召委看這個是6月14日就要所知的內容這個是6月19日就要所知的內容"},{"start":692.298,"end":693.219,"text":"好,那針對於"},{"start":707.052,"end":728.058,"text":"檢疫症的部分嗎?前面所知的部分一併三天之內給可以嗎?如果我問的問題你說我不知道我沒有資訊這是機密那你就這樣回覆就好了嗎?所知剛剛最後一點就三天內回覆給黃委員其他的部分請一個禮拜之內務必要給黃委員好不好因為他已經從6月14 19已經陸續要給你們這個請"},{"start":736.34,"end":737.401,"text":"我們也請農業部照剛剛所說約定的時間請把資料送出去"}]}},{"id":"154337","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154337","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c8a7e2ff9450c7bb84b539dbd63c1cc911377aa0ad8b68879d4bc19c9f2ed92f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:30:36 - 09:39:03","影片長度":"00:08:27","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:30:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:39:03+08:00","duration":507,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":110,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（9時30分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃委員仁：我們就教賴清德總統的新兩國論，在賴總統就職演說提到，中華民國與中華人民共和國是互不隸屬，並於陸軍官校百年校慶時再次的重申，堅持中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬，請問一下部長，你認同賴總統的說法嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：認同。"],["黃委員仁：好，所以部長同意這個兩國論，我們今天就談到賴總統的論述是在偷換概念，為什麼？刻意把治權和主權混淆，讓臺獨可以借中華民國的殼上市，借殼上市。本席同意兩岸當然是互不隸屬，但是在治權方向，本席特別強調在法理上，依據中華民國憲法，中華民國才有主權的代表性，所謂中華人民共和國是不具有主權的，在外交部代表中華民國處理對外事務，因此本席相信我們的所有外交人員都很清楚，外交代表的就是中華民國主權，這個法理上是很明顯的，賴政府在國會改革法案口口聲聲說要依據憲法，但在國家主權上反而一點都不尊重中華民國的憲法，根本是把憲法當玩物。部長，你認同我的想法還是你還有別的見解？"],["林部長佳龍：因為主權跟治權這種劃分是我們臺灣教科書上這樣寫，事實上主權在民，這個是民主最重要的精神，所以臺灣人民選出我們的政府，包括總統跟國會，怎麼樣確保國民主權就是最根本的。至於涉及到所謂的互不隸屬，是不是因為主權、治權的差異，這些理論有點複雜，我覺得還是回到最根本的主權在民。"],["黃委員仁：所以部長，今天我講兩國論的思維裡面，賴總統把治權和主權混淆也沒關係，本席按照賴總統的思路請問部長，既然是兩國，部長是不是應該建議賴總統把大陸委員會裁掉，並將陸委會併入到外交部，設立外交部中國司？"],["林部長佳龍：我想外交部就代表我們國家主權，因為兩岸關係很特殊，所以我們有設立大陸事務委員會來處理，最主要我們某種程度是承認它啦！因為在臺灣民主化之後，其實我們……"],["黃委員仁：因為我講這個……"],["林部長佳龍：但是它沒有承認我們。"],["黃委員仁：今天我們要分析一下，這個很簡單，外交部主要負責的是什麼？國與國之間的對外事務，陸委會負責的是中華民國臺灣地區與大陸地區的內部事務，既然部長認同賴總統的兩國論，那就應該要有所作為，把大陸委員會併入到外交部的中國司，有沒有必要？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這涉及憲改，可能要朝野來協調，然後溝通、對話。"],["黃委員仁：應該可以協調，今天我提出這個案子就是……"],["林部長佳龍：這涉及到憲改層次。"],["黃委員仁：現在來講，我們應該要朝這個方向來討論，要不然今天兩國之間僵硬到現在沒有一個談判的空間。所以你說大陸委員會有沒有必要性要併入你們外交部？因為外交部是負責國與國之間的關係對不對？這是給你一個思維的方向。"],["林部長佳龍：不過，我跟委員講，因為我們承認它，它不承認我們啊！它如果願意跟外交部交往，我們也是很願意啊，可是它不願意跟我們交往……"],["黃委員仁：我們永遠承認兩岸之間的關係，但是是臺灣不承認對岸的關係，我們只有承認美國跟日本的關係而已嘛，所以這個就是一個思維的因素，我們本是同根生，我們跟對岸之間本來就有這一層的關係，為什麼一直不承認？所以這就是我要講的論述，因為這個論述裡面我是以臺灣原住民身分去看待兩岸之間，不是要用你們的角度去看待兩岸之間，這個就是我要告訴部長的，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["黃委員仁：我另外插個話，上次有特別提到，在你第一次備詢的時候，我特別提到原住民在南島語系的民主裡面，我希望未來推派無任所原住民的代表，還是有任所的原住民代表，希望人選是沒有任何的政黨，而且有學術理論、有正當性的，對外交、未來對原住民事務有推動，有助於國家邦交的前提為代表，可不可以？"],["林部長佳龍：可以，我一定來尋才，請委員可以推薦，我們一起來找出最能夠讓原住民外交發揮的人才，因為臺灣確實有這樣的條件可以做，包括海島或南島語系，相當多原住民事務，我們是可以很積極的來參與……"],["黃委員仁：部長，這一點我絕對相信你有這個能力，一直以來到現在，你從外交部、新聞局到市長、到總統府的秘書長，我絕對相信你可以在不分族群的情況之下，找出一個能人，找出一個人才為國家奉獻，而不是以政黨的角度來看待派任。今天不要說你們的內閣是一個外星人內閣，原民會主委到現在一問三不知，酬庸嘛！酬庸嘛！我們一問三不知，我根本不要問，為什麼？人民失望啦！原住民的國人失望啦！這個就是你們要思考的地方。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["黃委員仁：另外就是我們駐美大使人格操守的問題，俞大㵢遭到爆料挪用公款，這樣的一個國際事件已經造成我們外交部的形象有所衝突，而且要如何提振外交部的形象？今天俞大㵢大使所陳述的問題，他是不是要自我澄清？你們要找出一個原因，如果我們誣賴他，就還他清白，如果是他挪用公款，你們絕對要跟國人有交代，因為你們外交部的形象要樹立起來，不要讓人說外交部派駐的人員是浪費公帑。部長回答。"],["林部長佳龍：目前是沒有挪用公款啦！但是因為採購的程序，有些項目有核可、有些沒有，而核可的部分外界有一些質疑，我們要妥善說明。"],["黃委員仁：我們與徐巧芯已經有共同提出來，希望在兩個禮拜以內請他回來做一個說明，以上，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：我們請馬文君委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":2.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.88284375,"end":3.9290937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.67034375,"end":14.543468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.083468750000002,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.078468750000003,"end":44.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.03659375,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.812843750000006,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.572218750000005,"end":48.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.47471875,"end":51.415343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.41096875,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.03159375,"end":81.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.41909375,"end":123.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.02846875,"end":124.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.20971875000001,"end":128.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.90096875,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.62221875,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.79909375,"end":156.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.79971875,"end":157.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.54221875000002,"end":169.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.66284375,"end":169.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.23221875000002,"end":191.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.46096875,"end":196.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.30409375000002,"end":196.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.32096875000002,"end":196.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.29971875,"end":210.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.20471875,"end":216.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.38971875000001,"end":216.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.09846875000002,"end":217.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.06034375000002,"end":218.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.07284375,"end":244.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.60034375,"end":252.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.02971875000003,"end":251.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.18159375000002,"end":283.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.86909375000002,"end":253.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.02909375000002,"end":256.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.88534375,"end":293.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.26409375000003,"end":327.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.53659375,"end":363.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.97409375,"end":383.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.93721875,"end":418.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.02034375000005,"end":420.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.47159375,"end":477.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.82971875000004,"end":477.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.35284375000003,"end":478.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.36971875,"end":489.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.03471875,"end":497.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.18096875000003,"end":498.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.19221875000005,"end":507.63096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.21,"end":2.262,"text":"主席有請部長請部長"},{"start":12.691,"end":29.065,"text":"我們就叫我們賴清德總統的新兩國論在賴總統就此演說就提到中華民國與中華人民共和國是負不隸屬"},{"start":30.726,"end":50.881,"text":"那並對入境官校百年孝慶時再次的重申堅持中華民國和中華人民共和國這個夫不利俗請問一下部長你認同我們賴總統的說法嗎認同好所以部長同意這些兩國論那我們今天就談到"},{"start":53.172,"end":79.706,"text":"賴總統的論述是在偷換概念為什麼?刻意把自前和主前混淆自前和主前混淆讓台獨可以借中華民國的殼上市借殼上市所以本席同意兩岸當然是互不隸屬但是在此自前方向"},{"start":81.607,"end":110.867,"text":"本席在特別強調在法理上依據中華民國憲法中華民國才有主權的代表性所謂中華人民共和國是不具有主權的在外交部代表中華民國處理對外事務因此本席相信我們的所有外交人員都很清楚在外交代表就是中華民國主權那這個法理上是很明顯的賴政府在國會改革法案"},{"start":111.627,"end":128.457,"text":"口口聲聲說要依據憲法但在國家主權上反而一點都不尊重中華民國的憲法根本是把憲法當亡物部長你認同我的想法還是你還有別的見解"},{"start":131.65,"end":156.161,"text":"因為主權跟治權這種劃分是我們比較台灣教科書上這樣寫事實上主權在民這個是民主最重要的一個精神所以台灣人民選出我們的政府包括總統跟國會怎麼樣來確保我們國民主權這個就是最根本"},{"start":156.894,"end":183.329,"text":"那至於說涉及到的所謂互不隸屬是不是因為主權、治權的差異有這些理論有點複雜那我覺得回到還是最根本的所以今天部長今天我講兩國論的思維裡面我們就按照我們賴總統在把治權和主權的混淆也沒關係本席在按照賴總統的思路請問部長既然是兩國"},{"start":185.13,"end":209.884,"text":"部長是不是應該建議賴總統把大陸委員會裁掉並將陸委會併入到外交部設立外交部中國時我想外交部就代表我們國家主權因為兩岸關係很特殊所以我們有設立這個大陸事務委員會來處理因為最主要是我們是"},{"start":211.26,"end":225.908,"text":"某種程度是承認他啦因為在台灣民主化之後啊其實我們對我講這個好不好但是他沒有承認我們今天我們要分析一下這個很簡單外交部是主要負責的是什麼國與國的之間的對外事務"},{"start":226.548,"end":244.39,"text":"入委會負責的是中華民國臺灣地區與大陸地區的內部事務既然部長認同賴總統的兩國論那就應該有所作為把大陸委員會併入到你們外交部的中國司有沒有必要"},{"start":244.97,"end":257.569,"text":"因為這涉及現改可能要朝野來協調然後溝通甚至對話應該朝野協調啦我們今天我提出這個案子這涉及到現改層次就是應該現在來講我們應該要朝這個方向來討論"},{"start":261.954,"end":276.361,"text":"要不然的話今天兩國之間的僵硬到現在沒有一個談判的空間所以你說大陸事務委員會有沒有必要性要避入到你們外交部因為外交部是你們負責國與國之間的關係嘛 對不對"},{"start":279.942,"end":301.113,"text":"所以這個是給你一個方向思維不過我跟委員講因為我們承認他他不承認我們你這樣他如果願意跟外交部交往我也是很願意可是他不願意跟我交往我們永遠承認兩岸之間的關係但是是台灣不承認對岸之間的關係我們只有承認美國跟日本的關係而已"},{"start":301.733,"end":326.754,"text":"所以這個就是一個思維的因素我們本地同根生我們跟對岸之間本來就有這一層的關係為什麼一直不承認所以這個就是我要講要講出的論述因為這個論述裡面我是以台灣原住民的身份來去看待兩岸之間不是要用你們的角度裡面去看待兩岸之間所以這個就是我要告訴給部長的好不好所以這個我另外插個話"},{"start":328.581,"end":351.378,"text":"我上次有特別提到就是你第一次執行背景的時候我特別提到原住民在南島語系的民主裡面我希望未來推派無認所原住民的代表還是有認所的原住民代表希望沒有任何的政黨而且有學術理論而且是正當性的"},{"start":352.278,"end":375.518,"text":"對外交未來對原住民事務有推動有幫助與國家邦交的前提沒有任何的政黨為代表性可不可以可以我一定來尋才也請委員可以推薦我們一起來找出最能夠讓原住民外交發揮因為台灣確實有這樣的條件可以做包括海島或南島語系"},{"start":384.641,"end":397.565,"text":"這一點我絕對相信你有這個能力一直以來到現在你從外交部從新聞局到市長到現在總統府的秘書長我絕對相信你在整個"},{"start":398.405,"end":417.311,"text":"不分族群的情況之下找出一個能人找出一個人才為國家來奉獻而不是以政黨的角度來看待派任今天不要說你們的內閣是一個外星人內閣連圓明會主委到現在一問三不知"},{"start":419.351,"end":446.1,"text":"所以我們一問三不答我根本不要問為什麼人民失望了原住民的國人失望了所以這個就是你們要思考的地方另外就是我們駐美大使的人格操守的問題一大雷遭到爆料爆料挪用公款這樣的一個國際事件也造成我們外交部的形象"},{"start":447.42,"end":474.569,"text":"已經有所衝突而且如何提振外交部的形象今天雷大雷大使所陳述的問題他是不是要自我援說你們要找出一個原因如果我們誣賴他還他清白如果是他挪用公款你們絕對跟國人有交代因為這是你們外交部的形象要樹立起來不要讓我們外交部說我們是"},{"start":475.189,"end":497.062,"text":"派出的所有浪費公帑部長你回答目前是沒有挪用公款但是因為採購的程序有些項目有核可有些沒有那核可的部分外界有一些質疑我們要妥善說明我們可以與小新習小新已經有共同提出來希望這兩個禮拜以內請他回來來做一個說明以上謝謝"},{"start":507.265,"end":507.286,"text":"曉明"}]}},{"id":"154336","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154336","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c99cbd9a47b2b8cfc21a3f23b3ad13ea21377aa0ad8b688797726f243a79063a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:23:27 - 09:32:21","影片長度":"00:08:54","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:23:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:32:21+08:00","duration":534,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":71,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時23分）謝謝主席，我是不是請一下陳部長？"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長早。首先我們感謝主席排定農業移工的問題，這個問題其實我們過去在委員會裡也討論過相當多次了。部長，我讓您看一下，這個是我稍微整理了一下我們整個農業移工開放的歷程，包括初期開放試辦時只有開放800人，而且主要是以飼養、畜牧業為大宗，慢慢的，包括納入農保、勞保員工人數，他們其實是就可以申請移工的人數，一直到現在，我覺得這裡面有一個比較重要的數字，我想剛剛部長的報告裡頭也有提到，就是現在我們的名額是1.2萬嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是已申請進來，大概是有多少人？"],["陳部長駿季：八千五百多人，大概七成。"],["邱委員議瑩：七成？好，所以你們預估到今年年底，這1.2萬就會全部用完？"],["陳部長駿季：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：那接下來怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，現在我們已經啟動一個機制，像現在已經達到七成的時候，其實我們已經在調查現在外面需要的大概是8,000人，所以我們不會等到沒有的時候才開始向勞動部申請，我們現在就會啟動一個機制去跟勞動部申請增加這個名額。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你們已經開始要跟勞動部談了嗎？開始談了沒？"],["陳部長駿季：對，已經在跟他們做溝通，因為調查後大概是8,000人啦……"],["邱委員議瑩：已經在跟他們做溝通？好。"],["陳部長駿季：我們希望在年底之前能夠銜接，不會說有個空窗期。"],["邱委員議瑩：昨天勞動部簽署了臺灣跟印度合作的MOU，看起來是沒有包含農業移工這一塊，我覺得或許可以跟勞動部再談一下。部長，我要跟您講的是，我們在講農業缺工的問題，我現在就只舉美濃農會在申請這些農業移工的現況，因為在美濃種野蓮的量非常多，所以美濃農會一共跟農業部申請了5次，總共核准了97人，這中間大概有逃逸3個。我要給部長看一下，現在申請農業移工看起來沒有那麼困難跟複雜，但是薪資的比例，現在我們所有移工都必須符合臺灣的勞基法，勞基法有規定工時跟最低的薪資比例，這個是現在我們統計出來的，如果就今年度來看，申請一個移工，他的薪水大概要付到將近4萬3,000元，快要比本國的勞工還要高了，而且還要負擔他的食宿。","對於野蓮，我只講單一個產品──野蓮就好，野蓮今年的市場拍賣價格其實是不好的，所以請一個移工來，基本上已經快要沒有辦法負擔這個移工的薪水，面對這樣的問題，包括工時，你知道農民的工作不是從早上9點到下午5點，很容易計算工時，常常有可能是必須在清晨、天沒有亮以前就開始工作，中間像現在太陽這麼大的時候其實是沒有辦法工作的，到下午5、6點太陽下山了，又再持續他下一個階段的工作，所以他的工時計算也會產生問題。如果是這樣的話，農業部跟勞動部之間有沒有想出一個比較能夠合理解決的辦法？你說像現在的工資提高到這麼高，對農民來講是一個很沉重的負擔，他要申請外勞也不是，不申請也不是。好，這個外勞進來了以後，很多時候，比如說像種野蓮的，我們還必須跟他講這個是要泡在水裡一整天，所以美濃逃跑的那3個人，基本上是因為無法適應所以才逃跑。今年年底我們有訓練所謂採收玉荷包的人，所以你的農業移工來到臺灣要搭配什麼樣的季節的作物，搭配什麼樣的產物，必須都要經過一些訓練嘛，這些訓練也不是立刻可以上手，所以如何讓他們在來之前充分瞭解他要協助的農作品項是什麼，我覺得這也是一個問題。","再來，我還是希望你們能夠思考一下，這個本席大概也講過很多次了，中南部有非常多的外配，如果我們能夠讓這一些外配的親人來到臺灣依親打工，我不知道我過去提出這樣一個政策想法的時候，農業部有沒有思考過，就我的瞭解過去是被勞動部打槍啦，但是其實我們剛剛講到的這些農業的問題，包括薪資，如果外配的親人能夠來到臺灣依親打工，對於薪資給付的負擔將會大幅減輕，更重要的是，這個外配在他的家庭裡頭，找他的家人來協助他嫁過來的家庭從事農事工作，其實相對來講，他在這個家庭的地位是會大幅提高的，然後也能夠完整的協助這些農事作業，部長，您怎麼看我提出來這樣一個建議方式？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的這些關心，我想這有幾個問題，彈性工時的部分，其實農業部現在是符合勞基法的四週，所以已經不受限在週休二日及朝九晚五的規範，他是可以在四週裡面去做一個彈性的調整，這個部分勞動部已經把農業部納入了。第二個，薪資的部分的確就如委員所說的，他的薪資水平快要跟本國的一樣高了，然後還要負擔住……"],["邱委員議瑩：已經快要比本國人高了！"],["陳部長駿季：對，還要負擔住的部分，如果以一個面積不大的小農來講，可能負擔非常重。"],["邱委員議瑩：是。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們希望目前能夠透過強化所謂外展的這種機能，能夠跨區來做協助，或者是……"],["邱委員議瑩：但是部長你要知道，我們現在透過所謂外展功能，但大部分的農會都不會願意做這樣的配合，因為他要負擔的安全成本其實是遠高過你的想像。"],["陳部長駿季：對。另外還有一個就是，如果本身能夠結合，我們現在在努力去調整十人以上的農場的核配比，你如果有一個類似合作共同經營的模式的話，大家一起分擔這樣的人力，可能它的效率會比較高，所以這個部分我們也會來努力。"],["邱委員議瑩：您講的這些都是現在已經在做的，包括十人以上的農場、合作社等等，他們能夠來申請這些外展移工……"],["陳部長駿季：如果他的核配比不行的話，就是三比一……"],["邱委員議瑩：對嘛，所以這部分其實還是少的……"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在是要想辦法變成一比一。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，如果能夠變成一比一，當然是一個德政，但我講的所謂依親打工這件事情，我覺得這部分其實真的可以認真的思考。"],["陳部長駿季：依親打工，以農業部來講是非常贊成，我們也跟勞動部溝通了非常久，基本上現在的問題是卡在勞動部說，這樣依親打工還是要照原來的遊戲規則走，用現在的遊戲規則去走，而且是在我們的總配額裡面去扣，我覺得這樣反而沒有幫助。"],["邱委員議瑩：你是說照我們原來申請外展移工的總配額下去扣？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這1萬2,000人中，如果有10個依親打工的，就扣掉10個，所以這個部……"],["邱委員議瑩：我覺得勞動部這個思維太過僵化。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們還會去跟他們……有問題以後我想我們會跟他溝通……"],["邱委員議瑩：我認為應該帶著他們實際到田間去看，他就會知道田間的需求有多高，如果能夠用依親打工的話，其實可以解決很多包括外展移工沒有辦法做到的，解決很多這些相對的問題，我覺得可能應該要求或是我們應該帶勞動部的人直接到我們田間去觀摩、去學習、去看一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我會跟何佩珊部長討論，然後必要的時候也會邀請他們到現場去看實際的情況，他們就能夠瞭解，這個我們會繼續努力。"],["邱委員議瑩：是。好。OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請黃國昌委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8915937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.497843750000001,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.66659375,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.910968750000002,"end":12.771593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.52596875,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.01534375,"end":22.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.559093750000002,"end":30.372218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.65909375,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.291593750000004,"end":58.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.84221875,"end":47.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.22596875,"end":48.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.884093750000005,"end":49.204718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.97596875,"end":55.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.229093750000004,"end":55.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.16096875,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.75471875000001,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.32784375,"end":72.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.24721875,"end":75.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.03596875000001,"end":81.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.09909375000001,"end":77.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.96784375,"end":81.90846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.94221875000001,"end":83.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.37659375000001,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.96034375,"end":104.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.13284375,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.03971875,"end":107.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.87909375000001,"end":107.89596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.89596875000001,"end":107.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.91284375000001,"end":108.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.01409375,"end":112.55346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.06471875000001,"end":108.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.63784375,"end":119.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.26159375,"end":117.53159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.86034375000001,"end":121.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.91096875000001,"end":121.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.56471875000001,"end":124.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.75409375000001,"end":137.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.89971875,"end":148.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.85284375,"end":140.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.22721875000002,"end":148.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.10471875000002,"end":150.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.56846875000002,"end":156.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.42846875,"end":157.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.50846875000002,"end":160.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.69784375,"end":179.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.51346875000002,"end":179.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.72846875000002,"end":186.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.48284375,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.19159375,"end":194.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.80221875,"end":195.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.44346875000002,"end":198.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.03784375,"end":204.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.77534375000002,"end":206.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.36159375000003,"end":230.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.66159375,"end":234.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.59346875000003,"end":259.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.15909375,"end":269.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.60471875,"end":292.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.54534375000003,"end":272.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.74471875,"end":293.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.80784375,"end":300.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.51971875000004,"end":303.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.03409375,"end":308.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.45096875,"end":312.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.62346875000003,"end":327.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.72721875,"end":324.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.76034375,"end":334.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.99971875,"end":337.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.37909375000004,"end":344.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.78721875,"end":354.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.84471875,"end":361.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.92846875000004,"end":359.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.02534375000005,"end":370.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.01096875,"end":407.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.17284375,"end":391.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.25659375000004,"end":392.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.51596875,"end":410.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.49846875000003,"end":419.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.29471875,"end":418.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.30721875,"end":424.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.35284375000003,"end":427.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.64346875,"end":429.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.02284375000005,"end":438.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.85284375000003,"end":447.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.16471875,"end":440.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.18471875,"end":449.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.73284375000003,"end":452.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.43721875000006,"end":453.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.92221875,"end":460.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.52096875,"end":456.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.98034375000003,"end":460.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.49909375000004,"end":460.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.97159375,"end":463.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.11034375,"end":469.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.72971875,"end":476.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.46284375000005,"end":483.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.68971875000005,"end":487.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.12409375000004,"end":490.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.20346875,"end":492.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.07221875000005,"end":497.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.08034375000005,"end":497.84346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.02909375,"end":498.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.92346875000004,"end":520.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.93596875000003,"end":500.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.97346875000005,"end":503.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.56721875000005,"end":510.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.1184687500001,"end":530.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.4253437500001,"end":527.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.5515937499999,"end":530.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.88471875,"end":531.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.7534687500001,"end":534.52971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.329,"end":0.67,"text":"請做詢問我們請陳部長"},{"start":18.73,"end":31.742,"text":"議員早部長早部長我想首先我們感謝主席拍定這個農業移工的問題那這個問題其實我們過去在委員會裡頭也討論過相當多次部長我讓您看一下"},{"start":33.665,"end":57.683,"text":"這個大概是我稍微整理一下我們整個農業移工開放的這些歷程包括說初期的開放事辦是只有800人而且主要是從這個應該是這個飼養畜牧業為大宗然後慢慢的包括這個納入這個農保勞保員工人數他們其實是就可以申請移工的人數一直到現在"},{"start":59.224,"end":59.504,"text":"8500多,大概七成。"},{"start":77.349,"end":101.856,"text":"所以你們預估到今年年底這1.2萬就會全部用完那接下來怎麼辦我想跟委員報告現在我們已經啟動一個機制就是說像現在已經到7成的時候其實我們已經調查現在外面需要的大概8000人所以我們不會等到沒有的時候才開始向勞動部申請我們現在就會啟動一個機制去跟勞動部申請所以你們已經開始要跟勞動部談了嗎開始談了沒"},{"start":104.537,"end":112.202,"text":"已經在跟他們做溝通 調查大概8000人了那我們希望說在年底之前能夠銜接 不會說有一個空窗期"},{"start":112.694,"end":129.898,"text":"昨天勞動部簽署了跟台灣跟印度的合作的MOU看起來是沒有包含農業移工這一塊我覺得或許可以跟勞動部再談一下部長我要跟您講我們在講農業缺工的問題我現在就只舉我美農農會在申請這些農業移工的現況美農農會因為我們在美農種野蓮的非常多"},{"start":140.7,"end":159.951,"text":"所以他一共跟農業部申請了5次總共核准了97人這中間大概有陶藝三個那要給部長看一下現在申請農業移工看起來沒有那麼困難跟複雜但是這個薪資的比例"},{"start":161.211,"end":178.705,"text":"我們現在的所有的移工都必須符合台灣的勞基法勞基法它有規定它的工時跟最低的薪資比例這個是現在我們統計出來如果就今年度來看申請一個移工他的薪水大概要付到將近4萬3千塊"},{"start":181.645,"end":203.05,"text":"對於野蓮我是講單一個產品野蓮就好野蓮今年的市場拍賣價格其實是不好的所以他請一個移工基本上他沒有快要沒有辦法負擔這個移工的薪水那面對這樣的一個問題"},{"start":204.87,"end":206.731,"text":"農業部跟勞動部之間有沒有想出一個"},{"start":241.366,"end":258.917,"text":"對農民來講是一個很沉重的負擔他要申請外勞也不是不申請也不是好那這個外勞來呢很多時候比如說像野蓮的我們還要必須跟他講這個是要泡在水裡一整天所以美農逃跑的那三個基本上是因為無法適應所以逃跑"},{"start":260.222,"end":269.286,"text":"今年年底我們有訓練所謂的癒合包採收癒合包的人所以你的農業移工來到台灣要搭配什麼樣的"},{"start":270.589,"end":300.589,"text":"﹗"},{"start":301.59,"end":326.224,"text":"中南部有非常多的外配那如果我們能夠讓這一些外配的親人來到台灣依親打工我不知道我過去提出這樣的一個政策想法的時候農業部有沒有思考過那我的了解過去是被勞動部打槍但是其實我們剛剛講到了這一些農業的問題"},{"start":327.945,"end":353.963,"text":"新資甚至我想外配如果他們的親人能夠來到台灣依親打工對於新資的給付是一個負擔會大幅減輕更重要的是這個外配在他的家庭裡頭他的家人來協助他的嫁過來的這個家庭來做這樣農事的工作其實相對來講他在這個家庭的地位是會大幅提高然後也能夠"},{"start":354.924,"end":381.883,"text":"完整的協助這些農事作業部長您怎麼看我提出來的這樣的一個建議方式謝謝委員的這些關心我想幾個問題就是彈性工時的部分其實農業部現在是符合勞基法的四周所以它已經不受限在週休二日還有朝九晚五的這樣的一個規範它是可以在四周裡面去做一個彈性的調整我想這個部分勞動部這邊已經把農業部納入了那第二個部分"},{"start":382.583,"end":406.258,"text":"新資的部分的確就是委員所說的他的新資水平快要跟本國的一樣高了然後還要負擔住還要負擔住的部分你如果說以一個你面積不大的小農來講可能負擔非常重所以我們希望說現在目前能夠透過這種所謂的強化這種外展的機能能夠跨區也好來做一個協助"},{"start":406.598,"end":426.2,"text":"所以跟著部長你要知道我們現在透過所謂外展功能你要讓農會大部分的農會都不會願意做這樣的配合因為他要負擔的這些安全成本其實是遠高過你的想像對那另外還有一個就是說如果說本身如果能夠結合我們現在在努力去調整10人以上的這個農場的合配比"},{"start":427.862,"end":448.924,"text":"你如果說有一個類似合作共同經營的模式的話大家分擔這樣一個人力可能它的效率會比較高所以這個部分我想我們也會來努力您講的這個都是現在已經在做包括農場10人以上的這個農場合作社等等他們能夠來申請這些外在移工不過它的合配比不行這是3比1"},{"start":449.955,"end":474.807,"text":"對嘛,所以他其實還是少的我們現在是要變成,想辦法變成1比1好,如果能夠變成1比1那當然這是一個得證啦但我講的這個所謂的一清打工這件事情我覺得這個其實真的是可以認真的思考啦我想一清打工以農業部來講是非常贊成那我們也跟勞動部溝通了非常久那基本上現在的問題是卡在勞動部說這樣的一個意見還是照原來的遊戲規則走啦"},{"start":476.57,"end":476.59,"text":"議員：邱議瑩議員"},{"start":498.982,"end":499.022,"text":"對,我想說"},{"start":521.005,"end":521.025,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154335","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154335","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c48bae04050ea08df4b539dbd63c1cc911377aa0ad8b688790ab1c07276b9cfa75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:23:57 - 09:30:28","影片長度":"00:06:31","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:23:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:30:28+08:00","duration":391,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":95,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時24分）主席好，有請外交部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳委員永康：部長您好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["陳委員永康：聽取您早上的重點報告，以及我先前看過您的分析事項，有關於如何運用友我的國際組織協助我們參加更多的國際活動，甚至有些聯合國的外圍組織希望能夠加入成為觀察員，這個在方法上、在立論的著眼上，我們是完全支持部裡面，但我們也用一些不同的角度來做分析，並提出一些建言。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["陳委員永康：我們的現況是由政府籌劃與資助，或者半官方組織、民間團體共同努力，但是因為做法不同調，成果的累積有些不容易。我們現在提出了以國家安全戰略為基礎，積極來指導參與國際組織的方法論，是以國際的聲援為本、它的實質支持為實，因為要有國家安全戰略，所以我們的資源分配才適宜、協商順暢、施政同步、法制周全、策略易行、政策可以連續性。我們的重點是宣揚臺灣的公益意願，精準發揮臺灣的優勢能力，政府要凝聚共識與資源的襄助，融合社會與民間來共同努力。","現在看到您的那幾篇報告裡面，有狀況一、狀況二，我們提出的建言，強調建議二，就是現在臺大已經宣布創立NGO的人才學校，我們建議外交部或者是外交人員研究的學院跟臺大合作，可以採取多點的培養NGO的人才，而不僅限於你們自己部內的人才，我們希望能夠幫外交部建立一個強大的團隊。","如何運用國際友我的組織力量，協助加入聯合國相關組織？現在最重要的是今年11月的COP29聯合國氣候變遷大會，聚焦在2025年的全球氣候融資的目標，我們根據美國海洋大氣總署NOAA的資料，如果現在失去控制，在2100年本世紀前，海平面會上升3.5到7英尺，也就是平均2公尺，甚至更深。這個時候影響到不只是美國的邁阿密、紐奧良、東京、大阪，甚至倫敦、香港，我們的高雄、臺北一部分，這個問題是非常嚴肅的。但是在氣候變遷的控制上，美國跟中國大陸在這個上面他們是採取合作的態度，我們雖然不是聯合國的成員，但是在抗暖化氣候融資的目標議題上，我們應該表達我們積極的態度跟合作的立場，尤其是在南太平洋這些島國貧窮國家，因為海洋上升這些國家就被淹掉了，可能不只是與我們友好的富裕國家要融入一個共同融資合作的機會，在控制碳零排放的同時，也要照顧到南太平洋的友邦國家。","現在產生了一個挑戰，這是美國的內政問題，但是會影響到我們，就是川普強調石化燃料在美國內政政策的重要性，他認為減低美國能源對外依賴是重要的，所以川普的能源革命跟拜登2050年的淨零排放，這兩個是完全相反的，所以在11月5號的結果出來，我們必須面對如何針對下一個美國總統在國際氣候變遷組織有不同的想法上，我們要有一個調節的空間、論述的方法論。各位看簡報這張圖像，這是前天我在美國NOAA的圖上，就是6月25號的海平面上的氣溫，都已經到了25到30度，這個結果預測如果氣溫升高兩米，圖左邊是高雄港周圍、愛河周圍還有屏東大部分的濱海地區都被水淹沒了；在右邊這張圖是新北市跟臺北市，新北市的臺北港都淹掉了；另外沿著淡水河進來，可以看到在新北市的蘆洲、甚至淡水河進去的科學園區統統都被水淹了，這個不只是我們面對的挑戰，事實上對國外的國家、友我的國家，我們可以形成一個共同的論述。","另外，有關國際組織，剛才在您的報告裡面提到希望友人的合作協助參加ICAO，我建議再增加兩個重點，除了ICAO以外還有IMO國際海事組織，另外一個就是International Hydrographic Organization（IHO），這兩個都是有關海上海運的，因為中共最近在臺海周遭實施灰色地帶的這種演習、不動武的威懾消耗戰，如果我們的民航組織發現它干擾了民航機的航線，或是干擾了海上民航航運的航線，這都可以透過我們的友好、友我的組織，向這幾個單位表達我們的關切，希望喚起國際組織對維護臺海周遭以及國際和平的重視。以上報告。"],["林部長佳龍：非常謝謝委員寶貴的意見，我們會把它特別納入，特別是IMO相關的國際組織，謝謝。"],["陳委員永康：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。接下來請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.71721875,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.30346875,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.61971875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.80846875,"end":21.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.68159375,"end":22.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.132843750000003,"end":33.291593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.392843750000004,"end":40.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.25659375,"end":49.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.72346875,"end":51.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.314093750000005,"end":54.689093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.891593750000006,"end":58.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.31721875,"end":74.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.04034375,"end":97.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.75409375000001,"end":103.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.12846875000001,"end":122.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.44221875000001,"end":129.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.76159375,"end":142.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.28284375,"end":150.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.97784375,"end":167.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.66721875000002,"end":170.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.83971875,"end":171.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.08846875,"end":173.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.56909375,"end":175.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.78409375,"end":182.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.78721875000002,"end":186.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.90471875,"end":204.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.07909375000003,"end":210.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.96409375000002,"end":214.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.79909375000003,"end":215.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.73971875,"end":221.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.98784375000002,"end":232.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.63596875000002,"end":242.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.38534375,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.51096875000002,"end":252.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.71284375000002,"end":260.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.34034375000005,"end":261.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.75784375,"end":267.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.24659375000005,"end":270.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.22909375,"end":272.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.89971875000003,"end":274.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.48596875000004,"end":276.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.54034375000003,"end":279.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.81846875,"end":286.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.19284375,"end":290.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.12471875,"end":291.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.71534375000005,"end":297.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.99284375,"end":304.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.36721875,"end":315.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.21784375000004,"end":326.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.25409375000004,"end":331.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.28721875,"end":331.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.14784375000005,"end":346.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.66034375000004,"end":349.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.78221875,"end":350.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.91284375000004,"end":373.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.28909375,"end":373.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.04846875000004,"end":374.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.65596875,"end":381.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.20284375,"end":386.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.02096875,"end":391.71659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.962,"end":10.467,"text":"主席好 有請外交部部長請部長"},{"start":19.947,"end":49.142,"text":"部長您好委員長聽取您的早上的重點報告以及我先前看過您的這個分析事項有關於如何運用友我的國際組織協助我們參加國際更多的活動甚至有一些國際聯合國的外圍組織希望能夠加入成為觀察員這個我們在方法上在利潤的著眼上我們是完全支持部裡面當我們也用一些不同的角度來做分析提出一些建言"},{"start":52.146,"end":68.234,"text":"我們的現況是由政府籌劃與資助．或者半方組織民間團體共同努力．但是因為做法不同調．成果的累積有些不容易．我們現在提出了一個國家安全戰略為基礎．積極來指導參與國際組織的方法論．是以國際的聲援為本．它的實質支持為實．"},{"start":75.157,"end":103.592,"text":"因為要有國家安全戰略所以我們的資源分配才適宜協商順暢施政同步法治周全策略疫情政策可以連續性我們的重點是宣揚臺灣的公益意願精準發揮臺灣的優勢能力我們政府要凝聚共識與資源的相助融合社會與民間來共同的努力現在看到您的那幾篇報告裡面有一個狀況一狀況二我們提出的建言"},{"start":105.585,"end":128.62,"text":"強調建議二就是現在臺大已經宣布創立NGO的人才學校我們建議這個外交部或者是外交人員這個研究的這個學院跟臺大才合作我們可以採取多點的培養NGO的人才而不是光僅設限於我們自己部內人才我們希望能夠幫外力部外交部建立一個強大的團隊"},{"start":131.276,"end":154.025,"text":"如何運用國際友人：有我的組織力量協助加入聯合國相關組織現在一個最重要的是今年的11月的就是COP 29聯合國氣候變遷大會聚焦在2025年的全球氣候融資的目標我們根據美國海洋大氣從屬NOAA的資料"},{"start":155.686,"end":174.931,"text":"如果現在失去控制在2100本世紀前海平面會上升3.5到7英尺也就是平均是兩公尺甚至更深這個時候影響到不只是美國的邁阿密New Orleans東京大本甚至倫敦香港"},{"start":176.595,"end":204.313,"text":"高雄臺北部分這個問題是非常嚴肅的但是在氣候變遷的控制上美國跟中國大陸在這個上面他們是採取合作的態度我們雖然不是聯合國的成員但是在抗暖化氣候融資的目標議題上我們應該表達我們積極的態度跟合作的立場尤其是在南太平洋這些島國貧窮國家因為海洋上升這些國家就被淹掉了可能"},{"start":205.194,"end":220.831,"text":"不只是與我們友好的富裕國家要融入一個共同融資合作的機會在控制零排放的同時也照顧到南太平洋的友邦國家"},{"start":222.062,"end":248.05,"text":"那現在產生的一個面對的挑戰這是美國的內政問題但是會影響到我們就是川普他強調石化燃料在美國內政政策的重要性他認為減低美國能源對外依賴是重要的所以川普的能源革命跟拜登的2050年的近鄰談放這兩個是完全相反的所以在11月5號的結果出來我們必須面對如何"},{"start":250.014,"end":275.866,"text":"針對下一個美國總統在這個國際這個怎麼講氣候變遷組織有不同的想法上我們要有一個調節的空間論述的方法論那這張圖像各位看這是前天我在美國NOAA的圖上就是6月25號的海平面上的氣溫都已經到了25到30度那這個結果如果預測"},{"start":277.611,"end":277.871,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":298.012,"end":298.292,"text":"我建議再增加兩個重點"},{"start":327.315,"end":348.797,"text":"一個除了IKO以外還有IMO國際海事組織那麼另外一個就是IHO這兩個都是有關海上海運的因為中共最近在台海周遭實施灰色地帶的這種演習這個不動武的威懾消耗戰"},{"start":349.864,"end":372.819,"text":"如果我們的民航組織發現它干擾了民航機的航線或是干擾了海上民航航運的航線這個都可以透過我們的友好友我的組織向這幾個單位表達我們的關切以希望喚起這個國際組織對維護台海周遭以及國際和平的一個重視以上報告"},{"start":374.875,"end":381.619,"text":"非常謝謝委員寶貴的意見,我們會把它特別納入,特別是IMO相關的國際組織,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝陳委員。接下來請黃仁委員上台諮詢。"}]}},{"id":"154331","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154331","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c47b2200f32ebbfdf4b539dbd63c1cc911377aa0ad8b6887979bf6ad6b7fd95895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:14:18 - 09:23:48","影片長度":"00:09:30","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:14:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:23:48+08:00","duration":570,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":67,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時14分）謝謝主席，有請林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["羅委員美玲：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["羅委員美玲：部長早。國際刑警組織在6月25號經由執行委員會的投票，選出了巴西的候選人伍基沙成為新一任的秘書長，而且伍基沙是以壓倒性的票數完勝英國跟尚比亞的候選人，這也是該組織有史以來第一位來自開發中國家的秘書長，伍基沙會在今年的11月正式上任，然後現任的秘書長也是來自德國的Stock，他即將結束10年的任期。其實臺灣這麼多年以來一直都在積極爭取觀察員的身分，可是在2022年的時候，現任的秘書長Stock表示國際刑警組織只承認中華人民共和國是中國唯一的代表，他還說臺灣是中國的一部分，所以沒有辦法給予臺灣觀察員的身分。那時候我們外交部有表達了遺憾跟不滿，新任的秘書長即將上任了，來自巴西的秘書長在11月即將上任，那臺灣是不是還會繼續爭取觀察員的身分？部長您認為我們有機會嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：最近國際情勢的發展，大家也在檢討2758號決議的內容……"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["林部長佳龍：美國也很明確地表達，其實2758號決議並沒有背書或等同還是反映所謂的一中原則，而世界各國跟臺灣進行交往其實也是它的主權；再來，臺灣參與國際組織也沒有因為這個決議而有所限制，所以這些都像是……我想中共在發動法律戰，削弱聯合國跟週邊的組織這件事情，也引起了一些反應，所以這個也是我們的一個機會之窗，有威脅也有機會，我們就要更努力跟理念相近的國家一起來推動。"],["羅委員美玲：所以我們還是會積極爭取INTERPOL觀察員的身分嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["羅委員美玲：可是就像這些聲明，大家都理解，但似乎中國也不理會這些聲明，對不對？而且國際刑警組織執行委員會的重要成員之一就包含了中國，您覺得我們真的有機會加入嗎？中國一定是使盡所有的辦法來干擾，不是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：當然要累積能量不斷地去推動，尤其是我們公共訊息的溝通，更多人瞭解之後就發現，原來中共所扭曲的第2758號決議並沒有涉及所謂一中原則，也沒有排除臺灣的國際組織參與，也沒有限制他們跟臺灣建立外交關係，所以這都需要去宣傳，這也是當前在做的。至於我們不斷透過各種方式去參與，有意義的參與方式也非常多種，這也是我們要努力的地方。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，謝謝。外交部還是要積極努力加入這些國際組織，目前國際刑警組織有196國，包含一些極權國家，而且在執行委員會也有一些極權國家在裡面，所以我們可能還有很長的路要走，本席是這麼認為。","過去，國際刑警組織有一些讓國際人權組織覺得有非議的地方，也就是有一些極權國家比如中國、俄羅斯，他們透過這個國際刑警組織的紅色通緝令來緝拿異議分子，所以我們不曉得新任的秘書長能不能保持中立，過去雖然德國的Stock拒絕了臺灣的申請，像是觀察員身分，他只承認One China Policy，但問題是在他主政的十年當中，他認為這些紅色追緝令還是必須經過審查，可是我們不曉得新任的秘書長會怎麼處理這件事情，因為過去中國就曾經透過紅色通緝令，比如像世界維吾爾大會的主席──多里坤‧艾沙被中國視為恐怖分子，中國就向世界刑警組織申請拘捕令，甚至維權人士Aishan也曾經在摩納哥被拘留，後來被遣返回中國。","本席講這點是因為在6月21號的時候，中國頒布懲治臺獨的規定，公布懲治臺獨分裂國家、煽動分裂國家等22條規定，如果違反分裂國家犯罪，最重可以處死刑，追訴期是20年，他認為這些分裂國家犯罪就是所稱的臺獨頑固分子，臺灣有很多的政治人物，比如我們的前行政院長蘇貞昌也被點名，我們的前部長吳釗燮也被點名，甚至有一些媒體人也被點名，我們所擔心的是，他認為這些名單當中的臺獨頑固分子就是觸犯了分裂國家犯罪，如果這些他所點名的臺獨頑固分子到第三國，或是到國際刑警組織的這些會員國，會不會就用紅色追緝令來緝捕這些他口中的頑固分子？我們會擔心這種事情發生嗎？請問部長。"],["林部長佳龍：確實要很慎重地去因應，中國是不是可能透過所謂的紅色通報、透過國際刑警組織進行跨境鎮壓？這一點當然我們也有訓令外館怎麼做預防跟因應，但是因為紅色通報也不是逮捕令，主要還是要涉及到當地國的法律，這就涉及到所謂的司法互助跟遣送的相關規定條約，這部分因為有一些國家跟中共簽有建交公報，或者在條約裡面涉及一中原則，這會不會去掛勾？"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["林部長佳龍：但是怎麼樣跟當地國做溝通，以及我們提醒國人要注意、外館要協助，針對這些事情有非常多的樣態，比如您剛提到的，像有關新疆維吾爾族有一些人權人士被中國定義為所謂的……"],["羅委員美玲：恐怖分子。"],["林部長佳龍：以反恐的名義，但是國際刑警組織基本上還是以刑事相關犯罪為主的遣返……"],["羅委員美玲：因為過去曾經有被濫用、劣跡斑斑的事情發生，臺灣不得不注意。"],["林部長佳龍：是，這個要密切注意。"],["羅委員美玲：剛剛部長您所講的，我們必須要預防、我們必須要跟國人告知危險性，可是到目前為止，外交部好像還沒有做這些動作，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：像我們政府對於旅遊有發布橙色警戒，同樣地，有些國家我們也做過統計，對於這些國家，我們有已經訓令外館特別要注意，就是涉及他們建交有簽訂一中原則，又加上司法互助跟遣送的相關條約，這就是第一級我們要特別注意怎麼防範跟因應。"],["羅委員美玲：因為實際上真的有發生過拘捕、遣返的狀況，雖然國際刑警組織在在地國沒有逮捕令，可是我們看到的並不是這樣，不單單中國，像巴林、俄羅斯、土耳其都曾經濫用紅色通緝令，這一點外交部一定要非常非常的擔心，我們要有所規劃、有所因應，以上，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們會加強，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.9209687500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.08096875,"end":4.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.763468750000001,"end":93.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.57346875,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.41284375000001,"end":126.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.74534375,"end":149.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.88096875000002,"end":156.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.16784375,"end":150.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.50909375,"end":154.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.15846875,"end":156.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.22596875000002,"end":179.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.73159375,"end":161.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.59784375,"end":179.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.73284375,"end":183.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.23846875,"end":218.98409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.10221875000002,"end":224.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.95784375000002,"end":396.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.16159375,"end":244.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.45846875,"end":398.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.09096875,"end":407.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.56221875,"end":439.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.50659375000004,"end":474.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.14159375,"end":453.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.50534375,"end":475.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.56846875,"end":475.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.81721875000005,"end":488.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.57221875000005,"end":479.28096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.82096875,"end":479.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.98846875000004,"end":502.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.90346875000006,"end":492.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.24346875000003,"end":533.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.6228437500001,"end":558.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.86346875,"end":560.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.2978437500001,"end":561.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.8459687500001,"end":563.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.3559687500001,"end":569.1740937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.15,"text":"請林部長"},{"start":10.959,"end":14.46,"text":"國際刑警組織在6月25號經由執行委員會的投票選出了巴西的候選人伍吉莎成為新一任的秘書長而且伍吉莎是以壓倒性的票數完勝英國跟上比亞的候選人"},{"start":33.145,"end":60.117,"text":"這也是該組織有史以來第一位來自開發中國家的秘書長那伍吉莎他會在今年的11月就會正式上任然後現任的秘書長也是來自德國的Stone他即將結束10年的這個任期其實台灣這麼多年以來一直都在積極地爭取觀察員的這個身份可是在2022年的時候現任的秘書長Stone他就說"},{"start":61.698,"end":75.882,"text":"他表示國際情景組織只承認中華人民共和國是中國唯一的代表他還說台灣是中國的一部分所以沒有辦法給予台灣觀察員的身份那時候我們外交部又表達了遺憾跟不滿我們新任的秘書長即將上任了來自巴西的秘書長他在11月"},{"start":86.425,"end":87.086,"text":"臺灣是否還會繼續爭取我們觀察員的身份?"},{"start":95.172,"end":118.569,"text":"其實最近國際情勢的發展大家也在檢討2758號決議它的內容那美國也很明確的表達包括其實2758號決議並沒有去背書或等同或者是反映這個所謂的一中原則而這個世界各國跟臺灣進行這個交往"},{"start":123.826,"end":149.225,"text":"其實也是就是他的一個主權再來對台灣的參與國際組織這個也沒有因為這個決議而有所限制所以這些都像是我想中共在法律戰然後需要落實到聯合國跟周邊的組織這件事情也引起了一些反應所以這個也是我們的一個機會之窗"},{"start":150.006,"end":178.72,"text":"所以有威脅也有機會 那我們就要更努力來從理念相近的國家一起來推動所以我們還是會積極爭取這個interpol的這個觀察員的這個身份嘛可是呢就像這些聲明大家都理解可是似乎中國也不會理會這些聲明嘛對不對而且像國際刑警組織裡面他的這個執行委員會的這個重要成員之一就是包含了這個中國所以您覺得我們真的有機會加入嗎"},{"start":179.82,"end":182.685,"text":"我一定是使盡所有的辦法來干擾"},{"start":184.398,"end":213.762,"text":"當然要累積能量其實不斷地去推動尤其是我們公共訊息的溝通更多人了解的時候就發現說原來中共所扭曲的2758決議並沒有涉及所謂一中原則也沒有排除台灣的國際組織的參與也沒有限制他們跟台灣建立外交關係所以這個都需要去宣傳這個也是當前在做的"},{"start":214.122,"end":224.175,"text":"至於說不斷的去這個我們透過各種方式去參與這個有意義的參與的方式也非常多種這個也是我們要努力的地方"},{"start":225.054,"end":243.293,"text":"OK 好 謝謝外交部還是要積極來努力加入這些國際組織那目前國際刑警組織它有196國那包含了一些極權國家而且在資軍委員會裡面其實也有含了一些極權國家在裡面所以我們可能還有很長的路要走本席是這麼認為"},{"start":244.534,"end":261.373,"text":"那過去呢其實國際刑警組織有一些讓國際人權組織覺得有非議的地方就是有一些極權國家比如說中國、俄羅斯他們是透過這個國際刑警組織的紅色通緝令呢來棄拿這個"},{"start":264.016,"end":272.965,"text":"所以我們不曉得新任的秘書長能不能就是保持中立像過去雖然說德國的這個Stopp他是拒絕了台灣的這個申請像光產員身份他覺得他只承認One China Policy可是問題是在他主政的10年當中他認為說這些紅色追緝令必須還是要經過審查"},{"start":288.24,"end":310.235,"text":"可是我們不曉得新任的秘書長他會怎麼來處理這件事情因為像過去的話像中國中國他曾經就是透過這紅色的通緝令比如說他就像世界維吾爾大會的主席多里昆艾莎就是被中國視為恐怖分子他向世界刑警組織申請這個拘捕令"},{"start":312.717,"end":314.157,"text":"維權人士艾伊也曾經在摩納哥被拘留,到後來被遣返回中國本席會講這點是因為在6月21日的時候,中國頒布了懲治台獨的規定"},{"start":335.342,"end":351.674,"text":"他公布了這個懲罪台獨分裂國家、煽動分裂國家等22條這個規定他所謂的就是說如果違反分裂國家犯罪最終可以處死刑最速期是20年那他認為的這些分裂國家犯罪呢就是他所稱的台獨頑固分子"},{"start":354.742,"end":375.24,"text":"臺灣有很多的政治人物比如說我們的前行政院長蘇貞昌也被點名吳釗燮我們的前部長也被點名甚至有一些媒體人也被點名我們所擔心的就是說這些他現在認為說這些所謂的他名單當中的臺獨頑固分子他們其實就是觸犯了分裂國家犯罪那如果這些"},{"start":376.081,"end":376.201,"text":"確實要很……"},{"start":399.553,"end":399.814,"text":"：羅美玲議員"},{"start":414.905,"end":435.518,"text":"當然我們也有這個訓練外管我們怎麼樣去做預防跟因應那但是因為紅色通報也不是逮捕令他主要還是要涉及到當地國他的本國的法律這就涉及到所謂的司法互助跟這一個這一個所謂的這個這個"},{"start":439.56,"end":439.94,"text":"主席"},{"start":455.291,"end":474.821,"text":"但是呢當然怎麼樣去跟當地國做溝通那以及我們提醒國人要注意外管要協助針對這些事情有非常多的樣態比如你剛剛提到的像有關於新疆維吾爾族有一些人權人士被中國他們"},{"start":476.874,"end":482.599,"text":"因為過去曾經是有過被濫用、劣跡斑斑的事情發生,那台灣不得不注意,剛剛部長你所講的我們必須要預防,我們必須要跟國人來告知這個危險性,可是我到目前為止外交部好像比你們還沒有做這些動作對不對?"},{"start":503.437,"end":532.357,"text":"像我們就政府就發布陳設警戒對於這個旅遊那同樣有一些國家我們也做過統計那這些國家我們已經會就是訓練外管特別要注意就是有涉及到他們建交簽訂有一中原則又加上這個司法互助跟所謂的這個遣送相關的這個條約這個就是第一級我們特別要注意的"},{"start":532.657,"end":532.757,"text":"我們會加強"},{"start":566.425,"end":568.632,"text":"謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154330","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154330","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c7200cbb80297a5b421a3f23b3ad13ea21377aa0ad8b688795e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:11:53 - 09:23:21","影片長度":"00:11:28","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:11:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:23:21+08:00","duration":688,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":43,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時12分）有請部長。"],["主席：我們請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，今天針對兩個議題，一個是農業資訊安全，一個是農業勞動力缺乏。在資訊安全的部分，本席要提出一個案例，我們來進行剖析、討論；第二個，農金署針對農業資訊的這兩個單位，你們是否有公平對待？針對南農中心跟農金資訊公司。再者是我們農業勞動力匱乏的部分。","這邊我要請部長表態，資安是不是國安？如果是，你能夠接受您下面的各署、司、各單位違反資安原則嗎？第三個，你能夠接受您下面所有各單位在處理民眾爭議的時候是不公平的嗎？這三個您必須先表態，我才能夠繼續來跟您討論有關農業部的資安問題。資安是不是國安？"],["陳部長駿季：我想資安在某個程度來講一定是國安，因為資安的部分從個人的資訊安全到整個國家的資訊安全……"],["林委員岱樺：你能夠接受您下面的單位違反資安原則嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們身為公務員一定要根據相關的規範，就是……"],["林委員岱樺：如果要根據相關的規範，那就是要按照資安的原則……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["林委員岱樺：所以你也不能接受你下面的單位違反資安原則。所以你能夠接受您下面的單位在處理這樣的民眾爭議，或者是在你們部內的資安議題中有不公平的對待嗎？也就是主責單位。"],["陳部長駿季：我想絕對不允許，我們對一般的合作一定是以服務的態度。"],["林委員岱樺：好，OK。我們來看這個案例，最近才發生，我就先以這張圖來看，一個是神岡農會，這是受害者，這叫無辜的受害者，旁邊這邊有農金資公司、南農中心，我說過農金資公司這家公司是政府百分百支持，不要說政府啦，就是農業金庫百分百投資，但是它所有的業務都是外包，沒有設計人員，所有的維護也都是外包，好，那也沒關係，反正你們接受嘛，你們認為農業部有錢。但是它竟然允許外包公司進到神岡區農會，然後去竊取南農中心在神岡農會的資料，我為什麼說「竊取」？這已經是商業競爭當中的商業間諜了，因為它用了一個任何的資訊系統……其實這兩方，不管是南農中心或農金資都是有約定軟體的，甚至你看這個末端獨立系統，南農中心都有規範的。所以農金資公司允許外包使用約定作業範圍外的木馬程式，用了在神岡農會當中的外包公司，叫做三商，三商端末來竊取南農中心的資料。我怎麼知道的？在今年5月時，南農中心的檢測就發現到高頻率的交易異常行為，每6秒固定擷取共6萬6,000餘次，經查是非約定的程式。","好，我們來看你允許你的底下部會農金署怎麼處理，它7月4號要開個會，它也出席了，邀了農金資以及南農中心，結果你們說什麼？我只針對受害者叫做神岡農會信用部跟受害者南農中心的轉換系統爭議來釐清問題，加害者農金公司，你是不處理的喔！我為了來質詢這個東西，本席邀請了……我們國家在處理資安的是哪一個部門？數發部，我邀請數發部下面的資安院、公共工程委員會、金管會，也就是金融系統。結論有兩個，它說因為發現得早，尚未達到資訊外洩；第二個，這是嚴重的資安風險，我找了4個單位來確認這個案情並且來分析，結果你們農金署才針對兩個受害者，也沒有想到自己是不是專業，不專業就要謙虛一點，像本席就認為我的資安部分還不夠專業，所以我就請了4個單位來。","這個議題最後您再來回應，我先針對農業勞動力的問題，我們現在的農家戶數是76萬戶，農家人口數是239萬人，實質農牧的從業戶是從76萬降為35萬，只有一半在從事，而這35萬當中的高齡農牧戶，也就是65歲以上的占46%。我們來看產值，這是行政院主計總處提供的，農林漁牧業的產值從108年到去年112年，農業產值的逐年比是持平，而且還逐年下降，這樣的微幅下降表示什麼？獲利期望低啊！所以農業從業人口從將近10年前也就是從104年，這10年來減少了5萬人，關鍵原因就是農業對年輕世代的吸引力不足，所以農業缺工不是未來式，它是進行式。","你們現在的農業引進外勞是立意良善，規則清楚，但是不近現實，你們規定10人以下的移工1比1、其他依農企業人數等等，這個我都沒有意見。但重點是什麼叫不近事實？你說租約一定要3年以上才可以申請外勞，但我國通常是小農，大概1.1公頃、大概1甲，大概就是夫妻倆或是1個人到2個人的作業能力就可以處理完的，所以平常不可能去請移工，請不起啊！但什麼時候需要？對於這個小農來講，在產收的時候、採收的時候，他是需要的，所以本席是支持你剛才講的，你們說要用派遣的概念，也就是區域農業、區域集中，然後來做外派，這個本席是支持的，因為你可以解決這種小農的緊急需要。但是針對大農，我們看到簡報的右邊，台糖，在1.1公頃以上的，大面積2、3公頃以上的大概都要跟台糖租，你看台糖的租約，一般短期做瓜果類、蔬菜類的租期是幾年？2年以下，所以只要在台糖做瓜果類、蔬菜類的，永遠都不可能請到外勞，也就是大面積的部分，長期的還勉強可以，長期的是有到3年。所以這叫做現實規則明顯不接地氣。","我具體要求，第一個，請農業部偕同數發部，因為數發部主責資安，資安就是國安，針對農金資訊公司及委外業者利用神岡農會系統轉換，從事非約定軟體安裝程式進行調查，如果這個行為屬實，本席要求兩件事要處理，第一個，農金公司撤換外包公司；第二個，避免球員兼裁判，農金資訊公司的董事長不應該由農業金庫副總兼任，為什麼？農金資公司是誰在支持？農業金庫！百分百，農業金庫是誰支持？農業部跟全國的農漁會耶！我不相信全國的農漁會跟農業部接受這樣資安高風險的商業竊取，這表示農漁會都接受，如果縱容這樣一個外包公司隨意進入到任何一個農會來竊取資料，表示農業部所有各部門的資料也都可以由外面所有任何公司來駭客你，這是何等嚴重！所以我要求，這已經是低度喔，我還沒有針對農金資公司來做處罰，我只是說撤換它的外包公司，怎麼可以這樣，怎麼一點資訊安全都無法維護，而且因為商業競爭的關係已經到商業間諜了，商業間諜不是本席講的，是我們這四個單位告訴我的。還有球員兼裁判，農金資公司董事長不應該由農業金庫副總來兼任，這是我認為應該、該有的，如果是屬實的話，至少本席也做出我自己該有的調查，你們也應該要做到該有的調查，這是你要回應的。","第二個，農民跟農業機構有關外籍農業移工引進的部分，請評估以農業行為來認定，或者是租地契約跟台糖一樣，就是改為兩年以下，滿兩年後我就可以來聘請外勞。什麼叫做農業行為認定？譬如說我雖然這樣才兩年，可是我之前的租約，一樣是這塊土地的租約行為，我已經租了兩年了，我是不是可以合併起來就達到三年，這是一種，我沒改你的三年的規定，但是可以用合併的。另外一種是我的租約就是跟台糖的租約是一樣的，否則你就去協調台糖嘛。","第三個，這個是您剛才有講到的，以地區農會來申請農業移工方式，提供區域農業勞動力的短期需求。","部長，請你簡單回應這三個問題，資安、農業缺工。"],["陳部長駿季：我非常簡單的回應，有關於剛才講的農金資公司跟南農還有一些農會之間的關係，我想我們會分兩個階段，第一個階段是先去釐清現象是什麼，如果那個現象真的如剛才委員所說的，是惡意竊取的話，一定會去做非常嚴肅的調查，必要的時候我們也會請數發部來協助。第二個部分，針對農地缺工的部分，我們也一直在鬆綁，包括您剛才講的那個三年的部分，其實現在我們已經有鬆綁了，就是只要你拿出續約的部分，但是相對的，我們會用地的概念、從事的行為去處理，我想我們會再持續檢討……"],["林委員岱樺：你那個三年的部分並沒有解決，你的規定，因為你的辦法很清楚就是三年，台糖是兩年……"],["主席：因為已經超過5分鐘，是不是……"],["林委員岱樺：沒關係，我沒有意見，如果你要堅持，就繼續讓大農戶沒有辦法引進外勞嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會來檢討。"],["林委員岱樺：好，你們會檢討。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請邱議瑩委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","蔡易餘","鍾佳濱","張嘉郡","張啓楷","黃仁","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","洪申翰","葉元之","邱志偉","陳亭妃","陳冠廷"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.7815937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.98409375,"end":3.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":6.966593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":8.485343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.560343750000001,"end":44.682218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.644718750000003,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.04909375,"end":19.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.79596875,"end":52.056593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.29284375,"end":54.672218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.634093750000005,"end":64.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.03346875,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.70346875,"end":73.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.36971875,"end":74.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.45409375,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.88846875,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.13284375,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.85346875,"end":86.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.89096875,"end":87.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.30846875,"end":87.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":94.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.34534375000001,"end":111.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.94784375,"end":100.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.92909375,"end":116.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.32909375000001,"end":118.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.59471875000001,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.58596875,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.68284375,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.64846875,"end":131.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.65596875,"end":134.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.11534375000002,"end":153.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.89721875,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.33409375000002,"end":176.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.66159375,"end":189.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.22909375,"end":210.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.68159375000002,"end":212.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.92596875,"end":213.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.17471875,"end":214.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.71034375000002,"end":221.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.70096875000002,"end":231.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.53471875000002,"end":271.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.54971875,"end":277.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.54034375000003,"end":280.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.52721875000003,"end":286.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.10846875000004,"end":290.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.29346875000005,"end":293.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.62221875,"end":297.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.70159375000003,"end":301.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.09346875,"end":310.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.17221875,"end":311.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.57721875000004,"end":311.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.45471875000004,"end":313.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.48409375,"end":314.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.46284375000005,"end":315.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.47096875,"end":316.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.97721875,"end":318.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.96846875,"end":326.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.84909375,"end":342.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.84659375,"end":358.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.02971875000003,"end":378.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.15721875,"end":402.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.47846875000005,"end":445.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.59846875000005,"end":458.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.38534375,"end":465.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.40534375000004,"end":473.79659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.37034375,"end":498.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.61534375,"end":507.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.36096875000004,"end":516.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.94596875,"end":525.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.7547187499999,"end":534.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.5803437500001,"end":537.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.2084687500001,"end":541.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.1909687500001,"end":546.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.2747187500001,"end":565.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.33534375,"end":563.4365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.82846875,"end":577.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.99971875,"end":629.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.28284375,"end":630.5147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.5147187499999,"end":630.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.5990937500001,"end":630.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.8015937499999,"end":641.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.63534375,"end":675.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.9172187500001,"end":686.4890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.3090937500001,"end":678.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.38471875,"end":683.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.3503437500001,"end":685.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.8940937500001,"end":687.63659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.549,"end":6.674,"text":"請登記第一位的林岱樺委員發言請有請部長我們請陳部長"},{"start":14.585,"end":39.159,"text":"好 部長今天針對兩個議題一個是農業資訊安全一個是農業勞動力缺乏資訊安全的部分本席要提出一個案例我們來進行剖析討論第二個在農金署針對農業資訊的這兩個一個單位你們是否有公平對待針對南農中心跟農金資訊公司好 再者再次我們農業勞動力匱乏好這邊部長要請您表態資安"},{"start":43.741,"end":68.113,"text":"是不是國安?如果是你能夠接受您的下面各部各屬施各單位違反治安原則嗎?第三個你能夠接受您所有下面的各單位在處理民眾爭議的時候是不公平的嗎?這三個您必須要執行表態我才能夠繼續的來跟您討論"},{"start":70.814,"end":72.696,"text":"您能夠接受您下面的單位違反治安的原則嗎?"},{"start":89.502,"end":90.382,"text":"我 我想"},{"start":119.933,"end":134.3,"text":"我們來看這個案例最近才發生在這個我就先以這張圖一個是神崗農會這是受害者他的旁邊呢這叫無辜的受害者"},{"start":135.58,"end":153.445,"text":"這邊有農金資公司南農中心 那農金資公司我說過 這家公司政府百分百支持 不要說政府啦 就是農業金庫百分百投資 但是他完全所有業務都在外包 沒有設計人員 所有的維護也是都是外包"},{"start":154.045,"end":165.395,"text":"好那也沒關係反正你們接受嘛你們認為農業部有錢嘛好但是呢他竟然允許外包公司進到神農區農會然後呢去竊取南農中心在神崗農會的資料而且呢我為什麼說竊取這已經是從商業競爭當中的商業間諜了"},{"start":176.784,"end":196.635,"text":"因為他用了一個任何的資訊系統其實這兩方不管南農中心或農經資他們是有約定軟體的甚至你看這個末端獨立系統南農中心都有規範的好所以呢你在農經資公司你運行的外包在約定作業範圍外的木馬城市"},{"start":199.116,"end":213.024,"text":"你用了這個在這個在這個這個神鋼農會當中的這個外包公司叫商商商商的末端來竊取南農中心的資料好也那這個呢你們來這邊"},{"start":216.267,"end":231.7,"text":"我怎麼知道從去年在今年5月的時候南龍中心檢測就發現到高頻率的交易異常性每6秒固定竊取共66000餘次經查是非約定的程式"},{"start":232.602,"end":248.727,"text":"好 這個都已經 這個我為了齁好 來我們來看你能夠允許你的部會農金屬是怎麼樣的處理他今天7月4號要開個會他也出席喔邀了農金資喔已經南農中心結果你們說什麼我只針對"},{"start":250.027,"end":275.894,"text":"受害者叫做神崗農會信用部跟受害者南農中心的轉換系統的爭議來釐清問題你加害著農經公司你是不處理的我為了來質詢這個東西本期邀請了誰邀請了國安這個治安我們國家在處理這個治安是哪一個部門訴法部我邀請訴法部下面的治安院公共工程委員會經管會"},{"start":277.954,"end":285.76,"text":"農業移工政策改善措施 結論是什麼兩個他說因為發現得早尚未達到資訊外洩因為發現得早第二個這是嚴重的資安風險我找了四個單位來來確認這個案情這樣的分析結果你看你們農金屬"},{"start":298.769,"end":300.712,"text":"所以我請了四個單位來好所以呢這個下面下面"},{"start":317.133,"end":322.077,"text":"那這個議題最後您再來回應我先針對農業勞動力的問題我們現在農業農家戶啊76萬戶農家的這個人口數是239萬人我實質農牧的從業戶是多少76萬降為35萬只有一半的從事而這35萬當中的高齡農牧戶65歲上的佔46%"},{"start":342.975,"end":358.09,"text":"而我們來看產值這個是我們行政院主計處提供的在這個農林榆木葉這個的產值從108到我們去年112我的農業產值的逐年比是持平而且還逐年下降"},{"start":359.271,"end":377.987,"text":"當然這樣的微幅下降表示什麼我獲利期望低啊所以農業從業人口從在將近10年前104年這10年來我減少了5萬人關鍵原因就是我農業對年輕世代的吸引力不足所以農業缺工不是未來是他是一個進行式"},{"start":380.196,"end":400.798,"text":"好 那這個你們現在的農業引進外勞是利益良善規則清楚但是是不盡現實你們的規定說這個10人以下一共一比一甚至容器這個我都沒有意見但是重點是你什麼叫不盡事實你說這個租約一定要3年以上你才可以申請外勞好 來往下"},{"start":403.533,"end":409.698,"text":"那你這個通常我們是小農喔我們大概1.1公頃大概一甲一甲大概就是呢我夫妻倆或者是我這個一個人到兩個人的作業能力我就可以處理完所以我平常我不可能去請一個外這個移工啊請不起啊但我什麼時候需要對於這小農來講我們是需要他在產收的時候採收的時候我是需要的所以本席是支持你剛才講的"},{"start":429.195,"end":457.874,"text":"您們說要用一個這個派遣的一個概念區域農業然後這個區域集中然後來做外派這個本席是支持因為你可以解決我這種小農的緊急需要但是針對大農來我看右邊台糖大面積在1.1公斤以上的大概大面積兩三公斤以上的大概都要跟台糖租台糖的租業你看一般短期我做瓜果類蔬菜類我下面的租期是幾年兩年以下"},{"start":459.155,"end":474.309,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":475.25,"end":498.77,"text":"我具體要求第一個請農業部接同訴發部因為訴發部既然是國安主責治安針對農經資訊公司及委外業者利用神鋼農會系統轉放從事非約定的軟體程式安裝進行調查如果這個行為屬實本席要求兩個要處理第一個農經公司撤換外包公司"},{"start":499.671,"end":504.274,"text":"第二個避免求員兼裁判農經資訊公司的董事長不應該由農業金庫副總監任為什麼?農經資公司是誰在支持農業金庫?百分百!農業金庫是誰支持?你農業部跟全國的農運會耶!"},{"start":517.023,"end":522.365,"text":"我不相信我全國的農漁會跟我的農業部接受這樣的資安高風險的商業的一個竊取這表示你農漁會都接受我如果重農這樣的一個外包公司隨意的進入到我任何一個農會來竊取資料那表示你農業部所有各部門的資料也都可以由外面的所有任何公司來駭客你"},{"start":542.43,"end":554.477,"text":"這是 這是何等嚴重 所以我要求 我這個已經低度喔 我還沒有針對農經資公司來做處罰 我只說策劃他的外包公司怎麼可以這樣維護 怎麼這麼一點 這個資訊安全而且因為商業競爭已經叫商業間諜了 商業間諜不是本席講的 是我們這四個單位告訴我的"},{"start":567.029,"end":591.037,"text":"還有求員兼裁辦農經公司你不應該有農業金庫副總來兼任這是我認為應該該有的如果是屬實的話至少本期我也做出我自己該有的調查那你們也應該要做起該有的調查這是你要回應的第二個我農民跟農業機構有關外籍農業移工的部分評估以農業行為來認定或者是租地契約跟台糖一樣就是改為兩年以"},{"start":591.937,"end":597.98,"text":"以下呢我就可以兩年了我就可以來聘請外勞什麼叫做農業行為認定比如說我雖然這樣才兩年啊可是我之前的租約跟一樣這塊土地同樣的租約行為那我已經租了兩年了那我是不是可以合併起來我就達到三年這是一種我沒改你三年但是可以用合併的那另外一種是好我的這個租約就是跟我台堂的這個租約是一樣的或者你就去協調台堂嘛"},{"start":618.712,"end":640.752,"text":"好那第三個這個是您剛才這個有講到的以區域地區農會來申請農業移工提供區域農業勞動力的短期需求請你簡單回應這三個問題治安農業缺工我想非常簡單的回應就是有關於剛才講的這些農經濟公司跟南農還有一些農會之間的關係我想我們會分兩個階段一個階段是先去釐清"},{"start":642.373,"end":657.999,"text":"現象是什麼現象是什麼然後必要如果是真正的那個現象如剛才委員所說的這樣的一個惡意的這種竊取的話那一定會去做很非常嚴肅的一個調查那我們必要者也會請那個塑化部來協助那第二個部分喔"},{"start":658.559,"end":682.59,"text":"我想針對農地的部分就是缺工的部分我們也一直在鬆綁那包括您剛才講的那個3年的部分其實現在我們已經有鬆綁了就是只要你拿出續約的部分但是相對的我們會用地的概念從事的行為去處理我想我們會持續的檢討你那3年沒解決你的規定因為你的辦法很清楚就3年台糖是2年沒關係我沒有意見如果你要堅持就繼續讓大農戶沒有辦法已經外來吧好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154374","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154374","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c09cc0107abf97f6fda706b406df85b80e70b5822ad681b8933cbce93769d80bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:41:07 - 11:50:36","影片長度":"00:09:29","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:41:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:50:36+08:00","duration":569,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1046,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時41分）謝謝主席，本席請鍾副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：副主委辛苦了，今天都是你在答詢。首先請教副主委，您認為今天審議的法案是不是典型的原住民自治議題？是或不是就好了。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這是組織法，是原民會的組織法規。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那它算不算一種原住民自治的議題？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當然，如果……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是嘛！很典型……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：在行政運作上原民自主、自行，還有獨立的預算。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我就問是或不是。剛剛我也聽到林委員質詢的時候說，您支持原住民自治嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：長期目標。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你要表達支持嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：支持。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果不討論人事法規、行政院組織等等，您贊不贊成提案主委由山原、平原輪做的主張？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，因為山原、平原是在早期……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我先瞭解您贊不贊成山原、平原輪做的主張？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為這樣的輪流主張也涉及到未來提名人任命的權力部分，即任用權。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，那您贊不贊成？不要浪費我的時間，您贊不贊成，贊成或不贊成？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：以目前來講，目前原民會的推動還算順利，因為從剛剛委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以您贊成嘛！目前提案的這種自治應該還算是蠻低度的自治吧？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，因為自治是一個很龐雜的議題，可能要有配套的措施。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！所以目前的提案都算比較低度的吧？我現在提強度更高的，就是由原住民自己選主委或是原住民的領袖，副主委，你的看法支不支持呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這就涉及到憲法的層次。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你不敢講支不支持？還是你支持呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：以目前來講，我們算是在國家政府組織推行政務要直接對人民負責這樣一個憲政體制底下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！所以你那你認不認同原住民自己選出主委或是原住民的領袖？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：原住民領袖都有，現在各族群都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你指的是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：比如說像頭目、傳統領袖。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，但是他沒有實質的政治權力。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果原住民自己組成最高的議會，您的看法如何，同意嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我是同意，因為現在各族都有民族議會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，你同意喔！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：比如說排灣族、卑南族、魯凱族都有民族議會在運作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席是想表達，原住民自治應該不是只有選出最高領袖還有最高議會，應該有更多原住民自治事項的問題，譬如教育、經濟、文化、語言等等，對此你講一下你的概念跟想法好不好？這個給你多一點時間，給你30秒。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，也是謝謝委員，我們的看法應該是相同的，因為就原住民語言的部分必須要自治，所以108年通過原住民族語言法，讓原住民族的語言成為國家的語言，也挹注很多的經費……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，我指的是更多原住民自治事項，語言只是其中一項。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，包括教育的部分也有原住民族教育法，我們民族教育這個區塊……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，對於我們推動原住民自治這些比較具體、實體事項的推動程序的規劃，你怎麼來推動？你是要整體推動還是採用分流立法？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：現在是採分流立法的方式，因為以目前推動的相關工作，包括所謂的鄉鎮市區長，像以山地原住民鄉鎮為例，所有的鄉鎮市區長一定要具有原住民身分，所以就鄉來講，它算是鄉自治的一個機制。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！所以您現在所講的很多分流的推動，很多都是周邊的事物嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那一些比較自治的核心事項你有沒有想過？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，跟委員報告，因為自治上次提到過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那最核心的是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：五進五出在立法院，因為它涉及到整個行政區的劃分，這個也會面臨衝擊，比如說花蓮、臺東這兩個縣，因為都是原住民鄉鎮，所以會涉及到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：為什麼會五進五出啊？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：從89年就開始提出草案……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是因為沒有共識還是怎麼樣？還是不完備？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：它裡面有爭議的議題很多，我舉一個例子，在民族自治以後……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以爭議的原因是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：就一個行政區域來講，它的影響，比如說花蓮、臺東兩個縣可能就會不存在了，它如果要民族自治的話……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以會影響到我們一般非原住民的意思？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，也會影響到。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這個需要比較久的時間，大家要有共識。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：包括我們在新竹就有2個鄉，它要脫離新竹縣，變成是這樣子……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：而且民族跟民族之間有一些重疊的地方。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以怎麼樣具體推動而且可以落實，這個才是你們的挑戰，好不好？接著，因為時間不多了喔！","接下來本席要就原住民就業自治條例的部分來就教於您，行政院5月3號函告臺北、新北，對不對？你應該很清楚，有關原住民就業自治條例部分條文無效，雙北市政府分別在5月30及6月3號提起訴願，那行政院原民會也回應了，地方政府提出訴願將循程序進行，請問副主委無效的理由是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，因為這個不是我督導的業務，我們請科長……"],["徐委員欣瑩：科長瞭解嗎？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員報告，因為雙北的那個自治條例，因為目前我們有原住民族工作權保障法，主要有第四條、第五條還有政府採購法的相關規定已經有規範了，所以牴觸的是這兩部法律。"],["徐委員欣瑩：牴觸了？"],["李科長珮瑄：是抵觸了原住民族工作權保障法以及政府採購法的相關規定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那這樣本席就教您一下，原住民族工作權保障法第二十四條也有規定得標廠商應一律依差額人數乘以每個月基本工資來計算繳納代金，經過司法院大法官釋字第810號解釋是違憲，是違憲！而且特別提到最慢要於本解釋公布之日，是110年10月8日起，兩年內要依據這一個司法院解釋違憲的意旨要修正之。它2年內要修正，我們現在已經超過2年又8個月了，為什麼沒有修正？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員說明，我們目前這部法律已經送進立法院了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經兩年多了，還所謂送進立法院，那為什麼沒有審？什麼時候送進立法院的？"],["李科長珮瑄：今年2月的時候，行政院……"],["徐委員欣瑩：今年2月？今年2月也已經超過2年內，你今年2月已經超過2年4個月，才送進立法院？"],["李科長珮瑄：是，跟委員補充說明，去年就先送了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以過去這2年4個月在做什麼？"],["李科長珮瑄：去年在9月的時候已經送過，然後今年又再送第二次。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以9月的時候沒有審完，是不是？完全沒審？那你們有沒有去拜託召委排案？執政黨每一個委員會也都有召委，是不是？我們最想知道你們的立場跟態度是什麼、究竟打算怎麼做？因為你們都回復說已經送立法院，這個答案我知道啊！但是就這句話，然後繼續躺在那，對不對？繼續躺，然後都一直過期，你到底有沒有真的想要做維護原住民族的工作權保障？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員報告，關於原住民的工作權保障，釋字第810號解釋的意旨是說2年內要儘速修正，在還沒有完成修正前應該要有一些配套的措施，現在如果我們針對……"],["徐委員欣瑩：重點我們是立法委員，但你一直還沒修正嘛？而且還拖那麼久！我現在就是在問為什麼拖那麼久？當然這個不是科長你的問題，副主委，你要加把勁吧？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好，這個部分的確是超過2年了，應該要在2年內處理……"],["徐委員欣瑩：2年又8個月，快3年了。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦！加油好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，我們努力，然後就這個案子做推動，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK。"],["主席：接下來我們請張智倫委員、張智倫委員、張智倫委員，張智倫委員沒有來。","所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束，委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本聯席會。","委員黃建賓、高金素梅、傅崐萁、翁曉玲、王美惠、吳琪銘、楊瓊瓔所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.41909375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.93784375,"end":1.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.730343750000001,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.075343750000002,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.817843750000002,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.218468750000003,"end":16.230968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.450343750000002,"end":16.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.82159375,"end":25.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.85534375,"end":17.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.86221875,"end":28.313468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.465343750000002,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.07284375,"end":32.329718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.49846875,"end":33.291593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.595343750000005,"end":38.337218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.337218750000005,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.96159375,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.555968750000005,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.68659375,"end":44.361593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.610343750000006,"end":47.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.17534375,"end":53.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.406593750000006,"end":54.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.45721875,"end":54.773468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.773468750000006,"end":67.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.790343750000005,"end":54.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.86846875,"end":70.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.93096875,"end":76.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.64784375,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.12409375,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.58784375,"end":82.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.30909375,"end":84.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.50284375000001,"end":90.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.01284375,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.61159375000001,"end":93.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.36221875000001,"end":95.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.64034375,"end":102.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.48346875,"end":101.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.80409375,"end":101.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.90534375,"end":105.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.12409375,"end":106.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.44034375000001,"end":110.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.13596875,"end":112.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.39721875000001,"end":119.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.94909375,"end":122.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.65784375000001,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.11721875,"end":123.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.77534375,"end":133.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.67659375,"end":137.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.87034375000002,"end":139.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.27909375000002,"end":141.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.46471875,"end":141.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.23659375,"end":144.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.78471875,"end":146.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.36659375000002,"end":152.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.12596875,"end":148.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.08721875,"end":158.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.61784375000002,"end":162.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.55409375000002,"end":163.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.12346875,"end":166.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.87846875000002,"end":169.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.74284375000002,"end":170.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.19846875000002,"end":176.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.10471875000002,"end":184.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.00721875000002,"end":180.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.53409375,"end":183.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.01909375000002,"end":186.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.33096875,"end":186.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.49971875,"end":200.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.51659375,"end":186.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.42221875,"end":196.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.75909375,"end":201.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.06284375,"end":207.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.33659375000002,"end":204.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.42096875000001,"end":204.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.50534375,"end":204.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.18846875000003,"end":222.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.92471875,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.59909375,"end":230.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.39221875,"end":226.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.70409375000003,"end":230.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.62784375,"end":239.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.35346875000002,"end":231.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.14534375000002,"end":241.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.03534375,"end":246.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.62971875000002,"end":264.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.64909375,"end":256.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.82909375,"end":272.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.73096875000005,"end":272.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.83221875000004,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.03471875,"end":277.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.06846875,"end":273.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.02971875000003,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.06284375,"end":283.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.36221875,"end":287.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.61471875,"end":288.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.32346875,"end":295.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.49971875,"end":295.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.59659375,"end":296.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.01846875,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.03534375000004,"end":296.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.37284375,"end":299.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.33034375,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.59596875,"end":301.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.59159375,"end":301.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.70534375,"end":306.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.27846875,"end":308.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.86471875,"end":312.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.97846875000005,"end":310.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.39596875,"end":316.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.75784375,"end":319.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.82534375,"end":317.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.83784375000005,"end":320.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.82471875000005,"end":322.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.85409375,"end":323.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.13659375000003,"end":327.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.06034375,"end":326.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.49034375,"end":337.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.82784375,"end":328.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.05534375,"end":330.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.99596875000003,"end":332.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.97034375000004,"end":333.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.67034375000003,"end":344.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.93971875,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.01971875000004,"end":342.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.77909375,"end":342.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.86346875000004,"end":343.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.87596875,"end":344.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.11221875,"end":344.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.85471875,"end":376.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.21221875000003,"end":379.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.76909375,"end":383.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.19471875000005,"end":385.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.06346875,"end":386.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.63721875000005,"end":398.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.67721875,"end":401.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.99346875000003,"end":402.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.36471875,"end":407.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.10659375,"end":407.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.68034375,"end":410.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.71784375000004,"end":452.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.07846875,"end":455.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.77409375,"end":456.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.78221875,"end":462.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.78159375,"end":466.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.31221875000006,"end":482.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.33284375000005,"end":471.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.92221875,"end":483.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.97221875,"end":487.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.71034375000005,"end":486.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.16596875000005,"end":486.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.18284375,"end":486.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.95471875000004,"end":487.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.97159375,"end":488.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.00534375,"end":488.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.03909375,"end":488.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.23721875,"end":490.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.23284375000003,"end":496.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.55659375000005,"end":498.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.39596875,"end":509.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.97659375,"end":514.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.35971875,"end":516.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.9965937500001,"end":518.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.2365937500001,"end":525.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.47159375,"end":528.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.91034375,"end":540.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.9465937500001,"end":552.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.8559687500001,"end":553.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.48034375,"end":554.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.1553437499999,"end":561.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.62346875,"end":555.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.27284375,"end":560.9053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.1922187499999,"end":563.4365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.1540937500001,"end":566.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.9553437500001,"end":566.0690937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.209,"end":14.492,"text":"首先請教副主委您認為今天審議的法案是不是典型的原住民自治議題?"},{"start":26.969,"end":52.483,"text":"是或不是就好了?這是組織法,是原民會的組織法規。那它算不算一種原住民自治的議題嗎?當然,如果說在整個行政運作上,原民自主自行,還有獨立的預算。對對對,我就問是或不是。那剛剛我也聽到林委員質詢的時候,您支持原住民自治嗎?"},{"start":53.784,"end":70.229,"text":"您要表達支持嗎?支持那如果不討論人事、法規、行政院組織等等您贊不贊成提案主委山原平原輪座的主張?您贊不贊成?我先了解山原平原輪座的主張"},{"start":83.339,"end":112.553,"text":"因為這樣的輪流主張,它也涉及到未來提名的任命的權利的部分。對,那您贊不贊成嗎?不要浪費我時間,您贊不贊成?贊成或不贊成?以目前來講,目前原命會推動還算順利啦,因為從剛剛委員提出的幾個。好,所以您贊成嘛,贊成嘛。好,那這個目前提案的這種自治應該還算是蠻低度的自治吧?"},{"start":113.664,"end":139.155,"text":"更為包括因為自治是一個很龐雜的一個議題可能要有配套的措施對啊對啊所以目前的提案都算比較低度的吧那我現在提比較強度更高的就是由原住民自己選主委或是原住民的領袖主委你的看法支不支持呢這個就涉及到憲法的層次所以你不敢講支不支持嗎還是你支持呢"},{"start":142.424,"end":163.286,"text":"以目前來講我們算在所謂的國家政府組織推行政務要直接對人民負責這樣的一個憲政體制底下對嘛所以你那你認不認同原住民自己選出主委或是原住民的領袖原住民領袖都有現在都各族群都有那你指的是什麼"},{"start":164.312,"end":166.653,"text":"原住民自治應該不是只有說選出最高領袖還有最高議會"},{"start":192.94,"end":207.035,"text":"應該有更多原住民自治的事項的問題,譬如教育、經濟、文化、語言等等。在您的看法,這個給你多一點,給你30秒,你講一下你的概念跟想法。"},{"start":207.936,"end":213.378,"text":"我指的是更多原住民自治事項,語言只是其中一項。包括您教育的部分,因為有原住民教育法,民族教育這個區塊。"},{"start":231.805,"end":238.758,"text":"這個對於我們推動原住民自治這些比較具體實體事項的推動程序的規劃"},{"start":240.659,"end":263.636,"text":"你怎麼來推動?整體推動還是你們是採用分流立法?現在採用分流立法的方式因為以目前推動的相關工作包括所謂的鄉鎮市區長大概像以三地原住民鄉鎮所有的鄉鎮市區長是一定要具有原住民身份所以他就鄉來講他算是一個鄉自治的一個機制"},{"start":266.465,"end":283.13,"text":"對阿,所以您現在所講的很多分流的推動,很多都是周邊的事務嘛。是。那一些比較自治的核心事項,你有沒有想過?有,根本沒有辦法,因為自治上次提到過,因為它無盡的出在...那最核心的是什麼?"},{"start":283.47,"end":305.602,"text":"五進五出在立法院因為它涉及到整個行政區域的劃分這個也會面臨衝擊比如說花蓮、台東這兩個縣因為都是原住民鄉鎮為什麼會五進五出啊?草案從89年就開始提出草案是因為沒有共識還是怎麼樣?還是不完備?它裡面的爭議的議題很多比如說我舉一個例子"},{"start":307.378,"end":326.274,"text":"對於一個行政區域來講,他的影響,比如說花蓮台東兩個縣可能就會不存在了。他要民族自治的話,因為他只會跟原住民相正。所以會影響到我們一般非原住民的意思。也會影響到,對對對。所以這個需要比較久時間,大家要有共識。"},{"start":327.915,"end":329.116,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":344.95,"end":360.431,"text":"接下來本席要就原民就業自治條例的部分來就教於您。行政院5月3號函告臺北新北,對不對?您應該很清楚。有關原住民就業自治條例部分條文無效。"},{"start":362.052,"end":376.597,"text":"雙北市政府分別在5月30、6月3號提起訴願。行政院原民會也回應了,地方政府提出訴願將循程序進行。副主委,請問無效的理由是什麼?"},{"start":386.69,"end":398.729,"text":"各位委員報告因為這個雙北的那個自治條例因為目前我們有原住民族工作權保障法主要有第四條第五條還有政府採購法的相關規定已經有規範了所以抵觸的是這兩部法律"},{"start":400.64,"end":402.943,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":418.542,"end":444.08,"text":"一律依差額人數乘以每個月基本工資來計算繳納貸金經過司法院第810號解釋是違憲而且特別提到說要致辭這最慢於本解釋公布之日是110年10月8日起兩年內要依據"},{"start":445.381,"end":456.645,"text":"這一個司法院的解釋違憲的意旨要修正之。他兩年內要修正。我們現在已經超過兩年又八個月了。為什麼沒有修正?兩年多了,還所謂送進立法院。那為什麼沒有審?"},{"start":468.379,"end":496.452,"text":"什麼時候送進立法院的?今年2月的時候,行政院...今年2月,今年2月也已經超過這個兩年,兩年內你今年2月已經超過兩年四個月才送進立法院所以過去這兩年四個月在做什麼?去年在9月的時候已經送過,然後今年又再送第二次所以9月的時候沒有審完是不是?完全沒審那你們有沒有去拜託召委排案啊?執政黨每一個委員會都也有召委"},{"start":498.309,"end":525.649,"text":"所以我們最想知道那你們的立場跟態度是什麼?究竟打算怎麼做?就是因為你說你們都回復說已經送立法院了這個答案我知道啊但是就這句話然後繼續躺在那對不對繼續躺然後都一直過期那你到底有沒有真的想要做維護原住民族的這個工作權保障?"},{"start":528.433,"end":528.513,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":552.916,"end":553.978,"text":"兩年又八個月,快三年了。"}]}},{"id":"154371","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154371","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726caa591fd2a0acb27fda706b406df85b80e70b5822ad681b8986af387943562f755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:34:04 - 11:41:03","影片長度":"00:06:59","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:34:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:41:03+08:00","duration":419,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":990,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時34分）我們請副主委。"],["主席：麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：林委員好！"],["林委員倩綺：鍾副好！請問一下，主委今天為什麼沒有來？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：主委有其他的會議，沒辦法來……"],["林委員倩綺：有行程，對吧……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：所以就請假……"],["林委員倩綺：剛才應該也有委員問過……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是、是。"],["林委員倩綺：剛才休息的時間你們沒有跟他講一下有委員在關心嗎？有沒有？行政作為要加油，也要加強，好嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是、是。"],["林委員倩綺：要不然常常讓主委在很辛苦的狀態下。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["林委員倩綺：好。今天本席這邊的討論及建議針對這個條文，很多東西也請你一定要帶回去，我想知道主委的想法及意向……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好。"],["林委員倩綺：既然今天是副主委您來，一些相關的概念我想跟你做一個討論。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["林委員倩綺：第一個，你希望原住民族自治嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這是長期的目標，一直希望，二十年前大概都開始在推。"],["林委員倩綺：大家都希望嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["林委員倩綺：所以這是我們作為原住民很期待跟希望，而且希望能夠真正落實的一個目標，我們都有這樣一個共同的方向要走。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["林委員倩綺：那你同意現在原住民族自治暫行條例的草案嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為草案過往的歷史是五進五出，所以現在都還在討論中。"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們有什麼樣的看法？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：現在是朝分流立法的方式，目前對比較可以成為民族自治的族群，像魯凱族、太魯閣族，我們在兩年前就跟他們有一些合作，請他們內部就什麼要自治、要如何自治等相關的議題民主去做一個討論，很快大概這兩個民族的一些意見都會提供給我們。"],["林委員倩綺：你們排灣族你自己有沒有在參與？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：排灣族的部分在三年前也成立了民族議會，他們也正在思考這個方向，因為排灣族分布在臺東跟屏東兩個區域，屏東大概有四分之三的人口，臺東有四分之一的人口。"],["林委員倩綺：那你們繼續加油，我們每一個族群都要好好加油。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["林委員倩綺：如果你同意跟我們都希望原住民族有機會自治的話，可以請你針對鄭委員這邊所提出來的，你們認為與憲法有牴觸的部分，可以告訴本席為什麼原住民不能以自身的想法跟理念朝向自治邁進呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為以目前原民會成立28年來，它整個組織法的運作在不同的政黨之下執行得還算順暢，鄭委員提的提案，不管是任命的部分或者是審查同意的部分，甚至時間保障的部分，因為這個跟憲法有些明文的規定是有相牴觸的部分，所以我們就這個部分其實還有很多必須要突破的，當然像第五十六條就明定，部會首長必須是院長提請總統任命。"],["林委員倩綺：鍾副，我們是原住民，國家這個概念應該在我們存在之後才有的，所以如果憲法給予我們寬廣的空間，針對第十條第十二項，你有沒有可能在這樣一個思維下，不要自己受限，在現有的條文之內自我矮化跟自己設限？這樣才會是我們原住民在朝向我們期待的方向，才有可能的可能性跟思維，你不覺得嗎？你聽得懂我講這句話嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：理解，因為憲法按照目前所謂的政黨政治跟行政議題，我想現在連釋憲的部分都有特別提到這樣的任命都有相關的原則跟規定。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝鍾副，我一直跟您強調，第十條的這個部分你們應該跳脫現在已經被殖民跟被框架的思維，跳出來到憲法層次來思考原住民的特殊性跟未來，這是我給你的一個建議。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["林委員倩綺：好好的想一想，先把它想通、想懂，然後再試著看看，不要自己先跳到已經被殖民、被框架的條文之內去思考，這樣我們可能會離我們共同的目標還有一段很長的距離。","另外，其實像高金委員提出政委兼主委這樣的一個概念，我覺得挺好的，我來問一個問題，本席有碰到啦，不曉得你們覺得是怎樣，我覺得所有原住民的立法委員都很認真的在幫你們推動行政事務，你知道為什麼嗎？我們在行政單位都待過，你覺得原住民的事務有一個共同的困境是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：比較複雜、多元。"],["林委員倩綺：因為複雜、多元，所以是一個原民會就可以做的嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當然原民會要綜理整個原住民的相關政務跟法規。"],["林委員倩綺：是啊！所以你覺得以你目前的行政能耐能夠去統合各部會嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前我們在各部會之間都有相關的平臺在推動相關跨部會的合作工作。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，在本席私下跟你們同仁討論一些原住民族業務的時候，你們甚至有人還不太清楚其他部會是怎麼推動的，有些平臺你們可能還不太清楚在討論些什麼，都要本席幫你們在其他的事務上跟委員會來做爭取跟推動。所以我要講的是，如果政務委員有機會來擔任這樣一個位子，能兼任主委的話，他有沒有可能在一個比較高的高度上來解決你們行政上的困難，你覺得有沒有可能？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，因為這涉及到行政院的人事法規……"],["林委員倩綺：同樣的喔！不要再自我行政殖民受限，跳脫出來一個原住民主體的思考，好嗎？這是我給你們的建議。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：今天你們既然談到憲法的層次，請你以憲法的最高層次來為族群、原住民族爭取最大的利益，最重要的是自己的主體性不要在國家概念上的思維被自我矮化。謝謝，我們共同來努力。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。下一位請徐欣瑩委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.77284375,"end":5.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.287218750000001,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.30409375,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.957843750000002,"end":9.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.927843750000001,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.180968750000002,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.459093750000001,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.21784375,"end":22.930343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.83784375,"end":24.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.85846875,"end":24.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.33096875,"end":28.718468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.06846875,"end":30.422843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.07659375,"end":38.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.23221875,"end":35.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.978468750000005,"end":59.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.45721875,"end":53.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.62971875,"end":57.304718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.54471875,"end":65.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.26971875000001,"end":74.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.18096875,"end":66.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.93096875,"end":73.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.66909375,"end":75.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.81659375000001,"end":77.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.47034375,"end":78.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.09471875,"end":80.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.79471875,"end":83.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.23284375,"end":90.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.42596875000001,"end":95.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.47596875,"end":97.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.10034375000001,"end":101.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.96909375,"end":99.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.23034375,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.37784375000001,"end":105.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.97221875000001,"end":107.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.09846875000001,"end":112.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.04284375,"end":121.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.62784375000001,"end":125.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.66971875,"end":125.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.31096875,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.66534375,"end":127.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.36971875,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.90096875,"end":130.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.29284375,"end":141.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.28284375,"end":146.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.68346875,"end":145.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.72534375,"end":147.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.02909375000002,"end":152.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.24346875,"end":152.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.41221875000002,"end":166.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.66721875000002,"end":184.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.16659375,"end":199.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.62846875000002,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.36159375000003,"end":217.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.60034375,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.11034375000003,"end":222.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.13534375,"end":225.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.30784375000002,"end":228.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.73784375000002,"end":229.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.25659375,"end":232.06221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.19284375,"end":234.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.22659375,"end":233.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.52596875,"end":248.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.44784375,"end":259.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.04096875,"end":266.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.56721875,"end":268.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.59659375,"end":268.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.88346875,"end":272.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.93409375000005,"end":268.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.27534375,"end":281.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.91096875,"end":284.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.94846875,"end":286.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.07034375,"end":288.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.67784375,"end":294.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.71471875000003,"end":296.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.30096875000004,"end":300.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.03034375000004,"end":312.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.90159375,"end":318.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.90096875,"end":320.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.11159375,"end":322.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.42346875000004,"end":327.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.28346875,"end":334.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.68346875000003,"end":336.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.22721875,"end":338.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.57284375,"end":345.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.10346875000005,"end":364.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.17221875,"end":365.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.47159375,"end":379.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.32596875,"end":382.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.38471875000005,"end":382.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.68846875,"end":386.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.65034375000005,"end":384.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.61221875,"end":388.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.75534375,"end":387.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.08409375,"end":389.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.72534375000004,"end":392.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.72471875,"end":395.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.66534375000003,"end":396.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.96471875000003,"end":406.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.38096875,"end":406.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.44409375000004,"end":413.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.59909375,"end":416.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.30346875000004,"end":417.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.08784375000005,"end":419.40846875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.356,"end":30.312,"text":"主委,請問一下主委今天為什麼沒有來?主委,他有其他的會議有行程嘛,對吧?剛才應該也有委員問過啦。剛才休息的時間你們沒有跟他講一下有委員在關心嗎?有沒有?"},{"start":40.52,"end":59.515,"text":"今天本席這邊的一個討論跟建議針對這個條文那很多東西也請你一定要帶回去我想知道主委的一個想法跟意向今天是副主委您來一些相關的概念我想跟您做一個討論第一個你希望原住民族自治嗎?"},{"start":60.855,"end":83.169,"text":"這是長期的目標一直希望20年前大概都開始在推大家都希望嘛所以這是我們這個原住民很期待跟希望而且希望能夠真正落實的一個目標那我們都有這樣一個共同的一個方向要走所以你同意現在原住民族自治的暫行條例嗎"},{"start":86.417,"end":110.123,"text":"因為目前的草案是因為前面的歷史過往是五進五出所以現在都還在討論中那所以你們有什麼樣子的看法現在是朝分流立法的方式那目前也對比較可以成為民族自治的族群像包括盧凱族還有太魯閣族我們在兩年前就跟他們有一些"},{"start":111.492,"end":121.55,"text":"請他們就內部民族去做一個討論然後什麼是自治要如何自治等相關的議題那很快大概這兩個民族的一些意見都會提供給我們"},{"start":123.298,"end":141.278,"text":"排灣組的部分在三年前也成立了民族議會他們也正在思考這個方向因為排灣組的部分分布在台東跟屏東兩個區域那屏東大概四分之三的人口台東有四分之一的人口"},{"start":143.322,"end":145.203,"text":"為什麼原住民不能以自身的想法跟理念朝向自治邁進呢?"},{"start":167.711,"end":182.404,"text":"因為以目前原民會成立28年來他整個組織法的運作在不同的政黨之下執行的還算順暢那政委員提案這個部分提的不管是任命的部分或者是"},{"start":182.964,"end":183.084,"text":"主席"},{"start":200.45,"end":221.958,"text":"中副,我們是原住民,國家這個概念應該在我們存在之後才有的。所以,如果憲法給予我們寬廣的空間,那針對第10條第12項,你有沒有可能在這樣一個思維下,不要自己受限,在現有的條文之內自我矮化,跟自己設限?"},{"start":223.178,"end":247.776,"text":"那這樣才會是我們原住民在朝向我們期待的方向才有可能的一個可能性跟思維,你不覺得嗎?你更懂我講這句話嗎?理解,那因為憲法有按照目前所謂的政黨政治跟行政議題我想現在連市縣的部分都有特別提到這樣的一個任命都有相關的原則跟規定"},{"start":250.238,"end":265.616,"text":"我一直跟您強調第10條的這個部分你們應該跳脫現在已經被殖民跟被框架的思維跳出來到憲法層次來思考原住民的特殊性跟未來"},{"start":267.705,"end":294.224,"text":"這是我給你一個建議那好好地想一想先把它想通想懂然後再試著看看不要自己先跳到已經被殖民被框架的條文之內去思考那這樣我們可能會離我們共同的目標還有一段很長的距離好那另外一個是剛才我們七十將高金委員的這個政委來兼"},{"start":295.765,"end":321.515,"text":"主委的這樣一個概念我覺得挺好的那我來問一個問題本席有碰到啦不曉得你們覺得是怎樣我覺得所有的原住民的立法委員都很認真的幫你們在推動行政事務那你知道為什麼嗎我們在行政單位都待過你覺得原住民的事務有一個共同的困境是什麼比較複雜多元"},{"start":323.842,"end":325.583,"text":"委員會組織法三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":347.319,"end":365.47,"text":"在本席私下跟你們同仁在討論一些原住民族的業務的時候你們甚至有人還不太清楚其他部會是怎麼的推動的有些平台你們可能還不太清楚在討論些什麼然後都要本席幫你們在其他的事務上跟委員會來做爭取跟推動"},{"start":366.731,"end":392.507,"text":"所以我要講的是那如果政務委員有機會來擔任這樣一個位置主委能兼任主委的話他有沒有可能在一個比較高的高度上來解決你們行政上的困難你覺得有沒有可能同樣的喔同樣的喔不要在自我、行政、殖民、受限跳脫出來一個原住民主體的思考"},{"start":394.343,"end":416.079,"text":"這是我給你們的建議所以今天你們既然談到憲法的層次請你以憲法的最高層次來為族群原住民族爭取最大的利益最重要的是自己的主體性不要在國家概念上的思維被自我矮化謝謝我們共同來努力"}]}},{"id":"154369","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154369","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c9705864529ca6eaada706b406df85b80e70b5822ad681b891bae9e624ca930fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:23:54 - 11:33:34","影片長度":"00:09:40","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:23:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:33:34+08:00","duration":580,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":952,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時23分）請副主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：今天來看我們幾個修法的提案，我謝謝鄭天財委員，剛剛我們在臺下有作了一些討論，我覺得多討論有利於我們更瞭解原民的想法，也更瞭解提案委員的初衷，我謝謝鄭天財委員給我很多的指導，但當我看到不管是鄭天財委員的提案或是高金素梅委員的提案，針對原住民族委員會組織法的一些任用的方式，我個人粗淺的判斷還是認為它涉及侵害憲法規定的人事任命權，也就是立法侵害行政權的疑慮。我們都支持原民政策，也支持讓原民的各項照顧的福利措施更好，但是會不會因此又開創了一個違憲的惡例呢？我們應當要深思。","針對今天的修法提案，如果依委員的提案，未來強制要求原住民族委員會的主委要兼任政務委員的話，那恐怕涉及影響行政權的人事任命權，我認為在憲法的分際上是值得商榷的。要讓主委是由山地原住民、平地原住民來輪流擔任，我個人也會粗淺的認為，這會不會又落入了過去傳統統治框架的迷思，會不會是走回頭路？也可能去戕害了現在原住民族16族的主體性，這是我的質疑。主委由審查會來行使同意，甚至創設了從來沒有見過的，主委的任命是由地方議會的議員以及鄉鎮市長來審查，這對於中央地方的權責會有所混淆，因為史上未見。","基於這三點理由，就教於副主委，我的這些分析你們會裡的立場是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：就剛剛委員的分析，我們是非常的認同，因為就如同我們所寫的報告一樣，這個也涉及到憲法第五十六條，由行政院院長提名總統任命相關部會的首長，而且山原平原這個本來就是以前統治者為了管理方便所做的分類……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，不要再落入過去的框架。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，而且也都有一種聲音，就是希望回到民族的主體性，由各族來看各族的相關事務。特別提到委員無給職這個部分，我們也是認為，我們的族群委員代表各族來到原民會參與相關的重要事務……"],["吳委員思瑤：他也有很多的業務要進行。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，當然，特別提到，如果是由縣市議員、鄉鎮長來審查同意，這個反而跟第五十六條所謂的首長任命有相違背。"],["吳委員思瑤：有所扞格。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝副主委的回答。","我們看看行政院現行的二級委員會，主委的任命都是中央院長的權責，這非常的清楚，而目前有兼任政委的是國發會及國科會，但這兩個由政委來兼任主要是因為國發會處理了很多預算、公建預算，它要分配到各個部會，國科會也基於它的科學政策導入，它過去從科技部再回到國科會的組織調整都經過非常縝密的討論，也就是國發會及國科會基於它的特殊屬性，由政委來兼任，能夠協力各個部會都進行國家發展以及科技發展的重要政策，所以它有必要。其他的委員會，陸委會、金管會、海洋委員會、僑委會、退輔會，還有原民會、客委會，都沒有用政委來兼任的例子，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：從以前到現在都沒有。當然我的辦公室有原民的助理，我辦公室也有客家籍的助理，當我們在討論這個提案的時候，我們客家籍的助理就會說，那我們客委會主委要不要也北客、南客來輪，或者是依客家所謂的五種腔調（四海大平安）都來輪流擔任？我想這比較不需要這樣為分而分，這是我個人的看法，而且是基於現在任命的一致性與需要性。","對於這幾個委員的提案，我表示尊重，但我認為值得大大的商榷。","剛剛講到，還有另外一個提案，也就是要把行政院原民會（屬於行政院二級機關）的委員從有給職改為無給職，就我所知道，這些委員當然跟總統府原轉會是任務編組的屬性、本質完全不同，這些擔任原民會的委員們平常是不是事務很多？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，事務很多，除了參加會議，還要包括會勘、審查，甚至參與部落的一些活動。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以他不是只有諮詢的那一類委員……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：不是、不是。"],["吳委員思瑤：他實質上是有政務推展和去執行的必要。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我認為應當維持他的有給職，否則我看以後不會有人來做這個工作吧！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：而且他還有蠻重要的角色，就是原民會跟族人之間的溝通橋梁。"],["吳委員思瑤：是、是、是，所以基於他的穩定性，以及他實質的工作必要性，維持有給職是對於這些委員合理的、應當有的工作上的支持。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我看到高金素梅委員在他的提案裡頭有提到，為什麼他主張讓原民會的主委由政委來兼任？是因為現在族群歧視很嚴重，他認為讓政委來兼任原民會的主委，可以有力的來反族群歧視，這是高金素梅委員在他的提案說明裡頭很重要的一個重點，這就剛好是我長期在推動的，但我認為反族群歧視我們需要一個專法，而不是讓原民會的主委由政委來兼任就可以改變我們要去扭轉的族群間的平等。","現在反歧視條款散列在7個法律裡面，欠缺法的一致性，所以我多次在這裡都提出以下的這些說法，今天是就教於原民會。我們好幾個委員，林德福委員、鄭天財委員、伍麗華委員、陳瑩委員，都針對反族群歧視有提過法案，而在陳建仁院長的指示，曾經一度說，由內政部來主責，以反歧視族群、平等來立法，但是經過行政院的審視，也包括本席一直在司法及法制委員會的倡議，我們認為臺灣如果要有一部反歧視法或是平等法，都應當是方方面面，統一規範所有的反歧視行為，不只是族群的，包括性別的、工作的，包括同志的或是身心障礙的，應當擴大反歧視的面向，來做一個專法的立法，以利於從法律面、組織面及制度面來百花齊放，大家一起全力來協力推動。法務部是同意的，之前的蔡清祥部長到現在的鄭部長都同意這個方向，因此行政院已經從原本請內政部來做反歧視法，現在提升到由行政院人權及轉型正義處做，他們辦理了三場公聽會，提出了行政院版的反歧視法草案，已經公告了。對於受保護的特徵、行為領域、除外條款、政府義務，乃至於受歧視者的賠償及救濟，有一個專法的版本，5月我們看到，期待未來會送到立法院來審議，我想請問在這一個法的討論裡頭，原民會應該扮演了非常重要的角色吧！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，我們都有參與。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果有這樣一個專法，搭配剛剛高金素梅委員所提的，一定要由政務委員來兼任原民會的主委才能夠做到反歧視的作為，你覺得法比較有效，還是這個人事任命比較有效？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當然制度法規很重要。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以我希望從這個面向也能夠說服我們高金委員的提案，真的要做到反族群歧視，我們需要一個專法，用法律來支持各項作為，而不是只獨從原民會的主委用政委來兼任能夠達到這個目標，我認為這是另外一個反向的思考，而且是一個更有力的作法。","我分享我的觀點，我們持續來強化跟幾位提案委員的溝通，好嗎？也謝謝鄭天財委員，他剛剛也同意我們今天進行詢答，來爭取更多的時間，讓朝野的委員來進行對話，後續再進行逐條的審查，也謝謝主席，謝謝大家，辛苦了！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。副主委請回。","下一位蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員。","陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員。","下一位請林倩綺委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.1822187500000005,"end":5.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.2790937499999995,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.805968750000002,"end":9.430343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.66659375,"end":25.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.81596875,"end":63.632843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.07159375,"end":83.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.06409375000001,"end":86.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.59534375000001,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.28659375000001,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.80409375,"end":108.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.42721875000001,"end":132.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.44471875000002,"end":148.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.63659375,"end":149.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.34096875,"end":155.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.25159375,"end":157.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.10784375,"end":164.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.23721875,"end":165.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.92909375000002,"end":171.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.51034375,"end":178.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.79659375,"end":178.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.46721875,"end":181.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.82534375,"end":184.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.66034375,"end":184.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.67721875,"end":184.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.69409375,"end":185.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.03159375,"end":185.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.06534375,"end":185.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.89221875,"end":187.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.46159375000002,"end":192.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.00534375,"end":252.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.67909375000002,"end":254.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.69159375,"end":264.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.54659375,"end":269.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.67659375,"end":283.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.85159375,"end":298.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.76909375,"end":309.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.15971875,"end":312.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.72471875,"end":313.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.47971875,"end":324.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.00971875000005,"end":325.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.92096875000004,"end":332.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.33784375000005,"end":347.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.08221875000004,"end":352.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.00971875000005,"end":358.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.74284375,"end":366.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.97784375000003,"end":410.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.02159375,"end":417.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.95721875000004,"end":430.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.68096875000003,"end":432.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.97596875000005,"end":464.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.97096875000005,"end":484.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.63034375,"end":508.81221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.03596875000005,"end":508.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.06534375,"end":518.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.5659687500001,"end":519.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.28721875,"end":522.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.4765937500001,"end":530.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.96909375,"end":531.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.84659375,"end":532.6397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.07846875,"end":536.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.8078437500001,"end":538.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.73159375,"end":550.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.29096875,"end":552.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.61971875,"end":554.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.6953437500001,"end":556.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.46721875,"end":578.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.40471875,"end":578.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.97846875,"end":579.80534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.572,"end":25.252,"text":"請副主委謝謝主席麻煩副主委委員好謝謝今天來看我們今天的幾個修法的提案那我謝謝鄭天財委員剛剛我們在會議期間在台下有多了一些討論我覺得多討論有利於我們更了解原民的想法"},{"start":25.908,"end":50.234,"text":"也更了解提案委員的很多初衷。我謝謝鄭天財委員給我很多的指導。但當我看到不管是鄭天財委員的提案或是高金素梅委員的提案,針對原住民族委員會組織法的一些任用的方式,那我個人粗淺的判斷,我還是認為它涉及有侵害了憲法的人事任命權,也就是立法侵害行政權的疑慮。"},{"start":51.414,"end":77.82,"text":"所以我們都支持原民政策我們支持讓原民的各項照顧的福利措施更好但是會不會因此又開創了一個違憲的惡例呢我們應當要深思下一頁所以針對今天的修法提案如果說依委員的提案未來強制要求原住民族委員會的主委要兼任政務委員的話那恐怕涉及了影響行政權的人事任命權"},{"start":79.241,"end":82.849,"text":"我認為在憲法的分際上是值得商榷的。下一頁。"},{"start":85.1,"end":108.741,"text":"那要讓主委是由山地原住民平地原住民來輪流擔任那我個人也會粗淺的認為這會不會又落入了一個過去傳統的一個統治框架的迷思會不會是走回頭路那也可能去強害了現在原住民族16族的主體性這是我的質疑好下一頁"},{"start":110.655,"end":130.467,"text":"主委由審查會來行使同意甚至創設了一個從來沒有見過的主委任命的審查會是由地方議會的議員以及鄉鎮市長來審查這對於中央地方權責的混淆因為它史上未見所以基於這三點理由就交予副主委我的這些分析你們會裡的立場是什麼"},{"start":133.499,"end":148.16,"text":"其實就剛剛委員的分析我們是非常的認同因為就我們所寫的報告一樣這個也涉及到憲法56條新政院長提名總統任命相關部會的首長那因為三元平原白你有按麥克風嗎"},{"start":149.121,"end":153.323,"text":"委員高金素梅等26人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等26人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．吳思瑤"},{"start":172.56,"end":182.957,"text":"委員．吳思瑤委員他代表各族的代表來到原民會參與相關的中央事務．吳思瑤他有很多的業務要進行．吳思瑤對那當然特別提到如果說是由縣市議員鄉鎮長來做一個"},{"start":186.05,"end":189.612,"text":"主委的任命都是中央院長的權責這非常的清楚而目前有兼任政委的是國發會跟國科會"},{"start":206.86,"end":222.137,"text":"但這兩個由政委來兼任主要是因為國發會處理了很多預算公建預算他要分配到各個部會國科會也基於他的科學政策的導入他過去從科技部再回到國科會的"},{"start":226.66,"end":252.598,"text":"國會及國科會基於他的特殊屬性由政委來兼任來能夠協力各個部會都進行國家發展以及科技發展的重要政策所以他有必要其他的委員長陸委會、金管會、海洋委員會、橋委會、退府會還有原民會、科委會都沒有用政委來兼任的"},{"start":253.898,"end":253.918,"text":"吳思瑤"},{"start":273.968,"end":297.527,"text":"或是所謂一克家的五種腔調這個四海大平安都來輪流來擔任我想這是一個比較不需要這樣為分而分這是我個人的看法而且是基於現在的任命的一致性跟需要性所以我對於這幾個委員的提案我表示尊重但我認為值得大大的商榷好下頁"},{"start":298.823,"end":324.25,"text":"那剛剛講到還有另外一個提案也就是提到要把行政院的原民會這屬於行政院二級機關的委員從有幾職來改為無幾職這些委員就我所知道他們當然跟總統府的原轉會是任務編組這個屬性本質完全不同那這些擔任我們的原民會的委員們平常是不是事務很多"},{"start":326.091,"end":346.885,"text":"對,失誤很多,除了參加會議還有包括會刊、審查甚至參與部落的一些活動。所以他不是只有諮詢的那一類的委員嗎?他實質上是有政務推展跟去執行的必要。所以我認為應當維持他的有給值,否則我看以後不會有人來做這個工作吧?"},{"start":347.125,"end":347.265,"text":"委員高金素瑤"},{"start":367.032,"end":392.332,"text":"那因為我看到高金素梅委員在他的提案裡頭有提到說為什麼要讓他主張讓原民會的主委是由政委來兼任是因為現在族群歧視很嚴重他認為讓政委來兼任原民會的主委可以有利的來反族群歧視這是高金素梅委員在他的提案說明裡頭很重要的一個重點"},{"start":394.914,"end":409.966,"text":"這剛好跟我長期在推動的我認為反族群歧視我們需要一個專法而不是讓原民會的主委由政委來兼任就可以去改變我們要去扭轉的這個族群間的平等好下一頁"},{"start":411.267,"end":431.068,"text":"現在的反歧視法在7個法律裡面都散列欠缺法的一致性所以我多次在這裡都提出以下的這些說法今天是就教於原民會我們好幾個委員林德福委員鄭天財委員吳立華委員陳瑩委員都針對反族群歧視有提過法案"},{"start":433.03,"end":462.293,"text":"但是在陳建元院長的指示曾經一度說那由內政部來主責以反族群歧視平等來立法下頁但是經過行政院的審視也包括本席一直在司法法制委員會的倡議我們認為台灣如果要有一部反歧視法或是平等法都應當是方方面面統一規範所有的反歧視的行為不只是族群的它包括性別的工作的包括不同的同志的"},{"start":462.853,"end":464.033,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具 «原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。．吳思瑤"},{"start":484.699,"end":508.384,"text":"因此行政院已經從原本請內政部來做反歧視法現在已經提升到行政院的人權及轉型正義處辦理了三場公聽會提出了行政院版的反歧視法的草案已經公告了對於受保護的特徵行為領域除外條款政府的義務乃至於受歧視者的賠償及救濟有一個專法的版本五月"},{"start":510.224,"end":535.956,"text":"我們看到,然後未來期待會送到立法院來審議。我想請問,在這個法的討論裡頭,原民會應該扮演了非常重要的角色吧?有,我們都有參與,對。所以,那如果有這樣一個專法,那搭配剛剛高金素梅委員所提的,一定要由政務委員來兼任原民會的主委,才能夠做到反歧視的作為,那你覺得法比較有效,還是這個人事任命比較有效?"},{"start":536.857,"end":536.877,"text":"議員吳思瑤"},{"start":552.731,"end":552.971,"text":"謝謝五委員"}]}},{"id":"154366","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154366","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c370d8ab4ee1b4c9dda706b406df85b80e70b5822ad681b89ce2e2fcc1480a81a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:12:07 - 11:18:35","影片長度":"00:06:28","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:12:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:18:35+08:00","duration":388,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":882,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時12分）謝謝主席，有請副主委。"],["主席：好，副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：副主委，我要繼續追蹤上次兩會基金會員工的宿舍問題，後來我們好不容易在6月25號收到你們來的合宜住宅規劃建議案的評估，前面我實在是很不高興，憑良心講，因為你這份報告裡面花了大部分的篇幅去講沒辦法做這個事，那我在質詢的時候，好幾次的質詢，我是沒有講，我們提這個概念的用意是要解決兩會基金會員工因為基金會搬家產生的通勤問題。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我有沒有講說一定要合宜住宅不可？有嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：也倒不一定。"],["牛委員煦庭：倒也沒有嘛，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為還有好幾種方式，合宜住宅是一個選項。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你花這麼多篇幅去講這個選項不可行幹什麼呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為他們董事會有一個董事一直往這邊去建議基金會是不是朝合宜住宅去處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：那是他的建議案，你跟他溝通沒有問題，但是我的質詢是要求你解決住宿跟通勤的問題，降低因為搬家造成的離職問題嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你要針對我的問題來處理啊！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可能業務單位在處理這個部分有一些誤解。"],["牛委員煦庭：又有誤解了，搞這麼久的時間還有這麼多誤解，那不是很奇怪嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為當時通知我們是說針對合宜住宅這個部分，是不是可以做一個說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：然後你就只針對這個說明，那我前面三次質詢都白講了就對了。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有，那個部分也都還在進行中。"],["牛委員煦庭：那請問現在有其他案子嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：並沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：並沒有，那什麼叫做還在進行中？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：就是還在討論，因為目前原文會的基金會跟工會之間很多東西都必須要有一些共識。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，第一個問題，你在那邊花很多篇幅去講合宜住宅不可行，尤其是你講取得土地很困難，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是我要問你，取得土地真的有這麼困難嗎？除了移轉或者是價購之外，難道沒有別的方法嗎？我們的目的如果是要有一個完整的員工宿舍，讓你的員工有個安居的地方，降低通勤成本，你租一塊土地做員工宿舍，可不可以？你租既有的閒置空間，可不可以？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，那都是方法。"],["牛委員煦庭：那為什麼你都沒有寫在報告裡面呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，所以可能一直對合宜住宅這個部分來做論述，的確你剛剛講的沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：你如果可以成就這件事，你多花點時間論述，我也很高興啊，你寫了一大堆然後結論是不能，這也不能，那也不能，那不是推責任是什麼？我這樣跟你講，你現在要處理土地，你講說因為這個是兩個基金會處理的，所以原民會沒有辦法協助用地取得，我今天就出示一份公文，國有非公用不動產提供必要審查意見表，你主管機關只要敘明理由，不就處理完了嗎？該租用或該取得不就有空間了嗎？怎麼可能我們國家的法律會限制你去做這個事情呢？那你們有往這個方向想過嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：應該沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：那怎麼辦呢？我更生氣的是，我看到你資料裡面寫，最後你要解決這些員工的問題，總共的經費，我唸給你聽，這是你的報告，經原文會與工會研議結果，交通補助712萬8千，搬遷補助389萬4千，托育補助90萬，非自願離職988萬8千，這些數字加起來大概就2,000萬，我請問你，你搬遷的時候有多少員工受到影響？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：他們大概有三百多位。"],["牛委員煦庭：三百多位員工，因為很多人要離職，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：然後你就編這兩千多萬，你就打發這群人了，是嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：也並不是。"],["牛委員煦庭：不是，你就是這樣寫的啊！你就寫這兩千多萬要處理這些事情，他們都是原住民的弟兄耶！而且難得有一個很好的工作機會，在裡面可以推動原住民的文化，推動原住民的影視相關工作，你不用善待這些人才嗎？你們作為主管機關，不用善待這群人才嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這一定要善待他們，因為也不容易培養到這樣一個程度。"],["牛委員煦庭：是嘛！萬一他們都離職了，你就把九百多萬離職資遣費發出去，這件事就算了，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：那個是最下下策了。"],["牛委員煦庭：那就對了嘛！為什麼只有兩千多萬呢？你們沒有誠意是什麼呢？影響幾百個人，今天不是說二十個人、十個人，大家個別協商就可以處理了，三百多個人是很重要的勞動問題耶！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒錯，沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們政府難道能夠打壓基層勞工嗎？尤其是原住民弟兄，很奇怪吧？那還有沒有別的方法？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，上次可能我們自己有一些誤解的部分，有關整個搬遷事宜，我會很快的找兩個基金會一起來討論，因為目前工會跟基金會之間一直陸續有一些討論，一直還都沒有一些共識，我們會協助他們。"],["牛委員煦庭：海基會辦公室也是租的，國防部國家安全研究院辦公室也是租的，你們那個地方，我們曾經盤點過桃園的土地之所以好用，就是因為那邊未來有航空城開發計畫，怎麼樣也會有一些國有或市有的土地，你沒有辦法價購我理解，原民會要編預算很困難，但你可以租賃，你可以長租、可以交換，有很多方式可以處理嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我也講你講合宜住宅，它可能不是那麼適合現在的政策方向，我也可以理解啊，我的目標就是給他們一個漂亮亮亮且距離很近的員工宿舍，這有困難嗎？難道不應該努力一下嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有必要。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那你什麼時候可以提出新的報告？這份我們就作廢了，丟垃圾桶，可以嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為這份實在很荒唐。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員給我一個月，好不好？"],["牛委員煦庭：再給你一個月？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我已經連續四次跟你們原民會的質詢都講這一題了，那我就再給你一個月。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為我知道委員當時是在5月初還是4月底有提出這個問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！下個會期之前再給你多一點時間，解決這三百多人的通勤跟居住問題。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好，可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：給他們一個漂亮的員工宿舍，做政府機關的好示範，可以嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：你說可以的？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時18分）","繼續開會（11時23分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請吳思瑤委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.650343750000001,"end":7.709093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.04659375,"end":8.907218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.68284375,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.31909375,"end":19.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.91721875,"end":26.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.32221875,"end":26.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.33909375,"end":26.355968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.355968750000002,"end":26.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.64284375,"end":30.827843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.895343750000002,"end":36.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.088468750000004,"end":39.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.37909375,"end":44.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.61471875,"end":44.665343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.665343750000005,"end":44.783468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.783468750000004,"end":47.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.80034375,"end":45.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.90534375,"end":48.242843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.242843750000006,"end":50.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.04409375,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.80346875,"end":51.820343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.820343750000006,"end":57.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.81596875,"end":53.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.08971875,"end":57.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.59159375,"end":57.962843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.962843750000005,"end":66.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.12596875,"end":68.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.19346875000001,"end":76.84596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.14659375000001,"end":70.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.84596875000001,"end":77.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.60534375,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.96784375,"end":90.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.34284375,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.33846875,"end":86.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.96596875,"end":92.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.25284375000001,"end":95.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.74596875,"end":96.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.80909375,"end":96.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.92721875000001,"end":96.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.94409375000001,"end":96.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.23471875000001,"end":100.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.82096875,"end":102.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.47909375,"end":103.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.51284375,"end":103.62659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.62659375000001,"end":112.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.72221875000001,"end":112.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.22846875,"end":115.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.53596875000001,"end":122.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.31971875,"end":124.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.26471875000001,"end":125.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.47534375000001,"end":126.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.52159375000001,"end":131.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.65596875,"end":140.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.81471875,"end":144.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.83534375000002,"end":146.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.10096875000002,"end":147.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.42971875,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.30721875,"end":149.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.60659375,"end":151.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.87221875,"end":155.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.70721875,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.67596875,"end":166.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.72221875000002,"end":182.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.37784375,"end":185.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.74034375000002,"end":188.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.07721875000001,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.46034375000002,"end":196.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.30409375000002,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.45159375,"end":198.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.49784375000002,"end":205.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.93971875000003,"end":207.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.89721875,"end":224.90721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.08846875,"end":226.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.08409375000002,"end":229.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.24409375000002,"end":236.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.59409375,"end":230.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.46284375000002,"end":233.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.49659375000002,"end":234.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.53409375,"end":237.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.39034375000003,"end":240.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.32659375000003,"end":242.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.01409375000003,"end":245.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.45659375000002,"end":248.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.53221875000003,"end":259.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.55971875,"end":264.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.44534375,"end":265.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.50846875,"end":270.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.77346875,"end":272.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.29221875,"end":272.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.59596875,"end":273.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.43971875,"end":273.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.33409375,"end":275.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.61221875,"end":285.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.13409375000003,"end":285.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.72471875,"end":289.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.74159375,"end":285.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.98971875,"end":291.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.16659375,"end":294.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.82034375,"end":299.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.62971875,"end":314.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.91846875000005,"end":337.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.24409375000005,"end":337.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.20596875,"end":344.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.73659375,"end":344.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.98971875,"end":349.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.00659375000004,"end":345.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.22096875,"end":351.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.90846875,"end":352.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.83659375,"end":353.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.88721875000005,"end":353.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.98409375,"end":357.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.94534375,"end":360.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.16034375000004,"end":361.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.72971875,"end":367.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.74659375000005,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.72471875,"end":371.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.35284375000003,"end":370.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.06159375000004,"end":371.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.41596875000005,"end":384.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.44971875000005,"end":372.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.18284375,"end":378.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.01346875,"end":383.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.00471875000005,"end":384.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.66284375000004,"end":386.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.84409375,"end":388.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.94909375000003,"end":388.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.361,"end":7.323,"text":"謝謝主席,副主委有請"},{"start":13.957,"end":34.27,"text":"牛委員好副主委我要繼續追蹤喔上次那個兩會基金會員工的這個宿舍的這個問題喔是是所以後來我們好不容易在6月25號收到你們來的這個合約住宅規劃建議案的評估啦是是那我前面我實在也是我是很不高興我憑良心講因為你這份報告裡面你花了大部分的篇幅去講說這個沒辦法做這個事"},{"start":37.165,"end":51.153,"text":"那我在質詢的時候好幾次的質詢我是沒有講我們要提這個概念的用意是要解決兩會期因為你搬家所以要解決這員工的通勤問題所以我有沒有講說一定要合一住宅不可有嗎"},{"start":52.117,"end":55.422,"text":"因為他們裡面董事會有一個董事一直往這邊去建議他們基金會是不是朝合一住宅去處理"},{"start":67.839,"end":94.832,"text":"那是他的建議案你跟他溝通沒有問題但是我的質詢是要求你解決住宿跟通勤的問題降低因為搬家造成的離職問題嘛那你要針對我的問題來處理啊那可能在優待會在處理這個部分有一些誤解又有誤解了搞這麼久的時間還這麼多誤解那不是很奇怪嗎因為當時通知我們說針對合以住宅這個部分是不是可以做一個說明然後你就只針對這個說明那我前面三次質詢都白講了就對了"},{"start":95.742,"end":95.782,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":101.834,"end":103.455,"text":"除了移轉或者是架構之外,難道沒有別的方法嗎?"},{"start":131.741,"end":132.601,"text":"為什麼你都沒有寫在報告裡面呢?"},{"start":154.96,"end":164.247,"text":"你如果可以成就這件事你多花一點時間論述我也很高興啊你寫了一大堆然後結論是不能啊這也不能那個也不能那不是推責任是什麼"},{"start":165.728,"end":191.211,"text":"我現在跟你講嘛你現在要處理土地你講說原民會因為這個是兩個基金會處理的所以原民會沒有辦法協助用地取得我今天就出示一份公文啊國有非公用不動產提供有必要審查意見表你的主管機關只要續名理由不就處理完了嗎該出用或該取得不就有空間了嗎怎麼可能我們國家的法律會去限制你去做這個事情呢那你們有往這個方向想過嗎"},{"start":195.829,"end":212.352,"text":"回答應該沒有那怎麼辦呢我更生氣的是我看到你資料裡面寫什麼最後你要處理這些解決這些員工的問題你總共的經費唸給你聽啦這是你的報告經原文會與工會研議結果交通補助712萬8千搬遷補助389萬4千托育補助90萬非自願離職988萬8千這些數字加起來大概就2千萬我請問你搬遷的時候多少員工受到影響"},{"start":226.158,"end":245.576,"text":"多少員工他們大概有300多位300多位員工對要因為很多人離職對不對是然後你就編這2000多萬你就打發這群人了是嗎也並不是你就是這樣寫的啊你就是這樣寫的啊你就寫說我就是這2000多萬要處理這些事情了"},{"start":246.761,"end":274.949,"text":"他說是原住民的弟兄捏而且是在你這個難得有一個很好的工作機會在你裡面可以推動原住民的文化推動原住民的隱世相關的這些工作你不用善待這些人才嗎?你們作為主管機關不用善待這一群人才嗎?這個一定要善待他們因為不容易培養到這樣的一個程度是嗎?那萬一他們都離職了你就把900多萬離職資遣費發出去這件事情就算了是不是?因為那個是最下下策了那就對了嘛為什麼只有2000多萬呢?"},{"start":276.63,"end":277.431,"text":"我想跟委員報告因為上次可能在整個我們是有些誤解的部分"},{"start":299.69,"end":314.492,"text":"有關在整個搬遷的事以後我會很快的時間也會找兩個基金會在一起來討論因為他目前一直陸續的還在工會跟基金會之間有一些討論那一直還都沒有一些共識的部分我們會協助他們"},{"start":315.313,"end":337.021,"text":"海基會辦公室也是租的國防部國家安全研究院辦公室也是租的你那個地方我們曾經盤點過桃園的土地之所以好用就是因為那邊未來航空城開發計畫怎麼樣我也會有一些國有或者是室友的土地你沒有辦法架構我理解原民會要編預算很困難但你可以租賃你可以償租你可以交換很多方式可以處理嘛"},{"start":338.431,"end":357.587,"text":"我會講你講合一住宅他可能不是那麼合不是那麼適合現在政策的這個政策方式我也可以理解啊是但我的目標怎麼就給他一個漂亮亮亮而且距離很近的員工宿舍這有困難嗎難道不應該努力一下嗎有必要有必要對對對好那你什麼時候可以提出新的報告這份我們就作廢了丟垃圾桶可以嗎"},{"start":358.988,"end":359.288,"text":"謝謝,那我們現在休息五分鐘"}]}},{"id":"154364","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154364","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c338a0b1f213f800cda706b406df85b80e70b5822ad681b89b5c8fdb204d45c695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:03:25 - 11:12:04","影片長度":"00:08:39","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T11:03:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:12:04+08:00","duration":519,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":861,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時3分）主席、各位委員。有請鍾副主委，還有人事行政總處。"],["主席：麻煩鍾副主委，還有人事行政總處處長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：Nga'ay ho！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：Malimali Masalu！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：中華民國憲法增修條文規定，國家應依民族意願，保障原住民族之地位及政治參與。本席所提的修法都是合憲，你們提到憲法第五十六條，我們沒有違反，所以這個部分，我們一個一個來講。很重要的，原住民族基本法依憲法增修條文規定，要原住民族自治，但是8年來一直都沒有提，夷將主委8年來都沒有提，過去的主委、過去的總統都有送原住民族自治法到立法院，唯獨這8年來都沒有。蘇貞昌院長說分流立法，今天就是分流立法的開始，所以我才會提出增加第二項，由行政院長提名，給我們原住民去行使同意權，我本來要設計送到立法院行使同意權，但是立法委員原住民立委很少啊！所以交給原住民的民意代表，從區長以上的行使同意權，跟公平會、NCC、中選會送到立法院行使同意權的很多啊！大法官也是、考試委員也是、監察委員也是啊！對不對？這有什麼違反憲法？沒有違反憲法。","好，我們一個一個來，你說由政務委員來兼任不行，過去的蒙藏委員會就是由政務委員來兼任啊，對不對？一直到106年9月15號以前的蒙藏委員會都是由政務委員兼任的。現在行政院組織法第四條設了很多委員會。第五條規定，行政院置政務委員七人至九人，特任。政務委員得兼任前條委員會之主任委員。這是由高金素梅委員所提的，由政務委員來兼任，完全符合行政院組織法。","任期4年，你說不要有任期，會影響……，寫了很多理由，那個理由都不是理由，國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員的任期就是四年，中選會主委的任期是四年，公平交易委員會的任期也是四年。所以寫的時候要謹慎一點喔！包括人事行政總處也要謹慎一點，本席是老公務員，也是學法律的，過去很多組織法，尤其是原民會的組織法都是我在推動的。","好，我們看為什麼要有分山原、平原，過去從民國85年6月1號開始，原民會成立的歷任主任委員從華加志、尤哈尼．伊斯卡卡夫特是山原，任期都很短；陳建年主委是平原，任期比較長一點；瓦歷斯．貝林是山原；接下來第5位是夷將．拔路兒主委，他當了9年的主委，夷將主委當了9年，是平原；章仁香是平原、孫大川是平原、林江義是平原，對不對？夷將·拔路兒是平原、現在的曾智勇是山原，山原、平原真的不同啊！很多的地方不一樣，鍾副主委，對不對？","你沒有像我以前當副局長、當副主委的時候，我跑遍全臺灣啦！包括都會區，你就做不到，現在的主任委員更做不到，為什麼？因為他們也很忙，常常要來立法院，我也瞭解啦！所以主委是山原還是平原，絕對有差別。不然你回去查一下，夷將主委去山地鄉到底有幾次？有沒有深入到每一個部落？絕對沒有啦！所以這個部分有它的必要性，所以本席不會隨便提啦！","好，我們看馬英九時代，103年12月18號提出「原住民族自治暫行條例草案」，規定行政院應設原住民族自治政府，行政院設原住民族自治政府──這是行政院院會通過的，它的主席由各族委員推舉，而這些委員也就是由各族群去推舉，這個是由下而上的對不對？置主席一人，綜理自治區政業務，由委員推舉提請行政院院長聘任之。不是沒有過啊！院會通過了，因為人事行政總處處長比較年輕，過去沒有看到這個東西，鍾副主委，你應該有看過這個對不對？這個送到立法院了，很可惜沒有三讀通過啊！所以這個部分沒有通過，理由我就不講了，後來我們有把它改成推動條例。族群委員，你這邊寫得那麼長，理由都很好，但是過去八年來都沒有這樣做，本席擔任常務副主委、擔任處長的時候都符合你寫的啦！但是過去八年來都沒有做啊！原住民族自治，族群委員有沒有跟主委說一定要提？為什麼八年沒有提？土海法，他們要代表各族群，所以土海法要送啊！原民會連送都沒有送到行政院，這是唯一的，所以不得不修啊！這個部分是這樣，因為你根本就沒有善用族群委員，我也去了解過，你們的族群委員有沒有參加委員會議或相關的這些法案，沒有啦！每天在鄉下，你可能不知道啦，鍾副主委，你不知道。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，其實我們的各族群委員都有分別就各處室的一些工作，在地方做一些考察、會勘或者參與各項會議。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我都知道，我常常碰到他們，他們都代表主任委員參加婚喪喜慶！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：那是其中一項而已。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這不應該的！不應該的！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：參加部落的歲時祭儀。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個部分，因為時間的關係，後面還有很多委員要提，我要特別講的是，有一個案子比較急迫，0403地震，你回去趕快去查一下，然後協調行政院趕快核定，就是原民會有提0403震災花蓮部落旅遊振興計畫，總經費3,000萬元，到現在行政院還沒有核定，趕快協調，可以嗎？好，謝謝"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員。","下一位請牛煦庭委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.117218750000003,"end":18.340343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.340343750000002,"end":18.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.91409375,"end":21.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.78284375,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.63034375,"end":26.153468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.419093750000002,"end":27.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.43596875,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.942218750000002,"end":31.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.00471875,"end":35.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.97471875,"end":41.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.74159375,"end":46.268468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.72409375,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.34346875,"end":52.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.018468750000004,"end":56.460968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.70971875,"end":58.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.46471875,"end":60.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.101593750000006,"end":65.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.40034375,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.58971875,"end":71.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.34034375,"end":73.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.63971875,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.25971875,"end":76.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.13284375,"end":79.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.51221875,"end":81.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.53284375000001,"end":84.01784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.28784375000001,"end":85.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.63784375,"end":87.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.87784375000001,"end":90.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.80159375000001,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.64909375,"end":96.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.64034375,"end":98.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.69909375,"end":99.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.84221875,"end":106.64721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.17034375,"end":107.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.23346875,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.48971875000001,"end":116.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.49784375,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.26096875,"end":124.93971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.61471875000001,"end":126.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.81284375000001,"end":129.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.78284375,"end":131.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.67284375,"end":132.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.60096875000002,"end":135.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.19534375,"end":137.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.55784375000002,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.58284375,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.29159375,"end":146.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.34971875000002,"end":149.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.48409375,"end":154.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.09534375,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.67721875,"end":158.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.79096875000002,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.64284375,"end":165.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.28346875,"end":167.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.93284375000002,"end":170.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.80596875,"end":171.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.81846875000002,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.78846875000002,"end":176.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.18471875,"end":180.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.45846875,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.13284375,"end":189.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.80721875,"end":191.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.45659375000002,"end":193.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.35096875000002,"end":195.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.70909375000002,"end":197.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.82284375,"end":203.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.62784375,"end":205.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.10846875000001,"end":209.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.15846875000003,"end":212.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.39846875,"end":214.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.10284375,"end":216.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.97159375,"end":218.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.18659375000001,"end":219.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.06409375,"end":220.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.90784375,"end":223.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.58659375000002,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.54409375,"end":227.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.43409375000002,"end":232.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.31096875000003,"end":234.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.79596875000001,"end":236.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.27659375000002,"end":241.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.25909375,"end":243.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.97596875000002,"end":244.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.00096875000003,"end":246.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.55784375000002,"end":247.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.48159375,"end":248.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.86971875,"end":250.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.26596875,"end":252.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.58221875,"end":254.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.78846875000002,"end":257.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.99909375000004,"end":259.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.04096875,"end":260.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.74534375,"end":262.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.60159375,"end":264.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.08221875000004,"end":267.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.14096875,"end":269.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.89159375,"end":272.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.23721875,"end":276.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.40534375000004,"end":278.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.41346875,"end":287.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.58096875,"end":288.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.06596875,"end":292.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.65596875,"end":294.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.17909375,"end":295.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.95096875,"end":296.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.16596875000005,"end":298.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.53284375000004,"end":300.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.91221875,"end":304.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.13096875,"end":307.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.33721875000003,"end":308.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.28221875,"end":310.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.52659375,"end":311.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.38721875000005,"end":312.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.97784375000003,"end":313.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.09596875,"end":313.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.54721875,"end":324.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.90846875,"end":330.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.54034375000003,"end":332.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.36284375,"end":339.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.15909375,"end":342.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.72409375,"end":344.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.49596875000003,"end":345.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.44096875,"end":353.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.72659375,"end":355.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.46471875000003,"end":357.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.94971875000005,"end":359.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.73846875000004,"end":363.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.65346875,"end":365.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.89784375000005,"end":366.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.93971875,"end":369.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.82971875000004,"end":371.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.17534375,"end":372.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.39034375,"end":378.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.75659375000004,"end":379.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.12346875000003,"end":381.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.09784375000004,"end":382.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.56596875,"end":384.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.92846875000004,"end":386.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.22784375000003,"end":389.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.97846875000005,"end":392.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.47159375,"end":396.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.93096875000003,"end":398.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.31034375,"end":401.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.51659375,"end":403.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.52471875000003,"end":408.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.99659375000005,"end":409.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.11034375,"end":411.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.33784375000005,"end":413.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.19409375000004,"end":416.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.65784375000004,"end":417.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.19346875,"end":419.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.18471875,"end":421.51784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.74971875,"end":426.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.59721875,"end":427.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.49159375000005,"end":429.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.18721875,"end":432.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.07721875000004,"end":435.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.40596875000006,"end":438.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.72596875000005,"end":440.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.99159375000005,"end":442.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.18534375,"end":447.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.03284375000004,"end":458.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.40284375000005,"end":455.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.46159375,"end":465.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.31346875,"end":460.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.30409375000005,"end":469.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.03346875000005,"end":472.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.17221875,"end":476.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.06659375000004,"end":476.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.73284375000003,"end":476.74971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.74971875000006,"end":476.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.78346875000005,"end":477.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.07034375,"end":480.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.59721875,"end":481.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.57159375000003,"end":484.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.27159375,"end":487.68471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.14034375000006,"end":494.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.56971875000005,"end":496.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.51034375,"end":497.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.50596875,"end":499.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.27346875,"end":502.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.70346875,"end":503.71596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.83409375,"end":505.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.50471875000005,"end":509.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.13721875000005,"end":512.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.43659375000004,"end":510.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.55409375,"end":513.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.27971875,"end":519.3759687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":15.374,"end":39.684,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請中副主委。麻煩副主委。還有人事行政總署。麻煩處長。來齁。來齁。是,政委好。麻煩你,麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻煩你。麻"},{"start":42.779,"end":60.129,"text":"本席所提的修法都是合憲你們提到的這個56條憲法56條我們沒有違反所以這個部分我們一個一個來講很重要的原住民族"},{"start":61.195,"end":87.763,"text":"基本法依憲法徵修條文規定要原住民組織制但是一直8年來都沒有提一將主委8年來都沒有提過去的主委過去的總統都有送這個原住民組織法到立法院唯獨這8年都沒有蘇貞昌院長說分流立法今天就是分流立法的開始"},{"start":88.942,"end":114.088,"text":"所以我才會提出這個相關的這些第二項增加第二項由行政院院長提名給我們原住民去行使同意簽我本來要設計送到立法院行使同意簽但是立法院原住民立委很少所以交給原住民的民意代表從7張以上的行使同意簽"},{"start":115.54,"end":139.518,"text":"跟公平會、NCC、中選會、送到立法院行使同意權．很多啊．大法官也是、考試委員也是、監察委員也是啊．對不對．這有什麼違反憲法．沒有違反憲法．好．我們一個一個來哈．你看．你說政府委員不行．政府委員來監不行．過去的蒙藏委員會．就是由政府委員來監的．"},{"start":142.11,"end":167.401,"text":"一直到106年9月15日以前的盟戰委員會都是政務委員、委員間的那現在行政院組織法第四條這個各委員會這邊設了很多委員會第五條說行政院自政務委員7人至9人特任政務委員得兼任前條委員會之主任委員所以高金素梅提的"},{"start":168.993,"end":195.382,"text":"由政務委員來監,完全符合行政院組織法。完全符合行政院組織法。你說任期四年,不要有任期和影響,這個寫了很多理由,那個理由都不是理由啊。國家通信傳播委員會的主任委員就是四年啊。中選會的也是四年啊。公平教育委員會也是四年啊。"},{"start":196.755,"end":221.824,"text":"所以寫的時候要謹慎一點包括聯事行政總書要謹慎一點本席是老公務員也是寫法的過去很多的組織法尤其是演命會的組織法都是我在推動的好我們看為什麼要有三眼平眼過去從民國85年6月1號開始"},{"start":224.839,"end":247.589,"text":"嚴明會成立的主任委員從華嘉志、尤哈尼伊斯卡卡夫特是三眼,任期都很短了。陳建聯主委是平眼,任期比較長一點。娃麗絲貝琳是三眼。接下來從第五個一將主委,她當了九年了。"},{"start":249.031,"end":269.231,"text":"一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw"},{"start":271.376,"end":292.468,"text":"對你沒有像我以前當副局長當副主委的時候我跑遍全台灣了包括都會期了對你就做不到現在的主任委員更做不到為什麼他們也很忙了常常要來立法院我也了解了所以主委是三員還是平員絕對有差別了"},{"start":293.697,"end":303.328,"text":"）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。（二）委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。．鄭天財"},{"start":314.765,"end":342.6,"text":"滿一九十代一百零三年十二月十八號提出原住民族自治暫且條例行政院應設原住民族自治政府行政院設原住民族自治政府這是行政院會通過的他的主席由各族的委員來推及而這些委員也就是各族群來推這個是由下而上"},{"start":343.789,"end":370.774,"text":"由下而上,自主席一人,終於自治期中由委員推舉提請行政院院長聘任之。不是沒有過,院會通過了,因為人事行政總署你比較年輕,過去沒有看到這個東西,總副主委你應該有看過這個,對不對?這個送到立法院,很可惜沒有三讀通過。"},{"start":373.444,"end":400.971,"text":"所以這個部分沒有通過我理由就不講了我們後來有把它改成推動條例那這個這個族群委員啊你這邊寫的寫的那麼長理由都很好但是過去8年來都沒有這樣做了本席當了常務副主委當處長的時候都符合你寫的了但是過去8年來都沒有啊"},{"start":402.574,"end":429.58,"text":"原住民族自治,族群委員有沒有跟族委說一定要提,為什麼班也沒有提。土海法,他們要代表各族群啊,所以土海法要送啊,從原民會連送都沒有送到行政院啊。這是唯一的,所以不得不修啊。所以這個部分是這樣,因為你根本就沒有善用族群委員啊。"},{"start":431.263,"end":442.048,"text":"我也去了解過你們族群委員參加這個委員會議或是相關的這些法案沒有了每天在鄉下"},{"start":443.24,"end":468.957,"text":"每天在鄉下,因為你可能不知道啦,政府罪你不知道。各位報告,其實我們那個族群委員都有分別就各處事的一些工作,在地方做一些考察會刊,或者是參與各種會議。我都知道,我常常碰到他們吶,他們都代表主任委員參加婚喪喜慶的。都代表主任委員參加婚喪喜慶。"},{"start":470.223,"end":487.257,"text":"那是其中一項而已。這不應該的!不應該的!所以這個部分,時間的關係,這個後面還有很多的委員要提。這個我要特別講的是說,有一個案子比較急迫。"},{"start":488.211,"end":508.441,"text":"零四零三地震你回去趕快去查一下然後協調行政院趕快核定就是說嚴明會有提零四零三震災花蓮部落旅遊振興計畫總經費三千萬元到現在行政院還沒核定趕快協調可以嗎好謝謝是謝謝委員"},{"start":514.36,"end":518.31,"text":"好,謝謝鄭委員。那下一位我們請牛許廷委員進行詢問。"}]}},{"id":"154363","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154363","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c1e4be0155d7c5274da706b406df85b80e70b5822ad681b89e5986559e7e11f9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:55:22 - 11:03:20","影片長度":"00:07:58","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:55:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T11:03:20+08:00","duration":478,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":806,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時55分）謝謝主席，請鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：林委員好。"],["林委員思銘：副主委，今天針對組織法第三條、第四條修正，主要是鄭委員提出，說山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任首長，就是主委由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任。另外，由行政院長提名也要經過具原住民身分的議員、區長、鄉鎮市長審查同意。我看你剛才對很多委員答詢，你說依照憲法五十六條，各部會的首長是由行政院長提名，請總統任命，所以你不贊成。但是我要請教主委，你認為主委是不是要跟原民所有的族或者部落熟悉？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，一定要。"],["林委員思銘：而且要溝通無礙？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有必要。"],["林委員思銘：為了推行相關原住民政策或者是反映原鄉部落的需求，主委本身一定要常常去瞭解全國十六個族或者是所有原鄉，要去走訪。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["林委員思銘：在這種前提之下，如果主委純粹是由行政院長提名，然後總統任命，但是這個主委跟所有族人不熟悉的話，你認為他的政務會推行得很順暢嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當然如果不熟悉會不順暢，不過以我們這28年來的經驗，所有被任命適才適任的首長大概都跟族人熟悉。"],["林委員思銘：副主委，這是你的看法，我過去也在內政委會待過，夷將當主委的時候，我的選區新竹縣有兩個原鄉部落，你說主委真的跟他們那麼熟嗎？沒有，他跟議員並沒有像你講的什麼很熟悉。其實這一次修法有一條主要是說由山地原住民、平地原住民輪流擔任主委，這一條很公平，你贊同嗎？這一條修法你贊同嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當初分山原、平原也是因為區域的劃分……"],["林委員思銘：我說主委由他們輪流擔任，這樣的修法你贊不贊成？你的回答很簡單，贊不贊成？今天有這個修法，我看你的意見，聽一下你的意見。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這是提名跟任命權的問題，有關是不是提名山原、平原，因為目前在憲法裡面提到山原、平原大概只有立法委員選舉。"],["林委員思銘：是，副主委，你本身就是原民，你可以站在原民的立場講一下，這樣子對山原的照顧、平地原住民的照顧，可能會比較均衡、比較平衡，不會每次都是平地原住民擔任或者是山地原住民擔任，會讓所有的族人感覺怎麼會這樣？另外一個族永遠都沒有機會擔任主委嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，在會裡面有二十幾……"],["林委員思銘：用輪流的方式可能會比較恰當。另外，剛剛我也聽莊瑞雄委員講，你們不贊成由審查會同意，就是由議員、鄉鎮長、區長再做一次審查。實際上從憲法的角度，固然憲法好像有限制，但是我希望原民會跳脫一種思考邏輯。原住民自治重不重要？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：重要。"],["林委員思銘：我剛剛也跟你講了，如果他要去當主委，他的一個條件，所以你要很熟悉地方，如果你要熟悉地方，你就是要去跟具有民意基礎的這些民意代表很熟嘛！他很熟悉你，才能夠去跟你提出很多的建言。所以提名的人由他們來審查同意，我覺得這個對原民自治是非常正面的一件事情，所以主委你們可以跳脫這個思維，這是很有創意的一個設計啊！你們看如何在這個條文不違憲的情況之下，以原住民的一個特殊性讓這個條文能夠實現，我覺得有它的必要啦！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["林委員思銘：我是建議副主委，你們是不是未來在逐條審查，或者你們在行政院提供相關意見的時候，可以跳脫你們現在固有框架的思維，讓原民的發展能夠更好啦！另外我想再請問你，你去過新竹縣沒有？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，去過了。"],["林委員思銘：新竹縣我剛才講，就是有五峰還有尖石這兩個原鄉嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["林委員思銘：最近五峰鄉的觀光特色景點，你可以臚列幾個給我聽聽看嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：五峰鄉有溫泉……"],["林委員思銘：張學良故居。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：那個溫泉的開幕我有去過。"],["林委員思銘：五峰的清泉，你有去過清泉啦？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有去過清泉。"],["林委員思銘：好，張學良故居……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：張學良故居也去過兩次。"],["林委員思銘：是，還有三毛的故居嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是、是。"],["林委員思銘：我看最近新竹縣政府有向交通部觀光局申請了一筆經費，來補助這些觀光景點整個遊憩設施的改善，請問原民會這邊有沒有補助？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個案子我可能要瞭解，是不是……"],["高專門委員文斌：跟委員報告，有關交通的部分是由觀光局主管，但是現在本會針對產業的發展，包括五峰的清泉溫泉還有五峰的觀光旅遊，我們都有補助，相關的資料可以再提供給委員辦公室……"],["林委員思銘：是，可以再提供一份書面給我？"],["高專門委員文斌：沒有問題，我再提供給委員辦……"],["林委員思銘：你可以從最近這三年的好不好？我要瞭解這三年你們補助的經費大概是怎麼算的。"],["高專門委員文斌：沒有問題，五峰跟尖石都有資料。"],["林委員思銘：OK，我最後一個問題，還有我們竹東有一個「Wah！幾散竹東」，你也有去過啦？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：「Wah！幾散竹東」有去過，而且開幕我都去過。"],["林委員思銘：當時在夷將主委的時候曾去開幕剪綵嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是、是，沒有錯。"],["林委員思銘：最近我看它運作得也不錯，是全臺唯一原民的一個藝文中心？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對、是。"],["林委員思銘：就在我們竹東，也是我的家鄉，我也很光榮喔！這個目前發展得不錯，也希望原民會繼續支持這個「Wah！幾散竹東」，不管是農特產品的展銷、銷售，還有我們整個原民的文化傳承，另外在這個地方還有美食啊！我們都看得到。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["林委員思銘：還有音樂，所以這個地方我希望原民會繼續給他們支持鼓勵啦！好，以上。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，沒有問題，這是應該做的，謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","下一位請鄭天財委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.51909375,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.535968750000002,"end":9.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.46346875,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.59784375,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.16721875,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.36534375,"end":23.132843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.60534375,"end":30.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.996593750000002,"end":31.266593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.025968750000004,"end":36.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.548468750000005,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.820968750000006,"end":49.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.18346875,"end":67.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.90221875,"end":79.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.86659375,"end":104.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.33409375000001,"end":86.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.24659375,"end":119.84346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.20159375,"end":127.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.30221875000001,"end":133.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.82034375,"end":145.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.79721875,"end":149.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.76284375,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.48159375,"end":168.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.48971875,"end":171.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.88159375,"end":176.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.74596875,"end":180.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.28971875000002,"end":181.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.32346875000002,"end":186.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.43596875,"end":191.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.16971875000002,"end":195.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.81909375,"end":204.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.47159375,"end":235.04909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.33596875,"end":240.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.95534375000003,"end":241.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.73159375,"end":258.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.84284375000004,"end":270.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.08971875000003,"end":278.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.97471875,"end":280.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.79721875,"end":282.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.85596875000005,"end":289.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.65221875000003,"end":291.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.55909375000005,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.54159375,"end":303.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.55721875,"end":306.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.53971875,"end":315.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.31909375000004,"end":330.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.62909375000004,"end":341.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.74971875,"end":344.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.65221875000003,"end":346.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.26784375,"end":355.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.56221875,"end":354.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.12721875,"end":362.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.01221875000005,"end":364.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.96971875,"end":365.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.67409375,"end":368.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.75846875,"end":372.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.40784375000004,"end":372.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.83346875,"end":373.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.76159375000003,"end":373.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.86284375,"end":373.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.89659375,"end":373.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.94721875000005,"end":373.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.96409375,"end":388.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.01471875000004,"end":378.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.21471875000003,"end":393.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.03284375000004,"end":393.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.04971875,"end":393.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.70784375000005,"end":396.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.08284375000005,"end":412.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.06159375000004,"end":398.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.41096875000005,"end":403.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.35534375000003,"end":408.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.62096875000003,"end":420.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.18909375000004,"end":420.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.57284375,"end":421.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.21409375,"end":427.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.28159375,"end":421.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.04096875000005,"end":422.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.36159375000005,"end":422.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.66909375,"end":427.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.30596875000003,"end":474.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.62221875,"end":430.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.87909375000004,"end":433.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.62034375,"end":440.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.97471875,"end":441.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.66721875,"end":464.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.70846875,"end":471.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.10909375000006,"end":474.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.85971875,"end":475.09596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.09596875000005,"end":478.48784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.189,"end":10.652,"text":"我們先做會議程序的宣告稍後在牛委員許庭詢答完畢後休息5分鐘好那我們現在請林思銘委員謝謝主席請我們中副主委"},{"start":14.874,"end":30.245,"text":"副主委我想今天針對我們組織法第三條第四條的修正我想主要有關於我們政委員提出說我們商地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任首長之任命"},{"start":32.86,"end":41.914,"text":"主委由三地原住民及平地原住民輪流擔任。另外,由行政院長提名也要經過原住民身份的議員、區長及鄉鎮市長的審查同意。"},{"start":47.847,"end":61.158,"text":"那我看你的這個剛才對我們所有的很多的委員你的答詢你就講說這個依照憲法56條這各部會的首長是由行政院長提名請總統任命所以你是不贊成"},{"start":68.844,"end":82.609,"text":"主委請教你,你認為族委是不是要跟我們原民的所有的這些族或者部落要熟悉,而且要溝通無礙,一定要嗎?"},{"start":86.59,"end":91.015,"text":"主委本身一定要對我們全國的16個族或者是全國所有的原鄉地區你要常常去了解去走訪"},{"start":105.31,"end":118.889,"text":"所以在這種前提之下如果族委純粹是由行政院長來提名然後總統任命但是這個族委跟所有的族人不熟悉的話你認為他的政務會推行得很順暢嗎?"},{"start":123.36,"end":148.963,"text":"當然如果不熟悉會不順暢不過以我們這28年來的經驗所有的被任命的逝才失任的首長大概都跟主委很熟悉那個副主委這是你的看法啦我想我過去也在內政委員會待過你這樣在當主委的時候我想我的選區新竹縣有兩個原鄉部落那你說這個主委真的跟他們那麼熟嗎 沒有"},{"start":149.864,"end":156.369,"text":"主要針對這一次的修法,所以要經過不管是由這個三立原住民、平立原住民、輪流擔任主委,我想這一條這個很公平啊,這個你贊同嗎?這一條的修法。"},{"start":173.575,"end":175.216,"text":"主委有輪流來擔任你認為這樣的修法,你贊不贊成?"},{"start":189.403,"end":203.854,"text":"你回答很簡單回答,贊不贊成啊?因為今天有這個修法嘛,我看你的意見啊,聽一下你的意見因為這是提名跟任命權的問題,提名是不是三元平原,那因為目前在憲法裡面提到三元平原大概只有立法委的選舉"},{"start":204.814,"end":231.72,"text":"副主委我想這個你本身就是原民你可以站在原民的立場來講一下嘛就是說這樣子會不會比較對於不管是三民的照顧平地原住民的照顧可能會比較有均衡啦比較平衡啦不會每次都是平地原住民擔任或者是三地原住民擔任會讓所有的我們的族人啊你們的族人會感覺怎麼會這樣其他如果另外一個族永遠"},{"start":232.5,"end":257.839,"text":"主席和委員都沒有機會去擔任主委嗎?所以用輪流可能會比較恰當。另外就是說我想剛才我也聽莊瑞雄委員講說你們不贊成就是說由這個審查會來統一就是由我們的議員或者鄉鎮長區長來再做一次審查那實際上我想"},{"start":259.501,"end":278.042,"text":"當然從憲法的角度我們固然憲法是好像是有所限制但是我是希望說原民會跳脫一種思考邏輯原住民自治重不重要所以我剛剛也跟你講了說好多這個主委的一個如果他要去當主委他的一個要件"},{"start":279.208,"end":303.382,"text":"一．委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一．委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一．委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一．委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一．委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條"},{"start":308.641,"end":309.061,"text":"所以你們可以跳脫這個思維,就是說是很有創意的一個設計"},{"start":316.363,"end":341.165,"text":"你們看如何來去讓這個條文不違憲的情況之下來這個以原住民的一個特殊性讓他能夠讓這個條文能夠實踐我覺得有他的必要啦所以我是建議說副主委你們似乎在未來在主條審查或者你們在提供意見的時候在行政院提供相關意見你們可以跳脫你們現在固有框架的思維啊"},{"start":341.846,"end":342.126,"text":"李卓人議員李卓人議員"},{"start":363.049,"end":388.69,"text":"五峰有溫泉張學良故居五峰的清泉你去過清泉?有去過清泉張學良故居也去過兩次還有三毛的故居我看最近新北縣政府有向交通部公安局申請了一筆經費來補助整個我們這些觀光景點油氣設施的改善"},{"start":390.216,"end":391.117,"text":"委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文宣告"},{"start":409.019,"end":409.739,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":427.509,"end":442.166,"text":"有有,也有去過啦那當時在一將族委的時候去開幕剪裁嘛那最近我看他運作的也不錯是全台唯一你們原名的一個義文的一個中心就在我們竹東"},{"start":443.367,"end":443.527,"text":"林思銘議員"},{"start":462.754,"end":462.854,"text":"鄭天財委員"}]}},{"id":"154361","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154361","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726cb1ed212a740b5d8ada706b406df85b80e70b5822ad681b89c05c87b763aa95675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:47:51 - 10:55:19","影片長度":"00:07:28","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:47:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:55:19+08:00","duration":448,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":762,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時48分）請原民會跟人事行政總處。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：先請教副主委，你贊成原民會主委兼任政委嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個部分因為涉及到行政院人事任用法規的解釋跟適用，我們還是尊重人事總處的看法。"],["羅委員智強：我現在不是問法規，我只問你有沒有這個需要，你作為一個原民會的副主委，所以你的意思是其實無所謂？兼不兼無所謂？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：以目前我們在推動整個原民會的事務上，我們也有透過……"],["羅委員智強：我直接問你，兼任政委對你們原住民族委員會來說，在推動事務當中是不是會更有著力點一點？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["羅委員智強：是嘛！所以作為原住民族委員會的副主委，這件事情我覺得就要有你原住民族委員會的態度。現在我想請教一下人事總處，請問一下你們反對的原因是什麼？"],["李副處長靜宜：我跟委員報告，其實原本在基準法還有行政院組織法裡面所設定的這些委員會本身就是在做跨部會協調整合的功能，所以……"],["羅委員智強：你們大概的意思是說，依照中央行政機關組織基準法規定，機關首長除依性質特殊法規另有規定者外，應為專任；現行行政院組織法第四條、第五條規定，行政院有9個委員會的主委可以兼任政委，其中，國發會跟國科會因為具有跨部會整合功能，而原民會因性質比較單一，所以你們認為沒有兼任政委的必要性，對不對？"],["李副處長靜宜：就是國發會跟國科會主要是針對各機關的計畫要進行相關的一個審議跟資源分配，這個部分也是委員在修法的時候增列的。"],["羅委員智強：我現在請教一下副主委，你認同人事行政總處這個見解嗎？請從業務端來看，我先不講法規端。我這樣問好了，請問按照原住民族委員會組織法，原住民族委員會管的相關原住民工作包含哪些項目？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：包括教育、文化、社會福利、工程建設、土地、政策規劃、地方基礎建設等等，算是包羅萬象。"],["羅委員智強：的確，教育、文化、經濟、觀光、產業、土地、海域等等。我就直接說了，原住民族委員會所管的事項真的是包山包海，除了兩岸、國防、外交，但我大概想了一下，兩岸可能還有點關係，連外交可能都還有點關係，而且國防好像也有點關係喔！我要跟你講，它跨部會需要的工作恐怕是各個部會裡面最高的，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：所以我們常有一些跨部會的協商機制。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！可是他們認為你們跨部會的需求不像國科會或者是國發會那麼高啊！所以你們是非常單一的單位，你認同人事行政總處這個見解嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們還是尊重人事總處的意見。"],["羅委員智強：我是從業務端來看，他們是從法制端來看，我沒有在為難他們，所以從業務端來看你認同嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為現在在整個機制上，我們的運作都有透過這樣一個方式，包括跟教育部……"],["羅委員智強：我跟副主委講，你是原民會的副主委，你今天為了爭取原住民權益，不管是法規建置的優化，不管是福利預算的爭取，你要從我們原住民朋友的角度去看。我只講一個最簡單的事情，我就認為人事行政總處這個論點不成立，我比你還敢幫原住民講話啊！你覺得這成立嗎？談到跨部會，我還真找不出比原住民族委員會更跨部會的一個單位，有嗎？幾乎所有的東西都涉及，像原住民教育涉及哪個部會？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：教育部。"],["羅委員智強：經濟事務涉及哪個部會？環境事務涉及哪個部會？海洋事務涉及哪個部會？原住民族委員會真的是一個跨部會需求最高的單位！所以我希望人事總處能夠把這件事情納入考慮，並不是你們講的所謂它有單一性，我覺得原住民族委員會並不單一啊！它跨部會需求非常高。","我再舉個例子，請問我們的副主委，原住民族基本法在民國94年立法之後，相關子法目前工作進度如何？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：相關子法大概已經完成85%以上，現在只剩下5個法還沒有……"],["羅委員智強：原住民族自治法的進度怎麼樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：自治法目前朝著分流立法的方式，然後目前大概是針對幾個族群，像太魯閣族跟魯凱族，就這個族群的部分，希望請他們就有關自治的議題，在自己內部形成共識……"],["羅委員智強：非常好。原住民族土地及海域法進度如何？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有一些法案上次已經送到立法院了，針對我們……"],["羅委員智強：原住民族生物多樣性條例法案的進展如何？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為它的問題比較多，還必須要去做更多的討論。"],["羅委員智強：更多的跨部會討論！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是！是！是！"],["羅委員智強：你知道我要問什麼了吧？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：理解。"],["羅委員智強：這些法制修改需不需要跨部會討論？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可能有需要。"],["羅委員智強：所以為什麼今天在這邊我們立法委員會支持讓原民會主委也可以兼任政委，因為政委先天的功能上，還有我曾在政府單位工作過，政委的功能主要就是以他政務委員的身分來進行跨部會很多的協調整合工作，對不對？今天如果原民會主委也同時兼任政委的話，我剛剛講了這麼多，不管是業務端、法規端，其實你就會知道，基本上他就有一個更好的、在政府單位的一個職務基礎，為原住民朋友爭取更優化的法案，並進行跨部會的協調工作。副主委認不認同？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當然如果有機會的話，在整個跨部會協商可以……"],["羅委員智強：跟人事行政總處多溝通，好嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：好，謝謝羅委員。","下一位請林思銘委員發言。","此外，我們先做會議程序的宣告，稍後在牛委員煦庭詢答完畢後休息5分鐘。","我們現在請林思銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.2034687500000003,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.497843750000001,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.699718750000002,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.859718750000003,"end":16.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.19721875,"end":22.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.53784375,"end":26.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.96346875,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.03846875,"end":59.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.37534375,"end":37.493468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.697843750000004,"end":52.883468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.190343750000004,"end":76.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.38596875,"end":90.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.73846875000001,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.84346875,"end":121.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.13846875,"end":125.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.25596875000001,"end":134.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.87971875,"end":131.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.98034375,"end":135.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.79034375,"end":142.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.40534375000001,"end":144.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.13471875000002,"end":154.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.62284375000002,"end":154.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.87596875,"end":154.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.34409375,"end":160.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.44471875000002,"end":161.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.49096875,"end":162.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.48221875000002,"end":165.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.03471875000002,"end":168.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.82721875000001,"end":174.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.17659375000002,"end":177.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.36596875,"end":181.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.89284375000003,"end":184.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.53784375,"end":188.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.18284375000002,"end":191.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.18659375000001,"end":194.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.08909375000002,"end":198.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.63284375,"end":200.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.59034375000002,"end":205.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.02409375000002,"end":206.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.13784375,"end":211.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.74471875,"end":217.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.31346875000003,"end":219.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.96284375000002,"end":223.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.94909375,"end":229.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.34534375,"end":233.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.20534375000003,"end":235.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.43284375000002,"end":237.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.85034375,"end":246.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.98034375,"end":243.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.04784375000003,"end":243.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.50346875000002,"end":243.87471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.87471875000003,"end":244.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.65471875000003,"end":253.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.03346875000003,"end":254.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.38346875000002,"end":257.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.42096875000004,"end":259.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.86784375,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.53846875,"end":263.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.24284375,"end":270.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.31346875,"end":272.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.68034375,"end":278.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.58221875000004,"end":282.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.58159375,"end":291.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.56784375,"end":291.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.18784375,"end":294.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.22534375000004,"end":298.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.03471875,"end":304.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.70909375,"end":311.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.94846875,"end":316.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.41596875000005,"end":320.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.75721875,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.07346875,"end":322.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.91721875,"end":334.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.96596875,"end":334.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.99971875,"end":335.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.06721875,"end":335.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.32034375,"end":336.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.33721875000003,"end":337.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.02034375,"end":353.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.22471875,"end":353.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.27534375000005,"end":353.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.47784375000003,"end":353.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.64659375,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.03471875,"end":375.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.87846875,"end":355.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.94471875000005,"end":363.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.54596875000004,"end":376.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.37284375,"end":380.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.30034375,"end":383.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.90346875,"end":385.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.18159375000005,"end":388.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.18534375,"end":396.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.52596875,"end":405.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.97596875000005,"end":414.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.17284375,"end":416.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.70846875,"end":423.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.28534375000004,"end":425.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.09096875,"end":426.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.10346875000005,"end":428.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.80784375,"end":431.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.23346875000004,"end":433.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.46096875,"end":441.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.93659375000004,"end":442.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.45971875000004,"end":442.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.61534375,"end":448.55159375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.7,"end":21.806,"text":"請原民會跟人事行政總署好 請副主委各位好想先請教副主委是你贊成這個原民會的主委兼任政委嗎"},{"start":23.801,"end":51.682,"text":"這個部分我們是不是還是因為這涉及到行政人士任用法規的解釋跟適用我們還在尊重人事總署的看法我現在不是問法規我只問你有沒有這個需要你作為一個圓明會的副主委所以你的意思是其實無所謂兼不兼無所謂當然目前我們在推動整個圓明會的事務我們也有透過"},{"start":52.623,"end":76.255,"text":"我直接問你啦 兼任政委對你們原住民委員會來說的話推動事務當中是不是會更有著力一點一點是 是嘛 所以作為原住民委員會的副主委這件事情我覺得就要你原住民委員會的態度那現在我想請教一下我們人事總處請問一下反對的原因是什麼"},{"start":77.861,"end":78.682,"text":"我看了一下你們說啦,你們大概說"},{"start":93.03,"end":121.332,"text":"依照中央行政機關組織基準法嘛 對不對規定機關首長除應性質特殊法規定有規定者外應為專任嘛那現行行政院組織法第四條第五條規定行政院有九個委員會的主委可以兼任政委那其中國發會跟國科會因為具有跨部會整合功能原民會性質比較單一所以你們認為沒有兼任政委的必要性嘛 對不對"},{"start":123.604,"end":141.803,"text":"國發會跟國科會主要是針對各機關的計畫要進行相關的一個審議跟資源分配那這個部分也是委員在修法的時候增列的好那我現在請教一下我們的那個副主委你認同人事行政總署這個見解嗎你從業務端來看我不講法規端"},{"start":146.172,"end":174.235,"text":"我這樣問好了齁請問按照原住民組織法原住民你管的這個相關的原住民工作包括哪些項目包括教育文化社會福利工程建設土地社會福利非常多包括政策規劃地方基礎建設大概算是包羅萬象的確啊教育文化經濟觀光產業土地海域"},{"start":175.516,"end":193.565,"text":"幾乎阿 我直接說啦 原住民委員會所管的事項吼 真的叫包山包海啦 對不對你大概除了兩岸國防外交 兩岸都未必阿 兩岸都還有關係喔 我大概想連顧外交都還有點關係喔"},{"start":195.168,"end":222.879,"text":"我大概說國防 欸 國防好像也有點關係喔我要跟你講說他跨部會需要的工作恐怕是各個部會裡面最高的吧 是不是目前我們 所以我們常常有一些跨部會的一些協商機制對啊 可是他們認為說你們的跨部會的需求不像國科會或者是國發會那麼高啊所以你們是非常專一的單位啊 你認同人事行政總統這個見解嗎"},{"start":227.083,"end":246.671,"text":"我們還是尊重人事總署的我是從業務端啦他們從法制端我沒有要為難他們啦業務端你認同嗎因為現在在整個機制上我們運作是都有透過這樣的一個方式包括跟教育部我跟副主委講你是原民會的副主委"},{"start":247.728,"end":259.435,"text":"你今天爲了爭取原住民我們今天很多的一些不管是法規建制的優化不管是福利預算的爭取你要從原住民"},{"start":260.916,"end":281.766,"text":"我們的朋友的角度來去看我只講一個最簡單的事情嘛我就認為人事形成種族這個論點不成立阿我比你還敢幫原住民講話阿你覺得成立嗎?跨部會我還真找不出比原住民委員會更跨部會的一個單位啦有嗎?幾乎所有東西教育涉及誰?"},{"start":283.612,"end":303.767,"text":"教育設計哪個部會?原住民的教育設計哪個部會?教育文化處。對啊。我說教育設計哪個部會啊?其他部會啊?教育部。阿今天經濟事務設計哪個部會?環境事務設計哪個部會?海洋事務設計哪個部會?原住民委員會才真的是一個化部會需求最高的單位啦。"},{"start":305.001,"end":319.669,"text":"這個我也是希望我們的人事總處這件事情能夠把它納入考慮不是你們講的所謂的他的單一性我覺得原住民委員會並不單一他跨部會需求非常高我再舉個例子"},{"start":321.119,"end":336.83,"text":"請問我們的副主委是原住民族基本法在民國94年立法之後相關執法目前進度如何相關執法大概已經完成85%以上現在只剩下5個法還沒有原住民自治法進度怎麼樣"},{"start":338.553,"end":352.914,"text":"司法目前朝著分流立法的方式,那目前大概針對幾個族群,像太魯閣族跟盧凱族,有就這個族群的部分希望能夠請他們就有關自治的議題,然後再"},{"start":354.996,"end":380.137,"text":"非常好,原住民土地及海域法進度如何?已經有一些法案,上次有送到立法院,針對我們那原住民族生物多樣性條例法案進展如何?這個生物多樣性因為問題還比較多,還必須要去做更多的討論更多的跨部會討論啦是是是你知道我要問什麼了吧理解這些法制修改需不需要跨部會討論?"},{"start":383.973,"end":404.629,"text":"所以為什麼今天在這邊我們立法委員會支持說今天讓原住民主委也可以兼任政委因為政委先天的功能我在政府單位工作過啊政委的功能其實主要就是以他政委員的身份來進行跨部會的很多的協調統合工作嘛 對不對"},{"start":406.018,"end":432.945,"text":"那今天如果說我們的原住民的主委他也同時兼任政委的話我剛剛講這麼多不管是說今天業務端法規端其實你就會知道基本上他就有更好的一個我們講說在政府單位的一個職務基礎來去為原住民朋友來去爭取更優化的法案的跨部會的協調工作副主委你認不認同"},{"start":434.482,"end":434.662,"text":"羅委員林思明"}]}},{"id":"154357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154357","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c6123b2d911fdfc78da706b406df85b80b8981cfbc017771b1b33c046150ad1425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:38:10 - 10:47:40","影片長度":"00:09:30","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:38:10+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:47:40+08:00","duration":570,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":714,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時38分）謝謝。麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：副主委早安。我現在主要是要跟你談一下原住民就業的問題。其實這段時間我們看到原住民在就業方面，依據原民會在112年的一份報告，我們發現45.82%的原住民都是從事勞力密集的工作，而且他的收入其實是偏低的。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：現在我們來看，每人每月平均薪資大概是3萬4,244塊，跟其他的國人相比，其實是少了9,037塊，未滿3萬元的比例還高達三成多。所以我們從這個數據上面來看，我覺得原住民的工作權本來就有保障的必要，我想請問一下副主委，你有沒有掌握近期原住民整體的失業數據？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：關於失業的數據，我們請我們的科長來說明。"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員報告，目前失業率跟全體民眾大概相差不到0.05%左右的差距，確實就是如圖所示，112年的就況調查的失業率，原住民是3.53%，全體民眾是3.48%。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我想要請教一個問題，就是112年這個數據比……應該這麼說，失業率一年只少了0.29%，就從111跟112這樣來比的話，一年只少0.29%，這個進步的速度是不是不太好？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員說明，因為失業率的下降其實從早期98年的8%左右已經有逐年下降，近年其實都維持到不到1%，是有透過我們的強化促進原住民就業方案跟各部會的合作，來去促進原住民的就業權益，以上說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：那你們有沒有去分析一下他們找不到工作的原因大概是哪些？"],["李科長珮瑄：有些是生活圈沒有工作機會，或是就業的資訊不夠掌握，還有跟工作的技能也有關係。"],["吳委員宗憲：我有看了一份112年原住民就業狀況調查年度報告，111年的勞動力參與率跟失業率是62.75%跟3.82%，也就是說，我們從這個資料上面來看，有65.31%的人在工作中沒有遇到工作機會，當然這裡面有很多種不同細項的分別；其中有30.42%是找不到他要做的職業類別，像這個你們有沒有去稍微瞭解一下狀況是什麼？是不是專業度不夠或是什麼，有沒有去瞭解？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員說明，這除了工作技能不足之外，我們有透過職業訓練，當然也會有分原鄉跟都會，不同地區確實有不同的工作機會。以原鄉而言，本來產業發展就比較有限，所以我們會推動一些在地的觀光政策，這個部分也會加強推動。"],["吳委員宗憲：那照剛剛說的，如果有六成的失業者在找工作的過程中，他完全沒有遇到可以或適合的工作機會，我想請教一下那是不是……副主委，這個部分就問副主委，請問一下這個是不是代表有一些公司會拒絕錄取原住民？甚至連面試的機會也不給？你們有沒有研究過這方面的原因？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：關於這個部分，因為我們目前還有工作技能的問題，可能也有這個部分的考慮，不過我們現在普遍都有針對就業的宣傳跟協助，我們有就業輔導員在各鄉鎮，所以以這個數據來講，好像也偏高，我們也想去瞭解這樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想我們還是要去分析他們找不到工作的原因。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：至於會不會有一些公司對原住民本來就有歧視而拒絕去面試他，這也要麻煩你們瞭解一下。如果我們發現沒有工作的原因主要是因為技能或什麼不足的話，我想這個國家就有辦法去介入，介入一下，提供他們一些學習的機會嘛？不能讓他們總是從事高密集的勞力工作，因為那種工作經驗沒有辦法反映在他下一份工作上面的優勢，對不對？我想應該是這樣嘛，副主委？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，也謝謝委員，有關這個部分我們是不是也跟勞政單位去瞭解一下這個情況。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，就麻煩你了，要知道問題才能夠解決問題，這部分再麻煩你們。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然我知道政府有做很多，就像企業要標政府標案的時候，他會要求企業要有一定的原住民比例嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果沒有的話要繳納代金，這個政府都有在做，這我清楚。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這已經是行之多年的制度，沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我想請問一下現在企業繳納代金的狀況普不普遍？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員說明，未足額的廠商大概平均每年有500到600家左右……"],["吳委員宗憲：比例呢？"],["李科長珮瑄：關於比例這個部分，因為我們每年平均大概有兩萬多個標案，但其實超額進用原住民的廠商的比例也有上升，目前代金這個部分還是維持大概2億到3億左右。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，我認為這可能要看一下比例，到底有多少公司寧願繳代金也不用原住民，這應該是看比例，不是看金額吧？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員說明，依照工作權保障法的規定，確實100人以上的廠商要進用1名原住民，但是我剛剛有說大概平均的企業是500到600家左右。"],["吳委員宗憲：那這樣啦！我看到釋字第719的理由書有一段提到原住民的聘用是屬於國家保障原住民發展的一環，但是他能夠提供的都屬於短期或不具技術性的工作，難以增進原住民長期穩定的工作機會跟專業技能。大法官之前在釋字理由書裡面都已經提到這一段，所以要麻煩你們除了注意原住民的失業率之外，也要注意一下原住民他們所從事的工作，有沒有辦法讓他們能夠累積一些專業技術，而不單純只是勞力的付出，這一塊要麻煩你們注意一下。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們在人才的培力上也會加強這個部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有，我們立法院法制局也有提到一個報告，就是政府提供了很多臨時工作，雖然可以解決原住民的生計、燃眉之急，但是這不是一個長久的辦法，因為這反而會隱蔽了原住民的失業率，沒有辦法真實反映原住民面臨的問題。這一塊也麻煩你們在分析的時候要去區分它是一個臨時性的工作，還是一個真正可能讓原住民能夠長期去做的工作，這個部分要麻煩你們瞭解一下。","最後我想提一下，因為原住民他們在就業上其實有一個特殊的狀況，就是早進晚出，對不對？就業反而是很密集的，在15到24歲之間或55歲以上，所以，你們要去瞭解一下15到24歲他們在進行職涯規劃的時候，到底需要的是什麼？因為這個也都是你們出具的報告，就是很多原住民很年輕就開始工作，所以15到24歲這段時間出來工作的人很多……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：也有可能是家庭或經濟因素。"],["吳委員宗憲：或是55歲以上的人也很多，這樣子的話，我們是不是應該要去找出15到24歲這一段的人他們需要什麼東西，然後我們提供他們一些職涯的規劃，或者是協助他們考一些相關的證照，這是我看完你們112年年度報告之後的一個感想。","最後，原民會是不是有其他改善原住民就業狀況或是提高競爭力的配套措施？我想你們應該有這些配套措施，可不可以把相關的規劃，在兩個月內以書面提供給我，讓我拜讀一下，好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，兩個月的時間。"],["吳委員宗憲：可以嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可以。"],["吳委員宗憲：麻煩兩個月內提供給我。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：剛剛委員所講的包括15到24歲，甚至55歲以上的勞參率，我們會瞭解一下他的情況，然後希望可以配合並符合他們的需求，甚至在培力的部分也會來協助他們。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，因為這是你們112年原住民族就業狀況調查年度報告，這是你們報告裡面提出來的數據，可能要請你們分析一下這個數據的狀況是怎麼樣。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好的。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳宗憲委員。接下來我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.9590937500000001,"end":2.5453437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.582218750000003,"end":28.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.73409375,"end":11.235968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.235968750000001,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.667843750000003,"end":41.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.69534375,"end":56.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.93346875,"end":65.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.84346875,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.02909375,"end":66.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.04596875,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.97409375000001,"end":71.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.85096875,"end":72.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.91846875,"end":72.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.61034375,"end":88.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.04659375,"end":89.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.87346875,"end":93.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.54784375000001,"end":97.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.83846875,"end":111.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.70096875,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.58659375,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.85409375,"end":137.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.49034375000002,"end":146.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.72534375,"end":151.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.55159375000002,"end":153.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.45846875,"end":161.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.43596875,"end":168.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.64159375,"end":178.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.64846875,"end":186.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.05659375000002,"end":206.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.71596875,"end":214.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.42784375000002,"end":214.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.44034375,"end":226.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.08909375000002,"end":222.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.10596875000002,"end":222.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.21909375,"end":229.54784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.75034375,"end":231.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.33221875,"end":234.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.96471875,"end":235.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.47096875000003,"end":235.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.48784375000002,"end":251.48534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.87346875000003,"end":257.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.93159375,"end":262.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.01534375,"end":262.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.12909375000004,"end":272.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.56221875,"end":280.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.35846875000004,"end":282.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.78846875,"end":284.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.29034375000003,"end":284.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.57721875000004,"end":290.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.31471875,"end":292.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.14971875000003,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.02284375,"end":295.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.61346875000004,"end":295.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.63034375,"end":295.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.68096875000003,"end":295.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.78221875,"end":295.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.88346875,"end":295.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.96784375000004,"end":302.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.11034375,"end":303.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.30846875000003,"end":320.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.67096875000004,"end":306.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.59909375,"end":306.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.78034375000004,"end":307.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.99846875000003,"end":316.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.60971875,"end":321.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.82034375,"end":327.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.40159375,"end":328.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.55346875000004,"end":328.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.68846875,"end":328.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.70534375,"end":329.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.24096875000004,"end":336.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.29909375,"end":336.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.00784375,"end":352.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.30909375000005,"end":356.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.37596875,"end":359.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.09284375000004,"end":361.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.67909375000005,"end":363.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.53534375000004,"end":375.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.39846875,"end":393.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.31971875000005,"end":397.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.62284375,"end":398.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.49596875000003,"end":400.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.87971875000005,"end":411.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.52784375000005,"end":419.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.47596875000005,"end":422.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.96909375,"end":424.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.03221875,"end":428.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.40284375000005,"end":433.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.51596875,"end":438.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.71346875,"end":441.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.83534375000005,"end":446.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.54346875000005,"end":455.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.58409375,"end":460.71846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.25846875,"end":461.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.90784375000004,"end":472.07534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.27784375000005,"end":472.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.15534375000004,"end":482.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.82471875000005,"end":485.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.31784375,"end":493.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.46034375000005,"end":495.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.36721875,"end":502.45034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.64534375000005,"end":496.96596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.10846875000004,"end":512.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.32221875,"end":513.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.6215937500001,"end":518.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.6672187500001,"end":524.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.3203437500001,"end":540.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.54159375,"end":542.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.8915937500001,"end":542.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.2922187500001,"end":556.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.38909375,"end":544.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.48159375,"end":545.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.0959687500001,"end":566.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.09096875,"end":561.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.7109687500001,"end":563.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.29284375,"end":565.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.2040937500001,"end":566.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.57534375,"end":568.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.96346875,"end":568.93784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.025,"end":26.1,"text":"副主委早安我現在主要是要跟你談一下原住民就業的一個問題我們知道說其實這段時間我們看到原住民在就業方面我們依據原民會在112年的一份報告我們發現說45.82"},{"start":28.695,"end":28.715,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":55.646,"end":55.666,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":75.061,"end":82.606,"text":"事業率跟全體民眾大概相差不到0.05%左右的差距,確實就是如圖所示,112年的舊礦調查的失業率原住民是3.53%,全體民眾是3.48%我想一個問題要請教一下"},{"start":94.605,"end":114.844,"text":"一百一十二年這個數據比應該這麼說啦就是說失業率一年只少了零點二九就從一一二跟一一三一一跟一二這樣來比的話那一年只少零點二九這個進步的速度是不是不太好零點二九算是"},{"start":116.638,"end":145.478,"text":"跟委員說明因為失業率的下降呢其實從早期的98年呢8%左右已經有逐年下降那今年其實都維持到不到1%是有透過我們的強化促進原住民就業方案跟各部會的合作來去促進原住民的就業權益以上說明那你們有沒有去分析一下他們找不到工作的原因大概是哪些有些是生活圈沒有工作機會或是就業的資訊不夠掌握還有跟生活技能跟工作的技能有關係"},{"start":147.372,"end":168.18,"text":"我這邊有看了一份112年原住民就業狀況調查年度報告111年的勞動力參與率跟失業率是62.75跟3.82也就是說我們從這個資料上面來看有65.31的人他是在工作中沒有遇到工作機會"},{"start":170.101,"end":177.81,"text":"當然這裡面有很多種不同的細項的分別其中有30.42他是找不到他要做的職業類別"},{"start":180.427,"end":205.333,"text":"有沒有去稍微了解一下這個狀況是什麼?是不是專業度不夠或是什麼?有沒有了解?是,跟委員說明這除了就是有工作技能不足之外我們有透過職業訓練那當然也會有分原鄉跟都會那不同的地區確實有不同的工作機會那以原鄉而言來說本來產業發展就比較有限所以我們會有推動一些在地的觀光政策那這個部分也會加強推動"},{"start":206.792,"end":209.253,"text":"吳宗憲主委請問一下這個會不會是代表有一些公司他會拒絕"},{"start":227.142,"end":227.222,"text":"吳宗憲委員吳宗憲"},{"start":251.972,"end":271.587,"text":"所以以這個數據來講好像也偏高我們也想去了解我想說我們還是要去分析他們找不到工作的原因那當然說會不會有一些公司他本來就是對原住民有歧視而拒絕去面試他這也要麻煩你們了解一下那如果我們發現"},{"start":272.728,"end":272.748,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":296.078,"end":296.599,"text":"政府有做很多"},{"start":311.308,"end":311.828,"text":"企業繳納代金現在狀況普遍嗎?"},{"start":329.27,"end":329.29,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":353.959,"end":374.647,"text":"吳宗憲說這可能要看一下比例啦就是到底有多少公司他們只是寧願繳貸金也不用用原住民嗎這應該是看比例不是看金額吧是跟委員這邊說明依照那個工作權保障法規定確實100人以上的廠商要寄用一名的原住民但是我剛剛有說大概平均的企業是500到600家左右"},{"start":377.449,"end":396.004,"text":"四至七一九號的旅遊書有提到原住民的聘用是屬於國家保障原住民發展的一環,但能夠提供多屬於短期或不具技術性的工作,難以增進原住民長期穩定的工作機會和專業技能。"},{"start":399.537,"end":416.926,"text":"大法官之前在釋字的理由書裡面都已經曾經提到這一段所以要麻煩你們除了注意原住民的失業率之外也要注意一下原住民他們所從事的工作有沒有辦法讓他們能夠累積一些專業技術而不是單純就是勞力的付出"},{"start":418.306,"end":444.12,"text":"這塊要麻煩你們注意一下我們也對人才的賠利也會加強這個部分那還有就是說我們的立法院的法治局也有提到一個報告就是政府提供很多臨時工作雖然是可以解決原住民的生計藍莓之急但是這不是長久的那個方法嘛因為這個反而會隱蔽了原住民的失業率他沒有辦法真實的反映現在原住民面臨的問題這一塊也要麻煩你們"},{"start":446.561,"end":446.581,"text":"．吳宗憲"},{"start":464.917,"end":482.072,"text":"因為原住民他們就業其實有一個特殊的狀況就是早進晚出他就業反而是很密集在15到24歲或55歲以上所以你們要去了解一下15到24歲他們在進行職涯規劃的時候他到底需要的是什麼"},{"start":482.773,"end":483.133,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":502.978,"end":503.679,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":524.777,"end":525.117,"text":"吳宗憲委員吳宗憲"},{"start":552.225,"end":552.425,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"154355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154355","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726ca5d2631bb077c6cada706b406df85b80b8981cfbc017771b7d28ceef0bab0dca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:30:32 - 10:37:51","影片長度":"00:07:19","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:30:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:37:51+08:00","duration":439,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":680,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時30分）主席，我們請原民會鍾副主委跟人事行政總處曾永芳專委。"],["主席：副主委、專委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：許委員好。"],["主席：有副處長，要找副處長嗎？"],["許委員宇甄：好。"],["主席：那麻煩副處長。"],["許委員宇甄：副主委、副處長，兩位好。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：我先請教一下副處長，就根據行政院組織法第五條第二項規定，政務委員得兼任下設委員會之主任委員；而第四條規定，行政院設立的委員會有包含原住民委員會。因此原住民委員會的主任委員應該是可以兼任行政院的政務委員，也沒有違反行政院組織法的規定。那執政黨的原住民立委曾經主張原民會的業務橫跨了各部會，應該讓主任委員兼任政務委員，為何你們一直都沒有讓原民會的主委兼任政務委員？"],["李副處長靜宜：跟委員報告，因為依照中央行政機關組織基準法的第十八條第三項有提到，機關首長除了法律有特別的規定之外，原則上是用專任的方式來處理。原民會的業務橫跨了各部會，但因為它本身就是委員會性質，是負責整合、協調各部會的業務，所以我們還是維持讓他用委員會而且專任的方式。"],["許委員宇甄：那國發會跟國家科學及技術委員會的主委有沒有兼任政務委員？"],["李副處長靜宜：當時的考量是因為國發會跟國科會本身在相關國家施政計畫、科研計畫的審議方面有比較多資源分配的權限，所以當時國發會組織法在立法院審議的過程是由委員建議把它改為由政務委員來兼任。"],["許委員宇甄：所以只要有委員建議改為政務委員兼任也是可以，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["李副處長靜宜：我們是建議，因為現行其實已經有相關跨部會協調的功能。"],["許委員宇甄：但是事實上，它沒有真正跨部會協調功能，我為什麼提到這個？當然也是今天條文要修正的部分，主要是因為賴總統的主張是要正名平埔族，上次新任的主委也特別提到。因為平埔族正名涉及的議題非常龐大，而且所需要的預算可能也會超過幾百億，可能影響的族群也會超過一百萬人，這樣子是不是也需要跨部會去整合？包括如果追溯到平埔族血緣的話，臺灣可能有600萬人是平埔族；然後還有很多的土地要面臨重新管理；如果平埔族都比照原住民55歲退休，勞保基金的缺口也會變大，所以整個國土規劃都要重來。請問這樣子還算不算是跨部會，而且需要涉及重大計畫的審查？"],["李副處長靜宜：這個部分跟委員報告，事實上我們行政院已經有成立一個叫原住民族基本法推動會，是由行政院的院長來擔任召集人，所以關於剛剛委員提到這個重大的議題，事實上可以提到這個委員會來做相關討論跟審議。"],["許委員宇甄：我想這可能跟原住民委員會的主任委員能不能兼任政務委員應該也沒有直接的關係啦，我想今天的修法也是聽聽大家共同的意見，我們認為應該賦予……如果真的要完成賴總統的平埔族正名，光這個議題可能就需要有跨部會的功能。","另外再請教鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：原民會有一個標案是113年度補助原住民族長者裝置假牙業務的宣導文宣費，預算的經費是199萬元，為什麼會有這個宣導品？因為112年度原住民長者裝設假牙的補助總共1,936案，補助金額是3,663萬元，原民會認為從數據上來看，原住民長者申請的補助人數太少，所以要做宣傳。請問一下副主委，原住民長者的牙齒都不好嗎？要不然為什麼會認為這樣算是少？而且是因為宣傳不夠？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：其實很多老人家的牙齒的確到一定的年齡大概都會鬆動，而且吃食物進食會比較困難，所以我們希望……"],["許委員宇甄：對，但那是根據什麼樣子的理由，你認為這個是因為宣傳不夠呢？我們看一下，現在你們編列的宣導品有USB電風扇、USB LED電燈，還有補助圖像的貼紙。請問一下長者裝假牙的部分，比如假牙的補助圖像，以貼紙的話，可以張貼在66處的原住民族的家庭服務中心、22縣市政府、510處的文化健康站及全國的村里長辦公室、牙醫診所，需要裝假牙的人會去找牙醫，需要申請補助的會去找里長，家人也會上網查資訊，為什麼需要花199萬去製作USB風扇跟USB LED燈進行宣導呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，這個可能也是鼓勵的用意，因為這不是我督導的業務，所以不是那麼清楚它的細節，我會後提供資料……"],["許委員宇甄：對，因為這個部分本席也沒有反對送宣導品，但是目的是針對長者的假牙，所以你們應該是要送長者會用到的東西吧！請問有幾個長者會用USB去充電？所以這樣子的宣導品根本就沒有考慮到實用性，是浪費公帑！我在內政委員會的時候也曾經質詢過前任主委，他花了145萬要去做他個人的紀念冊，我已經覺得是非常的浪費公帑、浪費我們納稅人的錢。我記得行政院卓院長在院會也一直強調原民會的預算很吃緊，但是以這個標案來說，其實也是非常嚴重的在浪費人民的納稅錢。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["許委員宇甄：請副主任回答。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員，這個部分我們再瞭解，的確老人家很少用USB，都是年輕人比較多。"],["許委員宇甄：對啊！所以說你花了199萬元去做老人家根本不會用到的宣導品，就是浪費公帑、就是浪費納稅義務人的納稅錢。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可能也是給老人家或者是讓家裡能夠一起做這樣的宣導。"],["許委員宇甄：199萬元，既然原民會的預算是很吃緊的，我覺得每一分錢都該花在刀口上，好嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好，也謝謝委員的提醒，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請林思銘委員代理主席。"],["主席（林委員思銘代）：接下來我們請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.47221875,"end":17.766593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.374718750000003,"end":15.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.98596875,"end":18.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.01096875,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.027843750000002,"end":20.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.664718750000002,"end":21.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.11596875,"end":26.406593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.94659375,"end":29.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.32596875,"end":29.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.59909375,"end":38.860343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.98284375,"end":38.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.299093750000004,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.22596875,"end":90.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.88596875,"end":103.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.98096875,"end":109.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.97159375000001,"end":119.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.97846875,"end":130.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.86346875000001,"end":126.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.32284375,"end":135.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.70596875,"end":141.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.48971875,"end":199.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.22346875000002,"end":215.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.28846875000002,"end":236.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.47909375,"end":237.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.73221875000002,"end":271.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.52846875,"end":279.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.18971875,"end":280.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.83096875,"end":289.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.42471875,"end":292.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.07784375,"end":338.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.40409375,"end":343.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.92659375,"end":348.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.25909375000003,"end":350.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.30971875,"end":351.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.18284375,"end":364.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.10159375,"end":358.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.38721875000005,"end":400.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.17909375000005,"end":402.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.51659375,"end":402.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.73596875000004,"end":402.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.81596875,"end":405.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.75659375000004,"end":411.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.76409375000003,"end":421.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.30284375,"end":421.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.70346875,"end":421.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.77096875,"end":426.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.97284375000004,"end":433.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.80721875,"end":432.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.17846875000004,"end":435.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.45221875000004,"end":436.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.48596875000004,"end":436.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.50284375,"end":436.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.68846875,"end":436.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.89096875,"end":436.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.92471875,"end":438.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.96659375,"end":439.48971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.739,"end":23.413,"text":"主席我們請原民會中副主委跟原市行政總署曾永芳專委有副處長要找副處長嗎?麻煩副處長"},{"start":36.73,"end":53.326,"text":"副主委還有副處長我先請教一下副處長根據行政院組織法第五條第二項規定正委員得兼任下設委員會之主任委員而第四條規定行政院設立的委員會有包含原住民委員會"},{"start":54.227,"end":74.013,"text":"因此原住民委員會的主任委員應該是可以兼任行政院的政務委員也沒有違反行政院組織法的規定那執政黨的原住民立委曾經主張原民會的業務橫跨的各部會應該讓主任委員兼任政務委員為何你們一直都沒有讓原民會的主委兼任政務委員"},{"start":75.396,"end":103.514,"text":"那跟委員報告因為依照中央行政機關組織基準法的第18條第三項有提到機關首長除了他法律有特別的規定之外原則上是用專任的方式來處理所以說我們原則上因為這個原民會的業務是橫跨了各部會但因為他本身就是委員會性質是負責整合協調各部會的業務所以我們還是維持讓他用委員會而且專任的方式"},{"start":104.025,"end":130.167,"text":"那國發會跟國家科學及技術委員會的主委有沒有兼任政務委員當時的考量是因為國發會跟這個國科會他們本身在相關的國家的施政的計畫科研計畫的審議方面有比較多資源分配的權限所以當時是在國發會的組織法是在立法院審議的過程是由委員建議把它改為由政務委員來兼任的"},{"start":130.356,"end":141.612,"text":"那所以說只要有委員建議可以改為政務委員兼任也是可以的,是這樣的意思嗎?我們是建議就是說因為他現行之下其實已經有相關跨部會協調的功能了。"},{"start":142.466,"end":147.068,"text":"主要是因為賴總統有他的主張是要證明平埔族這我想上次這個主委新任的主委也特別提到"},{"start":161.494,"end":181.051,"text":"那因為平埔族的這個證明涉及的議題非常的龐大而且所需要的預算可能也會超過幾百億可能影響的族群也會超過一百萬人那這樣子是不是也需要跨部會去整合包括說如果追溯到平埔族的這個血緣的話臺灣可能有六百萬人是平埔族"},{"start":181.511,"end":181.531,"text":"）委員"},{"start":199.644,"end":221.665,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告齁因為事實上我們行政院已經有成立一個叫原住民族基本法的推動會是由行政院的院長來擔任召集人所以關於剛剛委員提到這個重大的議題事實上是可以提到這個委員會來做相關的一個討論跟審議我想這可能跟我們的原住民委員會的主任委員能不能兼任政務委員我覺得應該也沒有直接的關係啦"},{"start":222.546,"end":222.666,"text":"中副主委"},{"start":238.066,"end":249.035,"text":"原民會有一個必要案是113年度補助原住民族長者裝置假牙業務的宣導文宣費預算的經費是199萬元那為什麼會有這個宣導品是因為112年度原住民的長者裝設假牙的補助總共1936案補助金額是3666"},{"start":262.225,"end":263.826,"text":"原住民長者申請補助人數太少,所以要做宣傳。"},{"start":281,"end":291.431,"text":"其實很多老人家的牙齒的確到一定的年齡大概都會鬆動而且吃食物進食會比較困難對 那是根據什麼樣子的理由你認為說這個是因為宣傳不夠呢"},{"start":294.087,"end":294.147,"text":"主席"},{"start":313.948,"end":338.013,"text":"以貼紙的話可以張貼在66處的原住民族的家庭服務中心22縣市政府510處的文化健康站全國的村里長辦公室牙醫診所那會需要裝假牙的人會去找牙醫需要申請補助的會去找里長家人也會上網查資訊為什麼需要花199萬去製作USB風扇跟USB LED燈進行宣導呢?"},{"start":339.934,"end":363.805,"text":"各位報告,這個可能也是鼓勵的一個用意,那當然因為這個不是我督導的優勢,不是那麼清楚它的細節。因為這個部分本期也沒有反對送宣導品,但是應該要送,既然目的是針對長者的假牙,所以你們應該是要送長者會用到的東西吧。請問有幾個長者會用USB去充電?"},{"start":366.434,"end":382.002,"text":"所以這樣子的一個宣導品我覺得根本就沒有好一大使用性是浪費公帑我在內政委員會的時候我也曾經質詢過前任的這個主委他花了145萬要去做他的個人的一個紀念冊"},{"start":382.902,"end":383.262,"text":"副主委,請您回答"},{"start":406.042,"end":434.613,"text":"委員這個部分我們再來瞭解看因為的確老人家是比較很少用USB啦都是年輕人比較多所以說你花了199萬元去做老人家根本不會用到的宣導品就是浪費公帑就是浪費納稅人義務的納稅錢可能也是給老人家或者是讓家裡能夠一起做這樣的一個宣導199萬元既然原民會的預算是很吃緊的我覺得每一分錢都該花在刀口上好嗎好也謝謝委員的提醒謝謝"},{"start":436.519,"end":436.56,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154353","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154353","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726caf02175f5ee90ededa706b406df85b80b8981cfbc017771be445050a438e2b795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:19:38 - 10:30:28","影片長度":"00:10:50","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:19:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:30:28+08:00","duration":650,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":545,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時19分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員，會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請鍾副主委。"],["主席：麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好。主委你是不是中華民國人民？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是不是中華民國人民？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以根據憲法第七條，中華民國人民不分男女、宗教，種族、階級、黨派，在法律上一律平等，這意思是說，我跟你同不同種族？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們同宗但不同族啦！我們有沒有平等？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：平等。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要平等。好，所以我們根據憲法第十七條，我們都有平等參與選舉的權利，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你可不可以選總統？可以嘛！我可不可以選總統？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：四十歲以上可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛！四十歲以上，所以我們平等。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：根據憲法第十八條，我們有應考試服公職的權利，我可不可以去參加公務人員考試？你有沒有參加公務人員考試？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有"],["鍾委員佳濱：你可以當公務員，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我可不可以當公務員？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們平等嘛！好，那我請教一下，現任的總統，這次總統大選你有投票嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我也有投票嘛！不管我們有沒有投票支持同一個總統，現任的總統是我們國家的元首，代表了你、也代表了我，你同不同意？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你有沒有參與這次立委的投票？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我也參與立委投票嘛！我們選的是不同人，一定的啦，你不能投我，我也不可能投原民的立委嘛！但是不管現在的立法委員、原民的立法委員，你有沒有投票給他，他都代表你，對不對？我投票投給我，當然代表我自己啦！好，請教一下，目前大法官、考試委員、監察委員，你有沒有投票給他？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他可不可以代表你跟我？可以，因為他是由我們選出來的總統所提名的，他們是由113位立法委員所組成，即我們選出來的立委所同意任命的，所以考委、監委跟大法官，雖然我們沒有投票給他，但他都代表了你跟我，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那他有沒有平等地對待你跟我，你確定嗎？考委有沒有原住民？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：考委有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛！監委有沒有原住民？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有兩個。"],["鍾委員佳濱：原住民有幾族？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：16族。"],["鍾委員佳濱：監委有16族的原住民都有嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：考委有16族的原住民都有嗎？大法官有沒有原住民？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有原住民身分的大法官雖然由總統提名，但經全國民意基礎的立法院同意通過，他可以公平地對待不同的族群嗎？可不可以？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛！所以目前政務人員當中，大法官有沒有規定一定要有一個是原住民？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果沒有規定大法官一定要有一個原住民，這樣是否有違我們平等對待各個種族的憲法保障第七條的原則原理？有沒有？沒有嘛！為什麼？因為不管有沒有保障大法官是不是具有原住民身分，大法官既經全民選出來的總統提名，既經全民選出來的國會立法委員，有你的一票，有我的一票的委員來同意任命，他就要根據憲法第七條，公平地對待不分種族的每一個國民，是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我們來談正題，這只是很清楚的一個憲法ABC。","我們來談一下環境保育與民生利用並行，補償禁伐並鼓勵永續經營，我們來看一下。目前全國的原保地有26萬6,000公頃，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其中林業用地占了六成六，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前只有林保地會被納入禁伐區可以領取禁伐補償，是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這當中屏東縣是不是最多？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，屏東縣最多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要問這個題目。來，我們往下看。目前列為禁伐區的有9種，是不是有這些？林業用地、水保用地、水質保護區、國家公園，性質一不一樣？不一樣啊！林業用地跟國家公園是不一樣的，是不是這樣？水質保護區跟我們的水土保護區又不太一樣。好，這些區域不管是不是原保地都有可能被列為禁伐區，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是只有原保地會被列入，是不是這樣？好，往下看。所以目前公告禁伐區域只能維持原貌，有沒有其他使用的可能？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果說我保持原貌，禁伐公告之後有兩種，一種是做造林或其他用途，你們是不是根據判斷，有沒有濫墾濫伐或根據竹木覆蓋率有七成以上，就算是可以符合資格，是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：只要符合補償要件就算是有做其他的使用，符合規定也可以領取補償，是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前領取禁伐補償，不是叫你什麼都不能動，只是要你合乎規定來使用，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看。目前申請補償的面積有沒有逐年增加？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：從2.4萬公頃到去年7.2萬公頃了，到了2024年，我們估計有7.7萬，請問新核定補償的土地通常有沒有做使用？有沒有做使用？它只是禁伐而已，有沒有做其他的使用？你們有沒有去考究？這些新核定補償的原保地當中的林業用地有沒有做使用？據我所知，多數沒有做使用，它就是保持原狀，是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們目前所核發的禁伐補助絕大多數都是保持原狀，是不是？但是法律有沒有規定他們底下不可以使用？沒有嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你回答要快一點、聲音大一點！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們都是姓鍾，雖然我們不同族，我們希望我們詢答應該很順！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是！"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來請問一下，目前在屬於原保地的林地當中有A、B兩種方案，一種是農業部林保署的造林獎勵，有沒有？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們知道嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們的造林獎勵可不可以補助、可不可以使用？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛，鼓勵他使用嘛，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：鼓勵使用，對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們的禁伐補償沒有鼓勵使用嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：禁砍伐。"],["鍾委員佳濱：只有禁砍伐，但是也不禁止他使用，他必須合乎規定使用，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但現況是大部分都沒有使用。我們來想想看有沒有一個C方案，就是鼓勵其他的利用方式，既不是林保署的造林獎勵，但是又有其他除了保留原況以外的使用。那A跟B，也就是林保署的跟原民會的可以同時申請嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：不可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不可以，A或B是互斥的？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果還有一個C方案，他符合我們禁伐補助覆蓋率七成的規定，但是他做部分的使用，可不可以同時兼領？如果有個C方案？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：如果在合法使用……"],["鍾委員佳濱：合乎規定使用的方案你們同意？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你看，A方案的話，個人投入要投入很多，他個人有一定的收益、環境的收益也不錯，環境就是維持它的狀況；方案B就是禁伐補償，個人不用投入任何的利用跟開發，但是個人有一定的收益、環境也得到一些些保障，是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是如果我們加一個C方案，我們比照，他個人投入一些符合規定的開發運用，他個人可以得到收益、環境也得到很大的再利用，你覺得有沒有可能？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有可能，因為土地的利用很重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個利用叫什麼？我給你看答案，這種利用叫林下經濟。其實林下經濟可以維持現在林地的現有狀況，可是在滿足覆蓋率七成的情況之下，他可以又包括林下做一些開發利用、以利民生，目前有沒有例子？原民會有沒有這樣的例子？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你有哪些，以前我質詢過，一個叫做什麼？蜜蜂、蜂蜜，對不對？我們養蜜蜂的蜂蜜，還有高山茶，為什麼蜂蜜跟高山茶是互利的？因為有了蜂蜜，它會帶來授粉。往下看，一種叫做無螫蜂，聽過無螫蜂嗎？有沒有聽過無螫蜂？就是沒有尾針、刺的。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：無螫蜂在我們原住民的文化當中非常重要，它有非常多的應用用途，包括它的黏著、它的防水，都跟我們打獵有關。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副主委，你有沒有下去打過獵？有沒有拉過弓？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有拉過弓，沒有打過獵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有打過獵，我也跟你一樣，我們都同姓鍾。所以同樣的道理，鄒族也有這樣一種屋簷下的蜂窩來幫助家裡開墾的農園菜圃授粉。","最後關於我的訴求，現在你們是不是有一個111年到114年的原住民族的促進就業方案？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，有這個部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：除了古道遺址之外，是不是還有生態跟環境調查的維護計畫？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：培育我們原住民同胞可以在維護自然生態的環境之下，同時做一些經濟的開發利用，有沒有？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，在各鄉鎮大概有10位左右。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前成效如何？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前做自然保育是有一些對環境的改善。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對環境的改善？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要做一個結論，這個結論就是主張：請原民會會同行政院各其他主管機關，譬如像農業部，提出一個中長程的社會發展計畫，目的就是針對目前有領取禁伐補償或是符合領取禁伐補償的原保地當中的林業用地，我們鼓勵原住民朋友投入做符合規定的開發運用，你同意嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好，我們努力來研擬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嗎？有在研擬了？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們回到上面那個圖，就是那個A、B、C方案的圖。如果你們可以研議出這樣的C方案，我相信未來我們原住民的朋友、有原保地的朋友，他在既有的林業用地上，不是單純受到禁伐的限制、完全不能夠使用，只能領取政府有限的禁伐補償，我希望你們也鼓勵他投入類似林下經濟，在合乎禁伐補償的使用範圍內，做必要的、合理的經濟開發運用，你同意嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：同意，因為主委前幾天也有提到這個部分的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們已經開始著手了、已經有計畫醞釀了？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：就開始去做研擬……"],["鍾委員佳濱：在執行了？我希望未來在下年度的計畫當中看到你們提出C方案，來幫助原來領用B方案的原住民朋友，讓他們可以因為他們的投入、對生態的服務而可以領到更多的獎勵跟補助，好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。","下一位請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.020343750000002,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.46221875,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.42346875,"end":26.929718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.48659375,"end":31.722218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.90784375,"end":33.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.86534375,"end":39.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.501593750000005,"end":41.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.88096875,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.914718750000006,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.032843750000005,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.63596875,"end":43.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.80471875,"end":44.580968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.580968750000004,"end":45.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.049093750000004,"end":47.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.04471875,"end":47.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.078468750000006,"end":51.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.56721875,"end":51.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.92159375,"end":53.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.727218750000006,"end":58.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.68471875,"end":56.899718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.19909375,"end":58.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.40159375,"end":62.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.41846875,"end":58.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.24909375,"end":64.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.72971875,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.48471875,"end":67.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.91909375,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.07096875,"end":68.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.13846875,"end":69.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.26909375000001,"end":69.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.52221875000001,"end":70.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.50096875,"end":70.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.70346875,"end":71.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.49221875,"end":74.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.93909375,"end":75.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.52971875,"end":76.42409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.72784375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.37721875000001,"end":80.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.69346875000001,"end":84.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.68846875,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.17784375000001,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.30409375,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.55721875,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.61596875000001,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.77596875,"end":94.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.02034375000001,"end":96.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.09596875000001,"end":98.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.08721875,"end":100.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.21346875,"end":104.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.36909375,"end":105.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.19159375000001,"end":106.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.92971875,"end":108.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.85784375,"end":110.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.78159375000001,"end":111.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.49846875,"end":115.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.00846875,"end":117.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.86909375,"end":119.87721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.13034375000001,"end":125.73284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.95221875000001,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.11221875,"end":129.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.81659375,"end":131.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.68971875,"end":131.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.17909375000002,"end":134.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.11534375000002,"end":135.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.21221875,"end":137.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.64221875,"end":139.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.70971875,"end":139.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.65471875,"end":141.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.13971875000001,"end":141.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.81471875,"end":142.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.28284375,"end":143.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.00846875000002,"end":145.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.41721875000002,"end":148.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.38721875000002,"end":151.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.68659375000001,"end":152.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.53034375000001,"end":154.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.24721875,"end":162.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.34721875,"end":163.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.34284375000001,"end":164.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.40596875,"end":167.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.66721875000002,"end":168.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.16909375,"end":172.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.70846875,"end":174.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.46784375000001,"end":177.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.33221875,"end":179.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.08721875,"end":183.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.08659375000002,"end":185.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.33534375000002,"end":197.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.17721875,"end":203.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.76284375,"end":204.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.11721875,"end":204.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.67409375000003,"end":206.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.42909375000002,"end":211.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.16659375,"end":213.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.46159375000002,"end":216.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.26284375,"end":221.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.44784375,"end":223.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.75971875000002,"end":224.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.18159375000002,"end":226.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.03346875000003,"end":229.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.85159375,"end":230.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.37471875000003,"end":234.59346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.41659375,"end":232.92284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.01534375000003,"end":235.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.01096875000002,"end":237.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.69409375,"end":242.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.04784375000003,"end":243.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.07284375,"end":248.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.36346875,"end":251.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.22784375,"end":252.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.83534375000002,"end":256.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.37909375000004,"end":258.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.14659375,"end":261.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.93096875000003,"end":262.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.23034375000003,"end":266.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.50409375000004,"end":267.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.04784375,"end":287.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.98596875000004,"end":290.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.65221875000003,"end":294.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.19221875,"end":291.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.34784375000004,"end":296.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.45284375,"end":297.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.26284375,"end":298.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.51159375000003,"end":301.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.04284375000003,"end":302.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.07659375000003,"end":302.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.12721875,"end":302.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.36346875000004,"end":302.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.46471875000003,"end":304.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.45596875,"end":310.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.51409375000003,"end":311.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.76284375,"end":313.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.71159375,"end":316.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.72409375,"end":318.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.98534375,"end":319.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.78659375,"end":323.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.69346875,"end":324.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.11534375,"end":325.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.95471875000004,"end":328.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.38034375,"end":333.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.64971875000003,"end":338.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.57721875000004,"end":339.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.47159375,"end":341.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.35721875,"end":342.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.63971875000004,"end":344.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.19221875,"end":353.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.76471875000004,"end":355.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.68846875,"end":357.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.16909375,"end":361.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.71284375000005,"end":368.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.46721875000003,"end":367.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.22659375,"end":368.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.47971875,"end":368.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.68221875,"end":371.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.58471875000004,"end":372.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.04846875000004,"end":374.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.06534375,"end":374.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.08221875000004,"end":374.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.31846875,"end":376.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.75721875000005,"end":376.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.61346875000004,"end":377.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.23346875000004,"end":378.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.75221875,"end":381.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.35534375000003,"end":387.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.18971875,"end":398.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.07409375000003,"end":399.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.83346875,"end":400.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.99346875000003,"end":404.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.57534375,"end":405.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.99284375,"end":406.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.92096875000004,"end":407.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.15721875,"end":408.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.17409375000005,"end":407.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.84471875,"end":408.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.92909375000005,"end":408.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.96284375000005,"end":409.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.04721875,"end":410.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.08096875,"end":409.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.22409375,"end":413.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.90721875,"end":415.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.57784375,"end":417.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.26096875,"end":419.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.70784375000005,"end":422.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.47971875,"end":428.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.61471875,"end":422.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.86784375,"end":424.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.16221875,"end":430.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.93409375000005,"end":439.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.97909375,"end":441.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.08846875,"end":444.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.97409375,"end":446.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.91471875,"end":449.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.64846875,"end":449.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.34034375000005,"end":451.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.40346875,"end":453.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.76596875,"end":456.92159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.32659375000003,"end":458.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.96784375000004,"end":459.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.33471875000004,"end":462.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.09784375000004,"end":469.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.59471875,"end":474.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.70346875,"end":477.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.37409375000004,"end":477.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.77909375,"end":479.28096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.60159375,"end":480.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.35659375000006,"end":482.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.40284375000005,"end":483.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.51659375,"end":485.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.82846875,"end":486.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.85784375000003,"end":489.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.20346875,"end":490.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.14409375,"end":491.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.10596875000005,"end":494.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.78471875,"end":496.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.50596875,"end":498.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.22721875,"end":499.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.41284375000004,"end":502.02846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.07909375,"end":507.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.56346875,"end":508.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.50409375000004,"end":515.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.10221875,"end":522.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.3078437500001,"end":528.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.89346875,"end":531.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.54284375,"end":536.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.5378437500001,"end":537.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.61784375,"end":548.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.7565937500001,"end":541.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.97471875,"end":549.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.5990937500001,"end":549.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.6328437500001,"end":549.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.83534375,"end":549.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.86909375,"end":550.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.3078437500001,"end":551.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.1259687500001,"end":563.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.5378437500001,"end":565.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.01846875,"end":567.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.45284375,"end":570.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.52409375,"end":571.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.5703437500001,"end":578.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.8772187500001,"end":584.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.0365937500001,"end":592.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.10784375,"end":589.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.1028437500001,"end":606.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.2822187500001,"end":621.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.97596875,"end":622.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.0265937500001,"end":622.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.0603437500001,"end":622.0772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.0772187499999,"end":622.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.09409375,"end":622.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.2122187500001,"end":622.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.66784375,"end":622.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.70159375,"end":622.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.7690937500001,"end":622.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.7859687499999,"end":622.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.8703437500001,"end":624.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.25846875,"end":643.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.67596875,"end":624.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.05096875,"end":629.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.9978437500001,"end":644.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.3859687500001,"end":644.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.06096875,"end":646.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.6259687500001,"end":649.70159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.179,"end":32.777,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會長、觀眾夥伴、媒體記者女士先生,有請鍾副主委。鍾委好。主委好。主委,你是不是中華民國人民?是。我是不是中華民國人民?是。所以根據憲法第7條,"},{"start":33.939,"end":39.261,"text":"民國人民不分男女、宗教、種族、階級、黨派,在法律上一定平等。"},{"start":53.763,"end":54.023,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":72.775,"end":100.054,"text":"現任的總統,這次總統大選你有投票嗎?有。我也有投票嘛。那不管我沒有投票支持這個同一個總統,現任的總統是我們國家的元首,也代表了你,也代表了我,你同不同意?是。那你有沒有這次參與立委的投票?有。有,我也參與立委投票嘛。我們選的是不同人,一定的啦。你不可能投我,我也不可能投原民的立委嘛。但是不管現在的立法委員,原民的立法委員,你有沒有投票給他,他都代表你對不對?"},{"start":101.277,"end":115.143,"text":"我當然投票投給我當然代表我自己啦齁好那請教一下目前大法官考試委員監察委員你有沒有投票給他沒有那他可不可以代表你跟我"},{"start":117.073,"end":120.295,"text":"有嗎?監委有沒有原住民?有。原住民有幾族?那監委有16族的原住民都有嗎?"},{"start":150.431,"end":172.066,"text":"大法官有沒有原住民?那如果沒有原住民身份的大法官,雖然經過總統提名,全國民意基礎的立法院同意通過,他可以代表公平的對待不同的族群嗎?可不可以?所以目前政務委員當中有沒有,大法官有沒有規定一定要有一個大法官是原住民?"},{"start":173.732,"end":183.19,"text":"沒有,那如果沒有規定大法官要有一個原住民,這樣有沒有有違我們平等對待各種族的這個憲法保障第一條原則原理有沒有?沒有嘛,為什麼?"},{"start":185.424,"end":212.345,"text":"因為不管有沒有保障大法官是不是具有原住民身份大法官繼經全民選出來的總統提名繼經全民選出來的國會立法委員由你的一票或我的一票的委員來同意任命他就要根據憲法第7條公平的對待不分種族的每一個國民是不是這樣來我們來談政體這只是很清楚的一個憲法ABC我們來談一下環境保育與民生利用並行補償淨法並"},{"start":214.508,"end":243.689,"text":"鼓勵永續經營我們來看一下來目前我們全國的原保地有26萬6千公頃對不對對其中林業用地佔了6成6是不是是那目前只有林保地會被納入淨法區域可以領取淨法補償是不是這樣是這當中屏東縣是不是最多對屏東縣最多所以我要問那個定義題目好來我們往下看目前列為淨法區的有9種是不是有這些林業用地水保用地水質保護區國家公園性質也不一樣"},{"start":245.097,"end":248.861,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．第四條條文修正草案．第四條條文修正草案．"},{"start":270.097,"end":270.417,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":291.398,"end":312.622,"text":"所以目前的應許進法補償不是叫你什麼都不能動,只是要你合乎規定來使用,是不是?好,我們往下看。好,目前的申請補償面具有沒有逐年增加?有。有,從2.4萬公頃到去年到7.2萬公頃了,到了2024年我們估計有7.7萬。請問新核定補償的土地通常有沒有做使用?有沒有做使用?他只是進法而已,他有沒有做其他的使用?你們有沒有去考究?"},{"start":321.86,"end":342.566,"text":"新核定的這些補償的元寶地上的林業用地有沒有做使用?我所知道多數沒有做使用,它就是保持原狀,是不是這樣?所以你們目前所合法的禁法補助,絕大多數都是保持原狀,是不是?但是法律有沒有規定他們底下不可以使用?沒有嗎?"},{"start":343.986,"end":372.314,"text":"你講話要回答快一點聲音大一點我們都是姓鍾雖然我們不同族希望我們詢答應該很順來往下看那接下來我們請問一下現在目前我們在屬於原保地的林地當中有AB兩種方案一種是農業部林保署的造林獎勵有沒有你們知道嗎他們的造林獎勵可不可以去補助可不可以去使用"},{"start":374.053,"end":374.613,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":402.042,"end":404.985,"text":"司法及內政委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":420.674,"end":430.358,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條"},{"start":450.865,"end":474.563,"text":"開發運用,符合規定的開發運用,他個人可以得到收益,環境也得到很大的再利用,你覺得有沒有可能?這個利用叫什麼?我來給你看答案,這個利用叫零下經濟。其實零下經濟可以維持現在林地的一個現有狀況,可是在滿足覆蓋率7成的情況之下,它可以又包括零下做一些開發利用以利民生。目前有沒有例子?"},{"start":475.748,"end":493.945,"text":"原民會有沒有這樣的例子?有,來告訴你有哪些?以前我諮詢過下一頁,一個叫做什麼?就是蜜蜂,蜂蜜對不對?我們養蜜蜂的蜂蜜,有高山茶。為什麼蜂蜜跟高山茶是互利的?因為有的蜂蜜它會帶來授粉,往下看。一種叫做無遮蜂,聽過無遮蜂嗎?"},{"start":495.834,"end":522.14,"text":"有沒有聽過吳哲峰?就是沒有尾針的刺的。吳哲峰在我們原住民的文化當中非常重要。他有非常多的應用用途,包括他的黏著,包括他的防水,都跟我們打獵有關。副主委,你有沒有下去打過獵?有沒有拉過弓?有拉過弓,沒有打過獵。沒有打過獵,我也跟你一樣啦,我們都是信忠。所以呢,再往下一頁。所以呢,同樣的道理,我們鄒族也有這樣的一個屋簷下的蜂窩,來幫助他們家裡可以開墾的農…"},{"start":524.585,"end":551.731,"text":"二）委員蔡普瘦粉最後我的訴求來往上一跳來上一頁現在你們是不是有一個111年到114年的原住民族的出現就業方案有 有這個部分有沒有一個古道遺址之外還有生態跟環境調查的維護計畫 有有沒有可以培育我們的原住民同胞他可以在維護自然生態的環境之下同時做一些經濟的開發利用 有沒有 有在各鄉鎮大概有十位左右 那目前成效如何"},{"start":553.294,"end":580.334,"text":"目前自然保育是有一些對環境的改善對環境的改善所以我要一個結論這個結論就是這個主張請原民會會同行政院各其他主管機關譬如說像農業部提出一個中產層的社會發展計畫他的目的就是針對目前有領取禁法補償或是符合領取禁法補償的原保地上的林業用地我們鼓勵原住民朋友"},{"start":580.854,"end":591.9,"text":"投入做符合規定的開發運用,你同意嗎?好,我們努力來研擬。有嗎?有在研擬了喔?那我們希望說回到上面那個圖齁,就那個ABC方案的圖齁。"},{"start":593.154,"end":612.988,"text":"如果說你們可以研議出這樣的西方案我相信未來我們原住民的朋友有原保地的朋友他在既有的林業用地上不是單純的受到的經法的限制完全不能夠去使用只能說就是領取政府有限的經法補償我們希望你們也鼓勵他投入類似林下經濟當下"},{"start":614.609,"end":643.613,"text":"在合乎禁法補償的使用範圍內做必要的合理的經濟開發運用,你同意嗎?同意,因為主委前幾天也有提到這個部分的...你們已經開始著手了,已經在有計劃醞釀了就開始去做...在執行了,我希望未來在你們下年度的計劃當中看到你們有西方案的提出來幫助原來領用B方案的原住民朋友可以因為他們的投入,他們對生態的服務他們可以領得更多的獎勵跟補助,好不好?"},{"start":644.053,"end":644.455,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154349","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154349","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c997b8841e8c9330fda706b406df85b80b8981cfbc017771be027a2bf8945983e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:07:29 - 10:19:34","影片長度":"00:12:05","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:07:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:19:34+08:00","duration":725,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":499,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時7分）謝謝召委，有請原民會鍾副主委。"],["主席：麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：莊委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：早。人事行政總處只有來了副處長而已，是不是？請，謝謝。","副主委，今天其實這兩個法案裡面也不是原民會的層級可以單獨做決定，我本來以為今天人事長會來，我就針對跟原住民族有關係的部分就教。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們看到原住民族委員會組織法裡面的規範，原民會所置的委員，跟整個國發會主委與委員之間都是部長層級的又不太一樣。對於今天兩個版本，你的看法是怎麼樣？對這個議題，其實我比這個還更開放，本席一直都主張原住民族其實是可以自治的，我都這樣認為。我為什麼說我比較開放？理由就是這兩個條文裡面，我也不認為譬如又去兼任政委以後就可以做解決，你們原民會現在對這個的態度是如何？我現在聽聽副主委你的看法。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，從原民會成立以來，我們都有族群委員，我們的族群委員占了很重要的角色，我們的重要會議或委員會議、下鄉跟部落協調溝通、甚至參加任何活動，他們都是我們部落跟原民會之間很重要的橋梁。而且目前我們16位族群委員裡面有分兩梯，一個禮拜一半的人在會裡面，一半的人在各區做這樣的交流工作推動。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我在問東，你卻講到西去了。我在問你對今天委員會審查這項法案的看法。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：其實我們認為這次提案是希望無給職，但是我們還是希望能夠用聘用的方式進用，繼續負責他們的工作。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，我就提問一些你比較熟的。譬如原民會的主委由全國原住民議員或鄉鎮長做審查、來行使這樣的同意權，你的看法是如何？譬如你也可以認為從責任政治來看，或者整個人事同意權的行使方面，到底對貴會來講有沒有什麼複雜性，會有什麼窒礙難行的地方？甚至於對現狀做改變的話，有什麼窒礙難行？就是談到那個風險，我想問你真正的看法。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這28年來原民會這樣的運作還算順暢，如果現在按照這樣的提案，希望由地方的縣市、直轄市及鄉鎮市區長來審查同意，我覺得這個部分我們也不曉得要怎麼去調整，而且這是在憲法裡面明定院長提名、總統任命的權力，何況他又是政務官。"],["莊委員瑞雄：同樣的問題，是不是就教一下人事行政總處副處長？"],["李副處長靜宜：委員好。因為基於憲法第五十六條已經規定各部會的首長是由行政院院長提請總統任命，目前為止並沒有由地方的議員同意的情況，是沒有這樣的規定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不覺得他們這樣的提案也很有創意嗎？但現制上窒礙難行，這就是你的看法？"],["李副處長靜宜：應該說我們不太確定細節上面要如何操作。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，副處長請回。副主委，我倒是這樣認為，原住民族委員會、甚至很多原民的委員希望整個原民裡面有更大的自主空間，這個我們可以理解。但是我的意思是，現在的方式對於整個原住民族的自治來講，究竟是一個突破或者有助益的方向？或者以現狀來看的話，根本完全跟整個體制不合，會造成你們施政上的紊亂？你要提出自己的看法，就是比較有高度的看法。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：就這個部分，現狀的衝突是存在的，說是創意的話，因為目前如果走向自治，配套措施也要有完整的規劃，才有可能這樣進行。當一個完整的規劃還沒有辦法出現，只就這個點這樣去進行的時候，可能會遇到很多現況的困境。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是以你們這個說法，等於今天如果這個條文要進入逐條的話，你們怎麼樣去做說明呢？好，我繼續再來請教。我記得你們主委上任受訪的時候也講到，因為時間上的緊迫，他首要的任務是要去回應111年憲判字第17號相關的工作，推動平埔族的正名。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：以現在來看的話，這個政策及方向如果繼續去走的話，就變成未來除了山原及平原以外，會再多一個……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：平埔原。"],["莊委員瑞雄：平埔原住民。本席在過去質詢過前任的原民會主委、內政部部長及中選會主委，多了一個平埔族的原民以後，影響的層面非常大，我相信最大的、第一個大家想到的就是政治層面的衝擊，也就是整個選舉制度。以現在來看的話，我們憲法裡面所明定的就只有山原及平原的席次，如果多出一個平埔族原住民出來以後，按照憲法的指示，針對未來產生的衝擊、你們籌備的部分，你們現在方向是怎麼樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們現在也成立了一個工作小組，針對設專法的部分，我們也在諮詢討論，7月、8月大概會有十幾場的徵詢會議……"],["莊委員瑞雄：然後他的權益呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：權益當然會另以法律定之，在諮詢會議的時候，我們的草案有分甲版、乙版。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是，我懂你的意思，但我的意思是從政治層面、從選舉制度來看，那你怎麼辦？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：如果是說地方選舉的部分，要從地方制度法去修……"],["莊委員瑞雄：什麼？這哪是地方制度法去修？這怎麼會是地方制度法呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為如果在權利上，他們想要做一個平埔族民意代表參與選舉的話，可能這在地方制度法上去做整理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你真的以為是地方制度法？那他們怎麼選立委？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：立委的話就不一樣，因為立委在憲法明定山原、平原各三席，這是兩種不同的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以說各個原住民族不是變成又不平等了嗎？會不會有這樣的問題？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，所以這個部分可能要再多一點討論跟共識。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這不是討論跟共識，這是涉及到整個修憲的問題了。以現在來看，我的意思就是說，針對平埔族群這樣一個修法的工程，你剛剛提到的是方向跟啟動的問題，但是涉及到修憲這個部分，國民黨它本身對修憲是沒有興趣的，我的意思是說，副主委，你從原民的考量觀點來做出發的話，你該怎麼樣去保障這些即將回復原住民族身分的平埔族的權益？我談的是這個、我談的是這個！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，因為當時在釋憲裡面就提到就平埔族相關權利的保障，是要考量各民族發展的歷史脈絡跟現況來斟酌國家的資源分配，我們會用另外一個法律來訂定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：用另外一個法律來訂定？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你們都已經規劃好了？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前我們的草案裡面有分甲案、乙案來做一個討論，對我們現有的原住民跟平埔族群來做一個討論。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我就回到鄭天財鄭委員的提案，他這個提案又有創意了。他說未來行政院長提名原民會主委以後，還要經過全國具有原住民身分的議員、鄉鎮長來召開審查會才能夠同意。第一個，當然我們所擔心的，恐怕會造成責任政治的混亂。原民會是行政院轄下的一個部會，跟行政院一同對立法院負責，如果說原民會的首長還要經過全國具有原住民身分的議員、鄉鎮長同意以後才能夠任命，你認為這到底是誰對誰負責？當然，今天有人會舉例，是不是警政署長要全國警察同意才能夠任命？體育署長要全國運動員同意才能任命？不同的命題啦！但對於原住民族自治這個部分，我倒認為這樣的一個提案反而範圍、幅度還很小，不夠魄力，但我問的是會產生什麼樣的影響？我看你們好像覺得無關緊要？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個部分可能會對整個原住民族政策未來在執行上，因為主委是院長提名，總統任命，他有一定的任期跟政務官的身分，但如果又要經過地方民意代表同意，實際上，我們認為這個對於原民政策的責任會有所錯置，除非有整個配套措施。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然會有衝突啦，一定會有衝突啦！以責任政治來講的話，誰任命誰要負最終局的責任；但是如果你是地方的民代，不管是議員或者是鄉鎮長，他去認可他，也許是基於自己的政治利益，或者是地方上的一個利益，跟整個施政也許會有衝突的地方，跟原民會的職責也會有衝突的地方，甚至到最後人選都不一定可以產生，到最後受害的還是回到整個原住民的族群，這個就不公平、這個就不公平了！所以我看你們對於今天這樣一個案子，也許你都還沒有自己的看法，所以我才覺得以你的層級來看這一題，其實這個還涉及到人事總處。這個問題，其實你們要先有答案、要先想好，今天備詢的答案這樣是不行的啦！好不好？要加油啦！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝莊委員。","下一位我們請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.75159375,"end":6.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.98346875,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.08471875,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.84346875,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.547843750000002,"end":14.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.84721875,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.58534375,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.88471875,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.90159375,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.03659375,"end":18.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.137843750000002,"end":22.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.91346875,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.05659375,"end":26.204093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.777843750000002,"end":28.296593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.54971875,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.566593750000003,"end":28.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.460968750000003,"end":46.234718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.234718750000006,"end":46.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.70721875,"end":50.672843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.95971875,"end":53.541593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.67659375,"end":65.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.64096875,"end":67.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.03721875000001,"end":69.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.74159375,"end":70.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.23909375000001,"end":73.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.97284375000001,"end":78.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.38159375000001,"end":79.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.57534375,"end":81.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.65534375,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.83659375,"end":90.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.59909375000001,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.44096875000001,"end":110.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.41971875,"end":104.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.13221875,"end":108.26721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.96721875,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.18659375,"end":113.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.75159375000001,"end":118.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.64534375000001,"end":121.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.50971875,"end":124.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.80471875,"end":136.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.31284375,"end":142.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.82284375,"end":152.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.68221875,"end":152.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.69909375,"end":152.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.74971875,"end":152.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.91846875000002,"end":152.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.93534375000002,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.96909375,"end":152.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.26846875,"end":155.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.86721875,"end":165.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.96284375000002,"end":209.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.76596875,"end":216.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.97596875000002,"end":218.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.65909375,"end":221.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.92034375,"end":230.83034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.45471875,"end":236.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.60159375,"end":236.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.74909375000001,"end":241.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.18721875000003,"end":243.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.80284375000002,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.19284375,"end":263.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.78284375000004,"end":265.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.96409375,"end":266.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.87096875000003,"end":268.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.27159375,"end":269.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.94221875,"end":274.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.58721875000003,"end":277.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.21534375000005,"end":287.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.90159375,"end":298.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.54971875,"end":303.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.32534375,"end":306.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.57784375,"end":308.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.04596875000004,"end":312.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.65721875,"end":319.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.58846875,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.02284375,"end":322.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.37284375,"end":323.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.38971875000004,"end":330.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.25784375,"end":331.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.24909375000004,"end":345.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.47909375,"end":345.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.88409375000003,"end":369.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.23909375000005,"end":369.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.55971875,"end":383.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.16096875000005,"end":383.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.44784375,"end":394.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.33221875000004,"end":396.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.62721875,"end":397.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.03221875,"end":398.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.95596875,"end":404.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.67659375000005,"end":426.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.37346875000003,"end":439.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.08034375000005,"end":449.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.14221875000004,"end":449.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.96909375,"end":453.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.64346875,"end":455.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.96784375000004,"end":466.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.62034375,"end":469.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.30346875000004,"end":473.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.26909375,"end":474.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.89346875,"end":479.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.77034375000005,"end":480.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.02346875,"end":481.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.42409375000005,"end":482.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.84159375,"end":490.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.39346875,"end":489.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.69284375,"end":490.70534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.70534375000005,"end":490.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.97534375000004,"end":491.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.04284375000003,"end":491.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.07659375000003,"end":491.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.17784375,"end":491.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.22846875000005,"end":491.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.80221875,"end":494.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.03346875000005,"end":497.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.50159375000004,"end":501.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.33221875000004,"end":502.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.15909375,"end":505.36971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.36971875000006,"end":520.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.72596875,"end":522.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.4640937500001,"end":536.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.85409375,"end":538.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.4990937499999,"end":545.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.90346875,"end":555.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.3784687500001,"end":566.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.12096875,"end":559.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.5890937500001,"end":560.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.74409375,"end":570.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.54096875,"end":573.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.8484687499999,"end":618.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.49971875,"end":628.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.89471875,"end":633.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.8134687500001,"end":640.0490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.09971875,"end":641.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.4497187500001,"end":641.9053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.4622187500001,"end":644.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.8584687499999,"end":650.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.1315937500001,"end":660.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.4172187500001,"end":663.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.91909375,"end":662.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":663.9272187500001,"end":675.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.09534375,"end":668.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.93909375,"end":669.0065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":675.84096875,"end":700.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.90034375,"end":702.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.97159375,"end":714.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.5522187500001,"end":722.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.24284375,"end":724.9640937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.865,"end":6.105,"text":"莊瑞雄"},{"start":26.844,"end":39.492,"text":"謝謝我想副主委今天其實這兩個法案裡面也不是原民會的層級可以單獨來做決定我本來以為今天人事長會來"},{"start":41.033,"end":67.098,"text":"那可是我就跟我們原住民族有關係的我來就教了我們看到的是我們原住民族的一個委員會組織法裡面的一個規範原民會所制的這些委員跟整個國發會主委跟委員之間都是部長層級的這又不太一樣又不太一樣那你們對這個今天兩個版本"},{"start":68.123,"end":79.442,"text":"你的看法是怎麼樣?我對這個議題其實我比這個還更開放本席一直都主張原住民族其實他是可以自治的"},{"start":80.609,"end":102.46,"text":"我都這樣認為啊我都這樣認為啊那為什麼說我比較開放的一個理由就是說比較開放的理由就是說這兩個條文裡面啊我也不認為說把它比如說又去兼任政委以後啊就可以來做解決了那你們現在原民會你們現在對這一個態度是如何我現在要聽聽我們"},{"start":103.522,"end":103.962,"text":"委員高金素梅"},{"start":122.874,"end":136.478,"text":"現在目前我們的族群委員,現在16位裡面有分兩梯,一個禮拜一半的人在會裡面,一半人在各區,就是做這樣的一個交流的工作推動。我在問董事長,你為什麼把他說得浪費了?"},{"start":143.903,"end":144.003,"text":"主席"},{"start":156.946,"end":178.311,"text":"因為這次提案是希望無幾指但是我們認為還是希望能夠聘用的方式來禁用繼續負責他們來的工作這樣子好啦那我就提問一些你比較熟的啦我問的比較熟的啦你像比如說我們原民會的主委你認為說全國的議員原住民的一個議員或鄉鎮長來這樣做一個審查來行使這樣的一個同意權你的看法是如何"},{"start":186.593,"end":209.464,"text":"比如說你也可以認為從責任政治來看或者說整個人事同意人事權的一個行使方面到底對你們會有沒有什麼複雜或什麼自然難省的一個地方或者你們甚至於跟現狀來做一個改變的話有什麼自然難省就是談到那個風險我想真正問你的看法"},{"start":211.136,"end":236.343,"text":"以目前這樣在28年來原民會這樣的運作還算順暢那如果現在按照這樣的提案希望由地方的縣市、直轄市跟鄉鎮市區長的審查同意我覺得當然這個部分我們也不曉得要怎麼去調整而且這是在憲法裡面明定院長提名總統任命的一個權利而且他又是政務官"},{"start":237.976,"end":262.856,"text":"這個同樣的問題我是不是就教一下我們人事總署副處長這邊是委員好因為基於憲法第56條已經規定就是各部會的首長是由行政院院長提請總統任命那在目前為止是沒有這個由地方的議員再來同意這樣子的一個情況是沒有這樣的規定那你不覺得他們這樣的一個提案也很有創意嗎但限制上是很難行"},{"start":267.998,"end":276.771,"text":"這就是你的看法?應該說我們不太確定他細節上面要如何操作。好,那個副組長你請回啊。"},{"start":278.294,"end":306.652,"text":"副主委我這樣倒是這樣子認為啦原住民族我們原民會甚至我們很多原民的一個委員他希望整個原民裡面自己有更大的一個自主的一個空間這個我們可以理解啦但是我的意思就是說你以現在的這樣的一個方式對於整個原住民族的一個自治來講的話是一個突破或者說是有一個是一個有一個有注意的"},{"start":307.568,"end":307.628,"text":"主席"},{"start":332.318,"end":332.418,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":348.436,"end":352.938,"text":"我記得你們主委上任受訪的時候也講說時間上的一個緊迫他所要的一個任務是要去回應憲法第111年憲判制第17號相關的一個工作推動平補足的一個證明那以現在來看的話"},{"start":371.345,"end":371.945,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":399.008,"end":426.608,"text":"第一個大家想到的就是政治上層面的一個衝擊就是整個選舉制度那以現在來看的話我們憲法裡面所明定的就是只有三元跟平元的一個席次那你如果讓整個平埔族我們就變成說我們在多出一個平埔族的一個原住民出來以後按照憲法的一個指示那未來產生的衝擊你們籌備的部分你們現在方向是怎麼樣"},{"start":427.458,"end":454.924,"text":"我們現在也成立了一個工作小組那針對社裝法的部分我們也在諮詢討論那我們7月8月大概會有17場的一個徵詢會議然後他的權益呢那權益當然是會另一法律訂正那大概在諮詢會議的時候我們的草案有分甲板乙板不是我懂你的意思我的意思是從政治層面從選舉制度來看那你怎麼辦"},{"start":457.978,"end":458.639,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":475.054,"end":475.074,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":503.237,"end":503.257,"text":"國民黨"},{"start":522.563,"end":535.3,"text":"他本身對修憲是沒有興趣的啦那我的意思是你從那個副主委你從原民的一個考量的觀點來做一個出發的話你該怎麼樣去保障這些即將恢復原住民族身份的評普組的權益我談的是這個我談的是這個"},{"start":541.536,"end":569.644,"text":"因為當時在市縣裡面就提到就平埔族的相關權利的保障是要考量各民族發展的歷史脈絡跟現況來斟酌國家的資源分配我們會用另外一個法律來訂定另外一個法律來訂定所以你們都已經規劃好了所以目前我們的草案裡面有分假案、疑案來做一個討論來對我們現有的原住民跟平埔族群來做一個討論"},{"start":570.638,"end":597.097,"text":"我去回到我們鄭天財政委員的提案他這個提案又有創意了他說未來行政院長提名原民會主委以後還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長來召開審查會才能夠同意第一個當然我們像我們所擔心的很怕會造成責任政治的一個混亂原民會是行政院轄下的一個部會跟行政院一同對立法院負責如果說"},{"start":598.058,"end":601.839,"text":"原民會的首長還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長同意以後才能夠認命那你認為這個到底是誰對誰負責的問題當然今天有人會舉例那是不是警政署長要全國警察認命同意才能夠認命那體育署長要全國運動員同意才能認命不同的命題但對於原住民族自治這個部分我倒認為這樣的一個提案"},{"start":624.424,"end":631.209,"text":"我們提到因為這個部分可能會對整個原住民族政策未來在執行上因為主委是總統院長提名總統任命他有一定的任期跟政務官的身份但是又要經過"},{"start":652.205,"end":652.806,"text":"當然會有衝突啦 一定會有衝突啦"},{"start":664.691,"end":690.417,"text":"責任政治來講的話誰任命誰要負最終極的一個責任但是如果你是地方的民代或者不管是議員或者是鄉鎮長他所低於他去認可他也許是自己的一個政治利益或者說地方上的一個利益跟整個市政也許會有衝突的地方跟原民會的職責也會有衝突的地方甚至到最後你都人選都不一定可以做一個產生"},{"start":691.337,"end":702.675,"text":"那到處要受害的還是回到整個我們整個原住民的一個質詢這個就不公平了 這個就不公平了所以我看你們對於今天這樣的一個案子"},{"start":704.162,"end":704.182,"text":"韓國瑜"}]}},{"id":"154346","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154346","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c9edc466072ccb7e7da706b406df85b80b8981cfbc017771bd5c0bb4227e03c4a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:00:18 - 10:07:25","影片長度":"00:07:07","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T10:00:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:07:25+08:00","duration":427,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時）好，謝謝主席。我們請鍾副主委。"],["主席：麻煩副主委。"],["陳委員俊宇：副主委早。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：針對我們今天所要審查的原住民族委員會組織法，針對這個部分，第一點就教副主委，干預主委的人選有違責任政治，您認同嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為目前這種體制，在原民會成立以來，到現在都執行得很順暢，所以我們在不同政黨的情況下，我們的運作……"],["陳委員俊宇：好，其實憲法第五十六條也明文規定，行政院各部會的首長應該是由院長來提請總統任命之，基於行政一體，責任政治，行政院也要為其所屬機關的施政表現來負責。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以主委的任命，我想還是要回歸由院長來提名，應該是比較適當。您認同嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，要適才適用。"],["陳委員俊宇：第二點，對於主委要兼任政委的部分，如果是有助於院內的橫向溝通，我覺得應該還要納入一個部分，就是其他不同族群的相關委員會，包括客家委員會，還有其他的，甚至未來還有外配等等，他們所觸及的橫向溝通應該也可能跟我們今天談的有點類似。所以其實如果原民會主委要兼任政委，我覺得這個人選應該要納入剛剛我講的這個部分，這個人選應該是比較適合來兼任政委，這是第二點。","第三點，原民會16位的委員是否要給薪的部分，我認為因為在原民會的工作上，他有可能要上山下海，也要跨鄉鎮來做服務，今天如果沒有給薪，我們把他變成是無給職，會不會造成好人才難尋覓？有沒有可能？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可能會造成，而且也會變成我們跟地方溝通的重要橋梁的損失。"],["陳委員俊宇：對，應該是會有這個疑慮，所以應該還是要維持給薪的方式，我也請原民會應該要堅持。所以我想各部會在政務上的人事，應該還是要依法給行政院長用人的彈性，因為畢竟行政團隊是一體的，政策的推動也是需要經過通盤的考量來進行，這部分也請原民會積極的溝通，讓我們16族的權益都能夠被公平的兼顧。副主委，這個再麻煩你。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，我想跟副主委討論一個比較輕鬆一點的議題，針對發展原鄉的觀光，我們宜蘭縣有兩個原鄉，一個在大同，一個在南澳，之前在南澳有一個碧候溫泉，碧候溫泉現在已經成為一個熱門的旅遊景點，當時要落成啟用的時候，也是副主委您去現場參與出席的。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，我有去。"],["陳委員俊宇：現在我發現到另外一個點是在大同鄉，大同鄉有一個閒置27年的派出所，當時是思源派出所，它也被網友另外取了一個名字，叫做寂寞派出所，它已經廢棄了。在那個地方常常媒體只要報導下雪了，當民眾一窩蜂往上跑的時候，第一個觸及的點就是在這個思源埡口的地方，在那邊賞雪，也常常造成那邊的交通會非常混亂，甚至有違停的狀況。因為那邊有閒置的空間，在這裡我想建議副主委，是不是可以研究看看把那個地方活化？縣政府目前已經規劃得差不多了，只欠東風，我希望原民會是不是可以臨門一腳來幫忙一下，不只帶動地方的觀光，也讓原鄉的觀光能再次地發展？有沒有可能？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，就這個部分我們是不是再找縣政府及大同鄉公所去會勘，瞭解一下這個情況及怎麼協助他們？"],["陳委員俊宇：好，現在那個位置是在原住民的地區，依據原住民族基本法第二十一條，必須取得原住民族及部落同意或參與，才能夠在周遭進行整頓。因為思源派出所、寂寞派出所的周遭可能也都是跟一些原住民保留地、國有財產署及林務局的相關土地有關係，縣政府已經溝通得差不多了，我想今天跟副主委就教，希望能夠針對這個部分仿效之前南澳碧候溫泉的方式，在大同鄉另闢一個新的旅遊景點，來帶動我們大同鄉的觀光發展，也可以提供民眾一個更安全的賞雪景點，周遭如果經過整理之後，我相信未來那個地方會是新的亮點。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝委員，我們儘快跟縣政府、鄉公所聯絡，然後去會勘。"],["陳委員俊宇：就這個部分，副主委可不可以給我們一個期程，多久可以有一個結果給我？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：一個月內，一個月的時間，包括會勘，大概一個月之後這個報告會出來。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，看能不能在今年冬天之前把這個地方整理好，好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為現在才夏天而已，一個月內請原民會給我一份詳細的資料。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：跟縣政府溝通之後，甚至一個月內未來的計畫看能不能都整理出來。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好，可以。如果一個月內有一些規劃或想法，剛好也提出報告，剛好年底就可以因應下雪的時間。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這部分再請原民會積極辦理。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：以上，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.48409375,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.25159375,"end":20.297843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.00221875,"end":23.453468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.044093750000002,"end":33.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.37596875,"end":37.409093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.56096875,"end":42.471593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.23096875,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.39534375,"end":45.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.728468750000005,"end":74.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.17034375,"end":53.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.97034375000001,"end":64.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.07846875,"end":76.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.49159375,"end":86.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.59221875,"end":81.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.41034375000001,"end":83.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.30034375000001,"end":85.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.27909375,"end":100.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.02784375,"end":117.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.48096875,"end":135.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.26284375,"end":142.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.31659375,"end":146.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.97846875000002,"end":162.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.97596875000002,"end":165.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.70971875,"end":171.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.93659375000001,"end":178.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.05784375000002,"end":211.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.76659375000003,"end":206.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.18346875,"end":215.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.45284375000003,"end":240.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.60846875000001,"end":220.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.37846875000002,"end":234.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.56784375,"end":236.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.15784375,"end":262.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.58471875000004,"end":318.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.76471875000004,"end":272.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.24721875,"end":317.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.61409375,"end":385.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.14346875,"end":390.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.76784375,"end":389.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.43409375000005,"end":425.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.51846875,"end":390.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.56909375000004,"end":390.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.92659375000005,"end":398.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.82096875,"end":399.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.58346875,"end":406.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.91596875000005,"end":412.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.99909375000004,"end":420.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.83846875,"end":422.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.08721875000003,"end":424.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.77034375000005,"end":427.47471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":16.519,"end":17.139,"text":"中副主委"},{"start":22.225,"end":44.89,"text":"副主委早針對我們今天所要審查的這個原住民族委員會的組織法那我想說針對這個部分第一點就叫我們副主委這個干預主委的人選有違這個責任政治您認同嗎因為目前"},{"start":46.802,"end":71.534,"text":"這種體制在原民會成立以來到現在都執行得很順暢是所以我們在不同政黨的情況下我們的運作其實憲法第56條也明文規定那行政院各部會的首長應該是由院長來提請總統任命之那基於這個行政議題這個責任政治行政院也要為其所屬的這個機關施政的表現來負責所以應該這個"},{"start":74.335,"end":81.528,"text":"主委的這個任命我想還是要回歸由院長來提名,應該是比較適當,您認同嗎?是,要适才適用。"},{"start":86.783,"end":111.704,"text":"第二點就是說對於這個主委要兼任政委的部分那如果說是有助於這個我們院內的一個橫向溝通我覺得應該還要納入一個部分就是說其他的這個不同族群的這個相關的這個委員會你包括客家委員會還有其他甚至未來還有外配等等的"},{"start":112.244,"end":112.304,"text":"第三點（"},{"start":136.325,"end":165.014,"text":"我們原民會這個16位的委員是否要擠薪的部分我認為說因為在原民會的這個工作上原民會的工作上他有可能要上山下海那也要跨鄉鎮來做服務那你如果今天你如果沒有擠薪的話我們把他變成是無擠職會不會對於我們的好人才這個難尋覓有沒有可能"},{"start":165.794,"end":166.614,"text":"對,應該是會有這個疑慮,所以應該還是要維持這個己心的方式。"},{"start":179.147,"end":198.598,"text":"那我也請我們原民會應該要堅持那所以我想說這個各部會在政務上的人士應該還是要依法給行政院長用人的這個彈性因為畢竟行政團隊是一體的政策的推動也是需要經過通盤的考量來進行那這部分我也請原民會"},{"start":199.258,"end":200.099,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等16人擬具"},{"start":216.813,"end":240.068,"text":"我們宜蘭縣有兩個原鄉一個在大同一個在南澳那之前在南澳有一個壁後溫泉壁後溫泉對他壁後溫泉他現在已經成為一個熱門的旅遊景點那當時他要落成啟用的時候也是副主委您去現場是參與出席的那我現在我發現到另外一個點是在大同鄉"},{"start":241.249,"end":262.411,"text":"大同鄉有一個閒置27年的一個派出所當時他是私人派出所那也被網友把他另外取了一個這個名字叫做這個寂寞派出所他已經廢棄了那在那個地方常常我們媒體只要報導說下雪了"},{"start":263.592,"end":263.912,"text":"議員高金素梅"},{"start":287.373,"end":303.859,"text":"市政府目前已經規劃的差不多了,只欠東風,我希望說我們原民會是不是可以臨門一腳來幫忙一下,來帶動地方的觀光,也讓我們原鄉的觀光有一次的再次的發展,有沒有可能?"},{"start":304.079,"end":328.844,"text":"好 更委員報告 那這個部分是不是我們在找縣政府跟大同相公所去會刊 去了解一下這個情況 來怎麼協助他們好 因為他現在那個位置是在我們原住民的地區 是那依據這個第21條 我們這個基本法第21條必須取得原住民族及部落同意或參與才能夠在周遭進行整頓 是"},{"start":329.724,"end":357.769,"text":"那因為那個思源派出所現在吉末派出所的這個周遭他也都是一些可能跟原住民保留地或是這個國有財產署還有林務局的相關土地有關係啊啊縣政府已經溝通的差不多了是那我想說今天跟我們副主委就教希望能夠針對這個部分仿效我們之前南澳壁後溫泉的方式在大同鄉另外另辟一個新的這個旅遊新的經典啊"},{"start":358.149,"end":358.849,"text":"議員高金素梅等16人擬具"},{"start":387.202,"end":389.363,"text":"如果一個月內有一些規劃或想法然後剛好也提出報告"},{"start":416.633,"end":416.653,"text":"陳委員"}]}},{"id":"154344","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154344","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726ca6340b67484c1f09da706b406df85b80b8981cfbc017771b709bb89bbee775365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:53:23 - 10:00:13","影片長度":"00:06:50","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:53:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T10:00:13+08:00","duration":410,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":434,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（9時53分）謝謝主席，我們請副主委。"],["主席：麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：副主委好。今天修原民會組織法，我想了一下，它其實是一個非常重要的人事制度設計的完整變革。我認為只要涉及到人事制度的設計，它應該是要有一個目的所在，就是無論是希望可以更民主，或者是修正的邏輯要更符合目前臺灣的一些現狀，背後都要有其精神所在。我先請教一下，有關主委人事同意權的修正版本，是不是有涉及憲法問題？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，這涉及到憲法第五十六條，各部會的首長必須要院長提請總統任命，所以這部分就跟憲法相違背。"],["黃委員捷：是的，憲法第五十六條裡面寫得非常明確，行政院長提請總統來任命目前我們這些部會首長。其實釋字第613號也有強調，可不可以告訴我們釋字第613號裡面的重點是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好，釋字613號最主要是源於憲法第五十三條所揭示的行政一體的說法，它的意旨在使所有行政院掌理的行政事務，因為受到行政院院長的指揮監督，而得經由行政院對立法院負責的一個途徑，落實對人民負責之憲法要求，這是釋字613號的解釋。也就是首長的任命，必須經原住民議員、鄉（鎮、市、區）長的同意，恐怕跟釋字613號以及憲法第五十三條是相違背的。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝副主委的說明。其實釋字613號寫得很清楚，就是行政院長要如何的提請、任命他的部會首長，以及總統如何任命，這個都是在釋字613號裡面提到非常重要的精神。也就是今天這個版本下去，如果改成由各縣市原住民族的議員開審查會來同意，會不會跟目前憲法以及釋字613號有非常大的扞格？我相信這是等一下如果真的要進到逐條討論，第一個要先解決的問題。","再來，其實剛剛大家都有提到了，我也非常的好奇，因為原住民族共16族，其實我們原民會的用意就是要16族雨露均沾，越少數越應該要保障，這是原民會存在的精神與意義嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["黃委員捷：現在如果照這個版本下去，改成由各縣市議員他們來審查會同意，會不會反而變成人數越多的族群越容易取得代表的席次，越容易取得發言的權利？也就是最後可能會壟斷於某一些特定的族群手上，反而是他來代表所有的原住民族，會不會造成這樣的結果？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：如果以投票數還有人口這樣的分布，大概會有這樣的一個趨勢。"],["黃委員捷：是啦！這就是剛剛非常多的委員在詢問，你們統計了全臺灣，你剛剛說多少人？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：101位。"],["黃委員捷：總共101人，如果未來原民會的主委是要由這101人決定，請問這101人裡面，族裔的比例是多少，這個就變得非常重要，對吧？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["黃委員捷：你可不可以告訴我目前前三大的人數比例大概是多少？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：像阿美族大概20萬出頭，排灣族10萬出頭，泰雅族也是10萬左右，這是前三大的人口數。"],["黃委員捷：是的，照這個人口數選出來的代表，這些代表在審查會裡面的席次，最後再選出主委，所以可想而知，最後這個主委的族裔大概會是哪幾族？也就是你剛剛提到的。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：阿美族、排灣族、泰雅族。"],["黃委員捷：是的，這就是我們擔心的。所以剛剛有這麼多委員在講，我們要重新調整這個人事制度，可以來討論、可以檢討都沒有問題，但是第一個，不可以跟憲法的精神相違背；第二個，不能越改越不公平，越改越不民主，越改越沒有照顧到少數的族群，這是我擔心的。所以如果接下來，我們要進行任何人事的討論，都應該要在這樣的原則跟精神之下。所以剛剛其實大家最擔心的就是，如果我們現在照這個模式，變成地方的議員可以來決定中央的部會首長，哇！那麼接下來所有的部會首長絕對會變成……就像是不是全臺灣的所有校長一起來決定我們教育部長是誰？然後例如全臺灣的地方首長、區長一起來決定我們內政部長是誰，會不會變成是這樣？那麼他要負責的對象是誰，其實會變得越來越不明確，這個是我們真的會擔心的。","最後，我再請教一個問題，剛剛有提到一個版本，裡面是可以保障政務官的任期代表4年？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，裡面條文有這樣的修正。"],["黃委員捷：副主委，您認同嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前政務官應該隨時都有退場的準備。"],["黃委員捷：這個就是政務官的基本責任，您也知道嘛！作為政務官，他就是自己要有責任政治的心理準備！他坐在這個位子上就是要來負責任，他不可以說就算他做得再爛，他都有4年的任期保障，這樣對人民公平嗎？這樣他有辦法對他的工作好好負責嗎？對不對？這個條文修下去，真的是問題非常大，所以我也希望大家等一下在逐條討論的時候，真的要審慎，這條文修下去的意義為何，真的有對我們人民比較好，對臺灣的民主更好嗎？所以我今天在這邊提出以上的疑問，也希望我們原民會要做好充足的準備，提出一個更公平的制度來應對，好嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員。","接下來我們請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.87784375,"end":7.9790937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.814093750000001,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.67034375,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.028468750000002,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.12534375,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.540343750000005,"end":70.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.46284375,"end":89.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.77221875000001,"end":97.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.19284375000001,"end":103.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.31846875000001,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.13909375,"end":124.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.19284375000001,"end":129.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.31034375000002,"end":182.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.29784375,"end":209.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.95596875,"end":214.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.11971875,"end":222.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.40971875000002,"end":223.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.64159375000003,"end":242.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.96346875,"end":245.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.06846875000002,"end":256.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.69971875,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.02596875,"end":278.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.48971875,"end":292.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.51909375,"end":278.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.39034375,"end":335.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.80971875,"end":350.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.92534375,"end":353.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.46096875,"end":354.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.04721875,"end":358.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.02534375000005,"end":361.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.69596875,"end":365.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.99909375000004,"end":382.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.36346875000004,"end":408.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.26284375,"end":406.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.87034375,"end":406.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.04721875,"end":409.45221875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.109,"end":11.429,"text":"副主委"},{"start":17.185,"end":44.054,"text":"好副主委好今天其實修這個原民會的組織法我想了一下他其實是一個非常重要的人事制度設計的完整的變革那我認為說這個只要涉及到人事制度的設計他應該是要有一個目的所在就是無論是他希望可以更民主或者說他的這個修正的邏輯是要符合更符合目前台灣的一些現狀的"},{"start":45.274,"end":70.327,"text":"這其實背後都要有他的精神所在那我想當然還是先請教一下啦因為現在這個他們決定說這個主委的人事同意權要修正的版本是不是有涉及憲法的問題是 這涉及到憲法第56條各部份的首長必須要院長提請總統任命所以這個部份就跟憲法相違背"},{"start":71.542,"end":87.075,"text":"是的,那當然在這個憲法56條裡面寫得非常明確嘛新政院長提請總統來任命目前我們的這些部會首長那其實誓字613號是不是也有強調可不可以告訴我們誓字613號裡面的重點是什麼"},{"start":89.804,"end":116.602,"text":"好,四字六一三號最主要是源於憲法第五十三條所揭示的行政一體這樣的一個說法。它的意思在使所有的行政院的長理行政事務因為受到行政院院長的指揮監督,而得經由行政院對立法院負責的一個途徑,所以落實對人民負責憲法的要求。這是四字憲至六一三號的解釋,也就是說"},{"start":118.383,"end":125.994,"text":"所長的任命必須經原住民議員鄉鎮市長這樣的一個同意,恐怕跟4至613號還有憲法53條是相違背的。"},{"start":129.366,"end":150.531,"text":"好 謝謝副主委的說明其實這個是字613號寫得很清楚啦就是行政院長他要來如何的提請然後認命他的部會首長總統如何認命這個都是這個在字613號裡面提到非常重要的精神也就是說今天這個版本下去如果改成各縣市的原住民族的議員來開一個審查會同意"},{"start":154.612,"end":181.855,"text":"會不會跟目前這個憲法跟4613有非常大的漢格我相信這個是等一下如果真的要進到主條討論第一個要先解決的問題啦那再來其實剛剛大家都有提到了這個我也非常的好奇喔因為其實在原住民族共16組裡面我們原民會的用意就是要16組與陸軍沾越少數越應該要保障它這個是原民會存在的精神與意義嗎是"},{"start":182.876,"end":208.938,"text":"那現在如果照這個版本下去改成由各縣市議員他們來審查會同意會不會反而變成說你人數越多的族群越容易取得這個代表的席次越容易取得這個發言的權利也就是說最後可能會壟斷於某一些特定的族群手上反而是他來代表所有的原住民族會不會造成這樣的結果"},{"start":209.98,"end":213.69,"text":"如果以投票數還有人口這樣的分布,大家會有這樣的一個趨勢?"},{"start":215.228,"end":241.951,"text":"是啦 這個就是剛剛非常多的委員在詢問說現在你們統計全台灣的你剛剛說多少人101位總共101人如果未來我們的圓明會的主委是要由這101人來決定那請問這101人裡面的族裔的比例是多少這個就變得非常重要對吧是那你可不可以告訴我那目前至少前面前三大"},{"start":243.252,"end":249.098,"text":"人數的比例大概是多少?像阿美族大概20萬出頭那排灣族10萬出頭"},{"start":253.12,"end":254.161,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":276.241,"end":281.464,"text":"這是我們擔心的所以剛剛有這麼多委員在講就是說我們要重新調整這個人事制度可以來討論可以檢討都沒有問題但第一個不可以跟憲法的精神相違背"},{"start":290.45,"end":314.168,"text":"二、越改越不公平越改越不民主越改越沒有照顧到少數的族群這個是我擔心的所以如果接下來我們要進行任何的人事的討論都應該要在這樣的原則跟精神之下所以剛剛其實大家最擔心的就是說好如果我們現在照這個模式"},{"start":315.889,"end":323.054,"text":"國際委員可以來決定中央的部會首長哇 那接下來所有的部會首長絕對會變成說像是說是不是全台灣的所有校長一起來決定我們教育部長是誰然後例如說全台灣的地方首長區長一起來決定我們內政部長是誰那會不會變成是這樣那他要"},{"start":336.562,"end":350.65,"text":"護責的對象是誰其實會變得越來越不明確這個是我們真的會擔心那最後我再請教一個剛剛有提到說啊說有一個版本裡面是說可以保障政務官的任期代表4年是 裡面條文有這樣的信息副主委您認同嗎目前的政務官應該隨時都有"},{"start":362.086,"end":381.271,"text":"這就是政務官的基本的責任嘛。您也知道嘛。作為政務官他就是要有自己有責任政治的心理準備。他坐在這個位置上就是要來負責任。他不可以說就算我做的再爛我都有四年的任期保障。這樣對人民公平嗎?那這樣他有辦法對他的工作好好負責嗎?對不對?"},{"start":383.471,"end":405.806,"text":"所以這個條文修下去真的是問題非常大所以我也希望大家等一下在逐條討論的時候真的要審慎這些條文修下去的意義為何真的有對我們人民比較好對台灣的民主更好嗎所以我是今天在這邊提出以上的疑問也希望我們原民會要做好充足的準備提出一個更公平的制度來應對好嗎是謝謝好以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154342","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154342","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726ca042072a1cf76a92da706b406df85b801377aa0ad8b68879ef8a19ad8d4174405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:47:03 - 09:53:18","影片長度":"00:06:15","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:47:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:53:18+08:00","duration":375,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（9時47分）謝謝，我們請副主委。"],["主席：麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：宏陸委員講的就是如果這個修法通過後的接續問題，我們先請教副主委，主委是誰任命？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：院長提請總統任命。"],["李委員柏毅：對。臺灣目前的政治體制，是由總統任命行政院長，由行政院長組閣，再組成各部會包含原委會在內。原住民委員會裡面當然是委員制，但其他部會，包含工程會是委員制，國發會是委員制等等。如果再加入一個任命之後，要經過100個由六都以及縣市政府的議員以及民選區長行使同意權的話，再加上任期制，第一個，對於行政院長任命的這一個權力，它就加上了一個同意權。目前臺灣的憲政體制對於行政院長也沒有同意權，所以對於原委會的主委加上同意權，這個對於憲政體制是非常奇怪的地方。加上剛剛講的，你再回答我一次，這100個可能要行使同意權的這一些代表們，有沒有代表到目前16族所有的聲音，有沒有？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：應該沒有辦法完全代表。"],["李委員柏毅：沒有辦法完全嘛！所以行政院長任命的原委會主委，他的責任、他的使命，他必須要照顧到所有原民朋友的權益，也就是說16族的權益他都必須要照顧到，而且他必須負政治責任，不是有任期保障的，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["李委員柏毅：所以你立場要堅定啊！剛剛宏陸委員問你那麼多次，你回答不出來，基於對於16族所有族人權益的保障，立場要堅定啊！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["李委員柏毅：你相不相信你的主委會照顧到所有16族的族人？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：相信，目前。"],["李委員柏毅：對嘛！如果經由這100位代表來行使同意權的話，不出所料……你回答不出來有哪一族現在沒有代表，那你回答得出來哪兩族代表會最多嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：人口數最多的，大概代表會比較多。"],["李委員柏毅：人口數最多？來，我請教你一下，現在人口數最多的兩個族？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：應該是阿美族、排灣族、泰雅族，前三名。"],["李委員柏毅：好，前三名阿美、排灣、泰雅。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["李委員柏毅：所以代表有可能喔！你對這100個是不敢回答出來還是怎樣？趕快查出來跟委員會報告，到底這三族占100個的比例有多少？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["李委員柏毅：會不會這一個同意權，以後會造成其他15族以上的族人權益可能不被重視？這個是我們必須要先提出來的問題。另外一個是政委的問題，我想其實所有的部會在行政院裡面都一樣大，所以我相信原委會所提出來對於原住民族朋友的權益，在行政院會裡面要做相關討論的話，沒有說原民會比較小。你自己有參加過行政院會，舉手會舉不起來嗎？所以這兩個修法是兩套不一樣的邏輯，一個同意權，另外一個政委。政委其實就是某一個總統候選人他在競選總統的時候講說，原住民的主委以後要兼任政委，他不懂嘛！至於同意權是另外一個要凌駕目前臺灣憲政體制制度，甚至比內閣制還要大。內閣制要擔任部會首長，要先選上委員，這一個同意權它是比部會還要大，萬一如同剛剛講的，如果這一個主委下台了，請問下一個主委誰提名？是要來問這100位代表會不會同意這個人選？還是行政院長來提名這100位，再加上他不同意的這個邏輯？我覺得這個政治體制必須要很嚴肅的來討論。第三個，目前有多少委員？原民會有多少委員？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前族群委員16位。"],["李委員柏毅：16族都有是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，每一族代表。"],["李委員柏毅：所以族群委員16位裡面都有聘任的關係？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["李委員柏毅：所以有支薪？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["李委員柏毅：那如果沒有支薪的話，這16個執行委員是不是會有什麼樣的問題？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們認為他們是我們最重要的部落跟原民會之間重要的溝通橋梁，而且他們也分派很多各種不同的任務，所以如果沒有他們的話，我們很多業務的推動其實也比較困難。"],["李委員柏毅：而且這16個有支薪委員，在我們部落裡面會更可以代表原民會來溝通相關原民的這些相關權益。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["李委員柏毅：所以這一條我們也主張這些必須要保留，那也請原民會這邊立場堅定。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝委員。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員。","下一位我們請黃捷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.40096875,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.869093750000001,"end":10.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.20596875,"end":16.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.58096875,"end":18.239093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.15034375,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.508468750000002,"end":25.664093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.305343750000002,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.55409375,"end":28.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.27534375,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.11909375,"end":32.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.274718750000005,"end":33.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.118468750000005,"end":40.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.03721875,"end":53.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.368468750000005,"end":55.532843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.02221875,"end":57.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.72221875,"end":61.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.77659375,"end":64.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.09659375000001,"end":72.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.61034375,"end":74.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.12471875,"end":75.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.00221875000001,"end":81.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.27971875,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.75159375000001,"end":87.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.28721875000001,"end":94.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.58971875,"end":97.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.22659375,"end":99.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.72409375000001,"end":101.92221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.90096875,"end":106.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.37284375,"end":110.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.86596875000001,"end":114.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.69221875000001,"end":117.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.13909375,"end":129.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.15409375000002,"end":134.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.22096875,"end":134.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.81159375000001,"end":136.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.68471875,"end":139.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.66721875000002,"end":145.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.76346875000002,"end":151.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.53034375000001,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.35721875000002,"end":154.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.34846875000002,"end":156.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.55909375000002,"end":161.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.16596875000002,"end":163.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.29221875000002,"end":167.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.02159375000002,"end":169.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.55721875,"end":171.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.52721875,"end":186.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.95284375,"end":176.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.14659375000002,"end":178.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.41096875000002,"end":189.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.92534375000002,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.47346875000002,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.62096875,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.48971875,"end":198.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.88596875000002,"end":199.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.28659375,"end":203.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.28596875000002,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.41221875000002,"end":210.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.18784375,"end":211.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.60534375,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.21596875,"end":238.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.39096875,"end":234.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.70659375000002,"end":240.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.17909375000002,"end":243.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.67221875,"end":246.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.31721875000002,"end":249.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.27034375000002,"end":254.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.55659375000002,"end":256.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.76721875000004,"end":257.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.64034375,"end":266.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.49971875,"end":269.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.94221875,"end":271.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.97159375,"end":273.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.97971875,"end":277.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.55284375,"end":279.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.33721875000003,"end":287.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.61471875,"end":288.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.67346875000004,"end":290.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.78721875,"end":291.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.45784375,"end":296.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.79471875,"end":297.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.94221875,"end":298.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.87034375,"end":300.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.79409375,"end":303.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.15221875000003,"end":309.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.53096875,"end":316.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.21346875,"end":319.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.93034375,"end":319.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.96409375,"end":320.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.21721875000003,"end":320.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.26784375,"end":321.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.58409375,"end":324.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.61784375,"end":324.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.92534375,"end":329.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.70096875,"end":332.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.30846875000003,"end":338.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.96534375000005,"end":341.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.69909375000003,"end":346.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.98096875000005,"end":347.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.26346875,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.03096875,"end":351.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.82409375000003,"end":370.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.89846875,"end":362.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.04159375,"end":364.17659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.76221875000005,"end":370.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.76159375000003,"end":373.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.96409375,"end":374.97659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.424,"end":9.184,"text":"主委是誰任命的?院長提請總統任命對"},{"start":33.322,"end":57.085,"text":"那台灣目前的這個政治體制他是由總統任命行政院長由行政院長組閣那在組成各部會包含原委會那原住民委員會裡面當然是委員制那也包含其他部會裡面包含有工程會是委員制國發會是委員制等等那如果再加入一個"},{"start":58.789,"end":80.603,"text":"任命之後要經過100個由六都以及縣市政府的議員以及民選區長行使同意權的話,再加上任期制。第一個,對於行政院長任命的這個權利,他就加上了一個同意權。"},{"start":82.332,"end":101.312,"text":"那這個行政院長現在目前台灣的憲政體制對於院長也沒有同意權那你對於原委會的主委加上同意權這個是對於憲政體制非常奇怪的地方加上剛剛講的你再回答我一次這一百個"},{"start":102.932,"end":103.894,"text":"應該沒有辦法完全答應。"},{"start":115.888,"end":144.811,"text":"所以行政院長任命的委員會主委他的責任他的使命他必須要照顧到所有原民朋友的權益也就是說16族的權益他都必須要照顧到而且他必須負政治責任不是有任期保障的是不是所以你立場要堅定啊剛剛洪路遠問你那麼多次你回答不出來基於對於16族所有族人的權益的保障"},{"start":145.816,"end":171.079,"text":"立場要堅定阿你相不相信你的族委會照顧到所有族人16族相信目前對嘛如果經由這一百位代表來行使同意權的話不出所料齁你回答不出來有哪一族現在沒有代表那你回答得出來哪兩族代表會最多嗎"},{"start":172.811,"end":196.304,"text":"人口數最多的大概代表會比較多人口數最多來我請教你一下現在人口數最多的阿美族、排灣族、泰雅族前三名阿美、排灣、泰雅那所以代表有可能喔你是一百個是不敢回答出來還是怎樣趕快查出來跟委員會報告到底這三族佔的一百個比例有多少會不會這個同意權以後"},{"start":200.502,"end":209.656,"text":"會造成其他15族以上的族人權益可能不被重視。這個是我們必須要先提出來的問題。"},{"start":212.657,"end":237.278,"text":"另外一個政委的問題我想其實所有的部會那在行政院裡面大家買的大啦一樣大那所以說我相信原住民族委員會所提出來對於原住民族的朋友的權益在行政院會裡面要做相關的這些討論的話沒有說原民會比較小你自己在行政院會有參加過舉手會舉不起來嗎?"},{"start":239.758,"end":257.553,"text":"所以這兩個修法是兩套不一樣的邏輯一個同意權另外一個政委政委其實就是某一個總統候選人他在競選總統的時候講說這個原住民的主委以後要兼任政委他不懂嘛"},{"start":258.7,"end":276.014,"text":"但是這一個同意權是另外一個要凌駕目前台灣的政治憲政體制的一個制度他甚至比內閣制還要大喔內閣制你要擔任這個部會你先選上委員這一個同意權他是"},{"start":281.36,"end":306.599,"text":"比部會還要大萬一如同剛剛講的如果這一個組委下台了請問下一個組委誰提名是要來問這一百位代表會不會同意這個人選還是說行政院長來提名這一百位再加上他不同意的這個邏輯我覺得這個政治體制必須要很嚴肅的來討論第二個第三個"},{"start":310.598,"end":315.758,"text":"目前有多少委員?原民會有多少委員?目前"},{"start":317.73,"end":346.2,"text":"祖群委員16位祖群委員祖群委員16位16組都有是不是所以祖群委員16位裡面都有聘任的關係對對對所以有諮詢那如果沒有諮詢的話這16個執行委員是不是會造成有什麼樣的問題我們認為他們是我們最重要的部落跟園民會之間重要的溝通橋樑而且他們也分派很多各種不同的任務"},{"start":347.06,"end":347.18,"text":"二）委員"}]}},{"id":"154340","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154340","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c9e7adaa18febf32ada706b406df85b801377aa0ad8b68879f9d55d8724b67ac15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:39:56 - 09:46:56","影片長度":"00:07:00","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:39:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:46:56+08:00","duration":420,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時40分）請副主委。"],["主席：麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：副主委，原民會主委算不算政務官？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：算。"],["張委員宏陸：算？主委算不算政務官？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：主委是政務官。"],["張委員宏陸：政務官嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["張委員宏陸：如果以今天的修法，他有任期的保障，你認為合理嗎？政務官有任期的保障。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前來講，政務官應該是……"],["張委員宏陸：你回答我。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：應該沒有任期的保障。"],["張委員宏陸：政務官不應該有任期的保障。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，目前是沒有。"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！如果今天的修法，政務官──原民會主委變成有任期的保障，你支持嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我覺得這個部分因為比較沒有這樣的規定，一般政務官是隨著同進退的……"],["張委員宏陸：什麼同進退？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：隨著政策可能都有……"],["張委員宏陸：沒有，你做不好可能就隨時要負政治責任，哪有什麼同進退的？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，隨時要負政治責任下台。"],["張委員宏陸：所以政務官不應該有任期保障吧！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛，如果政務官做得不好，本來就是隨時要有走人的準備啊！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["張委員宏陸：你如果對我們原住民做得不好，所有原住民都認為他不好，反而有任期保障之後，那怎麼辦？那怎麼辦？他就在那邊4年什麼事都不用做也可以過4年，會不會變這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有可能。"],["張委員宏陸：他是掌管全國、全臺灣原住民的事務欸！再來，我要請教一下今天的修法內容，他還要縣市議會的議員、鄉鎮市長、區長同意，你認為合理嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個部分因為行政院應該要對立法院負責，它是行政一體，所以這個部分的首長應該是院長提請總統任命，因此這個部分還要經過縣市議員是比較特別，這樣的說法滿奇怪的。"],["張委員宏陸：你認為合理嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前沒有這樣的規定。"],["張委員宏陸：當然沒有這樣的規定，你認為合理嗎？你認為合理嗎？你來這邊備詢，不應該只有笑，你認為合理嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當然就目前來講，我覺得是因為沒有這樣的制度……"],["張委員宏陸：我問你合不合理？合不合理？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：不合理。"],["張委員宏陸：我要告訴你不合理的地方在哪裡。副主委，對於原住民族的業務，你應該非常瞭解吧！很瞭解嘛。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：還差不多。"],["張委員宏陸：還差不多？好，我想請問一下，你都不要看，我們現在是16族，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：你可以說出每一族嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可以。"],["張委員宏陸：好，你說。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：排灣族、魯凱族、阿美族、卑南族、賽德克族、太魯閣族、雅美族、拉阿魯哇族、卡那卡那富族、邵族、鄒族、德路固，還有達悟族。"],["張委員宏陸：還沒16個啊！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：已經是13個了。"],["張委員宏陸：還沒16個啊！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：賽夏族、噶瑪蘭族……"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講啦！副主委，你都說你很……我今天不是故意要考你，但我覺得這個非常重要，全國所有原住民裡面有多少的縣市議員？有每個族群都代表到嗎？有每個族群都有縣市議員的代表嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前我們看到大概有3個族沒有任何縣市議員。"],["張委員宏陸：才3個而已嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，有3個族。"],["張委員宏陸：才3個？我認為你要說清楚喔！你今天在這邊講的要負責任喔！才3個沒有嗎？我現在說的是縣市議員喔！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：才3個嗎？你是不是手頭上沒有這個資料？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我裡面的資料是各縣市政府縣市議員、直轄市的名額而已。"],["張委員宏陸：你有名額嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，但是族群還沒有做整理。"],["張委員宏陸：你沒有族群嘛！所以你跟我講3個，你看你自己都滿心虛的，我只問你縣市議員，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：然後鄉鎮市長或區長，當然這個特別區，如果這裡是阿美族的地區，當然選的就是阿美族，人數多嘛！對不對？所以問題來了，如果照今天的修法內容，要所有的縣市議員、鄉鎮市長、區長同意，你認為人數比較少數的原住民族他有投票的權利嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有機會投票。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有機會投票嘛！對不對？既然沒有機會投票，那麼原住民族委員會的主委是不是應該要照顧所有原住民？人家人數特別少的，我們是不是要特別照顧他？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，這是原民會的責任，對。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！如果今天修法改成這樣的話，我是人數比較少的原住民族，我連投票的權利都沒有，等於他的聲音不見了！他沒有投票權，以後的主委會特別照顧他嗎？主委當然去照顧有投票權的人啊！是不是？他才能夠當主委啊！對不對？而且少數族的原住民族，他的人數比較少的，他們那個族永遠一輩子沒有機會當原住民的主委，會不會這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有可能。"],["張委員宏陸：有可能嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得這個不對啦！我們要照顧所有的原住民啊！原住民族每個人我們都要照顧到啦！不管他人數多或少啦！而且未來有可能會有新的族出現啊！所以副主委，在修這個法，我們不是說不照顧原住民，但是我現在問你的問題就凸顯出其問題所在了。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：會有很多的少數原住民族沒有受到照顧，甚至會遭到資源的排擠，他以後受到的照顧會非常少，這是我們擔心的，你會不會擔心啊？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：也會有這樣的想法、顧慮。"],["張委員宏陸：所以你也會擔心嘛！對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！所以我覺得這真的要好好的思考一下。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。","下一位我們請李柏毅委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.712843750000001,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.75346875,"end":21.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.980968750000002,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.132843750000003,"end":23.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.54596875,"end":26.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.44034375,"end":34.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.000968750000002,"end":30.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.33346875,"end":36.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.32471875,"end":39.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.14721875,"end":39.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.518468750000004,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.024718750000005,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.07471875,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.96471875,"end":49.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.75346875,"end":49.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.76159375,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.38971875,"end":57.439718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.447843750000004,"end":59.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.48159375,"end":60.899093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.15221875,"end":63.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.649718750000005,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.02471875,"end":68.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.86846875,"end":70.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.29846875,"end":79.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.35721875,"end":73.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.66034375000001,"end":77.06534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.51659375,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.18721875,"end":98.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.35596875,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.76096875,"end":80.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.63721875,"end":89.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.89721875000001,"end":100.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.87159375,"end":104.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.53346875000001,"end":107.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.55034375000001,"end":107.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.33909375,"end":107.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.38971875,"end":108.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.16596875,"end":123.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.99471875,"end":124.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.02846875,"end":129.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.04846875,"end":132.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.88784375,"end":133.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.35596875000002,"end":134.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.06471875,"end":140.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.19471875000002,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.39721875,"end":141.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.97471875000002,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.02534375000002,"end":144.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.24471875,"end":144.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.26159375,"end":144.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.58221875,"end":147.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.94909375,"end":146.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.39159375,"end":149.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.62346875,"end":150.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.28159375,"end":155.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.96846875,"end":157.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.09471875,"end":159.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.11159375,"end":159.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.88784375,"end":162.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.11096875,"end":167.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.62971875000002,"end":166.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.92471875,"end":167.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.54909375,"end":167.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.59971875000002,"end":167.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.83596875,"end":168.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.13971875000001,"end":168.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.32534375,"end":172.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.15596875,"end":172.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.22346875000002,"end":172.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.81409375,"end":177.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.87721875,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.21409375000002,"end":181.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.85909375,"end":184.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.21721875,"end":188.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.21659375000002,"end":189.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.25034375,"end":191.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.98409375,"end":192.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.64221875,"end":195.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.71346875,"end":197.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.39659375000002,"end":201.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.80534375000002,"end":202.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.69971875000002,"end":203.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.43784375,"end":205.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.23909375000002,"end":208.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.85909375,"end":212.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.34409375,"end":211.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.88784375,"end":214.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.07284375,"end":219.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.42284375000003,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.56971875000002,"end":226.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.86034375000003,"end":230.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.01596875,"end":231.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.99034375000002,"end":233.36159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.83409375000002,"end":235.45409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.16284375,"end":238.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.40721875000003,"end":239.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.71096875,"end":239.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.61784375000002,"end":255.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.17409375000003,"end":247.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.79346875000002,"end":250.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.30346875,"end":254.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.32846875,"end":257.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.15096875,"end":259.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.02409375,"end":260.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.07471875000005,"end":260.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.24346875000003,"end":260.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.82971875000004,"end":262.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.01096875,"end":263.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.07409375000003,"end":265.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.81596875,"end":268.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.83284375,"end":276.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.55721875,"end":282.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.56971875,"end":280.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.69596875,"end":287.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.59346875,"end":300.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.77721875000003,"end":302.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.12284375,"end":315.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.65659375,"end":325.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.25846875,"end":341.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.54721875,"end":366.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.89346875,"end":367.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.97784375000003,"end":367.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.24784375,"end":368.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.63159375000004,"end":368.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.25596875,"end":373.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.74471875,"end":378.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.02659375,"end":383.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.36346875000004,"end":402.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.66846875000005,"end":403.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.83721875000003,"end":404.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.36846875000003,"end":406.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.85346875000005,"end":412.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.53596875000005,"end":417.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.41284375000004,"end":419.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.98221875,"end":420.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.08346875,"end":420.48846875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.188,"end":35.989,"text":"請副主委麻煩副主委副主委明明為主委算不算政務官算算算不算政務官主委是政務官如果以今天的修法那他有任期的保障你認為合理嗎"},{"start":37.386,"end":65.834,"text":"正務官有任期的保障目前來講正務官應該是沒有任期的保障正務官不應該有任期的保障吧對不對對啊阿如果今天的修法正務官這個委員會組委並沒有任期的保障你支持嗎我覺得這個部分因為比較沒有這樣的規定一般正務官是隨著同進退的"},{"start":67.039,"end":67.459,"text":"委員高金素梅"},{"start":90.276,"end":104.659,"text":"對不對?你如果對我們原住民做得不好,大家所有的原住民都會認為他不好,他反而有任期保障之後那怎麼辦?那怎麼辦?他就在那邊四年什麼事都不用做也可以四年啊?"},{"start":106.701,"end":129.291,"text":"會不會變這樣?有可能他是掌管全國全台灣原住民的事務再來我要請教一下今天的修法內容還要縣市議會的議員鄉鎮市長區長同意你認為合理嗎?這個部分因為這是行政院應該要對立法院負責所以它是行政議題"},{"start":131.121,"end":152.039,"text":"所以應該這個部會的首長是院長提醒總統任命所以這個部分還要經過縣司委員比較特別不是啊你認為合理嗎目前沒有這樣的規定當然沒有這樣的規定啊你認為合理嗎你認為合理嗎你來到這邊的你來這邊備詢不應該只有校欸你認為合理嗎"},{"start":161.476,"end":179.494,"text":"我問你合不合理啦?合不合理?我要告訴你不合理的地方在哪裡?副主委對原住民族的業務你應該非常的了解吧?很了解齁?還差不多齁"},{"start":181.906,"end":201.899,"text":"好,我想請問一下,你都不要看,我們現在是16組對不對?是。你可以每一組都說出他的?可以。好,你說。台灣組、魯凱組、阿美組、北南組、賽德克組、太魯閣組、亞美組、拉拉組、甘迺甘迺夫組、邵組、周組、獨禄組、還有達烏組。"},{"start":207.264,"end":211.427,"text":"我今天不是故意要給你考試但我覺得這個非常重要你所有全國的原住民裡面"},{"start":233.035,"end":258.373,"text":"有多少的縣市議員?他有每個族群都代表到嗎?有每個族群都有縣市議員的代表嗎?目前我們看到大概有三個組,沒有任何縣市議員。才三個而已嗎?對,有三個組。才三個,我認為你要說清楚喔,你今天在這邊講的,要負責任喔,才三個沒有嗎?縣市議員,我現在說縣市議員喔。是。"},{"start":261.894,"end":264.234,"text":"我只問你縣市議員,對不對?"},{"start":288.632,"end":314.952,"text":"然後鄉鎮市長或區長他當然他這個特別區如果這裡是阿美族的地區他當然選的大概就是阿美族人數多嘛對不對所以問題來了如果說照今天的修法內容然後呢要所有的縣市議員鄉鎮市長區長去同意你認為比較少數的原住民族他有投票的權利嗎"},{"start":316.704,"end":340.275,"text":"沒有機會投票沒有機會投票嘛對不對那沒有機會投票我們原住民族委員會的組委他是不是應該要照顧所有的原住民連他人數特別少的我們是不是要特別照顧他是這是原民會的責任阿對啊阿如果今天修法改成這樣的話我比較少的原住民族我連"},{"start":341.476,"end":341.596,"text":"有可能嗎?"},{"start":369.417,"end":372.726,"text":"我覺得這個不對啦我們要照顧所有的原住民啦"},{"start":373.874,"end":399.265,"text":"原住民族每個人我們都要照顧到啦不管他人數多或少啦而且未來有可能會有新的組出現啊所以副主委在修這個法我們不是說不照顧原住民但是我現在問你的問題就凸顯出他的問題所在了會有很多的少數的原住民族沒有受到照顧甚至會遭到資源的排擠"},{"start":400.205,"end":400.325,"text":"二）委員"}]}},{"id":"154339","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154339","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c15298ff034d357bada706b406df85b801377aa0ad8b688799307f5de316788b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:30:08 - 09:39:51","影片長度":"00:09:43","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:30:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:39:51+08:00","duration":583,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":258,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時30分）主席，我們先請副主委。"],["主席：好，麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：副主委早。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，早。"],["沈委員發惠：今天為什麼主委沒有來？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：主委有其他的任務，所以由我來這邊。"],["沈委員發惠：有其他的任務？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，他有請假。"],["沈委員發惠：在我看來，今天這個原民會組織法的修正對原民會來講當然是非常重大，如果我們今天按照這個修正案通過，這一定會是原民會的一個重大變革。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個應該是一個非常重要的議題，所以主委沒有來讓我有點驚訝。剛才蘇巧慧委員在質詢時也講得相當清楚，我大概看了目前委員所提出的這個修正草案，就是第三條跟第四條的修正草案，裡面有幾個議題，雖然只有兩個條文的修正，但是議題蠻多的。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["沈委員發惠：大概有五個變動，在這幾個變動裡面有一些部分，我也很仔細地看了提案委員的立法說明；有的立法說明寫得沒有很清楚，我也不是很理解；那我又不能找提案委員上來質詢。所以對於這些問題，等一下如果有進入大體討論或逐條討論，我等有機會的時候再跟他們溝通，那有一些問題我先跟副主委來釐清。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["沈委員發惠：大概有幾個議題：第一個就是在第三條的部分有提出修正案，要由原民會主委兼任行政院政務委員，這是第一個議題；第二個是第四條，就是主委要由山地原住民和平地原住民輪流擔任，這個是第二個議題；第三個問題是主委的任命必須經過縣市議員跟區長的同意，這個是另外一個問題；第四個議題是副主委，目前規定是在三名副主委裡面有兩名原住民，那這個修正草案通過之後是三個人都要是原住民；最後就是在第四條他們拿掉了依聘用條例聘用的部分，就是將本會的委員改為無給職。所以應該就是這五個問題，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，分析起來是這五項。"],["沈委員發惠：好，剛才委員在提案說明的時候也有提到，我先談主委由山原、平原輪流擔任，剛才蘇巧慧委員也有提到。因為主委不是固定任期，今天假設任命了一個主委是山地原住民，結果他經過一個月，之後體檢時發現身體實在是不行，在一個月之後辭職，那下一個是要換平地原住民嗎？如果這個平地原住民一上來之後又被週刊爆料有婚外情，一個禮拜再換人，那又變成山地原住民，是這個意思嗎？對這個法條我實在搞不太懂所謂的輪流擔任是什麼意思，因為他沒有任期制，不是像其他委員會的主委有任期，所以可以這一任山原、下一任平原，因為這個沒有任期制，所以是隨時會變的，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，跟委員報告，在這裡面也有提到四年的時間、任期。"],["沈委員發惠：所以他要把任期固定成四年？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["沈委員發惠：固定成四年，然後再來由山原、平原輪流。但是目前憲法裡面有關山地原住民、平地原住民這樣的區分，事實上，有很多原住民包括原住民委員、提案委員自己本身都非常質疑，認為憲法規定山地原住民跟平地原住民以原住民實際上的生活型態來看，已經不合時宜了。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，沒有錯。"],["沈委員發惠：現在不是說住在山地原住民鄉就是山地原住民，住在一般都市就是平地原住民，現在不是啊！現在有很多山地原住民也住在都市裡面啊！對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以雖然這個山地原住民跟平地原住民的區分方式本身規定在憲法上面，但事實上，原住民對於山地原住民、平地原住民的區分本身就已經有相當大的質疑，現在還要將這樣子……大家已經有質疑了，更何況根據憲法判決第17號，未來是連平埔族一樣會納入原住民嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["沈委員發惠：如果現在我們在這樣一個學理上面，我們原住民朋友大家都覺得很有爭議的山地原住民跟平地原住民，又把這樣的制度……我們又把它擬定在新的立法上面，在這個憲法判決之後，把它擬在新的法令裡面，我覺得那會治絲益棼，這個是其次啦！再來，我們原民會是獨立機關嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["沈委員發惠：原民會是獨立機關嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：不是獨立機關。"],["沈委員發惠：不是獨立機關。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是行政院二級機關。"],["沈委員發惠：二級機關嘛！行政院的獨立機關在法律裡面有規定嘛，規定在哪裡？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：中選會是獨立機關。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，中選會、NCC還有公平會（公平交易委員會）。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，那是獨立機關。"],["沈委員發惠：規定在哪裡？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：行政院組織法。"],["沈委員發惠：行政院組織法嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["沈委員發惠：所以原民會不是獨立機關。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：不是。"],["沈委員發惠：它不是獨立機關，而現在說要任命主委必須經過同意，必須行使同意權；而行使同意權，在國民黨成為多數之後，他們把很多的職務都要求要行使同意權，這個我們也大概摸著鼻子認了啦！他們是多數，他們要這樣決定，但是我倒是第一次看到中央行政院二級機關的人事必須經由縣市議員跟區長的同意。副主委，我們現在有沒有其他機關單位的同意權是這樣行使的？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前沒有。"],["沈委員發惠：依憲法之規定，這個同意權、中央機關的委員的同意權，由地方民意代表來同意，這個在法理上，我比較才疏學淺，是不是請副主委跟我說明一下？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前沒有這樣的相關規定。"],["沈委員發惠：所以這個我就真的是有一點覺得……基本上原住民所提出來的這些案子，我們基於長期以來原住民他們的處境，在少數這樣的處境，我們都相當的同情，但是這個在立法上面，我覺得最基本的憲法，不要說到憲法，最基本的法理要符合啦！不符合的話，我們作為立法委員真的很難……這個法我很難舉手說我同意讓行政院的人事同意權由地方民意代表來施行，這個我是覺得很有問題啦！","副主委現在手上有沒有資料？目前案子所提的各縣市議員，具有原住民身分的議員，目前他的逐一分配是怎麼樣？你們有沒有資料？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前大概各族都有，但是只有3個族沒有，有拉阿魯哇……"],["沈委員發惠：人數啦！一族、一族講。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：各組人數現在還在統計中。"],["沈委員發惠：還在統計？還在統計？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["沈委員發惠：你們全國的縣市議員，他的逐一……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：總共有101位。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道總共有101位，他的逐一分配是怎麼樣？到現在還在統計？你們這樣我實在是不知從何說起！","最後，我看兩個委員的版本都有，將我們現在原民會的委員改為無給職，我就很好奇，這個應該是正面的立法，我趕快看一下他們的立法理由，但是立法理由我都看不出有什麼立法理由啊！為什麼要把目前按照聘任條例的要改成無給職？剛才說明時我也沒有聽到提案委員的說明啊！這部分我想等一下逐條討論的時候再談，請你在逐條討論之前把目前包括區長、包括地方的這些縣市議員，他的逐一分配，才101人，你們到現在都沒有統計！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：馬上把它統計出來，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。接下來我們請張宏陸委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.62409375,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.121593750000002,"end":15.235343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.63596875,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.05346875,"end":18.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.84659375,"end":19.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.06596875,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.52159375,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.99409375,"end":20.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.06159375,"end":20.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.73659375,"end":20.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.75346875,"end":20.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.78721875,"end":20.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.614093750000002,"end":21.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.64784375,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.96846875,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.031593750000003,"end":24.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.20846875,"end":30.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.262843750000002,"end":30.777218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.637843750000002,"end":37.290968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.830968750000004,"end":40.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.76284375,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.75346875,"end":54.570968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.515968750000006,"end":56.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.367843750000006,"end":58.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.414093750000006,"end":66.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.83909375,"end":67.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.10471875,"end":70.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.22659375,"end":78.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.87096875,"end":85.94159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.68409375,"end":97.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.83846875,"end":107.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.89596875000001,"end":117.75096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.34159375,"end":121.32846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.63221875,"end":126.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.96471875,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.50284375,"end":141.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.37596875,"end":143.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.97471875000002,"end":147.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.02471875,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.11284375,"end":153.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.74534375000002,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.09096875,"end":165.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.31284375,"end":172.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.47221875000002,"end":186.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.02784375000002,"end":184.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.53784375,"end":185.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.64721875,"end":200.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.06284375,"end":203.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.44221875000002,"end":205.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.26034375,"end":209.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.65221875,"end":210.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.39034375,"end":215.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.21659375000002,"end":218.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.45659375000002,"end":263.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.80409375000002,"end":237.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.95096875000002,"end":243.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.75346875,"end":264.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.35659375,"end":268.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.62221875,"end":267.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.83284375,"end":301.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.85659375,"end":278.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.31284375,"end":305.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.97471875,"end":308.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.65784375000004,"end":318.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.51284375,"end":326.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.86596875000004,"end":329.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.59971875,"end":330.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.69221875,"end":332.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.67096875000004,"end":333.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.81846875,"end":334.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.62846875,"end":334.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.18534375,"end":337.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.24409375000005,"end":337.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.49284375,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.52659375,"end":341.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.31096875000003,"end":341.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.42909375000005,"end":342.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.69471875000005,"end":344.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.52159375,"end":343.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.50034375,"end":345.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.49159375000005,"end":348.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.65534375000004,"end":352.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.27534375000005,"end":353.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.29221875,"end":353.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.30909375000005,"end":358.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.39346875,"end":353.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.43534375,"end":356.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.06784375,"end":358.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.15221875000003,"end":358.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.18596875000003,"end":361.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.76784375,"end":360.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.43846875,"end":363.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.31596875,"end":365.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.99909375000004,"end":374.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.77409375,"end":376.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.38971875000004,"end":378.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.97159375,"end":395.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.06596875,"end":400.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.11596875000004,"end":403.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.26721875000004,"end":405.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.07721875000004,"end":408.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.45659375,"end":409.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.75596875,"end":411.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.33784375000005,"end":413.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.94096875,"end":414.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.34159375,"end":418.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.71659375,"end":419.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.10034375000004,"end":420.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.17596875000004,"end":423.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.61034375,"end":424.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.17971875,"end":428.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.31409375000004,"end":431.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.33909375,"end":431.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.79471875,"end":452.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.83784375000005,"end":455.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.06096875000003,"end":483.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.87096875000003,"end":484.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.86659375000005,"end":486.87471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.98846875000004,"end":488.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.84909375,"end":489.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.63346875,"end":495.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.93659375000004,"end":499.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.54409375000006,"end":496.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.14721875000004,"end":499.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.20596875,"end":500.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.10034375000004,"end":503.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.33159375,"end":507.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.19221875000005,"end":507.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.20909375,"end":507.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.32721875000004,"end":507.54659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.7947187500001,"end":513.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.00971875,"end":516.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.1697187500001,"end":518.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.8403437500001,"end":520.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.3503437500001,"end":522.3628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.6865937499999,"end":534.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.1709687499999,"end":543.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.49034375,"end":547.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.45159375,"end":553.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.03721875,"end":554.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.20159375,"end":561.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.9934687500001,"end":567.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.38534375,"end":574.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.9622187500001,"end":577.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.57784375,"end":577.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.6115937500001,"end":577.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.6284687500001,"end":578.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.22721875,"end":581.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.16784375,"end":583.0790937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.873,"end":40.354,"text":"主席我們先請副主委麻煩副主委委員好副主委早是早今天為什麼主委沒有來?主委有其他的任務所以我來這邊他也請假在我看來今天這個原住這個原民會的組織法的修正這個對我們原民會來講當然是一個重大的"},{"start":42.403,"end":69.218,"text":"其實如果說我們今天按照這個修正案通過這一定會是我們原民會的一個重大變革所以這個應該是非常重要的議題所以主委沒有來我有點驚訝我想剛才蘇曉慧委員她的質詢她也講得大概相當清楚我大概看了這個目前這樣子"},{"start":71.7,"end":82.509,"text":"委員提出的修正草案有關第三條及第四條條文修正草案,大概有幾個議題,雖然只有兩條修正,但是議題蠻多的,應該有五個變動。我想這幾個變動有一些部分,我也很仔細看提案委員立法說明,有的立法說明我就不是,"},{"start":98.121,"end":114.647,"text":"我寫的沒有很清楚我也不是很理解那我又不能找這個提案委員上來質詢所以可能這些問題我就等一下留待如果說有再進入大體討論或主條討論的時候有機會再跟他們溝通那有一些問題我再先跟副主委來釐清這個大概有幾個議題第一個就是說"},{"start":118.728,"end":145.284,"text":"在這個第三條的部分有修正案提出要由原民會主委兼任行政院政務委員這是第一個議題第二就是在第四條就是有主委的部分要山地原住民跟平地原住民輪流擔任這個是第二個議題第三個問題是這個主委的任命必須經過這個"},{"start":148.406,"end":170.433,"text":"現事議員跟區長的同意這個是另外一個問題第四個議題是副主委目前規定是三名副主委裡面兩名原住民這個修正草案做下去是三個人都有原住民最後有一個就是在第四條的時候他們拿掉了這個"},{"start":173.513,"end":182.825,"text":"拿掉了這個依聘用辦法的部分就是將這個我們的這個本會的委員改為無極職大概就這五個問題對不對對分析這五項這裡面齁"},{"start":187.814,"end":215.361,"text":"剛才這個委員在提案說明的時候也有提到我先談說組委由這個三元平原的輪流剛才蘇小慧委員也有提到因為我們這個組委不是固定任期今天假設有一個組委任命了一個組委是山地原住民結果他經過一個月體檢發現身體實在不行一個月之後辭職那就下一個要換平地原住民還是那這個平地原住民一上來之後又被週刊爆料有婚外情"},{"start":216.277,"end":236.885,"text":"一個禮拜再換,那又變成三立原住民。他是這個意思,還是法條,我實在搞不太懂,說他這個所謂輪流齁,輪流擔任,因為他沒有任期制嘛,這個不是說像那其他委員會的這些主委他有主委任期,所以你可以說這一任三圓,下一任平圓,他這個沒有任期制他隨時會變的嘛,對不對?"},{"start":236.885,"end":239.606,"text":"是,各位報告他裡面也有提到四年的時間,任期。"},{"start":240.646,"end":263.002,"text":"所以他把任期固定成4年固定成4年然後再來但是也提到說事實上現在目前憲法裡面有關3D原住民、平地原住民目前這樣的區分事實上在很多原住民的包括原住民委員這些包括提案委員自己本身都非常質疑說憲法現在這個3D原住民跟平地原住民跟原住民生活型態實際上生活型態已經已經"},{"start":267.251,"end":288.342,"text":"現在不是說住在山地原住民鄉的就山地原住民住在一般都市就平地原住民現在不是啊現在很多山地原住民他也住在都市裡面啊對不對所以這個山地原住民跟平地原住民的區分方式這個本身雖然規定在憲法上面但是事實上原住民對於山地原住民平地原住民的區分本身就"},{"start":289.082,"end":289.122,"text":"．沈發惠"},{"start":302.786,"end":328.402,"text":"一樣會納入原住民來嘛那這個如果現在我們在這樣子一個學理上面我們原住民朋友大家都很有爭議的這個三億原住民跟平地原住民又把這樣的制度我們又把它擬定在新的立法上面在這個憲法判決之後擬在新的憲法上的法令裡面我覺得那是會自私一分啦自私一分這個是歧視啦再來就是說"},{"start":332.021,"end":340.765,"text":"這個我們這個我們原民會是獨立機關嗎?是原民會是獨立機關嗎?不是獨立機關行政院二級機關二級機關嘛獨立行政院獨立機關在法律裡面有規定吧在哪裡規定在哪裡?"},{"start":353.325,"end":375.923,"text":"主委中選會中選會是獨立機關我知道中選會NCCNCC還有公平會公平交易委員會對那是獨立機關規定在哪裡?行政院組織法行政院組織法嗎?對所以原民會他不是獨立機關他不是獨立機關他不是獨立機關他現在說要讓主委任命主委必須經過同意必須行使同意權"},{"start":380.091,"end":401.789,"text":"行使同意權這個我們在這個國民黨成為多數之後他們把很多的職務都要求要行使同意權這個我們也大概摸著鼻子認了啦這個他們多數他們要這樣決定但是我第一次看到說中央行政院的二級機關的人士必須經由縣市議員跟區長的同意"},{"start":406.186,"end":428.481,"text":"這個副主委我們現在目前有沒有其他的機關單位的同意權是這樣行使的目前沒有那依憲法這個同意權中央的中央機關的這個委員的同意權由地方民意代表來同意這個在法理上我比較才出學潛是不是請副主委跟我說明一下"},{"start":429.486,"end":455.332,"text":"目前沒有這樣的相關規定所以這個我就真的是有一點覺得說這個我們都會支持基本上原住民所提出來的這些案子我們基於長期以來這個原住民他們的處境在少數的這樣的處境我們都相當的同情但是這個在立法上面我覺得基本最基本的憲法不要說都說到憲法最基本的法理"},{"start":456.152,"end":470.11,"text":"要符合啦齁,不符合的話我們真的是作為立法委員很難,這個法我很難說舉手說啊我同意這樣子,這樣子讓行政院的人士同意權由地方民意代表來施行齁,這個我是覺得"},{"start":471.852,"end":473.933,"text":"目前大概各組都有但是只有三個組沒有有拉魯啊人數啦人數一組一組講人數"},{"start":501.138,"end":503.42,"text":"各族人數現在還在統計中還在統計還在統計你們全國的縣市議員總共有101位我知道總共有101位啦他的族裔分配怎麼樣到現在還在統計"},{"start":529.727,"end":545.718,"text":"你們這個實在是齁我實在是不知從何說起了齁再來最後齁就改他們這個我看兩個委員版本都有齁將我們現在原民會的委員改為無極職啦那我就覺得我就很好奇這個應該是"},{"start":548.559,"end":556.689,"text":"是這個正面的立法我趕快看一下他們的立法理由在立法理由我都看不出有什麼立法理由啊為什麼要把目前的按照聽證條例的為什麼要改成無極值剛才說明我也沒有聽到這個提案委員的說明啊"},{"start":564.045,"end":564.465,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"154334","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154334","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c30f70cdeea96c8bfda706b406df85b801377aa0ad8b68879b71df2bc9b747a7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:21:59 - 09:30:02","影片長度":"00:08:03","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:21:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:30:02+08:00","duration":483,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":199,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時22分）謝謝主席。我們就請鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：副主委好。我就問你今天的質詢題目，今天質詢題目是原民會的組織法要不要照鄭委員的版本還有高金委員的版本修正，是這樣嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你覺得今天這版本可行嗎？委員提出的版本。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：原民會這二十八年來針對組織法的運作過程，在不同政黨執政的情況下，其實推動都還算滿順利的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這樣？順利的原因是因為原民會可以理解到原住民族朋友的需求，大致上來說，不管是國民黨執政時期還是民進黨執政時期，應該都是朝著要為族人做事的方向來做的嘛？這沒有問題嘛？對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我們的原民會主委是山原、平原都有擔任過嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：都有擔任過。"],["蘇委員巧慧：都有擔任過？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，是輪流嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：不一定。"],["蘇委員巧慧：不一定？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：看當下最適合的人選，是這樣子嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那如果是我們的副主委的話呢？是山原、平原都有嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：以前的副主委也有……"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在副主委有幾個？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：現在副主委有3位。"],["蘇委員巧慧：有3位？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那以現在來講的話，現在都是……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：現在有3位，2個政務，1個常務……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那他們的身分別分別是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：1個平原、2個山原。"],["蘇委員巧慧：1個平原、2個山原？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那我們現任的主委是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：曾智勇山原。"],["蘇委員巧慧：山原？這一屆山原比較多耶！那平原不會跳起來嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為這個是……"],["蘇委員巧慧：適才適所？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：適才適所，好，我想如果照今天修正的版本、鄭委員的版本通過之後，會變成山原、平原一定要輪流擔任，但我看今天鄭委員這個條文文字裡面，其實有幾個地方我看不太懂，如果我們到時候進入逐條的話，也可能要請鄭委員多說明一下。第一，他是要求輪流，輪流的意思是……因為我們是政務官任命嘛？所以我們其實沒有任期的保障，不是說做滿4年，而是是行政院長的任命，所以這一任下來以後，下一任馬上就要輪，每一次的身分別都一定要不一樣，這才叫輪流吧？他的條文文字應該是這樣，你讀起來應該也是這個意思嘛，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好。第二個，他說次長的部分應由山地原住民與平地原住民擔任，這句話是什麼意思，我也看不太懂，這個到底是分別擔任各要有一席呢？還是只要有山地原住民身分跟平地原住民身分就可以？如果是這樣有身分就可以，那就跟原條文有原住民身分其實是一樣的意思，這樣好像也不用修正嘛！好，再來，他現在說我們現在的原民會主委，如果行政院長提名之後，要由全國具原住民身分的民意代表、甚至是鄉、鎮、市、區長召開審查會同意後才任命之，我不曉得你有沒有跟鄭委員討論過或者去瞭解他的意思？這個同意是要怎麼個同意法？是要全體同意、四分之三同意還是二分之一同意？他這個同意是什麼意思，你們有瞭解過嗎？還有，現在這樣具有身分來同意的人數有多少人？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前我們初估大概有將近100位，不過還要再精確一點。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你說有將近100位？這個數字不是應該很明確嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有101位，直轄市議員有22位，縣市議員有46位，鄉、鎮、市、區長有原民身分的有32位。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以在101位裡面到底要怎麼個同意法？從這個條文看起來好像也沒有理解嘛！對不對？然後如果我們看他立法理由的說明，裡面是說這個主委如果沒有做過地方基層官員或經過民代的歷練，將難以精確掌握原住民族的需求，不利事務推動。如果是這樣的話，副主委，以你現在的角度來看過去的幾位主委，你覺得孫大川主委做得怎麼樣？對馬英九任命的孫大川孫主委，你覺得他怎麼樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：其實孫前主委很稱職。"],["蘇委員巧慧：很稱職？孫主委有做過地方基層官員或者是民意代表嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：他是學者。"],["蘇委員巧慧：他是學者嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以以後像孫大川這樣的人都不能夠來為原住民族服務，沒有辦法擔任主委，這樣你同意嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個是適才適用，而且是院長的提名權。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以你到底是同意還是不同意啊？你一定要我像其他委員這樣問你「是或否」嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當然會比較狹隘，因為如果說學者專家，對原住民事務有很多人都非常關心。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以其實今天是這樣嘛！大家都非常的肯認社會上優秀的人才出身不一種，更何況行政院長的行政權裡面所包含的人事同意權其實是憲法所賦予的，如果我們今天可以用這樣的態度，說行政院長要任命的原民會主委，要經過全國具有原民身分的民意機關代表來做同意才可以任命、上任的話，那我今天是不是也可以要求內政部長以後也應該要有全臺灣各縣市首長及各鄉鎮首長、區長大家一起來投票同意，同意之後才可以上任？教育部長也是由全國小學、國中、高中、大學的校長都來同意，乾脆連校長都要全體學生同意，這樣難道不會亂了套嗎？我覺得原民會在表示這個意見的時候，其實你們說得很委婉，但是第一，這是憲法層次的行政權的部分，其實不應該照最近的這種氛圍，又是剝奪行政權裡面的人事權，又是剝奪行政院裡面的預算配置權，這都是在削弱行政權的一種手法。甚至我必須說，其實原住民族有那麼多族，有16族啊！那你為什麼不乾脆規定由16族的族人朋友輪流擔任，乾脆這樣規定好了，這樣不是更公平嗎？我覺得在某個程度上，像我們平時這麼支持原住民朋友權益的保障，今天叫我們站在這裡，然後如果因為我這樣子反對他這個粗糙的修法，就把我說成是打壓人民，那我反而會覺得你這個其實是在挑撥原住民族人朋友之間，甚至和整體社會之間的一個情緒而已嘛！我們是立法委員，應該是要看法條訂得好不好、合不合理、合不合憲，不應該是這樣嗎？副主委，我希望如果進入逐條的時候，你們對於所有的理由、現實上的窒礙難行之處以及法條的不完備處，要能夠比今天的書面報告講得更清楚。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為這顯然是一個違法、違憲的條文，不應該這樣修，這樣才是真正守護原住民族朋友的優秀人才可以來適才適所擔任主委以及擔任副主委這些官員、這些政務官的資格和機會，你是在替優秀人才守護機會，這一點一定要大聲說出來啦！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員。我們下一位請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.77909375,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.20471875,"end":22.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.512218750000002,"end":26.035343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.625968750000002,"end":28.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.02221875,"end":30.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.03034375,"end":31.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.06409375,"end":31.367843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.55346875,"end":41.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.11721875,"end":43.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.38284375,"end":45.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.66096875,"end":46.133468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.352843750000005,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.423468750000005,"end":72.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.26096875,"end":67.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.27284375,"end":74.56784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.33596875,"end":75.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.96846875,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.01471875,"end":77.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.30159375000001,"end":77.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.63909375,"end":80.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.55846875,"end":81.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.87909375000001,"end":84.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.82784375,"end":87.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.51534375,"end":87.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.69659375,"end":90.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.01284375,"end":91.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.29096875,"end":94.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.19346875000001,"end":95.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.03721875000001,"end":97.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.33221875000001,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.04909375000001,"end":101.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.77034375000001,"end":105.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.71471875,"end":107.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.25034375000001,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.31346875000001,"end":110.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.46096875,"end":111.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.98409375000001,"end":157.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.09909375,"end":220.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.38034375,"end":225.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.78471875000002,"end":228.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.15596875000003,"end":228.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.87284375000002,"end":238.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.34409375,"end":237.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.27221875,"end":257.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.91471875,"end":258.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.57284375,"end":267.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.41534375000003,"end":267.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.53346875,"end":270.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.95909375,"end":273.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.13596875,"end":277.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.81034375,"end":278.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.41784375000003,"end":279.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.46846875,"end":279.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.58221875000004,"end":285.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.16346875,"end":289.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.24721875,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.18346875000003,"end":296.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.73971875,"end":303.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.11471875,"end":301.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.71784375000004,"end":361.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.06721875,"end":436.24971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.31284375,"end":452.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.29346875000005,"end":476.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.85096875000005,"end":477.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.08284375000005,"end":478.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.70721875000004,"end":478.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.74096875000004,"end":480.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.84596875000005,"end":481.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.98096875000005,"end":482.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.47034375000004,"end":483.28034375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":21.524,"end":43.971,"text":"副主委副主委好副主委那我就問你今天的質詢題目啦今天質詢題目是這個原民會的組織法嗎要不要照這個政委員的版本修正還有高金委員的版本嗎是這樣你覺得今天這版本可行嗎委員提出的版本原民會這28年來"},{"start":46.519,"end":48.74,"text":"人民會主委是山原平原都有擔任過嗎?都有擔任過是輪流嗎?"},{"start":76.261,"end":76.481,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":106.792,"end":107.276,"text":"而因為這個就是"},{"start":109.415,"end":137.274,"text":"市財市所市財市所我想如果照今天的我們修正的版本鄭委員的版本通過之後那現在的部分會變成是山園平原的話是一定要輪流擔任而且其實我看他今天的鄭委員的這個條文文字裡面其實有幾個地方我看不太懂如果我們到時候進入這個主條的話也可能要請鄭委員多說明一下第一他是要求輪流輪流的意思是"},{"start":138.135,"end":138.255,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":158.827,"end":174.28,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等26人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等26人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等26人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等26人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等26人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四"},{"start":182.987,"end":207.723,"text":"好那再來的話他現在說我們現在的原民會組委如果行政院長提名之後要有全國的原住民身份的民意代表甚至是鄉鎮區長召開審查會同意後才任命之我不曉得你有沒有跟政委員討論過或者了解他的意思這個同意是要怎麼個同意法是要全體同意"},{"start":209.184,"end":210.064,"text":"執下市議員有22位縣市議員有46位鄉鎮市區長"},{"start":237.393,"end":256.829,"text":"所以101位裡面到底要怎麼個同意法這條文看起來好像也沒有理解嘛對不對然後如果我們看他的立法理由說明的話是說哇這個主委齁如果沒有做過地方基層官員或民代的歷練將難以精確掌握原住民族的需求不利事務推動"},{"start":258.871,"end":285.052,"text":"所以這樣子的話副主委以你現在的角度來看過去的這個幾位主委孫大川孫主委你覺得他做的怎麼樣馬英九任命的孫大川孫主委你覺得他怎麼樣其實前孫主委很稱職很稱職孫主委有做過地方基層官員或者是民意代表嗎他是學者他是學者嗎是所以這樣以後孫大川這樣的人都不能夠來為原住民族服務沒有辦法擔任主委這樣你同意嗎"},{"start":287.038,"end":296.327,"text":"這是適材適用而且是院長的提名權所以你到底是同意還是不同意啊?你要一定要我像其他委員這樣問你是或否嗎?"},{"start":297.836,"end":304.101,"text":"所以其實今天是這樣嘛,大家都非常的肯認社會上優秀的人才出身不只一種更何況人事權、行政院長的人事權、行政權裡面包含的人事統一權其實是憲法所賦予的"},{"start":321.135,"end":338.784,"text":"如果我們今天可以用這樣的態度是說原民會的組委行政院長要任命的原民會組委是要經過全國的民意機關原民的具有原民身份的民意機關來做同意才可以任命上任的話那我今天是不是也可以要求說內政部長"},{"start":340.745,"end":359.515,"text":"以後也應該要有全台灣各縣市首長及各鄉鎮首長、區長大家一起來投票同意,同意之後才可以上任教育部長也是啦,全國的小學、國中、高中、大學、校長都來同意乾脆連校長都要全體學生同意,這樣難道不會亂了套嗎?"},{"start":362.196,"end":375.591,"text":"我是覺得其實原民會在表示這個意見的時候其實你們說的很委婉啦但是第一這是憲法層次的行政權的部分其實不應該照最近的這種氛圍齁"},{"start":377.513,"end":378.533,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":400.759,"end":401.9,"text":"我反而會覺得你這個其實是在挑撥原住民族人朋友之間甚至和整體社會之間的一個情緒而已嘛"},{"start":429.312,"end":452.285,"text":"我們是立法委員應該是要看法條定的好不好、合不合理、合不合憲不是是應該是這樣嗎?主委、副主委我是希望如果進入主條的時候你們要把所有的理由、現實上的至愛難行之處以及法條的不完備處要能夠比今天的書面報告要講得更清楚"},{"start":453.326,"end":476.195,"text":"因為這顯然是一個違法違憲的條文不應該這樣修啦這樣才是真正守護原住民族朋友的優秀人才可以來市財市所擔任主委以及擔任副主委這些官員這些政務官的資格和機會你是在替優秀人才守護機會這一點一定要大聲說出來啦是是謝謝副主委是謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":481.985,"end":482.006,"text":"謝蘇委員"}]}},{"id":"154333","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154333","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726ca7c2cb4dea52fb6cda706b406df85b801377aa0ad8b68879b9131942535bd7ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:12:42 - 09:21:54","影片長度":"00:09:12","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:12:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:21:54+08:00","duration":552,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":154,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時12分）謝謝主席，麻煩請常務副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：黃委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：副主委早。延續上次對原民會質詢的內容，我對於花納稅人的錢拍主委馬屁這件事情完全沒有辦法接受，為什麼這樣看呢？我們的賴清德總統事實上對於清廉的要求非常高，很早以前他就說要杜絕拍馬屁文化的態度，結果我們來看看我們前任的原民會主委幹了什麼事情？花了145萬納稅人的公帑出他個人成果專刊，這項個人成果專刊不是在講原民會做了什麼，是在講他個人的豐功偉業！","我們來看一看，原住民族委員會八年施政成果專刊有沒有出？有出，花了112萬，頁數有221頁，我手上就是八年的專刊；結果前主委夷將今年花了一百四十幾萬出了一本125頁的書。我當初在質詢的時候，他說什麼？他說這當然不是在推銷他個人，他指責我還沒有看到他的專刊內容，出版的時候會提供給我們參考。現在出版了，我手上就是這本書，這本書叫什麼？《原權推手　承先啓後》夷將．拔路兒，這本書的作者是誰？請！這本書的作者是誰？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：原民會。"],["黃委員國昌：這本書的作者是原民會，那奇怪了，他的提名是原權推手，他指的是誰？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：夷將．拔路兒，前主委。"],["黃委員國昌：來看看，巨細靡遺，描述主委的生平，125頁有40頁在吹捧他的生長、求學還有原運的啟蒙。60頁全部都是他的照片，125頁中花了上百頁在介紹他的生平、到各個地方去的照片，這本書副主委看過沒有？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，有。"],["黃委員國昌：對於這樣子內容的摘要，你同不同意？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，這本書的確是在整理過程中有多論述他個人一些對原住民的相關奮鬥歷程。"],["黃委員國昌：他個人啦！我們花公務預算搞這種事情喔？真的在討論過去這八年原民會做什麼的有幾頁？有幾頁？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我沒有記那個頁數，後面還是有提到我們……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我幫你整理出來啦！24頁，我請教你一個問題，24頁的內容有哪一個項目是這本書沒寫的？有哪一個項目是你們之前八年成果專刊沒寫的？全部都是用磅數非常足的銅版紙，花了一百四十幾萬在搞個人宣傳！我們看裡面，他的原運啟蒙之路、他小時候的照片、他念書時候的照片，下面60頁是他到各個地方的照片。這本書後面的價格一本300塊，原民會買了幾本？這本書一本300塊，我是不相信放在書店的書架上有人會買，這本書原民會買了幾本？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們沒有買。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有買？145萬換了幾本回去原民會？這個標案書出來，你花了145萬嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你拿到幾本書？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：應該有一、兩百本。"],["黃委員國昌：一、兩百本？所以一本多少錢？145萬你拿到100本，所以一本多少錢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們不是買的，就是因為出版單位……"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以你花了145萬，給你100本這個東西，公務的錢是這樣花的？平均1本1.45萬，拿來吹捧主委，可以這樣幹喔！原民會是預算太多是不是？錢花不完是不是？可以這樣搞喔！你覺得適合嗎！納稅的錢這樣花，你覺得適合嗎！展現你的態度啊！納稅的錢這樣花，你覺得適合嗎！請說明。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，我想當初可能是因為夷將主委在任內八年的確有一些工作，所以我們做了八年的一些……"],["黃委員國昌：不是出過一本八年成果專刊了嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，我們也希望跟他個人長期為原住民整個……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是，你們要為這一筆錢的花費持續的辯護，未來還是會這樣搞，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：不會、不會，應該……因為前面……"],["黃委員國昌：不會啊，你如果沒有做錯，你為什麼不這樣搞？每一個主委都可以出啊！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為前面幾任也有做過那樣的一些整理。"],["黃委員國昌：有搞得這麼誇張喔？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：應該……"],["黃委員國昌：有搞得這麼誇張喔？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：應該沒有那麼細。"],["黃委員國昌：來！看一下，政府機關辦理政策宣導不可以下列方式置入性行銷，不可以做首長自我宣傳，這個有沒有違反政府機關政策文宣規劃執行注意事項？有還是沒有？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們還是做一個政策說明。"],["黃委員國昌：你現在還在講政策說明喔？125頁上百頁，都是他個人的宣傳跟照片，然後你現在跟我講這個是政策說明？如果按照你這樣解釋，125頁中有上百頁在做個人的宣傳，沒有違反這個注意事項，那請問什麼時候會違反這個注意事項？請說明。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是不是請委員讓我們也去檢討看看這個部分。"],["黃委員國昌：你要怎麼檢討？可以啊！來、來、來，行政院主計總處預算法第六十二條之一執行原則，不可以違反我剛剛所講的注意事項，你說要檢討有沒有違反，好！有沒有違反剛剛的注意事項，這個錢可不可以用公帑出，還是要請夷將自己花145萬把那100本買回去，這經費可以報銷嗎？以後原民會還會幹這種事嗎？你剛剛說要檢討，可以！需要多久？檢討不是用嘴巴講的啦！書面檢討報告有沒有違反規定、誰要出錢、經費可不可以報銷，你說要檢討，我給你時間檢討，需要多久？一個禮拜夠不夠？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：一個月的時間，一個月。"],["黃委員國昌：這種事情的檢討要檢討一個月喔？原民會的效率這麼差喔？這麼簡單的事情要檢討一個月喔？兩個禮拜好不好？可以嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好。"],["黃委員國昌：好！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位我們請蘇巧慧委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.03784375,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.98596875,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.26846875,"end":20.972843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.972843750000003,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.739093750000002,"end":36.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.987218750000004,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.49721875,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.68659375,"end":51.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.30971875,"end":53.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.368468750000005,"end":55.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.12346875,"end":57.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.320968750000006,"end":65.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.26534375,"end":70.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.36159375,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.96409375,"end":78.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.25909375,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.48221875,"end":83.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.35096875,"end":86.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.59534375000001,"end":88.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.72159375000001,"end":91.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.32034375,"end":92.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.65346875,"end":95.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.20159375,"end":97.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.93971875000001,"end":98.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.45846875000001,"end":100.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.24721875,"end":102.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.85034375000001,"end":103.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.98909375000001,"end":108.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.25846875,"end":110.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.74346875,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.11846875,"end":121.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.95284375000001,"end":122.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.67409375000001,"end":125.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.73284375000001,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.35659375,"end":131.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.71909375,"end":134.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.95471875,"end":138.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.36784375000002,"end":140.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.76846875,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.48909375,"end":146.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.50596875000002,"end":147.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.31596875,"end":148.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.37909375,"end":149.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.05409375000002,"end":149.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.25659375,"end":150.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.87659375,"end":152.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.78346875,"end":154.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.34846875000002,"end":156.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.32284375,"end":158.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.04409375,"end":159.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.73159375,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.08534375000002,"end":165.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.50284375,"end":167.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.95409375,"end":168.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.63721875000002,"end":171.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.98284375,"end":174.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.29471875000002,"end":176.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.28596875000002,"end":179.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.45846875,"end":182.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.25971875000002,"end":185.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.54596875000001,"end":194.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.35909375,"end":196.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.26596875,"end":199.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.32034375,"end":201.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.09221875,"end":205.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.54284375,"end":208.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.08221875,"end":215.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.61346875,"end":217.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.18284375000002,"end":216.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.36846875,"end":216.46971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.77346875,"end":216.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.54534375,"end":220.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.05534375000002,"end":225.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.15159375000002,"end":232.06221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.85909375000003,"end":236.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.96846875000003,"end":240.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.41096875000002,"end":243.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.46534375000002,"end":245.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.04284375,"end":249.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.61221875,"end":251.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.70034375000003,"end":253.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.29034375000003,"end":258.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.46659375,"end":264.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.67721875,"end":267.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.88346875,"end":270.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.36409375,"end":272.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.35534375000003,"end":274.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.04659375,"end":278.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.22784375000003,"end":280.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.79284375000003,"end":284.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.99034375,"end":288.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.83784375,"end":291.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.69846875,"end":292.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.91346875,"end":294.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.60096875,"end":296.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.89159375,"end":302.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.87846875,"end":301.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.60659375,"end":314.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.25596875,"end":317.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.92221875,"end":320.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.84971875,"end":325.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.53284375000004,"end":329.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.42221875,"end":333.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.25284375,"end":337.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.92721875,"end":341.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.52596875,"end":343.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.68159375000005,"end":347.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.48284375000003,"end":349.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.65971875,"end":351.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.86596875000004,"end":354.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.59909375,"end":362.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.86409375000005,"end":367.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.37409375000004,"end":371.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.20034375,"end":374.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.75721875000005,"end":374.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.77409375,"end":374.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.56721875000005,"end":383.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.76846875,"end":385.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.84409375,"end":386.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.53596875000005,"end":386.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.56971875000005,"end":386.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.58659375,"end":386.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.97471875,"end":387.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.02534375000005,"end":388.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.61159375,"end":392.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.67846875000004,"end":400.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.99471875,"end":395.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.13721875000005,"end":400.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.18784375,"end":402.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.99346875000003,"end":404.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.30096875000004,"end":406.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.27534375000005,"end":410.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.53221875,"end":411.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.84409375,"end":413.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.70471875000004,"end":415.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.15596875,"end":416.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.53971875,"end":416.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.72534375000004,"end":422.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.84659375,"end":425.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.62659375000004,"end":432.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.79784375,"end":440.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.24034375,"end":443.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.97846875000005,"end":444.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.06284375,"end":444.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.19784375,"end":446.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.59409375,"end":448.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.41221875,"end":456.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.07346875,"end":462.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.39659375,"end":468.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.48909375000005,"end":473.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.77971875000003,"end":474.67409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.48409375000006,"end":476.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.42471875,"end":478.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.71971875,"end":483.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.95534375000005,"end":486.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.26284375000006,"end":489.43971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.68846875,"end":491.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.13971875000004,"end":493.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.92846875000004,"end":495.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.57784375000006,"end":497.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.73784375,"end":500.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.76284375000006,"end":502.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.97346875000005,"end":504.52596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.71971875,"end":508.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.45346875,"end":511.73159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.6553437499999,"end":515.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.4565937500001,"end":517.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.7178437499999,"end":520.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.86096875,"end":528.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.57284375,"end":530.5303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.5303437499999,"end":532.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.54721875,"end":530.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.1584687500001,"end":535.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.3015937499999,"end":538.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.4909687500001,"end":540.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.22909375,"end":541.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.40596875,"end":543.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.05096875,"end":549.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.33784375,"end":547.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.0378437500001,"end":552.09659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.665,"end":13.131,"text":"誒,謝謝主席,先是麻煩有請常務副主委。"},{"start":19.558,"end":42.219,"text":"副主委早了,尤其上次對於人民會執行的內容我對於花納稅的錢拍主委的馬屁這件事情完全沒有辦法接受為什麼這樣看呢我們的賴清德總統事實上在清廉的要求非常的高很早以前他就說要杜絕拍馬屁文化的態度"},{"start":44.035,"end":53.342,"text":"結果我們來看看我們的原民會主委前任的幹了什麼事情花了145萬納稅人的公帑出他個人成果專刊這個人成果專刊不是在講原民會做了什麼是在講他個人的豐功偉業我們來看一看"},{"start":71.414,"end":81.117,"text":"原住民族八年施政成果專刊有沒有出有出花了一百一十二萬頁數有兩百二十一頁我手上就是八年的專刊結果前主委一降今年花了一百四十幾萬出了一頁"},{"start":98.001,"end":103.465,"text":"兩百一百二十五頁一百二十五頁的書啊我當初在質詢的時候啊他說什麼他說這當然不是在推銷我個人啊他指責說我還沒有看到我的專刊內容出版的時候會提供給我們參考現在出版了"},{"start":123.715,"end":131.521,"text":"我手上就這本書啊這本書叫什麼?原權推手 陳先啟後 宜將把路兒這本書的作者是誰?請 這本書的作者是誰?呃 園民會這本書的作者是園民會那奇怪了他提名是原權推手他指的是誰?宜將把路兒宜將把路兒 來來看看"},{"start":150.953,"end":179.164,"text":"具繫米儀描述主委的生平一百二十五頁有四十頁在吹捧他的生長、求學還有原因的啟蒙六十頁全部都是他的照片一百二十五頁花了上百頁在介紹他的生平到各個地方去的照片"},{"start":180.609,"end":204.82,"text":"這本書副主委你看過沒有我對於這樣子內容的摘要你同不同意對這本書的確是在整理過程中有多論述他個人的一些對原住民的相關奮鬥歷程他個人啊我們花公務預算在搞這種事情喔真的在討論過去這8年原民會做什麼的有幾頁有幾頁"},{"start":212.148,"end":232.484,"text":"我沒有進那個頁數後面還是有提到我們沒關係我幫你整理出來啦24頁24頁我下一個問題啊24頁的內容有哪一個項目是這本書沒寫的有哪一個項目是你們之前的八年成果專開沒寫的全部啊都是用棒數非常足的銅板紙"},{"start":241.488,"end":245.569,"text":"花了一百四十幾萬在搞個人宣傳我們看裡面嘛他的原意啟蒙之路他小時候的照片他念書時候的照片下面六十頁他到各個地方的照片這本書後面的價格"},{"start":271.391,"end":274.672,"text":"一本三百塊原民會買了幾本這一本書一本三百塊我是不相信放在書店的書架上有人會買了這本書原民會買了幾本我們沒有買沒有買一百四十五萬換了幾本回去原民會"},{"start":298.39,"end":302.231,"text":"這個標案書出出來 你花了一百四十五萬嘛 是你拿到幾本書應該都有一百 一兩百本一兩百本 所以一本多少錢一百四十五萬 你拿到一百本 一本多少錢"},{"start":322.952,"end":332.978,"text":"我不是買的 就是因為有出版單位對 所以你花了145萬給你一百本這個東西公務的錢是這樣花的喔平均一本1.45萬拿來吹捧族委可以這樣幹喔原民會是預算太多是不是錢花不完是不是可以這樣搞喔"},{"start":354.039,"end":354.059,"text":"請說明﹗"},{"start":375.58,"end":384.701,"text":"各位報告我想當初可能也就是因為一向主委在任內8年也的確有一些工作我們做了8年的一些"},{"start":386.248,"end":394.755,"text":"不是出過一本8年成果專刊了嗎?所以你的意思是說你們要為這一筆錢的花費持續的辯護未來還會這樣搞是不是?不會啊你如果沒有做錯你為什麼不這樣搞?每一個組委都可以出啊有搞得這麼誇張喔?"},{"start":415.471,"end":425.714,"text":"應該...應該沒有那麼細來看一下政府機關辦理政策宣導不可以下列方式置入性行銷不可以做首長自我宣傳這個沒有違反政府機關政策文宣規劃執行注意事項有還是沒有我們還是做一個政策說明啦"},{"start":442.301,"end":442.321,"text":"請說明"},{"start":470.618,"end":497.51,"text":"是不是我們也請委員讓我們也去檢討看看這個部門你要怎麼檢討可以啊來來來來來行政院主計總出預算法62條之一執行原則不可以違反我剛剛所講的注意事項你說要檢討有沒有違反好有沒有違反剛剛的注意事項這個錢可不可以用公帑出還是要請移降"},{"start":498.792,"end":503.814,"text":"自己花145萬把那100本買回去這經費可以報銷嗎以後園民會還會幹這種事嗎你剛說要檢討可以需要多久檢討不是用嘴巴講的啦書面檢討報告"},{"start":518.769,"end":531.895,"text":"有沒有違反規定錢誰要出金費可不可以報銷你說要檢討給你時間檢討需要多久一個禮拜夠不夠一個月的時間一個月這種事情的檢討要檢討一個月喔委員會的效率這麼差喔這麼簡單的事情要檢討一個月喔兩個禮拜好不好可以嗎好"},{"start":547.065,"end":547.788,"text":"下一位我們請舒巧慧"}]}},{"id":"154332","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154332","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c3a3507b3a86c6727da706b406df85b801377aa0ad8b68879183e890e354bbf0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"09:04:35 - 09:07:57","影片長度":"00:03:22","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-27","start_time":"2024-06-27T09:04:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-27T09:07:57+08:00","duration":202,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.047218750000001,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.73659375,"end":22.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.01471875,"end":25.562843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.731593750000002,"end":27.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.85784375,"end":33.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.51096875,"end":37.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.79721875,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.393468750000004,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.00784375,"end":77.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.41971875,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.24534375,"end":89.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.17721875000001,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.35846875,"end":95.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.15096875,"end":98.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.76659375000001,"end":103.18784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.72784375,"end":104.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.85846875,"end":108.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.55409375,"end":111.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.24971875000001,"end":113.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.54471875,"end":120.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.53096875000001,"end":124.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.97346875000001,"end":127.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.80409375000002,"end":134.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.19971875000002,"end":136.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.30909375000002,"end":139.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.04284375,"end":140.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.07221875000002,"end":142.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.79346875000002,"end":163.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.15721875,"end":164.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.84471875,"end":167.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.24096875,"end":170.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.43034375000002,"end":174.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.94034375,"end":176.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.96534375000002,"end":180.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.23909375000002,"end":190.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.35971875,"end":199.64534375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.279,"end":24.189,"text":"主席、各位委員、各部會的代表本席所提出原住民族委員會組織法還有高金素梅委員要提出對於第三條我主要的修正有兩個重點第一個重點就是過去從人民會民國85年10月成立到現在"},{"start":34.094,"end":41.469,"text":"總共原住民族委員會的主任委員,絕大部分都是平地原住民在擔任。"},{"start":42.318,"end":66.41,"text":"那事實上在我們原住民族的轄區遼闊各族群非常廣然後這個三眼平眼雖然我不願意劃分但是憲法既然還是繼續存在那事實上它的實際上的一個各種狀況都不太一樣所以我是特別提出這樣的一個修正希望由山地原住民與平地原住民"},{"start":67.15,"end":85.453,"text":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案 案。．董事長鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案 案。．董事長鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案 案。．董事長鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條條文修正草案 案。．董事長鄭天財Sra Kacaw"},{"start":96.635,"end":119.298,"text":"國家因依民族意願保障原住民族之地位及政治參與在原住民族自治法還沒有完成之前我們前任的蘇貞昌院長曾經說要分流自治今天的修法就是分流自治的選項之一這是第一個來說明"},{"start":121.744,"end":141.65,"text":"滿一久執政的時候曾經提出這個原住民族自治暫行條例在條文裡面特別明定行政院應設置原住民族自治政府自治政府的主席就是由各族群推敗然後委員來"},{"start":143.851,"end":170.3,"text":"推擠這個自治政府的主席行政院所設置的原住民族自治政府的主席然後送給行政院長來任命所以這個都有案例沒有什麼違憲的問題所以這個部分請大家能夠支持至於說這個任期四年這種我們現行的就有很多像中選會的主委是四年"},{"start":172.302,"end":199.072,"text":"主委包括委員也是4年公平教育委員會的主委包括委員也是4年所以都有很好的案例至於這個族群委員現在是用這個聘任聘用條例我特別修正改為無給職請大家能夠支持在質詢的時候我會做一個比較更詳細的一個說明以上謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}