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歡迎您還有政企局的高金平高副局長 歡迎您中央銀行的謝仁俊副處長 歡迎您還有國家通訊傳播委員會的法律事務處的蔡志倫蔡處長 歡迎您內政部移民署專門委員魏良齊我也專門委員"},{"start":2014.022,"end":2018.965,"text":"蔡佩岑副主任國防部法治署王炳峰副處長海洋委員會海巡署孫世亮副組長"},{"start":2042.426,"end":2056.072,"text":"個人資料保護委員會籌備處的陳錦怡陳科長還有交通部的檢證計政鄭捷元鄭檢正主計總處的檢證視察李培元國家安全局的呂處長"},{"start":2059.981,"end":2084.61,"text":"中華郵政公司的王婉如黃協理歡迎您那之所以一一的點名、唱名就是因為要確認哪些機關到場那我相信還有很多人並沒有簽名的那我想今天我們協商進行當中如果需要各機關代表來發表意見的到時候再自己報一下即時姓名那我們莊瑞雄委員也到了我們歡迎"},{"start":2086.391,"end":2107.851,"text":"好 那麼現在我們進行足案進行協商那請大家參閱協商條文對照表還有審查報告以及進覆二讀的提案等關係文書如果與會委員有修正動議或機關有建議內容請請書面印發現場進行討論那目前目前我們已經有一個修正動議"},{"start":2110.322,"end":2133.553,"text":"第一案有印發了嗎?目前已經有一個修正東西在場,他有印發給大家首先進行第一案的併案協商由我們司法法制委員會併案審查、行政院函請審議洗錢防制法修正草案還有台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案還有委員郭國文等"},{"start":2134.513,"end":2157.992,"text":"擬具的洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案以及台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案等四案還有院會禁風二讀的由委員林一錦等委員蔡雲仁等人的提案那本案已經在審查會於6月3日審查完卷審查的情形第五條及第24條保留"},{"start":2160.583,"end":2164.435,"text":"其餘均由審查結果通過那並決議院會討論前交由黨團協商"},{"start":2168.468,"end":2190.12,"text":"另外第十八次院會的會議委員林益晶等還有參與等的近乎二讀也併案協商以上六案盡於進行併案進行協商那麼為求消息起見我們是否先就保留條文的部分進行討論那委員如果對於審查會通過條文有意見我們再保留條文處理完畢後再接續進行處理請問這樣是否可行"},{"start":2191.618,"end":2211.21,"text":"那可以的話我們就請與會的機關代表跟委員我們先進行保留條文的討論因為上次在委員會的時候我在那邊發言我已經說就19條跟20條19條跟20條行度上面實際上面的修正我們有意見要保留我們有記錄嗎有記錄到這一點嗎那時候的"},{"start":2219.315,"end":2223.852,"text":"是說條文沒有保留啦就是沒有保留條文但是呢因為本來協商的時候"},{"start":2225.373,"end":2252.404,"text":"沒有保留的條文也是可以討論但是我們先就保留的條文先討論沒關係我只要確認這一點因為上次在委員會討論法案的時候我記得很清楚這對19條跟20條行政院版的刑度我們是有意見的所以呢我們就是說委員只要對於委員會通過的條文有意見一樣可以拿出來討論那我們現在先就保留的部分進行討論好不好那保留的部分先看第五條那第五條的部分"},{"start":2255.548,"end":2260.223,"text":"第五條呢就是有修正動議印好了嗎好那這個黃委員是不是要先表示意見來請黃三勝委員"},{"start":2264.83,"end":2291.878,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們其實有一個意見就是第三方支付的部分因為現在有點金管會就是有很多責任都推給別人所以我們認為說第三方支付交給庶發部是很奇怪的所以是不是也應該把它事權統一我們還是希望說能夠由金管會來統一管理那不然庶發部其實什麼事情都跟他沒關係然後他突然去管一個奇怪的第三方支付而且這些金流這些東西也不是他可以控管的以上"},{"start":2293.083,"end":2307.558,"text":"好 那麼關於黃珊珊委員的這個意見上次有多位委員都有提出啦那主要的爭點是在第五條第一項那麼到第十八款應該是第二項啦第二項"},{"start":2309.724,"end":2337.198,"text":"就是所謂的辦理融資性租賃提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員適用本法關於金融機構這規定在院版的部分那有委員認為說是不是在第二項呢應該將第三方租也納入這是黃山恩委員的意見嘛那我知道其他委員有類似的意見那當時的爭點是在說因為第五條啊第一項呢就明白表示金融機構包含下列"},{"start":2339.461,"end":2345.813,"text":"18款18款好那在第二項的部分呢也將這些"},{"start":2347.438,"end":2369.802,"text":"融資性租賃跟虛擬資產服務事業也適用金融機構也就是並同第一項的金融機構並同看待那有委員認為說第三方租應該放進類似適用金融機構的規定那這一點機關代表是不是依序表示意見是不是先請金管會表示意見再來請數法部表示意見來先請金管會好來請麥克風好我們請傳遞麥克風"},{"start":2380.338,"end":2391.969,"text":"那個我們有手持麥克風嗎會長工作人員協助一下好 謝謝主席各位委員大家好那個首先跟"},{"start":2393.952,"end":2414.608,"text":"首先跟委員報告在現行的這個洗房法裡面已經把這個第三方支付列為我們歸管的一個對象只是他沒有把它放在這個適用金融機構帳至於第三方支付的部分我們依照現在電資機構管理條例只要第三方支付日均餘額超過20億以上這個部分還是會由金管會來納管"},{"start":2415.689,"end":2443.62,"text":"那只要它對在這個日經餘額在20億以下因為整個經濟規模比較小這個部分還是由數位部來管理那以上兩點補充好 那麼剛剛進行的意見呢就是在行政院版的第五條的最後一項第四項的第五款嘛所謂的其他業務特性或交易型態亦為洗錢犯罪利用之事業或從業人員"},{"start":2445.12,"end":2470.803,"text":"那這個第五款是由行政院來指定那裡已經指定了第三方支付了但是對於這樣的指定是否足夠我想那個是不是請速發部這邊表示意見因為目前第三方支付是由速發部在做主管機關的速發部代表請主席還有各位委員以及機關代表那速費部對於第三方支付的部分就如同剛才金華會講的它是已經經過"},{"start":2473.151,"end":2485.765,"text":"已經經過行政院指定為非金融事業人員那其實也是適用洗房法相關的一些規定那如果今天把他放在第二項把他明列的話那可能會造成說第三方支部跟其他非金融事業的"},{"start":2488.702,"end":2515.618,"text":"被指定的非金融事業它適用的規定會不太一樣因為等於是只有第三方支付會適用所謂的金融機構的規定可是其他的卻沒有那這可能在適用上是有一點不平等另外我們建議就是說因為現在是用指定的是屬於比較彈性的做法未來有新的洗房對象被指定的時候也可以透過這樣的方式來處理所以如果把它名列的話就變成說會比較缺乏彈性以上是數位部的說明"},{"start":2516.223,"end":2521.452,"text":"好 謝謝那因為現在有一個修正動議在場那麼提案的委員有意見我們請吳思瑤辦事長請"},{"start":2525.501,"end":2548.379,"text":"謝謝確實上一次在主條討論的時候對於第三方支付納入那怎麼來處理大家有了很多的討論那是不是可以請那個珊珊委員可以看一下剛發下來的我們民進黨有提一個修正動議針對第五條它應當是我們把第三方支付納入我們應該放在的是第三項的第五款"},{"start":2549.62,"end":2565.818,"text":"第五款我們具體的針對這個信託級公司服務提供業為客戶準備哪些交易裡頭我們放入了提供第三方支付服務之事業或人員"},{"start":2568.1,"end":2584.772,"text":"原本是把它放在原來的第五項裡頭我們為了讓提案大家多所討論很明確地把第三方支付我們用另外一項一款把它列出來所以這個也可以聽聽"},{"start":2586.954,"end":2607.748,"text":"主責機關認為民眾黨團這樣的修正動議是不是一個好的solution我們認為這樣子是可以很清楚的定義拉出來然後又不會造成太大的主責機關之間的一些權責的漢格所以我們認為是蠻可行的是不是可以提供給珊珊委員還有國民黨的委員可以參考一下"},{"start":2608.368,"end":2626.21,"text":"好 那麼主席整理一下在場的發言的要點那關於院版條文的第五條的第一項是指金融機構有18款第二項是補充第一項是適用於金融機構的規定有這目前兩類第三項呢"},{"start":2627.188,"end":2647.942,"text":"指的是非金融機構一共列了原來列了五款那每款還有個目那目前吳小委員的意思是說那是不是把它放在第三項的非金融事業當中就剛剛訴發部所說的非金融事業有那麼多但是我們特別把它在"},{"start":2650.123,"end":2667.31,"text":"這五項當中我們增列了這五款當中增列了一款特別把它非金融機構當中增列了一個第五款提供第三方支付服務之事業或人員那原來的其他就變成了第六款也就是說把第三方支付在屬於非金融機構的部分特別的標"},{"start":2669.111,"end":2681.669,"text":"單獨標列為一款以上就是符合原來它第一項二項是屬於金融機構第三項是非金融機構但是非金融機構原來的五款我們增加一個第三方支付列為非金融機構請大家表示意見"},{"start":2685.529,"end":2713.728,"text":"稍微還有各位同仁我想我們的版本比較特別是我們希望它變成金融機構所以我們會寫在第一項各位可以看到法條上面的我們是把第三方支付放在第一項金融機構的下方也就是我剛剛講的我們認為第三方支付應該由金管會來管而不是讓一定額度以下變成是一個完全不怎麼管金流大量金流的速發部來管理所以才會放在第一項那"},{"start":2714.548,"end":2736.783,"text":"如果要放在第二項呢又回到一點就是那它的第三項的話又回到是它又是一個被指定的單位所以它又不是用金融機構的管理辦法那我們認為說這樣的管理會比較鬆散那當然現在現行是抒發不再管那我覺得長期的目標第三方支付既然有那麼多牽涉到可能被洗房拿來用的話我們希望它能夠列為"},{"start":2737.583,"end":2750.503,"text":"金融機構的概念去做管理將來不管包括現在大型大量的它其實不亞於一個銀行所以我們認為說這個可能必須要把它當成金融機構來管理這是比較正確的方向"},{"start":2752.04,"end":2771.17,"text":"我想那個分析點很明確啦就是我們的修正吳委員包括在內的修正動議是希望說仍然把它視為非金融機構但是放在第三項獨立成一個款第五款以標示對第三方支付的一個管制的對象的"},{"start":2772.403,"end":2773.804,"text":"及第六條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":2802.583,"end":2827.932,"text":"那麼由一個洗房法的作用法來規範那麼這個是不是可以討論一下因為到底第三張資料放到金管會館是要在洗房法裡面去討論因為洗房法是針對不同的事業類型我們對它的一個約束那但是對這個事業的主管機關的本質歸屬是不是要在洗房法裡面做討論這大家可以思考一下來吳世耀委員請"},{"start":2829.755,"end":2855.349,"text":"謝謝主席主席講的確實就是我非常在意的一個點我們現在在討論的是洗錢防制法它是針對主管機關所管理的相關業務如果有涉及洗錢或者是我們怎麼來預防的作為那如果現在在這個洗錢防制法裡頭要反過來去把第三方支付去改變它的主管機關"},{"start":2856.75,"end":2879.123,"text":"我覺得這個也是怪的那當然未來我知道黃珊安委員長期在財政委員會在金管會的部分跟書發部針對第三方支付到底要不要由書發部改到金管會去管這個是後續可以在財政委員的專業裡頭再做一個清楚的討論可是如果今天"},{"start":2880.58,"end":2890.109,"text":"從防制法洗錢防制法來把它倒過來我真的覺得一來時間可能也會拖到嘛對不對你要去把它的主管機關做一個大的翻轉業務從這裡到那裡它可能涉及的不是我們在條文裡頭放到哪一項這麼單純而已啦"},{"start":2898.237,"end":2926.954,"text":"所以我們是要讓它有效的精準打擊而且快速的打擊而且能夠在這次的修法就能夠來回應我們洗房的需要我是希望能夠請黃珊珊委員是我們先讓她已經入法就代表在洗錢防制法裡頭必須針對第三方支付來做必要的對應的處置那後續在主管機關那後續在其他的法規去做思考"},{"start":2927.794,"end":2939.33,"text":"否則是就會拖到也會去影響到但是黃珊珊委員的這個利益我們也充分的理解好嗎好那珊珊委員可以嗎"},{"start":2940.68,"end":2964.028,"text":"所以我想上一次我們表達得很清楚就是洗房法就應該是洗房業務所以為什麼我把洗房業務當成重要的這件事情我們在修洗房法不應該拿管理方法或主管機關來這邊我同意所以我也上次也要求金管會把虛弊管理的辦法從洗房法洗出去因為你們塞了一大堆管理辦法在這裡這才不對嘛"},{"start":2964.568,"end":2980.63,"text":"所以我也同意我們不用在洗房法裡面去增值主管機關或者是它的管理方式只是對洗房業務我覺得我們要表達立場我們認為速發部根本沒有能力管洗房業務這才是我的重點那至於將來要不要納入金管會我覺得行政院要有一個態度"},{"start":2981.852,"end":3010.314,"text":"你能不能夠讓現在的訴發部去管洗房業務我個人是打很大的問號第二個包括虛弊的金管會也沒有定出辦法然後在洗房法裡面加了一大堆監管方式這也不對所以這套法我們沒有人要擋我們希望他趕快過但是金管會必須要在這法這部法過了一兩年之內把虛擬資產業務拉出去把電子第三方支付的業務搞清楚主管單位這兩件事情必須要理清楚"},{"start":3010.894,"end":3037.905,"text":"那今天他們提出的這個修正動議我個人認為說好只要把第三方支付納入表達立法院的立場我就沒有意見但是但是一樣的主管機關還有虛弊管理這兩件事情希望金管會短時間之內在這個洗房法通過之後要立刻另訂虛擬貨幣的專法去把監管的業務從洗房法拉出去不是讓洗房法讓法務部來當金管會的保姆"},{"start":3040.489,"end":3049.872,"text":"好 那麼我想黃三三委員的意思是說我們可以考慮這個修正動議好 那至此還是要提醒一下對 對 對 那這個附帶決的部分這個有誰來擬啊"},{"start":3058.729,"end":3061.231,"text":"第二項辦理融資性租賃提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員之範圍第三項第五款指定之非金融機構"},{"start":3088.97,"end":3109.711,"text":"這時候的第五款又變成了地方商商支付了而原來的第五款它是指其他業務性質所以這裡面的第三項第五款的第五款是否要做同步的調整這個部分是不是行政院這邊是不是我們看一下各機關是不是要把那第五款改成第六款"},{"start":3111.573,"end":3135.271,"text":"這個字就是第三項我再講一遍就是修正動議從最後一頁往上看它出現了第五款跟第六款那接下來接續是第四項第四項裡面的第四行有個第三項第五款這個五應該改成六才會回到我們修正動議後的第六款就是原來的第五款"},{"start":3136.394,"end":3151.844,"text":"那我這裡是不是就簽個名那那這條呢我們留待附帶決議出來之後我們再一併通過那這個文字上的修正我就先做這樣的處理好那三上委員我就"},{"start":3154.437,"end":3163.812,"text":"我們就等附帶決議我們擬一下這個但是我還是強調我們希望洗錢防制服的主管機關應該要進金管會金管會不能偷懶競表同意"},{"start":3168.268,"end":3195.453,"text":"我同意黃珊珊委員的意見剛剛主席說禁表同意我現在先請副委員不帶決議他的不帶決議要禁表同意不好意思我把話講完現在第三方支付的主管機關是速發部這件事情是規範在什麼地方可不可以請行政院說明一下我的意思是他的法規基礎第三方支付的法規他的主管機關是速發部的法規基礎是什麼"},{"start":3198.308,"end":3215.375,"text":"因為你們剛剛一直主張嘛你們基本上面在講的是在洗款法這個作用法裡面不要去變更它的主管機關的屬性嘛那到我現在的問題是第三項支付它的主管機關是速發布這件事情到底規範在哪裡來 那個速發布代表能不能說明一下來 請"},{"start":3220.891,"end":3248.107,"text":"報告主席還有那個黃委員這個其實第三方支付後來是本來是在經濟部商業司所主管然後因為隨著業務那抒發部的成立隨著業務移波在行政院協調然後由數位發展部擔任第三方支付的主管機關沒有啊所以嘛我就具體的講你所謂透過協調的方式讓第三方支付的主管機關是抒發部這件事情完全沒有法律或法規命令的基礎我這樣的說明對嗎"},{"start":3254.052,"end":3274.162,"text":"對 確實是沒有 因為第三方支付沒有專法啦所以他 那如果今天你們只是透過協調的方式既沒有法律 也沒有法規命令然後就可以協調第三方支付是給速發部管那如果今天立法院做一個決議請你們再協調回去給警管會管有沒有困難來 那個吳世耀委員請"},{"start":3279.131,"end":3307.302,"text":"我覺得樹發部的同仁你的說法是有點問題我們在面對任何的組織修訂尤其像樹發部它是新的部會的時候它確實會有樹發部的組織條例嘛 對不對那裡頭會分你們分哪些司分哪些單位這個都會有入法但是對於任何的各個司所管轄的業務裡頭不會細緻到都去入法規範"},{"start":3309.642,"end":3334.221,"text":"所以你所說的是協調好像是隨便喬一喬就變成你我覺得這我是不接受的這也不是過去我們在處理這麼多新生組織包括過去在教育文化委員會我們的這個國科會變成科技部然後又修回國科會我們在條例上面會處理的是它設哪些司哪些處然後所轄哪些業務句號"},{"start":3335.822,"end":3352.349,"text":"他不會細緻到第三方支付也好或是什麼新的什麼方式都把它入法我覺得這在實務上有困難喔對不對我們大家想看看在公部門怎麼可能會細到每一個東西都是用法來規定是誰管"},{"start":3353.482,"end":3369.836,"text":"但這不是組織法去具戲謎把每一個業務都列出來了所以我對於你的講法本來在做新的組織的調派的時候就會透過哪些業務專業上、人力上會移撥給誰"},{"start":3373.09,"end":3398.704,"text":"這是合宜的處理所以你剛剛的回答說好像是協調然後就這樣隨便東丟一個西丟一個這樣會有誤導這會有誤導這是一個組織任務的調派尤其述發部是一個新的部會它承接了不同部會的任務而經濟部商業司本來管的第三方支付的一波就到述發部來接手"},{"start":3399.997,"end":3414.632,"text":"我沒有挑戰其他委員建議說我們未來對於第三方支付的主管機關是可以來檢視但是你的說法我覺得要修正它絕對不是因為很隨便被協調業務就這樣這個說法很不精確"},{"start":3419.108,"end":3440.196,"text":"過去的每一個組織嚴格任務的條派大概都是這樣的方式它不是例外特別輕易的、隨便的、粗糙的去做處置所以呢在書發部裡面的數位產業的這個項目裡頭我現在看到一個法規名稱第三方支付服務業"},{"start":3441.716,"end":3465.811,"text":"對不起第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法他有這樣一個辦法對不對有這樣一個辦法裡頭就有很清楚的寫到他屬於行政院下的數位發展部的數位產業幕裡頭來執行那這一個辦法裡面我看有幾個條文喔你有剛剛在找條文這總共有"},{"start":3467.102,"end":3482.37,"text":"我看十幾二十個總共有16個條文所以他是有辦法在管理這個業務的處置不是沒有所以我覺得他的回答不精確怎麼會是用協調方式講話不能這樣他有辦法的容我這樣做一個整理啦其實很多的新興行為新興事業並不一定會在各"},{"start":3491.977,"end":3509.27,"text":"主管機關的組織法裡面所明定啦金管會叫做金融就是他管金融嘛所以在本條的第一項他就寫金融機構那既然是金融機構一定是金管會所管理而在他原來的第一項的第十八款"},{"start":3511.65,"end":3527.795,"text":"他還是寫其他經目的事業主管機關指定是金融機構那表示說這裡的洗錢防制法所謂的金融機構原則上是以金管會所管理的金融機構為主但是加了一個18款其他"},{"start":3528.795,"end":3541.72,"text":"被目的事業來指定的那這裡的目的事業主管機關到底所指為何金融機構的主管機關一定是金管會那請問還有其他目的事業主管機關指定的金融機構嗎比如說農業金庫"},{"start":3546.155,"end":3566.217,"text":"OK 好那再來第二項他這裡寫的融資性租賃以及虛擬貨幣服務提供者相信也不在金管會原來法規裡面所名列的金融機構當中但是金管會已經把它納入管理但是他"},{"start":3567.279,"end":3590.12,"text":"並非他可能還沒有被金管委員認定是金融機構他只是納入金管委員所管理所以他這裡的第二項特別舉名說是適用本法關於金融機構之規定所以這裡面你又有一個空間第一項就是金融機構第一項的金融機構還包括第十八款其他指定的第二項是不是金融機構但是適用金融機構的規定"},{"start":3591.741,"end":3618.998,"text":"接下來第三項才是指非金融事業或人員而當中列了原來的第五款他是說其他因為我們不曉得要舉輕以民眾還是舉重以民輕總而言之修正動議就是決定將第三方支付的也特別標舉在非金融機構當中的第五款獨立成一款表示對他的重視程度至於我們在洗錢防制法這樣的一個標誌"},{"start":3620.82,"end":3646.14,"text":"是不是反向可以去指定他的主管機關我覺得是不是今天我們在討論洗房法的重點的時候是希望他納入洗房的規範範圍而且被標舉出來那剛剛黃珊珊委員所提到的透過附帶決議希望未來第三方之五由於他的性質特殊應該等同於類同於前面兩項的融資性租賃或者是說這個"},{"start":3650.687,"end":3675.858,"text":"融資性租賃以及虛擬資產這樣的一個性質也能夠為金管會所納管那我們是要在第二項把它用這樣的方式指定由金管會來管理還是放在第五款還是放在非金融機構但是未來如果可以納管到金管會的管理下範圍內他也不受這個拘束啦"},{"start":3676.826,"end":3686.079,"text":"我們不能說我們洗房法放在第五款以後就盡管不能管但是我們把第三方是標舉出來表示很重要不管目前誰在管他都要嚴格的受到"},{"start":3687.068,"end":3708.236,"text":"洗錢防制的高規格對待這是為什麼我們試著用修正動議來解決這個歧異的問題那是我幹財黨委員能夠考量我們在這裡可以預告一下大家已經收到下週的議程下週我已經排收四就這第三方之物也涵蓋在內就洗錢防制法"},{"start":3709.396,"end":3732.601,"text":"規範下具有洗房防制對象他在新興行業裡面的風險那也跟山上委員說明就是就是要來大家來好好討論類似像第三方支付這樣子在洗房法規範下有洗完房子對象具有高風險的新興事業我們怎麼去因應目的是法通過了但是呢要有做法"},{"start":3733.021,"end":3742.503,"text":"那這個做法呢我把它排在下周四的專題報告看是否這樣子可以來補大家的疑慮或是認為有不足的地方好不好"},{"start":3748.809,"end":3761.778,"text":"是否容我第五條我先預告說以修正動議的方式來通過但是我們留待附帶決議出來之後一併處理那我們現在進行第24條24條有修正動議嗎 沒有"},{"start":3775.083,"end":3787.552,"text":"來24條24條就是指公務員洩漏或交付的一些罰則的規定一共有兩項那請問各位委員的看法有沒有24條就是保密義務的免責規定啦"},{"start":3802.853,"end":3829.825,"text":"因為民眾黨的第三位委員這個主要是我們希望讓這些銀行的從業人員他在這個互相提供資料的時候能夠不要有受到這個保密責任的責任的追究所以希望這樣處理但好像法務部這邊是有另外的說法是說在打架司法裡面其實已經有方開這個門那這個是不是要在審防法裡面是不是要請他們先做說明"},{"start":3831.596,"end":3836.985,"text":"好 那麼法務部有沒有補充因為剛剛三三委員說的你們再補充一下 謝謝來黃政長"},{"start":3840.933,"end":3868.903,"text":"各位報告有關於這個洗房的基於洗房的目的而交付相關的資料的部分事實上他的這個保持保持秘密的義務的免除我們現在現行法第十條第二項其次就明文免除他因為洗房的目的而交付相關的申報資料的義務免除他的責任了四條第二項已經明文規定所以這這這條是在處理二四條在處理罰則的部分所以不用再重複規定"},{"start":3870.679,"end":3880.182,"text":"對,第四條已經有請問我們24條照行政院提案通過,OK嗎?來,吳委員我對一下條文"},{"start":3890.851,"end":3908.841,"text":"因為沒有頁碼啦 就是這一本的沒有問題好 那麼本條按照行政院提案通過好 那我們再回過來看第五條的附帶決議是否有擬具了好 那麼我們往下走好不好附帶決議回來之後我們再回過頭來把它確認好 下一位"},{"start":3913.183,"end":3935.891,"text":"好 那剛剛因為那個上次沒有保留的還是有委員有對已通過的條文要來表示意見我們請19條 20條請來 黃委員 黃總召19條的部分上次在委員會事上已經表達過了目前現行法的規定針對洗錢的行為是7年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":3937.318,"end":3953.54,"text":"那行政院的版本把它劃分成兩個區間一個區間是沒有達一億是六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑然後一億以上是一年以上七年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":3954.724,"end":3980.766,"text":"那行政院的版本事實上跟現行法所規範的刑度相比他論其實際論其實際並沒有針對大家目前所深惡痛絕的洗錢行為實際上面去調高他的罰則反而你如果細緻的去看區分兩個類別他對於以下的金額相對而言是在減輕他的罰則"},{"start":3982.928,"end":4011.732,"text":"因此台灣民眾黨黨團我們所提出來的案子是針對一億以下的你要把它降低但針對如果是到一億以上的我們認為應該要再調高它的刑罰到三年以上十年以下有期徒刑這個部分整個方向上面跟我們在有關於這一次所提出來的專法"},{"start":4013.007,"end":4027.387,"text":"這次所提出來的專法裡面刑度兩者之間我們認為目前不管是詐欺的行為還是洗錢的行為在整體上面對於惡性特別重大"},{"start":4028.228,"end":4053.909,"text":"他洗錢的金額或詐欺的金額特別高的部分應該要加重處罰的方向是相互契合的因此我們對於行政院所這一次提出來第19條對應以前本來的第14條的規定它實質上面反而是在調降刑度的這件事情我們是沒有辦法同意的"},{"start":4056.223,"end":4072.063,"text":"好 那麼主席這邊先整理一下上次的爭點上次那個黃總召有提到過那目前台灣民眾黨的黨團的版本他大概分成兩個部分第一個他先以六個月以上五年以下五百萬以下的罰金作為一個範疇"},{"start":4073.965,"end":4096.707,"text":"然後呢在超過特定犯罪所得一億元以上的他提高到三年以上十年以下而且可以罰五千萬的罰金大概分成兩個部分先把一般的寫在前面加重的寫在後面金額就是以一億來規範那行政院的版本呢他剛好反過來寫他是寫一年以上七年以下可以罰一億以下"},{"start":4097.688,"end":4116.719,"text":"但是如果低於未達一億元的就是六個月以上五年以下可以罰五千萬那看起來呢在一億元這個金額以下的行政院版呢是感覺上比較重啦重的地方同樣是六個月以上五年以下但是呢行政院版是可以罰五千萬"},{"start":4118.62,"end":4135.3,"text":"台民黨版是罰五百萬看起來在一億元以下的是罰金上的差別但是在一億元以上的部分台民黨的是一年三年以上十年以下行政院版是一年以上七年以下"},{"start":4136.081,"end":4164.319,"text":"那罰金的部分行政院比較重可以罰到一億那民眾黨的部分是罰五千萬但是呢這裡面還有第三個部分就是細微的差別文字的描述行政院寫的是其洗錢之財務或財產上之利益那那個民眾黨團的是寫特定犯罪所得這兩者在文字描述上對應的還是有些差別是不是請法務部就這個部分來以說明"},{"start":4167.333,"end":4195.179,"text":"跟主席還有各位委員報告就這個民眾黨所提議的要加重洗錢的刑責的部分這本部完全的贊同那只是刑責要加重到著重這涉及到洗錢犯罪它本身事實上它所保護的法益到底是什麼它必須要跟原來的前置犯罪所保護的法益必須要做切割的處理它畢竟親愛的是一個金流的法益所以它的刑度它畢竟要有一個極限"},{"start":4195.879,"end":4218.309,"text":"不可以跟這一個原來的那個前置犯罪刑度差距過大所以說我們基本上基調上我們是贊成提高的但是它提高到有一定的幅度所以在我們這個修正草案裡面我們事實上就這個洗錢的刑度我們從設了一個樓地板的規定原來是七年以下我們現在訂到一年以上七年以下"},{"start":4218.809,"end":4220.49,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":4236.759,"end":4260.197,"text":"另外就是另外有一點事實上我們做的一個文字上不同的處理我們原來的這個洗錢是用犯罪所得去做標的我們現在標的是用洗錢的金額做標的這其實差非常的多犯罪所得也許只有一千萬他去混同到一起洗錢之後他把它加入他正常的金流九千萬"},{"start":4262.377,"end":4282.394,"text":"他的洗錢金額就超過一億了這時候就可以直接進入我們新修正的重罪的規定去做所以這樣子的處理之後他其實事實上也達到實質上加重的目的那以上的說明跟委員報告我進一步來追問那個委員要追問嘛請"},{"start":4284.318,"end":4313.075,"text":"所以這樣聽起來就刑度的加重我們已經從原本的七年以下已經我們是一年以上七年以下嘛 對不對第二個我覺得剛剛那個重點很清楚就是犯罪所得我們是比犯罪所得更嚴格的把洗錢的財務跟財產上之利益就是它之前操作的那個就也是一種加重然後還有另外一個就是對於一億以下的那一類行政院院板罰五千"},{"start":4313.996,"end":4329.466,"text":"然後民眾版罰500所以我們也是比較重所以從這三個面向我基本上是同意剛剛次長說的這樣子的處置都是朝更加重的方式來處理我是可以接受這個政院的版本好 黃委員可以這樣嗎"},{"start":4332.793,"end":4353.522,"text":"第一個部分我再說明一次這邊在行動上面的調整是有鑒於目前上議員的洗錢大戶他事實上所造成的危害是特別的嚴重我必須要強調這個不是在抓小蝦米這個是在抓上面最大的"},{"start":4354.696,"end":4377.265,"text":"上面最大的才會有上億元洗錢的金額所以我說了這一邊在行度上面的調整跟我們在內政委員會所提出來的修正動議的打詐專法彼此之間是相配合的因為在內政委員會那邊的打詐專法的時候行政院的版本本來是只有1000萬以上他們要加重處罰"},{"start":4378.385,"end":4402.272,"text":"但是我在那邊質詢的時候連內政部的部長都表示事實上針對一億以上的那個積蓄他要再拉高所以我們在整體行動上面的設計在洗錢剛剛次長所講的沒有錯他是一個前置犯罪但是我們針對有關於詐欺以及跟詐欺的這個行為相結合的特殊犯罪手法"},{"start":4403.092,"end":4422.035,"text":"彼此之間以及他的犯罪受損實際上面的金額相結合我們在這邊做了這樣的設計第二個部分當初在擬條文的時候的確在條文的設計上面的確是參考政交法的規定所以那個時候才會寫特定犯罪所得"},{"start":4422.335,"end":4444.53,"text":"但我覺得剛剛次長所講的是有道理的所以針對第14條的部分我們會再提出修正動議再提出修正動議把剛剛次長所講的那個概念就有關於洗錢的財務或財產上面的利益沒有達到 或者是"},{"start":4445.31,"end":4470.9,"text":"按照我們的寫法就應該是正面表述洗錢的財務或財產上的利益有達到1億元以上的話那維持我們自己本來刑度的部分至於說就罰金刑的部分要並同我們在修正動議的時候隨著目前法務部或是行政院他們的意見再把罰金刑一併提高這件事情我們也認同"},{"start":4473.4,"end":4496.983,"text":"聽起來目前行政院版跟民眾黨團大概行政院的意見大概都被接納了就是差在說那個後來放寬到不是只有犯罪所得喔也不是只有財產上的利用或者是包括洗錢的財務金額高達一億的就會進入到那個比較高刑度的寒色範圍那行政院的高刑度是一年以上七年以下"},{"start":4497.663,"end":4515.908,"text":"台民黨的刑度是三年以上十年以下所以聽起來黃總召的意思都是從重罰金比行政院輕的就調高從五百變成五千萬五千萬變成一億那一億元本來是屬於犯罪所得這個比較嚴格是只要犯罪所得"},{"start":4516.368,"end":4529.508,"text":"行政院板已經放寬到經手洗錢的財務達一億元以上的就要適用較高的處罰只是這個較高處罰的刑度到底要一年以上七年以下還是三年以上十年以下這個請市長表示意見"},{"start":4530.733,"end":4553.487,"text":"這邊也跟黃總召說明一下我們這條它是有意這樣子立法的模式它跟我們金融企業法的立法模式故意採不一樣模式金融企業法的模式是原則上輕罪超過一億才另外重罪所以實務上一直在爭執到底有沒有超過一億所以我們為了解決困難顛倒過來立法原則上你超過一億你要降下來你要舉證"},{"start":4554.628,"end":4574.177,"text":"你要舉證 故意採一個舉證責任的一個導致的狀態讓這種犯罪容易達到一億以上要不然現在金融七法 實際上都一直在爭執到底有沒有超過一億發揮更審 科學更審 更來更去 更不完我們要解決這個困境才用這種立法導致的模式來立法以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":4575.818,"end":4584.992,"text":"可以吧 這樣可以吧我是覺得還有因為沒有啦 我這樣講好了啦就是當你這樣反過來寫的時候在刑事審判實務上"},{"start":4586.957,"end":4609.498,"text":"到最後還是要去確定不管你講的是說特定犯罪所的或者是不法利益的金額或者是在這邊所用的詞洗錢的財務或財產上的利益因為在我國目前法院的事實審認定當中你有沒有禁審理之就是禁審理跟"},{"start":4611.219,"end":4636.424,"text":"指責去救民那個事實其實那個是常常在最高法院跟高等法院上上下下的事情當然你們現在說透過你這樣反過來寫的方式會導致所謂的舉證責任的導致是不是會產生這樣的效果我必須要老實講我是抱持著疑問的但沒有關係我今天堅持的只有"},{"start":4637.792,"end":4662.764,"text":"寫的方式以上就寫你要把這文改本文跟但書兩者之間你要這樣子改我沒意見但是針對議員以上的洗錢大戶要加重刑罰的這件事情要加重刑罰這件事情而不是只有停留在現在你本來七年以下有期徒刑只增加了一個最低的法定本刑是一年以上我認為這個遠遠不夠所以"},{"start":4665.885,"end":4684.063,"text":"法務部剛剛所提供的意見我們會採納我們會採納那這一條我建議大家在刑度上面有根本上面的分歧就還是先保留我們等到下一個階段院長協商的時候會再斟酌法務部的意見提出我們的修正動議"},{"start":4686.24,"end":4713.269,"text":"好 那我想因為表達的意見很清楚了啦這一題我們就保留啦那麼這條保留因為行路上要三年以上十年以下跟一年以上七年以下這個沒有辦法達到一致的意見那行政院版是一年以上七年以下那民眾黨版是三年以上十年以下我再協調一下吧這個為了這一條保留你要不要再說明再說服一下黃總召"},{"start":4719.071,"end":4735.047,"text":"我再跟委員報告一下我再次強調我們這個洗錢犯罪它處罰的是金流不是那個前置犯罪那個犯罪前置犯罪我們洗錢罪前置犯罪有很多六個月以上的犯罪甚至列舉的犯罪已經很輕的犯罪"},{"start":4735.928,"end":4762.691,"text":"他的洗錢會達到三年到十年這會處到一個非常失衡他的權制犯罪是非常輕的犯罪後面的犯罪所得卻處到三到十年所以說他這個刑責不可以提高到這種三到十年因為一到七年再往上提就是三到十年了那個刑度已經超過我們所有的法律的平衡的觀點了我跟總召"},{"start":4764.69,"end":4791.857,"text":"是不是請國商總召可以因為我真的覺得那個太失衡了可不可能我再說明一下前次的犯罪後面洗錢的行為我們現在在處理的現在在處理的不是一般的洗錢是超過上億元的就上億元的部分你們就現在的法定刑七年以下你只加了一個樓地板加一年以上有期徒刑我覺得對於我們現在"},{"start":4794.298,"end":4821.328,"text":"在整個詐欺的犯罪當中裡面扮演非常重要關鍵角色會導致不管是詐欺的追溯上或是在首腦的棄拿上甚至日後不法犯罪所得的取回上面會產生最嚴重阻礙的其實就是這種大額洗錢的金額我再強調一次上億元的金額絕對不是去罰車手啦"},{"start":4823.069,"end":4838.031,"text":"絕對不是去罰那些小羅羅全部都是罰這些洗錢集團上面最大的首腦所以我們才會要求針對在洗錢上億以上的金額去加重法定性第二個部分"},{"start":4838.772,"end":4867.771,"text":"就有關於洗錢防制的部分如同為什麼我們行政院一直在說這是打詐是法這是打詐是法因為這個部分的處理跟在內政委員會裡面那邊的打詐專法我們針對詐欺行為的太陽針對犯罪的所得事實上都有形度彼此之間相互配合的問題所以你說你要去跟在打詐專法那一邊"},{"start":4869.472,"end":4894.482,"text":"詐欺犯罪詐欺犯罪他按照不同的金額的刑度去相協調相契合這件事情我是認同的但問題是什麼問題是我們現在在打詐專法那邊針對刑度的部分事實上行政院所提出來的版本跟我們在內政委員會裡面所提出來的"},{"start":4896.761,"end":4923.741,"text":"相對應的修正的部分就不一樣了所以我才會建議說法務部的聲音我們聽到了但這一條請保留下來因為到時候要協商的時候要比法定型的時候一定是我們司法法制委員會所處理的洗錢防制法跟內政委員會所處理的打詐專法那個部分在一億以上罰則的調整上彼此之間怎麼相契合"},{"start":4924.588,"end":4943.478,"text":"而不是在這邊把它割離開來做處理以上說明我了解我了解因為法務部的看法還有那個黃總召民眾黨的意見到底在犯罪實務上我去偷竊不法犯罪所得後面如果有人幫我洗我這個犯罪所能洗白我才能運用"},{"start":4944.851,"end":4960.405,"text":"洗錢的金額可能遠大於前面犯罪的人的小貓小狗的偷竊但是因為後面有這個洗錢的行為才注意去支撐前面的犯罪得以把所得拿來做支配使用所以某個定義上黃總召認為說那些專門幫人家洗錢為業者"},{"start":4965.109,"end":4985.208,"text":"他雖然不是從事前端的犯罪但是他所為惡的程度恐怕是滋長著這些前端的小比的這些詐欺、偷竊、這些不法行為我想觀念上是的確有不太一樣的地方我們是不是請司法院對刑度上的失衡的部分有沒有失衡的部分表示意見"},{"start":4989.921,"end":5011.113,"text":"謝謝委員那有關於刑度的部分我們覺得那前面的前置犯罪跟後面的洗錢的部分應該要做一個相關評論就我比較跟訪問部的立場是比較一次的那另外如果把它調成三年以上的話會涉及到強制辯護的部分那個又是另外一個要討論的課題這次部分我就做基本的說明以上"},{"start":5014.225,"end":5042.496,"text":"請問那個黃總召司法你還是覺得要把行動這樣子好那我想我是這樣子啦我是覺得聽起來都有他的道理啦到底前置犯罪跟後面的洗錢在現在的社會形態上哪一種才是元兇有人認為就是有後面那個大筆的專業洗錢者才能讓前面的這些小規模的犯罪取得所得得以稅刑讓他們可以得以支配但是在司法實務上也有你們在一些未來訴訟上"},{"start":5043.556,"end":5057.627,"text":"所進行運營到困難那這點我們就留待要交院會的時候院長的寫實還是我們來律師這個倒也不是什麼對跟錯啦這個聽起來有時候你都舉那個極端的例子"},{"start":5058.619,"end":5064.862,"text":"黃某欣我們兩個來做詐騙集團我們要騙10億剛好吳思瑤你去洗他賺一輸了我們兩個去騙的你再逼我們兩個去擋這確實也很奇怪這確實也很奇怪我是覺得這個大家在認定上有一些基本上想像的差異這個我們就留待後續的協商那第20條是不是黃總召這邊也有意見"},{"start":5087.011,"end":5112.617,"text":"沒有 第二十條一樣 它會牽涉到一併行度上面的處理那跟十九條跟二十條兩條之間是連動所以我是去建議說這兩條就一併保留我們到時候針對我們所對應本來十五條的部分也會再提我們的修正動議好 所以那個民眾黨的部分一個是六個月以上五年以下這個部分是一樣的沒"},{"start":5114.929,"end":5140.506,"text":"因為完形度都一樣啊只是說民眾黨的部分是罰金是五百萬以下行政院版是五千萬以下所以十五條因為它並沒有分成兩個層次耶而且它的定的罰金比民眾黨的還重那它所描述的方式也是符合前面十九條行政院版它的描述方式這個部分"},{"start":5141.718,"end":5159.295,"text":"我們若是就行路討論好像是在19條20條有行路上的差別嗎沒有 它就裡面實際上面寫的上面的內容在具體的款項上面跟他們對應起來的行為太陽也有不一致"},{"start":5161.443,"end":5178.012,"text":"我們看一下 20條行政院版的部分收受持有或使用之財物或財產上利益有下列情形之一沒有合法來源6個月以上5年以下並科5000萬罰金好那底下就1、2、3有三款"},{"start":5178.82,"end":5204.025,"text":"那民眾黨的第十五條呢他是上一樣前端是一樣收受持有或使用是財務或財產上利益得命本人這個就多了這個部分要叫他就來源提出說明那如果沒有辦法的話就是六個月以上五年以下但是罰金是五百萬那底下呢有一二三四五六"},{"start":5205.424,"end":5211.725,"text":"六款表達的什麼方式就只有六款法務部要不要說明一下跟台民黨的差異"},{"start":5216.651,"end":5243.792,"text":"跟總召跟委員報告我們第20條就是我們台南原來15條其實它是一個你洗錢你的洗錢金額裡面有無正當來源的話另外要有一些客觀的表徵我們才論以這個特殊的洗錢所以這我們要特別的小心我們不會因為某個人的帳戶裡面有錢就要論以他特殊的洗錢所以我們列了這個三款的事由"},{"start":5244.632,"end":5267.417,"text":"做一個比較限縮的客觀的表徵當然我們台聯黨列了更多的表徵這涉及到一個財產無合理來源的懷疑跟客觀表徵的限縮的一個權衡所以我們法務部後來權衡這兩者之後我們用院版的第20條做一個比較限縮的客觀表徵來做一個立法上的處理"},{"start":5269.411,"end":5292.978,"text":"好 那麼我想法務部說明說這個20條跟前面19條其實差別不是在跟19條連動是20條跟台灣民眾黨15條在客觀表徵的描述上有些差異啦當然行政院版的罰的部分五千萬是比五百萬重啦但是呢要怎麼樣去認定的這些客觀表徵定的比較限縮那請問羅委員有沒有沒意見兩位黃委員"},{"start":5306.682,"end":5327.794,"text":"所以來黃總長我們的意見還是一樣就秦寶仁因為事實上啊剛剛我有請教山山委員啊這個事實上是110年的時候你們的布板嘛所以你們後來到行政院的時候再就再把他的範圍啦再做線再把他的範圍再做線來說"},{"start":5331.659,"end":5355.455,"text":"各位報告事實上原來這個佈板是公告後因為外界有些疑慮認為這個設成範圍過廣包括民間思考會、律師界也好你這設成過廣會亂及無辜因為這是一個你無合理來源你就要去錄一個特殊洗錢嘛所以後來再次我們召開各界廣大意見之後把這個更narrow一點所以才會有現在的願版大概是這樣"},{"start":5366.487,"end":5367.929,"text":"是否可以在"},{"start":5369.063,"end":5390.809,"text":"爭取一下民眾黨的委員我們當時提這個佈板就是因為也想尊重這個法務部他們在執法上面的態度這也是一個那第二個就是說你們今天限縮了那有一些比如說裡面可能還是有問題的部分是不是也可以含涉到你現在的範圍內"},{"start":5392.649,"end":5409.689,"text":"還是哪一些會漏掉對,就是我覺得還是說明清楚如果你要回到這邊啊你刪掉這條的原因是什麼這條會濫殺無辜還是這條會無限上綱那每一項我覺得是不是都請法務部做個說明比較好"},{"start":5412.436,"end":5432.556,"text":"華府現在有辦法做說明嗎我跟在場委員商量一下因為我們今天在洗方法上有三個案洗方法目前大概第五條、第二十四條都OK那第十九條那個刑度的問題留待院會前去協商那如果第十二條能夠有合理的處理我們只要處理一個刑度十九條的刑度就好了"},{"start":5433.337,"end":5454.952,"text":"那大家在思考的我先借來跳來宣讀一下附帶覺得的部分剛剛幾位委員看過了按由數位發展部應於本法修正通過後兩年內會商金融監督管理委員會提出第三方支付服務業之管理規則並共同於"},{"start":5458.274,"end":5479.865,"text":"六個月內就第三方支付服務業之洗錢防制相關監管業務移轉至金融監督管理委員會進行研議提出書面報告送交立法院好 這個負債局的內容就是要去研議怎麼樣把這個洗錢防制業務移給金管會"},{"start":5481.966,"end":5500.345,"text":"但是速發部要在本法通過的兩年內跟金管會來提出一個第三方支付服務業的管理規則大概是這樣的附帶決議內容請問我們速發部跟金管會有沒有拿到了附帶決議有我先等一下金管會OK嗎"},{"start":5502.674,"end":5527.624,"text":"鄭大伯你書畫簿呢?好 那我們這個附帶決議剛剛看過了那我們的第五條就按照協商內容通過然後並附帶決議好不好那現在我們就第五條、第24條一個是按協商修正動議的內容協商內容通過24條照行政院提案通過第19條保留第20條的部分請法務部說明"},{"start":5529.083,"end":5558.113,"text":"這邊也跟黃珊珊委員報告原來民眾黨所提的4563款事實上我們現在把它寫到我們的第三款了只是它的描述方式不一樣我們用規避第八條、第十條至第十三條所定的洗錢程序把它全部抓到那邊去了所以它基本上跟民眾黨所提的內容是不會差太多的他只把全部都拿過去了"},{"start":5559.787,"end":5560.988,"text":"黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員"},{"start":5587.881,"end":5611.12,"text":"我想詢問一下法務部因為我看一下公務員財產來源不明罪的那個處罰那他沒有所謂的那個刑期的地板嘛那但他天花板是五年以下然後居或科或病科不明財產來源額度以下的罰金我是不知道這個條文是韓社是規範對象是"},{"start":5615.888,"end":5637.645,"text":"是全部的 《貪污罪條例》嗎 《貪污罪條例》第六條之一嗎我講說第20條啊 第20條你 財產來源不明的這個部分羅偉的意思啦 是 在公務人員財產來源不明的行路是這樣然後現在這個概念設成到一般民眾的是這樣是不是會失衡 羅偉的意思是這樣 對啊"},{"start":5639.728,"end":5665.097,"text":"這樣子,你有沒有聽懂?有阿吼對,那我是覺得...他的...他的要...我們公文...我們《通修條例》裡面六條之一他的要件跟這邊差很多完全不一樣他的要件跟這邊差...差...差非常的多收受持有或使用財務或財務上利益我...我跟你講我是...我是對一般民眾就到這個刑度齁到這種處罰我是有疑慮的啦就這麼簡單啦"},{"start":5666.792,"end":5693.824,"text":"太輕還是太重太重太重你說公務員員我覺得參議員不明我覺得是該規範了但是你說比例性的問題我知道我初步感覺有點餘地我要先還是要你那是20條嗎對對對20條因為他不知道那個是不法屬的這是沒有合理的你的控理就大概是這樣所以所以那個志強委員來 委員請"},{"start":5695.768,"end":5718.981,"text":"所以你說的是民眾黨的第一款嘛對不對二十條的第一項民眾黨的也是第一項第十五條第一項那個我想剛羅委員是說如果以公務人員洗錢的話財產來源不明呢的刑度跟一般民眾洗財產來源不明如果有財產不明的話刑度上好像"},{"start":5719.921,"end":5748.79,"text":"公務員的沒有中很多啦現在行政院的二十條已經拿掉這個啦不會不會現在是這樣子現在是來讓次長解釋我跟盧委員報告啦我們的當初這條例的六條之一的公務員財產來源不明罪他只是你公務員只要在特定表證你無法合理的說明沒有辦法合理說明本身就可能構成犯罪但是我們這個我們這二十條這邊除了來源不明你還具有其他的客觀行為的表證我剛才提到的一到三款這些表證"},{"start":5749.91,"end":5760.352,"text":"他其實已經是進一步的客觀上已經接近於洗錢的行為了對 他已經接近於洗錢行為跟我們的當初的六條之一不一樣好 那我們二十條已經討論完了啦因為上次我們審查會就已經通過了啦好 那我現在開始來就通過 那我們就"},{"start":5781.365,"end":5782.346,"text":"第五條照協商內容通過降落附件"},{"start":5791.802,"end":5819.865,"text":"第十九條保留送院會處理第二十四條照行政院提案通過其餘均照審查會審查結果通過新增附帶券一項降入附件好 那這樣我們就洗房法就到這裡告一段落好 謝謝那跟洗房法有關下面我們就是課偵法和通保法那跟以下兩個協商案件無關的部會機關代表我們就可以先請休息離席"},{"start":5828.001,"end":5857.401,"text":"委員換位 珊珊委員珊珊稍待議事人員將協商結論書面製作完成後及交由委員簽名那第一案的部分先請那個第一案的部分在哪裡好 那請委員稍等一下那我們開始進行下一案"},{"start":5874.71,"end":5876.532,"text":"好我先見我先見好了沒關係啦好來三三"},{"start":5897.677,"end":5921.749,"text":"好來我們接著進行第二案併案協商那麼司法法制委員會審查行政院函請審議科技偵查及保障法草案案及院會禁錄二讀委員蔡宇等委員林怡瑾等提案那本案審查會前於6月5日審查完略審查情形名稱第一條至第11條均照行政院提案通過並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商令院會第18次會議將委員蔡宇等"},{"start":5927.412,"end":5943.662,"text":"提案禁負二讀第十九次會議再將委員林井等提案禁負二讀與相關提案併案協商以上共計三案與今日併案進行協商那麼現在呢請在與會的委員表示意見來那個有好那請"},{"start":5949.813,"end":5957.694,"text":"那個主席我們上次在委員會討論的時候我記得我們大家有共識啊就柯真法的部分到時候是要跟刑訴一起處理啊"},{"start":5961.182,"end":5983.679,"text":"我們那個時候我記得大家獲制的共識是這個樣子所以我是建議說今天今天就柯真法的部分那看你跟吳宗憲委員因為就刑訴的部分應該是中歐國民黨黨團要負責協商那是不是由民進黨的召委跟中歐國民黨的召委你們去商量"},{"start":5984.58,"end":5998.675,"text":"看你們兩個誰要主持兩個案子併案協商還是兩個召委都同意就直接丟給院長那邊由院長召集協商因為我記得那天討論的時候大家的共識是很清楚的這兩個法案是要一起來協商處理的"},{"start":5999.775,"end":6029.395,"text":"但是黃總要說明一下因為我們有一個修正動議的方式會有體力上的一個選擇問題那這樣好不好我先把先我們把這個修正動議先給委員站委員看然後我們先處理通保法因為通保法處理完之後我們再來看一看課真法跟刑訴法在體力上的選擇因為因應這個修正動議如果大家覺得這個修正動議有必要支持的話那我們可能再來處理好不好我們先處理通保法"},{"start":6035.837,"end":6054.344,"text":"我們第二案暫保留繼續進行第三案併案協商司法及法制委員會併案審查 行政院函請審議及台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案》等二案及院會經負二讀委員01等提案"},{"start":6055.144,"end":6065.897,"text":"本案審查會前於6月6日審查完畢審查情形第五條、第六條、第十一條之一及第31條保留其餘均由審查結果通過並決議院會討論前須交由黨團協商另院會第18次會議將委員林一卿等"},{"start":6073.776,"end":6100.946,"text":"提案近乎二讀與相關提案併案協商以上共計三案於今日併案進行協商那麼現在先請與會機關代表針對保留條文部分提出說明並請出席委員討論那麼剛剛的那個就請會場工作人員將柯政法的部分的修正動議先發給大家參考那我們接下來請機關代表就保留條文的部分開始表示意見保留的先是第五條"},{"start":6106.5,"end":6128.806,"text":"來主席我建議可不可以我先說明一下修正動議然後他們就一併來回答你是說剛剛的通報通報法好通報法也有修正動議是吧就直接他們一次回應看我們的修正動議是不是接受那因為現在通報法有兩個修正動議在場那麼我們是不是就分別就兩個動議來做說明那先請吳世耀委員做說明再請民眾黨"},{"start":6131.127,"end":6157.519,"text":"請與會委員可以看一下我們民進黨這邊有修正動議那第五條第六條的部分我們是提出來修正動議那很簡單的說明就是為了讓通保法能夠去增加規範把一些犯罪的案類案型把它擴大納入嘛所以在第五條裡面我們增加了洗錢防制法21條的收不守條款 對不對"},{"start":6158.479,"end":6184.617,"text":"然後在《陸海空軍刑法》二十二條第一項的這個規範我們也把它納入我們的第五條裡頭然後一個重點就是我們這一次針對這個打炸的母法這個專法《詐欺犯罪妨害防治條例四》四條第一項所稱的這個複合型的詐欺犯罪也一併把它放進來所以應當是把"},{"start":6186.604,"end":6207.013,"text":"各種我們想像得到的這種都把它一併放入這第五條部分等一下委員可以看我們增加的都在不同的款項裡頭那第六條一樣我們也是增加了可以緊急上線的通訊監察相關的條文都把假期"},{"start":6208.675,"end":6226.371,"text":"打架專法裏面所規範的第43條所規範的高額假期的犯罪或者是打架專法裏頭第44條第一項複合型的假期犯罪也把它納進來我記得這是上一次我們在討論過程當中希望能夠去檢視跟打架專法裏頭所規定的"},{"start":6229.209,"end":6245.551,"text":"草案類也要把它一併的擴增放入所以我們就做出這樣的修正動議那也給其他委員來參考好 謝謝委員的修正動議說明那麼就請大家看到修正動議的第三頁首先對第五條的修正是針對第十五款"},{"start":6246.132,"end":6259.721,"text":"入海工軍刑法原條文只有寫第二十二條第四項現在加入了第二十二條第一項前段以及第二十二款這是增列第二十二款所謂詐欺犯罪妨害"},{"start":6261.099,"end":6286.135,"text":"防制條例的第四十條第一項之罪那就很多然後立法理由說明也做了補充那另外第六條部分就是把中間就是刑法之後也加列了詐欺犯罪妨礙防制條例的第四十三條第四十四條第一項那立法說明也做了補充這是以上民進黨的一個修正動議那民眾黨的修正動議是不是要請總召來說說明"},{"start":6289.675,"end":6307.114,"text":"這個修正動議其實我們上一次在委員會討論的時候就已經提出來了也是上次在委員會討論的時候我們就直接請教法務部我們認為說就有關於詐欺犯罪危害防制條例的部分那你要並行的兩個同步要去修"},{"start":6307.995,"end":6330.435,"text":"因為你們之前行政院所提出來的版本在洗錢防制法的部分你們已經有預先針對調製做了調整納入行政院的院版只不過說上次在委員會討論的時候行政院的院版裡面並沒有針對有關於詐欺犯罪危害防制條例也就是所謂的打詐專法把它一併納進去"},{"start":6331.756,"end":6349.923,"text":"所以我們上次在委員會把這個問題提出來了以後那法務部當場也同意說應該要把它給放進去那所以我們上一次其實在委員會的時候那也謝謝其他的黨團的委員大家都有共同的支持把詐欺犯罪"},{"start":6352.06,"end":6367.349,"text":"維害防治條例我們上一次就已經有提出了我們的修正動議出來了第二個部分是說針對今天所在提出的民主進步黨的幾位委員所提出來的要把他們"},{"start":6368.49,"end":6391.52,"text":"要把44條也放進去我們當然是同意因為在委員會的時候這件事情其實也都是討論過他只不過說我要提醒了一件事情是說詐欺犯罪違反防制條例第44條第44條事實上在那一邊按照不同委員的版本按照不同委員的版本他不是只有第一項的問題"},{"start":6393.083,"end":6412.18,"text":"他不是只有第一項的問題因為我們在內政委員會的時候針對這個打詐專法如果是透過如果是透過犯罪組織來犯的話如果是透過犯罪組織來犯的話那個在他實際上面不管是法意侵害的嚴重性罪質本身的要素跟"},{"start":6413.041,"end":6431.164,"text":"我們一般所在講的是現在刑法339之事是一般所謂的聚合犯三人以上去搞就好了根本沒有去論那三個人到底是什麼樣子的關係今天這三個人講好了就去幹了跟他是一個犯罪組織在幹的他在罪質上面危害上面也"},{"start":6432.265,"end":6454.551,"text":"根本就不一樣所以我那個時候在那次委員會針對打詐專法的時候我們有提出修正動議我們認為說你如果按照我們的組織犯罪防制條例其實我們組織犯罪防制條例當初是從美國的RICO法案來的你如果按照美國RICO法案的精神你如果是用犯罪組織去犯其他的特定犯罪的時候它其實"},{"start":6455.771,"end":6462.653,"text":"按照本來不是透過犯罪組織去犯那個犯罪行為的時候在法定刑上面"},{"start":6464.039,"end":6487.47,"text":"因為它的構成要件要素已經不一樣當你是用犯罪組織去犯的時候它對於社會所造成的危害是更大的所以就那個部分我們在打詐專法的部分主張所以這個部分要加重提醒不可以按照一般不是透過犯罪組織的去做看待那否則的話以現行法的操作方式"},{"start":6488.82,"end":6515.992,"text":"你用組織犯罪去犯那些罪組織犯罪防制條例事實上全部都被想像淨核掉了啦一旦被想像淨核掉雖然法院說啊雖然想像淨核那想像淨核掉的他也會去考慮到他裡面的罪質等等等等但現實上面司法實踐出來的結果就不是這樣我所謂司法實踐出來的結果就是你去看實際上面法院的判決所判出來的刑度"},{"start":6516.852,"end":6543.721,"text":"就完全不是那個樣子所以拉回來現在我們目前所在處理的這個有關於通保法的部分就有關於通保法的部分就是加入詐欺犯罪防制條例44條這個沒有問題但有問題的事情是說你會連動到在打詐專法的那個部分因為打到專法那個時候44條到底過什麼樣子現在還沒有辦法確定所以你是不是要只把它限縮在第一下"},{"start":6548.856,"end":6556.921,"text":"法務部說明根據法務委員報告草棄防罪條例第四十條的部分早上已經協商過只留第一項已經沒有第二項第三項第一項長什麼樣子第一項就是院版的"},{"start":6576.721,"end":6591.551,"text":"就是三人以上院版44條第一項你們今天上午的協商結論可以給我看嗎那是內政委員會另外已經黨團協商了"},{"start":6594.622,"end":6606.7,"text":"那這樣好不好這個部分齁我先做一個處理那這個黃總召要看上午內政委員會的協商那是不是我們有沒有辦法協助找到內政委員會的協商有齁那你"},{"start":6608.742,"end":6628.499,"text":"先請黃總統看一下在黃總統要談的時候我來說明一下目前這兩個修正動議其實民眾黨的修正動議跟民進黨的修正動議在第六條的部分是一樣的只是說我們這裡有多了一個前面的第十三款"},{"start":6631.451,"end":6647.086,"text":"有多了一個第十三款請大家再看一下民進黨的修正動議第十三款他是寫洗錢防制法第十九條至第二十一條原條文是寫洗錢防制法第十九條"},{"start":6648.393,"end":6653.795,"text":"第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案第十五款入海工軍刑法第22條第一項前段"},{"start":6669.941,"end":6696.142,"text":"另外一個補儀的部分請大家可以看到第一頁就是民進黨的修正動議第一頁最下面它的這個319條之三少了一個第字這是寫的漏字應該書寫的時候能漏了第319條之三這是目前針對修正動議的第五條部分先處理民進黨的部分"},{"start":6701.199,"end":6723.5,"text":"民眾黨的部分在第十五條的部分除了前面之外他在後面的第二十二款的部分文字內容是一樣的所以看完了之後黃總召你看完了嗎那請因為上午的那個協商我沒有參加所以我沒有看到那樣的協商結論"},{"start":6728.376,"end":6731.933,"text":"不是啊 你們把那個組織犯罪的部分把它拿掉了喔"},{"start":6735.953,"end":6759.281,"text":"各位報告那當時我們的意見是說他會有重複評價的問題啦不是啊怎麼會有重複評價的問題啊因為你先用組織犯罪他就已經成立組織犯罪的內涵部分就已經評價他的詐欺行為一次等一下等一下先提一下你說組織犯罪跟他的詐欺行為評價是一致的這是兩個不一樣的犯罪行為啊"},{"start":6760.495,"end":6783.673,"text":"我們的組織犯罪是你要犯特定的犯罪三人以上一堆構成要件所以在成立組織犯罪前提時他犯了某一個罪而構成組織犯罪所以這個詐欺行為已經被組織犯罪評價過一次那我們如果說是按照我們黨團版的話他是詐欺犯罪再犯組織的話他就又被評加重又再加重了一次"},{"start":6785.446,"end":6806.625,"text":"我這樣講絕對沒有重複評價的問題啦組織犯罪是組織犯罪你透過組織犯罪的方式去做有關於詐欺的行為有關於詐欺的行為這是兩回事啊就我沒有辦法理解也沒有辦法接受你剛剛所講的說什麼組織犯罪被詐欺評價過"},{"start":6808.547,"end":6815.526,"text":"各位報告因為組織犯罪前提是你要犯這個最重本性五年上的罪比如說詐欺好了"},{"start":6816.488,"end":6837.485,"text":"前提你要構成組織你要犯這個罪在三人以上再加上集團性、牟利性這些要件所以嘛你也知道嘛你們現在在刑法裡面339之事他就採取一個最簡單最便宜的立法方式嘛三人以上嘛對三人以上你們就加重了嘛對對嘛好那我現在問你"},{"start":6838.786,"end":6856.477,"text":"我們在犯罪組織的定義上會是三人以上就成立犯罪組織嗎不會嘛還有其他的要件嘛那為什麼會有其他的要件因為如果是有組織性的結構的話它對於整個治安對於整個法律破壞所造成的侵害程度更深嘛"},{"start":6857.515,"end":6878.068,"text":"所以我一直在講講的內容是什麼是你如果是透過犯罪組織去犯那些刑法上面的罪的時候跟我們一般去犯刑法上面那些罪的時候它所產生的危害是完全不一樣的但我們現在在實務上面操作下來的結果就是"},{"start":6879.008,"end":6899.186,"text":"你們組織犯罪的部分跟第一次的詐欺行為就把它想像淨和掉了嘛所有的判決全部都是這樣寫的嘛所以導致了什麼?所以導致的是說你事實上透過犯罪組織去做詐欺跟三人以上去做詐欺在我們現行法的法定型的規範結構下面論其實際的評價是一模一樣"},{"start":6903.329,"end":6931.746,"text":"當然為什麼會提修正動議會提修正動議就是你透過犯罪組織去搞跟一般的三人以上去搞這是兩種完全不一樣的罪質耶完全不一樣的罪質耶在完全不一樣罪質的情況之下我們竟然是透過相同的法定型的Range去評價不合理的地方在這裡所以我才一直跟你們講說當初我們在引進組織犯罪防制條例的時候"},{"start":6932.486,"end":6947.88,"text":"是看美國的RICO法案那你進一步真的去看美國的RICO法案就會發現說在RICO下面它寫得很清楚你如果是透過犯罪組織去犯下面的罪它是一連串全部都把它列出來"},{"start":6949.773,"end":6969.282,"text":"他所犯的那個罪的法定形是會變動的跟本來犯那個罪的法定形是不一樣的所以我才希望說我們這一次竟然要搞打詐專法特別是我們要打擊的是什麼打擊的是現在在搞這些詐欺的犯罪組織"},{"start":6970.643,"end":6993.794,"text":"在搞這些詐欺的犯罪組織更要加重處罰它跟我們一般在詐欺的形態跟在社會上面所造成的危害是不一樣的謝謝總統好因為我們現在對話的焦點是上午內政委員會的協商那我們現在組織性犯罪"},{"start":6994.795,"end":7012.043,"text":"我這樣說明好了啦上午協商的內容我還沒有看過我還沒有簽啦因為上午那個協商我真的還沒有看過所以就這個部分你說詐欺組織犯罪防制條例"},{"start":7014.546,"end":7033.478,"text":"44條還是只限於44條第一項是不是可以拜託保留一個空間我們等到打詐事法包起來的時候統合性的處理如果到時候我們說服不了大家大家還是認為說犯罪組織的部分跟沒有犯罪組織的部分我們相同看待就好了"},{"start":7034.298,"end":7060.886,"text":"那這個部分限於第一項我OK但我希望保留一個機會那個機會我還是想爭取啦因為我真的拜託法務部你們回去看一看過去這幾年所發生的事情台灣的犯罪組織為什麼那麼囂張組織犯罪防制條例快被架空了啦全部都被想像淨和掉了那個組織犯罪防制條例是導致我們社會一直在罵"},{"start":7063.008,"end":7090.047,"text":"對於這些黑幫怎麼感覺好像大家不要緊你最後判刑出來的時候你找一百個案件九十五件以上組織犯罪防制條例本來要處罰的內容跟對象全部都被想像進而掉了啦只剩下339條之四啦我就是因為看到這樣子實際上面法律操作的結果然後我們實際上面在面對這些犯罪組織的時候沒有辦法重罰"},{"start":7091.749,"end":7106.371,"text":"導致社會上面大家很火大所以我才希望藉由這次修法的時候一併把過去在立法以及法院實務上面合併操作出來的結果希望這次的修法能夠有所改正"},{"start":7107.915,"end":7134.917,"text":"理解 那吃的還在說明嗎 我了解意思那如果這樣是不是建議就是說我們把第一項拿掉的話無論44條未來通過哪個版本都可以使用對啊 可以啊好 來那我們這樣子齁那接下來齁我們剛剛也有討論過了那所以呢第五條跟第六條涉及到詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的第43條第44條後面的第一項就不入了齁"},{"start":7136.258,"end":7161.436,"text":"那第五條是如此第五條的第二十二款也是如此第六條的也是如此那麼至於其他的內容我們就按照第五條跟第六條就按照協商的結論通過 可以嗎可以好 謝謝那我們繼續看第第十一條之一你說對不起對不起 請說"},{"start":7165.072,"end":7189.774,"text":"呃呃跟主席報告一下因為基本上齁我還是一樣跟我在這個委員會的時候意見是相同的啦齁那對有幾樣東西我是還是有很多的保留但是因為說真的大家已經都這個一直送到這個地方來很多東西齁我也來不及去做一些補強的處理齁那我先講我我還是有保留的部分有疑慮的部分齁就是在那個"},{"start":7190.435,"end":7195.658,"text":"通訊使用者資料及通訊記錄及網路流量記錄無區分嫌疑人及第三人針對事後通知及損害賠償"},{"start":7213.709,"end":7232.54,"text":"提了這個兩個修正案現在嗎沒有沒有已經今天那個昨天今天早上進負二讀啦那我希望說是到時候我提的是等一下我看一下喔提的是第15條第19條的條文修正案喔喔喔第15條到時候我希望能夠併起來至少再做一點補強啦因為我還是講"},{"start":7234.981,"end":7257.202,"text":"事前我覺得我們的那個不管司法警察跟所有的檢察官你有打詐或任何針反犯罪的一個所謂急迫性的必要那就是損益權衡的問題嘛那你要侵害人民法益到什麼程度但是你為犯罪針防你所得獲得的那個時效利益多大但是這都不能夠去用來解釋事後你的便宜行事啦"},{"start":7257.822,"end":7282.852,"text":"那事後通知這件事情起碼讓當事人知道自己被偵查了那他也會有相應的救濟的一些措施那另外像我們在針對通訊監察有隨事後通知也有所謂的損害賠償責任的一個附加那這個部分都是我在提的那個修正案裡面我會提到的所以到時候我希望說能夠一起併到我們院會來討論"},{"start":7284.833,"end":7308.747,"text":"跟委員說明因為既然是院會交付進戶二讀那這個我們今天沒有辦法在這裡做協商所以我們這邊協商出去之後在院會二讀的時候一樣會處理好不好好那謝謝您的寶貴意見那這樣第五條第六條之後我們來處理第十一條之一十一條之一對請那個莊委員十一條之一是這樣子通保法來"},{"start":7312.37,"end":7325.615,"text":"這個我在質詢的時候我也請那我的立場就是說希望能夠對因為我們現在我們的協商沒有"},{"start":7326.926,"end":7342.564,"text":"沒有你的案子所以我們沒有辦法就你的案子做協商但是呢到了二讀的時候二讀的時候我們這個因為院會同時有一個進入二讀的就院會直接在那裡因為我們這個委員會這個黨團協商完一樣是交到二讀那邊去所以那個時候應該是"},{"start":7344.828,"end":7372.935,"text":"業長的協商要院長協商那個一定要到院長協商因為如果現在沒保留直接到二讀的話你要當壞人出面拉協商下來因為如果沒保留送直接院會是不能發言不能討論不能提修正動議所以今天如果有委員的意見要納進來的話今天不能沒有保留直接送院會還是要送院長講這個有一個好處我瞭解了我這樣說"},{"start":7374.605,"end":7403.473,"text":"我們今天的內容就算是都同意了未來您的案子在院長主持朝野商一樣是會拿出來處理不是說把我們的案子拉下來因為我們這個未來送到惡毒前院長因為有一個惡毒近乎惡毒的案子在他手上所以他就要來主持一個朝野協商不會因為我們有沒有保留因為我們這裡就我們現有的內容沒有要保留嘛"},{"start":7404.593,"end":7426.983,"text":"但是到了二讀前因為有個近乎二讀的在院長那裡所以院長本來就會就您院會交付近乎二讀的跟我們委員會送出去經過黨團協商的一起處理啦所以我們不需要在裡保留啦因為羅志強今天剛好今天的協商裡面確實是沒有你的案子啦你到院會可以但是我是這樣覺得他剛提到這個通保法"},{"start":7428.885,"end":7443.38,"text":"11條之一的部分我也來表達一下我一直的看法就是說我請法務部這個地方再去考量一下因為我記得我在質詢的時候我就就教過我們法務部跟司法院的意見就是說為什麼我們在這個通訊使用者的資料"},{"start":7444.441,"end":7468.759,"text":"這個個人資料的部分反而沒有獲得程序上的這些保障我要記得當初次長你的回應是說秘密通訊自由的部分這個個資相較於通訊這個有內容的部分你說認為是比較輕微的為什麼一直我有不同的看法就是說你這個個資的自主權跟秘密通訊自由這個部分其實是兩個不同的派樣"},{"start":7470.1,"end":7498.332,"text":"講更嚴重一點是兩個不同的一個基本權你要去講說誰高誰低你去把它看我們這111年這個憲判制第一號的判決書裡面就去強調你取得跟利用個人資訊的目的範圍跟這個程序這樣的一個重要事項裡面都應該去依個人資訊的一個屬性取得的方式像比如說你要利用的目的跟範圍要有一個正當的法律程序所以我談到這個"},{"start":7499.372,"end":7517.588,"text":"就是說你怎麼樣去確保這個資訊不受濫用不當的揭露這樣的一個適當防護機制其實重點我很清楚要講的就是說這個不會增加檢察官的那個你們的負擔我一直認為說這個部分是不是至少你也要檢察官保留"},{"start":7519.23,"end":7534.344,"text":"是否可以再考慮一項因為第一項你說警察就可以調取通訊使用者的一個資料然後就對整個資訊就是個資的部分這個保障是不是"},{"start":7535.385,"end":7562.93,"text":"充分因為偵查所我們這個整部法律就是在談的就是在談的是要加強讓偵查其實真實的發現其實也講難聽一點就是增加偵查的一個便利性便利性但是是不是只單從從偵查的便利性去做考量是不是也應該考慮到說授權的依據跟你這個整個程序這樣的一個保障才會更周延是不是請這個次長這個地方"},{"start":7565.651,"end":7569.916,"text":"你再回應一下 或者再考慮一下至少你要講一下 我們保留啊來 那請次長說明 黃次長"},{"start":7576.225,"end":7595.591,"text":"各位報告這個我們在審查的過程當中已經互相討論過很多次本部還是認為就是說這個升登人的資料使用者的資料他其實只有你在跟訂契約的時候所簽的個人的姓名住址跟身份證資料這種最簡易型的資料"},{"start":7596.912,"end":7612.865,"text":"這個沒有涉及到互相之間的通聯記錄的內容更沒有內容而且我跟委員報告其實我們這不是我們台灣獨創的在德國的《刑訴法》它其實就這個也讓司法警察他可以獨自去調起這個升登人的個人的資料"},{"start":7614.086,"end":7640.288,"text":"因為就如同我一再說明的就是說他當然會有對隱私會有一點點影響沒有錯但他就從層級化保障的角度來看是不是所有的這種個人的升登資料都要經過檢察官保留事實上我們檢察官司法檢察現在在辦案的時候他調賬戶資料或調各種的個人的升登資料司法警察及職權的行使調查目的現在事實上他們都在做了"},{"start":7640.828,"end":7657.041,"text":"那只是說這邊規範在通保法我們手機現在到底是誰申請的這件事情要不要到檢察官來核這件事情需要不要到保留到這種程度我請司法院那個廳長你也表達一下你的看法"},{"start":7660.749,"end":7677.245,"text":"審議委員的指教有關於使用者資訊這個部分如果我們參考德國的法制的話它是用行政命令的方式就可以調取並沒有拉到說有法官保留或是檢察官保留但是如果"},{"start":7679.407,"end":7695.143,"text":"我們把它層級化處理的話就如同剛剛次長所講的我們要層級化處理單純的使用者資訊它能揭露或侵害到人民的基本權的干預程度高不高如果我們想到現實的狀況之下包括車籍資料的調取"},{"start":7695.703,"end":7712.303,"text":"大概也都沒有任何的所謂的保留的問題而且符合我們一般的偵查的需要並沒有違反我們的偵查目的跟偵查的便利性對個人的侵害我想大概還是有一點權衡可能沒有那麼嚴重這是我補充的說明上"},{"start":7714.403,"end":7741.856,"text":"好 謝謝現在我們進行的是第十一條之一那分別在上次委員會保留的有台灣民眾黨的提案以及我們那時候保留行政院的提案那目前這兩個提案的差異當然今天還包含了由院會交下來二讀的林一錦委員的提案那這裡面我說明一下民眾黨的版本就跟行政院版的版本是要有檢察官依職權或司法檢察官報警檢察官許可後調取"},{"start":7743.677,"end":7744.015,"text":"立法院朝野黨團擬具"},{"start":7744.895,"end":7770.006,"text":"急迫使司法檢察官可以進行調取但是調取後要報請檢察官許可所以民眾黨團的版本是屬於一個緊急的時候是由司法檢察官大概原則上還是屬於檢察官保留的部分事後要取得檢察官的許可那剛剛法務部的意見跟司法院的意見都認為類似這樣使用者的申請登記的申登資料包括在車籍其他的方面都是屬於一種行政調查的就會取得的範圍那這點就請在場委員參酌一下"},{"start":7774.528,"end":7801.416,"text":"那麼請問黃總召台灣民眾黨的看法你們有沒有要沒有對11條之一我必須要老實說刑事警察局的同仁他們非常負責任的有來進行報告也有來進行說明對於現在警察他們整體在處理案件量上面的負擔整體上面的負擔我們100%都收到了我們100%都收到了那"},{"start":7805.037,"end":7824.362,"text":"11條之一會比較特殊的地方是在於說因為上一次通保法修正的時候立法上面計數的錯誤導致按照以前舊的通保法就很荒謬就檢察官要去跟法官申請警察要警察就可以直接搞"},{"start":7825.262,"end":7852.294,"text":"那因此有在這樣的背景之下這一次直接把它放到就有關於司法警察官的部分他們要去調取這件事情我必須要說就是原則上原則上這個方向我們認同但我們現在在同時在猶豫的一件事情是那是不是也可以請法務部跟刑事警察局這邊協助一下就是"},{"start":7854.272,"end":7879.026,"text":"針對我們第一個放直接放給那個司法警察或司法警察官在調取的時候我們怎麼樣去建立了一個事後的控制跟查核機制那這個事後的控制跟查核機制是不是有可能請你們稍微思考一下我們就直接把它補在這一次的通報法裡面不要再用 不要再用"},{"start":7880.228,"end":7897.215,"text":"其他的方式來加以處理因為我很怕那個承諾會是空的啦我很怕那個承諾會是空的因為其實德國他們相關事後的監察跟控制的機制因為他們不像我們現在已經分散到很多特別法全部都規定在刑事訴訟法裡"},{"start":7898.556,"end":7926.572,"text":"他們的刑事訴訟法裡面是直接有建立這樣子的機制在控管的我相信司法院非常的清楚那這個其實也可以某個程度上去呼應到其他的委員大家針對十一條之一包括鐘瑞雄委員我相信他絕對不是要阻礙警察去偵查犯罪他會去猶豫到說猶豫到說如果沒有控管好的話對於在人權上面所可能"},{"start":7927.852,"end":7953.572,"text":"會產生的侵害對於各自特別這個是牽涉到比較機敏資訊的部分那就這個部分是不是有可能說我們取得一個平衡點那個平衡點是說我們同意放直接放給司法警察第一線你們就去做因為我知道你們現在很辛苦上次刑事警察局都有來說明過了但這個同時針對"},{"start":7957,"end":7973.609,"text":"放給你們做了以後怎麼樣做一個事後的監督跟控管的機制也可以同時處理的起來因為我很怕說在這邊就點頭了一點頭直接交給警察做了以後那未來如果有什麼樣子的狀況的話那到底"},{"start":7977.788,"end":8003.163,"text":"這件事情我覺得在這個階段我寧願在現在這個階段還是希望說法務部也好因為法務部基本上你們也認同就直接交給警察嘛檢察官認為說不要來找我啦不要找我我現在很忙啦一堆警察來找我警察也累檢察官也累我們都理解但在處理這件事情的時候我們還是要回到一般人民"},{"start":8004.195,"end":8028.973,"text":"他們的立場來去思考這一件事情這個是第一個我要講的事情第二個我要講的事情是說因為台灣民眾黨沒有召委我們沒有排案權但我希望利用這一次黨團協商的時候公開呼籲一下不管是民進黨的召委鐘嘉賓還是中國國民黨的召委吳宗憲因為這個打造事法我們列為在7月16號"},{"start":8033.925,"end":8058.196,"text":"之前要把它完成的優先法案我們全力支持所以我們在跟時間賽跑我所謂在跟時間賽跑是我們希望打造司法在7月16號之前能夠把它處理完成但並不代表中間重要的事情可以不處理所謂中間重要的事情可以不處理是說上一次我們在討論到網路流量紀錄的時候"},{"start":8061.379,"end":8085.32,"text":"上次討論到網路流量因為這也是在11條之一的射程範圍內只不過給錢的那個條文不在11條之一給錢的那個授權的規定要給電信業者錢的規定我們上次過了但上次我們在委員會審的時候我必須要老實說我相信在委員會審所有的委員腦袋裡面都沒有概念"},{"start":8086.201,"end":8108.771,"text":"要給電信業者錢我們在討論的金額是第一次的建制費用就上百億了我們上次在委員會討論的時候我覺得我們必須要負責任的講最起碼對我來講我那時候坐在那邊討論過那個授權的條款你一方面科與電信業者義務嘛你另外一方面授權說要編經費給他嘛錢要給他嘛"},{"start":8111.567,"end":8135.139,"text":"我們那時候在審這個條文的時候我真的不知道我也沒有想到那個建制的經費是上百億那因為建制的經費是上百億所以之前在委員會的時候質詢我才請法務部說你們那個上百億的基礎到底是怎麼出來的要講清楚因為我們在過這個條文的時候我必須要老實講幾乎是頭過身就過了"},{"start":8138.123,"end":8153.035,"text":"投過身就過了你刻了人家這個義務法律要授權說你要給人家錢但後來後續你們所提供的資料就是你們後來用1800萬給中華電信做了一個委託研究嘛"},{"start":8153.769,"end":8168.644,"text":"那個委託報告我看完了那個委託報告裡面有很多問題那個問題不適合在黨團協商來談所以我才說我希望如果716以前我們要順利把這個東西大家都覺得"},{"start":8169.827,"end":8194.641,"text":"沒有掛礙的把它送出去的話那希望不管是民進黨這邊的召委還是國民黨這邊的召委針對網路流量紀錄我們通就是說委員會出審上次沒有保留的那個條文接下來到底要怎麼做以及電信業者他們那個時候中華電信拿的那1800萬的委託報告怎麼樣去算說三大電信業者"},{"start":8195.666,"end":8205.039,"text":"各要給30幾億因為我後來把那個報告我自己研讀完了也去請教了相關領域的專家那個裡面要處理的問題還真的蠻多的"},{"start":8205.919,"end":8232.687,"text":"那所以我是利用這個機會公開呼籲說希望未來委員會有機會能夠排一次專案報告把相關的主管機關包括法務部、調查局、刑事警察局甚至當初做這個拿了1800萬做這個委託研究報告中華電信的都可以一併請來在我們正式讓法案二讀三讀通過以前針對這一次大家很關注的網路流量紀錄"},{"start":8233.667,"end":8240.862,"text":"能夠有一個比較充實的討論以及知道我們這個東西過了下去以後實際上面實際的影響以上"},{"start":8242.128,"end":8267.708,"text":"好 謝謝後面黃總召的呼籲其實我這邊大概7月15號還有一次事實上這個流量記錄的部分是在我們上次委員會審查通過的第三條之一那它這裡面寫了有六個項目那這六個項目後續也真的誠如剛剛黃總召說的我們都很關心也找了電信業者跟相關的執行單位那我們也覺得這個部分後續要有更完整的配套"},{"start":8268.328,"end":8288.526,"text":"但是因為他不在我們今天的範圍那我會剛剛黃總召的呼籲我們努力的在後續的委員會審查當中把這個部分把它做得更充實那另外剛剛第十一條之一的部分聽起來那個是之一的第一項我說第四項我還有一點看法第四項"},{"start":8290.108,"end":8309.884,"text":"第十一條之一的第四項是不是我是不是也請教我們那個司法院的議廳長你看我們那個十一條之一第四項的南瓜很多重大的一個罪行檢察官許可以後可以來調取這個通訊記錄跟網路流量記錄這個你採取一個重罪獵取的一個原則"},{"start":8310.835,"end":8334.255,"text":"這次修法也列舉很多像是洗房法跟兒少性剝削等等這也就是說我們在特定犯罪就完全不受有令狀程序的一個保護這個在理論上我就覺得有點沒辦法自圓其說因為你南瓜的罪行這麼的多你基本上就是說這個將同條文裡面對人民的資訊自主權這個部分的一個侵害部分"},{"start":8335.296,"end":8337.898,"text":"從最低的你那個干預授權採取檢察官保留可是那最高的通聯的部分是法官保留原整會不會有架空的一個問題我要特別講的就是說請各位再仔細思考一下如果說你未來把這個適用列舉所謂的重罪條款"},{"start":8353.511,"end":8367.462,"text":"當然就是說因為重罪這個部分有受害人急迫性但是我們在第五項已經有急迫情況之下都可以相對的法官保留那這樣的調取通訊紀錄跟網路流量紀錄的規範難道不夠用嗎這位廳長你會怎麼看請李廳長"},{"start":8376.975,"end":8398.291,"text":"這個是延續原先通保法第十一條之一的架構而來的原先的條文就是採取檢查官保留的形式在處理所以基本上他當時在第一項他就是三年以上有檢查官保留包括調取相關的紀錄這個部分這部分要不要採取法官保留那個是選擇的問題"},{"start":8400.092,"end":8411.738,"text":"那尤其是在這種重罪之下他有一個急迫性那在這種重罪列舉之後可能就偵查為了偵查所需還是採取檢察官保留這個來做處理以上我的意思就是說你第五項也有急迫之下你都有相對法官保留我意思說你這樣武器甘真真不夠你看你那個第四項你變成多肥大你知道嗎"},{"start":8425.265,"end":8430.711,"text":"你那個比條文本身多那麼多你到最後那個所謂的干預授權令狀主義你還要變空談啦 我跟你講想一下 想一下會不會有這個問題我再次提醒啦 是"},{"start":8440.529,"end":8468.981,"text":"我這個剛剛莊委員所提示的第四項我們再思考一下那剛剛第十一條之一其實剛剛那個黃總召也提出了他們在經過行政警察局的說明之後他們覺得第一項就是通訊使用者資料就升登資料的部分呢希望還是可以留下一個可動清查的記錄那這裡面我請教一下我們試著如果剛剛主席按照大家的意見表達在第一項的得調取之句號後面"},{"start":8469.921,"end":8493.543,"text":"假設如果我們有一個修正東西大家可以接的話那其一辦法另定之就是表示說你這個調取還是要有一個辦法那這個辦法當中是不是把剛剛委員所關切的縱使是沒有檢察官保留調取的過程他可能可以要求調取的記錄要有一些留存在什麼情況之下可以被做複合或集合之用"},{"start":8494.304,"end":8520.203,"text":"那因為就採取最小變動原則如果得調取之那其辦法另定之這樣的一個修正動議是不是可以讓大家委員所期待的有所附著啦這個部分齁那個法務部或行政警察局齁就是因為現在大家針對的是司法警察官可以調取之基本上是可以接受但是希望這個調取的紀錄是有留存可以讓"},{"start":8521.758,"end":8547.597,"text":"外部或者其他稽查之用是不會是完全不知道你調取了沒有那個行政警察局這邊的看法主席還有各位委員警政署行政警察局報告有關於剛剛黃委員所提就是有關於調取通訊使用者的記錄的部分的事後那個稽查部分警政署跟行政警察局"},{"start":8548.732,"end":8552.653,"text":"立法院朝野黨團擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案含具:「洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案含具:「洗錢防制"},{"start":8566.237,"end":8593.564,"text":"實施通訊監察的所有調取的這所有的留存的紀錄跟所有的程序來定期來做一個集合檢查那從今年的1月到5月相關院檢機關到我們警政署的通訊檢查機構已經有實施27次的一個稽查也就是說平均每個月超過5次有相關的院檢機關到我們的通訊檢查機關來做稽查那這個套的制度已經實施多年以來我們都是按照這個程序來進行"},{"start":8594.424,"end":8613.467,"text":"那未來如果我們通報法這邊授予警察在調取通訊使用者記錄或是包含流量記錄的部分我們都願意比照通訊監察的內容將相關記錄留存之後除了我們自己本身的內控機制以外我們願意比照"},{"start":8614.212,"end":8624.415,"text":"同樣讓院檢機關可以有這個來做一個稽查審核機制以確保整個法律程序的一個落實執行不會有任何的一個弊端產生 以上好 謝謝 那因為剛剛黃總長意思是說這不能說了齁願意說了就沒有了 還要畫押啦那資料寫在條文裡面 其辦法另定之還是有一個附帶決議 請黃總長"},{"start":8634.912,"end":8651.877,"text":"那個如果按照你剛剛所寫的方向齁我們譬如說因為你在相次上面要插第二項還是要放到最後一項可以考慮你插到第二項就是前項資料之調取程序保存銷毀及事後監察之機制其辦法"},{"start":8665.342,"end":8678.695,"text":"由主管機關擬定制不管是放在第二項還是放在最後一項那如果是這樣子的設計的話不曉得法務部這邊跟刑事警察局這邊是不是都OK大概思考一下因為最後一項是說"},{"start":8688.737,"end":8703.219,"text":"如果是前面的所有的包括檢察官、司法檢察官為偵查犯罪及蒐集證據那跟前面的第一項一樣嘛但是只要經用戶或電信使用人同意就可以調取他的通訊使用者資料"},{"start":8704.901,"end":8732.888,"text":"通訊紀錄、流量紀錄不受第一項至第八條之限他本來是在處理這個啦那現在呢我們要回歸來說是不是把第一項的這個調取紀錄齁能夠在最後一項這裡面把它表達了本來最後一項表達說要同意登在一項啦要不然在這地方後面你們本來這最後一項是說使用者同意就好了嘛用戶同意嘛那現在呢就要再一個第一項的部分"},{"start":8735.438,"end":8742.27,"text":"更明確化啦院受法院的這個稽查齁這個更明確化寫在後面啦來 那個 次長"},{"start":8745.626,"end":8769.959,"text":"原則上為了不避免造成這一個相次的連動我建議是擺最後一項它才不會連動如果我們改成這樣條文就是說通信者使用者資料調取資料保存、銷毀、監督、集合等相關事項之辦法由法務部、會同、內政部並會商相關機關定之這個是不是文字表達出來這個文字我OK"},{"start":8772.447,"end":8785.212,"text":"從保存到後面銷毀你那個前面那個調舉的程序是不是可以把它放進去因為我們等於是第一項給了一個滿蓋瓜的授權就警察他們認為有必要的時候他們就可以去調嘛那程序上面怎麼控管這件事情既然我們現在已經要有一個法律授權的辦法了那這個辦法也會讓你們的執法機關自己去定嘛因為我相信啊"},{"start":8801.124,"end":8829.442,"text":"我們如果沒有法規授權的話你們一定是用行政規則level的東西在處理你們裡面到底是怎麼吊嘛因為警察絕對不可能沒有一個程序喜歡想吊就去吊那個太可怕了我相信你們現實上也不是這樣在運作你們現在內部一定有一個管理規則只不過你們現在欸對對對現在內部那個管理規則比較類似像行政規則level的東西那現在既然我們已經在法條裡面"},{"start":8831.167,"end":8858.633,"text":"授權給他法規命令的性格所以我是說那個剛剛次長所講的那個文字原則上我都贊同但是可不可以把程序也把它給放上去等於是說他們現在在訂的這個東西你們到時候訂這個辦法的時候把這個程序也都把它內化進去這樣子其實警察局你們OK嗎好他們可以啦那文字上我們把它列印出來那再提供給大家我們就用修正動議來做處理"},{"start":8860.626,"end":8872.318,"text":"好 那麼剛剛呢因為莊委員先離開齁莊委員所說的那個第四項的部分齁是不是司法院理事長或法務部次長你們對於剛剛莊委員的意見要不要做回應請"},{"start":8878.415,"end":8901.099,"text":"剛剛莊委員的意見是關於這第四項檢察官保留的部分事實上這個架構我們沒有變動原來修正前通保法的架構原來修正前通保法的架構就是採這種架構由檢察官保留我們這次修正只是把加了一個網路流量記錄進去而已它原來就是通保法檢察官這部分檢察官之前調集的檢察官保留"},{"start":8914.025,"end":8932.107,"text":"那個司法院這邊因為這邊就是第四項跟後面新增的第五項原來的第四項其實就是原來既有條文沒有動啦但是因為我們新增了第五項嘛好那第五項跟第四項之間有沒有什麼樣的衝突"},{"start":8933.444,"end":8960.164,"text":"那個從形式上看起來應該是沒有衝突的是沒有衝突他只是增加了多列舉了幾個罪名而已那個第四項多列舉了幾個罪名認為說他們有實際的證明他們的立法體力如同剛剛司法院代表所講的沒有錯他不是增加這個新的立法設計那個立法設計本來就在那裡啦現在他只是把歷史的擴充嘛"},{"start":8960.945,"end":8979.587,"text":"那把歷史的擴充大家就要想清楚說針對上面所增加出來的那個罪名一條一條看大家有沒有認為不妥的因為剛莊委員的意思我相信莊越雄委員他的意思應該不是要打壞本來的立法結構設計"},{"start":8982.11,"end":9000.304,"text":"他應該因為這個不是這一次修法新增加本來就有就放在那個地方嘛這次只是把他的list稍微再多增加一點那當然未來那個list甚至這次要檢討也不是不行啦因為你連脫逃都放在裡面現在脫逃判多重對啊是啦是啦那所以啦就是那個list如果"},{"start":9010.925,"end":9040.094,"text":"委員們有擔心說裡面個別的罪把他放進去他覺得不妥那表達意見大家如果有共識你們執法也不會有困擾要把他拿掉我覺得這個是可以保留一個理性討論的空間因為我相信莊委員雖然走了但他剛發言我聽得很清楚他在後面應該去洗手間是不是看要不要問莊委員說上面有沒有什麼罪是他覺得不應該放進去被放進去的"},{"start":9042.162,"end":9063.799,"text":"等專文回到座位上之後我們繼續處理那剛剛所說的在陣列最後一項的部分是不是文字已經可以印給大家了印給大家了啦其實我們可以秀在螢幕上也可以不然最好還是書面大概簽一簽如果文字上可以的話我們再簽一簽就成為我們的協商的決定好那這段過程當中我再繼續保留把握時間31條的部分"},{"start":9066.902,"end":9074.778,"text":"因為上次有保留是不是三十一條在這裡就是關於"},{"start":9077.437,"end":9103.576,"text":"這個應該是要請教黃總召啦上次因為保留主要是您這邊有提到因為有關電信業者協力的義務那麼行政院版的法則刪除了撤銷許可或特許或許可那因為原來的法則在原來電管法裡面我們是可以撤銷的那現在電管法修正改為登記制那請問你看"},{"start":9105.836,"end":9128.479,"text":"你們對這個電信業者電信業者現在全部喔都改用準則主義喔應該不是這樣吧那你們有發執照嗎有發 有發如果有發執照那我把他撤銷執照他還可以營業嗎"},{"start":9130.217,"end":9145.577,"text":"當然如果廢紙了就不行但是因為他的一個廢紙他是採取一個比較嚴謹的態度不好意思你講話大聲一點因為聲音有點糊在一起我聽不太清楚對你沒有不敬"},{"start":9147.609,"end":9169.248,"text":"我這邊再跟委員補充報告就是說因為電管法它轉軌以後那電信事業已經沒有特許還有許可而改採這個登記制那依照電管法第五條的規定那目前三大電信事業它是必須是登記制它的一個法定義務"},{"start":9170.189,"end":9184.148,"text":"那主要的考量就是說因為電信資源他是受到比較嚴謹的一個分配那電信事業他也必須要擔負保障民眾使用電信權益所以如果說廢紙"},{"start":9186.171,"end":9201.761,"text":"將會影響到眾多使用電信服務的民眾權益所以我們在這個電管法裡面其實它都有相應的一個監理上面比例性的一個考量那對於這些電信業"},{"start":9202.802,"end":9231.355,"text":"有關相關的一些監理違反的相關法則其實我們在電管法72條到82條都有如列各個違反的一個規定在這邊要補充就是說因為如果考慮到處罰的一個比例性我們在電管法79條的第一項第四款對於電信業如果他沒有依規定來提供通信紀錄的話"},{"start":9232.695,"end":9234.675,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":9259.5,"end":9277.154,"text":"其實已經提高了五倍相對是比較高如果說要比例性來調整的話我們是建議說在目前行政院版本的修正草案50萬到250萬可以參考五倍可能可以調整為50萬到500萬"},{"start":9283.639,"end":9294.234,"text":"與以加重這樣可能就是相類近的違反行為是不是可以比較符合它的一個比例性以上補充"},{"start":9295.1,"end":9317.84,"text":"好 那個我要說明一下就是說本來的本來的那一個在處理上面本來在處理上面的罰則的部分我們是希望說讓主管機關手上的武器多一點不要讓電信業者解皮皮啦因為我上次其實也有跟NCC的"},{"start":9319.728,"end":9342.882,"text":"對那個蔡處長嘛我有跟蔡處長溝通過因為我有時候說罰電信業人你對一般人來講罰個五十萬感覺是很重的啊你罰中華電信罰個五十萬那是什麼概念啊你不要就從他每年的營收慶利你罰中華電信罰五十萬好像在罰五塊錢"},{"start":9345.458,"end":9365.68,"text":"一樣嘛我本來是希望說讓你們主管機關在這個法律的授權下你們有比較多的武器可以去使用去要求在法律上面要求這個電信業者去履行他在法律上面的義務在履行他法律上面的義務那你剛剛所講的"},{"start":9367.199,"end":9387.956,"text":"他有執照沒有錯執照把他廢止掉會影響很多用戶那我也可以理解但有的時候對他們來講在只有罰錢跟整個廢止中間你其實針對他裡面有關他可以去去從事的"},{"start":9389.347,"end":9415.801,"text":"去管控他的業務範圍的部分也就是他的license因為針對電信業者你們不要再談登記制啦那當然要登記嘛你主要都還是透過你核發給他的license他才有辦法去做那些事嘛所以就有關於不是整個廢紙料喔限制業務其中的一步當成管制的手段你們認為有沒有必要對啦"},{"start":9416.481,"end":9434.654,"text":"二、如果連這個你們也認為沒有需要因為我們現在不是在剝奪你們主管機關管制的可能性是在提供你們面對大電信業者管制的手段的時候"},{"start":9435.751,"end":9462.797,"text":"我們剛剛就講了嘛在這法裡面的網路流量紀錄我先不要講那個建制費用上百億我後來就看了一下未來每一年的營運費用那三大電信業者一年大家分到個好幾億啊看起來會變成是這個樣子結果我們給他那麼多錢在旅行義務的情況之下他如果不配合我們重罰五十萬這敢不看"},{"start":9465.969,"end":9491.869,"text":"我是請NCC你要去衡量到這一件事情要去顧慮到說我們在這個管制手段的有效性跟它的強制性的部分你說不要給NCC廢紙的權利這個我贊成你說的有道理會影響到全部用戶的但除了全部廢紙再單純罰錢中間有沒有其他的選項你們要還是不要"},{"start":9492.979,"end":9516.779,"text":"還是你認為說我還是沒有需要你只要給我罰還的權利就好了罰還的權利剛剛你也講了嘛說是不是從現在院版的五十萬到兩百五十萬稍微把它拉高五十萬到五百萬我再給NCC這一件事情我老實講我沒有堅持但我覺得NCC你們等一下講了柴文的立場我們大家都點頭你們未來要負責"},{"start":9519.12,"end":9534.252,"text":"謝謝我想黃總召這邊提出一個思考的一個突破點如果去參考金管會在管制這些特許行業的時候他的手段很多限制他的發行新型商品限制他的業務開展限制他的分行設立數量"},{"start":9535.072,"end":9559.873,"text":"有太多太多了當然目前我們的電信業銀幕是特許行業但是目前電管法本質上它只有罰還並沒有其他的行政手段可以讓業者稍微除了繳錢之外讓他就範的一些管制作為這個部分要請NCC回去在電管法當中再去思考一下因為今天我們處理的不是電管法我們處理的是通保法"},{"start":9560.273,"end":9576.043,"text":"那這裡面NC也表達如果參考他們原來電管法的規格應該五十萬到五百萬這個會比較相襯那如果是這樣的話各位委員覺得如何那剛剛先回答黃總召的意見是"},{"start":9578.155,"end":9596.689,"text":"非常謝謝黃委員的一個指導我想當然給行政機關多一點的一些武器我們非常感謝但是因為定管法還是有它整體的一個規範架構的一個整體性考量"},{"start":9598.209,"end":9618.053,"text":"對於有關廢紙在我們定管法應該廢紙的一個情勢他如果說有違反營運計畫有重大情節當然他也可以去執行這一個廢紙將來他這一部分其實也應該會納入他所謂的一個營運計畫裡面的一環"},{"start":9620.994,"end":9629.517,"text":"自於說在這邊他個別上面沒有辦法配合的部分我們是認為說還是跟那個通訊記錄他沒提供的一個處罰"},{"start":9636.82,"end":9657.033,"text":"這個比較接近的這樣一個比例性來做考量會是比較適切而且過去的時務我們的了解執法機關所謂的一個調取應該電信事業還沒有說不配合的一個情勢這邊也特別提出來讓委員了解"},{"start":9658.194,"end":9683.173,"text":"沒有關係啦因為齁這個主要是要授權給你們管制手段嘛啊未來出了狀況反正主管機關就是要負責任嘛所以剛剛他也提到一個重點嘛齁說就是那這樣好了就按照NCC的建議我們31條的部分齁如果大家也都同意就按照剛剛NCC所他們表示的意見因為最終在面對這些電信機構的還是NCC嘛"},{"start":9685.214,"end":9701.326,"text":"那罰還的部分是不是就調整成五十萬以上五百萬以下這樣子其他委員呢對於我們第31條現場的一個協商建議是改為五十萬以上五百萬以下罰還"},{"start":9703.578,"end":9719.081,"text":"OK那如果在場委員覺得可以的話我們第31條就按照協商內容通過那另外呢回到第11條之一目前呢有一個修正動議剛剛已經請各位委員在審視了這相關計畫是什麼"},{"start":9733.895,"end":9758.006,"text":"來 法務部說明一下這個會商內政部之外的相關機關好 那請簽名好那30條我在這邊唸一次31條的修正動議11條之一的修正動議"},{"start":9766.294,"end":9786.951,"text":"來11條我們增列最後一項我也數不出它是第幾項就是在這11項11條之一增列11項修正動議通訊使用者資料調取之程序資料保存、銷毀、監督、集合等相關事項之辦法由法務部、會同內政部並會商相關機關定之"},{"start":9790.472,"end":9802.145,"text":"好 那麼這是那是不是我們第十一條之一就照協商內容通過好 欸那個黃中央還有還有還有還有什麼等下跟你講一下對對對對對我怕你太急害我們都還在"},{"start":9803.519,"end":9825.324,"text":"是這樣齁我先宣讀一下齁那個本日會議協商主題三齁做協商結論如下那麼第五條第六條第十一條之一及第三十一條軍造協商內容通過降爐復建那二其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過好那這個要請大家簽齁那另外呢剛剛那個通"},{"start":9828.107,"end":9850.394,"text":"科證法的部分我一直認為科證法因為兩個交委排案所以嘉賓委員今天就是處理科證法的協商這是OK的那中線委員去處理刑訴的協商最後要併也是在那個朝野協商的時候去處理"},{"start":9852.305,"end":9877.753,"text":"我的認知是這樣因為大家今天都在這裡如果今天不處理我覺得是有點在程序上是有點錯誌的剛剛那個修正動議是不是有給大家了課證法的部分請大家看一下那個包括我們黃總召、莊委員、吳委員我說明一下目前手上大家看到有一個修正動議那這修正動議我們有甄列了"},{"start":9879.786,"end":9903.454,"text":"從十二條、十三條、十四條有增列的...從第幾條呢?增列了好幾條那我想說明一下因為原來柯真法當中對於違反柯真法濫權進行調查的行為並沒有做處罰的規定那所以呢我們這個動議當中就是觀察到對於"},{"start":9908.462,"end":9923.138,"text":"依依科證法來發動偵查的機關或行為人他如果是濫權作為那怎麼樣去規範它所以這個修正動議就補了這些條文請大家可以看到從12條開始從11條開始 來"},{"start":9926.829,"end":9950.261,"text":"十一條的部分就是違法實施第二條、第三條或第四條之調查者處二年以下有期徒刑、拘役或三十萬元以下罰金執行或協助執行第二條、第三條或第四條調查之公務員或從業人員假借職務或業務上之權利、機會或方法犯前項之罪者處五年以下有期徒刑、拘役或五十萬元以下罰金"},{"start":9951.201,"end":9968.736,"text":"那再來第三項意圖盈利而犯前二項之罪者依各該項之規定加重其刑之二分之一然後呢再增列第十二條明知為違法時是第二條第三條或第四條之調查所得之資料資料而無故洩漏或交付之者"},{"start":9970.098,"end":9997.691,"text":"處三年以下有期徒刑拘役或三十萬元以下罰金意圖盈利而犯前項之罪者加重其刑至二分之一再增列第十三條因職務或業務知悉或持有依本法之規定實施第二條、第三條或第四條調查所得之資料而無故洩漏或交付之者處二年以下有期徒刑拘役或二十萬元以下罰金然後公務員或承認公務員之因職務"},{"start":9999.372,"end":10018.931,"text":"知悉或持有依本法之規定實施第二條、第三條或第四條調查所得之資料而無故洩漏或交付之者處三年以下有期徒刑意圖營利而犯前二項罪者依各該項規定加重其刑至二分之一最後還加上第十四條、第十一條、第一項"},{"start":10019.952,"end":10031.506,"text":"第十二條第一項第十三條第一項須告訴乃論好那麼在這裡呢跟委員做跟我們前上代表做說明因為柯真法在我們之前的有保留嗎"},{"start":10032.711,"end":10053.441,"text":"沒有保留因為那時候沒有保留但是在這段時間很多委員反映對於克正法目前所使用的包括什麼M化車包括這個耳熱顯像等等這些必要的偵查或打擊犯罪所必要偵查工具應該賦予但是在使用這些工具如果有逾越他偵查"},{"start":10055.151,"end":10083.691,"text":"必要的範圍那麼濫權者應該要施以必要的問責那麼問責的條文就放在這增列的14個條文那也跟大家報告一下目前因為我們平行審查的關係《刑事訴訟法》的專章跟我們專法的科偵法一個是屬於制定法那制定法的部分要增設這些條文內容是目前我們經過協商就可以去處理的"},{"start":10084.972,"end":10114.39,"text":"但是如果相關的這些內容問責的條款如果是放在刑事訴訟法的話由於刑事訴訟法這次的修正的專章當中並沒有涵蓋這些究責的條文所以可能會在刑事上沒有辦法安插進去那這點先跟各位協商代表說明那是否我們今天可以就這個部分那予以認可後我們再交給院長去進行未來立法例的選擇的協商以上說明"},{"start":10116.684,"end":10142.31,"text":"第一個我還是說我的結論之前就已經講好了這個部分要併同協商所以這個部分我就沒有辦法同意第二個現在中國國民黨人也不在對啊我們接下來的討論也不會有什麼太實質的意義第三個部分就違反強制處分相對應刑事處罰的部分你違反強制處分的時候"},{"start":10143.427,"end":10172.159,"text":"本來就有後續他有上面的法律效果嘛所以就現在的這個部分我尊重民主進步黨黨團你們要提修正動議等等的權利我沒意見但我要說的事情是這兩個案子在立法的形式上面我們必須要先處理這件事情處理完了以後再往下走我認為才有意義第二個部分現在中國國民黨黨團的代表也不在了你再下去也不可能有任何解約論嘛"},{"start":10173.559,"end":10201.235,"text":"我是基於禮貌因為剛剛昭偉特別請我留下來所以我坐下來我很清楚的把我的意見跟昭偉報告好謝謝那因為現在今天的協商代表欸那個剛剛已經協商代表簽了字了嗎簽了OK那我們就做這個處理啦就沒辦法因為就保留啊這就沒有結論啦協商沒有結論啦好那麼第幾案啊那個是第幾案"},{"start":10202.283,"end":10225.547,"text":"剛第二案主席我還是想說一下好那請說因為我自己也是司法法制委員會委員在審柯真法通保法的過程我也都在場我真的沒有認知到什麼叫當初都說好了這個我一定要講而且就正常的"},{"start":10227.233,"end":10247.512,"text":"議事程序既然有他就是兩個法嘛對不對國民黨的召委牌刑訴民進黨的召委牌柯真而事實上不同政黨提的刑訴的內容也都是使用行政院版的柯真法的內容的條文啊"},{"start":10248.908,"end":10259.133,"text":"所以我覺得這個主跟副就我自己有很清楚的認知我認為柯真法在行政部門負責任我們委員負責任的詢答主條討論"},{"start":10260.899,"end":10288.037,"text":"那所謂的要併案協商那個也是兩個不同委員審查的不同的案子如果要併也是後面在韓國瑜院長在朝野協商在二讀的時候處理的時候去處置的所以我是覺得很遺憾今天課程法大家打詐這麼關切大家都說希望在7月16號之前會期結束之前趕快能夠來上路回應社會的期待"},{"start":10288.897,"end":10308.862,"text":"所以今天我們民進黨非常負責任的針對上次在逐條討論的過程各黨委員提出《柯真法》如何去強化人權的保障搭配新興的打詐的利器我們方方面面兼顧負責任的提出修正動議"},{"start":10310.262,"end":10326.233,"text":"那今天國民黨的委員離席然後民眾黨的總召他個人的認知認為今天沒有辦法進行協商我要在這裡說明我覺得時間我們在跟時間賽跑每天都有這麼多的詐騙案件在"},{"start":10328.646,"end":10334.871,"text":"等著我們政府來偵辦所以我一定要表達這個我從來沒有覺得這個兩個法今天沒有辦法在這裡完成協商我覺得非常非常遺憾我要代表民進黨黨團那也希望其他黨團雖然離席了但是民進黨團的負責任的可行的經過審慎評估檢討之後的修正動議也希望各黨團的委員可以帶回去"},{"start":10357.97,"end":10376.358,"text":"好好的思考研議後續能夠加速協商的審查我再次要表達這樣子的認知錯誤所造成的沒有辦法今天實質協商柯真法的部分我是覺得非常的遺憾也要對社會來致歉"},{"start":10379.144,"end":10394.801,"text":"好我想那個今天主席在這邊跟委員報告跟與會代表說明因為本來我們是第一案第二案第三案那因為第一案因為是涉及到立法體力有刑事訴訟法有另案有國民黨的召委在進行主持協商"},{"start":10395.902,"end":10408.612,"text":"科證法的部分雖然有修正動議提出希望能夠爭取委員的認同但是在場因為委員不在所以我們就做如下的一個宣告那麼本日協商第二"},{"start":10411.236,"end":10436.989,"text":"議題應仍待繼續溝通取得共識所以呢我們就另外那本日協商過程發言內容均已錄音錄影並列入記錄討論過程中有共識之部分將作為後續協商依據應仍有條文內容留待繼續溝通依例不作結論簽名後續依立法院職權行事法第十二章相關規定另定期繼續協商那麼謝謝各位散會"},{"start":10439.936,"end":10443.294,"text":"兩案處理好了 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{"start":2994.377,"end":3012.279,"text":"二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員會報告併案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人擬具︰"},{"start":3017.898,"end":3035.18,"text":"好,謝謝主席,這一條當初說的就是那個黑美卡的這個防制措施啦那因為我們當初提的想法是因為有些國外提供的這種跨國賣油服務嘛他其實在購買這樣相關的SIM卡的時候是沒有任何實名制的機制的嘛"},{"start":3035.62,"end":3047.994,"text":"那也就是變成詐騙集團去利用的這樣子的一個破口那我們覺得問題很嚴重所以當初提修正動議的概念就是說要變成因為他們都要跟我我國的這個電信業者做借接嘛才能夠去使用服務"},{"start":3048.547,"end":3070.416,"text":"所以它變成一個臨櫃登記的一個程序就強迫等於在強迫在我國境內完成實名制的這個登錄手續啦當初大概行政院端是覺得說這東西怕知識體大衝擊太大所以行政院的版本是說做護照號碼的登錄啦做護照號碼的登錄那後來我們這個行政院這邊NCE這邊有來辦公室做協商"},{"start":3071.016,"end":3093.454,"text":"那協商最後的結果是我還是希望實名制的精神可以保存所以既然說電信中間有辦法透過輸入護照號碼的方式來處理那我就要求就是輸入護照號碼加上護照持有人的姓名用這樣子的方式雙重把關這樣也可以避免大家只是單純去取得一組護照號碼就可以冒名使用這件事情有號碼有名字可以交叉比對"},{"start":3093.814,"end":3094.154,"text":"法條修正"},{"start":3113.239,"end":3130.776,"text":"這個修正完的版本那另外一個部分是我們有講嘛是這個當初要輸入護照號碼是為了要查詢他是在他是有沒有出境嘛但我覺得除了出境是否出境之外還有預期停留跟拘留這樣一個事情那這這個後面這件事情在當天委員會審查的時候就已經達成共識了"},{"start":3131.917,"end":3158.553,"text":"所以我唸一下最新的修正條文的版本如果大家同意我們就按照這個修正條文來處理就我們要把它改成電信事業提供境外高風險電信事業提供之全部或一部國際漫遊服務前於技術可行下應依前項第一項資料庫認證電信使用人之護照號碼及姓名就我們直接把它入法啦讓登記什麼直接很清楚經查證使用電信人如"},{"start":3159.553,"end":3188.593,"text":"無入境資料者不得提供國際漫遊服務但經使用電信人向電信事業臨櫃提示身份證明文件供核對及登錄後得提供國際漫遊服務電信事業應提供前項電信服務後應借接第一項資料庫並定期查詢該使用電信人是否出境或預期停留或拘留電信事業提供第一項電信服務後發現使用電信人有資料不實異常使用行為或依前項查詢以出境或預期停留"},{"start":3189.413,"end":3214.967,"text":"或拘留時應限制或停止提供該項電信服務後面都跟行政院版本一樣那另外我們在中間溝通的過程中這個也有人提醒就是說因為你講的所謂叫於技術可行可能會形成另外的漏洞但是如果我們一直在談論這些細節的話很有可能這法條到最後都不會有結果所以我希望除了修正條文照我們的版本通過之外"},{"start":3216.047,"end":3241.692,"text":"我希望再做一個附帶決議啦看在黨團協商的這個機制來做附帶決議可以也就是一年之後我們要針對這一條的執行成效提出完整的報告到底這個機制有沒有辦法有效防範黑媒卡我們在一段時間之後法條上路的一年之後我們要有足夠的數據資料來做檢討如果他有必要再修正再加嚴的時候大家也有憑有據所以我今天來這邊協商大概這兩個要求是否有當我們就大家討論一下謝謝"},{"start":3243.139,"end":3243.159,"text":"蕭政東議員"},{"start":3269.527,"end":3273.248,"text":"那第二十條就照牛刑庭委員的修正動議通過有沒有問題"},{"start":3297.244,"end":3302.525,"text":"二十條就照牛刑庭委員的修正動議通過二十條就照牛刑庭委員的修正動議通過我們現在討論第44條"},{"start":3328.703,"end":3334.485,"text":"來44條修正動議有麥一貞委員、習以貞委員、劉行廷委員提出的修正動議行廷要說明還是以貞要說明來劉行廷委員是第58頁、習以貞委員是第51頁"},{"start":3356.499,"end":3359.703,"text":"我們有提這個法條的內容有點拗口,但概念是這樣"},{"start":3371.114,"end":3392.185,"text":"本來的條文是說在中華民國領域之外以供詐欺犯罪所用之設備對於中華民國領域之內的犯罪也就是說是在境外提供設備啦但我們就想說既然都有這樣的法條就是不只是境外提供設備境外直接詐欺犯罪也應該要納入懲罰嘛所以我們的法條是在中華民國領域外"},{"start":3392.825,"end":3411.616,"text":"或以在中華民國領域外提供詐欺犯罪所用設備對中華民國領域內的犯罪加重期刑概念上是這樣也就是說在境外你不管是本人設詐或者是提供相關的工具都要加重期刑這是我們44條我們修正版本的精神我想這樣應該會比較完備以上"},{"start":3413.746,"end":3417.208,"text":"本來行政院版本是在中華民國領域外以供詐欺犯罪設備對中華民國領域內的販資"},{"start":3437,"end":3458.575,"text":"換句話說,那個無論是人、共犯在國外,或者設備在國外,本來就在我們行政院版本含澀的範圍之內啦。所以劉偉寧提的,其實事實上在原來條文就已經含澀在我們原來的條文範圍之內了。他是在……我們44條的第二款"},{"start":3461.841,"end":3490.96,"text":"無論是人在國外或者設備在國外他只要有一樣東西在國外對國內進行犯罪就構成加重的要件了確定喔?對沒錯沒錯有嗎?有問題喔好我們法務部處長所提出聲明好我們牛心亭委員、習一貞委員好來謝謝習一貞主席我那個只是調次的所以主要是牛心亭委員的這個版本"},{"start":3493.479,"end":3494.18,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3516.196,"end":3544.182,"text":"是不是做一下說明我剛才跟委員報告我們條文是在中華民國領域外以供設備對國內進行販資所以只要是人或設備在國外都包括他如果在境外但是他沒有使用設備因為你講法條內容是講說以供詐欺犯罪所用之設備他如果沒有用設備就他是個人或是用其他的形態"},{"start":3545.287,"end":3573.42,"text":"口頭或什麼樣的方式詐騙口頭應該不太可能啦因為一個在國內一個在國內沒有提供設備的狀況之下對那在國外沒有進行沒有用設備進行電詐這不可想像啊就是說不可想像說在國外沒有用設備反而對國內進行詐欺所以基本上你們在法條詮釋的時候只要在國外對國內就一定會有設備的問題就對了對對對那國外他基本上他國外又有機房嘛對國內進行詐騙無法想像就是說在國外人在國外卻沒有"},{"start":3574.5,"end":3574.641,"text":"設備進行對國內進行詐騙"},{"start":3578.598,"end":3603.328,"text":"我們正是在處罰這個境外的機房對境外的機房對國內進行詐騙那如果是這樣那我就不堅持啦但是我是覺得要稍微清楚一點那也請法務部回去思考一下有沒有一些特殊的形態比如說教唆或什麼樣的方式我覺得其實反正大家都支持這種做詐騙的事情要罰得越重越好所以也請法務部做一下思考啦目前這樣我們為了不耽誤法條的進度我們就不堅持了謝謝"},{"start":3606.479,"end":3617.167,"text":"好 謝謝我們劉欣庭委員那針對我們法務部的聲明我們還是照行政院版通過好不好好好來來好44條好美華33委員"},{"start":3620.487,"end":3640.642,"text":"謝謝主席我想我們的台灣民眾黨的版本主要是針對44條上次的43條他們講的是金額那現在44條講的是集體那集體的概念那我們是認為說只有三人以上不等於有組織犯罪所以我們希望還是能夠納入"},{"start":3643.923,"end":3667.628,"text":"三九之四第一項各款並犯組織犯罪的這個部分能夠加進來因為第一項只有三人以上但是要到組織犯罪的話其實並沒有特別再加重我們的版本是希望在已經到組織犯罪的程度的部分另外再加一個加重的條款所以這個是這個版本的第一項"},{"start":3669.568,"end":3694.978,"text":"第二、第三項、第四項這兩條我們希望能夠加上去好 謝謝 謝謝我們黃珊珊委員那是不是請我們法務部來做說明跟主席及法務委員報告事實上法務部的行政院版本事實上它是比較客觀上操作上可行你只要客觀上它的共犯達到3人以上就把它加重那如果按照這個就是我們黃委員或民眾黨版本的話它必須要犯組織犯罪條例"},{"start":3696.198,"end":3711.074,"text":"實際上我們犯罪組織條例在實務上要成立的可能性是相對的困難因為組織犯罪條例有它的構成要件要有集團性、要有牟利性、要有結構性非常複雜的一個構成要件所以事實上反而日後在實務上要去審查它是不是構成組織"},{"start":3712.615,"end":3732.631,"text":"這個反而是困難的。這第一點。第二點呢,如果說這個又把組織把規範成犯罪構成要件的話,是不是會有重複評價的問題?什麼意思叫重複評價呢?就是說我們組織犯罪條例已經在評價這個集團一次了。你現在又在我們家種裡面再把評價一次,就等於這一個行為被評價了兩次。"},{"start":3734.392,"end":3746.267,"text":"所以說本部的立場是希望就能夠照院版的通過用客觀數字超過共犯3人以上我就把加重未來在事務上是具有可操作性的以上補充謝謝"},{"start":3751.72,"end":3768.164,"text":"三人以上是你們第一項第二款用三人以上的方式去犯用三人以上的方式去犯會加重期刑但他如果到組織犯罪的程度有沒有再加重"},{"start":3768.664,"end":3793.42,"text":"根文報告,他如果犯組織犯罪條例的話,另外我們就用《刑法上想像進合》去做,衝一重處斷,不會把這個想像進合調給吃掉了。他如果這個組織犯罪條例比較重,我們就論那個組織犯罪要不要。所以確認,確認他有組織犯罪的情況下,他就會更重的狀態。對對對對對。反正公報商都有,以後不要變成說中間有漏掉,不會掛一漏萬。對不會不會,他如果一行為同時犯"},{"start":3793.961,"end":3798.717,"text":"詐欺跟組織犯罪條例用重的想像進合就按照想像進合範圍去處理重重阻斷"},{"start":3799.481,"end":3823.773,"text":"如果是濟民說他已經是三人以上,然後如果到組織犯罪的程度,他會更加重的情況,那就可以超越這個法條本身的重度。對,他如果另外再構成組織犯罪條例,我們組織犯罪條例的組織發起那是最很重。對,我們主要是要抓那個首謀啦,主要是要抓首謀跟這些粗點子,然後沒有在裡面實際行為的人,這些人要把他揪出來。"},{"start":3824.913,"end":3827.094,"text":"四條就照行政院的提案好不好"},{"start":3849.633,"end":3877.33,"text":"好,那大家還沒有意見沒有意見我們就照行政院版通過謝謝好,現在我們49條49條的修正動議有徐以貞委員、牛行廷委員還有司法院的版本"},{"start":3881.359,"end":3882.719,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3904.23,"end":3923.259,"text":"報告主席以及在座的委員先進。司法院提的版本是另列第二項。前項規定行為人如屬少年應依少年事件處理法相關規定辦理。本條是因為我們少事法第81條對於我們的少年假釋的部分有另外特別的要件。"},{"start":3924.139,"end":3940.453,"text":"跟這個詐欺危害防制條例草案的第49條的要件有一些不一樣為求這個法律的解讀的這個是一致性避免矛盾所以建議增列第二項然後另外在立法理由的部分也增列第四點的說明以上補充報告"},{"start":3949.994,"end":3951.575,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3980.181,"end":4006.202,"text":"現在我們處理第57條57條的修正動議我習以珍委員我們所提出的修正動議請我們習以珍委員來做說明57條也是條次57條也是條次這樣喔好那我們就照行政院提案修正通過好不好好謝謝"},{"start":4010.572,"end":4010.973,"text":"主席"},{"start":4029.056,"end":4054.115,"text":"好,那我們回過頭來我們現在是不是我們休息三分鐘好不好我們金管會跟我們習政委員來做說明好不好現在休息三分鐘"},{"start":4061.561,"end":4061.601,"text":"主席響鐘"},{"start":4092.948,"end":4094.409,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4122.962,"end":4145.451,"text":"二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、台灣民眾黨黨及委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、委員何欣純等21人�"},{"start":4148.573,"end":4174.092,"text":"二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員會報告併案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、"},{"start":4176.52,"end":4198.792,"text":"二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員會報告併案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防"},{"start":4199.412,"end":4224.643,"text":"二、委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、台灣民眾黨黨及委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防"},{"start":4228.829,"end":4229.81,"text":"負責擬負責擬負"},{"start":4248.805,"end":4275.986,"text":"二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）事由：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4278.047,"end":4278.527,"text":"太離譜了啊"},{"start":4303.394,"end":4304.715,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4321.673,"end":4321.853,"text":"主席響鐘"},{"start":4341.384,"end":4344.927,"text":"市長有準備這個動議,到時候發生什麼?檢復職昨天在部長班是給的"},{"start":4360.373,"end":4370,"text":"對 修正動議通過條例是有問題嗎?對 它這個原來的14、15現在我們這次有修正改了是就不行了洗防法 你們看那是用這個單本嗎?對對對華語是在證實 他說我們是司法的啊 他們是內政的啊"},{"start":4383.91,"end":4384.671,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4404.056,"end":4404.516,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4425.659,"end":4426.74,"text":"一、本院內政委員"},{"start":4453.337,"end":4453.978,"text":"投票結果"},{"start":4937.932,"end":4938.233,"text":"第44條條文"},{"start":4950.6,"end":4974.066,"text":"我們法務部次長說條文內容有關洗錢防治法之條次有變更因此44條我們就照本席所提出的修正動議通過我們手上大家都有花了吧好大家有沒有意見"},{"start":4975.445,"end":4982.25,"text":"沒意見我們就照修正條文通過我們繼續處理互代決議互代決議的議案請我們議事人員先讀一下"},{"start":4995.438,"end":5022.533,"text":"本法公布施行後一年相關機關應就第20條規定之時行程效及實務運作情形擬具報告到院必供本院委員評估是否再行修正提案人委員牛許廷等五人宣布完畢謝謝各位委員有沒有意見沒意見我們就照牛許廷委員的修正動議通過現在要補充宣告我們審查通過的不再決定第二項"},{"start":5025.97,"end":5050.445,"text":"現在我們審查通過的附帶結議第二項有關我們後段新台幣一千萬元配合法條的更正為五百萬元一併宣告修正OK嗎?好 謝謝我們到修正動議通過"},{"start":5052.172,"end":5052.372,"text":"先讀協商結論"},{"start":5067.078,"end":5093.784,"text":"宣讀立法院朝野黨團協商結論時間113年6月18日上午9時15分至10時14分地點紅樓302會議室協商主題併案審查行政院函請審議、台灣民眾黨黨團及委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具〈詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案〉二、委員何欣純等21人擬具〉詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案協商結論一"},{"start":5096.893,"end":5118.4,"text":"協商通過關五一照行政院提案通過者為第五十七條,照協商條文通過為第二十條、第四十四條、第四十九條如復見。二、保留條文第八條、第十一條、第十二條、第十三條,送院會處理。三、通過互待決議一項。"},{"start":5120.305,"end":5143.549,"text":"通過互代決議兩項,是其遭審查結果通過。五、條文調適引述條文之文字及相關法制用於授權主席及醫生院整理。宣讀完畢。好,各位委員有沒有意見?好,沒意見。好,謝謝。那我們都照我們協商的結論通過。謝謝。"},{"start":5152.516,"end":5154.217,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"16048","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16048","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609a6bbc86a65e9b4f8ad9f551ce5fa921f627684c85f64cd7bab652ef1b80794cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-28","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-28T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T16:30:00+08:00","duration":28785,"影片長度":"07:59:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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rt":2354.104,"end":2370.828,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":2371.749,"end":2390.172,"text":"報充分尊重和保護政府任何部門都不應該干涉立法的過程而業務繁雜過勞高薪職的比例工時過長人力不足輪班機制有缺失"},{"start":2390.773,"end":2399.009,"text":"一切的根源都源於沒有工會的保障而被剝奪於行政機構對等協商的權利。"},{"start":2401.877,"end":2426.617,"text":"我聲援消防人員主公會讓消防人員有一個平台對政治利益的介入與干預而能專心於救火救人的本業希望消防署能秉持同理心不要再用言語中、討論中這種敷衍的藉口確保政治"},{"start":2428.257,"end":2444.852,"text":"制定和實施過程中納入第一線的消防同仁的聲音和需求。呼應政府不要對消防同仁打假球。請尊重消防人員的安全與權益。消防同仁加油!臺灣加油!謝謝!謝謝半議員的發言。接下來請登記第4號陳金威委員發言。"},{"start":2464.895,"end":2493.65,"text":"主席、各位官員、各位委員、媒體朋友、大家早安。我今天要講的題目是Taiwan Needs HelpTaiwan Needs HelpTaiwan Needs Help我要很沉重地呼籲臺灣現在面臨非常嚴峻的護理荒、輸疫荒、各層級的醫療院所、基層醫師們都在哀嚎、急診湧射、關病床、"},{"start":2494.33,"end":2495.251,"text":"台灣CanHelp!"},{"start":2515.551,"end":2531.317,"text":"現在呢,我們竟然要透過海外專案來進口,以兩到三倍的價格購買輸液。到底發生了什麼事?短短的一個月,我們從Taiwan can help變成Taiwan needs help。"},{"start":2532.287,"end":2559.635,"text":"缺乏輸液不只是醫療問題,更是國安危機。如此基本物資幾乎是所有急診、住院、手術都會需要的。如果近期不幸發生重大公安事件或天災意外,我完全不敢想像在醫療現場煉獄般的畫面,哀嚎、怒吼、缺輸液、缺醫護人手、還缺藥品。"},{"start":2560.835,"end":2584.126,"text":"現在各層級的醫院也正面臨著護理師人力不足的問題但因為衛福部只能提供特定容量的生理鹹水導致在整個手術或是洗腎過程中護理師必須不斷地去打開不同容液的輸液更是在我們現在護理師荒的議題上雪上加霜"},{"start":2585.146,"end":2600.94,"text":"而書議會大缺最根本的原因就是健保給付對藥品的點值設定過低,最終沒有任何廠家願意生產,淪為一家或少數幾家獨佔的市場,一旦出狀況就會跟現在一樣釀成大災難。"},{"start":2605.287,"end":2629.41,"text":"我也必須說這場事件就是衛福部造成的人禍因為去年12月11月食藥署就公告出事的廠家輸液出現黑色的懸浮粒需要緊急回收表示衛福部跟食藥署早就知道兩個重大的警訊第一是品管有問題"},{"start":2630.451,"end":2647.229,"text":"）二、這個廠商占市場比例高達八成）如果有突發狀況）就會一發不可收拾）結果我們是毫無作為）最後呢）說輸易供貨穩定要到10月份）是不是表示接下來4個月臺灣"},{"start":2652.97,"end":2660.078,"text":"謝謝陳敬威委員的發言。報告委員會現在登記國是論壇發言的委員均已發言完畢。我們現在休息。"},{"start":5403.001,"end":5421.996,"text":"發言委員現在我們繼續開會。請秘書長報告出席人數。發言委員出席為53年已足法定人數。我們現在開會進行報告事項。請秘書長宣讀第一會期第19次會議意思錄。宣讀六案第11屆第一會期第19次會議意思錄。時間中華民國113年6月21日上午9時至9時27分、10時至10時16分、6月25日"},{"start":5429.682,"end":5457.378,"text":"上午9時20分至12時下午1時50分至1時55分20分至30分至45分地點北越異常出席委員、盧委員、縣議等113人、內席官員、行政院院長卓榮泰等12人、主席院長韓國瑜、副院長江啟臣。報告事項第一案宣讀第11屆第1會期第18次會議意思錄決定確定。第二案第4至31案均決定交互相關委員會審查。第三案決定"},{"start":5458.158,"end":5482.714,"text":"進入報讀與相關提案並按協商執行事項甲﹚行政院答覆部門奧見與本院委員執行部門奧見。護議案則處理事項﹚決議立完執行行事法修正部門條文及中華民國憲法增訂第五章之一章名及第141條之一條文護議案本院原決議均予以維持﹚對行政院院長報告施政方針"},{"start":5484.756,"end":5508.929,"text":"繼續質詢決定下次會議進行經濟組織質詢討論事項第一次商案均決議含請行政院員處第四案決議另定期處理宣讀完畢報告委員會針對第一會期第19次會議的意思錄並無委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處我們做以下決定第一會期第19次會議意思錄我們確定請宣讀第二案"},{"start":5509.673,"end":5521.834,"text":"第2案 本院委員李婚晨的19人離聚,勞動基準法第20條及第20條之一條文修正常案請選一案。程序委員會見,臨時委員會交 社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣言完畢"},{"start":5522.557,"end":5549.268,"text":"第二案,無異通過下案。第三案,本院委員李關誠等19人鄰居,性別平等工作法第15條條文修正常案情緒一案,程序委員會見,理情會交,社會福利及外相環境委員會審查,宣讀外閉。無異通過下案。第四案,本院委員李關誠等19人鄰居,就業服務法第5條條文修正常案情緒一案,程序委員會見,理情會交,社會福利及外相環境委員會審查,宣讀外閉。無異通過下案。"},{"start":5549.648,"end":5570.811,"text":"第五案,北越委員吳麗華等16人離聚,並暫管理條例第21條11條維修正財運清水案。陳修緣會間,理情委員會交到內政委員會審查,宣傳完畢。第六案,北越委員林楚英等21人離聚,青年基本法財運清水案。陳修緣會間,理情委員會交到教育及文化委員會審查,宣傳完畢。"},{"start":5571.591,"end":5573.052,"text":"第七案．第八案．第八案．"},{"start":5596.277,"end":5618.584,"text":"報告院會報告事項第8案現由國民黨黨團體近乎二讀與相關提案併案協商請問院會有無異議?沒有異議通過我們下一案第9案委員員蘇清泉的二十九人離去就業服務法第四十六條條文修正常情緒一案程序委員會建立行會教育社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳完畢"},{"start":5619.775,"end":5641.332,"text":"報告事項第9案,現有國民黨黨團體近乎二讀與相關提案並案協商。請問院會有無異議,免議通過下一案。第10案,本院委員蘇慶璇的26人鄰居老人福利法第22條條維修政策案請選一案。程序委員會間,你請委員會交社會福利及溫暖環境委員會審查,宣言完畢。"},{"start":5642.134,"end":5666.455,"text":"報告委員會報告事項第10案,現有國民黨黨團提議,近乎二讀與相關提案並案協商,請問有無異議?沒有異議,通過下一案。第11案,本院委員蘇清泉等17人離去勞工保險條例第63條文書證草原侵水案,程序委員會接地勤會教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查,宣傳異議。無異議,通過下一案。"},{"start":5666.795,"end":5689.348,"text":"第12案本月委員洪孟凱等16人離聚保險法第177條條文修正常案請審議案陳秀園會見理情匯交財政委員會審查 宣言完畢第13案本月委員洪孟凱等16人離聚高級中等交易法第32條條文修正常案請審議案陳秀園會見理情匯交交易及文化委員會審查 宣言完畢"},{"start":5690.769,"end":5719.328,"text":"第14案 北越委員洪孟凱等18人離聚,學校凡人及其所屬私立學校教職員退休復讐離職之前條例第8條條文修正常情水銀案。陳秀妍會見理行會教司法及法制教育及文化兩務委員會審查。宣言完畢。第15案 北越委員令一卿等24人離聚,私立學校法第39條及第57條條文修正常情水銀案。陳秀妍會見理行會教教育及文化兩務委員會審查。宣言完畢。"},{"start":5720.909,"end":5744.904,"text":"第16案本月委員陳學生的20年年居北疆語言方針法第16條條無修正草原情緒因案陳修緣會見理情會教教育及文化委員會審查宣布完畢第17案本月委員陳學生的20年年居濱源地區學校教育發展條例第8條條無修正草原情緒因案陳修緣會見理情會教教育及文化委員會審查宣布完畢"},{"start":5746.385,"end":5766.94,"text":"第18案本院委員陳學生等20人凝聚偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18條條文修正財運情勢一案陳修園會見尼勤會教教育及文化委員會審查宣傳閉第19案本院委員李燕秀等17人凝聚都市更新條例第65條條文修正財運情勢一案陳修園會見尼勤會教內政委員會審查宣傳閉"},{"start":5771.883,"end":5792.658,"text":"第20案,為議員林思敏等16日離聚,農村再生條例第二條及第7條條文修正草原清水案。陳秀園會見,理事委員會將經濟文化審查宣布完畢。報告院會報告事項第20案,現有國民黨團體禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商。請問院會有沒有異議?沒有異議通過。我們下一案。"},{"start":5793.157,"end":5819.337,"text":"第21案本院委員陳少明等16人離去勞工保險條例第63條條維修正常勤選案陳修元會見你請回交社會福利及外相環境委員會審查 宣言完畢無疑通過下案第22案本院委員徐玉珍等18人離去身心障礙者選疫保障法第53條條維修正常勤選案陳修元會見你請回交社會福利及外相環境委員會審查 宣言完畢無疑通過下案"},{"start":5819.718,"end":5847.2,"text":"第二十三案本院委員邱振軍等19人離聚身心障礙者權益保障法第53條條維修正常案請水恩前序委員會見你請回交社會福利及外商環境委員會審查宣布完畢第二十四案本院委員邱振軍等21人離聚國民年金法第15條集體50條條維修正常案請水恩前序委員會見你請回交社會福利及外商環境委員會審查宣布完畢第二十四案"},{"start":5847.6,"end":5859.084,"text":"第25案本院委員黃仁等21人聯聚援助民族基本法第6條條文修正草原侵水案。陳秀媛會見您請回交內政委員會審查。宣布完畢無疑通過下一案"},{"start":5871.269,"end":5895.332,"text":"第二十七案本月委員黃仁等二十人聯聚原住民族基本法陣列第28條之一條文草案請水案。展秀委員會議見臨時會交內政委員會審查。宣傳完畢第二十八案本月委員黃仁等二十人聯聚老人福利法第二條條文修正草案請水案展秀委員會議見臨時會交社會福利修正環境委員會審查。宣傳完畢五一通過下一案"},{"start":5895.652,"end":5905.601,"text":"第29案本院委員嚴冠案等17年離聚中小企業發展條例第36條及2條維修正常勞勤稅案。前續委員會見例行會交經濟委員會審查,宣布外幣。報告委員會報告事項第29案現有國民黨黨團體禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商。請問委員會有異議。"},{"start":5917.091,"end":5928.071,"text":"沒有異議,我們通過。報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁盯的是美國回來的所有的華僑朋友。歡迎大家,我們掌聲鼓勵,歡迎歡迎。"},{"start":5929.898,"end":5936.881,"text":"下議案第31案本院委員羅廷偉等19人凝聚財政收支劃分法部分條維修政策案請審議案。陳秀妍會議間臨時會交財政委員會審查。 宣告完畢無疑通過下議案"},{"start":5954.71,"end":5976.378,"text":"第32案本委員徐繳興等17人離聚動物保護法部分條維修正常請申議案。程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會審查,宣布外幣。第33案本委員邱若驊等17人離聚社會秩序維護法第64條條維修正常請申議案。程序委員會見你請回交內政委員會審查,宣布外幣。"},{"start":5977.799,"end":6001.025,"text":"第34案本院委員邱若驊等19人離聚社會秩序維護法第72條條文修正草原情緒一案陳秀元會見你請回交內政委員會審查宣布完畢無異通過下議案第35案本院委員盧憲怡等22人離聚都市原住民族無法審條例草原情緒一案陳秀元會見你請回交內政委員會審查宣布完畢無異通過下議案"},{"start":6002.045,"end":6020.934,"text":"第36案（本院委員羅廷偉等18人離聚職務者流失法草案請選一案（程序委員會見你請回家後經濟委員會審查（宣言完畢第37案（本院委員蘇星泉等24人離聚口腔衛生人員法草案請選一案（程序委員會見你請回家後社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查（宣言完畢"},{"start":6023.635,"end":6049.23,"text":"李三十八案本院委員林俊賢等18日臨時學生輔導法第11條及第11條之一條為修正草案請審議案。陳秀元會議見李秀元教育及文化委員會審查宣布完畢。李三十九案本院委員吳麗華等18日臨時社會救助法第5條之二第11條及第21條條為修正草案請審議案。陳秀元會議見李秀元教育社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣布完畢。"},{"start":6049.89,"end":6051.572,"text":"五一通過下議案五一通過下議案五一通過下議案"},{"start":6072.293,"end":6072.874,"text":"第42案．第43案．"},{"start":6092.133,"end":6120.512,"text":"無異通過下議案。第44案本院委員令引進理政委前提之青年基本法層文案。陳修永會見理政委統一撤回。宣告完畢。無異通過下議案。第45案本院委員令引進理政委前提之數位新聞發展與民主任性法層文案。陳修永會見理政委統一撤回。宣告完畢。無異通過下議案。第46案行政院海警隨意新住民權益保障法層文案。陳修永會見理政委交內政委員會審查。宣告完畢。"},{"start":6121.209,"end":6146.621,"text":"報告院會報告事項第46案,現有民進黨黨團提議禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商。請問院會有異議?沒有異議,通過下一案。第47案,行政院罕請選議職務整領釋法採文案,程序委員會間領行會交經濟委員會審查,宣傳完畢。無異議,通過下一案。第48案,行政院罕請選議國一台灣鐵路股份有限公司稅制條例第10條及第23條條維修證採文案,"},{"start":6149.242,"end":6149.562,"text":"無異議通過下案無異議通過下案"},{"start":6166.047,"end":6181.414,"text":"第五十案,教育部行會該部一百十三年度預算,學生事務與特殊教育行政及督導向下經常門業務費等經費不足,同時第一預備金新台幣一六千一百四十一萬七千元,程序委員會建立行會教育界文化委員會,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6182.895,"end":6202.888,"text":"第51案（行政院衡委考慮宣布,擴大推動國家考試電腦化測驗所需經費不敷,同時113年度中央政府總預算第二月備金8,810萬4千元之印,自檢送第二月備金同時數額及官別票,程序委員會議見,履行會交財政司法及法治兩委員會。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6204.609,"end":6217.578,"text":"第52案 行政院總公告中華民國113年4月3日花蓮震災災區範圍新增新北市部分,並自113年4月3日生效財修委員會見,引請回交內政委員會 宣布完畢"},{"start":6219.119,"end":6247.254,"text":"第53案,經濟委員會本月第11屆第一會期第11次會議權益,要求經濟部針對臺灣準點能源政策,定價費率結構及臺電公司相關各項支出及遵截措施,向本月經濟委員會提出全面檢討報告,檢討經濟部延長說明資料。陳秀元會見,理事委會前後經濟委員會。宣讀完畢。報告委員會本案由臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查。本案交經濟委員會審查。下一案"},{"start":6247.779,"end":6273.912,"text":"第五十四案．經濟委員會本月第11屆第一會期第11次會議決議．立即停止調賞電價．並要求該院責准商會部會即刻檢討現行的原政策．並提出因應對策與配套措施一案．結送經濟部嚴處說明資料．程序委員會見．立行會交經濟委員會宣讀完畢報告委員會本案由臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查本案交經濟委員會審查下一案"},{"start":6274.366,"end":6275.147,"text":"第55案）第56案）第56案）"},{"start":6305.29,"end":6324.347,"text":"第57案（內政務海外修正國家駐載及都市更新中心董事長董事監視聆聽辦法第二條條文,程序委員會見,您請回交內政委員會,宣布外閉。第58案（內政務海外修正內政務移民署人員服事辦法,程序委員會見,您請回交內政委員會,宣布外閉。"},{"start":6325.083,"end":6327.846,"text":"五、一通過下議案五、一通過下議案五、一通過下議案"},{"start":6349.966,"end":6363.423,"text":"第61案海洋委員會航運修正海洋委員會海巡署偵查分數編制表並自112年10月26日生效程序委員會見立即會將司法及法律內政兩委員會宣讀完畢。為通過下一案"},{"start":6363.929,"end":6383.376,"text":"第62案國防部海文修正國軍軍官使館請教規則第6條條文陳修緣會見李行輝強外交及國防委員會宣讀完畢第63案強武委員會海文修正強武文教財團法人應適用財團法人法第24條第二項規定之財產總額及傳信經營規範指導原則第16點規定陳修緣會見李行輝強外交及國防委員會宣讀完畢"},{"start":6391.179,"end":6403.322,"text":"第64案 農業部委員會修正白袋魚出口應遵行施生 第2點、第4點規定及第3點附件一、第6點附件二﹐程序委員會見臨時公會交通經濟委員會 宣讀完畢第65案 農業部委員會非准許新建業農業委員會 會議規則﹐程序委員會見臨時公會交通經濟委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6413.025,"end":6424.802,"text":"第66案 農業部海外修正農民健康保險及農民職業災害保險專業事項審議本法 第1條、第2條、第24條條文件、第3條副表 程序委員會見您請回交經濟委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6427.426,"end":6435.095,"text":"第67案 農業部衡議期間與農業委員會、農田水利署、彰化管理署、農田水利設施範圍 名稱修正為 農業部農田水利署、彰化管理署、農田水利設施範圍並修正設施範圍 程序委員會見 您請回交經濟委員會 宣布完畢"},{"start":6445.106,"end":6451.711,"text":"第68案 農業部外匯修正農業部農田水利署臺中管理處農田水利設施範圍陳秀營會見臨時匯交經濟委員會 宣布完畢第69案 農業部外匯修正農業部農田水利署營覽管理處農田水利設施範圍陳秀營會見臨時匯交經濟委員會 宣布完畢"},{"start":6466.283,"end":6478.627,"text":"第七十二、金融監督管理委員會海外修正、財政部保險業辦理資訊公開管理辦法第8條、第13條條文、集權稅保險業辦理資訊公開管理辦法第8條、第13條條文、財政委員會宣布完畢。第七十一、金融監督管理委員會交通部海外修正、強制汽車責任保險費率表及強制汽車責任保險期間、財政委員會宣布完畢。"},{"start":6496.26,"end":6518.731,"text":"報告委員會本案由臺灣民眾黨黨團體改交審查本案交財政及交通兩委員會審查下一案第七選案國家通訊消防委員會函送電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法程序委員會間旅行會交交通委員會宣傳完畢報告委員會本案由臺灣民眾黨黨團體改交審查本案交交通委員會審查下一案"},{"start":6519.141,"end":6540.764,"text":"第73案 交通部海外修正水域油氣活動管理辦法部分條文 程序委員會見理行會交交通委員會 宣讀完畢第74案 交通部海外修正交通部公路局高雄區建立所編制表及交通部公路局高雄市區建立所編制表 程序委員會見理行會交司法及法制交通兩委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6542.245,"end":6567.53,"text":"第七十五案防護部函文修正防護財政法人全新經營指導原則第六點規定程序委員會見理情會交司法及法制委員會。宣言完畢無異通過下議案第七十六案教育部函宗高級中等下學校學生申訴及再申訴評議委員會組織及運作辦法第二條修正條文對照表堪勿表程序委員會見理情會交教務及文化委員會。宣言完畢無異通過下議案"},{"start":6567.97,"end":6568.73,"text":"無異議通過下議案。"},{"start":6583.098,"end":6583.839,"text":"第78案．第79案．第19案．"},{"start":6604.714,"end":6606.075,"text":"無異議通過下一案無異議通過下一案"},{"start":6622.728,"end":6623.469,"text":"第81案）第82案）第82案）"},{"start":6647.489,"end":6650.592,"text":"五一通過下議案五一通過下議案五一通過下議案"},{"start":6667.666,"end":6670.507,"text":"委員．完整會議委員．完整會議委員．完整會議委員．完整會議"},{"start":6693.135,"end":6713.059,"text":"第87案,衛生福利不含重,全國性衛生財團法人及醫療財團法人全性經營規範遵守原則,持續委員會見,立行會交由社會福利及衛生環境委員會。宣傳完畢。報告委員會本案由國民黨黨團提議改交審查本案交由社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。下一案"},{"start":6713.513,"end":6735.437,"text":"第88案 衛生福利部海外修正 全民健康保險醫療服務解副項目及支付標準部分診療項目 並自113年5月1日生效 向衆院會見 立行委員交 社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣傳完畢報言會本案由國民黨黨團體改交審查本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下一案"},{"start":6736.055,"end":6751.313,"text":"第892環境部海外修正環境保護財團法人設立許可及監督辦法程序委員會間以及環交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢報告委員會本案由國民黨黨團體改交審查本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下一案"},{"start":6751.806,"end":6772.942,"text":"第九十二 環境部海委修正環境交易法施行席責第七條條文,採訊委員會見。您請回交社會福利及外商環境委員會。宣讀完畢。第九十一案 環境部海委修正機車陪伴空氣污染物、經驗站設置及管理辦法部分條文。採訊委員會見。您請回交社會福利及外商環境委員會。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6773.769,"end":6797.083,"text":"報告委員會本案由國民黨黨團提議改交審查本案交由社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下一案第92案環境部海維修政事業廢棄物經理計劃書審查管理辦法部分調溫請學員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢報告委員會本案由國民黨黨團提議改交審查本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下一案"},{"start":6797.54,"end":6817.268,"text":"第93環境部函宋112年水污染防水基金執行績效報告,程序委員會皆履行會交社會福利及物質環境委員會﹐宣讀完畢。第94案﹐財政部函宋經濟部112年電動車輛免准使用牌照稅效益說明,程序委員會皆履行會交財政委員會﹐宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6817.748,"end":6831.385,"text":"報告委員會本案由臺灣民眾黨黨團體改交審查本案交財政委員會審查報告委員會第95案至第251案請依序宣讀其中第115案、124案、145案、196案"},{"start":6836.191,"end":6839.935,"text":"211到214案國民黨黨團提議改交審查。第104、111、127、152到154、156、157、162、209、210案臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查。"},{"start":6858.712,"end":6871.617,"text":"宣讀之後以上提案均改交相關委會審查。區議案均照程序委員會意見通過。請問院會有無異議。無異議我們宣讀之後通過。請宣讀。"},{"start":6873.325,"end":6897.142,"text":"第九五案及第九六案﹐內政部﹐第九七案﹐原住民族委員會﹐第九八案﹐核能安全委員會﹐第九九案﹐國家科學及技術委員會﹐第一百案﹐交通部﹐第一零一案﹐直提一一九案﹐行政院﹐第一二零案﹐直提一三六案﹐內政部﹐第一三七案﹐直提一四一案﹐原住民族委員會﹐第一四二案﹐直提一五零案﹐中央選舉委員會﹐第一五一案﹐大陸委員會﹐第一五二案﹐直提一六二案﹐經濟部�"},{"start":6900.825,"end":6926.73,"text":"第166案立法院秘書長,第167案監察院,第168案公務人員保障及培訓委員會,第169案局第23案衛生福利部,第139案局第250案環境部,第251案司法院,還為113年度相關預算,中央政府以後強化經濟與社會熱性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算,113年度中央政府總預算等預算決議,分別解送相關報告,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6929.042,"end":6942.918,"text":"委員會第252案以下一併請一併宣讀。宣讀之後除第264案同意展延審查期限外其餘個案均准予被查請宣讀。"},{"start":6943.806,"end":6971.276,"text":"第252案及第253案為本院內政委會函,為院會交付原住民組委員會11306中央政府準選決議等案,亦經處理完均。第254案及第258案為本院司法及法制經濟、外交及國防、社會福利及衛生環境委會函,為院會交付審查相關行政命令,均已於法庭轉延審查及審查期限。第259案及第267案為本院司法及法制經濟、社會福利及衛生環境"},{"start":6972.316,"end":7001.03,"text":"江東內政委會含委員會將會審查相關行政命令,均已於立法院職權行使法第61條鎖定審查期限。第26頒案為行政院韓送本院張委員致論等,鎖定臨時提案之嚴處進行。質詢事項將行政院答覆部分,行政院韓送本院羅委員致強鎖定質詢之書面答覆共一件,以本院委員質詢部分,本院黃委員見好等將行政院提出質詢共五件。宣讀完畢"},{"start":7005.265,"end":7029.865,"text":"報告議員會,現在我們對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。在進行質詢之前,我們先請秘書長報告各部會首長請假情況。報告議員會,行政院來函經濟部國部長智輝本日因公請假,由陳市長正旗代表列席。報告完畢。報告議員會,我們今天進行個人質詢、經濟組織質詢。首先,我們請賴世保委員質詢。"},{"start":7049.515,"end":7055.337,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請行政院的卓院長。麻煩請卓院長備詢。拜會員好。院長好。這個我們的陸委會剛宣布"},{"start":7074.941,"end":7099.334,"text":"說調升中國大陸港澳旅遊警示為橙色燈號建議我們國人避免非必要的旅行這個事情到底請問你有沒有參與這個事我當然了解你當然了解嗎你也支持這樣做支持但是不要忘了賴清德總統在520演說他講這樣一段話"},{"start":7104.332,"end":7126.157,"text":"他講兩岸交流可以重啟雙邊對等的觀光旅遊開始沒有忘記這一句話他講的喔 是結果現在上台不到一個月就把他掐死了現在來講 欸 你說非必要旅行這個來講就比照以色列 以色列最賤的"},{"start":7128.109,"end":7141.686,"text":"對阿這樣子來講我是不瞭解啦齁這到底是為什麼現在要做這樣的一個限制旅遊業主要說阿這戲阿本來對賴總統有很大的期待覺得說哇春暖花開喔哇你講到這裡水開喔"},{"start":7144.589,"end":7154.658,"text":"關公旅遊開始,兩岸交流,結果現在變惡意的堆疊。老共記住這個,我們就打出這個,老共記住這個,我們就這樣子。這兩岸的惡意螺旋越來越上升了。我的重點在後面,這個只要你簡短的回答。"},{"start":7171.967,"end":7184.53,"text":"報告委員我們也看到6月21日中國當局對於所謂臺獨份子的定義加注了很多不應該有的限制。我們第一個保障國人去到"},{"start":7185.606,"end":7185.786,"text":"委員您錯了"},{"start":7214.119,"end":7215.561,"text":"我要強調的是旅遊業已經苦了這麼久了啦"},{"start":7233.697,"end":7254.808,"text":"好,這東西我就請,我就問你喔,真的你們只有政治嗎?只有這樣對抗嗎?大家都了解嘛,這個其實是假保護台灣人民,其實它就是隔絕,一步一步走向台獨,未來就是跟中國大陸完全切掉嘛,這個是這樣而已,好,我就問你,這樣子,我這一頁就跳過了,請問你,這個要維持多久?"},{"start":7259.275,"end":7274.345,"text":"看中國的態度要維持多久?有沒有未來會進一步的變紅色?有沒有可能?看中國的態度有沒有改變?所以不排除變紅色的喔?現在不能做這種預言式的質詢很可怕!預言式的質詢很可怕!不能做這種預言式的質詢!我在跟你講第二遍喔!我講話你不要插話!你剛剛有問我啊!不是!我請你講你才講嘛!你插話你插話!你剛剛有問我啊!"},{"start":7287.399,"end":7315.327,"text":"我現在就問你你沒有回答嘛我說有沒有可能進一步提升是不是不排除以後可能變紅色這種預言式的質詢很可怕要看對方的態度我們希望就此和緩改變態度大家都能夠和平理性的交流我們看這一陣子有所謂的陸媒陸媒盯哨爭論節目大家去撲撲像外界高度質疑行政院"},{"start":7316.434,"end":7316.994,"text":"有人在進行了解"},{"start":7346.261,"end":7365.914,"text":"開始調查就這個意思了齁我們看臺電的虧損累計虧損3800多億了齁而且國務部長阿偉大的郭志輝阿對外說他不要政府的補貼所以院長你聽好喔不准這樣講喔主計長前一陣子還來找我說我們1000億要給臺電的現在買!買!"},{"start":7371.991,"end":7389.207,"text":"不要啦!國資會說不用啦!不要一千億啦!企業經營自負盈虧!所以這個如果也不要這個一千億累積虧損三千八百多億,還有一條,還有一個東西來!院長我就問你喔!合適資產怎麼處理?兩千八百多億,其實六個資產捏!"},{"start":7391.226,"end":7398.289,"text":"他現在你們不要啦!你確定不要啦!不要了就應該變成廢資產啦!要資產減掉2800多,所以虧損的3800加2800等於虧損6000多億啊!你有了解一點嗎?請問你怎麼處理?請問你怎麼處理?"},{"start":7407.492,"end":7408.652,"text":"兩千八百多位的合適怎麼處理?"},{"start":7408.652,"end":7426.579,"text":"郭部長用他企業經營的精神,他是說未來臺電好好的經營可以朝向自主性的發展去,所以不要,但是現在臺電負有很多的政策目標,做很多的政策補貼,政府自主的這個撥補是應該的,目前這個階段,但未來我們需要臺電..."},{"start":7427.879,"end":7433.361,"text":"國部長用他企業經營觀念,未來臺電如果自主是全民高興的事情啊。那你能不能承諾,今年電價不要漲,可以嗎?"},{"start":7452.651,"end":7454.473,"text":"院長你知道嗎?我們三分之二的勞工"},{"start":7470.149,"end":7482.7,"text":"領不到平均薪資啊!四萬塊四萬多啊!上午之後百分之六十八領不到平均薪資大家去記很壞鬼還要漲電價!"},{"start":7482.7,"end":7493.269,"text":"對不對所以你不敢承諾今天不漲電價喔!不敢承諾!委員你比我清楚這電價審議委員會要審議的我只告訴大家今年已經漲過我們會考慮名聲、考慮物價、考慮產業的需求"},{"start":7504.895,"end":7523.57,"text":"我們努力維持各項的穩定努力維持物價的穩定跟民生的需求會全力的努力維持希望委員跟我們一起讓臺電體質能夠更好盡量不要漲定價你就不敢承認了你就不敢接受我一直跟你說這客氣啊"},{"start":7525.27,"end":7529.493,"text":"這個啊你說交給審議委員會這個叫騙人的啦其實是政策主導的來我們來看喔賴清德跟卓榮泰是不同調的或者唱雙簧他現在成立一個叫做"},{"start":7554.744,"end":7579.384,"text":"事後委員會在總統府裡面,其實就是永續經營的概念,同時前最近放炮了,這真是事情。他說,蔡英文政府的檢探成績不如馬英九政府。他講的,核電應該佔三成,綠電佔三成,四成是火力。他講這個概念。"},{"start":7580.998,"end":7605.697,"text":"總統府怎麼講咧?尊重啊!沒有授意啊!你繼續說!繼續說!繼續說!欸奇怪,他講成是打你的臉咧!那個...那個...左院長你也很了解啊!這每天都有講啊!賴清德第一人選的行政院長Premier行政院長是童子賢不是卓榮泰!你那天不是說是林佳龍嗎?不...不說那些啊!"},{"start":7606.394,"end":7630.802,"text":"那當委員前天說是林佳龍今天又變童子賢什麼東西林佳龍想當行政院長不是賴清德屬於他他想當行政院長對不對但是呢賴清德確實找童子賢要接行政院長報告委員最重要的是今天就是我站在這裡跟你討論國是這個才重要好那我就跟你講清楚我們講清楚現在童子賢這樣講囉"},{"start":7632.577,"end":7647.081,"text":"某種程度是代表賴清德的意思,他是氣候委員會的副召集人,召集人就是賴清德總統,他某種程度,所以請問你還堅持非核家園嗎?請問,會長"},{"start":7650.151,"end":7669.272,"text":"報告委員非核家園是2002年環境基本法23條所定的我們都應該守法吧這裡23條說政府應訂定計畫逐步達成非核家園目標當訂這個條文的時候委員也應該在立法院裡面你現在來講齁下個月核三廠的一號機停掉了核電佔的不到10%"},{"start":7670.553,"end":7679.523,"text":"所以,如果你這樣講的話,阿就簡單啦,我的解讀就是,來,卓榮泰,過得了,你的票過得了,我的非核家園,來,現在開始騙啦騙啦。"},{"start":7682.648,"end":7698.64,"text":"啊!永和的來喔!所以把他的base加到他現在只有40%他就變成希望變成45%變成50%!就是這樣子而已啊!一切就是為了政治!那個可以修!那個太簡單了!那個可以修!當然可以修!為什麼不能修呢?現在你也要依法我也要依法!"},{"start":7704.985,"end":7709.509,"text":"那現在要看核管法的規定我們能不能有權力有能力去這樣做?"},{"start":7723.613,"end":7744.526,"text":"國部長很奇怪,他說台灣人很奇怪,我覺得郭志偉才奇怪,他跑到美國罵台灣人勒,有這樣的部長,有這樣的經濟部長跑去美國罵台灣人,台灣人好奇怪喔,火電也不要啦,這個光電也不要啦,風電也不要啦,火力也不要啦。"},{"start":7745.186,"end":7749.71,"text":"國務部長的意思是說大家要支持國人支持台電的電力開發計畫我們多元發展綠能"},{"start":7769.631,"end":7774.996,"text":"臺灣人好奇怪,我都覺得郭志輝好奇怪,怎麼跑去美國罵臺灣人,好奇怪的郭志輝啊,怎麼可以這樣子呢?來!"},{"start":7789.605,"end":7806.775,"text":"他講過,如果原理修法通過,合法合三可以延20年30年,我們現在有法在那裡。現在最大的就是那個合法相關的,要原理要5年前申請,我們現在把5年拉掉。現在還沒有審,審如果通過的話,請問卓院長你還不要提復議?如果這個法通過了。對不起,哪個法通過?合法?"},{"start":7818.062,"end":7820.964,"text":"世界潮流世界潮流現在是減碳不減核"},{"start":7842.455,"end":7871.636,"text":"多少的國家現在都拼命擁抱核電只有我們要死抱著非核我就問你這個東西很明確的我時間不多如果我們通過把那個五年拿掉你要不要提呼應請問新的法令法案通過之後我們都要看他有沒有自在難行如果沒有自在難行我們當然會照法令來自在難行沒有啊這個通過就是可以核電才可以演藝當然這個就跟你的朋友家裡完全conflict矛盾了大家啦"},{"start":7872.455,"end":7896.722,"text":"言議要3到5年是沒有辦法發電的委員難道不知道嗎?我找了多少的核電專家我坐下來討論了幾次那個要經過安全檢查大概一年的時間之後重新set up大概另外一年大概兩年多一點就可以重新還要態換設備還要安全總體檢現在等一下我們蘇委員就會下一段就會講了現在你們都"},{"start":7899.543,"end":7903.164,"text":"最後一個題目啊現在全世界我們大家都在搶人啦我們國資委講的喔16年內50萬個人50萬人有沒有可能的國話會的題目老實講國話會"},{"start":7927.397,"end":7931.309,"text":"請問我們有沒有可能學川普降落來美國讀書給你綠卡?"},{"start":7934.226,"end":7935.007,"text":"委員可以一起支持?"},{"start":7958.11,"end":7959.33,"text":"接下來我們請登記第二位蘇清泉委員質詢。"},{"start":7998.874,"end":8012.284,"text":"謝謝主席,我請主委員長。麻煩再請主委員長備詢。第一階段請經濟部,第二階段請農業部。現在要請經濟部備詢嗎?主委員,現在要請經濟部,麻煩請經濟部備詢。好,下一張。主委員好。好,主委員長辛苦了。不會,應該的。"},{"start":8026.697,"end":8054.763,"text":"這兩天我到恆春,因為我常去河山場。河山場我差不多去一直集作。那河山場的廠長我們都很熟練。那我去河山場旁邊叫做大光禮。大光禮我叫了一個姨外阿嬤貴姓。我就把這位議員代表、鄉長,恆春本土四個鄉長、鄉長跟一些主席,也有男的也有女的,"},{"start":8055.902,"end":8061.588,"text":"他們合論後的結果,跟我們兩個,我想一定要注意聽一下。他們說,我們在這裡參加河山場35年,我們都沒有意見,我們都同意原意,"},{"start":8071.812,"end":8097.92,"text":"我們愛是什麼?因為愛,因為愛是他們的福利比較好。因為愛是他們的醫療要比較好。比如說我們鄉村旅遊醫院,蘇春昌那個時候給它改成旅遊醫院。他們希望能改回來部立醫院。昨天早上在考慮一下。因為覺得旅遊醫院太狹隘了。醫院的存在就是要給當地,給當地。"},{"start":8102.762,"end":8116.008,"text":"醫院的服務是以當地百分之八十為服務當地的。外來的、旅遊的等等那個突發的差不多佔百分之二十而已啦。所以這個他們希望改回來。那他們的一個質疑就是,啊我們在這附近的河山場這樣共辦三四十年,我們都沒意見,啊平平都不錯。"},{"start":8129.588,"end":8143.535,"text":"我都沒有意見,我已經做過兩次,差不多76%以上的被審也沒有反對,都同意原意。我都沒有意見,你台北有什麼意見,是在做什麼?美麗,更加嚴重。這個河山場的土地,整宿是600公頃,有它起來,有400公頃,一定你可能也不知道。現在,"},{"start":8159.321,"end":8178.745,"text":"這兩天下午,剛才在閣那邊,左邊那邊,吃飯的時候民宅很小,那400公頃,現在我們的光電業者迫不及待,已經在整理草地了,這裡有草地的所在,要蓋光電板了。他們說,怎麼會這樣蓋,這樣蓋,到底民進黨蓋光電業就是掛外侵,到底蓋了多少,還是到底是"},{"start":8188.681,"end":8197.387,"text":"這是他們的質疑。這兩點,院長,稍微舒克一下。這是我自己的反應。這不是藍、不是綠,是在地的鄉親事大。下一張。這就是我們屏東的車廂。車廂這塊地,你有看到嗎?這大片,以前通過的。這樣光天夜澤跟布瓦風。"},{"start":8215.438,"end":8224.024,"text":"來來來蘇貞昌講平和公路最美麗的風景線這樣這個最美麗的風景線這種長這麼大長現在是河山長四百公頃中看光電板所產生的電力差不多三點多億度一年"},{"start":8241.107,"end":8268.753,"text":"那河山場兩個爐子它的產電量一年差不多一百七十幾億度,我連尾數都沒有。那你如果要取代這個河山場兩個爐子產生的電,這種規模的差不多要60座,我們有那麼多的土地能接受這樣的蹂躪嗎?你看,再來,看看我們"},{"start":8270.067,"end":8296.396,"text":"這個是內埔的東勢村、東片村,我都去想、都去看。這20年要怎麼復原,院長?這都空安門堂,有的都塑造了,這樣都被寵了。所以不是用那個賣的地,有的賣賣的地,我們現在說融一融二,融二也少了一步。所以要好好的考慮。"},{"start":8298.117,"end":8298.737,"text":"我剛才跟院長報告了。400公頃全部蓋滿。"},{"start":8326.62,"end":8348.986,"text":"還三點多易度,太久了。所以你看看這麼漂亮的一個600公頃增收,然後400公頃圍起來。所以我在這邊很誠懇的呼籲我們行政院。部長今天沒在,我是很幸福的,很尊敬的。"},{"start":8349.912,"end":8354.574,"text":"一位大廚、一位大廚長、一位大廚長、一位大廚長、一位大廚長、一位大廚長、一位大廚長、一位大廚長、一位大廚長、一位大廚長、一位大廚長、"},{"start":8377.448,"end":8393.347,"text":"第一個跟委員報告,核電廠40年的壽命是當時政府跟人民的契約,我們必須要這個信賴原則底下去做依法該做的事情。當然有相關的法律可以去做調整,不過現在跟委員報告的是依照核管法實行細則第16條,"},{"start":8395.109,"end":8409.471,"text":"整個廚藝25年這個河山廠是不能做其他這個流程要走25年廚藝的流程才會走完這過程當中他不可以做其他不相關的使用剛剛說的那個只是在廠區的外圍另外"},{"start":8410.882,"end":8412.243,"text":"昨天有提一個市長說自己兩點到十點自己停電一小時"},{"start":8440.441,"end":8444.689,"text":"各月給他獎勵48塊獎勵錢。我如果用異性的立場,說這種外人可能要吃油了,有這種荒唐的想法嗎?市長。"},{"start":8452.554,"end":8476.509,"text":"報告委員,這種虛量反映,臺電已經做了幾十年都是跟企業用電大戶做,現在是推到住家去,自願性的立場,這個是美國日本都在做,這是要引進綠燃的時候,本來就是虛量的調節,以後如果像現在美國在做的,電動車的電也可以灌回給電網,這是事辦的性質,這不是說"},{"start":8476.929,"end":8483.134,"text":"每一次講的理由都是荒誕不拘,聽起來都是很荒唐的,這個不要再當理由了。小六九20年在連戰那個時代第一條還在電纜過去,現在已經兩條了。"},{"start":8506.86,"end":8507.961,"text":"有水有水有土地"},{"start":8536.584,"end":8562.003,"text":"平東有水有電希望台積電,現在呢?有水沒電沒有台積電。今天台積電給我們打臉說他不可以來了,我們要來做封裝測試場。我們很痛苦這個土地,平東的水很多,浮流水、愛寮溪、二峰郡、東港溪,只有東港溪那些藍河的一天就抽20多萬桶去雇用。"},{"start":8564.07,"end":8569.834,"text":"我非常深入地去了解,跟平科大教授。和山長的天下就欠天了。和恆春半島的人,他們的想法,院長我今天跟你講,你要收聽下去。好,那我們請經濟部,我們請農業部。"},{"start":8592.19,"end":8599.614,"text":"昨天晚上接到簡訊說食藥署長今天換人了昨天我們邱部長還在講說風雪來風到底是怎樣"},{"start":8605.102,"end":8628.534,"text":"施耀署吳署長所有部會對他所屬的主管的人士的調動我們都尊重部長那昨天他應該是在還沒有完成整個程序之前所以他不想在那個時候做任何的證實我想我體諒他的心情也希望大家能夠了解但是他應該是完成了程序之後就照既定的程序來走"},{"start":8629.909,"end":8643.395,"text":"好,我們農業部這邊,我這裡要肯定一下農業部長,還有我們的漁業署長署長,一定我到他們那邊幫你額落。我們上次去看屏東生機園區的雞蛋銷毀的。"},{"start":8647.225,"end":8672.121,"text":"陳部長當時楊瓊英我還有民眾黨張其凱我們對他非常讚賞因為勇敢面對任何的事實然後勇於承擔而且我們恭喜在位恭喜在位很重要我們很不喜歡聽人家亂說話所以陳部長我再次肯定但是齁這次的黑鮪魚的事情處理得不好張署長你要先開這個嗎要不要啦齁"},{"start":8677.079,"end":8694.012,"text":"我對於這個黑鮪魚轉成內銷那這十幾年來價格都還不錯但是因為中西太平洋的漁業委員會給我們借給我們喊我們這一年的1965公噸1965公噸1965公噸1965公噸1965公噸1965公噸1965公噸1965公噸1965公噸1965公噸"},{"start":8705.643,"end":8735.415,"text":"叫人來做秀,然後叫清雄來收聽,一公斤拍賣一萬空三百公,喔天價,這位第一位是三百公,幾公斤,賣三百幾萬。為屆公開始,一公斤存八百,六百,阿第二落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落落"},{"start":8736.184,"end":8744.908,"text":"我向委員報告,就是說因為我們有配合的時候,所以過往我們在90%的時候把這個資訊提供給漁民的時候,那個時間太長了,因為時間太長了,讓一些基準已經出海了。"},{"start":8759.495,"end":8759.515,"text":"委員長"},{"start":8776.843,"end":8799.392,"text":"一千六九萬六十五噸,很少耶對啊還有那個整條島一萬六千幾噸耶還有那個大戶鮪魚七萬多噸耶我跟委員報告齁那端午節進行的那個飛鮪魚本身的品質比較好所以我們會利用這樣的一個調控齁讓漁民知道他的時間點齁跟他的抓的數量"},{"start":8800.049,"end":8827.743,"text":"我們希望我們一整年,因為漁訓期兩個多月而已嘛。希望我們的百姓、我們鄉親一整年都可以吃到高品質的黑鮪吐露嘛。啊,我們是什麼?兩年不夠嘛。連下幾十度,連下六十,四十六十,四十五度以下的兩年不夠。我們的農業部,我們的漁業署,在補助各個漁會來企這兩年,速度太慢。"},{"start":8828.635,"end":8837.745,"text":"是不是做品質也不夠,還是上面維護得不好。1900多噸,產量300條、400條一進來,價格掉到100塊。 院長你怎麼敢拖下去,如果要鼓勵民眾要怎麼辦?"},{"start":8844.912,"end":8846.093,"text":"你要給他停,6月12日就不能抓"},{"start":8871.018,"end":8884.454,"text":"月月19日在發公文,三天,全部都處理,有的已經處理,有的已經抓一半,抓一半的,抓到要把它丟掉,丟到海裡面,情何以堪啊,不妙,靠人家這樣在錄的啦。"},{"start":8886.463,"end":8902.252,"text":"報告委員我們當時我們就跟農業部有檢討過未來對漁民的服務通告公告的時效要掌握的精確一點不要造成大家的困擾我們深深的檢討我跟委員報告針對這個部分我們有開始去規劃相關的產業的一個輔導的一個措施那這個措施我相信我們會跟漁民來好好的討論未來就這個部分怎麼樣做更好的一個經濟的作為"},{"start":8915.745,"end":8916.986,"text":"接下來我們請登記第三號嚴寬衡委員質詢"},{"start":8965.422,"end":8974.846,"text":"立法院韓院長各位列席官員大家好請主席請行政院左院長麻煩再請左院長備詢院委員好院長好院長這是我們第一次的這個總質詢那我想我想在這邊跟院長討論一些民生議題首先是電價的部分"},{"start":8995.523,"end":9019.357,"text":"我想請教左院長的態度。臺電從4月1日開始調漲電價,那許多的房東也跟著調漲租金。那電價從每度的5元、6元、7元漲幅20到40%。政府是議題的。前內政部林右昌部長曾經允諾要修租屋定型化契約。"},{"start":9020.236,"end":9041.096,"text":"明定出租人收取之電費不可以超出該月之總額,當期之總額。原來說5月就可以上路,但是如今卻跳票。上次也有委員在這邊問到這個問題。那院長你的回覆說7月就會上路。那我想民眾都非常的關心,尤其是青年學子、族族。"},{"start":9042.054,"end":9052.011,"text":"那是不是可以請院長簡單的說明一下現在的進度為何。我知道今天內政部沒有來,如果院長你不清楚沒關係,但是請你說明一下你對這件事情的態度。"},{"start":9052.783,"end":9075.009,"text":"感謝委員對這個議題的重視。林前部長所訂的方向也覺得是正確的。我記得當前一陣子,劉部長在這裡答覆的時候,他說會把這個後續完成。那現在我應該會馬上跟內政部來聯繫,叫他再訂一個時間向大會來公報。即是說7月會不會上路。"},{"start":9075.729,"end":9097.181,"text":"因為上一次你說7月可能就會上路好不好?我們一定在這個時程完成因為早一天就是保障更多的租屋者的安全電價是全民關心的事情尤其是青年學子租屋主因為現在生活成本非常的高電價一漲所有的物價都會漲那我們早一日儘早邀請各部會針對"},{"start":9098.564,"end":9127.666,"text":"租屋定型化契約的內容條款進行討論好好把關就是對租屋主的早一日的保障接下來我再請教就是跟你討論的是我們中部民眾的需求也要讓院長更加了解本席的選區整個大台中市中部地區的用電需求請教院長最大的火力發電廠在榮景院長你能不能承諾台中海線居民的用電需求是不是應該更受到保障"},{"start":9129.155,"end":9158.187,"text":"台中的火力發電廠很長的時間一直是主力那現在我們持續把它改換成燃氣希望有一天對地方的衝擊會小一點那當然它也穩定了周遭的這個供電甚至提供了台灣其他地區的穩定供電的系統對這就是我要跟你討論的現在火力發電廠在台中然後呢現在有10部燃煤機組現在正在興建兩座的燃氣機組未來還要再興建四座燃氣機組"},{"start":9159.287,"end":9182.254,"text":"那拆除4座燃煤機保留6部做緊急備用發電那儲氣槽的部分從現在的5座要再增加4座這是中火就是我們這個經濟部的部分中火要增加9座燃氣機組我先聲明就是一路以來我都支持用燃氣來燃煤"},{"start":9184.448,"end":9184.468,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":9205.609,"end":9231.681,"text":"那可能就會變成未拆除的6部燃煤機組在緊急的狀態之下隨時都會啟動那就變成6加6原有的550萬千瓦的發電量現在用6部燃氣機組來取代變成810萬千瓦再加上備用的這6部燃煤機組那台中中部整個空氣污染的情況會雪上加霜也會更加嚴重"},{"start":9232.501,"end":9244.742,"text":"那因為0403的大地震許多的電廠基礎跳機那面臨震後檢修大潭電廠、明潭電廠也無意境的故障跳脫"},{"start":9247.322,"end":9264.497,"text":"備載容量過低,緊急向民間電廠購電。我擔心在這個供電網任性不足的情況之下,我們原有的備用的六部燃煤機組會緊急使用,變成常態。院長你可不可以針對緊急備用的構成要件在這邊說明。"},{"start":9265.918,"end":9292.455,"text":"報告委員所謂緊急備用的機組所以緊急備用所以絕不輕嚴啟動現在我們也看不到任何條件必須去考慮到它這個緊急啟動的這個條件目前都看不到我們只說對這個燃氣機組的時程能夠讓它如期完成甚至做更多其他多元綠能的發展等等目前我們覺得這樣是滿足現在的需求的"},{"start":9293.377,"end":9319.296,"text":"當然我們對於輸配電的整個電網的韌性還要加強,這個經濟部已經投注了相當多的時間。我再請教,不只是中火的5加9座的這個儲存槽,這個中油的部分,現有的6座,台中港區現有的6座,2022年動工的26年要完工的2座,再加上外港區擴建4座,總共就是12座。"},{"start":9320.41,"end":9347.487,"text":"中油的部分12座,中火的部分9座,總共21座。未來整個台中港有21座的天然氣儲存槽。從戰略的角度來看,大家要知道,雞農不能放在港前啊。不管是受到天候的影響,海運的影響,或者是兩岸局勢的影響,一旦發生任何的危機,將不堪設想。台中港居民,整個海線的居民,生活在水深火熱當中危機四伏。"},{"start":9348.41,"end":9367.448,"text":"院長您可不可以替我們當地的民眾考慮一下應該召集各部會去做一個協商做一個研究要怎麼樣去修正怎麼樣的分散管理怎麼樣的讓主計朝的部分能夠在整個中部地區做一個分散的建制可不可以"},{"start":9368.255,"end":9385.811,"text":"所以我們現在全力在開發第三接收站明年他就應該有可以初期的使用是在哪裡請問可不可以告訴我在哪裡在桃園桃園這邊會有第三接收站那個東西就現在工程進度都我想要知道就是真的需要那麼多嗎"},{"start":9387.363,"end":9390.285,"text":"其實我們未來希望以燃氣為50%為主軸那麼加上這個綠能30%燃煤可以降到20%以氣代煤這是長期的政策"},{"start":9412.162,"end":9429.116,"text":"我贊成我剛剛一開始我就說我贊成我增加燃氣減少燃煤但是我們從戰略的角度來看你把21座的儲存槽通通放在台中港台中港不是鳥無人煙台中港是海線人口最精華的地方"},{"start":9430.323,"end":9445.394,"text":"所以我就是今天在這邊提出來要讓院長部長讓你們真正知道臺中港的現有的狀況我也樂見院長部長一起來到臺中港我相信你們也去過但是近期的發展整個城市的發展"},{"start":9446.604,"end":9466.073,"text":"人口的增加這個是可能你們沒有考慮到了所以我才想說在這邊要要求院長為我們整個台中港人民民眾他們的心聲他們的危機他們的危機感來做出一個考量跨部會的做一個研究是不是該減少或者該怎麼分散可不可以"},{"start":9466.937,"end":9468.278,"text":"好,我們就拿中友來看吼。"},{"start":9497.799,"end":9521.604,"text":"中火在22年的10月還有23年的11月它的那個梅倉還有梅倉對不對還有那個蘇梅的那個蘇梅袋也都多次發生火災那我們儲氣槽"},{"start":9523.408,"end":9547.661,"text":"天然氣儲氣槽21座假設在興建的過程或是未來營運管理的過程當中發生任何公安的意外或者是因為極端氣候或者發生了任何不可預測的狀況那勢必對整個地區整個台中港發生的無法無法預估會發生什麼樣的災難所以我才在這邊提出來希望院長做一個考量"},{"start":9548.641,"end":9575.08,"text":"那不要讓我們的民眾生活在這種無比的壓力之下危機四伏的壓力之下可不可以我們可以把這個我們在台中港除潮這方面所做的公安方面的努力在會後送個書名報告給委員但是我要提醒啦就是說中火也是大家關注的那中火他也常常發生這些公安昨天昨天又一例昨天又一例又是他的書沒帶"},{"start":9576.417,"end":9578.119,"text":"再來我想請教剛剛院長提到了就是"},{"start":9598.991,"end":9624.19,"text":"部長您也提到就除氣的燃氣的比例要高達50%2025但是依照目前的期程來看應該是穩定跳票中目前的比例佔比是39.57本期不想跟你討論這個能源政策民眾要的是穩定便宜的電但是你們做的是成本昂貴受到不確定因素影響程度高的電"},{"start":9625.396,"end":9651.614,"text":"因為你們的政策規劃甚至於背後有特定的能源廠商民眾想管也管不了但是現況就是不符合民意這一點十分明確那我要強調就是說除了發電來源之外更加強變電所還有輸配電端的設備品質的維護更加重要並以配電為核心部件分散式的能量"},{"start":9652.202,"end":9678.311,"text":"加強電網的韌性,減少超高壓變電所及電網的擴充,將重心放在電力需求面的管理。目前進入夏日的用電高峰期,那很多地區無預警的停電也是變成常態,像昨天板橋又發生了大跳電,無預警的大跳電。那我不曉得這一次是碰氣,還是魂叫,還是什麼,又是什麼小動物,"},{"start":9680.051,"end":9682.992,"text":"民眾在毫無防備的情況之下遭受到這樣的情況,輕則家電設備損壞,重則廠商公司生產線停擺。"},{"start":9697.227,"end":9719.956,"text":"一切設備整組排料料那我們行政院一直強調說臺灣不缺電是電網不夠強韌電網過於老舊那會造成整區大跳電我現在想要請教就是說臺電的強化電網韌性計畫未來10年要投入5645億是整體臺灣電網把脈的強硬計畫但是我看到這裡面臺中市兩年"},{"start":9727.458,"end":9749.759,"text":"站不到50億,1000億裡面不到5%那要全面提升供電穩定你中火最大的電廠在台中,台中是人口第二大但是整個把脈的強硬計畫還有老舊電網更新的這些預算配比站不到5%"},{"start":9751.415,"end":9771.889,"text":"這是不是很可笑?我不曉得是什麼原因會讓台中市的占比這麼小?台中市尤其是海線是沿海重點的防治區。中國在這裡,污染也在這裡。更應該增加更多的配電設備、紅外線的檢測還有各項的這樣的一個預防的形式。及早發現設備的老舊"},{"start":9774.724,"end":9798.353,"text":"的疲乏、弱點然後來安排更換避免因事故發生停電或者是造成更大的危險這才是重點。我想請教院長能不能要求臺電承諾加強海線的電力維護可不可以。謝謝委員跟委員報告10年花5645億的這件事情我跟郭部長曾經討論過我希望能夠縮短時程"},{"start":9800.143,"end":9802.845,"text":"院長,我在這裡有三個重點,我再跟你說一下。第一個就是我剛剛提到海線是沿海的重點區域。"},{"start":9827.669,"end":9845.331,"text":"這部分要加強設備防炎設備這個加強愛子清洗這部分那另外本期的選區也就是中火的所在地電纜電線地下化的比例要提高為什麼要地下化就是地下化才能減少沿海侵蝕這些輸入配電的部分"},{"start":9849.598,"end":9860.691,"text":"第三點火力發電廠中火在海線在台中但是台中市民常常深受停電之苦停電之苦"},{"start":9861.332,"end":9888.248,"text":"這是非常諷刺的這三點我想要拜託院長檢討臺電對海線居民的用電保障這三點非常的重要我在時間有限那我在這邊也要跟院長跟你說明一下下一次的交通組我也會跟你再做更詳細的報告就是臺中大渡的和美大橋它可以銜接我們的國道3號和美交流道但是現在的問題"},{"start":9890.828,"end":9915.435,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":9918.283,"end":9930.317,"text":"謝謝嚴寬衡委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。麻煩交通那個麻煩一下那個經濟部就把嚴委員所索取的資料送給嚴委員。謝謝。接下來我們請登記第4號馬文君委員質詢。"},{"start":9945.415,"end":9949.158,"text":"謝謝主席。麻煩請院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。委員好。院長好。院長這一次因為在最近我們前幾天也在新聞上面看到"},{"start":9971.952,"end":9986.482,"text":"是要包括像南投縣的人愛鄉很多的高麗菜很多的農作物都受到冰泡的那個影響甚至在半個小時之內把整片很多很多的農作物都打壞掉了"},{"start":9987.443,"end":10005.365,"text":"我們現在特別要提的是目前我們在全球可能氣候變遷的因素然後對於整個大環境還有這些天候不是過冷就是過熱不是水太多就是乾旱所以對農民也造成很多的衝擊跟影響"},{"start":10007.167,"end":10021.816,"text":"我們不管是民進黨政府也好國民黨政府也好其實都一直希望好好的來照顧我們的農民所以推了很多相關的政策可是今天我本席也要在這裡特別為農民請命因為南投是一個農業觀光的大縣"},{"start":10025.998,"end":10055.998,"text":"﹚"},{"start":10056.718,"end":10056.739,"text":"﹚國務委員﹚"},{"start":10075.091,"end":10098.312,"text":"政府是強制性的尤其是如果有農會保險的身份一定要強制納保可是當他們保了30年40年甚至更久的時間現在卻突然被政府說你們的資格可能有疑慮比如說你有工商登記像這樣子就被取消掉了這個有沒有什麼樣的一個具體的做法"},{"start":10099.671,"end":10112.978,"text":"謝謝委員 農業部來說明謝謝委員我在這邊說明就是委員一直在關心這個議題那我也開了很多的相關的一個會議想辦法找到一個可以解決的方法那現在目前就是說"},{"start":10114.83,"end":10115.27,"text":"關於農商登記的問題"},{"start":10134.289,"end":10136.511,"text":"我們要說的不是他有保障因為這本來就是他應得的"},{"start":10149.765,"end":10169.103,"text":"因為那是他自己繳的保費我們現在講的是你突然把它註銷那我想請問一下因為你說剛剛部長有提到說如果他的工商登記只要跟農業有相關的全部都可以納入可以認定是不是所以我舉例來說比如說像國信的咖啡農"},{"start":10169.944,"end":10191.722,"text":"像他們去申請工商登記他們為什麼去申請工商登記因為那時候政府要求他們必須要做標章的認定他要去申請那個標章所以他產地標章所以就要求一定要工商登記所以他們因為這樣的因素去申請工商登記他就可以"},{"start":10192.623,"end":10214.943,"text":"還是一樣維持農保的資格。只要跟農業相關有關的,我們會盡量來協助。因為他們是被取消的,這也是在陳情的對象以內,這是第一個。第二個,如果說他們開雜貨店,比如說像過去在很早期3、40年前甚至4、50年前比如說像仁愛鄉、像信義鄉、像中寮鄉、南投縣很多的偏鄉,他們"},{"start":10216.124,"end":10216.144,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":10232.918,"end":10252.943,"text":"不是,那個雜貨店的部分因為他本身是一個不是只有跟農業有關的還有其他的部分那我還在跟委員說明就是就算他退保他還是可以去加保那如果說年齡比較大的時候我們來爭取我們來陳情的他們都是八九十歲大家可以看到這個九十幾歲的他要加保什麼"},{"start":10253.743,"end":10281.337,"text":"而且你們要加保的條件是他還必須要到他的地上去實際耕作一個93歲的老人家你叫他說還要再去因為那時候是政府叫他強制納保的這是第一點我再請問一下如果像現在有很多農地被拿去種電他在上面設置相關的那個太陽能那因為太陽能要對要把電賣給台電嘛"},{"start":10283.078,"end":10283.098,"text":"部長﹖"},{"start":10299.059,"end":10322.215,"text":"他從事漁業那是地我們剛剛講的這些農民他們也都在他們的土地上面實際從事農業的使用而且真的種了一輩子他們從那時候沒有機械來代替沒有人力資源在沒有水沒有電的情況之下要爬山涉水還要去擔水那個年代他們就從事了農業"},{"start":10323.336,"end":10343.422,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10343.542,"end":10343.562,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":10357.551,"end":10358.352,"text":"我跟委員您有一點誤解"},{"start":10376.445,"end":10399.554,"text":"雨電共生的那個光電業者是不能從事農保但是他跟農民合作農民本身的農保資格不會被取消所以還是農民對這塊地的一個如果香菇農在他自己的香菇的那個那個棚架上面對那他也必須要賣電他去申請這樣子的工商登記那他的資格算不算"},{"start":10400.492,"end":10402.593,"text":"部長,你們給農民的解釋,因為在我們的法條上面清清楚楚的寫了"},{"start":10421.201,"end":10437.652,"text":"你只要從事,實質的從事相關的農業,其實你的農保就會存在,因為你要做這些都是為了要打假農民,可是你把真的農民全部把他們犧牲掉了,你現在在幫他們說,我的上面重電,他當時說他們不合格的是因為他們辦了工商登記,不可以。"},{"start":10444.716,"end":10447.058,"text":"所以你現在如果你種了電賣還可以賣電給台電那他的資格還可以我不知道這樣的標準差異在哪裡他們也實際在從容啊這些人都還在他們都有從容啊而且攪了一輩子你們說停就停他什麼都沒有"},{"start":10461.651,"end":10469.235,"text":"我跟委員 我想委員非常清楚他這個 我們一般對65歲以上的話我們不會主動的去針對這個特別是年紀大的人去查核那最主要是因為當時紓困的時候他們領了這些農民的部分部長 這個都已經不是這個中間過程了我們今天是要講一個公平正義的問題當你們知道這些人是實際一輩子從農而且從年輕到老而且他繳了一輩子的農保的錢"},{"start":10490.905,"end":10504.331,"text":"可是他只因為他有工商登記他被你取消了你的條例裡面如果就部長剛剛講的只要他的條件其實他是有實際從農他就可以有符合農保的資格這是我們照顧農民"},{"start":10506.432,"end":10517.599,"text":"而且我們要有這個農保的政策的一個很重要的一個目的結果你現在可以幫他們解釋說如果你在上面因為你種電你賣電給台電那你是可以的那為這些原來的農民真正的農民你們卻不可以這樣的政府是有為有能的嗎"},{"start":10529.758,"end":10532.523,"text":"而且這個人數並不是很多到目前為止從今年1月到5月總共才404位他們繳了很多錢欸你政府好像在騙他一樣"},{"start":10542.778,"end":10564.447,"text":"是不是應該要部長不是對我們說明而是你如果真的要照顧農民你們必須解決這個問題當你可以解釋在你的估了上面架設你的光電賣電給台電可以申請工商登記而且這樣符合農保資格當你做這樣解釋的時候你就應該有辦法幫真正一輩子從農的這些老農"},{"start":10568.729,"end":10598.729,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":10599.629,"end":10624.534,"text":"謝謝委員我覺得委員提出的這個觀察不無可以檢討之處我們常常說養殖為本農事為本養殖為本才能夠綠能加值還是要養殖或有從事農事都應該存在如果從這個標準來看它有相關我是建議剛剛我們參佐委員這個講法我們做實質上的檢討或必要解釋跟說明"},{"start":10625.054,"end":10653.141,"text":"好普遍要照顧到真正在還在從事農事的這些農民朋友們當你的法其實是要當我們這些政策是要照顧農民的時候沒有沒有理由我們用法來犧牲他們或者就把他們自己的權益通通把它斷送掉了而且他是真的講了好幾十年因為你不主要是為了講農民嗎包括剛剛的餘電共生我們的餘電共生大家可以回去檢視看看他事實上他的"},{"start":10653.581,"end":10653.841,"text":"大概多久的時間?"},{"start":10679.766,"end":10693.724,"text":"我會盡快,因為這個牽涉到一些例外條件的一個設定,因為其實我們研究了非常久,我們也解決了,像你剛才說剩下400多個,其實本來是1萬多個,所以我們有很多包括"},{"start":10694.821,"end":10723.729,"text":"打開了那個只要跟農業有關的工商業登記我們都可以認那現在就是最後一個就是說部長,電跟農業沒有關係就是賣電跟農業沒有關係那是政策對那是兩件事所以當你這個可以認定的時候你其他的真正的農民沒有理由不認定所以我們希望可以很快的至少在兩個禮拜之內或一個月之內給我們一些出戶的一個方向"},{"start":10724.329,"end":10727.012,"text":"另外還有的就是我想要請教的也是跟農民有關的就是我們在採購農藥跟肥料的時候我們為什麼要"},{"start":10740.024,"end":10740.044,"text":"國務委員﹚"},{"start":10762.383,"end":10762.883,"text":"全世界有"},{"start":10787.15,"end":10791.574,"text":"我們希望他的農藥殘留量還有我們確保食安的問題就讓他有正確的肥料跟農藥的一個使用的方式可是事實上並不然"},{"start":10811.049,"end":10829.155,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":10829.377,"end":10849.428,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10849.768,"end":10855.832,"text":"你是不相信農民,如果你要讓農民有正確的使用肥料跟農藥的這樣子的一個概念,必須從農民教育開始。"},{"start":10862.543,"end":10891.223,"text":"我要跟委員說明齁榮耀實名制肥料實名制只要第一次去登記的時候需要填這些資料以後你買肥料的話就是用報一個電話號碼就可以了對啊那很奇怪啊因為你的目的部長因為你的目的是希望可以控制用藥嘛就是說我的面積原來可能五分地可是我如果賣掉三分地四分地了咧我還是一樣買那麼多啊所以你那麼那個是多此一舉我現在說的是你必須要根本解決"},{"start":10891.963,"end":10919.526,"text":"第1就是從源頭比如說像肥料還有農藥的製造商他們在成分還有他的劑量上面去做最好的控管當你們知道以後再給農民最好的一個用藥的還有用肥料的一個教育我相信對我們的食安還有我們對所有的這些安全會有更大的幫助因為像現在部長也許知道如果像現在的天氣"},{"start":10921.167,"end":10944.168,"text":"太熱、太冷,其實他用的農藥已經不太適用了,而且我們的標準很...就是我們可以使用的農藥品項很少。當農民他使用無效的時候,蟲還是來吃的時候,或者他長不出來的時候,他可能有兩種情況。第一種就是違規使用。"},{"start":10945.149,"end":10968.982,"text":"用沒有核定沒有核准的藥第二個有可能必須加量因為你一直在用舊的農藥比如說像很多的我們人的藥品也是你久了就會有抗藥性耐受性所以現在有很多的新藥其實它稀釋可以都是以千倍萬倍計算可是我們現在核準的可能是"},{"start":10970.384,"end":10989.087,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10989.888,"end":11007.249,"text":"我要跟委員說明就是說整個的一個農藥肥料的施用我們的宣導持續透過教育訓練第二個部分就是剛才您所說的就是透過因為在實名制裡面他種的東西是會被呈現的那這樣子農藥行這些人就可以給他一個比較正確的一個建議"},{"start":11008.712,"end":11018.962,"text":"部長這些就是農民跟農藥行跟我的建議因為我們不是第一年實施他已經實施一段時間有些藥就是不行比如說為什麼日本進口的草莓我們要給他放寬為什麼日本他們可以使用我忘了那個藥名可是在國內的草莓農是不可以使用那些農藥的"},{"start":11031.754,"end":11058.224,"text":"我們為了讓日本的草莓可以進口因為被檢出一次兩次三次結果我們開放日本的草莓農可以使用那幾樣的三種吧那三種農藥可是我們國內的農民是不准的那可見他要使用的時候他有很多必須要有效農民要的是有效你規定是什麼你叫我用什麼我都可以因為他花錢他不是很愛用農藥欸因為那也是要錢欸"},{"start":11060.725,"end":11061.025,"text":"我跟"},{"start":11079.889,"end":11080.089,"text":"部長,那個九成是問誰?"},{"start":11092.745,"end":11094.886,"text":"我剛剛有提到我是這幾天又特別接到很多的農民跟農藥行他們對我"},{"start":11113.814,"end":11115.935,"text":"台灣的教育台灣的農業台灣的技術各方面都比全球很多很多的國家還要好"},{"start":11137.862,"end":11163.734,"text":"我不相信我們的農民教不會我們必須要用這樣的方式要採取要去強勢要他們的個資的方式來限制我剛剛講了啊我原來五分地我如果賣掉三分地你也不知道啊因為你只登記那一次啊我想我們的個資裡面最重要的是他種植的作物的品項那種植作物的品項對於後續的用肥用料是需要一些指導農藥行可以透過這個方式來指導他部長我再跟您說因為那個要錢"},{"start":11166.855,"end":11167.115,"text":"我現在要說的是給農民正確的一個觀念"},{"start":11183.231,"end":11204.885,"text":"比你去做這樣的限制尤其跟人民拿個資這是非常嚴重的事情尤其是跟農民從我剛才講到現在有很多對農民的政策並不友善所以我們今天提出來是希望我們行政院還有我們農業部可以就這個部分再去做事實的一個檢視跟調整如果可以讓農民更好如果可以讓我們食安更好可以讓我們的農藥使用可以更好"},{"start":11210.629,"end":11236.352,"text":"我相信這是大家都期待的因為我們當然不希望我們吃到很多農藥可是顯然你那個效果並不是那麼好所以我們今天特別提出來是不是可以就這個部分去做調整跟改善我想後續的宣導的部分我們會再來加強然後把它的方便性更把它放就是讓農民在買農藥的時候他是完全不會有影響然後反而是對他會有幫助我們會朝這個目標來努力"},{"start":11238.516,"end":11256.255,"text":"院長也是不要跟農民不要跟農民要個資因為我們是農工商我們買了千千百百種的東西甚至也都有政府補助的沒有人需要去繳你的個資說我有多少土地然後我的身份證是什麼"},{"start":11256.775,"end":11257.995,"text":"﹚全世界有很多國家我們的氣候我們的"},{"start":11286.764,"end":11289.245,"text":"我現在要說的是這個個資是不是有必要因為他隨時在調整可是你們要了農民的個資到現在我出去商家我去拜訪還有很多人這樣跟我講他說我們是賊嗎"},{"start":11316.078,"end":11316.258,"text":"﹚中文字幕"},{"start":11336.94,"end":11362.848,"text":"報告委員第一個請農業部相關已經取得的這個農民的個資務必要安全的保護絕對不做他用維護隱私第二個這個實名制應該行之多年如果我們可以從安全考量流向去處價格的穩定或是用量的建議上有其他更適當的方式我請農業部來檢討有更好的親政變名的方式我們朝這個方向來思考"},{"start":11363.168,"end":11381.236,"text":"好這個部分因為為什麼我們特別一直提個資一方面就是我相信農業部我相信我們各部會我們相信行政院我們相信我們所有政府部門不會這麼做可是在必要的時候好像這個個資全部都流出去了他的對象很清楚"},{"start":11381.676,"end":11404.678,"text":"比如說農民他就給什麼樣的訊息這個部分我們特別提出來是希望可以重新檢視因為當他如果在不斷不斷的發生的時候對我們一個民主的國家是一個很大的傷害不曉得是誰給出去可是你沒有辦法控制啊他都是傷人或者他可能是將本求利這個部分如果可以不要你就不應該這個部分"},{"start":11406.56,"end":11421.121,"text":"還是希望可以盡快給我們一個結論跟做具體的做法好不好好謝謝那接下來還是針對我們南投縣因為南投縣的茶葉博覽會我想"},{"start":11422.583,"end":11438.976,"text":"部長其實應該也參加過那茶葉其實不只是台灣重要的一個產業尤其是南投縣非常重要的產業那近幾年過去老實說兩岸關係還不錯的時候有很多茶葉其實是可以銷到大陸"},{"start":11440.177,"end":11440.197,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":11459.239,"end":11483.438,"text":"這是很多茶農的新生那我們好不容易茶博會在南投縣已經舉辦超過10年以上而且越來越成功每年吸引的人數至少超過70萬在官方的統計上面至少有超過70萬人次那他的那個商機就是可能可以在會中或者會後活動以後去做採購的其實"},{"start":11484.699,"end":11484.719,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":11510.16,"end":11510.18,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":11528.885,"end":11543.477,"text":"他可能要縮小規模這個部分是不是可以在這裡特別請院長跟部長可以多做協助因為他剛開始設計的規模大概就是會跟去年前年一樣嘛在疫情過後好不容易又恢復了"},{"start":11544.894,"end":11567.699,"text":"我跟委員說明,像這個部分我們一定全力支持,特別是查柏蘭會其實在這幾年來已經非常非常有名。然後我所了解就是說他除了這個計畫以後他好像還有提另外一個計畫。那我會後我會去檢視,就是我們一定讓這個活動順利的舉辦為前提。那如果說相關的經費如果真的是有不足的地方我們再看怎麼樣的方式來協助。"},{"start":11568.479,"end":11596.768,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝部長因為我們現在是希望樂見各個產業真的有些像觀光產業其實現在都勒緊褲帶有很多人其實都沒有辦法好好的去做生意那對我對他們來說都是很大的影響那如果這個部分只要花一點錢就可以那我們還是謝謝部長剛剛的承諾那我們也希望說今年因為很快就要辦了嘛是不是可以盡快有一個"},{"start":11598.408,"end":11606.444,"text":"各位群同人就是說實際的部分看還有怎麼樣的一個缺口我們再來想辦法協助他們這個活動辦得很好我們都可以去參加"},{"start":11609.109,"end":11635.976,"text":"謝謝,代替縣長因為縣政府主辦那在這裡也代替縣長還有我們所有的我們的茶農很熱誠的邀請院長還有部長還有所有的部會大家可以一起去參加當然還有我們的院長因為他也非常熟悉對南投尤其在農業這一塊那歡迎大家因為就是讓農民更好因為不然他們要面對的挑戰也太多了"},{"start":11637.256,"end":11660.648,"text":"另外就是還有我們鳥嘴潭人工湖的部分因為這個部分經濟部水利署大概斥資202億去建設鳥嘴潭人工湖那它主要的目的當然是為了提供用水主要是彰化彰化大概每日"},{"start":11662.269,"end":11686.108,"text":"紐嘴壇人工湖可以提供25萬噸,彰化站的21萬噸,草屯4萬噸可是在這過程當中其實南投縣在人工湖的規劃設計建造的過程當中其實都非常的支持跟配合甚至連用地的取得地方也都盡量協助所以他其實沒有面臨到很大的困難"},{"start":11686.809,"end":11706.842,"text":"可是現在當時的承諾好像有一點變質了。比如說那時候有說在希望未來這個人工湖除了是這樣子的一個用水的需求以外還可以成為台14線就是我們中壇公路一個很重要的一個觀光廊帶的一個亮點。"},{"start":11709.284,"end":11728.073,"text":"可是我們看到就是說他現在快要完工了那本來規劃的一個這個叫青翠潭森林公園空間發展構想就好像沒有下文了這個部分是不是可以請部長簡要的說明一下"},{"start":11729.52,"end":11739.403,"text":"抱歉抱歉委員這個我待會去再去了解一下好了因為我們還是知道這個因為當時這個跟輸血一樣啊 我在欠貨的時候你有說先給我救啊然後你血輸給我以後我會給你買好的營養品給你補充營養讓你更好不會因為你輸血以後然後就變得很衰弱可是你做好以後那個承諾好像不見了這個部分我們特別希望我們經濟部可以馬上"},{"start":11757.148,"end":11758.028,"text":"謝謝馬文金委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。"},{"start":11787.051,"end":11815.088,"text":"委員會現在在議場二樓很難得來自美國哈佛大學的實習教師而且從哈佛大學然後這個負責人今天是我們這個很難得來自西藏西藏出生的女孩現在在美國哈佛大學歡迎你來臺灣立法院歡迎歡迎我們掌聲歡迎接下來我們請登記第五號謝依鳳委員質詢"},{"start":11827.165,"end":11854.231,"text":"院長早。我想要請卓院長跟我們陳常志還有劉主委。麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部還有劉主委、國發會,謝謝。院長,請教一下,那個我們國發會主委他預估未來的電力成長是每年3%左右,對不對?是吧?"},{"start":11855.41,"end":11859.832,"text":"報告委員,這是經濟部與台電的評估。報告委員,我們評估的方式是台電先做評估。你們是3%,對不對?"},{"start":11887.586,"end":11900.32,"text":"那經濟部長因為他今天出國還沒來嘛那他說未來這個每年成長的3%要主要是以光點來做那個補他的缺口是不是?"},{"start":11901.324,"end":11922.739,"text":"報告委員我們確保我們供電端上來的一定多於退休的所以以2030年為例我們評估大概會增加需求大概7千萬個千瓦700萬個千瓦但我們會增加910萬個千瓦的供應我先跟你說這是109年到113年的發電結構我相信你們看到了"},{"start":11927.822,"end":11951.069,"text":"那我們從110年開始每年的發電的成長就是大概是1%就是在再生能源部分佔比大概是1%佔總供電就是發電結構的1%2%跟1.5%那我們再細看再生能源的部分把那個供電的供需電力供需狀況"},{"start":11953.69,"end":11975.849,"text":"我們可以看到112年相比於111年我們的光電只有成長0.8%那未來如果我們的供電缺口不管未來的成長是1%,2%,3%恐怕光電的成長都足足沒有辦法來彌補那我請問未來怎麼做"},{"start":11977.831,"end":11994.144,"text":"報告委員我們所謂增加是指燃氣機組方面的增加所以會確保這個電絕對夠所以是火力所以未來如果3%增加就是以火力增加是不是而不是以光電增加光電是再多出來"},{"start":11994.773,"end":12022.719,"text":"光電視再多出來嘛那所以我們看到了總統府的淨零碳排委員會的副召集人同董事長他有說我們是不是還在陶醉我們的檢探成績這是你的責任了吧我很清楚淨零碳排是國發會的責任那到底我們淨零碳排的成績是如何的你說"},{"start":12024.4,"end":12049.105,"text":"報告委員我們是有一個減碳路徑我們在2030年要減24%加減1%那我們最近剛盤點完成大概我們目標在可以到23%我再問你一個我們的每度電的碳排量相較於我們臨近貿易競爭的國家是不是偏高"},{"start":12051.756,"end":12070.845,"text":"這是機密嗎?可不可以講?要等到我出了這個院會,你才說這是機密?這不是機密喔,我們是從四個重要的減碳路徑來放分的,一個是台電的減碳路徑,一個是交通的減碳路徑等等這四個路徑。那所以在維持台灣的經濟競爭力的情況下,"},{"start":12075.114,"end":12093.734,"text":"總統府的淨零碳排的副召集人童芷嫻董事長說的,他說的綠能30%,核能30%是最好的減碳的一個配比。你們贊不贊同?左院長你贊不贊同?左院長你說啊,贊不贊同?我們現在絕對沒有能力核能30%"},{"start":12095.214,"end":12102.979,"text":"對啊,綠能你不用講核能,綠能也沒有辦法到達30%,那什麼時候可能到達這樣子的配比?"},{"start":12109.099,"end":12134.705,"text":"綠能30、核能30因為配比50、30、20當中就是這樣的配比那是要循序漸進很多的途徑很多的過程很多的多元發展那所以我們我想請問卓議員長你還是要抱著非核家園的神主牌嗎那怎麼樣子才能夠協助台灣在國際淨零碳排減碳的這一塊上面我們可以循序漸進"},{"start":12135.945,"end":12160.22,"text":"報告委員2002年環境基本法23條所定政府應訂定計劃逐步達成非核交易目標這不是我的神主牌這是我們共同的法律啊現在今年度屢創高溫各地都在停電欸大家都在停電你知道現在發生的是什麼情況嗎"},{"start":12162.176,"end":12177.807,"text":"﹗"},{"start":12177.907,"end":12178.427,"text":"報告委員第一個"},{"start":12204.315,"end":12204.595,"text":"現在國務部長在美國在談"},{"start":12231.323,"end":12250.452,"text":"﹚國會議"},{"start":12250.915,"end":12275.196,"text":"會,會增加出口,但是國部長他因為從半導體來的,他忽略到了其實在我們臺灣最大部分的是中小企業,半導體很多的產品它不需要關稅,但是我們的中小企業,我們的精密機械,我們的船產,它出口是需要關稅的。陳次長你非常清楚對不對?是。"},{"start":12275.876,"end":12292.439,"text":"那境外觀內以及境內觀外可以對於我們的中小企業對於我們的傳產帶來多大的注意?你是不是可以說明?境外觀內的概念是讓我們的中小企業可以成為"},{"start":12293.18,"end":12293.36,"text":"除了"},{"start":12311.573,"end":12311.733,"text":"未來境內關外呢?"},{"start":12329.332,"end":12331.734,"text":"那未來我們如果境外觀內我們的半導體以及我們傳產例如到了日本熊本"},{"start":12349.486,"end":12365.621,"text":"那是不是要帶動我們臺灣的傳產甚至是飲食業者到日本去啊日本人很喜歡我們的珍珠奶茶很喜歡我們的小籠包很喜歡臺灣的所有的美食是不是也能帶出去你怎麼樣推動"},{"start":12366.101,"end":12366.161,"text":"澳洲﹖"},{"start":12388.123,"end":12389.784,"text":"二零中科園區是一個限定就是低用水低汙染的一個園區那"},{"start":12418.155,"end":12437.483,"text":"主委院長,我們張化人沒對不起你們吧?對不對?我們也有投票給你們賴總統吧?我們二零的中科園區用水啊,現在一直招商不足,有可能是用水啊或等等問題,有沒有辦法再生水償?"},{"start":12439.534,"end":12443.517,"text":"拜託你盡快的規劃好不好,因為有非常多的產業,如果談成功了,非常多的產業,像"},{"start":12464.172,"end":12483.097,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":12491.77,"end":12506.298,"text":"你知道其實民間有非常多的特登工廠那特登工廠有可能在105年之後他們設立的就沒有辦法這是一個歷史的演變的過程我們大家都要共同的面對共同的解決"},{"start":12507.278,"end":12510.3,"text":"二、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、"},{"start":12528.37,"end":12528.811,"text":"可不可以?"},{"start":12539.102,"end":12565.468,"text":"有關於這個工廠的相關的問題經濟部再請地方政府也一起來合作經濟部來了解是不是陳次長可不可以因為依照工廠輔導法我們本來就有在輔導這些特登工廠但是如果有這個新的園區我們也會跟他們一起來努力這個要跟地方政府一起來合作這其實是大家共同需要面對共同需要解決的這個特登工廠的問題我相信在臺灣各縣市都有相關的問題"},{"start":12567.108,"end":12593.312,"text":"那未來如果2020的這個原本設計是精密機械園區那未來如果我們擴大也許不叫精密機械或者叫產業園區是不是可以解決我們精密機械其實郭部長也說我們的精密機械產業跟半導體產業已經已經跨入它初階的這樣子的一個機器零組件裡面了"},{"start":12593.672,"end":12612.888,"text":"那未來如果就是境外關內的這個問題可以解決也許我們的精密機械就可以到相關的半導體初階的產地去那也可以促進我們精密機械產業的發展我相信"},{"start":12613.268,"end":12613.508,"text":"好的,謝謝。好,謝謝。以上。"},{"start":12631.974,"end":12640.682,"text":"謝謝協議方委員的質詢。也謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告院會上午質詢到此為止。我們下午2點30分繼續進行經濟組織質詢。謝謝卓院長及各位閣員。現在休息。"},{"start":12775.725,"end":12778.643,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21607.293,"end":21612.935,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會,進行經濟組織質詢,請丁委員學中質詢。感謝大會主席,各部會首長,我邀請到院長、經濟部長、農業部長。"},{"start":21637.472,"end":21638.459,"text":"院長還有兩位部長備詢"},{"start":21648.138,"end":21655.782,"text":"委員好,祝福你,天天快樂。謝謝,院長好。感謝院長和兩位補充這段時間的辛苦。我經常看到我們這個電視轉播,看到院長對著我們國委員,針對地方事業的一個訴求、的因應,我們議長都有真正的人的一個回應。"},{"start":21671.69,"end":21675.613,"text":"也要跟我們議長、我們兩位國長討論到我們婚姻關有一些過分的問題﹖希望說我們行政院加工業部和經濟部可以來幫我們協助。第一項就是當我們婚姻沿海地區因為這個地震浩瀚,有一些地區甚至低於海平面,地勢有差距,造成我們這個海水道關"},{"start":21698.609,"end":21724.906,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":21724.966,"end":21733.01,"text":"院長：經濟部長：將對這次會議的國分可以與我們協助。我現在要請議長和兩位國長來看到我們一個天文草、一個院長的硬體。這海巨道館一定會來了。來,大家看喔。他現在"},{"start":21754.192,"end":21754.733,"text":"臨時提案委員"},{"start":21776.045,"end":21789.159,"text":"我們剛才看到這件事是我們今年幾月不得了的時間,因為這個地層下陷的問題,還遭到天文潮海水倒灌回來,差不多遠距離2公里。我們現在去到現場看,"},{"start":21794.645,"end":21805.431,"text":"我比我們露營更高那天文槽那是非常嚴重附近用一天都造成非常大的一個損失當然我們陳建仁院長他有去跟現場去會談去了解一個事情他有特別提到說我們中央的專業來支持著我們地方解決這個問題希望我們卓院長我們可以延續著我們陳建仁院長"},{"start":21823.1,"end":21828.903,"text":"對臨時的一個承諾,防止臨時共同來解決這個水患的一個問題。剛才我們說到這個風態和異常的大潮,造成了我們今年這個財政,現在已經又六月了,風態開,風態下又兩月九了,我們接下來幾月還會出現這個大潮。"},{"start":21845.79,"end":21852.733,"text":"當然民眾都很緊張,目前要緊急要做的工作就是要來幾月說登記解決一個方案。另外這個所準的工程也要趕時間做回來進行,要應用到我們議員的一個策略。希望說我們中央可以趕緊來"},{"start":21868.16,"end":21868.38,"text":"施政委員．報告委員．"},{"start":21890.469,"end":21905.606,"text":"﹗"},{"start":21905.666,"end":21905.826,"text":"臨時提案委員"},{"start":21920.862,"end":21942.478,"text":"．一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十"},{"start":21944.952,"end":21945.713,"text":"我們的會議也會到那邊來討論"},{"start":21973.527,"end":21982.296,"text":"你出港以後有些海峰的關係也有些沙有嗎?去主導我們的海港的出港一下。這部分我們來想辦法看怎麼處理。好,感謝博長。第二項,針對我們國鄉的水利建設。我們這個水利問題,當我們婦人館政府補貼這個應急工程。"},{"start":21998.234,"end":21998.394,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22015.572,"end":22015.592,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":22031.761,"end":22037.705,"text":"我們為了解決這個問題, 國際的國際規矩和資訊都很需要要緊來處理。我舉例來講, 當我們好位、我們法港、我們其他區域來講重要的國際系統, 這都需要要緊來解決。我們好位就主要有一個30多塊, 30多塊,"},{"start":22054.938,"end":22054.958,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":22070.737,"end":22070.757,"text":"委員長："},{"start":22090.401,"end":22108.166,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":22108.166,"end":22126.169,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":22126.489,"end":22139.052,"text":"是,報告委員,秩序的問題一直是政府登記以來很重視的考慮。我們幾年來也變成相關的相對的一類無線進行。剛才關於我們這個所在地區的進樓的改善工程,都有31件。中央區農路的改善也有26件。這都較為優先的損失要進行。剛才委員所講的那個顧安的保安、白水的保安請經濟部來說明。"},{"start":22152.896,"end":22159.663,"text":"報告委員,我們用這個前瞻計劃,已經報競行政院：前瞻計劃已經近年就結束了：是阿媽你還是我們又延續你：會延續：我們看看優先要處理的地方,所以這個前瞻計劃一定會在…"},{"start":22169.121,"end":22169.401,"text":"再拜託您,再來就我們這個"},{"start":22198.905,"end":22210.108,"text":"都很負責任的問題。實在我現在也要跟我們同樣保證,跟你說說你曾對到我們這個共同計劃的條件,你近日你就公布的事情,讓我和我們這幾個農民都非常地希望,希望說我們保證可以針對我們這個共同計劃的手段,你還要再三思一下。我之前也要跟我們保證說,我們這個"},{"start":22225.848,"end":22240.357,"text":"論壇國,我們就是要鼓掌我們論壇的這個權利。但對於論壇來說,我們這個新口政策,在外就比較好的介紹。我們加一個方法,這個政策的鼓掌,論壇的鼓掌,對著我們論壇國政策,也會得到最重要的一個回應。所以我們先,過去我就沒有參與到,現在參與到,我要積極來請求到,我們分管論壇的這個權利。"},{"start":22255.527,"end":22262.774,"text":"但正正3月下午我就一直在向國長強調到大蒜的問題,蒜頭的問題。就都我分開說,我們這個,我們農業部說,我去修了消息,大量進口蒜頭的那一來,阿基坤土的蒜頭的介紹,"},{"start":22274.424,"end":22282.431,"text":"那時候,我們都有去講到阿根廷、西關牙、埃及的選舉,否則我們現在正靠我們台灣的選舉,有到整個國。"},{"start":22289.088,"end":22305.101,"text":"我向委員報告,就是說我們現在的選舉在進口的時候,它本身有的是從埃及,應該是阿根廷為主,埃及的部分就是為府,因為不同的月份。"},{"start":22306.302,"end":22317.349,"text":"這個部分就是說,我們一定會補充我們的蒜農的生產,所以他們進口的時間會跟我們生產的時間跟我們賣的時間會錯開。所以我在這裏,補充還是跟你再提倡一下,我們阿根廷的蒜頭進口回來的時間是我們台灣種蒜頭的時間。"},{"start":22330.518,"end":22338.506,"text":"我們埃及進口回來的時間對我們好,我們臺灣蒜頭出産的時間。所以,這樣,是不是埃及的蒜頭會去打到我們臺灣本土的蒜頭的基礎。是我們在那裡,我們在那裡,我們在之前,"},{"start":22346.835,"end":22352.298,"text":"方針去把蒜蓉要收蒜頭,都要講解釋23、24日,我六月的蒜頭我就留下,六月的蒜頭就留下什麼蒜頭?就是埃及的蒜頭。對,就是這樣就去打壓到我們這個軍託的蒜頭的這個解釋。這是我們在期間所了解的。所以在這裡要怪託國長,因為我剩3分鐘的時間,我說不完。我在這裡要怪託國長,"},{"start":22374.048,"end":22381.43,"text":"因為我們這個WTO在我們這個關稅契額三千幾噸的這個過分,這就是我們這個國際貿易組織在我們一定要要履行的一個過分。我們如果說將對這個高關稅的算頭,我們相信可以說講解到它的所容,而且說"},{"start":22395.034,"end":22402.916,"text":"尤其是這個阿根廷的蒜頭,它的出産期和我們台灣的出産期是一模一樣的時間,所以它未來明天打入到我們的蒜頭。阿如果發動就是把它作動到說,六、七月、七月一號、七月幾月下,我們台灣的蒜頭用完了,開始要來吃正口蒜頭,我們再開放給人家正口蒜頭。"},{"start":22417.94,"end":22425.046,"text":"這個過分我是一直希望說我們組委員長可以來協助我們論壇合作在這個選舉的一個過程。所以,拜託,我們那個,聽好了,我們跟這個關稅局的過分,我們想可以做一個合理的一個協調,還可以來合作到我們論壇這個事業,像這樣。"},{"start":22443.38,"end":22456.094,"text":"我感謝委員因為都要報對土豆跟大蒜這兩項特別是我們現在用配額的制度配額加上高關稅的部分然後剛才委員講的就是說我們的進口的時間點我們等一下就去討論"},{"start":22459.838,"end":22463.56,"text":"所以我們不是反對進口,我們會反對進口,我們是說這個進口的時間上,時間點,時間點我們要去揭露台灣農園這個收益的感覺。因為這幾年的天氣變化,我們的進口時間稍微有在變動,所以我們的進口時間應該也要做一些調整,我這回去我再來跟我們同仁討論一下。"},{"start":22486.892,"end":22496.694,"text":"好,感謝補充。還有一項,我們還是要把我們這個擁擠業給他們發聲一下。我們這個分業,我們剛才說到我們這個紐西的問題,現在我們說到我們這個擁擠業,我們這個分業當沿海地區,企業是很多啦。我收到很多,首先因為企業的異常,都會收到我們這個大量死亡的狀況。我們農業部都有派到我們這個水產試驗所去廢坑,"},{"start":22515.418,"end":22536.613,"text":"﹗"},{"start":22537.473,"end":22544.037,"text":"．對策．對他們這個復讀的經濟．還是說另外一基金．來協助他們這個．擁擠、擁擠上的．大量私房的問題．。我跟委員報告．分離這個部分因為．"},{"start":22573.94,"end":22574.902,"text":"謝謝丁委員,也謝謝卓院長。"},{"start":22579.462,"end":22601.65,"text":"農產品進口時間的那個滾動檢討是蠻重要的,其實不只蒜頭,好幾樣農產品都有類似的。好,下一位我們請李柏毅,李柏毅委員的質詢以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報。下一位請郭委員欲請質詢。"},{"start":22619.256,"end":22619.276,"text":"國務院議員"},{"start":22694.4,"end":22715.238,"text":"我希望這個這個風氣還有這種的這樣子能夠持續的進行下去是我們也樂見我想這個不管是質詢或者是被詢彼此尊重才是最重要的不管過去或者是現在或者是將來我都不會用上對下這樣子的質詢方式對待我們的這個部會首長謝謝委員謝謝院長"},{"start":22715.899,"end":22735.595,"text":"好,那接下來我想要請教就是農業部這個部分了。那今天我針對所有的主題其實都跟動保相關。那這也是我個人非常關心的一些議題啦。那我想這個私人狗場其實在台灣的問題其實非常非常的多。那就我所知其實2022年我們農業部也曾經有列冊"},{"start":22736.515,"end":22764.939,"text":"說要輔導臺灣大概將近有178家的一些私人購廠,包含他們自己的土地,能夠導向所謂的合法這樣子的一個狀況。但是後來因為土地編定的一個類別的變更,這個成本比較高,那當然也跟所謂的礦業廢食也有一點關係,到後來是無疾而終了。那昨天有一個新聞我相信其實大家都知道了,就是在這個內湖有一位這個寵物業者,"},{"start":22765.506,"end":22793.422,"text":"他因為沒有取得跟鄰居達成一個共識那當然這可能也是跟這個地方就是臺北市土地使用分區管制的自治一個條例有關所以也引發了他自殺這樣子的一個令人遺憾的一些事情不過在這裡我還是要再次重申因為其實寵物是家人那毛小孩的福利保障動物的一個福利其實這樣子的一個觀念其實不是只有這幾年"},{"start":22794.282,"end":22822.382,"text":"我相信將來也是那不管地方自治是怎麼樣來執行其實針對我們的中央在對於所謂的人和動物的實際的一個關係還有他們的法律的一個地位我想這是大家你我都不能夠都是責無旁貸的一件事情那回到這個3月1號我在總質詢的時候當時您也是這個代理的部長我相信您應該有聽到我"},{"start":22824.52,"end":22849.007,"text":"在針對所謂的動保警察的這個部分的一些需求啦我想動保警察的這個議題我們已經討論了非常非常的久那當時其實農業部也跟內政部這邊有承諾說我們要合作設立所謂的動保的警察那後續其實我的辦公室也都持續的有在follow有在追蹤然後甚至有請一些部會的人員也特別來做針對這些細節來做一些討論喔那當時其實我們幾經討論之後"},{"start":22854.909,"end":22877.037,"text":"復語動檢員司法警察權,這個當時是我們大家都覺得是可行,而且可能是有共識的,所以我們也盡量希望能夠往這個部分來做前進。當然也要搭配所謂的一些配套的措施,包含人員要怎麼招聘,然後他們要專業要怎麼訓練,還有他們的待遇跟加級的部分是要怎麼樣來擬定。"},{"start":22878.257,"end":22878.297,"text":"﹚發言委員﹚"},{"start":22898.571,"end":22926.119,"text":"因為他們說這個賦予動保警察權可能會對現有的一些制度會有一些些的重大的影響那這影響到底是什麼那不可行的原因又是什麼然後又說了一個月後會有一個報告所以現在無法透露到底有什麼是不能說的秘密在這裡我們不要把它當秘密因為我想這是全民的期待啦動保警察在國外"},{"start":22927.179,"end":22927.199,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":22945.328,"end":22945.348,"text":"委員長"},{"start":22964.281,"end":22969.024,"text":"我們先處理這個區塊讓我們動保檢查人員能夠進到私領域然後第二個階段因為動保警察本身我們那時候考慮到現在的動保人員他的流動率非常高"},{"start":22989.415,"end":23010.875,"text":"那相對的你要去賦予警察的司法職權的時候他必須相關的一個授訓然後動保的一個技能他也要授訓所以我們是希望要有正式的比較正式的編制的時候才有可能把它結在一起不然你直接讓這個動保人員去做司法警察的工作的時候他的流動率很高的時候就會造成一些缺口"},{"start":23011.395,"end":23027.797,"text":"我剛剛有說嘛,包含人員的訓練這也是很重要。只是說我們每一次在討論到這個話題的時候,像這樣子的一個說法就進來了。但是就每一次大概就幾個月又聽到類似的這樣子的一個說法,那到底我們什麼時候才能夠真正的實施?"},{"start":23028.677,"end":23047.872,"text":"我的做法就是說我分兩階段先把動保檢查人員能夠賦予他的職權能夠進到私領域去查這個先走然後第二個部分其實我們也在跟人事總書再去處理因為我們希望說爭取的是一個不管是地方政府也好有一個正式的人員的資格那這樣的話以後的授訓"},{"start":23048.993,"end":23052.454,"text":"那有一些規劃但是大概什麼時候可以有一個比較進程的一個計劃因為剛剛有提到他說一個月後會有一個明確的報告是嗎"},{"start":23077.697,"end":23097.98,"text":"對我們的報告就是包括我們的動保檢查人員在執行這些司法警察的相關的權利的時候他必須要有的職能然後這些職能本身的這些基準跟他的後面的一個訓練計畫我們會先把它做一個完整的擬定了以後然後人員的部分我們會積極的跟人事總書這邊去了解"},{"start":23098.308,"end":23125.991,"text":"所以動保司回應我的就是一個月之後會有一個比較完整的一個計畫,初步的一個計畫。對,我會跟他們在討論,把一個很明確的這些我們做的進度來跟委員報告。好,那接著下來我要問一下就是關於所謂的認養的黑名單跟灰名單之類的問題。這個其實也是一個問題。我想現在只要有身分證字號或者是出生年月日,其實我們都可以在寵登的系統上面,其實就可以看得出來說這個人他有沒有違反動保法。"},{"start":23126.391,"end":23151.954,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":23152.334,"end":23181.125,"text":"一般民眾他是可以藉由寵登的系統去查得到就是說我要領養我貓狗的人他有沒有什麼樣的一個不良的記錄但是呢就針對所謂的違反家暴法的記錄這個部分一般民眾其實在一般的系統上面其實是看不到的那這個說法呢是說隱私權那我想呢同樣的就是說違反動保法的記錄我們看得到違反家暴法的記錄我們卻看不到"},{"start":23182.405,"end":23183.606,"text":"這個標準是怎麼定出來的?"},{"start":23203.015,"end":23226.508,"text":"但是因為是公家的送養單位是可以查,但是民間是不可以查得到的,因為他簽得到特別是在家暴的部分,如果他犯有一些刑事的這些狀況的時候,那變成是一個蠻嚴重的一個隱私的一個揭露。那在這個部分其實為了保障他的隱私,而且現在目前也沒有規定說我曾經有家暴我就不能認養。"},{"start":23228.13,"end":23243.647,"text":"這個之間的關聯性我們只把列為高風險區所以後續我現在也在跟同仁討論就是說怎麼樣用一個市井的方式而不是揭露這個個人本身的過去的這個紀錄我覺得用高風險的概念提出一個市井"},{"start":23245.047,"end":23258.672,"text":"這個也是我們比較擔心因為我們知道有很多的所謂的情商有一些狀況的包含我們曾經講過的查查案其實就是恐怖情人所為嘛所以其實會有這樣子的傾向的人他極有可能就是"},{"start":23259.172,"end":23274.428,"text":"﹗"},{"start":23274.988,"end":23294.153,"text":"我想只是可以再揭露個人資訊,它的詳細的資訊的前提之下,用風險的等級去讓送飲單位去做查核。那這樣的話我想一方面保護了個人的隱私,一方面也確保我們的寵物給領養人的時候是一個受到照顧的一個對象。"},{"start":23295.473,"end":23308.27,"text":"是,好那接下來就是也是在我上一次其實在總質詢我有特別提到的啦就是我們的入境檢疫所的一個放寬的一個這個方式啦就是寵物的這個主人本身"},{"start":23308.732,"end":23334.254,"text":"他想要去多次的去探望自己就是帶回來從國外帶回來的這個貓狗的一個狀況如果他是在檢疫所當中但是目前為止我那時候其實有特別講過我們家如果貓貓狗狗我們要出國的時候也是送旅館那旅館其實也有24小時我隨時只要跟他就是連線之後我可以看得到我自己的貓狗在寵物旅館的一個狀況那沒道理我們自己本身的檢疫所是做不到的"},{"start":23334.614,"end":23355.104,"text":"那這個部分呢,現在大概做到什麼樣的地步?我非常認同委員的說法,就是我們現在針對隔離檢疫的這個場合,特別在關於我們已經提供一些經費給他做一些基本的維修,讓他的這個7天的隔離的時間會比較好的一個舒適環境。那第二個部分是...碳濕的次數可以增加嗎?對,然後..."},{"start":23357.153,"end":23381.051,"text":"那個監測的即時的監測我會要求他們就是說因為現在每一個龍都有監視器然後我給他一個特定的帳號密碼他就在他隔離期間他隨時可以看而不是說現在目前你打電話來我在提供我覺得是被動的服務我希望說做一個主動的服務好像貓狗旅館這個我想我們盡快會去實施然後第三個部分是探視的部分那探視的部分大概現在"},{"start":23381.912,"end":23409.503,"text":"北部的在觀音的部分是可以有預約的那南部是中興大學跟平科大本身的授意願他是因為他教學意願他本身是沒有辦法接受預約的部分但這個部分我想我們會再跟他協調因為我想自己的寵物到了一個陌生的環境之下可能會有一些恐慌多讓事主去探視我覺得這是必要的啦所以我會朝這個方向去努力然後看不到的時候用監視器來看大概用這樣的一個方式來處理"},{"start":23409.943,"end":23435.82,"text":"因為我們知道其實小港機場的入境的這個隔離檢驗所他們是必須要寵物的主人到當地就是到檢驗所裡面我還是要透過鏡頭才能看得到我是沒有辦法直接跟自己的寵物接觸的這個部分我覺得是有一點稍微比較冰冷一點這個部分可以稍微再改我了解整個的過程我覺得有些東西是太有需要可以再精進的一個地方我一定會去朝這個方向來做"},{"start":23436.74,"end":23451.614,"text":"謝謝部長。接下來當然還有多元寵物分類分級的管理的制度。因為現在其實不管在夜市也好、夾娃娃店也好,其實我們都會看得到類似就是多元不同的寵物已經不再只是貓狗而已了。"},{"start":23452.194,"end":23452.214,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":23470.632,"end":23493.748,"text":"一般像貓啊狗啊這個其實就是屬於所謂的寵物的白名單但是針對這個所謂的白名單的部分其實當然也有我們要重點的一個動物福利的一個主旨來做一個指引就教導民眾要怎麼樣來重視動物的一個福利那另外就是在黑名單的部分其實還有落日條款"},{"start":23494.228,"end":23495.209,"text":"我跟委員說明就是去年8月1號我們農業部成立的一個動保師"},{"start":23512.944,"end":23537.826,"text":"那其實動保師現在目前正在積極去做這樣子的一個工作特別是我們在犬隻的因為事主的責任是一個非常重要的所以我們已經訂定有關於事主本身的一個飼養責任的一個指引跟檢索這樣一方面有可以給事主去了解一方面也可以給動保檢查人員去了解然後第二個部分就是我們現在正在做動保法的修法那動保法的修法"},{"start":23552.69,"end":23561.353,"text":"好好好,謝謝國務委員謝謝院長還有部長下一位請陳素悅委員質詢"},{"start":23594.749,"end":23601.054,"text":"謝謝主席。請主席邀請卓院長還有農業部陳部長。卓院長還有陳部長請備詢。委員好。院長武安還有部長武安。"},{"start":23614.52,"end":23633.678,"text":"我們知道雞蛋是民生的必需品不管是家庭的需求或者是餐飲業、糕餅業等等都有很大的一個需求我們看到缺蛋的時候因為買不到蛋而且蛋價上揚就會造成消費者有怨言產量過剩的時候"},{"start":23635.84,"end":23636.161,"text":"昨天週四﹐"},{"start":23659.441,"end":23660.342,"text":"﹚一、二、三、四、五﹚一、二、三、四、五﹚"},{"start":23686.147,"end":23706.332,"text":"所以就是會進口這個雞蛋來供應這個市場的一個需求那現在雞蛋每天的一個生產量的過剩應該將近有32萬顆那針對這樣子的一個產量過剩的問題我們政府有沒有什麼對策來幫忙處理這個產量過剩的部分讓價格不要崩盤"},{"start":23707.755,"end":23728.602,"text":"我跟委員說明一下,就是整個氮基產業它有它的一個產業鏈,從總基、除基、氮中基到氮基,那整個產業鏈走一遭的時候至少要7個月左右,那相對的就是我們現在目前的整個氮的一個需求量大概比過往的平均值大概多32萬克左右,但是比較"},{"start":23730.043,"end":23749.462,"text":"﹗"},{"start":23749.582,"end":23778.147,"text":"所以我們趁這個機會希望說他能夠加速他的淘汰而不是去做一個補償所以我們希望說他平均每個月大概淘汰120萬隻那我們希望說他能夠加速淘汰那他在加速淘汰的部分我們目標是大概180萬隻那相對的就能夠讓他比較有效的把這些生產蛋的效率不佳的老母雞淘汰然後引進一些比較優質的這個健康的一個雞讓他的產蛋效率比較高"},{"start":23778.607,"end":23805.741,"text":"但是更重要就是整個產銷的供需裡面其實某一部分是市場機制但是政府我想農業部也不會放任他們完全是市場機制所以我們在供需求的部分我們還會透過很多這種超市賣場的部分能夠帶頭去降低它的末端的售價那末端的售價如果做四度的調降的時候那會刺激相關的消費者那消費者現在很多都在觀望為什麼"},{"start":23806.821,"end":23814.613,"text":"產地價降了這麼多十幾塊了但是消費端的單價還是維持在高檔的地方所以這個部分我們會積極的去溝通讓這個產銷的這個狀況能夠更加的一個平穩"},{"start":23819.539,"end":23837.272,"text":"市長剛提到這個市場機制當然我們知道有這個市場機制可是我們現在要問的就是說在缺氮的時候我們就會進口氮來彌補這個供應的這個數量那現在就是過剩了那過剩的部分你要怎麼處理你有沒有辦法去幫忙銷到銷價能啊"},{"start":23840.514,"end":23844.939,"text":"這樣子才能夠讓這個就是減輕這個就是提高這個需求量嘛那因為尤其啊就是說我們在這個單價在持續下跌的時候我們也看到中央續產會啊還釋出了這個一千萬顆的這個是進口蛋嘛"},{"start":23858.601,"end":23880.498,"text":"所以這個部分是不是可以請部長說明一下,因為這個部分基農也很不滿,這個彈農也很不滿。我跟委員說明,就是區長會釋出的這些,最主要是以這個彈粉或液彈為主。然後有一部分是茶葉彈,比較少部分。那這個部分特別是在液彈的部分是在加工噴條用的部分。那我昨天特別也跟"},{"start":23881.178,"end":23882.759,"text":"﹚二、5月30日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。﹚二、6月30日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。﹚"},{"start":23902.913,"end":23928.185,"text":"在這個時間點,你如果進場去收購的時候,蛋農就不會去做調節。反正生了蛋就有政府來收的時候,會造成說這個產業的老母雞的淘汰會更加的不順利。所以我們分兩個階段,就是說當你的老母雞的淘汰到了一定的水準以後,我們就可以開始有一部分的這種所謂的滾動倉儲的概念能夠導入。"},{"start":23930.755,"end":23942.122,"text":"當然就是剛剛你有講到這個整個彈機的一個生產就是它有一定的一個期程就是一個節奏那淘汰老母機所以我們也擔心就是說從總機到這個老母機到這個母機然後生蛋這樣子一個生產的一個過程"},{"start":23950.708,"end":23971.032,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":23971.032,"end":23987.022,"text":"﹗"},{"start":23987.182,"end":23987.322,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":24015.994,"end":24041.988,"text":"還有這個什麼總計來不及供應的問題所以這些問題我們是不是要好好的去掌握然後怎麼去解決那部長你說我想非常謝謝那個委員的一個建議跟提醒我們也深刻的去檢討本身的一個雞蛋的一個產銷那我個人覺得就是說在112年的時候那是因為潛流感全世界大規模的發生造成就算你在生產的時候也不夠"},{"start":24042.688,"end":24064.36,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":24064.36,"end":24089.497,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":24089.673,"end":24114.71,"text":"是,好,就是說這整個生產資訊真的很重要要去掌握然後要就是才能夠去掌握這個生產的一個供需量那另外就是說目前蛋農遇到的問題就是這個蛋價已經不敷成本了那很多蛋農都覺得說他們撐不下去了那你還要等你說這個淘汰老母雞真的對他們幫助不大我們還有什麼比較實質上的幫助"},{"start":24115.25,"end":24139.287,"text":"我們還有一個就是現在的彈機的飼料的部分因為飼料我們從7月開始我們又延了上個月降低它的營業稅的部分我們現在正在跟飼料廠再去做洽談因為他們降價的幅度他們過去現在說有兩三次的降價可是那個降價的幅度"},{"start":24140.52,"end":24140.54,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":24171.02,"end":24192.987,"text":"院長我們知道就是我們看到這個科技的這個AI教父就是黃仁勳執行長他來到臺灣可以說是刮起了這個AI的一個旋風那再加上過去我們也看到台積電是我們的護國神山那他在我們國內設廠也引起我們地方很多縣市爭相爭取希望去那邊投資設廠"},{"start":24194.768,"end":24204.235,"text":"可是在我們彰化縣對彰化縣來說像是不是請教卓院長就你所了解啊彰化縣有沒有可能爭取這個台積電或輝達來設廠"},{"start":24207.283,"end":24231.546,"text":"世界的大廠能夠到台灣來投資都是我們歡迎的但是我們也要做好所有的基礎設施包括水電的供應還有整個投資環境工作環境等等那我們會給這些大廠充足的資訊告訴他他的產業在哪裡我們能夠提供最好的服務給他我想最終的決定還是在在他們我知道很多的縣市包括首長民意代表"},{"start":24231.866,"end":24234.007,"text":"我只知道彰化是雞蛋下最多的地方。"},{"start":24258.295,"end":24264.142,"text":"張嬅縣市勞工平均薪資最低的地方為什麼會最低?卓院長你知道嗎?就業的關係"},{"start":24267.128,"end":24286.354,"text":"因為都是傳統產業,因為傳統產業薪資本來就是維持在那樣的一個薪資水平。所以你要怎樣拉高彰化縣的一個平均勞工的一個薪資,只有就是一定要有這個大的科技廠、大的一個產業來進駐,才有可能一方面帶動這個產業的發展、繁榮,然後也才有可能"},{"start":24291.42,"end":24291.44,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":24310.175,"end":24339.401,"text":"報告委員其實目前我們去盤點過彰化的這個水跟電都沒有問題啦尤其彰化目前就一個超高壓的這個用電戶其他的整個這個供電部分是足夠水也是足夠的那請教次長您知道就您這樣說的話那是不是那個中科二林中科可以爭取柴基電跟那個輝達來設廠那個因為是縣政府開發的工業區我們會積極來跟地方政府合作"},{"start":24343.168,"end":24346.211,"text":"因為二嶺中科它當初在開發的時候就是有那個環評就是有高耗能就是高耗水的一個限制就是限定在低耗能低耗水的產業進駐"},{"start":24366.075,"end":24367.115,"text":"我們再來跟地方政府討論,再來跟縣政府討論"},{"start":24389.438,"end":24408.543,"text":"因為他是縣政府的工業區,不是經濟部主管,所以我們會站在從旁協助的立場來跟縣政府討論。這個程序我現在沒有辦法完整的回答,不過因為他是縣政府開發工業區,我們會站在從旁協助的立場來協助。"},{"start":24410.969,"end":24433.98,"text":"我想當初會有這樣子的一個環評的一個條件的限制我想可能也是考慮到供水跟供電的問題那因為彰化縣沒有水庫沒有水庫所以在用水上當然地方當初可能就是會去擔憂到說是不是會排擠到民生用水或農業用水可能有這樣子的一個考量"},{"start":24434.85,"end":24454.424,"text":"所以在這樣子的外部條件,事實上我們是可以去改善的嘛,去強化的嘛,是不是,院長?報告委員,在水的部分,水利署現在有要做這個臺中彰化,還有雲林這邊的這個調度,我們希望未來能夠有所改善。"},{"start":24455.336,"end":24463.738,"text":"是,那個電的部分因為我們彰化的外海就是整個臺灣應該說是最優質最大的這個離岸風電廠那目前我們在外海的這個就是風機的離岸風電的這個發電量應該有達到3%至4%了所以在這個用電上應該是很足夠那這個水的部分呢"},{"start":24478.662,"end":24495.339,"text":"因為我們也看到目前政府在從北到南都有在規劃這個海淡廠,獨獨就是彰化縣沒有。所以我覺得說這個部分是不是我們希望中央政府也可以來規劃考量設置這個海淡廠解決這個用水的問題。所以這樣子的話強化了這個水電的條件之後這個科技產業才有可能來進駐。"},{"start":24501.872,"end":24515.856,"text":"報告委員現在水是足夠的而且未來會要求50%以上用再生水所以我們先做再生水那個水還會有多所以目前看起來水跟電都不是問題我們先要來解決園區的管理規定這應該是第一個題目"},{"start":24534.609,"end":24551.973,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝陳委員,謝謝卓院長。黃秀芳委員及蔡其昌委員之質詢均以書面提出,請行政院書面回覆,並列入紀錄刊登公報。下一位我們請張祺凱委員質詢。"},{"start":24588.98,"end":24590.642,"text":"今天是國會該局議員第一天總質詢。我看你早上要進來。"},{"start":24610.097,"end":24610.818,"text":"但是就不是以身處罰"},{"start":24622.706,"end":24645.129,"text":"不只不要觸法,而且這不是常識的事,應該是來這邊做一個很合適的楷模、示範。好,事實上很簡單嘛,第一個,不要反質詢嘛。阿弟弟不要當木頭人,該知道的事情不要故意不回答。然後不要說謊話,就是不要做虛偽的陳述。很簡單嘛,對不對?你今天已經經過一整天了。今天一整天怎麼樣?感覺跟以前有不一樣嗎?"},{"start":24646.05,"end":24668.826,"text":"到目前為止都不錯到目前為止都不錯不只是以身試著試就是有合適的試法了就可以好來我們從以身試法來開始啦來我們來看一下這個看圖說故事好不好來我們來看這個圖我們的機能齁今年欠很多對不對所以這個今年我們去買進口的機能買一個五千萬五百對不對"},{"start":24671.857,"end":24685.987,"text":"那後來當然有出現五千多萬顆這個彈作廢的這個事情可是這個產銷的方式是對的因為彈不過嘛對不對進彈隊嘛對不對阿今年都必到病阿今年到病太多嘛對不對阿問問請問議長阿今年呢這個為國啊再進口彈進來對嗎"},{"start":24691.361,"end":24718.414,"text":"當然要很有計劃的去生產而且要做調節的工作那國外進口的蛋他如果是慣例我們可能把它做另外一個使用但是不要影響市場上的價格跟民生的需求政府的政見就是產銷要平衡嘛對不對那今年太少了要加東西所以過關一萬對不對那今年加太多了應該減法嘛所以我們剛剛講的答案就是不會從國外再進來了可是最近都嚇爆中華市場會這幾個動作"},{"start":24720.148,"end":24720.168,"text":"我講"},{"start":24747.136,"end":24772.157,"text":"農業部跟單商一定有相當的計劃跟用途這樣做,這個如果沒有影響到市場價格跟整個民生的穩定,所以要進一步的來評估,這不是單從一個數字上來考慮的。一定有影響,上禮拜產地一斤是27.5元,這禮拜落2元下去,而且已經快接近有史以來最低了。"},{"start":24773.055,"end":24785.991,"text":"最低了喔!他當然是有衝擊啊!當然是有衝擊啊!沒有沒有,我做一個比較理性的這個呼籲好不好?剛才陳素玥嘛,民進黨的李卉也在呼籲啊!我們現在趕快再幫我們的鄧榮解決問題好不好?我們來想幾個方法第一個"},{"start":24794.217,"end":24816.476,"text":"我昨天執行你完之後,你現在不會再賣了齁?先停下來,我們先把它暫停,因為他現在是公告而已啦,公告的部分啦。對,我們先把它停下來。我從2月份開始追雞蛋了,結果最近基金人各位齁,你們從5月17號開始倒這個蛋出去,很多基金人是很抗議的,因為很多基金人也是基金民進動的啊。"},{"start":24818.05,"end":24838.181,"text":"先停下來先停下來你這個有點像那個落井下石恭喜他已經已經但就賣不出去其實齁整幾天的報紙是有報的那個蛋已經兜到有些那個因為買飼料的錢還還還不夠啊有些是拿去餵豬因為要減少那個進到市面上那個蛋那個那個數量嘛結果你在這邊還火上加油一直企駕他們在企駕我們台灣威就這樣"},{"start":24839.562,"end":24843.204,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、"},{"start":24861.476,"end":24863.357,"text":"我們要求以民生穩定跟價格穩定來照顧大家,這個當成唯一的標準"},{"start":24891.596,"end":24920.775,"text":"今天很清清楚楚跟我們的全國民眾講,不會賣了,這是第一點。第二個,四千多萬顆,原則上也不會賣了,除非到時候蛋不夠,好不好?好,那我們現在更進一步來看怎麼可以幫這些蛋喔。目前就是一直在崩壞嘛,剛才陳師傅在講的。我們做一些事情啊,第一點可以嗎?透過國金桌桌有雞蛋來加菜,這是不是一個方針?以前香蕉太多就買香蕉啊,幫國金來加菜啊。一定我先跟你講齁,這是誰的建議你知道嗎?"},{"start":24921.874,"end":24935.345,"text":"這是民進黨的總裁選舉。我覺得不分黨派只要是幫人民解決問題的立委都是好立委。可以考慮一下這個事嗎?這個絕對是有助於穩定的。我們現在的基段每一天多出32萬顆。"},{"start":24937.408,"end":24956.039,"text":"國慶若有幫忙這是一個好不好可以想一下已經在執行了那我們也可以做現在我每天都吃兩顆蛋好不好大概一個禮拜內做這個決定好不好我們已經有詢問給國軍還有一些相關的團戰業者你有跟他聯絡了是不是對好加油好不好一個禮拜內看到答案好不好那第二個"},{"start":24957.369,"end":24957.489,"text":"可以買嗎?"},{"start":24971.238,"end":25000.005,"text":"我們現在分兩個部分一個部分就是因為進口飼料我們的營業稅已經把它減免到9月底所以我們希望說飼料我們跟飼料公會在協商希望說他能夠把這些降稅有沒有免那個營業稅的部分能夠回饋給我們的我們個生產端的一個基農這個部分我們會先去處理所以你一個禮拜有沒有你一個禮拜內把你的評估報告你怎麼做我們已經隨時在跟他們溝通了還有另外一個事情就是你長大以外這台手機那台手機有沒有"},{"start":25000.936,"end":25024.992,"text":"九年能太多買到太多對不對?你的方法是把它打成一彈嘛因為一彈打完一彈之後可以保存一年我特別問你啊你九年就知道能進口太多你就做一彈啊啊現在我們台灣我們自己的本土能太多啊你想都沒想到說稍後去收購一些進來收購進來啊你一樣去做一彈啊跟九年一樣九年太多就做一彈嘛今年你去買以後"},{"start":25026.465,"end":25045.642,"text":"做成液彈有兩個好處,第一,你買了以後市面上的雞蛋價格就上來了嘛。我跟你保證明天雞蛋的價格就上來了。而且很重要的,因為你做成液彈你可以用一年對不對。你賣年是一年如果這麼有需要,就所謂的產銷平衡喔,你隨時當可以出去啊。"},{"start":25047.743,"end":25067.35,"text":"我先跟委員報告,就是到市場裡面去把彈收進來以後變成一個滾動倉儲的一個部分,那個時間也要掌握得好。因為你的時間如果先做的時候,我們產業界的這些彈籠反正有人收嘛,他就不會去淘汰老母雞,他就每天下彈給你收。所以這個時間點..."},{"start":25071.312,"end":25075.356,"text":"市長是答應說要評估這個事情嗎?市長是答應說要評估這個事情嗎?市長是答應說要評估這個事情嗎?市長是答應說要評估這個事情嗎?市長是答應說要評估這個事情嗎?市長是答應說要評估這個事情嗎?"},{"start":25091.03,"end":25109.804,"text":"沒有,這個我想我們在操作這個的時候,我們沒有辦法做預告。預告的部分,所有的彈籠這邊齁,他就,老母雞就不淘汰了。所以我覺得時間點...那你以前的雞蛋其實有燒到新加坡,燒到香港,甚至連美國都燒了。現在雞蛋外剩這麼多?"},{"start":25111.298,"end":25129.464,"text":"農業部趕快去幫忙外銷有沒有可能?對,我們這個方面也在努力啦,然後那個有關於叫市長裡面去收的那個滾動倉儲的部分我們會試時間點會進場。來,博定,我再問你一件事,你說你兩千萬賣出來,我剛跟你講,你現在不是只有這兩千萬,兩千多萬顆對不對,後續還有四千多萬顆不要再賣了,可能還出現一個問題齁,我來跟你討論一下,你那個蛋啊,"},{"start":25139.266,"end":25162.779,"text":"是去年包括巴西超市巴西大馬對不對我看你那個公告中央續產會裡面有這個公告你看右上角一定你看這個右上角他這個雞蛋啊現在月五月十七開始喔飆售我等一下講啊那有結論啦嘛齁這個時間點已經太多在飆售已經是不對了可是另外一個大問題他賣雞蛋的時間要賣到什麼時候今年12月27號啊滷蛋賣到什麼時候明年六月二十四"},{"start":25169.397,"end":25196.282,"text":"你去年,保定來來,我保定來,我保定來,我先跟你講,我先跟你講,你先注意右上角,好來,我給你看下一張。你今年超市會給兩銅杯要一百,三,今年引起那麼多爭端的進口彈,巴西彈最後進來的有效期限就是到尾,對不對?所以最多最多,這個一彈我們放一年喔,他再怎麼撐怎麼撐,撐到今年的9月27號應該要到期了,對不對?"},{"start":25198.371,"end":25218.331,"text":"你現在的彈,你看看下面我寫的,你這個公告上面寫的,冷凍前彈的液跟爐彈是什麼?巴西彈、土耳其、泰國、澳洲、美國。你拿過去的能到市面上去賣嗎?我想這個部分可能是委員的誤會。第一個部分就是我們做加工的時候會根據"},{"start":25220.031,"end":25220.691,"text":"對阿,阿你過去要過去的結論"},{"start":25245.888,"end":25254.709,"text":"你過期的你就已經銷毀了嘛五千多萬顆你就已經銷毀了嘛我一直逼你你銷毀了嘛那現在快過期的就即時彈你把它做成彈液嘛彈液想怎樣保存老古"},{"start":25255.489,"end":25275.79,"text":"他要跟他的那個那個製造的包括你液氮或是氮粉啊那個我可能超過10年這個是自己專家跟這個專家跟全世界最多標示的10年你要變成化石液液氮是不是沒有這個部分齁到底可以保存多久會跟他的製程有關但是詳細的我可能現在沒辦法回答你我回去會去查OKOK好"},{"start":25277.211,"end":25299.203,"text":"因為現在所有的專家都講說最多一年了,我們也是專家所以我尊重你,你回去查如果有超過一年。我可以保證我們絕對釋出的時候絕對不會超過效期,那如果說室內的蛋如果是夠的話我絕對也不會釋出,我一定會讓它報廢,我寧願報廢也不會釋出,去影響到我們市場的一個蛋價。"},{"start":25301.284,"end":25319.339,"text":"我會請部長很嚴肅的去看這件事情,這個一定站在民眾安全、食品安全的這個條件上面,才做相關的加工跟釋出。如果違背了這個原則,我們寧願讓他就銷毀掉。好,那個部長,你明天下班前,今天拜我齁。"},{"start":25320.322,"end":25328.324,"text":"我會馬上禮拜一馬上通知你其實我的質疑是非常清楚第一台北的專家都說彈力只能放一彈只能放一年因為你專家我尊重你回去問第二你續產會的公告清清楚楚講你現在賣的是什麼東西包括"},{"start":25347.847,"end":25374.559,"text":"當時的巴西彈,巴西彈話來講,到九月就一直停了,好不好?你是打在一起的嘛,OK,你炒情色喔,好不好?不要賣到過期的,好不好?好來,我們繼續就來看超市的問題啦。剛才講到這裏再講,去年,就是因為你超市那時候買太多,銷毀完你又有液彈的問題才引申出來。超市到目前為止,我已經從2月份開始好幾次質詢你也所知了嘛,這個案子很有可能就是我們國會,國會調查的第一個案子。"},{"start":25375.867,"end":25400.311,"text":"國會調查的第一個案子目前還有五個大問題目前沒有合約對不對沒有時機就是沒有以前沒有經驗第三我要證明你到現在沒有給我後面那兩個可能更嚴重這個事情我們去日本前年去買雞蛋的時候日本那時候是E區喔所以我一直跟你講說你從日本什麼地方來你到現在還沒給我我要你檢驗證明你聽我說來來來我先問你一個事情來我們看下一張來你看這張圖來"},{"start":25406.752,"end":25407.172,"text":"你2023年都要召開會議"},{"start":25434.901,"end":25456.218,"text":"你去年同樣是操司,是怎樣?今年就不用開?這不是黑箱,什麼才是黑箱?我再問一次,我先把問題問清楚。你去年同樣是操司,同一個操司。去年為操司去巴西買農的時候,你自己開了公開召集者會議,召商。"},{"start":25458.559,"end":25486.095,"text":"四個條件符合財政超知金買單對不對?雖然超知出了很多問題現在很多人去告現在北檢裡面還有還告了陳吉仲還告了那個中央巨產會的錢淑偉可是你看那時候你還做了這個事情你現在往前推千年你再一次買兩個沒有會議所以當然也沒有條件現在我問你你說還沒有合約是不是黑箱什麼是黑箱回落落啊所以到目前為止為止我沒有看到他該有的東西啊"},{"start":25486.954,"end":25502.622,"text":"可不可以有一分鐘,我跟委員說明,112年,我們要講清楚112年的時候,超市第一個有合約,那合約是符合這個條件,那當初會用合約的方式是因為那時候全球的一個疫情,"},{"start":25503.302,"end":25503.322,"text":"﹚一、"},{"start":25522.419,"end":25544.389,"text":"續常會給他補助說用例行的產料調節並沒有去做專案的會議去討論在這個前提之下他每一個每一個禮拜大概是一櫃啦一櫃的雞蛋進來所以他本身是為了我們那時候的物價消費的物價本身有點有點蠢蠢欲動我們希望說配合穩定物價的一個政策做適當的進口雞蛋來做彌補"},{"start":25547.19,"end":25574.8,"text":"所以那個時候本身我們也說你要用合約也可以要用買斷的方式我們都會尊重所以用買斷所以超市是用買斷的方式所以一百一十一是用買斷一百一十二是合約他們是不同年度的現在人民的疑問為什麼會想說有沒有納匯納匯人民納稅錢有沒有關上過節嗎這間超市五十萬前年的九月五號成立誕生的日期隔了"},{"start":25575.947,"end":25603.443,"text":"不到1、2個月,你就給那個大訂單,中央市長會就給那個大訂單,被請完滿。這裡面已經充滿了疑問,你又沒有合約,你剛講說要買斷,這裡面都有很多事情要查,要再追啦,這就是為什麼要成立調查聽證委員會,要去查第一個案子,這是第一點,聽我講,那我也跟你,那你有一個證明方式嘛,你就說李祥古,你以為他以前進國都巴西蛋啊,進國都日本蛋啊,問題是那時候他也沒經驗嗎?你為什麼要找他,這麼小的一個公司,"},{"start":25606.229,"end":25633.738,"text":"五十萬資本額的公司老闆出一千塊錢馬上成立後一兩個月在中央市長會七百千億的這個蛋的這個生意然後我跟你要他的為什麼你要找他他沒有經驗查出來沒有經驗對不對沒有像去年的時候有經驗嘛前年沒有啦更離譜的我告訴你你告訴我一份那邊有人推薦我跟你要證明你到現在也沒有給我啊至少一個推薦書吧來保證我再問你比較嚴重的其實是要在後面來來來"},{"start":25635.168,"end":25659.677,"text":"我從6月13日去你所知啊,我剛才講過,為了人民的健康啊,就站在人民的立場。那時候日本爆發了禽流感。我跟你要兩個東西,從13日你所知到現在你沒辦法。問得很簡單欸,既然是禽流感爆發的地區,它是日本兩個地方來的蛋啊,一定要檢疫報告嘛。"},{"start":25661.55,"end":25690.632,"text":"你為什麼到現在不給我我跟委員說明齁這個東西其實委員在說明的時候我回去就問了而且查了也看到了就是說他在日本進口的時候他是一個非疫生產區因為他是用輔導縣市本身去做疫區的控管所以我也確認說那時候所進口的蛋並不是從非疫區來的那防檢局在這個部分是有絕對的把關那至於說沒有提供委員我回去會去查"},{"start":25691.152,"end":25698.978,"text":"因為這個資訊是非常明確的。我在這邊可以確認。對,所以你要給他們很明確的名字。對,一定會給你。對,我看過了。因為日本那個時候發生了什麼,他們叫做縣道嘛。那個縣道裡面發生的疫情是情形之類的。他有檢疫的報告嘛。對,所以這個部分我想我們一定。好,你回去查。"},{"start":25708.584,"end":25723.168,"text":"還有一個我要跟委員說明就是說我在111年的時候我不可能去預測說112年會有那麼大的缺氮然後會去圖利超市先讓他做業績然後112年再去讓他去賺這個錢因為我們在111年絕對不可能預測112會有這麼大的缺氮這個我想我必須要澄清的"},{"start":25729.523,"end":25729.823,"text":"為什麼會出現這麼多問題?"},{"start":25760.199,"end":25778.337,"text":"他到4月份就到齊了對不對?阿超市是到外去買嘛對不對?我去調資料,你北偉的資料到底要上去買?你跟我講只有兩家去買對不對?一個量財一個超市。阿北偉,這邊借兩你看,你看清楚。我看得非常清楚。對不對?要借兩三兩買。"},{"start":25779.868,"end":25792.265,"text":"我跟委員說明我們在那個新聞稿也提到了就是說在整個從4月以後的一些進口有一部分是量財他進來的然後由超市去賣的由超市提款對續產會來講"},{"start":25794.548,"end":25795.669,"text":"所以你現在是沒有解釋那到底9月是誰進來還是沒有?"},{"start":25822.907,"end":25824.847,"text":"三、四月以後的不管是超市或量貸都是買斷的,都是用買斷的方式。"},{"start":25852.011,"end":25879.751,"text":"所以是量財去買斷?對,我們沒有,序長會去買斷的部分,不是量財買斷的。是誰買?是序長會買啊。是跟誰買?就是只要有人...你買要結囊不是跟兩間,一間量財,一間超市啊。對,就是量財,就是量財,我們跟量財買。跟量財買,啊你為什麼之前說他4月就到期啊,他要有結囊?沒有,這個就是說,他是3月跟4月有合約,4月以後...部長,這個我們再好好查,另外一個更嚴重的,我告訴你,你看一下那個圖裡面,更嚴重的。"},{"start":25881.072,"end":25907.989,"text":"超市去買雞蛋阿在前年的10月份的時候日本那時候爆發了10月份的時候爆發了禽流感結果你看那個圖院長你順便看一下這個有沒有多嚴重日本發生禽流感的時候他扑殺了很多雞所以他的雞蛋是應該是變少然後雞蛋價格就飆漲嘛對不對結果我們出現兩個非常不合理的你看我們在前年的10月份的時候超市去買雞蛋"},{"start":25910.265,"end":25916.693,"text":"一飛沖天買這麼多,你看以前只有買214、153、172一到一跳到240、604、543而且第二個你看右邊的價格也是很奇怪價格已經飆升了結果超市去買一百多兩千二十"},{"start":25927.895,"end":25928.475,"text":"我這個必須要澄清"},{"start":25948.425,"end":25976.934,"text":"沒有,這個部分本身就是說他這邊提到的我們8月份買的時候還是在飛魚區這個是我一定會請防險局提供這個相關的一個檢疫證明他的出口的檢疫證明可以證實那第二個部分就是後續的這些超市去買的比較便宜那是他跟日本產地的關係那相對的就是說你有預約生產跟沒有預約生產用現貨的部分他本身是不一樣的一個價格那這個部分我們還是尊重"},{"start":25977.614,"end":25992.719,"text":"就是貿易商自己的私人行為我一定看起來還是很多疑點第一個我要的資料你要答應給我的要趕快這個應該是很有可能就是國會調查委員的第一個案子我們相關的資料其實檢調單位已經在查了111年的部分也在做市長檢調調查我接下來要問那個賣料的事情你請回來經濟部英帝我先問你一個生意"},{"start":26007.438,"end":26032.741,"text":"有很多團體17個團體北中南喔串聯去行政院門口陳情抗議阿說那個賣了電廠怎麼可以再研議阿因為他跟台電簽了這個約5月3日一直停機阿嘛他們要求兩個東西第一個什麼原約的什麼訂了新的這個企業或者是原廠的他們要求黑箱的合約要公開第二更重要的"},{"start":26034.827,"end":26050.122,"text":"人民、政府、台電這個一夜裡面清清楚楚,到了5月30日就要停啊,而且已經燒了25年的煤炭了。政府的責任、政府的國策就是減碳嘛,對不對?結果你這還讓他燒,他們就很生氣啊。他們有陳情書啊,你有接到嗎?"},{"start":26050.984,"end":26079.059,"text":"我知道委員所提的這個事情這重點來看就是他期間已到合約期間但是合約的發電量因為配合當地縣政府生煤減碳的這個要求降低了發電量所以他合約的發電量還沒到所以跟經濟部跟台電有這樣的協調所以一定合約你看我今天看不一樣你看到企業我看到人民對於那些人民來講他們不是只是婚禮而已我剛才跟你婚禮跟你台南到高雄"},{"start":26080.031,"end":26093.799,"text":"我們北州、彰化、南投跟台中,他們都認為賣了那個,你知道賣了那個電廠是台灣第幾大污染源嗎?所以經濟部跟他們進行再協商之後一定我先問你一下,你知道台灣最大污染源是哪裡?全台灣最大的污染源?"},{"start":26099.002,"end":26126.702,"text":"有移動污染源、有工業的污染源、有外來的污染源都有。臺中火力發電廠。是,這個大家都知道。所以盡量再用天然氣來取代它。第二個,看一下。第二個就是賣料。結果這麼大的一個污染源,不是只有雲林人,嘉義人、台南人、中華人、台中人。人數15年。他看到那個合約上面寫的清清楚楚,5月31號就是要停啊。"},{"start":26128.137,"end":26130.999,"text":"今天我們要做一個很好示範。經濟部台電有跟電廠來做協調,如何進行未來選擇一個最好的方式。"},{"start":26158.243,"end":26187.321,"text":"發言委員因為當時25年前簽這個約喔當時就是兩個條件一個是發電量一個是期間要滿足他投資的成本那現在我們跟財政公司同心談判協商修約到明年年底不再續約即使發電量沒發完也不再續了這個是無法...沒有要等你到明年那人民哪有要等你到就已經忍受了25年然後明明跟你的國策又國家政策又不一樣然後對人民的健康又有傷害"},{"start":26188.227,"end":26188.248,"text":"議定"},{"start":26190.1,"end":26218.043,"text":"你為什麼不能停?而且你一直在講喔,你電是有夠的,對不對?你電都夠了,你為什麼要讓麥寮電廠,全臺灣電污染源,積極傷害我們人民呢?在整個發電的系統,發電量當中,這個原來的電廠的發電量都算在現在的供需當中啦。你是說如果站麥寮你電就沒夠?我們會比較安全穩定的供電。你不能夠這樣,你不是一直說電有夠啦。你一直講電有夠啦,那你現在...等一下等一下,這個很重要,一定一定。"},{"start":26218.905,"end":26242.712,"text":"你一直強調電視過了,你現在剛才回答的意思就是要不要了,繼續燒煤你電才過?我們是整體的規劃,台電的整個發電系統它的評估它的量是這樣在評估整個規劃。這個叫以用廢氣發電嗎?不是不是,這樣講不好,這樣講不好。一定你們兩個不穩嘛,你一直在說你電有夠嘛。這是一個嘛,第二,減碳不要再燒煤是你的政策啊。"},{"start":26243.76,"end":26271.503,"text":"你們政府的政策阿結果你現在繼續燒阿我要兩個東西好不好第一個陳情的團體跟民眾很清楚要合約嘛對不對而且裡面有一個很嚴重的問題我要先跟你講一下你要研議那要引領縣政府要有燃煤的許可證對不對到目前為止都沒有給喔婚姻管境戶到現在還沒給你這個燃煤的許可證書"},{"start":26273.78,"end":26293.493,"text":"你為什麼現在簽一個簽一個可能合法的約?報告委員這第一個喔政府跟這台電公司在經濟部立場當時25年簽的約我們要尊重喔那當時的約並沒有明確的講說以期間為主或者以發電量為主所以我們現在的的比較比較這個改進的重點就是你先一直罩在那個罩在那個發電量我告訴你"},{"start":26299.81,"end":26323.837,"text":"我已經去查過了,包括你們的同仁都給我,台電都給我嘛,裡面沒有說要保證說要發多少的電量,這是第一次。我再講一次喔,目前我掌握的資料沒有這個事情。第一個好,更嚴重的對我剛才講,人民的健康嘛,而且人民看到的就清楚,你的合約裡面一個重點是到今年5月30日嘛,那為什麼不停下來?好沒關係,來來來,好來,我們一樣嘛齁,我們都尊重專業啦,把合約拿出來。"},{"start":26328.735,"end":26354.654,"text":"報告委員把合約拿出來我們給大家看嘛好不好?看裡面有沒有剛講的有沒有剛講的這個容量要增加這個事情好不好?報告委員第二個還要嚴重的還要嚴重的其實我剛才說的婚姻管政部如果沒有允許你你怎麼去簽一個可能沒辦法落實的合約這是個違法的合約啊其實第三方還要重要啦一定人在關門好修行你若認為麥寮電廠這個全台灣第二大的"},{"start":26356.909,"end":26357.989,"text":"你堅持河山廠是要廢的嗎?你有看到嗎?"},{"start":26384.025,"end":26409.868,"text":"你現在河山場附近的四個鄉鎮都支持要研議結果你看人家支持要嘛然後你偏偏不給嘛對不對阿賣了人家不要嘛你偏偏要給人家你是跟人們會不會是一點都是對著我還要提醒一個地方阿這個是民間的契約阿我們兩個我還是願意說我們站在你去阿我坐下有一個事要問你好好地來考慮因為那個你看一下你是要打河電"},{"start":26435.368,"end":26435.388,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":26452.245,"end":26460.672,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝詹委員,謝謝左院長。報告院會休息五分鐘,休息之後我們繼續進行質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":26598.636,"end":26598.717,"text":"公明。"},{"start":26777.865,"end":26778.366,"text":"報告院會現在繼續開會,請林委員得符質詢。"},{"start":26803.246,"end":26809.688,"text":"謝謝主席、江湖院長。是不是請卓院長,行政院卓院長。好,請卓院長備詢。委員好。卓院長你好。卓院長因為近來,"},{"start":26822.202,"end":26839.257,"text":"有一些像食安、缺藥的問題屢屢發生,讓很多這些醫療的基層他們非常的不滿。媒體也報導說,食藥署長吳秀梅即將離任,外傳由新署長改由中國醫藥大學"},{"start":26841.69,"end":26853.156,"text":"要學院的院長莊昇宏教授來接任那卓院長你對莊昇宏教授是否有信心能夠升任呢?有沒有信心?"},{"start":26854.274,"end":26882.54,"text":"跟委員報告這個部會首長的協下的主管我們通常是尊重首長他在對這個人的瞭解和認識但將來是他自己指揮跟他自己配合瞭解我是說這些食藥署長這項人事案其實很重要因為過去講實在話吳秀梅署長擔任的時候很多基層的民眾我經常就在基層跑他們對他種種的作為非常非常的不滿"},{"start":26884.093,"end":26911.218,"text":"那這次換莊昇宏教授他是中國醫學院的這個院長那當然我們希望說現在面臨的問題當然缺藥的問題很嚴重那你認為像這樣的一個人事案你像缺藥的問題要多少時間讓他來做一些處理因為這個很重要啊"},{"start":26912.381,"end":26920.712,"text":"因為我知道這個人事案這個流程已經走啦已經走完了那你認不認同就是有對他有沒有信心對莊昇宏"},{"start":26922.878,"end":26951.619,"text":"第一個尊重邱部長的選擇再來既然是一個團隊我們就要讓團隊整體往前走就彼此要能夠有默契要能夠很好的團隊觀念精神合作那你認為缺藥的問題應該在多少時間裡面就應該要把它解決掉你不要經常缺這個藥缺那個藥很多民眾他們到醫院去要這個藥也沒有要那個藥也沒有你說怎麼辦對不對這個是跟健康直接第一關係的"},{"start":26953.175,"end":26976.406,"text":"委員長你有什麼看法不管是輸液還是藥現在都有一些問題存在輸液我們現在已經從國外的進口專案進口也從國內其他小廠希望鼓勵他們生產另外就原來這個生產的大廠他能不能在短時間的回復這個都是未來衛福部食藥署要去工作的事情其實齁 卓院長你應該要交代他們"},{"start":26977.886,"end":26997.482,"text":"該給人家一點利潤還是要給問題就是你一直砍砍到人家不願意做嘛這個才是真節點那不願意做你就缺藥問題真節點是在這裡最嚴重的問題我認為你身為院長這個問題你要去要求一定要解決這個問題多少時間可以解決你告訴我"},{"start":26999.395,"end":27002.696,"text":"這個是相當專業的問題我想等到新的食藥署長上來之後我會跟部長跟他一起好好的研究現在遇到的這些問題我們真的誠實面對問題再提出一個"},{"start":27014.568,"end":27014.949,"text":"總院長那我請教你齁"},{"start":27032.216,"end":27036.441,"text":"因為今天要跟你討論一些離岸風電短購的匯率與國產化問題。2024年經濟部主導離岸風電第三階段的區塊開發以出現0元的競標價格。經濟部說離岸風電20年短購絕無"},{"start":27053.26,"end":27063.365,"text":"多付9000億。既然如此,那就請經濟部告訴本席,離岸方店的短購會比競標價格政府要多付多少錢?"},{"start":27065.058,"end":27087.89,"text":"報告委員,這個准購費率剛開始的時候,因為我們完全沒有經驗,需要請開發商來,所以那個是參考國際間,尤其英國等等他的模式。一開始我們提供一個准購費率,接下去呢就變成自由市場競標,等到競標的時候,因為我們已經有第一期的這個示範的情況的結果之後,開發商有了信心,他自然就競價。"},{"start":27088.49,"end":27099.036,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":27100.254,"end":27107.237,"text":"進一步這個離岸風電這個新聞稿寫到借短購價格打好產業的基礎,臨選機制帶動整個基礎的建設的一個建立,並引進國外技術建構國內產業發展離岸風電本土的供應鏈,並扶植我國產業進軍亞太市場。那2022年這個監察院調查報告指出大彰化"},{"start":27128.265,"end":27133.078,"text":"東南以及西南第一階段的離岸封建之水下的基礎"},{"start":27138.001,"end":27138.201,"text":"經濟部新聞稿"},{"start":27167.469,"end":27187.6,"text":"說這個國產化具有約束力並有罰則絕非柔性的要求那業者應於承諾年度如期如值達成國產化承諾的目標及封廠的建置若未如期履約則依履約保證金以及等購的匯率等嚴格違約來罰則"},{"start":27189.401,"end":27213.212,"text":"那機制的處理那本席當然支持說發展再生人員也支持離岸風電國產化但是離岸風電整個工程的進度嚴重的落後國產化也第一議期希望卓院長能夠明確的才是只要離岸風電無法達成國產化的目標就應該依比例檢討離岸風電能夠的電價"},{"start":27217.216,"end":27217.956,"text":"其實一開始他問題很多啦 為什麼"},{"start":27241.175,"end":27258.864,"text":"因為當初他有等於等過就是議價先議價七成後面的三成再來公開招標公開招標一度標多少兩塊兩毛二等過多少五塊八毛四等於是五塊八毛五幾乎啦"},{"start":27259.773,"end":27272.979,"text":"你看落差多大結果我問前經濟部的部長沈榮金他跟我說因為要國產化實際上的國產化根本就很低啊幾乎都是半成民進來就摘下去啊"},{"start":27276.911,"end":27299.324,"text":"國產化其實還有相當的成就啦因為我們的國產化的範圍非常大我們並不是要求他技術移轉而是讓我們的在地供應鏈可以加入開發商的整個供應鏈未來這些開發商到國際間去做離岸風電的時候我們的供應鏈都可以跟得去目前已經有些實際的問題是你給他一度是五塊八碼五"},{"start":27299.944,"end":27325.686,"text":"那我們公開招標那時候是標2塊2毛2,落差太大。報告委員,實務上這些當時有標到滾購費率的業者,他也去參加公開競標,所以他的成本並不是表面上看到5塊8毛5跟2塊2,他其實他之間有一些財務上的調配,總而言之是政府跟開發商跟供應商跟在地供應業大家都多贏的結果,這是我們期待的一個目標。"},{"start":27326.974,"end":27348.585,"text":"民進黨的整個能源政策是國防的心意。裝睡的人是叫不醒。自以為感覺良好,其實連美國商會也都質疑民進黨的能源政策。尤其童子賢董事長日前的談及臺灣能源政策,表示綠能有間歇性發電的缺點。"},{"start":27350.343,"end":27367.902,"text":"那因攜手核能各佔臺灣發電比例百分之三十讓不排碳發電合計到百分之六十這是臺灣能源的黃金比例可以追上先進國家的水準那童子賢直言臺灣能源政策"},{"start":27369.042,"end":27394.678,"text":"不能改變的原因無非是原來的輝和家園的口號來卡住了為了要適應那個口號就一切東西都要卡來卡去他說臺灣本來可以大舉進步就是因為把核能廢掉而力能又追不上原來設定的目標他希望談論人員政策時政治味道越淡越好"},{"start":27396.619,"end":27404.266,"text":"中信看待產業需求和民生需求,本席支持綠能發展。臺電火力全開,臺灣2050淨零排蛋恐怕"},{"start":27410.441,"end":27433.035,"text":"我看是天荒夜談本席建議左內閣、賴政府盡速召開能源國是會議把所有真實數據全部都攤開來讓全民知道該滾動式調整能源結構就運用核能幫助達成2050年淨零排斷的目標主委長你有什麼看法"},{"start":27433.954,"end":27459.301,"text":"再跟委員報告非核家園我早上說過了他是在環境基本法23條裡面訂的政府應該訂定計畫這個不可以改嗎?現實核能也是立法的這個法現在是存在的而且是委員在想在想那個本來就可以改啊2002年就訂但現在沒有改現在是沒有修沒有改所以這是一個現行的法律再來現在要經過社會有共識核能"},{"start":27460.502,"end":27487.963,"text":"發電達到百分之三十百分之三十應該是現在的社會共識還要很大的去努力能不能達到我都覺得不一定但是這是一個未來可以討論的也許新的核能技術有一天改變跟我們現在不知道的技術那是未來的事情所以我常說一句話未來的核能解決不了今天的問題其實你要達到2050年精靈排碳是天荒夜譚照你們現在的整個這個就是"},{"start":27489.915,"end":27495.225,"text":"整個店家整個店的那個操作方式真的關於學校這個"},{"start":27498.191,"end":27523.067,"text":"電價的補貼臺電表示要動漲政策不變但電費差額會改由各部會編列相關的預算不再由臺電來吸收臺大下長表示一旦漲電費對學校是嚴重的負擔影響經費教學研究的品質資深的服務那教育經費法定下限明定前三年度"},{"start":27524.348,"end":27553.017,"text":"決算稅入淨額平均值23%本席認為窮不能窮教育苦不能苦孩子本席已提出教育經費編列與管理法修正草案明定電費補助款不要計入教育經費的預算更讓更多教育經費用於學生的身上希望卓院長不要讓上場的電價吃掉學生的教育預算你有什麼看法"},{"start":27554.835,"end":27555.295,"text":"報告委員臺電長年以來"},{"start":27580.186,"end":27585.347,"text":"民進黨政府高估再生能源發展的速度又低估了AI用電需求的成長放棄便宜的核電不用用選擇一度三到四元更貴更髒的火力化電"},{"start":27608.934,"end":27624.083,"text":"那本席現在說的數據是臺電提供2023年燃氣發電的購電成本每度3.62元和能每度1.3元如果2023年臺電整個和能發電的電量跟2015年一樣351億度的話則可以減少使用天然氣發電少虧損400億這400億等同於113年"},{"start":27638.772,"end":27653.768,"text":"文化部300億的預算再加上未來要成立的百億癌症新藥的基金本席不反對發展再生人員2025年再生人員20%的目標已確定是跳票的"},{"start":27655.51,"end":27659.334,"text":"經濟部下修的占比目標是15.5%本來要2025年到20%但是現在下修到15.5%國際認可何能為綠電"},{"start":27669.795,"end":27683.891,"text":"整個國際能源總署強調世界需要核電來減少碳排放每日韓都大舉發展核電那難道民進黨的能源政策不需要做通販的檢討嗎?"},{"start":27685.293,"end":27686.574,"text":"講實在話啦,大家都清清楚楚的啦,為什麼現在經常很多地方都在跳電?"},{"start":27712.327,"end":27728.079,"text":"那是因為電網韌性不好,我要求能夠縮短時間改變電網的韌性,改善電網的韌性。其實我認為政院缺電是有直接關係的啦。這個下次其他再...謝謝,謝謝林委員,謝謝總院長。下一位我們請黃國昌委員質詢。"},{"start":27750.601,"end":27756.167,"text":"謝謝主席副院長。是不是麻煩有請行政院院長卓院長。來請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":27767.043,"end":27780.873,"text":"總統賴清德在競選總統的時候提出他的能源政策那作為總統所提名的行政院院長我相信您最重要的任務就是要實踐賴總統他跟全體國民所提出來的政見"},{"start":27781.909,"end":27798.595,"text":"其中一個非常重要的一環也是今天大家很關心的事情就是能源政策的問題我今天要請教院長的是這個路徑到底要怎麼樣實踐這兩天我們的總統府環境變遷的委員會副召集人童子賢童董事長"},{"start":27799.485,"end":27823.575,"text":"他對於我們在有關於低碳發電的這件事情上面其實提出了蠻強烈的批評我知道童董事長是一個非常有社會企業社會責任感的企業家我個人也非常的尊敬他童董事長說馬政府卸任的時候低碳排電19.4%蔡總統卸任的時候低碳發電只有16.9%童董事長的數據正不正確"},{"start":27826.781,"end":27826.801,"text":"總統市長"},{"start":27845.97,"end":27873.425,"text":"報告委員、經濟部次長陳正希次長嘛,次長說你不知道正不正確你還要再回去再確認,是嗎?是好來,我跟次長報告他的數據是正確的因為他大概就是把火力發電藍煤跟燃氣加在一起啦用百分之百去減掉我們火力發電的數字就他所謂低碳發電的比例我把它全部都列出來了這個是從經濟部能源署的網站下面下來的數字這個"},{"start":27875.146,"end":27904.35,"text":"是過去蔡政府所留下來的問題我沒有要苛責賴清德總統但我們在討論問題的時候知道我們今天從哪裡出發非常非常的重要我首先要請教卓院長的是你認為在賴總統第一任的任期也就是到2028年的時候這一個非低碳排電的比例也就是所謂火力發電的占比會降到多少"},{"start":27905.532,"end":27932.651,"text":"你們現在接手的時候,到今年1月到4月是81.57%嘛,你們現在目標的規劃是要降到多少?報告委員,剛剛前面那個數字,因為我們現在的火力發電是逐漸要降低的,燃氣會增加的,所以理論上是不應該出現,所以我到現在沒有看過這樣的數字,我們可以重新去回頭去查沒有關係啊,就請你跟我講說,你們到2028卸任的時候,你的目標值要降到多少?"},{"start":27933.471,"end":27955.726,"text":"我們現在有幾個火力發電廠要停下來是沒有錯所以你的目標值要降到多少一個禮拜之內書面回覆我可以嗎因為我們現在要討論的事情我沒有要在比較抽象的政策面上跟你討論因為抽象的政策面上賴總統提出他的政見他也當選了嘛就要實踐他的政見嘛"},{"start":27956.747,"end":27980.237,"text":"那我們現在關心的是立法院監督我們要知道路徑怎麼達成嘛。否則的話只是在開空投支票嘛。第二個部分你真的看二氧化碳的碳排放量其實你也可以看得出來從剛剛的比例到二氧化碳的碳排放量童子賢董事長他的批評其實沒有說錯整個趨勢整個數字全部都是一致的"},{"start":27981.021,"end":28005.004,"text":"我非常支持發展再生能源所以我對於再生能源我們現在發展的狀況非常的關心蔡英文總統說2025再生能源要達到20%去年的經濟部也承認了這是一個沒有辦法達到的政見確定跳票了賴信德總統也很坦率的承認了這件事情做不到啦"},{"start":28006.052,"end":28033.32,"text":"做不到他接棒下去做要2026年才可以實踐我相信我對於蔡英文總統的承諾以及賴清德總統的政見這些數字整理都不會錯這個是白紙黑字啊的東西好但我現在在關心的事情是什麼政治人物選舉的時候政見開支票我們就要努力的去達成這才是民主政治這才是責任政治"},{"start":28034.181,"end":28050.793,"text":"我們講要達成不是一句我努力就好人民要看到的是你努力的方法以及你努力的路徑我這樣說沒有錯吧院長好我們來看一下努力的路徑到目前為止我們2024年再生能源的發電量佔10.7%這個一樣是經濟部能源署統計的資料我現在下面的困惑是2026年要到20%"},{"start":28062.432,"end":28065.473,"text":"我把再生能源的種類全部都很詳細的把它畫出來了我具體的請教"},{"start":28085.507,"end":28085.687,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":28098.669,"end":28123.169,"text":"這個會delay的原因主要是因為對不起我沒有問你delay的原因啊我也沒有怪你們嘛跳票的原因跳票的是蔡英文我沒有怪在賴清德頭上啦現在我在問的是賴清德說他2026要達標嘛我們就具體的講現在只有10.7還差9.3嘛那你的太陽光電在你20%的占比當中要占多少"},{"start":28124.38,"end":28149.187,"text":"我們未來會在風電的並聯上面呢對不起我請教你的是太陽光電你打算佔比要多少太陽光電我們大概會到20個Gigawatt那麼沒有沒有20個Gigawatt是20個Gigawatt喔現在我說在你2026再生能源佔比要百分之二十沒有錯吧好在你是再生能源二十裡面太陽光電要佔幾%這是我的問題"},{"start":28151.054,"end":28161.262,"text":"報告委員,再生能源的種類是越來越多的發展。是!所以我很具體的來問,說太陽光電要佔幾%。請說明太陽光電要佔幾%。是整個再生能源的種類會很多。但我不喜歡混起來講嘛。沒有關係,你每一類要到幾%。我希望跟國人說清楚講明白。我知道再生能源很多。"},{"start":28175.954,"end":28194.288,"text":"所以我把所有的數字都列出來了這個是經濟部能源署的網站公告的嘛我今天的問題很簡單賴慶德總統開了政見我們大家都願意相信他他要努力的去達成政見達成要有路徑剛剛院長你也表示同意嘛現在再生能源20%2026年要到20%"},{"start":28198.43,"end":28206.204,"text":"其中太陽光電你們目前的施政計畫是佔幾%?這個問題很具體一點都不複雜也不困難太陽光電要佔幾%?"},{"start":28208.103,"end":28221.646,"text":"跟委員報告一下,我們現在談的是2026年,現在是2024年,還有兩年的時間。所以我們國發會也在努力幫經濟部再找新的能源。跟你報告一下,現在國內已經有廠商開始安裝瓦斯轉藍綠氫的一個綠能。這個藍綠氫的綠能已經實際運作。我們打算在2026年產生大約是1.5GW。"},{"start":28235.917,"end":28236.963,"text":"對,為什麼因為他的建制在一年內"},{"start":28242.93,"end":28260.745,"text":"我這樣說好了啦施政不能只喊口號施政要有路徑我希望達到20%現在是10.7%我們還有9.3%要make up9.3%要Make up我太陽光電打算佔幾%風電打算佔幾%地熱要佔幾%這樣子的一個施政路徑的藍圖難道不應該讓社會知道嗎"},{"start":28267.21,"end":28267.67,"text":"需要多久?需要多久?"},{"start":28293.154,"end":28317.133,"text":"我們一個月給你好一個月齁因為這個要具體的問我們才能實事求是就事論事的討論問題嘛要不然全部都在打高空開支票我相信我也希望達到20%但我為什麼要具體的問太陽光電佔幾%風電佔幾%剛剛您所講的新的技術要佔幾%因為我們日後都要檢驗的嘛好我為什麼關心太陽光電要佔幾%這是一個很關鍵的問題為什麼我這樣說來看一下"},{"start":28323.098,"end":28352.065,"text":"我目前太陽能光電發電的裝置容量是12.96GW最新的數據到4月這應該不會錯全部都是經濟部的數據好在這樣的情況之下目前太陽光電我們發電量的佔比是4.7%到2026年我剛剛為什麼要問這個問題我需要知道你們打算佔的比例是多少我才能夠去估計說你要再多多少GW才能夠達到這個percentage"},{"start":28352.845,"end":28379.401,"text":"這是一個非常率直而且非常重要的問題。為什麼非常重要的問題?我們在討論目標的時候,不是喊口號就會到,要實踐嘛。所以我需要知道說,那你太陽光的占比要多少?你要有多少的發電裝置容量才可以make up你希望達到的目標?我相信我在這邊問的、說的都是合情合理,也是人民所關心的。"},{"start":28379.901,"end":28394.802,"text":"但是這件事情在政府的政策上為什麼重要?因為我們需要知道我們要達到那個目標還需要投入多少土地?一公頃可以發多少MW?"},{"start":28395.953,"end":28423.693,"text":"你知道嗎?所以我們跟委員報告過了,我們如果其他的能源可以發展起來,這個會改變,所以我們去盤點能源報告嘛。我的意思是說,你不能只有目標,你要有路徑。為什麼這件事情重要,我直接秀下面,因為我要知道的是什麼?我要知道的是2026年的時候,到2026年為止,我們盤點現在的狀況,到2026年為止,我要達到這個太陽光電的發電量,我需要知道一件事情,還需要多少土地?"},{"start":28424.935,"end":28440.252,"text":"這個對施政重不重要當然重要為什麼重要我跟院長報告能源用地白皮書光電篇去年經濟部說年底的時候要公布到現在還沒有公布這個能源用地的白皮書請問什麼時候可以公布"},{"start":28442.666,"end":28469.494,"text":"這個是你們網頁上面寫的喔嚴謹制定綠能發展區將能源用地白皮書規劃執引這個白皮書我到今天不斷的搜尋還沒有公布請問什麼時候公布這會牽涉到你的目標到底有沒有realistic嘛你的土地規劃到底是什麼嘛還需要多少公頃嘛打算要在哪裡嘛這不是行政院每天應該要做的事情嗎"},{"start":28470.322,"end":28480.64,"text":"我們今年底以前會公布今年底才會公布喔還需要這麼久整整delay了一年啊沒關係啊我拭目以待啊因為你們土地一定要盤點出來嘛"},{"start":28482.95,"end":28510.884,"text":"要不然大家怎麼知道怎麼樣支持怎麼配合我們政府的施政計畫達到這個目標嗎?要不然一天到晚在喊20%、20%、20%然後等到2028年的時候才說對不起沒有做到基於什麼樣子的原因?我們現在就要知道你的施政藍圖是什麼?你的施政路徑是什麼?你的施政計畫是什麼?需要多少KW?需要多少土地?政府盤點土地的結果是如何?我相信"},{"start":28511.844,"end":28531.618,"text":"這都是非常重要而且非常理性的公共政策討論。完全沒有任何政治口水在裡面。我希望剛剛院長所承諾的一個月的時間告訴全體國人你的路徑是什麼?今年年底以前把這個能源用地排比書公布出來可以承諾嗎?"},{"start":28534.895,"end":28560.943,"text":"下一個重要的問題我支持發展綠能但我痛恨政治權貴攀岩覆勢違法濫權胡搞瞎搞麗陽集團就是一個最典型的例子透過偽造變造的同意書結果什麼當初農委會跟他講你根本不符合淡書不可以用小二甲破碎的農地"},{"start":28562.52,"end":28589.787,"text":"南院局也跟他講你根本就不可以納入110年的計畫你是109年搞的事情啊結果我們的中央到地方通風報信量身打造幫這個綠色的權貴搞解套方案然後呢檢察官很火大起訴了不法獲利上百億稻田日期139萬不實文件比例達到96.15"},{"start":28593.356,"end":28608.288,"text":"後過遍來不實的資料、偽造、變造的文件取得的電業籌設許可,這絕對是一個違法的行政處分。在舊的政府要下台以前,我問得非常的清楚,"},{"start":28609.467,"end":28626.618,"text":"經濟部他跟我說他們絕對會做行政調查該撤銷就要撤銷來請問目前調查的進度違法取得的電業籌設許可騙來的違法的現在圖利被起訴的違法的電業籌設許可要不要撤銷"},{"start":28628.629,"end":28646.598,"text":"我們目前已經全面停止立揚申請案的行政作業那是另外一回事喔前面用偽造變造的文書騙到了電業從事的許可是不是違法的那依照行政程序法的規定我們大概會依法來辦理依法來辦理是依法要撤銷嗎還需要多久依照判決來決定"},{"start":28647.827,"end":28669.976,"text":"依照判決不對喔現在的判決是刑事司法有沒有刑事司法有貪污自罪條例的構成要件行政程序法你剛剛自己說的行政程序法是依照行政程序法這沒有判決的問題阿怎麼說要撤銷我們要依照法院認定的事實來辦理什麼叫做法院認定的事實阿你們行政調查報告還要做多久"},{"start":28750.06,"end":28766.036,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝王委員。謝謝卓院長。報告院會本日排定質詢的委員均與質詢完畢。謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。七月二日星期二上午九時九點繼續開會進行經濟組織質詢。現在休息。"}]}},{"id":"154399","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154399","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68a1c744b105748c6076cd03fb23edab3c9084592ae7b5b568b0650c22a74c080455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"14:46:57 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15:03:00","影片長度":"00:16:03","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T14:46:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T15:03:00+08:00","duration":963,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":59,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（14時47分）有請卓院長還有農業部陳部長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢，還有農業部長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：郭委員好。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主席，兩位好。院長，今天算是國會職權修法之後，您第一次站在這個地方，您有說要以身試法，從早上試到現在，有沒有碰到一些上對下或者是有碰到一些怎麼樣，我就是比你大這樣子的狀況？你自己心裡目前感受如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：這四個字對我來講應該是中性的，絕對沒有任何不禮貌的感覺，但是早上質詢到現在，我覺得我們都能夠非常理性的來討論，因為我總希望用國會改革這樣的理由制定一個新的法案，是要雙方同時進步的。而且大家在裡面用很理性的對話，沒有那種高音調的、沒有那種手指對方的，這個才是真正國會論證、雙方彼此應該有的尊重，我希望這個風氣還有這種樣子能夠持續的進行下去。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，我們也樂見，我想不管是質詢或者是備詢，彼此尊重才是最重要的，不管過去或者是現在或者是將來，我都不會用上對下這樣子的質詢方式對待我們的部會首長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝院長。接下來我想要請教農業部，今天我所有主題其實都跟動保相關，這也是我個人非常關心的一些議題，我想私人狗場在臺灣的問題其實非常非常的多，就我所知，2022年農業部也曾經有列冊說要輔導臺灣大概將近178家的私人狗場，包含他們自己的土地能夠導向合法的狀況，但是後來因為土地編定的類別變更，這個成本比較高，當然也跟曠日廢時有一點關係，所以到後來是無疾而終啦！","昨天有一個新聞，我相信其實大家都知道了，就是內湖有一位寵物業者，他因為沒有跟鄰居達成共識，當然這可能也是跟地方──就是臺北市土地使用分區管制自治條例有關，所以也引發了他自殺這樣子一個令人遺憾的事情。","不過在這裡我還是要再次重申，因為其實寵物是家人，毛小孩的福利、保障動物的福利，這樣子的觀念其實不是只有這幾年，我相信將來也是。不管地方自治是怎麼樣執行，針對中央在對於所謂人和動物的實際關係以及他們的法律地位，我想這是大家你我都責無旁貸的一件事情。","回到3月1號我在總質詢的時候，當時您也是代理部長……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：我相信您應該有聽到我在針對動保警察部分的一些需求，我想動保警察的議題我們已經討論了非常非常久，當時農業部也跟內政部承諾你們要合作設立所謂的動保警察，後續我的辦公室也都持續有在follow、追蹤，甚至有請一些部會人員也特別針對這些細節來做一些討論。當時我們幾經討論之後，賦予動檢員司法警察權，這個是我們大家都覺得可行的，而且可能是有共識的，所以我們也儘量希望能夠往這個部分來前進。當然也要搭配所謂的一些配套措施，包含人員要怎麼招聘、要怎麼專業訓練，以及他們的待遇跟加給部分要怎麼樣擬定才能夠留得住人，這也是很重要的一件事情。","但是就在今天的總質詢之前，我們再次跟動保司聯繫，在確定這件事情的時候，卻聽到了不一樣的答案。部長，您今天在這裡，我想直接問您會比較快一點，因為他們說賦予動保警察權可能對現有的一些制度會有一些些的重大影響，這影響到底是什麼？不可行的原因又是什麼？然後又說一個月後會有一個報告，所以現在無法透露。到底有什麼是不能說的秘密？在這裡我們不要把它當秘密，因為我想這是全民的期待，動保警察在國外行之有年，他們也做得非常好，不管是英國也好、美國也好、荷蘭也好，我想有這麼好的範本都已經在前面示範了，沒有理由臺灣做不到。這個部分我想要知道一下，到底什麼叫做秘密？這個秘密可不可以在這邊公開呢？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明一下，謝謝委員長期對於動保，特別是動物福利、動物保護的關注。絕對沒有什麼秘密，我們在考慮動保的司法警察權時，大概用兩個階段，我們用非常務實的方式，先讓動保檢查人員……"],["郭委員昱晴：動檢員。"],["陳部長駿季：賦予他一個授權，能夠針對一些私領域，過去動保人員都不能進到私領域去調查，我們先處理這個區塊，讓動保檢查人員能夠進到私領域。第二個階段，因為動保警察本身，我們那時候考慮到現在動保人員的流動率非常高……"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["陳部長駿季：相對的，你要去賦予警察的司法職權時，他必須有相關的受訓，以及動保技能也要受訓，所以我們是希望在有比較正式編制的時候，才有可能把他結合在一起，不然直接讓動保人員去做司法警察工作，在他流動率很高的時候，就會造成一些缺口。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以我剛剛有說嘛！包含人員的訓練，這也是很重要啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：只是我們每一次在討論到這個話題的時候，像這樣子的一個說法就進來了……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是每一次，大概幾個月又聽到類似這樣子的一個說法，到底我們什麼時候才能夠真正實施？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我的作法就是分兩階段，先賦予動保檢查人員職權，能夠進到私領域去查，這個部分先走。第二個部分，其實我們也在跟人事總處再去處理，因為不管是地方政府也好，我們希望爭取的是一個正式的人員資格，這樣的話，以後的受訓才有其意義。如果用臨時人員或是用計畫人員去受訓的時候，他的流動率太高，而人事總處這邊，我希望能夠在有比較明確的人員時，我們就會來……因為內部的這些訓練規劃，其實我們已經有一些規劃了。"],["郭委員昱晴：有一些規劃，大概什麼時候可以有一個比較進程的計畫？因為剛剛有提到，他說一個月後會有一個明確的報告，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們的報告包括，我們的動保檢查人員在執行這些司法警察相關權力的時候，他必須要有的職能，這些職能本身的基準，跟他後面的一個訓練計畫，我們會先做一個完整的擬定，然後人員的部分我們會積極地跟人事總處這邊瞭解。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以動保司回應我的就是，一個月之後會有一個比較完整的計畫、初步的計畫。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我會跟他們再討論，把一個……"],["郭委員昱晴：再確定？"],["陳部長駿季：很明確地把這些我們做的進度跟委員報告。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，接下來我要問關於認養的黑名單跟灰名單之類的問題，這個其實也是一個問題，我想現在只要有身分證字號，或者是出生年月日，其實我們都可以在寵登的系統上面看得出來這個人有沒有違反動保法、有沒有一些紀錄，還有包含他曾經養過多少隻的貓狗等等，這是很清楚的一塊。如果我沒記錯的話，其實去年的時候，農業部跟衛福部也已經特別地完成了違反家暴的一個防治法。"],["陳部長駿季：對，介接……"],["郭委員昱晴：還有違反動保法的一些名單上面的交流，或者是這個資料上面的串聯，一般民眾可以藉由寵登系統去查到要領養我貓狗的人有沒有什麼樣的不良紀錄，但是針對違反家暴法紀錄的這個部分，一般民眾其實在一般的系統上面是看不到的，這個說法是說因為隱私權，我想同樣地，違反動保法的紀錄我們看得到，但違反家暴法的紀錄我們卻看不到，這個標準是怎麼訂出來的？"],["陳部長駿季：我想可能委員有點誤會，就是我們跟動保，跟衛福部的家暴系統做連結，這個連結是因為有家暴跟動物虐待的部分，本身之間有它的關聯性，變成一個風險區，現在有提供送養單位去查，是公家單位可以查，但是因為……"],["郭委員昱晴：一般民眾是沒辦法查的。"],["陳部長駿季：對，公家的送養單位可以查，但是民間是不可以查得到的，因為它牽扯到特別是在家暴的部分，如果他犯有一些刑事的這些狀況的時候，那變成是一個滿嚴重的隱私揭露，在這個部分，其實是為了保障他的隱私，而且目前也沒有規定說我曾經有家暴，我就不能認養，這之間的關聯性，我們只是把它列為高風險區，所以我現在也在跟同仁討論，後續怎麼樣用一個示警的方式，而不是用揭露這個人本身過去的紀錄，我覺得用高風險的概念提出一個示警，這樣的話，在不揭露的情況之下……"],["郭委員昱晴：這個也是我們比較擔心的，因為我們知道有很多所謂情商有一些狀況的，包含我們曾經講過的茶茶案，其實就是恐怖情人所為嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以其實會有這樣子傾向的人，他極有可能就是剛剛您說的，是高風險的族群，如果我的寵物或者是我的貓狗，是被高風險的人認養的話，的確也有可能產生這樣子的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以這部分，你們可能要儘量找出一個折衷的辦法，也讓一般的民眾能夠知道。"],["陳部長駿季：我想是不是可以在不揭露個人資訊、他的詳細資訊的前提之下，用風險等級方式，讓這個送養單位去做查核？這樣的話，我想一方面保護了個人的隱私，另一方面也確保我們的寵物給領養人的時候是受到照顧的情況。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，接下來，我上一次其實在總質詢有特別提到，我們入境檢疫所放寬的一個方式，就是寵物的主人想要多次地去探望自己從國外帶回來的貓狗狀況，如果牠是在檢疫所當中，但是目前為止……","我那時候其實有特別講過，我們家的貓貓狗狗如果在我們要出國的時候也是送旅館，旅館其實也有24小時，我隨時只要跟它連線之後，就可以看得到我自己的貓狗在寵物旅館的狀況，沒道理我們自己本身的檢疫所是做不到的，這個部分現在大概做到什麼樣的地步？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我非常認同委員的說法，現在針對隔離檢疫的場所，我也特別在關心，我們已經提供一些經費給它做一些基本的維修，讓牠在這7天的隔離期間會有一個比較好的舒適環境。第二個部分……"],["郭委員昱晴：探視的次數可以增加嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：那個即時的監測，我會要求他們，因為現在每一個籠都有監視器。"],["郭委員昱晴：對。"],["陳部長駿季：然後我會給他一個特定的帳號密碼，在牠隔離期間，隨時可以看，而不是說你現在打電話來，我再提供，我覺得這是被動的服務，我希望能夠做一個主動的服務，像貓狗旅館這種，我想我們會儘快去實施。","第三個就是探視的部分，現在北部觀音的部分是可以預約的；南部則是在中興大學跟屏科大本身的獸醫院，因為它是教學醫院，本身是沒有辦法接受預約的，但這個部分我們會再跟他們協調，的確，自己的寵物到了一個陌生的環境之下，可能會有一些恐慌，所以多讓飼主去探視，我覺得這是必要的……"],["郭委員昱晴：比較有人性啦！"],["陳部長駿季：所以我會朝這個方向努力，然後飼主看不到的時候，可以用監視器來看，大概會用這樣一個方式來處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我們知道小港機場的入境隔離檢驗所，必須要寵物的主人到當地，也就是到檢疫所裡面，但還是要透過鏡頭才能看得到，並沒有辦法直接跟自己的寵物接觸，這個部分我是覺得稍微比較冰冷一點，所以希望可以稍微再改一下。"],["陳部長駿季：對！我瞭解這整個的過程，我覺得有些東西是有需要再精進的地方，我一定會朝這個方向來做。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝部長。","接下來還有多元寵物分類分級的管理制度，因為現在不管是在夜市也好，夾娃娃店也好，其實我們都會看得到類似多元、不同的寵物，已經不再只是貓狗而已。2022年農業部寵物管理科當時也設定了這樣一個目標，就是有多元寵物分級分類的管理機制，當然也有所謂的白名單、黑名單，白名單就是一般像貓、狗，這個其實就是屬於所謂的寵物白名單，但是針對所謂白名單的部分，當然也有一個重點是就動物福利為主旨來做指引，就是教導民眾要怎麼樣來重視動物的福利。","另外就是在黑名單的部分，其實還有落日條款，還有退場的機制，這個也一定要成立，但是從2022年到現在，將近兩年的時間過去了，寵物名單的分級分類管理制度，現在到底進行到哪裡了？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，去年8月1號我們農業部成立了動保司，而動保司目前正在積極做這樣一個工作，特別是在犬隻的部分，因為飼主的責任是非常重要的，所以我們已經訂定了有關於飼主本身的飼養責任的指引跟檢索，一方面可以提供給飼主瞭解，一方面也可以給動保檢查人員瞭解。","第二個部分，就是我們現在正在做動保法的修法，動保法的修法裡面會把整個分類分級來做處理，同時寵物食品的部分，也會一併納入專章來處理，之前院長也承諾我們在今年年底之前一定會送到立法院來審查。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我想稽查是一個重點，如果稽查沒有到位，其實很多都是空談。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["郭委員昱晴：在這邊也謝謝部長、謝謝院長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員，謝謝卓院長還有部長。下一位請陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴士葆","蘇清泉","顏寬恒","馬文君","謝衣鳯","丁學忠","郭昱晴","陳素月","黃秀芳","蔡其昌","張啓楷","林德福","黃國昌"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002","1136401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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碳濕的次數可以增加嗎?對,然後…"},{"start":755.259,"end":781.865,"text":"那個監測的即時的監測我會要求他們就是說因為現在每一個龍都有監視器然後我給他一個特定的帳號密碼他就在他隔離期間他隨時可以看而不是說現在目前你打電話來我在提供我覺得是被動的服務我希望說做一個主動的服務好像貓狗旅館這個我想我們盡快會去實施然後第三個部分是探視的部分那探視的部分大概現在北部的在觀影的部分是可以有預約的"},{"start":782.825,"end":807.629,"text":"那南部是中興大學跟平科大本身的授意願,他是因為他教學意願,他本身是沒有辦法接受預約的部分。但這個部分我想我們會再跟他協調,因為我想自己的寵物到了一個陌生的環境之下,可能會有一些恐慌。多讓事主去探視,我覺得這是必要的啦。所以我會朝這個方向去努力,然後看不到的時候用監視器來看,大概用這樣的一個方式來處理。"},{"start":808.049,"end":833.926,"text":"因為我們知道其實小港機場的入境的這個隔離檢驗所他們是必須要寵物的主人到當地就是到檢驗所裡面我還是要透過鏡頭才能看得到我是沒有辦法直接跟自己的寵物接觸的這個部分我覺得是有一點稍微比較冰冷一點這個部分可以稍微再改我了解整個的過程我覺得有些東西是太有需要可以再精進的一個地方我一定會去朝這個方向來做"},{"start":835.607,"end":849.723,"text":"接下來當然還有這個多元寵物分類分級的管理的制度了,因為現在其實不管在夜市也好,夾娃娃店也好,其實我們都會看得到類似就是多元不同的寵物已經不再只是貓狗而已了。"},{"start":850.303,"end":850.323,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":868.677,"end":883.695,"text":"﹗"},{"start":883.695,"end":906.032,"text":"﹗"},{"start":906.292,"end":934.43,"text":"我跟委員說明就是去年8月1號我們農業部成立了一個動保師那其實動保師現在目前正在積極去做這樣子的一個工作特別是我們在犬隻的因為事主的責任是一個非常重要的所以我們已經訂定有關於事主本身的一個飼養責任的一個指引跟檢索這樣一方面有可以給事主去了解一方面也可以給動保檢查人員去了解然後第二個部分就是我們現在正在做動保法的修法"},{"start":934.87,"end":935.31,"text":"好謝謝國務委員謝謝卓院長"}]}},{"id":"154398","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154398","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68af197ec06e49770826cd03fb23edab3c9084592ae7b5b568b0fa7b4ad55c841625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"15:03:03 - 15:19:10","影片長度":"00:16:07","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T15:03:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T15:19:10+08:00","duration":967,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":124,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（15時3分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請卓院長還有農業部陳部長。"],["主席：卓院長還有陳部長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員素月：院長午安，還有部長午安。我們知道雞蛋是民生的必需品，不管是家庭的需求，或者是餐飲業、糕餅業等等，都有很大的需求。我們看到缺蛋的時候，因為買不到蛋，而且蛋價上揚，就會造成消費者有怨言；產量過剩的時候，產地價格崩盤，也會造成蛋農叫苦連天。","我們看到最近6月25號，也就是這個禮拜，蛋商公會決議，產地價格即日起每臺斤降2塊，每臺斤從27.5塊降到25.5塊；批發價在昨天、週四會跟進，從每臺斤37元降到每臺斤35元，這個也是最近連續6次的調降，算起來蛋價也下降了14塊，可以說創了近三年來的新低，以致最近蛋農真的叫苦連天！缺蛋時政府為了彌補產量缺口，會進口雞蛋供應市場需求。但現在每天雞蛋產量過剩近32萬顆，針對產量過剩的問題，政府有沒有什麼對策來幫忙處理，讓價格不要崩盤？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明一下，整個蛋雞產業有其產業鏈，從種雞、雛雞、蛋中雞到蛋雞，整個產業鏈走一遭至少要七個月左右。相對的，目前整個蛋的需求量大概比過往平均值多32萬顆，但比較末端的消費力道還沒有非常強大，所以在過程中會有供大於求的部分。其實在整個產業鏈裡，蛋農會自主調節，當價格比較低的時候會淘汰老母雞，所以我們希望能趁這個機會讓蛋農加速淘汰，而不是去做補償。我們希望蛋農平均每個月能淘汰120萬隻，而且是加速淘汰；就加速淘汰部分，我們的目標大概是180萬隻，這樣相對的就能有效地讓生產蛋效率不佳的老母雞淘汰，引進一些比較優質健康的雞，讓產蛋效率比較高。不過更重要的是在整個產銷供需裡，有一部分是由市場機制決定，但農業部也不會放任完全採行市場機制。所以在需求部分，我們會透過超市、賣場帶頭降低末端售價，當末端售價適度調降時，就會刺激相關消費者。現在很多消費者都在觀望，為什麼產地價格降了十幾塊，降這麼多了，但消費端的蛋價還是維持在高檔？所以這部分我們會積極去溝通，讓產銷的狀況能更加平穩。"],["陳委員素月：部長剛剛提到市場機制，我們當然知道有市場機制，可是我們現在要問的是：缺蛋時，會進口蛋來彌補供應量；現在過剩了，對於過剩的部分要怎麼處理？有沒有辦法幫忙促銷雞蛋，這樣才能提高需求量。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員素月：尤其蛋價在持續下跌時，中央畜產會竟還釋出1,000萬顆的進口蛋，這部分是不是可以請部長說明一下？對此，雞農很不滿，蛋農也很不滿！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，畜產會所釋出的最主要是以蛋粉或液蛋為主，有一部分是茶葉蛋，但這部分比較少。特別是液蛋部分，主要是加工烹調用。我昨天也特別跟農業部畜牧司討論，在這段時間還是以不釋出為主，讓產地的價格本身能夠比較持平。第二個部分，剛才委員說希望在蛋多的時候能夠採類似倉儲的方式……"],["陳委員素月：銷路啊！倉儲還是需求的銷路……"],["陳部長駿季：我們評估的結果是，如果在這個時間點進場去收購，蛋農就不會做調節，反正生了蛋政府就會來收，會造成產業的老母雞淘汰更加不順利。所以我們分兩個階段處理，當老母雞淘汰到一定水準以後，就可以開始導入部分的滾動倉儲概念。"],["陳委員素月：剛剛你講到蛋雞生產有一定的期程，也是一個節奏，也提到淘汰老母雞，但我們也擔心從種雞到母雞生蛋的生產過程如果出現問題時，是不是又會遇到缺蛋危機？我們回顧這十年，從2015年到現在，蛋的問題真的就是缺蛋、然後產量過剩；然後缺蛋、產量過剩這樣一個循環，造成有心人士趁機作亂，造謠、抹黑、中傷，也造成社會的不安，所以我們現在在這邊要提醒農業部、政府應該要好好檢討整個生產的過程，從種雞到飼養到生蛋的過程有什麼問題是我們要去克服的，不要讓缺蛋或者產量過剩的問題這樣一直在循環。農業部應該有去瞭解為什麼缺蛋，從過去這幾年看來，原因不外乎是禽流感、病毒問題，也曾經有環境污染問題、戴奧辛問題，還有種雞來不及供應的問題，這些問題是不是要好好掌握並思考怎麼去解決？部長，你說明一下。"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員的建議跟提醒，我們也深刻地去檢討雞蛋的產銷本身，我個人覺得在112年的時候因為禽流感在全世界大規模的發生，造成就算你再生產的時候也不夠，其中還有另外一個非常重要的就是整個產地從種雞、雛雞、蛋中雞到蛋雞本身，資訊的定期更新速度太慢，所以我在這邊已經要求我們所有畜牧司的同仁，針對整個產業鏈的資訊掌握要更及時，因為唯有從整個產業鏈裡面各個產業別本身的這些隻數能夠去瞭解，包括換羽的部分，所以我們現在已經啟動了這樣一個新的調查方式，然後看用什麼樣的方式讓這個資訊更健全。當你把這個資訊更掌握的時候，再做後續預警的部分，就能更有效率啦，所以這個部分，我想我們會針對我們看到的這些必須檢討的部分來努力持續的精進。"],["陳委員素月：好，也就是說，整個生產資訊真的很重要，要去掌握，這樣才能夠掌握到生產的供需量。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員素月：另外，目前蛋農遇到的問題就是蛋價已經不敷成本了，很多蛋農都覺得他們撐不下去了，如果還要等你所說的淘汰老母雞，這真的對他們的幫助不大，請問你們還有沒有什麼比較實質上的幫助？"],["陳部長駿季：我們還有一個，就是現在蛋雞飼料的部分，針對降低飼料的營業稅部分，我們從7月開始又延長3個月，我們現在正在跟飼料廠洽談，因為他們降價的幅度，雖然過去他們有兩、三次的降價，可是那個降價的幅度比預期的還低，應該這麼講，所以我們現在也希望再跟這些飼料廠來做溝通，希望政府提供了營業稅的降低，其實應該回饋到生產端的部分，對於這個部分，我想我們會努力的來協助溝通。"],["陳委員素月：對，這也是蛋農一直以來的訴求，所以我們也期待這個部分有好消息啦。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝陳部長。接下來我要請教有關產業的問題，請陳部長先回座，有請經濟部次長。","院長，我們看到科技的AI教父黃仁勳執行長來到臺灣，可以說是颳起了AI旋風，再加上過去我們也看到台積電是我們的護國神山，它在我們國內設廠也引起地方很多縣市爭相爭取希望他們能到當地來投資設廠，可是對我們彰化縣來說，是不是請教卓院長，就你所瞭解，彰化縣有沒有可能爭取台積電或輝達來設廠？"],["卓院長榮泰：世界的大廠能夠到臺灣來投資都是我們歡迎的，但是我們也要做好所有的基礎設施，包括水電的供應，還有整個投資環境、工作環境等等，我們會給這些大廠充足的資訊，告訴它，它的產業在哪裡我們能夠提供最好的服務給它，我想最終的決定還是在他們，我知道很多縣市包括首長、民意代表都很積極的在爭取，我覺得這都是給他們一個很好的建議，希望到最後總是落在臺灣，這個才是對臺灣未來整體科技發展跟經濟升級是有幫忙的。"],["陳委員素月：請教院長，你知道全國各縣市勞工平均薪資最低的是哪裡嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我只知道彰化是雞蛋下最多的地方。"],["陳委員素月：彰化縣是勞工平均薪資最低的地方，為什會最低，卓院長你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：可能是就業的關係。"],["陳委員素月：因為都是傳統產業，因為傳統產業的薪資本來就只能維持在那樣的薪資水平，所以你要怎樣拉高彰化縣平均勞工的薪資，就是一定要有大的科技廠、大的產業來進駐，才有可能做到，一方面帶動產業的發展、繁榮，進而才有可能提高薪資的水平。其實我們地方也都很期待台積電跟輝達這些科技大廠可以來設廠，可是礙於用水、用電的問題，可能就是沒有那個條件。次長，你知道嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，其實目前我們去盤點過，彰化的水跟電都沒有問題，尤其彰化目前就只有一個超高壓的用電戶，其他整個供電的部分是足夠的，水也是足夠的。"],["陳委員素月：請教次長，就您這樣說的話，是不是二林中科可以爭取台積電跟輝達來設廠？"],["陳次長正祺：那個因為是縣政府開發的工業區，我們會積極來跟地方政府合作，看能不能吸引科技廠過去，不過這裡面要先符合縣政府的園區管理相關規定，因為那個精密機械到底哪些可以進駐，還要再跟地方政府討論。"],["陳委員素月：因為二林中科當初在開發時的環評就是有高耗能、高耗水的限制，也就是限定在低耗能、低耗水的產業進駐，因為這樣的一個條件，整個園區有一個總量的用水跟用電的上限，所以整體的用電、用水當然沒有問題，可是對於這個園區來說，它是有總量的限制，對於這個部分，我們有可能協助它來解除這樣的限制嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：我們再來跟地方政府討論，再跟縣政府討論。"],["陳委員素月：跟它討論？這個應該是由中央來決定吧？"],["陳次長正祺：因為那個是縣政府的工業區，不是經濟部主管，所以我們會站在從旁協助的立場來跟縣政府討論。"],["陳委員素月：所以要不要解除是彰化縣政府決定就可以嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：這個程序我現在沒有辦法完整的回答，不過因為它是縣政府開發的工業區，我們會站在從旁協助的立場來協助。"],["陳委員素月：我想當初會有這樣一個環評條件的限制，可能也是考慮到供水跟供電的問題，因為彰化縣沒有水庫，所以在用水上，當然地方當初可能會去擔憂是不是會排擠到民生用水或農業用水，當初可能有這樣的一個考量，但對於這樣子的外部條件，事實上我們是可以去改善、去強化的，是不是？院長。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，在水的部分，水利署現在有要做臺中、彰化，還有雲林這邊的調度，我們希望未來能夠有所改善。"],["陳委員素月：是，有關電的部分，因為我們彰化外海就是整個臺灣應該說是最優質、最大的離岸風電場，目前我們在外海的風機，也就是離岸風電的發電量應該有達到3%至4%了嘛，所以在用電上應該是很足夠。至於水的部分，因為我們也看到目前政府從北到南都有在規劃海淡廠，獨獨就是彰化縣沒有，所以針對這個部分，我們希望中央政府也可以來規劃考量設置海淡廠，解決用水的問題，這樣子的話，在強化了水、電的條件之後，科技產業才有可能來進駐。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，現在水是足夠的，而且未來會要求50%以下要用再生水，所以我們先做再生水，那個水還會有多，所以目前看起來，水跟電都不是問題，我們先要來解決園區的管理規定，這應該是第一個題目。另外，AI部分我們也會協助討論。"],["陳委員素月：是，彰化縣是百萬人口的大縣，所以我們也希望透過產業的提升，能夠留住地方的人才，不要讓人口繼續外流，然後也帶動地方產業的發展，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","黃秀芳委員及蔡其昌委員之質詢均以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員黃秀芳書面質詢：","彰化是全台的產蛋大縣，產量佔全國的二分之一，蛋雞場遍佈全縣各地，因為距離產地近，坊間出現許多「非正規」賣蛋管道，網友自嘲「這是彰化人蛋蛋的幸福」。據統計，全彰化縣共有800多處蛋雞場、飼養量約2,000萬隻，號稱「最會下蛋的縣」。","去年台灣雞蛋減產，農業部委託財團法人中央畜產會向泰國、菲律賓、美國、巴西、澳洲、土耳其、馬來西亞，專案進口雞蛋，不過由於端午節後雞蛋需求趨緩，為了避免影響國內雞蛋價格，農業部預計銷毀5,402萬顆蛋，引發爭議。","從產地到效期標示，這些日子，民眾對於雞蛋的疑惑叢生，除了業者有意或無意觸法，台灣法規未及時跟上也是一大問題。業者對外宣稱「雞蛋洗選當天往後推一個月為保存期限」的業界習慣，是30年前台灣開始推動洗選蛋之初，由農業部（時為農委會）、養雞協會和專家學者訂出的「參考標準」。","台灣不習慣將洗選後的蛋噴蠟，低溫冷鏈運輸系統也不完備，因此在綜合考量下，訂了21～24天左右的保存期限供業者參考，但若是經過CAS優良農產品認證的雞蛋，保存期限則寫得更嚴格，25°C以下保存14天。","另一個影響業者標示有效期限的因素是通路商，通路商販售時，會要求產品須有一定的保存期限，全聯一向要求蛋的有效期限要標一個月，「我們就要負責一個月的安全。」","不過洗選蛋保存期限一個月只是參考值，台灣並沒有統一標準，更沒有針對進口蛋轉到台灣後有保存期限標示規定。食藥署和農業部都表示，有效期限須依照儲放環境、運輸條件等等，由業者自行考量後制定，在期限內業者須對產品食安負責。農業部另強調，進口雞蛋洗選後可以依照慣習標示為洗選後一個月，但不能超出出口國提供的有效期限。","問題一：目前雞蛋效期，目前依法並未規定要標註「雞蛋原產地」，食藥署與農業部共同輔導業者，不論散裝、盒裝，均要標示原產地，但並無強制規定，也未訂有罰則，那麼要怎麼確認這些雞蛋未來不會再有洗產地洗標示跟改日期的情況？","問題二：氣候變化已成常態，並且直接影響雞蛋的生產情況，農業部對於雞蛋的價格、蛋農的權益保護，做哪些相關的努力？","問題三：相關通路會要求業者須遵照通路的規定做標示，這些通路的業管雖不盡然歸農業部管轄，對於通路與業者之間的協定，是否應該做統一協調？使其與農業部的相關規定一致化，除便利消費者了解相關規定外，銷售端也能夠有較為統一的說法來面對消費者提出的疑慮，以免雞蛋的相關規定各種不實傳言繼續流傳。"],["委員蔡其昌書面質詢：","一、世界正面臨極端氣候之苦，臺灣亦不例外，劇烈的氣候變遷，豪雨、乾旱、高溫等極端天氣現象，嚴重影響農作物生長和收成，例如今年高溫，造成果樹未按時開花或開花率僅2至3成，影響收成、高溫使得蜂群欠缺蜜源導致產量減少，高溫也會造成稻子稔實困難，最嚴重是無水可灌溉，目前農業部雖針對各類農損狀況啟動農業天然災害現金救助，這僅暫時解決短期生產損失的問題，而極端氣候問題並非一朝一夕就可改善，爰此，要求行政院應針對極端氣候提出對具體對策，協助農民調適，促進農業永續發展。","二、台灣耕地雖以私有土地為多數，然仍有大量農民之耕作地為向國有財產署所承租，其中更不乏以「民國82年7月21日前」已實際耕作人之現耕人或繼受耕作之現耕人、實際耕作之農民。惟其中有部份農民常因各式因素導致暫時中止耕作，例如：生病、配合國營事業工程施作或其它原因，導致欲復耕時仍需重新向國有財產署申請耕地，且申租規定已修正為照申租人類別優先順序使得申租，該欄位順序由高到低順序分別是：","(1)82年7月21日前已實際耕作之現耕人或繼受其耕作之現耕人","(2)中央農業主管機關專案輔導之青年農民（第二順位）","(3)實際耕作毗鄰耕地之耕地所有權人","(4)實際耕作毗鄰耕地之耕地承租人","(5)農業學校畢業青年","(6)家庭農場從事農業青年","(7)最近五年內取得農業主管機關農業專業訓練40小時以上證明文件者","(8)農業生產合作社","換言之，即使具有82/7/21前資格之實際耕作人，其順位也將從第一順位變成最末順位，無異於工作權遭受剝奪。此外，農民在失去國耕地資格同時，卻收到不法集團透過吸收符合「中央農業主管機關專案輔導之青年農民」之青年人頭向原耕作人高價轉租邀請。追蹤發現，上述所提之第二順位「中央農業主管機關專案輔導之青年農民」在管制上相當寬鬆，例如：屏東人可承租宜蘭國耕地、實際耕作人與承租人不符等，成為不法集團的溫床。","鑑於臺灣耕地面積減少、農業勞動力短缺之今日，本席認同政府欲鼓勵更多青農投入農業，但不該無形中排擠更多實際耕作人，並讓有心人士利用吸收人頭而有系統承租大量國耕地獲利，爰此要求行政院應查明此類狀況，使政府在鼓勵青農同時，也對真正實際耕作人給予更多保障，並檢討修正相關青農承租資格審查、耕作事實審查機制，才能有利國家整體農業發展。","三、國家發展委員會最新的人口推估資料『2022至2070年人口推估報告』，我國未來人口變動趨勢是：明年（2025年）我國將進入超高齡社會（65歲以上人口占總人口比率超過20%，四年後（2028年），15至64歲工作年齡人口占總人口的比率開始低於三分之二，對經社發展有利的人口紅利將消失，勞動力減弱，社會經濟負擔加重。少子化和人口老化，將使得缺工問題日益嚴峻，並不利於臺灣產業發展，為維持我國經濟成長所需的動能，行政院應積極思考人力政策以及產業升級策略，維持我國經濟動能。"],["主席：下一位請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴士葆","蘇清泉","顏寬恒","馬文君","謝衣鳯","丁學忠","郭昱晴","陳素月","黃秀芳","蔡其昌","張啓楷","林德福","黃國昌"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002","1136401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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是提高這個需求量嘛。那因為尤其啊就是說我們在這個蛋價在持續下跌的時候我們也看到中央續產會啊還釋出了這個1000萬顆的這個是進口蛋嘛。"},{"start":290.649,"end":310.71,"text":"所以這個部分是不是可以請部長說明一下,因為這個部分基農也很不滿,這個彈農也很不滿。我跟委員說明,就是區長會釋出的這些,最主要是以這個彈粉或液彈為主。然後有一部分是茶葉彈,比較少部分。那這個部分特別是在液彈的部分是在加工噴條用的部分。"},{"start":311.05,"end":330.819,"text":"那我昨天特別也跟我們農業部的畜牧師這邊來討論就是在這段時間我們還是不要釋出為主讓這個產地本身能夠比較持平第二個部分剛才委員所說的就是希望我們在淡多的時候能夠類似這種所謂的變成一個倉儲倉儲的方式我們評估的結果"},{"start":334.961,"end":360.232,"text":"在這個時間點,你如果進場去收購的時候,蛋農就不會去做調節。反正生了蛋就有政府來收的時候,會造成說這個產業的老母雞的淘汰會更加的不順利。所以我們分兩個階段,就是說當你的老母雞的淘汰到了一定的水準以後,我們就可以開始有一部分的這種所謂的滾動倉儲的概念能夠導入。"},{"start":362.803,"end":374.17,"text":"當然就是剛剛你有講到這個整個彈機的一個生產就是它有一定的一個期程就是一個節奏那淘汰老母機所以我們也擔心就是說從總機到這個老母機到這個母機然後生蛋這樣子一個生產的一個過程"},{"start":382.876,"end":382.916,"text":"﹚陳素月"},{"start":403.34,"end":403.44,"text":"﹚陳素月"},{"start":419.236,"end":419.376,"text":"﹚陳素月"},{"start":438.531,"end":441.312,"text":"我想非常謝謝那個委員的一個建議跟提醒我們也深刻的去檢討本身的一個雞蛋的一個產銷"},{"start":464.4,"end":484.613,"text":"我個人覺得就是說在112年的時候,那是因為全旅館全世界大規模的發生,造成就算你在生產的時候也不夠。其中還有另外一個非常重要的就是整個產地從總機、除機、單中機到單機本身的資訊,它的定期的更新的速度太慢。"},{"start":485.573,"end":514.541,"text":"所以我在這邊已經要求我們的所有的畜牧師的同仁針對整個的產業鏈的這個資訊的掌握要更及時因為你唯有從整個的產業鏈裡面的各個產業別的本身的這些知識你能夠去了解包括他喚語的部分所以我們現在已經啟動了這樣的一個調查新的一個調查方式然後看用什麼樣的方式讓這個資訊更健全當你把這個資訊更掌握的時候再做後續的預警的部分就能更有效率啦"},{"start":514.921,"end":520.621,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們會針對我們看到的這些必須檢討的部分我們會努力來持續來精進。"},{"start":521.721,"end":546.858,"text":"是,好,就是說這整個生產資訊真的很重要要去掌握然後要就是才能夠去掌握這個生產的一個供需量那另外就是說目前蛋農遇到的問題就是這個蛋價已經不敷成本了那很多蛋農都覺得說他們撐不下去了那你還要等你說這個淘汰老母雞真的對他們幫助不大我們還有什麼比較實質上的幫助"},{"start":547.298,"end":571.332,"text":"我們還有一個就是現在的那個淡雞的這些飼料的部分那因為飼料我們從7月開始我們又延了上個月降低他的那個營業稅的部分那我們希望我們現在正在跟飼料廠再去做洽談因為他們降價的幅度啦他們過去現在說有兩三次的降價可是那個降價的幅度"},{"start":572.588,"end":572.768,"text":"﹚陳素月"},{"start":603.068,"end":625.04,"text":"院長,我們知道科技的AI教父黃仁勳執行長來到台灣可以說是刮起了AI的一個旋風。再加上過去我們也看到台積電是我們的護國神山,它在我們國內設廠也引起我們地方很多縣市爭相爭取希望去那邊投資設廠。"},{"start":626.821,"end":653.578,"text":"可是在我們彰化縣對彰化縣來說像是不是請教卓院長就你所了解彰化縣有沒有可能爭取這個台積電或輝達來設廠世界的大廠能夠到臺灣來投資都是我們歡迎的但是我們也要做好所有的基礎設施包括水電的供應還有整個投資環境工作環境等等那我們會給這些大廠充足的資訊告訴他"},{"start":655.479,"end":658,"text":"請教院長就是你知道我們全國各縣市勞工平均薪資最低的是哪裡嗎?"},{"start":685.816,"end":696.23,"text":"我只知道彰化市雞蛋蝦最多的地方。彰化縣市勞工平均薪資最低的地方。為什麼會最低?卓院長你知道嗎?就業的關係。"},{"start":699.175,"end":718.401,"text":"因為都是傳統產業,因為傳統產業薪資本來就是維持在那樣的一個薪資水平。所以你要怎樣拉高彰化縣的一個平均勞工的一個薪資,只有就是一定要有這個大的科技廠、大的一個產業來進駐,才有可能一方面帶動這個產業的發展、繁榮,然後也才有可能"},{"start":723.467,"end":724.048,"text":"﹚陳素月"},{"start":742.243,"end":771.449,"text":"報告委員其實目前我們去盤點過章化的這個水跟電都沒有問題尤其章化目前就一個超高壓的這個用電戶其他的整個這個供電部分是足夠水也是足夠的那請教次長您知道就您這樣說的話那是不是那個中科二林中科可以爭取柴基電跟那個輝達來設廠那個因為是縣政府開發的工業區我們會積極來跟地方政府合作"},{"start":775.88,"end":778.262,"text":"因為二嶺中科它當初在開發的時候就是有那個環評就是有高耗能就是高耗水的一個限制就是限定在低耗能低耗水的產業進駐"},{"start":798.12,"end":799.16,"text":"我們再來跟地方政府討論再來跟縣政府討論"},{"start":822.205,"end":840.593,"text":"因為他是縣政府的工業區不是經濟部主管所以我們會站在從旁協助的立場來跟縣政府討論這個程序我現在沒有辦法完整的回答不過因為他是縣政府開發工業區我們就會站在從旁協助的立場來協助"},{"start":843.017,"end":866.027,"text":"我想當初會有這樣子的一個環評的一個條件的限制我想可能也是考慮到供水跟供電的問題那因為彰化縣沒有水庫沒有水庫所以在用水上當然地方當初可能就是會去擔憂到說是不是會排擠到民生用水或農業用水可能有這樣子的一個考量"},{"start":866.897,"end":875.403,"text":"所以在這樣子的外部條件,事實上我們是可以去改善的嘛,去強化的嘛,是不是院長?"},{"start":875.403,"end":886.472,"text":"院長報告委員,在水的部分,水利署現在有要做這個台中彰化,還有雲林這邊的這個調度,我們希望未來能夠有所改善。"},{"start":887.383,"end":895.786,"text":"是,那個電的部分因為我們彰化的外海就是整個臺灣應該說是最優質最大的這個離岸風電廠那目前我們在外海的這個就是風機的離岸風電的這個發電量應該有達到3%至4%了所以在這個用電上應該是很足夠那這個水的部分呢"},{"start":911.613,"end":927.388,"text":"目前政府從北到南都有在規劃這個海淡廠,獨獨就是彰化縣沒有。所以我覺得說這個部分是不是我們希望中央政府也可以來規劃考量設置這個海淡廠,解決這個用水的問題。所以這樣子的話強化了這個水電的條件之後,這個科技產業才有可能來進駐。"},{"start":933.919,"end":947.904,"text":"報告委員現在水是足夠的而且未來會要求50%以上用再生水所以我們先做再生水那個水還會有多所以目前看起來水跟電都不是問題我們先要來解決園區的管理規定這應該是第一個題目"},{"start":965.097,"end":965.422,"text":"好謝謝,謝謝陳委員"}]}},{"id":"154397","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154397","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68af8b7e2df94a56ec96cd03fb23edab3c9084592ae7b5b568b343b689e4d41e2da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"16:12:38 - 16:29:32","影片長度":"00:16:54","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T16:12:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T16:29:32+08:00","duration":1014,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":500,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（16時12分）謝謝主席副院長。是不是麻煩有請行政院卓院長？"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：卓院長好。賴清德總統在競選總統的時候，提出他的能源政策，作為總統所提名的行政院院長，我相信您最重要的任務就是要實踐賴總統跟全體國民所提出來的政見，其中非常重要的一環，也是今天大家很關心的事情，就是能源政策的問題，我今天要請教院長的是，這個路徑到底要怎麼樣實踐？這一、兩天總統府環境變遷委員會副召集人童子賢童董事長，他對於我們有關低碳發電的這件事情上面，其實提出了滿強烈的批評。我知道童董事長是一個非常有社會責任感的企業家，我個人也非常的尊敬他。童董事長說馬政府卸任的時候，低碳發電19.4%；蔡總統卸任的時候，低碳發電只有16.9%，童董事長的數據正不正確？"],["陳次長正祺：要回去確認。"],["黃委員國昌：我喜歡討論事情從事實開始，因為這樣的發言事實上是代表我們在淨零碳排的道路上面不進反退嘛！那我們就先從事實開始，童董事長這樣子的數據，剛剛……對不起，您是……"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，經濟部次長陳正祺。"],["黃委員國昌：次長嘛！次長說你不知道正不正確，還要回去再確認，是嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好。我跟次長報告，他的數據是正確的，因為他大概就是把火力發電、燃煤跟燃氣加在一起，用100%去減掉火力發電的數字，就是他所謂低碳發電的比例，我把它全部都列出來了，這是從經濟部能源署的網站下面下載的數字。這個是過去蔡政府所留下來的問題，我沒有要苛責賴清德總統，但我們在討論問題的時候，知道我們今天從哪裡出發非常、非常地重要。","我首先要請教卓院長的是，你認為在賴總統第一任的任期，也就是到2028年的時候，這一個非低碳發電的比例，也就是所謂火力發電的占比會降到多少？你們現在接手，今年1月到4月是81.57%，你們現在目標的規劃是要降到多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，剛剛前面那個數字，因為我們現在的火力發電也是逐漸要降低，燃氣會增加，所以理論上是不應該出現，我到現在沒有看過這樣的數字，我們可以重新回頭去查……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，請你跟我講，你們到2028卸任的時候，你的目標值要降到多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在有幾個火力發電廠要停下來沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的目標值要降到多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個計算之後再跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內書面回復我可以嗎？因為我們現在要討論的事情，我沒有要在比較抽象的政策面上跟你討論，因為抽象的政策面上賴總統提出他的政見，他也當選了，就要實踐他的政見。我們現在關心的是立法院監督，我們要知道路徑怎麼達成嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["黃委員國昌：否則的話只是在開空頭支票嘛！好，第二個部分，你真的看二氧化碳的碳排放量，其實你也可以看得出來，從剛剛的比例到二氧化碳的碳排放量，童子賢董事長的批評其實沒有說錯，整個趨勢、整個數字全部都是一致的。我非常支持發展再生能源，所以我對於現在再生能源發展的狀況非常地關心。","蔡英文總統說，2025再生能源要達到20%，去年的經濟部也承認這是一個沒有辦法達到的政見，確定跳票了，賴清德總統也很坦率地承認這件事情做不到，他接棒下去做，要2026年才可以實踐。我相信我對於蔡英文總統的承諾，以及賴清德總統的政見，這些數字整理都不會錯，這個是白紙黑字的東西。但我現在關心的事情是什麼？政治人物選舉的時候，政見開支票，我們就要努力地去達成，這才是民主政治，這才是責任政治，我們講要達成不是一句我努力就好，人民要看到的是你努力的方法，以及你努力的路徑。我這樣說沒有錯吧？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們來看一下努力的路徑。到目前為止，我們2024年再生能源的發電量占10.7%，這個一樣是經濟部能源署統計的資料，我下面的困惑是2026年要到20%，現在是占10.7%，我們2026年要到20%，也就是將近還有10%，精準地講是9.3%要達成。這個路徑要怎麼達成？我把再生能源的種類全部都很詳細地把它畫出來了，我具體地請教，你們到2026年要達成20%再生能源的路徑當中，你們估計要達到20%，其中太陽光電要占百分之幾？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，這個會delay的原因主要是因為當時……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我沒有問你delay的原因，我也沒有怪你們，跳票的是蔡英文，我沒有怪在賴清德頭上，現在我在問的是賴清德說他2026要達標，我們就具體地講，現在只有10.7%，還差9.3%嘛，那你的太陽光電在你20%的占比當中要占多少？"],["陳次長正祺：我們未來會在風電的併聯上面……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我請教你的是太陽光電，你打算占比要多少？"],["陳次長正祺：太陽光電我們大概會到20GW，那麼……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，20GW是20GW喔，現在我說，在你2026再生能源占比要20%，沒有錯吧？好，在你的再生能源要占的20%裡面，太陽光電要占百分之幾，這是我的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，再生能源的種類是越來越多發展……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我很具體地來問，太陽光電要占百分之幾？請說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請國發會稍微解釋一下。"],["黃委員國昌：請說明太陽光電要占百分之幾？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是只有太陽光電，而是整個再生能源的種類很多。"],["黃委員國昌：是，但我不喜歡混起來講。"],["卓院長榮泰：其他的類項如果增加，太陽光電……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你每一類要到百分之幾，我希望跟國人說清楚講明白，我知道再生能源有很多，所以我把所有的數字都列出來了，這是經濟部能源署網站公告的，我今天的問題很簡單，賴清德總統開了政見，我們大家都願意相信他，他要努力地去達成，政見達成要有路徑，剛剛院長也表示同意嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在再生能源2026年要到20%，其中太陽光電，你們目前的施政計畫是占百分之幾？這個問題很具體，一點都不複雜、也不困難，太陽光電要占百分之幾？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告一下，我們現在談的是2026年，現在是2024年，所以還有兩年的時間，所以我們國發會也在努力幫經濟部再找新的能源。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟你報告一下，現在國內已經有廠商開始安裝由瓦斯轉藍綠氫的綠能，這個藍綠氫綠能已經實際運作……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你剛剛所講的那個新技術，你打算要占百分之幾？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們打算在2026年產生大約是1.5GW，為什麼……"],["黃委員國昌：1.5GW在裡面的發電占比占百分之幾？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為它的建置在一年內……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個數字我們算出來再給委員……"],["黃委員國昌：真的是！我這樣說好了，施政不能只喊口號，施政要有路徑，我希望達到20%，現在是10.7%……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，可是……"],["黃委員國昌：我們還有9.3%要make up，太陽光電打算占百分之幾？風電打算占百分之幾？地熱要占百分之幾？這樣子一個施政路徑的藍圖，難道不應該讓社會知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員理解，我一句話，我這兩天跟劉主委談到我們很多綠能的發展，我們有很多項別，我會跟他去做很多的瞭解，之後我們才訂一個未來可以看得到的，我想這個速度不會很慢，會讓大家知道……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：國發會再說一下，我們馬上會去進行瞭解，已經安排好時間。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們一個月會給你最新的……"],["黃委員國昌：好，一個月，因為這個要具體的問，我們才能實事求是、就是論事的討論問題嘛！要不然全部都在打高空、開支票，我相信、我也希望達到20%，但我為什麼要具體地問太陽光電占百分之幾、風電占百分之幾、剛剛您所講的新的技術要占百分之幾？因為我們日後都要檢驗的嘛！好，我為什麼……"],["卓院長榮泰：統整出來以後跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：對、對，我為什麼關心太陽光電要占百分之幾？這是一個很關鍵的問題，為什麼我這樣說？來，看一下，目前太陽能光電發電的裝置容量是12.96GW，最新的數據到4月，這應該不會錯，全部都是經濟部的數據。好，在這樣的情況之下，目前太陽光電在我們發電量的占比是4.7%，到2026年……我剛剛為什麼要問這個問題？我需要知道你們打算占的比例是多少，我才能夠去估計你要再多多少GW才能夠達到這個percentage，這是一個非常率直而且非常重要的問題，為什麼是非常重要的問題？我們在討論目標的時候，不是喊口號就會到，而是要實踐，所以我需要知道你太陽光電的占比要多少，你要有多少的發電裝置容量才可以make up你希望達到的目標，我相信我在這邊問的、說的都是合情合理，也是人民所關心的，但是這件事情在政府的政策上為什麼重要？因為我們需要知道我們要達到那個目標，還需要投入多少土地。1公頃可以發多少MW？您知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們跟委員報告過了，如果其他能源可以發展起來，這個會改變，所以我們盤點以後會跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我的意思是說你不能只有目標，你要有路徑，為什麼這件事情重要？我直接show下面……"],["卓院長榮泰：路徑很多樣……"],["黃委員國昌：因為我要知道的是什麼？我要知道的是2026年的時候，我們盤點現在的狀況，到2026年為止，我要達到太陽光電的發電量，我需要知道一件事情，還需要多少土地？這個對施政重不重要？當然重要，為什麼重要？我跟院長報告，能源用地白皮書──光電篇，去年經濟部說年底的時候要公布，到現在還沒有公布，這個能源用地的白皮書，請問什麼時候可以公布？這個是你們網頁上面寫的，嚴謹制定綠能發展區，將能源用地白皮書規劃指引。這個白皮書，我到今天不斷地搜尋，還沒有公布，請問什麼時候公布？這會牽涉到你的目標，到底有沒有realistic？你的土地規劃到底是什麼？還需要多少公頃？打算要在哪裡？這不是行政院每天應該要做的事情嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：我們今年底以前會公布。"],["黃委員國昌：今年底才會公布喔？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["黃委員國昌：還需要這麼久？整整delay了一年，沒關係，我拭目以待，因為你們土地一定要盤點出來，要不然大家怎麼知道怎麼樣支持、配合我們政府的施政計畫，達到這個目標；要不然一天到晚在喊20%、20%、20%，等到2028年的時候才說對不起，沒有做到，基於什麼樣的原因。我們現在就要知道你的施政藍圖是什麼、你的施政路徑是什麼、你的施政計畫是什麼、需要多少GW、需要多少土地、政府盤點土地的結果是如何，我相信這都是非常重要而且非常理性的公共政策討論，完全沒有任何政治口水在裡面。我希望剛剛院長所承諾的一個月時間告訴全體國人，你的路徑是什麼，今年年底以前把能源用地白皮書公布出來，可以承諾嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：可以，而且我們需要跟社會各界溝通。"],["黃委員國昌：下一個很重要的問題，我支持發展綠能，但我痛恨政治權貴攀炎附勢、違法濫權、胡搞瞎搞，力暘集團就是一個最典型的例子，透過偽造變造的同意書，結果當初農委會跟它講，你根本不符合但書，不可用小二甲破碎的農地，能源局也跟它講，你根本就不可以納入110年的計畫，你是109年搞的事情。結果我們的中央到地方通風報信、量身打造，幫這個綠色權貴搞解套方案，然後檢察官很火大起訴了，不法獲利上百億，倒填日期139案，不實文件比例達到96.15%，透過騙來的不實資料、偽造變造文件取得的電業籌設許可，絕對是一個違法的行政處分。在舊的政府要下臺以前，我問得非常的清楚，經濟部跟我說他們絕對會做行政調查，該撤銷就要撤銷，請問目前調查的進度，違法取得的電業籌設許可──騙來的、違法的、現在圖利被起訴的違法電業籌設許可要不要撤銷？"],["陳次長正祺：我們目前已經全面停止力暘申請案的行政作業。"],["黃委員國昌：那是另外一回事喔！前面用偽造變造的文書騙到的電業籌設許可是不是違法的？"],["陳次長正祺：依照行政程序法的規定，我們大概會依法來辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：依法來辦理是依法要撤銷，還需要多久？"],["陳次長正祺：依照判決來決定。"],["黃委員國昌：依照判決不對喔！現在的判決是刑事司法，有沒有刑事司法有貪污治罪條例的構成要件，你剛剛自己說行政程序是依照行政程序法，這沒有判決的問題啊！"],["陳次長正祺：我們要看它……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候要撤銷？"],["陳次長正祺：我們要依照法院認定的事實來辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼叫做法院認定的事實？你們行政調查報告還要做多久？承諾的行政調查報告還要做多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政部分已經全面停止……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起！行政調查報告還要做多久？做出來沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：次長說待司法判決……"],["黃委員國昌：行政調查報告還要做多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：它已經全面停止了。"],["陳次長正祺：停止了，我們現在……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起！我問的是行政調查報告還要做多久，這是你們承諾過要做的，我剛剛都show出來了，不要把刑事案件與違法行政處分的撤銷混在一起，我的問題很具體，行政調查報告還要做多久？"],["陳次長正祺：這個還要再跟臺南市政府一起來調查。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你說要跟臺南市政府一起調查，行政調查啟動了沒有？"],["陳次長正祺：啟動了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，還要做多久？我老實跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們把前面停止的原因……"],["黃委員國昌：行政調查就好好去調查，但是對於這種違法使用偽造文件的綠色權貴，絕對不能放水，可不可以承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：依法處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，行政調查報告還要多久？你不要跟我說要做2年、要做4年、要做5年，行政調查報告還要多久？請教最後一個問題，你回答完就結束，不好意思！跟副院長致歉。"],["卓院長榮泰：依法處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的答案只有依法辦理？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢，7月2日（星期二）上午9時繼續開會，進行經濟組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（16時29分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴士葆","蘇清泉","顏寬恒","馬文君","謝衣鳯","丁學忠","郭昱晴","陳素月","黃秀芳","蔡其昌","張啓楷","林德福","黃國昌"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002","1136401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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up9.3%要Make up我太陽光電打算佔幾%風電打算佔幾%地熱要佔幾%這樣子的一個施政路徑的藍圖難道不應該讓社會知道嗎"},{"start":525.638,"end":525.978,"text":"需要多久?需要多久?"},{"start":551.462,"end":575.427,"text":"我們一個月給你一個月齁因為這個要具體的問我們才能實事求是就事論事的討論問題嘛要不然全部都在打高空開支票我相信我也希望達到20%但我為什麼要具體的問太陽光電佔幾%風電佔幾%剛剛您所講的新的技術要佔幾%因為我們日後都要檢驗的嘛好我為什麼關心太陽光電要佔幾%這是一個很關鍵的問題為什麼我這樣說來看一下"},{"start":581.408,"end":610.376,"text":"我目前太陽能光電發電的裝置容量是12.96GW最新的數據到4月這應該不會錯全部都是經濟部的數據好在這樣的情況之下目前太陽光電我們發電量的佔比是4.7%到2026年我剛剛為什麼要問這個問題我需要知道你們打算佔的比例是多少我才能夠去估計說你要再多多少GW才能夠達到這個percentage"},{"start":611.136,"end":637.714,"text":"這是一個非常、這是一個非常率直而且非常重要的問題。為什麼非常重要的問題?我們在討論目標的時候,不是喊口號就會到,要實踐嘛。所以我需要知道說,欸?那你太陽光列佔比要多少?你要有多少的發電裝置容量才可以make up你希望達到的目標?我相信我在這邊問的、說的都是合情合理,也是人民所關心的。"},{"start":638.214,"end":653.102,"text":"但是這件事情在政府的政策上為什麼重要?因為我們需要知道我們要達到那個目標還需要投入多少土地?一公頃可以發多少MW?"},{"start":654.246,"end":682.002,"text":"您知道嗎?所以我們跟委員報告過了,我們如果其他的能源可以發展起來,這個會改變,所以我們就盤點吧,能源報告嘛。我的意思是說你不能只有目標,你要有路徑,為什麼這件事情重要我直接秀下面,因為我要知道的是什麼?我要知道的是2026年的時候,到2026年為止,我們盤點現在的狀況,到2026年為止,我要達到這個太陽光電的發電量,我需要知道一件事情,還需要多少土地?"},{"start":683.243,"end":698.562,"text":"這個對施政重不重要當然重要為什麼重要我跟院長報告能源用地白皮書光電篇去年經濟部說年底的時候要公布到現在還沒有公布這個能源用地的白皮書請問什麼時候可以公布"},{"start":700.977,"end":727.804,"text":"這個是你們網頁上面寫的喔嚴謹制定綠能發展區將能源用地白皮書規劃執引這個白皮書我到今天不斷的搜尋還沒有公布請問什麼時候公布這會牽涉到你的目標到底有沒有realistic嘛你的土地規劃到底是什麼嘛還需要多少公頃嘛打算要在哪裡嘛這不是行政院每天應該要做的事情嗎"},{"start":728.632,"end":739.812,"text":"我們今年底以前會公布今年底才會公布喔還需要這麼久整整delay了一年啊沒關係啊我拭目以待啊因為你們土地一定要盤點出來嘛"},{"start":741.26,"end":769.195,"text":"要不然大家怎麼知道怎麼樣支持怎麼配合我們政府的施政計畫達到這個目標嗎?要不然一天到晚在喊20%、20%、20%然後等到2028年的時候才說對不起沒有做到基於什麼樣子的原因?我們現在就要知道你的施政藍圖是什麼?你的施政路徑是什麼?你的施政計畫是什麼?需要多少Gigawatts?需要多少土地?政府盤點土地的結果是如何?我相信"},{"start":770.155,"end":789.929,"text":"這都是非常重要而且非常理性的公共政策討論。完全沒有任何政治口水在裡面。我希望剛剛院長所承諾的一個月的時間告訴全體國人你的路徑是什麼?今年年底以前把這個能源用地排比書公布出來可以承諾嗎?"},{"start":793.188,"end":819.256,"text":"下一個重要的問題我支持發展綠能但我痛恨政治權貴攀岩覆世違法濫權胡搞瞎搞麗陽集團就是一個最典型的例子透過偽造變造透過偽造變造的同意書結果什麼當初農委會跟他講你根本不符合淡書不可以用小二甲破碎的農地"},{"start":820.831,"end":848.11,"text":"南院局也跟他講你根本就不可以納入110年的計畫你是109年搞的事情啊結果我們的中央到地方通風報信量身打造幫這個綠色的權貴搞解套方案然後呢檢察官很火大起訴了不法獲利上百億稻田日期139萬不實文件比例達到96.15"},{"start":851.667,"end":866.589,"text":"後過遍來不實的資料、偽造、變造的文件取得的電業籌設許可,這絕對是一個違法的行政處分。在舊的政府要下台以前,我問得非常的清楚,"},{"start":867.778,"end":884.929,"text":"經濟部他跟我說他們絕對會做行政調查該撤銷就要撤銷來請問目前調查的進度違法取得的電業籌設許可騙來的違法的現在圖利被起訴的違法的電業籌設許可要不要撤銷"},{"start":886.94,"end":904.908,"text":"我們目前已經全面停止立揚申請案的行政作業。那是另外一回事喔!全面用偽造變造的文書騙到了電業從事的許可是不是違法的?那依照行政程序法的規定我們大概會依法來辦理。依法來辦理是依法要撤銷嗎?還需要多久?依照判決來決定。"},{"start":906.138,"end":928.287,"text":"依照判決不對喔現在的判決是刑事司法有沒有刑事司法有貪污自罪條例的構成要件行政程序法你剛剛自己說的行政程序法是依照行政程序法這沒有判決的問題阿怎麼說要撤銷我們要依照法院認定的事實來辦理什麼叫做法院認定的事實阿你們行政調查報告還要做多久"},{"start":1008.491,"end":1008.792,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝王委員,謝謝左院長。"}]}},{"id":"154396","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154396","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68a3f43254f33888fee6cd03fb23edab3c9084592ae7b5b568bea997af55ec8e5e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"15:56:44 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16:12:32","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T15:56:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T16:12:32+08:00","duration":948,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（15時57分）謝謝主席、江副院長，是不是請行政院卓院長？"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：卓院長你好。因為近來有一些像食安、缺藥的問題屢屢發生，讓很多的醫療基層非常不滿，媒體也報導食藥署署長吳秀梅即將離任，外傳新署長改由中國醫藥大學藥學院的院長莊聲宏教授接任。卓院長，你對莊聲宏教授是否有信心他能夠勝任？有沒有信心？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，部會首長轄下的主管，我們通常是尊重首長對這個人的瞭解和認識，將來是他自己指揮，跟他自己配合。"],["林委員德福：瞭解，我是說食藥署署長這樣的人事案其實很重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員德福：講實在話過去吳秀梅擔任署長的時候，我經常在基層跑，很多基層的民眾對他種種的作為非常非常地不滿。這次換莊聲宏教授，他是中國醫藥大學藥學院的院長，現在面臨的問題，當然缺藥的問題很嚴重，那你認為這樣的人事案，像缺藥的問題，要多少時間讓他來做一些處理？因為這個很重要，缺藥啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個人事案的整個流程已經走完了，那……"],["林委員德福：那你認不認同，就是對他有沒有信心？對莊聲宏。"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，尊重邱部長的選擇。"],["林委員德福：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：再來，既然是一個團隊，我們就要讓團隊整體往前走，彼此要能夠有默契，要能夠有很好的團隊觀念、精神而合作。"],["林委員德福：那你認為缺藥的問題在多少時間裡面就應該要把它解決掉？不要經常缺這個藥、缺那個藥，很多民眾到醫院去要這個藥也沒有、要那個藥也沒有，你說怎麼辦，對不對？這個是跟健康直接、第一有關的耶！卓院長，你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：不管是輸液還是藥，現在都有一些問題存在。"],["林委員德福：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：就輸液，我們現在已經進國外專案進口，也從國內其他小廠希望鼓勵他們生產。另外，就原來生產的這個大廠它能不能在短時間內回復，這個都是未來衛福部食藥署要去做的事情。"],["林委員德福：其實卓院長，你應該交代他們，該給人家一點利潤還是要給……"],["卓院長榮泰：應該的。"],["林委員德福：問題就是你一直砍，砍到人家不願意做，這才是癥結點。不願意做，你就缺藥！問題的癥結點是在這裡，最嚴重的問題！我認為你身為院長，應該要求一定要解決這個問題。多少時間可以解決？你告訴我！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是相當……"],["林委員德福：這是民眾關心的事情，不是跟你沒有關係啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是相當專業的問題，我想等到新的食藥署長上任之後，我會跟部長和他一起好好地研究現在遇到的這些問題，我們真的誠實面對問題……"],["林委員德福：對啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：再提出一個可行的方式來向國人報告，儘快來做……"],["林委員德福：對啦！要增加一點錢給人家，問題解決最重要！要面對問題、探討問題，看怎麼去解決，這和人民的健康有直接的關係耶！好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，接下來要跟你討論一些離岸風電躉購費率與國產化的問題。2024年經濟部主導離岸風電第三階段的區塊開發已出現0元競標價格，經濟部說離岸風電20年躉購絕無多付9,000億，既然如此，就請經濟部告訴本席，離岸風電的躉購，政府會比競標價格多付多少錢？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，這個躉購費率剛開始的時候因為我們完全沒有經驗，需要請開發商來，所以那是參考國際間，尤其英國等等的模式，一開始我們提供一個躉購費率，接下去就變成自由市場競標，等到競標的時候，因為我們已經有第一期示範情況的結果，開發商有了信心，自然就會競價，競價的時候標案都非常便宜，有的就接近0元，躉購的時候因為不一樣，那是第一開始的時候，總是要投入一些成本。"],["林委員德福：經濟部有關離岸風電的新聞稿寫道：藉躉購價格打好產業基礎，遴選機制帶動基礎設施建立，並引進國外技術建構國內產業，發展離岸風電本土供應鏈，並扶植我國產業進軍亞太市場。2022年監察院調查報告指出：大彰化東南及西南第一階段離岸風電之水下基礎共需要111座，最終國產化實際上僅有6座而已，高達94.6%、105座之基地下的基礎均由國外進口。有關離岸風電國產化成效不佳的問題，監察院已糾正了經濟部，經濟部的新聞稿說：國產化具約束力並有罰則，絕非柔性要求，業者應於承諾年度如期如質達成國產化承諾目標及風場建置，若未如期履約，則依履約保證金及躉購費率等嚴格違約罰則機制處理。本席當然支持發展再生能源，也支持離岸風電國產化，但是離岸風電整個工程進度嚴重落後，國產化也低於預期，希望卓院長能夠明確裁示，只要離岸風電無法達成國產化的目標，就應該依比例檢討離岸風電的躉購電價。"],["卓院長榮泰：光電的電價從一開始到……"],["林委員德福：這不是光電……"],["卓院長榮泰：已經降價很多了。"],["林委員德福：是離岸風電。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，一樣。我們一開始離岸風電也是一樣，我說的兩個原則是，一開始會有很多的基礎建設，我們也希望能夠做國內技術的升級，但在這個過程當中，也發現一些困難跟沒有達到預期的效果，現在……"],["林委員德福：其實一開始問題很多啦！為什麼？因為當初等於躉購就是議價，先議價七成，後面的三成再來公開招標，公開招標一度標多少？2塊2毛2！躉購多少？5塊8毛4，等於是5塊8毛5啦！幾乎啦！你看落差多大！結果我問前經濟部部長沈榮津，他跟我說因為要國產化。實際上國產化的比率根本就很低，幾乎都是半成品進來就栽下去，對不對？次長，你有什麼看法？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，國產化其實還有相當的成就啦！因為我們國產化的範圍非常大，我們並不是要求他技術移轉，而是讓我們的在地供應鏈可以加入開發商的整個供應鏈，未來這些開發商到國際間去做離岸風電的時候，我們的供應鏈都可以跟著去，目前已經有一些實際的案例了。"],["林委員德福：問題是你給他一度是5塊8毛5，那我們公開招標的時候是標2塊2毛2，落差太大。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，實務上這些當時有標到躉購費率的業者，他也去參加公開競標，所以他的成本並不是表面上看到的5塊8毛5跟2塊2，他其實之間有一些財務上的調配，總而言之是政府跟開發商跟供應商跟在地供應鏈大家都多贏的結果，這是我們期待的一個目標。"],["林委員德福：民進黨的整個能源政策是國王的新衣，裝睡的人是叫不醒，自以為感覺良好，其實連美國商會也都質疑民進黨的能源政策，尤其童子賢董事長日前談及臺灣能源政策時表示，綠能有間歇性發電的缺點，應攜手核能各占臺灣發電比例30%，讓不排碳發電合計到60%，這是臺灣能源的黃金比例，可以追上先進國家的水準。童子賢直言臺灣能源政策不能改變的原因，無非是原來非核家園的口號來卡住了，為了要順應那個口號，就一切東西都要卡來卡去。他說臺灣本來可以大舉進步，就是因為把核能廢掉，而綠能又追不上原來設定的目標，他希望談論能源政策時政治味道越淡越好，中性看待產業需求和民生的需求。","本席支持綠能發展，台電火力全開，臺灣2050淨零排碳我看恐怕是天方夜譚，本席建議卓內閣、賴政府儘速召開能源國是會議，把所有真實數據全部都攤開來，讓全民知道，該滾動式調整能源結構，就運用核能幫助達成2050年淨零排碳的目標，卓院長你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：再跟委員報告，非核家園我早上說過了，它是在環境基本法第二十三條裡面訂的，政府應該訂定計畫，朝向非核家園……"],["林委員德福：這個不可以改嗎？現實核能也是綠能耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個法現在是存在的，而且是委員在……"],["林委員德福：那個本來就可以改啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：2002年就訂，到現在沒有改，現在是沒有修、沒有改，所以這是一個現行的法令。再來現在要經過社會有共識，核能發電達到30%……"],["林委員德福：百分之七、八十都有共識啦！只不過……"],["卓院長榮泰：30%應該是現在的社會共識，還要很大的去努力，能不能達到我都覺得不一定，但是這是一個未來可以討論的，也許新的核能技術有一天改變，是我們現在不知道的技術……"],["林委員德福：遙遙無期啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：那是未來的事情，所以我常說一句話，未來的核能解決不了今天的問題。"],["林委員德福：其實你要達到2050年淨零排碳是天方夜譚，照你們現在整個電的操作方式，真的……","關於學校電價的補貼，台電表示凍漲政策不變，但電費差額會改由各部會編列相關的預算，不再由台電來吸收。臺大校長表示一旦漲電費，對學校是嚴重的負擔，影響經費、教學研究的品質、師生的服務，教育經費法定下限明定前三年度決算歲入淨額平均值23%。本席認為窮不能窮教育、苦不能苦孩子，本席已提出教育經費編列與管理法修正草案，明定電費補助款不要計入教育經費的預算，讓更多教育經費用於學生身上，希望卓院長不要讓上漲的電價吃掉學生的教育預算，你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：次長回答一下。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，我們的想法是讓台電的營運能夠更透明……"],["林委員德福：更透明漲價，學校……"],["陳次長正祺：並不會漲價，我們只是把這個預算編列，由相關主管機關來編列這個預算，該補助就補助，但是不會讓原來的用電戶……跟這個漲價是沒有關係的。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，台電長年以來擔負了很多的政策補貼跟政策目標，所以希望能夠回到目的事業主管機關，就它所屬的這些相關團體或是單位去做一些電費的計算，這個是讓台電能夠好好經營下去的一個企業精神。"],["林委員德福：所以民進黨政府高估再生能源發展的速度，又低估了AI用電需求的成長，放棄便宜的核電不用，選擇一度3到4元更貴、更髒的火力發電。本席現在說的數據是台電提供2023年燃氣發電的購電成本每度3.62元，核能每度1.3元。如果2023年台電整個核能發電的電量跟2015年一樣為351億度，則可以減少使用天然氣發電，少虧損400億，這400億等同於113年文化部300億的預算，再加上未來要成立的百億癌症新藥的基金，本席不反對發展再生能源，2025年再生能源20%的目標已確定是跳票的，經濟部下修的占比目標是15.5%，本來2025年要到20%，但是現在下修到15.5%。國際認可核能為綠電，國際能源總署強調世界需要核電來減少碳排放，美、日、韓都大舉發展核電，難道民進黨的能源政策不需要做通盤的檢討嗎？你認為要不要？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們這幾年來發展綠能，所以很多世界的大廠，包括設立資料中心，它來臺灣設廠就是指定要用綠電，如果我們沒有這幾年的發展，這些大廠是不可能選擇要來臺灣的。所以我們應該……"],["林委員德福：所以你認為電全部是100%……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，請委員一起支持我們，還是要多元發展綠電，多元發展綠電，我們還是能夠穩定供電。"],["林委員德福：大家都清清楚楚的，為什麼現在經常很多地方都在跳電。"],["卓院長榮泰：那是因為電網韌性不好。"],["林委員德福：再怎麼樣都是講電網的韌性化。"],["卓院長榮泰：我要求能夠縮短時間改善電網的韌性。"],["林委員德福：其實我認為這跟缺電是有直接關係的，下次其他的部分再跟院長來探討。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴士葆","蘇清泉","顏寬恒","馬文君","謝衣鳯","丁學忠","郭昱晴","陳素月","黃秀芳","蔡其昌","張啓楷","林德福","黃國昌"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002","1136401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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這個部會首長的轄下的主管我們通常是尊重首長他在對這個人的瞭解和認識但將來是他自己指揮跟他自己配合瞭解 我是說這些食藥署長這項人事案其實很重要因為過去講實在話吳秀梅署長擔任的時候很多基層的民眾我經常就在基層跑他們對他種種的作為非常非常的不滿"},{"start":96.345,"end":123.471,"text":"那這次換莊昇宏教授他是中國醫學院的這個院長那當然我們希望說現在面臨的問題當然缺藥的問題很嚴重那你認為像這樣的一個人事案你像缺藥的問題要多少時間讓他來做一些處理因為這個很重要啊"},{"start":124.65,"end":132.968,"text":"因為我覺得這個人事案這個流程已經走了。已經走完了。那你認不認同就是對他有沒有信心對莊昇宏"},{"start":135.131,"end":163.861,"text":"第一個尊重邱部長的選擇再來既然是一個團隊我們就要讓團隊整體往前走就彼此要能夠有默契要能夠很好的團隊觀念精神合作那你認為缺藥的問題應該在多少時間裡面就應該要把它解決掉你不要經常缺這個藥缺那個藥很多民眾他們到醫院去要這個藥也沒有要那個藥也沒有你說怎麼辦對不對這個是跟健康直接第一關係的"},{"start":165.507,"end":188.664,"text":"陳委員長你有什麼看法不管是輸液還是藥現在都有一些問題存在輸液我們現在已經從國外的進口專案進口也從國內其他小廠希望鼓勵他們生產另外就原來這個生產的大廠他能不能在短時間的回復這個都是未來衛福部食藥署要去工作的事情其實齁陳委員長你應該要交代他們"},{"start":190.138,"end":201.707,"text":"該給人家一點利潤還是要給問題就是你一直砍砍到人家不願意做嘛這個才是癥結點那不願意做你就缺藥問題癥結點是在這裡最嚴重的問題我認為你身為院長這個問題你要去要求一定要解決這個問題多少時間可以解決你告訴我"},{"start":211.648,"end":223.482,"text":"這個是相當專業的問題我想等到新的食藥署長上來之後我會跟部長跟他一起好好的研究現在遇到的這些問題我們真的誠實面對問題再提出一個"},{"start":226.82,"end":227.2,"text":"總院長我請教你"},{"start":244.468,"end":248.691,"text":"因為今天要跟你討論一些離岸風電短購的匯率與國產化問題。2024年經濟部主導離岸風電第三階段的區塊開發以出現0元的競標價格。經濟部說離岸風電20年短購絕無"},{"start":265.521,"end":275.639,"text":"多付9000億。既然如此,那就請經濟部告訴本席,離岸方店的短購會比競標價格政府要多付多少錢?"},{"start":277.31,"end":300.148,"text":"報告委員,這個准購費率剛開始的時候,因為我們完全沒有經驗,需要請開發商來,所以那個是參考國際間,尤其英國等等他的模式。一開始我們提供一個准購費率,接下去呢就變成自由市場競標,等到競標的時候,因為我們已經有第一期的這個示範的情況的結果之後,開發商有了信心,他自然就競價。"},{"start":300.708,"end":311.305,"text":"﹗"},{"start":312.506,"end":319.489,"text":"進一步這個離岸風電這個新聞稿寫到借短購價格打好產業的基礎,臨選機制帶動整個基礎的建設的一個建立,並引進國外技術建構國內產業發展離岸風電本土的供應鏈,並扶植我國產業進軍亞太市場。那2022年這個監察院調查報告指出大彰化"},{"start":340.517,"end":345.328,"text":"東南以及西南第一階段的離岸封建之水下的基礎"},{"start":350.233,"end":350.453,"text":"經濟部新聞稿"},{"start":379.722,"end":399.849,"text":"說這個國產化具有約束力並有罰則絕非柔性的要求那業者應於承諾年度如期如值達成國產化承諾的目標及封廠的建置若未如期履約則依履約保證金以及等購的匯率等嚴格違約來罰則"},{"start":401.65,"end":425.464,"text":"那機制的處理那本席當然支持說發展再生人員也支持離岸風電國產化但是離岸風電整個工程的進度嚴重的落後國產化也第一議期希望卓院長能夠明確的才是只要離岸風電無法達成國產化的目標就應該依比例檢討離岸風電能夠的電價"},{"start":429.468,"end":430.208,"text":"其實一開始他問題很多啦 為什麼"},{"start":453.427,"end":471.122,"text":"因為當初他有等於等過就是議價先議價七成後面的三成再來公開招標公開招標一度標多少兩塊兩毛二等過多少五塊八毛四等於是五塊八毛五幾乎啦"},{"start":472.022,"end":485.228,"text":"你看落差多大。結果我問全經濟部的部長沈榮金他跟我說因為要國產化實際上的國產化根本就很低啊幾乎都是半成民進來就摘下去啊"},{"start":489.163,"end":511.582,"text":"國產化其實還有相當的成就啦因為我們的國產化的範圍非常大我們並不是要求他技術移轉而是讓我們的在地供應鏈可以加入開發商的整個供應鏈未來這些開發商到國際間去做離岸風電的時候我們的供應鏈都可以跟著去目前已經有些實際的問題是你給他一度是五塊八碼五"},{"start":512.202,"end":537.939,"text":"那我們公開招標那時候是標2塊2毛2,落差太大。報告委員,實務上這些當時有標到滾購費率的業者,他也去參加公開競標,所以他的成本並不是表面上看到5塊8毛5跟2塊2,他其實他之間有一些財務上的調配,總而言之是政府跟開發商跟供應商跟在地供應業大家都多贏的結果,這是我們期待的一個目標。"},{"start":539.226,"end":560.835,"text":"民進黨的整個能源政策是國防的心意。裝睡的人是叫不醒。自以為感覺良好,其實連美國商會也都質疑民進黨的能源政策。尤其童子賢董事長日前的談及臺灣能源政策時表示綠能有間歇性發電的缺點。"},{"start":562.595,"end":578.734,"text":"那因攜手核能各佔臺灣發電比例百分之三十讓不排碳發電合計到百分之六十這是臺灣人員的黃金比例可以追上先進國家的水準那童子賢直言臺灣人員政策"},{"start":581.294,"end":606.93,"text":"不能改變的原因無非是原來的非核家園的口號來卡住了為了要適應那個口號就一切東西都要卡來卡去他說臺灣本來可以大舉進步就是因為把核能廢掉而力能又追不上原來設定的目標他希望談論人員政策時政治味道越淡越好"},{"start":608.872,"end":616.837,"text":"中信看待產業需求和民生的需求,本席支持綠能發展。臺電火力全開,臺灣2050淨零排蛋恐怕"},{"start":622.694,"end":645.288,"text":"我看是天荒夜談本席建議卓內閣賴政府盡速召開能源國是會議把所有真實數據全部都攤開來讓全民知道該滾動式調整能源結構就運用核能幫助達成2050年淨零排算的目標卓院長你有什麼看法"},{"start":646.207,"end":671.57,"text":"再跟委員報告非核家園我早上說過了它是在環境基本法23條裡面訂的政府應該訂定計畫這個不可以改嗎?現時核能也是立法的這個法現在是存在的而且是委員在想在場那個本來就可以改啊2002年就訂但現在是沒有改現在是沒有修沒有改所以這是一個現行的法律再來現在要經過社會有共識核能"},{"start":672.771,"end":700.213,"text":"發電達到百分之三十百分之三十應該是現在的社會共識還要很大的去努力能不能達到我都覺得不一定但是這是一個未來可以討論的也許新的核能技術有一天改變跟我們現在不知道的技術那是未來的事情所以我常說一句話未來的核能解決不了今天的問題其實你要達到2050年精靈排碳是天荒夜譚照你們現在的整個這個就是"},{"start":702.148,"end":707.458,"text":"整個電價整個電的那個操作方式真的關於學校這個"},{"start":710.423,"end":735.32,"text":"電價的補貼臺電表示要動漲政策不變但電會差額會改由各部會編列相關的預算不再由臺電來吸收臺大下長表示一旦漲電會對學校是嚴重的負擔影響經費教學研究的品質資深的服務那教育經費法定下限明定前三年度"},{"start":736.601,"end":765.272,"text":"決算稅入淨額平均值23%本席認為窮不能窮教育苦不能苦孩子本席已提出教育經費編列與管理法修正草案明訂電費補助款不要記錄教育經費的預算更讓更多教育經費用於學生的身上希望卓院長不要讓上場的電價吃掉學生的教育預算你有什麼看法"},{"start":767.088,"end":767.548,"text":"報告委員臺電長年以來"},{"start":792.435,"end":796.817,"text":"民進黨政府高估再生能源發展的速度又低估了AI用電需求的成長放棄便宜的核電不用用選擇一度三到四元更貴更髒的火力化電"},{"start":821.187,"end":834.375,"text":"那本席現在說的數據是臺電提供2023年燃氣發電的購電成本每度3.62元和能每度1.3元如果2023年臺電整個和能發電的電量跟2015年一樣351億度的話則可以減少使用天然氣發電少虧損400億這400億等同於113年"},{"start":851.024,"end":866.023,"text":"文化部300億的預算再加上未來要成立的百億癌症新藥的基金本席不反對發展再生人員2025年再生人員20%的目標已確定是跳票的"},{"start":867.765,"end":873.209,"text":"經濟部下修的占比目標是15.5%本來要2025年到20%但是現在下修到15.5%國際認可何能為綠電"},{"start":882.051,"end":896.147,"text":"整個國際能源總署強調世界需要核電來減少碳排放每日韓都大舉發展核電那難道民進黨的能源政策不需要做通販的檢討嗎?"},{"start":898.529,"end":923.64,"text":"我們這幾年來發展綠能所以很多世界的大廠包括設立資料中心他來臺灣設廠就是指定要用綠電如果我們沒有這幾年的發展這些大廠要來臺灣是不可能選擇的所以我們應該請委員一起支持我們還是要多元發展綠電我們還是要穩定供電大家都清清楚楚的啦為什麼現在經常很多地方都在跳電"},{"start":924.58,"end":940.327,"text":"那是因為電網韌性不好,我要求能夠縮短時間改變電網的韌性,改善電網的韌性。其實我認為政院缺電是有直接關係的啦。這個下次其他再...謝謝,謝謝林委員,謝謝總院長。下一位我們請黃國昌委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"154395","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154395","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68a1b79a24fef19f4b46cd03fb23edab3c9084592ae7b5b568bf8f891d2cf65ac865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"15:19:33 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15:51:19","影片長度":"00:31:46","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T15:19:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T15:51:19+08:00","duration":1906,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":194,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（15時20分）謝謝主席，請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：卓院長你好。今天是國會改革以後第一天總質詢嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我看你一大早進來就說今天是「以身試法」，我看你好像是說「嘗試」的「試」，其實應該是「合適」的「適」啦，「以身適法」，你本身就比較擅長協調啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是絕不是「以身觸法」啦！"],["張委員啓楷：不只不要觸法，而且現在不是「嘗試」的「試」，應該是來這邊做一個很合適的楷模、示範。事實上很簡單嘛，第一個，不要反質詢嘛；第二個，不要當木頭人，該知道的事情不要故意不回答，然後不要說謊話，就是不要做虛偽的陳述，很簡單嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我一向如此。"],["張委員啓楷：你今天已經經過一整天了，到目前很好嘛，對不對？今天一整天怎麼樣？感覺跟以前有不一樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：到目前為止都不錯。"],["張委員啓楷：還OK？"],["卓院長榮泰：到目前為止都不錯。"],["張委員啓楷：不只是以身「試法」，就是有「合適」的「適法」了！"],["卓院長榮泰：還可以。"],["張委員啓楷：來，我們從「以身適法」開始。我們來看一下這個，看圖說故事，好不好？來，我們來看這個圖。我們的雞蛋，去年欠很多，對不對？所以去年我們買進口的雞蛋買了一億五千多萬顆，後來當然有出現五千多萬顆蛋作廢的事情，可是這個產銷的方式是對的，因為蛋不夠，買進口蛋對嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：今年顛倒過來，今年反倒變成蛋太多了，對不對？先請問院長，今年要是再從國外進口蛋進來，對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然要很有計畫的去生產，而且要做調節的工作。那國外進口的蛋，它如果是慣例，我們可能把它做另外的使用，但是不要影響市場上的價格跟民生的需求。"],["張委員啓楷：政府的責任就是產銷要平衡嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：去年太少了，要加東西，所以從國外進來，今年國內生產太多了，應該減法嘛，所以我們剛剛講的答案就是不會從國外再進來了。可是，最近農業部中央畜產會做一個動作，它把去年的進口蛋當初做成液蛋還有滷蛋、茶葉蛋的，包括超思的巴西蛋，這個量我算過，不是一千萬顆，而是兩千兩百多萬顆放到市面上去，這個做法對嗎？已經太多了，部長稍等，請「以身適法」的院長先回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：我想農業部跟蛋商一定有相當的計畫跟用途才這樣做，這個如果沒有影響到市場上的價格跟民生的穩定……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，有影響喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以要進一步的來評估，這不是單從一個數字上來考慮的。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，有影響啊！上禮拜產地一斤是二十七塊五，這禮拜跌下去兩塊錢，而且已經快接近有史以來最低了，最低了喔，它當然是有衝擊啊！它當然是有衝擊啊！沒有、沒有，我做一個比較理性的呼籲，好不好？剛才民進黨的立委陳素月也在呼籲……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們現在趕快再幫我們的蛋農解決問題，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["張委員啓楷：我們來動動腦，想幾個方法，我們來想幾個方法。第一個，剛才好像部長有講了，我昨天質詢你之後，你現在不會再賣了？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們先……"],["張委員啓楷：先停下來，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我們先把它暫停，因為它現在是公告而已，公告的部分……"],["張委員啓楷：先停下，對，公告要停下來。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們先把它停下來。"],["張委員啓楷：我從2月份就開始追雞蛋了，只有最近這一、兩個月，你們從5月17號開始倒這個蛋出去，很多雞農是很抗議的，因為很多雞農他們也是支持你們民進黨的，先停下來，先停下來，你這個作法有點像落井下石，說實在的，他已經蛋就賣不出去，其實前幾天報紙是有報的，蛋已經多到有些──因為買飼料的錢還不夠，有些是拿去餵豬，因為要減少進到市面上的蛋的數量，結果你現在這邊還火上加油，他們實在很生氣，就像那句臺灣話說的「生雞卵的無，放雞屎的有」，這個很不好啦！人們會覺得政府應該多……我覺得部長平常評價還不錯，可是這個事情要趕快踩煞車。另外，我請你們答應一件事情，我現在發現不是只有這兩千兩百萬顆，對不對？後面還有去年買的還沒出來的加工蛋，做成液蛋、茶葉蛋、滷蛋的還有四千多萬顆，對不對？短時間都不能再賣了喔，不能再賣了，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們釋出一定會看市場的需求，如果國內的蛋供應市場的需求是夠的話，我們就不會釋出。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，你的意思就是如果過剩，你就不能再賣了，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：類似用庫存的概念，滾動倉儲的概念去處理。"],["張委員啓楷：對、對、對，白話文就是如果過剩就不能賣了，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這是簡單的數學問題嘛，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，我們來要求以民生穩定跟價格穩定來照顧大家，把這個當作唯一的標準。"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以我們現在第一個就是兩千多萬顆雖然公告了，今天很清清楚楚地跟我們全國民眾講：不會賣了，這是第一個。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，四千多萬顆原則上也不會賣了，除非到時候蛋不夠，好不好？好，那我們現在更進一步看怎麼來幫這些蛋農，目前蛋價就是一直在崩跌，就是剛才陳素月講的，那我們做一些事情啊！第一個，可不可以透過對國軍用雞蛋來加菜？這是不是一個方式？以前香蕉生產太多，那就買香蕉幫國軍來加菜啊！院長，我先跟你說，你知道這是誰的建議嗎？這是民進黨的鍾佳濱建議的，我覺得不分黨派，只要是幫人民解決問題的立委都是好立委，可以考慮一下這個事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個絕對是有助於穩定供需。"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，目前雞蛋每一天多出32萬顆，國軍如果有幫忙，這是一個方式，好不好？你們可以想一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在已經在執行了，那我們也可以做，像我每天都吃兩顆蛋。"],["張委員啓楷：大概在一個禮拜內做這個決定，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：已經在做了。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明，我們已經有行文給國軍還有一些相關的團膳業者。"],["張委員啓楷：你有跟他們聯絡是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：好，加油好不好？希望在一個禮拜內看到答案，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個就是剛才在講的，你現在對雞蛋就補助關稅嘛！因為現在飼料老實說真的是很貴，已經比雞蛋的價格更高了，所以我覺得你要考慮去做一部分的補貼，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們現在是分兩個部分，第一個部分，我們對進口飼料的營業稅已經減免到9月底，所以我們跟飼料公會在協商，希望能夠把這些降稅、免營業稅的部分回饋給生產端的雞農，對這個部分我們會先去處理。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你在一個禮拜內提出你的評估報告，跟我們講你們要怎麼做，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經隨時在跟他們溝通了。"],["張委員啓楷：這個要做。另外一個事情就是你昨天答應我的，這個你要馬上來做好不好？去年蛋太多，因為買了太多，對不對？你的方法是把它打成液蛋，因為打成液蛋之後可以保存1年，所以我就要問你了，你去年就知道蛋進口太多，所以你就做成液蛋，現在我們臺灣自己本土的蛋太多了，你為什麼都沒有想到趕快去收購一些進來，就先收購進來，一樣去做液蛋啊！跟去年一樣，去年蛋太多就做成液蛋，今年你去買了以後做成液蛋有兩個好處，第一個，你買了以後，市面上雞蛋的價格就上來了，我跟部長和院長講，如果你等一下宣布，我跟你保證明天雞蛋的價格就上來了。而且很重要的是，因為你做成液蛋，就可以用1年對不對？在明年還是以後如果真的有需要，就是所謂的產銷平衡了，你隨時蛋可以出去啊！好不好？可以做這個事情嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，就是到市場裡面去把蛋收進來以後變成一個滾動倉儲的部分，對那個時間點要掌握得好，因為你的時間如果是先做的時候，我們產業界的這些蛋農認為反正有人收，就不會去淘汰老母雞，他就讓雞每天下蛋給你收，所以這個時間點……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你101招都是只有淘汰老母雞，你要想一下辦法，你昨天是答應你們要評估這個事情。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我會評估，我是說要搭配著我們獎勵老母雞淘汰部分找一個適當的時間點去動手，而不是明天就去動手。"],["張委員啓楷：所以這個事情你會做？"],["陳部長駿季：對，那個時間點……"],["張委員啓楷：會做，可是要一點時間嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，是對那個時間點要掌握得住。"],["張委員啓楷：最晚差不多是什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我想我們在操作這個的時候，我們沒有辦法預告，如果預告的話，所有的蛋農就不淘汰老母雞了，所以我覺得時間點……"],["張委員啓楷：我再問你另外一件事情，還有一個辦法很重要，我們以前的雞蛋其實是有銷到新加坡、銷到香港，甚至連美國都銷了，現在雞蛋剩這麼多，農業部趕快去幫忙外銷，有沒有可能？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們對這個方面也在努力啦！然後有關於到市場裡面去收的那個滾動倉儲的部分，我們會視時間點進場。"],["張委員啓楷：來，部長，我再問你一件事情，我剛剛跟你講，你現在不是只有這兩千多萬顆，對不對？後續還有四千多萬顆不要再賣了，可能還出現一個問題，我來跟你討論一下，你那個蛋是包括去年超思進口的巴西蛋，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我看了你那個公告，中央畜產會裡面有這個公告，院長，你看右上角，現在這些雞蛋從5月17號開始標售，我剛剛講的，我們有結論了，這個時間點蛋已經太多，再標售已經是不對了，可是另外有一個大問題，他賣雞蛋的時間是要賣到什麼時候？今年12月27號，滷蛋是賣到什麼時候？明年6月24號。部長，來……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：我先跟你講，你先注意右上角，來，我再給你看下一張，去年超思的雞蛋最後進來，去年引起那麼多爭端的進口蛋，巴西蛋最後進來的有效期限就是9月，對不對？這個液蛋最多、最多可以放1年喔，它再怎麼撐、怎麼撐，撐到今年的9月27號應該也要到期了，對不對？你現在的蛋，你看看下面我寫的，你這個公告上面寫的，冷凍全蛋液跟滷蛋是什麼？是巴西蛋、土耳其、泰國、澳洲、美國等，你拿過期的蛋到市面上去賣喔？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個部分可能是委員的誤會，第一個部分，我們做加工的時候會根據……加工時的蛋一定不會過期才去加工，就是在效期之內就去加工了，加工後根據它加工的方法，它的產品會有不同的保存期限，這個保存期限一定是要符合相關的規定，因為每次加工的時候，它就會貼它的有效期限在那邊，不會說過期了還會賣。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，對啊！要過期的雞蛋……過期了，你就能銷毀了，五千多萬顆你已經銷毀了嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我一直逼你，你銷毀了嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：是，銷毀了。"],["張委員啓楷：現在快過期了，就是即期蛋，你把它做成蛋液嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：蛋液最長可以保存多久？"],["陳部長駿季：它要跟它的那個製造的……包括液蛋或是蛋粉，那個……"],["張委員啓楷：有可能超過1年？這個是……"],["陳部長駿季：這個我要確認。"],["張委員啓楷：這是專家跟全世界……標示最多就是1年，你要讓它變成化石液蛋，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，沒有，這個部分到底可以保存多久，會跟它的製程有關係，但是詳細的部分，我可能現在沒辦法回答你，我回去會去查。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，好，因為現在所有的專家都講說最多1年，你也是專家，所以我尊重你，你回去查，如果有超過1年……如果沒有到1年……"],["陳部長駿季：我可以保證我們釋出的時候絕對不會超過效期，如果說市場內的蛋是夠的話，我也絕對不會釋出，我一定會讓它報廢，我寧願報廢它也不會釋出而去影響到市場的蛋價。"],["張委員啓楷：我今天是提醒你，如果你再……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我會請部長很嚴肅地去看這件事情，一定站在民眾安全、食品安全這個條件上面，才做相關的加工跟釋出，如果違背了這個原則，我們寧願讓它就銷毀掉。"],["張委員啓楷：很好。部長，今天禮拜五，你下禮拜一跟我說，這個事情很緊急，對不對？你總不能賣過期的蛋讓人家吃到肚子，這個是健康的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們絕對會注意。"],["張委員啓楷：你回去後馬上去問，然後下禮拜一跟我講。"],["陳部長駿季：禮拜一我會馬上通知你。"],["張委員啓楷：其實我的質疑是非常清楚，第一個，大部分的專家都說液蛋只能放1年，你是專家，我尊重你，請你回去問。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，畜產會的公告清清楚楚的講你現在賣的是什麼東西，包括當時的巴西蛋，我跟你說巴西蛋到9月就已經到期了，好不好？你是打在一起的嘛，你查清楚喔，好不好？不要賣到過期的。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["張委員啓楷：我們繼續來看超思的問題，剛才說了那麼多，老實說，去年就是因為超思那時候買太多，銷毀完以後又有液蛋的問題衍生出來。到目前為止，我已經追超思……從2月份開始我已經好幾次質詢你，也索資了，這個案子很有可能就是我們國會調查的第一個案子，目前還有5個大問題，目前沒有合約，對不對？沒有實績，就是以前沒有經驗，第三，我跟你要證明，你到現在沒有給我，後面那兩個可能更嚴重。","關於這個事情，前年去日本買雞蛋的時候，日本那時候是疫區喔！所以就一直跟你講說，你是從日本什麼地方來的？你到現在也沒有給我資料，我要你的檢驗證明。你聽我說，我先問你一件事情，我們看下一張，你看這張圖，2023（去）年巴西蛋要進來，超思去買那麼多巴西蛋進來的時候，那時候開了招商會，還提了要有條件，你要符合這個條件，包括超思才能夠去買雞蛋，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：上面寫的公開召集的主持人是誰？是你嘛，對不對？部長，那時候你是副主委嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我召開會議。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！你2023年都要召開會議，前年一樣是超思，為什麼前年就不用開？這不是黑箱，什麼才是黑箱？我再問一次，部長，我先把問題問清楚，去年同樣是超思，同一個超思，去年超思去巴西買蛋的時候，你自己開了公開召集的會議招商，你還訂了4個條件，符合了才讓超思去買蛋，對不對？現在超思出了很多問題，現在很多人去告，現在北檢裡面還告了陳吉仲，還告了中央畜產會的前主委，可是你看那時候你還做了這個事情喔！你現在往前推，前年你去日本買蛋，沒有會議，所以當然也沒有條件，現在我問你，你說還沒有合約，這不是黑箱，什麼是黑箱？「花彔彔」啊！所以到目前為止，我沒有看到它該有的東西啊！"],["陳部長駿季：你可不可以給我1分鐘？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長回答。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們要講清楚111年跟112年，112年的時候，超思第一個有合約，合約是符合這個條件，當初會用合約的方式，是因為那時候全球疫情的嚴峻程度、缺蛋程度是需要透過合約去做預約的生產跟交貨，所以那時候用合約。但是111年的時候，它的情況是不一樣的，同樣是缺蛋，但是它缺蛋的壓力沒那麼大，所以那個時候我們農業部是針對畜產會給它補助，用例行的產銷調節，並沒有用專案會議去討論，在這個前提之下，每個禮拜大概是一櫃的雞蛋進來，它是為了我們那時候的消費物價本身有點蠢蠢欲動，我們希望配合穩定物價的政策，以適當的進口雞蛋來做彌補。所以那個時候，我們說要用合約也可以，或用買斷的方式，我們都會尊重，而超思是用買斷的方式；所以111年是用買斷，112年是合約，它們是不同年度的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在人民的疑問，為什麼會說浪費人民納稅錢、有沒有官商勾結？這間超思只有50萬，前年的9月5號成立，是它誕生的日期，隔了不到一、兩個月，中央畜產會就給它一個大訂單──一億八千多萬，這裡面已經充滿了疑問，又沒有合約，你剛剛說用買斷的，這裡面都有很多事情要查、要再追啦！這就是為什麼要成立調查聽證委員會，要去查的第一個案子，這是第一個。聽我講，那你也要有一個證明方式嘛！去年你說它以前進口都是日本蛋，問題是那時候它也沒有經驗啊！你為什麼要找它？這麼小的一個公司，50萬資本額的公司，老闆出1,000塊錢，成立以後一、兩個月，馬上接到中央畜產會一億七、八千萬的蛋的生意。然後我跟你要為什麼找它的相關資料，它沒有經驗，查出來並沒有經驗，對不對？沒有像去年有經驗嘛！前年沒有嘛！更離譜的，你跟我說日本那邊有人推薦，我跟你要證明，你到現在也沒有給我啊！"],["陳部長駿季：應該有吧？"],["張委員啓楷：至少有一個推薦書吧？部長，我再問你，更嚴重的問題其實還在後面，我從6月13號向你索資，我剛才說過是為了人民的健康啊！院長，這是站在人民的立場，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：那時候日本爆發了禽流感，我跟你要兩個東西，從13號向你索資，到現在你不給我，我問的問題很簡單欸！既然是禽流感爆發的地區，那是日本哪個地方來的蛋？一定要有檢疫報告嘛！你為什麼到現在不給我？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，這個東西其實在委員說明的時候，我回去就問了，而且查了，也看到了，就是說它在日本進口的時候是一個非疫生產區的，因為它是用府道縣市本身去做疫區的控管，所以我也確認那時候所進口的蛋並不是從疫區來的，防檢局在這個部分是有絕對的把關，至於沒有提供委員資料，我回去會去查，因為這個資訊是非常明確的，我在這邊可以確認。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你要讓我問很明確的東西……"],["陳部長駿季：對，一定跟你……"],["張委員啓楷：是從日本什麼地方來的？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我看過了。"],["張委員啓楷：日本那個時候發生了什麼？它們叫做縣道，是哪個縣道裡面發生了疫情是清清楚楚，第一，它有檢疫的報告。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以這個部分我們一定……"],["張委員啓楷：好，你回去查，你什麼時候可以給我？"],["陳部長駿季：還有一個我要跟委員說明的就是，我在111年的時候不可能去預測112年會有那麼大的缺蛋狀況，然後去圖利超思，先讓它做業績，然後112年再讓它去賺這個錢。因為我們在111年絕對不可能預測112年會有這麼大的缺蛋狀況，這個我想是我必須要澄清的。"],["張委員啓楷：問題就是裡面真的疑雲重重，你要證明它的話，第一個就要解釋為什麼……"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經請檢調單位在查了。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！沒關係，這個我們找時間……就是它要有進口經驗，現在沒有嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你說你要給我它的簡易報告和來源。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼時候可以給我？一個禮拜？"],["陳部長駿季：這個應該……"],["張委員啓楷：你應該有了吧。"],["陳部長駿季：應該下禮拜二、三就可以給你了。"],["張委員啓楷：好，OK！我們再看一個重點，你看看，為什麼會出現這麼多問題？第一個，亮采那時候去買雞蛋，它到4月份就到期了，對不對？超思是9月去買的嘛，對不對？我去調資料，8月的蛋到底誰去買的？你跟我講只有兩家去買，對不對？一個是亮采，一個是超思，8月這批雞蛋，你看清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：我看得非常清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：嗯。"],["張委員啓楷：雞蛋誰去買的？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們在新聞稿有提到了，就是整個從4月以後的一些進口，有一部分是亮采進來的，然後由超思去賣的，由超思提款，對畜產會來講，它看到蛋，因為是買斷的，買斷的話，看到蛋驗收，然後根據發票去付款，這個程序是完整的。至於亮采跟超思的商業關係，它是屬於私法人的關係，以我們農業部為督導的角度來看的話，我們也覺得有一些必須澄清的，所以我們移送給檢調單位，我們請檢調……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我知道，你說移送檢調，我希望檢調沒有蓋牌，我們會好好追、我們會好好追，所以你現在是沒有解釋，到底9月是誰進口進來的，還是沒有？什麼人進口的？超思嗎？但9月超思還沒有成立啊！8月的雞蛋到底誰買的？"],["陳部長駿季：它有一部分就是由亮采進來……"],["張委員啓楷：不是，那時候超思還沒有成立，超思9月才成立，你8月買蛋當然不是超思進口的，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：就是亮采啊！"],["張委員啓楷：是亮采嗎？亮采4月合約就到期了。"],["陳部長駿季：它後面都是用買斷的，我剛才說了，4月以後不管是超思或是亮采都是買斷的……"],["張委員啓楷：所以是亮采買的？"],["陳部長駿季：都是用買斷的方式。"],["張委員啓楷：所以是亮采去買斷？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，畜產會去買斷的部分，不是亮采買斷。"],["張委員啓楷：跟誰買？"],["陳部長駿季：畜產會買啊！"],["張委員啓楷：跟誰買？你購買雞蛋不是只跟兩家，一間是亮采、一間是超思？"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是亮采，我們跟亮采買。"],["張委員啓楷：你為什麼之前說它合約4月就到期了，它還有雞蛋？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這個是它3月跟4月有合約，4月以……"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，你看一下那個圖裡面更嚴重的，超思去買雞蛋，在前年10月份那時候日本爆發了禽流感，結果你看那個圖，院長也順便看一下，這個有多嚴重？日本爆發禽流感的時候，它撲殺了很多雞，所以它的雞蛋應該是變少的，然後雞蛋價格就飆漲，對不對？結果我們出現兩個非常不合理的，你看，我們在前年10月份的時候，超思去買雞蛋，一飛沖天買那麼多雞蛋，以前只有買214、153、172，一下子跳到240、604、543；而且第二個，你看右邊的價格更奇怪，價格已經飆升了，結果超思去買進來的雞蛋竟然那麼便宜，一個量太大這是問題，第二個，價格那麼便宜，這個我會進一步再去查，到底裡面是什麼？當然這個解答就是部長跟我講的，你到時候如果拿出來它的檢疫報告不是從那邊拿，這個解答就可以解開；那你如果再不給我的話，這裡面就充滿了疑問，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：這個必須要澄清，這個我必須要澄清……"],["張委員啓楷：我再問另外一個問題，因為時間關係，部長，你把……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這個部分本身，它這邊提到的，我們8月份買的時候還是在非疫區，我一定會請防檢局提供相關的檢疫證明，它的出口檢疫證明可以證實。第二個部分就是，後續超思去買的比較便宜這些，那是它跟日本產地的關係，相對的就是，你有預約生產跟沒有預約生產用現貨的部分，它本身是不一樣的價格，這個部分我們還是尊重貿易商自己的私人行為。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，看起來還是有很多疑點，第一個，我要的資料，你答應要給我的要趕快。第二，這個應該很有可能是國會調查委員會的第一案子，到時候我們在委員會好好查……"],["陳部長駿季：我們相關的資料其實檢調單位已經在查了。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啦！部長，我知道那是前朝的事情，是陳吉仲的事情，你好好查清楚……"],["陳部長駿季：111年的部分也在做調查……"],["張委員啓楷：部長謝謝！接下來我要問麥寮的事情，你請回。院長，我先問你一下，昨天有17個團體北、中、南串聯去行政院門口陳情抗議，說麥寮電廠怎麼可以再延役啊？因為它跟台電簽的這個約5月31日就停止了，他們要求兩個東西，第一個，什麼延約的、怎麼訂新的契約或者是延長的？他們要求黑箱的合約要公開。","第二個更重要的，他們就問你，台電這個契約裡面清清楚楚，到了5月31號就要停，而且已經燒了25年的煤炭了，政府的責任、政府的國策就是減碳，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：結果你還一直讓它燒，他們就很生氣啊，他們有陳情書，你有接到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道委員所提的這個事情，重點來看，就是它合約期間已到，但是合約的發電量，因為配合當地縣政府生煤減碳的這個要求，降低了發電量，所以它合約的發電量還沒到，所以跟經濟部、跟台電有這樣的協調。"],["張委員啓楷：所以院長，合約你看到的跟我看到的不一樣，你看到契約，我看到人民，對於那些人民來講，不是只有雲林，我住嘉義，從雲林、嘉義、臺南到高雄，往北走是彰化、南投跟臺中，他們都認為麥寮……你知道麥寮電廠是臺灣第幾大污染源嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以經濟部跟他們進行協商……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我先問你，你知道全臺灣最大的污染源是哪裡嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：污染源很多……"],["張委員啓楷：臺中……"],["卓院長榮泰：有移動的污染源，有工業的污染源，有外來的污染源，都有。"],["張委員啓楷：台中火力發電廠。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，那個大家都知道，所以儘量用天然氣取代它。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個我想你也知道，看一下，第二個就是麥寮電廠，這麼大的污染源不是只有雲林人忍受，嘉義人、臺南人、彰化人、臺中人也忍受25年。他看到那個合約上面寫得清清楚楚，5月31號就是要停，結果你們現在看到廠商的這個……另外你還沒看到一個很重要的，不是只有合約的內容，這跟你的國策是不一樣的，你要減碳，結果你現在繼續燒煤炭，對不對？第三個更重要，你有看到人民的健康嗎？有沒有看到人民的健康？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，當然有。"],["張委員啓楷：有，對不對？所以剛才說到雞蛋，我們要照顧蛋農。院長，今天我們要做一個很好的示範。"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部、台電有跟電廠協調如何進行，未來選擇最好的方式。"],["陳次長正祺：25年前簽這個合約就是兩個條件，一個是發電量，一個是期間，要滿足它投資的成本。現在我們跟台塑公司重新談判、協商、修約，到明年年底不再續約，即使發電量沒發完也不再續了，這個是我們……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有要等你到明年，人民哪有要等你到明年？我們已經忍受25年，明明跟你的國家政策不一樣，對人民的健康又有傷害，院長，你為什麼不能停？而且你一直講電是夠的，對不對？電都夠了，為什麼要讓麥寮電廠──全臺灣第二大污染源繼續傷害人民？"],["卓院長榮泰：在整個發電系統的發電量當中，原來電廠的發電量都算在現在的供需當中。"],["張委員啓楷：你是說假如缺少麥寮電就不夠？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會比較安全、穩定地供電。"],["張委員啓楷：你不能夠這樣，你不是一直說電夠嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：夠。"],["張委員啓楷：你一直講電夠了，現在……等一下，這個很重要，院長，你一直強調電是夠的，但是你剛才回答的意思是麥寮電廠要繼續燒煤電才夠。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是整體規劃，台電的整個發電系統評估它的量，是這樣在評估……"],["張委員啓楷：這個叫用肺去發電。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，這樣講不好。"],["張委員啓楷：用肺去發電。"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣講不好。"],["張委員啓楷：兩個部分，你一直說電夠，這是一個。第二個，減碳不要再燒煤是你們政府的政策，結果現在繼續燒。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我要兩個東西，好不好？第一個，陳情的團體跟民眾很清楚要合約，對不對？而且裡面有一個很嚴重的問題，我先跟你講一下，你要延役，雲林縣政府要給燃煤的許可證，對不對？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["張委員啓楷：到目前為止都沒有給，雲林縣政府到現在都還沒給你燃煤的許可證書，你為什麼簽一個可能違法的合約？"],["陳次長正祺：第一個，站在經濟部的立場，台電公司25年前簽的約我們要尊重，當時的合約並沒有明確講以期間為主或者以發電量為主，所以我們現在比較……"],["張委員啓楷：次長，不好意思，你一直……"],["陳次長正祺：改進的作法就是……"],["張委員啓楷：次長，不好意思……"],["陳次長正祺：第二個……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在一直繞在發電，我跟你講一下，我已經查過了，你們的同仁都給我，台電都給我了，裡面沒有說保證要發多少的電量，這是第一個。我再講一次，目前我掌握的資料沒有這個事情。好，更嚴重的是我剛才講的，人民的健康，而且人民看得很清楚，合約的一個重點就是到今年5月31日。"],["陳次長正祺：我們現在跟它講……"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼不停下來？"],["陳次長正祺：明年……"],["張委員啓楷：好，沒關係。我們一樣，我們都尊重專業，把合約拿出來……"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我們把合約拿出來攤給大家看，好不好？"],["陳次長正祺：台電……"],["張委員啓楷：看裡面有沒有剛剛講的容量要增加這個事情，好不好？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，更嚴重的是像我剛剛講的，雲林縣政府如果沒有允許你，你怎麼去簽一個可能沒辦法落實的合約？這是個違法的合約。第三個更重要，院長……"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：人在公門好修行，你如果認為麥寮電廠──全臺灣第二大污染源會有問題，我覺得你應該出面踩煞車。"],["卓院長榮泰：除了檢查合約，我希望能夠跟地方政府好好溝通，跟民眾也能夠好好溝通，大家再取一個最平衡的點來處理這個事情。"],["張委員啓楷：縣政府到現在都沒要給你。"],["陳次長正祺：沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：不，現在你前後顛倒了，你應該先跟縣政府拿到許可以後再簽這個約。好，我們看最後一張。院長，你注意這件事情，那天你來拜會的時候，我就跟你講了，對不對？你堅持核三廠是要廢的，你有看到嗎？現在核三廠附近的四個鄉鎮都支持要延役，你看人家支持要嘛，那你偏偏不給嘛，對不對？麥寮人家不要嘛，你偏偏要給人家，你會不會永遠都是跟人民對著？院長，我要提醒一點……"],["卓院長榮泰：核三廠是依照核管法的規定，而這個是民間的契約啊，我還是願意說我們站在人民的立場好好來考慮。"],["張委員啓楷：你看一下，你知道核電一度電多少錢？1.12塊嘛，你知道嗎？你剛剛講的麥寮那個電多少？4.12塊，差不多四倍，你現在沒有污染的不用，你要用污染的；便宜的你不用，你要用貴四倍的。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果算上核廢料的無法處理，這個不能用量計。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！院長，人在公門好修行。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["張委員啓楷：我們今天「以身適法」，我們很理性討論。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：現在電的問題，讓人民不要缺電，產業一樣需要非常多的電。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們安全穩定供電為最優先。"],["張委員啓楷：現在核能是全世界的趨勢，能不能腦袋不要停留在二十世紀，好不好？往前走，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，休息5分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢。現在休息。","休息（15時51分）","繼續開會（15時56分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴士葆","蘇清泉","顏寬恒","馬文君","謝衣鳯","丁學忠","郭昱晴","陳素月","黃秀芳","蔡其昌","張啓楷","林德福","黃國昌"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002","1136401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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d":664.21,"text":"對阿,阿你過期要過期的結論"},{"start":689.343,"end":690.084,"text":"但你想怎樣保存老古?"},{"start":698.988,"end":719.285,"text":"他要跟他的那個那個製造的包括你液氮或是氮粉啊那個我可能超過10年這個是自己專家跟這個專家跟全世界最多標示的10年你要變成化石液液氮是不是沒有這個部分到底可以保存多久會跟他的製程有關但是詳細的我可能現在沒辦法回答你我回去會去查OKOK好"},{"start":720.706,"end":742.701,"text":"因為現在所有的專家都講說最多一年了,我也是專家所以我尊重你,你回去查如果有超過一年。我可以保證我們絕對釋出的時候絕對不會超過效期,那如果說室內的蛋如果是夠的話我絕對也不會釋出,我一定會讓它報廢,我寧願報廢也不會釋出,去影響到我們市場的一個蛋價。"},{"start":744.802,"end":762.837,"text":"我會請部長很嚴肅的去看這件事情,這個一定站在民眾安全、食品安全的這個條件上面,才做相關的加工跟釋出。如果違背了這個原則,我們寧願讓他就銷毀掉。好,那個部長,你明天下班前,今天拜我齁。"},{"start":763.717,"end":789.81,"text":"你下禮拜告訴我,這個事情很緊急,對不對?你總不能賣那個過期的蛋吃到肚子,這是健康的問題,好不好?你下禮拜拜告訴我,你到底有...其實我的質疑是非常清楚,第一台北的專家都說,蛋液只能放一年,因為你專家我尊重你,他回去問,第二,你續產會的公告清清楚楚講你現在賣的是什麼東西?包括..."},{"start":791.345,"end":818.052,"text":"當時的巴西彈。巴西彈我告訴你,到九月就一直停了。好不好?你是打在一起的嘛。OK,你查到情緒了嗎?好不好?不要賣到過期的。好不好?好來,我們繼續就來看超市的問題。剛才說到那一階段,就是因為你超市那時候買太多,銷毀完你又有液彈的問題才引申出來。超市到目前為止,我已經從2月份開始好幾次質詢你也所知了嘛。這個案子很有可能就是我們國會,國會調查的第一個案子。"},{"start":819.365,"end":843.91,"text":"國會調查的第一個案子目前還有五個大問題目前沒有合約對不對沒有時機就是沒有以前沒有經驗了第三我要證明你到現在沒有給我後面那兩個可能更嚴重這個事情我們去日本前年去買雞蛋的時候日本那時候是E區喔所以一直跟你講說你從日本什麼地方來你到現在還沒給我我要你檢驗證明你聽我說來來來我先問你一個事情來我們看下一張來你看這張圖來"},{"start":850.25,"end":851.85,"text":"你2023年都要召開會議。你是哪?"},{"start":879.574,"end":900.574,"text":"市長你昨年同樣是超市,是怎樣?今年就不用開?這不是黑箱,什麼才是黑箱?我再問一次,我問一次。市長我先把問題問清楚。你去年同樣是超市,同一個超市。今年為超市去巴西買農的時候,你自己開了公開召集的會議,召商。你還訂了"},{"start":902.054,"end":929.59,"text":"四個條件符合財政超知金買單,對不對?雖然超知出了很多問題,現在很多人去告。現在北檢裡面還告了陳吉仲,還告了中央續產會的前書委。可是你看那時候你還做了這個事情,你現在往前推,前年你再一次買兩個,沒有會議。所以當然也沒有條件。現在我問你,你說還沒有合約,是不是黑箱什麼是黑箱?回落落啊。所以到目前為止為止我沒有看到他該有的東西啊。"},{"start":930.473,"end":946.12,"text":"可以給我1分鐘嗎?我跟委員說明,112年,我們要講清楚112年的時候,超市第一個有合約,那合約是符合這個條件,那當初會用合約的方式是因為那時候全球的一個疫情"},{"start":946.82,"end":946.84,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":965.774,"end":965.794,"text":"﹚張啓楷"},{"start":984.776,"end":987.737,"text":"現在人民的疑問為什麼會講說有沒有納匯人民納稅錢有沒有關上過節嗎?這間超市不知道辦"},{"start":1013.194,"end":1022.641,"text":"前年的9月5日成立誕生的日期,隔了不到1、2個月,你就給他一個大訂單,中央市長會就給他一個大訂單,"},{"start":1025.669,"end":1047.057,"text":"這裡面已經充滿了疑問你又沒有合約你剛講說用買斷這裡面都有很多事情要查要再追啦這就是為什麼要成立調查聽證委員會要去查第一個案子這是第一點聽我講那我也跟你那你有個證明方式嘛你就說李祖古你以後他以前進國都巴西蛋啊進國都日本蛋啊問題是那時候他也沒有經驗嗎你為什麼要找他這麼小的一個公司50億欸50萬資本額的公司老闆出1000塊錢"},{"start":1053.647,"end":1082.134,"text":"馬上成立後一兩個月,叫你中央市長會,七百千億的這個蛋的這個生意。然後我跟你要,他的,為什麼你要找他?他沒有經驗,查出來沒有經驗,對不對?沒有像去年時候有經驗嘛,前年沒有嘛。更離譜的,我告訴你,你告訴我一部分那邊有人推薦,我跟你要證明,你到現在也沒有給我啊。應該有吧。至少一個推薦書吧。來,保證我再問你,比較嚴重的其實是要在後面,來來來。我從6月13日去你所知啊,我剛才講過,為了人民的健康啊。"},{"start":1083.254,"end":1090.301,"text":"這是站在人民的立場。那時候日本爆發了禽流感。我問你很簡單,既然是禽流感爆發的地區,日本兩個地方來的蛋啊,一定要檢疫報告嘛。"},{"start":1105.049,"end":1133.888,"text":"你為什麼到現在不給我我跟委員說明齁這個東西其實委員在說明的時候我回去就問了而且查了也看到了就是說他在日本進口的時候他是一個非疫生產區因為他是用輔導縣市本身去做疫區的控管所以我也確認說那時候所進口的蛋並不是從非疫區來的那防檢局在這個部分是有絕對的把關那至於說沒有提供委員我回去會去查"},{"start":1134.648,"end":1142.136,"text":"因為這個資訊是非常明確的。我在這邊可以確認。對,所以你要給他們很明確的名字。對,一定會跟你...對,我看過了。因為日本那個時候發生了什麼...他們叫做縣道嘛,那個縣道裡面發生了疫情。他有檢疫的報告嘛。對,所以這個部分我想我們一定..."},{"start":1152.087,"end":1166.702,"text":"還有一個我要跟委員說明就是說我在111年的時候我不可能去預測說112年會有那麼大的缺氮然後會去圖利超市先讓他做業績然後112年再去讓他去賺這個錢因為我們在112年絕對不可能預測112會有這麼大的缺氮這個我想我必須要澄清的"},{"start":1173.018,"end":1173.198,"text":"為什麼會出現這麼多問題?"},{"start":1203.697,"end":1221.432,"text":"他到4月份就到齊了對不對?他超市是到外去買的嘛對不對?我去調資料,你背後的資料到底是誰去買的?你跟我講只有兩家去買對不對?一個量財一個超市,啊背後這杯芥朗你看清楚我看得非常清楚 對不對?芥朗什麼人買?"},{"start":1223.366,"end":1235.783,"text":"我跟委員說明我們在新聞稿也提到了就是說在整個從4月以後的一些進口有一部分是量財它進來的然後由超市去賣的由超市提款對續產會來講"},{"start":1238.046,"end":1239.167,"text":"所以你現在是沒有解釋那到底9月是誰進來還是沒有?"},{"start":1266.405,"end":1268.445,"text":"三、四月以後的不管是超市或量貸都是買斷的,都是用買斷的方式。"},{"start":1295.509,"end":1323.25,"text":"所以是量財去買斷?對,我們沒有,序長會去買斷的部分,不是量財買斷。是誰買?是序長會買啊。是跟誰買?就是只要有人...你買要多少不是兩斤,一斤量財,一斤超市啊。對,就是量財,就是量財,我們跟量財買。跟量財買,啊你為什麼之前說他4月就到期啊,他要有多少?沒有,這個就是說,他是3月跟4月有合約,4月以後...部長這個我們再好好查,另外一個更嚴重的,我告訴你,你看一下那個圖裡面,更嚴重的。"},{"start":1324.571,"end":1351.485,"text":"超市去買雞蛋阿在前年的10月份的時候日本那時候爆發了10月份的時候爆發了禽流感結果你看那個圖院長你順便看一下這個有沒有多嚴重日本發生禽流感的時候他扑殺了很多雞所以他的雞蛋是應該是變少然後雞蛋價格就飆漲嘛對不對結果我們出現兩個非常不合理的你看我們在前年的10月份的時候超市去買雞蛋"},{"start":1353.783,"end":1359.25,"text":"一飛沖天買這麼多,你看以前只有買214、153、172,一到一跳到240、604、543而且第二個你看右邊的價格也是很奇怪,價格已經飆升了結果超市去買一百多兩下就收"},{"start":1371.394,"end":1371.974,"text":"我這個必須要澄清"},{"start":1391.94,"end":1420.449,"text":"沒有 這個部分本身就是說他這邊提到的我們8月份買的時候還是在飛魚區這個是我一定會請房檢局提供這個相關的一個檢疫證明他的出口的檢疫證明可以證實那第二個部分就是後續的這些超市去買的比較便宜那是他跟日本產地的關係那相對的就是說你有預約生產跟沒有預約生產用現貨的部分他本身是不一樣的一個價格那這個部分我們還是尊重"},{"start":1421.129,"end":1440.782,"text":"就是貿易商自己的私人行為我一定看起來還是很多疑點第一個我要的資料你要答應給我的要趕快這個應該是很有可能就是國會調查委員的第一個案子到時候我們再委員會調查我們相關的資料其實檢調單位已經在查了我講這前朝疫情的事情陳吉仲的事情111年的部分也在做檢調調查我接下來要問那個賣料的事情你請回來經濟部因為我先問你一件事收集"},{"start":1450.956,"end":1476.239,"text":"有很多團體17個團體北中南喔串聯去行政院門口陳情抗議阿說那個賣了電廠怎麼可以再研議阿因為他跟台電簽了這個約沒辦法一直停下嘛他們要求兩個東西第一個什麼原約的什麼訂了新的這個契約或者是延長的他們要求黑箱的合約要公開第二更重要的"},{"start":1478.325,"end":1493.56,"text":"人民、政府、台電這個一頓夜裡面清清楚楚,到了5月30日就要停啊。而且已經燒了25年的煤炭了。政府的責任、政府的國策就是減碳嘛,對不對?結果你這還讓他燒,他們就很生氣啊。他們有陳情書啊,你有接到嗎?"},{"start":1494.482,"end":1522.571,"text":"我知道委員所提的這個事情這重點來看就是他期間已到合約期間但是合約的發電量因為配合當地縣政府生煤減碳的這個要求降低了發電量所以他合約的發電量還沒到所以跟經濟部跟台電有這樣的協調所以議長合約你看到我今天看不一樣你看到企業我看到人民對那些人民來講他們不是只有婚姻而已我帶自己婚姻、家庭、台南、到高雄"},{"start":1523.527,"end":1537.297,"text":"我們北州、彰化、南投跟台中,他們都認為賣了那個,你知道賣了那個電廠是台灣第幾大污染源嗎?所以經濟部跟他們進行再協商之後?一定我先問你一下,你知道台灣最大污染源是哪裡?全台灣最大的污染源。"},{"start":1546.481,"end":1570.22,"text":"臺中火力發電廠,這個大家都知道,所以盡量再用天然氣來取代他。第二個看一下,第二個就是賣料。結果這麼大的一個污染源,不是只有雲林人,嘉義人、台南人、中華人、台中人,人數15年,他看到那個合約上面寫的清清楚楚,5月31號就是要停啊。"},{"start":1571.633,"end":1574.494,"text":"今天我們要做一個很好示範經濟部台電有跟電廠來做協調如何進行未來選擇一個最好的方式"},{"start":1601.738,"end":1630.831,"text":"發言委員因為當時25年簽這個約喔當時就是兩個條件一個是發電量一個是期間要滿足他投資的成本那現在我們跟財經公司同心談判協商修約到明年年底不再續約即使發電量沒發完也不再續了這個是文法阿就已經忍受了25年然後明明跟你的國策又國家政策又不一樣然後對人民的健康又有傷害"},{"start":1631.619,"end":1631.743,"text":"已定"},{"start":1633.615,"end":1661.522,"text":"你為什麼不能停?而且你一直在講喔你電是有夠的對不對?你電都夠了你為什麼要讓麥寮電廠全團電汙染呢?積極傷害我們人民呢?在整個發電的系統發電量當中這個原來的這個電廠的發電量都算在現在的供需當中啦。你是說如果站麥寮你電就沒夠?我們會比較安全穩定的供電。你不能夠這樣你不是一直講電有夠啦你一直講電有夠啦那你現在...等一下等一下這個很重要一定一定"},{"start":1662.401,"end":1677.687,"text":"你一直強調電是過的,你現在剛才回答的意思就是要不要繼續燒煤,電才過?我們是整體的規劃,台電的整個發電系統它的評估它的量是這樣在評估整個規劃。這個叫以用廢氣發電嗎?不是不是,這樣講不好。一定要說你電有夠嗎?這是一個嘛,第二,減碳不要再燒煤是你的政策啊。"},{"start":1687.258,"end":1714.998,"text":"你們政府的政策阿結果你現在繼續燒阿我要兩個東西好不好第一個陳情的團體跟民眾很清楚要合約嘛對不對而且裡面有一個很嚴重的問題我要先跟你講一下你要研議那要引領縣政府要有燃煤的許可證對不對到目前為止都沒有給喔婚姻管境戶到現在還沒給你這個燃煤的許可證書"},{"start":1717.298,"end":1736.989,"text":"你為什麼今天簽一個簽一個可能合法的約?報告委員這第一個喔政府跟這台電公司在經濟部立場當時25年簽的約我們要尊重喔那當時的約並沒有明確的講說以期間為主或是以發電量為主所以我們現在的的比較比較這個經濟重瓦就是你現在一直罩在那個罩在那個發電量我告訴你"},{"start":1743.308,"end":1767.346,"text":"我已經去查過了,包括你們的同仁都給我,台電都給我嘛,裡面沒有說要保證說要發多少的電量,這是低劣。我再講一次喔,目前我掌握的資料沒有這個事情。第一個好,更嚴重的對我剛才講,人民的健康嘛,而且人民看到的就清楚,你的合約裡面一個重點是到今年的5月30日嘛,那為什麼不停下來,好沒關係,來來來,好來,我們一樣嘛齁,我們都尊重專業啦,把合約拿出來。"},{"start":1772.25,"end":1798.172,"text":"報告委員 把合約拿出來我們給大家看嘛好不好 看裡面有沒有剛講的有沒有剛講的這個容量要增加這個事情好不好 報告委員 啊第二個還要嚴重的還要嚴重的其實我剛才說的 婚姻管政府如果沒有允許你你怎麼去簽一個可能沒辦法落實的合約這是個違法的合約啊 其實第三方更重要啦 硬定 人在公文好修行你若認為麥寮電廠這個全台灣第二大的"},{"start":1800.404,"end":1801.504,"text":"你堅持河山廠是要廢的嗎?你有看到嗎?"},{"start":1827.52,"end":1849.691,"text":"你現在河山廠附近的四個鄉鎮都支持要研議結果你看人家支持要嘛然後你偏偏不給嘛對不對阿賣寮人家不要嘛你偏偏要給人家你是跟人民會不會是一點都是對著河山廠是依照河管法的規定阿這個是民間的契約阿我們兩個我還是願意說我們站在那裡好好地來考慮"},{"start":1878.866,"end":1879.206,"text":"好,謝謝好"},{"start":1897.486,"end":1903.911,"text":"謝謝張委員。謝謝卓院長。報告院會休息五分鐘,休息之後我們繼續進行質詢。"}]}},{"id":"154393","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154393","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68a6b44bc35f5ac576a6cd03fb23edab3c9372f66133cb86ba2cb66546e995582555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"14:30:31 - 14:46:37","影片長度":"00:16:06","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T14:30:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T14:46:37+08:00","duration":966,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（14時30分）感謝大會主席、各部會首長。邀請院長、經濟部部長及農業部部長。"],["主席：請院長還有兩位部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：丁委員好。祝福你，天天快樂。"],["丁委員學忠：謝謝，院長好。感謝院長及兩位部長這段時間的辛苦，我常常看到電視轉播，看到院長針對各委員對地方事務需求的因應，院長都有很正面的回應。"],["卓院長榮泰：應該的。"],["丁委員學忠：我在這裡也要跟院長及兩位部長討論我們雲林縣的一些問題，也希望行政院、農業部及經濟部可以協助我們。第一個，雲林沿海地區因為地層下陷，有些地區甚至低於海平面，地勢比較低，造成海水倒灌或是下大雨時，排水系統如果是過去施作的，到現在功能性比較不足，常常造成淹水或海水倒灌的問題，現在地方政府的統籌分配款金額還沒有辦法針對這些問題來一一改善，希望院長及經濟部長針對治水的部分可以協助我們一下。","現在要請院長跟兩位部長來看天文潮淹水的影片。","（播放影片）"],["丁委員學忠：我們剛才看的這部影片是去年8月萡子寮漁港因為地層下陷的問題，又遇到天文潮，海水倒灌，差不多淹到2公里遠，我們當時去現場看，漁船比路面還高，天文潮非常嚴重，附近的養殖業都造成非常大的損失。當初陳建仁院長也有去現場會勘瞭解災情，他也特別提到中央會全力支持地方解決問題，希望卓院長可以延續陳建仁前院長對地方的承諾，幫助地方共同來解決水患的問題。剛才我們說到颱風跟異常大潮造成去年的災情，現在又已經6月了，颱風季馬上要到了，接下來8月又會出現大潮，當地民眾都很緊張，目前緊急要做的工作就是要規劃長期改善的方案，另外疏濬工程也要同時一起進行，不要影響到漁民的出入，希望中央針對改善漁港的經費可以趕快支持我們，讓我們民眾不要再因為水患而緊張，是不是能夠請院長來協助我們？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。報告委員，我知道萡子寮這個地方陳前院長有去過現場，所以他也很清楚在這個地方大家生活上跟一些工作上的不順、不方便，因此漁業署已經有初步進行對於萡子寮漁港的工作，未來還有編列很多預算要來進行。是不是請部長跟委員說明？"],["丁委員學忠：好，請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：感謝委員對雲林一些漁港的關心，因為地層下陷以後，我們現在有在進行兩項工作，第一個就是有關碼頭加高的部分，第二個部分就是疏濬的部分，疏濬的部分今年已經編列兩千四百多萬，所以會全力支持；另外，在漁港的建設工程，我們過去5年已經補助兩億兩千多萬，所以這個部分我們一定會全力來協助。"],["丁委員學忠：好，感謝部長，希望能夠早日完成。有關海砂一直聚集在港口的這個問題，是長久以來的問題，我們漁民要出海、要出去捕魚，過去直接出海出去很快，現在還要繞那個航道出去，可能要多浪費幾個鐘頭的時間，所以這個部分是不是可以拜託部長順便討論一下？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我們會跟海委會這邊來討論，出港以後會因為海風的關係，有一些沙子會阻擋到漁港出口，這部分我們來想辦法看怎麼處理。"],["丁委員學忠：好，感謝部長。","第二項是針對我們各鄉鎮的水利建設，有關這個水利問題，我們雲林縣政府有很多應急工程，在我的選區海線這邊，因為我們濁水溪跟北港溪流域的區域所需要的排水系統很多，地形又以平原比較多，最近這幾年極端氣候，動不動就下急雨、下暴雨，你看現在外面一直打雷，就是又要下急雨了。今年水利署也已經發布很多次對於雲林縣海線鄉鎮的淹水警戒區，我們為了要解決這個問題，各地的排水跟疏濬都很需要儘快來處理。舉例來說，在我們虎尾、北港區域內有很多重要的排水系統，這都需要儘快來解決。我們虎尾最主要是有一條三合大排，過去那邊都是田地，但是現在房子蓋很多，變成田地沒辦法幫忙紓解雨水，造成老舊的排水溝現在因為水量多，排水的速度就比較慢，常常造成我們新吉里整村淹水，這都差不多是二十幾年的工程了。另外，我們北港新街大排關係到北港重要的排水系統，北港朝天宮前面這條中山路，只要下急雨，整個積水就會很嚴重。像這些種種問題很多都需要應急、需要解決方式，希望經濟部可以多編一些預算，針對我們這些易淹區或急於改善的排水系統部分，能夠有充足的經費。也要拜託卓院長是不是可以編列多一點的治水經費，讓我們雲林縣可以來解決這些長久的問題，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。報告委員，治水的問題一直是政府長期以來很重視的工作，我們好幾年來也編列很多相關預算來進行。關於這個地方的圳路改善工程總共有31件，重劃區的農路改善也有26件，這些都照優先順序要來進行。剛才委員所提個案排水的部分，請經濟部來說明。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，我們這個前瞻計畫已經報行政院了，現在行政院在審查……"],["丁委員學忠：前瞻計畫不是今年就結束了？"],["陳次長正祺：是，明年開始會再延4年。"],["丁委員學忠：會延續啦！"],["陳次長正祺：雲林縣是我們看起來必須要優先處理的地方，所以這個前瞻計畫一定會在雲林縣……"],["丁委員學忠：當然啦！跟次長拜託，縣政府爭取的配額當然不能減少，我們這些立委當然有我們選民的壓力，有很多緊急的部分，縣政府都排不到，我們這些立委也是要來幫忙，讓我們有為民服務的機會，意思就是額外的經費讓我們幫助選民解決問題，再拜託你們！","再來就是農作物的問題，我現在也要向農業部長報告，昨天針對公糧價格調整，你竟然說不支持，讓我跟很多農民都非常失望，希望部長可以針對公糧收購價格再三思一下！","我在這裡也要向部長說，農業部就是要保障我們農民的權利，但是對農民來說，辛苦耕作卻得不到比較好的價錢，很多關於耕作的保障、農民的保障向農業部爭取，也沒有得到相當正面的回應，本席過去沒有參與到，現在參與到了，所以我要積極來爭取我們雲林縣農民的權利。","之前3月左右，我就有一直跟部長強調大蒜的問題、蒜頭的問題，也曾經問過農業部，我收到消息有大量進口蒜頭進來而壓低本土蒜頭的價錢，那個時候我們有談到阿根廷、西班牙、埃及的蒜頭，請問我們目前有從哪幾個國家進口蒜頭？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，誠如委員所說，現在進口蒜頭應該是以阿根廷為主，埃及的部分是為輔，因為不同的月份，這個部分我們一定會保障我們蒜農的生產，所以進口的時間會跟我們生產的時間、我們賣的時間錯開。"],["丁委員學忠：所以我在這裡還是再提醒部長一下，阿根廷蒜頭進口的時間是我們臺灣缺蒜頭的時間。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["丁委員學忠：而埃及進口的時間剛好是我們臺灣蒜頭出產的時間，這樣是不是埃及的蒜頭會打壓到我們臺灣本土蒜頭的價格？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我知道。"],["丁委員學忠：在我們基層，盤商去跟蒜農收蒜頭時都說：價錢是23、24，你要不要？如果不要，6月的蒜頭就進來了，6月的蒜頭就進來了是什麼蒜頭？就是埃及的蒜頭！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["丁委員學忠：就是這樣打壓到我們本土蒜頭的價錢，這是我們在基層所瞭解的。所以在這裡要拜託部長，因為我剩3分鐘的時間，我把這部分講完。我在這裡要拜託部長，因為WTO關稅配額三千多噸就是國際貿易赤字，這是我們一定要履行的部分，我們針對高關稅的蒜頭是不是可以降低數量？尤其是阿根廷的蒜頭，它的出產期和我們臺灣的出產期是一模一樣的時間，所以它進來明顯打壓到我們本身的蒜頭，如果有辦法的話，就是暫緩到6至7月、7月以後或7、8月左右，等我們臺灣的蒜頭用完了，要開始吃進口蒜頭時再開放進口。","這個部分我一直希望卓院長可以協助我們農民保障蒜頭價格，所以拜託部長，是不是能夠與關稅局進行合理的協調，來確保我們農民的收益？"],["陳部長駿季：感謝委員，農業部針對花生跟大蒜這兩項，特別是我們現在用配額的制度、配額加上高關稅的部分，然後針對剛剛委員講的進口時間點，我們回去會再討論，依現在來講，8月至10月是我們欠缺的時間。"],["丁委員學忠：所以我們不是反對進口，而是說這個進口的時間點……"],["陳部長駿季：對，時間我們再來監測一下。"],["丁委員學忠：進口的時間點不要壓低臺灣農民的收益。"],["陳部長駿季：關於大蒜這個部分，因為這幾年的天氣變化導致我們種的時間點稍微有變動，所以我們進口的時間應該也要做一些調整，這個我回去再跟我們同仁討論一下。"],["丁委員學忠：好，感謝部長，還有一項我還是要再幫養殖業發聲，我們這個「粉蟯」……剛才我們說到糧食的問題，現在我們講到養殖業，雲林沿海地區養了很多「粉蟯」，我收到很多陳情，因為氣候異常，都會有大量死亡的狀況，我們農業部都有派水產試驗所去會勘，然後說這不是天災，是水質或是飼料的因素，因此不符合天然災害的補助，關於農民的損失，我們真的也不知道要用什麼方式來幫忙，是否可以拜託部長，我們來找出一個對策？譬如相關輔導機制，還是另外用基金來協助農民有關養殖上大量死亡的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，關於「粉蟯」的部分，跟水質有什麼關係，我們希望後續是用產業輔導的方式協助養殖漁民能夠澈底改善水質跟底泥的部分，這部分我們會注意。"],["丁委員學忠：感謝院長，感謝部長，感謝主席，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝丁委員，也謝謝卓院長。農產品進口時間的滾動檢討是滿重要的，不只有蒜頭，好幾樣農產品都有類似的情形。","下一位請李柏毅委員。","李柏毅委員的質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員李柏毅書面質詢：","過去中油宿舍區結合產業與民生，1,157戶共用一個電號，採取工業用電計價模式。煉油廠關廠後，在調漲工業用電與電費累進制度下，造成宏南、宏毅、宏榮居民們須承擔最高級距的電價，當年的美意在時空背景變遷後卻成了今天的負擔。","在產業結構的調整下，政策也必須進行合理的改變，本席在今年6月18日與邱議瑩委員共同舉辦了中油宿舍區（宏榮、宏毅、宏南社區）電力計價協調會，在會議中本席主張宿舍區電費計價應進行合理轉型，回歸民生用電計價，建議中油對宿舍區進行投資，和台電進行通盤考量、研擬解決方案，讓里民能在酷暑中放心用電，不必再為了高額的電價操心。會議中也達成共識，國營司應與中油、台電進行電力計價協調，針對公共區域電力設施相關費用作權責歸屬協調，保障宿舍區居民權益。","據此，本席提出下列質詢：","1.經濟部針對中油宿舍區電費計價之轉型事宜，是否已與中油、台電完成電力計價之協調？","2.何時開始實施新的電價計費？能否針對過去溢收部分做出補償？或有其他補助措施？","3.若有涉及公共設施替換更新之工程，則相關施作之責任歸屬又是否已有定案？","上述質詢之回覆，請於兩周內以書面答覆本席。"],["主席：下一位請郭委員昱晴質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴士葆","蘇清泉","顏寬恒","馬文君","謝衣鳯","丁學忠","郭昱晴","陳素月","黃秀芳","蔡其昌","張啓楷","林德福","黃國昌"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002","1136401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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tart":10.468,"end":17.411,"text":"感謝大會主席各部會首長我邀請到我們院長跟我們的經濟部長跟農業部長請院長還有兩位部長備詢"},{"start":34.451,"end":41.913,"text":"丁委員好,祝福你,天天快樂。謝謝,院長好。感謝院長和兩位補充這段時間的情況。我經常看到我們的電視轉播,看到院長對著我們國委員,將對地方事的一個訴求、的因應。"},{"start":54.077,"end":62.069,"text":"議長都有很正面的一個回應。我在這也要跟我們議長、我們兩位國長討論到我們婚姻關有一些過分的問題。也希望說我們行政院加工業部加經濟部"},{"start":69.701,"end":72.683,"text":"可以來幫我們協助。第一項就是當我們訓練沿海地區,因為這個地震好寒,有些地區甚至低於海平面,地勢有差距,造成我們這個海水道觀,還是說我們這個落地的大橋,"},{"start":88.294,"end":88.414,"text":"：丁學長"},{"start":103.614,"end":112.92,"text":"這個金牙要不發動來對著這個問題來一一來改善。阿想說,我們院長跟我們那個經濟部長,針對這個地區的國分,可以來跟我們協助一下。阿我現在要請我們議長跟兩位國長來看到我們一個天文潮,一個人主義的一個問題。"},{"start":130.626,"end":158.425,"text":"這海水倒轉,一定硬會來了來,大家看喔已經要下雨除了停在水雲,還要放水滴,差不多要清醒了已經到晚潮,再加上颱風的效應讓這個晚潮更加嚴重,整個水都要來漏了"},{"start":162.495,"end":163.016,"text":"﹚丁學忠議員﹚"},{"start":180.976,"end":182.137,"text":"臨時提案委員．丁學忠委員．丁學忠"},{"start":209.78,"end":217.849,"text":"對臨時的一個承諾,防止我們臨時共同來解決這個水患的一個問題。剛才我們說到這個風態和異常的大潮,造成了我們今年這個災情,現在已經又六月了,風態開,風態下又兩月九了,我們接下來幾月還會出現這個大潮。"},{"start":232.224,"end":239.166,"text":"當然民眾都很緊張,目前要緊急要做的工作就是要來幾月說登記、改革一個方案。另外這個所準的工程也要趕時間做回來進行,要應用到我們議員的一個策略。希望說我們中央可以趕緊來"},{"start":254.611,"end":255.131,"text":"報告委員：丁學忠"},{"start":278.789,"end":288.512,"text":"今天委員對這個婚姻的一些提案,因為那地層下一屆議案,我們現在做的兩項,第一項就是說我們的賣頭有沒有,我們的賣頭的架構的部分。那第二個部分就是我們的輸進的部分。"},{"start":307.298,"end":307.598,"text":"﹚丁學忠﹚"},{"start":331.383,"end":331.403,"text":"議員：丁"},{"start":359.96,"end":368.464,"text":"你出港以後一些海峰的關係也一些稍有嗎?去主導我們的海港的出港者,這部分我們來想辦法看怎麼處理。好,感謝博定,第二項,針對我們國鄉的水利建設,我們的水利問題,當我們婦人館政府顧及這個應急工程,"},{"start":384.684,"end":384.844,"text":"﹚丁學忠"},{"start":401.986,"end":402.006,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":418.614,"end":427.261,"text":"我們為了解決這個問題﹐國際的責任和資金都很需要邀請來處理﹐我舉例﹐舉例來說﹐當我們學會﹐我們法港﹐我們有幾個區域來有幾個重要的責任系統﹐這都需要邀請來解決﹐我們學會就主要有一條30多塊﹐30多塊﹐在過去那邊都封了﹐"},{"start":444.113,"end":452.861,"text":"但是現在家裡這麼多人起來,變相風雨沒辦法到來消耗到這個火水,就像那個老舊的開水溝,現在要流水,水量這個,流白水的速度就比較慢,都經常就像我們新的日子裡面,幾層陰層,這時候都差不多二十幾年的空氣了。"},{"start":467.655,"end":468.295,"text":"﹚丁學忠﹚"},{"start":494.64,"end":507.614,"text":"而將對我們這個議員區的國分﹚或是至於那個改善的這個海水系統的國分﹚可以有強調的經費﹚而拜託委員長想可以建立更多地主委的經費﹚而給我們婦人館可以來改革一些長久的一些問題好不好。"},{"start":512.919,"end":525.483,"text":"是,報告委員,地水的問題一直是政府登記以來很重視的考慮。我們幾年來也編進相關的相關的預算進行。剛才關於我們這個所在地區的進樓的改善工程都有31件,中維區農樓的改善也有26件。這都較為優先的損失要進行。剛才那個委員所講的那個個案的部分,白水的部分請經濟部來說明。"},{"start":539.328,"end":540.069,"text":"報告委員：丁學忠"},{"start":555.572,"end":584.804,"text":"觀眾觀眾觀眾觀眾觀眾觀眾觀眾觀眾觀眾觀眾觀眾"},{"start":585.336,"end":604.02,"text":"都很負責任的問題。實在我現在也要跟我們同樣保證,跟你說說你掌對著我們這個共同屆屆的條件,你近日你就公布的事情,讓我和我們這些農民都非常地希望,也希望說我們保證可以掌對這個共同屆屆的手槓,你還要再三思一下。我之前也要跟我們保證說,我們這個"},{"start":612.481,"end":627.151,"text":"農業國,我們的就是要改善我們農園的一個管理。但對於農民來說,我們這個新興的政策,提供到比較好的介紹。而我們加起來,這個政策的改善啦,農民的改善,對著我們農業國的政策,也沒有得到相當正面的一個回應。所以我們先,過去我就沒有參與到,現在參與到,我要積極來請求到,我們分管農民的一個管理。"},{"start":641.96,"end":648.526,"text":"但正正3月下午我就一直在向國長強調到大蒜的問題,蒜頭的問題。就讓我分析說,我們農業部說,我收到消息大量進口蒜頭回來,藥劑群組的蒜頭的介紹,"},{"start":660.857,"end":669.424,"text":"那時候,我們都有去講到阿根廷、西關牙、埃及的選舉,否則我們現在正靠,正靠於我們台灣的選舉,有到幾個。"},{"start":675.522,"end":691.529,"text":"我向委員報告,就是說我們現在的選舉在進口的時候,它本身有的是從埃及,應該是阿根廷為主,埃及的部分就是為府,因為不同的月份。"},{"start":692.729,"end":704.821,"text":"這個部分就是說,我們一定會補充我們的蒜農的生產,所以他們進口的時間會跟我們生產的時間跟我們賣的時間會錯開。所以我在這補充還是要跟你再提醒一下,我們阿根廷的蒜頭進口回來的時間是我們台灣種蒜頭的時間。"},{"start":716.872,"end":724.218,"text":"我們埃及進口回來的時間剛好我們臺灣蒜頭出産的時間。所以,這樣像埃及的蒜頭去打到我們臺灣本土的蒜頭的基礎。是我們在那裡,我們在那裡,我們在之前,"},{"start":733.286,"end":733.626,"text":"發言委員：丁學忠"},{"start":760.498,"end":767.86,"text":"因為我們這個WTO在我們這個關稅契額3,000幾噸的這個過分,這就是我們這個國際貿易組織在我們一定要要履行的一個過分。我們如果說,針對這個高關稅的算頭,我們想可以說,講解到它的所容,而且說,"},{"start":781.465,"end":790.273,"text":"尤其是這個阿根廷的蒜頭,它的出産期和我們台灣的出産期是一模一樣的時間,所以它未來明天打入到我們的蒜頭。阿如果發動,就是把它作動到說,六、七月、七月一號、七月幾月下,我們台灣的蒜頭用完了,開始要來吃正口蒜頭,我們再開放給他們正口蒜頭。"},{"start":804.385,"end":812.928,"text":"這個過分我是一直希望說我們組委員長可以來協助我們論壇靠鉤在這個選舉的一個過程﹖所以拜託我們那個﹖聽好了﹖我們跟這個關稅局的過分我們想可以做一個合理的一個協調﹖可以來靠鉤到我們論壇這個收益﹖是不是這樣﹖"},{"start":829.814,"end":842.53,"text":"我感謝委員,因為農業部對土豆跟大蒜這兩項,特別是我們現在有配額的制度,配額加上高關稅的部分。然後剛才委員講的就是說,我們的進口的時間點,我們當夜就去討論了。"},{"start":846.275,"end":850.479,"text":"所以我們不是反對進口,我們會反對進口,我們是說這個進口的時間上,時間點,時間點我們要去揭露我們的臺灣農園,這個收益的感覺。因為這幾年的天氣變化,我們的進口時間稍微有在變動,所以我們的進口的時間應該也是要做一些調整。"},{"start":871.756,"end":871.776,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":890.029,"end":890.229,"text":"施政院院長"},{"start":919.77,"end":920.911,"text":"我跟委員報告,有分曰我這個部份因為"},{"start":959.563,"end":959.903,"text":"農產品進口時間"}]}},{"id":"154392","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154392","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68a429fa9c6a705de1e6cd03fb23edab3c9072eeb91c5cf0cd1cedbb00e0087671e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:47:18 - 12:00:49","影片長度":"00:13:31","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T11:47:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T12:00:49+08:00","duration":811,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":967,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時47分）院長早，我想要請卓院長、陳常次及劉主委。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部及國發會劉主委，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：請教院長，國發會主委預估未來的電力成長是每年3%左右，對不對？是吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：報告委員，這是經濟部與台電的評估。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是你們彙整嗎？這是你應該彙整的，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我記得是你彙整。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為能源政策是歸經濟部。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是你是負責整個規劃的，你們要跨部會溝通協商，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，可是這個是經濟部獨自可以處理的事情。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是經濟部預估的3%嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，我們評估的方式是台電先做評估，台電評估……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們的評估是3%，對不對？"],["陳次長正祺：它本來是2.5%，後來能源署再把它加碼到3%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：今天因為經濟部長出國沒有來，他說未來每年成長的3%主要是以光電來補它的缺口，是不是？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，我們確保我們供電端上來的一定多於退休的，所以以2030年為例，我們評估大概會增加需求700萬瓩，但我們會增加910萬瓩的供應，所以數字上來講是沒有問題的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我先跟你說，這是109年到113年的發電結構，我相信你們看到了，我們從110年開始每年的發電成長大概是1%，再生能源部分占比大概是1%，占總發電結構的1%、2%及1.5%。我們再細看再生能源的部分，把電力供需狀況細看，可以看到112年相較於111年光電只有成長0.8%，未來我們的供電缺口不管是成長1%、2%、3%，恐怕光電的成長都沒有辦法來彌補，請問未來怎麼做？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，我們所謂的增加是指燃氣機組方面的增加，我會確保這個電絕對夠，那麼在搭配……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以未來如果增加3%，就是以火力增加，是不是？"],["陳次長正祺：是！"],["謝委員衣鳯：而不是以光電增加，是不是？"],["陳次長正祺：光電是再多出來的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：光電是再多出來的嘛。所以我們看到總統府淨零碳排委員會的副召集人童董事長，他有說，我們是不是還在陶醉我們的減碳成績？劉主委，這是你的責任了吧！我很清楚淨零碳排是國發會的責任，到底我們淨零碳排的成績是如何，你說？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：報告委員，我們是有一個減碳路徑，在2030年要減24%加減1個百分點，最近我們剛盤點完成，大概我們目標可以到23%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我再問你一個，我們每度電的碳排量相較於鄰近貿易競爭的國家是不是偏高？這是機密嗎？可不可以講？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前我……"],["謝委員衣鳯：不要等到我出了這個院會，你才說這是機密啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這不是機密，我們是從四個重要的減碳路徑來劃分，一個是台電的減碳路徑、一個是交通的減碳路徑等等這四個路徑。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以在維持臺灣經濟競爭力的情況下，總統府淨零碳排的副召集人童子賢董事長說的，他說綠能30%、核能30%是最好的減碳配比，你們贊不贊同？卓院長，你贊不贊同？卓院長，你說啊！贊不贊同？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在絕對沒有能力核能30%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊！你不用講核能，綠能也沒有辦法到達30%啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是循序漸進的多元發展。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那什麼時候可能到達這樣的配比──綠能30%、核能30%？因為……"],["卓院長榮泰：配比50%、30%、20%當中，就是這樣的配比，那是要循序漸進，很多的途徑、很多的過程、很多的多元發展。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以我想要請問卓院長，你還是要抱著非核家園的神主牌嗎？怎麼樣才能夠協助臺灣在國際淨零碳排減碳這一塊上面，我們可以循序漸進？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，2002年環境基本法第二十三條所訂，政府應訂定計畫，逐步達成非核家園目標，這不是我的神主牌，這是我們共同的法律啊！委員跟立法院現在都應該來……"],["謝委員衣鳯：今年度屢創高溫，各地都在停電耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：但這是法律，我們朝這個目標來進行啊！"],["謝委員衣鳯：大家都在停電，你知道現在發生的是什麼情況嗎？台電的電路維修是經常性的，一下子這一區、一下子那一區，大家輪流維修、輪流停電，為了就是國家供電可以穩定，但是什麼時候我們才可以讓大家不用擔心沒有電用、不用擔心開冷氣會害怕？沒有人希望浪費冷氣啊！大家都希望節省電費啊！因為大家都是節儉出來的，在怎麼樣的情況下，大家用電才能夠用得安心、不會擔心一吹冷氣就跳電？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個非核家園不是神主牌，是我們共同的法律，我們一起依法行政；再來我剛剛也跟委員答復過了，經濟部、台電要用10年的時間再強化電網，我認為時間太長了，我要把它縮短，甚至縮到一半，如果可能的話，我們節省出來的錢，我們做一些獎勵措施，早一天把電網韌性強化起來，就是對全民供電安全的最佳保證，我們朝這個方向繼續再努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在郭部長在美國談境外關內、境內關外的問題，是不是？你們預計……"],["陳次長正祺：是，他主要是推動臺美避免雙重課稅協定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們預定會增加多少出口？"],["陳次長正祺：增加出口？"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會？"],["陳次長正祺：會！我們當然會努力來推動貿易。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會增加出口，但郭部長因為是從半導體來的，他忽略掉了，其實在臺灣最大部分的是中小企業，半導體很多的產品不需要關稅，但是我們的中小企業、我們的精密機械、我們的傳產，出口是需要關稅的。陳次長，你非常清楚，對不對？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那境外關內以及境內關外，可以對於我們的中小企業、對於我們的傳產帶來多大的助益，你是不是可以說明？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，境外關內的概念是讓我們的中小企業可以成群結隊，以大帶小到海外支援當地的供應鏈，在這個情況下，因為我們用政府出面團結所有的中小企業業者，在那邊我們有比較強的談判能力，會跟當地政府談一些優惠措施，而且談一些比較好的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，除了要讓我們的半導體有競爭力以外，我希望你瞭解，我們的中小企業、我們的傳產也希望藉由這樣子整條鏈帶動，也要一起出去好不好？"],["陳次長正祺：是，這我們同意，我們也支持。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那未來境內關外呢？"],["陳次長正祺：境內關外是希望引進國外的名品還有美食，還有高階的消費者可以到臺灣來促進臺灣服務業的消費，提高臺灣的薪資所得。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來我們如果境外關內，我們的半導體以及我們傳產，例如到了日本熊本，那是不是要帶動我們臺灣的傳產、甚至是飲食業者到日本去？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：日本人很喜歡我們的珍珠奶茶，很喜歡我們的小籠包，很喜歡臺灣所有的美食，是不是也能帶出去，你怎麼樣推動？"],["陳次長正祺：可以，這是我們在努力的目標，我們比方跟印度已經在討論說會不會能夠建一個臺灣城，讓我們的產業在那邊有群聚的效果。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是在印度嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：現在是已經在討論中了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那日本呢？日本有沒有？"],["陳次長正祺：日本我們會規劃。"],["謝委員衣鳯：日本也會規劃嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：是、是、是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那還有哪一個國家？歐洲會不會？"],["陳次長正祺：對不起，剛才沒聽到。"],["謝委員衣鳯：歐洲。"],["陳次長正祺：歐洲我們也會努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：歐洲我們要想辦法，不止讓半導體──就是跟著半導體，讓我們的傳產都跟著半導體出去，讓我們臺灣的美食也跟著半導體出去……"],["陳次長正祺：是，我們非常支持。"],["謝委員衣鳯：能夠讓我們臺灣的經濟發展，這是我們大家希望的，是不是？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：最後，我想要請問，我們二林中科園區是一個限定低用水、低污染的園區，卓院長，我們彰化人沒對不起你們吧！對不對？我們也有投票給你們賴總統吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們二林的中科園區現在一直招商不足，有可能是用水或等等問題，有沒有辦法做再生水廠？"],["卓院長榮泰：二林這個園區我們希望它是低用水、低排碳的方式，它的再生水未來可能達到這個園區用水量的一半，所以現在積極在做再生水的開發。"],["謝委員衣鳯：拜託你儘快規劃好不好？因為有非常多的產業，如果談成功了，非常多的產業，像輝達所說的，AI的產業也要進來，如果能夠解決用水的問題，讓二林中科園區不會用到農民的水，我們要製造、我們要有新的再生水廠，還有二林精密機械園區，院長，有沒有辦法做？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在就是用再生水來做主要的，現行的這些其他的水、自來水等等，用一些備援的方式來處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你知道其實民間有非常多的特登工廠，特登工廠有可能在105年之後設立的就沒有辦法，這是一個歷史的演變過程，我們大家都要共同面對、共同解決，這些沒有辦法過的工廠，如果未來我們有辦法讓二林精密機械園區過了，即便我們不一定說全部都是以精密機械園區，我們可以改名叫二林產業園區，我們可以讓更多的不合特登工廠的工廠可以移到那裡，給這些臺灣的傳產、給我們的中小企業一條活路，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：有關於工廠的相關問題，經濟部再請地方政府也一起來合作，經濟部來瞭解。"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是？陳次長，可不可以？"],["陳次長正祺：對，沒錯，因為依照工廠輔導法，我們本來就有在輔導這些特登工廠，但是如果有新的園區，我們也會跟他們一起來努力，這個要跟地方政府一起來合作。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，因為這其實是大家共同需要面對、共同需要解決的特登工廠問題，我相信在臺灣各縣市都有相關的問題，二林的這個原本設計是精密機械園區，未來如果我們擴大，也許不叫精密機械，或者叫產業園區，是不是就可以解決我們的精密機械？其實郭部長也說，我們的精密機械產業跟半導體產業已經跨入它初階的機器零組件裡面了，未來如果境外關內的問題可以解決，也許我們的精密機械就可以去到相關半導體初階的產地，也可以促進我們精密機械產業的發展，我相信這都是為了臺灣所有經濟發展，以及我們所有勞工以及中小企業還有所有的民眾，我希望不要分黨派，我們共同來做，好不好？卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝，以上。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，我們下午2點30分繼續進行經濟組之質詢，謝謝卓院長及各位閣員。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":409.668,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":429.14,"end":453.421,"text":"會,會增加出口,但是國部長他因為從半導體來的,他忽略到了其實在我們臺灣最大部分的是中小企業,半導體很多的產品它不需要關稅,但是我們的中小企業,我們的精密機械,我們的船產,它出口是需要關稅的。陳次長你非常清楚對不對?是。"},{"start":454.102,"end":470.664,"text":"那境外觀內以及境內觀外可以對於我們的中小企業對於我們的傳產帶來多大的注意?你是不是可以說明?境外觀內的概念是讓我們的中小企業可以成為"},{"start":471.405,"end":471.585,"text":"除了"},{"start":489.381,"end":489.962,"text":"那未來境內關外呢?"},{"start":507.878,"end":514.627,"text":"進內官會是希望引進國外的名品還有美食還有高階的消費者可以到臺灣來促進臺灣服務業的消費提高臺灣的薪資所得"},{"start":519.718,"end":543.843,"text":"那未來我們如果進外觀內我們的半導體以及我們船產例如到了日本熊本那是不是要帶動我們台灣的船產甚至是飲食業者到日本去啊日本人很喜歡我們的珍珠奶茶很喜歡我們的小籠包很喜歡台灣的所有的美食是不是也能帶出去你怎麼樣推動"},{"start":544.363,"end":548.445,"text":"是在印度嗎?那日本呢?日本有沒有呢?日本我們會規劃。日本也會規劃嗎?那還有哪一個國家?歐洲會不會?"},{"start":566.338,"end":585.611,"text":"歐洲我們要想辦法不只讓半導體就是跟著半導體嘛,讓我們的船船都跟著半導體出去,讓我們台灣的美食也跟著半導體出去嘛,能夠讓我們台灣的經濟能夠發展嘛,這是我們大家希望的嘛,是不是?"},{"start":586.351,"end":594.319,"text":"最後我想要請問我們二林中科園區是一個限定就是低用水低污染的一個園區那"},{"start":596.377,"end":615.708,"text":"主委院長,我們彰化人沒對不起你們吧?對不對?我們也有投票給你們賴總統吧?我們二零的中科園區用水啊,現在一直招商不足,有可能是用水啊或等等問題,有沒有辦法再生水償?"},{"start":617.759,"end":620.341,"text":"拜託你盡快的規劃好不好,因為有非常多的產業,如果談成功了,非常多的產業,"},{"start":642.398,"end":661.323,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":669.996,"end":684.525,"text":"你知道其實民間有非常多的特登工廠那特登工廠有可能在105年之後他們設立的就沒有辦法這是一個歷史的演變的過程我們大家都要共同的面對共同的解決"},{"start":685.846,"end":685.866,"text":"﹚謝衣鳯"},{"start":706.596,"end":716.817,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":717.308,"end":743.709,"text":"有關於這個工廠的相關的問題經濟部再請地方政府也一起來合作經濟部來了解是不是陳次長可不可以對沒錯因為依照工廠輔導法我們本來就有在輔導這些特登工廠但是如果有這個新的園區我們也會跟他們一起來努力對因為這其實是大家共同需要面對共同需要解決的這個特登工廠的問題我相信在臺灣各縣市都有相關的問題"},{"start":745.35,"end":771.516,"text":"那未來如果2020的這個原本設計是精密機械園區那未來如果我們擴大也許不叫精密機械或者叫產業園區是不是可以解決我們精密機械其實郭部長也說我們的精密機械產業跟半導體產業已經已經跨入他初階的這樣子的一個機器零組件裡面了"},{"start":772.176,"end":791.476,"text":"﹗"},{"start":791.836,"end":807.787,"text":"這都是為了臺灣所有經濟發展以及我們所有勞工以及中小企業還有所有的民眾。我希望不要分黨派,我們共同來做好不好?主委院長。好的,謝謝。好,謝謝。以上。好,謝謝文司教授。謝謝謝衣鳯委員。"}]}},{"id":"154391","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154391","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68a70f2e8d17d5ec2456cd03fb23edab3c9d6e0c0b79bf482f932346238ad03635c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"11:15:50 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11:46:40","影片長度":"00:30:50","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T11:15:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T11:46:40+08:00","duration":1850,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":878,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（11時16分）謝謝主席，麻煩請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：院長好。我們前幾天在新聞上面看到，包括南投縣仁愛鄉的很多高麗菜、很多農作物都受到冰雹的影響，甚至半個小時之內把整片的很多很多農作物都打壞掉了。我們現在特別要提的是，目前全球可能是氣候變遷的因素，整個大環境以及天候，不是過冷就是過熱，不是水太多就是乾旱，所以對農民也造成很多的衝擊和影響。不管是民進黨政府也好，國民黨政府也好，其實都一直希望好好地照顧農民，所以推了很多相關的政策。可是今天本席也要在這裡特別為農民請命，因為南投是一個農業觀光大縣，尤其近幾年很多農業都受到非常大的衝擊，對他們也造成不小的影響，但這些畢竟是不可抗力的因素，我們沒有辦法改變天氣或者去控制，可是人為的就要由政府付很大的責任。","我們最近接到很多陳情，針對農保的部分突然被註銷了，他們有很多人都已經八、九十歲了。在民國78年的時候，之前其實很多人並不會想要特別加入農保，可是因為政府的政策，希望可以保障農民，在他們都還不知道未來好不好的情況之下，政府是強制性的，尤其是如果有農會保險的身分，一定要強制納保。可是當他們保了三十年、四十年甚至更久的時間，現在卻突然被政府說，你們的資格可能有疑慮，比如你有工商登記，像這樣子就被取消掉了。這個有沒有什麼樣的一個具體作法？"],["卓院長榮泰：農業部來說明。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員，我在這邊說明。委員一直在關心這個議題，我也開了很多的相關會議，想辦法找到一個可以解決的方法。目前就是如果你的工商登記是跟農業有關，這個部分可以免除；如果你登記的不是農業、以外的那個沒辦法，因為相關的農保條例已經規定在那邊了。但我們現在去強調的就是，他的老農年金，不會因為他退保了以後不能再加保而損失，所以他的權益完全還是有保障的，這是我想我們在溝通的時候去做……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們要說的不是他有保障，因為這本來就是他應得的，那是他自己繳的保費。我們現在講的是你突然把它註銷，那我想請問一下，因為剛剛部長提到，如果他的工商登記只要跟……"],["陳部長駿季：農業有相關。"],["馬委員文君：農業有相關的……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["馬委員文君：全部都可以納入……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["馬委員文君：可以認定，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["馬委員文君：我舉例來說，比如國姓的咖啡農，像他們去申請工商登記，他們為什麼去申請工商登記？因為那個時候政府要求他們必須要做標章的認定，他們要去申請產地標章，就要求一定要做工商登記。所以他們因為這樣的因素去申請工商登記，就可以照樣維持農保的資格，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，只要和農業相關、有關的，我們會儘量來協助。"],["馬委員文君：因為他們是被取消的喔！這也是在陳情的對象以內，這是第一個。第二個，如果他們開雜貨店，比如說像過去在很早期，三、四十年前甚至四、五十年前，像仁愛鄉、信義鄉、中寮鄉，南投縣很多偏鄉，他們除了種植農作物以外，其實如果光靠種那些菜或蔬果，並沒有辦法支撐他們的生活，所以有人可能還開了雜貨店，他們把種的東西放在雜貨店賣，那算不算？因為也要做工商登記啊！"],["陳部長駿季：因為雜貨店本身不是只跟農業有關，還有其他的部分。我還是要跟委員說明，就算他退保，還是可以去加保，如果他年齡比較大，我們會請……"],["馬委員文君：部長，來陳情的都是八、九十歲，請問九十幾歲的人要加保什麼？而且你們的加保條件是他必須到土地上實際耕作，一個93歲的老人家，你叫他還要再去耕作！那個時候是政府要他強制納保的！這是第一點。","我再請問一下，如果像現在有很多農地被拿去種電，在上面設置相關的太陽能板，因為要把電賣給台電，有躉售的行為，他們也要做工商登記，那他可不可以維持農保？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，他們只要在漁電共生那下面繼續從事漁業就沒有問題。"],["馬委員文君：部長，他從事漁業，那是地！"],["陳部長駿季：對！"],["馬委員文君：我剛剛講的那些農民，他們也都在他們的土地上面實際從事農業，而且真的種了一輩子，他們從沒有機械代替、沒有人力資源，在沒有水、沒有電的情況之下，要爬山涉水，還要去搬水，那個年代他們就在從事農業，一輩子都待在那裡，可是他們的資格被取消掉了！今天要賣電給台電的時候，你說的那個跟農業相關，它相關在哪裡？他賣電耶！"],["陳部長駿季：不是……"],["馬委員文君：你如果是用土地還可以繼續做農業生產使用做標準，那他們這些被取消的也都是啊！當他在他的雜貨店賣他養的雞，這也是農民啊！當然，這個沒有確切的農業資格，可是像他種植的蔬果都在自己的門前賣，你們卻把他取消了，事實上他就都是直接在從事農業的，所以你們的標準很奇怪！為了配合政府的政策，只要是跟光電有關的，居然就可以！他申請工商登記，賣電跟農業有什麼關係？"],["陳部長駿季：委員有一點誤解，漁電共生的光電業者是不能參加農保的，但是他跟農民合作，農民本身的農保資格不會被取消，所以還是農民對這塊地的……"],["馬委員文君：那如果香菇農在他自己種香菇的棚架上面架設太陽能板，他也必須賣電，所以去申請工商登記，那他的資格算不算？"],["陳部長駿季：菇農的資格還是算啊！"],["馬委員文君：為什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：他本身是農民，他去種菇，只是他在屋頂架太陽能板，架太陽能板是……"],["馬委員文君：部長，這要看你們給農民的解釋。因為在我們的法條上面，清清楚楚地寫了，只要實質從事相關的農業，農保就會存在，因為你要做這些都是為了要打假農民，可是你把真的農民全部犧牲掉了，你現在幫他們說的是在上面種電，可是當時說他們不合格是因為他們辦了工商登記，所以不可以。現在如果種了電，不只可以賣電給台電，資格也還可以，我不知道這樣的標準差異在哪裡？他們也實際在從農啊！這些人都有從農啊！而且繳了一輩子，你們說停就停，他什麼都沒有！"],["陳部長駿季：我想委員非常清楚，我們一般不會主動針對65歲以上、特別是年紀大的人去查核，最主要是因為當時紓困的時候，他們領了這些……"],["馬委員文君：部長，這都已經不是中間的過程，我們今天是要講一個公平正義的問題，當你們知道這些人是實際一輩子從農，從年輕到老，而且他繳了一輩子農保的錢，可是只因為他有工商登記，他被你取消了。你的條例裡面如果就部長剛剛講的，只要他的條件是有實際從農，他就可以符合農保的資格，這是我們照顧農民，而且是農保政策的一個很重要的目的……"],["陳部長駿季：是的。"],["馬委員文君：結果你現在可以幫他們解釋說，如果你在上面種電，你賣電給台電，那你是可以的，但這些原來的農民、真正的農民卻不可以，這樣的政府是有為有能的嗎？而且這個人數並不是很多，到目前為止，從今年1月到5月總共才404位，他們繳了很多錢耶！政府好像在騙他一樣，是不是應該要……"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員說明……"],["馬委員文君：部長，不是對我們說明，而是你如果真的要照顧農民，你們必須解決這個問題，當你可以解釋在你的菇寮上面架設光電，賣電給台電，可以申請工商登記，而且這樣符合農保資格，當你做這樣解釋的時候，你就應該有辦法幫真正一輩子從農的這些老農，當他們往生以後要的那區區的三十多萬，你把它取消掉，增加兒女的負擔，是他們現在最關心的，是他們現在最擔心的，有很多的子女回來還要負擔他這一筆，他們來陳情主要是為了這個，這個部分是不是可以請院長跟部長去做全面的檢視？對這個部分可以有怎麼樣的一個解套的方式，來幫助我們真正的這些老農，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我覺得委員提出的這個觀察，不無可以檢討之處，我們常常說養殖為本、農事為本，養殖為本，才能夠綠能加值，還是要養殖或有從事農事都應該存在，如果從這個標準來看它有相關，我是建議參酌委員剛剛的這個講法，我們做實質上的檢討或必要的解釋跟說明。"],["馬委員文君：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：普遍要照顧到真正還在從事農事的這些農民朋友們。"],["馬委員文君：當我們這些政策是要照顧農民的時候，沒有理由我們用法來犧牲他們，或者就把他們自己的權益通通斷送掉了，而且他是真的繳了好幾十年，因為你主要是為了假農民嘛！包括剛剛的漁電共生，我們的漁電共生大家可以回去檢視看看，事實上他的魚是可以存活的嗎？是可以長大的嗎？如果像這樣子的條件都不行的情況之下，你還可以給他有農保的資格，那為什麼這些不可以？我們非常感謝剛剛院長跟部長有特別提到就這個部分去做研議，可以儘速給我們相關結果的一些答案嗎？大概多久的時間？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想部長會儘快。"],["陳部長駿季：我會儘快，因為這個牽涉到一些例外條件的設定，其實我們研究了非常久，我們也解決了……像你剛才說剩下四百多個，其實本來是一萬多個，所以我們有很多，包括打開了只要跟農業有關的工商業登記，我們都可以認，那現在就是最後一個……"],["馬委員文君：部長，電跟農業沒有關係，就是賣電跟農業沒有關係……"],["陳部長駿季：這是兩件事。"],["馬委員文君：那是政策，對，那是兩件事，所以當你這個可以認定的時候，其他真正的農民你沒有理由不認定。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會來找到一個方法……"],["馬委員文君：所以我們希望可以很快的，至少在兩個禮拜之內或一個月之內，給我們一些初步的方向，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會隨時跟委員聯絡。"],["馬委員文君：院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。另外，我想要請教的也是跟農民有關的，就是我們在採購農藥跟肥料的時候，我們為什麼要將個資寫得這麼清楚，包括他的身分證字號，包括他的姓名、電話、住址，還有他的所有權狀，比如他的土地面積等等，為什麼我們要做到這樣子？農民買個肥料跟農藥有必要這樣嗎？全世界有哪一個民主國家有這樣做？部長，可不可以先讓我們知道一下，全世界有哪一個國家這樣做？"],["陳部長駿季：他們是有類似的……因為臺灣農業的耕作制度跟美國的大規模耕作制度是不一樣的，那我們這樣做的目的是希望透過這樣的方式，讓農民更精準的用藥、更精準的施肥，然後後面相關的事宜，包括我們未來要做的這些數位的農民服務，我們都會利用這種所謂的農藥實名制跟肥料實名制……"],["馬委員文君：部長，全世界沒有其他國家這樣做嘛！對不對？就是要個資，因為要身分證，我去買個肥料，老實說，剛開始這是立意良好，就是像剛剛部長提到的，我們希望包括農藥殘留量，還有確保食安的問題，就是讓他有正確的肥料跟農藥的使用方式，可是事實上並不然，其實除了本末倒置或者擾民以外，而且讓所有農民都覺得自己像賊一樣，因為老實說肥料那麼大一包，如果今天我沒有種，比如像院長、比如像部長，你們沒事會去買肥料來家裡放嗎？那個也要花錢，而且那個會潮溼，也不能久放，而且這麼大的量體，你還要有特別的地方來擺放，所以一般的農民會特別花錢去把它多買回來放在家裡嗎？這個部分從過去到現在都沒有，是近幾年才有，你是不相信農民？如果你要讓農民有正確使用肥料跟農藥這樣子的概念，必須從農民教育開始。"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員說明，農藥實名制、肥料實名制只要第一次去登記的時候，需要填這些資料，以後買肥料就是報一個電話號碼就可以了。"],["馬委員文君：對啊！那很奇怪啊！因為你的目的……"],["陳部長駿季：所以是第一次登錄而已。"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為你的目的是希望可以控制用藥，就是我的面積原來可能五分地，可是我如果賣掉三分地、四分地了，我還是一樣買那麼多啊！所以你們那個是多此一舉。我現在說的是，你必須要根本解決，第一，從源頭，比如像肥料還有農藥的製造商，他們在成分和劑量上面去做最好的控管，當你們知道以後，再給農民最好的一個用藥及用肥料的教育，我相信對我們的食安還有對所有的安全都會有更大的幫助，部長也許知道，如果像現在的天氣太熱、太冷，其實他用的農藥已經不太適用了，而且我們可以使用的農藥品項很少，當農民他使用無效，蟲還是來吃的時候，或者長不出來的時候，他可能有兩種情況，第一種，違規使用，用沒有核定、沒有核准的藥；第二個，有可能必須加量，因為你一直在用舊的農藥，比如像很多我們人的藥品也是，久了就會有抗藥性、耐受性，所以現在有很多的新藥，其實它稀釋都是以千倍、萬倍計算，可是我們現在核准的可能是兩千，兩千他用不行，把它稀釋兩千不行，變成一千，一千不行變五百，所以它的殘留量就會增加，或者他使用一次無效、兩次無效，他就會用第三次，所以其實對我們本來要的一個目的是沒有幫助的。"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員說明，整個農藥、肥料的施用，我們的宣導持續透過教育訓練。第二個部分，剛才您所說的，因為在實名制裡面，他種的東西是會被呈現的，這樣子農藥行這些人就可以給他一個比較正確的建議。"],["馬委員文君：部長，這些就是農民、農藥行跟我的建議，因為我們不是第一年實施，它已經實施一段時間，有些藥就是不行，比如為什麼日本進口的草莓，我們要把它放寬？我忘了那個藥名，為什麼日本他們可以使用，可是在國內的草莓農是不可以使用那些農藥的？我們為了讓日本的草莓可以進口，因為被檢出一次、兩次、三次，結果我們開放日本的草莓農可以使用那三種農藥，可是我們國內的農民是不准的，可見他要使用的時候是必須要有效的，農民要的是有效，你規定是什麼、你叫我用什麼，我都可以，因為他花錢，他不是很愛用農藥，因為那也是要錢，他也是要工，現在要請工還不容易。所以當他們碰到這些困難的時候，希望我們的農政單位、我們的行政單位是幫他們解決問題，而不是製造問題，現在給他們就是非常大的困擾，而且讓他們覺得他們是賊、是被政府防範的。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，農藥實名制在過去幾年推的時候，其實它的滿意度是超過九成的，而且目前每一個農藥行，以前是70%加入而已，現在是100%加入這樣子的一個系統。"],["馬委員文君：部長，那個九成是問誰？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有一個相關的，農藥行本身本來是可以用紙本，也拒絕加入這個東西，然後經過這兩、三年，它現在已經100%都加入我們後面的一個POS系統，表示說……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我剛剛有提到，我是這幾天又特別接到很多農民跟農藥行，他們對……不然我不曉得有這麼多的狀況。今天他們會提出來，是因為你們的調查顯然不符實際的狀況。我們現在特別在這裡要提出來是因為，全世界沒有人這樣做，我們臺灣的教育、臺灣的農業、臺灣的技術各方面都比全球很多的國家還要好，我不相信我們的農民教不會，我們必須要用這樣的方式，採取強勢去要他們個資的方式來限制。我剛剛講了，我原來有五分地，如果賣掉三分地，你也不知道，因為你只登記那一次啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們的個資裡面最重要的是種植作物的品項，種植作物的品項對於後續的用肥用料是需要一些指導的，農藥行可以透過這個方式來指導他。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我再跟您說，因為那個要錢，所以有些人，當我買來說要種筊白筍的時候，我還有剩一些，我就拿去高麗菜上面用了，你也不知道，因為它在高麗菜上面可能不能用。我現在要說的是給農民正確的一個觀念，比你去做這樣的限制，尤其是跟人民拿個資，這是非常嚴重的事情。從我剛才講到現在，有很多對農民的政策並不友善，所以我們今天提出來，是希望我們行政院還有我們農業部，可以就這個部分再去做適時的檢視跟調整。如果可以讓農民更好，如果可以讓我們食安更好，可以讓我們的農藥使用得更好，我相信這是大家都期待的。因為我們當然也不希望吃到很多農藥，可是顯然你那個效果並不是那麼好，所以我們今天特別提出來，是不是可以就這個部分去做調整跟改善？"],["陳部長駿季：我想後續宣導的部分，我們會再來加強，把它的方便性更把它放……就是讓農民在買農藥的時候，他是完全不會有影響，然後反而是對他會有幫助，我們會朝這個目標來努力。"],["馬委員文君：部長，對啦！院長也是，不要跟農民要個資，因為我們士、農、工、商，我們買了千千百百種的東西，甚至有的也都有政府補助，沒有人需要去繳你的個資說我有多少土地，然後我的身分證是什麼，然後我才可以買到我的肥料跟農藥。沒事大家不會買農藥回去喝嘛！所以這個部分，我們還是希望在我們這個自由民主法治的國家，如果這是不恰當的一個政策，我們還是應該適時地調整，因為剛剛我說，其他國家有嗎？顯然好像也沒有特別……"],["陳部長駿季：我們的氣候環境，還有我們作物的多樣性跟其他的國家是完全不一樣的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，全世界有很多國家，我們的氣候、我們的作物多樣性，別的國家都沒有嗎？我們去東南亞，我們有的他們很多也都有啊；像你去中國大陸，他們很多也都有啊；像你去美國、歐洲，有些我們有的他們也有啊，面對氣候的變遷，大家的條件都是同等的，我現在要說的是，這個個資是不是有必要？因為它隨時在調整嘛，可是你們要了農民的個資，到現在我去商家拜訪，還有很多人這樣跟我講，他說：我們是賊嗎？我們會多買回來放嗎？然後那個都要錢啊！所以這個部分，我們從這個角度去看，然後去怎麼樣做更好的一個規劃，讓我們很多的農業農藥或者肥料的使用，讓它更好，我想務實地去做調整會比較好。這個部分，院長有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，第一個，請農業部相關……已經取得的農民個資，務必要安全的保護，絕對不作他用，以維護隱私；第二個，這個實名制應該行之多年，如果我們可以從安全考量、流向去處、價格的穩定，或是用量的建議上，有其他更適當的方式，我請農業部來檢討，有更好的輕政便民的方式，我們朝這個方向來思考。"],["馬委員文君：這個部分，為什麼我會特別一直提個資，一方面就是我相信農業部，我相信我們各部會，我相信行政院，我們相信我們所有的政府部門不會這麼做，可是在必要的時候，好像這個個資全部都流出去了，他的對象很清楚，比如說農民，他就給什麼樣的訊息，這個部分我們特別提出來，是希望可以重新檢視，因為當它如果不斷不斷地發生的時候，對我們民主的國家是一個很大的傷害，不曉得是誰給出去的，可是你沒有辦法控制，他都是商人或者他可能是將本求利，這個部分如果可以不要，你就不應該，這個部分還是希望可以儘快給我們一個結論跟具體的作法，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝，接下來還是針對我們南投縣，因為南投縣的茶葉博覽會，我想部長其實應該也參加過，茶葉其實不只是臺灣重要的一個產業，尤其是南投縣非常重要的產業。老實說過去兩岸關係還不錯的時候，有很多茶葉其實是可以銷到大陸，它的銷售狀況基本上也還不錯，畢竟它的人口就是多，可是近幾年在兩岸關係比較嚴峻的情況之下，所有的限制相對提高，很多的茶種了以後堆得倉庫滿山滿谷，這是很多茶農的心聲。好不容易茶博會在南投縣已經舉辦超過十年以上，而且越來越成功，每年吸引的人數，在官方的統計上面，至少有超過70萬人次，它的商機可能可以在會中或者會後、活動以後去做採購，其實也達到很高的一個銷售額度，可是我們現在看到我們農業部，在過去升格為農業部以後，我們現在協助的經費反而越來越少，其實你只是用很少的錢，可是你創造很大的一個收益，它的性價比其實是非常高的，可是我不知道為什麼你要把它減少，因為這對我們來說，好不容易可以有一個成功的、大家都非常熟悉的一個年度的活動，它可能會造成影響，因為這一次如果沒有這麼多的經費，它可能要縮小規模，這個部分是不是可以在這裡特別請院長跟部長可以多做協助？因為它剛開始設計的規模，大概就是會跟去年、前年一樣，在疫情過後好不容易又恢復了。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，像這個部分，我們一定全力支持，特別是茶博覽會，其實這幾年來已經非常非常有名，我所瞭解，它除了這個計畫之外，它好像還有提另外一個計畫，會後我會去檢視，我們一定讓這個活動順利的舉辦為前提，如果相關的經費真的有不足的地方，我們再看用怎麼樣的方式來協助。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝部長，因為我們現在是希望樂見各個產業真的……有些像觀光產業，現在也都勒緊褲帶，有很多人其實都沒有辦法好好去做生意，對他們來說都是很大的影響，這個部分只要花一點錢就可以，我們還是謝謝部長剛剛的承諾，我們也希望，因為今年很快就要辦了，是不是可以儘快有一個……"],["陳部長駿季：我會請同仁針對實際的部分，看還有怎麼樣的缺口，我們再來想辦法協助。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個活動辦得很好，我們都可以去參加。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝，因為是縣政府主辦，在這裡也代替縣長還有我們所有的茶農，很熱誠的邀請院長還有部長還有所有的部會，大家可以一起去參加。"],["卓院長榮泰：韓院長一起參加。"],["馬委員文君：當然還有我們的院長啦！因為他對南投也非常熟悉，尤其在農業這一塊，歡迎大家，因為就是讓農民更好，不然他們要面對的挑戰也太多了。","另外，還有我們鳥嘴潭人工湖的部分，這個部分經濟部水利署大概斥資202億去建設鳥嘴潭人工湖，它主要的目的當然是為了提供用水，主要是彰化，每日鳥嘴潭人工湖可以提供25萬噸，彰化占了21萬噸，草屯4萬噸。可是在這過程當中，其實南投縣在人工湖的規劃、設計、建造過程當中都非常支持與配合，甚至連用地的取得，地方也都儘量協助，所以它沒有面臨到很大的困難。可是當時的承諾好像有一點變質了，比如那時候希望未來人工湖除了提供用水需求以外，還可以成為臺14線中潭公路很重要的觀光廊帶亮點，可是我們看到它現在快要完工了，本來規劃的青翠毯森林公園空間發展構想就好像沒有下文了，這個部分是不是可以請部長簡要說明一下？"],["陳次長正祺：抱歉，這個我帶回去再去瞭解一下好了，因為我們知道工程沒有問題。"],["馬委員文君：這個跟輸血一樣，當我缺血的時候，你先救我，你輸血給我，以後我會給你買好的營養品幫你補充營養，讓你更好，不會因為你輸血以後就變得很衰弱，可是你做好以後，那個承諾好像不見了，這個部分我們特別希望經濟部可以馬上做檢討，後續應該要怎麼做實質的推動。另外是南投縣的用水，我們的自來水普及率是全國倒數第二，這是不合理的，用了我們所有的資源，可是我們卻受限於倒數第二，這個部分也請經濟部及行政院，請院長特別關注這個部分，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓是很難得來自美國哈佛大學的實習教師，from Harvard University，而且今天的負責人Choetsow是很難得來自西藏出身的女孩，現在在美國哈佛大學，歡迎你來臺灣立法院，歡迎，我們掌聲歡迎。","接下來請登記第5號謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":26,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1136401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.797218750000003,"end":13.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.121593750000002,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.406593750000003,"end":27.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.06471875,"end":37.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.75659375,"end":27.773468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.830968750000004,"end":121.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.52659375,"end":140.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.12284375000002,"end":159.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.73596875,"end":164.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.50721875000002,"end":166.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.31721875000002,"end":166.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.40159375000002,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.97534375,"end":179.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.86346875,"end":199.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.28659375,"end":211.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.80409375000002,"end":211.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.45784375000002,"end":258.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.89846875,"end":227.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.90221875,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.97909375,"end":251.43471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.45471875000004,"end":260.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.60221875,"end":264.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.31471875,"end":298.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.24659375000005,"end":267.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.26346875,"end":267.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.25909375000003,"end":268.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.49534375,"end":268.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.00534375,"end":313.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.76721875000004,"end":311.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.37034375,"end":348.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.07284375,"end":327.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.14096875,"end":355.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.57034375,"end":356.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.98784375,"end":363.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.78846875000005,"end":363.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.80534375,"end":363.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.83909375,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.02471875000003,"end":364.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.12159375000005,"end":366.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.21409375,"end":399.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.86721875,"end":422.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.64409375,"end":439.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.70909375,"end":453.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.82096875,"end":466.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.32221875000005,"end":458.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":466.54034375000003,"end":470.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.48534375,"end":468.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":471.01221875000005,"end":481.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.65221875000003,"end":504.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.05534375,"end":492.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.79596875000004,"end":509.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.48721875,"end":510.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.75284375,"end":527.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":527.6615937500001,"end":541.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.2165937500001,"end":594.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.88659375,"end":573.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.81409375,"end":577.8647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.8647187500001,"end":578.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.80284375,"end":603.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.7509687500001,"end":607.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":608.47596875,"end":610.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.88096875,"end":664.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.44596875,"end":668.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.4497187500001,"end":671.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.34784375,"end":674.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.99721875,"end":677.68034375},{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農業部來說明謝謝委員我在這邊說明就是委員一直在關心這個議題那我也開了很多的相關的一個會議想辦法找到一個可以解決的方法那現在目前就是說"},{"start":180.862,"end":180.942,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":200.399,"end":202.602,"text":"我們要說的不是他有保障,因為這本來就是他應得的。"},{"start":215.86,"end":215.9,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":236.041,"end":257.819,"text":"像他們去申請工商登記他們為什麼去申請工商登記因為那時候政府要求他們必須要做標章的認定他要去申請那個標章所以他產地標章所以就要求一定要工商登記所以他們因為這樣的因素去申請工商登記他就可以"},{"start":258.719,"end":280.8,"text":"還是一樣維持農保的資格。只要跟農業相關有關的,我們會盡量來協助。因為他們是被取消的,這也是在陳情的對象以內,這是第一個。第二個,如果說他們開雜貨店,比如說像過去在很早期3、40年前,甚至4、50年前,比如說像仁愛鄉、像信義鄉、像中寮鄉、南投縣很多的偏鄉,"},{"start":281.661,"end":281.701,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":299.028,"end":319.055,"text":"不是那個雜貨店的部分因為他本身是一個不是只有跟農業有關的還有其他的部分那我還在跟委員說明就是就算他退保他還是可以去加保那如果說年齡比較大的時候我們來爭取我們來懲請的他們都是八九十歲大家可以看到這個九十幾歲的他要加保什麼"},{"start":319.835,"end":347.426,"text":"而且你們要加保的條件是他還必須要到他的地上去實際耕作一個93歲的老人家你叫他說還要再去因為那時候是政府叫他強制納保的這是第一點我再請問一下如果像現在有很多農地被拿去種電他在上面設置相關的那個太陽能那因為太陽能要對要把電賣給台電嘛"},{"start":349.167,"end":349.187,"text":"部長"},{"start":365.148,"end":387.804,"text":"他從事漁業那是地我們剛剛講的這些農民他們也都在他們的土地上面實際從事農業的使用而且真的種了一輩子他們從那時候沒有機械來代替沒有人力資源在沒有水沒有電的情況之下要爬山涉水還要去擔水那個年代他們就從事了農業"},{"start":389.485,"end":389.725,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":409.654,"end":437.393,"text":"在他的雜貨店賣他的他養雞也是農民啦可是當然這個沒有沒有確切的一個農業資格可是像他種植的他的蔬果其實都在自己的門前賣那個那個你們就把它取消了事實上他就是直接都是在從事農業的所以你們的標準很奇怪只要為了配合政府的政策只要跟光電有關的你們居然這個可以他可以他申請工商登記"},{"start":439.794,"end":465.643,"text":"我跟委員,您有一點誤解齁。漁電共生的那個光電業者是不能從事農保的。但是他跟農民合作,農民本身的農保資格不會被取消。所以還是農民對這塊地的一個根據。啊如果香菇農,在他自己的香菇的那個棚架上面,對。那他也必須要賣電,他去申請這樣子的工商登記,那他的資格算不算?"},{"start":466.584,"end":468.045,"text":"部長,你們給農民的解釋,因為在我們的法條上面清清楚楚的寫了"},{"start":487.302,"end":503.746,"text":"你只要從事,實質的從事相關的農業,其實你的農保就會存在,因為你要做這些都是為了要打假農民,可是你把真的農民全部把他們犧牲掉了,你現在在幫他們說,啊我上面種田,他當時說他們不合格的是因為他們辦了工商登記,不可以。"},{"start":510.828,"end":522.679,"text":"所以你現在如果你種了電賣還可以賣電給台電那他的資格還可以我不知道這樣的標準差異在哪裡他們也實際在從容啊這些人都還在他們都有從容啊而且攪了一輩子你們說停就停他什麼都沒有"},{"start":527.743,"end":535.269,"text":"我跟委員 我想委員非常清楚他這個 我們一般對65歲以上的話我們不會主動的去針對這個特別是年紀大的人去查核那最主要是因為當時紓困的時候他們領了這些農民的部分部長 這個都已經不是這個中間過程了我們今天是要講一個公平正義的問題當你們知道這些人是實際一輩子從農而且從年輕到老而且他繳了一輩子的農保的錢"},{"start":557.006,"end":570.548,"text":"可是他只因為他有工商登記他被你取消了你的條例裡面如果就部長剛剛講的只要他的條件其實他是有實際從農他就可以有符合農保的資格這是我們照顧農民"},{"start":572.53,"end":584.335,"text":"而且我們要有這個農保的政策的一個很重要的一個目的結果你現在可以幫他們解釋說如果你在上面因為你種電你賣電給台電那你是可以的那為這些原來的農民真正的農民你們卻不可以這樣的政府是有為有能的嗎"},{"start":595.848,"end":598.609,"text":"而且這個人數並不是很多到目前為止從今年1月到5月總共才404位他們繳了很多錢欸你政府好像在騙他一樣"},{"start":608.867,"end":628.567,"text":"是不是應該要部長不是對我們說明而是你如果真的要照顧農民你們必須解決這個問題當你可以解釋在你的估了上面架設你的光電賣電給台電可以申請工商登記而且這樣符合農保資格當你做這樣解釋的時候你就應該有辦法"},{"start":631.83,"end":631.87,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":652.152,"end":664.664,"text":"這個部分是不是可以請院長跟部長就這個部分去做全面的檢視對這個部分可以有怎麼樣的一個解套的方式來幫助我們真正的這些老農好不好"},{"start":665.712,"end":690.644,"text":"謝謝委員我覺得委員提出的這個觀察不無可以檢討之處我們常常說養殖為本農事為本養殖為本才能夠綠能加值還是要養殖或有從事農事都應該存在如果從這個標準來看它有相關我是建議剛剛我們參佐委員這個講法我們做實質上的檢討或必要解釋跟說明"},{"start":691.144,"end":719.23,"text":"好普遍要照顧到真正在還在從事農事的這些農民朋友們當你的法其實是要當我們這些政策是要照顧農民的時候沒有沒有理由我們用法來犧牲他們或者就把他們自己的權益通通把它斷送掉了而且他是真的講了好幾十年因為你不主要是為了講農民嗎包括剛剛的餘電共生我們的餘電共生大家可以回去檢視看看他事實上他的"},{"start":719.69,"end":719.95,"text":"大概多久的時間?"},{"start":745.003,"end":759.812,"text":"我想我會盡快,因為這個牽涉到一些例外條件的一個設定,因為其實我們研究了非常久,我們也解決了,像你剛才說剩下400多個,其實本來是1萬多個,所以我們有很多包括"},{"start":760.896,"end":763.178,"text":"我們希望可以很快的至少在兩個禮拜之內或一個月之內給我們一些出戶的一個方向"},{"start":790.438,"end":793.122,"text":"另外還有的就是我想要請教的也是跟農民有關的就是我們在採購農藥跟肥料的時候我們為什麼要"},{"start":806.119,"end":810.023,"text":"為什麼我們要做到這樣子?農民買個肥料跟農藥有必要這樣嗎?全世界有哪一個國家有這樣做?民主國家?部長可不可以先讓我們知道一下全世界有哪一個國家這樣做?"},{"start":828.479,"end":829.18,"text":"全世界沒有其他國家這樣做嘛,對不對?"},{"start":855.54,"end":884.806,"text":"就是要各自因為你要身份證我去買個肥料老實說因為我們剛開始這是利益良好就是像剛剛部長提到的我們希望他的農藥殘留量還有我們確保食安的問題就讓他有正確的肥料跟農藥的一個使用的方式可是事實上並不然其實他除了本末倒置或者擾民以外而且讓所有農民都覺得他們像自己像賊"},{"start":885.506,"end":885.546,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":915.586,"end":921.938,"text":"那你是不相信農民,如果你要讓農民有正確的使用肥料跟農藥的這樣子的一個概念,必須從農民教育開始。"},{"start":928.632,"end":957.312,"text":"我要跟委員說明齁榮耀實名制肥大實名制只要第一次去登記的時候需要填這些資料以後你買肥大的話就是用報一個電話號碼就可以了對啊那很奇怪啊因為你的目的部長因為你的目的是希望可以控制用藥嘛就是說我的面積原來可能五分地可是我如果賣掉三分地四分地了咧我還是一樣買那麼多啊所以你那麼那個是多此一舉我現在說的是你必須要根本解決"},{"start":958.052,"end":958.973,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":987.248,"end":1010.261,"text":"太熱太冷其實他用的農藥已經不太適用了而且我們的標準很就是我們可以使用的農藥品項很少當農民他使用無效的時候蟲還是來吃的時候或者他長不出來的時候他可能有兩種情況第一種就是違規使用"},{"start":1011.221,"end":1011.261,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1036.476,"end":1055.179,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1055.98,"end":1073.361,"text":"我要跟委員說明就是說整個的一個農藥肥料的施用我們的宣導持續透過教育訓練第二個部分就是剛才您所說的就是透過因為在實名制裡面他種的東西是會被呈現的那這樣子農藥行這些人就可以給他一個比較正確的一個建議"},{"start":1074.804,"end":1088.247,"text":"部長這些就是農民跟農藥行跟我的建議因為我們不是第一年實施他已經實施一段時間有些藥就是不行比如說為什麼日本進口的草莓我們要給他放寬為什麼日本他們可以使用我忘了那個藥名可是在國內的草莓農是不可以使用那些農藥的"},{"start":1097.849,"end":1124.316,"text":"我們為了讓日本的草莓可以進口因為被檢出一次兩次三次結果我們開放日本的草莓農可以使用那幾樣的三種吧那三種農藥可是我們國內的農民是不准的那可見他要使用的時候他有很多必須要有效農民要的是有效你規定是什麼你叫我用什麼我都可以因為他花錢他不是很愛用農藥欸因為那也是要錢欸"},{"start":1126.817,"end":1127.117,"text":"我跟..."},{"start":1145.981,"end":1146.181,"text":"部長,那個九成是問誰?"},{"start":1158.837,"end":1160.959,"text":"我剛剛有提到我是這幾天又特別接到很多的農民跟農藥行他們"},{"start":1182.555,"end":1203.15,"text":"今天他們會提出來是因為顯然你們的調查不符實際的一個狀況。我們現在特別在這裡要提出來是因為全世界沒有人這樣做。我們台灣的教育、台灣的農業、台灣的技術各方面都比全球很多很多的國家還要好。"},{"start":1203.951,"end":1229.46,"text":"我不相信我們的農民教不會我們必須要用這樣的方式要採取要去強勢要他們的個資的方式來限制我幫他講啦我本來五分地我如果賣掉三分地你也不知道啊因為你只登記那一次啊我跟你講我們的個資裡面最重要的是他種植的作物的品項那種植作物的品項對於後續的用肥用料是需要一些指導農藥行可以透過這個方式來指導他部長我再跟您說因為那個要錢"},{"start":1232.961,"end":1233.342,"text":"我現在要說的是給農民正確的一個觀念,"},{"start":1249.341,"end":1270.995,"text":"比你去做這樣的限制尤其跟人民拿個資這是非常嚴重的事情尤其是跟農民從我剛才講到現在有很多對農民的政策並不友善所以我們今天提出來是希望我們行政院還有我們農業部可以就這個部分再去做事實的一個檢視跟調整如果可以讓農民更好如果可以讓我們食安更好可以讓我們的農藥使用可以更好"},{"start":1276.738,"end":1302.866,"text":"我相信這是大家都期待的因為我們當然不希望我們吃到很多農藥可是顯然你那個效果並不是那麼好所以我們今天特別提出來是不是可以就這個部分去做調整跟改善我想後續的宣導的部分我們會再來加強然後把它的方便性更把它放就是讓農民在買農藥的時候他是完全不會有影響然後反而是對他會有幫助我們會朝這個目標來努力"},{"start":1304.609,"end":1318.009,"text":"院長也是,不要跟農民要各自,因為我們是農工商,我們買了千千百百種的東西,甚至也都有政府補助的,沒有人需要"},{"start":1318.59,"end":1318.89,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1334.802,"end":1334.962,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1352.833,"end":1352.873,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1382.182,"end":1382.342,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1403.049,"end":1428.941,"text":"報告委員第一個請農業部相關已經取得的這個農民的個資務必要安全的保護絕對不做他用維護隱私第二個這個實名制應該行之多年如果我們可以從安全考量流向去處價格的穩定或是用量的建議上有其他更適當的方式我請農業部來檢討有更好的親政變名的方式我們朝這個方向來思考"},{"start":1429.261,"end":1447.351,"text":"好這個部分因為為什麼我們特別一直提個資一方面就是我相信農業部我相信我們各部會我們相信行政院我們相信我們所有政府部門不會這麼做可是在必要的時候好像這個個資全部都流出去了他的對象很清楚"},{"start":1447.751,"end":1447.791,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":1472.512,"end":1472.532,"text":"謝謝委員長。"},{"start":1488.689,"end":1505.065,"text":"部長其實應該也參加過那茶葉其實不只是臺灣重要的一個產業尤其是南投縣非常重要的產業那近幾年過去老實說兩岸關係還不錯的時候有很多茶葉其實可以銷到大陸"},{"start":1506.286,"end":1506.386,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1522.546,"end":1522.626,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1550.948,"end":1551.148,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1576.212,"end":1576.272,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1594.977,"end":1609.392,"text":"他可能要縮小規模,這個部分是不是可以在這裡特別請院長跟部長可以多做協助,因為他剛開始設計的規模大概就是會跟去年前年一樣嘛,在疫情過後好不容易又恢復了。"},{"start":1610.986,"end":1633.791,"text":"我跟委員說明,像這個部分我們一定全力支持,特別是查柏蘭會其實在這幾年來已經非常非常有名。然後我所了解就是說他除了這個計畫以外他好像還有提另外一個計畫。那我會後我會去檢視,就是我們一定讓這個活動順利的舉辦為前提。那如果說相關的經費如果真的是有不足的地方我們再看怎麼樣的方式來協助。"},{"start":1634.571,"end":1662.859,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝部長因為我們現在是希望樂見各個產業真的有些像觀光產業其實現在都勒緊褲帶有很多人其實都沒有辦法好好的去做生意那對我對他們來說都是很大的影響那如果這個部分只要花一點錢就可以那我們還是謝謝部長剛剛的承諾那我們也希望說今年因為很快就要辦了嘛是不是可以盡快有一個"},{"start":1664.079,"end":1677.742,"text":"我會請同仁就是說實際的部分看還有怎麼樣的一個缺口,我們再來想辦法協助。他們這個活動辦得很好,我們都可以去參加。好,謝謝。代替縣長,因為縣政府主辦,那在這裡也代替縣長還有我們所有的我們的茶農,很熱誠的邀請院長還有部長還有所有的部會,大家可以一起去參加。"},{"start":1688.505,"end":1708.454,"text":"當然還有我們的院長因為他也非常熟悉對南投尤其在農業這一塊那歡迎大家因為就是讓農民更好因為不然他們要面對的挑戰也太多了另外就是還有我們鳥嘴壇人工湖的部分"},{"start":1709.114,"end":1709.314,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":1726.366,"end":1752.175,"text":"每日鳥嘴壇人工湖可以提供25萬噸。章化站的21萬噸。草屯4萬噸。可是在這過程當中其實南投縣在人工湖的規劃設計建造的過程當中其實都非常的支持跟配合。甚至連用地的取得地方也都盡量協助。所以他其實沒有面臨到很大的困難。"},{"start":1752.895,"end":1774.095,"text":"可是現在當時的承諾好像有一點變質了。比如說那時候有說在希望未來這個人工湖除了是這樣子的一個用水的需求以外還可以成為台14線就是我們中壇公路一個很重要的一個觀光廊帶的一個亮點。"},{"start":1775.396,"end":1794.185,"text":"可是我們看到就是說他現在快要完工了那本來規劃的一個這個叫青翠潭森林公園空間發展構想就好像沒有下文了這個部分是不是可以請部長簡要的說明一下"},{"start":1795.612,"end":1805.5,"text":"抱歉抱歉委員這個我待會去再去了解一下好了因為我們還是知道這個因為當時這個跟輸血一樣啊我在欠貨的時候你有說先給我救啊然後你血輸給我以後我會給你買好的營養品給你補充營養讓你更好不會因為你輸血以後然後就變得很衰弱可是你做好以後那個承諾好像不見了這個部分我們特別希望我們經濟部可以馬上"},{"start":1823.254,"end":1824.576,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長的"}]}},{"id":"154390","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154390","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68ab32d8d3e5edc309d6cd03fb23edab3c9d6e0c0b79bf482f9a00f58aa63e905615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:59:29 - 11:15:35","影片長度":"00:16:06","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T10:59:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T11:15:35+08:00","duration":966,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":830,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時59分）立法院韓院長、各位列席官員，大家好。請主席請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：顏委員好！"],["顏委員寬恒：院長好！院長，這是我們第一次的總質詢，我想在這邊跟院長討論一些民生議題，首先是電價的部分，我想請教卓院長的態度，台電從4月1號開始調漲電價，許多的房東也跟著調漲租金，電價從每度5元、6元至7元漲幅是20%到40%。政府是一體的，前內政部林右昌部長曾經允諾要修租屋定型化契約，明定出租人收取之電費不可以超出該租賃標的之每期電費總額，原來說5日就可以上路，但是如今卻跳票了；上次也有委員在這邊問到這個問題，院長您的回復說7月就會上路。我想民眾都非常的關心，尤其是青年學子、租屋族，是不是可以請院長簡單地說明一下現在的進度為何？我知道今天內政部部長沒有來，如果院長不清楚沒關係，但是請你說明一下對這件事情的態度。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，感謝委員對這個議題的重視，內政部林前部長所定的方向是正確的，我記得前一陣子劉部長在這裡答復的時候，他說會把後續完成；現在我會馬上跟內政部聯繫，叫他再定一個時間，向社會公告……"],["顏委員寬恒：期程，就是7月會不會上路？因為上一次你說7月可能就會上路。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們一定在這個時程完成。"],["顏委員寬恒：今天已經6月28日了。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為早一天完成，就是保障更多租屋者的安全……"],["顏委員寬恒：對、對、對，電價是全民關心的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝！"],["顏委員寬恒：尤其是青年學子、租屋族，因為現在生活成本非常地高，電價一漲所有物價都會漲。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：那麼我們儘早邀請各部會針對租屋定型化契約的內容條款進行討論，好好把關就是對租屋族早一日的保障。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員！"],["顏委員寬恒：接下來我再請教，跟您討論的是我們中部民眾的需求，也要讓院長更加瞭解本席的選區，整個大臺中市、中部地區的用電需求，最大的火力發電廠在龍井，院長能不能承諾，臺中海線居民的用電需求是不是應該更受到保障？"],["卓院長榮泰：台中火力發電廠很長的時間一直是主力啊！現在我們持續把它改換成燃氣，希望有一天對地方的衝擊會小一點，當然它也穩定周遭的供電，甚至提供臺灣其他地區的穩定供電系統。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，這就是我要跟你討論的，現在火力發電廠在臺中有10部燃煤機組，正在興建2座燃氣機組，未來還要再興建4座燃氣機組，拆除4座燃煤機組，保留6部作緊急備用發電；儲氣槽的部分，從現在的5座要再增加4座，這是經濟部的部分，中火要增加9座燃氣機組。","我先聲明就是，一路以來我都支持用燃氣替代燃煤，因為可以減輕燃煤的污染，當地的鄉親也樂見用燃氣來取代，但是必須要實質地換，在備載能量不足的情況之下，燃煤隨時都可能會上場，民眾的疑慮就是我的疑慮，燃煤會不會變成常態？可能就會變成未拆除的6部燃煤機組在緊急的狀態之下隨時都會啟動，那就變成6加6部發電機組，原有的550萬瓩的發電量，現在用6部燃氣機組來取代變成810萬瓩，再加上備用的這6部燃煤機組，那麼臺中、中部整個空氣污染的情況會雪上加霜，也會更加嚴重。","因為0403的大地震，許多的電廠機組跳機面臨震後檢修，大潭、明潭電廠也無預警的故障、跳脫，備載容量過低，緊急向民間電廠購電，我擔心在供電網韌性不足的情況之下，我們原有備用的6部燃煤機組緊急使用會變成常態。院長，你可不可以針對緊急備用的構成要件在這邊說明？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，報告委員，所謂緊急備用的機組，因為緊急備用，所以絕不輕言啟動。"],["顏委員寬恒：什麼條件之下？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們也看不到任何必須考慮它緊急啟動的條件，目前都看不到。我們只說讓燃氣機組的時程能夠如期完成，甚至做更多其他多元的綠能發展等等，我們覺得這樣是滿足現在的需求。當然我們對於輸配電整個電網的韌性還要加強，經濟部已經投注相當多時間。"],["顏委員寬恒：我再請教，不只是中火5加9座儲存槽，中油在臺中港區現有的6座，2022年動工，26年要完工的2座，再加上外港區擴建4座，總共是12座，中油12座，中火9座，總共21座。未來整個臺中港有21座天然氣儲存槽，從戰略的角度來看，大家知道雞蛋不能放在一個籃子裡，不管是受到天災的影響、海運的影響，或者是兩岸局勢的影響，一旦發生任何危機將不堪設想。臺中港的居民、整個海線的居民生活在水深火熱當中、危機四伏，院長可不可以替當地的民眾考慮一下？你們應該召集各部會協商，研究怎麼樣修正、怎麼樣分散管理、怎麼樣讓儲氣槽能夠在整個中部地區分散建置，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我們現在全力開發第三接收站，明年應該可以進行初期的使用。"],["顏委員寬恒：是在哪裡？可不可以告訴我在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：請次長答復。"],["陳次長正祺：桃園會有第三接收站，現在工程進度都如……"],["顏委員寬恒：我想要知道真的需要那麼多嗎？2加6加4，5加9，加起來21座都放在臺中港。既然桃園要做三接，這樣子臺中難道不能減少嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：其實我們未來希望燃氣50%為主軸，加上綠能30%，燃煤可以降到20%，以氣代煤是長期的政策。"],["顏委員寬恒：剛剛一開始我就說贊成增加燃氣，減少燃煤，但是我們從戰略的角度來看，你把21座儲存槽通通放在臺中港，臺中港不是杳無人煙，臺中港是海線人口最精華的地方。我今天在這邊提出來，要讓院長、部長真正知道臺中港現有的狀況，我也樂見院長、部長一起到臺中港。我相信你們也去過，但是近期整個城市的發展使得人口增加，這個可能是你們沒有考慮到的，所以我才想在這邊要求院長，並反映整個臺中港的狀況以及民眾的心聲、危機感，希望你們考量，跨部會研究是不是該減少或者該怎麼分散，可不可以？院長可以不可以跟部長在一個月之內給我……"],["卓院長榮泰：臺中的接收站我們就是考慮到它已經飽和，同時它也沒有能量再多負擔其他的，所以才全力開發第三接收站。"],["顏委員寬恒：你擔不擔心工安事故或者是其他的不特定因素導致危機發生？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在臺中的電廠或是其他的天然氣接收站，我認為經濟部跟所屬的中油、台電都必須強力維護它的安全……"],["顏委員寬恒：當然，沒有錯。好，我們就拿中火來看，中火在22年10月還有23年11月，煤倉還有輸煤帶多次發生火災。21座天然氣儲氣槽，假設在興建過程或者未來營運管理的過程當中發生任何工安意外，或者是因為極端氣候發生任何不可預測的狀況，勢必對整個地區、整個臺中港造成無法預估的災難。所以我才提出來，希望院長考量，不要讓民眾生活在無比的、危機四伏的壓力之下，可不可以？"],["陳次長正祺：我們可以把臺中港儲槽在工安方面所做的努力，在會後送個書面報告給委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。但是我要提醒，中火也是大家關注的，中火也常常發生工安事件，昨天又一例，又是它的輸煤帶發生了狀況，工人當下就過世了。"],["陳次長正祺：對，我們感到很遺憾。"],["顏委員寬恒：當然我們都很遺憾，我是提醒，儲氣槽這些東西未來不堪也不可以發生任何的工安意外。","再來我想請教，剛剛院長、次長都提到2025年燃氣的比例要高達50%，但是依照目前的期程來看，應該是穩定跳票中，目前的占比是39.57%，本席不想跟你討論能源政策，民眾要的是穩定、便宜的電，但是你們做的是成本昂貴、受到不確定因素影響程度高的電，你們有你們的政策規劃，甚至於背後有特定的能源廠商，民眾想管也管不了，但是現況就是不符合民意，這一點十分明確。我要強調，除了發電來源之外，加強變電所還有輸配電端的設備品質的維護更加重要，並以配電為核心，布建分散式的能量，加強電網韌性，減少超高壓變電所及電網的擴充，將重心放在電力需求面的管理。目前已經進入夏日用電高峰期，很多地區無預警的停電也變成常態，像昨天板橋又發生了無預警的大跳電，我不曉得這一次是松鼠、鴿子，還是什麼小動物是跳電的元兇，又要把責任推給牠們。我要告訴大家，民眾在毫無防備的情況之下遭到這樣的情況，輕則家電設備損壞，重則廠商、公司的生產線停擺，機械設備整組壞掉，行政院一直強調臺灣不缺電，是電網不夠強韌，電網過於老舊，會造成整區大跳電，我現在想要請教，台電的強化電網韌性計畫未來十年要投入5,645億，是整體為臺灣電網把脈的強韌計畫，但是我看到其中臺中市兩年占不到50億，1,000億裡面不到5%，要全面提升供電穩定，中火最大的電廠在臺中，臺中市人口第二多，但是整個把脈的強韌計畫，還有老舊電網更新的預算配比占不到5%，這是不是很可笑？我不曉得是什麼原因會讓臺中市的占比這麼小。臺中市尤其是海線是鹽害重點防治區，中火在這裡，污染也在這裡，更應該增加更多的配電設備、紅外線的檢測還有各項的預防的巡視，及早發現設備的老舊、疲乏、弱點，然後來安排更換，避免因事故發生停電或造成更大的危險，這才是重點。我想請教院長，能不能要求台電承諾加強海線的電力維護？可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，跟委員報告，十年花5,645億的這件事情，我跟郭部長曾經討論過，我希望能夠縮短時程，提高效率，做得更快、更多，我們如果能夠縮短時程，或許可以節省更多的經費，那我們願意用獎勵的措施，鼓勵所有的人來節省，來提早完成這件事情，所以整個的內容應該會重新調整。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，院長，我在這裡有三個重點，我再跟你說一下，第一個就是我剛剛提到海線是鹽害的重點區域，這部分要加強防鹽害設備，加強礙子清洗；第二、本席的選區也就是中火的所在地，電纜、電線地下化的比率要提高，為什麼要地下化？就是地下化才能減少鹽害侵蝕這些輸配電設備，院長，這是非常重要的；第三、中火在海線、在臺中，但是臺中市市民常常深受停電之苦，這是非常諷刺的，我想拜託院長檢討台電對海線居民的用電保障，這三點非常的重要。我知道時間有限，那我在這邊也要跟院長說明一下，下一次的交通組質詢我也會跟你再做更詳細的報告，就是臺中大肚的和美大橋，它可以銜接國道3號、和美交流道，但現在的問題就是，大肚溪端……"],["卓院長榮泰：大肚和……"],["顏委員寬恒：大肚端的交通會變成一個非常嚴重的瓶頸，這個部分我會把計畫、在下一次的交通組質詢我會更詳盡地提出，但是希望，因為也需要經濟部的支持，我們要利用防汛道路、利用堤防這邊做為疏散大肚區居民南北交通的一個重要路線，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，再請委員指教。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長的備詢。麻煩一下經濟部就把顏委員所索取的資料送給顏委員，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第4號馬文君委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":26,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟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空氣污染的情況會雪上加霜也會更加嚴重"},{"start":280.572,"end":292.811,"text":"那因為0403的大地震許多的電廠基礎跳機那面臨震後檢修大潭電廠、明潭電廠也無意境的故障跳脫"},{"start":295.253,"end":312.565,"text":"拜載容量過低緊急向民間電廠購電我擔心在這個供電網任性不足的情況之下我們原有的備用的六部燃煤機組會緊急使用變成常態院長你可不可以針對緊急備用的構成要件在這邊說明"},{"start":313.986,"end":340.53,"text":"報告委員所謂緊急備用的機組所以緊急備用所以絕不輕嚴啟動現在我們也看不到任何條件必須去考慮到它這個緊急啟動的這個條件目前都看不到我們只說對這個燃氣機組的時程能夠讓它如期完成甚至做更多其他多元綠能的發展等等目前我們覺得這樣是滿足現在的需求的"},{"start":341.449,"end":367.368,"text":"當然我們對於輸配電的整個電網的韌性還要加強,這個經濟部已經投注了相當多的時間。我再請教,不只是中火的5加9座的這個儲存槽,這個中火的部分,現有的6座,台中港區現有的6座,2022年動工的26年要完工的2座,再加上外港區擴建4座,總共就是12座。"},{"start":368.485,"end":395.556,"text":"中油的部分12座,中火的部分9座,總共21座。未來整個台中港有21座的天然氣儲存槽。從戰略的角度來看,大家要知道,雞農不能放在港前啊。不管是受到天候的影響,海運的影響,或者是兩岸局勢的影響,一旦發生任何的危機,將不堪設想。台中港居民,整個海線的居民,生活在水深火熱當中危機四伏。"},{"start":396.479,"end":415.519,"text":"院長您可不可以替我們當地的民眾考慮一下應該召集各部會去做一個協商做一個研究要怎麼樣去修正怎麼樣的分散管理怎麼樣的讓主計朝的部分能夠在整個中部地區做一個分散的建制可不可以"},{"start":416.327,"end":433.883,"text":"所以我們現在全力在開發第三接收站明年他就應該有可以初期的使用是在哪裡請問可不可以告訴我在哪裡在桃園桃園這邊會有第三接收站那個東西就現在工程進度都我想要知道就是真的需要那麼多嗎"},{"start":435.435,"end":438.216,"text":"其實我們未來希望以燃氣為50%為主軸那麼加上這個綠能30%燃煤可以降到20%以氣代煤這是長期的政策"},{"start":460.233,"end":477.185,"text":"我贊成我剛剛一開始我就說我贊成我增加燃氣減少燃煤但是我們從戰略的角度來看你把21座的儲存槽通通放在台中港台中港不是鳥無人煙台中港是海線人口最精華的地方"},{"start":478.397,"end":493.445,"text":"所以我就是今天在這邊提出來要讓院長部長讓你們真正知道臺中港的現有的狀況我也樂見院長部長一起來到臺中港我相信你們也去過但是近期的發展整個城市的發展"},{"start":494.656,"end":494.676,"text":"﹚顏寬恒"},{"start":515.126,"end":542.931,"text":"議員長可不可以跟部長一個月之內給我一個...我們就是考慮到他已經飽和而同時他也沒有能量再多負擔其他所以才去全力的開發...那你擔不擔心公安事故或者是其他的不特定因素危機的發生?就現狀在台中的電廠或是他的天然氣的接收站我認為經濟部跟所屬中油台電都必須強力去維護他的安全當然啊沒有錯好我們就拿中油來看啦齁"},{"start":545.872,"end":569.694,"text":"中火在22年的10月還有23年的11月它的那個梅倉還有梅倉對不對還有那個蘇梅的那個蘇梅袋也都多次發生火災那我們儲氣槽"},{"start":571.48,"end":595.735,"text":"天然氣儲氣槽21座假設在興建的過程或是未來營運管理的過程當中發生任何公安的意外或者是因為極端氣候或者發生了任何不可預測的狀況那勢必對整個地區整個台中港發生的無法無法預估會發生什麼樣的災難所以我才在這邊提出來希望院長做一個考量"},{"start":596.716,"end":623.149,"text":"那不要讓我們的民眾生活在這種無比的壓力之下危機四伏的壓力之下可不可以我們可以把這個我們在台中港除潮這方面所做的公安方面的努力在會後送個書名報告給委員但是我要提醒啦就是說中火也是大家關注的那中火他也常常發生這些公安昨天昨天又一例昨天又一例又是他的書沒帶"},{"start":624.468,"end":624.848,"text":"剛剛院長提到了就是"},{"start":647.062,"end":672.259,"text":"部長您也提到燃氣的比例要高達50%2025但是依照目前的期程來看應該是穩定跳票中目前的比例佔比是39.57本期不想跟你討論這個能源政策民眾要的是穩定便宜的電但是你們做的是成本昂貴受到不確定因素影響程度高的電"},{"start":673.311,"end":687.944,"text":"您們有您們的政策規劃甚至於背後有特定的能源廠商民眾想管也管不了但是現況就是不符合民意這一點十分明確那我要強調就是說除了發電來源之外"},{"start":689.718,"end":707.434,"text":"加強變電所還有輸配電端的設備品質的維護更加重要,並以配電為核心,部件分散式的能量加強電網的韌性,減少超高壓變電所及電網的擴充,將重心放在電力需求面的管理。"},{"start":708.134,"end":733.261,"text":"目前已經進入夏日的用電高峰期那很多地區無預警的停電也是變成常態像昨天板橋又發生了大跳電無預警的大跳電那我不曉得這一次是碰氣還是魂叫還是什麼又是什麼小動物變成這個跳電的元兇又要把責任推給他們我要告訴大家就是說"},{"start":734.201,"end":737.444,"text":"民眾在毫無防備的情況之下遭受到這樣的情況,輕則家電設備損壞,重則這個廠商公司的生產線停擺。"},{"start":745.299,"end":768.016,"text":"一切設備整組排料料那我們行政院一直強調說臺灣不缺電是電網不夠強韌電網過於老舊那會造成整區大跳電我現在想要請教就是說臺電的強化電網韌性計畫未來10年要投入5645億是整體臺灣電網把脈的強硬計畫但是我看到這裡面臺中市"},{"start":774.555,"end":797.831,"text":"兩年占不到50億一千億裡面不到5%那要全面提升供電穩定你中火最大的電廠在台中台中是人口第二大但是整個把脈的強硬計畫還有老舊電網更新的這些預算配比占不到5%"},{"start":799.486,"end":816.134,"text":"這是不是很可笑?我不曉得是什麼原因會讓台中市的占比這麼小?台中市尤其是海線是沿海重點的防治區。中國在這裡,污染也在這裡。更應該增加更多的配電設備、紅外線的檢測還有各項的這樣的一個預防的巡視。及早發現設備的老舊"},{"start":822.796,"end":846.401,"text":"的疲乏弱點然後來安排更換避免因事故發生停電或者是造成更大的危險這才是重點我想請教院長能不能要求臺電承諾加強海線的電力維護可不可以謝謝委員跟委員報告10年花5645億的這件事情我跟郭部長曾經討論過我希望能夠縮短時程"},{"start":848.194,"end":851.255,"text":"院長,我在這裡有三個重點,我再跟你說一下。第一個就是我剛剛提到海線是沿海的重點區域。"},{"start":875.52,"end":893.746,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":897.669,"end":908.765,"text":"第三點火力化電廠中火在海線在台中但是台中市民常常深受停電之苦停電之苦"},{"start":909.406,"end":936.571,"text":"這是非常諷刺的這三點我想要拜託院長檢討臺電對海線居民的用電保障這三點非常的重要我在時間有限那我在這邊也要跟院長跟你說明一下下一次的交通組我也會跟你再做更詳細的報告就是臺中大渡的和美大橋它可以銜接我們的國道3號和美交流道但是現在的問題大渡端的"},{"start":939.377,"end":966.408,"text":"謝謝顏寬"}]}},{"id":"154389","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154389","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68ae591c98612fdae356cd03fb23edab3c9d6e0c0b79bf482f9bb9a8a83aa9af3e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:43:26 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10:59:19","影片長度":"00:15:53","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T10:43:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T10:59:19+08:00","duration":953,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":780,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時43分）謝謝主席，我請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["蘇委員清泉：第一階段請經濟部，第二階段請農業部。"],["主席：現在要請經濟部備詢嗎？蘇委員，現在請經濟部？"],["蘇委員清泉：是。謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩請經濟部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，卓院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["蘇委員清泉：這兩天我到恆春，因為我常去核三廠，核三廠我差不多去過一、二十趟，核三廠的廠長我們都很熟稔，我去核三廠旁邊叫做大光里，大光里那裡一個議員的阿嬤過世，我就和這些民意代表、鄉長，恆春半島四個鄉鎮的鄉長跟一些主席，也有藍的也有綠的，他們討論後的結果，只有兩個，我想院長你要注意聽一下。他們說，我們在這裡和這個核三廠為鄰三十多年了，我們都沒意見，我們都同意延役，我們要的是什麼？他們要的是他們的福利要比較好，他們要的是他們的醫療要好一點的。譬如說我們恆春旅遊醫院，蘇貞昌那個時候將它改成旅遊醫院，他們希望能改回來部立醫院，請卓院長考慮一下，因為他們覺得旅遊醫院太狹隘了，醫院的存在就是要給當地居民使用，醫院有80%是服務當地的居民，外來、旅遊等有突發狀況的部分差不多占20%而已，所以他們希望改回來。他們有一個質疑就是：我們在這裡和核三廠這樣共伴三、四十年了，我們都沒有意見，評比也都不錯，也有做過兩次問卷調查，差不多有76%以上的百姓都沒有反對，都同意它延役，我們都沒意見，你們臺北這麼多意見，到底是在做什麼？","第二個，有一個部分更加嚴重，這個核三廠土地徵收是600公頃，圍起來的是400公頃，院長，你可能也不知道。現在這兩個爐子剛好在左邊角落，那裡占的面積很小，在那400公頃的土地上，現在光電業者已經迫不及待的在整理這些有草的地方，要去蓋光電板了，他們覺得為什麼這麼急，到底民進黨是跟光電業掛多深、到底是欠人家多少，還是到底是拿了多少？這是他們的質疑。關於這兩點，院長稍微思考一下，這是我替他們反映，這不是藍的、不是綠的，是在地的鄉親長輩講的。","請看下一張，這就是我們屏東車城的這塊地，你有看到嗎？這一大片以前是統一的，光電業卻弄成這樣，都是風飛沙，全部都「糜糜卯卯」。來，這是我們蘇貞昌說的屏鵝公路、最美麗的風景線，這樣叫最美麗的風景線？這種場地這麼大，或者是核三廠400公頃都蓋上光電板，所產生的電力一年差不多是三點多億度，那核三廠兩個爐子的產電量一年差不多一百七十幾億度，連尾數都不到，那如果要取代核三廠兩個爐子產生的電，這一種規模的差不多要60座，我們有那麼多的土地能接受這樣的蹂躪嗎？你再來看看，這個是我們內埔的東勢村、東片村，我都去看了，這在20年以後要怎麼復原？院長，這都是鋪水泥，有的都是砂石，就這樣弄下去，所以不是用那個壞的地，有的是不錯的地，像我們現在講的農一、農二，連農二也是這樣搞，所以要好好的考慮，不能這樣搞。","剛才我們賴士葆委員說得很辛苦，我看院長也是涼涼的回答他，我覺得大家都是為了臺灣好，大家都希望臺灣好，都希望我們臺灣可以往下發展，那核三廠除役要建一個最大的光電區，我剛才也跟院長報告，400公頃全部蓋滿也才三點多億度電，太少了！你看看這塊600公頃的地這麼漂亮，被徵收，然後把400公頃圍起來，所以我在這邊很誠懇的呼籲行政院。郭部長今天不在，我是很欽佩他，很尊敬他，他是一個業者、一個大老闆、一個董事長，賺了很多錢，跑來這裡當經濟部長，想要好好的發揮，一下子說不缺電，一下子說缺電，一下子說要核能，一下子說不要核能，一直轉來轉去，我覺得很失望。對於我們卓院長協調的能力，大家都很稱讚，所以我們是有條件來支持核三延役。"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個跟委員報告，核電廠40年的壽命是當時政府跟人民的契約，我們必須在這個信賴原則底下去做依法該做的事情，當然有相關的法律可以去做調整。不過，現在跟委員報告的是，依照核管法施行細則第十六條，整個除役25年，這個核三廠是不能做其他……流程要走25年，除役的流程才會走完，在這個過程當中，它不可以做其他不相關的使用，剛剛說的那個只是在廠區的外圍。另外，屏東有多處林相不佳的地區，現在因為整個考慮，它會回復做農用，但是有一些地力不佳的，它只要不是敏感地區，也不具有生態棲息地，將來還是有考慮做光電來使用，但是林相不佳的會回復，這個請委員提供資料，我們共同檢討，這個都是好的方向。"],["蘇委員清泉：台電昨天有提出一個，就是說如果在2點到10點自己停電1小時，1個月給他獎勵48塊獎勵金，我如果用醫生的立場，說這種話，這個可能要吃藥了，有這種荒唐的想法嗎？次長。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，這種需量反應台電已經做了幾十年，都是跟企業、用電大戶做，現在是推到住家去，是自願性的立場，這個是美國、日本都在做，如果要引進綠能的時候，本來這個需量的調節……如果像現在美國在做的，電動車的電也可以灌回給電網，這是一個試辦的性質，這不是說……"],["蘇委員清泉：核三廠只要降載，一部一號機降載的話，屏東市也跳電，小琉球也跳電，南港也跳電，板橋也跳電，總有一大堆理由，像松鼠、蛇、鳥等等，每一次講的理由都是荒誕不羈啦！聽起來都是很荒唐的，這個不要再當理由了啦！"],["陳次長正祺：這個是因為……"],["蘇委員清泉：小琉球20年，在連戰那個時代，第一條海底電纜過去，現在已經兩條了，用電量太大了，不夠嘛！所以跳電嘛！"],["陳次長正祺：是，所以配電系統我們現在已經盤點，第一個，人口成長很快；第二個，負載增加很多；第三個，設備比較老舊的會優先來更換它的配電系統。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們屏東有山、有水、有土地，屏東有水、有電，希望台積電！現在呢？有水，沒電，沒有台積電。今天台積電打臉我們，說它不願意來了，本來要來做封裝測試廠，我們很疼惜這塊土地，屏東的水很多，像伏流水、隘寮溪、二峰圳、東港溪，光是東港溪攔河堰一天就抽二十幾萬噸去高雄，高屏溪攔河堰也差不多抽30萬噸，伏流水一天可以有80萬噸，我非常深入去瞭解，跟屏科大教授。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，屏東很美麗，不會沒電啦！水也很多。"],["蘇委員清泉：核三廠停下來就缺電了，恆春半島的人們的想法，院長，我今天跟你說，你要聽進去。請經濟部回座，再來請農業部。這個中間我插播一下，我昨天晚上接到簡訊說食藥署長今天換人，昨天我們邱部長還在講說空穴來風，到底是怎樣？院長，食藥署吳署長。"],["卓院長榮泰：所有部會對其所屬主管的人事調動，我們都尊重部長，昨天他應該是在還沒有完成整個程序之前，所以他不想在那個時候做任何的證實，我想我體諒他的心情，也希望大家能夠瞭解，但是他應該是在完成程序之後，就照既定的程序來走。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我們農業部這邊，我這裡要肯定一下農業部長，還有我們的漁業署張署長，院長，我當你的面稱讚他們，我們上次去看屏東生技園區的雞蛋銷毀情況，當時楊瓊瓔、我還有民眾黨張啓楷，我們對陳部長非常讚賞，因為他勇敢面對任何的事實，然後勇於承擔，而且都說實在話，說實在話很重要，我很不愛聽人家「烏龍踅桌」，所以陳部長，我要對你再次肯定。但是這次黑鮪魚的事情處理得不好，漁業署張署長，你要不要上來一下？不用？對於黑鮪魚轉成內銷，這十幾年來價格都還不錯，但是因為中西太平洋漁業委員會限制我們1年1,965公噸嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：1,965公噸。"],["蘇委員清泉：一千九百六十五公噸。所以抓到那裡就要停了，結果在那中間只有拍賣那一天叫人來作秀，然後叫廠商來相挺，1公斤拍賣一萬零三百塊，喔！天價！第一尾是三百多公斤，賣了三百多萬。但是從隔天開始，1公斤剩800、600，一直掉、掉、掉，掉到最後剩1公斤80、100，漁民向我反映、對我「姦撟」，我當天就通知部長和署長，他們馬上處理，結果處理得不漂亮啦！部長，那要怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，因為我們有配額，所以過往我們到90%把資訊提供給漁民的時候，那個時間太短了，因為時間太短，有一些漁船已經出海，要去抓也不是，不抓也賠錢，所以這個部分我們的檢討就是，未來整個配額的分配先用時段來分配，分配的時候我們會加強我們整個通報的數量。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，一千九百六十五噸很少欸！"],["陳部長駿季：對啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：還有鬼頭刀一萬六千多噸欸，還有大目鮪魚七萬多噸欸！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，端午節之前的黑鮪魚本身品質比較好，所以我們會利用這樣的調控，讓漁民知道他的時間點，跟他抓的數量。"],["蘇委員清泉：一整年漁汛期兩個多月而已，希望我們的百姓、我們鄉親一整年都可以吃到高品質的黑鮪魚。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們就是因為冷鏈不夠嘛，需要在零下幾十度……"],["陳部長駿季：45度。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是負45度以下的冷鏈不夠，我們的農業部、我們的漁業署在補助各個漁會建置冷鏈速度太慢，是不是品質也不夠？還是他們維護得不好？一千九百多噸，產量300條、400條一進來，價格掉到100塊，院長，這樣你聽得下去嗎？如果這樣幾十萬噸的要怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我是不是跟委員報告，我們現在東港的鹽埔地區已經成立了一個冷鏈，現在正在規劃興建，還沒蓋好之前我們會協調附近冷凍廠的部分。剛剛委員說的應該要負45°C，這個部分我們會優先協助建設。"],["蘇委員清泉：你要讓他們停，6月12號就不能抓，但是6月9號才發公文，三天，船都出去了，有的已經出去了，有的已經抓一半，抓到還要把牠丟掉，丟到海裡面，情何以堪啊？部長，哪有人這樣在搞的？你們有給人家補助嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，當時我們就跟農業部有檢討過，未來對漁民的服務、通告、公告的時效要掌握得精確一點，不要造成大家的困擾。"],["蘇委員清泉：要給他們補助啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們深深地檢討，是。"],["蘇委員清泉：有的一出去都……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，針對這個部分，我們有開始去規劃相關產業的輔導措施，至於這個措施，我相信我們會跟漁民好好討論，未來就這個部分怎麼樣做一個更好的精進作為。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是要對漁民補償一點啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：然後，作秀的啦、遊行的不要做啦，那些錢省下來做基金啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員對漁民的關心，以及對核三廠的關心，我們一起去解決問題。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第3號顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":26,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_id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凱我們對他非常讚賞因為勇敢面對任何的事實然後勇於承擔而且我們恭喜在位恭喜在位很重要的我很不愛聽人家亂說話所以陳部長我再次肯定但是喔這次的黑鮪魚的事情處理的不好張署長你要先開這個嗎要不要啦齁"},{"start":687.113,"end":704.027,"text":"我對於這個黑鮪魚轉成內銷那這十幾年來價格都還不錯但是因為中西太平洋的漁業委員會跟我們借可能喊我們今年1965公噸1965公噸1965公噸所以你如果到那裡就要停了"},{"start":711.38,"end":711.54,"text":"﹚蘇清泉議員﹚"},{"start":740.246,"end":752.096,"text":"我跟委員報告,就是說因為我們有配合的時候,所以過往我們在90%的時候在把這個資訊提供給漁民的時候,那個時間太長了,因為時間太長有人給一些基準已經出海了,"},{"start":769.529,"end":769.549,"text":"委員長"},{"start":786.877,"end":809.426,"text":"一千六九萬六十五噸,很少耶。對啊。還有那個幾條島一萬六千幾噸耶。還有那個大戶鮪魚七萬多噸耶。我跟委員報告齁,那個端午節進行的那個飛鮪魚本身的品質比較好。所以我們會利用這樣的一個調控齁,讓漁民知道他的時間點齁,跟他的抓的數量。"},{"start":810.083,"end":837.768,"text":"我們希望我們一整年,因為漁訓期兩個多月而已嘛。希望我們的百姓、我們鄉親一整年都可以吃到高品質的黑鮪吐露嘛。啊,我們是什麼?兩年不夠嘛。連下幾十度,連下六十、四十六十,四十五度以下的兩年不夠。我們的農業部、我們的漁業署在補助各個漁會來企這兩年,速度太慢。"},{"start":838.669,"end":847.776,"text":"是不是做品質也不夠,還是上面維護得不好。1900多噸,產量300條、400條一進來,價格掉到100塊。 院長你怎麼敢拖下去,如果要顧六萬噸要怎麼辦?"},{"start":854.949,"end":856.21,"text":"我要給他停。6月12日就不能抓。"},{"start":881.055,"end":894.488,"text":"月月19號在發公文,三天,全部都處理,有的已經處理,有的已經抓一半,抓一半的,抓到要把它丟掉,丟到海裡面,情何以堪啊,不領,靠人家這樣在錄的啦。"},{"start":896.497,"end":912.006,"text":"報告委員,當時我們就跟農業部有檢討過未來對漁民的服務、通告、公告的時效要掌握的精確一點,不要造成大家的困擾。我們深深的檢討。我跟委員報告,針對這個部分,我們有開始去規劃相關的產業的一個輔導的一個措施。那這個措施我相信我們會跟漁民來好好的討論,未來就這個部分怎麼樣做更好的一個精進的作為。"},{"start":925.779,"end":926.399,"text":"接下來我們請登記"}]}},{"id":"154388","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154388","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68afbaf69a6bfb708fb6cd03fb23edab3c9e6d73b4b1a63abcb0c7a3ba716382fef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:27:41 - 10:43:11","影片長度":"00:15:30","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-28","start_time":"2024-06-28T10:27:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-28T10:43:11+08:00","duration":930,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":647,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時27分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：院長早。陸委會剛剛宣布調升中國大陸、港澳旅遊警示為橙色燈號，建議國人避免非必要的旅行。請問你有沒有參與這件事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然瞭解。"],["賴委員士葆：你當然瞭解？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然瞭解。"],["賴委員士葆：你也支持這樣做？"],["卓院長榮泰：支持。"],["賴委員士葆：但是不要忘了，賴清德總統在520演說中講了這樣一段話。他講：兩岸交流可以從重啟雙邊對等的觀光旅遊開始。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有忘記。"],["賴委員士葆：這句話他講的，是吧？結果現在上臺不到一個月就把它掐死了！現在你說非必要旅行，這個就是比照以色列，以色列在打仗啊！我不了解到底為什麼現在要做這樣的限制？旅遊業者紛紛說死定了，本來對賴總統有很大的期待，覺得春暖花開，520演說講得這麼漂亮，從觀光旅遊開始兩岸交流，結果現在變惡意的堆疊！老共祭出這個，我們就打出這張，就這樣子，兩岸的惡意螺旋越來越上升了！我的重點在後面，這個你只要簡短回答，這個什麼時候會再檢討？要持續多久？這樣的橙色警戒要維持多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們也看到，6月21日中國當局對於所謂臺獨分子的定義加註了很多不應該有的限制……"],["賴委員士葆：是，我知道，對啦，你就是懲戒它嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們第一個是要保障國人去到大陸地區的人身安全，我們不希望每個人過去那邊都有安全之虞。"],["賴委員士葆：你把臺灣人都認為是臺獨，臺灣人不是臺獨啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是它的定義喔！"],["賴委員士葆：不是這樣子喔！沒有這樣喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是它的定義喔！只要希望臺灣加入國際組織的都是喔！"],["賴委員士葆：你可以看到賴總統又把臺灣派、中華民國派、中華民國臺灣派都匡匡在一起，他前倨後恭，前面很大聲……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您錯了！"],["賴委員士葆：後面縮起來了，把大家抱起來一起取暖……"],["卓院長榮泰：22項當中你要記得，只要我們要加入國際組織都是喔！"],["賴委員士葆：你尊重我，我沒有叫你講話，請你先不要講，好不好？尊重我一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：我要把事實講出來啊！"],["賴委員士葆：我沒有請你講話，請你不要講話！","這個，我要強調的是，旅遊業已經苦哈哈這麼久了，我就問你，真的你們只有政治嗎？只有這樣對抗嗎？大家都了解嘛，這個其實是以假保護臺灣的名義，實際上就是隔絕，一步一步走向臺獨……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這樣！"],["賴委員士葆：未來跟中國大陸完全切掉嘛，就是這樣而已！我就問你這個，然後我這一頁就跳過，請問你這個要維持多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：看中國的態度要維持多久。"],["賴委員士葆：好，未來會不會進一步變紅色？有沒有這個可能？"],["卓院長榮泰：看中國的態度有沒有改變。"],["賴委員士葆：所以不排除變紅色的，是不是這個意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在不能做這種預言式的……"],["賴委員士葆：都有可能，也有可能降為灰色……"],["卓院長榮泰：預言式的質詢很可怕……"],["賴委員士葆：是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：預言式的質詢很可怕，不能做這種預言式的質詢。"],["賴委員士葆：我再跟你強調一遍，我講話你不要插話喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：你剛剛有問我啊！"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我請你講，你再講嘛，要不然你一直插話、插話！"],["卓院長榮泰：你剛剛有問我啊！"],["賴委員士葆：我現在就問你，你沒有回答嘛！我說有沒有可能進一步提升、是不是不排除以後可能變紅色？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：這種預言式的質詢很可怕，要看對方的態度，我們希望就此和緩，改變態度，大家都能夠和平理性的交流。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們看到這陣子有所謂陸媒盯哨政論節目，大家氣噗噗，現在外界高度質疑行政院中央廚房跟自由時報套好的，把消息放給它，結果到現在為止，你們國安單位也沒有查啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這樣子！"],["賴委員士葆：照理講要查啊！如果這樣就要查啊！要進行搜索之類的，不是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是有相當的資訊才會做這種型態……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有這回事啦？你告訴我有沒有這回事？"],["卓院長榮泰：有相當的資訊讓我們足以判斷要增加以後未來安全的防範。"],["賴委員士葆：那你應該立案調查，有沒有？請問你立案調查了沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：有人在進行瞭解。"],["賴委員士葆：開始調查，就這個意思啦！","好，接下來我們來看台電的虧損，累計虧損三千八百多億，而且郭部長──偉大的郭智輝對外說他不要政府的補貼，院長，你聽好喔，部長這樣說了喔，主計長前一陣子還來找我說，我們1,000億要給台電，現在不用了，他不要啊，郭智輝說不用了，不要1,000億，企業經營自負盈虧，所以如果不要這1,000億，累積虧損三千八百多億。還有一條，還有一個東西，院長，我就問你，核四資產怎處理？二千八百多億現在列為資產耶，現在你們不要了，確定不要了，不要了就應該變成廢資產，所以資產要減掉二千八百多億，所以三千八加二千八等於虧損六千多億啊，你要瞭解這一點啊！請問你怎麼處理？請問二千八百多億的核四怎麼處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：郭部長用他企業經營的精神……"],["賴委員士葆：我現在問你嘛，你這個……"],["卓院長榮泰：他是說未來台電好好經營，可以朝向自主性的發展，就不要……"],["賴委員士葆：所以1,000億不要了啊！他1,000億不要了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是現在台電負有很多政策目標……"],["賴委員士葆：他1,000億不要了！"],["卓院長榮泰：做很多政策補貼，政府適足的撥補是應該的，目前的這個階段，但是未來我們希望台電……"],["賴委員士葆：後面是你講的喔，郭智輝從來沒有講過政府撥補是應該的，從來沒有講過這一句，這是卓榮泰說的！"],["卓院長榮泰：郭部長用他企業經營觀念，未來台電能夠自主，這是全民高興的事情啊。"],["賴委員士葆：未來？後面是你幫他講的！今天很可惜，郭部長藉著這個機會不要回來，在美國出差……"],["卓院長榮泰：他參加重要的國際會議。"],["賴委員士葆：是啦，好啦，就是故意的嘛。","來，你能不能承諾今年電價不要漲？可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：今年已經漲價過一次，電價審議……"],["賴委員士葆：不會再漲了？"],["卓院長榮泰：電價審議委員會今年已經漲過一次……"],["賴委員士葆：我怕再漲啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：電價審議委員會最後的處理……"],["賴委員士葆：老百姓苦哈哈啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們會考慮到物價的穩定、民生的需求跟產業的需要。"],["賴委員士葆：院長你知道嗎，我們三分之二的勞工領不到平均薪資四萬塊，四萬多啊……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們會考慮民生。"],["賴委員士葆：三分之二、68%領不到平均薪資，大家的日子很難過，還要漲電價！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我們會考慮民生，今年已經漲過。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你不敢承諾今年不漲電價？不敢承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你比我清楚，這是電價審議委員會要審議的，我只告訴大家，今年已經漲過，我們會考慮民生、考慮物價、考慮產業的需求。"],["賴委員士葆：不然你就回答，稍微縮一下，可不可以？說今年我儘量讓它不要漲電價，這樣可以嗎？同意我這樣的一句話嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們努力維持各項的穩定。"],["賴委員士葆：儘量不要漲電價，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：努力維持物價的穩定跟民生的需求。"],["賴委員士葆：那就儘量不要漲電價，可以吧……"],["卓院長榮泰：會全力的努力維持，希望委員跟我們一起，讓台電體質能夠更好。"],["賴委員士葆：儘量不要漲電價，你都不敢承諾喔，你都不敢接受喔？我已經跟你說得這麼客氣了，承諾儘量不要漲電價……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不能越權……"],["賴委員士葆：但他們要漲也沒辦法，你這樣說就可以了！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果我說了，大家又說院長在主導審議委員會，所以我不能這樣講，但是我們有我們努力的目標，委員應該相信我們啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你說交給審議委員會，這個都是騙人的啦，其實是政策主導的。","來，我們來看，賴清德跟卓榮泰是不同調的或唱雙簧？他現在成立一個氣候委員會，在總統府裡面，其實就是永續經營的概念。童子賢最近放砲了，這是昨天的事情喔，他說蔡英文政府的減碳成績不如馬英九政府，這是他講的，核電應該占三成、綠電占三成、四成是火力，他講這個概念。總統府怎麼講呢？尊重啊、沒有授意啊，就是要他繼續講、繼續講、繼續講。奇怪，他講這個是打你的臉耶！卓院長，你也很瞭解，這個媒體都有說啊，賴清德第一人選的行政院長是童子賢，不是卓榮泰……"],["卓院長榮泰：你們那天不是說林佳龍嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：報紙這樣寫啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員前天說是林佳龍，今天又變童子賢了。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼東西？林佳龍想當行政院長，不是賴清德屬意他，他想當行政院長，對不對？但是賴清德確實找童子賢要接行政院長，童子賢不要才輪到你嘛……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，最重要的是今天就是我站在這裡跟你討論國事，這個才重要！"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！好，那我就跟你講清楚，現在童子賢這樣講囉，某種程度就代表賴清德的意思，他是氣候委員會的副召集人，召集人就是賴清德總統，很清楚啊，某種程度，所以請問你還堅持非核家園嗎？請問？回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，非核家園是2002年環境基本法第二十三條所定的，我們都應該守法吧？這裡第二十三條規定政府應訂定計畫，逐步達成非核家園目標，當時訂定這個條文的時候，委員也應該在立法院裡面。"],["賴委員士葆：時空改變了啊！以現在來講，下個月核三廠1號機就停掉了，核電占比不到4%，所以如果你這樣講的話，那就很簡單了，我的解讀就是卓榮泰顧好、顧牢綠的票，就是要非核家園，然後賴清德就開始騙啊騙的，擁核的來喔，所以把base加大，他現在只有40%，他希望變成45%、變成50%，就是這樣子而已啊！一切就是為了政治，為了……"],["卓院長榮泰：難道我們要推翻這個嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：那個可以修，那個太簡單了！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有修我就要依法吧？"],["賴委員士葆：那個可以修，當然可以修，為什麼不能修？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有修之前大家都要依法，現在你要依法、我也要依法。"],["賴委員士葆：你去修，你們要推的話可以做！請問你，最後如果決定要推動重啟核電的話，你要不要辭職下台？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在要看核管法的規定，我們能不能有權力、有能力去這樣做。"],["賴委員士葆：好，你講到核管法，郭智輝說了喔，郭部長很奇怪耶，他說臺灣人很奇怪，我覺得郭智輝才奇怪，他跑到美國罵臺灣人耶，奇怪，有這樣的經濟部長，跑去美國罵臺灣人，他說臺灣人好奇怪，核電也不要啦、光電也不要啦、風電也不要啦、火力也不要啦，通通都不要，可是又要NVIDIA來這裡投資、AMD來這裡投資，大家搞AI，怎麼一個經濟部長跑去美國罵自己臺灣人呢？有這樣的經濟部長，院長，你不會覺得不好意思有這樣的經濟部長？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會！很清楚的，我們知道郭部長的意思是要大家支持，要國人支持台電的電力開發計畫，我們多元發展綠能、科技儲能……"],["賴委員士葆：到那邊罵臺灣人，你可以講這個不夠或什麼的都可以，但為什麼要罵臺灣人呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：他沒有罵臺灣人。"],["賴委員士葆：他有啊！他說臺灣人好奇怪，他就這樣說啊，我都覺得郭智輝好奇怪，怎麼跑去美國罵臺灣人，好奇怪的郭智輝啊，怎麼可以這樣子呢？來，他講過，如果延役修法通過，核二、核三可以延二十年、三十年，我們現在有法在那裡，現在最大的就是那個核管法相關的規定，要延役要五年前申請，我們現在把五年拿掉，現在還沒有審，審查如果通過的話，請問卓院長，你還要不要提覆議？如果這個法通過了。"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，哪個法通過？核管法？"],["賴委員士葆：核管法第六條通過了，還有我的特別條例，這樣子可以讓核一復活、核二復活，為什麼？我講給你聽，全世界……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，新的法……"],["賴委員士葆：你聽我講完，先不要急。核電廠平均壽命四十年，核一就這樣結束了，但是全世界都是把它plus二十年，有的甚至於更長。世界潮流，世界潮流現在是減碳不減核，多少的國家現在都拼命擁抱核電，只有我們要死抱著非核。我就問你這個東西，很明確的，我時間不多了，如果我們通過把那個五年拿掉，你要不要提覆議？請問你。"],["卓院長榮泰：新的法案通過之後，我們都要看它有沒有窒礙難行，如果沒有窒礙難行，我們當然會照法令來執行。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，假如通過就是核電廠可以延役了，那這樣就跟你的非核家園完全conflict，矛盾了、打架了。"],["卓院長榮泰：延役要三到五年是沒有辦法發電的，委員難道不知道嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：少來，你「凊彩講講咧」，我找了多少的核電專家，我們坐下來討論了幾次，那個要經過安全檢查，大概一年的時間，之後重新set up大概一年多……"],["卓院長榮泰：還要汰換設備。"],["賴委員士葆：大概兩年多一點就可以重啟了……"],["卓院長榮泰：還要汰換設備，還要安全總體檢……"],["賴委員士葆：兩年多就可以了。等一下我們蘇委員下一位就要講了，現在你們都這樣迫不及待，開始用那個核三廠，開始蓋一蓋要做光電板，「夭壽喔」，這樣有夠糟蹋人，你知道嗎？","我們再看最後一個題目，現在全世界大家都在搶人，郭智輝講的，十六年內要引進五十萬人，有沒有可能？這個是國發會的題目，老實講，國發會的，請問我們有沒有可能學川普講話，來美國念書給你綠卡？念大學以上的，包括念大學、碩士、博士，我們有沒有可能？我們的移民政策也太保守，有沒有可能對於高階人才，就給他可以長期居留在臺灣，有沒有可能？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們除了僑外生能夠留在臺灣工作之外，現在我們也想積極來檢討我們的新經濟移民策略……"],["賴委員士葆：到底有沒有可能嘛？我告訴你，有沒有可能的事嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：那委員可不可以一起支持？"],["賴委員士葆：我就支持這個事情啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["賴委員士葆：就是我們現在人不夠，我覺得有必要引進，國外的人來臺灣念書，某種程度是認同臺灣嘛，他畢業之後如果能留下來，就給他長期居留嘛，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，這是好的建議。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第2位蘇清泉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":26,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1136401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.177843750000001,"end":6.207218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.56159375,"end":7.472843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.793468750000001,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":11.337218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.035968750000002,"end":22.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.01471875,"end":23.875343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.44471875,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.74409375,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.414718750000002,"end":29.359718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.08534375,"end":33.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.37596875,"end":35.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.81846875,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.134718750000005,"end":38.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.518468750000004,"end":42.049718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.315343750000004,"end":44.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.80034375,"end":45.289718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.67784375,"end":47.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.85471875,"end":48.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.900968750000004,"end":49.829093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.03596875,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.267843750000004,"end":51.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.88784375,"end":52.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.001593750000005,"end":54.047843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.94221875,"end":55.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.98846875,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.595968750000004,"end":59.549093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.274718750000005,"end":60.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.25346875,"end":63.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.68346875,"end":66.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.58596875,"end":68.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.59409375,"end":69.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.85971875,"end":70.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.99034375000001,"end":71.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.37846875000001,"end":71.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.93534375,"end":72.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.31909375000001,"end":75.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.69846875,"end":76.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.71096875,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.63034375000001,"end":82.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.66346875,"end":86.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.41409375,"end":87.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.56159375,"end":95.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.84721875000001,"end":100.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.11659375,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.47346875000001,"end":113.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.93721875000001,"end":115.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.16471875,"end":119.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.10909375000001,"end":124.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.75409375000001,"end":127.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.26846875000001,"end":132.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.57971875,"end":140.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.67659375,"end":134.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.36846875,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.36409375,"end":138.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.59534375,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.97471875000002,"end":144.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.24471875,"end":151.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.69159375,"end":147.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.52221875,"end":150.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01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派、中華民國、中華民國、臺灣派都框框在一起。他這個前驅後攻。我原名錯了"},{"start":170.109,"end":171.551,"text":"我要強調的是旅遊業已經苦了這麼久了啦"},{"start":189.687,"end":210.878,"text":"好,這東西我就請,我就問你喔,真的你們只有政治嗎?只有這樣對抗嗎?大家都了解嘛,這個其實是假保護台灣人民,其實它就是隔絕,一步一步走向台獨,未來就是跟中國大陸完全切掉嘛,這個是這樣而已啊,好,我就問你這樣子,我這一頁就跳過了,請問你,這個要維持多久?"},{"start":215.846,"end":218.027,"text":"我再跟你講第二遍我講完你不要插網"},{"start":238.752,"end":251.284,"text":"我請你講你在講嗎?你插話你插話你剛剛有問我啊我現在就問你你沒有回答嘛齁我說有沒有可能進一步提升是不是不排除以後可能變紅色有沒有"},{"start":252.16,"end":271.315,"text":"這種預言式的質詢很可怕,要看對方的態度,我們希望就此和緩,改變態度,大家都能夠和平理性的交流。我們看這一陣子有所謂的入媒盯哨爭論節目,大家去噗噗了,現在外界高度質疑,行政院"},{"start":273.604,"end":276.686,"text":"有人在進行了解"},{"start":302.248,"end":319.006,"text":"開始調查就這個意思了齁,我們看臺電的虧損,累計虧損3800多億了齁,而且郭部長啊,偉大的郭志輝啊,對外說他不要政府的補貼,所以院長你聽好喔,不准這樣說啦喔。"},{"start":320.782,"end":345.309,"text":"主席長前一陣子還來找我說我們一千億要給臺電的,現在不用!不用!他不要啊!郭志威說不用啦!不要一千億啊!企業經營自負盈虧!所以這個如果也不要這個一千億累積虧損三千八百多億,還有一條,還有一個東西來!院長我就問你喔!合適資產怎麼處理?兩千八百多億,現在六個資產耶!"},{"start":347.233,"end":347.953,"text":"請問你怎麼處理?請問你怎麼處理?"},{"start":363.359,"end":367.862,"text":"二千八百多位的合適怎麼處理?我問你,你真的有問題嗎?所謂的目前你不要啦!目前你不要啦!目前你不要啦!好,那是你講的喔!"},{"start":383.874,"end":389.359,"text":"國部長用他企業經營觀念,未來台電如果自主,這是全民高興的事情啊!那你能不能承諾,今年電價不要漲,可以嗎?"},{"start":408.638,"end":410.459,"text":"院長你知道嗎?我們三分之二的勞工"},{"start":425.956,"end":431.699,"text":"我只告訴大家今年已經漲過我們會考慮名聲、考慮物價、考慮產業的需求"},{"start":460.877,"end":479.54,"text":"我們努力維持各項的穩定努力維持物價的穩定跟民生的需求會全力的努力維持希望委員跟我們一起讓臺電體質能夠更好盡量不要漲電價你都不敢承認啊你都不敢接受啊我就跟你說這客氣啊"},{"start":480.776,"end":484.319,"text":"賴清德跟卓榮泰是不同調的或者唱雙簧他現在成立一個叫做"},{"start":511.031,"end":535.388,"text":"氣候委員會在總統府裡面,其實就是永續經營的概念。同時前最近放炮了,這真的事情。他說蔡英文政府的檢探成績不如馬英九政府。他講的核電應該占三成,綠電占三成,四成是火力。他講這個概念。"},{"start":536.544,"end":537.464,"text":"你那天不是說是林佳龍嗎?"},{"start":561.113,"end":563.655,"text":"報告委員最重要的是今天就是我站在這裡,跟你討論國事,這個才重要。"},{"start":588.564,"end":603.068,"text":"某種程度就代表賴清德的意思,他是氣候委員會的副召集人,召集人就是賴清德總統,他某種程度,所以請問你還堅持非核家營嗎?請問,會長。"},{"start":606.138,"end":625.243,"text":"報告委員,非核家園是2002年環境基本法23條所定的,我們都應該守法吧。這裡23條說政府應訂定計畫,逐步達成非核家園目標。當進這個條文的時候,委員也應該在立法院裡面。接下來講喔,下個月核三廠的1號機就停掉了,核電佔的不到10%。"},{"start":626.543,"end":636.522,"text":"所以,如果你這樣講的話,阿,就簡單啦,我的解讀就是,來,卓榮泰,過掉,你的票過掉了,我的非核家園,來,現在開始騙啦,騙啦。"},{"start":638.635,"end":660.055,"text":"啊!永和的來喔!所以把他的base加到他現在只有40%他就變成希望變成45%變成50%!就是這樣子而已啊!一切就是為了政治!那我們要推翻這個嗎?那個可以修!那個太簡單了!沒有修我就要依法吧!那個可以修!當然可以修!為什麼不能修呢?沒有修大家都要依法!現在你也要依法我也要依法!"},{"start":660.995,"end":665.278,"text":"那先要看核管法的規定我們能不能有權力有能力去這樣做。"},{"start":679.526,"end":700.292,"text":"賴士葆部長很奇怪,他說台灣人很奇怪,我覺得郭志偉才奇怪,他跑到美國罵台灣人,有這樣的部長,有這樣的經濟部長跑去美國罵台灣人,台灣人好奇怪,火電也不要,光電也不要,風電也不要,火力也不要,"},{"start":701.292,"end":705.455,"text":"國人支持台電的電力開發計畫。我們多元發展綠能。"},{"start":726.307,"end":743.874,"text":"他何必罵臺灣人勒?你可以講,你可以講,文證不夠都可以,但是你為什麼罵臺灣人勒?臺灣人好奇怪,你都這樣講我都覺得郭志輝好奇怪,怎麼跑去美國罵臺灣人,好奇怪的郭志輝啊,怎麼可以這樣子勒?來!"},{"start":745.595,"end":771.663,"text":"他講過,如果原理修法通過,合法合三可以延20年30年,我們現在有法在那裡。現在最大的就是那個合法相關的,要原理要5年前申請,我們現在把5年拿掉。現在還沒有審,審如果通過的話,請問卓院長你還不要提復議?如果這個法通過了。對不起,哪個法通過?合法?合法!"},{"start":773.286,"end":775.107,"text":"世界潮流現在是減碳不減核"},{"start":798.444,"end":827.617,"text":"多少的國家現在都拼命擁抱核電只有我們要死抱著非核我就問你這個東西很明確的我時間不多如果我們通過把那個五年拿掉你要不要提呼應請問新的法令法案通過之後我們都要看他有沒有自在難行如果沒有自在難行我們當然會照法令來治好沒有啊這個通過就是可以核電才可以研議當然這個就跟你的朋友家完全conflict矛盾了大家啦"},{"start":828.464,"end":848.433,"text":"言議要3到5年是沒有辦法發電的委員難道不知道嗎?我找了多少的核電專家我坐下來討論了幾次那個要經過安全檢查大概一年的時間之後重新set up還要汰換設備還要安全總體檢現在等一下我們蘇委員就會下一段會講了現在你們都"},{"start":855.536,"end":863.117,"text":"迫不及待的開始看那個核酸產開始看不看了,要做光頂板了,夭壽喔,這樣有夠早看人你知道嗎?來我們再看。最後一個題目喔,現在全世界,我們大家都在搶人啦,我們國資委公會喔,16年內50萬個人,50萬人,有沒有可能的國話會的題目,老實講,國話會。"},{"start":883.245,"end":886.831,"text":"請問我們有沒有可能學川普獎勞來美國讀書給你綠卡?"},{"start":890.253,"end":890.994,"text":"委員可以跟我們一起支持"},{"start":914.483,"end":914.924,"text":"謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"154387","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154387","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68ac0c8540be2d6a4566cd03fb23edab3c94f8aacd54dfeee20d6e9e66fec18c7355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:11:13 - 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Help。"},{"start":75.856,"end":103.185,"text":"缺乏輸液不只是醫療問題,更是國安危機。如此基本物資幾乎是所有急診、住院、手術都會需要的。如果近期不幸發生重大公安事件或天災意外,我完全不敢想像在醫療現場煉獄般的畫面,哀嚎、怒吼、缺輸液、缺醫護人手、還缺藥品。"},{"start":104.385,"end":127.675,"text":"現在各層級的醫院也正面臨著護理師人力不足的問題但因為衛福部只能提供特定容量的生理鹹水導致在整個手術或是洗腎過程中護理師必須不斷地去打開不同容液的輸液更是在我們現在護理師荒的議題上雪上加霜"},{"start":128.695,"end":144.487,"text":"而書議會大缺最根本的原因就是健保給付對藥品的點值設定過低,最終沒有任何廠家願意生產,淪為一家或少數幾家獨佔的市場,一旦出狀況就會跟現在一樣釀成大災難。"},{"start":148.837,"end":172.954,"text":"我也必須說這場事件就是衛福部造成的人禍因為去年12月11月食藥署就公告出事的廠家輸液出現黑色的懸浮粒需要緊急回收表示衛福部跟食藥署早就知道兩個重大的警訊第一是品管有問題"},{"start":173.855,"end":173.955,"text":"謝謝陳菁威"}]}},{"id":"154386","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154386","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68ac5b1796dd9c4496d6cd03fb23edab3c94f8aacd54dfeee20f242ee52a0981f745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:08:20 - 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