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謝謝各位 大家辛苦了我現在宣布開始開會各位黨團代表還有行政機關代表大家午安今天我們要進行的黨團協商的主題是內政委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等22人以及委員王美惠等19個人分別擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》"},{"start":2780.768,"end":2796.726,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團、委員張智倫等18人、委員蘇巧慧等26人以及委員邱鎮軍等27人分別擬具:「新住民基本法草案 等案"},{"start":2797.727,"end":2819.041,"text":"經院會晉附二讀跟相關提案併案協商的行政院函請審議新住民權益保障法草案的黨團協商現在我先介紹一下在場委員我們有美惠委員巧慧委員羅美玲委員"},{"start":2821.261,"end":2847.538,"text":"還有牛許廷委員、張智倫委員、黃建斌委員還有麥玉珍委員我們現在介紹一下我們今天代表出席的行政官員非常謝謝內政部部長劉世芳部長親自到場謝謝然後移民署署長鍾景坤"},{"start":2849.192,"end":2873.649,"text":"移民署移民事務組組長黃玲玉民政司檢任視察檢預經宗教還有理智師專門委員唐耕生國土管理署檢任政工程師張瓊月警政署國際組副組長甘延明行政院外交國防法務處處長譚中寶"},{"start":2877.096,"end":2902.922,"text":"大陸委員會法證處處長周明瑞港澳盟葬處專門委員蔡碧嘉教育部終身教育司副司長嚴寶月國際司檢任秘書林新培衛福部社保司副司長陳真惠社家屬科長陳昭帆"},{"start":2905.545,"end":2934.219,"text":"設就司檢任視察王燕晴新建司科長陳淑君勞動部勞動發展署副署長鍾景濟主長施淑慧副主長莊國良專門委員王立文農業部院署檢任記制邱怡賢"},{"start":2939.806,"end":2953.535,"text":"經濟部投資促進司司長張明斌、文化部綜合規劃司專務委員李世民、文化部影視及流行音樂發展司專案助理劉正載、交通部交通產業及國際事務司專務委員林金生、"},{"start":2961.618,"end":2990.267,"text":"交通部公共運輸及監理司檢任暨政王基洲法務部參事廖江憲考選部司長方秀雀外交部條法司副參事李淑慧領務局科長陳冠廷國家發展委員會社會發展處專門委員謝偉智司法院司法行政廳法官林怡靜"},{"start":2992.381,"end":3006.289,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會檢任視察黃才政、數位發展部資源管理司副司長曾文芳、人事行政總處總編人栗處專門委員張雅惠、主計總處公務預算處專門委員吳明修、基金預算處專門委員戴群芳"},{"start":3018.429,"end":3027.435,"text":"來,現在呢,我們就進入黨團協商前,我們是不是先敬賦二讀的行政院提案代表,我們請內政部部長先做提案說明,請部長,謝謝"},{"start":3034.244,"end":3058.06,"text":"謝謝昭緯給我們行政院的新的這個版本有一點說明的機會各位委員大家好那我很簡單的報告一下我們行政院院會通過的新住民權益保障法為落實憲法保障多元文化的精神跟宣誓政府維護新住民權益行政院院會在6月21日通過新住民權益保障法的草案那本草案的總共有19條"},{"start":3059.441,"end":3075.368,"text":"將新住民定義擴大以及各國來台居留的專業人士、技術移民及投資移民也將設置專責單位來推動各項工作預計受益的人數會超過100萬人我國的婚姻移民已經超越60萬人"},{"start":3076.428,"end":3103.695,"text":"不僅為我國帶來多元的文化在家庭、社會、經濟各方面也貢獻良多他的子女們也有很多傑出的表現為了落實賴總統照顧新住民的權益的政見完善新住民相關政策以專法、專責單位進一步提升新住民的權益保障本次制定的專法目的在於第一個確保新住民涉及成為國人之前能有完善的權益保障"},{"start":3104.295,"end":3123.235,"text":"至於成為國人之後,也希望他們能夠融入在地的生活,認同台灣,成為台灣人,所以草案的名稱為《權益保障法》。此外,本次法案的亮點在於擴大新住民的定義,宣示政府歡迎世界各地的專業人士、技術移民、投資移民到台灣共同來打拼。"},{"start":3124.016,"end":3143.147,"text":"期望這些習民家庭在台灣長居久住,最終成為我國的公民。在亞洲國家當中,韓國人對於外國人事務設有外國人政策委員會,日本人設有定住外國人施策推進會議,跟我國現行體制上的做法跟功能雷同。"},{"start":3143.707,"end":3149.589,"text":"但是行政院通過的權益保障法會將現行行政院新住民事務協調委員會法制化,未來將進一步朝向提升層級,尤其會在內政部設置專責單位,跟各級地方政府統籌規劃推動新住民事務。"},{"start":3163.093,"end":3179.694,"text":"人員編制與預算現在與相關機關共同研商。本法案共有19條,裡面的五大重點,第一個,擴大新住民定義,涵蓋更多的專業人士、技術移民、投資移民,其取得我國國籍三年內均屬之。"},{"start":3180.434,"end":3187.781,"text":"並且促進多元文化的融合跟發展。第二個,設立專責單位。移民事務涉及的有教育、勞動、醫療、文化等等層面。未來將研議設專責單位統籌規劃新住民的相關事務。第三,設置新住民的事務協調匯報。將現行的這個協調匯報法制化,未來也會以研議提升成績跟功能。"},{"start":3203.334,"end":3232.814,"text":"第四、設置新住民發展基金除了各級政府要編列預算之外推動辦理新住民家庭各項照顧服務的事項如果有需求亦可以向基金來申請補助第五、維護新住民的權益措施政府多年以來在推動這個新住民的權益方面包括生活的適應、生育的保健、就業的保障、人身安全等一共有八大照顧服務措施在確保新住民各項權益只會越多跟越好"},{"start":3233.274,"end":3258.385,"text":"那以上就我們行政院在6月21日通過了新住民權益保障法提供給各位委員參考那同時在前幾次我們內政委員已經討論過保留的條文總共有9個條次希望就保留的條文可以再跟各位委員一起來討論那如果我們新住民的權益保障法可以在這個會期完成三讀的話我想對很多新住民權益的保障是莫大的榮幸謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":3261.411,"end":3265.694,"text":"有關本日協商會議,在6月12日主持內政委員會第23次全體委員會議完成法案初審時,我們有要求內政部及相關主管機關"},{"start":3279.705,"end":3307.691,"text":"在提出行政院版本草案的時候就審查會通過的條文還有它的保留的條文需要全面的檢視來參考然後再函送本院審查避免浪費無謂的勞力、時間還有費用現在行政院的提案版本已經經過院會晉附二讀並且與內政委員會完成了審查的版本並按交付黨團協商"},{"start":3309.291,"end":3323.676,"text":"為了節省各位黨團代表寶貴的時間我們並且要集中討論焦點來提升法案的協商效率所以我建議是不是第一本次的協商為了維持本法草案立體體系的完整性"},{"start":3324.336,"end":3350.672,"text":"我建議用行政院提案的條文的順序為本次協商討論的基礎然後呢我們再來配合對照審查會審查通過或者是保留的條文依序來討論最後呢我們全案採用協商條文的立法體力然後再來提報院會進行二三讀的程序或者是再請我們的院長再召開一次朝野協商好嗎請問一下在場一間對羅美英委員"},{"start":3356.772,"end":3385.297,"text":"謝謝主席主席辛苦了在要進入協商之前我想我還是要講個話我想有關心這個新住民議題的我們立院同仁應該有注意到昨天有十幾個民團包含了新住民新二代專家學者及人權團體在立法院召開了一個記者會要求暫緩今天的這個協商因為民團認為各個版本包含行政院版其實他們有很多的"},{"start":3385.777,"end":3391.6,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案。"},{"start":3404.485,"end":3406.947,"text":"二、行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》案"},{"start":3434.985,"end":3457.654,"text":"事後不是基層新住民跟新二代他們的期望好 以上謝謝好的再再請好 請喬惠委員再請這個麥玉珍委員 謝謝好 謝謝 因為我剛好講了一定跟你等一下有關係就是要請你發表意見啦我的意見就是要請你發表意見啦"},{"start":3459.8,"end":3468.306,"text":"我覺得確實我們也都昨天看到這個美玲委員在提的就是有很多的新二代的團體新住民的團體確實這個有提出了他們的意見認為他們忽然間感受到這個法快馬加鞭的要通過了他覺得他們的意見還沒有足夠的被呈現、被保留、被討論、被重視、被聆聽"},{"start":3484.757,"end":3512.778,"text":"所以在這樣的狀況下提出的是希望說不要那麼快完成那如果說釋緩責緣是一種常態的話那我覺得今天這個問題等於是在我們協商一開始的程序問題那是不是請主席也可以讓大家因為我想這個這個不管昨天的這個新住民的團體啊他講的其實不只是政府部門啊他也講了包括我們現在在討論的立法院的成員當中的不同黨團"},{"start":3513.959,"end":3527.406,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團、委員張智倫等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團、委員張智倫等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團、委員張智倫等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團、委員張智倫等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草"},{"start":3532.342,"end":3532.402,"text":"賴慧珍議員"},{"start":3554.568,"end":3558.109,"text":"林立場他也提新住民基本法他也辦過公聽會也辦過全國新住民新二代的座談會所以我們都有辦我們樓委員也在信賴新住民信賴台灣也是辦了多少個新住民新二代的座談會才會有這個版本出來吧如果沒有是針對大家的需求不會有去版本嘛"},{"start":3581.817,"end":3582.398,"text":"二、行政院函請審議新住民權益保障法草案案例"},{"start":3594.261,"end":3599.626,"text":"他們都有來參加我們的公聽會我不是沒有邀請但是他們就說他們有的有時間沒有來有的是有來他們都有代表來但是說不是完全過來啦沒有完全每一個都是完全過來的話我們可能未來我們成立後移民署要辦100次座談會怎麼樣去執行都沒有問題"},{"start":3619.045,"end":3623.727,"text":"所以不是說沒有談是說每一個人的意見不同每一個人有的想法所以給我們建議他們開記者會後他們又給我們很多說建議他們不是說要不希望通過是他們希望說有一些建議我說你不開記者會我們也找你討論了我們也建立一個族群來討論他們也給我們很多的建議我們也要去改"},{"start":3645.334,"end":3645.975,"text":"議員王美玲等22人分別擬具"},{"start":3660.353,"end":3666.096,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等26人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等26人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等26人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等26人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等26人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草"},{"start":3685.677,"end":3685.897,"text":"主席"},{"start":3707.608,"end":3712.711,"text":"主席,在這裡,因為我認為我們在內政選要修改一個法,都希望可以更好,所以在公聽會裡面這個規定,也有人有來,也有人沒來,也不是說沒來就不對,來就對跟不對,只是說長有這個單位,開這個記者會,他的歡樂跟擔憂,我們是不是可以"},{"start":3736.738,"end":3737.098,"text":"二、行政院函請審議"},{"start":3762.677,"end":3770.163,"text":"我是台灣人,你是新住民,但是為了新住民的權利,我們都一定要愛國。愛國的擔憂在他們開的記者會裡面,他們所有的擔憂,你說它沒利也不會,說它太煩惱,"},{"start":3785.828,"end":3786.208,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具"},{"start":3801.476,"end":3803.877,"text":"委員王美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事由：一、本院內政委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事由：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":3820.954,"end":3836.034,"text":"對不起我們請劉錫廷委員我們是不是節省時間就是發言過的委員我們就盡量不要在第一輪再發言了好嗎謝謝謝謝主席這我剛剛看了一下相關的一些新聞露出啦就他們在記者會的過程中其實表達了一些修法的一些訴求"},{"start":3836.855,"end":3864.525,"text":"那我想透過協商的一些機制把這些修法訴求來納入也未嘗不是一種解決的辦法嘛因為大體上我剛剛收拾了大概三個比較大的方向第一個就是蠻多人要求要有專責機關我們也要求專責機關啊我非常支持啊那當然就最好今天就有結論有專責機關這大問題就解決了嘛第二個他們很多講說很多東西都是宣示性質但當初這個修法邏輯跟我們當初的內政委員會審查大部分通過的條文基本上都是以基本法的邏輯去通過的"},{"start":3865.245,"end":3888.286,"text":"那當然嘛,你講說基本法之外,你就要其他的一些執法或什麼,本來就要有啊。那你是不是基本法先走?那這些相關的細節跟實際的配套,大家透過執法的方式去完善。就分布、分布、不只走嘛。總要有先有宣示意義的東西先出來,那實質上可以進步,我們再一步一步往前。也許行政命令,也許相關的執法,那時候再來詳細的納入,我覺得也可以完善。第三個他們講藍領移工要納入,我非常支持啊。"},{"start":3888.846,"end":3906.842,"text":"有什麼不行的呢既然白領移工有納入藍領移工不納入好像有點差別對待有點歧視的味道非常同意那就一起納入一起照顧也沒什麼不好因為這個就是大家都政策邏輯的問題嘛如果我們講說以適用對象來講本來一套邏輯叫做定居為主也就是說我本來就是來住的包含婚姻等等"},{"start":3907.363,"end":3920.703,"text":"指女等我一定是住在台灣的另外一套是我只是暫時來來就業、來就學的包含了移工、包含了留學生等你這兩套邏輯你可以做納入或不納入的政策取捨那如果大家希望說因為我們剛剛在討論的時候也覺得這有盲點"},{"start":3922.386,"end":3948.747,"text":"就是說你只對高階白領移工好對藍領移工不好好像是不太公平那就給他納入吧既然都來而且不管藍領白領其實也都長時間待在台灣那就乾脆把他納入做一定的保障讓他有更完善的生活也未嘗不可啊進步的主張我們在野黨非常支持啊那我們透過協商的部分我們就把他現在就納入嘛那是不是這個既不耽誤立法的這個進程跟時間也兼顧了大家比較進步的需求本期非常同意以上"},{"start":3949.934,"end":3976.43,"text":"非常謝謝劉錫庭委員的補充說明我們再介紹一下張宏祿委員今天也到了現場謝謝那第一輪珍貴這個部分等一下我先講完大家都提出了非常寶貴的意見聽聽看召委的想法因為就剛剛麥玉珍委員所講歷屆的新住民的委員其實都在立法院有提出很多的版本也開過很多的公聽會"},{"start":3977.911,"end":3985.315,"text":"：一、本院內政委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．事由．一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．事由．二、行政院函請審議"},{"start":3993.438,"end":4009.743,"text":"對 對 因為沒有願版嘛那這就是我接著要來講的那個這個會期呢我在4月29號、6月12號分別都排了兩次審查尤其是在6月12號的時候我們總共有17個條文大家非常認真、非常努力"},{"start":4010.563,"end":4011.684,"text":"《新住民權益保障法草案》"},{"start":4034.443,"end":4060.812,"text":"走了很長一段路程了好不容易今天大家的努力各委員的努力還有行政院願意提出版本已經走到了現在縱使有很多不同的聲音我覺得都可以被討論如果要讓我來做身為召委的人來今天暫停審查我覺得我沒有立場我也對不起那麼努力的提案的委員還有在4月29號、6月12號"},{"start":4063.353,"end":4065.014,"text":"委員王美玲等19人分別擬具〈新住民權益保障法草案〉"},{"start":4084.401,"end":4105.038,"text":"好不容易走到今天這一步非常多廣大的新住民朋友其實都在等待跟期待這個法如何能夠當然一部法沒有完全能夠真正落實到每一個人的如意但是怎麼樣來取得共識然後加快進程來服務到"},{"start":4106.579,"end":4128.974,"text":"在台灣的這些我們新住民的朋友們我覺得這才是重點好不好現在我再詢讀一下有關本法協商條文的立法說明請內政部會診之後送本席跟各黨團協商代表來檢視無意見之後列入協商結論的附件並且刊登公報好嗎"},{"start":4129.935,"end":4130.556,"text":"法案名稱問題"},{"start":4151.871,"end":4170.911,"text":"法案名稱的行政院提案版本是《新住民權益保障法》委員會當時審查的結果保留了黨團提案有台灣民眾黨、國民黨黨團提案法案名稱叫做《新住民基本法》委員羅美玲"},{"start":4172.432,"end":4195.126,"text":"王美惠等提案的法案名稱叫做《新住民權益保障法》委員張智倫、蘇巧慧以及委員邱鎮軍等的提案名稱叫做《新住民基本法》所以我們今天就先按照各位委員的"},{"start":4196.827,"end":4197.327,"text":"提案及討論"},{"start":4220.984,"end":4221.745,"text":"張宏祿委員"},{"start":4234.589,"end":4250.902,"text":"各位委員其實我們要保障新住民的權益大家都是目標一致不過什麼都用基本法我覺得有點怪怪的而且新住民的身份他不是永遠都是新住民"},{"start":4252.031,"end":4279.043,"text":"他如果是我們要保障他他有一天他就是成為中華民國國民了那我覺得全世界的法例移民法什麼的都沒有一個用基本法去做這個的所以我必須就是說我個人認為啦我們不要糾結在名稱啦但是要符合齁這個新住民他的身份是短暫的他有一天一定會拿到中華民國的身份證除非他不要"},{"start":4280.063,"end":4295.572,"text":"那這樣子的話我們應該是用權益保障我覺得比較適當不然這個用基本法我覺得有點怪怪的啦你應該全世界也沒有人這樣子立法的這個我必須要表明一下我的立場"},{"start":4296.441,"end":4312.853,"text":"前美會委員、蔓玉珍委員、羅美玲委員在我的提案裡面,我也是用權益保障法來修法的因為我都覺得不管你是有帶來的新住民就是像剛才馮如說的,是短暫的,以這個時間"},{"start":4317.697,"end":4335.573,"text":"我們要如何管理、如何保障但它站在中華民國台灣的新聞局的時候它就視同跟我們一般的法制都一樣所以我是覺得我們今天要想這個法治它既來台灣"},{"start":4339.236,"end":4339.276,"text":"主席"},{"start":4361.714,"end":4362.616,"text":"新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":4377.876,"end":4381.238,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":4407.936,"end":4412.657,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":4434.002,"end":4435.304,"text":"：立法院朝野黨團、委員王美玲等19人分別擬具"},{"start":4451.595,"end":4475.866,"text":"羅美玲委員從法律層面來看的話其實基本法就像剛剛很多委員提到了就是它需要配合很多的這個關聯法來做這個修法就好像說我們這個原住民基本法好了你要修原住民身份法你要修原住民委員會的組織法等等你必須要有其他的執法來完善法律的體系可是那是不是說以後我們還要修新住民身份法"},{"start":4476.406,"end":4500.952,"text":"我們還要修一個新住民的一個組織法等等你才能夠來進行這個才能夠進行這個法的這個執行那如果說用權益保障法它是作用法那作用法的話呢它就是說我現在在這個法裡面訂出來的這個所有的這個法條可以立即去做執行這是為什麼我們用這個新住民權益保障法作用法的這個最主要的原因我想行政單位應該也是這樣子考量以上謝謝"},{"start":4503.643,"end":4506.837,"text":"好,如果沒有其他委員再,呃,劉學廷委員,謝謝"},{"start":4511.67,"end":4536.426,"text":"我想昨天很多這個民團的記者會的內容都有講就是它如果是叫做權益保障法那它必然會接下來遇到的問題就是條文的內容不夠具體的問題那條文的內容之所以不夠具體不就是因為當初大部分的提案委員其實是用基本法的邏輯來立這部法嗎那我們內政委員會經過了討論那當然也是走這樣那我就覺得院版其實我剛剛看了一下大部分的條文也跟我們審查通過的條文所差無幾其實那也是基本法的邏輯"},{"start":4537.327,"end":4561.396,"text":"那既然是走基本法,那基本法先行,那我覺得後面修法我們都支持啊,沒有什麼好不支持的,因為本來就應該是用這樣的方式處理嘛,要不然你等於是全盤通過,全盤推翻重來,然後你要針對很多的細節,很多的細節衍生出更多的問題,那整個在這個賴清哲總統推動新住民友善政策方面,難道不會又是一個空轉的四年嗎,這是我們擔心的事情嘛,所以是不是至少宣誓性基本的方向先定,"},{"start":4562.156,"end":4579.011,"text":"然後把成績拉出來後面馬上我們再逐條逐條來做討論讓每一年每一年或甚至每半年每半年新住民的保障都一步一步落實我覺得這是一條比較務實可行的路所以我想就乾脆就按照我們那部分通過條文的內容以基本法為架構來進行處理 以上"},{"start":4581.437,"end":4581.457,"text":"喬蕙委員"},{"start":4602.216,"end":4607.819,"text":"行政院所提的這個權益保障法剛剛各位委員大概在解釋的時候有特別提到就是我們認為權益保障的作用比較大"},{"start":4625.209,"end":4649.95,"text":"也就是說大家都了解基本法的這個性質如果說你要要求各個權責機關在政策上要遵守這是屬於綱領性的規定的話可能基本法之後你還要再制定其他的相關的法律法律案不是執法是法律案那它具體的個案在當事人的特定權益上面的話還是用其他的作用法來規定所以定位上面不一定是比較好"},{"start":4650.891,"end":4653.753,"text":"在行政院所提出的版本第十條、十一、十二、甚至十三條裡面我們在第十條裡面提到的提案已經把八個主要措施包括生活適應的輔導"},{"start":4673.57,"end":4691.647,"text":"醫療、生育的保健、就業權益的保障還有教育文化、子女教養、人身安全、健全法令制度跟落實觀念宣導這些相關措施包括新住民跟其子女在台的權益還有包括服務措施都把它明定在裡面也就是說我們參考了前兩次在內政委員會"},{"start":4696.391,"end":4708.118,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案〈新住民權益保障法"},{"start":4723.027,"end":4734.982,"text":"地方政府也要根據我們的權益保障法設定剛剛我所講的這個八大的照顧的服務功能包括語言的服務或者是說家庭、婚姻就是我剛剛所說的第十條、十一條、十二條跟其他的條次"},{"start":4738.146,"end":4757.259,"text":"所以我們已經把原來在我們的委員會協商的過程當中我們認為怎麼樣補強在權益保障方面的把它放到我們的條文裡面所以如果會審查到這幾個條文的時候也是希望可以按照我們行政院的提案條文更能夠把整個的體系更完善來制定以上"},{"start":4760.17,"end":4775.419,"text":"謝謝部長的說明那現在稍微有一點想法大家思考看看就是說我認為基本法它最主要的是有關重要事務的原則性還有它的精神性、政策方向的規範"},{"start":4777.1,"end":4803.891,"text":"同時基本法多用於確定施政的方向所以在依據基本法的精神然後繼續來制定各種不同的執法那個基本法它是比較具有統合各機關目標還有手段的作用如果一開始這個法裡面我們可以指定政策的方向其實我認為也可以避免掉很多資源的行政浪費就如同"},{"start":4804.651,"end":4822.663,"text":"《客家基本法》也如同原住民族基本法其實它在這個基本法裡面就非常的明定就是續明這個國家也就是我們國家對它新住民的政治的方向它的重要性是什麼"},{"start":4823.624,"end":4850.197,"text":"如果大家認為它很重要它必須要有一個基本的方針跟大方向的走向那麼我認為就應該叫做新住民基本法然後有了這個基本法的大架構之後我們才能夠在各部會裡面續訂來修訂各種不同的法跟條例所以我認為就是說在台灣現在已經有這麼多的新住民的人口"},{"start":4850.657,"end":4856.242,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":4871.297,"end":4898.762,"text":"那我認為就應該要有一個非常基本的大方向所以因此剛剛部長所說的我也同意這個大方向明定了之後才會有下面的這一些剛剛包括昨天記者會的這些這個新住民的朋友提出現在的法好像不夠完善然後實在是有點宣示那當然基本法本來它的意思本來就是宣示意義然後接著下來才會有更多"},{"start":4899.982,"end":4900.662,"text":"行政院函請審議"},{"start":4925.39,"end":4931.48,"text":"因為到底是什麼問題,你們兩個的差別,你剛才說的,我覺得不至於太誠實,還是說得很清楚的很好。"},{"start":4938.427,"end":4957.403,"text":"好,是不是再請部長補充說明,門會委員覺得好像您的...對啊,您如果覺得說有自愛難行,給您的基本法來...如果名稱叫做基本法,對你們裡面所有的法條會有自愛難行的部分嗎?您要考慮是在什麼原因啊?今天要討論,跟前一天討論也一樣啊,因為我都覺得..."},{"start":4965.595,"end":4980.603,"text":"大家可以收到,雖然我是寫全域保障法,但是可以收到合法保障的錢。我們說基本法,也跟我們部長"},{"start":4982.096,"end":5002.419,"text":"公關因有什麼困難都得待,大家可以出來探討、講。好,部長說明之前我再來補充一下例如我剛剛已經舉到了這個客家基本法還有原住民基本法那甚至於就是交通基本法好像在上個會期我們也花很多的時間嘛"},{"start":5003.479,"end":5020.487,"text":"現在在交通的問題上面其實以現行的道路交通管理處罰條例它繼續施行就可以了也可以做也可以執行可是我們在討論的時候就是希望有一個明確規定的政策的走向所以有交通基本法"},{"start":5021.007,"end":5021.328,"text":"通訊傳播基本法"},{"start":5036.528,"end":5036.828,"text":"告知委員長"},{"start":5058.798,"end":5079.967,"text":"權益的不一樣嗎?謝謝召委我想我先講一小段我們那個陸委會的法政處有他的看法提供給各位參考第一個就是剛剛那個羅美玲有提到就是人我們是講人客家的族群或是原住民的族群他們是生來血緣上面就是中華民國的國民一輩子"},{"start":5080.247,"end":5080.547,"text":"議員羅美玲等"},{"start":5095.811,"end":5122.89,"text":"他是文化上面的語言上面的他一輩子會文化上認同他是新住民可是在我們新住民的權益保障法是說他到台灣來取得正式的居留權益跟他變成有中華民國國籍的大概三年之間在台灣的生活適應上需要政府機關包括中央跟地方政府來照顧他我們需要的權益保障在哪裡所以其實是定義上面的不同"},{"start":5123.81,"end":5137.945,"text":"我們不再爭執說這是叫基本法或權益保障法所以我們是用這樣子的方式提出剛剛所說的所以在我們也非常謝謝召委能夠同意說以行政院的版本來做其他這個審查的這個版本上面的這個比較"},{"start":5140.507,"end":5156.649,"text":"所以我們還是說在定義上面如果能夠維持原來我們行政院所提的新住民權益保障法的話恐怕在未來的法體系或是要求其他部會在配合的時候會比較好處理相關的這個具體個案或是具體的措施上面的執行"},{"start":5157.329,"end":5174.343,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5175.885,"end":5193.066,"text":"〈困難產業振興辦法〉這特例我們就不管它但再來是〈客家知識體系發展獎勵補助辦法〉〈客語為通行與實施辦法〉〈客語能力認證辦法〉〈高級中等學校以下學校及幼兒園客語實施培訓資格及聘用辦法〉〈客語語言教學獎勵辦法〉其實都行政命令"},{"start":5193.767,"end":5219.677,"text":"換言之你講說基本法下面的執法很多其實是可以透過行政命令的方式來處理也不是說每一件事情都要送到立法院來處理唯一一條有條例的是財團法人客家公共傳播基金會設置條例比較大的事情大家就來專門立法比如說這一定是跟媒體金融權有關嘛那我們就專門立法可以那沒有簡單的事情像其實我們上次討論很多條文比如說這個家庭照顧不賴服務啊語言推廣啊什麼東西"},{"start":5220.157,"end":5232.214,"text":"其實就讓未來的專責機關直接來訂立辦法這樣子就是既法案又往前走也有實際處理方式還比較有效率的方式所以我認為越看我越覺得是應該是用基本法的方式來處理以上謝謝再請法務委員"},{"start":5236.355,"end":5255.033,"text":"謝謝齁,其實剛剛召委你所說的我也認同不過我在這邊我還是要跟所有委員說一下齁我們如果是定基本法全世界一百多個國家所有的來台灣這樣子的新住民都適用我們如果只是把它單純的"},{"start":5257.095,"end":5275.935,"text":"放在比如說中國、東南亞我覺得基本法這樣子是好像OK但是你如果基本法全世界100多個國家所有的包括很多的人種那我們如何去做到這些我覺得這一點大家要思考一下我們這個法令訂了"},{"start":5278.657,"end":5289.245,"text":"這個等於全世界任何一個人都可以適用我們必須要思考這一點我只跟大家說一下這個是我的考量好 謝謝洪祿委員我們現在請這個大陸委員會法政處處長是嗎周處長來請您來說明一下麥克風 謝謝"},{"start":5302.504,"end":5323.83,"text":"趙偉 各位委員 大家好就是剛剛趙偉跟各位委員所提到的基本法或權益保障法大的方向都是沒有問題的那當然基本法它最主要除了趙偉剛剛所提到的是政策性、原則性、綱領性的宣示以外在中華民國所訂定的法律裡面因為大家都了解法律跟法律之間"},{"start":5324.87,"end":5354.127,"text":"有的時候會出現不一致的情形所以有時候會有所謂特別法跟普通法特別法要優先適用但是在我們國家的法律體系裡面只要是基本法永遠是最優先的所以假設今天我們通過的叫做新住民基本法代表有一天如果國內其他的法律跟這個法律衝突的話其他的法律都要退位它是最優先適用這是在我們的立法實務跟司法將來法院要適用這個法律的時候"},{"start":5354.727,"end":5365.897,"text":"只要基本法定了這個內容那譬如說所有的作用法都必須要略遜於它我舉個例子我們現在勞動基準法所定的勞動的條件"},{"start":5368.061,"end":5396.935,"text":"任何法律定了都不能再違背它它就是一個最基本的條件了只能比它更好不能比它更壞那我們是覺得起碼在尤其在大陸這一塊各位委員也了解就是兩岸的情況有比較特殊敏感一點在兩岸條例它會有一些比較特殊性的規定那所以陸委會是也希望各位委員能夠支持我們盡量朝這個權益保障法的方向保留一個這樣的一個空間報告完畢"},{"start":5398.184,"end":5413.787,"text":"邱處長對不起齁我必須要以我在立法院22年原住民基本法也是我催生的一直用到現在您剛剛說它是最上位的法我告訴你在立法院各部會並沒有把它當作最上位的法"},{"start":5415,"end":5440.661,"text":"有一些競合問題的時候我們還是有其他的主管機關或者是這個部會有他們的看法最後還會在立法院裡面來綜合大家的意見所以並沒有你講的這麼嚴重所以原住民基本法通過了之後呢它是最上位法它會優先於其他法其實呢並沒有你想像的這麼恐怖"},{"start":5441.161,"end":5441.322,"text":"劉許廷委員"},{"start":5458.9,"end":5474.451,"text":"那剛剛講說所有的法律都不能抵觸它這其實就呼應了我們之前討論的一些內容就今天我們大部分的內容其實包含行政院院版的內容都是方向性的東西那我們如果連方向性的東西都不能被確保它的價值跟意義的話"},{"start":5475.231,"end":5502.439,"text":"那就白搞啦!那我們乾脆不要保障新住民好了我是覺得也不要做成這樣就是說你的法條就既然是講基本法但是一個方向性的法條的細節就我們就不用花太多時間討論細節方向定出來未來的東西就授權專責機關去去定立辦法去處理這樣子就可以避免掉這個競合的問題嘛那剛剛我也贊成趙薇的說法真的有問題或什麼樣大家就再來針對法條內容再去做討論跟競合這個也不會沒有辦法可以處理啦所以我是覺得就這樣子吧好不好"},{"start":5505.363,"end":5525.963,"text":"我們也歡迎吳斯耀委員到現場來了然後他來的同時呢也提出了一個修正動議他的不是第一個新住民權益保障法一樣他沒有修正動議他就是第一條修正動議我們現在還沒到第一條我們還只是在法案名稱就花了非常多時間請喬惠委員謝謝"},{"start":5528.683,"end":5548.623,"text":"主席不好意思我想針對我不是要針對您啦但是就是說前一段關於所謂基本法在法律體系上面的定位我想至少要有一個聲音要能夠在今天的會議記錄上面我想中華民國是一個憲法法治治國的國家"},{"start":5551.826,"end":5573.091,"text":"那其實什麼樣的法律放在什麼樣的位階這是民主憲政國家所應該要公認該有的基本的制度和知識就比如說我覺得憲法憲法確實就是國家的根本大法理論上憲法的最高位階就是放在那裡"},{"start":5574.051,"end":5592.895,"text":"你不能因為說現在有人不尊重憲法然後不把憲法看在眼裡然後做出一些違背憲法的法律案然後就倒過來開始反過來說其實憲法的功能也沒那麼大嘛我們遇到跟憲法不太一樣的想法的時候我們就再來討論瞧一瞧就好了如果是這樣的話那我們乾脆不要說我們是憲法法治國家好了我覺得道理不應該是這樣啊"},{"start":5600.456,"end":5626.525,"text":"就是基本法有基本法它應該要在的位置那至於現在現存的現有的基本法有沒有真正被尊重被落實那是另外一件事情如果應該要被校正回來應該要尊重它那我覺得這是實務執行面上應該值得被監督被校正的部分而不是在這裡否定基本法它的位置"},{"start":5627.105,"end":5652.33,"text":"那如果這種觀念確認之後作為一個新一屆的國會成員那我們在制定法律的時候到底哪一個法要用在什麼樣的位階自然而然就可以從我們開始非常清楚的一階一階一件一件來處理我覺得這才是正軌這是第一個我希望能夠被留下記錄關於基本法的法律位階這是第一件事情"},{"start":5653.05,"end":5676.312,"text":"第二件事的話我會認為如果是剛剛陸委會法治局這邊有提到的是因為定立了基本法新住民的基本法以至於在實務上面因為他的位階甚高所以讓我們未來國內其他作用法會有自愛難行之處我覺得這就是可以討論的理由之一"},{"start":5677.353,"end":5703.752,"text":"我也希望行政院也就是內政部這邊如果在你們有認為說應該是要提出應該是要使用新住民權益保障法到底它的優點在哪裡缺點也就是剛剛所謂的至愛難行之處能夠多講幾個說服在場的委員那我們當然就應該要採用權益保障法如果是現在這種態度覺得基本法也可以權益保障法也可以後面都通用的話"},{"start":5705.714,"end":5722.357,"text":"對於我們來講的話我們真的是從這部法案一開始朝野這麼認真排案我們大家在討論我們也已經以權益保障法的位置在討論這麼久了的狀況那其實如果部內不堅持的話我覺得我們也不用堅持啊"},{"start":5723.916,"end":5738.916,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5739.016,"end":5753.626,"text":"全體保障法的話你今天通過我們今天出了委員會然後三讀之後其實總統公佈其實我們就已經可以開始照著現在有的這些開始下去做了再搭配現有的政策其實對新住民的保障是又快又好這是我一直以來的論點"},{"start":5755.367,"end":5775.867,"text":"巧慧委員你是新住民基本法你的草案?所以我上次就說啦我就改變了我被說服了我被說服因為確實基本法之後還要訂好多個好所以現在了解您的這個基本態度然後第二個謝謝巧慧委員剛剛所提的部分真的這幾年來我們面對基本法的時候我們很無奈啊"},{"start":5776.708,"end":5776.748,"text":"主席"},{"start":5806.768,"end":5806.968,"text":"主管機關內政部"},{"start":5823.695,"end":5849.674,"text":"那如果未來通過基本法的話呢可能主管機關就不會是內政部因為內政部無法凌駕其他外交國防陸委會這樣的職責因為它是個基本法所以未來如果有跟勞動有關的或是跟教育有關的或是跟其他文化有關的話其他的作用法就要另外再宣示一個新的法那我會覺得說我們剛剛有幾位委員有提到的部分就是說第一個新住民的這個相關的這個法律啊"},{"start":5850.154,"end":5860.605,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新"},{"start":5873.457,"end":5898.005,"text":"如果未來是基本法的話恐怕內政部就無法主管其他部會我們只能說敬請貴部參考用這樣的方式所以我會建議就是說是不是用權益保障法的方式在這個整個的法體系上面我們比較能夠接受而且在未來包括有定因為我們已經把相關的定義尤其是在新住民的定義裡面把兩岸人民關係條例還有移民法還有這個外國專業人才的懶人的辦法"},{"start":5902.346,"end":5920.693,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案"},{"start":5932.723,"end":5946.116,"text":"非常謝謝部長,剛剛部長說這個內政部沒有辦法跟其他的外交部這些,這個我不對,沒有辦法凌駕,但是你們可以"},{"start":5948.653,"end":5968.878,"text":"案件的主管機關是原民會,所以碰到有關各部會的問題的時候,大家就必須要坐下來談論,然後以原住民族基本法或者是現在談的新住民基本法的大方向、大主軸、大規劃裡面去談論,所以並沒有誰凌駕誰的問題。所以我想說,"},{"start":5972.919,"end":5973.26,"text":"主席"},{"start":5988.378,"end":5989.018,"text":"吳氏耀委員"},{"start":6016.448,"end":6018.611,"text":"新住民基本法草案案"},{"start":6033.328,"end":6062.056,"text":"那基本法它推動當然它是回應憲法的基本國策那感覺上它就是比較高位但是以台灣推動到目前的十部基本法裡來我們可以去觀察到它一些發展的脈絡很多東西是先從平常的一些法規去下手譬如說我們今天對於新住民的權益保障是過去很多欠缺一個相對完備的法規去保障方方面面那事實上讓一個權益保障法先上路那透過更多年"},{"start":6062.756,"end":6092.756,"text":"議員"},{"start":6093.016,"end":6107.906,"text":"那是文化界的憲法、文化的大法也是事前有很多的文化相關的法規不管是文創法、文化藝術講述條例、很多法律的支撐到最後我們認為我們需要一個更高位的那都是事行10年、20年以上我們認為一個基本法的時機純熟了"},{"start":6113.51,"end":6114.331,"text":"二、行政院函請審議〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案"},{"start":6139.033,"end":6166.488,"text":"先求一個對於新住民的權益的保障做到位先下手然後先求有再求一個基本法的高位階那是我們未來的一個共同努力的方向所以我個人當初也陷入一下我的這個法案名稱的思考但是我去把過去幾個我們過去成立的台灣有教育基本法、環境基本法、通訊傳播基本法、原住民族基本法、客家基本法、科學技術基本法、文集法"},{"start":6167.148,"end":6196.25,"text":"海洋基本法、社會福利基本法道路交通安全基本法是最新的它每一個都有這種一般法律先通過然後再累積各個法律執行的經驗然後再抬高一個基本法的位階我認為那樣更純熟更不會為了基本法而基本法所以我個人的主張是新住民權益保障法希望可以爭取大家的同意好不好那這一條也卡了很久不要在名稱上就卡住了這樣一個利益良善的法律謝謝"},{"start":6197.162,"end":6200.386,"text":"好謝謝市長委員請問一下那個國民黨團跟民眾黨團我們是覺得"},{"start":6207.035,"end":6225.93,"text":"剛才大家有講嘛基本法就是大法有大的方向有大的規劃才有下面的走下去嘛不是說我們要這邊設那邊設到最後就浪費政府的資源所以我們希望的是先本來就要設法就是以大法為主我覺得這個是邏輯是對的"},{"start":6227.972,"end":6254.963,"text":"我們堅持新住民基本法大家都已經論述那麼久我覺得大家如果有意見還是我們先暫時保留好不好我們現在往下面那一條走來我們來看一下下一條第一條第一條行政院的提案條文大家看一下然後還有吳思堯委員的修正動議版本然後再來就是我們審查通過的是巧慧委員26人提案通過的大家看一下手上都有資料嗎"},{"start":6257.816,"end":6271.429,"text":"行政院提案的版本跟蘇巧慧委員版本提案是一致的施姚的版本就是文字上比較不一樣而已請問一下這三個大家有什麼意見"},{"start":6273.866,"end":6301.523,"text":"我簡單說明我的修正動議我是拿掉了一句話啦協助其融入我國社會因為我認為最高的目標我們就是大家都是這個社會的一份子啦那你覺得要把它融入好像在現階段你就覺得它沒有融入所以我個人是把這一句話刪除但這我想也不會太重要啦但是這是我個人在意義上的一些表述所以看看大家意見"},{"start":6302.245,"end":6302.889,"text":"請問一下喬惠委員"},{"start":6304.847,"end":6331.494,"text":"而為落實憲法保障多元文化的精神保障新住民的基本權益協助其融入我國社會建立共存共榮的族群關係特制定版法然後司要委員的建議是說把那個協助其融入我國社會拿掉然後行政院的提案也有協助其融入我國社會請問一下部長如果這句拿掉的話像司要委員所提案的版本你們有什麼意見"},{"start":6331.974,"end":6332.254,"text":"羅美玲委員"},{"start":6344.31,"end":6345.831,"text":"為落實憲法保障、平等和多元文化等精神"},{"start":6379.275,"end":6401.326,"text":"憲法保障沒有平等大家看一下那個螢幕上我們就是以這個平等然後再加上那個修正事要委員的修正動議的版本把那個協助期融入我國社會那個也拿掉這樣看一下"},{"start":6405.93,"end":6407.73,"text":"好 大家看一下謝謝我覺得是這樣的我在這一條的部分的話現在司要提出這個版本我也可以支持就是司要的版本那再加上平等這兩個字呢平等的話當然是應該被保障的狀況只是確定一下憲法裡面有平等兩個字有這個概念應該我想應該是有啦"},{"start":6441.045,"end":6459.991,"text":"法治平等和多元文化等精選第七條 中華民國人民不分男女宗教種族階級黨派在法律上一律平等請問一下廖參事來提供你的意見好不好來看一下這個文字在第一條"},{"start":6462.165,"end":6482.381,"text":"那是不是要加一個平等與多元文化所以我們請法制單位來說明一下好不好主席各位委員關於委員羅委員提到的要加入平等這個理念當然尊重大院只是說法制文字上憲法提到的"},{"start":6483.995,"end":6511.466,"text":"保障文化的部分好像是多元沒有特別強調平等那平等是回到另外那個平等的條款對那是另外一個條款那如果要加入平等是不是要放在這個多元的前面還是說後面後面有哪一句話會比較適合像共存共榮這個是不是會比較加在這一句裡面是不是比較妥當"},{"start":6512.165,"end":6517.035,"text":"共存共榮已經沒有了你看一下那個有那個是有的那個"},{"start":6522.771,"end":6531.178,"text":"修正動議的是未落實憲法保障多元文化精神保障新住民的基本權益建立共存共榮的族群關係特制定本法。"},{"start":6543.988,"end":6571.115,"text":"你的建議把那個平等拿掉,他放在哪裡會比較好呢?我只是一個提議啦,出你,比如說建立共存共榮平等之,或者是平等共存共榮之族群關係因為共存共榮比較強調就是大家一起發展,一起基於平等的地位好,我們請修正動議委員這個施耀來"},{"start":6576.203,"end":6604.094,"text":"因為平等是一個概念族群的平等、權益的平等是一個概念那多元文化精神是另外一個概念所以應當把它分立就不會是平等多元文化精神把它寫成一個所以最前面的多元文化精神它是一個概念那平等的話我同意說建立共榮共治"},{"start":6606.365,"end":6625.584,"text":"就我的主張是不要跟平等跟多元化放在一起應該是兩個概念對不對權益平等跟族群平等是多元化是另外一個概念所以平等要分立這樣我直接補充一下好不好大家都想要把平等我認為啦如果真的要放應該是建立共存共榮之族群平等關係這樣子比較順"},{"start":6630.662,"end":6631.763,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6649.634,"end":6676.884,"text":"但等一下我現在再重新回去看我們自己原始的提案是各版本的提案然後還有我們這整部法律案這就是為什麼我們上一次之前主張說這個名稱其實是重要的這個在於說什麼呢當時我們這個新住民權益保障法大家如果沒有忘記的話其實我們是對於我們都肯認應該是不分黨派大家都肯認新住民的身份是一個暫時的"},{"start":6678.385,"end":6702.343,"text":"他跟原住民的身份是不一樣的我們是期待新住民這個暫時的身份在他暫時的狀況下那會過度順我們保障他順利平等的過度了然後他就變成是我們的國民嘛然後他新住民他就不應該是新住民了嘛然後他在新住民的階段的時候他的子女也要應該被保障"},{"start":6703.604,"end":6708.186,"text":"所以每次在法條的用語上面會寫新住民或者是新住民及其子女是這樣的狀況那所以我們在第一條的時候才會把後面我們要做的事情一一的寫上去我們寫了什麼呢我們就是寫說我們為了要保障憲法是我們要落實憲法保障多元文化的精神然後保障新住民的基本權益"},{"start":6728.934,"end":6729.074,"text":"議員王美玲"},{"start":6744.022,"end":6771.439,"text":"我還是可以對姿堯剛剛的版本持一個開放的立場但是我remind大家一下就是說我們剛剛是一個這樣我們之前討論的是一個這樣的狀況所以原來我們在審查會通過的版本其實我覺得已經是相當完整了就是也沒有平等這個不需要放進去然後也是要加一個協助其融入因為這把後面我們在做的措施其實是等於定調定性"},{"start":6773.53,"end":6796.547,"text":"好 謝謝請問於政委員好 謝謝主席我認同前面就是為落實匯法保障多元文化的精神保障新住民基本法建立族群融合匯法平等權利保障這精神特制定本法我是覺得說用這樣子比較"},{"start":6798.382,"end":6806.768,"text":"竹群融合、匯法平等、權力保障之精神、特制定本法。"},{"start":6813.312,"end":6832.43,"text":"對阿,如果這樣子我們就同意你的版本就不用修了嘛對阿,所以我也是同意你的版本啦所以蔓依珍委員是同意這個蘇巧慧委員版本對,原來版本就不用再改如果是這樣的話就原來版本如果要改的話就是把這個放進來這樣的意思而已謝謝小慧委員的提醒我基本上認為程序是重要的啦"},{"start":6832.97,"end":6860.826,"text":"那既然因為我上次沒有參與到前段如果這個是上次我們大家都認為是程序上已經通過的條文那我覺得程序是重要的而且說除非是有什麼一定得加的或是漏掉的東西那而且我也被說服就是說這個整個整個法律是補強他很多人的權益協助他是一個過渡所以這更是足以說明未來數年若干年後如果要提高到基本法的位階的時候可能會去檢視這些階段性的任務"},{"start":6862.827,"end":6862.927,"text":"議員羅美玲等"},{"start":6893.583,"end":6900.184,"text":"委員王美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案例 及新住民權益保障法草案案例 及新住民權益保障法草案案例"},{"start":6921.114,"end":6943.83,"text":"尊重行政院委員版本和我們在委員會審查通過的版本我們進入到第二條 謝謝大家我建議大家如果有要上洗手間的你們可以去因為擔心大家的健康好不好 謝謝我們來看一下第二條"},{"start":6945.373,"end":6953.78,"text":"第二條呢就是新住民的定義我們委員會是保留的那麼行政院提案條文大家看一下他的動議要嗎那個吳思耀委員還有提到修正動議第二條也大家順便看一下謝謝大家看一下同時我們先休息兩分鐘謝謝不好意思"},{"start":6984.391,"end":6985.291,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7014.111,"end":7038.03,"text":"重點是基本法會不會沒有人管其他的去看一下這個基本法基本法規定國家國家應幹嘛政府應幹嘛對不對所以如果是這樣的話那根本就體力上就完全不對我記得我們第一次在審的時候就有一直講這件事情"},{"start":7038.803,"end":7051.793,"text":"對,但是我們有一直講到底是基本法還是權益保障法,它的體力就會完全不一樣,對不對?所以體力到底是什麼?不是,我問一下"},{"start":7061.323,"end":7084.048,"text":"其實所有的基本法根本就沒有主管機關因為它都規定國家國家應、政府應應該是說因為現在立法院通過多數的基本法都是長這種比較宣示性的所以它沒有辦法發揮它基本法應該有的那個效果不然它的效果很奇怪基本法有點像活蛋對啊"},{"start":7085.668,"end":7106.885,"text":"懷疑現在依照現在這個條文定好像沒什麼關係可是將來有一天如果有人放了一個很強制性的規定進去那他就很恐怕的事情對啦現在連憲法都不用 不重要了對啊因為像我們現在講的條例是大陸人進來的規定我剛剛講到那個我倒是 我不是很怕而且你們12條的那個準備好了"},{"start":7107.637,"end":7126.852,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7127.381,"end":7144.036,"text":"政委員說希望不順,但是委員說委員會已經發表了很多不好的沒有啊,我們已經12條已經過了嘛,12條不是保留嗎?12條有過那讓我們可以表達一下,因為尤其在兩岸這一塊,我們一定有很多環境規則"},{"start":7156.954,"end":7161.835,"text":"對,現在什麼要堅持什麼不堅持但是內政部不堅持喔"},{"start":7184.841,"end":7187.325,"text":"我認真跟你說,不要自己講完以後被打臉。"},{"start":7201.027,"end":7215.218,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案件、新住民權益保障法草案件、新住民權益保障法草案件、新住民權益保障法草案件、新住民權益保障法草案件、新住民權益保障法草案件、新住民權益保障法草案件、新住民權益保障法草案件、新住民權益保障法草案件、新住民權益保障法草案件、新住民權益保障法草案件、新住民權益保障法草案件、新住民權益保障法草案"},{"start":7215.538,"end":7243.211,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、"},{"start":7243.951,"end":7250.72,"text":"二、行政院函請審議"},{"start":7251.391,"end":7278.888,"text":"二、行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》、《新住民權益保障法草案》、《新住民權益保障法草案》、《新住民權益保障法草案》、《新住民權益保障法草案》、《新住民權益保障法草案》、《新住民權益保障法草案》、"},{"start":7281.21,"end":7285.238,"text":"二、行政院函請審議"},{"start":7295.28,"end":7311.993,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案例3、新住民權益保障法草案案例4、新住民權益保障法草案案例5、新住民權益保障法草案案例6、新住民權益保障法草案案例7、新住民權益保障法草案案例8、新住民權益保障法草案案例9、新住民權益保障法草案案例10、新住民權益保障法草案案例11、新住民權益保障法草案案例12、新住民權益保障法草案案例13、新住民權益保障法草案案例14、新住民權�"},{"start":7313.074,"end":7334.617,"text":"二、行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》案及《新住民權益保障法草案》案及《新住民權益保障法草案》案及《新住民權益保障法草案》案及《新住民權益保障法草案》案及《新住民權益保障法草案》案及《新住民權益保障法草案》案及《新住民權益保障法草案》案及《新住民權益保障法草案》案及《新住民權益保障法草案》案及《新住民權益保障法草案》案及《新住民權益保障法草案》案及《新住民權益保�"},{"start":7336.098,"end":7358.268,"text":"議員羅美玲等21人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":7375.225,"end":7383.772,"text":"好 謝謝大家好 我們現在"},{"start":7385.76,"end":7406.632,"text":"現在是不是在回歸到我們的第二條我相信大家剛剛已經看了一下這個條文那有一些比較不一樣的部分就是行政院總共有五款然後這個事要委員也是有五款但是呢他事要委員在後面這個全項"},{"start":7408.754,"end":7423.385,"text":"第五款裡面在台灣定居者並沒有說三年羅美玲的版本的定義跟大家比較不一樣"},{"start":7427.089,"end":7441.485,"text":"國民黨、民眾黨是以配偶所以我們大家看一下這個條文裡面的不同大家有什麼看法或者在這個當中我們先請內政部來提出一下你們的一二三四五款的定義好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":7446.275,"end":7463.389,"text":"謝謝昭緯我們在原來跟各位報告有關於新住民權益保障法的時候就有特別跟大家報告就是我們在參考了很多委員的版本之後現在我們的方向就是說它只要是有拘留"},{"start":7464.53,"end":7491.169,"text":"獲得台灣居留的正式權益都是叫新住民保障的範圍而且我們會跟大家報告的就是說我們把入出國移民法還有從事外國專業人才延攬跟雇用法還有台灣地區也就是兩岸人民關係條例裡面的相關規定這些的部分都把它放進來變成它是可以申請在台灣定居的合法的資格"},{"start":7493.23,"end":7505.736,"text":"議案中,婚姻移民、外國人或大陸地區港澳居民、在台長居及居留及相關新住民子女在行政院的適用範圍內提的版本約超過100萬人。"},{"start":7509.818,"end":7527.589,"text":"大概超過100萬人那那個有關於在橋外生或是所謂的這個藍領階級的部分其實他只要轉換他的這個居留的身份仍然可以適用這個新住民的權益的保障那相關的細節我來請我們的組長跟大家做一個簡單的報告請組長做一些更簡要的報告一下讓大家更了解"},{"start":7535.384,"end":7551.271,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7551.451,"end":7552.272,"text":"二、行政院函請審議〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案"},{"start":7569.452,"end":7569.972,"text":"二、行政院函請審議〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案"},{"start":7594.944,"end":7598.807,"text":"規劃期間,他其實也不會記錄永久居留或規劃期間所以一般的國際間的童年也不會把他當作移民畢業後,他只要符合一定的條件取得工作許可也拿到了我們工作應聘的外僑居留"},{"start":7611.418,"end":7628.627,"text":"則可走入永久居留甚至規劃成為我們的國人所以其實他們也會喬生因為身份轉變而進入我們的新住民的範圍所以我們並不是把移工跟僑外生排除並不是而是他們的階段如果在身份後來轉換之後一樣會納入在這個適用範圍內以上補充"},{"start":7634.171,"end":7654.908,"text":"所以您的意思是說你們的版本裡面也把這個移工還有外商都放在裡面了是嗎?不是,就是他們的身份如果轉成中階或是白領的工作者條件達到了以後他們就會進到我們新住民的定義範圍裡面那我們現在的定義裡面是那怎麼樣能拿到他的這個所謂您講的白領階級?"},{"start":7656.629,"end":7673.335,"text":"僑外生透過評點制他滿70分他就可以取得工作許可那有了工作許可就可以申請外僑居留證那他就可以留下來那工作滿一定年限就拿到永居或歸化所以不論是他是居留、永居或歸化他都可以算在新住民的範圍內"},{"start":7676.026,"end":7702.004,"text":"中階是必須在台灣工作6年以上技術跟薪資條件符合一定水準就可以申請成為中階技術人力進到新住民的定義範圍所以未來他也符合新住民基本法權益被保障的部分是這樣子嗎?是那依照你們這樣講的話大概會有多少個人呢?你們推估適用的人數?"},{"start":7704.753,"end":7719.67,"text":"委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權�"},{"start":7722.485,"end":7736.718,"text":"這個條文的關鍵其實是在第一項的第五款我自己的提案其實就回到一個很根本性的問題真的是要就教於部會跟幾位委員的意見大家集思廣益對於"},{"start":7739.659,"end":7767.539,"text":"經過許可在台灣地區定居者我的修正動議是沒有明定滿幾年滿幾年啦那當然我某種程度也可以理解說我們這一步法就是協助新住民他在融入台灣社會的那個過程裡頭要去保障他的權益給予一些extra的協助或是支持所以設定一個年限應當是這樣的思維"},{"start":7769.08,"end":7784.58,"text":"當它我們最希望就是它就是跟我們所有的國人一樣都是平等的那是一個終極的目標但它是在過度的權益保障跟支持上是需要劃一定的年限我某種程度可以理解但是我也不太能夠就是說那為什麼是三年"},{"start":7785.741,"end":7801.512,"text":"為什麼不是五年?為什麼不是七年?我不知道說是有援引其他的法律或是其他你們事行過後的一個合理的時間的計算這個始終是我的疑問所以請說明一下"},{"start":7804.249,"end":7804.549,"text":"羅美玲委員請內政部說明"},{"start":7824.974,"end":7826.815,"text":"在台灣拿到身份證滿三年之後就不具新住民的身份了這個部分真的很需要行政單位來說明為什麼是滿三年之後"},{"start":7841.566,"end":7857.678,"text":"當然我們可以理解就是滿三年之後他拿了台灣的這個身份證可是我是覺得很多不是說滿了三年他就不需要輔導啊他就不需要這些協助啊我是覺得這部分是不是在說明一下跟我們的期待其實是不符的"},{"start":7861.45,"end":7883.738,"text":"內政部長主席目前我們國家的婚姻移民來到60萬其實裡面有4成在台灣已經居住超過20年那裡面有30萬人已經成為國人拿到身分證那根據我們的統計一般而言他在台灣大概4到6年"},{"start":7885.089,"end":7891.294,"text":"其實最多是六年大概左右都會取得身份證但取得身份證之後確實他不可能可能還沒有辦法完全適應所以我們在草案裡面定了這個取得身份證後三年其實目的是讓他跟國人身份有一個重疊延長讓他的銜接可以更順暢所以那個時間他可以去選擇對他有利的一個身份去使用那我們就是希望透過這樣的旋轉可以讓他保護得更周延"},{"start":7914.572,"end":7923.895,"text":"以具有國人身份的時候其實他是享有國人的權益所以如果我們要讓他融入台灣的社會實在不適合再稱他為新住民所以我們希望在這一次的法案裡面有一個這樣的定義就是希望已經拿到身份證的外籍人士他是以成為台灣人而自豪而不是再一直說我是新住民"},{"start":7937.819,"end":7960.151,"text":"因為我們覺得在一個國家裡面實在是需要有更多的認同這個是一個概念所以我們在這次做了一個這樣的設計那大家可能會疑慮就是說那未滿三年那三年以後就都不是了嗎就沒有任何保護嗎那事實上不是因為依照現行其實各部會我們有八大照顧服務措施從92年推到現在"},{"start":7962.072,"end":7973.421,"text":"我們的八大照顧服務措施其實是側重在這個涉及前的很多的保障的權益那因為大家也是從寬的去認定新住民的定義所以其實有很多輔助措施其實並沒有說新住民成為國人他是不適用的我舉個比較具體的例子因為我們內政部負責新住民發展基金那基金裡面有一個很大的計畫就是在從事多元文化以及新住民及子女的賠利活動"},{"start":7991.736,"end":7996.119,"text":"每年申請的案量,主要是NGO和地方政府申請,大概有200多案。這些案子主要是辦理各種生活適應課程、學習類課程、多元文化活動。這些不分是否取得身份證,一律都可以參加。"},{"start":8012.729,"end":8032.239,"text":"因為它的目的其實就是協助他能夠適應在地的生活所以我們的措施不會因為他拿到身份證之後就隔離他就不得適用所以這個在後續相關的配套上是可以透過各部會的法規、措施、要點去做一個規範"},{"start":8035.04,"end":8050.951,"text":"但是不會因為他的身份不是他就不能享有這樣的福利措施所以我覺得我們需要把定義跟後面的一些輔助措施可能要分開思考我們希望讓新住民不要再繼續被稱為新住民因為他如果成為國人的時候我們覺得這個是一個等於說他自己對這塊土地有認同是他自願成為台灣人的一份子"},{"start":8062.239,"end":8063.741,"text":"議員羅美玲等21人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件"},{"start":8077.213,"end":8077.873,"text":"新住民權益保障法草案案例"},{"start":8096.843,"end":8096.883,"text":"供應委員"},{"start":8116.585,"end":8126.137,"text":"讓這些新住民成為國人之後不只三年一樣可以繼續去使用這樣的一個輔助措施讓他們不會使他們的就學權益受到虧損以上補充"},{"start":8128.11,"end":8155.12,"text":"我們請蔓越真委員我覺得組長前後矛盾前面就是定義新住民可以說這個基本法裡面的定義他的身份但是後面不管任何不管權利也好、保障也好、學習也好還有就業也好他都是新住民拿授權證沒有拿身份都是新住民所以我覺得是"},{"start":8156.641,"end":8156.681,"text":"憲政委員"},{"start":8174.045,"end":8177.486,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":8193.569,"end":8194.39,"text":"二、行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》案"},{"start":8218.065,"end":8226.05,"text":"憲法也好、福利也好都針對有需要的人才去應用嘛不是我貼著新住民到處馬路跑,第一個第二個,他覺得,我有跟他講說我們如果說定義新住民就會有框架或者是說他一輩子的新住民的話我們的"},{"start":8242.38,"end":8247.631,"text":"身份證裡面當我們要拿身份證裡面就有那個數據就分了"},{"start":8250.543,"end":8271.579,"text":"民政局只要我們拿到身份證,看哪一個縣市後面的書記就有分,看了就知道說這個是大陸的、這個是陸配的、這個是外配的了,就有分了。這樣是不是這一輩子我們都不能改變,就會爭取新住民的身份了,不是因為在基本法裡面,"},{"start":8272.84,"end":8277.304,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":8295.981,"end":8296.301,"text":"二、行政院函請審議"},{"start":8321.716,"end":8346.67,"text":"不好意思,因為民眾黨團拿到跟行政院版的對照他們剛剛才拿給我看,抱歉也跟在場的委員抱歉他有一些條文是秀在螢幕上面但是我們請智倫委員發言的同時也請他們趕快印好不好,請助理趕快去印"},{"start":8347.27,"end":8348.03,"text":"行政院版本的第一項第1、2、3、5款跟民眾黨團"},{"start":8364.258,"end":8365.419,"text":"委員王美玲等19人分別擬具"},{"start":8393.359,"end":8419.933,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位委員各位官員午安那我這邊想要提出來的就是說因為剩下在討論的是這個保留的第二條有關於這個新住民的這個定義那因為剛剛一開始在討論的時候其實我們也收到民團的這個開記者會的消息他認為說不僅是這個藍領的要加進來連白領的要加進來連藍領的都有都要加進來就是有關於這個移工跟"},{"start":8421.993,"end":8423.934,"text":"依依依依依依依依依依依依依"},{"start":8451.46,"end":8452.08,"text":"請內政部及移民署參考"},{"start":8474.945,"end":8475.706,"text":"新住民權益保障法"},{"start":8495.455,"end":8519.401,"text":"先跟各位報告一下第一個我們所提的這個行政院的版本裡面非常清楚的說明清楚你只要有居留永居這樣的證件的話呢在四年到六年之間會取得中華民國的國民身份證這個在客家基本法或是原住民基本法是不用處理身份證的問題然後他的子女一出生的時候就已經拿到中華民國身份證"},{"start":8520.561,"end":8540.28,"text":"但是在他媽媽還沒有成為我們中華民國國民之前他仍然有受到權益保障法的各項的保障包括說從這個教育、文化、衛福等等都有但是他如果一旦拿到中華民國身份證的時候我們為了要給他更多的保障所以我們叫延長保障三年"},{"start":8543.663,"end":8562.916,"text":"新住民拿到中華民國身份證的時候再給三年的時間可以按照我們原來行政院版本裡面提的八大照顧措施繼續照顧那最終就是希望說我還是一致強調我們都是尊重新住民自己本身的文化、教育、傳統語言都尊重"},{"start":8563.516,"end":8582.045,"text":"但是它成為台灣的中華民國國民身份證的時候需要有的輔導措施在還沒有拿到身份證之前的保障是4到6年拿到身份證之後就是至少再保障3年我們希望這樣的保障結束之後它可以完全融入台灣這樣一個大家庭裡面"},{"start":8584.266,"end":8605.457,"text":"也就是跟一般國民一樣去外面求學、就業或者是其他的照顧福利措施都一模一樣這個是我們原來所說的反而是增加他的福利保障的對象所以我們才會要求說請各位委員能夠同意我們所提的這個新住民的權益保障法我想這個是跟大家再做一下比較清楚的解釋的部分"},{"start":8609.139,"end":8614.042,"text":"邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權"},{"start":8635.854,"end":8636.194,"text":"懶領勞工本土勞工禁核"},{"start":8664.101,"end":8670.924,"text":"麥委員說明完了之後我們再請兩位這個勞動部跟教育部的代表上來好嗎謝謝好回應部長一下我問部長我們是進來台灣我們拿的資料嫁來台灣來這邊工作的要來這邊讀書的他的基樓證的名稱叫什麼對啊叫什麼"},{"start":8694.208,"end":8694.228,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":8718.229,"end":8744.21,"text":"委員的意思是說他們進來的時候要取得居留證之前他們的身份別是什麼?對,所以你說所以他們要申請居留證的時候他的事由上面寫的是什麼?是婚姻進來的還是專業技術投資在台灣居留的?或者是大陸地區港澳居民?或者是移工或者是外甥或是子女是不是有這樣子的名稱?"},{"start":8745.411,"end":8769.653,"text":"那是事由的部分事由區別所以麥委員這是有回答您的問題嗎?是,所以呢他是像說移工進來他也叫外僑居留證但是呢下面的呢他叫移工但是下來台灣他沒有拿到身份證也叫外僑居留證但是下面呢他有住民就一親所以都叫外僑居留證啊"},{"start":8770.794,"end":8775.755,"text":"還有說我們新二代在台灣就是說我們生出來他就是台灣國民因為大家都我們現在要定這個身份在台灣生出來的小孩是新二代但是呢他的身份還沒有納入新住民他的小孩也不叫新二代是不是這樣如果這樣子的定義因為他們比如說他來這邊來"},{"start":8800.066,"end":8803.428,"text":"他們爸爸不一定中華民國啊我一定加台灣人啊是不是?但是我在台灣生小孩就是變成生土黨的新年代嗎?沒有這樣子的定義所以我為什麼要問內政部長說你要去把你們的定義要自己要清楚啦不是說我們要定義進來所以我們的希望的是來台灣的給的身份"},{"start":8830.111,"end":8830.732,"text":"：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具"},{"start":8845.726,"end":8858.833,"text":"邱鎮來到台灣他拿到永久居留他也還不是身份證他也納入在我們的照顧裡面也是在新住民的定義所以他們就不能結婚嗎?拿到身份證才能生小孩嗎?是不是?所以我們是用這樣如果要這樣子的去邏輯我們要的是要怎麼樣去我們我認同說我們要成為中介或者拿到台灣定居證再成為我們這"},{"start":8874.122,"end":8874.583,"text":"案件的新住民定義我認同因為我本來提"},{"start":8879.602,"end":8884.946,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．事由：一、本院內政委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．事由．一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":8905.02,"end":8923.648,"text":"永久或定居證,我們才定位說它成為我們的新住民。這個是我們也是有這樣子的一個共識的。以上報告,謝謝。好,所以就是簡單講一下就是那個脈衣針委員您是也接受行政院版本把蘭妮班尼加進來嗎?對不對?這些民團的建議是不是?你覺得是這樣?"},{"start":8928.049,"end":8930.591,"text":"教育部副司長、研副司長、勞動部發展署中級進副署長"},{"start":8951.789,"end":8960.217,"text":"有關於在台僑外生的狀況目前在台的僑外生我是指修讀學位的大專以上的僑外生人數大概是有6萬5千人"},{"start":8968.906,"end":8997.817,"text":"那他們的就學的保障呢我們有在外國學生來台就學辦法還有僑生回國就學及輔導辦法分別都有明定因為他們出來台灣不熟悉台灣的語言文化所以在入學管道的部分我們都有特別開特殊的管道讓他們可以用申請或是用分發的那這個相關的輔導措施就學期間的輔導措施我們都是在這個辦法裡面去明定那至於說在台就讀的僑外生是不是要納入這個新住民"},{"start":8998.517,"end":9007.621,"text":"基本法或者是權益保障法裡面新住民的規範對象的話那我們是尊重內政部的剛剛提的意見以上報告謝謝我們繼續請勞動部的副署長這個評點我想可能大家知道吧就是如何成為這個橋外"},{"start":9031.129,"end":9035.238,"text":"請教育部國際次來補充一下剛剛部長說你有一些沒說明清楚來"},{"start":9037.899,"end":9063.604,"text":"臺灣生畢業之後如果要成為臺灣的國民的話那他們可以透過評點制在臺灣從事專門或技術性的工作然後以工作的這個年限去累積到符合永久居留的資格的話可以在符合其他的相關條件資格下就去在臺灣申請永久居留以上說明好這個請問一下站上大家這些永久居留的時間你們都應該比我們清楚好繼續我們請這個勞動部的副署長"},{"start":9067.585,"end":9068.946,"text":"說明大家好勞動部這邊說明有關於蘭嶺移工的部分呢在他來到台灣之後工作了6年那他就可以依照相關的條件那成為中階技術人力那這一次行政院的版本就是把這樣的對象已經列進來了那這些技術人力呢原本都是從蘭嶺而來"},{"start":9097.556,"end":9104.04,"text":"所以這些在台灣已經取得一定的技術工作一定的時間那再次的行政院的版本就把它列入是我們新住民的對象那我們勞動部的意見是因為行政院已經透過跨部會的協商所討論出來的今天委員大家拿到了這個版本所以呢我們勞動部的意見就是行政院的這個版本的意見謝謝"},{"start":9122.47,"end":9131.101,"text":"好謝謝教育部跟勞動部都同意這個民團的意見在場的委員也沒有意見如果這個內政部提出來我們大家樂觀取正來請羅美玲委員謝謝"},{"start":9135.654,"end":9162.812,"text":"教育部或是勞動部其實也講得非常的清楚其實我們現在支持的其實就是說喬外申因為階段性身份的轉換之後就是說經過評點制等等留下來然後之後這個身份轉換之後我們說他是新住民並不是說他在學的時候我可以理解不是說他一進來他是學生他就是新住民現在你們的講法是這樣覺得這部分我是可以支持"},{"start":9163.412,"end":9170.195,"text":"再來還有就是說我們還有中階技術勞工他基本上他是由藍領轉白領經過6年的這個時間之後不是他一進來馬上就有新住民的這個身份其實這個我也可以支持啦所以這個部分的話我想基本上大家是沒有問題因為有時候需要去溝通去解釋去這說法要讓大家清楚的去了解並不是說我們拒絕這個是說因為階段性身份的轉換"},{"start":9190.024,"end":9214.981,"text":"當他取得這個身份之後他其實就成為新住民但是這樣子好謝謝我們現在更聚焦了大家手上現在有民眾黨黨團的修正動議那他也是按照我們行政院的這個總共有五款的部分那我想說現在有行政院的版本有民眾黨團的修正動議然後還有這個吳斯亞委員的修正動議是不是我們"},{"start":9216.302,"end":9229.409,"text":"討論一下、休息一下,然後大家針對這幾條問題大家看一下好不好?對,好嗎?好,我們休息五分鐘,然後大家來請內政部然後跟這個修正、提修正動議的委員來討論一下,謝謝"},{"start":9236.924,"end":9252.47,"text":"議員羅美玲等21人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等21人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":9262.072,"end":9280.948,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議︰"},{"start":9290.342,"end":9296.748,"text":"二、行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":9306.118,"end":9322.79,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9323.13,"end":9343.915,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":9345.235,"end":9359.364,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜及法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":9365.205,"end":9386.659,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":9391.783,"end":9404.224,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9409.591,"end":9433.027,"text":"其實他那我必須搞不好第一個人的部分不堅持來這個如果說人的部分不堅持人的部分就叫行政院函凡凡他實際的寫法不一樣但是實際上跟你們行政院函凡凡不一樣但就是第五章的部分你們有提到那個三年把那三年拿掉要提出嗎?"},{"start":9436.33,"end":9458.109,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":9460.691,"end":9481.972,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新"},{"start":9484.494,"end":9498.744,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民基本法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":9500.505,"end":9518.631,"text":"《新住民權益保障法草案》《新住民權益保障法草案》"},{"start":9533.138,"end":9536.779,"text":"二、行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》案"},{"start":9556.957,"end":9583.349,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人及委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案�"},{"start":9596.519,"end":9600.768,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人及委員王美惠等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．事由：一、本院內政委員王美惠等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．"},{"start":9601.846,"end":9609.891,"text":"《新住民基本法草案》《新住民基本法草案》"},{"start":9630.584,"end":9644.778,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":9647.873,"end":9669.59,"text":"條文如果說改成蔓越貞委員的第四條啦你的那原本的第五款你改成蔓越貞委員的第四款那其他照其他照其他照行政院的版本啦但是你那個你們的行政院的第五款改成蔓越貞委員第四款他能不能?對不對?因為"},{"start":9674.195,"end":9679.245,"text":"其實這個行政院版的第一款我覺得寫得比較清楚"},{"start":9682.321,"end":9703.391,"text":"因為他寫比較清楚,他寫,他一開始他寫的是說他是不是,他是把入台灣的身份,把他全部內容清楚,不是把在台灣拿的證件來去做定義。但是你們,你們都是同一類人,你們都是同一類人,那我會說如果對文字來講,他們的寫比較清楚的話,"},{"start":9704.651,"end":9705.392,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":9723.46,"end":9743.015,"text":"本來的委員也是雙頭啊,對不對,怎麼拿到這個簽判點?有沒有什麼自愛難行之處?你們要拿出來有沒有什麼自愛難行之處?不然感覺就是一個行政官員的堅持,好像說我有寫了三年,那以後發生什麼事不關我的事。不然除非你們有什麼現行、有什麼狀況是一定非寫這三點不可。"},{"start":9747.21,"end":9747.41,"text":"二、行政院函請審議"},{"start":9765.427,"end":9767.369,"text":"學姊沒有啊,我們裡面都有"},{"start":9785.549,"end":9805.44,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等26人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等26人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等26人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等26人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、國民黨黨團等26人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草"},{"start":9809.223,"end":9824.782,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":9830.503,"end":9857.159,"text":"議員響鐘"},{"start":9869.127,"end":9871.569,"text":"二、行政院函請審議"},{"start":9887.679,"end":9915.263,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權"},{"start":9915.879,"end":9931.541,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事由、本院內政委員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事由、本院內政委員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事由、本院內政委員羅美玲等19人分別擬"},{"start":9933.323,"end":9956.685,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議⋯⋯"},{"start":9964.134,"end":9988.644,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事宜、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事宜、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事宜、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事宜、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事宜、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事�"},{"start":9989.224,"end":10005.759,"text":"議員響鐘"},{"start":10008.012,"end":10035.518,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":10048.483,"end":10064.399,"text":"謝謝大家的共同討論我來宣布一下第二條的第一款、第二款、第三款、第四款其實民眾黨黨團是接受行政院的版本的"},{"start":10065.34,"end":10087.582,"text":"現在比較有問題的是第五款第五款的後面這個金許可在台灣地區定居未滿三年他們希望能夠他們也同意吳世耀委員的版本把三年拿掉然後再來就是前項第一款第二款金許可居留的外國人以未兼具我國國籍者為限希望這個拿掉"},{"start":10088.723,"end":10089.723,"text":"第二,可拘留的外國人已未兼具。"},{"start":10113.409,"end":10140.809,"text":"就是前項第一款及第二款經許可拘留之外國人一位捐具我國國籍者違憲所以我們比較鎖定這兩個部分我們請羅美玲委員也有一些說明 謝謝好 謝謝我想請教一下因為內政部很堅持這個就是滿三年就拿到身份在滿三年之後就不適用本法我想請教一下教育部教育部你有訂定了一個新住民大學入學辦法"},{"start":10141.229,"end":10167.708,"text":"那你是這個辦法裡面是有具有新住民身份才可以申請那我們知道說很多新住民他都是因為婚姻移民而來很多新住民都是因為婚姻移民那他們早期的時候有很大的機率我們他必須可能要適應這個婚姻生活懷孕生子育兒等等等到他們有時間要去上大學的時候可能已經是"},{"start":10169.109,"end":10170.15,"text":"請教育部來再回應一下"},{"start":10201.91,"end":10225.946,"text":"主席各位委員今天早上我們針對有跟這個議題的部分有請教我們高教師的一個承辦單位他是說因為當時的新住民就學大就讀大學的部分是依據他已經有取得國籍法有取得國籍的一個確認之後他特於相關的一個權利的一個保障讓他去就讀大學部分所以基本上是要取得國籍之後才有辦法去就讀"},{"start":10228.488,"end":10252.976,"text":"羅美玲委員她是要取得國籍之後才能去就讀,你對這個部分?所以意思就是說,就算就是她拿到身份證滿三年之後,她其實不具有新住民身份了,你們是說她滿三年之後就不具有新住民身份了嗎?也許她是在這個拿到身份證第四年、第五年、第六年才想要進入到這大學辦,就要大學去就讀,所以她是適用的嗎?是這樣子的意思嗎?"},{"start":10257.23,"end":10284.298,"text":"請拿麥克風好嗎因為現在大家都會關注這個議題所以你這個就不是如果說按照這個通過的話那就不是新住民大學入學辦法啦你新住民就要拿掉了對 但基本上我們到時候會配合這個法去就民生的修正以上那除了教育部之外我想其他的部會應該有相關類似以新住民以新住民作為這個條件的一些辦法那是不是每個部會都要來修我現在不清楚是不是每個部會都會來修"},{"start":10285.538,"end":10292.942,"text":"我並不希望說這樣子通過之後到時跟新住民有關的一些辦法然後因為不符合這個身份然後就沒有了這個身份可以進入到這個體系裡面去我比較擔心的是怎樣"},{"start":10299.793,"end":10320.93,"text":"好請問一下麥美珍委員有沒有意見認同羅美玲委員的說法嗎對所以其實召委我也認為就是說內政部或者是這個行政院的版本或者是這個第五款的部分其實是有一些爭議存在的好我們再請部長解釋還是請署長解釋"},{"start":10324.817,"end":10343.309,"text":"請您解釋一下就是針對那個部分就是未滿三年的你們到底有什麼自愛難行的部分第二個就是前向第一款第二款經許可居留的外國人已未兼具我國國籍者違憲我想這個最大的問題也就是出現在"},{"start":10344.23,"end":10358.179,"text":"不同政黨像民進黨的羅美玲委員他是新住民的代表然後這個民眾黨的新住民代表蔓越真委員所以他們都有非常多的疑慮是不是也請你們正視好不好謝謝"},{"start":10362.157,"end":10386.967,"text":"我先從後面一位兼具我國國籍這最主要是他可能是雙重國籍他是比如說他還兼具我們的無戶籍國民的身份也是兼具就變成說無戶籍國民如果說我們這一條不規定的話那他可能就是變成新住民了所以這一條還是要保留"},{"start":10388.248,"end":10413.255,"text":"那回過頭來講我們講說未滿三年還是跟剛剛大家的討論就是說如果說我們這個法從法的這個立法的原來的本意我們是希望是說在這個剛來台灣的這幾年拘留的階段或永久拘留的階段"},{"start":10415.996,"end":10423.061,"text":"規劃或定居期間協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助協助�"},{"start":10439.21,"end":10439.23,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":10458.911,"end":10459.552,"text":"二、行政院函請審議"},{"start":10478.236,"end":10490.463,"text":"我想也許在文化上在血緣上你可以這樣子講但是在我們的法律上我們希望說是一定期間他是新住民我做以上的補充"},{"start":10491.532,"end":10515.582,"text":"其實署長這樣的說明我一開始在訂這個新住民的權益或者是基本法的時候我心裡就有很大的感觸這個感觸是什麼呢他的血液裡面不管是來自越南或者是新加坡或者是這個印尼他的血液永遠都是那個國家的血液啊"},{"start":10516.562,"end":10526.453,"text":"那麼他們願意到台灣來加來台灣就是認同台灣這塊土地他喜歡這塊土地但是在我們的法裡面不應把他的血一切斷啊"},{"start":10528.564,"end":10551.029,"text":"委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、"},{"start":10551.829,"end":10568.465,"text":"：一、本院內政委員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案�"},{"start":10569.045,"end":10569.225,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具"},{"start":10595.981,"end":10600.004,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":10620.442,"end":10622.484,"text":"報告一下這個三年的時間是...我先把這個三年的時間跟大家再做一下說明第一個就是我們從頭到尾"},{"start":10638.795,"end":10648.486,"text":"委員張智倫等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":10657.777,"end":10673.672,"text":"因此他會從他的母國到我們台灣來的時候需要有語言上面的協助、文化上面認同的部分或是怎麼樣融合的部分或是照顧或是他生了小孩之後對於台灣文化上面怎麼處理的過渡期間這個過渡期間"},{"start":10676.474,"end":10695.769,"text":"在他取得台灣的中華民國國民生命證之後我們認為要再延長保障就是我們認為他取得台灣的國民生命證雖然跟一般人都一樣了但是他可能還是會有生活適應上的困難因為畢竟只有四年跟六年的時間跟他在母國生活了二十幾年三十幾年畢竟不一樣"},{"start":10696.99,"end":10721.286,"text":"這個延長保障就是我剛所說的那個八大照顧措施裡面譬如說語言還是有點困難生活適應還是有點困難醫療生育還是有點困難需要新住民家庭中心幫他照顧小孩子因為大部分都是屬於婚姻移民所以我們的三年的設計寫未滿三年可能造成很多委員的想法有點這個"},{"start":10722.987,"end":10724.649,"text":"二、行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》案"},{"start":10741.127,"end":10765.99,"text":"我們擔心的就是說如果那個邁委員沒有了解他原來的原意把他取消掉之後就變成永久保障他是新住民那他變成新住民的這個那個這樣子的認同是一輩子的問題那一輩子都可以享受不管是文化的、教育的、語言照顧上但是他一旦成為中華民國國民身份證"},{"start":10767.455,"end":10784.843,"text":"如果有婚姻的問題家庭的問題的話會去尋求我們的縣市地方政府包括社會局也好民政局也好的幫忙這個是我們希望他早日融入的意思所以這個三年的時間就是拿到身份證之後的融入台灣的所有的體系裡面的一個過程而不是阻礙他的過程"},{"start":10790.286,"end":10800.934,"text":"如果他仍然有困難我們當然可以這樣因為我們為什麼提這個三年的原因大家看到了就是我們過去在處理新住民協助的時候我們事實上得到的實際上的案例就是這樣子那剛剛侯孟凱文說那請問你們要花多少錢坦白講我們不曉得要花多少錢"},{"start":10810.541,"end":10820.167,"text":"因為未來我們新住民的權益保障法在通過以後包括那個幾位委員提到知識體系或是建議他在公務員的系統或者是媒體事業等等花了這個錢的部分我們現在沒辦法去處理沒有辦法處理所以這一點請麥委員可以多多支持還是按照我們原來的這個體系來處理因為如果我們未來真的是自愛難行"},{"start":10834.255,"end":10860.252,"text":"或者是認為說新住民覺得說你就是沒有保障我我們再來修法都是一個程序就是我們原先一開始所提到的沒有百分之百完美的法我們先讓人能夠往前走往前走的話走多少然後大家都能夠不是很滿意但是都可以同意的狀況之下我想我們大概是退到這個程度上面所以請這個各位能夠多多支持所以我問一下部長"},{"start":10861.352,"end":10881.418,"text":"吳思耀委員的部分我剛剛跟他解釋了他原來講的未滿三年以為是說在申請的期間其實不是他不曉得是拿到台灣國民身份證之後的三年這樣你說他不曉得來提案喔沒有對不起不好意思我是說他對不起我現在不是不是這個意思不是這個意思我擦一下嘴吳思耀委員人家吳思耀委員剛剛有跟我講他不堅持喔他有跟我講我可不可以理解一下就是說"},{"start":10891.081,"end":10899.072,"text":"未來只要拿到中華民國身份證之後他的新住民身份就已經不存在了是不是這樣按照我們這個法還沒有"},{"start":10910.727,"end":10930.347,"text":"對部長所以你知道嗎你這個概念可能跟我跟在場的兩位新住民的因為我們現在都還稱他做新住民就是他們都拿到中華民國身份了他都還可以做台灣的立法委員所以你們的這個概念能不能讓我們清楚了解一下"},{"start":10931.408,"end":10941.941,"text":"以後是不是只要是拿到中華民國身份以後的三年以後的這些人就都不叫新住民了是不是如此他的名稱上面我們大家都不叫新住民所以大家都要改口"},{"start":10950.809,"end":10969.138,"text":"因為你這個法行政院提案就告訴我們說他拿到國際三聯以後他就不屬於這個被保障的人了對不對那相對之下也就是說他不應該叫新住民了他的身份就是中華民國的人或者是台灣人是這樣子嗎"},{"start":10970.699,"end":10996.438,"text":"這個概念是這樣嗎?委員我想有一點需要再做解釋在文化上面、血緣上面的認同他永遠都是新住民那所以他應該可以跟他的美國聯絡嗎?都沒有問題,這個都沒問題台灣本來就是自由的國家但是我要跟昭偉報告就是我們在處理的是說他怎麼樣變成台灣的百分之百的取得身份證的住民"},{"start":10997.279,"end":10997.64,"text":"議員王美玲等"},{"start":11014.258,"end":11029.804,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":11030.458,"end":11052.455,"text":"她就不叫新住民了她的身份就不是新住民然後立法委員也沒有這個所謂的新住民的委員的代表是這樣的意思嗎她應該也是我們台灣的立法委員報告召委我們現在的譬如說代表政黨的時候呢那個是內部自己在做決策但是在我們的選舉罷免法裡面並沒有一個叫做新住民的立法委員"},{"start":11056.132,"end":11072.623,"text":"總統、委員、駐民的立法院我們也要糾正總統不管是蔡總統、賴總統他們都把他稱為新住民我可以再舉一個例子跟大家報告譬如說很早以前可能那時候高金委員還在我們台灣有所謂的僑選"},{"start":11074.224,"end":11077.146,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":11097.199,"end":11122.442,"text":"不是不是我現在說的是身份如果身份好我們因為時間的關係我覺得說如果部長這麼說的話我們三年就變成台灣人了但是選罷法裡面剛才你說的我們拿到身份證十年以上才能考公職還是公務人員喔所以就拿掉我們就不用限時間了嘛對不對如果這樣子的話對就不用限啊"},{"start":11123.583,"end":11136.387,"text":"對呀,我們拿到,我們要來台灣拿身份證,新住民3年可以辦,5年拿到,陸配的話6年才能辦。但是呢,我們要在台灣拿身份證10年以上才能參政,才能去考公務人員。"},{"start":11141.408,"end":11142.008,"text":"二、行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》案"},{"start":11160.559,"end":11180.091,"text":"羅美玲委員跟麥密貞委員可能就比我還更熟悉了解這個部分所以你的理解是不是就是三年之後他就不具有新住民身份了是這樣子我們不管是要去成為被獲選人確實是外籍我們是外籍人是入籍"},{"start":11180.871,"end":11181.211,"text":"案件在國籍法中?"},{"start":11206.732,"end":11209.033,"text":"國籍法裏面所以大家討論一下我們再休息一下"},{"start":11225.396,"end":11242.229,"text":"來 這個先跟大家解釋一下好了 行政單位解釋一下因為那時候 因為新住民沒有法律定位 所以新住民不會入法對 所以不會有新住民這三個字這個很大的問題就是說不管是我們的蔡總統 不管是我們賴總統他們對外說的都是新住民這個名稱"},{"start":11243.67,"end":11264.164,"text":"所以新住民這個名稱也就是在我們今天要提案的這個法因為叫做新住民權益保障法或者是新住民基本法它的名稱的定義就在那裡了所以今天入法之後拿到三年中華民國身份三年之後它就不叫新住民的意思"},{"start":11265.084,"end":11285.092,"text":"但是應該是這樣子跟主席報告像過去其實有很多不管是行政單位他們在執行一些跟新住民有關的福利政策其實都是用行政命令沒有正式入法所以我們這次才會把它正式入法就連同新住民這個過去也都沒有法律的定義所以我們現在才要來定義就是這樣子是沒錯可是新住民是在很早以前應該是在"},{"start":11287.233,"end":11308.813,"text":"民國92年的時候突然間產生那時候說因為用外籍配偶或用外籍新娘有歧視的這個狀況存在所以才產生了所謂的新住民所以我們現在一直在說新住民到底定義是什麼我們現在才來定義的是的沒錯是這樣子它沒有法律定位完全沒有"},{"start":11314.55,"end":11316.271,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":11335.552,"end":11349.419,"text":"對,可能我們要理解一下,因為我的理解,因為以前沒有任何有法律定義審理的新住民嘛,對不對?對啊,你想想,他是外籍人士,我們目前他不可能入法,因為他並沒有法律定義,他不可能入法。"},{"start":11350.7,"end":11372.127,"text":"一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具"},{"start":11375.368,"end":11398.114,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人及委員王美惠等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":11399.394,"end":11429.394,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11429.394,"end":11444.443,"text":"只有台北市校移工和外出生其實我們的院訪是只有移工和外出生沒有的那有條件可以進入的所以你的意思是這邊這邊都有還有一個分別"},{"start":11456.736,"end":11472.049,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":11473.95,"end":11499.437,"text":"議員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員"},{"start":11500.657,"end":11524.597,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":11527.483,"end":11536.749,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11539.911,"end":11564.803,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權"},{"start":11566.263,"end":11593.974,"text":"二、行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》案 及《新住民權益保障法草案》案 及《新住民權益保障法草案》案 及《新住民權益保障法草案》案 及《新住民權益保障法草案》案 及《新住民權益保障法草案》案 及《新住民權益保障法草案》案 及《新住民權益保障法草案》案"},{"start":11595.014,"end":11616.428,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案"},{"start":11618.108,"end":11621.61,"text":"二、行政院函請審議新住民權益保障法草案案例"},{"start":11644.822,"end":11662.021,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、"},{"start":11662.824,"end":11674.891,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案件案"},{"start":11690.263,"end":11701.631,"text":"二、行政院函請審議"},{"start":11706.714,"end":11723.073,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":11725.316,"end":11740.173,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件、國民黨黨團等19人分別擬具:「新住民權�"},{"start":11740.333,"end":11766.199,"text":"二、行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》、《新住民權益保障法草案》、《新住民權益保障法草案》及《新住民權益保障法草案》及《新住民權益保障法草案》及《新住民權益保障法草案》及《新住民權益保障法草案》及《新住民權益保障法草案》及"},{"start":11767.939,"end":11780.471,"text":"蔣官好蔣官現在在哪裏郵遞了郵遞了那我原本覺得其實那種民主黨派不是的同性戀他是對他後來調動民主黨還是做民主黨派不是的同性戀"},{"start":11792.964,"end":11813.739,"text":"好 謝謝各位大家辛苦了大家都很認真很努力的再來協商這個行政院終於提出的版本那麼我來宣佈一下第二條一、二、三、四款基本上是沒有意見的大家但是對於第五款這個"},{"start":11817.051,"end":11840.374,"text":"最後的定居未滿三年還有第二項部分我們在場的委員有一些不同的意見跟看法我們希望行政單位能夠再跟尤其是兩位新住民的委員再多溝通一下所以第二條我們也讓他保留"},{"start":11841.135,"end":11856.391,"text":"議會議員"},{"start":11856.611,"end":11875.18,"text":"希望因為行政院版本其實已經提出來了我們下一次的協商的時候如果各黨團或各委員有一件是不是你們提出這個修正動議然後將我們對照起來就是以行政院的這個條文跟版本來對照像今天施要委員提的修正動議這個部分"},{"start":11876.3,"end":11876.84,"text":"﹚立法院朝野黨團協商："},{"start":11900.104,"end":11900.445,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"16053","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16053","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dda19b75ace6be70bc7fc3bcde97bbf5944f242ceca957783912a18239f8c236665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-02T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第18次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第1會期第21次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-02","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-02T11:30:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T12:16:00+08:00","duration":2751,"影片長度":"00:45:51","委員發言時間":"11:30:09 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時間綜合名為143年7月5日星期五9日星期二上午9時至下午6時 地點本院長報告事項一 宣讀本院第11屆第1會期第20次會議議事錄二委員您願請登記"},{"start":1972.518,"end":1986.581,"text":"生意障礙者權益保障法﹚社會福利及衛生環境委員審查三日期委員和新存等局勞工保險條例﹚勞工退休金條例勞動基準法﹚社會福利及衛生環境委員審查陸海空軍軍官事官福利條例交外加持國防委員審查交通"},{"start":1988.382,"end":2005.288,"text":"交通部﹑郵電事業人員﹑退休撫恤條例﹑487法治交通兩文一審查﹑89文明一件等局﹑青年基本法則交易及文化文明審查﹑數位新聞發展與民主人性法則交通交易及文化兩文一審查﹑15文翻譯等局﹑新住民權利保障法將內政委審查是一致四"},{"start":2006.668,"end":2032.603,"text":"委員陳經輝等據私立學校法加教育局文化委員審查憲規平等工作法身份障礙者權利保障法就業保險法交稅為福利及衛生環境委員審查事務委員吳佩義等人群新住民權利保障法加內政委員審查事務委員陳學聖等據地老建設條例加經濟委員審查有限廣播電視法衛星廣播電視法加交通委員審查社會福利基本法成立照顧服務法緊急醫療救護法交稅為福利及衛生環境委員審查"},{"start":2033.323,"end":2049.181,"text":"二十四委員大院委員等局執委人僚事法加經濟委員審查二十五委員陳培玉等局行政訴訟法加司法及法座委員審查二十六至二十七委員羅廷輝等局學生輔導法加教育區文化委員審查上年事件處理法加司法及法座委員審查二十八行政院判決審議"},{"start":2050.522,"end":2069.812,"text":"國家語言研究發展中心設置條例將司法及法治教育、文化兩位審查二九至兩百三十九國防部中選會、內政部、海委會、經濟部、農業部、金管會、財政部、教育部、文化部、交通部、勞動部、衛福部、環境部、法務部、國發會、公平會、和安會、國科會、國安會、司法院、權序部等含送書面資料交相關委員會"},{"start":2071.433,"end":2097.995,"text":"240 社會福利及衛生環境外交及國防兩委員會 航運委員會交付事項面積分審查 完整請查上241 教育及文化委員會 航運域行政委員會審查期限 請查上國民黨黨團提議增列一文 翁曉寅等據 憲法訴訟法 加司法及法座委員審查二文 羅天威等據 外送平台管理器創業人員權益保障法 交稅福利及衛生環境委員審查三 國民黨黨團一區消防法 加內政委員審查四至五文 王玉敏等據"},{"start":2098.895,"end":2108.41,"text":"環境影響評估法﹚外線平臺管理及從業人員權益保障法﹚教社會福利及衛生環境文言審查﹚對文言料理相對認証﹚學生輔導法加教育及文化文言審查"},{"start":2109.69,"end":2135.215,"text":"民運黨黨團第1屆第7至10期委員林英卿等委員黃潔等委員蔡宇宇等委員郭一卿等委員張航路等委員張仁雅玲等委員林瑞卿等委員李博一等委員吳秉瑞等委員陳佩玉等委員沈博洋等分別引據臺灣地區與大陸地區人的關係條例將內政委員審查18至19行政院函送國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名單請同意案交交通教育文化良文審查採用凡人國家"},{"start":2135.975,"end":2161.676,"text":"國防工業發展基金會一百十二年度決算書案加外交及國防委員審查二是數位發展部寒送臺灣法人電信技術中心及臺灣網路資訊中心一百十五年度決算書案加交通委員審查臺灣各黨黨團第1屆第21至26臺灣各黨黨團理局都會交通管理主法條例加交通委員審查外送平臺管理及從業人員權益保障法身份障礙者權益保障法加社會福利及衛生環境委員審查再生人員發展條例"},{"start":2162.717,"end":2167.401,"text":"在我們請這個登記委員發言之前我們先做一個宣告報告委員會我們這個議程增列報告事項第三案提案黨團來函予以撤回所以我們就把這個第三案把它予以刪除"},{"start":2192.841,"end":2193.061,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2214.008,"end":2221.55,"text":"本院臺灣民眾黨黨團針對第11屆第1會期第21次會議議程日程針對報告事項第7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16以及17案建請暫緩列案外其餘報告事項執行事項以及對行政院長報告施政方針繼續執行均照議程日程草案以針對報告事項通過是否"},{"start":2244.318,"end":2257.226,"text":"有當進行公決提案人臺灣民眾黨立院黨團好 謝謝接下來我們請登記第二位請林委員處應發言"},{"start":2267.615,"end":2287.347,"text":"謝謝主席 針對第11屆第1會期第21次會議議程報告事項 執行事項及對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續執行 建請照議事日程草案及增列報告事項 通過提案人 民主進步黨 立法院黨團 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佔值真的強了。其實就您剛剛所說的是電子股相關的。這一波台灣首柱兩萬點, 因為這個股市是經濟的櫥窗。我們看到風起雲湧啊, 了不起啊。NVIDIA的董事長王文勛是哪裡人?"},{"start":2139.134,"end":2165.464,"text":"臺灣人臺南人所以我覺得臺南也蠻厲害的臺南這個地方你看出了幾個總統那我們也發現臺南居然除了他還有蘇之鋒還有Charles就是Supermicron的部長可能都知道真的是臺灣人的驕傲所以希望在這個時刻"},{"start":2166.943,"end":2192.978,"text":"院長也好好思考一下怎麼樣把這些好的人才引進到臺灣不曉得院長認不認識黃仁勳當然對這樣的一個世界級的大企業的領導者我們都對他相當的敬仰我想我們郭部長因為產業出身他更曉得整個經濟這個電子產業的許法不曉得郭部長認不認識黃仁勳"},{"start":2194.755,"end":2196.696,"text":"市長,你既然認識這些人我覺得你要為全民來發聲"},{"start":2213.971,"end":2225.581,"text":"大家包括Google包括Apple總部或者是研發中心等等很多人都說要回到臺灣但是現在最怕的一點就是說會缺電會跳電怎麼辦"},{"start":2230.483,"end":2245.438,"text":"報告委員,我們現在這個電都有考慮這些公司所需求的電力,以目前我們所準備的要上線的電跟我們要下載的這些電加總起來我們到這個2030年事實上還有200枚的這個餘量站。"},{"start":2248.46,"end":2265.496,"text":"最近我們台電因為這個設備的這個老舊或者是在某一個地區大量的這個移居的人增加所以造成那個負荷會比較大一點所以會產生跳電的現象這個我想"},{"start":2265.976,"end":2286.534,"text":"但是如果說我們今天來看我們從這個最近這個10年就是每一年的跳電的次數跟當今來比現在並沒有比較多現在只是因為媒體的報導反而好像他每天看到都有個跳電但是如果以過去的資料來講我們大概已經降了差不多七成的這個跳電"},{"start":2287.415,"end":2313.516,"text":"不過這個我想不是理由啦我有責成臺電一定要優先把這些跳電的地方給他整理好你也很理智的齁其實這些外商也好剛所講這些大公司齁他不管你跳不跳電他也不管你什麼小鳥或者是松鼠影響到這個斷線他心裡講說到底會不會缺電供電的品質啊會不會良好這點你能做到嗎"},{"start":2314.881,"end":2336.742,"text":"我們很清楚有一些工廠或數據中心它是不允許跳電所以在這個部分我們會強化加強那部分的保護措施科學園區、重要區絕對不可以停電不可以跳電但是其他民眾民生的用電都欠缺了"},{"start":2338.007,"end":2365.378,"text":"也不是這樣子因為我們現在因為其實人力有限所以我們一直在做把這個妥算力要加強只是我們現在可能要跟跨部會的這個單位協商我們可能要從這個國外引進一些這些工人好謝謝那我想請問一下卓院長這樣子說起來的話現在那個2025的所謂政府的非核家園的目標現在會不會改變"},{"start":2366.938,"end":2391.175,"text":"報告委員非核家園是定在我們2002年通過的環境基本法23條所以是現在的法律就是逐步朝向非核家園這中間會有很多的途徑很多的過程很多的努力那現在我們朝向這個過程但現在政府最優先的責任還是安全穩定的供電現在核三要停役的問題你怎麼看"},{"start":2392.011,"end":2392.311,"text":"一定就是廚藝了"},{"start":2417.975,"end":2429.661,"text":"依照核管法這必須處理那這樣如果處理的話為了我們整個配電的比例來講那就少掉那一塊大概有沒有15%左右大概是應該是4%左右3、4%那少掉這一塊的話你要怎麼補上去"},{"start":2440.891,"end":2467.199,"text":"我們有幾個電廠,包括在桃園的大潭會升上來,然後在南部也有電廠會升上來。所以你們已經做好了準備嗎?是,我們是做好了準備。未來缺不缺電?缺電,電力是不是缺少,這個我們肯定跟委員報告是不會。不會缺電?不會缺電。"},{"start":2469.878,"end":2493.256,"text":"你應該要很清楚然後把整個事情講明白那也希望下一次Jason黃仁勳來的時候請你也拜託你既然你跟他認識你大力來跟他介紹一下新北因為我們新北包括侯友宜侯市長非常熱忱的歡迎"},{"start":2495.285,"end":2507.975,"text":"王仁勳、NVIDIA總部可以設在新北,或者是設在新店更好。因為也很感謝本席多年的爭取,"},{"start":2509.363,"end":2529.827,"text":"保高暖體智慧園區第一期已經完工,很多Tesla、鴻海都進駐了,就是在保橋路旁邊,保高暖體智慧園區,經濟部也補助了大概26億左右,當然還有第二期、第三期,在這裡也要拜託我們"},{"start":2531.189,"end":2553.068,"text":"國部長,下一次見到他或是待會有空打個電話給他,我們新北新電熱誠的歡迎全世界最棒的公司NVIDIA可以到新電設廠,把新電當作是一個永久落地的好地方。能不能拜託國部長轉達這件事。"},{"start":2554.87,"end":2564.388,"text":"我可以轉達委員你的這句話,我想我們會如實的轉達。感謝,謝謝,謝謝。那這樣我就再問不下去了。"},{"start":2566.731,"end":2594.022,"text":"謝謝因為你如果做這件事情的話對我們新店來講如果能成功的話因為他的交通便利他的環境又好人文人才各方面可以說是萬事潔北唯欠東風感謝郭部長如果你能促成這件事情的話那對我們新店對整個新北對整個北台灣台灣來講未來發展真的是無可限量在這裡也拜託你"},{"start":2594.841,"end":2616.472,"text":"另外我們看到股市2萬點了接下來我們希望一起努力打拼甚至可以上看3萬點、4萬點但是很多人擔心的包括美商、歐商擔心的就是地緣政治的問題我想請問一下院長"},{"start":2617.452,"end":2618.973,"text":"所以不去碰那一塊了?"},{"start":2644.673,"end":2663.212,"text":"我們現在已經是主權獨立的國家,無需要再做任何其他的我希望說,因為多數的台灣人民都是希望維持現狀因為在台灣我們生活也都很開心,風衣足食但是我們更期盼兩岸是和平的"},{"start":2664.473,"end":2688.485,"text":"我們等距的三角關係跟美國也好跟日本也好跟大陸也好我們是友善的人民我們的文化是和善的最重要的是讓台灣這個地方是一個永久和平的場所我們在這邊都好好工作所有人民安居樂業我想這樣就是100分啊"},{"start":2689.738,"end":2708.66,"text":"我覺得台灣的現狀就是應該和平穩定經濟發展讓人民安心謝謝院長那接下來我要請教的話就是政府一直在大力推動說希望台灣成為整個亞太中心的財富管理中心資產管理中心或是"},{"start":2710.862,"end":2731.476,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":2732.157,"end":2745.068,"text":"協調各部會,有交通部啊,高速公路啊,或者機場等等啊,比較大型有效益的可以讓他整個發REIT或是發基金的方式,不曉得院長協調好了沒。"},{"start":2747.34,"end":2772.338,"text":"謝謝委員的指教這個就是現在我們積極在進行的包括亞洲資產管理中心我們也請金管會能夠做一些全面性的評估那麼有一個具體的措施出現那我希望在這未來的兩個月當中我們能讓國人看到我們在這個地方展現出來的計畫跟未來推動的方向跟目標跟時程至於說我們在海外的很多資金包括保險業者很多資金"},{"start":2773.058,"end":2781.416,"text":"如何有效的運用他們回來臺灣之後投入到一個可以增加臺灣基礎建設公共建設的這樣的或是長照等等"},{"start":2782.956,"end":2810.381,"text":"復合這會正面發展的用途上面去。有一些修法的部分,如果需要的話,我這邊也會趕緊來提。因為實際內關係,最後也要拜託院長,因為我們新店還有相關很多地方,高地、老舊社區,沒有自來水,沒有一個穩定的水質可以喝。在這裡拜託院長,是不是可以責成相關,包括經濟部,大家一起來關心一下最基本的民生問題。"},{"start":2811.374,"end":2811.394,"text":"謝謝羅委員"},{"start":2843.57,"end":2845.9,"text":"謝謝卓院長接下來請張志倫委員質詢"},{"start":2865.339,"end":2872.082,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們是不是有請卓院長跟我們的陳部長農業部陳部長卓院長還有陳部長請備詢"},{"start":2886.056,"end":2901.062,"text":"院長、部長早安。今天是我們經濟委員會的質詢。還是先跟院長跟部長講,辛苦了。最近質詢很多。也跟你們報告,就是說最近國會改革已經三讀通過。"},{"start":2903.863,"end":2928.697,"text":"行政院的副議案也在立法院的大家的投票之下副議案也沒有通過所以國會改革無法已經正式上路那最重要的我們民眾注意關心的就是國會的聽證權跟調查權也是本席非常在意的那在過去我的選舉當中其實我就本席是會計師所以對這個很多的過去民眾所關心的一些議案我非常的在意"},{"start":2929.637,"end":2952.283,"text":"那本席所以今天就要繼續來問其實本席在3月的時候就有跟當時的代理部長陳部長討論過超思雞蛋的問題這超思這家公司大家知道資本額50萬過去在112年的時候進口了8000多萬顆的巴西蛋結果後來有說5000多萬顆就是因為等著要報廢那最近也報廢了嘛對嗎部長是"},{"start":2953.283,"end":2971.245,"text":"那總共花了人民大概10億的納稅錢嗎?還是多少錢?大概10億多一點。對,所以我的數學還不錯,花了10億的納稅錢。那想不到我們在追查的時候,當時我在3月的時候追查超市雞蛋的時候,發現不只在超市在112年有進口巴西8000多萬克的雞蛋,"},{"start":2971.785,"end":3000.283,"text":"在111年的時候超司也將近進口了2500萬顆的雞蛋結果最近在很多立法院同仁的努力追緝之下結果發現結果現在超司他還有一個前身叫做亮采進口了500多萬顆的雞蛋所以我想要今天針對部長也跟院長報告一下超司居然還有錢賺那想要先請問一下這個部長這個有一家公司叫做亮采"},{"start":3001.184,"end":3011.564,"text":"他居然有採購這個日本的雞蛋將近這個500多萬顆那請問一下部長對於這個亮彩這家公司有沒有做KYC的了解"},{"start":3012.726,"end":3036.168,"text":"我跟委員說明齁,亮彩的500多萬顆是在3月跟4月之間用合約的方式去購買的。那後續4月以後的一個雞蛋是由亮彩公司來進口,有一段時間。那進口了以後,後續在相關的那個經費,我們經費提供的時候是由超司,他用委任的關係由超司來領款。"},{"start":3036.974,"end":3041.453,"text":"好謝謝部長齁所以我就是要跟部長跟院長報告我們可以看到我們的這家"},{"start":3043.107,"end":3071.679,"text":"兩彩的公司他的資本額只有100萬然後我們去查一下他的負責人他的負責人他有用一家投資公司去投資投資這個兩彩生物科技的這家公司叫做成澤企業有限公司他的負責人姓王我們去查的話他背後是一家生技公司做醫美的請問部長跟院長覺得一家這個做醫美的公司來進口日本的雞蛋部長院長你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":3072.239,"end":3076.402,"text":"謝謝院長的回答那部長你知道過去這個亮彩公司他有進口過日本雞蛋的經驗嗎?"},{"start":3091.107,"end":3114.595,"text":"我跟委員說明過去的雞蛋大概都是由我們國內供應那在111年開始才有比較明顯的一個因為疫情的關係因為天后的關係造成缺點才有從包括那個美國澳洲跟日本來進口部長我問你的就是日本這個量產進口那請問一下我跟這個部長跟院長報告其實量產過去他在111年"},{"start":3116.355,"end":3135.175,"text":"﹚前,他是沒有進口過日本蛋的經驗﹚所以這才是讓人民覺得很納悶的﹚為什麼一家100萬資本額的公司﹚可以進日本的雞蛋﹚然後後來還要請問一下﹚一個大家最重視的一個問題﹚那時候亮采在進口雞蛋的時候﹚3、4月有進口這個一批﹚"},{"start":3136.096,"end":3159.252,"text":"然後到最後在111年的8月的時候也有進口一批可是進口完了以後,居然是這個超市付給他這個錢他們倆的關係是什麼?為什麼他要幫他付這個錢?我跟委員說明齁,就是相關的這些量產跟超市之間的商業的關係因為我們在行政調查的時候是有發現到一些餘地必須澄清的所以我們已經移送給檢調單位去查處了"},{"start":3160.769,"end":3177.59,"text":"的確部長這個回答其實我本期已經有收到相關的消息那可是也要我問一下農業部的一些就是一些官員他們也說其實超市跟量產他們中間是有一個這個委託的委託書還是一個讓渡書嗎請問有這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":3180.649,"end":3194.943,"text":"對就是他們在付款的時候有相關的一些委任的一個書狀在那邊所以我們付款是針對委任的部分然後開發票去提誰開發票我們付給誰但是後面的一些疑慮我們已經請檢調單位再查清了"},{"start":3196.932,"end":3220.468,"text":"所以這就是本席要跟院長跟部長講的一家過去沒有日本進口蛋經驗的超市公司委託一個過去沒有進口日本蛋的一個量產公司然後他們兩個中間還有錯綜複雜的關係那不管是續產會過去一直以來跟農業部的交通跟交涉都非常的困難導致這個量度書的部分我相信也是很晚才提供給農業會來看到"},{"start":3221.849,"end":3235.4,"text":"那我想要請教一下齁,量產的部分其實當時是有跟這個續產會簽約嘛,所以他是用一個委託的方式,他可以收取,除了進口日本雞蛋以外,他可以收取8%的手續費。"},{"start":3236.857,"end":3236.997,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":3258.584,"end":3272.895,"text":"政府的續產會要求農業部做一個緊急的補貼補貼的本來核定是1億7最後實質補貼了八千九百多萬那我算一下齁我用計算機算了一下齁他這個實質的差額補貼將近高達50%那我想要請教部長的就是說"},{"start":3278.76,"end":3285.266,"text":"有簽合約的只補貼手續費8%沒有簽合約的量產補貼8%沒有簽合約的超市補貼緊急去產會要求農業部補貼的實質差額將近達50%請問這樣子合理嗎?"},{"start":3296.158,"end":3321.687,"text":"我跟委員說明這個之間可能有些誤解用合約的方式是照著合約走是8%的服務費那用買斷的方式就是說他負責從日本進口但包括內陸的運費包括裡面的關稅跟他運輸的費用那最後我們給他的就是已經到指定地點的時候的一個付錢所以不是直接用他當地的一個價錢減掉我們付款的價錢這個我想之間的資訊有點誤差"},{"start":3324.195,"end":3344.82,"text":"好,所以我要跟這個,所以第一個啊,我先謝謝部長的解釋啦,我相信院長在旁邊聽的應該是覺得非常不能接受啦。那我再請教一下,所以到最後,這個我們續產會有辦理這個111年進口雞蛋的一個查核報告,裡面特別,有很多委員也提出,特別提出了"},{"start":3345.444,"end":3368.717,"text":"就對針對雞蛋採購的部分是因為緊急採購可以不用採購法的一個條文意思就是說可以不用去三方比價可是針對這個冷鏈倉儲的部分租金跟運費的部分這邊也有提出來說當時是沒有依照採購法是有疏失的那我們有其他委員也說既然超市進口日本蛋的時候"},{"start":3369.597,"end":3396.023,"text":"都有疏失那超失進口巴西蛋的時候相關的這個冷鏈倉儲租金跟運費你們已經準備好要收回50%的費用了嗎?跟委員說明一下就是在110年度的時候我們是用例行的產價調節計劃先給他計劃先有一個計劃在那邊那他根據他沒有依照採購法的部分依政府的規定要在50%以下那這個部分我們已經追繳他們也繳回來"},{"start":3397.003,"end":3423.671,"text":"那至於112年的部分我們是後面才提供一個補助所以在審核計畫的時候就已經把相關的不符合政府採購法的部分都已經扣掉了所以沒有所謂的說112年在追繳的一個問題所以112年不會追繳?不會因為是我們後面才核定的對我們後面核定的時候我們就有去檢視不符合政府採購法的部分我們的補助一定是50%以下"},{"start":3425.247,"end":3451.88,"text":"好,那最後我要跟院長跟部長講,我們有去算過啦,最後這個量彩喔,他在進口這個日本蛋的時候一顆大概是6塊多塊7塊可是超市在進日本蛋的時候一顆基本上是7塊以上所以顧名思義就是政府續產會他在採購的金額是越來越高,跟大家所想的不一樣而且最重要我們有去稍微算了一下這個"},{"start":3454.053,"end":3471.135,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3471.974,"end":3489.492,"text":"好,跟委員報告,無論超私跟政府、量財跟政府或是超私量財之間,一切的行為必須合法而且依照合約來走,否則現在我們已經移送檢調單位在進行調查。那這個事件到讓我們引以為見,未來在從事任何"},{"start":3490.293,"end":3512.172,"text":"或許包括這種緊急需要的情況底下我們還是要慎選合作的對象看看他是不是能夠如實的履行合約有沒有這個能力而且我們對他是不是合約又轉嫁出去的這個行為要做適當的限制才能保障我們跟他之間直接合約關係的權利義務關係我想這個給我們很大的一個啟示跟未來的一個學習"},{"start":3512.893,"end":3533.59,"text":"好,謝謝院長。每次質詢院長的時候,我發現院長其實他是一個非常nice的人。其實就是要跟這個部長跟院長講,其實超失雞蛋案,其實花了大家人民很多的納稅錢,也花了很多立法委員去查核的這個時間。那我們長期以來,越農越富,不知道是不是跟續產會溝通上有一些問題。"},{"start":3534.631,"end":3558.147,"text":"所以很多時候我們立法委員去調資料的時候都自愛難行所以我要拜託我重新再講一次就是超私他在過去購買巴西蛋的時候他買了8000多萬顆結果裡面有5000多萬顆是沒辦法用的然後浪費人民納稅錢將近10億然後最近很多委員也在追現在剩下來這些雞蛋他到底能不能食用這也是一個問號"},{"start":3559.148,"end":3576.126,"text":"結果大家往前去追的時候才發現111年的時候超市還有去買日本雞蛋結果他當時還是有買賣斷的情形結果112年他又變成這個貿易商不僅可以收8%的手續費還補貼巴西蛋非常多的金額"},{"start":3576.867,"end":3591.543,"text":"結果最後還追到超私的還有一個前身就是亮采結果他在購買的時候他的相關的這個內容跟購買的方式也讓大家沒有辦法接受就他沒有根本沒有進口日本蛋的時機啊所以我覺得這種種"},{"start":3593.345,"end":3618.64,"text":"我希望這個叫做超思這個巴西蛋跟超思錢鑽就是我們的日本蛋我希望趕快落幕不要讓花人民那麼多的納稅錢又花很多這個我們所有委員這個這個質詢的時間好嗎好謝謝我跟你講我們已經送一送檢調我們相信檢調單位應該很快的會去釐清好那我們謝謝部長我們接下來剩一點時間我們是可以請經濟部的這個部長請郭部長謝謝"},{"start":3623.303,"end":3623.324,"text":"國務部長請備詢"},{"start":3633.262,"end":3656.277,"text":"部長好,因為時間的關係我第一次有機會跟您見面,那想不到在質詢臺上,那我也是要跟你講說辛苦了,這部長非常不容易做。其實我觀察部長一段時間,部長從一開始是說這個核能是可以大家可以討論的,如果民意可以來去做一個大家可以做一個統整的一個意見,其實你不排斥核電。"},{"start":3657.097,"end":3657.757,"text":"報告委員我們的這個電力的政策應該是沒有改變"},{"start":3686.499,"end":3690.127,"text":"至於說能不能討論,我想應該是可以討論的議題。"},{"start":3692.455,"end":3718.958,"text":"那這個未來是不是這個河山要不要研議,這個問題我們尊重大院的這個決定。那經濟部是執行單位,那只要在法的框架之下,那我們必須要依法行事。所以我想這個立法院能夠決定,就是我們做的事情的一個依法。謝謝,謝謝郭部長。部長,那個院長部長這樣講,您的看法是怎樣?如果大院,如果認為核電要研議,您的看法是不是跟郭部長一樣?"},{"start":3719.69,"end":3741.233,"text":"其實我剛剛也表示過現在依照核管法時間已經過了5年的時間了但是如果進行修法那修法會修成什麼狀況條文怎麼樣我們現在也不能夠預測那修法之後行政院是有依法行政但是我們也希望大家在討論的時候核安的問題核廢料的處理以及如何取得社會的共識大家都能夠很理性的來討論"},{"start":3742.154,"end":3752.809,"text":"沒錯,那我實際的關係最後請教一下部長,因為大家都非常關心額外,可是也很怕台灣跳電跟缺電。那而且尤其我上次在總質詢的時候我有請問,請問今年會不會還會漲電價?"},{"start":3757.169,"end":3778.004,"text":"我們今年4月已經漲過11%。對,那下半年還會不會漲電價?那現在電價審議委員會每年兩次的調整時間是固定的。我想要請教院長跟部長的想法,你們支不支持下半年還漲電價?我會以民生的需求、物價的穩定,甚至能夠提供產業更多的保障。那我是請部長回答,部長應該有一些,部長是很有想法的人。部長你覺得下半年有沒有需要漲電價?"},{"start":3779.07,"end":3779.09,"text":"謝謝張委員"},{"start":3809.445,"end":3815.689,"text":"謝謝左院長。接下來我們請圖權及委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。那請我們左院長還有我們經濟部的郭部長。請左院長還有郭部長備詢。"},{"start":3848.001,"end":3873.092,"text":"委員好好,院長部長好我請問一下我們卓院長齁那針對SRF這個發電我想說院長不知道知不知道那想請問一下它到底是焚化廠還是發電廠那是一個把廢棄物固化之後到一個新型態的一個焚化廠裡面它可以做再一次的能源的使用所以是兩者兼具嘛"},{"start":3874.604,"end":3888.732,"text":"我請問一下,像我們台灣民主社會,那我們不管是設立焚化廠還是發電廠,是不是在設立之前應該要跟我們鄉親充分的溝通,讓我們鄉親能夠了解我們政府到底要做的是什麼?"},{"start":3889.192,"end":3891.213,"text":"對所以也是希望說能夠讓我們居民能夠了解我們政府"},{"start":3905.742,"end":3935.742,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":3936.443,"end":3959.782,"text":"這三家其實早在107年的時候就有含詢我們桃園市政府經發局針對這三家SRF垃圾發電廠入駐我們桃科的可行性當時的經發局就很明確告知他們是不符合圖管規定所以也告知他說我們這個桃科的入駐"},{"start":3960.794,"end":3979.138,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":3979.585,"end":3992.282,"text":"我們這三家SRF廠在4月1號我們經濟部能源署有發了我們再生能源發電設備的同意備案給台灣立方在4月1號發所以經發局發現之後就在4月29號馬上公告"},{"start":3997.469,"end":4015.249,"text":"明確的規範就是說氣電共生井線天然氣SF不在這之列所以也就是明確的告知經濟部這個入住桃科經發局認為這圖款規定是不合的那知不知道針對這部分院長跟部長知不知道這個事情"},{"start":4017.164,"end":4042.854,"text":"經濟部推薦那個時候是機關配合程序不是作為入園必要的條件所以經濟部發言與桃園市政府是表達沒有參採的必要所以收回當時對桃園市政府的政策表述這個是經濟部對桃園市政府的回應"},{"start":4043.976,"end":4044.797,"text":"桃園市政府"},{"start":4060.929,"end":4086.021,"text":"好,那我們看一下這個時間軸,讓這個院長部長了解一下。其實在剛好講107年的時候,我們三家就含詢經發局,經發局就明確告知他是不符合入園的規定。然後在108年的時候,我們當時的市長是鄭文燦市長,他就陸續核發了這三家廠商的土地建造。"},{"start":4086.661,"end":4108.169,"text":"後來中央也陸續准許這三家發給他們再生能源發電設備的同意備案。那就像我剛剛講,後來這備案發出之後經發局就緊張啊,怕說這個廠商數有走後門之魚,所以明確規範說氣電共生僅限天然氣,SRF是排除在外。"},{"start":4108.709,"end":4123.128,"text":"後來我們經濟部中央就針對這三家廠商在109年12月份開了一場專案的會議也就是說他也知道他不符合圖管的規定所以"},{"start":4124.349,"end":4149.544,"text":"當時我們經濟部長王美華就下指導期,要求我們當時的市長鄭文燦同意以專案的方式入園。那當然鄭市長也知道這個經發局都是反對,而且他不符合圖管的規定。所以就要求經濟部說,如果要讓這三家入園,請經濟部發推薦函,他才同意入園。後來很快我們經濟部就在後面針對這三家廠商發的入園的"},{"start":4152.557,"end":4170.52,"text":"推薦函那當然政事長也履行他的承諾同意這三家廠商入園那後來民眾踢爆之後然後要求廠商說明結果這三家廠商開了說明會之後民眾聽了反而更加恐慌後來才發現"},{"start":4171.341,"end":4171.361,"text":"﹚三、"},{"start":4193.959,"end":4212.157,"text":"後來也經濟部也礙於民意的壓力而且剛時也正在選舉所以我們經濟部剛剛部長有講後來也撤回了這推薦函那基於這種種以上的原因張善政市長就從善如流就撤銷了這三家廠商的入園許可"},{"start":4212.617,"end":4235.771,"text":"但是沒有想到在3月份撤銷就像剛剛郭部長講你說這個權責單位在桃園市政府就是說桃園市政府可以決定他的入園與否但是沒有想到張市長撤銷他的入園許可結果在6月份我們經濟部居然駁回桃園市的行政處分也就是同意這三家SIF廠"},{"start":4236.371,"end":4239.412,"text":"報告委員這件事情是這樣就是說臺灣市政府來向這個經濟部提這個訴願那我們是"},{"start":4257.618,"end":4272.913,"text":"由術院委員會依法律專業的決定。術院委員會有11位委員,主要是由外部的法律專家學者所組成的,包括專業的公法學者。"},{"start":4273.613,"end":4290.326,"text":"好沒關係部長重點重點就是經濟部自己經濟部部長或經濟部市長那我請問一下我們經濟部博為桃園市政府這個行政處分是基於什麼原因基於什麼理由我沒有處分"},{"start":4291.462,"end":4307.271,"text":"不是你說這三家廠商針對張善政市長桃園市政府撤銷入園許可你前面有說這是桃園市政府是權責單位他可以決定他的入園與否結果他駁回也就是撤銷這三家的入園結果我們經濟部居然"},{"start":4309.412,"end":4336.972,"text":"還駁回桃園市政府的撤銷入園許可那你剛剛說桃園市政府可以決定他決定之後你經濟部又召開又同意這三家廠商的訴願繼續讓他入住那你說他主管單位可以決定那你又駁回那到底是經濟部決定還是桃園市政府決定所以才去訴願啊所以你同意他的訴願啊訴願委員會做的決定啊那你訴願駁回桃園市政府的理由是什麼"},{"start":4338.933,"end":4364.145,"text":"就是他這個基本上他來訴願說這個是經濟部下調的這個法案的但是事實上不是這個樣子部長這個我跟你講如果說你覺得不對你可以反駁當初你們後來說其實當初我有看過這會議記錄有明確的告知當初鄭文燦市長知道經發局反對所以他說如果要統一這三家議員要經濟部黃美花部長發"},{"start":4365.425,"end":4365.806,"text":"﹚第11屆第2會期"},{"start":4382.904,"end":4407.95,"text":"經濟部推薦他說居然經濟部撤銷推薦函表示當初推薦入園的理由也不復存在而且我重申他從頭到尾就不符合他的圖館要點是你們用專案的方式那居然不符合圖館要點那你當初推薦的理由你自己推薦函已經撤銷而且民意那麼反彈所以張勝勝市長撤銷那你結果撤銷之後你們說撤銷推薦函只是"},{"start":4410.931,"end":4415.955,"text":"報告委員我想這一部分這個桃園市政府他可以決定這個三家公司三家業者他有什麼樣的條件允許他進來"},{"start":4433.171,"end":4455.468,"text":"所以他現在不同意阿,因為我剛剛一直有跟你講阿,他不符合他圖管要點阿,那是後來你們推薦,然後...議長,我再跟你講,因為我剛剛有講,後來我看過公文,你們說推薦含非必要條件,主要條件是再生能源發電設備許可。"},{"start":4457.49,"end":4460.652,"text":"我剛剛有講,桃園市政府經發局從頭到尾就說他不符合圖管要點,後來你們經濟部在109年4月1號發給"},{"start":4479.369,"end":4482.131,"text":"發給台灣立方再生能源發電設備許可後來你們說這個是必要條件但是在109年4月29日經發局當他發現之後馬上公告說你這一個許可函"},{"start":4496.423,"end":4498.423,"text":"徐可涵徐可涵徐可涵"},{"start":4526.269,"end":4549.165,"text":"報告委員我想這一部分我們現在這個桃園市政府是要求我們給他一個那什麼叫做這個入園許可我們現在是在協商這些辦法就是說這三個廠商如果按照過去的這個說法那麼當然是桃園這個市政府不同意他進來但是我們現在是朝著把這件事情如何能夠讓他能夠順利的這個完成"},{"start":4551.647,"end":4551.667,"text":"好。"},{"start":4567.751,"end":4587.414,"text":"那也感謝院長感謝部長我聽部長這樣講其實部長也是站在鄉親這一邊所以我今天也要提醒部長就是說當你說推薦還沒有法律效力可是你的必要條件其實也這個許可也不符合桃科的入園規定所以你這個必要條件在桃科入園規定"},{"start":4588.355,"end":4616.888,"text":"基本上跟逃課入園規定是相抵觸所以你的必要條件根本也不存在所以我希望經濟部撤銷這個再生能源發電設備的許可因為你的許可根本跟入住逃課的圖管規定根本是相抵觸所以希望救救觀音人救救桃園人居然民意這麼的反彈這件事情地方不管是張善政市長還是本席還有當地的議員甚至"},{"start":4617.668,"end":4635.764,"text":"新屋關英31個里長也已經連署他們說希望我們經濟部能夠撤銷這個許可把這個必要條件來消失讓我們關英喔能夠有一個更好的生活環境因為他們有講他們現在要健康不要回饋金"},{"start":4637.942,"end":4661.957,"text":"我們現在就是在討論這些這個辦法入園的辦法規範大家同意包括桃園市政府他也同意朝這個方向大家來努力因為那個三家廠商事實上已經有兩家已經都蓋好了他們也投資很多的錢而且這個是國際的這個廠商進來這一部分包括我們友好的這個國家都有在關注這個問題"},{"start":4662.937,"end":4663.298,"text":"我跟部長講齁"},{"start":4681.652,"end":4692.383,"text":"我們也是希望所有的都要按照制度來所以我們也並不是反傷所以我剛剛有說這個時間軸所以部長跟院長你們要聽一下"},{"start":4694.258,"end":4695.98,"text":"可是當時的市長是鄭文燦市長喔?"},{"start":4721.911,"end":4741.408,"text":"這個我想民主制度就是這個樣子所以我希望院長部長請你們正視這個問題因為我說我們蔡英文總統也有講當政府聽不到人民的聲音人民唯有走上街頭發出怒吼我相信我們民主進步黨一直以來都是走街頭運動"},{"start":4742.529,"end":4752.956,"text":"只要政府所做的是違反民意我相信我們的政府我們民進黨政府也是鼓勵民眾手上接頭所以在這邊希望部長跟院長能夠幫忙謝謝圖委員"},{"start":4770.554,"end":4783.542,"text":"謝謝院長跟部長。審發會委員及徐富奎委員之質詢均以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入紀錄刊登公報。下一位請賴會員委員質詢。"},{"start":4803.594,"end":4811.517,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請我們的院長跟我們的經濟部部長。好,卓院長還有部長,預備請。委員好。是。"},{"start":4819.888,"end":4844.229,"text":"院長、部長,早安。我想從民國42年開始,臺灣啟動了大規模的養豬,養豬的一個事業。那這個養豬的一個事業,其實臺糖發揮了很大的一個能量,因為在早期,臺糖的一個養豬事業,其實是帶動了我們整個臺灣的一個"},{"start":4846.39,"end":4872.198,"text":"民間的一個豬場的一個最大的一個標竿跟目標其實臺灣的一個養豬的一個事業臺糖功不可沒那曾幾何時就是說其實臺糖面臨到一個很大的一個困境從2020我們投入了107億我們要蓋那個13座的一個就是舊換新的這個規模的一個養豬場"},{"start":4874.099,"end":4891.699,"text":"那到目前為止臺壇還有三場沒有完成招標那這個三場為什麼沒有完成招標其實是在一個土地徵收的一個原因那沒有辦法順利的一個進行這裡我要跟院長跟部長做一個探討"},{"start":4893.937,"end":4907.921,"text":"改建的一個工程改建的一個工程其實在這個進度大幅的落後那甚至就是說還有還有就是三座還要再追加預算那個17億"},{"start":4909.722,"end":4930.859,"text":"我想有兩個很大的一個股票上市公司一個叫那個山林水一個叫大同他們來就是承攬我們這13座的一個養豬場可是這13座養豬場顯然顯然有很大的一個困難為什麼這個很大的困難我想就是說"},{"start":4931.98,"end":4951.035,"text":"部長你新上任所以我也在這裡提醒你就是說在整個台堂的養豬事業它面臨到一個很大的一個瓶頸那這一個瓶頸事實上有沒有人模不彰我想持續你去看很多的一個資料你可能慢慢的會去了解這些問題"},{"start":4952.476,"end":4974.239,"text":"為什麼107億再加上17億那這13座的一個養豬場我們希望他是一個就是說最新型的然後是他可以就是說節能減碳的他可以帶動了整個臺灣最好的一個養豬的一個事業那現在面臨到一個這麼大的一個困境"},{"start":4975.961,"end":5003.479,"text":"這個該怎麼辦當然我們知道說農業部長他是一個農業的一個權威他看到了就是說臺堂的養豬事業面臨到的一個議程例是平均的一個臺灣的養豬的一個議程例支向他是在支效這個讓我們會覺得說很捨不得這麼好的一個環境這麼好的一個基礎結果我們的議程例是這麼低"},{"start":5004.982,"end":5029.483,"text":"這個完全沒有競爭力,尤其就是我們的東海豐,屏東的東海豐這個是一個標竿的一個養豬場,那我們常常是提供很多的國外的一個就是考察,到了這個地方來的時候,結果我們等到漏氣,因為為什麼?東海豐他沒有母豬,他全部就是已經就是養了那個30幾天的這個宰豬,到這個豬場來。"},{"start":5033.306,"end":5033.526,"text":"﹚發言委員："},{"start":5046.203,"end":5066.271,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":5066.271,"end":5091.527,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":5091.527,"end":5104.582,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":5105.319,"end":5105.419,"text":"謝謝,請部長回應"},{"start":5135.554,"end":5150.138,"text":"報告委員我想台堂的問題就是你剛才所指教的這一部分我們會專案下去查查到底是您剛才所指正的是人的問題還是環境的問題還是這個產業的問題我們會針對問題來提出改善"},{"start":5155.799,"end":5170.405,"text":"那臺堂確實這個你剛才在講那個工程的部分因為他碰到這個從2020年開始的這個COVID-19到現在那麼特別是東海峰東海峰在屏東那是比較鄉下其實"},{"start":5171.425,"end":5171.465,"text":"主席"},{"start":5190.618,"end":5218.415,"text":"因為在107年的時候我們就是透過這些標案是在108年的時候開始疫情已經來了嘛所以缺工缺料這個問題就是造成就是這13座的這個養豬場他沒有辦法就是去改建那我想就是說臺堂內部的一個那個管理的一個失能其實不是只有豬的問題年代的我跟你講我特別指出來就是土地的一個問題"},{"start":5219.807,"end":5244.772,"text":"那台糖建價的出租這個產業違法土地廠商你現在看到了這一個這個螢幕上這一個就是我們在柳營我們的奇美奇美醫院齁那奇美醫院的旁邊有一個就是大概超過超過7666坪的土地一個月租26萬26萬這個為什麼呢"},{"start":5248.873,"end":5270.185,"text":"這個是一個非常非常離譜在本席在去年二月持續一直追這個案子的時候那臺堂一直講說這個案子沒有問題那我想在這裡跟部長跟院長做一個非常清楚在延時的企業裡頭他只有租20年那寫得非常清楚不得不得延約"},{"start":5271.266,"end":5288.824,"text":"那其實他已經違背了原始企業的一個精神這20年他只知20年不能研約結果20年的合約到齊了所有的地上物沒有追回來給臺堂甚至他讓他就是"},{"start":5290.049,"end":5311.292,"text":"總是會讓他繼續承租這一塊土地。會後我會把這些資料給部長跟院長。因為他是明顯非常明顯的一個違規。現在現在這一個地上物這個地上物還存在的。然後台糖還不是台糖的還不是台糖的財產。"},{"start":5312.54,"end":5340.525,"text":"那我一直覺得就是說為什麼有這麼大膽的臺堂的同事我前前後後跟他們開會超過5次以上那他們竟然有辦法就是說在明文企業上規定的這麼清楚了然後你延續的那個往後的20年你竟然是敢再讓他續約當然這個新奇美公司不是許文榮的這個奇美公司在這裡要跟院長報告一下"},{"start":5341.445,"end":5369.817,"text":"所以一個民間的小型的公司有辦法就是20年再加20年然後這個地上物是一個價值超過2億2億的一個建物在上面竟然沒有就是20年合約到期的時候把這個財產歸還回到臺棠那為什麼臺棠敢這樣就是侵害國家的財產權啊所以我在這裡要請部長跟那個院長是不是一個業內"},{"start":5371.078,"end":5371.098,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":5400.854,"end":5420.096,"text":"事後我都會把這些資料給部長跟院長。我想這個是存在於我們整個北台灣的一個很大的一個笑話大家不知道尤其臺堂的總公司又在臺南那這個是不應該換的一個錯所以在這裡也利用利用這一個"},{"start":5421.858,"end":5446.756,"text":"時間來跟那個部長跟院長做一個探討我想臺堂的一個人才的一個斷層經驗的一個傳承人事的一個僵硬化怎麼樣活用這個人才不讓這個員工只是等退休我在這裡頭提出了一份資料就是說這個是經濟委員會在6月26號的一個會議記錄臺堂超過55歲以上屆齡退休的員工高達33.78"},{"start":5449.922,"end":5465.131,"text":"這個是眼高於台糖、中油跟台水。這個讓我們覺得就是說,台糖的一個員工的安全下裝的這個心態,這個是非常要不得的。它曾經是一個這麼風光的一個國營事業體。"},{"start":5466.909,"end":5482.255,"text":"那在這裡特別就是說也是跟我們院長跟部長提出這個案子我覺得這個是應該要立即解約啊不然這個存在的一個很大的一個問題應該會有很多公務人員會有一些年代的一個責任"},{"start":5483.359,"end":5496.641,"text":"那接著那個請國發會那個主委跟部長特別要跟你們三位討論一下就是科技藍帶的一個中繼站我建議是在大新營這個科技"},{"start":5500.899,"end":5528.146,"text":"在整個嘉義園區跟南科園區的一個切法的一個串聯我們知道就是說南台灣的一個科技藍帶從屏東一直直接上來到嘉義其實在嘉義跟新穎這一跟南科超越了就是這個距離是超過50公里可是這一塊剛好是一個斷層所以在這裡我要特別跟那個"},{"start":5528.973,"end":5544.028,"text":"在座的三位做一個建議其實我們知道說台積電他可能後續他還有好幾座的一個封測廠他要那個投入那所有的一個封測廠他其實需要半導體的各種的一個材料"},{"start":5544.788,"end":5544.808,"text":"﹚第11會議"},{"start":5560.33,"end":5584.8,"text":"一直都沒有開花那我簡單的提兩個案子給那個院長跟部長跟那個我們主委看光是我的台子台子的工業用地我就有超過50公頃超過50公頃的台子工業用地其實我們都準備好了還有就是我們有很多台糖的工業用地他也存在的所以變成就是說"},{"start":5585.799,"end":5585.819,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":5611.596,"end":5629.036,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":5630.64,"end":5659.339,"text":"謝謝委員我們之前也到過沙倫確實一個地方經過這樣有計畫的整體開發之後未來的前景相當的可觀那現在就是在串接整個大南部高屏地區的S廊帶這個科技的走廊應該是一個我們未來發展的重點之一那尤其在台南方面新營工業區柳營還有開發中的七股都是未來深具潛力的那這個部分國發會也一定會就各個"},{"start":5660.472,"end":5666.994,"text":"主委你是不是對整個大新營就是我們的北台南有沒有一點了解我相信你應該很了解你之前就是一直都是在南台南"},{"start":5684.359,"end":5699.035,"text":"我是去過幾次那裡是一個環境還不錯的地方也有一些一些工業在發展是有比較大的空間那我們這個會找國科會一起我們共同來研究一下再跟委員回報"},{"start":5699.616,"end":5701.137,"text":"臺南是我們非常重視的一個區塊"},{"start":5734.059,"end":5752.65,"text":"好謝謝謝謝賴委員謝謝卓院長吳啟明委員之質詢已書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":5764.438,"end":5774.382,"text":"主席、在場的袁先進、列席的政府金融署長官員,大家早。那麼有請卓院長和經濟部郭部長、農業部陳部長。卓院長、陳部長還有郭部長請備選。"},{"start":5782.629,"end":5805.955,"text":"總委員好院長好兩位部長好院長昨天我們共同出席了中央通訊社一百週年的慶祝對嗎是的我很欣賞你最後結尾的那句話你說大家都慶祝中央社一百歲生日快樂你說你希望能跟他講一百次的生日快樂這意味著中央通訊社還在近一百年以上對不對"},{"start":5807.125,"end":5809.688,"text":"其實中央通訊社那天昨天我在聽到底通訊社相較於新聞業是什麼我倒覺得他很像台積電"},{"start":5830.233,"end":5852.615,"text":"他本身沒有媒體但是他透過供應給各個新聞媒體他把他的正確新聞傳播出去是不是這樣但是我也覺得未來中央通訊社的使命就像那位印度通訊社的代表說的他們發現自己的顧客變成自己的競爭者他們要開始有自己的平台但是有一件事情可以請你期許中央通訊社去做的"},{"start":5853.24,"end":5881.822,"text":"就是對於訊息新聞求真的判別。如果中共通信社能夠幫忙把每一則新聞把關,務求新聞的真,我想他對其他的他的客戶就有價值,你同意嗎?是,所以他要正確領先,客觀。好,那接下來我們進入今天的主題。大家在關心總統成立了三個委員會,其中一個是國家氣候變遷委員會,很多人都關心這跟行政院的職責會不會有衝突,您覺得呢?氣候變遷,"},{"start":5883.339,"end":5904.442,"text":"整個是一個很高戰略的國家戰略的目標跟計畫所以行政院要負責具體的解決問題的方法同時在總統府成立的委員會當中他沒有組織沒有人事沒有預算他是諮詢政策的討論所以真正的執行行政院要負責當然而且還要經過政策跟行政院還要對接政策"},{"start":5905.422,"end":5926.242,"text":"氣候變遷大家認為是工業製造造成的大氣的環境的變化那受害者是誰呢?你覺得第一個受害者是誰?我告訴你第一個受害的不是工業是農業我們陳部長這就是今年我們氣候變遷造成的全台灣農損包括屏東的芒果、蓮霧都是我請教一下這麼多的農損我來請教那個陳部長"},{"start":5930.182,"end":5956.292,"text":"面對農民很可憐啊,如果是農損欠收不付成本,我們農業部會做什麼?災害救助嘛,對不對?我們有一個天然災害救助的一個辦法。也會推廣農業保險嘛。對。但是院長,如果我們風調霧順過太平安啊,農民在擔心咧?因為風修會怎樣?會白癡啊。農產品不耐久放嘛,所以量多價崩怎麼辦?農業部,你們是不是鼓勵做加工?"},{"start":5957.383,"end":5976.994,"text":"我們除了做加工以外,我們也會建置相關的一個滾動式的一個倉儲,冷鏈倉儲的部分。讓他延長農產品豐收的保存嘛。但是院長要跟你講,農業部做這麼多,可是農民會感謝嗎?因為這些鼓勵將農產品做初級加工,讓他可以保存久一點,是誰得到補貼?加工業者。"},{"start":5978.035,"end":6001.181,"text":"但是加工業者檸檬做成果汁之後可以放得比較久,但是農民也擔心啊,你補助都補助加工中,他們就多靠進口、多吃,藍在這本土的檸檬汁裡面,消費者分沒,很可惜啦。所以我覺得部長、院長你可以再請農業部考慮一個,他們在做的是什麼?除了鼓勵加工之外,就是冷鏈,是不是這樣?是。好,部長,那你們做了多少?"},{"start":6002.912,"end":6017.626,"text":"您們目前農業部在冷鏈的推動中做了哪些?我們現在在冷鏈部分大概分三個區塊,一個區塊是區域冷鏈物流中心,它是結合附近的。第二個就是一個旗艦的部分,那旗艦的部分主要是以外銷為導向的。是的,說得好。來,院長你聽喔。"},{"start":6018.567,"end":6033.893,"text":"你看這個圖阿,其實農產地到集貨廠,大概的農會跟生產班在前端,後端外交的有外交的貿易商,有果菜公司,那目前中間的大型通路跟盤商,盤商大概有自己資源的冷鏈。"},{"start":6034.733,"end":6050.582,"text":"那我們目前政府投資的大概可以讓大型的通貨商做外銷放在機場附近部長是不是這樣?對好但是這樣的一個投資受益者是後端農民的價格在前端因為他還沒有經過冷鏈不耐久存他的價格還是抬不起來"},{"start":6051.28,"end":6069.814,"text":"所以這是一個目前我們能量投資在方向上要思考的一個地點。同時另外事情很像在你旁邊的郭部長我跟郭部長請教一下我看到報紙說未來好像今年開始屋頂型的光電的貢獻慢慢已經接近甚至超越了地面型光電是不是這樣?"},{"start":6070.479,"end":6095.031,"text":"目前的資料是這樣嗎?是的,所以屋頂光電有什麼好處呢?院長,屋頂光電因為人口密集區,它用的電馬上可以上吊,它不用再匱限。但是地面型的光電大部分在鄉間嘛,部長是不是這樣?是的。所以配合鄉間的光電用量少的地區,這些發的電要怎麼辦?是不是要用儲能儲起來?沒錯。這樣用儲能,光電要配合儲能才會產生韌性電網調節供電的效果。但這裡面有一個問題,匱限。"},{"start":6099.602,"end":6123.448,"text":"我們廣大鄉間的光電需要匯線放在儲能,儲能才能輸送到電網,是不是這樣子?好,那我們來看一下。目前部長先你告訴院長,目前這個儲能設施的裝置容量是不是已經跟我們的光電裝置差不多了?目前差不多。差不多,但是大部分分布在哪裡?分布在光電集中的鄉間嗎?還是集中在比較工業集中的地帶?"},{"start":6126.172,"end":6153.413,"text":"委員長,這是問題了。產電的在鄉間,儲能的放在哪裡?工業用電那裡。你現在看看為什麼會這樣子?因為經濟部的相關的規定,產業園區的各種使用規範,科技園區的管制條例,光電的儲能要放在工業區。部長是不是這樣子?目前的規範是這樣。鄉間有沒有工業用地?很少。很少。郭部長來自於我們枋寮。枋寮唯一的工業區在北起北,在東海那裡。"},{"start":6157.239,"end":6168.324,"text":"請問有地方可以放儲能?所以在這裡給院長跟部長一個建議其實如果儲能結合了充電跟冷鏈其實在我們鄉間最怕停電的兩個"},{"start":6169.853,"end":6173.676,"text":"這是一個很好的思考跟檢討的方向很好,所以怎麼辦?解答在你右手邊那一位,農業部"},{"start":6188.469,"end":6213.408,"text":"請部長告訴一下我們農業部,如果說儲能業者可以同時提供冷鏈,那麼農業部把他認定為農業設施,這個儲能就會放在農業用地上,放在集貨廠上,因為我們為什麼冷鏈不會在前端呢?因為集貨廠都是農會跟小農,都是生產班,沒有資本,他們也沒有辦法投資,靠你的補助沒錢輸。"},{"start":6214.383,"end":6236.888,"text":"如果除能業者願意因為可以取得用地投資到我們生產班集貨廠那邊,這樣是不是解決兩邊的問題?謝謝委員,我想這一部分我跟農業部來討論,到實際回屏東去看一下。如果說有辦法的話,我們就依這個委員所提議的部分這個方向來努力。"},{"start":6237.318,"end":6255.374,"text":"院長請你指示農業部是不是研議把儲能結合能量後可以納入農業設施部長可不可以我想絕對可以我們現在已經一部分已經開始這樣做了特別是有一些像孤設有沒有那上面屋頂試探那是屋頂光電對但是他直接會供應他本身的一個用地但是要儲能對"},{"start":6256.275,"end":6284.082,"text":"所以相對的有關於農業設施現在大概有將近兩千多兩千四百多公頃的一個屋頂型那是屋頂型的然後我們會結合在鄉村會結合儲能設備然後直接供給我們的農業用電大部分的地面型光電不是在鄉下不是屋頂型啦是地面型啦如果能把這些地面型的光電放到集貨廠提供冷鏈也兼做儲能對農民幫助很大院長願不願意支持請兩位部長共同言語好不好"},{"start":6285.062,"end":6312.088,"text":"我請兩位部長積極來看如何幫助這些產生出來的電力能夠存留下來工作有需要使用那農地的使用是不是有必要做一些放寬或是怎麼樣這個請農業部再來質詢部長可以考慮嗎?可以我們會來研議那郭部長你也可以鼓勵儲能業者去投資在我們鄉間的這些冷鏈的集貨廠的農會生產班的儲能設施剩下剩下你對台電的儲能你就可以賺錢啊冷鏈這做服務的可以嗎?"},{"start":6315.831,"end":6333.348,"text":"另外我們看到,請問院長你知道嗎?我們每個地方都說要歡迎台積電,但是台積電要用電,要不要用水?要。要用水。所以我們半導體的產業,我們怎樣?我們不只怕缺電,也要怕缺水。但是有沒有雨水,我們沒辦法決定。"},{"start":6334.389,"end":6360.834,"text":"所以如果雨量少,家庭怕缺水,農民擔心沒有辦法灌溉,工廠是不是怕停產,是不是這樣子?是。那你認為目前我們台灣的降水、降雨哪個部門,工業部門、家庭部門跟農業部門哪邊用最多?農業用水佔了七成,民生用水佔了兩成,其實工業只佔了一成。"},{"start":6361.823,"end":6381.091,"text":"所以如果說我們要提高,當提供要花這麼多水的時候,七成的農業放棄,兩成的家庭要營,一成是工業。你要在哪裡把這個水蓋起來營,你覺得哪個地方投資效益最高?部長,如果你是企業家,用水分配是這樣,你的投資在哪裡?最後會有達到那個成長的效果,邊際效益最高?"},{"start":6381.621,"end":6401.031,"text":"我們現在當然是從這個農業用水的部分。你們是調度喔,叫停耕、修耕,把水拿過來。對,不是這樣子,就是說我們其實在那個農地這個水啊,這個這一部分我們在加強。我們在台水,水利署大概有做這方面的研究。水利署是全部的水資源的調度。"},{"start":6402.057,"end":6421.229,"text":"農業部陳部長,你們看一看,你們農業有七成,其實呢是很多的量,但是多數不是農民用掉的,因為你們上游的集水設施不足,你們中游的輸水的管路老舊,到最後你們最末端的使用效能,噴澆啦、噴水啦、節水設施要加強,農業部有沒有在積極投資這一塊?"},{"start":6422.09,"end":6422.43,"text":"主委委員長我來自農業縣"},{"start":6450.748,"end":6465.864,"text":"你知道嗎?過去這三四十年日治時代留下來的灌牌,其實農民已經不太用了。為什麼嗎?你怎麼知道?為什麼農民不去我們水里回來灌牌?因為現在電很方便啦!他每次要水,他拆這個,他摘木頭,有電就出了啦!"},{"start":6469.158,"end":6469.718,"text":"是,很好。"},{"start":6496.325,"end":6512.154,"text":"好,所以呢我們看一看,所以投資在哪裡呢?投資在我們的灌牌,然後呢蓄水設施,這樣的方式也就是透過交通設施。我們交通部今天不在,其實交通部呢生活圈道路計畫提供了很多的經費,如果這些經費在道路上,"},{"start":6512.614,"end":6517.276,"text":"謝謝委員這個意見但是我要提醒你我們看一下真正我們的慣排做了多少"},{"start":6541.121,"end":6568.815,"text":"部長,陳部長,這是不是你113年度有關農田水電師改善所投資的錢?我想整個投資不只這樣,因為我們還有一些易後的特別預算在投入。所以平均整個農田水...好,易後的特別預算,前瞻,包括前瞻都已經快結束了啦。院長我要提醒你,農業用水,用這麼多水,你家裡這麼多錢,很可惜的啦。我再請你看,往下看。除了農業用水之外,我們自來水,你認為全台灣自來水普及率大概多少?"},{"start":6569.65,"end":6591.466,"text":"部長要不要告訴院長,全台灣自來水普及率?92啦,60幾是屏東啦。你是屏東人啦,屏東69%啦,全國邊郡94%啦。我們在自來水未普及地區我們投入多少金額你知道嗎?我們投入這些啦,111年投入20億,越來越少。"},{"start":6592.126,"end":6613.525,"text":"當然隨著普及率提高,我們經費需要的是較少。但是最大的問題出在哪裡嗎?為什麼我們主要在屏東這個地方跟南島普及率還不夠?因為水公司的執行能量有限。您要改變啦。院長,可不可以指示經濟部加強水公司在自來水普及的計畫的投入,人力跟經費,可以嗎?"},{"start":6614.245,"end":6616.926,"text":"所以部長、院長支持一下讓經濟部加強這方面無自來水地區普及的經費跟人力好不好?"},{"start":6643.124,"end":6663.864,"text":"這個在總經費160億當中我們就逐年有做分配阿那希望多增加臨落啦長治等地區今年應該會實質的改善是的沒錯臨落跟長治你講到重點了最後呢我看一下齁其實你看看我們工業用水齁投資多少海蛋廠部長你告訴院長我們一個海蛋廠要花多少錢海水蛋化廠工業用的"},{"start":6665.675,"end":6688.624,"text":"數十億起跳嘛,用10億做單位嘛。院長你看到沒有,工業用水海灘廠這個絕對不予匱乏的我們投資上百億,但是農業部門的灌牌,水公司水的自來水的沿館的普及需要再加強,所以我的結論就兩個,請提高,院長指示提高自來水沿館工程預算及提高施作效能,可以嗎?好的,已介紹計畫。"},{"start":6701.016,"end":6701.317,"text":"政委員好"},{"start":6729.81,"end":6744.478,"text":"院長好,因為這是經濟組的詢答,我想說先問一下,因為最近AI實在太熱了。我想說你覺得全台灣最適合設立AI生態園區的地方在哪裡?沒有其中之一,最適合的地方。"},{"start":6751.247,"end":6770.247,"text":"感謝 感謝 感謝院長 確實 因為 因為 因為我來自新竹 那所以我們肯定會新竹來發聲 那我也在那個用了那CHILD GPT生成室的AI我來問一下 他確實也給出了一個很具體的答案 他覺得全台灣最適合的地方就在新竹市"},{"start":6771.168,"end":6788.245,"text":"包括了IC設計園區,他也覺得全台灣最適合的地方都在新竹市。這也是坦白說這幾十年來新竹竹科發展之後一個很好的成果。坦白說我們知道賴政府這邊其實也準備要推桃竹苗大細股計畫。"},{"start":6790.047,"end":6791.368,"text":"新竹市 都市計畫區域"},{"start":6810.807,"end":6839.142,"text":"那有沒有辦法讓竹克S127變成我們配合同時的大新武計畫一個國家重大建設,院長。我認為國客會已經很密集的在研究各種方案以及跟新竹市乃至於新竹縣政府共同的研究商討當中。那希望這個時程能夠配合大家的需求以及未來迎接這個科技大廠進來或是國內的廠商使用的速度來做進行調整。"},{"start":6840.34,"end":6858.461,"text":"謝謝院長,因為你一開始講說你也覺得在新竹是很適合做AI生態園區的時候,所以我一定要對你非常的溫和,而且全力支持你繼續推動新竹成立AI生態園區。可是因為現在全世界很多大廠都想要進駐台灣來,"},{"start":6861.004,"end":6861.144,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":6881.184,"end":6906.365,"text":"的算力它變成了一個服務業而不再只是製造業所以我們事實上對這個部分肯定是支持的可是當我們在看到很多大廠想要到臺灣來的時候呢我們就不得不去考慮用電到底夠不夠那說實話就是郭部長其實當被點名接任部長的時候呢那我跟他對話"},{"start":6908.507,"end":6928.038,"text":"他當時對於臺灣的核能政策保持一個相對開放的一個政策,就像我們看到了童子賢我們的環境變遷委員會的副主委,副召集的這樣一個角色的時候,我發現他們對於能源的看法其實是比較開放的,可是後來坦白說,國務長後來被"},{"start":6930.74,"end":6949.908,"text":"民進黨的委員後來可能也再一次溝通之後我發現他的說法有一點丟回去可是我覺得重點就是怎麼樣讓台灣不缺電我覺得這是最大的一個前提那我想說在這邊再一次的問一下卓院長台灣在未來10年會不會缺電"},{"start":6951.893,"end":6955.096,"text":"至少你確保2030年之前不缺電對不對?因為坦白說因為整個國際也都非常關注臺灣到底缺不缺電甚至於說"},{"start":6978.254,"end":6997.386,"text":"黃宇勳在離開臺灣之前那個臺北電腦展的時候他也表示用電確實是他關心的議題那我知道就是部長剛到美國去也去拜訪了很多相關的一個高企業公司也希望他們到臺灣來可是我相信電也是他們考慮的一個點那我們看到一個狀態就是整個外媒對於臺灣用電其實"},{"start":7000.683,"end":7019.668,"text":"除了論題,其實是完全不手軟的,完全不手軟。我們看到一下就是從2023年7月華爾街日報就表示97%的電來自於國外會產生重大國安風險。今年4月彭博就直接表示說臺灣靠本土風電,臺灣會要有停電的心理準備。"},{"start":7022.049,"end":7045.547,"text":"韓國也想發展AI,但擔心能源問題,直接表示不要重蹈台灣的覆轍。美國智庫也直接表示台積電到熊本設廠是因為台灣電力不足。包括日本經濟新聞也直接點名賴清德總統要重新評估核電的政策。"},{"start":7046.348,"end":7064.299,"text":"等等那麼最新的美國的新聞週刊也直接表示能源是臺灣國家安全的致命弱點這些部分就表示國際很關心臺灣那我們臺灣一定更關心臺灣用電的一個情況那我在想說這麼多大廠進來的時候我們剛點到這麼多大廠要進到臺灣來說我們用電到2030還是會"},{"start":7071.824,"end":7100.247,"text":"足夠嗎?因為我看了高盛最近的一個報告他說當美國普遍在設立AI算力中心普遍使用AI之後美國的用電很可能會成長兩倍很可能會成長兩倍那在這樣的一個情況之下的時候甚至於說有很多像我們AI啊Amazon他們甚至於都在自籌核能發電或者是併購核電相關的問題所以我想要再次問"},{"start":7101.408,"end":7106.81,"text":"在這麼多國際大廠要到臺灣來的時候我們電還是夠嗎?"},{"start":7106.81,"end":7126.599,"text":"院長報告委員我想就這一部分2030年為止我們是有把握提供穩定的這個電給這些大廠那我這一次在美國我也跟很多的這些大廠交換過意見確實他們如委員所指教的他們對電是非常的這個重視"},{"start":7128.48,"end":7149.118,"text":"我們目前來看我們算我們現有的這個電力容量跟我們要下載的這些出來以後到2030年我們其實是增加的我們有增加200多MW但我要跟委員報告就是我們參考的新加坡的資料新加坡也是一樣他們從現在2024年到2030年他們會增加1.4G用在這個"},{"start":7154.002,"end":7168.178,"text":"OK,部長,這個部分我想我之前有跟你對話過,我大概理解。不過我這邊要特別提到,因為童子賢,因為我認為你跟童子賢都是業界非常優秀的企業人士,我覺得很務實在看電力的問題。"},{"start":7169.159,"end":7191.625,"text":"那童子賢他也直接提到就是非核家園讓臺灣的能源政策陷入四個困境成本變高、韌性變差、空污變多甚至會造成很大的一個環境污染的一個問題他認為說我們如果能源政策持續這樣的狀態很可能會阻礙到整個臺灣未來的一個發展我相信他講這部分是良心的一個說法"},{"start":7192.125,"end":7215.293,"text":"那我也掉了一個情況,我們看到整個現在我們在講用電夠的問題的時候,不只是夠,它還有用電性質的問題,所以再生能源發展本席是支持的,可是我要特別提到低碳能源,低碳的電也是重要的,我們看到目前112年底的時候,整個臺灣"},{"start":7217.313,"end":7237.304,"text":"低碳能源占比只有16.9在全球排名非常的後面111名非常的後面比很多新興的開發中國家都還要低那我再調了一下到今年5月份的時候我稍微提高一點點到了18.1非碳能源的部分到18.1"},{"start":7238.945,"end":7260.521,"text":"那這裡面呢我要特別提到一個狀態是太陽光電跟核能的部分因為現在撇除核能之外最大的一個再生能源就是光電的一個部分所以我相信光電肯定還是我們現在政府要力推的一個再生能源的方向應該是這樣子吧"},{"start":7262.237,"end":7278.307,"text":"是的,大概到預定2025年的年底,我們希望在這部分能夠來到20%,不過因為過去COVID-19關係...到20%是整個再生能源到20%還是光電要到20%?"},{"start":7279.548,"end":7305.32,"text":"光電光電要到20%但是現在因為在過去這個兩三年因為這個COVID的關係所以我們有一部分這個delay所以我們可能要再延一年到2026年才有辦法達到20%OK部長這個部分你之後再來跟我溝通因為光電本身要到2020要到20%幾乎是完全不可能的我剛剛委員報告光在20%當中光電應該是佔到8.4%"},{"start":7307.981,"end":7308.321,"text":"光電的部分我們來看一下"},{"start":7335.342,"end":7349.527,"text":"在整個發言業的申請、設置、審查及作業流程籌設還有擴建審查流程圖看一下這個部分給院長看一下這個流程圖請問院長往後來這個地方這個流程圖院長"},{"start":7359.998,"end":7385.3,"text":"這是很具體的一個公文書請問院長他第6項特別提到的應備文件第6點養殖戶同意證明文件在有簽署土地上面要籌設餘電共生因為餘電共生是光電裡面很重要的一環那麼我想要問一下這個養殖戶同意證明文件應該要由誰來簽署"},{"start":7389.468,"end":7412.026,"text":"報告委員這個養殖為本綠能加值這個是整個的基本的原則跟精神所以應該是以一方面從讓養殖業能夠有生產增加綠能也增加這個農村漁村的這個發展才對而且沒有問題就是院長這個漁電共生社政策我們也支持因為對再生能源的提高我們都支持我要問的狀態其實說因為我們在一開始"},{"start":7415.649,"end":7435.613,"text":"就是在重設的時候就要求就是發電業者他們必須要取得這個養殖戶的同意證明文件就表示他們一開始這些費用就要先出去那出去之後因為我們重設電機有三個階段"},{"start":7438.354,"end":7450.555,"text":"一開始籌設之後呢那麼到最後的一個施工許可到最後一個地的一個發電執照下來三個階段的時候那是不是要在第一階段就要取得就是養殖戶的"},{"start":7452.059,"end":7453.56,"text":"我看到部長一直在點頭,部長你要不要回答一下?"},{"start":7474.355,"end":7495.546,"text":"我相當同意委員你的指教。這一部分因為實際業者他們在比較擔心的是這個樣子,就是可能養不是那麼順利,所以發電可能就沒有辦法達到當初預期的目的。不過這一部分我想我們會再跟農業部再來討論,怎麼樣放寬這一些讓業者能夠順利的把電發出來。"},{"start":7503.223,"end":7526.858,"text":"OK,我跟委員補充說明一下,就是現在目前光電業者跟地主,地主如果說把這個地承租給另外人養殖的話,那就是三方。那這個三方的部分我們其實跟經濟部那時候有研擬一個共同的一個合約的一個範本。以確保光電業者跟地主跟養殖的業者,養殖戶本身,"},{"start":7528.799,"end":7551.794,"text":"OK 這沒問題陳部長謝謝你主動站上來因為這個事情確實跟農業部、經濟部、能源署還有國產署都有關因為目前有很多的漁電共生的狀態都是來自於國產署的土地我們再往下看這是能源署發出來的一個文件他直接表示就是"},{"start":7554.648,"end":7559.755,"text":"發言的業者他們必須要取得承租戶的同意書還有實際養殖戶的同意書"},{"start":7567.298,"end":7594.405,"text":"部長您可以說明一下什麼叫做成豬戶的同意書跟實際養殖戶的同意書我想這個部分就是我剛才說的就是有些土地他本身地主並沒有經營他是委託人家經營來因為這個國產署的土地喔國產署的土地按照國產署土地使用的方式他是不能夠任意轉租轉讓所以說為什麼會有一個成豬戶跟實際"},{"start":7598.935,"end":7613.686,"text":"我希望陳部長這邊要協助經濟部、能源署、國產署這邊把這個問題解決好不好因為否則我們會碰到了當我們需要很多再生能源、光電是主力的時候可是發現"},{"start":7615.447,"end":7629.537,"text":"我們相關的部門橫向的連結完全是不夠的所以當他們這個產業在推動的時候完全沒有辦法滿足能源署的要求我希望院長這邊能夠找我們經濟部然後財政部、國產署還有我們農業部一起來解決這個問題"},{"start":7652.35,"end":7656.716,"text":"謝謝政委員。謝謝卓院長。下一位請謝龍介委員質詢。"},{"start":7694.763,"end":7706.127,"text":"主席,我請國務部長。請國務部長。國務部長。議長你不用啦。這幾人齁,要坐在後面就好。委員好。國務部長你好。你好。你辛苦。好。出國幾日?八天。"},{"start":7724.059,"end":7737.73,"text":"北京喔,辛苦。我請問你,大總統聘請你的時候,剛好跟你講婦人發展不能講。沒這樣講。你沒這樣講嘛齁。你也是一個企業,我們南部的那個勇氣,勇敢面對台灣現在靈魂破局的困境。"},{"start":7754.485,"end":7765.449,"text":"這個困境是大家都理解。如果用意識形態貫注在這個困境裡面,變成理我就都沒辦法理性在這個國會電檔來探討。所以大家開始對行政院長抓到你們這個團隊來的時候,我從來不問啊。這不一樣啦。這DNA跟民進黨的那個"},{"start":7782.12,"end":7788.005,"text":"議席不講,這臺灣有救嗎?那個數不低,你回去吃一頓飯,你總要輸送去給改造的,你才會掛件名啊,有這麼大的魔力咧?我推你做不敢啦。我也是做過企業啊。"},{"start":7807.401,"end":7811.363,"text":"如果一個企業跟別人就無法相識面對他自己的人生﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖"},{"start":7838.951,"end":7843.193,"text":"這樣就讓我把一個倒硬帳撥起來,等下再倒硬,在那裡遞湯。跳過人過。我這樣來有用看用,沒有用自己想了。大到八成、小到十成,我現在跟你講,倒硬帳在四天前,他還是選擇一個經濟發展委員會,你人又沒有在國內,好,我是替你打保不平,所以我今天不請你起來。"},{"start":7869.672,"end":7877.715,"text":"謝謝委員,這個部分我相信所有的諮詢委員的意思就是平心共識。沒關係,我了解啦,有危困,你也不方便在這裡說。我聽說在這個國會的中間,大概已經40天,你是做一天把兌現標示你對這個進步。"},{"start":7900.3,"end":7912.487,"text":"有冠琴的想法,你怎麼表達?我相信我們這個團隊都是組織,我隨時都可以跟議長報告,隨時可以得到議長的支持。你當時因為人家跟我說的嘛,我認為說受到威脅,你應該勇敢來面對啦。你應該就是說用你的專業,用到你對台灣現在陷入這個困境,"},{"start":7926.889,"end":7941.797,"text":"大家都要來 我想說你去到美國還要說很多話 臺灣人很奇怪 要吃電 不用發電 要喝水 不用去水庫 我跟你講 不是臺灣人奇怪 是民進黨奇怪 我們都做不失的面對這個問題啊 所以對著你表達這個冠情就對了 我是感動深受 我可以理解"},{"start":7956.65,"end":7976.423,"text":"大家再多多看一看,你之前有表達我們這個內閣很快就崩了,因為我已經跟議長說過了,老總統的性我太了解了,他這個人就是什麼,爹、嫁、四、胖、嫁、胖嘛,把你騙下來還不夠讓你大力去做事情,也給你對他有一個誤判。我不知道我這樣跟你說,你內心要退回啦,他希望你就是替他去突破這個新珠牌,"},{"start":7987.259,"end":8000.746,"text":"結果你大家開始不錯喔!他對你的風評也不錯喔!這個部長沒顧及我用他的課金!結果你一個突破沒弄的!跟郭建明吃一頓飯就要救他!這就表示你不瞭解辣兄弟了!其實他聘請你來做部長就是希望你去突破!那你可以動外顧,那是基礎啊!"},{"start":8013.902,"end":8039.693,"text":"你去突破讓他有空間來調整整個國家的臨環政策,這樣你對台灣提出貢獻,這是你最大的功能。如果你如果是回到那個恢復靈的新珠牌裡面,這樣這個部長他就不需要你了嘛,對不對?他就親自叫民進黨,這樣完美化繼續做就好了,所以要贏你的精髓在這裡。"},{"start":8041.305,"end":8057.395,"text":"你沒去提回到,所以才造成這一個月以來的矛盾。保證你看看,你不用聽到,我知道你為難啊。啊你也不...政治倫理你也不便在這裏表達這個啦。有要繼續拚嗎?我們現在說負0.3兆嘛,7月9日。不過他剛才在跟人家說,啊你發生什麼事,我違法行政。我也知道,你也違法行政。我也違法行政。你沒一個態度。"},{"start":8070.651,"end":8091.784,"text":"經濟部願意針對這個法提出你的版本嗎?經濟部如果我們團圓如果我們同歸這個...不用團圓同歸,我們在修法,你有要收聽?我跟你說,你不能都靠我啦!你拿我的棍頭不去做事,對不對?我是沒差的,我敢跟你收聽的,但是你敢讓我聽嗎?謝謝,我相信應該可以讓你聽啦。"},{"start":8096.707,"end":8107.61,"text":"你給我停就對了!所以你為這樣說就算了嘛對不對?是啊!所以這婚姻部結束了台灣人要死嘛!說要派天還要發生什麼?我告訴你以前我們騎摩托車是吃離陷阱的,你看我差不多變那個肥啦!離陷阱的你有沒有騎過?我們南部對不對?離陷阱的?對!你還要知道離陷阱!"},{"start":8128.553,"end":8128.793,"text":"來,主委院長請備選"},{"start":8156.002,"end":8161.166,"text":"市長你辛苦了,但是要謹記,一定會聽你的啦。謝謝。議長,這就是世界第一名,國家第21、20、23年,逆行比賽第一名的冠軍啦。這就是全世界大家看得很恐怖,在我們台南落架。"},{"start":8185.964,"end":8208.195,"text":"太陽能發電的過程究竟我一直跟你們說,你們都跟我說有辦法。因為不是不能發電太陽能,我們南北南無人擺脫太陽能發電你聽到沒有?是。台南第一名,屏東現在第二名要走,要走過我們台南了。你這次不知道有回去旁邊看一個沒有啊。衝到農民是要哭無幕賽啦。"},{"start":8214.425,"end":8227.828,"text":"我告訴你這個告言在哪裡?他就是因為我們國家委員會發言,沒辦法立法,我們在發言我們要用政策來支持,對不對?這合理啊!可是他利用我們政策,模糊的空間,讓你有順便空,我告訴你,農地買賣賣水你知道嗎?"},{"start":8242.608,"end":8250.074,"text":"他用農地買賣,然後用假的實機定期,就是說我給你買2億,我定期6億,給各農民的,他是免稅的。我們不免稅就有這個定期6億叫這個實機定期,他實在負2億而已,啊如果我公告這裡發不報告,不再調查,叫他爆起來。"},{"start":8270.282,"end":8273.483,"text":"如果要銀行做多少,可以做4億美金。像韓文的就對了,可以做4億美金。我們的銀行是專業配合,為什麼銀行要做4億美金?銀行沒有了,因為他說未來20年發展的收入可以推行。所以銀行沒有風險,再來他的設備,銀行一樣可以貸款。我們的機緣就先在我們公司、我們的國家。"},{"start":8299.333,"end":8322.78,"text":"每兩天他就先給兩天給我回覆!你對阿!你跟我說,我跟你說的是過去的局局到你到英台的內閣,完全沒有關閉!這我也跟你回覆啦!但是你如果沒查就變成保庇!你就有關閉!會查!會查!簽訂會查!會查!你這個查不是為了我吃兩次的查!當然不是!為台灣人!是!"},{"start":8328.407,"end":8333.749,"text":"為臨後,我告訴你,我們現在要對10%、85%到15%、發展到30%未來啦!因為你,如果婚姻,可以重複,這是好事,我們是要動!"},{"start":8344.714,"end":8355.24,"text":"你若這個太陽能發電若沒有下升到25%以上,我會說你現在在說的20%沒有,甚至沒有30%以上,未來跟這個世界的脫費、脫款,我告訴你,這企業沒有幾個賺得到的。我再重新告訴你,過去的八年,脫款的事情,"},{"start":8372.523,"end":8378.645,"text":"很不敢,政府抗爭,選舉選出來,什麼都沒來中,什麼都沒來中,尤其歐盟,最近美國這個系統,大家想我講一大堆,你也知道,過的。九年八月,在台灣有升入託還教育中心,"},{"start":8400.862,"end":8429.998,"text":"那實在講,那摩斯暗脈啊,很難看,很漏氣啊,我有教育沒有啊。啊你說要打擊五金,聖地兄說要打擊五金啊。你知不知道我們的打擊教育中心深在哪裡?打擊的社會,我們現在要建立一個改組。打擊的教育中心啊,教育所啦。你不知道我們台灣有打擊教育所?就這麼講的那個公林,都..."},{"start":8430.731,"end":8453.456,"text":"我們有勝任的,我們九年八月國高有勝任的。沒有公認,我知道。沒有公認,沒有公認基礎,那勝任在哪裡我告訴你。這個雷震、雷雷感的慶富案你知道嗎?你聽到沒有?你知道嗎?把我們掏空兩百多個。這個高野宿竟然去勝任在慶富大樓的二樓。現在為什麼民進黨欠他很多錢?還是台灣人欠他很多錢?"},{"start":8461.001,"end":8462.102,"text":"臨時訪問委員：完整會議"},{"start":8482.042,"end":8491.29,"text":"租金安裝裝修復安裝,那讓檢察官去查啦,那跟你沒關係啦。我跟你說的就是這樣嘛。我調查一下給委員報告。水安有國家隊,雞蛋有國家隊。我可以有國家隊,我感覺你心裡還要有心脾氣的手段嘛。你知道現在國大變異,這輸贏都不夠嘛。"},{"start":8510.805,"end":8525.295,"text":"為什麼你會把這個輸掉換下來?你換下來是正確的。你沒換下來,我跟你說,我泡沫就把你開下去了。我完全尊重法務部他們的臨時的考慮啦,我支持。因為怎麼樣?這輸液,可以成立國家隊嗎?你把一間人本來在生產,不管這間公司對不對,他就違規你給他出發嘛。出發變不成生產嘛。他的三年那天大。"},{"start":8541.343,"end":8542.744,"text":"你現在還開三、四倍錢去外面靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜靜"},{"start":8569.724,"end":8589.612,"text":"這次會獲勝算：在國家的監控之下：可以這麼大策略嗎?我們最近剛才還在想要加強到這個公司進行協調：要怎麼來改善：不用協調啦：你用堂堂：你用堂堂：你用堂堂：沒影響到我們公司企業原本的寬約之下：用堂堂的大策略去執行：改革聯名之急：這才是做事情的態度啦：你懂嗎?還有齁"},{"start":8598.618,"end":8598.638,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員"},{"start":8628.425,"end":8636.209,"text":"謝謝卓院長報告院會經濟組織質詢已詢答完畢,休息10分鐘,休息之後進行財政組織質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":9280.475,"end":9307.28,"text":"報告院會現在繼續開會進行財政組織質詢。請謝委員依奉質詢。謝謝主席。我想要請卓院長跟財政部莊部長。"},{"start":9308.506,"end":9311.387,"text":"來左院長還有財政部長請備詢請問我們莊部長今年我們的稅會不會超收跟委員報告今年大概到5月底為止我們的稅收的狀況"},{"start":9332.649,"end":9343.859,"text":"其實還不錯應該達成今年度的預算目標是沒有問題但是呢可以超過多少目前還不確定因為要等9月的營所稅暫繳稅款確定後才明朗"},{"start":9344.266,"end":9354.954,"text":"但是預算是我們初步估計是可以達成根據你們統計資料1到5月的你們的時針數是1兆3263億按照你們財政部的分配預算數是1兆1784億"},{"start":9365.581,"end":9390.402,"text":"所以1到5月為止你們超收的是1479億對不對跟委員報告您說的依照3263億這個實收數是全國數這個全國數是包含地方稅以及有的進入到特別特種基金的那中央的實收數是8981億我說的是你不用分這個就是全國嘛是全國數對"},{"start":9391.323,"end":9391.923,"text":"目前來說達成數全年預算數是41%"},{"start":9411.929,"end":9432.759,"text":"是不是那是不是已經那是您提的是分配數嗎對比分配數多了1479億是不是對沒必要沒必要我們沒有必要在這裡左右啊是不是是哈但不全都是中央的那我問你對主要的達成預算分配數的"},{"start":9435.26,"end":9456.426,"text":"主要的大部分是政交稅因為今年的股市因為它在我們在實際在估的時候是一天的日均量是3563億但是到5月底為止大概平均數日均量是4800億所以日均量高的話政交稅收取的就比較高"},{"start":9456.966,"end":9468.896,"text":"那另外是中所稅也是因為利息所得還有一些股利所得分配的多所以中所稅也收的比原來營業稅裡面的金融業營業稅我看你們已經達成了170"},{"start":9477.904,"end":9479.445,"text":"金管會已經報你們了,是不是他希望"},{"start":9498.001,"end":9517.651,"text":"就是我們的當沖交易稅可以減免繼續減免你們的態度是如何有關當沖降稅這個部分依照目前的規定是到今年年底落日那是不是要繼續實施以及這樣做調整這個部分我們跟金管會還持續在相關的資料在會診討論當中"},{"start":9519.721,"end":9542.411,"text":"主委,你是不是有送財政部?是,我們今年年初已經把我們的意見送給財政部了。你們希望降稅,那為什麼財政部不給降?沒有,不是不給降,是對於資料送來,我們希望再進一步收集更多的資料。那對於金融業的營業稅是否有調降?或者是維持原狀?"},{"start":9544.327,"end":9563.133,"text":"經管會你們目前的態度是如何?我們對金融營業稅的那個態度我們也已經跟那個財政部已經報告過了。那我們主要是認為說因為主要是金融業的特性我們認為說未來呢就原來提撥的部分我們繼續保留但是未來希望那個稅率能夠調降"},{"start":9564.033,"end":9591.941,"text":"那至於稅率調降多少是由財政部的選擇。稅率調降財政部你同意同意。跟委員報告最主要您會關心到金融一頁稅最主要是金融一頁稅有部分原來是有部分要進入到金融業特別準備金那這個進入特別準備金的部分也落日了在今年年底落日所以主委剛剛也說對金融特別準備金已經提撥在裡面的希望保留在還是保留在這個準備金裡面來適應這個未來金融業需求"},{"start":9592.461,"end":9618.192,"text":"那至於未來的稅率是怎麼樣這個部分我們也會跟金管會討論對金融業是怎麼樣的有幫助能夠提升國際的競爭力等等我們會再做一個進一步的討論可是我看金融營業稅是提前達標代表我們金融業的那個就是說營收是非常好的是不是因為利息高嘛又有升息嘛所以金融業稅也有增加"},{"start":9618.752,"end":9634.752,"text":"所以這個部分還是要考量是不是?當然我們這個部分會一起考量,不是只有這個稅的…那按照你們整體的稅收模型,今年度預估達成喔,除了達成預算數以外,超收的這個機率是如何?"},{"start":9635.458,"end":9641.6,"text":"我知道可是你們畢竟要有預估嘛是不是預估的話我們初步大概是現在還很難講我覺得應該還是要到下半年才能夠更明朗我覺得這個時候說也不是很準啊"},{"start":9661.926,"end":9671.056,"text":"已經都超今年度1到5月已經超過1479億了卓院長如果今年超售的時候你要怎麼用是報告委員"},{"start":9672.066,"end":9698.526,"text":"最近的時增數跟預算數會發生這種落差是因為我們編訂的時候是一年前經過很多的國際因素國內因素我不是問你這個問題啊我問你要怎麼用我要講的就是他超增多少那當然是預估但重要的是我說問你要怎麼用時增數多的它的用途在哪裡我問你怎麼用要不要給其他非六都的縣市65歲以上的民眾跟六都一樣健保免費"},{"start":9699.502,"end":9727.022,"text":"不是我覺得他應該補先補這個差短然後再補債務那還有一些特籌特別統籌還是還是我們要修裁劃法我們要不要修裁劃法這個要順序下來我們要不要修裁劃法賴總統在擔任市長的時候以及他在擔任行政院長的時候他說要修裁劃法你認為現在要不要修裁劃法"},{"start":9728.095,"end":9752.407,"text":"財化法報告大院裡面已經在討論嘛,那我們認為現在財化法在實行這麼多年下來,中央對地方的補助較8年前增加了兩三千億,三千四百億。有沒有修的必要?還是賴總統也要放在總統府,還有在成立一個財化收支的委員會?會不會他自己來做?是不是?這個不需要。"},{"start":9753.157,"end":9763.338,"text":"所以為什麼當初他希望做而今天執政了是因為你卓院長當行政院長他就不想要做了是不是"},{"start":9764.465,"end":9767.548,"text":"所以你的說法跟財政部的莊部長一樣嘛先解決水平再解決垂直那是不是拖遲那為什麼不先解決垂直再解決水平呢?是不是?"},{"start":9791.949,"end":9814.456,"text":"先解決垂直分配,不要讓中央集權又集錢嘛。過去25年前在動審之後我們就討論要修財化收支法,但是到了現在我們還不願意把多的錢分配給地方,如果政府不願意"},{"start":9815.356,"end":9842.161,"text":"就是自己來做65歲以上的人讓所有的民眾能夠在六都跟在其他縣是一視同仁嘛那你們不做讓國民黨的地方政府來做嘛好不好報告委員我剛剛說我再說一次現在跟8年前相比給地方的補助多了3400億而且還有我們整體的預算也增加了我的意思就是說不修任何的"},{"start":9842.961,"end":9847.984,"text":"你昨天說要找互證單位比對資料將適婚年齡的未婚青年跟結婚好幾年沒有生子的都一起那請問有沒有侵犯到"},{"start":9869.318,"end":9893.412,"text":"謝謝委員我再次的說明昨天到互證日的頒獎其中有一個獎項就是人口政策的這個措施獎勵的機油獎所以我鼓勵現場的人員希望他們這個基礎上運用更多的AI技術去更精準的投放一些政策的宣導跟獎勵的措施給適合年齡的人是這個用意絕對沒有超越現在的做法"},{"start":9894.372,"end":9902.416,"text":"我一直主張AI要民主AI以不侵犯人權的AI有民主素養的AI所以絕對不會侵犯人權昨天的講法也絕對沒有超越不要不要不要AI是中性的啦AI有沒有民主素養都"},{"start":9915.983,"end":9919.344,"text":"兩位請回,我想要請那個楊總裁跟我們的彭主委"},{"start":9947.672,"end":9960.938,"text":"總察跟主委院長謝謝你你要站著是不是?沒關係啊,你要站著,好好好,你站你站我是說你可以回座說"},{"start":9962.369,"end":9988.596,"text":"你要站著是不是?好,你站,你站。院長,你要回座休息嗎?沒關係沒關係。你要站著是不是?好好好。欸,楊總裁,我想請教一下,就教一下。就是今年大家都,就是外界都在盛傳,也在研究喔,9月份美國聯準會法會降息嗎?那你的看法是如何?"},{"start":9989.518,"end":10015.954,"text":"是,那個市場是做這樣的一個Pricing,有這樣的一個預期。有這樣的預期,你的看法勒?市場也蠻那個的啦。你有很多估計模型啊,你的估計模型勒?我是覺得就是說美國在下半年這邊它有降息的機會。有,是不是?是。如果它降了。是。"},{"start":10016.772,"end":10032.431,"text":"我們央行會不會跟著降?我注意到了,你的央行的理監事會就在連整會的後面。是,我跟委員報告,當然就是說利率升降是由理事會來決定。"},{"start":10034.013,"end":10050.448,"text":"那不過呢我就說美國這樣那大家都猜就是說中央銀行也會這樣那其實我在幾次的那個場合我也是這麼回答了就是說事實上台灣的情況跟美國的情況也不盡然是相同啦"},{"start":10051.208,"end":10071.466,"text":"所以就是說不是說全球都要這樣那台灣就一定這樣但是就是說台灣會看國際的情況是怎麼樣我們國內的情況是怎麼樣來做這個決定那這是理事會來決定的好所以你是有條件的不一定會跟他講什麼條件你會跟著他講"},{"start":10073.781,"end":10087.186,"text":"如果說像說那個美國他調降的主要的目的是第一個他的經濟情況就是下來了主要的是說他的通膨下來他的經濟情況也是下來那在這兩種情況之下他就會調降"},{"start":10091.727,"end":10117.407,"text":"那臺灣的話呢我們的通膨率到目前為止都已經到差不多是在2%左右啦都已經在2%左右那我們的經濟成長呢雖然是今年比去年好但是呢是稍微就是說復甦那在動力是因為去年是積極的關係對不對對對對有一部分委員是沒有錯是有一部分是積極的一個因素對沒有錯"},{"start":10118.186,"end":10135.887,"text":"我們昨天去看財經公司,我有看到了對於數位貨幣的推廣,你們說到了我們現在所採用的就是real-time growth settlement,我們的交易量每秒可以到達100幣。"},{"start":10137.288,"end":10159.51,"text":"是比現在你們推估就是你們的技術去識別化的區塊鏈技術每秒只能10筆那你預計什麼時候我們去識別化去中心化的區塊鏈技術可以到達每秒100筆以上的所以現在才是正在那個"},{"start":10160.111,"end":10160.651,"text":"你們的資本額多少?"},{"start":10188.393,"end":10205.388,"text":"他的資本額昨天他也有說明阿是是是你們資本額很高欸你EPS也很好欸阿你說了不用分配回去但是你們賺錢要回饋我們一般民眾嘛是不是"},{"start":10206.589,"end":10224.763,"text":"我昨天呢針對這個問題我也有表達我個人的意見就是說像財經公司呢他是比較屬於科技方面的啦那科技方面的你如果說看看其他國家的科技像我昨天也講了還有"},{"start":10238.274,"end":10241.536,"text":"好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝卓院長下一位我們請審發會委員質詢"},{"start":10268.739,"end":10275.626,"text":"主席我們請卓院長請這個金管會議彭主委卓院長還有彭主委請備詢委員好委員長早彭主委早委員好我想今天利用這個很短的總視訊的時間我想就針對我們這個有關於"},{"start":10294.349,"end":10299.126,"text":"我們要打造這個亞洲資產管理中心這個政策目標來進行探討"},{"start":10300.543,"end":10327.342,"text":"因為這個打造亞洲資產管理中心這個不只是我們賴清德總統在去年選舉期間12月的時候提出來的一個重要的政見那在這個5月31號的施政報告我們卓院長也在施政報告裡面也特別有提到這個打造亞洲資產管理中心這個將推動這個作為未來的施政中心作為金管會未來的施政中心那"},{"start":10328.889,"end":10344.545,"text":"我看到彭主委我們在上個月6月17日那時候有做一個宣布就是說預計要在8月20日也就是就任滿三個月的時間要提出這個有關亞洲資產管理中心的相關的規劃"},{"start":10345.959,"end":10368.483,"text":"那這個部分我想就在今天這個時候因為打造這個亞洲資產管理中心這個確實是一個非常重要而且也是美麗的一個願景但是事實上這個民間或者是業界大家最擔心的就是過去我們政府常常有許多的"},{"start":10369.113,"end":10369.273,"text":"現在是剛剛"},{"start":10391.533,"end":10412.308,"text":"委員所說我們在總詢詢提之前施政報告提出了其中包括亞洲資產管理中心而且不滿委員我們剛剛休息的時候我們兩位還在後面的休息室談下一個階段要怎麼做那就提到說在兩個月之後就是8月20左右那個時間這個今晚會要如何來促使這個事情"},{"start":10412.688,"end":10441.376,"text":"那他已經有一個報告這個報告就在等一下跟稍晚他會來跟我再做一個詳細的說明那報告我看在他的手上已經是這個部分我也很期待因為距離8月20差不多剩下差不多50天的時間而已其實時間不久應該現在相關的計畫大家最重要是說提出這個規劃之後我個人是是希望說不要說提出這個規劃之後大家事實上這個包括業界包括民間所期待的相關的許多改革他的幅度卻讓人失望這個是最"},{"start":10442.876,"end":10460.484,"text":"這個最要避免了,所以我利用這個在我們規劃提出還有50天的時間今天特別跟彭主委來做一些溝通,那院長你可以請回啦那我來跟這個彭主委來討論這些相關的這些這些有關這個打造亞洲資產管理中心的相關細節這個"},{"start":10464.288,"end":10488.041,"text":"彭主委我想打造亞洲資產管理中心這是我們的目標但是事實上整個亞洲其他有相關的國家與城市大家也希望都在競爭大家都在都是彼此競爭所以我在我希望說我們所提出來這個計畫我就以這個目前看到說也是希望打造這個他們自己成為一個亞洲資產管理中心的這個日本"},{"start":10489.085,"end":10503.184,"text":"以日本相關的這些政策來作為借鏡日本事實上從岸田首相上任之後這2021年他們就提出了一個所謂這個金融市場存入辦公室這樣子的一個做法這是一個流程"},{"start":10503.905,"end":10525.764,"text":"到2022年的時候岸田首相提出這個新資本主義這樣的主張到去年他更就完整的提出了一個他們叫做這個資產運用立國實現計畫這裡面都有各種不一樣的部分而且我個人認為有許多值得我們借鏡的地方尤其是我們要跟他們競爭我們將來我們8月20所推出來的方案"},{"start":10526.164,"end":10546.358,"text":"我個人認為說要足以跟這個日本他們所提出來這些相關的改革計畫至少具有競爭力我們才有辦法打造這個我個人在3月8號那時候你們還沒有上新內閣還沒有上任那時候的總質詢我個人就針對他們那個所謂金融准入"},{"start":10547.159,"end":10547.179,"text":"﹚一、"},{"start":10570.393,"end":10593.285,"text":"你暫時全英文的這個一條龍的這個申請流程這部分齁這部分他們這個東西不只是提出申請的部分啦他們整個整個包括包括你在這個從諮詢的階段開始諮詢的階段一直到註冊的階段到監理未來的監理甚至跟未來這個相關公會的之間的聯繫公文全部都用英文"},{"start":10594.643,"end":10618.946,"text":"這樣子的環境來吸引外資這部分有沒有放入我們未來的計畫當中?這部分我們有同仁專案在研究有關日本金融特區的內容那這個當然是未來我們如果要吸引國外的投資或吸引國外的資產管理公司來台灣一個必備的我們也會在全面檢討這樣一個英語申請的過程"},{"start":10619.865,"end":10626.409,"text":"這個不只是申請喔,我在強調日本他們所推出的這個金融準數辦公室,他們所推出的他們是一條龍式的,從諮詢開始。"},{"start":10629.937,"end":10648.712,"text":"從諮詢一直到這個未來的註冊到未來我們金管會對他的監理甚至包括他跟相關公會之間的文件以後跟相關公會的文件來往都是全英語這樣子的環境其實打造並不容易因為你相關的公會相關我們公務人員相關公關機關相關的這些語言"},{"start":10651.574,"end":10669.371,"text":"議員能力也要有一定的人力基礎。這個部分我希望說能夠納入這個部分。那這個部分因為我在3月在之前的統治局已經大致上討論過了。那接下來所以我今天就是比較重要就是跟這個主委來談有關於這個我們這個"},{"start":10674.966,"end":10698.729,"text":"日本他們暗點首相在去年所提出來這個資產運用立國實現計畫他裡面其實大概分成幾個部分第一個他提出一個所謂這個這個資產所得倍增資產所得倍增計畫這個應該主委應該清楚另外他們提出兩個改革的重點一個是公司治理的改革另外一個呢就是資產管理業跟資產所有者的改革"},{"start":10700.035,"end":10714.999,"text":"我們要成為一個亞洲資產管理中心這個資產管理業的這個改革我想一定是非常重要的重點那我想在8月20號所提出來我們未來將要提出來的這些相關規劃裡面我相信這個有關資產管理業的相關的這些規定"},{"start":10717.318,"end":10739.697,"text":"不管是法規不管是稅制不管是吸引外資的這些相關的規定應該要有大幅度的改革否則的話以我們現在我們先來看看我們的現況日本他們這個日本他們所提出來有關這個資產管理業的這些他們的改革的裡面就我剛講的資產管理業跟資產所有者的改革"},{"start":10740.267,"end":10764.413,"text":"他們在去年的11月20做了一個重大的修法,就是有關日本金融商品取銀法。我們台灣沒有相對應的法,我們台灣就是分為政交法、集交法、投信投顧法。那他們日本整個是整合成一個金融商品取銀法。他們針對金融商品取銀法,他們做了大幅度的修正。"},{"start":10767.843,"end":10788.861,"text":"為什麼他們要做大幅度的修正?就是他們日本他們自己自己日本政府他們看到他們在資產管理業的規模他們資產管理的規模跟他們的GDP在這個整個世界的競爭上面事實上是相對來講他們是弱勢的因此他們必須要修改相關的法令來做這方面的改變"},{"start":10791.084,"end":10814.405,"text":"他們日本他們就覺得說他們這樣子的的有關這個這個資產管理規模跟他們的GDP的這些倍數甚至他們資產管理業的這些公司的加的這些加數他們都認為說遠遠不足啦遠遠不足那我就做了一個比較啦我就做了一個比較這個這個比較前面的這一部外國的部分我是直接就就引這個日本他們的這個這個這個資產運用"},{"start":10818.067,"end":10844.365,"text":"這個立國實現計畫裡面的數據但是最後有關臺灣的部分是我這邊自己統計的那這個如果有錯誤也請這個主委這個報告委員那我們以臺灣的那個投硬投固在管理的資產規模現在大概是本國大概是8兆然後國外是4兆總共12兆對對對8兆我這邊講0.3兆是美金因為他前面這些計算都是美金美金計算所以我這個統計應該是沒有錯"},{"start":10847.065,"end":10869.106,"text":"所以你看這個日本齁日本他們7.2兆美國50兆英國13.5兆法國5.7兆新加坡4兆香港4.6兆台灣才0.3兆美金那我們就看他這個他跟GDP之間的關聯日本他是7.2兆他是GDP的1.4倍美國是"},{"start":10872.23,"end":10896.877,"text":"的這個資產管理規模是他們GDP的2.1倍英國到4.3倍然後新加坡是9.4倍香港是12.5倍那臺灣呢臺灣是GDP的一半一半這個這個就顯示我們的這個資金跟金融的人才事實上以現況來講事實上是有外流之餘就從這些數字上面來判斷那這個這個"},{"start":10902.793,"end":10928.839,"text":"我想這個有關有關現在這樣子的現況齁主委我們在用什麼樣的方式來做一些改變?這個鮑威啊主要是我們也有仔細的研究一下我們所謂的世界上我們臨近的這些所謂的金融中心或資產管理中心比如說我們可以概分為兩個模式一個是新加坡模式跟杜拜模式他大概就是引資為主他本身並沒有很多的產業像我們看日本"},{"start":10929.719,"end":10957.539,"text":"日本的發展模式我覺得是很值得我們借鏡比如說他剛剛的不管高度、廣度、深度跟一般性都值得我們參考比如說他是由首相來做一個宣示我們是總統的政見再來就是比如說他的廣度他結合他的NISA國民教育還有金融倍增這是全套的不是只有資產管理再來就是他的深度他把全國作為發展的眾生比如說東京都當作傳統的金融中心來發展他的大阪就結合他的產學研做創新的基地"},{"start":10957.739,"end":10983.43,"text":"他們提出了四個對對福岡、北海道跟九州最重要是他還有北海道的雜黃做那個綠色金融所以他是個全套的我覺得這是非常有值得參考再來他剛剛委員有提到他提供一般性也對一些外商非常友好或是對資本比如剛才英語的環境提供永久居留權稅還有一些費用的減免程序而且這些都是我們可以來參考的"},{"start":10984.31,"end":11012.799,"text":"剛剛委員也提到就是說我們臺灣的特色臺灣是有產業有產業所以我們初步規劃就是我們除了像傳統新加坡引財為主我們留財更重要怎麼樣做到投資臺灣知識產業發展這樣的一個資產管理中心我覺得這是一個未來發展我想齁這個剛剛主委講這個是相當正確的但是也非常全面那我現在集中在有關這個資產管理業的這些相關的"},{"start":11014.056,"end":11020.714,"text":"規定就是我剛所講日本這些這個商品取行法的修正事實上修正他們這個"},{"start":11023.654,"end":11051.783,"text":"其實修正的內容有很多啦我就這個有關資產管理業的部分他們過去日本他們在這個他們這個就商品規劃跟這個投資執行還有他們甚至這些中後台的作業他們日本過去是完全你說這些這些資產管理業都要自己做他們現在那我們台灣我們台灣是應該是這個中後台作業可以委外但是我們在這個商品規劃跟投資執行"},{"start":11053.171,"end":11069.101,"text":"投資執行的部分不能委外啦應該目前的投信投估是這樣子那日本他們現在要整個鬆綁他們希望鬆綁到這個讓投資執行跟中後台作業整個都可以委外來執行那我們這個未來這個部分我們有沒有相關的這樣的方向規劃"},{"start":11069.932,"end":11070.092,"text":"這個部分齁 這個這個"},{"start":11090.287,"end":11117.63,"text":"我想這個主委自己有講其實這整個我們這個有關要讓台灣變成有具有競爭力的這個亞洲資產管理中心有大概幾個面向像這個法規法規的鬆綁這個一定是其中重要的一環那其他的包括你這個充沛的專業人力這個是我們主委所講的充沛的專業人力另外資金要能夠自由移動這牽涉到我們的這個"},{"start":11120.194,"end":11135.273,"text":"這個匯率管制另外就是要有具吸引力的稅制這個部分是我最擔心的我今天本來想請財政部長上來跟你再談一談說我們相關的這些稅制未來這些稅制不用了現在已經剩下不到一分鐘了"},{"start":11137.289,"end":11158.303,"text":"稅制的改革這個部分恐怕也是我們這次整個這個能不能成功的打造這個亞洲資產管理中心的一個核心議題這個部分這個要具有吸引力的稅制再來就是創造容易溝通的環境我剛剛有提到這樣類似全英語這樣子的方式最後就是一個彈性的組織架構這是主委所講的我希望說這個我們"},{"start":11162.341,"end":11163.322,"text":"我們一定努力謝謝委員謝謝沈委員"},{"start":11191.479,"end":11213.927,"text":"報告委員會現在在議場二樓的貴賓是美國國會助理訪問團的朋友們。我們在此歡迎他們的參訪。報告委員會中嘉賓委員之質詢以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報。下一位請林德福委員質詢。"},{"start":11230.447,"end":11236.971,"text":"謝謝大院主席江副院長。是不是請那個卓院長。請卓院長備選。委員好。卓院長你好。卓院長我請教,因為臺灣"},{"start":11250.535,"end":11264.645,"text":"消費者物價上漲率CPI已經連續三年超過2%,通膨成為近年最受關注的議題。不過對於外界習慣定2%為通膨的警戒線,央行現在認為臺灣屬於小型開放的經濟體,"},{"start":11274.848,"end":11289.023,"text":"採取彈性的整個物價穩定的定義應較為妥適。那我請問院長採取彈性的物價穩定定義的做法通膨警戒標準是不是成為變動指數"},{"start":11292.502,"end":11317.143,"text":"電動的一個指標是不是先跟我們報告我們今年的預期會比去年好一點2.07今年比去年稍微就是我們強力在穩定物價那我也知道民眾的一般生活就是跟他生活息息相關的核心的物價他會感受比較深用平均來算當然大家會認為說好像事實有點差距所以央行在精進整個計算的過程當中我們請央行來說明"},{"start":11319.588,"end":11337.728,"text":"我跟委員報告基本上這個2%是大家都一般都認為就是說它是一個警戒線那不過呢就一個small open就是一個小型開放的經濟體來講的話事實上呢在2%左右應該都可以接受了那在武漢民間預測機構要依據哪種"},{"start":11341.391,"end":11369.372,"text":"這個標準定義會通膨?是那大概也是是這樣子大概都是2%左右2%左右因為本期是認為說如果標準台性過大又會不會造成預測單位各說各話?應該也是不會因為就是說我們所謂的2%左右這個也不是說短期就是說今年是這樣事實上呢所謂的2%是中長期的平均數"},{"start":11370.453,"end":11384.93,"text":"那也就是說你可能一年的時候你可以高於2%,然後有些時候你會低於2%,但是中長期的時候平均在2%左右的話應該都可以接受的。"},{"start":11386.215,"end":11404.891,"text":"事實上從消費者物價指數變動乃至於要定義為通膨率民眾關心的只有一點那就是從荷包拿錢買東西不要變貴但要怎麼樣讓民眾不覺得買東西變貴本席認為說20多年來"},{"start":11412.363,"end":11436.304,"text":"國內民眾所得差距極端化,貧富差距持續的加劇,就是近年來持續討論卻又無藥可醫的一個問題。那請問院長,到底貧富差距所得差距極端化是不是資本主義社會民主國家下不可逆的一種現象呢?"},{"start":11438.914,"end":11450.269,"text":"不可否認他是一個因素但是政府都會用很多的其他的方法手段去平衡這些數字數字上的差距其實我們在最近公布的111年的數據是6.15"},{"start":11453.613,"end":11455.053,"text":"所以這幾年剛剛也提到政府從中央預算"},{"start":11475.905,"end":11477.705,"text":"所以說你認為目前政府所擁有的政策工序是不是都已經擺上用場了?"},{"start":11505.231,"end":11508.473,"text":"因為媒體報導政府面對通盟的作為,央行認為伴隨全球化、走向零碎化等結構性因素的轉變"},{"start":11527.824,"end":11528.204,"text":"那我請問院長"},{"start":11553.9,"end":11563.432,"text":"央行所說的財政政策哪些是現在政府已經實施在物價穩定上,你認為有哪些?"},{"start":11566.229,"end":11582.8,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上我們這幾年我們的物價會跟歐美國家相對的我們比較穩定是在供給面因為我們是實施供給面譬如說當然就是說對這個油電的一個濕納這是一個就是供給面另外一個就是關稅啦營業稅啦還有那個貨物稅這個調降這個都是供給面"},{"start":11597.39,"end":11623.448,"text":"總裁那個其實齁那個是我們超徵你看這兩年包括所有的電費這個電台電阿他的損失等於是他的虧損五千多億捏也是政府去補貼這個都是人民的納稅錢那其實這個當然主要就是因為他虧損年年那講實在話再進一步去"},{"start":11624.48,"end":11651.596,"text":"議員長"},{"start":11651.716,"end":11677.664,"text":"其實從520你就任行政院長後當然臺股大盤高點就從21300多點上漲到23400多點短短30個交易日臺股大漲了2000多點原本就本席來觀察從臺股今年年初開紅盤到現在幾乎可說是從17000多點持續上漲不回頭那我請問院長"},{"start":11679.298,"end":11698.016,"text":"年初至今臺股上漲5000多點到底是我們的整個經濟表現的強勁帶動股市還是去年我們整個經濟景氣低迷那今年是互輸的一個回溫所以說才有這樣的一個反彈力道的導致"},{"start":11698.937,"end":11699.437,"text":"您的看法呢?那你認為?"},{"start":11726.305,"end":11730.347,"text":"每個投資的廣告都會下這一句話大家應該投資者應該有心理的準備他應該算準自己的能量以及大家對未來的形勢的掌握能夠精準的投資"},{"start":11752.217,"end":11778.575,"text":"委員長事實上臺股和美股一樣屢創新高從一般角度來看主要還是受惠經濟基本面支撐及對未來整個景氣的預期按照央行第二季理監事會討論的預期這個楊總裁表示說今年內內外需會回溫因此調高經濟成長率3.77%那我請問院長今年經濟成長率向上調"},{"start":11782.097,"end":11788.522,"text":"你怎麼來看臺股未來的整個前景?有什麼看法?目前整個臺股大盤是不是已經提前反映經濟成長率的上調?還是經濟成長後勢?"},{"start":11810.134,"end":11831.93,"text":"可期,那台股大盤上攻的空間能就大有可為。總裁你有什麼看法?是啦,我想剛剛那個委員也有提到就是說國際的股市都是像美國它也是創新高,歐洲也是創新高,日本創新高,日本只是說它創新高以後再稍微回檔"},{"start":11832.971,"end":11833.151,"text":"台股大盤理狀新高"},{"start":11856.533,"end":11856.553,"text":"院長"},{"start":11880.393,"end":11905.609,"text":"央行表示國內經濟上半年社會剛剛陳如總裁所提的能工智慧AI的熱潮相關產品出口暢旺那國內下半年則是輸出文件的成長帶動民間整個投資貢獻轉正而且民間消費的動能延續是支撐經濟成長的重要來源再加上主計總數今年"},{"start":11906.75,"end":11907.11,"text":"政府一定會提出前瞻的政策"},{"start":11929.377,"end":11931.378,"text":"我們一定要提供穩定的政策這是必要的"},{"start":11958.555,"end":11987.243,"text":"照那個卓院長講,如果國內緊急持續的回溫,那台股大盤未來是不是還有期待向上的空間呢?你的看法呢?需要努力,大家一起努力。大家一起努力。那另外我再請那個莊部長一併上來,那個請總裁跟主委先回去。那個卓院長,因為財化法在民國88年修到現在為止,已經啊"},{"start":11988.362,"end":11999.579,"text":"經過了25年那這個因為財務法因為我在財委會算是資深也經過很多次的修訂但是主要"},{"start":12000.882,"end":12028.919,"text":"以前每一次只要修各縣市的財政局局長來有的首長來但是為什麼沒有辦法達成共識因為他都是本身站在自己的立場觀點來看整個財化法未來要如何修如何分配但是其實要是說這些縣市因為縣市不是只有藍的綠的也有甚至於綠的他們也提出說應該要修正"},{"start":12030.956,"end":12059.165,"text":"才華法。而且齁我認為說在這個上上個禮拜還上個禮拜齁這個我們財委會有修有一個臨時提案就是一定要在下一次我們開會前由財政部啊你提出你們的版本來來審那到底現在的進度如何那有沒有提出來在這下一次"},{"start":12059.747,"end":12066.803,"text":"就是會期開始的時候會被提出來就是併進去審查那個部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":12068.062,"end":12091.013,"text":"跟委員報告,您因為在台委會很久,您也知道,那麼25年來,行政院曾經提過5次的版本,但是都因為沒有共識,所以沒有能夠玩自由版。那這一次呢,就是我們其實已經去調查過各地方政府對於分配的指標表達意見,但是非常的分歧,所以這個部分我們必須要去凝聚共識,到目前來說分歧性很大。"},{"start":12091.573,"end":12111.314,"text":"那上一次財委會通過那個決議他是建請我們提出版本那這個部分呢我們會在近期會再請地方政府還有各部會來還有相關的部會要是到財委會大家取得共識你們要不要提版本嗎我就是請教你部長跟院長嘛所謂的共識就是第一個就是大家認為說應該怎麼樣分配比較合理"},{"start":12114.097,"end":12129.218,"text":"對那現在問題還是很分歧分歧那是你講的但是我們有徵詢過事實上是有很多縣市他們已經有達到某種共識認為說應該要來修而且那個比例應該要怎麼調因為"},{"start":12131.06,"end":12134.382,"text":"委員其實中央每年釋出總共有8000多億到地方統籌分配稅款"},{"start":12160.455,"end":12160.475,"text":"好"},{"start":12185.114,"end":12199.024,"text":"好,我們謝謝林委員好,謝謝卓院長吳秉瑞委員之質詢已書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢謝謝主席,我請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":12220.169,"end":12236.468,"text":"黃委員好是院長好我想今天是財政部門的質詢所以大家大家都focus在才化法我想問一下院長才化法對你來說他是該修還是不該修我的想法是那個修修的修"},{"start":12238.905,"end":12261.016,"text":"我的想法是說在現行的才化法的底下我們逐年中央對地方補助在增加。在這樣的方式繼續來行政。我只問您的個人看法25年了該修還是不該修?這張照片如果印象沒有錯的話它是2012年2012年的蘇貞昌主席在帶著"},{"start":12262.436,"end":12288.328,"text":"賴清德市長還有民進黨團的總召他們召集的一個立法院的記者會也就是提出修法版本如果該修而沒有修就剛剛講沒有共識所以一直都沒有修過那我想請問一下如果現在制度很好為什麼91年游錫堃院長提96年張俊雄院長提97年賴清德市長跟"},{"start":12289.465,"end":12318.554,"text":"科建民他將在立委的時候提然後101年潘孟安立委跟科建民又提版本所以我們想問一下落實地方自治充實地方裁員這是不是民主進步黨他們執政的理想沒有錯我們現在還是以均衡台灣的理念來做沒錯所以財政健全落實地方自治是每一個民主國家政府應該要捍衛的權利不是嗎"},{"start":12319.218,"end":12345.505,"text":"是的第二個這個才化法大家就說他是一個魔戒開玩笑說國民黨執政了國民黨也不想休當民進黨執政之後民進黨想休是在他們在野的時候當拿到執政權一樣所謂的集權又集權所以讓這個魔戒一直拖不下來我今天要跟院長討論就是我也相信這是大家的信仰"},{"start":12346.553,"end":12365.998,"text":"我們也希望地方政府他很清楚的知道他有多少財源他去努力他的地方財源他要得到合理的分配他要看到公開的資訊甚至比較透明的方案我覺得這個是才化法我們的精神所以我要跟院長說一下這個信仰從民進黨執政之前"},{"start":12368.779,"end":12396.697,"text":"2011年陳其邁現在的市長說不可以讓中央政府再用空頭支票來騙人民當時的民進黨主席蘇貞昌說國家領導人沒有長遠的眼光起碼要有解決現在眼前問題的能力下一個是柯建民總長才化法是立法院黨團永遠的第一優先法案25年了好像都是他第一優先法案但是今年突然變成不是了"},{"start":12397.403,"end":12398.403,"text":"當然是,我們希望均衡臺灣就是讓各地都能夠得到"},{"start":12426.465,"end":12427.185,"text":"所以剛剛講的是過去我們看看最近"},{"start":12447.014,"end":12466.903,"text":"最近的是去年12月賴清德總統的官方網站裡面講得非常的清楚院長你也有參與他的總統選舉吧這個是賴清德總統的國家希望工程其中的一部分檢討統籌分配款的模式還有檢討地方稅法通則"},{"start":12468.258,"end":12491.628,"text":"這個是落實增加分配公平性跟充實地方裁員。分配公式要多元客觀的地方特色指標,跟我們講的都一樣。所以我再問您一次,你們行政院要不要提出自己的版本?我們認為現在的版本是經過多年共識執行下來的。所以你覺得現在版本已經是最好的版本,那你們為什麼要提了4次的修法案?"},{"start":12493.018,"end":12494.439,"text":"我再問院長一次賴清德總統卓院長要不要落實?"},{"start":12510.612,"end":12513.916,"text":"總統的政見我們逐步在落實,這個內容就是我們如何在一般跟特別統籌分配款當中合理的"},{"start":12530.894,"end":12556.198,"text":"只是檢討而已。我們可以在一般跟特別統籌分配稅款當中做合理的分配跟落實使用。我今天就是要確認說卓院長要落實但是不修法是嗎?我們認為現在的法律已經是中央地方合作的一個共同的經驗。如果現在的法律這麼棒民進黨當年就不用提了四次的修法這四次的修法講到都是一樣改變垂直分配檢討水平分配"},{"start":12556.798,"end":12563.048,"text":"我現在給院長看一下你們的版本跟我們這一次現行法的版本還有國民黨版以及民眾黨版的比較。"},{"start":12564.481,"end":12590.718,"text":"這四次民進黨的提案其實跟現在的現行版跟我們的版本我們民眾黨的版本跟民進黨的版本是最像的第一營業稅全部給地方這是歷年來民進黨的主張燕酒稅全部給地方這也是歷年來民進黨的主張而且有關所得稅的分配包括到最後一次柯建民跟潘孟阿的提案他們提的比民眾黨的提案還要兇啊"},{"start":12591.878,"end":12619.934,"text":"他從10%變20%我的意思是說這些都是一個大家幾乎是長期來有共識的範圍第二個部分臺灣民眾黨的版本裡面很清楚的是跟民進黨版本一樣我們希望能夠納入地方的意見還有專家學者意見我們希望成立分配委員會當年的民進黨版本也是希望納入所謂地方的意見以及學者專家這次的版本其實跟民進黨版本比較雷同我再問一次"},{"start":12620.373,"end":12646.198,"text":"院長,你們對以前民進黨版本這幾個原則,營業稅下放地方,菸酒稅下放地方,以及成立所謂的專家學者以及地方代表加入的所謂分配原則的檢討,您個人支持嗎?顧問委員報告,在現行的這個才華法底下,我們都願意聆聽各方的意見,那有機會可以共同的討論。我們講了半天,你還是不修法,是嗎?"},{"start":12647.273,"end":12670.191,"text":"我們現在就是現行的版本是足以讓我們對地方做十足的幫忙。所以剛剛林德福委員講得很清楚,財政委員會建請下個會期之前希望看到行政院的版本,行政院的立場到今天為止,因為您上任之後我們看到的是民進黨團代替了行政院發言說民進黨不提版本,民進黨不提行政院版本,到今天為止依然是這個立場嗎?"},{"start":12671.55,"end":12700.372,"text":"我的想法一直很一致啊所以民進黨的執政黨不提,民進黨團也不提所以財政委員會審議的不會有行政院版本目前你的答案是這樣現行的版本就是我們的想法所以院長其實我蠻失望的啦因為提出一個修正版本並沒有干涉或影響到中央的權限但是你們有態度有方式把合理的部分我剛講沒有人要去"},{"start":12701.169,"end":12701.449,"text":"但院長我希望"},{"start":12722.864,"end":12730.174,"text":"您現在說的話兩個月後的下一個會期可能會有很大的衝突如果可以的話我希望你們還是審慎的去討論"},{"start":12731.727,"end":12752.837,"text":"行政院要提出修正的版本不管怎麼樣好的版本我們也會支持你們報告委員能夠參考一下8年來在整個三項的補助款當中對地方實質增加3400億這個努力增加錢不等於現在的財化法是好的版本增加的預算是因為各種不同的因素而增加了地方的補助沒錯"},{"start":12753.917,"end":12756.159,"text":"﹚中央的財政不錯,現在就跟你說了﹚"},{"start":12784.198,"end":12802.715,"text":"相關分配方式這是我們希望我們提出來我們也希望行政院能夠聽進去就這個版本也希望院長好好的去參考一下回到剛剛看到的賴清德總統他在大選的官網符合這個原則下我希望行政院"},{"start":12803.188,"end":12830.387,"text":"要怎麼落實必須要提出自己的議場否則我們在立法院有一個可能性因為上次在這邊跟院長討論最近大家都在上憲法課會不會民進黨團總召又說了只要是在野黨提出的才化法版本又是違憲會不會要看內容所以我們的版本如果跟當年的民進黨團的一模一樣就不違憲了嗎"},{"start":12831.84,"end":12837.641,"text":"但是財政紀律法是有所改變的。是,所以重點是我們希望行政院"},{"start":12838.649,"end":12865.749,"text":"提不提版本不要成為你們行政怠惰的藉口不要成為將來又要去復議釋憲的藉口如果行政院現在的態度是我不提版本你們提了就是違憲然後接下來我就是復議再過來我就是釋憲臺灣將永無明日啊院長我希望你們有版本的理由是希望行政院能夠正面的面對才化法必須修正的事實"},{"start":12866.77,"end":12872.337,"text":"而且也是我想也是各縣市政府還有到目前為止各黨的共識。好嗎?院長。"},{"start":12875.503,"end":12899.2,"text":"我們還是回到這個希望院裡面大院裡面那個朝委黨團有一個討論我們現在就是希望我們正在跟民進黨團討論啊那就是等財政部的版本啊但財政部到今天為止都不會回答我行政院的立場就是說我們現行的版本是可以執行的但是我們可以討論怎麼樣讓它更合理我們不影響你們的運作的情況下接下來我要問說復議的標準在哪裡剛剛講"},{"start":12902.282,"end":12906.553,"text":"如果你們認為我們不合理的,或者是行政院沒有立場的,你們都認為是違憲嗎?都認為是至愛難行嗎?"},{"start":12909.563,"end":12935.561,"text":"自然難行它有一定的﹖所以違憲就自然難行但違憲是由行政院說了算﹖違憲當然自然難行但自然難行不一定違憲對所以不一定每一個案子都違憲是的但是你們認為違憲就違憲不是這要經過憲法法庭來做訴訟好我們現在最近在上憲法課我們突然間臺灣大家都在變成憲法專家第一違憲不等於違憲就一定自然難行嗎"},{"start":12937.132,"end":12964.33,"text":"我們認為是。你們認為是。所以只要你們認為違憲的就無法執行。就無法執行。不能在沒有憲法的依據下做任何的違法行政。憲法70條現在是柯總召上口的。只要是立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出的倡提議。只要有提出預算的增加就是違憲。對嗎?是的。這是行政院的立場還是柯總召的立場?這是憲法的立場。這是憲法的立場。所以預算案你們認為這個當然沒有問題。但是"},{"start":12967.213,"end":12995.525,"text":"法律案呢?法律案。我們現在憲法70條是預算案不得為增加支出的提議。大法官會解釋很清楚叫預算案。現在我要問的是法律案。法律增加支出到底是不是治安難行?是不是違憲?這邊有幾個。一個是原住民的進法補償。目前是行政院沒有版本。立法院提案。通過了。然後村里長事務被提高到五萬。這個沒有行政院的版本。通過了。"},{"start":12996.127,"end":13021.87,"text":"那去年上一屆立法院增加了國際事務處增加了預算沒有行政院提案通過了請問行政院有沒有覆議要不要釋憲我們經過跟憲法公法學者的討論就是把預算這些不用釋憲這些不用覆議雖然不是預算案把預算直接進到法律名預算入法是那就有可能牽涉到這個憲法的精神所以就可能違憲"},{"start":13023.055,"end":13049.737,"text":"我們認為這可能有侵犯憲法之餘所以透過專家學者我們考慮是不是就憲政的秩序來做一個解釋好所以院長我現在就可以告訴你所有的立法委員都會提出相關的所謂扶國立民不是減少人民的負擔就是增加政府的支出每一個計劃每一個提案都牽涉到預算所以你要對所有的法律案都有這樣的態度嗎"},{"start":13050.319,"end":13064.269,"text":"但是如果把實質的預算金額直接入法,那就是一個可以爭議的地方。我希望你的標準就是,入法就這樣,所以以後我們不能通過任何法,因為只要你們不同意的。預算金額直接入法。噢,好,所以才化法不會違法,不會違憲。"},{"start":13065.875,"end":13087.4,"text":"財化法是中央地方全縣的合理分財化法一方面是錢的問題一般是市者的問題院長我們今天不討論憲法我要講的是行政院的標準一致就好否則以後立法院提出所有的扶國立民的法案都可能違憲最後我想問一個到底我們現在融資公司大家有看到了嗎融資公司很多現在"},{"start":13088.601,"end":13111.751,"text":"用各種手續費、代辦費、違約金、實質利率超過法定利率但是沒人管。我只想問接下去在之前我們的張俊雄行政院長當年他其實就訂過所謂的融資公司法雖然沒有通過但是他當時就訂了金管會市相關的主管機關"},{"start":13112.697,"end":13125.38,"text":"目前為止臺灣所有的融資公司沒人管叫做經濟部管經濟部管的等於沒有人管然後現在金管會是用政企局然後說上市公司所以我們對那幾家來做管"},{"start":13158.741,"end":13182.394,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員。謝謝卓院長。報告院會財政組之質詢已詢答完畢。本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案,就不進行臨時提案之處理。下午2點30分繼續開會,進行教育及文化組之質詢。現在休息。"},{"start":20707.858,"end":20710.128,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":20911.254,"end":20912.995,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21073.712,"end":21085.674,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21113.029,"end":21142.381,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21226.903,"end":21227.841,"text":"觀賞"},{"start":21601.089,"end":21607.992,"text":"報告委員會,現在我們繼續開會,進行教育及文化的質詢。首先我們請丁學中委員質詢。感謝院長,感謝我們國國會官員,我們在庭的立委動員,跟現場的各位委員會財政人。我在這裡請我們的院長以及我們政府長和理事長。"},{"start":21629.295,"end":21652.947,"text":"麻煩請左院長以及教育部、文化部、教育部請備詢。議員好,謝謝院長好、兩位部長好。我首先在這裡請議長和兩位國長先看一看我們在地的裝置藝術的影片。"},{"start":21663.234,"end":21674.106,"text":"本省一本省,全都全都是全省,勞動省市主管管,將本部管平省。"},{"start":21686.369,"end":21706.978,"text":"院長報告,這是我們後衛的一款受歡迎金的裝置藝術。我們也邀請到我們的鋼雕大師楊柏林大師來打造成一個觀光景點。這也是我們後衛的地標,也是我們古代繫米打卡的一個地點。"},{"start":21707.398,"end":21724.838,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":21725.198,"end":21725.218,"text":"委員長"},{"start":21742.346,"end":21764.172,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":21764.392,"end":21777.375,"text":"是比較久看了。在這我要請教李副長,我們副長是一個作家,也是曾經當過媒體的總經理。你是身為一個文化人,也是媒體人。我相信這個國際會議的文化是台灣人45、60年代共同的一個會議。但是當今年我們婦人館的藝文教育紮根的構造"},{"start":21792.739,"end":21793.64,"text":"我先去看一個戲劇"},{"start":21815.267,"end":21831.44,"text":"叫做卻視三姊妹,就是說用雲林作為一個傳統戲劇的一個中心,票賣得很好。但是我們整個﹚委員會到水橋,到委員會就對了。是啊是啊,所以這部分請你放心。"},{"start":21832.662,"end":21845.293,"text":"文化部其實投資在傳統汽水大概有5億多,前面的計畫兩年大概有3800萬,最近我有一個計畫是4000多萬,所以沒有去砍預算的問題。"},{"start":21847.603,"end":21855.668,"text":"沒有去看預算的問題,那部長就是確定會繼續支持我們的明顯的固態性。對,過去5年,我們文化部補助我們訓練這個國際奧細節,才有兩千萬的周遊的經費,這起因就全世界固態性。"},{"start":21869.597,"end":21879.181,"text":"當國是有事的時候都來跟我們合夥來參加這個活動。而這個成功的活動我相信我們補充也希望說我們中央駐陸經費的療養,可以讓這個活動完了經過成功,我們想要繼續把它延續下去。不要說因為這個經費的問題,把這個成功的活動抓好十年,這不是我們所期待的,也不是我們政府對著這個文化推動所想要做的事情。"},{"start":21899.369,"end":21904.052,"text":"拜託我們保證,希望可以演習到過去這個政策,支持我們訓練這個古代式的鄉下雜耕計畫,以及我們國是、國際奧士節的經費,這樣好不好?因為鮑德爾對台灣文化來講,國際推廣其實是最重要的議員,再沒問題。"},{"start":21921.241,"end":21931.903,"text":"好,感謝國長有你一句承諾,我就放手了。在這,要請教教育部的政府長,當2014年,我們全國運動會主管單位是當我們副領館。我們存在超過一年的時間,需要我們教育國家制的一個協助,不管是當行政的國分,還是兩體委員會的國分,我們地方的訴求才要兩億。"},{"start":21953.206,"end":21958.45,"text":"阿,咱教育部那全部活動到三天到這間會議是怎樣?"},{"start":21960.731,"end":21964.915,"text":"向委員報告,其實在醫術全國運動會場館的修繕,體育署已經有1億的經費另外在相關運動場館的經費也有預算1億5千萬,所以大概是"},{"start":21984.733,"end":21987.237,"text":"基本上含咱委員所關心的這有關這一個陰陰性的運動場館"},{"start":21998.648,"end":22007.47,"text":"長管設置的過分,我們長管設置的過分,一會兒過分我們分就到了。長管設置都要二十幾億的。我們是維修,因為一、四年我們婚姻投訴委員過,我們要辦全國運動會,所以在這個長管的修繕,包括相關的行政軟體維護的過分。大概就是委員所關心的投訴所說的掃墨、不會拆開房子。"},{"start":22028.194,"end":22035.858,"text":"沒差太多啦,我們需要2億6千萬,沒差太多啦。對啦,這次會訪問喔,拜託補充又給我們倒三天啦。但這個運動經常設施喔,我們補起來是21億啦,21億啦。那如果啊,了解說我們教育顧家有可能會工作16億,找到16億嘛,是不是這樣?"},{"start":22054.847,"end":22080.408,"text":"我們基本上向委員報告就是說我們現在整個計劃裡面也現在剛才在這個在申請我們在希望能夠整體來考量整體考量,副長剩下一年的時間我們雲林縣整個全部縣民我們都全部都動起來來迎接114年的這個全國運動會"},{"start":22082.29,"end":22082.41,"text":"主席"},{"start":22118.476,"end":22126.777,"text":"告告通國即便來協助。﹚這天下定要過分啦。﹚順利讓一四年這個全國運動會要開辦之前都可以順利來完工。﹚順利可以這樣。"},{"start":22149.338,"end":22150.92,"text":"報告委員請教育部、交通部看一下"},{"start":22165.26,"end":22183.743,"text":"縣政府的請贈經費,如果有一些是地方自治事項,該地方處理的,我們來做一些協調。那中央一定全力,一起合力來辦好這個全運會。阿剛好院長也說話,我也要拜託院長一件事。我們福林縣小一級偏鄉的學校很多。"},{"start":22184.804,"end":22214.804,"text":"﹚"},{"start":22214.824,"end":22221.069,"text":"我再請教育部跟縣政府去現場或是綜合性的評估一下。在地方自治事項之外,中央政府應該來協助的,我們一起為小孩子的安全問題來著想。"},{"start":22237.242,"end":22237.342,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":22253.541,"end":22278.609,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":22278.949,"end":22291.597,"text":"他們都有申請到我們這個老人熱靈的運動館,老人熱靈運動館,是希望說可以透過專業的教練來教到我們一些中國的師大做這個健康的運動,可以讓他們身體更加健康,這孩子都一定會比較高興,想要真的安靜,想要都可以專利來給我們支持。"},{"start":22302.95,"end":22323.244,"text":"我們從小孩到老人,整體性的社會福利安全都必須要全面的顧慮到,那無論是他將來是不是一個長照機構或是一個在社區的活動中心的一個整個補助跟輔導,我們全力來研究怎麼樣來壓力。感謝院長,上禮拜五剛才也是這個時間第一次,第一年也是我出席了。上禮拜五剛好我生日,希望院長可以給我生日願望。"},{"start":22333.1,"end":22339.605,"text":"天天快樂不是天天快樂支持我們因應縣因應縣的建設我就會快樂這樣好不好這樣拜託我們議長可以將對我們定例外所說的我們這個水利的建設以及我們農業的問題跟今天所說的"},{"start":22350.372,"end":22352.954,"text":"謝謝委員對文化、對小朋友、對老大人的關心。"},{"start":22379.509,"end":22395.043,"text":"五十年前,現在最有機緣,也是半夜去看野球,還是中午去看布袋戲,這都是小孩子陪著我們成長的。所以如果要如何保存、提升,向國際來推銷台灣文化,我是認為政府一定要委員同時來進行。"},{"start":22395.763,"end":22408.318,"text":"我相信我們院長過去我擔任國民意代表你一定是做接地氣接地氣你也了解到地方的訴求所以我說的這就是真正真實是地方的訴求我們也是有機展起來我們也是非常希望說"},{"start":22412.142,"end":22422.625,"text":"我既然來到這裡,來到立法院,我可以再次來替我們訓練官、我們所有鄉親、所有國防事務,來請我總部的一個職員來協助。也要我們中央政府來專利來幫我們倒三槓。好不好?好,希望馬尼的私立,我們這個訓練部隊的中心,可以有一個很清楚的"},{"start":22433.408,"end":22435.009,"text":"接下來我們請登記第二位李玉琳委員質詢"},{"start":22465.09,"end":22468.393,"text":"謝謝主席,請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。議員好。院長好。院長,你是行政院的大家長,也是家裡的家長。所以我想請教你,你為人父母,那你的兒女在小時候的時候,你是不是一定有跟他講一些小故事?會啊。是。所以我請教院長,"},{"start":22494.861,"end":22517.475,"text":"你知道大雨治水嗎?知道。所以本席想問院長你知道是大雨治水那為什麼現在大雨治水會被討論呢?最重要就是媒體報導出來有一個家長跟孩子來分享這個大雨治水的故事但是他這個高中的孩子卻不知道大雨治水"},{"start":22518.155,"end":22537.876,"text":"結果被研上了,那因為大家都認為說大禹治水是個神話,那這個神話你與其去了解大禹治水,你不如去了解這個八田禹一喔,那說到這邊我就要請教院長,你認為八田禹一跟大禹治水哪一個重要?"},{"start":22539.278,"end":22539.598,"text":"所以你的意思哪個重要?"},{"start":22568.274,"end":22595.671,"text":"就歷史來看它就是事實存在的事實存在的歷史都是正確而重要都應該去了解因為我們的國家叫中華民國不管是過去的歷史或是承接的歷史只要是我們國家在我們就必須要去傳承去了解而不是只限於一個區域而已所以講到這邊就表示著八天雨一跟大雨治水是一樣的重要這個院長同意了"},{"start":22596.631,"end":22598.753,"text":"所以講到這邊接下來我就要跟院長來討論的就是我們108課綱"},{"start":22613.524,"end":22634.436,"text":"這個108課綱在上路以來到現在在我們外界這個爭議非常的大因為學生不了解老師又疲於奔命疲於在這備課當中在準備很多的素材我們要孩子在他們適性洋財要去多元選擇課程但是他們課業非常的重在這麼重的課業裡面要去尋求這些課綱去選擇"},{"start":22638.918,"end":22656.373,"text":"所以他們在黑暗中去尋索的時候,他們只得用賭的方式,如果中了中去,賭了對了,他們就找到他們的興趣了。所以才會在外界來講一直說108課綱都要好好的來再討論,是不是?部長您上來了,您認為108課綱要討論嗎?"},{"start":22660.218,"end":22675.519,"text":"跟委員報告事實上從我們這個教育基本法裡邊我們所期待的培養未來的人才的一個圖像事實上那些基本能力這個素養事實上是沒有改變的"},{"start":22676.119,"end":22694.961,"text":"沒有改變,但是我們需要的是專業的人士,專業的老師。但是我們專業人力不足的情況之下,我們很多老師就要去監課。監課下他疲於奔命,工作壓力變得更大,老師累,孩子也累啊。是,這個我想...是就要改變了,該改就要去改吧。"},{"start":22695.711,"end":22714.437,"text":"我同意委員就是說我們在教育現場確實怎麼樣去讓老師他學的一個本科專業能夠從專業裡面去指導所以你同意說必須要專業的老師嗎不能說他是兼課他去備課準備一大堆的資料這樣子他工作量增加了壓力也變大了"},{"start":22715.057,"end":22716.418,"text":"部長,我現在提醒你的就是因為你的多元學習"},{"start":22734.945,"end":22758.54,"text":"讓孩子選擇很多的項目他沒有辦法在很多項目中找到自己的興趣那尤其是他們我們對於考試才會求取到需要的知識嘛所以用考試來準備他們要的知識在這種情形之下的話他變成會被狹隘在一個範圍裡面就是因為要準備考試所以接下來本期要跟你談的就是我們學習歷程的檔案"},{"start":22764.846,"end":22783.518,"text":"他們要準備這個學習歷程檔案但是他本身的課程就已經很多了那孩子們在這麼多課業反省當中他們沒辦法也不了解沒辦法準備所以就變成了這個是金錢的遊戲為什麼這樣說因為他要找補習班來教找補習班來教的話又發生了一個問題因為我們針對於弱勢會變成非常的不公平"},{"start":22791.618,"end":22814.214,"text":"因為是金錢遊戲嘛﹖他沒有金錢去準備補習班來教﹖他沒有金錢去找更多的課外活動﹖讓他的那個學習那個歷程檔案裡面更加的豐富﹖結果這個歷程檔案做出來了﹖是他的興趣嗎﹖是他要的嗎﹖我們打了很大的問號﹖所以外界所以民眾還一直說必須要檢討改進﹖"},{"start":22816.34,"end":22816.58,"text":"因為他缺乏引導阿!"},{"start":22838.237,"end":22839.558,"text":"部長沒有聽到問題的癥結、問題的重要,因為你說從高中三年還不夠。"},{"start":22861.852,"end":22876.937,"text":"﹗"},{"start":22877.057,"end":22877.237,"text":"所以部長我才說"},{"start":22902.492,"end":22928.999,"text":"我必須要有充足的時間他沒有充足的時間就找補習班去教結果這東西就客製化出來了客製化出來的話不是孩子們真正自己的東西所以未來入學的時候給我們科系去看的時候不是正確的這樣對孩子不一定是好的所以我們必須統整去檢討快改的就改不要讓老師批翻面孩子也非常辛苦孩子非常痛苦欸"},{"start":22929.861,"end":22955.704,"text":"感謝委員的關心但是我要利用這個機會跟委員報告以臺大為例我們看到那一些透過推生透過這個學歷程檔案有更多的弱勢或者一般的學生他進入到臺大那這一個也是同時委員在關心的我們希望減少這個地線上這些學生或者家長他們不知道大學的教授他們在看什麼"},{"start":22956.545,"end":22985.157,"text":"所以我想我們在未來在這個溝通我們會部長你的堅持但是我們一定要為學校為老師為學生都好我希望你就去通盤檢討該改的地方我們去改改一個適當的方式讓孩子真的適性洋財能夠學以致用不要讓他們拼一半命那麼辛苦好不好好我們要努力我們又必須要通盤檢討要去改那接下來本席想請教"},{"start":22986.983,"end":23015.561,"text":"院長,院長,你要講學法嗎?學法你要講各個通行語。你同意嗎?抱歉,這個還要學習。還要學習。本身是客家妹啦,所以我們非常重視客家語言。因為現在我們的客語啊,瀕臨這個已經滅絕了。那我們客家人在全台灣來統計上大概有450萬人。但在我們所有的"},{"start":23016.904,"end":23033.423,"text":"總人口數是第二大類的客家人,僅次於福老人。我們看到客語要頻頻滅絕了。院長,你雖然不會講客家話,但是你是政策的指導者,要怎麼做,要怎麼救呢?"},{"start":23035.192,"end":23047.661,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒,客語也是臺灣的國家語言之一。我們在6月27號行政院院會當中已經就國家語言研究發展中心的設置條例我記得那天在討論的時候現場"},{"start":23050.052,"end":23050.973,"text":"是非常的重要啦。"},{"start":23067.495,"end":23086.677,"text":"院長109年的時候我們人口跟我們住宅的普查報告我們大概有客家族群有466萬人但是使用客語的只有129萬人不到三分之一不到三分之一那在全國來的總人口數也不到三分之一所以"},{"start":23087.097,"end":23106.986,"text":"所以在110年全國客家人口進行我們語言的基礎資料的研究報告出來不管是聽的能力說的能力都是下降的尤其是在未到60歲的這個比較年長的家庭裡面他使用客語的不到一成"},{"start":23107.426,"end":23110.888,"text":"所以我們會從各方面來加強,包括剛剛說的國家語言研究發展中心,在這個設立之後,"},{"start":23135.503,"end":23158.609,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":23158.889,"end":23182.265,"text":"剛剛院長特別提到說你的那個設置條例本來我們客語的客家基本法的修正本席都有提案那時候就講說我們客語要有這個發展的研究中心那時候當下我們的法通過之後我們就要設立的後來說因為國家語言的發展中心在等這個法通過後來這個法通過了要等這個設置條例這個設置條例那時候在"},{"start":23183.766,"end":23205.429,"text":"一百零七年的時候到現在七年的時間就為了等國家語言發展中心的設置條例我們等了七年現在終於在上個月送進來了送進來了我們很高興說我們可以國家語言發展中心跟客語的發展中心可以併在一起來做但是文化部文化部的次長"},{"start":23208.459,"end":23230.115,"text":"文化部的次長李敬惠他在記者會裡面特別提到說這個國家語言研究發展中心會處理跨語言別跨領域的研究單一語言但是客家化原住民要回原單位院長部長"},{"start":23233.308,"end":23260.507,"text":"國家語言基本法為了客語發展中心等了7年等到今天的結果又說回到原單位回到客委會去我們白等白耗了白耗了這7年的時間讓我們客語沒辦法去發展嗎既然叫做國家語言研究發展中心那國家語言各個語言都算嘛國家語言的定義就非常清楚所以客語要放進去啊當時告訴我們說客語就可以併進來所以我們等了7年"},{"start":23261.7,"end":23278.653,"text":"現在設置條例通過了,就是說又回到原單位,又繞回去原單位,讓我們客語的發展白白耗費了這7年的時間。所以在這邊,拜託,院長,雖然你不會講客家話,我相信你會支持客家的語言的發展,不要讓它滅絕。"},{"start":23279.854,"end":23299.853,"text":"現在這個設置條例已經通過了趕快把我們刻意的研究發展不要讓這語言來做的凋零的情形發生好不好我們會讓這個研究發展中心將來很健全的發展同時不只在這裡我希望各個學校的教育適合的地區地點都應該把刻意融入成一個教材讓我們刻意繼續傳送下去"},{"start":23301.835,"end":23321.412,"text":"接下來本席要跟院長請教的就是說我們龍科三期的進度因為這個在前年的時候在前行政院長蘇貞昌啟動了龍科三期因為龍科三期前面有一期跟二期這個都非常的成功所以我們相信三期的推動是不會有問題的"},{"start":23322.293,"end":23341.537,"text":"但是當時因為這個土地徵收的範圍沒有確定性也跟地方疏於溝通所以造成了一個很大的反彈那後來呢桃園市政府跟我們柯管局跟本席跟地方慢慢的溝通終於獲得到共識了雖然是徵收土地的範圍面積減少了但是"},{"start":23344.238,"end":23366.046,"text":"大家都樂觀其成所以大概是本席聽到聽到說我們行政院要來做溝通跟協調請問協調了沒有報告委員我們新竹科學人氣管理局跟桃園市政府現在正在我是聽說行政院要出面協調嘛那協調了嗎現在有進度嗎大概什麼時候現在桃園市政府在在劃定重新劃定範圍因為看這樣我已經出來了"},{"start":23374.07,"end":23374.391,"text":"德隆國小"},{"start":23386.311,"end":23386.932,"text":"所以他們正在請教"},{"start":23423.448,"end":23427.951,"text":"所以我有建議兩塊地方啦,都是土地都沒有問題的,希望說能夠獲得我們客管局的這個支持。好,謝謝,謝謝李玉琳委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長,各位官員的備詢。"},{"start":23431.738,"end":23454.279,"text":"接下來登記第三號張宏祿委員改書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入記錄刊登公報。第四位郭育秦委員改書面質詢,請行政院書面答覆,並列入記錄刊登公報。再接下來登記第五位請陳培宇委員質詢。"},{"start":23468.253,"end":23474.167,"text":"謝謝主席,有請行政院長還有教育部長,謝謝。麻煩再請卓院長備詢,教育部備詢。"},{"start":23481.661,"end":23501.045,"text":"陳委員好 院長午安剛剛呂玉玲委員提到108課綱我自己兩個小孩就是108課綱的受益者我要強調108課綱強調一個非常重要精神讓學生有自主探索自主學習的精神而這件事情在我小的時候求學歷程是完全沒有的"},{"start":23501.385,"end":23519.922,"text":"所以我們家的大兒子是一個好愛念書好愛追求分數的小孩臺灣的體制給他這樣的空間而我們家的二兒子非常討厭學校的考卷他喜歡閱讀喜歡唱歌喜歡音樂而臺灣的學校在108課綱從9年一貫教改之後也給了我的第二個兒子自由探索的空間"},{"start":23521.083,"end":23548.061,"text":"確實如同剛剛部長您說的很多老師家長孩子們在現場確實需要您更多的說明跟協助讓他們可以真的走在這個108課綱上我想雖然這不在我本來的題目可是我身為108課綱的受益者我真的要為108課綱多說句話是不是就拜託部長之後有機會您在暑假跟全臺灣的教育局長開會的時候把相關更多的政策或是還有什麼樣說明的機會提供給縣市政府好嗎"},{"start":23549.61,"end":23568.401,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們確實是往那個方向暑假我們會前面來跟家長跟地方的教育主管來溝通這個意見希望能夠讓更多的家長老師跟同學他們能夠了解他的一個用意是良善的"},{"start":23568.82,"end":23593.629,"text":"我最後補充一句話在相關的青少年自己做的民調當中孩子們告訴我們他們不想要回去我們小時候的聯考我想這件事情也要拜託院長跟部長我們要繼續堅持讓孩子有自由探索自由學習的空間謝謝部長您先請回謝謝好那要麻煩院長我們要先來討論關於兒少全法不過因為今天衛福部長沒有來不過我們跟行政院招會過了我想我就跟院長直接討論兒少全法的部分可以嗎"},{"start":23595.19,"end":23615.76,"text":"台灣今年是兒童權利公約施行法國內化10周年的紀念10年前現在的蕭美琴副總統當時也是曾經倡議的議員台灣確實把兒童權利公約施行法國內化之後確實很多各個部會或是各個行政機關對於兒童權利的認識確實增進了很多可是確實在社會複雜樣態多元的情況下"},{"start":23619.002,"end":23619.282,"text":"新的修法內容"},{"start":23642.236,"end":23657.229,"text":"重點應該不外乎在這個舒服照顧還有身體跟精神上的一些暴力甚至性剝削性侵害等等這個權利的維護那這個因為經過多年的延伤現在"},{"start":23659.231,"end":23672.914,"text":"是準備啟動所謂第二階段的研商機制,所以衛福部應該是在這個前提底下去跟各界做更多的研議,希望能夠真的弄做一個比較健全的,剛剛說的那個內容、重點都能夠普遍照顧到的。"},{"start":23673.927,"end":23701.952,"text":"謝謝院長的回應我剛剛特別有強調我把一大串人的名字都唸出來我想再一次跟院長報告專家學者、民間團體、第一線的工作者包含老師、包含社工師、包含心理師包含兒少代表、包含老師、包含家長還有很多的青少年他們願意為自己發聲所以也要拜託行政院透過行政院跟衛福部對話的機制讓衛福部必須知道相關兒少權法在修法的時候必須要把大家的意見納入考量甚至開公聽會跟座談會好嗎?"},{"start":23702.972,"end":23713.223,"text":"好的,謝謝。謝謝報告。兒童的心理智商我們也準備要往下向下扎跟著方向去做。好,謝謝院長。那接下來呢就有請教育部長,謝謝。"},{"start":23715.752,"end":23742.826,"text":"關於在談到兒少權法其實臺灣缺一些工具的可能性那我今天想要快速談一下的是兒少工作證跟兒少教練證這件事情目前在臺灣的現行體制上容我跟院長還有部長報告我們的孩子在學校系統或者是補習班系統如果遇到了犯罪的大人他們的名字是有機會被查得到的在現行的法規之下可是如果孩子們去的是暑假的營隊或者是社區運動俱樂部"},{"start":23744.187,"end":23759.396,"text":"在這些不在我剛說系統裡面每天陪伴著我們的孩子在做音樂運動或者是一般體育運動也好的這些大人他們過往有沒有不當對待孩子的記錄現在家長是查不到的這個部分要先讓部長跟院長知道好"},{"start":23759.776,"end":23786.019,"text":"那可是如果我們有機會來推兒少工作證跟兒少教練證我們也許有機會改善這個困境喔我想要說一下目前呢在兒少法裁罰通報裡面第49條有相關的裁罰平台如果有一個大人例如說他叫陳培宇他犯了兒少法49條我的名字就會被公告在上面那我到底對小孩做了哪些事情呢家長是查得到的可是不在這個系統裡面其實家長是查不到就如同前一陣子"},{"start":23786.94,"end":23805.266,"text":"新竹市是新竹縣就有家長發現在一個下令營營隊當中曾經有一個對孩子不當的大人他竟然還用別的名義在開課他開了一個新的補習班或是他的家人開了一個新的補習班但是那個人還是持續招生那這個事情其實對家長來說是很大的恐懼跟恐慌"},{"start":23806.566,"end":23830.415,"text":"政府對孩子把關機是在哪裏那於是家長只好自食其力大家努力分享社群的訊息可是這樣的恐懼我們其實在法規上是有機會可以幫忙家長解決的我們來看澳洲兒少工作證因為之前就已經跟部長私下先討論過我更明確的說澳洲透過立法去規規範兒少工作證他們是透過警政司法教育"},{"start":23831.455,"end":23833.737,"text":"在我投影片的左手邊,下一張。投影片的左手邊有提到"},{"start":23852.492,"end":23878.706,"text":"哪些人需要呢?例如說你跟孩子們一起工作,包含音樂老師、課外教練、輔導員、舞蹈老師,或是你加入一個正式的輔導計畫,或是你是兒童安全組織的負責人等等等的資料之後可以再提供給教育部。可是右邊他就告訴我們哪一些人你不需要呢?例如說你的工作是偶爾才幫忙小孩作為你角色的附帶部分,可是你跟小孩工作時間非常短,甚至你只是一個客座演講者到學校。"},{"start":23879.246,"end":23902.221,"text":"就好像我以前的工作也是經常到學校去跟孩子們演講所以我也許在澳洲的制度底下我是不需要的可是如果我自己開設一個作文班讀書會長期跟孩子接觸那在澳洲的法規裡面我就是需要的那講到這邊我想要問甚至在這個法規裡面他們還讓家長可以透過一個系統可以查詢到陳培瑜有沒有曾經不當對待兒童的記錄"},{"start":23903.001,"end":23927.697,"text":"所以透過法規跟系統的完整讓家長可以放心知道我可以把孩子送到哪裡去而對於專業的從業人員其實我們也被尊重了因為我們對於兒童的用心跟正確的對待方法也被家長看見所以我們在招生上其實是相對容易的那我覺得在這個兒童意識高漲的年代像這樣的系統或是這樣的法規這樣的證照有沒有在台灣有沒有機會開始推董部長"},{"start":23928.564,"end":23954.56,"text":"跟委員報告,確實委員所提的這是一個非常重要的一個觀念跟價值。我們目前在教育部是對各教育場域不適任的老師是有通報跟查詢的系統。也就是說有涉及到性侵害或者體罰或者霸凌學生這些經調查屬實解聘全部都會放在那個網站。所以我們所有的家長或者一般人要查詢事實上都可以查詢到的。"},{"start":23955.08,"end":23978.286,"text":"部長沒有,教育系統那個網站,部長我跟您確認一下,教育系統那個網站一般家長是不能查的,除非在我前一次的跟衛福部的開會裡面,我要求衛福部要回過頭來跟教育部要那個資料,教育部底下所屬還有地方政府所屬的學校,必須要把資料灌回給衛福部的那個兒少法裁罰系統第49條,家長才可以查得到,這個跟部長您報告一下。好,繼續,謝謝。"},{"start":23980.187,"end":23988.365,"text":"所以如果是這樣部長你也覺得可行相關的證照系統或者是課程內容或是如何有完備的法規資源我們可不可以一起來研究跟討論"},{"start":23989.972,"end":24016.107,"text":"謝謝跟委員報告我目前確實在這個法令上還沒有是還沒有形成一個政策但是我們會從這一個今年暑假事實上我們提出就開始對小孩子有喜多的這些的比如說戶外的這個體育休閒的這些活動溜滑冰啊溜冰啊或者各方面的一些運動的一些項目包括學校的喜多的這些暑期的一些運動團隊我們開始"},{"start":24019.008,"end":24039.801,"text":"會屬下至少我們會規劃有2到3個這個研習營就是希望這些擔任短期這個運動或者各項的才藝的一個指導老師能夠對兒童的權益各方面能夠有一個初步的了解那當然未來我們希望朝一個制度上來就呼應這個委員"},{"start":24041.242,"end":24070.762,"text":"謝謝部長您的回應您剛剛講到體育署那我就跟您分享在2021年當年有一個臺中的柔道小孩被教練摔死了不知道部長您記不記得這個事情到現在我都不願意再提起這麼悲傷的事情因為在當時監察院的糾正底下體育署做出了回應增加一個一小時的課程那您剛剛說的我們辦公室尤其要求體育署非常多的單向協會或者是不再單向協會這些社區運動俱樂部這些每天跟孩子們在一起的大人"},{"start":24070.862,"end":24071.102,"text":"國體法10之一"},{"start":24100.313,"end":24125.228,"text":"我們增修了這個條文可不可以在相關條文裡面呢把相關的課程內容施資人才資料庫或者是相關的懲罰機制相關的配套措施都在國體法裡面把它修訂完成不知道部長您覺得我們有沒有機會來進一步討論這個法條的修正謝謝委員的提醒事實上我們也在朝那個方向在努力好那我們一起努力好謝謝部長謝謝好那"},{"start":24126.377,"end":24141.82,"text":"嗯接下來就部長先請回好了謝謝那院長接下來想要跟您討論一件事情我不是很確定可不可行但是我自己心裡面是有這樣的願望也是符合非常多家長的想像我們知道行政院轄下有一個兒少權益推動小組而且是三個月"},{"start":24142.641,"end":24168.572,"text":"三個月召開一次一年至少召開四次那每一次提出的很多問題呢其實必須要有很多跨部會的討論機制去促成很多兒少權益小組裡面提出來的討論但是我們在過往的很多開會會議記錄當中發現很多事情一旦涉及跨部會他就很容易權責劃分不明或者是相關的工作業務分不清楚有沒有機會來提高這個兒少權益推動小組召集人的位階"},{"start":24169.292,"end":24169.573,"text":"院長您覺得呢?"},{"start":24185.278,"end":24207.658,"text":"謝謝委員陳委員一直都是一個大家敬重的親子教育專家所以你對這些不當的這個對待等等的行為啊絕對是無法忍受這個我們是同樣立場那至於行政院裡面這個兒童兒少權益的小組他原來就是政務委員來擔任我們現在我們邀請的政務委員都各有專長我想我可以跟教育的跟"},{"start":24208.198,"end":24208.478,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":24226.471,"end":24238.01,"text":"好,謝謝院長。其實如果問我私心,最希望有兒少不淡,我不會亂許願這樣。我們先來把相關部會的權責劃分清楚,然後可以做的事情做得更多更好。那最後一個要跟院長您討論的是這個。"},{"start":24241.637,"end":24260.043,"text":"這是賴清德總統的政見關於體育署升格成體育運動發展部我們辦公室一直很關心體育現場的很多狀況不管是透過運動教練、透過選手、透過學生、透過家長之前體育署辦了兩場相關的升格座談會我們辦公室的助理也有前去參加"},{"start":24260.783,"end":24287.816,"text":"在相關的報告裡面我們看到好像是把現在體育署的組織整個往上拉而已但是我們自己在想應該不是組織往上拉就沒事了而是整個體育部的政策裡面如何把對於兒少體育的政策放進政策思考當中我舉一個例子臺灣過往的孩子們如果想要休息體育或者是變成體育專家可能我們會把孩子送進體育班但是因為體育班的升學系統一直到現在都還是有很多的問題我們日後再討論"},{"start":24289.557,"end":24317.094,"text":"所以現在很多家長寧可把孩子送到所謂社區運動俱樂部但是自建俱樂部的想法其實可能不在過往體育署的分組脈絡當中我只是舉其中一個例子在這個時代的氛圍底下體育署的升格有沒有辦法呼應新時代的需求或者是新的時代下大家對於兒少體育政策的需求對於長者體育運動的需求或者是整個社會對於運動體育發展的需求這邊是要請部長還是院長回答"},{"start":24317.594,"end":24335.272,"text":"我可以講一下體育部的身格他只是運動普及跟全民運動的第一支箭而已重點在他升級之後他規劃出來的整個政策目標以及他能夠發展出來的各種的功能那現在體育署在部裡面現在體育署的工作如何"},{"start":24336.147,"end":24362.671,"text":"轉嫁到這個未來的體育布局這個是現在在做一些這個界面上的轉嫁也希望這個組織法能夠經過大院的協助能夠通過我們樂見其成那因為我時間有限我就快速說一下就是我剛剛說的升格裡面不管是經費或者是位階源的增加如何符合社會的期待我相信是大家的期待應該也是賴總統當時政見的期待也是院長你剛剛說法還有把更多兒少體育政策一起一起納入作為政策思考的主體好嗎"},{"start":24363.427,"end":24387.157,"text":"好的好我最後有時間有限我再問一個我們之前跟農業部討論為了協助去化臺灣2025年紐西蘭關稅貿易協定之後進來牛乳進來之後免關稅臺灣的牛乳怎麼辦我們談到了血統乳但是目前我們一直沒有看到相關進度不知道院長您這邊知道相關進度嗎我們預計9月開始就會每週有兩天提供他保久乳或是鮮乳這個是院長您確定"},{"start":24397.036,"end":24399.197,"text":"接下來登記第6號吳麗華委員第7號林怡瑾委員第8號許志傑委員第9號賴慧元委員"},{"start":24417.796,"end":24440.984,"text":"均以質詢均以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報。在接下來我們請登記第10號鄭振前委員質詢。謝主席,我想請一下主院長。麻煩再請主院長備詢。"},{"start":24451.336,"end":24465.565,"text":"院長好,早上在經濟組那個質詢的時候你有特別提到說新竹市其實確實是很適合發展AI生態園區的一個首選之地。那我在想說當新竹要發展AI生態園區"},{"start":24468.386,"end":24495.574,"text":"甚至於說我跟竹科管理局王局長也曾經聊過他也覺得說其實新竹這邊其實也很適合成立半導體生態鏈園區那這個部分其實就是說當科學園區在為台積電找土地的時候那其實都沒有想到協力廠商也有土地商的需求所以導致整個大新竹地區的時候有很多農地都變成了違建工廠這樣的一個情況"},{"start":24496.714,"end":24519.386,"text":"所以說我們事實上希望說賴政府在推動桃竹苗大細股計畫的時候我們確實很希望能夠一併解決剛剛提到的這些問題所以我在這邊也特別提到那個在新竹市這邊有一個竹科S2期的一個都市計畫那早上的時候院長有特別提到說這個部分"},{"start":24520.146,"end":24535.722,"text":"是國科會這邊正在整合的部分。我想請教一下院長目前這個部分進度如何?那新竹市政府主張的這個竹科X二期的部分,都市計畫的部分有沒有可能納入桃竹苗大細股計畫當中?"},{"start":24538.753,"end":24566.102,"text":"報告委員我們現在正在跟新竹市政府在合作那目前我們的X基地第一棟的這個建築已經將近完工那看起來是招商的狀況非常的好所以市政府也有信心說如果我們要支持市政府來進行X計畫第二期的話我們提出來這是在行政院已經通過這是一個重大"},{"start":24566.752,"end":24568.293,"text":"謝謝主委那我想接下來我再問一下院長"},{"start":24596.61,"end":24606.716,"text":"就是你知道說竹竹苗地區高中的一個擴增班的計畫你知道這個項目嗎請委員指教鄭部長可以支援一下齁"},{"start":24607.981,"end":24635.147,"text":"在今年1月8號的時候就選前一個禮拜的時候當時的行政院副院長鄭文燦特別到了竹科實驗高中去針對了一個大新竹地區高級中等學校擴增班級數政策的一個部分去做了一個說明當時包括了陽文科縣長、高鴻安市長、中東景縣長還有竹北市長、鄭朝芳市長都到了現場"},{"start":24636.207,"end":24662.626,"text":"表示這個事情確實大家都非常的關注然後竹竹苗的五位立委全數到齊在選前一個禮拜的時候大家都集中到了竹科、時中這邊來針對這個部分那我想問一下目前行政院對於這個部分的計畫執行到什麼程度因為1月15號之後選後其實各地方政府都趕快把資料送上去"},{"start":24663.206,"end":24676.451,"text":"送上去送到教育部這邊的時候呢那他也提到行政院這裡來那行政院這邊隔了這麼多個月之後不知道目前對於這項政策是不是要如時如期的去落實它"},{"start":24678.987,"end":24699.024,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員關心我們竹科確實這個學生人口數的一個增加那麼我們今年在113學年度9月也就是9月我們已經對這個國立的學校先增加了五班合定增加五班也就是說國立科學時鐘增加兩班"},{"start":24700.285,"end":24729.324,"text":"然後新竹高中一班、竹南高中一班這個部分因為113年度國立高中要增班的部分是第一步除了這個部分的時候各地方政府都提出了很多的需求新竹市這邊提到在到113年學年度到116年度至少要增加49班那對於這樣的一個部分的時候我們教育部這邊怎麼回因為到目前為止行政院的態度還沒有很清楚出來"},{"start":24730.064,"end":24752.518,"text":"我們希望這個部分光靠教育部也許沒有辦法解決當地的一個需求所以我們希望行政院長這邊的時候能夠大力支持這個在今年1月8號就是當時的行政院副院長所開出來的支票在選前開這樣的支票就顯然就知道說地方有多麼的一個需求"},{"start":24753.351,"end":24781.159,"text":"除了教育部在目前業務上之外國科會也在評估就實驗中學跟完全中學來提出一個增建校舍的新的計畫那這個部分我想我們就按照它的人口成長跟地區我們是不是有一個考量用一個專案的經費來挹注那這個部分請國科會提出詳細的說明配合教育部的政策所以到時候可以有一個專案的一個預算補助對不對希望朝這個方向去做"},{"start":24782.159,"end":24803.398,"text":"那我在想這就是我們現在地方上非常需要的一個部分。那麼也希望院長在這個部分能夠大力去支持。因為針對竹竹苗地區高中闊校增班的相關的問題是非常的嚴峻。我們看到那個整個人口那個分布圖的時候就是所有的"},{"start":24804.591,"end":24806.553,"text":"國客會提出評估那麼跟教育部的政策來契合"},{"start":24825.313,"end":24853.065,"text":"謝謝院長那接下來的時候我想問一下就是之前的時候就是也有委員提到就是有關於就是短期營隊的負責人因為之前確實在新竹地方發生了一個這樣的事情一個短期營隊的負責人性侵而且被判刑了4月份被判刑確定被判刑他也許會再上訴可是呢這個事情造成的地方很大的一個恐慌恐慌的點在哪裡因為他繼續招生"},{"start":24854.484,"end":24882.928,"text":"我想問一下院長對於這樣的短期營隊的時候我們是不是可以立法來進行管理我們現在對於這種不當行為啦不當的處處面對的行為我們都要列管註記這些不當行為人讓他們沒有辦法再繼續從事類似的工作而來對其他的人員或小孩造成這個侵害我們會加重列管註記的方式"},{"start":24883.291,"end":24896.753,"text":"所以列管登記之外的時候,本席在這邊是不是可以主張我們對短期營隊的部分是不是可以採取報備制,讓家長安心,否則他們不曉得他們參加的營隊到底會是什麼樣子的一個營隊?"},{"start":24900.039,"end":24914.377,"text":"現在的方式是不是夠嚴謹?我想跟委員報告,確實委員所提的這個是我們在學校裡邊有很多他要在短期的寒暑假的這些營隊他事實上都要經過地方縣市教育局裡邊報備核准的"},{"start":24914.938,"end":24936.283,"text":"但是屬於民間自己這個招攬的這一個部分。理解,所以這就是短期嘛。所以我在想說對於家長來講他們其實參加的營隊的時候不一定是能夠都是目前的法規可以管得到的補習班。這些短期營隊的時候我們是不是可以修法對於這些兒少有更多的一個保障。"},{"start":24937.584,"end":24939.526,"text":"接下來我想請教一下我們國科會的吳主委。"},{"start":24977.334,"end":24995.224,"text":"之前你在清華大學擔任副校長的時候,曾經接待過一個海峽研究院的機制。當時你在回應委員職訓的時候,你有提到說你很委屈,你可以稍微簡單做個說明?"},{"start":24998.305,"end":25003.508,"text":"所以你去接待之後你就被打成了一個中共在台的代理人這樣子的扣一個這樣的紅帽子"},{"start":25016.617,"end":25036.674,"text":"說實話我也覺得你很委屈所以我也幫你說話在上一屆當中的時候呢因為清大被扣紅帽的這個事情就是你被扣紅帽的這個事情我跟蘇貞昌院長當時行政院長有一個非常不愉快的一個對話因為當我在質詢這樣的事情的時候他不斷的說我很吵"},{"start":25038.656,"end":25049.967,"text":"說我是一個怎麼樣子一堆亂七八糟的那個說法都出來然後吵得很兇其實為了你這邊你是現在我們的一個閣員那我想特別強調一個點就是說"},{"start":25052.33,"end":25070.283,"text":"這個部分其實也看得出來我們其實在做國會改革當中的時候其實有一些合理性跟正當性的。因為我想問一下就是院長對於在被詢的時候然後不斷的在質疑質詢的人說你很吵然後講一些亂七八糟的話你覺得這樣子適當嗎?"},{"start":25072.681,"end":25097.341,"text":"報告委員我說過我再強調一下我說質詢就像一片鏡子一樣你所看到的我就是我看到的你所以我們很理性冷靜的來討論事情今天委員就能知道當時的吳主委是有機會讓他說明之後就知道當時的吳主委是沒有任何的值得讓我們去懷疑的你講的方式其實我要跟你講一下當我們在質詢前院長蘇貞昌的時候他跟你的反應是完全不一樣的"},{"start":25098.021,"end":25123.673,"text":"他就開始撇撇腳然後就開始講一些亂七八糟的事情很多委員都有類似的經驗那我覺得因為你也很理性我們在做這樣的對話所以我只是要特別強調就是當時我為了現在的國科會主委曾經跟前院長發生一個相當嚴重的一個爭執就是因為我也覺得你們被抹紅所以我們希望在整個所有的國會改革過程當中的時候能夠更順暢"},{"start":25125.194,"end":25140.868,"text":"那我接下來想再問一下國科會主委吳主委你特別提到了一個主權AI這件事情那最近其實大家都非常的關心因為半導體是台灣的護國神山所以是也對台灣的經濟有很大的一個貢獻那麼現在再加上AI"},{"start":25142.79,"end":25156.504,"text":"台灣在AI的硬體設備當中的時候呢在第一波就踩上了全球AI的高速列車對不對那您特別提到說台灣需要建立主權AI你可以把這個部分做一個簡單的一個說明跟描述"},{"start":25157.284,"end":25178.882,"text":"我講主權AI的觀念主要是因為如果我們要使用AI當作工具來解決我們國內各行各業甚至包含到政府機構的這些應用的話我們需要第一要訓練自己的資料來訓練這些AI的模型來解決問題我們不希望使用到錯誤的訓練資料"},{"start":25180.363,"end":25208.501,"text":"那第二呢我們使用的時候我們的資料非常寶貴國內的資料希望能夠建置在臺灣的資料中心那我們現在要怎麼做政府要扮演什麼樣子的一個角色我們政府會來協助帶領我們的國內的產業一起來開發AI的這個資料中心超級電腦甚至我們AI的這個應用服務的系統"},{"start":25210.683,"end":25220.978,"text":"你講這個部分我理解不過我覺得我看到英國最近那個Totals Media它所做的一個那個全球的一個AI"},{"start":25222.125,"end":25251.834,"text":"臨時評鑑臨時評鑑臨時評鑑臨時評鑑臨時評鑑臨時評鑑臨時評鑑臨時評鑑"},{"start":25252.034,"end":25268.826,"text":"所以政府的角色在整個AI的發展過程當中目前看起來似乎是走在企業之後而不是在帶領企業往前走所以針對這個部分的時候除了這邊要不要多做一個說明或者是院長這邊要不要做一個說明我們接下來要怎麼去做"},{"start":25269.546,"end":25288.571,"text":"報告委員這樣講不是很正確。我們的硬體,我們AI的半導體以及雲端設備的硬體是全世界第一。但是我剛剛講的AI應用的系統的確是我們接下來必須要快速發展的。這個目前我們還有在努力。"},{"start":25290.469,"end":25313.946,"text":"所以你講這個部分我完全了解就台灣的高科技的製造業就全球很厲害在這一波AI當中的時候我們也踩到了全球的第一波當中可是AI的發展的時候它不是製造業的概念其實我們可能更需要的其實是一個AI的一個服務業所以我這邊要講的狀態其實說我們政府是不是除了"},{"start":25314.747,"end":25315.027,"text":"﹚完整會議"},{"start":25333.969,"end":25334.81,"text":"我們目前的方向的確是要發展"},{"start":25373.406,"end":25374.426,"text":"接下來登記第11號書巧會委員﹚"},{"start":25384.003,"end":25394.727,"text":"之質詢以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入記錄,刊登公報。在接下來請登記第12號林倩儀委員,請質詢。謝謝主席,有請院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":25420.032,"end":25437.39,"text":"委員長好。本席今天要跟您來探討幾個議題。第一個是有關於博愛座的問題。所以博愛座在這些年來,大眾的運輸系統的博愛座衝突感覺好像越演越烈。那我們知道今天早上又有一則新聞。"},{"start":25440.774,"end":25450.888,"text":"檢視了一下其中一個原因是網路平台不斷出現一些言語的衝突,然後還有肢體的衝突等文字,然後再包括照片跟側錄影片的短片的上傳。"},{"start":25452.09,"end":25452.83,"text":"這是6月18日在北捷發生的"},{"start":25486.443,"end":25487.968,"text":"另外在6月19號集中的505公車"},{"start":25490.453,"end":25517.206,"text":"還有6月29日也就是今天我們新聞看到的這個高潔那這樣不愛坐的爭議感覺好像政府聽到了因為衛福部在6月28日預告了要提出修正身心障礙者權益保障法第53條那要把不愛坐改名為優先席那交通部也表示說要配合那但是將不愛坐改成優先席那整個衝突就會改善嗎?您的看法"},{"start":25518.777,"end":25540.656,"text":"是的委員改名也許只是一個讓社會更重視討論這個問題的開始而已它事實上是能夠完全改善這個現象應該不是那麼快的倒是利用這樣的一個改名的討論讓大家對於這個不愛做它到底真正的意義是什麼它是不愛做或者是優先做"},{"start":25541.323,"end":25547.049,"text":"好的,謝謝院長的這張說明。至少我們提醒了大家要針對這個議題來做一些討論。那接下來是不是可以請教育部跟文化部,我們來一起討論一下這個議題。"},{"start":25564.946,"end":25579.215,"text":"那現在似乎要將這個優先座,不愛座改名成優先座,感覺好像是日本的用詞。那我們如果回溯英文的本詞priority seats來避免爭議,但是這是不是成效就會馬上立竿見影呢?"},{"start":25580.536,"end":25602.194,"text":"本席認為問題有的時候不是在法條跟名稱的定義,看起來好像是衛福部、交通部的問題。本席認為教育部跟文化部責無旁貸。我們教育部有沒有可能在現階段這樣整個社會的情緒教育還有倫理教育、道德教育、品德教育多一點著墨。"},{"start":25602.774,"end":25620.901,"text":"那文化部有沒有可能在這樣子概念上的宣導我們可不可以本朱善意來對社會做相關的這個宣導是不是可以在這個裡面有更多的一些可能性讓這樣一個似乎本來本於善意的這樣子一個座位"},{"start":25621.823,"end":25645.103,"text":"能夠透過兩個大會能夠有比較更積極而且更本朱本質的一個可能性那可不可以請用簡短的30秒鐘回答謝謝委員的指正我想我非常同意委員剛才所提的老屋老以及人之老幼屋幼以及人之幼這事實上就是我們在許多學校教育裡面從生活"},{"start":25645.503,"end":25645.623,"text":"是的,謝謝部長。"},{"start":25671.684,"end":25679.029,"text":"謝謝委員提出這個問題因為我來之後我一直覺得文化不只是文化產業其實我覺得最重要的文化是生活那您剛剛談到的就是生活那我來之後這個短短一個月我會跟很多部會包括"},{"start":25697.242,"end":25697.482,"text":"謝謝兩位部長"},{"start":25724.641,"end":25732.199,"text":"接下來因為今天院長在這邊本席有一些為私立學校做的一些請命"},{"start":25734.349,"end":25758.823,"text":"當然這個是一個針對未來的一個政策。但是我這邊有幾點,院長可以先看PPT。本席現在在私立院校教書20幾年,非常了解私立院校老師跟學生的一些需求。所以這幾年碰到私校的很多問題。私校的退場以及私校老師的權益,我想現在來處理是刻不容緩。"},{"start":25759.844,"end":25784.659,"text":"所以本席在這邊要簡單的敘述幾件事情那這個部分本席有跟這個部長這邊做了一些溝通所以這邊也是讓這個院長這邊來了解關於部分私立學校的老師在經驗巧合的這個狀況下面臨想要轉校跳槽可是會被學校索取違約金或賠償金有的時候因為年資的長短那個金額會非常大這個部分"},{"start":25785.82,"end":25801.165,"text":"教育部之前有談到有關於契約的這個問題那是不是可以請院長這邊來針對這個部分做更深入一點的這個瞭解那第二個部分是今年院長應該也知道公教在這個薪資的部分調了4%"},{"start":25802.285,"end":25830.007,"text":"但是今年在6月份那個全國教師公會他也提出來有一些私立學校針對這個部分好像沒有依照規定這邊來做比照跟調整是不是可以請教育部這邊也做一個清查那也請院長這邊是不是可以幫我們多了解跟注意那第三個部分這個是確實所碰到的問題那個在這個西蘭山莊有一個軍公教的優惠但是他規定這個教師一定要是公立學校"},{"start":25830.447,"end":25857.281,"text":"那這個感覺上很不合理一個優惠的公告卻造成公私立老師的一個被大小眼的對待那這又是政府單位的所以有點感覺政府認同並帶頭示範公立學校老師才能夠被理喻私立學校老師不在此列那這個我們也進行溝通是不是請院長這邊也可以幫我們這個回應一下這一個狀況那另外最後面對這個私立學校少子化的壓力那許多老師必須要扛起業績"},{"start":25858.7,"end":25879.12,"text":"但是現在很多私校被扶倒然後被退了又被扶了就倒那常常被定義說他該倒就要讓他倒我是覺得是不是政府應該有多一點的同理心那有一些特色體質很好的私校期望他的校友團體個人都有機會來救這個學校但是"},{"start":25880.188,"end":25898.399,"text":"有一些好意竟然會被視為為禿鷹來開後門喔那這個部分本席也很不了解所以是不是可以有機會透過透明公開的一個公告徵求來讓一些私校真的好的私校不是因為很奇怪的這個原因要倒的私校那能夠"},{"start":25899.48,"end":25919.189,"text":"﹗"},{"start":25919.349,"end":25934.661,"text":"施校要退場被轉學的學生常常都會因此而就結束了學業而沒有畢業所以這個部分是不是也可以請院長瞭解一下在這個部分學生的狀況"},{"start":25935.862,"end":25959.955,"text":"所以諸如此類其實好多細節那真的目前私校的問題是跟時間在賽跑然後很希望教育部能夠盡速第一個召開全國性的會議針對現在的高教也好整個的教育聽取大家的意見第二個那私校經常宣導的都是原鄉跟偏鄉那是不是能夠進入原鄉跟偏鄉去做相關的這個會議跟宣導"},{"start":25962.196,"end":25967.581,"text":"首先我們在去年私立大山院校教師約聘的這個注意事項裡面就很明白的宰明了離職預告期間跟離職違約金要符合一般法律的規定而且不能"},{"start":25985.998,"end":26010.145,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":26016.447,"end":26032.754,"text":"謝謝院長。所以本席以上所提的幾個問題是不是可以請這個主管機關等於一個善意跟同理的心情來考量教師學生還有這些團體的一個心境,然後更積極的一個處理跟作為,好嗎?好的"},{"start":26034.076,"end":26058.294,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來剛這個有一點關係的是因為現在學校可能有因為少子化的這個少子女化的狀況所以我們有很多這個有關於國際生或者是國際勞工的一個相關計畫那本席在這邊有知道2030年那教育部打算收21萬的國際學生那要投入52億元那本席在這邊有一個請命是不是可以將這52億元"},{"start":26060.896,"end":26084.616,"text":"﹚國會議員﹚"},{"start":26084.676,"end":26094.336,"text":"本席想要為臺灣的學生請命所以是不是相關的這個資源能夠至少減半留一些在臺灣的本席剛才所提到的團體"},{"start":26097.326,"end":26121.434,"text":"跟委員報告是我們非常清楚臺灣的教育資源當然是優先用來照顧我們自己本地的這個青少年新世代的年輕人這些學生包含原住民學生的一個部長您其實在我先前提到原住民在高科技這一塊那部裡面現在也有一些回應那我們目前在試做我相信這樣的推動大概要大家一起來努力那至於這個國際生這個部分"},{"start":26122.875,"end":26123.335,"text":"謝謝委員提醒跟委員報告一句話"},{"start":26147.242,"end":26150.003,"text":"謝謝院長還有部長那重點就是不要忘了台灣還有很多的學生需要我們更多的教育資源"},{"start":26172.968,"end":26196.276,"text":"好謝謝那接下來這是老調重提了吼那我想這是一件大家都有共識的事情吼那這個本席在一開在上個會期其實也提到了吼呃關於這個運動發展部的問題那運動發展部我想這個共識是也是賴總統的一個政策吼那我們要把運動發展部給設立那體育署也希望他或許在這個本質上"},{"start":26196.856,"end":26196.956,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":26223.251,"end":26223.271,"text":"當然這個"},{"start":26247.771,"end":26265.298,"text":"我們過去國民體育法的改變已經就單項的結構做了初步的調整但我知道還有一些問題存在我們希望未來體育署升格之後體育部有更大的組織能力有更大的一些政策的指導能夠將這個各單項協會朝更健全的發展方向"},{"start":26269.255,"end":26279.92,"text":"謝謝院長。所以最重要就是本株初衷,不要再讓選手受到委屈,然後讓全民運動能夠正常發展。謝謝部長。最後是不是可以請一下文化部長。"},{"start":26284.232,"end":26303.641,"text":"謝謝不知道這個院長知不知道本席是原住民所以我對原住民的相關事務都非常的重視所以現在在原住民這個部分要成立這個原住民的表演藝術的國家級的表演藝術團隊那這所謂國家級本席這邊再跟您提醒一下因為本席也是表演藝術的專業"},{"start":26304.941,"end":26324.046,"text":"所以在先前也有跟這個文化部這邊來做相關的這個討論所以是不是文化部希望您能夠承諾在原住民的表演藝術第一必須要達到所謂的國家級第二不要將所有原住民的事物都丟回給所謂的原住民的相關單位不知道是不是可以承諾這兩點"},{"start":26346.264,"end":26350.866,"text":"謝謝林憲熙委員的質詢。也謝謝卓院長的備詢。謝謝。"},{"start":26358.871,"end":26361.078,"text":"接下來我們請登記13號的葉元之委員質詢。"},{"start":26392.33,"end":26399.919,"text":"主席好,麻煩請卓榮泰院長還有文化部部長麻煩再請卓院長備詢文化部備詢"},{"start":26407.622,"end":26424.852,"text":"院長好部長好先跟請教一下因為先上禮拜所謂的有中共介入到臺灣的政論節目這事情吵得非常的熱昨天我看到陸委會副主委梁文傑他說找不到爆料者看起來好像這件事情要石沉大海"},{"start":26425.732,"end":26454.651,"text":"那我覺得非常遺憾我希望說院長部長可以拿出這個查案的精神把這個事情查出來齁我先講一個網路的這個笑話給院長聽有一個唐生有一個網路笑話齁唐生剛下飛機就有記者問他對陪酒小姐的看法唐生說臺北有小姐然後結果第二天媒體的標題是說唐生一到臺北馬上問臺北有小姐嗎完全是標題殺人"},{"start":26455.972,"end":26475.059,"text":"後來隔天唐森生氣了記者又問他陪酒小姐的事唐森說然後唐森就說我不會再理你隔天標題是說唐森一怒為紅顏那我個人認為今天這個中共所謂的中共介入台灣政治節目這個事情很有可能就跟我剛剛講的那個網路笑話很像"},{"start":26475.859,"end":26496.518,"text":"一個不知名的消息來源做了一個爆料記者跑去跟電視台求證電視台說這個只需烏有一無所知結果隔天電視台可以寫這麼大篇的新聞出來然後結果我們的府院黨啊民進黨府院黨馬上就說啊這確有此事此事"},{"start":26497.848,"end":26521.533,"text":"那請問一下,確有此事查得怎麼樣?因為梁文傑陸委會副主委是推給文化部跟NCC,剛好我們今天教文組文化部有來,我想問一下文化部長,請問一下這個事情查得怎麼樣?好,對我們來講,我們的職權所在,我們只能現在查得怎麼樣?已經一個禮拜了。我們的職權,我們也不可能有那個"},{"start":26522.753,"end":26550.125,"text":"你的職權查得怎麼樣?目前我們只能發文給當初邀請他的單位。你只有發文而已喔?這麼嚴重的事情耶!中共都介入到我們媒體了,這麼嚴重的事情你只有發文而已喔?文化部不把我們台灣國安當一回事耶。文化部也不是個調查人。可是因為各個機關都要分頭去查嘛。現在只有你在我問你,只有你的態度是我只有發文。"},{"start":26551.428,"end":26580.689,"text":"那感覺好像這個事情也沒有很嚴重嗎?沒有很嚴重?院長這樣態度可以嗎?如果是涉到國家安全或牽涉到單色媒體當然嚴重但是任何一件事情都必須要去切切的掌握到資訊了解到真相很緊急的事情馬上就處理了結果你現在部長只發文還公文履行欸文化部也好或其他單位也好第一個只能依法行政做自己業內該做的事情"},{"start":26581.289,"end":26596.247,"text":"那除了文化部的發文之外,其他單位有沒有進一步的了解,這個我們要統合。院長,這事情這麼嚴重,國安問題,結果你的態度是說文化部就發文,其他也要了解,你院長好像也無所謂的樣子。我不禁想到幾年前有一個王立強事件。"},{"start":26600.168,"end":26613.472,"text":"那時候2019年的時候王立強在澳洲尋求政治庇護吧自己講的跟中共版的007一樣說他運用龐大資源介入台灣選舉還幫助我們韓國瑜選高雄市長然後隔年呢又一堆錢又要影響我們總統大選然後結果"},{"start":26615.433,"end":26637.444,"text":"那當時蔡英文總統說一定要查還派人到澳洲去了解也是一樣府院黨都把這個事情當一回事甚至於把王立強咬出來的在台灣的向心夫婦都抓起來了限制出境就查了半天向心夫婦完全無罪已經離開了王立強呢澳洲政府說你要申請庇護不可能因為你這個詐騙犯把他遣返了"},{"start":26638.337,"end":26658.606,"text":"結果當時把王立強很當一回事的那些民進黨高官有沒有一個人出來道歉說不好意思我誤信了詐騙犯那今天這個事情對中共介入這段節目如果有非常可惡可是我現在看到的是說傳過水無痕前幾天把他罵成這樣現在文化部的態度是說我發公文了"},{"start":26659.306,"end":26673.879,"text":"院長態度是說相關機關會去查。什麼時候會查出來結果?要依法行政去調解。這個事情很嚴重。我不希望看到這個事情跟王立強事件一樣傳過水無痕。尤其是被自由時報指涉的那家電視台。"},{"start":26675.34,"end":26693.635,"text":"主持人已經連續好幾集在致卿了啦也把所有因為那個是假日的那個他們被指涉是假日錄影的嘛所有的人來錄影的影帶都提供給相關單位了所以要查一定可以查拜託給國人一個交代不要像王立強事件一樣操作完了"},{"start":26694.715,"end":26722.557,"text":"我紅完了,傳過水無痕,院長可以嗎?我不予設立場,但是我希望院長給國人一個交代。文化部既然已經有發文或是相關的這個調查,應該把這個調查結果整理之後啊,跟社會公佈。我也很希望,這件事情是沒有的。到底是那個媒體隨便亂爆料,傷害到別人名譽。現在被指涉的人都一直致親,結果指控別人好像沒事一樣,跟唐森一樣啊。"},{"start":26723.698,"end":26734.651,"text":"下飛機被問有沒有裴友小姐就變成說好像他對裴友小姐很有興趣啊我們現在是可以是這樣子嗎?被罵的人要出來致親指控別人可以隨便講話然後又牽涉到國安結果政府無所謂"},{"start":26736.943,"end":26758.604,"text":"這不是我們政府的態度吧,院長我希望文化部跟其他單位已經在調查了,如果會診出來以後清楚的向大家報告有沒有這件事我也很希望沒有這樣的事情表示我們的媒體智力是非常完善的如果沒有為什麼民進黨立委可以去指控人家為什麼那時候陸委會說卻有歧視對不對,而且院長今天"},{"start":26759.861,"end":26779.491,"text":"委員會副主委講說找不到消息來源明明自由時報就有報導一個資深媒體人啊不能叫自由時報把資深媒體人講出來是誰嗎他一定會說不好意思我不提供消息來源問題是牽涉國安何等重要啊你媒體也有社會責任為了國安你不能夠交出消息來源嗎所以只是要不要交的問題嘛"},{"start":26780.796,"end":26793.565,"text":"所以院長拿出道德勇氣給國內一個交代不要讓大家都好像變成跟唐僧一樣好不好我再進一步瞭解什麼時候可以給大家答案瞭解之後馬上跟委員報告要瞭解多久"},{"start":26794.948,"end":26822.009,"text":"會盡快了解,因為這個不是很難的事情。對嘛,不是,一個禮拜可不可以?因為這個事情社會動盪啊,我們希望國家可以和諧。如果他後面沒有講的,如果沒有很牽扯複雜的情節的話,那一個禮拜應該是足以了解的事情。一點都不複雜啊,一點都不複雜啊。對,如果沒有的話,一個禮拜可以...一個禮拜告訴大家這個事情到底是真的,假的,然後如果是假的,那陸委會說有,那為什麼亂講,然後相關的責任,查清楚,我們台灣不要變成這樣,一直在國內找敵人。"},{"start":26824.011,"end":26840.85,"text":"總統院長是要團結臺灣,不是對立臺灣。好不好,我們都與人為善,好不好,不要這樣找敵人。因為教文組,我要跟院長討論幾個教育的議題。其實我在教育文化我就關心幾個議題,比如說108課綱。"},{"start":26843.598,"end":26872.767,"text":"比如說校園安全還有雙語教育或是母語教育推廣等等很多教育議題我都會推廣我都非常關心還有高齡教育等等但是因為今天也沒有太多時間我就抓兩個議題跟院長討論那有的跟部長也講過但是因為有些事情我覺得需要讓院長知道所以今天特別來講我先引用諾貝爾經濟學獎得主海耶克通往奴役之路這本書裡面有一句話他說通往地獄的路都是由善意鋪陳的這是他講的"},{"start":26873.683,"end":26890.579,"text":"那我當然知道很多教育政策大家都是出於善意我們不希望說這個善意呢讓我們的新興學子們呢通往地獄如果用白話文講就是有的時候理想很豐滿現實很骨感特別我覺得這句話很適用在108課綱上面"},{"start":26893.197,"end":26904.749,"text":"這是108課綱所期待的學生樣態,要自主行動、社會參與、溝通、互動。然後後面又列了非常多像他的分項的素養。那院長您認同108課綱所期待的學生樣態嗎?應該是認同吧?"},{"start":26908.305,"end":26936.798,"text":"就像委員說的他希望是大家在自己的學習歷程清楚而且能夠展現自己的特色而且能夠被激發出潛力原意當然是這樣子理想理想但是理想要把它落實但是這幾年108課綱自從實施以來每一年專家學者老師學生都提出各項各樣的檢討我沒有看到教育部有根據實施的落差理想與現實落差有做任何調整所以今天特別來跟院長講"},{"start":26938.038,"end":26961.841,"text":"如果說大家認同說這需要調整的話應該要拿出行動力出來而不是說每一年都在檢討一樣的事情像我今天待會要講的東西去年也有人講過前年也有人講過但是從來沒有人去做調整那118課綱現在就要訂定了嘛所以在訂定118課綱的時候有沒有可能把108課綱大家覺得比較有缺失部分做一些整理我先來簡述一下108課綱問題"},{"start":26963.459,"end":26979.201,"text":"很多老師,很多老師跟我講說,他說因為現在義媽課剛剛就是把必修課減少變成要選修課嘛,大概減少四分之一的必修課。所以老師必須要去準備選修課。第一個壓力變大,但是工作時數沒有減少。第二,很多學生"},{"start":26980.495,"end":27001.07,"text":"在參加選修課的時候他要繳的報告不是他不是考試他繳一個類似碩士的那種田野調查的報告就叫研究問題研究方法然後最後要有結論的那個必須要大學碩士可能才有基本類似素養所做出來的東西所以學生壓力也變得非常大那老師也要花非常多時間去改那些報告所以"},{"start":27003.567,"end":27021.589,"text":"時間都會影響到他的教學品質這個是第一件事情第二件事情學校說忽然間印巴克剛增加了非常多東西例如說什麼學習歷程檔案但是學校並沒有得到相對應行政的support所以有很多學校對於學習歷程檔案的支持是比較少的"},{"start":27022.868,"end":27051.207,"text":"再來就是我看學生的意見因為學生還是實際上接受這個課綱的人我跟院長推薦一個單位叫做EDIS這個單位它是有幾位是大學生有台大的政治系的還有一些高中生他們每一年都會針對108課綱做出檢討而且他們的檢討是有憑有據他們是發問卷問卷對象是一千多份他們在做這個課綱的研討會的時候還會邀請教育部的官員來"},{"start":27052.401,"end":27061.495,"text":"但每一次叫一部官員來聽完他們的建議之後修改的是少之又少我就舉一個例子因為今天時間不多我就舉一項學習歷程檔案"},{"start":27063.244,"end":27085.314,"text":"這是他們做的調查學習基準檔案超過50%的學生他覺得需要有校園的系統來支持為什麼?因為學習基準檔案其實還是需要一些專業那學習基準檔案有哪些問題我們可以來看一下比如說第一個學習基準檔案雖然大家做得非常辛苦可是很多大學在招生的時候"},{"start":27086.014,"end":27086.695,"text":"這第一件事情。第二件事情"},{"start":27097.885,"end":27116.071,"text":"學習歷程檔案強調是說要學生去做自我的探索,對吧?自我的探索,但是你覺得他們有這樣探索到嗎?有的是叫先設建再劃法啦,從小家長叫他學醫,所以他在學習歷程檔案的時候全部都往醫學院的方向去寫這個學習歷程檔案。"},{"start":27117.731,"end":27129.168,"text":"有的是探索到高二高三之後忽然發現說他的志趣跟他過去探索都不一樣可是完了他過去的學習立定檔案做的都是另外一個方向產生極大的焦慮"},{"start":27130.765,"end":27156.327,"text":"所以這個學習電子檔案,然後再來更不要講學習電子檔案很多人都外包啦網路上一查很多都是在外面很多補習班在幫人家做學習電子檔案所以這個問題很嚴重然後學生我們剛剛看了他們在做歷程檔案學習電子檔案的時候常常有問題要問老師同學或者是專家不知道問誰啊也產生很大的焦慮這都是學生的意見我剛剛把我所知道的有老師的反應"},{"start":27157.543,"end":27181.114,"text":"學生的反應還有更不要講因為必修課已經減少四分之一所以現在要讀那個專業科目的時候很多東西都很粗糙很粗略沒有辦法讀到細節例如說讀歷史現在歷史很多都是很簡單沒有故事性沒有脈絡學生就必須去記那個年份跟發生的事情失去了對整個歷史的興趣歷史就是要見古知今嘛"},{"start":27181.434,"end":27198.872,"text":"他有一個脈絡嘛有環境的影響或細節的影響人事物的影響有的時候就沒有辦法讀得那麼有趣所以他這個108課上是有很多問題的我知道現在也沒有很多時間讓院長部長回答我現在只是希望一件事情就是能不能夠召開一個真的認真召開一個"},{"start":27199.898,"end":27228.177,"text":"委員會或者什麼會議你把所有很多人的意見把他納進來然後真的來做一個檢討然後這些檢討報告當然可以逐步的去修改或者是118課綱的時候可以來一個比較針對118課綱所衍生的問題做一個調整不知道院長跟部長能不能做到謝謝委員 這個建議是必定會做的從檢討過去到策略未來現在都沒在做院長"},{"start":27229.636,"end":27248.914,"text":"因為你知道我們四個升學的管道不然是繁星計畫、申請入學、申請分發或是分科分發或者是這個特殊選材都有相當的人數經過這樣的管道下去他除了學測之外有高中在校的成績有學習過程還有一些特殊的選材過程還有一些就是加上學測"},{"start":27249.855,"end":27253.419,"text":"月亮月亮我覺得你回答好像沒有聽懂我講你講的只是分發就是考照部分我講的是學習的部分"},{"start":27269.739,"end":27286.36,"text":"我講的是108課剛學習的公文報告我現在就是說特別來總諮詢那麼重要時間來講我是希望說因為每一年大家都在講一樣的事情可是我們不曾看到有調整希望說大家很認真的針對這些事情做一個調整去回應"},{"start":27287.737,"end":27289.078,"text":"社會或學界的需求"},{"start":27330.674,"end":27346.918,"text":"謝謝葉元智委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告委員會,我們教育及文化組織質詢已詢答完畢。謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長列席答詢。現做以下決定。下一次會議進行交通組織質詢。我們現在散會。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154436","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154436","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a1547a5bbae0d4acf953f2c12d918673f79f1bad52d3b6009b74313ba9401abf90a7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"15:01:14 - 15:16:54","影片長度":"00:15:40","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T15:01:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T15:16:54+08:00","duration":940,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":176,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（15時1分）謝謝主席，有請行政院長還有教育部長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢、教育部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：院長午安。剛剛呂玉玲委員提到108課綱，我自己的兩個小孩就是108課綱的受益者，我要強調，108課綱強調一個非常重要的精神，讓學生有自主探索、自主學習的精神，而這件事情在我小時候的求學歷程是完全沒有的。我們家的大兒子是一個好愛念書、好愛追求分數的小孩，臺灣的體制給他這樣的空間，而我們家的二兒子非常討厭學校的考卷，他喜歡閱讀、喜歡唱歌、喜歡音樂，而臺灣的學校在108課綱從九年一貫教改之後，也給了我的第二個兒子自由探索的空間。確實如同剛剛部長您說的，很多老師、家長、孩子們在現場需要您更多的說明跟協助，讓他們可以真的走在這個108課綱上。我想雖然這不是我本來的題目，可是我身為108課綱的受益者，真的要為108課綱多說句話。是不是就拜託部長之後在暑假跟全臺灣的教育局長開會的時候，把更多的相關政策或是還有什麼樣說明的機會提供給縣市政府？好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我們確實是往那個方向，暑假我們會全面跟家長、跟地方的教育主管溝通這個意見，希望能夠讓更多的家長、老師跟同學瞭解它的用意是良善的。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後補充一句話，在相關的青少年自己做的民調當中，孩子們告訴我們，他們不想要回去我們小時候的聯考，我想這件事情也要拜託院長和部長，我們要繼續堅持讓孩子有自由探索、自由學習的空間。謝謝部長，您先請回。謝謝！","要麻煩院長。我們要先來討論關於兒少權法，雖然今天衛福部長沒有來，不過我們跟行政院照會過了，我想我就直接跟院長討論兒少權法的部分，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：今年是臺灣兒童權利公約施行法國內法化10週年的紀念，10年前，現在的蕭美琴副總統當時也是曾經倡議的一員。臺灣把兒童權利公約施行法國內法化之後，各個部會或是各個行政機關對於兒童權利的認識確實增進了很多，可是在社會樣態複雜、多元的情況下，很多事情我們根本來不及反應，或是現行法規根本沒有辦法照顧到這些突發的事件，所以從今年開議以來，不分朝野立委、民團、專家、學者、教師、家長，甚至很多兒少代表都在問：最新版本的兒少權法什麼時候有機會送入行政院，再從行政院送到立法院來？"],["卓院長榮泰：新的修法內容重點應該不外乎疏忽照顧，還有身體跟精神上的一些暴力，甚至性剝削、性侵害等等相關權利的維護，這個因為經過多年的研商，現在是準備啟動第二階段的研商機制，所以衛福部應該是在這個前提底下去跟各界做更多的研議，希望能夠真的提出一個比較健全的，剛剛說的那個內容、重點都能夠普遍照顧到。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝院長的回應。我剛剛特別有強調，我把一大串的名字都唸出來，我想要再一次跟院長報告，專家學者、民間團體、第一線的工作者包含老師、包含社工師、包含心理師、包含兒少代表、包含老師、包含家長，還有很多的青少年他們願意為自己發聲，所以也要拜託行政院透過行政院跟衛福部對話的機制，讓衛福部知道相關兒少權法在修法的時候，必須要把大家的意見納入考量，甚至開公聽會跟座談會，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝。其實包括兒童的心理諮商，我們也準備要往向下扎根的方向去做。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝院長。接下來有請教育部長，謝謝。談到兒少權法，其實臺灣缺一些工具的可能性，我今天想要快速談一下的是兒少工作證跟兒少教練證這件事情，目前在臺灣的現行體制是這樣，容我跟院長還有部長報告。我們的孩子在學校系統或者是補習班系統，如果遇到了犯罪的大人，他們的名字是有機會被查得到的，在現行的法規之下。可是如果孩子們去的是暑假的營隊或者是社區運動俱樂部，在這些不在我剛剛說的系統裡面，每天陪伴著我們的孩子在做音樂、運動或者是一般體育運動也好的這些大人，他們過往有沒有不當對待孩子的紀錄，現在家長是查不到的，這個部分要先讓部長跟院長知道。可是如果我們有機會來推兒少工作證跟兒少教練證，我們也許有機會改善這個困境。","我想要說一下，目前在兒少法裁罰通報裡面，第四十九條有相關的裁罰平臺，如果有一個大人，例如說他叫陳培瑜，他犯了兒少法第四十九條，我的名字就會被公告在上面，我到底對小孩做了哪些事情家長是查得到的，可是不在這個系統裡面的話，其實家長是查不到的。就如同前一陣子新竹縣就有家長發現，在一個夏令營營隊當中，曾經有一個對孩子不當的大人，他竟然還用別的名義在開課，他開了一個新的補習班，或是他的家人開了一個新的補習班，但是那個人還是持續招生。這個事情其實對家長來說是很大的恐懼跟恐慌，大家會問，政府對孩子的把關機制在哪裡？於是家長只好自食其力，大家努力分享社群的訊息，可是這樣的恐懼，我們其實在法規上是有機會可以幫忙家長解決的。","我們來看澳洲兒少工作證，之前就已經跟部長私下先討論過，我更明確地說，澳洲透過立法去規範兒少工作證，他們是透過警政、司法、教育還有社政的系統互相勾稽，確保這個大人到底可不可以跟小孩一起工作。當時部長您也問我到底那個規範的範圍要多大，才不會濫傷無辜或者是該保護的沒有保護到。根據澳洲的法規，它的寫法是這樣，在我投影片的左手邊有提到，哪些人需要呢？例如你跟孩子們一起工作，包含音樂老師、課外教練、輔導員、舞蹈老師，或是你加入一個正式的輔導計畫，或是你是兒童安全組織的負責人等等的資料，之後可以再提供給教育部，可是右邊它就告訴我們哪一些人不需要呢？例如你的工作是偶爾才幫忙小孩作為你角色的附帶部分，可是你跟小孩工作時間非常短，甚至你只是一個客座演講者到學校，就好像我以前的工作，也是經常到學校去跟孩子們演講，所以我也許在澳洲的制度底下，我是不需要的，可是如果我自己開設一個作文班、讀書會，長期跟孩子接觸，在澳洲的法規裡面，我就是需要的。","講到這邊我想要問，甚至在這個法規裡面，他們還讓家長可以透過一個系統查詢到陳培瑜有沒有曾經不當對待兒童的紀錄，透過法規跟系統的完整，讓家長可以放心，知道可以把孩子送到哪裡去，而對於專業的從業人員，其實我們也被尊重了，因為我們對於兒童的用心跟正確的對待方法也被家長看見，所以我們在招生上其實是相對容易的。我覺得在這個兒童意識高漲的年代，像這樣的系統或是這樣的法規、這樣的證照，有沒有機會在臺灣開始推動？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實委員所提的是一個非常重要的觀念跟價值，目前教育部對各教育場域不適任的老師有通報跟查詢系統……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯、沒錯。"],["鄭部長英耀：也就是說，有涉及到性侵害或者體罰或者霸凌學生，這些經調查屬實解聘，全部都會放在那個網站，所以我們所有的家長或者一般人要查詢，事實上都可以查詢到的，所以這一個目前是……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，沒有，教育系統那個網站……部長，我跟你確認一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：教育系統那個網站，一般家長是不能查的，除非……我前一次跟衛福部開會，我要求衛福部要回過頭來跟教育部要那個資料，教育部底下所屬還有地方政府所屬的學校，必須要把資料灌回給衛福部的那個兒少法裁罰系統第四十九條，家長才可以查得到，這個跟部長您報告一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，繼續，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以如果是這樣，部長也覺得可行，相關的證照系統、課程內容或是如何有完備的法規資源，我們可不可以一起來研究跟討論？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。跟委員報告，我們目前確實在法令上還沒有形成一個政策，但是我們會從今年暑假，事實上體育署就開始對小孩子有許多的項目，譬如戶外體育休閒的這些活動，溜冰或者各方面的運動項目，包括學校許多暑期的運動團隊，暑假至少我們會規劃二到三個研習營，就是希望這些擔任短期運動或者各項才藝的指導老師，對兒童的權益各方面能夠有一個初步的瞭解，當然未來我們希望朝一個制度來呼應委員的那個方向。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長您的回應，您剛剛講到體育署，那我就跟您分享，在2021年有一個臺中上柔道課的小孩，被教練摔死了，不知道部長記不記得這個事情？到現在我都不願再提起這麼悲傷的事情，當時在監察院的糾正下，體育署作出了回應，增加一個一小時的課程。您剛剛說的，我們辦公室尤其要求體育署，非常多的單項協會或者是不在單項協會的這些社區運動俱樂部，這些每天跟孩子們在一起的大人，他們必須要瞭解小孩，他們不是只是一個小時的課程就可以解決，所以接下來要跟部長談的就是兒少體育教練證。我知道我剛剛說的兒少工作證相對困難，它的範圍是大的，可是我們可不可以從最常發生霸凌、不當對待體罰、性侵、性騷相關事件的體育教學場域來著手？就是我要談的兒童體育教練證。我們辦公室也提出一個版本，我們也跟體育署積極討論過。國體法第十條之一，我們增修了這個條文，可不可以在相關條文裡面，把相關的課程內容、師資人才資料庫，或者是相關的懲罰機制、相關的配套措施，都在國體法裡面把它修訂完成？不知道部長覺得我們有沒有機會來進一步討論這個法條的修正？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，事實上我們也朝那一個方向在努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們一起努力，謝謝部長，部長先請回好了，謝謝。","院長，接下來想要跟您討論一件事情，我不是很確定可不可行，但是我自己心裡面是有這樣的願望，也是符合非常多家長的想像。我們知道行政院轄下有一個兒少權益推動小組，而且是三個月召開一次，一年至少要召開四次，每一次提出的很多問題，其實必須要有很多跨部會的討論機制，去促成很多兒少權益小組裡面提出來的討論。但是我們在過往很多開會的會議紀錄當中發現，很多事情一旦涉及跨部會，它就很容易權責劃分不明或者是相關的工作業務分不清楚，有沒有機會來提高兒少權益推動小組召集人的位階？目前的位階是由政務委員擔任，但是政務委員是不是真的對這些事情的熟悉，或是讓跨部會之間的合作可以順利的運行？我的建議是有沒有機會讓這個小組的召集人變成由副院長來擔任？院長您覺得呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，陳委員一直都是一個大家敬重的親職教育專家，所以你對於這些不當對待等等的行為，絕對是無法忍受，對此我們是同樣的立場。至於行政院裡面的兒童兒少權益小組，它原來就是政務委員來擔任，我們現在邀請的政務委員都各有專長，我想我可以跟教育的、跟衛福相關的政委談，未來他有沒有更好的方式直接把這個小組的能量，或是他可以面對處理的問題，讓它提升起來。我或是副院長甚至秘書長，我們都會很關注未來所做的工作，我們給予全力的支持。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝院長，其實如果問我私心，最希望有兒少部，但我不會亂許願。我們先來把相關部會的權責劃分清楚，然後可以做的事情做得更多、更好。","最後一個要跟院長您討論的是這個，這也是賴清德總統的政見喔！關於體育署升格成體育運動發展部，我們辦公室一直很關心體育現場的很多狀況，不管是透過運動教練、透過選手、透過學生，透過家長，之前體育署辦了一場還是兩場相關的升格座談會，我們辦公室的助理也有前去參加。在相關的報告裡面，我們看到好像是把現在體育署的組織整個往上拉而已，但是我們自己在想，應該不是組織往上拉就沒事了，而是整個體育部的政策裡面，如何把對於兒少體育的政策放進政策思考當中。我舉一個例子，臺灣過往的孩子們如果想要修習體育，或者是變成體育專家，可能我們會把孩子送進體育班，但是體育班的升學系統，一直到現在都還是有很多的問題，我們日後再討論。所以現在很多家長寧可把孩子送到所謂社區運動俱樂部，但是自建俱樂部的想法，其實可能不在過往體育署的分組脈絡當中，我只是舉其中一個例子，在這個時代的氛圍底下，體育署的升格有沒有辦法呼應新時代的需求，或者是新的時代下大家對於兒少體育政策的需求、對於長者體育運動的需求，或者是整個社會對於運動體育發展的需求？這邊請部長還是院長回答都可以。"],["卓院長榮泰：我先講一下，體育部升格只是運動普及跟全民運動的第一支箭而已，重點在它升級之後規劃出來的整個政策目標，以及它能夠發展出來的各種功能。現在體育署在部裡面，體育署的工作要如何轉嫁到未來的體育部去，這個現在在做一些介面上的轉嫁，也希望這個組織法經過大院的協助能夠通過。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們樂見其成。因為我時間有限，我就快速說一下，就是我剛剛說的，升格裡面不管是經費或者是位階、員額的增加，如何符合社會的期待，我相信是大家的期待，應該也是賴總統當時政見的期待，也是院長您剛剛的說法，還請把更多兒少體育政策一起納入作為政策思考的主體好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。最後在有限的時間裡，我要再問一個，我們之前跟農業部討論協助去化臺灣的牛乳，2025年紐西蘭關稅貿易協定牛乳進來之後免關稅，臺灣的牛乳怎麼辦？我們談到了學童乳，但是目前我們一直沒有看到相關的進度，不知道院長知道相關的進度嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們預計9月開始，每週有兩天提供保久乳或者是鮮乳。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個是院長已經確定的。那最後一個，營養午餐法的部分我們辦公室之前也討論過，關於營養午餐法，有機會在之後進行專案討論嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：會再跟委員請教。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝院長、謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、鄭部長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來登記第6號伍麗華委員、第7號林宜瑾委員、第8號許智傑委員、第9號賴惠員委員質詢均以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe書面質詢：","案由：本院委員伍麗華，針對賴清德總統政見及113年5月31日行政院長施政方針書面報告所提：「政府將逐步發展雙軌制的原住民族教育體系」，應落實《原住民族教育法》第15條，推動「114至116學年度原住民族學校試辦計畫」，特向行政院提出質詢。","說明：","一、2024年5月31日卓榮泰院長赴立法院施政方針書面報告第13頁敘明：「政府將逐步發展雙軌制的原住民族教育體系」，《原住民族教育法》第15條明定：「各級政府得視需要設立各級原住民族學校或原住民教育班，以利原住民學生就學，並維護其文化。」，相關事項須以法律另定之。","二、自2018年，原住民族委員會即依據蔡英文總統政策，擬定《原住民族學校法》草案並召開公聽會，立法院亦於2022年排審立委版本草案，然而對於原住民族學校之想像及草案內容，當時是莫衷一是，而未有共識。","三、然而，依據2007年「聯合國原住民族人權宣言」第14條第1項，即清楚揭示：「原住民族有權建立和掌管他們的教育制度和機構，以自己的語言和適合其文化教學方法的方式提供教育。」，其中，近幾年來，成為全國爭相參訪、觀摩對象的紐西蘭毛利教育更是標竿，他們在各教育階段皆已採用毛利語為教學語言（如下表），其中幼兒園為全毛利語沉浸式學校，小學階段則以英語搭配毛利語沉浸式學校，反觀我國原住民族教育，則僅有做半套幼兒園（不完全）沉浸式族語教學或族語教學、民族教育。","四、本席自2022年起，已質詢7次以上，爭取在社會對於原住民族學校法尚未有共識前，應先以試辦計畫運行，然而始終未果。然而，以今年度用於原住民族語言教育相關經費來看，教育部預算6.44億元、原民會預算7.12億元，此外，還有依據原住民族教育法第11條規定之原住民族法定預算64.74億元。","五、當政府投入這麼龐大的資源去推動原住民族語言教育，終要面對社會的檢視：我們最終到底能不能教出一個會說族語的孩子？因此，本席不斷強調，對於什麼是原住民族學校，應回歸教育的本質和國家的上位目標，原住民族學校即是「以現有的師資為來源，用一定比例的族群語言做為教學語言，採用各族群的課綱、課程及教材，實施十二年基本國民教育的學校。」","六、經過試算，在目前已具備族群本位教材（如排灣、魯凱族）的前提下，原住民族學校若採逐年增班模式運作，試辦計畫所需經費第一年僅需960萬元（含2位教師、校長、兼職人員、幹事、校護、工友、辦公業務費、油料保險費等…），到達一至六年級各一班之滿編狀態，一年亦僅需2,304萬元，在現行經費規模下，非屬難事，且師育係以現職教師為主要來源，不需增編員額。","七、此外，原住民族教育法第15條立法理由明定：由中央原住民族主管機關規劃原住民族學校設立事項。爰此，可循科學園區設置管理條例第10條之規定，原住民族委員會比照國科會角色，負責學校設教畫書、招生簡章並提報正式設校計畫；教育部則負責核定計畫、辦理籌備處主任遴選、提報籌備處、教師職員員額並核定設校。","八、根據原民會108學年度「原住民族教育調查統計工作計畫」，以屏東為例，排灣族的現職教師約有四成，具有「非常好」的聽、說、讀、寫能力，而面對族語傳承，我們是在與時間賽跑，這些既有師資退休後，即會造成教學人才的斷層，原住民族學校試辦必須加快腳步。","建議：","1.請行政院責成原民會及教育部，持續推動立法，蒐整過去提案版本、學家學者及教學工作者之意見，提出「原住民族學校法草案」推動期程規劃。","2.請行政院責成原民會會同教育部，兩個月內提出114-116學年度試辦計畫。"],["委員許智傑書面質詢：","一、針對偏遠地區學校，進行制度檢討及研擬結構性問題解決方案。","《偏遠地區學校教育發展條例》第四條之一規定偏鄉學校的定義為：「因交通、文化、生活機能、數位環境、社會經濟條件或其他因素，致有教育資源不足情形之公立高級中等以下學校。」。","根據《親子天下》調查數據顯示，113學年全台將有18所國小走入歷史，是近10年來最多，多分布於南投、台南、高雄、屏東、澎湖等縣市。然依教育部《公立國民小學及國民中學合併或停辦準則》第七條規定，只要新生或各年級學生有1人，學校就要開班，為此還有案例村民組成的反廢校聯盟提出行政訴訟。上述都在在顯示我國偏鄉教育的困境與制度的不足。","據本席了解，偏鄉教育面臨結構性問題，首先為師資不足，且教師流動率極高；且城鄉差距過大，學習資源差距無法被彌補。為改善城鄉教育發展差距，教育部制定《偏遠地區學校教育發展條例》，推動教學創新實驗、多元交流志工陪伴、行政減量和教師安定及社區協作青年返鄉等策略。","然教育部之因應並未真正解決偏鄉教育的困境，教育部應針對如何吸引正式師資長期投入偏鄉學校，以及投入足以彌補城鄉差距之資源，且善用將利益最大化，本席建請貴部針對偏鄉教育普及與生活資源全面覆蓋提出相關方案。","二、介於偏遠地區學校及都市學校之間，缺少補助、招生困難應提出相對方案。","本席持續關心學生就學狀況及教育品質，過去曾針對學生心理輔導等相關議題進行研究。又非山非市學校，被遺忘在都市與偏遠山區之間，一線之隔分級之落差補助差之千里，鑒於我國面臨少子化及都市化，與教育政策問題不符合偏鄉學校基準，致許多資源沒辦法精準挹注。","地處偏遠但不符合偏遠地區定義的非山非市學校，其中招生困難及師資朝聘不易，是過七成學校困境，固有許多學校師資、課程和教學等問題都與偏鄉學校面臨相同問題，使這些學校學生變相成為另一種弱勢。","根據願景工程基金會調查，雖教育部於108年公布修正作業要點，將非山非市學校納入補助對象挹注更多經費，然我國仍有近百所學校建議調整《偏遠地區學校教育發展條例》，因學校並無地方財政優勢，更沒有便利交通，不僅造成招生問題，師資流動率亦高。爰本席建請教育部，針對非山非市學校招聘教師積分、校舍修繕補助、軟硬體教育設備等相關面向重新研擬，以利學生獲得其應有受教權。"],["委員賴惠員書面質詢：","問題一：台南市第一選區學校輔導教師聘用狀況","為促進高級中等以下學校學生身心健全發展，教育部於《學生輔導法》（下稱「學輔法」）第10條規定，以班級數為依據要求各校聘任專任輔導教師。惟為因應實務上偏鄉地區輔導教師人才缺乏、各校班級數少等狀況，教育部又另於《教育部國民及學前教育署補助公立國民中學及國民小學置輔導教師實施要點》（下稱「要點」）第12點中，有條件容許兩校合聘1位專任輔導教師。","1.請問目前於各直轄市、縣市內學校聘任之輔導教師數量、及依要點辦理合聘之學校數量。","2.請問我國各區域得依學輔法規定聘任為專任輔導教師之人才總數量、及目前尚未受聘任之人才數量。以及教育部是否有增加學生輔導人才的具體作為，預計下學年可增加多少人力？","3.針對學輔法第6條所定「三級輔導」機制，教育部針對非專業輔導人員之校長、教師如何進行後續輔導知能培力？如何進行考核評估？","4.請提供立法委員台南市第一選區內，各級學校聘任專任輔導教師之狀況、是否有依要點第11點兼任行政職務。","5.近三年按「少年輔導委員會設置及輔導實施辦法」第8條規定，目前各區域少輔會因接獲「學校」通報而開案之學生數量。另請提供台南市的狀況。","問題二：台南市第一選區偏鄉學校狀況","按教育部公告及全國教育實習資訊平台統計，台南市現有117所偏鄉學校，為6都內最多；其中本席所在台南市第一選區內就有超過50所。","1.請問今年台南市第一選區各偏鄉學校112學年度畢業生狀況、及113學年度各校預計入學人數？","2.請問就教育部所知，未來10年內台南市第一選區內可能因召無學生自然停召的學校數量，教育部是否有協助地方政府盤點後續教師轉任之方式？","3.請問目前台南市第一選區內閒置校舍之數量、預計未來10年會增加多少、有多少已經進行校舍活化工作？","4.經本席觀察，偏鄉學校在經過併校之後，學校周圍的社區發展非常容易沒落，因此併校對於當地社區發展是非常危險的。請教育部承諾在不併校的情況下，提升偏鄉學生受教及受輔導權益，並評估如何將校園課程與當地社區文化與發展進行整合。"],["主席：再接下來，我們請登記第10號鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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院長午安剛剛呂玉玲委員提到108課綱我自己兩個小孩就是108課綱的受益者我要強調108課綱強調一個非常重要精神讓學生有自主探索自主學習的精神而這件事情在我小的時候求學歷程是完全沒有的"},{"start":43.996,"end":62.508,"text":"所以我們家的大兒子是一個好愛念書好愛追求分數的小孩臺灣的體制給他這樣的空間而我們家的二兒子非常討厭學校的考卷他喜歡閱讀喜歡唱歌喜歡音樂而臺灣的學校在108課綱從9年一貫教改之後也給了我的第二個兒子自由探索的空間"},{"start":63.688,"end":90.652,"text":"確實如同剛剛部長您說的很多老師家長孩子們在現場確實需要您更多的說明跟協助讓他們可以真的走在這個108課綱上我想雖然這不在我本來的題目可是我身為108課綱的受益者我真的要為108課綱多說句話是不是就拜託部長之後有機會您在暑假跟全臺灣的教育局長開會的時候把相關更多的政策或是還有什麼樣說明的機會提供給縣市政府好嗎"},{"start":92.221,"end":110.992,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,我們確實是往那個方向,暑假我們會全面來跟家長跟地方的教育主管來溝通這個意見,希望能夠讓更多的家長老師跟同學他們能夠了解他的一個用意是良善的。"},{"start":111.414,"end":136.22,"text":"謝謝我最後補充一句話在相關的青少年自己做的民調當中孩子們告訴我們他們不想要回去我們小時候的聯考我想這件事情也要拜託院長跟部長我們要繼續堅持讓孩子有自由探索自由學習的空間謝謝部長您先請回謝謝好那要麻煩院長我們要先來討論關於兒少全法不過因為今天衛福部長沒有來不過我們跟行政院招會過了我想我就跟院長直接討論兒少全法的部分可以嗎"},{"start":137.801,"end":164.443,"text":"台灣今年是兒童權利公約施行法國內化十周年的紀念。十年前現在的蕭美琴副總統當時也是曾經倡議的議員。台灣確實把兒童權利公約施行法國內化之後,確實很多各個部會或是各個行政機關對於兒童權利的認識確實增進了很多。可是確實在社會複雜樣態多元的情況下,很多事情我們根本來不及反映或是現行的法規,"},{"start":165.003,"end":165.063,"text":"﹚培瑜"},{"start":182.965,"end":199.821,"text":"新的修法內容重點應該不外乎在這個舒服照顧還有身體跟精神上的一些暴力甚至性剝削性侵害等等這個權利的維護那這個因為經過多年的延伤現在"},{"start":201.822,"end":215.511,"text":"是準備啟動所謂第二階段的延商之機制所以衛福部應該是在這個前提底下去跟各界做更多的研議希望能夠真的弄做一個比較健全的剛剛說的那個內容重點都能夠普遍照顧到的"},{"start":216.001,"end":244.569,"text":"好謝謝院長的回應我剛剛特別有強調我把一大串的名字都唸出來我想再一次跟院長報告專家學者民間團體第一線的工作者包含老師包含社工師包含心理師包含兒少代表包含老師包含家長還有很多的青少年他們願意為自己發聲所以要拜託行政院透過行政院跟衛福部對話的機制讓衛福部必須知道相關兒少權法在修法的時候必須要把大家的意見納入考量甚至開公聽會跟座談會好嗎"},{"start":245.569,"end":255.815,"text":"好的,謝謝。謝謝報告。兒童的心理智商我們也準備要往下向下扎跟著方向去做。好,謝謝院長。那接下來呢就有請教育部長,謝謝。"},{"start":258.363,"end":285.42,"text":"關於在談到兒少權法其實臺灣缺一些工具的可能性那我今天想要快速談一下的是兒少工作證跟兒少教練證這件事情目前在臺灣的現行體制上容我跟院長還有部長報告我們的孩子在學校系統或者是補習班系統如果遇到了犯罪的大人他們的名字是有機會被查得到的在現行的法規之下可是如果孩子們去的是暑假的營隊或者是社區運動俱樂部"},{"start":286.781,"end":302.004,"text":"在這些不在我剛說系統裡面每天陪伴著我們的孩子在做音樂運動或者是一般體育運動也好的這些大人他們過往有沒有不當對待孩子的記錄現在家長是查不到的這個部分要先讓部長跟院長知道好"},{"start":302.384,"end":328.607,"text":"那可是如果我們有機會來推兒少工作證跟兒少教練證我們也許有機會改善這個困境喔。我想要說一下目前呢在兒少法裁罰通報裡面第49條有相關的裁罰平台如果有一個大人例如說他叫陳培瑜他犯了兒少法49條我的名字就會被公告在上面那我到底對小孩做了哪些事情呢家長是查得到的可是不在這個系統裡面其實家長是查不到就如同前一陣子"},{"start":329.528,"end":354.94,"text":"新竹市是新竹縣就有家長發現在一個下令營營隊當中曾經有一個對孩子不當的大人他竟然還用別的名義在開課他開了一個新的補習班或是他的家人開了一個新的補習班但是那個人還是持續招生那這個事情其實對家長來說是很大的恐懼跟恐慌大家會問政府對孩子把關機是在哪裡那於是家長只好自食其力大家努力分享社群的訊息"},{"start":355.64,"end":373.729,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":373.829,"end":376.332,"text":"在我投影片的左手邊下一張。投影片的左手邊有提到"},{"start":395.091,"end":421.306,"text":"哪些人需要呢?例如說你跟孩子們一起工作,包含音樂老師、課外教練、輔導員、舞蹈老師,或是你加入一個正式的輔導計畫,或是你是兒童安全組織的負責人等等等的資料之後可以再提供給教育部。可是右邊他就告訴我們哪一些人你不需要呢?例如說你的工作是偶爾才幫忙小孩作為你角色的附帶部分,可是你跟小孩工作時間非常短,甚至你只是一個客座演講者到學校。"},{"start":421.826,"end":421.866,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":445.896,"end":470.794,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":471.158,"end":497.171,"text":"跟委員報告,確實委員所提的這是一個非常重要的一個觀念跟價值。我們目前在教育部是對各教育場域不適任的老師是有通報跟查詢。是沒錯沒錯。也就是說有涉及到性侵害或者體罰或者霸凌學生這些經調查屬實解聘全部都會放在那個網站。所以我們所有的家長或者一般人要查詢事實上都可以查詢到的。"},{"start":497.671,"end":520.882,"text":"部長沒有,教育系統那個網站,部長我跟您確認一下,教育系統那個網站一般家長是不能查的,除非在我前一次的跟衛福部的開會裡面,我要求衛福部要回過頭來跟教育部要那個資料,教育部底下所屬還有地方政府所屬的學校,必須要把資料灌回給衛福部的那個兒少法裁罰系統第49條,家長才可以查得到,這個跟部長您報告一下。好,繼續,謝謝。"},{"start":522.784,"end":530.96,"text":"所以如果是這樣部長你也覺得可行相關的證照系統或者是課程內容或是如何有完備的法規資源我們可不可以一起來研究跟討論?"},{"start":532.563,"end":558.721,"text":"謝謝根委員報告我目前確實在這個法令上還沒有是還沒有形成一個政策但是我們會從這一個今年暑假事實上我們提出就開始對小孩子有許多的這些的比如說戶外的這個體育休閒的這些活動溜滑冰啊溜冰啊或者各方面的一些運動的一些項目包括學校的許多的這些暑期的一些運動團隊我們開始"},{"start":561.602,"end":582.392,"text":"會屬下至少我們會規劃有2到3個這個研習營就是希望這些擔任短期這個運動或者各項的才藝的一個指導老師能夠對兒童的權益各方面能夠有一個初步的了解那當然未來我們希望朝一個制度上來就呼應這個委員"},{"start":583.833,"end":613.353,"text":"謝謝部長您的回應您剛剛講到體育署那我就跟您分享在2021年當年有一個臺中的柔道小孩被教練摔死了不知道部長您記不記得這個事情到現在我都不願意再提起這麼悲傷的事情因為在當時監察院的糾正底下體育署做出了回應增加一個一小時的課程那您剛剛說的我們辦公室尤其要求體育署非常多的單向協會或者是不再單向協會這些社區運動俱樂部這些每天跟孩子們在一起的大人"},{"start":613.673,"end":613.913,"text":"國體法10之一"},{"start":642.921,"end":667.813,"text":"我們增修了這個條文可不可以在相關條文裡面呢把相關的課程內容、私私人才資料庫或者是相關的懲罰機制相關的配套措施都在國體法裡面把它修訂完成不知道部長您覺得我們有沒有機會來進一步討論這個法條的修正?謝謝委員的提醒事實上我們也在朝那個方向在努力好那我們一起努力好謝謝部長謝謝好那"},{"start":668.933,"end":684.41,"text":"嗯,接下來就部長先請回好了,謝謝。那院長接下來想要跟您討論一件事情,我不是很確定可不可行,但是我自己心裡面是有這樣的願望,也是符合非常多家長的想像。我們知道行政院轄下有一個兒少權益推動小組,而且是三個月。"},{"start":685.231,"end":712.942,"text":"三個月召開一次一年至少召開四次那每一次提出的很多問題呢其實必須要有很多跨部會的討論機制去促成很多兒少權益小組裡面提出來的討論但是我們在過往的很多開會會議記錄當中發現很多事情一旦涉及跨部會他就很容易權責劃分不明或者是相關的工作業務分不清楚有沒有機會來提高這個兒少權益推動小組召集人的位階目前的位階是政務委員的擔任"},{"start":714.122,"end":727.005,"text":"但是政務委員是不是真的對這些事情的熟悉度或是讓跨部會之間的合作可以順利的運行?我的建議是有沒有機會讓這個小組的召集人變成是由副院長來擔任?院長您覺得呢?"},{"start":727.892,"end":750.248,"text":"謝謝委員陳委員一直都是一個大家敬重的親子教育專家所以你對這些不當的這個對待等等的行為啊絕對是無法忍受這個我們是同樣立場那至於行政院裡面這個兒童兒少權益的小組他原來就是政務委員來擔任我們現在我們邀請的政務委員都各有專長我想我可以跟教育的跟"},{"start":751.048,"end":768.705,"text":"衛福相關的政委我們去跟他談未來他有沒有更好的方式直接把這個小組的能量或是他可以面對處理的問題讓他提升起來但是我或是副院長甚至我秘書長我們都會很關注將未來所做的工作我們給予全力的支持"},{"start":769.065,"end":780.604,"text":"好,謝謝院長。其實如果問我私心,最希望有兒少不淡,我不會亂許願這樣。我們先來把相關部會的權責劃分清楚,然後可以做的事情做得更多更好。那最後一個要跟院長您討論的是這個。"},{"start":784.091,"end":805.098,"text":"這也是賴清德總統的政見關於體育署升格成體育運動發展部我們辦公室一直很關心體育現場的很多狀況不管是透過運動教練、透過選手、透過學生、透過家長之前體育署辦了兩場一場還是兩場相關的升格座談會我們辦公室的助理也有前去參加在相關的報告裡面我們看到"},{"start":805.618,"end":830.393,"text":"好像是把現在體育署的組織整個往上拉而已但是我們自己在想應該不是組織往上拉就沒事了而是整個體育部的政策裡面如何把對於兒少體育的政策放進政策思考當中我舉一個例子臺灣過往的孩子們如果想要休息體育或者是變成體育專家可能我們會把孩子送進體育班但是因為體育班的升學系統一直到現在都還是有很多的問題我們日後再討論"},{"start":832.154,"end":859.688,"text":"所以現在很多家長寧可把孩子送到所謂社區運動俱樂部但是自建俱樂部的想法其實可能不在過往體育署的分組脈絡當中我只是舉其中一個例子在這個時代的氛圍底下體育署的升格有沒有辦法呼應新時代的需求或者是新的時代下大家對於兒少體育政策的需求對於長者體育運動的需求或者是整個社會對於運動體育發展的需求這邊是要請部長還是院長回答"},{"start":860.969,"end":877.866,"text":"提議部的身格他只是運動普及跟全民運動的第一支箭而已重點在他升級之後他規劃出來的整個政策目標以及他能夠發展出來的各種的功能那現在體育署在部裡面現在體育署的工作如何"},{"start":878.741,"end":905.245,"text":"轉嫁到這個未來的體育布局這個是現在在做一些這個界面上的轉嫁也希望這個組織法能夠經過大院的協助能夠通過我們樂見其成那因為我時間有限我就快速說一下就是我剛剛說的升格裡面不管是經費或者是位階員的增加如何符合社會的期待我相信是大家的期待應該也是賴總統當時政見的期待也是院長你剛剛說法還有把更多兒少體育政策一起一起納入作為政策思考的主體好嗎"},{"start":906.018,"end":930.07,"text":"好的好我最後有時間有限我再問一個我們之前跟農業部討論為了協助去化臺灣2025年紐西蘭關稅貿易協定之後進來牛乳進來之後免關稅臺灣的牛乳怎麼辦我們談到了血統乳但是目前我們一直沒有看到相關進度不知道院長您這邊知道相關進度嗎我們預計9月開始就會每週有兩天提供他保久乳或是鮮乳這個是院長您確定"},{"start":939.451,"end":939.651,"text":"陳培瑜議員"}]}},{"id":"154435","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154435","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a1547e1c6a31ce4e5649c2c12d918673f79f1bad52d3b6009b7430c0883a82e0276fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"14:44:32 - 15:00:41","影片長度":"00:16:09","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T14:44:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T15:00:41+08:00","duration":969,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":55,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（14時44分）謝謝主席，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：呂委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：院長好。院長，你是行政院的大家長，也是家裡的家長，所以我想請教你，你為人父母，那你的兒女在小時候，你是不是一定有跟他講一些小故事？"],["卓院長榮泰：會啊！"],["呂委員玉玲：是，所以我請教院長，你知不知道大禹治水？"],["卓院長榮泰：知道。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以本席想問院長，你知道大禹治水，那為什麼現在大禹治水會被討論呢？最重要就是媒體報導出來，有一個家長跟孩子分享大禹治水的故事，但是他這個高中的孩子卻不知道大禹治水，結果被炎上了。因為大家都認為大禹治水是個神話，而這個神話，你與其去瞭解大禹治水，不如去瞭解八田與一，說到這邊我就要請教院長，你認為八田與一跟大禹治水哪一個重要？"],["卓院長榮泰：他存在不同的時代，也存在不同的地域，就我們這個時候來看，八田與一在臺灣、在南部是比較近的時代，去瞭解他應該也是一個比較快速、直接的，而大禹治水是早期、更早遠的時代，所以能夠瞭解到大禹治水跟八田與一，這兩者的關係就是一個歷史的傳承跟接續。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你的意思是哪個重要？"],["卓院長榮泰：就歷史來看，他就是事實存在的。"],["呂委員玉玲：事實存在？"],["卓院長榮泰：只要是事實存在的歷史都是正確而重要，都應該去瞭解。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，因為我們的國家叫中華民國，不管是過去的歷史或是承接的歷史，只要是我們國家在，我們就必須去傳承、去瞭解，而不是只限於一個區域而已，所以講到這邊就表示八田與一跟大禹治水是一樣的重要，這個院長同意啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，有的是生活的體驗跟接觸，有的是歷史的研究，是個別不同的價值。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，所以在歷史上，我們都必須傳承下去，才是正確的方向。"],["卓院長榮泰：可以瞭解的地方，是。"],["呂委員玉玲：講到這邊，接下來我要跟院長討論的就是我們的108課綱。108課綱上路以來到現在，在我們外界爭議非常的大，因為學生不瞭解，老師又疲於奔命，疲於在備課當中、準備很多的素材，我們要孩子適性揚才、要去多元選擇課程，但是他們的課業非常重，在這麼重的課業裡面要去尋求這些課綱、去做選擇，所以他們在黑暗中去尋找的時候，他們只得用賭的方式，如果中了、賭對了，他們就找到他們的興趣了，所以才會在外界來講，一直說108課綱都要好好的再討論，是不是？部長您上來了，你認為108課綱要討論嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，從教育基本法裡面，我們所期待的培養未來人才的一個圖像，事實上，那些基本能力、素養是沒有改變的，但是我也……"],["呂委員玉玲：沒有改變，但是我們需要的是專業的人士、專業的老師，但是我們專業人力不足的情況之下，我們很多老師就要去兼課，在兼課之下他疲於奔命，工作壓力變得更大，老師累，孩子也累啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：是，這個我想……"],["呂委員玉玲：是就要改變，該改就要去改吧！"],["鄭部長英耀：我同意委員，就是說我們在教育現場，確實怎麼樣去讓老師，他學了一個本科專業，能夠從專業裡面去指導、教導我們的……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你同意必須要專業的老師嘛！不能說他是兼課，他去備課、準備一大堆資料，這樣他的工作量增加了，壓力也變大了，是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想應該跟委員報告，當時在所謂的委員關心的學習歷程檔案，確實當時就只有在那一年宣布的時候，只有那一年做政策的宣導，那我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：是，部長，本席要提醒你的就是，因為你的多元學習讓孩子選擇很多的項目，他沒有辦法在很多項目中找到自己的興趣，尤其我們對於考試才會求取比較需要的知識，所以用考試來準備他們要的知識，在這種情形之下，他變成會狹隘、狹窄在一個範圍裡面，就是因為要準備考試，所以接下來本席要跟你談的就是我們的學習歷程檔案，這個建檔的檔案裡面，在他們學習的過程中，3年的時間裡面他們要準備這個學習歷程檔案，但是他本身的課程就已經很多了，孩子們在這麼多課業繁雜當中，他們沒辦法也不了解，沒辦法準備，所以就變成了金錢的遊戲，為什麼這樣說？因為他要找補習班來教，找補習班來教的話又發生了一個問題，因為對弱勢而言，就會變得非常不公平！因為是金錢遊戲嘛！他們要用金錢去找補習班來教、他們要用金錢去找更多的課外活動，讓學習歷程檔案裡面更加豐富，結果這個歷程檔案做出來了，是他的興趣嗎？是他要的嗎？我們打了很大的問號！所以民眾才一直說必須要檢討改進！部長，要不要改？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，跟委員報告，確實我們也發現，誠如委員剛才所說，事實上也很清楚，學習歷程檔案對學生怎麼樣反思他自己生涯的探索，包括學習、興趣的培養，這都是好的，但是在推動的過程確實也出現、衍生了一些……"],["呂委員玉玲：因為他缺乏引導啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：所以這個部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：一般的課程裡面，他的學習壓力已經很大了，還要再準備這些資料，他沒有足夠的引導。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，今年暑假我們會加強這方面，不僅是高中三年級，我們會從高二、高一，到國中，甚至小學，我們開始去跟教育現場，包括跟家長……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你沒有聽到問題的癥結、問題的重要，因為你說從高中三年還不夠，還要到國中、還要到國小去？他們一般所有課程的準備，不管是雙語還是數理，對於這個教育，他們已經疲於奔命了，你還要讓他做這個學習檔案，他不知道怎麼去摸索，你的立意良善，要他找出他的興趣，而未來就是到大學入學的科系來看這些歷程檔案對不對？但是這些做出來的檔案、這些建檔的檔案，不一定是他的興趣、不一定就是他要的東西。部長，你有沒有瞭解這個癥結及重點所在？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們並不是要小學生開始去寫、國中生開始去寫，我們是從各級教育開始，讓他知道學習的……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以，部長，我才說必須要有充足的時間，他沒有充足的時間就找補習班去教，結果這些東西就客製化出來了，客製化出來的不是孩子們自己真正的東西，所以未來入學給各科系去看的時候並不是正確的，這樣對孩子不一定是好的。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們必須同等去檢討，該改的就改，不要讓老師疲於奔命，孩子也非常辛苦，孩子非常痛苦耶！"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員關心，但是我要利用這個機會跟委員報告，以臺大為例，我們看到透過推甄、透過學習歷程檔案，有更多的弱勢或者一般的學生進入到臺大，這個同時也是委員在關心的，我們希望減少第一線這些學生或者家長……他們不知道大學教授在看什麼，所以我想我們未來在這方面的溝通，我們會做更多的……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你的堅持，但是我們一定要為學校、為老師、為學生都好。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：我希望你去通盤檢討，該改的地方，我們去改，改一個適當的方式，讓孩子真的適性揚才，能夠學以致用，不要讓他們疲於奔命這麼辛苦，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們的目標、做法、想法都跟委員的想法是一致的。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，我們要努力，我們必須要通盤檢討，要去改。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，謝謝！"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來，本席想請教院長。院長，你會說客家話嗎？客家話是國家的通行語，聽得懂嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉！這個還要學習。"],["呂委員玉玲：還要學習？本席是客家妹，所以我們非常重視客家語言，因為現在我們的客語瀕臨滅絕，我們客家人在全臺灣統計上大概有450萬人，占所有總人口數第二大類，僅次於福佬人，我們看到客語要瀕臨滅絕了，院長，你雖然不會講客家話，但是你是政策的指導者，要怎麼做、要怎麼救呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒，客語也是臺灣的國家語言之一，我們在6月27號行政院會當中，已經就國家語言研究發展中心設置條例，我記得那天在討論的時候，現場很多的重點發言都在討論客家話，但是都不是用客語在表達，我當場還說……"],["呂委員玉玲：就必須要用客語。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是臺灣多元文化的一個珍貴。"],["呂委員玉玲：就像客委會的人都要會講客家話。"],["卓院長榮泰：他們當場還是用華語在處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：這個是精神指標，非常的重要！院長，109年的時候，我們的人口及住宅普查統計報告顯示客家族群大概有466萬人，但是使用客語的只有129萬人，不到三分之一，全國總人口數也不到三分之一。所以110年全國客家人口暨語言基礎資料調查研究報告顯示不管是聽的能力或說的能力都是下降的，尤其是60歲比較年長的家庭，使用客語的不到一成，如果是比較年輕的家庭，他們的語言能力就比較不佳了，在整個住的環境裡面，他就沒辦法去適用、去溝通、去講這個客家話，整個住宅的環境對客語非常不友善，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們會從各方面來加強，包括我剛剛說的國家語言研究發展中心，像現在設立之後，原住民族的各個語言、客語、臺語，包括馬祖語等等，都會是全力推動的項目，我也相信客語絕對是相當需要保存的，因為人口數確實是多。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，院長，雖然本土語言有放進108課綱裡，但是學習的人數還是下降，客語認證的人數雖然提高了，但是還是非常非常的少。剛剛院長特別提到設置條例，本來我們客家基本法的修正，本席都有提案，那時候就說我們客語要有發展研究中心，當初說基本法通過之後就要設立的，後來因為要設立了國家語言發展中心，你們說要等這個法通過，後來這個法通過了，又要等設置條例，從國家語言發展法107年通過到現在7年的時間，就為了等國家語言發展中心設置條例，我們等了7年，終於在上個月送進來了，我們很高興，以為國家語言發展中心可以跟客語發展中心併在一起來做，但是文化部次長李靜慧在記者會裡特別提到，國家語言研究發展中心會處理跨語言別、跨領域的研究，單一領域語言如客家話、原住民語要回歸原單位。院長、部長，客家語言基本法為了客語發展中心等了7年，等到今天的結果又說要回到原單位、回到客委會去，我們白等、白耗了7年的時間，讓我們的客語沒辦法發展。"],["卓院長榮泰：既然叫做國家語言研究發展中心……"],["呂委員玉玲：各個語言都算嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：國家語言的定義就非常清楚。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以客語要放進去啊！當時告訴我們說客語可以併進來，所以我們等了7年，結果現在設置條例通過了，又說要回到原單位，又繞回去原單位，讓我們客語的發展白白耗費了7年的時間。所以在這邊拜託院長，雖然你不會講客家話，但我相信你會支持客家的語言發展，不要讓它滅絕。現在這個設置條例已經通過了，趕快進行客語的研究發展，不要讓這個語言凋零，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們會讓研究發展中心將來很健全的發展，同時不只在這裡，我希望各個學校的教育，在適合的地區、地點，都應該把客語融入為一個教材。"],["呂委員玉玲：讓我們客語繼續傳承下去。","接下來本席要跟院長請教的就是龍科三期的進度，在前年的時候，前行政院院長蘇貞昌啟動了龍科三期，因為龍科前面有一期跟二期，都非常的成功，所以我們相信三期的推動是不會有問題的，但是當時因為土地徵收的範圍沒有確定，也跟地方疏於溝通，所以造成了很大的反彈，後來桃園市政府跟科管局、本席和地方慢慢的溝通，終於獲得了共識，雖然徵收土地的面積減少了，但是大家都樂觀其成，本席聽到行政院要來做溝通跟協調，請問協調了沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：請國科會。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們新竹科學園區管理局跟桃園市政府現在正在溝通。"],["呂委員玉玲：我是聽說行政院要出面協調，那協調了嗎？現在有進度嗎？大概什麼時候？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在桃園市政府在重新劃定範圍。"],["呂委員玉玲：範圍已經出來了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還沒有出來，現在還在協調，因為還要遷校，包含龍德國小……"],["呂委員玉玲：是德龍國小。德龍國小剛好在這所有面積的中央，所以它一定要遷校。我們希望遷校的時候要遷到學區裡面，不要遷到北邊，北邊有另外一個學校，學區會重複。所以我們希望教育部和院長能照顧孩子們就近入學和學區的完整性，讓德龍國小可以往南邊遷移，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，這部分桃園市政府非常關心，所以他們正在協調。"],["呂委員玉玲：我有建議兩塊地方，土地都沒有問題了，希望能獲得科管局的支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我們再向委員報告。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝！謝謝呂玉玲委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各位官員的備詢。","接下來登記第3號張宏陸委員的質詢改書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員張宏陸書面質詢：","一、偏鄉學校餐費補助是否可提高？","(一)教育部及行政院農業委員會於110年至112年推行「推動偏鄉學校中央廚房計畫」，經費63.1億元，以提升偏鄉學校午餐品質。透過「提高食材補助」、「興建中央廚房」、「成立食材聯合採購聯盟」及「統籌人力及運送」四大策略，鼓勵使用本國在地食材，並解決偏鄉學校食材費用過低、不易聘請專業廚務人員等問題，讓孩童吃得更健康、更好，實乃立意良善之政策。教育部另有補助餐費，讓每位偏鄉及參與前述計畫之學生，每餐皆能享有62元的菜色，使用豐富多元之料理，精進午餐菜單，提供孩童均衡飲食。","(二)惟明（114）年調漲之國軍官兵伙食費，駐守本島之國軍官兵，每人每月伙食費自2,969元調增為3,487元，調增額度為518元；駐守離島之國軍官兵，每人每月伙食費自今年3,209元調增為3,817元，調增額度為608元。相較之下，我國針對偏鄉學生每餐補助之費用應有調整之必要。雖孩童與成年者之食量有異，但健康性不應因價錢而有異，在物價通膨之時代，應適度調整餐費補助。","(三)又依111年及112年教育部之「學年專業培育、偏遠地區教育、實驗教育及在學率概況提要分析」統計，111學年高級中等以下偏遠地區核定校數為1,204所，112學年則減少至1,199所。偏遠地區學校學生人數亦減少5,000多人。鑒於偏鄉學校數量及學生數量降低、上述孩童午餐與國軍官兵伙食費經費之差異以及物價通膨等因素，孩童每餐補助之經費是否得提高？且偏鄉學校之補助，是否得參照國軍官兵因駐守地不同、距離不同，而有不同經費額度？以此制定標準，針對偏遠程度不同，提供相應之經費補助，以積極落實孩童健康飲食之終極目標。","二、夏令營等校外活動之管理與監督應如何提升？","(一)暑假來臨，學生出遊或參加活動之機會增高，參加夏令營即為活動選擇之一。而依據教育部統計，111年之國中小學學生數量，約為178萬人次，若推估二十分之一人會參加夏令營，則等於約有9萬之國中小學生參加，再以夏令營未過夜之平均價，8千元推估，夏令營之商機約有7億元。","(二)惟夏令營目前無主管機關，營隊之教育品質或活動安全性，皆有重大疑慮。如113年4月，新聞曾報導，新竹某生態工作室長年舉辦兒少生態營隊，卻在112年爆發負責人性侵兒少事件，營隊期間連續2晚性侵4名學童，經過法院審理後，一審遭判3年8個月。而該負責人近日疑似已另起爐灶，再度開課招生，引發地方輿論譁然。","(三)針對夏令營管制問題，教育部曾提出將評估工作證制度，以落實保障兒少權益，請問現在評估進度？國外是否有相關規定？是否得以參照？若評估通過，在新政策落實以前，有無其他暫行替代手段，得優先監督並篩選夏令營等類似活動之活動計畫、活動人員資歷、安全維護等相關活動要件？","三、如何提升學習障礙者之保障？","(一)依據特殊教育法（下稱特教法）第三條可知，特殊教育身心障礙學生（下稱特教生）有多種類別，其中包含「學習障礙者」（下稱學障者）。112學年各級學校特教生為12萬4,548人，學障者則為4萬2,447人，占特教生比例34%，為所占比例最高項目，亦為10年來成長人數最多之類別。台灣針對學障者之鑑定標準較國外嚴格，據國外研究，學障比例介於人口數的5%至10%，故台灣相較國外，恐有低估學障者人數之憂慮。這些外表無法辨識、有學習障礙之學生，亦被稱作「隱形障礙者」。","(二)而屬於特教法適用之對象，並非同時屬於身心障礙者，並不受「身心障礙者權益保障法」（下稱身權法）等法律保障。即學障者係屬於特教法認定之某一身心障礙類別，並不當然屬於身權法第5條、第7條之可領有身心障礙證明之對象。在未來畢業求職之路途上，恐不利其就業機會，或其他身障者之福利保障。","(三)針對補足學障者之權益部分，勞動部於今年五月初放寬讓學障等特教生適用職務再設計，近期更預計再鬆綁職業輔導評量。請教教育部目前針對學障者數量逐年上升，有無進行分析並研析策進政策？學障者畢業前之職涯輔導有無特別規劃？又台灣評鑑學障者之標準是否需調整，以掌握最真實數量？以貫徹特教法之立法目的，使身心障礙國民均有接受適性及融合教育之權利。","四、速定營養午餐專法，降低營養午餐剩食率","(一)問題","1.根據媒體統計，六都近三年每天營養午餐平均廚餘量逾一公噸，新北去年日均廚餘量更達九點一公噸，占每日供應量百分之四點八，一年製造一八○○公噸廚餘。營養午餐居高不下的剩食率，不僅影響學生攝取營養，也造成備餐人員的壓力及處理廚餘的問題。","(二)要求","1.加強教育與宣導","營養教育：透過課程讓學生了解食品的珍貴和營養的重要性，從而減少浪費。學校可以舉辦專題講座或活動，強調食物浪費對環境和經濟的影響。","家庭教育：鼓勵家長在家中也進行相關教育，幫助孩子養成不浪費食物的習慣。","2.改善午餐供應系統","預測與調整供應量：利用數據分析工具來預測每天的需求，根據學生出席率和飲食偏好來調整供應量，減少過剩。","多樣化選擇：提供多種餐點選擇，讓學生可以根據自己的喜好選擇餐點，減少因不喜歡食物而造成的浪費。","靈活份量：允許學生選擇不同的份量，避免因標準份量過大而浪費。","3.優化食材管理","採購與儲存管理：改進食材的採購與儲存管理，確保食材的新鮮和使用效率。可以引入先進的庫存管理系統，避免食材過期。","廚餘再利用：設立廚餘回收站，將可再利用的廚餘轉化為堆肥，供學校菜園使用，或與有機農場合作，將廚餘轉化為動物飼料或堆肥。","4.加強監督與評估","廚餘統計與分析：定期統計並分析廚餘產生的原因和數量，找出主要浪費環節，制定針對性的改善措施。","績效評估：對學校的廚餘減少工作進行定期評估，設立獎懲機制，鼓勵學校積極參與廚餘減少活動。","5.社區與企業合作","企業支持：鼓勵企業參與學校午餐計劃，提供資金、技術支持，或推廣食物浪費減少的成功案例和技術。","社區參與：動員社區力量如志工，參與學校的廚餘管理和教育活動，形成全社會共同減少廚餘的氛圍。","五、提升代課教師基本待遇，提升教學環境","(一)問題","代課教師在教學現場亦擔負教學責任，允應思考如何提升其合理待遇，以利其專心教學品質。例如部分縣市代理教師年資不能累計，導致友代課教師二十多年間從未調薪。","(二)解決","2009年11月15日有新北代課教師聲請釋憲。憲法法庭於今年（2024）3月12日舉行此案的言詞辯論，最晚8月12日前宣判。教育部應盡快研擬釋憲後處理方式，例如未來新增預算等。"],["主席：第4位郭昱晴委員改書面質詢，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員郭昱晴書面質詢：","案由：本院委員郭昱晴有鑑於校園安全與學生輔導議題息息相關，教育部並於今年度針對校園霸凌事件提出新措施，將處理學生校園安全事件輔導機制提前置不良行為出現時，而現行三級輔導機制，未強化發展性輔導，針對第一線班級導師對學生輔導未考量其需要的時間與精力，綜觀學生輔導角度，不同間段學生問題並非相同，各級教師兼任班導師所需花時間不同，而各縣市班導師減課時數不一，是否影響到學生輔導權益，爰請行政院、教育部等相關部會重視相關議題，並提出改善方案。","說明：","一、教育部按照現行《學生輔導法》規定，持續增加輔導人力，並從原定120學年度提早至116學年度增加2,088名專輔教師，國中預計也在114學年度前增加53名專輔教師，大學則是已經補助預算降低人力比至1比900，也就是說900名學生會有1名專輔人力，原本則是1比1,200，但當初修正學生輔導法時尚未考量霸凌案件增加情況，從108年度霸凌案件通報案件為791件，12年暴增4倍至3,257件，再加入不良行為的輔導情況下，學校現場為如何兼顧學生輔導之品質，應再提高專輔人力，並考量偏鄉支援與負擔過重的問題。","二、現行的制度下，情緒障礙學生人數增加，但在財源不足的情況下，申請特教助理員時數時，會被排在中重症障礙學生之後，甚至完全沒有時數，對教師於授課時如有突發狀況難以應對，近期校園衝突案件多以情緒障礙情況為多，對此應提出具體改善措施，避免學生受教品質遭受影響。","三、再者，如學生障礙別未能申請全日特教助理員，家長如擔心學生在學校情況，只能申請入班，除學校不一定同意，即使入班也可能造成教師壓力，應提出相關配套措施。"],["主席：再接下來是登記第5位，請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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,{"start":309.42,"end":328.086,"text":"他們要準備這個學習歷程檔案但是他本身的課程就已經很多了那孩子們在這麼多課業反省當中他們沒辦法也不了解沒辦法準備所以就變成了這個是金錢的遊戲為什麼這樣說因為他要找補習班來教找補習班來教的話又發生了一個問題因為我們針對於弱勢會變成非常的不公平"},{"start":336.189,"end":358.785,"text":"因為是金錢遊戲嘛。他沒用金錢去準備補習班來教。他沒用金錢去找更多的課外活動。讓他的那個學習那個歷程檔案裡面更加的豐富。結果這個歷程檔案做出來了。是他的興趣嗎?是他要的嗎?我們打了很大的問號。所以外界、所以民眾還一直說必須要檢討改進。"},{"start":360.93,"end":361.17,"text":"因為他缺乏引導阿!"},{"start":382.805,"end":399.554,"text":"所以這一個部分我們也跟委員報告我們從青年暑假我們會加強這一方面不僅是高中三年級我們會到高二、高一、到國中甚至小學我們開始去跟教育現場包括跟家長分享"},{"start":401.935,"end":420.947,"text":"問題的癥結問題的重要因為你說從高中三年還不夠還要到國中還要到國小去他們一般說準備課的不管是雙女還是數女這個教育他們已經疲於奔命了你還要給他這個學習檔案他不是要怎麼去摸索你的利益良善要他找出他的興趣"},{"start":421.627,"end":421.827,"text":"所以部長我才說"},{"start":447.062,"end":447.082,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":474.431,"end":500.258,"text":"感謝委員的關心但是我要利用這個機會跟委員報告以臺大為例我們看到那一些透過推生透過這個學歷程檔案有更多的弱勢或者一般的學生他進入到臺大那這一個也是同時委員在關心的我們希望減少這個地線上這些學生或者家長他們不知道大學的教授他們在看什麼"},{"start":501.138,"end":529.733,"text":"所以我想我們在未來在這個溝通我們會...部長你的堅持但是我們一定要為學校為老師為學生都好我希望你出去通盤檢討該改的地方我們去改改一個適當的方式讓孩子真的適性洋財能夠學以致用不要讓他們疲於奔命那麼辛苦好不好好我們要努力我們又必須要通盤檢討要去改那接下來本席想請教"},{"start":531.554,"end":560.129,"text":"院長,你不要說學法嗎?學法是國家的通行語,你懂嗎?抱歉,這個還要學習。還要學習。本身是客家妹,所以我們非常重視客家語言。因為現在我們的客語瀕臨這個滅絕了,那我們客家人在全台灣來統計上大概有450萬人,但佔我們所有的"},{"start":561.474,"end":578.004,"text":"總人口數是第二大類的客家人,僅次於福老人。我們看到客語要頻頻滅絕了。院長,你雖然不會講客家話,但是你是政策的指導者,要怎麼做,要怎麼救呢?"},{"start":579.763,"end":592.194,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒克語也是台灣的國家語言之一我們在6月27號行政院會當中已經就國家語言研究發展中心的設置條例我記得那天在討論的時候現場"},{"start":594.645,"end":595.526,"text":"這非常重要啦。"},{"start":613.188,"end":630.293,"text":"議員長,109年的時候,我們人口跟我們住宅的普查報告,我們大概有客家族群有466萬人,但是使用客語的只有129萬人,不到三分之一,不到三分之一。那在全國來,總人口數也不到三分之一。"},{"start":631.693,"end":651.56,"text":"所以在110年全國客家人口進行我們語言的基礎資料的研究報告出來不管是聽的能力說的能力都是下降的尤其是在未到60歲的這個比較年長的家庭裡面他使用客語的不到一成"},{"start":652,"end":655.282,"text":"所以我們會從各方面來加強,包括剛剛說的國家語言研究發展中心,像這個設立之後"},{"start":680.134,"end":702.637,"text":"原住民族的各種語言,客語、台語,還有包括馬祖語等等,都會在裡面成為一個權力推動。我也相信客語絕對是相當重要保存的,因為人口數確實是多。是,院長,雖然在108課綱裡面本土語言裡有放進課綱,但是學習的人數還是下降。客語認證的人數雖然提高了,但是還是非常非常的少。那這一點就要請"},{"start":703.097,"end":728.217,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":728.357,"end":749.999,"text":"一百零七年的時候到現在七年的時間就為等國家語言發展中心的設置條例我們等了七年現在終於在上個月送進來了送進來了我們很高興說我們可以國家語言發展中心跟客語的發展中心可以併在一起來做但是文化部文化部的次長"},{"start":753.052,"end":774.694,"text":"文化部的次長李敬惠他在記者會裡面特別提到說這個國家語言研究發展中心會處理跨語言別跨領域的研究單一語言但是客家化原住民要回原單位院長部長"},{"start":777.882,"end":805.078,"text":"國家語言基本法為了客語發展中心等了7年等到今天的結果又說要回到原單位回到客委會去我們白等白耗了白耗了這7年的時間讓我們客語沒辦法去發展嗎既然叫做國家語言研究發展中心那國家語言各個語言都算嘛國家語言的定義就非常清楚所以客語要放進去啊當時告訴我們說客語就可以併進來所以我們等了7年"},{"start":805.95,"end":823.246,"text":"結果現在設置條例通過了就是說又回到原單位又繞回去原單位讓我們客語的發展白白耗費了這7年的時間所以在這邊拜託院長雖然你不會講客家話我相信你會支持客家的語言的發展不要讓它滅絕"},{"start":824.427,"end":844.426,"text":"現在這個設置條例已經通過了趕快把我們刻意的研究發展不要讓這語言來做一個凋零的情形發生好不好我們會讓這個研究發展中心將來很健全的發展同時不只在這裡我希望各個學校的教育適合的地區地點都應該把刻意融入成一個教材讓我們刻意繼續傳送下去"},{"start":846.408,"end":865.909,"text":"接下來本席要跟院長請教的就是說我們龍科三期的進度因為這個在前年的時候在前行政院長蘇貞昌啟動了龍科三期因為龍科三期前面有一期跟二期這個都非常的成功所以我們相信三期的推動是不會有問題的"},{"start":866.87,"end":888.189,"text":"但是當時因為這個土地徵收的範圍沒有確定性也跟地方疏於溝通所以造成了一個很大的反彈那後來呢桃園市政府跟我們柯管局跟本溪跟地方慢慢的溝通終於獲得到共識了雖然是徵收土地的範圍面積減少了但是"},{"start":888.809,"end":910.514,"text":"大家都樂觀其成,所以大概是本席聽到,聽到說我們行政院要來做溝通跟協調,請問協調了沒有?報告委員,我們新竹科學人氣管理局跟桃園市政府現在正在...我是聽說行政院要出面協調嘛,那協調了嗎?現在有進度嗎?大概什麼時候?現在桃園市政府在重新劃定範圍,因為看...範圍已經出來了?"},{"start":918.643,"end":919.083,"text":"德隆國小"},{"start":930.885,"end":931.505,"text":"所以他們正在選票"},{"start":959.577,"end":959.597,"text":"好!謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"154434","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154434","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a15470611a08e17dfd0c02c12d918673f79f1bad52d3b6009b743a5d303fbad1cac0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"14:30:26 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14:44:21","影片長度":"00:13:55","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T14:30:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T14:44:21+08:00","duration":835,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（14時30分）感謝院長、感謝各部會的官員、在場的立委同仁以及現場的各位媒體先進。我請院長以及鄭部長、李部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長，以及教育部、文化部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：丁委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：院長好、兩位部長好。首先在這裡先請院長和兩位部長看一下我們在地裝置藝術的影片。","（播放影片）"],["丁委員學忠：跟院長報告，這是我們虎尾圓環的素還真裝置藝術，我們也邀請到鋼雕大師楊柏林將它打造成一個觀光景點，這是我們虎尾的地標，也是很多布袋戲迷打卡的地點，創造了很多觀光經濟。","在這裡要跟院長報告，布袋戲是我們的國民傳統藝術，雲林縣是布袋戲的故鄉，有全臺最多的127個立案的布袋戲團，還有3個布袋戲的拍片場，讓這項在地傳統藝術也走向國際化。這幾年來我們推動布袋戲向下札根，在學校培育超過一萬二千多位學生來學習布袋戲，戲團為了布袋戲也注入很多的創新元素，而且我們素還真的布袋戲也拍成電影，還獲得金馬獎的最佳造型設計獎，讓全世界看到臺灣的傳統藝術文化發展，這在其他傳統藝術項目中是比較少見的。","在這裡我要請教李部長，部長是一個作家，也曾經當過媒體的總經理，你身為一個文化人也是媒體人，我相信布袋戲文化是臺灣人40年代、50年代、60年代的共同回憶，但是今年雲林縣藝文教育扎根發展計畫的補助已經被文化部砍了一半的經費，刪減到剩下350萬元，而且文化部還宣布今年不補助國際偶戲節的經費，有關這個部分，請李部長能說明一下。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。其實我小時候就是看布袋戲，我昨天去看了一個戲劇叫做勸世三姊妹，就是用雲林作為一個傳統戲劇的中心，票賣得很好，但是我們整個……"],["丁委員學忠：住在虎寮的那個就對了。"],["李部長遠：是，所以這個部分請你放心，文化部投資在傳統戲曲上大概有五億多，前面的計畫2年大概有3,800萬，最近有一個計畫是四千多萬，所以沒有去砍預算的問題。"],["丁委員學忠：沒有去砍預算的問題？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["丁委員學忠：所以部長確定會繼續支持我們雲林縣的布袋戲？"],["李部長遠：是，我全力支持，因為布袋戲對臺灣來講……"],["丁委員學忠：過去5年文化部補助我們雲林的國際偶戲節差不多有2,000萬元左右的經費，吸引了全世界的布袋戲迷在國際偶戲節的時候來到虎尾參加活動，對於這個成功的活動，我相信部長也希望中央注入經費後可以讓這個活動辦得更加成功，而且可以繼續延續下去，不要因為經費的問題而讓這個成功的活動斷掉，這不是我們所期待的，也不是我們政府對於文化推動所想要做的事情。拜託我們部長，能延續過去的政策，支持我們雲林布袋戲的向下扎根計畫以及國際偶戲節的經費，這樣好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好。因為布袋戲對臺灣文化來講，國際推廣其實是最重要的，這個沒問題。"],["丁委員學忠：好，感謝部長，有你這句承諾，我就放心了。","在這裡要請教教育部鄭部長，114年全國運動會的主辦單位是我們雲林縣，距今剩下差不多一年的時間，需要教育部的諸多協助，不管是行政的部分，還是軟體維護的部分，我們地方的需求差不多要2億6,000萬左右的經費，我們聽說教育部好像沒辦法幫助這些經費還是怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：抱歉！向委員報告，其實針對114年全國運動會的場館修繕，我們體育署已經編了1億的經費；另外，運動場館相關經費的部分，我們也有1億5,000萬的預算，所以基本上大概跟委員所關心的，有關雲林縣的運動場館……"],["丁委員學忠：部長，我剛才跟你討論的是行政跟軟體維護的部分，不是場館設置的部分，如果場館設置部分只給我們1億，那麼我們雲林縣就倒閉了，因為場館設置總共要二十幾億耶。"],["鄭部長英耀：不是，我們是維修，因為114年，如同剛才委員說的，我們雲林要辦全國運動會，所以在場館的修繕，包括相關的環境……"],["丁委員學忠：行政、軟體維護的部分……"],["鄭部長英耀：是、是、是，大概就是委員所關心的那些，和剛才說的數目不會差太遠。"],["丁委員學忠：不會差太遠？我們需要2億6,000萬，不會差太遠啦？好啦，不足的部分，拜託部長再多幫我們一下。至於運動場館設施的部分，我們報起來是21億，據了解教育部這邊有可能會補助16億，差不多16億，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：向委員報告，基本上現在整個計畫也正好還在申請，我們希望能夠整體來考量。"],["丁委員學忠：整體考量？部長，剩下一年的時間，我們雲林縣全體縣民全部都動起來，來迎接114年的全國運動會，我們也非常期待，當然，全國運動會辦得好，雲林縣人有面子，我們中央也有面子，畢竟這是全國的運動會，並不是雲林縣的運動會，所以需要教育部大力來支持我們。場館設置的部分，我知道我們地方上的需求是21億，據了解我們教育部這裡有可能會幫忙我們16億，其他還有5億的部分說是停車場的部分，據說已交給交通部這邊來協助。停車場的部分，是不是可以請我們教育部長這邊可以積極跟交通部聯繫，確實可以爭取到這筆經費，讓我們的建設不要中斷而可以持續延續，在114年全國運動會開辦之前都可以順利地完工，是不是可以這樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們和地方一定是合作的，所以向委員報告，這個目標和方向就是我們要一起努力做的。"],["丁委員學忠：再麻煩了。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們請教育部、交通部看一下縣政府的請增經費總數，如果有一些是地方自治事項，該地方處理的，我們來做一些協調，中央一定全力要一起合力來辦好這個全運會。"],["丁委員學忠：好，剛好院長也講話了，我也要拜託院長一件事情，我們雲林縣屬於比較偏鄉的學校很多，一些體育設施都非常非常的不完善，有很多的體育設施不好，所以孩子在運動的時候很容易受傷，我們也希望孩子在運動場所運動時，設施可以好一點，讓他們增強身體健康，減少運動傷害。對於偏鄉學校的運動設施，我們行政院是不是能夠全力幫忙教育部、幫忙體育署，給他們更多的經費可以針對我們偏鄉的運動設施來改善，這樣好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我再請教育部跟縣政府去現場看或是綜合性的評估一下。"],["丁委員學忠：是，我們要顧到孩子。"],["卓院長榮泰：在地方自治事項之外，中央政府應該來協助的，我們也會為小孩子的安全問題來著想。"],["丁委員學忠：是，我們顧到小孩，對長輩也要照顧，我在這裡要先感謝體育署補助我們口湖鄉的樂齡運動館。我們雲林縣在偏鄉的地方老年化比較嚴重，有很多長輩平常都是在樹下下棋，不然就是坐在廟口，如果有一個好的運動設施可以讓他們強身健骨，養成良好的運動習慣，保持身體的健康，我相信這也是我們大家非常樂見的。我們的東勢鄉及北港鎮都有申請到老人的樂齡運動館，就是希望能夠透過專業教練來訓練長輩做健康的運動，讓他們的身體更加勇健，這樣他們的孩子也都一定會很歡喜，是不是對這兩個案子都可以全力支持我們？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們從小孩到老人整體性的社會福利安全都必須要全面的顧慮到，不論它將來是不是一個長照機構或是一個社區活動中心的整個補助跟輔導，我們會全力來研究怎麼樣來加強。"],["丁委員學忠：好，感謝院長。在上禮拜五剛好也是這個時間點，下午第一個質詢的也是我，上禮拜五剛好是我的生日，院長是不是可以給我生日願望？"],["卓院長榮泰：天天快樂！"],["丁委員學忠：不是天天快樂，是要支持我們雲林縣的建設，這樣我就會快樂，這樣好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["丁委員學忠：我拜託院長可以針對我們上禮拜所說的水利建設以及農業的問題，以及今天所說的我們傳統文化的推動，還有所有的體育設施，不管是我們的小孩、長輩，我們要舉辦全國運動會，我們這裡有很多體育設施需要教育部、需要中央來協助，院長是不是可以協助我們雲林縣來完成？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員今天對文化……"],["丁委員學忠：這是我的生日願望喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員對文化、對小朋友、對老人家的關心，我記得在50年前，現在最深刻的記憶，就是在半夜起來看棒球賽，在中午的時候看布袋戲，這都是陪著我們這些小孩子成長的。"],["丁委員學忠：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以針對要如何保存、提升向國際來推銷臺灣文化，我想政府一定會跟委員同時來進行。"],["丁委員學忠：院長過去也曾擔任過民意代表，我相信你一定是很接地氣，因為接地氣，所以你也瞭解地方的需求，我說的這些就真真正正是地方的需求，我也是從基層起來的，我也是非常的希望，既然都來到立法院了，我希望可以多多替我們雲林縣所有的鄉親、所有各項的事務盡我全部的責任來協助，也需要中央政府全力來幫忙我們，好不好？院長，感謝你！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，希望在委員明年生日時，我們雲林的布袋戲中心可以有一個很清楚的進度，讓你過一個快樂的生日。"],["丁委員學忠：不只是布袋戲，還有各項建設，不只是布袋戲而已。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["丁委員學忠：感謝院長，感謝兩位部長，謝謝！"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝丁學忠委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、兩位部長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第2位呂玉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.56159375,"end":8.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.78909375,"end":20.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.719718750000002,"end":22.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.62659375,"end":23.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.12846875,"end":24.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.934093750000002,"end":27.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.72971875,"end":49.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.570968750000006,"end":56.460968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.93346875,"end":59.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.375968750000006,"end":62.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.41346875000001,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.02909375,"end":67.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.47034375,"end":80.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.94659375,"end":83.83221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.03471875000001,"end":189.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.28409375,"end":199.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":199.62846875000002,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":203.56034375000002,"end":206.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":206.56409375,"end":210.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":210.91784375,"end":214.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":214.81596875000002,"end":216.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.67659375000002,"end":219.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":219.43971875000003,"end":221.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":222.13971875000001,"end":223.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":224.01284375,"end":229.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":229.31159375000001,"end":232.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":232.87221875,"end":235.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":235.82534375,"end":238.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.77846875,"end":246.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":245.00534375,"end":247.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":247.67159375000003,"end":249.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.78971875000002,"end":297.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":250.30409375000002,"end":250.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.71471875000003,"end":295.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.81596875,"end":295.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.88346875,"end":295.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.95096875,"end":295.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.28409375,"end":298.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.36409375,"end":304.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":304.97909375,"end":312.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.50221875,"end":305.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.61534375,"end":312.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.52221875000004,"end":328.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.41846875000005,"end":338.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.96534375000005,"end":341.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.58471875000004,"end":344.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.76159375000003,"end":348.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.02721875000003,"end":350.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":352.09409375,"end":364.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":364.34534375000004,"end":375.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":376.02284375000005,"end":382.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.52846875,"end":380.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.54534375000003,"end":384.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":387.48096875000005,"end":388.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.70846875,"end":391.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.02471875000003,"end":398.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":398.07846875,"end":412.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.23034375000003,"end":398.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.31784375,"end":405.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.41846875000005,"end":411.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.54471875,"end":412.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":412.59096875,"end":419.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.60784375000003,"end":413.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.57721875000004,"end":439.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.46846875000006,"end":442.57784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":446.20596875,"end":449.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":449.81721875000005,"end":460.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.75784375,"end":451.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.77471875000003,"end":452.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.89159375,"end":476.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","star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去砍預算的問題,那副長就是確定會繼續支持我們的明顯的古代性。對,過去5年,我們文化部補助我們訓練這個國際奧細節,才有兩千萬的周瑜的經費,這起因就全世界古代性。"},{"start":261.69,"end":271.414,"text":"當國是有事的時候都來跟我們合夥來參加這個活動。而這個成功的活動,我相信我們補充也希望說我們中央自律經費的療養,可以讓這個活動完成後,成功,我們想要繼續把它延續下去。我要說,因為這個經費的問題,把這個成功的活動抓好十年,這不是我們所期待的,也不是我們政府對著這個文化推動所想要做的事情。"},{"start":291.882,"end":300.246,"text":"拜託我們保證,希望可以演習到過去這個政策,支持我們訓練這個古代式的鄉下雜耕計畫,以及我們國是、國際奧士節的經費,這樣好不好?因為布袋宜對台灣文化來講,國際推廣其實是最重要的議員,再沒問題。"},{"start":312.671,"end":323.334,"text":"好,感謝博長有你這句承諾,我就放鬆了。在這,要請教教育部的政府長。當2014年,我們全國運動會主管單位是當我們副領館。我們存在超過一年的時間,需要我們教育國家制的一個協助。不管是當行政的國分,還是兩體維護的國分,我們地方的訴求才要兩億。"},{"start":344.622,"end":349.238,"text":"阿...咱教育部那全部發動到三天到這間會阿是阿哪?"},{"start":352.165,"end":358.01,"text":"向委員報告,其實在醫術全國運動會場館的修繕,體育署已經有1億的經費,另外在相關運動場館的經費也有預算1億5千萬,所以大概是"},{"start":376.147,"end":377.189,"text":"基本上含咱委員所關心的這﹐有關這一個﹐"},{"start":389.801,"end":399.043,"text":"場館設置的國分,我們場館設置的國分是一個國分,我們分就到了。對啊,這場館設置都要20多億的。不是,我們是維修,因為一、四年我們婚姻投訴委員過嘛,我們要辦那個全國運動會,所以在這個場館的修繕,包括相關的環境,行政、軟體維護的國分。大概就是委員所關心的投訴所講的那個掃墨、啊、沒擦蓋風啦。"},{"start":419.628,"end":427.292,"text":"未查解封,我們需要的2億6千萬未查解封。對啦,副校會報分,拜託補充又給我們倒三天。但這個運動經常設施,我們顧起來是21億,21億啦。如果了解說我們教育顧家有可能會工作16億,找到16億,為什麼這樣?"},{"start":446.263,"end":464.28,"text":"我們基本上向委員報告就是說我們現在整個計劃裡面也現在剛才在這個在申請我們在希望能夠整體來考量整體考量副長剩下一年的時間我們雲林縣整個"},{"start":466.983,"end":467.003,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":509.889,"end":510.109,"text":"﹚丁學忠委員﹚"},{"start":540.751,"end":542.333,"text":"報告委員我們請教育部、交通部看一下這個"},{"start":556.694,"end":575.16,"text":"縣政府的請贈經費,總數,那如果有一些是地方自治事項該地方助理的,我們來做一些協調。那中央一定全力,一起合力來辦好這個全運會。阿剛好院長也說過,我也要拜託院長一件事。我們福林縣小一級偏鄉的學校很多。"},{"start":576.6,"end":576.76,"text":"﹚丁學忠"},{"start":606.24,"end":611.584,"text":"我再請教育部跟縣政府去現場或是綜合性的評估一下在地方知識事項之外 中央政府應該來協助的我們一起為小孩子的安全問題來著想"},{"start":628.678,"end":633.444,"text":"我們國中的孩子,我們市長也要顧啦。我直接要先感謝我們體育署來補助我們高雄鄉的熱領運動館。當然我們婦人館的健身的地方,老人化比較嚴重。"},{"start":645.057,"end":645.317,"text":"﹚丁學忠﹚"},{"start":670.123,"end":679.506,"text":"他們都有申請到我們這個老人熱靈的運動館,老人熱靈運動館,是希望說可以透過專業的教練來教到我們一些中國的師大做這個健康的運動,可以讓他們身體更加健康。這孩子是誰都一定會比較高興,希望這個案件希望都可以全力來給我們支持。"},{"start":694.384,"end":714.655,"text":"我們從小孩到老人整體性的社會福利安全都必須要全面的顧慮到,那無論是他將來是不是一個長照機構或是一個在社區的活動中心的一個整個補助跟輔導,我們全力來研究怎麼樣來加強。感謝院長,上禮拜五剛才也是這個時間第一次第一年也是我出席了。上禮拜五剛好我生日,要想院長可以給我生日願望。"},{"start":724.554,"end":731.036,"text":"天天快樂不是天天快樂支持我們因應縣因應縣的建設我就會快樂這樣好不好這樣拜託我們議長可以將對我們定例外所說的我們這個水利的建設以及我們農業的問題跟今天所說的我們這個傳統文化的推動跟這個體育設施我們所有的體育實施副關係我們孩子如果中規範我們的這個全國運動會"},{"start":752.022,"end":753.744,"text":"謝謝委員對文化、小朋友、老大人的關心。"},{"start":770.943,"end":786.478,"text":"五十年前現在最有記憶的也是半夜去看野球,還是中午去看布袋戲,這都是小孩子陪著我們成長的。所以如果要如何保存、提升,向國際來推銷台灣文化,我是認為政府一定要委員同時來進行。"},{"start":787.199,"end":800.446,"text":"我相信我們院長過去我擔任國民意代表你一定是很接地氣接地氣你也了解到地方的訴求所以我說的這就是真正這是地方的訴求我們也是有記者起來我們也是非常希望說"},{"start":803.567,"end":811.411,"text":"我既然來到這裡,來到立法院,我可以多多來替我們訓練官、我們所有鄉親、所有國防事務,來請我總部的一個職人來協助。也要我們中央政府來轉移,來幫我們倒三槓。好不好?院長,感謝你。好,希望滿年四日,我們這個訓練部隊的中心,可以有一個很清楚的"},{"start":824.839,"end":825.099,"text":"感謝院長,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154433","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154433","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a1547464cc06297129ca72c12d918673f79f1ea54be415f02ab41574b4901b66d94185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:53:43 - 12:09:44","影片長度":"00:16:01","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T11:53:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T12:09:44+08:00","duration":961,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時53分）謝謝主席，我請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長好。我想今天是財政部門的質詢，所以大家大概都focus在財劃法，我想問一下院長，財劃法對你來說是該修還是不該修？還是那個「羞」？"],["卓院長榮泰：我的想法是在現行的財劃法底下，我們中央逐年對地方補助再增加，照這樣的方式繼續來行使……"],["黃委員珊珊：我只問您的個人看法，25年了，該修還是不該修？這張照片如果印象沒有錯的話，是2012年蘇貞昌主席帶著賴清德市長還有民進黨團的總召，他們召集的一個立法院的記者會，也就是提出修法版本。如果該修而沒有修──就剛剛講的沒有共識，所以一直都沒有修過，我想請問一下，如果現在的制度很好，為什麼91年游錫堃院長提？96年張俊雄院長提？97年賴清德市長跟柯建銘任立委的時候提？然後101年潘孟安立委跟柯建銘又提版本？","所以我們想問一下，落實地方自治、充實地方財源，這是不是民主進步黨執政的理想？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，我們現在還是以均衡臺灣的理念來做。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果要修，大家要有共識。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以財政健全、落實地方自治，是每一個民主國家政府應該要捍衛的權利，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，這個財劃法大家都說它是一個魔戒，開玩笑說國民黨執政了國民黨也不想修，當民進黨執政之後，民進黨想修是在他們在野的時候，當拿到執政權一樣，所謂的集錢又集權，所以讓這個魔戒一直脫不下來。我今天要跟院長討論，我也相信這是大家的信仰，我們也希望地方政府很清楚地知道它有多少財源，要去努力它的地方財源、它要得到合理分配、它要看到公開的資訊，甚至比較透明的方案，我覺得這個是財劃法的精神。","所以，我要跟院長說一下，這個信仰從民進黨執政之前，2011年陳其邁、現在的市長說：不可以讓中央政府再用空頭支票來騙人民。當時的民進黨主席蘇貞昌說：國家領導人沒有長遠的眼光，起碼要有解決現在眼前問題的能力。下一個是柯建銘總召：財劃法是立法院黨團永遠的第一優先法案，25年了，好像都是他第一優先法案，但是今年突然變成不是了。2012年的臺南市長賴清德、現在的賴總統，他說：任何負責任的總統，都不應該把關係地方發展的法律放在一邊不管。這是民主進步黨在2012年說的話。","所以我再問一次院長，這也是你的信仰嗎？這也是你們希望能夠落實、包括解決眼前的問題、包括國家領導人長遠的眼光？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是，我們希望均衡臺灣，就是讓各地都能夠得到充足而且必要的一些經費，而且不能原來好的越來越好，就是它強任它強，這樣絕對不行。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，要讓它公平跟合理，我們沒有要求強者恆強。"],["卓院長榮泰：原來已經太好的，就不能越來越好。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，所以大家要有一個方案，剛剛講的是過去，我們看看最近。最近的是去年12月，賴清德總統的官方網站裡面講得非常的清楚，院長，你也有參與他的總統選舉，這個是賴清德總統的國家希望工程其中的一部分，檢討統籌分配款的模式還有檢討地方稅法通則，這個是落實增加分配公平性跟充實地方財源，分配公式要多元、客觀的地方特色指標，跟我們講的都一樣。","所以我再問你一次，你們行政院要不要提出自己的版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為現在的版本是經過多年共識執行下來，以這個來討論……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你覺得現在版本已經最好的版本？那你們為什麼提了4次的修法案？"],["卓院長榮泰：過去？"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以它都遇到了相當的困難，共識無法達成。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們要修法的立場改變了，不要修了是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對中央、地方合作跟均衡臺灣的立場絕對不會改變。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我再問院長一次，賴清德總統的政見，卓院長要不要落實嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：他的政策我們都……"],["黃委員珊珊：卓院長要不要提出？行政院就賴清德總統這兩句話，應該要怎麼樣落實在未來你的執政上面？我只是問這件事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：總統的政見，我們逐步在落實。"],["黃委員珊珊：會落實？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個內容就是我們如何在一般跟特別統籌分配款當中……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你要檢討分配款的模式，但不用修法？"],["卓院長榮泰：做合理的……"],["黃委員珊珊：你要檢討地方稅則通則，不用修法，只是檢討而已？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以在一般跟特別分配稅款當中，做合理的分配跟落實使用。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我今天就是要確認，卓院長要落實但是不修法，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為現在的法令，已經是中央地方合作的一個共同的經驗。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果現在的法律這麼棒，民進黨當年就不用提了4次的修法，這4次修法強調的都是一樣「改變垂直分配，檢討水平分配」。","我現在給院長看一下，你們的版本跟現行法的版本，還有國民黨版，以及民眾黨版的比較，這4次民進黨的提案，其實與現行版……我們民眾黨版本跟民進黨版本是最像的。第一，營業稅全部給地方，這是歷年來民進黨的主張，菸酒稅全部給地方，這也是歷年來民進黨的主張。有關所得稅的分配，包括最後一次柯建銘跟潘孟安的提案，他們提的比民眾黨的提案還要兇啊！從10%變20%。我的意思是說，這幾乎都是大家長期以來有共識的範圍。","第二個部分，台灣民眾黨的版本很清楚，跟民進黨的版本一樣，我們希望能夠納入地方還有專家學者的意見，我們希望成立分配委員會，當時民進黨的版本也希望納入地方以及學者專家的意見，這次的版本其實跟民進黨的版本比較雷同。","我再問一次，院長，你們對以前民進黨版本的這幾個原則──營業稅下放地方、菸酒稅下放地方、成立專家學者以及地方代表加入分配原則的檢討，您個人支持嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，在現行的財劃法底下，我們都願意聆聽各方的意見，有機會可以共同討論……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們講了半天，你們還是不修法，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現行的版本足以讓我們對地方做實質的幫忙……"],["黃委員珊珊：剛剛林德福委員講得很清楚，財政委員會建請在下個會期之前能夠看到行政院的版本，行政院的立場到今天為止，您上任後我們看到的是民進黨黨團代替行政院發言說：民進黨不提版本、民進黨不提行政院版本。到今天為止，依然是這個立場嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我的想法一直很一致啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：民進黨的執政黨不提，民進黨黨團也不提，所以財政委員會審議的不會有行政院版本，目前你的答案是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：現行的版本就是我們的想法。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，其實我蠻失望的，因為提出一個修正版本並沒有干涉或影響到中央的權限，但是你們有態度、有方式把合理的部分……我剛剛講的，沒有人要去製造中央跟地方的對立，我們只是希望它更合理、公開跟透明，也給地方表達意見的機會，現在基本上都是中央集錢、集權，到今天為止25年沒修，我們就是希望你們能把魔戒暫時脫下來，聽聽大家的意見。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，報告委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，您現在說的話，2個月後的下一個會期可能會有很大的衝突，如果可以的話，我們希望你們還是審慎討論行政院要提出的修正版本，不管怎麼樣，好的版本我們也會支持你們……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，委員能夠參考一下8年來刪除這樣的補助款當中對地方實質增加了3,400億，這個努力的過程……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，增加錢不等於現在的財劃法是好的版本，增加的預算是因為各種不同的因素而增加了地方的補助。沒錯，中央的財政不錯，現在就跟你說了……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在的財劃法是一個可以執行的版本，如何讓它執行得更好，我們可以共同來討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們連續6年都有財政賸餘，民眾黨的版本算得很清楚，在不影響中央的運作之下，每年的歲入歲出的盈餘大概就是2,000億，所以我們提出垂直分配釋出的金額大概也是2,000億。第一，不影響中央的運作；第二，落實地方自治的精神；第三，納入地方的意見。定出公開透明的分配方式，這是我們的希望，我們提出來也希望行政院能夠聽進去，這個版本也希望院長能好好參考一下。","回到剛剛看到的，賴清德總統在大選官網所示，符合這個原則下，希望行政院針對怎麼落實必須要提出自己的立場，否則我們在立法院有一個可能性……上次在這邊跟院長討論，最近大家都在上憲法課，會不會民進黨團總召又說，只要是在野黨提出的財劃法版本又是違憲？會不會？"],["卓院長榮泰：看版本裡面的內容是怎麼樣……"],["黃委員珊珊：要看內容？所以我們的版本如果跟當年民進黨黨團的一模一樣就不違憲了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是財政紀律法是有所改變的。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以重點是希望提不提版本不要成為行政院行政怠惰的藉口，不要成為將來又要去覆議、釋憲的藉口，如果行政院現在態度是──我們不提版本，你們提了就是違憲，接下來就是覆議，再來就是釋憲──臺灣將永無寧日啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望能夠多多溝通……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我希望你們有版本的理由是，希望行政院能夠正面面對財劃法必須修正的事實，而且我想也是各縣市政府、各政黨目前的共識，好嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是回到……"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得你審慎思考一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：希望大院朝野黨團有一個討論，能夠實質討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們現在就是希望，我們在跟民進黨團討論啊，就是在等財政部的版本，但財政部到今天為止都不回答我。"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院的立場就是我們現行的版本是可以執行的，但是我們可以討論怎麼樣讓它更合理。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒關係啦！我在想我們不影響你們運作的情況下。","接下來我要問的是覆議的標準在哪裡？剛剛講，如果你們認為我們不合理的或是行政院沒有立場的，你們都認為是違憲嘛！都認為是窒礙難行嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：窒礙難行有一定的……"],["黃委員珊珊：違憲就是窒礙難行，違憲是由行政院說了算？"],["卓院長榮泰：違憲當然窒礙難行，但窒礙難行不一定違憲。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，所以不一定每一個案子都違憲。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是你們認為違憲就違憲？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，這要經過憲法法庭來做訴訟。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我們最近在上憲法課，突然間臺灣大家都變成憲法專家，第一，違憲就一定窒礙難行嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為是。"],["黃委員珊珊：你們認為是？所以只要你們認為違憲的，就會提覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：就無法執行，不能……"],["黃委員珊珊：就無法執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：不能在沒有憲法依據下做任何的依法行政。"],["黃委員珊珊：憲法第七十條現在是柯總召朗朗上口的，主要是規定「立法院對於行政院所提預算案，不得為增加支出之提議」，所以只要有提出預算的增加，就是違憲，對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是行政院的立場還是柯總召的立場？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是憲法的立場。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是憲法的立場，所以預算案，你們認為這個當然沒有問題，但是法律案呢？法律案，我們現在的憲法第七十條是預算案不得為增加支出的提議，大法官會議解釋得很清楚是預算案，現在我要問的是法律案，法律增加支出到底是不是窒礙難行、是不是違憲？這邊有幾個，一個是原住民的禁伐補償，目前是行政院沒有版本，立法院提案通過了；村里長事務費提高到5萬，這個沒有行政院的版本，通過了；去年上一屆立法院新設國際事務處、增加了預算，沒有行政院提案，通過了。請問行政院有沒有覆議？要不要釋憲？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們經過跟憲法、公法學者的討論，就是把預算……"],["黃委員珊珊：這些不用釋憲？這些不用覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：雖然不是預算案，把預算直接進到法律，預算入法，就有可能牽涉到憲法的精神。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以就可能違憲？那剛剛這3個要不要覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為……"],["黃委員珊珊：要不要覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為這可能有侵犯憲法之虞，所以透過專家學者，我們考慮是不是就憲政秩序來做一個解釋。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，院長，我現在就可以告訴你，所有的立法委員都會提出相關所謂的福國利民──不是減少人民的負擔，就是增加政府的支出，每一個計畫、每一個提案都牽涉到預算，所以你要對所有的法律案都用這樣的態度嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是如果把實質的預算金額直接入法，那就是一個可以爭議的地方。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望你的標準可以一致，入法就這樣，所以以後我們不能通過任何法？因為只要你們不同意……"],["卓院長榮泰：預算金額直接入法。"],["黃委員珊珊：喔，好，所以財劃法不會違法？不會違憲？你也不知道？"],["卓院長榮泰：財劃法是中央地方權限的合理分配，財劃法一方面是錢的問題，一方面是事責的問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：好啦，院長，我們今天不討論憲法，我要講的是行政院的標準一致就好，否則以後立法院提出任何福國利民的法案都可能違憲。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會這樣子。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後我想問一個有關融資公司的問題，大家有看到了嘛，現在很多融資公司用各種手續費、代辦費、違約金讓實際利率超過法定利率，但是沒有人管，我只想問接下去，當年張俊雄擔任行政院長的時候其實就訂定過所謂的融資公司法，雖然沒有通過，但是他當時就訂定了金管會是相關主管機關，目前為止臺灣所有的融資公司沒人管，叫做經濟部管，經濟部管就等於沒有人管。然後現在金管會是透過證期局說那些是上市公司，所以對那幾家來做管理，其他都不管，所以我想問一下，院長，管不管？"],["卓院長榮泰：金管會負起監督、管理的責任。"],["黃委員珊珊：你要不要管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我們現在就是按照，我們依法來管理，誠如委員剛才講的，我們先透過這些上市櫃公司的自律規範來管理……"],["黃委員珊珊：金管會最好去制定一個專法來好好的管！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分我們有針對各國的規定在做研議。"],["黃委員珊珊：盡快吧，謝謝院長！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個部分我們一定會嚴加管理，謝謝！"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長！","報告院會，財政組之質詢已詢答完畢。","本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。","下午2時30分繼續開會，進行教育及文化組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（12時9分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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增加錢不等於現在的財化法是好的版本,增加的預算是因為各種不同的因素而增加了地方的補助,沒錯。"},{"start":547.774,"end":577.437,"text":"中央的財政不錯,現在就跟你說了,現在的財政不錯,我們每6年,我們連續6年都有財政剩餘,民眾黨的版本算得很清楚,我們在不影響中央的運作之下,每年的稅出稅出的盈餘大概就是2000億,所以我們提出的垂直分配釋出的金額大概也是2000億,第一,不影響中央的運作,第二,落實地方自治的精神,第三,納入地方的意見,訂出公開透明的"},{"start":577.978,"end":596.698,"text":"﹗"},{"start":597.028,"end":624.229,"text":"要怎麼落實必須要提出自己的議場,否則我們在立法院有一個可能性啊,因為上次在這邊跟院長討論最近大家都在上憲法課,會不會民進黨團總召又說了只要是在野黨提出的才化法版本又是違憲,會不會?要看內容,所以我們的版本如果跟當年的民進黨團的一模一樣就不違憲了嗎?"},{"start":625.68,"end":631.466,"text":"但是財政紀律法是有所改變的。是,所以重點是我們希望行政院"},{"start":632.489,"end":659.591,"text":"提不提版本不要成為你們行政怠惰的藉口不要成為將來又要去復議釋憲的藉口如果行政院現在的態度是我不提版本你們提了就是違憲然後接下來我就是復議再過來我就是釋憲臺灣將永無明日啊院長我希望你們有版本的理由是希望行政院能夠正面的面對才化法必須修正的事實"},{"start":660.592,"end":686.992,"text":"而且也是我想也是各縣市政府還有到目前為止各黨的共識。好嗎院長?我覺得你審慎思考一下。我們現在就是希望我們正在跟民進黨團討論啊那就是等財政部的版本啊但財政部到今天為止都不回答我。行政院的立場就是說我們現行的版本是可以執行的"},{"start":687.432,"end":700.513,"text":"但是我們可以討論怎麼樣讓他更合理。我們不影響你們的運作的情況下接下來我要問說復議的標準在哪裡?剛剛講如果你們認為我們不合理的或者是行政院沒有立場的你們都認為是違憲嗎?都認為是至愛難行嗎?"},{"start":703.403,"end":729.397,"text":"自然難行它有一定的在……所以違憲就自然難行,但違憲是由行政院說了算。違憲當然自然難行,但自然難行不一定違憲。對,所以不一定每一個案子都違憲。是的。但是你們認為違憲就違憲。不是,這要經過憲法法庭來做訴訟。好,我們現在最近在上憲法課,我們突然間臺灣大家都在變成憲法專家。第一,違憲不等於……違憲就一定自然難行嗎?"},{"start":730.971,"end":758.17,"text":"我們認為是。你們認為是。所以只要你們認為違憲的就無法執行。就無法執行。不能在沒有憲法的依據下做任何的違法行政。憲法70條現在是柯總召嚷嚷上口的。只要是立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出的倡提議。只要有提出預算的增加就是違憲。對嗎?是的。這是行政院的立場還是柯總召的立場?這是憲法的立場。這是憲法的立場。所以預算案你們認為這個當然沒有問題。但是"},{"start":761.052,"end":789.361,"text":"法律案呢?法律案。我們現在憲法70條是預算案不得為增加支出的提議。大法官會解釋很清楚叫預算案。現在我要問的是法律案。法律增加支出到底是不是治安難行?是不是違憲?這邊有幾個。一個是原住民的進法補償。目前是行政院沒有版本。立法院提案。通過了。然後村里長事務被提高到5萬。這個沒有行政院的版本。通過了。"},{"start":789.966,"end":815.766,"text":"那去年上一屆立法院增加了國際事務處增加了預算沒有行政院提案通過了請問行政院有沒有覆議要不要釋憲我們經過跟憲法公法學者的討論就是把預算這些不用釋憲這些不用覆議雖然不是預算案把預算直接進到法律名預算入法是那就有可能牽涉到這個憲法的精神所以就可能違憲"},{"start":816.894,"end":843.576,"text":"我們認為這可能有侵犯憲法之餘所以透過專家學者我們考慮是不是就憲政的秩序來做一個解釋好所以院長我現在就可以告訴你所有的立法委員都會提出相關的所謂扶國立民不是減少人民的負擔就是增加政府的支出每一個計劃每一個提案都牽涉到預算所以你要對所有的法律案都有這樣的態度嗎"},{"start":844.158,"end":858.106,"text":"但是如果把實質的預算金額直接入法,那就是一個可以爭議的地方。我希望你的標準就是,入法就這樣,所以以後我們不能通過任何法,因為只要你們不同意的。預算金額直接入法。噢,好,所以才化法不會違法,不會違憲。"},{"start":859.714,"end":865.518,"text":"財化法是中央地方全縣的合理分。財化法一方面是錢的問題一般是市者的問題。"},{"start":889.864,"end":919.22,"text":"接下去在之前我們的張俊雄行政院長當年他其實就訂過所謂的融資公司法雖然沒有通過但是他當時就訂了金管會市相關的主管機關目前為止臺灣所有的融資公司沒人管叫做經濟部管經濟部管的等於沒有人管然後現在金管會市用政企局然後說上市公司所以我們對那幾家來做管"},{"start":952.785,"end":957.942,"text":"謝謝黃委員。謝謝卓院長。報告院會財政組織質詢已詢答完畢。"}]}},{"id":"154429","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154429","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a154754674d6f43d117aa2c12d918673f79f1ebec16c54221ff550ee0c4d3fa6fe9775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:37:16 - 11:53:31","影片長度":"00:16:15","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T11:37:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T11:53:31+08:00","duration":975,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":714,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（11時37分）謝謝大院主席江副院長，是不是請卓院長？"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：卓院長你好。卓院長，我請教您，因為臺灣消費者物價指數（CPI）的上漲率已經連續三年超過2%，通膨成為近年最受關注的議題，不過對於外界習慣定2%為通膨的一個警戒線，央行現在認為臺灣屬於小型開放的經濟體，採具彈性的物價穩定的定義應較為妥適。請問院長，採取彈性的物價穩定定義的作法，通膨警戒標準是不是成為變動的一個指標，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：先跟委員報告，我們今年預計會比去年好一點，今年是2.07，比去年稍微好一點，就是我們強力在穩定物價。我也知道民眾的一般生活、跟他生活息息相關的核心物價，他的感受會比較深，用平均來算，當然大家會認為好像跟事實有點差距，所以央行在精進整個計算的過程當中，我們請央行來說明。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，基本上大家一般都認為2%是一個警戒線，不過就一個small open小型開放的經濟體來講，事實上在2%左右應該都可以接受。"],["林委員德福：那政府和民間預測機構要依據哪種標準定義通膨？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，大概也是這樣子，大概也都是2%左右。"],["林委員德福：因為本席認為如果標準的彈性過大，會不會又造成預測單位各說各話？會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該也是不會，我們所謂的2%左右這個也不是說短期……今年是這樣，事實上所謂的2%是中長期的平均數，也就是說，可能一年當中可以高於2%，然後有些時候會低於2%，但是中長期的時候，平均在2%左右應該都可以接受的。"],["林委員德福：院長，事實上從消費者物價指數變動，乃至於要定義為通膨率，民眾關心的只有一點，那就是從荷包拿錢買東西不要變貴，但要怎麼樣讓民眾不覺得買東西變貴？本席認為二十多年來，國內民眾所得差距極端化，貧富差距持續加劇，就是近年來持續討論，卻又無藥可醫的一個問題。請問院長，到底貧富差距、所得差距極端化是不是資本主義社會、民主國家下不可逆的一種現象呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：不可否認它是一個因素，但是政府都會用很多其他的方法、手段去平衡這些數字上的差距。其實我們最近公布的111年數據是6.15，相較過去來講，並沒有明顯的增加。但我還是再次強調，公平的分配才是一個國家文明的指標。"],["林委員德福：我瞭解，但是貧富差距越來越嚴重啊！針對所得差距極端化，院長，你認為要採取哪些方式可以緩和衝擊呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這幾年，剛剛也提到政府從中央預算對地方的補助很多，也有很多的政策，包括社福、包括政府投資、對家庭的政府投資，以及在課稅的合理性方面。另外，就是很多的實物給付，實際上給予一些在政策上支持的實物給付等等都讓我們的所得差距會降低。在數據統計上，是從7.5降低到大概5.7。"],["林委員德福：所以你認為目前政府所擁有的政策工具是不是都已經派上用場了？"],["卓院長榮泰：政策工具都有，但最主要還是能夠全面有效率地落實執行下去，我想中央、地方政府都應該很努力在照顧一般人民的生活。"],["林委員德福：院長，媒體報導政府面對通膨的作為，央行認為伴隨全球化走向零碎化等結構性因素的轉變，供給面不穩定性的可能性越來越高，面對供給面通膨的衝擊，貨幣政策效果相對有限，如果能搭配從供給面著手的財政政策等因應措施，有助於讓穩定物價發揮更大的成效。我請問院長，央行所說的財政政策，哪些是現在政府已經實施在物價穩定上的，你認為有哪些？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請央行說明。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，事實上這幾年，我們的物價跟歐美國家相對比較穩定的是在供給面，我們是實施供給面，譬如對油電的absorption、它的一個吸納，這是供給面的部分。另外，關稅、營業稅及貨物稅的調降，這些都是供給面。"],["林委員德福：總裁，那個其實是我們超徵，你看這兩年，包括所有的電費、台電的損失，等於它的虧損五千多億也是政府去補貼，這個都是人民的納稅錢。其實主要就是因為它虧損連連，講實在話，再進一步去探討，主要是它政策開始的時候就有偏掉，才要補貼那麼多，不然台電為什麼會虧損連連、五千多億呢？對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：不全是這樣，它負擔很多的補貼政策。"],["林委員德福：我瞭解啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以再補貼回去，只是它這一部分的稍稍彌補，未來我們已經希望台電相關電費的補貼政策能夠回歸到目的事業主管機關去，就不會把帳都算在台電身上。"],["林委員德福：院長，其實從520你就任行政院長後，當然臺股大盤高點從兩萬一千三百多點上漲到兩萬三千四百多點，短短30個交易日，臺股大漲了兩千多點。就本席觀察，從臺股今年年初開紅盤到現在，幾乎可說是從一萬七千多點持續上漲不回頭。請問院長，年初至今臺股上漲五千多點，到底是我們的整個經濟表現強勁帶動股市？還是去年我們整個經濟景氣低迷，今年是復甦的回溫，所以才有這樣的一個反彈力道而導致？你的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：在這種國際情勢底下，我想任何政府的進步跟財政的穩定、經濟的發展，人民才是最大的功臣，大家一定是通力合作，再加上產業，有產業的政策、有產業各項的方針，尤其是在高端的產業、高科技的產業當中，帶領臺灣很多中下游的產業集體發展，所以我們這個時候更有能力從事更多的數位轉型、淨零轉型。"],["林委員德福：那你認為……"],["卓院長榮泰：同時我們也希望厚植國力，把這些多增加出來的國家實力，能夠用到有用的地方去。"],["林委員德福：那是好的一面，又或者可能臺股已經有炒過高的疑慮，投資人應該要注意投資的風險，你認為有沒有需要去注意？"],["卓院長榮泰：每個投資的廣告都會下這一句話：投資者應該要有心理準備，他應該算準自己的能量，以及對未來情勢的掌握，能夠精準的投資，這樣才是最有保障的。"],["林委員德福：院長，事實上臺股和美股一樣屢創新高，從一般角度來看，主要還是受惠經濟基本面支撐，以及對未來整個景氣的預期。按照央行第二季理監事會討論的預期，楊總裁表示今年內內、外需會回溫，因此調高經濟成長率3.77%。我請問院長，今年經濟成長率向上調，你怎麼來看臺股未來的整個前景？你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟成長率跟臺股應該有相當關聯性的互相作用，如果經濟穩定的話，大家、人民的投資意願高，股市能夠穩定，這也會回到我們經濟的整體發展。"],["林委員德福：目前……"],["卓院長榮泰：至於剛剛央行的準備，是不是請央行說明一下？"],["林委員德福：目前整個臺股大盤是不是已經提前反映經濟成長率的上調？還是經濟成長後勢可期，臺股大盤上攻的空間仍舊大有可為？總裁，你有什麼看法？"],["楊總裁金龍：是的，我想剛才剛好委員也有提到，就是國際的股市都是，像美國也是創新高，歐洲也是創新高，日本也創新高，日本只是在它創新高以後再稍微回檔。臺灣當然也是一樣的，就跟國際盤差不多，不過我們臺灣有另外一個原因，也就是因為我們的科技產業，特別是AI的這個議題，跟我們的出口也有密切的關係，所以股市才會節節上升。"],["林委員德福：所以臺股大盤屢創新高，你認為會不會已經達到瓶頸，投資風險大，投資人要小心？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，那是當然，剛剛委員也有講到，我們臺股從1萬8,000點一直跑到2萬3,000點。"],["林委員德福：對啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：而且好像沒有回頭，事實上這個是一樣的，就是投資人應該要居高思危。"],["林委員德福：院長，央行表示國內經濟上半年受惠，誠如剛剛總裁所提的人工智慧AI的熱潮，相關產品出口暢旺，國內下半年則是輸出穩健的成長，帶動民間整個投資貢獻轉正，而且民間消費的動能延續，是支撐經濟成長的重要來源。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員德福：再加上主計總處今年預測整個經濟成長率是3.94%，我請問院長，目前國內經濟動能持續好轉，經濟基本面有所支撐，你認為到明年上半年，國內經濟景氣有沒有持續向上的機會呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府一定會提出前瞻的政策，穩定的執行，讓人民對國家的未來深具信心，那麼他自己應該謹慎地選擇他投資的各種品項，跟政府的政策相結合，這樣看起來的話，臺灣穩定的經濟發展，不管是很多世界有名的學者也好，或是企業者也好，都認為臺灣未來會有很長一段相當光明的時間。我們一定要提供穩定的政策，這是必要的。"],["林委員德福：照卓院長講的，如果國內景氣持續地回溫，臺股大盤未來是不是還有期待向上的空間？你的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：這需要努力，大家一起努力！"],["林委員德福：大家一起努力！另外，我再請莊部長一併上來，請總裁跟主委先回去。卓院長，財劃法在民國88年修到現在為止，已經經過了25年，因為我在財委會算是資深，也經過很多次的修訂，但是以前每一次只要修，各縣市的財政局局長來、有的首長來，但是為什麼沒辦法達成共識？因為他都是站在自己本身的立場觀點來看整個財劃法未來要如何修、如何分配，但是其實要是這些縣市……因為縣市不是只有藍的，綠的也有，甚至於綠的他們也提出應該要修正財劃法。而且在上上個禮拜還是上個禮拜，我們財委會有一個臨時提案，就是一定要在下一次我們開會前，由財政部提出你們的版本來審，那到底現在的進度如何？在下一次會期開始的時候會不會提出來、併進去審查？部長，你有什麼看法？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您在財委會很久，您也知道25年來行政院曾經提過5次的版本，但是都因為沒有共識，所以沒有能夠完成修法……"],["林委員德福：這次要是有共識呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：這一次我們其實已經去調查過各地方政府對於分配的指標表達意見，但是非常的分歧，所以這個部分我們必須要去凝聚共識，到目前來說分歧性很大。上一次財委會通過那個決議，是建請我們提出版本，這個部分我們近期會再請地方政府還有相關部會來開會討論……"],["林委員德福：要是財委會大家取得共識，你們要不要提版本？我就是請教部長跟院長嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：所謂的共識就是第一個，地方政府對於分配……"],["林委員德福：就是大家認為應該怎麼樣分配比較合理。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，現在問題還是很分歧。"],["林委員德福：很分歧那是你講的！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，事實如此。"],["林委員德福：但是我們有徵詢過，事實上很多縣市他們已經有達到某種共識，認為說應該要來修，而且那個比例應該要怎麼調，因為25年來都沒有調、沒有變嘛！對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員您提……"],["林委員德福：我認為中央不要集權又集錢，因為只要修到一個合理的，大家能夠接受，中央應該要接受。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，其實中央每年釋出總共有八千多億到地方，統籌分配稅款四千多億、一般性補助款兩千多億，以及重大投資計畫也達到兩千多億。"],["林委員德福：問題是你們分配的有時候讓人家不能接受，就是你沒有照人口比例還有貢獻度有多大，其實部長你也很清楚，過去為什麼他們有意見？就是分配不平均，而且讓很多縣市認為說嗷嗷待哺，而且它真的需要很多的建設，又沒有辦法拿到很多中央的補助，它貢獻度很多，但是拿得很少，我認為這應該要提出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","吳秉叡委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員吳秉叡書面質詢：","面對中國經濟衰退，政府應加強相關對應措施，俾免社會、經濟、金融及產業遭受連帶衝擊。","國際局勢概述","2018年7月起，美國對中國進口產品實施第一波加徵關稅措施後，美中自此開啟互課關稅報復的關稅戰爭，自此，中國高科技發展受限，同時也開啟了緊張的地緣關係。","緊接著，COVID-19疫情於2020年初開始蔓延，並迅速擴散至世界多國，逐漸變成一場漫長的全球性大瘟疫。COVID-19疫情對人類造成嚴重的衝擊，影響的層面涵蓋衛生健康、社會、經濟、金融及產業發展，乃至於國際關係等領域。","2022年2月，俄羅斯開始入侵烏克蘭，引爆自二戰以來歐洲最大規模的戰爭。這場戰爭延續至今仍未歇息，除了帶動西方國家與俄國緊張局勢外，更深深影響到包括美中爭霸所延伸的西太平洋地緣緊張局勢，以及中東地區以色列與周邊國家的激烈衝突。","總體而言，近6年來的國際局勢，不論是地緣衝突，或是COVID-19疫情蔓延，都對世界各國產生空前的衝擊，全球大小經濟體幾乎難以置身事外。","COVID-19疫情帶來未曾想像過的災難，各國為挽救遭受嚴重衝擊的經濟，紛紛採取量化寬鬆（QE）的貨幣政策，致使大部分國家因過多的貨幣供給，造成2020至2021的兩年間，股市、債市、房市、以及風險性資產的全面飆漲。2020年3月開始推出QE政策後，截至當年年底的9個多月期間，全球股價平均上漲68%，2021年續漲20%。投機與暴利造成一波新的財富重分配，且更擴大全球貧富差距。","2022年初爆發的俄烏戰爭，引發了原物料、石油及糧食價格大漲，更加重前述資金寬鬆效應之外的通膨壓力，這對全球造成重大衝擊，我國自難倖免。","2022年全球平均通膨率7.6%，歐美更普遍創下10%左右的通膨新高。為對抗通膨，歐美國家爰於2022至2023年間，採行量化緊縮（QT）及40年來最猛烈的升息政策，各國開始緊縮貨幣。","因升息而造成各國股市、債市、房市及其他各種資產價格全面下跌，全球股價在2022年間平均下跌20%。","本（2024）年元月在瑞士達沃斯（Davos）舉行的世界經濟論壇上，專家表示：「2024年全球經濟將面臨非正常的局面，同時也認為2024年中國經濟放緩將加大全球經濟風險。」這一點，吾人應當特別注意。","中國進入經濟衰退期","中國在2018年美中貿易戰之後，除高科技產業發展受到嚴重限制外，又接連受到疫情衝擊，國家錯誤的封控政策導致經濟發展一蹶不振。","此後5年，中國經濟屢遭打擊，包括3年疫情肆虐、生育率暴跌、青年失業率衝高，以及房地產市場接連爆雷。經濟學家紛紛發表「中國將經歷停滯的十年」的預測。","如一般預期，中國開始進入經濟成長的停滯期，民間投資低迷，出現逐年下降趨勢，2023年以降，整體投資額明顯減少，市場對資金的需求因而大幅衰退，出現經濟蕭條的前兆。","人口成長率下降是中國經濟衰退的另一現象。由於長期獨生子女的政策，中國生育率下降的速度遠快於日本。1980年至2020年期間，日本的總和生育率從1.75下降到1.29；相同時期，中國的總和生育率從2.74下降到1.28。2022年中國人口減少85萬人，這是自1960年代初大饑荒以來，人口首次下降；也是從這一年開始，中國在大饑荒後的嬰兒潮（1962~1974）開始退休，中國65歲以上人口達到14%，正式進入高齡社會。2023年萎縮幅度更進一步擴大到208萬人，中國的人口紅利快速消失，少子化加上高齡化讓中國的經濟停滯雪上加霜。","中國自1980年開放住房商品化起，房地產業迅速膨脹為經濟巨獸。2019年房地產占國內生產毛額的7.1%；若納入其周邊關連產業，則總貢獻飆破國內生產毛額的62.3%。房地產亦占固定資產投資的24.0%、占銀行放款的29.0%、占財政收入的38.1%，以及占家庭財富的59.1%；中國的房地產市場興衰牽動整體經濟。","惟在2016年「房住不炒」的政策轉變下，房市怪獸終於轟然倒塌。2019年2月爆發首起建商違約事件後，一發不可收拾，2023年底計240家大型建商貸款違約，金額達人民幣2,707億元，占全部違約金額的38.0%，尚有1,281家建商票據違約，占全部逾期家數的54.4%。","巨型建商恆大集團於2021年宣告違約，留下人民幣2兆4千億元的巨債，以及遍布全國上百萬套的「爛尾樓」；2年後，碧桂園亦步入後塵。2023年底，於中港上市的181家建商中，已有71家爆發違約；這些企業的負債達15.4兆人民幣，占整體GDP的12.2%。","雖然北京當局於2023年7月緊急放寬房地產融資，包括解除限貸令，只要購屋即適用首次房貸優惠利率，並下調首貸利率0.1%，且折半首付比率至兩成。其次取消每戶只能持有一間住宅的限購令。部分城市亦悄然撤除限價令，即房價只能在指導價的一定區間內幅度，藉此刺激房市。","但為時已晚，中國的房地產市場已經回天乏術，正一步步帶動全國經濟下滑。","金融業首當其衝。2020年17家國有與股份制銀行的建商不良貸款（NPL）暴增五成，並觸發27起銀行擠兌事件。最大民營金融集團中植系也因投資地產失利，於2024年1月申請破產，資產規模達人民幣3.6兆元。期間，保險巨擘中國人壽與第三大財富管理海銀控股，也遭建商交叉違約的牽連。","房市風暴接著衝擊地方財政；2023年契稅、房產稅、城鎮土地使用稅、土地增值稅，以及耕地占用稅等相關稅收年減2.4%，連續4個月負成長。國有土地使用權出讓收入，更連續24個月負成長。收入短絀導致179家各城市投資建設公司商業票據逾期兌付，涉案金額累計156億人民幣。","中美貿易戰、COVID-19疫情及房地產風暴更嚴峻的後果是包括台商在內的外資大舉撤離。擔憂金融泡沫爆破，2019年~2023年間，外資撤離中國的金額估計高達3.3兆美元，受此影響，2023年2月底人民幣兌美元即期匯率收在7.104，較2019年以降的高峰重貶12.7%，貶值的趨勢未歇，到2024年6月底，已經來到7.27。股票市場更是一蹶不振，滬深300指數從2021年2月10日歷史最高點5,807.72點，跌至2022年底的3,871.63，跌幅達33.33%，後來又跌至2024年2月2日的最低點3,179.63，三年間，滬深300指數跌幅高達45.25%。從2022年底至2024年2月的最低點，中國股市暴跌已導致投資者損失2兆美元（約新台幣63兆元）。中國經濟正面臨股匯雙殺、內外夾擊的完美風暴。","日本野村證券公司示警，2024年中國將持續出現大規模的建商倒閉潮，標準普爾（S&P）也預期今年中國經濟成長率僅2.9%，國際貨幣基金（IMF）則預測中國的經濟恐長期走緩，日本經濟研究中心（JCER）更直言中國經濟將長期陷於零成長。總之，中國經濟已確定衰退，再崛起的機率相當渺茫。","在青年失業率方面，2023年6月份，16至24歲年齡組的失業率連續6個月攀升，在6月份達到了創紀錄的21.3%。之後，中國國家統計局停止了公布該項統計，後來，在改變計算方式後，去年12月份的青年失業率是14.9%。","中國國家統計局公布2024年1月份消費價格指數（CPI）較去年同期下降0.8%，降幅比上月擴大0.5%，連續第4個月處於通縮區間。同一時間，生產者價格指數也下降2.5%，表明經濟持續疲軟。去年7月份開始，中國陷入通貨緊縮，除8月份短暫反彈外，此後一直持續下滑。中國正經歷自25年前的亞洲金融風暴以來持續時間最長的通貨緊縮。","雖然通貨緊縮讓民眾消費商品更加便宜，但它對整體經濟構成威脅，因為消費者傾向於推遲購買，期待進一步降價。而需求不振將迫使企業減產、停止招聘或進一步裁員，同時還可能不得不對現有庫存打折，嚴重影響企業獲利，導致整個經濟走向衰退。","在此要提醒的是：中國所發布的統計數據通常是不可信的，這已是國際上眾所皆知的事實。不管大至經濟成長、進出口貿易、金融市場或就業及物價統計……，小至地方政府稅收、企業生產、人口統計或災害損傷，都是按照政治性的目的加以修飾或竄改。這一點，政府決策或研究單位不可不慎。","疫情後，中國經濟復甦已經失敗","前已述及本（2024）年元月在瑞士達沃斯舉行的世界經濟論壇上，專家表示：「2024年全球經濟將面臨非正常的局面，同時也認為2024年中國經濟放緩將加大全球經濟風險。」彭博分析更認為：中國三年疫情大流行後的復甦已經失敗，而持續推出的刺激措施也未能填補房地產行業下滑留下的巨大缺口，經濟下行風險明顯加大。如果中國房地產危機引發金融危機，就像1989年的日本和2008年的美國那樣，中國經濟確實將出現萎縮。","我國中央銀行也在本年6月20日的分析報告中表示：中國經濟復甦不穩將擴大金融風險。央行報告指出：「中國經濟疲軟的具體跡象包括：2018年至2023年平均經濟成長率為5.3%，低於2008年至2017年平均8.3%，更難以與2001年至2007年的10.9%高成長相比。」又說：「中國近年房市景氣不振，影響民眾消費信心下滑，消費需求轉疲外，多數地方融資平台因缺乏資金支付利息，加上景氣復甦遲緩，地方財政收入疲軟；中國人行為穩定房市，持續寬鬆貨幣政策挹注市場資金，進一步加劇地方政府債務累積，金融風險隱憂擴大。」","港澳與中國密不可分","香港澳門與中國經濟相互依賴，中國經濟走向衰退，港澳無法倖免；國際貨幣基金（IMF）早前估計，中國2024年的GDP成長率將只有4.6%，而香港則跟隨下修至2.9%。","香港曾是活躍的國際金融中心，與紐約、倫敦併稱為「紐倫港」。但自2019年港版國安法施行後，移民加劇、外資撤退，加上3年疫情的摧殘，各項財經指標都大幅衰退，乃至被謔稱已成國際金融廢墟。","面對中國經濟衰退，政府應加強相關對應措施，俾免社會、經濟、金融及產業遭受連帶衝擊。","一般預測2024年中國經濟成長率會在去年5.2%的基礎上減緩至4.8%，明年將進一步降至4.5%。中國是世界第二大經濟體，佔全球的經濟比重約為18%，我國做為中國的鄰國，產經貿易與金融交易有密不可分的關連。","為免社會、經濟、金融及產業遭受中國經濟衰退的連帶影響，政府應加強注意相關監理，擬定合宜策略與措施以為因應。","(一)加強國防，密切注意中國為降低經濟衰退在國內的民怨壓力，而可能採取對我國不利的軍事攻擊。","(二)協助台商自中國撤資後的必要支援，包括協助資金轉移、建構國內優質的投資環境，以及協助轉往包括新南向政策在內的國家及地區。","(三)密切控管我國金融機構在中國及港澳地區包括授信與投資的曝險。雖然我國在中國及港澳地區的金融曝險比率仍在主管機關的政策限額內，惟仍需未雨綢繆，擬定合宜的退場機制，持續關注局勢變化，在第一時間採取保護我國金融機構資產安全的行動。","(四)協助我國企業受中國中止「海峽兩岸經濟合作框架協議（ECFA）」早收清單關稅減讓的衝擊。中國政府於本年6月15日起終止134項「海峽兩岸經濟合作框架協議（ECFA）」早收清單關稅減讓。政府宜擬定合適的對應措施，給予遭受衝擊的企業必要的補貼或輔導。","(五)調整貿易夥伴，分散可能的風險。雖然我國與中國的貿易依賴度逐年降低，2020年台灣出口到中國及香港占43.9%，2021年降到42.3%，2022年38.8%，去年持續下降到35.5%，到今年首季再降到史上最低的30.8%。政府仍宜持續積極拓展其他貿易夥伴，尤其應加速擴展各個雙邊自由貿易協定（FTA），乃至於以完成「跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定（CPTPP）」為終極目標。"],["主席：下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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"委員其實中央每年釋出總共有8000多億到地方統籌分配稅款"},{"start":964.23,"end":966.251,"text":"好,我們謝謝林委員"},{"start":970.85,"end":975.166,"text":"吳秉瑞委員之質詢已書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,"}]}},{"id":"154428","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154428","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a1547535fc91fd52ddb502c12d918673f79f1ebec16c54221ff55d43161210f0379b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"11:21:09 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11:36:54","影片長度":"00:15:45","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T11:21:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T11:36:54+08:00","duration":945,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":665,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（11時21分）主席，我們請卓院長，請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：卓院長，還有彭主委，請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：沈委員好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：院長早、彭主委早。今天利用很短的總質詢時間，我想針對有關於要打造亞洲資產管理中心的政策目標來進行探討，因為打造亞洲資產管理中心不只是賴清德總統在去年選舉期間12月的時候提出來的一個重要政見，在5月31號的施政報告，卓院長在施政報告裡面也特別提到打造亞洲資產管理中心，將推動作為金管會未來的施政重心。我看到彭主委在上個月6月17號宣布，預計要在8月20號，也就是就任滿三個月的時間，提出有關亞洲資產管理中心相關的規劃，這個部分我想就在今天這個時候，因為打造亞洲資產管理中心確實是一個非常重要，而且也是一個美麗的願景，但是事實上民間或者是業界，大家最擔心的就是過去政府常常有許多口號，實際上提出來的計畫，它的改革幅度卻不如預期，這個部分是不是先請教卓院長，有關於打造亞洲資產管理中心目前所希望做的這些相關規劃跟重點，簡單的講一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛委員所說我們在總質詢之前，施政報告提出的其中包括亞洲資產管理中心，而且不瞞委員，剛剛休息的時候，我們兩位還在後面的休息室談下一個階段要怎麼做，那就提到在兩個月之後，就是8月20日左右的那個時間，金管會要如何來促使這個事情，那他已經有一個報告，這個報告就再等一下、稍晚他會來跟我再做詳細的說明，那報告我看在他手上已經是完備了。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分我也很期待，因為距離8月20日剩下差不多50天的時間而已，其實時間不久，應該現在相關的計畫……最重要的是，提出這個規劃之後，我個人希望不要提出這個規劃之後，大家事實上包括業界、包括民間所期待的相關許多改革，它的幅度卻讓人失望，這個是最要避免了，所以我利用在規劃提出還有50天時間的今天特別跟彭主委來做一些溝通，院長可以請回了，我來跟彭主委討論這些有關打造亞洲資產管理中心的相關細節。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：彭主委，打造亞洲資產管理中心是我們的目標，但是事實上整個亞洲其他相關的國家與城市，大家也希望……都在競爭啦！大家都是彼此競爭，所以我希望我們所提出來的這個計畫，我就以目前我看到也希望打造自己成為亞洲資產管理中心的日本，以日本的相關政策來作為借鏡。事實上，從岸田首相上任之後，日本在2021年就提出了一個金融市場准入辦公室的作法，這是一個流程，2022年時岸田首相又提出新資本主義的主張，到去年他就完整地提出了一個資產運用立國實現計畫，這裡面有各種不一樣的部分，而且我個人認為有許多值得我們借鏡的地方，尤其是我們要跟他們競爭，將來我們8月20日所推出來的方案，我個人認為要足以跟日本所提出來的相關改革計畫，至少要具有競爭力，我們才有辦法打造。","我個人在3月8號的總質詢，那時候你們新內閣還沒有上任，我個人就針對日本的金融市場准入辦公室提出質詢，金融市場准入辦公室有幾項重要的部分，其中包括提供居住的便利、提供簽證上的加分，甚至申請的外資還有費用補助70%，外資提出申請有費用補貼；更重要的是他們提出了一個叫一站式服務、全英文一條龍的申請流程，這不只是提出申請的部分，包括從諮詢的階段開始，一直到註冊的階段，到未來的監理，甚至跟未來相關公會之間的聯繫公文，全部都用英文，以這樣的環境來吸引外資，這部分有沒有放入我們未來的計畫當中？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分我們有同仁專案在研究有關日本金融特區的內容，這個當然是未來我們要吸引國外的投資或吸引國外的資產管理公司來臺灣的一個必備的部分，我們也會全面檢討這樣的英語申請過程。"],["沈委員發惠：這個不只是申請，日本所推出的金融市場准入辦公室是一條龍式的，從諮詢開始，一直到註冊，到未來金管會對他的監理，甚至包括他以後跟相關公會之間的文件來往都是全英語……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，全英語的。"],["沈委員發惠：其實這樣的環境打造並不容易，因為相關的公會、相關公務人員、相關公家機關的語言能力也要有一定的人力基礎，這個部分我希望能夠納入。","因為這個部分我在3月的總質詢已經大致上討論過了，所以今天比較重要的就是跟主委來談有關日本岸田首相在去年所提出來的資產運用立國實現計畫，其中大概分成幾個部分，第一個，他提出一個資產所得倍增計畫，這個主委應該清楚。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["沈委員發惠：另外他們提出兩個改革的重點，一個是公司治理的改革，另外一個就是資產管理業跟資產所有者的改革，我們要成為亞洲資產管理中心，有關資產管理業的改革我想一定是非常重要的重點，我們在8月20號將要提出來的這些相關規劃裡面，我相信有關資產管理業的相關規定，不管是法規、不管是稅制、不管是吸引外商、外資的相關規定，應該要有大幅度的改革，否則的話以我們現在……我們先來看看我們的現況，日本所提出來有關資產管理業的改革，就是我剛才提到的資產管理業跟資產所有者的改革，他們在去年11月20號做了一個重大的修法，就是金融商品取引法，我們臺灣沒有相對應的法，我們臺灣就是分為證交法、期交法、投信投顧法，日本是整合成一個金融商品取引法，他們針對金融商品取引法做了大幅度的修正，為什麼他們要做大幅度的修正？日本政府看到他們在資產管理業的規模跟他們的GDP，在整個世界的競爭上面，相對來講他們是弱勢的，因此他們必須要修改相關的法令來做這方面的改變。日本覺得關於本身的資產管理規模跟GDP倍數，甚至是他們的資產管理業公司家數，他們都認為遠遠不足！","我做了一個比較，前面外國的部分我就直接引日本「資產運用立國實現計畫」裡面的數據；但是最後有關臺灣的部分是我這邊自己統計的，如果有錯誤，也請主委……"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，以臺灣投信投顧所管理的資產規模，現在本國大概是8兆，然後國外4兆，總共12兆。"],["沈委員發惠：對，8兆，我這邊講0.3兆是美金，因為前面這些都是以美金計算，所以我這個統計應該沒有錯啦。所以你看，日本7.2兆、美國50兆、英國13.5兆、法國5.7兆、新加坡4兆、香港4.6兆，臺灣才0.3兆美金。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我們就看它跟GDP之間的關聯，日本7.2兆是GDP的1.4倍、美國的資產管理規模是他們GDP的2.1倍、英國到4.3倍、新加坡是9.4倍、香港是12.5倍，那臺灣呢？臺灣是GDP的一半！這個就顯示我們的資金跟金融人才，以現況來講，事實上是有外流之虞啦，就從這些數字上面來判斷。","有關現在這樣子的現況，主委，我們要用什麼樣的方式來做一些改變？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我們也有仔細研究一下鄰近的這些所謂金融中心或資產管理中心，我們可以概分為兩個模式，一個是新加坡模式跟杜拜模式，它大概就是引資為主，它本身並沒有很多的產業。","像我們看日本，日本的發展模式我覺得很值得我們借鏡，比如說剛剛它的部分，不管高度、廣度、深度跟一般性都值得我們參考，比如說它是由首相來做一個宣示，我們是總統的政見；再來比如它的廣度，它結合NISA、國民教育，還有金融倍增，這是全套的，不是只有資產管理。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有錯！"],["彭主任委員金隆：再來就是它的深度，它把全國作為發展的縱深，比如說東京都當作傳統的金融中心來發展；大阪就結合產學研做創新的基地……"],["沈委員發惠：對，他們提出了4個……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，福岡是做對外的窗口……"],["沈委員發惠：福岡、北海道……"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟九州，最重要是它還有北海道的札幌做綠色金融，所以它是個全套的，我覺得這是非常值得參考的；再來委員剛剛也有提到它提供一般性，也對一些外商非常友好，或是對資本……比如剛剛講到英語的環境、提供永久居留權、稅，還有一些費用的減免程序，這些都是我們可以參考的。","剛剛委員也有提到我們臺灣的特色，臺灣有產業，所以我們初步規劃就是，我們除了像傳統新加坡引才為主，我們留才更重要，怎麼樣做到投資臺灣、支持產業發展這樣的資產管理中心，我覺得這是一個未來發展，謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：我想剛剛主委講的相當正確也非常全面，我現在集中在有關資產管理業的相關規定，就是我剛剛所講日本的商品取引法修正，其實他們修正的內容有很多，有關資產管理業的部分，過去日本就商品規劃跟投資執行，甚至這些中後臺的作業，日本過去是這些資產管理業完全都要自己做，那他們現在……那我們臺灣呢？我們臺灣應該是中後臺作業可以委外，但是我們在商品規劃跟投資執行方面，投資執行的部分不能委外啦，應該目前的投信投顧是這樣子。而日本他們現在要整個鬆綁，他們希望鬆綁到讓投資執行跟中後臺作業整個都可以委外執行。那未來這個部分我們有沒有相關的方向規劃？"],["彭主任委員金隆：針對未來我們推動臺灣成為資產管理中心，現在金管會初步盤點大概將近有12項措施，其中有一個是我們專門針對本土的資產管理公司的擴增計畫，這裡面就會對相關的一些法規鬆綁改革，我們會做全套的規劃。"],["沈委員發惠：關於這個部分，主委自己有講，其實整個要讓臺灣變成具有競爭力的亞洲資產管理中心大概有幾個面向，像法規的鬆綁，一定是其中重要的一環，其他的包括充沛的專業人力，這個是我們主委所講的，另外資金要能夠自由移動，這牽涉到我們的匯率管制，另外就是要有具吸引力的稅制，這個部分是我最擔心的，我今天本來想請財政部長上來，跟你再談一談我們未來這些相關的稅制，但不用了，現在剩下不到1分鐘了。","但稅制改革這部分恐怕也是我們這次能不能成功打造亞洲資產管理中心其中的一個核心議題，這個部分要具有吸引力的稅制，再來是創造容易溝通的環境，我剛剛有提到類似全英語這樣子的方式，最後就是一個彈性的組織架構，這是主委所講的。","距離主委自己設定的8月20號提出打造亞洲資產管理中心這個目標的相關計畫、規劃還有差不多50天的時間，我希望50天後你們所提出來計畫，能夠就我剛才跟主委所討論的這些部分，你們能夠做出具有競爭力的計畫，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們一定努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。報告院會，現在在議場二樓的貴賓是美國國會助理訪問團的朋友們，我們在此歡迎他們的參訪。","報告院會，鍾佳濱委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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"end":591.161,"text":"這個立國實現計畫裡面的數據但是最後有關臺灣的部分是我這邊自己統計的那這個如果有錯誤也請這個主委這個報告委員那我們以臺灣的那個投硬投固在管理的資產規模現在大概是本國大概是8兆然後國外是4兆總共12兆對對對8兆我這邊講0.3兆是美金因為他前面這些計算都是美金美金計算所以我這個統計應該是沒有錯"},{"start":593.84,"end":615.898,"text":"所以你看這個日本日本他們7.2兆美國50兆英國13.5兆法國5.7兆新加坡4兆香港4.6兆台灣才0.3兆美金那我們就看他這個他跟GDP之間的關聯日本他是7.2兆他是GDP的1.4倍美國是"},{"start":619.225,"end":643.692,"text":"的這個資產管理規模是他們GDP的2.1倍英國到4.3倍然後新加坡是9.4倍香港是12.5倍那臺灣呢臺灣是GDP的一半一半這個這顯示我們的這個資金跟金融的人才事實上以現況來講事實上是有外流之餘就從這些數字上面來判斷那這個這個"},{"start":649.568,"end":675.614,"text":"我想這個有關有關現在這樣子的現況齁主委我們在用什麼樣的方式來做一些改變?這個報委啊主要是我們也有仔細的研究一下我們所謂的世界上我們臨近的這些所謂的金融中心或資產管理中心比如說我們可以概分為兩個模式一個是新加坡模式跟杜拜模式他大概就是引資為主他本身並沒有很多的產業像我們看日本"},{"start":676.514,"end":704.32,"text":"日本的發展模式我覺得是很值得我們借鏡比如說他剛剛的不管高度、廣度、深度跟一般性都值得我們參考比如說他是由首相來做一個宣示我們是總統的政見再來就是比如說他的廣度他結合他的NISA國民教育還有金融倍增這是全套的不是只有資產管理再來就是他的深度他把全國作為發展的眾生比如說東京都當作傳統的金融中心來發展他的大阪就結合他的產學研做創新的基地"},{"start":704.48,"end":730.205,"text":"他們提出了四個福岡、北海道跟九州最重要是他還有北海道的雜黃做那個綠色金融所以他是個全套的我覺得這是非常有值得參考再來他剛剛委員也提到他提供一般性也對一些外商非常友好或是對資本比如剛才英語的環境提供永久居留權稅還有一些費用的減免程序而且這些都是我們可以來參考的"},{"start":731.085,"end":759.605,"text":"剛剛委員也提到就是說我們臺灣的特色臺灣是有產業有產業所以我們初步規劃就是我們除了像傳統新加坡引財為主我們留財更重要怎麼樣做到投資臺灣知識產業發展這樣的一個資產管理中心我覺得這是一個未來發展我想齁這個剛剛主委講這個是相當正確的但是也非常全面那我現在集中在有關這個資產管理業的這些相關的"},{"start":760.489,"end":767.489,"text":"的規定就是我剛所講日本這些這個這個商品取行法的這個修正了他事實上修正他們這個"},{"start":770.429,"end":798.584,"text":"其實修正的內容有很多啦我就這個有關資產管理業的部分他們過去日本他們在這個他們這個就商品規劃跟這個投資執行還有他們甚至這些中後台的作業他們日本過去是完全你說這些這些資產管理業都要自己做他們現在那我們台灣我們台灣是應該是這個中後台作業可以委外但是我們在這個商品規劃跟投資執行"},{"start":799.943,"end":815.875,"text":"投資執行的部分不能委外啦應該目前的投信投估是這樣子那日本他們現在要整個鬆綁他們希望鬆綁到這個讓投資執行跟中後台作業整個都可以委外來執行那我們這個未來這個部分我們有沒有相關的這樣的方向規劃"},{"start":816.707,"end":816.827,"text":"這個部分齁 這個這個"},{"start":837.062,"end":864.405,"text":"我想這個主委自己有講其實這整個我們這個有關要讓台灣變成有具有競爭力的這個亞洲資產管理中心有大概幾個面向像這個法規法規的鬆綁這個一定是其中重要的一環那其他的包括你這個充沛的專業人力這個是我們主委所講的充沛的專業人力另外資金要能夠自由移動這牽涉到我們的這個"},{"start":866.587,"end":866.707,"text":"﹚財政部長﹚"},{"start":883.48,"end":905.065,"text":"但是這個稅制的改革這個部分恐怕也是我們這次整個這個能不能成功的打造這個亞洲資產管理中心的一個核心議題這個部分這個要具有吸引力的稅制再來就是創造容易溝通的環境我剛剛有提到這樣類似全英語這樣的方式最後就是一個彈性的組織架構這是主委所講的我希望說這個我們來"},{"start":909.116,"end":910.096,"text":"我們一定努力,謝謝委員。謝謝沈委員。"},{"start":938.254,"end":940.518,"text":"報告院會現在在議場二樓的貴賓是美國國會助理訪問團的"}]}},{"id":"154427","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a1547b0cbda12ab49de4d2c12d918673f79f1ebec16c54221ff5597b2e0b8530c93875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:05:05 - 11:21:04","影片長度":"00:15:59","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T11:05:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T11:21:04+08:00","duration":959,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":533,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時5分）謝謝主席，我想要請卓院長跟財政部莊部長。"],["主席：卓院長及財政部長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：院長、部長早安。請問莊部長，今年我們的稅會不會超收？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，今年大概到5月底為止，我們的稅收狀況其實還不錯，應該達成今年度的預算目標是沒有問題，但是可以超過多少目前還不確定，因為要等9月的營所稅暫繳稅款確定以後才明朗，但預算數我們初步估計是可以達成。"],["謝委員衣鳯：根據你們的統計資料，1到5月的實徵數是1兆3,263億，按照財政部的分配預算數是1兆1,784億，所以1到5月為止，你們超收的是1,479億對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您說的1兆3,263億這個實收數是全國數……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個全國數是包含地方稅以及有的進入到特種基金的，中央的實收數是8,980……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你不用分這個，這是全國嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是全國數，對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有我們所有的分配預算數也是全國的啊，這個我都沒有說還分全國或地方嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是1到5月為止，你們已經超收1,479億，是不是這個數字？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說，達成數以全年預算數來說是41%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是不是已經……"],["莊部長翠雲：您提的是分配數嘛。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，比分配數多了1,479億是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：對……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們沒有必要在這裡左右，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：不都是中央的……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，是這樣，但不全都是中央的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那我問你，主要達成預算分配數的是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：主要的大部分……"],["謝委員衣鳯：遺產稅？贈與稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：證交稅。"],["謝委員衣鳯：證交稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為今年的股市我們實際在估的時候，一天的日均量是3,563億，但是到5月底為止，大概平均日均量是4,800億，日均量高的話，證交稅收取的就比較高。另外綜所稅也是，因為利息所得還有一些股利所得分配得多，所以綜所稅也收的比原來多。"],["謝委員衣鳯：營業稅呢？營業稅裡面的……"],["莊部長翠雲：營業稅也是跟國內的需求穩定……"],["謝委員衣鳯：營所稅裡面的金融業營業稅，我看你們已經達成了173%是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：那是分配預算數，但是以全年數來說已達成53%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：已經達成53%嘛，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那我想請問你，金管會已經報給你們了，它是不是希望我們的當沖交易稅可以繼續減免？你們的態度是如何？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關當沖降稅這個部分，依照目前的規定是到今年年底落日，至於要不要繼續實施以及怎麼做調整，這個部分我們跟金管會還持續就相關資料在彙整討論當中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：主委，你是不是有送財政部？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們今年年初已經把我們的意見送給財政部了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們希望降稅，為什麼財政部不給降？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，不是不給降，而是資料送來，我們希望再進一步蒐集更多的資料。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對於金融業的營業稅是否有調降或者是維持原狀？金管會你們目前的態度是如何？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，對於金融營業稅的態度，我們也已經跟財政部報告過了，主要是因為金融業的特性，我們認為就原來提撥的部分我們繼續保留，但是未來希望稅率能夠調降，至於稅率調降多少是財政部的權責。"],["謝委員衣鳯：稅率調降，財政部同不同意？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您會關心到金融營業稅，最主要是金融營業稅原來是有一部分要進入到金融業特別準備金，進入特別準備金的部分也落日了，在今年年底落日，所以主委剛剛也說，對於金融特別準備金已經提撥在裡面的，希望還是保留在這個準備金裡面來適應未來金融業需求，至於未來的稅率是怎麼樣，這個部分我們也會跟金管會討論，對於金融業怎麼樣是有幫助，能夠提升國際的競爭力等等，我們會再做一個進一步的討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是我看金融營業稅也提前達標，代表我們金融業的營收是非常好的是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為利息高嘛！又有升息嘛！所以金融營業稅也有增加。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以這個部分還是要考量是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然我們這個部分會一起考量，不是只有這個稅的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：按照你們整體的稅收模型，今年度預估達成，除了達成預算數以外，超收的機率是如何？"],["莊部長翠雲：達成預算數，那就是超過預算數的部分，我們認為只是金額是多大的部分，剛剛跟委員報告要等到下半年才會確認，因為現在還在上半年。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，可是你們畢竟要有預估嘛！是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：預估的話，我們初估大概是……現在還很難講，我覺得應該還是要到下半年才能夠更明朗，我覺得這個時候說也不是很準啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：今年度1到5月已經超過1,479億了，卓院長，如果今年超收的時候，你要怎麼用？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，報告委員，稅金的實徵數跟預算數會發生這種落差，是因為我們編定的時候是一年前，經過很多的國際因素、國內因素……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我不是問你這個問題啊！我問你要怎麼用？"],["卓院長榮泰：我要講的就是它超徵多少，那當然是預估，但重要的是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我是問你要怎麼用？"],["卓院長榮泰：實徵數多的，它的用途在哪裡……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我問你怎麼用，要不要給其他非六都的縣市65歲以上的民眾，跟六都一樣健保免費？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得它應該先補差短，然後再補債務，還有一些特別統籌……"],["謝委員衣鳯：還是我們要修財劃法？"],["卓院長榮泰：另外還有像是因應……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們要不要修財劃法？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要順序下來……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們要不要修財劃法？"],["卓院長榮泰：那才是它的正確用途，而不是一塊錢……"],["謝委員衣鳯：賴總統在擔任市長的時候，以及他在擔任行政院長的時候，他說要修財劃法，你認為現在要不要修財劃法？"],["卓院長榮泰：財劃法包括大院裡面已經在討論嘛！那我們認為現在財劃法，在實行這麼多年下來，中央對地方的補助較8年前增加了兩、三千億，3,400億。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有沒有修的必要？還是賴總統也要放在總統府，他要再成立一個財劃收支的委員會？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個不需要。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會？他自己來做，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個不需要。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以為什麼當初他希望做，而今天執政了，是因為你卓院長當行政院長，他就不想要做了，是不是？是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初停下來的因素就是很多，我們已經報告過了，各地的要求跟實際上能夠達到的落差都很大，所以沒有辦法達成各縣市的一致，這個是一個最大的問題，我想那個問題到今天依然存在。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有，我有看到，所以你的說法跟財政部的莊部長一樣嘛！先解決水平再解決垂直，那這不是拖遲？那為什麼不先解決垂直再解決水平呢？是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：水平的分配……"],["謝委員衣鳯：先解決垂直分配，不要讓中央集權又集錢嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：中央沒有集權集錢。"],["謝委員衣鳯：過去25年前，在凍省之後，我們就討論要修財劃收支法，但是到了現在，我們還不願意把多的錢分配給地方，如果政府不願意自己來做，讓65歲以上的老人，讓所有的民眾能夠在六都跟在其他縣市一視同仁嘛！那你們不做，讓國民黨的地方政府來做嘛！好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我再說一次，現在跟8年前相比，給地方的補助多了3,400億，而且還有長照、還有前瞻……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們整體的預算也增加了，我們整體的預算也增加了……"],["卓院長榮泰：我的意思就是說不修任何的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以比例沒有增加。"],["卓院長榮泰：不修法的情況底下，中央對地方的補助增加了很多。"],["謝委員衣鳯：比例減少了，比例沒有增加。好，我再問你一個問題，你昨天說要找戶政單位比對資料，將適婚年齡的未婚青年跟結婚好幾年沒有生子的都一起，那請問這有沒有侵犯到個人隱私？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我再次說明，昨天到戶政日的頒獎，其中有一個獎項就是人口政策措施獎勵的績優獎，所以我鼓勵現場的人員，希望他們在這個基礎上運用更多的AI技術，更精準投放一些政策宣導跟獎勵措施給適婚年齡的人，是這個用意，絕對沒有超越現在的做法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那怎麼樣子用AI來比對……"],["卓院長榮泰：就是需要大家去研究。"],["謝委員衣鳯：跟尊重民眾的隱私權，這中間怎麼協調？"],["卓院長榮泰：我一直主張AI要民主AI，以不侵犯人權的AI、有民主素養的AI，所以絕對不會侵犯人權，昨天的講法也絕對沒有超越……"],["謝委員衣鳯：不要、不要，AI是中性的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：AI有沒有民主素養都歸咎於用它的那個人有沒有民主素養。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們已經在獎勵這些優良的戶政人員，所以昨天我是頒人口政策措施宣導績優獎，有這個獎項，希望他們在基礎上做得更好、更精準，絕對沒有超越現在任何的做法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝，兩位請回。我想要請楊總裁跟彭主委。"],["主席：總裁跟主委。"],["謝委員衣鳯：院長，謝謝你，你要站著是不是？沒關係，你要站著。我是說你可以回座，你要站著是不是？好，你站、你站。"],["主席：院長，你要回座休息嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒關係、沒關係。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你要站著是不是？好。","楊總裁，我想請教一下，今年外界大家都在盛傳，也在研究9月份美國聯準會（Fed）會降息，你的看法是如何？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，市場是做這樣的一個price in，有這樣的一個預期。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有這樣的預期，你的看法呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，市場也蠻那個的啦……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你有很多估計模型，你的估計模型呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我是覺得美國在下半年有降息的機會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果它降了，我們央行會不會跟著降？我注意到了，你的央行理監事會就在聯準會的後面。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我跟委員報告，當然利率升降是由理事會來決定，不過美國降，大家都猜中央銀行也會降，其實我在幾次的場合都是這麼回答，事實上臺灣的情況跟美國的情況也不盡然相同，也就是說，不是全球都降，臺灣就一定降，但是臺灣會看國際的情況是怎麼樣、我們國內的情況是怎麼樣來做這個決定，這是理事會決定的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，所以你是有條件的，不一定會跟它降？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，當然。"],["謝委員衣鳯：什麼條件你會跟著它降？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果像美國調降的主要目的，第一個，他們的經濟情況就是下來了，主要是它的通膨下來、它的經濟情況也是下來，在這兩種情況之下，它就會調降，臺灣的話，我們的通膨率到目前為止已經差不多在2%左右，雖然我們的經濟成長是今年比去年好，但是稍微在復甦的動力……"],["謝委員衣鳯：去年是基期的關係，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員說得沒有錯，有一部分是基期的因素沒有錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我們昨天去看財金公司，我有看到對於數位貨幣的推廣，你們說我們現在所採用的就是Real-Time Gross Settlement，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們的交易量每秒可以到達100筆，比起現在你們的去識別化區塊鏈技術每秒只能10筆，你預計什麼時候我們去識別化、去中心化的區塊鏈技術可以到達每秒100筆以上？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以現在才正在那個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，什麼時候可以？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個時間表到目前為止，我們還沒有很明確在什麼時候就一定會達到。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有，你們的財金公司做的就是這些跨行結算、結清等等，所以你們對於這些財金公司的資本額是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：它的資本額昨天它也有說明。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們資本額很高，還有EPS也很好，你說不用分配回去，但是你們賺錢要回饋一般民眾嘛！是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：我昨天針對這個問題，我也有表達……"],["謝委員衣鳯：有，你有表達。"],["楊總裁金龍：我有表達我個人的意見，就是說像財金公司是比較屬於科技方面的，那科技方面的，你如果說看看其他國家的科技方面……我昨天有講，像……這種都是一定要讓它的技術能夠提升，它的人員待遇要能夠好一點，我昨天要強調的是這個。"],["謝委員衣鳯：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請沈發惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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?還是賴總統也要放在總統府?還有在成立一個才華收支的委員會?會不會他自己來做?是不是?"},{"start":464.881,"end":475.053,"text":"所以為什麼當初他希望做而今天執政了是因為你昨院長當行政院長他就不想要做了是不是?"},{"start":476.186,"end":479.289,"text":"所以你的說法跟財政部的莊部長一樣嘛先解決水平再解決垂直那是不是拖遲那為什麼不先解決垂直再解決水平呢是不是"},{"start":503.69,"end":526.203,"text":"先解決垂直分配,不要讓中央集權又集錢嘛。過去25年前在動審之後我們就討論要修財化收支法,但是到了現在我們還不願意把多的錢分配給地方,如果政府不願意"},{"start":527.083,"end":553.336,"text":"就是自己來做65歲以上的人讓所有的民眾能夠在六都跟在其他縣是一視同仁嘛那你們不做讓國民黨的地方政府來做嘛好不好報告委員我剛剛說我再說一次現在跟8年前相比給地方的補助多了3400億而且還有我們整體的預算也增加了我們整體的預算也增加了所以比例沒有增加"},{"start":554.957,"end":555.837,"text":"請問有沒有侵犯到?"},{"start":581.051,"end":605.152,"text":"謝謝委員我再次的說明昨天到互證日的頒獎其中有一個獎項就是人口政策的這個措施獎勵的機油獎所以我鼓勵現場的人員希望他們這個基礎上運用更多的AI技術去更精準的投放一些政策的宣導跟獎勵的措施給適合年齡的人是這個用意絕對沒有超越現在的做法"},{"start":606.093,"end":613.18,"text":"我一直主張AI要民主AI,以不侵犯人權的AI,有民主素養的AI,所以絕對不會侵犯人權。昨天的講法也絕對沒有超越..."},{"start":625.191,"end":625.211,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":650.935,"end":672.694,"text":"兩位請回,我想要請那個楊總裁跟我們的彭主委。總裁跟主委。院長謝謝你。你要站著是不是?沒關係啊,你要站著,好好好,你站你站。我是說你可以回座說。"},{"start":674.07,"end":700.323,"text":"你要站著是不是?好,你站,你站。院長,你要回座休息。沒關係沒關係。你要站著是不是?好好好。欸,楊總裁,我想請教一下,就教一下。就是,今年大家都,就是外界都在盛傳,也在研究,9月份美國聯準會法會降息嗎?那你的看法是如何?"},{"start":701.241,"end":727.671,"text":"是,那個市場是做這樣的一個Pricing,有這樣的一個預期。有這樣的預期,你的看法勒?市場也蠻那個的啦。你有很多估計模型,你的估計模型勒?我是覺得就是說美國在下半年這邊它有降息的機會。有,是不是?是。如果它降了。是。"},{"start":728.496,"end":744.158,"text":"我們央行會不會跟著降?我注意到了,你的央行的禮監事會就在聯整會的後面。是,我跟委員報告,當然就是說利率升降是由禮事會來決定。"},{"start":745.74,"end":762.171,"text":"那不過呢我就說美國這樣那大家都猜就是說中央銀行也會這樣那其實我在幾次的那個場合我也是這麼回答了就是說事實上台灣的情況跟美國的情況也不盡然是相同啦"},{"start":762.931,"end":783.187,"text":"所以就是說不是說全球都要這樣那台灣就一定這樣但是但是就是說台灣會看國際的情況是怎麼樣我們國內的情況是怎麼樣來做這個決定那這是理事會來決定的好所以你是有條件的不一定會跟他講什麼條件你會跟著他講"},{"start":785.502,"end":798.826,"text":"如果說像說那個美國他調降的主要的目的是第一個他的經濟情況就是下來了主要的是說他的通膨下來他的經濟情況也是下來那在這兩種情況之下他就會調降"},{"start":803.447,"end":829.114,"text":"那台灣的話呢我們的通膨率到目前為止都已經到差不多是在2%左右啦都已經在2%左右那我們的經濟成長呢雖然是今年比去年好但是呢是稍微就是說復甦啊那個動力是因為去年是積極的關係對不對對對對有一部分委員是沒有錯是有一部分是積極的一個因素對沒有錯"},{"start":829.907,"end":847.595,"text":"我們昨天去看財經公司,我有看到了對於數位貨幣的推廣,你們說到了我們現在所採用的就是real-time growth settlement,我們的交易量每秒可以到達100幣。"},{"start":849.235,"end":871.609,"text":"是比現在你們推估就是你們的技術去識別化的區塊鏈技術每秒只能10筆那你預計什麼時候我們去識別化去中心化的區塊鏈技術可以到達每秒100筆以上的這個結晶的所以現在才是正在那個嘛"},{"start":872.109,"end":897.717,"text":"什麼時候可以?這個時間表還到目前為止我們還沒有很明確的就說在什麼時候就一定會達到。還有那你們的財經公司那你們做的就是跨行這些就是結算啦結金啦等等那所以你們對於這些你們財經公司你們的資本額多少?"},{"start":900.117,"end":917.115,"text":"他的資本額昨天他也有說明啊。你們資本額很高欸,你EPS也很好欸。你說了不用分配回去,但是你們賺錢要回饋我們一般民眾嘛,是不是?"},{"start":918.316,"end":936.506,"text":"我昨天針對這個問題我也有表達我個人的意見就是說像財經公司它是比較屬於科技方面的那科技方面的你如果說看看其他國家的科技像UOCLIR我昨天也有講了還有"},{"start":949.997,"end":953.261,"text":"好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝卓院長下一位我們請審發會委員"}]}},{"id":"154426","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154426","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a15478276e96cc98bb9f22c12d918673f79f1a10a312273395242da132672c464fa9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"10:38:02 - 10:54:06","影片長度":"00:16:04","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T10:38:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T10:54:06+08:00","duration":964,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":460,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時38分）主席，我請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長備詢。"],["謝委員龍介：院長不用啦！貴人坐著休息就好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：部長你好。你辛苦了，出國幾天？"],["郭部長智輝：8天。"],["謝委員龍介：8天，辛苦了。我請問你，賴總統聘請你的時候，有沒有跟你說核能發電不能說？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有這樣說。"],["謝委員龍介：他沒有這樣說嘛！你也是一個企業家，我們南部小孩那個勇氣，勇敢面對臺灣現在能源布局的困境，這個困境是大家都理解的，如果用意識形態灌注在這個困境裡面，變成你我就沒辦法理性在這個國會殿堂來探討了，所以剛開始卓院長帶領你們這些團隊來的時候，我充滿期望：這不一樣啦！這個DNA跟民進黨的意識不同，臺灣有救了！殊不知你回去吃一頓飯，你的思想就被人改造了，柯建銘哪有那麼大的魔力呢？我對你很不捨啊！我也做過企業，如果一個企業界的人都沒辦法誠實面對他自己的人生及其所言的一切，那個企業是沒願景也沒前途，更無法受到社會大眾的認同。","總統成立了三個委員會，他的內閣組成一個月的時候，他就宣布要設三個委員會，這個清德兄說實在的可真糟糕！才剛把卓院長拱上檯面，卻晾在那邊把你忽略，於是大家就有樣學樣，沒樣就自己想，「大狗盤牆，細狗看樣」。我現在跟你講。卓院長在4天前也宣布要成立一個經濟發展委員會，那時你人還不在國內，我是替你打抱不平，所以我今天沒請他上來。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，這個部分，我想所有諮詢委員們的意思是說，形成一個大家的共識……"],["謝委員龍介：不要緊，我瞭解，有委屈你也不方便在這邊講。這一個多月的期間，大概也有40天了，你是哪天向卓院長表示你對這個職務有倦勤的想法？你是何時向他表達的？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們這個團隊都是一夥的，我是隨時都能向院長報告，隨時都能得到院長的支持。"],["謝委員龍介：你是何時……因為這也是人家跟我說的，我認為受到委屈就應該要勇敢面對，你應該要用你的專業，和你對臺灣現在陷入這個困境，我想你到美國才敢說真話。","臺灣人真奇怪，想用電卻不讓人發電，要喝水卻不讓人建水庫，我跟你講，不是臺灣人奇怪，是民進黨奇怪，我們都要很務實地面對這些問題啊！所以對於你表達倦勤之意，我是感同身受，也能夠理解，只是才一個多月而已，是難看了點。如果你即刻表達此意，這個內閣很快就會崩盤，因為我已經跟院長講過了，賴總統的個性我太瞭解了，他這個人就是「捏驚死，放驚飛」嘛！聘請你過來又不敢讓你大力去做事情，你對他也有一些誤判，我不知道我這樣跟你講，你內心能不能體會？他希望你能替他突破這個神主牌，結果你剛開始的時候還不錯，他對你的風評也不錯，覺得這個部長沒辜負我任用他的苦心，結果你突破沒兩下，和柯建銘吃頓飯就退縮了，這就表示你不瞭解賴清德。其實他聘請你來當部長就是希望你能夠去突破，你能撐多久則在其次。","你的突破讓他可以有空間去調整整個國家的能源政策，這樣你對臺灣提出了貢獻，這是你最大的功能。如果你是回到非核的神主牌內，這個部長就不需要你當了，對不對？他可以隨便找個民進黨的人，讓王美花繼續做就好了嘛！所以用你的精髓就在這裡，你沒有體會到，所以才會造成這一個多月以來的矛盾。部長你看看，你也不用點頭，我知道你為難啦！基於政治倫理，你也不便在這裡表達這些，你要繼續拚嗎？","我們現在就說這個核三廠好了，7月到了，剛剛院長才跟人家說，只要法律修正通過，我就依法行政，我也知道你是依法行政，我也是依法行政，但你沒有一個態度。經濟部願意針對這個法提出你們的版本嗎？一句話就好。"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部如果大院通過這個……"],["謝委員龍介：不用大院通過，我們要修法，你們要不要相挺？我跟你說，你不能都靠我們，你拿我們的拳頭去打石獅子，對不對？我是無所謂……"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我向你報告……"],["謝委員龍介：我敢挺你，但是你敢讓我挺嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝，我相信應該可以讓你挺。"],["謝委員龍介：你敢讓我挺就對了？"],["郭部長智輝：當然是，我為國家、為百姓來做事情。"],["謝委員龍介：所以你話這樣講就有藝術，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我為國家、為百姓來做事情，我當然是需要大家……"],["謝委員龍介：是啊！所以核能不繼續臺灣人要死嘛！說更難聽的，要發展什麼？我跟你說，以前我們騎摩托車是二行程的，你跟我差不多同年，二行程的你有騎過嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["謝委員龍介：南部二行程的……"],["郭部長智輝：偉士牌。"],["謝委員龍介：對，你還知道偉士牌，再來是吃高級的，我跟你說，現在都吃電的，摩托車也吃電，車也吃電，家庭用品也吃電，AI也吃電，機器人也吃電，你只有用太陽能發電，這張相片你看一下。院長，你可以上來了，請你。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["謝委員龍介：部長，你辛苦、委屈，但是要堅強啦！一定挺你的啦！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["謝委員龍介：院長，這張相片是世界知名的國家地理雜誌2023年攝影比賽地方組的冠軍，這張相片全世界大家看得很恐怖，在我們臺南六甲，太陽能發電的官商勾結，我一直跟你們說，你都跟我說有辦，院長，不是不能發展太陽能，我們南部人沒有人排斥太陽能發電，你聽懂了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["謝委員龍介：臺南第一名，屏東現在第二名，快要超越我們臺南了，你這趟有回去枋寮看過嗎？搞到農民是欲哭無淚，我跟你說這個勾結在哪裡？它就是因為我們國家為了要發電，沒辦法，我們要發電要用政策來支持它，對不對？這合理啊！可是它利用我們政策的模糊空間，「鰗鰡巡便空」。我跟你說，農地買賣免稅，院長，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：嗯。"],["謝委員龍介：他用農地買賣，然後用假的實價登記，譬如我跟你買2億，我登記6億，結果農民是免稅的，免稅之後登記6億叫做實價登記，他實際付2億而已，我說到這裡法務部還沒辦法查，叫它包起來。6億跟銀行借多少？可以借4億8，最笨的可以借4億2，我們的銀行是全力配合，為什麼銀行要借4億2？銀行不會虧，因為他說未來20年發電的收入可以攤還，所以銀行沒有風險，再來他的設備銀行一樣可以貸款，一見面就先在我們國家花2億買地，然後就先撈2.5億回去。院長，我跟你說，過去的勾結跟你卓榮泰內閣完全沒有關係，這我也敢跟你保證，但是你如果不查就變成包庇，你就有關係。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會查、會查。"],["謝委員龍介：會查？肯定會查？"],["卓院長榮泰：會查。"],["謝委員龍介：你這個「查」不是為了我謝龍介查的……"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不是。"],["謝委員龍介：是為臺灣人，為了我們後面……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你說，我們現在要從8.5%到15%，未來要發展到30%，因為若是核能能夠再重啟，這是好事，若是不能，若太陽能發電沒有提升到25%以上、甚至不到30%以上，未來光是世界的碳費、碳權，我告訴你，企業界沒有幾個撐得住的，我還語重心長的跟你說，過去8年碳權的事情，我很捨不得，政府空轉，甚至現在大家都搞不清楚，尤其歐盟。最近美國這個系統，大家去種一大堆樹，你也知道是作假的。去年8月臺灣有成立碳權交易中心，說實在是掩人耳目，很難看、很漏氣，有交易嗎？你說要打擊黑金，清德兄也說要打擊黑金，你知不知道我們的碳權交易中心成立在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：碳費的收費，我們現在要進入一個階段……"],["謝委員龍介：碳權交易中心、交易所，你不知道我們臺灣有碳權交易所？"],["卓院長榮泰：就像你說的，那個功能不好。"],["謝委員龍介：我們有成立耶！去年8月我們國家有成立耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道沒功能。"],["謝委員龍介：除了沒功能外，我再跟你說它成立在哪裡。你知道獵雷艦的慶富案？你聽過嗎？掏空我們兩百多億，而這個交易所竟然成立在慶富大樓的二樓，為什麼？是民進黨欠他很多，還是臺灣人欠他很多？院長，這些你都要去查啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：地點跟實際運作的，應該不是絕對啦！"],["謝委員龍介：當然啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛講到碳費、碳權，就是因為我們現在一些子法還沒完成，我們7月5日就要開始進入新的階段。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！臺灣那麼多地方可以成立，為什麼偏偏去跟慶富租二樓？租金怎樣、裝修費怎樣，那些讓檢察官去查，那個跟你沒關係啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：司法調查後我再向委員報告。"],["謝委員龍介：我要跟你講的是，口罩有國家隊，雞蛋有國家隊，快篩也有國家隊，我覺得你新的內閣要有新的魄力手段，你知道現在各大醫院的輸液都不夠，為什麼你會把署長換下來？你換下來是正確的，若你沒換下來，我跟你說，我砲火就開下去了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我完全尊重衛福部人事的考慮，我支持。"],["謝委員龍介：因為怎麼樣？輸液可以成立國家隊嗎？你把那間本來在生產的公司，不管這間公司對不對，它違規，你就處罰它，結果一處罰變成不能生產，但它的產能這麼大，你現在還要花三、四倍的錢去外面進口，你進口的這間是否又是另外一間小吃店我是不知道啦！誰去進口的、憑什麼可以進口？食藥署耶！食藥署是不是能派人進駐並徵收這間工廠，它現在是停業，我們不讓它做了、停牌嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：它違反製作過程。"],["謝委員龍介：現在一進去，立即恢復生產，在國家的監控之下，可以用這樣的手段做嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們最近剛決定要加強跟這個公司協調，看要怎麼改善它的生產設備，在短時間內一定要提出一個解決方法。"],["謝委員龍介：不用協調啦，用強硬的手段，在沒有影響到公司企業原本的權益之下，用強硬的手段去執行，解決燃眉之急，院長，這才是做事的態度啦！","還有，你說電價審議委員會一年開兩次，你是不好意思宣布，我在這裡替你宣布，今年度絕對不會再漲電價，你們儘管放心，這是我謝龍介說的，不是卓榮泰院長說的啦！你不好意思在這裡這樣說，會對那些委員不夠尊重啦！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我尊重委員。"],["主席：謝謝謝委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，經濟組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息10分鐘，休息之後進行財政組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（10時54分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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發電的過程最糟糕,我一直跟你們說,你們都跟我說有辦法,因為不是不能發電太陽能,我們南北南無人擺脫太陽能發電,你聽到沒有?是。台南第一名,屏東現在第二名,將要落過我們台南了,你這次不知道有沒有回去旁邊看一看沒有啊。衝到農民是要哭無幕賽啦,齁?"},{"start":548.803,"end":562.885,"text":"我告訴你這個狡猾在哪裡?他就是因為我們國家委員會發展,沒辦法立法,我們要發展,我們要用政策來支持,對不對?這合理啊!可是他利用我們政策,模糊的空間,保留順便康。我跟你說,龍蝶買不買水你知道嗎?他用龍蝶買不買?"},{"start":579.861,"end":584.463,"text":"臨後用假的10個定期,例如說我給你買2億,我定期6億,給各農民的,他是免稅的。我們免稅之後,這個定期6億叫做10個定期,他10個付2億而已,啊如果我公告這裡我沒有報告,沒有再調查,叫他包起來。6億銀行這麼多,可以做4億倍。"},{"start":609.586,"end":609.606,"text":"對阿!"},{"start":639.266,"end":657.355,"text":"他跟我說,我跟你說的是過去的局局跟你對應台的內閣完全無關的。這我也跟你回應了。但是你若沒查就變成保庇。你對有關的。會查?會查?全局會查?會查。你這個查不是為了我謝龍介查的。當然不是。為台灣人。是。"},{"start":662.956,"end":670.827,"text":"為了我們阿伯,我告訴你,我們現在要對10%,北京5%到15%,發展到30%未來啦,因為你,如果婚姻,可以重複,這是好事,如果是要動,"},{"start":679.079,"end":689.627,"text":"你若這個太陽營發電若沒有下升到25%以上,我會說你現在說的20%沒有,甚至沒有30%以上,未來跟這個世界的脫費、脫款,我告訴你,這企業沒幾個賺得到的。我再重新告訴你,過去的八年,脫款的事情,"},{"start":706.889,"end":712.83,"text":"很不敢,政府抗爭,甚至選出來,什麼都沒來中,什麼都沒來中,尤其歐盟啊。最近美國這個系統,大家想我講一大堆,你也知道,過的。九年八月,在台灣有升入托款教育中心,"},{"start":735.247,"end":763.493,"text":"那實在講,那摩斯暗幕啊,很難看,很漏氣啊,我有教育沒有啊。啊你說要打擊五金,聖地兄說要打擊五金啊。你知不知道我們的打款教育中心在哪裡?打費的收費,我們現在要進行一個改善。打款的教育中心啊,教育所啦。你不知道我們台灣有打款教育所?就這麼講的那個公領,都..."},{"start":765.117,"end":787.85,"text":"我們有勝任的,我們九年八月國高有勝任的。沒有公認,我知道。沒有公認,沒有公認基礎,那勝任在哪裡我告訴你。這個雷震、蠟燭的慶富案你知道嗎?你聽到沒有?知道嗎?把我們掏空兩百多年。這個高野獸竟然去勝任在慶富大樓的二樓。現在為什麼民進黨欠他很多錢?還是台灣人欠他很多錢?"},{"start":795.387,"end":798.15,"text":"臺灣那些臺灣所謂的成立,你獨自去跟政府做這個理由。"},{"start":816.428,"end":826.254,"text":"所謂安裝裝修復安裝,那讓檢察官去查啦,那和你無關的啦。我跟你說的就是這樣嘛。我調查一下給委員報告。水安有國家隊,雞蛋有國家隊。我可以有國家隊,我感覺你新內閣要有新配樂的手段嘛。你知道現在國大變異,這輸贏都不夠嘛。"},{"start":845.191,"end":873.771,"text":"為什麼你會把這個輸掉換下來?你換下來是正確的。你沒換下來,我跟你說,我泡沫就把你開下去了。我完全尊重合不保運的臨時的考慮啦,我支持。因為怎麼樣?這輸液,可以成立國家隊嗎?你把一間人本來在生產,不管這間公司對不對,他就違規你給他出發嘛。出發變不成生產嘛。他的三年那天大。"},{"start":875.609,"end":885.933,"text":"你現在又開三、四倍錢去外面進口!你進口的這間不知道是不是又是另外一間小吃店,我是不知道啦!啊誰去進口的?憑什麼可以進口?你是不是會當食藥署、食藥署咧?派出另外一間店把錢收這間工廠!他現在是停了,我們不可以讓他走了嘛!停牌嘛!"},{"start":901.448,"end":921.742,"text":"委員製庭的規定：一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":932.988,"end":949.483,"text":"阿還有齁,你說電解、起解委員會齁,一天開兩倍嘛齁,阿你是抱歉選擇啦,我是在這裡替你選擇。今年剛好對不上起電解,你們做你們放心啦齁,這謝龍介講的不是對應台議長講的啦,他抱歉在這裡這樣講啦,對他的委員沒夠尊重啦,對不對?我尊重委員"},{"start":959.684,"end":960.025,"text":"謝謝謝委員謝謝卓院長"}]}},{"id":"154425","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154425","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a154764338f888892a59b2c12d918673f79f1a10a312273395242d3cf3aacb0270ff95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:22:09 - 10:37:57","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T10:22:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T10:37:57+08:00","duration":948,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":410,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時22分）謝謝主席，我想請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長好，因為這是經濟組的詢答，我想先問一下，因為最近AI實在太熱了，你覺得全臺灣最適合設立AI生態園區的地方在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣應該有很多地方都有這樣的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有其中之一，最適合的地方。"],["卓院長榮泰：那委員問一定是講新竹。"],["鄭委員正鈐：感謝院長，確實，因為院長知道我來自新竹，所以我肯定為新竹來發聲，我也用ChatGPT生成式AI問了一下，它確實也給出了一個很具體的答案，它覺得全臺灣最適合的地方就在新竹市，包括IC設計園區，它也覺得全臺灣最適合的地方就在新竹市。坦白說，這也是這幾十年來新竹竹科發展之後一個很好的成果。我們知道賴政府也準備要推桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，新竹被涵蓋在其中，所以我們希望在整個桃竹苗大矽谷計畫當中能夠把竹科X二期規劃進來，竹科X二期是新竹市正在推動的一個都市計畫區域，就在科學園區附近，院長，有沒有辦法讓竹科X二期變成配合桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的一個國家重大建設？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我認為國科會已經很密集的在研究各種方案，以及跟新竹市乃至於新竹縣政府共同研究商討當中，希望這個時程能夠配合大家的需求，以及未來迎接科技大廠進來或是國內廠商使用的速度來進行調整。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝院長，因為你一開始說，你也覺得在新竹是很適合做AI生態園區……"],["卓院長榮泰：歷史悠久，相當好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以，我一定要對你非常的溫和，而且全力支持你繼續推動新竹成立AI生態園區。可是因為現在全世界很多大廠都想要進駐臺灣，包括Google、微軟、Amazon、NVIDIA都表示要進來，甚至Apple也表示想在臺灣設立一個超算中心，我們知道臺灣原本的高科技製造業很厲害，可是成立超算中心之後，我們希望讓超算中心的算力變成一個服務業，而不再只是製造業，所以我們事實上對這個部分肯定是支持的。","可是當我們看到很多大廠想要到臺灣來的時候，就不得不去考慮用電到底夠不夠。說實話，郭部長剛被點名接任部長的時候，我跟他有過對話，他當時對臺灣的核能政策保持一個相對開放的態度，就像我們看到童子賢擔任環境變遷委員會副召集人這樣一個角色的時候，我發現他們對於能源的看法其實是比較開放的，可是坦白說，後來可能是在和民進黨的委員再次溝通之後，我發現他的說法有一點縮回去。可是我覺得重點就是怎麼樣讓臺灣不缺電，這是最大的前提，所以我想在這邊再次問一下卓院長，臺灣未來10年會不會缺電？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長講過很多次，我們也是這樣子認為，我們在2030年之前是有很充裕的準備，未來我們還有新的電廠會加進來，要看新電廠的建設速度，但是我們會持續來加……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，至少你確保2030年之前不缺電，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在是這樣子。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。坦白說，因為整個國際也都非常關注臺灣到底缺不缺電，甚至黃仁勳在離開臺灣之前在臺北電腦展的時候也表示，用電確實是他關心的議題，我知道部長到美國去，也拜訪了很多相關的高階的公司，也希望他們到臺灣來，可是我相信，電也是他們考慮的一個點。","我們看到一個狀態就是，整個外媒對於臺灣用電不足的問題其實是完全不手軟，從2023年7月，華爾街日報就表示，臺灣97%的電來自於國外，會產生重大的國安風險；今年4月彭博（Bloomberg）就直接表示，臺灣靠本土風電要有停電的心理準備；韓國也想發展AI，他們擔心能源問題，就直接表示不要重蹈臺灣的覆轍，這是韓國媒體，都是今年講的；美國智庫也直接表示，台積電到熊本設廠就是因為臺灣電力不足；包括日本經濟新聞，也直接點名我們賴清德總統，說要重新評估核電政策等等；最新一期的美國新聞週刊也直接表示，能源是臺灣國家安全的致命弱點。","這些部分都表示，國際很關心臺灣，那我們臺灣一定更關心自己用電的情況。所以我在想說，當我們剛剛點到這麼多大廠要進到臺灣來的時候，我們的用電到2030年還是足夠的嗎？因為我看了高盛最近的一份報告，它說當美國普遍在設立AI算力中心、普遍使用AI之後，美國的用電很可能會成長2倍，在這樣的情況之下，甚至也有很多像OpenAI、Amazon，都在自籌核能發電或者是併購核電相關設施。所以我想再次請問，在這麼多國際大廠要到臺灣來的時候，我們電還是夠的嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想就這一部分，2030年為止，我們是有把握提供穩定的電給這些大廠。我這次在美國也跟很多大廠交換過意見，確實如委員所指教的，他們對電是非常的重視，目前來看，以我們現有的電力容量跟我們要下載的這些，算出來以後，到2030年我們其實是增加的，我們會增加兩百多MW。但我要跟委員報告，就是我們參考了新加坡的資料，新加坡也是一樣，他們從現在2024年到2030年會增加1.4 Giga，用在這個……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，部長，這個部分我之前有跟你對話過，我大概理解，不過我這邊要特別提到，因為我認為你跟童子賢都是業界非常優秀的企業人士，我覺得你們很務實在看待電力的問題。童子賢也直接提到，非核家園讓臺灣的能源政策陷入四個困境：成本變高、韌性變差、空污變多，甚至會造成很大的環境污染問題。他認為如果我們的能源政策持續這樣的狀態，很可能會阻礙到整個臺灣未來的發展，我相信他講這個部分是一個良心的說法。","那我也調了一個情況，現在我們在講用電夠的問題的時候，不只是夠，它還有用電性質的問題，所以再生能源發展本席是支持的，可是我要特別提到低碳能源，低碳的電也是重要的，我們看到目前112年底的時候，整個臺灣低碳能源占比只有16.9%，在全球排名是非常後面的111名，比很多新興的開發中國家都還要低。那我再調了一下到今年5月份的時候，有稍微提高一點點，非碳能源的部分到了18.1%。這裡面我要特別提到一個狀態是太陽光電跟核能的部分，因為現在撇除核能之外，最大的再生能源就是光電的部分，所以我相信光電肯定還是我們現在政府要力推的一個再生能源方向，應該是這樣子吧？部長，是吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，預定2025年的年底，我們希望在這一部分能夠來到20%，不過因為過去COVID的關係……"],["鄭委員正鈐：到20%是整個再生能源到20%，還是光電要到20%？"],["郭部長智輝：光電。"],["鄭委員正鈐：光電要到20%？"],["郭部長智輝：但是過去這兩、三年因為COVID的關係，我們有一部分delay，所以我們可能要再延一年，到2026年才有辦法達到20%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，部長，這個部分你之後再來跟我溝通，因為光電本身2026到20%幾乎是完全不可能的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告，在20%當中，光電應該是占到8.4%，風電占到7.6%……"],["鄭委員正鈐：再生能源在2026要到20%，對不對？這會不會跳票？院長，會不會跳票？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在2026年會達到這個目標。"],["鄭委員正鈐：不會跳票嘛！OK。那我要特別講，所以光電基本上還是主力嘛！對不對？部長，因為我剛剛特別提到，光電跟再生能源其實有一些不太一樣的地方，我現在就特別提到光電的部分，我們來看一下整個發電業申請設置審查及作業流程籌設或擴建審查流程圖，看一下這個部分，給院長看一下這個流程圖，這是很具體的一個公文書，請問院長，它第六項特別提到應備文件，其中第六點是養殖戶同意證明文件，在參與土地上面要籌設漁電共生，因為漁電共生是光電裡面很重要的一環，那麼我想要問一下，養殖戶同意證明文件應該要由誰來簽署？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，養殖為本，綠能加值，這個是整個的基本原則跟精神，所以應該是一方面讓養殖業能夠有生產，增加綠能，也增加農村、漁村的發展才對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有問題，院長，漁電共生這個政策我們也支持，因為對再生能源的提高我們都支持。我要問的狀態其實是說，因為我們一開始在籌設的時候就要求發電業者必須要取得養殖戶的同意證明文件，就表示他們一開始這些費用就要先出去，那出去之後，因為我們籌設電其實有三個階段，一開始籌設之後到施工許可，到最後的發電執照下來，三個階段的時候，那是不是要在第一階段就取得養殖戶的同意書，我覺得這邊可以考量。這個部分我沒有特別大的意見，因為整個要走，最後也是要有，可是當你一開始就要有的時候，他如果沒有走到最後，可能就會產生很多的弊端，所以現在為什麼有這麼多的光電弊案，跟這肯定是有一些關聯性的，因為我看到部長一直在點頭，部長要不要回答一下？"],["郭部長智輝：我相當同意委員的指教，這一部分因為實際業者他們比較擔心的是這個樣子，就是他可能養得不是那麼順利，所以發電可能就沒有辦法達到當初預期的目的，不過這一部分，我想我們會再跟農業部討論怎麼樣放寬，讓業者能夠順利把電發出來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告，請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員補充說明一下，目前光電業者跟地主，地主如果把這個地承租給另外的人養殖，那就是三方，這個三方的部分，我們其實跟經濟部那時候有研擬一個共同的合約範本，以確保光電業者跟地主跟養殖的業者、養殖戶本身之間能夠切合權益的保障……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這沒問題。陳部長，謝謝你主動站上來，因為這個事情確實跟農業部、經濟部、能源署，還有國產署都有關，因為目前有很多的漁電共生的狀態都是來自於國產署的土地。我們再往下看，這是能源署發出來的一個文件，它直接表示發電的業者必須要取得承租戶的同意書，還有實際養殖戶的同意書。部長能不能說明一下什麼叫做承租戶的同意書跟實際養殖戶的同意書？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個部分就是我剛才說的，有些土地本身地主並沒有經營，他是委託人家經營……"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為這邊是國產署的土地，國產署的土地按照國產署土地使用的方式，它是不能夠任意轉租、轉讓，所以為什麼會有一個承租戶跟實際養殖戶的狀態？我希望陳部長這邊要協助經濟部、能源署、國產署把這個問題解決，好不好？否則我們會碰到當我們需要很多再生能源，光電是主力的時候，可是發現相關部門的橫向連結完全是不夠的，所以當這個產業在推動的時候，完全沒有辦法滿足能源署的要求，我希望院長這邊能夠找我們經濟部、財政部、國產署，還有我們農業部一起來解決這個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我想農業部本身會跟經濟部，還有應該是財政部……"],["卓院長榮泰：國產署。"],["陳部長駿季：跟財政部國產署，我們會來討論這個議題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。這部分再請院長協調解決之後，再給本辦公室一個很清楚的結論。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員指教，再給委員答復。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位請謝龍介委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.30471875,"end":5.363468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.549093750000001,"end":6.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.88221875,"end":6.8990937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.16346875,"end":16.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.922843750000002,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.93971875,"end":30.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.76034375,"end":32.127218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.650343750000005,"end":34.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.74721875,"end":36.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.548468750000005,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.252843750000004,"end":106.79909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.57534375,"end":114.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.84846875000001,"end":126.59346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.91409375,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.34221875,"end":217.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.97159375,"end":234.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.21784375000001,"end":237.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.77846875,"end":252.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.98721875,"end":257.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.18971875000003,"end":253.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.71659375,"end":257.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.42534375,"end":287.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.04971875,"end":285.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.88471875,"end":328.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.02596875,"end":358.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.04659375,"end":371.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.61409375000005,"end":388.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.62846875,"end":394.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.51784375,"end":395.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.58096875,"end":399.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.68159375000005,"end":403.79909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.20409375,"end":411.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.06784375,"end":414.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.00409375000004,"end":419.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.11721875,"end":421.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.45034375,"end":423.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.72846875000005,"end":428.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.89221875000004,"end":441.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":441.27846875,"end":507.12471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":507.27659375,"end":543.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":544.2834687500001,"end":548.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.46846875,"end":548.6203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":549.2278437500001,"end":550.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.3459687500001,"end":549.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.0378437500001,"end":550.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.40909375,"end":550.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.54409375,"end":550.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.6115937500001,"end":551.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.69596875,"end":555.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.99471875,"end":559.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.97721875,"end":561.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":561.81659375,"end":561.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.95159375,"end":561.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":561.96846875,"end":563.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":563.3859687500001,"end":566.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.7947187500001,"end":567.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":567.85784375,"end":569.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.22471875,"end":573.5615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.7978437500001,"end":577.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.3203437500001,"end":582.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.35409375,"end":578.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":578.52284375,"end":578.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.72471875,"end":583.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":583.90596875,"end":591.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.33534375,"end":595.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.3134687500001,"end":598.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.3472187500001,"end":595.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":597.35534375,"end":601.4053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":602.45159375,"end":603.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.29096875,"end":606.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":606.1640937500001,"end":612.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start"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GPT生產室的AI我來問一下他確實也給出了一個很具體的答案他覺得全臺灣最適合的地方就在新竹市"},{"start":58.474,"end":78.684,"text":"包括了IC設計園區,他也覺得全台灣最適合的地方都在新竹市。這也是坦白說這幾十年來新竹竹科發展之後一個很好的成果。坦白說我們知道賴政府這邊其實也準備要推桃竹苗大細股計畫,也把新竹涵蓋在這當中。"},{"start":79.884,"end":79.904,"text":"院長﹖"},{"start":108.051,"end":126.443,"text":"我認為國客會已經很密集的在研究各種方案以及跟新竹市乃至於新竹縣政府共同的研究商討當中那希望這個時程能夠配合大家的需求以及未來迎接這個科技大廠進來或是國內的廠商使用的速度來做進行調整"},{"start":127.647,"end":147.37,"text":"謝謝院長,因為你一開始講說你也覺得在新竹是很適合做AI生態園區的時候,所以我一定要對你非常的溫和,而且全力支持你繼續推動新竹成立AI生態園區。可是因為現在全世界很多大廠都想要進駐台灣來,那麼包括"},{"start":147.91,"end":147.93,"text":"﹚鄭正鈐"},{"start":168.49,"end":193.669,"text":"的算力他變成了一個服務業而不再只是製造業所以我們事實上對這個部分肯定是支持的可是當我們在看到很多大廠想要到臺灣來的時候呢我們就不得不去考慮用電到底夠不夠那說實話就是郭部長其實剛被點名接任部長的時候呢那我跟他對話"},{"start":195.811,"end":215.142,"text":"他當時對於臺灣的核能政策保持一個相對開放的一個政策,就像我們看到了童子賢我們的環境變遷委員會的副主委,副召集的這樣一個角色的時候,我發現他們對於能源的看法其實是比較開放的,可是後來坦白說,國務長後來被"},{"start":218.044,"end":237.212,"text":"民進黨的委員後來可能也再一次溝通之後我發現他的說法有一點丟回去可是我覺得重點就是怎麼樣讓台灣不缺電我覺得這是最大的一個前提那我想說在這邊再一次的問一下卓院長台灣在未來10年會不會缺電"},{"start":239.197,"end":264.153,"text":"部長講過很多次我們也是這樣的認為我們在2030年之前我們是有很充裕的這個準備啦那未來我們還有新的電廠會加起來那看新的電廠的建設的速度但是我們會持續來加至少你確保2030年之前不缺電對不對那因為坦白說因為整個國際也都非常關注台灣到底缺不缺電甚至於說"},{"start":265.554,"end":284.69,"text":"黃宇勳在離開臺灣之前那個臺北電腦展的時候他也表示用電確實是他關心的議題那我知道就是部長剛到美國去也去拜訪了很多相關的一個高企業公司也希望他們到臺灣來可是我相信電也是他們考慮的一個點那我們看到一個狀態就是整個外媒對於臺灣用電其實"},{"start":287.97,"end":306.991,"text":"除了問題其實是完全不手軟完全不手軟我們看到一下就是從2023年7月華爾街日報就表示97%的電來自於國外會產生重大國安風險今年4月彭博就直接表示說臺灣靠本土風電臺灣會要有停電心理準備"},{"start":309.353,"end":330.306,"text":"韓國也想發展AI,但擔心能源問題,就直接表示不要重蹈台灣的覆轍。美國智庫也直接表示台積電到熊本設廠是因為台灣電力不足。包括日本經濟新聞也直接點名賴慶德總統要重新評估核電的政策。"},{"start":333.648,"end":353.884,"text":"等等。那麼最新的美國的新聞週刊也直接表示能源是臺灣國家安全的致命弱點。這些部分就表示國際很關心臺灣。那我們臺灣一定更關心臺灣用電的一個情況。那我在想說這麼多大廠進來的時候我們剛點到這麼多大廠要進到臺灣來的時候我們用電到2030年還是會"},{"start":359.128,"end":387.551,"text":"足夠嗎?因為我看了高盛最近的一個報告,他說當美國普遍在設立AI算力中心,普遍使用AI之後,美國的用電很可能會成長兩倍,很可能會成長兩倍。那在這樣的一個情況之下的時候,甚至於說有很多像是AI、Amazon,他們甚至於都在自籌核能發電或者去併購核電相關的問題。所以我想要再次問,"},{"start":388.712,"end":394.114,"text":"在這麼多國際大廠要到臺灣來的時候我們電還是夠嗎?"},{"start":394.114,"end":413.9,"text":"院長報告委員我想就這一部分2030年為止我們是有把握提供穩定的這個電給這些大廠那我這一次在美國我也跟很多的這些大廠交換過意見確實他們如委員所指教的他們對電是非常的這個重視"},{"start":415.781,"end":436.419,"text":"我們目前來看我們算我們現有的這個電力容量跟我們要下載的這些出來以後到2030年我們其實是增加的我們有增加200多MW但我要跟各位跟委員報告就是我們參考的新加坡的資料新加坡也是一樣他們從現在2024年到2030年他們會增加1.4G用在這個"},{"start":441.323,"end":462.441,"text":"OK,部長,這個部分我想我之前有跟你對話過,我大概理解。不過我這邊要特別提到,因為童子賢,因為我認為你跟童子賢都是業界非常優秀的企業人士,我覺得很務實在看電力的問題。童子賢他也直接提到,非核家園讓台灣的能源政策陷入四個困境。"},{"start":463.001,"end":463.021,"text":"﹚鄭正鈐"},{"start":487.073,"end":503.899,"text":"﹗"},{"start":504.619,"end":524.608,"text":"低碳能源占比只有16.9在全球排名非常的後面111名非常的後面比很多新興的開發中國家都還要低那我再調了一下到今年5月份的時候我稍微提高一點點到了18.1非碳能源的部分到18.1"},{"start":526.249,"end":547.822,"text":"那這裡面我要特別提到一個狀態是太陽光電跟核能的部分因為現在撇除核能之外最大的一個再生能源就是光電的一個部分所以我相信光電肯定還是我們現在政府要力推的一個再生能源的方向應該是這樣子吧"},{"start":549.524,"end":565.249,"text":"是的,大概到預定2025年的年底,我們希望在這部分能夠來到20%,不過因為過去COVID-19的關係...到20%是整個再生能源到20%還是光電要到20%?光電"},{"start":567.95,"end":592.624,"text":"光電要到20%但是現在因為在過去這個兩三年因為這個COVID的關係所以我們有一部分這個delay所以我們可能要再延一年到2026年才有辦法達到20%OK部長這個部分你之後再來跟我溝通因為光電本身要到2020要到20%幾乎是完全不可能的我剛剛委員報告光在20%當中光電應該是佔到8.4%"},{"start":595.385,"end":597.967,"text":"我現在特別提到光電的部分我們來看一下"},{"start":622.645,"end":636.832,"text":"在整個發言業的申請、設置、審查及作業流程籌設還有擴建審查流程圖,看一下這個部分,來,給院長看一下這個流程圖,請問院長,往後,來,來這個地方,這個流程圖,院長,"},{"start":647.299,"end":672.601,"text":"這是很具體的一個公文書請問院長他第6項特別提到的應備文件第6點養殖戶同意證明文件在有簽署土地上面要籌設餘電共生因為餘電共生是光電裡面很重要的一環那麼我想要問一下這個養殖戶同意證明文件應該要由誰來簽署"},{"start":676.771,"end":704.922,"text":"報告委員這個養殖為本綠能加值這個是整個的基本的原則跟精神所以應該是以一方面從讓養殖業能夠有生產增加綠能也增加這個農村漁村的這個發展才對而且沒有問題就是院長這個漁電共生社政策我們也支持因為對再生能源的提高我們都支持我要問的狀態其實說因為我們在一開始就是在重設的時候就要求"},{"start":705.802,"end":722.913,"text":"就是發電業者他們必須要取得這個養殖戶的同意證明文件就表示他們一開始這些費用就要先出去那出去之後因為我們成設電機有三個階段"},{"start":725.655,"end":737.846,"text":"一開始籌設之後呢那麼到最後的一個施工許可到最後一個的一個發電執照下來三個階段的時候那是不是要在第一階段就要取得就是養殖戶的"},{"start":739.343,"end":740.864,"text":"我看到部長一直在點頭,部長你要不要回答一下?"},{"start":761.64,"end":782.854,"text":"我相當同意委員你的指教。這一部分因為實際業者他們在比較擔心的是這個樣子,就是可能養不是那麼順利,所以發電可能就沒有辦法達到當初預期的目的。不過這一部分我想我們會再跟農業部再來討論,怎麼樣放寬這一些讓業者能夠順利的把電發出來。"},{"start":790.539,"end":814.178,"text":"OK,我跟委員補充說明一下,就是現在目前光電業者跟地主,地主如果說把這個地承租給另外人養殖的話,那就是三方。那這個三方的部分我們其實跟經濟部那時候有研擬一個共同的一個合約的一個範本。以確保光電業者跟地主跟養殖的業者,養殖戶本身,"},{"start":814.998,"end":839.097,"text":"OK 這沒問題陳部長謝謝你主動站上來因為這個事情確實跟農業部經濟部能源署還有國產署都有關因為目前有很多的漁電共生的狀態都是來自於國產署的土地我們再往下看這是能源署發出來的一個文件他直接表示就是"},{"start":841.932,"end":847.058,"text":"發言的業者他們必須要取得承租戶的同意書還有實際養殖戶的同意書"},{"start":854.602,"end":881.711,"text":"部長您可以說明一下什麼叫做成豬戶的同意書跟實際養殖戶的同意書我想這個部分就是我剛才說的就是有些土地他本身地主並沒有經營他是委託人家經營來因為這個國產署的土地喔國產署的土地按照國產署土地使用的方式他是不能夠任意轉租轉讓所以說為什麼會有一個成豬戶跟實際"},{"start":886.239,"end":900.99,"text":"我希望陳部長這邊要協助經濟部、能源署、國產署這邊把這個問題解決好不好因為否則我們會碰到了當我們需要很多再生能源、光電是主力的時候可是發現"},{"start":902.751,"end":916.401,"text":"我們相關的部門橫向的連結完全是不夠的所以當他們這個產業在推動的時候完全沒有辦法滿足能源署的要求我希望院長這邊能夠找我們經濟部然後財政部、國產署還有我們農業部一起來解決這個問題"},{"start":938.853,"end":939.854,"text":"謝謝鄭委員。謝謝卓院長。下一位請謝榮介委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"154424","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154424","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a15473f572955ee593b8f2c12d918673f79f1a10a312273395242d6c0f0b264154b055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:06:10 - 10:22:02","影片長度":"00:15:52","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T10:06:10+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T10:22:02+08:00","duration":952,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":294,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時6分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員，大家早。有請卓院長和經濟部郭部長、農業部陳部長。"],["主席：卓院長、陳部長還有郭部長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好、兩位部長好。院長，昨天我們共同出席了中央通訊社100週年的慶祝活動，對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我很欣賞你最後結尾的那句話，你說大家都慶祝中央社100歲生日快樂，你說你希望能跟它講100次的生日快樂，這意味著中央通訊社還要再經營100年以上，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說100聲，我沒有辦法講100次。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你還要再活100歲啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是100聲啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我也學到了，以後在我跟我老婆的結婚週年紀念日，我會跟她說：老婆，我希望再跟你講100次的結婚週年快樂。"],["卓院長榮泰：千萬不要，這代表年齡。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，其實我在昨天中央通訊社的社慶聽了，到底通訊社相較於新聞業是什麼呢？我倒覺得它有一點像台積電，它本身沒有媒體，但是它透過供應給各個新聞媒體把它的正確新聞傳播出去，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我也覺得未來中央通訊社的使命就像那位印度通訊社的代表所說的，他們發現自己的顧客變成自己的競爭者，他們也要開始有自己的平臺，但是有一件事情可以請你期許中央通訊社去做的，就是對於訊息、新聞求真的判別，如果中央通訊社能夠幫忙對每一則新聞把關，務求新聞的真，我想它對它其他的客戶就有價值，你同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以它要正確、領先、客觀。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。好，那接下來我們進入今天的主題，大家都關心總統成立了三個委員會，其中一個是國家氣候變遷委員會，很多人都關心這跟行政院的職責會不會有衝突，您覺得呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：氣候變遷是國家一個很高的戰略目標跟計畫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以行政院要負責解決問題的具體方法，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：同時在總統府成立的委員會當中，它沒有組織、沒有人事、沒有預算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是諮詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：它是諮詢、政策的討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以真正的執行是行政院要負責？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，而且還要經過政策、跟行政院還要對接政策。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，關於氣候變遷，大家認為是工業製造造成了大氣環境的變化，那受害者是誰呢？你覺得第一個受害的是誰？我告訴你，第一個受害的不是工業而是農業，陳部長，今年因為氣候變遷造成全臺灣的農損，包括屏東的芒果、蓮霧都是。有這麼多的農損，我來請教陳部長，農民很可憐啊！如果是農損欠收、不敷成本，我們農業部會做什麼？災害救助嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有一個天然災害救助的辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也會推廣農業保險嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是院長，如果我們風調雨順、國泰民安，農民也在擔心，因為豐收會怎麼樣？會敗市啊！農產品不耐久放，所以量多價崩，怎麼辦？農業部，你們是不是鼓勵做加工？"],["陳部長駿季：我們除了做加工以外，我們也會建置一個相關的滾動式倉儲、冷鏈倉儲的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，就是延長豐收農產品的保存嘛！但是院長，我要跟你講，農業部做了這麼多，可是農民會感謝嗎？因為鼓勵將農產品做初級加工，讓它可以保存久一點，是誰得到補貼？是加工業者，但是加工業者把檸檬做成果汁之後，可以放得比較久，不過農民也擔心你都是補助加工廠，他們在外面進口果汁，摻在這些本土的檸檬汁裡面，消費者分不出來，很可惜啦！所以我覺得院長，你可以再請農業部考慮一個，他們在做的是什麼？除了鼓勵加工之外就是冷鏈，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，那你們做了多少？目前農業部在冷鏈的推動做了哪些？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在在冷鏈的部分大概分三個區塊，一個區塊是區域冷鏈物流中心，它是結合附近的；第二個就是一個旗艦的部分，旗艦的部分主要是以外銷為導向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，說得好。院長，你聽喔，你看這張圖，其實農產地到集貨場，大概農會跟生產班是在前端，而後端有外銷的貿易商、有果菜公司，目前中間有大型通路跟盤商，盤商大概有自己私人的冷鏈，目前政府投資的大概可以讓大型的通路商做外銷，放在機場附近，部長是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是這樣的一個投資受益者是後端，農民的價格在前端，因為它還沒有經過冷鏈，不耐久存，它的價格還是抬不起來，所以這是目前我們的冷鏈投資在方向上要思考的一個點。同時，另外一件事情很像，在你旁邊的郭部長，我跟郭部長請教一下，我看到報紙說，未來好像今年開始，屋頂型光電的貢獻慢慢已經接近甚至超越地面型光電，是不是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：目前的資料是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以屋頂型光電有什麼好處呢？院長，屋頂型光電在人口密集區，它用的電馬上可以上調，它不用饋線，但是地面型的光電大部分是在鄉間，部長，是不是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以配合鄉間的光電，用量少的地區，這些發的電要怎麼辦？是不是要用儲能儲起來？"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要用儲能，光電要配合儲能才會產生韌性電網，調節供電的效果。但這裡面有個問題就是饋線，我們廣大鄉間的光電需要饋線放在儲能，儲能才能輸送到電網，是不是這樣子？好，那我們來看一下，部長，請你告訴院長，目前儲能設施的裝置容量是不是已經跟我們的光電裝置差不多了？"],["郭部長智輝：目前差不多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：差不多。但是大部分分布在哪裡？分布在光電集中的鄉間嗎？還是集中在工業比較集中的地帶？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是工業區。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。院長，這就是問題了，產電的在鄉間，儲能的放在哪裡？工業用電那裡。你現在看看為什麼會這樣子，因為經濟部的相關規定、產業園區的各種使用規範、科技園區的管制條例，光電的儲能，儲能要放在工業區，部長，是不是這樣子？"],["郭部長智輝：目前的規範是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：鄉間有沒有工業用地？"],["卓院長榮泰：少。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很少。郭部長來自於我們枋寮，枋寮唯一的工業區是在北旗尾、在東海那邊，超過那個地方有工業區嗎？有沒有地方可以放儲能？所以在這裡給院長跟部長一個建議，如果儲能結合了充電跟冷鏈，其實在我們鄉間最怕停電的有兩個，一個是加工的冷鏈，一個是養殖業的泵浦，不能停電，但是如果儲能放在鄉間有沒有幫助？院長，你覺得有沒有幫助？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個很好的思考跟檢討的方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，所以怎麼辦？解答在你右手邊的那一位──農業部。請部長告訴一下我們農業部，如果儲能業者可以同時提供冷鏈，農業部把它認定為農業設施，這個儲能就可以放在農業用地上、放在集貨場上，為什麼我們的冷鏈不會在前端呢？因為集貨場都是農會跟小農，都是生產班，沒有資本，他們也沒辦法投資，靠你的補助無法成事，如果儲能業者願意，因為可以取得用地，然後投資到我們生產班、集貨場那邊，這樣是不是可以解決兩邊的問題？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，我想這一部分我會跟農業部來討論，實際回屏東去看一下，如果有辦法的話，我們就依委員所提議的部分、這個方向來努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長，請你指示農業部研議把儲能結合冷鏈後可以納入農業設施，部長，可不可以？"],["陳部長駿季：我想絕對可以，我們現在有一部分已經開始這樣做了，特別是有一些像菇舍，上面的屋頂是太陽能板。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是屋頂型光電。"],["陳部長駿季：對，它直接會供應它本身的一個用電。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是要儲能。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以相對的，有關於農業設施，現在大概有將近兩千四百多公頃的屋頂型的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是屋頂型的。"],["陳部長駿季：我們在鄉村會結合儲能設備，然後直接供給我們的農業用電。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大部分的地面型光電……鄉下不是屋頂型啦！是地面型啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果能把這些地面型的光電放到集貨場，提供冷鏈也兼作儲能，對農民幫助很大，院長願不願意支持請兩位部長共同研議？好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我請兩位部長積極來看如何幫助讓這些產生出來的電力能夠存留下來，供做有需要時使用，至於農地的使用是不是有必要做一些放寬或怎麼樣，這個請農業部再來仔細研議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長可以考慮嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以，我們會來研議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：郭部長，你也可以鼓勵儲能業者在我們鄉間的這些冷鏈集貨場的農會生產班投資儲能設施，算他們便宜一點，因為對台電的儲能部分，你們就可以賺錢了，冷鏈是做服務的，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，可以。另外，請問院長知道嗎？我們每個地方都說歡迎台積電，但台積電要用電，要不要用水？"],["卓院長榮泰：要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要用水，所以半導體產業不只怕缺電，也怕缺水，但有沒有雨水我們沒辦法決定，這是由老天爺決定，是不是這樣？所以如果雨量少，家庭怕缺水、農民擔心沒有辦法灌溉、工廠怕停產，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你認為目前我們臺灣的降水、降雨，包括工業部門、家庭部門跟農業部門，哪個部門用的最多？"],["卓院長榮泰：工業跟農業啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我給你看數據，農業用水占七成，民生用水占兩成，而工業只占一成，所以當老天爺給我們這麼多水的時候，七成是農業使用，兩成家庭使用，一成是工業用，你認為要從哪裡把水儲存起來使用，其投資效益最高？郭部長，如果你是企業家，用水分配是這樣，你投資在哪裡最能達到成長效果？邊際效益最高？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在當然是從農業用水的部分來增加它的效益……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們是調度喔！要停耕、休耕，然後把水拿過來。"],["郭部長智輝：也不是這樣子，其實在農地用水的這部分，我們有在加強，我們台水、水利署大概有做這方面的研究。"],["鍾委員佳濱：水利署是全部水資源的調度。農業部陳部長，你看一看，你們農業用水有七成，其實是用了很多量，但多數不是農民用掉的，因為你們上游的集水設施不足，中游的輸水管路老舊，到最後最末端的使用效能，就是「噴鳥噴嘴」等節水設施要加強，農業部有沒有積極投資這一塊？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，農業部針對如何有效率用水，針對坡地部分，我們會擴大相關埤塘跟蓄水設施……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，你們提供很多嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：然後在平地的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：平地，灌排……"],["陳部長駿季：很多灌溉渠道滲漏的部分，我們也會去加強……"],["鍾委員佳濱：改善。"],["陳部長駿季：讓它的使用效率更高，然後針對一些用水比較高的部分，我們會導入一些比較……"],["鍾委員佳濱：節水設施？"],["陳部長駿季：節水設施，還有節水的栽培方式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：卓院長，我來自農業縣，你知道嗎？過去這三、四十年，日治時代留下來的灌排，其實農民已經不太用了，為什麼，你知道嗎？為什麼農民不等水利會的灌排？因為現在用電很方便，他自己鑿井，接上馬達，然後有電就可以抽水，但這樣做有一點可惜，因為地下水非常純淨、珍貴，地下水抽出來灌溉，有一半以上會蒸發，很可惜！還要吃電，吃電也是耗能，所以最快的方法就是灌溉設備的提升和修復，讓農民不用自己去鑿井、挖井，裝馬達用電抽水，然後又讓大部分的水都蒸發掉，你同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，很好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們要投資在哪裡呢？投資在我們的灌排和蓄水設施，這樣的方式可以透過交通設施，今天交通部不在，其實交通部的生活圈道路計畫提供了很多經費，如果這些道路經費可以結合我們的農田水利設施，就是在道路邊做排水道，而排水道邊就是農田，可以把農田的排水透過道路設施一起施作，讓農業部的資源專心用於灌溉，這樣就一舉兩得，院長，可不可以考慮這樣做？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員這個意見，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我要提醒你，真正我們的灌排做了多少？陳部長，這是不是你113年度有關農田水利設施改善所投資的錢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想整個投資不只這樣，因為還有一些疫後的特別預算投入，所以平均整個農田……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，疫後的特別預算，包括前瞻都已經快結束了，院長，我要提醒你，農業用這麼多水，而你投資這麼少的錢，很可惜啦！我再請你往下看，除了農業用水之外，我們的自來水，你認為全臺灣自來水普及率大概多少？部長要不要告訴院長，全臺灣自來水的普及率？"],["郭部長智輝：百分之六十幾。"],["鍾委員佳濱：92%，六十幾是屏東啦！你是屏東人，屏東是69%，全國平均94%，我們在自來水未普及地區投入多少經費，你知道嗎？我們投入這些啦，111年投入20億，越來越少，當然隨著普及率提高，我們需要的經費較少，但是最大的問題出在哪裡？為什麼我們自來水在屏東跟南投普及率還不夠？因為水公司的執行能量有限，錢要多編啦！院長，可不可以指示經濟部加強水公司在自來水普及計畫投入人力跟經費？可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：無自來水地區的供水，今年屏東應該還會有10億左右。"],["鍾委員佳濱：10億喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：今年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今年喔？沒有那麼多啦，因為水公司只做不到20億，水公司的能量，你給它那麼多錢，因為缺工做不來，人不夠，部長有辦法加強嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在不是錢的問題，而是人的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以部長、院長可不可以支持一下？讓經濟部加強無自來水地區普及的經費跟人力，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個在總經費160億當中，我們就逐年有做分配。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那希望多增加。"],["卓院長榮泰：像麟洛、長治等地區今年應該會改善。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，沒錯，麟洛跟長治，你講到重點了。最後我們看一下，其實你看看我們工業用水投資多少海淡廠？部長，你告訴院長，我們一個海淡廠要花多少錢？工業用的海水淡化廠，數十億起跳嘛！用10億做單位嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長，你看到沒有？工業用水的海淡廠絕對不虞匱乏，我們投資上百億，但是農業部門的灌排，水公司需要再加強自來水延管的普及。我的結論就兩個：請院長指示提高自來水延管工程預算及提高施作效能，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，已經照計畫在做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那也請提高農水設施的預算分配比例及修護，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝院長及兩位部長。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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裡面有一個問題,潰線。"},{"start":345.882,"end":369.736,"text":"我們廣大鄉間的光電需要匯線放在儲能,儲能才能輸送到電網,是不是這樣子?好,那我們來看一下。目前,部長,請你告訴院長,目前這些儲能設施的裝置容量,是不是已經跟我們的光電裝置差不多了?目前差不多。差不多,但是大部分分布在哪裡?分布在光電集中的鄉間嗎?還是集中在比較工業集中的地帶?"},{"start":370.37,"end":370.971,"text":"目前的規範是這樣。很少。"},{"start":395.476,"end":414.601,"text":"國務部長來自於我們仿寮,仿寮唯一的工業區在北幾北,在東海那裡。請問有地方可以放儲能?所以在這裡給院長跟部長一個建議,其實如果儲能結合了充電跟冷鏈,其實在我們鄉間最怕停電的兩個,"},{"start":416.113,"end":419.955,"text":"這是一個很好的思考跟檢討的方向很好,所以怎麼辦?解答在你右手邊那一位,農業部"},{"start":434.76,"end":459.669,"text":"請部長告訴一下我們農業部,如果說儲能業者可以同時提供冷鏈,那麼農業部把它認定為農業設施,這個儲能就會放在農業用地上,放在集貨廠上,因為我們為什麼冷鏈不會在前端呢?因為集貨廠都是農會跟小農,都是生產班,沒有資本,他們也沒辦法投資,靠你的補助沒錢輸。"},{"start":460.663,"end":483.176,"text":"如果除農業者願意因為可以取得用地投資到我們生產班集貨廠那邊,這樣是不是解決兩邊的問題?謝謝委員。我想這一部分我跟農業部來討論,到實際回屏東去看一下。如果說有辦法的話,我們就依這個委員所提議的部分這個方向來努力。"},{"start":483.598,"end":501.657,"text":"院長請你指示農業部是不是研議把儲能結合能量後可以納入農業設施部長可不可以我想絕對可以我們現在已經一部分已經開始這樣做了特別是有一些像孤設有沒有那上面屋頂試探那是屋頂光電對但是他直接會供應他本身的一個用地是要儲能對"},{"start":502.558,"end":530.239,"text":"所以相對的有關於農業設施現在大概有將近兩千多兩千四百多公頃的一個一個屋頂型的那是屋頂型的然後我們會結合在鄉村會結合儲能設備然後直接供給我們的農業用電大部分的地面型光電不是在鄉下不是屋頂型啦是地面型啦如果能把這些地面型的光電放到集貨廠提供冷鏈也兼做儲能對農民幫助很大院長願不願意支持請兩位部長共同言語好不好"},{"start":531.339,"end":557.905,"text":"我請兩位部長積極來看如何幫助這些產生出來的電力能夠存留下來,工作有需要使用,那農地的使用是不是有必要做一些放寬或是怎麼樣,這個請農業部再來質詢。部長可以考慮嗎?可以,我們會來研議。那郭部長你也可以鼓勵儲能業者去投資在我們鄉間的這些冷鏈的集貨廠的農會生產班的儲能設施,剩下削的,你對台電的儲能你就可以賺錢,冷鏈這做服務的可以嗎?"},{"start":562.108,"end":579.765,"text":"另外我們看到,請問院長你知道嗎?我們每個地方都說要歡迎台積電啊,但是台積電要用電,要不要用水?要。要用水。所以呢我們半導體的產業,我們怎樣?我們不只怕缺電,也要怕缺水。但是有沒有雨水,我們沒辦法決定啊。"},{"start":580.666,"end":607.142,"text":"所以如果雨量少,家庭怕缺水,農民擔心沒有辦法灌溉,工廠是不是怕停產,是不是這樣子?是。那你認為目前我們台灣的降水、降雨哪個部門,工業部門、家庭部門跟農業部門哪邊用最多?農業用水佔了七成,民生用水佔了兩成,其實工業只佔了一成。"},{"start":608.103,"end":627.351,"text":"所以如果說我們要提高,當提供要花這麼多水的時候,七成的農藥放棄,兩成的家庭要贏,一成是工藥。你要在哪裡把這個水蓋起來贏,你覺得哪個地方投資效益最高?部長,如果你是企業家,用水分配是這樣,你的投資在哪裡?最後會有達到那個成長的效果,邊際效益最高?"},{"start":627.901,"end":630.703,"text":"水利署是全部的水資源的調度,農業部陳部長"},{"start":649.485,"end":667.506,"text":"你們看一看,你們農業有七成,其實呢是很多的量,但是多數不是農民用掉的,因為你們上游的集水設施不足,你們中游的輸水的管路老舊,到最後你們最末端的使用效能,噴澆啦,噴水啦,結水設施要加強,農業部有沒有在積極投資這一塊?"},{"start":668.407,"end":668.707,"text":"主委委員長我來自農業縣"},{"start":697.028,"end":710.48,"text":"你知道嗎?過去這三、四十年日治時代留下來的慣牌,其實農民已經不太用了。為什麼嗎?你知道嗎?為什麼農民不可以去咱們水里回慣牌?因為現在電太方便了。他每次要水,他拆這個,他接摩托,有電就出來了。"},{"start":715.438,"end":716.098,"text":"是,很好。"},{"start":742.605,"end":764.38,"text":"好,所以我們看一看,所以投資在哪裡呢?投資在我們的灌牌,然後蓄水設施,這樣的方式,也就是透過交通設施。我們交通部今天不在,其實交通部生活圈道路計畫提供了很多的經費。如果這些經費在道路上,把它結合我們的農田水利的設施,它這是哪?道路邊都做白水嘛。"},{"start":765.16,"end":773.024,"text":"部長,院長可不可以考慮這樣做?但是我要提醒你,我們看一下,真正我們的灌牌做了多少?部長、陳部長,這是不是你113年度有關農田水利市改善所投資的錢?"},{"start":792.922,"end":818.153,"text":"我想整個投資不只這樣,因為我們還有一些異後的特別預算在投入。所以平均整個農、田、水...好,異後的特別預算,前瞻,包括前瞻都已經快結束了啦。院長我要提醒你,農業用水用這麼多水,你到處這麼多錢,很可笑的啦。我再請你看,往下看。除了農業用水之外,我們自來水,你認為全台灣自來水普及率大概多少?部長要不要告訴院長,全台灣自來水普及率?"},{"start":822.254,"end":837.746,"text":"90幾%?92啦!60幾是屏東啦!你是屏東人啦!屏東69%啦!全國平均94%啦!我們在自來水未普及地區我們投入多少金額你知道嗎?我們投入這些啦!111年投入20億越來越少!"},{"start":838.386,"end":859.81,"text":"當然隨著普及率提高,我們經費需要的是較少。但是最大的問題出在哪裡嗎?為什麼我們主要在屏東這個地方跟南島普及率還不夠?因為水公司的執行能量有限。您要改變啦。院長可不可以指示經濟部加強水公司在自來水普及的計畫的投入、人力跟經費可以嗎?"},{"start":860.79,"end":888.188,"text":"吳志萊水地區的供水今年屏東應該還會有10億左右,10億的左右。50億喔?今年啦,今年。今年喔?沒有啦,沒有那麼多啦,因為水供是只做不到20億啦。水供系的能量,他說你讓他那麼多錢做不來,欠工啦,人不夠,保證我都加薪不?我們現在不是錢的問題啦,而是人的問題。是,所以部長、院長支持一下,讓經濟部加強這方面吳志萊水地區的普及的經費跟人力好不好?"},{"start":889.406,"end":910.138,"text":"這個在總經費160億當中,我們就逐年有做分配啊。那希望多增加。林洛、長治等地區今年應該會實質的改善。是的,沒錯林洛跟長治你講的重點了。最後呢我要看一下齁,其實你看一看我們工業用水投資多少海淡廠。部長你告訴院長,我們一個海淡廠要花多少錢?海水淡化廠,工業用的。"},{"start":911.955,"end":935.043,"text":"數十億起跳嘛,用10億做單位嘛。院長你看到沒有,工業用水海灘廠這個絕對不予匱乏的我們投資上百億,但是農業部門的灌牌,水公司水的自來水的沿館的普及需要再加強,所以我的結論就兩個,請提高,院長指示提高自來水沿館工程預算及提高施作效能,可以嗎?好的,已經照計劃。"},{"start":946.618,"end":947.321,"text":"好,謝謝莊委員、謝謝卓院長。"}]}},{"id":"154423","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154423","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a1547a36ca3484316b5ed2c12d918673f79f1a10a31227339524212974bf4722aa1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"09:50:06 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10:06:00","影片長度":"00:15:54","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T09:50:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T10:06:00+08:00","duration":954,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":264,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（9時50分）謝謝主席，有請院長跟經濟部部長。"],["主席：請卓院長及部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：院長、部長早安。我想從民國42年開始，臺灣啟動了大規模的養豬事業，對於這個養豬事業，其實台糖發揮了很大的能量，因為在早期台糖的養豬事業其實是帶動整個臺灣民間豬場的最大標竿跟目標。其實以臺灣的養豬事業來說，台糖功不可沒，曾幾何時，台糖面臨到很大的困境，從2020台糖投入107億要蓋13座舊換新的養豬場，但是到目前為止，台糖還有3場沒有完成招標，這3場為何沒有完成招標？其實原因是在於土地徵收沒辦法順利進行。在這裡我要跟院長及部長做個探討，改建工程的進度大幅落後，甚至還有3座要再追加預算17億，有2間很大的股票上市公司，分別是山林水跟大同，他們承攬這13座養豬場，但這13座養豬場的改建顯然遇到很大的困難，為什麼會有很大的困難？部長你新上任，所以我在這裡提醒你，整個台糖養豬事業面臨到很大的瓶頸，這個瓶頸事實上有沒有人謀不臧？你持續去看很多的資料後，可能就會慢慢瞭解這些問題，為什麼花了107億，再追加17億，這13座養豬場我們希望是最新型的，然後可以節能減碳，可以帶動整個臺灣最好的養豬事業，現在面臨到這麼大的困境，這個該怎麼辦？","當然我們知道農業部長是農業權威，他看到台糖養豬事業面臨到的是育成率在於臺灣養豬業的平均育成率之下，這讓我們覺得很捨不得，這麼好的環境，這麼好的基礎，結果育成率卻這麼低，完全沒有競爭力。尤其是我們屏東的東海豐，這是一個標竿的養豬場，我們常常提供給很多國外團體來考察，結果他們到這個地方考察的時候，我們反而漏氣了，為什麼？因為東海豐沒有母豬，全部是養了三十幾天的仔豬送到這個豬場來。其實我們提供給國外養豬團隊來參考的一定是我們覺得最好的，結果反而讓其他這些國外團隊質疑我們的養成率怎麼會這麼低？怎麼會1隻母豬只生15隻豬仔？我想一般坊間的民間養豬場的1隻母豬都生超過20隻豬仔，所以我們希望院長跟部長重視台糖的養豬事業，相對地我們也知道台糖有很大的一片土地，可是這些土地因為疏於管理──為什麼疏於管理？因為人力不足，而台糖土地面積太大了，這些畜牧場其實被囤了很多的廢棄物，甚至很多是有毒廢棄物，今年5月時還有2個台糖農場被挖掘出很多的有毒廢棄物，我們希望院長跟部長能藉由一些科技化的管理，怎麼樣讓台糖這些廣泛的、比較大的農場能夠維持比較好的品質，也希望能藉助部長的管理效能，在這麼龐大土地的狀況之下，我們怎麼樣有效地去管理？謝謝，請部長回應。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，有關台糖的問題，就剛才委員所指教的這個部分，我們會專案下去查察。"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["郭部長智輝：到底是您剛才所指正的是人的問題，還是環境的問題，還是產業的問題，我們會針對問題來提出改善。台糖確實，您剛才講到的工程部分，因為它碰到從2020年開始的COVID-19到現在，特別是東海豐，東海豐位在屏東，比較鄉下，其實根本就找不到什麼施工的工人，我想在他們當初投標的時候並沒有這樣的環境，我聽這件事情可能是有一些大家彼此的爭議啦，就是說這個業者……"],["賴委員惠員：部長，因為在107年的時候我們透過這些標案要來改建養豬場，期程從108年的時候開始，後來疫情來了嘛，所以缺工、缺料的問題造成這13座養豬場沒有辦法去改建。","但我想台糖內部的管理失能其實不是只有豬的問題，連帶地，我跟你講，我要特別指出來的就是土地問題，台糖賤價出租產業、違法圖利廠商。你現在看到螢幕上的這個就是在柳營奇美醫院的旁邊有一個大概超過7,666坪的土地，一個月租金26萬，為什麼呢？這個是非常非常離譜的，本席在去年2月持續一直追這個案子的時候，台糖一直說這案子沒有問題，我想在這裡跟院長及部長做一個非常清楚的說明，在原始的契約裡頭只有租20年，寫得非常清楚，不得延約，其實它已經違背了原始契約的精神──只租20年不能延約，結果20年合約到期，所有的地上物並沒有追回來給台糖，甚至董事會讓它繼續承租這塊土地，會後我會把這些資料提供給部長跟院長，因為它是非常明顯的違規，現在這個地上物還存在的，然後還不是台糖的財產。","我一直覺得為什麼有這麼大膽的台糖同事，我前前後後跟他們開會超過5次以上，他們竟然有辦法在契約已經明文規定得這麼清楚的情況下，延續的、往後的20年居然敢再讓它續約。當然，這個新奇美公司不是許文龍的奇美公司，在這邊也要跟院長報告一下。一個民間的小型公司有辦法就是20年再加20年，然後這個地上物是一個價值超過2億的建物，竟然沒有在20年合約到期的時候把這個財產歸還給台糖，為什麼台糖敢這樣侵害國家的財產權呢？所以我在這裡要請院長跟部長，是不是1個月內提出報告？如果你不立即徹查的話，我是建議應該是要立即解約啦，因為這個違法的狀況太明顯、太明顯了，況且在今年3月我又去申請了它的謄本，這個謄本裡頭，這個建物還是屬於新奇美實業，所以它已經是明顯的違法。之後我都會把這些資料給部長跟院長，我想這是存在於我們整個北臺南的一個很大的笑話，大家不知道，尤其台糖的總公司又在臺南，這是不應該犯的一個錯，所以在這裡，也利用這個時間來跟部長、院長做一個探討。","我想台糖因為人才斷層導致經驗無法傳承，加上人事制度僵硬化，政府應思考怎樣活用人才，不讓員工只是等退休。我在這裡提出一份資料，這是經濟委員會6月26號的會議紀錄，台糖超過55歲以上至65歲屆齡退休的員工比例高達33.78%，遠高於台電、中油跟台水，我們覺得台糖員工安全下莊的這種心態是非常要不得的，它曾經是這麼風光的一個國營事業體。在這裡特別跟院長、部長提出這個案子，我覺得此案應該要立即解約，不然存在一個很大的問題，應該會有很多公務人員會有一些連帶的責任。","接著請國發會主委跟部長，特別要跟你們三位討論一下有關科技廊帶的中繼站，我建議放在大新營。整個科技廊帶從嘉義園區到南科園區中間缺乏串聯，我們知道南臺灣的科技廊帶，從屏東一直上來到嘉義，在嘉義跟南科之間的距離超過50公里，可是這一塊剛好是一個斷層，所以在這裡我要特別跟在座三位提一個建議，其實我們知道台積電可能後續還有好幾座的封測廠要投入，所有的封測廠都需要半導體的各種材料，有沒有機會把它擺在大新營？我知道大新營優勢非常多，為什麼？我那個地方最窮，不是只有農業，不是只有水果好吃而已。在這裡也要跟院長報告，我那邊有太多甲種工業用地，一直都沒有開發，我簡單地提兩個案子給院長、部長跟主委看，光是台紙的工業用地就超過50公頃，超過50公頃的台紙工業用地，其實我們都準備好了，還有就是我們有很多台糖的工業用地，它也存在的，所以變成就是說非常的方便，我們有交流道，我們有柳科工業區，我們的交通非常的便利，況且整個大新營是早期臺南縣的縣府所在地，我們那邊有非常優秀的人才，具有學歷的高科技人才願意回鄉裡來的時候，大新營也是一個非常好的地方。所以我一直在推薦我這個地方，真的是太好了，這個地方遠遠比最近剛剛有封測廠落腳的我的鄰居，我覺得我的條件更好，所以我希望院長，是不是可以在休會期的時候，我們啟動一個會勘呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。我們之前也到過沙崙，確實一個地方經過這樣有計畫的整體開發之後，未來的前景相當的可觀。現在就是串接整個大南部高屏地區的S廊帶的科技走廊，應該是一個我們未來發展的重點之一，尤其在臺南的方面，新營工業區、柳營還有開發中的七股，都是未來深具潛力的，這個部分國發會也一定會就各個地區不同的功能、領域，以及跟科技業的結合，去做各種不同的評估，經濟部站在領頭羊的位置，它一定會全力去促成這樣的評估跟未來的計畫。"],["賴委員惠員：是，主委，你對整個大新營也就是我們的北臺南有沒有一點瞭解？我相信你應該很瞭解，你之前就是一直都在南臺南。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我是去過幾次，那裡是一個環境還不錯的地方，也有一些工業在發展，是有比較大的空間，那我們會找國科會一起共同來研究一下，再跟委員回報。"],["賴委員惠員：是，我也想聽聽部長對我們這整個區域的建議，我覺得這個是一個非常有開發潛力的地點，我還是要邀請你們在休會期間到我的選區裡頭來辦一個會勘，你們會看到這個地方什麼都沒有，這個就是我最大的優勢。"],["郭部長智輝：臺南是我們非常重視的一個區塊，所以對於委員所指示的部分，我們在休會期間應該會去協助。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝部長，謝謝院長，謝謝主委，那我也期待下一次的考察會勘。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴委員，謝謝卓院長。","吳琪銘委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院以書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員吳琪銘書面質詢：","（有請經濟部郭部長智輝）","長福橋施工便道的進度狀況","部長，三峽祖師廟旁的長福橋改建工程，本席，於109年數度邀請水利署賴署長會勘現場，成功爭取到橋體工程2.6億的經費進行改建！相信長福橋一旦改建完成，除了能繼續帶來大量的觀光客與商機亦能讓長福橋成為三峽新興的打卡景點，也可以為三峽老街觀光帶來更大的週邊效益。而在今年2月已封閉舊橋拆除改建，第一段拆除工程也於5月中完成拆除，橋樑動工之後因為工期長達800多天，影響在地居民通行，更對往返的長輩造成困擾，臨時通行便橋將於這個月底31日開放，提供民眾通行使用。部長再麻煩緊盯進度，保障民眾最低限度的通行權利及安全，也兼顧橋梁的施工進度與品質。部長為了工程順利如期在115年完工，是否能全力配合協助？那目前與新北市政府溝通的狀況如何？","土城變電所","土城金城路上之前有一個被民眾所詬病的變電所，經過本席努力從106年努力爭取地下化後，現在所有電塔都已經拆除了，未來將會變成綠蔭都會區！其中變更回饋約0.6公頃做為公兒用地，現由台電公司繳納代金，由捷運局簡易綠美化，後續由新北交通局設置地下公共停車場時，一同開闢公園。","目前此空地由內部部都委會審查都市計畫變更案中，將採捷運開發方式與新北樹林線LG09站出入口共構使用，根據本席了解的進度，新北市政府需要在都市計畫變更發布實施後，才能跟台電公司協議價購取得土地，然後辦理招商規劃。","原先進度預計113年前辦理移交，請問部長目前進度為何？"],["主席：接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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這個財產歸還回到臺堂"},{"start":572.181,"end":584.715,"text":"為什麼臺壇敢這樣侵害國家的財產權?所以我在這裡要請部長跟院長是不是一個院內提出報告。如果你不立即徹查的話,"},{"start":587.321,"end":609.836,"text":"我是建議了應該是要立即的解約啦因為這個違法的狀況太明顯太明顯了況且我在那個今年的3月我又去申請了他的一個藤本這個藤本裡頭這一個建物還是新奇美實業所以他已經是明顯的一個違法所以"},{"start":611.112,"end":625.343,"text":"事後我都會把這些資料給部長跟院長。我想這個是存在於我們整個北台灣的一個很大的一個笑話。大家不知道尤其台堂的總公司又在台南,那這個是不應該換的一個錯。"},{"start":627.524,"end":649.437,"text":"所以在這裡也利用這個時間來跟那個部長跟院長做一個探討。我想臺壇的一個人才的一個斷層、經驗的一個傳承、人事的一個僵硬化,怎麼樣活用這個人才,不讓這個員工只是等退休。我在這裡頭提出了一份資料,就是說這個是經濟委員會在6月26日的一個會議記錄。"},{"start":653.379,"end":673.694,"text":"台湯超過55歲以上屆齡退休的員工高達33.78。這個是演高於台湯中游跟台水。這個讓我們覺得就是說,台湯的一個員工的安全下莊的這個心態,這個是非常要不得的。他曾經是一個這麼風光的一個國營事業體。"},{"start":677.156,"end":692.519,"text":"那在這裡特別就是說也是跟我們院長跟部長提出這個案子我覺得這個是應該要立即解約啊不然這個存在的一個很大的一個問題應該會有很多公務人員會有一些年代的一個責任"},{"start":693.598,"end":706.887,"text":"那接著那個請國發會那個主委跟部長特別要跟你們三位討論一下就是科技藍帶的一個中繼站我建議是在大新營這個科技"},{"start":711.155,"end":738.385,"text":"在整個嘉義園區跟南科園區的一個切劃的一個串聯我們知道就是說南台灣的一個科技藍帶從屏東一直直接上來到嘉義其實在嘉義跟新穎這一跟南科超越了就是這個距離是超過50公里可是這一塊剛好是一個斷層所以在這裡我要特別跟那個"},{"start":739.212,"end":739.232,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":755.04,"end":755.06,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":772.971,"end":795.052,"text":"我簡單提兩個案子給那個院長跟部長跟那個我們主委看。光是我的台子,台子的工業用地我就有超過50公頃。超過50公頃的台子工業用地其實我們都準備好了。還有就是我們有很多台糖的工業用地,它也存在了。所以變成就是說,"},{"start":796.035,"end":796.055,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":822.152,"end":822.172,"text":"﹚賴惠員"},{"start":840.879,"end":869.569,"text":"謝謝委員我們之前也到過沙崙確實一個地方經過這樣有計畫的整體開發之後未來的前景相當的可觀那現在就是在串接整個大南部高屏地區的S廊帶這個科技的走廊應該是一個我們未來發展的重點之一那尤其在台南的方便新營工業區柳營還有開發中的七股都是未來深具潛力的那這個部分國發會也一定會就各個"},{"start":870.711,"end":877.237,"text":"主委你是不是對整個大新營就是我們的北台南有沒有一點了解我相信你應該很了解你之前就是一直都是在南台南"},{"start":894.598,"end":909.271,"text":"我是去過幾次啦那那裡是一個環境還不錯的地方也有一些一些工業在發展是有比較大的空間那我們這個會找國科會一起我們共同來研究一下再跟委員回報"},{"start":909.872,"end":911.373,"text":"臺南是我們非常重視的一個區塊。"},{"start":944.315,"end":948.599,"text":"好謝謝謝謝賴委員謝謝卓院長吳啟明委員之質詢"}]}},{"id":"154422","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154422","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a154769583e59a4d0637d2c12d918673f79f1571e0513cca39fd5048316b8811dac4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"09:33:57 - 09:49:39","影片長度":"00:15:42","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T09:33:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T09:49:39+08:00","duration":942,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":195,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（9時34分）謝謝主席。請卓院長還有經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請卓院長還有郭部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：院長、部長好。我請問一下卓院長，針對SRF的發電，不知道院長知不知道？想請問一下，它到底是焚化廠還是發電廠？"],["卓院長榮泰：它是把廢棄物固化之後到一個新型態的焚化廠裡面，它可以做再一次的能源使用。"],["涂委員權吉：所以是兩者兼具嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["涂委員權吉：我請問一下，像我們是臺灣民主社會，我們不管是設立焚化廠還是發電廠，是不是在設立之前應該要跟我們鄉親充分地溝通，讓我們鄉親能夠瞭解政府到底要做的是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：一定是有用地的取得以及環境的影響，當然要跟社會、民眾有一定的共識，大家一同來接受、甚至來維護一個新興型態的設施。"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以也是希望說讓我們居民能夠瞭解政府要做的是焚化廠還是發電廠。我現在要跟院長這邊報告，我們桃園有三家SRF垃圾發電廠，一個台灣立方、一個可寧衛、一個立疆，這三家入駐我們桃科，後來民眾踢爆之後，才要求這三家召開說明會，廠商後來才召開，當然後來民眾才瞭解。據我們去瞭解之後，發現這三家其實早在107年的時候就有函詢桃園市政府經發局，針對這三家SRF垃圾發電廠入駐桃科的可行性，當時的經發局就很明確告知，他們是不符合土管規定，所以也告知它說桃科的入駐電廠是以汽電共生，而且以天然氣為主，所以燃燒事業廢棄物SRF這一部分是不符合我們土管入駐的要點。","也就是說針對這三家SRF廠，在109年4月1號經濟部能源署有發了再生能源發電設備的同意備案給台灣立方，在4月1號發；所以經發局發現之後，就在4月29號馬上公告明確的規範，就是汽電共生僅限天然氣，SRF不在這之列，所以也就是明確地告知經濟部，經發局認為入駐桃科與土管規定是不合的。針對這部分，院長跟部長知不知道這個事情？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部推薦那個時候是機關配合程序，不是作為入園必要的條件，經濟部發函桃園市政府是表達沒有參採的必要，所以收回當時對桃園市政府的政策表述，這個是經濟部對桃園市政府的回應。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我這邊也要問一下院長、部長，我們針對這三家SRF入駐觀音桃科，我想瞭解一下，這個決定權到底是經濟部說了算還是桃園市政府說了算？"],["郭部長智輝：桃園市政府。"],["涂委員權吉：桃園市政府嘛！好，那我們看一下這個時間軸，讓院長、部長瞭解一下，剛剛我講其實在107年的時候，三家就函詢經發局，經發局就明確告知它是不符合入園的規定；然後在108年的時候，當時的市長是鄭文燦市長，他就陸續核發了這三家廠商的土地建照，後來中央也陸續准許這三家，發給他們再生能源發電設備的同意備案。就像我剛剛講，後來這備案發出之後，經發局就緊張，怕說這個廠商是不是有走後門之虞，所以明確規範汽電共生僅限天然氣，SRF是排除在外。","後來經濟部、中央就針對這三家廠商在109年12月份開了一場專案的會議，也就是說，它也知道它不符合土管的規定，所以當時經濟部長王美花就下指導棋，要求當時的市長鄭文燦同意以專案的方式入園。當然鄭市長也知道經發局都是反對，而且它不符合土管的規定，所以就要求經濟部如果要讓這三家入園，請經濟部發推薦函，他才同意入園。後來很快經濟部就針對這三家廠商發了入園的推薦函，當然鄭市長也履行他的承諾，同意這三家廠商入園。後來民眾踢爆之後，然後要求廠商說明，結果這三家廠商開了說明會之後，民眾聽了反而更加恐慌，後來才發現它根本就不是什麼SRF電廠，根本就是垃圾焚化爐，藉由發電來入駐桃科。張善政市長上任之後，基於民意反彈的壓力，而且他在瞭解之後知道這三家不符合土管規定，是經濟部當時要求市府以專案的方式來進行，後來經濟部也礙於民意的壓力，而且當時正在選舉，所以剛剛部長也有講，經濟部後來撤回了這個推薦函，基於種種以上的原因，張善政市長從善如流撤銷了這三家廠商的入園許可。就像剛剛郭部長講的，你說這個權責單位在桃園市政府，就是說桃園市政府可以決定它的入園與否，但是沒有想到張市長在3月份撤銷它的入園許可，結果經濟部在6月份竟然駁回桃園市的行政處分，也就是同意這三家SRF廠繼續入駐桃科、入駐觀音。郭部長，你覺得那桃園市政府已經駁回，為什麼你們還要駁回桃園市政府的處分，同意這三家繼續興建入駐？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這件事情是這樣，桃園市政府向經濟部提訴願，我們由訴願委員會依法律專業決定，訴願委員會有11位委員，主要是由外部的法律專家學者所組成，包括專業的公法學者，依法做出一致的決定……"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，部長，重點就是……"],["郭部長智輝：也不是經濟部自己、經濟部部長或者是經濟部……"],["涂委員權吉：好，那我請問一下，經濟部駁回桃園市政府這個行政處分是基於什麼原因、基於什麼理由？"],["郭部長智輝：我們沒有處分。"],["涂委員權吉：不是，你說這三家廠商針對張善政市長、桃園市政府撤銷入園許可，你前面有說桃園市政府是權責單位，可以決定他們的入園與否，結果桃園市政府駁回，也就是撤銷這三家的入園，可是經濟部居然還駁回桃園市政府的撤銷入園許可。你剛剛說桃園市政府可以決定，桃園市政府決定之後，你們經濟部又召開會議同意這三家廠商的訴願，繼續讓他們入駐，你說主管單位可以決定，那你們又駁回，到底是經濟部決定還是桃園市政府決定？"],["郭部長智輝：所以才去訴願啊！"],["涂委員權吉：所以你們同意他們的訴願啊！"],["郭部長智輝：訴願委員會做的決定啊！"],["涂委員權吉：訴願駁回桃園市政府的理由是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上，他們來訴願說這是經濟部下條子給桃園的，但事實上不是這個樣子……"],["涂委員權吉：部長，我跟你講，如果你覺得不對，你可以反駁。其實我有看過當初的會議紀錄，有明確的告知，當初鄭文燦市長知道經發局反對，所以他說如果要同意這三家入園，要經濟部王美花部長發三家推薦函才准許他們入園，後來民眾反彈之後，經濟部就說這個推薦函沒有法律效力，所以撤回。後來桃園市政府基於推薦函當初是由經濟部推薦，既然經濟部撤銷推薦函，表示當初推薦入園的理由也不復存在，而且我重申，他們從頭到尾就不符合土管要點，是你們用專案的方式，既然不符合土管要點，那你們當初推薦的理由、自己的推薦函已經撤銷，而且民意那麼反彈，所以張善政市長撤銷，結果撤銷之後，你們說撤銷推薦函只是你們的一個程序，因為推薦函沒有法律效力，而入園的必要條件是要再生能源發電設備許可，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想桃園市政府可以決定這三家業者有什麼樣的條件允許他們進來。"],["涂委員權吉：所以他現在不同意啊！我剛剛一直有跟你講，他們不符合土管要點啊！那是後來你們推薦……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，桃園市政府並沒有不同意，只是那個辦法他們現在還在討論……"],["涂委員權吉：部長，我再跟你講，我剛剛有講，我有看過公文，你們說推薦函非必要條件，主要條件是再生能源發電設備許可……"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們現在與桃園市政府正在談，看怎麼樣的辦法可以讓他們進來，有什麼樣的規定，讓他們不是做垃圾焚燒……"],["涂委員權吉：我在這邊也提醒部長，我剛剛有講，桃園市政府經發局從頭到尾都說他們不符合土管要點，後來你們經濟部在109年4月1號發給台灣立方再生能源發電設備許可……"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員，那不是主管……"],["涂委員權吉：後來你們說這個是必要條件，但是109年4月29號當經發局發現之後……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["涂委員權吉：馬上公告這個許可函根本不符合桃科的入園、入駐規定，所以也就是打臉經濟部你們這個許可根本對桃科是無效的，結果你們把它當作入園的必要條件，我認為連這個必要條件應該也不復存在，基本上這三家SRF廠的入駐根本就沒有任何原因理由，完全不符合規定，經發局也都已經發函，基本上連這個許可函也是打臉經濟部。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在桃園市政府要求我們給它一個……什麼叫做入園許可，我們現在正在協商相關辦法，如果按照過去的說法，桃園市政府當然不同意這三個廠商進來，但我們現在是朝著如何能夠讓這件事情順利完成，哪一些規範是桃園市政府跟桃園市民所concern的事情，我們把這些定義清楚，讓這些業者還是可以持續運作，只是不像大家所擔心的，它可能是一個焚化爐，它不是一個……"],["涂委員權吉：好，感謝院長、感謝部長，我聽部長這樣講，其實部長也是站在鄉親這邊。我今天也要提醒部長，當你們說推薦函沒有法律效力，可是必要條件的這個許可也不符合桃科的入園規定，你們的必要條件基本上跟桃科入園規定是相牴觸的，所以這個必要條件根本不存在，我希望經濟部撤銷這個再生能源發電設備的許可，因為你們的許可根本跟入駐桃科的土管規定相牴觸。希望可以救救觀音人、救救桃園人，民意既然這麼地反彈，這件事情在地方，不管是張善政市長，還是本席以及當地的議員，甚至新屋、觀音31個里長都已經連署，他們希望經濟部能夠撤銷這個許可，把這個必要條件消失，讓我們觀音能夠有一個更好的生活環境，因為他們有講，他們現在要的是健康，不要回饋金。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在就是在討論這些入園的辦法和規範，讓大家同意，包括桃園市政府也同意朝這個方向大家一起來努力，事實上那三家廠商當中已經有兩家已經蓋好了，他們也投資了很多錢，而且這是國際的廠商進來，和我們友好的國家都有在關注這個問題……"],["涂委員權吉：對，但是這點……"],["郭部長智輝：我們也希望國際大廠願意到桃園來投資，這個是非常重要的，我們對國際大廠的處理如果稍微不慎，可能會影響後面更大的投資，所以這一點也請委員能夠瞭解。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我也跟部長講，我們也希望所有都要按照制度來，我們並不是反商。我剛剛有說了這個時間軸，部長跟院長你們要聽一下，你們當初核發這三家廠商的土地建照時根本都沒有同意他們入園耶！所以他們是在還沒有同意他們入園就去興建，我不知道是誰給他們的承諾，為什麼還沒有同意入園就可以先蓋？"],["郭部長智輝：這不是我們經濟部同意的啊！這個是桃園市政府同意的。"],["涂委員權吉：可是當初的市長是鄭文燦市長喔！"],["郭部長智輝：我想民主制度就這個樣子……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我希望院長、部長請你們正視這個問題，因為蔡英文前總統也有講，當政府聽不到人民的聲音，人民唯有走上街頭、發出怒吼。我相信民主進步黨一直以來都是走街頭運動，只要政府所做的違反民意，我相信民進黨政府也是鼓勵民眾走上街頭，所以在這邊希望部長跟院長能夠幫忙。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，部長所回答的您應該清楚，他非常積極地聽各地的聲音，也積極在跟地方政府協調，我們繼續努力。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我們也希望能幫鄉親解決這個問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員、謝謝院長跟部長。","沈發惠委員及徐富癸委員之質詢均以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員沈發惠書面質詢：","賴總統日前出席會計師公會活動指出：新政府一定是以打拚經濟為優先，政府會不斷改善投資環境，解決土地、水電、人才等，並重視法令鬆綁，讓產業有更寬闊的發展空間。總統繼而提及施政方向，首要便指出「前瞻未來、智慧永續」，隨著全面智慧化的時代來臨，人工智慧（AI）將主導未來食衣住行各種產業，台灣務必要做好充分的準備，才能在全球AI產業發展競逐時搶占優勢。","針對AI產業的發展，未來卓院長及內閣團隊已逐步擬訂計畫，包括國發會已將充裕AI人才列為重點政策，國發基金也將匡列百億經費加強投資AI新創，對此本席表達肯定，但也必須提醒行政院，有關AI發展的法制化，與資金、技術、人才同等重要，不僅要推出靈活優遇的政策，也必須有良好的法制環境，才能促進我國AI科技產業鏈不斷成長、茁壯。","爰此，本席提出以下兩項建議，請行政院及相關部會積極研議：一、政府應建立AI法制優化溝通平台，請部會先行盤點相關法規，並邀集產官學研針對AI發展之法制條件及環境討論，或定期提供建言；二、經由上述平台及產業溝通博採眾議，積極評估「人工智慧科技產業發展條例」專法立法之可行性。","除了高科技產業在世界上舉足輕重，推廣在地美食也是另一種讓世界看見台灣、愛上台灣的方式，為此經濟部已積極研擬「餐飲繁星」計畫，預計2028年將台灣米其林餐廳衝刺至500顆星，本席肯定相關政策推動有助於餐飲業品質提升，讓更多人認識台灣美食，但也要提醒眾多台灣中小型餐飲及平民美食有時亦若沙漠中的珍珠，需要更多的推廣及發掘，猶如輝達黃仁勳執行長來台亦不忘前往夜市「愛店」品嘗，也為這些店家帶來人潮。爰此，本席建請經濟部，未來在推動本案時宜有配套計畫及預算，例如結合各縣市活動推出「台版米其林」或「夜市米其林」認證，藉以發掘更多台灣美食，讓這些努力的店家也有機會為「摘星」、登上世界舞台做足準備！"],["委員徐富癸書面質詢：","壹、電力","˙核三廠一號機及二號機之停止運轉日期分別為113年7月27日及114年5月17日，核三廠一號機將於本月退役，預估屆時將出現約3.1%電力缺口，核三廠一號機及未來二號機退役所產生之電力缺口預計如何補足？","˙核電廠退役後，過去針對周邊居民所提供之回饋金或補助金將有何變動？數額是否減少？將維持多少年限？","˙小琉球年登島人次達百萬，近年因為國旅復甦，6月15日晚間因假日人潮電力瞬間負載突升，造成停電，暑假觀光旺季即將到來，台電如何確保小琉球用電無虞，是否有相關電力增加計畫？","˙由於小琉球地處偏遠，若發生停電，台電如何進行電力搶修計畫？預估能於多久時間內回覆電力？","˙恆春近日也因觀光人潮湧入、颱風及動物觸電產生多次停電事故，台電如何強化恆春電力供給以及電網韌性，目前是否有相關計畫？","˙以上所述問題，請經濟部及台電於一個月內提供詳盡書面計畫或答覆。"],["主席：下一位請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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也同意朝這個方向大家來努力因為那個三家廠商事實上已經有兩家已經都蓋好了他們也投資很多的錢而且這個是國際的這個廠商進來這一部分包括我們友好的這個國家都有在關注這個問題"},{"start":842.132,"end":858.528,"text":"我們也希望在這個國際的大廠的這個願意到桃園來投資啊這個是一個非常重要的我在想我們對這個國際大廠的處理如果稍微不慎可能會影響後面的這個更大的這個投資所以這一點也請委員會了解"},{"start":860.129,"end":871.586,"text":"我們也是希望所有的都要按照制度來所以我們也並不是反傷所以我剛剛有說這個時間軸所以部長跟院長你們要聽一下"},{"start":873.493,"end":875.175,"text":"可是當時的市長是鄭文燦市長喔?"},{"start":902.688,"end":920.603,"text":"所以我希望院長部長請你們正視這個問題因為我說我們蔡英文總統也有講當政府聽不到人民的聲音人民唯有走上街頭發出怒吼我相信我們民主進步黨一直以來都是走街頭運動"},{"start":921.724,"end":932.474,"text":"只要政府所做的是違反民意我相信我們的政府我們民進黨政府也是鼓勵民眾手上接頭所以在這邊希望部長跟院長能夠幫忙"}]}},{"id":"154421","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154421","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a15477a2ed545a5ec4b4a2c12d918673f79f1571e0513cca39fd5b36af2056dcf8b7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:17:50 - 09:33:50","影片長度":"00:16:00","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T09:17:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T09:33:50+08:00","duration":960,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":142,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時18分）謝謝主席，各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請卓院長跟農業部陳部長。"],["主席：卓院長還有陳部長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：院長、部長早安。今天是我們經濟委員會的質詢，還是先跟院長、部長講辛苦了，最近質詢很多，也跟你們報告，最近國會改革已經三讀通過，行政院的覆議案在立法院大家的投票之下，覆議案也沒有通過，所以國會改革五法已經正式上路，最重要以及民眾注意關心的就是國會聽證權跟調查權，這也是本席非常在意的。","在過去我的選舉當中，本席是會計師，所以對很多民眾關心的一些議案非常在意，本席今天就要繼續來問。其實本席在3月的時候就有跟當時的代理部長陳部長討論過超思雞蛋的問題，超思這家公司大家知道資本額50萬，過去在112年的時候進口了八千多萬顆的巴西蛋，結果後來有五千多萬顆等著要報廢，那最近也報廢了嘛，對嗎？部長。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員智倫：總共花了人民大概十億的納稅錢嗎？還是多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：大概十億多一點。"],["張委員智倫：對，所以我的數學還不錯，花了十億的納稅錢，想不到我們在追查的時候，當時3月我在追查超思雞蛋的時候，發現超思不只在112年有進口八千多萬顆的巴西雞蛋，在111年也進口將近兩千五百萬顆的雞蛋，結果最近在很多立法院同仁的努力追緝之下，發現超思還有一個前身叫做亮采，進口了五百多萬顆雞蛋，所以我今天想要針對部長，也跟院長報告一下超思居然還有前傳。想要先請問一下部長，有一家公司叫做亮采，它居然有採購日本的雞蛋將近五百多萬顆，請問一下部長對於亮采這家公司有沒有做KYC的瞭解？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，亮采的五百多萬顆是在3月跟4月之間用合約的方式去購買的，後續4月以後的雞蛋是由亮采公司來進口，有一段時間；進口了以後，後續我們在相關經費提供的時候，是由超思它用委任的關係，由超思來領款。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長，所以我就是要跟部長、院長報告，我們可以看到這家亮采公司的資本額只有一百萬，然後我們去查一下它的負責人，它的負責人有用一家投資公司去投資，投資這家亮采生物科技的這家公司叫做辰澤企業有限公司，它的負責人姓王，我們去查了之後發現它背後是一家生技公司，做醫美的。請問一家做醫美的公司來進口日本雞蛋，部長、院長覺得合理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：它如果合法地去申請，公司裡面有它可以營業的營業項目在裡面，那應該是一個公司法人的結構，不是它個人的問題。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝院長的回答，那部長你知道過去這個亮采公司有進口過日本雞蛋的經驗嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，過去的雞蛋大概都是由我們國內供應，在110年開始才有比較明顯的一個……因為疫情的關係、因為天候的關係而造成缺蛋，才有從包括美國、澳洲跟日本來進口……"],["張委員智倫：部長，我問你的就是亮采從日本進口的部分。我跟部長跟院長報告，其實亮采過去在111年前是沒有進口過日本蛋的經驗，所以這才是讓人民覺得很納悶的，為什麼一家一百萬資本額的公司可以進日本的雞蛋？本席還要請問一下一個大家最重視的問題，那時候亮采在進口雞蛋的時候，3、4月有進口一批，然後到最後在111年的8月也有進口一批，可是進口完了以後居然是超思付錢給它，它們兩個關係是什麼？為什麼它要幫它付這個錢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，相關這些亮采跟超思之間的商業關係，因為我們在行政調查的時候是有發現到一些疑慮必須澄清的，所以我們已經移送給檢調單位去查處。"],["張委員智倫：好，的確部長這個回答，其實本席已經有收到相關的消息，可是也要問一下農業部的一些官員，他們有說其實超思跟亮采中間有一個委託的委託書還是一個讓渡書，請問有這樣的事情嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是他們在付款的時候，有相關的一些委任的書狀在那邊，所以我們付款是針對委任的部分，然後開發票……誰開發票我們付給誰，但是後面的一些疑慮，我們已經請檢調單位在查清了。"],["張委員智倫：好，所以這就是本席要跟院長、部長講的，一家過去沒有進口日本蛋經驗的超思公司，委託一個過去沒有進口日本蛋的亮采公司，然後它們兩個中間還有錯綜複雜的關係，不管是畜產會過去一直以來跟農業部的溝通跟交涉都非常地困難，導致讓渡書的部分我相信也是很晚才提供給農業部看到。","我想要請教一下，亮采的部分其實當時是有跟畜產會簽約，所以它是用一個委託的方式，它除了進口日本雞蛋以外，它可以收取8%的手續費，那8%的手續費，其實它才收到兩百……它進口的雞蛋大概是五百多萬顆，總共的金額是三千七百多萬，可是它能收取8%手續費的時候，它只能收取兩百多萬的手續費，可是後來換到超思它在進口日本蛋的時候卻變成不是委託商的身分，它是用買賣斷的部分，結果後來政府的畜產會要求農業部做一個緊急的補貼，本來核定是1億7，最後實質補貼了八千九百多萬，我用計算機算了一下，它這個實支的差額補貼將近高達50%。我想要請教部長的是，有簽合約的只補貼手續費8%，即有簽合約的亮采補貼8%；沒有簽合約的超思，畜產會要求農業部補貼的實支差額將近達50%，請問這樣子合理嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，這之間可能有一些誤解，用合約的方式，照著合約走是8%的服務費；用買斷的方式，就是它負責從日本進口蛋，包括內陸的運費、包括裡面的關稅跟運輸費用，最後我們給它的就是已經到指定地點的一個價錢。所以不是直接用當地的價錢減掉我們付款的價錢，我想之間的資訊有點誤差。"],["張委員智倫：好，所以第一個，謝謝部長的解釋，我相信院長在旁邊聽，應該是覺得非常不能接受啦！我再請教一下，到最後畜產會有辦理111年進口雞蛋的查核報告，裡面特別提出，有很多委員也提出，針對雞蛋採購的部分，因為是緊急採購，所以可以不用採購法的條文，意思就是可以不用去三方比價。可是針對冷鏈倉儲租金跟運費的部分，這邊也有提出當時沒有依照採購法是有疏失的，有其他委員也說，既然超思進口日本蛋的時候都有疏失，那超思進口巴西蛋的時候，相關的冷鏈倉儲租金跟運費，你們已經準備好要收回50%的費用了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明一下，在111年度的時候，我們是用例行的產銷調節計畫先給它，先有一個計畫在那邊，它沒有依照採購法的部分，依政府的規定要在50%以下，這個部分我們已經追繳，他們也繳回來了。至於112年的部分，我們是後面才提供一個補助，所以在審核計畫的時候，就已經把相關不符合政府採購法的部分都已經扣掉了，因此沒有所謂112年再追繳的問題。"],["張委員智倫：所以112年不會追繳？"],["陳部長駿季：不會，因為是我們後面才核定的。"],["張委員智倫：倉儲租金跟運費的部分？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們後面核定的時候就有去檢視，不符合政府採構法的部分，我們的補助一定是50%以下。"],["張委員智倫：好。最後，我要跟院長及部長講，我們有去算過，亮采在進口日本蛋的時候，一顆大概是六塊多，快7塊；可是超思在進日本蛋的時候，一顆基本上是7塊以上，所以顧名思義，政府、畜產會採購的金額是越來越高，跟大家所想的不一樣。而且最重要的是，我們有去稍微算了一下，超思採購日本蛋，一顆將近10塊錢，我們有去查了日本當地的零售價，一顆才四點多塊錢，中間將近有6塊錢的價差。今天國會改革五法，是不是請院長跟部長回答一下，這樣到底有沒有圖利廠商的嫌疑？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，無論超思跟政府、亮采跟政府，或是超思跟亮采之間，一切的行為必須合法，而且依照合約來走，否則現在我們已經移送檢調單位在進行調查。這個事件讓我們引以為鑑，未來在從事任何……或許也包括這種緊急需要的情況底下，我們還是要慎選合作的對象，看看它是不是能夠如實地履行合約、有沒有這個能力，而且我們對於它是不是將合約又轉嫁出去的行為要做適當的限制，才能保障我們跟它之間直接合約關係的權利義務關係，我想這個給我們很大的啟示跟未來的學習。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝院長，每次質詢院長的時候，發現院長是一位非常nice的人。其實就是要跟部長跟院長講，超思雞蛋案花了人民很多的納稅錢，也花了很多立法委員去查核的時間。我們長期以來，因為農業部不知道是不是跟畜產會在溝通上有一些問題，所以很多時候我們立法委員去調資料都窒礙難行。因此我要拜託，我重新再講一次，就是超思在過去購買巴西蛋的時候，買了八千多萬顆，結果裡面有五千多萬顆是沒辦法用的，浪費人民的納稅錢將近10億，最近很多委員也在追，現在剩下來的這些雞蛋到底能不能食用，這也是一個問號。結果大家往前去追的時候，才發現111年超思還有去買日本雞蛋，它當時還是用買賣斷的情形，而112年它又變成貿易商，不僅可以收8%的手續費，還補貼巴西蛋非常多的金額，結果最後還追到超思還有一個前身，就是亮采，結果它在購買的時候，它相關的內容跟購買方式也讓大家沒有辦法接受，就是它根本沒有進口日本蛋的實績，所以我覺得這些種種……我希望超思跟巴西蛋、跟超思前傳（就是我們的日本蛋）能趕快落幕，不要花人民那麼多的納稅錢，又花很多委員質詢的時間，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經移送檢調，相信檢調單位應該很快就會去釐清。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。接下來還剩一點時間，我們請經濟部郭部長，謝謝。"],["主席：郭部長請備詢。"],["張委員智倫：部長好。因為時間的關係，我第一次有機會跟你見面，想不到是在質詢臺上，我也是要跟你說：辛苦了！這個部長非常不容易做。其實我觀察部長一段時間了，部長從一開始說核能是大家可以討論的，如果民意、大家可以做一個統整的意見，其實你不排斥核電；可是後來我相信大家都有看到新聞，在你參加過幾次的餐會以後，大概有些震撼教育，所以你現在想法變了、改口了。我請教一下郭部長，你一開始應該是非常有風骨，想要好好來帶領臺灣的經濟，結果現在這個想法180度轉變，我想要請郭部長講一下你的心路歷程，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們的電力政策應該是沒有改變，至於核能能不能夠討論，我想應該是可以討論的議題。未來核三要不要延役，這個問題我們尊重大院的決定，經濟部是執行單位，只要在法的框架之下，我們必須要依法行事，所以我想這個立法院能夠決定，就是我們做所有事情的依歸。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。院長，部長這樣講，您的看法怎麼樣？如果大院認為核電要延役，您的看法是不是跟郭部長一樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我剛剛也表示過，現在依照核管法，時間已經過了5年的時間了，但是如果進行修法，修法會修成什麼狀況、條文怎麼樣，我們現在也不能夠預測。修法之後行政院是依法行政，但是我們也希望大家在討論的時候，關於核安的問題、核廢料的處理以及如何取得社會的共識，大家都能夠很理性地來討論。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯。時間的關係，我最後請教一下部長，因為大家都非常關心核安，可是也很怕臺灣跳電跟缺電，尤其我上次在總質詢的時候有詢問過，請問今年還會不會漲電價？請教部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今年4月已經漲過11%。"],["張委員智倫：對，下半年還會不會漲電價？當然4月……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在電價審議委員會每年兩次的調整時間是固定的，但是我想……"],["張委員智倫：我想要請教院長跟部長的想法，你們支不支持下半年還漲電價？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會以民生的需求、物價的穩定，甚至能夠提供產業更多的保障……"],["張委員智倫：是不是也請部長回答？部長是很有想法的人，部長你覺得下半年有沒有需要漲電價？"],["郭部長智輝：電價不是我經濟部決定的，電價是由審議委員會做決定的，審議會裡面有學者、專家、民間的代表，由他們決定……"],["張委員智倫：好，我還是希望能苦民所苦，因為上半年已經漲過了，而且最近又是用電尖峰時段，是夏季用電時段，大家、民眾苦不堪言，物價都一直在漲，所以下半年拜託院長跟部長可以苦民所苦，可以凍漲電價，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張委員，謝謝卓院長。","接下來我們請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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SPEAKER_02","start":960.60659375,"end":960.9778437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.523,"end":19.278,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們是不是有請卓院長跟我們的陳部長農業部陳部長卓院長還有陳部長請備詢"},{"start":33.241,"end":48.389,"text":"院長、部長早安。今天是我們經濟委員會的質詢。還是先跟院長跟部長講,辛苦了。最近質詢很多。也跟你們報告,就是說最近國會改革已經三讀通過。"},{"start":51.05,"end":51.07,"text":"﹚張智倫﹚"},{"start":76.821,"end":99.467,"text":"那本席所以今天就要繼續來問其實本席在3月的時候就有跟當時的代理部長陳部長討論過超思雞蛋的問題這超思這家公司大家知道資本額50萬過去在112年的時候進口了8000多萬顆的巴西蛋結果後來有說5000多萬顆就是因為等著要報廢那最近也報廢了嘛對嗎部長是"},{"start":100.467,"end":118.417,"text":"那總共花了人民大概10億的納稅錢嗎?還是多少錢?大概10億多一點。對,所以我的數學還不錯,花了10億的納稅錢。那想不到我們在追查的時候,當時我在3月的時候追查超市雞蛋的時候,發現不只在超市在112年有進口巴西8000多萬克的雞蛋,"},{"start":118.977,"end":147.471,"text":"在111年的時候超司也將近進口了2500萬顆的雞蛋結果最近在很多立法院同仁的努力追緝之下結果發現結果現在超司他還有一個前身叫做亮采進口了500多萬顆的雞蛋所以我想要今天針對部長也跟院長報告一下超司居然還有錢賺那想要先請問一下這個部長這個有一家公司叫做亮采"},{"start":148.371,"end":158.751,"text":"他居然有採購日本的雞蛋將近500多萬顆。請問一下部長對於量產這家公司有沒有做KYC的了解?"},{"start":159.911,"end":183.349,"text":"我跟委員說明齁,亮彩的500多萬顆是在3月跟4月之間用合約的方式去購買的。那後續4月以後的一個雞蛋是由亮彩公司來進口,有一段時間。那進口了以後,後續在相關的那個經費,我們經費提供的時候是由超司,他用委任的關係由超司來領款。"},{"start":184.158,"end":188.63,"text":"好,謝謝部長。所以我就是要跟部長跟院長報告。我們可以看到我們的這家"},{"start":190.014,"end":190.034,"text":"議員﹚張智倫"},{"start":219.643,"end":237.092,"text":"那如果合法的去申請公司上裡面有他可以營業的營業項目在裡面那應該這是一個公司法人的結構不是他個人的問題好謝謝院長的回答那部長你知道過去這個亮彩公司他有進口過日本雞蛋的經驗嗎?"},{"start":238.291,"end":261.779,"text":"我跟委員說明過去的雞蛋大概都是由我們國內供應那在111年開始才有比較明顯的一個因為疫情的關係因為天后的關係造成缺點才有從包括那個美國澳洲跟日本來進口部長我問你的就是日本這個量產進口那請問一下我跟這個部長跟院長報告其實量產過去他在111年"},{"start":263.539,"end":263.559,"text":"﹚張智倫"},{"start":283.266,"end":288.809,"text":"我跟委員說明就是相關的這些亮彩跟超資之間的商業的關係因為我們在行政調查的時候是有發現到一些餘地必須澄清的所以我們已經移送給檢調單位去查處了"},{"start":307.956,"end":327.036,"text":"的確部長這個回答其實我本期已經有收到相關的消息那可是也要我問一下農業部的一些就是一些官員他們也說其實超市跟量產他們中間是有一個這個委託的委託書還是一個讓渡書吧請問有這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":327.834,"end":343.489,"text":"對就是他們在付款的時候有相關的一些委任的一個書狀在那邊所以我們付款是針對委任的部分然後開發票去提誰開發票我們付給誰但是後面的一些疑慮我們已經請檢調單位再查清了"},{"start":344.116,"end":367.655,"text":"所以這就是本席要跟院長跟部長講的一家過去沒有日本進口蛋經驗的超市公司委託一個過去沒有進口日本蛋的一個量產公司然後他們兩個中間還有錯綜複雜的關係那不管是續產會過去一直以來跟農業部的交通跟交涉都非常的困難導致這個量度書的部分我相信也是很晚才提供給農業會來看到"},{"start":369.156,"end":382.582,"text":"我想請教一下亮彩的部分其實當時是有跟這個續產會簽約所以他是用一個委託的方式他可以收取除了進口日本雞蛋以外他可以收取8%的手續費"},{"start":384.042,"end":384.062,"text":"﹚張智倫﹚"},{"start":405.768,"end":428.403,"text":"政府的續產會要求農業部做一個緊急的補貼補貼的本來核定是1億7最後實質補貼了8900多萬那我算一下齁我用計算機算了一下齁他這個實質的差額補貼將近高達50%那我想要請教部長的就是說有簽合約的只補貼手續費8%沒有簽合約的量產"},{"start":431.986,"end":438.657,"text":"有簽合約的量財補貼8%沒有簽合約的超市補貼緊急去產會要求農業部補貼的實質差額將近達50%請問這樣子合理嗎?"},{"start":443.346,"end":468.874,"text":"我跟委員說明這個之間可能有些誤解用合約的方式是照著合約走是8%的服務費那用買斷的方式就是說他負責從日本進口但包括內陸的運費包括裡面的關稅跟他運輸的費用那最後我們給他的就是已經到指定地點的時候的一個付錢所以不是直接用他當地的一個價錢減掉我們付款的價錢這個我想之間的資訊有點誤差"},{"start":471.36,"end":492.007,"text":"好,所以我要跟這個,所以第一個啊,我先謝謝部長的解釋啦,我相信院長在旁邊聽的應該是覺得非常不能接受啦。那我再請教一下,所以到最後,這個我們續產會有辦理這個111年進口雞蛋的一個查核報告,裡面特別有很多委員也提出了,特別提出了"},{"start":492.628,"end":515.901,"text":"就針對雞蛋採購的部分是因為緊急採購可以不用採購法的一個條文意思就是說可以不用去三方比價可是針對這個冷鏈倉儲的部分租金跟運費的部分這邊也有提出來說當時是沒有依照採購法是有疏失的那我們有其他委員也說既然超市進口日本蛋的時候"},{"start":516.781,"end":543.218,"text":"都有疏失那超失進口巴西蛋的時候相關的這個冷鏈倉儲租金跟運費你們已經準備好要收回50%的費用了嗎?跟委員說明一下就是在110年度的時候我們是用例行的產價調節計劃先給他計劃先有一個計劃在那邊那他根據他沒有依照採購法的部分依政府的規定要在50%以下那這個部分我們已經追繳他們也繳回來"},{"start":544.179,"end":570.852,"text":"那至於112年的部分我們是後面才提供一個補助所以在審核計劃的時候就已經把相關的不符合政府採購法的部分都已經扣掉了所以沒有所謂的說112年再追繳的一個問題所以112年不會追繳?不會因為是我們後面才核定的對我們後面核定的時候我們就有去檢視不符合政府採購法的部分我們的補助一定是50%以下"},{"start":572.432,"end":599.064,"text":"好,那最後我要跟院長跟部長講,我們有去算過啦,最後這個量彩喔,他在進口這個日本蛋的時候一顆大概是6塊多塊7塊,可是超市在進日本蛋的時候一顆基本上是7塊以上,所以顧名思義就是政府續產會他在採購的金額是越來越高,跟大家所想的不一樣,而且最重要我們有去稍微算了一下,這個"},{"start":604.704,"end":617.979,"text":"我們有去查了日本當地的這個零售價,一顆才4點多塊錢,中間將近有6塊錢的價差。是不是請這個院長跟部長,今天國會改革無法,請你回答一下,這樣到底有沒有圖利廠商的嫌疑?"},{"start":619.141,"end":636.677,"text":"好,跟委員報告,無論超私跟政府、量財跟政府或是超私量財之間,一切的行為必須合法而且依照合約來走,否則現在我們已經移送檢調單位在進行調查。那這個事件到讓我們引以為見,未來在從事任何"},{"start":637.478,"end":659.356,"text":"或許包括這種緊急需要的情況底下我們還是要慎選合作的對象看看他是不是能夠如實的履行合約有沒有這個能力而且我們對他是不是合約又轉嫁出去的這個行為要做適當的限制才能保障我們跟他之間直接合約關係的權利義務關係我想這個給我們很大的一個啟示跟未來的一個學習"},{"start":660.077,"end":680.771,"text":"好,謝謝院長。每次質詢院長的時候,我發現院長其實他是一個非常nice的人。其實就是要跟這個部長跟院長講,其實超失雞蛋案,其實花了大家人民很多的納稅錢,也花了很多立法委員去查核的這個時間。那我們長期以來,越農越富,不知道是不是跟續產會溝通上有一些問題。"},{"start":681.812,"end":705.334,"text":"所以很多時候我們立法委員去調資料的時候都自愛難行所以我要拜託我重新再講一次就是超私他在過去購買巴西蛋的時候他買了8000多萬顆結果裡面有5000多萬顆是沒辦法用的然後浪費人民納稅錢將近10億然後最近很多委員也在追現在剩下來這些雞蛋他到底能不能食用這也是一個問號"},{"start":706.335,"end":723.308,"text":"結果大家往前去追的時候才發現111年的時候超市還有去買日本雞蛋結果他當時還是有買賣斷的情形結果112年他又變成這個貿易商不僅可以收8%的手續費還補貼巴西蛋非常多的金額"},{"start":723.948,"end":723.968,"text":"﹚張智倫"},{"start":740.529,"end":765.813,"text":"我希望這個叫做超思這個巴西蛋跟超思錢鑽就是我們的日本蛋我希望趕快落幕不要讓花人民那麼多的納稅錢又花很多這個我們所有委員這個這個質詢的時間好嗎?好 謝謝我跟你講我們已經送一送檢調我們相信檢調單位應該很快的會去釐清好那我們謝謝部長我們接下來剩一點時間我們是可以請經濟部的這個部長請郭部長謝謝"},{"start":770.488,"end":770.63,"text":"郭部長請備詢"},{"start":780.447,"end":803.455,"text":"部長好,因為時間的關係我第一次有機會跟您見面,那想不到在質詢臺上,那我也是要跟你講說辛苦了,這部長非常不容易做。其實我觀察部長一段時間,部長從一開始是說這個核能是可以大家可以討論的,如果民意可以來去做一個大家可以做一個統整的一個意見,其實你不排斥核電。"},{"start":804.295,"end":804.955,"text":"報告委員我們的這個電力的政策應該是沒有改變"},{"start":832.421,"end":837.374,"text":"那至於說這個可能能不能夠討論我想應該是可以討論的議題啦"},{"start":839.639,"end":866.142,"text":"那這個未來是不是這個河山要不要研議,這個問題我們尊重大院的這個決定。那經濟部是執行單位,那只要在法的框架之下,那我們必須要依法行事。所以我想這個立法院能夠決定,就是我們做的事情的依法。謝謝,謝謝郭部長。部長,那個院長部長這樣講,您的看法是怎樣?如果大院,如果認為核電要研議,您的看法是不是跟郭部長一樣?"},{"start":866.874,"end":888.401,"text":"其實我剛剛也表示過現在依照核管法時間已經過了5年的時間了但是如果進行修法那修法會修成什麼狀況條文怎麼樣我們現在也不能夠預測那修法之後行政院是有依法行政但是我們也希望大家在討論的時候核安的問題核廢料的處理以及如何取得社會的共識大家都能夠很理性的來討論"},{"start":889.341,"end":899.996,"text":"沒錯,那我實際的關係最後請教一下部長,因為大家都非常關心額外,可是也很怕台灣跳電跟缺電。那而且尤其我上次在總質詢的時候我有請問,請問今年會不會還會漲電價?"},{"start":904.353,"end":925.186,"text":"我們今年4月已經漲過11%。對,那下半年還會不會漲電價?那現在電價審議委員會每年兩次的調整時間是固定的。我想要請教院長跟部長的想法,你們支不支持下半年還漲電價?我會以民生的需求、物價的穩定,甚至能夠提供產業更多的保障。那我是請部長回答,部長應該有一些,部長是很有想法的人。部長你覺得下半年有沒有需要漲電價?"},{"start":926.254,"end":926.274,"text":"謝謝張委員"},{"start":956.249,"end":956.65,"text":"謝謝卓院長。接下來我們請"}]}},{"id":"154420","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154420","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a1547e8c122e3977b77302c12d918673f79f1571e0513cca39fd520b7ea364581afcb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"09:01:58 - 09:17:42","影片長度":"00:15:44","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T09:01:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T09:17:42+08:00","duration":944,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":18,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（9時2分）主席江副院長、在座卓院長以及各部會首長，大家早安、大家好。主席，可否請行政院卓院長？"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["羅委員明才：卓院長早安。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員明才：身負重任啊！期盼你在當行政院長的這個時刻可以大鳴大放，為臺灣的經濟盡一份力量，也謝謝你，在還沒上任之前都是寄予厚望，希望行政院、立法院可以多多合作，為臺灣多做一點事，本席感到認同。現在經濟的發展，當然大家都很用心，我們看到股市從以前就開始喊股市上萬點，還給人民好生活，現在看到股市2萬點，我們要讓經濟更有看頭、更亮眼，那怎麼拚呢？我想接下來，其實臺灣是淺碟經濟，但是背後影響最大的是美國總統選舉，拜登有他的一套經濟哲學，另外川普如果當選的話，請問一下院長，對於這個11月5號即將出來的結果，你覺得臺灣做好準備了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，美國是一個民主、成熟、先進的國家，自然有它國內的一套選舉規範跟選舉進行的程度跟程序，我們一樣是民主國家，我們也不希望其他國家對我們的選舉指指點點，所以我們現在對美國的大選期予能夠平順地完成，選出美國人民最支持的總統，未來能夠擔任起更多的和平角色，為世界做更多的貢獻，這是我們的期待而已。"],["羅委員明才：是，日子總要過，時間總要走，可是很多人講，如果川普當選的話，美國股市可能會再上2萬點。我想臺灣現在所有經濟的依存度跟國外非常緊密結合在一起，請教一下院長，在你的心中，未來臺灣發展方向的主軸在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣當然要以現在我們占有優勢領先的高科技產業作為一個領頭，但是我們一直強調，我們不是要護國的神山，而是要群山。所以除高科技之外，我們現在極力對中小微企業進行更多的淨零轉型及數位轉型，但是這個都是未來的發展。另外，臺灣在衛生醫療方面應該有得到世界各國相當大的肯定，我們可以從這裡再發展更多的生技醫療、科技發展等等，最重要的是，我們要培育更多的人才，臺灣在人才欠缺的情況下，都完全走不出去，所以我們要更多人才。"],["羅委員明才：是，本席也很認同啦！可是現在臺灣產業是有點不均衡的發展，我們可以看到整個GDP總值占值真的強的其實就是你剛剛所說的，是電子股相關的，這波臺灣守住2萬點，因為股市是經濟的櫥窗，我們看到風起雲湧，了不起啊！NVIDIA的董事長黃仁勳是哪裡人？臺灣人。"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣人。"],["羅委員明才：他是臺南人嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：臺南人，對。"],["羅委員明才：所以我覺得臺南也蠻厲害的，臺南這個地方你看出了幾個總統，我們也發現臺南居然出了他，還有蘇姿丰，還有Charles，就是Supermicro的，部長可能都知道，真的是臺灣人的驕傲，所以希望在這個時刻，院長好好思考一下，怎麼樣把這些好的人才引進臺灣，不曉得院長認不認識黃仁勳？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，對這樣一個世界級大企業的領導者，我們都對他相當的景仰。"],["羅委員明才：我想我們郭部長因為是產業界出身，他更曉得整個經濟、電子產業的循環，不曉得郭部長認不認識黃仁勳？"],["郭部長智輝：認識。"],["羅委員明才：哇！太好了！既然認識，蘇姿丰也認識嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：認識。"],["羅委員明才：Charles也認識嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：認識。"],["羅委員明才：哇！都認識，太棒了！所以我們希望部長，你既然認識這些人，我覺得你要為全民來發聲。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["羅委員明才：因為包括Google、包括Apple總部或者是研發中心等等，很多人都希望回到臺灣，但是現在最怕的一點就是會缺電、會跳電，怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在電都有考慮這些公司所需求的電力，以目前我們所準備要上線的電及要下載的這些電，加總起來到2030年事實上還有200MW的餘量在。最近很抱歉，台電因為設備的老舊，或者是在某一個地區大量移居人口增加，造成負荷會比較大一點，所以會產生跳電的現象。這個我想……但是如果我們今天來看，從最近十年，每一年的跳電次數跟當今來比，現在並沒有比較多，現在只是因為媒體的報導，反而好像每天都有看到跳電，但是如果以過去的資料來講，我們大概已經降了差不多七成的跳電，不過這個我想不是理由啦！"],["羅委員明才：是。"],["郭部長智輝：我有責成台電一定要優先把這些跳電的地方整理好。"],["羅委員明才：部長，你也很理智，其實這些外商也好、剛剛所講的這些大公司，它不管你跳不跳電，它也不管你什麼小鳥或者是松鼠影響到斷線，它心裡想說到底會不會缺電、供電的品質會不會良好，這點你能做到嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會……我們很清楚啦！有一些工廠或是數據中心，它是不允許跳電，所以在這個部分，我們會強化、加強那一部分的保護措施。"],["羅委員明才：所以科學園區、重要的區域絕對不可以停電、不可以跳電。"],["郭部長智輝：對，是。"],["羅委員明才：但是其他民眾的民生用電都欠缺了啊！"],["郭部長智輝：也不是這樣子，我們現在因為其實人力有限，還有我們一直要把妥善率加強，只是現在可能要跟跨部會的單位協商，可能要從國外引進一些工人來做……"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。我想請問一下卓院長，這樣子說起來的話，2025所謂政府非核家園的目標，現在會不會改變？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，非核家園是定在2002年通過的環境基本法第二十三條，所以是現在的法令，就是逐步朝向非核家園，這中間會有很多的途徑、很多的過程、很多的努力，現在我們正朝向這個過程，但目前政府最優先的責任還是安全、穩定的供電。"],["羅委員明才：現在核三要停役的問題，你怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：核三在今年的7月27號是一個除役的時間點，依照核管法的規定，必須在5年之前就要提出一個是否延役的很多程序，包括安全總體檢等等以及設備的檢查及更換等等，現在我們已經過了那個5年的期間，所以7月27號除役、停下來不發電，這是勢必的工作。"],["羅委員明才：所以一定就是除役了？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照核管法是必須除役。"],["羅委員明才：如果除役的話，未來我們整個配電的比例來講就少掉那一塊，有沒有15%左右？"],["卓院長榮泰：95萬瓩。"],["郭部長智輝：應該是4%左右。"],["卓院長榮泰：3、4……"],["郭部長智輝：3、4%。"],["羅委員明才：好，少掉這一塊的話，你要怎麼補上去？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有新的電廠。"],["郭部長智輝：我們有幾個電廠，包括桃園的大潭會升上來，然後在南部也有電廠，電會升上來。"],["羅委員明才：所以你們已經做好準備了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們是做好了準備。"],["羅委員明才：所以未來缺不缺電？7、8月以後。"],["郭部長智輝：電力是不是缺少的這件事，肯定跟委員報告，是不會。"],["羅委員明才：不會缺電？"],["郭部長智輝：不會缺電。"],["羅委員明才：你應該要很清楚把整個事情講明白，也希望下一次Jensen黃仁勳來的時候，請你、也拜託你，既然你跟他認識，你大力來跟他介紹一下新北，因為我們新北，包括侯友宜市長非常熱忱地歡迎黃仁勳可以將NVIDIA的總部設在新北，或者是設在新店更好，因為也很感謝，本席多年爭取的寶高軟體智慧園區第一期已經完工，Tesla、鴻海都進駐了，就是在寶橋路旁邊的寶高軟體智慧園區，經濟部也補助了大概26億左右，當然還有第二期、第三期。在這裡也要拜託郭部長，下一次見到他，或是待會有空打個電話給他，我們新北、新店熱忱地歡迎全世界最棒的公司NVIDIA可以到新店設廠，把新店當作是一個永久落地的好地方，能不能拜託郭部長轉達這件事？"],["郭部長智輝：我可以轉達委員你的這一句話，我想我們會如實地轉達。"],["羅委員明才：感謝，謝謝，那這樣我就問不下去了。謝謝，因為你如果做這件事情，對我們新店來講如果能成功的話，因為它的交通便利、環境又好，人文、人才各方面可以說是萬事皆備，唯欠東風，感謝郭部長，如果你能促成這件事情，對我們新店、對整個新北、對整個北臺灣、臺灣來講，未來發展真的是無可限量，在這裡也拜託你。","另外，我們看到股市兩萬點了，接下來我們希望一起努力打拚，甚至可以上看三萬點、四萬點，但是很多人擔心，包括美商、歐商擔心的就是地緣政治的問題，我想請問一下院長，你在任的這個階段，會不會繼續來推動或者是創新地來推動臺獨的工作？"],["卓院長榮泰：中華民國就是一個主權獨立的國家，我們現在維護中華民國主權的現狀，在印太地區跟兩岸之間取得和平發展才是我們目前最重要的工作。"],["羅委員明才：所以不去碰那一塊了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在已經是主權獨立的國家，無須再做任何其他的表示。"],["羅委員明才：多數的臺灣人民都是希望維持現狀，因為在臺灣我們生活也都很開心、豐衣足食，但是我們更期盼兩岸是和平的，等距的三角關係，跟美國也好、跟日本也好、跟大陸也好，我們是友善的人民，我們的文化是和善的，最重要的是，讓臺灣這個地方是一個永久和平的場所，我們在這邊好好工作，所有人民安居樂業，我想這樣就是一百分啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我覺得臺灣的現狀就是應該和平穩定、經濟發展、讓人民安心。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝院長。接下來我要請教的就是，政府一直在大力推動臺灣成為整個亞太的財富管理中心。"],["卓院長榮泰：資產管理中心。"],["羅委員明才：資產管理中心，或是整個金融、總部的控制中心、理財中心，通通都可以。我們看到所有保險業的資金在海外大概有十幾兆左右，我們鼓勵它回來臺灣，但是公建部分可以投資的項目就必須要院長協調各部會，有交通部高速公路或者機場等等比較大型、有效益的，可以讓它發REITs或是發基金的方式，不曉得院長協調好了沒？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的指教，這個就是現在我們積極在進行的，包括亞洲資產管理中心，我們也請金管會做一些全面性的評估，有一個具體的措施出現，我希望在未來的兩個月當中，我們要讓國人看到我們在這個地方展現出來的計畫跟未來推動的方向、目標、時程。至於我們在海外的很多資金，包括保險業的很多資金，如何有效運用他們回來臺灣之後，投入到一個可以增加臺灣基礎建設、公共建設或是長照等等符合社會正面發展的用途上面，我們現在這樣處理。"],["羅委員明才：有一些修法部分如果需要的話，我這邊也會趕緊來提啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：因為時間的關係，最後也要拜託院長，因為我們新店還有很多地方的高地、老舊社區沒有自來水，沒有一個穩定的水質可以喝！在這裡拜託院長，是不是可以責成相關單位，包括經濟部，大家一起來關心一下最基本的民生問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對全國提高自來水的接管率、飲用有一套計畫已經在執行了，也編相關的金額，各縣市都有很積極地使用當中，也希望委員提出一些地點建議出來，讓我們進行評估。"],["羅委員明才：是，我再把資料交給院長，請多多協助最基本的民生問題，不要等股市上了3萬點但沒水喝，那差距就太大了！謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，我們的前瞻計畫已經有編列相關的預算，謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["委員羅明才書面補充資料：","一、全民普發現金法制常態化？","「疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別條例」為去年度行政院實施全民普發現金的法源依據，該條例之主管機關為國家發展委員會，條例及其特別預算施行期限至中華民國一百十四年十二月三十一日止。","由於特別條例尚在施行期間，又主管機關為國家發展委員會。本席在此就教院長與主委，由於財政部公布112年度歲收實徵數仍大於預算數達3,617億餘元，完全足夠實施全民普發現金1萬元，以持續落實全民共享經濟成果之立意。院長與主委是否支持將特別條例稍微修正調整，並排除原條例之經費上限，持續推動全民普發現金1萬元？或者研議將特別條例常態化，做為未來一旦歲入超徵後，即可實施全民普發現金的法源依據？","以新加坡為例，新加坡分別在2006年、2008年、2011年、2018年及疫情期間都曾普發現金給國民，發放次數相當頻繁。新加坡能，台灣為何不能？","2008年金融海嘯後，澳門為因應當時社會經濟受到的衝擊、減輕居民的生活壓力，加上澳門因博弈業發展帶來的經濟效益，提出了《現金分享計劃》，向符合資格的居民發放現金分享款項。澳門政府在2022年11月發表2023年財政年度施政報告時宣布，會繼續《現金分享計劃》，永久居民每人派發1萬澳門元（約新台幣3.8萬）現金，非永久居民派發6,000澳門元（約新臺幣2.2萬）。是2008年推出《現金分享計劃》後，連續第16年發錢。","香港也長年實施稅項寬減以及租金免稅、電費補貼等措施，2018年2月公布的預算案維持寬減75%薪俸稅及個人入息課稅，退稅上限調至3萬港元（約新臺幣11.6萬），創下史上最高。","2019-20年度的財政預算案寬減100%薪俸稅及個人入息課稅，上限2萬港元（約新臺幣7.7萬）。同時向18歲以上的永久居民發放1萬港元（約新臺幣3.8萬）；2021-22年度維持減100%薪俸稅，上限為1萬港元（約新臺幣3.8萬）。藉此鼓勵、帶動當地消費，並緩解市民經濟壓力。","在香港、澳門、新加坡皆可見到常態性的普發現金政策，盼院長與國發會主委借鏡國外，匯集財經部會共同討論全民普發現金由特別條例修正為一般常態法規之可行方案。","二、「能源轉型」與全民漲電價影響民生！","童子賢今年接任國家氣候變遷對策委員會副召集人，日前曾倡議能源黃金比例及表達對減碳的憂心。童子賢指出，台灣不能完全倚賴綠電，綠電占比30%，太陽能板需覆蓋三個「台北市」，若全風力供電需海域插滿1.5萬支風機，太陽能板的回收以及風機對珊瑚礁生態的影響都不易解決。更質疑供電比4.6%的太陽能跟2.2%的風力要怎麼支持AI、晶片製造等產業發展？","其所倡議台灣應有黃金能源比，綠電跟核電各應占30%，因台灣綠電比超過30%會對環境帶來很大的衝擊。政府2025非核家園政策規劃是20%綠電及50%天然氣發電，童子賢指出，該目標即使達成，台灣減碳仍落後國際，更何況2023年綠電供應比僅10.3%，進度明顯落後，其中還包含50年前就建置好的2.5%水力發電。","童子賢表示，核能好處是穩定，壞處也是穩定，當半夜不要電的時候它還在繼續發電，停不下來，所以法國有67%是核能，半夜發的電還賣給義大利，義大利雖反核，可是聯合國統計2023年有18.2%電力是從法國進口核能，「我不殺生，但你殺生給我吃。」這是義大利浪漫又務實的態度。如今台灣綠電發電量10.3%，加上核能才上升至16.9%，綠能必須跟核能攜手合作，也是務實的態度。相較於台電近期推出「住商自動需量反應試辦方案」，要遠端幫住戶關冷氣節電。台灣民生用電只有19%，企業用電量占整體用電75%，要民眾少吹冷氣沒有道理。不如把高速公路或雪山隧道車流少的時候熄燈三分之一，但東摳西省也只能節電1%。不如思考核能，一次就可以貢獻30%，甚至50%。再依其統計台電電力使用數據，台灣半夜的不排碳電力只剩1.17%。環境部規劃的「減碳指定目標」，係整體製造業於2030年應減總量至少須25%至28%。而執政黨更宣示，「2050淨零排放」是臺灣的目標。歐盟27國已正式認定核能為綠能。請教院長、部長，台灣能源政策可否效仿歐盟？如能認定核能為綠能，推動「能源轉型」，達成「2050淨零排放」才是務實的態度。","台灣電力公司今年4月，對所有用戶類別實行全面性的電價調整，不論是工業用戶、家庭用戶、小型商家或低壓用戶，面臨電費上漲的情況，台灣已連續三年調漲電價，本次電價平均調漲11%，調整後平均每度電價提高至3.4518元，台灣住宅電價平均為2.77元，工業電價平均為3.81元，影響範圍廣泛。台灣電價為何非漲不可？","最新調價方案在民生用電方面，對於月用電量在330度以下的住宅、700度以下的小商店，電費將調高3%；月用電量在331度~700度的住宅、701~1500度以下的小商家；電費將調高5%；而月用電量在701度~1000度的住宅、1501~3000度的小商家，電費將增加7%；月用電量超過1000度的住宅、3001度以上小商家，電費將上調10%。","根據經濟部評估，此次電費調整對一般家庭用戶（每月用電量不超過700度用戶占總數的93%，約1,250萬戶），電費上漲幅度介於3~5%，每月增加的電費不超過20元。對於小型商家（每月用電量在1500度以下的用戶占84%，約76萬戶），一天增加的電費不會超過5元。而對於餐飲業，包括小吃店及咖啡店等，每月用電量介於3,000至5,000度，調整後每日的平均電費預計增加35~70元。","對於特大用戶及資料中心等高耗電企業，將採取更高的調整幅度，以合理體現用電成本。例如，兩年內用電量平均呈正增長且用電超過5億度的企業，以及用電超過0.5億度的資料中心，將根據其用電規模，進行15%至25%的調幅，此舉旨在有效促進節能降耗。","此外，農漁業、教育機構（範圍從幼兒園至大專院校）以及社會福利組織，將繼續維持電價不變。","其次，本席請教部長，電價調漲是否將影響民生用水？水價的波動將會跟著電價調漲而跟漲，尤其是本席選區內的高地社區！","依據經濟部水利署老舊高地社區用戶加壓受水設備改善計畫（110-113年），確認接管之用戶加壓受水設備之計費標準，如屬老舊高地社區，則以下列計費方式收取20年之接管操作維護費：","(1)動力費：為基本電費與流動電費之總和，依台灣電力股份有限公司電價表計算合理動力費。","a）流動電費按實際使用電度計算：","計算公式=抽水機功率（kW）÷抽水機效率×每日運轉小時×三百六十五天×帄均流動電費（備用馬力不計入）。","b）基本電費按經常契約容量計算：","計算公式=夏月經常契約電價×經常契約容量×夏月時間（依台電公司公告為準）+非夏月經常契約電價×經常契約容量×非夏月時間（依台電公司公告為準）。","老舊高地社區自來水接管操作維護費、現況設置加壓系統抽水使用電費等都由住戶負擔，未來調漲電費，等同變相調漲全台灣所有高地社區民生用水之負擔！這一部分盼經濟部會同台電公司、自來水公司、臺北自來水事業處共商是否在調漲電費，得以免除全台高地社區自來水加壓設備用電的部分，以維護民生用水權益。","其次，對於老舊高地社區加壓受水設備改善計畫，由於臺北自來水事業處之供水區域尚包含：新北市新店、永和、中和部分、三重部分及汐止區7個里，惟從臺北自來水事業處官方網站來看，似乎有排斥推動新北市行政區內老舊高地社區加壓受水設備改善計畫？","盼行政院依「地方制度法」第77條第二項，「直轄市間、直轄市與縣（市）間，事權發生爭議時，由行政院解決之；」請行政院、經濟部督促臺北自來水事業處積極推動其供水區內新店、永和、中和、三重部分及汐止區7個里之老舊高地社區加壓受水設備改善計畫。","三、因應主權AI興起，積極爭取國際大廠落腳新北","因應主權AI興起，國科會主委吳誠文接受媒體專訪時表示，將推關鍵應用系統「國產化」。台灣有領先世界的半導體技術，但服務國際大廠相對可惜，台灣應該發展自己的應用系統，不僅是下個階段的機會，也能固守資安與國安。台灣若明確定義出應用需求，龐大的市場商機就會浮現，產業就能抓住機會投資發展。台灣半導體產業一枝獨秀、在國際上大鳴大放，但半導體產業與其服務國際大廠，台灣更應該發展擁有自己系統的公司；現階段台灣科技廠主要對接都是國際公司，提供高價值晶片讓國際公司的價值翻上百倍，卻沒有培養自己的系統公司，是接下來要努力的方向。","台灣製造的消費性半導體、高階計算機或AI使用的半導體晶片，在全球占據領先地位，當前不論AI系統、手機筆電終端系統均由國外廠商發展出來，即便有自己生產的筆電，也僅變化外觀，沒有使用台灣自產的系統。為強化主權AI，台灣須建立國內自主AI系統，國科會將跨部會與經濟部、衛福部合作，也會在學校支持，讓台灣電子設備製造業未來能做到應用自主化。","台灣在無人機和醫療兩大領域相當有機會，當前台灣在無人機的發展主要陷入無法量產降低成本的困境，但大街小巷都有餐飲外送需求、或是便利商店物流、電商網購送貨，甚至在農業、國土邊坡巡檢等都是無人機可嘗試的市場，關鍵在明確定義無人機的應用。此外，2025年台灣將邁入超高齡社會，透過科技實現精準醫療，讓「在宅醫療」、「居家醫療」的普及，醫生可線上問診、病人雲端傳遞量血壓或病徵等資訊，處方領藥也能順利在社區完成。因此，台灣需要發展自有的系統，達到科技應用自主，以確保國人各項數據資料、資安風險。","在臺灣成功發展主權AI之前，不論在硬體技術、或軟體實力上，仍需要致力培養各類型系統研發人員，不管是從產業或國防安全角度，擁有自己的科技系統，讓關鍵技術留台，才能避免因疫情或地緣政治面對斷鏈風險。而發展過程中更需要借鏡目前的技術領先者，輝達（NVIDIA）創辦人黃仁勳日前透露，有意在台灣設立研發中心，地點考慮放在研發人才多的地方。","新北市除了侯友宜市長曾強調新北交通網路很方便、產業腹地非常大，其中多家輝達重要的供應鏈廠商也落腳在新北市，非常適合發展AI產業聚落。除了淡海、林口產業園區、麥仔園、柑仔園，以及開發中的泰山楓江等，本席選區內的「新店寶高智慧產業園區」作為新北推動智慧城市發展基地，不僅依循低碳能源、環保永續、智慧科技興建而成，以永續性經營模式；寶高園區二期則以數位研發、應用製造與試驗研究的智慧科技場域，朝向智慧化、低碳化等方向發展。未來如新北市政府推動規劃新店寶高智慧園區第三期，亦請經濟部等中央主管機關大力支持。","四、國發基金擴編為主權基金？","護國神山台積電股價續締新猷。行政院國發基金持有16,537億股台積電，股票價值突破兆元大關。又國發基金2023年獲利出爐，全年進帳約289億元，其中占比最大成分的台積電與陽明海運分別貢獻180億、90億元股利，儼然是國發基金的金雞母。台積電雖然號稱護國神山，但外資比重占其股權卻超過74%，外資才是台積電名義上的老闆。","依國發基金112年報，國發基金112年12月底資產總額新臺幣1兆2,810.29億元，負債總額14.32億元，淨值總額1兆2,795.97億元。","再依據國發基金管理委員會官方資料顯示，國發基金發展的沿革也是不斷透過法規調整、整合後逐步壯大。(一)開發基金係政府依據「獎勵投資條例」第84條規定，於62年由行政院依特別預算程序設置，並以公營事業移轉民營之收入及國庫撥款為資金來源，作為支應各項投融資業務之運用。(二)79年以後，政府制訂「促進產業升級條例」，作為政府推動產業升級，健全經濟發展之行動綱領，並將開發基金政策任務予以擴充，期能為國內之產業創新及研究發展與技術升級提供良好的資金支援基礎。(三)95年依「中央政府特種基金管理準則」第16條規定，經行政院核定將開發、中美兩基金合併成立國家發展基金。99年制訂「產業創新條例」第29條明定國家發展基金設置法源及用途。106年行政院核准國發基金投資「國家級投資公司」。","由國發基金逐步成長的發展軌跡來看，未來如若再結合或許外匯儲備盈餘、或許財政部每年超徵的歲收等資金來源，配合國發基金已投資的「國家級投資公司」。基本上，臺灣的主權基金雛型已然成形。","以新加坡的淡馬錫控股（Teamsek）為例，該公司投資策略著重於影響力領域佈局，透過影響力投資策略，期望尋求需要資源的地區帶來積極影響，同時提供可持續的長期財務回報。相較於淡馬錫以投資一級市場為主，新加坡主權基金（GIC）側重在二級市場投資，例如GIC的氣候科技（climate tech）投資著重於可能產生長期價值的技術，包括儲能、綠氫、碳捕捉與儲存，或綠色鋼鐵等解決方案，來加速能源轉型或協助產業脫碳進程。","實務上臺灣的國際政治發展空間有限，透過仿效新加坡主權基金的模式，投資全球國際企業龍頭，臺灣也能在碳權經濟、低軌衛星通訊、主權AI、軍工產業等取得一定的影響力，或協助本土產業轉型升級。台積電號稱護國神山，但外資比重占其股權超過74%，外資才是台積電名義上的老闆。未來透過主權基金的運作，也未可知臺灣是否成為特定產業、且具有國際影響力的知名企業，幕後名義上的老闆？","各國爭相倡議主權AI，而不可諱言地說，AI、機器人等領先技術掌握在國際大廠手中，如能透過主權基金持股具有領先地位的世界級科技公司，以商業手段加強臺灣在主權AI建置上的有利地位，亦是政府應審慎考慮的方向之一。","五、碳費及企業面臨溫室氣體盤查、確信資訊揭露困境","碳費審議委員會由環境部選出21名，包含專家學者8名、官方部會代表7名、公民及環保團體代表6名。本席請教院長，內閣改組後官方部會代表是否已變更？碳費審議委員會中7名官方部會代表，經濟部長是否有代表席次？","碳費何時開徵？依碳費徵收辦法草案，2025年起，業者得於每年5月底前，依前一整年度排放量，自行計算應繳納的碳費，並於主管機關平台填報申報書，列印繳費單、至指定金融機構代收專戶繳費。而環境部公告盤查對象，第一批納管徵收碳費的對象，屬環境部公告應盤查且年排放量（直接與使用電力排放量）2.5萬噸以上，包含電力業、鋼鐵、水泥、煉油、石化業、半導體、與薄膜電晶體液晶顯示器業等製造業。","過去，前環境部長曾對媒體表示，「碳費一般費率不會太低」，而「優惠費率有機會讓該繳的碳費減半」。而第一批納管對象，其中包含中鋼、台電、中油、台船等經濟部管轄、位居基礎建設且屬於上游製造業者。未來若政府開始徵收碳費，上游業者是否會轉嫁成本？對國內產業產生的衝擊？其中國營事業如台電、中油、中鋼等會不會努力爭取「優惠費率」？以免造成其他物價通膨？或如何避免造成綠色通膨？","以過去環境部曾預告碳費為每噸為320元，請教經濟部長，經濟部轄下各國營事業是否已著手進行碳盤查？並以此基礎下計算出每年可能須付擔之碳費？碳費之徵收將導致各國營企業每年盈餘減損之範圍？是否可能造成企業經營之不利影響？是否可能造成公司虧損，導致員工權益、年終獎金之減損？以台電為首的虧損企業，是否已備妥相關的應變計畫或財務規劃？","此外，依據金管會要求上市櫃公司永續發展路徑圖，並配合接軌IFRS及公司治理、ESG等的，逐步要求上市櫃公司溫室氣體盤查及確信資訊揭露。惟依據證券交易所公告確信機構認可名單共32家，其中超過半數以上是會計師事務所。而依據環境部公告的合格溫室氣體查驗機構僅15家，當中不存在任何一家會計師事務所。亦即，依證交所提供的確信機構實施的碳盤查所得之驗證與資格，未必被環境部所接受，對於業界而言豈非徒勞無功？","部長具備企業經營相關實務經驗，請教部長，認為目前市場上碳盤查相關的確信機構量能是否充足？對於金管會、證交所所公布的確信機構並不等同於達到環境部要求規格的溫室氣體查驗機構，金管會與環境部各自為政是否會造成企業界的困擾？經濟部是否應扮演居中協調的角色，綜合環境部與金管會的訴求，代替業界發聲，以減輕各企業面臨的碳焦慮。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員、謝謝卓院長。","接下來請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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佔值真的強了。其實就您剛剛所說的是電子股相關的。這一波台灣首住2萬點, 因為這個股市是經濟的櫥窗。我們看到風起雲湧啊, 了不起啊。NVIDIA的董事長, 黃文勛是哪裡人?"},{"start":238.244,"end":264.607,"text":"臺灣人臺南人所以我覺得臺南也蠻厲害的齁臺南這個地方啊你看出了幾個總統那我們也發現臺南居然除了他還有蘇之鋒啊還有Charles就是Supermicron的部長可能都知道這是臺灣人的驕傲所以希望在這個時刻"},{"start":266.055,"end":292.091,"text":"院長也好好思考一下,怎麼樣把這些好的人才引進到臺灣?不曉得院長認不認識黃仁勳?當然對這樣的一個世界級的大企業的領導者,我們都對他相當的敬仰。我想我們郭部長因為產業出身,他更曉得整個經濟、電子產業的學法。不曉得郭部長認不認識黃仁勳?"},{"start":295.23,"end":310.609,"text":"認識 認識喔 哇太好了 那既然認識喔 那那個孫志峰也認識嗎 認識 Charles也認識嗎 認識 哇都認識齁 太棒了 所以我們希望說部長齁 你既然認識這些人齁 我覺得你要為全民來發聲 是"},{"start":313.1,"end":324.691,"text":"大家包括Google包括Apple總部或者是研發中心等等很多人都說要回到臺灣但是現在最怕的一點就是說會缺電會跳電怎麼辦"},{"start":329.615,"end":344.568,"text":"報告委員,我們現在這個電都有考慮這些公司他所需求的電力。以目前我們所準備的要上線的電跟我們要下載的這些電加總起來我們到這個2030年事實上還有200M的這個餘量站。"},{"start":347.59,"end":364.629,"text":"最近我們台電因為這個設備的這個老舊或者是在某一個地區大量的這個移居的人增加所以造成那個負荷會比較大一點所以會產生跳電的現象這個我想"},{"start":365.089,"end":385.664,"text":"但是如果說我們今天來看我們從這個最近這個10年我覺得每一年的跳電的次數跟當今來比現在並沒有比較多現在只是因為媒體的報導反而好像他每天看到都有個跳電但是如果以過去的資料來講我們大概已經降了差不多七成的這個跳電"},{"start":386.525,"end":412.628,"text":"不過這個我想不是理由啦我有責成臺電一定要優先把這些跳電的地方給他整理好你也很理智的齁其實這些外商也好剛所講這些大公司齁他不管你跳不跳電他也不管你什麼小鳥或者是松鼠影響到這個斷線他心裡講說到底會不會缺電供電的品質啊會不會良好這點你能做到嗎"},{"start":413.971,"end":416.053,"text":"科學園區、重要區絕對不可以停電、不可以跳電。但是其他民眾、民生的用電都欠缺了。"},{"start":437.116,"end":438.737,"text":"我想請問一下卓院長,現在2025的所謂政府的非核家園的目標現在會不會改變?"},{"start":466.051,"end":490.314,"text":"報告委員非核家園是定在我們2002年通過的環境基本法23條所以是現在的法律就是逐步朝向非核家園這中間會有很多的途徑很多的過程很多的努力那現在我們朝向這個過程但現在政府最優先的責任還是安全穩定的供電那現在河山要停役的問題你怎麼看"},{"start":491.124,"end":491.424,"text":"一定就是廚藝了。"},{"start":517.113,"end":529.023,"text":"依照核管法這必須處理那這樣如果處理的話為了我們整個配電的比例來講那就少掉那一塊大概有沒有15%左右95萬千萬大概是應該是4個%左右3、4個%那少掉這一塊的話你要怎麼補上去"},{"start":540,"end":567.109,"text":"我們有幾個電廠,包括在桃園的大潭會升上來,然後在南部也有電廠會升上來。所以你們已經做好了準備嗎?是,我們是做好的準備。未來缺不缺電?缺電,電力是不是缺少,這個我們肯定跟委員報告是不會。不會缺電?不會缺電。"},{"start":568.988,"end":592.369,"text":"你應該要很清楚然後把整個事情講明白那也希望下一次Jason黃仁勳來的時候請你也拜託你既然你跟他認識你大力來跟他介紹一下新北因為我們新北包括侯友宜侯市長非常熱忱的歡迎"},{"start":594.414,"end":607.162,"text":"王仁勳、NVIDIA總部可以設在新北,或者是設在新店更好。因為也很感謝本席多年的爭取,"},{"start":608.476,"end":628.939,"text":"保高暖體智慧園區第一期已經完工,很多Tesla、鴻海都進駐了,就是在保橋路旁邊,保高暖體智慧園區,經濟部也補助了大概26億左右,當然還有第二期、第三期,在這裡也要拜託我們"},{"start":630.202,"end":652.281,"text":"郭部長,下一次見到他或是待會有空打個電話給他,我們新北新電熱誠的歡迎全世界最棒的公司NVIDIA可以到新店設廠,把新店當作是一個永久落地的好地方。能不能拜託郭部長轉達這件事。"},{"start":654.002,"end":663.501,"text":"我可以轉達委員你的這句話,我想我們會如實的轉達。感謝,謝謝,謝謝。那這樣我就再問不下去了。"},{"start":665.86,"end":693.16,"text":"謝謝因為你如果做這件事情的話對我們新店來講如果能成功的話因為他的交通便利他的環境又好人文人才各方面可以說是萬事皆備唯欠東風感謝郭部長如果你能促成這件事情的話那對我們新店對整個新北對整個北台灣台灣來講未來發展真的是無可限量在這裡也拜託你"},{"start":693.953,"end":715.605,"text":"另外我們看到股市2萬點了接下來我們希望一起努力打拚甚至可以上看3萬點、4萬點但是很多人擔心的包括美商、歐商擔心的就是地緣政治的問題我想請問一下院長"},{"start":716.565,"end":742.976,"text":"那你再任的這個階段你會不會繼續來推動或者是創新的來推動這個臺獨的工作中華民國就是一個主權獨立的國家我們現在維護中華民國主權的現狀在印太地區跟兩岸之間取得這樣和平發展才是我們目前最重要的工作所以不去碰那一塊了"},{"start":743.786,"end":762.322,"text":"我們現在已經是主權獨立的國家,無需要再做任何其他的。我希望說,因為多數的台灣人民都是希望維持現狀。因為在台灣我們生活也都很開心,風衣足食。但是我們更期盼兩岸是和平的。"},{"start":763.586,"end":787.598,"text":"我們等距的三角關係跟美國也好跟日本也好跟大陸也好我們是友善的人民我們的文化是和善的最重要的是讓台灣這個地方是一個永久和平的場所我們在這邊都好好工作所有人民安居樂業我想這樣就是100分啊"},{"start":788.851,"end":808.009,"text":"我覺得臺灣的現狀就是應該和平穩定經濟發展讓人民安心謝謝院長那接下來我要請教的話就是政府一直在大力推動說希望臺灣成為整個亞太中心的財富管理中心資產管理中心或是"},{"start":810.191,"end":810.231,"text":"﹚羅明才"},{"start":831.272,"end":844.199,"text":"協調各部會,有交通部啊,高速公路啊,或者機場等等啊,比較大型有效益的可以讓他整個發REIT或是發基金的方式,不曉得院長協調好了沒。"},{"start":846.453,"end":871.47,"text":"謝謝委員的指教這個就是現在我們積極在進行的包括亞洲資產管理中心我們也請金管會能夠做一些全面性的評估那麼有一個具體的措施出現那我希望在這未來的兩個月當中我們能讓國人看到我們在這個地方展現出來的計畫跟未來推動的方向跟目標跟時程至於說我們在海外的很多資金包括保險業者很多資金"},{"start":872.17,"end":880.352,"text":"如何有效的運用他們回來台灣之後投入到一個可以增加台灣基礎建設公共建設的這樣的或是長照等等"},{"start":882.066,"end":909.528,"text":"復合這會正面發展的用途上面去。有一些修法的部分,如果需要的話,我這邊也會趕緊來提。因為11天關係,最後也要拜託院長,因為我們新店還有相關很多地方,高地、老舊社區,沒有自來水,沒有一個穩定的水質可以喝。在這裡拜託院長,是不是可以責成相關,包括經濟部,大家一起來關心一下最基本的民生問題。"},{"start":910.487,"end":910.507,"text":"謝謝羅委員"},{"start":942.278,"end":942.419,"text":"謝謝卓院長"}]}},{"id":"154439","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154439","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a15475c6a65572086ccef2c12d918673f79f1e1a2ba657b02e25b8ce2492c85169a165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"15:49:42 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16:05:46","影片長度":"00:16:04","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T15:49:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T16:05:46+08:00","duration":964,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":366,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（15時50分）主席好，麻煩請卓榮泰院長，還有文化部部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢，請文化部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：院長好、部長好。先跟你請教一下，因為上個禮拜所謂有中共介入臺灣的政論節目，這件事情吵得非常的熱。昨天我看到陸委會副主委梁文傑說找不到爆料者，看起來好像這件事情要石沉大海了。我覺得非常遺憾，我希望院長、部長可以拿出查案的精神把這個事情查出來。我先講一個網路的笑話給院長聽，有一個唐僧剛下飛機就有記者問他對於陪酒小姐的看法，唐僧說臺北有小姐？結果第二天媒體的標題是「唐僧一到臺北，馬上問臺北有小姐嗎？」完全是標題殺人，後來隔天唐僧生氣了，記者又問他陪酒小姐的事，然後唐僧就說我不會再理你，隔天標題是說「唐僧一怒為紅顏」。我個人認為今天所謂的中共介入臺灣政論節目這個事情，很有可能就跟我剛剛講的網路笑話很像，一個不知名的消息來源爆料，記者跑去跟電視臺求證，電視臺說這個子虛烏有、一無所知，結果隔天電視臺可以寫這麼大篇的新聞出來，然後民進黨的府院黨馬上就說這確有此事。請問一下「確有此事」查得怎麼樣？陸委會副主委梁文傑是推給文化部跟NCC，剛好今天教文組的文化部有來，我想問一下文化部長，請問一下，這個事情查得怎麼樣？"],["李部長遠：對我們來講，我們的職權所在，我們只能去個文……"],["葉委員元之：現在查得怎麼樣？已經一個禮拜了。"],["李部長遠：OK，我們的職權，我們也不可能有調查權，我們只有行政調查……"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！你的職權查得怎麼樣？就你的職權而言，查得怎麼樣了？"],["李部長遠：目前我們只能發文給當初邀請他的單位，我們只能做到這一步。"],["葉委員元之：你只有發文而已喔！"],["李部長遠：對，因為……"],["葉委員元之：哇！這麼嚴重的事情欸！中共都介入到我們媒體了，這麼嚴重的事情，你只有發文而已喔！"],["李部長遠：因為我們……"],["葉委員元之：文化部不把我們臺灣國安當一回事欸！"],["李部長遠：文化部也不是個調查單位。"],["葉委員元之：是嘛！可是因為各個機關都要分頭去查嘛！現在只有你在，我問你，結果你的態度是只有發文，感覺好像這個事情也沒有很嚴重嘛！沒有很嚴重？院長，這樣態度可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果事涉國家安全或牽涉到干涉媒體……"],["葉委員元之：嚴重吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：當然嚴重。"],["葉委員元之：那怎麼會只發文而已？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是任何一件事情都必須要去確切的掌握到資訊，瞭解到真相……"],["葉委員元之：對啦！很緊急的事情馬上就處理了，結果現在部長只發文，還公文旅行。"],["卓院長榮泰：文化部也好，或其他單位也好，第一個，只能依法行政，做自己業內該做的事情，除了文化部的發文之外，其他單位有沒有進一步的瞭解，這個我們要統合所有……"],["葉委員元之：院長，這個事情這麼嚴重，國安問題，結果你的態度是文化部就發文，其他也要瞭解，院長好像也無所謂的樣子……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很重視……"],["葉委員元之：讓我不禁想到……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不希望有這個事實。"],["葉委員元之：讓我不禁想到幾年前有一個王立強事件，2019年的時候，王立強在澳洲尋求政治庇護，把自己講得跟中共版的007一樣，說他運用龐大資源介入臺灣選舉，還幫助我們韓國瑜選高雄市長，然後隔年用一堆錢又要影響我們總統大選，結果當時蔡英文總統說一定要查，還派人到澳洲去瞭解，也是一樣，府院黨都把這個事情當一回事，甚至於把王立強咬出來在臺灣的向心夫婦都抓起來了，限制出境，查了半天，向心夫婦完全無罪，已經離開了，王立強呢？澳洲政府說「你要申請庇護，不可能！因為你就是個詐騙犯」，把他遣返了。結果當時把王立強很當一回事的那些民進黨高官，有沒有一個人出來道歉說不好意思，誤信了詐騙犯？今天這個事情，對！中共介入政論節目，如果有，非常可惡！可是我現在看到的是船過水無痕，前幾天把他罵成這樣，現在文化部的態度是我發公文了，院長的態度是相關機關會去查，什麼時候會查出結果？"],["卓院長榮泰：要依法行政去瞭解……"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候會有……對，這件事情很嚴重，我不希望看到這個事情跟王立強事件一樣船過水無痕，尤其是被自由時報指涉的那家電視臺，主持人已經連續好幾集在自清了。被指涉的那個是假日錄影的，也把所有來錄影的影帶都提供給相關單位了，所以要查一定可以查，拜託給國人一個交代，不要像王立強事件一樣，操作完了、抹紅完了，就船過水無痕，院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也希望文化部既然……"],["葉委員元之：我不預設立場，但是我希望院長給國人一個交代。"],["卓院長榮泰：文化部既然已經有發文或是有相關的調查行為，應該把調查結果整理之後跟社會公布。我也很希望……"],["葉委員元之：文化部……"],["卓院長榮泰：我也很希望這件事情是沒有的，我也很希望。"],["葉委員元之：院長，這個事情到底是那個媒體隨便亂爆料，傷害到別人的名譽……現在被指涉的人都一直自清，結果指控別人的卻好像沒事一樣，跟唐僧一樣啊，下飛機被問有沒有陪酒小姐，就變成好像他對陪酒小姐很有興趣，我們現在可以這樣子嗎？被罵的人要出來自清，指控別人卻可以隨便講話，然後又牽涉到國安，結果政府無所謂，這不是我們政府的態度吧！院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：文化部跟其他單位已經在調查了，如果彙整出來以後，清楚地向大家報告有沒有這件事，我也很希望沒有這樣的事情，表示我們的媒體自律是非常完善的。"],["葉委員元之：如果沒有的話，為什麼民進黨的立委可以去指控人家？為什麼那時候陸委會說確有其事？對不對？而且院長，今天陸委會副主委說找不到消息來源，明明自由時報就有報導一個資深媒體人啊，不能叫自由時報把資深媒體人講出來是誰嗎？它一定會說：不好意思，我不提供消息來源。問題是這牽涉到國安，何等重要啊！你媒體也有社會責任，為了國安，你不能夠交出消息來源嗎？所以只是要不要交的問題嘛！所以院長，拿出道德勇氣，給國人一個交代，不要讓大家都好像變成跟唐僧一樣，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我再進一步瞭解，再跟委員報告。"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候可以給大家答案？"],["卓院長榮泰：瞭解之後馬上跟委員報告。"],["葉委員元之：要瞭解多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：會儘快瞭解，因為這個不是很難的事情。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛，一個禮拜可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["葉委員元之：因為這個事情會造成社會動盪啦，我們希望國家可以和諧，一個禮拜好不好？你告訴大家。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果沒有牽扯複雜情節的話，一個禮拜應該是足以瞭解事實真相。"],["葉委員元之：一點都不複雜啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，如果沒有的話，一個禮拜可以清楚。"],["葉委員元之：一個禮拜告訴大家這件事情到底是真的還是假的，然後如果是假的，陸委會說有，為什麼亂講？相關的責任查清楚，我們臺灣不要變成這樣，一直在國內找敵人。總統、院長是要團結臺灣，不是對立臺灣，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，是的。"],["葉委員元之：我們都與人為善，好不好？不要這樣找敵人。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["葉委員元之：因為今天是教文組的質詢，我要跟院長討論幾個教育的議題，其實我在教育及文化委員會，我就關心幾個議題，比如說108課綱、校園安全，還有雙語教育或是母語教育推廣等等，很多教育議題我都推廣，我都非常關心，還有高齡教育等等，但是因為今天也沒有太多時間，我就抓兩個議題跟院長討論，有的跟部長也講過，但是有些事情我覺得需要讓院長知道，所以今天特別來講。我先引用諾貝爾經濟學獎得主海耶克《通往奴役之路》這本書裡面有一句話，他說通往地獄的路都是由善意鋪成的，這是他講的。我當然知道很多教育政策，大家都是出於善意，我們不希望這個善意讓我們的莘莘學子們通往地獄。如果用白話文講就是有的時候理想很豐滿、現實很骨感。我覺得這句話很適用在108課綱上面，這是108課綱所期待的學生樣態，要自主行動、社會參與、溝通互動，後面又列了非常多項的分項素養。院長，您認同這個108課綱所期待的學生樣態嗎？應該是認同吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：就像委員所說的，它希望的是大家清楚自己的學習歷程，而且能夠展現自己的特色，而且能夠被激發出潛力，原意當然是這樣子、是好的。"],["葉委員元之：理想嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：理想要把它落實。"],["葉委員元之：但是這幾年，108課綱自從實施以來，每一年專家學者、老師、學生都提出各項各樣的檢討，我沒有看到教育部有根據實施的落差、理想與現實的落差而做任何調整，所以今天特別來跟院長講。如果大家認同這需要調整的話，應該要拿出行動力，而不是每一年都在檢討一樣的事情。像我待會要講的東西，去年也有人講過，前年也有人講過，但是從來沒有人去調整。118課綱現在就要訂定了，在訂定118課綱時，有沒有可能把108課綱大家覺得比較有缺失的部分做一些整理？我先簡述一下108課綱的問題，很多老師跟我說，現在108課綱就是把必修課減少，變成選修課，大概減少四分之一的必修課，所以老師必須要去準備選修課，第一個，壓力變大，但是工作時數沒有減少；第二，很多學生參加選修課的時候，他要繳的報告，他不是考試，他要繳一個類似碩士的那種田野調查報告，就是要有研究問題、研究方法，最後要有結論的，那個必須要大學、碩士可能才有類似素養所做出來的東西，學生壓力也變得非常大，那老師也要花非常多時間去改那些報告，所以時間都會影響到他的教學品質，這是第一件事情。","第二件事情，學校說，忽然間108課綱增加了非常多東西，例如學習歷程檔案，但是學校並沒有得到相對應行政的support，所以有很多學校對於學習歷程檔案的支持是比較少的。再來我們看學生的意見，因為學生才是實際上接受這個課綱的人，我跟院長推薦一個單位叫做EdYouth，這個單位有幾位是大學生、有臺大的、政治系的，還有一些高中生，他們每一年都會針對108課綱做出檢討，而且他們的檢討是有憑有據，他們是發問卷，問卷對象是一千多份，他們在做課綱研討會的時候還會邀請教育部的官員來，但每一次教育部官員來聽完他們的建議之後，修改的是少之又少！","我就舉一個例子，因為今天時間不多，我就舉一項──學習歷程檔案，這是他們做的調查，針對學習歷程檔案有超過50%的學生覺得需要有校園的系統來支持，為什麼？因為學習歷程檔案其實還是需要一些專業。那學習歷程檔案有哪些問題？我們可以來看一下，比如第一個，學習歷程檔案雖然大家做得非常辛苦，可是很多大學在招生的時候，第一階段看的還是學測的成績，你們可以去瞭解一下到底有多少大學教授會很認真看學生的學習歷程檔案，這個教育部也可以去查，這是第一件事情。第二件事情，學習歷程檔案很強調要學生去做自我探索，對吧？自我探索。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葉委員元之：但是你覺得他們這樣有探索到嗎？有的是先射箭再畫靶，從小家長叫他學醫，所以他在學習歷程檔案中全部都往醫學院方向去寫；有的是探索到高二、高三之後，忽然發現他的志趣跟他過去探索的都不一樣，可是完了！他過去的學習歷程檔案做的都是另外一個方向，產生極大的焦慮！再來更不要講學習歷程檔案很多人都外包，網路上一查，外面很多補習班都是在幫人家學習歷程檔案，所以這個問題很嚴重。我們剛剛看到，學生他們在做學習歷程檔案的時候常常有問題要問老師、同學或者是專家，但不知道問誰啊！也產生很大的焦慮，這都是學生的意見。","我剛剛把我所知道的，有老師的反應、學生的反應，更不要講因為必修課已經減少四分之一，所以現在要讀專業科目的時候，很多東西都很粗糙、很粗略，沒有辦法讀到細節。例如讀歷史，現在歷史很多都是很簡單，沒有故事性、沒有脈絡，學生就必須去記那個年分跟發生的事情，失去了對整個歷史的興趣。歷史就是要鑑古知今，它有一個脈絡，有環境的影響、細節的影響、人事物的影響，有時候就沒有辦法讀得那麼有趣，所以這個108課綱是有很多問題的。","我知道現在也沒有很多時間讓院長、部長回答，我現在只希望一件事情，就是能不能夠真的認真召開一個委員會或者什麼會議，你把很多人的意見納進來，然後真的來做一個檢討？這些檢討報告當然可以逐步地修改，或者是118課綱的時候可以針對108課綱所衍生的問題做調整，不知道院長跟部長能不能做到？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，委員的這個建議是必定會做的，從檢討過去到策勵未來……"],["葉委員元之：現在都沒在做，院長，因為你去……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員也知道我們四個升學的管道，不論是繁星計畫、申請入學、分科分發，或者是特殊選才，都有相當的人數經過這樣的管道下去，除了學測之外，有高中在校的成續、有學習過程、一些特殊的選才過程，還有一些就是像學測，都有固定的人數從這四個不同管道進去。但是能不能像剛剛委員所說的，除了學測之外，確實注意到他的學習歷程或是對於其他的科目類別的選項，這個要去檢討。"],["葉委員元之：院長，我覺得你的回答好像沒有聽懂我講的，你講的只是分發，就是考招的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葉委員元之：我講的是學習的部分，我講的是108課綱學習的部分。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["卓院長榮泰：一定要納入這個檢討。"],["葉委員元之：因為現在就是，我特別來總質詢、在那麼重要的時間來講，我是希望，因為每一年大家都在講一樣的事情，可是我們不曾看到有調整，希望大家很認真的針對這些事情做一個調整，去回應社會或學界的需求。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上有許多大學也看到高中原來開了許多選修課，有一定比例的大學包括臺、成、清、交、中山的教授開……"],["葉委員元之：部長，好處一定有，我現在指出的是缺失，我們有缺失就要去調整嘛？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：我希望你考100分，你說你考了30分，其實也不錯，那這樣……"],["鄭部長英耀：不會的！我們對教育品質一定是有堅持的。"],["葉委員元之：我們希望至少能夠70分、80分、90分、100分啦！好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請教育部檢討現行課綱真正執行下來的一個問題，作為未來的策勵。"],["葉委員元之：對，沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：就是瞭解現在的善意，以後通向天堂。"],["葉委員元之：對。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，教育及文化組之質詢已詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。現作以下決定：下次會議進行交通組之質詢。我們現在散會，謝謝。","散會（16時6分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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院長可以嗎?我不予設立場,但是我希望院長給國人一個交代。文化部既然已經有發文或是相關的這個調查,應該把這個調查結果整理之後跟社會公佈。我也很希望這件事情是沒有的。到底是那個媒體隨便亂爆料,傷害到別人名譽。現在被指涉的人都一直致親,結果指控別人好像沒事一樣,跟唐森一樣啊。"},{"start":358.391,"end":369.341,"text":"下飛機被問有沒有裴友小姐,就變成說好像他對裴友小姐很有興趣啊。我們現在是可以是這樣子嗎?被罵的人要出來致親,指控別人可以隨便講話,然後又牽涉到國安,結果政府無所謂。"},{"start":371.636,"end":393.299,"text":"這不是我們政府的態度吧,院長。我希望文化部跟其他單位已經在調查了,如果會診出來以後,清楚地向大家報告有沒有這件事。我也很希望沒有這樣的事情,表示我們的媒體自律非常完善的。如果沒有為什麼民進黨立委可以去指控人家,為什麼那時候陸委會說卻有歧視,對不對?而且院長,今天"},{"start":394.554,"end":414.186,"text":"委會副主委講說找不到消息來源明明自由時報就有報導一個資深媒體人啊不能叫自由時報把資深媒體人講出來是誰嗎他一定會說不好意思我不提供消息來源問題是牽涉國安何等重要啊你媒體也有社會責任為了國安你不能夠交出消息來源嗎所以只是要不要交的問題嘛"},{"start":415.489,"end":427.314,"text":"所以院長拿出道德勇氣給國內一個交代不要讓大家都好像變成跟唐僧一樣好不好我再進一步瞭解什麼時候可以給大家答案瞭解之後馬上跟委員報告要瞭解多久"},{"start":429.644,"end":456.705,"text":"會盡快了解,因為這個不是很難的事情。對嘛,不是,一個禮拜可不可以?因為這個事情社會動盪啦,我們希望國家可以和諧。如果他後面沒有覺得,如果沒有很牽扯複雜的情節的話,那一個禮拜應該是足以了解的事情。一點都不複雜啊。對,如果沒有的話,一個禮拜可以清楚。一個禮拜告訴大家這個事情到底是真的、假的,然後如果是假的,那陸委會說有,那為什麼亂講,然後相關的責任。查清楚,我們台灣不要變成這樣,一直在國內找敵人。"},{"start":458.707,"end":475.383,"text":"總統院長是要團結臺灣,不是對立臺灣。好不好,我們都與人為善,好不好,不要這樣吵敵人。因為教文組,我要跟院長討論幾個教育的議題。其實我在教育文化我就關心幾個議題,比如說108課綱。"},{"start":478.291,"end":507.46,"text":"比如說校園安全還有雙語教育或是母語教育推廣等等很多教育議題我都會推廣我都非常關心還有高齡教育等等但是因為今天也沒有太多時間我就抓兩個議題跟院長討論那有的跟部長也講過但是因為有些事情我覺得需要讓院長知道所以今天特別來講我先引用諾貝爾經濟學獎得主海耶克通往奴役之路這本書裡面有一句話他說通往地獄的路都是由善意鋪陳的這是他講的"},{"start":508.376,"end":525.272,"text":"那我當然知道很多教育政策大家都是出於善意我們不希望說這個善意呢讓我們的新興學子們呢通往地獄如果用白話文講就是有的時候理想很豐滿現實很骨感特別我覺得這句話很適用在108課綱上面"},{"start":527.89,"end":539.422,"text":"這是108課綱所期待的學生樣態,要自主行動、社會參與、溝通互動。然後後面又列了非常多像他的分項的素養。那院長您認同這108課綱所期待的學生樣態嗎?應該是認同吧?"},{"start":542.998,"end":571.499,"text":"就像委員說的他希望是大家在自己的學習歷程清楚而且能夠展現自己的特色而且能夠被激發出潛力原意當然是這樣子理想理想但是理想要把它落實但是這幾年108課綱自從實施以來每一年專家學者老師學生都提出各項各樣的檢討我沒有看到教育部有根據實施的落差理想與現實落差有做任何調整所以今天特別來跟院長講"},{"start":572.731,"end":596.518,"text":"如果說大家認同說這需要調整的話應該要拿出行動力出來而不是說每一年都在檢討一樣的事情像我今天待會要講的東西去年也有人講過前年也有人講過但是從來沒有人去做調整那118課綱現在就要訂定了嘛所以在訂定118課綱的時候有沒有可能把108課綱大家覺得比較有缺失部分做一些整理我先來簡述一下108課綱問題"},{"start":598.151,"end":613.888,"text":"很多老師,很多老師跟我講說,他說因為現在義馬克剛就是把必修課減少變成要選修課嘛,大概減少四分之一的必修課。所以,老師必須要去準備選修課。第一個壓力變大,但是工作時數沒有減少。第二,很多學生"},{"start":615.188,"end":635.76,"text":"在參加選修課的時候他要繳的報告不是他不是考試他繳一個類似碩士的那種田野調查的報告就叫研究問題研究方法然後最後要有結論的那個必須要大學碩士可能才有基本類似素養所做出來的東西所以學生壓力也變得非常大那老師也要花非常多時間去改那些報告所以"},{"start":638.26,"end":656.272,"text":"時間都會影響到他的教學品質這個是第一件事情第二件事情學校說忽然間印巴克剛增加了非常多東西例如說學習歷程檔案但是學校並沒有得到相對應行政的support所以有很多學校對於學習歷程檔案的支持是比較少的"},{"start":657.563,"end":685.897,"text":"再來就是我看學生的意見,因為學生還是實際上接受這個課綱的人。我跟院長推薦一個單位叫做EDIS,這個單位有幾位是大學生,有台大的、政治系的,還有一些高中生,他們每一年都會針對108課綱做出檢討,而且他們的檢討是有憑有據,他們是發問卷,問卷對象是一千多份。他們在做這個課綱的研討會的時候還會邀請教育部的官員來,"},{"start":687.113,"end":713.278,"text":"但每一次加入官員來聽完他們的建議之後修改的是少之又少我就舉一個例子因為今天時間不多我就舉一項學習歷程檔案這是他們做的調查學習歷程檔案超過50%的學生他覺得需要有校園的系統來支持為什麼因為學習歷程檔案其實還是需要一些專業那學習歷程檔案有哪些問題我們可以來看一下比如說第一個"},{"start":714.418,"end":715.56,"text":"這第一件事情。第二件事情"},{"start":732.575,"end":751.334,"text":"學習歷程檔案強調是說要學生去做自我的探索。對吧?自我的探索。但是你覺得他們有這樣探索到嗎?有的是叫先設建再劃拔啦。從小家長叫他學醫。所以他在學習歷程檔案的時候全部都往醫學院的方向去寫這個學習歷程檔案。"},{"start":752.435,"end":763.845,"text":"有的是探索到高二高三之後忽然發現說他的志趣跟他過去探索都不一樣可是完了他過去的學習立定檔案做的都是另外一個方向產生極大的焦慮"},{"start":765.455,"end":791,"text":"所以這個學習電子檔案,然後再來更不要講學習電子檔案很多人都外包啦。網路上一查很多都是在外面很多補習班在幫人家做學習電子檔案。所以這個問題很嚴重。然後學生我們剛剛看了他們在做歷程檔案、學習電子檔案的時候常常有問題要問老師、同學或者是專家,不知道問誰啊,也產生很大的焦慮。這都是學生的意見。我剛剛把我所知道的有老師的反應,"},{"start":792.236,"end":815.807,"text":"學生的反應還有更不要講因為必修課已經減少四分之一所以現在要讀那個專業科目的時候很多東西都很粗糙很粗略沒有辦法讀到細節例如說讀歷史現在歷史很多都是很簡單沒有故事性沒有脈絡學生就必須去記那個年份跟發生的事情失去了對整個歷史的興趣歷史就是要見古知今嘛"},{"start":816.127,"end":833.564,"text":"他有一個脈絡嘛有環境的影響或細節的影響人事物的影響有的時候就沒有辦法讀得那麼有趣所以他這個108課上是有很多問題的我知道現在也沒有很多時間讓院長部長回答我現在只是希望一件事情就是能不能夠召開一個真的認真召開一個"},{"start":834.591,"end":862.867,"text":"委員會或者什麼會議,你把所有很多人的意見把他納進來,然後真的來做一個檢討,然後這些檢討報告當然可以逐步的去修改,或者是118課綱的時候可以來一個比較針對118課綱所衍生的問題做一個調整,不知道院長跟部長能不能做到。謝謝委員,這個建議是必定會做的,從檢討過去到策略未來。現在都沒在做院長。"},{"start":865.17,"end":883.587,"text":"也知道我們四個升學的管道不然是繁星計畫、申請入學、申請分發或是分科分發或者是這個特殊選材都有相當的人數經過這樣的管道下去他除了學測之外有高中在校的成績有學習過程還有一些特殊的選材過程還有一些就是加上學測"},{"start":884.708,"end":888.112,"text":"我覺得你回答好像沒有聽懂我講,你講的只是分發就是考照部分,我講的是學習的部分。"},{"start":904.432,"end":921.047,"text":"我講的是108課剛學習的公文報告對我現在就是說特別來總諮詢那麼重要時間來講我是希望說因為每一年大家都在講一樣的事情可是我們不曾看到有調整希望說大家很認真的針對這些事情做一個調整去回應"},{"start":922.429,"end":923.769,"text":"社會或學界的需求。"}]}},{"id":"154438","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154438","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a15473b59e34ffe54c95b2c12d918673f79f1bad52d3b6009b7430f816805a879aa765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"15:33:32 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15:49:30","影片長度":"00:15:58","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T15:33:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T15:49:30+08:00","duration":958,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":321,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（15時33分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：院長好。本席今天要跟你探討幾個議題，第一個是有關於博愛座的問題，這些年來，大眾運輸系統上的博愛座衝突感覺好像是越演越烈，我們知道今天早上又有一則新聞。本席檢視了一下，其中一個原因是網路平臺不斷出現一些言語衝突、肢體衝突等文字，還包括一些照片跟側錄短片的上傳，這中間有很大比例是年長者斥責或拉扯坐在博愛座上比較年輕的朋友，因而普遍出現年輕人不滿長者的反彈聲音。現在我們一起來看光是6月份這段時間發生的一些畫面。","（播放影片）"],["林委員倩綺：這個是6月18號在北捷發生的，另外是6月19號在基隆的505公車，還有6月29號也就是今天我們從新聞看到高捷發生的事情。這些博愛座的爭議，感覺好像政府聽到了，因為衛福部在6月28號預告修正身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條，要把博愛座改名為優先席，交通部也表示要配合，但是將博愛座改成優先席，整個衝突就會改善嗎？您的看法如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，委員，改名也許只是一個讓社會更重視、討論這個問題的開始而已，事實上要完全改善這個現象應該不是那麼快，倒是利用這樣一個改名的討論，讓大家瞭解博愛座真正的意義是什麼，它是博愛座或者是優先座還是我要坐？這個很嚴重，如果大家認為是我要坐，那衝突就會很大。它應該是照顧需要的人，但是我們如何去判斷坐在這個位置上的人是需要的？這個部分的判斷也許……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝院長的說明，至少我們提醒大家要針對這個議題來做一些討論。接下來是不是可以請教育部跟文化部我們一起來討論一下這個議題？"],["主席：請教育部及文化部備詢。"],["林委員倩綺：現在教育部似乎要將博愛座改名成優先座，感覺好像是日本的用詞，我們如果回溯英文的本詞priority seats 來避免爭議，但是這樣成效是不是馬上就會立竿見影呢？本席認為，問題不在法條跟名稱的定義，看起來好像是衛福部、交通部的問題，但我認為教育部跟文化部責無旁貸，教育部有沒有可能在現階段針對整個社會的情緒教育、倫理教育、道德教育、品德教育多一點著墨？文化部有沒有可能在這樣子的概念上宣導？我們可不可以本諸善意來對社會做相關的宣導？是不是可以在這裡面有更多的一些可能性，讓這樣一個似乎本來本於善意的座位，能夠透過兩個部會，讓它能夠有更積極而且更本諸本質的一個可能性？可不可以用簡短的30秒鐘回答？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指正，我非常同意委員剛才所提的老吾老以及人之老、幼吾幼以及人之幼，事實上，這就是在許多學校教育裡面，從生活教育、情緒教育、情感教育、倫理教育，我們一直在強調的。事實上，怎麼樣讓學生、青少年包括各個不同年齡階層有更多的同理心能夠設身處地，剛才院長也特別提到很多時候其實老人不一定就是老，他可能身體很健康，年輕人可能因為工作疲累，他也需要有一些優先席，能夠更多的設身處地，我覺得這是一個很好的……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝部長，所以針對這個部分，本席認為教育部應該可以有一些著力，不曉得文化部有什麼看法？"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員提出這個問題，我來之後一直覺得文化不只是文化產業，其實我覺得最重要的文化是生活，您剛剛談的就是生活。我上任之後這短短的一個月，我跟很多部會包括環境部一起參加活動，就是要推動在生活上的一些倫理還有文化。的確……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝部長，我們聽到您很多的言論，我們相信有很大的專業，是不是也可以透過文化部的一些職掌，讓這樣子的文化透過一些管道，讓社會大眾開始正視這樣子的概念？我想文化部應該是有機會做得到吧！"],["李部長遠：是。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝兩位部長。接下來，因為今天院長在這邊，本席要為私立學校做一些請命，當然這是針對未來的一個政策，在這邊我提出幾點，院長可以先看PPT。本席在私立院校教書二十幾年，非常瞭解私立院校老師跟學生的一些需求，這幾年碰到私校很多的問題。私校的退場以及私校老師的權益，我想現在來處理是刻不容緩，所以本席在這邊要簡單地敘述幾件事情，這個部分本席也有跟部長做了一些溝通，在此也要讓院長瞭解，關於部分私立學校老師在機緣巧合的狀況下，面臨想要轉校、跳槽，可是會被學校索取違約金或賠償金，有的時候因為年資的長短，金額會非常大。這個部分教育部之前有談到有關於契約的問題，是不是可以請院長這邊針對這個部分做更深入一點的瞭解？","第二個部分，院長應該也知道今年公教在薪資的部分調了4%，但是今年在6月份，全國教師公會也提出來，有一些私立學校針對這個部分，好像沒有依照規定比照跟調整，是不是可以請教育部清查？院長是不是可以幫我們多瞭解跟注意？","第三個部分是確實碰到的問題，在棲蘭山莊有一個軍公教的優惠，但是它規定教師一定要是公立學校，這個感覺上很不合理，一個優惠的公告卻造成公私立老師被大小眼對待，這又是政府單位的，所以有點感覺政府認同並帶頭示範公立學校老師才能夠被禮遇，私立學校老師不在此列，我們也進行溝通，是不是請院長這邊也可以幫我們回應一下這個狀況？","最後，面對私立學校少子化的壓力，許多老師必須要扛起業績，但是現在很多私校被輔導，然後被退了，然後又被輔了就倒，常常被定義說它該倒就要讓它倒。我是覺得政府是不是應該有多一點的同理心，對於有一些具特色、體質很好的私校，期望它的校友、團體、個人都有機會來救這個學校？但是有一些好意竟然會被視為為禿鷹來開後門，這個部分本席也很不瞭解。是不是可以有機會透過透明、公開的公告徵求，來讓一些私校、真的好的私校、不是因為很奇怪的原因要倒的私校能夠持續？因為每一個重要的私校或公立學校，它都可能是一個地方很重要的文化空間，它有一些社會功能。這樣一個具有社會功能的文化空間，我們其實應該共同來支持，而且它也很重要的是一個產業推動的中心，所以請院長正視這一點。這其中因為私校要退場，被轉學的學生常常都會因此結束了學業而沒有畢業。這個部分是不是也可以請院長瞭解一下學生的狀況？","諸如此類其實好多細節，真的目前私校的問題是跟時間在賽跑，我很希望教育部能夠儘速：第一個，召開全國性的會議，針對現在的高教也好、整個的教育，聽取大家的意見；第二個，私校經常先倒的都是原鄉跟偏鄉，是不是能夠進入原鄉跟偏鄉去做相關的會議跟宣導？不會說大家在不知情的情況下，必須要面對私校倒閉的許多問題，這點是不是可以聽聽院長的看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。首先，我們在去年私立大專院校教師約聘的注意事項裡面，很明白地載明了離職預告期間跟離職違約金要符合一般法律的規定，而且不能喪失比例原則，這個是一個原則性的規定。我們希望……公立學校的公教人員調薪，是政府基於對公教人員感恩以及人民希望他提高服務品質，同樣我們也希望私立的企業、私立的學校也能夠有同樣的心情，衡量自己的能力、實力，對這些從業人員也同樣做同工同酬的考慮，這樣在社會的公平性來看是比較衡平的。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝院長，本席以上所提的幾個問題，是不是可以請主管機關，本於一個善意跟同理的心情來考量教師、學生還有這些團體的心境，然後更積極地處理跟作為？好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。接下來跟這個有一點關係的是，因為現在學校可能有少子女化的狀況，所以我們有很多有關於國際生或者是國際勞工的相關計畫。我知道2030年教育部打算收21萬的國際學生，要投入52億元。本席在這邊要請命，是不是可以將這52億元的國際生，在名額的部分做一個考量，或許至少減半，能夠讓原住民還有新住民還有相對弱勢的學子，在這裡面的資源能夠有多一點分配，因為這件事情未來會產生社會重組、衝突或資源的搶食跟失衡，相關部會都應該要檢視。當然在教育文化上，本席想要為臺灣的學生請命，是不是相關的資源能夠至少減半，留一些給在臺灣本席剛才所提到的團體？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們非常清楚臺灣的教育資源當然是優先用來照顧我們自己本地的青少年、新世代的年輕人及學生，包含原住民學生的……"],["林委員倩綺：是的，謝謝部長，您其實在我先前提到原住民在高科技這一塊，部裡面現在也有一些回應，我們目前在試做，我相信這樣推動要大家一起來努力。至於國際生這個部分，剛才本席所講的未來社會的重組還有整個社會結構上的問題，我想可能要從未來再思考回來我們臺灣目前教育相關的資源，然後把整條連起來，這需要再做縝密一點的思考。本席建議再思考以及是不是將相關的資源能夠留下來給臺灣的學生。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告一句話，我們這是向國際爭取好的人才，其實我們對國內有私校補助，對原住民、對弱勢，我們還有其他的補助，而且我們現在正研擬青年海外的圓夢基金，這是直接給我們國內的青年朋友們能夠到國外去吸取更好的知識。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝院長還有部長，重點就是不要忘了臺灣還有很多學生需要我們更多的教育資源，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：會的。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來，這是老調重提了，我想這是一件大家都有共識的事情，本席在會期一開始也提到了，關於運動發展部的問題，我想運動發展部這個共識也是賴總統的一個政策，我們要設立運動發展部，也希望體育署或許在本質上、本體上能夠升格。這個運動發展部其實可以處理幾個問題，剛才也有其他委員談到單項協會相關的弊端讓很多選手都受到委屈，這點本席有非常深刻的研究跟體悟。體育署的升格，很重要的一點就是針對單項協會更積極的作為，再來是針對運動整體，不管是產業也好，在全面推動上應該有更積極的作為。最重要就是我們希望有足夠的人力跟足夠的預算來推動，讓所有單項協會的運作達到正軌，對於運動發展的推動能夠更積極作為，不知道院長對這部分的看法為何？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然我們過去國民體育法的改變，已經就單項協會的結構做了初步調整，但我知道還有一些問題存在，我們希望未來體育署升格之後，體育部有更大的組織能力、有更大的一些政策指導，讓各單項協會朝更健全的方向發展。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝院長，所以最重要就是本諸初衷，不要再讓選手受到委屈，讓全民運動能夠正常發展，也謝謝鄭部長。","最後是不是可以請一下文化部長？謝謝。不知道院長知不知道本席是原住民？所以我對於原住民的相關事務都非常重視。"],["卓院長榮泰：瞭解。"],["林委員倩綺：現在在原住民部分要成立原住民的國家級表演藝術團隊，所謂的國家級，本席再跟您提醒一下，因為本席也是表演藝術的專業，所以先前也有跟文化部來做相關的討論。希望文化部能承諾在原住民的表演藝術上，第一，必須要達到所謂的國家級；第二，不要將所有原住民的事務都丟回給所謂的原住民相關單位。不知道是不是可以承諾這兩點？"],["李部長遠：這沒有問題，因為這次在金曲獎，你可以看到原住民多元族群唱的歌、他們本來的天賦，實在是能夠代表我們臺灣文化中很重要的一部分。除了原民會之外，我覺得我們文化部當然也可以做一點事情。"],["林委員倩綺：是的，謝謝院長、謝謝部長，對於原住民的事務還有整體的政策推動，大家一起來，加油！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教。"],["委員林倩綺書面補充資料：","案由：本院林委員倩綺，為釐清基隆旭丘指揮所修復疑義，該歷史建築之修復執行面有必要做出全面檢討，特向文化部提出書面質詢。","說明：","一、基隆旭丘指揮所，在過去林右昌前市長任內獲得非常多的硬體補助，但現在對於指揮所的補助非常之微小，該指揮所需如何活化？此問題本席請文化部長一同面對，文化議題不應當作政治炒作的媒介，如何做出決斷，請部長在後續針對此案做出正確決策。後續進度請文化部一個月內以書面報告方式回覆。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第13號的葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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題。"},{"start":170.309,"end":183.859,"text":"現在似乎要將這個優先座,博愛座改名成優先座,感覺好像是日本的用詞。那我們如果回溯英文的本詞Priority Seats來避免爭議,但是這是不是成效就會馬上立竿見影呢?"},{"start":185.18,"end":206.818,"text":"本席認為問題有的時候不是在法條跟名稱的定義,看起來好像是衛福部、交通部的問題。本席認為教育部跟文化部責無旁貸。我們教育部有沒有可能在現階段這樣整個社會的情緒教育還有倫理教育、道德教育、品德教育多一點著墨。"},{"start":207.418,"end":225.528,"text":"那文化部有沒有可能在這樣子概念上的宣導我們可不可以本朱善意來對社會做相關的這個宣導是不是可以在這個裡面有更多的一些可能性讓這樣一個似乎本來本於善意的這樣子一個座位"},{"start":226.448,"end":247.094,"text":"能夠透過兩個大會能夠有比較更積極而且更本朱本質的一個可能性那可不可以請用簡短的30秒鐘回答謝謝委員的指正我想我非常同意委員剛才所提的老屋老以及人之老 幼屋幼以及人之幼這事實上就是我們在"},{"start":247.654,"end":247.914,"text":"謝謝部長。是的。"},{"start":276.237,"end":283.659,"text":"謝謝委員提出這個問題因為我來之後我一直覺得文化不只是文化產業其實我覺得最重要的文化是生活那您剛剛談到的就是生活那我來之後這個短短一個月我會跟很多部會包括"},{"start":301.885,"end":302.105,"text":"謝謝兩位部長。"},{"start":329.265,"end":336.836,"text":"接下來因為今天院長在這邊本席有一些為私立學校做的一些請命"},{"start":338.973,"end":363.466,"text":"當然這個是一個針對未來的一個政策。但是我這邊有幾點,院長可以先看PPT。本席現在在私立院校教書20幾年,那非常了解私立院校老師跟學生的一些需求。所以這幾年呢,碰到私校的很多問題。那私校的退場以及私校老師的權益,我想現在來處理是刻不容緩。"},{"start":364.486,"end":386.783,"text":"所以本席在這邊要簡單的敘述幾件事情那這個部分本席也有跟這個部長這邊做了一些溝通所以這邊也是讓這個院長這邊來了解關於部分私立學校的老師在經驗巧合的這個狀況下面臨想要轉校跳槽可是會被學校索取違約金或賠償金有的時候因為年資的長短那個金額會非常大這個部分"},{"start":390.465,"end":405.822,"text":"教育部之前有談到有關於契約的這個問題那是不是可以請院長這邊來針對這個部分做更深入一點的這個瞭解那第二個部分是今年院長應該也知道公教在這個薪資的部分調了4%"},{"start":406.923,"end":434.629,"text":"但是今年在6月份那個全國教師公會他也提出來有一些私立學校針對這個部分好像沒有依照規定這邊來做比照跟調整是不是可以請教育部這邊也做一個清查那也請院長這邊是不是可以幫我們多了解跟注意那第三個部分這個是確實所碰到的問題那個在這個西蘭山莊有一個軍公教的優惠但是他規定這個教師一定要是公立學校"},{"start":435.069,"end":461.922,"text":"那這個感覺上很不合理一個優惠的公告卻造成公私立老師的一個被大小眼的對待那這又是政府單位的所以有點感覺政府認同並帶頭示範公立學校老師才能夠被理喻私立學校老師不在此列那這個我們也進行溝通是不是請院長這邊也可以幫我們這個回應一下這一個狀況那另外最後面對這個私立學校少子化的壓力那許多老師必須要扛起業績"},{"start":463.345,"end":483.747,"text":"但是現在很多私校被扶倒然後被退了又被扶了就倒那常常被定義說他該倒就要讓他倒我是覺得是不是政府應該有多一點的同理心那有一些特色體質很好的私校期望他的校友團體個人都有機會來救這個學校但是"},{"start":484.813,"end":484.833,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":504.104,"end":523.831,"text":"﹗"},{"start":523.991,"end":539.3,"text":"施校要退場被轉學的學生常常都會因此而就結束了學業而沒有畢業所以這個部分是不是也可以請院長瞭解一下在這個部分學生的狀況"},{"start":540.501,"end":565.83,"text":"所以諸如此類其實好多細節那真的目前私校的問題是跟時間在賽跑然後很希望教育部能夠盡速第一個召開全國性的會議針對現在的高教也好整個的教育聽取大家的意見第二個那私校經常宣導的都是原鄉跟偏鄉那是不是能夠進入原鄉跟偏鄉去做相關的這個會議跟宣導"},{"start":576.699,"end":591.593,"text":"首先我們在去年私立大山院校教師約聘的這個注意事項裡面就很明白的宰明了離職預告期間跟離職違約金要符合一般法律的規定而且不能喪失他的比例原則"},{"start":592.293,"end":619.056,"text":"那這個是一個原則性的規定所以我們希望說當公立的學校公教人員在調薪的時候這是政府基於對公教人員的一個感恩以及人民希望他提高服務的品質同樣我們也希望私立的企業私立的學校也能夠有同樣的心情衡量自己的能力實力對這些從業的人員也做同樣的同工同酬的考慮這樣會在社會的公平性來看是比較橫貧的"},{"start":621.078,"end":638.087,"text":"謝謝院長,所以本席以上所提的幾個問題是不是可以請這個主管機關等於一個善意跟同理的心情來考量教師學生還有這些團體的一個心境,然後更積極的一個處理跟作為,好嗎?好的。"},{"start":638.717,"end":662.976,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來剛這個有一點關係的是因為現在學校可能有因為少子化的這個少子女化的狀況所以我們有很多這個有關於國際生或者是國際勞工的一個相關計畫那本席在這邊知道2030年那教育部打算收21萬的國際學生那要投入52億元那本席在這邊有個請命是不是可以將這52億元"},{"start":665.558,"end":665.658,"text":"﹚林倩綺"},{"start":689.318,"end":698.961,"text":"本席想要為臺灣的學生請命所以是不是相關的這個資源能夠至少減半留一些在臺灣的本席剛才所提到的團體"},{"start":701.967,"end":726.076,"text":"跟委員報告,是我們非常清楚臺灣的教育資源當然是優先用來照顧我們自己本地的這個青少年新世代的年輕人這些學生,包含原住民學生的一部分。是的,謝謝部長,您其實在我先前提到原住民在高科技這一塊,那部裡面現在也有一些回應,那我們目前在試做,我相信這樣的推動大概要大家一起來努力,那至於這個國際生這個部分,"},{"start":727.517,"end":727.977,"text":"謝謝委員提醒。跟委員報告一句話。"},{"start":751.783,"end":753.505,"text":"謝謝院長還有部長那重點就是不要忘了臺灣還有很多的學生需要我們更多的教育資源"},{"start":779.128,"end":800.917,"text":"老吊重提了,我想這是一件大家都有共識的事情。本席在上個會期也提到了關於運動發展部的問題。我想這個共識也是賴總統的一個政策。我們要把運動發展部給設立,體育署也希望他或許在這個本質上"},{"start":801.417,"end":801.497,"text":"﹚林倩綺"},{"start":827.876,"end":827.896,"text":"當然這個"},{"start":852.213,"end":869.94,"text":"我們過去國民體育法的一個改變已經就單項的結構做了初步的調整但我知道還有一些問題存在我們希望未來體育署升格之後體育部有更大的組織能力有更大的一些政策的指導能夠將這個各單項協會朝更健全的發展方向"},{"start":873.901,"end":884.558,"text":"謝謝院長。所以最重要就是本株初衷,那不要再讓選手受到委屈,然後讓全民運動能夠正常發展。謝謝部長。那最後是不是可以請一下這個文化部長。"},{"start":888.853,"end":908.26,"text":"謝謝。不知道這個院長知不知道本席是原住民,所以我對原住民的相關事務都非常的重視。所以現在在原住民這個部分要成立這個原住民的表演藝術的國家級的表演藝術團隊。那這所謂國家級,本席這邊再跟您提醒一下,因為本席也是表演藝術的專業。"},{"start":909.58,"end":928.685,"text":"所以在先前也有跟這個文化部這邊來做相關的這個討論所以是不是文化部希望您能夠承諾在原住民的表演藝術第一必須要達到所謂的國家級第二不要將所有原住民的事物都丟回給所謂的原住民的相關單位不知道是不是可以承諾這兩點"},{"start":949.976,"end":950.476,"text":"謝謝林倩綺"}]}},{"id":"154437","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154437","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/67413232838a1547bb5b1cc7073289b92c12d918673f79f1bad52d3b6009b74302c9c9ea05d6a3785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"15:17:29 - 15:33:10","影片長度":"00:15:41","會議時間":"2024-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-02","start_time":"2024-07-02T15:17:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-02T15:33:10+08:00","duration":941,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","id":"院會-11-1-20","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":261,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（15時17分）謝謝主席，我想請一下卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長好。早上在經濟組質詢的時候你有特別提到，新竹市確實是個很適合發展AI生態園區的首選之地，我在想說，當新竹要發展AI生態園區，或者是IC設計園區，甚至於我跟竹科管理局王局長也曾經聊過，他也覺得新竹這邊其實也很適合成立半導體生態鏈園區。這個部分其實就是，當科學園區在為台積電找土地的時候，都沒有想到協力廠商也有土地上的需求，所以導致整個大新竹地區有很多農地都變成了違建工廠這樣的一個情況。賴政府在推動桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的時候，我們確實很希望能夠一併解決剛剛提到的這些問題。","我在這邊也特別提到，新竹市有一個竹科X二期的都市計畫，早上的時候院長有特別提到，這是國科會正在整合的部分。我想請教一下院長，目前這個部分進度如何？新竹市政府主張的這個竹科X二期的部分、都市計畫的部分，有沒有可能納入桃竹苗大矽谷計畫當中？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們現在正在跟新竹市政府合作，目前我們的X基地第一棟的建築已經將近完工，看起來招商的狀況非常地好，所以市政府也有信心，如果我們要支持市政府來進行X計畫第二期的話，我們提出來，這在行政院已經通過，是一個重大產業發展的方案……"],["鄭委員正鈐：是國家重大建設計畫嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這邊我要特別提到的部分就是，目前國科會所涵蓋的範圍，跟市政府希望的範圍有相當大的出入，所以我們希望國科會能夠儘速跟市政府做更進一步的溝通，能夠滿足地方人士的需求，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們會按照產業需求來協助市政府做這個事。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝主委。接下來我再問一下院長，有關竹竹苗地區高中的擴增班計畫，你知道這個項目嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["鄭委員正鈐：鄭部長可以支援一下。在今年1月8號，也就是選前一個禮拜的時候，當時的行政院副院長鄭文燦特別到了竹科實驗高中，針對大新竹地區高級中等學校擴增班級數的政策去做了一個說明，當時包括楊文科縣長、高虹安市長、鍾東錦縣長還有竹北市的鄭朝方市長都到了現場，表示這個事情確實大家都非常的關注，且竹竹苗的五位立委全數到齊，在選前一個禮拜的時候大家都集中到了竹科實中來針對這個部分。我想問一下，目前行政院對於這個計畫執行到什麼程度？因為1月15號之後，選後其實各地方政府都趕快把資料送上去，送到教育部之後它也提到行政院這裡，隔了這麼多個月之後，行政院不知道目前對於這項政策是不是要如實如期的去落實？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，謝謝委員關心我們竹科學生人口數的增加，我們今年在113學年度9月已經核定國立的學校先增加5班，也就是說國立科學實中增加2班，然後新竹高工1班、竹南高中1班……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，113年度國立高中要增班的部分是第一步，除了這個部分，各地方政府都提出了很多的需求，新竹市這邊提到，113年學年度到116學年度至少要增加49班，對於這個部分教育部怎麼回應？到目前為止，行政院的態度還沒有很清楚出來，這個部分光靠教育部也許沒有辦法解決當地的需求，所以我們希望行政院長能夠大力支持這個在今年1月8號，當時的行政院副院長所開出來的支票，在選前開這樣的支票，顯然就是知道地方有多麼大的需求。"],["卓院長榮泰：除了教育部在目前的業務上之外，國科會也在評估，就實驗中學跟完全中學來提出一個增建校舍的新的計畫，這個部分我想我們會按照人口成長跟地區，考量是不是用一個專案的經費來挹注，這個部分請國科會提出詳細的說明，配合教育部的政策。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以到時候可以有一個專案的預算補助，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：希望朝這個方向去做。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這就是我們現在地方上非常需要的一個部分，也希望院長在這個部分能夠大力去支持，因為針對竹竹苗地區高中擴校增班的相關問題其實非常的嚴峻，我們看到整個人口分佈圖中所有幼兒的相關比例，新竹市跟新竹縣是全國最高的，而且比全國平均值多了四成到五成，所以這個問題在接下來幾年都會陸續發生，希望院長能夠兌現你剛剛特別提到說要給專案補助的這件事情，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：國科會提出評估，跟教育部的政策來配合。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝院長。接下來我想問一下，之前也有委員提到有關於短期營隊的負責人，因為之前確實在新竹地方發生了這樣的事情，一個短期營隊的負責人性侵而且被判刑了，4月份被判刑確定，他也許會再上訴，可是這個事情造成地方很大的恐慌，恐慌的點在哪裡？因為他繼續招生。我想問一下院長，對於這樣的短期營隊，我們是不是可以立法來進行管理？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在對於這種不當的行為，我們都要列管註記這些不當行為人，讓他們沒有辦法再從事類似的工作，對其他的人員或小孩造成侵害，我們會加重列管註記的方式。"],["鄭委員正鈐：除了列管登記之外，本席在這邊主張，我們對於短期營隊的部分是不是可以採取報備制，讓家長安心？否則不曉得他們參加的營隊到底會是什麼樣子的營隊。"],["卓院長榮泰：要不要答復一下現在的方式是不是夠嚴謹？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想跟委員報告，確實委員所提的這個，在學校裡面有很多短期寒暑假的營隊，事實上都要經過地方縣市教育局的報備、核准，但是屬於民間自己招攬的這個部分……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，所以這是短期嘛！所以我在想說，對於家長來講，其實他們所參加的營隊，不一定都是目前的法規可以管得到的補習班……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們可以……"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對這些短期營隊，我們是不是可以修法，對於這些兒少有更多的保障？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，這我們來努力。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK喔？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟地方政府……"],["鄭委員正鈐：另外，對於澳洲的兒少工作證照制度，我想也是可以考慮，因為現在有很多民團也在推這個制度，我們希望政府能夠扮演更積極的角色，好不好？OK。","接下來我想請教國科會的吳主委。之前你在清華大學擔任副校長的時候，曾經為海峽研究院進行接待，當時你在回應委員質詢的時候，你有提到說你很委屈嘛，對不對？你可不可以稍微簡單做個說明？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當時我算是奉命接待，也只是接待，因為那個不是我主管的業務，所以對學校來講……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你去接待之後，就被打成了一個中共在臺的代理人，被扣了一個這樣的紅帽子。說實話，我也覺得你很委屈，所以我也幫你說話，在上一屆當中，因為清大被扣紅帽子這個事情，也就是你被扣紅帽子這個事情，我跟當時的行政院長蘇貞昌有一個非常不愉快的對話，當我在質詢這樣的事情的時候，他不斷地說我很吵，說我一堆亂七八糟的說法都出來了，然後吵得很兇，其實是為了你，你是現在我們的一個閣員。我想特別強調一個點，其實這個部分也看得出來，我們在做國會改革的時候，是有一些合理性跟正當性的。我想問一下院長，對於在備詢的時候，不斷地質疑質詢的人說「你很吵」，然後講一些亂七八糟的話，你覺得這樣子適當嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我說過，我再強調一次，我說質詢就像一面鏡子一樣，你所看到的我，就是我看到的你，所以我們很理性、冷靜地來討論事情，今天委員就能知道，有機會讓吳主委說明之後，就會知道當時的吳主委沒有任何值得我們去懷疑的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，你講的方式，其實我要跟你講一下，當我們在質詢前院長蘇貞昌的時候，他跟你的反應是完全不一樣的，他就開始大呼小叫，就開始講一些亂七八糟的事情，很多委員都有類似的經驗。我覺得你也很理性，我們在做這樣的對話，我只是要特別強調，當時我為了現在的國科會主委，曾經跟前院長發生一個相當嚴重的爭執，就是因為我也覺得你們被抹紅，所以我們希望在所有的國會改革過程當中能夠更順暢。","接下來我想再問國科會吳主委，你特別提到了主權AI這件事情，最近其實大家都非常的關心，因為半導體是臺灣的護國神山，也對臺灣的經濟有很大的貢獻，現在再加上AI，臺灣在AI的硬體設備當中，在第一波就踩上了全球AI的高速列車，對不對？您特別提到，臺灣需要建立主權AI，你可以把這個部分做一個簡單的說明跟描述嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我講主權AI的觀念，主要是因為如果我們要使用AI當作工具來解決我們國內各行各業的問題，甚至包含到政府機構的應用的話，第一，我們需要訓練自己的資料，從訓練這些AI的模型來解決問題，我們不希望使用到錯誤的訓練資料。第二，使用的時候，因為我們國內的資料非常寶貴，希望能夠建置在臺灣的資料中心，能夠用……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，那我們現在要怎麼做？政府要扮演什麼樣的角色？"],["吳主任委員誠文：政府會協助帶領國內產業，一起開發AI的這個資料中心、超級電腦，甚至是AI的應用服務系統，希望……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你講的這個部分我理解，不過我看到英國最近的Tortoise Media所做的全球AI評鑑，它只針對六十二個國家做評鑑，我本來想說臺灣應該非常驕傲，排名應該非常前面，可是我們看到在六十二個國家當中，臺灣只排名二十六名，其中政府角色的這個部分……政策環境排名第五十二名，五十二名不是全世界國家一起排，而是只針對六十二個國家在排，然後政府政策排名是第四十二名，商業投資排名是第三十三名，所以政府的角色在整個AI的發展過程當中，目前看起來似乎是走在企業之後，而不是帶領企業往前走。針對這個部分，主委或者院長要不要做個說明，接下來我們要怎麼做？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，這樣講不是很正確，我們的硬體部分，AI的半導體以及雲端設備的硬體是全世界第一……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是我剛剛講的AI應用系統的確是我們接下來必須要快速發展的，這個目前我們還有待努力。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委，你講這個部分我完全瞭解，就是臺灣的高科技製造業在全球很厲害，在這一波AI當中，我們踩到了全球的第一波，可是AI的發展並不是製造業的概念，其實我們可能更需要的是AI的一個服務業，所以這邊我要講的狀態是，政府是不是除了去蹭NVIDIA，到時候要做Taipei-1、Taipei-2的時候，有部分的算力要提供給政府使用，這時候要怎麼分配？要怎麼給學研機構使用？目前已經有規劃出來了嗎？另外，我覺得對於整個算力的部分，臺灣目前硬體很厲害，可是我們的算力在全球排名確實不是在前面，所以本席在這邊要特別針對臺灣算力的提升，要求院長跟主委大力支持，因為算力就是國力，對算力的投資絕對是值得的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們目前的方向的確是要發展我們自己的應用系統，以及自己的系統設計能力，倒不是在蹭NVIDIA，因為他們也需要我們，而我們自己也要發展我們自己的系統。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，後續請主委到本席辦公室，針對相關部分作更詳細的說明，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長備詢，謝謝。","接下來登記第11號蘇巧慧委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員蘇巧慧書面質詢：","臺灣擁有多元族群與文化，語言種類極其豐富，目前臺灣人民所使用的聽覺語言，主要分屬南島語系和漢藏語系中的漢語兩大類，而其中臺灣的漢語系統主要為臺灣華語、臺灣台語、臺灣客語、馬祖語（閩東語）等，且各類語種也依其族群及區域不同而發展出不同的語言腔調。保障語言之多樣性及實踐語言平權為政府重要的工作之一。以下針對語言相關議題，詢問部會及提出建議。","1.文化部李遠部長曾於六月接受質詢時提及，文化部規劃成立國家語言研究發展中心，專責推動台語、客語、原民語、馬祖閩東語等國家語言。請問相關部會目前進度如何？","2.過去原民會曾藉由設置社區服務中心來推廣各項族語，文化部預計以何種政策來保障台語、客語、原民語、馬祖閩東語等國家語言？","3.另，漢藏語系中的華語時常掉入「一種語言單屬一個國家；說什麼語就是什麼人」的錯誤脈絡中，且臺灣因於國際地位上的特殊性，臺灣有的各種語言亦無法在國際上保有自身的特殊性或能見度。針對此項議題，文化部是否有相對應的政策？","4.近年英國、澳洲、加拿大等國家的華裔開始藉著語言的恢復，尋找自己的身分認同，若此些國家也將華語視為國家語言之一，華語屬於各國之語言的事實現況更容易被世界其他國家理解並認同，臺灣也不易落入因語言相似而帶來的國家認同困境。文化部現行是否有與外交部或僑委會進行橫向聯繫，針對他國之華裔或華僑定期合作舉辦相關活動？","5.今年多位來自加拿大的華裔音樂人藉由JADE MUSIC FEST IN ASIA來到臺灣與當地的音樂人進行交流，並於活動中與臺灣、與有相同經歷的音樂人進行交流。臺灣於音樂市場中附有極大的自由，是諸多創作者發揮的空間。藉由音樂之交流來提升臺灣的軟實力、提升華語及臺灣各種語言在國際上的能見度及特殊性抑是保障語言平權的方式之一。文化部現行是否有舉辦相似活動或是針對此些活動進行相關補助？","藉由與他國之華裔、或族群互動，保障國家語言之多樣性，提升台灣文化於國際地位之能見度，建議相關部會可與他國中與臺灣具相似性背景之族群進行軟實力之交流。"],["主席：再接下來請登記第12號林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅明才","張智倫","涂權吉","沈發惠","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","謝龍介","謝衣鳯","林德福","吳秉叡","黃珊珊","丁學忠","呂玉玲","張宏陸","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","許智傑","林倩綺","葉元之"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00004","1136401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.32971875,"end":7.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.810343750000001,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.05346875,"end":18.559718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.559718750000002,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.610343750000002,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.64409375,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.762218750000002,"end":104.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.39846875,"end":112.26659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.78971875,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.73034375,"end":115.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.23221875,"end":119.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.60721875,"end":122.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.74221875,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.88096875000001,"end":125.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.78346875000001,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.95596875,"end":128.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.97284375,"end":129.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.71096875,"end":136.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.12784375,"end":155.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.61284375,"end":138.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.89284375,"end":155.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.17971875,"end":159.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.49159375000002,"end":157.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.46596875,"end":163.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.19096875000002,"end":169.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.41784375,"end":171.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.20659375000002,"end":172.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.83096875,"end":174.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.56471875,"end":186.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.75284375,"end":203.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.72909375,"end":214.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.27159375000002,"end":215.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.92971875,"end":230.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.67846875,"end":244.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.78159375,"end":246.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.49034375000002,"end":267.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.83721875000003,"end":271.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.02284375,"end":268.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.65971875,"end":272.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.87034375,"end":272.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.64659375,"end":312.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.40784375000004,"end":288.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.42471875,"end":288.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.44159375000004,"end":288.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.55159375,"end":320.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.89221875000004,"end":325.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.46534375000005,"end":327.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.96284375000005,"end":329.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.17346875000004,"end":331.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.79346875000005,"end":333.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.97034375000004,"end":345.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.31471875,"end":348.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.50409375000004,"end":349.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.05659375000005,"end":370.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":370.43721875,"end":371.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.12471875,"end":388.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.47659375,"end":391.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":392.39159375,"end":421.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.73721875,"end":429.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.17034375000003,"end":432.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.65534375000004,"end":438.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.93284375,"end":440.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.18159375000005,"end":442.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.33721875000003,"end":445.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.85159375,"end":447.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.55159375000005,"end":450.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":450.86346875000004,"end":455.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":455.85846875000004,"end":465.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.91596875000005,"end":466.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.55721875,"end":469.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.1390937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那個早上在經濟組那個諮詢的時候你有特別提到說新竹市其實確實是很適合發展AI生態園區的一個首選之地啦那我在想說當新竹要發展AI生態園區或者是IC設計園區甚至於說我跟竹科管理局王局長也曾經聊過他也覺得說其實新竹這邊其實也很適合成立半導體生態鏈園區"},{"start":46.747,"end":75.052,"text":"那這個部分其實就是說當科學園區在為台積電找土地的時候那其實都沒有想到協力廠商也有土地商的需求所以導致整個大新竹地區的時候有很多農地都變成了違建工廠這樣的一個情況所以說我們事實上希望說賴政府在推動桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的時候我們確實很希望能夠一併解決剛剛提到的這些問題"},{"start":76.112,"end":103.13,"text":"所以我在這邊也特別提到那個在新竹市這邊有一個竹科S2期的一個都市計畫那早上的時候院長有特別提到說這個部分是博客會這邊正在整合的部分我想請教一下院長目前這個部分進度如何那新竹市政府主張的這個竹科S2期的部分都市計畫的部分有沒有可能納入桃竹苗大細股計畫當中"},{"start":106.381,"end":119.066,"text":"報告委員,我們現在正在跟新竹市政府在合作。目前我們的X基地,第一棟的建築已經將近完工。"},{"start":119.616,"end":135.589,"text":"﹗"},{"start":136.269,"end":163.215,"text":"國家重大建設計劃這邊我要特別提到的部分就是說目前國科會這邊所涵蓋的範圍跟市政府希望的範圍有相當大的一個出入所以我們希望國科會這邊能夠儘速跟市政府做更進一步的溝通能夠滿足地方人士的需求好不好是我們會按照產業需求來協助市政府做這個事謝謝主委那我想接下來我再問一下院長"},{"start":164.235,"end":174.354,"text":"就是你知道說竹竹苗地區高中的一個擴增班的計畫你知道這個項目嗎請委員指教鄭部長可以支援一下齁"},{"start":175.609,"end":202.76,"text":"在今年1月8號的時候就選前一個禮拜的時候當時的行政院副院長鄭文燦特別到了竹科實驗高中去針對了一個大新竹地區高級中等學校擴增班級數政策的一個部分去做了一個說明當時包括了陽文科縣長、高鴻安市長、中東景縣長還有竹北市長、鄭朝芳市長都到了現場"},{"start":203.82,"end":230.257,"text":"表示這個事情確實大家都非常的關注然後竹竹苗的五位立委全數到齊在選前一個禮拜的時候大家都集中到了竹科、時中這邊來針對這個部分那我想問一下目前行政院對於這個部分的計畫執行到什麼程度因為1月15號之後選後其實各地方政府都趕快把資料送上去"},{"start":230.817,"end":244.082,"text":"送上去送到教育部這邊的時候呢那他也提到行政院這裡來那行政院這邊隔了這麼多個月之後不知道目前對於這項政策是不是要如時如期的去落實它"},{"start":246.597,"end":266.632,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員關心我們竹科確實這個學生人口數的一個增加那麼我們今年在113學年度9月也就是9月我們已經對這個國立的學校先增加了五班合定增加五班也就是說國立科學時鐘增加兩班"},{"start":267.913,"end":296.949,"text":"然後新竹高中一班,竹南高中一班這個部分因為113年度國立高中要增班的部分是第一步除了這個部分的時候各地方政府都提出了很多的需求新竹市這邊提到在到113年學年度到116年度至少要增加49班那對於這樣的一個部分的時候我們教育部這邊怎麼回因為到目前為止行政院的態度還沒有很清楚出來"},{"start":297.689,"end":320.146,"text":"我們希望這個部分光靠教育部也許沒有辦法解決當地的一個需求所以我們希望行政院長這邊的時候能夠大力支持這個在今年1月8號就是當時的行政院副院長所開出來的支票在選前開這樣的支票就顯然就知道說地方有多麼的一個需求"},{"start":320.962,"end":348.767,"text":"除了教育部在目前業務上之外國科會也在評估就實驗中學跟完全中學來提出一個增建校舍的新的計畫那這個部分我想我們就按照它的人口成長跟地區我們是不是有一個考量用一個專案的經費來挹注那這個部分請國科會提出詳細的說明配合教育部的政策所以到時候可以有一個專案的一個預算補助對不對希望從這個方向去做"},{"start":349.767,"end":349.787,"text":"﹚鄭正鈐"},{"start":372.202,"end":374.163,"text":"國客會提出評估那麼跟教育部的政策來契合"},{"start":392.941,"end":420.687,"text":"謝謝院長那接下來的時候我想問一下就是之前的時候就是也有委員提到就是有關於就是短期營隊的負責人因為之前確實在新竹地方發生了一個這樣的事情一個短期營隊的負責人性侵而且被判刑了4月份被判刑確定被判刑他也許會再上訴可是呢這個事情造成的地方很大的一個恐慌恐慌的點在哪裡因為他繼續招生"},{"start":422.092,"end":450.539,"text":"我想問一下院長對於這樣的短期營隊的時候我們是不是可以立法來進行管理我們現在對於這種不當行為啦不當的處處面對的行為我們都要列管註記這些不當行為人讓他們沒有辦法再繼續從事類似的工作而來對其他的人員或小孩造成這個侵害我們會加重列管註記的方式"},{"start":450.919,"end":464.345,"text":"所以列管登記之外的時候本席在這邊是不是可以主張我們對短期營隊的部分是不是可以採取報備制讓家長安心否則他們不曉得他們參加的營隊到底會是什麼樣子的一個營隊"},{"start":467.668,"end":481.988,"text":"現在的方式是不是夠嚴謹?我想跟委員報告,確實委員所提的這個是我們在學校裡邊有很多他要在短期的寒暑假的這些營隊他事實上都要經過地方縣市教育局裡邊報備核准的"},{"start":482.569,"end":503.91,"text":"但是屬於民間自己這個招攬的這一個部分。理解,所以這就是短期嘛。所以我在想說對於家長來講他們其實參加的營隊的時候不一定是能夠都是目前的法規可以管得到的補習班。所以短期營隊的時候我們是不是可以修法對於這些兒少有更多的一個保障。"},{"start":505.215,"end":507.136,"text":"接下來我想請教一下我們國科會的吳主委"},{"start":544.962,"end":562.852,"text":"之前你在清華大學擔任副校長的時候 對不對曾經接待過了一個海峽研究院這樣子的一個機制那當時你在回應委員職訓的時候你有提到說你很委屈 對不對你可以稍微簡單做個說明"},{"start":574.26,"end":586.75,"text":"所以你去接待之後你就被打成了一個中共在台的代理人這樣子的扣一個這樣的紅帽子說實話我也覺得你很委屈所以我也幫你說話"},{"start":587.831,"end":604.285,"text":"在上一屆當中的時候呢因為清大被扣紅帽的這個事情就是你被扣紅帽的這個事情我跟蘇貞昌院長當時行政院長有一個非常不愉快的一個對話因為當我在質詢這樣的事情的時候他不斷地說我很吵"},{"start":606.267,"end":617.6,"text":"說我是一個怎麼樣子一堆亂七八糟的那個說法都出來然後吵得很兇其實為了你這邊你是現在我們的一個閣員那我想特別強調一個點就是說"},{"start":619.961,"end":637.911,"text":"這個部分其實也看得出來我們其實在做國會改革當中的時候其實有一些合理性跟正當性的。因為我想問一下就是院長對於在被詢的時候然後不斷的在質疑質詢的人說你很吵然後講一些亂七八糟的話你覺得這樣子適當嗎?"},{"start":640.289,"end":665.026,"text":"報告委員我說過我再強調我說質詢就像一片鏡子一樣你所看到的我就是我看到的你所以我們很理性冷靜的來討論事情今天委員就能知道當時的吳主委是有機會讓他說明之後就知道當時的吳主委是沒有任何的值得你講的方式其實我要跟你講一下當我們在質詢前院長蘇貞昌的時候他跟你的反應是完全不一樣的"},{"start":665.626,"end":691.304,"text":"他就開始撇撇腳然後就開始講一些亂七八糟的事情很多委員都有類似的經驗那我覺得因為你也很理性我們在做這樣的對話所以我只是要特別強調就是當時我為了現在的國科會主委曾經跟前院長發生一個相當嚴重的一個爭執就是因為我也覺得你們被抹紅所以我們希望在整個所有的國會改革過程當中的時候能夠更順暢"},{"start":692.825,"end":708.496,"text":"那我接下來想再問一下國科會主委吳主委你特別提到了一個主權AI這件事情那最近其實大家都非常的關心因為半導體是台灣的護國神山所以是也對台灣的經濟有很大的一個貢獻那麼現在再加上AI"},{"start":710.398,"end":724.129,"text":"台灣在AI的硬體設備當中的時候呢在第一波就踩上了全球AI的高速列車對不對那您特別提到說台灣需要建立主權的AI你可以把這個部分做一個簡單的一個說明跟描述"},{"start":724.91,"end":746.51,"text":"我講主權AI的觀念主要是因為如果我們要使用AI當作工具來解決我們國內各行各業甚至包含到政府機構的這些應用的話我們需要第一要訓練自己的資料來訓練這些AI的模型來解決問題我們不希望使用到錯誤的訓練資料"},{"start":747.991,"end":776.135,"text":"那第二呢我們使用的時候我們的資料非常寶貴國內的資料希望能夠建置在臺灣的資料中心那我們現在要怎麼做政府要扮演什麼樣子的一個角色我們政府會來協助帶領我們的國內的產業一起來開發AI的這個資料中心超級電腦甚至我們AI的這個應用服務的系統"},{"start":776.855,"end":788.343,"text":"希望你報出來 因為那個你講這個部分我理解不過我覺得我看到了英國最近那個Totals Media它所做的一個那個全球的一個AI"},{"start":789.735,"end":819.497,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":819.637,"end":836.457,"text":"所以政府的角色在整個AI的發展過程當中目前看起來似乎是走在企業之後而不是在帶領企業往前走所以針對這個部分的時候除了這邊要不要多做一個說明或者是院長這邊要不要做一個說明我們接下來要怎麼去做"},{"start":837.157,"end":856.202,"text":"報告委員這樣講不是很正確。我們的硬體,我們AI的半導體以及雲端設備的硬體是全世界第一。但是我剛剛講的AI應用的系統的確是我們接下來必須要快速發展的。這個目前我們還有在努力。"},{"start":858.1,"end":881.557,"text":"所以你講這個部分我完全了解就台灣的高科技的製造業就全球很厲害在這一波AI當中的時候我們也踩到了全球的第一波當中可是AI的發展的時候它不是製造業的概念其實我們可能更需要的其實是一個AI的一個服務業所以我這邊要講的狀態其實說我們政府是不是除了"},{"start":882.358,"end":907.629,"text":"去秤了NVIDIA這邊的狀態說他到時候做台北1、台北2的時候有部分的一個算力要提供給政府這邊來使用他這邊要怎麼樣去分配要怎麼樣給學研機構去做使用我們目前已經有規劃出來了嗎另外一個部分是我覺得對於整個算力的部分台灣目前硬體很厲害可是我們的算力在全球排名確實是不前面"},{"start":908.249,"end":923.397,"text":"所以本席在這邊要特別針對臺灣算力的提升要求院長這邊跟主委這邊大力的支持因為算力的投資絕對是值得的因為算力就是國力我們目前的方向的確是要發展"},{"start":936.032,"end":936.052,"text":"謝謝鄭正鈐"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}