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«鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案案案件事宜（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":1348.157,"end":1349.237,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":1376.408,"end":1377.35,"text":"三﹑四﹑五﹑六﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑"},{"start":1389.514,"end":1412.827,"text":"三、回文都是交差了事也沒有講他調什麼資料所以在這個所有資料我也會移給我們調查小組去做參考那在這裡最後我還特別提案也就是我們調查小組已以成立所以我要謝謝我們委員會授權"},{"start":1416.369,"end":1438.326,"text":"讓我們調閱小組從今天開始就截止運作那再一次跟各位委員抱歉也跟各位委員謝謝所以在這裡我會把有關資料他們提供的資料我會移給調查小組他們繼續來做章稿以上跟各位做報告謝謝好謝謝林國哲委員"},{"start":1449.295,"end":1474.737,"text":"林國昇委員辛苦了,我知道你一籌莫展了,大家都很憤慨,謝謝。請問各位委員是不是照剛才林國昇,林昭吉人,國昇委員的意見?他的意見是?他的意見是鏡電視,等一下吧?"},{"start":1477.506,"end":1483.817,"text":"立法院交通委員會《鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組》即日起停止運作。"},{"start":1501.16,"end":1520.484,"text":"謝謝昭緯各位同仁大家好首先請林國成昭緯要保重身體的健康第二針對我們的調閱小組要終止運作那其實這個調閱小組成立之後也延長過一次經過兩個月之後"},{"start":1523.025,"end":1545.342,"text":"現在要終止運作但是我要請教一下我們有沒有所謂的報告或者是相關的處理的意見書現在調查要終止運作之後接下來又成立了一個跟司法相關的聯席的這樣的一個會議在一開始我也提醒各位"},{"start":1547.185,"end":1574.86,"text":"相關的這樣的一個聯席會議按照程序委員會的組織規程第五條第二項它必須是有相同性質的這樣的一個會議或者是議案才能夠來進行相關的聯席會議第二程序上是必須要經由院會交付如果院會沒有交付才有召委得"},{"start":1576.882,"end":1590.079,"text":"請院會來決定是否要交付給我們的委員會來進行相關的聯席會議。第一個也不相同性質第二個院會也沒交付然後召委也沒有請院會來交付"},{"start":1592.722,"end":1594.222,"text":"第二案僅進行詢答第二案僅進行詢答"},{"start":1621.201,"end":1621.621,"text":"好了,謝謝我們棍澤昭偉。"},{"start":1650.287,"end":1675.456,"text":"你一籌莫展,我沒有一籌莫展。剛才我跟昆哲兄跟你報告,得與不得嘛。因為這是個提案,不是法律案。前面那個院會沒有交付的時候,才有後面的。我知道,它不是法律案。要交給這個院會來做決定。它不是法律案,它不是預算案,它是提案。我們今天成立的也不是調查委員會,我們是調查小組。如果是調查委員會的話。但是你這個。"},{"start":1679.071,"end":1705.057,"text":"陳俊宇委員會的組織贊成第五條第二項,就是他的聯席會議的法源基金嘛。你要有相同性質嘛。你今天這樣的一個聯席會議,你接下來是不是還要成立三個委員會的聯席、四個委員會的聯席、五個委員會的聯席,沒完沒了。任何議事處理都必須按照議事規則基本的ABC,如果都沒有預設的話,這樣怎麼立法院的聯席?"},{"start":1705.057,"end":1706.698,"text":"不只啦,我們ABCD了。"},{"start":1707.813,"end":1736.517,"text":"我知道我知道我知道,昆山教委因為今天早上我們各黨各黨都已經經過充分討論了嘛,是不是?最後我們也做成這樣一個決定,但你有你的看法,但其他黨派也有他的看法。黑色就是黑色,白色就是白色,沒有說什麼你有你的看法,你說是黑色。沒有啊,黑色就黑色,我講白色就白色啊,是不是?就得與不得嘛,所以你認為你的看法是什麼顏色?好不好?請息怒慢走,恭送。"},{"start":1744.196,"end":1769.192,"text":"你發言還沒有啦,怎麼發言?那就是剛剛已經講了,就是照林國成委員的提案,我們就通過了還有韓資那個通產會還有韓資會議決議,韓資通產會,好總召請你有沒有接下來?欸?等一下等一下沒有,你是臨時動議還是什麼?"},{"start":1772.742,"end":1773.382,"text":"法會主席問答。"},{"start":1793.014,"end":1821.713,"text":"則成立了中華民國第一次的立法院職權行使法國會調查權正式成立調查小組我想今天雪生委員能夠排除萬難讓立法院的職權能夠得以伸張是不是我們各位委員是不是也給我們雪生召委他的道德勇氣我們給他掌聲一下好不好真的是謝謝雪生"},{"start":1823.015,"end":1823.416,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":1832.619,"end":1834.22,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十四條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":1858.309,"end":1877.821,"text":"過去這些都是民進黨堅持要成立這個國會聽證調查那當然呢剛剛有聽到白就是白黑就是黑那我不瞭解說在民國82年在民國這個92年到民國102年那個時候認為是那個時候認為是黑色的問題那現在為什麼是白色的問題"},{"start":1888.428,"end":1907.801,"text":"一分鐘一分鐘謝謝所以呢我想今天如同我們剛剛在發言都沒有人會去爭吵其他人的發言所以在現在我們在發言就有人在爭吵一樣嘛你認為你有你的想法但是我們有我們的想法我們要尊重主席這一分鐘的時間我會把它講完好不好"},{"start":1908.701,"end":1936.97,"text":"所以我在這裏要再次的謝謝這個我們這個召委陳雪真陳召委我想今天不是在交通司法聯席的過程當中能夠奠定這樣的一個基礎未來各個委員會也會全面的對於本於職權該讓民眾瞭解真相的部分我們都會全力的來推動也再次謝謝今天出席的所有的委員還有陳雪真委員你的辛勞謝謝"},{"start":1948.137,"end":1965.965,"text":"接下來進行鐵路法等二案的審查請提案委員說明提案要職時間兩分鐘請陳俊宇委員說明提案要職陳俊宇委員陳俊宇委員不在請廖先翔委員說明提案要職"},{"start":1979.983,"end":1980.263,"text":"主席、委員"},{"start":1997.056,"end":2020.026,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2020.186,"end":2020.566,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":2044.258,"end":2045.659,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":2067.015,"end":2082.931,"text":"三、在鐵路法上授權讓鐵路公司去訂定一個大家認為安全可行的方法讓在地的民眾出戶他們回家的時候是不用回法的當民眾他們需要救護車、消防車輛來救援的時候"},{"start":2086.434,"end":2087.215,"text":"謝謝廖先生委員請五次長報告"},{"start":2119.286,"end":2146.107,"text":"副委員部長去花蓮勘栽跟你報告一下是主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀立席貴委員會的審查鐵路法的修正會議敬請各位委員來指教有關陳委員近於24年擬具的鐵路法四十條針對鐵路機構遇到有重大的行車事故還有嚴重延遲應該立即通報以外還要啟動"},{"start":2147.228,"end":2170.694,"text":"旅客的接駁應變計劃一樣目前各鐵路機構其實都已經有相關的應變機制那本部會尊重委員會的審查結果另外廖委員先翔等18人就鐵路法第五十七條徵定在鐵路路線橋樑為當地民眾通行道路時行人及車輛不受限制通行以及徵定主管機關應該滿足跨越"},{"start":2172.875,"end":2173.895,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":2193.78,"end":2217.878,"text":"那有關的這個委員所擬具的鐵路法修正草案的建議處理意見,我請本部的公共運輸監理司司長林福山向各位委員做詳細的一個說明。再次感謝委員的關心以及指教,謝謝。好,請公共運輸局監理司林司長報告。"},{"start":2220.389,"end":2239.126,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就有關陳委員、俊宇等24人擬具《鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案》案及廖委員、先翔等18人擬具《鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案》案提出交通部建議處理意見"},{"start":2240.467,"end":2255.577,"text":"那有關於陳委員等24人提案修正40條的重點部分大概是針對這個鐵路機構遇有重大行車事故和嚴重延遲除了應立即通報監理單位交通部鐵道局之外"},{"start":2256.377,"end":2279.416,"text":"那擬正定並應啟動旅客接駁應變計畫之規定。那經查現行這個條文同條第一項雖然沒有委員擬正定的文字規定但同條第四項的行車事故應變計畫已經有包括旅客疏散、接駁及人員救護等計畫措施現行各鐵路機構也依應變計畫來辦理"},{"start":2280.957,"end":2296.897,"text":"所以針對委員徵定第一項規定文字系有力條文更真明確那交通部原則尊重這個委員會審查的一個結果那有關廖委員先翔等18人提案修正第五十七條部分"},{"start":2298.069,"end":2321.797,"text":"委員提案修正重點主要是因為現行同條第二項有規定行人車輛不得侵入鐵路路線、橋樑、隧道內及站區內非公眾通行之處所。原理增訂第三項規定在鐵路路線、橋樑為當地居民通行之必要通路且無公有道路替代時,行人及車輛"},{"start":2323.339,"end":2352.739,"text":"可不受限制。那即倪徵定第四項規定鐵路路線設置而導致繼承道路無法通行。主管機關應滿足跨越鐵路路線之救災通行需求。那針對委員徵定兩項提案之這個處理意見主要考量建於鐵路運輸量大速度快為確保鐵路營運及眾多乘客之安全並防止行人車輛侵入造成本身之傷亡"},{"start":2353.999,"end":2368.524,"text":"本條第二項才規定排除鐵路路權範圍內之外物入侵以維護鐵路路線列車營運、鐵路眾多乘客及相關行人、車輛之安全。委員提案擬增訂第三項"},{"start":2369.304,"end":2397.293,"text":"其本質主要是當地居民年外道路應完善設置以解決居民可安全通行之課題。關於三雕林車站當地居民年外通行之課題新北市政府已在今年6月27號邀集有關單位研商將由該府選址並興建跨河橋樑供當地居民或觀光旅遊民眾可安全通行。那在這個橋樑尚未完成建置之前交通部"},{"start":2397.893,"end":2421.346,"text":"目前也在研議協助短期的過渡方案那原則將由台鐵公司與山瓜子鐵路橋樑上上游側先行代辦透寬立體分隔可供居民及機車通行至安全空間再交由該府管養相關過渡方案內容及分工交通部會緊述會商新北市政府來推動辦理那另外"},{"start":2422.347,"end":2435.637,"text":"依據災害防救法相關的規定當災害或緊急狀況發生時災害應變中心或指揮官得命令執行緊急應變計畫之各項措施所以包括消防等緊急救災時"},{"start":2437.638,"end":2452.95,"text":"鐵路機構依相關法令及指揮官之指揮本級應配合執行救災通行之需求所以建議第四項義務增訂之需要。此外本次委員提案在五十七條增訂第三項及第四項"},{"start":2453.59,"end":2475.944,"text":"那原條文第三項及第四項規定改一列第五項及第六項,因同法第七十條列有違反原第五十七條第三項及第四項的處罰規定,所以原必須同時配套修正鐵路法第七十條的規定。終整以上的意見,本部建議本條暫不予修正,維持現行條文。"},{"start":2478.092,"end":2505.891,"text":"有關於這次陳委員及這個廖委員所提這個鐵路法第四十條及七十條修正提案之這個建議處理線僅進行各位委員參裁好現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項一、發言時間出席委員五分鐘列席委員四分鐘"},{"start":2506.96,"end":2523.475,"text":"委員法院登記12點截止。各委員如果有提案,請在11點10分以前提出,以便議事人員會診。暫定12點休息10分鐘。週五原則上不休息,現在請登記第一位陳樹岳委員法院。"},{"start":2534.288,"end":2535.009,"text":"市長、董事長委員好"},{"start":2547.1,"end":2563.465,"text":"市長早安我們知道現在的極端氣候有時候在短時間內的強降雨真的就是會導致這個土石流的一個發生那對於整個交通這個路線就是造成很大的一個安全上的一個威脅"},{"start":2564.565,"end":2565.785,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答第二案僅進行詢答第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":2593.334,"end":2594.435,"text":"三、盤點與巡檢確保邊坡安全。"},{"start":2608.271,"end":2628.969,"text":"市委跟委員報告齁,剛剛講這個西幾邊坡的部分,確實現在目前氣候變遷很大齁。那這部分我們的鐵路也好,包括台鐵高鐵還有公務局,這部分大概都針對邊坡部分都進行來巡檢。這個1個月內可以完成就沒問題,現在大概都已經在收尾,後面的收尾的階段。"},{"start":2630.082,"end":2658.992,"text":"對阿因為今天已經7月3號了嘛對阿剛好一個月了是是那應該是很快的時間就可以有結果了對是是可以好那在這個交通運輸上阿這個軌道運輸一般是被認為是快速又安全的啦可是我們看到最近幾次這個就是鐵道的事故阿真的也是讓人家非常的擔憂那在這個6月21號發生的土石邊坡滑落"},{"start":2659.292,"end":2660.493,"text":"第二案僅進行詢答 （第二案僅進行詢答"},{"start":2679.401,"end":2701.861,"text":"是,我跟委員報告,謝謝委員的指教。這邊剛提到6月21這個部分,就是這個上面畫面所顯示的,這是我們的監視器所看到的,沒有錯。但是他這部分他沒有告警,他本身沒有告警。所以我們現在針對這部分,因為主要他大概途徑有下來。"},{"start":2702.481,"end":2703.122,"text":"第二案僅進行詢答第二案僅進行詢答"},{"start":2731.975,"end":2759.363,"text":"對因為就這個曝光的畫面我們看到就是說事實上在列車要通過前19分鐘這個畫面就已經有顯示有這個土石流已經淹沒在鐵軌上了所以如果說我們有那個感應的那個預警系統就是義務入侵的系統的話那應該就是可以及時的來知道有這樣子的一個狀況發生來避免列車去撞上所以在這部分剛剛次長提到了就是會來裝設"},{"start":2761.644,"end":2783.095,"text":"那應該就是說從北到南,那包括東部的所有的鐵軌,針對有這個比較高危險的,就是土石流的一個地區都會來裝設嗎?是,會遵照委員的指教,我們會計前線再去做,那一季大概一個月內先把它攀點出來,後續剛我們開始做哪些,不管是防護也好,告警系統,我想這個我們會做一個整個攀點。"},{"start":2783.919,"end":2784.62,"text":"第二案僅進行詢答"},{"start":2805.761,"end":2827.378,"text":"議員陳俊宇主要是針對在重大事故的時候要啟動旅客的接駁應變計劃他是希望把這個明文規定在法令裡面那我想請教一下就是說在這個條文裡面沒有明確的規範在遇到像剛剛我們提到的這個0621的這個事故或者之前的重大事故的時候我們是怎麼去應變的"},{"start":2829.043,"end":2850.089,"text":"我報告一下其實在同一個條文它第四項就已經包括說鐵路機構應該要這個所謂的應變計畫那應變計畫其實包括那個旅客接駁現在目前台鐵它所有的車站大概都有所謂的它的開口企業的相關的公路接駁的這個樣的企業所以應該這部分到目前來執行大概都沒什麼問題"},{"start":2850.649,"end":2878.836,"text":"都沒有問題喔那這個0621這個事件發生的時候我們從畫面上看到旅客他後來就是走走在鐵軌上走到下一個車站是不是是那那個狀況呢蠻危險的跟委員報告他不是走到下一個車站是我們有一個4033次的列車開到他旁邊他們走走過橋以後上4033然後再開到崇德跟新城"},{"start":2879.761,"end":2880.562,"text":"檸檬火車站開發招商"},{"start":2895.93,"end":2925.913,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2925.913,"end":2942.056,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2943.075,"end":2961.523,"text":"委員報告這個地點是在園林站的旁邊是個狹長型的地域剛剛委員的指教我們會馬上做一個清理雜草等等的會做一個清理至於招商的進度主要"},{"start":2962.363,"end":2978.046,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":2978.466,"end":2983.289,"text":"希望我們能夠更積極,檢討一下到底我們誘因不夠還是什麼樣的原因導致投標的意願低。最後一個問題關心一下有關班次改點的問題。我們在6月26號有大改點。"},{"start":2999.239,"end":3005.201,"text":"三、張化站與元寧站改點前跟改點後其實差異不大元寧這邊南張化的鄉親也一再的反映就是說希望之前有兩班普悠瑪號就是早上有一班278跟下午的282希望能夠從元寧發車"},{"start":3025.49,"end":3051.091,"text":"這個我們鄉親反映了很多次所以這個部分我們在這次的改點裡面也沒有納入考量是不是請杜董事長這個在改點之前我們沒有把278這兩列車納入我想我們後續再來研議一下看看是不是可以調整它的始發站因為我們的路線容量是蠻緊的"},{"start":3051.972,"end":3052.372,"text":"謝謝主席請教一下"},{"start":3081.971,"end":3084.052,"text":"主席,今天部長沒有來,原因是什麼?"},{"start":3111.285,"end":3130.137,"text":"委員長,從局長到次長的感覺怎麼樣?粉墨登場,恭喜啊!現在鐵道跟公路啊,都是國內的,要面對很大的一個嚴重的問題。那請問一下,我還是要請教一下,部長今天去哪裡?"},{"start":3132.889,"end":3140.859,"text":"因為我只是接到說要我來開會他說要請假但是他真正形成我並沒有幫他掌控所以你到現在還不知道部長去哪裡"},{"start":3143.58,"end":3169.047,"text":"議長的行政我不用跟我講。不是嘛,你照實講沒有關係嘛。你到現在還不知道部長去哪裡,不會,你們現在交通部整個正向上下跟左右橫向聯繫都出了問題是嗎?不是不是。所以你也不用在乎說部長今天在哪裡,你也不care就對了。不是,因為今天我接的任務就是來這個教育會這邊來勒洗備詢這樣。所以部長去哪裡你不曉得,也不關心?"},{"start":3169.929,"end":3197.645,"text":"不是不關心啦因為這個長官的行程我沒辦法去去說去詢問說他到底去哪邊是沒有關係啦你要這種詢答方式的話以後在立法院你會很不會很不適應因為有話就照實講嘛你怎麼會站在這裡都不知道說到此時此刻你還不知道部長去哪裡嗎剛剛主席都宣讀這麼多次了你不知道你沒有聽到你沒有戴耳朵到立法院來嗎"},{"start":3199.895,"end":3224.824,"text":"全時面對嘛本席再請教你一次今天部長在哪裡報告我聽到剛剛委員所講的說他是到花蓮看災但是我在內部我沒有掌握到這個訊息我沒有部長到花蓮看災看什麼災你們交通沒關係還有鐵路一起上來沒有關係今天看什麼災"},{"start":3231.133,"end":3234.736,"text":"來那個杜董事長今天部長去哪裡"},{"start":3254.911,"end":3276.478,"text":"報告委員我不知道部長在哪邊不過灘災到花蓮部長已經跑好幾次了不是啊我本席問的是今天嘛這個我真的不清楚那個那個真的欸那個是不是請學生主席回來一下齁今天很奇怪啊交通部上上下下部長失蹤了然後呢主管鐵道的鐵路局董事長也不知道部長去哪裡"},{"start":3285.086,"end":3309.493,"text":"那部長今天去哪裡跟鐵路是無關的所以董事長不知道是嗎你真的不知道我真的不知道那今天部長表示今天部長的行程是不公開的你們都不知道對內也不曉得是私人行程是隱蔽的那私人行程憑什麼可以不來立法院備詢呢"},{"start":3313.905,"end":3317.898,"text":"抱怨部長應該有依照程序向交友會請教才對。"},{"start":3321.054,"end":3347.452,"text":"市長你等一下叫幕僚打電話問一下我們這裡他確實有請假那今天如果說去看花蓮的鐵路還是公路既然鐵路的董事長都不知道部長去哪裡那部長今天去花蓮要做什麼還是不是去花蓮是隱匿去詐騙詐欺會議主席說要去花蓮然後所有的交通部的成員都不知道要去哪裡"},{"start":3348.473,"end":3359.863,"text":"我們要不要貼學員啟示啊部長到底去哪裡啊市長不知道鐵路董事長不知道那部長到底去哪裡是不是你們去請一下學生委員好不好不是啊我們現在真的"},{"start":3377.304,"end":3383.68,"text":"要正式來會議詢問啊部長為什麼沒有來次長任何人都不知道部長去哪裡我們立法院生病了是嗎"},{"start":3392.498,"end":3416.201,"text":"市長等一下是不是請示幕僚人員跟他的機要看看他是確實有請假但是他是另有要工但是剛才陳主席寫聲啊他是講說他去花蓮所以這個核對一下有沒有去花蓮或其他地方轉到花蓮這個求證一下好不好一個"},{"start":3417.674,"end":3436.924,"text":"主席我們光詢問部長去哪裡到現在為止整個交通部無人可以回應今天是立法院正式開議的日期也是有邀請交通部長到本委員會來到立法院來沒人知道"},{"start":3451.035,"end":3472.594,"text":"那我們這個會議詢問要詢問到什麼時候他去問了啦那裡面裡面趕快叫幕僚去問一下啦這個交通部來立法院列席沒有人知道今天列席的原因因為部長去哪裡沒有人知道這是我們今天的立法院這國會已經失能了是嗎"},{"start":3480.269,"end":3489.915,"text":"你先問其他好了。讓他去查。查完以後再來。時間補給你。我們回憶詢問,現在到底部長去哪裡?阿次長也不知道。我先來做內容詢答啦,好不好。"},{"start":3508.97,"end":3509.991,"text":"六月二十號到今天請次長看一下"},{"start":3536.774,"end":3562.921,"text":"因為今天你是代表部長出席不是只有負責鐵道的部分六月二十號樹花公路土石流攤方所以只出不進二十一號鐵路出軌二十六號台九線"},{"start":3565.205,"end":3588.479,"text":"具時阻擋車道二十七號攤房中斷二十九號大清水又攤房三十號台八線巨大落石把整個道路中斷七月一號再發生"},{"start":3591.884,"end":3592.465,"text":"市長跟委員報告號"},{"start":3620.413,"end":3649.554,"text":"這次確實是在花蓮地區的最近就近日從這邊看真的是很多土石流的部分過去真的是比較少見過去大概落石比較多那這是我們現在研判大概應該就是上次地震的關係有些是在上面已經鬆動了經過近日的下雨整個就土石流下來沒有關係你等於沒有在回答本席的問題本席說這個問題到底要怎麼處理這就是老生常談的嘛"},{"start":3651.218,"end":3667.232,"text":"對嗎?你在局裡服務到當局長一直到當次長老生常談我們看一下告警系統我們現在看一下告警系統告警系統之前從104年開始這樣表列出來這個告警系統這是104年"},{"start":3677.486,"end":3696.073,"text":"一百零四年開始那個比較模糊那個照相檔把它列出來是一百零四年開始這個計畫一百零四年邊坡告警系統原本是在一百零九年要完成"},{"start":3698.936,"end":3720.444,"text":"本信箱讓你知道104年到109年應該要完成的結果沒有完成因為交通部的告警系統設置去延緩延緩之後本來109年要完工因為沒有完工造成110年4月2號0402太魯閣號事件49條人命損失"},{"start":3726.57,"end":3746.204,"text":"因為你們的工程延誤造成告急系統沒有做好49條人命現在同個地方鐵路又出軌。社長東部的人命這麼不受到重視嗎?"},{"start":3749.295,"end":3771.938,"text":"你們工程的延誤造成49條人命的損失告警系統沒有設立完整接下來又發生這樣的事情市長本席今天請教你的問題請有一個明確的書面的回答"},{"start":3774.475,"end":3799.128,"text":"請部裡面給我一個明確的回答。還有本席在這裡齁,請那個主席齁。這裡要一個明確的。齁,那個,那個,好,我們主席回來了。我要請主席啊,因為剛剛我們在詢問啊,部長為什麼沒有來齁。然後,對,部長請假,那請問部長去哪裡?"},{"start":3801.701,"end":3823.659,"text":"本席剛剛請教次長跟董事長都不知道部長去哪裡整個交通部都不知道今天部長去哪裡本席現在在這裡希望主席要做這邊要做一個折騰跟一個決定部長今天要去花蓮關心花蓮我們很高興"},{"start":3826.141,"end":3851.027,"text":"我們也很歡迎但是一個堂堂中華民國的一個部長去花蓮我們在地的人立委沒有人知道你們到地方是要偷偷摸摸沒有任何人知道嗎通知一下有問題嗎現在行政官員傲慢到這種程度嗎地方都不用通知嗎"},{"start":3854.554,"end":3875.311,"text":"是不是請主席齁這個交通部還是我們各部會到哪一個地方去你希望國會議員你要起碼一個尊重一個兆會聯席嘛本來本席今天來這裡就是要問部長的我是到了這裡聽你宣讀完我才知道啊部長去花蓮了為什麼我們都不知道"},{"start":3879.576,"end":3895.047,"text":"請主席拜託他可以請假他可以請假沒有關係他可以請假沒有關係但起碼你要去哪一個在地要通知在地我們在地完全不知道所以今天來這裡撲空不然我在華林等他就好了"},{"start":3896.195,"end":3919.802,"text":"市長回去跟部長報告一下好不好?是留去哪裡看災都好事嘛,對不對?通知當地的首長啊?是當地首長也很歡迎啊,不會說拒絕嘛,對不對?是好啦好啦好啦好啦好,林俊憲市長發言欸不,委員啦,不是市長喔?還沒有?"},{"start":3920.896,"end":3929.023,"text":"還沒成熟來,謝主席,要請我們交通部五次長、鐵道局楊局長、台鐵杜董事長"},{"start":3942.338,"end":3953.767,"text":"臺南市政府已經把一個非常重要的臺南市捷運的規劃案送進鐵道局。這是臺南市叫做藍線的延伸,我們就簡稱為藍沿線,藍線的延伸線。"},{"start":3958.117,"end":3958.457,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":3988.277,"end":3994.784,"text":"所以這個藍色顏色你覺得這個非常重要所以請提到局我們盡數要來審議"},{"start":3997.772,"end":4018.569,"text":"因為未來啦我覺得這一塊啦已經難怪今天這一塊啦是台南的另外一顆鑽石啦現在幾乎所有國家重要的研究機構都在那個地方而且啊未來會有無限的發展可能因為他那邊土地足夠啦交通又非常方便因為就在高鐵站嘛"},{"start":4019.469,"end":4039.093,"text":"所以這樣的一個捷運線我們當然要超前部署啦所以請田道瑜這邊能夠加快速度協助台南市政府好不好好 這我跟委員報告齁這個當時大概幾個單位有意見給台南市政府台南市已經在6月21號已經又送進來了所以我們近日會安排這個審議這個會議來讓加速這條線的一個審議進度好 那也感謝次長還有局長的協助齁"},{"start":4047.654,"end":4072.144,"text":"另外我要請教台鐵的杜局長那社長也要幫我們關心本集接到一個陳情案就是有一個搭車的民眾那他的親人一起在車上心臟病發結果在車上呼救無門那列車上也沒有加裝AED就是自動體外的心臟電極器所以不幸的他去世了"},{"start":4073.64,"end":4093.088,"text":"現在我們新的車廂,台北最新的車廂都有但是我們剛好在這個時間點舊的志強號在全面改造那是不是舊的志強號全面改造的時候應該也要裝上這樣的一個急救設備請杜局長有這樣的規劃嗎?是各位委員報告的確現在我們PP我們的動改案現在正在進行"},{"start":4098.991,"end":4122.06,"text":"那因為PP他還是屬於我們尤其西部幹線的成績列車他那個到站的間距比較長在車上的時間比較多所以我們未來在動改的過程中我們會把PP的車廂會加裝AED因為你現在救治強化大概有兩三百個老舊的車廂在改造這個要裝上去啦我舉個例子啦你這樣高鐵不用講啦"},{"start":4127.984,"end":4152.312,"text":"像捷運,捷運在這個法定規定上它並沒有列為必要裝的啦,但機捷就有裝,因為我們有一個長距離交通工具,機關它只有列到高鐵飛機,它沒有列到台鐵,但實際上以目前的這種保健的觀念,急救的觀念應該要有,所以你新買的車廂都有,"},{"start":4154.213,"end":4168.889,"text":"其中有一些車站之間的間距會很遠,尤其像花東。我舉一個例子,像南澳到花蓮,要40分鐘才能停。你蘇澳到新城也是差不多40分鐘。所以應該利用這一次改造,應該把這個地方給補起來。"},{"start":4169.91,"end":4171.191,"text":"三、台鐵在今年是正式公司化（"},{"start":4198.866,"end":4204.128,"text":"那台鐵公司化以後啊,待遇有沒有提高?有沒有辦法吸引人才到我們台鐵來?"},{"start":4205.709,"end":4232.307,"text":"這跟委員報告我們現在台鐵是雙軌制我們選擇在舊軌做資位人員的話他是有這個規定他這個要提高的話並不容易但是我們新招的這個從業人員他如果來公司裡面他夠努力績效好的話他的年薪是有機會來超過同等資位的這個留任人員"},{"start":4233.388,"end":4258.733,"text":"但是看起來喔,薪資水準還是偏低啦。比如說跟高鐵這種,這種比較有錢的公司比啦。你看高鐵平均薪資是八萬九塊九萬啦。台鐵才四萬九啦。那以薪資的中位數,大概都差不多高鐵的五成而已,五成多一點。那其中有些特殊人員的薪資更低啦。台鐵的勞安和醫護人員。"},{"start":4260.313,"end":4267.638,"text":"你看我們對勞安醫護人員因為那個有專業你看要求很高你必須要有雙證照等等而且吃飯還要自己付錢"},{"start":4270.253,"end":4274.175,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":4291.277,"end":4308.23,"text":"其他大概都沒有人來然後報導率啊又再扣個5%那一年後的離職率啊大概也有十幾%了你台鐵不是也你欠人像那個台東段的電機人員要招募7人就一個來報名照理講錄取率百分之百"},{"start":4309.031,"end":4311.732,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":4338.925,"end":4359.713,"text":"不講了?不講了?何委員他不同意啊何新成委員請他完畢就處理提案好請何新成委員發言謝謝學生張維,我們是不是請次長好請我次長"},{"start":4370.788,"end":4388.696,"text":"主席,昨天台中捷運的局限可行性通過了。在昨天的會議裡面,我知道有學者專家針對一些現行的規劃,有一些意見,但是我們還是讓他先通過,然後附帶一些建議、附帶條件。"},{"start":4391.477,"end":4420.803,"text":"那請問一下我這有一個是有關供購的問題因為呢以現在看到的規劃局限他從清泉崗機場來到這個車站那往我屯區大理那邊過去到霧峰但是呢在車站那一個部分呢我們知道第一個有沒有跟台鐵的車站供購第二個我們的還有一個客運的轉運站第三個呢有沒有跟藍線供購交集來來市長你就理解了解"},{"start":4421.67,"end":4447.279,"text":"我跟委員報告所以這是昨天大概有很多人針對這個有意見目前規劃大概380公尺那他如果要靠近比較靠近共過完全共過大概不可能但是越靠近越好那些越靠近的話大概就會用到使用到台鐵他要渡工的那塊地那我昨天是跟台中市政府有跟他建議如果你把這個捷運站引進來你給他獎勵嘛"},{"start":4449.582,"end":4470.776,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":4471.016,"end":4499.325,"text":"我下個禮拜一也要邀請我們交通委員會去看車站那邊的現場也希望市長跟部長能夠把這個共構雖然已經看起來沒辦法但是一定要把那個距離拉近因為我們去到國外看到對很多大城市的捷運系統來講它一定要有一個短距離的連結它的這個交通經濟"},{"start":4500.665,"end":4508.111,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案案件事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案案件事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案案件事宜。"},{"start":4529.226,"end":4530.107,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":4553.45,"end":4579.136,"text":"二、關心一下我們臺中市政府後續的一個規劃啦好不好。能盡量協助解決啦好不好。那第二個我要想請教這個次長最近疫情升溫那暑假呢又是一個觀光大家遊客臺灣國人移動的一個最旺季那我們大眾運輸跟旅宿業有怎麼的一個因應?次長"},{"start":4581.663,"end":4603.744,"text":"你說這個疫情真的流行到小孩子有腸病毒、諾蘿病毒然後又有這個新冠疫情然後連老人家其實我聽聞我身邊其實不分年齡層幾乎都有所謂的疫情升溫或者是受到疫情的感染的現象越來越多人"},{"start":4604.905,"end":4632.526,"text":"那這個部分次長我們可以怎麼樣的來確保這個暑假期間旅遊的大旺季那也是國人移動的一個最最最最最長的一個時間點裡面針對疫情我們有什麼看法是這個疫情身份是確實目前看到一些報導大概是這樣子那我想我們後面因為以我們交通業來講我希望大概我們會配合衛部他如果有什麼公佈相關的措施我們來配合辦理"},{"start":4633.346,"end":4659.399,"text":"我是建議不要被動的請衛福部來公布是不是應該可以先行跟衛福部來討論因為第一個我們大眾運輸包括鐵道包括高鐵那包括我們很多各地方政府的大眾運輸系統我覺得這個是國人在生活面裡面最關心的一件事情第二個我們現在是觀光季那旅宿業的"},{"start":4660.74,"end":4661.421,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":4681.564,"end":4706.113,"text":"謝謝,那最後的最後只有一個我是提醒台鐵我們現在公司化了要營運要營餘我知道現行我們台鐵有所謂的那個PASS這個PASS呢這有學生國人用的用供給外國國防科購買採購的我是建議我們現在都常常到國外自助行我們到了國外自助行我們看到歐美日本他們對鐵道的周遊券"},{"start":4707.354,"end":4711.362,"text":"不管是什麼PASS都很彈性而且多元組合。"},{"start":4713.182,"end":4734.372,"text":"這個東西我覺得我們現在公司化了我們應該要更有行銷的一個彈性跟特殊性還有便利性這樣子才能夠促成外國觀光客來臺自由行也好或者是其他的一個行程的安排也好他才能夠深度旅遊才能夠真正的認識臺灣這個台鐵可以規劃嗎"},{"start":4738.507,"end":4738.527,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":4769.758,"end":4780.057,"text":"好,謝謝何新淳委員。現在處理臨時提案。本日一共有兩個案,請議事先讀,一併先讀。"},{"start":4785.587,"end":4813.437,"text":"二、請國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司為特殊需求應於一個月內提出相關配套管理及安全措施與特定路段時段開放行人車輛進入鐵路路線及場站區內非公共眾通行之處所等並規劃穿越軌道路線以滿足救災需求以因應災害發生並保障居民與遊客基本通行權利。"},{"start":4814.488,"end":4843.817,"text":"提案人（委員廖先翔等。饮食提案三有建議觀光業影響宜蘭縣整體產業發展勝舉。進請交通部觀光署評估振興獎勵補助方案納入宜蘭縣之可行性,比照臺東縣對自由行與團體旅遊入住宜蘭縣進行補助於一週內。將評估報告送交交通委員會。提案人（委員林國誠等。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":4845.626,"end":4863.539,"text":"好,各位委員跟交通部有沒有意見?第二案我們建議倒數第四行最右邊,於特定路段的前面加上原意兩個字。這第一案嗎?他剛剛說第二案。"},{"start":4873.499,"end":4900.214,"text":"那你來第三案?委員那這就是修正,如果沒意見就修正通過。這個第二案嗎?那這個就一案嗎?沒有,第一案已經處理過了。我第二案處理過了?這第三案嗎?委員那這個就是修正通過。好,第二案那個各位有沒有意見?沒意見修正通過?第三案?有沒有意見?沒意見專案通過?"},{"start":4906.829,"end":4932.574,"text":"好,下一位請魯明哲委員發言好,謝謝主席,有請五次長五次長請鐵道局楊局長鐵道局楊局長委員好好這個今天齁"},{"start":4934.778,"end":4950.897,"text":"正好是這一位次長一位局長那過去鐵道局的局長副局長然後現在先後是我們一路打拼啦這個在很多我們桃園軌道工程其實我看到兩位是真的是比較務實的專業務實比較少政治性解決問題"},{"start":4955.179,"end":4972.346,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4973.089,"end":4973.629,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":4999.386,"end":5002.867,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":5018.333,"end":5036.306,"text":"三個月前3月22號說啊要延三當時講三年啊到底延三年還是四年啊沒關係啊現在到底延三年還是四年現在經費概算結果到底增加多少兩位要不要誰說一下"},{"start":5038.608,"end":5065.28,"text":"這個我想我先說明一下當時其實我在當局長的時候那時候就碰到物條的問題其實那時候大概就會增加大概會增加大概400億左右那後來當然我離開之後那時候楊局長接了以後他有所謂的就是繼續南延那一段那一段大概1.2公里大概增加不少錢所以這樣整個加起來的話現在我不曉得那個就老實估算大概是多少對對"},{"start":5066.789,"end":5066.949,"text":"主席"},{"start":5087.694,"end":5099.258,"text":"一般我看到了大概最後是漲30到50的比較多一點像你從1048億要漲到如果剛剛講771的話最後的結果會1800億漲7乘5啊 這個部分這個部分讓我們覺得財務上是有點憂心那第二個問題我想直接鐵道局楊局長你來回答好不好"},{"start":5114.964,"end":5133.157,"text":"我上次總質詢關心這個三個議題啦可能會造成延誤的三大議題第一個因為現在三個上面打勾的三個站還沒發包因為沒錢發包內地車站、桃一車站跟鳳鳴車站現在大概修正計畫報的進度如何預計這三個還沒發包的車站什麼時候預計可以發包跟委員報告現在修正計畫正在積極進行當中"},{"start":5141.903,"end":5143.445,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":5158.319,"end":5175.589,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5176.185,"end":5204.654,"text":"桃園站的文資議題呢因為我們最近才會進場就是真正去做工程方面的工作那我們已經陸續跟原來就是桃園捷運局那邊文資處理的團隊跟桃園捷運局保持密切的合作在這個地方來就是原來有溝通完成的團隊繼續來沿用他們溝通會好一點喔是的好不好有朝這個方向嗎是有那第三個是這個我們憑證呢憑證段這個也是要等修正計畫嗎"},{"start":5205.914,"end":5206.894,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":5230.401,"end":5231.361,"text":"議員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":5259.511,"end":5287.632,"text":"五億、十億、想要存個八年有個四、五十億可是我看到現在經費從一零四八要調到一千八百億可能喔那我們在想哇!鐵路地下化要退這麼多年講了這麼久桃園市政府針對於鐵路地下化這件事到底自己存在自己的戶頭多少錢到底要他存多少錢你們已經提供了多少錢我在想至少要兩成吧"},{"start":5291.25,"end":5300.933,"text":"實際的狀況,截至昨天為止,原本1048億,地方要出262億,中央786億。過去到112年,大概5、6年的時間,臺灣市政府只有付了14.19億,中央53.47億。今年度113年,"},{"start":5318.117,"end":5319.998,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":5348.632,"end":5349.773,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":5369.361,"end":5393.036,"text":"還欠多少?415億。在未來,如果你們112年能夠完工,還有9年的時間要提撥。尤其是越接近完工,可能一年要變成80億、100億。那中央呢?你們再增加之後,你們要出1311億。你們截至目前為止,也經費的到位率也只有6.6%。"},{"start":5394.497,"end":5399.579,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答一﹗二﹗二﹗三﹗一﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗三﹗"},{"start":5423.575,"end":5440.196,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5440.987,"end":5450.979,"text":"嗯,中央的這個財務部分沒有問題啊,我們114年,其實這一年我們逃避的部分大概已經編列框了159億,就是將近160億。所以,框了150幾億嘛?160。那我可以跟你報告一下齁,"},{"start":5457.746,"end":5483.177,"text":"這個地方政府今年起議明年明年應該要框個四五十億大概明年只有十億你們大概要討論一下千萬不要因為這個財務的問題再讓已經延待的工程繼續延誤好不好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝魯明哲委員的發言稍微請廖先翔委員發言"},{"start":5496.319,"end":5499.69,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩我們吳次長還有我們杜局長。"},{"start":5509.562,"end":5509.702,"text":"主席"},{"start":5540.163,"end":5557.343,"text":"除了網紅代理這個議題之前其實這個議題長期以來本身就是困擾著我們山雕嶺居住的民眾因此我在相關新聞出來之前就已經有你鐵路法的修法案了那就是長期以來是地方民眾的一個通行的一個需求"},{"start":5558.044,"end":5582.434,"text":"那很簡單的問一下次長會的局長我們山雕嶺裡面的租屋那個叫漁療路假設我們今天兩位長官住在我們山雕嶺漁療路那請問一下兩位今天要怎麼回家我剛提到我知道那個委員所講的就是他要通過平沼道他要轉那個山爪溪橋的部分那我覺得"},{"start":5586.037,"end":5598.492,"text":"這個我應該這麼說齁我叫你當事齁下白市會去找那個新北市齁跟他談一下這個事情你們在做的事情我知道嘛你們有可能想要去做一些拓荒還怎麼樣子的對對是那個都是之後的事嘛今天要怎麼回家"},{"start":5602.1,"end":5629.556,"text":"是...看起來有點困難這就是居民每天遭遇到的問題那我知道居民通行的問題確實不是我們這個鐵路公司這個可能單方面的一個責任但是他現況就是這樣子我們要去做改善我們要去做改善都是包括一些硬體設施的改善他都是需要經費需要時間可能是一年兩年那這段時間勒"},{"start":5630.857,"end":5646.46,"text":"這段時間他們不用出門嗎?還是說他們我們這個我們來這個苦民說苦一下他們對我們的另外橋樑還沒做好之前我們市長跟局長跟他們一樣都待在家裡不要出門體驗一下他們的痛苦"},{"start":5650.011,"end":5669.024,"text":"短期當然就是我們現在大概有研擬出來一個方案就是剛講拓寬的部分這後續我再請他去這樣做啦那這中間如果說在更臨時的部分我們再想看看有沒有什麼其他方案修法是最快的路修法並不是說修了之後"},{"start":5669.804,"end":5670.084,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":5687.534,"end":5688.735,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":5705.029,"end":5705.489,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳宇等24人擬具"},{"start":5725.575,"end":5727.077,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":5746.189,"end":5746.329,"text":"議員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":5758.363,"end":5786.728,"text":"五秒必爭每延誤一分鐘都比我們現在一個小時還要的痛苦那一樣我會提這個救災救難的一個配套措施也是一樣希望我們能夠交通部跟台鐵公司能夠將心比心向我們的民眾當他需要緊急救護的時候我們或許現在我們有說緊急救難這個救災的法案依現場指揮官可以去做一些緊急的處置但是我們的配套就在那邊啊我們的車輛就是過不了啊"},{"start":5788.345,"end":5795.583,"text":"是吧今天我們我不知道但下放左來比如說我們現在跨越鐵道居民就在對面我們車要怎麼過去"},{"start":5797.21,"end":5797.25,"text":"議員陳俊宇"},{"start":5823.009,"end":5848.989,"text":"我想我這樣跟委員報告啦齁,鋼鐵如果以救護車來講的話,那其實兩邊的道路還必須要有。那這部分地方政府,如果說光我們已經開個平交道,也許我可以來考量一下怎麼開平交道,但因為就是沒辦法開平交道,所以才有這個問題。以前其實是一個道路啦,它以前是一個道路,大家都可以走,就是因為我們台鐵做好了之後,就早年以前的事啦不可考了,變成路沒辦法走了。"},{"start":5850.038,"end":5851.56,"text":"議員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":5876.182,"end":5904.105,"text":"需要做的配套我們就準備好,如果他們有需要的時候就可以馬上來使用。以上好不好,以上馬上我們的市長跟董事長,謝謝。謝謝委員。好,謝謝廖先翔委員發言。下一請黃建豪委員發言。黃建豪委員發言。徐委員,你等一下急不急?不是啊,因為我想12點啊。"},{"start":5907.342,"end":5920.648,"text":"你還是質詢完,到你為止還是怎麼樣?到你為止齁?那你再等一下好不好?好,繼續。好,謝謝主席齁,主席辛苦了。主席我先請這個次長跟我們鐵道局我們楊局長。委員好。"},{"start":5930.908,"end":5942.538,"text":"市長好 這個今台當然現在台中捷運局縣昨天正式的經過我們交通部的可能性研究的復旦所的通過那要來函報行政院審查目前的進度是這樣嗎對吧"},{"start":5943.995,"end":5963.58,"text":"市長,但是裡面有一些意見,那個臺東市府必須回去做一點修正。對,因為我昨天也是,會議開始前也去跟這個次長,那還有包含說禮拜一的時候我們也去這個交通委員會也到了這個現地來這個來辦,來會商來會刊。那其實裡面最主要的核心問題應該就是指這個通道。"},{"start":5964.5,"end":5984.146,"text":"因為包含在禮拜一的時候跟禮拜二就昨天在討論的時候也提到這個通道部分本來是300多公尺按照他的計畫的內容300多公尺那其實口頭上交通臺中市交通局有跟本席說過會調整到80公尺那就交通部的了解這個300多公尺到80公尺的這個問題是卡在哪一個環節"},{"start":5985.899,"end":6003.78,"text":"所以昨天那個委員在跟我提說80我也覺得有點納悶我跟你講說我的訊息還是300公尺320公尺我我那時候我掌握到還是這樣子所以80我是不曉得為什麼會有80這個數字來那昨天你們審查會沒有沒有他提出來是320啊"},{"start":6004.781,"end":6005.742,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":6020.619,"end":6044.23,"text":"三百二到八十的這段好像牽涉到所謂的這個鐵路就是台鐵公司或鐵路局的用地會有這個問題所以到時候我是不是也拜託我們市長也拜託我們這個鐵道局一併的來協助市政府來跟這個鐵道局或是說鐵路公司來協調這件事情是我跟委員報告這個事情即使昨天在討論因為大概其他委員就是審議委員對這個轉稱的距離意見有比較多一點"},{"start":6048.592,"end":6052.553,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案案件事宜。」"},{"start":6072.62,"end":6075.163,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":6094.423,"end":6099.564,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案 案件及後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案 案件及後續事宜。」"},{"start":6116.408,"end":6142.442,"text":"一開始沒那麼貴但是一直拖拖拖了十年之後就會變成現在這個兩塊兩千億的這個規模那現階段我們雖然是估一千三百九十六億那如果越晚動工我想那個後續的經費就會提升越多所以在目前這個看起來路線上路線裡面沒有太大問題就剩下這些節點的部分尤其在台中車站這一塊我們是可以拜託次長也拜託到時候鐵道局跟到時候鐵路公司"},{"start":6142.862,"end":6171.716,"text":"二﹗大家一起來這個就公稱面只要可行的部分把法規能夠來放寬是沒問題好那接下來談到今天的這個主題啊今天其實要談到這鐵路法的修法那雖然這不是我的選區這個是這個山雕嶺車站的部分但是其實我也接過民眾的陳情因為我看了很多李明出遊都會選擇來山雕嶺這邊來觀光那但是都有遇到一個障礙就是說的確就如同廖先翔委員所提的這個因為他的"},{"start":6172.961,"end":6174.583,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":6198.062,"end":6225.511,"text":"各位報告,如果是橫越的部分我想應該處理上會比較簡單啦齁,就是做個類似平交道這種方式大概可以,但是那個三爪西橋那個部分會比較麻煩,因為它的平行,那它那個通道其實是在所謂的鐵路進攻裡面,鐵路進攻,鐵路那個委員知道它的速度比較快,煞車距離很長,它也沒辦法像車子說我看到人我閃一下,沒辦法閃,所以這個對行車是"},{"start":6227.412,"end":6230.617,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":6243.975,"end":6263.221,"text":"市長今天提出這個修法那當然我知道我看交通部的意見基本上你們是不希望修這個法啦但是你們有沒有盤點過有點再給我一分鐘時間有沒有盤點過到底全台灣有多少類似的這樣子的車站的狀況因為包含最近有個時事新聞喔是這個不是山頂是暖暖車站這個山坡"},{"start":6264.121,"end":6281.869,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6282.253,"end":6282.273,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":6297.278,"end":6299.299,"text":"一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、"},{"start":6327.233,"end":6331.618,"text":"一個月,我們一個月我們先去盤點出來。好,謝謝市長。是。好,謝謝,謝謝委員。好,謝謝。接下來請有號委員。"},{"start":6367.724,"end":6373.338,"text":"謝謝,謝謝大會主席。那有請我們的五次長。好,請五次長。謝謝。"},{"start":6383.446,"end":6398.654,"text":"議員好 市長好那延續著剛才廖先翔委員以及黃建浩委員所提到的那不僅是山嘉嶺或是剛才暖暖車站的這樣子的下坡害機車衝進去這個鐵道的這個軌道上那其實剛才這個部分"},{"start":6399.614,"end":6423.789,"text":"本席也想要跟介豪委員提的建議來講是希望台鐵能夠針對這個全台的部分做通盤檢討之外像剛才的那種路口其實像這些機車他們如果前面有個防撞桿在這個路面上的話其實是對於這個機車有時候或是行人他們在走的這種危險的這種區塊或是路段的時候其實會多一份保障"},{"start":6424.409,"end":6442.107,"text":"所以是希望說就是在這次的通盤檢討過程中也能夠針對這些特殊的路口啊那去做進行防務設施的一個設置檢討完了之後就直接進行改善相信這樣對於民眾還鄰近鐵道旁邊的話會可以多一份保障這樣可以嗎是應該"},{"start":6443.368,"end":6443.528,"text":"主席"},{"start":6465.256,"end":6465.396,"text":"二、審查．一．一．一"},{"start":6481.201,"end":6482.081,"text":"所以我跟委員報告"},{"start":6509.787,"end":6529.97,"text":"沒有錯,從路網來看,極限這一條線應該是要到南投是比較方便的,比較適合的一條線。所以在昨天審查會議的時候,我其實有問台中市政府,你有沒有延伸到南投的這樣的機制。他們給我的答案是沒有。"},{"start":6530.831,"end":6556.393,"text":"那我就跟他提醒那這樣不行喔我覺得這可能要跟那個安德魯先生討論一下因為不管是不是一車到底或者是不一樣系統都沒有關係但是你那個站這個端末站你就是要這樣預留這樣一個延伸的機制才可以要不然等他做完以後好你這邊要做了結果他這邊沒有地方接那就轉秤就是很不方便這會造成對一個交通運輸是一個大敗筆"},{"start":6558.843,"end":6575.649,"text":"所以昨天有提醒那個臺東市政府這部分要考慮那最後謝謝市長因為這部分我跟建豪委員也會再跟就是包括是許縣長或是魯市長都會再做一些溝通但是在裡面的居中協調也是要麻煩交通部因為這個部分"},{"start":6576.229,"end":6577.049,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":6597.314,"end":6613.029,"text":"因為南投縣他的整體路網還沒出來,這可能要請南投縣政府那個整體路網趕快送出來,才能知道說這樣的方式對不對。好,那這個到時候合訂的不能再麻煩,那縣府這邊會加速趕快來去做一個提報。是,謝謝委員。"},{"start":6617.172,"end":6642.744,"text":"謝謝市長那最後的話本席在針對這個我們的鐵路公司那以及就是台鐵就是包括從這邊要肯定一件事就是在目前來講的話有鐵路公司這邊有針對集集他們的攤商在租金減免的部分在協助讓集集火車的這個倉庫他們能夠讓許多攤商他們來個協助那原因是在於因為現在"},{"start":6644.225,"end":6660.002,"text":"一路要做一個整修啦那市長你一定是也清楚因為那是鐵路背景那在這個整修的過程中那其實會造成像是現在濁水站之後的所有煤站將近一年半的攤商是沒有辦法來去做行駛的"},{"start":6660.683,"end":6661.684,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答第二案僅進行詢答"},{"start":6686.966,"end":6714.954,"text":"三、補貼措施或是其他面向的一些協助措施當然是請部長跟董事長這邊在座幫忙謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝永浩委員下一位請徐副科委員發言徐副科委員發言完就休息謝謝主席有請我們吳次長"},{"start":6716.85,"end":6740.924,"text":"市長請市長午安我想我們交通部這兩天有召開一個行人道安的記者會有公布了今年一到四月份屏東縣在三十日還有機車及高齡死亡的三項的道安表現的問題那部長"},{"start":6743.846,"end":6744.106,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":6766.106,"end":6766.787,"text":"二、審查．一．一．一"},{"start":6797.795,"end":6815.923,"text":"委員好 報案的部分部裡面目前的協助當然有一個在工程部分我們有經費協助就是一個4年400億我們跟這部共同攜手然後補助地方在交通工程方面的改善那另外"},{"start":6817.384,"end":6841.497,"text":"也有一些宣導的部分那宣導部分我們當然也有經費在依註那當然整個道安的工作其實是各個部會都要共同努力啦包括警政的部份也有那整個如果說他們整個道安表現的不好因為我們每個月都會召開我們的聯繫匯報如果發現整個他們整個道安表現不好的時候我們會請他們來在我們聯繫匯報做報告"},{"start":6846.14,"end":6867.02,"text":"這個我還是要提醒交通部這個長期以來我們很多的交通建設這個縱北、青南、縱六都然後非六都這個都好像分不到堂吃這個非常非常的嚴重那我想針對這樣一個屏東縣我們很多的人行環境的改善是需要我們交通部挹注更多資源這也要整體考慮我們的財政問題"},{"start":6868.882,"end":6872.664,"text":"議員廖先翔等18人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案件事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案件事宜。」"},{"start":6894.497,"end":6921.393,"text":"五、今年四月份我們有安排我們的交通委員到仿寮車站來進行考察那當時我們有提出一個仿寮車站的一個大平台計畫那請教一下次長我們目前的進度我想這個整個屏東縣的前線高架齁前面大概有一段已經高架了齁那仿寮車站部分高架我們現在目前是大概是這樣齁把它放到我們的南回線型改善裡面去做齁"},{"start":6922.233,"end":6943.005,"text":"那這個目前的可行性我們已經在4月的時候已經提報到行政院審查。我想後續我們再會在協調行政院盡速來核定這個計畫。這也要拜託高農博要加快速度啦。龍山跟中山這兩個評價到我這個事故跟我們的這個等待的時間都非常的等候。是。還在做我們的飲水的問題啦。是。在這裡我也要拜託楊局長。局長。"},{"start":6946.147,"end":6968.798,"text":"最後再除了訪寮這個高架以外吼我們還有崁嶺南州這邊的鄉親因為這都發生死亡的事故案件吼真的要一併拜託一併考量進去啦吼阿不然這樣到時也是一樣像那些雲霄飛車高高低低這樣起起伏伏真的也是對我們的交通平權很不公平啦這點是不是可以請部裡面再評估一下是"},{"start":6971.861,"end":6991.159,"text":"另外剛剛針對我們觀光署有委員提案針對我們政訓獎勵補助的方案除了花蓮、台東之外要納入宜蘭我記得上次本席在質詢我們觀光署的時候我們觀光署也是很不尊重"},{"start":6993.081,"end":6993.761,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答 »:"},{"start":7022.031,"end":7022.271,"text":"休息10分鐘"},{"start":7068.729,"end":7072.212,"text":"三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑"},{"start":7086.681,"end":7114.531,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7116.479,"end":7117.782,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":7142.483,"end":7145.742,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7171.988,"end":7200.111,"text":"三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑"},{"start":7250.896,"end":7255.799,"text":"三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑"},{"start":7267.005,"end":7288.655,"text":"三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑"},{"start":7326.443,"end":7345.897,"text":"三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑"},{"start":7352.875,"end":7380.682,"text":"三﹑三﹑四﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑"},{"start":7382.278,"end":7398.487,"text":"三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑"},{"start":7409.002,"end":7413.879,"text":"三﹑四﹑五﹑五﹑六﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑"},{"start":7421.206,"end":7427.451,"text":"三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑"},{"start":7470.783,"end":7487.818,"text":"三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑"},{"start":7496.485,"end":7517.886,"text":"第二案僅進行詢答 ︎一﹎一﹎一﹎一﹎一﹎一﹎一﹎"},{"start":7531.393,"end":7534.574,"text":"三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑三﹑"},{"start":7536.135,"end":7559.986,"text":"陳委員說叫我不要講齁 哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":7561.277,"end":7582.565,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":7586.476,"end":7605.128,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7605.308,"end":7606.869,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":7641.903,"end":7643.704,"text":"好,下一位請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":7650.851,"end":7654.434,"text":"謝謝主席。再次感謝。我們請台鐵。台鐵。董事長。"},{"start":7669.966,"end":7697.333,"text":"你還謝謝丘陸法委員謝謝丘陸法委員謝謝那那個委員好董事長好那那個次長您坐著聽啦那個我請教一下那個台鐵就是董事長上一次有一堆母子他們那個現在我們是一計一票嘛那他帶了兩個小孩事實上第一個是五子化那第二個就是說帶小孩真的不方便結果我們站路員"},{"start":7698.513,"end":7698.693,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":7718.873,"end":7747.521,"text":"公委員報告像這種情形的話通常我們都會建議旅客要取實體票當然而不要把票擺在手機裡面對然後代取我現在就是說我們基本上當然一機多票這是我們的希望那台鐵現在可能沒有辦法馬上做到但是我說這個媽媽第一個我說五子化時代第二個帶了兩個小朋友他就是用電子購票"},{"start":7748.837,"end":7771.129,"text":"那是不是台鐵這個機制你們可以稍微就是說這不是全面說大家都是一雞多票但是至少比如說他帶著12歲以下的小孩或者是他帶了愛心就是長輩甚至是有一些障礙殘障等等的像這種比較特殊的案例那台鐵是不是有一個通融的空間"},{"start":7773.068,"end":7796.582,"text":"各位委員報告像剛剛委員所提的這種特殊案例我們可以去研議一下對所以我就希望說那個董事長這個真的是很特殊啦我帶了一個殘障的長輩或者我帶了一個小朋友帶了兩個小朋友12歲以下我就是要五指化嘛啊我就是要方便嘛就你叫我一定非去買實體票不可而且坦白講他們都已經買了坦白講這對拇指是當場還補票啦"},{"start":7799.417,"end":7800.498,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":7819.137,"end":7833.107,"text":"第二個呢那個鐵路便當節其實辦得還不錯要給台鐵一個鼓勵啦這個真的是蠻好的那也很多人很喜歡所以我是有一個簡單的要求就是希望有沒有機會移師高雄"},{"start":7834.608,"end":7856.257,"text":"這跟會員報告那個先前我們有想過了可是高雄實在是他場地有點小那現在高雄站鐵道局已經很努力的在要把兩邊接起來那接起來以後那個場地的容量就會倍增"},{"start":7857.017,"end":7879.21,"text":"好,那我們會考量在高雄再來推。謝謝,我們先看下一張。其實我們很多臺北的活動以前都不重視高雄。那不只是台鐵,我是說所有的活動以前都在集中在臺北為主。你像臺灣文博會,我108年要求,欸111年,欸真的到高雄辦了。"},{"start":7880.78,"end":7888.836,"text":"那米其林餐廳我109年要求111年曾經也成功爭取到米其林到高雄了"},{"start":7889.827,"end":7915.401,"text":"那金曲獎其實在當年我有要求7月在那邊辦那那一年的11月我在總質詢的時候也再次要求說是不是金曲獎三金都有機會連輪到高雄舉辦所以這個是我們高雄人的盼望所以這個鐵路便當節明年的如果不能完全到高雄辦是不是可以辦一些快閃的活動或者是雙展區的活動有一部分讓高雄有參與的機會"},{"start":7917.102,"end":7919.944,"text":"第三件呢我們台鐵招人一直都招不滿對不對"},{"start":7941.9,"end":7958.059,"text":"對你看底下的資料我們今年招936人結果正取756人那台東電力斷更慘我們要找7人只有一個人來報名然後那個人還沒入局那為什麼台鐵會這麼缺少人員"},{"start":7960.765,"end":7963.026,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":7977.854,"end":7994.201,"text":"所以我們其實要求就是說包括我們的高鐵的活動包括所有的公司民間公司大公司的一些福利台鐵可以研究一下如何來創造我們台鐵員工的福利才不會有這個員工遭過我們的情況這個台鐵是不是可以盡快來來趕快來規劃"},{"start":7996.962,"end":8023.49,"text":"好,因為其實我們也有規劃了,就是尤其是我們公司新建中的從業人員。OK,因為時間已經到了,所以就是說今天6月1號這個成功比照高鐵放寬眷屬優待,這已經OK了。那包括親子文康,包括從業人員的薪資標準化,進修福利等等,希望說台鐵可以做一個整體的規劃來提高員工的福利,增加我們台鐵的員工進來的機會,好不好?好。好,希望能夠趕快努力。好,謝謝。"},{"start":8028.419,"end":8045.492,"text":"謝謝許祝傑委員發言蕭惠行李崑澤召委發言謝謝陳雪生召委請一下次長還有杜董事長我先請教一下杜董事長"},{"start":8055.924,"end":8076.958,"text":"針對台鐵因為台鐵的員工跟董事長大家在積極的努力現在我看2024年的一至三月月平均的搭乘人數已經到達65萬人次這已經是有超過疫情之前的這樣的一個同期的水準"},{"start":8078.303,"end":8105.87,"text":"其實搭乘的人數這麼多安全還是我們台鐵所要負起的一個最重要的基本責任所以我記得我在2013年在交通委員會我就針對當時的土石流的狀況就積極的要求台鐵針對土石流以及隧道口等等必須裝設相關的不管是邊坡或者是落石"},{"start":8106.53,"end":8108.211,"text":"議員廖先翔等18人擬具〈鐵路法第十四條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":8134.212,"end":8138.494,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":8149.78,"end":8175.774,"text":"當初我記得在6月27號交通委員會雖然當天排的是智慧港口的這樣的一個議題但是我就提起相關的這6月21號所發生事件那我就想起2013年我所提的這些邊坡、隧道、土石流相關的這些偵測的系統那當時我還不知道有所謂的19分鐘的這樣的一個爭議的議題"},{"start":8179.537,"end":8206.363,"text":"那我提的時候我還特別請教台鐵的公務處的處長他有來我說一個監看的人員要看十幾個螢幕這樣人力夠嗎他還說足夠我嚇了一跳我看了十幾個這樣的一個螢幕啊竟然你還說人力足夠一天好像是兩班是不是來杜董事長說明一下"},{"start":8207.611,"end":8225.716,"text":"呃,跟委員報告齁,其實剛剛委員提及的監看的人主要是在我們現場公務段的值班室。在行控中心嘛齁。行控中心的話那更多,那就他有275台攝影機。對。所以不管是行控中心或者是值班室,呃。"},{"start":8227.657,"end":8247.108,"text":"就落實告警的部分他必須要有一個告警的作用才能夠提醒這個監看的人員去注意那一台告警的攝影機但是我們看土石流的這個攝影機我們的機制不是這樣我們的機制是看雨量"},{"start":8248.212,"end":8276.315,"text":"看雨量,雨量到達一個預警值的時候那我們段長或副段長就會通知那個監看人員說你現在把畫面雕出來仔細的看那這樣的機制更有問題了那你說要看雨量而且啊是有告警之後你們才會去注意相關的這樣的一個監視系統明明那個土石流崩下來的樣子啊我們一點反應跟機制啊相關的這樣那個告警的作用都沒有辦法起作用嗎"},{"start":8277.236,"end":8282.12,"text":"所以跟委員報告我們現在的改善我們現在已經偵測那個電視機的畫面然後要求對土石流的這一塊它畫面必須常態在畫面上讓這個監控人員方便來去看監視"},{"start":8305.636,"end":8327.124,"text":"另外就是偵探人員我們也有增加我2013年就提議相關的隧道要注意相關的路段土石流邊坡落石等等那經過了10年以上的時間還是發生這樣的一個很大的漏洞這個必須要有更具體的一個作為"},{"start":8329.977,"end":8351.731,"text":"董事長你的責任很大這個必須要承擔起這樣的責任必須把相關的安全系統建置來把它完成因為現在搭乘的人數已經越平均每天達到65萬人次以上了65萬旅客的安全是不容出狀況出問題的"},{"start":8355.325,"end":8369.457,"text":"市長說明一下市長跟委員報告很抱歉對6月21號這個事情真的是發生這樣不幸真的很抱歉我想代表交通部來跟社會大眾表示道歉那其實剛剛提到的"},{"start":8370.987,"end":8372.288,"text":"議員廖先翔"},{"start":8396.374,"end":8426.374,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":8426.434,"end":8426.854,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":8455.748,"end":8481.838,"text":"下一位請邱若凡委員會,的話你可以多講一點沒關係齁你盡量講啊規則慢走啊謝謝主席,請交通部武次長還有鐵路公司董事長、朱董事長"},{"start":8483.814,"end":8485.759,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8494.594,"end":8519.268,"text":"市長、董事長今年2月4號的時候台鐵公司表示配合國防演訓的運輸需求正在積極的研議還有改進軍運的方式還有強化軍運的效能滿足國軍未來演訓的準備還有各類運輸的計畫和目標這邊要請教董事長還有市長那在演訓之後我們有研議出改進軍運的方式還有強化軍運效能的作為有哪一些"},{"start":8520.892,"end":8540.037,"text":"各位報告其實我們對於軍運的這個區塊我們都有固定的跟軍方那邊的一個研討會議都是固定成員的那我們每一季我們都會定期去檢討那包括演訓在內"},{"start":8541.345,"end":8557.203,"text":"那我們跟軍方的合作也不只是軍運而已我們在大型演訓的部分我們包括有防毒啊或者是救護啊或者是後送像這種的話我們通常我們也都會納在我們的那個演習的裡面"},{"start":8559.048,"end":8586.142,"text":"二月四號這個演訓之後那有沒有實際的驗證在限定期間內可以一定規模以上的跨區運送能力可以做到什麼樣的程度這個要看軍方提需求軍方提需求所以在那一次演訓之後台鐵跟我們國防部沒有實際的在那一次以後我們例行性的還是照樣很多的一個這個實施例行性的一個軍事運送"},{"start":8590.428,"end":8594.429,"text":"國軍出動救災和其他天然災害的運輸有沒有強化運輸的效率?"},{"start":8604.392,"end":8621.636,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案 案件及後續爭議調閱專案小組．一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案 案件及後續爭議調閱專案小組．一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案 案件及後續爭議調閱專案小組．一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條條文修正草案 案件及後續爭議調閱專案小組．"},{"start":8632.278,"end":8649.343,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":8650.124,"end":8664.237,"text":"三、市長拍板江平鎮在南宜180公尺並與捷運局限共站。請教市長對於我們桃園市府江平鎮在南宜的目前的設置的意見是如何?"},{"start":8665.34,"end":8685.161,"text":"我想這個事情可能要比較謹慎來做評估為什麼第一個他這裡是已經合定的計劃我的工程連續幣已做了一部分如果我要已的話我這邊做的工程可能會有一些浪費那市長您知道台灣市政府在5月24號的時候有發函堅勤鐵道局嗎"},{"start":8689.743,"end":8711.559,"text":"但是這個是如果依照行政核定的計畫當然必須要因為他那個評估還沒有很正式的去討論所以對我來講一個重大建設我還必須要往前走因為那時候我們臺灣市政府有發函嗎就是要請暫緩建請暫緩憑證有酒站的工程那後來處理的進度"},{"start":8712.567,"end":8739.802,"text":"目前我們是認為這個要先評估完比較明確以後再來看到底要怎麼做要不然我現在就是那個南乙的這車站南乙180公尺的事情因為這個如果沒有把它評估清楚我現在就貿然的停工其實對整個計畫是會有影響的因為現在剛我們現在知道我的供給期收到我的招標不順其實都往後延了我的經費也都往上增了"},{"start":8740.362,"end":8754.932,"text":"那評估的時間大概需要多長的時間?對啊,但是我現在,我們現在剛講這個評估,現在就是要看那個台灣四十五他給我們什麼樣的資訊。因為之前跟我們講又是450,然後又是250,現在從報上又看是180。"},{"start":8759.704,"end":8761.726,"text":"接下來可能會面臨到拆除重工的情形。"},{"start":8780.286,"end":8805.777,"text":"但是我跟委員報告其實我也有接到住在那個地方的反應說不要遷移所以這個當然是要整體去做一個評估我想跟委員做這樣一個報告但是因為為什麼後來會這樣子提出因為他的道路他的路寬只有12公尺而且他非常狹窄腹地不足那未來通車之後也會造成地方的交通問題會造成衝擊所以市政府才做提出"},{"start":8807.313,"end":8807.574,"text":"請陳雪山委員"},{"start":8836.416,"end":8849.902,"text":"請陳學生委員諮詢先找一下杜董事長好不好?請杜董事長杜董早,早上委員諮詢,你們招不到員工"},{"start":8862.059,"end":8889.111,"text":"你一個月3萬塊錢的機工機工人員要有證照他會來嗎?然後晚上還要加班所以你們要去檢討為什麼找不到人?現在大家事業很多啊你們要修改一下嘛可能錢賺的不夠多就怕財務赤字是不是這樣?這個我們已經有在檢討了還有那個竹男啊前幾天找你竹男那個"},{"start":8890.623,"end":8891.183,"text":"主席是不是請次長?吳次長請吳次長"},{"start":8919.369,"end":8938.244,"text":"市長早,今天你代理部長在這邊接受質詢,我出幾個題目給你,你一定無法回答我。我想請問你台灣現在是不是在鬧文化大革命?我早上從這邊樓梯上來,那邊樓梯下去都在講陳雪生怎麼樣怎麼樣?"},{"start":8948.035,"end":8969.301,"text":"我在唱紅啦,很像我在唱紅目前我們金門馬祖金門通水陳俊宇也遭殃也在罵這個馬祖那邊我們缺工缺料交通部你要不要解決我們很多的交通建設馬路建設沒有石頭啊毛腳石沒有啊尤其是離島中的離島這個石頭啊"},{"start":8973.373,"end":8993.712,"text":"一運去要幾十噸大船才去,小船不去,小船又不能靠港,有安全的顧慮。那麼這個石頭要去的話一定水漲船高嘛,要用非常高的費用才能買下這個石頭。有人要去標這樣的工程嗎?沒有嘛。所以我這樣講給你聽你就懂了嘛。那這個石頭怎麼辦?要不要從大陸來?"},{"start":8994.909,"end":9024.481,"text":"台灣沒有大陸來嗎?現在那個石頭上面有沒有寫中國製造我就不懂了可能每一顆石頭要驗是不是中國製造DNA把它弄好不然的話不能用那個石頭裡面含什麼成分以後房子會垮下來台灣很像是個鬼島很奇怪把人家講成都是魔鬼我們缺工缺料還有跟交通部有關係的是觀光業者哀嚎遍野你看"},{"start":9024.946,"end":9053.285,"text":"本來今天要審救國團的條例一萬四千家一萬四千家的旅館業者要來集體抗議你們觀光署要去研究一下去協調一下吧小小一個救國團有多少單位所以我們總召提出來說救國團還給他我是說延長時間給他啦是不是這一點你們回去跟觀光署研究一下好不好還有旅館業者這個缺工啊"},{"start":9054.087,"end":9058.07,"text":"所以我們現在旅館業缺工缺得很厲害,還有營造業缺工缺得很厲害,能不能跟勞動部那邊做個協調,跨部會的協調好不好?這是我們主動來跟他接觸"},{"start":9083.72,"end":9105.715,"text":"前幾天來了22個彩線團成員,彩線團成員到馬祖來,這個算引清兵入關嗎?不算吧?是不是引清兵入關?我們到底是歡迎人家還是不歡迎人家?來了每一個人都把他當魔鬼,來了每一個人都把他當匪諜,誰要來?我們去大陸有這樣嗎?"},{"start":9107.236,"end":9125.745,"text":"去大陸有一個人被扣留,他在看色情片嘛,他自己違法了嘛。所以早上人家問我說,我們台灣的漁船被他們抓去了。我不與之平,為什麼勒?我對事情沒有了解清楚啊,我不方便去評論這個事情。他有沒有違法的我不知道啊。"},{"start":9126.573,"end":9139.899,"text":"如果違反了對方的法律,那沒有辦法。他違反了我們的法律,我們海軍一樣出去抓人嘛,是不是這樣?是,是這樣。所以我是覺得台灣這個社會為什麼搞成這個樣子?你把49台50台電視打開一看,本來執行NCC的題目,拿來問你。藍的罵綠的,綠的罵藍的,天天罵來罵去。藍的那一台永遠不會講綠的好話,綠的五六台絕對不會講他的好話。"},{"start":9155.558,"end":9176.572,"text":"你到南部去的話連TVBS都不見了這是什麼社會啊我們馬祖金門不停的跟對岸我們希望唱和我們希望唱和啊大家和氣嘛對不對對方本來就是我們的情緒啊那你這邊呢卻不...這邊你看我們台灣不時的跟人家在對抗"},{"start":9177.967,"end":9201.872,"text":"他要談統一我們談獨立我們不談獨立嘛希望他也不要談統一兩邊先不談這個事情嘛好好的尤其觀光署的部分你觀光署的政策你要把它列出來你到底現在要怎樣團進團出行不行欸你們回去要去考慮這個事情我不曉得是不是你分管了好觀光署是你分管了嗎欸不是觀光署是另外次長"},{"start":9202.686,"end":9218.073,"text":"部長今天因為沒來,早上我們總召副問題委員提到說部長去哪裡?部長昨天跟我告假去花蓮看災,他去了嗎?昨天確實去了,去了他昨天深夜又回來了。"},{"start":9219.315,"end":9246.097,"text":"深夜十一、二點回來了所以我今天早上得到的訊息還是昨天的他在花蓮看齋當然你跟...也沒什麼事啦副總長也沒什麼惡意啦只是說部長去各縣市看齋也好去幹什麼也好通知一下當地的縣市長嘛不要去分藍綠嘛好不好你分藍綠的話部長只是到綠的縣市去藍的縣市都不去了嗎也不好嘛好不好這一點拜託一下"},{"start":9250.509,"end":9278.582,"text":"我講到文化大革命啊,現在裝鬼嚇人的人很多啊無中生有的人也很多有病啊你懂了沒有社會上有病嗎?奇怪我們立法院裡面也有人有病啊有病去看病嘛,不要在那邊亂啊跑到立法院來亂,亂了嗎?亂哄哄的我是最不喜歡去唱紅的我在馬祖啊,我在馬祖出生馬祖以前就是大陸的嘛是不是?我跟在那裡啊"},{"start":9279.252,"end":9290.445,"text":"所以我都不想講說祖國不祖國的事情你非要逼得我去講我是台灣人啊那台灣人呢你又說我是中國豬是不是我到底是哪一個人我現在搞不清楚"},{"start":9292.093,"end":9317.226,"text":"活生生的一定把他一分為二幹什麼呢?沒有必要啦!所以我想說我們將來把陸客來啊你看我們22個來五龍五師熱烈歡迎我們同胞到馬祖來兩邊要合嘛打仗第一個是金門馬祖欸我們在前線吃炮彈吃了多少炮彈啊?你們沒吃過炮彈嘛對不對?沒有你們沒有吃過啊昨天我看了北韓一個影片啊從"},{"start":9320.123,"end":9348.372,"text":"十七歲到二十七歲沒有任何理由全民皆兵全部都是軍人二十七歲以後才是適婚年齡才開始結婚生小孩他們生小孩盡量生,生越多越好能夠生五個的話可以拿到金正恩同志的斧頭刀女生的話還有金戒指一個上面都有金正恩同志的肖像"},{"start":9349.827,"end":9378.013,"text":"人家是這樣子,我們一定要這樣搞嗎?不要把台灣撕裂了。所以我今天講這個是予以深藏。而是說希望我們官方署團或是客,你跟對方談嘛。你不然鄭文燦市長是民運黨很重要的一個資產,擺在那個海基會,他能夠跟對面談嗎?我現在就可以打電話給國台辦了,他打得動嗎?他打不通嘛,是不是?這個不是這樣談法的。所以我希望你們交通部跟對面,"},{"start":9379.52,"end":9406.978,"text":"能夠往來的,我們盡量能夠唱和,不要去有一些不好聽的話出來好不好?我想回去,你比他有機會跟部長在一起啊。好,我帶回去願意。部長新來的人也非常好好不好?是。你灌輸他一些觀念,灌輸他一些觀念好不好?不是說你幫他教他要唱和幹什麼,而是這個觀念很重要好不好?好。那今天謝謝你,好謝謝。好,謝謝委員。"},{"start":9411.528,"end":9415.311,"text":"謝謝陳學生委員下一位登記質詢的委員林國誠委員林國誠委員林國誠委員林國誠委員不在請張祺凱委員都想出現恰次的來次長請"},{"start":9444.335,"end":9457.128,"text":"主席你好主席你好 主席你請坐請坐 主席今天我要請拜託也要你很全力來支持嘉義兩個很重要很重要的建設這是我們嘉義縣市第一條捷運就是穿過為泰國的"},{"start":9461.713,"end":9465.495,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":9481.403,"end":9497.056,"text":"嘉義市政府又再度興奮給行政院跟交通部。五、能夠落實實現進行中央政府答應我們自己企業市民要前額補助。這個被打回票了幾次大家角力拉鋸了好幾次可是在5月7號"},{"start":9498.337,"end":9515.054,"text":"第二次又再度行文了。現在交通部重新再思考一下。這第一例是若是中央政府答應過第二次的專報的市民。第二次市民不是二等公民。當初同時有做過引導的臺中市的"},{"start":9516.374,"end":9539.711,"text":"三、高鐵路、高價化全部都是政府出的錢,是那假期期要比較負擔的比較多,請再思考一下。五月八號文又來了,好來,我們來講第一案,確定。假期期第一條捷運就是所謂的清軌,你看我們很卑微喔,我不像在台北這樣要做捷運喔,我們只是拉一條清軌而已,已經這麼卑微了。"},{"start":9541.173,"end":9556.147,"text":"那我特別回過頭來,這次清軌對嘉義縣市發展是那麼重要,不是覺得高通而已,對觀光整個產業發展也非常非常的這個重要。這個清軌啊,嘉義縣市辦這個說明會,我特別去參加,喔,嘉義市的管民叫市民,是很運動很運動的,一直說,"},{"start":9560.931,"end":9582.899,"text":"你去台北你要拜託交通部要專業給我們集齊我今天也拜託出定王好不好是要拜託要拜託我剛才講過了全台灣有那麼多的六都大的都市都有捷運了你看我們假期這麼卑微只是要一條清軌而已啊現在上起來我先跟大家講可信性研究報告在5月30假期這期已經通過了"},{"start":9587.013,"end":9613.46,"text":"然後嘉義縣市政府在六月二十四日他們辦了聯合推動小組這個會議也已經過了就是可行性評估中央說今天去評估看可以我們現在評估過了是可行的這當然也是中央答應地方來做的那通過完之後我們在六月二十八號已經把可行性評估送到交通部了現在拜託保證到初點你要做這件事情好不好第一我最近邀請你們來教他我們實地去看這是第一"},{"start":9616.121,"end":9631.099,"text":"就是這個事情運門交通部是由中央統籌來辦理他的綜合規劃包括一些細部的這個設計還有以後的主辦他的發包這個施工你們知道要拼自己的資金或是自己的環節負責的 他的財政跟人力"},{"start":9632,"end":9632.4,"text":"第二案僅進行詢答"},{"start":9652.091,"end":9679.178,"text":"那時候他們報告還沒起來,大家都有一些給他修正意見,初步給他意見,因為看到報告,我才有辦法給他比較正式的。那他現在如果剛剛那個委員講說6月28號上來的話,我想我們後面會依照程序,我們先叫鐵路局先審查。審查就看我們如果比較還缺什麼東西,然後這樣來進行。我想後續我們會依照程序來辦。"},{"start":9680.558,"end":9695.904,"text":"那至於說...第一就是程序加快啦!好不好!我們也要再久啦!拜託一個比較快的好不好!包括鐵路局這邊多幫忙!阿在這要倒三天我剛講過一個重點!不要拚喔!跟他之前我的管政府要去做!老實說!你中央來統籌來辦理好不好!現在是不是...我跟委員報告喔!因為像這種情形在台灣..."},{"start":9700.179,"end":9700.359,"text":"市長,我們來"},{"start":9729.628,"end":9730.969,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":9754.159,"end":9764.456,"text":"若是說這有一個很重要的事情就是中央你當初阿扁也做總統的時候你去跟我們加基齊的市民說的啊第二個當初不是跟我們加基齊講一個總統我們本來的規劃是地下化嘛對不對"},{"start":9765.734,"end":9792.776,"text":"市長你應該知道這個過程嗎?我知道你告訴我地下化花太多錢你往高價那我們就全額補助啊你不能說自己打臉然後跳票你這樣都對不起我們嘉義市的市民啊所以我特別回去跟市民說市長你不要去請署啊特別問大家跟他們拍拖回去拍拖回去現在五月份又來一份喔好不好?好好我來看一看看可以不可以全額補助另外一個工程的問題現在回到一個市內就是最近歐洲本來是2025年的三列就要通車嘛"},{"start":9793.937,"end":9794.857,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":9812.185,"end":9812.766,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9838.829,"end":9860.362,"text":"交通部長,可能你負責這鐵道吧,你還有這個鐵道,一起到嘉義我們實地來看一下好不好,我們實地勘查,那盡快把該做的這個工程還有這個審查進度再快一點點,讓嘉義有比較快的,有一條第一條捷運,有一個清軌,然後這個鐵路高加法能夠盡快完成。好,謝謝,我們所有人感恩,謝謝。好,謝謝主席。你兩個台語都會通齁?我有的聽,有的聽沒有啦。你聽沒有?"},{"start":9868.853,"end":9895.779,"text":"聽不懂我就跳過了好啦謝謝齊凱下一位請林沛翔委員發言,林沛翔林沛翔不在,黃國昌委員發言郭昌雄十分鐘夠嘛我還沒吃飯嘛,先跟你報告麻煩有請次長來次長"},{"start":9904.215,"end":9926.331,"text":"委員好市長好,連續上一次我到交通委員會執行的主題也就是台六十一自駕車的案子我們交通部的公路總局花了一億去做這個標案當初這整個標案一開始的時候"},{"start":9927.091,"end":9944.788,"text":"在台61西濱快速道路的點要去做自駕車的實驗大家很擔心因為那邊的車礦、車流非常的危險所以那個時候在推這個無人載具的時候挑台61來當作場域與實驗各方質疑非常的多"},{"start":9950.271,"end":9975.312,"text":"結果發生了大家最不願意發生的事情也就是真的在執行自駕車實驗的時候擦撞的自行車造成了受傷產生的事故啦那還好我上次質詢的時候我說老天有保佑老天有保佑真的還好只是擦傷沒有更嚴重的傷亡那上一次我對於交通部質詢的重點是說"},{"start":9977.173,"end":9998.721,"text":"你們針對台61支架案的實驗到底要不要繼續做這個評估會議應該要由第三方來做應該要由第三方來做因為如果是推動的機關又去參與所謂事後檢討的機制的話這個球員兼裁判嘛並不適合因此你們事後"},{"start":10000.396,"end":10025.121,"text":"上次被詢的是陳彥博次長他說他承諾應該要有個比較公正專業的第三方來進行調查那我今天要問的事情是說那接下來你們建議了經濟部邀請有公信力的第三方單位來檢討整個報告的內容那現在檢討的結果是如何可不可以說明一下"},{"start":10036.424,"end":10057.823,"text":"經濟部技術師吳仁宰暨科技辦公室實驗室的安全評估報告在113年6月13日已經召開。實驗評估的副審會議要等到經濟部的含重會議紀錄以後,他要辦法來帶行研議後續的辦理方向。以上報告。"},{"start":10058.712,"end":10076.272,"text":"所以你還不知道結論是不是現在如果聽起來現在還沒有真正的一個明確的事要怎麼說不過剛提到開放第三單位來檢視我想這是我們會走的一個方向我剛剛在上來備詢以前"},{"start":10077.458,"end":10100.41,"text":"我接到了經濟部來的公文這個計畫決定不予續寫不做了不做了最後的結論我剛上來的時候剛好收到經濟部他們傳來的公文說他們不做了現在問題來了問題來了交通部當初在推這個計畫的時候"},{"start":10102.13,"end":10123.457,"text":"大家都勸告你們不要在台六之一做結果出事了現在經濟部委決定不要再繼續做下去了不要再繼續做下去了那我的問題就來了這一億元的標案怎麼辦現在付了多少錢接下來該怎麼辦"},{"start":10126.192,"end":10148.419,"text":"這不是一百萬的標案這不是一千萬的標案這是一億的標案一億的標案當初建議交通部不要這樣搞啊你們一意孤行就執意要這樣搞下去現在出事了評估出來的結果我剛剛收到經濟部的來函說他們的評估是別再搞下去了"},{"start":10149.404,"end":10166.449,"text":"別再搞下去了就有兩個層次的問題第一個層次的問題第一個層次的問題現在進行到一半的標案要怎麼辦?付了多少錢?付了多少錢?付的錢要怎麼處理?"},{"start":10168.312,"end":10185.806,"text":"這是往後的第二個是往前回溯的當初在推動這件事情的時候不顧外界的質疑不顧外界的批判執意推動結果搞到今天虎頭蛇尾"},{"start":10187.972,"end":10203.502,"text":"讓費了一堆錢搞不下去還產生事故這件事情的檢討我看次長今天上來備詢因為這可能不是您主管的範圍所以你不是很清楚我不為難你但我剛剛所提的那兩個問題第一個"},{"start":10206.128,"end":10227.914,"text":"這個一億的標案到底付了多少錢接下來要怎麼處理第二個回溯回去當初的這個決策到底怎麼做的為什麼不聽外界的建議為什麼聽不進去外界的批判執意要推動推動到今天發生事情了"},{"start":10230.339,"end":10244.287,"text":"這件事情的檢討針對這兩個問題是不是拜託交通部一個禮拜之內提檢討報告跟你們後續打算要怎麼處理給我還有所有交通委員會的委員可以嗎?好可以一個禮拜之內好謝謝"},{"start":10261.648,"end":10269.975,"text":"下一位請蔡易瑜委員發言,蔡易瑜不在鄭天才委員發言,鄭天才不在請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":10291.561,"end":10303.074,"text":"好,謝謝主席我們陳學生、趙偉那有請我們五次長跟我們還有我們杜董事長杜董事長請"},{"start":10305.875,"end":10322.93,"text":"市長午安我想今天我們是審查這個鐵路法第四十條的相關修正草案那針對這個部分有規範到鐵路的機構就因這個行車事故及異常事件訂立相關的應變計畫那內容包括這個"},{"start":10325.913,"end":10328.295,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":10348.775,"end":10366.515,"text":"舉例來說在今年的3月23這個宜蘭市城站到宜蘭站之間就因為這個電纜線被剪斷那導致三十列次的這個延誤那累積延誤的時間達到498分鐘影響的旅客更高達3850位那"},{"start":10372.17,"end":10381.684,"text":"這個當下我覺得我們應該是要立即通報鐵道局之後隨時要報請查核並且啟動旅客的這個接駁應變計畫"},{"start":10385.216,"end":10408.863,"text":"那來協調我們這個公路客運業者即時的調度並安排這些旅客可以接駁轉乘讓因為各種事故所造成的這種污點對旅客的影響才能夠降到最低的這種傷害可是我覺得我們可能這部分都沒有去處理那我想請教次長我們對於這個啟動旅客接駁的應變計畫這個有沒有困難"},{"start":10412.192,"end":10428.268,"text":"這個沒有困難沒有困難在我們的鐵路法裡面其實第五十七條第四項其實就有規定這個部分那台鐵局現在他在每一個車站他其實都有跟接駁就是跟客業者有所謂的接駁這樣的一個開口企業我想這個"},{"start":10429.389,"end":10430.649,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":10447.955,"end":10458.023,"text":"另外我還是要針對這個部分就是政後的觀光振興部分那我一直以來從4月18號、4月13號、5月10號、6月7號、6月13號分別在我們院會或是委員會甚至書面資料的"},{"start":10464.108,"end":10467.372,"text":"第三（委員廖先翔等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":10481.97,"end":10498.656,"text":"從這個端午節連假旅客到宜蘭對半崁還有這個現在暑假了,定房率還是不到這個三成的情況來看我還是主張請交通部是不是可以嚴厲嚴厲嚴厲齁然後讓宜蘭縣納入這一次的這個症候補齋的對象"},{"start":10505.057,"end":10509.559,"text":"市長我跟您說明一下就是這個在6月13號我有當面跟我們李部長這個表達這個意思那部長也答應就是要"},{"start":10533.636,"end":10544.578,"text":"對於6月跟7月的定房率再做一個滾動式的檢討那到目前為止我還是跟我們交通部這邊做一個報告宜蘭縣的定房率還是不及三成"},{"start":10545.506,"end":10563.05,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案案案件事宜．一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案案件事宜．一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案案件事宜．一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十七條條條文修正草案案件事宜．一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十七條條條文修正草案案件事宜�"},{"start":10566.931,"end":10590.86,"text":"讓他們在這個政後之後能夠盡快來復甦啦所以我拜託次長就是把這個意見帶回去跟我們這個觀光署做一個詳細的討論之後是不是可以決定讓宜蘭縣仿效台東讓這個自由行的旅客還有這個團體這個旅遊的這些對象到宜蘭的時候可以使用我們的振興的這個補助"},{"start":10591.94,"end":10618.402,"text":"是我想跟委員報告齁這個部分我當然一定會帶回去跟請那個關主他們做研議啦齁當然跟委員報告我個人是覺得在一個地方觀光我覺得活動很重要若只是一味的補助的方式齁我覺得可能不會孤單啦所以應該是帶辦幾個活動讓他瞭解地方的特色在哪裡好玩在哪裡我相信再貴也有人要來對"},{"start":10619.81,"end":10626.526,"text":"依然現在辦活動絕對是沒問題啦是那因為0403依然花蓮台東是同樣一個這個觀光廊帶"},{"start":10628.973,"end":10654.366,"text":"那花蓮台東你像現在你觀看國道五號車流量已經明顯減少了國道五號明顯減少以前是這個暑假期間可能每天都塞車那現在看起來還是車輛在國道五號上寥寥無幾不會塞車的狀況所以就很明顯就是往台東花蓮的這個遊客也減少了所以相對的到宜蘭的遊客也會減少"},{"start":10655.567,"end":10674.138,"text":"因為你在旅行業者看來他們在一些套餐上面都是宜花東及日遊。阿你現在花蓮台東沒有人要去宜蘭就沒有人要去了。但是我跟委員報告齁我得到訊息就是國五的齁到宜蘭的這塊他的車輛跟"},{"start":10677.967,"end":10698.195,"text":"已經恢復到以前了,大概3萬9左右喔。不是,那應該是,不是每天啦。對,因為現在已經暑假期間嘛齁,暑假期間我想,包括依然也有什麼同萬節這些齁,我想這幾個活動辦出來,我覺得大家就會想去啦。這個我想這是,那當然我覺得政府也願意來協助齁,怎麼樣讓這個觀光把它促進啦。"},{"start":10700.037,"end":10708.088,"text":"還是拜託市長盡量幫我們宜蘭來爭取,看能不能再這一次納入。另外還有一點,我跟趙偉再借兩分鐘時間。"},{"start":10709.867,"end":10734.976,"text":"在宜蘭縣以前引以為傲西南有一個車站叫羅東車站當時這個車站應該算在民國73年來看應該是非常美麗的一個車站那現在被評比是全台灣最醜的車站繼這個中壢車站之後現在變羅東車站那因為在一些遊客他看起來這個羅東車站的外觀"},{"start":10738.274,"end":10762.227,"text":"有一點神似這個不是廟就是像那個殯儀館的感覺所以我覺得我們在現階段因為未來這個宜蘭鐵路要高架羅東車站應該也是做新的會建置新的車站那在現階段是不是有什麼辦法可以稍微整理一下不要讓這個最醜的車站跑到宜蘭"},{"start":10766.694,"end":10777.005,"text":"市長我們來想想看好不好因為審美觀念真的是見仁見智啦在民國73年齁"},{"start":10781.009,"end":10806.341,"text":"這個車站絕對是最富麗堂皇然後符合這個大家認為說是漂亮的一個車站可是這個時代變遷現在因為殯儀館的建築物也是仿效這種方式在建置所以我在此就建議說是不是短期內有什麼方式我們可以稍微做外觀的整理一下那長期的未來我們要設置的羅東車站一定要融入這個在地的元素"},{"start":10806.921,"end":10833.12,"text":"我們建置一個比較這個符合大家所期待的一個新的車站好這我請那個台鐵公司在那邊演一下看短期有沒有什麼我看起來我覺得還不錯啊還不錯我都覺得還不錯還可以啊不是最醜啊我覺得沒有最醜啊感覺董事長有沒有什麼想法看這個照片是只是覺得這個車站門面有點凌亂對需要整理"},{"start":10834.602,"end":10859.222,"text":"稍微整理一下啦,簡單整理一下啦好不好?好,那就以上就拜託我們交通部這邊幫忙啦齁。重點就是那個振興的部分啦,請次長再幫忙一下。好,以上謝謝。你把它改玄天上帝廟嘛。好,謝謝陳紀委的發言齁。開玩笑,大家開玩笑。"},{"start":10861.052,"end":10887.685,"text":"登記質詢委員均已經發言完畢,做以下的決定報告及詢談完畢。二、委員楊瓊英林國成所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分,請交通部盡速以書面答覆。針對鐵路法等二案做以下的決議,均令則其繼續審查。"},{"start":10890.455,"end":10896.196,"text":"本次會議本次的議程處理完畢散會辛苦了各位謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154529","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154529","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd6466adb2bab558c51363f5917c5295f57e5fc91d506e06f69b8b8693ecf6548c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"13:06:48 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13:16:44","影片長度":"00:09:56","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T13:06:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T13:16:44+08:00","duration":596,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":650,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（13時7分）好，謝謝主席陳雪生召委，有請伍次長還有杜董事長。"],["主席：請伍次長、杜董事長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長午安，今天我們是審查鐵路法第四十條的相關修正草案。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：針對這個部分，有規範到鐵路的機構，就行車事故及異常事件訂定相關的應變計畫，內容包括旅客疏散或是接駁的作業，希望在突發狀況時，能夠紓緩民眾搭乘的需求。但是從實務上來看，我們臺鐵公司常因事故發生之後，延遲的情況之下，都是形式上訂有旅客接駁的相關計畫，可是都只是選擇性的啟動。舉例來說，在今年的3月23日，宜蘭四城站到宜蘭站之間，就因為電纜線被剪斷，導致30列次的延誤，累積延誤的時間達到498分鐘，影響的旅客更高達3,850位。","我覺得當下我們應該要立即通報鐵道局之後，隨時要報請查核，並且啟動旅客的接駁應變計畫，來協調我們公路客運業者即時的調度，並安排這些旅客可以接駁轉乘，讓因為各種事故所造成的這種誤點，對旅客的影響和傷害才能夠降到最低。可是我覺得我們這部分可能都沒有去處理，我想請教次長，對於這個啟動旅客接駁的應變計畫，有沒有困難？"],["伍次長勝園：這個沒有困難。"],["陳委員俊宇：沒有困難？"],["伍次長勝園：在我們的鐵路法裡面，其實第五十七條第四項就有規定這個部分，現在臺鐵局在每個車站其實都有跟客運業者有所謂的接駁，這樣的一個開口契約，我想在啟動執行這件事情應該沒什麼問題才對。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那這部分就請我們交通部跟鐵道公司這邊，可以針對這部分去因應，避免旅客在那邊，有一些都會有抱怨的聲音。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，另外我還是要針對震後觀光振興部分，我一直以來，從4月18號、4月23號、5月10號、6月7號、6月13號，分別在我們院會或是委員會，甚至書面資料的質詢，都希望宜蘭縣能夠納入我們這次0403震後振興方案的行列，但遲遲等不到交通部一個比較明確的回復。因為從端午節連假，旅客到宜蘭對半砍，還有現在暑假了，訂房率還是不到三成的情況來看，我還是主張，請交通部是不是可以研議，讓宜蘭縣納入這一次震後補助的對象？"],["伍次長勝園：好，因為觀光署今天沒來，是不是容我帶回去請他們再研議一下，針對把宜蘭納進來做振興觀光的部分，是不是容我回去再請他們做一個研議？"],["陳委員俊宇：好，次長我跟您說明一下，在6月13號，我有當面跟李部長表達這個意思，那部長也答應要對於6月跟7月的訂房率，再做一個滾動式的檢討，到目前為止，我還是跟我們交通部這邊做一個報告，宜蘭縣的訂房率還是不及三成，暑假的部分。最近說有投入一些相關計畫的補助，看起來還是沒辦法達到，讓遊客有誘因可以到宜蘭的這個想法。","所以我還是主張，因為宜蘭縣所有觀光旅宿業殷殷期盼，希望能夠有一個對等的方式，讓他們在震後能夠盡快復甦啦！所以我拜託次長，把這個意見帶回去，跟觀光署做一個詳細的討論之後，是不是可以決定讓宜蘭縣仿效臺東，讓自由行的旅客還有團體旅遊的對象到宜蘭的時候，可以使用我們的振興補助？"],["伍次長勝園：是，這個部分我當然一定會帶回去，請觀光署他們做研議。但我要跟委員報告，在一個地方觀光，我覺得活動很重要，如果只是一味補助的方式，可能不會長久。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。"],["伍次長勝園：所以應該是要辦幾個活動，讓人瞭解地方的特色在哪裡、好玩在哪裡，我相信再貴也有人要來。"],["陳委員俊宇：對，宜蘭縣再辦活動絕對是沒問題啦！那因為0403，宜蘭、花蓮、臺東同樣一個觀光廊帶，像現在你觀看國道5號，車流量已經明顯減少了，以前是暑假期間可能每天都塞車。現在看起來，車輛在國道5號上寥寥無幾，不會有塞車的狀況，所以很明顯就是往臺東、花蓮遊客也減少了，相對的到宜蘭的遊客也會減少。因為在旅行業者看來，他們在一些套餐上面都是宜花東幾日遊，現在花蓮、臺東沒有人要去，宜蘭就沒有人要去了啊！"],["伍次長勝園：但是我跟委員報告，我得到訊息，就是國5到宜蘭的這塊，它的車輛已經恢復到以前，大概3萬9左右。"],["陳委員俊宇：不是，那應該不是每天啦！"],["伍次長勝園：對，因為現在已經暑假期間，包括宜蘭也有什麼童玩節這些，我想這幾個活動辦出來，我覺得大家就會想去。當然我覺得交通部也願意來協助怎麼樣促進觀光。"],["陳委員俊宇：好啦！還是拜託次長，就是儘量幫我們宜蘭來爭取，看能不能就在這一次納入。","另外還有一點，我跟召委再借兩分鐘時間，宜蘭縣以前引以為傲，在西南有一個車站叫羅東車站，當時這個車站在民國73年來看，應該是非常美麗的一個車站，現在被評比是全臺灣最醜的車站，繼中壢車站之後，現在變羅東車站。因為一些遊客，他看羅東車站的外觀，有一點神似……不是廟，就是像殯儀館的感覺。所以我覺得我們在現階段，因為未來宜蘭鐵路要高架，羅東車站應該也是做新的，會建置新的車站，那現階段是不是有什麼辦法，可以稍微整理一下，不要讓這個最醜的車站跑到宜蘭來，次長？"],["伍次長勝園：我們來想看看好不好？因為審美觀念真的是見仁見智啦！有的覺得它古色古香……"],["陳委員俊宇：在民國73年，這個車站絕對是最富麗堂皇，符合大家認為是漂亮的一個車站。可是時代變遷，現在因為殯儀館的建築物，也是仿效這種方式在建置，所以我在此建議，是不是短期內有什麼方式，我們可以讓外觀稍微的整理一下？長期的話，未來我們要設置的羅東車站，一定要融入在地的元素，建置一個比較符合大家所期待的新的車站。"],["伍次長勝園：好，我請臺鐵公司研議一下，看短期有沒有什麼方法，因為我看起來覺得還不錯啊！我都覺得還不錯，還可以啊！不是最醜啊！我覺得沒有最醜的感覺。"],["陳委員俊宇：董事長有沒有什麼想法？"],["杜董事長微：看這個照片只是覺得車站門面有點凌亂，需要整理。"],["陳委員俊宇：稍微整理一下啦！簡單整理一下啦！好不好？"],["杜董事長微：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：那以上就拜託我們交通部幫忙，重點就是振興的部分啦！請次長再幫忙一下，以上，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：你把它改玄天上帝廟嘛！好，謝謝陳俊宇委員的發言，開玩笑，大家開玩笑。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下的決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員楊瓊瓔、林國城所提書面質詢，列入記錄，並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請交通部儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 一) 委員陳俊宇等24 人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.31534375,"end":21.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.39034375,"end":23.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.79534375,"end":23.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.97221875,"end":26.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.575343750000002,"end":28.195343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.74784375,"end":31.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.48159375,"end":32.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.32534375,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.85846875,"end":73.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.35284375,"end":76.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.74471875,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.96284375,"end":93.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.39596875000001,"end":94.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.56034375,"end":105.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.82034375,"end":108.11534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.93784375000001,"end":135.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.02659375000002,"end":153.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.08284375000002,"end":158.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.57159375,"end":209.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.73659375000003,"end":220.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.75596875000002,"end":228.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.22721875000002,"end":245.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.74784375000002,"end":257.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.71221875000003,"end":269.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270.21659375,"end":316.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.44471875,"end":295.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.55534375,"end":317.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.97284375000004,"end":325.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.34284375000004,"end":336.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.56596875,"end":329.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.29471875,"end":343.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.03221875,"end":344.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.46659375,"end":349.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.05659375000005,"end":349.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.19159375000004,"end":353.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.68034375,"end":357.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.83159375,"end":366.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":367.04534375000003,"end":371.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.21784375000004,"end":370.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.52159375,"end":370.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.87159375000005,"end":376.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.71471875000003,"end":386.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":387.63284375,"end":391.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.39596875,"end":391.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.08784375000005,"end":396.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.01534375,"end":401.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.66846875000005,"end":406.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.85784375000003,"end":406.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.41034375000004,"end":408.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.76034375,"end":424.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":413.46846875,"end":414.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.58596875,"end":418.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.80034375,"end":423.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":424.36971875,"end":434.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.63971875000004,"end":424.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.90971875,"end":425.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.14596875,"end":425.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.77846875,"end":428.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":434.44409375000004,"end":441.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":441.64971875000003,"end":447.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.20159375000003,"end":449.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":449.12534375,"end":458.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.91284375000004,"end":461.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.10221875,"end":462.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.94596875,"end":464.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":465.89909375,"end":487.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":490.09784375000004,"end":490.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.53659375,"end":490.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.63784375000006,"end":497.38784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.96221875000003,"end":495.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.29909375000005,"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13:06:26","影片長度":"00:06:12","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T13:00:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T13:06:26+08:00","duration":372,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":633,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時）謝謝主席，麻煩有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好，延續上一次我在交通委員會質詢的主題，也就是台61自駕車的案子，交通部公路總局花了1億去做這個標案。當初整個標案開始的時候，在台61西濱快速道路做自駕車的實驗，大家很擔心，因為那邊的車況、車流非常的危險，所以當時在推這個無人載具的時候，挑台61來當作場域實驗，各方質疑非常的多。結果發生了大家最不願意發生的事情，也就是真的在執行自駕車實驗的時候，擦撞自行車造成受傷，產生了事故。我上次質詢的時候說老天有保佑，真的還好只是擦傷，沒有更嚴重的傷亡。","上一次我對交通部質詢的重點是，你們針對台61自駕案的實驗，到底要不要繼續做這個評估會議？應該要由第三方來做，因為如果是推動的機關，又去參與所謂事後檢討的機制，球員兼裁判並不適合。因此你們事後，上次備詢的是陳彥伯次長，他承諾應該要有一個比較公正、專業的第三方來進行調查。我今天要問的事情是，接下來你們建議經濟部邀請有公信力的第三方單位，來檢討整個報告的內容，現在檢討的結果是如何，可不可以說明一下？"],["傅副組長立祥：跟委員報告，這個案子經濟部技術司無人載具科技辦公室實驗室，安全評估報告在113年6月13號已經召開，評估的複審會議要等經濟部函送會議紀錄以後，才有辦法再行研議後續的辦理方向，以上報告。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你還不知道結論是不是？"],["傅副組長立祥：是。"],["伍次長勝園：現在聽起來還沒有真正明確要怎麼做，不過剛剛提到開放第三單位來檢視，我想這是我們會走的一個方向。"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛在上來備詢以前，接到了經濟部來的公文，這個計畫決定不予續行、不做了，最後的結論，我剛上來的時候剛好收到經濟部他們傳來的公文，說他們不做了。現在問題來了，交通部當初在推這個計畫的時候，大家都勸告你們，不要在台61做，結果出事了。現在經濟部也決定，不要再繼續做下去了。不再繼續做下去，那我的問題就來了，這1億元的標案怎麼辦？現在付了多少錢，接下來該怎麼辦？這不是100萬的標案，這不是1,000萬的標案，這是1億的標案。","當初建議交通部不要這樣搞，你們一意孤行，執意要這樣搞下去，現在出事了，評估出來的結果，我剛剛收到經濟部的來函，說他們的評估是別再搞下去了。這就有兩個層次的問題，第一個層次的問題，現在進行到一半的標案要怎麼辦？付了多少錢？付的錢要怎麼處理？這個是往後的。第二個是往前回溯的，當初在推動這件事情的時候，不顧外界的質疑，不顧外界的批判，執意推動，結果搞到今天虎頭蛇尾，浪費了一堆錢搞不下去，還產生事故。","這件事情的檢討，我看次長今天上來備詢，因為這可能不是您主管的範圍，所以你不是很清楚，我不為難你。但我剛剛提的那兩個問題，第一個，這1億的標案，到底付了多少錢？接下來要怎麼處理？第二個，回溯回去，當初這個決策到底怎麼做的？為什麼不聽外界的建議？為什麼聽不進去外界的批判，執意要推動？推動到今天發生事情了，這件事情的檢討，針對這兩個問題，是不是拜託交通部，一個禮拜之內提檢討報告，跟你們後續打算要怎麼處理，給我還有所有交通委員會的委員，可以嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：好，可以，這我們交辦。"],["黃委員國昌：可以齁？一個禮拜之內，好謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝國昌兄。","下一位請蔡易餘委員發言，蔡易餘、蔡易餘不在。","請鄭天財委員發言，鄭天財、鄭天財不在。","請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 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ext":"這是往後的第二個是往前回溯的當初在推動這件事情的時候不顧外界的質疑不顧外界的批判執意推動結果搞到今天虎頭蛇尾"},{"start":307.157,"end":322.693,"text":"讓費了一堆錢搞不下去還產生事故這件事情的檢討我看次長今天上來備詢因為這可能不是您主管的範圍所以你不是很清楚我不為難你但我剛剛所提的那兩個問題第一個"},{"start":325.289,"end":347.095,"text":"這個一億的標案到底付了多少錢接下來要怎麼處理第二個回溯回去當初的這個決策到底怎麼做的為什麼不聽外界的建議為什麼聽不進去外界的批判執意要推動推動到今天發生事情了"},{"start":349.523,"end":363.454,"text":"這件事情的檢討,針對這兩個問題是不是拜託交通部一個禮拜之內提檢討報告,跟你們後續打算要怎麼處理,給我還有所有交通委員會的委員,可以嗎?好,可以。一個禮拜之內。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154525","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154525","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd18ea4932f2d22c691363f5917c5295f57e5fc91d506e06f6a70d2b13d237a2c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:52:33 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主辦他的發包這個施工 你們知道他要拼自己的資金或是自己的完結付 老實講他的財政跟人力"},{"start":210.62,"end":211,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":231.373,"end":257.795,"text":"那時候他們報告還沒起來,大家都有一段時間讓他修正意見,初步給他意見,因為看到報告我才有辦法給他比較正式的。那他現在如果剛剛那個委員講說6月28號上來的話,我想我們後面會依照程序,我們先叫鐵路局先審查。審查就看我們還缺什麼東西,然後這樣來進行。我想後續我們會依照程序來辦。"},{"start":259.156,"end":274.501,"text":"那至於說...第一就是程序加快啦好不好我們運動那麼久了拜託一個比較快好不好幫我鐵路局這邊多幫忙啊第二要倒三天我剛講過一個重點不要拚喔跟他在這塊館政府要去做還是說你重量來統籌來辦理好不好現在是不是我跟委員報告因為像這種情形在台灣"},{"start":278.82,"end":278.96,"text":"市長,我們來"},{"start":308.248,"end":308.828,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":332.759,"end":343.086,"text":"若是說這有一個很重要的事情,就是中央你當初阿扁做總統的時候,你去跟我們加紀區的市民說的。啊第二,當初不是跟我們加紀區當一個總統,我們本來的規劃是地下化嘛對不對。"},{"start":344.355,"end":371.374,"text":"市長你應該知道這個過程嘛我知道你告訴我地下化花太多錢你往高架那我們就全額補助啊你不能說自己打臉然後跳票你這樣都對不起我們嘉義市的市民啊所以我每次回到街市民就問說市長你不要去請署啊每次就問到了跟他說趴在地上趴在地上現在五月份又來一份喔好不好好我來看看看能不能全額補助另外一個工程的問題現在回到一個市內就是最近遇到本來是2025年的三列就要通車嘛"},{"start":372.535,"end":373.476,"text":"二、審查（一﹗二、審查（一﹗二、審查（一﹗"},{"start":390.606,"end":391.387,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":417.429,"end":436.462,"text":"交通部長,可能你負責這鐵道嘛,你還有這個鐵道,一起到嘉義我們實地來看一下好不好?好。我們實地勘查,那盡快把該做的這個工程還有這個審查進度再快一點點,讓嘉義有比較快的有一條第一條捷運,有一個輕軌,然後這個鐵路高加法能夠盡快完成。是。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝主席。好,謝謝主席。哇,你們兩個台語都會通齁?"}]}},{"id":"154523","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154523","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd6503ea669f0333871363f5917c5295f547ffec24bc1a8f649e7493e4a071dcfb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"12:42:54 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12:52:25","影片長度":"00:09:31","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T12:42:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:52:25+08:00","duration":571,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（12時42分）先找一下杜董事長，好不好？"],["主席：請杜董事長。"],["陳委員雪生：杜董早。早上有委員質詢你們招不到員工，一個月3萬元的技工人員要有證照，晚上還要加班，他會來嗎？所以你們要檢討，你們要檢討為什麼找不到人，現在失業的人很多，你們要修改一下嘛！可能是錢賺得不夠多，害怕財務赤字，是不是這樣？"],["杜董事長微：我們已經在檢討了。"],["陳委員雪生：關於竹南那個報廢的房屋作為創生使用，這個很好啊！你在這邊就答應我會協助他們解決，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：好，在法規範圍內，我們會全力協助。"],["陳委員雪生：好、好、好，謝謝你，就這件事。","主席，是不是請伍次長？"],["主席：請伍次長。"],["陳委員雪生：次長早。"],["伍次長勝園：召委好。"],["陳委員雪生：今天你代理部長在這邊接受質詢，我出幾個題目給你，你一定無法回答我。我想請問你，臺灣現在是不是在鬧文化大革命？"],["伍次長勝園：我不曉得，這個文化的部分……"],["陳委員雪生：你答不出來？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員雪生：有沒有在鬧文化大革命？早上我從這邊樓梯上來、那邊的樓梯下去，都是在講陳雪生怎麼樣怎麼樣，好像是我在倡紅。目前就我們金門與馬祖而言，金門通水，陳玉珍也遭殃、也被罵，而我們馬祖那邊缺工缺料，交通部要不要解決？我們很多的交通建設、碼頭建設，沒有石頭啊！毛角石沒有啊！尤其是離島中的離島，這個石頭運進去要幾十噸，大船才去、小船不去，小船又不能靠港，有安全的顧慮。這個石頭要進去的話，一定是水漲船高嘛！要用非常高的費用才能買到這個石頭，有人要標下那個工程嗎？沒有嘛！我這樣講給你聽，你就懂了。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員雪生：這個石頭該怎麼辦？要不要從大陸來？臺灣沒有大陸來的嗎？現在石頭上有沒有寫中國製造，我就不懂了！可能每顆石頭都要驗是不是中國製造，DNA要弄好，不然就不能用，那個石頭裡面可能含有什麼成分，以後房子會垮下來。臺灣很像是個鬼島，很奇怪！把人家講得都是魔鬼啊！我們除了缺工缺料，與交通部有關係的就是觀光業者哀鴻遍野，你看，本來今天要審救國團的條例，1萬4,000家的旅館業者要來集體抗議耶！你們觀光署要研究一下、協調一下吧！小小一個救國團有多少單位？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員雪生：所以我們總召提出救國團要還給它，我是提出延長時間給它啦！是不是？這一點你們回去與觀光署研究一下，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是，這個部分，我們回去後會請觀光署……"],["陳委員雪生：還有旅館業者缺工的問題，也拜託你們協調勞動部。"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["陳委員雪生：我們夏天的客人滿了，冬天沒生意、冬天沒生意啊！冬天就不需要這些人，但是夏天比較需要，所以我們的旅館業現在缺工缺得很厲害，還有營造業也缺工缺得很厲害，能不能與勞動部那邊進行跨部會的協調，還有行政院工程會？"],["伍次長勝園：可以，我們會主動與它接觸。"],["陳委員雪生：前幾天馬祖來了22個踩線團的成員，這個算是引清兵入關嗎？不算吧！是不是引清兵入關？我們到底是歡迎人家還是不歡迎人家？是不是？把來的每一個人都當成魔鬼、把來的每一個人都當成匪諜，誰要來啊！我們去大陸也是這樣嗎？有一個去大陸的人被扣留，因為他在看色情片嘛！他自己違法了嘛！早上有人問我，臺灣的漁船被他們抓去了，但我不予置評，為什麼？我對事情沒有了解清楚，不方便加以評論，因為我不知道他有沒有違法。如果違反了對方的法律就沒辦法，同樣的，如果他們違反了我們的法律，我們的海巡一樣會抓人嘛！是不是這樣？"],["伍次長勝園：是，是這樣。"],["陳委員雪生：我覺得臺灣社會為什麼搞成這個樣子？你把電視的49台、50台打開一看，本來質詢NCC的題目拿來問你，藍的罵綠的、綠的罵藍的，天天罵來罵去。藍的那台永遠不會講綠的好話，綠的5、6台絕對不會講藍的好話，甚至你到南部去會發現連TVBS都不見了，這是什麼社會啊！我們馬祖及金門希望與對岸倡和、我們希望倡和，大家和氣嘛！對不對？對方本來就是我們的親戚啊！但你看我們臺灣這邊不時的與人家對抗，他要談統一、我們談獨立，所以我們不談獨立，也希望他不要談統一，兩邊先不談這個事情嘛！好好的，尤其是觀光署的部分，你要不要把觀光署的政策列出來？現在到底是要怎樣？團進團出行不行？你們回去後要考慮這件事情，我不曉得是不是你分管的？觀光署是你分管的嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：不是，觀光署是另外一位次長。"],["陳委員雪生：今天部長沒來，早上我們的總召傅崐萁委員提到部長去哪裡，昨天部長向我告假要去花蓮勘災，他去了嗎？昨天確實是去了，但是昨天深夜就回來了，深夜11、12點回來了，所以我今天早上得到的訊息還是昨天他在花蓮勘災。當然也沒什麼事、傅總召也沒什麼惡意，只是部長去各縣市勘災也好、去幹什麼也好，通知一下當地的縣市長，不要去分藍綠，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好，我回去……"],["陳委員雪生：如果要分藍綠的話，部長難道只去綠的縣市，藍的縣市就不去了嗎？也不好嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：不會啦！"],["陳委員雪生：好不好？這點拜託一下！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我講到文化大革命，現在裝鬼嚇人的人很多、無中生有的人也很多，有病！你懂了嗎？這個社會有病，奇怪！我們立法委員裡也有人有病，有病去看病嘛！不要在這邊亂啊！跑到立法院來亂，搞得亂哄哄的！我是最不喜歡去倡紅的！我是在馬祖出生，馬祖以前就是大陸的，是不是？我的根在那裡啊！我都不想講祖國不祖國的事情，你非要逼得我去講，我是臺灣人啊！但你又說我是中國豬，是不是？我到底是哪裡人，現在都搞不清楚了。活生生的硬要一分為二是幹什麼呢？沒有必要啦！","我認為將來要開放陸客進來，你看那22個人來了之後，舞龍舞獅，熱烈歡迎我們的同胞到馬祖來，兩邊要和嘛！打仗第一個受影響的是金門與馬祖，我們在前線吃了多少砲彈啊！你們沒吃過砲彈，對不對？"],["伍次長勝園：沒有。"],["陳委員雪生：你們沒有吃過啊！昨天我看到北韓的一部影片，從17歲到27歲，沒有任何理由，全民皆兵，全部都是軍人喔！27歲之後才是適婚年齡、才開始結婚生小孩，他們是儘量生，生越多越好，能夠生5個就能拿到他們金正恩同志的一個什麼斧頭刀，女生還有金戒指一個，上面都有金正恩同志的肖像，人家是這樣子做，而我們一定要這樣搞嗎？不要把臺灣撕裂了！","今天我講的這些是寓意深長，希望觀光署無論是團或客都要與對方談。鄭文燦市長是民進黨很重要的資產，現在擺在海基會，他能夠與對面談嗎？我現在就可以打電話給國臺辦了，他打得動嗎？他打不通嘛！是不是？這個不是這樣談法的，所以我希望你們交通部與對面能夠往來的就儘量倡和，不要有一些不好聽的話出來，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["陳委員雪生：回去之後，你比較有機會與部長在一起……"],["伍次長勝園：好，我帶回去研議。"],["陳委員雪生：新任的部長人也非常好，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員雪生：你灌輸他一些觀念、灌輸他一些觀念，好不好？不是要你教他倡和或什麼，而是觀念很重要，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["陳委員雪生：今天謝謝你了，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員。","下一位登記質詢的是林國成委員。林國成委員、林國成委員，林國成委員不在。","請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 一) 委員陳俊宇等24 人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 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這個石頭啊"},{"start":132.557,"end":152.87,"text":"一運去要幾十噸大船才去,小船不去,小船又不能靠港,有安全的顧慮。那麼這個石頭要去的話一定水漲船高嘛,要用非常高的費用才能買下這個石頭。有人要去標這樣的工程嗎?沒有嘛。所以我這樣講給你聽你就懂了嘛。那這個石頭怎麼辦?要不要從大陸來?"},{"start":154.071,"end":183.639,"text":"台灣沒有大陸來嗎?現在那個石頭上面有沒有寫中國製造我就不懂可能每一顆石頭要驗是不是中國製造DNA把它弄好不然的話不能用那個石頭裡面含什麼成分以後房子會垮下來台灣很像是個鬼島很奇怪把人家講成都是魔鬼我們缺工缺料還有跟交通部有關係的是觀光業者哀嚎遍野你看"},{"start":184.127,"end":209.278,"text":"本來今天要審救國團的條例一萬四千家的旅館業者要來集體抗議你們觀光署要去研究一下去協調一下小小一個救國團有多少單位所以我們總召提出來說救國團還給他我是說延長時間給他這一點你們回去跟觀光署研究一下還有旅館業者缺工"},{"start":213.328,"end":239.084,"text":"也拜託你們協調勞動部。我們夏天客人滿了,冬天沒生意,冬天就不需要這些人了嘛,夏天比較需要。所以我們現在旅館業缺工缺得很厲害,還有營造業缺工缺得很厲害,能不能跟勞動部那邊做個協調,跨部會的協調好不好?這是我們主動來跟他們接觸。"},{"start":242.881,"end":264.853,"text":"前幾天來了22個彩線團成員,彩線團成員到馬祖來,這個算引清兵入關嗎?不算吧?是不是引清兵入關?我們到底是歡迎人家還是不歡迎人家嘛?是不是?來了每一個人都把他當魔鬼,來了每一個人都把他當匪諜,誰要來啊?我們去大陸有這樣嗎?"},{"start":266.397,"end":284.934,"text":"去大陸有一個人被扣留,他在看色情片嘛,他自己違法了嘛。所以早上人家問我說,我們台灣的漁船被他們抓去了。我不與之平,為什麼勒?我對事情沒有了解清楚啊,我不方便去評論這個事情。他有沒有違法的我不知道啊。"},{"start":285.754,"end":306.964,"text":"如果違反了對方的法律,那沒有辦法。他違反了我們的法律,我們海軍一樣出去抓人嘛,是不是這樣?是,是這樣。所以我是覺得台灣這個社會為什麼搞成這個樣子?你把49台50台電視打開一看,本來執行NCC的題目,拿來問你。藍的罵綠的,綠的罵藍的,天天罵來罵去。藍的那一台永遠不會講綠的好話,綠的五六台絕對不會講他的好話。"},{"start":314.741,"end":335.733,"text":"你到南部去的話連TVBS都不見了,這是什麼社會啊?我們馬祖金門不停的跟對岸,我們希望唱和。我們希望唱和啊,大家和氣嘛對不對?對方本來就是我們的情緒啊。那你這邊卻不,這邊你看我們台灣不時的跟人家在對抗。"},{"start":337.148,"end":361.036,"text":"他要談統一我們談獨立我們不談獨立嘛希望他也不要談統一兩邊先不談這個事情嘛好好的尤其觀光署的部分你觀光署的政策你要把它列出來你到底現在要怎樣團進團出行不行欸你們回去要去考慮這個事情我不曉得是不是你分管了好觀光署是你分管了嗎欸不是觀光署是另外一次長"},{"start":361.847,"end":377.257,"text":"部長今天因為沒來,早上我們總召副問題委員提到說部長去哪裡?部長昨天跟我告假去花蓮看災,他去了嗎?昨天確實去了,去了他昨天深夜又回來了。"},{"start":378.496,"end":407.376,"text":"深夜11、2點回來了所以我今天早上得到的訊息還是昨天的他在花蓮勘災當然你跟...也沒什麼事啦副總長也沒什麼惡意啦只是說部長去各縣市勘災也好去幹什麼也好通知一下當地的縣市長嘛不要去分藍綠好不好你分藍綠的話部長只是到綠的縣市去藍的縣市都不去了嗎也不好嘛好不好這一點拜託一下"},{"start":409.69,"end":437.766,"text":"我講到文化大革命啊,現在裝鬼嚇人的人很多啊無中生有的人也很多有病啊你懂了沒有社會上有病嗎?奇怪我們立法院裡面也有人有病啊有病去看病嘛,不要在那邊亂啊跑到立法院來亂,亂了嗎?亂哄哄的我是最不喜歡去唱紅的我在馬祖啊,我在馬祖出生馬祖以前就是大陸的嘛是不是?我跟在那裡啊"},{"start":438.353,"end":449.626,"text":"所以我都不想講說祖國不祖國的事情你非要逼得我去講我是台灣人啊那台灣人呢你又說我是中國豬是不是我到底是哪一人我現在搞不清楚"},{"start":451.274,"end":452.175,"text":"昨天我看了北韓一個影片"},{"start":479.306,"end":507.547,"text":"十七歲到二十七歲沒有任何理由全民皆兵全部都是軍人二十七歲以後才是適婚年齡才開始結婚生小孩他們生小孩盡量生,生越多越好能夠生五個的話可以拿到金正恩同志的斧頭刀女生的話還有金戒指一個上面都有金正恩同志的肖像"},{"start":508.988,"end":537.38,"text":"人家是這樣子,我們一定要這樣搞嗎?不要把台灣撕裂了,所以我今天講這個是予以深藏,而是說希望我們官方署團或客,你跟對方談嘛,你不然鄭文燦市長是民運長很重要的一個資產,擺在那個海基會,他能夠跟對面談嗎?我現在就可以打電話給國台辦了,他打得動嗎?他打不通嘛,是不是?這個不是這樣談法的,所以我希望你們交通部跟對面,"},{"start":538.7,"end":566.146,"text":"能夠往來的,我們盡量能夠唱和,不要去有一些不好聽的話出來好不好?我想回去,你比他有機會跟部長在一起啊。好,帶回去演繹。部長新來的人也非常好好不好?是。你灌輸他一些觀念,灌輸他一些觀念好不好?不是說你幫他教他要唱和幹什麼,而是這個觀念很重要好不好?好。那今天謝謝你,好謝謝。好,謝謝委員。"},{"start":570.54,"end":571.025,"text":"謝謝陳學生委員。"}]}},{"id":"154520","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154520","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd22a659cd84e0de061363f5917c5295f547ffec24bc1a8f641356525e4f663e885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:36:34 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12:42:37","影片長度":"00:06:03","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T12:36:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:42:37+08:00","duration":363,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":492,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時36分）謝謝主席，請交通部伍次長以及鐵路公司的杜董事長。"],["主席：請次長及杜董事長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：次長好。次長、董事長，今年2月4日臺鐵公司表示配合國防演訓的運輸需求，正在積極研議改進軍運的方式及強化軍運的效能，滿足國軍未來演訓的準備及各類運輸的計畫與目標。這邊要請教董事長及次長，在演訓之後是否有研議出改進軍運的方式？以及強化軍運效能的作為有哪些？"],["杜董事長微：報告委員，其實我們與軍方針對軍運的區塊都有固定的研討會議，也都是固定的成員，每一季我們也都會定期檢討，包括演訓在內。我們與軍方的合作也不只是軍運而已，在大型演訓的部分，包括防毒、救護或後送之類，通常也會納入我們的演習之中。"],["邱委員若華：在2月4日演訓之後，有沒有實際的驗證？在限定期間內，一定規模以上的跨區域運送能力，可以做到什麼樣的程度？"],["杜董事長微：這個要看軍方提需求。"],["邱委員若華：軍方提需求？"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["邱委員若華：所以在那次演訓之後，臺鐵與國防部沒有實際的……"],["杜董事長微：在那次之後，我們有很多例行性的軍事運送還是照樣實施。"],["邱委員若華：在目前的極端氣候下，針對國軍出動天然災害的救災，有沒有強化運輸的效率？"],["杜董事長微：在鐵運的部分，我們是依照過去以往與軍方的律定，如果他們有需要鐵運，包括像是花蓮震災，如果他們需要跨區救援的話，我們提供貨運的運能都足夠。"],["邱委員若華：都足夠？"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["邱委員若華：因為極端氣候的關係，現在是天災頻傳，也希望臺鐵公司能夠加強演訓，熟悉這個流程。","接下來是關於臺鐵平鎮站址南移，目前中央與地方尚無共識。我們桃園市近年啟動鐵路地下化，將新設平鎮車站，前市長鄭文燦在任內敲定於平鎮臨時站旁邊設置永久站，在前年的11月已經動工，加上鄭市長拍板將平鎮站南移180公尺，並與捷運橘線共站。請教次長，對於我們桃園市府將平鎮站南移設址的意見是如何？"],["伍次長勝園：我想這件事情可能要比較謹慎的評估，為什麼？第一個，這是一個已經核定的計畫，我的工程連續壁也做了一部分，如果要移的話，我這邊做的工程可能會有一些浪費。第二個……"],["邱委員若華：次長，你知道桃園市政府在5月24日曾發函建請鐵道局嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：有，但是依照行政院核定的計畫，當然就必須要……因為它那個評估還沒有很正式的討論，因此，對我來講，一個重大建設還是必須要往前走。"],["邱委員若華：因為桃園市政府有發函建請暫緩平鎮永久站的工程，後來處理的進度？"],["伍次長勝園：我們認為要等到評估完成，比較明確之後，再來看到底要怎麼做。"],["邱委員若華：評估？"],["伍次長勝園：就是車站南移180公尺的事情，如果這個沒有評估清楚，現在就貿然的停工，其實對整個計畫是會有影響的。因為我們知道工期受到招標不順的影響，其實已經往後延了、經費也都往上增了。"],["邱委員若華：評估大概需要多長的時間？"],["伍次長勝園：現在就是要看桃園市政府給我們什麼樣的資訊，之前告訴我們的又是450、又是250，現在重報上來的又是180，因為這個移動對計畫的經費及期程是一定會有影響，只是現在大家必須要有一個共識，而且……"],["邱委員若華：目前還在施工中，如果……"],["伍次長勝園：對，還在施工中。"],["邱委員若華：也請鐵道局再重新儘快的評估，不然接下來可能會面臨到拆除重工的情形。"],["伍次長勝園：OK，其實我也接到當地居民反映不要遷移，所以這個還是要整體的評估，以上向委員報告。"],["邱委員若華：為什麼後來會這樣提出？因為它的路寬只有12公尺，非常的狹窄，而且腹地也不足，未來通車之後將會對地方交通問題造成衝擊，所以市政府才會提出。"],["伍次長勝園：好，到時候我們再與市政府研議一下，看看這樣的南移情況是不是比較妥適。"],["邱委員若華：請交通部、鐵道局與市政府再做討論。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝次長、謝謝局長。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員。"],["主席（邱委員若華代）：請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 一) 委員陳俊宇等24 人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 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﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":263.166,"end":263.266,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":286.11,"end":307.702,"text":"總市長你的責任很大這個必須要承擔起這樣的責任必須把相關的安全系統建置來把它完成因為現在搭乘的人數已經越平均每天達到65萬人次以上了65萬旅客的安全是不容出狀況出問題的"},{"start":311.297,"end":325.447,"text":"市長說明一下市長跟委員報告很抱歉對6月21號這個事情真的是發生這樣不幸真的很抱歉我想代表交通部來跟社會大眾表示道歉那其實剛剛提到的"},{"start":326.963,"end":328.264,"text":"議員廖先翔"},{"start":352.363,"end":382.363,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":382.703,"end":405.202,"text":"十九分鐘呢?難道我們來跟民眾說因為我們還要看雨量還要看告警系統。這樣的安全的管理系統是出了很大的問題啊。這個必須啊,要確實的監督改善啊。我們民眾無法接受,旅客無法接受,我也無法接受。要確實的改善。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝張偉。"}]}},{"id":"154515","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154515","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdeb214b81027567591363f5917c5295f547ffec24bc1a8f64be6991dd5f056f475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"12:23:01 - 12:29:20","影片長度":"00:06:19","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T12:23:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:29:20+08:00","duration":379,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":443,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（12時23分）謝謝主席。再次感謝啦！"],["主席：感謝你啦！"],["許委員智傑：我請臺鐵。"],["主席：臺鐵董事長？"],["許委員智傑：對，董事長。"],["主席：請杜董。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：董事長好。次長，您坐著聽啦！","我請教臺鐵董事長日前一對母子搭車的事件。現在是一機一票嘛！但是她帶著兩個小孩，現在又追求無紙化，而且帶小孩真的不方便啦！結果站務員仍說這樣不行。而她已經出示證明，表示雖然沒有取票，但是都買了票，站務員仍然請了駐衛警，導致小朋友也很害怕，不知道為什麼媽媽都已經買票了，臺鐵最後還是強硬叫她補票？像這個部分，臺鐵是不是可以改善相關功能？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，像這種情形的話，通常我們都會建議旅客要取實體票。"],["許委員智傑：當然。"],["杜董事長微：而不要把票擺在手機裡面待取。"],["許委員智傑：對，基本上，一機多票當然是我們的希望，只是臺鐵現在可能沒有辦法馬上做到。但是對於這個媽媽，我說第一個重點是無紙化時代，第二個是她帶著兩個小朋友，而且她就是用電子購票，那臺鐵是不是有機制可以稍微變通？雖然不是全面都用一機多票，但是至少……比如說帶著12歲以下小孩，或者持愛心票、就是帶著長輩，甚至一些障礙、殘障人士等等，像這種比較特殊的案例，臺鐵是不是能有通融的空間？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，對於像剛剛委員所提的這種特殊案例，我們可以去研議一下。"],["許委員智傑：對，我就是希望董事長這樣做。這種情況真的很特殊啦！假設我帶了一位殘障的長輩，或帶了兩個小朋友又在12歲以下，就會希望無紙化嘛！就是要方便嘛！但是你們卻要求我一定、非去買實體票不可。而且坦白講，這對母子都已經買了票，卻還當場補票啦！叫人聽了以後情何以堪！所以我希望臺鐵可以針對這個部分研究一下，像這樣的特殊案例，是不是可以對站務員稍微勸導怎麼調整這樣的狀況，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：好，我們針對特殊案例來研究。"],["許委員智傑：好，對於這種特殊案例，希望臺鐵可以研究一下。","第二，鐵路便當節其實辦得還不錯，這點要給臺鐵一個鼓勵啦！這個活動真的滿好的，也有很多人很喜歡，所以我有一個簡單的要求，就是有沒有機會移師高雄？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，先前我們也想過，可是高雄場地實在有點小。至於現在針對高雄站，鐵道局已經很努力地要把兩邊接起來，接起來以後，場地的容量就會倍增，我們會再考量在高雄推出。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。","先看下一張好了。其實很多臺鐵的活動以前都不重視高雄，也不只是臺鐵啦！我是說所有活動以前都以集中在臺北為主。不過像是臺灣文博會，我108年要求，111年就真的到高雄辦了。針對米其林餐廳評鑑，我在109年提出要求，111年也成功爭取到米其林餐廳評鑑加入高雄啦！當年我還要求7月的金曲獎在高雄辦，那一年11月，我在總質詢時也再次要求金曲獎等三金是不是都有機會輪流到高雄舉辦，這是我們高雄人的盼望。所以鐵路便當節，明年的啦！如果不能完全在高雄辦，是不是也可以辦一些快閃活動，或者雙展區活動？也就是有一部分讓高雄有參與的機會？"],["杜董事長微：據我了解，明年場地應該就比較寬裕了，我們明年會就高雄做適當的安排。"],["許委員智傑：是喔？謝謝喔！會做適當的安排？我希望明年就看得到，至少有部分嘛！好不好？謝謝喔！","第三件，臺鐵招人一直都招不滿，對不對？"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["許委員智傑：你看投影片底下的資料，今年招936人，結果正取756人。臺東電力段更慘，要找7人，只有1個人報名，然後那個人還沒被錄取。為什麼臺鐵會這麼缺少人員呢？簡單來講，涉及臺鐵很多福利問題。臺鐵因為剛公司化，我們也知道，沒有公務員的優惠，加上剛剛變成公司，中間有落差，所以很多人現在可能不見得喜歡到臺鐵上班。所以我要求比照高鐵、辦理活動、提供類似民間大公司的福利等等，臺鐵可以研究一下如何創造臺鐵員工的福利，才不會有員工招不滿的情況。臺鐵是不是可以儘快、趕快規劃？"],["杜董事長微：好。其實我們也有規劃啦！尤其是公司新進從業人員……"],["許委員智傑：我的時間已經到了。臺鐵今年6月1號成功比照高鐵放寬眷屬優待，這點已經OK了，那包括親子文康、從業人員薪資標準化、進修福利等等，希望臺鐵可以作整體規劃，以提高有關福利，增加臺鐵員工進來的機會，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：好。"],["許委員智傑：希望能夠趕快努力。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員的發言。","下一位請李昆澤召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 一) 委員陳俊宇等24 人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 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12:12:59","影片長度":"00:05:26","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T12:07:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:12:59+08:00","duration":326,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":410,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時7分）謝謝主席，有請伍次長。"],["主席：次長請。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：次長午安。交通部這兩天有召開一場行人道安記者會，公布了今年一到四月份屏東縣的30日死亡、機車死亡以及高齡死亡三項道安表現與問題，部長也當場表示他有跟我們屏東縣的周縣長聯繫，目的是為了加強協助長輩跟提升道路安全。但本席要特別提醒交通部啦！解決道安問題不是只要靠縣政府，屏東縣長期大眾運輸也不足，多數鄉親是用機車代步，所以無論是捷運系統也好、公車系統也好，這些大眾運輸的道路規劃也需要交通部的大力支持。針對降低道安事故的部分，請教次長，交通部如何協助屏東縣政府作人行環境的改善？"],["伍次長勝園：向委員報告，道安事件確實是中央跟地方要共同努力啦！至於我們中央的部分，我請副司長作比較清楚的說明。"],["蔡副司長書彬：委員好。道安部分，在部裡面目前的協助中，有一項是工程部分的經費協助，是一項四年四百億計畫，我們跟內政部共同攜手，補助地方在交通工程方面的改善，另外也有一些宣導的部分，也有道安經費挹注。當然，整個道安工作其實是各個部會都要共同努力啦！包括警政部分也有。","如果是整個道安表現，我們每個月都會召開聯繫會報，發現道安表現不好的時候，我們會請他們來聯繫會報報告……"],["徐委員富癸：我還是要提醒交通部，長期以來，很多交通建設重北輕南，只重六都，非六都則好像分不到糖吃，情況非常、非常地嚴重。我想，屏東縣很多人行環境的改善需要交通部挹注更多資源，也要整體考量財政問題啦！"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["徐委員富癸：所以真的要拜託交通部，到時候在資源分配上不要又只放在六都，導致非六都很多環境問題還是沒辦法改善，這點請交通部協助。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，次長也當過鐵道局局長。我想，平交道也是發生事故的熱區，尤其屏東縣有很多平交道設置。今年四月份，我們有安排交通委員會到枋寮車站進行考察，當時我們提出枋寮車站的大平臺計畫，能不能請教一下次長目前的進度？"],["伍次長勝園：關於整個屏東縣全線高架化，之前當然有一段已經高架化了，至於枋寮車站的高架化目前大概是放到南迴線形改善計畫裡去做，可行性報告我們已經在四月的時候提報到行政院審查，後續我們會再協調行政院儘速核定這個計畫。"],["徐委員富癸：我也拜託交通部加快速度。"],["伍次長勝園：會，我們會努力。"],["徐委員富癸：龍山跟中山這兩個平交道除了有事故，等待時間也都非常長，還造成淹水等問題。我也要拜託楊局長，除了枋寮高架化以外，崁頂、南州這邊的鄉親也發生過死亡事故、案件，拜託真的要一併考量進去啦！不然就像搭雲霄飛車一樣，高高低低、起起伏伏，對我們的交通平權來說真的也很不公平啦！這點是不是可以請部裡面再評估一下？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，剛剛有委員針對觀光署提案，振興獎勵補助方案除了花蓮、臺東之外，也要納入宜蘭。但本席也記得上次質詢觀光署的時候，觀光署也很不尊重啊！隨便用一個答案就應付過去，沒有給我們一個實質針對屏東的振興補助、補貼方案，也沒有給我們具體的答復。我想，這樣的敷衍態度對我們屏東的觀光業、對我們屏東縣政府的努力都相當不公平，我也要求觀光署在一個禮拜之內，針對屏東縣的振興獎勵補助方案給本席辦公室一個答復，好不好？次長能不能處理？"],["伍次長勝園：好，我回去轉告一下。"],["徐委員富癸：屏東也是觀光大縣，一年有幾百萬遊客。"],["伍次長勝園：據我了解，屏東縣現在住宿率很高欸！很多人去喔！"],["徐委員富癸：那是一段時間而已，我們希望整體都好，那樣才是好。"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["徐委員富癸：只有這兩、三個月，肚子還是會餓欸！"],["伍次長勝園：好、好、好、好。"],["徐委員富癸：這點拜託觀光署要給我們正面的答復。"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["徐委員富癸：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：休息10分鐘。","休息（12時13分）","繼續開會（12時22分）"],["主席：下一位請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 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報案的部分部裡面目前的協助當然有一個在工程部分我們有經費協助就是一個4年400億我們跟內政部共同攜手然後補助地方在交通工程方面的改善那另外"},{"start":96.698,"end":122.949,"text":"也有一些宣導的部分那宣導部分我們當然也有經費在移住那當然整個大案的工作其實是各個部會都要共同努力啦包括警政的部分也有那整個如果說他們整個大案表現的不好因為我們每個月都會召開我們的聯繫匯報如果發現整個他們整個大案表現不好的時候我們會請他們來在我們聯繫匯報做報告"},{"start":125.45,"end":146.322,"text":"這個我還是要提醒交通部這個長期以來我們很多的交通建設這個縱北、青南、縱六都然後非六都這個都好像分不到堂吃這個非常非常的嚴重那我想針對這樣一個屏東縣我們很多的人行環境的改善是需要我們交通部挹注更多資源這也要整體考慮我們的財政問題"},{"start":148.183,"end":153.466,"text":"議員廖先翔等18人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案件事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案件事宜。」"},{"start":174.017,"end":200.707,"text":"三、四月份我們有安排我們的交通委員到仿寮車站來進行考察那當時我們有提出一個仿寮車站的一個大平台計畫那請教一下次長我們目前的進度我想這個整個屏東縣的前線高架前面大概有一段已經高架了那仿寮車站部分高架我們現在目前是大概是這樣把它放到我們的南回線型改善裡面去做"},{"start":201.567,"end":220.893,"text":"那這個目前的可行性我們已經在4月的時候已經提報到行政院審查。我想後續我們再會在協調行政院盡速來核定這個計畫。這也要拜託高農博要加快速度啦。龍山跟中山這兩個評價到我這個事故跟我們的這個等待的時間都非常地短齁。是。還作出我們淫醉的問題啦。是。在這裡我也要拜託楊局長。局長。"},{"start":225.474,"end":248.254,"text":"最後再除了訪寮這個高架以外吼我們還有崁嶺南州這邊的鄉親因為這都發生死亡的事故案件吼真的要一併拜託一併考量進去啦吼阿不然這樣到時也是一樣像那些雲消費車高高低低這樣起起伏伏真的也是對我們的交通平權很不公平啦這點是不是可以請部裡面再評估一下是好"},{"start":254.461,"end":271.477,"text":"關公署有委員提案針對政訓獎勵補助的方案除了花蓮、台東之外要納入宜蘭我記得上次本席在質詢我們關公署的時候我們關公署也是很不尊重請猜一個"},{"start":272.398,"end":273.618,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答 （第二案僅進行詢答"},{"start":301.165,"end":302.106,"text":"我回去轉告一下。"}]}},{"id":"154509","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154509","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bde4f1faf5becfedc51363f5917c5295f547ffec24bc1a8f640e7e88b7d6e8a5905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:01:19 - 12:07:13","影片長度":"00:05:54","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T12:01:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:07:13+08:00","duration":354,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（12時1分）謝謝大會主席。有請伍次長。"],["主席：好，請伍次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["游委員顥：次長好。我延續剛才廖先翔委員及黃健豪委員所提到的，不僅是三貂嶺，或是暖暖車站這種下坡害機車衝進鐵道軌道上的事件，針對剛才這些部分，本席也想要跟進健豪委員剛才提的建議，除了希望臺鐵能夠針對全臺做通盤檢討之外，像剛才那種路口，尤其是防範機車，如果在前方路面上設有防撞桿，對於機車或行人在行走這些危險區塊或路段的時候，其實會多一分保障啦！所以我希望在這次通盤檢討的過程中也能針對這些特殊路口進行防護設施的設置，而且是檢討完之後直接進行改善，相信這樣對於民眾還有鄰近鐵道的人車可以多一分保障，這樣可以嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：是，應該。"],["游委員顥：可以啦！"],["伍次長勝園：如同剛剛講的，我們會花一個月時間盤點，針對剛剛提到的幾個風險比較高的部分，我們想想看怎麼作一些防護。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。","接著是延續禮拜一交通委員會到臺中市進行中捷橘線的案子。由於中彰投其實是一個生活圈，本席也代表南投鄉親對於交通需求加以反映，次長，你也知道，南投接著一定也會來請教你。我們是把考察排在15號啦！是下下禮拜一，但是我也同樣地要先請教你，主要是南投也要「橘線」，而不該被「侷限」。目前來講，那天考察的相關資料所呈現的都只有到霧峰，但其實賴清德總統已經清楚表達、表態說臺中捷運要延伸到南投。可不可以請次長也藉由這個機會說明一下目前針對南投這塊的規劃狀況？"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，沒錯，從路網來看，如果要到南投，橘線這條線應該是比較方便、比較適合的一條線，所以昨天審查會議的時候，我其實有問臺中市政府有沒有留延伸到南投這樣的機制，而他們給我的答案是沒有。我就提醒他們這樣不行，可能要跟南投縣政府討論一下，因為不管是一車到底或不一樣系統都沒有關係，但要有一站、端末站就是要預留這樣的延伸機制才可以，要不然等到臺中做完以後，換南投這邊要做了，卻沒有地方接，轉乘就很不方便，對於交通運輸來說會是一大敗筆，所以我昨天有提醒臺中市政府這部分要考慮。"],["游委員顥：那就謝謝次長，針對這部分，我和健豪委員也會再跟許縣長、盧市長都做一些溝通，但是在裡面的居中協調還是要麻煩交通部。針對這個部分，過去許縣長跟盧市長在包括縣市長治理平臺等場合其實也都討論到這個問題，對於未來橘線延伸到南投，我相信一樣還是共識啦！所以到時候再麻煩次長能夠多多注意一下延伸的部分。"],["伍次長勝園：是，但是我也跟委員報告，現在南投縣的整體路網還沒出來，可能也要請南投縣政府趕快將整體路網送出來。"],["游委員顥：對，那……"],["伍次長勝園：這樣我們才能知道接的方式對不對。"],["游委員顥：好，到時候核定的部分再麻煩交通部，而縣府這邊會加速、趕快提報。"],["伍次長勝園：是，謝謝委員。"],["游委員顥：謝謝次長。","最後，本席要再針對鐵路公司以及臺鐵肯定一件事，就是在目前來講，鐵路公司針對集集攤商給予租金減免，讓集集火車倉庫許多攤商得到協助。原因是在於現在集集支線要一路做整修，次長自己一定也很清楚，因為你也是鐵路背景，在這段整修的過程中，其實濁水站之後每一站將近一年半都沒辦法行駛，對於這些攤商與觀光造成的影響非常地嚴重。本席在這裡先再次肯定鐵路公司董事長同意對地方作租金減免，但本席也還是要為地方再作發聲，由於有將近一年半的時間，所以交通部是不是能再整合其他相關單位，對於這條支線衝擊到觀光做一些補償、補貼措施，或者其他面向的協助措施？次長跟董事長能不能再作幫忙？謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員雪生）：謝謝游顥委員。","下一位請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 一) 委員陳俊宇等24 人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.719718750000002,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.59284375,"end":25.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.457218750000003,"end":27.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.22471875,"end":29.562218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.71721875,"end":52.680968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.17034375,"end":96.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.95971875000001,"end":78.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.04971875000001,"end":96.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.06659375000001,"end":96.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.25221875000001,"end":96.72471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.04534375,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.06221875,"end":107.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.33909375,"end":160.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.49096875000001,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.71471875,"end":160.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.96784375000001,"end":161.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.01846875,"end":161.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.03534375,"end":162.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.39784375000002,"end":174.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.05846875,"end":176.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.93159375000002,"end":181.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.89284375000003,"end":183.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.47471875000002,"end":192.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.69284375,"end":196.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.65846875000003,"end":200.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.37096875,"end":202.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.85159375,"end":211.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.31846875000002,"end":215.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.36909375000002,"end":212.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.96346875,"end":216.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.53721875000002,"end":216.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.60471875000002,"end":247.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.03034375000001,"end":250.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.50659375,"end":262.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.53909375,"end":259.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.97721875,"end":349.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.94659375000003,"end":270.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.73159375,"end":350.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.08159375,"end":352.75221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":21.393,"end":27.007,"text":"謝謝,謝謝大會主席。那有請我們的五次長。好,請五次長。謝謝。"},{"start":37.115,"end":52.34,"text":"議員好 市長好那延續著剛才廖先翔委員以及黃建豪委員所提到的那不僅是山腳嶺或是剛才暖暖車站的這樣子的下坡害機車衝進去這個鐵道的這個軌道上那其實剛才這個部分"},{"start":53.3,"end":77.478,"text":"本席也想要跟介豪委員提的這個建議來講是希望台鐵能夠針對這個全台的部分做通盤檢討之外像剛才的那種路口其實像這些機車他們如果前面有個防撞桿在這個路面上的話其實是對於這個機車有時候或是行人他們在走的這種危險的這種區塊或是路段的時候其實會多一份保障"},{"start":78.098,"end":95.773,"text":"所以是希望說就是在這次的通盤檢討過程中也能夠針對這些特殊的路口啊那去做進行防務設施的一個設置檢討完了之後就直接進行改善相信這樣對於民眾還鄰近鐵道旁邊的話會可以多一份保障這樣可以嗎是應該"},{"start":97.054,"end":97.234,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":118.158,"end":142.375,"text":"那就是本席我們在中山投棋是一個生活圈那本席也代表著南投鄉親對於交通需求來去做一個反應所以市長您也知道就是一定南投接著也會來請教您因為當然是我們的考察是排在15號啦下禮拜一但是同樣的也要先跟您請教是那南投也是要局限啦不該被局限那在目前來講"},{"start":143.175,"end":143.415,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":163.456,"end":183.656,"text":"沒有錯,從路網來看,極限這一條線應該是要到南投是比較方便的,比較適合的一條線。所以在昨天審查會議的時候,我其實有問台中市政府,你有沒有延伸到南投的這樣的機制。他們給我的答案是沒有。"},{"start":184.517,"end":210.059,"text":"那我就跟他提醒那這樣不行喔我覺得這可能要跟那個南投先生討論一下因為不管是不是一車到底或者是不一樣系統都沒有關係但是你那個站這個端末站你就是要這樣預留這樣一個延伸的機制才可以要不然等他做完以後好你這邊要做了結果到這邊沒有地方接那就轉秤就是很不方便這會造成對一個交通運輸是一個大敗筆"},{"start":212.509,"end":228.029,"text":"所以昨天有提醒那個臺東市政府這部分要考慮。那就謝謝市長因為這部分我跟建豪委員也會再跟就是包括是許縣長或是魯市長都會再做一些溝通但是在裡面的居中協調也是要麻煩交通部"},{"start":228.59,"end":228.79,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":250.983,"end":269.938,"text":"因為南投縣他的整理路網還沒出來,這可能要請南投縣政府那個整理路網趕快送出來,才能知道說這樣的方式對不對。好,那這個到時候合訂的不能再麻煩,那縣府這邊會加速趕快來去做一個提報。是,謝謝委員。"},{"start":270.838,"end":296.373,"text":"謝謝市長那最後的話本席在針對這個我們的鐵路公司那以及就是台鐵就是包括從這邊要肯定一件事就是在目前來講的話有鐵路公司這邊有針對集集他們的攤商在租金減免的部分在協助讓集集火車的這個倉庫他們能夠讓許多攤商他們來個協助那原因是在於因為現在"},{"start":297.273,"end":297.613,"text":"議員廖先翔"},{"start":314.372,"end":314.872,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":340.259,"end":340.66,"text":"謝謝永浩委員"}]}},{"id":"154508","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154508","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdce11389c9c043d731363f5917c5295f547ffec24bc1a8f6455b575a02889fffd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:53:46 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12:01:06","影片長度":"00:07:20","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:53:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:01:06+08:00","duration":440,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":354,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時54分）謝謝主席，主席辛苦了。主席，我先請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["黃委員健豪：跟鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：還有楊局長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：次長好。我先談臺中捷運橘線昨天正式經過交通部可行性研究附但書通過，要函報行政院審查，目前的進度是這樣嘛！對吧？"],["伍次長勝園：是，但是裡面有一些意見，臺中市政府必須回去做一點修正。"],["黃委員健豪：我昨天在會議開始前也去跟次長討論，禮拜一的時候，我們交通委員會也到現地會勘。其實裡面最主要的核心問題應該就是通道，因為包含禮拜一跟禮拜二、也就是昨天在討論時都提到，按照計畫內容，通道本來是三百多公尺，但臺中市交通局口頭上跟本席說過會調整到八十公尺。那麼就交通部的了解，從三百多公尺到八十公尺，問題是卡在哪一個環節？"],["伍次長勝園：昨天委員跟我提到八十公尺，我也有點納悶，我也跟你講，我的訊息還是320公尺，那時候我掌握到的還是這樣，所以我是不曉得為什麼會有八十這個數字啦！"],["黃委員健豪：那你們在昨天審查會裡面沒有談到這個數字？"],["伍次長勝園：沒有，他們提出來的是320公尺啊！"],["黃委員健豪：那他們沒有說明這一段就對了？"],["伍次長勝園：他們沒有針對八十公尺去講。"],["黃委員健豪：好，那我跟次長說明啦！這是據我所了解，當然臺中市政府後續可能也會提報相關意見啦！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["黃委員健豪：在連通道的部分，也就是捷運橘線到臺中車站的聯通道從320公尺改為80公尺好像牽涉到鐵路，也就是臺鐵公司或鐵路局的用地，好像有這個問題。所以我拜託次長、也拜託鐵道局，到時候一併協助市政府跟鐵道局或鐵路公司協調這件事情。"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，這件事情其實昨天就討論了，其他審議委員對轉乘距離的意見比較多一點。就我後來知道的，如果要拉近的話，會影響到臺鐵公司一塊地的開發，而我昨天是建議臺中市政府，因為在地方上，他們是主管機關，如果在建蔽容積率放寬的情況下獎勵它、確保它的權益，讓它進來的話，我覺得對雙方來說是雙贏啦！車站設在那邊，我覺得對開發案也有幫助，我想後續會朝這個方向討論可行性啦！"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝次長。每次有這種大型工程的時候，我都會講一件事，就是只要技術上、工程面可行，剩下的就是配套跟法規，不管是剛剛提到的容積或獎勵都好，我希望在各單位之間，大家往拉近距離的方向走。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["黃委員健豪：各單位之間不要說這是我的土地、那是你的土地、這不是我的權限、那個是你的權限，然後把事情拖過去，因為以現階段來講，經費概估是1,396億，如果拖過一定時間之後，就會像臺中捷運藍線一樣嘛！一開始沒那麼貴，但是一直拖，拖了10年之後就變成現在這樣快兩千億的規模。現階段雖然估1,396億，但愈晚動工，我想後續經費就會提升愈多。在目前看起來，路線上已經沒有太大問題了，就剩下這些節點，尤其在臺中車站這一塊。所以是不是可以拜託次長，也拜託鐵道局跟臺鐵公司，大家到時候一起來處理，只要是工程面可行的部分，就能夠把法規放寬？"],["伍次長勝園：是，沒問題。"],["黃委員健豪：好。","接下來談到今天的主題啊！今天談到鐵路法的修法。雖然三貂嶺車站不是我的選區，但其實我也接過民眾的陳情，我看很多里民出遊也都會選擇去三貂嶺觀光。他們都遇到一個障礙，就是的確如同廖先翔委員所提的，因為與車站之間沒有人行道、也沒有一般道路，就是必須跨越鐵路，但是依據現在的法令，次長你也很了解，依照現在的法令，行人不能穿越這個地方，但這個車站沒有其他替代方案啊！所以物理上必須穿越。不知道在法令不修的情況下，要怎麼規範這件事情？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，如果是橫越，我想處理上應該會比較簡單，就是類似平交道這種方式大概可以。但是三爪溪橋那個部分會比較麻煩，因為平行，通道其實是在鐵路淨空範圍裡面。委員知道，鐵路的速度比較快，煞車距離很長，沒辦法像車子一樣看到人閃一下，沒辦法閃，所以這樣對行車來說，坦白講是很危險的，對行人來說，那邊也很危險。所以針對這部分，我們目前研議的就是從外面再拓寬大概一米二，這部份我們會再去找新北市政府談一下。長期而言，我覺得聯外道路還是應該做出來。"],["黃委員健豪：針對今天提出這項修法，當然我知道……我看交通部的意見，你們基本上是不希望修這個法啦！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["黃委員健豪：但是你們有沒有盤點過？主席，再給我一分鐘時間。你們有沒有盤點過到底全臺灣有多少車站有類似狀況？因為包含最近還有個時事新聞，不是三貂嶺，而是在暖暖車站外山坡，民眾不是故意要穿越車站，而是現場條件、現地就是長那樣，唯一通道可能就是這條狹小的坡道。這名機車騎士騎上坡去訪友，但之後滑下來、滑到鐵道，當然又被開罰。我的意思是你們雖然不希望修法，但在此之前是不是應該先盤點臺灣到底有多少個這種小型車站聯外道路或跨越鐵道的交通其實是不便的，而不是因為火車會經過很危險，要求大家都不能過？理論上來講，正常人當然希望能夠走安全的道路過去嘛！但就像暖暖車站也好、三貂嶺車站也好，這些小型車站遇到的問題可能就是鐵道兩側沒有道路可以通行，民眾被迫、只能做這件事情，所以我希望你們盤點到底有多少車站有這個問題。次長，可以嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：好，可以。"],["黃委員健豪：多久？"],["伍次長勝園：我們來盤點。"],["黃委員健豪：多久？"],["伍次長勝園：我剛剛講的是一個月嘛！對不對？一個月，我們先用一個月盤點出來。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝次長。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員健豪代）：接下來請游顥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 一) 委員陳俊宇等24 人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.76471875,"end":3.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.418468750000001,"end":5.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.793468750000001,"end":7.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.907218750000002,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.10909375,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.910343750000003,"end":17.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.22221875,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.457843750000002,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.87346875,"end":36.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.95346875,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.03596875,"end":49.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.67721875,"end":49.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.96409375,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.031593750000006,"end":50.976593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.976593750000006,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.02721875,"end":51.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.97221875,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.02284375,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.96784375,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.03534375,"end":53.963468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.963468750000004,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.03096875,"end":90.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.54409375,"end":107.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.03534375000001,"end":110.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.99284375,"end":110.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.69721875,"end":120.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.58596875,"end":121.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.26096875,"end":141.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.34221875,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.27846875,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.29096875000002,"end":145.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.42909375000002,"end":165.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.27096875,"end":176.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.45909375000002,"end":178.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.61909375000002,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.71971875,"end":183.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.76971875,"end":278.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.05034375000002,"end":200.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.78221875000003,"end":242.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.05909375000005,"end":295.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.56284375,"end":297.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.46971875,"end":302.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.73034375000003,"end":310.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.58159375,"end":333.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.46409375,"end":350.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.03534375000004,"end":369.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.41409375,"end":356.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.66721875,"end":356.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.26846875,"end":387.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.30784375,"end":397.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.39909375,"end":403.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.42784375,"end":424.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.17409375000005,"end":407.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.87596875,"end":426.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.06971875000005,"end":427.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.08659375,"end":432.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.10346875000005,"end":427.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.31346875,"end":437.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.35534375000003,"end":435.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.75971875000005,"end":440.11409375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.043,"end":5.225,"text":"好,謝謝主席,主席辛苦了主席我先請我們次長跟我們鐵道局我們楊局長"},{"start":35.885,"end":48.664,"text":"委員好。市長好。這個京台那當然現在台中捷運局縣昨天正式的經過我們交通部的可能性研究的復旦所的通過那要來函報行政院審查目前的進度是這樣嗎對吧?"},{"start":50.124,"end":69.709,"text":"市長,但是裡面有一些意見,那個臺東市府必須回去做一點修正。對,因為我昨天也是,會議開始前也去跟這個次長,然後還有包含說禮拜一的時候我們也去這個交通委員會也到了這個現地來這個來辦,來會商來會刊。那其實裡面最主要的核心問題應該就是指這個通道。"},{"start":70.609,"end":90.255,"text":"因為包含在禮拜一的時候跟禮拜二就昨天在討論的時候有提到這個通道部分本來是300多公尺按照計畫的內容300多公尺那其實口頭上交通臺中市交通局有跟本席說過會調整到80公尺那就交通部的了解這個300多公尺到80公尺的這個問題是卡在哪一個環節"},{"start":92.005,"end":109.907,"text":"所以昨天那個委員在跟我提說80我也覺得有點納悶我跟你講說我的訊息還是300公尺320公尺我那時候我掌握到還是這樣子所以80我是不曉得為什麼會有80這個數字來那昨天你們審查會的目標沒有他提出來是320啊"},{"start":110.888,"end":112.129,"text":"二、廖先翔等18人擬具〈鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":126.725,"end":150.359,"text":"從三百二到八十的這段好像牽涉到所謂的這個鐵路就是台鐵公司或鐵路局的用地還有這個問題所以到時候我是不是也拜託我們市長也拜託我們這個鐵道局一併的來協助市政府來跟這個鐵道局或是說鐵路公司來協調這件事情是我跟委員報告齁這個事情即使昨天在討論因為大概委員其他委員就是審議委員對這個轉稱的距離意見有比較多一點對"},{"start":154.701,"end":155.681,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":178.726,"end":181.287,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":200.535,"end":201.716,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":222.535,"end":241.532,"text":"一開始沒那麼貴但是一直拖拖拖了十年之後就會變成現在這個兩塊兩千億的這個規模那現階段我們算是估一千三百九十六億那如果越晚動工我想那個後續的經費就會提升越多所以在目前這個看起來路線上路線裡面沒有太大問題就剩下這些節點的部分"},{"start":241.832,"end":244.034,"text":"三、三雕嶺車站的部分但是其實我也接過民眾的陳情因為我看了很多"},{"start":268.331,"end":277.824,"text":"李明出遊都會選擇來山雕嶺這邊來觀光。但是遇到一個障礙就是說的確就如同廖先翔委員所提的這個因為他的"},{"start":279.07,"end":280.711,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":303.752,"end":331.632,"text":"嗯,各位報告,如果是橫越的部分我想應該處理上會比較簡單啦齁,就是做個類似平交道這種方式大概可以,但是那個三爪西橋那個部分會比較麻煩,因為它的平行,那它那個通道其實是在所謂的鐵路進空裡面,鐵路進空,鐵路那個委員知道它的速度比較快,煞車距離很長,它也沒辦法像車子說我看到人我閃一下,沒辦法閃,所以這個對行車是"},{"start":333.513,"end":336.915,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":350.104,"end":369.386,"text":"市長今天提出這個修法那當然我知道我看交通部的意見基本上你們是不希望修這個法啦但是你們有沒有盤點過再給我一分鐘時間有沒有盤點過到底全台灣有多少類似的這樣子的車站的狀況因為包含最近有個時事新聞是這個不是山頂是暖暖車站這個山坡"},{"start":370.367,"end":370.667,"text":"議員陳俊宇"},{"start":388.362,"end":388.562,"text":"二、審查（一（"},{"start":403.424,"end":405.825,"text":"議員廖先翔等18人擬具:「鐵路法第十四條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":433.359,"end":436.007,"text":"一個月,我們一個月我們先去盤點出來。好,謝謝市長。是。好,謝謝委員。"}]}},{"id":"154507","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154507","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd2f334165a48267801363f5917c5295f547ffec24bc1a8f643740091e7a7e3d1f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:46:57 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11:53:41","影片長度":"00:06:44","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:46:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:53:41+08:00","duration":404,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":317,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時47分）謝謝主席，麻煩伍次長跟杜董事長。"],["主席：請伍次長、杜董事長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝兩位長官。這次我提出鐵路法修法，交通部也給了一些意見，當然有些意見我覺得非常實際啦！包括第七十條的對應配套，我想這部分也可以在後續針對條文提出動議修正，把項次做個調整，這是相對簡單的啦！","最近社會比較關心三貂嶺的議題，起因當然是有網紅拍影片被罰。其實，在網紅帶起這個議題之前，這個議題本身就長期困擾著在三貂嶺居住的民眾，因此我在相關新聞出來之前已經擬出鐵路法的修法案了，就是基於當地居民長期以來的通勤需求。我很簡單地問一下次長或局長，三貂嶺裡面的住戶所居住的叫做魚寮路，假設兩位長官住在三貂嶺魚寮路，請問一下兩位今天要怎麼回家？"],["伍次長勝園：針對委員剛剛提到的，我知道委員所講的，就是要通過平交道還有轉三爪溪橋的部分。我覺得應該這麼說……"],["廖委員先翔：你今天要怎麼回家？"],["伍次長勝園：我下回會去找新北市，跟他們談一下這件事。"],["廖委員先翔：你們要做的事情我知道嘛！你們可能想拓寬什麼的。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["廖委員先翔：但這是之後的事嘛！那你今天要怎麼回家？要不要借你一艘船？"],["伍次長勝園：看起來是有點困難。"],["廖委員先翔：對，這就是居民每天遭遇到的問題。我知道居民通勤的問題確實可能不是鐵路公司單方面的責任，但是現況就是這樣，我們若要改善、包括一些硬體設施的改善，都需要經費、需要時間，可能是一年、兩年，那這段時間呢？這段時間他們不用出門嗎？還是我們來苦民所苦一下，在聯外橋梁還沒做好之前，次長跟局長就跟他們一樣，都待在家裡不要出門，體驗一下他們的痛苦？"],["伍次長勝園：我想跟委員報告，短期當然就是……我們現在大概研擬出一個方案，就是剛剛講的拓寬，後續我再請臺鐵局儘快這樣做。"],["廖委員先翔：對，但建好之前怎麼辦啦？"],["伍次長勝園：如果是這中間更臨時的部分，我們再想想看有什麼其他方法。"],["廖委員先翔：所以修法是最快的路！並不是指修了之後他們就可以通過，修法可以在裡面加但書嘛！包括必須在安全的前提下，一樣由臺鐵公司提出配套措施，並不是法修了他們就可以走，還是要發揮一些警示的作用。現況其實大家都知道，只是長期以來睜一隻眼、閉一隻眼，因為不能走，所以也就不用提供一些安全的警示設施。但如果把它合法化之後，反而可以去做一些安全上的配套措施，讓民眾通勤的時候能夠走得更安全，這是沒錯的吧？"],["伍次長勝園：對，沒錯。"],["廖委員先翔：當然今天只做討論，我還是希望交通部跟臺鐵公司的大家都可以將心比心。不一定要從遊客的角度，遊客可能是一個議題，但我更在乎的是當地民眾通勤的需求，所以再拜託交通部這邊，在完成硬體配套措施之前，法令面的修正才能夠快速為民眾解決當前遇到的問題，所以再麻煩你們。","另外就是救災救難部分。不知道兩位有沒有叫過救護車？"],["伍次長勝園：沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有嘛！家裡有沒有失火過、有沒有叫過消防車？也沒有嘛！那我們都非常地幸運，沒有叫過救護車、沒有叫過消防車。但是就算我們沒有經歷過，我們也都知道，當我們有這樣需求的時候，其實分秒必爭，每延誤一分鐘，都比我們現在過一個小時還要來得痛苦。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["廖委員先翔：一樣的，我會提這個救災救難的配套措施，也是希望交通部和臺鐵公司能夠將心比心一下我們的民眾。針對他們需要緊急救護的時候，或許現在有緊急救難、救災的法案，第一現場指揮官可以做一些緊急處置，但是鐵道就在那邊啊！車輛就是過不了啊！是吧？今天消防署也有來，比如說現在要跨越鐵道，因為居民就在對面，但車要怎麼過去？車子能直接過去嗎？鐵道就是那樣的設施啊！就算讓車子過，它也過不去啊！所以一定要有一些前期配套措施、硬體設施先在那邊做好，當救災、救護車輛需要經過的時候，能夠第一時間就鋪設好、讓他們通過。對於這兩點，不曉得次長跟董事長同不同意？"],["伍次長勝園：我這樣跟委員報告啦！以剛剛第二個問題中的救護車來講的話，其實還必須有兩邊道路，這部分需要地方政府。如果光是開個平交道就好，也許我們可以考量看看怎麼開平交道，但……"],["廖委員先翔：就是因為沒辦法開平交道，所以才有這個問題。當地以前其實是一條道路，大家都可以走，但就是因為臺鐵做好之後……這是早年、以前的事啦！不可考了，但路就變得沒辦法走了，而現在他們有緊急救難、救援的需求。我們或許可以先把一般通勤需求撇開，因為畢竟還是可以繞路，可能多個五分鐘、多個十分鐘，一樣可以過。但是有緊急救災、救護需求的時候，五分鐘、十分鐘對人家來說都如同好幾個小時的煎熬。"],["伍次長勝園：好，對於委員指教這個，也就是在緊急情況下，我想我們可以考慮，看看怎麼……"],["廖委員先翔：對，如果把一些緊急配套的硬體措施以及需要做的配套就準備好，他們有需要的時候就可以馬上使用。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["廖委員先翔：以上麻煩次長跟董事長，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員發言。","下一位請黃健豪委員發言。","徐委員，你等一下急不急？12點了，是不是到你質詢完、到你為止？還是怎麼樣？到你為止喔！"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：那就等一下好不好？","請繼續。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 一) 委員陳俊宇等24 人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.8703437500000002,"end":2.0559687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":2.2078437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.2078437500000003,"end":2.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.898468750000003,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.93971875,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.989093750000002,"end":54.992843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.440343750000004,"end":53.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.617218750000006,"end":84.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.65909375000001,"end":87.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.19846875,"end":97.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.51784375000001,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.23471875000001,"end":109.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.05721875,"end":103.18784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.90034375,"end":114.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.83221875000001,"end":112.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.51471875000001,"end":118.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.71284375,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.79721875000001,"end":120.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.41721875,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.19284375000001,"end":126.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.55971875,"end":145.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.25284375,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.91909375,"end":149.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.42096875000001,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.55159375000002,"end":156.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.27221875,"end":157.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.79096875000002,"end":162.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.14909375000002,"end":162.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.33034375,"end":164.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.50721875000002,"end":175.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.08409375000002,"end":174.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.80096875,"end":183.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.84659375,"end":185.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.33534375000002,"end":198.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.38159375,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.44721875000002,"end":201.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.68721875,"end":202.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.15534375000001,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.99909375000001,"end":219.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.57034375,"end":221.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.81909375,"end":222.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.54471875000002,"end":244.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.88721875000002,"end":251.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.97471875000002,"end":253.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.33284375000002,"end":256.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.91471875,"end":258.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.26909375,"end":260.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.71159375,"end":271.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.98846875000004,"end":272.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.72659375,"end":274.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.68846875,"end":275.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.30846875000003,"end":283.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.53596875,"end":278.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.63721875000005,"end":278.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.47596875,"end":297.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.12784375,"end":298.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.35971875,"end":302.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.81471875,"end":310.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.42971875,"end":311.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.75846875,"end":336.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.88971875000004,"end":336.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.63221875000005,"end":353.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.35159375,"end":353.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.73096875000005,"end":353.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.35534375000003,"end":354.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.38909375000003,"end":360.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.76784375,"end":364.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.37471875,"end":367.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.19284375,"end":371.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.60159375,"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﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":163.376,"end":163.516,"text":"主席"},{"start":185.43,"end":185.85,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":203.42,"end":219.709,"text":"憲控其實大家都知道我藏起來都睜一隻眼閉一隻眼因為不能走所以我們不用提供一些安全的警示設施如果我們把它合法化了之後我們反而可以去做一些安全的一些配套的措施讓民眾通行的時候能夠走得更安全"},{"start":220.612,"end":224.293,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":241.118,"end":242.92,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":261.735,"end":263.137,"text":"議員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":273.909,"end":301.494,"text":"五秒必爭每延誤一分鐘都比我們現在一個小時還要的痛苦那一樣我會提這個救災救難的一個配套措施也是一樣希望我們能夠交通部跟台鐵公司能夠將心比心向我們的民眾當他需要緊急救護的時候我們或許現在我們有說緊急救難這個救災的法案依現場指揮官可以去做一些緊急的處置但是我們的配套就在那邊啊我們的車輛就是過不了啊"},{"start":303.831,"end":311.852,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":312.756,"end":312.796,"text":"議員陳俊宇"},{"start":338.555,"end":364.53,"text":"我想我這樣跟委員報告啦齁,鋼鐵如果以救護車來講的話,那其實兩邊的道路還必須要有。那這部分地方政府,如果說光我們已經開個平交道,也許我可以來考量一下怎麼開平交道,但因為就是沒辦法開平交道,所以才有這個問題。以前其實是一個道路啦,它以前是一個道路,大家都可以走,就是因為我們台鐵做好了之後,就早年以前的事啦不可考了,變成路沒辦法走了。"},{"start":365.584,"end":367.166,"text":"議員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":391.729,"end":392.329,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答 （第二案僅進行詢答"}]}},{"id":"154502","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154502","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd877e90811c5ee7561363f5917c5295f5e8e3eb0bf88d021cb8e2350fbdd246935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:37:38 - 11:46:49","影片長度":"00:09:11","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:37:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:46:49+08:00","duration":551,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":282,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時37分）謝謝主席，有請伍次長、鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請伍次長、鐵道局楊局長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：今天正好是一位次長、一位局長，過去是鐵道局的局長、副局長，然後現在先後是……我們一路打拼，在很多桃園軌道工程，其實我看到你們兩位真的是比較務實，是專業、務實且比較少政治性地來解決問題。首先，對於過去很多的工作，尤其在伍局長任內，現在你是次長，在去年7月能夠準時幫我們的機捷再向前一哩路，通到A22站，我還是要感謝你。但今天最主要是要討論鐵路地下化在桃園段的情況，我們討論了非常多次，在伍局長任內，我們也溝通了非常多次，但有一個事情我非常好奇，在去年9月交接之前，我們大概每3個月會跟鐵道局調個文，尤其針對經費、時程的部分。截至9月在伍局長任內，感覺上經費多的距離也不大，當時還是維持1,048億這樣一個基調，然後完工日期，每次給我們的也大約是原本的完工日期，但奇怪了，9月份楊局長一接，3個月前、3月22日當時說要延3年，到底是延3年還是4年？沒關係，現在到底延3年還是4年？現在經費概算結果到底是增加多少？兩位要不要說一下？"],["伍次長勝園：這個我先說明一下，當時我在當局長的時候，就有碰到物調的問題，其實那時候大概就會增加400億左右，後來我離開，那時候楊局長接了以後，有所謂繼續南延的那一段，那一段大概1.2公里，大概也增加了不少錢，所以這樣整個加起來的話，不曉得現在……"],["魯委員明哲：就老實估算大概是多少！我覺得早講會比晚講好一點。"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，要七百七左右。"],["魯委員明哲：七百七十億？"],["楊局長正君：是。"],["魯委員明哲：好。","但第二個我比較好奇。其實照我們看，因為疫情、尤其原物料和人工上漲，這是真的沒有辦法。可是以我們看到的幾百億、甚至一千億的公共工程，一般來說，最後大概是漲30%到50%的比較多一點，像你們這種從1,048億漲到像你剛剛講的770億的話，最後的結果會是1,800億！哇！漲七成五啊！這個部分會讓我們覺得財務上是有點憂心啊！","第二個問題，我想直接請鐵道局楊局長來回答好不好？我上次總質詢中關心了三個議題啦！是可能會造成延誤的三大議題。第一，投影片上打勾這三個站現在還沒發包，因為沒錢發包，分別是內壢車站、桃醫車站跟鳳鳴車站。現在修正計畫報的進度如何？這三個還沒發包的車站預計什麼時候可以發包？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，現在修正計畫正在積極進行當中，分局已經報到局裡面來，我們最近審查完就會報到交通部、往後提報。至於我們的管控進度，是希望在年底要把修正計畫完成核定，明年六月之前把剩下三個標完成工程發包。"],["魯委員明哲：好，就是在今年年底把修正計畫完成？程序還很多啦！我們在地方跑過這些，包括又要經過國發會再到行政院等等，這樣繞來繞去的，這部份我們希望速度加快。那桃園站的文資問題呢？有沒有進度？有沒有向前走啊？"],["楊局長正君：關於桃園站的文資議題，我們最近才會進場，也就是真正做工程方面的工作。我們已經陸續跟桃園捷運局那邊原來做文資處理的團隊及桃園捷運局保持密切的合作，在這個地方來協助。"],["魯委員明哲：就是繼續沿用原來溝通完成的團隊，溝通會好一點喔！"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["魯委員明哲：好不好？有朝這個方向嘛！"],["楊局長正君：有、是。"],["魯委員明哲：第三個是平鎮呢？平鎮段也要等修正計畫嘛！是不是？"],["伍次長勝園：延伸的部分要等修正計畫。"],["魯委員明哲：平鎮延伸、南延嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["楊局長正君：對，剛剛講到從六百多億變成七百多億，當中其實有一段是這個地方加了一百多億啦！"],["魯委員明哲：好。","我們看到每一個站的經費事實上都成長了非常多啦！你剛剛也承認啊！大概總經費會成長到比原本經費超過七成五以上喔！但是我比較擔心，其實我過去對桃園市政府，也就是當市議員期間，當時就有跟鄭市長說，像這種重大工程動輒幾百億，就算分擔完，我們也要出幾百億，那就要像買房子一樣，年輕人買房子不能今天買今天去，而是有了這個計畫要先存嘛！先存個十年，頭期款存到之後開始做會比較輕鬆。所以那時候他也說好，每一年自己撥個五億、十億，想說存個八年也有個四、五十億啦！可是我看到現在經費要從1,048億調到1,800億，可能喔！所以我們也在想，哇！鐵路地下化推那麼多年、講了這麼久，桃園市政府針對鐵路地下化這件事，到底自己存在自己戶頭多少錢，包括他已經存了多少錢、你們又已經提撥了多少錢？我想至少要兩成吧！不過，實際狀況上，截至昨天為止，原本1,048億中，地方要出262億，中央是786億；但是到112年，大概過去五、六年的時間，桃園市政府只付了14.19億，中央是53.47億，至於今年度、113年編了7億。所以桃園市政府面對這麼大的議題，地方上這七、八年也宣導無數，論功勞已經把八個勳章背走了，但是一看，哎喲！既然要出262億，那好歹要兩成吧！弄個50億，給大家「聞香」一下，結果只存了14億。這是發生什麼事啊！你現在看看投影片右邊的數據。其實我是憂心啦！現在要調成你剛剛講的1,800億，就算是我當時說的多700億好了，就是1,748億，地方一按照25%的比例計算，要出437億，但是看到下面，到今年為止，只提撥或付款21億，還欠多少？415億。如果你們在112年能夠完工，未來仍有九年時間要提撥，尤其是愈接近完工，可能一年要編個八十億、一百億。","那中央呢？你們在預算增加之後要出1,311億，而截至目前為止，經費的到位率也只有6.6%，還欠1,223億。像這種從南到北的軌道工程非常多、非常多，我建議你們中央、地方都要非常小心自己的財務計畫。以當時想像，你們每一年預算就這麼多，但只要能夠在還沒開工的時候，每一年先存一點、存一點、存一點，開工的時候已經有一定的錢了。結果一翻開帳本，才發現大家都是過一年算一年，到了卸任那一年就換別人了。這部分是不是要跟桃園市政府好好討論？這也是地方上覺得財劃法必須修的主要原因啦！那你們對於中央的財政到位有沒有信心啊？"],["伍次長勝園：中央的財務部分沒有問題啊！其實我們就114年這一年，針對桃地的部分大概已經編列、匡了159億，也就是將近160億。"],["魯委員明哲：所以匡了一百五十幾億嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：160億、159億。"],["魯委員明哲：那我可以跟你報告一下，地方政府今年是編7億，明年原本應該要匡個四、五十億，但大概只有10億啦！你們大概要討論一下，千萬不要因為財務問題再讓已經延宕的工程繼續延誤，好不好？謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：是、好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員的發言。","下一位請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 一) 委員陳俊宇等24 人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.2122187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.127218750000001,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.17346875,"end":6.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.11846875,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.852218750000002,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.05034375,"end":29.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.28784375,"end":43.602218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.142218750000005,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.48784375,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.158468750000004,"end":58.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.05971875,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.69534375,"end":73.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.44971875,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.86284375000001,"end":88.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.69221875000001,"end":92.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.53971875,"end":95.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.49284375,"end":96.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.47159375000001,"end":99.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.09971875000001,"end":105.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.15784375000001,"end":107.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.32221875,"end":109.09409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.27534375,"end":111.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.51971875000001,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.82784375,"end":140.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.66721875000002,"end":141.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.88221875000002,"end":144.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.05909375000002,"end":146.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.01221875000002,"end":148.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.39596875,"end":148.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.86846875,"end":149.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.43784375,"end":162.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.77346875,"end":164.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.83221875,"end":168.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.61221875,"end":170.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.09284375000001,"end":176.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.09596875,"end":180.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.16721875000002,"end":185.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.58846875,"end":189.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.00971875000002,"end":194.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.30846875,"end":195.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.05096875,"end":200.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.91096875000002,"end":202.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.83471875,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.25221875000003,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.70659375000002,"end":232.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.42909375000002,"end":239.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.55471875,"end":242.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.16596875000002,"end":249.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.46034375000002,"end":250.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.99596875,"end":267.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.80784375,"end":274.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.76971875000004,"end":267.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.22909375,"end":273.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.37221875,"end":274.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.68846875,"end":280.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.89846875,"end":284.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.31596875,"end":289.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.57721875000004,"end":285.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.79159375,"end":292.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.06534375,"end":297.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.46534375000005,"end":301.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.77284375,"end":303.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.42659375,"end":304.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.48534375,"end":325.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.27971875000003,"end":326.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.13596875,"end":330.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.62909375000004,"end":333.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.51471875000004,"end":338.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.57721875000004,"end":339.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.50096875,"end":344.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.31034375,"end":3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這個部分這個部分讓我們覺得財務上是有點憂心那第二個問題我想直接鐵道局楊局長你來回答好不好"},{"start":190.083,"end":209.502,"text":"我上次總質詢關心這個三個議題啦,可能會造成延誤的三大議題。第一個,因為現在三個,上面打勾的三個站還沒發包,因為沒錢發包。內地車站、桃一車站跟鳳鳴車站,現在大概修正計畫報的進度如何?預計這三個還沒發包的車站,什麼時候預計可以發包?"},{"start":213.986,"end":232.342,"text":"現在修正計劃正在積極進行當中分局已經報到局裡面來我們最近會審查完就會報到交通部往後面去提報那我們的管控進度是希望在年底要把修正計劃完成核定明年六月之前把剩下的三個標來做完成的工程發保"},{"start":233.439,"end":250.691,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":251.304,"end":279.773,"text":"桃園站的文資議題呢因為我們最近才會進場就是真正去做工程方面的工作那我們已經陸續跟原來就是桃園捷運局那邊文資處理的團隊跟桃園捷運局保持密切的合作在這個地方來就是原來有溝通完成的團隊繼續來沿用他們溝通會好一點喔是的好不好有朝這個方向嗎是有那第三個是這個我們憑證呢憑證段這個也是要等修正計畫嗎"},{"start":281.033,"end":282.014,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":305.523,"end":306.243,"text":"議員廖先翔等18人擬具"},{"start":334.63,"end":362.751,"text":"五億、十億、想要存個八年有個四、五十億可是我看到現在經費從一零四八要調到一千八百億可能喔那我們在想哇,鐵路地下化要退這麼多年講了這麼久桃園市政府針對於鐵路地下化這件事到底自己存在自己的戶頭多少錢到底要他存多少錢你們已經提供了多少錢我在想至少要兩成吧"},{"start":366.29,"end":376.074,"text":"實際的狀況,截至昨天為止,原本1048億,地方要出262億,中央786億。過去到112年,大概5、6年的時間,臺灣市政府只有付了14.19億,中央無3.47億。今年度113年,"},{"start":393.237,"end":395.118,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":423.712,"end":424.132,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":444.241,"end":471.613,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":471.693,"end":497.272,"text":"一、二、二、三、一那像這種從南到北的軌道工程非常多非常多我建議你們要非常自己中央地方都要非常小心自己的財務計劃因為可以當時想像的說每一年你們的預算就這麼多能夠在還沒開工的時候每一年先存一點存一點存一點開工的時候已經有一定有錢了結果一翻開帳本"},{"start":498.695,"end":515.333,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":516.648,"end":526.099,"text":"中央的這個財務部分沒有問題啊,我們114年,其實這一年我們逃避的部分大概已經編列框了159億,就是將近160億。所以,框了150幾億嘛?160億。那我可以跟你報告一下齁,"},{"start":532.466,"end":552.022,"text":"議員議員議員議員"}]}},{"id":"154500","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154500","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdb3dd14c33d1f049a1363f5917c5295f5e8e3eb0bf88d021cb0d6301640ef21585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:28:05 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11:35:05","影片長度":"00:07:00","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:28:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:35:05+08:00","duration":420,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":241,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時28分）謝謝雪生召委，我們是不是請次長？"],["主席：請伍次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：伍次長好。首先先謝謝，昨天臺中捷運的橘線可行性通過了吧？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["何委員欣純：在昨天的會議裡面，我知道有學者專家針對線型的規劃有一些意見，但是我們還是讓它先通過，然後附帶一些建議、附帶條件，對不對？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["何委員欣純：請問一下，我知道有一個是有關共構的問題，因為以現在看到的規劃，橘線從清泉岡機場來到車站，往屯區、大里那邊過去到霧峰，但是在車站那個部分，第一個，有沒有跟臺鐵的車站共構？第二個，我們還有一個客運的轉運站；第三個，有沒有跟藍線共構交集？次長，請就你的瞭解說明。"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，昨天大概有很多委員針對這個有意見，目前規劃大概380公尺，如果是完全共構大概不可能，但越靠近越好，現在要靠近的話，大概就會使用到臺鐵要都更的那塊地，我昨天是有跟臺中市政府建議，如果把捷運站引進來，你給它容積率、建蔽率的獎勵，那這樣不是雙贏嗎？旅客也方便，也可以帶動整個地區的發展，這是我昨天跟臺中市政府的建議，到後面綜規的時候，我們希望那個階段可以有一個比較明確的……"],["何委員欣純：可以看得到明確的規劃，是不是？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["何委員欣純：我下個禮拜一也要邀請交通委員會去看車站那邊的現場，也希望次長跟部長能夠把……這個共構雖然已經看起來沒辦法，但是一定要把那個距離拉近，因為我們到國外都會看到，對很多大城市的捷運系統來講，它一定要有一個短距離的連結，這樣交通、經濟效益才會最大化，如果離很遠的情況之下，我現在很擔心，捷運跟車站離很遠的情況之下，如果我們要吸引外國觀光客或是我們自己本國的國旅，臺中市這個城市要發展捷運系統、要路網，我們都期待的情況之下，要提供便利又優質的交通運具，光是在車站的這一關，看起來好像就不是那麼便利，而且你要知道臺灣很熱，臺中天氣又特別好，尤其非常的酷熱，酷熱之中，這個銜接、轉運的，不管你未來是要用廊道或是用什麼樣的方式，距離太遙遠真的會很熱，這會是一個很大的問題。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["何委員欣純：再拜託次長，是不是再跟鐵道局一起多關心臺中市政府後續的規劃，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是，應該的。"],["何委員欣純：能儘量協助、解決，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["何委員欣純：第二個，我想請教次長，最近疫情升溫，暑假又是一個觀光、遊客、臺灣國人移動的最旺季，大眾運輸跟旅宿業有什麼因應作為嗎？次長，現在疫情流行到小孩子有腸病毒、諾羅病毒，又有新冠疫情，就連老人家都躲不過，我聽聞我身邊，其實不分年齡層，幾乎都有所謂的疫情升溫或者是受到疫情感染的現象，有越來越多人。次長，這個部分，你們怎麼樣來確保在暑假期間旅遊的大旺季，也是國人移動最長的一個時間點裡面，針對疫情，你們有什麼看法和建議？"],["伍次長勝園：是，關於疫情升溫，確實目前看到一些報導大概是這樣子，我想我們後面，以交通業來講，我們會配合衛福部，他如果有公布相關的措施，我們會來配合辦理。"],["何委員欣純：我是建議啦，不要被動地請衛福部來公布，是不是可以先行跟衛福部來討論？"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["何委員欣純：因為第一個，我們大眾運輸，包括鐵道、包括高鐵、包括各地方政府的大眾運輸系統，我覺得這個是國人在生活面裡面最關心的一件事情。第二個，我們現在是觀光季，旅宿業相關的防範或者是整潔的措施能不能到位、衛生的條件能不能嚴格的要求，這些都會是外國觀光客願不願意選擇來臺灣觀光的考量因素，好不好？你們要主動啦！"],["伍次長勝園：好，我們再主動找衛福部來瞭解一下。"],["何委員欣純：謝謝。最後的最後只有一個，我是提醒臺鐵，你們現在公司化了，營運要有盈餘，我知道現行臺鐵有所謂的PASS，有學生、國人用的，也有供給外國觀光客購買的，我是建議，我們現在常常到國外自助行，我們到了國外自助時，會看到歐美、日本對於鐵道的周遊券，不管是什麼PASS，都很彈性而且有多元組合，對於這個東西，我覺得你們現在公司化了，應該要更有行銷的彈性、特殊性和便利性，這樣才能夠促成外國觀光客來臺自由行也好，或者是其他行程的安排也好，他才能夠深度旅遊，才能夠真正地認識臺灣。這個臺鐵可以規劃嗎？"],["杜董事長微：可以，我們來研議。"],["何委員欣純：你研議一下，我相信你也走過很多國家，事實上很多國家的大城市對它的大眾運輸的鐵路周遊券，甚至有搭配公路，甚至搭配很多套裝的旅遊行程，這個是非常多元且成熟的模式，我覺得臺鐵應該要好好趕快地來研議、趕快地來行銷，好不好？謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","現在處理臨時提案。本日一共有兩案，請議事人員一併宣讀。","一、","案由：本院委員廖先翔等人，有鑑於現行鐵路法第五十七條第二項規定，「行人、車輛不得侵入鐵路路線、橋梁、隧道內及站區內非供公眾通行之處所。」然而，有些當地情況具特殊性，以生活在新北市著名景點的瑞芳區三貂嶺居民及遊客為例，若要往返車站與住家或前往觀光秘境，都必須穿越鐵道橋或鐵軌，因為沒有其他合法替代道路通行，除造成不知情民眾受罰之外，亦讓當地居民長期處在非法的通勤生活中。此外，某些道路因鐵路路線設置導致無法通行，亦影響救災通行需求。雖依據災害防救法相關規定，當災害或緊急狀況發生時，災害應變中心或指揮官得命令執行緊急應變計畫之各項措施。然而災害發生轉瞬之間，時間是關鍵因素，若能前瞻性的具體規劃救災通道，亦有利於相關單位平時更好地進行預防和準備工作、制定緊急通行計畫、行定期演練等因應。爰此，請國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司為特殊需求，應於一個月內提出相關配套管理及安全措施，於特定路段、時段開放行人、車輛進入鐵路路線及場、站區內非供公眾通行之處所等，並規劃穿越軌道路線以滿足救災需求。以因應災害發生，並保障居民與遊客基本通行權利。是否有當？請公決案。","提案人：廖先翔　　林沛祥　　游　顥　　邱若華　　魯明哲","二、","2024年4月3日花蓮地震後，交通部觀光署推出「振興獎勵補助方案」，對自由行與團體旅遊入住花蓮縣與臺東縣進行補助。然而，臺東縣與宜蘭縣於震後旅宿業者住房率下降幅度接近，且據諸多宜蘭縣觀光業相關協會反映，目前暑假訂房率僅約2成，上開補助未納入宜蘭縣，實嚴重打擊宜蘭觀光業，侵害宜蘭縣民之權益。","有鑑於觀光業影響宜蘭縣整體產業發展甚鉅，建請交通部觀光署評估「振興獎勵補助方案」納入宜蘭縣之可行性，比照臺東縣對自由行與團體旅遊入住宜蘭縣進行補助，於一週內將評估報告送交交通委員會。","提案人：林國成　　魯明哲　　林沛祥　　游　顥　　陳雪生　　邱若華"],["主席：各位委員跟交通部有沒有意見？請。"],["杜董事長微：第二案我們建議倒數第四行最右邊「於特定路段」的前面加上「研議」兩個字。"],["主席：好，這是第一案嘛？"],["杜董事長微：他剛剛說第二案。"],["主席：第二案喔？好，第二案，各位委員有沒有意見？沒意見就修正通過。","第三案，有沒有意見？沒意見就照案通過。","下一位請魯明哲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 一) 委員陳俊宇等24 人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.7353437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.42721875,"end":3.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.55346875,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.995968750000001,"end":8.856593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.04534375,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.93971875,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.817218750000002,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.07034375,"end":23.875343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.00221875,"end":24.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.90909375,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.27409375,"end":37.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.04596875,"end":48.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.479093750000004,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.97221875,"end":52.478468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.46534375,"end":68.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.23534375,"end":76.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.35221875,"end":91.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.25346875000001,"end":88.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.06721875000001,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.21409375,"end":117.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.43596875,"end":109.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.98846875000001,"end":110.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.64596875000001,"end":118.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.44721875,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.40909375000001,"end":128.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.95596875,"end":134.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.82846875,"end":143.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.01409375,"end":135.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.85784375,"end":136.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.82284375,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.96534375000002,"end":150.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.25221875,"end":176.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.23971875,"end":176.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.69534375,"end":200.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.23659375000003,"end":196.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.02909375000002,"end":209.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.45471875,"end":205.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.47971875000002,"end":206.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.22596875000002,"end":211.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.94721875000002,"end":219.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.26659375000003,"end":225.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.69596875000002,"end":227.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.96159375000002,"end":230.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.09221875,"end":268.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.17909375,"end":280.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.76346875,"end":307.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.09659375,"end":282.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.16784375000003,"end":285.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.93096875000003,"end":289.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.38784375,"end":327.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.52971875000003,"end":318.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.76096875,"end":324.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.63846875,"end":329.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.76034375,"end":328.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.65471875000003,"end":342.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.35721875,"end":359.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.29534375000003,"end":367.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.87221875,"end":384.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.81471875,"end":385.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.06346875,"end":387.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.83534375000005,"end":396.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.45846875,"end":409.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.77284375000005,"end":414.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.49784375,"end":415.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.34971875,"end":419.56034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":0.109,"text":"委員好"},{"start":18.455,"end":36.364,"text":"首先先謝謝昨天台中捷運的局限可行性通過了在昨天的會議裡面我知道有學者專家針對一些現行的規劃有一些意見但是我們還是讓他先通過然後附帶一些建議附帶條件"},{"start":39.525,"end":68.485,"text":"請問一下我這有一個是有關供購的問題因為呢以現在看到的規劃局限他從清泉崗機場來到這個車站那往我屯區大理那邊過去到霧峰但是呢在車站那一個部分呢我們知道第一個有沒有跟台鐵的車站供購第二個我們的還有一個客運的轉運站第三個呢有沒有跟藍線供購交集來來市長你就理解了解"},{"start":69.612,"end":94.954,"text":"我跟委員報告所以這是昨天大概有很多人針對這個有意見目前規劃大概380公尺那他如果要靠近比較靠近共過完全共過大概不可能但是越靠近越好那些越靠近的話大概就會用到使用到台鐵他要讀工的那塊地那我昨天是跟台中市政府有跟他建議如果你把這個捷運站引進來你給他獎勵嘛"},{"start":97.244,"end":118.439,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":118.679,"end":142.893,"text":"我下個禮拜一也要邀請我們交通委員會去看車站那邊的現場也希望市長跟部長能夠把這個共構雖然已經看起來沒辦法但是一定要把那個距離拉近因為我們去到國外看到對很多大城市的捷運系統來講它一定要有一個"},{"start":143.814,"end":146.015,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":172.128,"end":182.613,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案件事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案件事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案件事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具:「鐵路法第五十三條條條文修正草案案件事宜。"},{"start":201.321,"end":227.235,"text":"關心一下我們臺中市政府後續的一個規劃啦好不好能盡量協助解決啦好不好那第二個我要想請教這個次長最近疫情升溫那暑假呢又是一個觀光大家遊客臺灣國人移動的一個最旺季那我們大眾運輸跟旅宿業有怎麼的一個因應次長你是"},{"start":229.325,"end":251.406,"text":"你說這個疫情真的流行到小孩子有腸病毒、諾蘿病毒然後又有這個新冠疫情然後連老人家其實我聽聞我身邊其實不分年齡層幾乎都有所謂的疫情升溫或者是受到疫情的感染的現象越來越多人"},{"start":252.567,"end":280.188,"text":"那這個部分次長我們可以怎麼樣的來確保這個暑假期間旅遊的大旺季那也是國人移動的一個最最最最長的一個時間點裡面針對疫情我們有什麼看法是這個疫情身份是確實目前看到一些報導大概是這樣子那我想我們後面因為以我們交通業來講我希望大概我們會配合衛部他如果有什麼公佈相關的措施我們來配合辦理"},{"start":281.008,"end":307.061,"text":"我是建議不要被動的請衛福部來公布是不是應該可以先行跟衛福部來討論因為第一個我們大眾運輸包括鐵道包括高鐵那包括我們很多各地方政府的大眾運輸系統我覺得這個是國人在生活面裡面最關心的一件事情第二個我們現在是觀光季那旅宿業的"},{"start":308.402,"end":309.864,"text":"我們再主動我們再找衛生部我們再調解一下"},{"start":329.223,"end":354.035,"text":"謝謝那最後的最後只有一個我是提醒台鐵我們現在公司化了要營運要營餘我知道現行我們台鐵有所謂的那個pass這個pass呢這有學生國人用的用供給外國國防科購買採購的我是建議我們現在都常常到國外自助行我們到了國外自助行我們看到歐美日本他們對鐵道的周遊券"},{"start":355.015,"end":359.041,"text":"不管是什麼PASS都很彈性而且多元組合。"},{"start":360.842,"end":382.034,"text":"這個東西我覺得我們現在公司化了我們應該要更有行銷的一個彈性跟特殊性還有便利性這樣子才能夠促成外國觀光客來臺自由行也好或者是其他的一個行程的安排也好他才能夠深度旅遊才能夠真正的認識臺灣這個台鐵可以規劃嗎"},{"start":386.249,"end":386.269,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":417.421,"end":419.087,"text":"好,謝謝何清淳委員。"}]}},{"id":"154496","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154496","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd1f4c89b5a059091a1363f5917c5295f5e8e3eb0bf88d021c4ce78548ac6631505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"11:20:57 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11:27:54","影片長度":"00:06:57","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:20:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:27:54+08:00","duration":417,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":225,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（11時20分）謝謝主席，本席邀請交通部伍次長、鐵道局楊局長、臺鐵杜董事長。"],["主席：次長、局長、杜董事長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：次長好。我要先請教一下次長還有鐵道局局長，臺南市政府已經把一個非常重要的臺南市捷運的規劃案送進鐵道局，臺南市叫做藍線的延伸，我們就簡稱為藍延線，即藍線的延伸線。這個非常重要，它大概是一個T字型的，從仁德到關廟，就是所謂的南關線，其中在仁德中山路那裡又有一個站往南，呈現T字型，往南是到高鐵特區，那邊大概有成大校區站、高鐵臺南站，科學城、AI生態園區大概都在那個地方，這個藍線延伸線非常重要，所以請鐵道局能夠儘速審議，因為未來我覺得南關線這一塊是臺南的另外一顆鑽石，現在幾乎所有國家重要的研究機構都在那個地方，而且未來會有無限的發展可能，因為那邊的土地足夠，交通又非常方便，因為就在高鐵站附近，所以這樣的一個捷運線我們當然要超前部署，請鐵道局這邊能夠加快速度協助臺南市政府，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好，我跟委員報告，當時大概幾個單位有把意見給臺南市政府，臺南市政府已經在6月21號又送進來了，所以我們近日會安排審議會議，來加速這條線的審議進度。"],["林委員俊憲：好，也感謝次長還有局長的協助。另外我要請教臺鐵杜董事長，次長也要幫我們關心，本席接到一個陳情案，有一個搭車的民眾心臟病發，他的親人一起在車上，結果在車上呼救無門，列車上也沒有加裝AED（自動體外心臟電擊器），所以不幸的他去世了。現在臺鐵最新的車廂都有，但是剛好在這個時間點，舊的自強號在全面改造，是不是舊的自強號全面改造的時候應該也要裝上這樣的一個急救設備？請問杜董事長，有這樣的規劃嗎？"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，的確我們PP的動改案現在正在進行，因為PP還是屬於我們……，尤其是西部幹線的城際列車，到站的間距比較長，在車上的時間比較多，所以我們未來在動改的過程中會把PP的車廂加裝AED。"],["林委員俊憲：因為現在舊自強號大概有兩、三百個老舊的車廂在改造，這個一定要裝上去。我舉個例子，像高鐵不用講，像捷運，在法令規定上並沒有列為必要裝的，但機捷就有裝，因為我們有一個長距離交通工具，但它只有列到高鐵、飛機，沒有列到臺鐵，但實際上以目前這種保健的觀念、急救的觀念，應該要有，所以你新買的車廂都有，臺鐵有一些車站之間的間距會很遠，尤其像花東，我舉幾個例子，像南澳到花蓮要40分鐘才能停，蘇澳到新城也是差不多40分鐘，所以應該利用這次改造把這個地方給補起來，像AED這種急救設備應該列為現在改裝車廂的標準配備。"],["杜董事長微：是，我們來辦。"],["林委員俊憲：因為確實有發生過乘客不幸在車上死亡的案例，根據醫療報告，只要在一分鐘以內有使用AED急救，有90%救活的比例，救人一命，功德無量。","另外，臺鐵在今年正式公司化，臺鐵公司化以後待遇有沒有提高？有沒有辦法吸引人才到臺鐵來？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，現在臺鐵是雙軌制，我們選擇舊軌，就是資位人員的話，是有這個規定，這個要提高的話並不容易，但是我們新招的從業人員，如果來公司裡面，他夠努力、績效好的話，他的年薪是有機會超過同等資位的留任人員。"],["林委員俊憲：但是看起來薪資水準還是偏低，不要說跟高鐵這種比較有錢的公司比，你看高鐵平均薪資是8萬9，快9萬，臺鐵才4萬9，薪資的中位數大概差不多是高鐵的五成多一點而已，其中有些特殊人員的薪資更低，即臺鐵的勞安和醫護人員，我們對勞安、醫護人員要求很高，因為那個有專業，必須要有雙證照等等，而且吃飯還要自己付錢，結果起薪才兩萬五千多，我看隨便比一個人力銀行上面應徵的業界平均標準都要低很多，你這樣當然找不到人啦！","臺鐵在公司化後第一次招考，次長，你知道考多少人嗎？考936人，結果錄取了756人，錄取率大概只有80%，其他大概都沒有人來，然後報到率又再扣個5%，一年後的離職率大概也有百分之十幾，所以臺鐵常常在缺人，像臺東段的電機人員要招募7人，只有1個來報名，照理講，錄取率百分之百，來報考的人數都比不上準備要應徵的，結果那個人資格不符，那也沒辦法，只好不錄取。整體薪資結構不改變的話，臺鐵現在公司化以後，這個部分應該是一個重點，希望交通部能夠讓臺鐵的公司化有實質的意義，好不好？這樣才不會辜負員工還有社會對你們的期待，謝謝次長。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：何欣純委員詢答完畢後處理臨時提案。請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 一) 委員陳俊宇等24 人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 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"start":557.512,"end":586.329,"text":"這次確實是在花蓮地區的最近就近日從這邊看起來真的是很多土石流的部分就過去真的是比較少見過去大概落石比較多那這是我們現在研判大概應該就是上次地震的關係有些是在上面已經鬆動了經過近日的下雨整個就土石流下來沒有關係你等於沒有在回答本席的問題本席說這個問題到底要怎麼處理這已經是老生常談了嘛"},{"start":588.296,"end":604.331,"text":"對嗎?你在局裡服務到當局長一直到當次長老生常談我們看一下告警系統我們現在看一下告警系統告警系統之前從104年開始這樣表列出來這個告警系統這是104年"},{"start":614.588,"end":633.155,"text":"一百零四年開始那個比較模糊那個照相檔把它列出來是一百零四年開始這個計畫一百零四年邊坡告警系統原本是在一百零九年要完成"},{"start":636.038,"end":657.684,"text":"本信箱讓你知道104年到109年應該要完成的結果沒有完成因為交通部的告警系統設置去延緩延緩之後本來109年要完工因為沒有完工造成110年4月2號0402太魯閣號事件49條人命損失"},{"start":663.672,"end":683.286,"text":"因為你們的工程延誤造成告急系統沒有做好49條人命現在同個地方鐵路又出軌。社長東部的人命這麼不受到重視嗎?"},{"start":686.394,"end":709.034,"text":"你們工程的延誤造成49條人命的損失告警系統沒有設立完整接下來又發生這樣的事情市長本席今天請教你的問題請有一個明確的書面的回答"},{"start":711.574,"end":736.224,"text":"請部裡面給我一個明確的回答。還有本席在這裡齁,請那個主席齁。這裡要一個明確的。齁,那個,那個,好,我們主席回來了。我要請主席啊,因為剛剛我們在詢問啊,部長為什麼沒有來齁。然後,對,部長請假,那請問部長去哪裡?"},{"start":738.78,"end":760.755,"text":"本席剛剛請教次長跟董事長都不知道部長去哪裡整個交通部都不知道今天部長去哪裡本席現在在這裡希望主席這邊要做一個折騰跟一個決定部長今天要去花蓮關心花蓮我們很高興"},{"start":763.22,"end":788.126,"text":"我們也很歡迎但是一個堂堂中華民國的一個部長去花蓮我們在地的人立委沒有人知道你們到地方是要偷偷摸摸沒有任何人知道嗎通知一下有問題嗎現在行政官員傲慢到這種程度嗎地方都不用通知嗎"},{"start":791.653,"end":812.41,"text":"是不是請主席齁,這個交通部還是我們各部會,到哪一個地方去,你希望國會議員你要起碼一個尊重一個兆會聯席嘛。因為本席今天來這裡就是要問部長的。我是到了這裡聽你宣讀完我才知道,啊部長去花蓮了。為什麼我們都不知道?"},{"start":816.658,"end":832.126,"text":"請主席拜託他可以請假他可以請假沒有關係他可以請假沒有關係但起碼你要去哪一個在地要通知在地我們在地完全不知道所以今天來這裡撲空不然我在華林等他就好了"},{"start":833.274,"end":846.782,"text":"市長回去跟部長報告一下好不好?是留去哪裡,看大家都好事嘛,對不對?通知當地的首長啊?是當地首長應該很歡迎啊,不會說拒絕嘛,對不對?是好啦好啦好啦"}]}},{"id":"154491","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154491","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bda049e21927cdc5531363f5917c5295f5e8e3eb0bf88d021c0d930ff7604c75255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:57:37 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11:06:34","影片長度":"00:08:57","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:57:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:06:34+08:00","duration":537,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":120,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時57分）謝謝主席。請主席邀請次長還有杜董事長。"],["主席：請次長還有董事長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：次長早安。我們知道現在的極端氣候，有時候在短時間內的強降雨真的就是會導致土石流的發生，對於整個交通路線造成很大的安全上的威脅，我們看到在6月3號，事實上那一天當下也沒有豪大雨，可是基隆台2線西部濱海公路，潮境公園路段的山壁就發生了大規模的崩塌事件，在這次的事件，部長今天沒有出席，當時部長接受媒體訪問時說，國道、公路局、臺鐵、高鐵在一個月內要完成C級邊坡的盤點跟巡檢，確保邊坡安全，我想這個大家都非常地關心。一個月的時間到了，想先請問一下，目前C級邊坡盤點巡檢的進度如何？是不是請次長先回應一下。"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，剛剛提到的C級邊坡的部分，確實現在氣候變遷很大，有關這個部分，鐵路也好，包括臺鐵、高鐵還有公路局都有針對邊坡部分進行巡檢，這個部分一個月內可以完成，沒有問題，現在大概都已經在後面的收尾階段了。"],["陳委員素月：對啊，因為今天已經7月3號了嘛，剛好一個月了，應該是很快的時間就可以有結果了？"],["伍次長勝園：是，可以。"],["陳委員素月：好。在軌道運輸的部分，一般被認為是快速又安全的，可是我們看到最近幾次的鐵道事故，真的也是讓人非常地擔憂，在6月21號發生土石邊坡滑落，土石流就是已經漫延到鐵軌上了，這次也有造成旅客受傷，就這個部分，我想先請教一下，我們的鐵軌應該是有異物入侵的感應系統，那這個部分有安裝嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：是，我跟委員報告，謝謝委員的指教，剛剛提到6月21號這個事件就是在畫面上所顯示的，這是我們的監視器所看到的沒有錯。"],["陳委員素月：可是沒有馬上停駛。"],["伍次長勝園：這部分它本身沒有告警。"],["陳委員素月：對，沒有告警，我就是想問這個。"],["伍次長勝園：我們現在針對這個部分，因為土石流這樣下來，整個河川大概都有淤積，所以我們在24號馬上也找了林保署等相關單位和一些外聘專家去看，我們第一個會先疏濬河床，第二個我們會在橋上那邊設置土石流的告警裝置，這個我們在一個月內、應該會在7月22號完成，這部分大概我們會做好，這是我們目前最優先來做的，接著後面我們就宜花東會對全線整個邊坡去進行巡檢。"],["陳委員素月：對，因為我們從這個曝光的畫面看到，事實上，在列車要通過的前19分鐘，這個畫面就已經顯示有土石流淹沒在鐵軌上，所以如果我們有那個感應異物入侵的預警系統，那應該就可以即時地知道有這樣的狀況發生，以避免列車撞上去。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員素月：在這個部分，剛剛次長提到會來裝設……"],["伍次長勝園：對，一個月內會裝起來。"],["陳委員素月：那應該就是從北到南，包括東部所有的鐵軌，針對比較可能有土石流的高危險地區都會來裝設，是不是？"],["伍次長勝園：是，會遵照委員的指教，我們會對全線去做，預計大概一個月內先把它盤點出來，後續再看我們該做哪些，不管是防污或告警系統，我們會做整個盤點。"],["陳委員素月：是，因為這個部分關係到行車的安全，大家都非常的關心。我們回到今天鐵路法第四十條跟第五十七條修正的討論，關於第四十條的部分，陳委員主要是針對在發生重大事故的時候要啟動旅客的接駁應變計畫，他是希望把這個明文規定在法令裡面，那我想請教一下，在這個條文裡面沒有明確的規範，那遇到像剛剛我們提到的0621這個事故或者之前的重大事故的時候，我們是怎麼去應變的？"],["伍次長勝園：我報告一下，其實在同一個條文的第四項就已經規定鐵路機構應該要有所謂的應變計畫，那應變計畫其實包括旅客的接駁，目前臺鐵所有的車站大概都有所謂的開口契約、相關的公路接駁契約，所以這部分到目前的執行大概都沒什麼問題。"],["陳委員素月：都沒有問題嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員素月：在0621這個事件發生的時候，我們從畫面上看到旅客後來就是走在鐵軌上，一直走到下一個車站，是不是？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["陳委員素月：那個狀況真的蠻危險的。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，他們不是走到下一個車站，是我們有一個4033次的列車開到旁邊，他們在走過橋以後上4033，然後再開到崇德跟新城。"],["陳委員素月：好，我想這個應該也是大家關心的部分，那我們也希望能夠做到更周全一點。接下來我來關心有關臺鐵員林火車站開發招商的問題，最近我們鄉親有跟我反映，就是我們員林高架化已經很久了，有一段時間了，那對於後站臺鐵公司的土地說要招商、要開發也講很久了，可是到目前為止還是雜草叢生，因為這個狀況，很多附近的住戶反映有很多爬蟲類躲在裡面，影響住戶的居家安全。所以在這個部分一方面就是我們招商的進度如何？另外一方面就是在還沒有開發之前，我們是不是可以定期把雜草清理一下，維護一下整潔？"],["杜董事長微：好，跟委員報告，這個地點是在員林站的旁邊，是一個狹長型的地域，對於剛剛委員的指教，我們會馬上對這些雜草等等做一個清理。至於招商的進度，最主要還是因為之前受到疫情影響的關係，在疫情過後，我們已經有積極在辦理，在第一次辦的時候就是流標了，來投標的廠商不踴躍，那我們現在正在檢討。"],["陳委員素月：是，希望我們能夠就是更積極，檢討一下到底是我們的誘因不夠還是什麼樣的原因導致投標的意願很低。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["陳委員素月：最後一個問題，就是要關心一下有關班次改點的問題，我們在6月26號有大改點，我有對了一下班次，彰化站、員林站在改點前跟改點後其實差異不大，我們員林這邊南彰化的鄉親也一再的反映，就是之前有兩班普悠瑪號，在早上有一班278，下午是282，他們希望能夠從員林發車，我們鄉親反映了很多次，可是我們在這次的改點裡面也沒有納入考量，是不是請杜董事長？"],["杜董事長微：在改點之前，我們沒有把278這兩班列車納入，我想我們後續再來研議一下，看看是不是可以調整它的始發站，因為我們的路線容量是蠻緊的。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝杜董事長，對於地方鄉親的意見，也希望你們能夠重視，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員國成代）：好，謝謝陳素月委員。現在請傅崐萁總召發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 一) 委員陳俊宇等24 人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.46409375,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.277843750000002,"end":14.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.05721875,"end":22.137218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.33971875,"end":34.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.14784375,"end":53.001593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.17034375,"end":68.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.72909375,"end":83.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.62971875000001,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.66346875,"end":104.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.04409375,"end":113.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.74409375,"end":109.31346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.54971875000001,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.89096875000001,"end":114.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.94971875,"end":115.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.67534375000001,"end":134.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.01409375,"end":148.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.23971875,"end":154.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.82534375,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.03034375000001,"end":166.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.07659375,"end":168.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.55284375000002,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.96596875,"end":206.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.30346875,"end":173.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.18846875000003,"end":241.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.64034375000003,"end":232.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.65221875,"end":238.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.03596875000002,"end":238.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.22159375,"end":238.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.37721875000003,"end":247.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.97971875000002,"end":259.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.38284375,"end":273.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.31721875,"end":280.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.84784375000004,"end":303.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.15221875000003,"end":320.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.17909375,"end":326.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.07284375,"end":327.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.83221875000004,"end":327.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.60846875000004,"end":336.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.80534375,"end":336.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.82221875000005,"end":337.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.48034375000003,"end":339.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.74159375000005,"end":343.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.65659375,"end":348.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.91346875000005,"end":347.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.63471875000005,"end":354.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.49909375000004,"end":352.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.74346875000003,"end":370.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.51721875000004,"end":400.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.50409375000004,"end":402.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.85409375,"end":406.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.76909375,"end":417.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.77159375,"end":437.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.71159375,"end":424.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.77784375000005,"end":432.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.85284375000003,"end":447.64034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.99471875,"end":453.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.54659375000006,"end":477.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.60096875000005,"end":457.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.33409375,"end":463.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.85721875,"end":464.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.17159375000006,"end":486.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.82409375000003,"end":508.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.77846875000006,"end":510.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.80346875000004,"end":527.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.4253437500001,"end":532.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.92221875,"end":534.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.7153437500001,"end":537.5503437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.8,"end":10.52,"text":"市長、董事長委員好"},{"start":22.592,"end":38.977,"text":"市長早安我們知道現在的極端氣候有時候在短時間內的強降雨真的就是會導致這個土石流的一個發生那對於整個交通這個路線就是造成很大的一個安全上的一個威脅"},{"start":40.077,"end":41.278,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答第二案僅進行詢答第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":68.829,"end":69.931,"text":"三、盤點與巡檢確保邊坡安全。"},{"start":83.783,"end":104.484,"text":"市委跟委員報告齁,剛剛講這個西幾邊坡的部分齁,確實現在目前氣候變遷很大齁,那這部分我們的鐵路也好,包括台鐵高鐵還有公務局齁,這部分大概都針對邊坡部分都進行來巡檢。這個1個月內可以完成就沒問題,現在大概都已經在收尾,後面的收尾的階段。"},{"start":105.594,"end":134.515,"text":"對阿因為今天已經7月3號了嘛對阿剛好一個月了是是那應該是很快的時間就可以有結果了對是是可以好那在這個交通運輸上阿這個軌道運輸一般是被認為是快速又安全的啦可是我們看到最近幾次這個就是鐵道的事故阿真的也是讓人家非常的擔憂那在這個6月21號發生的土石邊坡滑落"},{"start":135.115,"end":135.496,"text":"（一（一（一"},{"start":154.895,"end":177.376,"text":"是,我跟委員報告齁,謝謝委員的指教齁。這邊剛剛提到6月21這個部分,就是這個上面畫面所顯示的齁,這是我們的監視器所看到的,沒有錯齁。但是他這部分他沒有告警,他本身沒有告警,對,他本身沒有告警。所以我們現在針對這部分我們大概,因為主要他大概土地有下來。"},{"start":177.996,"end":178.636,"text":"第二案僅進行詢答第二案僅進行詢答"},{"start":207.47,"end":225.037,"text":"對因為就這個曝光的畫面我們看到就是說事實上在列車要通過前19分鐘這個畫面就已經有顯示有這個土石流已經淹沒在鐵軌上所以如果說我們有那個感應的那個預警系統就是義務入侵的系統的話那應該就是可以及時的"},{"start":225.657,"end":246.937,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":247.037,"end":258.61,"text":"是,會議遵照委員的指教,我們會計前線再去做,那一期大概一個月內先把它判點出來,後續該我們開始做哪些,不管是防護也好、告警系統,我想這個我們會做一個整個判點。"},{"start":259.411,"end":259.891,"text":"第二案僅進行詢答"},{"start":281.253,"end":302.872,"text":"議員陳俊宇主要是針對在重大事故的時候要啟動旅客的接駁應變計畫。他是希望把這個明文規定在法令裡面。那我想請教一下就是說在這個條文裡面沒有明確的規範在遇到像剛剛我們提到的這個0621的這個事故或者之前的重大事故的時候我們是怎麼去應變的?"},{"start":304.558,"end":325.6,"text":"我報告一下其實在同一個條文它第四項就已經包括說鐵路機構應該要這個所謂的應變計畫那應變計畫其實包括那個旅客接駁現在目前台鐵它所有的車站大概都有所謂的它的開口企業的相關的公路接駁的這個樣的企業所以應該這部分到目前來執行大概都沒什麼問題"},{"start":326.161,"end":354.328,"text":"都沒有問題喔那這個0621這個事件發生的時候我們從畫面上看到旅客他後來就是走在鐵軌上走到下一個車站是不是是那那個狀況蠻危險的跟委員報告他不是走到下一個車站是我們有一個4033次的列車開到他旁邊他們走過橋以後上4033然後再開到崇德跟新城"},{"start":355.273,"end":356.074,"text":"檸檬火車站開發招商問題"},{"start":371.442,"end":401.425,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":401.425,"end":417.551,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":418.59,"end":437.018,"text":"委員報告這個地點是在園林站的旁邊是個狹長型的地域剛剛委員的指教我們會馬上做一個清理雜草等等的會做一個清理至於招商的進度主要"},{"start":437.858,"end":453.541,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":453.981,"end":465.108,"text":"希望我們能夠更積極檢討一下到底我們誘因不夠還是什麼樣的原因導致投標的意願低最後一個問題關心一下有關班次改點的問題我們在6月26號有大改點"},{"start":474.594,"end":492.087,"text":"那我也對了一下這個班次在彰化站跟元寧站就是改點前跟改點後其實差異不大那我們元寧這邊南彰化的鄉親也一再的反映就是說希望就是之前就是有兩班這個普悠瑪號就是早上有一班278跟下午的282希望能夠從元寧發車"},{"start":500.993,"end":526.583,"text":"這個我們鄉親反映了很多次所以這個部分我們在這次的改點裡面也沒有納入考量是不是請杜董事長問一下這個在改點之前我們沒有把278這兩列車納入我想我們後續再來研議一下看看是不是可以調整它的始發站因為我們的路線容量是蠻緊的"},{"start":528.044,"end":532.467,"text":"謝謝都董事長,就是說地方的鄉親的意見也希望你們能夠重視,謝謝。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝我們陳樹葉委員。"}]}},{"id":"154478","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154478","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd785a39911d4c3bb81363f5917c5295f5d15f5ccb8d26769b621747a0e7dfbc9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"10:48:20 - 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﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":57.998,"end":58.138,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答 »:"},{"start":77.327,"end":78.728,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具〈鐵路法第五十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":100.087,"end":115.999,"text":"三、在鐵路法上授權讓鐵路公司去訂定一個大家認為安全可行的方法讓在地的民眾出戶他們回家的時候是不用回法的當民眾他們需要救護車、消防車輛來救援的時候"},{"start":119.522,"end":140.715,"text":"他們不用等待這些車輛繞行整個山才能夠大達救援我們的民眾那我希望在今天的這個當然這是一個答詢那我希望說後續我們能夠體諒我們偏鄉民眾早期這些鐵道建置之後可能沒有考慮到的一些問題我們現在把它解決以上謝謝好謝謝廖先生委員請武次長報告"},{"start":152.36,"end":152.382,"text":"三﹐"}]}},{"id":"154477","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154477","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdf5d183c9f7099b891363f5917c5295f5d15f5ccb8d26769b8466b1d63248431c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"10:45:08 - 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謝謝你詢問 好吧"},{"start":2365.216,"end":2389.922,"text":"我想中州委首先你要尊重主席的職權主席也沒有請你上台這裡不是菜市場,這裡是個會議場所大家這個禮貌尤其你是司法法院司法法制委員會的州委我們交通委員會對你非常的尊重但是你要徵得主席的同意才上台發言好不好,謝謝好,請莊瑞雄委員發言兩分鐘時間"},{"start":2395.161,"end":2413.137,"text":"謝謝召委還有在場我們列席的委員確實剛剛鍾嘉賓召委所提出來的問題主席有必要來先做一個會議前召開的一個說明也就是說按照我們立法院這個整個組織法裡面的一個規定第13條的一個規定"},{"start":2415.239,"end":2415.279,"text":"願會交付"},{"start":2431.579,"end":2435.441,"text":"非由召集委員報請院會來決定召開這個聯席其實各委員會裡面倒也不能私自來召開這樣的一個聯席會所以主席有必要就這個程序的部分先來做說明我們在整個國會整個職權行使法裡面在審議的過程裡面大家都特別去強調對整個行政部門的一個監督這個民主進步黨對這個沒有意見但是也不要忘記"},{"start":2460.73,"end":2473.502,"text":"我們這次所通過的第46條之二如果案件在偵查當中那這個部分是涉及到整個權力分立的問題也請主席是不是也先闡明一下這個案子裡面"},{"start":2475.444,"end":2496.152,"text":"如果是針對實質的話有沒有這個案子有沒有設在這個法院在這個偵辦當中這個我想可能也必須要主席先來做說明尤其是第一點召開聯席我們不是英英我們司法法制我們今天也在開很有禮貌的來請教我們的陳學生召委謝謝謝謝莊委員我想現在是不是按照程序發言人有登記"},{"start":2505.879,"end":2510.041,"text":"趙偉,各位同仁大家好首先要請教趙偉經署密,依據這個"},{"start":2532.403,"end":2561.097,"text":"各委員會的組織法第13條要召開這相關的聯席會議第一必須要由院會決定第二必須由召委請院會來決定才能召開跟其他委員會相關的聯席會議第二我要請教我們有沒有院會交付第二個是有沒有相關的議事錄院會的議事錄要與院會的議事錄來作為一個最主要的準則"},{"start":2562.216,"end":2580.299,"text":"第二是有關於相關實質的問題．就是立法院職權行使法第46條之後．在裁判確定前相關的訴訟案件．他的審理或是偵查．他有關的處置或是卷證．"},{"start":2581.48,"end":2607.933,"text":"必須不能由立法院來行使調查權這也都是立法院新修訂的這個職權行使法第46條之後就有明文規定的第三他明顯的違反了一事不二議的原則今天交通委員會就有一個調閱小組然後今天又號稱要成立一個交通跟司法法制的這樣的一個"},{"start":2609.382,"end":2616.676,"text":"調查小組這違反了一事不二議的原則今天之前甲成立了一個調查小組"},{"start":2619.505,"end":2643.598,"text":"今天甲跟乙又要成立一個調查小組那明天是不是甲乙丙委員會又要成立一個調查小組這破壞了一次博弈以及意識穩定及相關秩序的原則這都是簡單的ABC請昭偉跟竹密來說明一下謝謝好 謝謝李昆哲昭偉的發言下一位請謝謝"},{"start":2647.762,"end":2672.837,"text":"我們稍微非常彬彬有禮下一位請林俊憲委員發言謝謝主席我們各位同仁今天我們突然間改變議程原本並沒有今天早上第一個議程就是所謂的交通司法聯席那看起來是要成立一個鏡電視的調查小組"},{"start":2675.697,"end":2699.605,"text":"如果要成立調查小組啦現在藍白多數啊這個大家啊竟然已經多數了那也通過了那個擴權法案在成立所謂的調查小組更應該要遵照程序來啦剛剛我們幾位委員提的啦我不知道陳傑昇召委吼我們今天開這個聯席會議啊為什麼要這麼突然間"},{"start":2705.307,"end":2717.562,"text":"有得到院會交付下來．或者是由召委是否有做任何的程序報請院會因為院會決定交付聯席會"},{"start":2720.578,"end":2748.728,"text":"不是院會加入聯席審查的．或者不是由召集委員報請院會決定召開聯席會議的委員會不得單獨禁制召開聯席會議這個在我們立法院的各委員會組織法第13條寫得很清楚藍白要成立調查小組來啊你也照程序來吧你為什麼急著今天一定就要來搞這個聯席會議呢"},{"start":2751.616,"end":2762.466,"text":"那聯席會議．立法院寫的．我們委員會的各委員會組織法都寫得很清楚啦那以後．隨便一個召委想到他就自己可以來召開聯席會議嗎所以這一點其實我們在開會以前啦．會議主席啊．就把我們都叫在一起的．陳雪生召委．應該要先向在場的同仁來說明"},{"start":2778.105,"end":2782.639,"text":"為什麼你今天召開聯席會議,你的根據是什麼?有院會加入下來嗎?"},{"start":2784.577,"end":2805.09,"text":"委員會有通過我們今天可以來召開這樣的聯席會議嗎?如果沒有的話那你開下去聯席會議的不符程序的不應該在這裡召開的那今天的結論當然就有非法的啦就不符規定的啊那我們開要做什麼?好不好?市長你要通過可以啊 還召程序來啊"},{"start":2811.344,"end":2825.835,"text":"你多數你還怕通過不了?對不對?表決你都會贏啊?有利啊!那你不照規矩來?這樣我對你有尊重嗎?好,尊重尊重好嗎?下一位請陳書宇委員歡迎時間兩分鐘氣氛好一點齁,不要太嚴肅好不好?"},{"start":2841.121,"end":2868.829,"text":"主席還有各位委員今天我們交通跟司法、法制召開這個聯席會議本席也覺得非常的納悶我們中華民國是一個法制的國家一切都是依法行政所有的公務機關就是依法行政尤其是我們立法院有立法院的職權行使法我們立法委員更應該要以身作則才對啊所以要請教一下主席還有我們的議事人員"},{"start":2871.03,"end":2878.447,"text":"今天就這個立法院的職權行使法明明就有規定聯席會議就是要院會來交付"},{"start":2879.315,"end":2879.675,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝陳樹越委員"},{"start":2909.097,"end":2926.454,"text":"許智傑委員發言面帶笑容好不好不要罵這個啊謝謝主席,其實我是面帶笑容心理沉痛"},{"start":2928.649,"end":2956.568,"text":"我想這個會議剛才我們幾位委員都提過這很清楚這個就是一個不合程序不合法的會議那為什麼藍白要這麼著急的來訂這個這個時候要來通過這個會那我在想剛剛林俊憲委員也提過你們現在都已經多數了一介紹的程序來有那麼困難嗎"},{"start":2958.522,"end":2985.611,"text":"所以我是很具體的建議我們的陳雪生召委這一次的聯席會議因為不合程序不合法所以趕快就直接裁決停止吧謝謝好 謝謝謝謝自己委員下一位請徐委員徐副各位"},{"start":2995.138,"end":3023.173,"text":"主席、各位委員我想我們剛剛前面有幾位委員大家提到的自從這個我本席2月1號到立法院我想這個發生這些這個荒謬的事情也不是第一件甚至現在今天又增加了一件這個可能這個會讓全國這個引起這個很大的爭議的一個事件我想今天我們也是突然被通知說跟司法委員會這個聯席會剛剛幾位委員提到的"},{"start":3023.733,"end":3045.005,"text":"不只是破壞了這個各委員會組織法第13條的一個事項那根據我們立法院職權行使法第46條之二的部分我想也是公然的違反相關的一個規定所以請我們偉大的主席能夠做一個明確的一個指示不要讓我們交通委員會變成一個大笑話以上謝謝許副委員發言"},{"start":3054.298,"end":3076.862,"text":"不要說啦,沒時間啦,要說好,下一位請鍾嘉斌委員發言過來這誰?這誰?張瑞雄他寫這個我看不懂好,下一位請林志明委員發言誰看得懂?"},{"start":3080.542,"end":3105.211,"text":"各位委員好 大家好 召委也好我想今天召委召開今天的調查小組的成立這樣的一個會議我想今天是依照立法院職權行使法我們剛通過熱騰騰的立法院職權行使法來成立調查小組我想這是依照現行法律的一個規定"},{"start":3105.891,"end":3126.553,"text":"我們剛才聽到鍾嘉斌委員講說現在要釋憲了你幹嘛還要去召開這樣子一個調查小組我想這個說法根本不成立這是我們完全依照這個現在有效施行的法律來這個成立調查小組那我想民進黨不用害怕第二點我想我們今天這個"},{"start":3128.935,"end":3131.637,"text":"立法院委員會組織法第13條規範各委員會所依事項"},{"start":3146.607,"end":3176.087,"text":"有與其他委員會相關連責,除由院會決定交付聯席審查外,則由召集委員報警院會決定與其他委員會開聯席會議。目前只有法案或預算案經院會交付委員會後,召委認為需與其他委員會聯席時,才會依照上述程序進行改交由本會或與其他委員會聯席。而我們這次的職權行使法"},{"start":3178.629,"end":3192.422,"text":"並不是審查所謂的預算或法案,並沒有法條適用。修法前的調閱小組也沒有聯席委員會的案例,也沒有報請院會決定的前例。"},{"start":3196.446,"end":3208.419,"text":"本次修正通過的《立法院職權行使法》有關於設調查專案小組,也沒有疑似不在意的規定。因為《立法院職權行使法》第45條經委員會決議設調查專案小組與修正前或經委員會決議設"},{"start":3214.346,"end":3216.769,"text":"好,謝謝林志明委員的發言,下一位請何欣辰委員發言"},{"start":3243.381,"end":3260.313,"text":"謝謝偉大的主席我覺得我們立法委員我相信大家都非常有智慧那對於條文應該是完整的來看清楚剛剛大家在講462條的時候都在講第一段而已那第二段條文的第二段講得很清楚"},{"start":3264.397,"end":3282.166,"text":"裁判確定前之訴訟案件,就其偵查或審判所為之處置及其卷證,立法院不得行使調查權。尚未確定之訴願事件或其他依法應獨立行使的也是一樣。所以我覺得是6-2條大家要看清楚"},{"start":3288.029,"end":3311.929,"text":"這個要完整的來說清楚那本於這個權力分立本來在我們本委員會確實有成立這個調查小組那是在修法修這個立法委員職權行使法之前就已經成立的那我們尊重本委員會的決定那但是一切都還是要依法來進行以上"},{"start":3318.854,"end":3330.726,"text":"謝謝何靜淳委員的發言吳宗憲委員發言時間兩分鐘謝謝主席"},{"start":3338.169,"end":3367.231,"text":"這部分可能要麻煩其他的立委學長們條文的部分可能要看清楚一下因為不是說要去調閱偵查中的卷宗你不能把它狹隘只是侷限在說你今天調閱的資料是跟偵查卷宗有關本來就不會去調閱因為我們這次法律的修正就不包括那個部分所以不要再刻意帶風向說我們要去調偵查中的卷宗違反權利分立根本沒有那個事情"},{"start":3369.079,"end":3390.352,"text":"相關的資料在行政機關或者是民間企業都會有那我們調閱依法我們就不能調閱偵查中的捐贈資料所以從頭到尾這個都不是個議題所以千萬不要故意把風向帶到那邊說我們要侵害檢察官的那個職權嘛好不好好謝謝各位好謝謝吳中興委員我向各位委員報告"},{"start":3397.472,"end":3417.874,"text":"大家都說偉大的召委,我沒那麼偉大,我突然覺得有那麼偉大嗎?今天這個會,因為交通委員會歷來我們都很協調很溫和的,當然今天司法法制在樓上鬧得不可開交,我希望我們這邊很平和的順利的把工作完成"},{"start":3421.737,"end":3438.318,"text":"其實調查小組跟調閱小組,我們調閱小組大概在第二階段今天第二次的交通委員會,我們會做一個Ending那現在因為什麼?我們感覺到調閱小組功能不彰功能不彰?"},{"start":3439.773,"end":3465.219,"text":"根本都貼黑條都貼滿了嘛,那怎麼調?那調一個小組沒辦法,等一下國城委員也會上台抒發他的感言。那麼我覺得這個有調查小組成立的必要啦,我們需要因為法律的背景啊,非常非常的重要啦,所以成立這個小組。剛才"},{"start":3469.608,"end":3493.762,"text":"剛才哪一位委員?林思明委員大部分已經回答了大部分各位委員所針對的問題,我想我還是匯總一下好了。我跟各位委員報告,目前職權行使法並沒有不得已聯席會處理的規定,沒有這個規定。這一次提案不是法律案,也不是預算案。"},{"start":3495.81,"end":3511.561,"text":"立法院各委員會組織法第13條,各委員會所議事項,由與其他委員會相關聯者,除由院會決定交付委員會聯席審查者外,得由召集委員報請來開會。"},{"start":3519.386,"end":3544.664,"text":"目前僅有法案或預算案才交付,所以它這個不是所以修法前的調閱小組沒有聯席委員會的案例也沒有報請院會決定的前例我們之前成立的調閱小組也沒有這個前例第三點就是本次修正通過的立法院執行行使法第45條"},{"start":3546.448,"end":3569.082,"text":"或經委員會決議,得調閱小組、調查專案小組或是修正前或經委員會決議,得調閱專案小組請調查跟調閱只是這樣差別而已,剛才已經講過了所以目前職權行使法沒有不得聯席會議處理的規定"},{"start":3571.335,"end":3594.151,"text":"至於委員提到說調查、調閱一事不二議,這個問題我也回答了。另外吳宗憲委員也說明,在偵查中的文件跟資料不得調查、調閱。這個我們謹守法律的規定的分際。好不好?謝謝。以上做綜合的一個回答。那俊憲委員有意見嗎?有發言?有沒有?"},{"start":3598.059,"end":3618.59,"text":"主席對你剛才的說明有意見立法院各委員會的組織法的第13條我是覺得你自己扣到結事了並沒有說一定要預算案或者是法案才要報選院會交付下來召開聯席會議"},{"start":3622.202,"end":3629.631,"text":"在過去幾屆的立委都有類似的案件"},{"start":3631.653,"end":3658.844,"text":"基本上你要召開聯席會議的程序你就報請院會你自己在這裡解釋什麼成立調查小組不必請院會來交付這是你自己的解釋啦我感覺你自己把它擴大解釋了他也沒有說一定要限定什麼預算案啦什麼法案才需要報請院會但今天啦今天就是外交跟經濟聯席"},{"start":3662.231,"end":3688.712,"text":"今天外交跟經濟委員會也是聯席會議他們審的就是一個協定也就是說基本上你就是要尊重尊重其他的委員會那你要尊重院會因為院會有交付那你在排聯席會議的時候你才可以跟其他跟我們聯席的召委他就不必排在議程上他就是要安排他就知道有聯席他時間可以調整嘛"},{"start":3689.537,"end":3718.598,"text":"像今天司法委員會你臨時跟他擦一個聯席會那司法委員會的遭遇剛原來這個發言啊你會造成他排案的一個困擾所以按照我們職權行使法第13條來這個本來的精神就是聯席會議是要經過院會就是我們大會來同意的啦你也自己去解說啦那以後的遭遇權力都這麼大那隨隨便便都要來決定"},{"start":3721.153,"end":3740.701,"text":"徐志杰委員徐志杰,大家好我呼應一下郡縣委員剛提到的,你把那個條文看清楚就是非院會交付聯席審查"},{"start":3741.826,"end":3764.156,"text":"或由召集委員報請院會決定召開聯席會議你今天召委要聯席你至少要跟那個院會報備那你今天院會也要通知比如說除了我們交通委員會之外院會也要通知司法委員會那這樣子的聯席會議才合乎這個13條各委員會組織法的規定"},{"start":3768.26,"end":3786.806,"text":"今天變成說我們交通委員會的召委就自己決定然後就找司法的來我覺得這個部分在法上是不合的所以今天這個會議我是覺得沒好程序就不要開了"},{"start":3789.611,"end":3807.788,"text":"其實我在覺得以前王金平院長的時代,他們說我們民進黨比較少人,沒有錯但是很多程序,我們就是一項一項都照不來,譬如說輸贏一回輸,譬如說輸也沒關係但是你就是程序一定要合法,道理一定要給大家來說明、來討論"},{"start":3810.427,"end":3835.273,"text":"我覺得這一切真的是我覺得為什麼說我面帶微笑、內心沉痛就是這樣現在都一定要做得趕快、做得不合程序就要一直來推這個法所以我是真的建議那個召委這一次的會議今天就宣布停止不要再開了啦聯席的會議好 謝謝知己委員還沒有發言我一定回答好 國城委員好好 到台上發言也可以"},{"start":3845.115,"end":3858.372,"text":"謝主席我雖然是差交啊但是在交通委員會我已經參加過三次的聯席會議可是我這查一查"},{"start":3859.687,"end":3877.312,"text":"他們也沒有宴會交付啊就是召集人、互相的這些尊重但是聯席會議其目的其目的只是大家集思廣益只要超過半數當然就可以去做"},{"start":3878.272,"end":3898.4,"text":"至於牽涉到法令所規定13條的這些有關規定當然最後委員會聯席會決定以後他去報因為這個也是過去傳統是這樣做這第一個第二個我們同仁也一直在講"},{"start":3899.88,"end":3928.699,"text":"現在在釋憲各位我不是法律的但是最起碼的話總統公布以後隔天就生效的東西那現在釋憲是歸釋憲但是我為什麼不能去做所以這些啊我在想我們各位同仁但是法條如何去調我贊成大家及時廣益去推但是我還是希望今天的會議是有效的"},{"start":3931.893,"end":3958.33,"text":"好 謝謝李崑禎委員好 謝謝 謝謝昭偉簡短好不好好 很簡短13條我再解釋給你聽好 那第一個這林國成、昭偉召開相關的聯席會議不是為了集思廣益如果要集思廣益把8個委員會啊大家來組成一個天龍八部的調查小組啊這樣更能集思廣益"},{"start":3960.238,"end":3987.292,"text":"這個聯席會議的法源基礎是什麼是程序委員會的組織規程第5條第二項就是要有相同性質的這樣的一個議案然後才召開相關的聯席會議這是法源的根據然後相關的程序就是必須遵照各委員會組織法第13條必須要有兩大要件第一個就是院會交付"},{"start":3987.992,"end":4014.622,"text":"第二就是召委請院會來交付這個都要有院會的意思路來作為一個依據啦都是要院會交付啊但是這個為什麼大家都聽不懂呢以上之前你還要講啊,又講第13條嗎我再補充一下因為剛剛林國進委員也提到說那個召委互相尊重啊司法委員的召委有受到我們的尊重嗎"},{"start":4017.506,"end":4021.467,"text":"主席委員我對你多客氣啊,你看看我跟你講啊,剛才我們國政委員上台啊,他都快哭了"},{"start":4043.049,"end":4066.906,"text":"你看臉色都難看喉嚨都喊啞啦你知道嗎喉嚨喊啞啦不是集思廣益是一籌莫展四個字根本看不到東西也調閱不到東西NCC這個單位有那麼困難嗎好啦,發言停止現在輪到我了第13條我唸給各位聽"},{"start":4069.144,"end":4092.471,"text":"各委員會所異議事項,由與其他委員會相關連責除由願會決定交付聯席審查者外得由召集委員報請願會決定之與其他相關委員會開聯席會議"},{"start":4096.98,"end":4124.73,"text":"那前面的調閱小組啊前面調閱小組也沒有啊跟這個一樣啦準時規定辦理嘛是不是那這個調查小組為什麼又有不同呢所以喔基於法無禁止就是可以嘛法令沒有禁止啊法無禁止就是可以啊法無授權叫禁止對不對所以我們大家"},{"start":4126.247,"end":4143.253,"text":"國民黨團、民進黨團、民眾黨團、公說公有理,都有講他的道理。蘇委員你有意見?我想請問一下主席,你剛有唸了第13條,那後半段得由召集委員報請院會決定,那請問我們有報請院會決定嗎?沒有,我跟你講"},{"start":4153.449,"end":4177.385,"text":"這裡面報請院會決定是什麼案?是法律案?是預算案?是預算案?這裡面沒有寫,這裡面...我們現在...何委員你坐下來,不要動怒齁不要動怒齁因為前面的調閱小組"},{"start":4179.116,"end":4196.981,"text":"也是這樣啊,就差一個字,調查而已嘛,是不是?我們只是聯席希望什麼?調閱小組是我們交通委員會內自己成立的你當然不必開聯席會議啊好啦,各位我想都發言完畢了,我也解釋給你們聽了你扯到調閱小組那你就扯清楚啊"},{"start":4198.418,"end":4220.895,"text":"你調閱小組是我們交通委員會內設立的調閱小組那你當然沒有開放機會因為法無明文規定說不行嘛是不是你法律上所規定只是針對法律的部分跟預算案的部分嘛沒有嘛沒有就是可以啊沒有就是可以嘛議事人員說明啊議事人員說明什麼我說明還不夠還要議事人員說明"},{"start":4225.151,"end":4230.006,"text":"來來來那繼續我們請主命令說明一下不要啦不要啦主命令不要說明"},{"start":4232.421,"end":4238.824,"text":"提案說明好了啦再扯下去扯到民國哪一年啦因為他那個是得嘛如果你改成因的話才是剛剛各位說的那個做法"},{"start":4260.655,"end":4287.377,"text":"阿這邊是德欸我意思是說如果我們把德改成因那個字的話就是剛剛各位的說法阿德就德與不德囉對啊就是說你第13條的法律規定是德那我們如果說今天這個德是因這個字的話那就是剛剛各位學長們所說的那個模式嘛那因為他的條文規定是德所以大家不能把它解釋成因阿就是這個法條上面解釋是不對的阿"},{"start":4288.037,"end":4312.319,"text":"最近你們功能案件都沒有涉及到,得與不得啊主席,他那個得是外,外是裡面,其他的外面的都沒有了他得與不得啊他外面的得是只有這一個得,後面的條件是要具備的,而不是不解釋得後面的東西啊你那個因是,所以這個得是如果有的話,後面這些還是要報請院會決定謝謝"},{"start":4314.946,"end":4342.661,"text":"我想大家意見都充分討論了嘛是不是意思都很明白了嘛藍的也好,綠的也好,民眾也好,大家意思都已經完全的表達了我們都可以尊重了齁我非常感謝啦,你們大家都給我面子喔這樣的氣氛啊,人家說真的在其他委員會也不容易出現啦齁什麼東西啊我最近眼睛不太好啊,你們拿近一點那個來"},{"start":4352.355,"end":4372.973,"text":"好,我們首先討論成立鏡電視專案小組的事宜目前由魯明哲委員等8人提案請魯明哲委員說明提案要職魯明哲委員明哲說明提案要職"},{"start":4375.919,"end":4395.114,"text":"好 謝謝主席因為剛剛也經過很多程序發言人討論坦白講我現在也是面帶微笑心裡也是很苦因為進去看了我們調閱小組現在提供的一些資訊甚至是有非常多五本裡面有三本是已經公開的資料其中我們交通委員會"},{"start":4396.255,"end":4416.2,"text":"給我們的報告他也列為一本所以實在是新的我們這個職權行使法修法現在公告之後所以我們藉這個機會提出由交通委員會跟跟我們司法委員會聯席的鏡電視深色及後續爭議調查小組的這個提案"},{"start":4417.18,"end":4441.023,"text":"主要是有介於媒體不斷的報導其實某種程度也是希望幫政府的高層來釐清這個整個一個到底移民的過程包括府院高層不斷的有新聞的傳聞是不是有施壓NCC然後是不是在審議的過程中為什麼兩年到了按照審議應該有個結果準還是薄結果他"},{"start":4442.044,"end":4442.304,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4458.556,"end":4478.301,"text":"在執行鏡電視深色審查幻照及營運階段違反付款的等等事項決策過程中﹐沿著遭受到政府不當的介入﹐依據立法院職權行使法第8章調查權的行使﹐在法律授權建請作成決議﹐"},{"start":4480.721,"end":4504.47,"text":"針對於NCC國家通訊傳播委員會近年審查鏡電視深射、審照及換照過程外力介入的情況,附加條款有無涉及不法,原成立鏡電視深射及後續爭議調查專案小組,要求有關機關就特定一案涉及事項,提供相關"},{"start":4505.47,"end":4507.512,"text":"好,好,謝謝魯明哲委員的發言好,現在請議事委員宣讀"},{"start":4529.035,"end":4550.564,"text":"為釐清國家通訊傳播委員會之行,鏡電視、新聞台、深社、省照、換照及營運等相關監理四項決策過程有無遭受政府,不但介入原成立鏡電視、深社及後續爭議調查專案小組,要求有關機關就特定議案涉及四項提供相關"},{"start":4551.799,"end":4575.413,"text":"調查資料落實國會監督以保障新聞台的深設及經營不受政府的不當介入,還給媒體第四選獨立運作的空間。提案委員、盧明哲等宣布完畢。好,針對本案請問各位委員有沒有意見?沒有意見我們照案通過。好,請國昌兄發言。"},{"start":4578.23,"end":4604.655,"text":"不好意思我剛才先請教一下我們現在在討論的是不是那個林委員跟林委員他們所共同提案的暗油對啊是嗎對啊對啊那我是不是可以建議第一個事情是說成立這樣的一個調查專案小組我個人是支持的那但是我會建議我們在暗油的部分在第二段的1、2、3、4、5第5行"},{"start":4606.855,"end":4619.811,"text":"後面有一個附加條件我建議是不是把附加條件著作文字修正把它修正成許可處分之付款"},{"start":4622.133,"end":4643.512,"text":"因為付款的這個字比較是法律上面的專業用語這樣我們指涉的對象會比較清楚一點所以我是不是可以建請盧委員跟其他提案的委員可以同意做這個人質的修正也就是把附加條件這四個字把它改成為許可處分之付款好 第二段嘛 第二段12345"},{"start":4646.209,"end":4663.494,"text":"後面不是有附加條件四個字嗎?改為許可處分之付款各位同意嗎?同意有沒有意見?沒有好沒有意見我們去修正通過好謝謝我們國常委員接下來討論鏡電視調查專案小組運作要點草案好目前是"},{"start":4674.389,"end":4681.137,"text":"運作要點草案目前有魯明哲等8人的版本請魯明哲委員說明一下"},{"start":4688.809,"end":4714.061,"text":"針對於我們交通委員會跟司法及法制委員會聯席成立的我們調查小組當然我們名稱是不是就定義成鏡電視、深社及後續弊案少一個爭議弊案、爭議調查小組運作要點草案其中有1234567總共"},{"start":4717.705,"end":4719.586,"text":"請我們這個聯席小組大家來討論,訂定內容是否恰當。以上。"},{"start":4744.16,"end":4747.383,"text":"訓讀．立法院交通委員會、司法及法制委員會聯席會．鏡電視深設及後續"},{"start":4754.495,"end":4771.539,"text":"爭議、調查專案小組運作要點草案。第一點,立法院交通委員會、司法及法制委員會依《立法院職權行使法》第8章調查權之行事,及立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會、司法及法制委員會第一次聯席會議決議,成立鏡電視深設及後續議案爭議。"},{"start":4776.601,"end":4781.485,"text":"以調查專案小組,以下簡稱本小組。2."},{"start":4781.485,"end":4787.09,"text":"本小組運作除有關法令令或規定外,依本要點行之。3."},{"start":4787.09,"end":4792.835,"text":"本小組由交通委員、司法及法制委員會全體委員組成之。4."},{"start":4792.835,"end":4796.218,"text":"本小組自召集人亦人由參加本小組成員複選。"},{"start":4797.359,"end":4819.274,"text":"負責處理小組事務並代表本小組對外發言。5.本小組會議需有委員身份之一出席,方得開會。其決議已出席委員過半數,同意行之,但在場出席委員不足三人者,不得一決必要時得以命令會議方式行之。6.本小組會議有關聯署或附屬人數準用本。"},{"start":4820.114,"end":4841.376,"text":"本院各委員會會議之規定第七點本小組運作期間自民國113年7月3日至113年12月31日根據本小組決議得延長之資料查閱時間為每週一至週五上午9時至下午5時。第八點本小組成員行使調查職權時應親自為之"},{"start":4843.479,"end":4861.057,"text":"並署名與查閱登記部查閱人員赴保密義務對機密文件不得抄錄、攝影、影印、送讀錄、引貨為其他複製行為,亦不得將文件攜離查閱場所或洩漏資,前項機密文件如被調查機關拒絕提供時,"},{"start":4863.62,"end":4884.517,"text":"該機關應以書面、4名機密之種類及原因並於3個工作天內送交本小組存查。第9點本小組對外新聞得以聯席會名義為之。本小組成員未經決議不得以本小組名義對外發言。第10點本小組調查文件之對象為國家通訊、傳播委員會及相關部會。"},{"start":4885.558,"end":4911.509,"text":"但經本小組決議亦得增加調查對象本小組已調查自文件應經三人以上提案並經本小組決議通過調取之調查文件以復本為原則。第11點本小組會議召開時得邀請被調查文件自機關首長率同有關人員列席說明受邀請者非有正當理由不得拒絕出席及說明。第12點本小組應"},{"start":4913.761,"end":4940.928,"text":"調查文件需要得付相關單位查訪並得詢問與本案相關之人士或諮詢專家學者。本項會議召開及調查文件時的聘請專家學者可以通調查及針對調查內容表示意見。前項專家學者之人選以二人為縣由召集人提名,群體本小組成員表決之第13點被調查對象在調查基金應指派專人將調查文件。"},{"start":4942.728,"end":4968.442,"text":"宋達指定場所以供查閱並由本聯席會派員管理及負保管責任。第14點為行使調查職權必要時經本小組依職權行使法第59條資二一決舉行聽證會。第15點本小組提出調查報告及處理意見應經本聯席會決議調查報告書及處理意見為提出前工作人員、專業人員、保管人員或查閱人員"},{"start":4969.302,"end":4996.408,"text":"負有保密之義務．不得對文件內容或處理情形予以揭露涉及依法令應命令事項者應以保密並以命令會議處理之第16點本小組所需公眾人員由本聯席會職員擔任必要時的依立法院職權行使法第19條規定請求院長指派專業人員協助第17點本運作要點由本聯席會通過後施行修正時亦同宣完畢"},{"start":4999.96,"end":5027.752,"text":"好,委員會報告,剛才鏡電視深設及後續調查專案小組提案魯明哲委員委手提案第二段的1234第5行第5行裡面有第6行,123456原成立哪裡原成立?"},{"start":5029.35,"end":5049.202,"text":"原成立鏡電視深色及後續弊案加兩個弊案弊案、爭議、調查加兩個字,弊案兩個字各位有沒有意見?沒意見我們就修正通過修正通過翁委員是"},{"start":5053.531,"end":5054.451,"text":"請問各位委員對運作要點有沒有意見?名稱齁?"},{"start":5082.403,"end":5088.429,"text":"評審還有個人的規定有沒有意見?因為我建議我們這次成立的調查專案小組還是在裡面運作的要點裡面要多寫一個"},{"start":5103.359,"end":5107.08,"text":"提案的第二段的那個說明其中一部分把它加上去就是"},{"start":5127.566,"end":5154.71,"text":"成立這調查小組,然後針對國家通訊傳播委員會近年審查鏡電視深色審照及換照過程、外列接觸狀況等等由部法設立的情況然後進行調查,那並依此檢討衛星廣播電視法及國家通訊傳播委員會組織法等相關規定那我認為說,如果我們能夠加上這樣的一段成立調查小組的目的"},{"start":5155.39,"end":5155.63,"text":"請國常委員發言"},{"start":5188.242,"end":5212.813,"text":"針對這個運作要點提案的第13條不好意思是第14條第14條現在的規定是為行使調查職權必要時經本小組依據依職權行使法第59條之二議決舉行聽證會那我建議的文字是必要時本小組依"},{"start":5214.957,"end":5238.962,"text":"職權行使法可能要加上立法院三個字立法院職權行使法第59條之2我建議議決改成規定我兩點解釋第一個是我們有立法院職權行使法最好是寫法案的全文"},{"start":5240.151,"end":5268.109,"text":"那第二個部分齁第59條之二它裡面針對如果要召開聽證會的話是必須要經過院會決議的那所以我們把議權那兩個字把它改成規定這樣我們就讓這個運作小組完全的回到立法院職權行使法的規定來進行好好好謝謝謝謝國當委員那就第14條我念一遍為行使調查職權必要時"},{"start":5269.588,"end":5275.631,"text":"本小組依立法院職權行使法第59條之二規定舉行聽證會。"},{"start":5300.015,"end":5316.641,"text":"好,委員會報告,現在是不是開始推舉召集人?調查小組召集人?請舉手推舉好嗎?好,魯明哲委員提吳宗憲委員"},{"start":5319.023,"end":5340.5,"text":"謝榮健委員推舉黃國昌委員還有沒有?還有?還有沒有?好總召你協商一下嘛,總召他們都很謙讓"},{"start":5348.902,"end":5374.839,"text":"好,我們推舉吳宗憲委員為召集人的請舉手一二三四五好,那我們全數推舉吳宗憲委員擔任召委謝謝國參委員簽的好,我們掌聲通過好不好"},{"start":5381.507,"end":5383.868,"text":"中間委員就你了,謝謝請坐"},{"start":5417.523,"end":5428.785,"text":"是向主席還有各位委員宣讀我剛剛增加的文字那我就把第一點我就從頭先念到尾然後再講我增加還是我直接講增加的就好了好"},{"start":5429.878,"end":5446.563,"text":"立法院交通委員會、司法及法制委員會、依立法院職權行使法第8章調查權至行使及立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議決議成立鏡電視深設及後續爭議調查專案小組,括號以下簡稱本小組,要求"},{"start":5455.339,"end":5466.292,"text":"通傳會等有關機關就本案涉及事項提供相關資料配合調查詢問等並依此檢討國家通訊傳播委員會組織法及衛星廣播電視法相關規定"},{"start":5475.989,"end":5476.83,"text":"好了沒有?來來來謝謝"},{"start":5506.626,"end":5534.233,"text":"我剛剛的宣讀就是從這邊開始,就要求通常會等有關機關,然後這邊...這加進去就好了嗎?那你就說鏡電視深涉及後續弊案爭議調查小組運作要點,修正通通。好,各位對鏡電視深涉及後續弊案爭議調查專案小組運作要點,有沒有意見?"},{"start":5535.461,"end":5561.987,"text":"好 國產委員剛剛那個歐委員他增加的那些文字我都同意那我只是提醒一下因為我剛剛聽歐委員講他增加那個文字是寫通常會那因為要符合體力我們就把它改成把它改成完整的名稱修正一下好 各位沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":5565.963,"end":5586.729,"text":"針對本次會議做以下的決議一、成立立法院交通、司法及法制委員會、鏡電視、深社及後續弊案爭議調查專案小組並通過小組運作要點二、推舉吳宗憲為小組召集委員吳宗憲委員為小組召集委員"},{"start":5596.33,"end":5616.344,"text":"3.本次會議決議含之通常會4.如本次聯席會議,為最後一次議事錄授權主席核定後確定好,本次議程處理完畢,散會"},{"start":5625.254,"end":5625.815,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5654.989,"end":5656.43,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5702.979,"end":5710.243,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5727.811,"end":5728.212,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5774.88,"end":5779.963,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5789.633,"end":5801.457,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5822.11,"end":5822.892,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5835.332,"end":5836.813,"text":"立法院主席"},{"start":5861.729,"end":5862.73,"text":"立法院主席"},{"start":5880.767,"end":5881.628,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5909.489,"end":5909.729,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"16061","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16061","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcae5f17226264b1aa9e2506b9d78cd73c4f242ceca9577839e9f659ea1fe87bf85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-03","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-03T08:30:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:22:00+08:00","duration":10289,"影片長度":"02:51:29","委員發言時間":"08:30:31 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請提供本部意見如下, 敬請大院指教。"},{"start":2875.438,"end":2901.909,"text":"一、民法約定利息之範圍是否納入手續費、保管費、違約金或其他明目之費用等應審慎考量。將手續費、保管費、違約金及其他相關費用納入約定利率的範圍計算而受最高約定利率上限牽制一事一、委員所提之修正草案之目的乃稀為避免融資公司業者巧立明目"},{"start":2902.489,"end":2919.822,"text":"收取費用以規避民法第二百零五條規定之上限利益良善為人因審慎考量以下事項一、利息與違約金的性質不同按民法第二百零五條規定違約金依其性質可以區分為審判賠償的預定額或這個"},{"start":2923.284,"end":2934.677,"text":"懲罰性違約金但是違約金的適用均須以債務不理行為前提與利息作為使用金錢的對價對性質上有所不同"},{"start":2938.681,"end":2959.646,"text":"所以委員提案若將違約金納入利息計算或適同利息可能影響兩者的定性及適用問題所以大院在斟酌另外依照民法第二百五十二條規定約定之違約金額過高者法院得減至相當數額是以民法對於違約金過高情形已有規定"},{"start":2962.967,"end":2979.094,"text":"本條將違金納入或視同利息的話是否可能架控民法該條是適用或是限縮法官依職權作檢的空間須暫為斟酌。第二相關費用的範圍因為是不確定的法律概念"},{"start":2980.194,"end":2995.362,"text":"實務上費用的種類也相當多尤其我國是民商合一的立法體力所以本條適用之範圍也包含了很多商業上的交易行為例如說公證、代書或是旅行債務所甚至會費等等的這一些若"},{"start":3001.946,"end":3025.745,"text":"該如何計算,事實上在實務上也有需要考量的地方。第三,若超過約定,契約會無效的話,債務人恐怕必須立刻依照不當得力的相關規定來返還他前面所借貸的金錢。所以台灣文字所遇發生的法律效果可能還是要再斟酌。"},{"start":3027.826,"end":3034.931,"text":"到底是整個契約都無效還是只有超過的部分才無效可能還要再討論最後"},{"start":3039.773,"end":3067.279,"text":"比較重要的一點就是這個修正條文的適用範圍因為我們的實務上這個融資公司的這些行為他未必皆是以借貸契約來做這個他的契約的形式所以如果說以其他的方式來規避這個規定的話那麼有可能本次的立法的目的沒有辦法達成但是如果我們把所有的"},{"start":3067.899,"end":3092.346,"text":"應付利息之債全部都列入的話也有可能是否是我們這次立法所謂打擊式範圍可能要再討論另外對於本條二項的standing跟民法第二百零六條的適用的關係有需要再加釐清跟討論之處另外附帶還有一個問題就是上次在修正"},{"start":3093.346,"end":3117.996,"text":"兩百零五條的時候其實有就這個民法再編的施行法有同時來做修正也就是說清救法適用的問題可能也要一併來討論來考量那麼為求審慎對於本條的修正本部已經在專家學者的諮詢會議裡面有所討論並且已經在昨日發文函詢"},{"start":3119.156,"end":3119.797,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":3141.932,"end":3152.849,"text":"委員提案的兩發媒應舒子感佩為因民法第二百零五條的適用範圍廣泛建請再為審慎考量以上報告進行主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3154.465,"end":3182.996,"text":"好謝謝法務部黃社長的報告其餘機關報告請參閱書面機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄好那麼現在呢機關報告即已進行完畢現在開始詢答本會委員詢答時間8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位的陳俊委員發言"},{"start":3203.018,"end":3226.956,"text":"好謝謝主席我們鍾昭偉我們有請我們黃次長來請黃次長次長早市長我們今天要這個併案審查是有關民法第二百零五條的這個條文修正草案那主要是為了避免這個融資業者巧立名目來收費那我們這個明文規定就是在"},{"start":3228.766,"end":3245.547,"text":"約定的利率違約金與相關費用的總和就是不得超過16%的部分那許多業者可能就是剛剛稱呼剛剛次長您所做的這個說明方面會去巧立許多的名目來加收這個相關的費用"},{"start":3247.088,"end":3268.42,"text":"進而導致債務人難以償還的狀況我相信黃市長過去擔任立委的時候也可能接受過類似的陳情案件我們了解實際的經驗上確實任何民間貸款的管道都有可能設下許多的陷阱"},{"start":3269,"end":3288.828,"text":"尤其在當事人急著用錢的時候可能會傾向找放款快速的業者來借貸而未詳細的去了解其收費的這個方式和價目進而遭到業者以各種名目層層的剝削若現行的這個法規不夠周延的話業者能夠無視於這個利率的上限則條文形同虛設"},{"start":3293.334,"end":3320.622,"text":"就現行的這個民法206條的內容規定在全人除這個前條的限定的利息外不得以折扣或是其他方式巧取這個利益那與本次修法的目的大致相符那我想請教就是說我們法務部認為修法會與206條之間的適用產生什麼樣的問題是不是請我們次長大概回覆一下"},{"start":3320.902,"end":3342.718,"text":"是,謝謝委員的關心跟垂詢那我想這個部分呢這個在我們的討論中有提到因為這個我們民法的設計齁除了設定這個利率上限之外還有民法206條的一個這個強制規定但是實務上我們遇到一個問題就是說這個強制規定必須由法院來認定"},{"start":3344.099,"end":3366.655,"text":"也就是說呢如果這個當事人之間因為這個約定的這個這個利息經過這個巧立名目這個收取很多額外的費用甚至隱藏在他種的契約比如說買賣契約或是其他的這個形式之下的時候他要單獨看這個法條的文字來跟這個業者來做"},{"start":3367.756,"end":3371.439,"text":"實務上詢問司法院代表的意見他們也說在實務上相關的這一類案件經常都是依照辯論判決"},{"start":3384.788,"end":3403.92,"text":"也就是說事實上債務人根本沒有機會到法院去主張206條相關的適用當然如果依照大院委員目前提案的方向我們增訂205條的第二項的時候這個時候仍然有學者提醒我們"},{"start":3404.68,"end":3421.692,"text":"就是說不能因為我們訂了這個二百零五條的第二項說這些費用要計入這個利息的範圍之內就排除了二百零六條的適用所以我們會建議說未來這個看條文的文字怎麼調整或者是說至少在立法裡面說明"},{"start":3423.353,"end":3424.134,"text":"我們還是希望說我們制定這個相關的"},{"start":3452.632,"end":3468.057,"text":"規定是希望能夠來保護這些債務人因為說實在他是在財務狀況可能緊急狀況之下必須要去借錢可是在那個相關的契約或許這個"},{"start":3470.307,"end":3480.459,"text":"放款的業者所設下的一些內容沒有詳實的去閱讀的話往往都是一個非常大的陷阱所以我還是請法務部針對這個部分我們應該是要"},{"start":3483.652,"end":3487.254,"text":"對於我們規避利率上限的亂象,我們應該要如何嚴加控管?有沒有什麼比較具體的方式?"},{"start":3505.889,"end":3527.063,"text":"因為法務部主管是關於這個民法的條文關於這些現在大家比較關注的融資業者或是相關的這些金融或準金融的行為應該是由金管會或是相關其他的主管機關來針對這些行業來做一些行政管制的作為"},{"start":3528.304,"end":3543.433,"text":"大院也在4月份的時候開過兩次的委員會針對這個問題來做探討相信相關的主管機關應該會在行政管制面上來做加強我們今天來討論就是說在民法的部分是不是我們也可以把這種"},{"start":3544.193,"end":3544.713,"text":"．委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":3569.95,"end":3591.195,"text":"此文字的話或許他們在債務協商或是溝通的時候可以有一個比較明確的依據某種程度上可以來解決一定程度的問題當然並不能依靠一個條文的修正就可以解決所有的亂象恐怕還是要從我剛剛所說的對於這些業者的管制還是一個很重要的配套措施"},{"start":3591.755,"end":3616.94,"text":"好,謝謝市長那這部分就拜託我們法務部這個積極的去辦理能夠來做一個比較有效的管理另外就是針對這個矯正機關的部分那我特別感謝就我們鍾佳濱召委在星期一安排了去宜蘭這個監獄進行考察那我想說對於這個考察過程有一些這個"},{"start":3618.68,"end":3647.243,"text":"發言的問題跟次長您來做一個探討那在御所方面看起來這個我們目前的介護比的部分好像明顯的這個落差蠻大的在宜蘭御所看起來現在目前應該是1比9的介護比還是甚至更高是不是因為我們御方的這個相關的管理的人力不足"},{"start":3648.431,"end":3664.334,"text":"還是說我們這個收容的人數超收?到底是什麼原因?可不可以請市長您大概說明一下?是 跟委員報告那麼以全國來看我們的矯正機關的這個這個借戶比確實較其他國家是高出不少目前"},{"start":3665.035,"end":3677.402,"text":"整體平均大約是1比9,正如委員所說所以我們也不斷的在向行政院請證相關的緣額我們目前部內的目標是希望能夠朝向1比6這樣的一個"},{"start":3680.023,"end":3683.665,"text":"擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":3702.196,"end":3703.657,"text":"〈民法第二百零五條條文修正草案〉"},{"start":3722.305,"end":3733.731,"text":"因為我們說的這個收容人我們原則上還是會依照他的戶籍就近來做收容也方便他的家屬探視也方便他在復歸社會的時候可以重建他的社會關係所以說在這個"},{"start":3737.453,"end":3737.473,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":3756.573,"end":3756.753,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":3774.938,"end":3792.573,"text":"那個走了一趟之後我發現這個可能因為他這個建築物是81年建築的然後那我們經過0403之後也發現像立法院有一些建築物這個屋頂也有這個水泥塊剝落那我也希望說我們針對整個我們台灣所有的寓所"},{"start":3793.78,"end":3794.3,"text":"另外還有兩兩點建議一下就是在欸"},{"start":3815.526,"end":3840.894,"text":"我們之前有通過一個就是針對這個警察、消防、海巡、移民他們在夜間0點到6點有出勤的這個加班費那我也希望說我們法務部是針對這個部分也可以向上去爭取讓我們夜間執勤的這些同仁這個寓所裡面執勤的這些同仁也能夠受到這個相同的一個待遇"},{"start":3841.374,"end":3841.874,"text":"第二點就是這個借戶的這個危險加急"},{"start":3858.524,"end":3859.084,"text":"司法及法制委員"},{"start":3878.777,"end":3902.929,"text":"這個金額補貼的部分我們是不是法務部也可以相同的去爭取這兩項是跟委員報告這個深夜為勞津貼的部分事實上過去也有委員來向行政院提出不過人總目前還沒有答應但是我們法務部這邊已經責成矯正署積極的準備相關的文件跟說明"},{"start":3903.609,"end":3907.932,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．一）立法院第2會議"},{"start":3925.923,"end":3940.856,"text":"至於說危險佳績的部分據我們所了解事實上在108年的時候曾經調整過一次調整成現在的4500元它其實總共是分三級的我們也希望說這個部分我們部內也有在研議"},{"start":3945.94,"end":3970.94,"text":"希望能夠比照因為我們也需要準備相關的資料來跟人事總署來說明說我們要提高的依據跟這個相關的人員其他有領到這個金額的人員的這個勤務的性質有雷同的地方所以我們現在已經準備好相關的資料那麼我們也會一樣來向行政院來爭取來提出那也希望委員給我們最大的支持"},{"start":3971.24,"end":3971.58,"text":"羅委員智強發言"},{"start":4007.608,"end":4031.768,"text":"有請法務部金管會請黃次長還有金管會銀行局的侯祖密請問次長根據行政院消保處的統計2020年到2023年各地方政府受理涉及融資公司相關的消費爭議每年大概多少件"},{"start":4036.882,"end":4040.129,"text":"三百到四百件左右?你覺得數量多不多啊?"},{"start":4046.144,"end":4072.457,"text":"融資公司放款亂象其實已經不是單純市場秩序問題它逼著很多其實根本不具備金融知識的一些比如說初出社會的一些年輕人還沒進到社會就背負債務演變成社會問題所以本席也認同修正民法205條的一些相關的規定然後來杜絕融資業者巧立名目收取不合理的高利"},{"start":4073.337,"end":4092.843,"text":"但是法務部我看也列了很多要審慎考慮的修法理由也不是沒有道理不過我要想問那委員提案修法就是為了要解決融資公司貸款所衍生的相關問題嗎那如果說今天要審慎考慮的這麼多理由我不知道法務部有沒有對於解決問題有什麼良策"},{"start":4093.503,"end":4119.233,"text":"是跟委員報告那剛才我在報告的時候有特別提到我們在我們部內這個民法再編的研修小組有在上個月特別提請來針對委員的提案跟這個修法方向已經跟專家學者諮詢過了那所以呢我們原則上也是贊同要來這個修正這個條文來解決社會的問題但是因為我們的立法體力是民商合一"},{"start":4119.893,"end":4136.383,"text":"所以這個條文不是只會適用在我們剛剛所看到的這些違法的這些業者身上事實上我們所有的只要跟利息有關的商務行為或是我們政府機關的行為也都跟這條法律有關所以我們已經發文就我們諮詢的這個內容來跟我們所有的機關來做函詢"},{"start":4142.367,"end":4165.809,"text":"等我們收集完意見之後我們會中整之後針對我們這一次所提出來的問題我們會想辦法在條文裡面或在立法院裡面來理一個版本當然還有一個問題可能要請各位來協助就是說因為這個條文假設修正的話新舊法之間的適用可能也需要在施行法需要有一個提案的條文才能夠來做配套"},{"start":4166.61,"end":4166.77,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":4188.571,"end":4189.172,"text":"請教次長另外一個問題"},{"start":4207.186,"end":4221.017,"text":"你知道那個媒體島電子報的董事長吳子嘉已經去告發這個新華社記者趙博 涉有媒體報導內容涉有內亂罪你知道這個事情嗎"},{"start":4223.373,"end":4251.205,"text":"可能現在才聽委員提起我想請教一下吳子嘉的聲明裡面他認為說趙博是大陸地區人民據報載他的行為涉及壓制在場所有人的意識自主構成脅迫行為報載擅指該節目配合國台辦此顯色顛覆我國政府之內亂罪所以要委請律師告發"},{"start":4252.085,"end":4268.445,"text":"那如果報宅屬實電視台跟趙博涉嫌變更國體顛覆我國之普通內亂罪就是刑法第一百條那我想請教一下那目前高檢署你還不知道有沒有受理嘛對不對那裡面一個關鍵來了"},{"start":4271.192,"end":4288.233,"text":"吳子嘉號他申請要傳喚包括兩名自由時報記者包括陸委會主委邱垂正以及包括民進黨立委沈伯陽這件事情我想次長你總就有一些了解吧因為沸沸揚揚不太可能不知道嘛對不對"},{"start":4291.073,"end":4313.538,"text":"趙博 去盯騷東森電視台的某個政論節目有稍微看過新聞媒體的報導部長 次長 這個事情鬧這麼大你身為法務部 我們國家的法務的主管機關就像吳子嘉為什麼今天到高檢署去告請問高檢署是誰管轄的"},{"start":4314.963,"end":4342.019,"text":"高檢署是最高檢察署跟法務部法務部嘛對不對最高檢嘛對不對那我想請教您這事情你還是要有所掌握吧沒錯吧這個委員今天垂詢因為涉及個案偵查的我知道一定要講個案偵查不公開但你們七千五百多件偵查公開我上次都質詢過了沒關係但我只問你一個道理今天這個案子成案了之後的話"},{"start":4343.206,"end":4354.356,"text":"胡子佳很明確的指出囉兩位自由時報記者還有民進黨立委沈博洋為什麼要傳喚這三個人啊為什麼因為源頭就是三個人不是嗎"},{"start":4361.727,"end":4376.65,"text":"這件事所有的源頭就這三個人如果這件事屬實的話你就要循線去了解說到底事實真相如何嘛 對不對我就問嘛請問這個趙伯丁少趙伯丁少齁請問這個首先介入於報導是誰是哪個報紙報導自由時報嘛"},{"start":4387.583,"end":4412.524,"text":"所以這就是吳子嘉希望能傳喚這兩個自由時報的記者所以有爆料人喔爆料人就是這兩個自由時報記者但比這兩個自由時報記者更早的爆料人是誰?市長你知道嗎?就是民進黨立委沈博洋啦他說兩個月前就知道了而且部長你不太合格喔為什麼你知道嗎?他兩個月前就跟國安單位報告了"},{"start":4413.79,"end":4442.275,"text":"國安單位當然可能部長說未必把你算進去啦 次長啊 把你算進去啦 對不對但是法務部直施 對不對 我們的犯罪偵查次長請問 這個國安單位如果接到之後 這要偵辦法務部應該也要參與協助吧我想是由檢察署的檢察官齁 專責的檢察官來做服務 來做參與所以我希望我們的檢察機關 沒有我剛剛我是問你道理而已喔那我就想請教一下 很明確爆料人就三個啊"},{"start":4443.536,"end":4463.961,"text":"兩位自由時報記者加上偉大的天眼通的民進黨立委沈博洋啊 兩個月前就神知道啦那我想請教一下一個問題齁我們的陸委會的副主委楊文傑對此案的評語是什麼你知道嗎他說沒有爆料人欸沒有爆料人欸你有看報紙吧"},{"start":4469.326,"end":4471.588,"text":"他的說法可能跟這個委員現在的說法有點出入"},{"start":4489.628,"end":4490.888,"text":"梁文傑說沒有爆料人要嘛就睜眼說瞎話"},{"start":4509.178,"end":4536.9,"text":"要嘛就是什麼呢他可能是認為沈伯陽不夠格當爆料人因為沈伯陽就是個造謠假訊息的造謠龍頭啊所以這種造謠者的話可能我們梁文傑根本不是認為是爆料啊那我要回到請問一下我們的那個次長我上次質詢我們院長我有講過我們用過去民進黨八年用社會秩序維護法主要是辦造謠啦對不對"},{"start":4539.246,"end":4550.88,"text":"你知道辦了多少屆嗎?有七百多屆 六百多屆然後有五百屆法院裁定不罰啦所以我在講說民進黨很愛辦所謂的造謠啦 對不對"},{"start":4554.622,"end":4575.993,"text":"那我想請教一下 沈博洋今天如果說他是造謠的話 請問法務部要不要辦 該不該辦跟委員報告社會法相關的規定是由警察機關來先發動 那法務部這邊警察機關我問你就法律意見問你嘛 你不是經常發表法律意見嗎"},{"start":4577.435,"end":4594.555,"text":"民進黨這麼厲害對不對遇到謠言 造謠就去辦人家民眾還辦到說分工毀業七成多被民進黨辦的造謠法院都打臉欸超級棒的 一級棒的一個辦案效率啊沈伯陽他現在歸索起來算不算造謠啊"},{"start":4595.794,"end":4621.388,"text":"這個我想要由陳委員自己來說明當然啦他現在開始歸索起來跟大家講說這個有點疑似開始閃避問題那最重要的是梁文傑啊梁文傑說沒有爆料者省不讓就爆料者他要嘛就假爆料要嘛就是假爆料造謠要嘛真爆料結果呢是國安單位今天荒帶職務不查啦就這兩個可能性啦"},{"start":4623.129,"end":4646.234,"text":"當然不管怎樣我希望法務部這個事情既然吳子嘉已經去告發了能夠好好把爆料人請檢查機關斟酌案情爆料人要不要去約談一下不要當作是256沒發生 謝謝我想高檢署的甲官會議職權來進行依法辦理期待"},{"start":4651.36,"end":4653.141,"text":"謝謝羅委員 謝謝黃次長接下來請專委員瑞雄發言謝謝主席 有請我們法務部黃次長來請黃次長委員好"},{"start":4676.036,"end":4695.178,"text":"市長好我延續剛剛我們那個陳委員所提到是針對我們整個在監索這一些你們的好同仁的一些權益來做一個質詢就是說我記得在今年520這個"},{"start":4697.724,"end":4714.148,"text":"新政府交接之前行政院局合併警消、漁民及空勤深夜危牢津貼。從6月1日開始,針對深夜12點到清晨6點,第一線執行勤務同仁知己每小時100元實質補貼。我想內政部"},{"start":4721.924,"end":4745.704,"text":"部長曾經講過,就是說這些外勤人員的工作性質,不分晝夜將輪班,工作時間長而且危老程度高。這個我們都肯認,這個我們都肯認。但是,是不是也請次長法務部這邊要特別去留意,因為你們所挾的矯正署裡面這監所的管理人員,他們其實我看一看也符合這些條件。"},{"start":4747.366,"end":4769.875,"text":"市長,既然符合這些條件的話,你去把它看啊,上個月我們屏東才發生啊,就監守管理員在收容人在作亂的時候啊,就突然昏迷醉後,送醫不治,這個管理人員啊,我們看到這些,我們也都覺得啦,這個法令在一個國家的政府體制裡面啊,符合要件啊,總不能你內政部所挾的由,啊你法務部底下的又覺得好,又,又,監,監守的管理人員他一定會拿這個來做比較啦。"},{"start":4776.897,"end":4786.866,"text":"那我想這個在堅守管理員也必須要20小時輪班這樣的一個勤務長期在這個夜間高風險的環境這樣去做工作所以是不是"},{"start":4788.427,"end":4793.149,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案案。（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會及法制委員會等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案案。．完整會議"},{"start":4814.62,"end":4829.381,"text":"過去透過委員來做爭取的時候人總的回覆確實輕忽了我們的矯正機關所屬這些人員他確實也有在深夜必須要外出來做危險性的勤務這樣的一個事實"},{"start":4830.582,"end":4849.448,"text":"所以我們已經準備好相關的資料那今日就會來向行政院提案提出我認為市長這個民法部責無旁貸因為在政府部門裡面你把它分部門條件符合有的部門有有的沒有這個不通這個是交由一下那針對今天我相信要審的這個利息之債"},{"start":4856.481,"end":4877.02,"text":"我對今天的一個提案我們可以看得出來,這個社會對於這個約定利息太高了,這個大家都討厭尤其外面這一些現在的一些融資公司巧利名目收取高額這樣的一個費用,造成一些民眾尤其是那些辛苦人"},{"start":4877.62,"end":4878.28,"text":"司法及法制委員會議"},{"start":4893.61,"end":4920.033,"text":"那都在18個18你看那個銀行法第47條之一第二項你規定循環利率不得超過年利率15%2020年民法205條修訂超過約定的利率無效因為現在呢這簡單來講啦過去我們把銀行的最高利率調低了有超過了那利率是無效還可以主張債權人要還那個超過部分的一個利息但是修法以後我們確實看到"},{"start":4920.734,"end":4948.473,"text":"很多人還是巧立名目你這個是覺得非常討厭手續會保管會違約金不同的一個規則來逃避這16%的一個限制所以今天才會有委員來提出這樣的一個提案這個我們都懂但問題就是說那其實如果去看借貸的年率不得超過16%不要忘記我們一個叫做當鋪我以前在做台北市議員的時候那個當鋪業者台北市公立的那個年終獎金都特別高"},{"start":4950.094,"end":4951.115,"text":"為什麼連中獎金特別高?"},{"start":4951.115,"end":4961.243,"text":"因為賺錢公立當鋪當然也都那麼賺錢 不要去講說民間啦 真的是很賺錢所以在當鋪業法裡面第11條特別規定說當鋪業的合法利率高達幾%呢?30%你給我看 市長 你也是法律人一個最高16% 一個最高30%人性一定會挑比較低的啊可是呢 台灣的當鋪現在幾間你知道嗎?"},{"start":4978.777,"end":4981.866,"text":"一兩千斤合法的"},{"start":4983.001,"end":4993.284,"text":"不法的不講喔!合法的喔!所以這真的很可怕!所以我們去...會去這樣找的人喔!會去當鋪找的人也會有苦衷啦!我不要去問啦!我說你們以前有多少人比較多?他說有某大同電鍋來電檔的啦!有某米皮來的啦!以前國家時代什麼的都有!那個叫解決藍美之急嘛!所以不得已才去選擇當鋪可是我們去看其他國家"},{"start":5009.768,"end":5021.597,"text":"我昨天第一個 這兩天我第一個想到的是說我們很少炒德國你去看德國 你去看日本在德國他們民法法典裡面246條的規定的法定利率4%"},{"start":5023.973,"end":5044.02,"text":"如果遲延幾戶在臥部旅行情況之下德國的民法288條基礎利率再加個5%這最高是9%欸過來啦我們當年我們很多民法我們很多也抄德國可是我們很多又跑去抄日本你去看德國那個整個大典當業者有分私營跟公營平均利率也只有12%啊我們才30%"},{"start":5046.701,"end":5074.49,"text":"所以我整理整個律例我就發現很奇怪臨近的我們去看日本他們以金錢為標的消費借貸這個部分年律例上限按照借貸金額去定上限本金不滿10萬元年律例跟我們以前阿伯修一樣20% 典當業者阿他們又比我們便宜是3到8%阿我們是30%所以我們這個法律喔我這個我都不知所措你知道嗎所以我的一總結來講就是說德國的年律率最高是9%"},{"start":5075.99,"end":5076.35,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":5098.752,"end":5099.492,"text":"內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會"},{"start":5114.002,"end":5114.762,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議"},{"start":5134.347,"end":5161.784,"text":"當然那這個也是因為不同的融資的市場他所受的管制是不同為什麼這麼多人為什麼不去借這個一般銀行的這個3% 2%要去借這個高利貸我們俗稱的這些或是當鋪這些這麼高的利率因為他們所受的這個擔保或是管制的條件不一樣所以在不同的這個借貸市場裡面行政管制可能會有不同的考量"},{"start":5163.455,"end":5182.688,"text":"當然我們現在今天我們所要修的這個民法我們修正之後它仍然會是一個普通法的位階所以如果對於這個典當業的這個30%覺得有這個覺得不合時宜的地方就像我們過去從這個最高利率上限民法的20%把它調降到16%一樣"},{"start":5183.729,"end":5185.07,"text":"一般民眾常常事後有的還不起錢有的認為說他被訛詐了"},{"start":5203.787,"end":5228.513,"text":"他動不動他會想去提告重力罪其實哪有那麼簡單我們這個整個重力罪344條你去把它看啦他是趁人急迫輕率或沒有經驗或難以求助之處境待與金錢其他物品取得跟原本顯不相當是啊 跟原本都顯不相當啊可是前面又是講說急迫輕率無經驗很多人去就實在是要件會不會符合其實都很難講啊"},{"start":5229.773,"end":5258.864,"text":"你覺得我們以前大一在討論民法總則七十二條開始跟你說主張消費借貸違反公序兩屬無效我們以前看很多判決但是法院就直接說你這個違反公序兩屬你這個無效沒有請求權七十四條主張對方是暴力行為我要把你給撤銷問題就是說這個以現在來看今天這樣的一個修法本席其實也可以體會到說來提案委員對這種消費借貸及巧立名目很多人的一個不滿但也不要忘記喔"},{"start":5259.946,"end":5275.15,"text":"你像一些融資的租賃這些那個其實都是借貸的性質那這一些你如果說我們在這個貿然這樣把它做一個修法其他你們沒有再去諮詢對各個產業會產生衝擊的話這個其實這個問題會很大所以市長我倒認為你們也應該去把"},{"start":5286.243,"end":5314.868,"text":"本院委員所提案的這個肯認他們提案的這樣的一個初衷但是會產生的一個衝擊其實你們也必須要去應該更謹慎或者說更廣範圍的請業界來提供對他們的衝擊會是什麼否則說實在話這種東西明確老百姓是喜歡的喔老百姓一聽到說吼那麼多亂七八糟的動不動就弄那麼多名目啊什麼手續費用相關的一些費用可是這個這個"},{"start":5316.208,"end":5335.436,"text":"這個很難去做一個界定我不曉得簡單最後次長聽聽你們法務部的意見是謝謝委員的關心但我們的心情都跟提案委員還有各位委員是相同的我們也對於巧立明牧這樣的亂象事實上本來他就疑似就是有可能會落入民法206條所不許"},{"start":5337.057,"end":5352.478,"text":"此行為中,我們認為要有一個更清楚的規定來做一個制約。但誠如我們在今天報告所提出來的,也確實如剛剛委員所說的,這個合法的行為跟這個疑似是巧立弥勒的行為,"},{"start":5353.719,"end":5376.889,"text":"事實上是很難在文字上面去做區別所以影響範圍又這麼大因為我們是民商合一的立法體力跟委員剛剛所說的這個德國跟日本都不一樣所以我們也確實有必要來徵詢各行各業各主管機關的意見所以我們已經在經過內部討論之後有將我們的初步的看法"},{"start":5377.709,"end":5406.246,"text":"來含詢給所有的主管機關希望他們針對他們所管理的這些業別當然委員剛剛所提到的銀行業、當鋪業等等對於這一條的修正會不會受到衝擊或影響那他們會提供相關意見給我們那麼之後我們會根據大家的意見回來中整之後再提出在文字上在立法理由上比較妥適完備的版本出來提供大院來做參考"},{"start":5406.866,"end":5429.565,"text":"你去把它看看我們整部民法過去從約定的律例你看最高不能超過20%那一部民法法典這樣子去抄人家抄下來以後是幾十年連動都不能動那你修完了以後你現在貿然去把它去把它說要把它降下來沒有去考到各產業的一個衝擊或者各個法律之間的一個競合"},{"start":5431.019,"end":5431.179,"text":"主席"},{"start":5463.604,"end":5477.064,"text":"主席我們請黃次長來請黃次長委員好次長早今天很高興次長能夠到本委會來列席謝謝委員"},{"start":5479.202,"end":5495.964,"text":"市長的這個過去這個法學的專業素養素來受大家各界包括實務界包括我們這個立法院大家同仁的肯定希望說市長在這個現在的工作崗位上面能夠發揮你個人的這個"},{"start":5498.257,"end":5498.457,"text":"法律專長"},{"start":5522.13,"end":5523.912,"text":"犯罪手法其實他當然因為他是一個"},{"start":5545.632,"end":5550.253,"text":"本委員會正在審查程序中的打詐司法裡面的三法,是在本委員會來審查"},{"start":5569.128,"end":5588.803,"text":"我個人就是說,針對現在這樣子的這種以公私帳戶,因為公私帳戶他有他有他跟一般的人頭帳戶他不太一樣,公私帳戶他有有比較這個這個特別的一些特性,就是他的一些他的出入的金額一般你比較不會引起這個金融業靈慧的這個這個問題,所以警覺了,對,所以我個人針對現在這樣子的"},{"start":5596.38,"end":5604.141,"text":"的這個申辦人頭詐騙案的用公司帳戶申辦人頭詐騙的案件的狀況我們法務部有沒有掌握"},{"start":5604.833,"end":5630.208,"text":"是我想陳如委員所提到的這個今天早上的新聞這個刑事警察大隊已經發動搜索偵破這一個個案之後也移送這個地檢署來做偵辦當中那麼我們對於這個部分因為其實公司的帳戶法人的帳戶過去作為人頭帳戶之用也不是沒有但如果說陳如委員所提到現在因為我們洗錢防治"},{"start":5630.808,"end":5631.468,"text":"．立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":5652.199,"end":5659.083,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會及法制委員會等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第1會議"},{"start":5673.65,"end":5699.756,"text":"目前我們所設定的包括洗錢房子等是一個破口所以這部分刑法部要提早來研議我們會跟金管會因為這個賬戶現在的這個新設開設相關的前置的這個審查還是由金管會這邊來做處理那公司賬戶是不是有這個成立的過程太過容易或是等等或是說他的交易行為什麼異常我們可以來做交流來做研討來做預防"},{"start":5700.714,"end":5719.204,"text":"那這個針對今天的這個民法第205條的修正案,我想剛才前面幾位委員都有提到,大概我們這個提案委員,我看他今天這樣子的提案委員跟今天所排定的議程基本上受到不分黨派大家都支持,支持這個"},{"start":5722.345,"end":5748.122,"text":"包括今天的議程以及這個大家都認為說相關的這些這些民間的這些這些金融公司的這些規範齁這個應該要加強齁那但是我看這個包括法務部齁包括我們司法院的這個書面報告齁都對這一條的這個修正齁這單獨就就205條做這樣子的修正齁都有一些疑慮啦齁尤其是他跟206條的這些相關的的的關聯齁"},{"start":5752.425,"end":5760.134,"text":"這些有些部分我看這個法務部的意見因為今天兩個版本其實這兩個委員的版本也不太一樣一個我們這個國務委員的版本是超過16%的部分無效"},{"start":5767.745,"end":5789.429,"text":"主席主席的版本是如果超過16%整個契約就無效了所以這個這個這個就就這光兩個委員在這個部分他也也不太一樣但是我看這個我們法務部的書面報告這部分剛才剛才大概有幾位委員都提這個我們次長大概也也講得蠻清楚的就是說針對針對這個"},{"start":5792.607,"end":5793.769,"text":"這個修法跟206條的適用關係這部分是不是請次長再"},{"start":5798.597,"end":5820.695,"text":"進一步的來說明一幕上所顯示的最高法院103年度這個判決事實上它的背景是在修法前所以它會有請求權存在與否的問題但是現在我們的修法已經是無效了所以其實應該是要用新法來做討論現在我們還要再修這個法"},{"start":5825.694,"end":5833.78,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":5849.17,"end":5872.677,"text":"那我想這個很多的民法學者又跟我們提醒這一點所以我們會看是要在文字裡面去敘述市長這部分我想每一個委員都一樣希望我們法務部能夠盡快的就這些相關的這些法案能夠做出新的那個就是你們能夠有相對的相對的針對目前的這205條的修正你們能夠提出你們法務部相對的意見那這個這個部分我想這個剛才的幾位委員的"},{"start":5877.679,"end":5887.624,"text":"大概都已經問得蠻清楚我先請市長請回主席我們現在請經管會今天經管會是銀行局主祕"},{"start":5892.886,"end":5909.432,"text":"主委早了,我想剛才我跟市長的這些對話裡面其實有很多的部分其實就牽涉到金管會了這個包括說我們提到的現在新的這個現在新型態的以這個公司以這個公司的人頭公司的帳戶來進行"},{"start":5910.752,"end":5931.966,"text":"作為詐騙的人頭賬戶,這樣子相關的規定。另外就是說,我們今天所討論的主題,除了這個民法,就民法205條,直接就這個利息的上限做規定之外,我們目前這個有關這個租賃公司的這些融資業務,我想這部分是我們金管會所主管的業務。這個我"},{"start":5935.219,"end":5936.943,"text":"我本席在111年的12月7號我在財政委員會我就曾經質詢過質詢過有關這個"},{"start":5946.961,"end":5967.203,"text":"現在大概我們一般的租賃公司它的業務大概有幾種形態,包括資本的租賃,包括營業性租賃,重要的是商品買賣的分期付款,所謂先買後付,BMPL這個部分,另外可能還有一些營收賬款的買賣,資金的待遇等等。"},{"start":5967.83,"end":5993.212,"text":"但是我那時候就針對這個BMPL我就有提出質詢那時候金管會的答覆是說會跟這個相關的業者來進行溝通溝通的結果我們看到就是說我們目前金管會的方式是用這個業者的自律規範來規範現在目前的這個租賃公司的融資業務對不對"},{"start":5995.254,"end":6019.949,"text":"是的委員目前來說就是我們有請臺北市租賃公會就是參考這個大家的意見來訂了這個他們也針對這樣的一個所謂BMPL業務訂了一個自律規範這部分就是我最後要跟你們溝通我們看到各國的立法例你針對相關這種租賃公司每一個國家大家都有相關的法令在規範只有我們用自律規範"},{"start":6021.533,"end":6046.326,"text":"我們目前對這些租賃公司沒有這個法律的約束力的我們美國有用這個消費者信用保護法連香港香港他們用放款人條例就來規範這些租賃公司日本他們有貸金業法澳門這個租賃這個融資租賃公司法律制度只有台灣用治癒規範在規範用治癒規範在規範它最大的問題是這些治癒規範第一個它也沒有法則"},{"start":6050.305,"end":6063.755,"text":"自律規範沒有法則啊所以你違反這個自律規範他沒有任何的法則第二就是這個自律規範其實我個人就按照這個工會的自律規範去看這幾家業者齁我看這幾家業者網站連這幾大業者都沒有確實的按照自律規範在執行啊他們說像自律規範第二條我這邊就舉這個例子了自律規範第二條他說"},{"start":6078.687,"end":6094.411,"text":"這個先買後付業者應該要建立客訴專責單位結果上網去看這些公司都沒有什麼客訴他們都沒有成立客訴專責單位啊他們只有在網站上寫一個所謂聯絡我們的電話就這樣也沒有說明說這聯絡我們這個公司的電話打去是總機呢還是是專責的客服單位呢"},{"start":6105.373,"end":6128.976,"text":"因為跟委員報告是本身目前的租賃公司其實他並不是金管會主管的金融機構不過就是我們繼續說社會上有這樣一個期待所以我們這邊有先透過租賃公司的部分請這個租賃公會這邊是不是能夠去做這樣一個研議那目前來說事實上有所謂的三大租賃公司那他們目前都是上市的公司所以上市公司部的話當然是金管會來主管所以我們這個"},{"start":6129.537,"end":6144.458,"text":"但是你們盡管會主管,你們現在只用自律規範來規範這些租賃公司,我個人認為是相當的不足啦。包括他本身就沒有罰則,包括你這個自律規範本身他們業者的遵守程度也都很低啦齁。這個我時間也到。"},{"start":6146.941,"end":6161.476,"text":"這部分我還是希望說監管會能夠提升我們對這些融資公司他們的監管的強度但是這個部分也特別要包括在今天的修法裡面就是說"},{"start":6163.532,"end":6189.417,"text":"一般的這個民眾他的這個融資管道大概就你有財力健全的他就到金融機構去直接去貸款接下來第二層才是我們今天所討論的這些相關的融資公司那如果我們這部分我們把他緊縮到一個程度之後可能真正社會需要他就往第三層跑了他就往這個地下金融去地下錢莊借錢了"},{"start":6191.089,"end":6215.269,"text":"所以這個如何拿捏這個中間這一層這個融資公司的這個監理跟他們的相關利潤其實像今天的修法法務部認為說這個第206條這個巧取利益但事實上司法實務在判決的時候最常出現的就是說這算不算巧取利益"},{"start":6217.157,"end":6237.498,"text":"連司法院的報告上面就寫說因為借貸還款也有一定的合理成本費用所以他這些他所立的這些名目收的這些費用到底是合法的成本費用還是巧立還是巧取利益這個在深圳實務上的爭論就在這裡"},{"start":6239.915,"end":6255.048,"text":"所以這部分我個人也是比較支持這個法務部的立場希望說這個我們能夠等待法務部就相關的法規做盤整之後提出法務部的自己的版本之後我們再來進行審查以上謝謝委員好謝謝沈委員謝謝祖密"},{"start":6268.702,"end":6292.03,"text":"接下來我們請鍾佳濱總委員上台質詢主席因為在剛剛的提案說明的部分因為主席的關係所以我先容許我剛剛的提案說明我很簡短的說明一次本席的提案說明是鑒於近年來常有融資公司業者巧立手續費"},{"start":6293.03,"end":6315.809,"text":"保管費違約金等名目藉以規避現行年利率16%之限制而依據行政院消費者保護處的統計過去每年約有三四百件該類的融資相關消費爭議那因為銀行是特許行業金管會對它有行政指導權並且能近期精簡因此銀行多不至於危害消費者"},{"start":6316.63,"end":6335.934,"text":"但是這些販稱融資公司的業者並無人監督實務上也常見他們經常又使大學生、事業者或是上班族進行抄袋製造更多的社會問題因此本席原提案修正民法第二百零五條第一項明定超過利率上限之契約無效並且增加第二項明定伴隨債務產生之各項規費違約應納入共同計算好那麼現在主席我就有請"},{"start":6344.035,"end":6354.539,"text":"法務部黃次長金管會銀行局侯祖密同時邀請經濟部陳副署長和消保處陳副處長並同協助說明。"},{"start":6366.127,"end":6391.239,"text":"市長其實呢我先先秀一下一些報紙的一些媒體報導啊他說呢租賃公司不看收入證明高利貸放給小白因此呢只在付償啊因為多數的家長呢不忍心孩子欠錢他就會出來清償又或者說透過融資公司的貸款38萬先扣手續費9%代辦公司呢要手續費加兌保費實際上只拿到30萬甚至最後還了52萬"},{"start":6392.952,"end":6407.338,"text":"立律高達51%請問一下次長過去在您的服務的民眾經驗中有沒有常遇到這樣的民眾的爭議是我想我們都會遇到都會遇到嗎那另外呢我們的副處長還有主秘還有這個副署長"},{"start":6411.477,"end":6432.253,"text":"民法第二百零五條的修正條文我剛已經介紹過了但是主要本席的修正目的是防止融資公司巧烈名目收費那我來介紹一下幾個情況請大家來瞭解大家聽過分期付款吧分期付款就是我消費者我要買車可能要一百萬那我就跟銀行"},{"start":6434.702,"end":6461.545,"text":"銀行會幫我去銀行辦個分期付款那把我買的車呢設定抵押給銀行那銀行呢就要把車款呢付給了車商然後呢我未來就是定期的去付銀行的分期付款是不是這樣子是所以分期付款呢一定加上我跟銀行的利息嘛好這是正常的情況那麼是什麼融資註定呢融資註定就是說這個承租人呢他的信用啊銀行不會貸款給他所以他找了一個"},{"start":6462.265,"end":6462.585,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6485.831,"end":6507.276,"text":"沒有辦法去融資所以透過融資租賃公司去用租賃的形態實際上取得融資購車的需求是這樣那等到這個租約期滿呢他產值呢搞不好陳住人還可以跟他買大概是這樣好但是我們現在看一下現在的情況呢什麼情況有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬有沒有聽過有請問後面祖密有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬年輕的上班族學生"},{"start":6515.39,"end":6516.651,"text":"副處長,您有沒有聽過?有聽過新聞報導。知道怎麼發作嗎?副處長。"},{"start":6527.766,"end":6527.987,"text":"主席"},{"start":6545.478,"end":6570.837,"text":"建立三十萬但是呢你要有機車很奇怪建你錢要你機車幹嘛設定給我嗎沒有機車沒有辦法設定抵押但是呢他說你我給你三十萬購買你所有的機車的使用權車子還是你的我跟你買這輛車的使用權然後呢你每個月要付我租金這樣了解了齁我三十萬是買你機車組的使用權"},{"start":6572.045,"end":6590.384,"text":"但是呢你有沒有拿到30萬沒有他給你7扣8扣他就呢只給你21萬那這一個30萬誰出呢這個30萬啊其實呢他跟受害者拿了他的各種所謂的這個租車的相關資料他幫受害者去申請銀行的銷貸信用貸款"},{"start":6593.497,"end":6612.332,"text":"那很奇怪啊受害者自己跟銀行借不到錢但是融資公司有辦法用他的證件去用他本人做信用貸款跟銀行做結果呢這個受害者他其實就背負了一個銀行的負債他每個月交給融資公司的租金融資公司把他拿去給銀行還本息"},{"start":6613.106,"end":6638.116,"text":"一旦這個受害者他付不起這個租金車子是他的他付不起使用車子的租金銀行就開始來跟他追債請問次長那個模式是不是你所知道的是我有看過這樣的情形他就很巧妙的用話術事實上用受害者的身份去辦信用貸款那本身他又拿受害者的車子虛假造了一個使用權的購買"},{"start":6640.083,"end":6669.025,"text":"然後呢再把錢給他那要還租金然後去幫他還他的貸款好那還有一種情況叫做汽車超貸永遠還不完而且越欠越多正常來講我們買車現在很多啊並出社會沒有多久年輕人啊一開始就欠一輛車啊一百萬還可以怎麼樣還可以有現金什麼意思融資公司說來買車一百萬我幫你付然後呢我給你貸款了一百二十萬債務那你扣掉手續費你可以拿十二萬現金"},{"start":6670.755,"end":6694.33,"text":"買一輛車一百萬還可以拿現金天體要這麼好的事情嗎沒有他就負債負債一百二十萬他前六個月可能還了本利息還了六期還了三十萬債務打消的本金二十萬融資公司說你還了六期了我幫你整合債務然後呢我再找二胎找B融資公司融資公司說我可以借你一百五十萬"},{"start":6695.899,"end":6723.801,"text":"一輛車經過這樣的一胎到二胎本來借一百二現在變成借一百五但是一百五十萬現在拿一百萬把它原來的前一胎代償一百這五十萬B融資公司沒有給他五十萬他只拿到三十五扣了十五萬的手續費後續他要付一百五十萬債務的分期的一個償還而且這樣的越還負債越多請問次長有沒有聽過這樣的一個目前坊間的做法"},{"start":6725.954,"end":6725.974,"text":"陳副處長"},{"start":6741.105,"end":6764.179,"text":"一個是副組長,您知道民間所謂的汽車超額貸,越貸越多,越貸永遠還不完,知道這樣運作嗎?第一次嘛齁,現場有沒有人之前知道借過的?好像沒有。我也是花了很多時間,民眾因為超額貸越還欠越多,我們才知道原來融資公司是這樣操作的。好,問題來了,來。"},{"start":6766.502,"end":6783.973,"text":"市長我們今天就是因為這些融資租賃公司透過各種的話術的包裝或者是機車借30萬他是把機車假設是一個使用權的使用借貸關係然後呢把你去設定信用貸款"},{"start":6784.963,"end":6805.256,"text":"另外一個是越代越多是用一胎二胎的包裝現在你們法務部的書面報告說本席的提案他說只能適用借貸契約那融資租賃不能涵蓋那請問我剛剛講的這些例子有什麼方法可以解決如果刪除我提案當中的借貸兩個字有沒有辦法去針對這些狀況來解決問題"},{"start":6809.792,"end":6830.805,"text":"陳如剛才委員為我們所詳細解說的這個實務上巧立名目甚至變更契約的類型的形式來完成他這個操帶或是借貸的這個目的事實上樣態非常多委員所歷史的這些其實都是造成我們在適用民法這一條上面的困難"},{"start":6831.545,"end":6832.065,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":6846.872,"end":6849.293,"text":"二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第1會議"},{"start":6870.322,"end":6885.1,"text":"所以這個部分事實上還是我們一開始有講有之前委員催詢的可能還是要加強行政的監理跟管理才有辦法去遏止這樣的脫法行為因為其實剛剛我們所看到這些例子"},{"start":6885.6,"end":6910.433,"text":"假設他進到法院事實上透過司法的審理有可能法院會把他做實質認定或者是用兩百零六條來處理但是我們現在看到比較困難的是會去接這種借貸的很多都是比較弱勢的債務人他們沒有辦法去負擔這個司法程序的這些成本跟這個過程所以我們這個民法雖然已經有規定了但是他們用不到"},{"start":6911.033,"end":6940.279,"text":"好是剛剛次長你講了很重要一點很多這種借貸的受害者他是因為在正常的金融體系他沒有辦法借到錢他的信用在正規的銀行看起來信用不好才會有這些民間的借貸公司用那個融資租賃的方式來跟他詐騙所以侯祖密我們常常說我們的銀行要什麼普惠金融是不是30萬的小額貸款銀行借不到結果一個"},{"start":6940.981,"end":6954.428,"text":"議員"},{"start":6954.707,"end":6956.808,"text":"議員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11會議"},{"start":6977.577,"end":6979.759,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":7002.239,"end":7030.025,"text":"一旦你的分期付款的模式被破解比如說你後悔了你不要了他說你拆了包裝不能退但是你的債務還是存在不因為你退貨就能解除這個借貸關係是不是這樣子是好那我們再來往下看所以呢這裡面我們剛剛講到還要學到行政的方法根據我們金融服務業提供金融商品或服務前說明契約重要內容及介入風險辦法請問這是不是銀行局所管的"},{"start":7032.028,"end":7034.189,"text":"銀行局跟你們都有關聯啦,好,一樣他說這裡要介入再往下看"},{"start":7059.983,"end":7079.76,"text":"那麼根據行政院的目前我們正在審理中即將送二讀的洗錢防治法修正草案的第五條融資性租賃市長這個洗房法是我們防護部是那這裡的融資性租賃是不是我指的剛剛那兩種方式都是屬於融資性租賃規範的含色範圍內"},{"start":7083.441,"end":7088.231,"text":"那這裡面在第10條說要留下交易紀錄要保存而且法務部要匯商相關機關來訂資是不是這樣?"},{"start":7090.351,"end":7118.689,"text":"我想這個部分要說明的是委員所提到的目前所提到的洗房法相關的草案的內容事實上都是現行法已有規定之調整點這個調製那所以我們這邊所要求他所適用是關於洗房衣物的規定那但是我們今天所討論的其實是一個監理行為那所以說是否在他的監理行為裡面要納入這些委員所講的這個相關的監理接錄啊錄音錄影啊"},{"start":7119.549,"end":7139.004,"text":"還是要由目的事業主管機關來主理?目的事業主管機關會是誰?我們來開始考驗一下對方融資性租賃公司是屬於金管會管的嗎?主任秘密是不是你們管的?目前是沒有那當然提到所謂洗錢房子法的部分有關洗錢房子的部分是我們分離的好那我們趕快那麼所以呢我是訴求希望未來在行政院的洗錢房子法當中可以要求融資公司"},{"start":7147.17,"end":7161.706,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條條文修正草案．"},{"start":7167.932,"end":7193.512,"text":"剛剛所講的那些內容如果有一個定型化契約以後在法院訴求的時候呢就有所依據啦是不是請次長回去我們會同去考量一下我想這個因為剛剛依照那個條文還是要由目的事業主管機關來會商法務部來做那我們還是要請因為剛剛那個機關會有提到在洗房的範圍內他們是這個指定的專門目的事業主管機關沒有錯那我們再跟他們會商看如何來處理這個問題"},{"start":7195.155,"end":7197.643,"text":"謝謝次長,謝謝副署長,副署長跟主秘謝謝,謝謝主席"},{"start":7208.459,"end":7215.464,"text":"好接下來請林楚英委員不在請傅坤祺委員不在請林思明委員不在請楊瓊英委員不在請蘇清泉委員不在請黃珊珊委員發言"},{"start":7237.177,"end":7239.339,"text":"經濟部副署長金管會銀行局主秘"},{"start":7253.161,"end":7278.32,"text":"三位好我想除了這個所謂的民法的修正本席更關心的其實是怎麼執行的問題這個相關的利息不管是違約金代辦費或者是什麼那現在當然委員們的修法是希望把它納到205條那206條重點不是你們現在的報告我看起來好像對於這些性質跟屬性跟定義都是有疑問的是嗎"},{"start":7279.079,"end":7307.258,"text":"我跟委員報告因為法條文字定下去之後它含色的會包含到合法的非法所以沒有辦法明確化對所以重點不是在於給他什麼名義而是他們你用了這個名義他明天會有新的名義啊是重點在於我們怎麼監管今天經濟部也在金管會也在其實融資租賃業現在已經成為我們講的影子銀行他大到不是不能倒他大到不能管"},{"start":7308.338,"end":7333.72,"text":"現在的問題就在於說這麼多的融資亂象現在叫做無法可管或無人在管我想問一下現在融資助令到底誰在管金管會是你在管嗎不是來經濟部是不是你在管銀行局以前融資助令在銀行局做在銀行局主管以自律規範在做以自律規範在管所以基本上叫做銀行局自律規範管誰"},{"start":7335.888,"end":7337.489,"text":"關於利率利息跟手續費有規定的叫做銀行嗎?"},{"start":7365.066,"end":7387.736,"text":"或相關保險公司在借錢也有定利率的規範。我想請問經濟部,你們有沒有定過相關融資公司他們的利率規範?有沒有?沒有。為什麼沒有定?沒有母法嗎?基本上民法本身就有利率上限的規定。銀行局可以定,銀行業可以管,你為什麼不能管?因為沒有要管嗎?"},{"start":7391.519,"end":7414.226,"text":"今天的問題在於沒有人要管我今天就算把民法幫你們修了多年但是一樣融資公定公司沒有人要管才是今天的真點因為公司法本身沒有是因為你只管公司法公司法有70萬家公司怎麼會輪得到經濟部來管融資租賃業重點在於另外一個問題融資租賃業他是有洗房業務剛剛趙委員問得很清楚洗房業務是誰管"},{"start":7420.915,"end":7429.745,"text":"金管會又管他的洗房業務,但又不管他能夠去處理的利息跟相關的規範。我們這個國家齁,就是只管一半啦。"},{"start":7430.652,"end":7459.13,"text":"做半套半套還管不好另外一個問題是我們融資出定業者超過50萬新台幣以上的現金交易要不要向調查局申報法務部是要不要要有沒有申報過經濟部你有沒有接到任何資訊或者調查局有向法務部報告我查了一下調查局這邊112年申報大額通貨交易的件數銀行幾百萬件保險業幾千件甚至連銀樓都很多件"},{"start":7459.81,"end":7479.722,"text":"融資註定公司零件有沒有融資註定公司向調查局申報大額交易的業務有沒有目前應該還沒有申報是零來經濟部不是你管的嗎你管過嗎沒有他們沒有沒有一個融資註定公司向你的主管機關叫經濟部"},{"start":7482.284,"end":7482.924,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":7506.277,"end":7533.596,"text":"民間團體卡在自救受害人自救會還有臺北律師公會都已經提出了融資租賃專法的版本我也會提我想在立法院很多的委員都在爭取這件事情重點是政府不能只管半套啊剛剛講過了沒人管不想管有辦法也不定有規定也不遵守這是我們的政府在縱容這些影子銀行不斷的做大"},{"start":7534.964,"end":7552.999,"text":"現在的金管會只做一件事情就是啊那三家上司我找他來喝咖啡啊然後喝完咖啡呢一樣申報過嗎洗錢業務報告過嗎沒有不理你所以今天的問題在於法務部如果真的要解決這個問題洗房也是你"},{"start":7554.788,"end":7578.457,"text":"現在民法也是你但是融資公司你管不到融資公司亂象普遍存在在臺灣社會從20多年前的卡債那時候還是銀行作亂現在銀行不敢了銀行管得很嚴今晚會管得很好但是融資註定公司用另外一種形式在做一樣的事情而這個事情滿有人管"},{"start":7580.02,"end":7595.32,"text":"三位我想今天大家可能都是業務單位啦我重點還是中央政府的政策方向所以另外最後一個融資公司打廣告誰管廣告不實誰管有沒有人管經濟部管不管得了"},{"start":7596.772,"end":7597.032,"text":"李慧琼"},{"start":7615.374,"end":7616.715,"text":"司法及法制委員"},{"start":7641.486,"end":7644.168,"text":"謝謝黃委員、謝謝次長、副署長還有祖密。我們現在休息五分鐘讓大家去休息一下"},{"start":7670.833,"end":7675.141,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8215.064,"end":8218.787,"text":"現在繼續開會 現在有請郭國文委員發言謝謝主席 有請我們法務部次長 請黃次長謝謝"},{"start":8235.356,"end":8252.676,"text":"市長,我們現在是一個低利的社會,資金氾濫,低到什麼程度?之所以會提出這一個修正草案的主要原因,就是說我們看到中租抵合三大融資公司。這三大融資公司,我們根據它2023年的財務報表當中,"},{"start":8256.34,"end":8284.476,"text":"很清楚的他資金的成本非常的低總共三大融資公司跟銀行的往來大概將近有3000億之多擔保銀行的借款最低只有1.63%然後無擔保的銀行這個借貸是1.15%這是公佈在財報裡頭的所以他資金成本這麼低的情況底下對照這個個案這個案的部分以這個手機貸的部分我們換算起來"},{"start":8285.396,"end":8296.025,"text":"大概26%所以這個是超級暴力啊所以說這個不是一個單純的一個獲利行為而已這簡直是"},{"start":8298.524,"end":8298.684,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":8320.526,"end":8343.18,"text":"所以也因爲如此有一些委員提出要有一個融資公司的專法但是要立一個專法曠日廢死因此我們用單條條文的一個修正案然後當我們提出這個修正案的時候我們看到鍾朱迪和他對外講說他澄清說沒有沒有沒有他們的車貸就3到12%之間"},{"start":8346.382,"end":8373.181,"text":"那也沒有所謂的這一個違約金阿巧立名目阿那就代表對他們沒有影響阿最大的融資公司沒有影響那你這個法通過怎麼會有什麼問題呢我聽說據聞阿法務部有意見阿法務部的意見一個意見是屬於定義上說阿這些規費啦行政規費管理費啦違約金阿不屬利息的定義嘛是不是"},{"start":8374.11,"end":8375.29,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8394.949,"end":8415.502,"text":"那我要試問一下次長啊那16%有沒有就乾脆把它調回來12%就好啦再往下調嘛就可以啦這才可以解決他的問題嘛你如果容許他外加不讓他內涵的話那你如果讓他外加在外面那不如就是把這個標準就降回12為什麼提出12的說法你知道嗎"},{"start":8416.658,"end":8431.678,"text":"二千年的時候那時候的修正利率的時候從原來的20%降到16%最初的草案是要降到12%也是貴部有所保留誰互相折衝就變成16%的"},{"start":8434.121,"end":8434.642,"text":"民法第二百零五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":8450.422,"end":8478.601,"text":"不是只有我們現在看到我們認為巧立明目的部分還會有很多的商業行為除了他另外有特別法規定不然的話呢都會適用到我們這一條所以當初關於利率的討論我們是有這個發函的因為我們算是民法主管機關但是對於各行各業的衝擊我們並沒有辦法單獨做決定所以我們有發函給所有相關的單位然後呢中整大家意見之後才定在這個16%"},{"start":8481.163,"end":8502.811,"text":"這次的修法因為它有一個蠻強的法律效果就是說只要是所謂的費用或是我們有立的這些名詞甚至還有所謂的相關費用這個比較概括的概念都要來計算納入歷期上限這樣的規定所以它其實影響成蠻大的這個裡面的費用的範圍"},{"start":8503.951,"end":8518.946,"text":"有我們現在想要制約的這些巧立明末部分但是也會有合法的交易的過程中所產生的比如說公正的費用或者是這個匯費或等等的這些部分要不要來把它納入或是我們可以用什麼方式去排除"},{"start":8519.466,"end":8519.486,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":8544.633,"end":8551.615,"text":"法律有一個通用的原則我大概可以理解你剛剛的說明但是你剛剛提到的部分說巧立名目的各項項目當中你認為有些東西可以納入有些東西沒有納入是不是"},{"start":8569.701,"end":8589.334,"text":"主要是違約金這一項應該這樣講我們討論的時候其實也有提到就是說違約金假設它是巧立明目的違約金事實上它根本就不是屬於法律上違約金的性質的我們也可以透過法院的認定用206條來把它排除但是"},{"start":8590.609,"end":8607.047,"text":"假設他是我們民法所規定的違約金他是在債務不履行之後才會產生而且他有損壞賠償預定額或懲罰性違約金兩種更重要的是法院對於這種違約金我們民法有第二百五十二條規定說他可以予以作檢"},{"start":8608.248,"end":8637.104,"text":"那我們如果直接把它定在205條這個第二項裡面那有可能跟252條的適用的關係這個是不是會限縮到法院對於這個違約金佐檢的這個權利的行使事實上還需要再討論所以我們是建議說違約金可以不一定要把它放在這個歷史這個名詞裡面但是把它排除之外那哪些可以我們有些像我們剛剛講的這些實質跟形式的這個認定"},{"start":8638.264,"end":8654.49,"text":"我們會在立法旅遊裡面來作為說明我們是建議這樣所以說你是要積極促成你不是反對那你正在釐清哪些可以內涵哪些應該是外加排除的那麻煩你把這個內涵跟外加的項目讓我知道一下"},{"start":8654.93,"end":8683.127,"text":"我來核對一下實際的狀況那到底這個條款如果通過之後是不是有無約束的可能這是第一啦第二部分你就慎思一下啦因為當年的版本2000年的版本老實講以現在的低利益社會來看的話就是12%啦當初也是你們去問過利害關係人的結果才喬他變成是16%嘛這有沒有條件和空間也請你回去好好思考一下好不好那我們再來研議謝謝市長"},{"start":8685.127,"end":8691.152,"text":"好 謝謝國委員 謝謝次長接下來請陳培鈺委員陳培鈺陳培鈺委員不在請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席 有請次長有請黃次長委員好"},{"start":8712.766,"end":8733.141,"text":"市長好,詐騙洗錢猖獗嚴肅的掃蕩我覺得這是政府應該有的立場只是說在整個實際的實踐上面的表現我必須要老實講讓非常多的國人非常非常的失望特別是針對詐騙洗錢的首腦跟大戶"},{"start":8736.683,"end":8756.881,"text":"當然在整個掃蕩的過程當中我們尊重檢察官他在個案犯罪的偵辦指揮但是有一些是比較大的可能會牽涉到整個法務部政策面向的今天要來請教一下市長第一個我們為了防止"},{"start":8758.222,"end":8775.609,"text":"有重大犯罪嫌疑的人他可能會跑掉所以我們在入出國及移民法第64條規定第一項的第五款說他要出去的時候有事實主任當事人有下列情況之一可以暫時留置進行調查"},{"start":8776.309,"end":8789.69,"text":"其中第五款的規定應按經司法或軍法機關通治留置我下一個問題通治留置的時候需不需要放G票在海關"},{"start":8791.527,"end":8791.747,"text":"來 我們來看一下齁"},{"start":8813.553,"end":8834.791,"text":"新北地檢署通知移民署禁止出國及暫時留置的公文上面註明入出國暫時留置的時候需要減負G票第一年的銀本以G體等強制處分作為移民法六十四條第一項第五款暫時留置的法律依據新北地檢署這樣的法律見解同不同意"},{"start":8836.111,"end":8856.584,"text":"應該不是這樣子那是怎麼樣請說明應該是委員在螢幕上所顯示的本部的意見是說如果是依照剛才的條文來進行暫時留置的時候是不需要拘票的這會牽涉到一個非常直接的問題因為當初新北地檢署他們要求要放一個拘票在海關"},{"start":8857.785,"end":8885.024,"text":"有沒有放G票的影本在海關有放G票的影本在海關但是放了G票的影本在海關以後發生了什麼事情發生了人到海關的時候還是把他放了還是把他放了讓當初所簽發的那張G票毫無意義你簽發G票就是不讓他出去嘛人準備要走的時候去執行G票嘛"},{"start":8886.363,"end":8913.701,"text":"但結果現實上洗錢大戶到海關的時候人還是放走了這兩個層次的問題一個層次的問題是G票它的時效可以有多長也就是我簽一張G票出去簽一張G票出去我不用健行不經合法傳話無證當留不到場我就直接可以用強制處分把人帶走簽一張G票它的效期有多長"},{"start":8916.168,"end":8937.601,"text":"應該沒有明文的規定沒有明文的規定那法務部在政策上面認為一張G票的效期不應該超過多久這樣才會符合有關於憲法人身自由保障的意旨還是法務部的立場也認為說不需要有時效G票可以一年可以一個月可以五年"},{"start":8939.36,"end":8939.5,"text":"司法委員"},{"start":8956.255,"end":8963.5,"text":"所以我想我們未來在法律上要不要明文規定相關的條件要件準則我們回去再來研議"},{"start":8986.415,"end":9012.552,"text":"那個對於整個G票強制處分的效力對人身自由的侵害是非常大的那也正是因為這個樣子所以之前我剛剛在講的把洗錢大戶放走明明就放G票到海關了結果人還是讓他跑了人還是讓他跑了這件事情在責任上面的追究我之前不斷的請教新北地檢署"},{"start":9013.926,"end":9036.406,"text":"說你們有沒有重犯為師的行政調查什麼時候要結束然後我到3月的時候新北地檢署公開講他沒有辦法提供行政調查的結果這件事情從發生到現在已經一年多了已經一年多了我上一次去質詢部長的時候部長說會督導會了解目前督導了解的情況如何"},{"start":9038.034,"end":9055.94,"text":"這個我們有請高檢署重新再做調查目前還在調查是重新做調查還是把要新北把行政調查報告交出來這兩回事來我回去給你看新北地檢署整整拖了一年多用各式各樣的理由說他們還在做行政調查"},{"start":9057.216,"end":9071.873,"text":"我是覺得非常匪夷所思啦非常的匪夷所思啊連效率很慢的監察院都調查出來了結果我們的新北地檢署的效率啊比監察院還要差比監察院還要差的結果我上次"},{"start":9073.09,"end":9097.099,"text":"問了部長部長說他要去了解所以你們今天的答案是什麼今天的答案是新北地檢根本沒有做行政調查所以要高檢署重新調查嗎他們也是交給新北地檢在調查當中所以還需要多久我們會盡快來促請盡快是多久這太扯了吧今天如果事情只發生一個月我要他交行政調查報告出來對他們不公平嘛"},{"start":9098.12,"end":9107.253,"text":"已經搞了一年多欸搞了一年多欸這樣的效率市長你滿意嗎我們還是會再初請他們趕快把這個新增價提清"},{"start":9108.263,"end":9136.449,"text":"還需要多久還是我們隔了半年以後還要問相同的問題我們會盡快來處清他們好下一個法務部網路流量記錄這牽涉到了有關於詐欺犯罪我們要有效的去偵查不管是詐欺犯罪重大的犯罪我們需要去查IP的位置等等的網路流量記錄在立法的政策上面我們是支持的但我看到法務部回的函說"},{"start":9138.53,"end":9153.798,"text":"建制的費用超過上百億我看了非常的正經啊所以我上次請教部長說你們那個一百億的基準跟三大業者開會的資料怎麼收費的他說一個禮拜之內要提供我到今天還沒有收到"},{"start":9155.14,"end":9170.49,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分在行政院內跨部會討論的時候是由警政署來負責評估調查局是負責協助而已我們有含請警政署提供相關的明細但他們一直都還沒有提供"},{"start":9171.791,"end":9194.472,"text":"所以在怠惰是內政部嘛但請市長回去轉告部長做承諾的人是他請他趕快協調把東西交出來要不然我們是希望7月16號以前要完成立法但如果這些基礎資料沒有掌握的話我們就匆匆完成立法的話恐怕不負責任嘛"},{"start":9195.077,"end":9195.858,"text":"因為某個程度上我們一點頭過了上百億喔"},{"start":9204.668,"end":9210.834,"text":"我希望法務部在政策上面要責成我們的高檢署甚至有必要的話跟我們的檢察總長"},{"start":9228.411,"end":9248.732,"text":"相互的協調要徹底的掃蕩這種犯罪徹底掃蕩什麼犯罪我們第一線的軍人調查員他們需要用的防彈背心來我把它列舉一下這個是光過去這幾年曾經發生過的弊案"},{"start":9251.109,"end":9263.921,"text":"抗彈的纖維部因為利潤非常的高啊利潤非常的高裡面有一堆不肖的業者已經形成了一個集團了從2017年2018年2019年2020年2021年甚至到現在2024年的今天"},{"start":9271.445,"end":9294.802,"text":"2024年的今天這個犯罪集團針對攸關我們軍人安全第一線執法人員安全防彈背心抗彈纖維部弊端一堆啊弊端一堆現在我這個喔是只有把它列出來已經成為公開資訊了年年設斃啊我們進一步的去看"},{"start":9296.711,"end":9309.256,"text":"從之前現在有被判刑確定的一位公衛公司的負責人叫做楊春海當然還有其他的共犯牽涉其中用其他的人頭公司微標的微標偽造"},{"start":9312.063,"end":9332.991,"text":"產地證明的偽造產地證明各式各樣的弊案各式各樣的弊案到現在都還是現在進行式都還是現在進行式針對這一種持續性的有組織的有計畫性的犯罪有計畫性的犯罪因為牽涉到了我們第一線"},{"start":9334.051,"end":9363.111,"text":"第一線有很多官兵弟兄他們的安全因此這件事情我希望法務部跟高檢署協調有必要甚至跟最高檢察署協調針對針對這樣一個有計劃有組織在嚴重影響我們國軍安全的弊案必須要徹查不要因為牽涉到的廠商後台很硬"},{"start":9364.312,"end":9365.072,"text":"希望是這樣啦 我相信啦"},{"start":9385.27,"end":9409.873,"text":"我相信我也希望是這個樣子但今天我是一個善意的提醒跟次長講完了以後法務部啊可以回去清查我剛剛所講的那些案子有一些是公共工程委員會抓到弊端的停權的不給錢的結果我們相關的不管是微標的還是偽造變造文件的"},{"start":9411.192,"end":9433.231,"text":"關於案件現在拖延了非常久我做了完整的表給法務部做參考今天是剛開始因為我一定給你們時間做準備那下一次部長來的時候我會深入的針對在整個犯罪集團的掃蕩上面是不是有認真的徹查跟偵辦來請教部長謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":9437.174,"end":9455.449,"text":"謝謝黃委員 謝謝黃次長接下來擁請翁曉琳委員 翁曉琳 翁曉琳委員不在請吳思瑤委員發言謝謝主席 有請次長好 請黃次長委員好"},{"start":9460.645,"end":9484.587,"text":"市長我們過去是立法院同事過去就對於您的法學專業非常的敬仰那很期待跟您的對話民進黨團是優先提出國會擴權法案的第一個釋憲案的憲法機關那我們也昨天收到了7月10號憲法法庭就即將來召開那庭期已定"},{"start":9485.253,"end":9510.873,"text":"那也非常感謝憲法法庭快速的在我們送出案件的第三天6月28就已經受理所以從受理然後到停期憲法法庭開會的停期已定我們都可以認定整個大法官也非常審慎快速的來對於國會擴權法案要來做出法規範的這個憲法法庭的審議那非常遺憾今天上午在樓下的交通委員會"},{"start":9512.079,"end":9536.57,"text":"那有四個大違法他們硬要來大幹一場在空窗期就是成立了靜電室的這個調查小組而這個調查小組已經鬧了三包第一個是原本交通委員會3月11就成立一個調閱小組第二個就是今天陳雪生沒有經過司法法制委員會的同意自己把我們"},{"start":9538.4,"end":9555.75,"text":"這個叫聯席進去了然後呢我說他有四個違反第一個他違反立法院各委員會組織法13條你如果要進行聯席委員會你要經過院會的交付或者是由召委來提請院會來決定他都沒有陳雪生召委在主持的時候他有說對我沒有可是他是要硬幹"},{"start":9558.476,"end":9585.257,"text":"第二（他也違反現在雖然是二法擴權的法案但是現行通過的立法院職權刑事法46之二條也很清楚的說偵查中的案件不宜來進行調查嘛所以違反自己剛通過的法律當然第三個大違反就是我認為他完全不尊重鍾佳濱、昭偉不尊重我們司法法制委員會昭偉他好像沒有問過您嘛對不對都沒有嗎"},{"start":9586.138,"end":9592.276,"text":"所以我是司法法制委員會的委員我還覺得怪為什麼把我們聯席進去沒有通知我們沒有告知我們"},{"start":9593.598,"end":9617.834,"text":"原來是為了讓我們黃國昌總召長期關心禁電室長期鎖定禁電室以查閉之名來進行政治肅殺的手段所以硬要把司法法制聯席進去您過去也在立法院如果跟媒體相關要聯席會繳到司法法制不是不行那有點怪"},{"start":9618.875,"end":9640.502,"text":"公平會經濟委員會是不是要聯席?教育文化委員會文化部跟這個NCC的相關長理內容的部分也有相關那為什麼不是聯席教育文化委員會跟經濟委員會獨選司法法制委員會就是天選之人天選之案就是先設建在畫吧讓我們的黃國昌總召可以進入這個調查委員會來"},{"start":9642.823,"end":9664.412,"text":"進行他所要的查閉或調查所以對於這樣的一個處理我是認為在大法官的釋憲或是暫時處分還沒有做出裁定之前立法院都應當是自治的我想次長同意我的觀點嗎我們尊重這個立法院的執權的行使那也尊重委員的意見"},{"start":9665.026,"end":9670.048,"text":"請問您對於大法官的回避的看法是什麼?我想應該依照憲法訴訟法相關的規定來進行那這個是由這個司法院主席管理如果說"},{"start":9692.52,"end":9710.134,"text":"以國民黨的邏輯只要是民進黨執政時期所提名的大法官就是綠油油的話那完全無視於大法官的法學專業他們獨立運作是超出政黨之外陳水扁的任期大法官所釋憲做出135個案子"},{"start":9712.686,"end":9738.526,"text":"馬英九的時期有95個釋憲案蔡英文總統8年任內做出76個釋憲案如果依國民黨的邏輯這些都是因迴避而未迴避所以就完全不通下一頁那您剛說的大法官的迴避條款您要不要針對憲法訴訟法第9條第10條也就是憲法訴訟法第二節整個對於大法官的迴避來分享一下您的觀點好嗎"},{"start":9739.927,"end":9758.366,"text":"我想這個迴避的條款是基本上基於可能的利益衝突或是職務的衝突所以說第九條是關於自行迴避的第十條是關於這個申請迴避的那申請迴避的話也需要有申請人來向憲法法庭來做申請"},{"start":9759.267,"end":9786.815,"text":"那我想這些規定都跟我們一般在司法案件裡面的迴避的規定的精神是類同的一致的所以已經有清楚的規範對於大法官的對於人對於事對於案件的迴避如果現在這野黨要無限上綱把還未進入憲法法庭審議的釋憲案就把它推為導向他可能做出某些可能的一個裁決我認為這是對於憲法不敬"},{"start":9788.856,"end":9808.001,"text":"對於大法官不敬那下一頁也是要就交於您喔我們黃國昌委員一直說擴權的釋憲案在憲法法庭一定要有言辭辯論是這樣嗎下一頁我想您對於憲法法庭對於司法院的運作當然你現在是法務部的次長那今天是跟您做一下討論"},{"start":9809.221,"end":9828.985,"text":"我認為任何委員再大都不要凌駕大法官以憲法訴訟法25條很清楚的規定在第五章第六章明定的案件判決應當要有言辭辯論除了第五章第六章的案件以外判決得不經言辭辯論換言之黃國昌委員說"},{"start":9834.087,"end":9850.283,"text":"國會擴權法案的審議一定要有言辭辯論我們沒有預設立場我們尊重大法官的決定但是就法條論法條您comments一下吧我想這個法條委員已經解釋得非常清楚了"},{"start":9854.709,"end":9862.078,"text":"憲法法庭在憲法輸送法施行之後也是朝向盡可能廣納各方意見以舉行延遲辯論的方式為原則"},{"start":9868.846,"end":9894.235,"text":"當然憲法出文法有明定因行延遲辯論的案件跟得不經延遲辯論來審理的案件因為憲法法庭所處理的大概都是法律問題一回多所以像我們最高法院其實也是得行延遲辯論但是也不見得每個案子都一定要通過延遲辯論的方式來做這個是一個法理"},{"start":9895.515,"end":9921.84,"text":"我們看到司法法院現在也已經訂了這個庭期我想這個應該沒有相關的爭議我相信大法官這個憲法法庭會依照憲法跟相關法律的規定奪利來行使之處我在這裡就交於您就是我認為不管是法務部主管的這個檢查系統或是司法院主管的法院系統或者是大法官憲法法庭都應當避免用政治立場去干預"},{"start":9922.9,"end":9942.106,"text":"避免去對大法官或是各級的法官檢察官們下指導其。這是從政者應當要自制、要非常清楚的一個奉祭。憲法機關本於互相平等尊重、平等相為的原則。下一頁。但同樣的也要就教於您喔。您是法學專業。"},{"start":9944.725,"end":9965.591,"text":"這週立法院最受關注的是選罷法的修法國民黨智庫昨天說實體從舊程序從新所以提高了罷免的門檻修法如果通過的話本屆就可以開始試用甚至現在已經進行中的謝國良的案子就可以試用請問法務部您這邊的法律見解如何"},{"start":9966.851,"end":9967.011,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9990.896,"end":9991.036,"text":"主席"},{"start":10015.948,"end":10016.128,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":10033.764,"end":10034.164,"text":"主席"},{"start":10063.944,"end":10067.967,"text":"提案的委員都是要保障消費者從修法來下手下頁"},{"start":10082.216,"end":10111.255,"text":"那當然要杜絕融資公司巧立明目規避民法利率上限幾位委員不管是開記者會下一頁或是提出具體的修法那在2020年我們已經修法條降了從20%降到16%就是為了保障經濟弱勢者但是對於融資公司透過另外的方式各類的規費手續費來超過這個法定利率的漏洞這件事情確實需要去解決下一頁"},{"start":10112.236,"end":10123.78,"text":"所以委員提案了那不好意思我剛剛因為沒有在會議上我有另外的這個質詢那法務部對於如果你們的法務部的意見是認為還要再周延討論但如果不修這個法有什麼樣有效的手段可以來歸"},{"start":10131.448,"end":10133.87,"text":"被免杜絕如果不修法。"},{"start":10147.58,"end":10173.407,"text":"另外配套措施還是應該要加強對於這些金融說準金融的行為來做這個監理強化他的監理因為剛剛稍早我們的召委有提示的很多具體的案例這個其實都未必直接跟利息有關因為他會巧立各種名目甚至用不同的契約形態甚至是這個複合的契約的形態同時跟很多的行為人都發生關係"},{"start":10174.207,"end":10174.947,"text":"司法及法制委員"},{"start":10202.194,"end":10228.619,"text":"因為金管會對於融資業現在是適用公司法所以是經濟部在主管管轄所以確實在整個對於融資業的監理強度是不是足夠這本身是本期比較關切的核心下一頁我們來看看國際我去彙整出這個也是這個行政院消保處提供的資料還有外交部我去綜整出來的"},{"start":10230.76,"end":10255.836,"text":"國際多數的金融相關主管機關來管轄融資公司這一種的是多數日本的金融廳韓國金融管理委員會到新加坡加拿大法國盧森堡合國德國英國澳洲都是由金融監理機關來強化對於融資公司的監理事項那當然另外一類像美國義大利南非歐盟他是用央行或是其他機關來作為主理下一頁"},{"start":10256.616,"end":10280.19,"text":"所以我個人是認為如果要更去全面的去解決融資公司很多他巧立名目其他的作為的話當然修法是一個可以思考的但是對於融資公司管理是用專法或是在現行的法規裡頭用一個專章更明確的從源頭來管制這是我的觀點啦就教於次長"},{"start":10281.11,"end":10281.49,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":10302.896,"end":10325.731,"text":"這個不是修民法的問題不是我是說剛剛那個如果這個節目的話因為我們也在內部跟相關的專家學者來進行討論過了那麼我也把我們目前的這個方向跟委員所提的方向一致類似的方向來函詢各該主管機關就各行各業的意見那等他們回來之後我們會重整看是不是能夠提出一個完整的這個規定"},{"start":10326.331,"end":10339.885,"text":"那我理解,我們後續希望有更長期的時間來彙具更高的共識。謝謝次長,謝謝交委,謝謝。好,謝謝委員,謝謝黃次長。好,目前所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束。"},{"start":10348.312,"end":10369.744,"text":"委員質詢時,要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關競速送交個別委員及本會。委員林思明、翁曉琳所提書面質詢,均列入紀錄刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。本次會議進行到此,議程討論事項,另定其審查。現在散會,謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"16060","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16060","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dae5f17226264b1aa58d85e2d08749d244f24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Okonjo-Iweala在去年12月21日也曾經致函我方向我國能夠儘早在WTO第13屆部長會議之前來完成協定的國內批准程序,儘速存放接受書。"},{"start":2145.626,"end":2159.934,"text":"那有關於希望能夠完成這個國內程序之後的預期效益跟各位說明那這個案子我國如果能夠儘速完成國內的審議程序將有助於我國接軌海洋資源的永續經營國際趨勢以及與相關的國際組織及其他WTO會員來深化約議題的合作"},{"start":2166.738,"end":2187.315,"text":"落實保育漁業資源的目標。另外,如果能夠完成國內的審議程序,當然也可以達成了宣傳的效益,有助於我國建立支持環境保育的正面形象。與關於本案的結語是,鑒於我國是漁業大國,如果本案能夠盡速完成國內程序,當然有助於我們在WTO的場域及國際社會。"},{"start":2188.636,"end":2212.926,"text":"建立我國支持環境保育的正面形象而我國作為WTO負責任的會員之一也希望能夠在完成國內程序之後儘速完成存放那麼外交部將繼續配合農業部推動辦理本案的後續事宜那繼續另外再就中華民國臺灣政府部分停止中華民國臺灣與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定"},{"start":2214.311,"end":2230.531,"text":"實行文書、進行報告並被質詢。緊究相關的案情,跟各位說明如下。第一個是有關於相關的背景。我國、薩爾瓦多以及宏都拉斯三方共同簽署了《台薩宏自由貿易協定》,那是在97年的時候正式生效。107年8月21號,"},{"start":2233.374,"end":2261.349,"text":"臺薩斷交,薩國政府發布自108年3月15日起廢除臺薩之間的FTA行政命令但是因為薩國國內糖業協會向最高法院提出違憲訴願而暫緩執行最後經過薩國的憲法法庭在111年11月7日判決認定廢除臺薩FTA的行政命令已屬完備所以從該日起我國出口薩國的產品停止適用臺薩FTA的優惠關稅"},{"start":2262.809,"end":2274.575,"text":"本案經過經濟部、財政部以及外交部等相關機關進行跨部會商來橫著我商的權益以及國際情勢決議停止實行台薩FTA並且報請行政院合併從112年5月15日停止實行接下來是由我駐世界貿易組織代表團在112年4月6日及11日"},{"start":2288.601,"end":2303.195,"text":"分別正式支會薩爾瓦多及宏都拉斯兩國的代表團並且複製WTO秘書處,完成對外的通知程序。關於本案的國內程序部分,跟各位說明如下。之前由經濟部、財政部及外交部"},{"start":2303.815,"end":2316.593,"text":"於112年5月5日,會嫌報請行政院合轉立法院審議。審決於同年5月11日,函請大院審議。大院在5月26日曾經一路通過,但是最後沒有完成議決。依據《立法院職權刑事法》第13條規定,"},{"start":2318.956,"end":2332.723,"text":"本案因為也藉其不續審,所以經濟部、財政部以及外交部在本屆立法委員重新上任之後,重新報請行政院和轉大院來審議。如果這個案子能夠審議通過,後續將由行政院來轉成總統檢查並公佈完備我們國內程序。相關的影響因應是,近年來臺薩雙邊貿易量占我國對外貿易總額僅僅只有大約0.01%,停止施行跟薩爾瓦多間的FTA對我國整體"},{"start":2348.69,"end":2374.638,"text":"貿易影響有限,我國從薩國主要的進口項目也都有替代的來源,本部將持續與經濟部等相關機關共同協助國內的業者改向我友邦或其他理念相近國家進行採購。 bicy,就我國與宏都拉斯共和國從112年12月6日終止《中華民國（臺灣與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定案》的後續報告。"},{"start":2375.738,"end":2393.625,"text":"這個案子的背景跟薩爾瓦多有點類似的簡單再複述如下我國薩爾瓦多及宏都拉斯三方共同簽署的臺薩宏自由貿易協定是97年生效那112年的3月26日我國與宏都拉斯終止外交關係之後那宏國駐世界貿易組織代表團是在同年的6月9號將"},{"start":2395.246,"end":2417.59,"text":"紅都拉斯政府當時的情況是致函給我們的經濟部王美花部長然後轉致我駐WTO代表團告稱紅國依據一中原則退出臺薩紅自由貿易協定並且在180天後生效那介於上街的退出的通知函內容涉及扭曲我國主權地位外交部曾經在同年6月16日發布聲明給予播置"},{"start":2421.311,"end":2439.702,"text":"經濟部是在112.6月12日邀請相關機關召開宏都拉斯通知終止臺紅FTA的因應會議。在7月26日由經濟部、財政部及外交部會前函報行政院建議終止臺紅FTA。終止日期依據該協定第18.05條退出條款規定,除締約國另有協議外,退出應與締約國一方通知。"},{"start":2445.485,"end":2462.091,"text":"第二國他方的180天之後向下所以依據宏國通知的日期112年6月9號次日期起算180天終止日期為112年12月6日那本案在行政院和定之後已經由我駐WTO代表團"},{"start":2463.251,"end":2480.049,"text":"直接通知WTO秘書處並且複製宏國駐WTO代表團。國內程序部分也跟上次我們之前所通報有關於薩爾瓦多的類似就不再贅述。最後有關影響因應的部分也依據經濟部的統計資料111年及112年臺澳雙邊貿易額佔我對外貿易"},{"start":2485.354,"end":2494.119,"text":"總額只佔0.02%,所以臺澳FTA自生效以來,宏國的產品對我出口成長是有達4.6倍,宏羅拉斯是雙邊貿易的受益方,那終止FTA對我們的貿易及產業的影響有限。為了降低FTA終止後對我國廠商的影響,主要是白蝦的進口廠商,外交部也持續跟經濟部等相關機關共同協助業者轉向其他友邦及聯合相關國家採購,進行多元佈局國際市場。"},{"start":2514.809,"end":2537.517,"text":"以上三案,送請外交、國防及經濟委員會的聯席審查,懇請各位委員支持,儘早完成國內法制程序。也再次感謝兩國委員會的各位委員對本部的支持以及指教。謝謝。好,謝謝陳立國次長。我們接下來進行報告的是農業部黃政務次長。請就第一案進行報告。"},{"start":2548.207,"end":2570.475,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家早今天就馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書以及其附件漁業補貼協定案進行報告關於在世界貿易組織補貼談判之相關歷程的部分與外交部的報告雷同所以這邊我們僅略過請各位翻開次頁在這個"},{"start":2571.915,"end":2596.774,"text":"次頁三、WTO漁業補貼協定的主要內容那這個協定修正的主要內容主要針對三點對於相關補貼的禁制事項第一、會員不得從事對IUU漁撈行為或其相關活動之漁船或經營者提供或維持任何的補貼第二、會員不得針對已過於漁群之漁業或相關活動提供或維持任何補貼"},{"start":2598.856,"end":2619.418,"text":"會員補貼措施或有其他措施系為重建該漁群資源恢復到生物可持續水準,則該補貼可持續維持。第三、會員不得在無管轄海域以及沿岸國經濟海域及區域漁業管理組織管轄水域之外的公海、作業的國籍船隻提供或維持任何的補貼。"},{"start":2620.319,"end":2624.725,"text":"那針對上述的禁制行為因應漁業補貼的國內所要做的調適WTO通過漁業補貼協定規範禁止會員補貼IUU漁勞行為以及針對過於漁群之漁業"},{"start":2636.06,"end":2659.257,"text":"為打擊IUU行為系我國既定的政策而且我國長期投入海洋資源評估確保專屬海域水域的漁群資源永續故評估該協定生效對我尚無直接之影響有關禁止IUU漁撈行為之補貼打擊IUU行為系我國既定的政策從102年已公告了"},{"start":2660.818,"end":2682.808,"text":"預防、制止和消除未報告及不受規範也就是IUU補餘之國家行動計畫,配合國際七四持續跟各國共同打擊IUU的餘勞行為。我國現行法規上雖無明文禁止補貼IUU餘勞行為,但實務上已經實質的規範了禁止對IUU行為的提供補貼,例如我們在"},{"start":2683.548,"end":2709.743,"text":"漁船動力擁有優惠油價標準的第13條之一按其受處罰或處分之情形停止補助一定油量之補貼款。自願性休漁獎勵辦法第8條的第1項休漁獎勵期間如違反了漁業法或相關的遠洋漁業條例或涉有走私、偷渡、電、毒、炸魚或漁業動力擁有優惠標準第13條第1項第一款到第5款"},{"start":2710.264,"end":2717.979,"text":"所達的違規情況之一的都不予合法漁業獎勵金,已合法者應予撤銷廢紙並依法追繳。"},{"start":2719.076,"end":2746.158,"text":"二、有關禁止補貼以過於漁群為目標的這個漁撈行為,我國長期參與國際組織的這個管理,落實養護措施,共同維護公海漁業資源,並於我國專屬經濟水域內,針對各項經濟漁種進行評估,確保資源永續,那相關的工作摘要如下,第一,我國遠洋漁船主要在公海作業,受到RFM及管理,所以各"},{"start":2747.639,"end":2764.793,"text":"為了確保管轄水域的漁種資源永續,均要求各會員必須配合養護及管理措施,並提交漁獲資料供科學委員會進行資源評估,據以擬定配額。目前的各RFMO養護管理措施均有成效,有助於整體資源永續,"},{"start":2765.393,"end":2780.011,"text":"我國目前參加各洋區這RFMO,我國及遠洋漁船、公海作業的漁船都有進行RFMO的資源管理,故較無影響。第二、在沿境海漁業的部分,我國專屬經濟水域的漁獲量多樣性高,經濟物種高達了500多種,作業漁法多樣。"},{"start":2784.696,"end":2799.781,"text":"目前有脫網、赤網、燈火、籠聚等漁館以明文定定禁漁區、禁漁渠以另外、青森、寶石珊瑚、吻搖、飛魚卵、螃蟹、鎖管等主要經濟漁種占我們國沿近海總漁獲約75%"},{"start":2801.662,"end":2825.143,"text":"也定有禁漁區跟禁漁渠此外針對寶石、珊瑚、吻瑤以及飛魚卵定定的總容許量TAC另外金沙、大白沙、巨口沙等平為物種皆以明文禁補各項的措施均有助於資源再生永續利用確保漁群不受過於那後續的這個部分於完成國內審議程序後"},{"start":2826.464,"end":2833.446,"text":"禁述存放我國接受書,彰顯我國對保護海洋漁業之決心。第二、辦理協定國內法法相關作業,盤點並檢視相關法規及計劃。倘協定與規範存有落差,將啟動修訂程序,於協定生效之前完成修法的工作。其他漁業補貼議題談判雖位於"},{"start":2849.251,"end":2854.876,"text":"一百一十三年二月WTO第十三屆的部長會議達成構思本部仍將持續關注、參與並談判維護我國產業權益及政策空間節與WTO通過漁業補貼協定要求會員落實打擊IUU餘撈行為並減少過於資源的持續利用"},{"start":2868.846,"end":2874.868,"text":"我國為海洋國家必當參與該項協定與各會員國共同維護海洋資源及產業此外,為兼顧我國漁業發展及符合國際規範我國持續強化漁業管理以及賀止IUU行為積極參與RFMO及國際合作並爭取漁獲配額並持續推動漁船限件、控制漁船數量執行船閥收購處理計畫以調整產業結構"},{"start":2895.934,"end":2906.897,"text":"在資源養護方面對我國沿境海主要漁獲進行長期資源調查以瞭解我國資源並劃定淨漁區及獎勵休漁計畫讓資源有休息養生之機會未來將在兼顧漁民生計、漁業永續發展及國際規範下持續輔導產業配合相關漁業的資源與養護的這個工作確保產業永續經營感謝委員長期以來針對農漁業部門以及政策的重視與支持以上報告"},{"start":2925.558,"end":2933.634,"text":"好,謝謝黃市長請回。我們接下來請經濟部陳正琦政務次長就第二案、第三案進行報告。"},{"start":2939.571,"end":2963.304,"text":"主席、各位委員先進。承蒙貴委員會邀請就中華民國（臺灣（政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣（與薩爾瓦多共和國及宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書以及我國與宏都拉斯共和國堅致112年12月6日終止中華民國（臺灣（與薩爾瓦多共和國及宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定"},{"start":2964.324,"end":2979.396,"text":"下稱臺薩洪FTA等二案進行報告,寄請各位委員先進不定視角。第一部分有關背景說明部分,因為與外交部的報告大致相同,我直接報告影響評估。第一個,對我國整體貿易的影響有限,"},{"start":2980.117,"end":2985.482,"text":"台薩雙邊貿易情形在台薩間的FTA於97年3月1日生效,雙邊貿易額從96年到112年成長24%,達到1億400萬美元。薩國對我出口成長27%,我國對薩國出口成長23%。"},{"start":2998.934,"end":3022.95,"text":"一百一十二年,臺薩雙邊貿易佔我國對外貿易總額之百分之零點零一。我國自薩國主要進口蔗糖、電容器、鋼鐵廢料、廢棉及咖啡等,都有其他替代性進口來源。我國對薩國主要出口塑化原料、機動車輛零附件、飲料等。我國與薩國間停止施行FTA對我整體貿易影響有限。"},{"start":3023.953,"end":3035.74,"text":"第二、臺紅雙邊貿易情形臺紅兼FTA於97年7月15日生效,雙邊貿易額自96年到112年成長1.85倍,達到1億8800萬美元。紅國對我出口成長超過4倍,我國對紅國出口則成長65%,我國對紅國貿易逆差近4600萬美元,紅國為這個FTA的主要受益方。"},{"start":3050.689,"end":3074.132,"text":"一百一十二年,臺紅雙邊貿易僅佔我國對外貿易總額的百分之零點零二。我國自宏國主要進口冷凍蝦、蔗糖、冷凍龍蝦、咖啡及鋁廢料等,都有其他替代性進口來源。我國對宏國主要出口塑化原料、紡織品、飲料、機動車輛零附件、風扇等,臺紅宗旨FTA對我整體貿易影響有限。"},{"start":3074.873,"end":3099.813,"text":"第二、薩爾瓦多及紅國臺商的營運不受影響。節至113年5月底,我國對薩爾瓦多投資約5,651萬美元,主要投資項目為紡織成衣業。薩爾瓦多對我國投資約8.6萬美元,主要投資為批發零售業及技術服務業。雙方投資業者之營運都不受到臺薩堅停止施行FTA的影響。另、節至113年5月底,"},{"start":3101.494,"end":3110.763,"text":"我國對宏國投資約2,504萬美元,主要投資項目為紡織成衣業,宏國對我國投資約205萬美元,主要投資項目為專業、科學及技術服務業,雙方投資業者之營運也不受到彩虹間終止FTA之影響。"},{"start":3121.038,"end":3127.887,"text":"在結語部分為持續協助業者開拓商機本部委託外貿協會舉辦購洽談媒合會並籌辦中南美洲拓銷團 巴拿米爾"},{"start":3136.058,"end":3164.611,"text":"巴拿馬國際商展及拉丁美洲商機日等活動,以利我業者脫銷其他市場與分散採購來源。本案是重大國際案件。從111年11月薩國偏偏廢除台薩洪FTA以及112年6月洪國通知退出該FTA後,各部會都迅速延伤相關因應措施,為完備國內法制程序,懇請各位委員支持本案完成二讀程序。以上報告,敬請各位委員指教。謝謝。"},{"start":3167.355,"end":3174.212,"text":"好,謝謝陳市長。那財政部關務署蘇副長有沒有要補充報告的?好,請。"},{"start":3182.267,"end":3197.277,"text":"主席、各位委員先進。大家好。有關貴聯席委員會今天審查我國政府部分停止臺薩宏自由貿易協定施行文書案以及我國與宏都拉斯終止臺薩宏自由貿易協定案。"},{"start":3198.998,"end":3211.489,"text":"一案那僅就財政部執掌有關的事項來提出說明那首先報告的是有關臺薩宏FTA、薩爾瓦多以及宏都拉斯兩國的優惠關稅利用率那麼薩爾瓦多112年的適用我們關稅第二欄優惠稅率的進口值大約是佔0.01%那麼宏都拉斯112年適用第二欄優惠關稅的"},{"start":3225.82,"end":3252.27,"text":"進口值大約是佔93.46%。那麼接下來報告這兩案有關財政部在官務的作業方面那麼有關薩爾瓦多的部分因為薩爾瓦多他是片面廢除FTA有重大的一個違約所以我國也自112年5月15日停止跟薩爾瓦多之間施行這個臺上FTA那所以有關本案"},{"start":3254.051,"end":3271.836,"text":"涉及優惠關稅以及關稅配合的部分,那財政部會是國內法律程序完成總統公佈以後,會令函周知相關的這個工協會來停止適用FTA。那至於我國跟宏都拉斯終止臺薩宏的FTA案呢,"},{"start":3273.496,"end":3294.792,"text":"那麼財政部已經依據海關進口稅則總則第二點之一的規定會商有關機關報請行政院合定之後在112年的12月6日公告從該日起原產自宏都拉斯的全部進口貨物停止適用第二欄稅率及其增注的相關規定另外財政部關務署也在112年12月12號發布修正臺薩宏"},{"start":3300.616,"end":3311.627,"text":"自由貿易協定進口貨物通關作業要點也周知相關的業者有關臺鴻相關的通關作業的異動部分。以上報告,謝謝。好,請回。"},{"start":3317.096,"end":3344.875,"text":"今天我們聯席審查我們巡曆時間會比較少一點請各位委員同仁把握時間今天本聯席會的委員4加2分鐘非聯席會的委員4分鐘我們10點半發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請在10點半之前提出我們會在11點左右視同仁發言情形來進行處理我們現在請第一位登記的陳廷輝委員進行詢答"},{"start":3359.394,"end":3379.503,"text":"謝謝主席。我們是不是請外交部我們的長賜,陳長賜。來,次長請。陳委員早。陳長賜早。我想最近有一個新聞,就是說尼加拉瓜他日前開始擔任我們"},{"start":3380.558,"end":3380.578,"text":"二、審"},{"start":3411.168,"end":3424.214,"text":"謝謝委員這個問題的提詢我們對於剛剛您所關切這個議題非常關注而且會嚴加防範的確因為尼加拉瓜跟我們斷交之後跟中國的關係越來越密切那我們之前在中美洲議會"},{"start":3424.974,"end":3424.994,"text":"二、審"},{"start":3446.298,"end":3468.447,"text":"首先我們要指出中美洲議會以及SICA當然它的體制規範當然有些不同那因為在SICA這裏面呢六個成員國裏面我們至少還有我們的阿瓜利馬拉及貝里斯是我們的堅定的友邦那我們希望能夠透過說因為它所有的重大議事的決定必須要經過元首峰會"},{"start":3469.127,"end":3469.147,"text":"二、審"},{"start":3492.518,"end":3506.871,"text":"剛剛常志友說就是我們在這會員國裡面基本上我們本身跟我們友邦的有兩個可是比例也算是少舉手也舉不贏人家"},{"start":3507.552,"end":3529.078,"text":"可是是以共識決為主?當然是共識決。就是說在共識當中,多數我們怎麼去掌控,這個多數我們不會受到影響。是。共識決一定是多數共識嘛。對不對?全體共識。對對。你當然是要全體共識啦。可是它是不是會受到影響?"},{"start":3530.51,"end":3549.832,"text":"基本上我們就是希望說如果有任何一個會員反對那我們現在至少也還有兩個友邦也就是說如果有任何一個反對就不會成為一個議決的一個決定我們有沒有辦法掌控他們的態度到目前為止因為是全體的共識嘛那我們只要掌控這兩個會員國"},{"start":3551.914,"end":3578.863,"text":"我們基本上只要不要變成是全體的共識,它就不會變成是一個議決嘛。是,委員這樣的解釋是對的。對,所以我們現在要解釋給我們所有臺灣人民知道。是。所以現在大家在媒體這麼一爆,大家就開始了,那是不是會,我們這樣的一個國際組織又會被影響到,可是我們掌控了這兩個會員國,我們目前有掌控住嗎?"},{"start":3579.663,"end":3586.931,"text":"當然因為他是我們堅定的友邦,然後在各項議題雙方的關係非常的密切,這個友誼是非常堅定,也會全力來協助我們。"},{"start":3588.107,"end":3615.428,"text":"我們再談另外一個議題,被騙,這個我們也知道說現在基本上中國就是用經濟開始在做一些所謂拉攏我們友邦的動作,那宏都拉斯就是一個最最最最直接的案例,所以我們也擔心做崗位有這樣的一個層次不同的一個詢問就是讓大家知道這是一個全體共識決,"},{"start":3616.969,"end":3619.293,"text":"所以我們還有兩個會員國但是我們也擔心這兩個會員國會不會因為又有所謂的中國的一個經濟的一些引誘"},{"start":3629.943,"end":3653.17,"text":"而造成他們的態度有所改變。那我們就要跟大家說,大家要看宏都拉斯的案子。這個案例太清楚了。他當時候也是因為被引誘,然後中國給他很多的糖吃,結果不知道他是包著糖衣的毒藥。現在導致因為他的蝦農沒有辦法"},{"start":3655.708,"end":3684.48,"text":" ﹗"},{"start":3684.961,"end":3710.314,"text":"這是最佳的案例所以我為什麼會用這兩個部分我們要很清楚讓我們的友邦知道我們臺灣對友邦是言出必行可是中國不是他給你的是包著糖衣的毒藥華而不實的承諾而且都是騙局像過去的一帶一路現在有多少的國家被騙了"},{"start":3711.554,"end":3729.302,"text":"數不清吧數不清嘛所以數不清的這個國家被騙然後再直接我們的友邦用了這麼多的好的條件去吸引你然後去做這樣的一個跟臺灣斷交跟中國建交的目的達成之後就開始跳票了是"},{"start":3733.246,"end":3747.622,"text":"所以現在宏都拉斯直接面臨的是中國因為的欺騙而造成產業的倒閉是的所以我們必須把這樣的案例很清楚跟我們友邦不斷的去做這樣的一個"},{"start":3749.364,"end":3765.299,"text":"讓他們瞭解讓他們看到這樣的一個這個現實的一個狀態所以我覺得這個部分是比較重要的再麻煩我們外交部大家努力辛苦我知道現在外交部的處境其實要讓大家知道"},{"start":3766.38,"end":3767.401,"text":"接下來我們進行詢答委員是鄭振淺委員"},{"start":3805.236,"end":3811.043,"text":"謝主席,我想請一下外交部陳長赤還有農業部的黃正赤。來,兩位次長請。"},{"start":3819.33,"end":3848.356,"text":"今天我們聯席其實有兩個主要的主題一個是具有一些道德高度的是針對馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定的修正議定書的審議還有它附件漁業補貼協定這個部分那麼另外一個部分就是有關於審議就是終止就是臺薩洪FTA的案子那我想說針對第二個案子的時候其實就是因為斷交所導致的後續的一個相關的一個影響那我們當然是很不喜歡審到這樣子的案子所以希望外交部加加油"},{"start":3849.076,"end":3849.096,"text":"二、審"},{"start":3867.262,"end":3888.821,"text":"據有道德高度這個馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書這個部分還有我們漁業補貼協定因為到目前為止大概164個WTO國家裡面還有超過一半以上其實還沒有把這個送到我們的秘書處裡面去那我在想說外交部這邊有沒有去理解到底原因是什麼"},{"start":3891.533,"end":3891.553,"text":"二、審"},{"start":3912.739,"end":3912.759,"text":"二、審"},{"start":3938.497,"end":3959.902,"text":"報告委員由於這個協定的這個部分它禁止補貼的部分是屬於IUU違法的這個項目還有過於的這個項目還有以及在公海作業的項目在本部漁業署的這個評估之下目前這三項的這樣的協定的修訂對我們的漁業的這個部分並沒有太直接的影響因為我們長期以來就是禁止IUU漁農協定的補貼"},{"start":3961.162,"end":3984.537,"text":"我想問,因為其實上個月,現在我們七月嘛,六月份的時候其實還有蘇澳的漁船做那個割旗棄聲的這樣的一個動作。我想說,去年到今年年中為止,到底臺灣有多少這樣子類似的個案,是在違反IUU跟過於的相關行為?漁業署這邊請各位請做個說明。"},{"start":3987.624,"end":4008.431,"text":"報告委員,上次說的這個部分的話,像這種違規的漁船,一旦涉及違規的話,那我們對於漁船擁有的補貼、漁率撤回並追繳,那所以基本上會對於這樣的一個行為予以懲處。是,那我問的其實是從去年,就是最簡單,從去年到今年上半年,總共有多少這樣子的個案?你們有沒有掌握?"},{"start":4015.216,"end":4030.273,"text":"這個部分的話,我們如果回去再統計再跟委員做答詢。因為我在想說我們做一個這樣的一個政策的一個決議的時候,我想說應該要先做有一些相關的一些評估,那我們現在到底有多少的一個"},{"start":4032.625,"end":4035.009,"text":"韓國國籍遠洋漁船目前總共有多少艘?僱用多少船員?"},{"start":4046.24,"end":4074.051,"text":"我們目前的船有一千零五十艘那僱用的船員大概是兩萬兩千多人左右兩萬兩千多人嘛那大部分是本國籍還是外國籍?絕大部分是外國籍絕大部分是外國籍嘛那我想問一個部分因為農業部他在境外僱用非我國籍船員許可及管理辦法第六條裡面他有規定說要強制遠洋漁工必須要投保醫療險、意外險還有申僱險對不對?"},{"start":4077.793,"end":4101.261,"text":"到目前為止的時候因為沒有本國的國內保險公司願意承保這樣子的一個業務造成一個很多的困擾那針對這個部分的時候我想說我們政府這邊應該要怎麼去做針對沒有保險公司要承攬就是遠洋漁工的一個保險的一個部分"},{"start":4102.585,"end":4125.755,"text":"這個部分的話事實上除了國內他沒有投保之外那目前的遠洋漁船他會尋求國外的這個的保險公司來進行投保那所以我們對於這個遠洋漁船的這個要求是沒有改變的所以目前在遠洋漁船上所聘用的這個外籍漁工的話每位都投保剛剛法律上所規定的相關保險那我們也有這個實際的做進行查核"},{"start":4128.536,"end":4141.164,"text":"因為其實我們辦公室其實在3月份的時候有邀請農業部、勞動部、金管會、保險局還有移民署、法務部跟保險工會召開了一個協調會那麼當場的時候保險局是希望說鼓勵其實我們國內的業者要購買國內核准設立保險公司經營的保單所以發生糾紛的時候才有辦法處理"},{"start":4152.971,"end":4163.158,"text":"但是問題是現在臺灣沒有保險公司願意承攬這樣的一個業務,那我們就是農業部這邊、漁業署這邊有沒有什麼樣子的一個因應的做法,我們接下來要怎麼去做?"},{"start":4169.068,"end":4192.869,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我們應該分成兩個部分第一個部分就是在我們沿境海作業的漁船那這個部分我們依照就業服務法引進的部分他本來就有勞保這些相關的規定那另外漁業組也另外協助那遠洋的部分就是他在海作業是在公海所以由漁船公司去向船東向不同的保險公司投保也包括國內也包括國外那大部分都是跟國外保險公司來投保"},{"start":4193.029,"end":4217.637,"text":"我最後補充一句就是因為我們在當時的時候漁業署這邊曾經講過說我們漁業署會進行船員訪查和勞動檢查的部分那本期是要求其實我們漁業署這邊對於外籍船員投保的情形進行一些統計跟研究所以當你們在做訪查的時候我們希望說能夠把這部分落實那後續如何做請漁業署再到本辦公室來做報告"},{"start":4218.097,"end":4220.157,"text":"二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、"},{"start":4248.537,"end":4264.31,"text":"市長好我們過去曾經在2015年的時候因為IOU的問題被歐盟列入黃單然後漁業署也就開始來加強這部分的管制經過4年的努力"},{"start":4266.032,"end":4288.949,"text":"2019年我們正式在這個歐盟正式將我們從這個黃牌名單裡面做這個移除如果我們這次能夠儘速的完成漁業補貼協定國內審議的程序然後呢儘速的這個存放這個接受書我在想就像剛剛兩位的報告所提到的確實可以建立我國支持環境保育這方面的這個形象"},{"start":4289.669,"end":4306.656,"text":"當然很多國人也可能也都在擔心就是說這個協定如果生效之後是不是對這個我國的這個相關產業是不是有影響剛剛正式你也打得很清楚就是說其實不會有影響義工本來就是有這個這方面對於違法捕撈跟過於這部分其實都有一些法則在"},{"start":4308.116,"end":4329.899,"text":"其實本席政政今天要關心的其實是另外一個議題,就是有關於就是我國漁工管理上的這個問題。那其中當然是包含了這個薪資、工時,還有生活條件的問題。那過去我國也發生很多次的這個海上的諜寫事件,其中包含了漁工這個外籍觀察議員。"},{"start":4331.1,"end":4346.965,"text":"這對我國在國際形象來講其實是非常的這個是有影響的所以我在想呢我國的漁業管勞工管理可能會比IUU受到這個國外更多的這個關注那美國勞工部在2020年跟2022年連續兩次將我國遠洋漁業漁獲列入同工與強迫勞動製品清單然後呢"},{"start":4357.529,"end":4364.135,"text":"有指出我國漁業涉及強迫勞動的這個問題那雖然說我們在這個2022年跟2023年兩度提出漁業與人權行動的計畫可是呢美國國務院在2023年的6月15號公佈的年度人口販運問題報告當中雖然是把臺灣被評定為第一級第一級可是呢美國政府還是"},{"start":4383.331,"end":4399.899,"text":"再次的強調臺灣政府機關調查人力跟這個規定的不足這樣子呢會持續對臺灣籍的遠洋船對勞力剝削的鑑別調查跟寫作工作形成這個阻礙那是不是表示說我們短期內"},{"start":4401.468,"end":4425.232,"text":"要從這個同工以強迫勞動製品清單這個黑名單裡面這個這個移除的話短期是不是有困難請問呃報告員呃有關於這個漁工勞權的這個問題的話那漁業署一直長期持續的在進行努力那有關於這個細節的部分啊今年啊漁業署署長也曾經親自到美國啊去與美方作為相關的這個會談那我們請這個署長來作為一下相關的這個補充"},{"start":4430.114,"end":4453.827,"text":"謝謝委員我們從漁業與人權整個行動計劃裡面我們有多了49個檢查人力所以我們目前大概兩年左右會對所有我們的遠洋漁船訪查過一遍那就是了解問題解決問題那美國今年二月的時候他的勞工部次長曾經到臺灣來實際了解情形那在六月的時候我也到美國去跟他們說明這些相關的努力"},{"start":4454.127,"end":4472.823,"text":"今年六月嗎?對,今年六月那美國勞工部還有這些相關的團體是相當肯定臺灣在漁業與人權方面對漁工保障的努力但是他們當然又舉出一些不足的地方包括因為人數非常的多那我們的訪查包括在國外不可能一次馬上完全做完"},{"start":4473.123,"end":4474.244,"text":"數長,您所說的這個少數個案,所以美國認同這是少數個案嗎?"},{"start":4498.82,"end":4524.574,"text":"因為我在想這個美國的這個對於勞工部他這個同工以強迫勞動製品清單其實他是一個蠻有公信力的在國際上還是很有公信力的那去年還在提醒我們我們在調查人力跟規定的這個部族可能會形成阻礙等等那我們今年6月份有去做了一份報告所以美國是接受我們的說法嗎"},{"start":4525.594,"end":4543.461,"text":"這是少數個案嗎?因為我們看了很多報導對於這個中國也好或是臺灣也好在國際上在遠洋漁業裡面我們算是在國際上是被抨擊的還蠻嚴重的一個國家所以這部分的話美國能夠接受我們的說法嗎?"},{"start":4544.921,"end":4570.268,"text":"我跟委員報告在6月15號公布的人口販運報告裡面其實裡面內容雖然擠出問題但是也肯定臺灣的努力裡面也提到說臺灣政府投入的60個調查人力相關的這些做的那我們在跟美國溝通裡面其實提到有幾個個案包括這些薪資的給付那他們也很強調臺灣為什麼是二元的聘僱方式那這個整個的問題所以處長你有信心就是說我們很快會從這清單裡面被移出嗎?"},{"start":4571.048,"end":4579.871,"text":"不管怎樣我們保障外籍漁工的人權這個方向絕對不會改變我們也會持續跟業界一起來努力因為我們所擔心的就是說臺美21世紀的這個貿易倡議的談判他有特別提到美方特別提到他非常重視強迫勞動這個部分"},{"start":4593.536,"end":4596.097,"text":"尤其是對於臺灣的遠洋漁工的這個權益的問題在這個臺北21世紀貿易倡議談判五月份的時候就有特別的再一次的強調所以我們也擔心會不會影響到臺北21世紀貿易的倡議談判這個部分我想這個問題是一連串的那臺灣是一個人權與民主立國"},{"start":4617.185,"end":4634.254,"text":"這也是我們在國際上立足很重要的價值。所以這部分我想漁業署一定要持續的來努力。是,我們會持續來努力。好,以上謝謝。好,謝謝羅敏玲委員。各位請回。好,接下來進行詢答的委員是沈伯陽委員。好,謝謝主席。有請漁業署,謝謝。來,署長。"},{"start":4653.409,"end":4679.355,"text":"委員好總長好那這個最主要是根據今天的這一個要這個協定要做一些討論但是在這個之前因為昨天剛好有發生一個時事啦所以我想跟你確認一下就是說這一個我們有這一個捕魚的船嘛對不對被中國帶走是那這個因為我看到他們有說這個是一個休漁的一個季節啦那這個休漁這件事情就是禁止捕的這件事情是中國的還是臺灣的"},{"start":4681.355,"end":4704.413,"text":"跟委員報告中國大陸他有一個制度就是服下休餘那時候所指的休餘在昨天我們漁船作業的海域裡面他是從5月1號到8月16號這個區域他們是休餘的那所以這個是指中國大陸的休餘不是我們的休餘不是台灣的休餘台灣沒有台灣個別漁種但是針對我們昨天作業的漁船他並沒有這樣的禁制"},{"start":4705.253,"end":4719.42,"text":"好,那這個也蠻奇怪的,因為我看到新聞報導有說有中國的漁船,所以這個是有點疑義,但總之我只是想跟你確認這件事情而已。那再來就是根據今天這個漁業補貼,因為剛剛前面都有人問了,就是IUU的事情等等之類的,這個我不多說。"},{"start":4720.32,"end":4742.646,"text":"我問幾個小問題就是說因為目前應該是要三分之二的WTO會員國才有辦法持續下去然後所以大概要110個國家那目前有76個會員國已經完成審議了那台灣如果審議完成了送出去就再加上去那我只是想問就是目前漁業組有沒有自己評估說大概什麼時候有可能會生效有什麼時候會達到那個門檻"},{"start":4746.388,"end":4771.839,"text":"這個會看各個國家批准的程序但是從我們看這個整個程序還有從WTO我們代表團那邊提供的我們大概大家評估是大概很有可能今年就有可能會達到很有可能今年但是各個國家的狀況我們真的很沒有辦法因為有些國家有時候很慢對那如果是這個樣子如果是有可能今年的話有沒有目前針對生效後有可能產生的衝擊做一些評估"},{"start":4772.839,"end":4796.218,"text":"是,跟委員報告因為這個目前這個漁業補貼它大概針對三個部分第一個就是針對IU漁船不能予以補貼那這個臺灣本來相關法規就很完備的那第二個就是對於過於的這些作業的不能補貼那臺灣本來對我們研進台都有相關這些漁業資源的評估跟整個相關的規定我想我們這個部分在整個符合法規的部分沒有問題那第三個部分就是在"},{"start":4796.858,"end":4796.878,"text":"二、審"},{"start":4813.678,"end":4841.309,"text":"所以那這個因為我看到另外一份報告有講到說你們會啟動一些相關法律的修正那這些法律的修正有可能會是什麼時候提出來嗎各位報告因為目前WTO其實也在進行第二段第二階段的漁業補貼的整個談判那我們根據這對這些相關的法規部分會隨時滾動來檢討OK會隨時滾動來檢討那希望院版能夠盡快出來因為這個有可能就是如果說按照剛剛講的年底就會生效的話我覺得可能要提早做準備"},{"start":4841.989,"end":4870.465,"text":"是這個相關的準備都在進行OK那另外一個就是說遠洋漁業的問題剛剛前面已經有提到了所以我這邊不多說就是當然我們現在說這一個因為3個月就算強迫勞動嘛目前還是有到10個月的情形不過我覺得比較扯的還是Wi-Fi因為畢竟Wi-Fi現在韓國可以到這個3到5GB嘛或者3小時嘛那臺灣還是比較少一點所以這個可能就是慢慢再繼續減少改進這個我先不多講我要問的是下一個地方就是因為就是畢竟遠洋漁工它是一個重要議題"},{"start":4871.405,"end":4889.441,"text":"那雖然還不在這一次的協商範圍之內但是我們想知道這三年內這一個死亡跟傷病數字的一個處理情形還有包含這一個遠洋漁船那也包含FLC就是它有一些違規的數字啊後續處理的傾向等等之類的那我不是三年我不知道會不會太多啦"},{"start":4889.881,"end":4906.71,"text":"如果三年太多的話,或許近一年也可以。就是說我們可能還是要針對這個部分做一個評估。不然的話在接下來在下一次要討論這些漁業相關協定的時候,遠洋漁工的問題永遠都會被提出來。那被提出來的話呢,這些相關的數字不知道有沒有可能在這幾個禮拜送到辦公室來。"},{"start":4907.419,"end":4936.287,"text":"沒有問題那我要跟委員報告其實我們非常重視外籍漁工在漁船上作業的安全那除了這些相關的訓練跟船長這邊的訓練以外其實我們從今年開始我們對每一個遠洋漁船上面每個漁工都會補貼一件充氣式的救生衣那就是讓這些漁工在甲板上作業能夠穿著救生衣避免落海以後發生危險我想我們從各個面向這部分會持續來努力那至於數據的部分我們整理之後就會送到委員辦公室"},{"start":4936.807,"end":4952.881,"text":"此外,我可能後續要再繼續追一些跟遠洋漁工相關的問題。另外還有一個小資料,就是說這個FLC的這個漁船,因為目前來講,我看到網站上面會有一些不定期的更新。到底外籍漁工在這個上面的人數是多少?有這樣的數據嗎?"},{"start":4954.772,"end":4979.26,"text":"總委員報告所謂FOC就是它的國籍不在臺灣那這個有些是它當地國的管理那這個部分我們還要再進一步了解目前我們只掌握到跟我們報備經營FOC的這些船數那我們的規定也說它船上的這些外籍漁工它的相關權利什麼要比照國籍的漁船至於說人數各方面的部分我們目前還沒有進一步的資料目前沒有這個資料是"},{"start":4981.665,"end":4983.795,"text":"主席不好意思我再請一下這個外交部次長很快謝謝"},{"start":4996.598,"end":5010.258,"text":"市長好我這個很快這個就只是因為之前有這個發文到外交部問一下這一個他們的同性伴侶因為畢竟通常來講在外館他是第一關然後後來他可以再回到臺灣移民署是第二關那時候我們有發文說這一個就是"},{"start":5010.759,"end":5010.939,"text":"謝謝,謝謝主席。"},{"start":5043.971,"end":5070.489,"text":"好,謝謝沈伯良委員。接下來進行詢問委員,鄭天才委員。主席、國務委員,有請外交部還有農業部。好,兩位次長。"},{"start":5078.156,"end":5096.184,"text":"兩位次長好我們先談這個中華民國政府部分停止中華民國與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行書這個從你的外交部的報告裡面提到這個"},{"start":5097.83,"end":5124.097,"text":"一百零七年八月二十一日臺薩斷交後然後宣布薩國宣布自一百零八年三月十五號起廢除臺薩FTA請問一下外交部長這個我們為什麼要到現在才要要停止"},{"start":5127.32,"end":5146.749,"text":"一百零七年八月二十一號就臺薩斷交了對不對然後薩國主動宣布一百零八年三月十五號要廢除臺薩FTA我們現在已經是一百一十三年了即便是"},{"start":5148.339,"end":5173.363,"text":"一百一十二年你們有送到立法院當時從一百零七年八月二十一號斷交然後薩爾瓦多一百零八年三月十五號宣布廢除FDA 台沙FDA從一百零八年來講的話到現在也很多年了那為什麼"},{"start":5174.807,"end":5194.711,"text":"第二個當然是我們報告裡面有說明的是他們自己內部的糖業協會有提出他們內部的一種所謂的法律程序。對。那另外當然也是包括因為還有WTO的我們有的通報的程序。那接下來是我們送到行政院、行政院到立法院的這種審議程序。那已經是112年了。我說從108年到112年很長的時間了。"},{"start":5204.957,"end":5207.719,"text":"為什麼要拖到112年?為什麼要等他的憲法判決?我在問這個。你沒有交代啊。為什麼?"},{"start":5224.427,"end":5250.155,"text":"法委員,即使斷交之後,FTA還是有繼續存在有效的例子。所以,雖然當時跟薩爾瓦多斷交,但是我們的FTA仍然繼續有效。他宣布,那我們可不可以宣布?可以啊,不是不行啊。好,這個你在書面報告給我,好像很難回答。"},{"start":5251.734,"end":5276.323,"text":"這裡面你提到外交部的報告裡面以構成重大違約那要追究啊,如何追究?有沒有追究?嗯,如果說是有這部分的情況,我們當然歡迎有啊,你已經寫了以構成重大違約,不是如果啊已經寫了,寫得很清楚了是所以這個部分你很難起口,沒關係書面報告給我因為時間的關係後面還有是"},{"start":5281.621,"end":5307.971,"text":"所以因為你這裡面也提到了這個影響很少百分之對那個貿易總額均為百分之零點零一然後我出口的這些也很少我們去的也很少你說很有限嘛所以這個部分這個前後後做一個三十年的公務員"},{"start":5310.029,"end":5311.749,"text":"一月補貼協定馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書一月補貼協定這個部分請教"},{"start":5339.967,"end":5345.269,"text":"這樣的一個論述對不對這樣,WTO漁業補貼談判要求會員的義務包括這些,這個有沒有錯誤?第3個就是說"},{"start":5356.599,"end":5370.976,"text":"報告委員齁,那個這個字面上的這個意義的話可能都跟我們這個WTO的這個條文裡面都有一些有若干的這個部分齁第一個不能補貼涉及非法捕魚的這個部分他涉及的是IUU的這個重大違規第三個"},{"start":5373.018,"end":5373.038,"text":"二、審"},{"start":5398.517,"end":5418.447,"text":"這裡面有提到這個後續相關工作是那我們先看外交部一頁補貼協定的內容有這個摘要摘要就有6項所以也不見你剛才講的沿洋一頁近海一頁也有包括有吧近海一頁是"},{"start":5419.227,"end":5434.255,"text":"在近海的這個部分他有關於這個會過於的這個資源的這個部分我們要不能夠進行相當相關的補貼那因為我們都設有相關的禁漁區是還有禁漁區等那個這麼重大的事情是"},{"start":5435.464,"end":5459.351,"text":"有沒有跟我們的漁業界來溝通,讓他們去了解,讓他們說明。是,報告委員,這個我們都有在持續的跟漁民做,做產業界來做溝通。好,這個部分,我來說最後,這個主席已經站起來了。這裡面,抱歉抱歉,最後,"},{"start":5463.431,"end":5483.173,"text":"後續的,這個裡面有提到,辦理協定內國法化相關作業,盤點並檢視相關法規及計劃,堂以協定規範存有落差,將啟動修正程序,以協定生效前完成修法工作。"},{"start":5483.894,"end":5507.786,"text":"可以簡單說明哪些法律?謝謝委員。就裡面提到就是說,如果比如說IU漁業補貼,我們現在本來就已經禁止了嘛。那另外就是說,針對過於這個部分,針對過於這個部分,我們法規再更明確一點,然後讓相關的那個,那這個我們會滾動來檢討。那剛剛委員所提的第三個部分,其實是第二階段在談,目前各國還沒有共識。"},{"start":5508.726,"end":5509.347,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員徐曉欣委員"},{"start":5545.541,"end":5549.807,"text":"謝謝主席。我們請外交部常務次長以及這個農業部的漁業署張署長。學位好。"},{"start":5561.929,"end":5576.214,"text":"雖然今天來的不是海巡署但是最近昨天發生的大事跟漁業署還有外交部我認為也有很大的關係所以有一點問題想要來詢問據了解昨天大禁滿88號在晚間8點10分金門復國敦東北角海域21里處在捕撈小館的時候"},{"start":5582.717,"end":5605.655,"text":"突然有兩艘的中國海警船接近,然後放下小艇強行登檢。中國海警船控制船長跟船上的通訊系統,使得通訊系統中斷。兩艘海警船把這個船壓到中國維投方向行駛。我方派出三艘海巡艇到場,原本他們有兩艘海巡艦,後來增到七艘。"},{"start":5606.736,"end":5628.856,"text":"像這樣子本來是大陸復席休餘期間的喔可是呢海巡署說後續將由陸委會跟漁業署透過兩岸管道協調路方那媒體報導的是扣押的船上與船上有一名臺灣的船長跟五級的母民的外籍員工所以我想要先請問一下我們的漁業署的署長"},{"start":5631.058,"end":5639.083,"text":"在這個部分跟陸委會你們要怎麼透過兩岸的管道協商路方讓我們的外籍漁工以及我們的臺灣船長能夠順利回台?"},{"start":5642.719,"end":5665.215,"text":"謝謝委員的關心。我想有幾點必須要先說明。第一個部分,兩個部分兩岸之間本來就有很多海域是重疊的。是。那我們漁船作業的區域其實過去我們的漁船。當天他們是在我國管轄範圍還是不是在我國管轄範圍?本來兩岸之間就有很多海域是重疊的。那當原來他們作業的區域也是以往我們的漁船就是在作業的區域。嗯。"},{"start":5665.775,"end":5687.644,"text":"這是第一個要說明的那第二個部分目前船上我們所掌握的是有兩名臺籍的船員包括船長還有三名印尼籍的船員大概是這樣的情形那第三個部分因為兩岸之間我們會透過陸委會這邊來跟陸方這邊來協商要求放人那我們也呼籲中國大陸不要為難漁民"},{"start":5688.684,"end":5711.839,"text":"因為漁民作業非常的辛苦,他們也是為了養家糊口,那雙方能夠務實地協調解決問題,真的不要危難漁民,漁民真的非常的辛苦。那根據於葉署署長您的了解,因為您跟陸委會這邊應該也都,包含是海委會這邊,應該我們都已經做過討論嘛。那明明我們有三艘海巡船,為什麼人還是被帶走?請問你們是否有跟海巡署討論過為何會有此種疏失?"},{"start":5714.784,"end":5714.804,"text":"二、審"},{"start":5735.31,"end":5751.755,"text":"但未來是不是我們的漁船、漁民都會置於風險當中?漁業署有什麼樣的方法可以協助?這會不會變成常態?漁業署能夠提供我們漁民如何的幫助跟保護?我們不去預測啦但是我們會告訴我們的漁民說這個相關的規定還有我們作業的海域的部分必須要注意"},{"start":5760.117,"end":5788.094,"text":"可是你說有重疊的部分啊那他如果在重疊的部分裡面那他去撈魚的時候那被又發生同樣的情況該怎麼辦呢這個其實我們也希望中國大陸能夠尊重我們漁船作業的權利本來這個海域雙方的漁船都有在那個地方作業我們就尊重這些漁民作業的權利那我們臺灣也有跟其他的國家比如說臺日、臺非我們都有重疊海域其實雙方是透過協商去做相關的漁業管理"},{"start":5789.034,"end":5809.713,"text":"那我們什麼時候會跟中國大陸去做協商?這個我們會跟陸委會這邊一起來努力。那一起來努力有沒有時間表?因為這個雙方的協商不是單方面。因為現在很急嘛。對,現在很急,因為我們希望兩名船長、兩名船員能夠台灣可能趕快回來嘛。那你們有沒有一個時間表什麼時候要來啟動這樣子的一個協商?"},{"start":5810.473,"end":5830.83,"text":"我想當務之急應該是讓我們的船跟人能夠儘速回到臺灣來保障他們的安全這個是第一個要做的部分那你們現在目前有沒有了解說跟陸委會這邊已經有向大陸這邊有一個確切的時間要來協商這件事情還是目前是完全沒有的情況今天早上我們跟陸委會這邊來聯絡陸委會那邊已經展開作業了"},{"start":5834.812,"end":5855.958,"text":"我再繼續問一下外交部這邊雖然此事是由陸委會海委會長官但是我想問這個事情如果變成全球注目因為現在大家都很關心臺海兩岸之間的關聯性而且不只是兩岸關係也是全球都在關注這件事情請問外交部的態度是什麼"},{"start":5857.527,"end":5857.547,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":5887.307,"end":5887.448,"text":"那有用嗎?"},{"start":5897.448,"end":5910.771,"text":"至少我覺得在目前為止很多其他國家包括很多在南海東海這些當事的國家都當然還有包括美國都有很多的相關的議題的立場的表態那這次有人表態了嗎這一次目前為止因為還發生的才發生而已所以未來會有其他國家來表態支持以及協助這部分我們政府是已經有海巡海巡署已經發布了我是說其他國家的部分"},{"start":5922.873,"end":5951.639,"text":"你剛剛說到的是其他國家因為我們曾經發布的這個聲明稿所以會一起來支持臺灣支持中華民國那面對這樣子所謂不合理的待遇那請問這次我們所掌握的有沒有其他的國家會站出來支援我們這部分我們會繼續努力所以目前沒有目前沒有但是希望未來會有好 謝謝好 謝謝徐曉新委員各位請回接下來進行巡達委員林楚英委員"},{"start":5964.985,"end":5993.278,"text":"謝謝主席,主席有請陳長賜來,長賜請林委員長次長好,我想這個中國這種所謂充滿了侵略性的行為跟行動剛剛前面很多委員都問到了昨天發生在我們的這個洪水域的這個船隻的事情其實我想舉的另外一個可能次長更了解這是一個最新的訊息我想外交部應該有接受到通報了"},{"start":5993.658,"end":6007.848,"text":"就是中國公然是在法國的境內來威脅他們的異議人士直接把他們帶回去中國因此現在法國也做出了具體的行動就是驅離了兩位國安部的間諜他們稱為法國的世界報很明確地說這是兩名中國的間諜而且是中國國家安全部在中國駐法大使館的負責人跟他的副手"},{"start":6018.456,"end":6040.967,"text":"那麼顯然其實中國對於所謂他們認為他們界定的異議人士啊他們在全球生出這種戰狼以外類似這種直接逼迫的行為已經也不是第一次了所以說面對其實之前我們提到的中國所發布的新的22條他對於台獨或者是所謂的相關他"},{"start":6041.707,"end":6041.927,"text":"我們現在發布了旅遊警戒"},{"start":6066.698,"end":6066.718,"text":"二、審"},{"start":6081.969,"end":6100.693,"text":"但是我也收到了另外一個聲音就是如果當時沒有透過新聞或是沒有立委的質詢的話其實很多我們國家跟其他國家的旅遊地區有紅燈有橘燈有不一樣的旅遊警戒但是國人其實不知道最近會被注意到的原因是因為中國發布了22條的台獨意見之後"},{"start":6103.914,"end":6118.304,"text":"大家注意到了包括陸委會宣布了它是橘燈所以我要問這個長次的就是對於這些旅遊警戒我們除了透過新聞稿發布之後民眾到底知不知道而這些民眾如果真的要去紅燈區或橘燈區那麼真的去了就沒有問題嗎"},{"start":6122.367,"end":6136.458,"text":"需不需要透過跟包括交通部或者是相關的觀光旅遊的單位甚至於跟旅行社來聯絡你要去可以但是要不要簽一個相關的切結書了解自身的安危不然到時候變成是政府宣導不夠啊讓他們深入險境啊來長次"},{"start":6141.522,"end":6163.392,"text":"是,謝謝委員您剛剛對這個議題寶貴的意見還有您的這個督促的確這個非常重要因為牽涉到國人旅外商旅的安全那剛剛您所提到臺獨城市二十二條這種常備管轄其實在很多之前的在這個委會裡面我們的討論都有包括這個部分那所以剛剛委員所提問說未來如果精進傳達的效率"},{"start":6164.693,"end":6164.713,"text":"二、審"},{"start":6179.947,"end":6179.967,"text":"二、審"},{"start":6203.619,"end":6210.569,"text":"這些非常趨於嚴重的傾向我們要一而再再而三的提醒國人就是各種可能的風險因為這樣的一個新的趨勢必須要提加小心那剛剛我們除了說我也提到了出國那你到底要怎麼知道"},{"start":6219.542,"end":6219.562,"text":"二、審"},{"start":6236.516,"end":6236.536,"text":"二、審"},{"start":6254.284,"end":6254.304,"text":"二、審"},{"start":6278.84,"end":6294.368,"text":"那本席特別有了解一下比如像美國來講的話他們是有推出一個智慧旅行者的註冊計畫你一旦註冊之後那麼美國的國務院會主動的發email如果說不管你有沒有要去旅行或旅遊他有一些相關的旅遊的警示或警訊或是資訊就會提供給美國的公民或者是你有註冊者"},{"start":6298.55,"end":6307.895,"text":"但是呢我們來看一下其實就像您剛剛講的我要問的就是我們其實有一個旅行救助指南的APP但是截至7月2號為止下載的只有47萬3千人對比我們臺灣你知道7月"},{"start":6315.078,"end":6339.806,"text":"最近大家看到新聞都在講在機場裡面旅遊的人潮爆滿我們單單2024年3月就已經達到了132萬人次喔其實彼此之間是非常的不相當在這個部分我也會建議好好的去強化這個功能好嗎包括你去下載的時候你可以多一點的訊息跟提供因為現在大家都是人手一機啦這樣的訊息可以更直接更直銷"},{"start":6340.566,"end":6350.944,"text":"好,謝謝委員的指教。我們會繼續努力在這方面去繼續加強。好,謝謝。好,謝謝林楚瑩委員。各位請回。接下來進行詢答的委員是林益君委員。"},{"start":6366.195,"end":6371.861,"text":"主席好,有請外交部次長還有經濟部次長。來,兩位次長。委員長,早安。請問外交部,無論是內部還是外部的因素,目前我們台美關係是不是史上下是最好的關係呢?堅若磐石。"},{"start":6391.684,"end":6395.446,"text":"那請問外交部2018年的時候美國對於包括臺灣在內的許多國家施加了綱領關稅那請問在2018年之後的幾年間美國已經陸續的延長還有完全豁免對歐盟還有日本還有韓國墨西哥及加拿大等國家的綱領關稅那既然現在臺美關係是史上最好的關係那究竟還有什麼理由不能要求美國撤銷對我們的綱領關稅呢?"},{"start":6422.505,"end":6438.77,"text":"報告委員這件事情我們跟行政院的經貿談判辦公室有合作一直在跟美方討論這件事情因為美國目前他這個整個的思潮上面對於這個鋼的鋁的他認為跟他的就業有很大的關係"},{"start":6439.87,"end":6454.439,"text":"所以這些國家大部分像日本、韓國、墨西哥、加拿大是因為FTA所以他們在那個平台上來討論歐盟跟他們是在前幾年才達成一個協議雙方來因為歐盟有對他報復"},{"start":6455.78,"end":6470.721,"text":"那麼彼此間就有達成一個協議至於我國的部分我們還是盡量來跟美國說服他說這樣對他來講是損人不利己啊所以我們希望美國也能夠撤除對我們的關稅不過這個可能需要看整個國際局勢的發展來跟美方討論"},{"start":6472.073,"end":6475.394,"text":"因為據我了解今年5月美國已經宣布對中國大陸的鋼鋁製品還有起重機還有半導體等加徵高關稅所以尤其是對鋼鋁產品的話它關稅已從7.5%提高到25%所以請問一下那美國現在是汽車和飛機製造大國嘛"},{"start":6491.178,"end":6491.198,"text":"二、審"},{"start":6510.219,"end":6510.68,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":6524.187,"end":6547.347,"text":"事實上我們一直在跟美國討論這件事情因為美方的跟臺灣的他是我們的第二大貿易夥伴雙方的貿易關係千絲萬縷很多地方都需要進一步來討論現在在討論的這個21世紀貿易協定倡議這個部分也是一個很好的平台在上面大家都可以很好的來交換意見也不限於綱領而已"},{"start":6549.248,"end":6571.453,"text":"所以其實鋼鋁產業其實是高污染高耗能產業但是問題是想要推動一個國家朝強大的工業的發展短期內鋼鋁產業其實是還是很難被取代的有一個重要性所以請經濟部和金盼的辦公室一起努力畢竟我們在免除鋼鋁關係上真的是已經落後其他國家太多了好不好是謝謝委員執照好來謝謝然後再請那個外交部和法務部謝謝"},{"start":6580.811,"end":6582.292,"text":"有請法務部那請問一下上週五28號的時候印尼開始逮捕了103名在印尼巴黎島的從事網路詐騙的臺灣人那這個規模算是很大的組織喔那北希想要請教一下那個法務部根據媒體報導"},{"start":6606.644,"end":6630.259,"text":"外交部曾對外說明經印尼方侵查以後103名的嫌犯都是臺灣籍的但是這些臺灣人在印尼做網路詐騙但受害的人卻是馬來西亞的華人因為印尼當局沒有辦法對這一群詐騙的進行、詐騙方進行指控所以很快就要想要把他們驅除出境那請問一下臺灣跟印尼目前有沒有司法互助的協定和協議呢?呃臺灣目前跟印尼呃臺灣"},{"start":6637.202,"end":6638.884,"text":"包括為目前跟印尼沒有?"},{"start":6655.081,"end":6669.672,"text":"在2017年的時候,8月有一批大陸人和台灣人是不是組成了一個電信詐騙集團,然後在印尼被逮捕,然後送往中國大陸,但是在這個期間,我們的外交部駐印尼的代表有把22名台灣籍的有4名攔下來了,依照國籍遣返原則,"},{"start":6672.854,"end":6672.874,"text":"二、審"},{"start":6702.195,"end":6722.354,"text":"對於這個部分我們這邊也會盡努力因為當然是希望我們也會盡努力就是尋找尋以往的方式因為能讓我們的犯罪人回到臺灣來受審當然是我們一直以來的努力的目標那就北京這邊是否已經發表這樣的意見我們還會再瞭解中謝謝"},{"start":6723.237,"end":6748.021,"text":"好,所以如果是說,像剛才你說的,如果說回到臺灣的話,那我想再請問一下,103位詐騙犯全部遣送回來臺灣的前提之下,根據2016年通過的刑法修正案,把這刑法第339條第4條的加重詐欺罪,納入國外犯罪也是用,所以這樣的話,我們臺灣人在國外從事電信詐騙,是不是司法機關仍然會依照這樣的刑法來處罰呢?我這樣理解對嗎?哦,是。"},{"start":6751.198,"end":6756.362,"text":"最後還是呼籲一下法務部現在臺灣的詐騙其實臺灣的民眾都是深受其害還有這些詐騙集團也跑到其他國家從事詐騙所以這個案件越來越多會嚴重影響到我們臺灣的國際的聲譽所以甚至我們國家會在臺灣開放簽證免簽的時候也會再三的考慮所以會影響到臺灣和鄰近國家的正常的商務往來所以要請法務部必須對這個境外詐騙"},{"start":6780.501,"end":6786.985,"text":"事件一定要有效地整合各種機制,還有確實的方式,好嗎?接下來請王定宇委員執行。好,謝謝主席。麻煩余燁曙署署長。有請余燁曙。"},{"start":6813.174,"end":6835.37,"text":"趙偉昭主席辛苦了我幾個問題要請教你希望清晰明瞭的讓國人了解我們彭吳吉的漁船大金門88號在金門的外面的海域大概也距離中國晉江深戶外大概11.2海里的地方我第一個問題這個地方是不是我們漁民傳統的作業的漁場是"},{"start":6842,"end":6857.114,"text":"這個漁場跟中國的海域有重疊嗎?是,因為兩岸之間本來就有很多海域是重疊。特別基本那裡是重疊的。對對對。所以你如果用12海里的領海來算,其實兩邊是有重疊的地方。是。那重疊的地方,我第二個要問的是,"},{"start":6858.246,"end":6879.464,"text":"在那個地方作業的漁船不會只有這一艘大金板88號就你了解我國的漁船我國國籍的漁船在那個水域進行捕撈的大概有多少艘從昨天的那個他AIS的這些資訊當時應該有五六艘AIS就船舶的識別標準對對船舶就是我們"},{"start":6880.144,"end":6880.564,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":6908.682,"end":6919.771,"text":"不同的季節是撈補不一樣的東西所以在那裡作業的漁船數量到底有多少澎湖籍的啊或者其他的港口的你們到現在還沒有這數據嗎"},{"start":6925.258,"end":6938.594,"text":"對,所以我在說那裡既然是傳統的重疊的水域過去都沒有事情這一次為什麼出這個事情然後我們的漁民要不要被警告或者被保護或者海巡署要增加變五艘、六艘"},{"start":6939.804,"end":6939.824,"text":"二、審"},{"start":6958.843,"end":6981.529,"text":"因為我們目前所掌握的狀況,這個漁船並沒有違反我國相關的法令。好,也就是說那裡是重疊的作業漁船、漁場。第二個,我們蠻多艘的漁船傳統在外面作業,不是只有大金滿。然後第三,這一個大金滿88號並沒有違反我國以及國際相關作業的法令。"},{"start":6982.697,"end":7006.972,"text":"所以第四個要請教,在你們掌握的狀況下,過去到現在有沒有發生類似這樣的事情?就是文淳那好好的在那裡工作,以前都在這邊作業,就莫名其妙被這樣逮捕、押回去的。他還押回軍港,我一頭是軍港。過去沒有類似的案例。以前沒有類似的案例。那你們昨天晚上八點發生的,到目前為止,我相信發布會討論應該有你們參與在內。你們研判為什麼會發生這個事情?"},{"start":7011.943,"end":7034.478,"text":"他現在解釋是說這個是因為浮魚期間啊什麼的那坦白講如果我國的船隻侵入人家領海就像他們的船隻侵入我們澎湖的領海該抓就抓這個違反法律我沒有話講可是那個地方我該問下來其實重疊海域作業海域過去都有多少漁船在那邊作業為什麼這時候發生這事情"},{"start":7036.467,"end":7057.584,"text":"我們不去預測原因,但是我想我還是要強調我們不希望中國大陸為難我們的漁民。那營救的方式,因為剛才有其他委員我特別請外交部以及我們漁業署還有海巡或者是我們相關的陸委會等等盡快讓我們漁民回來,這個是非常重要的。你們兩位先請回,我們請外交部次長"},{"start":7059.758,"end":7082.018,"text":"市長我現在請教你一個問題這個問題其實蠻簡單的中國不管是在去年7月份的反間諜法那是全部的外國人包含台灣美國、加拿大、澳洲人都有這個風險美國在美國的商業部在去年就警告說違邦不入翻成中國是這樣的他去年就發布公告美國去年就公告了沒事情不要提"},{"start":7082.818,"end":7105.324,"text":"投資標去、旅遊標去反間諜法是針對所有人沒有理由就可以去把你扣押、可以查然後呢另外他們的保守國家秘密法另外在剛剛這個禮拜發生的開始可以搜查手機、筆電等等當然對台灣還有22條這個台獨可以缺席審辦、最高死刑等等我們都知道"},{"start":7106.224,"end":7119.316,"text":"去中國可能會有不確定風險這個不確定風險的意思就是人人都有風險有些人說不會沒有那麼倒楣不像不會是我這有點像疫情啊那個COVID-19"},{"start":7120.35,"end":7146.666,"text":"死亡率0.5、0.3好像不是大家都會死但是那個風險叫不確定風險所以大家都呼籲要打疫苗嘛所以交通部就發布了到中國的旅遊的警示美國也發布旅遊的警示韓國更特別韓國CIA就是國情院也發布旅遊的警示日本今天在討論要不要發布旅遊的警示好這個是指去中港澳的旅遊警示我現在請問你一個問題引渡風險是"},{"start":7150.572,"end":7150.632,"text":"我懷疑"},{"start":7165.691,"end":7165.711,"text":"二、審"},{"start":7186.992,"end":7206.738,"text":"當然你說我們出國旅遊大家自己要小心注意風險但是外交部對旅遊的警示是不是要增加一個引渡風險基本上政治性的刑罰各國基本上是不引渡的政治罪名不引渡那歐盟的話是該國有死刑的他不引渡"},{"start":7208.174,"end":7228.349,"text":"所以目前就外交部的評估中國這種蠻橫的惡法我們當然可以不去那裡但第三地第三國的引渡風險有還是沒有高還是低這一部分其實在我們之前不管相關新聞稿或者說在譴責以及希望理念相信國家民主國家來共同反制中國這些破壞國際法"},{"start":7229.09,"end":7229.11,"text":"二、審"},{"start":7248.833,"end":7273.179,"text":"時間的關係外交部跟交通部要禁訴就第三國第三地引渡風險列警示如果沒有就正式說沒有最好還是由理念相近國家公開說中國這種法我們不吃這一套這個要國際合作這個外交部責無旁貸我最後這張圖卡謝謝你們一下因為我一直要找機會這一個國人回到臺灣一直請我跟外交部謝謝你們做了一件好事情"},{"start":7274.6,"end":7295.998,"text":"這個新克里多尼亞這個名字都很難唸很多人不知道在哪裡這個是法國的屬地法國屬地呢三次公投他們都不想獨立他們都想做法國屬地最近法國為了讓他脫離還修改投票辦法就造成新克里多尼亞大暴動我們的國人先陷在那裡結果他們聯絡外交部"},{"start":7297.119,"end":7297.579,"text":"接下來請賴瑞隆委員"},{"start":7336.992,"end":7364.424,"text":"好 謝謝主席先請那個漁業署張署長來署長請署長先請教你昨天這個中國的海警來登我們的漁船把他給押回了我先問一下這個漁船他作業的這個水域的部分到底可不可以捕撈的可不可以作業的他作業的區域是兩岸重疊的水域所以是可以在那邊作業的"},{"start":7365.264,"end":7391.333,"text":"對,過去我們的船也在那裡作業那昨天在那個地方作業除了這個漁船以外其實還有其他的漁船也在那裡作業所以過去以來也從來沒有被這樣的狀況這幾年都沒有相關的案例恐怕連驅離都沒有驅離嘛對不對所以驅離更何況還把他帶回所以這個是一個很異常的動作嘛我想這個不管什麼昨天這樣的動作都會造成漁民的不安也影響漁民的作業以往有沒有發生過這樣的事情"},{"start":7392.097,"end":7400.43,"text":"沒有沒有發生過這樣近年來沒有這樣的案例從來沒有發生過這件事情所以我說它是一個異常的狀況嘛就是正常來說不應該發生的但是卻發生"},{"start":7402.028,"end":7422.15,"text":"我再問一下,過去以往以來,不管是臺灣這邊或中國這邊的,我們一般對於漁船的部分,我們大多數也是採用驅離嘛,對不對?是一般是廣播驅離,這樣。廣播驅離嘛。臺灣有沒有把這個越境或到那邊來捕撈的,把它給抓回來過?你這個詳細執行是在海巡的部分啊。對,我問你,"},{"start":7422.29,"end":7437.684,"text":"國安有沒有嘛?署長你所了解多不多?我所了解的有,有這樣的案例不多嘛,這個絕對是一個特殊的案例通常都是驅離嘛,那如果驅離沒有辦法驅離的話他屢勸不聽的話才會做後續的動作所以即使有也是在驅離屢勸不聽狀況下才會把他給帶回嘛對不對?是所以這個是一個"},{"start":7441.607,"end":7460.135,"text":"那更何況這樣的他待會的時候我們的人已經趕過去了也在關心這樣的一些狀況了嘛所以我也認為這個都是個異常的動作啦一般來說就算就算這個還是個重疊水域就算是入侵到了你的相關的水域的話你頂多就驅離台灣多數也都是用驅離的"},{"start":7461.286,"end":7475.319,"text":"是,它有,這個在海域上作業有一定的程序。好,那現在他們已經把人給,船跟人扣回去了嘛,那接下來部分的話,如果就相關即使我是,好啦,就算我有爭議的話,一般會怎麼處理?"},{"start":7477.191,"end":7494.948,"text":"我想我們會透過陸委會這邊跟大陸這邊來瞭解情形那後續的協商的部分後續的協商當然我們希望人跟船能夠儘速釋放我的意思是說即使越獄即使喔由越獄到了對方的這個去作業的區域去備那個話那"},{"start":7500.334,"end":7510.885,"text":"過去台灣的漁船有發生比如說到印尼或者是到馬來西亞這些相關水域如果有被認為入侵水域要屬實的話通常是罰款"},{"start":7513.208,"end":7536.039,"text":"那罰款應該就整個人跟船就放回了嘛,對不對?是。所以我們來後續來靜待這個處理好不好?就是說光能不能罰款都具有高度的爭議,因為這是一個大家都可以作業的一個水域。是,所以我們希望中國大陸務實處理不要為難於民。就不要為難於民。那就算正常狀態下其實應該趕快把人家放回來了,因為這是在大家共同可作業的一個水域。"},{"start":7536.539,"end":7565.077,"text":"那就算就算最惡劣的狀況罰款也是都能解釋你更沒有理由把人不斷的扣下來是吧是好不好盡快我希望那個整個農業部跟外交部跟相關的單位要盡快去協調溝通這個其實大家是相互克制相互尊重但是如果過當的一些行為的話其實會引起臺灣人民的反彈跟不滿同時間又引起國際大家對地方局勢的緊張是不是刻意在製造一些事端來製造兩岸的緊張關係"},{"start":7566.498,"end":7587.837,"text":"對,所以我們希望真的不要為難漁民,因為非常的辛苦,為難漁民沒有意義,而且雙方要務實來討論解決這件問題。好,謝謝。接下來我問一下,今天我們要處理這個協定的部分,我先問一下,我們現在的漁業的管理其實都符合相關的協定嘛,對不對?其實看起來因為這些,因為我們對IU本來就是強制的,我們更不可能去補貼它嘛,這是必然的嘛。是。"},{"start":7588.337,"end":7612.126,"text":"那我在問的是,這個協定通過對我們的漁業會有產生任何的一些影響嗎?跟委員報告,其實我們初步評估,這裡面很多相關的法規我們都已經在執行了,而且我們漁民也都遵守這些相關的法規,所以我們初步認為在第一階段這個漁業補貼的協議通過以後對我們的漁業不會造成影響。不會產生影響。是。好,OK,好,謝謝,來,那謝謝署長請問,接下來要請外交部次長,陳次長。"},{"start":7618.698,"end":7622.105,"text":"市長我先問一下現在我們的邦交國的關係現在狀況怎麼樣?"},{"start":7625.291,"end":7647.383,"text":"我看到最近從賴清德總統上任之後,其實中國這邊有很多不友善的一些行為,那幫教國的狀況還是希望持續來注意的。謝謝委員關心,謝謝。現在剩最後一點,我再問一下,前陣子大家都高度關注駐美大使余大磊的這些事情,那外交部內部討論過、了解、調查過了嗎?"},{"start":7651.345,"end":7658.37,"text":"最近的一次外會的這個會議裡面我們外交部理部長也都有做過很多說明了那現在這個程序在調查還在進行當中"},{"start":7682.129,"end":7688.067,"text":"那裡面的部分部長有提到暫時不會做停止的調查嗎?對不對?"},{"start":7689.137,"end":7709.792,"text":"這是部長說的是的所以外交部目前的態度這樣那我要講的是說因為駐美大使對臺灣相當的重要那其實也是一個重要相當重要的一個職務那這樣的一個報導其實對駐美大使對臺美的都會有相當的一些影響我們希望外交部盡速把這個做一個說明跟澄清有問題該怎麼辦就怎麼辦如果沒有問題的話要盡速還這個大使清白不然"},{"start":7714.815,"end":7742.158,"text":"我認為拖太長的時間對於整個我們的外交形象對跟台美關係我認為都會有一定的影響是的,外交部會在提交報告這個時間是最最短的最晚的時間兩週啦但是我認為應該提早完成因為並不困難事實並不困難那越早能夠把事實真相澄清迅速這個果斷的做處理的話該還人家清白的還清白有問題該處理就處理這樣才能夠讓大家對於整個駐美的大使狀況跟外交的"},{"start":7743.8,"end":7744.781,"text":"謝謝主席。麻煩請外交部還有經濟部兩位次長。"},{"start":7771.448,"end":7787.65,"text":"市長好今天因為我們有其中有提到就是針對中華民國政府停止中華民國與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書原本因為我們已經都斷交了"},{"start":7787.91,"end":7788.27,"text":"對,是吧"},{"start":7811.886,"end":7831.853,"text":"可是我們到112年才提出來,雖然是今天審,可是你們112年因為過界就不連續了,所以又提出來。那從108年到112年,經過4年的時間,在這裡我特別要提出來是,雖然FTA它可以持續,可是薩爾瓦多跟我們斷交以後,"},{"start":7832.893,"end":7832.913,"text":"二、審"},{"start":7854.892,"end":7875.565,"text":"報告委員,薩爾瓦多因為他雖然斷交,可是FTA持續有效,也就是薩爾瓦多也持續施行...那我們為什麼112年提出來,為什麼?薩爾瓦多不要了,是嗎?不是,他持續施行FTA,那麼後來他的憲法法庭判決之後,他的海關才公佈說他停止施行..."},{"start":7875.765,"end":7896.07,"text":"就是他們停止了嘛今天如果是我們也可以有這樣的主導權你需要等到人家不要了憲法法庭已經說了我們才拿出來這裡審嘛這是我今天要特別告訴兩個單位因為我們不是一直主動一直被斷交一直被斷交結果你在其他的地方還沒有辦法有主動權這個部分你們自己去檢討還要說還要說什麼嗎"},{"start":7901.974,"end":7908.799,"text":"接下來我知道他們可以持續可是你不要什麼都是在被動的單位好不好因為我們還有產業利益也是要協調是人家還在乎你的產業利益嗎結果他112年提出來的時候你還不是提出來了這樣你還可以說產業利益嗎除非我們有什麼損失這個部分你們自己去追究在這裡不要把國格都放在地上踩"},{"start":7932.103,"end":7937.464,"text":"在這裡特別也要請教我們外交部次長就是說中共在上個月底它發布了關於依法懲治臺獨頑固分子分裂國家、煽動分裂國家犯罪的意見威脅要對臺獨分裂分子追究刑事責任剛剛其實也有委員都有特別提到所以陸委會也隨即宣布調升"},{"start":7956.449,"end":7961.317,"text":"中華民國（臺灣（政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣（政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣（政府部分停止"},{"start":7969.253,"end":7985.748,"text":"中國大陸是由陸委會去做處置沒有錯不過外交部對於世界各國發布旅遊警訊主要是外交部的業務那我們的各階段的旅遊警訊的標準是什麼參考的條件大概有哪些"},{"start":7986.83,"end":8011.367,"text":"跟委員報告因為全世界各地隨時都有可能發生比如說天災、戰亂政治上的動盪或者說各種可能包括恐怖攻擊事件所以其實當然我們必須有這個責任義務去提醒國人有任何商旅、遊學、觀光出國的必要的時候我們要給我們的國人這樣的一個參考指標所以還是有嘛那因為陸委會已經對"},{"start":8013.686,"end":8030.244,"text":"中共﹐中國的部分發出這樣的旅遊警示那像我們現在因為中共宣布的臺獨份子大概有15位那組織跟企業大概有8家上週其實有委員提醒中國跟55個國家簽署了引渡條款"},{"start":8031.485,"end":8045.534,"text":"禁本席辦公室查詢其中大概有39個國家它都是已經生效了而且這裡面不乏國人常去的國家比如說像泰國、越南、南韓、南非、法國、義大利等等總共有39個國家而且依據美國國務院"},{"start":8049.457,"end":8073.056,"text":"負責東亞跟太平洋事務助理國務卿康達上個月底其實他在出席眾議院聽政會的時候也曾經說大陸採取升級的舉措基本上是在境外適用中華人民共和國的法律跟法規那這個也會讓我們擔心的是中共可以使用引渡條約來要求簽署國引渡被中共認定的台獨份子嗎?"},{"start":8078.32,"end":8088.348,"text":"政治犯當然沒有辦法這樣認定政治犯是由簽署國去認定的可是像這樣子的引渡的可能性你們怎麼判斷?"},{"start":8091.15,"end":8115.581,"text":"目前當然我們剛剛有很多委員在這個議題上的關注我們第一步應該當然是說對於剛剛我也提到這五十幾個國家或是說已經生下的國家在出去這個其他旅遊的時候觀光或是個人目的的出訪可能有這樣的風險我們要大家提醒但是我也是想說會不會案例發生的時候的處置措施那我們目前能夠做當然是要跟至少"},{"start":8116.121,"end":8116.141,"text":"二、審"},{"start":8144.961,"end":8144.981,"text":"二、審"},{"start":8156.67,"end":8156.69,"text":"二、審"},{"start":8175.589,"end":8198.473,"text":" ﹗"},{"start":8199.834,"end":8211.518,"text":"我還要再詢問一下外交部委託捷克與第三方援助烏克蘭的部分這個我們在五月份吳釗燮部長在的時候就已經提到提供一千萬美元捐助給烏克蘭這個需求的清單出來了沒有目前我們應該是說這個案子還在跟解放在協調當中"},{"start":8223.007,"end":8229.49,"text":"你們當時在這裡公開的說在6月份其實就會有需求清單因為你是要緊急去協助他們的需求結果你到現在7月的這個已經過了很長的時間你們本來說要提供清單到現在還在協調我不知道要協調什麼先把清單提供給本席還有我們委員會好不好什麼時候可以提供"},{"start":8248.496,"end":8249.337,"text":"我們盡快提供"},{"start":8264.028,"end":8265.329,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是紅森漢委員。"},{"start":8305.625,"end":8308.027,"text":"請這個外交部陳次長跟農業部的黃次長來兩位次長"},{"start":8317.216,"end":8336.657,"text":"歡迎光臨。威教部跟農業部,我們今天要審查這兩個協定跟議定書。當然這是一個很好的機會,之前其實有幾個在台的外籍的漁工組織,"},{"start":8338.336,"end":8338.356,"text":"二、審"},{"start":8365.586,"end":8376.806,"text":"那也很多這些僱主他沒有幫外籍公務來做保險所以當有船員死亡的時候才沒有拿到賠償那這都是我們自己辦公室遇到很真實的案例"},{"start":8378.819,"end":8407.306,"text":"市長,我們這幾年在遠洋漁業上面受到國際上面的壓力大不大?報告委員,持續一直都有受到國際上的壓力。是,所以不論是2015年被歐盟列入這個打擊IUU漁業不合作國家的黃牌,或者是2020年、2022年又被美國列入同工及強迫勞動製品清單,那這次在臺美21世紀貿易協定談判上面,其實我們的遠洋漁業也一直是受到被關注的對象。"},{"start":8408.286,"end":8423.543,"text":"那我想問次長知不知道我們在今年的今年五月的時候歐盟其實通過了一個竊永續禁職調查指令所謂的滴滴法知不知道知道嗎是那目前這個法其實生效了那歐盟這個法齁"},{"start":8425.717,"end":8445.397,"text":"其實很多專家都提醒他很可能會衝擊到臺灣的原糧漁業那我們之前拿掉了歐盟IUU的黃牌但很多人擔心不用多久接下來又要面對這個滴滴法的制裁那這部分我想知道目前漁業署或外交部我們有沒有做什麼相關的準備"},{"start":8449.023,"end":8475.262,"text":"報告委員事實上我們現在針對這個漁業勞動以及人權的這個問題的話那持續在做改善改進當中所以基本上像剛剛委員所說的薪資的這個部分我們已經立法強制要求這個必須要直接匯入到這個漁工的這個這個戶頭那還有相關的這些事實上我就直接問好不好因為我們今天在外交國防委員會現在歐盟新立的新通過的這個企業永續禁止調查指令"},{"start":8476.463,"end":8480.309,"text":"那他已經上路了我們農業部有沒有對這個法規進行評估或影響我們未來會持續關注所以還沒做還沒做嗎"},{"start":8489.551,"end":8515.646,"text":"五月,人家五月就通過,今天七月囉。各位委員報告齁,大概有幾個地方要澄清啦齁,要說明一下。第一個那個Duty Diligence本來就是我們在整個做漁業管理的部分,包括漁工權利保重的部分,本來就要做這些部分。對。這大概第一個部分。那第二個部分,歐盟先初步通過的法案其實是針對大企業的部分。對,沒錯。那我們遠洋漁船都是小的那個漁船,或者是比較那個。但是你的遠洋漁船,"},{"start":8516.286,"end":8540.182,"text":"接下來如果他把貨賣給大的水產企業的時候就會面對這個相對應的問題啊所以我們現在從幾個面向Duty你僅是他去查的幾個部分包括勞犬的部分包括這個漁業管理的部分我們必須把這個前端整個做好我們才能夠因應後端這些整個的調查是但是我現在要問的是說現在歐盟剛通過的這個法規我們有沒有去做相關的法規的影響評估或盤點"},{"start":8542.483,"end":8569.269,"text":"弄清楚我們可能現在我們的遠洋漁業的運作的方式裡面或模式裡面哪些部分可能未來會受到影響這部分農業部有沒有做了嗎?我的問題是這個嘛目前評估正在會委託相關學者專家來做但是我們內部初步檢視我們目前的法規會受到影響的部分我們必須要去強化或者是管理面的部分不過完善的地方要去強化的地方這個我們內部已經做過評估"},{"start":8569.929,"end":8597.707,"text":"那哪些地方會受到影響?包括我們比如說公使的登記啊公使的登記人家看你說你到底每天的工作是不是符合那個我們必須在這些公使的登記必須更完善那另外就是整個在保育啊或者是相關的部分我們這些法規的部分文件的部分必須更完善蘇洋你剛才說的沒錯他可能會針對比較是大的這些水產企業對不對可是我們的這些遠洋漁船是供貨給他們啊"},{"start":8598.968,"end":8608.493,"text":"所以你還是在一個供應鏈的關係上啊沒有錯所以如果他去要求這大的水產企業的時候間接的還是會影響到我們的遠洋漁業啊"},{"start":8610.441,"end":8627.725,"text":"所以我們在漁業與人權裏面有強調一個就是企業也要一起來做包括FIP的部分就是把前端這個管理面做好日後我們再因應這個禁止調查的部分就不會受到影響我直接問次長好不好次長我想問因為之前去年羅振偉有講到羅秉成政委其實有講到"},{"start":8630.346,"end":8656.799,"text":"針對歐盟的這個切永續禁止調查指令的上路那政府會先研究跟提供相關的指引跟輔導那我想問現在農業部或漁業署那目前這個指引跟輔導已經出來了嗎或什麼時候會出來目前指引的草案已經出來了而且已經經過了幾次會議的這樣的一個溝通那在六月底的時候還會再召開一次六月底過了"},{"start":8658.301,"end":8658.741,"text":"那預計什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":8674.11,"end":8701.573,"text":"跟委員報告有沒有時間表我們次長剛剛所解釋的就是針對漁船上的管理指引跟Wi-Fi的指引這部分我們大概近期資料收集完整以後近期就會再召開一次會議我們希望越早越好因為這是大概對臺灣來講很重要那另外我們針對Duty Leasing大概就是不同面向的去盤點法規的完備那這個部分我們希望剛剛次長講的應該是針對Wi-Fi的部分的指引嘛但我現在講的是針對DD的部分的話那這部分還沒有開始盤點嘛對不對"},{"start":8703.655,"end":8728.636,"text":"內部做盤點還沒有請外部來協助。那這個我們後期會加快效果。蘇長,什麼時候給一個時間點吧。什麼時候,我現在講的是針對滴滴法的部分。什麼時候能夠盤點結束?什麼時候指引跟輔導的措施可以推出?我們希望做一個務實而且也前瞻的。當然當然,我們都希望務實嘛。年底以前能夠有初步的查案能夠出來。年底嗎?年底會不會太久?現在幾月了?現在還有半年了,年底。三個月內可不可以?"},{"start":8729.911,"end":8754.31,"text":"好,我們盡力三個月內,好,那這部分麻煩,那我後面那個主席我再講一個事情我知道現在在農業部的願與人權行動裡面有講到說要做國際合作的部分的深化那你們有包括跟漁工的來源國要進行相關的合作我有聽說你們在這個要跟印尼簽署遠洋漁工保護的MOU那這個MOU目前的進展到什麼地方"},{"start":8755.918,"end":8782.985,"text":"目前我們已經把我們的草案提供給印尼那因為印尼他有相關部位在負責這個勞工的部分那目前包括駐印尼的代表處也在協助、協商那目前在等印尼方面的回饋相關的意見我想這個MOU有沒有邀請我們自己國內的NGO或者是漁工團體一起進來討論因為目前我們提出來的部分我聽說印尼"},{"start":8784.534,"end":8784.554,"text":"二、審"},{"start":8805.794,"end":8805.814,"text":"二、審"},{"start":8835.891,"end":8853.096,"text":"是所以這可以嗎?可以啊沒有問題那這個剛才說到兩個月的三個月的時間把滴滴法的相關的評估也包括指引輔導的措施要推出好不好這沒有問題好那到時候推出的請送外交國防委員會也包括經濟委員會因為還有很多協商細節的部分我們會來努力好謝謝謝謝洪聖恩委員來各位請回"},{"start":8862.349,"end":8864.089,"text":"我們請次長跟這個外交部的次長還有拉美斯的副司長"},{"start":8892.287,"end":8892.307,"text":"委員長。"},{"start":8899.36,"end":8926.903,"text":"市長 這個美國的入境戰爭學院拉丁美洲的研究所教授艾里斯他有說中國近期透過瓜地馬拉的這個媒體人士那用非常豪華的這種旅遊來去換取他發言比較親中那比較仇臺的言論我想請教這個這種試圖要影響臺灣跟瓜地馬拉的關係的這個部分大家有沒有掌握到有 謝謝我們這部分一直持續都在努力的掌握當中"},{"start":8927.844,"end":8943.358,"text":"那這一些具體其實很明顯就是開始已經直接就進入他們的媒體群然後甚至透過社群網路在做影響我國跟我們所剩不多的邦交國的這個邦誼的狀況之下我們有什麼反制的措施?"},{"start":8944.509,"end":8974.135,"text":"各位委員報告其實我們目前在邦交國在顧邦的措施方面其實不只行政部門、國會、智庫、媒體、意見領袖還有包括地方政府其實如果我們能夠握得手能夠接觸的對象只要能夠有助於我們鞏固邦交我們幾乎都竭盡全力希望能夠把這些關鍵的可以讓我們的邦交更鞏固的都會努力去做當然包括對於中國的步步進逼的訊息這些情報的收集也是我們重要的"},{"start":8975.597,"end":8990.315,"text":"所以這些媒體人士他到中國去落地招待之後,你有沒有比對他前後之間的對話,前後之間在攝取媒體的發言,前後之間在他所屬的這些節目的這些內容?"},{"start":8991.89,"end":9013.192,"text":"最主要呢是不是有每一個案例都有這樣做我們不敢這個特別的保證但是委員你剛剛特別提到一個重點如果他是真正產生意見的整個趨勢跟導向可以改變的話那當然我們要注意而且要防範而且我們不是只有說注意他的這個動向我們也有我們的反制措施包括"},{"start":9013.692,"end":9026.098,"text":"我們也有我們可以去協助我們這些比如說智庫或者媒體或者是學者也可以幫我們講話包括投書等等所以您剛剛所提的這個部分我們當然以後會繼續加強去了解判別"},{"start":9026.88,"end":9054.716,"text":"除了固邦當然另外一個很重要的就是隆邦我記得林教授部長他在宣誓的時候他說不僅要固邦還要隆邦所以這相關包含在中國在拉丁美洲地區的步步進逼也是我們重要的邦交國或前邦交國那如何確保我們的外交利益不用說到利害我認為ODA是一個方式各位具體來說明一下我們最近在拉丁美洲的一些相關的ODA的這些項目"},{"start":9056.217,"end":9081.258,"text":"最主要我想在拉丁在拉丁美洲地區呢因為我們在每一個邦交國甚至不只邦交國都有派遣包括農業方面公衛醫療資訊還有人道還有婦女婦權青年教育等等各種各樣的這種計劃但是我們林部長最近所這個接觸的這個所謂榮邦呢其實就是要借重"},{"start":9081.818,"end":9085.559,"text":"不僅是讓我們的友邦跟我們的關係更加鞏固而且是就它長期的永續發展它的產業的這種還有社會的韌性等等這些各個層面我們所具有優勢的地方包括作為他們比如說任何的產業的健檢體質還有他們對於未來發展尖端某種科技產業他們有什麼切入點"},{"start":9103.784,"end":9118.315,"text":"這些都是我們現在在努力的目標也就是說在民主、同盟跟所謂的經貿外交這三個三管旗下的策略方面那在拉丁美洲我們比如說在巴拉圭我們可以坐5G可以坐電動車可以有這個科學園區等等這些都是因為我們過去成功發展的經驗其實就是我們最專長的地方也可以貢獻的地方這個我要特別再補充"},{"start":9127.562,"end":9152.436,"text":"你剛剛講到五軍講到電動車這些我們專長的地方如果我們沒辦法做出差異化的話那我們的量絕對是輸給中國當然因為他們也在瓜地馬拉也會在巴拉圭做你上訴做的事情只不過是我們量的3倍到5倍甚至是10倍所以這個部分我是希望說可以具體來思考一下怎麼樣透過包含你可以說GCTF的跨國研議的合作不要只有我們一個人單打獨鬥"},{"start":9153.356,"end":9153.836,"text":"謝謝外交部,我們請農業部的漁業署署長"},{"start":9191.24,"end":9196.982,"text":"委員好,署長可不可以大致簡單說明目前臺灣的這些漁業的補貼措施的方向?"},{"start":9200.271,"end":9227.117,"text":"我們目前漁業補貼大概分成幾個部分第一個就是漁船作業的部分包括我們的用油補貼另外一個就是漁船作業安全的部分包括救生衣這些相關的補貼另外一個就是我們在漁業管理上包括我們補貼一些VMS的通訊費用這些相關的大概是目前我們這幾個的主要方向我大概簡單講大概就是漁業用油然後所有人的保險那還有AIS或者是船位監測系統VMS設備等等"},{"start":9228.437,"end":9246.847,"text":"我必須要強調這些補貼我們完全是支持但是組長我們目前雖然獲得歐盟取消黃牌但是我們還是遭美國列入同工與強迫勞動的製品清單裡面所以說我們在輔導的責任必須要兼顧國家的生育還有漁民的權益"},{"start":9248.268,"end":9248.588,"text":"於是,我們目前有兩個"},{"start":9275.481,"end":9275.501,"text":"二、審"},{"start":9300.262,"end":9318.307,"text":"我還是要強調十年前的特洪興遠洋的這個案件那是一個非常重要的警惕那我們能夠多做就多做是好謝謝蘇長好謝謝陳冠廷委員好各位請回接下來進行巡達的委員莊瑞雄委員莊瑞雄委員莊瑞雄委員不在"},{"start":9318.987,"end":9342.924,"text":"蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在中嘉兵委員、中嘉兵委員、中嘉兵委員不在楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員不在張祺凱委員、張祺凱委員、張祺凱委員不在吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員不在洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員不在接下來進行詢答委員是蔡易瑜委員"},{"start":9357.626,"end":9362.135,"text":"謝謝主席。那我們是不是有請我們外交部次長。來,次長請。蔡委員好。"},{"start":9369.232,"end":9392.22,"text":"市長,最近這個蒙古,外蒙,應該不應該稱外蒙,現在叫蒙古國,這樣的一個國家,最近在立法院鬧了很多笑話,甚至還在說蒙古還是中華民國的一部分,這個完全媚於國際事實。那基本上在今年6月5號的時候,"},{"start":9393.84,"end":9412.81,"text":"我們駐臺的這個烏蘭巴托的一個貿易經濟代表處特木爾他有來跟我見面那他有去講強調的是說臺灣人入境蒙古已經可以透過網路就可以申請電子簽證也就是e-visa"},{"start":9413.59,"end":9431.318,"text":"那對應的蒙古人來到臺灣是還沒有辦法有EVISA這樣的一個交流。那基於平等互惠的原則,是不是我們應該評估對蒙古也應該要來開放EVISA電子簽證呢?"},{"start":9432.839,"end":9451.598,"text":"報告委員,其實的確盟方對這個議題一直在遊說我們,所以他跟委員來提報這樣的事情,我們也覺得說這個事情一直在評估當中,但是我們有含括了很多各種的考量,所以目前是還沒有說做出最後決定的階段。"},{"start":9452.671,"end":9452.691,"text":"二、審"},{"start":9472.126,"end":9472.326,"text":"二、審二、審二、審"},{"start":9494.284,"end":9519.586,"text":"台灣跟蒙古的交流是很深厚的。是的。在蒙古他們的檢察官基本上都是要來台灣來授訓一段時間,然後再回到蒙古去做檢察官的一個去執行的任務。是,所以的確我剛剛有提到各方面。所以我們台灣跟蒙古有太多的交流,包括在在整個醫療方面也是有很深的交流。是。所以大概"},{"start":9520.367,"end":9520.387,"text":"二、審"},{"start":9551.288,"end":9571.685,"text":"市長你知道臺灣跟日本最近的地方在哪裡?是不是那個我不是亞太專家跟日本是不是宮古島還是沖繩還是納瓦我剛剛沒看到你嘴形"},{"start":9572.503,"end":9587.194,"text":"跟與納國大概就是臺灣跟澎湖的兩倍距離啦。臺灣跟澎湖大概是59嘛,跟與納國大概110公里。那由院長,由錫勳院長,前院長,他不斷地在推動臺灣跟與納國的執行。"},{"start":9592.788,"end":9616.404,"text":"所以他在他任內他有成功的一次性的一個執行但是那個一次性的執行事實上對於因為與納國在日本的納坝省沖繩所以他一定要把他的海關調來與納國那裡才讓我們這裡執行的人才從與納國直接入境但是這個與納國他這個島很特別啦他跟臺灣這麼近"},{"start":9617.845,"end":9623.988,"text":"日本人事實上都說這個島跟日本太遠跟臺灣太近所以那個島與那國島的日本人講台語捏"},{"start":9634.467,"end":9657.696,"text":"我現在是一直在想說我們能不能透過外交部你們來遊說來跟日本這邊溝通能不能讓與那國的這個海關他們的關口變成常態化那臺灣人到與那國不管是這個執行後的這一個交流一定是非常的興盛"},{"start":9658.929,"end":9669.566,"text":"因為你看臺灣人你只要我們到澎湖大概現在一個半小時就到了所以你到漁納國三個小時就到了你早知道7點出發你最早就要在日本吃做船嗎?做船阿"},{"start":9671.088,"end":9687.094,"text":"做船阿你現在因為沒有執行我們現在要去尼拉古要怎麼去你知道嗎我們必須要先坐飛機先坐飛機到沖繩要坐飛機到沖繩然後再從飛機再轉機到尼拉古就是因為要入境的這個問題當然這個不是我們國內的問題我們國內是有這樣的期待但是日本看起來"},{"start":9696.734,"end":9702.278,"text":"他們可能會反而說,啊,漁那國的國民可能會比較愛臺灣還是什麼,覺得臺灣比較好,說他們要做臺灣人,這個我不知道啦。過去曾經,漁那國曾經有這樣的一個倡議啦,他們要加入臺灣,啊,不管。"},{"start":9712.686,"end":9731.264,"text":"我是覺得來推動如果臺灣可以跟與那國執行那與那國這邊如果可以開放讓臺灣人可以直接入境我覺得對於我們臺日間的交流又在這麼近的一個距離裡面會是一個很棒的交流我覺得外交部可以去努力看看好不好好謝謝委員的建議我們來努力看看"},{"start":9731.564,"end":9747.749,"text":"好,好,加油,謝謝。謝謝。啊,守航要走下去。對,我直接替你說這句,如果建立關卡守航的話,我們就跨委員會邀請蔡議員。好,感恩,謝謝召委。啊,蒙古的那個一通關的話,有的話你也跑一下蒙古。好,我八月去。謝謝蔡議員。"},{"start":9750.81,"end":9775.134,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃仁委員、林黛樺委員、張家俊委員、楊瓊英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆聯席會各委員並複資聯席會另外有口頭約定的時間以口頭約定時間為準"},{"start":9780.956,"end":9802.404,"text":"現在我們要開始審查這三個案子首先我們審查討論事項第一案請議事人員宣讀名稱及條文馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書漁業補貼協定第一條放為第二條定義第三條有助非法未報告及不受規範漁撈行為之補貼第四條涉及已過於漁群之補貼"},{"start":9807.046,"end":9833.271,"text":"第五條,其他補貼。第六條,低度開發國家會員之特殊規範。第七條,技術援助和能力建構。第八條,通知及透明。第九條,機構安排。第十條,爭端解決。第十一條,最終條款。第十二條,如果未採用全面的規範則終止協定。宣讀完畢。在場各位委員,對於第一案的通過有沒有意義?"},{"start":9835.199,"end":9846.262,"text":"沒有的話我們第一案照案通過提報院會接下來審查討論事項第二案及第三案請醫生員宣讀第二案名稱及要旨。"},{"start":9848.311,"end":9859.858,"text":"中華民國（臺灣（政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣（與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書。中華民國（臺灣（政府只依照1969年5月23日之維也納條約法公約通知薩爾多"},{"start":9865.822,"end":9874.43,"text":"共和國政府（中華民國（臺灣政府決定停止與薩爾瓦多共和國兼施行臺薩洪自由貿易協定並將至2023年5月15日起生效。宣讀完畢。好,就第二案的部分,各位有沒有異議?"},{"start":9888.864,"end":9901.87,"text":"第二案照案通過提報院會第三案因為是條約中止案依照慣例不予宣讀所以第三案各位有沒有意見沒有的話我們第三案也照案通過提報院會"},{"start":9906.398,"end":9931.189,"text":"今日馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書及其漁業補貼協定案有關部分停止中華民國（臺灣（政府與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書案以及終止前開自由貿易協定等三案業宜審查完略分別擬據審查報告提報院會請問在場委員院會審議前是否交由黨團協商"},{"start":9938.097,"end":9939.698,"text":"二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二、審二"},{"start":9964.905,"end":9965.786,"text":"韓國瑜主席韓國瑜主席"},{"start":9987.552,"end":9987.572,"text":"二、審"}]}},{"id":"16059","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16059","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eaae5f17226264b1aad6a76734f73991824f242ceca9577839e6cfce84e12755135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會公聽會（事由：「公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-03","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-03T08:31:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:08:00+08:00","duration":13017,"影片長度":"03:36:57","委員發言時間":"08:31:03 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國立中心大學國家政策與公共衛生事務研究所助理教授謝正翊 前東吳大學政治學系教授呂思翰 原住民族青年社會實踐協會理事"},{"start":2093.173,"end":2115.729,"text":"陳張培倫國立東華大學民主事務與發展學系副教授劉嘉威國立台北大學公共行政計政學系教授張嘉穎東武大學法學系及法律學系特聘教授林志傑國立陽明交通大學科技法律學院特聘教授"},{"start":2121.402,"end":2138.597,"text":"許冠哲 經濟民主聯合副秘書長李彥榮 山海公民參量行動發言人陳柏惟 前立法委員張柏楊 高雄市議員"},{"start":2141.663,"end":2154.891,"text":"簡年佑 國立政治大學 土地政策與環境規劃原住民專班學生劉淑冰 東大學政治學系教授接下來介紹我們的委員今天出席的委員有張志倫委員"},{"start":2167.932,"end":2187.434,"text":"那接下來介紹我們出席的這個列席的政府機關代表首先介紹的是我們內政部常務次長吳唐安吳次長民政司代理司長鄭英宏鄭代理司長科長蔡明謙科長"},{"start":2189.721,"end":2204.068,"text":"中央選舉委員會選務處處長 余淑儀原駐民主委員會常務副主任委員 鍾新華法務部法制司副司長 謝志明"},{"start":2209.419,"end":2209.599,"text":"公職人員選舉委員"},{"start":2226.271,"end":2226.411,"text":"主席"},{"start":2242.183,"end":2258.578,"text":"發言臺正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言結束則按鈴兩聲我們現在是不是請部會先做簡短的報告首先請內政部吳唐安常務次長報告"},{"start":2270.729,"end":2295.697,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生首先對於各位委員對於內政業務推動的關注跟指導表示由衷的感謝那今天貴委員會召開公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進公聽會本部應邀報告也深感榮幸那我想針對公聽會所列的討論提綱也僅將本部的意見則要說明如下那也敬請參閱這次的書面報告"},{"start":2298.538,"end":2303.709,"text":"有關總統、副總統與立法委員選舉是否可先行辦理原住民之不在籍投票"},{"start":2304.998,"end":2334.347,"text":"基於全國性公民投票實施不在籍投票系公民投票法明文已有規定也據社會共識建議優先實施至於對人的選舉不在籍投票為確保政策的成功實施也避免社會的疑慮本部認為疑是全國性公投實施後再行審慎推動那此外如緊就原住民選民先行採行不在籍投票移轉投票能可能有因部分"},{"start":2335.816,"end":2336.397,"text":"公職人員選舉"},{"start":2354.781,"end":2366.941,"text":"國情跟選舉文化都有不同那採行的方式也不一樣那基於選務作業的可行性並兼顧投票秘密及社會信任度我國應以移轉投票方式教具社會共識"},{"start":2368.414,"end":2396.29,"text":"至於實施不在籍投票﹚就依令定專法或採修正相關法規已結外國立法的例都不一其中日本、韓國、英國及新加坡系規範在選舉法規而美國菲律賓則是循訂定專法為之而我國是針對全國性公民投票實施不在籍投票依照公民投票法第25條規定系以令定專法方式辦理"},{"start":2397.912,"end":2422.791,"text":"有關如何修法以保障原住民的參政權依照現行公職選報法第57條第一項及第三項選委會可將原住民公職人員選舉與其他公職人員選舉分設不同的投票所投票這個部分是並無設修法又單獨設置原住民投票所使選舉人集中應可有效解決原住民"},{"start":2425.232,"end":2446.311,"text":"選舉人過少而衍生之投票的秘密問題那在113年的總統副總統及立法委員選舉中選會跟地方的選委會系已會同地方政府原住民事務主管機關來加強宣導那也朝集中設置原住民公職人員選舉投票方式辦理那使原住民的選舉人數一人"},{"start":2448.226,"end":2475.416,"text":"之投票所的比例也顯著下降那我想未來再因持續加強提高徵詢原住民選舉人異動的意願回復率那以為原住民的秘密投票那第四有關原住民立法委員缺額的處理的規範檢討查大院高經委員樹梅及吳委員麗華及盧委員憲一都已經有分別提案建議原住民的立法委員應比照區域立委於初學時應立即補選"},{"start":2476.856,"end":2503.702,"text":"基於原住民立法委員與區域立法委員同屬立法委員與區域立法委員出缺為相同處理本部竟表尊重但因原住民立法委員補選所設選務經費相較於區域立委補選增加也許多所以選務執行成本需要為通盤考量是否要甄列原住民立法委員出缺地補制度已結"},{"start":2504.827,"end":2527.466,"text":"考量現行區域立委欲有出缺情勢時﹐僅有補選方式予以補時﹐對於原住民立委單獨增列出缺地補的規範之妥適性﹐有待商榷﹐如意增訂﹐建議﹐地補室友及落選人地補的資格等級﹐也參照地方民意代表的規定來辦理"},{"start":2529.514,"end":2532.883,"text":"有關原住民是不是可以得參與一般選區之選舉議題依照"},{"start":2537.574,"end":2564.802,"text":"公職選報法相關規定原住民的公職人員選舉是以具有原住民身份為選舉人又候選人因需具選舉人資格自然需有原住民身份因此原住民的選舉人依法僅得登記為原住民立法委員選舉候選人如欲開放原住民區域參與區域立委的選舉這部分會試射原住民的參政權益之調整牽涉甚廣那未來未具"},{"start":2566.303,"end":2580.28,"text":"社會在未具充分共識前建議是以維持現行的規定來為宜有關針對是否應修法在既有的罷免門檻下令清真同意票數 超過被罷免人當選得票數的議題"},{"start":2583.107,"end":2601.976,"text":"罷免為我國憲法明定賦予人民之權利現行公職選報法有關罷免各項門檻規範是基於避免門檻過高而限制人民行使罷免權之行使的考量由立法委員提案將罷免的提議連署門檻"},{"start":2603.977,"end":2632.907,"text":"分別由原選舉區的選舉人數的百分之二十三調降到百分之一及百分之十通過門檻則修訂為有效同意票數多於不同意票數且同意票數達原選舉區選舉人數四分之一以上在考量民意系隨著不同時空的環境的變動於選舉投票時選民同意反對或中立不投票這都是對於罷免案通過與否的表態"},{"start":2634.508,"end":2660.949,"text":"是否要調高通過門檻：這也應是社會的共識的程度來審慎橫著再來第7點有關現行公職選罷法第75條第一項的規定意旨那在該條已經明文公職人員之罷免得由原選舉區選舉人向選舉委員會提出罷免案但就職未滿一年者不得罷免意旨"},{"start":2661.806,"end":2684.484,"text":"公職人員罷免案之提議 需待公職人員就職滿一年 使得向選舉委員會提出那在相關的規範已經明確 應無修正之必要那以上說明 敬請各位委員及各位學者先進指教 謝謝謝謝吳次長 接下來請原住民委員會的鍾新華副主任委員報告"},{"start":2693.345,"end":2719.54,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位專家學者 大家早本會受邀列席本次的公聽會備感榮幸依據憲法修正條文第10條第12項明確地規範國家因應民族的意願來保障原住民族的參政與政治參與意志凡能進一步保障原住民族政治參與之政策以及選務機關能妥適執行之政策方向"},{"start":2720.68,"end":2743.938,"text":"本會原則上均以致詞 以下僅就本次的公聽會說明本會的意見一 針對總統 副總統與立法委員的選舉可否先行辦理原住民不在籍投票議案不在籍投票是在一般民主國家已經實行多年並視為應提供給選民的基本服務考量原住民選舉正副總統與立法委員"},{"start":2744.835,"end":2745.115,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2769.955,"end":2775.038,"text":"在保障原住民投票秘密的立場在法治上應如何修法來保障原住民的參政權"},{"start":2797.509,"end":2826.673,"text":"基於信任度以及公正性的考量建議以移轉投票的方式為法制方式以及任由選民本人親自在投票當日前往投票所投票其可行性以及實施的方式較為國人所能接受公職人員選舉罷免法中缺額後續處置的制度應該如何調整以保障原住民參政權跟適時彌補民意缺口"},{"start":2827.728,"end":2854.629,"text":"依據現行的規定原住民立法委員的選舉區因故產生缺額應該符合同一選舉區內缺額達半數之條件 使能辦理補選區域立法委員補選則無上開限制同為立法委員卻有不同的補選規定依大院法治局研究報告建議規定一致是為可行的一個修法方向"},{"start":2855.822,"end":2878.496,"text":"次按照憲法徵修條文明文規定應尊重原住民族意願保障其政治參與之意旨原住民立法委員補選規範之修正若有助於提升原住民族參政權之保障本會競表之詞至於應採補選依後替補事設選務規劃以及執行可行性之專業評估本會注重內政部以及中央選舉委員會之權責第五"},{"start":2881.533,"end":2898.926,"text":"原住民參與一般選舉區的選舉是否需先先行放棄原住民身份以後在一定的時間內選擇參與原住民選區後一般選區即可按我國現行中央及地方公職人員選舉才非原住民原住民分別保障"},{"start":2900.706,"end":2914.421,"text":"區分為一般選區以及原住民選區過去實務上確實發生原住民為了參選一般選區而放棄原住民身份之例子為原住民得否放棄身份而於一定的時間內選擇參與原住民選區或一般選區一節應施設國家選舉制度及調整"},{"start":2920.785,"end":2946.76,"text":"建議進行大院徵詢法令主管機關的意見中上首述公職人員選舉罷免制度如何設計之條以及調整得以實質促進原住民族參政權之優化提升因為涉及國家整體選舉制度以及選務技術性細節性等專業規範規劃本會尊重內政部以及中央選舉委員會之權責以上的說明也敬請各位委員以及各位專家先進指導謝謝"},{"start":2949.448,"end":2956.232,"text":"主席在場的學者專家各位機關的代表 大家早安 大家好"},{"start":2978.954,"end":3007.522,"text":"我是泰陵法律事務所業心願律師剛來的路上記者把我攔下來問我說我今天是不是代表謝國良、謝市長來我要嚴正的否認因為我並沒有被謝國良市長委任辦理這個相關的案件完全是立法院找我來然後就我的理解這個法律就算修正大概也不太可能適用到基隆的罷免案所以我覺得這個事情應該要脫離一般罷免案件來做思考那我們法律才能夠可長可久這是我要先說的"},{"start":3008.82,"end":3009.662,"text":"我們今天針對公職人員選罷法的精進"},{"start":3019.336,"end":3034.747,"text":"我想我比較會針對調整罷免門檻跟就職未滿一年就進行罷免這兩件事來做討論可能就主要包括了罷免權的依據跟制度目的罷免案投票的門檻還有96年到105年版的擺盪還有修正的建議然後針對就職未滿一年這個到底應該怎麼處理"},{"start":3042.072,"end":3068.207,"text":"我們從選法法第75條的制度目的跟就職委員每一年的解釋方式來做討論最後是結語我想回到罷免權的依據跟制度目的我們大家知道憲法第18條本來就有規定說人民有選舉、罷免、創制、覆決的權利那制度的目的是為了要監督民選公職人員要淘汰不適任的人員時期提前拒職那相類似的手段當然還有彈劾跟糾舉那彈劾的話原則上就是"},{"start":3069.745,"end":3085.662,"text":"對於公職人員有違法實職的行為有承接機關來做處理就舉人員的上職不包括名義代表的所以罷免他是有他的制度必要性的罷免門檻其實就會變成關鍵為什麼你門檻很高的話你根本做不到那制度就會形同虛設"},{"start":3086.972,"end":3103.157,"text":"也沒辦法達成憲法上面罷免的目的罷免可能如果太低的話呢變成好像就會變成少數挾持多數那這個其實就反過來打敗了我們原來民主是希望多數跟少數這個兩個以多數來決定多數決定失誤的這個目的那96年版跟105年黨的這個擺盪在選辦法90條本來是投票人數"},{"start":3115.261,"end":3129.357,"text":"二分之一加上投票數的二分之一雙二分之一來做一個門檻然後呢到了這個105年版就把二分之一很快速的大幅降到四分之一那這個當然就是為了罷免權榮譽行使"},{"start":3131.1,"end":3156.456,"text":"我們回頭看看在105年修正之前104年立委罷免案是不會過的105年也沒過106年的里長不管是立委、鄉長、里長的罷免案都沒有過顯然是看起來投票率都到不了50%的門檻106年起總共有22案有12案是沒有通過的同意票數沒有到達門檻有5案是不同意的是多數"},{"start":3157.372,"end":3160.16,"text":"有6萬是通過的投票率最高是67.7%幾乎68%最低是27%"},{"start":3166.695,"end":3169.517,"text":"罷免案數量激增會不會成為落選者報復的工具或是政黨的惡鬥立法院在100年的研究報告指出一個問題如果是小選區單一選區只選出一個不管是民意代表或是行政首長"},{"start":3188.692,"end":3205.614,"text":"會出現罷免門檻這個罷免的票數會低於當選票數的問題等於是少數的罷免票罷免了多數的票數選出來的首長或立委那這個似乎是欠缺正當性的"},{"start":3206.054,"end":3231.63,"text":"那回過來在大選區的選舉制度一個選區選出多數民意代表我們現在大概知道議員都是這樣選的反過來你的罷免門檻罷免的票數會大於他的當選票數這也欠缺合理性所以這個東西到底應該怎麼設計其實立法院100年的研究報告就在討論這個問題不是 我要再講一遍真的不是為了某一位市長或是某一位委員要被罷免來討論這件事"},{"start":3233.411,"end":3252.7,"text":"所以現在會變成說同意票只需要達到總選舉人數的四分之一就可以通過罷免案會導致罷免的同意票小於原當選票數所以如果要回到一個比較有民主正當性的修正方向的話是不是一種可能性的思考就是說"},{"start":3253.291,"end":3281.491,"text":"你的投票結果除了有效的同意票數多於不同意的票數以外必須要多於被罷免人的原得票數才算通過如果沒有超過原來的得票數的話極為否決我覺得這是一個可以考慮的一個修法方向我還是要再強調一次立法院看起來就算要修正通過的話也不會適用在這次的基隆罷免案所以不要把它跟基隆罷免案掛上一個等號"},{"start":3282.973,"end":3299.492,"text":"再來針對選法法第75條的規定我回來講一下就是我們一般的選舉投票跟罷免案它其實會有一個不一樣的地方在我們一般的選舉案的時候大部分來講我們是一個正面動員兩個政黨當然我們會看到政黨去說你這個人有什麼問題那個人有什麼問題你這個政黨有什麼問題"},{"start":3302.659,"end":3317.488,"text":"那另一方面也是很積極提出正面的政見告訴大家說我這個政黨我這個候選人我希望積極的去做什麼事來服務我的選區的人民我要提出什麼建設但是在罷免案呢它是一個負面動員仇恨動員"},{"start":3318.408,"end":3340.825,"text":"基本上說這個市長很壞這個立委很爛這個議員根本就在擺爛每天就是搞笑他其實是仇恨指數高的時候可能會達到門檻所以他其實跟我們一般在選舉的時候會吸引出的選民其實是不完全相同的而且基本上在一般的選舉我們會發生另外一個狀況就是一般選舉因為是全國一起選"},{"start":3342.686,"end":3371.409,"text":"執政黨比較沒有辦法把資源集中在單一選區去做操作所以我們可以發現說如果針對一個單一選區在做選舉罷免的時候它的結果往往會跟全國一起選舉的時候效果會有偏差所以我覺得這個部分大家也要去思考一下這跟門檻它所形成的聯動效應回到選法法第75條的規定跟爭議選法法第75條一項但書其實寫得很明白就職位滿一年者不得罷免"},{"start":3371.997,"end":3391.576,"text":"那當然實務上就有爭議啦什麼叫不得罷免呢是說不能提出罷免提議嗎是不能進行連署嗎還是不能產生罷免結果我到底可不可以辦很多造勢活動去收集罷免提議的提議書或連署書呢其實這邊其實就回到一個問題你如果是希望淘汰不適任的民選公職員又有一年的規定"},{"start":3392.176,"end":3415.183,"text":"你不希望它成為政黨惡鬥的工具你顯然應該要等到一年以後應該才去進行相關的活動恐怕才是比較妥當的所以我會認為說在這樣的情況下我們的修正方向應該是不得欲為罷免提議書的蒐集可能比較妥適時間剩下45秒我順便再提一下就是其實我那天去正好去上一個"},{"start":3416.372,"end":3423.238,"text":"彈劃性節目我旁邊的是張綺凱張委員他就說他們民眾黨其他的委員之前在"},{"start":3424.437,"end":3449.272,"text":"目前的執政黨服務他就說他們以前在當公職人員的時候也有幫忙做聯署那這個聯署就是我手上有什麼選民名冊然後我反正就有選民的姓名他的出生年月日跟他的地址我就直接幫他抄了就幫他簽名了那現行這個聯署狀況有沒有辦法被杜絕沒有因為你沒有他的身份證影本等等所以會有出現被聯署的狀況"},{"start":3450.551,"end":3453.353,"text":"主席、各位學者專家、各位先進、各位大家好"},{"start":3477.501,"end":3497.154,"text":"我就這個罷免制度提出口頭說明提出五點的重點關於原住民的議題我這邊就不討論第一點就是說在我全世界的比較政治的制度來看事實上中央層級的罷免制度其實在全世界並不普遍"},{"start":3498.315,"end":3514.875,"text":"不論是總統選舉還是總統還是國會議員其實都很少有罷免制度那如果我們觀察全世界的幾個成熟穩定的民主國家例如英國、美國、德國、日本、法國這一國家這些國家的國會議員事實上都沒有罷免制度都沒有罷免制度"},{"start":3515.416,"end":3516.076,"text":"公職人員選舉"},{"start":3536.562,"end":3537.122,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進"},{"start":3558.809,"end":3582.561,"text":"的這樣的國家到底有什麼國家事實上只有如果我沒有查錯的話只有波利維亞、厄瓜多、委內瑞拉然後就中華民國就是所有的民選公職都有罷免制度了就全世界就只有罕見這幾個國家而已這是第一點這是我對全世界各國的比較政治提出這樣一個第一個觀察第二點我要講就是說"},{"start":3583.962,"end":3586.565,"text":"為什麼國會議員在全世界罷免制度並不普遍我想跟民主政治所講的大義理論這涉及到學理的問題大義理論是有關係的一般來說到底一個國會議員如何代表選民"},{"start":3606.105,"end":3625.619,"text":"這樣的一個議題有兩種論點一種是委任說一種是全權委託說那委任說的觀點我這邊講的簡單一點就是說委任說的觀點是認為說國會議員被選出來的時候他就是要忠實的完全反映選區的民意然後要像一面鏡子一樣反映民意那你就是要反映你選區選民的意見"},{"start":3626.9,"end":3650.841,"text":"那就是在這樣的代議理論之下在委任說這樣的觀點之下那才有這個罷免制度這樣的一種制度的延伸也就是說罷免制度是在反映這種所謂委任說的觀點這個委任說在憲法上又稱為叫強制委任或稱命令委任那另外一種代議理論是權權委託說那個在憲法上又稱為叫自由委任那這種觀點是認為說我們國議員被人民選出來之後被選民選出來之後"},{"start":3654.304,"end":3678.48,"text":"它是可以做自己的獨立判斷的因為我們會期待說我們的國會不只是一個各地方狹隘利益的集合體而已我們選出的國會議員他應該是要代表全國民意然後全國的利益實踐國家整體的公共利益所以他是代表全國的選民的這叫全權委託說或是自由委任說我們憲法62條規定說我們看我們憲法規定說立法院為國家最高立法機關"},{"start":3684.424,"end":3701.696,"text":"由人民選出的立委所組成,代表人民行使立法權那個條文當然寫得很精簡不過在條文上所講的代表人民行使立法權不是代表選區的人民所以在我們憲法通說上會認為說我們的立法委員他其實是應該是反映自由委任書的觀點選權委託書的觀點"},{"start":3704.238,"end":3710.666,"text":"那如果從這角度來思考就是說我們憲法第17條規定人權條款規定人民有選舉罷免創制覆決第133條規定說被選舉人得由原選舉區依法罷免資那這裡就有一個地方值得思考就是說"},{"start":3721.34,"end":3747.005,"text":"在這樣的規定之下是不是就代表說由選區選出的各種民選公職人員公職人員都要適用罷免制度這其實是值得斟酌的啦因為在我國目前是好像都認為說公職人員被人民選出來之後那罷免就是天經地義的事情那我覺得這部分其實罷免制度是不是要全部適用在所有公職人員身上這是值得思考的那從這一點我可以進步在這一個小節就是說"},{"start":3748.925,"end":3775.445,"text":"國議員他雖然是選區選民選出來的不過他除了一方面在實務上代表這個地方選民地方的選民之外他也是要對代表全民的對全國人民負責的所以而且一方面我說國議員在議會中他其實合意制他不是一個單一一個人所做決定會影響到這個是合意制而且是在政黨政策運作之下那個如果說因為個人政見議題的問題被選民罷免我覺得他合理性是值得斟酌的"},{"start":3776.606,"end":3791.433,"text":"相交於之下地方的行政首長因為他是對地方人民負責他是獨任制他的職責是進行決策跟執政的所以有罷免制度我想是合理的這是第二點第三點我要強調就是說事實上不同公職人員因為他們職務性質不同選舉制度不同選出的方式不同"},{"start":3800.757,"end":3820.513,"text":"所以都要適用同樣罷免的門檻其實是不盡合理的那這邊如果我們把焦點再進一步延伸到地方的民意代表因為我們地方的民意代表是採複數歧視選區的相對多數字也就是說我舉個例子比如我們台北市議員他應選名額可能有選區應選名額10個那可能第10名當選他得票率可能就在5%、7%、8%就當選了那其實有90%以上的選民都沒有投給他"},{"start":3826.237,"end":3829.519,"text":"議員代表選區中的少數利益代表選區中多元利益的反應所以有人認為說我們地方議員的罷免門檻罷免投票通過的票數會遠高於當選票數所以認為說要"},{"start":3847.772,"end":3867.64,"text":"認為是門檻過高而要把門檻降低我覺得這樣的論點邏輯是可義的是值得斟酌的總之我覺得在我們複數席次選區的制度之下其實一個罷免制度要設立門檻是非常困難的一件事情都會留於主觀性這是我要強調第三點總之我要講說就是職務不同職務的性質不同選舉制度不同"},{"start":3871.781,"end":3895.193,"text":"在不同的性質不同跟選舉制度不同的情況之下同樣適用相同的罷免的門檻跟程序其實是有待商榷的第四點我覺得進入到一個比較後面的結論從一個比較radical比較根本激進的角度來看我會認為我們立法委員的罷免制度它的存廢"},{"start":3896.434,"end":3923.504,"text":"甚至是可以考量的就是說我們國會議員的罷免制度真的要存在嗎是值得斟酌的甚至地方議員的罷免制度是不是真的要存在我覺得也值得斟酌因為他們罷免的門檻其實不容易設定的我覺得罷免制度比較能夠適用的是在地方的行政首長但我們總統選舉因為是憲法規定那個是另外一個議題我們這邊就不討論不過最後一點我要談的就是說還剩30秒就是說我們"},{"start":3924.924,"end":3940.166,"text":"不論這次我們現在罷免的門檻怎麼修正我覺得目前這樣的修改方向是好的我是支持的不過因為我們憲法第8條規定說立法委員增加自己的報酬或是待遇規定要從次屆體實施也就是要有利益迴避的這樣的原則"},{"start":3941.047,"end":3941.827,"text":"蘇子喬教授接下來請紀和鈞教授"},{"start":3981.385,"end":3999.656,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位學者代理專家今天很高興能參加這個公聽會針對公聽會因為所要參考的議題太多所以我還是比較聚焦在所謂的罷免門檻的"},{"start":4001.073,"end":4027.49,"text":"修正的這個部分我本身我因為是這個流發的背景所以當時我想這個大院邀請我來可能也是希望我能夠介紹一點這個外國法的概念這個法國的制度跟我們很不一樣是什麼就是他從頭到尾都沒有說人民應該罷免罷免他的公職人員那這個"},{"start":4030.139,"end":4034.703,"text":"而且因為他透過大家都知道他總統是兩輪選舉再加上他的議員就是現在正在進行的法國的國民議會的議員他基本上也是兩輪選舉所以他的一個選舉基本上當選人已經經過了重重的競爭他選上了"},{"start":4053.416,"end":4076.402,"text":"所以他們會認為說你再把他罷免掉這個等於是他有個隱藏的關卡過了一年後他這個隱藏關卡突然又爆發了讓他再選第三次這其實本身是不合理的但是在法國的這個制度裡面有沒有人曾經想要說我們學一下美國學一下拉丁美洲國家的這個罷免制度有在這個2021年就是"},{"start":4078.642,"end":4092.409,"text":"他現在的這個我們講的極左派的政黨叫做不屈法國這個黨呢是有提出一個法律修正他們的選舉法典就是他們所有的選舉法放在一個叫選舉法典裡面這個不好意思我看一下那個條文"},{"start":4101.667,"end":4127.307,"text":"他這個條文是這樣他在選舉法典裡面的這個總章這個部分呢偵涉了這個所謂的77之一條77之一條那麼很有趣他認為既然要罷免那就所有人都可以被罷免所以呢他的77條之一這修正草案的77條之一的第一項就是什麼就是罷免法國共和國總統我要罷免他"},{"start":4130.009,"end":4133.01,"text":"罷免中央級的國會議員 參議員 國民議員 國民議會的議員我們講眾議員也可以第三個就是罷免地方的各種公職人員可是很特別的是他都沒有特別講他的門檻"},{"start":4155.762,"end":4160.726,"text":"都沒有特別講他的門檻所以當年也不是當年我們現在是2024年2022年在討論這個案子在也是類似於我們的法國國會國民議會的內政委員會在討論這個案子的時候當時的主流的這個政黨連他這個極左派的不屈法國的政黨的這個議員還有他這個國民議會的報告呢都說了一個問題第一個"},{"start":4186.092,"end":4200.584,"text":"我們為什麼要行使罷免制度其實這個也是我們一直要問的問題那第二個問題就是那我們怎麼去設定他的這個門檻第三個設定了這樣的一個制度他真的能夠穩定這個民主的運作嗎"},{"start":4204.594,"end":4212.137,"text":"所以最後這個案子連在內政委員會都沒有通過為什麼 連他極左派的不屈法國這個黨的黨內都出現了很大的爭議所以後來我們在因為受這個大院邀請在這個公聽會的這個準備的時候我特別去看了一些相關的這個法國的重要的一些學者的討論他們的理由是什麼 他們的理由是"},{"start":4231.533,"end":4251.017,"text":"每次的選舉基本上就是一次定期的考核啦那麼我們應該要讓這個被考核的人這個被選上的公職人員有一個穩定的時程讓他去完成他要做的事情而不是他一選上以後他就在想下次我的罷免選舉在哪裡"},{"start":4255.256,"end":4282.03,"text":"我在這個我們在2016年這個就是105年的這個修正版本的時候當時我就覺得非常奇怪的是我們不是應該讓我們的工人員有一定的時間有一定的期限讓他能夠穩定的去做推行他的政策嗎或推行他的理念嗎可是現在不是現在是只要剛選完一年後馬上你的"},{"start":4283.71,"end":4309.839,"text":"對你的施政或對你的意見或對你的觀點不同意的人他就立刻提出什麼提案書聯署書那你想每一個公職人員他在頭一年裡面他想的到底是推行他的政策還是落實他的觀點還是想的是我要想一想有沒有人會用罷免制度把握什麼"},{"start":4311.244,"end":4322.781,"text":"進入延長賽那這樣對我們的民主真的穩定嗎這個我是請大院多多思考另外一個我也必須要講就是"},{"start":4323.86,"end":4348.402,"text":"其實我們今天講這個中央公職人員選舉除了總統、總統、副總統這個罷免因為我們這個憲法有相關規定這個一回事以外我們要講這個我們的這個立法委員層級的選舉其實是有三分之一人是不可能被罷免的為什麼他們是不分區啊怎麼罷免他那想想看那這樣是不是在委員本身就出現了什麼"},{"start":4350.08,"end":4361.977,"text":"立法資格上面的不平等有沒有想過這種事情而且這個我們盜保官很早就說不分區是因為他是代表政黨的我們不可以把他罷免掉那為什麼不行"},{"start":4363.309,"end":4379.667,"text":"如果可以罷就可以罷為什麼不能罷我就說我把你罷掉你就從原來的名單裡面再推選一個人不就好了嗎可是我們大法官說不好所以可見大法官本身對於這個罷免制度也是採取什麼存疑的態度"},{"start":4381.519,"end":4392.247,"text":"再來我必須要講的是大家今天因為這個公聽會這個時間點似乎好像這個就像前面幾位先進所發言似乎好像有這麼這個時間點上有點尷尬的地方但是我必須要講的是因為我們的這個選舉罷免選罷法的這個罷免制度是通行於除了總統以外通行於其他的選舉這個各級的公職人員"},{"start":4410.336,"end":4415.618,"text":"大家要注意我們現在最常被罷免的是里長大家想想看里長有的里很大有的里很小我們用同樣的一個制度所以里長們被這個事情搞得是非常非常頭痛 為什麼"},{"start":4431.994,"end":4450.711,"text":"我才剛當選我還沒做什麼事情我就被我的敵對的或者競爭對手發起要罷免而且因為他的提案只要1%就好那個你很小一下就提案了一下就連署成功了一下就要開始進行選舉了這樣真的好嗎"},{"start":4454.994,"end":4456.114,"text":"接下來請劉家威教授"},{"start":4490.231,"end":4506.042,"text":"主席 各位委員 還有機關代表以及我們在座的各位學術監禁媒體朋友還有議事人員大家好 大家辛苦了今天非常高興收邀到大院來分享我對這些議題的看法"},{"start":4506.783,"end":4507.944,"text":"第6點和第7點有關於罷免門檻還有75條有關於提起罷免一年的認定問題"},{"start":4525.363,"end":4525.604,"text":"公職人員選舉委員"},{"start":4545.919,"end":4567.396,"text":"基隆罷免現在也進入了一個非常高漲的階段我本身對於這個議題的討論我想也是需要把它分開的也就是說這次的修法的公聽會所討論的內容它必須是跟目前正在進行的一些罷免的提議"},{"start":4568.237,"end":4596.853,"text":"或是罷免的連署必須是分開的那這樣子罷免的設計制度上不管是門檻或是第7點有關於一年內的提議的部分應該都不能因人設事不是因為說我們現在的金融正在進行罷免的連署或是哪一個里的里長或是哪一個地方的烽火連天的罷免議員或者是立法委員的罷免"},{"start":4598.053,"end":4609.923,"text":"我們需要把這樣的修法議題跟它扣在一起我認為不是的這樣子的罷免如果這個制度上的設計有改變的話我認為應該要有一個日出條款也就是未來我們什麼時候才需要開始進行這些制度的日出條款從什麼時候開始做我想這個是我發言的一個前提"},{"start":4625.796,"end":4635.783,"text":"以下就來就今天的這兩點來做一個討論首先是第6點的部分有關於選罷法的90條就是罷免門檻的問題"},{"start":4640.566,"end":4663.821,"text":"的確如提綱所言我們可以看到是有一些少數否決的狀況少數否決的狀況那特別這樣子的少數否決呢他是發生在單一選區的制度裡面那以我國現行的制度而言單一選區呢包含了總統包含了"},{"start":4664.121,"end":4664.921,"text":"公職人員．事由．事由"},{"start":4680.751,"end":4695.188,"text":"這個單一選區我們會發現因為它是單一選區所以它的得票數依照杜瓦傑法則基本上它都會是過半或是幾乎過半這樣的情況"},{"start":4696.249,"end":4696.409,"text":"公職人員選舉法實務現況精進"},{"start":4717.414,"end":4742.284,"text":"當然過去的修法是因為罷免不容易執行不容易成立甚至不容易通過所以發生這樣子的情形做了一個修法這個修法其實也有幾年下來了所以我們可以開始觀察這個制度的實行是不是產生了一些政治上面的一些效果"},{"start":4742.964,"end":4745.045,"text":"公職人員被罷免,但罷免還是困難的狀況在這種情況之下,我們就有必要檢視少數否決的情形單一選區應該要去思考"},{"start":4767.338,"end":4776.946,"text":"負數選區負數選區就是有關於現在的縣市議員他們使用的是負數選區在這樣子的選區的結構之下他是得票數不需要這麼高不像單一選區得票數是比較低的但是他所使用的罷免門檻是跟單一選區是一樣的"},{"start":4793.539,"end":4793.919,"text":"公職人員選舉法實務現況精進"},{"start":4815.906,"end":4842.351,"text":"另外我們應該要去思考一個問題當選的時候他有一定的票數但是被罷免的時候他的票數是不是應該至少要跟他的得票數是一樣的否則還是會造成少數的人就可以使當選的公職人員被罷免這是我針對第6點的看法"},{"start":4845.091,"end":4852.836,"text":"公職人員選罷法第75條規定不能就就職未滿一年的公職人員提起罷免立法院議應該是說就職未滿一年不能啟動罷免程序"},{"start":4867.385,"end":4882.956,"text":"原意應該是這樣否則他不用去訂這個一年如果他沒有寫這個東西那就是隨時只要當選後都可以提起罷免那所以當時這個修法我想是沒有寫得非常的清楚沒有寫得非常清楚"},{"start":4883.636,"end":4887.098,"text":"公職人員當選後一年之後才開始可以啟動罷免程序這個在一般的民間應該是可以理解就是說一個公職人員他當選之後"},{"start":4912.335,"end":4912.495,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法實務"},{"start":4929.775,"end":4929.975,"text":"公職人員跟總統比較起來"},{"start":4954.862,"end":4955.342,"text":"徐宇貞委員"},{"start":4992.689,"end":5009.645,"text":"主席還有各位專家學者大家好針對公職人員選舉罷免法在2016年修法之後公職人員罷免的門檻降為同意票數要達到原選區的四分之一以上而且同意票要大於不同意票即為通過"},{"start":5010.726,"end":5030.272,"text":"自從罷免的制度門檻下修之後有成功的例子也有失敗的狀況雖然說罷免制度可以讓民眾有機會下架不適任的公職人員但是我們也必須要警惕不要成為政治鬥爭的籌碼更不能容忍罷免成為一種政治報復的工具"},{"start":5031.132,"end":5048.79,"text":"民主制度需要一個健全的制度來保護而不是任由其濫用民主的精髓在於尊重多數人的意見但當罷免的門檻設計過低的時候就有可能導致少數人為了罷免來實現私利進而削弱了民主的根基"},{"start":5049.61,"end":5052.951,"text":"這幾年罷免的提案經常發生這跟低門檻的設計有很大的問題現行的罷免門檻過低除了會變相鼓勵罷免之外也讓敗選的一方容易操作罷免成為選舉的延長賽不但不利於民主良善的發展"},{"start":5068.337,"end":5068.477,"text":"國際社會資源"},{"start":5088.595,"end":5088.835,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法實務"},{"start":5106.392,"end":5125.487,"text":"因此在民國105年11月的時候民進黨全面執政將罷免門檻修正為罷免案投票結果有效同意票多於不同意票數且同意票數達原選舉區的人數的四分之一以上現行的門檻這個過低已經被提出來多次討論有專家學者認為因為罷免權具有破壞性質會避免罷免權被濫用因而破壞政治的穩定性"},{"start":5136.355,"end":5146.721,"text":"所以脫離這個憲政的常軌應該要修正現行的選罷法中的罷免制度的規定那選舉是選賢與能罷免是免除不適任的公職人員續任公職的一個手段那單一選區要進半數的選票才能夠當選但是現在卻只要四分之一的門檻就可以把它罷掉形同讓少數的民意否決多數的民意因此"},{"start":5165.551,"end":5180.088,"text":"當選時票數較高,但是罷免時只要部分的人,四分之一的人同意就可以通過導致罷免已成為政治報復的工具,顯然非常不合理當然在這個除此之外,我們還要看到很多"},{"start":5180.809,"end":5204.262,"text":"在這個罷免的一個過程中會有很多的一個問題包括我這次還有修正第75條的規定就是就職未滿一年者不得罷免因為沒有明確的規定所以導致很多的里長跟民意代表在面臨一上任就有人啟動罷免的提議跟連署讓他們也沒辦法真正開始好好做事就必須要面對罷免的這樣的一個問題所以"},{"start":5208.084,"end":5231.332,"text":"當很多這樣的一個狀況發生他們未滿一年就開始收集提議書、聯署書甚至惡意的造假聯署人的名冊的情況顯見罷免的聯署程序跟宣傳的規範也過於寬鬆也破壞民主選舉的精神當然現行的罷免制度之下我們也希望說"},{"start":5232.912,"end":5252.242,"text":"新增同意票數去超過被罷免人當選票數叫符合公平正義也就是說不能讓少數的民意去否決多數的民意也希望這樣子的一個狀況發生之後呢任何的黨籍的公職人員都可以適用"},{"start":5254.214,"end":5282.149,"text":"從最近罷免連署的狀況來看因為低門檻的罷免設計而且罷免連署規範不夠嚴謹導致有心人都拿著名冊亂抄加上中選會的不作為已經為罷免制度帶來一系列不良的影響罷免的門檻偏低連署的方式過於寬鬆已成為罷免者成為說不起的報復工具甚至我想這也是一個"},{"start":5283.625,"end":5300.491,"text":"針對我們嚴肅的公共事務也損害了民主制度的這個信譽那這一次的公聽會希望這個能夠因為我們也看到民進黨的很多委員也都有提出了相關的90條的修正版本顯見草原的立委都認為現行的罷免的門檻確實過低造成高票當選低票罷免的過程"},{"start":5304.793,"end":5305.494,"text":"徐宇貞委員"},{"start":5330.888,"end":5356.581,"text":"主席各位在座的委員各位媒體朋友各位今天應邀來的學者專家我參加多次的立法院的公聽會但是不曉得什麼原因今天出席的朝野委員非常的少我們看上禮拜美國總統大選在辯論前兩天華盛頓郵報"},{"start":5361.024,"end":5365.948,"text":"列了21個問題來問這兩個總統來希望這兩個總統不是簡單式的回答他問什麼問題呢中東戰爭是不是應該美國的立場是什麼美國總統應該給年輕人什麼樣的幫助二屋戰爭什麼叫勝利這些問題"},{"start":5388.28,"end":5413.086,"text":"就較於美國總統的可能的候選人也同樣讓全國老百姓能夠思考這些問題但是我們每一次碰到政治問題的時候可能有些政黨就先給他定位斐憲亂政有些政黨可能8年在國會裡面沒有多數了就急於要通過造成全國民眾沒有辦法理性來面對問題"},{"start":5415.559,"end":5422.725,"text":"這是我非常擔心的一個事情我同樣的要來對原住民的這個委員的這個部分或者是說他的選罷的這個部分表達一點意見原因就是因為我非常尊重原住民"},{"start":5441.713,"end":5465.828,"text":"所以簡單的意見我認為第一點通訊投票迫在媒體應該開放給原住民選舉因為原住民是這麼的勇敢跟樂觀那我們這一條路在未來一段時間因為台灣在海外的人擁有中華民國國籍的很多嘛我們一步一步開放嘛"},{"start":5466.992,"end":5492.189,"text":"這是有關原住民的一個選罷另外一個就是有關選區現在原住民要選一個要全國跑我也參考一些意見能不能把它分為北中南三區然後讓委員不需要跑這麼大的浮域然後每一區平地跟山地各一人這解決問題了另外2022年"},{"start":5496.072,"end":5519.532,"text":"大法官也作出了一個判決臺灣平鋪組也是屬於臺灣原住民三年內必須要修法那下一次或下下次原住民的委員的人數可能就要更動這些問題都應該及早因應另外原住民的身份在應該可以參考紐西蘭的毛利組"},{"start":5520.64,"end":5540.165,"text":"他可以自己選擇我再投原住民還是投一般的立委的部分我們再往下看另外我們今天來找學者就是希望提供一點歐美罷免權的參考剛剛有幾位學者已經提了很多我要提的是這句話"},{"start":5541.789,"end":5554.011,"text":"有一個學者寫了這麼一句話就是罷免權是很重要的它對國家的良好運作至關重要就像體內的肺部用於淨化血液一樣重要"},{"start":5555.407,"end":5581.884,"text":"這是學理啊但是落實到現實的時候有些罷免很難操作或者法令的密度不夠產生嚴重了很多罷免的所謂的少數否決多數啊甚至在現有的罷免案當中也有過去一段時間各位很清楚那個就對外募款啊"},{"start":5583.004,"end":5600.753,"text":"但是募款的額度是多少呢?沒有規範沒有在選罷法裡面規範政治獻金法裡面也沒有提到罷免的能不能募款這個法律非常的疏我們法律要讓它密一點才能夠真正規範這個社會的正常運作"},{"start":5604.285,"end":5627.686,"text":"剛剛很多學者提到了,很多先進的國家都在中央層級都沒有罷免以瑞士為例,他26個州只有6個州有罷免,而且是地方層級的再往下看好不好我們再看再往下好不好,因為時間的因素罷免是一個應該審慎為之的"},{"start":5631.76,"end":5658.038,"text":"民主政治著重點在選舉啊所以有人講罷免他是放在門後的一個鋸棒創製復決是門後的兩支槍但是我們今天有到那個財囊橫行然後所有這些民選的人都為非作歹說要拿出罷免 拿出創製復決來對付這些行政官員或者民選的這些人員嗎"},{"start":5659.654,"end":5683.553,"text":"我想這是大家真的要審慎思考我們常常講艱險思緒怎麼樣讓我們的所有的這些選罷的制度能夠上軌道所以提高門檻可能是歐美民主國家在地方層級裡面的罷免的狀況它是一個很重要的參考指標"},{"start":5685.765,"end":5704.534,"text":"也就是不輕易啟動但是啟動呢往往有很多情況之下像加州啊就罷免一百四十幾次當然地方官員啊台灣話有一句話講齁一機操就可能半導人啊所以我們怎麼樣來審慎的來用這個罷免權我們再看往下看"},{"start":5709.571,"end":5725.605,"text":"就一年內不能夠所有罷免的行動、連署的行動等等這些應該更密的寫在這個選罷法裡面讓整個全國朝野政黨如果要走罷免這條路都能夠有比較明確的規範可循"},{"start":5728.773,"end":5739.443,"text":"另外 低門檻那個狀況 我想前面幾位委員都講過了 那我就不講 我的書面的東西有許多例子再往下看好不好政治急不得 但是也緩不得 我從數據上來看 過去三次選舉 四次選舉 兩大黨"},{"start":5754.313,"end":5773.508,"text":"政黨票已經有相當比例 高達30%左右 老百姓是不滿意 兩大黨的所以這是一個警訊 朝野兩大黨應該審慎為之 今天可以看到來的人根本不重視委員根本不重視 再往下看"},{"start":5775.932,"end":5784.954,"text":"為什麼所謂的國會現在第一大黨要急著這個因為過去8年國會跟行政一體所以太多問題了"},{"start":5786.308,"end":5810.336,"text":"我們在看為什麼這些問題不是選罷法本身就可以解決大環境比如說如果是少數政府跟國會多數往往是衝突的根源這是國內外研究非常多的再加上中共因素如果對台灣壓力大的話那台灣民眾又可能又激起一個類似民粹式的一個方式回應這些都不是民主的常態"},{"start":5811.736,"end":5820.582,"text":"法已實轉則治 治已是已則有功所以怎麼樣因應現在的選法法的不足我趕快修正 謝謝謝謝我們謝振宇教授接下來請林智傑教授"},{"start":5837.375,"end":5865.41,"text":"主席﹖各位列席的長官﹖各位今天來與談的專家學者﹖還有各位媒體朋友﹖各位委員﹖大家早安﹖大家好我是國立陽明交通大學的﹖林志傑老師謝謝今天委員會的邀請﹖以及召委的主持﹖讓我們有機會來討論﹖兩個非常重要的制度第一個是關於原住民的投票方式是不是有可能採用不在籍投票﹖或者是其他更為便利的投票方法"},{"start":5865.99,"end":5870.98,"text":"第二是關於罷免制度的改變有沒有必要提高罷免的門檻以及開始罷免的時間針對這兩個題目本人簡單回覆如下"},{"start":5877.652,"end":5903.995,"text":"剛剛我也把我所有的回答已經PO在我的粉絲專頁上那也傳到媒體群組來進攻各位媒體朋友桌餐有關於第一個問題就是不在即投票在2020年當時的總統跟立委選舉的時候我個人曾經跟多位交通大學 當時還沒有合校的老師們發起益助我們的同學回鄉投票的一個活動"},{"start":5904.816,"end":5925.241,"text":"最主要就是其實在參政權的實施上面弱勢的群體他的投票成本如果是高的那確實有可能影響參政權的形勢那這邊要講的是不在籍投票裡面有多種方式比如通訊的方式或者是移轉的方式"},{"start":5926.061,"end":5942.472,"text":"台灣在整個選舉過程裡面有幾項原則是最根本的最重要的原則就是國家安全以及投票人的自由意志不受干擾為什麼國家安全是最重要的因為台灣的狀況跟世界其他的國家並不相同"},{"start":5943.072,"end":5957.01,"text":"所以在投票的制度上如果拿其他國家說你看某某國家有通訊投票這已經是一個電子化的時代我們也要來做那這個就是罔顧目前台灣在外交以及敵國滲透的困難度"},{"start":5958.311,"end":5982.751,"text":"大家可以想像如果今天我們開放了電子投票而這個電子投票地是包括中國我們的台商大概會被集合在某一個體育館裡面一起電子投票吧所以我國的人民的投票權包括投票的隱私自由意志的確保我覺得這一點是在我們去更改任何投票辦法上都必須要在資念資的因為這個才是維護我們人民的基本權利"},{"start":5983.852,"end":6005.075,"text":"所以從這幾點來看我們剛剛提過了第一個是國家安全第二個是人民的自由意志參政權的想法不受干預那麼第三個就是投票過程的公正也就是不同的群體之間如果你特別讀後某一個群體那有類似狀況的群體可能也會來群起要求"},{"start":6006.184,"end":6034.372,"text":"所以就回到剛剛開幕的時候我說到的確實原住民族可能他有平地跟山地通勤上面的需求但是絕大部分的大專生所有的人幾乎都是離鄉背井的在讀書的請問一下那大專生是不是也可以一併的來要求我的意思是說當今天我們的立法委員提出這種草案的時候就拜託要思考不同群體之間公平的實施參政權的平等性"},{"start":6035.432,"end":6058.69,"text":"所以在我看來最適合的可以來做不在籍投票裡面的移轉投票大概就是公投所以公投因為它所有的題目不管你在臺北 在台中 在高雄 題目都是一樣的這個時候你如果用移轉投票並不至於造成秘密的外洩比如說你整個投開票數裡面只有一位原住民"},{"start":6059.665,"end":6077.365,"text":"那麼他投哪一個候選人這是昭然若揭的請問他的秘密投票自由誰來確保他所以當今天要提一個案的時候一定要有專業的素養同時要有人民基本權的概念那並不是說對於原住民族的投票權益不以確保"},{"start":6077.765,"end":6103.181,"text":"而是必須在權衡兼顧剛剛所言的幾種狀況下因此我個人是支持可以在公投上考量未來移轉投票擴大到不同群體的可行性至於候選人的選舉性投票我個人並不贊同用通訊投票或者是移轉投票因為目前看起來他的弊是大於利的這是第一個問題"},{"start":6104.542,"end":6105.624,"text":"針對第二個問題提高罷免門檻這邊要跟各位談的就是說其實罷免門檻的問題是跟一個國家如何設計他監督公職人員的制度聯動的關係"},{"start":6120.72,"end":6136.837,"text":"什麼意思呢?簡單講一個具有高度的倫理規範自律非常高對於民意代表跟公職人員的懲戒非常嚴格的國家他的罷免門檻可以定的嚴一點因為其他的制度是周全的"},{"start":6137.498,"end":6159.876,"text":"反之一個國家如果對於民意代表的濫權失職公職人員的違法行為沒有辦法有民意的彰顯那麼罷免的門檻就不宜過高這兩件事是聯動的關係因為罷免是一個參政權同時也是監督公職人員表現非常重要的工具"},{"start":6161.294,"end":6185.701,"text":"我個人支持罷免法可以討論一個修改就是罷免的理由因為觀察過去不論是陳柏惟委員或是林昶佐委員當時被提出罷免的理由姑且不論裡面的資訊是錯的比如統計的數字中間是不對的或者是某某委員曾經發表過某種言論事實上也不是正確的罷免的理由我覺得可以更為堅強具體"},{"start":6187.421,"end":6204.047,"text":"所以如果今天要修選罷法是要討論未來應強烈罷免理由而且這些罷免理由必須經過核實我覺得我個人是贊成的不能夠因為今天他比如說我主張中華民國與中國互不隸屬我就被提起罷免"},{"start":6204.967,"end":6226.759,"text":"這是不行的因為我如果陳述一個現實狀況或者是我有某一些政治的信仰主張你就要來罷免我對不起我覺得這個並不符合罷免的爭議所以如果今天我們要修選罷法各位是要查罷免理由上面更為堅強具體不可以有fake news這個我支持但很遺憾的是我看這一次的提出草案竟然是要提高罷免門檻這真是令人匪夷所思"},{"start":6229.6,"end":6243.203,"text":"因為今年從二月到現在我國國會一連串違憲疑慮甚至擴權自肥的行為現在正在釋憲中美國為什麼會有剛剛講的某一些罷免的要求英國有"},{"start":6244.349,"end":6260.18,"text":"我跟各位報告美國的國會對於議員有倫理辦公室的要求而且議員甚至在去年有國會的立法委員被驅逐出會他對於國會議員的自律規範可以高到這個程度如果可以這麼高我也可以不用罷免"},{"start":6261.541,"end":6278.53,"text":"那在現在的狀況下所有的反歧視性騷擾的種種條文都沒有被立法委員的職權行使法和行為法所通過取而代之的是一連串的擴權調查等等的情況我們如果沒有任何的制度可以來制止國會議員的濫權"},{"start":6280.531,"end":6294.299,"text":"反而要提高人民實現民主的門檻我必須說這真的很讓人民失望也讓民主蒙羞最後敬告我覺得要提出類似提高罷免門檻的委員們要想想看我覺得Respect is earned, not granted"},{"start":6297.981,"end":6320.649,"text":"今天你當選國會議員其實是人民對你非常大的托付剛剛已經有先進提到499號的解釋任何自肥跟利益衝突的法律正是立法委員自己應該好好反省檢討回應民意需求的以上是我針對第二點提高罷免門檻表達不予同意的觀點那在此向各位先進就教謝謝謝謝林志傑教授下一位請張嘉穎教授"},{"start":6343.514,"end":6356.013,"text":"主席﹚各位委員﹚各位專家﹚學者﹚以及先進﹚大家好﹚還有媒體朋友由於時間關係我以下大概僅就兩個議題來討論"},{"start":6358.843,"end":6380.841,"text":"那出發的前提是什麼呢就是選罷法的修訂固然是立法者的形成自由然而必須在合憲的框架內來進行所以雖然剛才有很多很精彩的政策性的討論但是以下我的發言將從公法學的觀點出發那針對兩個議題"},{"start":6386.26,"end":6386.44,"text":"選罷法第75條"},{"start":6407.83,"end":6433.767,"text":"第1項但書就職未滿一年者不得罷免的解釋那在討論提綱以及相關資料裡面其實有提到說那到底禁止的是就是說這個75條第1項但書呢他禁止的是啟動罷免程序還是產生罷免結果呢那剛才也有先進的有一些不同的看法"},{"start":6435.407,"end":6456.572,"text":"但從法律學觀點來解釋,我有以下見解我們在解釋但書的時候,應該要注意前面的那一段所以對於選罷法第75條第一項,應該做一個整全性的解釋"},{"start":6458.856,"end":6460.877,"text":"公職人員之罷免得由原選舉區選舉人向選舉委員會提出罷免案"},{"start":6485.31,"end":6505.166,"text":"所以就法律的解釋來講非常的清楚但說指的就是就職未滿一年者不得進行前階行為那前階行為指的其實就是原選舉區選舉人不得向選舉委員會提出罷免案"},{"start":6506.636,"end":6533.494,"text":"那這個才是一個我認為從法律學觀點出發比較嚴謹的一個解釋方式所以那種二分法的提法其實反而是一個誤導問題那在這個對75條第一項的解釋的這個脈絡之下我們來看修正的提案那就修正提案我的見解是如果要去禁止在"},{"start":6535,"end":6554.797,"text":"就是說就職未滿一年不得為提議跟連署基本上它對於基本權利已經構成一個十分重大的限制了那我想這個其實是我們憲法學的ABC就基本權利的限制來講呢大體上我們就會透過比例原則來審查"},{"start":6556.73,"end":6581.017,"text":"尤其是因為所涉及到的是非常重大的基本權利一個是罷免權一個是政治性言論也就是屬於高價值言論所以這個時候我們會採取的審查標準其實是嚴格審查標準在結合比例原則跟嚴格審查標準的情況之下這裡我就不再做細部的操作我們可以說"},{"start":6582.56,"end":6602.686,"text":"無論要去做擴張解釋或是立法禁止呢他違憲的疑慮都非常的大這個是就第一點那就第二點第二個問題就是條高大免門檻呢我的見解先講結論其實也是有很高的違憲的疑慮"},{"start":6605.151,"end":6634.589,"text":"那違憲的一律要分成兩個層面一個是如果就選罷法的修改來提高罷免門檻在一定程度內呢基本上他是一個立法形成自由但是問題是如果這一屆的立法委員他在修訂選罷法提高罷免門檻而適用於當屆的話那麼很顯然呢我們根據4至第499號解釋的精神"},{"start":6635.782,"end":6663.13,"text":"也就是說當時大法官介於國民大會第5次修憲所謂的自肥延任也就是當屆的國民大會代表延長當屆國民大會代表的任期那明顯的就抵觸了修憲的界限也就是自由民主的憲政秩序那更具體的來講呢就是民主國原則而且在程序上有重大明顯瑕疵"},{"start":6664.673,"end":6685.192,"text":"那所以從釋字第49號解釋的這樣的一個判決理由來看的話雖然提高罷免門檻他並不是對任期的延長但是呢某個意義上來講我們可以說他是可以相提並論的為什麼因為我們可以舉個例子"},{"start":6687.062,"end":6713.959,"text":"就是投票行為我們可以把它類比於選民與立法委員締結一個民主政治契約而任期跟所謂的撤銷程序就是罷免程序他是契約的必要內容那所以當屆的立委不可以透過修法來提高罷免的門檻為什麼因為這樣就已經去變動了而且是有利於自己的方向來變動這個民主政治契約"},{"start":6715.525,"end":6730.149,"text":"透過這樣的一個比喻我想可以了解的就是說基本上他已經嚴重的違反民主原則了雖然這裡他沒有延長任期那麼嚴重但是其實從消極面來看他其實不會比較不嚴重所以從這個觀點出發的話如果提高門檻是適用於下一屆的話在不抵觸憲法原則的情況下"},{"start":6743.104,"end":6754.476,"text":"剛才提到他是屬於立法者的行程自由但是仍然要考慮目的的正當性以及對於罷免權的影響是否已經符合比例原則"},{"start":6756.142,"end":6776.437,"text":"那當然這是一個原則性的問題要看到時候具體的這個提案那如果是以目前我看到的草案的話基本上並不是不可以為什麼因為在一個相對合理的範圍內呢如果適用於下一屆基本上就比較沒有問題那至於其他問題例如說有說法認為"},{"start":6780.843,"end":6805.937,"text":"罷免的票數要跟選舉票數要相當這個其實是一種難訴諸直覺的一種想法為什麼因為罷免跟選舉它是兩種不同的程序兩種不同的參政權的行使而且兩種不同的事實的脈絡為什麼因為剛才也有提到就是簡單來講在單一選區兩票制的情況之下基本上它不會只有一個候選人"},{"start":6806.957,"end":6807.798,"text":"張嘉穎教授 接下來請呂思翰律師"},{"start":6839.855,"end":6848.475,"text":"主席、各位議會先進、委員、機關代表、早安、瓦薩魯瑪莉瑪莉、烏尼納米烏米桑、羅卡蘇、"},{"start":6850.493,"end":6872.775,"text":"大家好 我是立正委員感謝內政委員會的邀請請代表原住民青年社會實踐協會就本次公職人員選舉罷免法修正草案有關原住民選舉人、被選舉人以及當選人這三個部分向委員會報告首先提到原住民如果是選舉人的時候大概在第9屆立法委員的時候開始比較常被討論到"},{"start":6874.276,"end":6886.219,"text":"那部分投開票所的原住民的選舉人數很少雖然程序上選務機關仍然維繫了選舉的祕密性和公平性運作的結果反而使得"},{"start":6887.358,"end":6909.444,"text":"足以間接識別原住民選舉人的投票意向如同間接量票陷入了被盯哨的風險感謝選務機關意識到這個問題從第10屆跟第11屆的原住民立法委員的選舉為例原住民選舉人人數稀少的投票所的數量跟比例都有逐步的下降"},{"start":6911.092,"end":6935.751,"text":"那從今年下半年開始涉及在都市的原住民人數已經超過全體原住民的一半所以未來在不管是中央或地方的選舉這個議題其實也會持續的發生那依照目前公職人員選舉罷免法第17條的戶籍地投票還有投開票所合一的設置的原則所以針對山地跟平地原住民在戶籍地內"},{"start":6937.012,"end":6964.828,"text":"可以重新思考投開票所的規劃尤其是中央選舉在非原住民地區可以設置集中投票所那如果可以進一步的修法擴大不在籍投票適用在原住民的選舉人上在通訊投票提前投票代理投票會增加選舉公平性的疑慮以及選務成本的考量移轉投票其實是目前選務操作過比較保險的做法"},{"start":6966.53,"end":6982.361,"text":"那只要執行上不會造成原住民選舉人適用上的爭議還有各地選務人員操作上的困難那專法專章專條專款都是法條體力結構上的變動那建議可以以簡明為宜那再來是說"},{"start":6986.539,"end":7013.449,"text":"原住民能否參與一般選區的被選舉人的問題那現行民選的總統直轄市縣市首長那除了山地鄉跟直轄市山地原住民區以外的鄉鎮市長里長法律都沒有要求一定要有特定的原住民身份那實踐上呢也有原住民身份跟血緣的候選人還有當選人所以我接下來講的部分其實是主要是針對的是各級民意代表"},{"start":7015.25,"end":7042.169,"text":"那依照公職人員選舉罷免法第35條跟36條原住民的選舉人要依法組成的平地跟山地原住民的選舉區進而產生被選舉人所以不能參加非原住民的公職人員選舉那選區不是地理的區隔那是人的集合那如果修法的不如果要修法的話那就要從源頭的選舉人被選舉人選舉區要一路往下來處理"},{"start":7044.517,"end":7070.344,"text":"那當然一位原住民也是一位公民但用公民的身份去參選各級民意代表看起來的確是解除了原住民身份的限制讓原住民在政治上面自由選擇幫原住民代言或幫非原住民代言的機會那另外一種意見是要如何防免幫非原住民代言具原住民身份的代議士反過頭來侵蝕原住民族利益的可能性"},{"start":7071.243,"end":7099.164,"text":"比如說﹐在某些原住民保留地﹐被非原住民經常使用的地方那當地的農會跟平權會﹐如果有計劃性的役助支持﹐具原住民身份的代議是﹐進而要求地方或中央﹐去鬆綁原住民保留地﹐對非原住民使用的管理或限制那在這種假想的例子裡面﹐具原住民身份﹐在一般選舉區的被選舉人來說﹐發生了潛在的利益衝突"},{"start":7099.924,"end":7128.291,"text":"那這種情況應該要如何防免所以解除原住民被選舉人的限制還有避免原住民被選舉人利益衝突的情況那孰輕孰重又有由賴立法者的智慧那第三呢當原住民是當選人的時候那原住民立法委員的席次已經明定在憲法徵用條文裡面所以在沒有劃設選區的情況下那全國的3D原住民、平地原住民各組成的"},{"start":7129.212,"end":7156.754,"text":"各組成了原住民選區：分別選出3席那原住民立法委員缺額的時候：不論是重選：或者是降低補選的門檻變成三分之一當然可以及時反映民意：讓原住民族意見的展現：不會因為可規則或不可規則於當選人的事由而被擱置那一旦一缺額就進行補選的話：我們可以想見"},{"start":7158.294,"end":7182.041,"text":"那一次的選舉是全國的平地原住民跟山地原住民一起補選那一位缺額的席次所以可能會演變成到最後變成大族的對決的這種態勢而且在極端的情況下也有可能反覆補選造成大族全拿反而沒有辦法能夠整體呈現原住民族的整體意志"},{"start":7183.385,"end":7201.602,"text":"所以如果未來法律劃分了原住民立法委員變成單一選區的情況下那立法體力上面當然應該要比照單一選區立委的一任的方式來處理重選為當然就要重選那這樣子就可以即時反映原住民的集體意志"},{"start":7202.597,"end":7230.802,"text":"也可以兼顧選務成本但是在現行法的法制發展下原住民立法委員的一任是比照各級民意代表的情況是缺額達二分之一的時候才要補選那如果從缺額的事由往下分析那目前應該不會有原住民立委當選不足額的情況那這種情況當然也沒有辦法遞補啊那所以可以參照全國不分區立委公職人員選舉罷免法第74條各級民意代表的這樣子的情況"},{"start":7235.831,"end":7260.501,"text":"來有關於地補的規定那法制上面有利可循而且也可以節省這個選舉的成本那如果要採取地補的方式來做這樣子的處理的話那也應該要比照地補的限制比如說如果上司或放棄原住民身份的時候那當然就要解認還有最低得票數的門檻但是在這種情況下"},{"start":7262.52,"end":7263.12,"text":"謝謝李司和李氏現在請陳柏惟委員"},{"start":7302.591,"end":7331.197,"text":"主席你好黃捷委員你好 群黨的你好緣委員沒來喔還蠻想聽他意見的 來不知道為什麼最近在聊選罷法修法那今天的公聽會是專家教授學者那我算當事人當事人當然要講一些在遇到罷免過程覺得對這個制度有一些見眼"},{"start":7333.749,"end":7359.216,"text":"那首先我想要先講一個概念不要把罷免當成毒蛇猛獸罷免會製造成仇恨對立是因為罷免方的起心動念有邪念所以他才會變成一場戰爭變成一場割喉但如果罷免方的理由正當比如說有請假選總統的比如說有半夜強盜破門的"},{"start":7361.411,"end":7389.27,"text":"那我覺得你應該要給人家罷免的機會啊那另外一方面行政首長的代呼職守跟議員發聲的路線不同這其實是兩個完全不一樣的概念你不能說左派右派進步保守的理念競爭這個叫做代呼職守嘛可是你如果整個行政首長跟單一選區的立委連人都不見了那當然要有罷免的權利留給人民啊"},{"start":7390.717,"end":7412.725,"text":"所以不免又讓人家覺得國會是不是又在擴權了怎麼會討論這個議題而且過去的制度明明就有受害者啊真正如果照這個國會多數的版本修下去唯一一個會被罷免的是我們現在的立法院院長欸真的你們要修這種法院長不知道會不會跳起來院長也應該要來發表意見"},{"start":7415.492,"end":7437.107,"text":"所以修一個法從歷史時間的長度從跨各個政黨的光譜我們要找到一個大家都能夠接受的方案如果只是單純討論%有一點道理但更重要的事情是在罷免的過程他到底為什麼會變成仇恨的我們不能快快樂樂的罷免平平安安的回家嗎所以"},{"start":7440.182,"end":7464.467,"text":"在罷免的期間我遇到幾個狀況跟大家報告也希望這邊的行政官員或是民意代表立法院可以聽聽看我這為數不多的建議首先當然是錯假連署從韓院長在高雄市的7%到我的16%到黃婕的26%到林昶佐的30%"},{"start":7468.342,"end":7486.416,"text":"到高敏玲的75%那4張連署人裡面有3張是錯的是假的不是假的就是死的這合理嗎提出罷免方的比例超過10幾%的剛好都是同一個政黨發起的那這樣子我頭也是暈暈的啊怎麼會說錯假連署是罷免應該要提高門檻的理由咧第二個是空窗期當一個罷免方發動罷免不論他的原因是輸不起"},{"start":7496.348,"end":7518.15,"text":"想搶回來 覺得沒有選舉很無聊 各種原因該立委啊 也就是我本人他大概要提早三個月到半年 他要花上一定的時間來回應媒體來上節目辯論 來回應一些根本不是他立法委員本業的問題"},{"start":7519.929,"end":7540.394,"text":"那這樣子他自然就會讓人家覺得你是不是有一些時間花在不必要的事情上啊沒辦法啊因為罷免方在搞你啊但是你能不悔嗎你也不能不悔啊罷免是人民的權利嘛所以對基本盤不穩以及意識形態極端的人就像統派的韓國瑜跟獨派的陳柏惟他就一定會遇到這個問題嘛"},{"start":7543.004,"end":7568.58,"text":"所以就我自己的狀況從罷免發動到補選選上林靜儀委員我們的選區有將近4個月的時間是沒有立委的這件事情我看過其他國家的方法他們在罷免啟動之後就讓要選的人都出來選總不會繞了一圈結果又還給原本的人吧第三個還有一個叫募款"},{"start":7571.633,"end":7581.887,"text":"當時在我的選區罕見的贊成反對罷免方有200多塊的招牌全部都是我的臉只是有的是笑的有的是哭的"},{"start":7583.422,"end":7601.138,"text":"那這樣子在罷免方的錢虧無窮無盡的注資的情況下卻不受政治現金的管理而反罷免方不得成立政治現金專戶以及不得這個你知道我們有我們這個民意代表公眾人物就是要登記嘛那我要去哪裡生錢來反對罷免"},{"start":7603.424,"end":7623.891,"text":"那不就是站在那邊給人家打嗎那也難怪院長當時面對高雄民意的時候他也只能站在那邊啊因為現在的罷免制度就是對反對罷免方有一定程度的困難啊有人要支持我就說你去買扇子給我去菜市場發你去幫我做文宣你去認兩幾個招牌我口袋裡面都沒有錢可以做這些事所以我們應該把罷免看成一個正常的選舉"},{"start":7628.991,"end":7652.887,"text":"只是說他需要啟動門檻的原因是因為我們已經有一個全國性的選舉有四年任期制的民意代表而在這個過程裡面我們真的覺得他太扯了可能是我 我不知道所以要給人民提出罷免的權利你今天又要把罷免門檻提高歷史上罷免投票"},{"start":7654.585,"end":7678.47,"text":"比率最多 投票率最高的 也是我那一場 也不過才51%的投票率而已你拿來跟他當選 可能全國性投票有75% 80%的選舉來說啊 你的得票數不夠啊 民意不正當啊我最近在看喔 都覺得國民黨在幫我講話 他們都在指涉顏寬恒委員是個輸不起的人我真的替顏委員感到非常的悲傷 怎麼會被同黨同志這樣子講"},{"start":7679.881,"end":7686.824,"text":"所以嚴委員應該要來講韓院長應該要來講當時發動的前後任主席朱主席要來講蔣主席也要來講我當年在立法院裡面每天上班提出扶國立民的政策結果他的罷免理由虛假他說我沒當兵"},{"start":7702.518,"end":7729.699,"text":"結果這個人被藍營的立委員告說他強穩說我追打吳怡丁委員可是實際上是吳怡丁委員拿著礦泉水瓶在雜菜一語他說我提告周克齊叫做恐嚇選民結果這個人因為反滲透買票被起訴江啟臣說我開放美豬我要提醒大家立法院現在只有藍白不想過的法案沒有藍白過不了的法案你如果覺得這個是必要之二的話你可以把它改回來"},{"start":7731.124,"end":7756.257,"text":"胡志強前市長外交部長他擔任罷免陳柏惟社團的管理員廖偉祥的媽媽黃欣慧也是議員王宏威時任的議員跳出來說基進黨不要這麼噁心 異質我們可以罷免人家但不能被罷免葉元之議員跳出來拍影片顏寬恆說當義工趙少康 羅志強 徐巧欣等人無一不語"},{"start":7758.288,"end":7773.063,"text":"但當時的五大黨裡面包含這個綠黨他們都是反對罷免民眾黨主席柯文哲說本黨對此案應保持距離成是個有理想的年輕人實在力量的王婉玉、邱顯智說他們反對罷免"},{"start":7774.721,"end":7790.013,"text":"民進黨說別讓努力的人孤單綠黨說陳柏惟是少數關心醫療政策的立委一人當選全黨服務但罷免一人全黨投入這就是我的親身經驗謝謝大家謝謝陳柏惟委員接下來請李彥榮發言人"},{"start":7811.807,"end":7830.301,"text":"主席各位機關代表以及現場的專家學者及媒體同仁大家好我是目前罷免謝國洋團隊傷害公民參加行動的發言人李彥榮那今天非常有榮幸可以來到這邊然後與大家針對目前選罷法的修正條文以及實務面來進行討論"},{"start":7832.543,"end":7835.808,"text":"那首先我們在每一次的投票過程當中我們投下的每一票其實都是我們當下對於這位候選人的核心價值有所認同"},{"start":7845.372,"end":7861.916,"text":"因此在理想的情況下 罷免這一項制度就是當我們在事後發現這一位候選人或是這一位民意代表與當初所說的不同或是與我們自身的核心價值有所衝突時可以有一個挽救的機會而這些都應該是我們現在的言論自由所保障的範圍"},{"start":7868.564,"end":7879.45,"text":"而這位公職人員．當我們認為他有所不適任時．並不會因為他只上任一週．一個月或是一年．就從最一開始而對他滿意．而突然轉為十分不滿意．因此對於今天我們在討論．是否要根據未滿一年．不得提起"},{"start":7889.595,"end":7918.045,"text":"罷免案這一事來進行討論時首先現在的現行法規便是在就職未滿一年時不得提出那另一部分如果今天想要討論的是當我這一位民意代表就職未滿一年時我們不得去提議的話或是我們不得去討論的話那是否其實很明顯的限縮到憲法保障人民言論自由的範疇"},{"start":7921.104,"end":7944.361,"text":"但以上我們在討論的都是在一個理想的情況當中畢竟在過去這幾年在台灣的政治的情況下其實我們也看到了多起的惡意罷免那這些惡意罷免其實出現了非常多不知所云甚至是顛倒是非的理由書而這些都是我們可以再精細去討論精心再去注意的"},{"start":7945.817,"end":7969.84,"text":"至於在討論什麼樣的通過門檻才是真正符合民意時我們應該先認知到的是首先大選大選的投票以及當我們在提出罷免案時的投票我們首先會面臨到的狀況本來就不同這兩者本身就不能一概而論首先根據台灣人民對於政治行為的態度"},{"start":7970.973,"end":7981.352,"text":"除非當整體社會有一個風氣是我們此時此刻正在討論政治時我們很難公開的去發言我們對於這一位支持者是贊成還是反對"},{"start":7983.752,"end":8004.856,"text":"另外一部分現在有非常非常多在外地工作或是讀書的游子那他們對於這些投票其實成本非常非常高那當我們要單單為一個罷免案而來去付出高昂的成本來去做移動的投票時其實這對於某些人來說他們是不會選擇站出來的"},{"start":8009.52,"end":8034.555,"text":"因此我們抓出我們過去投票的數據來看大選平均的投票率大概是7成罷免案只有4成因此以投票率以及以投票率的基數來推導致我們罷免案應該要以同樣的數據來去代表說是否今天的這個罷免案有一定的民意基礎我認為這是非常不合理的"},{"start":8036.087,"end":8053.448,"text":"另一部分當我們在社會在討論罷免案時我們通常我們站出來會講的是我們反對這個人而不是我們支持這個人可是在台灣這個社會要我們站出來反抗比站出來支持某個人的成本還要高昂許多"},{"start":8054.449,"end":8068.001,"text":"我們可以去想想當今天是大選的時候我選擇站出來去投票身邊的親友以及今天當我們在罷免案時我們站出來投票身邊的親友的反應是否會有所不同那這樣的不同其實就代表著這兩項投票的本質是非常不一樣的"},{"start":8077.075,"end":8087.454,"text":"當我們選擇出門投票的這個心理的壓力以及當我們在這一個過程中我們在提出自己想法的時候都面臨到指責其實差異都非常的大"},{"start":8090.08,"end":8113.909,"text":"因此在這個大選以及我們的罷免投票之間的投票率是否能夠以等價看待我認為這都是可以進一步再去做研擬的罷免門檻這件事情本來就不可以淪為政治的喊價我們都應該要經過詳細的規劃那現場也有非常非常多的專家學者那我也相信這些專家學者可以再進一步提出更詳細的規劃"},{"start":8116.65,"end":8143.888,"text":"那另一部分其實根據現在的現行法規只有政黨才得以收取罷免活動的政治獻金因此我們身為一個公民團體我們在提出罷免的時候本來就有一定的難度更不論從2月份開始金融的罷免團體不斷的受到打壓、造謠以及公權力的介入跟威脅這些都一再的在顯示公民在行使罷免權時候的困難"},{"start":8145.998,"end":8174.32,"text":"那現在我認為我們今天在討論的這一些修正草案是意圖在以一個政黨政治的狀態以政黨政治的大選規格定義罷免行動那現在身為一個已經發起罷免團體並且正在進行式的公民團體我認為這十分的不合理我們當中受到的阻礙跟政黨當初在大選時所遇到的困難或是他們所可以應用的資源其實都有極大的差異"},{"start":8176.206,"end":8195.236,"text":"另一部分當我們討論到所謂的聯署是否應該要加深它的嚴謹度甚至是上綱到我們必須繳交身份證影本時我認為這都大大的無視於人民對於隱私權的在乎以及現今依然有非常多人民對於部分政府濫用公權力的恐懼"},{"start":8197.322,"end":8225.823,"text":"罷免應該是憲法明定賦予人民的權利但我現在看到的事情是在面對人民對於同黨公職人員的失望與批評時某些政治人物並不是選擇修正以及改善而是利用濫用立法權的方式修法以保住席次這些修法都會使得未來罷免權如同虛設但是否也代表著人民之後再也沒有機會監督我們的所有的民意代表"},{"start":8227.751,"end":8235.98,"text":"維持門檻以及上修門檻到底哪一個動作才是所謂的政治操作當然這不是我說的算我相信大家心中都有答案"},{"start":8237.794,"end":8263.8,"text":"那我因此在這邊我也希望大家可以仔細的去思考當我們在面對罷免以及在面對大選投票時我到底可不可以運用同樣的一個標準也如同前面許多學者所說的現行的選舉制度我們的議員我們的立委以及我們的總統其實投票的方式都有所不同是否能夠用同樣的標準一概而論也是需要再去深思的以上 謝謝"},{"start":8268.484,"end":8269.087,"text":"下一位我們請黃婕委員"},{"start":8283.093,"end":8310.712,"text":"主席還有在場所有的專家學者大家好那我今天除了說代表立法委員來發表意見之外因為我也算是一個過來人啦算是唯一一個台灣政治史上是不同意罷免票大於同意罷免票的一個經驗者來跟大家分享那大家立法院除了韓國瑜黃國昌還有我我們三位都是現任有經歷過罷免經驗的過來人那在這邊分享一下我的看法"},{"start":8311.232,"end":8320.555,"text":"第一,從世界上的民主國家來看,現在大概有75個民主國家,裡面有20幾個國家擁有罷免制度。那在美國其實50個州裡面有19個州是可以罷免州長以及議員的。所以其實大家在討論說台灣到底需不需要罷免制度,我覺得都可以討論。"},{"start":8330.999,"end":8335.98,"text":"因為在每個國家的罷免制度其實都有點不一樣這個細談下去是非常非常複雜的那什麼樣的制度是好我認為民主制度沒有說在哪一個制度一定是最好而是因應這個國家需要的民主的設計都可以來做門檻的上修或下修以及更複雜的包括說行政首長可不可以罷免包括說民意代表可不可以罷免這個其實細談下去有非常多不同種細緻的"},{"start":8357.585,"end":8357.805,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進"},{"start":8386.187,"end":8390.349,"text":"那還有剛剛說的就是到底因為以台灣來說行政首長跟民意代表負責的權利義務其實不太一樣那很多國家其實是針對行政首長因為他擁有執行執政的實權所以才可以發動這個罷免的條件那台灣的現在的這個狀態其實是因為是一概同仁"},{"start":8409.238,"end":8415.482,"text":"就是都可以所以其實應該要再去針對他的權利義務做更細緻的設計這個我也都認同那當然還有的國家例如說瑞士他是可以罷免不分區的可以針對不分區用集體式的罷免制度我認為這個也可以提出來討論所以當然在這麼多複雜的罷免的制度的設計之下台灣現在單一就只有提高罷免的門檻"},{"start":8436.894,"end":8440.998,"text":"而且是為特定的政黨量身訂做的我認為是非常粗糙、非常廉價、也非常沒有正當性的一個修法那再來這個直接提到說罷免的門檻因為有人說罷免的門檻這麼低就是沒有選上的人只要基本盤發動了就可以罷免"},{"start":8458.957,"end":8464.463,"text":"這些主張罷免很容易的人 他們都是假設說最後就會變成政黨的對決那我以自己的經驗為例 當初的通過的門檻大概是七萬兩千票但是當時候的鳳山的議員選舉 就是國民黨要罷免我的對方的這一黨 他們拿了九萬票"},{"start":8480.2,"end":8483.322,"text":"如果他們的假設是說對方的政黨都會發動他們的基本盤來發動其實我就會被罷免了什麼意思呢就是說這個罷免的門檻不能單一的就說政黨對決來看待我認為這個前提非常非常的重要是因為說其實人民都知道說罷免的正當性比一般選舉還要高"},{"start":8503.154,"end":8526.583,"text":"就是他要有一個我真的很想要把你罷下來的理由以及這個人真的很不適任人民才會驅動這個罷免的投票的動力而不是說就是四年一次的選舉投票因為如果真的他這麼不滿意他就是四年再把你換掉就好所以罷免的發動的這個機制其實是需要一個正當性的正當性變得非常非常重要所以"},{"start":8526.963,"end":8530.751,"text":"以我的例子為例現在為了要保障特定的政黨他們覺得罷免太容易而去拉高這個門檻是真的非常沒有正當性的"},{"start":8538.186,"end":8559.318,"text":"好那再來我認為說這個罷免的成功啊成功與否還是在於說能否成功動員多數的中間的選民就是說大家的正當性到底多數的民眾覺得這個人真的是非常不適應已經影響到我生活的權益所以站出來罷免還有被罷免人他自己的表現也非常重要"},{"start":8559.778,"end":8583.726,"text":"那以我自己的例子來說我當時的罷免理由幾乎都是虛假的內容錯假的內容包括說什麼我違反香港的國安法那其實根本就第一個香港的國安法與台灣不適用而台灣的國安法也沒有所謂的21條所以它的這個內容與現實是直接是不相符的那所以用這樣子的罷免理由多數的民眾當然就不會認同嘛那那如果呢"},{"start":8588.595,"end":8617.177,"text":"好那最後我必須要講一下說這個罷免的門檻他是一個公共議題可以討論但是不能把公共的議題變成是幫特定的政黨來解套如果只是因為罷免很容易所以就要提高門檻這樣的理由真的真的非常的不充分千萬不要讓這個罷免是作為人民的權利最後為了要自己的利益而變成鳥籠罷免以上是我的建議謝謝"},{"start":8620.026,"end":8620.767,"text":"接下來我們請張博洋議員"},{"start":8647.504,"end":8673.964,"text":"主席以及各位立院現場的先進大家好我是高雄市議員張博洋同時也是臺灣基進黨黨籍的市議員那非常遺憾今天必須要一大早五點多起床搭高鐵來竟然是為了謝國良但是不要誤會我是支持罷免他的所以也很榮幸有這個機會來跟大家分享罷免作為臺灣人民面對不滿意的政治人物面對不適任的政治人物作為一種武器臺灣基進黨我們使用過"},{"start":8676.186,"end":8676.266,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8691.516,"end":8694.037,"text":"我支持這項修法的前提是國民黨必須要白紙黑字的告訴臺灣人民這項修法不是為了謝國良"},{"start":8718.989,"end":8745.776,"text":"當然今天我們有看到藍營的智庫在新聞上有說他們有提到一個程序重新的法理他們搬出這個法理說修法後就會適用在進行中的這個案件那也就是說現在修法的話很明顯不管國民黨嘴巴上說是或不是很明顯都會救了謝國良所以我認為在這個情況之下的話如果這項法案現在有這麼嚴重的一個爭議的話那是不是要擱置或者是說我們大家講清楚就是"},{"start":8746.636,"end":8775.116,"text":"下一任的立委的這個任期我們再來進行相關的修法我們這樣其實才能夠讓台灣社會針對我們國會一個來關乎到台灣人民權益以及台灣長治久安問題的一個修法是真正能夠說服大家說我們真的是為了台灣選罷法整個的完整性跟長期性而不是說今天國民黨他自己的民意代表或他們現在所長要被罷免的時候他們就提出修法"},{"start":8775.356,"end":8800.953,"text":"同樣的 未來如果有報復性的罷免發生在民進黨的民意代表身上的時候如果由民進黨來提出修法 一樣會面臨到相同的質疑所以我覺得在顧慮到整個台灣公民社會的不管你要說和諧 或者是說我們對於法律我們對於我們國家行政機關我們立法機關的信任度這件事情上我覺得這一次的修法在這個時機點其實是非常不適當的啦"},{"start":8802.873,"end":8824.858,"text":"今天公聽會是要針對修法的建議所以我還是會提出我這邊的幾項建議第一個是這個罷免的政治獻金的部分其實我們在罷韓的那個時候因為罷免方式沒有辦法來提出 申請所謂的政治獻金專戶所以當時的罷韓團體三個 台灣基進黨 公民割草行動 以及WeCare高雄當時我們使用的是台灣基進黨的政治獻金帳戶"},{"start":8825.898,"end":8851.544,"text":"同樣的這個部分也導致我們內部的整個人力的龐大的耗損但是我們可以看到事業室包含說基隆的這個拆糧行動他們就非常辛苦因為他們沒有辦法一群年輕人他們沒有辦法有一個罷免謝國良的政治獻金賬戶所以罷免案到底在罷免方這邊可不可以有相關合法的政治獻金賬戶我覺得這個專壺的部分應該要在修法當中去被討論到但是我們這次好像只有討論到門檻我覺得比較可惜"},{"start":8853.644,"end":8876.863,"text":"那第二個是罷免聯署書各自的部分因為我注意到這次的修法其實有提出說聯署書要附上身分證等等我們先不管當年黃國昌是怎麼主張但我的認定是如果今天我們要去增加我們的聯署書各自認定的整個資訊量甚至是它的這個代表性跟公正性的話那聯署書的收受 收取它真的適合放在公民團體家嗎"},{"start":8877.944,"end":8901.024,"text":"如果今天發動的團體他其實不是一個法律立案的團體他只是可能幾個網紅大家揪在一起說要罷免台灣民眾真的願意不管你今天是藍的還是綠的你真的可以敢把你的聯署書跟你的身分證銀本放在這些人的家裡嗎我們當初罷韓的時候我們怕聯署書被國民黨拿去燒掉甚至怕我們總部被人家放火我們的聯署書沒有一份放在我們的總部我們都放在鄉下的工廠每天用貨車載"},{"start":8902.205,"end":8902.285,"text":"公職人員選舉"},{"start":8921.826,"end":8944.117,"text":"那另外一個就是單一選區跟複數選區的設計也會有一個問題因為複數選區我們都知道在藍區的綠議員很容易被罷免在綠區的藍議員也很容易被罷免所以這也是為什麼裁量行動進行到尾聲的時候到這個二屆連署書快要截止的時候朱立倫會跳出來一句朱立倫跟這個林濤會跳出來講說可能會針對這個通知委來做出相關的反制行動"},{"start":8944.417,"end":8973.368,"text":"其實也是一樣的意思因為他們知道基隆藍大於綠嘛所以要罷免綠的罷免最象徵性的我如果今天是國民黨的溫川會我也會主張罷免通知委因為很簡單因為對他們來講這個成本最低所以我們的罷免設計針對復出選區單一選區甚至行政首長我們的標準甚至我們剛講到還有討論到這個里長我們的標準的分層分級我覺得這個部分也必須要在這一次的修法當中應該要去被完整的提到"},{"start":8974.748,"end":8989.354,"text":"立院是何意志?國民黨在敏感時期提出了一個他們覺得還不錯的方案遭受到社會大眾非常多的非議和質疑目前為止我認為也沒有講得很清楚"},{"start":8989.534,"end":8990.134,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會公聽會議"},{"start":9011.079,"end":9011.44,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法實務"},{"start":9032.183,"end":9059.893,"text":"關切到立法院裡面所有的民意代表甚至全體國人的罷免跟選舉的一個權利那他怎麼會是國民黨一個黨團提案然後大家就針對這個法案討論呢應該是各黨團都應該要有相關的版本才對所以問題還是回到於就是說我們要怎麼樣去理性法我認為國民黨雖然我們是敵對政黨但是我覺得國民黨要想清楚你的法案到底要怎麼去說服人民這個法案是好的這個法案是適合的那我會覺得比較好的方法"},{"start":9060.353,"end":9060.553,"text":"韓國瑜的選票"},{"start":9078.605,"end":9101.6,"text":"罷免韓國瑜的選票高過於韓國瑜當年的當選選票的時候國民黨說這個是民主最悲哀的一天嚴厲譴責這個罷免是一個政治性的動作可是當罷免陳柏惟的選票並沒有高於陳柏惟當時的當選選票的時候國民黨卻說這個是民主的勝利這個是地方民主的勝利"},{"start":9102.481,"end":9121.426,"text":"所以很顯然的這個政黨他並不在乎那個選舉的門檻的調高或者是降低這個並不是他真正在乎的事情他只是現在急了現在有一些他自己個人或者是各政黨自己本身的需求所以他提出了這樣一個法案然後要求全國人民來討論然後要求大家把他吞下去講白了現在確實沒有藍白"},{"start":9123.486,"end":9134.239,"text":"誰知道民眾黨明天會不會突然又同意 對不對所以沒有藍白過不了的法案但是這樣的法案真的能夠讓台灣更好嗎讓我們的選舉辦法更好嗎我覺得是高度的質疑好 謝謝大家好 謝謝現在因為我們請劉淑冰教授"},{"start":9151.983,"end":9166.521,"text":"主席：立法委員：還有在場的機關代表：各位學者專家及媒體同仁大家好那我今天很高興有機會到大院來分享我們的研究經驗"},{"start":9167.402,"end":9170.825,"text":"今天的一個討論提綱最主要是針對兩者一個是先辦原住民的在籍投票是否是能夠作為我國在做在籍投票當中的一個試金石那第二個部分就是說要對於罷免的這樣的一些制度的實施是不是需要做一些改變"},{"start":9189.799,"end":9189.839,"text":"公職人員選舉"},{"start":9210.482,"end":9210.623,"text":"的確看得出來"},{"start":9227.003,"end":9227.243,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況"},{"start":9251.182,"end":9271.974,"text":"投票率顯示出來所謂再級投票對於離島的影響是讓投票率低落是造成的最主要的原因好 那我們繼續再往下看那這邊所呈現出來是這樣子的情況所呈現是投票率是有待提升的這樣的情況那就也是呈現出來的因為目前的再級投票呢他就是"},{"start":9273.075,"end":9273.215,"text":"公職人員選舉"},{"start":9288.152,"end":9291.233,"text":"在內政部所提出來的建議當中是以移轉投票為主要的建議方式提倡選民在投票日當天如果沒有辦法去投票的話就是在事前的時間內向副政機關去做個申請之後他就可以在當天去投票"},{"start":9310.518,"end":9311.579,"text":"投票率大幅提高"},{"start":9327.746,"end":9353.624,"text":"我們也知道不在籍投票的確是要增加在各國裡面是要增加投票率跟所謂的公民參與甚至就深化民主的一種很重要的方式在這邊可是它在做實施的時候有幾項前提是很重要的部分第一個就是信賴就是我信賴是否是一個政治制度第二部分屬於投票技術投票的技術上面它必須要符合到所謂秘密資訊安全"},{"start":9355.845,"end":9374.694,"text":"正確還要快速那這個情況之下呢我們現在可以聽到是說在196個全世界的國家當中目前有115個國家他是有實行的是不在籍投票制度那我國不在其中但是有必要就是緩快的實施但是在實施中我跟大家講就是說前面已經說這兩大信賴跟技術的問題要去把它解決掉好那這幾個投票的當中我現在列出來這三個應該是有五個那這五個當中呢"},{"start":9384.998,"end":9408.277,"text":"目前在前面三者他就所謂是在實施的是用的是用的是這個到當地就是在一個這個當地就是投票所去投票的這個時間包括他是不同時間的部分或是上次是到一個投票所去實施這種部分指定投票所去這個部分實施那這個比例當中呢就大概有74%是這種情況的"},{"start":9411.019,"end":9412.081,"text":"通訊投票目前全世界有58%的國家實施通訊投票更先進的是10%使用網路投票"},{"start":9427.603,"end":9430.824,"text":"好那這邊呢當然我們現在知道如果說在網路投票當中尤其像在報稅的時候不是有所謂自然人憑證嗎如果我們慢慢也可以逐步的去實施到這個部分的話其實你報稅都可以那投票應該也不會是大問題但是時間性比較慢慢投票"},{"start":9442.808,"end":9442.988,"text":"議題公民投票"},{"start":9461.386,"end":9461.506,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9484.432,"end":9507.257,"text":"好那這邊是我對於那另外包括是說對於原住民投票當中如果說他們有人缺位的時候必須目前的時候是達到二分之一以上才可以做補選這個狀況其實是有點應該為了學這個制度的一致性對於區域立委跟原住民立委這邊應該採取一致的方式就只要有缺應該就可以再補的方式這是我支持是這樣的一個觀點那另外在"},{"start":9510.097,"end":9530.636,"text":"我們看到的是在罷免相關的修訂這部分我們看到的是罷免它主要的性質是一個輔助的性質輔助的民主制度的性質那最主要的是針對公職人員貪污瀆職或是行為不檢或是施政違背選民意願及地方利益所要做的事情"},{"start":9531.337,"end":9535.159,"text":"這個情況之下呢當然有這個目標這個存在的時候那我們看到過去的台灣的這樣的一個罷免的這個制度實施上面在1992年開始到2017我們從這個民主改革之後罷免的過去的在前面這段時間之內的它包括的是投票利率達到50%那同意票呢也要大於不同意票這個情況那這個歷史上是成功率是比較少"},{"start":9556.368,"end":9560.352,"text":"但是在2017年實施之後呢這個部分的那個門檻降低了齁那就是兩個門檻是有效同意票的票數呢必須要多於不同意票那另外第二個門檻是在於說同意票數要達到選舉選區的選舉人數總數差四分之以上才會通過齁"},{"start":9576.687,"end":9582.049,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法當中有兩類公職人員第一類是針對單一選區多數決當選者這部分我認為是OK的原因是因為剛才有提供李燕榮小姐提供的數據目前罷免的制度上投票率大概只有四成"},{"start":9600.094,"end":9600.334,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法實務"},{"start":9622.779,"end":9628.223,"text":"百分之二十的是如果有不同意你的話那這樣子其實還是不會過嘛但是有百分之二十五的情況他去就是說他贊成你去投票支持你這個情況之下的事實上是很清楚的表示你真的做不好再待30秒就好了"},{"start":9641.072,"end":9665.097,"text":"那對於復甦選區的部分當選者很容易被罷免的原因是什麼包括是在縣市的議員或是所謂鄉鎮市民代表他們因為當選的比例當選的可能就是百分之五就可以當選了那現在這個情況之下你要百分之二十五罷免的確是很明顯的是他是做得不好那所以也沒有問題但是剛才有很多包括陳柏惟前委員他也有提到是說為什麼現在很大部分就是說既然罷免"},{"start":9666.557,"end":9667.417,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進"},{"start":9690.963,"end":9693.324,"text":"簽名或蓋章背註有人檢核就蓋章做更嚴謹的做法用第16任總統副總統嚴蜀仁的格式來看是用切結書的部分"},{"start":9711.454,"end":9711.594,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":9736.264,"end":9736.764,"text":"以上是我的意見 謝謝指教"},{"start":9767.818,"end":9772.346,"text":"謝謝接下來請高津素梅召委發言完之後我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":9779.576,"end":9796.081,"text":"主席與與會的專家學者們以及機關代表大家好憲法徵修條文的第4條是原住民族立委席次的保障然後憲法徵修條文的第10條第12項是談原住民族政治參與還有發展的保障"},{"start":9796.941,"end":9815.492,"text":"這些都是憲法明文賦予原住民族參政權的制度性的保障但是我們來看實務上我們卻屢屢發生了權責機關不當的規劃選制或者是在選務作業上面有損及到原住民族的參政權益"},{"start":9816.212,"end":9835.328,"text":"所以今天我就選罷法裡面對原住民選制當中的投票秘密一任限制還有選區的限制三個方向的缺失在這裡跟大家來表達我的意見跟看法那個我先談的是選罷法裡面原住民選制的秘密投票"},{"start":9836.149,"end":9851.094,"text":"我們看一下中選會在投開票所設置形式上雖然有保障選舉的秘密性還有它的公平性可是實際上卻因為投開票所設置的規劃不良反而讓人"},{"start":9851.914,"end":9875.925,"text":"兼接識別了原住民選舉人的投票意向這如同兼接的亮票也讓原住民的族人陷入被盯梢的風險我們以2020年立法委員選舉為例全國有17226間的原民立委投票所當中選舉人3人以內的投票所有"},{"start":9879.026,"end":9900.215,"text":"8176間其中就有926間的選舉人是寧可不去投票的因為他擔心他的投票傾向會被揭露第二個我要再談的是移任限制方面那麼我國立法委員選舉制度在第7屆的選舉時候產生了政策上面的變化我們把區域的立委變更為單一選區制"},{"start":9903.076,"end":9927.666,"text":"並且規範一任任期只要達一年以上就可以進行補選了但是當時也就是在96年的時候選罷法全案修正的時候並沒有同步的調整原住民立法委員出缺的制度原住民立委出缺的時候仍然在目前是要要求缺額達二分之一才可以補選"},{"start":9928.806,"end":9949.225,"text":"也就是說三立原住民立法委員或平立原住民立法委員在他們的各自選區裡面三名立法委中必須要缺而兩名才可以進行補選我認為這是目前選舉制度的荒謬之處大家都知道三園只有三席平原也只有三席"},{"start":9950.125,"end":9973.058,"text":"達到兩個人全有才可以補選也就是說只有一位立法委員在全國性的原住民選區當中替族人發聲跟服務所以非常的荒謬同樣是立法委員的選舉我們會有如此的區別的待遇這無疑是剝奪了原住民的族人透過補選再一次選舉或參政的機會"},{"start":9975.939,"end":9975.979,"text":"選區限制"},{"start":9997.35,"end":10025.488,"text":"原住民涉及在非原住民族地區今年已經確定超過了全體原住民人口的50%以上而多數原住民跟非原住民地區居住的人們也已經建立起非常深厚的感情連結而原住民也是中華民國的公民本來就應該可以以公民的身份來參選各級的民意代表這是公民的權利也是義務"},{"start":10027.89,"end":10043.479,"text":"主管機關的相關含釋是說原住民排除在一般選區之外甚至要要求我們的族人如果你要選一般區域的民意代表的話你就必須要放棄原住民的身份"},{"start":10044.119,"end":10044.159,"text":"公職人員選舉"},{"start":10064.878,"end":10080.992,"text":"中上所述我強力支持原住民不在籍投票必須先行我有呼籲內政部還有中選會應該要儘速研議原住民不在籍投票先行的方案"},{"start":10081.753,"end":10108.88,"text":"因為上述提到的不管是投票秘密﹐一院限制的缺失﹐我們可以利用原住民不在籍投票的制度來解決﹐這既可以處理投開票所設置不良的問題﹐也可以節省原住民立委補選的行政費用﹐更可以幫助族人省去投票的時候的交通成本﹐以及訂票的困境"},{"start":10109.6,"end":10124.746,"text":"最後我也請在場的各位專家學者也能夠共同來支持來實質保障憲法賦予原住民族的參政權益當然我剛剛聽到了非常多的專家學者對於原住民的選舉制度上"},{"start":10125.166,"end":10125.526,"text":"高津昭緯"},{"start":10640.303,"end":10640.864,"text":"許冠哲副秘書長"},{"start":10657.529,"end":10683.925,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位與會的先進代表 大家午安 大家好 我是經濟民主聯合許冠哲謝謝大家 謝謝立法院給公民團體這個機會 在這邊表達我們的心聲以下我的簡報 針對程序問題 還有實質內容的問題 來提出我們的觀察 還有建議首先 我們要嚴正地來質疑 這一次立法院內政委員會拍手的邏輯到底是什麼"},{"start":10684.775,"end":10704.321,"text":"各位看到這個簡報左邊的圖是本會期內政委員會已經有提案代審的立法公職人員選舉罷免法的草案總共有17案但是這一次排審只排了7案其他10案去了哪裡為什麼把這10案剔掉為什麼又選了這7案"},{"start":10707.423,"end":10736.005,"text":"那我們來看到這七案分別是什麼右邊的表格前面一到五案分別是關於原住民選舉權益問題的內容包括了秘密投票缺額補選的問題移選投票的問題選舉補助的問題這些原住民權益選舉的問題都相當的重要都應該被討論但是第六案明顯是一個跟這個題目完全不相干的條高罷免門檻的修法案"},{"start":10737.338,"end":10744.755,"text":"在面對質疑之後 看到苗頭不對 國民黨趕快再把第7案 吳秉瑞的提案列入 當成幌子"},{"start":10746.001,"end":10771.635,"text":"我們非常大膽的假設中國民黨這一次併成的邏輯就是要以檢討人民投票制度之名來行沒收人民罷免權之實剛剛上一輪 張偉 高金素美委員的發言全部也都是針對原住民選舉權益的問題來討論完全沒有提到調高罷免門檻的事情如果"},{"start":10773.018,"end":10796.633,"text":"內政委員會真的關注原住民選舉權益的問題為什麼本會期同樣有立法委員所提出的直接定一個新的法關於原住民總統副總統選舉罷免還有原住民立委選舉罷免不在期投票的法案為什麼不一併排審關於同樣是中國國民黨籍鄭天才委員所提出的"},{"start":10798.121,"end":10822.267,"text":"總統副總統選罷法的修正案關於總統選舉時原住民不在籍的投票為什麼不一併排審難道原住民的選舉權益問題只會發生在立法委員的選舉時候嗎不會發生在總統的時候嗎要秘密保障只要保障立法委員的原住民選舉不用保障原住民在投總統時候的秘密投票嗎"},{"start":10824.244,"end":10852.717,"text":"我們可以大膽的假設明天審查會是不是我們可以就集中討論原住民相關選舉的提案然後最後因為時間不足等等的找個因素來就把最後一個調高罷免門檻來用保留送協商的方式一個月協商期之後冷凍期過了之後又可以馬上到二讀來做表決然後再一次的重蹈覆轍國會安全法案一樣的細碼"},{"start":10854.161,"end":10859.687,"text":"等於說在委員會階段沒有經過實質的討論、審查、表決就要讓這個充滿爭議的法案來通過我想這一點我們要讓台灣的人民知道這個排審邏輯有相當大的瑕疵有相當大來保送調高大美門檻的嫌疑緊接著我們要針對實質的內容"},{"start":10874.649,"end":10902.066,"text":"來討論就職未滿一年者﹐不得為罷免之提議與連署我們認為﹐變相的延長﹐讓這個應該被罷免的爛立委﹐歹戲脫棚的時間各位我們要知道﹐罷免案的程序﹐包括了提議﹐連署﹐最後罷免的程序這之間﹐有非常多﹐時間的規範比如說查對提議的人名冊﹐我們以立法為例﹐要25日查對之後﹐可以有補件﹐或領取連署數的時間﹐10天"},{"start":10904.708,"end":10917.039,"text":"臨選時段有60天再來查對臨選人名冊又有40天接著又有補件或者是公告罷免案成立10天的時間接著我們要在罷免案成立之後20到60日內來進行罷免投票"},{"start":10919.401,"end":10940.041,"text":"前前後後加起來大概是7個月的時間原本我們推算可揹罷免的時間按照現行的法制就大概是在一年但是你現在立了一個新的法草案之後很可能我們在這一年之內都不能夠提議都不能夠討論都不能再討論你要不要連署你一旦做了這個行為可能就處罰囉"},{"start":10940.982,"end":10951.35,"text":"我們變相的中國民黨提案來讓罷免的時間變相的就是就職嘛一年加上大約七個月的時間讓這個應該被罷免的爛立委逮襲脫棚已經違背了原本立法一年內來罷免一年後可以來被罷免這樣的精神"},{"start":10961.809,"end":10977.584,"text":"接著我們要討論有效同意票數需超過被罷免人當選得票數才算通過的內容我們認為這個提案中共國民黨就是正式向台灣人民宣告從此台灣人沒有罷免的可能"},{"start":10979.045,"end":10994.13,"text":"我們把近三次 近年三起有關於立法委員被罷免的數據來調出來向大家說明各位從數據上我們明顯的看到投票率跟罷免時的投票率選舉時的投票率"},{"start":10995.666,"end":10996.046,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免"},{"start":11015.899,"end":11016.079,"text":"公職人員選舉"},{"start":11036.291,"end":11036.311,"text":"2020年數據"},{"start":11066.491,"end":11081.72,"text":"公民團體嚴正反對最後我要秀出這張簡報這個照片是6月21號兩個多禮拜前立法院通過否決維持原決議否決行政院所提的復議案針對國會濫權法案之後"},{"start":11084.261,"end":11110.181,"text":"晚上9點半在立法院的現場我要向各位說明當天群眾沒有任何動員沒有特定政黨的補助車票沒有便當的補助大家願意待到晚上9點半就是因為臺灣人民真的非常關心現在國會的狀況從國會亂權法案到我們提出了有七大項讓臺灣民主倒退的法案其中一項就包括今天"},{"start":11110.962,"end":11139.387,"text":"要調高人民的罷免權這項法案絕對會引起人民的憤怒絕對會引起人民的關注在當天晚上九點半我們知道復議已經沒有如我們的意但是為什麼大家願意待到這麼晚為什麼到九點半還沒有散去仍有三位人在立法院附近就是因為我們要告訴藍白的立委國會是人民的我們要告訴各位你們是人民所選出來的你們做了不對的事情我們有權利義務責任站出來支持你們"},{"start":11139.887,"end":11143.15,"text":"也希望你們懸崖勒馬 正是人民的心聲 以上 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位與會的朋友 大家好各位聽我在喊就知道我一開始就要講原名議題了"},{"start":11167.93,"end":11189.392,"text":"那很榮幸應邀參與此次大院的公聽會那麼接下來我就原民的參政權的部分議題以及罷免制度的這個問題提出我的一些想法首先在原住民參政權的這個部分無論是不在籍投票或者是保障原住民投票的這個秘密"},{"start":11190.291,"end":11211.613,"text":"自然是以提高投票率﹐促進族群成員的參政權的實踐為思考制度的基本原則我們先來看這個不在籍投票的議題其實我們現在看起來就整個制度的研究和輿論的反應整體社會其實對於所謂的不在籍投票基本上是樂觀其成的但是在實務上面不管再潮再野"},{"start":11212.594,"end":11222.406,"text":"講句坦白話各有考量什麼時候才能夠上線實施遙遙無期或者不太信任通信投票制度或者大家不同政黨都在計算"},{"start":11223.363,"end":11251.35,"text":"這個不在籍投票到底對我有利不利但是如果各政黨對於全面實施不在籍投票還有疑慮的時候呢那麼或許我會建議先在總統、副總統以及立委選舉先試辦原住民不在籍投票它會是一個試金石然後再依據實際試辦的這個成效擴展到其他有需要的群體那我的理由有三點第一點從前面有好幾位朋友已經提到了"},{"start":11252.07,"end":11279.746,"text":"由於原住民族群﹐大量的離開戶籍地﹐到外面去工作﹐那麼﹐或者求學﹐這個比例也相當的明顯﹐所以﹐實際上面在許多的投票當中﹐尤其是總統立委的投票當中﹐我們的投票率相當的低﹐等於是我們的參政權變相﹐因為現在的制度﹐變相被剝奪﹐然後第二點﹐對於原住民而言﹐其實﹐不管是總統投總統的票﹐或投原住民的票﹐我們的選區是全國的﹐"},{"start":11282.483,"end":11294.868,"text":"所以都還是在同一個選區裡面只是投在不同的票箱所以你的工作地如果是在新北的板橋區你在裡面投票"},{"start":11296.42,"end":11311.253,"text":"或者是你的戶籍地是在花蓮的玉里鎮你在那邊投票其實那個效果基本上是一模一樣的只是投在那個不同的投票箱而已不會有像區域立委如果要去做一轉投票的話呢技術的問題的克服可能會稍微比較困難"},{"start":11312.916,"end":11330.843,"text":"第三點,大家也不用太過度在意原民的不在籍投票在政治上面有什麼效應我的預估是這樣子,因為原民的不在籍投票所會增加的票數在總統大選上面,講句坦白話,無關輕重因為我們的投票數並不多"},{"start":11332.083,"end":11346.329,"text":"再來就立委而言我自己的瞭解其實所有的原民立委也沒有辦法能夠把握因者不在意投票所增加的票數對他一定有利還是不利大家還是要各自想辦法去做爭取"},{"start":11347.869,"end":11368.069,"text":"接著我們就來看這個不在籍投票到底該如何實施呢我覺得實施的方式必須要跟原住民的秘密投票的保障問題一併考量在各種不在籍投票的實施方式當中個人認為目前是以移轉投票最為可行最為保險通信投票的話因為社會信任的問題我是覺得暫時先不要採取"},{"start":11371.492,"end":11394.899,"text":"雖然很感謝剛才謝老師支持那個我們原民通訊投票為什麼會這樣認為呢因為其實移轉投票早就在現有之路當中部分實施了比如說選務工作人員他可以在工作地投票所投票在一定條件之下或者我們部分都會去非原民地區的原住民選民其實早就已經開始有比較微型的這種移轉投票的這樣一種狀況出現了"},{"start":11398.76,"end":11423.803,"text":"但是這個問題就會牽涉到說現有涉及都會區或者是非原民地區的原住民他的選舉的這個投票的秘密如何被保障的問題因為講句坦白話雖然在選務機關對於都會區原民的這個投票是容許可以移轉把兩三個投票所的原住民選民移轉到同一個投開票所去投票"},{"start":11425.605,"end":11429.956,"text":"但是不管中央或地方的選務機關在規劃上面非常的消極"},{"start":11431.627,"end":11459.426,"text":"所以還是產生了蠻多的這個後遺症以我本人是山地原住民為例我的戶籍在非原民地區的宜蘭園山鄉多數的時候地方的選務機關根本就沒有問我就把我放在我所屬李寧的投開票所而且我在那個票箱裡面大概只有1到2票的山地原住民這個搞到我每次投票的時候非常的尷尬還好我的山地原住民的幾位立委朋友他們也不太在乎我投給誰"},{"start":11460.845,"end":11462.006,"text":"單就保障都會區和非原民地區涉及原民選民的投票秘密而言"},{"start":11480.098,"end":11498.805,"text":"建議朝向由地方選務單位主動去集中投票所的這個方向去規劃尤其在於交通便利地區沒有必要非得在所屬的里聯區進行投票尤其是立委選舉的部分以我為例袁三香他其實可以把所有的原住民選票集中在單一的投票"},{"start":11499.205,"end":11519.715,"text":"投開票數就可以了 或者是設置到兩或三個而不要把它全部打散我覺得這樣比較可行然後依前面我說的這種所謂的集中投票規劃的這個制度為基礎再去搭配非原民地區未涉及原民選民的投票地點的選擇如此以來非原民地區未涉及原民選民的參政權"},{"start":11520.675,"end":11545.959,"text":"以及非原民地區所有原住民選民的投票秘密的保障應該有機會一次解決最後我就稍微帶一下我對於罷免制度這個議題的看法我是念政治哲學的講一堂白話近年的罷免風潮其實就我來講已經演變到其實我搞不清楚到底是對於公職人員表現的合理評估還是政黨認同仇恨政治的宣洩管道"},{"start":11546.519,"end":11571.005,"text":"而且太過度讓我們全民的心思過度限定於其間我認為這對於整個整體的國家發展並不是發展前景並不是一件好事雖然那是一種權力可是權力的過當行使到底對我們國家造成什麼影響這我們必須要思考所以從這個角度來看如果能夠提高罷免門檻可以讓全民的腦袋稍微冷靜一下的話或許我是支持的"},{"start":11571.545,"end":11590.581,"text":"但是如果提高罷免門檻其實也沒有辦法去緩和全民情緒的話你提高罷免門檻有的時候其實也是多餘的最後我要引用我們原住民族卑南族的前輩孫大川老師他在1995年於夾縫中的族群建構這本書裡面的一段文字當作結語"},{"start":11592.502,"end":11597.227,"text":"經過一百年的發展,民族的根苗始終在族群內鬥的邊緣苟延殘喘。即使以民主化發展較為健康的台灣經驗來看,1970年代之後,族群關係反而因權力鬥爭而有日益惡化的現象。"},{"start":11607.836,"end":11632.131,"text":"看來漢族一百年的民主路程是白走了或許我們真該停下腳步 釐清並嚴肅檢討我們的民族病理該是民族感情的就交給感情來處理處理不了就應當學習以更大的民族來解決爭端我們相信以省籍或地域觀念為基礎的台灣本土化運動從原住民的觀點來說是不可理解的"},{"start":11632.691,"end":11640.422,"text":"以歷史仇恨的清算為出發點的權力重組只有加深這塊土地上的罪惡以上 吳林郎 謝謝各位謝謝接下來請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":11657.464,"end":11685.052,"text":"主席與會的先進我想今天我們的公聽會主題主要是針對在原住民參政權在選罷法當中如何設計規範但是事實上很熱門的大家關心的就是罷免門檻的提高這一題其實從過去長期觀察台灣的罷免的發起跟成功和失敗的例子其實有些根本的思維要做釐清首先我們有人提到分類我們的民選公職人員有首長行政首長跟民意代表"},{"start":11685.872,"end":11702.002,"text":"民意代表的部分有單一選區跟複數選區單一選區的民意代表的選舉模式當然相較於行政首長是相近的因此這種情況之下選民意識的表達透過多個候選人的競爭"},{"start":11703.963,"end":11704.103,"text":"公職人員選舉"},{"start":11720.077,"end":11720.277,"text":"公職人員選舉"},{"start":11736.752,"end":11758.023,"text":"有投票率有100位公民有超過一半來參與這次公民投票而參與投票當中贊成的多於反對那當然就是超過四分之一贊成的顯然超過四分之一如果贊成多於反對而且要多於四分之一就表示出席投票者有過半數來支持這個公民投票案"},{"start":11758.743,"end":11771.313,"text":"所以如果用這個角度來思考,現行的罷免門檻有點是對於被提起罷免提案的公職人員進行一次類似公民投票的信任投票"},{"start":11772.165,"end":11790.711,"text":"那麼從這個角度來看我們再回到第一個題目來看那到底單一選區跟複數選區就現實在操作上是不是出現了不一致的情況沒錯目前單一選區的公職人員的罷免門檻通常低於他的當選門檻可是相對的多席次的複數選區的民意代表"},{"start":11791.351,"end":11811.987,"text":"他的罷免門檻是遠高於他的當選門檻所以我們用門檻門檻這個字來思考就忽略了其實罷免某個程度上他並不是針對該當選者受害的權利而是我要說的第三點形同對該次選區的公職人員進行一個不信任投票"},{"start":11812.928,"end":11829.294,"text":"換言之目前的罷免的提議就可以視同為是不信任案的提出達到了二階段滿足了罷免門檻視同對於該選區的公職人員的一種不信任那接下來做什麼事情呢接下來就類似在一般內閣各國國家當"},{"start":11832.129,"end":11851.701,"text":"對於內閣或對於國會的執政者有達到不信任的時候那通常要重新尋求民意是否支持支持誰所以接下來就是進行一個正式的選舉有沒有這樣的例子呢 有第四點我要說的是在現行美國加州的州長"},{"start":11852.847,"end":11874.696,"text":"美國加州的州長的罷免制度他就是當這個目前的美國加州州長的罷免成案有三次最近在2022年那他的情況是怎樣先任的州長經過公民連署達到了罷免成立案的門檻之後那麼就擇定一天同時進行兩項投票"},{"start":11877.042,"end":11882.123,"text":"第一項投票要同意是否罷免現職的這位州長那規定要罷免過50%這個罷免案才能夠同意但是同時選民會投下一個什麼票投下誰來接任的投票"},{"start":11894.926,"end":11915.155,"text":"那當然現任面臨被罷免的州長﹖他也可以選擇同時列名在其上在這種情況之下﹖如果說第一項的同意票沒有過半數那第二項的第一名﹖就是沒有被罷免成功當然現任州長﹖不管你第二項的投票第一名是誰"},{"start":11916.543,"end":11942.145,"text":"有可能 第二項投票的第一名 州長沒有第一名 州長拿到45%第一名呢 拿到46%可是呢 州長在罷免同意票上呢 卻沒有過半 這時候州長就沒有被罷免但是如果州長被罷免了 那麼就由第二項的最高票來繼任州長當然啦 那如果最高票還是原任的州長呢 那就由次高票來擔任"},{"start":11943.379,"end":11961.089,"text":"所以以這樣的思考來看,這樣的一個罷免的設計,他就無所...他當然還是有一個罷免門檻的過關但是呢,他同時解決了選舉的經濟問題我們現在看到了目前前高雄市長被罷免的情況他在罷免之後,還要再進行辦理補選"},{"start":11962.776,"end":11962.976,"text":"公職人員選舉法實務現況精進"},{"start":11983.47,"end":11998.218,"text":"我想這就涉及到罷免不得進行宣傳相關的對於罷免一種消極的規定所以如果從這樣來算我們有三個問題希望後續能夠思考第一罷免的對象要不要區分行政首長跟民意代表第二罷免要不要區分單一選區跟複數選區"},{"start":12000.419,"end":12018.226,"text":"第三﹐罷免的同時是不是要同時並同設計接任人選﹐如果罷免成功﹐接任人選的選舉﹐以便讓整個社會的民意﹐在同時去除原任者之後﹐可以順利的馬上的產生下一位﹐值得民意附託的人﹐以上接下來我們請簡年佑同學"},{"start":12033.218,"end":12048.156,"text":"主席：各位委員：在場各位先進大家好我是簡年佑我的阿美族名是阿貴因為比較接近這個午餐時間我可能就盡快的提出我的一些看法跟建議來救教各位那也包括"},{"start":12048.677,"end":12049.077,"text":"公職人員選舉委員"},{"start":12073.797,"end":12074.058,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法實務"},{"start":12088.578,"end":12109.423,"text":"提出修法的法案當中我們可以看到包括今天的公聽會也是一樣有一大部分的學者專家都在討論這個一般選區的選舉罷免尤其在罷免的部分但是也比如說像我跟剛剛老師一些部分的只針對這個原住民族的選舉罷免"},{"start":12111.633,"end":12119.067,"text":"但我認為這個立法跟修法應該是要有邏輯一致性的就包括說我們今天在討論選舉罷免的時候是不是應該把"},{"start":12125.123,"end":12153.106,"text":"包括全部的選舉罷免會發生的各個群體放在一起討論變得好像我們今天好聽一點是在講說希望也透過這個罷免條文的高度爭議性讓社會大眾也看到原住民族參政權利現在目前受限的狀況但是講難聽一點也等於是把這個原住民族現在參政權利的受限"},{"start":12154.107,"end":12157.698,"text":"當作是討論罷免的時候 拿來作為一個包裝跟裝飾"},{"start":12159.95,"end":12183.107,"text":"第三點我要針對的是提綱裡面也有提出說原住民族的選舉跟罷免是不是應該要訂定專法或者是說在現行的這些公職人員選罷法裡面進行討論我個人的建議是我認為應該要考慮由專法來訂定理由是在於說我接下來再進一步的說明各項點次"},{"start":12185.165,"end":12209.184,"text":"第一個是我們在討論原住民族參政權利的時候應該是要注意到我們的憲法當中的要求其實是跟一般選區的選舉人有別的我們在定定或是說在法律要完善這個憲法權利的當中應該要優先的考慮的是原住民族參政權的實質平等以及原住民族最後要達到自治自決的權利"},{"start":12210.805,"end":12229.615,"text":"這個才是我們在框定這些選舉罷免讓原住民族參政包括選舉跟被選舉權的時候應該要考慮的立法目的這是跟一般選區的一般選舉人所要考慮的立法目的可能就有一個前提上的差異"},{"start":12230.708,"end":12255.243,"text":"好那接下來針對各個點字包括這個不在籍投票我這邊要提出的看法是通訊投票跟移轉投票是不同的因為就如同我剛剛講的這個原住民族的選制在我們目前的規定上本來就是如果在立法委員而言是全國的選區那中間是區分山園跟平原"},{"start":12255.803,"end":12255.943,"text":"公職人員選舉"},{"start":12275.089,"end":12289.455,"text":"全人要投票的族人要主動提出移轉投票的申請但是我們今天看到中選會提供的報告當中也有說這幾年陸續都已經在針對投開票所的合併做出一些努力"},{"start":12291.041,"end":12312.092,"text":"所以在這個事情上面應該要由族人主動來提出還是說中選會繼續依照目前的努力方向去把個別的投開票所合併在一起讓他投票跟開票的時候可以維持他的秘密投票被保障這件事情確實是立法形成的自由但是這個中選會的報告提出說近幾年以11屆來說"},{"start":12321.874,"end":12336.688,"text":"原住民的選舉人只有一個人的投票所的比率已經降到了這個5%或是6%不過我們要考量的是個人的基本權利原住民族的參政權利即使今天被形同量票的只有一張票"},{"start":12337.429,"end":12358.6,"text":"被限制或剝奪基本權利的族人只有一個人那他確實還是一樣是憲法所不允許的所以我們應該要在這個修法當中再盡量給這個移轉投票一些空間但是這個也提醒我們說在進行這些立法先前我們必須要進到一定的立法事實調查的"},{"start":12359.54,"end":12360.421,"text":"在原住民族的選舉當中﹖"},{"start":12384.568,"end":12400.928,"text":"立委跟總統也是跟其他的所有的主流社會的投票人一樣是一起進行的如果我們今天只修了公職人員選舉罷免法針對立委的部分可以允許原住民族族人做引轉投票的話"},{"start":12403.673,"end":12428.532,"text":"試問有多少人會願意只為了投下這個立委的選票但是他不考慮去投總統的票所以我的意思是說這個移轉投票如果只針對立委來進行修正的話根本也不太可能去達到提高原住民族族人投票意願的這個目的所以我想這個就是"},{"start":12430.017,"end":12458.373,"text":"立法的邏輯一致性應該是要一併的考量的那針對這個原住民族委員的遞補或是有缺額的時候應該要遞補或是補選我想這個部分會擁有更多的立法形成自由的空間只是目前的這個缺額要達二分之一以上才可以進行補選的規定是已經嚴重的侵害到原住民族的"},{"start":12459.881,"end":12489.119,"text":"政治權利我想這是毋庸置疑的最後想針對的是這個一般選區跟原住民選區如果是原住民族族人的被選舉權的這個部分他在目前依照這個內政部的意見可能都是說你一定要放棄你的原住民身份才可以登記為一般選區的被選舉人但是也如同我今天作為一個阿美族身份的"},{"start":12490.626,"end":12492.871,"text":"投票人我可以在這裡跟大家討論一般選舉的這個選舉跟罷免的規定"},{"start":12500.831,"end":12501.551,"text":"我的發言意見到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":12527.718,"end":12532.961,"text":"主席,非常謝謝今天所出席的包括各位學者、專家、公民團體"},{"start":12554.91,"end":12580.8,"text":"還有很多委員的一些建議那我想在今天的建議的內容的部分當然除了原住民的不在籍投票還有投票因應以何種方式的處理那另外也有包括對於保障原住民的參政權還有就是就原民的委員的缺額會如何來做補選或者是地補那甚至還有包括剛剛也有談到就是"},{"start":12582.14,"end":12583.381,"text":"原住民是否可以參與一般選舉的議題?"},{"start":12603.746,"end":12604.066,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":12633.997,"end":12636.84,"text":"首先謝謝各位委員對於原住民有關參政的相關提案"},{"start":12652.438,"end":12677.61,"text":"那剛剛提到不在籍投票這個部分大家討論很多那因為原住民剛剛也有學者提到今年的五月遷居到都會應就學就業醫療等這樣的遷居都會區的人口已經超過五成那另外為了要提高他的投票率有關不在籍的投票這個部分的討論非常多而且有各種的方式"},{"start":12678.055,"end":12706.545,"text":"也有它的優點缺點那我們也知道內政部曾經在102年還有105年曾經提出總統副總統選舉罷免以及公民投票法等修正的草案有多規定規劃以全國為投票的行使範圍而且選票也就一種選務作業也就最單純那以確保政策成功的實施所以原住民的選舉政府總統還有立法委員的部分也是以全國為投票的行使範圍"},{"start":12707.572,"end":12731.863,"text":"選票為比較單一所以在整個政治信任度跟選務作業如果可行性的前提下本會也支持先行辦理原住民投票以不在籍投票的方式來辦理另外也提到所謂的另外特別提到原住民立委席次缺額應採取補選制度或者替補的部分有關這個部分"},{"start":12736.772,"end":12758.136,"text":"大院的法治局在100年3月也做過研究報告就基於民主的正當性以及改革不宜過大的兩項考量的因素也建議刪除原住民立法委員選舉區域缺額補選門檻的限制使原住民的立委跟一般區域立委的補選能夠一致來進行補選這樣一個議案那這個部分"},{"start":12762.416,"end":12762.516,"text":"主席"},{"start":12780.632,"end":12795.516,"text":"我們各與會的學者專家我們機關的所有的與會的代表在座的所有的媒體女士先生大家好中選會在這邊報告也非常感謝今天聆聽到非常多學者專家我們機關代表非常精闢的相關的一個論點"},{"start":12801.53,"end":12806.793,"text":"那有關這個選罷法的一個今天的這個將相關修法的一個精進的公聽會那就選務機關來說我們一切就是依我們相關選罷法的規定來辦理各項的選務的籌辦的工作那有關保障我們原住民的秘密投票的這一個區塊這幾年來我們始終一直在持續的努力希望把這個原住民能夠有一人的"},{"start":12830.708,"end":12834.189,"text":"這個選舉人的投票所來做合併希望能夠保障這樣的一個秘密投票未來我們也會持續跟原民會這邊來加強各地原住民這個服務的人員來達到徵詢這個選舉人的意願然後增加這樣的一個整併然後保障了我們原住民的秘密投票以上補充 謝謝"},{"start":12864.843,"end":12866.086,"text":"法務部法制司"},{"start":12877.945,"end":12891.994,"text":"主席 各位委員 與會的各位先進 各機關的代表就今天所討論的各項議題 裡面有牽涉到選舉罷免法的相關條文適用的部分我們尊重我們選政機關 主管機關跟選務主管機關的一個選擇的說明跟判斷"},{"start":12896.196,"end":12896.497,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":12916.515,"end":12938.736,"text":"至於就不在己投票的實施的方式﹖國內外各種方式各有其利弊﹖沒有哪一種方式是不需要成本的﹖不過因為在現場的框架秩序底下這些都是可以討論的﹖也牽涉到主管機關的職權﹖跟大院在立法政策上的選擇﹖我們也源於尊重﹖其他就引用我們的書面報告以上"},{"start":12942.729,"end":12965.015,"text":"謝謝感謝各位專家學者提供的寶貴的意見所有出列席人員的發言跟提供的書面資料除刊登公報外我們會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及所有出列席人員參考再次感謝各位的參與那今天有為各位準備便當我們今天的這個公聽會到這邊結束謝謝現在散會"},{"start":12984.559,"end":12987.841,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13015.238,"end":13015.339,"text":"公職人員選舉"}]}},{"id":"16057","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16057","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373dae5f17226264b1aaad9f551ce5fa921f4f242ceca957783999075d7beb762f925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-03","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-03T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T13:01:00+08:00","duration":16245,"影片長度":"04:30:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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多優秀的古蹟修復人員為了讓更多"},{"start":2216.781,"end":2234.148,"text":"新的世代投入台灣文化資產我們將持續透過傳統技術與現代科技的整合讓文化資產的修復保存以及活化運用走向產業化讓投入的人才更具有榮耀感"},{"start":2235.953,"end":2265.302,"text":"最後在教育方面．我們會和教育部、勞動部合作．透過學校的教育、在職的進修．強化產學供需的媒合．提升文資修復的品質．打造出屬於臺灣的文化資產的產業．讓我們的文化資產走向永續發展．懇請各位委員持續鼎力支持．並給予我們指教謝謝大家"},{"start":2273.01,"end":2285.157,"text":"謝謝,謝謝李部長的口頭報告那報告我們現在進行詢答那每位出席委員質詢8分鐘,必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘,發言人登記的截止時間為10點30分"},{"start":2293.342,"end":2311.84,"text":"那委員如有臨時提案．我們請於10點30分以前提出．並於本會委員．吳春成委員質詢結束後即進行處理．處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場．原力不予處理首先我們就請發言登記第一位．洪孟楷委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":2324.36,"end":2327.903,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請李部長好,有請李部長部長好,我們先請教一下上禮拜才剛落幕的金曲獎當然金曲獎大家也都非常關心因為三金其實也是我們的年度盛事但是在這次金曲獎裡面反而大家會覺得是說有一些"},{"start":2352.841,"end":2354.783,"text":"整體來講我們那個已經跟台視當時轉播的是台視公司我們跟他問整個過程他們也對外"},{"start":2379.741,"end":2400.193,"text":"公布了幾個幾個重要的關鍵就是其實是硬體的硬體的問題就整個技術問題主要是麥克風的設備但是故障但之前沒有彩排嗎相信也都有啊都有可是我覺得現場的那個狀況應該是他們的人員不足然後應付不夠反應不夠快所以發現電池"},{"start":2402.034,"end":2421.825,"text":"不良的時候馬上換新的麥克風可是旁邊那個場控人員又報錯了麥克風的號碼我想在現場這種狀況是非常凌亂的所以未來我們會改善做法包括慎選我們的硬體跟協力廠商確實掌握這個麥克風設備狀況增加一些無線訊號監控跟技術人員條度跟作業的SOP"},{"start":2428.669,"end":2437.95,"text":"看起來都是技術性層面問題那未來譬如說像這樣子的一個招包相關的承辦廠商是不是也應該要把它列為考核的項目"},{"start":2442.996,"end":2460.5,"text":"報告委員關於政策的整個部分我們有跟台視做過檢討那我們是一定會依照契約來做究責然後跟包括扣款那我們也會依照契約的相關規定然後做未來後續典禮以後成辦的相關的檢討跟參考好來那再請教部長"},{"start":2461.699,"end":2485.299,"text":"部長現在有看到是說居然說得獎者上台致詞的部分也有說被這個粉磚給消失那你當然也有受到這個媒體的一個詢問其實本期還是強調重要的影視頒獎典禮得獎者上台致詞就屬於得獎者的我們每一個人都應該要尊重因為榮耀時刻要說什麼就是言論自由嘛"},{"start":2485.899,"end":2514.625,"text":"那尤其關心國際大事這也是一個高尚人道的一個關懷但是為什麼會在這個情況下還是會讓大家去有一些這種互相的一個討論那甚至本席也看到好像我們現在已經就變成是說有點高度對立居然還講到是說我們有高傑這個藝人說實在高傑這個藝人也算是我們台灣資深的藝人他講一句說晚上好也被網友酸爆"},{"start":2515.711,"end":2530.356,"text":"那部長 上一次本席也才這邊才質詢您請教是說如果說用孤寂一詞會不會覺得是不是用大陸用語你那時候講說文化是包容的所以針對這樣子文化部辦這樣子的一個獎項然後網友這樣討論您自己怎麼看"},{"start":2531.069,"end":2547.462,"text":"好 我覺得我沒有想到這件事情會鬧那麼大的原因是其實每一次的頒獎過去也有完全不會把那個得獎人的得獎得獎者即時打出來不管得獎者 不管頒獎者他們的言論是不是應該都要尊重"},{"start":2547.822,"end":2571.078,"text":"要尊重所以我們這次的方式為什麼出差錯就是因為現場的速度很快那負責打這個打字的小編大概打到50個字到100個字就馬上上傳因為馬上進到下一個節目所以第一他絕對是無心之過因為他他就跟著打字跟著打字打到差不多50個字到100字之後就上傳那帕奈最後講這個天安門事件"},{"start":2572.387,"end":2589.528,"text":"這件事情用現在來思考他絕對不會敏感那個小編大概從來沒有覺得這件事情那麼重要就直接跳過去下一個節目所以當我們發現不對的時候他已經晚上傳了那我也不曉得這件事情怎麼會被大家想成是自我審查因為"},{"start":2590.769,"end":2591.25,"text":"其實本席要說"},{"start":2620.413,"end":2641.572,"text":"三金的這個獎項都是高度大眾視但是不管是得獎者不管是頒獎者他們的言論都應該接受尊重所以不管是說巴奈的一個發言或是高潔的發言本席都認為是說不應該有任何人去覺得是說你的政治意識形態然後加注在他們身上我想這是應該互相尊重的部分部長你可以同意吧"},{"start":2641.832,"end":2669.037,"text":"我在現場我覺得有的時候很奇怪這個社會很怪現場有幾位立委也跟我們一起在現場看那個表演其實我每次聽到那個有原住民的歌有客家語言的歌有華語的歌然後有台語的歌大家混在一起比過去那個多元而且歌手變多我跟你講我當場的感覺我非常感動那現場聽的觀眾也非常的嗨可是最後會"},{"start":2670.878,"end":2695.579,"text":"會討論的東西是我沒有想像到的說是某個言論怎樣怎樣我真的憑良心講在我的經驗中不曾有過好很好那言論的部分是一回事那一樣上禮拜有發生另外一個事件就是說有傳出有平面媒體報導是說有中國官媒記者介入台灣的政論節目那陸委會居然講是說協同文化部來查米那請教一個禮拜過去了文化部有沒有去查米這個我們有繼續玩下"},{"start":2698.161,"end":2705.968,"text":"現在有瞭解現在的狀況嗎?平面媒體講的是哪一家電視台?跟委員報告我們現在是依照我們的規定的程序進行行政調查所以我們兩個對象需要調查第一個就是邀請單位那邀請單位是聯合報那第二個就是這個當事的單位就是新華社那因為新華社還有兩位記者還在台灣所以我們也進行了約訪"},{"start":2725.024,"end":2727.806,"text":"這個禮拜以前會對對外有一個公開說明今天禮拜三了所以明天或後天是不是這個禮拜以內"},{"start":2751.786,"end":2766.599,"text":"一個禮拜以內一個禮拜以內但是已經過去一個禮拜啦上禮拜發生的事情到現在那本席只想確認平面媒體報導有講是說真的因為這種事情如果說發生任何人身上我們都沒有辦法接受"},{"start":2767.119,"end":2785.873,"text":"怎麼會有外國的人可以到我們台灣的新聞電視台然後去看說哪一個政論節目那被影射的政論節目有沒有看到上禮拜他也大動作聲明覺得是說根本不是啊只需烏有啊根本沒有這種事啊那所以說我們行政機關調查到底有沒有確認有沒有電視台"},{"start":2787.045,"end":2810.494,"text":"有沒有這個情況目前為止我們還在確認當中那也要跟委員說明所以你們會找那個電視台來詢問嗎我們要先從當事人開始因為我們當事人是指誰是指邀請的單位跟住台的單位住台的單位就新華社新華社那新華社他們邀請你們詢問了沒"},{"start":2812.059,"end":2825.162,"text":"已經約訪了那他們有承認這個事情嗎還沒說因為一個禮拜嘛所以約他然後跟他約時間說什麼時候可以來已經約了但他還沒有來還沒來對對對有在進行中那跟委員說因為我們畢竟行政調查權並不是司法權啦也不是自信的法務的權利部長"},{"start":2837.429,"end":2865.207,"text":"文化部其實沒有...你剛剛答詢喔本席也給你很多時間來回答那一樣就是說你講到說現在的台灣像我們中華民國我們法治社會我們沒有辦法想像說有人會做這個言語調查思想調查那一樣的道理你覺得這樣的一個狀況因為上禮拜平面媒體他指正立立啊大動作但是我們真的去看裡面有寫哪一家電視台嗎沒有他就寫沒有寫哪一家電視台只有影社"},{"start":2866.175,"end":2888.542,"text":"那有寫說是什麼節目嗎?沒有但就變成是說人人自為阿好像被潑到髒水的被影射到的然後大家就在以兒傳兒然後網路上鋪天蓋地在配合側翼來去帶風向哇 那個電視台好像就被帶風向了本期沒有要問哪一家電視台講話但本期很沒有辦法接受就是用這種帶風向式的以兒傳兒的故意抹紅的"},{"start":2890.407,"end":2909.698,"text":"那一樣的道理啊我剛剛問了如果說我們行政調查有屬實因為陸委會要跟文化部持續查明嘛有屬實把他給抓出來該犯什麼法令國安法還是什麼法把他揪出來但沒有屬實是不是也應該還相關人的一個公道"},{"start":2910.498,"end":2913.959,"text":"文化部的確是負責發記者證如果他的行為違反了我們發證的條件我們可以把它取消我們的功能是這樣子"},{"start":2935.97,"end":2939.513,"text":"昨天卓院長在另外一個立法院的那個會議中他也被問到這一題"},{"start":2958.587,"end":2980.088,"text":"部長最後本席今天也看到這個新聞啊臺南我想朝偉是臺南人啊大家很關注啊真善美戲院2018年其實他才剛重新開幕但是到現在2024年不過6年的時間他又在熄燈了那部長您之前上任的時候外界給您一個評語啊叫做真正懂電影的部長"},{"start":2981.489,"end":2994.942,"text":"所以您既然是一個真正懂電影部長看到這樣子國內電影院的狀況不管是現在這個市場越來越萎縮不管是國片的一個市場您有什麼樣的一個作為能夠更積極的來協助"},{"start":2996.781,"end":3020,"text":"是的 委員您問得很好 這也是我最憂心的部分因為整體的電影市場不是因為國片而是連戲片都開始跌那是因為整個消費方式大家很少願意走進戲院那整體來講已經發展出兩種東西一個是電影院的戲院電影院的電影一個是在Netflix這種平台上算流平台的電影所以我們作為一個"},{"start":3021.909,"end":3022.45,"text":"主席"},{"start":3039.005,"end":3062.236,"text":"國發會再重新開會希望多用第二個100億另外我們的黑曹計畫也跟行政院要了一個專門針對臺灣的文化內容包括科技包括電影包括電視還有文學等等也變成100億用4年來用所以作為一個文化部長我唯一能做就是我們預助更多的資源協助他們能夠把這個"},{"start":3063.317,"end":3063.757,"text":"文化部部長"},{"start":3081.229,"end":3106.535,"text":"我答應每部電影都去看而且我們也答應馬上就要宣布一個文化幣鼓勵大家看國片的一個政策我明天就要宣布了就是鼓勵大家用文化幣去看國片而且指定就是國片而且那個給的點數非常高就是我做我全力可以做的事情而且我也自己會每部電影去看我覺得有的時候是一個氣氛就是自己的電影自己看那這一點當然是我會"},{"start":3107.535,"end":3133.135,"text":"就我所有可能去協助的部長我覺得這是一個大問題本期只是提出一個點因為過去到現在我也都在這邊很關心我們的不管是影視產業或是國片的相關的發展但我只提醒兩個點第一過去有人感嘆說前幾任部長對於文化的重視其實追根究柢到最後都只剩傻錢業界雖然高興但是影視文化難以紮根這個是媒體報導對於過去幾任部長的一個講法"},{"start":3137.498,"end":3157.571,"text":"所以剛剛雖然聽到你有講說有兩個計畫但是本期還是要強調除了這個資源投入以外更重要的是要做什麼那還有第二個部分商業影片戲劇當然他們有他們各自的發展譬如說引進更新的技術環繞音響IMAX或是那個"},{"start":3159.273,"end":3187.493,"text":"相關4DX等等的讓很多追求這些影視娛樂的可以去做但是另外一個部分對於這種真善美戲院他們的定位可能是文化藝術相關片型他們可能缺的不只是資源而是更重要是怎麼樣能夠跟國際上不同的電影來結合更方便的引路我覺得這才是不同特色影戲院應該要求的生存好不好我請部長"},{"start":3188.314,"end":3194.698,"text":"後續我們還會再繼續針對這個議題來做討論本次也會跟您更深入的討論好不好謝謝謝謝謝謝洪夢凱委員謝謝替我們台南政善美戲院幾張熄燈發聲謝謝那我們先來確認議事錄議事錄有無錯誤跟遺漏之處沒有好那議事錄確定我們接下來請柯之恩召委"},{"start":3217.056,"end":3220.738,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我們請李遠部長。好,有請部長。特緣,你好。你好,我想我持續剛剛的問題,特別是三經。為什麼對這問題特別關切?因為我35年前也曾經是金鐘獎的教育文化的主持人,好不好?不過知道這件事情,大概年紀都不小了,好不好?那已經是非常久的事情了。"},{"start":3242.867,"end":3268.655,"text":"那我還是你小時候OK好那我其實你剛剛已經對宏孟凱的委員的問題已經做了一些我必須要說因為這520你才上任所以金曲獎的承辦幾乎是在你上任之前就已經確定了嘛所以說呢很多的小編我也相信對於你過去的一貫的一個立場對於自由的這樣的一個定義應該是小編在這個過程裡面應該輸了小的瑕疵我比較在乎的是"},{"start":3269.595,"end":3297.986,"text":"說實在的這個三金過去可以說是華人圈的一個盛事所以你剛剛特別提到的非常的多元但是呢對於整個影響力跟我那個年代比起來其實是下降的這點部長你應該是同意吧你當初在金馬獎為李安為這個徐發行人還有等等這些的風功其實現在已經是風光不再這是我們必須要接受的事實我比較關切的是接下來金鐘獎特別是你非常熟悉的金馬獎你有信心辦好嗎"},{"start":3298.746,"end":3304.25,"text":"臺灣的影視發展,比如金鐘獎臺灣的劇集這幾年非常精彩我們接受的除了電視之外也接受在OTT上的節目金馬獎的部分你覺得你有信心嗎?金馬獎我也很有信心"},{"start":3322.402,"end":3327.726,"text":"長期以來金馬獎那個單位經過了李安丹主席張愛佳到現在李平平安丹主席他們已經有能力對待募款的產值好 我就是特別提醒因為目前如果說金曲獎因為一些技術問題還有一些政治上面的問題有一些的紛擾"},{"start":3337.714,"end":3350.207,"text":"你自己也個人受了非常多的一個委屈我希望在這個所謂的未來的二斤當中可以繼續教訓因為今天主席排的是有關於這個古跡的部分我想中正紀念堂也絕對是我們國定的一個古跡那這個顧立雄已經宣布了這個已經跟文化部協調好要把這個三軍移到我們自由廣場來細節是由文化部來拍板這是事實嗎"},{"start":3362.401,"end":3377.328,"text":"因為我們臺灣的有關這個重症經驗堂它是個非常敏感的問題我了解 所以說這是部長你的決定嗎還是國防部的決定我只問這個問題簡單說我們其實誰都不能決定因為我們有一個那個行政院有一個這個所以是行政院決定的重症經驗堂這個轉型正義的匯報"},{"start":3380.37,"end":3384.073,"text":"所以是他們決定的所以說把這個所謂的儀隊移出去到廣場部長我是為什麼要特別我沒有那麼多政治思考我只覺得這些儀隊你要知道他們曾經在這個曾經有過這個昏倒的記錄你在室內沒有辦法你把他移到廣場這個這麼高溫之下面這是一個非常嚴重的一個問題所以你剛剛說不是你也不是顧立松決定的是你更上層的那個委員會所決定的是不是"},{"start":3407.574,"end":3408.134,"text":"請問這句話還算數嗎?徹底一對是全民共識嗎?"},{"start":3439.135,"end":3461.593,"text":"謝謝你給我這個機會回答我在5月22回答的東西跟現在想法完全一樣因為全世界經過威權統治的法西斯統治的國家非常多他們如何處理那個很敏感的那個紀念碑或者是一個建築物那個東西如果處理得不好的話是繼續撕裂族群所以我會"},{"start":3464.255,"end":3480.227,"text":"非常小心翼翼的處理不是部長你的重點你或許你認為一樣可是我們聽起來重點不一樣因為每個人都會選擇性的去理解選擇性的去暴露然後會選擇性的去接受你上次回答我說你覺得民眾休閒是比較重要的我當時要跟你比較肯定而且呢你那時候好特別提到說這個以人道的立場來說三金魚隊不是被大家在政權當中轉來轉去這是你當初的一個立場"},{"start":3492.016,"end":3501.098,"text":"這個立場其實跟你現在所提到的大家對於這個威權制度各方面部分其實有很大的改變的一個月還是有很大的改變的"},{"start":3501.735,"end":3516.504,"text":"沒有 如果你願意給我多一點時間的話我沒有那麼多時間給你我只覺得你是有一些而且我只要提醒你部長我比較在乎的跟你前次所回應的比較知道這是人民休息的一個地方而且你可能不知道中山盡量遊客過去曾經比故宮還要多曾經是320萬在這個所謂疫情之前兩岸觀光還交流的時候還曾經達到六七百萬曾經算掉709萬的這樣的人次"},{"start":3528.692,"end":3556.111,"text":"大家在去那個地方的時候呢就是看到儀隊但是對於這個蔣介石的功過大家自有一些的一個解讀不會因為你參觀了一下然後呢就對於這樣的一個偉人開始是崇拜或是摧毀基本上面現在目前自由開放訊息太多所以我只能說在你任內當中你過去的一般的一個立場跟你現在所講的部分我個人覺得還是有一些落差我只問一個你覺得你在任內當中你要對中共進行的轉型"},{"start":3557.512,"end":3583.881,"text":"你要發揮什麼樣的一個角色我覺得有三個面向如果你願意讓我講一點一分鐘因為等一下還有因為我覺得第一個我覺得我們最近有設計到一個讓全台灣年輕人來設計中央紀念堂我覺得歷史是要把它翻過去舊的歷史要翻過去可是不能遺忘翻過去之後大家重新面對新的時代所以我最近我會巡迴全台灣展覽所有年輕人對中央紀念堂想像的那個建築物那第二個"},{"start":3586.229,"end":3601.332,"text":"中正經常要如何解決一個去威懸跟去個人崇拜有幾個方式一個就是我們從周邊的剛剛講到民眾休閒那個環境的改造這是我第二個想法第三個至於我們的這個儀隊如何操"},{"start":3602.073,"end":3602.513,"text":"文化部長李遠列席"},{"start":3632.193,"end":3661.206,"text":"我想強化保全吧這一點我覺得的確要顧及到不同族群對同一件事情有不同的看法從過去歷史上看到這種有經過威權是 所以你的保全應該就跟國防部的這樣的保護就完全是沒有關係就對了對 作為一個政府態度應該是讓它不要衝突不要撕裂我剛才一直強調說我從近年來講的話到現在的話還是一樣的最重要一件事情就是我們要慎重處理過去的歷史不要遺忘它但是我們也不能夠"},{"start":3668.289,"end":3688.88,"text":"我完全同意這個部分只是你上次所講的重點所畫的一個重點跟你現在你把它講得更清楚但是我還是要懇請部長真的大家那時候一剛開始對你寄予厚望就是因為你一本初衷對很多事情你是還保有一個過去的一個想法我還是希望文化部長"},{"start":3689.52,"end":3708.269,"text":"就是以文化為基準點不要被政治給凌駕然後接下來跟一個比較政治的一個問題就像我們剛剛說的這個清華社你剛剛已經特別提到是聯合報來做一些邀請的那目前大陸駐台大概有6家媒體7名的記者部長就你所理解的部分來說過去清華社到台灣來有或者是從過去跟大陸的媒體到這邊來估計到現在有多少是違規的比例是多少"},{"start":3717.816,"end":3726.166,"text":"有多少是違規的?跟委員報告新華社的部分並沒有其他的違規情形目前為止並沒有其他違規的一個狀況出現大陸入台那大陸其他大陸駐台的記者嗎?有沒有這樣子的一個記錄?"},{"start":3734.155,"end":3739.137,"text":"大陸的駐台機車如果在台灣有識別上的需求像是要租攝影棚或是SNG車在文化部的規定當中是可不可以?"},{"start":3754.862,"end":3780.68,"text":"其實可以只是看狀況因為他進來的目的是進行注點的採訪那是依據這個採訪的需求而衍生的如果沒有牽涉到其他的情形就是看他的實際的狀況來做所以攝影棚看你的實際狀況當然你有前提設在那個地方嘛所以攝影棚的租借或SNG車在目前來說是在法規上面是OK的如果他符合他的在台的活動目的是OK我只是說目前為止很多人想了解台灣的一些的訊息透過這樣的傳輸的管道"},{"start":3782.461,"end":3811.205,"text":"不要把每個人都當匪諜好不好我真的覺得我們台灣現在已經處處都是匪諜又回到我35年前的時代了不只喔更早以前的時代了因為我們要對台灣的民主要有相當的信心不要把一些事情都把它擴大解讀影射是最傷害的好 謝謝最後我要問一下有關於大家非常關切的這個國定古籍龍山寺鹿港龍山寺的彩繪工程到底什麼時候會再來一次的把它復原這是鹿港人非常在乎的"},{"start":3811.706,"end":3814.176,"text":"這個我要請文資局局長跟你解釋一下"},{"start":3815.4,"end":3839.169,"text":"委員陸港龍山市的彩繪我們在4月份做終止契約的這個決定那現在在進行那個結算的工作結算之後我們會再...局長既然你都上來了我還是要讓部長瞭解一下我真的不想發生什麼事情我們這個局長任國美副館長的時候典藏庫房是解約我們要再次的發保文件會第二處長的時候又是解約再發保"},{"start":3841.99,"end":3842.95,"text":"傳譯中心主任、高雄中山堂說服工程解約再發報"},{"start":3857.149,"end":3876.124,"text":"為什麼伊聯商一直在粗暴?為什麼?到底是什麼樣的問題?我覺得台灣的文資修復是一個非常復雜的問題中央給錢然後地方來修復齁這個我們還在真的還在學習中因為台灣有文字概念是很後面的事情我了解可是局長這次發生在你任內你不需要做一些解釋"},{"start":3876.724,"end":3878.605,"text":"委員 龍山市這個案子主要是團隊那之前的案子有沒有再重復發生"},{"start":3903.218,"end":3914.899,"text":"跟這每個案例都不一樣每個案例都不一樣但是結果都一樣就叫做解約再發報我想都是按照我們的合約的規定如果不解約那我覺得那是失職"},{"start":3916.64,"end":3922.105,"text":"這麼多次的狀況部長我今天特別提出來條列這個部分或許你剛上任但是我覺得你一直強調從過去歷史當中學到教訓然後往前走不能回顧過去起碼可以往前看這麼多的例子擺在這個地方特別是鹿港崙山市是承載的非常多鹿港人對於文化的上面的一個精神的一個寄託現在已經延宕兩年了同樣的問題還是在存在請問什麼時候可以讓這個彩排工程"},{"start":3946.024,"end":3954.109,"text":"正式的完工給我們一個數字局長或部長這個我想程序還是繼續照走了什麼時候可能我們要再再什麼時候可以告訴我一個答案我一個禮拜之內一個禮拜告訴我好不好還有所發生的一個問題等等之類請給請告訴本席到底問題真正所在還有過去的這些問題當中我們如何從過去的教訓當中得到一個學習的經驗我覺得這才是最重要的好 謝謝"},{"start":3977.304,"end":3977.764,"text":"李遠列席"},{"start":4000.994,"end":4003.095,"text":"我必須跟你承認我第一次參加金曲獎"},{"start":4025.771,"end":4041.347,"text":"所以這一次的進取獎在你的心目中成功嗎打了幾分我給他80分但是因為發生這些事情我給他扣5分75分這一次這個進取獎相關的出包剛才您的回答是說有硬體的問題有設備的問題有小編的問題那我整個看起來"},{"start":4046.092,"end":4071.871,"text":"其實這些出的包其實都是非常低級的錯誤都是不應該出的包那看起來是一個小地方但影響都甚巨所以才會造成您剛剛所說的在今天典禮的現場您看到所有多元文化的表演你覺得非常的感動但沒有想到落幕以後是這麼多的沸沸揚揚就是這些小地方我們沒有注意的時候帶來的就是巨大的一個影響跟嚴重的結果那您知道這是哪一個單位承辦的嗎"},{"start":4073.08,"end":4078.826,"text":"臺灣電視公司臺視好這是他第幾次成辦第幾次啊我問一下這幾年我們經過公開招標之後這幾年都是臺視成辦的第幾次成辦應該是從25屆到現在都是臺視成辦所以第幾次成辦好局長應該是第11年"},{"start":4097.692,"end":4099.914,"text":"所以我只問一下臺市連續幾年來承辦?他總共辦過幾次了?"},{"start":4114.97,"end":4123.604,"text":"其實他是在21屆到23屆你告訴我他總共辦過幾次幾次嗎對 台市14次14次所以台市辦金曲獎其實有高達14次部長"},{"start":4129.414,"end":4149.46,"text":"部長 這個問題就嚴重囉其實他出包不是今年才出包因為您是今年可能才接了部長這個位置您有在現場去看他往年就出過很多次包了去年不知道您記不記得就在第34屆的金曲獎因為頒獎卡片他排版不佳就主持人唸錯有沒有那還造成了大家很多的尷尬"},{"start":4150.12,"end":4172.993,"text":"那甚至於這可能還有一些就是大家是心理上的不舒服還有一些面子理直的問題其實是一份嚴重的錯誤那如果說還是從過去到現在第一個他經驗豐富還屢屢出錯那屢屢出錯又屢屢得標這是為什麼那第二個去年已經出錯今年還是繼續再犯那請問一下他是用什麼樣的方式我們去圍給他來承辦這個活動我想請教部長"},{"start":4178.382,"end":4178.702,"text":"政府採購法公開"},{"start":4196.613,"end":4196.893,"text":"市長徐市長徐市長"},{"start":4220.115,"end":4238.566,"text":"跟委員報告 我們都是用公開招標的方式來用什麼樣的標 最低標 最有力標 哪一種標我們是用那個 準用最有力標最有力標 好 最有力標就是評選嘛那何以十幾年來 他有經驗 然後還出錯出錯以後又再得標 得標以後再出錯 出錯又再得標可以告訴我為什麼嗎"},{"start":4239.646,"end":4253.775,"text":"其實這幾年都只有台式一家公司來投標那因為我們這案子我跟委員簡單報告因為我們整個金曲獎不是只有頒獎典禮我們要整個案子裡頭是從25號開始我們有個金曲獎這我理解來部長所以他的工作項目比較繁雜一點部長有一個問題喔剛才呢回答說因為只有一家來所以這麼多年下來我們都只有一家來這中間的問題其實不小第一個為什麼只有一家來什麼原因"},{"start":4269.437,"end":4294.228,"text":"有沒有去理解過 了解過那這個只有一家來有沒有一些人謀不當在裡面或者是有沒有一些疏忽在裡面或者是我們這個整個典禮活動預算經費不夠高沒有人要來您總要找出問題來嘛您不能老是一直給台式做然後呢平行形式的這樣給他做然後不斷去出錯最後是什麼最後就是部長您的感動到後來變成要去承接面對這些沸沸揚揚啊"},{"start":4296.161,"end":4314.241,"text":"副部長我們要怎麼去解決這樣的問題我會整體檢討一下因為據我個人了解他這個費用真的是不高所以來飆的非常少因為飆的時候他會虧那台視是台灣第一家電視公司後來民營化之後他們很想要有那個形象所以他其實是"},{"start":4315.683,"end":4342.339,"text":"很想要有形象現在這樣形象好嗎?所以我想部長這件事情我們還是真的要做出一個懲處那如果說您都知道說假設是因為預算經費太低沒有人要來那你就要去思考怎麼樣辦好一個典禮在足夠的經費之下讓更有能力的人來去承接那如果已經是不斷在犯錯不斷在出包造成這個典禮去蒙羞那甚至於引起這樣沸沸揚揚你就要去思考"},{"start":4342.679,"end":4342.879,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4361.583,"end":4364.204,"text":"文資保存、修復最需要人才但現在人才缺乏、人才斷層非常嚴重從教育面上來看大家都往AI方向走"},{"start":4382.009,"end":4384.372,"text":"部長,您知不知道現在文化部的文化資產人才庫裡面有多少人?"},{"start":4402.642,"end":4430.019,"text":"細節我不清楚,但是我們最近才開過一個會,您剛剛講的問題是非常嚴重所以您不知道有多少人是嗎?那我告訴部長,我們現在的文資登錄的總數是3237人包括保存者、傳統匠師、醫生、古蹟修復、工程工地、負責人等但是部長,這個資料是文化部的資料庫但是我們有另外一個網站,這個網站是要提供給需要文資人才找尋的資料網站,您知道有這個網站嗎?"},{"start":4431.22,"end":4431.42,"text":"李遠列席"},{"start":4452.313,"end":4468.389,"text":"而且這個2617個人這個網站當中啊這個人才庫竟然還有這個登錄已經過世的人啊所以我不理解第一個為什麼會有數字的落差第二個為什麼有過世的人我們還把他登錄在上面這是因為網站屬於更新還是美化數字"},{"start":4476.029,"end":4487.099,"text":"這兩個數字可能我們在認定上面定義上面有一點落差就像剛才講到有的過世了但是我們要遵從它所以我們還是把它保留在上頭"},{"start":4487.719,"end":4511.781,"text":"你說為什麼把他保留在上面?就是因為對他的尊崇啦,因為這是很好看的部長,我想這個回答你也聽到了來部長,我們在這個網站上面叫做人才庫人才庫是要供給有需要的人來這個人才庫來找人才,您同意我的說法嗎?我同意那我們把過世人放在這上面,那找人才的人來這個網站上面看有意義嗎?我想喔"},{"start":4513.622,"end":4525.454,"text":"當時其實我們在調資料的時候文字局的答覆其實本席非常地不滿意他說這個是文字局的答覆他說文化部依照《文化資產法》第89條91條的登錄認定這個無形文化資產的這個保存者他這個過世之後基於剛回答的"},{"start":4533.482,"end":4550.763,"text":"尊重其殊榮：所以保留於國家文化資產的網站人才庫啊結果呢 部長 您會不會去看一下89條 91條 完全沒有提到這個部分你們建文化部文資局給資料怎麼可以亂講亂答啊非常不尊重自己 更不尊重委員啊"},{"start":4551.684,"end":4578.78,"text":"對不對?你對得起自己的專業嗎?亂講易通89條、91條哪有就這個來講好!本行上去找在93條可能還有一條比較相關的喔他是說這個93條規定保存者因為死亡變更解散或其他特殊理由無法執行前條之無形文化資產保存維護計畫主管機關得廢止該保存者之認定所以這個是說文化部是可以來廢止的喔那我們必須要講"},{"start":4579.82,"end":4604.235,"text":"這個人才庫是要給有需要的人去找人才的但是我們對於剛剛所說的這個文資人才的殊榮的尊重我們要紀念他我們可以比如說在一些網站啦、史冊啦或者什麼樣的形式啊我們特別去紀念他讓大家想了解想看的那我們可以在這個地方來看所以不應該啊為了去美化這個數字前後數字都不攏給我們的法條啊這個也不對這樣有對嗎部長"},{"start":4607.488,"end":4629.534,"text":"當然是不對,我想說非常感謝萬委員今天講這些細節,其實我一直覺得我們的文資保存要改變的地方還是蠻多,因為我自己有開過會,發現它也蠻多很嚴重的地方,包括為了我們能不能在制度面上鼓勵年輕人加入我們的修復,因為我們對於文資保存的工作給它一種榮耀感,"},{"start":4630.474,"end":4649.84,"text":"好 部長剛才說希望年輕人加入 我們就要講嘛你看喔 你現在真的非常缺人喔如果按照剛才你那個資料庫裡面說2617人扣掉已經過世寫在上面還有一些身份重疊的在裡面恐怕連2500都不到啦 本席認為啦那但是我們現在總共登錄的這個文化資產保存有6380件啦那2500人不到"},{"start":4653.681,"end":4654.141,"text":"這個學院不曉得部長您知不知道"},{"start":4684.093,"end":4708.373,"text":"這個學院我們透過這個計畫這個經費的補助的方式來補助那說號稱啊104年到112年有一萬多人次去上課但是呢部長上完課以後看起來很澎湃那上完課以後我們有沒有給他做認證再來培育出來的這個學員我們有沒有列入文資人才庫的數量是多少您知道嗎"},{"start":4709.811,"end":4731.23,"text":"對我真的搞不清楚我告訴您好不好這個數字啊您要不要自己說有多少人這個文資學院的人才他的性質跟我們你只要告訴我從這個文資人才您剛剛說這個文資學院出來的人有多少我們把它列入文資人才庫裡面有多少沒有沒有好部長0啊0"},{"start":4735.051,"end":4739.507,"text":"是只有零也就是說我們有一萬多個人來上課上完課以後煙花一場"},{"start":4741.245,"end":4766.334,"text":"編劃一場所以部長這些問題您剛接觸到您也重視了我覺得非常欣慰因為我們要面對問題喔所以我們如果啊找不到年輕的學生然後我們要那麼缺文資人才結果我們自己做的文資學院經費也變下去了最後進到人才庫只有零喔那我們也沒有去做相關的追蹤所以部長我想今天因為時間也到了喔那我希望啦齁我們不要有一些喔不管是我們金學長也好"},{"start":4766.914,"end":4784.036,"text":"或者是我們在這個文資學院也好經費下去了那煙花一場過後我們留不下任何的東西我覺得這樣是不行的所以希望呢部長在人資的培育上面那能夠我們更嚴謹那才能夠跟得上我們現在需要文資人才的速度可以嗎"},{"start":4784.797,"end":4791.898,"text":"最後一句 文化部自己要重視好不好不要連那個數字都前後都不攏謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝你 謝謝謝謝 謝謝萬美玲委員好 部長請回接下來我們請羅廷維委員"},{"start":4822.234,"end":4824.456,"text":"臺灣的歷史建物網友總是會這麼認為之前很常都會發生離奇的火災部長有稍微了解一下這個部分嗎?"},{"start":4848.649,"end":4868.023,"text":"我知道 早期一直有這個問題好 那國內古蹟歷史建築物主要火災的原因分為四項用火不慎、人為縱火、施工不當以及電氣因素廣義的來說就是自然跟人為的因素那人為的因素部分我們就會推測說是不是當我們老舊建物準備被評定為古蹟的時候"},{"start":4868.763,"end":4897.205,"text":"就會受到文資法的保護周邊的建築物一併會受到影響連帶出現疑似人為縱火的案件出來也就是自然事件我們都知道108年4月巴黎聖母院發生火災以後起火的原因有兩說一個是電氣的故障一個是香煙的引燃那當然在這件事情出現以後文化部也很重視我們就成了就形成了一個有形文化資產防災守護方案目前還在辦理嗎"},{"start":4898.641,"end":4924.496,"text":"有具體的成效可不可以跟大家分享一下是不是請局長仔細報告一下這個有形化資產防災我們是跟相關部會像消防署還有那個警政署我們就這樣的方案我們定期做消防的演練還有聯繫的匯報大概都是會召開這樣子那對於所有各種可能的狀況包括我們現在已經協調各警局在各個文字點設置那個巡邏箱還有"},{"start":4927.498,"end":4953.783,"text":"還有我們加強就是所有人跟管理人怎麼樣做維護管理就是守護這些文化資產那近幾年確實有相對的減少失火的一個頻率我們有感受到但是聖母願知大火之後很快的在7月文資局和國家地震工程研究中心國家災害防救科技中心等相關單位建置了文化資產災害情資網於是我看了這個網站的內容"},{"start":4955.043,"end":4956.184,"text":"有掌握嗎?那為什麼沒有列入?沒有想到"},{"start":4972.844,"end":4991.839,"text":"我們可以來考慮把它納進去我舉最近的一個例子就是2023年屏東空訊中心大武營區的正氣樓就發生了人為縱火木造的屋頂木窗等燒毀面積約100坪但我在網站上從頭到尾都找不到相關的資料然後我把縣市的數據從屏東縣拉回到"},{"start":4992.219,"end":5008.368,"text":"不拘縣市．得到的也都是淹水、建物結構傾斜、裂縫等．人來沒有看到火災的部分．是防災中心勾結不到文化部的一個資訊．還是文化部根本從頭到尾都沒有將資訊列管．以至於無法提供相關資料給防災中心"},{"start":5010.365,"end":5025.151,"text":"委員剛才那個防災中心那個網站啊主要是以天然災害為主天然災害為主像地震啊颱風等等那我想如果人為的部分我可以考慮把它在另外再把它拉進去我個人認為人為的他也應該要列入讓大家能夠知道"},{"start":5026.755,"end":5047.611,"text":"可以認同嗎?我想當時公共政策網路參與平台民眾提出了建議希望能夠立法規定遭遇火災的文化資產及其用地100年不得做修復原狀以外的用途以杜絕有心人士藉由縱火進行炒地的事情部長您知道這件事情嗎?"},{"start":5050.357,"end":5069.834,"text":"網路所發起的這個活動知道文化部回應希望透過有形文化資產防災守護方案推動降低各為人為疏失還有災害的因應未來日益劇烈的一個氣候變遷的挑戰守護國家無可替代的一個重要文化資產用這樣子的一個方式來做一個回應"},{"start":5070.535,"end":5095.225,"text":"如果說自然災害和國家地震工程研究中心國家災害防救科技中心等單位要列管的話那文化部也應該要把火災的部分羅列進去部長您覺得呢應該是那而不是說今天你提報了一個有形文化資產的一個防護手一個方案但只做了半套部長能夠承諾本席盤點將相關的一個資料一併列入嗎"},{"start":5096.207,"end":5122.128,"text":"是沒問題接下來我想要跟部長再探討的是接下來我們有關心這個文化資產價值的一個評估問題有三個層次第一個層次是法律面我想文資保護法第15條公有建築物我們在這個部分簡單來跟大家分享就是公有建物公有土地的建築物在新建完50年後如果有要處分例如拆除都應該要進行文化資產的評估價值"},{"start":5123.809,"end":5149.249,"text":"但是去年呢我們7月文化部就遭到監察院的糾正全台灣2萬棟50年工有建築物只有353棟提送文化價值的一個評估這6年來拆掉的有兩成都是沒有辦理文化價值評估根本就是違法拆除被監察院認定這個有重大疏失那有要求確實的檢討部長您覺得這個嚴不嚴重我們是不是應該要做一個"},{"start":5153.632,"end":5154.693,"text":"50年公有建築物貸補償高達99%"},{"start":5181.932,"end":5205.537,"text":"所以我想這個文化資產我們不是只是法律面訂定而已我們實際的執行面的確看起來是有很大的一個差距我想這個部分我們是不是應該檢討一下部長您覺得呢是 因為它那個執行面真的是很困難因為它量那麼大的一個50年的建築在台灣來講非常多我覺得在鑑定上跟人力上可能相當不足所以這個要檢討"},{"start":5206.337,"end":5231.58,"text":"我想問執法第14條主管機關應定期普查程序的檢查列冊追蹤到底有沒有涵蓋到50年工有建築物卻兩次獲得不同的一個說法111年12月16日回復說法令上無規範112年2月15日又回復說包含在裡面各縣市根本無法追蹤那部長你可不可以給我一個確定的答案你覺得呢50年工有建築物到底是不是用第14條"},{"start":5234.466,"end":5252.047,"text":"要不要補查?定期檢查要多久一次?這14條跟15條其實兩個是不同性質的那個內容解釋是不一樣的那15條我先補充一下第15條完檢察院的糾正裡面最主要現在是縣市政府的各局處的橫向聯繫不夠我們已經是一個一個通韓各縣市"},{"start":5252.748,"end":5253.688,"text":"公有建築物是否使用第14條"},{"start":5278.319,"end":5280.162,"text":"我們現在普查跟定期檢查你們有訂定一個內部的規範嗎?"},{"start":5293.235,"end":5315.804,"text":"50年建築物要普查定期追蹤我們有沒有去訂定然後要求我們的下面的各縣市主管機關去處理我們有跟一些行政指導的一些規範都有去跟他們做溝通但是目前我們看到普查率還有高達99%因為剛才部長講的確是人力地方縣市政府的人力還有橫向溝通的確這方面是實質上是有一些困難"},{"start":5316.184,"end":5342.194,"text":"那我希望是不是未來有機會有這樣子的一個招募能力的一個計畫能夠來銜接這樣子的人力讓我們這50年的建築物趕緊來做一個普查有沒有這個計畫可以來產生我們的補助我們很多的補助案件裡面都包含了這一些相關的機制包括有一些像考古遺址的巡查、古蹟的巡查還有專案服務團隊這一方面都是一些補充人力的還有專業技術的一種做法"},{"start":5342.794,"end":5361.89,"text":"我們希望在這個各縣市能夠在文化部的一個督導下有一個執行層面的一個問題我想包括雲林縣人力辦理的一個統計南投縣嘉義縣表示他們根本沒有相關的數據也就是在拆除之前他們根本不清楚自己拆的到底是不是50年的一個建築物所以這就是橫向聯繫的一個問題我希望文化部能夠有所作為能夠來協助處理"},{"start":5366.994,"end":5390.956,"text":"我想執行面有這樣的一個狀況我們文化部應該要痛定思痛去想辦法協助處理那當然第三個我們應借盡國外建築物遺產價值評估的一個系統我希望文化部能夠做到我想文資法的施行細則指出啊處分前要通知主管機關進行文化的價值評估具體的做法就是邀請學者或審議委員辦理勘查做成一個結果記錄"},{"start":5392.697,"end":5418.337,"text":"那主管機關再來判定是否列冊追蹤登錄審查或其他的事故來列冊來做一個列管實施然而目前對於專家學者的定義專案一個內容以及他的職業倫理職務的執行細則都沒有明確的做一個規範比如說怎麼樣算是有價值以目前的股期指定及廢止的審查辦法為例現在寫的只要廣泛"},{"start":5420.163,"end":5444.262,"text":"範圍具高度的歷史、藝術及科學價值表現各時代營造技術的流派特色者具稀少性不易再現者這三條基準且符合其一之一舉例來說張化縣的大興鳳梨商市會社是典型的文資爭議事件部長您知道這個事件嗎"},{"start":5447.403,"end":5467.556,"text":"我想當時文資委員做現場的勘察的時候認定這個大興商市外觀形式簡潔臨街立面無繁複的一個裝飾常見於彰化市區的主要道路不具稀少性特殊性但文資團體認為大興鳳梨商市會社為彰化市"},{"start":5471.559,"end":5498.035,"text":"竟存聯動式現代風格折衷樣式的一個解無具有稀少珍貴藝術的價值同樣是稀少性主管機關跟文字團體的解讀完全相反無法就客觀來而引發了一個爭議我想這個部分我們是不是可以參考國外的建築價值評估系統例如加拿大建築他們有一個"},{"start":5499.178,"end":5515.017,"text":"建築史、歷史、環境、使用、相關的價值、真實性的價值五項指標來作為分級評分分為A、B、C也就是所謂的75到100分、50到74分相關的一個分組來做一個四個組別"},{"start":5519.502,"end":5519.522,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":5536.115,"end":5557.763,"text":"我想羅委員你剛才講這些東西,我想我們一定要痛聽思痛的來檢討,因為剛才你講的那幾個建,長來的專家委員他們每個人都不同的專業,所以他們評定方式是不一樣的,那這點我很謝謝你的建議,我們應該是參考一些更科學的一些制度跟方法,讓那個評定比較有根據。"},{"start":5558.763,"end":5578.798,"text":"好,謝謝部長正面的回應我想就是我剛剛說的接近國外的建築物遺產的一個價值評估系統希望更有效的去做這樣子的一個評估我們當然尊重不管是文史團體或者是學者去做的一個評估但是我們希望的是在這個過程當中能夠更謹慎小心的去做評估不要讓我們任何遺留"},{"start":5579.278,"end":5579.918,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員謝謝部長請回"},{"start":5608.874,"end":5624.292,"text":"我們接下來請葛如君委員謝謝主席 有請部長有請部長"},{"start":5630.172,"end":5659.292,"text":"各位委員你好部長好今天艷陽高照但是我們的文化在AI的世界裡頭卻可能見不得光我想先請教一下部長我們今天文化資產我相信應該是大家都同意對內具有教育跟歷史的意義對外則有提升台灣國際的知名度發展觀光的重要功能我想請教你假設國外的朋友想要到台灣進行文化的深度旅遊"},{"start":5660.292,"end":5660.953,"text":"請問我們台灣目前有多少國定古蹟"},{"start":5678.573,"end":5700.941,"text":"那以下我們找了這個華爾街日報比較各個評比比較熱門的幾個AI加上我們的台德我們讓他做了一些回覆那我們想請教一下部長當中何者的答覆比較是正確答案或者比較接近正確的答案部長要不要感受一下AI跟人類的差距有沒有哪一個是比較接近正確的"},{"start":5706.633,"end":5707.293,"text":"請舉出幾個台灣的國定古蹟"},{"start":5733.505,"end":5750.283,"text":"這是AI的答覆看看部長您覺得這幾組答案裡面有哪幾個AI的工具回答是完全正確的嗎前面四個就是國際在評比的時候經常在使用的那下面最後這個台德是我們台灣自己做的"},{"start":5751.164,"end":5771.225,"text":"三跟四比較對三跟四比較對是不是Cobiler跟Gemini這個我想文化部對於文資保存的這個主題顯然是做了非常多的功課沒有錯在三跟四的答案是完全正確的那有點可惜我們這個台灣自己做的台德答覆是錯誤的故宮博物院並不是我們的國定古蹟"},{"start":5772.486,"end":5789.595,"text":"那我想部長我相信你也相當了解啦其實我自己從進到立法院以來就一再強調開放資料的重要性您答對了文化部也答對了但我們AI竟然答錯了表示什麼呢表示他們得到的資訊可能不夠完整"},{"start":5790.835,"end":5808.306,"text":"我一直在講如果我擁有蒙娜麗莎這幅畫我會作為擁有者會做出來最錯誤的決定就是禁止它被印在T恤或馬克杯上面因為這樣再過50年或再過500年全世界就沒有人再知道蒙娜麗莎這幅畫"},{"start":5809.646,"end":5835.687,"text":"開放是文化唯一的生存之道開放越多人知道才有越多的人想要一清方擇並且認識它、擁抱它從前面我們詢問AI兩個問題裡面我們其實就已經發現了AI工具的回答不完全正確一部分的原因可能是資料過久沒有更新另外一部分的原因其實很可能是我們的相關部會對於AI去開放"},{"start":5836.087,"end":5861.763,"text":"文化資產保存的資料讓他去學習可能不夠完整不夠主動不夠積極導致有一些相關的錯誤部長我想請教您手中正有握有著全世界或者文化部握有全世界獨一無二的瑰寶就是我們台灣的文化資產您是否願意更主動積極的向全世界以及全世界的AI開放台灣豐富的文化涵養"},{"start":5862.443,"end":5863.746,"text":"這點我要先了解一下法例"},{"start":5872.216,"end":5893.908,"text":"因為我個人的意願好像我還得考慮這個法律問題制作權等等我想法律是要隨著時代改變我們現在就在立法院所以如果您覺得法律有什麼希望我們可以一起來協作部長如果您也同意這樣的方向是不是能夠提出具體的像AI開放文化資料的期程"},{"start":5894.688,"end":5912.825,"text":"法律哪裡有問題我們一起來努力嘛尤其台德我們剛剛看到的一個答錯的是台灣開發的第一個深層式的AI我個人非常支持政府也應該全力支持但是從回答內容來看台德自己作為台灣我們自己開發的AI資料卻是AI裡面最舊的"},{"start":5913.866,"end":5914.227,"text":"我們會研究這部分"},{"start":5929.063,"end":5944.02,"text":"接下來談到文資保存,其實文化部依《文化資產保存法》委託成立的國定股基分區專業服務團隊想請教一下部長是否有掌握目前國定股基分區專業服務團隊的成員人數一共有幾人?"},{"start":5948.763,"end":5974.65,"text":"這個32個很好齁32人的團隊要負責全國111處的國定古蹟的巡檢輔導建立個案資料還要定期更新人力非常的吃緊齁其實目前國內外我們剛剛只是講說我們可以主動提供資料給AI可是AI也可以主動積極的來幫助我們我們來看一下國內外有幾個用AI工具運用文資保存的案例"},{"start":5975.95,"end":6001.975,"text":"日本在2020年起日本的文化廳運用AI來檢查城樓、寺院、古宅等等文化廳也說他們也面臨到人員緊縮、老齡化的問題希望透過AI用數據累積的方式不只協助巡查還協助預判未來什麼樣的情況、什麼樣的氣候可能會面臨到需要修理的情況"},{"start":6002.995,"end":6029.854,"text":"再來我們看法國2019年一把大火讓800多年歷史的聖母院複製一具但是還好我作為一個阿宅真的覺得還好我們有玩遊戲遊戲公司之前在做遊戲的時候有做了全面3D VR的掃描導致這個高解析度的巴黎聖母院有被虛擬化AI化使得聖母院得以進行更快速的災後修復的工作"},{"start":6030.695,"end":6054.943,"text":"在臺灣,2021年嘉義市政府有跟雲科大合作去建置這個所謂的戶外AI智慧古物監測保存系統,透過AI來進行變形或者傾斜狀況的紀錄以及監測。那2022年雲科大的團隊更開發出全台首部AI文物智慧巡檢機器人,跟苗栗縣政府合作。想請教一下部長,"},{"start":6055.603,"end":6061.606,"text":"近5年來,文化部有沒有推動有關運用AI科技協助文資保存的計畫?現在有沒有?"},{"start":6083.399,"end":6095.555,"text":"確實我們詢問貴部說近5年這個文資局雖然尚無使用AI進行保存的計畫但也希望未來可以來做評議為什麼文化部向行政院爭取到歷史與文化資產維護發展計畫第5期"},{"start":6097.937,"end":6121.449,"text":"6年的計劃總經費高達160億從今年開始施行那我是希望能不能請部長來研議一下能夠運用AI科技來協助文化保存納入這一次的跨年期的計劃當中這個有沒有機會來研議我想我們會沒有問題委員你的建議非常好我們會納入那個優先"},{"start":6121.969,"end":6122.309,"text":"文資保存部門"},{"start":6141.758,"end":6160.938,"text":"做起至少禁用一名AI的人才並且用AI協助文資保存讓我們古蹟服務團隊的人力可以變成33加N等於是多一個AI的人才再運用AI等於去擴大人類的能力甚至無限擴增有沒有機會來研議"},{"start":6162.99,"end":6164.591,"text":"接下來要看部長談一個很重要的議題 文化平權我們剛剛講的只是普及 但是我們現在要來講平權"},{"start":6183.104,"end":6203.152,"text":"近年來文化部致力於推動文化平權每年花費約7億元的預算想請教一下部長除了消米實體世界中的歧視和偏見文化部對於虛擬世界對AI世界的文化平權有沒有提出相關的政策規劃有沒有計劃要投入相應的經費這點我想請資產來講"},{"start":6208.676,"end":6235.387,"text":"委員好那謝謝委員的指教那目前我們文化平權這個預算的推動確實是比較著重在一些實體的場域跟活動那委員這個部分的話我們會納入我們今年至於往後的一個推動的一個重點謝謝在這邊想提醒各位官員我們在社群媒體的時代已經見證了Digital Media社群媒體對人類的認知產生的影響是巨大且快速的"},{"start":6236.247,"end":6257.806,"text":"AI絕對不會更慢指揮更快而且更隱性歐盟已經講了會有輕推的作用這個輕推會是微小但是巨大的影響而且我們看不見為什麼會來提醒部長除了實體世界以外我們也要重視虛擬世界AI世界的平權呢在這邊我們特地準備了幾張AI繪製的圖片我們首先請AI繪製了兩張醫生的圖片"},{"start":6263.01,"end":6289.88,"text":"我們再請AI繪製了兩張護理師的圖片我們再請AI再畫了兩張公車司機的圖片我們再請AI畫了兩張空服人員的圖片我們再請AI畫了兩張保姆的圖片我們再請AI畫了兩張副總統的圖片我們用中文大家可以看一下"},{"start":6290.839,"end":6300.317,"text":"最後我們還讓他來了一張剛剛所有角色的大合照請教一下部長有沒有發現這些圖片有沒有奇怪的地方有就是性別上大家有些偏見嘛"},{"start":6304.087,"end":6324.656,"text":"沒錯,首先這些圖片帶有性別刻板印象醫生被預設為男性護理師被預設為女性而且一向面容較好公車司機一定是男性空服人員保姆則一定是女性還有副總統我們畫的四張全部是男性其實這些圖片很可能還隱藏了種族歧視"},{"start":6325.296,"end":6345.572,"text":"所有的職業．除了建築工人．有色人種以外．幾乎全部是白人．圖片當中亞洲人的身影寥寥無幾．明顯與真實世界的情況．當然也跟台灣的情況不符．部長您可以稍微思考一下．AI的偏見是如何產生．我們再來看一下文化的部分．請教一下部長以下的圖片．能不能分辨出哪一位是新娘．中間的事實上全部都是"},{"start":6353.581,"end":6374.922,"text":"地球上明明有那麼多元的文化每種文化都有風格獨具的儀式但是我們如果請AI畫出新娘禮服的話連畫恩賜全部都長一個樣子所以我想其實史丹佛大學研究已經發現AI在開發的階段他所學習的數據跟文化大多不包括亞洲國家"},{"start":6376.241,"end":6397.461,"text":"這會導致他們對這個世界的認知是有偏差的我們認為AI帶有偏見的情況應該要受到政府相關部門尤其文化部門的重視歐美國家想要藉由AI工具將西方的文化塑造成主流文化未來可能會有所謂的AI文化殖民引發在之後"},{"start":6398.522,"end":6420.134,"text":"我們在今天也看到了中研院院士孔祥崇先生有提到台灣擁有民主、多元、自由的價值我們認為AI應該要結合文化、要結合民主、要結合平權黃恩勳先生說台灣是AI的中心這雖然是一句褒獎但何嘗不是一種提醒"},{"start":6421.266,"end":6439.959,"text":"只有文化開放只有提供資訊讓文化AI來學習才能夠落實虛擬世界AI世界的文化平權讓台灣不要淪落為所謂文化的邊陲我們台灣不要只做AI的機房90%的AI的機器是台灣做的"},{"start":6440.419,"end":6466.954,"text":"我們未來有沒有可能：文化裡面有90%的華文化是由臺灣來提供出來的部長能不能承諾接下來文化部將會投入資源進行虛擬世界AI世界的文化普及、文化平權我們能不能一起來努力消彌虛擬世界裡頭一切大、七、小、文化殖民、AI殖民的刻板印象跟歧視有沒有機會我們一起努力謝謝葛委員這個真的非常重要我們會列入我們未來的施政的一些考慮"},{"start":6471.09,"end":6479.659,"text":"開放資料,讓AI認識真正的台灣,認識真正的人類文化謝謝部長,我們一起為文化平權的努力,感謝謝謝,謝謝葛委員好,謝謝葛如君委員,部長請回那等一下在吳佩奕委員質詢完,我們休息五分鐘我們接下來請陳培宇委員"},{"start":6499.394,"end":6502.917,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請部長 謝謝好 有請部長陳委員好部長雖然我的題目沒有含剛剛葛委員的題目可是我想要echo一下之前我們在跟國科會談泰的模型的時候我們就有拜託國科會一定要協同文化部來協助開發台灣的泰的模型因為剛剛葛委員所舉的例子"},{"start":6525.339,"end":6540.647,"text":"有很大一部分是因為我們人類在下關鍵字的時候我們自己就被自己單一的思維所侷限了例如說我要叫他產生一個副總統的圖像我其實可以多給他一點關鍵字例如說女性40到50歲"},{"start":6542.328,"end":6560.071,"text":"亞洲人膚色什麼透過我對這件事情的認識是我去教會那個生成模型所以這個部分我也要提一下不是AI本身出了問題是在使用它的人有沒有意識到自己正在用什麼樣的邏輯跟他對話所以台灣的TED模型真的需要文化部給予協助所以"},{"start":6561.232,"end":6578.138,"text":"之前我們跟國科會談過但我不確定國科會找你們了沒有那我想後續我們辦公室也會持續透過跨部會的協調希望在這件事情上讓臺灣的態度模型可以做得更好做得更多這個部分請問一下部長可以簡單回應一下嗎?他們需要資料他們需要繁中的資料我想他們可能自己在這件事情上的認知還需要更多文化部的協助那我們辦公室也會積極的追蹤"},{"start":6590.903,"end":6592.243,"text":"這點我想請文智集團回答好 謝謝"},{"start":6617.976,"end":6633.967,"text":"委員現在目前各地的這種工程開發的案子遇到了疑似考古遺址也是案件也不少這裡面當然在程序上還是要按照文資法的規範裡面有些要先停工這個我都知道我想問就這個case來說你們有什麼規劃嗎或者是目前你們跟他們當地因為目前他們是委託臺大團隊來協助嘛那臺大團隊這邊會不會回報任何訊息給你們因為過往曾經有一個比較近的案例是後來就開成了南科館"},{"start":6645.134,"end":6645.574,"text":"文化資產保存法施行事項"},{"start":6675.1,"end":6676.821,"text":"我們看到新聞說若實轉型正義中正紀念堂一對要撤出要從所謂的在裡面操演改到自由廣場上來操演"},{"start":6699.469,"end":6699.909,"text":"主要是大家一直"},{"start":6722.731,"end":6739.219,"text":"整個中正紀念壇的轉型正義的方式其實我們文化部已經進行很久了包括裡面的展示內容包括整個台灣的自由民主的過程等等那是內容的部分可是在外觀上大家一直對三軍儀隊在組團裡面對那個"},{"start":6744.401,"end":6767.138,"text":"對同向致敬這件事情有不同的意見認為說我們不應該像一個有威權但有威權的一個同向致敬它的確是一個問題但是我們又考慮到觀光客很喜歡看到這樣的過程那是不是不應該在同向前面看到把它換個地方有更多人可以看到而且他們本身三軍一隊也不會走得更遠更麻煩"},{"start":6769.44,"end":6796.136,"text":"其實我們這個怎麼走怎麼來我們已經來去我們文化部跟國安部已經試了好多路線最終最終我們要考慮一個這些三軍儀隊本身的表演很自然第二還是能夠更吸引觀光客第三也是考慮民眾上的觀感他能接受基本上我剛剛前面有講到說歷史上留下來的一些威權的建築"},{"start":6797.762,"end":6819.043,"text":"每一個社會都有不同的族群對它兩極的看法作為一個政府尤其是文化部在處理這種事情的時候我們必須非常小心的處理否則的話它會變成是一個簡單言之我不希望處理之後變成是一個撕裂族群的一個更嚴重的事情我希望處理得很好以後"},{"start":6820.011,"end":6840.086,"text":"他會成為一個歷史的過程好像翻一本書我們又翻到新的一頁去了我們不要再糾結在這些兩極的看法所以我上次為什麼會在一上任就講說他的生活方式他的改造對於中央經濟團未來的想像他有各種想像"},{"start":6840.686,"end":6865.664,"text":"他不是一定是現在這個狀況他有各種可能的改變那這個都列入我們未來的思考好 謝謝部長我剛剛保留了這麼多時間用掉我自己的時間讓部長談這件事情就是我覺得論述這件事情整體的一致性或者是整體的全面關照這件事情部長您剛舉了幾個族群一個是觀光客一個是台灣一般民眾的觀感"},{"start":6866.204,"end":6881.252,"text":"那一旦談到觀光是不是文化部要跟觀光局去討論觀光客到底喜歡看什麼那喜歡看儀隊表演我可以理解可是儀隊的表演在全世界各種樣態如果文化部是為了照顧觀光的需求甚且要去想像儀隊內容是不是要改變"},{"start":6881.972,"end":6899.149,"text":"如果是為了照顧族群大家可以一致的對話站在一個可對話的平台上可討論的平台上來看待這個那又回到另外一個面向要去做的事情所以對於把這個一對操演移到戶外這件事情我更關注的就是文化部自己整體的論述一定要站得住腳"},{"start":6899.75,"end":6927.171,"text":"因為如同部長您說的過去大家習慣在兩邊的光譜上極左跟極右大家各自對話各自發述但是可能沒有對話的空間我很感謝部長你想要促成對話而一旦要促成對話相關的論述又請文化部要發展得更完整那才有機會再促成觀光也好造成大家更多的對話造成大家更多的討論大家更團結以致為台灣那我都覺得這是好事可是相關的論述我覺得這樣聽起來文化部還要更加油好嗎好 謝謝部長"},{"start":6930.946,"end":6957.098,"text":"前一陣子 文化部辦了媒體查會 裡面就有記者談到了圖書折扣秩序制因為我不在那個查會現場 我只有看到相關的報導我相信當場的媒體 絕對不會只有問這個問題但是這個問題 被好幾個媒體 特別拿出來寫那當天呢 次長跟部長都有各自回答我很感謝部長你說 這可能有公平交易的問題但是我想要說的是 其實圖書統一定價制或是折扣秩序制這件事情"},{"start":6958.118,"end":6974.395,"text":"在文化部過往10年前曾經有過研究去年也發報做相關研究但是這個研究背後我想要提出我自己的觀點有一些問題我們來說每次只要提到問卷然後有消費者反應不想要被定價綁住這件事情但我很好奇"},{"start":6974.955,"end":6997.826,"text":"我們的問卷真的有告訴消費者其實臺灣的圖書出版業者早在10年前為了應付消費者喜歡買打折書這件事情早早在10幾年前就已經把圖書定價提高了嗎為了配合消費者就連在我自己辦的公聽會上有一個專門賣折扣套書的出版社都在公聽會上說啊這臺灣人很愛CP值啊我把書訂到6000然後打折變2000消費者買單買得不得了"},{"start":7004.089,"end":7022.877,"text":"這個事情大家早就知道但是在文化部的問卷裡面我很好奇當我們去問一個消費者說你喜不喜歡書有打折你看到書沒有打折你有什麼心情我們根本沒有告訴一般消費者這個背景知識再往下看韓國開始實施圖書定價制之後其實他們整體的業績只上升了兩億"},{"start":7023.777,"end":7049.064,"text":"其實並沒有很多可是他們卻造成了另外一個意外的現象就是他們圖書出版的書種變多圖書的市場變得更多元有大眾的主流的主題有小眾的單獨的市場也需要被照顧到而且在圖書出版也被照顧到了前兩天在中國的直播平台上有一個諾貝爾獎的得獎他的書在直播間好像不到4個小時賣出了11萬本"},{"start":7052.245,"end":7058.334,"text":"可是出版社已經告訴大家我們不是要透過直播間賣出11萬本的書來賺錢我們其實是賠錢的也就是說打折去賣書這件事情出版社很痛很賠錢可是他想要造成的是廣告效應"},{"start":7068.328,"end":7082.414,"text":"所以我想要告訴部長也想要拜託部長您來自出版界來自相關的基層藝術表演界你一定知道打折這件事情對所有的文化產業內容的創作者是多麼大的打擊絕對不是只有在出版產業"},{"start":7083.354,"end":7096.748,"text":"更何況文化部一直想要推廣臺灣的影視音想要推廣臺灣的IP但部長如果你研究臺灣最喜歡拿的韓國來舉例韓國有非常多的IP所有的content都是來自出版產業而一旦我們用這樣的方法繼續摧殘圖書產業我真的不知道臺灣自己的作家還有多少人願意投入"},{"start":7103.215,"end":7103.656,"text":"我可請部長簡單回應一下"},{"start":7117.067,"end":7138.037,"text":"謝謝陳委員在我過去的經驗中一個國家的文學作品很重要然後出版也非常重要因為它是所有文化的開始如果有一個很好的文學作品它變成一個很好的IP變成電影電視遊戲等等音樂等等在我那個年代我是非常鼓勵這樣子的所以"},{"start":7138.897,"end":7166.523,"text":"一定要保有台灣在文學包括出版的這個利基才能夠發展出更好的文化產業這點我非常相信所以未來我想我會有關這些折扣也好圖書館的借宿也好這些我們的訪問服務在研擬了我希望多聽一點出版界本身他們的建議還有剛剛講到消費者他們喜歡的折扣這些消費行為我們都一併討論"},{"start":7167.763,"end":7175.133,"text":"我相信有非常多社會溝通的工作當然落在產業本身產業本身很積極在做這件事情可是從非常多圖書統一定價制的國家市場看來一旦有推行圖書統一定價制的好處會是什麼就是圖書出版的樣態會非常多元"},{"start":7184.065,"end":7213.565,"text":"甚至連我們認為有所謂言論管制的中國他們都有發現這個現象更何況是韓國、法國、日本相關的國家只要推行突出定價制其實書的樣態會非常非常的多元言論跟文化不再會是單一化大家不會只看到所謂的主流暢銷書這些事情在市場上所以我覺得站在台灣過往曾經有文化多元這個黃金的市場上我們必須要回來看這件事情如果現在它不再發生如同部長你說的現在這個世代不再發生到底原因是什麼"},{"start":7214.125,"end":7238.107,"text":"到底跟折扣的關係又是什麼到底跟台灣人的閱讀閱聽習慣的改變關係又是什麼其實非常需要你們的政策配套我舉最後一個例子韓國為了振興所謂出版產業他們做了政策配套做了市場調查做了閱讀推廣做了數位升級做了人才培育做了國際合作做了文化輸出而且所有他們的政策都有相關的法源依據作為配套"},{"start":7238.607,"end":7238.907,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝部長 謝謝委員"},{"start":7266.427,"end":7268.049,"text":"陳培鈺委員林德福委員"},{"start":7292.799,"end":7306.627,"text":"林委員你好部長你好我想少子化的問題嚴重很嚴重日前行政院長卓榮泰提議護證單位將未婚未生的民眾資料勾結給相關單位介紹"},{"start":7311.29,"end":7332.264,"text":"這個獎勵政策．本席對卓院長的提議．我持保留的意見．這牽涉到個人隱私的問題．但是少子化的確是一個國安的問題．那文化部辦理國家兒童未來館新建的計劃．本席建議國家應該減輕．撫養兒童家庭的負擔．多給予門票優惠"},{"start":7337.327,"end":7363.707,"text":"你有什麼看法?非常謝謝林委員的建議因為這個國家兒童未來館我們還在設計中未來裡面的內容還有如何經營票價多少這一點沒有問題沒有問題嗎?對全國12歲兒童入館應享優待那場館周遭的居民更應該享有門票的優惠撫養多派"},{"start":7367.227,"end":7384.205,"text":"等於是這個多胞胎的民眾路館享有優待以鼓勵國人多多使用來加惠撫養兒童之家庭那本期要提醒李部長未來在規劃國家兒童未來館門票上收"},{"start":7385.146,"end":7408.355,"text":"等於是收費上必須針對這個少子化的問題設計門票相關的優惠以減輕父母育兒的壓力你有什麼看法我覺得這個觀念蠻正確的我們未來會考慮如何經營這個場館但是最希望就是所有的兒童都能夠享受這個對啦 不要以盈利為目的啦不會不會那個李部長美國藝術四大獎"},{"start":7411.616,"end":7432.082,"text":"外界認為分別是劇場東尼獎、電影奧斯卡金像獎、電視有艾美獎、音樂有葛萊美獎那國內對於電影、金馬、電視金鐘與音樂金曲皆有重要的獎項唯獨舞台劇的劇類缺少"},{"start":7435.143,"end":7458.569,"text":"那這些指標的講像來鼓勵他如何去創作因此這個臺北市文化局踏出第一步這個設立臺北戲劇獎預計明年6月頒獎本席我也希望文化部與藝文界攜手合作共同來催生等同三金等級的舞台戲劇"},{"start":7460.369,"end":7487.368,"text":"的這些獎項讓國內劇場更加蓬勃發展以提升民眾這個去欣賞劇場表演藝術的意願你有什麼看法那李部長就像那個電影我們中央有金馬獎臺北市有臺北電影節它各有特色金馬獎是華人以華人電影臺北電影節只能臺灣電影所以剛剛非常謝謝委員的建議我們正在研擬中"},{"start":7488.068,"end":7496.872,"text":"我希望你要去重視這個問題本席另外也跟李部長探討公共藝術的推廣根據預算書資料藝術銀行112年6月底完成了432件作品的出租"},{"start":7505.875,"end":7509.12,"text":"租金收入119萬元111年作品出租1,005件租金收入299萬元藝術銀行111年獲得3,079萬預算補助"},{"start":7525.1,"end":7541.436,"text":"該年度租金收入僅有299萬本席是希望說藝術銀行早日能夠靠租金收入來維持營運李部長你有什麼看法有關詳細的數字我想請次長回答好嗎好啊 可以"},{"start":7543.632,"end":7572.451,"text":"跟委員報告藝術銀行一直在提升他出租可以獲利的這個可以得到的收益那現在最重要就是我們跟內政部的社社就是社宅來做合作所以在社宅的這間合作上我就是要問社宅的問題其實你要自給自足啦去年文化部與內政部開始推動社宅異想計畫以新台幣10億元的公共藝術基金規模來達成10年的合作由藝術銀行操刀"},{"start":7574.072,"end":7587.276,"text":"為社會住宅規劃藝術展示的服務那我請問李部長目前藝術銀行收藏的作品有多少件?3092件那已經開始在社會住宅展覽數量"},{"start":7601.271,"end":7601.351,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7622.894,"end":7642.162,"text":"社區管理委員會也來申請租借藝術作品嗎會不會朝這個方針會會因為社宅大概要蓋10年所以我們還有足夠的時間來我是希望李部長你心冷但是好好的去規劃朝這方面的理想去實現好不好謝謝好謝謝林德福委員部長請回我們接下來請吳佩奕委員"},{"start":7658.967,"end":7661.851,"text":"謝謝主席 我請文化部部長好 有請部長"},{"start":7667.094,"end":7672.817,"text":"吳委員你好部長好大家都很關心我們這一屆金曲獎典禮的辦理那一天我也在現場觀賞從頭做到尾那我要坦言說因為在典禮進行的過程當中我沒有太多時間在看手機我蠻專注在欣賞表演所以直到典禮結束我們司長"},{"start":7689.266,"end":7690.306,"text":"大眾對於當時巴奈在台上的發言我們的"},{"start":7710.186,"end":7724.466,"text":"關網可以說是官方的臉書第一時間沒有完整的結錄其實大家有很多的質疑認為說這個是不是涉及到政治的審查那包含剛剛部長的回答以及文化部第一時間的說明"},{"start":7725.948,"end":7735.31,"text":"我們知道說這不是經過一個內容實質審查造成的結果可是我還是要說我們確實有要檢討之處也許部長你還記得上一次也是在這個地方我正在跟你討論也就是我們文化部所俠館的台灣館的抄襲事件在社群平台上面的發布當時我就提醒文化部現在這個時代每一篇小編的發文都等同於文化部的新聞稿"},{"start":7756.206,"end":7778.221,"text":"大眾會認為這是我們文化部的態度以及立場所以當時也請文化部去進行了盤點究竟我們有多少的社群平台帳號你們在6月17號回覆給我的公文當中還說明現在文化部所屬的社群帳號有三種一種是官方社群一種是為了推廣業務使用第三種也就是各類獎項我想就包括這次金曲獎當中"},{"start":7779.602,"end":7782.664,"text":"所以我還是要問這個重點是在於流程當時我有強力的要求部長你們要去建立這個發文、審文然後刊出的這個流程我們這一次事件發生是當天晚上的9點23分PO出了第一篇文章那因為內容是揭露的因為每一個得獎人你們都是揭露發言但是因為他的發言內容有涉及到了政治"},{"start":7805.976,"end":7826.093,"text":"所以當你選擇刊登或不刊登其實它本身確實是一種主觀上面的認定所以大家都開始質疑了為什麼有些被刊登有些沒有被刊登那我想問第一篇發文有沒有經過我們文化部的承辦人員或是你們相關內部人的審核或者同意"},{"start":7826.894,"end":7827.875,"text":"所以在發出的時候我們文化部沒有任何人看過可以確定"},{"start":7855.376,"end":7875.548,"text":"好部長但是你們在6月17號回覆給我的公文就是我過去詢問你們文化部對於我們所管轄的這些帳號社群帳號你們建立的SOP流程是什麼你們告訴我說以上我剛所上述的三種帳號包含了辦理各類獎項社群這三種發文都須經過機關內主責單位同意發布"},{"start":7884.588,"end":7899.174,"text":"這是你們回覆給我的公文也就是說這一次的這個小編發布文章按照你們文化部應該要的流程是需要你們內部的人員有看過並且同意的部長我的理解有錯誤嗎好我想請次長解釋一下"},{"start":7904.07,"end":7904.51,"text":"部長,之所以要建立SOP流程"},{"start":7931.494,"end":7937.332,"text":"就是你不能有太多的例外嘛你討論每個都是個案每個都是例外我們不需要流程啦"},{"start":7938.575,"end":7963.695,"text":"對 對"},{"start":7964.798,"end":7967.121,"text":"所以我們這一個流程什麼時候可以徹底的檢討?是"},{"start":7973.551,"end":7999.047,"text":"這個7月底以前我們完成一個徹底的檢討好不好好那另外呢就是關於這個音響設備技術層面也很多人討論過了那我還是要講說我認為這件事情的嚴重性因為我也去參加過我們文化部跟北流高流一起推動的記者會我們現在很大的一個任務就是要把我們台流台灣的影視音人員及產業"},{"start":8000.668,"end":8017.079,"text":"這麽優秀的內容文化可以輸出到國際我們要出海但是我們國家辦的典禮出現這麼嚴重的技術錯誤這不只是我們社會大眾在看國際的產業市場也都在看"},{"start":8018.42,"end":8035.889,"text":"這是我們的文化軟實力的其中之一演唱會它絕對不只是臺上的表演者整個團隊都非常的重要那我們這次的承辦廠商臺視也有發表一個公開的聲明其中有兩點我認為是很重要也希望文化部後續要持續來督促的"},{"start":8036.949,"end":8039.271,"text":"一個是有來說明說這一次的影響承辦公司出了哪些技術層次的錯誤第二個是臺市提到了未來對於協力廠商會更加的嚴謹"},{"start":8051.311,"end":8052.291,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8072.017,"end":8095.007,"text":"相關的這些單位的檢討也是要請你們再提出來好接下來要跟部長討論的是中正紀念堂因為已經有提到說我們國防部有提到要把我們的這個三軍的崇敬儀式撤除來移到廣場那我想請問部長你的看法"},{"start":8096.964,"end":8122.321,"text":"這個事情其實講了很多年關鍵卡在國防部那最近國防部表達說他不堅持不堅持這個絕對不能動那就給了我們一個可以討論的空間我前面也講過對於中央紀念館最重要的是未來的到底我們要把它變成一個怎麼樣的東西可是在目前大家最關心的就是對於威權對於去"},{"start":8123.737,"end":8123.877,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8133.959,"end":8161.968,"text":"已經被討論了很久那最近我非常積極的跟國防部已經討論了很多遍到底他們要怎麼樣改成另外一種方式在中正經常的廣場或者是考慮這些已對他們的動線觀眾的看法已經非常多次了我想雖然我們本來是轉型正義的會議是在10月份我個人希望快一點有決定然後做出一個讓大家覺得還算滿意的一個結論"},{"start":8163.627,"end":8189.637,"text":"是 這個三軍是不是要取消重慶儀式這當然國防部的看法至關重要這其實文化部也無法決定但是你們主管的是整個園區啊因為現在有一種討論是說把他們移到廣場也可以來促進我們的觀光但是我想要講的是國軍是不是最適合來做文化展演推動觀光的主體呢因為最近我們國防部才在討論取消這個"},{"start":8192.577,"end":8202.219,"text":"演習的劇本取消踢正部就是要進行國軍裡面的形式主義的廢除需要讓他們是朝向更有功能性的實戰來訓練所以呢在我們的文化部的兩廳院廣場裡面其實我們過去也有相當多的藝文演出也有商業合作但是它不如兩廳院內部我們是一整年檔期通通排滿的我認為我們對於這個兩廳院的廣場"},{"start":8222.369,"end":8246.664,"text":"的文化展演如何也來結合城市的觀光我們文化部應該可以有更積極更多的規劃部長你認同嗎我認同但是他的操演是屬於中正紀念壇這一邊的然後另外兩庭的文化館長又是另外一個不同單位所以我們現在考慮的只有中正紀念壇這一塊所以他在哪裡操演我們還在考慮中"},{"start":8247.905,"end":8269.385,"text":"是,但是我要講的是整個我們園區的轉型不能只靠去移動我們這個議隊的位置我們文化部本身我知道你們最近這個關於中正紀念堂一百種想像展覽在各地在巡迴演出那個展覽我也去看過我覺得非常好因為我們園區本來就應該要更天際我們當代的都市計畫"},{"start":8270.846,"end":8270.926,"text":"最後的..."},{"start":8282.352,"end":8287.276,"text":"一分鐘的時間是今天我們也要關心的是文資保存那我的選區呢臺北市中正萬華區是佔了臺北市的古蹟大概有將近一半那一般我們想到說歷史古蹟哪裡最多都會以為是我們昭緯選區臺南結果呢其實一算下來其實臺北才是最多的尤其中正萬華區又佔了一半"},{"start":8307.333,"end":8320.764,"text":"部長因為過去你也在臺北市文基會也服務過所以我想要有一個提議是在我們的中正區裡面因為古蹟非常的多那有非常多中央的文化場館比如說我們臺博館我們時博館那也有很多我們臺北市政府俠館的文化場館我認為這裡非常適合來推動一個國家級的藝文郎道"},{"start":8328.61,"end":8346.387,"text":"例如說我們各個單位在舉辦管方的活動的時候是不是可以結合社區或是不是可以不是有單點的而是點加點可以連串連成一個一個帶狀的形成這個部分我希望我們中央文化部是不是可以跟我們地方政府臺北市文化局有更積極的討論未來可以來推動相關的合作"},{"start":8350.017,"end":8369.695,"text":"這個沒有問題其實跟委員報告我自己就出生在萬華我對於萬華四周的那個有什麼宮廟我都很熟然後中正區現在很多日本房子也在重建它的確是已經變成是一個這個古蹟跟歷史建物最多的一個地方所以我想我們"},{"start":8370.416,"end":8371.577,"text":"謝謝吳佩奕委員部長請回讓我們接下來先休息5分鐘"},{"start":8417.803,"end":8418.004,"text":"主席"},{"start":8695.25,"end":8697.851,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8718.063,"end":8736.51,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8747.554,"end":8761.384,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8805.47,"end":8808.592,"text":"好 我們繼續開會我們接下來請郭育晴委員質詢"},{"start":8818.655,"end":8818.835,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":8828.188,"end":8853.059,"text":"部長早安不用擔心我拿麥克風是因為感冒的關係不是為了要大吼大叫部長我想這個上個禮拜最受爭議的其實就是金曲獎的部分那我想愛之勝責之切在這裡其實還是要請教部長幾個問題就是關於這次的金曲獎那就是有不少的一個爭議包含我們的"},{"start":8854.619,"end":8878.471,"text":"巴奈上台的整個所有的感言是在一個小時一個半小時之後才完整的補上那這個部分其實引起了大家很多的聲音那我想台灣向來就是一個自由民主的一個國家那我們對於文化對於藝術上的一個創作的尊重那包含得獎者他們的一些他們的發言"},{"start":8879.091,"end":8902.279,"text":"其實都不應該要被審查但是在這個地方其實我們看到文化部雖然在當天的半夜也緊急的發了一些聲明稿但是我發現了一個小問題我們不是在自己的文章上面就是我們的金曲獎的官網的FB上面並不是在上面直接一篇文章來做這樣子的說明"},{"start":8902.819,"end":8926.23,"text":"而是放在留言底下來做這樣子的一個反應那這個部分我個人是覺得本席還是希望能夠建議在這個文化部的部分是不是能夠在最快最短的一個時間點趁這兩個禮拜其實大家都還在討論這個話題我想金曲講的是我們非常重要的一個盛事"},{"start":8928.15,"end":8955.141,"text":"當然其實言論不應該被箝制也不應該被限縮尤其是得獎者他們的一個感言雖然我們做了補救但我個人認為誠意跟歉意似乎還是有一點點不夠雖然我們知道其實提到六四天安門的事件在過去比方說在1989年趙少康先生他還召集了台灣的四家唱片一百多個藝人"},{"start":8956.521,"end":8984.111,"text":"作了一首歌叫做是《歷史的傷口》那我想我們沒有應該是說我們對這一次金學獎的這樣子的一個事件引發這麼大的一個爭議我覺得文化部是不是在這個地方應該還是要再做一個更正式的對民眾的一個說明跟我們真的在跟所謂的這個協辦的單位協辦的單位台式來做一個責任的追溯這個部分是不是"},{"start":8984.411,"end":8984.531,"text":"主席"},{"start":9001.278,"end":9019.253,"text":"除了這幾個技術上的問題以後我們會做個整個的檢討做為我們下一次再怎麼樣發包然後怎麼樣可以監督他還有包括未來如果繼續有這樣子發文我們如果有個政治的應變我想我們都會一起考慮"},{"start":9021.014,"end":9037.569,"text":"除了要周延的考慮我覺得就是部長可以跟著承辦單位我們再做一個更正式的記者會甚至對外的一個說明這是我本席的一些意見我不曉得部長您覺得可能會比媒體私下來受訪因為不見得每個人都會看臉書"},{"start":9038.93,"end":9062.848,"text":"也不見得每一個人都會看新聞但是如果說是由部長這邊跟承辦單位我們把整件事情說明清楚臺灣其實還是接納多元崇尚自由創作尊重創作的這樣子的一個好地方這個部分我希望其實我來考慮一下因為整個真相從當天發生到第二天越來越激烈"},{"start":9063.951,"end":9064.111,"text":"《文化資產保存法》"},{"start":9084.542,"end":9086.463,"text":"接下來有關於中國媒體疑似介入臺灣政論的節目這件事情我想到目前為止"},{"start":9108.552,"end":9132.07,"text":"就是我們文化部這個地方有沒有什麼樣的一個說法那之後可能要跟這個陸委會還有這個移民署我們是不是跨部會來針對這件事情所引發可能後續因為我們知道其實對岸對於台灣真的是無孔不入啦那我想呢他們也可能會從政論節目上面下手這個是絕對有可能的事情這個部分我們怎麼樣來防範呢"},{"start":9133.451,"end":9142,"text":"整個過程我想請因為我們去跟陸委會還有約談那個幾個對象的過程我想請王次長跟委員報告詳細一點"},{"start":9146.42,"end":9160.186,"text":"跟委員做說明目前這個案子我們就是在進行行政調查當中所以對於邀請單位以及駐台的單位都跟路委會協同路委會一起在進行事實內容了解但因為到目前為止這一則事件是基於媒體的報導那這個報導並沒有指證出實質的"},{"start":9164.028,"end":9164.268,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9187.876,"end":9192.72,"text":"如果他的行為跟他申請的目的活動不符的話第一個當然可以廢止或者撤銷他的執照第二個當然就是請他離境"},{"start":9211.937,"end":9212.057,"text":"主席"},{"start":9224.488,"end":9254.251,"text":"我們自從有文資法定定40年來40幾年來那其實真的因為毀損而被重刑或者是入獄的幾乎是沒有任何一件那我們在台灣其實真的也很遺憾的會看到很多人在講說只要是你的土地上有一個古蹟如果他自然可能就是因為都更有這樣子的一個都市傳說那2020年的6月其實台中的這個刑務所的"},{"start":9255.171,"end":9282.977,"text":"官社群被活吻那當然其實也引發了所謂的這個自然的一些問題那我想在舊文資法的這個修法的部分其實我們是不是應該要怎麼樣去再做更進一步或者是說再怎麼樣去防範這些我們的古蹟遭到人為的一個破壞但是真的被人為破壞之後卻真的沒有辦法去落實文資法的這些刑責的部分"},{"start":9284.117,"end":9286.118,"text":"這個部分部長您怎麼看?"},{"start":9296.343,"end":9317.475,"text":"在《文治法》裡面人為破壞的話有106條都有相關的刑法或者行政法那目前像最近的兩個像花蓮玉里、鐵道的宿舍還有屏東大五園區裡頭的那些縱火案件都已經移送法辦現在都在審判當中"},{"start":9318.055,"end":9320.037,"text":"每年台灣幾乎都有古蹟會自燃的這個現象能夠真的降低我想這個文化的保存對於台灣來講其實是非常重要的"},{"start":9337.371,"end":9354.261,"text":"前年我們2022年臺南的火車站跟鹿港的龍山寺他們陸續發生了所謂的修壞了的事件我想這個部長應該也大概清楚原本的一個窗框到後來變成一個彩繪的窗框或者是在古蹟當中的廁所"},{"start":9355.512,"end":9369.569,"text":"明明是古蹟但他真的就被拆掉了那針對這個部分當然我們有一個文資傳匠的一個攻防那我想目前在這個修復的人力上面"},{"start":9371.551,"end":9385.559,"text":"目前有93人是通過了這個所謂的傳統的降師的一個資格的審查但是呢真正能夠在從事這個修復的工作的人是不到三分之一的一個人力是只有299人"},{"start":9387.56,"end":9408.996,"text":"那我想這個部分是不是真的在我們的古蹟的修復上面在人力的部分是真的明顯的不足這個部分我們怎麼樣來做補救那另外呢像是台灣雖然沒有所謂的國家修復的一個體制但是有幾個所謂的商業的修復的中心包含政修科大雲林科大還有我們的這個國立台南藝術大學"},{"start":9409.957,"end":9412.898,"text":"委員講古蹟修復人才的問題我們最近才開過一個會議就是我們要強化傳統匠師他的薪水保障"},{"start":9435.467,"end":9460.463,"text":"另外我們為了要讓年輕一代的可以進入這個修復的工作我們就訂了一個降師的分級制度然後擴大我們這個傳降課程的培訓還有跟教育部我們會進行可不可以這方面的科系多一點科系的開設另外我們也必須輔導地方政府傳統修復人才因為我們中央本身"},{"start":9461.924,"end":9462.104,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9478.456,"end":9507.58,"text":"因為我們建立一個回訊制度就是在工地負責人的技術這些人員再回來受訓就是謝謝委員剛剛提的那個的確是我們最近面臨很大的問題所以我們也一直在開會尤其是現在因為少子化的關係所以其實包含我們的科系能不能夠招滿這些學生或者這些學生他們在畢業之後是不是真的能夠投入這個台灣古今修復的一個能力的行業其實這次都需要很快速的能夠"},{"start":9508.2,"end":9508.58,"text":"郭玉琴議員張雅琳議員"},{"start":9539.163,"end":9558.97,"text":"張委員您好部長早安首先我在這次看金曲獎的時候我在看到這個表演的時候有這個台文而且是正字正確的我其實真的非常感到高興但很不幸的在接下來我又看到了另外一個片段同樣一段的表演"},{"start":9559.95,"end":9574.512,"text":"就出現了快快快 領袖賣K孩賣K孩這個正字應該要寫成是這個樣子所以我想要了解就是說其實因為"},{"start":9575.666,"end":9604.365,"text":"文化部,其實其他的語言都有相關的組織單位那文化部是台語唯一的組織單位是非常需要大家來謹慎的照顧我們的台語所以我只是在想在我們這個台語的歌詞雖然它可能是老歌的歌詞大家過去對台文不了解可能也沒有那個機會學習所以會用可能空耳或是火星文或是我們自己認為的語言去把它拼寫出來但是因為我們現在都在推廣台文了"},{"start":9605.646,"end":9623.751,"text":"我們在這樣大型的典禮其實也是一個很好的宣傳機會我們是不是應該要來確保我們寫出來的臺文是正確的嘛我們才能讓大家知道臺語也是有語言的才不會出現像之前可能有委員質詢這個問題嘛所以我在想請教 因為接下來還有金鐘跟金馬"},{"start":9624.471,"end":9650.894,"text":"我們是不是可以記取這次的教訓我有兩個建議第一個我們是不是可以因為我們已經有專家學者治療庫了我們是不是可以請臺文專家來協助如果有些相關的歌詞是臺語的部分我們可以提供證字可以提供一些刊物的協助那再來就是說可能大家也會擔心說要是不是有點不尊重我們原本的創作者那我們是不是有另外一個方式我們把原歌詞跟正確的歌詞併成我不曉得說部長您的看法如何"},{"start":9651.57,"end":9678.256,"text":"因為這個部分涉及到那個原作者他用的一些著作權如果能夠溝通比如說跟他講說你願不願意改他如果願意改我想就我們就改因為剛剛委員提到這個用字用語沒有一個標準這個我們剛好最近文化部成立了一個國家語言發展研究中心想要做的事情可能就這一部分是一個蠻重要的部分就是各種不同的語言它的"},{"start":9679.364,"end":9679.384,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":9701.326,"end":9701.726,"text":"接下來就是有關於不義遺址的"},{"start":9727.952,"end":9729.135,"text":"發言委員．修復體系翻新升級"},{"start":9739.568,"end":9759.029,"text":"這一個字不易以止我想要了解就是說已經也一年了大概什麼時候呢我們會送進立法院來做審查呢好據我所知已經送到立法院了那詳細情況行政院對不起我們說到行政院但是還沒有送到立法院請那個承辦這個整個事情比較了解的黃市長來好謝謝跟你報告"},{"start":9762.762,"end":9790.814,"text":"跟委員說明其實後來在去年5月9號之後大概我們在跟行政院由政委來主持會又經過了幾次的條文的修正所以在去年的12月28號有修到最後的版本進到行政院那後來行政院跟立法院應該是在協調立法院排案的進度那這個部分我們大概就尊重行政院協調的結果所以什麼時候會排進立法院大概還是要看行政院跟貴院協調的的最終時程來定定"},{"start":9791.494,"end":9818.237,"text":"好 我了解那我想就是說因為其實我們之前其實也有跟文資局來做一些討論那他就有講到不義遺址因為其實在之前的轉型生意、兔轉會的時代大家就一直有講這件事情非常的重要如何保留這個不義遺址來做一些人權教育啊來活化這些基地都是傳承台灣過去這一個過程的一個歷史那但是當時呢文資局告訴我們說就是說因為不義遺址他沒有辦法因為在現在的他沒有遺構"},{"start":9819.158,"end":9842.572,"text":"他也沒有見誤這種狀況他很難去認定他是一個不遺址他很難做一些活化保存啦應該是這樣講所以他非常需要這個專法可是現在聽起來我又沒有這個專法那我們針對這些潛在的不遺址現在還有這麼多處我們已經有相關的審議會議來做審定他的資格沒有錯但是呢到底我們要如何來活化他呢我們沒有相關的一個計畫"},{"start":9844.073,"end":9861.523,"text":"不然就會變成爹不疼娘不愛他變成一個孤兒到底誰來照顧他可是他就日漸的凋零所以我現在是看到就是說我們是不是可以有一些相關的計畫的方式或者是用一些要點管理要點的方式來做這個相關的活化的工作呢"},{"start":9861.863,"end":9885.875,"text":"跟委員說明大概分成幾個部分第一個是已經審定的不移植42處那這42處因為已經建立了它的已經指定了已經確定它是不移植所以這個部分是以內容的充實史料的完整來為主那第二部分所謂潛在的部分那潛在的部分雖然不移植的這個法案還沒有通過但是我們開始進行所謂的預審我們就先把這些潛在的不移植有可能應該是變成不移植再做審定"},{"start":9887.056,"end":9902.409,"text":"現在是活化的工作,身份有,但是活化的工作呢?現在的問題是因為現在的不移植分屬於不同的地方,譬如說它如果是公有的,譬如說有的像這一次在臺南的民生綠園那裡也有一個,它現在就在使用的狀態,就比較沒有活化的問題。那有一些譬如它在國防的機敏地帶,那它就有沒有辦法活化的問題。"},{"start":9907.373,"end":9934.486,"text":"那有一些是在私人的部分那他就也有說他可能不願意讓大家知道這是所謂的不義遺址還要進行溝通但是這是一部分的問題但是既也有一些是比如說像集美人權園區或者是像安康接待所像這些我們就是已經把它列入所謂活化的內容就是說我們把它變成是人權園區或者是像綠島人權園區這些其實也都是所謂的不義遺址所以他大概有分不同的階段如果是公有的沒有爭議的"},{"start":9935.566,"end":9957.725,"text":"然後已經被審定的歷史的資料也相對完整的這個大概就會進入首部的活化好沒關係我了解齁我了解喔但是我想那我們就直接進到這一個就是說因為相關的工作其實是人權管的工作嘛齁那我也看到就是人權管從2012年到現在你也可以看到這張表格我們他的人權推廣活動的補助預算占整體的比例是逐年下降"},{"start":9958.425,"end":9987.523,"text":"那我想要了解這個原因是什麼因為其實我也知道有非常多是既有其實也沒有任何爭議的但是我現在看到我們相關的內容其實還是非常的少這是第一個比例經費的下降第二個不易移植的教案從2019年之後時光就凍結了沒有再更新而且高中、國中、國小都只有一個教案那我覺得這對活化這件事情是相對的不積極所以我想要了解說我們有沒有更積極的方式從第一個先幫我解釋一下預算的部分"},{"start":9989.704,"end":10005.258,"text":"跟文說明對於不移植的教案這個部分其實要繼續的開發中我們這個部分一定會積極來做提升不會讓它停留在只有三個教案那至於補助案的部分據我的了解是這樣因為它的補助案它會因為補助的需求跟項目而減少"},{"start":10006.119,"end":10029.42,"text":"但是它的經費其實整體經費並沒有減少它可能用在自辦或者是像自辦旅行這一類的方式人權小旅行這一類的方式或者是做人權這個巡迴車的這個推廣所以它不一定是以補助的形式展現但是如果有哪些做人權的但是我們因為沒有補助而導致它沒有辦法進行推動的也請委員不吝提供我們這樣的資訊我們會非常樂意來進行這一類的補助"},{"start":10032.062,"end":10049.393,"text":"好,因為我想啊,因為你剛剛講的那些部分,可能有部分是用促轉基金做的,對嗎?但是因為這個促轉基金到底有多少的預算可不可以也提供給我們?因為我們之前還沒有拿到,之前我跟你們說一句啦,那之後再匯報補給我們。好,因為促轉基金是每年申請的,所以它的額度也都不相同。"},{"start":10050.113,"end":10066.83,"text":"對對對那我就說你們從去年開始有申請嘛對不對那這個實際的金額也提供給我們但是我想說促轉基金之外我覺得我們可以回到這一張來看我們人權推廣補助案整體的經費的確是下降的但是你剛剛有說有些是自辦的那這些費用也相關的一起整理給我們我們來看看到底"},{"start":10068.632,"end":10088.573,"text":"民間是有在回應,他們覺得補助案的金變少了我們來請人權管做一個總整理剛有講到教案可以來積極的處理,那我想要了解規劃進度是何時我們一樣可以通過委員我們的規劃進度因為這個教案的部分是我們主力的在做人權推廣的一個主要的內容"},{"start":10089.468,"end":10117.384,"text":"因為他們現在做的是比較多是把原有的教案複製提供給更多的學校那至於在內容的充實上我想這就是我們持續來進行就是除了去擴散學校以外同時也在內容上增加更多的教案對 因為我這個這件事情我真的非常的希望大家可以重視啦因為其實這個教案就是提供給老師們或是家長們可以讓在家裡或在學校裡自己操作嘛可是如果都做一個案子的話變成它操作性上面難度非常高可能要有不同的地點"},{"start":10119.165,"end":10119.886,"text":"中正經驗堂教案"},{"start":10142.507,"end":10167.157,"text":"民間的偵檢我過去在民間都有在做這件事情那我今天要講這個中正紀念堂就當時我做的這個教案我們邀請了一堆來一些來自於深藍家庭的或是外省第二代的家庭那他們聽完我們的故事之後呢他就講了這一段話我覺得非常的重要就是說他雖然很早就知道講中正的真實版本但當時改名叫自由廣場的時候他會覺得是不是太沒事早試做了"},{"start":10168.547,"end":10191.399,"text":"改的名字也沒有原來的響亮畢竟他是外省第二代但是那天他聽我們講完這整個走讀的故事之後他突然覺得改名真的很重要所以希望這裡可以成為一個兼具歷史的有意義的又親民的一個場地所以這個教案其實就是在幫我們做很多很多民間的鬆動跟凝聚民間的共識讓不同的視角可以一起來對話"},{"start":10193.26,"end":10199.575,"text":"所以這件事情真的是非常需要積極的來做所以相關的一些計畫規劃的內容我們就在會後約個時間來詳細討論好嗎"},{"start":10203.62,"end":10223.191,"text":"最後抱歉,我快快講一句,昨天今年的談判其實大家有非常多的爭議在講衛兵交接的儀式到如何進行我這邊也可以提供一個想法供部長來參考當然要對威權致敬這是一個非常荒謬的事情"},{"start":10223.951,"end":10240.239,"text":"現在大家在討論說但是它又是一個很重要的觀光的一個儀式就很像是可能白金漢宮啊 都有這種儀式大家想要去看但是我覺得我們是不是就應該把它定定為它就是一個觀光的表演大家也可以來思考是不是就是一個觀光的表演"},{"start":10241.199,"end":10241.48,"text":"提供給部長來做個參考謝謝"},{"start":10268.476,"end":10268.796,"text":"張雅玲議員"},{"start":10292.13,"end":10310.495,"text":"李委員你好部長辛苦部長在上週二本席的總質詢裡我質詢顧林雄部長那他很明確的說國防部的態度就是三軍一隊可以移到自由廣場那最終拍板的就是文化部"},{"start":10311.255,"end":10340.062,"text":"那我想而且要強調國防部會完全的配合那在這樣的狀況之下當然文化部的態度就是關鍵喔那我想藉這個機會因為早上有很多的委員都有垂詢就藉這個機會也請部長來說明就第一個三軍儀隊離開堂體是否已經是文化部的最終定案那第二個就是說三軍儀隊是不是會如同國防部的建議改到自由廣場去操練那再來就是說文化部"},{"start":10341.143,"end":10345.571,"text":"還會不會再思考對於三軍一隊有什麼其他的安排?部長"},{"start":10348.485,"end":10372.434,"text":"好 謝謝這個問題就是其實關於三菁儀隊要離開堂體之後他要用什麼方式操練這件事情我們其實非常慎重的已經跟國防部開過很多次會議然後那個路線怎麼走要考慮到那個本身這些軍人的方便還有觀光客的方便還有他要用什麼方式在"},{"start":10373.214,"end":10396.609,"text":"離開團體之後他有什麼理由在外面操演等等他都是一個非常慎重的儀式但是我可以跟委員講就是文化部的態度非常清楚因為我們在一年前就已經設定一個這個中正經濟團轉型條例的一定要做的幾個動作包括去除威權去除個人崇拜"},{"start":10397.449,"end":10397.549,"text":"主席"},{"start":10413.526,"end":10426.331,"text":"今天早上推動轉型正義會報了小組成員有跟我們辦公室透露我們文化部的最新規劃就如同這個圖一樣那我想堂體不再設置這個禮賓執行的衛紹操演會"},{"start":10430.512,"end":10448.79,"text":"移到戶外來進行．且比照中列詞的模式．予以就取消勤務我想這個規劃看起來還蠻清楚的那我是困惑的是說那既然文化部是主管機關．而且早就規劃好了那為什麼還要推給行政院推動轉型正義匯報來做同意"},{"start":10452.453,"end":10466.203,"text":"據中正紀念堂轉型推動專案小組他們其實也早在去年就已經對於儀隊的撤離做成決議所以我想請部長說明說文化部對於這樣的"},{"start":10468.825,"end":10479.94,"text":"規劃那你們未來就是真的還要再送所謂的轉型匯報嗎那還是說你們自己就可以來決定這件事情然後來交代國防部去實施"},{"start":10483.167,"end":10508.25,"text":"這個路線連我都沒有清楚我覺得可能是裡面有些人的想法像這個路線我是文化部長我都不知道這是最後定案這或許是規劃是規劃它可能是規劃之一最新的規劃就是因為我希望這次做完之後就維持這個狀態不要再改來改去所以必須是要國安部本身也接受文化部也"},{"start":10509.051,"end":10509.091,"text":"主席"},{"start":10528.219,"end":10550.072,"text":"對 這個轉型正義會報其實在去年就是很多的成員都已經決議就是說所謂的這個三軍一隊居使是要撤離堂體這件事情那所以這個已經是決議的事情沒有被決議好像在一年前有這個決議然後半年後沒有結論可見這件事情是非常難的他決議後很難執行所以經過兩次會議"},{"start":10556.946,"end":10559.798,"text":"我自己去翻閱上一次會議是沒有結論"},{"start":10561.468,"end":10588.187,"text":"上一次會議沒有結論到了我們開始國防部表達說他有不堅持的一個可能的時候我們才可能往下做所以我是非常感謝國防部說他們不堅持了給了我們文化部一個可能性那這個過程中我們其實來來回回開了很多次會路線怎麼走推翻了再改過來其實就表示我們真的要做了但是又希望做到一個大家都能比較能接受的"},{"start":10588.683,"end":10603.844,"text":"好,那就是到9月份送轉型這一位報告．也許不用到9月啦因為我心裡也蠻急的因為這樣的題目你如果一直講但是又沒有做會引起更大的一個反彈所以我心裡面會希望越快越好"},{"start":10604.805,"end":10628.067,"text":"我贊成部長這樣講因為說真的這個轉型正義匯報的成員到8月就已經到期那9月是一個新的成員我們過去都是這些舊的成員在討論這件事情最清楚所以如果說這件事情拖好9月讓新的成員去決定那我看可能所以還是儘快最好我會儘快"},{"start":10630.669,"end":10644.457,"text":"另外我們回到今天的專報主題文資修復臺南火車站原本預計今年的6月要辦理新的修復工程的發包那預計2025年底要完工"},{"start":10645.618,"end":10661.931,"text":"目前部長不曉得進度如何那再來就是說那如果沒有辦法如期發包那到底困境在哪裡那有信心在2025完工嗎因為這件事情拖很久那如果遲遲沒有辦法辦理建築師的這個設計、建造或者營造廠的這個發包那最後"},{"start":10667.555,"end":10687.283,"text":"文化部有打算要接手嗎?因為現在是目前都是台鐵的事可是台鐵對於文資修復真的很外行那所以這件事情要如何處理?部長因為文資修復是一個非常重要的事情因為他修復的那個能力還有能不能回到原來那個樣子其實不能夠很草率的做所以會事實上有那個"},{"start":10688.063,"end":10696.47,"text":"委員我先提一下這個案子我們文化部從他停工到現在在行政的協調還有這個專業的諮詢還有我們這個行政的協處上面我們盡了很大的力量那尤其像上個月我們就有兩次找了專家學者現行他現在的問題就是第一個他結算的部分"},{"start":10717.247,"end":10738.538,"text":"有送到文化部的審議會裡面審議會還有一些意見要退請他再修正另外我們也在上個月有找了專家學者現勘之後給他建議希望他能夠先提出修復的原則還有一些怎麼樣進行的方案也都在持續進行的確是比較慢因為這種事情只要是終止結束契約之後後面的程序比較冗長我們一定會盡全力來協助"},{"start":10741.979,"end":10761.732,"text":"實際上關於台南火車站的修復狀況我也跟建築師公會做過很多的討論那建築師都認為其實增結的點還是在所謂修復人才真的不夠那我想不僅修復人才不夠整個的契約也應該合理化去年11月2號本席有跟史哲部長在教育委員會討論過這個問題公共工程技術服務契約的範本"},{"start":10767.316,"end":10789.572,"text":"本來是採用總包價法在這個文資修復案件中會造成很多的履約爭議那使則部長當時有說文化部對這項問題是有意識的那所以他認為文資修復工作就如同局長剛剛講的變數很大那無法一開始就精準的估量那通常是在進行中才發現說這個設計要改"},{"start":10791.713,"end":10792.274,"text":"請局長回答"},{"start":10818.459,"end":10841.096,"text":"總包價法,我們在去年10月已經召開會議,邀請了全國建築師公會,還有各縣市政府,還有委員辦公室,您的同仁也有去。大家後來發覺說,總包價法,有一些建築師公會原來想要用建造百分比法,但是大家覺得有的時候建造百分比法比總包價法建築師拿到的金錢還要少。"},{"start":10841.816,"end":10860.505,"text":"後來我們在今年2月也邀集全國建築師公會也在商議就照現有的工程會的契約範本裡面增訂經費表的範本用這種方式這種方式我們已經有把這個草案在4月份已經提供給全國建築師公會參考"},{"start":10862.346,"end":10862.646,"text":"我想談到文資修復的建築師的人才不足"},{"start":10878.838,"end":10879.018,"text":"文化部議員"},{"start":10909.259,"end":10911,"text":"上述政策預計會辦理多少年,未來會常態性推動嗎?"},{"start":10934.83,"end":10936.852,"text":"我想文資修復建築師就是要鼓勵年輕人來投入"},{"start":10954.369,"end":10970.51,"text":"在這裡我也有個倡議就是說希望文化部來支持那就是修正這個古蹟修復及再利用辦法第19條我們明定領有建築師執照並且在古蹟修復設計及建造培訓班受過培訓的"},{"start":10971.351,"end":10996.783,"text":"人員就可以進行所謂的歷史建築啊紀念建築以及文化景觀的修復及再利用可以這樣來處理嗎因為現在的規定是你有國定古蹟的這個資格才可以修這個歷史建築那當然修歷史建築是不需要任何的資格可是地方政府都會害怕所以就會還是都會有資格的人才會"},{"start":10998.764,"end":11024.422,"text":"讓他能來招標那可是問題卡在這樣子的話就會一直延宕那所有發報常常發報不出去所以如果說有參加這個培訓班的人是不是就可以來進行這個修復資格是這點沒有問題因為我們也看到那個嚴重性所以我們就在未來我們會朝著比如說將士分級制然後他也不一定要做到有執照那個程度他就可以投入這個現場因為我們"},{"start":11026.423,"end":11041.114,"text":"後來了解現場也有蠻多人沒有執照他會做所以這些問題我們文資局都掌握得很清楚所以委員你剛才講這條就是我們未來會一定會往這邊方向去修法的好"},{"start":11041.414,"end":11041.674,"text":"表演者上台"},{"start":11062.25,"end":11083.8,"text":"第一次麥克風出現問題已經很扯可是換過之後居然還沒有聲音我想流行音樂這種盛世發生這種低級錯誤那中段歌手的表演整段重來我覺得這個很多音樂人看了都很心痛那也覺得丟盡了台灣身為科技大國的這個國家顏面部長我想這一次的金曲獎"},{"start":11085.08,"end":11103.596,"text":"陳英工程設備的負責公司據很多音樂人反映說無論是器材的更新保養或者技術人員過去都出現很多的問題這並不是這一次金曲榜才出包他們早在業界就被大家頭痛許久"},{"start":11104.356,"end":11133.425,"text":"所以我想說是不是要有實質的改革作為那特別是我在這邊再強調一下這一次我們委託這個所謂的穩利音響它以前是一個非常大的廠商那幾十年過去了他們確實對他們的器材也好對他們技術也好技術人才也好都沒有做一些更新或所以他們很多技術人才都流失所以他們品質的維持已經是沒有辦法可是為什麼還是會標到案因為他們都用低價去標到"},{"start":11134.385,"end":11148.095,"text":"可是你看接了案子然後搞砸了所以我覺得這個事情可能要再好好的做檢討那是不是我們要要求這整個業界要針對這個事情我覺得這個事情出包確實是很大的遺憾"},{"start":11152.267,"end":11152.387,"text":"主席"},{"start":11185.669,"end":11187.19,"text":"陳秀寶委員蔡英文總統曾經說過如果沒有當年的823的勝利就沒有今天的台灣請問部長您肯定這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":11212.98,"end":11239.426,"text":"當然當然張嘉安也更還原了1958年八二三炮戰的歷史是因為台灣美國及日本聯合對抗共軍來取得勝利本席認為說歷史可以原諒但是不可以忘記當我們持續的努力還原歷史的真相推動轉型正義祈願我們台灣世世代代的子民不但要了解真實的歷史更要彰顯民主自由高舉人權正義因為這是台灣人堅定的信仰也是台灣人的根本"},{"start":11240.006,"end":11254.566,"text":"但是前幾天本席看到一則新聞覺得很難過也非常的擔心曾經參與戰役的這個唯一現存的工訓艦就是中海軍艦那長期閒置在其境的碼頭"},{"start":11255.527,"end":11262.249,"text":"在各方的爭取下,文化部司機有指定中海建設重要的穀物海軍並且也編列了7200萬維護及調查的經費但是國防部在上週的商力院提交的預算解凍報告顯示說,海軍說"},{"start":11270.652,"end":11287.949,"text":"如果仍然沒有地方政府接管、接收、活化再利用將請文化部解除中海建的古物列管我想請教部長這是我們文資保存的做法嗎本席真的很擔心文化部是可以這樣做會這樣子做你們真的會解除列管嗎不會不會"},{"start":11291.137,"end":11313.069,"text":"因為其實對於我們過去這些文物的保存我們一直覺得說我們有把它指定了之後但是後續到底我們如何實質的落實在這些文物保存上面其實很多民眾都非常的關心那中海建未來如果被拆除不但是浪費執行的預算也是顯示文化部我們沒有做文資保存的決心"},{"start":11313.669,"end":11314.05,"text":"部長您說是,一定會"},{"start":11325.188,"end":11350.629,"text":"那有沒有你們有沒有一個怎樣的期程自己本身的規劃期程我想問一下這個文資局局長在過程當中我們都是跟海軍也都保持密切的包括在經費的補助上面也都有編列一定的預算那未來就是後續海軍一定要拿起他負責依照文資法裡面他是所有人必須要負起這個保存修復的責任文化部會在這個相關專業"},{"start":11351.63,"end":11352.951,"text":"文化資產保存法實施40多年來民間甚至是戲稱說文化資產是修一個壞一個"},{"start":11376.269,"end":11401.596,"text":"有時候甚至會出現說專業者之間會互相批評因為大家的論點或想法是不太一樣那有一些主持修復的專家官員們會把提供意見的民眾視為是妨礙修復的鬧事者所以彼此之間會形成對立跟對抗那我想請教部長您真的覺得說對文資修復有意見的民間人士真的一定是恐怖的鬧事者嗎"},{"start":11402.076,"end":11405.057,"text":"對於文資修復的這些相關的意見我們去整合它去充分溝通不是我們文字局本來就應該要做的嗎?"},{"start":11418.482,"end":11444.657,"text":"是委員你問的問題非常好有兩個層面其實早期台灣比較沒有文資概念的時候都是靠少數人站出來去呼籲說比如說我們現在看到台北好多那個那個幾個最大的園區都是靠少數人提出來的因為當時沒有文資概念所以第一個層面我們不能夠忽略所有對文資有研究的人的意見第二個層面就是"},{"start":11445.802,"end":11464.876,"text":"如果換到文化部去做這些事情的時候我們就碰到有一些法律問題因為他不會那麼單純的只要保留他可能有都更的問題他有那個土地的問題還有這個擁有人的問題所以我們會去盡量溝通是我們的責任所以我不會認為他們是恐怖分子"},{"start":11468.039,"end":11488.526,"text":"謝謝部長李念這樣子肯定就是說願意提供相關訊息相關資料相關意見人其實對於文資保存他就是有這樣的關心而且可能有他本身有這樣的記憶或有這樣子的意見可以來提供我們來協助文資的修復但本席剛有提到就是說充分的溝通其實就是文資局這邊本來就應該要做的"},{"start":11489.386,"end":11509.163,"text":"文化資產的再利用有時候會面臨一些功能性的需求要進行調整那目的就是為了讓建權軟硬體相關的功能讓建築能夠更符合現代需求但建築物本身的新建政見改建修繕遷移或是拆除或其他外型內部的變更都是經過主管機關的審查同意之後才會辦理"},{"start":11512.546,"end":11530.661,"text":"但是看一下最近的例子臺中的歷史建築大屯俊藝所跟臺北的國立歷史博物館在修站工程中明明也經過了相關的文資的審議但是還是遭受爭議還有就是剛才有多位委員非常關心的我們鹿港龍山市的這個修復的這個爭議"},{"start":11532.543,"end":11553.016,"text":"我公司在我們教育委員會質詢追蹤關於龍山市這個修復也追蹤了很多次那整個工程的延宕在鹿港人眼中看起來是非常的焦急因為我們意見無法整合那不管是地方的意見沒有辦法進來或是說得標廠商他受到的為難跟委屈這個部分我們都沒有妥善的處理所以這邊我想請教"},{"start":11554.577,"end":11577.838,"text":"在文化資產保存的這個過程裡面如何能夠做到即使不能人人滿意但是都可以接受文化部在這麼多次的爭議之後有沒有正視這個問題你們如何來處理因為這個標準真的很難定比如說你修到的程度地方不滿意可是我們覺得又符合這個這個標準很難定我想是不是可以請文字局的局長回答好 局長"},{"start":11579.298,"end":11581.959,"text":"所以我會一直強調就是意見的整合跟充分溝通充分溝通真的真的非常的重要"},{"start":11599.366,"end":11612.06,"text":"那這個部分我也希望說你們在這麼多次的經驗之後呢我們面對這樣子的文資的這個保存的部分在會議上充分溝通的重要性你們要去正視而且將來遇到這樣的問題都一定要廣納各方的意見那接下來我想請教部長"},{"start":11617.145,"end":11635.432,"text":"文化部說根據產業調查研究的成果．在廣州產生學院的意見．2022年以高於一般公共工程的工匠薪資．制定傳統匠師每日最低薪資參考基準是3922元．使第一線的傳統匠師受重視有使命感．並希望吸引更多的年輕人．優秀的傳統匠師來投入這個領域"},{"start":11639.614,"end":11651.687,"text":"但是我想請教部長在所有文資修復的案件中每天最低薪資的參考基準傳統教師是不是真的都可以領導?文化部有沒有認真的去查核過?得標的廠商是不是真的都照規定?"},{"start":11654.22,"end":11672.211,"text":"我們也知道這個問題因為最低薪資3922可是他一個禮拜只工作兩三天我們在今年年底會讓這個東西落實到讓他們可以領到甚至於我們最近在研擬就是薪資的提高還有分級制因為這個問題我們文化部有警覺到非常嚴重"},{"start":11673.36,"end":11689.188,"text":"對,因為其實我看了一下你們的招標規範其實沒有辦法嚇阻所謂借牌登記的疑慮那我們要保障傳統教師每天有最低薪資的基準其實很難達成所以我希望說文化部這邊你們對這個事情既然你已經有感受到說其實這個是有問題的"},{"start":11691.189,"end":11706.479,"text":"你們也要研議一個相關的方案來真正的落實來保障這些傳統的將士而且呢本席認為說除了薪資之外讓第一線的傳統將士感受到被重視有使命感那年輕的人才願意投入呢也應該有一些相對的一些獎勵一些鼓勵那相對說我們台灣技職教育它有全國技能競賽"},{"start":11712.202,"end":11716.827,"text":"文資修復的部分文化部有沒有辦法研議傳統匠師的競技競賽活動或者一些相關的一些讓一些願意投入的這些傳統匠師他們能夠靠著自己的技能靠著自己的技術來取得這樣子的榮耀有沒有辦法研議有相關的"},{"start":11734.844,"end":11759.605,"text":"我們正在做就是要把優良傳統匠師納入國家文化資產保存的獎項提高他的尊榮感因為我們也辦理修復技術全國技能大賽吸引年輕人投入非常高興委員提這些事剛好就是我們正在做的因為我們覺得年輕人如果能夠投入這個行業讓他薪水夠他生活讓他有榮耀感"},{"start":11760.205,"end":11763.626,"text":"這是非常重要的部長您也點出了足夠的薪資來維持他的生活之外他本身對這一份工作是有使命的是有榮耀感的因為其實傳統教師的培育養成對我們整個的文資修復的重要性我想你們都知道我們需要有這樣的人才"},{"start":11779.81,"end":11802.069,"text":"而且隨著時間的推移需要修復的這些保存的穀物、文物越來越多也越來越急迫所以對於這個國立人才這個部分也希望文化部這邊能夠再多做努力那接下來我想請教一下關於國立台灣大學創立近百年但是被我們監委翻訊息調查的這個報告"},{"start":11803.911,"end":11806.993,"text":"他調查發現說臺大未有效編文化資產分級分類分級修復的整體藍圖那文化資產的疲惫嚴重公有文化資產容積轉移轉的規制尚未健全而且其中臺大一號館的屋齡達92年"},{"start":11821.741,"end":11839.736,"text":"雖然是在2002年有列冊追蹤．但是沒有審慎的修繕．已經喊請臺大及文化部檢討改進．那這邊我要請教部長．文化部如何明確的規範呢．文資執行的事項．並且建立通報系統．讓公有的建造物的所有或管理單位有所平一還是局長您要回答"},{"start":11844.684,"end":11846.946,"text":"我們是有這樣子的程序沒錯但是我們如何明確的規範或者說如何落實這些相關的通報機制"},{"start":11864.818,"end":11893.001,"text":"有的 這個現在目前一個我們現在跟各縣市政府也已經也去跟他們的有進行的一些聯繫要建立一些尤其是這個尤其所謂的所謂的大家提到就會有誤猜的方式這種可能就是在地方縣市地方應該要有一個橫向聯繫所以文資局現在正在做正在跟地方政府這個聯繫中那這個部分我也請你如果有一定的進度的時候你一份報告給我辦公室好嗎可以好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":11895.469,"end":11910.4,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝秀邦委員部長請回我接下來請吳春成委員我知道我知道好 有請這個部長好 有請部長吳委員你好那個部長好那個"},{"start":11929.186,"end":11933.738,"text":"這個部長看到我今天這個標題你有什麼感想?"},{"start":11937.27,"end":11960.338,"text":"文化亂了套我覺得蠻容易亂了套還容易亂套因為我覺得文化是一個太複雜的一個太複雜的問題那個大家都在談經期講但是我也有出席啦去看啦但是我覺得辦的事情還是主辦單位還是很辛苦啦大家這個但是我現在舉這個"},{"start":11962.538,"end":11979.4,"text":"那天晚上有位大陸藝人高潔講了一句大家晚上好然後就被出征了這個部長覺得這是這樣子是什麼回事"},{"start":11980.482,"end":12003.619,"text":"我覺得我跟高杰還蠻熟的他是台灣藝人專門演黑道他那天講大家晚上好的時候我也有一點覺得他怎麼會講這個因為他以前是跟我們那個時代的人那個時代真的不會講大家晚上好可見的這個語言的傳播透過網路他其實很嚴重那至於你說他講這個對不對我覺得只有一種"},{"start":12004.74,"end":12029.628,"text":"聽得舒不舒服感覺好不好而已我覺得好像沒有對不對啦因為語言這個東西我上次也講過這也是一個問題啦這也是一個問題人都會這樣子嘛你到一個地方開久了你就會有那些的口音啦你會有那些口音啦但是我們現在好像把這些因為這都是中文很容易這樣子混的大家會不會搞得太緊張了"},{"start":12031.694,"end":12039.462,"text":"問候一下也需要出征嗎?你覺得台灣是怎麼回事?台灣的文化是哪裡出問題?這個部分我覺得"},{"start":12043.837,"end":12060.025,"text":"我覺得台灣某方面大家好像蠻對立的就是那個對立到我覺得蠻讓別人不太好會嚇一跳的結果就像我這次進去講如果是一個天安門事件在台灣現在講話很緊張你知道嗎真的是講話我覺得不是好現象對很緊張我覺得我們"},{"start":12067.589,"end":12084.755,"text":"民主運動當中政治是戒嚴的但是現在變成文化戒嚴文化戒嚴我們真的是一個文化戒嚴的國家動不動就思想犯就出征人家就質疑忠誠質疑對方的忠誠包括你講的語言包括你講的台灣這個"},{"start":12086.075,"end":12110.667,"text":"台灣是一個文化大國耶台灣是一個充滿本來文化是我們的優勢耶現在文化互相殘殺然後互相指責對方互相戴帽子這文化部應該要好好來想辦法解決這個問題啦我不是說這是文化部的問題啦但是要解決當然還是要靠文化部啦文化部絕對不能在天流家畜啦然後再來看"},{"start":12112.643,"end":12138.431,"text":"這裡是哪裡 這不是日本喔 這台灣喔我們台灣每次到溫泉祭的時候喔 那個意象表演一定會穿和服 穿彩目機 對不對然後跳了這些這是什麼 這個魅力嗎還是說溫泉只能是有日本的文化台灣溫泉這麼的發達為什麼不能有台灣自己的概念"},{"start":12140.731,"end":12141.615,"text":"這個問題我覺得問得很好"},{"start":12144.942,"end":12166.617,"text":"臺灣是一個被動的在這個這個歷史上都是被動的被別人統治那只要統治50年他的文化就進來了包括語言包括服裝包括一切還有現在是世界化大家年輕人是看看網路看日劇看韓劇他會朝著流行去這件事情說起來是蠻複雜的"},{"start":12175.123,"end":12177.225,"text":"這是什麼?文化是這樣的選擇性跟對立嗎?"},{"start":12181.058,"end":12205.072,"text":"您的問題非常好因為我覺得文化基本上應該是認同吧就是譬如說我認同這個東西我就覺得它非常好我不認同它我就覺得非常不好所以我覺得現在這樣子啦我自己的比如說像日本啦日本的是葫蘆吞草的文化啦它不管像我們現在包括哇你用這個比如說大魚治水啦他們在問說大魚是誰啦"},{"start":12207.834,"end":12232.273,"text":"大禹如果你不知道這個故事你講這個成語就沒意義嘛所以當他在運用這語言的時候一定要了解他的歷史那我們現在在排除他的歷史的時候連我們的語言都會被排除就會造成很多的衝突啦那所以呢通常怎麼處理這種文化問題像日本他就是土藻他不管是哪一國的文化他都混混吞藻吞下去"},{"start":12233.354,"end":12244.606,"text":"不用擔心這種事情文化呢會自己消化消化適合庶民生活會被留下來有的就會被排泄掉"},{"start":12245.93,"end":12272.658,"text":"他自然會這樣子我們國家不要那麼的緊張好不好我很怕什麼文化入侵很大什麼所以這邊要戒嚴這邊要擋住門這邊要講這話然後很多的事情包容一個多元文化臺灣應該包容多元文化我不管是怎麼樣文化特別跟我們極大關係這麼密切的中文文化你如果再去排擠它的話稍微一個字眼的話我們自己會自己會業業那個啦好"},{"start":12275.342,"end":12275.853,"text":"接下來呢"},{"start":12278.419,"end":12279.479,"text":"臺灣的多元文化在消失"},{"start":12307.618,"end":12317.81,"text":"人家不把我們看在眼裡了啦台灣已經變成文化小國了啦我們本來是一個文化大國變成文化小國啦這是怎麼造成的"},{"start":12318.939,"end":12347.822,"text":"部長你覺得我覺得我們自己本身忽略了自己文化的重要還有在政策上比韓國晚了覺醒韓國從1998年開始金大中上台他就知道文化立國直接立法在法律上直接立法投入很多的錢那是1998年到了2000年之後韓流就起來了然後2003年有一個導演叫李昌東被聘為文化部長"},{"start":12348.602,"end":12377.496,"text":"在他手上把整個行流做起來這個部長我覺得我們這個當然不能透露我們是自己就是文化政治化文化為政治服務政治大力的干預到過去當國民黨時代的時候當然是文化的民進黨起來的時候也是一樣統治文化然後排組其他都互相的對立了其實這個搞的其實這才是最大根本原因以前也沒有說政府這麼多的補助現在也沒有說比以前補助的少以前為什麼這麼的"},{"start":12378.416,"end":12392.652,"text":"現在不僅不補助 現在還會追殺你知道嗎現在還會追殺異己耶這才是文化墮落最大的原因啦文化墮落最大的原因只容許跟自己意識概念相同的文化"},{"start":12393.493,"end":12419.113,"text":"主促這種狹隘的文化然後對包括我們現在大家推崇原住民我也非常推崇原住民你知道我們在國際大看板當中在做台灣的介紹看板都有很多原住民的圖示所以很多國際有人以為我們是非洲國家你知道嗎以為台灣的意向就是原住民你知道就是但是為什麼因為台灣找不到自己現在的用原住民最安全"},{"start":12420.554,"end":12429.061,"text":"原住民是最安全的意象你用任何的圖像下來都會引起內部的一種糾紛包括以前小學踢踐子都會被指證這個媚中一幫大隊隨便的亂指責這一點"},{"start":12438.408,"end":12453.23,"text":"這一點我很期待因為我知道你是一個文化人 真正的文化人就給我們委員解釋一下文化部差不多至少這10年他在補助的時候他不會看這個他請來一群委員完全不會看這個"},{"start":12454.432,"end":12454.592,"text":"委員相信我們"},{"start":12478.713,"end":12492.449,"text":"我相信你啦我相信你是一個文化人我們繼續在這方面努力啦來端正這個給文化人尊嚴給文化人台灣真的很可惜台灣是一個文化非常文化跟金融一樣"},{"start":12493.57,"end":12495.611,"text":"臺灣要有文化包容度、文化的吸引力"},{"start":12527.791,"end":12530.332,"text":"主席有請部長"},{"start":12549.543,"end":12573.862,"text":"議長委員好 我們又見面了對 部長好 謝謝我們今天談文化資產保存因為我們板橋有林家花園應該是國定古蹟最近因為那個菜刀坊零四零三地震之後有毀損然後地方政府有跟中央申請補助不知道下來沒有核准啊核准多少錢核准多少錢 我想知不清我自己計算回答一下"},{"start":12575.93,"end":12589.628,"text":"委員我們再查一下因為我們才發生在第一週我們才去看這個會全額補助嘛對不對我們那個速度可不可以快一點好不好因為這個林家花園是我們板橋很重要的地標"},{"start":12591.109,"end":12591.589,"text":"文化資產保存法"},{"start":12613.557,"end":12633.407,"text":"文化資產它被提報它被提報成為要變成文化資產的時候它的保存維護修繕都要仰賴文化部所給的B類補助嘛對不對但是B類補助是不是預算有限所以導致於說很多補助它沒辦法及時也沒辦法達到比如說"},{"start":12634.668,"end":12652.482,"text":"相當的額度所以就會造成一個狀況就是他那個文化資產因為沒有辦法及時修繕造成他的價值不斷的減損那這個問題其實蠻嚴重的那我不知道說文化部有沒有想要針對這個問題做提出一些對岸策略出來有沒有"},{"start":12654.465,"end":12680.418,"text":"請文字局局長回答業務委員第一個我們當然是積極的爭取預算像跟誰爭取跟像行政院像我們我剛才提到的全國的古蹟歷史建築的修補助的一些修復經費大概都是我們有一個忠誠計畫叫做歷史與文化資產維護發展計畫的忠誠計畫已經18年了今年第19年都是靠這個計畫去年在第5期6年計畫不用講那麼細因為我們沒有那麼多時間所以"},{"start":12681.318,"end":12708.061,"text":"我只是跟你講問題很嚴重啦是是 了解完全了解我們不然取高可寡啦講的好像文化資產我們都重視但實際上在地方很多破損要申請補助拿不到嘛然後他他不斷的毀損價值遞減你到時候要修繕的時候你要花更多的錢啊所以這部分我覺得是比較急的問題要解決第二個問題是很多我們的民眾啊他們家的家產啊如果被劃定為文化資產的時候其實都不高興"},{"start":12709.076,"end":12735.292,"text":"你有發現這件事嗎?很少人是說我很高興我們家被化文化資產主要就是給的獎勵太少了嘛那給的獎勵少又影響到他去處分這個財產嘛所以他們都不高興那常常在地方就造成很多對立啊那這個部分我不曉得能不能解決比如說在修法或者是在給相關的獎勵方面可以多一點讓他覺得做這個事情很好願意配合 有可能嘛"},{"start":12737.708,"end":12761.751,"text":"好 委員就是現有的話我們有一些獎勵措施這不夠啊對 也不夠你有沒有去了解一下那些被列為文化資產的那些人他們的心情如何是 委員講的的確是事實那你們都視而不見啊我想我們現在要這是我長期觀察到的問題啦剛好今天是這個主題我就反映給你們我希望說不管是在補助的額度跟速度"},{"start":12762.672,"end":12776.564,"text":"還有包括就是有人如果他的家產被劃為文化資產相對應的獎勵我覺得一定要提高啦不然就是取高合寡講得好像講得很厲害的樣子我們很重視實際上更無法落實"},{"start":12777.985,"end":12784.229,"text":"接下來我要來關心一下黃牛票的事張學友演唱會剛結束劉德娃又要來了張學友那時候的票很多人都很多抱怨因為黃牛的問題"},{"start":12801.428,"end":12808.082,"text":"我上次也關心過 文化部因為打黃牛成立了一個打黃牛辦公室10個月花了800萬"},{"start":12810.016,"end":12831.573,"text":"當時是由常會律師事務所得標那計畫主持人叫袁秀慧他的顧問叫蘇孔志後來我們有跟你們調資料你們有給我看他因為我非常好奇為什麼打黃牛要成立一個黃牛辦公室啊所以八百萬怎麼分配呢我就看了一下結果發現真的很奇怪這個案子"},{"start":12832.273,"end":12857.406,"text":"第一 光人力 包括計畫主持人 協同主持人 專案經理 還有辦公室督導加上辦公室的人員五位 成立這個辦公室有九個人就是說文化部為了打黃流 成立一個打黃流國家隊然後另外呢 又請了九個人來做這個事情第二 非常就是說你已經請了人 然後那些人的業務範圍內的工作還要另外再付他錢"},{"start":12858.775,"end":12874.698,"text":"舉例來講 我有一個紅色畫起來叫做客訴報表會診他每個月他要出一個民眾打來的客訴的報表可能是一個Excel你一個月還要給他3萬塊阿我不是已經請人來做這個事了嗎我還要他做的事情我還要額外給他錢"},{"start":12875.899,"end":12897.915,"text":"好比說我今天請了一個國會助理我一個月給他五萬結果他每次幫我寫質詢稿還要給我案件記酬這感覺非常不合理啊然後另外我們再來看什麼電腦處理費裡面還有一個叫電腦使用時間費就是說欸我們已經給了他這個錢了但是呢他只要有用到他辦公室電腦我另外還要再給錢"},{"start":12899.778,"end":12923.816,"text":"還有付一個瓷片的費用我不知道我們這個年代還有人在用瓷片也是讓我覺得很奇怪那另外還有一個行政管理費就已經付錢給他們那麼多的薪水了然後還要再給他行政管理費所以這個預算的編列我真的覺得非常奇怪剛剛我們在講文化資產保護都說沒錢可是打黃牛的錢是可以這樣隨便給"},{"start":12925.765,"end":12951.208,"text":"那我不知道部長你這樣乍看之下你覺得有沒有很奇怪?乍看?對,乍看有沒有很奇怪?或者是我剛剛聽我這樣講完我請一個助理然後我那個助理幫我寫一個諮詢稿還要另外跟我收錢或者是他幫我準備一些PP PowerPoint還要跟我收錢就會合理嗎?我覺得我請次長回答好不好?等一下部長你回答啦好不好?"},{"start":12952.478,"end":12952.758,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12970.522,"end":12988.188,"text":"部長你沒關係你先稍微看一下後面還有其他資料我秀一下那這個標案的人全部都綠油油比如說這個顧問蘇孔志他就是民進黨的政策會副執行長之前的然後袁常惠律師以前是也是這個謝長廷的子弟兵"},{"start":12988.868,"end":12989.008,"text":"主席"},{"start":13008.205,"end":13022.25,"text":"這個...然後我們辦公室也有跟你們去要這個案子的結案報告結案報告就是說他到底打了多少黃牛多少黃牛是因為他的關係被抓到然後讓很多本來買不到張學友票的人買到了我看不到這個結案報告書"},{"start":13024.315,"end":13027.656,"text":"原秀會是綠油油這件事我稍微給我一點機會假如我沒有記錯他是柯文哲時代法律的那個主管"},{"start":13040.842,"end":13067.039,"text":"那也有可能現在跟柯文哲不好啦但是他的現在律師事務所上面的網站是講說他跟謝長廷很好其實我覺得我們台灣最糟糕就是把一個人貼標籤說他是綠還是藍還是白這是他標榜的他標榜的他標榜如果說因為我也很少看到律師事務所他的訴求是他是綠油油我也沒看過但他的網站上就是這樣我印象中他應該"},{"start":13067.739,"end":13068.66,"text":"黃牛專案防制人力勞務採購黃牛專案防制人力勞務採購"},{"start":13089.838,"end":13114.904,"text":"又來做這個黃牛專案防治人力勞務採購今天沒有時間我先把這些問題都點出來你事後再給我報告然後再來我們來看今年因為剛剛那個案子原常會律師事務所的案子是10個月800萬今年呢我們把那個標案延長了變成一年半同樣的標案打黃牛國家隊的案子把它變成一年半然後費用也增加變1500萬"},{"start":13116.624,"end":13121.345,"text":"那 有人跟我講說得標廠商叫普華律師事務所是嗎是普華嗎"},{"start":13123.96,"end":13152.619,"text":"是普華嘛對普華裡面有一個合夥人叫賴芳玉只是跟民進黨很多立委是好朋友那再來我們來看一下普華最近的案子他得到113年到114年18個月1500萬的打黃牛辦公室然後他112年也有得到文化部一個法律諮詢服務案148萬這讓我覺得非常奇怪你知道嗎就是我們已經"},{"start":13154.139,"end":13180.914,"text":"為了我們已經有了這個法律諮詢的服務案然後我們打黃油又要再找別的律師來諮詢這已經有一個統整的法律諮詢案然後針對特定項目又要再委託別的法律顧問來諮詢我覺得文化部是不是真的錢很多如果錢真的這麼多的話可不可以把一部分的錢撥到文化資產那邊去就是說我們現在文化資產很缺費用"},{"start":13182.177,"end":13200.062,"text":"因為今天時間關係,我現在把這些問題點出來,就像說事後部長可不可以了解一下,因為你也是剛上任嘛,了解一下,因為感覺文化部錢真的非常多,可以這樣花的很多啦,我覺得這些就很多,我剛剛隨便念就很多嘛,"},{"start":13200.862,"end":13202.023,"text":"今天由委員提出臨時提案一案請宣讀"},{"start":13230.069,"end":13247.9,"text":"本屆金曲獎表演者麥克風無聲事件引發各界嘩然不僅傷害流行音樂聲勢金曲獎聲譽亦丟盡臺灣作為科技大國之國家顏面更有音樂人反映成因工程設備負責公司已非首次出包無論是器材的更新保養"},{"start":13248.8,"end":13272.739,"text":"又或者技術人才品質皆遭業界質疑．文化部應於一個月內以書面形式．對立法院教育及文化委員會提出報告．說明實質改革作為．以使對經取獎承辦單位．與相關廠商之審查標準得以提升．透露私同經濟整體作業．提案人林一景．連署人陳培宇．吳佩玉范雲軒的完畢"},{"start":13275.424,"end":13276.465,"text":"黃國昌委員"},{"start":13317.027,"end":13318.309,"text":"臺灣社會充滿了詐騙的事情"},{"start":13335.103,"end":13356.78,"text":"在這些詐騙集團的詐騙犯可以得逞的過程當中有一些不肖的媒體甚至是假冒的媒體扮演著推波助瀾的效果因為有很多人在一個新的所謂的虛擬貨幣或是交易平台剛上線的時候大家資訊不足"},{"start":13358.061,"end":13381.473,"text":"就開始去找有沒有這個虛擬貨幣或是這個平台相關的報導或者是新聞結果這些詐騙集團越搞越誇張越搞越誇張為了要在資訊上面讓更多的人受騙能夠上車他們自己在外面搞假的媒體公司"},{"start":13382.659,"end":13408.416,"text":"搞假的媒體公司是因為表面上是媒體公司實際上面看出來的新聞全部都是在幫這些詐騙集團promote出來的新聞這種假媒體公司一定要徹底掃蕩他已經成為整個社會的亂源了媒體不是文化部管的"},{"start":13409.266,"end":13418.852,"text":"我今天會提這個質詢是因為我看了我心裡很難過因為中央通訊社是我們國家的通訊社"},{"start":13420.154,"end":13448.868,"text":"中央社如果寫出來的東西成為詐騙集團犯罪計畫的一環的話這件事情很嚴重部長同不同意完全同意接下來的事情有一點複雜我簡單的跟部長講一下在媒體上面現在現實上已經造成了一堆人受害的王牌交易所王牌交易所的結構"},{"start":13450.861,"end":13470.147,"text":"兩個祖先 吸金用沒有流通性的虛擬貨幣 吸了二十幾億甚至去利用蓮池金色 這個宗教團體母女兩個人之間 用不法犯罪所得 層層的"},{"start":13472.248,"end":13487.725,"text":"成立了一堆人頭公司來幫忙洗錢那其中有一家公司我覺得很奇怪叫做移賺股份有限公司在檢察官偵辦整個犯罪的過程當中起訴的過程當中發現了"},{"start":13489.387,"end":13515.221,"text":"這一個人頭謝詩穎女性她現在正在被法院羈押當中她當人頭用不法犯罪所得用不法犯罪所得所成立的其中一家其中一家人頭公司是在整個犯罪集團當中的一環她公司登記的地址在三立集團的大樓裡面舊中路那個大樓的三樓"},{"start":13516.141,"end":13544.366,"text":"其中有40%的持股是三立集團下面的創造智能股份有限公司共同持有這個一賺股份有限公司這個一賺股份有限公司到底是在幹嘛的涉入整個詐欺的罪行扮演什麼角色還有帶檢察官進一步的釐清這個跟部長我今天要請教部長的事情一點關係都沒有但我要告訴部長的事情是什麼"},{"start":13546.301,"end":13566.746,"text":"裡面現在一樣同樣被起訴的兩位資深媒體人一位叫做江建良一位叫做李燕蘭他們兩個都涉入了整個詐騙集團的範圍當中那這兩位跟三立集團也有關係但這也不是我今天要跟部長講的重點但我要請部長看齁"},{"start":13568.226,"end":13597.144,"text":"他們的犯罪手法是什麼明明知道銷售沒有實際應用價值沒有實際價值的垃圾幣然後呢他們要鑄造NFT跟Shabob平台合作這個Shabob平台是這個詐欺犯的主弦整個犯罪結構當中其中的一環他騙大家什麼你買這個虛擬貨幣未來到這個Shabob平台上面有交換價值可以質押借款"},{"start":13597.924,"end":13622.673,"text":"但問題是什麼這個平台本身就是詐騙集團的一環我剛剛跟部長講的那個狀況我們現在這些詐騙集團厲害到什麼他去成立媒體公司叫做民生科技傳媒他上面怎麼講的Shabot NFT藝術平台上架然後可以怎麼樣成為治理代幣"},{"start":13624.386,"end":13641.919,"text":"治理代幣成為焦點在promote在promote整個詐騙集團不管是NFT還是剛剛我所講的那個shabot平台我把它圈起來部長您看一下這位記者徐維存這個徐維存這個徐維存"},{"start":13644.338,"end":13666.495,"text":"是一個假人根本不存在他所發的所有的稿子全部都是那詐騙集團寫的好最後一張slide是我今天要拜託部長回去請中央社徹查的為什麼因為在整個詐騙的進行過程當中來看一下我們的中央社2023年3月28號"},{"start":13669.148,"end":13689.974,"text":"2023年3月28號正是整個詐欺的範型最嚴重的時候最多人受害的時候我們的中央社發了什麼新聞創造智能與三立合作發行NFT首創影視娛樂通行證我不要造成任何誤會我今天沒有站在這邊指控"},{"start":13691.034,"end":13706.893,"text":"說三立是這個詐騙集團的議員沒有我沒有提出這樣的指控但請部長看最後一段這稿子是怎麼寫的對於NFT的流通性與保值創造智能此次與NFT平台Shabot合作"},{"start":13707.714,"end":13724.833,"text":"使用者可以在Shopbo平台直押NFT避免當NFT流通性枯竭時產生有含無適的風險最終目標是讓企業和品牌的NFT產生明確價值幫助使用者保值這一段描述"},{"start":13726.178,"end":13750.906,"text":"跟我們前面所講的詐騙集團在外面成立空殼公司用假的記者所發出的詐騙新聞稿的描述啊一模一樣小報平台就是這整個王牌交易所詐騙集團當中的一環我要請部長拜託回去徹查我們的國家通訊社中央社怎麼發這種新聞啊"},{"start":13753.806,"end":13781.704,"text":"怎麼發這種新聞啊在幫這個詐騙集團他們所promote負責拿來欺騙人的平台竟然在幫他們什麼用中央社的招牌在幫他們背書promote這是一件很嚴重的事情因為在檢察官起訴的犯罪事實裡這種假新聞稿已經成為詐騙檢察官起訴犯罪行為當中的一環了"},{"start":13784.107,"end":13803.184,"text":"背後這個假記者背後的人在寫稿的人也一起被起訴了但我真的很痛心的是你如果是那種莫名其妙的公司莫名其妙的記者寫的東西就算了這個是我們中央通訊社2023年3月28號的發稿現在整個王牌交易所全部"},{"start":13805.114,"end":13816.864,"text":"大部分的人被羈押的羈押 被起訴的起訴結果這個在幫這個已經被偵破的詐騙集團在Promote的新聞竟然還掛在我們中央社上面這個新聞到底怎麼出來的這是廣編嗎這個是收錢嗎還是有人委託"},{"start":13831.448,"end":13849.124,"text":"要中央社的記者看這種幫詐騙集團Promote的新聞部長可不可以承諾徹查沒有問題如果是涉及到跟文化部有關的中央社我來瞭解而且我們會這個新聞怎麼產製出來的是稿子誰提供的是這很嚴重欸"},{"start":13850.645,"end":13854.227,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員 部長請回我們接下來請范雲委員謝謝昭偉 有請部長"},{"start":13879.684,"end":13880.232,"text":"好 有請部長"},{"start":13885.812,"end":13904.505,"text":"報議員你好部長午安辛苦了因為剛剛已經很多人就是檢討了我們的金曲獎的頒獎而且我們今天已經有個臨時提案已經通過了所以我就不再多講那我本來是一周但我想配合大家那我還想再提一個就是除了小編剛剛吳佩儀委員有把小編就是這個絕對不是只是小編可以處理的因為就跟這次巴奈講的"},{"start":13912.571,"end":13924.438,"text":"音樂本身不是跟政治無關所以金曲獎的頒獎過去已經有非常多跟政治相關的議題所以我想那個SOP沒有執行真的應該要好好的檢討那怎麼看待金曲現場的這個小編的服務"},{"start":13928.9,"end":13948.124,"text":"另外我想我再補充一下當天的麥克風不是只有那個就是MC Hotdog上場的時候那整個高度都一直還好幾度遮掩了我們重要致詞人的臉部我在現場看到都覺得很尷尬所以這些檢討那就是也請都一併進入好嗎因為這是我們這麼重要的一個文化活動那當天現場我是覺得"},{"start":13952.265,"end":13952.765,"text":"文化部發言更謹慎"},{"start":13974.713,"end":13996.96,"text":"那就是我們剛剛部長有講到之前文化部說因為是國防部阻撓嘛那顧立雄部長我精彩知道是我們領域委員去質詢的就非常精彩的內容他已經說了可以不要在同項旁那再來就是文化部主管的事那可惜我們文化部次長的回應讓人感覺說"},{"start":13998.28,"end":14026.091,"text":"是說是跨部會活動不是單一部會說的算好像給人感覺一個怎麼又互踢皮球了所以我覺得那最近又有剛剛林經緯也有提到的就是行政院專界長轉型推動專案小組成員的發言說已經做出撤出的決議當然部長剛剛有澄清說您有看到這個記錄可是我的感覺是今天部長才有在現場把這個價值態度講得比較清楚"},{"start":14026.932,"end":14040.485,"text":"我之前也有質詢過說其實你們給我們教育委員的報告都已經講了中正紀念堂促轉會解散後文化部作為主責機關負責中正紀念堂轉型這個轉型當然是轉型正義的轉型"},{"start":14043.588,"end":14064.054,"text":"那可以理解因為前面有委員提到部長又講到歷史記憶的事情我是想找一個解套讓我們這條路走得更順我先請問部長部長你有沒有聽過你知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區我知道那它是哪裡您知道臺灣民主紀念園區對應該就是有好幾個地方所以部長顯然也不熟悉跟部長"},{"start":14074.562,"end":14102.977,"text":"這個名字沒有太流行吧就是說你把中文紀念場叫做臺灣民主園區的確是一般人不知道好一般人不知道但是部長您要知道啊為什麼因為中文紀念場有兩種文資身份2007年是國定的國定的就是登錄為國定的這個文資身份它的名稱就叫做臺灣民主紀念園區那部長您知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區是我們現在圖上的藍色塊還是粉紅色塊"},{"start":14104.285,"end":14104.305,"text":"藍色塊"},{"start":14106.072,"end":14134.465,"text":"那您就錯了那個藍色塊是台北市政府核定的那個可見大家都不了解台北市政府核定它是叫做市定文化景觀然後呢中間的粉紅色是台灣民主紀念園區那最核心那個堂體深藍的那您知不知道有被哪一塊框頂有被我們台灣民主紀念園區框頂嗎"},{"start":14138.576,"end":14164.451,"text":"這是已經被定為國境古蹟吧這一塊好那沒關係喔因為時間喔這個堂體喔非常有意思的兩塊都有框定就台北市喔框定的市立文化景觀是包最大的那他們有他們的一個官方的理由那2007年喔就是當時的是叫做文建會嘛框定的是粉紅色包含兩個藍的所以那"},{"start":14166.832,"end":14191.882,"text":"那再來我們就看他框定的理由是什麼那民主紀念園區裡面有一點就是剛剛部長講的有呼應本股積為臺灣重要之政治空間存在多數臺灣著名二戰後的各種政治記憶有足夠的代表性那名稱叫做民主的就認為就一個民主紀念園區要記得這種政治記憶很多著名的"},{"start":14192.482,"end":14217.361,"text":"那這個是在陳水扁擔任總統2007年合訂的那至今沒有被改過馬英九擔任總統的時候也沒有改這個部分所以他台灣民主紀念園區是不變的地位那我們來看一下不同政黨的好龍兵他的官方他們這個都有開過會的官方的文字是什麼建築兩邊都有講到你看他第二點他兩個理由第二點中間說"},{"start":14219.022,"end":14229.925,"text":"廣場部分多年來為重要集會或民主運動抗議表達場所從學運到燈會以及選舉、造勢晚會等等與民眾集體記憶及認同意義深遠故全區具文化性紀念園區之價值已成為市民休閒藝術及公民歷史之共同活動與記憶"},{"start":14244.284,"end":14268.746,"text":"我想請問部長這兩個版本一籃一綠聽起來你覺得最大的共識是什麼?那就是走過歷史的共同記憶但是大家解釋歷史的方式不同啊這裡面還沒有涉及到怎麼解釋不同喔他解釋也許有不同沒有說出來但是相同的部分就是肯認它是重要的地方然後就是民主記憶的一個過程"},{"start":14270.627,"end":14270.667,"text":"陳水扁議員"},{"start":14291.582,"end":14292.944,"text":"鄭麗君部長的任內做的事情是停播講功紀念歌"},{"start":14307.142,"end":14333.52,"text":"把據威權意向的中正義郎屆時廳改為一展廳二展廳等中性的名稱李永德部長當時我也要求了做相關轉型正義的小旅行等等那有去文化部都有去努力辦理相關活動然後增設獨裁者vs自由的靈魂長社展等等使則部長展出了想像中正經驗100種方式特展那"},{"start":14334.401,"end":14361.251,"text":"再來就是我們李部長了所以部長可以好好的思考一下在這個藍圖上您的目標是什麼那對我們來講的話我想今天幾位委員都有提到我想我們一個月內至少可以有一個三軍一隊徹離同向旁您的規劃跟想法剛剛你有說到九月嘛那如果您覺得一個月不夠我覺得不管是到自由廣場如果是國家一隊三軍一隊的話它應該保護的是"},{"start":14363.712,"end":14365.634,"text":"部長這個可以一個月或者是您覺得不夠兩個月可以給我們一個您初步的規劃好嗎?"},{"start":14393.59,"end":14393.63,"text":"主席"},{"start":14408.55,"end":14410.332,"text":"不知道部長有沒有看到這個新聞?"},{"start":14431.229,"end":14454.144,"text":"有,不但有看到,而且我非常重視,因為其中曹永和先生跟陳其路先生我都認識,而且我曾經在學習歷史的過程中跟他們學習過,所以這個過程我非常注意。那謝謝,很高興部長知道,而且他其實不只是個人的居,那個建築群就是日治時代的那個,就是台大有保留一部分的這個建築群,"},{"start":14455.145,"end":14456.986,"text":"他曾經在106年當時就受理所以後來就是因為有文資潛力會刊之後云與列冊的"},{"start":14484.645,"end":14488.367,"text":"107年開會都是持續列冊,有保存價值,竟然4年後被突襲,111年被突襲,而且過程中都沒有依照文化部的相關行政命令跟手冊,沒有規定通知提報人,最誇張的是他解列"},{"start":14506.316,"end":14525.131,"text":"從此不再列管了就是不被認為有文資地位那個會議跟我們立法院很像沒有討論所以也沒有民主變成報告案那我們看了文化部的函式很明確說這種案子解列管解列冊是非常重要的解列案應該要實質討論"},{"start":14526.772,"end":14527.273,"text":"《文化資產保存法》"},{"start":14544.634,"end":14555.142,"text":"五次現刊都沒有進入屋內依照文化部的指示屋內一定要進去戶外戶內進去然後也沒有依規定通知提報人因為這些委員不斷的在換對不對過了幾年之後提報人最知道文史價值然後呢在會議裡面決議不具文資價值"},{"start":14563.027,"end":14563.107,"text":"所以這幾個問題"},{"start":14581.014,"end":14593.529,"text":"當然這個是臺北市政府的不在我的質詢範圍內但我想文化部有責任要了解那今天的時間的緣故我們可以看到這也不是我第一次發現地方政府有類似的問題那我想請文化部做兩件事"},{"start":14597.594,"end":14597.934,"text":"這第一個可以嗎?那個部長"},{"start":14616.494,"end":14635.884,"text":"我們目前的法規是沒有究責沒有 它就不遵照你們的規定我剛講了對 讓搶救文史的人連通知都沒有被通知好 第一個那第二個這裡面涉及到了剛剛那個主角是也是我很熟悉的台灣大學那其實不只是台大據說他們現在有很多都更案"},{"start":14636.604,"end":14640.425,"text":"對他們來說,好像覺得已經保存一部分了,是不是不需要再保存?我覺得這個當然是跟他主事者認為的臺大的利益,他可能覺得有一些衝突,但我覺得這個部分我們蠻困擾的,因為像剛剛臺鐵也有委員看到被罰200萬的事,這些擁有"},{"start":14659.029,"end":14677.081,"text":"眾多歷史有文資潛力的老建築的臺大、臺堂、臺電、臺鐵這一類的公家機關是不是文化部想想看如何協助鼓勵他們主動盤點跟保存因為私人的話我們可以講到那個是財產的問題那這些臺大、臺電、臺堂、臺鐵都是國家的資產"},{"start":14684.105,"end":14708.396,"text":"是不是應該更率先要好好的保存保護我們這些文資潛力好不好那否則就在就是說財務自主的壓力下大家想出各種方式我覺得會讓文資所有關心的人跟我們的後代子孫哪天知道我們沒有努力的話會非常失望的那這兩個部分部長是不是可以您看多少時間內可以給我們一個報告好嗎"},{"start":14709.585,"end":14712.447,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長"},{"start":14739.053,"end":14740.394,"text":"北戴古瑞在今期獎得獎感言﹚"},{"start":14765.689,"end":14786.954,"text":"近期講感言天安門事件也是剛好35年大陸的很多的都對這個這樣的發言不滿意我用比較中性的不滿意在臺灣的很多人很滿意是不是這樣應該是吧好我來說對原住民族而言對原住民族而言"},{"start":14795.148,"end":14824.24,"text":"大陸的漢人不滿意,臺灣的漢人很滿意這是原住民族的角度好,我們看這個發言原住民族所看到的是什麼呢?本來古瑞他的發言得獎感言是說剛剛結束了7年在凱道的抗議為了原住民族群傳統領域的事情"},{"start":14825.239,"end":14853.207,"text":"我們看到的是這個我們非常感謝他這樣的一個得獎感言然後他後面提到天安門事件對原住民族而言他這一句話我們都不要忘記天安門事件不要忘記凱道事件也不要忘記對原住民族而言是這樣所以台灣要加油"},{"start":14853.803,"end":14879.048,"text":"因為對於原住民族而言都是統治者然後對原住民族而言還有台語專輯獎榮獲最佳台語專輯獎對原住民族而言包括客家人對於用台語這兩個字其實是很有意見的因為"},{"start":14881.929,"end":14903.182,"text":"臺灣的原住民臺灣的語言臺灣的語言簡稱臺語應該包含著在臺灣的各個族群的語言好這個是一個好因為為什麼呢你看這個本來骨髓他在凱道一樣是被欺凌"},{"start":14904.505,"end":14925.95,"text":"在台灣是被警察欺禮在大陸是軍方欺禮這個是讓大家也了解一下今天的主題無化資產成功以外教會我質詢了很多次"},{"start":14928.558,"end":14935.883,"text":"這個宜灣教會它是一個被列為歷史建築這樣的一個外牆這整個仍然一直到現在你看這個歷史古蹟"},{"start":14956.055,"end":14972.168,"text":"《文化資產保存法》第11條規定,中央主管機關應寬列預算、專款辦理、援助民族文化資產的保存維護。部長,你剛上任,我從107年7月30日就質詢,甚至去會刊,"},{"start":14982.192,"end":15008.807,"text":"實地會堪．質詢了這麼多次．一直到去年的5月22號好,文化部也開了一個線上會議這個理由都不充分不能說因為有前面的那條道路有爭議就不處理這不應該是成為一個理由了這個"},{"start":15014.929,"end":15038.677,"text":"地主把這個其實也不是他的啦他已經是繼承道路鄉公政公所也把他列為繼承道路他黨就不應該黨所以你不要修這個歷史建築對不對當然可以啊對不對不能受到任何的影響所以這個部分要請這個"},{"start":15041.84,"end":15067.435,"text":"前面的已經拆除了黨的也沒有了現在沒有理由了吧什麼時候可以執行報告鄭委員您這個教堂非常重要也非常漂亮然後我們已經開始處理了之前有一些產權問題還有其他問題全部寫到完畢我跟您保證我們會解決因為真的是很久很久了"},{"start":15069.589,"end":15070.089,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":15098.186,"end":15115.809,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝鄭天才委員 還部長請回我們接下來請鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在我們請楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在我們現在請徐富奎委員謝謝主席 我們有請李部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":15132.034,"end":15153.669,"text":"徐委員你好部長午安辛苦了部長我想今天我們是針對這個文資資產的保護的部分一個議題我想我們本期的選區屏東縣我們也有100多處的一個文化資產那也很感謝我們近幾年我們文化部對這個文化資產一個保護"},{"start":15154.429,"end":15174.084,"text":"那從我們的潘賢縣長到周縣長任內我們屏東縣政府一直致力於這些文化資產的一個保護跟活化但是我們最怕就是遇到火災啦齁那最近我們屏東潮州的一個郡所官社就是因為在文資審議之前發生了一個火災的事故那"},{"start":15174.924,"end":15201.354,"text":"請教文化部後續針對這樣的一個資源的一個挹注怎麼來協助屏東縣政府因為像本席我們昨天也約了文智所的同仁去看了我們萬巒的劉氏宗祠我想這部長也很清楚一百多年的歷史但是我們文智所的同仁也吐湖水說他們現在也沒有相關的經費來可以做協助那針對這樣的一個困境我們文化部怎麼後續來協助我們地方好我請文智局回答"},{"start":15203.42,"end":15221.338,"text":"現在目前各地的這些文資的需要保存修復的這些相關的申請案現在就送到部裡面來文資局了我們現在盤整因為明年度預算現在那個行政院那邊還沒有那個完全定案我們最後會把這些所有的案子那這個案子我們也會來納到那裡面來做協助"},{"start":15222.659,"end":15245.29,"text":"因為我想我們李部長也很有理想很有抱負但是他一上任就面臨自己手邊好像沒有籌碼可以運用了這樣子未來做事情也很辛苦這點可能要趕快去盤領一下那部長我想我們屏東縣的勝利新村跟我們的平原1936都是一個活化成功的一個歷史再造的場域我記得部長"},{"start":15246.01,"end":15246.31,"text":"《文化資產保存法》"},{"start":15269.682,"end":15277.606,"text":"所謂的一個文資活化的一個後續的營運管理上面能不能建立一個相關的一個支援的平台來協助這個文化資產的一個維護請部長回答"},{"start":15280.64,"end":15281.001,"text":"文化部長"},{"start":15310.5,"end":15324.894,"text":"那我想過去部長這個還沒有到部裡面服務之前我們一個很重要的一個身份是我們指縫車基金會的一個董事長那也感謝部長在這個董事長的任內對我們屏東的偏鄉"},{"start":15325.435,"end":15346.988,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":15347.568,"end":15375.718,"text":"在我人生中的理想就是我一直在做的事情就屬於這種因為在文化上都會的孩子享受文化體驗比較容易偏鄉的孩子可能一輩子如果你不表演給他看他可能看不到所以我人生的理想為什麼會做斑斑齒風車走遍全台灣甚至於離島還有我自己也做千里步道也是很辛苦的在建立步道也走遍全台灣那這個理想我會堅持的"},{"start":15376.958,"end":15398.001,"text":"我想我們跟部長的心情都一樣當我們在偏鄉表演的過程裡面看到小朋友臉上的笑容非常的燦爛那非常的期待非常的渴望或許還有這樣的一個表演那我也跟部長分析一下以我們目前掌握到的一個狀況那屏東縣的藝文表演的活動的數量"},{"start":15399.082,"end":15414.786,"text":"是全台灣各縣市的第15名但是實際上我們鄉親參與藝文演出的這個參與的人數是排名第9所以我們屏東的鄉親是很熱衷來參與這些藝文活動的但是往往這個辦一場這個活動要花很多錢"},{"start":15417.327,"end":15445.355,"text":"那我想未來文化部怎麼樣針對一個偏鄉巡演能夠提高藝文團體的一個表演的誘因還有部長把過去這個在指縫車董事長任內對偏鄉的關懷能夠這個初衷帶到文化部來能夠讓我們這個文化的種子散播到屏東每一塊的土地上面我想部長這可以共同來努力好不好沒有問題真的我們屏東非常需要部長關愛的眼神是好 謝謝部長謝謝你 謝謝"},{"start":15447.349,"end":15476.078,"text":"好 謝謝徐富奎委員部長請回我們接下來請林楚英委員林楚英林楚英委員不在我們請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在我們請何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳委員不在我們請黃珊珊黃珊珊黃珊珊委員不在我們請吳思瑤吳思瑤吳思瑤委員不在我們請林倩琦委員"},{"start":15487.383,"end":15494.271,"text":"謝謝莊委,我們是不是先請文資局的陳局長好,有請陳局長這個部分也請部長這邊來稍微關注局長先請坐是這樣,因為剛才其實委員有講過有關於入港國定古蹟的龍山市彩繪的修復也有很多的狀況跟問題"},{"start":15509.546,"end":15525.333,"text":"本席這邊有很逐帆不及備載的這樣一個抱怨受到的抱怨收到民眾的這個抱怨所以我想會後這個部分是不是請你書面的詳細的解釋那本席在這邊簡單講幾點那是不是請你就為什麼會解約"},{"start":15530.896,"end":15552.091,"text":"然後究竟是為什麼你們在原標案的數量不明確規範不明確而導致一些爭議那你們的自我檢討是什麼好然後另外第二點就是是不是會再重新發包修復還是會再延宕兩年好那這個部分請你待會用很簡單的很簡短的30秒鐘給本席做一個回應"},{"start":15552.671,"end":15553.752,"text":"臺灣美術館副館長任內典藏庫房工程"},{"start":15570.342,"end":15570.462,"text":"中山堂修復"},{"start":15594.17,"end":15603.833,"text":"本席在會後給你相關的書面那你就書面的部分做一個回覆那但是為什麼這個龍山市會解約然後又會解約收場"},{"start":15605.287,"end":15626.466,"text":"那還會再重新發報嗎?那結約的原因是因為我們的委託廠商雲科大的團隊沒有修復規劃的系不規劃的那些計畫沒有通過審查四次沒有通過依照我們的契約就把它結束終止契約是終止契約那謝謝那一般來講這個學校單位"},{"start":15627.947,"end":15628.107,"text":"主席"},{"start":15653.189,"end":15659.131,"text":"本席是在表演藝術的專業所以昨天非常感謝您也承諾在有關於原住民族的這個國家表演藝術樂舞團"},{"start":15672.756,"end":15673.436,"text":"建議您可以仿照英國的Tony獎"},{"start":15700.71,"end":15727.507,"text":"本席其實在英國的西區至少40幾個劇院已經去過20幾個那看到的劇當然也非常的多所以在這邊給您提供一些那個想法跟意見今天我們談的是文資 文化資產那事實上表演藝術跟文化資產的這個結合也是一個世界的趨勢那我們看以下的這個PPT那這個是Illdiva對不起Illdivo這樣一個團在這個La Pushka Arena"},{"start":15728.788,"end":15753.484,"text":"在克萊西亞這樣一個國家那他們跟文化資產的一個結合是有很好的一個效果那這個假設未來的這個國家樂舞團原住民的國家樂舞團能夠有這樣一個規劃那我想這樣一個國家級跟文化資產會讓這個文化資產在活化利用等等的議題上不僅是跟上國家國際的趨勢那也是一個非常好的一個活化利用的"},{"start":15755.564,"end":15756.965,"text":"本席要談的是錢跟人不知道部長對於全國財力的分配"},{"start":15778.188,"end":15786.413,"text":"的這個比例財力狀況的等級有沒有了解就全國的財力各縣市的這個財力比例分為五個等級"},{"start":15788.665,"end":15808.12,"text":"如果這個部分本席直接跟您做個提醒這個1到5級的財力其實有12個縣市是在第5級那這個第5級的這個縣市其實如果沒有中央的挹注真的很難持續跟做到長遠所以全國總共有5300個有形文化資產"},{"start":15809.761,"end":15834.25,"text":"從本席開始在做相關的觀察跟研究到現在已經有五千三百多個有形文化資產還不包括無形文化資產那文化資產呢我們經常來講說不能以投資報酬來談這件事情但是很多時候大家就是收盲票撩背一格的來湊數那也很難成為長期的活水那本席知道在2023年文化部這邊有提出文化資產維護發展計畫的第五期要從2024年到2029年"},{"start":15838.411,"end":15852.592,"text":"那或者行政院目前已經合訂了159.44億元那已經是歷年來補助之罪所以這個要如何分配 怎麼樣做到雨露金瞻那部長這邊有概念或者是有想法了嗎"},{"start":15854.787,"end":15855.007,"text":"文資應該要注意到的這個問題"},{"start":15881.067,"end":15882.749,"text":"人﹚在報告裏面談了好多的細項本席未來希望能夠針對這個細項在跟部裏面討論但是我們這邊談一點就是3922元這個最低薪資"},{"start":15896.184,"end":15897.525,"text":"本期在這邊做一個提醒"},{"start":15919.797,"end":15933.51,"text":"最後本席這邊談一下這個文化資產很忌諱被政治駕馭或意識形態影響本席其實在這裡面本身在文化的領域我覺得其實蠻寬廣的而且很自由"},{"start":15935.712,"end":15950.099,"text":"在文化資產的這個部分它的本質就是你希望能夠不分區域不拘大小也不限年代跟不計輕重的朝著保存情感跟共同記憶去保存連結跟延伸"},{"start":15951.819,"end":15972.784,"text":"但是本席真的有感受到最近的政治氛圍讓本來很寬廣的一個文化空間感覺有點受到擠壓跟方向上的一個推動所以本席這邊分享過去一個經驗但是在分享這個經驗前本席先請教一下您知道這個圖是哪一個地方嗎?"},{"start":15976.643,"end":16002.729,"text":"如果不知道可能像台灣像這樣子的和洋式的建築有很多那本席這邊提醒一下他是基隆的敘秋指揮所那敘秋呢在過去這個林右昌市長的任內獲到了硬體方面很多的補助但是到了現任呢因為可能不同的政黨可能相關的補助也非常的微弱所以也沒有辦法對外開放然後就變成所謂的文職管其實這個共業應該我們共同要來"},{"start":16003.729,"end":16006.33,"text":"本席,想要請教您一下您對建成館有"},{"start":16029.488,"end":16032.89,"text":"本席在高雄縣政府文化局有經歷過鳳山縣新城這樣一個概念"},{"start":16054.525,"end":16056.087,"text":"佛山縣舊城在左營"},{"start":16069.542,"end":16070.042,"text":"《文化資產保存法》"},{"start":16089.476,"end":16117.468,"text":"這個概念是不是也是很有趣的一個探討那是不是部長您回去可以想一想這個建成我在想他是因為當時有一個計劃叫做這個建成的這個計劃建到的成我本來以為是建立了建因為有這個計劃結果它後來叫做建成館所以本席在這邊要講的是本席非常同意您剛才講的所有發生的事都是歷史的過程這一頁看完了"},{"start":16118.268,"end":16125.317,"text":"就翻到下一頁吧是是我們不要一直留在那邊我們看看這一頁然後再往前走"},{"start":16126.476,"end":16131.278,"text":"本席很喜歡過去在高雄縣跟的一個首長叫做楊秋興縣長他跟本席經常講教育跟文化是人類思想的境地"},{"start":16153.648,"end":16159.872,"text":"我們作為一個文化人,請我們共同好好的守護人類思想的境地。"},{"start":16165.755,"end":16166.696,"text":"蔡奕宇委員"},{"start":16186.179,"end":16202.752,"text":"報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢及相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報對委員質詢要求提出相關資料及未及答覆部分請相關機關競訴以書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":16215.426,"end":16232.071,"text":"我們等一下回新莊嗎?我們在徐州,下午要去臺北觀"},{"start":16236.512,"end":16236.813,"text":"有關事項"},{"start":16275.606,"end":16297.875,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":16300.83,"end":16301.051,"text":"主席響鐘"}]}},{"id":"16056","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16056","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685ae5f17226264b1aaae17401902c909944f242ceca9577839dc1c3500c2a0f3d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「就業服務法家庭外籍看護聘僱制度探討」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-03","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-03T08:31:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:02:00+08:00","duration":12642,"影片長度":"03:30:42","委員發言時間":"08:31:18 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陳振芬教授"},{"start":2153.306,"end":2180.05,"text":"國立臺灣大學公共衛生學院健康政策與管理研究所陳雅美教授臺灣外籍工作者發展協會徐瑞熙理事長國立中山大學管理學院張恆彥助理教授臺灣失能者家庭暨看護雇主"},{"start":2180.703,"end":2189.529,"text":"國際協會童文勛童文勛執行長中華民國就業服務商業同業公會全國聯合會林益生秘書長再補充介紹介紹我們今天與會的勞動部政務次長王安邦次長"},{"start":2208.171,"end":2208.631,"text":"社會及家庭屬："},{"start":2231.144,"end":2235.309,"text":"副副副副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":2257.403,"end":2274.649,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位學者專家、團體代表還有與會的媒體先進大家早安以下由勞動部來針對《就業服務法》裡面家庭外籍看護聘僱制來做現況的報告第一個部分依據內政部護政司的統計截至113年3月底"},{"start":2278.086,"end":2305.744,"text":"目前我國80歲以上的人口人數大約是91萬那依照資料顯示目前使用長照服務的失能失智還有使用家庭看護移工為使用長照服務者另外包括入住住宿室機構服務總計大概有38.1萬人目前有被照顧的需求那其中又依據衛福部的統計資料80歲以上的失能率約莫是41.7%"},{"start":2308.566,"end":2336.435,"text":"以此來推估目前五國80歲以上處於健康與假健康的長者大約人數是53萬人第二個部分也來跟大會報告依據我們目前從去年10月到今年初到今年為止我們開放了多元認定評估的方式來簡化了申請的程序其中有三項符合資格的包括使用長照服務"},{"start":2337.996,"end":2353.252,"text":"連續6個月以上還有是輕度失智另外我們也增加了擴大重度呼吸障礙、中度吞嚥障礙、中度特定身心障礙等項目共計14項那截至今年的4月為止"},{"start":2353.932,"end":2368.354,"text":"我們有做了一個統計的數據我們在整體申請的人數有6.2萬人其中80歲以上大概是4.2萬人推估數"},{"start":2369.335,"end":2395.632,"text":"那整體來說大概有2.3萬是使用多元免品那有1.9萬是透過病證及私人診斷書包含巴氏量表的評估來申請家事移工所以大體上來講從去年10月到現在80歲以上的長者使用這兩軌制的評估大約約莫是一半一半的比例那我們相信因為多元評估剛上路"},{"start":2396.152,"end":2424.431,"text":"未來在走這個多元評估的人數應該會增加第三個部分那因為在政策進行了8個月之後我們也發現其實有一部分的也適合可以採用多元評估所以我們預計在今年9月來修正相關的法規包含80歲以上且有長期就醫紀錄失能不可逆的特定病症"},{"start":2425.031,"end":2446.513,"text":"同時包括偏遠地區醫療診所長期就醫紀錄的失能者我們預計可以受惠的人數再增加5.5萬本部對於目前整體來說在這個家庭聘僱看護工的制度上面我們也有在考慮在除了增加民眾的便利性之外"},{"start":2448.155,"end":2468.972,"text":"如果依照目前有些各界有提出希望依照年齡來全面免聘這件事情那我們也有我們的擔憂與顧慮第一個首先就是目前在臺灣的外籍移工人數大概是21萬人那依我剛剛還跟各位報告的我們現在如果整體"},{"start":2469.773,"end":2469.793,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2488.59,"end":2506.287,"text":"重症者他在這個市場上裡面他必須要去尋找家庭看護工的過程裡面會造成有他的困難第二個部分也就是說這樣子是不是會造成這個真正有需要的人他其實會有困難"},{"start":2507.088,"end":2507.808,"text":"好 謝謝王次長的報告 接下來請衛福部代表報告 時間5分鐘"},{"start":2539.683,"end":2558.043,"text":"主席還有我們未還的委員還有我們今天邀請來的這些學者專家跟民間團體那衛福部今天就就業服務法家庭外籍看護聘僱制度這樣的一個探討的公聽會那我們就是提出一些看法那也"},{"start":2558.744,"end":2587.302,"text":"就叫各位那首先其實就誠如剛剛勞動部次長這邊的報告那依據這個內政部的到今年3月的統計18歲以上的是有91萬多人那扣除已經在我們使用長照體系這邊有得到還有這個聘僱外刊的自行照顧的我們預估還有將近六成大概53萬還具有行動能力跟社會參與能力那我們是覺得說"},{"start":2588.283,"end":2588.303,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2603.769,"end":2603.789,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2625.106,"end":2625.346,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2646.701,"end":2672.183,"text":"那當然我們國人習慣還是在熟悉的這個社區來中老所以才會衍生這個有聘僱外刊一對一的照顧需求那如果在申請外刊只以年齡為評估而不考慮這樣的一個照顧需求在相關的這個國際人權公約的狀態的保障下其實外刊他本來就有選擇工作的權利所以有可能就會挑選比較容易照顧的個案"},{"start":2673.724,"end":2689.633,"text":"加上現在的這個世界各國也都是有缺工那外看人力有限會排擠恐怕會排擠到我們真正有照顧需要跟重度失能的的照顧者的家庭的這個申請那第三是我們也想說"},{"start":2690.253,"end":2690.273,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2711.19,"end":2731.301,"text":"不論他的年齡家屬都可以向地方政府來提出申請那由勞動部這邊公告的860家的醫療機構可以來執行倒載進行專業評估來降低失能者移動這個不便性那也因為也就是找他的熟悉的家庭的醫師來評估所以也會降低這樣的疫病衝突"},{"start":2732.602,"end":2732.622,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2752.333,"end":2776.535,"text":"出示相關的證明文件我們就視同名下沒有聘僱外刊可以申請所有的長照服務來幫助家庭能夠紓解外刊不在的照顧壓力第5部分是我們為了鼓勵優秀的外刊留才9任已經在臺灣工作6年以上的外刊或取得我國副學士學位的僑外生都可以由僱主來申請轉任為中階技術人員"},{"start":2778.937,"end":2793.37,"text":"依據勞動部這邊提供的數據目前這個家庭的這個外籍看護類的中階技術人力已經有了一萬六千多人那我們現在也會規劃將這一類的人員如果通過我們的國台語聽說能力測驗"},{"start":2796.092,"end":2796.853,"text":"醫療跟長照的整合服務以上報告"},{"start":2829.514,"end":2840.692,"text":"本次會議部會及學者專家所提供的相關書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":2842.732,"end":2869.924,"text":"與會人員發言前先宣告以下事項學者專家及本院委員發言每位發言時間6分鐘那位簡報方便學者專家發言請至主席台右邊的發言台原則上由學者專家先行依簽到順序發言委員如要發言請到主席台登記原則上學者專家兩位之後再由登記委員發言"},{"start":2871.384,"end":2895.923,"text":"全部人員發言結束後再請行政機關做整體回應暫定10點30分休息10分鐘好那現在請登記第一位請登記第一位臺灣看護僱主國際協會執行長童文勳童執行長發言那委員可以到前面登記"},{"start":2904.454,"end":2931.583,"text":"主席各位先生大家好我代表僱主協會發言市民家庭其實在聘僱移工的時候他是一個弱弱聘僱那我們一直強調這一點就是說不可以把他們當作是跟公司跟企業一樣來看待然後給他們強加非常多的責任那我們其實目標非常的明確所有的僱主只有一個要求就是重症不能成為跳板"},{"start":2932.841,"end":2933.061,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2948.675,"end":2974.086,"text":"最重要的原因是因為各行各業缺工應該要去根治各行各業缺工的問題而不是每次我們就是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳這不能夠徹底解決問題再來應該要縮短因為立法或者是各種原因造成的照護的空窗期那這個空窗期包括我們的法規的限制就是說一定要一進一出"},{"start":2975.026,"end":3003.179,"text":"我曾經要求過是不是可以體諒體會當有重症家庭的空窗期發生的時候非常的痛苦甚至有的人必須要辭工去專心照顧家人那將來他自己年老之後他將會是另外一個社會問題所以這個空窗期可不可以不要是嚴格的限制有八十兩表的這些家庭是一定要一進一出他不見得同時要僱用兩個人可是當他要轉換"},{"start":3004.991,"end":3007.112,"text":"提高照護品質應該要把這些家庭的看護納入衛福部所建立的一個長照制度的一個訓練跟聘務的規範裡面"},{"start":3028.041,"end":3056.437,"text":"然後失能者家庭聘用移工是萬不得已的他不是我們今天要找人然後來伺候來享樂不是是萬不得已的而且沒有一般外界所說的這麼的嚴重我們從移民署他所說的逃工的這個完整的數字來看現在在家庭類的在去年度他的逃逸的情況不過就是1.8%也就是說100個看護工裡面才有1.8人"},{"start":3058.041,"end":3084.639,"text":"是陶藝的那就這個部分我們可以知道也是符合我們所有的家屬的經驗就是其實牢固的關係是相當和諧的沒有什麼台灣是一個虐待移工的國家這些誇張的說法我覺得是我們必須要去正視的數字會說話就讓數字說話然後陶藝移工不只是國家安全的問題上次我們有提大聲"},{"start":3085.868,"end":3101.473,"text":"被一個逃逸的移工撞死這個問題就知道沒有保險保障的他開車也沒有保障也沒有第三責任險沒有保障的這些總共在外面有8萬多個逃逸的移工事實上是社會的不定時炸彈這個問題必須要解決所以呢我們認為幾個解決的基本的問題我們大概如列了16項"},{"start":3111.305,"end":3111.445,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":3142.028,"end":3170.639,"text":"我們今天不代表他們說話但是有很多的旅館業因為他的他的房務員缺工可是不知道為什麼政府就是不給他們然後我們現在實際上的失業的人口總數也不過大概是16萬上下平均所有的每個縣市的人口大概每100個人只有一個人你有辦法再去重新安頓他的工作所以不要說臺灣人不做沒有這回事因為臺灣沒有人力了所有人都各就各位在工作上"},{"start":3171.579,"end":3171.739,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3191.499,"end":3200.927,"text":"既然所有的人都是拿巴士量表進來的就僱主家庭來說他們是拿巴士量表進來的必須要先去市場上招募"},{"start":3202.065,"end":3226.462,"text":"是已經沒有人要應聘這個工作所以才引人進來的所以他們根本沒有搶走臺灣人的就業機會既然如此不應該對這些人再去刻意就業安定基金因為他沒有妨礙到任何的人的就業機會好那再來巴士量表應該是福利的給予而不是我們今天對於他能不能聘僱移工的資格的審查"},{"start":3227.779,"end":3240.009,"text":"好然後今天我們知道說可能要討論我們的救福法是不是把現在已經失聯的或者說有一些已經在待業中的這些移工是不是可以變成是一個"},{"start":3241.192,"end":3257.799,"text":"好,好像是,呃,直接把這些人拿來用,去補足長照的這個問題,如果是這樣的話,我們其實就業服務法要改的東西太多了,他們完全不符合現在就業服務法的相關的規定,好,是不是時間已經到了,還有是不是,好,那"},{"start":3262.674,"end":3264.315,"text":"臺灣大學健康政策與管理研究所陳雅美教授"},{"start":3291.577,"end":3296.063,"text":"大家早安我是陳雅美今天很高興有這個機會來跟大家分享我對於外籍看護聘僱制度探討的一些想法然後因為我是學界但最喜歡就是從文獻開始看但從"},{"start":3305.762,"end":3309.364,"text":"要看這三個提綱我建議大家應該先想一個重點是我們要看2070年我們的高齡人口根據國發會的推估我們會來到43.65%我們期待那時候的臺灣社會會是什麼的樣態我一直想不出來即使我是教高齡我教長照其實那樣的社會樣態我也想不太出來不過最近我買了Chad GPT"},{"start":3330.891,"end":3332.232,"text":"所以我請他幫我畫畫看43.65%臺灣的社會陽台可能會是什麼樣子跟大家分享他給我這個圖其實看起來非常的溫馨非常的有活力"},{"start":3346.847,"end":3350.934,"text":"其實我在看這樣的圖的時候他在做圖在那邊轉的時候我很擔心那時候會不會我看到一個Church GPT畫出很多老人家都是外籍看護牽著推著的一個街道的畫面"},{"start":3362.819,"end":3368.582,"text":"很高興我們看到還是一個很有活力的畫面我就想說那我是不是應該近看一點我叫他給我一張近照近照其實還是給我很有活力長者可以彼此互相互相幫忙互相照顧是一個有活力的社會我對這樣的社會我覺得開始有期待就是我教高齡其實自己想到2017年的時候我原本會很焦慮但是這樣的社會我可以期待但是大家看到這樣子的一個社會基本的要素是什麼"},{"start":3391.812,"end":3411.623,"text":"致老年人的活力跟自主性所以我們今天在思考外籍看護的一個政策的時候其實臺灣我們已經有很多對於重症的失能者他的家庭照顧者的需要有法規可以讓這一些"},{"start":3412.304,"end":3419.05,"text":"人可以申請到我們輕度的高齡的85歲以上的長者只要非常輕度的失能95分的巴士量表真的是非常容易他們可以很容易拚得到外籍看護所以今天如果針對我們今天討論其實在講是80歲健康的老年人我們是不是應該要幫他們給他們這樣的一個機會但是我想從這樣的角度上來去思考應該是"},{"start":3442.062,"end":3447.024,"text":"我們覺得該不該外籍看護進來他們對健康的老年人大概是做兩件事剛剛主席也有提到一個就是陪伴另外一個我想很重要的是很多家庭想要的家務所以我們如果給了這樣子的機會開了這樣的大門我想要提醒大家的是對健康的老年人我這邊沒有在講失能老年人對健康的老年人他們的健康是不是好的從文獻上看"},{"start":3471.315,"end":3474.819,"text":"無論是西方東方都是一樣家務時間的總量其實跟老年人的健康是有幫忙的是有正向的關係甚至加拿大的團隊他們也發現家務時間越多的長輩他的大腦輝子其實是體積是越大"},{"start":3488.093,"end":3503.492,"text":"大腦輝子其實是大腦功能功能的一個展現越大當然是越好那亞洲呢我們就想說這個是西方國家我們亞洲呢亞洲我就再多花了一些力氣多收集了一些從新加坡中國香港台灣"},{"start":3505.373,"end":3530.883,"text":"資訊非常的一致我們都是看到家務活動跟長輩的功能是有正相關的他會功能比較好他的認知功能比較特別在注意力記憶力的方面那長期的追蹤研究甚至顯現可以下降衰弱跟前衰的發生女性甚至可以下降41%的全死因死亡率54%的心血管疾病的死亡率"},{"start":3532.349,"end":3533.331,"text":"那我們也可以提升老人的步態步態速度可以更好最近的BMJ很有名台灣不是全世界知名的期刊都認為"},{"start":3545.063,"end":3545.083,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3562.709,"end":3562.849,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3585.437,"end":3594.922,"text":"整體估計感情感性的估計感會稍低一些但是他的社交性孤獨是沒有關係的什麼叫做社交性這什麼意思情感性孤獨就是這個人有一個人他情感可以去寄託在他身上社交性孤獨是我們一般比較在意的這個人的有意義的社會網絡他的連結是如何但是所以外籍看護在這個部分上他是沒有辦法幫忙"},{"start":3611.879,"end":3614.865,"text":"機制在下面,請大家就可以自己看,我想都很容易理解"},{"start":3615.993,"end":3620.636,"text":"所以根據這樣子的文獻國際上的這麼已經非常多的文獻我們應該要思考的是我們今天做政策對健康的老年應該是以健康老化為目標而不是是就是他們要什麼我們就給他們什麼我們應該為台灣2070年去思考我們應該把資源集中在真的重症、失能、有家庭照顧有家庭照顧需求的而且特別要提醒"},{"start":3642.37,"end":3645.833,"text":"我們的研究團隊顯示外籍看護其實近來還有13個月的學期曲線在這13個月內照顧的老年人會有比較高的死亡風險跟住院的風險那對於這個申請程序我想這可以結合很多現代研究的顯示居家醫療、健康、文件站、衛生所都可以幫忙這個整個申請程序這應該是蠻容易的"},{"start":3669.332,"end":3678.935,"text":"那最後一點我很快的跟大家分享外籍看護的是其實這樣子的模式跟國外在長照講的是consumer direct這個模式是認為雇主他其實是在這個領域裡面的專家他知道怎麼叫外籍看護來告訴來教他我要的照顧是什麼這種consumer direct的先決條件應該是雇主要先自己受訓所以第三個我要提出的是"},{"start":3694.887,"end":3710.833,"text":"顧主應該要受訓學習怎麼做外刊的神隊友下面這篇文獻是外刊的研究說I can't do this alone所以顧主受訓了之後他會比較容易知道我有哪些長照的資源像是居家服務居家服務不行居家醫療居家護理還有居家婦男這些其實他怎麼結合起來幫助外籍看護做他的神隊友謝謝大家"},{"start":3723.237,"end":3723.678,"text":"好 謝謝陳教授的發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":3737.321,"end":3754.134,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員還有在座的專家學者教授們大家好今天針對就業服務家庭外籍看護聘僱制度的探討本席有幾點看法還有建議首先呢根據統計111年臺灣國人的平均移民已經跌落到79.84歲低於80歲相較前年下降了1.02歲因此我們可以看到"},{"start":3766.003,"end":3783.652,"text":"在這樣的健保體制之下我們國人目前的危機是並沒有過得更健康而且我們的平均餘命是越來越短再來我們的不健康存活的年數大約是落在7.56到8.5年其中主因癌症5年的存活率"},{"start":3790.031,"end":3790.051,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3820.231,"end":3836.388,"text":"多數的家庭已經變成新型態的小家庭所以他們也必須要減少更多照顧長者以及照顧下面的子女的負擔內政部最新的統計2023年平均每戶人口"},{"start":3839.251,"end":3839.271,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3863.079,"end":3865.661,"text":"實在是很難撐過臺灣照護歷程的平均8年那臺灣的長照杯歌我們也會在新聞看到常常令人家很心酸將有可能會繼續發生而且越來越頻繁"},{"start":3879.671,"end":3905.116,"text":"所以綜合上面所述的在國民黨去年這個競選的時候提出80歲以上的長者無需巴士良保可以直接聘請外籍看護的相關修法其實當時各位各黨總統候選人都有共識也曾提出不同的放寬巴士良保的政見賴總統當時有說過"},{"start":3909.037,"end":3909.057,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3935.888,"end":3963.061,"text":"這個聘僱外籍看護的申請標準如果單單只是作為相關的輔助的衡量的標準這個是可行可是如果把它當作申請的標準這個在第一線醫護人員的眼中因為我們也是常常出生基層所以看到許許多多科別的醫師護理師為了巴士糧表與病人造成許多的糾紛"},{"start":3964.562,"end":3978.813,"text":"那除了浪費我們醫療的行政人力以外還造成病友跟家屬不斷的在往返醫院還有近幾年因為申請巴士糧表引起引發了多起很不必要的醫療糾紛然後包括與醫師啊"},{"start":3983.114,"end":3983.554,"text":"臺灣目前的需求大幅的"},{"start":3998.49,"end":4021.749,"text":"提升這是國內很多人民內部的需求和聲音但許許多多的專家學者當然都有提到逃逸的移工還有缺工等等的問題這個也是本席長期非常關心的這些問題都是移工政策的不足還有管理的缺失所導致我們不要不希望在這樣子的議題上倒果為因"},{"start":4024.511,"end":4025.192,"text":"創造我們國家更多的前進的動力謝謝大家"},{"start":4055.421,"end":4058.884,"text":"主席還有各位先進相關部會學者專家大家好我想我們今天談的議題"},{"start":4093.242,"end":4114.456,"text":"我想它是一個老議題從1992年到現在其實外籍看護工的這個經歷了六次的部分那主要當然就兩個嘛一個就是疾病的嚴重程度失能程度調整那另外一個就是由醫事人員來負責評估的工作那在這樣的一個過程當中不好意思我一直沒有很順可以幫我嗎下一頁"},{"start":4115.871,"end":4134.347,"text":"那這個當然我們必須承認那在去年8個月前大家已經都討論過了就是巴士亮表他原來的目的就不是在用來做外籍看護工的這件事情不好意思"},{"start":4151.738,"end":4166.415,"text":"那所以其實對醫生來講剛剛陳靜蕙醫師起手特別談對醫生來講他就很難在診間去評估一個病人在非自然情境因為我們知道所謂的巴斯量表上一頁巴斯量表裡面他就會遇到的狀況是請問你可不可以自己吃飯"},{"start":4167.997,"end":4176.502,"text":"吃飯這件事情如果在我們的長照評估裡面還是要在現場去觀察然後他家裡的擺設等等但我們今天要討論的是臺灣歷經從1992年到整個這麼多年來的時候是一個社會學習"},{"start":4183.447,"end":4205.526,"text":"我們其實就會回來在社會學裡面我們討論聘移工如果被認為是一個解決照顧議題的唯一或甚至國家或立院的主張的時候其實我們會遇到一個蠻大的一個議題的困境是那因為我們當然我們相較於日本跟韓國我們是沒有語言的要求我們也沒有照顧技巧的"},{"start":4207.468,"end":4211.072,"text":"認證所以坦白講我們現在來講是相對還是比較可以請到人的我想媒體還是會問這個問題但是他進來了之後遇到的問題是我們的僱主卻還是希望他是可以溝通的他是具有品質的"},{"start":4223.707,"end":4245.527,"text":"所以這樣子一個牢固在照顧情境裡面常常發生的緊張是我們在長照的現場裡面一直遇到的困境所以下一頁的部分那剛剛陳雅美老師就在談面對一個超高齡的社會我們大家都一直在講那我們到底在擔心什麼我們可以做什麼面對一個老年世代跟成年子女世代下一頁"},{"start":4246.721,"end":4265.147,"text":"所以資深的公民他們其實一直在談我不想成為孩子的負擔那那個負擔其實有兩個一個是時間的負擔一個是經濟上的負擔那還有居住安排業是選擇我想剛剛委員也談到其實我們現在同住家戶則2.53人的部分所以下一頁的部分"},{"start":4266.147,"end":4292.073,"text":"所以我們提出來的解決方案往下所以其實我們可以很輕輕其實國建署等等衛福部等等相關單位都有其實歐盟其實早就提出來什麼叫活躍老化它其實就會回來我們面對勞動力的不足像剛剛談的防務其實防務裡面其實勞動部的另外的其實有鼓勵中高齡投入防務可是是因為雇主仍然期待一人多工所以你訓練了防務員"},{"start":4293.513,"end":4300.177,"text":"他破完床了之後我們知道大家住宿的經驗你這個10點要退房3點只能退check in所以你房務其實是集中時短可是僱主仍然習慣是我騙了一個人我還是要他支援餐飲我還是要他支援其他"},{"start":4312.405,"end":4332.922,"text":"所以我們在就業的部分怎麼隨著中高齡的部分做改變才是一個議題然後更重要的是我們的支持性的環境社會參與的部分才能維持我們的長輩持續的獨立健康跟安全那我想民眾黨的無稱成員也一直在呼籲壯世代這是我們一直都希望的一件事情好往下"},{"start":4334.249,"end":4357.143,"text":"所以這裡我們就回來臺灣其實早就已經跟上世界的潮流提出了TAAI就臺灣其實在這件事情上透過各式各樣的方法希望我們的長輩可以維持不要有嚴重的身體失能可以不要有這個認知失能不要有憂鬱剛剛陳亞美老師其實都有提到下一頁所以當我們最擔心是什麼獨居不是"},{"start":4358.124,"end":4359.245,"text":"我們擔心的是他衰弱生病失能的時候該怎麼辦我們有這三個選項"},{"start":4378.374,"end":4393.74,"text":"但這三個選項最重要的情況下我們要的是什麼這個資源要彈性及時品質跑漲所以我們剛剛就談到嘛其實勞動部跟廠商是一直有努力針對這個空窗期的部分提供了一個這個怎麼樣才可以"},{"start":4396.761,"end":4425.162,"text":"不要再說已經一出出國門的部分而是它只要轉換或等等的時候就只即時處理比如說我們現在的喘息服務其實基本上你的移工短期照顧等等都已經進來了所以其實由家庭一直在強調一對一的聘僱的時候它真的沒有具備這樣的一個品質要素那我想我們檢視長照2.0實際的狀況是等級越高越重症的被照顧的確實它是有下降的"},{"start":4425.862,"end":4432.293,"text":"那為什麼就是我們剛剛談到的因為他需要的密集程度就越高所以但是我們也必須注意到是這678"},{"start":4434.278,"end":4437.34,"text":"其實我們是鞏固既有的傳統教導我們也沒有鼓勵我們當代的老人去做一個活躍老化的部分跟壯世代理念也是背道而馳"},{"start":4462.819,"end":4477.755,"text":"那更重要的 聘一個移工的經濟成本是3萬元我們現在的少子女化最大的問題是我們的年輕人背了房貸 他的可支配所得如果聘了 大家都覺得要聘移工才是孝順那我們可以想像兩件事情"},{"start":4479.316,"end":4495.259,"text":"對老人來講你讓他提早的失能對青年來講他經濟上的一個負擔性的部分所以我們其實才會回來要怎麼鼓勵宅老人到社區打卡應該是新的潮流而不是再一個潮流是所謂孝順就聘義工"},{"start":4496.1,"end":4516.393,"text":"這是我們在談的照顧解方的部分當然持續使用服務的狀況我想勞動部長照師都一直在努力追蹤服務使用的狀況提供滾動式的配套處理特別是大家擔心的突發狀況的夜間服務的部分怎麼樣讓他已經使用長照但他夜間有"},{"start":4517.794,"end":4542.239,"text":"針對現在的移工改變一對一而是變成是他隸屬於公司等等的部分向我們的居家服務來才是一個重要的事情而且不應該他自聘才回來所以我們最大最大的問題是面對日本強人同工同酬加永久居留權我們的本國籍長照服務會備受衝擊我們已經努力了這麼久我們的本國籍的照服員已經往上上升到將近10萬元了"},{"start":4543.999,"end":4558.024,"text":"其實我們非常擔心像長照系各式各樣的部分我們很擔心這樣的一個狀況所以要怎麼降低我們對24小時保護性的部分整合在地服務是一個關鍵所以我們還是要講照顧勞動力是保護資源那剛剛其實都有談到中階移工的薪資跟工作條件我們還是會鼓勵"},{"start":4564.927,"end":4565.588,"text":"陳正芬教授,接下來請臺灣生智政協會陳雲進秘書長發言"},{"start":4591.588,"end":4599.753,"text":"主席各位先進大家好非常榮幸藉由這個機會然後很高興可以代表臺灣施治症家庭來這邊關心這個議題主要的話首先先談談施治症家庭"},{"start":4617.588,"end":4639.999,"text":"因為照顧的特殊性其實我們在聘僱外籍看護的需求是非常高的那其中在照顧跟溝通的挑戰也很大因為我們在認知功能下降大家可以理解在記憶力、判斷力、語言能力的變差會造成我們在互動上面以及生活上面的需要提升那另外在精神症狀最新的流行病學調查裡面"},{"start":4641.619,"end":4668.405,"text":"有6x6以上的失智者在他的病程之中出現精神症狀跟問題行為可能造成有幻想、遊走、焦慮、重複行為跟日夜顛倒等等的狀況所以失智者在他尚未失能的時候就需要長期的安全監視的比例是較高的尤其他們很可能在輕度的時候就有走失交通還有財務安全的風險"},{"start":4670.151,"end":4692.369,"text":"一本會目前直接服務的超過200位個案以上我們有調查了一下有超過三成目前有聘僱外籍看護那同時也結合使用其他的社會資源那在失智家庭在聘僱外籍看護時其實是一個常常處於弱勢的身份那我相信這個稍後許多的民團也會表達這樣的立場"},{"start":4693.63,"end":4722.578,"text":"那尤其因為在照顧的方面比較難去了解失智者的特性跟照顧的方法所以在照顧的時候很容易受挫留任率低使得失智者家庭不斷變換看護那我們在這邊有許多跟這個外籍看護討論的例子或是家庭的經驗其中例如說他說我請伯伯坐著先不要站起來但短期記憶一旦就是喪失了他馬上就站起來就立刻跌倒"},{"start":4723.258,"end":4742.597,"text":"這樣的情形一天兩天持續的不斷發生外籍看護覺得壓力非常大那另外他們自主性很高的狀況下有可能告訴你說我現在就是要開車我現在就是要開車出去我需要駕駛所以在這樣子的議題之下其實會造成照顧上面的一些負荷"},{"start":4743.337,"end":4761.831,"text":"另外外籍看護可能會因為在需要比較高量能的一個照顧模式下會需要有許多時下的一些加薪的行為這樣造成我們的實質家庭需要花更多的費用來去聘僱外籍看護這個其實已經是實務上面常見的樣態"},{"start":4766.092,"end":4795.164,"text":"所以針對這個外籍看護聘僱制度的意見在臺灣施政協會這邊提出以下三點第一點應謹慎的來去評估開放是不是造成供不應求為確保施治症跟其他高度需求的家庭免於排擠免於照顧的排擠尤其不只高齡者才有高度需求在場有其他名團之外年輕型施治者在臺灣也已經超過一萬四千人這些年輕型的家庭他們遇到的是許多"},{"start":4795.704,"end":4814.141,"text":"年長的父母為由擔任他們的照顧者同時他們還有在工作跟其他經濟上面的壓力另外剛剛也提到不是所有的健康長輩都需要高強度的這樣的一個支持那當然如果在這個年齡之上他同時是具有獨老老老照顧等等的高度需求的身份"},{"start":4814.537,"end":4833.949,"text":"我們當然建議他應該也要優先可以被採納有這樣使用的需求另外我們不鼓勵過度依賴外籍看護照顧建議妥善結合運用現有的多元資源包含社區資源來維持自立還有社會互動達到預防及延緩失能失智的目標"},{"start":4834.85,"end":4853.665,"text":"最後建議加強外籍看護及家庭教育的訓練包含語言文化照顧技巧還有協力照顧的合作的部分我們瞭解到這個提案其實利益良善但從實務來看需要很很謹慎的去考慮還有重視確保不造成排擠效應謝謝好謝謝台灣施治政協會陳秘書長的發言接下來請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":4876.495,"end":4894.349,"text":"主席還有各位學者專家還有我們立委同仁還有我們行政同仁大家早台灣現在有請外籍看護就是外勞在家裡照顧的有將近23萬多的家庭23萬幾戶這23萬幾戶"},{"start":4901.147,"end":4926.539,"text":"是有需要現在也在請一個外勞進來他的薪水是兩萬多塊兩萬一兩萬二如果假日他沒有出去還要加薪給他另外一算還要幫他保健保保險還有就業安定費還要管吃管住一個外勞一個月的費用差不多要三萬幾塊可能還要多"},{"start":4930.885,"end":4932.348,"text":"今年差不多要四十萬這二十三萬的家庭今年開的錢定於九百二十億九百二十億喔那這些人不是玩八蛋啊他們不是白癡啊"},{"start":4945.857,"end":4968.691,"text":"這921已經比我們一年的長照用公務預算還多那剛剛師長跟我講台灣在用長照ABC的家庭差不多人差不多都有50出頭萬嘛你多少共50萬嘛他有在用私製的多少剛剛沒有跟我講那這樣他一年的預算我沒有記錯是700多億那這些請外勞的家庭他已經跟我們分攤了900多億啊"},{"start":4975.479,"end":4989.102,"text":"這些家庭：年輕人每天去買經濟：老人家在家了解起來：想輸藥是在陪伴這些老人家第一就是給他照顧日常還有陪伴他24小時最怕的是老人家是怕跌倒因為一個老人家如果跌倒現在骨質疏鬆他就骨折"},{"start":5004.572,"end":5023.479,"text":"開刀、臥床、就疲累了差不多要死了一個骨盆腔或大腿骨骨折我們是外科醫師如果沒有給他開刀他就臥床他動都痛很快就泌尿道感染很快就入床我們有統計活不會超過半年開刀只是固定開刀最重要是固定再來是慢慢復健再來做輪椅等等"},{"start":5033.22,"end":5060.251,"text":"越老的越需要你現在A長照ABC的來是只有來一小時來兩小時看一看就拍拍屁股就走人請問其他的22個小時誰陪他獨居的很多呢我們東港鎮裡面獨居就要多了所以這些是有需求的人他來他當然是有需求沒有在吃飽心有空給他多錢"},{"start":5061.584,"end":5089.043,"text":"那年輕人可以去拚經濟那我說不對所以我跟大家報告也不用講到那麼的嚴重他有需求他去請那以前的巴士量表就是很麻煩剛剛陳清惠醫師有講等一下王振旭醫師他會不會講我不知道我臨床醫師我一天到晚沒人要開就獨來我這裡我就好好評估會不會做假當然會做假"},{"start":5089.997,"end":5102.006,"text":"他來就做倫理來啊表現到最嚴重的程度給你看啊你看到也是那個現在為了要完善還要兩個護理人員一起打溫宿我覺得這個很繁瑣啦然後衛生局的長照小組的再來評估一次等等會覺得讓醫師擔當很大壓力那現在因為"},{"start":5119.138,"end":5126.081,"text":"80歲以上80亮表示55分所以就比較寬鬆以前35分真的是王八蛋訂出來的幾個人可以符合所以這一直在改是好事那在選舉的時候"},{"start":5137.096,"end":5141.498,"text":"我以為他就提出來80歲以上不用納檢報費80歲以上不用巴士量表歡迎很好我們的執政黨馬上跟進馬上開放剛剛次長講的幾項幾項多元評估等等巴拉巴拉的那柯文哲也提了就是說為什麼因為有這個需求性嘛我再講一句另外一句兩萬銅鉤你拚不拚一份啊"},{"start":5165.834,"end":5181.637,"text":"日本是同工同酬啊日本的老人一個月可以拿三萬五千塊的老人給付我們去考察好幾次差三萬五拿到他就去安養中心安養中心四人房就三萬五台幣兩人房就是五萬多塊台幣單人房就七萬多塊台幣這樣要住兩人房你就要擺隊就要自己搭所以日本的安養院"},{"start":5195.56,"end":5199.982,"text":"我去看十間 名古屋啦 大阪啦 八王子區等等都排隊 譬如說一個八王子一個安養院它是可以收370幾個 外面排隊的900多個那請問這些老人在哪裡 就在家裡 就在家裡那日本人又不喜歡出那些嘻嘩嘩老人家啦大媽跳街舞 他們不喜歡 他們都靜靜的在家裡"},{"start":5223.925,"end":5231.313,"text":"所以日本的社工 最主要的事情就是常常靠電話 私立出席一個禮拜 沒人知道在民國有看很多所以每一個族群 有沒有一個族群不一樣 有沒有一個國家不一樣 國群日本人就不敢出來外面 被人欺負"},{"start":5243.055,"end":5248.2,"text":"臺灣人以前可以老人扶 媽媽搬就能出去所以這萬丹你萬丹人 萬丹人就很多所以我要說的就是不一樣 她有訴求的家庭我們有些委員怕她有錢就要叫一些人來陪伴 我想那種的情形不多啦現在她說她的爺爺挑僱主 挑什麼叭啦叭啦的"},{"start":5268.308,"end":5277.195,"text":"那看你跟他的互動好不好嘛 對不對我們老婆已經95歲我們就像看護在照顧我 我覺得很好啊非常好啊所以這就是你家庭自己顧足你自己的心態嘛所以也不要把這個80歲以上免80亮表看得那麼嚴重啦你後面還有配套你的長照小組也可以常常去看嘛我跟你講齁"},{"start":5294.468,"end":5300.63,"text":"你有種的話你政府把這23萬現在拼外勞的家庭都借過去你有沒有辦法沒有人開高保規要開期貿的另外一個來第二張slide我要跟大家報告的大家不要仇視繳稅多的人這對大家的講話很大台灣的家庭戶數662萬戶沒有繳稅的喔沒有繳稅的"},{"start":5325.799,"end":5327.68,"text":"佔了44.16%兩百九十二萬毫沒在交稅一千萬加零數一千萬進所得才一萬一千八百七十六萬負佔總數的0.18%但是這些人呢繳了多少繳了22.6的所得稅那五百萬以上的"},{"start":5351.946,"end":5355.569,"text":"才四萬九千副這兩組人加起來負了四十幾趴的所得稅所以盲點點的籌付我覺得這些人要祝福 鼓勵繼續賺錢 繼續交稅讓我們台灣這幾十幾百人可以得到比較好的照顧而不是一天到晚肉麻一通我跟你講最會罵的就這一組人 最會罵"},{"start":5381.857,"end":5398.389,"text":"拿最多的補助不繳稅然後天天嘩嘩叫天天幹掉人所以這個data很清楚所以大家要珍惜就像美國總統講的這些有錢人繳多一點稅所以國家有貢獻不然每天都要買差不多10年都是這樣所以我對他們非常尊敬希望他們賺多一點繳多一點"},{"start":5410.188,"end":5413.01,"text":"接下來請中華民國家庭照顧者關懷總會陳潔林秘書長發言"},{"start":5447.503,"end":5447.663,"text":"主席"},{"start":5466.477,"end":5486.733,"text":"三年過得很像那為什麼講這件事情我想我首先要表達一個感謝就感謝國民黨在去年的大選的時候其實先先開啟了巴士量表的這件事情巴士量表過去確實太嚴格所以他必須要放鬆他必須要改革甚至他必須要討論要不要有巴士量表要不要"},{"start":5489.355,"end":5502.259,"text":"就改成長照的評估單軌化就好了那這個是需要討論但是呢今天的這件事情其實有一個很後面的後座力正在引發那我先講一下家總是1996年成立到今天28年來我們就是關切一個議題就是家庭照護者的議題那也不好意思好也在這個一直在倡議三件事情不離職照顧"},{"start":5514.182,"end":5517.045,"text":"不必然自己照顧家庭不要失和因為我們即將進入一個零家庭照顧的時代"},{"start":5520.373,"end":5546.543,"text":"那這個主題巴士亮表這個主題其實是有一些思考要想的第一個是到底外籍看護是一個稀缺的資源還是豐沛資源如果等一下看你會發現近年來最多每年增加一萬人所以我們有能力再多增加嗎那如果他是稀缺的他應該優先給誰用是全面開放還是給真的有需求的照顧需求的人用"},{"start":5547.223,"end":5552.808,"text":"還有如果外籍看護都很足夠當然我們可以大大的開放可是我們可不可能搶贏別的國家那如果搶不贏的話會不會變成全台的網內互打就是現在的21.4萬的雇主流動就是舊的這些雇主間流動所以我想有個大前提是要請國民黨提案的這些委員們可能要幫忙思考一下"},{"start":5571.463,"end":5584.792,"text":"我覺得不是不能放寬而是我們稍微停下來用多一點時間來評估這個後座例因為首要是外籍看護工的充足性是很重要的那我有幾張圖表我可以大膽的跟各位說一定會有這個連鎖效應開始有新的僱主說爸媽現在滿80歲就可以聘我找一個來順便可以做家事然後外籍看護有開始同鄉之間開始有留言出現老闆我想去更好的地方因為可以做比較輕鬆的家事工作"},{"start":5600.863,"end":5606.768,"text":"最後影響到舊僱主屏東有630000名現在正在聘的僱主所以蘇委員的選區中也立刻會有這個問題其實長照在這幾年來確實有大幅的增進那他的增進其實也產生了一個現象就是人力比剛剛有幾個數字我就套上一個最新的數字就112年602億在長照外籍看護大概是花到500多億"},{"start":5629.167,"end":5640.15,"text":"到700多億那這個是用一個月兩萬到三萬推估可是你會發現一件事人力比在大缺工時代長照創造了1比4.6的人力比"},{"start":5640.655,"end":5640.995,"text":"外籍看護1比1"},{"start":5666.661,"end":5686.109,"text":"五十三萬健康長輩進場搶工之後會產生什麼問題重度的家庭首當其衝今天等一下會有身障聯盟會有一些自力生活的組織我想這個是真的他們在疫情階段就已經深受其害第二個現在在使用長照服務的人口"},{"start":5686.969,"end":5713.245,"text":"可能都會產生一些問題而動口不動手的話長輩的生活自理能力會不會快速的下降而且看護其實去做家務會不會幫庸化挑案變得更嚴重最後一下原來即便在使用長照的人會不會想一想說還有一個看護回家可以順便做家務還蠻划算的所以他也產生移動等一下我們的居家服務聯盟可能就會講我們對居府員會不會造成衝擊"},{"start":5714.105,"end":5715.165,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":5737.893,"end":5766.673,"text":"因為你造成了一個加碼戰你造成一個加碼戰好真正需要是什麼在這邊加總也要請願其實真的不要巴士量表了他是一個落伍的量表在不同的階段我們需要的是直接長照2.0評估而在不同的評估的定義下譬如說第7級以上困難照顧找不到長照資源我們可以給他聘外籍看護所以應該是用巴士量表那巴士量表為什麼落伍其實在身障裡面就看到111"},{"start":5767.814,"end":5795.009,"text":"一百一十年上路的身障評估他已經從單由醫師的評估改變成一個團隊來評估從身體的障礙類一直到生活類都要所以我想我在這邊總結來講兩件事希望即刻這個政策要先停下來不是說不做可是要先停下來想一想他的衝擊想一想那個衝擊是包含各個委員都會收到來自全國的民怨"},{"start":5795.669,"end":5796.709,"text":"請就業服務商業同業工會全聯會林益生秘書長發言"},{"start":5836.588,"end":5857.526,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好我是那個大概就是仲介工會全聯會的秘書長我今天就簡單就三個提綱直接回答問題直接提供我們的意見就是第一個關於提綱一我們的意見想法是"},{"start":5858.727,"end":5887.451,"text":"無論是哪一類的照顧需求者高齡者癌症患者或重症失能患者需求者同級家人都是主政者的心頭肉所以滿級其照顧需求都一樣是刻不容緩所以站在政府的立場及其戰略高度不是考慮優先把照顧資源給哪一類的需求者而是如何滿足所有人的需求"},{"start":5889.313,"end":5891.021,"text":"目前以本會徵詢會員的那個結論、結果來看"},{"start":5894.625,"end":5920.068,"text":"就是就外籍看護工就印尼看護工家庭看護工輸出來看輸出還算穩定就是每一個個案大概都有十幾張履歷表可以挑選所以尚無缺工之餘長期以來各移工引進國家家庭內的均以幫優模式引進居多只有我國是以看護工為主引進"},{"start":5921.189,"end":5949.398,"text":"如果說大幅鬆綁僱主聘僱資格會影響重症失能家庭之照顧資源那我們國家大部分的家庭被照顧很早以前就找不到移工了我們是無法競爭的其實雖然說外籍照顧資源固然不成問題但是有一個潛在問題必須要被有效解決就是重症家庭引進外籍看護工後常被視為跳板"},{"start":5950.851,"end":5956.76,"text":"然後轉往照顧高齡者就是簡單說是陪伴工作或者是其他工作較輕鬆的案組"},{"start":5959.107,"end":5983.56,"text":"主要是因為目前的轉換雇主規定較為寬鬆我改了這個詞我不想用得太嚴厲移工間有樣學樣因為通訊軟體發達所以假後到修補根本的噪音其實是同仇不同榮所以我們想建請勞動部研議"},{"start":5984.901,"end":6006.015,"text":"不同工不同酬的看護工外籍看護工制度就像是護理之家的住民一樣他會依照其照護需求程度有不同的收費跟費用但是如果不同工不同酬如若實施我們還建議政府給予重症家庭或經濟弱勢者適當的薪資補償"},{"start":6010.178,"end":6026.272,"text":"薪資補助以減輕取等之負擔111年8月10號的時候就業安定基金管理會通過勞動部規劃的家事移工建議調薪方案雇主的心頭痛"},{"start":6028.367,"end":6047.386,"text":"由每月薪資1.7萬元調高至2萬元說調就調OK勞動部同時宣布自當日起新招募引進或期滿續聘轉聘的家事移工適用調薪薪資並同時提供聘僱看護移工的"},{"start":6049.042,"end":6077.742,"text":"低收及中低收或依身心障礙權益保障法領取生活補助之僱主薪資補貼每月三千元最長補貼三年所以薪資補償已有案例可循故見請勞動部延續此方案並將重症或其他照顧需求較高者納入以不同工不同酬"},{"start":6079.645,"end":6086.035,"text":"緩解視重症患者為跳板的這個情況這是我們的第一個建議關於"},{"start":6093.516,"end":6122.012,"text":"提綱2我們一樣直接回答問題就是問題應該大家手上有不重複意見如果問題的關鍵差異是成相差距那關於聘僱申請程序的反映程度並不是最重要的問題一樣都是別人在申請不會是僱主自己申請最重要的問題是成相差距造成聘僱後的管理有所差異"},{"start":6123.693,"end":6152.073,"text":"對比疫情前後引進的外籍看護工現今受聘僱外國人自我意識較高對於自身權益及申訴管道相當熟悉簡單說他們很有能力挑僱主所以外籍看護工跟僱主的磨合期從疫情前的1到3個月延長到普遍延長為6個月或更久"},{"start":6153.495,"end":6177.345,"text":"行政作業本是仲介業者所擅長聘僱或管理如有需求必須一再磨合外籍看護工與重症家庭關係或是24小時待命週抽勞頓前往偏遠地區服務再再揭示仲介業者日常所限針對那個提案3"},{"start":6178.891,"end":6199.95,"text":"我們的意見是解決移工失聯風險調合外籍看護工和長照制度引進及引進外籍看護工前最重要的問題當然是如何解決空窗期的問題能夠第一時間看見僱主的需求或是被照顧的需求有能力處理短期照顧能力派遣"},{"start":6200.97,"end":6229.762,"text":"同時還能妥善管理及照顧外籍看護中自然式人力仲介我簡單的說結論就是我們希望建請勞動部能修改外展看護工的規定遴選一定引進外籍看護工規模、評鑑成績良好或是兩年內無違規的仲介業者準以雇主資格並按其一定期間內引進外籍看護工平均人數合配相當比例的外展"},{"start":6232.152,"end":6246.984,"text":"或能配合長照機構的照護訓練能量制定合理短期照護申請制度及費用標準方可發展出全新的外籍看護工短期照顧模式以上謝謝大家好謝謝就業服務商業同業公會全聯會林益生秘書長的發言接下來請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":6270.15,"end":6293.867,"text":"主席還有我們政府部門還有今天來的專家學者大家好本來我們辦公室問我要不要在公聽會發言因為我說還是來講為什麼今天講的幾乎都是在我們質詢的時候都已經談過了一而再 再而三再談可是還是要來談大家都知道我們現在就是搶工"},{"start":6294.646,"end":6322.414,"text":"不是在國內搶工還跟其他國家去搶工那日本呢事實上從1993年之後他用技能實習的這樣的一個方式然後再配合移民政策然後移工大概高達70萬那今年呢再度的大量演進將近增加到80萬那當然韓國也不遑多讓也就是說他們大概因為採職聘制度呢大概現在已經有160萬人"},{"start":6324.209,"end":6348.272,"text":"那我們如果今天即便台應的MOU簽下去也會先小規模的只增加1000人我相信各位剛剛已經一直在聽到53萬53萬即便53萬的人都不會用的話那大概5萬就好那我們也是造成很大的問題所以不是振奮老師不行因為這有一點問題"},{"start":6349.008,"end":6349.468,"text":"主席"},{"start":6367.544,"end":6378.55,"text":"整個實施到今年4月的話8個月以來大概申請的看護的人6.2萬當中其中有3.2萬事實上是用多元免貧"},{"start":6379.284,"end":6402.353,"text":"那其中80歲大概有2.3萬人大概將近七成左右的這樣的人可是到底這樣子已經放寬了所以我們覺得如果是這樣的話真的是放得太寬因為換句話說今天"},{"start":6403.306,"end":6429.52,"text":"我本來對這個就有疑慮就是放寬這個資格的時候基本上只要使用長照6個月然後那每個月只要使用一次就符合這個標準那換句話就是重度需求者為了聘僱的話未來事實上是會把價錢跌得更高所以在這種狀況底下就一共的人數有限我們現在只有23萬在我們的看護"},{"start":6431.75,"end":6459.476,"text":"那剛剛蘇清泉委員講說大概如果以這樣的價錢一個家庭要付到40萬他認為不會有人去可是我要講移工在人數有限的狀況底下這個工資事實上是會跌高在疫情期間的話我有朋友他在學當學當老師他因為要照顧媽媽然後要找移工5萬塊聘不到人"},{"start":6460.389,"end":6486.653,"text":"那抱歉那這樣子就是80萬不是那個蘇委員講的40萬而已另外一個重度需求者會留不住移工也聘不到人那我最擔心的應該是因為我不管在過去民間我們在基金會工作或我剛進立法院的時候碰到一個狀況就是年輕人來上班一個月兩個月他說他要回家因為爸爸中風"},{"start":6487.341,"end":6509.557,"text":"或者是媽媽住院為什麼犧牲他因為他事實上是收入最低的他就是剛出來社會3萬塊啊為什麼不是犧牲哥哥姊姊因為哥哥姊姊薪水最高可是我們國家如果栽培一個碩士然後呢甚至大學然後呢結果他因為要這樣回家他這樣回家只要一年就好"},{"start":6512.612,"end":6512.632,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6528.479,"end":6553.248,"text":"聘僱的方式要有選擇權一方面照顧到這邊一方面也照顧到當地的人是不是他可以不用去透過仲介繳交的費用如果他有能力的話那不用去做到所以我們會認為說不是只有台印可能其他四國可不可以考慮這五國都能夠完備直接聘僱的一個機制來讓"},{"start":6555.028,"end":6555.048,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6567.469,"end":6571.13,"text":"臺灣現在就是有這個職聘可是呢牽扯到各部會的話沒有在這系統當中非常難用還要簡化程序還要加掛移工的資格評選跟"},{"start":6597.901,"end":6599.622,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6621.656,"end":6621.816,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6648.96,"end":6676.423,"text":"這個大概是一個歷史脈絡可是我們認為私人聘僱跟公共照顧應該是互補的 怎麼說呢 下一頁是不是移工長照這個照顧雙軌制應該互相跨越 大家現在目前本來希望有 要有可是後來就我們的政府部門不認為需要 後來那大家目前現在已經事實上可以用到所謂的"},{"start":6677.145,"end":6677.165,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6691.124,"end":6719.55,"text":"八四量表還是八十歲為什麼這麼講所以我剛剛還非常贊成緊林秘書長講的就是說我們應該就是來討論那個很難用的而不是一直在講八十歲以上全部免聘應該是我們去檢討八十量表才不會衝擊到我們的移工的照顧政策裏面否則雖然剛剛提說五十三萬不一定會聘"},{"start":6720.049,"end":6748.282,"text":"可是有情的不一定不會聘這個是讓我們擔心那就會造成年輕人跟長輩的關係有錢的人聘了他就把長輩80歲反正我也不用怕他在家裡會不會跌倒了反正我就丟給這個我們的移工還有事實上我也非常贊成前面有幾位專家學者講的也就是剝奪老人生活的能力本來我80歲好好的所有的我的事情現在都由移工來"},{"start":6749.417,"end":6749.597,"text":"主席"},{"start":6773.963,"end":6775.424,"text":"臺灣身心者 自立生活聯盟常務監事 段可維"},{"start":6824.65,"end":6852.712,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6854.44,"end":6855.341,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":6877.25,"end":6896.515,"text":"公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法"},{"start":6900.937,"end":6901.677,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6925.073,"end":6951.371,"text":"這次會議發生時﹖又沒有一首不下﹖往下的配合或是一首歌﹖或是一首歌﹖或是一首歌﹖或是一首歌﹖或是一首歌﹖或是一首歌﹖或是一首歌﹖"},{"start":6952.592,"end":6953.793,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6980.871,"end":7009.611,"text":"公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽委員：通知社會福利及衛生"},{"start":7010.592,"end":7010.613,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7019.351,"end":7036.263,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．事由：舉行"},{"start":7044.567,"end":7044.587,"text":"公聽會．議員．議員．議員"},{"start":7060.254,"end":7060.934,"text":"國務委員會主席"},{"start":7082.044,"end":7082.064,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7094.192,"end":7094.232,"text":"公聽會委員："},{"start":7124.172,"end":7124.195,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7125.077,"end":7134.922,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會議"},{"start":7155.113,"end":7162.297,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":7185.367,"end":7192.448,"text":"公聽會員：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會議"},{"start":7213.922,"end":7215.145,"text":"本會議主席主席"},{"start":7223.1,"end":7252.103,"text":"公聽會．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會．立法院第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會�"},{"start":7253.035,"end":7253.881,"text":"我可以啊"},{"start":7256.632,"end":7285.305,"text":"最后一件事：作為方面的訪問：我們認為在政府的陷阱：香港的生活層面：應該顯得是結局領域不足的問題：再一件事：作為國際社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":7286.843,"end":7287.564,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7303.619,"end":7322.373,"text":"普遇和公職不符合這個需求的各個物品和各個來物是已有所謂公益和探討的普遇。謝謝大家。"},{"start":7327.248,"end":7334.315,"text":"謝謝臺灣身心者自立生活聯盟常務監事段可為常務監事的發言那我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8039.687,"end":8050.782,"text":"我們現在繼續開會接下來請中華民國身心障礙聯盟 洪新平秘書長發言"},{"start":8058.037,"end":8071.453,"text":"主席在座各位好我們聲音障礙團體是主要就業安定基金的金主之一今天就從聲音障礙者在使用外勞方面來跟各位做報告"},{"start":8073.415,"end":8102.256,"text":"首先根據10年的衛福部調查生意障礙人口裡面有照顧需求的人大概是68萬不過大部分現在都還是住在家中需要照顧者大概是59.2萬那這其中69.5%是由家人照顧外看是12.9看起來比例不高但其實大部分我們都是用把外籍看護作為補充式人力照顧也就是家裡本來就有一個照顧者然後再請外籍看護來做一些協助"},{"start":8103.136,"end":8121.036,"text":"中間也有一些限制分不同的障礙類別比如說如果是認知能力或注意能力有問題的話其實他也不適合作為單獨雇用外籍看護來使用服務大家都可以理解如果沒有辦法都沒有辦法知道說怎麼樣好好照顧自己的話外看更不知道要怎麼樣去照顧"},{"start":8122.611,"end":8132.424,"text":"那在110年大概有社福移工這邊人數大概是22萬點5但是22.5萬但是其中也包括一部分是機構這邊去做聘僱"},{"start":8137.258,"end":8159.07,"text":"現在長照進入2.0可能要進入3.0了在11年公佈了長照裡面生意障礙者的使用狀況原則上我們已經超過一半的長照總使用人數裡面超過一半是生意障礙者各個等級都有也集中在年齡比較高的障礙者65歲以上"},{"start":8159.73,"end":8184.779,"text":"那最多當然神經肌肉骨骼也就是有移動困難的身心障礙者為主然後再來的話才會是神經系統和心智功能不過很微妙的是就是這邊衛福部的資料也做了一下統計非身心障礙也就是沒有拿到身心障礙鑑定證明的在照顧服務的使用上比較高那有身心障礙鑑定證明通常年齡分布也都比較低"},{"start":8185.479,"end":8212.154,"text":"我們反而在專業服務、交通接送、傳行服務上使用率比較高也就是我們身上者在使用服務是很聰明的我們知道說怎麼樣應該說外勞沒有辦法去替代的服務是我們想要使用的重點那當然怎麼樣提升功能比如說這邊看專業服務提升自己的功能交通服務然後增強社交傳行服務是真的有外開的時候需要休息這個部分反而是我們比較常去使用的項目"},{"start":8216.894,"end":8242.631,"text":"前面委員大概有出算到底外籍看護要多少錢我們這邊就直接做精算這個是基本的一個是單次的登記費不超過他一個月薪資然後再來是聘用包括薪資勞健保啊就業安定基金啊這個部分還有因為外籍看護來台灣是直接住在雇主的家裡所以還有時數的雜支那一個月總支出的話大概是3萬2到4萬左右的平均"},{"start":8244.352,"end":8266.407,"text":"但是這邊有一個大家都不敢講的事情為什麼大家會去聘用外籍看護?外籍看護有這麼好用嗎?因為所有的外籍看護工作時間都不止每週40小時如果今天限制大家每天8小時上下班像我們所有台灣正在工作的人一樣我想大家就不會覺得外籍看護在這個薪資之下是非常好用了"},{"start":8266.647,"end":8267.207,"text":"外籍看護有工作選擇權"},{"start":8285.422,"end":8300.841,"text":"那之前前面講外籍看護其實是一個還算蠻貴的照顧那為什麼還會有生意障礙家庭一定要去聘僱我說的是一定喔他沒有長照的選擇喔那多半是他有長時間或是高密度需要照顧需求的案主"},{"start":8301.462,"end":8324.059,"text":"他不見得照顧的負擔很重但他可能是需要比如說長時間的陪伴行或是他30分鐘需要扮一下身或是需要抽痰或是需要夜間服務那這個部分呢因為現在的長照服務還沒有辦法開到這麼好的人力滿足比如說像急血損傷或中度失智所以這個部分他必須要用外籍看護來做補充人力那另外就是家庭照顧難度高"},{"start":8325.16,"end":8350.922,"text":"譬如說岸竹的體重過重或是他有一些攻擊行為那這個是一般居家服務員可能也不太願意去接受的然後家裡可能沒有替補的照顧人力像我一個小孩要去扛兩個父母這樣子另外很重要的前面講每個月三萬二到四萬還不算說我們現在為了搶人還要加獎金那這個部分如果你沒有一定的財力如果是中途受傷可能會有一些保險金或賠償金的話其實你沒有辦法去評估"},{"start":8352.043,"end":8353.184,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整"},{"start":8364.943,"end":8383.901,"text":"我們所有的外籍看護其實沒有適當的訓練但是他剛來台灣就要去照顧上限去照顧程度最重然後時間最長的案組我就簡單的講挑工的原因是為什麼只有有體育啦 排泄物的啦大家都不太願意去照顧不管本國或外國比如說要抽痰的或是要肝油球排便的"},{"start":8384.281,"end":8399.382,"text":"那即便是居府員在做這樣子的服務的時候他其實是要經過專業訓練可是外籍看護進來完全不用欸大家有沒有去思考說為什麼對他們勞動權益來說不是一個很好的保障可是對我們家屬來說卻是不得已的選擇所以我這邊想提的是"},{"start":8400.223,"end":8419.594,"text":"應該說我們外籍看護進來這麼多年現在其實就已經是長照裡面不可或缺的補充人力了不管是正式或是家庭裡面那我們應該要把它納入體系不要讓僱主再去獨自承擔管訓用這樣子的責任那現在其實慢慢都在開口比如說走動式的照顧服務或是同居共聘這個狀況"},{"start":8421.215,"end":8421.776,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8441.678,"end":8463.525,"text":"在場委員還有媒體這邊去做呼籲我們現在財力不佳跟照顧排斥度最高前面講的最重度的家庭在整個開放之下應該說在還沒有開放之下就已經是嚴重排擠的效應所以真的是為他們去請命怎麼樣去彌補這些照顧負擔最重家庭的缺口發展長照服務去支援才是未來比較健全的手法"},{"start":8464.485,"end":8464.906,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":8497.601,"end":8519.819,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員各位專家學者還有各位官員大家好很高興有機會透過公聽會也謝謝趙薇的安排讓大家有更多的機會針對於今天的議題包括就業服務法家庭外籍看護聘僱制度這相關的探討那"},{"start":8521.58,"end":8549.841,"text":"我相信大家面對這個問題其實心情都很沉重也希望透過政府有更好的政策來解決這樣的困境我本身之前是在醫院服務我照顧的全部都是癌症的病人所以他的家人的照顧的確相對來講是非常非常的辛苦當他需要聘請醫工的時候很多的醫工他們的確也耐苦耐勞"},{"start":8550.942,"end":8566.175,"text":"很希望把要照顧的對象照顧好可是當他在醫院裡面看到不同的照顧對象的時候相對來講他就開始會有一些不同的想法出來這個就是我目前面臨的可能性"},{"start":8567.857,"end":8594.318,"text":"剛剛素卿權委也知道﹖也提到說長者都有機會需要被照顧到尤其當他80歲以上的時候可是他的想法裡面認為這些長者他可以自己選擇要不要被照顧所以他可以透過各種不同的需求來滿足每一個人的需要"},{"start":8594.918,"end":8612.31,"text":"那當然我們也知道當全面放寬了以後如果這些被聘僱進來的移工他沒有選擇的時候相對來講這是人性不能夠去責怪任何人說為什麼我要照顧好的照顧對象"},{"start":8613.351,"end":8636.275,"text":"而不想去照顧比較困難的對象這個其實所有的專家學者都已經討論的非常多那還感謝專家學者提出來當一個健康的長者不管他幾歲80歲也好85歲也好甚至90歲也好當他能夠自己照顧自己的時候他其實是一個最好的方法"},{"start":8636.875,"end":8657.095,"text":"不管從文獻上面從接地氣的這些本地的研究還有我們所接觸到自己的長者也都有這樣的潛能他可以照顧自己的時候事實上真的可以不需要在第一時間就要請到其他人來照顧他因為這樣他才有"},{"start":8657.655,"end":8684.406,"text":"還有他最好的健康愚民的生活方式所以針對今天的議題其實當初賴總統在政見的處理當中當他被問到說對於80歲以上的長者都免付巴士量表就能夠申請移工的看法是如何他是認為說其實巴士量表是需要被改善的"},{"start":8685.206,"end":8699.087,"text":"需要有好的建立多元的標準對家庭照顧者提供喘息服務的面向來針對於未來臺灣的長者需要做照顧的一個訴求所以不是說"},{"start":8700.749,"end":8727.569,"text":"直接80歲以上就用這個年齡來當作一個免聘的標準這個我相信透過今天的這個公聽會大家的意見會越來越趨於一致認為說這個是需要維持現有的制度的同時他也希望透過衛福部跟勞動部擬定更好的策略來幫助社會這些長者當他需要照顧的時候尤其是對於現在的家庭形態"},{"start":8728.47,"end":8756.866,"text":"如果是雙薪家庭或子女需要工作無法長期在家陪伴的情形之下我們需要擬定了一些方法那即使勞動部跟衛護這段時間也針對這個要求擬定了相關的免貧的多元措施那這個剛剛岳勤委員也提得非常的清楚所以其實移工跟長照真的是要爽鬼的互補才能夠讓臺灣對於長者的照顧建立一個更好的制度"},{"start":8757.786,"end":8782.236,"text":"能夠讓我們的長者很放心的在這個過程裡面不要讓我們年輕的這一代因為他們年長了而造成一種好像無法陪伴那種內心的壓力或者是帶來一種比較相對來講是比較難克服想要去持續工作持續照顧家庭的部分"},{"start":8782.916,"end":8806.046,"text":"所以今天很謝謝專家學者們提供很多好的意見我相信將來我們在不管請勞動部或是衛務部制定相關策略的時候我們有更好的依據的同時我相信國會的同仁也會根據大家的意見未來在做法案的修正的時候做一個最好的參考以上 謝謝"},{"start":8807.639,"end":8814.958,"text":"好謝謝王振旭委員的發言接下來請臺灣居家服務策略聯盟理事長土星林理事長發言"},{"start":8825.902,"end":8841.33,"text":"主席各位先進大家好我是臺灣居家服務策略聯盟理事長首先就今天的公聽會做一些分享居府聯盟是2010年10月20號成立我們主要在做偵測倡導居府網絡平台以及我們的服務品質的提升"},{"start":8842.33,"end":8848.752,"text":"那大家可以看到這個數字這個是這個衛福部最新的一個數字就是我們臺灣目前在長大年齡發展之下我們總共照顧服務員成長3.9倍那其中呢居家照顧服務員成長了5.3倍社區的照顧服務員成長15.3倍我們花了這麼多的精神力氣希望能夠提供本國籍的就業那我們現在必須透過一個還沒有非常成熟的政策然後要把它變成把這些就業權然後一次要求就打"},{"start":8871.42,"end":8890.649,"text":"打光了 那這個基本上其實對於我們本國籍的就業其實是非常這個不利的再加上我們這幾年成長的過程當中我們過去照顧服務員在105年包括1.0時代的時候我們的國小可能都是國小畢業生但我們現在基本上有博士生 碩士生 高中生 大學生都是進來基本都是高中生"},{"start":8891.189,"end":8908.943,"text":"那我覺得在這樣的情況之下我們的照顧服務已經不再是所謂大家以前講的這個好像是在某一個階層以下的這個職業它是一個非常專業的職業那大家可以看到這部分我接下來今天所有的照片麻煩各位請翻拍使用它是有這個銷量權的大家可以看到我們臺灣這幾年這個本國節照顧服務很努力"},{"start":8913.707,"end":8940.536,"text":"第一我們要讓我們的服務對象把拐杖拿掉讓他可以恢復到不需要長照的服務第二他本來透過一些做家事的狀況以及剛剛亞美老師所談的我們能夠讓他能夠在生活當中然後促進促進他所謂的各種的可能性再來你可以看到最右邊那張三個我們的這個高齡長輩他們自己去決定他的生活自己決定他想要在日照中心做哪些事情"},{"start":8940.776,"end":8940.796,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8964.477,"end":8964.497,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8984.068,"end":9002.098,"text":"另外一部分在我們去年10月份放寬這個規定之後大家可以看到在我們的食物的現況其實有三件事情第一件事情就是我們使用半年他就結案那這個結案完之後他可能不到一個月他又來開案因為第一個是他覺得這個整個使用需求可能不符合他"},{"start":9002.558,"end":9002.618,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9020.8,"end":9021.221,"text":"開放的輕度失職者"},{"start":9036.543,"end":9036.563,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9062.322,"end":9062.362,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9087.115,"end":9088.436,"text":"那我們都在談的是這個缺工到底缺工的定義是什麼"},{"start":9113.12,"end":9121.086,"text":"我四月份五月份去了越南去做演講我們找到了這個當地第一個第一大跟第二大的這個輸出的這個培訓單位目前的他跟我說過往他們的輸出到臺灣來但這幾年他們輸出到哪裡去他們"},{"start":9128.666,"end":9152.039,"text":"我講個數字好了他們輸入到台灣是2萬人輸出到台灣是2萬人輸出到日本是7萬人即使是到日本他們需要這個受訓的人他需要花6個月的學費必須得到N4日本日文的這個檢定但是呢這些人還是願意去日本首先是一個制度問題因為日本是職聘"},{"start":9152.859,"end":9180.553,"text":"所以聘用的單位他直接是到越南去做這個聘用另外一部分在受訓的6個月當中我們的日本的單位他可以給什麼不管是長照的單位不管是餐飲單位他其實是每個月會給這個培訓單位管理費的那所以呢對於這個很多他覺得雖然他到日本他需要通過語言檢定可是他還是願意花這個6個月那比台灣只要花2個月培訓的期間多了4個月3倍的時間"},{"start":9181.693,"end":9181.853,"text":"A咖B咖"},{"start":9196.57,"end":9225.152,"text":"可能都已經到了日本甚至到了德國目前德國已經到了越南印尼印尼去招工所以呢我們好的人才他可能都輸出過已經給什麼給只要我的申請程序能夠減輕然後還有就是我的這個輸出的那個國民他到了當地國家的時候能夠生活得很好的時候基本上他們都輸出到那個國家去那臺灣真的沒有對我們的這個外籍朋友非常差我們其實待遇沒有低而是我們可能有些行政程序的這個繁瑣"},{"start":9226.133,"end":9227.494,"text":"反而是什麼我們的外籍朋友在那邊聊天"},{"start":9253.576,"end":9280.755,"text":"但我們的長輩他其實什麼自己陪伴自己所以我們的陪伴的定義是什麼缺工的定義是什麼必須要開始來講清楚因為呢今年48年次入到65歲2026年是50年次的人入到65歲假如我們65年次65歲沒有改變的話再來明2026年是我長照2009到了最後一年那2026年是臺灣21%的超高齡時代的開始所以降低失能率才是我們應該討論的重點以上謝謝"},{"start":9285.934,"end":9292.986,"text":"謝謝圖欣玲理事長的發言接下來請國立中山大學管理學院助理教授張恆彥張教授發言"},{"start":9303.024,"end":9329.519,"text":"主席各位先進大家好我是中山大學管理學院的老師所以我會比較用管理學的這樣的角度來切入我們今天討論的因為剛剛很多先進都已經分享了不管是以長照的部分還是以這個勞動力的部分那我在想就算我們今天不開放80歲的這個需求還是存在那這個需求一旦存在的話會影響什麼呢我們以最簡單的供需原則來看就好了"},{"start":9329.799,"end":9329.819,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9355.628,"end":9375.621,"text":"請他們來臺灣的雖然有一部分已經去日本但我們自己門心自問假設今天我有兩個工作可以選一個是留在臺灣一個是在日本一個在美國我們自己會選哪裡所以那不完全只是薪資的一個條件而是你居住的環境跟你對自己未來的一個想法那剛剛有老師提到說北歐我們很希望自己學北歐但是其實剛剛蘇委員有提到"},{"start":9378.783,"end":9406.71,"text":"臺灣人自己的生活方式是怎樣我們要先自己瞭解比如我們是不是想要在家我們是不是想要跟長輩生活長輩是不是比較不喜歡出去北歐啊不要管北歐的生活條件本來就跟我們不一樣光是他們出去路是比較平的他們的居家環境也是比較寬敞的可是臺灣真的不是所以我們當然是要有一個很好的願景但是我們可不可以做得到這個我們不大確定然後再來我們今天還有另外討論的重點是要不要開放80歲以上的免巴士糧表"},{"start":9409.61,"end":9430.756,"text":"平均漁民 平均79歲男性76歲 女性83歲所以我們在討論80歲以上的人沒有那麼多可是我們要的就只是讓這些已經80歲這些鳳毛零爪的人雖然沒有真的還是有好幾十萬但是其實就是讓他們可以方便而已那他們還是會自己去衡量他們到底要不要聘家庭看護"},{"start":9431.836,"end":9431.856,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9451.673,"end":9479.813,"text":"這所有制度使用下我覺得最好的就是有一個外籍看護帶我們私人的家人出去到日照中心所以有人陪伴那我們這種少子化的家庭我也不怕他在家裡面是不是跌倒或者是他不願意出去因為像我父親是失智症我媽是癌症所以這是兩個比較困擾的一個疾病那失智症他在初期的時候他其實是可以行走的問題是他可能不知道他的方向感在哪裡所以我們為什麼可以放心地工作是因為我知道有人在家陪他"},{"start":9480.253,"end":9480.293,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9500.086,"end":9524.297,"text":"那我們在回家到從工作回來的時候我們也可以再協助把這樣子一個賦能的機會去完成所以長照跟家庭看護這兩個本來就不應該是互賜而且應該是相輔相成的但是我必須要有足夠的看護工進來我才可以讓我安心的去工作那我們剛剛提到很多東西就是那看護工為什麼會需要來臺灣然後有沒有辦法把他留下來照顧重症呢"},{"start":9524.617,"end":9524.637,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9549.182,"end":9549.202,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9569.531,"end":9570.771,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員．完整會議公聽委員．完整會議公聽委員．完整會議"},{"start":9599.558,"end":9599.578,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9621.855,"end":9622.275,"text":"逃逸外勞"},{"start":9641.864,"end":9641.884,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9660.555,"end":9660.615,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9680.822,"end":9706.148,"text":"可以隨便打工的機會非常非常多他當然不會留在現在的這些地方來照顧所以我們要增加的是什麼呢增加他的留任意願然後減少他可以轉換工種轉換到其他業別的這樣一個部分那當然完整的履歷照護今天他如果很有完整的履歷照護包括像這個職聘我可以看到他照顧過怎麼樣重症的老人作為他未來被我聘僱的這樣一個方式當然會讓我可以更願意去用他"},{"start":9707.048,"end":9721.935,"text":"那所以呢我們這些所有的長照資源應該要去設計一個符合照護者需求的那我們這個整個看護還是居服員都一樣要留才留任在這個照護產業要不然說實在現在的居服員他有在打掃啊"},{"start":9722.295,"end":9722.375,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9739.456,"end":9765.95,"text":"讓他可以去申請讓他去使用所以我們有可能要用一個外展制度那所以外展制度的話呢我也希望是由衛福部來做這樣的訓練因為我們現在勞動部設計的一直都是把他focus在雇傭關係勞動這樣子的一個爭議上面可是如果是衛福部我們可以比較他像這個訓練居扶員一樣我是不是有一些完整的教育訓練讓他可以一樣再像我們學校有學習禮遇一樣我可以看到這個人受夠什麼樣的教育訓練"},{"start":9766.51,"end":9766.85,"text":"其他部分包括最後做一個結論"},{"start":9784.105,"end":9784.285,"text":"委員會公聽會議"},{"start":9807.395,"end":9807.515,"text":"以上 謝謝"},{"start":9832.947,"end":9844.834,"text":"好 謝謝國立中山大學管理學院助理教授張恆彥張助理教授的發言那接下來請臺灣外籍工作者發展協會徐瑞熙理事長發言"},{"start":9846.779,"end":9871.287,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位這個夥伴大家好今天我們來參加這個會議其實是感慨良多我想要先解釋我想要就是先談一下就是移工團體事實上今天來的移工團體大概勉強來算的話大概只有我們那我們要談的是我們是希望能夠就是就幾個部分也先跟各不管是長照的專家或者是僱主的團體這邊還有委員"},{"start":9873.087,"end":9873.428,"text":"家庭看護工"},{"start":9889.385,"end":9908.092,"text":"24小時的工作甚至於很多的家庭看護工一個月最多休假一天這其實對任何一個人來講都是非常不合理的工作制度你如何希望一個看護工他這麼疲累的一個情況之下然後你希望他可以好好的來照顧這個"},{"start":9909.729,"end":9933.926,"text":"照顧這個顧主然後第二個我們也常常在呼籲一個問題家庭看護工進到私領域去之後碰到了什麼我們在機構裡面有制度有機構的一些勞保相關的一些制度工作的排班但是事實上一旦進入到這個家庭裡面之後進入到私領域之後事實上是很少有這樣子的一個權益的一個保障"},{"start":9935.336,"end":9946.762,"text":"譬如說之前報導者曾經做過一個調查有一部分的家庭看護工在家裡在家庭照顧的時候受到了性騷擾"},{"start":9948.595,"end":9977.407,"text":"那這個部分呢因為他有一個工作工作的一個需要以至於他沒有辦法去把這樣子的一個沒有辦法去申訴這樣的事情因為他可能就會被換走甚至於在仲介的那一端他們就不主動的去協助然後讓這個移工所以移工也只好忍氣吞聲那這些都是我們在照顧現場裡面很大的一個問題我接觸過一些臺灣的家庭就是居家服務員他們也會說阿公有些時候去也會碰到這樣子的一個騷擾的問題"},{"start":9978.687,"end":9995.252,"text":"但是這一類型騷擾的問題就沒有像看護工這麼樣子的嚴重跟直接那另外我們要談的常常我們也在談的就是一個看護其實是一個高風險的一個工作大家覺得照顧陪伴"},{"start":9995.832,"end":10010.871,"text":"這些可能都是很優質的一個我們希望得到一個很優質的照顧可是我們確實也看到就是說有一些這個照顧的這個品質的風險其實是很高的所以在這個部分上面你知道我們有一些看護工為什麼"},{"start":10011.451,"end":10033.638,"text":"為什麼他不照顧重症者因為我照顧重症者如果有一些照顧的一些方式不對了或者是突然無預期的過世他也很可能會惹上官司啊所以這些都是他們在第一現場他們為什麼不願意照顧有蠻多的原因當然我們要回歸到另外一個就是市場的問題其實現在的看護工跟以前很不一樣"},{"start":10035.097,"end":10060.081,"text":"很多時候我知道有些僱主會說為什麼勞動部每天要發這麼多的這個跟看護工講他們那麼多的這個勞動權益可是你知道嗎現在的看護工每一個人人手一支手機其實他們要得到這些資訊太容易了就算勞動部不發這個資訊那難道他們不知道嗎你知道在流傳在這個看護工裡面的這個群組他們的Facebook上面"},{"start":10061.844,"end":10071.716,"text":"這一類型的資訊其實是非常的多那所以我們要講的就是說我們再也不能夠像過去一樣我們認為只要我不提供足夠的資訊這些勞動資訊給看護工他就不會跑了"},{"start":10077.523,"end":10099.948,"text":"所以剛才有幾位就是專家學者他還提到我們也非常的贊同就是我們如何希望就是讓這些重症的這些被照顧者能夠讓他減少就是減少他的這個移工逃跑的問題我覺得這個部分確實是需要慎重的去評估政府需要去評估是不是要給予他一些這個經費的一些補助"},{"start":10101.628,"end":10129.273,"text":"我覺得這個問題真的是非常現實我們到移工在現場目前勞動部好像規定說就是兩萬塊可是你知道在現場在臺北的看護工他可能一個月的薪資不算加班就已經兩萬五兩萬六了那請問你在南部的山上在偏遠鄉區那邊照顧的人他不會看手機看到原來我的朋友在臺北一個月薪水兩萬六還可以放假"},{"start":10129.833,"end":10149.169,"text":"然後呢還可以陪這個老闆出國出去玩到台灣哪裡玩然後我在山上陪伴一個只有一個老人全部都是我要陪伴所以我覺得我覺得我們在就是說在這個部分上面我們認為長照的這個制度一定要把移工的部分不要只是認為他是勞動部的問題"},{"start":10152.062,"end":10174.103,"text":"很大一部分我們的衛福部也要進來那所以剛才在講到就是說接下來的外展的看護工也把甚至於我們回到最簡最基礎的家庭看護工我覺得機構的看護工還有這個機構可以做一些訓練然後這個接下來的外展我們不知道現在勞動部怎麼樣來設計這個外展的看護工甚至於就是這個"},{"start":10174.804,"end":10202.305,"text":"短期的這個看護工讓他們來擔任這個短期的工我們不曉得他會怎麼設計但是我們誠摯的希望衛福部必須要進到這個場域裡面來如果你希望看護工有一個好的服務你再也不能夠讓勞動部只是在他的網站上放幾支這個影片放幾支怎麼照顧服務的影片那這些部分其實這不是勞動部的專業所以我們會覺得其實在衛福部這一個部分"},{"start":10202.645,"end":10206.008,"text":"你如何的就是把自己的一些照顧的專業也放到這裡面來但是我們要講的是說"},{"start":10211.889,"end":10237.596,"text":"還有另外一個就是剛才講到的這些都是一些迷思的問題我覺得在政策上面還有一個很重要的就是我們的這些移工其實這一段時間以來從今天早上經濟部部長也在講是不是台電要開放使用這個移工了那麼大量的一個開放移工的狀態之下我們到底政府勞動部這邊的移工的一個管理的平台到底是有沒有發揮它的效能"},{"start":10238.596,"end":10254.465,"text":"剛才有一個委員提到了韓國這邊已經做了一個比較所謂的一戰式的我看到勞動部的新聞也提到他們做了他們現在改善了很多一戰式的服務可是就我們移工團體在接觸不同的工種甚至於只光是這個這個看護工這一段"},{"start":10255.225,"end":10279.753,"text":"一個你要申請一個事情你可能就是一個平台勞動部有很多一站式的平台有很多一站式的服務請問一下我們的我們臺灣號稱這個智慧型的這個醫化的服務的大國我們的公共服務的這個醫化一站式的智慧平台的部分可不可以讓我們的僱主更為方便那那麼多的移工要進來了我們要講的是說那"},{"start":10282.634,"end":10283.355,"text":"許瑞熙理事長"},{"start":10313.649,"end":10328.342,"text":"好 謝謝主席還有各位與會代表那今天我們召開公聽會其實是源自於我們現在立法院有好幾個版本是針對這個八四良表的一個修正希望能夠在80歲以上能夠免這個八四良表"},{"start":10333.186,"end":10333.666,"text":"長者及幼兒"},{"start":10350.111,"end":10369.731,"text":"那麼家庭看護他們的申請之困難其實已經成為臺灣社會的一個非常非常長期的民怨那這也就是為什麼在去年的時候大家都知道總統大選的選舉那麼侯友宜他是其中候選人他提出來"},{"start":10370.751,"end":10370.991,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10389.136,"end":10392.097,"text":"但是即使是如此這個問題就解決了嗎當然沒有解決那麼事實上我們今天看到我們在民間有多少如果我們今天將心比心我們設身處地大家可能要自問能不能夠去接受這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":10409.741,"end":10423.775,"text":"譬如說也有醫生跟我講為了要申請巴士糧表有的有90歲的哥哥帶著這個80歲的弟弟去申請巴士糧表拜託醫生能夠開給他"},{"start":10425.476,"end":10425.496,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10455.576,"end":10455.937,"text":"我特別要講"},{"start":10480.56,"end":10501.943,"text":"我們的外籍家庭幫傭的申請之困難我們可能很多專家寫者他可能有很多的命向要照顧可是今天以我們的申請家庭幫傭的這些標準最近還有一個年輕人跟我講"},{"start":10503.066,"end":10531.359,"text":"他說他的太太馬上要生三胎了我說很好啊我覺得在這個少子化的過程裡面我只到覺得年輕人願意生小孩願意生到第二個願意生到第三個我都覺得政府應該頒獎狀給他才對然後他就跟我抱怨他說因為呢即便是他的太太即將要生小孩可是因為好像他的這個老大已經到6歲了"},{"start":10533.47,"end":10552.495,"text":"6歲不滿6歲他仍然不符合相關的規定還是沒有辦法申請所以如果我們今天看到我們這些相關的規定你要知道他有多麼嚴苛我來給大家看一些實際的案例來看一下要怎麼樣的方式我們才能夠申請到呢"},{"start":10558.482,"end":10582.529,"text":"你可能要有兩個兩歲以下的子女你要去照顧一個兩個兩歲以下子女應該很辛苦了吧不行你還要再加上一個78歲以上的長者你才能夠申請到然後我另外一個案例那你要同時有一歲三歲五歲可以了吧對 不要說對一個媽媽啦"},{"start":10587.113,"end":10610.239,"text":"父母加起來有時候有公公婆婆來幫一歲三歲五歲是不是很辛苦想也知道很辛苦我自己有三個小孩我還好我的三個小孩都長大了我看到這個我都覺得他們很辛苦你能申請到嗎不行還是沒有辦法達到你還要加一個79歲以上長者"},{"start":10612.554,"end":10638.471,"text":"也就是說如果你家裡有長者要同時你有小孩的話你看這樣的狀況你才能夠申請到無怪乎現在我們有這麼多的這個年輕的夫婦不願生小孩他怎麼辦呢剛才也有特別提到說如果啊我們這樣子的開放的話可能對於健康的老人會被排斥什麼叫做健康的老人"},{"start":10642.765,"end":10661.085,"text":"最近大家都看到這個美國總統大選我想對於拜登總統來講他一定不會說他是不健康的老人他一定健康的老人可是如果你的父母出現了像拜登總統這樣狀況隨時隨地有可能跌倒你覺得"},{"start":10663.769,"end":10689.035,"text":"你放心讓他在家裡你放心如果你家裡是沒有電梯的對不起很多都沒有電梯對不對他隨時隨地上下樓梯他就跌倒了他可能到超市他突然走不出超市來這樣的狀況請問一下你作為人子女你覺得你該怎麼照顧他你放心讓他一個人嗎你該怎麼辦"},{"start":10693.207,"end":10704.555,"text":"辭職在家嗎我真的有很多朋友為了要照顧他的父母最後我都覺得他好優秀但他沒有辦法他說沒有辦法這樣子的民眾他該怎麼辦所以當你講說健康老人會排斥有時候我在想為什麼八十兩秒這麼困難好 我自己作為一個女性"},{"start":10718.723,"end":10746.428,"text":"我要講的是我們作為女性在臺灣長期以來的問題就是我們的婦女的勞動參與率的偏低而且隨著年齡尤其30歲以後你的勞動參與率就漸漸下降為什麼你要回復到如果你有小孩你就可能要照顧幼我剛剛講嗎你生了三個我覺得這個國家真的應該感謝你用什麼樣方式來感謝你"},{"start":10747.54,"end":10747.56,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10770.93,"end":10796.262,"text":"幫這些我剛才所講的這些狀況能夠幫忙想一想任何一個人自己設身處地是同樣的狀況的時候我們該怎麼辦所以這也就是為什麼我們要提出這個八十兩表的修正事實上我個人我覺得不止八十歲以上的八十兩表修正甚至幼子女的也一定要放寬啊不然我們憑什麼去跟年輕的夫婦講說請你們生小孩請你們生小孩我怎麼生啊"},{"start":10799.924,"end":10800.244,"text":"接下來請劉許廷委員發言"},{"start":10830.5,"end":10853.947,"text":"謝謝主席今天來出席就業服務法家庭外籍看護聘僱制度探討公聽會的所有先進夥伴大家午安這個台灣老年人口數快速增長根據內政部最新的統計資料65歲以上人口415.8萬人佔總人口17.8%老化指數147.9%各縣市老化的程度前三名嘉義21.9%第二台北市21.3%第三南投縣"},{"start":10858.648,"end":10884.836,"text":"20.3每5個人就有1個是高齡人口未來114年我們將邁入超高齡社會老年人口的比例超過20%而到民國145年預估老年人口達到37.5%人口快速老化帶來的衝擊面向非常多它不是個人的議題而是社會全面結構的衝擊因此建構符合高齡者的長期照顧需求其實不是問題而已而是立刻必須被解決的問題"},{"start":10885.976,"end":10909.888,"text":"除了老年人口快速上升施能的老年人口也隨之增加現在已達120萬人這個已經不是超前部署而是要立刻解決的問題伴隨少子化的問題我們的撫養比居高不下相當於每位青壯年目前照顧0.8位老年人也會更高尤其施能老人的照護更是家屬龐大來源之一為了解決照顧的迫切需求並減輕負擔"},{"start":10911.369,"end":10911.689,"text":"每一個家庭"},{"start":10940.283,"end":10960.405,"text":"因應這個長照的杯葛 私人照護的困境女性的參與率因為這樣受到影響都是現在在社會各個角落都在發生的立即性而且迫切性的問題換言之正因為如此我們認為在綜合各方的想法跟考量之後放寬相關的門檻還是要先走"},{"start":10960.905,"end":10963.766,"text":"現在是巴士量表針對日常生活失能與否的評估"},{"start":10985.637,"end":11000.239,"text":"實際上顯然啊這個需要照顧的人不是不是只有失能者這我們剛剛說過了失智或者是重大疾病用巴斯量表好像也不一定評估的出來所以換言之有很多人在講是不是應該讓巴斯量表回復診斷證明的功能而不是變成聘護"},{"start":11001.06,"end":11023.129,"text":"並故外籍看護的一個資格審查的硬性門檻並且應該要利用失能的程度評估作為給予長照補助的標的這我想大家都更加的專業所以積極的評估擴大多元免評的適用範圍採取多元認定的方式免除巴斯亮表的評估這我想政府應該也做了若干的作為那追根究理都還是要簡化"},{"start":11024.045,"end":11053.429,"text":"民眾在申請聘僱外籍看護工的程序我想這個方向我們樂觀其成這個我們也希望是雙軌並進另外針對外籍看護人力聘僱條件的鬆綁有些人會擔心有所謂的排擠效應有器重則輕這確實是有這樣的可能但是不能因為這一點就把立即性的有照護需求的家庭拒之門外這我想是民意代表的責任必須要如實的來做反應所以我們要求政府應該要有更多的配套相關措施不管是讓重症難照顧者"},{"start":11053.689,"end":11072.739,"text":"有更多的補助提高待遇給相關的看護工或者是轉介長照居家服務剛剛我們有教授講非常好應該是透過導引的方式如何整合這兩軌讓外籍看護跟現有的長照政策能夠做銜接讓它變成相互支援的一個模式我想這也是一個可以朝向的目標"},{"start":11073.78,"end":11093.877,"text":"最後我本席認為家庭的外籍看護聘僱已經逐漸從補充了人力慢慢變成主力這是一個大家雖然覺得有點遺憾但是這個現實我想勞動部不應該只是把它變成家庭跟移工之間的聘僱關係而是應該要去思考負責任的管控外籍看護的這些的長照品質"},{"start":11094.657,"end":11115.841,"text":"並且給予更好的專業訓練剛剛我們也有學者專家有提到日本的門檻硬性門檻比台灣高很多但為什麼人家還是願意去呢這個是值得深入探討我們是不是能夠合理的提高專業訓練的強度讓未來能夠進來的這些移工更有相關的專業素養跟品質我想這我們也是非常同意的"},{"start":11116.341,"end":11142.318,"text":"並且更重要的是勞動部應該要跟衛福部一起整合長照資源讓民眾能夠有效而且便利的來運用最後我們才能夠打造勞有所終這個友善老年人口的這個社會本期樂見外籍看護聘僱制度的鬆綁解決老年人口照顧的迫切需求也要解決青壯年人口的負擔期望勞動部與衛福部在聽了今天大家不同的意見之後肩負責任整合照護資源"},{"start":11142.958,"end":11154.53,"text":"不管是外籍看護或是長照機制都要有更細膩、更完善的配套措施以致改善以上謝謝好 謝謝牛許廷委員的發言接下來請王育民委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":11165.047,"end":11167.491,"text":"今天出席的專家學者還有代表還有我們的委員跟官員我想有關於今天公聽會的主題其實是很重要的議題因為臺灣要面臨這個高齡社會"},{"start":11180.267,"end":11202.691,"text":"那其實我們整個長照體系的檢討包括外籍看護工的聘用這當中現在持續的在擴展但是持續也有一些問題產生所以事實上從早上到現在我也聽了非常多專家學者的一些意見那首先我想要謝謝在第一線其實今天很多專家學者包括團體大家長期第一線都在長照體系做出了非常大的一個貢獻"},{"start":11208.919,"end":11209.019,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11224.477,"end":11224.577,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":11242.225,"end":11242.385,"text":"公聽會主席"},{"start":11259.409,"end":11266.013,"text":"是我們現在長照體系本來就存在的議題包括其實大家講的就是有一些重症的家庭他就是比較難照顧而這些外籍看護工他應該得到什麼樣的訓練什麼樣的支持系統什麼樣的支援政府的角色又在哪裡那我們才可以讓這一些重症家庭聘了家庭看護工之後"},{"start":11280.783,"end":11281.903,"text":"政府對於這些重症家庭"},{"start":11309.045,"end":11310.333,"text":"就是我們提供什麼樣的服務"},{"start":11311.249,"end":11329.643,"text":"是不是只要一個重症家庭他聘了一個外籍看護工之後政府就都不管了這就是你的事你自己來那我覺得這樣是不對的所以有關於大家一再的去考量說重症家庭會不會找不到工他的這個看護工應該要怎麼樣給他一個好的訓練讓他可以久任我覺得這是一個重要的議題而因為今天的公聽會也因為之前大家的討論我覺得衛福部也好勞動部也好針對這個部分"},{"start":11341.274,"end":11341.844,"text":"要有一個"},{"start":11343.077,"end":11370.706,"text":"專門的計畫提出來解決大家的問題因為這個是現在已經存在的問題而不是因為開放80歲以上免巴士量表之後他才會產生的問題我想這個大家要理清所以根本的問題我們就應該要根本的來處理跟解決我覺得這個才可以真的要去呼應到這些重症家庭的需求這是一個面向另外一個我要講的就是80歲以上的老人家"},{"start":11371.626,"end":11387.318,"text":"開放這個巴士量表的部分為什麼他必須要推動而為什麼總統候選人他會提出來就是因為人民覺得有需要如果今天所有的80歲以上家庭的人他都覺得我們現在的這個制度很好"},{"start":11388.118,"end":11388.138,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11407.606,"end":11430.436,"text":"政府應該要正視我們所有的服務體系檢證辨明是非常重要的看看我們現在的制度多麼的繁複我們是在為難這些有需求的家庭所以為什麼有委員要提出這樣子的一個檢證辨明的措施讓有80歲以上的這些家庭有需求的家庭可以省去舟車老頓"},{"start":11432.366,"end":11459.601,"text":"那這個就是政府要去思考的為什麼這個政策一喊出來修法喊出來之後在民意上是獲得壓倒性的支持就是因為民眾覺得現在的政策不夠好現在太反覆這個也是為什麼逼的現在勞動部說我們要更去簡化那個過程評估的過程所以很多的制度我們的推進都是因為從民眾的需求我們看到問題我們可以不斷的"},{"start":11462.843,"end":11487.502,"text":"提出政策的建言讓他更進步但是不會因為今天開放的這件事情就會去壓垮我們的長照體系我想這個也太沉重不至於到這樣我們去回顧我們過去開放外籍看護工跟我們的長照體系這兩者是並存一直走到現在我們的長照量也持續在擴大我們的外籍看護工也持續在增加為什麼"},{"start":11488.888,"end":11492.714,"text":"因為我們的需求也不斷地在增加所以大家真正該去思考的是未來我們的老人家還要更多比例還要更高需求還要更大而現在我們政府所建構出來的服務量能足以因應嗎"},{"start":11505.404,"end":11505.804,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11523.422,"end":11537.962,"text":"光靠本土所建構出來的長照體系也不足以服務所有有需求的這些這個長者的家庭所以未來我們應該建構是什麼一個多元的服務體系一個服務量能充足的服務體系"},{"start":11538.843,"end":11543.087,"text":"一個簡正便民的服務體系在長照服務的過程當中不要去為難任何的這一些案家而政府就是要服務人民所有過程反鎖不必要的都應該要去除我覺得這個應該是我們共同去追求的目標所以很感謝今天我知道的公聽會我覺得臺灣我們未來"},{"start":11562.344,"end":11563.304,"text":"謝謝王育民委員的發言接下來請李燕秀委員發言"},{"start":11598.4,"end":11598.58,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11616.149,"end":11640.996,"text":"今天網路上觀看關注這個議題的所有的好朋友其實他們更有更多不同的想法如果大家曾經在基層跑今天很多委員也提到了很多不同意見聲音更多現在是雙薪家庭也是三明治世代那背負的上有老下有小現在的長照的體系長照2.0時段性的"},{"start":11644.031,"end":11645.632,"text":"我自己是上班族"},{"start":11658.697,"end":11658.817,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11681.687,"end":11708.364,"text":"其實一定面臨這樣的狀況而且接下來面臨這樣的狀況在少子化10年20年的狀況之後我覺得會更多這樣子的狀況跟情形所以簡便化的去處理我們現在的長照長者聘僱外籍看護的需求是我們的目標所以當然它也可以減少更多的醫病的對立所以今天對於這樣的修法方向我個人是相當支持跟認同"},{"start":11709.224,"end":11730.179,"text":"包括我在基層聽到更多這樣的聲音包括我最近在跟大家報告巴士量表的改革 制度的調整基層都跟我說 非常感謝你我至少跟我兒子女兒有一個更好的交代他們可以好好上班 把小孩子照顧好以後不用擔心我太多不用週車勞頓 不讓我一家一家一家一家去跑讓我確認再確認 這次沒通過 下次要再來一次"},{"start":11734.282,"end":11758.467,"text":"這個對於所有身為子女的上班族來說面臨到這樣的狀況他很痛苦他也不願意見到但是他在上班的過程當中其實壓力其實是非常大的所以過去在第8屆跟第9屆的時候其實我也關注到勞動部當時要開放輕度失能長者要聘僱外勞看護的時候部分民進黨的委員其實有擔心說外籍看護的"},{"start":11759.667,"end":11759.687,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11787.165,"end":11787.185,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11817.625,"end":11817.786,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11839.386,"end":11839.446,"text":"第57條第3款"},{"start":11856.196,"end":11873.307,"text":"僱主聘僱外國人不得指派聘僱外國人從事許可以外的工作其實我們現在就有相關的法規可以去做把關如果僱主把外籍看護當幫傭勞動部就可以依法介入廢止聘僱許可而且可以裁罰做處理"},{"start":11874.548,"end":11874.908,"text":"以上是我的意見 謝謝"},{"start":11903.769,"end":11915.376,"text":"好 謝謝李燕秀委員的發言那今天這個學者專家級委員的發言發言完畢那現在請行政機關做整體的回應是不是先請勞動部回應好 時間3分鐘"},{"start":11925.042,"end":11949.057,"text":"謝謝昭偉今天辦了這個公聽會然後現場這麼多的團體來參與我們很感謝各位學者專家以及各位團體代表的建言那麼因為今天我請我的王安邦王次長他是督導這個我們相關的這個業務的主要次長那麼他全程都在現場我也請他來跟各位的訴求來做一個統一的回應好嗎謝謝"},{"start":11955.34,"end":11981.45,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位與會的團體代表謝謝今天很多學者專家給我們勞動部有很多的建議不過我全程聽下來其實大家的歧義沒這麼大我們大概有幾件事情是大家共同的共識首先第一個就是針對被照顧者的需求國家的照顧責任不能被免除我想與會所有不管是委員或者是學者團體代表大家都同意這件事情"},{"start":11982.29,"end":11982.531,"text":"長照1.0 長照3.0 整體政策"},{"start":12000.43,"end":12019.24,"text":"全球大缺工狀況在移工的人力或人才的競組我們確實要跟全世界來競爭這大概跟過去幾年的狀況不太一樣也很謝謝團體提供其他移工輸出國來源的數據以臺灣對日本來講我們就差了三四倍之多"},{"start":12020.12,"end":12041.973,"text":"那在這樣的前提之下 即使移工的資源 家庭看護者的資源 它其實是一個有限的資源那在行政部門的立場 在有限的資源裡面 它如果沒有做一個標準的審核它很容易變成 第一個就是團體提到弱弱相殘 第二個就是也會有反向攻擊的問題"},{"start":12042.953,"end":12070.407,"text":"我想今天與會的專家學者也都給我們這樣子的建議所以對我們而言我們也贊成過去大家外界委員都提到八次量表也許它有很多需要調整所以勞動部也跟衛福部合作我們包括在去年的10月開始做了多元的免貧措施這個多元免貧的措施我一開始的報告也跟各位委員還有與會代表報告說我們希望在9月我們可以再做一波的檢討"},{"start":12071.608,"end":12089.664,"text":"我相信不管是朝野的立委也都支持他其實應該雙綁但今天我們的差異其實是在於我們認為可以雙綁可以調整也可以檢討但是單就一個80歲來作為一個年齡的分野以及劃分的標準這恐怕是略顯不足"},{"start":12090.365,"end":12090.545,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12108.712,"end":12108.912,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12131.544,"end":12131.884,"text":"接下來請衛福部回應時間3分鐘"},{"start":12156.283,"end":12179.708,"text":"感謝今天各界給了非常多的一些意見那我大概聽下來整理大概有兩大面向希望衛福部這邊可以來研議思考第一就是有關聘僱移工的這個準否是不是可以納到長照評估CMS這個是一個議題那第二部分看起來就是希望說移工整個能夠納為長照體系來成為長照人員"},{"start":12181.408,"end":12181.848,"text":"創造CMS評估"},{"start":12207.091,"end":12228.604,"text":"那其實他的目的其實是很重要的是要配置國家的資源就是整個的長照資源要輸送到宅大概這樣的一個概念那基於配置國家的資源這塊他必然就會比較嚴謹跟民眾自己付錢去請一個引進一個移工那個條件要求標準必然會有不同"},{"start":12229.284,"end":12244.27,"text":"所以目前如果以這樣的一個想法的話會跟現行聘僱移工希望朝向放寬然後的這樣一個民意的想法完全是背離所以這件事情是首先先提出來說有這樣的一個想法"},{"start":12245.191,"end":12254.319,"text":"至於就是說到底現階段大家對於這個過往公佈的這個需要醫療診斷的這個證明大家簡稱叫八十兩表它事實上外界真的是誤會了整個醫療專業評估的這件事情就業服務法裡面要為服務部這邊去處理的事實上是一個叫做病證及失能診斷證明"},{"start":12268.072,"end":12294.039,"text":"它是屬於醫療法裡面的醫師開立的診斷證明這個是醫師的一個工作的權責所以其實在去年醫師公會全聯會也正式行文要求說這樣的工作是醫師的專業不能限縮或者不能開放給其他人員因為那是醫療法規範的那針對為什麼大家一直覺得它是一個巴士量表它事實上巴士量表只是裡面的一個副表"},{"start":12294.979,"end":12298.483,"text":"這個副表示針對醫師就醫這個病人的病症他的一個診斷狀況之後事實上有一些勾選的項目也有一些開放的項目那個是醫院醫師的專業那這個巴士亮表只是輔佐他有這個實體裡面輔佐他針對他這樣的疾病他這樣一個身體的狀況"},{"start":12314.901,"end":12337.472,"text":"他去勾選他的得分用這個得分來判定說他屬於完全依賴呢還是屬於嚴重依賴的還是屬於中度還是屬於輕度還是完全獨立大概只是讓醫生在最後有這樣的一個評分的一個依據所以他真的不是叫做巴士量表來決定能不能來請移工他還是要重申是醫師的一個專業的醫療診斷"},{"start":12340.253,"end":12361.5,"text":"那對於有關剛剛特別提到說移工希望納到長照體系成為長照人那這件事情就有更是知識體大了因為整個的移工引進是就業服務法就業服務法的中止其實就是要保障國人那對於這個比較國內不願意從事的工作才有開放的這件事"},{"start":12362.04,"end":12387.195,"text":"所以現階段在長照體系裡面我們住宿是機構因為要輪三班國人真的比較沒有醫院投入所以現階段也已經把這個移工進到住宿型機構的都變為是長照人員那現階段進到長照住宿機構的這些他其實就適用勞基法那也跟國人的這個照顧服務員同工同酬那這個部分都沒有問題也必須要有一些相關的繼續教育"},{"start":12388.656,"end":12390.337,"text":"現階段我們國人居家跟社區從105年1萬多人到現在已經6萬多人事實上成長"},{"start":12405.206,"end":12417.116,"text":"成長6倍這樣的一個本國的照顧服務員那剛剛前面先進有提到其實相關的那個教育水準其實提高我們國內也非常多的學校成立紛紛成立長照相關科系其實就是為了來協助我們的高齡社會後續的這些照顧人力的一個培育讓他品質更高那現階段如果希望把移工整個納到我們的長照體系成為長照人員的話"},{"start":12433.008,"end":12452.191,"text":"這20幾萬大軍一下子就把我們努力了2.0這幾年下來的成果可能都會摧毀那現階段這樣的事情真的知識抵達大家得把它想清楚那我們現階段也不是說外坑我們絕對就是不考慮讓他可以進到長照體系剛剛講的住宿機構我們已經讓他進來了那未來我們也考量因為我們照顧長輩其實口語的表達溝通其實是重要的所以我們也在規劃"},{"start":12461.853,"end":12479.387,"text":"中階的這樣的一個移工我們希望能夠瞭解他整個語言的溝通技巧跟相關的照顧技巧之後我們會逐步來讓他可以到我們的國人比較願意待的這樣的一個居家跟社區的場域來工作那我們會逐步來做處理"},{"start":12481.548,"end":12481.568,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12504.167,"end":12504.187,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12524.043,"end":12537.89,"text":"不可能政府買單所以這個也必須要很嚴格的嚴肅的提出來大家就要去想清楚因為整個的一個選擇聘移工跟使用長照我們其實都是申請制都是民眾自己的選擇那在自己的選擇狀態下"},{"start":12540.771,"end":12555.482,"text":"有可能如果通通要關注到移工的薪水必須學日本這樣跟本國的同工同酬的話相關的成本必然拉高那這個是要全民大家一起來面對的問題那我想這個議題其實是非常複雜的因為我們畢竟移工是民國78年就開放引進的那跟現在長照體系其實是從這個"},{"start":12565.59,"end":12593.03,"text":"2.0其實106年開始1.0時期這個其實因為規模比較小所以大家的習慣怎麼樣能夠把它改變過來那剛剛有先進也提得很好真的最好的長照政策其實就是不要使用到長照服務所以我們現在怎麼樣能夠讓我們面對到這麼多的長輩進來之後他能夠健康老化所以這個不是完全依賴一對一的一個移工來照顧然後"},{"start":12594.591,"end":12613.926,"text":"反而導致他的退化那我想這個是非常嚴肅的議題那至於說相關的這個身體能機制應該怎麼樣來放寬或者是身體能機制怎麼樣來讓他簡化我們一定朝向這個方向在處理所以我們去年10月份其實跟勞動部這邊一起合作包括這些醫療診斷證明跟專業評估方式跟醫療機構已經成長到800多家"},{"start":12618.47,"end":12620.23,"text":"委員楊瓊英提出面資料列入公報"},{"start":12647.727,"end":12666.562,"text":"立法院職權行使法規定委員會應提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者公聽會報告作為審查特定議案之參考我們會把各位寶貴的意見及書面資料匯編成冊分送給本院的全體委員以及"},{"start":12667.863,"end":12670.024,"text":"與會政府機關代表、學者、專家參與"}]}},{"id":"16055","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16055","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528eae5f17226264b1aa6425655b8120616f4f242ceca9577839d84d40ad2497b2ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-03","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-03T08:30:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T13:29:00+08:00","duration":17940,"影片長度":"04:59:00","委員發言時間":"08:30:00 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815,"end":2379.848,"text":"已經修正146條之五放寬保險業派任公共建設董監之席次比例限制110年已修正提高到三分之二二、為鼓勵保險業參與國內五加二六大核心產業及公共建設之投資於112年12月條件保險業投資私募股權基金創業投資事業之RBC風險係數如百分之百投資國內公建者適用風險係數為10.18"},{"start":2382.469,"end":2405.516,"text":"同時投資國內公共建設五加二及六大核心產業者適用風險為17.25%。三、為引導鼓勵保險業投資國內公共建設政策方向已於113年6月宣布目前已投資之公共建設未來適用新一代清場能力的時候未來均不用逐步調整。"},{"start":2407.745,"end":2421.168,"text":"截至113年1月底指投資署保險法第146條之五專案運用公共建設及社會福利運用金額為1375億元,佔保險業資金0.42%,據法定限額10.27兆元,尚有相當大的空間"},{"start":2430.85,"end":2452.609,"text":"檢視目前保險業已投入公共建設的類型,包括再生能源發電及儲能之電力設施、促參BOT案、污水下水道、廢棄物處理、產業園區觀光休閒、政府辦公、都市更新案等。若能持續增加公共建設案源,將有助於擴大保險業參與投資公共建設。"},{"start":2455.593,"end":2484.106,"text":"為促進保險業擴大參與公共建設需跨部會合作、公司協力推動增加更多公共建設案源及投資誘因保險業投入國內公共建設的重點在於如何釋出更多保險業可參與之公共建設案源提供足夠之誘因本會檢視適合保險業投資公共建設案源條件包括一、需具有自償性具有長期穩定現金流量合理報酬案件投資風險可控"},{"start":2485.166,"end":2511.572,"text":"政策穩定性及可預設性等條件又保險業較少產業經營之專業背景、成熟型之產業標的相對於開發型更容易評估與投資保險業本業為經營保險業務參與公共建設方式投資較不適合直接參與公共建設營運除現行透過地上權按直接投資公共建設方法外公共建設證券化、政府建設公債"},{"start":2512.552,"end":2525.974,"text":"具有長期穩定收益、可匹配保險業長期負債,亦為適合保險業之投資標的。為促進保險業資金投入公共建設,需跨部會在以下三方面共同合作。一、"},{"start":2527.031,"end":2545.946,"text":"增加公共建設案源,釋出更多具合理期間及穩定報酬可由民間參與投資公共建設案源,有助於促進保險業投入國內公共建設。二、增加公共建設金融商品種類,參佐亞洲地區已有公共建設證券化是多項案例。"},{"start":2546.706,"end":2574.805,"text":"黨政府單位可將目前具有穩定現金流量的公共建設進行證券化：將可增加公共建設相關金融商品多元化：活化政府資金運用：更可創造民間業者、政府及民眾之三贏局面。三、建立跨部會單一窗口協助排除法規障礙保險業參與公共建設投資除涉及保險相關法規外依個別公共建設種類及性質亦涉及不同目的事業主管機關之規定"},{"start":2576.346,"end":2603.436,"text":"如能建立跨部會單一窗口透過跨部會協調、溝通將更有助於加速協助解決保險業等民間業者投資公共建設。為促進保險業投入公共建設本會將持續檢討、修正相關法令及研議相關鼓勵措施。一、我國新一代清查能力制度將研議進一步鼓勵保險業投資公共建設相關獎勵措施。"},{"start":2605.902,"end":2614.26,"text":"二、透過不動產投資信託引導投資公共建設、憲政研議修正、開放瑞士採基金架構發行"},{"start":2617.108,"end":2640.382,"text":"並採雙軌制與現行依據不動產政經化條例發行信託架構並行修法草案前頁於113年5月經貴委員會審核通過。未來基金架構瑞慈如商辦大樓、物流倉儲中心、公共建設等案源均可作為其投資標的。然後新法通過後將有利於我國公共建設之推動與發展。"},{"start":2642.932,"end":2669.859,"text":"推動公共建設為國家重要政策需要跨部會合作及公司協力推動保險業依現行法令已得透過多元管道投資國內公共建設又保險業資金來自於保護其資金運用應注意收益性、流動性及安全性參與公共建設投資亦需考量風險本會未來將持續配合國家重要政策適時檢討相關法規促進保險業投資公共建設"},{"start":2670.559,"end":2680.294,"text":"以上報告,敬請各位委員指教,並祝各位委員身體健康,萬事如意。謝謝。好,謝謝彭主委。接著請財政部莊部長進行專題報告。"},{"start":2691.479,"end":2706.721,"text":"主席、各位委員、先進、大家好今天貴委員會安排相關部會就如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設．加速建設的推動進行專題報告警究社財政部業務部分簡要說明進行指教"},{"start":2707.442,"end":2712.664,"text":"首先就保險業參與國內公共建設情形報告統計102年到112年民間參與公共建設案件總共有1262件投資金額有1兆4665億元其中保險業投資37件金額是3244億元佔民間參與案件的總投資金額是22%"},{"start":2731.669,"end":2750.204,"text":"保險業投資案件當中,依《促參法》辦理的是有9件,總共365億元,包含文教、觀光遊器、運動設施及交通建設等類別根據金管會的統計資料,截至今年第一季,保險業整體投資、專案運用及公共建設大約6092億元佔保險業"},{"start":2753.973,"end":2781.185,"text":"可投資運用的資金只有1.86%,顯見保險業可運用的資金投資臺灣公共建設仍有相當大的空間。第二個是為各位報告,促參2.0提高保險業投資公共建設的對策。第一個就是111年12月21日我們修正了促參法的部分條文。我們新增了影視、音、綠能、資源循環、再利用及數位建設等公共建設的類別。"},{"start":2782.826,"end":2806.408,"text":"並且在現有的五種民間參與模式之外新增了RTO及ROO兩種模式同時我們也引進國際間常見的政府購買公共服務的機制不但提高了政府預算執行效益也使民間機構有穩定的收益提供保險業更多的投資標的第二個對策就是通盤檢討各類公共建設的重大公共建設範圍"},{"start":2807.859,"end":2826.625,"text":"擴大租稅優惠的對象以及吸引保險業投資。第三個,我們就是搬訂各種促參模式的招商文件跟投資契約的範本,供各主辦機關來參考運用。第四個,就是本部在112年7月也成立了促參案件的履約爭議調解會。"},{"start":2828.666,"end":2837.149,"text":"加速排除履約爭議。迄今已經接受有9件申請案並協助解決爭議。本部每年辦理全國招商大會及建制促參的招商地圖網"},{"start":2845.812,"end":2867.209,"text":"那113年的招商大會我們會籍的商機總共超過了1300億提供保險業等資金多元投資的機會那麼我們看近3年的出差案件簽約金額在持續成長那麼今年到6月簽約金額已經達到187億元和去年同期相比增加了超過6成熱觀預期未來出差的簽約將持續的成長最後"},{"start":2871.832,"end":2900.402,"text":"目前保險業可結合的專業技術廠商共同投資促參案件直接參與國內的公共建設的興建營運然後搭配本部積極推動促參2.0法治環境的優化並且建構全國性的公共建設商機媒合平台有效增加案源以及它的曝光度期望中央及地方政府可以善用促參的方式引進國內資金投入公共建設加速公共建設的推動"},{"start":2901.502,"end":2928.056,"text":"為國人帶來更優質的公共服務。以上報告,敬請各位委員指教。謝謝。好,謝謝莊部長。現在開始詢談哈。每位委員8加2,列席委員5加1。接著上午10點截止發言登記。本次會議委員若有相關修正動議,請送到主席台收件。現在第一位請,林德福林委員。"},{"start":2935.735,"end":2948.48,"text":"謝謝主席、我們議會各列席的單位首長、各官員是不是請中央銀行的嚴副總裁請嚴副總裁委員好副總裁你好我請教因為"},{"start":2960.162,"end":2960.522,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2977.722,"end":2977.982,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3008.897,"end":3018.913,"text":"中金院、台金院公佈之經濟數據景氣互輸力有未逮那你如何來看待未來的我們整個景氣呢?"},{"start":3020.243,"end":3049.2,"text":"報告委員我們今年我們在6月13號的時候我們預估是今年是3.77是比主計總署的3.9是低一點因為我們看到去年的下半年其實台灣經濟的成長的積氣還蠻高的所以今年下半年相對的他成長會減緩一點點所以說你還是看好對好謝謝那副總長你請回去我請彭主委我們金管會請彭主委"},{"start":3051.271,"end":3077.61,"text":"主委您早主委您早我想我們台股近期走勢震盪那主委你對我們的前景依然你認為是樂觀還是未來會有其他的看法呢?報告委員那個其實今晚會是我們市場的主政機關我們對未來不做預期不過我們會密切觀察最近整個台灣的股市確實是走勢震盪啊"},{"start":3079.051,"end":3103.309,"text":"因為市場的波動是難免的我想說我們是關注於整個制度面的健全與否那儘管會確實不太方便對未來的股市做預期那個彭主委預期美國將降息那如何來看待目前整個降息的進度對我們整個台灣影響未來會如何你可不可以"},{"start":3104.029,"end":3121.141,"text":"市場上普遍預期美國大概會9月會降息然後其實影響未來市場的那個那個層面主要因素除了美國的利率政策以外另外就是美國的那個年底的選舉大家預期這兩個可能是最大的變數對"},{"start":3122.822,"end":3149.92,"text":"所以我想說臺灣這一波的股市的發展其實跟我們的基本面是有關剛才央行鳳才也說過我們其實上我們現在的未來的經濟成長率當然還有就是說我們在我們的經濟警測警緝對策裡面也是連續兩次的黃紅燈還就是說我們的出口也持續暢望還是有基本面的支持所以說你對我們整個未來的警緝是看好的還是怎麼樣"},{"start":3151.109,"end":3174.281,"text":"我剛跟委員報告過金管會是會關注到整個市場的健全度我們也注意到市場的現在的反應是否是什麼原因我剛跟那個委員報告過就是我們對未來市場不做預期但是我們會審慎的注意這樣齁是主委阿根據保花中心的統計授權業投資應用與公共建設的項目從投資金額佔授權可應用資金來看"},{"start":3177.327,"end":3201.958,"text":"指佔可應用資金的百分之0.42是百分之0.42換句話說行業的資產規模持續擴大也無法有效來刺激增加這些投資公共建設的金額佔比那請問主委你認為有哪些誘因是有利於刺激並吸引保險業者來提升參與而且"},{"start":3203.298,"end":3226.184,"text":"這個公共建設的這些意願呢?是,報告委員其實受險業的資金長期投資海外有它的整個的時空環境的背景假設台美的那個利差相對是穩定匯率相對穩定的話過去這樣的投資策略其實對於受險業而言它會比較傾向於做海外的投資因為它必須解決它利差的問題所以說國內投資很少?"},{"start":3227.125,"end":3241.664,"text":"對,但是最近因為臺美利差擴大,避險成本增加,其實現在是一個好時機,因為對於受險業而言,現在投資國內,如果有岸緣的話,他們的動機會更強,因為投資海外的風險確實在加大中,所以說,"},{"start":3242.645,"end":3259.463,"text":"本國的投資應該是授權業可以去考慮是不是?所以說我們才想說其實我們應該趁這樣的機會怎麼樣擴大案源怎麼樣把保險業的錢留在台灣建設台灣也可以幫助保險業去花資金也可以幫助保險業降低經營風險"},{"start":3260.475,"end":3275.765,"text":"那你認為這些誘因是不是已經達到了成熟的目的甚至於超越國外投資相同條件的吸引力呢?比如說我們在做那個所謂的那個資本資本的那個那個係數的時候"},{"start":3276.946,"end":3301.492,"text":"我們確實是有做一些比較有利於這樣的一個誘因比如說我們對投資國內的公建的話我們把係數降到一個比較低的係數是希望能夠刺激我們的保險業多多考慮國內的公建當然最重要還是要有案源也是今天我們想說大家應該集社會之努力我們應該更多的案源能夠讓國內的國人不只是保險業能夠有可以投資國內"},{"start":3302.745,"end":3313.171,"text":"那你認為如果保險業者對這些投資公共建設應該是採取主動那才是是不是才能夠真正達到的目的"},{"start":3314.093,"end":3314.734,"text":"主委,媒體報導國安會上個月17號"},{"start":3334.235,"end":3355.743,"text":"召集金管會、經濟部、還有財政部、出產師等部會開會。會中金管會反映業者認為三大難題,包括沒有案源、投報率以及投資的方式。那請問主委,業者所認為的三大難題,你認為是不是全部無解?"},{"start":3356.784,"end":3377.285,"text":"其實我剛剛跟委員報告就是說這個確實有難度就是比如說我們保險業的資金它是有成本的它如果要投資的話必須有三個條件第一個要適合的案源這個案源它的報酬條件也要適合這是第二個第三個是它的方式是用什麼方式直接還是間接還是透過各種的工具我想這些都是我們要努力的"},{"start":3377.725,"end":3385.768,"text":"不過我覺得這件事情確實是現在是一個好的機會因為現在我剛才講整個大環境有利於保險業更加大對國內的投資所以你認為這個"},{"start":3390.134,"end":3418.854,"text":"到底有沒有解套的辦法?如果無解那至愛難行的癥結點到底是什麼?其實剛才講就是說其實保險業的資金主要是因為他有一定的成本所以他其實會要求要超過他的一個資金的成本比如說對保護的承諾所以我想說怎麼樣擴大這樣案源裡面能夠有一個穩定的報酬這件事情而且長期穩定跟他的負債做匹配的話我想這個我們"},{"start":3419.975,"end":3420.075,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3435.457,"end":3462.344,"text":"就誠如剛剛主委您所提提的這些是不是出現曙光又或者是要必須跨部會的去討論你認為呢?謝謝委員我確實覺得這是有出現曙光而且這次跨部會我覺得大家更有誠意像剛才提到國發會他也主動來做這個協調也主動的做這樣的一個釋出我覺得現在政府團隊的氛圍非常的好大家都願意解決國內的問題"},{"start":3463.484,"end":3486.253,"text":"主委,其實本席回想本席第一屆擔任立委在金管會還沒有成立之前當時為鼓勵保險業將多達上千億的資金導入國內的公共建設那財政部單獨列出保險業將資金投入公共建設的項目並給予適當的風險係數作為刺激的誘因"},{"start":3490.234,"end":3516.642,"text":"那經過了20多年每隔一段時間保險業資金投入公共建設的新聞就浮上檯面彷彿看到資金導入公共建設的曙光但事實的證明多半都只是指紋樓梯響不見人下來那我請問主委在您過去多年擔任保險業界這個學者的這些觀察為何20多年來保險業"},{"start":3518.062,"end":3536.315,"text":"至今投入公共建設推動不如預期,你有什麼看法?我想報告委員,其實台灣在過去受險業遇到一個結構性的改變從2002年開始2002年開始台灣的利率大幅的快速下降一直到持續到最近才有比較多的改變這個過去這20年來"},{"start":3539.257,"end":3539.537,"text":"主委啊"},{"start":3561.903,"end":3583.036,"text":"目前有立委提出修正保險法條文打算把保險業海外投資上限由現行可應用的資金45%降到25%那我請問主委你認為修法條件海外投資上限是不是就能夠增加保險業對國內投資的籌碼來刺激保險業主要主動將資金投入國內公共建設你認為這樣可行嗎"},{"start":3590.601,"end":3614.808,"text":"這報告委員這有兩個層面第一個我剛剛報告過其實如果要投資公建剛剛我們整個的額度我們現在還有大概有3兆左右的額度其實這樣是非常非常足夠的那至於說如果真的把那個我們的國外投資比率直接從45調成25的話因為保險業的長期海外的配置都是一個長期投資如果做這樣劇烈的改變其實會產生非常非常大的這個影響"},{"start":3616.528,"end":3620.097,"text":"其實這個東西要審慎要審慎對會不會發生其他不可預期風險的可能呢?"},{"start":3624.268,"end":3647.101,"text":"這可能會對整個國內資本市場、不動產市場還有匯率都會產生重大影響最後一個議題我請教本席相信你非常的清楚保險業的資金大多來自保護需要穩定的收益率但是現實上投入公共建設新建期多為資金支出並沒有說現金流入加上缺乏"},{"start":3648.081,"end":3666.477,"text":"租稅優惠等誘因,就會影響投資公共建設的意願。主委,你說金管會希望先找到實驗型的個案,左翼小步,確定可行,讓外界看到引導受險資金留在台灣的可能性後,再來進行跨部會。"},{"start":3667.698,"end":3694.624,"text":"這個利害關係等的說服工作請問主委推動保險業投入公共建設已經這20多年來就是就你的了解面對三大難題是不是還停留在實驗型的階段現在我覺得已經開始有很大的改變了我覺得至少我們那個施政團隊對這個態度我覺得已經有很大很大的改變我覺得這是很好的契機我們過去不一樣是沒有"},{"start":3696.184,"end":3716.469,"text":"尤其我們現在應該更積極我覺得這是一個很好的契機這樣齁對是如果真的早有進展那是不是代表現實上推動不力的阻力是來自政府反之啊一直以來進展不大關靠實驗型的個案就期盼可以複製貼上你認為真的有可行性嗎"},{"start":3717.569,"end":3744.718,"text":"剛剛報告委員我覺得不盡然都是剛剛政府我覺得是整個環境的因素還有業者他自己經營的考量我也說現在的時機其實是很適合來持續推動那在你的任內推動亞洲資產管理中心是不是就是實現保險業資金投入公共建設的一個關鍵呢報告委員這也是我們在推動亞洲資產管理中心一項重要的工作之一這樣喔好謝謝時間到"},{"start":3754.017,"end":3780.018,"text":"這位質詢請吳秉瑞吳委員主席麻煩請金管會彭主委彭主委委員早主委早延續剛剛的話題現在有人提出修法要把海外的配置從45%降到25%"},{"start":3781.82,"end":3794.33,"text":"那第一個條文裡面沒有看到實施多久之內要降下來那假設退院不講究法律通過要降下來將回來台灣的資產大概會多少"},{"start":3794.895,"end":3819.4,"text":"報告委員現在我們受險業的總體資產大概32兆元左右剛剛提到就是說我們現在如果說以這樣那個額度下來的話我們估計大概是9兆多的金額會必須減少那等於說也代表說那個如果這樣的調降的話受險業必須立刻做將近9兆元左右的資產配置的改變稍待一下請嚴副總裁請嚴副總裁"},{"start":3828.942,"end":3849.362,"text":"副董,你剛剛彭主委的說明你有聽到,如果法律降成政治25%,要有9兆多的台幣要回來台灣,從外國的資產變賣9兆多的台幣回來台灣,台灣的通貨,第一個國內多9兆的通貨,中央銀行如何處理?"},{"start":3851.912,"end":3873.553,"text":"報告委員基本上因為我從另外一個角度去思考這個問題好了台灣是一個經常在順差的國家基本上經常在順差的國家應該是讓我們的資金投資到國外所以不管是保險業或者是我們政府基金或者是其實大量的資金是投資在國外這是在平衡我們國內經濟的一個"},{"start":3875.114,"end":3896.826,"text":"對啦,這個我了解我只是問你說如果突然之間要9兆的台幣回來台灣新台幣會升值很多吧因為外國的貨幣要購買新台幣才能回來台灣啊那突然之間要買9兆的新台幣那要賣多少的外幣那購買新台幣,新台幣就變得非常搶手我估計至少會漲到24、25、26塊吧"},{"start":3899.167,"end":3914.615,"text":"而且國內的債券市場規模也沒有那麼大的容納量所以這也都是很多延伸出來的第二個會不會因為這樣的突然之間的高額升新台幣突然之間走這麼強美國會不會認為我們台灣在操縱貨幣操縱匯率"},{"start":3918.55,"end":3947.272,"text":"是否有這樣的可能性?呃,我想那是假設性的,對啊。好,那你請回座,因為我是說萬一退一萬步法律通過的話啦,我再繼續請教彭主任。請回,請彭主委。是,謝謝。彭主委,這個回來不是那麼簡單欸,國內回來之後要幹嘛?突然之間九兆元回來,他也不能說放在家裡啊,不能說鎖在金庫啊,放在銀行啊,除了資金氾濫之後,要有投資標的啊。是。"},{"start":3949.243,"end":3966.056,"text":"投入股市嗎?投入房市嗎?這樣股市房市不是就被短期間用9兆的資金大水漫灌那不得了啊那可能不是兩萬三千點啦可能三萬三千點、四萬三千點如果硬要把它丟進來的話"},{"start":3968.471,"end":3996.223,"text":"會不會有這樣的可能性?就是說以現在保險業投資在海外的資產,他們都是長期的投資在固定收益,特別是長期的債券上面。他們很多是要獲取長期穩定的報酬。那如果說真的回來,剛才陳儒剛才央行副總裁所提到的,台灣確實應該是整體的債市的規模可能也差不多這個金額而已,那現在也很難容納。那進來以後可以"},{"start":3997.059,"end":3997.779,"text":"的確有這樣的潛在的危險性"},{"start":4018.527,"end":4043.003,"text":"再來只是說程度可能沒有像我形容的這麼極端再來我就請教一個問題我們很多保險會與美國的債券為例美國的國債是一個世界上很大的市場那很多的投資標的都會投資美債那美國的尤其是美國國家發行的公債因為最近這個所謂的暴力升息是以他舊的那些債長期長債"},{"start":4045.484,"end":4045.724,"text":"本院委員會主席"},{"start":4064.895,"end":4065.315,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4085.351,"end":4106.257,"text":"其實這個數字我們用差不多初估大概因為我們在投資在海外這個比例投資在固收上面應該超過七八成以上那以剛剛那個額度乘一下那其實我們過去在過去20年來利率的水準那實際上我們也面對到剛剛講說現在馬上就可能要逐步降息"},{"start":4106.957,"end":4133.712,"text":"那這些保險業購買這些長期債券都是為了持有到期或取報酬。其實這個評價,確實會成如委員講的,如果現在很快地做Five sale,就是我們這樣去把它拋售,確實會影響層面非常的大。那個金額其實,雖然我們現在沒有細緻的數字,但是應該是非常大的一個數字。好,那你知道嗎,台灣的這些保險公司,有的是在金控底下,有的是保險公司,他們都是股票上市公司耶。"},{"start":4134.95,"end":4145.907,"text":"投資人有沒有估算過多少投資人?上百萬以上的投資人吧?持有股票的所有捐贈啦!我要請你要小心一個事情喔!你這個如果隨便做喔!"},{"start":4146.886,"end":4150.188,"text":"金管會對這樣的一個調整我們是持保留的態度是我們覺得還是不要做這樣的調動會比較符合現行的我們經營的狀況"},{"start":4175.16,"end":4183.429,"text":"那瞭解你的立場,請你回座,請財政部莊部長跟我們促參司理事長請莊部長、理事長委員好部長早,市長早,部長"},{"start":4194.15,"end":4214.404,"text":"剛剛談了很多,裡面就提到說其實還有很多的資金可以投入在台灣的公共建設那當然,促參是其中的一個方法,不是全部的方法是一個重要的方法那你有沒有歸納一下為什麼鼓勵了這麼多年還是金額比例還是佔這麼小的比例勒?"},{"start":4215.525,"end":4236.332,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是案源也就是說我們必須要有更多的一個公共建設的讓保險業資金可以投入的一個案源那第二個就是說過往保險業也就是說我們相關的法規對保險業資金的一些相關投資有些限制但是金管會已經修正相關法令的規定"},{"start":4237.192,"end":4264.22,"text":"對於保險業突入公共建設比如說在董建市的一個派的席次上也有所放寬所以這個部分在...這個剛剛報告裡面都有了不用重複了對那案源的部分那是要我們繼續就是說跨部會一起來做努力那就財政部來說我們是鼓勵以及協助各目的事業主管機關對於他所要做的公建盡量是以促參的模式來做那我們財政部就是要去優化有關的法制的環境以及對於履約爭議"},{"start":4265.32,"end":4291.14,"text":"可以能夠加速的協調處理這樣讓投資者有更有信心我跟你交換意見啦我從處理這個政策跟民眾陳情內我跟你報告理事長是一個很傑出的人才他對這個法令的解釋東西觀念是很清楚他現在問題是在哪裡我覺得啦我跟你討教是看看你認不認同最主要是我們台灣整個公務體系還有整個社會很怕人家賺錢"},{"start":4293.194,"end":4307.243,"text":"所以其實今天講保險業必須要投入這些東西他就必須要有一定的獲利空間簡單講人家做生意人家的資金是有本錢的嘛有成本的嘛那你如果叫人家做這些東西不讓人家有賺錢的空間"},{"start":4308.524,"end":4332.863,"text":"那人家為什麼要來做呢?我有別的地方可以賺啊!這K沒錢把K中 我不一定要中這K我不是說我唯一選擇但是問題是 台灣從上到下 從公務員到整個社會喔!只要商人賺錢 這個就是圖利商人啦!你們這個就是圖利的政府啦!所以你們這個政府就是 要來捉弊啦!所以我們要成立調查委員會 把你們這些人都捉來問啦!你不來的話 我要給你罰錢啦!"},{"start":4336.73,"end":4345.652,"text":"是不是台灣就是這樣的觀念,所以大家說政府委員不要去摸、不要去摸、不要去摸我跟書信來用,我怎麼談,沒有你的關係,我叫誰就好了嘛如果跟政府之間有什麼樣子,公共建設的往來、出身的往來賺肉錢,那該死了啦檢察官要來查啦,立法會要來查啦,大家都要來揭秘、都要來打閉案啦還沒有,到底是不是閉案還沒講,就先扣帽子嘛就先成立調查委員會嘛"},{"start":4367.418,"end":4387.353,"text":"我覺得這是一個很對於促參非常錯誤的觀念這樣哪裡叫促參這個就是要防避防止人家投資怎麼有促參的觀念你說是不是沒錯委員講的確實是但這個部分觀念應該要去做改變第一個就是說應該要合理的一個利潤然後政府來"},{"start":4388.013,"end":4407.898,"text":"然後民間來投資才有誘因這是要合理的理論第二個就是說打破所謂的政府是零出資的這樣一個觀念所以我們修法以後有所謂政府購買公共服務這樣的一個新的機制好那理事長你回答一下因為你在促三思這麼久你觀念很正確你是不是說明一下我剛剛講的你是不是也有少有同感啊"},{"start":4409.355,"end":4432.89,"text":"報告委員謝謝您的這個剛剛的引導其實的確這是一方面的問題但是以出安市的立場我想我們從兩個部分一個是鼓勵一個是協助那在鼓勵的部分我們現在是鼓勵各機關除了原有的交通建設或者是觀光遊企、商業設施這些可以做促參之外那我們也希望說各部會的"},{"start":4434.351,"end":4462.288,"text":"主管單位能夠包括像我們現在最需要的長照、醫療甚至像社會住宅這方面其實它後面的需求量都很大那也符合我們現在社會發展的趨勢那是不是這些部會可以來往這個方向來思考好 加油啦因為我們多了一些投資的管道讓社會往正確的觀念方向走這些都是未來國家要繼續健全繼續壯大的重要原因大家一起努力 謝謝"},{"start":4466.209,"end":4472.694,"text":"好 謝謝接著請賴世保、賴委員質詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請金管委的彭主委彭主委"},{"start":4492.996,"end":4508.018,"text":"主委您早有關於今天的主題我們周圍提案利益其實是非常良好的就是台灣現在希望更多來投資台灣"},{"start":4509.019,"end":4535.779,"text":"特別是你可以看到從那個NVIDIA、紅人星之後都來投資台灣、一直投資台灣台灣投資越多台灣就生力就越蓬勃發展這個人民就越有機會畢竟現在來講的話我們看到足跡總書也公布了我們的貧富差距非常嚴重勞工階級、壽星階級三分之二領不到平均薪資"},{"start":4537.55,"end":4562.817,"text":"這將將很難過欸領不到3萬的領不到3萬的有150萬人欸這都財政部公布的數字啊所以這個這個早晚的利益很好啦就是但是你現在一直強調說如果按照這樣子9兆要回來是嗎是的如果按照現在數字來統計的話9兆9兆是什麼概念9兆是什麼概念"},{"start":4566.857,"end":4580.585,"text":"我請問你,知不知道我們的GDP一年幾兆?GDP...呃...我要算一下,對不對?要...要讓總裁來講一下我們GDP一年多少?副...副總裁啊副總裁那個八兆多的新台幣一年八兆GDP啊?不是十幾兆嗎?一二十兆嗎?不是啊?蛤?"},{"start":4597.048,"end":4605.432,"text":"我記得是幾兆18兆18兆啦18兆啦等於有半個我們的GDP要回來現在來講那個主任你剛剛說現在在現有的45%底下"},{"start":4622.577,"end":4641.455,"text":"就有,還有三兆沒有用完是不是?呃,現在以我們現在保險法的規定,就是它以資金的10%,現在只用到,如果說最寬的估計大概就1%,那如果單單公、公建這一塊只有0.42%這,這,這主要是台灣沒有投資標的嘛!"},{"start":4642.887,"end":4655.978,"text":"這是沒有投資標的公建的投資報告也不行然後推出的也少很容易被有心人士特定人士圍標啦幹什麼的而且你會不會擔心股市過熱啊這錢一回來股市不是又暴漲了會不會"},{"start":4661.509,"end":4681.187,"text":"當然如果從供需籌碼來看,確實有這樣的想像請問你,拜託我也問你一下,現在股市有沒有過熱?現在我剛剛也跟委員報告過,其實我們關注的議題是看起來現在台灣是有基本面的支撐,還有一些我們看看整個的交易量或什麼,我們在都密切關注,我覺得我們的平均EPS多少?"},{"start":4681.847,"end":4704.336,"text":"我們平均股市的報酬率現在大概是2.66左右多少我們的應該是2.66我的數字EPS什麼2.66不是EPS就是股市的那個本益比本益比是22左右美國多少美國的部分這個我們這個可能要來局長來來當一下搶手張局長"},{"start":4708.41,"end":4719.475,"text":"美國多少?香港勒?就是你二十幾的那個EPS到底台灣是偏高還是偏低?一般來講是偏...不會偏高喔多少?剛剛那個數字是殖利率殖利率是2點多啦2.5殖利率是2.5"},{"start":4738.342,"end":4764.494,"text":"我知道殖利率啦我問你問題那個不是殖利率啦我問他那個本利比啦幾倍啦幾倍美國幾倍美國24.84香港勒香港11.24比起香港我是偏高的大概美國跟香港差一半"},{"start":4766.963,"end":4771.149,"text":"房地產會不會也鼓勵到時候房地產一倍衝破一層?會不會?"},{"start":4774.244,"end":4775.804,"text":"邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。"},{"start":4803.942,"end":4813.245,"text":"現在的話就是說他有個額度可以自己投但是我們現在超過40他要一個一個來所以你是反對修法我們當然覺得說現況如果做這樣的修法對市場衝擊過大我們剛剛也報告過我們持保留也希望能夠維持現在的條文"},{"start":4830.892,"end":4836.337,"text":"8月15日,環境部說要進行碳礁域運作。政交所有一個碳礁域"},{"start":4847.645,"end":4848.085,"text":"國內對國外交易什麼時候?"},{"start":4867.944,"end":4886.27,"text":"我記得碳交易所在去年7月成立以後,去年年底就曾經做過那個交易,對,就是國內的金控公司、金融機構也開始進行這個購買,對,不過這個碳交易的…購買是購買國外的喔,購買國外的,沒有購買國內的喔,沒有購買國內的,國內對國內沒有喔,沒有開放喔"},{"start":4890.148,"end":4910.449,"text":"我們可能預計下半年,這部分因為前陣子也有跟那個環境部,因為這跟環境部的整個政策推動有關。今年底可以期待嗎?今天?今年底。今年我們是,剛剛局長,對不對?局長剛剛跟我講是下半年。這什麼時候嘛,你剛剛說下半年。9月、12月、10月、11月。"},{"start":4914.456,"end":4927.841,"text":"對,這個齁,這個其實這個雖然說那個碳交易所是由這個譬如證交所下面,但是實際上這牽涉到我們沒有我們是預期就是明年,但詳細的時間我們這邊沒辦法,在這邊還要跟環境部做協調"},{"start":4936.083,"end":4936.464,"text":"兩位長官好"},{"start":4967.85,"end":4987.855,"text":"這個現在有一個題目就是我們看到現在大概最熱的題目之一啦叫猜量行動好啦他們有一個什麼什麼猜量行動啦血灰還有血灰的名義喔他已經達標的目到了700多萬"},{"start":4990.563,"end":5000.083,"text":"七百多我請問部長按照規定按照你們輔助署所得稅法第11條的規定"},{"start":5003.036,"end":5019.264,"text":"這些的協會或者基金會他如果是人家捐款給你就捐款for捐款only沒有問題這個就看他一年月額這個有沒有花掉70%沒有70%要課稅但是他有賣比如說這基金會有賣書或者協會有賣什麼東西我現在就有了他們就賣T恤"},{"start":5029.389,"end":5039.607,"text":"有賣T恤?請問你,他有沒有跟你交營業稅?有沒有跟你交營業稅?有沒有?會不會我是不是可以請署長來?好,署長可以。"},{"start":5041.734,"end":5062.081,"text":"謝謝委員的吹詢那這個我們應該分兩塊就第一個到底這個集資平台現在看起來是一個集資的方式那接下來是誰提出這樣的集資平台他集資的資金要用在什麼地方那如果他現在是一個機關團體就像剛剛委員他有一個協會"},{"start":5065.762,"end":5089.349,"text":"您要查一下它是不是屬於符合我們所謂教育文化公益慈善機關所以它有一定的條件如果是符合的話那根據我們四條意向十三所謂需要四條意向十三款的規定它符合行政所得稅有第十一條規定很清楚喔它是教育文化公益慈善機關或團體有銷售貨物或老物要報生營業稅"},{"start":5091.71,"end":5111.041,"text":"要報營利稅啊!甚至要報所得稅啊!是!對吧?我講對吧?委員剛剛您提到的是我們所得稅法第4條第一項第13款規定它是針對所得稅的部分它是說如果你是符合我們教育文化公益資產機關團體符合行政院標準那它就要申報"},{"start":5111.681,"end":5116.963,"text":"這個單位有沒有跟你報營業稅我就問你這個單位有沒有我要去去確認才會知道他要報喔他要報喔他已經截止了"},{"start":5134.668,"end":5150.668,"text":"四月十五日他五月就截止了四月十五日的代表今年六月要向你報營業稅我們營業稅是每兩個月報繳是七月這單數月所以要七月十五號看他有沒有七月十五號要報對"},{"start":5151.949,"end":5167.843,"text":"您要提醒他要報喔,這個我覺得是問題很大。好,那個陳政秘長,我問你喔,你那個新青恩專案你不是開始修理了嗎?這個有開始剎車了喔,你也做一個報告。"},{"start":5169.246,"end":5189.833,"text":"你已經做一個報告 刑情案專案其實你已經報告都有了 可是你沒公佈你那個平均一千件 有幾件有類似人頭或者是這個你不要說詐騙啦齁 類似人頭的不正當說法做法 有幾件 一千件裡面"},{"start":5191.315,"end":5199.673,"text":"呃這個部分吼我們呃針對先對高風險的案子篩出來然後有行庫他會去逐案的去了解逐案去了解對"},{"start":5202.843,"end":5217.275,"text":"結果要出來啊,結果現在沒有啊可是我知道是訊息,你們已經有了,你們答案有了沒有嗎?還沒有答案嗎?不是啊,都在持續的追查當中啊,對現在違規的情況我們還沒有,那個行庫還沒有回報回來"},{"start":5229.554,"end":5253.864,"text":"我們會在稍後再會跟他們查一個時間一段時間我們會跟他們再請他們回報是好最後一點最後一點我問你啊這個這個不要急嘛我這時間很短這個健保健保署這衛福部長啊要預祝癌症新基金新藥基金100億他現在動到9這個念頭來了他要課9捐這你知不知道"},{"start":5259.875,"end":5260.736,"text":"郭國文、郭昭瑋"},{"start":5297.569,"end":5308.037,"text":"主席有請彭主委跟嚴副總裁請彭主委還有副總裁嚴副總裁嗎?慢慢來沒關係,請嚴副總裁"},{"start":5325.836,"end":5341.249,"text":"主委我先說因為大家討論蠻多的如果假設今天的這個條文通過的話預計大概有9.53兆資金會回到台灣那台灣的資金會去哪裡大家非常清楚不是去房市就去股市"},{"start":5341.929,"end":5361.38,"text":"那依照目前資金過剩的情況底下我對這個條文老實講羅財委我真的沒有辦法贊成因為我其實對這個資金氾濫的問題其實憂心忡忡就如同我藉著這個議題也請教一下兩位就我發現呢央行對於整個這個不動產土建融的這個指標是不同的"},{"start":5361.9,"end":5384.928,"text":"你看看央行不動產的販款佔全部的販款比重的金額是13.75但是對照於金管會它扣除掉土銀之後只有國銀的部分的這個不動產呢這根據72條之二的部分呢央行的金額居然低過金管會你們有沒有覺得在這兩個金額當中有什麼樣的落差我記得央行的報告有提過特別是山高的部分就有提到這兩項"},{"start":5386.96,"end":5413.751,"text":"主要是那個金融債券的那個就是這邊的72條之二把那一塊放進去把他拿掉了金融債券的部分那金額大概多少呢金融債券應該是有但是直接在不動產那邊我沒有資料但金融債券大概是一兆多左右因為主要還是在於這個所謂的金額的部分嘛我們還是要釐清那個數字嘛麻煩總裁你會後再給我一下因為中秀是要有一個統一的指標我們來看待"},{"start":5414.171,"end":5414.651,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5434.245,"end":5435.345,"text":"主管機關在必要時還可以規定銀行在但書販款還有一個最高額度。"},{"start":5454.052,"end":5454.492,"text":"中央銀行局局長"},{"start":5470.282,"end":5489.51,"text":"報言如果就是排除掉的部分我們把它加回來的話其實還是沒有超過30那總數多少大概差不多2929左右29左右29左右就接近了對接近了不過這個部分我們有要求銀行要嚴格的控管"},{"start":5489.79,"end":5497.875,"text":"要員口的控管所以說已經接近30%看起來26、27但是其實接近29就詳細的數字再給我一下但是你72條之二的部分這五款當中你還有一個解壓縮條款什麼是解壓縮條款呢也就是說你在2018年的時候金管會又出一個函這個函號熱熱等我都不說了"},{"start":5514.404,"end":5542.098,"text":"這個擴大解釋的部分當中呢這包括醫院、學校、政府我這還可以理解到後面那個主委我跟您提醒一下連廠房的這一個條款這個貸款的金額也排除還有都更的部分的條款也排除甚至能營建工程的營運周轉金也排除我覺得你這個後門會不會開得太大啊"},{"start":5544.158,"end":5570.335,"text":"主委,我們其實前陣子我們有在檢討裡面的它的範圍跟定義這部分我們會請那個銀行局在那邊再來檢視對,你把天條開一個大後門,那後門越開越大怪不得你這個普建融的資本會不斷地集中嘛結果後來發現,原來死忠焉的庸者是來自於天條的一個後門條款嘛對啊"},{"start":5574.448,"end":5596.588,"text":"主委你這個真的要好好地把關一下啦這點我們會注意喔剛剛那個局長有提到有關都更部分那局長要不要簡單補充一下報告委員因為107年的這個裡面有一些部分像都更圍繞的這個部分的話它本來就在都更或圍繞的那個法律規定裡面就已經排除了我們只是把它納到這個107年的這個函"},{"start":5598.666,"end":5628.126,"text":"那當初你們就應該也要這個警覺線嘛你如果任何相關土建農的規定任何單一法規的部分都予以排除的話那個土建農的金額就不斷的上升啊不是嗎那你這個天條的意義又在哪裡30%的上限又在哪裡這天花板會自動的調升欸浮動式的欸不是嗎主委是所有洋行的報告當中最關鍵的因素之所以今天啊房地產會居高不下就是資本過度集中嘛"},{"start":5629.167,"end":5629.467,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5648.144,"end":5676.246,"text":"一個月我們可以把一個月以後把那個報告再跟委員說明你們要包括如何檢討、如何限縮把那後門關起來想盡辦法好不好是讓資本一直集中上去嘛所以接下來我想問一下主委的部分主委你也知道本席很關心台中商營嘛台中商營本席去跟你了解一下你們總共前前後後就是精檢了五次"},{"start":5677.219,"end":5696.839,"text":"在第二次的時候就發現了這個交際會的申報有所缺失但你們有做行政的處分但是真正的去送到這一個地檢署是在案發四年之後這一點我想請主委你可能要再說明清楚一下"},{"start":5697.58,"end":5713.633,"text":"因為你現在把所有的焦點放在檢察局一個集合人員跟王國匯風的秘書有往來這個是檢察局內部的內機內控出問題可是這家公司的內機內控出問題那我們要怎麼處理?主委"},{"start":5715.174,"end":5715.295,"text":"主席"},{"start":5735.768,"end":5753.32,"text":"那SOP會跟他討論這個案情本期就是在討論給你SOP你的SOP應該是出了問題了你回去好好因這個案子好好調整一下啦不要過度寬鬆啦第二個吼你知道嗎在你們檢察局當中你們有去查過啊臺中商營啊為什麼蓋這個企業總部"},{"start":5756.333,"end":5766.874,"text":"資本額300億的一個銀行結果他花了100億來蓋這個大樓你不覺得不合比例嗎而且還挖了10層樓地下室還挖了10層樓"},{"start":5768.749,"end":5789.634,"text":"原因聽說啊,台中的沙石特別好啊。這一頭牽扯到土地出售方是誰,我跟你說,就我理解是新復發啊。中間牽扯到綜藝的這個交易人是誰,你要去查清楚。你這一件金檢局有沒有送到地檢署,你也應該要查清楚啊。"},{"start":5792.113,"end":5807.463,"text":"背後的利益結構你沒有把它披露出來到現在為止還疑雲重重啊不是把說焦點放在那個可憐的公務人員因為交情或錯交朋友然後現在好像事情就跑到他身上去了"},{"start":5808.24,"end":5834.386,"text":"主委是不過我想說本部本會人員這個涉案部分應該跟這個是我覺得是會從不同的角度考量對自己內部的控制有這個問題我們也深表遺憾我們也在內部也做過很多檢討然後也做過一些很多的改善措施為責成這個檢察局一定要務必要落實講白一點這個案子你要去重新看一下"},{"start":5835.146,"end":5855.666,"text":"有無缺失有無該處分沒有處分有無該移送沒有移送你要重新去思考這件事情啊來建立一個範例啊在你上任之後啦好不好金融機關的內積內空出了這麼大的問題對不對好牽扯到內積內空的問題你又看到啦又牽扯到讀懂的角色啦一個立法委員會兼任讀懂"},{"start":5859.665,"end":5880.463,"text":"當他當了獨董的時候你這個公司自己出問題的時候這立法院出來跟你講話的時候這個是獨董還是門審我說假設有這種情況這第一個狀況第二個呢你去看喔過往啊在熱身案幾年前就有類似這種獨董搬掏空400億三個獨董都沒有事情那你難道都是簽到而已嗎對啊等下課嗎"},{"start":5888.4,"end":5902.385,"text":"過了這麼多年我們對獨董現在的狀況就是有權無責有獨董隨便薪資就一年上千億大股東提名拿了一千億他還有獨立性嗎少則平均行情大概一百萬"},{"start":5905.047,"end":5917.145,"text":"難道獨董可以這樣有權無責嗎?我不點名我前同事除了那個前同事李姓立委之外他的獨董還有誰?一個是國民黨的大佬徐立德的侄子"},{"start":5919.625,"end":5943.98,"text":"叫徐立業專門找這種人這種人專業能力在哪裡是關係取向還是專業取向你們要不要搞清楚要不要科與讀懂應該有的責任這是第一個你要去思考的問題第二個不適應的讀懂有沒有黑名單就像我們政府採購法當中有一些審查委員的名冊當中不好的就把它剔除掉有沒有可能"},{"start":5945.919,"end":5974.787,"text":"主委我們獨立董事是定在我們的政交法裡面的規定那我們會來就是這當然制度我們都會按照那個與時俱進來檢討啦那我會請我們政協局來檢討這個問題我跟你講喔獨董他基本上是監察人角色的轉換喔他權力是不是一般的董事喔薪酬委員會、審計委員會他幾乎都是當然的這個成員是現在是"},{"start":5975.376,"end":5990.231,"text":"就是監察人的部分沒有好好監察以致於內機內控出問題他是在筷子一支前面的內部的把關者就是陪著整個負責人去吃喝玩樂、坐飛機、出國旅遊這還像讀懂嗎虧損了、掏空了11億他沒有事情"},{"start":6000.315,"end":6004.581,"text":"難道不能從類似像美國的部分對會計事務所一樣的究責嗎?現在我們要討論會計事務所要跟他究責,這個獨董難道不應該究責嗎?"},{"start":6012.264,"end":6029.899,"text":"就是獨立董事也是公司法董事的一部分那這個部分因為特別是獨立董事是郵金管會主政但是他一般董事該負的責任他還是一樣要按照公司法跟一般的來負責他跟一般的董事的權利又更不一樣"},{"start":6030.7,"end":6033.441,"text":"主委,我希望看到你的魄力跟改革。謝謝。"},{"start":6058.772,"end":6073.193,"text":"這位質詢請李坤澄、李委員來,謝謝主席我們請這個彭主委彭主委"},{"start":6076.866,"end":6100.086,"text":"李委好彭主委好這個延續剛剛這個我們郭昭偉的話題這個臺中上銀的前董事長王貴峰他被這個具體求刑15年病科罰金新台幣5億元但是這個檢察官在查的時候有查出一個案外案嘛那這案外案是有一位金管會的檢察局的一位理性的集合員他是內鬼"},{"start":6101.087,"end":6125.594,"text":"那按照這個檢察官的這個起訴的內容來看他是從112年4月到113年的1月這長達大概7、8個月的時間洩漏這一個就是我們金檢局我們這個金管會這一個要調查的內容給這個台中商營那請問一下現在你們這個內部的懲處的調查的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":6128.286,"end":6133.132,"text":"那可不可以請張局長跟他講最近要做的事情因為現在這個檢察官有起訴這個李姓的這個集合員嘛對不對是給他這個還起訴啦那這個內部的行政的懲處勒"},{"start":6143.556,"end":6156.404,"text":"我們在6月25號先把他調離檢查的職務讓他做比較內勤的工作就跟金融業者比較沒有直接關係這第一點那實際上才調離而已才調離限制而已真正的行政程序我們這禮拜會完成"},{"start":6159.467,"end":6160.107,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":6180.08,"end":6199.417,"text":"這位同學他在那個檢查過程那個偵查程序的時候他承認了他這些泄密的這些行為嘛對那我們就是以這個為主因為我們對他瞭解對他承認是他有做那我的問題是說除了他之外還有其他人嗎那個我們會在那個在跟他做行政懲處的時候會請他答辯會再跟他會再問他對"},{"start":6202.219,"end":6202.979,"text":"所以你們有正式的行政調查嗎?"},{"start":6224.461,"end":6242.454,"text":"這件行政調查是我們會在那個懲處的時候會再跟他請他說明,剩下部分是我在我個人就跟他談的時候我有問他他說他在檢察官裡面怎麼講那這算是正式調查嗎?還是就是說你局長就直接去問他?我是說這件事情非同小可啊,應該是要正式的一個行政調查"},{"start":6243.615,"end":6267.92,"text":"主要是說因為他整案他在檢調那邊已經調查完畢而且他也承認了所以我們用這個做基本事實來做相關的後續處理對那主委我的問題是說除了他之外還沒有其他人剛才局長沒有回答我這個問題這當然就是這個我沒有去查嗎那事情發生以後呢我有好幾次就跟檢察局講說一定要了解這整個的始末我們不容再犯"},{"start":6268.76,"end":6286.158,"text":"所以設檢察局立刻就調整他內部的保密的一些規定我也希望他定期的跟我回報再來相關的懲處應該趕快進行那最終懲處是什麼這其實我們公務員涉案其實有相關的法規的規定"},{"start":6287.079,"end":6307.853,"text":"比如說剛剛那個局長講的就是公務員保障法跟考機法裡面都有針對這個程序做一定就剛才講說那個時程還是要保障當事人的權益然後再來就是說他該怎麼樣的撤職或是這樣一個過程就是可能都要按照我們的那個法律規定來我當然知道但是我就是問就是說這個"},{"start":6310.413,"end":6338.434,"text":"除非你們已經調查過了那就是只有這個李姓的集合員他洩密那這件事情可能內部的控管就是到他但是我不確定說還有沒有那我這樣聽下來好像你們也沒有再去查就是只有針對檢察官查他的部分去查而已啦其實剛剛局長講的比較保守啦其實我們在局長跟內部跟政風人員都有對這件事情做仔細的了解因為畢竟剛才這已經是完成問偵查我覺得只是說除了局長自己去問之外政風有沒有介入啊"},{"start":6339.895,"end":6357.361,"text":"有啊,當然有。對。局長,你八月份要退休囉?是。是。跟這件事情沒有關係吧?完全沒有。沒有關係。個人的生涯規劃。對。是。好。那我再請教一下這一個這個主委齁,那請這個保險局的局長。呃,是局長。"},{"start":6363.305,"end":6376.498,"text":"在這個6月12號的時候大家也關心到就是說這個星光人壽還有這個山上人壽他們的這個資本市值率沒有達標嘛那時候你是提到說這個6月底之前呢"},{"start":6377.972,"end":6404.287,"text":"這個會聽他們的這個具體的這個改善的這個計畫那現在也7月出了嘛那7月1號新光人壽的這個董事長由這個新光金控的董事長由原來這個人壽的這個董事長魏寶生來出任嘛那他我看他在這個報紙上他也提出了一些具體改善的計畫那請問一下局長好了這一個兩家公司的這個計畫你看過了嗎那你滿意嗎"},{"start":6407.484,"end":6421.611,"text":"跟委員報告,大概新光人壽的這個改善計畫就如媒體所說的,因為董事長大概已經對外說明了,他們有提出來不是媒體所說的啦,應該他有沒有把這個計畫,不是媒體講的,這個時候他有沒有把這個計畫給你他有把財業改善計畫給我們,那大概也如他所說的,就是他有提出現金增資的"},{"start":6430.355,"end":6430.455,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6450.447,"end":6451.848,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢"},{"start":6469.565,"end":6470.886,"text":"那你有沒有給他一個delight?"},{"start":6499.846,"end":6517.248,"text":"這個部分可能我們會看看怎麼處理,再給他一個時間線。換句話說,他們的改善計畫,星光人獸算是有通過了,然後山上人獸沒有通過。目前還沒有通過。還沒有通過。對對對。那你給他們的Date Line,計畫還要再提上來,至少說計畫何時再提上來,有沒有一個Date Line?"},{"start":6518.589,"end":6533.638,"text":"這個部分可能我們會有一些行政處理時間之後會確定這個時間我們也是希望他今年年底以前應該有一個進展你以為不能說這個新光人壽他已經講說八月了然後山上人壽可以拖到年底"},{"start":6534.717,"end":6553.997,"text":"看他的那個真正採取的措施需要的合理期間有時候還要適當是給壓力啊不然就一直拖啊這個部分我們會處理所以還是要給點壓力啦時間上也是一個壓力啊請教一下主委今天提到就是說這個"},{"start":6556.516,"end":6559.6,"text":"要把這一個保險法第146條之四條降保險業的國外投資總額從45條降到25那金管會的立場勒?"},{"start":6567.664,"end":6589.782,"text":"各位委員報告我們剛剛有說過就是因為現在如果做這樣的更動對於保險業資產配置以及國內市場的衝擊可能會非常的大所以我們是持保留態度希望維持原來的條文不過老師講這個保險業者投資國內的這些公共建設的確比例是偏低這個2024年的第一季是1335億元然後佔整個這個保險業的資金才0.42%"},{"start":6595.186,"end":6595.206,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":6610.798,"end":6635.413,"text":"讓他能夠投資不是說你現在連可以在國內投資的這些這個保險業的這些金額還沒有在國內投資你就說我要降低從45%然後降低到25%然後又引進了大概9兆的資金回到台灣所以這個也是大家的一個疑問就是說國內有沒有這些投資的標的可以吸引我們的保險業者來做投資的"},{"start":6637.213,"end":6657.874,"text":"剛剛不管是財政部部長或央行副總裁都有提到了就是說我們現在的現況確實距離法定上限目標很遠我們在政治上也是希望說臺灣的保險業能夠更多的資金投入臺灣因為臺灣確實未來需要很多公共建設只是說這個你們還要再提出更具體的計畫因為我有看你們的報告"},{"start":6658.755,"end":6685.227,"text":"經管外財政部我看過那請教一下主委啦這一個中央銀行曾經有一個對這個美國財政部匯率政策的報告那其中提到說這個美國財政部呢這一個也密切關注這個台灣分銀行金融部門的風險包含這個匯率的風險就是說台灣的受險資金還有國外投資的這個匯率風險那如果啦這個一下從45降到25有9兆的這個資金回來的話"},{"start":6687.284,"end":6696.779,"text":"那會不會說因為你要變現嘛會不會要賣美國的公債然後呢會不會引發這個美國的高度關切這個有沒有想過啊"},{"start":6697.955,"end":6720.861,"text":"這個當然是央行會更專業來回答這個問題我剛才其實我們央行副總裁也有回答過這個問題那我覺得這個東西這麼大的金額在跨境的移動我想一定會引發很大的影響我想可能會引起很多很多的大家的關切跟考慮這一定會這還是建議一下金管會啦第一個用行政指導原則齁"},{"start":6722.081,"end":6749.497,"text":"這個逐步降低國外投資的比例然後檢討投資國內不動財的最低收益的標準那上次有提過就是說受選資金要求一定比例投入公共建設當時金管會是比較投持這個保留的態度但是呢這個我們雖然不支持說一下子調降比例這麼多但是我們都支持受選業者應該要多一些資金當然我們要提供多一些誘因希望他們來投資公共建設但是我看你們報告"},{"start":6750.598,"end":6778.413,"text":"還有在加油的部分,好不好?是,確實要加強,確實我們要更努力,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝主席,好,謝謝接著請賴會員、賴委員諮詢謝謝主席有請我們的金管會主委,還有我們的促參司司長林彭主委、促參司李司長"},{"start":6783.393,"end":6811.624,"text":"委員好是主委我想針對今天修法的這個議題那就是說單純降低受險業的一個資金從海外投資的一個比例那其實有沒有辦法解決問題有沒有配套的一個修法然後我們擔心讓回流的資金流入了股市及房市那剛才聽到主委回答得非常清楚這些如果是我們從"},{"start":6813.485,"end":6813.685,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6841.425,"end":6870.33,"text":"那其實在七年底可以應用的資金是32兆那我想請教這個主委就是說如果再加上不動產上的一個地上權還有有駕鎮建那還有就是目前還有就是2.4兆的一個額度可以提供那個公建的一個建設那從這一個數字裡頭你來看的時候你對於今天的一個修法那你"},{"start":6871.09,"end":6891.144,"text":"最直接有沒有什麼樣的一個問題?多出來的錢怎麼辦?是,跟委員報告,就是剛剛提到就是說這次的修法其實為了鼓勵投資公建那其實這是我們是支持的但是就以這個目的而言但是我們看到就是我們現在要投資公建額度還非常的大"},{"start":6891.684,"end":6891.965,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6908.487,"end":6933.858,"text":"主委錢不是越多越好嗎?投資的金額不是越多越好嗎?這要看有那個標的跟未納就剛才提到就是說當我們台灣有很好投資工具的時候保險業自然會來投資我想說如果台灣沒有這麼多的工具他自然就會因為他的資金是有成本他一定會去尋找出路這出路的話根據我們保險法146的規定他有很多的項目他可以投資其中可能就是大家比較關切的像比如說"},{"start":6934.778,"end":6936.28,"text":"邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。"},{"start":6949.815,"end":6974.825,"text":"所以這個非常清楚嘛那我們針對全國21家的受險公司海外的一個投資都超過25%那甚至就是說我們如果下修到這個25%的話全國的保險公司可能都會重新再做他的資產分配那我們之後就是說其實在這個21家的一個受險公司裡頭幾乎大家這個"},{"start":6975.965,"end":6976.145,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6995.282,"end":7018.166,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7018.266,"end":7046.562,"text":"一個比例一個比例申請的這事加代表說他們在整個封控或整個的資產配置做得好我們才會讓他提高到這麼高是那他們在做這個配置的時候單單這幾家的配置我在猜的金額非常的大這個我們可能沒有詳細說這回來對他衝擊有多大但不過我們可以想像剛剛就是整體來講這個是一個很龐大的一個數字非常龐大的數字就是相較於我們以台灣的市場的未納量這可能是真的沒辦法這麼快速的支撐容納不下"},{"start":7048.143,"end":7048.944,"text":"主委、董事長"},{"start":7078.063,"end":7096.476,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7097.529,"end":7124.724,"text":"是,謝謝委員的提示那有關跟金管會的合作其實金管會最近在修所謂的投信投顧法我們也有提供相當的意見給金管會這邊來參考那以這個財政部的立場呢我想我們主要是出攤法的一個主管機關所以大概我們會針對機關跟所謂的投資企業兩邊那來分別給予一些協助"},{"start":7125.744,"end":7148.591,"text":"尤其在機關的部分,我們大概分成用獎勵,譬如說發放簽約的獎勵金,讓獎勵金的用途可以更好用。鼓勵機關能夠來使用這些獎勵金,讓初餐的執行更順暢。除了獎勵還有什麼其他的一個方式,可以讓這些受選業者有穩定的一個收入呢?"},{"start":7149.093,"end":7168.392,"text":"那對於業者來講其實所謂的有償PVP的這些案件目前我們也正在做所謂的政策評估那未來包括像焚化爐、污水下水道甚至交通建設的這些都可以用這樣的一個模式綠能綠能也是同樣的可以納入"},{"start":7169.113,"end":7169.273,"text":"市長,您講得嚴謹"},{"start":7184.212,"end":7184.472,"text":"東華大學東華大學"},{"start":7211.118,"end":7234.993,"text":"就是他評估就是在整個強震的災損裡頭那損失了20億那各界的捐款其實不多啦那可是我們針對的就是說教育部他編了預算就是把這個20億的一個災損預計在三年到位可是在這裡我想那個請教請教那個就是我們的那個主委"},{"start":7237.719,"end":7257.05,"text":"這個東華大學的校舍地震引起的一個火災那保險公司為什麼不理賠?那買了保險是不是有利於就是說對我們災損的一個協助呢?這個齁我們會去了解一下他買的那個所謂的險種是什麼因為其實"},{"start":7258.646,"end":7280.203,"text":"各位在這邊也趁這個機會跟大家稍微做一個宣導很多人在做這個風險管理購買保險的時候他可能沒有仔細去看清楚他承保的範圍我想這件事情我們會了解以後再跟委員報告他保單的內容還有就是他現在理賠的狀況再跟委員做說明"},{"start":7281.363,"end":7303.428,"text":"主委,你是風管的一個專家,那如果我們針對這幾個大學,它都是在一個斷層帶上面,那這些學校我們簡單的去把它找出來、搜尋出來,就是說其實它很多校舍,然後它並沒有投保商業的地震險。"},{"start":7304.488,"end":7326.8,"text":"那甚至就是說民間的民間的一般的一個住宅其實大概只有四成投了這個地震險那大家都買了火險那只有成大他其實還有買了一個那個基本的地震險那你怎麼去看待就是說所有的學校還有公務系統裡頭我們的保險的一個能量是這麼弱"},{"start":7328.22,"end":7348.626,"text":"是,謝謝委員,這個委員蒐集資料真的很完整就是說這個確實我們在過去投保火災險的時候因為大家都沒有注意到其實地震因為我們過去是因為假設你有房貸的話你有房貸的話通常我們銀行實務就會要求你要買一個這個火險這時候就會一定搭有這個所謂地震險的基本的地震保險對這個"},{"start":7350.326,"end":7350.346,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":7369.946,"end":7393.36,"text":"主委,不是只有學校切法風險管理的一個概念連重大的公共建設其實也是一樣切法這個風險管理的一個概念你知道就是我們從新北那個黃川縣這個4.42億裡頭其實他沒有買保險他只有廠商的保固險那保固險還賠不到那你看"},{"start":7394.241,"end":7403.08,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7403.396,"end":7403.756,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7433.021,"end":7457.252,"text":"那你是風險管理專家所以這個我想由我們自身做起謝謝委員的提醒我們一定是趕快來去了解所以我舉的一個案例就是台積電的風險管理的一個做法它其實都是一個提高國家跟災害的一個應變能力它本來損失了兩三百億可是它扣除了保險理賠之後它相關的地震的損失才"},{"start":7458.112,"end":7482.473,"text":"只有30億這個都是我們一個非常好的一個參考的一個標的在這裡本席要求金管會就是評估就是如何跟各個機關合作提供業者更多的一個投資臺灣基礎建設的一個誘因那也希望你跟各機關的合作盤點現有的一個設備的風險管理狀況那協助建立中央風險控管的一個系統謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7490.512,"end":7508.949,"text":"下一位質詢請嚴寬恆、嚴委員主席、各位列席官員、各位委員大家早主席我想請金管會彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":7514.06,"end":7538.867,"text":"主委好,針對如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設：加速建設之推動保險業資金作為穩定可觀的資金來源應該能夠在公共建設當中發揮更大的作用目前保險業資金參與公共建設的程度非常有限僅佔可運用資金的0.42%"},{"start":7540.828,"end":7557.201,"text":"那目前我國保險業資金主要投資在债券、股票、不動產等傳統資產而參與公共建設的比例非常低那這主要是因為現行法規對於保險資金運用的限制還有公共建設項目的投資風險還有回報週期比較長這些原因"},{"start":7563.566,"end":7579.127,"text":"現行法規對於保險資金的運用有一定的限制比例不得超過資產總額的百分之三十在這一定程度上限制了保險資金投入公共建設的"},{"start":7580.128,"end":7580.408,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7606.218,"end":7625.679,"text":"報告委員您提到這個三個原因確實比如說像第二個原因跟第三個原因確實那第一個原因容我說明一下其實保險業它根據保險法146條之二裡面可以投資在不動產的額度剛剛委員也提到30%其實我們現在實際的投入應該是遠低於這個"},{"start":7626.34,"end":7653.102,"text":"所以我們這個不動產的投資比例應該不會限制到這個公建那只是我們對不動產的投資有很多比如說避免炒房我們是不可以投入住宅也對於投入商辦我們有一定的最低報酬率的限制這個東西可能是我們比較對於市場管控的一些比較多的措施但是這個比例的部分根據我們的現在的評估是不需要做這個修法因為我們不管是不動產投資現在比例"},{"start":7653.823,"end":7668.421,"text":"其實加上比如說BOT這些案例其實都還有很多的額度所以這個部分保險法146條的規定這個部分對於不動產投資的比例有所限制所以我才想要問說"},{"start":7669.807,"end":7694.197,"text":"主委,這院板,您要不要提出院板,針對保險資金投入公共建設的部分來做一個修正。提高它的比例。如果這樣的話,如果我們市場上已經有普遍存在非常適合的投資工具的話,我們可以考量朝這個方向來思考。但現在問題是,假設我們規定有一定的比例要投資公建,問題是我們現在的沒有那麼多的"},{"start":7695.017,"end":7696.898,"text":"邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會．加速建設之推動．加速建設之推動"},{"start":7722.516,"end":7740.876,"text":"對,就像你報告裡面也寫到就是說要推動公共建設作為這個國家的重要政策那配合國家重要政策適時的檢討相關法規促進保險業者投入公共建設所以你剛剛提到說投資工件、標的物這些部分都必須要去創造是的"},{"start":7743.258,"end":7760.775,"text":"所以第一個它的風險性以及它的我們剛剛有提到就是說政策變動或者是市場風險然後呢投資金額量體很大回收的週期很長所以這個才需要我們國家政策的一個介入然後來幫助它"},{"start":7761.736,"end":7778.449,"text":"這部分所以我想請主委來做一個更具體的一個設想好不好那再來就是說我再提出啦我也要解決等於說促進保險業者擴大參與公共建設那我提出幾點的建議"},{"start":7780.09,"end":7806.316,"text":"調整法規的限制就像你的報告裡面有提到適當的放寬這些公共建設的一個投資的限制提高保險資金在基礎設施和公共服務領域的一個投資比例制定一個針對性的政策鼓勵保險公司參與公共建設的項目第二點就是建立投資保障機制"},{"start":7809.737,"end":7837.047,"text":"經管會應該要建立健全的一個公共建設項目投資保障機制這部分來保障我們的保險公司第三項就是提供稅收優惠相關的這些基地措施那對於積極參與公共建設的保險公司提供稅收優惠那基地保險公司來參加對於這種公共建設一個投資那主委"},{"start":7838.127,"end":7864.685,"text":"促進保險業資金參與公共建設．能為我國公共建設提供穩定的資金來源．而且還能夠提升保險公司的一個資產配置效率．實現雙贏．然後促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設的部分那我們召委羅明才召委提案保險業目前依法海外投資最高可達可運用資金的45%"},{"start":7866.306,"end":7891.563,"text":"那這是經過了我看這個報告裡面他經過了從這個81年然後89年96年三次的修法把原來的一個比例從20%一直提高到45%對,從5%一直提高到45那昭緯他是希望說能夠把這個資金能夠"},{"start":7897.042,"end":7897.322,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7925.785,"end":7925.885,"text":"主席"},{"start":7948.677,"end":7948.917,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7969.237,"end":7990.977,"text":"不管是鼓勵或是提醒保險公司多多來投資這樣創造雙贏這才是我們真正未來可以來努力的一個方向對,所以說我們幫助國內把這些把國人的錢留在台灣那海外投資最高可達運用資金的45%所以就是說主委按照你剛剛的說法這45%會下修"},{"start":7993.357,"end":8017.909,"text":"這45%現在因為其實保險業資金的45%是動他每年會隨著他業績增加而增加所以比如說我們假設保險公司每年大概多一兩兆的新錢進來實際上這部分我們就可以多多鼓勵他投資台灣對但是他已經配置在海外的這些的這些那個投資如果貿然的去做這些處理的話其實會產生很大的那個負向的作用所以我們要必須要謹慎"},{"start":8018.689,"end":8039.747,"text":"好,所以調降保險業資金,國外的投資總額調降,然後呢,讓資金回到台灣投資,建設台灣,帶動科技產業的升級,創造更多的就業機會,然後提升員工的薪資等等,這是我們最重要的目標啦。就是說提升國內是我們的目標,但是我們的方法要用一個比較適合的方法。"},{"start":8042.833,"end":8052.395,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝主委。謝謝委員。好,那我想請我們央行我們的總裁。請央行嚴副總裁。"},{"start":8063.561,"end":8076.535,"text":"央行日前為了打炒房所以調升存款準備率收收銀行1200億的資金那你認為調高這個存款準備率是實質而強力有力的緊縮措施是這樣子嗎"},{"start":8078.581,"end":8106.652,"text":"因為我們只有調生鷹馬他其實回收資金1200億那每一個銀行分攤下來的話有的大銀行大概二三十億這樣子那基本上我們是希望透過這樣子來讓銀行的資金稍微緊縮一下特別在對房地產的放款方面對那這樣子對銀行的一個放貸資金造成一個抑制的效果那所以會不會間接也造成了對物價的波動"},{"start":8107.92,"end":8112.571,"text":"我個人認為沒有那麼直接看不出來有直接的影響"},{"start":8113.806,"end":8142.132,"text":"因為我們還會透過公開市場操作隨時去調整銀行的那個有四項疑慮啦我想請教有四項疑慮第一個就是說貸款利率上升這會增加他們的成本那銀行也可能會提高貸款的利率這部分那第二個就是這個儲蓄利率的調整這個也會實質影響到這些收益那也會反映為了要反映他的成本增加所以去調整這個利率那流動性"},{"start":8143.132,"end":8143.312,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8174.687,"end":8176.028,"text":"王宏威、王委員這兩天金融圈有一個大新聞"},{"start":8196.055,"end":8221.445,"text":"就是傳出來啊國泰金控的三太子蔡振宇他現在並不在金控但是呢他一次準備要買兩家銀行一個金城銀行一個安泰銀行那當然就引起了金融圈的騷動那我想請問一下因為他要買這兩家銀行一定要跟我們金管會申請議法一定要申請目前有沒有任何的接觸"},{"start":8222.76,"end":8247.754,"text":"現在的話我們還沒有收到任何的這個申請我們也沒有你有聽說嗎?在這之前你有聽說這件事嗎?我們是看到媒體報導知道這件事情所以你是看媒體報導才知道這件事情而到目前為止沒有任何申請?還沒有,對好,那第二件事齁那麼蔡正宇如果一次要買兩家銀行的話那麼有沒有違反我們金管會對於金金分離的一個政策以現在來看的話?"},{"start":8248.394,"end":8262.53,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個第一個如果任何一個法人或治安人他要這個取得金礦公司的股權達一定比率以上我們有大股東四格性的規範他有不同的比率不同的要求"},{"start":8263.331,"end":8291.606,"text":"那剛才委員提到的金金分離呢會落實在我們幾個法規的規定比如說你今天是A公司的負責人比如說你是A公司的董事你應該是不可以同時除非是比如說在金控下面有特別法律的排除以外那就要看他接下來比如說這個未來他是用什麼樣的方式取得這樣一個過程才能夠來判定現在判定其實還言之過早他用什麼方式取得這個因為"},{"start":8292.386,"end":8317.588,"text":"他非常有可能用控股公司的方式,他不至於用個人的方式這就要看他整個的申請案背後是怎麼樣來申請因為時間的關係所以我們對於如果今天蔡正宇他真的要買兩家銀行而且這兩家銀行目前狀況也都還好那其實我們也是鼓勵合併但是他有可能會違反我們經濟分離相關政策所以我們在這一部分還是會做嚴審,是不是?"},{"start":8319.409,"end":8344.86,"text":"如果說金金分離它是一個概念就跟上次在這邊有報告就是產金分離也是一個概念當我真的要落實在法令的時候它會有很具體的法規裡面規範的內容每個人對比如說產金分離的想法不一樣金金分離但是我們在執法單位一定是按照規定那我的意思是說它今天如果說是一個未來是先會處理一個叫做股權的購買就是大股東適格性的審核"},{"start":8346.481,"end":8365.923,"text":"二、當取得了以後,他們各自…但他一定要公開吧?他現在不能私下收購?這個就是要看他用什麼樣方的形式可是如果現在訊息出來的話,他應該要做公開的吧?這個就…我們要看到…站在主管間,我會看到你正式的申請文件好"},{"start":8366.664,"end":8381.181,"text":"因為時間關係我覺得這個事情因為他是剛剛有一個訊息喔那麼現在看起來第一個就是有關經濟分離的政策那第二個就是因為他現在其實並不是金控的這個董監事那麼某一個程度因為他現在現在大家就說他為什麼現在那麼有錢是因為是房地產的關係"},{"start":8386.627,"end":8403.96,"text":"所以這部分會不會也是你們比較會特別考量的地方其實報告委員其實現在都是一些臆測的這樣的一個或是報載的這樣詳細內容因為其實根據我們不管是銀行法、大股東、四格性的規範都非常非常清楚的你必須呈送各種的資料"},{"start":8404.62,"end":8422.728,"text":"那這部分我們就按照那個情況才能來來來判斷剛剛講的內容而且比如說我們對於那個資金的所以你們不會因為他是現在是已做房地產然後對這個案子特別的謹慎會不會我們那個大股東四個姓裡面他必須要我記得他必須揭露他那個購買資金的來源"},{"start":8424.603,"end":8424.803,"text":"新光晶合併問題"},{"start":8442.128,"end":8458.924,"text":"在這個主委上任之初我看媒體有訪問過你你也說你是樂見金控診病的你也有四個條件樂見這個金融診病大概其實那個時候都是以新光金那我在這邊要特別提到的"},{"start":8459.344,"end":8480.254,"text":"就是您提到的不管是競爭力、法律規範、市場穩定我覺得也都非常合理但是小股東的權益我認為是非常非常重要的因為在合併的過程裡面它可能是用恰恰特定人或者它有一些種種的因素當然我們最不希望看到的是政治性的因素因為說實在"},{"start":8482.595,"end":8500.225,"text":"現在臺新金的這個獨董名單裡面也出現了我們的前經濟部長但是我們最重視的應該還是小股東的權益那麼主委您同不同意當然比如說我剛才以前有在這個會裡面跟委員報告過"},{"start":8501.346,"end":8520.909,"text":"其實比如說我們在金空公司的合併比如舉例我們金空法18條、26條它都要經過一個股東大會的決議才能做成兩個法人的意思表示決議股東大會本來就是一個就是股東民主的場合這個就是要通過的股東大會這是一個前提要見"},{"start":8522.01,"end":8544.406,"text":"這個就是我們想說這個透過這個部分照顧到小股東而不是說用一個少數的股東可以決定這個問題我想還是回到法制的結構去所以這個小股東的權益的部分希望在機管會這邊能夠幫我們把關當然除了股東消費者也是是沒有錯另外那個主委是"},{"start":8546.168,"end":8561.144,"text":"最近其實經濟日報做了一系列專題有人來特別介紹給我看那特別談到金管會7月1號成立20年我想我那時候當記者的時候那時候剛成立接牌我還去採訪那一晃也就20年了"},{"start":8562.705,"end":8562.965,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8588.826,"end":8588.886,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":8604.66,"end":8619.822,"text":"所以在這個部分也就是說現在的金管會經過20年後現在的金管會還有現在的主委你們所面臨的挑戰事實上是更嚴峻的啦但是某一個程度好處是什麼呢因為你我不知道是不是現在是谷底啦"},{"start":8620.202,"end":8643.128,"text":"你在谷底,你的進步空間就會比較大一點。如果你在巔峰的話,你就隨時在擔心你會不會再下滑。那在這裡面特別提到,我們來看,就說剛才我們特別講到銀行的整併、金控的整併。那麼我也看到他們的專題裡面特別提到,在20年前本國銀行49家,受險公司28家。"},{"start":8644.628,"end":8646.23,"text":"但是經過了20年銀行是38家受險21家所以我們雖然在鼓勵這樣的一個銀行診病、金控診病事實上可能以臺灣因為我們很多是家族性的"},{"start":8659.73,"end":8688.105,"text":"他們可能覺得還是要自己做老闆不願意去跟人家診病但是呢在某一個程度上當你規模太小的時候沒有辦法能夠達到一定規模的時候你的競爭力就有限所以我們放豬四海我們可能跟我們的鄰國跟一些金融中心因為我們的規模太小所以呢我們的競爭力也受到了影響所以我想這個主委應該同意我剛才上面所講的話吧"},{"start":8690.126,"end":8703.021,"text":"金管會的努力應該是持續的這個評比我們有注意到這個評比其實它很多指標就任何一個評比我們都虛心的去檢討但是每個評比都有它的特色比如說剛剛委員"},{"start":8704.182,"end":8730.132,"text":"指正就是說我們的銀行加速減少並不多但實際上我們很多的基層金融業確實少掉很多再來就是他可能忽略一點就是我們有個金控公司制度的成型這點的話確實改變了台灣金融市場的競爭力我想這是很明顯的只是說他在指標裡面並沒有考慮到這一點我想任何一個這個我們都虛心接受但是呢我們還是努力啦當然當然當然就是"},{"start":8730.532,"end":8744.119,"text":"陳副官委員講20年過去了那金管會不會影響下一個20年我想時機我們會好好努力好 非常好另外看到這個受險其實我們今天主要討論到我們的受險資金你也可以看到這20年來我們受險業的資產的規模確實增加非常非常多"},{"start":8752.063,"end":8756.564,"text":"算一算已經達到就是說20跟20年前比我們的資金規模增加了6.5倍所以這裡就是為什麼討論說受險業的資金如何去導入做我們的公共建設但這一點老師說了我用一點點時間講一下我的看法其實呢這個你沒有辦法把牛牽到河邊去一定要求他喝水因為你一定要那個水是好喝的"},{"start":8782.151,"end":8800.415,"text":"這個牛是饑渴的對不對所以在這一點其實我們今天包含財政部、金管會或央行我們有點很重要就是我們的政府是不是能夠去對於有哪一些可以引進我們的受險業、金融業的資金導入的你要有一個好的產品出來比如講我們講說社會住宅"},{"start":8807.117,"end":8816.944,"text":"社會住宅是政府的政策不管是前面的蔡總統或者現在的賴總統那他確實需要大量的資金我記得當時花敬群次長在這邊還說要針對社宅啊他來發這個綠色債券"},{"start":8822.748,"end":8822.768,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":8846.021,"end":8866.402,"text":"AI產業、社宅甚至交通建設你就應該把這些產品拿出來否則我們就說你們去投資你們去投資他往哪裡去投資啊對不對你想想看我們前瞻建設8年8800億我們都覺得哇真的是一個天文數字啊然後被我們罵到臭頭"},{"start":8867.944,"end":8868.064,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8885.595,"end":8900.14,"text":"根本他拿出一部分就絕對可以彌補這八千八百億我們必須說不要八千我們就一半吧對不對你只要有一定的自償率所以如果我們的政府只是天天喊我們要把這個資金導入導入導入"},{"start":8901.34,"end":8920.616,"text":"那你沒有產品啊而且你的自償率你推出來的這些建設自償率都極低甚至呢要100年後才能回本請問一下哪一個我是老闆我也不敢去投啊我真的去算過那些前瞻預算100年後才能回本呢都不曉得那個財務規劃是怎麼規劃的所以我覺得這一點當我們去討論到行政院討論我覺得你們應該大聲的跟他們說請你們設計出產品請你們把這自償率搞好一點"},{"start":8929.483,"end":8929.983,"text":"大會報告"},{"start":8952.742,"end":8977.951,"text":"股市彭主委來已經如一個月前所講的今天23000點站穩2萬點因為1萬點的時候我有請大家吃雞排還有喝珍奶為了要兌現我的承諾11點半我們會準備雞排加珍奶請大家享用11點半的時候"},{"start":8980.759,"end":9005.291,"text":"更期盼股市站穩兩萬點未來打拚經濟有亮點繼續往上拚接著我們現在在三位質詢到王世堅委員我們11點半就會休息大概25分鐘然後再結束再繼續質詢下一位質詢請李彥秀李委員"},{"start":9013.067,"end":9013.428,"text":"請彭主委"},{"start":9032.199,"end":9058.785,"text":"我們看看透過今天的質詢會不會有更多的利多出來我先問一個簡短的提問彭主任我今天聽到你回答其他委員包括新光受險RBC達到200%或他的財務改善計畫他是低標的飛過達標那三商美邦的部分他的狀況他要求他補件那補件的時程的時間大概是什麼時候"},{"start":9060.216,"end":9083.416,"text":"現在就是剛才局長有說明過新光的他的改善計畫應該是我們認為可行所以我們大概合理可行就是達標不是就是說他的計畫可行就是說我們會請他按照他的計畫執行就同意他的改善計畫那三商的部分因為他提的改善計畫裡面我們覺得有些需要釐清比如說剛才局長也說了"},{"start":9083.996,"end":9084.136,"text":"主席"},{"start":9101.53,"end":9101.95,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9122.341,"end":9146.576,"text":"差不多那個時間應該會再提來好,那我知道答案了,謝謝接下來我就直接進入我的正題我要請問主委,就是說4月17號當時的黃天母黃主委提出TWICS第三階段在地化跟過渡性的相關的措施主委你已經上任一個多月就是針對於我們目前第三階段包括"},{"start":9147.757,"end":9148.698,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員"},{"start":9167.876,"end":9192.605,"text":"是,跟委員報告一下就是說我在前幾次的包括第一次的業務報告裡面就說到了其實接軌是一個讓台灣受險業走向更好資本結構的一個方法所以我們過去在黃主委時代已經推出了三階段的調適措施三項的調適措施那距離正式的我們"},{"start":9194.306,"end":9195.948,"text":"要接軌時間2026年開始,我們還有一年半左右的時間。我們會在"},{"start":9202.871,"end":9220.095,"text":"再檢視一次我們會有第四階段的調適你會有第四階段?好那具體的方向是什麼?或者做法是什麼?那時間提出來時間點是什麼時候?具體的方向因為現在我們都要經過試算跟協調但是呢我們有一些方向但現在還不成熟我們就要還是不能講那什麼時候會出來?大概的方向是什麼?"},{"start":9224.656,"end":9247.666,"text":"你不要講得很具體但是籠統的你可以說明的也要大家知道嘛大概方向有兩點其實所謂接軌的條式大概分兩個這個方向一個是叫做在地化在地化就是說比如說IAIS的ICS裡面它對於各種的比如說風險的評估它有一個標準法"},{"start":9248.166,"end":9249.287,"text":"邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。"},{"start":9272.349,"end":9287.421,"text":"這兩條路所以說我們呢現在我們過去所揭示的就是現在是15年但是有些風險我們會重新來思考一下所以這個是跟之前4月18號黃主委宣布你未來會調整在第4階段會調整兩個方向"},{"start":9290.023,"end":9312.922,"text":"前面都會繼續的保留我知道,就這兩點你會增加?就我們還會考慮到讓我們整個時間點要能更適合台灣所以我想在地化,比如說我們的股票係數還有像比如說我們很多對於公建這些係數甚至我們還有很多的這些的係數他們是因為他可能沒辦法考慮到台灣我們自己有自己的資料"},{"start":9313.362,"end":9313.562,"text":"主委主席"},{"start":9332.321,"end":9335.704,"text":"這個我剛剛跟我們報告就是我們下個會期我的預計應該是在11月以前或12月以前應該會公佈這一部分12月底以前會 今年底之前會公佈對 一定會給業者一個衝動的一個調整時間"},{"start":9347.395,"end":9375.28,"text":"因為我今天其實還有另外一個主要的題目局長你可以請回台灣現在有戲盾所謂的科技盾更要有金融盾剛才我提到就是說如果有機會股市佔滿兩萬五千點其實更重要的是主委你一直在提的我們亞洲資產管理中心台灣如果有更好的公建的這個投資標的的話那都是對台灣來說站穩我們的金融盾"},{"start":9375.52,"end":9375.9,"text":"獲得財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會"},{"start":9399.116,"end":9401.077,"text":"主委,你認為台灣的保險業到底缺不缺錢?它資金的缺口到底有多少?"},{"start":9420.65,"end":9445.778,"text":"報告委員這應該有兩個叫資金一個叫資本那我想我們講ICS大家最在意是資本的缺口就是那資金其實我覺得那資本的缺口到底有多少那保險業是不缺資金因為他每年的保費收入因為保險業長期保費那他資本的缺口是多少資本的缺口我剛才講過就是說我們如果要過渡的話我們現在比如說我們現在還是適用舊制的話RBC制度非常明確各家公司都知道"},{"start":9446.158,"end":9461.124,"text":"對,但是現在就是為了要跟IFRS17接軌嘛,所以我們資金的缺口到底有多少?對,所以說現在來看的話,因為現在RBC的這個各家公司應該都非常清楚,我們比如說要滿足200%的這個係數,剛剛委員關切的…要跟IFRS17接軌,2026我們的受險業的資金的這個到底…"},{"start":9470.047,"end":9496.377,"text":"資本缺口到底有多少?這個跟委員報告就是說我們為什麼在今年年底之前要定案我們第四階段的這樣一個這個部分就是要先讓大家確認未來在接軌日的時候你未來長期過渡的目標這件事情現在還沒有定案之前是沒有辦法有個明確的數字再來就是因為各家的條件不同"},{"start":9497.637,"end":9520.858,"text":"主委,因為我後面的題目還沒出來,其實從媒體上的看到,我們無論是為了要跟IFRS7接軌,我們的受險業資金缺口將近有一兆元,這個對他們來說其實非常關鍵重要,對他們來說其實他們也都非常關注這件事情,所以去年我們金管會才會有提出我們發行這個SPV,"},{"start":9523.84,"end":9537.11,"text":"協助我們的業者有多元的投資的管道當然受請業者今年也為了接軌所以他們也發行很多的債券包括國泰人壽、南山、富邦、星光看我這個表格就非常清楚國泰人壽這個發行債券到500億就非常多"},{"start":9542.874,"end":9554.489,"text":"這個部分其實包括新光也發行了80元的債券那特別有關注到SPV就是我們在新加坡發行SPV國泰人壽在6月27號發行了6億元的債券但是超額認購約3倍"},{"start":9559.355,"end":9568.547,"text":"也就是說這幾件這件事情也引起了其他受險業者要要遇事所以為了跟2026接軌包括競選他們財務計劃大家都跑到海外去發行債券這件事情"},{"start":9575.071,"end":9594.931,"text":"主委,我相信你心裡一定有想法,如果這些海外債券可以回到台灣來發行,是不是更好?但是關鍵是,外資到台灣來投資的話,它要扣15%的稅,那這個事情怎麼克服?這就影響到你未來能不能在台灣成立亞洲資產管理中心?"},{"start":9597.192,"end":9619.547,"text":"後續到底怎麼做?主委你的想法是什麼?做法到底是什麼?你有沒有做法?我們希望受險業強化資本方法就來自於比如說現金的資本另外一個就是我們類似次順位的這些債券就是我們可能第一類或第二類的這些對,第二類的資本投資"},{"start":9620.487,"end":9640.76,"text":"對,那當然國內的其實上他有未納是有限比如說他這些購買的對象我們也開放了海外的因為對於我們資本或是對,但是這些海外的他如果可以放在台灣然後我們可以不要扣他稅我們有沒有其他的做法你有沒有想法這個當然就是說"},{"start":9641.801,"end":9669.214,"text":"多元化的籌資我們當然都是反制強化你要人家錢放在台灣外資錢留在台灣最大的就是最具體的方法就是我們現在扣15%的稅我們如何不要扣那麼多或甚至是他可以接受的那這個當然牽涉到跨部會譬如說財政部但是我覺得還有一個方法我可以提供主委就是我們現在有國際保險業務再給我一分鐘我們有國際保險業務如何把"},{"start":9670.054,"end":9683.446,"text":"海外的債券投資把它納入OIU我覺得這是一個思考的模式跟方法主委你同意我的說法嗎我可以來研究這件事情對那這個研究其實就牽涉到莊部長對對不對那部長來部長你請上來請莊部長簡單回答謝謝"},{"start":9690.737,"end":9705.902,"text":"簡單回答因為現在我們國泰到新加坡去發行我們也一樣收不到稅啊但是我們如果把OIU把阿嬤進來的話讓這些海外發行的債券回到台灣發行的話"},{"start":9707.742,"end":9733.616,"text":"我覺得對於整個售銜業錢留在台灣那是個利多我們或許不要收到15%收個2%、3%你還是有增加稅收啊部長你了解我的意思嗎?了解您說的是是是所以要成就主委的亞洲金融資產管理中心我們要有科技盾我們要有系盾我們更要有金融盾"},{"start":9735.846,"end":9758.351,"text":"這個關鍵就在兩位身上如果主委同意我的想法是你的工具之一你可能有工具之二、之三你慢慢來研究這是你的專業但是這個部分就要部長支持部長同意研究朝這樣方向來思考嗎我想這個部分可能我們經過金管會有個具體的一個想法以後我們再來做討論是"},{"start":9760.618,"end":9774.103,"text":"會支持嗎?會支持亞洲資產管理中心嗎?你會不會支持台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之一?這個當然是支持那相關的配合的配套你就要多支持彭主委謝謝現在請黃珊珊、黃偉文質詢"},{"start":9793.527,"end":9794.87,"text":"好,請財政部部長請莊部長"},{"start":9805.18,"end":9828.888,"text":"委員好是部長早謝主席我想今天昨天有看到一個新聞就是健保署石崇良署長他說要成立臺灣癌症新藥基金永續論壇以前我們是菸捐嘛現在他說酒捐酒捐將成為可能的來源之一我想請問一下部長你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":9830.25,"end":9830.45,"text":"主席"},{"start":9860.47,"end":9889.372,"text":"那你支持他的說法嗎?這個部分因為具體的內容其實我們並不還沒有很詳細的了解你跟我一樣我們都是看媒體才知道我覺得一個政策如果有新的狀況必須要很嚴謹第二個賴清德總統他提出的是百億癌症新藥基金所以我看得出來石崇良是在找裁員但找裁員的方式我覺得還要更深重因為這個隨意的說出來會造成社會上大家很多的恐慌"},{"start":9889.992,"end":9911.785,"text":"第二個我們的法規要配合如果要這樣做以前有個菸害防治法現在要先立一個酒害防治法然後你這邊的菸酒稅法可能也要做一些同步的討論跟調整所以部長我還是建議啦行政院這邊希望還是院裡面應該互相討論不應該這樣子衝動的說出來好嗎所以部長你去問一問吧"},{"start":9917.813,"end":9930.707,"text":"你不要跟我一樣要到議場來備問然後才說你不知道好這是第一點第二點我想同步請金管會黃主委黃主委黃主委不好意思"},{"start":9935.262,"end":9959.529,"text":"是兩位部長要請留步喔因為這兩件事情很重要大家都知道我們很關心新清安貸款前陣子卓文泰院長他已經開了相關的檢討會會看到財政部有一些發布那也謝謝部長非常從善如流的把我們所質疑的問題也都納入你的集合接下去的查核方式我想問一下新清安貸款目前"},{"start":9960.77,"end":9968.811,"text":"財政部這一次推出的有一個很奇怪的命令叫做只限一次只限一次的原因是什麼"},{"start":9970.489,"end":9991.502,"text":"我想委員也很清楚新清安貸款它的政策利益良善但是不能作為炒房跟人頭富的一個工具那麼現在我們是希望就是說年輕朋友們這些他可以珍惜這樣一個機會去買他的第一間的房子不知道我只問你只剩一次的原因是什麼是已經有人發生了第二次嗎"},{"start":9993.384,"end":10010.618,"text":"有嗎這個部分我們還繼續在我們還在查也就是說委員其實之前委員也有問過就是說他買了一間用新清安然後賣了又再去用新清安可不可以的問題也有委員曾經提過所以有沒有發生還不知道我們後續會追查來經常會彭主委你認為新清安可以貸款兩次嗎"},{"start":10012.948,"end":10036.382,"text":"買了賣掉賺了幾百萬然後再去買一個無限期的買人頭一直換這是我們原來立法的原因嗎這個我們金管會對於這個所有的貸款是按照我們是做一個整體的這個管理不會特別針對新清安因為新清安是財政部的辦法供股銀行配合所以部長"},{"start":10037.783,"end":10056.65,"text":"這個部分金管會不是你們主管啦但是我覺得這件事情在我們銀行放貸的時候也要做一些查核對 如果它是裡面的內控內基裡面的規範我們就會來處理所以財政部現在查到7月1號有個消息說目前有查到1700多件的人頭戶這個消息屬實嗎"},{"start":10059.394,"end":10059.414,"text":"人頭戶。"},{"start":10081.175,"end":10089.656,"text":"部長我覺得這件事情很重要因為新興家貸款現在已經不管是民間或者是銀行業者或者是"},{"start":10091.062,"end":10091.082,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":10112.137,"end":10113.979,"text":"邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。"},{"start":10133.519,"end":10141.508,"text":"他只是重新核代、還掉利息、還點錢﹐然後呢﹐有沒有受到任何的影響或處罰。"},{"start":10143.308,"end":10146.509,"text":"現在彭主委,我們是不是一般人去申請房貸,我們會做廉政中心的信用評分?"},{"start":10167.799,"end":10184.817,"text":"應該銀行實務裡面他們的自律規範相關應該是有這個也就是說一般的民眾他去銀行借錢曾經有預期或者是相關的還款有問題他都會被記錄所謂的不良信用對吧如果他在連徵裡面有記錄銀行會自行考量是的"},{"start":10186.178,"end":10205.571,"text":"所以現在部長我想問一下如果有人利用了新清單做了假的比如說他沒有自住他被取消了貸款他會不會列入連徵裡面的信用瑕疵需不需要通報這個部分可能也是財政部必須要把它列入考慮的範圍也就是說在台灣我們"},{"start":10207.032,"end":10230.488,"text":"拿政府補助如果你騙了政府你要付出相對的代價而且要受到一定的處罰否則當了人頭也無所謂就會有現在這麼多的人頭無所謂的情況部長我的意見我了解委員的意思就是說應該讓他在這個信用的連徵上要有所記錄我們要讓國人知道不誠實是很嚴重的"},{"start":10231.836,"end":10259.422,"text":"這個部分我們跟金管會一起來討論來做看怎麼樣的一個加注沒錯,如果政府的補助可以隨意的只是單純的取消他無所謂啊下次再去做別的事啊反正他去銀行還是通行無阻今天做了一個新興安撤銷之後他不能再徵請新興安可是他一樣可以繼續做他其他的人頭我的意思是說我們要讓大家知道不要隨便當別人的人頭"},{"start":10260.362,"end":10262.029,"text":"不要隨便欺騙政府"},{"start":10262.432,"end":10266.235,"text":"第三個部分就是我想問一下今天討論的是保險所以就麻煩部長請回"},{"start":10293.933,"end":10315.792,"text":"臺灣現在我們還是一個地震頻繁的地方然後我們臺灣目前為止在921的時候其實政府立法院火速修法通過保險法把保險業要求他們要承保住宅的地震險是的這個已經20年了你知道現在的我們國內法屋投保地震的"},{"start":10316.172,"end":10317.253,"text":"地震險的比例有多少?"},{"start":10335.673,"end":10354.366,"text":"我每次銀行跟我說你又要續約我看看才幾千塊錢一千多塊其實是相對非常便宜又划算的保險保險業是不是不太想推啊還是因為沒有強迫所以就不推如果只有4成20年主委你覺得你滿意嗎"},{"start":10355.026,"end":10372.363,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":10372.563,"end":10390.645,"text":"在沒有地震發生之前大家都認為沒必要花那一千多塊幹嘛但是一千多塊可以保障你在地震如果真的受災了像這是花蓮的災區當年九二一的南投的災區其實很多房子其實求助我們然後政府花了很多後來用捐款"},{"start":10391.286,"end":10413.529,"text":"候政府的公布預算來補助但是我現在要說的是2018到2022年家庭的貸款增長的速度將近是28%也就是我們家庭會去貸款的速度很快速但是房地的資產增長的速度只有10%也就是說我們借的錢遠比我們房屋增值的金額高所以我認為"},{"start":10415.03,"end":10437.412,"text":"這是一個風險管理然後我們看到地震險其實在相關的我們有一個住宅地震險的保險基金它的說法是這是應該是一個政策性的保險主委我只想知道從四層怎麼繼續往前走怎麼讓國人更願意去投保住宅的地震險把房地產的曝險"},{"start":10438.913,"end":10463.405,"text":"將來不要又變成政府要來給一大堆錢補助而讓保險能夠去share如果今天保險公司有這麼多的資產它其實是我們最好的避險是的 這個我們其實上一直都責成地震基金持續的做教育訓練那另外一個就是我們也要那個鼓勵大家購買除了強制以為就剛才講的政策的地震險一般的商業的那個地震險"},{"start":10464.585,"end":10487.719,"text":"這個比率也是比例所以剛剛我主要說主委我們希望它變成政策性它就是一個要大力推廣如果真的不行我覺得有一部分可能將來你要變成政策性的如果一千多塊像我的房子一千多塊我覺得很有保障很高興那保險公司它的發生機率也不高嘛所以對他們來說風險也沒那麼大所以其實是可以精算的出來"},{"start":10488.88,"end":10499.852,"text":"這個費用對一般民眾來說應該是可以接受我希望短期之內在你任內我們努力達到五成可以嗎五成我覺得至少金管會應該把這個當成自己的KPI往前走好的謝謝"},{"start":10512.83,"end":10536.079,"text":"接著請王世堅、王委員質詢王委員質詢完畢,我們就休息一下謝謝主席,我請經管委員彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":10539.588,"end":10559.121,"text":"王偉好,那個彭主委是我們授選業資產總額已經高達36兆而他們可運用的資金32兆當中現在照這個分配比竟然啊國外投資佔了70%"},{"start":10563.624,"end":10564.105,"text":"高達22兆69.73%當然這不能單獨怪你啦"},{"start":10575.848,"end":10596.982,"text":"可是我們先比較一下國外他們各國那麼在受險業海外投資的部分佔多少我們就舉對岸中國好了中國受險業只有2%欸2%的資金到國外去韓國不到10%8.3日本21.6美國12%獨獨我們台灣"},{"start":10607.049,"end":10629.422,"text":"正需要公共建設正需要大家投入我們台灣對我們國家有信心的時候我們竟然放任最大的資金受險業的資金高達百分之七十二十二兆到國外去做投資"},{"start":10635.236,"end":10660.517,"text":"那這些投資在座各位都是金融專家你們很清楚國外這些投資最大的風險第一個戰爭第二個匯率第三連他們的利率表面上高的地方但是你賺了他利息賠了本金我現在簡單講俄國就好俄國"},{"start":10665.273,"end":10672.538,"text":"我們竟然有8家售險業只有他1380億的債券好啦 這1380億通通曝險怎麼講 俄烏戰爭還在打那 不講說這個戰爭好了 售險業說 我不知道兩年前他們會打仗那你至少要知道 俄國那麼極權的國家"},{"start":10695.919,"end":10721.834,"text":"在世界的版圖裡面他是軸心國欸拜託這些壽險業唯利是圖啊利率高啦就去啦好啦他們不但價值理念跟我們自由世界國家不同好啦現在他有戰爭說翻臉就翻臉我光指現在"},{"start":10723.942,"end":10749.921,"text":"光現在這8家有72張投資型保單現在已經被通知了這只是冰山一小小角11億已經通知說這個到時候要預期啦踩雷啦"},{"start":10751.129,"end":10773.844,"text":"所以要等到解禁才能收尾所以啊光這11億有八千萬的資金要損失掉我們的保護根本拿不到錢所以這些受險業就是這樣啊搬人家滾頭部的井酒塞啦賺他要賺賠保護賠就是這樣這八家不只這11億喔"},{"start":10782.235,"end":10805.652,"text":"這11億是被通知到的因為馬上曝險的後續再1380億那個彭主委我本來一上台想問你說哪8家啦後來我想想其實最主要不是你造成的啦你的前任黃天慕主委他在2020年的時候"},{"start":10807.557,"end":10832.479,"text":"他就說啊受選業海外投資這樣的曝險過高金額比例過高啦他說要降結果他從當年啦說要降這四年來越降越高從四年前上任的時候64%拿到海外去現在高達70%"},{"start":10836.861,"end":10866.153,"text":"當然啦他卸任啦他過去也有一些好的表現啦我就不提他啦但是我希望在你的任內尤其受險是你的專業我希望你拿出你的專業堅持你的風骨我認為受險資金投資海外要大幅降低當然財政部也要配合"},{"start":10867.762,"end":10879.326,"text":"那個部長你就在位子上聽著就好啦財政部應該協調各部會把我們重大的公共建設需要資金的公共建設那引領各部會他們趕快跟財政部來協商財政部你幫他們發行公債嘛不是嗎"},{"start":10892.062,"end":10916.388,"text":"有啦 這麼多年來 蔡總統的任內有我們去推了這些大概財政部代為發行的這些以內公債有七大項啦 都很有意義的公共建設從桃園航空城 我們國道建設到高速鐵路哇 這些都非常好 自償性也很高"},{"start":10917.475,"end":10925.42,"text":"可是這7黨加起來才1500億1500億占不到1%天啊這麼努力之下喔那受險業又說啦說啊我們國內財政市場太小啦我們利率太低啦他們是為了保障"},{"start":10943.234,"end":10943.594,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":10975.336,"end":10986.514,"text":"一、現在的利率算了保單的期望值那它賠什麼賠這10年來、這20年來都以各該當時的利率"},{"start":10987.762,"end":11007.072,"text":"不是嗎?然後他額外還賺什麼?他們還賺國內這麼多不動產的投資這些不動產的增值我相信這些經過詳細的計算後那個主委你下去計算一下我有初步的一些概算我認為這些壽險業齁這些業主心思都不單純很邪惡"},{"start":11015.353,"end":11036.799,"text":"第一點他們對我們建設我們台灣建設我們國家沒有信心啊否則你怎麼會說我們國內證券規模太小我就講我們國家發行的公債就好啊國家發行的公債數十年來超過10兆到現在我們國債的餘額公債喔還有5.8兆5.8兆啊"},{"start":11045.168,"end":11053.511,"text":"那你至少能先拿個10%、32兆拿個10%、3兆2來買買國債總可以吧?欸他不!他那不買!這胡說八道嘛!不但!帶頭!對!建設!我們國家沒信心!第二點!嘿!康沙保護!"},{"start":11069.554,"end":11078.901,"text":"他去國外利率高的地方賺他賺現在賠他我剛剛講的俄國這個現在普選啦普選啦已經普選的部分保護就要賠7千萬光11億就要賠7千萬通通賠保護的然後後續他還有1380億這8家所以我希望你私下告訴我哪8家啦"},{"start":11099.417,"end":11127.234,"text":"我們一起想想辦法看怎麼整他們啦幫保護討回公道嘛可不可以呃我們來看一下資料我們再再來如果可以提供我們就提供給委員參考啊表示安寧有資料嘛不是嗎你剛剛說看一下資料再來決定好啦你的因為你剛上任不久我對你不苛責我是對你不苛責但是抱著期許謝謝謝謝委員我期許"},{"start":11128.68,"end":11128.84,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":11150.287,"end":11165.403,"text":"我有計算啦我希望你下去計算一下就是他們講的這些謬論用什麼方式反駁他他說保障保護的收益所以必須到海外去海外啊利率才高我剛剛跟你講嘛"},{"start":11166.203,"end":11187.056,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11187.611,"end":11215.23,"text":"我們有那麼多的建設需要現在除了大型的公共建設欸!另類的公共建設很多啊!社會住宅、長照、社福機構這些也都有他們的自償性都足以讓受險他們的資金回流去投資不是嗎?但是!他們自落網紋、自落無睹"},{"start":11216.809,"end":11231.407,"text":"就是這些業者這麼惡劣的心境所以那個彭主委我因為時間到了齁我對你有期許啦我對部長也有期許啦雖然比較低齁"},{"start":11233.268,"end":11254.072,"text":"但是那個我希望你針對我講的齁那你做一份簡單二要的一些說明私下你告訴我那怎麼來處理好不好一定要降低這些受險業海外投資佔了70%已經到了非常惡劣離譜的地步啦好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":11261.155,"end":11271.315,"text":"現在請那個央行、央總裁還有彭主委還有我們莊部長到前面這邊來我們現在休息"},{"start":11279.618,"end":11289.405,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11313.624,"end":11318.93,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員會．加速建設之推動．加速建設之推動．"},{"start":12816.251,"end":12820.092,"text":"好,我們繼續開會下一位質詢請陳玉珍陳委員謝謝主席我們請這個財政部關務署請莊部長財政部部長先上有關這個離島地區進口商品免徵關稅的這個部分麻煩那個也請關務署彭署長"},{"start":12845.322,"end":12847.212,"text":"委員好中午好"},{"start":12849.212,"end":12877.797,"text":"部長、署長我想請問財政部金馬鵬三線在民國104年曾經提出修正免徵關稅品項及理由會診表本期在上個月也有在這邊質詢關我們財政部離島地區進口商品免徵關稅沒有檢討財政部那時候回答說會後會整理一份資料供本期參考"},{"start":12879.198,"end":12892.376,"text":"理導地區進口商品免徵關稅的項目按照理導條例第10條第二項還有相關的實施辦法原來是89年是公告164項到99年陸續增到320項但是"},{"start":12895.64,"end":12914.167,"text":"看過往的這些進出口這些資料這個歷史雖然適用的辦法有這麼多項320項嘛這樣對吧但是實際上有運用到在110年的話有適用到這個辦法的項目只有一項進口110年到111年只有8項112年15項"},{"start":12920.776,"end":12940.162,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12940.282,"end":12956.239,"text":"就是沒有實際的加惠到離島的居民那三個離島的縣市政府彭湖、金門、馬祖歷年來也都一直有建議增列一些項目比如103年彭湖縣政府有建議增列1000CC以下的小型電動車104年連江縣政府建議增列水產品"},{"start":12961.064,"end":12985.424,"text":"一百零四年金門縣政府和彭先生建議增列砂糖、花生等10項農產品還有鈾料、風力發電、主機、公共汽車、小客車等19項工業產品一百零五年林江先生也建議增列農產品、漁產品、釣魚用具、寢具、家具等42項但是我們財政部都一直沒有同意一直打回票反而是你們原來列這個300多項只有一項兩項是這麼多年來"},{"start":12991.596,"end":13019.48,"text":"獎項 獎項"},{"start":13019.62,"end":13041.95,"text":"那大家都知道事實上我們至少金門的這個綜合中間計畫裡頭一直要把金門我們中央政府核定的中間計畫裡頭一直是要把金門建成就是建立成為這個離島的這個金門成為一個免稅島那事實上這些相關的產品進到金門地區我們那時候也是說一定有幾個規定"},{"start":13043.651,"end":13071.68,"text":"現於地方使用,現於離島當地使用第二個,強化管理措施部長您知道金門現在帶很多東西到台灣來到台灣島來事實上都是要檢查的嗎?你們知道實際的情形嗎?或者是署長您知道嗎?報告委員你是說從離島到台灣本島那是屬於國內線的話對,但是你知道這個通關事實上還是有通關,你知道要檢查嗎?"},{"start":13073.598,"end":13098.577,"text":"你不知道齁?所以你們才會有產生因為你們不了解實際的情形所以你們才會產生這樣的誤解我覺得我們真的是早時間可以去看金門的地區至少在我想馬祖宇、澎湖應該也是一樣金門地區人到台灣來當然要通關我們還要證件、坐飛機也要相關的檢查警察儘管也要做相關的查驗貨物也是一樣農產品或者你帶的東西這個我跟農委會反映很多次帶什麼雞蛋、帶什麼"},{"start":13102.321,"end":13105.744,"text":"海巡署也要做相關的檢查檢查看有沒有是大陸的東西就是說是不是大陸進來的"},{"start":13122.381,"end":13137.654,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":13137.854,"end":13154.346,"text":"各個離島縣市經馬鵬提出來這些相關的建議事實上都是因為當地的產業有需求,您了解嗎?並不是說進來後就大家會轉到台灣,沒有,因為太難了在離島的海運、空運什麼東西都檢查"},{"start":13155.026,"end":13174.204,"text":"根本就是我一直在講像一國兩制兩個國家並不是說我們今天從這裡到臺北到新北什麼東西都不用檢查我們過來這裡什麼東西都要檢查是有限制的而且如果他覺得這樣不對你退運也不讓你出去啊東西不能出到本島來所以關卡是很嚴格的所以我想請財政部重新評估啊"},{"start":13174.804,"end":13188.79,"text":"在貨物線一地道當地使用然後才可以免關稅然後強化管理措施避免流到台灣還有朝免稅導的方向前進的部分這個稅收影響少在政策方面請你們是不是一個月內幫我們評估出來有關品項"},{"start":13192.318,"end":13204.853,"text":"可以嗎跟委員報告那個品項剛剛就委員的說明雖然目前列了320項可是好像用到的非常少所以覺得有點不符合實際可是也跟委員報告就是說離島地區的營業人那他如果"},{"start":13207.976,"end":13234.246,"text":"進口商品然後在當地銷售然後當地用這個部分沒有問題免關稅但是就是說因為離島到我們本島之間的交通在貨物管制上就是剛剛委員也有提到可能有不同種的原因去做檢查但是因為免關稅的關係那他如果進到本島的話那對他的成本就會比較低嘛會影響到國內的產業你有看過此事這麼一二十年來二三十年來都沒有產品這樣進口"},{"start":13235.586,"end":13235.966,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13253.372,"end":13281.598,"text":"連縣政府建議這些品項你們都不採用事實上是有點因為縣政府建議我們還要跟產業主管機關來會商這個部分是不是我們再跟產業主管機關來做評估以後再跟您提出一個出名報告對 經濟部一個月做評估那為經濟部因為這也有涉及經濟部我看經濟部今天有莊委過來經濟部的話經濟部今天來是這個都比較不相干但是這可能也請經濟部把我們這個意見帶回去一個月也做出評估的這個報告經濟部有人來嗎"},{"start":13282.798,"end":13306.096,"text":"經濟部麻煩你把這個意見帶回去這個主席這邊也請那個然後接著我們談到今天的這個保險資金的這個部分那個金管會財政部當然也聽一下這個怎麼樣讓保險資金我們今天討論這個提案就是說讓保險資金多一點留在我們國內因為那時候不是也要也說要把台灣變成這個資產管理的中心嗎要跟留台灣要錢回到台灣嘛"},{"start":13306.536,"end":13307.056,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。"},{"start":13328.773,"end":13356.102,"text":"雖然金額投注在公共建設的資金金額有上升但是占售險業32.65兆里頭不到1%相當的少事實上我知道經管會也有在開始修這些類似這些相關法令來促進這些產業留下來國發會現在當然也在說官會也是支持這個案子盤點一些可以釋出的產業高速公路、再生能源、海淡廠這些讓這個來投資"},{"start":13358.123,"end":13368.983,"text":"那在這個投資上面本席有幾個疑問第一個彭主任您在接受媒體專訪的時候您說金管會希望先找到實驗型個案走一小步確定看到"},{"start":13370.82,"end":13395.865,"text":"外界看到雲島受險資金流在台灣可行債進入跨部會的這個目前有找到什麼實驗型的個案嗎?我們現在還在積極的去規劃比如說我們現在最近我們已經透過跟保險業者密集的去討論希望確認他們的需求然後有這個需求以後我們再看看尋找什麼案源多久內大概可以找到"},{"start":13396.365,"end":13396.505,"text":"實驗型個案"},{"start":13425.612,"end":13451.64,"text":"就報委員如果是金管會能主政的話我就能夠那你覺得還要哪一個部會財政部嗎國發會經濟部因為大部分的案源都不會是我們所能夠提出來的那我們是因為我們是投資方我們希望說能夠盡快找到案源謝謝沒關係我們給你時間再去思考這個問題也不是到今天為止但是還有一個議題我本席更關心的就是說你看保險資金要留在國內現在都因為不留在國內的原因我想大部分的"},{"start":13452.68,"end":13474.26,"text":"當中的原因是因為﹐也許國內的投資標定﹐它的投報率比較差﹐錢都是﹐資金都是往投報率高的地方去﹐所以事實上我們國內這個創造好的投資環境﹐是你們的責任﹐財政部這邊也是你們的責任﹐那所以除了這點以外﹐本期更關心的是﹐即便保險業資金回來﹐在國內的各個縣市﹐在裡面評估投資以同﹐我們離島地區﹐"},{"start":13475.862,"end":13499.394,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13499.514,"end":13528.601,"text":"要怎麼樣有更優惠的方向、政策來提出讓民間的更有意到金門投資金管會也是一樣你們說要研議保險業者投資國內的相關獎勵措施一樣到金門去要怎麼樣因為平行來講我們金門就更偏遠了那就更不容易我舉一個例子給你們齁那請你們在一個月內提出相關的保險業赴旅島地區投資之具體優惠措施方案還有金管業也要提出來喔那我舉一個具體例子給你們參考齁一句話而已"},{"start":13530.067,"end":13546.265,"text":"這個醫學衛福部針對像基本因為人少那做醫療就不容易獲利嘛所以大概很多醫療產業都不願意過去但偏遠地也是需要好的醫療所以衛福部有一個方案他用醫學中心資源離島醫療"},{"start":13547.887,"end":13573.527,"text":"他就有一個獎勵計畫接著他有在評分裡齁要求如果比如你是籠總你就要支援你要當醫學中心你就必須到偏鄉離島去支援這是列入考核列入評分然後還有列入相關的這個計畫我想這個給你們參考啦齁在醫療部分齁或者是以後我們離島的公共建設部分我也希望你們在一個月內做出相關的這個政策評估方案具體的好嗎可以嗎"},{"start":13577.598,"end":13580.3,"text":"一個月內給我報告謝謝主席有請金管會主委請彭主委"},{"start":13602.592,"end":13625.28,"text":"委員好主委好首先我要謝謝我們的趙偉主席慶祝台股兩萬三千點的行情要請大家一同的來吃雞排喝珍奶在這邊謝謝趙偉那今天我覺得既不可思啦我們也安排了保險業的資金要投入公共建設"},{"start":13626.88,"end":13646.724,"text":"讓我們國內的整個經濟體質能夠更加的強壯所以在這裡先請教一下主委您提供的金管會資料有提供一個民間參與公共建設的情形裡頭寫到2013到2023這10年間民間參與公共建設的案件數大概有1262件"},{"start":13654.045,"end":13676.628,"text":"投資的金額大約是1兆5000多億那其中保險業投資的37件他的金額是3244億如果以投資金額來看的話這個保險業在民間參與公共建設的佔比大概是22%那請教主委您覺得這個比例是高還是低"},{"start":13678.269,"end":13698.437,"text":"這個是財政部所提供的資料他是從促參的角度來看我們金管會的統計資料是從我們的保險法的分類來區分不過不管是哪一個的數字都顯示保險業投資在公共建設是偏低的"},{"start":13699.357,"end":13723.51,"text":"所以是偏低那我們再看一下他投資的項目內容如果我看到資料他是寫說像物流中心、商業設施四件、文教設施兩件、觀光油氣的設施、運動的設施、交通的建設各一件您看到這一些投資標的項目主委您覺得如何?"},{"start":13724.635,"end":13753.562,"text":"其實這裡面因為按照保險法令它是有公共建設專案運用跟長照那個社福事業大概是這個三大類當這裡面比如說公共建設還有像比如說專案運用那就蠻多元即便公共建設其實它項目也蠻多元的只要吻合我們那個上面規定的要件都是所以它項目會蠻多的可能很多跟我們想像是不太一樣不太一樣那我請教一下主委因為您剛剛有說嘛"},{"start":13754.974,"end":13759.319,"text":"主要障礙的話,我有上次有提到假設我們用比較淺顯來提的話,第一個就是他需要有標的"},{"start":13772.395,"end":13774.057,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員會．加速建設之推動．加速建設之推動．"},{"start":13792.419,"end":13821.569,"text":"就讓保險業所能選擇的那個項目就比較少這是我們的比較大的困難因為我也看到金管會就是您剛剛所提的那幾個條件就是適合保險業投資的六個條件您剛剛都自己說出來了那總而言之因為這個資金是來自於人民民間所以呢需要穩定長期合理的報酬是它一個很重要的條件那您覺得合理的報酬率大概要多少"},{"start":13821.909,"end":13822.149,"text":"主席"},{"start":13842.135,"end":13842.936,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":13870.228,"end":13884.655,"text":"比如說我們也有去觀察國外的一些例子比如說我們有看到國外他們把他們的電廠電廠他會跟比如說民眾收電費他可以把比如說未來幾年的收入先把它做個證券化"},{"start":13885.876,"end":13886.976,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員會．加速建設之推動．加速建設之推動．"},{"start":13913.166,"end":13913.186,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":13924.79,"end":13924.95,"text":"長照安養激工"},{"start":13948.51,"end":13977.669,"text":"因為你知道我們偏鄉目前政府長照做得多好多好像我們的部落文化健康站做得很好很好也有效成功的去縮短原住民跟全體國人的平均餘命差距但是做得最不好的就是沒有安養機構所以我很在意這一塊那我想要請教您就是目前保險業投入長照的話它的一個法規上有沒有什麼障礙"},{"start":13978.71,"end":14000.539,"text":"那你們有沒有跟衛福部討論過這個問題我們的長照的部分其實按照我們剛才講保險法146條之四裡面它其實上就已經有規範可以做這些事情只是說因為長照事業在其他部會裡面也是他們等於說算是管理的一個事業它有它一定的要求比如說"},{"start":14001.559,"end":14024.338,"text":"我們保險業想投資的住宿式的長照機構而言因為這部分是長照法人法裡面還是長照機構的那法規裡面有規定一些限制比如他對董事的這個席次的上限只有三分之一我們保險這邊可以同意到三分之二再來他的那個盈餘分配的時候他必須先扣除比如10%或20%"},{"start":14025.979,"end":14026.079,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14042.515,"end":14062.763,"text":"現在進入到我們這個金管會主委這個職務那你也是主導政策法規那請問剛才我問的這個問題那您會不會去著手來排除這些法規上的障礙也能夠積極地跟做一個跨部會的協商去成就這些問題"},{"start":14064.624,"end":14079.411,"text":"這當然是我們努力的方向比如說其實我們保險法這邊假設我們要突破這個障礙其實有時候要發揮一點創意比如說我們保險法146-6可以做保險相關事業的投資那假設有一個類似的長照服務公司"},{"start":14080.211,"end":14096.888,"text":"那他可以提供我們很多長照機構一些長照的服務的話保險公司在投資這種公司也是間接的可以做到這些事情說不定這個我們可以發揮一些創意再來跟各個部會來溝通說不定我們可以化解彼此的法規障礙"},{"start":14098.03,"end":14110.545,"text":"主委就是我希望您可以朝這個方向多去引益啦就是除了去放寬投資比以外我覺得有更多的一些精進的措施、做法希望你可以朝這個地方邁進因為我自己是認為說"},{"start":14115.571,"end":14143.926,"text":"當大家去提到我們要去看醫療的看長照機構的或者是去做自來水的普及其實都有一個問題同樣的問題都是集中於都會啦我們比較希望說他能夠去照顧到我們偏鄉的需求那到底怎麼樣去引進資金願意在合理的報酬之下願意來參與這樣的投資我覺得這是金管會財政部很重要的一個任務並且我個人是覺得啦"},{"start":14144.266,"end":14158.786,"text":"就是隨著國內這個固定資本形成毛額年增率逐漸的成長其實引導資金回台對我來講它不是最急迫的需求我覺得比較重要的是更細膩的政策規劃"},{"start":14159.667,"end":14159.827,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14180.666,"end":14201.282,"text":"如果說是約6千億如資料上所寫的僅佔可運用資金33兆的1.86%那顯然仍有大量的保險業資金可以嘗試導入到臺灣的公共建設所以我在這邊就是特別向我們偏鄉很多財聘校、大學也在關"},{"start":14202.583,"end":14202.683,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":14221.135,"end":14228.339,"text":"金管會財政部就是進一步的幫我們歸納研擬適當的指標作為保險業資金導入不同公共建設的類型跟模式的一個評估標準那也希望請金管會財政部針對長照、幼托、社宅這些公共建設研議怎麼加強引入保險業資金那我也希望說我剛剛關心的這個住宿型的安養的機構可不可以去責定一個偏鄉先去試辦一個沙盒計畫來做做看"},{"start":14250.47,"end":14251.811,"text":"主委,您的意見如何?"},{"start":14290.638,"end":14312.219,"text":"下一位我們有請羅明才召委主席、二人出列席、官員大家好主席可不可以請彭主委好,請彭主委那其他相關的國發會還有經濟部、交通部麻煩一同"},{"start":14316.141,"end":14343.835,"text":"主委你好,自從你上來擔任金管會主委我覺得這個位置非常的重要所以本席大概要送給你兩個禮物第一個禮物其實大家事情越變越明照理說我是在野黨我來提這個最開心的是賴清德賴總統"},{"start":14346.325,"end":14374.972,"text":"你想想看為什麼新加坡為什麼杜拜平均的薪資啊年輕人啊可以到台幣大概10萬甚至來更多因為新加坡匯集了全世界很多的投資的資金錢潮滾滾當然接下來接下來就是領的薪水也跟著水賬傳高啊"},{"start":14376.034,"end":14392.698,"text":"這個很簡單的道理嘛所以你們講話要小心啊搞不好賴總統一直在注意保險法164條之事這個如果過的話台灣股市馬上有機會上看3萬點今年年底11月5號美國總統的選舉答案就要揭曉了現在目前川普"},{"start":14403.683,"end":14431.248,"text":"大概有百分之六、七的以上的支持度你要調整一下思維哦很多的報導講川普當選他一定是生意人啊他把經濟搞得沸沸揚揚所以當美國的資本市場繼續再漲兩萬點以上的時候你想想看台灣做好準備了嗎所以這是本席啊要送你的"},{"start":14432.25,"end":14459.973,"text":"第一個禮物啊你上台第一個禮物啊就今天要討論這個聰明的政治人物啊不要站在錯的位置思考事情今天這個條例啊如果是站在全民年輕的立場大家是舉手贊成的唷唯一反對的是誰各位啊王世堅、王委員剛講得很清楚啊反對的就是保險業者"},{"start":14461.564,"end":14490.629,"text":"因為利益沒有啊錢到海外天高皇帝遠大家管不到但是全民希望的是錢回來投資台灣跟留台灣啊第二個問題啊就當然沒有投資的標的20年來當初這些資金如果沒有出去台積電外資的持股就不會超過75%以上反而是另外一個角度來看"},{"start":14491.909,"end":14516.314,"text":"每一家保險公司可能啊他們手上是滿手的台積電今天AI的時代來臨NVIDIA揮打的黃恩勛董事長他也是台灣人啊連他都想要回到台灣要跟流台灣要把總部放在台灣的時候"},{"start":14518.047,"end":14542.793,"text":"其他的授權業其他的往外跑的這些企業到底心裡在想什麼好好做嘛把台灣做好做大做強讓大家豐衣足食留在台灣不是很好嗎把台灣變成下一個新加坡嘛把台灣變成下一個瑞士嘛那不是一個很好的場景嗎"},{"start":14544.008,"end":14567.177,"text":"所以這是第一個所以我請教你你的看法怎麼樣因為早做晚做起碼都要做啦但是有人講說一次進來9兆立法院有什麼不能協商的主委你講兩句話我也會同意你啊不要調降一半調降個10%吧調降10%的話回來是多少錢調降10%的話4.5兆"},{"start":14574.206,"end":14601.4,"text":"大概一趴就是大概4千多億再來主委你如果講一句話不要一次進來啊你分批啊慢慢進來啊你分10年我會不同意嗎我的目的不是叫他一次9兆都回來啊我目的是站在台灣年輕人的立場啊我要幫年輕人加薪啊如果9兆回來年輕人的薪水沒有往上漲的話"},{"start":14603.12,"end":14614.794,"text":"那我的薪水全部捐出來我全部捐出來我跟你講我講這個方法也不是第一天第一天我不會講這些事問題我在立法院已經30年了"},{"start":14617.045,"end":14640.03,"text":"我都知道什麼原因,大概戲名卡卡顧,就是外人就知道那個事情,知道那內容,重點是在哪裡了。所以我也希望主委,你身負重任,那你也可以從善如流。過去沒有做的,我們期盼金管會,不是只有管理,而是要"},{"start":14640.818,"end":14652.607,"text":"堅負發展的一個重責大任所以我們希望你提出來的一些方向包括你這重大公共建設所以也麻煩你聽一下請交通部交通部國外的例子可以投資當作標的工建大概有什麼高速公路可不可以機場可不可以"},{"start":14667.264,"end":14681.759,"text":"你們手上大概有什麼案我們今天提這個案其實就是一個催化劑啦你們20年來通通都不做那你們做點事啊來請問你說有什麼項目可以提出來讓保險業者投資的"},{"start":14683.906,"end":14705.511,"text":"我們交通部那個復產、民間餐飲的案件大概近5年來總共有3600多億平均每年簽約的案件有700多億那我們並沒有去排除特別去排除說投資的對象是誰所以有什麼東西可以提出來大一點的大一點的就是那個剛剛講的"},{"start":14708.953,"end":14729.783,"text":"就是我們部署機關包括高工局、鐵道那些他們如果有土地或是工程他想要促進民間參與我們都會鼓勵他們提出來那我們每年會統一的案件辦理遭上大會向對外遭上那請問一下整個環島打通的高鐵有沒有可能?"},{"start":14734.333,"end":14756.861,"text":"如果說評估完可以那個效益夠應該也是不可能的。效益一定夠啊。你要為台灣未來的10年20年來想嘛。我們現在做事是要為以後的子孫來想一些未來的去路嘛。比如說,如果兩岸和平,"},{"start":14758.464,"end":14785.974,"text":"大陸還有全世界觀光客來臺灣請問他需不需要一條快速的環島高鐵需不需要這個超乎我能夠回答的範圍好啦那個很多限制限制了你的思考跟回答但是大家心裡都知道你要講的答案"},{"start":14787.16,"end":14812.635,"text":"我們希望你多找一些好案子然後多評估一下提供給其他各部會來做參考謝謝另外請國家發展委員會請問你們準備好了嗎?如果這些資金陸陸續續的回來你們有沒有什麼好的案子可以提出?"},{"start":14813.593,"end":14835.838,"text":"我們正在協同相關部會在評估適合促參的案源特別是要符合那個受險業他們要求的長期穩健的報酬比如說出戶盤點可能有一些比較具有這個穩定收益的像是會展中心、污水下水場或者具有公益性質的像是文化場館這些我們會優先來推動"},{"start":14837.776,"end":14858.795,"text":"那他的收益有沒有辦法,OK?就是還在評估中大於3.875有沒有可能?就是後續還需要一些評估,是有齁?要再評估,這樣好,再評估一下好,那個交通部我再請教一下就是目前台灣的高速公路他都有收費他算一算,你頭炮利率是多少?"},{"start":14863.441,"end":14885.019,"text":"這個數字我目前沒有因為我不是監理他們這個國道的AOC因為交通部是你們管的啊你們應該要準備好沒關係請你盤點一下交通部所管的到的可以提出超過投報大概是3.8以上的好不好"},{"start":14886.36,"end":14911.835,"text":"交通部整理一下。你把資料拿給主委,拿給財政部長。好,謝謝。那接著還是請主委。是,謝謝。黃主委,我很認同你講的,讓台灣成為亞太的資產管理中心,那這裡面牽涉到很多人才要回流的問題,也請部長可以思考一下。"},{"start":14913.406,"end":14941.952,"text":"關於資金來關於人才來課稅的問題看能不能鬆綁所以我們有一些地方課稅課太重了希望這個部分部長也可以跟主委好好聊一聊我們大家共同努力其實就是愛台灣要把台灣做強做大好不好報告委員剛剛提到就是有關那個"},{"start":14943.414,"end":14968.327,"text":"希望保險業加強投資財產我想大家都應該會支持那我們當然首先要解決案源的問題再去說這個剛剛委員提到那個修法我們希望有一個更明確的做法否則以現在來看的話大家就會有這個疑慮立刻會有這些那個資金的移動影響到我們的資本市場以及受險業財務健全我想這個大家的顧慮應該是在這邊好 謝謝主委大概想說這慢慢來啦沒關係啦"},{"start":14969.528,"end":14997.96,"text":"二十年通通不做就從今天當是一個起點也不見得一次要調降一半分年一次5%、5%分析也是可以接受最後因為時間關係我還有第二個禮物要送給你你猜得到嗎?剛剛已經收過一個禮物了蠻開心的那個是小菜兩三碟再送你一個禮物就是當沖降稅年底就到了"},{"start":14998.496,"end":15006.922,"text":"我們趕快把它提通過讓這個整個資本市場不要有一個不確定的因素一直綁在那個地方你正不正統"},{"start":15007.971,"end":15036.684,"text":"我們的立場已經很明確的表達給財政部我們也有跟財政部做蠻多協商幫我們所有有關我們金管會所主管的職責的考慮全部已經提供給那個財政部因為是財政部在主政我們會配合他們的時程來辦理所以主委你贊成嗎?當沖降稅繼續延長我們是贊成就是還是維持現在的當沖降稅至於說那個期間的部分幾年?就是那個期間部分這是財政部的那個職權我們是尊重你需要提一個啊?"},{"start":15037.264,"end":15037.644,"text":"下一位有請黃國昌委員"},{"start":15074.653,"end":15079.876,"text":"謝謝主席,事事麻煩有請我們金管會的彭主委,並有請中央銀行的嚴副總裁。"},{"start":15090.732,"end":15117.774,"text":"主委好、副總長好時間的關係我們直接切入正題上一次我有請教主委針對P2P的事情前一任的主委他是推指導原則但是金管會針對P2P沒有實際上面的納管跟其他的國家有納管、有監理、有登記的管制差別非常多在完全沒有管制的情況之下導致了現在P2P"},{"start":15118.835,"end":15148.115,"text":"成為詐騙集團,拿來詐騙的工具,那也導致了很多家破人亡的事情。上一次,上一屆的主委在詢答的時候承認說他們所推的那個自律規範根本沒有法律效力,違反了這個自律規範不會有任何法律效果,甚至也沒有辦法作為民法上面請求權的基礎。"},{"start":15149.135,"end":15177.224,"text":"那針對這樣一個完全沒有法律效力的自律規範我上一次請教主委主委說會回去想一想現在時間到了你目前的規劃如何是上次委員有提到就是有提到問我說蓄芯科技比如這家公司的案子知不知道我們回去也好好去跟我們局裡面討論再來我們也有關注到接下來就很多的他們的帳戶被停掉了"},{"start":15178.104,"end":15200.914,"text":"這件事情我們有去好好去關注我們有看到剛剛那個個案是因為它在兩個不同的地檢署之間有不同的如果主委不好意思我先打斷一下不好意思就是說個案的部分歸個案的部分我現在在請教您的是您管制的立場是要銷歸朝誰你還是沒有打算要管嗎還是用自律的方式嗎因為我剛剛已經提示你了"},{"start":15201.674,"end":15212.467,"text":"對那個自立的規範是毫無法律效果違反了也不會有任何法律效力那對於前面的主委他所採取這樣的政策您還是採取一樣的立場嗎這是我的問題"},{"start":15215.706,"end":15242.958,"text":"這一部分其實行政院有指定金管會為這個統籌的對P2P的統籌機關所以比如說最近的話我們也是希望積極的輔導他們兩個那個工會能夠成立工會我們等一下再討論我現在問題還是一樣啦之前中央銀行整理出來了其他各個國家P2P他們管制的態度有的要登記有的要執照但不管怎麼樣"},{"start":15244.755,"end":15267.576,"text":"都會有一定程度的管制但在台灣我們現在針對P2P是完全沒有在管用一個毫無法律效力的自律規範到底要做什麼所以我才說您作為新任的主委我上次第一次在質詢您的時候請教您你需要時間位給你時間你現在的立場有改變嗎?你還是打算要放任P2P?就這樣下去嗎?"},{"start":15270.374,"end":15279.72,"text":"應該我我後來瞭解應該是他應該是要分階段就像我們在對那個VASP的管理也一樣是分階段按照他發展的你現在打算分幾個階段"},{"start":15280.929,"end":15303.508,"text":"現在比如說現在是用自律規範還有透過銀行之間的這樣的往來的方式不是啊我們就打開天窗說亮話嘛就違反了自律規範會有什麼法律效果就沒有啊當然自律規範不是我們的行政處分也不是這樣確實是這樣對啊那現在大家都在關心這件事情啊還要等到下一次有更多人受害的時候金管會才要痛定思痛嗎"},{"start":15305.171,"end":15331.266,"text":"對,所以這部分的話我們也在思考一下就剛才委員有你會需要思考多久我們就是還要還要因為這畢竟是過去在金管會在整個在做管理的時候確實我們在過去對機構管理跟行為管理在這兩塊方面我們必須要先釐清這部分當然我們現在是可能會優先管理是行為管理就是未來像比如說消費者保護的部分我們會先你要做行為管理也沒有問題啊"},{"start":15331.966,"end":15351.121,"text":"他問題是你行為管理的作用規範在哪裡就絕對不是這個自律規範嘛他沒有法律效力嘛這個我們已經有共識了嘛你訂的這個自律規範根本沒有法律效力然後剛剛你所講的P2P業者的商業同位公會從去年就說要設喔設到今年成立了嗎"},{"start":15351.701,"end":15353.483,"text":"當P2P出現了這麼大的問題這麼多人受害所有的人在問政府的態度是什麼"},{"start":15371.365,"end":15396.317,"text":"我們的政府是沒有態度只有一個沒有法律效力的自律規範推說要給業者去自律要成立同業工會結果這句話講了一年多到現在同業工會還沒有成立確實我們是很積極的在推動這件事情不過這個有它一定內政部的程序在處理這件事情我們也前一陣子還在協調這件事情"},{"start":15397.065,"end":15411.85,"text":"所以我這樣講好了啦我覺得站在監督的立場善盡我們的原則該說的都說了該做的都做了那監管會如果繼續採取這樣子立場的話我覺得非常的危險"},{"start":15413.05,"end":15432.775,"text":"非常非常的危險下一次炸彈什麼時候炸多少人受害最重要的是不僅僅是誰要負責被害人怎麼辦我希望諸位您再回去好好想一想這樣下去對嗎這樣算是一個負責任的金管會嗎"},{"start":15434.213,"end":15453.19,"text":"這部分我們會委員的指示確實我們一直都非常放在心上但是我們就想說我切入第二個主題上次我有請教你說針對我們現在整個房價飆漲跟背後市場的資金有密切的關係"},{"start":15454.531,"end":15470.143,"text":"之前央行就警告不動產貸款佔比35.8%已經太高了這是在2020年的時候央行的報告所提出來的他說這樣子會導致房價偷脫住來非常的危險必須有"},{"start":15471.664,"end":15488.127,"text":"必須要處理這是2020年央行所提出來的警告上次我們在詢答的時候你也認同嘛銀行的資金不可以拿來炒房因為35%點多央行在2020年說已經比例太高了嘛"},{"start":15489.348,"end":15501.618,"text":"結果現在不動場販款的比例到今年5月已經到37.13了比央函說太高還要高它實際上面所造成的效果"},{"start":15504.841,"end":15527.27,"text":"六都的房價大幅上揚Base Line是2016年這個是我取得的Data我自己計算出來的應該是不會有錯那現實上面我上次請教你這個問題認為說銀行法72條之二的後門要怎麼處理那你也跟我說針對這一件事情你們會去跟央行來做一個開會做一個協調這個開會跟協調的會發生了嗎?"},{"start":15533.74,"end":15562.94,"text":"就在委員詢問的第二天我就親自去這個這個這個拜訪總裁我們對這個問題呢就做了深入的討論有什麼結論那總裁跟我的討論就是說因為央行的職責是在做穩定金融他希望我們就是說希望我們針對72之2條的後面的段數部分能夠做做一些更明確的界定或一些檢討或是一些提議央行總裁做了這樣的建議金管會接下來做了什麼"},{"start":15563.44,"end":15587.747,"text":"我們接下來回來就請銀行局呢就檢視一下72條之二的部分大家對這個部分因為前面的部分我們是有30%的限制那後面一些但書比如說包括一些廠房啦包括一些比如說我上次就有跟您講過嘛就是因為你們後門開的太大了所以搞到本來法定是30嘛現在已經到37.13了嘛30喔現在到37.13了"},{"start":15592.068,"end":15612.816,"text":"那金管會所需要時間去檢討這個後門要不要做更明確的界定這個是央行總裁給的建議嗎主席站起來了我必須要尊重主席你們還需要多少時間可以把這個檢討做出來我們現在正在正在檢討中那其實需要多久問一下局長這邊"},{"start":15614.653,"end":15637.462,"text":"他會在一個月一個月之內把你們最後檢討的結果怎麼評估的最後結論是什麼72條之二透過行政命令所開的後門所開的後門要不要重新的去做處理這件事情一個月之內提書面報告給所有的委員可以嗎可以沒問題好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":15646.38,"end":15648.441,"text":"接著請林楚英、林委員謝謝主席主席有請金管會彭主委、保險局施局長、財政部莊部長還有國庫署的陳署長"},{"start":15669.796,"end":15695.678,"text":"陳署長那我先從金管會開始好了主委是這樣我想上個月中國公布了這個反台獨的意見法規我不知道您這裡是不是有了解因為他的這個所謂長臂管轄的部分大家比較專注在的是有關於最高可以判處死刑但是事實上他在實施的時候如果你違反第二條跟第七條是可以並處沒收財產"},{"start":15698.22,"end":15726.926,"text":"本席特別了解到的是我們知道我們的金融三頁當中投資中國的部分當然負險逐年在下降但是根據我的統計跟了解目前有五家人壽跟兩家產險分別是國泰人壽、台灣人壽、星光人壽、凱基人壽、富邦人壽以及國泰、世華產險跟富邦產險他們都有轉投資中國的人壽或產險"},{"start":15728.106,"end":15733.649,"text":"他的比例高則超到達50%少的也有12%當中國可以針對他所祭出的台獨新法規包括你說什麼獨立宣傳什麼策劃什麼台獨啊然後加入國際組織等等我強調喔加入國際組織喔"},{"start":15750.98,"end":15774.162,"text":"這就違反了他們對於台獨的界定這些中國投資都是屬於台灣企業的資金如果他要的話他說了算他可以沒收這些財產所以我想請問的是主委現在面對受險業投資中國的相關的風險評估有沒有調整"},{"start":15775.247,"end":15803.355,"text":"現在就是我們也最近剛剛收到這樣的一個訊息跟也正在密集的研討我們就委員您的資訊非常及時我們現在才剛剛完成一個內部討論我們正想要說怎麼樣來因應我想這件事情確實是我們有這麼多的銀行保險公司在大陸還有包括很多的從業的我們的國人所以這部分我們也是會密切關注我們也正在"},{"start":15803.935,"end":15832.587,"text":"所以這個討論完成了嗎?要花多少的時間?是不是可以先回應就是因為因應這個所謂台獨的新意見而且還有懲罰在裡面所以整個風險要更拉高不只是旅遊警戒變成色啦連投資相關的規定包括如果未來還有公司要申請到中國來做資金的投入的時候是不是態度會不一樣?"},{"start":15834.18,"end":15851.653,"text":"這部分我們也是在過去我們在金管會在主管這些兩岸投資的這個時候從來都沒有發生過的事情那這件事情我們是前一陣子會議呢都是由我們副主委參加所以我們最近剛好這一兩天就要討論這件事情我想剛剛委員您的指示我們現在"},{"start":15852.774,"end":15874.25,"text":"我現在可能沒辦法馬上告訴你時程但是我們會密切來注意這件事情好,是不是可以給我一個時間表至少我們知道你們有在討論之外什麼時候因為投資的這樣的事情跟評估的風險也要必須讓台灣的壽險業或者是其他的銀行業知道說我們現在在做這方面還是說你需要再跟包括壽險公會、銀行公會來做討論再完成也沒有關係是"},{"start":15878.912,"end":15897.587,"text":"當然這部分牽涉到說業者以外還有我們其他的對這個更熟悉的部會可以給我們更多的指導所以我們會再來做一個比較詳細的評估因為這部分我們如果說委員覺得我們什麼時候完成我們當然這個是一個狀況我們要必須要趕快主委我明確的來講啦這個台獨的22條出來之後這"},{"start":15903.391,"end":15924.12,"text":"臺灣保險業在中國經營的狀況這樣羅列出來,經營的風險是不是拉高了?這個應該答案是肯定的嗎?所以你才會來做這個相關的指引。這個新的變數啦,新的經營變數,我想說任何一個業者在當地經營都應該要注意,我們身為主管機關當然也是要非常關注這個議題。"},{"start":15925.04,"end":15941.346,"text":"好,我期望你們能夠在一個月以內先跟相關的單位來做徵詢跟諮詢然後把這個包括是不是要針對重新評估跟封控的部分有一個一定的方向出來好不好是,可以,謝謝好,再來我要請的是莊部長"},{"start":15942.765,"end":15966.886,"text":"莊部長我們知道其實公股行庫有包括這幾家他們我就不足以念了我們公股行庫幾乎都有在中國設立子行我們當然知道這38個一頁據點當時是為了服務台商但是現在如果就我前面講的這22條出來之後行員的人身安全我們怎麼保障有沒有行員現在表示說我去那裡我可能怕怕的來"},{"start":15969.493,"end":15987.112,"text":"根委員報告目前來說當然有一些外派到那邊的航員他們主要考量就是生活上的一些適應或方便性的問題倒是我們還沒有跟航庫那邊了解就是在那麼當地的一些已經在當地的航員有沒有表達一些在"},{"start":15988.686,"end":16009.006,"text":"感覺上有一些不同或者是有關於行員的人身安全的部分我也希望國庫署這裡跟財政部要重新做一些人身安全的評估你要知道從7月1號開始他們甚至於是入出鏡可以檢查你的手機如果今天你的手機被發現你有看臉書搞不好這就是一個不適合的"},{"start":16009.426,"end":16029.206,"text":"如果他今天去點選了相關的新聞或者是他本身就是中華民國底下公股財政部的公股行庫會不會涉及人身安全所以相關的人身安全的保障跟討論我希望財政部也能夠做進一步的理解甚至於能夠有進一步的規劃好嗎好我們來做一些關懷的了解"},{"start":16032.449,"end":16046.765,"text":"好最後時間有限我想把這個題目全部的問完我要問的是彭主委主委我們知道金融三業當中有關於對中破險的部分保險受險業事實上已經大幅下降了73%"},{"start":16048.607,"end":16073.974,"text":"那麼因為中國的經濟下行我認為啊,證券或者是期貨基本上他們根本哀鴻遍野剛剛稍早之前我們的羅昭偉還在慶祝我們這個台股上兩萬三吃了雞排吃了珍奶所以我想這個證券期貨業投資中國的獲利也不大大概會有所來遲疑也不會再前進但是銀行業的部分降幅只有37%所以金融業對於中國資產"},{"start":16077.415,"end":16078.015,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員會．加速建設之推動。"},{"start":16094.523,"end":16121.517,"text":"下降到什麼樣的一個目標值是,報告委員目前的我們的標準是它曝險除以淨值是百分之百但是現在最高點是77%現在降到22%是銀行保險的部分基本上佔它資金可能不到1%那證券呢大概是佔1.68%左右的淨值在過去這麼多年來其實特別是疫情以後我們已經大幅的下降在在中國的"},{"start":16121.997,"end":16144.635,"text":"中國大陸那個曝險金額我想這部分我們金管會在不只是只有單一地區我們對所有地區都會嚴密的監控這樣一個別例因為這個昭偉已經站起來了我只要強調是銀行如果曝險還有一兆確實是可以有下降的空間另外在二屋戰爭的時候我們曾經針對二屋戰爭金管會當時是有要求金融機構落實機構投資人"},{"start":16147.657,"end":16170.172,"text":"禁責、治理、守則以及ESG在這個部分我們都知道中國既然把我們視為敵對勢力對我們真的是連漁船都直接拖走的時候要不要投資這麼多在中國我也請金管會能夠參照二屋戰爭當時的一些投資準則來做思考好不好就是我們會從風險管理的角度來思考這個問題謝謝謝謝謝謝到位謝謝林委員"},{"start":16179.827,"end":16191.71,"text":"接著請紅夢凱、紅夢凱、紅夢凱、紅委員不在請鄭天才、鄭天才、鄭天才、鄭委員不在請鍾嘉斌、鍾委員質詢。"},{"start":16204.727,"end":16216.337,"text":"主席、在場委員先進、列席政務機關所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請金管會彭主委還有法律處的徐處長以及銀行局的莊局長銀行局莊局長委員好"},{"start":16221.029,"end":16247.418,"text":"主委好,我想在進入今天政題之前呢,我有一個從司法法治委員會帶來的問題你知道洗房法,法治委員會二審,已經委員會審查完略了那其中呢,有一個部分是關於融資性租賃跟虛擬資產的部分是適用洗房法當中的是適用金融機構的規定,對不對?是那是屬於金管會管的嘛是,現在我們把它納入了好,可以,好請問一下,主委你有沒有用過分期付款?"},{"start":16249.219,"end":16276.057,"text":"有用過?沒有沒有?你有沒有用過融資租賃?沒有沒有?但是你知道什麼是分期付款?我介紹很快的介紹給大家有個消費者他想買車但錢不夠車商說你信用很好我幫你辦銀行的貸款那因此呢車商拿了主額的車款之後消費者拿到了車然後呢分期呢把銀行的分期的債務呢就還清了這是一種但另外一種呢融資性租賃呢他怎樣是需要的人他"},{"start":16276.667,"end":16276.787,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16302.796,"end":16314.587,"text":"融資訊的註定是這樣喔?好那你知道目前的融資訊註定的詐騙有一種叫做機車可以借30萬嗎?你聽過一輛機車可以借30萬的嗎?有在媒體上看到這樣的報告你知道怎麼操作嗎?"},{"start":16316.42,"end":16341.409,"text":"請委員說明一下,謝謝這個我花了很多時間跟典當業者、跟業者請教原則上受害者他其實要一筆錢,周轉,可能要30萬他說銀行不會給他,信用不佳但是看報紙、看網路說有人說有機車可以借30萬怎麼借呢?你把你的機車、你的使用權賣給了融資公司融資公司給你相當30萬的錢跟你買了使用權"},{"start":16342.429,"end":16342.569,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16360.27,"end":16360.51,"text":"致詢致詢致詢"},{"start":16388.076,"end":16388.877,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16410.486,"end":16425.947,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":16426.047,"end":16438.271,"text":"我還可以拿到一筆現金我什麼錢都沒有我就可以拿到一輛新車還有他20萬扣掉的手續費給我12萬的現金然後我前六期要按時還我可能還了30萬我的債務本金還了20萬這時候我手頭很緊了"},{"start":16443.08,"end":16464.172,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":16464.472,"end":16490.386,"text":"結果呢一代又過一代越欠越多錢他不是沒有還錢喔等到他一旦還不起事情就裂了主委知道這個融資性借貸的融資性租賃的一個問題了吧那融資性租賃我們來看一下現在是在洗房法裡面歸你們管嘛你們要不要讓他保持交易記錄"},{"start":16492.026,"end":16518.8,"text":"那要會同法務部做什麼事情呢?做一件事情可不可以往下看可不可以要求他應該要錄音錄影介入風險因為往往這樣的詐騙過程當中很大的問題受害者他不曉得他在辦什麼手續沒有看到合約沒有錄音錄影為他本意的表達所以未來金管會可不可以要求這些融資性租賃業者用洗髮法的授權請他要有錄音錄影可以要求嗎?"},{"start":16519.961,"end":16530.16,"text":"這一點的話我們也注意到國際上面對這種類似行業的規範都是從保護消費者的角度這是屬於消費者保護端的這個內容"},{"start":16532.217,"end":16554.769,"text":"我們因為在洗房法裡面他是主要針對洗錢沒有錯啦照說這些是對於融資性業務的日常監理啦但是因為你們只承認他在金融機構是洗房部你們管平常他是屬於經濟部管的公司對不對你們不是主管機關嗎現在目前現況是如何好 那麼現況呢你們就要加強了第二個我們來看洗房法裡面一個授權"},{"start":16555.589,"end":16581.906,"text":"中央目的主管機關、世界主管機關就是指你們你們可能是洗房法的這個融資性租賃的中央目的主管機關指定什麼項目指定我要求你定型化契約往下看因為這些內容會出狀況都是因為契約的內容五花八門、話術技巧如果說真的有人需要沒有錢需要去拿一筆錢拿機車去或者是說他需要用借錢來買車那麼定型化契約內容"},{"start":16582.586,"end":16605.707,"text":"要求業者把這些他所簽署的內容具體的表達出來,之後的爭議他有辦法處理。主委你願意往這個方向去折騰你們銀行局做嗎?我想任何有助於市場維持的我們都願意研究。剛才講定型化契約應該是我們消費者保護法裡面他有一些,一些若納若會有強制的規定。目前榮志信主任他沒有給你定型化契約,沒有一定的格式。"},{"start":16606.067,"end":16629.282,"text":"所以每個業務員他跟你招攬的時候他都是靠他一張嘴拿出很多複雜的文件讓你簽簽完了你發現自己被辦了信那你還不曉得報告委員這部分我想我們既然現在是洗房的這個主政單位那我想這部分相關我們來研究責務龐大好謝謝因為主委主席請我們吃了雞排很快的把今天的主題說了一下很快的30秒就好了來"},{"start":16630.963,"end":16631.143,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16650.471,"end":16666.051,"text":"我這個問題應該回答過很多次了所以我就往下看了好那所以目前如果把投資總額從25%降到25%那表示什麼表示有6.4%的資金要回流台灣6.4%很大我們目前的股市能不能消耗得了往下看"},{"start":16667.212,"end":16683.359,"text":"進來之後會有什麼影響?主委很快的回答6.4兆回來之後台灣會有什麼影響?我想是籌碼假設從個簡單的工序來看那確實會9兆那個我們主席說是9兆不是6.4兆那9兆就更多了是的好那往下看有三個影響我直接說結論第一"},{"start":16685.06,"end":16699.141,"text":"保護跟股東權益授權公司將國外獲利穩定的投資拿回來國內他不投入高風險的股市就投入再次獲利不足這個時候呢他的股票就會受到影響然後他的獲利如果不穩定保護的權益會受到影響第二"},{"start":16700.339,"end":16727.598,"text":"房市會上漲那麼多資金回來投資標的除了股債之外就是房地產房地產價格在上漲影響到其他的人民生活再往下看最後大量的資金回來會影響到匯率匯率如果新台幣他把美金拋掉回來買新台幣持有台灣的匯率會上升本來匯率是央行在主控那如果這樣子久照的外國的相當於久照新台幣的美金換成新台幣您覺得我們的匯率會提高多少"},{"start":16729.272,"end":16751.025,"text":"這剛剛有很多委員也關注過這個問題啊這個很難預估不過一定會產生影響好很好所以結論還是一句話請儘管持續跟其他機關協調釋出可供民間投資報酬合理的公共建設案源尤其是REIT一定要加強的讓REIT可以來協助參與民間的公共民間的投資可以進入到公建的部分好不好好謝謝主委謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":16755.046,"end":16755.186,"text":"三萬點再來"},{"start":16760.953,"end":16785.873,"text":"接著請楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊委員不在請鄭正前委員、鄭正前、鄭正前、鄭委員不在請陳亭飛、陳亭飛、陳亭飛、陳委員不在請何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何委員不在請吳春成委員"},{"start":16799.187,"end":16799.467,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16817.672,"end":16831.784,"text":"我今天要跟兩位首長討論的是臺灣的資產釋放剛才有提到的很多的資金那如何去管理這些資金那以及壯世代應該從壯世代這個龐大的資金如何去處理來就教兩位"},{"start":16839.226,"end":16844.628,"text":"根據這個主計處的這些調查我們2024年的超額儲蓄率就又超過達到了3.8兆連續5年都超過了3兆"},{"start":16853.598,"end":16882.262,"text":"那我不是很清楚啦現在這樣累積下來我們的儲蓄有多少兆那我看到今天的報告裡面也提到我們的壽險累積到今年第一季已經達到了32兆所以看起來民間的百萬級金融金融錢非常的多但是呢這一個"},{"start":16884.292,"end":16908.364,"text":"這麼龐大的儲蓄力但是我們的投資不足會不會造成實水經濟那整個的這個內需市場我們的公共投資不足很多的錢其實都在壯世代的手上壯世代沒有壯世代的產業大家省吃減用錢都藏起來沒有在流通那這個會不會造成年輕人"},{"start":16909.525,"end":16909.785,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":16925.003,"end":16948.964,"text":"市報委員,就是有關您提到壯士在金融,今晚會過去非常重視,我們內部也開過好多次會。剛剛那個委員您提到的,就是有關這個,我們今天討論的保險資金,這是我們所有民眾已經運用完畢的資金,交到保險公司手上,只是過去大部分都放在海外去投資。我們是希望說,能夠加強對台灣的投資,就是,"},{"start":16950.271,"end":16977.168,"text":"這一錢跟我們閒置的壯世代資金有一點點差異它是我們已經是運用的資金只是交到這個機構投資人在保險公司手上那我們是希望它未來能夠有更多國內的投資機會然後讓我們的錢能夠支持國家的建設好 謝謝 謝謝主委然後又從這個中央銀行的這一張表裡面看出來我們從2010年累計到今年的第一季"},{"start":16978.703,"end":17004.102,"text":"禁流出的金額拉到了25兆就是剛才主委所說的因為國內缺乏投資的標的所以錢往外流那這個過去我們一直在談亞太金融中心一個我們台灣的發展的金融這個現在不曉得我們現在新的那個現在有什麼新的做法"},{"start":17004.722,"end":17028.638,"text":"是,跟委員報告一下,很多人提到過去我們的,提過很多台灣要成為各種中心都沒有成功。不過,我舉個簡單的例子,就是我們談AI其實在將近30年前就在談,一直都在談,為什麼最近有爆發,是的成長,因為很多的時機條件,觀念會先行,環境會跟上。就跟委員你提那個壯世代,可能20年前提大家沒有感覺。"},{"start":17029.398,"end":17049.617,"text":"你一直提,提到最後的時候大家就很有感。我想最近台灣所面臨到的情況,比如說以台灣的股市來看,過去台灣的股市在全世界其實沒有那麼重要性,現在已經大概是全世界第9名的股市了。這個在台灣以這樣的規模來講是非常非常不容易,而且讓全世界都看到台灣資產管理的這樣的一個機會。我想是因為時機的關係。"},{"start":17051.278,"end":17077.271,"text":"所以看起來我們有很多的理想都沒辦法實現這個剛才在教文委員會也是在談一個台灣以前電影是聯合國列為第三名的這個產品的優質度跟產出那現在已經排到後面最近辦一個金曲獎都被罵死就是從一個文化大國變成一個文化小國那包括很多的偉大的"},{"start":17078.631,"end":17102.967,"text":"從來大陸現在都往下走不過我們現在務實一點我覺得會整體走向這個的方向是我覺得我們一直在內亂、內鬥很多東西就不務實都在談一些空的、空洞的東西希望大家趕快趕上然後都從壯士帶這裡就是上次我也提到這一個我們企業壯士帶擁有很多的財富那特別是上面這兩個"},{"start":17104.688,"end":17129.803,"text":"經濟部要發展這個長壽經濟嘛大健康產業嘛那這個需要很多的建設這個就是資金要趕快的投入這個未來整個高零是有倒過來金字塔這樣的一個社會要投入公共設施很多不能靠政府嘛那些資金要趕快建立的怎麼去導引嘛那另外金管會財政部這裡怎麼把這麼龐大的被限制的資金能夠活化那這一個齁"},{"start":17131.043,"end":17153.084,"text":"這個我就是要,因為但是呢,現在好像談了很多,一直在談,但是都慢吞吞的,明年就已經進入超高齡社會了,然後這個整個的時間會,我一直提到包括這一些的步驟,其實都太緩慢,因為我們一直把這個高齡化,因為這個是一個社會形態的大翻轉,"},{"start":17154.265,"end":17154.385,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17178.627,"end":17192.802,"text":"那包括財政部部長這裡有很多的獎勵這個很多需要要有誘因所以最後最後因為時間一直在催是不是可以因為我們這會期快要結束是不是可以在兩個星期之內可以拜託金管會"},{"start":17193.763,"end":17219.449,"text":"可以針對我知道你們列出了很多的金融商品的服務但是我不知道那個時程表你們現在推動的計畫是不是可以再可以回覆讓我準備下一步的會期當中要怎麼推動那另外財政部是不是也可以針對這一些個人資金的引導包括金管會配合的這些措施能夠提供誘因能夠給我一些方向"},{"start":17220.009,"end":17237.296,"text":"事報委員有關金管會部分2025年前提供我們具體時程表沒有問題好謝謝謝謝主委那部長我想財政部部分我們看金管會提出來相關金融商品以後我們再來研議這個相關的做法以及現有的做法我們也可以提供是好的好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝部長好謝謝"},{"start":17248.851,"end":17274.123,"text":"接著請林俊憲林俊憲林委員林俊憲林委員不在經濟政經發言委員均已詢答完畢現在進行保險法第146條之四條文修正草案處理預計宣讀時間一分鐘宣讀完畢後協商請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":17280.549,"end":17292.754,"text":"宣讀委員羅明才等17人提案保險法第146條之四條文修正草案經對照現行條文除第二項序文中45%文字修正為25%其餘未修正同現行條文宣讀完畢好,現在協商"},{"start":17323.53,"end":17328.681,"text":"好,那如果現場沒有相關的官員,如果有事可以先離開。"},{"start":17388.268,"end":17389.189,"text":"﹗"},{"start":17466.783,"end":17467.261,"text":"議員。"},{"start":17600.182,"end":17602.707,"text":"好,那我們現在開始協商齁"},{"start":17603.973,"end":17631.029,"text":"那因為這個議題提出獲得社會各界的迴響從一開始的覺得不可行到現在包括主管機關包括各個部會當然覺得如果是投資台灣、耕留台灣、壯大台灣變成是一個好的方向那這因為時間上跟流程怎麼影響"},{"start":17632.57,"end":17651.123,"text":"電動不要那麼大可以慢慢慢慢的往這個方向接軌我們就是再給予多一點的時間也請各部會也想想看有什麼是可以提出的投報率是可以高於3.8甚至再高一點點"},{"start":17653.324,"end":17669.14,"text":"滿足保險業者他們現階段的這個需求所以最後我們也請主委來就今天保險法146條之四的一個方向來說明一下是那個剛剛趙委員提到就是"},{"start":17669.901,"end":17683.348,"text":"保險業是社會資金然後要支持國內建設也是非常大家的共識但是因為過去在整個保險業調整利差的過程當中那個盤根錯節的問題很複雜"},{"start":17685.529,"end":17703.621,"text":"我想現階段在還沒有完成整個大家共識之前我是建議說還是維持原來的那我們繼續的朝向比如說未來增強案源的提供然後呢我們金管會員努力讓保險的錢盡量能夠投資台灣那也謝謝昭偉能夠體諒到整個保險業現在的現況謝謝"},{"start":17710.71,"end":17731.461,"text":"謝謝主委那因為未來的亞太資產管理中心以及臺灣有很多要投資的公建方面藉由今天的這個時點往前跨出去讓各部會也趕快動起來包括今天講的交通部、水利署還有其他的"},{"start":17734.203,"end":17755.603,"text":"國發會很多單位你們就是想想看有什麼可以值得長遠投資因為現在做大概好是好到未來10年20、30年以後住在台灣的所有的年輕人我們也是期許就是資金一步一步回來了以後可以讓"},{"start":17758.005,"end":17775.23,"text":"國內的平均薪資可以一步一步的往上提升新加坡平均就10萬杜拜的薪水大概10萬因為你錢多的時候留在台灣大家一定這個薪資又會漲這個道理很簡單因為"},{"start":17777.29,"end":17778.751,"text":"我再宣布一下"},{"start":17820.443,"end":17840.849,"text":"本次會議做如下決議一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從席鎖定三、委員楊瓊英所提書面質詢"},{"start":17850.441,"end":17866.792,"text":"列入記錄、刊登公報．並請相關部會以書面答覆是保險法第146條之四條文修正草案一案則其繼續審查"},{"start":17871.104,"end":17882.435,"text":"本次會議議程已進行完畢,堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢,一併列入記錄、刊登公報,並請議事人員協助處理。散會"}]}},{"id":"154530","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154530","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd5495e1cc8c9b8632cb3f5941fe1686257e5fc91d506e06f6e69a6ec2f04dbdd85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"13:09:56 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13:17:32","影片長度":"00:07:36","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T13:09:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T13:17:32+08:00","duration":456,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1115,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（13時9分）有請金管會彭主委、財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請彭主委、莊部長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：主委好、部長好。我今天要跟兩位首長討論的是臺灣的資產釋放，剛才提到有很多的資金，如何去管理這些資金、以及應該從壯世代著手，本席就這個龐大資金如何去處理來就教兩位。","根據主計總處的調查，我們2024年的超額儲蓄達到了3.8兆，連續5年都超過了3兆，我不是很清楚，現在這樣累積下來，我們的儲蓄有多少兆？這個等一下談。我看到今天的報告裡面也提到我們的壽險累積到今年第一季已經達到了32兆，所以看起來民間「臺灣錢淹腳目」，錢非常的多，這麼龐大的儲蓄率，但是我們的投資不足，會不會造成死水經濟？整個的內需市場、我們的公共投資不足，很多的錢其實都在壯世代的手上，壯世代沒有壯世代的產業，大家省吃儉用，錢都藏起來，沒有在流通，這個會不會造成年輕人沒辦法創業、年輕人低薪的一個主要原因？這個也是可能造成少子化很重要的整個環境生態，請教主委的看法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，有關您提到的壯世代金融，金管會過去非常重視，我們內部也開過好多次會，剛剛委員您提到的這個，我們今天討論的保險資金是我們所有民眾已經運用完畢的資金交到保險公司手上，只是過去大部分都放在海外去投資，我們是希望能夠加強對臺灣的投資，就是這些錢跟我們閒置的壯世代資金有一點點差異，它是我們已經運用的資金，只是交到這個機構投資人，也就是保險公司手上，我們是希望它未來能夠有更多國內的投資機會，然後讓我們的錢能夠支持國家的建設。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝主委。然後從中央銀行的這一張表裡面看出來，我們從2010年累積到今年的第一季，淨流出的金額達到了25兆，就是剛才主委所說的，因為國內缺乏投資標的，所以錢會往外流，過去以來我們一直在談亞太金融中心，我們臺灣發展的金融不曉得現在新的內閣有什麼新的作法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告一下，很多人提到過去我們提過很多臺灣要成為各種中心都沒有成功，不過我舉個簡單的例子，就是我們談AI，其實在將近30年前就在談、一直都在談，為什麼最近有爆發式的成長？因為很多的時機條件，觀念會先行、環境會跟上，就跟委員您提的壯世代，可能20年前提大家沒有感覺，你一直提、提到最後的時候大家就很有感。我想最近臺灣所面臨到的情況，比如以臺灣的股市來看，過去臺灣的股市在全世界其實沒有那麼具重要性，現在大概已經是全世界第九名的股市了，這個在臺灣以這樣的規模來講是非常非常不容易，而且讓全世界都看到臺灣資產管理的這樣一個機會，我想是因為時機的關係。"],["吳委員春城：對，所以看起來我們有很多的理想都沒辦法實現，我剛才在教文委員會也是在談一個狀況，臺灣電影以前是被聯合國列為第三名產品的優質度跟產出，現在已經排到後面，最近辦一個金曲獎都被罵死，就是從一個文化大國變成一個文化小國，包括很多偉大的雄才大略現在都往下走。不過我們現在務實一點，我覺得整體走向的方向是我們一直在內亂、內鬥，很多東西就不務實，都在談一些空洞的東西，希望大家趕快趕上。","好，從壯世代這裡，上次我也提到這一個，其實壯世代擁有很多財富，特別是上面這兩個，經濟部要發展長壽經濟、大健康產業，這個需要很多的建設，資金要趕快的投入，未來整個高齡，金字塔是倒過來的，這樣的一個社會要投入的公共設施很多，不能靠政府，資金要趕快建立、要怎麼去導引。另外金管會、財政部要怎麼把這麼龐大、被閒置的資金能夠活化，這一個我就是要……因為現在好像談了很多，一直在談但是都慢吞吞的，明年就已經要進入超高齡社會了，然後整個時間會……我一直提到包括這一些步驟其實都太緩慢，因為高齡化是一個社會形態的大翻轉，如果當做一般例行業務，過去屬於高齡的都是叫邊陲業務，包括金融機構，每一個單位都是邊陲業務：現在可能要把它拿到核心來檢視，因為如果你還是照原來的單位、原來的科室去處理，它還是用那個格局去處理，一定處理不好事情的。包括財政部，部長，這裡有很多的獎勵，很多都需要要有誘因。","所以最後……因為時間一直在催。因為這會期就快要結束，是不是可以在兩個星期之內拜託金管會可以針對……我知道你們列出了很多金融商品的服務，但是我不知道那個時程表，你們現在推動的計畫是不是可以回復我，讓我準備下會期下一步要怎麼推動。另外財政部是不是也可以針對這一些個人資金的引導，包括金管會配合的這些措施能夠提供誘因，能夠給我一些方向。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，報告委員，有關金管會部分，提供我們2025年前的具體時程表沒有問題。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝主委。那部長呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想財政部部分，我們看金管會提出相關金融商品以後再來研議相關的作法，以及現有的作法我們也可以提供。"],["吳委員春城：好的，謝謝主委、謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接著請林俊憲委員，林俊憲、林俊憲，林委員不在。","今天登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，現在進行保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案處理，預計宣讀時間1分鐘，宣讀完畢後協商。請議事人員宣讀。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大\n參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員\n會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢；二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.418468750000001,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.34659375,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.658468750000001,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.51471875,"end":9.919718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.184718750000002,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.79221875,"end":16.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.53471875,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.918468750000002,"end":18.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.64409375,"end":19.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.41596875,"end":21.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.672843750000002,"end":41.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.985968750000005,"end":58.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.768468750000004,"end":65.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.80971875,"end":66.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.37909375000001,"end":80.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.69346875000001,"end":87.86534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.18596875,"end":88.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.94096875000001,"end":93.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.12596875000001,"end":94.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.00346875000001,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.29409375,"end":110.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.79846875000001,"end":112.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.50284375000001,"end":114.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.37596875000001,"end":115.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start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達到了3.8兆連續5年都超過了3兆"},{"start":59.844,"end":82.858,"text":"那我不是很清楚啦現在這樣累積下來我們的儲蓄有多少兆那我看到今天的報告裡面也提到我們的壽險累積到今年第一季已經達到了32兆所以看起來民間的百萬級錢非常的多但是呢這一個"},{"start":90.54,"end":114.593,"text":"這麼龐大的儲蓄益利但是我們的投資不足會不會造成食水經濟那整個的這個內需市場我們的公共投資不足花很多的錢其實都在壯世代的手上那壯世代沒有壯世代的產業大家省吃減用錢都藏起來沒有在流通那這個會不會造成年輕人"},{"start":115.754,"end":116.014,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":131.249,"end":155.205,"text":"司法委員就是有關您提到壯士在金融金管會過去非常重視我們內部也開過好多次會剛剛那個委員您提到的就是有關這個我們今天討論的保險資金這是我們所有民眾已經運用完畢的資金交到保險公司手上只是過去大部分都放在海外去投資我們是希望說能夠加強對台灣的投資就是"},{"start":156.52,"end":183.397,"text":"這一錢跟我們閒置的壯世代資金有一點點差異它是我們已經是運用的資金只是交到這個機構投資人士保險公司手上那我們是希望它未來能夠有更多國內的投資機會然後讓我們的錢能夠支持國家的建設好 謝謝 謝謝主委然後又從這個中央銀行的這一張表裡面看出來我們從2010年累計到今年的第一季"},{"start":184.949,"end":210.328,"text":"禁流出的金額拉到了25兆就是剛才主委所說的因為國內缺乏投資的標的所以錢往外流那這個過去我們一直在談亞太金融中心一個我們台灣的發展的金融這個現在不曉得我們現在新的那個現在有什麼新的做法"},{"start":210.948,"end":234.866,"text":"是,跟委員報告一下,很多人提到過去我們的,提過很多台灣要成為各種中心都沒有成功。不過,我舉個簡單的例子,就是我們談AI其實在將近30年前就在談,一直都在談,為什麼最近有爆發,是的成長,因為很多的時機條件,觀念會先行,環境會跟上。就跟委員你提那個壯世代,可能20年前提大家沒有感覺。"},{"start":235.626,"end":255.845,"text":"你一直提,提到最後的時候大家就很有感。我想最近台灣所面臨到的情況,比如說以台灣的股市來看,過去台灣的股市在全世界其實沒有那麼重要性,現在已經大概是全世界第9名的股市了。這個在台灣以這樣的規模來講是非常非常不容易,而且讓全世界都看到台灣資產管理的這樣的一個機會,我想是因為時機的關係。"},{"start":257.526,"end":283.508,"text":"所以看起來我們有很多的理想都沒辦法實現這個剛才在教文委員會也是在談一個台灣以前電影是聯合國列為第三名的這個產品的優質度跟產出那現在已經排到後面最近辦了一個金曲獎就被罵死就是從一個文化大國變成一個文化小國那包括很多的偉大的"},{"start":284.869,"end":309.202,"text":"從來大陸現在都往下走不過我們現在務實一點我覺得會整體走向這個的方向是我覺得我們一直在內亂、內鬥很多東西就不務實都在談一些空的、空洞的東西希望大家趕快趕上然後都從壯士帶這裡就是上次我也提到這一個我們企業壯士帶擁有很多的財富那特別是上面這兩個"},{"start":310.923,"end":336.034,"text":"經濟部要發展這個長壽經濟嘛大健康產業嘛那這個需要很多的建設這個就是資金要趕快的投入這個未來整個高零是有倒過來金字塔這樣的一個社會要投入公共設施很多不能靠政府嘛那些資金要趕快建立的怎麼去導引嘛那另外金管會財政部這裡怎麼把這麼龐大的被限制的資金能夠活化那這一個齁"},{"start":337.274,"end":359.312,"text":"這個我就是要,因為但是呢,現在好像談了很多,一直在談,但是都慢吞吞的,明年就已經進入超高齡社會了,然後這個整個的時間會,我一直提到包括這一些的步驟,其實都太緩慢,因為我們一直把這個高齡化,因為這個是一個社會形態的大翻轉,"},{"start":360.213,"end":384.753,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":384.853,"end":399.051,"text":"那包括財政部部長這裡有很多的獎勵這個很多需要要有誘因所以最後最後因為時間一直在催是不是可以因為我們這會期快要結束是不是可以在兩個星期之內可以拜託金管會"},{"start":399.992,"end":425.698,"text":"可以針對我知道你們列出了很多的金融商品的服務但是我不知道那個時程表你們現在推動的計畫是不是可以再可以回覆讓我準備下一步的會期當中要怎麼推動那另外財政部是不是也可以針對這一些個人資金的引導包括金管會配合的這些措施能夠提供誘因能夠給我一些方向"},{"start":426.238,"end":443.856,"text":"事報委員,有關金管會部分,2025年前提供我們具體時程表,沒有問題。好,謝謝,謝謝主委。那部長?我想財政部部分,我們看金管會提出來相關金融商品以後,我們再來研議這個相關的做法,以及現有的做法我們也可以提供,是。好的,好,好,謝謝,謝謝主委,謝謝部長。好,謝謝。"},{"start":455.1,"end":456.668,"text":"接著請林俊憲委員"}]}},{"id":"154528","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154528","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd33040dc279474525cb3f5941fe1686257e5fc91d506e06f606a9cdfe7fa3d36a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"13:00:02 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13:09:24","影片長度":"00:09:22","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T13:00:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T13:09:24+08:00","duration":562,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1067,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（13時）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請金管會彭主委、法律處徐處長以及銀行局莊局長。"],["主席：請彭主委、徐處長、莊局長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好。在進入今天正題之前，我有一個從司法及法制委員會帶來的問題，你知道洗防法在司法及法制委員會已經審查完竣，其中有一個部分是關於融資性租賃跟虛擬資產部分，在洗防法當中是適用金融機構的規定，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是屬於金管會管的嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，現在我們把它納入了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，好。請問一下主委有沒有用過分期付款？有用過？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有？你有沒有用過融資租賃？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，但是你知道什麼是分期付款，我很快的介紹給大家。有個消費者他想買車，但錢不夠，車商說：你信用很好，我幫你辦銀行的貸款。因此車商拿了足額的車款之後，消費者拿到了車，然後分期把銀行的債務就還清了，這是一種；但另外一種融資性租賃是怎樣？是需要的人他沒有足夠的錢買車，他也沒辦法直接跟銀行貸，所以跑出一個融資性租賃的業者，他用他來跟銀行取得資金之後交付車款，他取得車款之後把車子再出租給承租人，承租人每個月交給他的租金遠大於他要付的本息，所以他等於是拿出租人的租金去支付這個本息，期滿之後承租人可以把這個車子買過去，是不是這樣子？"],["彭主任委員金隆：嗯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：融資性租賃是這樣。好，那你知道目前的融資性租賃的詐騙有一種叫做機車可以借30萬嗎？你聽過1輛機車可以借30萬的嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有在媒體上看到這樣的報導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知道怎麼操作嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：請委員說明一下，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這個我花了很多的時間跟典當業者及業者請教，原則上受害者他其實要一筆錢周轉，可能要30萬，銀行不會給，因為他信用不佳，但是他看報紙、看網路有人說有機車可以借30萬，怎麼借呢？你把你的機車、你的使用權賣給了融資公司，融資公司給你相當30萬的錢跟你買了使用權，但是實際上七扣八扣手續費之後，你大概只能拿到七成21萬，然後他把你名下的車回租給你，因為他有使用權，你每個月要付租金給他，然後他拿你付的租金來支付給銀行。咦，怎麼要給銀行？因為在你辦這個融資租賃租你名下的機車的時候，他把你的證件用他的名義設法跟銀行代受害人申請信用貸款。很奇怪！受害人自己去辦辦不出來，但融資公司拿他的證件就辦了一個以他名義的信用貸款，辦了30萬、扣了9萬，21萬交給他，然後他每個月付的租金由融資公司替他付他信貸的錢，一旦他付不起租金，車子還是他的沒有關係，反正是破機車，但是業者就把他放管、不管了，然後銀行就來跟誰追債？跟受害者追債！有沒有聽過這樣的操作手法？第一次聽到？"],["彭主任委員金隆：第一次聽到這麼完整的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，再跟你講一個，越貸越多錢！請往下看，這是說「汽車超額貸、永遠還不完、還越欠越多」。基本上我一個年輕人如果要買新車100萬，銀行大概不會貸給我，而我居然可以透過融資公司用100萬的車幫我貸到120萬，我還會拿到一筆現金，我什麼錢都沒有就可以拿到1輛新車，還有20萬扣掉手續費後他給我12萬的現金，然後我前六期要按時還，我可能還了30萬，我的債務還了本金20萬，這時候我的手頭很緊了，他說：你還有其他債務嗎？沒關係，我幫你介紹第二胎。你沒錢花用或者還不出來時，我再找B公司，B公司把這輛車過給他做二胎，然後他幫你貸了150萬，其中100萬先把原來的餘額100萬的債務還掉，你就可以拿到30萬的七成35萬，結果一貸又過一貸，越欠越多錢！他不是沒有還錢喔，等到他一旦還不起，事情就爆發了！主委知道這個融資性租賃的問題了吧？","我們來看一下融資性租賃，現在在洗防法裡面歸你們管嘛，你們要不要要求他保持交易紀錄？那要會同法務部做什麼事情呢？做一件事情，往下看，可不可以要求他揭露風險時應該要錄音錄影？因為往往在這樣的詐騙過程當中，很大的問題是受害者不曉得他在辦什麼手續，沒有看到合約、沒有錄音錄影為他本意的表達，所以未來金管會可不可以要求這些融資性租賃業者，用洗防法的授權請他要有錄音錄影，可以要求嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這一點我們也注意到國際上對這種類似行業的規範都是從保護消費者的角度，這是屬於消費者保護端的內容，因為在洗防法裡面主要針對洗錢……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，照說這些是對融資性業務的日常監理。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是因為你們只承認它在金融機構是洗防部分歸你們管，平常它是屬於經濟部管的公司，對不對？他們不是主管機關嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：目前現況是如此。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那麼現況你們就要加強。第二個，我們來看洗防法裡面的授權，中央目的事業主管機關就是指你們，你們是洗防法的融資性租賃的中央目的事業主管機關，指定什麼項目？指定要求你要有定型化契約。再往下看，這些內容會出狀況都是因為契約的內容五花八門、話術技巧，如果真的有人需要卻沒有錢，需要去拿一筆錢，拿機車去或者是他需要借錢來買車，那麼定型化契約內容要求業者把這些他所簽署的內容具體的表達出來，日後的爭議才有辦法處理。主委願意往這個方向去責成你們銀行局做嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想任何有助於市場維持的我們都願意研究，剛剛講定型化契約應該是消費者保護法裡面有一些，如果納入會有強制的規定，這我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前融資性租賃它沒有給你定型化契約、沒有一定的格式，所以每個業務員跟你招攬的時候都是靠他一張嘴，拿出很多複雜的文件要你簽，簽完了你發現自己被辦了信貸還不曉得。"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，這部分我們現在既然是洗防的主政單位，我想相關部分我們來研究，責無旁貸。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，因為主席請我們吃了雞排，我很快的把今天的主題說一下，很快，30秒就好了。這個是今天大家談的，就是有將近七成海外投資，壽險公司為什麼到海外去？是因為國內投資標的不足？是這樣嘛？到海外是不是都是買海外的債券？大概是這樣子吧？我這個問題主委應該回答過很多次了，所以我就往下看。目前如果把投資總額從45%降到25%，那表示什麼？表示有6.4兆的資金要回流臺灣，6.4兆很大，我們目前的股市能不能消化得了？往下看，進來之後會造成什麼影響？請主委很快回答，6.4兆回來之後對臺灣會有什麼影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想是籌碼，假設從一個簡單的供需來看，確實會……"],["主席：9兆。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席說是9兆，不是6.4兆，9兆就更多了！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看，會有三個影響，我直接說結論，第一，保戶及股東權益。壽險公司將國外獲利穩定的投資拿回來國內，它不投入高風險的股市就是投入債市，獲利不足，這個時候它的股票就會受到影響，然後它的獲利如果不穩定，保戶的權益也會受到影響。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二，房市會上漲。那麼多資金回來，投資標的除了股、債之外就是房地產，房地產價格就會再上漲，影響到其他的人民生活。","再往下看，最後大量的資金回來會影響到匯率，如果它把美金拋掉回來買新臺幣持有，臺灣的匯率會上升，本來匯率是央行在主控，如果相當於9兆新臺幣、美金換成新臺幣，您覺得我們的匯率會提高多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛有很多委員也關切過這個問題，這個很難預估，不過一定會產生影響。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好、很好，所以結論還是一句話，請金管會持續跟其他機關協調，釋出可供民間投資、報酬合理的公共建設案源。尤其是REITs，一定要加強，讓REITs可以協助，讓民間的投資可以進入到公建的部分，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接著請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭委員不在。","請陳亭妃，陳亭妃、陳亭妃，陳委員不在。","請何欣純，何欣純、何欣純，何委員不在。","請吳春城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大\n參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員\n會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢；二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.84471875,"end":9.869093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.375343750000003,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.007843750000003,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.85534375,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.11659375,"end":19.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","st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9,"text":"我們來看洗防法裡面有一個授權中央目的主管機關、世界主管機關就是指你們你們可能是洗防法的這個融資性主領的中央目的主管機關指定什麼項目指定我要求你定型化契約往下看因為這些內容會出狀況"},{"start":368.92,"end":392.231,"text":"都是因為契約的內容五花八門、話術技巧如果說真的有人需要沒有錢需要去拿一筆錢拿機車去或者是說他需要用借錢來買車那麼定型化契約內容要求業者把這些他所簽署的內容具體的表達出來日後的爭議他有辦法處理主委你願意往這個方向去折騰你們銀行局做嗎"},{"start":392.771,"end":413.673,"text":"我想任何有助於市場維持的我們都願意研究剛剛講定型化契約應該是我們消費者保護法裡面它有一些若那若會有強制的規定目前融資信註他沒有給你定型化契約沒有一定的格式所以每個業務員他跟你招攬的時候他都是靠他一張嘴拿出很多複雜的文件讓你簽簽完了你發現自己被辦的信單你還不曉得"},{"start":415.914,"end":441.523,"text":"這部分我想我們既然現在是洗房的這個主政單位那我想這部分相關我們來研究責無旁貸好謝謝因為主委主席請我們吃了雞排很快的把今天的主題說了一下很快的30秒就好了來往下這個是今天大家談的就是有將近七成海外投資往下看為什麼如果說為什麼到海外去是因為國內投資標的不足是這樣嗎"},{"start":442.742,"end":465.898,"text":"那到海外是不是都是用買海外的債券?大概是這樣子吧?我這個問題主委應該回答過很多次了,所以我就往下看了。好,那所以目前如果把投資總額從25%降到25%那表示什麼?表示有6.4兆的資金要回流台灣。6.4兆很大,我們目前的股市能不能消耗得了?往下看。"},{"start":467.079,"end":483.259,"text":"進來之後會產生什麼影響?主委很快的回答6.4兆回來之後臺灣會有什麼影響?我想是籌碼假設從一個簡單的供需來看確實會9兆我們主席說是9兆不是6.4兆那9兆就更多了是的好 那往下看有三個影響我直接說結論第一"},{"start":484.921,"end":498.991,"text":"保護跟股東權益授權公司將國外獲利穩定的投資拿回來國內他不投入高風險的股市就投入再次獲利不足這個時候他的股票就會受到影響然後他的獲利如果不穩定保護的權益會受到影響第二"},{"start":500.382,"end":527.441,"text":"黃石會上漲那麼多資金回來投資標的除了股債之外就是房地產房地產就會價格再上漲影響到其他的人民生活再往下看最後大量的資金回來會影響到匯率那匯率呢如果新台幣他把美金拋掉回來買新台幣持有台灣的匯率會上升本來匯率是央行在主控那如果這樣子久照的外國的相當於久照新台幣的美金換成新台幣您覺得我們的匯率會提高多少"},{"start":529.119,"end":550.774,"text":"這剛剛有很多委員也關注過這個問題啊這個很難預估,不過一定會產生影響好,很好,所以結論還是一句話,請儘管持續跟其他機關協調釋出可供民間投資報酬合理的公共建設案源尤其是REIT一定要加強的讓REIT可以來協助參與民間的公共民間的投資可以進入到公建的部分好不好好,謝謝,謝謝委員"},{"start":554.912,"end":555.052,"text":"三問題再來"}]}},{"id":"154526","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154526","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdd6cc545537b77e24cb3f5941fe1686257e5fc91d506e06f64e59da5588efa9b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:50:58 - 12:59:48","影片長度":"00:08:50","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T12:50:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:59:48+08:00","duration":530,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1039,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（12時51分）謝謝主席。主席有請金管會彭主委、保險局施局長、財政部莊部長，還有國庫署的陳署長。"],["主席：請彭主委、施局長、莊部長、陳署長。"],["林委員楚茵：我先從金管會開始好了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：主委，是這樣，我想上個月中國公布了反臺獨的意見法規，我不知道您這裡是不是有瞭解，因為它所謂長臂管轄的部分，大家比較專注的是有關於最高可以判處死刑，但是事實上，它在實施的時候，如果你違反第二條跟第七條是可以併處沒收財產。本席特別瞭解到的是，我們知道我們的金融三業當中，投資中國的部分，當然暴險逐年在下降，但是根據我的統計跟瞭解，目前有五家人壽跟兩家產險分別是國泰人壽、臺灣人壽、新光人壽、凱基人壽、富邦人壽，以及國泰世紀產險跟富邦產險，他們都有轉投資中國的人壽或產險，其比例高達50%，少的也有12%。當中國可以針對它所祭出的臺獨新法規，包括你說什麼獨立宣傳、策劃臺獨、然後加入國際組織等等，我強調加入國際組織，這就違反了他們對於臺獨的界定，這些中國投資都是屬於臺灣企業的資金，如果它要的話，它說了算，可以沒收這些財產，所以我想請問的是，主委，現在面對壽險業投資中國相關的風險評估有沒有調整？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在，我們最近也剛剛收到這樣一個訊息，也正在密集的研討，委員的資訊非常及時，我們現在才剛剛完成一個內部討論，正想要說怎麼樣來因應，我想這件事情我們確實是有這麼多的銀行、保險公司在大陸，還有包括很多我們從業的國人，所以這部分我們也是會密切關注，我們也正在……"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以這個討論完成了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們還在討論中，因為我們……"],["林委員楚茵：要花多少的時間？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我本來……"],["林委員楚茵：是不是可以先回應，因為因應所謂臺獨的新意見，而且還有懲罰在裡面，所以整個風險更要拉高，不只是旅遊警戒變橙色，連投資相關的規定，包括如果未來還有公司要申請到中國來做資金投入的時候，是不是態度會不一樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分，過去我們金管會在主管這些兩岸投資的時候，從來都沒有發生過的事情，這件事情在前一陣子的會議都是由我們副主委參加，所以我們最近剛好這一、兩天就要討論這件事情。我想，剛剛委員您的指示，我現在可能沒辦法馬上告訴你時程，但是我們會密切來注意這件事情。"],["林委員楚茵：好，是不是可以給我一個時間表？至少我們知道你們在討論之外，因為投資這樣的事情跟評估的風險，也必須讓臺灣的壽險業或者是其他的銀行業知道我們現在在做這方面，還是說你需要再跟包括壽險公會、銀行公會做討論再完成也沒有關係。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，當然，這部分牽涉到除了業者以外，還有其他對這個更熟悉的部會，可以給我們更多的指導，所以我們會再來做一個比較詳細的評估，因為這部分如果委員覺得我們要在什麼時候完成，當然這是一個狀況，我們必須要趕快……"],["林委員楚茵：主委，因為我明確地來講，臺獨22條出來之後，羅列臺灣保險業在中國經營的狀況，經營風險是不是拉高了？這個應該答案是肯定的嘛！所以你才會來做相關的指引。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個是新的變數啦！新的經營變數，我想任何一個業者在當地經營都應該要注意，我們身為主管機關，當然也是要非常關注這個議題。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我期望你們能夠在一個月以內先跟相關的單位做徵詢跟諮詢，針對是不是要重新評估及風控的部分有一定的方向出來，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，可以，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：再來我要請的是莊部長。莊部長，我們知道其實公股行庫有這幾家，我就不逐一唸了，公股行庫幾乎都有在中國設立子行，我們當然知道這38個營業據點當時是為了服務臺商，但是現在如果就我前面講的，這個22條出來之後，行員的人身安全我們怎麼保障？有沒有行員現在表示他去那裡可能怕怕的？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，目前來說，當然有一些外派到那邊的行員，他們主要考量就是生活上的一些適應或方便性的問題，倒是我們還沒有跟行庫那邊瞭解已經在當地的行員有沒有表達感覺上有一些不同，或者是不安全……"],["林委員楚茵：有關於行員人身安全的部分，我也希望國庫署跟財政部要重新做一些人身安全的評估，你要知道從7月1號開始，他們甚至於入出境可以檢查你的手機，如果今天手機被發現你有看臉書，搞不好這就是一個不適合的，如果他今天去點選了相關的新聞或者是他本身就是中華民國底下財政部的公股行庫，會不會涉及人身安全？所以相關人身安全的保障跟討論，我希望財政部也能夠做進一步的理解，甚至於能夠有進一步的規劃，好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們來做一些關懷的瞭解。"],["林委員楚茵：最後時間有限，我想把題目全部問完，我要問的是彭主委。主委，我們知道金融三業當中有關於對中暴險的部分，保險壽險業事實上已經大幅下降了73%，因為中國的經濟下行，我認為證券或者是期貨基本上它們根本哀鴻遍野，剛剛稍早之前，我們的羅召委還在慶祝臺股上兩萬三，吃了雞排、吃了珍奶，所以我想證券期貨業投資中國的獲利也不大，大概會有所遲疑，也不會再前進。但是銀行業的部分降幅只有37%，所以金融業對於中國資產，如果它們被迫要表態的時候，那麼該怎麼辦？金管會在這裡，我還是詢問主委，怎麼樣在更多的金融三業當中，能夠對中暴險的規模下降，而且你認為要下降到什麼樣的目標值？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，目前我們的標準是它暴險除以淨值是百分之百，但是目前最高點是77%，現在降到22%是銀行；保險的部分，基本上占它資金可能不到1%；證券大概是占1.68%左右的淨值。過去這麼多年來，其實特別是疫情以後，我們已經大幅的下降在中國大陸的暴險金額，我想這部分金管會不是只有單一地區，我們對所有地區都會嚴密的監控這樣的比率。"],["林委員楚茵：好，主委，因為召委已經站起來了，我主要強調的是銀行如果暴險還有1兆，確實是可以有下降的空間。另外，在俄烏戰爭的時候，我們曾經針對俄烏戰爭，金管會當時是有要求金融機構落實機構投資人盡職治理守則，以及ESG，在這個部分，我們都知道中國既然把我們視為敵對勢力，對我們真的是連漁船都直接拖走的時候，要不要投資這麼多在中國，我也請金管會能夠參照俄烏戰爭當時的一些投資準則來做思考，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們會從風險管理角度來思考這個問題，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接著請洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷，洪委員不在。","請鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財，鄭委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大\n參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員\n會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢；二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.22471875,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.844093750000001,"end":9.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.219093750000003,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.99096875,"end":13.598468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.73346875,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.758468750000002,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.28159375,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.39971875,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.450343750000002,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.53471875,"end":16.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.61909375,"end":16.652843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.652843750000002,"end":41.189093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.52659375,"end":78.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.00596875000001,"end":101.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.71534375,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.07659375,"e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那我先從金管會開始好了主委 是這樣我想上個月中國公布了這個反台獨的異見法規我不知道您這裡是不是有了解因為它的這個所謂長臂管轄的部分大家比較專注在的是有關於最高可以判處死刑但是事實上它在實施的時候如果你違反第二條跟第七條是可以並處沒收財產"},{"start":41.596,"end":65.781,"text":"本席特別了解到的是我們知道我們的金融三頁當中投資中國的部分當然負險逐年在下降但是根據我的統計跟了解目前有五家人壽跟兩家產險分別是國泰人壽、台灣人壽、星光人壽、凱基人壽、富邦人壽以及國泰、世華產險跟富邦產險他們都有轉投資中國的人壽或產險"},{"start":71.482,"end":91.233,"text":"他的比例高則超到達50%少的也有12%當中國可以針對他所祭出的台獨新法規包括你說什麼獨立宣傳什麼策劃什麼台獨啊然後加入國際組織等等我強調加入國際組織喔這就違反了他們對於台獨的界定"},{"start":99.338,"end":117.54,"text":"這些中國投資都是屬於台灣企業的資金如果他要的話他說了算他可以沒收這些財產所以我想請問的是主委現在面對受險業投資中國的相關的風險評估有沒有調整"},{"start":118.643,"end":146.733,"text":"現在就是我們也最近剛剛收到這樣的一個訊息跟也正在密集的研討我們就委員您的資訊非常及時我們現在才剛剛完成一個內部討論我們正想要說怎麼樣來因應我想這件事情確實是我們有這麼多的銀行保險公司在大陸還有包括很多的從業的我們的國人所以這部分我們也是會密切關注我們也正在"},{"start":147.313,"end":175.967,"text":"所以這個討論完成了嗎?要花多少的時間?是不是可以先回應就是因為因應這個所謂台獨的新意見尤其還有懲罰在裡面所以整個風險要更拉高不只是旅遊警戒變成色啦連投資相關的規定包括如果未來還有公司要申請到中國來做資金的投入的時候是不是態度會不一樣?"},{"start":177.556,"end":195.051,"text":"這部分我們也是在過去我們在金管會在主管這些兩岸投資的這個時候從來都沒有發生過的事情那這件事情我們是前陣子的會議都是由我們副主委參加所以我們最近剛好這一兩天就要討論這件事情我想剛剛委員您的指示我們現在"},{"start":196.152,"end":217.644,"text":"我現在可能沒辦法馬上告訴你時程但是我們會密切來注意這件事情好,是不是可以給我一個時間表至少我們知道你們有在討論之外什麼時候,因為投資的這樣的事情跟評估的風險也要必須讓台灣的壽險業或者是其他的銀行業知道說我們現在在做這方面還是說你需要再跟包括壽險公會、銀行公會來做討論再完成也沒有關係是"},{"start":222.288,"end":240.981,"text":"當然這部分牽涉到說業者以外還有我們其他的對這個更熟悉的部會可以給我們更多的指導所以我們會再來做一個比較詳細的評估因為這部分我們如果說委員覺得我們什麼時候完成我們當然這個是一個狀況我們要必須要趕快主委我明確的來講啦這個台獨的22條出來之後這"},{"start":246.084,"end":267.524,"text":"台灣保險業在中國經營的狀況這樣羅列出來,經營的風險是不是拉高了?這個應該答案是肯定的嗎?所以你才會來做這個相關的指引。這個新的變數啦,新的經營變數,我想說任何一個業者在當地經營都應該要注意,我們身為主管機關當然也是要非常關注這個議題。"},{"start":268.425,"end":284.844,"text":"好,我期望你們能在一個月以內先跟相關的單位來做徵詢跟諮詢然後把這個包括是不是要針對重新評估跟封控的部分有一個一定的方向出來好不好是,可以,謝謝好,再來我要請德士莊部長"},{"start":286.141,"end":310.282,"text":"莊部長我們知道其實公股行庫有包括這幾家他們我就不足以念了我們公股行庫幾乎都有在中國設立子行我們當然知道這38個一頁據點當時是為了服務台商但是現在如果就我前面講的這22條出來之後行員的人身安全我們怎麼保障有沒有行員現在表示說我去那裡我可能怕怕的來"},{"start":312.871,"end":330.508,"text":"跟委員報告目前來說當然有一些外派到那邊的航員他們主要考量就是生活上的一些適應或方便性的問題倒是我們還沒有跟航庫那邊了解就是在那麼當地的一些已經在當地的航員有沒有表達一些在"},{"start":334.371,"end":352.385,"text":"有關於行員的人身安全的部分我也希望國庫署這裡跟財政部要重新做一些人身安全的評估你要知道從7月1號開始他們甚至於是入出鏡可以檢查你的手機如果今天你的手機被發現你有看臉書搞不好這就是一個不適合的"},{"start":352.825,"end":372.585,"text":"如果他今天去點選了相關的新聞或者是他本身就是中華民國底下公股財政部的公股行庫會不會涉及人身安全所以相關的人身安全的保障跟討論我希望財政部也能夠做進一步的理解甚至於能夠有進一步的規劃好嗎好我們來做一些關懷的了解"},{"start":375.828,"end":390.284,"text":"好最後時間有限我想把這個題目全部的問完我要問的是彭主委主委我們知道金融三業當中有關於對中破險的部分保險受險業事實上已經大幅下降了73%"},{"start":391.986,"end":417.353,"text":"那麼因為中國的經濟下行我認為證券或者是期貨基本上他們根本哀鴻遍野剛剛稍早之前我們的羅昭偉還在慶祝我們這個台股上兩萬三吃了雞排吃了珍奶所以我想這個證券期貨業投資中國的獲利也不大大概會有所來遲疑也不會再前進但是銀行業的部分降幅只有37%所以金融業對於中國資產"},{"start":420.794,"end":420.934,"text":"委員會主席。"},{"start":437.902,"end":464.887,"text":"下降到什麼樣的一個目標值?是,報告委員目前的我們的標準是它曝險除以淨值是百分之百但是現在最高點是77%現在降到22%是銀行保險的部分基本上佔它資金可能不到1%那證券呢大概是佔1.68%左右的淨值在過去這麼多年來其實特別是疫情以後我們已經大幅的下降在在中國的"},{"start":465.387,"end":489.013,"text":"中華大陸那個曝險金額我想這部分我們金管會在不只是只有單一地區我們對所有地區都會嚴密的監控這樣一個比率因為這個昭偉已經站起來了我只要強調是銀行如果曝險還有一兆確實是可以有下降的空間另外在二屋戰爭的時候我們曾經針對二屋戰爭金管會當時是有要求金融機構落實機構投資人"},{"start":491.053,"end":513.558,"text":"禁責、治理、守則以及ESG在這個部分我們都知道中國既然把我們視為敵對勢力對我們真的是連漁船都直接拖走的時候要不要投資這麼多在中國我也請金管會能夠參照二屋戰爭當時的一些投資準則來做思考好不好?就是我們會從風險管理的角度來思考這個問題謝謝謝謝謝謝各位謝謝林委員"},{"start":523.206,"end":529.543,"text":"接著請洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪委員不在請鄭天才鄭"}]}},{"id":"154524","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154524","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdf548402bdf3126fa27d0a78c1009ae5e7e5fc91d506e06f6f37256b5f03864f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:48:15 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DIVO這個團在Pulska Arena Croatia，在克羅埃西亞這樣一個國家，他們跟文化資產的結合有很好的效果。假設未來這個原住民的國家樂舞團能夠有這樣的規劃，我想這樣一個國家級跟文化資產會讓這個文化資產在活化利用等等的議題上，不僅是跟上國際的趨勢，也是一個非常好的活化利用的可能，所以本席在這邊提供給你做參考。","接下來我們再談文化資產，剛才我一直強調文化資產在保存跟維護方面的重要性，但是在活化跟利用是非常地重要，今天本席要談的是錢跟人，不知道部長對於全國財力分配的比例，財力狀況的等級有沒有瞭解？就是全國的財力，各縣市的財力比例分為5個等級。沒有關係，本席直接跟您做個提醒，這個1到5級的財力，其實有12個縣市是在第5級，第5級的縣市如果沒有中央的挹注，真的很難持續跟做到長遠，所以全國總共有5,300個有形文化資產，從本席開始在做相關的觀察跟研究，到現在已經有五千三百多個有形文化資產，還不包括無形文化資產，那文化資產我們經常在講說不能以投資報酬來談這件事情，但是很多時候大家就是收門票，聊備一格地來湊數，那也很難成為長期的活水。","本席知道在2023年文化部這邊有提出文化資產維護發展計畫第5期，要從2024年到2029年，獲得行政院核定159.44億元，已經是歷年來補助之最，所以這個要如何分配，怎麼樣做到雨露均霑，部長這邊有概念或者是有想法了嗎？"],["李部長遠：那個那麼細，我們是預算編下去，每一年都會按照這個計畫做，我請文資局局長來講得更詳細一點。"],["林委員倩綺：沒有關係，部長，我只是提醒您這個部分，文化資產在這個區塊裡面怎麼分配，我剛才講的概念是說，財力比較差的縣市如何去處理跟分配，還有後續的營運，這個是文資應該要注意到的問題。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["林委員倩綺：第二個部分是人，其實在你們的報告裡面談了好多的細項，本席希望未來能夠針對細項再跟部裡面做個討論。但是我們在這邊談一點，就是3,922元這個最低薪資，剛才也有委員提到，是不是真的能夠拿到這樣子的錢，或者是他們到底都做幾天，這樣子的薪資是不是能夠讓年輕人被吸引來做這樣的工作，這可能是部裡面應該要檢視、討論還有研究的一個問題，好不好？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["林委員倩綺：本席在這邊做一個提醒。","最後，本席這邊談一下，文化資產很忌諱被政治駕馭或意識形態影響，本席本身在文化的領域，我覺得其實滿寬廣的，而且很自由。在文化資產這個部分，我們希望它的本質是能夠不分區域、不拘大小，也不限年代跟不計輕重地朝著保存情感跟共同記憶去保存、連結跟延伸，但是本席真的有感受到最近的政治氛圍，讓本來很寬廣的文化空間感覺都有點受到擠壓跟方向上的推動，所以本席這邊分享過去一個經驗啦！但是在分享這個經驗前，本席先請教一下，您知道這個圖是哪一個地方嗎？如果不知道，臺灣像這樣子的和洋式建築有很多，本席提醒一下，它是基隆的旭丘指揮所。"],["李部長遠：基隆，對。"],["林委員倩綺：旭丘過去在林右昌市長任內獲得了硬體方面很多的補助，但是到了現任，可能因為不同的政黨，相關的補助非常地微弱，所以沒有辦法對外開放，然後就變成所謂的蚊子館。其實這個共業我們應該要共同來面對，所以我們作為文化人，先不要管政治怎麼吵，該是怎樣，本席相信您應該會有很正確的判斷。","接下來再給您看一個地方，你知道這是哪一個地方嗎？這個是在高雄鳳山縣城裡面的見城館，本席想要請教您一下，您對見城館有瞭解嗎？"],["李部長遠：不瞭解。"],["林委員倩綺：好，那如果您看到這個名字，您會問什麼樣子的問題？"],["李部長遠：不知道什麼意思。"],["林委員倩綺：對，不曉得什麼意思嘛！「見到」的「見」，「城鎮」的「城」，然後「館」。其實本席在這個領域裡面浸淫滿久的，所以本席在高雄縣政府文化局的時候，有經歷過鳳山縣新城這樣一個概念，對於在左營大家俗稱的舊城也非常地熟悉。","所謂的鳳山縣舊城是在左營，後來本席在2016年看到見城館，因為本席以前經常會帶學生去戶外教學，然後後來它變見城館，雖然樂見鳳山縣城能夠被看見，可是對見城館這個概念也是很好奇，結果後來才發現詮釋上是因為國民黨時期鳳山縣城不見了，然後民進黨時期讓它被看到了，原來是這樣見城，所以這個概念也是很有趣的一個探討，是不是部長您回去可以想一想這個見城？我在想它是因為當時有一個計畫叫做見城計畫，見到的城，我本來以為是「建立」的「建」，因為有這樣一個計畫，結果它後來叫做見城館，所以本席在這邊要講的是，本席非常同意您剛才講的，所有發生的事都是歷史的過程，這一頁看完了，就翻到下一頁吧！"],["李部長遠：是。"],["林委員倩綺：我們不要一直留在那邊，我們看看這一頁，然後再往前走，你認同的上一頁或你不認同的上一頁，給予每個人一個空間，自己去往下走，好不好？"],["李部長遠：我們得把上一頁解決之後，才到下一頁，謝謝你的指教。"],["林委員倩綺：對，看看您怎麼去看待它。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["林委員倩綺：本席很喜歡過去在高雄縣跟的一個首長，叫做楊秋興縣長，他經常跟本席講……"],["李部長遠：是，我認識。"],["林委員倩綺：教育跟文化是人類思想的淨地，那我們作為一個文化人，請我們共同好好地守護人類思想的淨地。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["林委員倩綺：以上，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝指教。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員，部長請回。","接下來請蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有林楚茵委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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"text":"本席這邊有很逐帆不及備載的這樣一個抱怨受到的抱怨收到民眾的這個抱怨所以我想會後這個部分是不是請你書面的詳細的解釋那本席在這邊簡單講幾點那是不是請你就為什麼會解約"},{"start":53.439,"end":74.627,"text":"然後究竟是為什麼你們在原標案的數量不明確規範不明確而導致一些爭議那你們的自我檢討是什麼好然後另外第二點就是是不是會再重新發包修復還是會再延宕兩年好那這個部分請你待會用很簡單的很簡短的30秒鐘給本席做一個回應"},{"start":75.307,"end":79.852,"text":"臺灣美術館副館長任內典藏庫房工程文建會二處處長本席對您的認識應該是在文建會二處但是本席對您不太熟悉所以這個部分我想"},{"start":92.907,"end":93.327,"text":"中山堂修復工程"},{"start":116.716,"end":126.376,"text":"本席在會後給你相關的書面那你就書面的部分做一個回覆那但是為什麼這個龍山市會解約然後又會解約收場"},{"start":127.79,"end":127.97,"text":"一般來講這個學校單位"},{"start":150.509,"end":150.589,"text":"副副長"},{"start":178.275,"end":193.631,"text":"昨天有聽到委員提到表演藝術本席從事公共事務常常都忘記本席自己的專業本席是在表演藝術的專業所以昨天非常感謝您也承諾在有關於原住民族的國家表演藝術樂舞團"},{"start":195.333,"end":195.974,"text":"建議您可以仿照英國的Tony獎"},{"start":223.235,"end":250.055,"text":"本席其實在英國的西區至少40幾個劇院已經去過20幾個那看到的劇當然也非常的多所以在這邊給您提供一些那個想法跟意見今天我們談的是文資 文化資產那事實上表演藝術跟文化資產的這個結合也是一個世界的趨勢那我們看以下的這個PPT那這個是Illdiva對不起Illdivo這樣一個團在這個La Pushka Arena"},{"start":251.315,"end":276.026,"text":"在克萊西亞這樣一個國家那他們跟文化資產的一個結合是有很好的一個效果那這個假設未來的這個國家樂舞團原住民的國家樂舞團能夠有這樣一個規劃那我想這樣一個國家級跟文化資產會讓這個文化資產在活化利用等等的議題上不僅是跟上國家國際的趨勢那也是一個非常好的一個活化利用的"},{"start":278.107,"end":278.828,"text":"本席要談的是錢跟人不知道部長對於全國財力的分配"},{"start":300.731,"end":308.956,"text":"的這個比例財力狀況的等級有沒有了解就全國的財力各縣市的這個財力比例分為五個等級"},{"start":311.206,"end":330.659,"text":"如果這個部分本席直接跟您做個提醒這個1到5級的財力其實有12個縣市是在第5級那這個第5級的這個縣市其實如果沒有中央的挹注真的很難持續跟做到長遠所以全國總共有5300個有形文化資產"},{"start":332.3,"end":356.792,"text":"從本席開始在做相關的觀察跟研究到現在已經有5300多個有形文化資產還不包括無形文化資產那文化資產呢我們經常來講說不能以投資報酬來談這件事情但是很多時候大家就是收盲票撩背一格的來湊數那也很難成為長期的活水那本席知道在2023年文化部這邊有提出文化資產維護發展計畫的第5期要從2024年到2029年"},{"start":360.954,"end":361.795,"text":"那部長這邊有概念或者是有想法了嗎?"},{"start":377.532,"end":378.273,"text":"文資應該要注意到的這個問題"},{"start":403.609,"end":405.671,"text":"人．在報告裏談了好多的細項本席未來希望能夠針對這個細項在跟部裏面討論但是其中我們這邊談一點就是3922元這個最低薪資剛才有委員這邊提到對於這個薪資是不是"},{"start":422.248,"end":423.55,"text":"本席在這邊做一個提醒"},{"start":442.35,"end":456.051,"text":"最後本席這邊談一下這個文化資產很忌會被政治駕馭或意識形態影響本席其實在這裡面本身在文化的領域我覺得其實蠻寬廣的而且很自由"},{"start":458.274,"end":472.642,"text":"在文化資產的這個部分它的本質就是希望能夠不分區域不拘大小也不限年代跟不計輕重的朝著保存情感跟共同記憶去保存連結跟延伸"},{"start":474.362,"end":495.327,"text":"但是本席真的有感受到最近的政治氛圍讓本來很寬廣的一個文化空間感覺有點受到擠壓跟方向上的一個推動所以本席這邊分享過去一個經驗但是在分享這個經驗前本席先請教一下您知道這個圖是哪一個地方嗎?"},{"start":499.187,"end":525.287,"text":"如果不知道可能像台灣像這樣子的和洋式的建築有很多那本席這邊提醒一下他是基隆的敘秋指揮所那敘秋呢在過去這個林佑昌市長的任內獲到了硬體方面很多的補助但是到了現任呢因為可能不同的政黨可能相關的補助也非常的微弱所以也沒有辦法對外開放然後就變成所謂的文職管其實這個共業應該我們共同要來"},{"start":526.408,"end":528.87,"text":"本席請教您一下您對建成館有"},{"start":552.031,"end":555.573,"text":"本席在高雄縣政府文化局的時候有經歷過鳳山縣新城這樣一個概念"},{"start":577.068,"end":578.63,"text":"佛山縣舊城在左營"},{"start":592.085,"end":592.285,"text":"林倩綺議員"},{"start":612.018,"end":640.011,"text":"這個概念是不是也是很有趣的一個探討那是不是部長您回去可以想一想這個建成我在想它是因為當時有一個計畫叫做這個建成的這個計畫建到的城我本來以為是建立了建因為有這個計畫結果它後來叫做建成館所以本席在這邊要講的是本席非常同意您剛才講的所有發生的事都是歷史的過程這一頁看完了"},{"start":640.811,"end":647.863,"text":"就翻到下一頁吧是是我們不要一直留在那邊我們看看這一頁然後再往前走"},{"start":649.019,"end":653.821,"text":"本席很喜歡過去在高雄縣跟了一個首長叫做楊秋興縣長他跟本席經常講教育跟文化是人類思想的境地"},{"start":676.192,"end":682.421,"text":"我們作為一個文化人,請我們共同好好守護人類思想的境地。"}]}},{"id":"154522","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154522","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd2a5768f0c499b07ecb3f5941fe16862547ffec24bc1a8f64fbeea9806ed55d9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:41:27 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12:50:51","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T12:41:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:50:51+08:00","duration":564,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":996,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時41分）謝謝主席，有請金管會彭主委、中央銀行嚴副總裁。"],["主席（羅委員明才）：請彭主委、嚴副總裁。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好、副總裁好，時間的關係，我們直接切入正題，上次我請教主委針對P2P的事情，前任的主委是推指導原則，但是金管會針對P2P沒有實際納管，跟其他國家有納管、有監理、有登記的管制，差別非常多，在完全沒有管制的情況下，導致現在P2P成為詐騙集團拿來詐騙的工具，導致了很多家破人亡的事情。上一屆的主委在詢答的時候承認它們所推的自律規範根本沒有法律效力，違反了自律規範不會有任何法律效果，甚至也沒有辦法作民法上面請求權的基礎，針對這樣完全沒有法律效力的自律規範，我上次請教主委，主委說回去想一想，現在時間到了，你目前的規劃如何？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，上次委員有提到旭新科技這家公司的案子，問我知不知道，我們回去也好好去跟局裡面討論。再來我們也有關注到很多它們的帳號被停掉了，這件事情我們有好好去關注。我們有看到剛剛那個個案是因為它在兩個不同的地檢署之間有不同的……"],["黃委員國昌：主委，不好意思，我先打斷一下，個案的部分歸個案的部分，我現在請教你的是你們管制的立場，是蕭規曹隨，你還是沒有打算要管嗎？還是用自律的方式嗎？因為我剛已經提示你了，那個自律規範是毫無法律效果，違反了也不會有任何法律效力，對於前面的主委採取這樣的政策，你還是採取一樣的立場嗎？這是我的問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分其實行政院有指定金管會為對P2P統籌機關，最近我們也是希望積極輔導公會能夠成立。"],["黃委員國昌：公會我們等一下再討論，有些問題還是一樣，之前中央銀行整理出來了，其他各個國家P2P管制的態度，有的要登記，有的要執照，不管怎樣，都有一定程度的管制，但在臺灣我們現在針對P2P是完全沒有管，用一個毫無法律效力的自律規範到底要做什麼，所以我才說，你作為新任的主委，我上次在第一次質詢你的時候就請教你，你需要時間，我也給你時間，你現在的立場有改變嗎？你還是打算放任P2P這樣下去嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我後來了解它應該是要分階段，就像我們對VASP的管理也一樣是分階段，按照它發展的階段。"],["黃委員國昌：你現在打算分幾個階段？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在是用自律規範還有透過銀行之間往來的方式。"],["黃委員國昌：我們就打開天窗說亮話，違反自律規範會有什麼法律效果？就沒有啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，自律規範不是我們的行政處分，也不是這樣，確實如此。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！現在大家都在關心這件事情，還要等到下一次有更多人受害的時候，金管會才要痛定思痛嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以這部分，我們也在思考一下，就剛才委員也有提到……"],["黃委員國昌：你們需要思考多久？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為畢竟是過去金管會整個在做管理的時候，確實我們在過去對機構管理跟行為管理，在這兩塊方面，我們必須要先釐清，當然我們現在可能會優先管理的是行為管理，就是未來比如消費者保護的部分，我們會先……"],["黃委員國昌：你要做行為管理也沒有問題啊！但問題是你行為管理的作用規範在哪裡？就絕對不是這個自律規範嘛！它沒有法律效力，這個我們已經有共識了嘛！你訂的這一個自律規範，根本沒有法律效力，而剛剛你所講的P2P業者的商業同業公會，從去年就說要設，設到今年成立了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在就是因為內政部他們有兩組人馬在那邊，沒辦法協調出來，我們也積極的希望內政部……"],["黃委員國昌：主委，我跟你交換一個意見。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員國昌：當P2P出現了這麼大的問題，這麼多人受害，所有的人在問政府的態度是什麼，我們的政府是沒有態度，只有一個沒有法律效率的自律規範，推說要給業者去自律、要成立同業公會，結果這句話講了一年多，到現在同業公會還沒有成立。"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實，我們是很積極的在推動這件事情，不過這個有內政部一定的程序在處理這件事情，我們前一陣子也還在協調這件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：主委，我這樣講好了，我覺得站在監督的立場，善盡我們的言責，該說的都說了，該做的都做了，金管會如果繼續採取這樣的立場，我覺得非常的危險，非常、非常的危險。下一次炸彈什麼時候炸、多少人受害，最重要的是，不僅僅是誰要負責，被害人怎麼辦？我希望主委您再回去好好想一想，這樣下去對嗎？這樣算是一個負責任的金管會嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員的指示，確實我們一直都非常放在心上，但是我們是想……"],["黃委員國昌：我切入第二個主題，上次我有請教你，針對我們現在整個房價飆漲跟背後市場的資金有密切的關係，之前央行就警告，不動產貸款占比35.8%，已經太高了，這是在2020年的時候，央行的報告所提出來的，它說這樣子會導致房價推波助瀾，非常的危險，必須要處理，這是2020年央行所提出來的警告。上次我們在詢答的時候，你也認同嘛！銀行的資金不可以拿來炒房，因為百分之三十五點多，央行在2020年說已經比例太高了，結果現在不動產放款的比例，到今年5月已經到37.13%了，比央行說的太高還要高，它實際上面所造成的效果，六都的房價大幅上揚，baseline是2016年，這個是我取得的data，我自己計算出來的，應該是不會有錯。而現實上面，我上次請教你這個問題，認為銀行法第七十二條之二的後門要怎麼處理，你也跟我說針對這一件事情，你們會跟央行開會、協調，這個開會跟協調發生了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就在委員詢問的第二天，我就親自去拜訪總裁，我們對這個問題就做了深入的討論。"],["黃委員國昌：有什麼結論？"],["彭主任委員金隆：總裁跟我的討論就是因為央行的職責是在做穩定金融，希望我們針對第七十二條之二後面的但書部分，能夠做一些更明確的界定，或是一些檢討，或是一些提醒……"],["黃委員國昌：央行總裁做了這樣的建議，金管會接下來做了什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我們回來就請銀行局檢視一下第七十二條之二的部分，大家對這個部分，因為前面的部分，我們是有30%的限制，後面一些但書，比如包括一些廠房，包括一些……"],["黃委員國昌：我上次就有跟您講過，就是因為你們後門開得太大了，所以搞到本來法定是30%嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，後面有一些……"],["黃委員國昌：現在已經到37.13%嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對！"],["黃委員國昌：30%，現在到37.13%了。好，金管會說需要時間去檢討這個後門要不要做更明確的界定，這個是央行總裁給的建議嘛！主席站起來了，我必須要尊重主席，你們還需要多少時間可以把這個檢討做出來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在正在檢討中，其實……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["彭主任委員金隆：問一下局長這邊，差不多再一個月。"],["黃委員國昌：一個月之內，把你們最後檢討的結果，怎麼評估的、最後結論是什麼，有關第七十二條之二，透過行政命令所開的後門要不要重新去處理這件事情，一個月之內提書面報告給所有的委員，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接著請林楚茵林委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大\n參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員\n會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢；二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.94909375,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.336593750000002,"end":15.387218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.47534375,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.07784375,"end":34.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.658468750000004,"end":36.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.67909375,"end":40.125968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.63221875,"end":42.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.555968750000005,"end":44.580968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.35721875,"end":46.150343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.02784375,"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謝謝部長謝謝你 謝謝"},{"start":332.264,"end":335.711,"text":"好 謝謝徐富癸委員部長請回"}]}},{"id":"154519","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154519","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdcfeb9c26cb16a147cb3f5941fe16862547ffec24bc1a8f64a0e7bbdf4b47cc755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"12:28:19 - 12:41:09","影片長度":"00:12:50","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T12:28:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:41:09+08:00","duration":770,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":948,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（12時28分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員大家好。主席，可不可以請彭主委、國發會、經濟部、交通部。"],["主席：請彭主委、國發會、經濟部、交通部。"],["羅委員明才：主委你好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：你上來擔任金管會主委，我覺得這個位子非常重要，本席要送給你兩個禮物，第一個禮物，事情越辯越明，照理說我是在野黨，我來提這個，最開心的是賴清德總統，你想想看為什麼新加坡、杜拜年青人平均薪資可以到臺幣大概10萬元，甚至更多，因為新加坡匯集了全世界很多的投資資金，錢潮滾滾，當然接下來領的薪水也跟著水漲船高，這是很簡單的道理，所以你們講話要小心，搞不好賴總統一直在注意保險法第一百六十四條之四，如果過的話，臺灣股市馬上有機會上看3萬點。今年年底10月5日美國總統選舉答案就要揭曉了，目前川普大概有百分之六、七十以上的支持度，你要調整一下思維喔！很多的報導講川普當選，他是生意人，一定把經濟搞得沸沸揚揚，當美國的資本市場繼續再漲2萬點以上的時候，你想想看，臺灣做好準備了嗎？所以這是本席要送你上臺的第一個禮物，所以今天要討論這個，聰明的政治人物不要站在錯的位子思考事情，今天這個條例如果站在全民、年輕人的立場，大家是舉手贊成的，唯一反對的是誰？各位，王世堅委員剛才講得很清楚，反對的就是保險業者，因為利益沒有了，錢到海外，天高皇帝遠，大家管不到，但是全民希望的是錢回來投資臺灣、根留臺灣。","第二個問題，沒有投資的標的，二十年來，當初這些資金如果沒有出去，台積電外資的持股就不會超過75%以上，反而從另外一個角度來看，每一家保險公司可能手上是滿手的台積電，今天AI的時代來臨，NVIDIA輝達的黃仁勳董事長，他也是臺灣人，連他都想要回到臺灣、要根留臺灣、要把總部放在臺灣的時候，其他的壽險業、其他往外跑的企業，到底心裡在想什麼？好好做嘛！把臺灣做好、做大、做強，讓大家豐衣足食，留在臺灣不是很好嗎？把臺灣變成下一個新加坡，把臺灣變成下一個瑞士，那不是一個很好的場景嗎？主委的看法如何？因為早做晚做起碼都要做，但是有人講一次進來9兆元，立法院有什麼不能協商的？主委你講兩句話，我也會同意你啊！不要調降一半，那調降個10%吧！調降10%回來多少錢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：調降10%的話……"],["羅委員明才：4.5兆元，1%大概4,000多億元。再者，主委如果講一句話，不要一次進來啊！你分批啊！慢慢進來啊！你分10年，我會不同意嗎？我的目的不是叫它一次9兆元都回來，我的目的是站在臺灣年青人的立場，我要幫年青人加薪，如果9兆元回來，年青人薪水沒有往上漲的話，我的薪水全部捐出來。我跟你講，我講這個方法也不是第一天了，第一天我不會講這些事，問題是我在立法院已經30年了，我都知道什麼原因，戲棚下站久了就知道內容重點在哪裡。主委身負重任，你也可以從善如流，過去沒有做的，我們很期盼金管會不只是管理，而是要肩負發展的重責大任，我們希望你提出來的一些方向，包括重大公共建設，也麻煩你聽一下。交通部，國外的例子可以投資當作標的的公建大概有什麼？高速公路可不可以？機場可不可以？你們手上大概有什麼案？我們今天提這個案其實就是一個催化劑，你們20年來統統都不做，你們做點事啊！請問有什麼項目可以提出來讓保險業者投資的？"],["林副司長茂雄：我們交通部促參的案件近五年來總共大概有3,600多億元，平均每年簽約的案件有700多億元，我們並沒有特別排除投資的對象是誰。"],["羅委員明才：有什麼東西可以提出來，大一點的？"],["林副司長茂雄：大一點就是我們附屬機關高公局、鐵道，如果有土地或工程想要促進民間參與，我們都會鼓勵它們提出來，我們每年會統整案件、辦理招商大會對外招商。"],["羅委員明才：整個環島打通的高鐵有沒有可能？"],["林副司長茂雄：如果評估完效益夠，應該也是不無可能。"],["羅委員明才：效益一定夠啊！你要為臺灣的未來十年、二十年來想，我們現在做事是要為以後的子孫來想一些未來的去路，例如兩岸和平，大陸和全世界的觀光客來臺灣，請問他需不需要一條快速的環島高鐵？需不需要？"],["林副司長茂雄：這個超乎我能夠回答的範圍。"],["羅委員明才：很多限制限制了你的思考和回答，但是大家心裡都知道你要講的答案，我們要你多找一些好的案子，多評估一下，提供給其他各部會參考。","另外請國家發展委員會。"],["邱代理處長秋瑩：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：請問你們準備好了嗎？如果這些資金陸陸續續回來，你們有沒有什麼好的案子可以提出？"],["邱代理處長秋瑩：我們正在協同相關部會評估適合促參的案源，特別是要符合壽險業要求的長期與穩健的報酬，例如初步盤點可能有一些比較具有穩定收益的，像是會展中心、污水下水廠，或是具有公益性質的文化場館，我們會優先來推動。"],["羅委員明才：它的收益有沒有辦法OK？"],["邱代理處長秋瑩：還在評估中。"],["羅委員明才：就是大於3.875%，有沒有可能？"],["邱代理處長秋瑩：後續還需要一些評估。"],["羅委員明才：有喔？"],["邱代理處長秋瑩：要再評估。"],["羅委員明才：請教交通部，目前臺灣的高速公路都有收費，算一算投報率是多少？"],["林副司長茂雄：這個資料目前沒有，因為我不是監理它們國道的業務司。"],["羅委員明才：交通部是你們管的，應該要準備。沒關係，請你盤點一下交通部所管得到的、可以提出投報大概超過3.8%以上的，好不好？你把資料拿給主委、拿給財政部長。","彭主委，我很認同你講的讓臺灣成為亞太資產管理中心，這裡面牽涉到很多人才回流的問題，也請部長可以思考一下，國外的資金來、國外的人才來，課稅的問題看能不能鬆綁，我們有些地方課稅課太重了，希望這個部分部長也可以跟主委好好聊一聊，我們大家共同努力，其實就是愛臺灣，把臺灣做強、做大，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。報告委員，剛剛提到有關希望保險業加強投資臺灣，我想大家都應該會支持，我們首先要解決案源的問題，剛剛委員提到修法，我們希望有更明確的做法，否則以現在來看，大家就會有這個疑慮，立刻就會有資金的移動、影響到我們資本市場以及壽險業財務健全，我想大家的顧慮應該在這邊。"],["羅委員明才：主委大概想說慢慢來，沒關係啦！二十年統統不做，就從今天當一個起點，也不見得一次要調降一半，分年一次5%，本席也是可以接受。因為時間的關係，你猜得到我要送給你的第二個禮物嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛已經收過一個禮物，滿開心的。"],["羅委員明才：那個是小菜兩三碟，再送你一個禮物，就是當沖降稅，年底就到了，我們趕快把它提通過，讓整個資本市場不要有不確定的因素一直綁在那個地方，你贊不贊同？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的立場已經很明確表達給財政部，我們也跟財政部做滿多協商，把我們金管會所主管的職責考慮全部已經提供給財政部，因為是財政部主政，我們會配合它們的時程來辦理。"],["羅委員明才：你贊成當沖降稅繼續延長嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們贊成維持現在當沖降稅……"],["羅委員明才：幾年？"],["彭主任委員金隆：至於期間的部分是財政部的職權，我們尊重。"],["羅委員明才：本席有提一個延長五年。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們提的案子是這樣，但是要尊重財政部。"],["羅委員明才：你也是講五年嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["羅委員明才：是因為我提，還是你本來就算5年？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們給的意見是這樣，但是要尊重財政部的職權。"],["羅委員明才：好啦，give 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輝達的黃恩勛董事長他也是台灣人啊連他都想要回到台灣要跟流台灣要把總部放在台灣的時候其他的授權業其他的往外跑的這些企業到底心裡在想什麼好好做嘛把台灣做好做大做強讓大家豐衣足食"},{"start":236.618,"end":256.515,"text":"留在台灣不是很好嗎?把台灣變成下一個新加坡嘛。把台灣變成下一個瑞士嘛。那不是一個很好的場景嗎?所以這是第一個。所以我請教你,你的看法怎麼樣?因為,早做晚做,起碼都要做啦。但是,有人講說一是進來久照,"},{"start":259.346,"end":271.209,"text":"唉 立法院有什麼不能協商的主委你講兩句話我也會同意你啊不要調降一半調降個10%吧調降10%的話回來是多少錢調降10%的話4.5兆那大概一%就是大概4千多億"},{"start":280.936,"end":304.512,"text":"再來,主委你如果講一句話,不要一次進來啊,你分批啊,慢慢進來啊,你分10年,我會不同意嗎?我的目的不是叫他一次9兆都回來啊,我目的是站在台灣年輕人的立場啊,我要幫年輕人加薪啊。如果9兆回來年輕人的薪水沒有往上漲的話,那我的薪水全部捐出來。"},{"start":310.165,"end":336.623,"text":"我全部捐出來我跟你講我講這個方法也不是第一天第一天我不會講這些事問題我在立法院已經30年了我都知道什麼原因大概戲名卡卡顧就是外人就知道那個事情知道那個內容重點是在哪裡所以我也希望主委你身負重任那你也可以從善如流"},{"start":337.963,"end":355.267,"text":"過去沒有做的我們很期盼金管會不是只有管理而是要肩負發展的一個重責大任所以我們希望你提出來的一些方向包括你這重大公共建設所以也麻煩你聽一下請交通部交通部國外的例子可以投資當作標的工建大概有什麼高速公路可不可以"},{"start":368.174,"end":384.504,"text":"機場可不可以你們手上大概有什麼案我們今天提這個案其實就是一個催化劑啦你們20年來通通都不做那你們做點事啊來請問你說有什麼項目可以提出來讓保險業者投資的"},{"start":386.654,"end":408.204,"text":"我們交通部那個復產、民間餐飲的案件大概近5年來總共有3600多億平均每年簽約的案件有700多億那我們並沒有去排除特別去排除說投資的對象是誰所以有什麼東西可以提出來大一點的大一點的就是那個剛剛講的"},{"start":411.701,"end":432.53,"text":"就是我們部署機關包括高工局、鐵道那些他們如果有土地或是工程他想要促進民間參與我們都會鼓勵他們提出來那我們每年會統一的案件然後辦理遭上大會向對外遭上那請問一下整個環島打通的高鐵有沒有可能"},{"start":437.083,"end":459.608,"text":"如果說評估完,可以那個效益夠,應該也是不可能。效益一定夠啊。你要為台灣未來的10年、20年來想嘛。我們現在做事,是要為以後的子孫來想一些未來的去路嘛。比如說,如果兩岸和平,"},{"start":461.192,"end":488.73,"text":"大陸還有全世界的觀光客來台灣請問他需不需要一條快速的環島高鐵?需不需要?這個超乎我能夠回答的範圍很多限制限制了你的思考跟回答但是大家心裡都知道你要講的答案"},{"start":489.907,"end":515.382,"text":"我們希望你多找一些好案子然後多評估一下提供給其他各部會來做參考謝謝另外那請國家發展委員會是委員好請問你們準備好了嗎如果這些資金陸陸續續的回來你們有沒有什麼好的案子可以提出"},{"start":516.321,"end":538.602,"text":"我們正在協同相關部會在評估適合促參的案源特別是要符合那個受險業他們要求的長期穩健的報酬比如說出戶盤點可能有一些比較具有這個穩定收益的像是會展中心、污水下水場或者具有公益性質的像是文化場館這些我們會優先來推動"},{"start":540.523,"end":568.968,"text":"那他的收益有沒有辦法,OK?就是還在評估中大於3.875有沒有可能?就是後續還需要一些評估,是有齁?要再評估,這樣好,再評估一下好,那個交通部我再請教一下就是目前台灣的高速公路他都有收費他算一算,你頭炮率是多少?這個數字我目前沒有因為我不是"},{"start":570.254,"end":599.184,"text":"監理他們這個國道的AOC因為交通部是你們管的啊你們應該要準備好沒關係請你盤點一下交通部所管的到的可以提出超過投報大概是3.8以上的好不好交通部3.8以上投報率你把資料拿給主委拿給財政部長好謝謝那接著還是請主委"},{"start":601.63,"end":627.357,"text":"黃主席,我很認同你講的讓台灣成為亞太的資產管理中心那這裡面牽涉到很多人才要回流的問題也請部長可以思考一下乖資金來、乖的人才來課稅的問題看能不能鬆綁就是我們有一些地方課稅課太重了"},{"start":629.471,"end":644.712,"text":"希望這個部分部長也可以跟主委好好聊一聊我們大家共同努力其實就是愛台灣要把台灣做強做大好不好報告委員剛剛提到就是有關那個"},{"start":646.154,"end":671.085,"text":"希望保險業加強投資財產我想大家都應該會支持那我們當然首先要解決按援的問題再去說這個剛剛委員提到那個修法我們希望有一個更明確的做法否則以現在來看的話大家就會有這個疑慮立刻會有這些那個資金的移動影響到我們的資本市場以及受險業財務健全我想這個大家的顧慮應該是在這邊好 謝謝主委大概想說這慢慢來啦沒關係啦"},{"start":672.285,"end":700.725,"text":"二十年通通不做就從今天當是一個起點也不見得一次要調降一半分年一次5%、5%分析也是可以接受最後因為時間關係我還有第二個禮物要送給你你猜得到嗎?剛剛已經收過一個禮物了蠻開心的那個是小菜兩三碟再送你一個禮物就是當沖降稅年底就到了"},{"start":701.243,"end":726.052,"text":"我們趕快把它提通過讓這個整個資本市場不要有一個不確定的因素一直綁在那個地方你贊不贊同我們的立場已經很明確的表達給財政部我們也跟財政部做做蠻多協商把我們所有有關我們金管會所主管的職責的考慮全部已經提供給那個財政部因為是財政部在主政我們會配合他們的時程來所以主委你贊成嗎"},{"start":726.972,"end":727.072,"text":"當沖降稅繼續延長"},{"start":756.54,"end":761.048,"text":"好,謝謝羅明才、趙薇,請主委回座下一位有請黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"154518","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154518","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdfc9bad8aa354c24327d0a78c1009ae5e47ffec24bc1a8f649f39026cf38ee7fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:35:39 - 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Kusui的得獎感言是說「剛剛結束了7年在凱道的抗議，為了原住民族群傳統領域的事情」，我們看到的是這個，我們非常感謝他發表這樣的得獎感言。然後他後面提到天安門事件，對原住民族而言，他的這一句話「我們都不要忘記」，是「都」喔！天安門事件不要忘記，凱道事件也不要忘記，對原住民族而言是這樣，所以臺灣要加油，因為對原住民族而言都是統治者。","對原住民族而言，還有臺語專輯獎，榮獲最佳臺語專輯獎，對原住民族而言，包括客家人，對用「臺語」這兩個字其實是很有意見的，因為臺灣的語言簡稱臺語，應該包含著在臺灣各個族群的語言，這是一個。好，因為為什麼呢？你看Panai Kusui，他在凱道一樣是被驅離喔！在臺灣是被警察驅離，在大陸是軍方驅離，這個讓大家也瞭解一下。","今天的主題是文化資產，成功宜灣教會我質詢了很多次，宜灣教會它被列為歷史建築，這樣的外牆仍然一直到現在，你看這個照片，它是歷史古蹟。依照文化資產保存法第十一條規定，中央主管機關應寬列預算，專款辦理原住民族文化資產的保存維護，部長，當然你剛上任，我從107年7月30日就質詢，然後甚至去實地會勘，質詢了這麼多次，一直到去年的5月22日。好，文化部也開了一個線上會議，這個理由都不充分，不能說因為前面那一條道路有爭議就不處理，這不應該成為一個理由啦！這個其實也不是地主的，它已經是既成道路，鎮公所也把它列為既成道路，他就不應該擋，所以你們要修那個歷史建築，當然可以啊！對不對？不能受到任何的影響，所以這個部分，前面那個已經拆除了，擋的也沒有了，現在沒有理由了吧？什麼時候可以執行？"],["李部長遠：報告鄭委員，這個教堂非常重要也非常漂亮，我們已經開始處理了，之前有一些產權問題還有其他問題，全部協調完畢，我跟您保證，我們會解決。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為真的是很久很久了，什麼時候可以……"],["李部長遠：因為我們找到預算是屬於風災、地震之類，我們可以給它預算，我們找到那個項目，因為這個教堂對我們來講是非常重要的，所以我們已經編了預算補助它了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，就麻煩部長。"],["李部長遠：是，沒問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：麻煩文化部積極地處理。"],["李部長遠：有，是，已經在做。"],["鄭天財Sra 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這個本代股稅在今期獎得獎感言這個大部分這個對我用比較中性的用詞對於他發這個今期獎感言天安門事件也是剛好35年大陸的很多的都對這個這樣的發言不滿意我用比較中性的不滿意"},{"start":58.917,"end":83.512,"text":"這臺灣的很多人很滿意是不是這樣應該是吧我來說對原住民族而言大陸的漢人不滿意臺灣的漢人很滿意這是原住民族的角度我們看這個發言"},{"start":87.659,"end":115.505,"text":"原住民族所看到的是什麼呢?巴奈古瑞他的發言得獎感言是說剛剛結束了7年在凱道的抗議為了原住民族群傳統領域的事情我們看到的是這個我們非常感謝他這樣的一個得獎感言然後他後面提到天安門事件對原住民族而言"},{"start":116.704,"end":142.993,"text":"他這一句話我們都不要忘記多喔天安門事件不要忘記凱道事件也不要忘記對原住民族而言是這樣所以台灣要加油因為對原住民族而言都是統治者都是統治者然後對原住民族而言還有台語專輯獎榮獲"},{"start":146.621,"end":162.834,"text":"最佳臺語專輯獎對原住民族而言包括客家人對用這個臺語這兩個字其實是很有意見的因為臺灣的原住民臺灣的語言臺灣的語言簡稱臺語應該包含著在臺灣的各個族群的語言這個是一個"},{"start":174.212,"end":196.707,"text":"因為為什麼呢?你看這個本萊古瑞他在凱道一樣是被欺凌在台灣是被警察欺凌被警察欺凌在大陸是軍方欺凌這個是讓大家也了解一下今天的主題無化資產"},{"start":201.789,"end":212.376,"text":"成功移彎教會我質詢了很多次這個移彎教會它是一個被列為歷史建築這樣的一個外牆這整個仍然一直到現在"},{"start":231.506,"end":252.633,"text":"歷史古蹟 《文化資產保存法》第11條規定中央主管機關應寬列預算 專款辦理 援助民族文化資產的保存維護部長 當然你剛上任我從107年7月30號"},{"start":256.587,"end":258.409,"text":"文化部也開了一個線上會議"},{"start":274.333,"end":302.524,"text":"這個理由都不充分不能說因為有前面的那條道路有爭議就不處理這不應該是成為一個理由啦這個地主把這個其實也不是他的啦他已經是繼承道路鄉公政公所也把他列為繼承道路他黨就不應該黨"},{"start":304.107,"end":316.971,"text":"所以你們要修這個歷史建築對不對當然可以啊對不對不能受到任何的影響所以這個部分要請這個"},{"start":320.154,"end":345.728,"text":"前面的已經拆除了黨的也沒有了現在沒有理由了吧什麼時候可以執行報告鄭委員您這個教堂非常重要也非常漂亮然後我們已經開始處理了之前有一些產權問題還有其他問題全部寫到完畢我跟您保證我們會解決因為真的是很久很久了"},{"start":347.662,"end":348.382,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":376.496,"end":376.737,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝鄭天財委員和部長請回"}]}},{"id":"154516","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154516","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bddbfd994bb79b759e27d0a78c1009ae5e47ffec24bc1a8f649d9045ad635f6ddf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:21:29 - 12:35:33","影片長度":"00:14:04","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T12:21:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:35:33+08:00","duration":844,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":871,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時21分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["李部長遠：范委員你好。"],["范委員雲：部長午安，辛苦了！因為剛剛已經有很多人檢討了金曲獎的頒獎，而且我們今天有一個臨時提案已經通過了，所以我就不再多講，我本來是要求一週內，但是我配合大家。我還想再提一個，就是除了小編，剛剛吳沛憶委員有提到小編，這個絕對不是小編可以處理的，因為就像這一次巴奈講的，音樂本身不是跟政治無關，過去金曲獎的頒獎已經有非常多跟政治相關的議題，所以那個SOP沒有執行真的應該要好好地檢討，怎麼看待金曲現場這個小編的服務。另外，我再補充一下，當天的麥克風不是只有在MC HotDog上場的時候，它整個高度還好幾度遮掩了我們重要致詞人的臉部，我在現場看到都覺得很尷尬。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["范委員雲：所以這些檢討也請一併納入，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：是，我會。"],["范委員雲：因為這是我們這麼重要的一個文化活動，當天現場我是覺得非常地欣賞，也很得到文化上的刺激，重要的文化慶典我想我們不應該忽略，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["范委員雲：我們再回來談，因為剛剛幾位委員針對中正紀念堂跟部長都有很精彩的對話，我今天比較想提的是，我覺得文化部的發言真的要更謹慎一點啦！剛剛部長有講到，之前文化部是說因為國防部阻撓嘛！那顧立雄部長，我今天才知道是我們林宜瑾委員去質詢的，非常精彩的內容，顧部長已經說了可以不要在銅像旁，再來就是文化部主管的事，可惜我們文化部次長的回應是說跨部會活動不是單一部會說了算，好像給人感覺怎麼又在互踢皮球了？然後在最近，剛剛林宜瑾委員也有提到，行政院中正紀念堂轉型推動專案小組成員的發言是說已經做出撤出的決議，當然部長剛剛有澄清，說您有看了這個紀錄，可是我的感覺是今天部長在現場才有把這個價值、態度講得比較清楚。","我之前也有質詢過，其實你們給我們教文委員的報告都已經講了，中正紀念堂在促轉會解散後，文化部作為主責機關負責中正紀念堂轉型，這個轉型當然是轉型正義的轉型，那可以理解，因為前面也有委員提到部長講到歷史記憶的事情，我是想找一個解套讓我們這條路走得更順啦！我先請問部長，你有沒有聽過，你知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區？"],["李部長遠：我知道。"],["范委員雲：它是哪裡您知道嗎？"],["李部長遠：臺灣民主紀念園區啊？"],["范委員雲：對。"],["李部長遠：應該是有好幾個地方。"],["范委員雲：所以部長顯然也不熟悉，跟部長報告……"],["李部長遠：這個名字沒有太流行吧！你把中正紀念堂叫做臺灣民主園區，一般人的確是不知道。"],["范委員雲：好，一般人不知道，但是部長您要知道啊！為什麼？因為中正紀念堂有兩種文資身分，2007年是國定的，登錄為國定的文資身分，它的名稱就叫做臺灣民主紀念園區。部長，您知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區是我們現在圖上的藍色塊，還是粉紅色塊？"],["李部長遠：藍色塊。"],["范委員雲：那您就錯了。"],["李部長遠：粉紅色塊，對不起。"],["范委員雲：那個藍色塊是臺北市政府核定的，可見大家都不瞭解。"],["李部長遠：粉紅色這一塊，對。"],["范委員雲：臺北市政府把它核定為市定文化景觀，然後中間的粉紅色是臺灣民主紀念園區，至於最核心的堂體，深藍的部分，您知不知道有被哪一塊匡定？有被我們臺灣民主紀念園區匡定嗎？"],["李部長遠：它已經被定為國定古蹟吧！這一塊。"],["范委員雲：好，沒關係，因為時間關係，這個堂體非常有意思，兩塊都有匡定。臺北市匡定的市定文化景觀是包最大的，他們有他們官方的理由，至於2007年當時的文建會匡定的是粉紅色，包含兩個藍的。","再來，我們看它匡定的理由是什麼。民主紀念園區裡面有一點，就是呼應剛剛部長講的，「本古蹟為臺灣重要之政治空間，承載多數臺灣住民二戰後的各種政治記憶，有其足夠的代表性」，然後名稱叫做「民主」，就是認為一個民主紀念園區要記得這種政治記憶，很多著名的。這個是陳水扁擔任總統在2007年核定的，至今沒有被改過，馬英九擔任總統的時候也沒有改這個部分，所以臺灣民主紀念園區是不變的地位。","我們來看一下不同政黨的郝龍斌，他們都有開過會的，它的官方文字是什麼？建築兩邊都有講到，你看它的第二點，它有兩個理由，第二點中間說「廣場部分多年來為重要集會或民主運動抗議表達場所，從學運到燈會以及選舉造勢晚會等等，與民眾集體記憶及認同意義深遠」，最後，休閒那個當然有講，但是最重要就是說「故全區具文化性紀念園區之價值，已成為市民休閒、藝術及公民歷史事件之共同活動與記憶」，我想請問部長，這兩個版本，一藍一綠聽起來，你覺得最大的共識是什麼？"],["李部長遠：那就是走過歷史的共同記憶，但是大家解釋歷史的方式不同。"],["范委員雲：這裡面還沒有涉及到怎麼解釋不同喔！它解釋也許有不同，沒有說出來，但是相同的部分就是肯認它是重要的地方，是民主記憶的一個過程，就算有威權也是民主，所以從威權走到民主，我認為這個是超越藍綠的共識，否則在郝龍斌當市長的時候他匡了這麼大，可是他寫出來的東西我們今天看起來，跟陳水扁擔任總統的時候寫出來的東西並沒有明顯的差異。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["范委員雲：所以我們踩定這個立場其實就沒有錯了嘛！就是威權走到民主是怎麼走的，現在大家共同的價值超越藍綠的就是民主，然後民主過程的歷史記憶怎麼展現。","我們看一下，鄭麗君部長他任內做的事情是停播「蔣公紀念歌」，把具威權意象的「中正藝廊」、「介石廳」改為「1展廳」、「2展廳」等中性的名稱。李永得部長，當時我也要求做了相關轉型正義的小旅行等等，文化部都有去努力辦理相關活動，然後增設獨裁者VS.自由的靈魂常設展等等。史哲部長展出了「想像中正紀念堂的100種方式」特展。再來就是我們李部長了，所以部長可以好好地思考一下，在這個藍圖上您的目標是什麼。","對我們來講的話，我想今天幾位委員都有提到，在一個月內至少可以有一個三軍儀隊撤離銅像旁的規劃跟想法，剛剛您有說到9月嘛！如果您覺得一個月不夠，我覺得不管是到自由廣場，如果是國家儀隊、三軍儀隊的話，他應該保護的是自由跟民主，對不對？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["范委員雲：不是保護一個偉人或獨裁者，現在已經沒有人敢說他是偉人了，就是一個威權的政治領導者，或者是有委員主張說應該是表演性質，我想這個部分，空間是文化部，但是怎麼去詮釋從威權到民主，應該是我們大家超越藍綠共同的共識，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["范委員雲：那部長可以在一個月內，或者是您覺得不夠，兩個月也可以，給我們一個您初步的規劃，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：一個月絕對可以。"],["范委員雲：好，可以，部長加油。因為在鄭部長、李部長、史部長之後，我們覺得這條路應該是可以走得更順了。","再來，今天這個主題要謝謝召委，這一題也非常地重要，不知道部長知不知道我們文史團體有發起連署，在大安區過去也是被保留的日式建築群裡面有曹永和跟陳奇祿的故居，連署人數超過3,000人，包含45位校長、館長、院長、所長，還有367個教授及21個學會，不知道部長有沒有看到這個新聞？"],["李部長遠：有，不但有看到，而且我非常重視，因為其中曹永和先生跟陳奇祿先生我都認識，而且我曾經在學習歷史的過程中跟他們學習過，所以這整個過程我非常注意。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。很高興部長知道，而且它不只是個人的居所喔！那個是日治時代的建築群，臺大有保留一部分，它本身也是有建築上面的價值，再加上文史價值，所以連署非常地熱絡。","我們辦公室接到陳情之後去研究了這個案子，發現有不少問題，這是其中一個建築群，這裡面有陳奇祿的故居，它曾經在106年受理，後來就是因為有文資潛力，所以在會勘之後予以列冊，而且107年開會都是持續列冊，有保存價值。可是居然4年後被突襲，111年被突襲，而且過程中都沒有依照文化部相關的行政命令跟手冊，沒有依規定通知提報人，最誇張的是它解列，從此不再列管，就是不被認為有文資地位，那個會議跟我們立法院很像，沒有討論所以也沒有民主，變成報告案。那我們看了文化部的函釋，很明確說這種案子解列管、解列冊是非常重要的，解列案應該要實質討論，它是用報告案，而且報告的時候稀哩呼嚕地沒有告訴大家明確的地址，所以有程序上的瑕疵，這是溫州街這一個建築群的情況。","另外一個2、4、6、8號建築群，這是另外一位曹永和故居的建築群，同樣地，5次現勘都沒有進入屋內，依照文化部的指示，屋內一定要進去，戶外、戶內進去，然後也沒有依規定通知提報人。因為這些委員不斷地在換，對不對？過了幾年之後，提報人最知道文史價值，然後在會議裡面決議不具文資價值，所以這裡面都有嚴重的程序瑕疵耶！甚至我們可能講到文資法的主要精神，它其實違反了，因為文化部自己的函釋及相關的辦法都是在維護文資法的精神嘛！所以這幾個問題，當然這個是臺北市政府的，不在我的質詢範圍內，但我想文化部有責任要瞭解。","今天因為時間的緣故，我們可以看到，這也不是我第一次發現地方政府有類似的問題了，我想請文化部做兩件事，針對層出不窮的地方文化局不遵照文化部的行政命令及相關手冊建議的程序違失，文化部要有一個究責機制吧？否則我們老是在搶救個案，會搶救不暇，這第一個可以嗎？部長。"],["李部長遠：我們目前的法規是沒有究責。"],["范委員雲：沒有，它就不遵照你們的規定，我剛剛講了。"],["李部長遠：沒有究責，但是我們會去……"],["范委員雲：對，讓搶救文史的人，連通知都沒有被通知耶！"],["李部長遠：我們來檢討一下。"],["范委員雲：好，這是第一個。第二個，這裡面涉及到的，剛剛那個主角也是我很熟悉的臺灣大學，其實不只是臺大，就是說現在有很多都更案對他們來講，好像覺得已經保存一部分了，是不是不需要再保存？我覺得這個當然是跟主事者認為的臺大利益，他可能覺得有一些衝突，我覺得這個部分我們滿困擾的。因為像臺鐵，剛剛也有委員看到它被罰200萬的事嘛！對於這些擁有眾多歷史、有文資潛力的老建築的臺大、台糖、台電、臺鐵這一類公家機關，是不是文化部想想看，如何協助鼓勵他們主動盤點跟保存呢？因為私人的話，我們可以講那個是財產的問題，但這些臺大、台電、台糖、臺鐵都是國家的資產，是不是更應該率先好好地保存，保護我們這些文資潛力？好不好？"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題，這個盤點……"],["范委員雲：否則在財務自主的壓力下，大家想出各種方式，我覺得會讓所有關心文資的人跟我們的後代子孫，哪天知道我們沒有努力的話，他們會非常失望的。這兩個部分，您看多少時間內可以給我們一個報告？"],["李部長遠：一個月。"],["范委員雲：一個月，好，謝謝部長，我們一起加油。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，部長請回。","接下來請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐富癸","林倩綺","林楚茵"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.844093750000001,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.63221875,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.509718750000001,"end":134.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.19784375,"end":66.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.22284375000001,"end":68.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.09159375,"end":71.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.12096875,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.20909375000001,"end":76.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.76971875000001,"end":79.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.33909375000002,"end":186.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.50471875000002,"end":154.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.78659375,"end":187.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.52909375000002,"end":189.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.28409375,"end":191.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.92096875000001,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.64659375000002,"end":192.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.75596875000002,"end":195.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.94971875000002,"end":196.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.96221875,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.62034375000002,"end":197.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.63721875000002,"end":197.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.65409375000002,"end":197.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":198.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.02534375000002,"end":200.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.09221875,"end":209.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.41596875000002,"end":231.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.97971875000002,"end":220.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.43346875,"end":233.74971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.20534375000003,"end":247.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.52159375000002,"end":236.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.42409375000003,"end":239.67284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.16596875000002,"end":244.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.76909375000002,"end":244.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.64659375000002,"end":245.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.87409375000001,"end":263.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.14784375000002,"end":251.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.55471875,"end":270.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.10659375,"end":371.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.37784375,"end":377.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.35159375,"end":384.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.10596875000005,"end":461.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.14346875,"end":414.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.52409375,"end":514.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.21971875,"end":493.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.70471875000004,"end":495.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.0265937500001,"end":514.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.0603437500001,"end":514.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.9040937500001,"end":521.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.6372187500001,"end":522.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.9028437500001,"end":559.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.3528437500001,"end":567.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.7734687500001,"end":572.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.73471875,"end":672.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.9272187500001,"end":583.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.71909375,"end":708.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.9497187500001,"end":741.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.21034375,"end":744.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.3872187500001,"end":747.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":746.42909375,"end":749.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.67784375,"end":750.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.7197187500001,"end":836.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.1328437500001,"end":753.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.63471875,"end":754.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":802.84221875,"end":803.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.0590937500001,"end":821.2022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEA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有請部長"},{"start":13.666,"end":43.01,"text":"報告委員你好部長午安辛苦了因為剛剛已經很多人就是檢討了我們的金曲獎的頒獎而且我們今天已經有個臨時提案已經通過了所以我就不再多講那我本來是一周但我想配合大家那我還想再提一個就是除了小編剛剛吳佩儀委員有把小編就是這個絕對不是只是小編可以處理的因為就跟這次巴奈講的音樂本身不是跟政治無關"},{"start":43.95,"end":53.157,"text":"金曲獎的頒獎過去已經有非常多跟政治相關的議題所以我想那個SOP沒有執行真的應該要好好的檢討那怎麼看待金曲現場的這個小編的服務那另外我想我再補充一下"},{"start":59.042,"end":59.062,"text":"范雲"},{"start":89.926,"end":115.508,"text":"再回來,因為剛剛我們幾位委員針對中正紀念堂都有很精彩的跟部長的對話那我今天比較想提的是就是我覺得文化部的發言真的要更謹慎一點那就是我們剛剛部長有講到之前文化部說因為是國防部阻撓嘛那顧立雄部長我今天才知道是我們林益勤委員去質詢的又非常精彩的內容"},{"start":116.068,"end":133.285,"text":"他已經說了可以不要在同項旁那再來就是文化部主管的事那可惜我們文化部次長的回應讓人感覺說是說是跨部會活動不是單一部會說了算好像給人感覺一個怎麼又互踢皮球了所以我覺得"},{"start":137.767,"end":151.89,"text":"行政院專案機場轉型推動專案小組成員的發言說已經做出撤出的決議當然部長剛剛有澄清說您有看到這個記錄可是我的感覺是今天部長才有在現場把這個價值態度講得比較清楚"},{"start":154.631,"end":157.012,"text":"中正紀念堂促轉會解散後．文化部作為主責機關．負責中正紀念堂轉型轉型當然是轉型正義的轉型"},{"start":171.761,"end":192.227,"text":"那可以理解因為前面有委員提到部長又講到歷史記憶的事情我是想找一個解套讓我們這條路走得更順我先請問部長部長你有沒有聽過你知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區我知道那它是哪裡您知道臺灣民主紀念園區對應該就是有好幾個地方吧所以部長顯然也不熟悉跟部長"},{"start":202.736,"end":231.149,"text":"這個名字沒有太流行吧就是說你把中文紀念場叫做臺灣民主園區的確是一般人不知道好一般人不知道但是部長您要知道啊為什麼因為中文紀念場有兩種文資身份2007年是國定的國定的就是登錄為國定的這個文資身份它的名稱就叫做臺灣民主紀念園區那部長您知不知道臺灣民主紀念園區是我們現在圖上的藍色塊還是粉紅色塊"},{"start":232.455,"end":232.476,"text":"藍色塊"},{"start":234.246,"end":262.654,"text":"那您就錯了那個藍色塊是台北市政府核定的那個可見大家都不了解台北市政府核定它是叫做市定文化景觀然後呢中間的粉紅色是台灣民主紀念園區那最核心那個堂體深藍的那您知不知道有被哪一塊框頂有被我們台灣民主紀念園區框頂嗎"},{"start":266.756,"end":294.546,"text":"這是被已經被定為國境古蹟吧這一塊好那沒關係喔因為時間喔這個堂體喔非常有意思的兩塊都有框定就臺北市喔框定的市立文化景觀是包最大的那他們有他們的一個官方的理由那2007年喔就是當時的是叫做文建會嘛框定的是粉紅色包含兩個藍的所以那"},{"start":295.006,"end":316.257,"text":"那再來我們就看他框定的理由是什麼那民主紀念園區裡面有一點就是剛剛部長講的有呼應本股積為臺灣重要之政治空間存在多數臺灣著名二戰後的各種政治記憶有足夠的代表性那名稱叫做民主的就認為就一個民主紀念園區要記得這種政治記憶很多著名的"},{"start":321.239,"end":342.049,"text":"這是在陳水扁擔任總統2007年合訂的那至今沒有被改過馬英九擔任總統的時候也沒有改這個部分所以他台灣民主紀念園區是不變的地位那我們來看一下不同政黨的好龍兵他的官方他們這個都有開過會的官方的文字是什麼建築兩邊都有講到"},{"start":347.213,"end":358.102,"text":"廣場部分多年來為重要集會或民主運動抗議表達場所從學運到燈會以及選舉、造勢、晚會等等與民眾集體記憶及認同意義深遠故全區具文化性紀念園區之價值已成為市民休閒藝術及公民歷史之共同活動與記憶"},{"start":372.473,"end":396.912,"text":"我想請問部長這兩個版本一籃一綠聽起來你覺得最大的共識是什麼?它就是走過歷史的共同記憶但是大家解釋歷史的方式不同啊這裡面還沒有涉及到怎麼解釋不同喔它解釋也許有不同沒有說出來但是相同的部分就是肯認它是重要的地方然後就是民主記憶的一個過程"},{"start":398.533,"end":402.897,"text":"所以從威權走到民主我認為這個是超越藍綠的共識否則在郝龍斌當市長的時候他框了這麼大可是他寫出來的東西我們今天看起來跟陳水扁擔任總統的時候寫出來的東西並沒有明顯的差異所以我想我們採定這個立場其實就沒有錯了就是威權走到民主是怎麼走的"},{"start":422.035,"end":448.593,"text":"那現在大家共同的架子 超越藍綠的就是民主然後民主的過程的歷史記憶怎麼展現那我看一下我們鄭麗君部長她任內做的事情是停播蔣公紀念歌把具威權意向的中正義郎屆時聽改為一展廳二展廳等中性的名稱李永德部長當時我也要求了做就是說相關轉型正義的小旅行等等那有去文化部都有去努力"},{"start":449.253,"end":461.165,"text":"辦理相關活動：偵射獨裁者vs自由的靈魂長射展史哲部長展出了想像中正經驗的一百種方式特展再來就是李部長"},{"start":465.509,"end":465.809,"text":"菁姐,您的目標是什麼?"},{"start":496.35,"end":520.427,"text":"委員或獨裁者現在已經沒有人敢說他是委員了就是這個威權的政治領導者那或者是有委員主張說應該是表演性質我想這個部分空間是文化部但是怎麼去詮釋從威權到民主應該是我們大家超越藍綠共同的共識好嗎是那部長這個可以一個月或者是您覺得不夠兩個月可以給我們一個您初步的規劃好嗎"},{"start":521.664,"end":521.704,"text":"主席"},{"start":536.724,"end":538.506,"text":"不知道部長有沒有看到這個新聞?"},{"start":559.406,"end":562.469,"text":"謝謝很高興部長知道而且他其實不只是個人的居佑"},{"start":577.182,"end":588.451,"text":"那個建築群就是日治時代的那個就是台大有保留一部分的這個建築群本身也是有建築上面的價值加上這個文史價值所以連署就是非常的熱絡那我們辦公室接到陳情之後去研究了這個案子發現有不少問題這個是其中的一個群就是這裡面是有陳其祿的那個故居的"},{"start":602.403,"end":606.547,"text":"他曾經在106年當時就受理所以後來就是因為有文資潛力開會刊之後云與列冊的可是居然而且107年開會都是持續列冊就是有保存價值可是居然4年後被突襲"},{"start":622.102,"end":648.964,"text":"111年被突襲而且過程中都沒有依照文化部的相關的行政命令跟手冊沒有規定通知提報人最誇張的是他解列他從此不再列管了就是不被認為有文資地位那個會議跟我們立法院很像沒有討論所以也沒有民主變成報告案那我們看了文化部的函式很明確說這種案子解列管"},{"start":649.665,"end":671.724,"text":"解裂策是非常重要的解裂案應該要實質討論他用報告案而且報告的時候稀哩呼嚕的沒有告訴大家明確的地址所以有程序上的瑕疵這是溫州街這一個建築群的另外一個2468號建築群是另外一位的是曹永和的這個建築群一樣有同樣的"},{"start":672.825,"end":683.334,"text":"五次現刊都沒有進入屋內依照文化部的指示屋內一定要進去戶外戶內進去然後也沒有依規定通知提報人因為這些委員不斷的在換對不對過了幾年之後提報人最知道文史價值然後呢在會議裡面決議不具文資價值"},{"start":691.361,"end":707.007,"text":"所以這裡面都有嚴重的程序瑕疵甚至我們可能講到文資法的主要的精神它其實違反了因為文化部自己的函式相關的辦法都是在維護文資法的精神所以這幾個問題"},{"start":708.848,"end":709.108,"text":"文化部部長"},{"start":725.768,"end":726.108,"text":"這第一個可以嗎?那個部長"},{"start":744.688,"end":746.689,"text":"我們目前的法規是沒有救責：范雲"},{"start":764.758,"end":766.418,"text":"主事者認為的台大的利益,他可能覺得有一些衝突。我覺得這個部分我們蠻困擾的,因為像剛剛台鐵也有委員看到被罰200萬的事,這些擁有"},{"start":787.203,"end":805.257,"text":"眾多歷史有文資潛力的老建築的臺大、臺堂、臺電、臺鐵這一類的公家機關是不是文化部想想看如何協助鼓勵他們主動盤點跟保存因為私人的話我們可以講到那個是財產的問題那這些臺大、臺電、臺堂、臺鐵都是國家的資產"},{"start":812.442,"end":836.57,"text":"是不是應該更率先要好好地保存保護我們這些文資潛力好不好那否則就在就是說財務自主的壓力下大家想出各種方式我覺得會讓文資所有關心的人跟我們的後代子孫哪天知道我們沒有努力的話會非常失望的那這兩個部分部長是不是可以您看多少時間內可以給我們一個報告好嗎"},{"start":837.617,"end":839.3,"text":"謝謝部長,我們一起加油!"}]}},{"id":"154514","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154514","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdf6809f069e7acbf9cb3f5941fe16862547ffec24bc1a8f6495fd8e6f829ddb215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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席慶祝台股兩萬三千點的行情邀請大家一同的來吃雞排喝珍奶在這邊謝謝趙偉那今天我覺得既不可思啦我們也安排了保險業的資金要投入公共建設"},{"start":28.347,"end":43.852,"text":"讓我們國內的整個經濟體質能夠更加的強壯所以在這裡先請教一下主委您提供的金管會資料有提供一個民間參與公共建設的情形裡頭寫到2013到2023這10年間民間參與公共建設的案件數大概有1262件"},{"start":55.515,"end":78.06,"text":"投資的金額大約是1兆5000多億那其中保險業投資的37件他的金額是3244億如果以投資金額來看的話這個保險業占民間參與公共建設的占比大概是22%那請教主委您覺得這個比例是高還是低"},{"start":79.72,"end":107.309,"text":"這個是財政部所提供的資料他是從促參的角度來看我們金管會的那個統計資料呢都是從我們的保險法的那個分類來區分不過不管是哪一個的那個數字都顯示保險業投資在公共建設是偏低的所以是偏低那我們再看一下他投資的項目內容如果我看到資料他是寫說"},{"start":108.909,"end":124.938,"text":"向物流中心、商業設施四件、文教設施兩件、觀光遊器的設施、運動的設施、交通的建設各一件。您看到這一些投資標的項目,主委您覺得如何?"},{"start":126.105,"end":155.035,"text":"其實這裡面因為按照保險法令它是有公共建設專案運用跟長照那個社福事業大概是這個三大類當這裡面比如說公共建設還有像比如說專案運用那就蠻多元即便公共建設其實它項目也蠻多元的只要吻合我們那個上面規定的要件都是所以它項目會蠻多的可能很多跟我們想像是不太一樣的不太一樣那我請教一下主委因為您剛剛有說嘛"},{"start":156.482,"end":158.184,"text":"主要障礙到底是哪些?"},{"start":173.866,"end":175.528,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員會．加速建設之推動．加速建設之推動．"},{"start":193.887,"end":223.039,"text":"就讓保險業所能選擇的那個項目就比較少這是我們的比較大的困難因為我也看到金管會就是您剛剛所提的那幾個條件就是適合保險業投資的六個條件您剛剛都自己說出來了那總而言之因為這個資金是來自於人民、民間所以呢需要穩定長期合理的報酬是它一個很重要的條件那您覺得合理的報酬率大概要多少"},{"start":223.379,"end":223.599,"text":"主席"},{"start":243.588,"end":270.346,"text":"人能夠更低一點的報酬假他是比較積極型的話他可能要求他是個整個組合來看當然平均的期待大概是3到3.5左右這樣那個那主委你剛剛也有提嘛就是如果要符合這六個條件篩選出來可以投資的標的項目就不多了嘛那到底現在有沒有什麼具體的規劃就是一些到底我們要規劃什麼引導受險業的資金來投入有沒有規劃"},{"start":271.667,"end":286.123,"text":"比如說我們也有去觀察國外的一些例子比如說我們有看到國外他們把他們的電廠電廠他會跟比如說民眾收電費他可以把比如說未來幾年的收入先把它做個證券化"},{"start":287.344,"end":288.244,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17"},{"start":314.696,"end":315.057,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":326.26,"end":348.133,"text":"能夠破除一些法規的限制能夠拿出來讓大家看看有什麼新案源對你剛剛有提到如果參考國外的案例你有提到電廠、快速道路等等那也有提到說可能未來我們還是會朝向購買公共服務這樣的一個方向去走那請教一下其實我自己個人蠻在意的是像長照安養機構"},{"start":349.974,"end":350.074,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":380.174,"end":402.006,"text":"那你們有沒有跟衛福部討論過這個問題我們的長照的部分其實按照我們剛才講保險法146號之四裡面它其實上就已經有規範可以做這些事情只是說因為長照事業呢在其他部會裡面也是他們等於說算是管理的一個事業它有它一定的要求比如說"},{"start":403.007,"end":425.782,"text":"我們保險業想投資的住宿式的長照機構而言因為這部分是長照法人法裡面還是長照機構的法規裡面有規定一些限制比如它對董事的這個席次的上限只有三分之一我們保險這邊可以同意到三分之二再來它的那個盈餘分配的時候它必須先扣除比如10%或20%"},{"start":427.443,"end":427.543,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":443.986,"end":464.213,"text":"現在進入到我們這個金管會主委這個職務那你也是主導政策法規那請問剛才我問的這個問題那您會不會去著手來排除這些法規上的障礙也能夠積極地跟做一個跨部會的協商去成就這些問題"},{"start":466.074,"end":480.864,"text":"這當然是我們努力的方向比如說其實我們保險法這邊假設我們要突破這個障礙其實有時候要發揮一點創意比如說我們保險法146-6可以做保險相關事業的投資那假設有一個類似的長照服務公司"},{"start":481.664,"end":498.339,"text":"那他可以提供我們很多長照機構一些長照的服務的話保險公司在投資這種公司也是間接的可以做到這些事情說不定這個我們可以發揮一些創意再來跟各個部會來溝通說不定我們可以化解彼此的法規障礙"},{"start":499.48,"end":512.291,"text":"主委我希望您可以朝這個方向多去引益除了去放寬投資比以外我覺得有更多的一些精進的措施、做法希望你可以朝這個地方邁進"},{"start":514.733,"end":543.462,"text":"因為我自己是認為說當大家去提到我們要去看醫療的看長照機構的或者是去做自來水的普及其實都有一個問題同樣的問題都是集中於都會啦我們比較希望說他能夠去照顧到我們偏鄉的需求那到底怎麼樣去引進資金願意在合理的報酬之下願意來參與這樣的投資我覺得這是金管會財政部很重要的一個任務"},{"start":544.242,"end":571.07,"text":"並且我個人是覺得啦就是隨著國內這個固定資本形成毛額年增率逐漸的成長其實引導資金回台對我來講它不是最急迫的需求我覺得比較重要的是更細膩的政策規劃然後引導資金投入公共建設特別是我們關心的是非都會地區偏鄉的公共建設我覺得這個部分就希望主委"},{"start":571.71,"end":600.28,"text":"您在這個方面可以多著力一下那因為我覺得如果我們按照資料上所顯現的就是保險業投資這個運用到公共建設如果說是約6千億如資料上所寫的僅佔可運用資金33兆的1.86%那顯然仍有大量的保險業資金可以嘗試導入到臺灣的公共建設所以我在這邊就是特別像我們偏鄉很多"},{"start":600.72,"end":600.92,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":622.586,"end":649.983,"text":"金管會財政部就是進一步的幫我們歸納研擬適當的指標作為保險業資金導入不同公共建設的類型跟模式的一個評估標準那也希望請金管會財政部針對長照、幼托、社宅這些公共建設研議怎麼加強引入保險業資金那我也希望說我剛剛關心的這個住宿型的安養的機構可不可以去責定一個偏鄉先去試辦一個沙盒計畫來做做看"},{"start":651.924,"end":653.265,"text":"主委,您的意見如何?"},{"start":687.466,"end":687.705,"text":"議員。"}]}},{"id":"154513","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154513","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdc0874a75249165b327d0a78c1009ae5e47ffec24bc1a8f64b268d5fed35f2e155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:11:52 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NFT藝術平台上架，可以成為治理代幣，治理代幣成為焦點，在promote整個詐騙集團。不管是NFT還是剛剛我所講的Chaebol平台，我把它圈起來，部長，您看一下，這位記者徐薇淳是一個假人，根本不存在，他所發的所有的稿子全部都是詐騙集團寫的。","最後一張slide，我要拜託部長回去請中央社徹查，為什麼？因為在整個詐騙的進行過程當中，我們來看一下中央社，2023年3月28日正是整個詐欺犯行最嚴重的時候，最多人受害的時候，我們的中央社發了什麼新聞？創造智能與三立合作發行NFT，首創影視娛樂通行證。我不要造成任何誤會，我今天沒有站在這邊指控說三立是這個詐騙集團的一員，沒有！我沒有提出這樣的指控，但請部長看最後一段，這稿子是怎麼寫的？「對於NFT的流通性與保值，創造智能此次與NFT平台Chaebol合作，使用者可以在Chaebol平台質押NFT，避免當NFT流通性枯竭時產生有行無市的風險，最終目標是讓企業和品牌的NFT產生明確價值，幫助使用者保值。」這一段描述跟我們前面所講的詐騙集團在外面成立空殼公司，用假的記者所發出的詐騙新聞稿的描述一模一樣，Chaebol平台就是這整個王牌交易所詐騙集團當中的一環。","所以，我要拜託部長回去徹查，我們的國家通訊社、中央社怎麼發這種新聞啊？怎麼發這種新聞在幫詐騙集團？他們所promote負責拿來欺騙人的平台，竟然用中央社的招牌在幫他們背書promote，這是一件很嚴重的事情，因為在檢察官起訴的犯罪事實裡，這種假新聞稿已經成為詐騙，是檢察官起訴犯罪行為當中的一環，這個假記者背後的人，在寫稿的人也一起被起訴了，但我真的很痛心的是，你如果是那種莫名其妙的公司、莫名其妙的記者寫的東西就算了，這個是我們的中央通訊社2023年3月28日的發稿。","現在整個王牌交易所，大部分的人被羈押的羈押、被起訴的起訴，結果在幫這個已經被偵破的詐騙集團在promote的新聞竟然還掛在我們中央社上面，這個新聞到底怎麼出來的？這是廣編嗎？這個是收錢嗎？還是有人委託，要中央社的記者刊這一種幫詐騙集團promote的新聞？部長，可不可以承諾徹查？"],["李部長遠：沒有問題，如果是涉及到跟文化部有關的中央社，我來瞭解，而且我們會……"],["黃委員國昌：這個新聞是怎麼產製出來的？稿子是誰提供的？這很嚴重耶！"],["李部長遠：好，我會……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，您需要多少時間？"],["李部長遠：我越快越好，因為這樣聽起來有點複雜，可是要查也不難。"],["黃委員國昌：是，一個禮拜之內跟大家講，好不好？"],["李部長遠：一個禮拜，好。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員，部長請回。","接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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吸了二十幾億甚至去利用蓮池金色這個宗教團體母女兩個人之間用不法犯罪所得 層層的"},{"start":178.018,"end":193.476,"text":"成立了一堆人頭公司來幫忙洗錢那其中有一家公司我覺得很奇怪叫做移賺股份有限公司在檢察官偵辦整個犯罪的過程當中起訴的過程當中發現了"},{"start":195.158,"end":220.972,"text":"這一個人頭謝詩穎女性她現在正在被法院羈押當中她當人頭用不法犯罪所得用不法犯罪所得所成立的其中一家其中一家人頭公司是在整個犯罪集團當中的一環她公司登記的地址在三立集團的大樓裡面舊中路那個大樓的三樓"},{"start":221.892,"end":250.134,"text":"其中有40%的持股是山立集團下面的創造智能股份有限公司共同持有這個一賺股份有限公司這個一賺股份有限公司到底是在幹嘛的涉入整個詐欺的罪行扮演什麼角色還有帶檢察官進一步的釐清這個跟部長我今天要請教部長的事情一點關係都沒有但我要告訴部長的事情是什麼"},{"start":252.052,"end":272.88,"text":"裡面現在一樣同樣被起訴的兩位資深媒體人一位叫做江建良一位叫做李燕蘭他們兩個都涉入了整個詐騙集團的範圍當中那這兩位跟三立集團也有關係但這也不是我今天要跟部長講的重點但我要請部長看齁"},{"start":273.993,"end":302.912,"text":"他們的犯罪手法是什麼明明知道銷售沒有實際應用價值沒有實際價值的垃圾幣然後呢他們要鑄造NFT跟Shabob平台合作這個Shabob平台是這個詐欺犯的主弦整個犯罪結構當中其中的一環他騙大家什麼你買這個虛擬貨幣未來到這個Shabob平台上面有交換價值可以質押借款"},{"start":303.672,"end":328.444,"text":"但問題是什麼這個平台本身就是詐騙集團的一環我剛剛跟部長講的那個狀況我們現在這些詐騙集團厲害到什麼他去成立媒體公司叫做民生科技傳媒他上面怎麼講的Shabot NFT藝術平台上架然後可以怎麼樣成為治理代幣"},{"start":330.137,"end":347.672,"text":"自理代幣成為焦點在promote在promote整個詐騙集團不管是NFT還是剛剛我所講的那個shabot平台我把它圈起來部長您看一下這位記者徐維存這個徐維存這個徐維存"},{"start":350.089,"end":372.243,"text":"是一個假人根本不存在他所發的所有的稿子全部都是那詐騙集團寫的好最後一張slide是我今天要拜託部長回去請中央社徹查的為什麼因為在整個詐騙的進行過程當中來看一下我們的中央社2023年3月28號"},{"start":375.338,"end":395.745,"text":"2023年3月28號正是整個詐欺的範型最嚴重的時候最多人受害的時候我們的中央社發了什麼新聞創造智能與三立合作發行NFT首創影視娛樂通行證我不要造成任何誤會我今天沒有站在這邊指控"},{"start":396.785,"end":412.644,"text":"說三立是這個詐騙集團的議員沒有我沒有提出這樣的指控但請部長看最後一段這稿子是怎麼寫的對於NFT的流通性與保值創造智能此次與NFT平台Shabot合作"},{"start":413.425,"end":413.906,"text":"這段描述啊"},{"start":431.926,"end":456.662,"text":"跟我們前面所講的詐騙集團在外面成立空殼公司用假的記者所發出的詐騙新聞稿的描述啊一模一樣小報平台就是這整個王牌交易所詐騙集團當中的一環我要請部長拜託回去徹查我們的國家通訊社中央社怎麼發這種新聞啊"},{"start":459.557,"end":487.315,"text":"怎麼發這種新聞啊在幫這個詐騙集團他們所promote負責拿來欺騙人的平台竟然在幫他們什麼用中央社的招牌在幫他們背書promote這是一件很嚴重的事情因為在檢察官起訴的犯罪事實裡這種假新聞稿已經成為詐騙檢察官起訴犯罪行為當中的一環"},{"start":489.858,"end":508.932,"text":"背後這個假記者背後的人在寫稿的人也一起被起訴了但我真的很痛心的是你如果是那種莫名其妙的公司莫名其妙的記者寫的東西就算了這個是我們中央通訊社2023年3月28號的發稿現在整個王牌交易所全部"},{"start":510.865,"end":522.628,"text":"大部分的人被羈押的羈押被起訴的起訴結果這個在幫這個已經被偵破的詐騙集團在Promote的新聞竟然還掛在我們中央社上面這個新聞到底怎麼出來的這是廣編嗎這個是收錢嗎還是有人委託"},{"start":537.216,"end":555.294,"text":"要中央社的記者看這種幫詐騙集團Promote的新聞部長可不可以承諾徹查沒有問題如果是涉及到跟文化部有關的中央社我來瞭解而且我們會這個新聞怎麼產製出來的是稿子誰提供的是這很嚴重欸"},{"start":556.115,"end":556.916,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"154512","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154512","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdc336dc2218031df2cb3f5941fe16862547ffec24bc1a8f644d9f4a3faaf30f325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:03:50 - 12:16:36","影片長度":"00:12:46","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T12:03:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:16:36+08:00","duration":766,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":881,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時3分）謝謝主席。我們請財政部關務署。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，財政部部長先上來了。有關離島地區進口商品免徵關稅的部分……"],["主席：麻煩也請關務署彭署長。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長、署長中午好。我想請問財政部，金、馬、澎3縣在民國104年曾經提出修正免徵關稅品項及理由彙整表，本席上個月也在這邊質詢，說財政部有關「離島地區進口商品免徵關稅」未曾檢討，財政部當時回答表示，會後會整理一份資料供本席參考。離島地區進口商品免徵關稅項目是按照離島建設條例第十條第二項和相關的實施辦法，89年是公告164項，到99年陸續增列至320項，但是看過往的這些進出口歷史資料，雖然適用的辦法有這麼多項，有320項，署長，對吧？但是實際上有運用到的，在110年有適用到這個辦法的項目只有1樣進口，到111年只有8項，112年15項，意思是說，我們相關的免徵關稅商品的項目，應該是相當的不符合實際啦！你看，占的比例就只有0.3%、2.5%、4.6%，這個對離島居民來講完全失去了當初訂定這些辦法相關的意義，沒有實際嘉惠到離島的居民。三個離島的縣市政府，澎湖、金門、馬祖歷年來也都一直有建議增列一些項目，譬如說103年澎湖縣政府有建議增列1,000cc以下的小型電動車；104年連江縣政府建議增列水產品；104年金門縣政府和澎湖縣政府建議增列砂糖、花生等10項農產品，還有釉料、風力發電機組、公共汽車、小客車等19項工業產品；105年連江縣政府也建議增列農產品、漁產品、釣魚用具、寢具、家具等42項，但是我們財政部都一直沒有同意，一直打回票，反而是你們原來列的300多項，只有一項、兩項是這麼多年來真的有進口的。","你們的理由一直在說產業發展方面是不是會對國內產業產生衝擊；或者是貨品管理方面是不是能確保在當地銷售，會不會大量流入臺灣本島；第三個理由，你們說稅收、稅損的部分會不會影響統籌分配款云云。大家都知道，至少我們金門的綜建計畫裡頭，就是在中央政府核定的綜建計畫裡頭，一直要把金門這個離島建立成為一個免稅島。事實上，這些相關的產品進到金門地區，我們那時候也是說一定有幾個規定：第一、限於地方使用，限於離島當地使用；第二個、強化管理措施。部長，您知道現在從金門帶很多東西到臺灣島來，事實上都是要檢查的嗎？你們知道實際的情形嗎？或者是署長您知道嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，你是說從離島到臺灣本島，那是屬於國內線的話……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，但是你知道，事實上還是有通關，你知道要檢查嗎？你不知道？"],["彭署長英偉：我不知道，因為屬於國內線的……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為你們不瞭解實際的情形，所以你們才會產生這樣的誤解。我覺得我們真的可以找時間去看金門地區，至少我想馬祖、澎湖應該也是一樣，從金門地區人到臺灣來，當然要通關，我們還要證件，坐飛機還要相關的檢查，警察機關要做相關的查驗，貨物也是一樣，農產品或者你帶的東西，我跟農委會也反映很多次，帶什麼雞蛋等等，比如說我們吃的雞排，帶這種農產品、漁產品或是肉類都要檢查，還有從碼頭出去的貨物，海巡署也要進來檢查，當然不是關務署檢查，但海巡署也要做相關的檢查，檢查看看有沒有是大陸的東西，就是說是不是大陸進來的，是不是有誇張的量，是不是有人藉由從大陸進東西再轉到臺灣本島來。事實上，這個關卡本來就是蠻嚴格的。","所以當初各個離島縣市金、馬、澎提出來這些相關的建議，事實上，都是因為當地的產業有需求，你瞭解嗎？並不是說真的進來後就大家會轉到臺灣，沒有，因為太難了，離島的海運、空運，什麼東西都檢查，根本就是我一直在講的，像一國兩制、兩個國家，並不是說我們今天從臺北這裡到新北，什麼東西都不用檢查，我們過來這裡，什麼東西都要檢查，是有限制的，而且如果他覺得這樣不對，也不讓你退運出去，東西不能出到本島來，關卡是很嚴格的，所以我想請財政部重新評估，貨物限於離島當地使用才可以免關稅，然後強化管理措施，避免流到臺灣，還有朝免稅島的方向前進，稅收影響少，在政策方面，請你們是不是一個月內幫我們評估出來？有關品項，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關品項，剛剛就委員的說明，雖然目前列了320項，可是好像用到的非常少，所以覺得有點不符合實際，可是也跟委員報告，離島地區的營業人，他如果進口商品在當地銷售、當地用，這個部分免關稅沒有問題，但是因為離島到我們本島之間的交通，在貨物管制上，剛剛委員也有提到可能有不同種的原因去做檢查，但是因為免關稅的關係，他如果進到本島的話，它的成本就會比較低，會影響到國內的產業……"],["陳委員玉珍：你有看過實施這一二十年、二三十年來，都沒有產品這樣進口，從外面進來，也沒有辦法轉到臺灣去，表示這個東西，第一、很不實用，第二、這個關卡事實上是守得很嚴的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，剛剛委員也講到……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們要找時間實際去瞭解，實際做一個報告出來。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們也跟……"],["陳委員玉珍：連縣政府建議的這些品項，你們都不採用，事實上是有點誇張。"],["莊部長翠雲：因為縣政府的建議，我們還要跟產業主管機關來會商……"],["陳委員玉珍：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，是不是我們再跟產業主管機關來做評估以後再跟您提出一個書面報告，好不好？"],["陳委員玉珍：對，請你們一個月做評估。因為這也有涉及經濟部，經濟部今天有專委過來，經濟部來的是國營事業，這個都比較不相干，但是可能也請經濟部把我們這個意見帶回去，一個月做出評估的報告，經濟部有人來嗎？有喔！麻煩你把這個意見帶回去，主席這邊也請協助。","再來，我們談到今天的保險資金這個部分，是金管會，財政部當然也聽一下，我們今天討論這個提案就是說讓保險資金多一點留在我們國內，因為賴總統不是也說要把臺灣變成資產管理的中心嗎？要根留臺灣、錢回到臺灣嘛！這個事實上是一個很好的政策，而我們委員會今天討論這個提案，保險資金留在國內，事實上是非常正向的，所以本席也是相當的支持啦，怎麼樣讓保險資金擴大參與公共建設，大家看一下這個表，你看，從2014年來到今年，雖然投注在公共建設資金的金額有上升，但是占壽險業32.65兆裡頭不到百分之一，相當少。","事實上，我知道金管會也有在開始修REITs這些相關法令要促進這些產業留下來，現在國發會當然也在說支持這個案子，盤點一些可以釋出的產業，包括高速公路、再生能源、海淡廠可以來投資。在這個投資上面，本席有幾個疑問，第一個，彭主委在接受媒體專訪的時候，你說金管會希望先找到實驗型個案走一小步確定可行，外界看到引導壽險資金留在臺灣的可能性後，再進入跨部會的這部分，目前有找到什麼實驗型的個案嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在還在積極地去規劃，比如最近我們已經透過跟保險業者密集地去討論，希望確認他們的需求，然後有這個需求以後，我們再看看尋找什麼案源……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，多久大概可以找到你的實驗型個案？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們希望儘快，不過這不是我們金管會一個人所能夠決定，我們會儘快、儘速。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，你沒有講時間嘛！所以這樣回答就跟沒有回答也是差不多，因為可能兩年後你站在這裡、我站在這裡還是一樣。"],["彭主任委員金隆：至少我們真的會積極地去做這件事，因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：積極要一個目標、時間。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，那……"],["陳委員玉珍：比如說你可能在半年內會跑出一個結果出來，或者三個月內，或者是一年或者九個月，對不對？目標導向嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，如果是金管會能主政的話，我就能夠非常肯定地說。"],["陳委員玉珍：你覺得還要哪一個部會？財政部嗎？國發會？經濟部？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為大部分案源都不會是我們所能夠提出來的，因為我們是投資方，我們希望能夠儘快找到案源，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係啊！我們給你時間再去思考，這個問題也不是到今天為止，但是還有一個議題，我本身更關心的，你看保險資金要留在國內，現在不留在國內的原因，我想大部分的原因是因為也許國內的投資標的的投報率比較差，錢、資金都是往投報率高的地方去，事實上，創造國內好的投資環境是你們的責任啦，也是你們財政部的責任，所以除了這點以外，本席更關心的是，即便保險業的資金回來，在國內各個縣市的投資評估裡頭，我們離島地區又因為偏遠、規模又小，我們覺得我們可能會沒有辦法受到壽險業者的青睞，所以我想提出一個建議，不管財政部也好或者是金管會也好，要做一個評估。財政部報告有說，擴大租稅優惠吸引保險業投資，那本席要特別提出，針對金門等離島地區要怎麼樣有更優惠的方向、政策來提出，讓民間更有意願到金門投資。金管會也是一樣，你們說要研議保險業投資國內的相關獎勵措施，一樣到金門去要怎麼樣……因為平行來講，我們金門就更偏遠了，那就更不容易。我舉一個例子給你們，請你們在一個月內提出相關的保險業赴離島地區投資之具體優惠措施方案，還有金管會也要提出來。我舉一個具體例子給你們參考，一句話而已，像金門因為人少，做醫療就不容易獲利，所以大概很多醫療產業都不願意過去，但偏遠地區也是需要好的醫療，所以衛福部有一個方案，它用醫學中心支援離島醫療，它就有一個獎勵計畫，接著它有在評分裡要求，比如你是榮總，你就要支援，你要當醫學中心，就必須到偏鄉離島去支援，這是列入考核、列入評分，還有列入相關的計畫，我想這個給你們參考，在醫療部分或者是以後我們離島的公共建設部分，我也希望你們在一個月內做出具體的相關政策評估方案，好嗎？可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再來研議。"],["陳委員玉珍：一個月內給我報告，謝謝您。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請伍麗華伍委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席，有請金管會主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好。首先我要謝謝我們的召委、主席，慶祝臺股2萬3,000點的行情，邀請大家一同來吃雞排、喝珍奶，在這邊謝謝召委。今天我覺得機不可失，我們也安排了保險業的資金要投入公共建設，讓我們國內的整個經濟體質能夠更加強壯，所以在這裡先請教一下，主委您提供的金管會資料有提供一個民間參與公共建設的情形，裡頭寫到2013到2023這10年間，民間參與公共建設的案件數大概有1,262件，投資的金額大約是一兆五千多億，其中保險業投資的37件，它的金額是3,244億，如果以投資金額來看的話，保險業在民間參與公共建設的占比大概是22%，請教主委，您覺得這個比例是高還是低？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個是財政部所提供的資料，它是從促參的角度來看，我們金管會的統計資料是從保險法的分類來區分，不過不管是哪一個數字都顯示保險業投資在公共建設是偏低的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以是偏低。我們再看一下它投資的項目內容，我看到的資料是寫說像物流中心、商業設施4件，文教設施2件，觀光遊憩的設施、運動的設施、交通的建設各1件，您看到這一些投資標的項目，主委您覺得如何？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這裡面，因為按照保險法令，它是有公共建設、專案運用跟長照社福事業，大概是這三大類，這裡面比如說公共建設還有專案運用那就滿多元，即便公共建設，其實它的項目也滿多元的，只要吻合我們上面規定的要件都是，所以它項目會滿多的，可能很多跟我們想像是不太一樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不太一樣。那我請教一下主委，因為您剛剛有說，感覺上應該是覺得占比是偏低。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那您覺得保險業投入公共建設，它主要的障礙到底是哪些？"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要障礙的話，我上次有提到假設我們用比較淺顯來提的話，第一個就是它需要有標的，然後這個標的出現以後還需要它的條件吻合它的需求，比如說它的報酬率期間跟穩定度；再來還有它的方式，到底是直投還是間接投資，是投資債券還是投資一些所謂直接參與BOT，這幾個不同的面向組合在一起，就讓保險業所能選擇的項目比較少，這是我們比較大的困難。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，因為我也看到金管會，就是您剛剛所提的那幾個條件，就是適合保險業投資的6個條件，您剛剛都自己說出來了，總而言之，因為這個資金是來自於人民、民間，所以需要穩定、長期、合理的報酬，是它一個很重要的條件，那您覺得合理的報酬率大概要多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們普遍去觀察一下他們現在的資金成本，大概3到4%的報酬是他們所期待的，但是這也不盡然，因為整個保險業的投資組合裡面，它有各式各樣不同的組合，比如說它是一個非常非常穩定的基礎，有可能能夠更低一點的報酬，假設它是比較積極型的話，它可能要求……它是整個組合來看，但它平均的期待大概是3到3.5%左右的報酬。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委，你剛剛也有提，就是如果要符合這6個條件，篩選出來可以投資的標的項目就不多了，那到底現在有沒有什麼具體的規劃，就是到底我們要規劃什麼去引導壽險業的資金投入，有沒有規劃？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也有去觀察國外的一些例子，比如說我們有看到國外他們的電廠，電廠會跟民眾收電費，它可以把未來幾年的收入先把它做個證券化，至少電廠就可以把未來的收入收回來，可以把未來的收入當作是它的投報率，可以給投資人來做；像他們國外也有把政府所謂的快速道路或道路會收費，將現金流來做這樣的一個安排，其實民間參與也非常高。我只是說像這個在國內從來都沒有出現的標的，我覺得未來我們可以來參考一下，未來我們有沒有什麼樣的標的可以跟以前做的不一樣，這是我們剛剛提到有沒有一個實驗型的個案，能夠破除一些法規的限制，能夠拿出來讓大家看看，找出新案源。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委，你剛剛有提到，如果參考國外的案例，你有提到電廠、快速道路等等，那也有提到可能未來我們還是會朝向購買公共服務這樣的一個方向去走，那請教一下，其實我自己個人滿在意的是像長照、安養機構，因為你知道我們偏鄉，目前政府長照做得多好多好，像我們的部落文化健康站做得很好很好，也有效、成功地去縮短原住民跟全體國人的平均餘命差距，但是做得最不好的就是沒有安養機構，所以我很在意這一塊，我想要請教您，目前保險投入長照的話，法規上有沒有什麼障礙？你們有沒有跟衛福部討論過這個問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們長照的部分，其實按照我們剛才講保險法第一百四十六條之四裡面，事實上就已經有規範可以做這些事情，只是因為長照事業在其他部會裡面算是管理的一個事業，它有一定的要求，比如說我們保險業想投資的住宿式長照機構，因為這部分是長照法人法裡面還是長照機構的法規裡面有規定一些限制，比如對董事的席次上限只有三分之一，我們保險這邊可以同意到三分之二；再來，盈餘分配的時候，必須先扣除比如10%或20%才能做其他的分配，這些障礙都讓保險業進入到這邊是比較困難，不過比如說衛福部有它自己政策上的考量，當然我們也是尊重，不過未來可以看看有沒有機會……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委，像你這樣子從學界現在進入到金管會主委這個職務，你也是主導政策、法規，請問剛才我問的這個問題，您會不會去著手來排除這些法規的障礙，也能夠積極地做跨部會的協商去成就這些問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，這當然是我們努力的方向，比如說，其實我們保險法這邊，假設我們要突破這個障礙，其實有時候要發揮一點創意，比如說我們保險法第一百四十六條之六可以做保險相關事業的投資，假設有一個類似的長照服務公司，它可以提供我們很多長照機構一些長照的服務的話，保險公司在投資這種公司也是間接的可以做到這些事情，說不定我們可以發揮一些創意再來跟各個部會溝通，說不定我們可以化解彼此的法規障礙。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，主委，我希望您可以朝這個方向多去研議，除了放寬投資比率，我覺得有更多精進的措施、做法，希望你可以朝這個地方邁進。當大家提到我們要看醫療的、長照機構或自來水普及，都有同樣的問題，都是集中於都會，我們比較希望它能夠照顧到偏鄉的需求，到底怎樣去引進資金願意在合理的報酬之下來參與投資，我覺得這是金管會、財政部很重要的任務，我個人覺得隨著國內固定資本形成毛額年增率逐漸成長，引導資金回臺對我來講不是最急迫的需求，我覺得比較重要的是更細膩的政策規劃，然後引導資金投入公共建設，特別是我們關心的非都會地區、偏鄉的公共建設，希望主委在這方面可以多著力一下。如果按照資料所顯現的，保險業投資運用在公共建設約6,000億元，僅占可運用資金33兆元的1.86%，顯然仍有大量的保險業資金可以嘗試導入到臺灣的公共建設，像我們偏鄉很多裁併校，大學也在關，這麼大量體的建築物在偏鄉也很多，如何去突破法規的障礙，能夠去完成我們想要做的公共建設，我希望金管會、財政部可以一同來努力，也希望金管會、財政部進一步幫我們歸納、研擬適當的指標，作為保險業資金導入不同公共建設的類型和模式的評估標準，也請金管會、財政部針對長照、幼托、社宅這些公共建設研議怎麼加強引入保險業資金，我也希望我剛剛關心的住宿型安養機構，可不可以擇定一個偏鄉試辦一個沙盒計畫來做做看，主委的意見如何？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這是有助於保險業資金去化、穩定經營及建設臺灣，又能夠達到平衡臺灣區域，這都是我們要努力的方向。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：希望3個月內給我一個回復，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席（伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員代）：請羅明才召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大\n參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員\n會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢；二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.14471875,"end":1.2122187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.2122187500000001,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.40596875,"end":3.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.199093749999999,"end":4.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":8.434718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.008468750000002,"end":12.012218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.72534375,"end":14.982218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.05409375,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.454718750000001,"end":15.505343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.496593750000002,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.16721875,"end":19.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.41159375,"end":24.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.07346875,"end":28.735343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.937843750000003,"end":34.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.35034375,"end":35.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.32909375,"end":50.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.993468750000005,"end":60.477218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.86534375,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.81784375000001,"end":85.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.78971875,"end":90.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.39659375000001,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.97846875,"end":104.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.36471875000001,"end":108.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.31346875000001,"end":111.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.45221875,"end":114.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.20284375000001,"end":115.21971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.82721875,"end":152.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.28971875000002,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.67659375000002,"end":162.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.80284375000002,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.64221875,"end":174.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.10909375,"end":178.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.07909375,"end":191.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.79846875,"end":193.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.31284375,"end":203.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.42534375000002,"end":206.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.66534375,"end":217.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.88721875000002,"end":232.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.66971875000002,"end":234.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.20096875000002,"end":239.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.17096875000001,"end":238.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.67284375000003,"end":240.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.98909375000002,"end":244.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.79846875,"end":246.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.59159375000002,"end":248.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.84471875000003,"end":277.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.64159375,"end":280.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.52721875000003,"end":284.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.31971875,"end":296.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.64284375,"end":309.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.02471875000003,"end":322.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.59659375,"end":326.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.20346875,"end":346.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.93034375,"end":358.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.29971875,"end":361.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.38784375,"end":363.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.02909375,"end":363.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.49721875,"end":364.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.51409375000003,"end":403.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.05284375,"end":400.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.90471875000003,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":411.9159687500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獎項"},{"start":191.852,"end":214.186,"text":"那大家都知道事實上我們至少金門的這個綜合中間計畫裡頭一直要把金門我們中央政府核定的中間計畫裡頭一直要把金門建成就是建立成為這個離島的這個金門成為一個免稅島那事實上這些相關的產品進到金門地區我們那時候也是說一定有幾個規定"},{"start":215.707,"end":243.901,"text":"限於地方使用,限於離島當地使用第二個,強化管理措施部長您知道金門現在帶很多東西到台灣來到台灣島來事實上都是要檢查的嗎?你們知道實際的情形嗎?或者是署長您知道嗎?報告委員你是說從離島到台灣本島那是屬於國內線的話對,但是你知道這個通關事實上還是有通關,你知道要檢查嗎?"},{"start":245.834,"end":270.813,"text":"你不知道齁?所以你們才會有產生因為你們不了解實際的情形所以你們才會產生這樣的誤解我覺得我們真的是早時間可以去看金門的地區至少在我想馬祖宇、澎湖應該也是一樣金門地區人到台灣來當然要通關我們還要證件、坐飛機也要相關的檢查警察儘管也要做相關的查驗貨物也是一樣農產品或者你帶的東西這個我跟農委會反映很多次帶什麼雞蛋、帶什麼"},{"start":274.557,"end":277.98,"text":"海巡署也要做相關的檢查,檢查看有沒有是大陸的東西,就是說是不是大陸進來的。"},{"start":294.616,"end":309.872,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":310.092,"end":326.559,"text":"各個離島縣市經馬鵬提出來這些相關的建議,事實上都是因為當地的產業有需求,您了解嗎?並不是說,進來以後就大家會轉到台灣,沒有,因為太難了。在離島的海運、空運、什麼東西都檢查。"},{"start":327.259,"end":346.419,"text":"根本就是我一直在講像一國兩制兩個國家並不是說我們今天從這裡到台北到新北什麼東西都不用檢查我們過來這裡什麼東西都要檢查是有限制的而且如果他覺得這樣不對你退運也不讓你出去啊東西不能出不能出到本島來所以關卡是很嚴格的所以我想請財政部重新評估啊"},{"start":347.04,"end":361.017,"text":"在貨物現役地道當地使用,然後才可以免關稅,然後強化管理措施避免流到臺灣,還有朝免稅導的方向前進的部分,這個稅收影響少。在政策方面,請你們是不是一個月內幫我們評估出來,有關品項。"},{"start":364.554,"end":371.596,"text":"可以嗎跟委員報告那個品項剛剛就委員的說明雖然目前列了320項可是好像用到的非常少所以覺得有點不符合實際可是也跟委員報告就是說離島地區的營業人那他如果進口商品然後在當地銷售然後當地用這個部分沒有問題免關稅但是就是說因為離島到我們本島之間的交通在貨物管制上就是剛剛委員也有提到可能有不同種的原因去做檢查"},{"start":394.321,"end":418.566,"text":"但是因為免關稅的關係那他如果進到本島的話那對他的成本就會比較低嘛會影響到國內的產業你有看過時事這麼一二十年來二三十年來都沒有產品這樣進口從那個外面進來就也沒有辦法也沒有轉到台灣就表示表示這東西第一很不實用第二這個關卡事實上是守得很嚴的你們要大概實際我想找時間實際去了解然後實際做一個報告出來"},{"start":422.967,"end":423.347,"text":"經濟部,經濟部的話"},{"start":444.748,"end":453.941,"text":"經濟部今天來是國營社這個都比較不相干但是這個可能也請經濟部把我們這個意見帶回去一個月也作出評估的這個報告啦經濟部有人來嗎經濟部"},{"start":456.515,"end":477.996,"text":"麻煩你把這個意見帶回去這個主席這邊也請那個然後接著我們談到今天的這個保險資金的這個部分那個金管會財政部當然也聽一下這個怎麼樣讓保險資金我們今天討論這個提案就是說讓保險資金多一點留在我們國內因為那時候不是也要也說要把台灣變成這個資產管理的中心嗎要跟留台灣要錢回到台灣嘛"},{"start":478.757,"end":479.277,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。"},{"start":501.011,"end":528.341,"text":"雖然金額投注在公共建設的資金金額有上升但是占售險業32.65兆里頭不到1%相當的少事實上我知道經管會也有開始在修這些類似這些相關法令來促進這些產業留下來國發會現在當然也在說官會也是支持這個案子盤點一些可以釋出的產業高速公路、再生能源、海淡廠這些讓這個來投資"},{"start":530.362,"end":545.957,"text":"那在這個投資上面本席有幾個疑問第一個彭主任您在接受媒體專訪的時候您說金管會希望先找到實驗型個案走一小步確定看到這個外界看到雲島受險資金流在台灣可行債進入跨部會的這個"},{"start":546.658,"end":573.544,"text":"目前有找到什麼實驗型的個案嗎?我們現在還在積極的去規劃比如說我們現在最近我們已經透過跟保險業者密集的去討論希望確認他們的需求然後有這個需求以後我們再來看看尋找什麼案源多久大概可以找到你的這個實驗型的個案?我們希望盡快不過這不是我們金管會一個人所能夠決定我們會盡快盡速這樣"},{"start":575.925,"end":596.851,"text":"好 那你是沒有講時間嘛所以這個這樣回答就跟沒有回答也是差不多因為可能兩年後你站在這我在這還是一樣至少我們會真的會積極的去做這件事因為積極要一個目標、時間對 那比如說你可能在半年內會討出一個結果出來或者三個月內或者是一年或者九個月對不對 目標導向嘛"},{"start":597.831,"end":623.889,"text":"就報委員如果是金管會能主政的話我就能夠那你覺得還要哪一個部會財政部嗎國發會經濟部因為大部分的案源都不會是我們所能夠提出來的那我們是因為我們是投資方我們希望說能夠盡快找到案源謝謝沒關係我們給你時間再去思考這個問題也不是到今天為止但是還有一個議題我本席更關心的就是說你看保險資金要留在國內現在都因為不留在國內的原因我想大部分的"},{"start":624.91,"end":646.477,"text":"當中的原因是因為也許國內的投資標定它的投報率比較差嗎?錢都是、資金都是往投報率高的地方去所以事實上我們國內這個創造好的投資環境是你們的責任啦財政部這邊也是你們的責任那所以除了這點以外本期更關心的是即便保險業資金回來在國內的各個縣市在裡面評估投資以同我們離島地區"},{"start":648.237,"end":674.309,"text":"又因為偏遠規模又小我們覺得我們可能會沒有辦法受到保險受險業者的這個青睞所以我想提出一個建議請不管財政部也好或者是金管會也好就是說做一個評估就是說要擴大財政部報告有說擴大租稅優惠吸引保險業投資那本席要特別提出針對金門等離島地區要怎麼樣有更優惠的方向"},{"start":675.069,"end":700.851,"text":"政策來提出讓民間的更有意義到金門投資。金管會也是一樣,你們說要研議保險業者投資國內的相關獎勵措施,一樣,到金門去,要怎麼樣?因為平行來講,我們金門就更偏遠了,那就更不容易。我舉一個例子給你們,那請你們在一個月內提出相關的保險業、副旅島地區投資之具體優惠措施方案,還有金管業也要提出來喔。那我舉一個具體例子給你們參考,一句話而已。"},{"start":702.304,"end":716.805,"text":"這個醫學衛福部針對像基本因為人少那做醫療就不容易獲利所以大概很多醫療產業都不願意過去但偏遠地也是需要好的醫療所以衛福部有一個方案他用"},{"start":717.125,"end":746.869,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":747.279,"end":747.319,"text":"吳立華委員"}]}},{"id":"154510","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154510","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdfb7b9c71597015ea27d0a78c1009ae5e47ffec24bc1a8f64bc8fad7574f95d0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:59:12 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12:10:33","影片長度":"00:11:21","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:59:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T12:10:33+08:00","duration":681,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":784,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時59分）主席，麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：葉委員好，我們又見面啦！"],["葉委員元之：部長好，謝謝！我們今天談文化資產保存，板橋有一個林家花園，應該是國定古蹟，最近因為菜刀房在0403地震之後有毀損，地方政府有跟中央申請補助，不知道下來沒有？"],["李部長遠：這個部分核准了。"],["葉委員元之：核准多少錢？"],["李部長遠：核准多少錢是不是請文資局局長回答一下？"],["陳局長濟民：委員，我們再查一下，因為我們大概在發生的第一週……"],["葉委員元之：這個會全額補助嘛，對不對？"],["陳局長濟民：我們還是按照……"],["葉委員元之：速度可不可以快一點？好不好？因為林家花園是板橋很重要的地標，而且它是非常著名的古蹟，希望能夠趕快補助。我這邊要提兩個部分，我以前在地方服務時對文化資產保存的看法，當然我們對於文化資產都支持，但往往受限於經費，會讓我們的美意打折。第一件事情就是當很多文化資產被提報要變成文化資產的時候，它的保存、維護、修繕都要仰賴文化部所給的B類補助，對不對？但是B類補助是不是預算有限？導致於很多補助沒辦法及時，也沒辦法達到比如說相當的額度，所以就會造成一個狀況，就是文化資產因為沒辦法及時修繕，造成它的價值不斷地減損。這個問題其實蠻嚴重的，我不知道文化部有沒有針對這個問題提出一些策略出來？有沒有？"],["李部長遠：請文資局局長回答。"],["陳局長濟民：第一個，我們當然是積極地爭取預算……"],["葉委員元之：跟誰爭取？"],["陳局長濟民：向行政院，像我剛才提到的全國的古蹟歷史建築的補助修復經費，大概都是我們一個中程計畫，叫做歷史與文化資產維護發展計畫的中程計畫，已經18年了，今年第19年，都是靠這個計畫，去年在第5期六年計畫……"],["葉委員元之：不用講那麼細，因為我們沒有那麼多時間，所以我只是跟你講問題很嚴重。"],["陳局長濟民：是，瞭解。"],["葉委員元之：曲高和寡啦！講得好像文化資產我們多重視，但實際上在地方很多破損要申請補助都拿不到，然後它不斷地毀損，價值遞減，到時要修繕時候要花更多的錢，所以這部分我覺得是比較急的問題要解決。","第二個問題，很多民眾的家產如果被劃定為文化資產的時候，其實他們都不高興，你有發現到這件事嗎？很少人會很高興自己的家被劃為文化資產，主要就是給的獎勵太少了，給獎勵少又影響到他去處分財產，所以他們都不高興，常常在地方就造成很多對立，這個部分我不曉得能不能解決？比如在修法或者是在給相關的獎勵方面可以多一點，讓他覺得做這個事情很好，也願意配合，有可能嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：依現有的話，我們有一些獎勵措施……"],["葉委員元之：就不夠啊！你有沒有去瞭解一下家產被列為文化資產的那些人的心情是如何？"],["陳局長濟民：委員所講的確是事實。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！你們都視而不見。"],["陳局長濟民：我們現在要啟動……"],["葉委員元之：這是我長期觀察到的問題，剛好今天是這個主題，我就反映給你們，我希望不管是在補助的額度跟速度，還有包括有人如果他的家產被劃為文化資產的相對應獎勵，我覺得一定要提高，不然就是曲高和寡，講得好像很厲害的樣子，好像我們很重視，實際上都無法落實，這部分你有沒有可能給我們一個檢討報告？有可能嗎？針對我剛講的兩點，就額外再提供好不好？"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["葉委員元之：一個月內，好不好？"],["陳局長濟民：好。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。","接下來我要關心一下黃牛票的事，張學友演唱會剛結束，劉德華又要來了，張學友那時候的票就很多人都抱怨，因為黃牛的問題。我上次也關心過，文化部因為打黃牛要成立一個打黃牛辦公室，10個月花了800萬，當時是由長慧律師事務所得標，計畫主持人叫袁秀慧，他的顧問叫蘇孔志，後來我們有跟你們調資料，你們有給我看，因為我非常好奇為什麼打黃牛要成立一個黃牛辦公室？800萬怎麼分配呢？我們看了一下，結果發現這個案子真的很奇怪。第一個，光人力包括計畫主持人、協同主持人、專案經理、辦公室督導，加上辦公室的人員5位，成立這個辦公室有9個人，就是文化部為了打黃牛成立一個打黃牛國家隊，然後另外又請了9個人來做這個事情。第二，就是已經請了人，然後那些人的業務範圍內的工作還要另外再付他錢。舉例來講，我用紅色畫起來叫做「客訴報表彙整」，每個月要出一個民眾打來客訴的報表，可能是excel，一個月還要給他3萬元，我不是已經請人來做這個事了嗎？他做的事情，我還要額外再給他錢？好比說我今天請了一個國會助理，我一個月給他5萬元，結果他每次幫我寫質詢稿還要按件計酬，這感覺非常不合理。然後另外我們再看「電腦處理費」，裡面還有一個叫「電腦使用時間費」，就是我們已經給他錢了，但是他只要有用到他辦公室電腦，我另外還要再給錢；甚至還有付磁片的費用，我不知道現在這個年代還有人在用磁片，也是讓我覺得很奇怪。另外還有「行政管理費」，就已經付錢給他們那麼多的薪水了，然後還要再給他行政管理費！可見這個預算編列真的非常奇怪。剛剛我們在講文化資產保護都說沒錢，可是打黃牛的錢是可以這樣隨便給，我不知道部長乍看之下會不會覺得很奇怪？"],["李部長遠：乍看很怪……"],["葉委員元之：我先把它講完，我如果請一個助理，助理幫我寫質詢稿還要另外再跟我拿錢，或是他幫我準備一些PPT還要跟我拿錢，你覺得合理嗎？"],["李部長遠：我請次長回答好嗎？"],["葉委員元之：部長，你回答啦！"],["李部長遠：因為涉及到我們所請來的人裡面有法律，還有資訊……"],["葉委員元之：對，已經有法律這部分的錢了，裡面有50萬叫做「法令遵循流程設計」，也就是我們請那麼多人來做事，然後在法律的部分也是有給他錢喔！部長，沒關係，你先稍微看一下，後面還有其他資料，我繼續秀一下。","再者，這個標案的人全部都綠油油，比如顧問蘇孔志，他就是民進黨政策會之前的副執行長，然後袁秀慧律師以前是謝長廷的子弟兵，這也是我覺得很奇怪的地方，當然你會說他們有專長，所以做這個標案是適才適所，一定是這樣子講。但是從那麼奇怪的預算分配，剛好人又那麼巧合都是綠油油，所以也就啟人疑竇。當然我們辦公室也有跟你們要這個案子的結案報告，就是到底打了多少黃牛？多少黃牛是因為這個辦公室的關係被抓到？就是讓很多本來買不到張學友票的人買到了，但是我看不到這個結案報告書，我不知道這個案子的成效如何，部長，你知道嗎？"],["李部長遠：剛才講袁秀慧是綠油油這件事情，我稍微說明一下，請給我一點機會……"],["葉委員元之：他的那個網站上面……"],["李部長遠：假如我沒有記錯，他是柯文哲時代法律部門的主管，是局長……"],["葉委員元之：那也有可能現在跟柯文哲不好啦，但是現在律師事務所上面的網站是講他跟謝長廷很好。"],["李部長遠：我覺得我們臺灣最糟糕就是把一個人貼標籤，說他是綠是藍還是白。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，這是他標榜的，因為我也很少看到律師事務所的訴求是強調它是綠油油，我也沒看過，但它的網站上就是這樣。"],["李部長遠：我印象中他應該……"],["葉委員元之：好，後面還有。打黃牛除了這個標案之外，我們還有看到另外一個打黃牛的標案，叫做「黃牛專案防制人力勞務採購」，就是說我們已經花錢成立一個打黃牛國家隊，另外我們又有一個專案130萬來做這個黃牛專案防制人力勞務採購，今天沒有時間，我先把這些問題都點出來，你事後再給我報告。","再來我們看，剛剛那個案子長慧律師事務所的案子是10個月800萬，今年我們把那個標案延長了，變成一年半，同樣的打黃牛國家隊的案子把它變成一年半，然後費用也增加為1,500萬，有人跟我講得標廠商叫普華律師事務所，是嗎？是普華嗎？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["葉委員元之：普華裡面有一個合夥人叫賴芳玉，也是跟民進黨很多立委是好朋友。再來我們來看一下普華最近的案子，他得到113年到114年18個月1,500萬的打黃牛辦公室，然後112年也有得到文化部一個法律諮詢服務案148萬，這讓我覺得非常奇怪，就是我們已經有了這個法律諮詢的服務案，然後我們打黃牛又要再找別的律師來諮詢，已經有一個統整的法律諮詢案，然後針對特定項目又要再委託別的法律顧問來諮詢，我覺得文化部是不是真的錢很多？如果錢真的這麼多的話，可不可以把一部分的錢撥到文化資產那邊去？現在文化資產很缺費用，因為今天時間關係，我先把這些問題點出來，希望事後部長可不可以瞭解一下，因為你也是剛上任。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝委員提這個問題。"],["葉委員元之：因為感覺文化部錢真的非常多，可以這樣花！"],["李部長遠：文化部錢不多啦！"],["葉委員元之：我覺得這部分就很多，我剛剛隨便唸就很多。所以第一個關鍵就是要幫人民省錢，你把那些標案審視一下。"],["李部長遠：對，我們瞭解整個案子之後再向委員解釋。"],["葉委員元之：第二，打黃牛問題還是要做，不是只是把錢發包出去而已，因為劉德華演唱會就要來了。"],["李部長遠：好，我們會寫一個報告，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","我們現在先來處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案1案，請宣讀。","臨時提案","本屆金曲獎表演者麥克風「無聲」事件，引發各界譁然，不僅傷害流行音樂盛事金曲獎聲譽，亦丟盡台灣作為科技大國之國家顏面。更有音樂人反映，成音工程設備負責公司已非首次出包，無論是器材的更新保養，又或者技術人才品質皆遭業界質疑。","文化部應於一個月內，以書面形式對立法院教育及文化委員會提出報告，說明實質改革作為，以使對金曲獎承辦單位與相關廠商之審查標準得以提升，痛定思痛精進整體作業。","提案人：林宜瑾","連署人：陳培瑜　　吳沛憶　　范　雲　　郭昱晴　　張雅琳"],["主席：這個提案是本席的提案，部長有何看法？"],["李部長遠：遵照辦理。"],["主席：謝謝，我們就照案通過。如果委員有要補簽提案，請到我的左手邊。","我們接著繼續質詢，請黃國昌委員發言，時間4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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葉委員 第一個我們當然是積極地爭取預算像跟誰爭取跟像行政院像我們我剛才提到的全國的古蹟歷史建築的修補助的一些修復經費大概都是我們一個中層計畫叫做歷史與文化資產維護發展計畫的中層計畫已經18年了今年第19年都是靠這個計畫去年在第5期6年計畫不用講那麼細喔因為我們沒有那麼多時間所以我只是跟你講問題很嚴重啦是是"},{"start":149.474,"end":178.476,"text":"我們不然取高可寡啦講的好像文化資產我們都重視但實際上在地方很多破損要申請補助拿不到嘛然後他他不斷的毀損價值遞減你到時候要修繕的時候你要花更多的錢啊所以這部分我覺得是比較急的問題要解決第二個問題是很多我們的民眾啊他他們家的家產啊如果被劃定為文化資產的時候其實都不高興你有發現這件事嗎很少人是說哎呀我很高興我們家被劃成文化資產的"},{"start":179.873,"end":200.827,"text":"主要就是給的獎勵太少了嘛那給的獎勵少又影響到他去處分這個財產嘛所以他們都不高興那常常在地方就造成很多對立啊那這個部分我不曉得能不能解決比如說在修法或者是在給相關的獎勵方面可以多一點讓他覺得做這個事情很好願意配合 有可能嘛"},{"start":203.22,"end":227.283,"text":"好,委員,就是現有的話我們有一些獎勵措施,但是我知道也不夠你有沒有去了解一下那些被列為文化資產的那些人,他們的心情如何是,委員講的的確是事實阿你們都視而不見阿這是我長期觀察到的問題啦,剛好今天是這個主題我就反映給你們,我希望說不管是在補助的額度跟速度"},{"start":228.204,"end":242.076,"text":"還有包括就是有人如果他的家產被劃為文化資產相對應的獎勵我覺得一定要提高啦不然就是取高合寡講得好像講得很厲害這樣子我們很重視實際上更無法落實"},{"start":243.517,"end":249.741,"text":"接下來我要關心一下黃牛票的事張學友演唱會剛結束劉德娃又要來了張學友那時候的票很多人都很多抱怨因為黃牛的問題"},{"start":266.957,"end":273.611,"text":"我上次也關心過 文化部因為打黃油成立了一個打黃油辦公室10個月花了800萬"},{"start":275.548,"end":297.087,"text":"當時是由常會律師事務所得標那計畫主持人叫袁秀慧他的顧問叫蘇孔志後來我們有跟你們調資料你們有給我看他因為我非常好奇為什麼打黃牛要成立一個黃牛辦公室啊所以八百萬怎麼分配呢就看了一下結果發現真的很奇怪這個案子"},{"start":297.788,"end":322.917,"text":"第一,他光人力,包括計畫主持人、協同主持人、專案經理還有辦公室督導,加上辦公室的人員五位,成立這個辦公室有九個人。就是說文化部為了打黃流,成立一個打黃流國家隊,然後另外又請了九個人來做這個事情。第二,就是說你已經請了人,然後那些人的業務範圍內的工作,還要另外再付他錢。"},{"start":324.668,"end":340.227,"text":"舉例來講 我有一個紅色畫起來叫做客訴報表會診他每個月他要出一個民眾打來的客訴的報表可能是一個Excel你一個月還要給他3萬塊阿我不是已經請人來做這個事了嗎我還要他做的事情我還要額外給他錢"},{"start":341.428,"end":363.421,"text":"好比說我今天請了一個國會助理我一個月給他五萬結果他每次幫我寫質詢稿還要給我案件記酬這感覺非常不合理啊然後另外我們再來看什麼電腦處理費裡面還有一個叫電腦使用時間費就是說欸我們已經給了他這個錢了但是呢他只要有用到他辦公室電腦我另外還要再給錢"},{"start":365.31,"end":389.348,"text":"還有付一個瓷片的費用我不知道我們這個年代還有人在用瓷片也是讓我覺得很奇怪那另外還有一個行政管理費就已經付錢給他們那麼多的薪水了然後還要再給他行政管理費所以這個預算的編列我真的覺得非常奇怪剛剛我們在講文化資產保護都說沒錢可是打黃牛的錢是可以這樣隨便給"},{"start":391.277,"end":416.717,"text":"那我不知道部長你這樣乍看之下你覺得有沒有很奇怪?乍看?對,乍看有沒有很奇怪?或者是我剛剛聽我剛剛講完我請一個助理然後我那個助理幫我寫一個諮詢稿還要另外跟我收錢或者是他幫我準備一些PP PowerPoint還要跟我收錢你覺得合理嗎?我覺得我請次長回答好不好?等一下部長你回答啦好不好?"},{"start":417.99,"end":418.29,"text":"法律專訓流程設計"},{"start":436.042,"end":453.716,"text":"部長你沒關係你先稍微看一下後面還有其他資料我秀一下那這個標案的人全部都綠油油比如說這個顧問蘇孔志他就是民進黨的政策會副執行長之前的然後袁常惠律師以前是也是這個謝長廷的子弟兵"},{"start":454.497,"end":454.697,"text":"主席"},{"start":473.731,"end":487.778,"text":"這個然後我們辦公室也有跟你們去要這個案子的結案報告結案報告就是說他到底打了多少黃牛多少黃牛是因為他的關係被抓到然後讓很多本來買不到張學友票的人買到了我看不到這個結案報告書"},{"start":489.844,"end":499.75,"text":"我不知道說這個案子的成效如何不曉得你知道嗎剛才講元秀會是綠油油這件事我稍微給我一點機會假如我沒有記錯他是柯文哲時代法律的那個主管"},{"start":506.214,"end":532.545,"text":"是局長那也有可能現在跟柯文哲不好啦但是他的現在律師事務所上面的網站是講說他跟謝長廷很好其實我覺得我們台灣最糟糕就是把一個人貼標籤說他是綠還是藍這是他標榜的他標榜的他標榜如果說因為我也很少看到律師事務所他的訴求是他是綠我有沒看過但他的網站上就是這樣我印象中他應該"},{"start":533.305,"end":535.325,"text":"黃牛專案防制人力勞務採購我們已經花錢成立一個打黃牛國家隊另外一個專案130萬"},{"start":555.35,"end":580.436,"text":"又來做這個黃牛專案防治人力勞務採購今天沒有時間我先把這些問都點出來你事後再給我報告然後再來我們來看今年因為剛剛那個案子原常會律師事務所的案子是10個月800萬今年呢我們把那個標案延長了變成一年半同樣的標案打黃牛國家隊的案子把它變成一年半然後費用也增加變1500萬"},{"start":582.156,"end":586.856,"text":"那有人跟我講說得標廠商叫普華律師事務所是嗎?是普華嗎?"},{"start":589.472,"end":618.125,"text":"是普華嘛對普華裡面有一個合夥人叫賴芳玉只是跟民進黨很多立委是好朋友那再來我們來看一下普華最近的案子他得到113年到114年18個月1500萬的打黃牛辦公室然後他112年也有得到文化部一個法律諮詢服務案148萬這讓我覺得非常奇怪你知道嗎就是我們已經"},{"start":619.651,"end":646.649,"text":"為了我們已經有了這個法律諮詢的服務案然後我們打黃油又要再找別的律師來諮詢這已經有一個統整的法律諮詢案然後針對特定項目又要再委託別的法律顧問來諮詢我覺得文化部是不是真的錢很多如果錢真的這麼多的話可不可以把一部分的錢撥到文化資產那邊去就是說我們現在文化資產很缺費用啊"},{"start":647.689,"end":665.61,"text":"因為今天時間關係我先把這些問題點出來就像說事後部長可不可以了解一下因為你也是剛上任好不好謝謝委員提這個問題我們來因為感覺文化部錢真的非常多可以這樣花的文化部錢不多啦我覺得這些就很多我剛剛隨便念就很多嘛"},{"start":667.732,"end":678.822,"text":"關鍵是第一個幫人民省錢你把那些標案審視一下第二打黃標問題還是要做不是說只是把錢八包出去了因為劉德華演唱會就要來了好我們會寫一個報告謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154506","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154506","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdee7848a1032284fe27d0a78c1009ae5e47ffec24bc1a8f64ad81c9f73d0fe0115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:48:40 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有請這個部長好 有請部長吳委員你好那個部長好那個這個"},{"start":27.321,"end":31.872,"text":"部長看到我今天這個標題你有什麼感想?"},{"start":35.412,"end":58.478,"text":"文化亂了套我覺得蠻容易亂了套還容易亂套因為我覺得文化是一個太複雜的一個太複雜的問題那個大家都在談經期講但是我也有出席啦去看啦那但是呢我覺得辦的事情還是主辦單位還是很辛苦啦大家這個但是呢我現在舉這個"},{"start":60.681,"end":77.52,"text":"那天晚上有位大陸藝人高杰講了一句大家晚上好然後就被出征了這個部長覺得這是這樣子是什麼回事"},{"start":78.621,"end":101.758,"text":"我覺得我跟高杰還蠻熟的他是台灣藝人專門演黑道他那天講大家晚上好的時候我也有一點覺得他怎麼會講這個因為他以前是跟我們那個時代的人那個時代真的不會講大家晚上好可見的這個語言的傳播透過網路他其實很嚴重那至於你說他講這個對不對我覺得只有一種"},{"start":102.879,"end":127.77,"text":"聽得舒不舒服,感覺好不好而已,我覺得好像沒有對不對啦,因為語言這個東西,我上次也講過這也是一個問題啦,人都會這樣子嘛,你到一個地方開久了,你就會有那些的口音啦但是我們現在好像把這些,因為這都是中文,很容易這樣子混的,大家會不會搞得太緊張了?"},{"start":129.817,"end":137.603,"text":"問候一下也需要出征嗎?你覺得台灣是怎麼回事?台灣的文化是哪裡出問題?這個部分我覺得"},{"start":141.977,"end":156.264,"text":"我覺得臺灣某方面大家好像蠻對立的就是那個對立到我覺得蠻讓別人不太好會嚇一跳的結果就像我這次進去講如果是一個天安門事件在臺灣現在講話很緊張你知道嗎真的是講話隨時對很緊張我覺得我們"},{"start":165.729,"end":189.416,"text":"民主運動當中政治是戒嚴的但是現在變成文化戒嚴文化戒嚴我們真的是一個文化戒嚴的國家動不動就思想犯就出征人家就質疑忠誠質疑對方的忠誠包括你講的語言包括你講的台灣這個台灣是一個文化大國台灣是一個充滿本來文化是我們的優勢"},{"start":190.896,"end":208.784,"text":"現在文化互相殘殺然後互相指責對方互相戴帽子這文化部應該要好好的來想辦法解決這個問題啦我不是說這是文化部的問題啦但是要解決誰來解決當然還是要靠文化部啦文化部絕對不能在天流家畜啦然後再來看"},{"start":210.783,"end":236.574,"text":"這裡是哪裡?這不是日本喔?這是台灣喔?我們台灣每次到溫泉祭的時候那個意象表演一定會穿和服、穿彩目機對不對?然後跳了這些這是什麼?這個魅力嗎?還是說溫泉只能是有日本的文化?台灣溫泉這麼的發達為什麼不能有台灣自己的概念?"},{"start":238.871,"end":239.754,"text":"這個問題我覺得問得很好"},{"start":242.645,"end":269.071,"text":"台灣是一個被動的在這個這個歷史上都是被動的被別人統治那只要統治50年他的文化就進來了包括語言包括服裝包括一切還有現在是世界化大家年輕人是看看網路看日劇看韓劇他會朝著流行去這件事情說起來是蠻複雜的所以怎麼看兩件事情那邊講一句文物晚上好就不行"},{"start":269.611,"end":271.135,"text":"這是什麼?文化是這樣的選擇性跟對立嗎?"},{"start":279.198,"end":303.212,"text":"您的問題非常好因為我覺得文化基本上應該是認同吧就是譬如說我認同這個東西我就覺得它非常好我不認同它我就覺得非常不好所以我覺得現在這樣子啦我自己的比如說像日本啦日本的是葫蘆吞草的文化啦它不管像我們現在包括哇你用這個比如說大魚治水啦他們在問說大魚是誰啦"},{"start":305.974,"end":330.41,"text":"大禹如果你不知道這個故事你講這個成語就沒意義嘛所以當他在運用這語言的時候一定要了解他的歷史那我們現在在排除他的歷史的時候連我們的語言都會被排除這會造成很多的衝突啦那所以呢通常怎麼處理這種文化問題像日本他就是土藻他不管是哪一國的文化他都混混吞藻吞下去"},{"start":331.511,"end":342.743,"text":"不用擔心這種事情文化呢會自己消化消化是和庶民生活會被留下來有的就會被排泄掉"},{"start":344.07,"end":370.798,"text":"他自然會這樣子我們國家不要那麼的緊張好不好我很怕什麼文化入侵很怕什麼所以這邊要戒嚴這邊要擋住門這邊要講這話然後很多的事情包容一個多元文化臺灣應該包容多元文化我不管是怎麼樣文化特別跟我們極大關係這麼密切的中文文化你如果再去排擠它的話稍微一個字眼的話我們自己會自己會業業那個啦好"},{"start":373.482,"end":373.993,"text":"接下來呢﹖"},{"start":375.538,"end":376.118,"text":"臺灣的多元文化"},{"start":405.758,"end":415.956,"text":"人家不把我們看在眼裡了啦台灣已經變成文化小國了啦我們本來是一個文化大國變成文化小國啦這是怎麼造成的"},{"start":417.079,"end":445.947,"text":"部長你覺得我覺得我們自己本身忽略了自己文化的重要還有在政策上比韓國晚了覺醒韓國從1998年開始金大中上台他就知道文化立國直接立法在法律上直接立法投入很多的錢那是1998年到了2000年之後韓流就起來了然後2003年有一個導演叫李昌東被聘為文化部長"},{"start":446.747,"end":475.613,"text":"在他手上把整個行流做起來這個部長我覺得我們這個當然我們是自己就是文化政治化文化為政治服務政治大力的干預到過去當國民黨時代的時候當然是文化的民進黨起來的時候也是一樣統治文化然後排組其他都互相的對立了其實這個搞的其實這才是最大根本原因以前也沒有說政府這麼多的補助現在也沒有說比以前補助的少以前為什麼這麼的"},{"start":477.034,"end":490.809,"text":"現在不僅不補助 現在還會追殺你知道嗎現在還會追殺異己耶這才是文化墮落最大的原因啦文化墮落最大的原因只容許跟自己意識概念相同的文化"},{"start":491.51,"end":492.471,"text":"因為台灣找不到自己現在用原住民最安全"},{"start":518.291,"end":532.104,"text":"對不對?原住民是最安全的意向你用任何的圖像下來都會引起內部的一種糾紛包括以前連小學踢踐子都會被指證這個媚中啊哎呀一幫大隊隨便的亂指責亂那個這一點啊"},{"start":536.548,"end":551.37,"text":"這一點我很期待 因為我知道你是一個文化人 真正的文化人就給我們委員解釋一下 文化部差不多至少這10年他在補助的時候他不會看這個 他請來一群委員 完全不會看這個"},{"start":552.592,"end":572.329,"text":"送東西來的是藍還是綠還是白然後它裡面是講原住民還是還是有講過去的一些我們講比較中國的元素或者原住民元素我跟委員保證台灣的電影跟影視為什麼這幾年終於比較起來就是因為在審查制度上我們蠻公平的這點因為我當過評審委員這點請委員相信我們"},{"start":576.853,"end":590.589,"text":"我相信你啦我相信你是一個文化人我們繼續在這方面努力啦來端正這個給文化人尊嚴給文化人台灣真的很可惜台灣是一個文化非常文化跟金融一樣"},{"start":591.55,"end":591.67,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":624.848,"end":624.868,"text":"謝謝吳春"}]}},{"id":"154503","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154503","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdd270d818322be73427d0a78c1009ae5ee8e3eb0bf88d021c628b53a5dd7052865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"11:36:52 - 11:48:34","影片長度":"00:11:42","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:36:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:48:34+08:00","duration":702,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":702,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（11時36分）謝謝主席。請文化部李遠部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：陳委員，你好！"],["陳委員秀寳：部長早安！部長，蔡英文總統曾經說過，如果沒有當年823的勝利，就沒有今天的臺灣。請問部長，您肯定這樣的說法嗎？"],["李部長遠：當然、當然。"],["陳委員秀寳：肯定喔！"],["李部長遠：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：專家更還原了1958年823砲戰的歷史，是因為臺灣、美國及日本聯合對抗共軍來取得勝利，本席認為歷史可以原諒，但是不可以忘記，我們持續努力還原歷史的真相，推動轉型正義，祈願我們臺灣世世代代的子民不但要瞭解真實的歷史，更要彰顯民主自由，高舉人權正義，因為這是臺灣人堅定的信仰，也是臺灣人的根本。","但是前幾天本席看到一則新聞覺得很難過，也非常擔心，曾經參與戰役唯一現存的功勳艦，就是中海軍艦，長期閒置在旗津的碼頭，在各方的爭取下，文化部指定中海艦是重要的古物，海軍也編列了7,200萬的維護及調查經費，但是國防部在上週向立院提交的預算解凍報告裡面顯示，海軍說，如果仍然沒有地方政府接收、活化再利用，將請文化部解除中海艦的古物列管。","我想請教部長，這是我們文資保存的作法嗎？本席真的很擔心，文化部是可以這樣做、會這樣子做？你們真的會解除列管嗎？"],["李部長遠：不會、不會。"],["陳委員秀寳：不會喔！"],["李部長遠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實對於過去我們這些文物的保存，我們一直覺得，我們把它指定了之後，後續到底我們如何實質地落實在這些文物保存上面，很多民眾都非常地關心。中海艦未來如果被拆除，不但是浪費執行的預算，也是顯示文化部沒有做文資保存的決心，所以這個部分是不是請文化部跟我們海軍還有地方政府儘快研議出一個方案來做處理？部長，您說。"],["李部長遠：是，一定會。"],["陳委員秀寳：那你們有沒有一個怎樣的期程、自己本身的規劃？"],["李部長遠：期程我想問一下文資局局長。"],["陳局長濟民：委員，在過程當中，我們跟海軍也都保持密切的聯繫，包括在經費的補助上面，也都有編列一定的預算，後續海軍一定要負責，依照文資法裡面，它是所有人，必須要負起保存修復的責任，文化部會在相關專業……"],["陳委員秀寳：對，當然海軍是保管者，是所有人，但是對於地方政府的協調，我們文化部也要有作為……"],["陳局長濟民：有，我們會來協助海軍跟地方政府……"],["陳委員秀寳：好，這個請儘快，而且有相關消息的時候，也請告訴我辦公室你們相關的進度。"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實文化資產保存法實施四十多年來，民間甚至戲稱文化資產是修一個壞一個，有時候甚至會出現專業者之間會互相批評，因為大家的論點或想法是不太一樣；那有一些主持修復的專家、官員們會把提供意見的民眾視為是妨礙修復的鬧事者，所以彼此之間會形成對立跟對抗。我想請教部長，您真的覺得對文資修復有意見的民間人士，真的一定是恐怖的鬧事者嗎？或者這是一個棒打出頭鳥的概念，沒有辦法解決事情、沒有辦法解決問題，只是想解決提出問題的人，對於文資修復相關的意見，我們去整合、去充分溝通，不是文資局本來就應該要做的嗎？"],["李部長遠：是！委員，你問的問題非常好，這有兩個層面，其實早期臺灣比較沒有文資概念的時候，都是靠少數人站出來去呼籲，譬如說我們現在看到臺北幾個最大的園區，都是靠少數人提出來的，因為當時沒有文資概念，所以第一個層面，我們不能夠忽略所有對文資有研究者的意見；第二個層面，如果換到文化部去做這些事情的時候，就會碰到一些法律問題，因為它不會那麼單純的只是保留，它可能有都更的問題、有土地的問題，還有擁有人的問題，所以我們會儘量去溝通，這是我們的責任，所以我不會認為他們是恐怖份子。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長，您也這樣肯定願意提供相關訊息、相關資料、相關意見的人，其實對於文資保存他就是有這樣的關心，而且他本身有這樣的記憶，或者有這樣的意見可以提供我們來協助文資的修復。本席剛有提到充分地溝通，其實是文資局本來就應該要做的，文化資產的再利用有時候會面臨一些功能性的需求要進行調整，目的就是為了健全軟硬體相關的功能，讓建築能夠更符合現代需求，但建築物本身的新建、增建、改建、修繕、遷移、拆除或其他外形及內部變更，都是經過主管機關的審查同意之後才會辦理。但是看一下最近的例子，臺中的歷史建築大屯郡役所跟臺北的國立歷史博物館在修繕工程中，明明也經過相關的文資審議，但是還是遭受爭議。還有剛才多位委員非常關心的鹿港龍山寺修復的爭議，我光是在教育及文化委員會質詢、追蹤關於龍山寺的修復，也追蹤了很多次，整個工程的延宕在鹿港人眼中看起來是非常地焦急，因為我們意見無法整合，不管是地方的意見沒有辦法進來，或者是得標廠商受到的為難跟委屈，這個部分我們都沒有妥善地處理，我想請教在文化資產保存的過程中，如何能夠做到即使不能人人滿意，但是都可以接受，文化部在這麼多次的爭議之後，有沒有正視這個問題？你們如何來處理？"],["李部長遠：因為這個標準真的很難訂，譬如說，你修到一個程度，地方不滿意，可是我們覺得又能符合，這個標準很難訂。我想是不是可以請文資局局長回答？"],["陳委員秀寳：好，局長。"],["陳局長濟民：我想這個大概就是一個溝通的過程，包括在審議會、公聽會裡面，像修復再利用裡面，假如曾經修復它，必須要辦理公聽會或者說明會，我想那個會議是凝聚共識啦！"],["陳委員秀寳：所以我會一直強調，就是意見的整合跟充分溝通，充分溝通真的、真的非常地重要。這個部分，我也希望你們在這麼多次的經驗之後，你們面對文資保存的部分，你們要去正視在會議上充分溝通的重要性，而且將來遇到這樣的問題都一定要廣納各方的意見。","接下來我想請教部長，文化部說根據產業調查研究成果，在廣徵產官學研的意見，於2022年以高於一般公共工程的工匠薪資，制定傳統匠師每日最低薪資參考基準是3,922元，使第一線的傳統匠師受重視、有使命感，並希望吸引更多的年輕人、優秀的傳統匠師來投入這個領域。但是我想請教部長，在所有文資修復的案件中，每天最低薪的參考基準，傳統匠師是不是真的都可以領到？文化部有沒有認真地去查核過，得標的廠商是不是真的都照規定？"],["李部長遠：我們也知道這個問題，因為最低薪資3,922元，可是他一個禮拜只工作兩、三天，我們在今年年底會讓這部分落實、讓他們可以領到，甚至於我們最近在研擬薪資的提高還有分級制，因為我們文化部有警覺到這個問題非常嚴重。"],["陳委員秀寳：對，我看了一下你們的招標規範，其實沒有辦法嚇阻所謂借牌登記的疑慮，我們要保障傳統匠師每天最低薪資的基準，其實很難達成，我希望文化部對於這個事情，既然你已經有感受到這是有問題的，你們也要研議一個相關的方案，真正落實來保障這些傳統匠師。"],["李部長遠：是，會。"],["陳委員秀寳：而且本席認為除了薪資之外，讓第一線的傳統匠師感受到被重視、有使命感，讓年輕的人才願意投入，也應該要有一些相對的獎勵、鼓勵，相對於臺灣技職教育有全國技能競賽，讓技職人有這樣的榮耀感，但是我們文資修復的部分，文化部有沒有辦法研議傳統匠師這些競技的競賽活動，或者一些相關的作法，讓一些願意投入的傳統匠師，他們能夠靠著自己的技能、靠著自己的技術來取得這樣的榮耀，有沒有辦法研議相關的競賽？"],["李部長遠：有！我們正在做，就是要把優良傳統匠師納入國家文化資產保存的獎項，提高他的尊榮感，因為我們也辦理修復技術全國技能大賽，吸引年輕人投入，非常高興委員提到這些，剛好就是我們正在做的，因為我們覺得年輕人如果能夠投入這個行業，讓薪水夠他生活，他有榮耀感，這是非常重要的。"],["陳委員秀寳：對，部長剛才也點出了，除了足夠的薪資來維持他的生活之外，他本身對這一份工作是有使命的、是有榮耀感。"],["李部長遠：對，這個行業。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為其實傳統匠師的培育、養成對整個文資修復的重要性，我想你們都知道，我們需要有這樣的人才，而且隨著時間的推移，需要修復的保存古物、文物越來越多，也越來越急迫，所以對於鼓勵人才這部分也希望文化部能夠再多做努力。","接下來，我想請教一下，關於國立臺灣大學創立近百年，但是監委范巽綠的調查報告，他調查發現臺大未有校園文化資產分級、分類、分期修復整體藍圖，文化資產圮毀嚴重，公有文化資產容積移轉規制尚未健全，而且其中臺大一號館的屋齡達92年，雖然是在2002年有列冊追蹤，但是沒有審慎地修繕，已經函請臺大及文化部檢討改進。這邊我要請教部長，文化部如何明確地規範文資執行的事項，並且建立通報系統，讓公有建造物的所有或管理單位有所憑依？還是局長您要回答？"],["李部長遠：局長你來回答。"],["陳局長濟民：超過50年，依照文資法第十五條，它必須有一定的機制，要通報主管機關，如果是市定古蹟，或是歷史建築要通報臺北市政府，然後要經過文化資產調查評估，它有一定的程序。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們是有這樣的程序沒錯，但是我們如何明確地規範，或者如何落實相關的通報機制？"],["陳局長濟民：有的，我們現在跟各縣市政府也已經有進行一些聯繫，要建立一些管道，尤其是大家提到會有誤拆的這種可能，就是在縣市地方應該要有一個橫向聯繫……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以文資局現在正在做？"],["陳局長濟民：正在做。"],["陳委員秀寳：正在跟地方政府聯繫中，這個部分我也請你如果達到一定的進度，提供一份報告給我辦公室好嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：可以。"],["陳委員秀寳：以上，謝謝。"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員，部長請回。","接下來請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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方政府接管、接收、活化再利用將請文化部解除中海建的古物列管我想請教部長這是我們文資保存的做法嗎本席真的很擔心文化部是可以這樣做會這樣子做你們真的會解除列管嗎"},{"start":94.014,"end":117.899,"text":"不會不會因為其實對於我們過去這些文物的保存我們一直覺得說我們有把它指定了之後但是後續到底我們如何實質的落實在這些文物保存上面其實很多民眾都非常的關心那中海建未來如果被拆除不但是浪費執行的預算也是顯示文化部我們沒有做文資保存的決心"},{"start":118.479,"end":135.486,"text":"那所以這個部分是不是要請文化部跟我們海軍這邊還有地方政府你們盡快研議出一個方案來做處理部長您說是 一定會那有沒有你們有沒有一個怎樣的期程自己本身的規劃期程我要問一下這個文智局局長"},{"start":137.403,"end":155.018,"text":"在過程當中我們都是跟海軍也都保持密切的包括在經費的補助上面也都有編列一定的預算那未來就是後續海軍一定要拿起他負責依照文資法裡面他是所有人必須要負起這個保存修復的責任文化部會在這個相關專業"},{"start":156.459,"end":157.779,"text":"其實《文化資產保存法》實施40多年來民間甚至是戲稱說文化資產是修一個壞一個"},{"start":181.087,"end":206.426,"text":"有時候甚至會出現說專業者之間會互相批評因為大家的論點或想法是不太一樣那有一些主持修復的專家官員們會把提供意見的民眾視為是妨礙修復的鬧事者所以彼此之間會形成對立跟對抗那我想請教部長您真的覺得說對文資修復有意見的民間人士真的一定是恐怖的鬧事者嗎"},{"start":206.886,"end":206.906,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":223.311,"end":249.472,"text":"是委員你問的問題非常好有兩個層面其實早期台灣比較沒有文資概念的時候都是靠少數人站出來去呼籲說比如說我們現在看到台北好多那個那個幾個最大的園區都是靠少數人提出來的因為當時沒有文資概念所以第一個層面我們不能夠忽略所有對文資有研究的人的意見第二個層面就是"},{"start":250.632,"end":269.7,"text":"如果換到文化部去做這些事情的時候我們就碰到有一些法律問題因為他不會那麼單純的只要保留他可能有都更的問題他有那個土地的問題還有這個擁有人的問題所以我們會盡量溝通是我們的責任所以我不會認為他們是恐怖分子"},{"start":272.87,"end":293.369,"text":"謝謝部長李念這樣子肯定就是說願意提供相關訊息相關資料相關意見人其實對於文資保存他就是有這樣的關心而且可能有他本身有這樣的記憶或有這樣子的意見可以來提供我們來協助文資的修復但本席剛有提到就是說充分的溝通其實就是文資局這邊本來就應該要做的"},{"start":294.21,"end":313.977,"text":"文化資產的再利用有時候會面臨一些功能性的需求要進行調整那目的就是為了讓建權軟硬體相關的功能讓建築能夠更符合現代需求但建築物本身的新建、增建、改建、修繕、遷移或是拆除或其他外型內部的變更都是經過主管機關的審查同意之後才會辦理"},{"start":317.378,"end":336.171,"text":"但是看一下最近的例子臺中的歷史建築大屯俊藝所跟臺北的國立歷史博物館在修站工程中明明也經過了相關的文資的審議但是還是遭受爭議還有就是剛才也多位委員非常關心的我們鹿港龍山市的這個修復的這個爭議"},{"start":337.372,"end":357.851,"text":"我公司在我們教育委員會質詢追蹤關於龍山市這個修復也追蹤了很多次那整個工程的延宕在鹿港人眼中看起來是非常的焦急因為我們意見無法整合那不管是地方的意見沒有辦法進來或是說得標廠商他受到的為難跟委屈這個部分我們都沒有妥善的處理所以這邊我想請教"},{"start":359.392,"end":382.653,"text":"在文化資產保存的這個過程裡面如何能夠做到即使不能人人滿意但是都可以接受文化部在這麼多次的爭議之後有沒有正視這個問題你們如何來處理因為這個標準真的很難定比如說你修到的程度地方不滿意可是我們覺得又符合這個這個標準很難定我想是不是可以請文字局的局長回答好 局長"},{"start":384.364,"end":386.786,"text":"所以我會一直強調就是意見的整合跟充分溝通充分溝通真的真的非常的重要"},{"start":404.198,"end":416.889,"text":"那這個部分呢我也希望說你們在這麼多次的經驗之後呢我們面對這樣子的文資的這個保存的部分在會議上充分溝通的重要性你們要去正視而且將來遇到這樣的問題都一定要廣納各方的意見那接下來我想請教部長"},{"start":421.974,"end":440.261,"text":"文化部說根據產業調查研究的成果．在廣正產生學院的意見．2022年以高於一般公共工程的工匠薪資．制定傳統匠師每日最低薪資參考基準是3922元．使第一線的傳統匠師受重視有使命感．並希望吸引更多的年輕人．傳統優秀的傳統匠師來投入這個領域．"},{"start":444.443,"end":456.637,"text":"但是我想請教部長在所有文資修復的案件中每天最低薪資的參考基準傳統教師是不是真的都可以領導?文化部有沒有認真的去查核過?得標的廠商是不是真的都照規定?"},{"start":458.388,"end":477.04,"text":"我們也知道這個問題因為最低薪資3922可是他一個禮拜只工作兩三天我們在今年年底會讓這個東西落實到讓他們可以領到甚至我們最近在研擬就是薪資的提高還有分級制因為這個問題我們文化部有警覺到非常嚴重"},{"start":478.189,"end":500.56,"text":"對 因為其實我看了一下你們的招標規範其實沒有辦法嚇阻所謂借牌登記的這個疑慮那我們要保障這個傳統將士每天有這個最低薪資的這個基準其實很難達成所以我希望說文化部這邊你們對這個事情既然你已經有感受到說其實這個是有問題的你們也要研議一個相關的方案來真正的落實來保障這些傳統的將士而且呢 本席認為說除了薪資之外"},{"start":504.842,"end":527.614,"text":"讓第一線的傳統教師感受到備重是有使命感那年輕的人才願意投入呢也應該有一些相對的一些獎勵一些鼓勵那相對說我們台灣技職教育它有全國技能競賽那這些技職人有這樣的榮耀感但是我們文資修復的部分我們文化部有沒有辦法研議傳統教師的這些競技的競賽活動或者一些相關的一些來"},{"start":529.795,"end":529.815,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":550.418,"end":565.998,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":566.198,"end":576.732,"text":"對,那個部長林漾點出了就是說,足夠的薪資來維持他的生活之外,他本身對這一份工作是有使命的,是有人要感的。因為其實傳統教師的培育養成,對我們整個的文資修復的重要性,我想你們都知道,我們需要有這樣的人才。"},{"start":584.642,"end":584.662,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":601.794,"end":606.88,"text":"國立臺灣大學創立近百年但是被我們監委翻訊息調查的這個報告他調查發現說臺大未有校園文化資產分級分類分級修復的整體藍圖"},{"start":615.93,"end":622.474,"text":"公有文化資產的疲惫嚴重公有文化資產容積轉移轉的規制尚未健全而且其中臺大一號館的屋齡達92年雖然是在2002年有列冊追蹤但是沒有損勝的修繕已經喊請臺大及文化部檢討改進那這邊我要請教部長文化部如何明確的規範呢文資執行的事項並且建立通報系統讓公有的建造物的所有或管理單位有所平一"},{"start":646.872,"end":648.073,"text":"我們是有這樣子的程序沒錯但是我們如何明確的規範或者說如何落實這些相關的通報機制"},{"start":669.948,"end":697.831,"text":"有的 這個現在目前一個我們現在跟各縣市政府也已經也去跟他們的有進行的一些聯繫要建立一些尤其是這個尤其所謂的所謂的大家提到就會有誤猜的方式這種可能就是在地方縣市地方應該要有一個橫向聯繫所以文資局現在正在做正在跟地方政府這個聯繫中那這個部分我也請你如果有一定的進度的時候你一份報告給我辦公室好嗎可以好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":700.319,"end":701.003,"text":"好 謝謝陳雪秀寶委員"}]}},{"id":"154498","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154498","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd080148958083d084cb3f5941fe168625e8e3eb0bf88d021c54de318ebac86ee55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:25:33 - 11:37:47","影片長度":"00:12:14","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:25:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:37:47+08:00","duration":734,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":860,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時25分）謝謝主席，我請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：王委員好。"],["王委員世堅：我們壽險業資產總額已經高達36兆，而他們可運用的資金32兆當中，現在照這個分配比，竟然國外投資占了70%！你看一下表格的金額，高達22兆、69.7%。當然這不能單獨怪你，可是我們先比較一下國外各國在壽險業海外投資的部分占多少，就舉對岸中國為例好了，中國壽險業只有2%耶！2%的資金到國外。韓國不到10%，是8.3%；日本21.6%；美國12%。獨獨臺灣正需要公共建設，正需要大家投入臺灣、對我們國家有信心的時候，我們竟然放任最大的資金──壽險業的資金高達70%、22兆到國外去投資！","在座各位都是金融專家，你們很清楚，國外這些投資最大的風險，第一個是戰爭；第二個是匯率；第三，連他們的利率，表面上高的地方，但你賺了它的利息、賠了本金。我現在簡單講俄國就好，在俄國我們竟然有8家壽險業持有它1,380億債券！好了，這1,380億通通暴險，怎麼講？俄烏戰爭還在打。不講這個戰爭，壽險業說不知道兩年前他們會打仗，那你至少要知道俄國那麼極權的國家，在世界版圖裡面它是軸心國，拜託！這些壽險業唯利是圖，利率高就去！他們不但價值理念跟我們自由世界的國家不同，現在它有戰爭，說翻臉就翻臉。我光指現在，這8家有72張投資型保單，現在已經被通知啦！這只是冰山一小小角，有11億已經通知說這個到時候要逾期，踩雷了，說要等到解禁才能收回。所以光這11億，有8,000萬資金要損失掉，我們的保戶根本拿不到錢。這些壽險業就是這樣，「用別人的拳頭拇舂石獅」！賺是它要賺，賠是保戶賠，就是這樣！這8家不只這11億，11億是被通知到的，因為馬上就暴險，後續這1,380億，彭主委，我本來一上台想問你是哪8家，後來我想想，其實最主要不是你造成的啦，是你的前任黃天牧主委！他在2020年的時候就說壽險業海外投資暴險金額比率過高，應該要降低。說要降，結果4年來越降越高，從他4年前上任時的64%拿到海外去，到現在高達70%！當然，他卸任了，而且他過去也有一些好的表現，我就不提他了，但是在你任內，尤其壽險是你的專業，我希望你拿出你的專業、堅持你的風骨，我認為壽險資金投資海外要大幅降低！當然，財政部也要配合。部長，你坐在位子上聽就好，財政部應該協調各部會，針對我們重大的公共建設、需要資金的公共建設，引領各部會趕快來跟財政部協商，由財政部幫他們發行公債嘛！不是嗎？","這麼多年來，財政部在蔡總統任內代為發行的乙類公債有7大項，都是很有意義的公共建設，從桃園航空城、國道建設到高速鐵路，這些都非常好，自償性也很高，可是這7檔加起來才1,500億，占不到1%！天啊！這麼努力之下喔！","壽險業又說了，他們說我們國內的債券市場太小了、我們利率太低了，他們是為了保障保戶的收益。主委，這些話我就用4個字來形容──鬼話連篇！他們說要保障保戶的收益，欸！你在任何時間點賣的保單都是以當年、當時我們國內的利率去計算期望值的，所以不要在那邊「騙痟的」啦！以現在的利率計算的保單期望值，那它賠什麼賠？這10年來、這20年來都以各該當時的利率計算不是嗎？然後他們還額外賺什麼？他們還賺國內這麼多不動產的投資、這些不動產的增值。我相信這些經過詳細的計算後，主委，你下去計算一下，我有初步的一些概算，我認為這些壽險業的業主心思都不單純，很邪惡啦！","第一點，他們對建設我們臺灣、建設我們國家沒有信心，否則怎麼會說國內債券市場規模太小？我就講我們國家發行的公債就好了啊！國家發行的公債數十年來超過10兆，到現在我們國債（公債）的餘額還有5.8兆喔！那你至少先拿個10%，32兆拿個10%，用3兆2來買國債總可以吧！可是它不！他們不買！這胡說八道嘛！不但帶頭對建設我們國家沒信心，第二點，還坑殺保戶，他們去國外利率高的地方，賺的時候它賺，現在賠了，我剛剛講俄國現在暴險了！已經暴險的部分保戶就要賠7,000萬，光11億就要賠7,000萬，統統賠保戶的！後續它還有1,380億，這8家！所以我希望你私下告訴我是哪8家，我們一起想想辦法看怎麼整他們啦！幫保戶討回公道嘛！可不可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們來看一下資料，如果可以提供的話，再提供給委員參考。"],["王委員世堅：表示你有資料嘛！不是嗎？你剛剛說看一下資料再來決定。好啦！因為你剛上任不久，我對你不苛責。我是對你不苛責，但是抱著期許！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：我期許你對這些惡劣的壽險公司能夠拿出風骨跟膽識。不是每一家都惡劣喔！就是已經變成金融怪獸的這幾家。我剛剛講至少有8家是非常、非常惡劣！我有計算，也希望你下去計算一下，針對他們講的這些謬論，看看用什麼方式去反駁。它說要保障保戶的收益，所以必須到海外去，海外利率才高，我剛剛跟你講了嘛！利率高，你賺了人家利率，它從匯率把你整回來。第二點，遇到戰爭怎麼辦？第三點是最重要的，我們國家、我們的公共建設需要資金，要帶頭對我們國家有信心，要建設我們臺灣才對！不是嗎？我們有那麼多的建設需要，現在除了大型的公共建設，另類的公共建設也很多啊！社會住宅、長照、社福機構，這些也都有他們的自償性，都足以讓壽險的資金回流去投資，不是嗎？但是他們置若罔聞、視若無睹，就是這些業者這麼惡劣的行徑！","所以，彭主委，因為時間到了，我對你有期許啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：我對部長也有期許，雖然比較低。","但是我希望你針對我講的，做一份簡單扼要的說明，私下告訴我怎麼來處理，好不好？一定要降低這些壽險業海外投資的占比，占到70%，已經到了非常惡劣、離譜的地步了。好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝，謝謝委員，謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在請央行楊總裁，還有彭主委和莊部長到前面這邊來。我們現在休息。","休息（11時37分）","繼續開會（12時3分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。下一位質詢請陳玉珍陳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大\n參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員\n會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢；二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.8915937500000001,"end":2.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.49471875,"end":2.8153437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.30471875,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.992218750000001,"end":5.7009687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.075968750000001,"end":9.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.375343750000003,"end":11.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.235968750000001,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.851593750000003,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.41659375,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.27284375,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.981593750000002,"end":25.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.05221875,"end":27.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.621593750000002,"end":29.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.34284375,"end":31.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.98784375,"end":39.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.969718750000006,"end":43.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.289718750000006,"end":47.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.98971875,"end":49.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.5422187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這1380億通通曝險怎麼講 俄烏戰爭還在打那 不講說這個戰爭好了 售險業說 我不知道兩年前他們會打仗那你至少要知道 俄國那麼極權的國家"},{"start":165.407,"end":191.328,"text":"在世界的版圖裡面他是軸心國欸拜託這些壽險業唯利是圖啊利率高啦就去啦好啦他們不但價值理念跟我們自由世界國家不同好啦現在他有戰爭說翻臉就翻臉我光指現在"},{"start":193.43,"end":219.409,"text":"光現在這8家有72張投資型保單現在已經被通知了這只是冰山一小小角11億已經通知說這個到時候要預期啦踩雷啦"},{"start":220.618,"end":239.005,"text":"所以要等到解禁才能收尾所以啊光這11億有八千萬的資金要損失掉我們的保護根本拿不到錢所以這些受險業就是這樣啊賺他要賺賠保護賠就是這樣這八家不只這11億喔"},{"start":251.723,"end":275.14,"text":"這11億是被通知到的因為馬上曝險的後續再1380億那個彭主委我本來一上台想問你說哪8家啦後來我想想其實最主要不是你造成的啦你的前任黃天慕主委他在2020年的時候"},{"start":277.042,"end":301.948,"text":"他就說啊 受選業海外投資這樣的曝險過高金額比例過高啦 他說要降結果他從當年啦 欸 說要降這四年來越降越高從四年前上任的時候64%拿到海外去現在高達70%"},{"start":306.349,"end":335.641,"text":"當然啦他卸任啦他過去也有一些好的表現啦我就不提他啦但是我希望在你的任內尤其受險是你的專業我希望你拿出你的專業堅持你的風骨我認為受險資金投資海外要大幅降低當然財政部也要配合"},{"start":337.25,"end":348.814,"text":"那個部長你就在位子上聽著就好啦財政部應該協調各部會把我們重大的公共建設需要資金的公共建設引領各部會他們趕快跟財政部來協商財政部你幫他們發行公債嘛不是嗎"},{"start":361.55,"end":385.882,"text":"有啦 這麼多年來 蔡總統的任內 有我們去推了這些大概財政部代為發行的這些以內公債有七大項啦 都很有意義的公共建設從桃園航空城 我們國道建設到高速鐵路哇 這些都非常好 自償性也很高"},{"start":386.963,"end":394.909,"text":"可是這7黨加起來才1500億1500億占不到1%天啊這麼努力之下喔那受險業又說啦說啊我們國內財政市場太小啦我們利率太低啦他們是為了保障"},{"start":412.722,"end":413.082,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":444.824,"end":455.996,"text":"一、現在的利率算的保單的期望值那它賠什麼賠這10年來、這20年來都以各該當時的利率"},{"start":457.25,"end":476.562,"text":"不是嗎?然後他額外還賺什麼?他們還賺國內這麼多不動產的投資這些不動產的增值我相信這些經過詳細的計算後那個主委你下去計算一下我有初步的一些概算我認為這些壽險業齁這些業主心思都不單純很邪惡"},{"start":484.841,"end":506.285,"text":"第一點他們對我們建設我們台灣建設我們國家沒有信心啊否則你怎麼會說我們國內證券規模太小我就講我們國家發行的公債就好啊國家發行的公債數十年來超過10兆到現在我們國債的餘額公債喔還有5.8兆5.8兆啊"},{"start":514.656,"end":523.003,"text":"那你至少能先拿個10%、32兆拿個10%、3兆2來買買國債總可以吧?他不!他那不買!這胡說八道嘛!不但!帶頭!對!建設!我們國家沒信心!第二點!康沙保護!"},{"start":539.042,"end":548.387,"text":"他去國外利率高的地方賺他賺現在賠他我剛剛講的俄國這個現在普選啦普選啦已經普選的部分保護就要賠7千萬光11億就要賠7千萬通通賠保護的然後後續他還有1380億這8家所以我希望你私下告訴我哪8家啦"},{"start":568.905,"end":596.722,"text":"我們一起想想辦法看怎麼整他們啦幫保護討回公道嘛可不可以呃我們來看一下資料我們再再來如果可以提供我們就提供給委員參考啊表示案例有資料嘛不是嗎你剛剛說看一下資料再來決定好啦你的因為你剛上任不久我對你不苛責我是對你不苛責但是抱著期許謝謝謝謝委員我期許"},{"start":598.171,"end":617.279,"text":"你能夠拿出風骨跟膽識對!這些惡劣的授權公司不是每一家都惡劣喔就是已經變成金融怪獸的這幾家我剛剛講至少有8家是非常非常惡劣那"},{"start":619.775,"end":634.894,"text":"我有計算啦我希望你下去計算一下就是他們講的這些謬論用什麼方式反駁他他說保障保護的收益所以必須到海外去海外啊利率才高我剛剛跟你講嘛"},{"start":636.211,"end":655.726,"text":"欸!利率高!你賺了人家利率,他從匯率把你整回來。第二點,遇到戰爭,那怎麼辦?第三點,最重要的,我們國家我們的公共建設需要資金,要帶頭對我們國家有信心,要建設我們台灣才對,不是嗎?"},{"start":657.099,"end":684.715,"text":"我們有那麼多的建設需要現在除了大型的公共建設欸!另類的公共建設很多啊!社會住宅、長照、社福機構這些也都有他們的自償性都足以讓受險他們的資金回流去投資,不是嗎?但是!他們自落網紋、自落無睹"},{"start":686.297,"end":700.892,"text":"就是這些業者這麼惡劣的心境所以那個彭主委我因為時間到了齁我對你有期許啦我對部長也有期許啦雖然比較低齁"},{"start":702.759,"end":723.398,"text":"但是那個我希望你針對我講的齁那你做一份簡單二要的一些說明私下你告訴我那怎麼來處理好不好一定要降低這些受險業海外投資佔了70%已經到了非常惡劣離譜的地步啦好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":730.523,"end":735.196,"text":"現在請那個央行、央總裁還有彭主任"}]}},{"id":"154497","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154497","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd8c853df77311676f27d0a78c1009ae5ee8e3eb0bf88d021cab1e007f00cecbda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:21:40 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11:36:34","影片長度":"00:14:54","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:21:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:36:34+08:00","duration":894,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":659,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時21分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：我們有請部長。"],["李部長遠：林委員你好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長辛苦。部長，在上週二本席的總質詢裡，我有質詢顧立雄部長，他很明確地說國防部的態度就是三軍儀隊可以移到自由廣場，最終拍板的就是文化部，而且他強調國防部會完全地配合，在這樣的狀況之下，當然文化部的態度就是關鍵。我想藉這個機會，因為早上也很多委員都有垂詢，我藉這個機會也請部長來說明，第一個，三軍儀隊離開堂體是否已經是文化部的最終定案？第二個，三軍儀隊是不是會如同國防部的建議，改到自由廣場去操練？再來，文化部還會不會再思考，對於三軍儀隊有什麼其他的安排？部長。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝委員詢問這個問題。其實關於三軍儀隊要離開堂體之後，要用什麼方式操練，這件事情我們其實非常慎重地已經跟國防部開過很多次會議，然後路線怎麼走，要考慮到這些軍人的方便，還有觀光客的方便，還有要用什麼方式，在離開堂體之後要用什麼理由在外面操演等等，它都是一個非常慎重的儀式，但是我可以跟委員講，文化部的態度非常清楚，因為我們在一年前就已經設定了中正紀念堂轉型條例一定要做的幾個動作，包括去除威權、去除個人崇拜，所以我們的努力方向，這只是第一步，而且是非常確定一定要做，只是時間點本來是10月份要開會，我一再表示我們會更早做，這是我的態度。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK。不過部長，今天早上推動轉型正義會報的小組成員有跟我們辦公室透露文化部的最新規劃，就如同這個圖一樣，我想堂體不再設置禮兵執行的衛哨，操演會移到戶外來進行，而且比照忠烈祠的模式，遇雨就取消勤務。我想這個規劃看起來還蠻清楚的，我是困惑既然文化部是主管機關，而且早就規劃好了，為什麼還要推給行政院推動轉型正義會報來同意？據中正紀念堂轉型推動專案小組，他們其實也早在去年就已經對儀隊的撤離做成決議，不是嗎？所以我想請部長說明，文化部對於這樣的規劃，你們未來真的還要再送所謂的轉型會報嗎？還是你們自己就可以決定這件事情，交代國防部去實施？"],["李部長遠：這個路線連我都沒有清楚，我覺得可能是裡面有些人的想法，像這個路線，我是文化部長，我都不知道這是最後定案，但是我知道的是……"],["林委員宜瑾：沒有，這或許是規劃啦！是規劃。"],["李部長遠：對，它可能是規劃之一啦。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，最新的規劃。"],["李部長遠：因為我希望這次做完之後，就維持這個狀態，不要再改來改去。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然。"],["李部長遠：所以它必須是要國防部本身也接受，文化部也接受，然後我還要考慮到觀光客，還有民眾的權益，我全部要考慮進去之後，想選擇一個非常妥當的方式，可是這個東西文化部的確沒有決定權，因為我們必須開一個由行政院主持的轉型會議。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，這個轉型正義會報其實在去年，很多的成員都已經決議所謂的三軍儀隊，確實是要撤離堂體這件事情，所以這個已經是決議的事情，沒有被決議？"],["李部長遠：好像在一年前有這個決議，然後半年後沒有結論，可見這件事情是非常難的，就是它決議後很難執行，所以經過兩次會議，我自己去翻閱上一次會議是沒有結論，到我們開始了，國防部表達它有不堅持的一個可能的時候，我們才可能往下做，所以我是非常感謝國防部說他們不堅持了，給了我們文化部一個可能性，這個過程中，我們其實來來回回開了很多次會，路線怎麼走，推翻了再改過來，其實就表示我們真的要做了，但是又希望做到讓大家都比較能接受的。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，那就是照9月份送轉型正義會報……"],["李部長遠：也許不用到9月啦，因為我心裡也蠻急的，這樣的題目，你如果一直講，但是又沒有做，會引起更大的反彈，所以我心裡面會希望越快越好。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，我贊成部長您這樣講，因為說真的，這個轉型正義會報的成員，到8月就已經到期，9月是新的成員……"],["李部長遠：又換一批。"],["林委員宜瑾：可是我們過去都是這些舊的成員在討論這件事情最清楚，所以如果這件事情拖到9月讓新的成員去決定，我看可能……所以還是儘快最好。"],["李部長遠：我會儘快。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。另外我們回到今天的專報主題，有關文資修復，臺南火車站原本預計今年的6月要辦理新的修復工程的發包，預計2025年底要完工。部長，目前不曉得進度如何？再來，如果沒有辦法如期發包，那麼到底困境在哪裡？有信心在2025年完工嗎？因為這件事情拖很久，如果遲遲沒有辦法辦理建築師的設計、監造，或者營造廠的發包，最後文化部有打算要接手嗎？因為目前都是臺鐵的事，可是臺鐵對於文資修復真的很外行，所以這件事情要如何處理？部長。"],["李部長遠：好，文資修復是一個非常重要的事情，因為修復的那個能力，還有能不能回到原來那個樣子，其實不能夠很草率地做，所以時常有延遲，或者是把它停掉，再重新發包，細節……"],["林委員宜瑾：當然，可是這件事拖好久了。"],["李部長遠：這個案子，我想請文資局局長跟您回復。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，局長。"],["陳局長濟民：委員，我先提一下，這個案子，我們文化部從它停工到現在，在行政的協調、專業的諮詢，還有我們行政的協處上面，我們盡了很大的力量，尤其像上個月，我們就有兩次找專家學者現勘，它現在的問題是，第一個，結算的部分有送到文化部的審議會裡面，審議會還有一些意見要退請它再修正。另外，我們也在上個月有找專家學者現勘之後給它建議，希望它能夠先提出修復的原則，還有一些怎麼樣進行的方案，也都在持續進行，的確是比較慢，因為這種事情，只要是一終止，解除契約之後，後面的程序比較冗長，我們一定會盡全力來協助。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，實際上，關於臺南火車站的修復狀況，我也跟建築師公會做過很多的討論，建築師都認為其實癥結點還是在所謂的修復人才真的不夠，我想不僅修復人才不夠，整個的契約也應該合理化。去年11月2日本席有跟史哲部長在教文委員會討論過這個問題，公共工程技術服務契約的範本本來是採用總包價法，它在文資修復案件中會造成很多的屢約爭議，史哲部長當時有說文化部對於這項問題是有意識的，他認為文資修復工作就如同局長剛剛講的變數很大，無法一開始就精準地估量，通常是在進行中才發現這個設計要改，為了不讓建築師在那麼多的風險中接案工作，所以我們吸收第一線建築師的意見之後要修正契約範本。我想這個責任現在在李部長的身上，所以請教部長什麼時候可以對文資修復這種第一線狀況提出文資專用的勞務契約範本？部長，還是局長？"],["李部長遠：請局長回答。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["陳局長濟民：報告委員，關於總包價法，我們在去年10月已經召開會議，也邀了全國建築師公會，還有各縣市政府，還有委員辦公室，您的同仁也有去，建築師公會原來想用建造百分比法，但是大家覺得有的時候建造百分比法比總包價法建築師拿到的經費還要少，後來我們在今年2月也邀集全國建築師公會商議，就照現有工程會的契約範本裡面增訂經費表的範本，用這種方式，我們在4月份已經把這個草案提供給全國建築師公會來參考，他們在5月、6月說，建築師公會內部還要再研商，然後再來跟文資局做進一步的洽商，所以我們在等他們對草案內容的意見。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。我想談到文資修復建築師的人才不足，首先真的很感謝文化部正視這樣的困境，所以在去年初文資修復課題的座談會上本席有提出一個構想，就是文化部挹注1,000萬，以5年為期，為我們國家培訓100個文資修復的建築師，上週接獲一個好消息，我們文資修復建築師的人才培訓終於邁向正軌，中斷了21年的建築師文資培訓計畫今天重獲銜接，在今天的書面報告中文化部也有提到，我們今年要開始籌辦古蹟規劃設計及監造培訓班，刻正著手辦理課綱、訓練制度的編擬，預計明年相關的課程就要上路。在這裡請教部長，上述的政策預計會辦理多少年？未來會常態性地來推動嗎？"],["李部長遠：這個應該絕對沒有問題，是要一直做，因為臺灣現在古蹟越來越多，人力不夠很嚴重，所以這個應該是常態，一定會編預算來做。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。我想文資修復建築師就是要鼓勵年輕人來投入，所以在這裡我也有個倡議，希望文化部來支持，就是修正「古蹟修復及再利用辦法」第十九條，明定領有建築師執照，並且在古蹟規劃設計及監造培訓班受過培訓的人員，就可以進行所謂的歷史建築、紀念建築以及文化景觀的修復及再利用，可以這樣來處理嗎？因為現在的規定是當然修歷史建築是不需要任何的資格，可是地方政府都會害怕，所以還是都會讓有資格的人來招標，可是問題卡在這樣子的話就會一直延宕，常常發包不出去，所以如果有參加這個培訓班的人是不是就可以有資格來進行修復？"],["李部長遠：是，這點沒有問題，因為我們也看到那個嚴重性，所以未來我們會朝著匠師分級制，他也不一定要做到有執照那個程度就可以投入這個現場，因為我們後來瞭解現場也有蠻多人沒有執照，可是他會做，所以這些問題我們文資局都掌握得很清楚，委員剛才講的這條就是我們未來一定會往這個方向去修法的。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝。","最後，不好意思！再一點點時間，還是要跟部長討論一下這次的金曲獎，我想從麥克風的沒有聲音到臉書小編逐字稿的疏漏等等，剛剛幾乎每個委員都有垂詢過，表演者上臺第一次麥克風出現問題已經很扯，可是換過之後居然還沒有聲音，這種流行音樂的盛事發生這種低級錯誤，還中斷歌手的表演，整段重來，我覺得音樂人看了都很心痛！也覺得丟盡了臺灣身為科技大國的國家顏面。","部長，這次金曲獎的負責公司成音工程設備，據很多音樂人反映，無論是器材的更新、保養或者技術人員，過去都出現很多很多的問題，並不是這一次金曲獎才出包，他們在業界早就被大家頭痛許久，所以是不是要有實質的改革作為？特別是我在這邊再強調一下，這次我們委託的穩立音響，它以前是一個非常大的廠商，幾十年過去了，他們確實對他們的器材也好、技術人才也好，都沒有做更新，所以他們很多技術人才都流失，他們的品質維持已經是沒有辦法，可是為什麼還是會標到案？因為他們都低價去標，可是你看接了案子，然後搞砸了，所以我覺得這個事情可能要再好好地做檢討，我覺得這個事情出包確實是一個很大的遺憾！部長。"],["李部長遠：沒問題，其實我們已經非常快地跟台視方面談了，一定會深切地檢討，因為這個問題的確是非常嚴重，我們也跟台視之間有合約等等，這也會作為我們下一次再做類似標案的參考。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝主席。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：現在請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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這個轉型正義會報其實在去年就是很多的成員都已經決議就是說所謂的這個三軍一隊居使是要撤離堂體這件事情那所以這個已經是決議的事情沒有被決議好像在一年前有這個決議然後半年後沒有結論可見這件事情是非常難的他決議後很難執行所以經過兩次會議"},{"start":274.71,"end":277.559,"text":"我自己去翻閱上一次會議是沒有結論"},{"start":279.235,"end":305.948,"text":"上一次會議沒有結論到了我們開始國防部表達說他有不堅持的一個可能的時候我們才可能往下做所以我是非常感謝國防部說他們不堅持了給了我們文化部一個可能性那這個過程中我們其實來來回回開了很多次會路線怎麼走推翻了再改過來其實就表示我們真的要做了但是又希望做到一個大家都能比較能接受的"},{"start":306.448,"end":321.609,"text":"好,那就是照9月份送轉型這一位吧?也許不用到9月啦,因為我心裡也蠻急的,因為這樣的題目你如果一直講但是又沒有做,會引起更大的一個反彈,所以我心裡面會希望越快越好。"},{"start":322.57,"end":345.829,"text":"我贊成部長這樣講因為說真的這個轉型正義匯報的成員到8月就已經到期那9月是一個新的成員我們過去都是這些舊的成員在討論這件事情最清楚所以如果說這件事情拖好9月讓新的成員去決定那我看可能所以還是儘快最好我會儘快"},{"start":348.251,"end":350.773,"text":"臺南火車站原本預計今年的6月要辦理新的修復工程的發包那預計2025年底要完工"},{"start":363.382,"end":379.695,"text":"目前部長不曉得進度如何那再來就是說那如果沒有辦法如期發包那到底困境在哪裡那有信心在2025完工嗎因為這件事情拖很久那如果遲遲沒有辦法辦理建築師的這個設計、建造或者營造廠的這個發包那最後"},{"start":385.319,"end":405.051,"text":"文化部有打算要接手嗎?因為現在目前都是台鐵的事可是台鐵對於文資修復真的很外行那所以這件事情要如何處理?部長因為文資修復是一個非常重要的事情因為它修復的那個能力還有能不能回到原來那個樣子其實不能夠很草率地做所以會事實上有那個"},{"start":406.451,"end":411.575,"text":"尤其像上個月我們就有兩次找了專家學者現行他現在的問題就是第一個他結算的部分"},{"start":435.011,"end":456.262,"text":"有送到文化部的審議會裡面審議會還有一些意見要退請他再修正另外我們也在上個月有找專家學者現勘之後給他建議希望他能夠先提出修復的原則還有一些怎麼樣進行的方案也都在持續進行的確是比較慢因為這種事情只要是終止結束契約之後後面的程序比較冗長我們一定會盡全力來協助"},{"start":459.744,"end":479.497,"text":"實際上關於台南火車站的修復狀況我也跟建築師公會做過很多的討論那建築師都認為其實增結的點還是在所謂修復人才真的不夠那我想不僅修復人才不夠整個的契約也應該合理化去年11月2號本席有跟史哲部長在教育委員會討論過這個問題公共工程技術服務契約的範本"},{"start":485.08,"end":505.658,"text":"本來是採用總包價法在這個文資修復案件中會造成很多的履約爭議那使則部長當時有說文化部對這項問題是有意識的那所以他認為文資修復工作就如同局長剛剛講的變數很大那無法一開始就精準的估量"},{"start":506.098,"end":506.398,"text":"請局長回答"},{"start":536.223,"end":558.86,"text":"總包價法,我們在去年10月已經召開會議,邀請了全國建築師公會,還有各縣市政府,還有委員辦公室,您的同仁也有去。大家後來發覺說,總包價法,有一些建築師公會原來想要用建造百分比法,但是大家覺得有的時候建造百分比法比總包價法建築師拿到的金錢還要少。"},{"start":559.58,"end":578.553,"text":"後來我們在今年2月也邀集全國建築師公會也在商議就照現有的工程會的契約範本裡面增訂經費表的範本用這種方式那這種方式我們已經有把這個草案在4月份已經提供給全國建築師公會參考"},{"start":580.174,"end":581.515,"text":"我想談到文資修復的建築師的人才不足"},{"start":596.591,"end":619.609,"text":"首先真的要很感謝文化部正式這樣的困境所以在去年初在那個文資修復的這個課題座談會上那本席有提出的構想就是說文化部預注一千萬那以五年為期那為我們國家培訓一百個文資修復的建築師那上週接獲一個好消息那就是我們文資修復建築師人才培訓的問題終於已經邁向正軌那中斷了21年的這個建築師的文資培訓計畫"},{"start":627.014,"end":628.754,"text":"上述政策預計會辦理多少年?未來會常態性推動嗎?"},{"start":652.594,"end":654.617,"text":"我想文資修復建築師就是要鼓勵年輕人來投入"},{"start":671.978,"end":688.275,"text":"所以在這裡我也有個倡議就是說希望文化部來支持那就是修正這個古蹟修復及再利用辦法第19條我們明定領有建築師執照並且在古蹟修復設計及建造培訓班受過培訓的"},{"start":689.116,"end":689.536,"text":"林宜瑾議員林宜瑾議員"},{"start":716.328,"end":716.388,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":744.193,"end":744.313,"text":"HOW?"},{"start":759.155,"end":759.295,"text":"林宜瑾"},{"start":778.755,"end":801.543,"text":"表演者上台第一次麥克風出現問題已經很扯可是換過之後居然還沒有聲音我想流行音樂這種盛世發生這種低級錯誤那中段歌手的表演整段重來我覺得這個很多音樂人看了都很心痛那也覺得丟盡了台灣身為科技大國的這個國家顏面部長我想這一次的金曲獎"},{"start":802.843,"end":821.357,"text":"陳英工程設備的負責公司據很多音樂人反映說無論是器材的更新保養或者技術人員過去都出現很多的問題這並不是這一次金曲榜才出發他們早在業界就被大家頭痛許久"},{"start":821.957,"end":822.217,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":844.924,"end":868.782,"text":"品質的維持已經是沒有辦法可是為什麼還是會標到案因為他們都用低價去標到可是你看這個案子搞砸了所以我覺得這個事情可能要再好好的做檢討那是不是我們要要求這整個業界要針對這個事情我覺得這個事情出包確實是一個很大的遺憾"},{"start":870.051,"end":870.732,"text":"主席謝主席"}]}},{"id":"154494","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154494","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd8dbf83f9878c206ecb3f5941fe168625e8e3eb0bf88d021c0ed51fbfb97caa545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:13:16 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11:25:22","影片長度":"00:12:06","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:13:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:25:22+08:00","duration":726,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":750,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時13分）有請財政部部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長早。謝謝主席，我昨天有看到一個新聞，就是健保署石崇良署長表示要成立臺灣癌症新藥基金永續論壇，以前我們是菸捐嘛，現在他說酒捐，酒捐將成為可能的來源之一，我想請問一下部長，你知道這件事嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：基本上，我跟委員一樣，是在媒體看到的。"],["黃委員珊珊：你在媒體看到？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們的石署長是自己天馬行空，還是做白日夢，還是這是行政院的目標？"],["莊部長翠雲：捐的部分，事實上是屬於衛福部主管。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，但是這個部分，菸酒稅是你們管嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，稅的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：一個國家在討論財政收入來源的時候，都不需要跟財政部討論嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想後續我們應該會有所討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：那你支持他的說法嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，因為具體的內容，其實我們還沒有很詳細的瞭解……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以都不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：你跟我一樣，我們都是看媒體才知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得一個政策如果有新的狀況，必須要很嚴謹。第一個，賴清德總統提出的是百億癌症新藥基金，所以我看得出來，石崇良是在找財源啦，但找財源的方式，我覺得還要更慎重，因為這個隨意地說出來，會造成社會上大家很多的恐慌。","第二個，我們的法規要配合，如果要這樣做，以前有個菸害防制法，現在要先立一個酒害防制法，然後你這邊的菸酒稅法可能也要做一些同步的討論跟調整，所以部長，我還是建議行政院這邊，希望院裡面還是應該要互相討論，不應該這樣子衝動地說出來，好嗎？所以部長，你去問一問吧，你不要跟我一樣，要到議場來被問時，然後才說你不知道。好，這是第一點。","第二點，我想同步請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長也請留步，因為這兩件事情很重要，大家都知道我們很關心新青安貸款，前一陣子卓榮泰院長已經開了相關的檢討會，我也看到財政部有一些發布，也謝謝部長，非常從善如流的把我們所質疑的問題也都納入你的稽核，接下去的查核方式，我想問一下新青安貸款，目前財政部這一次推出的有一個很奇怪的命令，叫做只限一次，只限一次的原因是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想委員也很清楚，新青安貸款它的政策立意良善，但是不能作為炒房跟人頭戶的一個工具，那麼現在……"],["黃委員珊珊：只限一次是已經有人發現第二次了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是希望年輕朋友們，他們可以珍惜這樣一個機會，去買他的第一間房子，以及房貸……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我是問你只限一次的原因是什麼？是已經有人發生了第二次嗎？有嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們還繼續在查，我們還在查，也就是說，其實之前委員也有問過，就是說他買了一間用新青安，然後賣了又再去用新青安可不可以的問題，也有委員曾經質詢過。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以有沒有發生還不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們後續會去追查。"],["黃委員珊珊：來，金管會彭主委，你認為新青安可以貸款兩次嗎？買了賣掉，賺了幾百萬，然後再去買一個，無限期的買，人頭一直換，這是我們原來立法的原意嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金管會對於所有的貸款，我們是做一個整體的管理啦，不會特別針對新青安。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為新青安是財政部的辦法，公股銀行配合。"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實不是我們金管會在……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以部長，這個部分不是金管會主管啦，但是我覺得這件事情，在我們銀行放貸的時候，也要做一些查核。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，如果它是裡面內控內稽裡面的規範，我們就會來處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以財政部現在查到，7月1號有個消息說，目前有查到一千七百多件的人頭戶，這個消息屬實嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是查到一千七百多件人頭戶，就是說可能從高風險裡面，我們先篩選出高風險大概一千七百多戶，但是這高風險裡面不見得都是人頭戶或是違規的……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你大概什麼時候可以查……"],["莊部長翠雲：會針對這一千多戶的個案委外去查。"],["黃委員珊珊：你什麼時候可以給我們查出一個來龍去脈，然後來跟立法院報告？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說，各公股行庫都在積極的調查當中。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我覺得這件事情很重要，因為新青安貸款，現在不管是民間或者是銀行業者，或者是房地產業者，其實大家都把這個當成一個非常、非常重要的火車頭，燒起來之後，臺灣的房市往上飆升也就算了，現在是所有的年輕人把它當成一個投資的行業、把它當成一個穩賺不賠的行業，所以我想知道，你大概什麼時候會有一個初步的查核結果？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想初步我們是請公股行庫在……"],["黃委員珊珊：1個月可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會逐批的去查，我想1個月我們查出一個結果給委員瞭解。"],["黃委員珊珊：1個月給我們一個初步的報告，如果有，那就要處理。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然要處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：今天我最擔心的是說，今天很多人違規了，但是他違規沒有什麼，他只是重新核貸，還掉利息、還點錢，然後呢？有沒有受到任何的影響或處罰？不會？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然以目前來說，銀行的合約裡面並沒有相關處罰的要求。"],["黃委員珊珊：這就是中華民國的法規，我們常常是我抓到你了，所以你取消資格，然後就算了。"],["莊部長翠雲：但是他將來就不能再適用新青安。"],["黃委員珊珊：不能再適用就算了。彭主委，現在一般人去申請房貸，我們是不是會做聯徵中心的信用評分？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該，銀行實務裡面，他們的自律規範、相關規定應該是有這個。"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說，一般的民眾如果去銀行借錢，曾經有逾期，或者是相關的還款有問題，他都會被紀錄所謂的不良信用，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果他在聯徵裡面有紀錄，銀行會自行考慮。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，所以現在部長我想問一下，如果有人利用新青安做假，比如他沒有自住，他被取消了貸款，會不會列入聯徵的信用瑕疵、需不需要通報？這可能也是財政部必須列入考慮的範圍。也就是在臺灣拿政府的補助，如果你騙了政府，你要付出相對的代價，而且要受到一定的處罰，否則當了人頭也無所謂，就會有現在這麼多的人頭、無所謂的情況。部長，我的意見……"],["莊部長翠雲：我瞭解委員的意思，也就是應該讓他在信用的聯徵上要有所紀錄，這個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們要讓國人知道不誠實是很嚴重的。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們跟金管會一起討論來做，看怎麼樣加註，讓未來有所抑制。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，如果政府的補助可以隨意地只是單純取消，他無所謂，下次再去做別的事啊！反正他去銀行還是通行無阻，今天做了一個，新青安撤銷之後，他不能再申請新青安，可是他一樣可以繼續做其他的人頭。我的意思是我們要讓大家知道，不要隨便當別人的人頭、不要隨便欺騙政府。"],["莊部長翠雲：確實是，這是一輩子的信用。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，所以這個部分我希望你們也納入新青安的相關標準。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們跟金管會研議。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們要讓大家知道當人頭是嚴重的，不誠實是嚴重的，不誠實是會影響信用的。在國外，我想這個是最基本的要件，好嗎？這是第二點。","第三個部分，今天討論的是保險，所以部長請回，然後是主委。"],["主席：部長請回。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在臺灣還是一個地震頻繁的地方，921那時政府、立法院火速通過修正保險法，對保險業要求他們要承保住宅的地震險。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個已經二十年了，你知道現在我們國內房屋投保地震險的比例有多少嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該剛剛突破四成，大概……"],["施局長瓊華：將近四成。"],["彭主任委員金隆：將近四成。"],["黃委員珊珊：剛剛突破四成？"],["彭主任委員金隆：將近四成。"],["黃委員珊珊：是因為去銀行貸款必須要保。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是沒有去銀行貸款的人可以不保？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是沒有再額外買火險的人，大概就不會有這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們的火險、地震險其實金額並不高。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：每次銀行跟我說又要續約了，我看看才幾千塊錢。"],["彭主任委員金隆：大概一千……"],["黃委員珊珊：對，一千多塊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：一千多塊。"],["黃委員珊珊：其實是相對非常便宜又划算的保險，保險業是不是不太想推？還是因為沒有強迫所以就不推？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實國人……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果只有四成，二十年了，主委覺得滿意嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就以那個貸款的覆蓋率應該是非常高，其實我們有訂……"],["黃委員珊珊：貸款覆蓋率應該是百分之百，因為每個銀行都會先做這個要求。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，應該……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是其他的怎麼辦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在房子有房貸的應該都會被要求。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在如果沒有房貸的，大概就是自己購買力比較低……"],["黃委員珊珊：地震發生之前大家都認為沒必要，花那一千多塊幹嘛！但是一千多塊可以保障你遇到地震如果真的受災了，像這次花蓮災區、當年921的南投災區……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：很多的房子，其實求助無門，後來用捐款，政府花公務預算補助。但我現在要說的是，2018至2022年家庭貸款增長的速度將近28%，也就是家庭會去貸款的部分增長得很快速，但房屋資產增長的速度只有10%，也就是我們借的錢遠比房屋增值的金額高，所以我認為這是一個風險管理。然後我們看到地震險，其實就相關的我們有住宅地震險的保險基金。"],["彭主任委員金隆：基金，對。"],["黃委員珊珊：其說法為這應該是一個政策性的保險。主委，我只是想知道，從四成怎麼繼續往前走？怎麼讓國人更願意投保住宅的地震險？房地產的暴險，將來不要又變成政府給一大堆錢補助而讓保險能夠share。如果今天保險公司有這麼多的資產，它其實是我們最好的避險。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，這個我們其實一直都責成地震基金持續做教育訓練。另外一個，我們也要鼓勵大家購買，除了強制以外，就是剛才所講政策上的地震險、一般商業的那個地震險，這個比率也是偏低。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我主要是說，我們希望它變成是政策性的，就要大力推廣；如果真的不行，我覺得有一部分可能將來你要變成政策性的。像我的房子，如果一千多塊我覺得很有保障、很高興！而保險公司，它發生機率也不高，對他們來說風險也沒那麼大，所以其實可以精算得出來，這個費用對一般民眾來說應該是可以接受。我希望短期之內，在你任內，我們努力達到五成，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們來努力，我們會……"],["黃委員珊珊：五成，我覺得至少金管會應該把這個當成自己的KPI。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們來加油。"],["黃委員珊珊：往前走。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們來加油。"],["黃委員珊珊：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接著請王世堅委員質詢。王委員質詢完畢，我們就休息一下。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大\n參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員\n會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢；二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":1.6003437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.70159375,"end":2.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.35409375,"end":35.502218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.46409375,"end":39.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.299093750000004,"end":41.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.10909375,"end":40.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.45909375,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.344093750000006,"end":48.360968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.360968750000005,"end":52.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.094718750000006,"end":63.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.46409375,"end":66.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.65346875,"end":66.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.67034375,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.35784375,"end":73.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.76659375,"end":97.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.22659375,"end":99.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.25159375000001,"end":106.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.96784375,"end":123.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.02846875,"end":125.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.40784375000001,"end":129.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.12471875,"end":129.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.15409375000002,"end":134.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.33909375000002,"end":134.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.28409375,"end":136.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.73971875,"end":135.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.94221875,"end":136.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.42659375,"end":141.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.11846875,"end":143.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.60346875000002,"end":149.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.98221875000002,"end":156.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.46221875,"end":161.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.13221875000002,"end":166.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.78971875000002,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.45159375,"end":171.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.83534375000002,"end":173.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.75909375,"end":175.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.25659375,"end":194.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.95596875,"end":183.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.47471875000002,"end":184.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.49159375000002,"end":186.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.65159375000002,"end":187.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.89534375000002,"end":198.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.76409375,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.68346875,"end":198.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.78471875000002,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.97034375,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.03784375,"end":199.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.17284375000003,"end":199.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.22346875000002,"end":210.14159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.10034375,"end":204.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.56784375,"end":217.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.32596875000002,"end":219.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.84909375,"end":224.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.36721875,"end":226.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.35846875000001,"end":238.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.60971875,"end":243.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.03159375,"end":239.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.54596875000001,"end":243.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","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如果它是裡面的內控內基裡面的規範我們就會來處理所以財政部現在查到7月1號有個消息說目前有查到1700多件的人頭戶這個消息屬實嗎"},{"start":265.677,"end":265.977,"text":"公共股、航空部都積極查"},{"start":287.421,"end":302.186,"text":"部長我覺得這件事情很重要因為新興家貸款現在已經不管是民間或者是銀行業者或者是房地產業者其實大家都把這個當成一個非常非常重要的火車頭"},{"start":303.306,"end":305.307,"text":"邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會．加速建設之推動．加速建設之推動．加速建設之推動．"},{"start":318.403,"end":338.66,"text":"呃,我想我們,呃,初步我們是請工股航庫在...一個月可以嗎?一周,呃,我們會逐批的去查,我想一個月我們查出一個月給我們一個初步的報告,如果有,那就要處理。今天我最擔心的是說,今天我們很多人違規了,但是他違規,沒有什麼。"},{"start":339.781,"end":347.746,"text":"他只是重新核代、還掉利息、還點錢,然後有沒有受到任何的影響或處罰。"},{"start":349.551,"end":352.772,"text":"現在彭主委,我們是不是一般人去申請房貸,我們會做廉政中心的信用評分?"},{"start":374.042,"end":391.077,"text":"應該銀行實務裡面他們的自律規範相關應該是有這個也就是說一般的民眾他去銀行借錢曾經有預期或者是相關的還款有問題他都會被記錄所謂的不良信用對吧如果他在連徵裡面有記錄銀行會自行考量是的"},{"start":392.441,"end":411.833,"text":"所以現在部長我想問一下如果有人利用了新清單做了假的比如說他沒有自住他被取消了貸款他會不會列入連徵裡面的信用瑕疵需不需要通報這個部分可能也是財政部必須要把它列入考慮的範圍也就是說在台灣我們"},{"start":413.294,"end":436.728,"text":"拿政府補助如果你騙了政府你要付出相對的代價而且要受到一定的處罰否則當了人頭也無所謂就會有現在這麼多的人頭無所謂的情況部長我的意見我了解委員的意思就是說應該讓他在這個信用的連徵上要有所記錄我們要讓國人知道不誠實是很嚴重的"},{"start":438.098,"end":465.687,"text":"這個部分我們跟金管會一起來討論來做看怎麼樣的一個加注沒錯,如果政府的補助可以隨意的只是單純的取消他無所謂啊下次再去做別的事啊反正他去銀行還是通行無阻今天做了一個新興安撤銷之後他不能再徵請新興安可是他一樣可以繼續做他其他的人頭我的意思是說我們要讓大家知道不要隨便當別人的人頭"},{"start":466.608,"end":468.278,"text":"不要隨便欺騙政府"},{"start":468.697,"end":472.86,"text":"第三個部分就是我想問一下今天討論的是保險所以就麻煩部長請回然後主委"},{"start":500.198,"end":522.055,"text":"臺灣現在我們還是一個地震頻繁的地方然後我們臺灣目前為止在921的時候其實政府、立法院火速修法通過保險法把保險業要求他們要承保住宅的地震險是的這個已經20年了你知道現在的我們國內法屋投保地震的"},{"start":522.435,"end":523.516,"text":"地震險的比例有多少?"},{"start":541.936,"end":559.85,"text":"我每次銀行跟我說你又要續約我看看才幾千塊錢一千多塊其實是相對非常便宜又划算的保險保險業是不是不太想推啊還是因為沒有強迫所以就不推如果只有4成20年主委你覺得你滿意嗎"},{"start":561.271,"end":578.609,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":578.809,"end":596.885,"text":"在沒有地震發生之前大家都認為沒必要花那一千多塊幹嘛但是一千多塊可以保障你在地震如果真的受災了像這是花蓮的災區當年921的南投的災區其實很多房子其實求助我們然後政府花了很多後來用捐款"},{"start":597.546,"end":619.773,"text":"候政府的公布預算來補助但是我現在要說的是2018到2022年家庭的貸款增長的速度將近是28%也就是我們家庭會去貸款的速度很快速但是房地的資產增長的速度只有10%也就是說我們借的錢遠比我們房屋增值的金額高所以我認為"},{"start":621.293,"end":643.658,"text":"這個是一個風險管理然後我們看到地震險其實在相關的我們有一個住宅地震險的保險基金它的說法是這是應該是一個政策性的保險主委我只是想知道從四層怎麼繼續往前走怎麼讓國人更願意去投保住宅的地震險把房地產的曝險"},{"start":645.158,"end":669.668,"text":"將來不要又變成政府要來給一大堆錢補助而讓保險能夠去share如果今天保險公司有這麼多的資產它其實是我們最好的避險是的 這個我們其實上一直都責成地震基金持續的做教育訓練那另外一個就是我們也要那個鼓勵大家購買除了強制以為就剛才講的政策的地震險一般的商業的那個地震險"},{"start":670.849,"end":686.93,"text":"這個比率也是比例所以剛剛我主要說主委我們希望它變成政策性它就是一個要大力推廣如果真的不行我覺得有一部分可能將來你要變成政策性的如果一千多塊像我的房子一千多塊我覺得很有保障很高興"},{"start":687.811,"end":688.371,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":719.076,"end":725.284,"text":"接著請王世堅、王委員質詢王委員質詢完畢,我們就休息一下"}]}},{"id":"154493","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154493","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdbc05d182c591d7ed266d74c0b9571b08e8e3eb0bf88d021cce6dc580683089465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:08:00 - 11:22:47","影片長度":"00:14:47","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:08:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:22:47+08:00","duration":887,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":34,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-34"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":505,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時8分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：次長，我們過去是立法院同事，過去就對於您的法學專業非常敬仰，很期待跟您的對話。"],["黃次長世杰：不敢。"],["吳委員思瑤：民進黨團是優先提出國會擴權法案的第一個釋憲案的憲法機關，我們昨天也收到了7月10號憲法法庭即將召開，庭期已定，也非常感謝憲法法庭快速的在我們送出案件的第三天──6月28日就已經受理，所以從受理，然後到憲法法庭開會的庭期已定，我們都可以認定整個大法官也非常審慎快速地對於國會擴權法案要做出法規範的憲法法庭審議。","非常遺憾，今天上午在樓下的交通委員會有四個大違法，他們硬要在空窗期來大幹一場，就是成立了鏡電視的調查小組，而這個調查小組已經鬧了三胞，第一個是原本交通委員會3月11日就成立一個調閱小組，第二個就是今天陳雪生沒有經過司法及法制委員會的同意，自己把我們聯席進去了，然後我說它有四個違反，就是第一個它違反立法院各委員會組織法第十三條，如果要進行聯席委員會，要經過院會交付，或者是由召委提請院會決定，欸，它都沒有！陳雪生召委在主持的時候，他也說，對，我沒有！可是他就是要硬幹。第二個，他也違反現在雖然是惡法、擴權的法案，但是現行通過的立法院職權行使法第四十六條之二，也很清楚地說，偵查中的案件不宜來進行調查嘛！所以也違反自己剛通過的法律。當然第三個大違反就是，我認為他完全不尊重鍾佳濱召委、不尊重我們司法及法制委員會，召委，他好像沒有問過您對不對？"],["主席：沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：都沒有嘛！我是司法及法制委員會的委員，我還覺得怪，為什麼把我們聯席進去沒有通知我們、沒有告知我們？原來是為了讓我們黃國昌總召長期關心鏡電視、長期鎖定鏡電視，以查弊之名來進行政治肅殺的手段，所以硬要把司法及法制委員會聯席進去。您過去也在立法院，如果跟媒體相關要聯席會找到司法及法制委員會不是不行，那有點怪，那公平會的事務，經濟委員會是不是要聯席？教育及文化委員會，文化部跟NCC相關掌理內容的部分也有相關，那為什麼不是聯席教育及文化委員會跟經濟委員會，獨選司法及法制委員會？就是天選之人、天選之案、就是先射箭再畫靶，讓我們的黃國昌總召可以進入這個調查委員會來進行他所要的查弊或調查，所以對於這樣的一個處理，我是認為在大法官的釋憲或是暫時處分還沒有做出裁定之前，立法院都應當是自制的。次長同意我的觀點嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我們尊重立法院的職權行使，也尊重委員的意見。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那下面要就教於您，因為這幾天不斷的有在野黨的委員說，大法官是綠友友，釋憲案要迴避。我是就法條跟您討論，請問您對於大法官迴避的看法是什麼？"],["黃次長世杰：我想應該依照憲法訴訟法相關的規定來進行，這個是由司法院主管的事。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我懂。如果依國民黨的邏輯，只要是民進黨執政時期所提名的大法官就是綠友友的話，那完全無視於大法官的法學專業，他們獨立運作是超出政黨之外，陳水扁的任期，大法官釋憲做出135個案子；馬英九的時期有95個釋憲案；蔡英文總統八年任內做出76個釋憲案。如果依國民黨的邏輯，這些都是應迴避而未迴避，所以這完全不通。","那您剛剛說的大法官的迴避條款，您要不要針對憲法訴訟法第九條、第十條，也就是憲法訴訟法第二章第二節整個對大法官的迴避來分享一下您的觀點好嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這個迴避的條款，基本上是基於可能的利益衝突或是職務的衝突，第九條是關於自行迴避，第十條是關於聲請迴避，聲請迴避的話，也需要有聲請人來向憲法法庭做聲請。我想這些規定都跟我們一般在司法案件裡面的迴避之規定精神是類同、一致的。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以已經有清楚的規範，對於大法官的、對於人、對於事、對於案件的迴避，如果現在在野黨要無限上綱，把還未進入憲法法庭審議的釋憲案，就推為、導向它可能做出某些可能的裁決，我認為這是對於憲法不敬、對於大法官不敬。","再來，也是要就教於您喔！我們黃國昌委員一直說，擴權的釋憲案在憲法法庭一定要有言詞辯論，是這樣嗎？我想您對於憲法法庭、對於司法院的運作，當然你現在是法務部的次長，今天是跟您做一下討論。我認為任何委員再大都不要凌駕大法官，以憲法訴訟法第二十五條很清楚的規定，在第五章及第六章明定的案件，其判決應當要有言詞辯論。除了第五章及第六章的案件以外，判決得不經言詞辯論。換言之，黃國昌委員說，國會擴權法案的審議一定要有言詞辯論，我們沒有預設立場，我們尊重大法官的決定，但是就法條論法條，您comment一下吧！"],["黃次長世杰：我想法條委員已經解釋得非常清楚了，事實上，實務上我們也看到，憲法法庭在憲法訴訟法施行之後，也是朝向盡可能地廣納各方意見，然後以舉行言詞辯論的方式為原則；當然憲法訴訟法有明定應行言詞辯論的案件跟得不經言詞辯論來審理的案件，因為憲法法庭所處理的大概都是法律問題為多，像我們最高法院其實也是得行言詞辯論，但是也不見得每個案子都一定要透過言詞辯論的方式來做，這個是一個法理。我們看到憲法法院現在也已經定了庭期，我想這個應該沒有相關的爭議，我相信大法官、憲法法庭會依照憲法跟相關法律的規定獨立來行使職權。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，我在這裡就教於您的就是，我認為不管是法務部主管的檢察系統，或是司法院主管的法院系統，或者是大法官憲法法庭，都應當避免用政治立場去干預。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：避免去對大法官或是各級的法官、檢察官們下指導棋，這是從政者應當要自制、要非常清楚的一個分際，憲法機關本於互相平等、尊重、平等相維的原則。","但同樣的也要就教於您，您是法學專業，這週立法院最受關注的是選罷法的修法，國民黨智庫昨天說，實體從舊，程序從新，所以提高了罷免的門檻，修法如果通過的話，本屆就可以開始適用，甚至現在已經進行中的謝國樑的案子就可以適用。請問法務部，您這邊的法律見解如何？"],["黃次長世杰：我想具體個案的適用還是由各該主管機關去決定，但是在法理上，中央法規標準法第十八條的規定，它其實是從新從優。也就是說，其實所謂的實體或程序的界限也未必可以一刀兩斷。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["黃次長世杰：特別是關於罷免權利的行使……"],["吳委員思瑤：對人民的權利……"],["黃次長世杰：是公民的政治權利，所以關於它的相關規定，因為我們現在還不知道將來選罷法會怎麼修啦！是不是可以單純地以程序性的規定來適用，事實上要看最後修法的結果。那麼我想要綜合來判斷，特別是要提醒，就這一個法律適用上，一定要特別注意，要保障人民權利的行使，這個部分如果有涉及到人民權利行使實質內容的時候，或許就不宜用單純的程序規定來實施……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，謝謝次長的說明，您的看法跟我一致。所謂實體從舊，程序從新，在我看來，選罷法要提高罷免門檻也好，或者是要增加連署的難度也好，這都涉及人民權利的行使，這都是實體；而且你要去擴充委員自己自利自肥，然後去凌駕於保障人民權利，我認為這是完全不通的。所以您剛剛的解釋，不管是中央法規標準法第十八條從新從優之法理，都是要採行對於人民有利之解釋、對於人民權利的保障，而且保障人民的信賴利益都是最高，任何一個法律修法的基本原則，也就是ABC對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是，這是我們一貫的立場。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝！再給我一點點時間。今天的主題也就是要修民法的這個部分，我想提案的委員都是要保障消費者從修法來下手。當然要杜絕融資公司巧立名目、規避民法利率上限，幾位委員不管是開記者會或是提出具體的修法，在2020年我們已經修法調降了，約定利率從百分之二十降到百分之十六，就是為了保障經濟弱勢者；但是對於融資公司透過另外的方式──各類的規費、手續費，來超過法定利率的漏洞，這件事情確實需要去解決。所以委員提案了，不好意思！我剛剛沒有在會議上，因為我有另外一個質詢。法務部對法的意見是認為還要再周延討論，但如果不修這個法，有什麼樣有效的手段可以來避免、杜絕？如果不修法。"],["黃次長世杰：今天稍早的說明跟委員的垂詢，我們都有提到，事實上修這個法最多只是解決一小部分的問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["黃次長世杰：另外，配套措施還是應該要加強對於這一些金融、準金融的行為來做監理……"],["吳委員思瑤：強化它的監理。"],["黃次長世杰：強化它的監理，因為剛剛稍早我們的召委也有提示了很多具體的案例，這個其實都未必直接跟利息有關，因為它會巧立各種名目……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我懂。"],["黃次長世杰：用不同的契約型態，甚至是複合的契約型態，同時跟很多的行為人都發生關係，這樣情形底下，是不是我們修了這一條之後，或許我們能夠……"],["吳委員思瑤：可能會掛一漏萬。"],["黃次長世杰：第一個，或許能夠解決最單純高利貸的這種型態，但是，我們也要注意到民法會適用在所有的法律行為上面。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，我理解。"],["黃次長世杰：如果說一些其他正當、合法的，這個也會被影響到，我們還是有必要來徵詢……"],["吳委員思瑤：其他相關機關的意見？"],["黃次長世杰：各界的意見之後，再把它訂定的更周延會比較好。"],["吳委員思瑤：因為金管會對於融資業現在是適用公司法，所以是經濟部在管轄，確實在整個對於融資業的監理強度是不是足夠，這是本席比較關切的核心。我們來看看國際，這個是行政院消保處還有外交部提供的資料，我去綜整出來的，國際多數的金融相關主管機關來管轄融資公司這一種的是多數，日本的金融廳、韓國金融管理委員會、新加坡、加拿大、法國、盧森堡、荷蘭、德國、英國、澳洲等，都是由金融監理機關來強化對於融資公司的監理事項。當然另外一類，像美國、義大利、南非、歐盟等是用央行或是其他機關來作為主理。所以我個人是認為，如果要更全面的去解決融資公司很多巧立名目其他的作為的話，當然修法是一個可以思考的，但是對於融資公司管理，是用專法或是在現行的法規裡頭用一個專章，更明確的從源頭來管制，這是我的觀點啦！就教於次長。"],["黃次長世杰：是，因為這個不是本部所主管。"],["吳委員思瑤：不是您的業務。"],["黃次長世杰：我們會尊重相關主管機關，還有行政院的政策決定，但如果大院要以立法的形式來解決這個問題，我們也尊重，我們在相關法制過程，會本於職責……"],["吳委員思瑤：你們會有對案嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：來提供相關的法制建議。"],["吳委員思瑤：你們會有對案嗎？如果是要修民法？"],["黃次長世杰：這個不是修民法的問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：不是，我是說剛剛這個題目的話。"],["黃次長世杰：我們剛剛有說明，因為我們也在內部有跟相關的專家學者進行討論過了，我們也把我們目前的方向跟委員所提類似的方向，一起來函詢各該主管機關，就各行各業的意見，等他們回函之後，我們會綜整……"],["吳委員思瑤：你們再做出一個……"],["黃次長世杰：看是不是能夠提出一個完整的規定。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我理解，我們希望後續有更長期的時間來匯聚更高的共識，謝謝次長、謝謝召委，謝謝。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝黃次長。","目前所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員林思銘、翁曉玲所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-34","speakers":["鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","黃珊珊","郭國文","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案；(二)委員鍾佳濱等\n25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.949718750000001,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.99159375,"end":9.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.227218750000002,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.868468750000002,"end":22.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.06534375,"end":23.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.80784375,"end":38.337218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.79846875,"end":29.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.051593750000002,"end":30.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.80971875,"end":65.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.62409375,"end":66.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.68721875,"end":67.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.78409375000001,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.13409375,"end":70.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.75409375000001,"end":80.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.60909375,"end":90.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.79721875,"end":93.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.97409375000001,"end":111.49034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.06409375000001,"end":135.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.72284375,"end":138.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.42284375,"end":139.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.62096875,"end":146.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.14721875,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.61096875,"end":160.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.83284375000002,"end":161.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.11534375000002,"end":162.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.99284375000002,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.19909375,"end":166.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.27409375000002,"end":175.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.58159375000002,"end":195.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.13534375,"end":213.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.73596875,"end":218.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.35971875,"end":218.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.56221875000003,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.46346875,"end":229.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.52659375000002,"end":235.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.82534375,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.02284375000002,"end":241.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.95096875000002,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.96784375000001,"end":241.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.98471875,"end":242.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.11971875,"end":242.20409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.20409375000003,"end":242.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.79471875000002,"end":242.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.08159375000002,"end":244.29659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.08534375000002,"end":247.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.16096875000002,"end":253.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.13471875000002,"end":259.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.17596875000004,"end":265.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.06534375,"end":292.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.50409375000004,"end":295.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.17034375000003,"end":301.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.82346875,"end":303.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.86534375,"end":309.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.63721875000005,"end":305.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.53096875,"end":312.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.58159375,"end":310.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.79221875,"end":315.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.17159375,"end":319.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.64346875,"end":319.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.76159375000003,"end":319.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.79534375000003,"end":335.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.89409375,"en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start":112.094,"end":138.839,"text":"第二（他也違反現在雖然是二法擴權的法案但是現行通過的立法院職權刑事法46之二條也很清楚的說偵查中的案件不宜來進行調查嘛所以也違反自己剛通過的法律當然第三個大違反就是我認為他完全不尊重鍾佳濱、趙偉不尊重我們司法法制委員會趙偉他好像沒有問過您嘛對不對都沒有嗎"},{"start":139.739,"end":145.897,"text":"所以我是司法法制委員會的委員我還覺得怪為什麼把我們聯席進去沒有通知我們沒有告知我們"},{"start":147.196,"end":171.435,"text":"原來是為了讓我們黃國昌總召長期關心禁電事長期鎖定禁電事以查閉之名來進行政治肅殺的手段所以硬要把司法法制聯席進去您過去也在立法院如果跟媒體相關要聯席會繳到司法法制不是不行那有點怪"},{"start":172.496,"end":194.116,"text":"公平會經濟委員會是不是要聯席?教育文化委員會文化部跟這個NCC的相關長理內容的部分也有相關那為什麼不是聯席教育文化委員會跟經濟委員會獨選司法法制委員會就是天選之人天選之案就是先設建在畫吧讓我們的黃國昌總召可以進入這個調查委員會來"},{"start":196.198,"end":198.519,"text":"我們尊重這個立法院的執權的行使那也尊重委員的意見"},{"start":218.646,"end":243.617,"text":"好 那下面要就交於您了因為這幾天不斷的有在野黨的委員說大法官是律由有釋憲案要迴避我是就法條跟您討論請問您對於大法官的迴避的看法是什麼我想應該依照憲法訴訟法相關的規定來進行好 下一頁那這個是由這個司法院主席好 我懂下一頁如果說"},{"start":246.121,"end":263.76,"text":"以國民黨的邏輯只要是民進黨執政時期所提名的大法官就是綠油油的話那完全無視於大法官的法學專業他們獨立運作是超出政黨之外陳水扁的任期大法官所釋憲做出135個案子"},{"start":266.307,"end":292.118,"text":"馬英九的時期有95個釋憲案蔡英文總統8年任內做出76個釋憲案如果依國民黨的邏輯這些都是因迴避而未迴避所以就完全不通下一頁那您剛說的大法官的迴避條款您要不要針對憲法訴訟法第9條第10條也就是憲法訴訟法第二節整個對於大法官的迴避來分享一下您的觀點好嗎"},{"start":293.53,"end":311.967,"text":"我想這個迴避的條款是基本上基於可能的利益衝突或是職務的衝突所以說第九條是關於自行迴避的第十條是關於申請迴避的那申請迴避的話也需要有申請人來向憲法法庭來做申請"},{"start":312.868,"end":339.978,"text":"那我想這些規定都跟我們一般在司法案件裡面的迴避的規定的精神是類同的一致的所以已經有清楚的規範對於大法官的對於人對於事對於案件的迴避如果現在在野黨要無限上綱把還未進入憲法法庭審議的釋憲案就把它推為導向他可能做出某些可能的一個裁決我認為這是對於憲法不敬"},{"start":342.459,"end":361.615,"text":"對於大法官不敬。那下一頁也是要就交於您喔我們黃國昌委員一直說擴權的釋憲案在憲法法庭一定要有言辭辯論是這樣嗎?下一頁我想您對於憲法法庭對於司法院的運作當然你現在是法務部的次長那今天是跟您做一下討論"},{"start":362.836,"end":382.605,"text":"我認為任何委員再大都不要凌駕大法官以憲法訴訟法25條很清楚的規定在第五章第六章明定的案件判決應當要有言辭辯論除了第五章第六章的案件以外判決得不經言辭辯論換言之黃國昌委員說"},{"start":387.688,"end":403.884,"text":"國會擴權法案的審議一定要有言辭辯論我們沒有預設立場我們尊重大法官的決定但是就法條論法條您comments一下吧我想這個法條委員已經解釋得非常清楚了"},{"start":404.685,"end":404.885,"text":"委員吳思瑤"},{"start":422.444,"end":448.016,"text":"當然憲法出文法有明定因行延遲辯論的案件跟得不經延遲辯論來審理的案件。那麼因為這個憲法法庭的所處理的大概都是法律問題為多。那所以呢這個像我們最高法院其實也是得行延遲辯論但是呢也不見得每個案子都一定要通過延遲辯論的方式來做。那麼這個是一個法理啦。"},{"start":449.116,"end":475.464,"text":"我們看到憲法法院現在也已經訂了這個庭期我想這個應該沒有相關的爭議我相信大法官這個憲法法庭會依照憲法跟相關法律的規定奪利來行使職權我在這裡就交於您就是我認為不管是法務部主管的這個檢查系統或是司法院主管的法院系統或者是大法官憲法法庭都應當避免用政治立場去干預"},{"start":476.284,"end":477.886,"text":"但同樣的也要就教於您,您是法學專業。"},{"start":498.342,"end":519.214,"text":"這週立法院最受關注的是選罷法的修法國民黨智庫昨天說實體從舊程序從新所以提高了罷免的門檻修法如果通過的話本屆就可以開始試用甚至現在已經進行中的謝國良的案子就可以試用請問法務部您這邊的法律見解如何"},{"start":520.457,"end":520.597,"text":"關於罷免"},{"start":544.5,"end":544.52,"text":"．吳思瑤議員"},{"start":569.548,"end":573.11,"text":"市長的說明您的看法跟我一致所謂實體重修程序重新在我看來選辦法要提高罷免門檻也好或者是要增加聯署的難度也好這都涉及人民權利的行使這都是實體呀"},{"start":593.118,"end":620.231,"text":"而且你要去擴充委員自己自利自肥然後去凌駕於保障人民權利我認為這是完全不通的所以您剛剛的解釋不管是中央法規標準法第18條重新從優之法例都是要採行對於人民有利之解釋對於人民權利的保障而且保障人民的信賴利益都是最高任何一個法律修法的基本原則也就是ABC 對不對"},{"start":620.991,"end":642.419,"text":"是這是我們一貫的理想好謝謝那讓我一點點時間下一頁今天的主題也就是要修民法的這個部分我想提案的委員都是要保障消費者從修法來下手下一頁那當然要杜絕融資公司巧立名目規避民法利率上限幾位委員不管是開記者會下一頁"},{"start":643.119,"end":647.001,"text":"．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出具體的修法．吳氏提出"},{"start":665.828,"end":677.391,"text":"所以委員提案了那不好意思我剛剛因為沒有在會議上我有另外的這個質詢那法務部對於如果你們的法務部的意見是認為還要在周延討論但如果不修這個法有什麼樣有效的手段可以來歸"},{"start":685.066,"end":685.086,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":701.181,"end":727.021,"text":"另外配套措施還是應該要加強對於這些金融受準金融的行為來做這個監理,強化他的監理因為剛剛稍早我們的召委又提示了很多具體的案例這個其實都未必直接跟利息有關因為他會巧立各種名目甚至用不同的契約形態甚至是這個複合的契約的形態同時跟很多的行為人都發生關係"},{"start":728.022,"end":728.042,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":755.815,"end":782.236,"text":"因為金管會對於融資業現在是適用公司法所以是經濟部在主管管轄所以確實在整個對於融資業的監理強度是不是足夠這本身是本期比較關切的核心下一頁我們來看看國際我去彙整出這個也是這個行政院消保處提供的資料還有外交部我去綜整出來的"},{"start":784.358,"end":809.454,"text":"國際多數的金融相關主管機關來管轄融資公司這一種的是多數日本的金融廳韓國金融管理委員會到新加坡加拿大法國盧森堡合國德國英國澳洲都是由金融監理機關來強化對於融資公司的監理事項那當然另外一類像美國義大利南非歐盟他是用央行或是其他機關來作為主理下一頁"},{"start":810.234,"end":833.81,"text":"所以我個人是認為如果要更去全面的去解決融資公司很多他巧立名目其他的作為的話當然修法是一個可以思考的但是對於融資公司管理是用專法或是在現行的法規裡頭用一個專章更明確的從源頭來管制這是我的觀點啦就教於次長"},{"start":834.711,"end":837.334,"text":"你們會有對案嗎?如果是要修民法?"},{"start":856.495,"end":879.332,"text":"這個不是修民法的問題不是我是說剛剛那個如果這個節目的話因為我們也在內部跟相關的專家學者來進行討論過了那麼我也把我們目前的這個方向跟委員所提的方向一致類似的方向來函詢各該主管機關就各行各業的意見那等他們回來之後我們會重整看是不是能夠提出一個完整的這個規定"},{"start":880.072,"end":881.816,"text":"我理解,我們後續希望有更長期的時間來彙聚更高的共識。謝謝次長,謝謝教委,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154490","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154490","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdb7da3503f94d9d4927d0a78c1009ae5ee8e3eb0bf88d021cce2e2fcc1480a81a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:09:00 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11:21:26","影片長度":"00:12:26","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:09:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:21:26+08:00","duration":746,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":620,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時9分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：張委員，你好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長早安。首先，我這次看金曲獎，看到在表演的時候有出現臺文，而且是正字，是正確的，我真的感到非常高興。但很不幸地，接下來我又看到了另外一個片段，同樣一段的表演卻出現了「快快快，喝酒麥K孩」，這個正字應該要寫成這個樣子，所以我想要瞭解因為其他的語言都有相關的主責單位，但文化部是臺語唯一的主責單位，非常需要大家謹慎地照顧我們的臺語。我只在想關於臺語的歌詞，雖然它可能是老歌的歌詞，大家過去對臺文不瞭解，可能也沒有機會學習，所以會用可能「空耳」或是火星文，或是我們自己認為的語言去把它拼寫出來。但是因為我們現在都在推廣臺文了，這樣的大型典禮其實也是一個很好的宣傳機會，我們是不是應該要確保寫出來的臺文是正確的，這樣才能讓大家知道臺語也是有文字的，才不會出現像之前可能有委員質詢這個問題。","所以，我想請教，因為接下來還有金鐘跟金馬，我們是不是可以記取這次的教訓，我有兩個建議。第一個，我們是不是可以，因為我們已經有專家學者的資料庫了，我們是不是可以請臺文專家來協助，如果有一些相關的歌詞是臺語的部分，我們可以提供正字，可以協助勘誤。再來，可能大家也會擔心這樣是不是有點不尊重原本的創作者，那是不是可以採取另外一個方式，就是我們把原歌詞跟正確的歌詞並陳，我不曉得部長您的看法如何？"],["李部長遠：因為這個部分涉及到原作者的著作權，如果能夠溝通，譬如說跟他商量，你願不願意改，他如果願意改，我想我們就改。因為剛剛委員提到用字、用語沒有標準這件事，剛好最近我們文化部成立了一個國家語言發展研究中心，想要做的事情可能這部分就是一個蠻重要的部分，就是各種不同的語言，它的華文用出來的時候，它的字是用哪一個字比較對，這是未來我們那個中心要研究的。剛剛講的歌詞的部分，的確歌詞會傳播得比較快，因為傳播會很快，所以委員剛剛講的部分，未來我們來商量一下，如果覺得它的用字不對，我們可以跟他討論。"],["張委員雅琳：我想可以從兩個方向，就是我們協助提供正確的歌詞，如果原作者還是希望堅持自己的原作詞，我也支持喔！但是我希望在他的原作詞下面我們可以放個括號，像我們可能之前有一些方式，我們用個括號去把正確的字也寫在下面，讓大家去理解原來正確的字是這樣子寫，好不好？我們往這個方向來努力，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。再來下一個就是有關不義遺址專法的法制進度，不義遺址保存條例草案在112年，也就是去年的5月9號已經送進行政院審竣，行政院審竣完也一年了，我想要瞭解大概什麼時候會送進立法院來審查呢？"],["李部長遠：據我所知，已經送到立法院了，那詳細情況，對不起，我們送到行政院了，還沒有送到立法院……"],["張委員雅琳：已經送到行政院，但是還沒有送到立法院。"],["李部長遠：我請對整個事情比較瞭解的王次長來跟你報告。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，後來在去年5月9號之後，由行政院政委主持會議，我們又經過了幾次條文的修正，在去年的12月28號有將最後修正的版本送進行政院，後來行政院跟立法院應該是在協調立法院排案的進度，這個部分我們就尊重行政院協調的結果，所以什麼時候會排進立法院，大概還是要看行政院跟貴院協調的最終時程而定。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我瞭解。我們之前也有跟文資局做一些討論，當時就有談到不義遺址的議題，因為在之前促轉會的時代，大家就一直講這件事情非常重要，如何保留不義遺址做一些人權教育來活化這些基地以傳承臺灣過去這一段過程的歷史。但是當時文資局告訴我們它沒有辦法，因為在沒有遺構、沒有建物這種狀況下，它很難去認定它是一個不義遺址，應該是說它很難做一些活化保存，所以它非常需要這個專法。可是現在聽起來，我們又沒有這個專法，針對這些潛在的不義遺址，現在還有這麼多處，我們已經有相關的審議會議來審定它的資格沒有錯，但是，到底我們要如何來活化它呢？我們沒有一個相關的計畫，不然就會變成爹不疼、娘不愛，它變成一個孤兒，到底誰來照顧它，可是它就是日漸地凋零，所以，我們是不是可以有一些相關的計畫，或者是用一些管理要點的方式來做相關的活化工作呢？"],["王次長時思：我分成幾個部分跟委員說明，第一個是已經審定的不義遺址42處，這42處因為已經指定了，已經確定它是不義遺址，所以這部分是以內容的充實、史料的完整為主。第二部分所謂潛在的部分，潛在的部分，現在雖然不義遺址保存條例這個法案還沒有通過，但是我們開始進行所謂的預審，我們就會先把這些潛在的不義遺址，有可能應該要認定為不義遺址的部分再做審定……"],["張委員雅琳：我瞭解，現在是有身分，但是活化的工作呢？"],["王次長時思：現在的問題是，因為不義遺址分屬於不同的地方，它如果是公有的，譬如說有的像這一次在臺南的民生綠園，那裡也有一個，它現在就在使用的狀態，就比較沒有活化的問題；有一些譬如它在國防的機敏地帶，那它就有沒有辦法活化的問題；那有一些是屬於私人的，那也有可能所有人不願意讓大家知道這是所謂的不義遺址，還要進行溝通，所以……"],["張委員雅琳：我理解，但這是一部分的問題，但是既有的也有一些是屬於國家單位的……"],["王次長時思：有，譬如說像景美人權園區，或者是像安康接待所，像這些我們已經把它列入活化的對象，就是我們把它變成是人權園區，或者是像綠島人權園區，這些其實也都是所謂的不義遺址。所以它大概有分不同的階段，如果是公有的、沒有爭議的、已經被審定的，歷史的資料也相對完整的，這個大概就會進入首部的活化……"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，我瞭解。我們就直接進入這個部分，就是相關的工作其實是人權館的工作，我也看到人權館從2012年到現在，你也可以從這張表格中看到，它的人權推廣活動的補助預算占整體的比例是逐年下降，我想要瞭解這個原因是什麼？我也知道有非常多其實是既有也沒有任何爭議的，但是我現在看到相關的內容還是非常地少，這是第一個，比例、經費的下降。第二個，不義遺址的教案，從2019年之後時光就凍結了，沒有再更新，而且高中、國中、國小都只有一個教案，我覺得這對於活化這件事情是相對地不積極，所以，我想要瞭解我們有沒有更積極的方式？從第一個，先幫我解釋一下預算的部分，然後還有作法。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，對於不義遺址的教案，其實要繼續開發中，這部分我們一定會積極來提升，不會讓它停留在只有3個教案。至於補助案的部分，據我的瞭解是這樣，它的補助案數量會因為補助的需求跟項目而減少，但是它的整體經費其實並沒有減少，它可能用在自辦，像自辦人權小旅行這類的方式，或者是做人權巡迴車的推廣，所以不一定是以補助的形式展現。但是如果有哪些做人權的，因為我們沒有補助而導致他沒有辦法繼續推動的，也請委員不吝提供我們這項資訊，我們會非常樂意來進行這一類的補助。"],["張委員雅琳：好。你剛剛講的那些，可能有部分是用促轉基金做的，對嗎？但是促轉基金到底有多少預算，可不可以也提供給我們，因為我們之前有跟你們索取但還沒有拿到……"],["王次長時思：好，我們提供給委員……"],["張委員雅琳：再請會後補給我們。"],["王次長時思：好，因為促轉基金是每年申請的，所以它的額度也都不相同。"],["張委員雅琳：對，因為你們從去年開始有申請，對不對？那實際的金額也提供給我們。但是促轉基金之外，我們可以回到這一張圖表來看，我們的人權推廣補助案整體的經費的確是下降了，但是你剛剛說有些是自辦的，那這些相關的費用也一起整理給我們，我們來看看到底是不是……因為民間有在反映，他們覺得補助案的金額變少了。"],["王次長時思：我們請人權館做一個總整理。"],["張委員雅琳：好。再來我想瞭解，因為剛剛有講到教案部分可以積極地處理，我想要瞭解大概規劃的進度是何時？"],["王次長時思：我們一樣可以提供給委員我們的規劃進度，因為教案的部分是我們在做人權推廣的一個主要的內容，因為他們現在做的比較多是把原有的教案複製提供給更多的學校，至於在內容的充實上，我想我們會持續來進行，就是除了去擴散學校以外，同時也在內容上增加更多的教案。"],["張委員雅琳：對，這件事情我真的非常希望大家可以重視，因為這個教案就是提供給老師們或是家長們，可以在家裡或在學校裡自己操作，可是如果都只有一個案子的話，變成說它在操作性上面難度非常高，可能要有不同的地點，比較多的內容跟方式，它才會比較好操作。"],["王次長時思：這個我們會來研議，它可能也跟我們所能夠掌握到的足以變成教案的內容會有關係，但這個我們一定盡力來做。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，回到中正紀念堂，為什麼我一直很強調教案這部分，因為其實我在民間也有在做教案，包含我自己也有做中正紀念堂的教案，或者還有剛剛有講到民間的徵件，我過去在民間都有在做這些事情。那我今天要講的中正紀念堂，就是當時我在做這個教案時，我們邀請了一些深藍的或是外省第二代的家庭，他們聽完我們的故事之後，他就講了這一段話，我覺得非常地重要。他說他雖然很早就知道蔣中正的真實版本，但當時改名叫自由廣場的時候，他會覺得是不是太沒事找事做了，改的名字也沒有原來的響亮，畢竟他是外省第二代，但是那天他聽我們講完整個走讀的故事之後，他突然覺得改名真的很重要，所以希望這裡可以成為一個兼具歷史的、有意義的，又親民的一個場地，所以這個教案其實就是在幫我們做很多很多民間的鬆動跟凝聚民間的共識，讓不同的視角可以一起來對話。所以這件事情真的是非常需要積極地來做，所以相關的一些計畫、規劃的內容，我們就在會後約個時間來詳細討論，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉，最後我快快講一句喔！中正紀念堂因為剛剛其實大家有非常多的爭議在講衛兵交接的儀式要如何進行，我這邊也可以提供一個想法供部長參考，當然要對威權致敬，這是一個非常荒謬的事情，現在大家在討論的是，它又是一個很重要的觀光儀式，就可能像是白金漢宮大概有做這種儀式，大家想要去看，但是我覺得我們是不是就應該把它訂定為就是一個觀光的表演，大家也可以來思考是不是就是一個觀光的表演，是不是需要用軍人來執行這件事情呢？還是像韓國景福宮、韓國的一些宮殿都有一些相關的表演，它就會有相關的一些時程、時間，在暴風雪、在酷暑的時候，他們就會暫停，就可以兼具到表演、觀光，但是也可以兼具到表演者的安全，提供給部長來做個參考，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢。"],["主席（張委員雅琳代）：我們邀請林宜瑾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞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Kacaw","徐富癸","林倩綺","林楚茵"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.28159375,"end":17.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.78346875,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.34159375,"end":43.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.61471875,"end":45.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.407843750000005,"end":48.141593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.479093750000004,"end":48.884093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.322843750000004,"end":52.478468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.40284375,"end":50.689718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.13659375,"end":82.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.190343750000004,"end":60.797843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.19159375000001,"end":79.84971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.00159375,"end":80.64284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.12346875,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.90284375,"end":128.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.28159375000001,"end":124.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.02346875,"end":142.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.21534375000002,"end":156.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.23534375,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.73221875000002,"end":169.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.70596875,"end":163.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.13971875000001,"end":168.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.74284375000002,"end":174.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.60284375,"end":178.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.63659375,"end":175.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.78784375,"end":204.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.58409375000002,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.87471875,"end":190.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.35534375,"end":192.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.37971875000002,"end":198.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.76346875000002,"end":201.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.29846875,"end":214.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.38971875000001,"end":216.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.92534375000002,"end":225.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.49784375000002,"end":229.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.68284375000002,"end":238.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.91471875000002,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.97346875000002,"end":233.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.09534375,"end":237.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.24659375000002,"end":268.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.00159375000004,"end":296.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.67659375,"end":300.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.72659375,"end":303.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.05096875000004,"end":315.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.21784375000004,"end":339.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.31971875000005,"end":364.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.42346875000004,"end":350.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.45721875000004,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.96346875,"end":351.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.99284375,"end":352.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.04346875000005,"end":352.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.88971875000004,"end":366.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.54346875000005,"end":392.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.90596875,"end":368.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.79784375,"end":385.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.61534375,"end":397.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.59784375000004,"end":419.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.06159375000004,"end":398.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.19346875,"end":466.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.19846875,"end":509.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.55471875,"end":522.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.83971875,"end":527.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.7209687500001,"end":526.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.1047187500001,"end":544.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.04284375,"end":550.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.1897187500001,"end":55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已經送進行政院審訊"},{"start":217.094,"end":236.552,"text":"這一個字不易以止我想要了解就是說已經也一年了大概什麼時候呢我們會送進立法院來做審查呢好 據我所知已經送到立法院了那詳細情況行政院 對不起我們說到行政院還不到立法院然後請那個承辦這個整個事情比較了解的黃社長來跟你報告"},{"start":240.287,"end":268.359,"text":"跟委員說明其實後來在去年5月9號之後大概我們在跟行政院由政委來主持會又經過了幾次的條文的修正所以在去年的12月28號有修到最後的版本進到行政院那後來行政院跟立法院應該是在協調立法院排案的進度那這個部分我們大概就尊重行政院協調的結果所以什麼時候會排進立法院大概還是要看行政院跟貴院協調的的最終時程來定定"},{"start":269.019,"end":295.744,"text":"好 我了解那我想就是說因為其實我們之前其實也有跟文資局來做一些討論那他就有講到不義遺址因為其實在之前的轉型正義 突轉會的時代大家就一直有講這件事情非常的重要如何保留這個不義遺址來做一些人權教育來活化這些基地都是傳承台灣過去這一個過程的一個歷史那但是當時文資局告訴我們說就是說因為不義遺址他沒有辦法因為在現在的他沒有遺構"},{"start":296.704,"end":320.113,"text":"他也沒有見誤這種狀況他很難去認定他是一個不移植他很難做一些活化保存應該是這樣講所以他非常需要這個專法可是現在聽起來我又沒有這個專法那我們針對這些潛在的不移植現在還有這麼多處我們已經有相關的審議會議來做審定他的資格沒有錯但是呢到底我們要如何來活化他呢我們沒有相關的一個計畫"},{"start":321.594,"end":339.069,"text":"不然就會變成爹不疼娘不愛她變成一個孤兒到底誰來照顧她可是她就日漸的凋零所以我現在是看到就是說我們是不是可以有一些相關的計畫的方式或者是用一些要點管理要點的方式來做這個相關的活化的工作呢"},{"start":339.389,"end":364.462,"text":"跟委員說明大概分成幾個部分第一個是已經審定的不移植42處那這42處因為已經建立了它的已經指定了已經確定它是不移植所以這個部分是以內容的充實史料的完整來為主那第二部分所謂潛在的部分那潛在的部分雖然不移植的這個法案還沒有通過但是我們開始進行所謂的預審我們就先把這些潛在的不移植有可能應該是變成不移植再做審定"},{"start":364.562,"end":391.423,"text":"但是活化的工作 身份有但是活化的工作呢現在的問題是因為現在的不移植分屬於不同的地方譬如說它如果是公有的譬如說有的像這一次在臺南的民生綠園那裡也有一個它現在就在使用的狀態就比較沒有活化的問題那有一些譬如它在國防的機敏地帶那它就有沒有辦法活化的問題那有一些是在私人的部分那它就也有說它可能不願意讓大家知道這是所謂的不移植還要進行溝通"},{"start":393.104,"end":417.766,"text":"這是一部分的問題,但是既有一些是比如說像集美人權園區或者是像安康接待所像這些我們就是已經把它列入所謂活化的內容就是說我們把它變成是人權園區或者是像綠島人權園區這些其實也都是所謂的不義遺址所以它大概有分不同的階段如果是公有的沒有爭議的然後已經被審定的歷史的資料也相對完整的這個大概就會進入首部的活化"},{"start":418.426,"end":444.486,"text":"好 沒關係 我了解齁 我了解喔但是我想 那我們就直接進到這一個就是說因為相關的工作其實是人權管的工作嘛那我也看到 就是人權管從2012年到現在你也可以看到這張表格我們它的人權推廣活動的補助預算占整體的比例是逐年下降那我想要了解這個原因是什麼如果我們在 因為其實我也知道有非常多是既有 其實也沒有任何爭議的但是我現在看到我們相關的內容其實還是非常的少"},{"start":445.527,"end":466.287,"text":"這是第一個,比例經費的下降第二個,不易移植的教案從2019年之後時光就凍結了沒有再更新而且高中、國中、國小都只有一個教案那我覺得在對活化這件事情是相對的不積極所以我想要了解說我們有沒有更積極的方式從第一個先幫我解釋一下預算的部分然後還有做法"},{"start":467.228,"end":482.723,"text":"根文說明對於不移植的教案這個部分其實要繼續的開發中我們這個部分一定會積極來做提升不會讓它停留在只有三個教案那至於補助案的部分據我的了解是這樣因為它的補助案它會因為補助的需求跟項目而減少"},{"start":483.664,"end":506.933,"text":"但是它的經費其實整體經費並沒有減少它可能用在自辦或者是像自辦旅行這一類的方式人權小旅行這一類的方式或者是做人權這個巡迴車的這個推廣所以它不一定是以補助的形式展現但是如果有哪些做人權的但是我們因為沒有補助而導致它沒有辦法進行推動的也請委員不吝提供我們這樣的資訊我們會非常樂意來進行這一類的補助"},{"start":509.574,"end":526.936,"text":"好,因為我想要,因為你剛剛講的那些部分,可能有部分是用促轉基金做的,對嗎?但是因為這個促轉基金到底有多少的預算可不可以也提供給我們?因為我們之前還沒有拿到,之前有跟你們說一句啦,那之後再匯報補給我們。好,因為促轉基金是每年申請的,所以它的額度也都不相同。"},{"start":527.656,"end":544.373,"text":"對對對那我就說你們從去年開始有申請嘛對不對那這個實際的金額也提供給我們但是我想說促轉基金之外我覺得我們可以回到這一張來看我們人權推廣補助案整體的經費的確是下降的但是你剛剛有說有些是自辦的那這些費用也相關的一起整理給我們我們來看看到底"},{"start":546.174,"end":566.081,"text":"民間是有在回應就是說他們覺得補助案的金變少了我們來請人權管做一個總整理好那再來就是說我想了解因為剛剛有講到教案可以來積極的處理那我想要了解大概規劃進度是何時我們一樣可以提供給委員我們的規劃進度因為這個教案的部分是我們主力的在做人權推廣的一個主要的內容"},{"start":566.991,"end":594.926,"text":"因為他們現在做的是比較多是把原有的教案複製提供給更多的學校那至於在內容的充實上我想這就是我們持續來進行就是除了去擴散學校以外同時也在內容上增加更多的教案對 因為我這個這件事情我真的非常的希望大家可以重視啦因為其實這個教案就是提供給老師們或是家長們可以讓在家裡或在學校裡自己操作嘛可是如果都只有一個案子的話變成它操作性上面難度非常高可能要有不同的地點"},{"start":596.647,"end":597.407,"text":"中正紀念堂教案"},{"start":621.234,"end":644.683,"text":"我過去在民間都有在做這件事情那我今天要講這個中正紀念堂就是當時我做這個教案我們邀請了一些來自於深藍家庭的或是外省第二代的家庭那他們聽完我們的故事之後呢他就講了這一段話我覺得非常的重要就是說他雖然很早就知道講中正的真實版本但當時改名叫自由廣場的時候他會覺得是不是太沒事早事做了"},{"start":646.072,"end":668.927,"text":"改的名字也沒有原來的響亮畢竟他是外省第二代但是那天他聽我們講完這整個走讀的故事之後他突然覺得改名真的很重要所以希望這裡可以成為一個兼具歷史有意義的又親民的一個場地所以這個教案其實就是在幫我們做很多很多民間的鬆動跟鄰居民間的共識讓不同的視角可以一起來對話"},{"start":670.788,"end":694.547,"text":"所以這件事情真的是非常需要積極的來做所以相關的一些計畫規劃的內容我們就在會後約個時間來詳細討論好嗎?好那最後抱歉就是我快快講一句就是說中正紀念談因為剛剛其實大家有非常多的爭議在講這個衛兵的這個交接的這個儀式到如何進行那我這邊也可以提供一個想法啦供部長來參考就是說"},{"start":696.768,"end":717.785,"text":"當然要對威權致敬這是一個非常荒謬的事情那現在大家討論說但是它又是一個很重要的觀光的一個儀式就很像是可能白金漢宮啊大陸這種儀式大家想要去看但是我覺得我們是不是就應該把它定定為它就是一個觀光的表演就是大家也可以來思考是不是就是一個觀光的表演"},{"start":718.725,"end":719.005,"text":"提供給部長來做個參考"}]}},{"id":"154488","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154488","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd626bdae5e50739d7cb3f5941fe168625e8e3eb0bf88d021cd83dd2eb1f7004fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:00:11 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17接軌，那麼我們的壽險業資本缺口到底是多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，為什麼在今年年底之前要定案第四階段的措施？這是要先讓大家確認在接軌日的時候未來長期的過渡目標，在這件事情還沒有定案之前，沒有辦法有明確的數字。再來，因為各家條件不同……"],["李委員彥秀：主委，我後面的題目還沒出來。從媒體上看到，無論是為了跟IFRS 17接軌，壽險業資金缺口將近有一兆元，對他們來說這點其實非常關鍵、非常重要，他們也非常關注這件事情。所以去年金管會才會提出發行SPV協助業者有多元的投資管道，壽險業者今年為了接軌，所以發行了很多債券，包括國泰人壽、南山、富邦、新光，這點看我的表格就非常清楚。國泰人壽發行500億債券，非常多，新光也發行了80億債券。我特別關注SPV，也就是國泰人壽在新加坡發行SPV，於6月27日發行6億元債券，但超額認購約三倍，讓其他壽險業者躍躍欲試，為了跟2026接軌，包括健全財務計畫在內，大家都跑到海外去發行債券。這件事情我相信主委心裡一定有想法，如果這些海外債券可以回到臺灣來發行是不是更好？關鍵是外資到臺灣來投資要扣15%的稅，這件事情怎麼克服？這就影響到你未來能不能在臺灣成立亞洲資產管理中心，後續到底怎麼做，主委，你的想法是什麼？作法到底是什麼？你有沒有作法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們希望壽險業強化資本，方法就來自於比如說現金的資本，另外一個就是類似次順位的這些債券，就是我們可能第一類或第二類的這些負債……"],["李委員彥秀：對，第二類的資本投資。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然國內的，其實它的胃納是有限的，比如說，這些購買的對象，我們也開放了海外的，因為對於我們資本或是……"],["李委員彥秀：對，但是這些海外的如果可以放在臺灣，然後我們可以不要扣它稅，我們有沒有其他的作法？你有沒有想法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個當然就是說，多元化的籌資，我們當然都是，凡是強化，我們都支持……"],["李委員彥秀：你要不要人家錢放在臺灣？外資錢留在臺灣，最大的、最具體的方法就是我們現在扣15%的稅，我們如何不要扣那麼多，或甚至是它可以接受的，這個當然牽涉到跨部會，譬如說財政部。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是、是。"],["李委員彥秀：但是我覺得還有一個方法，我可以提供主委，就是我們現在有國際保險業務，再給我1分鐘，我們有國際保險業務，如何把海外債券投資把它納入OIU，我覺得這是一個思考的模式跟方法，主委，你同意我的說法嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我可以來研究這件事情。"],["李委員彥秀：這個研究其實就牽涉到莊部長，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你請上來，我給你30秒時間。"],["主席：請莊部長簡單回答，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：簡單回答，因為現在我們國泰到新加坡去發行，我們也一樣收不到稅啊！但是我們如果透過OIU把它納進來的話，讓這些海外發行的債券回到臺灣發行的話，我覺得對於整個壽險業的錢留在臺灣會是一個利多，我們或許不要收到15%，收個2%、3%，你還是有增加稅收啊，部長，你瞭解我的意思嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我瞭解您說的，是、是、是。"],["李委員彥秀：所以要成就主委的亞洲金融資產管理中心，我們要有科技盾，我們要有矽盾，我們更要有金融盾，這個關鍵就在兩位身上，如果主委同意我的想法是你的工具之一，你可能有工具之二、之三，你慢慢來研究，這是你的專業，但是這個部分就要部長支持，部長，同意研究朝這樣方向來思考嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分可能經過金管會有一個具體的想法以後，我們再來做討論。"],["李委員彥秀：會支持嗎？會支持亞洲資本管理中心嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們要看具體……"],["李委員彥秀：你要不要支持臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之一？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個當然是支持，這當然是支持的。"],["李委員彥秀：那相關配合的配套，你就要多支持彭主委，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：現在請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大\n參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員\n會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢；二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.78784375,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.01096875,"end":20.922218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.18346875,"end":43.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.870968750000003,"end":25.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.58534375,"end":50.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.65596875,"end":60.190343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.211593750000006,"end":60.679718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.679718750000006,"end":60.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.696593750000005,"end":60.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.73034375,"end":67.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.07534375,"end":68.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.07096875,"end":82.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.68471875,"end":88.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.52346875,"end":91.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.53971875,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.45034375,"end":97.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.03659375000001,"end":105.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.20471875000001,"end":105.51659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.51659375000001,"end":105.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.55034375000001,"end":105.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.78659375000001,"end":106.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.37721875000001,"end":110.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.42784375000001,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.73971875000001,"end":109.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.43159375,"end":110.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.00096875000001,"end":112.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.27909375,"end":118.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.27409375,"end":118.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.52721875,"end":158.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.54409375,"end":118.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.26846875,"end":154.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.33596875,"end":154.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.63971875000001,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.84159375000002,"end":161.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.40659375,"end":173.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.97846875000002,"end":174.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.02909375000002,"end":185.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.09909375,"end":190.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.86659375000002,"end":188.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.05596875,"end":192.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.57034375,"end":197.97471875000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時候你未來長期過渡的目標這件事情現在還沒有定案之前是沒有辦法有個明確的數字再來就是因為各家的條件不同"},{"start":488.664,"end":511.884,"text":"主委,因為我後面的題目還沒出來,其實從媒體上的看到,我們無論是為了要跟IFRS7接軌,我們的受險業資金缺口將近有一兆元,這個對他們來說其實非常關鍵重要,對他們來說其實他們也都非常關注這件事情,所以去年我們金管會才會有提出我們發行這個SPV,"},{"start":514.866,"end":528.132,"text":"協助我們的業者有多元的投資的管道當然受請業者今年也為了接軌所以他們也發行很多的債券包括國泰人壽、南山富邦、星光看我這個表格就非常清楚國泰人壽這個發行債券到500億就非常多"},{"start":533.914,"end":545.698,"text":"這個部分其實包括星光也發行了80元的債券那特別有關注到SPV就是我們在新加坡發行SPV國泰人壽在6月27號發行了6億元的債券但是超額認購約3倍"},{"start":550.379,"end":559.587,"text":"也就是說這幾件這件事情也引起了其他受險業者要要遇事所以為了跟2026接軌包括競選他們財務計劃大家都跑到海外去發行債券這件事情"},{"start":566.093,"end":585.952,"text":"主委,我相信你心裡一定有想法,如果這些海外債券可以回到台灣來發行,是不是更好?但是關鍵是,外資到台灣來投資的話,它要扣15%的稅,那這個事情怎麼克服?這就影響到你未來能不能在台灣成立亞洲資產管理中心?"},{"start":588.215,"end":610.563,"text":"後續到底怎麼做?主委你的想法是什麼?做法到底是什麼?你有沒有做法?我們希望受險業強化資本方法就來自於比如說現金的資本另外一個就是我們類似次順位的這些債券就是我們可能第一類或第二類的這些對,第二類的資本投資"},{"start":611.503,"end":631.824,"text":"對那當然國內的其實上他有未納是有限比如說他這些購買的對象我們也開放了海外的因為對於我們資本或是對但是這些海外的他如果可以放在台灣然後我們可以不要扣他稅我們有沒有其他的做法你有沒有想法這個當然就是說"},{"start":632.825,"end":660.241,"text":"多元化的籌資我們當然都是反制強化你要人家錢放在台灣外資錢留在台灣最大的就是最具體的方法就是我們現在扣15%的稅我們如何不要扣那麼多或甚至是他可以接受的那這個當然牽涉到跨部會譬如說財政部但是我覺得還有一個方法我可以提供主委就是我們現在有國際保險業務再給我一分鐘我們有國際保險業務如何把"},{"start":661.081,"end":676.891,"text":"海外的債券投資把它納入OIU我覺得這是一個思考的模式跟方法主委你同意我的說法嗎我可以來研究這件事情對那這個研究其實就牽涉到莊部長對對不對那部長來部長你請上來請莊部長簡單回答謝謝"},{"start":681.761,"end":697.586,"text":"簡單回答因為現在我們國泰到新加坡去發行我們也一樣收不到稅啊但是我們如果把OIU把阿嬤進來的話讓這些海外發行的債券回到台灣發行的話"},{"start":698.766,"end":724.64,"text":"我覺得對於整個售銜業錢留在臺灣那是個利多我們或許不要收到15%收個2%、3%你還是有增加稅收啊部長你了解我的意思嗎?了解您說的是是是所以要成就主委的亞洲金融資產管理中心我們要有科技盾我們要有系盾我們更要有金融盾"},{"start":726.869,"end":749.375,"text":"這個關鍵就在兩位身上如果主委同意我的想法是你的工具之一你可能有工具之二、之三你慢慢來研究這是你的專業但是這個部分就要部長支持部長同意研究朝這樣方向來思考嗎我想這個部分可能我們經過金管會有個具體的一個想法以後我們再來做討論是"},{"start":751.642,"end":765.127,"text":"會支持嗎?會支持亞洲資產管理中心嗎?你會不會支持台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之一?這個當然是支持那相關的配合的配套你就要多支持彭主委謝謝現在請黃珊珊、黃偉文質詢"}]}},{"id":"154486","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154486","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd57cdce127d7869bf27d0a78c1009ae5ee8e3eb0bf88d021cb6d5a35e119f76195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:57:07 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{"start":625.606,"end":625.686,"text":"主席"},{"start":652.156,"end":665.992,"text":"委員會希望是由地方上有比較多修復人才來做然後另外我們會把優良傳統匠師納入國家文化資產的保存給他一種尊榮感因為我們會辦全國技術吸引年輕人參加這個競賽"},{"start":668.655,"end":697.816,"text":"因為我們建立一個回訊制度就是在工地負責人的技術這些人員再回來受訓就是謝謝委員剛剛提的那個的確是我們最近面臨很大的問題所以我們也一直在開會尤其是現在因為少子化的關係所以其實包含我們的科系能不能夠招滿這些學生或者這些學生他們在畢業之後是不是真的能夠投入這個台灣古今修復的一個能力的行業其實這次都需要很快速的能夠"},{"start":698.336,"end":698.456,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154485","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154485","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd8df886e3675a71a7266d74c0b9571b08e8e3eb0bf88d021ce1b2bb67ee2f385d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:55:27 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我們來看一下齁"},{"start":119.887,"end":141.096,"text":"新北地檢署通知移民署禁止出國及暫時留置的公文上面註明入出國暫時留置的時候需要減負G票第一年的銀本以G體等強制處分作為移民法六十四條第一項第五款暫時留置的法律依據新北地檢署這樣的法律見解同不同意"},{"start":141.681,"end":146.424,"text":"這會牽涉到一個非常直接的問題因為當初新北地檢署他們要求要放一個G票在海關"},{"start":164.116,"end":191.355,"text":"有沒有放G票的影本在海關有放G票的影本在海關但是放了G票的影本在海關以後發生了什麼事情發生了人到海關的時候還是把他放了還是把他放了讓當初所簽發的那張G票毫無意義你簽發G票就是不讓他出去嘛人準備要走的時候去執行G票嘛"},{"start":192.694,"end":220.029,"text":"但結果現實上洗錢大戶到海關的時候人還是放走了這兩個層次的問題一個層次的問題是G票它的時效可以有多長也就是我簽一張G票出去簽一張G票出去我不用健行不經合法傳話無證當留不到場我就直接可以用強制處分把人帶走簽一張G票它的效期有多長"},{"start":222.499,"end":243.929,"text":"應該沒有明文的規定沒有明文的規定那法務部在政策上面認為一張G票的效期不應該超過多久這樣才會符合有關於憲法人身自由保障的意旨還是法務部的立場也認為說不需要有時效G票可以一年可以一個月可以五年"},{"start":245.711,"end":245.831,"text":"主席"},{"start":262.586,"end":284.731,"text":"所以我想我們未來在法律上要不要明文規定相關的條件要件準則我們回去再來研議我希望法務部就這件事情上面兩件事嘛第一個在法律上面就效期需不需要做限制第二個在政策面上面因為通常發G票就是要去帶人了啦"},{"start":287.652,"end":306.28,"text":"結果人沒有帶到然後G票我如果簽一個月三個月五個月那個對於整個G票強制處分的效力對人身自由的侵害是非常大的那也正是因為這個樣子喔所以之前我剛剛在講的把洗錢大戶放走"},{"start":307.486,"end":328.553,"text":"明明就放G票到海關了結果人還是讓他跑了人還是讓他跑了這件事情在責任上面的追究我之前不斷的請教新北地檢署說你們有沒有重範圍屍的行政調查什麼時候要結束然後我到3月的時候新北地檢署公開講"},{"start":329.963,"end":342.737,"text":"他沒有辦法提供行政調查的結果這件事情從發生到現在已經一年多了我上一次去質詢部長的時候部長說會督導會了解目前督導了解的情況如何"},{"start":343.905,"end":346.588,"text":"新北地檢署整整拖了一年多用各式各樣的理由說他們還在做行政調查"},{"start":363.547,"end":378.204,"text":"我是覺得非常匪夷所思啦非常的匪夷所思啊連效率很慢的監察院都調查出來了結果我們的新北地檢署的效率啊比監察院還要差比監察院還要差的結果我上次"},{"start":379.421,"end":403.43,"text":"問了部長部長說他要去了解所以你們今天的答案是什麼今天的答案是新北地檢根本沒有做行政調查所以要高檢署重新調查嗎他們也是交給新北地檢在調查當中所以還需要多久我們會盡快來促請盡快是多久這太扯了吧今天如果事情只發生一個月我要他交行政調查報告出來對他們不公平嘛"},{"start":404.468,"end":404.588,"text":"主席"},{"start":422.717,"end":442.799,"text":"下一個法務部網路流量記錄這牽涉到了有關於詐欺犯罪我們要有效的去偵查不管是詐欺犯罪重大的犯罪我們需要去查IP的位置等等的網路流量記錄在立法的政策上面我們是支持的但我看到法務部回的函說"},{"start":444.861,"end":460.126,"text":"建制的費用超過上百億我看了非常的正經啊所以我上次請教部長說你們那個一百億的基準跟三大業者開會的資料怎麼收費的他說一個禮拜之內要提供我到今天還沒有收到"},{"start":461.472,"end":476.824,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分在行政院內跨部會討論的時候是由警政署來負責評估調查局是負責協助而已我們有含請警政署提供相關的明細但他們一直都還沒有提供"},{"start":478.125,"end":500.803,"text":"所以在怠惰是內政部嘛但請市長回去轉告部長做承諾的人是他請他趕快協調把東西交出來要不然我們是希望啦7月16號以前要完成立法但如果這些基礎資料沒有掌握的話我們就匆匆完成立法的話恐怕不負責任嘛"},{"start":501.408,"end":502.19,"text":"因為某個程度上我們一點頭過了上百億喔"},{"start":510.999,"end":517.165,"text":"我希望法務部在政策上面要責成我們的高檢署甚至有必要的話跟我們的檢察總長"},{"start":534.742,"end":555.063,"text":"江湖的協調要徹底的掃蕩這種犯罪徹底掃蕩什麼犯罪我們第一線的軍人調查員他們需要用的防彈背心來我把它列舉一下這個是光過去這幾年曾經發生過的弊案"},{"start":557.44,"end":570.25,"text":"防彈的纖維部因為利潤非常的高啊利潤非常的高裡面有一堆不肖的業者已經形成了一個集團了從2017年2018年2019年2020年2021年甚至到現在2024年的今天"},{"start":577.779,"end":601.113,"text":"2024年的今天這個犯罪集團針對攸關我們軍人安全第一線執法人員安全防彈背心抗彈纖維部弊端一堆啊弊端一堆現在我這個喔是只有把它列出來已經成為公開資訊了年年設斃啊我們進一步的去看"},{"start":603.042,"end":615.587,"text":"從之前現在有被判刑確定的一位公衛公司的負責人叫做楊春海當然還有其他的共犯牽涉其中用其他的人頭公司微標的微標偽造"},{"start":618.174,"end":623.696,"text":"委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":640.382,"end":669.439,"text":"第一線有很多官兵弟兄他們的安全因此這件事情我希望法務部跟高檢署協調有必要甚至跟最高檢察署協調針對針對這樣一個有計劃有組織在嚴重影響我們國軍安全的弊案必須要徹查不要因為牽涉到的廠商後台很硬"},{"start":670.643,"end":671.404,"text":"我相信啊!"},{"start":691.601,"end":716.201,"text":"我相信我也希望是這個樣子但今天我是一個善意的提醒跟次長講完了以後法務部啊可以回去清查我剛剛所講的那些案子有一些是公共工程委員會抓到弊端的停權的不給錢的結果我們相關的不管是微標的還是偽造變造文件的"},{"start":717.526,"end":739.589,"text":"關於這宗案件現在拖延了很久我做了完整的表給法務部做參考今天是剛開始因為我一定給你們時間做準備那下一次部長來的時候我會深入的針對在整個犯罪集團的掃蕩上面是不是有認真的徹查跟偵辦來請教部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154483","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154483","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd158b243c81fbf748cb3f5941fe168625e8e3eb0bf88d021cf8672e411591f1865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:46:27 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10:59:17","影片長度":"00:12:50","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:46:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:59:17+08:00","duration":770,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時46分）謝謝主席，請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委早。"],["彭主任委員金隆：早。"],["王委員鴻薇：這兩天金融圈有一個大新聞，就是傳出來國泰金控的三太子蔡鎮宇現在並不在金控，但是他一次準備要買兩家銀行：一個京城銀行，一個安泰銀行，當然就引起了金融圈的騷動。我想請問一下，因為他要買這兩家銀行，依法一定要跟金管會申請……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["王委員鴻薇：目前有沒有任何的接觸？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們還沒有收到任何的申請，我們也沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：你有聽說嗎？在這之前，你有聽說這件事嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們是看到媒體報導知道這件事情……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你是看媒體報導才知道這件事情？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：而到目前為止沒有任何申請？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，還沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。第二件事，蔡鎮宇如果一次要買兩家銀行的話，有沒有違反金管會對於金金分離的政策，以現在來看的話？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告一下，第一個，如果任何一個法人或自然人要取得金控公司的股權達一定比率以上，我們有大股東適格性的規範，它有不同的比率、不同的要求。剛才委員提到的金金分離會落實在我們幾個法規的規定，比如你今天是A公司的負責人，比如你是A公司的董事，你應該是不可以同時……"],["王委員鴻薇：你不能再當另外一家公司……"],["彭主任委員金隆：除非是比如在金控下面有特別法律的排除以外，那就要看未來他是用什麼樣的方式取得這樣的過程才能夠來判定，現在判定其實還言之過早，他用什麼方式取得這個，因為通常……"],["王委員鴻薇：他非常有可能用控股公司的方式，他不至於用個人吧。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這就要看他整個申請案背後是怎麼樣來申請。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，因為時間的關係，所以如果今天蔡鎮宇真的要買兩家銀行，而這兩家銀行目前狀況也都還好，其實我們也是鼓勵合併，但是他有可能會違反我們金金分離相關政策，所以我們在這部分還是會做嚴審，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金金分離是一個概念，就跟上次在這邊報告過的產金分離也是這個概念，當我真的要落實在法令的時候，它會很具體地成為法規裡面規範的內容。每個人對比如產金分離、金金分離的想法不一樣，但是我們執法單位一定是按照規定。我的意思是，未來先會處理股權的購買，就是大股東適格性的審核；再來第二個，當取得以後，他們各自……"],["王委員鴻薇：他一定要公開吧，他現在不能私下收購？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個就是要看他用什麼樣的形式……"],["王委員鴻薇：可是現在如果訊息出來的話，他應該要做公開的吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：站在主管機關，我們會看到正式的申請文件，然後……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為時間關係，我覺得這件事情是剛剛有一個訊息，現在看起來，第一個就是有關金金分離的政策；第二個，因為他現在其實並不是金控的董監事，某一個程度因為他現在……現在大概他為什麼會那麼有錢，是因為房地產的關係，所以這部分會不會也是你們比較特別考量的地方？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，現在都是一些臆測或報載的內容，其實不管是根據銀行法、大股東適格性的規範，都非常、非常清楚地規定必須陳送各種的資料，這部分我們就按照那個情況才能判斷剛剛講的內容。而且比如我們對資金的來源在……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們不會因為他現在是以做房地產，然後對這個案子特別地謹慎，會不會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的大股東適格性裡面，我記得他必須揭露購買資金的來源。"],["王委員鴻薇：要揭露購買資金來源？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：OK。另外，其實在市場上除了剛才講的最新訊息，另外一個就是新光金的合併問題，這個也已經吵吵嚷嚷了很久。在主委上任之初，我看媒體也有訪問過你，你說你是樂見金控整併的，你也有4個條件樂見金融整併，其實那個時候大概都是以新光金為主。我在這邊要特別提到的，就是您提到的不管是競爭力、法令規範、市場穩定等等，我覺得也都非常合理，但是小股東的權益我認為是非常、非常重要的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為在合併的過程裡面，可能是用洽特定人或者種種的因素，當然我們最不希望看到的是政治性的因素。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然。"],["王委員鴻薇：說實在，現在台新金的獨董名單裡面也出現了前經濟部部長，但是我們最重視的是應該還是小股東的權益，主委，您同不同意？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我以前有在會裡面跟委員報告過，其實比如我們在金控公司的合併，舉例來說，根據金控法第十八條、第二十六條，都要經過股東大會的決議，才能作成兩個法人的意思表示、決議。股東大會本來就是一個股東民主的場合，這個就是要通過股東大會，這是一個前提要件，這個就是我們常常講的透過這部分照顧到小股東，而不是用少數的股東可以決定這樣的問題……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，這非常重要。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想還會回到法制的結構去。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以小股東權益的部分，希望金管會能夠幫我們把關。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，除了股東，消費者也是。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，沒有錯。另外，主委，最近經濟日報做了一系列專題，有人特別介紹給我看，其中特別談到金管會7月1日成立20年，我當記者的時候，那時候剛成立揭牌，我還去採訪……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，20年了。"],["王委員鴻薇：一晃也就20年了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，好快。"],["王委員鴻薇：真的非常快。不過我現在要給主委看一個其實並不好看、慘不忍睹的數字，也就是臺灣的全球金融中心指數，大家可以看到，這十幾年來我們整個排名是節節下滑，以主委現在所接棒的2024年來看，我們的排名已經掉到73名，如果我們以2010年最好的19名來看的話，你可以看到2024年我們的排名真的是已經下滑到慘不忍睹了。也就是說，經過20年之後，現在的金管會及現在的主委，你們所面臨的挑戰事實上是更嚴峻的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是某一個程度的好處是什麼呢？我不曉得現在是不是谷底，如果你在谷底，進步的空間就會比較大一點；如果你在顛峰的話，你就隨時擔心會不會再下滑。在這裡面特別提到，我們來看，剛才我們特別講到銀行的整併、金控的整併，我也看到他們的專題裡面特別提到，在20年前本國銀行49家，壽險公司28家；但是經過了20年，銀行是38家，壽險21家。所以我們雖然鼓勵銀行整併、金控整併，事實上臺灣有很多是家族性的，他們可能覺得還是要自己做老闆，不願意去跟人家整併，但是在某一個程度上，當規模太小、沒有辦法達到一定規模的時候，競爭力就有限。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以放諸四海，跟鄰國、一些金融中心相較，因為我們的規模太小，所以我們的競爭力也受到了影響。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想主委應該同意我剛才上面所講的話吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金管會的努力應該是持續的，這個評比我們有注意到，這個評比其實有很多指標，對於任何一個評比，我們都虛心檢討，但是每個評比都有其特色，比如剛剛委員指正的，我們的銀行家數減少並不多，實際上，我們的基層金融業確實少掉很多。再來它可能忽略了一點，就是我們有金控公司制度的成形，這一點確實改變臺灣金融市場的競爭力，這是很明顯的，只是這個指標裡面並沒有考慮到這一點，任何一個評比我們都虛心接受。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們還是努力啦！好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，誠如剛剛委員講的20年過去了，金管會會迎向下一個20年，我想時機……我們會好好努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：非常好！再來看壽險，我們今天主要是討論壽險資金，我們看到這20年來壽險業的資產規模確實增加非常非常多，與20年前相比，我們的資金規模增加了6.5倍，這也是我們為什麼要討論壽險業資金如何導入參與公共建設。關於這一點我用一點點時間講一下我的看法，老實說，你沒有辦法把牛牽到河邊去要求牠一定要喝水，一定要那個水是好喝的，那個牛是飢渴的，對不對？今天包含財政部、金管會或央行都在，有一點很重要，就是政府是不是能夠對於哪些可以引進我們的壽險業、金融業資金導入的，你要有一個好的產品出來，比如社會住宅。社會住宅是政府的政策，不管是前面的蔡總統或者現在的賴總統，它確實需要大量的資金，我記得當時花敬群次長在這邊還說要針對社宅發綠色債券，結果改朝換代之後，沒有人再提綠色債券了。","如果我們要把資金導入到社宅，那你要有產品出來，如果國發會或行政院希望導入到長照、AI產業、社宅，甚至交通建設，就應該把這些產品拿出來，否則我們只有說你們去投資、你們去投資，他要往哪裡去投資，對不對？你想想看前瞻建設8年8,800億，我們都覺得這真的是一個天文數字，然後被我們罵到臭頭，編列特別預算造成財政負擔。可是大家想想看，如果前瞻預算能夠提高自償率，有穩定的自償率何須再去編列8,800億的特別預算，壽險業的資金有36兆，它拿出一部分絕對可以彌補8,800億，我們不要說8,800億，我們就說一半，你只要有一定的自償率。如果政府只是天天喊我們要把這個資金導入、導入、導入，你沒有產品，而且你推出來的這些建設的自償率都極低，甚至要100年後才能回本，我是老闆我也不敢去投啊！我真的去算過，那些前瞻預算100年後才能回本，都不曉得那個財務規劃是怎麼規劃的。所以我覺得當行政院在討論的時候，你們應該大聲的跟他們說請你們設計出產品，請你們把自償率搞好一點，才能夠導入，否則說難聽一點，這些根本就是賠錢貨的，你要怎麼讓人家去投資呢？以上是我簡短的看法，因為我們未來還會有很多的討論，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：大會報告，因為股市已經如彭主委一個月前來所講的，今天是2萬3,000點，站穩2萬點，1萬點的時候我有請大家吃雞排、喝珍奶，為了要兌現我的承諾，11時30分的時候我們會準備雞排加珍奶請大家享用，更期盼股市站穩2萬點，未來打拚經濟有亮點，繼續往上拚！","接著我們再三位質詢，到王世堅委員。我們11點半會休息大概25分鐘，接續再繼續質詢。","下一位質詢請李彥秀李委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福"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的,不管是競爭力、法律規範等等、市場穩定,我覺得也都非常合理。但是,小股東的權益,我認為是非常非常重要的。因為在合併的過程裡面,它可能是用恰恰特定人,或者它有一些種種的因素,當然我們最不希望看到的是政治性的因素。因為說實在,"},{"start":297.425,"end":315.06,"text":"現在臺新京的這個獨董名單裡面也出現了我們的前經濟部長但是我們最重視的應該還是小股東的權益那麼主委您同不同意當然比如說我剛才以前有在這個會裡面跟委員報告過"},{"start":316.181,"end":335.715,"text":"其實比如說我們在金空公司的合併比如舉例我們金空法18條、26條它都要經過一個股東大會的決議才能做成兩個法人的意思表示決議股東大會本來就是一個就是股東民主的場合這個就是要通過的股東大會這是一個前提要見"},{"start":336.856,"end":346.603,"text":"這個就是我們想說這個透過這個部分照顧到小股東而不是說用一個少數的股東可以決定這個問題我想回到法制的結構去所以這個小股東的權益的部分希望在機管會這邊能夠幫我們把關當然除了股東消費者也是是沒有錯"},{"start":357.89,"end":375.955,"text":"另外那個主委最近其實經濟日報做了一系列專題有人來特別介紹給我看那特別談到金管會7月1號成立20年我想我那時候當記者的時候那時候剛成立接牌我還去採訪那一晃也就20年了"},{"start":377.535,"end":377.795,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":403.892,"end":418.368,"text":"調到73名如果我們以當時我們2010年最好的19名來看的話你可以看到2024年我們的排名是真的是已經滑到真的慘不忍睹了啦吼"},{"start":419.491,"end":434.651,"text":"所以在這個部分也就是說現在的金管會經過20年後現在的金管會還有現在的主委你們所面臨的挑戰事實上是更嚴峻的啦但是某一個程度好處是什麼呢因為你我不知道是不是現在是谷底啦"},{"start":435.031,"end":453.168,"text":"您在谷底您的進步空間就會比較大一點如果您在巔峰的話您就隨時在擔心您會不會再下滑那在這裡面特別提到我們來看就說剛才我們特別講到銀行的整併、金控的整併那麼我也看到他們的專題裡面特別提到在20年前本國銀行49家、受險公司28家"},{"start":459.454,"end":461.075,"text":"但是經過了20年銀行是38家受險21家所以我們雖然在鼓勵這樣的一個銀行診病、金控診病事實上可能以臺灣因為我們很多是家族性的"},{"start":474.56,"end":502.937,"text":"他們可能覺得還是要自己做老闆不願意去跟人家診病但是呢在某一個程度上當你規模太小的時候沒有辦法能夠達到一定規模的時候你的競爭力就有限所以我們放豬四海我們可能跟我們的鄰國跟一些金融中心因為我們的規模太小所以呢我們的競爭力也受到了影響所以我想這個主委應該同意我剛才上面所講的話吧"},{"start":504.037,"end":530.251,"text":"剛才就是說金管會的努力應該是持續的這個評比我們有注意到這個評比其實它很多指標就任何一個評比我們都虛心的去檢討但是每個評比都有它的特色比如說剛剛委員指正就是說我們的銀行加速減少並不多但實際上我們很多的基層金融業確實少掉很多再來就是它可能忽略一點就是我們有個金控公司制度的成型"},{"start":530.991,"end":553.587,"text":"這一點的話確實改變了臺灣金融市場的競爭力我想這是很明顯的只是說他在指標裡面並沒有考慮到這一點我想任何一個這個我們都虛心接受但是呢我們還是努力啦當然當然當然就是承諾該委員講20年過去了那金管會不會迎向下一個20年我想時機我們會好好努力好非常好"},{"start":554.207,"end":554.347,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":574.227,"end":578.41,"text":"那麼所以這也就是為什麼討論說受險業的資金如何去導入做我們的公共建設那但這一點老師說啦我用一點點時間講一下我的看法其實呢這個你沒有辦法把牛牽到河邊去一定要求他喝水因為你一定要那個水是好喝的"},{"start":596.984,"end":614.938,"text":"這個牛是饑渴的對不對所以在這一點其實我們今天包含財政部、金管會或央行我們有點很重要就是我們的政府是不是能夠去對於有哪一些可以引進我們的受險業、金融業的資金導入的你要有一個好的產品出來"},{"start":619.201,"end":631.752,"text":"比如講我們講說社會住宅社會住宅是政府的政策不管是前面的蔡總統或者現在的賴總統那他確實需要大量的資金我記得當時花敬群次長在這邊還說要針對社宅啊他來發這個綠色債券"},{"start":637.597,"end":637.617,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":660.487,"end":681.234,"text":"AI產業、社宅甚至交通建設你就應該把這些產品拿出來否則我們就說你們去投資你們去投資他往哪裡去投資啊 對不對你想想看我們前瞻建設8年8800億我們都覺得哇真的是一個天文數字啊然後被我們罵到臭頭"},{"start":682.774,"end":682.894,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":700.421,"end":714.988,"text":"根本他拿出一部分就絕對可以彌補這8800億我們必須說不要8800億我們就一半吧對不對你只要有一定的自償率所以如果我們的政府只是天天喊我們要把這個資金導入導入導入"},{"start":716.169,"end":735.445,"text":"那你沒有產品啊而且你的自償率你推出來的這些建設自償率都極低甚至呢要100年後才能回本請問一下哪一個我是老闆我也不敢去投啊我真的去算過那些前瞻預算100年後才能回本呢都不曉得那個財務規劃是怎麼規劃的所以我覺得這一點當我們去討論到行政院討論我覺得你們應該大聲的跟他們說請你們設計出產品請你們把這自償率搞好一點"},{"start":744.492,"end":744.712,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"154480","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154480","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd220bb0859a274aa0266d74c0b9571b08d15f5ccb8d26769b8a3d5adc657703f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:47:31 - 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我請文化部部長好 有請部長"},{"start":16.497,"end":22.22,"text":"吳委員你好部長好大家都很關心我們這一屆金曲獎典禮的辦理那一天我也在現場觀賞從頭做到尾那我要坦言說因為在典禮進行的過程當中我沒有太多時間在看手機我蠻專注在欣賞表演所以直到典禮結束我們司長"},{"start":38.669,"end":39.79,"text":"大眾對於當時巴奈在台上的發言我們的"},{"start":59.588,"end":81.177,"text":"關網可以說是官方的臉書第一時間沒有完整的結錄其實大家有很多的質疑認為說這個是不是涉及到政治的審查那包含剛剛部長的回答以及文化部第一時間的說明我們知道說這不是經過一個內容實質審查造成的結果可是我還是要說"},{"start":81.977,"end":103.773,"text":"我們確實有要檢討之處也許部長你還記得上一次也是在這個地方我正在跟你討論也就是我們文化部所俠館的台灣館的抄襲事件在社群平台上面的發布當時我就提醒文化部現在這個時代每一篇小編的發文都等同於文化部的新聞稿"},{"start":105.609,"end":127.632,"text":"大眾會認為這是我們文化部的態度以及立場所以當時也請文化部去進行了盤點究竟我們有多少的社群平台帳號你們在6月17號回覆給我的公文當中來說明現在文化部所屬的社群帳號有三種一種是官方社群一種是為了推廣業務使用第三種也就是各類獎項我想就包括這次金曲獎當中"},{"start":129.013,"end":132.054,"text":"所以我還是要問這個重點是在於流程當時我有強力的要求部長你們要去建立這個發文、審文然後刊出的這個流程我們這一次事件發生是當天晚上的9點23分PO出了第一篇文章那因為內容是揭露的因為每一個得獎人你們都是揭露發言但是因為他的發言內容有涉及到了政治"},{"start":155.382,"end":175.504,"text":"所以當你選擇刊登或不刊登其實它本身確實是一種主觀上面的認定所以大家都開始質疑了為什麼有些被刊登有些沒有被刊登那我想問第一篇發文有沒有經過我們文化部的承辦人員或是你們相關內部人的審核或者同意"},{"start":176.505,"end":177.165,"text":"所以在發出的時候我們文化部沒有任何人看過可以確定"},{"start":204.779,"end":224.951,"text":"好部長但是你們在6月17號回覆給我的公文就是我過去詢問你們文化部對於我們所管轄的這些帳號社群帳號你們建立的SOP流程是什麼你們告訴我說以上我剛所上述的三種帳號包含了辦理各類獎項社群這三種發文都須經過機關內主責單位同意發布"},{"start":233.991,"end":237.893,"text":"部長,我的理解有錯誤嗎?好,我想請次長解釋一下"},{"start":253.191,"end":253.831,"text":"部長,之所以要建立SOP流程"},{"start":280.896,"end":286.735,"text":"就是你不能有太多的例外嘛你討論每個都是個案每個都是例外我們不需要流程啦"},{"start":287.978,"end":313.08,"text":"對 對"},{"start":314.201,"end":316.545,"text":"所以我們這一個流程什麼時候可以徹底的檢討?是"},{"start":321.513,"end":325.456,"text":"我還是要講說我認為這件事情的嚴重性因為我也去參加過我們文化部跟北流高流一起推動的記者會我們現在很大的一個任務就是要把我們台流台灣的影視音人員及產業"},{"start":349.617,"end":349.637,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":367.823,"end":385.296,"text":"這是我們的文化軟實力的其中之一演唱會它絕對不只是臺上的表演者整個團隊都非常的重要那我們這次的承辦廠商臺視也有發表一個公開的聲明其中有兩點我認為是很重要也希望文化部後續要持續來督促的"},{"start":386.357,"end":388.16,"text":"一是有來說明這次的影響承辦公司出了哪些技術層次的錯誤。二是台視提到了未來對於協力廠商會更加的嚴謹。"},{"start":400.714,"end":401.694,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":421.42,"end":421.46,"text":"吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員"},{"start":446.367,"end":471.727,"text":"這個事情其實講了很多年關鍵卡在國防部那最近國防部表達說他不堅持不堅持這個絕對不能動那就給了我們一個可以討論的空間我前面也講過對於中央紀念館最重要的是未來的到底我們要把它變成一個怎麼樣的東西可是在目前大家最關心的就是對於威權對於去"},{"start":473.14,"end":473.16,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":483.362,"end":511.371,"text":"已經被討論了很久那最近我非常積極的跟國防部已經討論了很多遍到底他們要怎麼樣改成另外一種方式在中正經常的廣場或者是考慮這些已對他們的動線觀眾的看法已經非常多次了我想雖然我們本來是轉型正義的會議是在10月份我個人希望快一點有決定然後做出一個讓大家覺得還算滿意的一個結論"},{"start":513.027,"end":538.781,"text":"是 這個三軍是不是要取消重慶儀式這當然國防部的看法至關重要這其實文化部也無法決定但是你們主管的是整個園區啊因為現在有一種討論是說把他們移到廣場也可以來促進我們的觀光但是我想要講的是國軍是不是最適合來做文化展演推動觀光的主體呢因為最近我們國防部才在討論取消這個"},{"start":541.98,"end":551.622,"text":"演習的劇本取消踢正部就是要進行國軍裡面的形式主義的廢除需要讓他們是朝向更有功能性的實戰來訓練所以呢在我們的文化部的兩廳院廣場裡面其實我們過去也有相當多的藝文演出也有商業合作但是它不如兩廳院內部我們是一整年檔期通通排滿的我認為我們對於這個兩廳院的廣場"},{"start":571.772,"end":572.993,"text":"吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員"},{"start":597.328,"end":618.787,"text":"是,但是我要講的是整個我們園區的轉型不能只靠去移動我們這個議隊的位置我們文化部本身我知道你們最近這個關於中正紀念堂一百種想像展覽在各地在巡迴演出那個展覽我也去看過我覺得非常好因為我們園區本來就應該要更天際我們當代的都市計畫"},{"start":620.248,"end":620.328,"text":"最後的..."},{"start":631.755,"end":654.634,"text":"一分鐘的時間是今天我們也要關心的是文資保存那我的選區呢臺北市中正萬華區是佔了臺北市的古蹟大概有將近一半那一般我們想到說歷史古蹟哪裡最多都會以為是我們昭緯選區臺南結果呢其實一算下來其實臺北才是最多的尤其中正萬華區又佔了一半"},{"start":656.736,"end":673.249,"text":"部長因為過去你也在臺北市文基會也服務過所以我想要有一個提議是在我們的中正區裡面因為古蹟非常的多那有非常多中央的文化場館比如說我們臺博館我們時博館那也有很多我們臺北市政府俠館的文化場館我認為這裡非常適合來推動一個國家級的藝文郎道"},{"start":678.012,"end":695.59,"text":"例如說我們各個單位在舉辦管方的活動的時候是不是可以結合社區或是不是可以不是有單點的而是點加點可以連串連成一個一個帶狀的形成這個部分我希望我們中央文化部是不是可以跟我們地方政府臺北市文化局有更積極的討論未來可以來推動相關的合作"},{"start":698.899,"end":719.701,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":719.821,"end":719.941,"text":"吳沛憶委員"}]}},{"id":"154473","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154473","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd4da21d50badb14a7cb3f5941fe168625d15f5ccb8d26769b47817b53da4fb3745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:35:04 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{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.3403437500001,"end":667.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.2678437500001,"end":673.5459687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.029,"end":6.485,"text":"各位官員、各位委員、大家早主席我想請金管會彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":14.087,"end":36.393,"text":"針對如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設：加速建設之推動保險業資金作為穩定可觀的資金來源應該能夠在公共建設當中發揮更大的作用目前保險業資金參與公共建設的程度非常有限僅佔可運用資金的0.42%"},{"start":38.374,"end":55.865,"text":"那目前我國保險業資金主要投資在债券、股票、不動產等傳統資產而參與公共建設的比例非常低那這主要是因為現行法規對於保險資金運用的限制還有公共建設項目的投資風險還有回報週期比較長這些原因"},{"start":61.109,"end":76.67,"text":"現行法規對於保險資金的運用有一定的限制比例不得超過資產總額的30%在這一定程度上限制了保險資金投入公共建設的"},{"start":77.731,"end":81.013,"text":"中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢"},{"start":103.77,"end":123.2,"text":"報告委員您提到這個三個原因確實比如說像第二個原因跟第三個原因確實那第一個原因容我說明一下其實保險業它根據保險法146條之二裡面可以投資在不動產的額度剛剛委員也提到30%其實我們現在實際的投入應該是遠低於這個"},{"start":123.88,"end":150.625,"text":"所以我們這個不動產的投資比例應該不會限制到這個公建那只是我們對不動產的投資有很多比如說避免炒房我們是不可以投入住宅也對於投入商辦我們有一定的最低報酬率的限制這個東西可能是我們比較對於市場管控的一些比較多的措施但是這個比例的部分根據我們的現在的評估是不需要做這個修法因為我們不管是不動產投資現在比例"},{"start":151.365,"end":165.964,"text":"其實加上比如說BOT這些案例其實都還有很多的額度所以這個部分保險法146條的規定這個部分對於不動產投資的比例有所限制所以我才想要問說"},{"start":167.35,"end":191.743,"text":"主委,這院板,您要不要提出院板,針對保險資金投入公共建設的部分來做一個修正。提高它的比例。如果這樣的話,如果我們市場上已經有普遍存在非常適合的投資工具的話,我們可以考量朝這個方向來思考。但現在問題是,假設我們規定有一定的比例要投資公建,問題是我們現在的沒有那麼多的"},{"start":192.563,"end":194.444,"text":"邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會．加速建設之推動．加速建設之推動"},{"start":220.058,"end":238.405,"text":"對,就像你報告裡面也寫到就是說要推動公共建設作為這個國家的重要政策那配合國家重要政策適時的檢討相關法規促進保險業者投入公共建設所以你剛剛提到說投資工件、標的物這些部分都必須要去創造是的"},{"start":240.806,"end":258.319,"text":"所以第一個它的風險性以及它的我們剛剛有提到就是說政策變動或者是市場風險然後呢投資金額量體很大回收的週期很長所以這個才需要我們國家政策的一個介入然後來幫助它"},{"start":259.279,"end":275.989,"text":"這部分所以我想請主委來做一個更具體的一個設想好不好那再來就是說我再提出啦我也要解決等於說促進保險業者擴大參與公共建設那我提出幾點的建議"},{"start":277.63,"end":303.858,"text":"調整法規的限制就像你的報告裡面有提到適當的放寬這些公共建設的一個投資的限制提高保險資金在基礎設施和公共服務領域的一個投資比例制定一個針對性的政策鼓勵保險公司參與公共建設的項目第二點就是建立投資保障機制"},{"start":307.279,"end":334.609,"text":"經管會應該要建立健全的一個公共建設項目投資保障機制這部分來保障我們的保險公司第三項就是提供稅收優惠相關的這些基地措施那對於積極參與公共建設的保險公司提供稅收優惠那基地保險公司來參加對於這種公共建設一個投資那主委"},{"start":335.669,"end":362.217,"text":"促進保險業資金參與公共建設．能為我國公共建設提供穩定的資金來源．而且還能夠提升保險公司的一個資產配置效率．實現雙贏．然後促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設的部分那我們召委羅明才召委提案保險業目前依法海外投資最高可達可運用資金的45%"},{"start":363.854,"end":389.106,"text":"那這是經過了我看這個報告裡面他經過了從這個81年然後89年96年三次的修法把原來的一個比例從20%一直提高到45%對,從5%一直提高到45%那昭緯他是希望說能夠把這個資金能夠"},{"start":394.588,"end":394.868,"text":"主席"},{"start":421.972,"end":437.106,"text":"資金不只是保險業的資金能夠投資台灣創造產業創造就業機會這當然是大家所樂見剛剛有提到說保險業過去為什麼這麼高的比例投資確實我剛剛也簡單說明2002年以前的高利率保單"},{"start":438.007,"end":438.167,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":466.781,"end":488.522,"text":"不管是鼓勵或是提醒保險公司多多來投資這樣創造雙贏這才是我們真正未來可以來努力的一個方向所以說我們幫助國內把這些把國人的錢留在台灣那海外投資最高可達運用資金的45%所以就是說主委按照你剛剛的說法這45%會下修"},{"start":490.46,"end":515.452,"text":"這45%現在因為其實保險業資金的45%是動他每年會隨著他業績增加而增加所以比如說我們假設保險公司每年大概多一兩兆的新錢進來實際上這部分我們就可以多多鼓勵他投資台灣對但是他已經配置在海外的這些的這些那個投資如果貿然的去做這些處理的話其實會產生很大的那個負向的作用所以我們要必須要謹慎"},{"start":516.232,"end":537.293,"text":"好,所以調降保險業資金,國外的投資總額,調降,然後呢,讓資金回到台灣投資,建設台灣,帶動科技產業的升級,創造更多的就業機會,然後提升員工的薪資等等,這是我們最重要的目標啦。就是說提升國內是我們的目標,但是我們的方法要用一個比較適合的方法。"},{"start":540.356,"end":549.929,"text":"好,謝謝主委。謝謝委員。那我想請我們央行我們的總裁。央行嚴副總裁。"},{"start":561.107,"end":574.298,"text":"央行日前為了打炒房所以調升存款準備率收收銀行1200億的資金那你認為調高這個存款準備率是實質而強力有力的緊縮措施是這樣子嗎"},{"start":576.124,"end":604.195,"text":"因為我們只有調生鷹馬他其實回收資金1200億那每一個銀行分攤下來的話有的大銀行大概二三十億這樣子那基本上我們是希望透過這樣子來讓銀行的資金稍微緊縮一下特別在對房地產的放款方面對那這樣子對銀行的一個放貸資金造成一個抑制的效果那所以會不會間接也造成了對物價的波動"},{"start":605.462,"end":621.331,"text":"我個人認為沒有那麼直接看不出來有直接的影響因為我們還會透過公開市場操作隨時去調整銀行的那個有事項疑慮 我想請教有事項疑慮第一個就是說貸款利率上升"},{"start":622.111,"end":622.131,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":640.675,"end":640.855,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":672.233,"end":673.198,"text":"王宏威委員"}]}},{"id":"154471","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154471","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bda87401cd44413b21266d74c0b9571b08d15f5ccb8d26769b04d060652815dfb75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:31:03 - 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重點是我覺得現在的問題現在對於利率利息跟手續費有規定的叫做銀行"},{"start":135.885,"end":145.008,"text":"蓬佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期"},{"start":162.338,"end":185.045,"text":"今天的問題在於沒有人要管我今天就算把民法幫你們修了多年但是一樣融資公定公司沒有人要管才是今天的真點因為公司法本身沒有是因為你只管公司法公司法有70萬家公司怎麼會輪得到經濟部來管融資租賃業重點在於另外一個問題融資租賃業他是有洗房業務剛剛趙委員問得很清楚洗房業務是誰管"},{"start":191.134,"end":191.274,"text":"議員黃珊珊"},{"start":213.154,"end":232.016,"text":"要不要 有沒有申報過 經濟部你有沒有接到任何資訊或者調查局有向法務部報告我查了一下調查局這邊 112年申報大額通貨交易的件數銀行幾百萬件 保險業幾千件甚至連銀樓都很多件 融資租賃公司零件"},{"start":233.7,"end":233.8,"text":"主管機關"},{"start":253.103,"end":254.504,"text":"關於《民法第二百零五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":277.116,"end":304.418,"text":"民間團體卡在自救受害人自救會還有臺北律師公會都已經提出了融資租賃專法的版本我也會提我想在立法院很多的委員都在爭取這件事情重點是政府不能只管半套啊剛剛講過了沒人管不想管有辦法也不定有規定也不遵守就是我們的政府在縱容這些影子銀行不斷的做大"},{"start":305.783,"end":323.814,"text":"現在的金管會只做一件事情就是啊那三家上司我找他來喝咖啡啊然後喝完咖啡呢一樣申報過嗎洗錢業務報告過嗎沒有不理你所以今天的問題在於法務部如果真的要解決這個問題洗房也是你"},{"start":325.608,"end":349.288,"text":"現在民法也是你但是融資公司你管不到融資公司亂象普遍存在在臺灣社會從20多年前的卡債那時候還是銀行作亂現在銀行不敢了銀行管得很嚴今晚會管得很好但是融資註定公司用另外一種形式在做一樣的事情而這個事情滿有人管"},{"start":350.839,"end":366.129,"text":"三位我想今天大家可能都是業務單位啦我重點還是中央政府的政策方向所以另外最後一個融資公司打廣告誰管廣告不實誰管有沒有人管經濟部管不管得了"},{"start":367.551,"end":368.172,"text":"〔民法第二百零五條條文秀〕"},{"start":386.033,"end":388.655,"text":"關於委員剛所提到在洗房法底下這個通報等等的我們會跟金管會"},{"start":408.593,"end":411.558,"text":"其他關於專法的部分我們尊重大院跟行政院所提的方向"}]}},{"id":"154470","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154470","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdbbe9c400be74149a27d0a78c1009ae5ed15f5ccb8d26769b12d65d6394dc0c085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"10:31:30 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有請部長"},{"start":19.54,"end":33.365,"text":"林委員你好部長你好我想少子化的問題嚴重很嚴重那日前行政院長卓榮泰提議護證單位將未婚未生的民眾資料勾結給相關單位介紹"},{"start":38.047,"end":52.418,"text":"獎勵政策本席對卓院長提議保持保留意見這牽涉到個人隱私問題但少子化的確是國安問題文化部辦理國家兒童未來館"},{"start":54.219,"end":76.632,"text":"新建的計畫本席建議國家應該減輕撫養兒童家庭的負擔多給予門票優惠你有什麼看法?非常謝謝林委員的建議因為這個國家兒童未來館我們還在設計中未來裡面的內容還有如何經營票價多少"},{"start":78.231,"end":106.404,"text":"這點沒有問題這點我沒有問題嘛對全國12歲兒童入管應享優待那場館周遭的居民更應該享有門票的優惠撫養多胞胎的民眾入管享有優待以鼓勵國人多多使用來加惠撫養兒童之家庭那本期要提醒李部長"},{"start":107.389,"end":131.31,"text":"未來在規劃國家兒童未來館門票上等於是收費上必須針對這個少子化的問題設計門票相關的優惠以減輕父母育兒的壓力你有什麼看法我覺得這個觀念蠻正確的我們未來會考慮如何經營這個場館但是最希望就是所有的兒童都能夠享受這個"},{"start":132.031,"end":158.819,"text":"不要以盈利為目的啦不會不會那個李部長因為美國藝術四大獎外界認為分別是劇場東尼獎電影奧斯卡金像獎電視有艾美獎音樂有葛萊美獎那國內對於電影金馬這個電視金鐘與音樂金曲皆有重要的獎項唯獨舞台劇的劇類缺少"},{"start":161.88,"end":185.308,"text":"那這些指標的獎項來鼓勵他如何去創作因此這個臺北市文化局踏出第一步這個設立臺北戲劇獎預計明年6月頒獎本席我也希望文化部與藝文界攜手合作共同來催生等同三金等級的舞台戲劇"},{"start":186.889,"end":191.89,"text":"就像那個電影我們中央有金馬獎臺北市有臺北電影節它各有特色金馬獎是華人以華人電影臺北電影節只能臺灣電影所以剛剛非常謝謝委員的建議我們正在研擬中"},{"start":214.797,"end":223.626,"text":"我希望你要去重視這個問題本席另外也跟李部長探討公共藝術的推廣根據預算書資料藝術銀行112年6月底完成了432件作品的出租"},{"start":232.615,"end":237.862,"text":"租金收入119萬元111年作品出租1,005件租金收入299萬元藝術銀行111年獲得3,079萬預算補助"},{"start":250.399,"end":251.861,"text":"有關詳細數字請次長回答"},{"start":270.37,"end":298.949,"text":"跟委員報告藝術銀行一直在提升他出租可以獲利的這個可以得到的收益那現在最重要就是我們跟內政部的社社就是社宅來做合作所以在社宅的這間合作上我就是要問社宅的問題其實你要自給自足啦去年文化部與內政部開始推動社宅異想計畫以新台幣10億元的公共藝術基金規模來達成10年的合作由藝術銀行操刀"},{"start":300.81,"end":314.015,"text":"為社會住宅規劃藝術展示的服務那我請問李部長目前藝術銀行收藏的作品有多少件?3092件那已經開始在社會住宅展覽數量"},{"start":328.432,"end":349.034,"text":"社會住宅地點若干手邊沒有資料 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說明"},{"start":507.893,"end":531.444,"text":"是主委你是就是等於是風管的一個那個專家那如果我們用就是針對的這幾個大學他都是在一個斷層帶上面那這些學校我們簡單的去把它那個找出來搜尋出來就是說其實他很多校舍然後他並沒有那個投保商業的地震險是是是"},{"start":531.764,"end":554.066,"text":"那甚至就是說民間的一般的一個住宅其實大概只有四成投了這個地震險那大家都買了火險那只有成大他其實還有買了一個那個基本的地震險那你怎麼去看待就是說所有的學校還有公務系統裡頭我們的保險的一個能量是這麼弱"},{"start":555.487,"end":575.895,"text":"是,謝謝委員,這個委員蒐集資料真的很完整就是說這個確實我們在過去投保火災險的時候因為大家都沒有注意到其實地震因為我們過去是因為假設你有房貸的話你有房貸的話通常我們銀行實務就會要求你要買一個這個火險這時候就會一定搭有這個所謂地震險的基本的地震保險對這個"},{"start":577.595,"end":577.615,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":597.216,"end":620.632,"text":"主委 是不是只有學校切法風險管理的一個概念連重大的公共建設其實也是一樣切法這個風險管理的一個概念你知道就是我們從新北那個黃川縣這個4.42億裡頭其實他沒有買保險他只有廠商的保固險那保固險還賠不到那你看"},{"start":621.613,"end":629.328,"text":"一樣要就是我們的政府跟我們民眾的那個納稅然後去補貼這些就是他所那個"},{"start":630.666,"end":631.026,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":660.287,"end":684.522,"text":"那你是風險管理專家所以這個我想由我們自身做起謝謝委員的提醒我們一定是趕快來去了解所以我舉的一個案例就是台積電的風險管理的一個做法它其實都是一個提高國家跟災害的一個應變能力它本來損失了兩三百億可是它扣除了保險理賠之後它相關的地震的損失才"},{"start":685.382,"end":709.743,"text":"只有30億這個都是我們一個非常好的一個參考的一個標的在這裡本席要求金管會就是評估就是如何跟各個機關合作提供業者更多的一個投資臺灣基礎建設的一個誘因那也希望你跟各機關的合作盤點現有的一個設備的風險管理狀況那協助建立中央風險控管的一個系統謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":717.783,"end":718.085,"text":"下一位質詢請嚴寬恆、嚴委員"}]}},{"id":"154467","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154467","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd3ce532160c02760227d0a78c1009ae5ed15f5ccb8d26769b334a1e86bb4a3c825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:18:30 - 10:31:22","影片長度":"00:12:52","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:18:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:31:22+08:00","duration":772,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":476,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時18分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["李部長遠：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，雖然我的題目沒有含剛剛葛委員的題目，可是我想要echo一下。之前我們跟國科會談TAIDE模型的時候就有拜託國科會，一定要協同文化部協助開發臺灣TAIDE的模型，因為剛剛葛委員所舉的例子，有很大一部分是因為我們人類在下關鍵字的時候，自己就被單一的思維侷限。例如我要叫它產生一個副總統的圖像，我其實可以多給它一點關鍵字，例如女性、40到50歲、亞洲人、膚色等，這是透過我對這件事情的認識，是我去教會那個生成模型。所以這個部分我也要提一下，不是AI本身出了問題，是使用它的人有沒有意識到自己正在用什麼樣的邏輯跟它對話，臺灣TAIDE的模型真的需要文化部給予協助。之前我們跟國科會談過，但我不確定國科會找你們了沒有，後續我們辦公室也會持續透過跨部會的協調，希望在這件事情上讓臺灣TAIDE的模型可以做得更好、做得更多，這個部分請問部長可以簡單回應一下嗎？"],["李部長遠：據我所知，之前文化部有不斷提供給生成式AI，內容有提供……"],["陳委員培瑜：他們需要資料，他們需要繁中的資料。"],["李部長遠：有。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想他們自己在這件事的認知上可能還需要文化部更多的協助，我們辦公室也會積極追蹤，謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：回到我自己的題目。部長，上上禮拜嘉義台積電廠址挖出疑似史前遺蹟，我們當然知道後續他們就先暫時停工了，他們在另外一邊先動工，我想知道目前文化部在這個議題上，協助掌握的進度跟後續規劃可能會往哪個方向發展？"],["李部長遠：這點請文資局局長回答。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。"],["陳局長濟民：委員，目前各地這種工程開發的案子遇到疑似考古遺址，案件也不少，當然在程序上還是要按照文資法的規範，裡面有一些要先停工，然後做一些調查研究……"],["陳委員培瑜：這個我都知道，我想問就這個case來說，你們有什麼規劃嗎？或者目前你們跟當地，因為他們是委託臺大團隊來協助，臺大團隊這邊有回報任何訊息給你們嗎？過往曾經有一個比較近的案例是後來開成了南科館，因為所蒐集的物件非常多，我不知道目前這邊蒐集的物件狀況跟當地學術團隊合作的狀況，所以只是要確保文資局有掌握相關的進度跟後續的規劃。"],["陳局長濟民：是，相關的進度跟狀況，我們都隨時掌握，目前後續怎麼做是由主管機關，也就是嘉義縣政府，他們已經召開審議會……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，但是他們絕對需要你們的協助喔！"],["陳局長濟民：是，不管是在經費或如果可以的部分，我們都會去協助，還有在諮詢技術上面、專家學者的協調等，我們都可以來進行，我們也都持續關注。"],["陳委員培瑜：請你們要積極協助他們，如果他們有更雄大的企圖心，想要做成博物館或者是相關的科學教育館、史學教育館，我相信文化部應該是有態度可以協助，也有相關經費跟資源，對嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：會。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝局長、謝謝部長。我們來看下一個，我們看到新聞說落實轉型正義，中正紀念堂儀隊要全面撤出，從所謂的在裡面操演改到自由廣場上操演，我自己過往在做轉型正義的時候，我們每一個人當然都有對於轉型正義的想像、認知跟希望達到的目標，我不知道部長您在這個題目上，因為說好是國防部跟文化部進行協調，部長您認為把儀隊操演移到戶外，它之於轉型正義的意義到底是什麼？"],["李部長遠：我想主要是大家對於整個中正紀念堂轉型正義的方式，其實我們文化部已經進行很久了，包括裡面的展示內容、包括臺灣的自由民主過程等等，那是內容的部分，可是在外觀上，大家一直對三軍儀隊在主堂裡面對銅像致敬這件事有不同的意見，認為我們不應該向一個帶有威權的銅像致敬，它的確是一個問題，但是我們又考慮到觀光客很喜歡看這樣的過程，那是不是不應該在銅像前面，而是把它換個地方讓更多人可以看到，而且三軍儀隊本身也不會走得更遠、更麻煩，針對這個怎麼走、怎麼來，我們文化部跟國防部已經試了好多路線，最終我們要考慮的第一個，這些三軍儀隊本身的表演很自然；第二，還是能夠更吸引觀光客；第三，也是考慮民眾的觀感上能夠接受。","基本上，我剛才前面有講到，歷史上留下來的一些威權建築，每一個社會的不同族群對它有兩極的看法，作為一個政府，尤其是文化部在處理這種事情的時候，我們必須非常小心的處理，否則的話，它會變成是一個……簡而言之，我不希望處理之後，變成一個更嚴重撕裂族群的事情，我希望處理得很好以後，它會成為一個歷史的過程，好像翻一本書，我們又翻到新的一頁去了，我們不要再糾結這些兩極的看法。所以我上次為什麼在一上任就講，它的生活方式、它的改造，對於中正紀念堂未來的想像有各種想像，它不一定是現在這個狀況，它有各種可能的改變，這些都列入我們未來的思考。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長，我剛剛保留這麼多時間、用掉我自己的時間讓部長談這件事情，就是我覺得要論述這件事情的整體一致性，或者是整體的全面關照這件事情，部長您剛才舉了幾個族群，一個是觀光客、一個是臺灣一般民眾的觀感，一旦談到觀光，文化部是不是要跟觀光局討論觀光客到底喜歡看什麼？喜歡看儀隊表演，我可以理解，可是儀隊的表演在全世界有各種樣態，如果文化部是為了照顧觀光的需求，甚至也要去想像儀隊內容是不是要改變；如果是為了照顧族群，大家可以一致的對話，站在一個可對話、可討論的平臺上來看待這件事，那又是回到另一個面向要做的事情。","所以對於把儀隊操演移到戶外這件事情，我更關注的是文化部自己整體的論述一定要站得住腳，因為如同部長您說的，過去大家習慣在兩邊的光譜上，極左跟極右大家各自對話、各自發述，但是可能沒有對話的空間，我很感謝部長想要促成對話，而一旦要促成對話，相關的論述要請文化部發展得更完整，才有機會在促成觀光也好，造成大家更多的對話、造成大家更多的討論，大家更團結一致為臺灣，我都覺得這是好事，可是我覺得相關的論述這樣聽起來，文化部還要更加油，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長。下一個，前一陣子文化部辦了媒體茶會，裡面有記者談到圖書折扣秩序制，因為我不在那個茶會現場，我只有看到相關的報導，我相信當場的媒體絕對不會只有問這個問題，但是這個問題被好幾個媒體特別拿出來寫。當天次長跟部長都有各自回答，我很感謝部長說這個可能有公平交易的問題，但是我想要說的是，其實圖書統一定價制或是折扣秩序制這件事情，文化部在十年前曾經有過研究，去年也發包做相關的研究，但是在這個研究背後，我想要提出我自己的觀點、有一些問題。我們來說，每次只要提到問卷，就有消費者反映不想要被定價綁住這件事情，但我很好奇，我們的問卷真的有告訴消費者，其實臺灣的圖書出版業者早在十年前，為了應付消費者喜歡買打折書，早早在十幾年前就已經把圖書定價提高了嗎？為了配合消費者，就連在我自己辦的公聽會上，有一個專門賣折扣套書的出版社都在公聽會說臺灣人很愛CP值，我把書定到6,000，然後打折變2,000，消費者買單買得不得了！這個事情大家早就知道，但是在文化部的問卷裡面，我很好奇當我們去問一個消費者喜不喜歡書有打折、你看到書沒有打折有什麼心情，我們根本沒有告訴一般消費者這個背景知識。","再往下看。韓國開始實施圖書定價制之後，他們整體的業績只上升2億，其實並沒有很多，可是他們卻造成另外一個意外的現象，也就是他們圖書出版的書種變多，圖書的市場變得更多元，有大眾的、主流的主題，小眾的、單獨的市場也需要被照顧到，而且圖書出版也被照顧到了。前兩天在中國的直播平臺上，有一個諾貝爾獎得獎者的書，在直播間好像不到4個小時賣出11萬本，可是出版社已經告訴大家不是要透過直播間賣出11萬本書來賺錢，他們其實是賠錢的，也就是打折去賣書這件事情，出版社很痛、很賠錢，可是他想要造成廣告效應。所以我想告訴部長，也想要拜託部長，您來自出版界、來自相關的藝術表演界基層，你一定知道打折這件事情對所有文化產業內容的創作者是多麼大的打擊，絕對不是只有在出版產業，更何況文化部一直想要推廣臺灣的影視音、推廣臺灣的IP，但如果部長有研究，以臺灣最喜歡拿的韓國來舉例，韓國有非常多的IP、所有的content都來自出版產業，而一旦我們用這樣的方法繼續摧殘圖書產業，我真的不知道臺灣自己的作家還有多少人願意投入，讓自己在臺灣成為一個漫畫家、成為一個繪本作家、成為一個小說作家，甚至成為一個報導文學作家。我覺得臺灣未來在這件事情上，我完全看不到可能性，可不可以請部長簡單回應一下？"],["李部長遠：謝謝陳委員。在我過去的經驗中，一個國家的文學作品很重要，出版也非常重要，因為它是所有文化的開始，如果有一個很好的文學作品變成一個很好的IP，變成電影、電視、遊戲、音樂等等，在我那個年代，我是非常鼓勵這樣子的，所以一定要保有臺灣在文學上，包括出版的利基，才能發展出更好的文化產業，這點我非常相信。未來有關這些折扣也好，圖書館的借書也好，這些我們都反反覆覆在研擬了，我希望多聽一點出版界本身的建議，還有剛剛講到消費者喜歡折扣，這些消費行為我們都一併納入討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：我相信有非常多的社會溝通工作落在產業本身，產業本身也很積極在做這件事情，可是從非常多圖書統一定價制的國家市場看來，一旦推行圖書統一定價制的好處是什麼？就是圖書出版的樣態會非常多元，甚至連我們認為有所謂言論管制的中國，他們都有發現這個現象，更何況是韓國、法國、日本等相關國家只要推行圖書定價制，其實書的樣態會非常非常的多元，言論跟文化不再會是單一化，大家不會只看到所謂的主流暢銷書這些事情在市場上，所以我覺得站在臺灣過往曾經有文化多元這個黃金的市場上，我們必須要回來看這件事情，如果現在它不再發生，如同部長你說的，現在這個世代不再發生，到底原因是什麼？到底跟折扣的關係又是什麼？到底跟臺灣人的閱讀、閱聽習慣的改變關係又是什麼？其實非常需要你們的政策配套。","我舉最後一個例子，韓國為了振興所謂出版產業，他們做了政策配套、做了市場調查、做了閱讀推廣、做了數位升級、做了人才培育、做了國際合作、做了文化輸出，而且他們所有的政策都有相關的法源依據作為配套，讓所有政策都有法源依據這件事情非常的重要，但在臺灣，過往我們習慣用一個行政命令或是補助政策就去解決，但一旦沒有法源依據，說實話，部長您走了，下一個部長不見得會支持這件事情，如果我們在意、重視的是文化產業，其實我們需要更多的相關法規，這個部分也要請文化部積極的研議，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：會。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我們辦公室會再積極跟文化部討論，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝你。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，部長請回。","我們接下來請林德福委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝"},{"start":125.519,"end":151.983,"text":"委員現在目前各地的這種工程開發的案子遇到了疑似考古遺址也是案件也不少是這裡面當然在程序上還是要按照文資法的規範裡面有些要先停工這個我都知道我想問就這個case來說你們有什麼規劃嗎或者是目前你們跟他們當地因為目前他們是委託臺大團隊來協助嘛那臺大團隊這邊會不會回報任何訊息給你們因為過往曾經有一個比較近的案例是後來就開成了南科館"},{"start":152.483,"end":152.623,"text":"陳培瑜議員"},{"start":182.649,"end":184.891,"text":"我們看到新聞說若實轉型正義中正紀念堂一對要撤出全面撤出要從所謂的在裡面操演改到自由廣場上來操演"},{"start":207.012,"end":207.332,"text":"主要是大家一直"},{"start":230.57,"end":246.781,"text":"中正紀念堂的轉型正義的方式其實我們文化部已經進行很久了包括裡面的展示內容包括整個台灣的自由民主的過程等等那是內容的部分可是在外觀上大家一直對三軍儀隊在組團裡面對那個"},{"start":251.784,"end":251.964,"text":"陳培瑜議員"},{"start":277,"end":303.699,"text":"其實我們這個怎麼走怎麼來我們已經來去我們文化部跟國安部已經試了好多路線最終最終我們要考慮的一個這些三軍儀隊本身的表演很自然第二還是能夠更吸引觀光客第三也是考慮民眾上的觀感他能接受基本上我剛剛前面有講到說歷史上留下來的一些威權的建築"},{"start":305.322,"end":326.582,"text":"每一個社會都有不同的族群對它兩極的看法作為一個政府尤其是文化部在處理這種事情的時候我們必須非常小心的處理否則的話它會變成是一個簡單言之我不希望處理之後變成是一個撕裂族群的一個更嚴重的事情我希望處理得很好以後"},{"start":327.534,"end":327.574,"text":"陳培瑜議員"},{"start":348.228,"end":352.131,"text":"謝謝部長我剛剛保留了這麼多時間用掉我自己的時間讓部長談這件事情就是我覺得論述這件事情整體的一致性或者是整體的全面關照這件事情部長您剛舉了幾個族群一個是觀光客一個是台灣一般民眾的觀感"},{"start":373.749,"end":388.794,"text":"那一旦談到觀光是不是文化部要跟觀光局去討論觀光客到底喜歡看什麼那喜歡看儀隊表演我可以理解可是儀隊的表演在全世界各種樣態如果文化部是為了照顧觀光的需求甚且要去想像儀隊內容是不是要改變"},{"start":389.534,"end":406.71,"text":"如果是為了照顧族群大家可以一致的對話站在一個可對話的平台上可討論的平台上來看待這個那又回到另外一個面向要去做的事情所以對於把這個一對操演移到戶外這件事情我更關注的就是文化部自己整體的論述一定要站得住腳"},{"start":407.29,"end":407.31,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":438.488,"end":464.64,"text":"前一陣子 文化部辦了媒體查會 裡面就有記者談到了圖書折扣秩序制因為我不在那個查會現場 我只有看到相關的報導我相信當場的媒體 絕對不會只有問這個問題但是這個問題 被好幾個媒體 特別拿出來寫那當天呢 次長跟部長都有各自回答我很感謝部長你說 這可能有公平交易的問題但是我想要說的是 其實圖書統一定價制或是折扣秩序制這件事情"},{"start":465.68,"end":481.935,"text":"在文化部過往10年前曾經有過研究去年也發報做相關研究但是這個研究背後我想要提出我自己的觀點有一些問題我們來說每次只要提到問卷然後有消費者反應不想要被定價綁住這件事情但我很好奇"},{"start":482.515,"end":505.41,"text":"我們的論卷真的有告訴消費者其實臺灣的圖書出版業者早在10年前為了應付消費者喜歡買打折書這件事情早早在10幾年前就已經把圖書定價提高了嗎為了配合消費者就連在我自己辦的公聽會上有一個專門賣折扣套書的出版社都在公聽會上說啊這臺灣人很愛CP值啊我把書訂到6000然後打折變2000消費者買單買得不得了"},{"start":511.414,"end":512.816,"text":"韓國開始實施圖書定價制之後其實他們整體的業績只上升了兩億"},{"start":531.317,"end":553.005,"text":"其實並沒有很多可是他們卻造成了另外一個意外的現象就是他們圖書出版的書種變多圖書的市場變得更多元有大眾的主流的主題有小眾的單獨的市場也需要被照顧到而且在圖書出版也被照顧到了前兩天在中國的直播平台上有一個諾貝爾獎的獎他的書在直播間好像不到4個小時賣出了11萬本"},{"start":559.787,"end":565.895,"text":"可是出版社已經告訴大家我們不是要透過直播間賣出11萬本的書來賺錢我們其實是賠錢的也就是說打折去賣書這件事情出版社很痛很賠錢可是他想要造成的是廣告效應"},{"start":575.888,"end":597.685,"text":"所以我想要告訴部長也想要拜託部長您來自出版界來自相關的基層藝術表演界你一定知道打折這件事情對所有的文化產業內容的創作者是多麼大的打擊絕對不是只有在出版產業更何況文化部一直想要推廣台灣的影視音想要推廣台灣的IP但部長如果你研究台灣最喜歡拿的韓國來舉例"},{"start":599.286,"end":622.057,"text":"韓國有非常多的IP所有的content都是來自出版產業而一旦我們用這樣的方法繼續摧殘圖書產業我真的不知道台灣自己的作家還有多少人願意投入讓自己在台灣成為一個漫畫家成為一個繪本作家成為一個小說作家甚至成為一個報導文學作家我覺得在這個台灣未來這件事情上我完全看不到可能性我可不可以請部長簡單回應一下"},{"start":624.619,"end":645.599,"text":"謝謝陳委員在我過去的經驗中一個國家的文學作品很重要然後出版也非常重要因為它是所有文化的開始如果有一個很好的文學作品它變成一個很好的IP變成電影電視遊戲等等音樂等等在我那個年代我是非常鼓勵這樣子的所以"},{"start":646.44,"end":646.56,"text":"陳培瑜議員"},{"start":675.309,"end":682.618,"text":"我相信有非常多社會溝通的工作當然落在產業本身產業本身很積極在做這件事情可是從非常多圖書統一定價制的國家市場看來一旦有推行圖書統一定價制的好處會是什麼就是圖書出版的樣態會非常多元"},{"start":691.608,"end":691.728,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":721.668,"end":745.652,"text":"到底跟折扣的關係又是什麼?到底跟台灣人的閱讀閱聽習慣的改變關係又是什麼?其實非常需要你們的政策配套我舉最後一個例子韓國為了振興所謂出版產業他們做了政策配套做了市場調查做了閱讀推廣做了數位升級做了人才培育做了國際合作做了文化輸出而且所有他們的政策都有相關的法源依據作為配套"},{"start":746.152,"end":746.432,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"154466","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154466","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd1f922ad58e32e53d266d74c0b9571b08d15f5ccb8d26769bd553ae1fc4f0545b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:15:05 - 10:30:33","影片長度":"00:15:28","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:15:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:30:33+08:00","duration":928,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":34,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-34"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":271,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時15分）主席，剛剛在提案說明時，因為本席是今天主席的關係，所以容許我很簡短先做提案說明。","鑒於近年來常有融資公司業者巧立手續費、保管費、違約金等名目，藉以規避現行年利率16%之限制，而據行政院消費者保護處統計，過去每年約三、四百件該類融資相關消費爭議，因銀行是特許行業，金管會對其有行政指導權，並能對其進行金檢，故銀行多不至於危害消費者。但這些泛稱融資公司的業者並無人監督，實務上也常見他們誘使大學生、失業者或上班族進行超貸，製造更多社會問題。因此本席提案修正民法第二百零五條第一項，明定超過利率上限之契約無效；並增加第二項，明定伴隨債務產生之各項規費、違約應納入共同計算。","現在有請法務部黃次長，還有金管會銀行局侯主秘，也同時邀請經濟部陳副署長和消保處陳副處長，一起並同協助說明。"],["主席：請剛才鍾委員所提到的這些單位主管上台備詢。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，我先秀一下一些媒體報導，媒體報導說，租賃公司不看收入證明，高利貸放給小白，因此子債父償，畢竟多數家長不忍心看孩子欠錢，就會出來清償。又或者有人透過融資公司貸款38萬，但要先扣手續費9%，而代辦公司除了收手續費，還要加對保費，實際上只拿到30萬，甚至最後還了52萬，利率高達51%。請問次長，過去在您服務民眾的經驗中，有沒有常遇到這類爭議？"],["黃次長世杰：我想我們都會遇到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副處長、主秘，還有副署長，應該都瞭解吧？我現在馬上來介紹一下。民法第二百零五條修正條文我剛剛已經介紹過了，本席主要的修正目的是防止融資公司巧立名目收費。我來介紹一下幾個情況給大家瞭解。","大家聽過分期付款吧？所謂分期付款，就是消費者─我要買車，可能要100萬，車商會幫忙我向銀行辦理分期付款，把我所買的車設定抵押給銀行；銀行就會把車款付給車商，未來我就是定期付銀行的分期付款，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但分期付款一定會加上我要給銀行的利息嘛？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是正常的情況。那麼融資租賃呢？融資租賃就是承租人有信用問題，所以銀行不會貸款給他，於是他找了一個出租人，這個出租人就是融資租賃業者，去跟銀行辦理分期付款的貸款，買了一輛車在業者名下，設定抵押給銀行，然後再出租給承租人。但承租人每個月付的租金遠大於出租人的本息再加上業務費用，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是融資租賃，因為沒有辦法融資，所以透過融資租賃公司以租賃的型態，實質上取得融資購車的需求。等到租約期滿，若有殘值，搞不好承租人還可以向出租人買，大概是這樣，但我們看一下現在的情況。有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬？有沒有聽過？"],["黃次長世杰：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問主秘有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬？而且是年輕的上班族、學生？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：之前有，但現在有要求不可以這樣做了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副署長有沒有聽過？"],["陳副署長秘順：有聽過新聞報導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：消保處副處長知道嗎？"],["陳副處長星宏：是。這在相關的消費爭議中曾經……"],["鍾委員佳濱：常常看到？來，我試著解釋看看，這非常複雜。同樣的，受害者沒有信用、沒辦法跟銀行申請，沒有辦法取得30萬，但融資公司說可以借30萬，只是要有機車。很奇怪，借錢給你還要機車幹什麼？設定給我嗎？沒有，機車沒辦法設定抵押。但是他說，我給你30萬，購買你機車所有的使用權，車子還是你的，只是我跟你買這輛車的使用權，然後你每個月要付我租金，這樣瞭解了？我給你30萬，購買你所擁有機車的使用權，車子還是你的，我跟你買這輛車的使用權，然後你每個月要付我租金，這樣瞭解了嗎？我30萬是買你機車主的使用權。但是你有沒有拿到30萬？沒有！他給你七扣八扣，只給你21萬。那這個30萬誰出？這個30萬其實他跟受害者拿了他的各種所謂的租車的相關資料，幫受害者去申請銀行的消貸、信用貸款。那很奇怪啊！受害者自己跟銀行借不到錢，但是融資公司有辦法用他的證件、用他本人跟銀行辦信用貸款，結果呢？這個受害者其實就背負了銀行的負債，他每個月交給融資公司的租金，融資公司把它拿去給銀行還本息，一旦這個受害者付不起這個租金，車子是他的，他付不起使用車子的租金，銀行就開始來跟他追債。","請問次長，這個模式是不是你所知道的？"],["黃次長世杰：是，我有看過這樣的情形。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他就很巧妙地用話術，事實上用受害者的身分去辦信用貸款，他本身又拿受害者的車子虛假製作了一個使用權的購買，然後再把錢給他，但是要付租金，然後去幫他還他的貸款。","還有一種情況叫做汽車超貸，永遠還不完，而且越欠越多。正常來講，我們買車，現在很多出社會沒多久的年輕人一下子就牽一輛車100萬，還可以有現金。什麼意思？融資公司說：來，買車的100萬我幫你付，然後我給你貸款120萬（債務），扣掉手續費，你可以拿12萬現金。買一輛車100萬還可以拿現金，天底下有這麼好的事情嗎？沒有！他就是負債120萬，前6個月可能還了本利6期共30萬，債務打消了本金20萬。融資公司說：欸！你還6期了，我幫你整合債務，然後我再找二胎──B融資公司，B融資公司說：我可以借你150萬。一輛車經過這樣子的一胎到二胎，本來借120萬，現在變成借150萬，但是這150萬是要拿100萬把他原來的前一胎代償100萬，還有50萬，但是B融資公司並沒有給他50萬，他只拿到35萬，扣了15萬的手續費，後續他要付150萬債務的分期償還，就這樣越還負債越多。請問次長有沒有聽過這樣一個目前坊間的做法？"],["黃次長世杰：我個人還沒有遇到這樣的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知不知道這樣的運作模式？"],["黃次長世杰：這可以想像。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主秘，你知不知道人家融資公司這樣做？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：第一次聽到委員這樣說。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第一次聽到？","陳副處長和陳副署長呢？陳副署長，您知道民間所謂汽車超額貸，越貸越多，永遠還不完的運作嗎？"],["陳副署長秘順：今天才看到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：第一次嘛！"],["陳副署長秘順：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現場有沒有人之前借過的？好像沒有。","我也是花了很多時間，民眾因為超額貸，越還欠越多，我們才知道原來融資公司是這樣操作的。","好，問題來了。次長，我們今天就是因為這些融資租賃公司透過各種話術、透過包裝，或者是機車借30萬，他是把機車假設為一個使用權的使用借貸關係，然後拿你的資料去設定信用貸款。另外一個是越貸越多，這是用一胎、二胎的包裝。現在你們法務部的書面報告說，本席的提案只能適用於借貸契約，融資租賃不能涵蓋，那請問我剛剛講的這些例子有什麼方法可以解決？如果刪除我提案當中的「借貸」兩個字，有沒有辦法針對這些狀況來解決問題？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，誠如剛才委員為我們詳細解說的，實務上巧立名目，甚至以變更契約類型的形式來完成超貸或借貸的目的，事實上樣態非常多，委員所例示的這些其實都是造成我們在適用民法這一條上面的困難，所以其實我們在討論的時候，也有學者建議是不是就以各種利息之債的方式，就是凡是需要付利息的債務統統納入……"],["鍾委員佳濱：統統納入？"],["黃次長世杰：但是如果這樣子的話，也會擔心……"],["鍾委員佳濱：能解決剛剛那個狀況嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：這有兩個問題，第一個是這個打擊面會非常的廣，所以我們才說我們要函詢所有各該主管機關的意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們再看下一個……"],["黃次長世杰：第二個問題是說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請說。"],["黃次長世杰：即使是我們剛剛講的應付利息之債，但是剛剛我們看到委員所例示的這些情形，它的行為其實很多根本就不是用利息的方式來處理……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的！就是我要說的下一項……"],["黃次長世杰：所以這個部分事實上還是我們一開始有講的，如之前委員垂詢的，可能還要加強行政的監理跟管理，才有辦法去遏止這樣的脫法行為。因為其實剛剛我們所看到的這些例子，假設它進到法院，事實上透過司法的審理，有可能法院會把它做實質認定，或者是用第二百零六條來處理，但是我們現在看到比較困難的是，會去借這種借貸的，很多都是比較弱勢的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的！"],["黃次長世杰：比較弱勢的債務人，他們沒有辦法去負擔這個司法程序的成本跟這個過程，所以民法雖然已經有規定了，但是他們用不到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛次長講了很重要的一點，很多這種借貸的受害者是因為在正常的金融體系沒有辦法借到錢，在正規的銀行看起來，他的信用不好，才會有這些民間的借貸公司用融資租賃的方式來跟他詐騙，所以侯主秘，我們常常說銀行要普惠金融，是不是？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：30萬的小額貸款銀行借不到，結果一個初出社會的年輕人拿機車、用了10年的機車還可以貸30萬，想都不敢想啊，但是他就拿到他所需要的錢！","次長，高額違約金你剛剛已經點到了，為了節省時間，我就繼續往下講。融資公司還會做什麼事情？我之前也揭發過，叫做無卡分期。什麼叫無卡分期？信用卡分期是信用卡用你的信用擔保，由信用卡公司向商家付錢，然後再由信用卡發卡銀行來跟消費者（客戶）收錢；無卡分期就是沒有銀行做中介。沒有中介，誰在分期？就是消費者買賣的這個買賣契約變成了借貸關係嘛！我的分期付款是我欠你錢，我分期還給你，但是消費者聽到無卡分期，以為自己就是買個東西，分期就是買賣的分期付款，就這樣而已，但是一旦你分期付款的模式被破解，譬如說你後悔了、你不要了，他說你拆了包裝不能退，但是你的債務還是存在，不因為你退貨就能解除這個借貸關係，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們再往下看。所以這裡面我們剛剛講到還要循行政的方法，請問「金融服務業提供金融商品或服務前說明契約重要內容及揭露風險辦法」是不是銀行局所管的？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：這是我們的法律事務處，但是相關的金融機構都要符合這個規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這裡面有寫到重要內容要揭露，對不對？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：消保處副處長，金融消費者保護法是誰管的？"],["陳副處長星宏：金保法本身是金管會，但是消保法本身也是就信用跟信用的利率必須要明確揭露……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以銀行局跟你們都有關聯。好，它一樣說這要揭露。","接下來，根據目前我們正在審理中、即將要送二讀的洗錢防制法修正草案第五條，次長，這個洗防法是法務部主管的？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：修正草案第五條有講到「融資性租賃」，請問次長，我剛剛指的那兩種方式是不是都屬於融資性租賃規範的涵攝範圍內？"],["黃次長世杰：有可能；依照它的業務有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：修正草案第十條說要留下交易紀錄，要保存，而且其辦法要由中央目的事業主管機關會商法務部及相關機關定之，是不是這樣？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這個部分要說明的是，委員所提到的、目前有提到的洗防法相關草案的內容，事實上都是現行法已有規定的條次，所以我們這邊要求它所適用的是關於洗防義務的規定，但是我們今天討論的其實是一個監理行為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對！"],["黃次長世杰：所以是否在它的監理行為裡面要納入這些委員所講的相關監理和……"],["鍾委員佳濱：揭露啦！錄音錄影啦！"],["黃次長世杰：還是要由目的事業主管機關來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，目的事業主管機關會是誰？我們來開始考校一下對方。融資性租賃公司是屬於金管會管的嗎？主秘，是不是你們管的？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：目前不是，但是剛剛提到洗錢防制法的部分，有關洗錢防制的部分是我們會裡面……"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我們看一下洗錢防制的部分……"],["主席：鍾委員，你已經超時很久了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們趕快。所以我的訴求是，希望未來在行政院的洗錢防制法當中可以要求融資公司揭露風險跟錄音、錄影，以及第七條要有指定事項、要定期查核、要會商法務部。所以我的結論是，未來是不是請行政院法務部跟金管會在洗錢防制法修正草案通過後，依照前述法條推行融資租賃業的定型化契約？剛剛所講的那些內容，如果有一個定型化契約，以後在法院訴求的時候就有所依據了，是不是請次長回去會同考量一下？"],["黃次長世杰：我想依照剛剛那個條文，還是要由目的事業主管機關會商法務部來做，我們還是要請主管機關來會商，因為剛剛金管會有提到在洗防的範圍內，他們是指定的中央目的事業主管機關沒有錯，我們再跟他們會商，看如何來處理這個問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝次長、謝謝副署長、副處長跟主秘，謝謝主席。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：接下來請林楚茵委員。林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","請傅崐萁委員。傅崐萁、傅崐萁委員不在。","請林思銘委員。林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員。楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員。蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-34","speakers":["鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","黃珊珊","郭國文","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案；(二)委員鍾佳濱等\n25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.41909375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.38034375,"end":21.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.64784375,"end":31.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.739093750000002,"end":45.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.306593750000005,"end":66.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.77159375000001,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.31034375,"end":76.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.54221875,"end":78.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.15784375,"end":86.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.03846875,"end":91.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.84784375000001,"end":91.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.88159375000001,"end":92.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.15159375,"end":92.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.99534375,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.53534375000001,"end":94.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.81784375000001,"end":95.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.66159375000001,"end":96.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.06221875,"end":98.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.40784375000001,"end":101.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.50034375000001,"end":111.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.99659375,"end":115.65846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.89471875000001,"end":121.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.66596875,"end":123.67409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.80909375,"end":129.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.46221875,"end":130.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.84596875,"end":134.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.58784375000002,"end":147.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.14284375,"end":151.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.68659375000001,"end":153.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.89721875,"end":154.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.17971875,"end":156.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.32284375,"end":158.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.45346875,"end":159.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.93846875,"end":161.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.62596875,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.28409375,"end":165.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.86159375,"end":167.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.80221875,"end":171.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.97034375,"end":185.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.55471875,"end":188.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.16596875000002,"end":190.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.98846875,"end":191.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.81534375,"end":194.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.21159375000002,"end":196.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.52346875,"end":196.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.23221875000002,"end":198.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.58221875,"end":199.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.96596875,"end":200.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.29909375000003,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.67409375000003,"end":213.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.54596875000001,"end":225.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.49784375000002,"end":230.695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給你三十萬購買你所有的機車的使用權車子還是你的我跟你買這輛車的使用權然後呢你每個月要付我租金這樣了解了齁我三十萬是買你機車組的使用權"},{"start":300.816,"end":319.153,"text":"但是呢你有沒有拿到30萬沒有他給你7扣8扣他就呢只給你21萬那這一個30萬誰出呢這個30萬啊其實呢他跟受害者拿了他的各種所謂的這個租車的相關資料他幫受害者去申請銀行的銷貸信用貸款"},{"start":322.265,"end":341.112,"text":"那很奇怪啊受害者自己跟銀行借不到錢但是融資公司有辦法用他的證件去用他本人做信用貸款跟銀行做結果呢這個受害者他其實就背負了一個銀行的負債他每個月交給融資公司的租金融資公司把他拿去給銀行還本息"},{"start":341.872,"end":363.5,"text":"一旦這個受害者他付不起這個租金車子是他的他付不起使用車子的租金銀行就開始來跟他追債請問次長那個模式是不是你所知道的是我有看過這樣的情形他就很巧妙的用話術事實上用受害者的身份去辦信用貸款那本身他又拿受害者的車子"},{"start":364.941,"end":384.493,"text":"徐甲造了一個使用權的購買然後呢再把錢給他那要還租金然後去幫他還他的貸款好那還有一種情況叫做汽車超貸永遠還不完而且越欠越多正常來講我們買車現在很多啊並出社會沒有多久年輕人啊一開始就欠一輛車啊一百萬"},{"start":385.489,"end":385.609,"text":"二）委員鍾佳濱"},{"start":399.526,"end":423.101,"text":"買一輛車一百萬還可以拿現金天體要這麼好的事情嗎沒有他就負債負債一百二十萬他前六個月可能還了本利息還了六期還了三十萬債務打消的本金二十萬融資公司說你還了六期了我幫你整合債務然後呢我再找二胎找B融資公司融資公司說我可以借你一百五十萬"},{"start":424.67,"end":452.555,"text":"一輛車經過這樣的一胎到二胎本來借一百二現在變成借一百五但是一百五十萬現在拿一百萬把它原來的前一胎代償一百這五十萬V融資公司沒有給他五十萬他只拿到三十五扣了十五萬的手續費後續他要付一百五十萬債務的分期的一個償還而且這樣的越還負債越多請問次長有沒有聽過這樣的一個目前坊間的做法"},{"start":453.444,"end":453.464,"text":"鍾佳濱"},{"start":469.876,"end":492.947,"text":"一個是副組長,您知道民間所謂的汽車超額貸,越貸越多,越貸永遠還不完,知道這樣運作嗎?第一次嘛,現場有沒有人之前知道借過的?好像沒有。我也是花了很多時間,民眾因為超額貸越還欠越多,我們才知道原來融資公司是這樣操作的。好,問題來了,來。"},{"start":495.273,"end":512.744,"text":"市長我們今天就是因為這些融資租賃公司透過各種的話術的包裝或者是機車借30萬他是把機車假設是一個使用權的使用借貸關係然後把你去設定信用貸款"},{"start":513.735,"end":534.033,"text":"另外一個是越代越多是用一胎二胎的包裝現在你們法務部的書面報告說本席的提案他說只能適用借貸契約那融資租賃不能涵蓋那請問我剛剛講的這些例子有什麼方法可以解決如果刪除我提案當中的借貸兩個字有沒有辦法去針對這些狀況來解決問題"},{"start":536.739,"end":559.576,"text":"跟委員報告陳儒剛才委員為我們所詳細解說的這個實務上巧立名目甚至變更契約的類型的形式來完成他這個操帶或是借貸的這個目的事實上樣態非常多委員所歷史的這些其實都是造成我們在適用民法這一條上面的困難"},{"start":560.316,"end":560.336,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":585.67,"end":598.344,"text":"第二個問題是說如果這個即使我們剛剛講的應付利息是在但是剛剛我們看到委員所歷史的這些情形很多他的行為其實根本就不是用利息的方式來處理是的"},{"start":599.105,"end":615.751,"text":"所以這個部分事實上還是我們一開始有講有之前委員催詢的可能還是要加強行政的監理跟管理才有辦法去遏止這樣的脫法行為因為其實剛剛我們所看到這個例子假設他進到法院"},{"start":616.371,"end":639.221,"text":"事實上透過司法的審理有可能法院會把它做實質認定或者是用206條來處理但是我們現在看到比較困難的是會去接這種借貸的很多都是比較弱勢的債務人他們沒有辦法去負擔司法程序的這些成本跟這個過程所以我們這個民法雖然已經有規定了但是他們用不到"},{"start":641.221,"end":669.048,"text":"市長你講的很重要一點很多這種借貸的受害者他是因為在正常的金融體系他沒有辦法借到錢他的信用在正規的銀行看起來信用不好才會有這些民間的借貸公司用融資租賃的方式來跟他詐騙所以侯祖密我們常常說我們的銀行要什麼普惠金融是不是30萬的小額貸款銀行借不到結果一個"},{"start":669.833,"end":673.58,"text":"出租社會沒多久的半年輕人他拿機車欸機車啊用過10年的機車還可以帶30萬"},{"start":677.591,"end":677.731,"text":"議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":706.348,"end":706.368,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":731.01,"end":758.796,"text":"一旦你的分期付款的模式被破解比如說你後悔了你不要了他說你拆了包裝不能退但是你的債務還是存在不因為你退貨就能解除這個借貸關係是不是這樣子是好那我們再來往下看所以呢這裡面我們剛剛講到還要學到行政的方法根據我們金融服務業提供金融商品或服務前說明契約重要內容及介入風險辦法請問這是不是銀行局所管的"},{"start":760.899,"end":787.83,"text":"這是我們那個法律事務署,但我們相關的資料沒有進入到規定。好,那麼這裡面有寫到重要內容要介入,對不對?金融消費者保護法,那個消保處的副處長,這個是誰管的?金保法本身是金管會,但是消保法本身也是就信用跟信用的利率必須要明確。所以銀行局跟你們都有關聯,好。一樣他說這裡要介入,再往下看。"},{"start":788.755,"end":808.531,"text":"那麼根據行政院的目前我們正在審理中即將送二讀的洗錢防治法修正草案的第五條融資性租賃市長這個洗房法是我們法務部是那這裡的融資性租賃是不是我指的剛剛那兩種方式都是屬於融資性租賃規範的含色範圍內"},{"start":812.213,"end":817.003,"text":"那這裡面在第10條說要留下交易紀錄要保存而且法務部要匯商相關機關來訂資是不是這樣?"},{"start":819.122,"end":819.142,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":848.321,"end":875.402,"text":"還是要有目的事業主管好目的事業主管機關會是誰我們來開始考較一下對方融資性租賃公司是屬於金管會管的嗎主任秘密是不是你們管的目前是沒有那當然提到所謂洗錢房子法部分有關洗錢房子的部分是我們分明的好那我們趕快那麼所以呢我是訴求希望未來在行政院的洗錢房子法當中可以要求融資公司"},{"start":875.942,"end":876.082,"text":"議員鍾佳濱議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":896.704,"end":922.283,"text":"剛剛所講的那些內容如果有一個定型化契約以後在法院訴求的時候呢就有所依據啦是不是請次長回去我們會同去考量一下我想這個因為剛剛依照那個條文還是要由目的事業主管機關來會商法務部來做那我們還是要請因為剛剛那個機關會有提到在洗房的範圍內他們是這個指定的專門目的事業主管機關沒有錯那我們再跟他們會商看如何來處理這個問題"},{"start":923.926,"end":926.456,"text":"謝謝次長,謝謝副署長,副署長跟主秘,謝謝。謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"154463","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154463","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd1557e21eb232c59ecb3f5941fe168625d15f5ccb8d26769b3801785a97705b0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:11:12 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10:22:50","影片長度":"00:11:38","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:11:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:22:50+08:00","duration":698,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時11分）謝謝主席，我們請彭主委。"],["主席：彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：彭主委好。延續剛剛郭召委的話題，台中商銀的前董事長王貴鋒被具體求刑15年，併科罰金新臺幣5億元，但是檢察官在查的時候有查出一個案外案，案外案是金管會檢查局有一位李姓稽核員，他是內鬼，按照檢察官的起訴內容來看，他從112年4月到113年的1月，長達大概七、八個月的時間，洩漏金管會要調查的內容給台中商銀，請問一下，現在你們內部懲處的調查情況是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我可不可以請張局長來說明最近要做的事情。"],["李委員坤城：好，請張局長先講。因為現在檢察官有起訴李姓稽核員嘛，對不對？"],["張局長子浩：是。"],["李委員坤城：是給他緩起訴，那內部的行政懲處呢？"],["張局長子浩：我們在6月25號先把他調離檢查的職務，做比較內勤的工作，跟金融業者比較沒有直接的關係，這是第一點，實際上……"],["李委員坤城：調離而已？才調離現職而已……"],["張局長子浩：真正的行政懲處我們這禮拜會完成，因為在行政程序上，我們要給他一點時間準備，還是有一個程序要進行，讓他有答辯或是說明的機會，所以這禮拜會有結果。"],["李委員坤城：這禮拜會有結果？"],["張局長子浩：是。"],["李委員坤城：現在你們自己有沒有去查？因為這個是檢察官去查的，除了這個李姓稽核員之外，還有其他的嗎？局長。"],["張局長子浩：這位同仁在檢察官偵查時承認了他洩密的這些行為，我們就是以這為主，因為我們……"],["李委員坤城：他承認是他有做了，那我的問題是除了他之外，還有其他人嗎？"],["張局長子浩：我們會在要做行政懲處的時候，會請他答辯，會再問他。"],["李委員坤城：所以還是只針對他啦！我是說你們自己內部有沒有去調查，除了他之外，還有沒有其他人？"],["張局長子浩：我們有去問當事人，他在檢察官那邊說都沒有其他同事，事實上，我們瞭解起來基本上也是沒有，就是他個人行為。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們有正式的行政調查嗎？"],["張局長子浩：正式的行政調查是我們會在懲處的時候再請他說明，剩下部分是我個人跟他談的時候，我有問他，他說他在檢察官那邊怎麼講……"],["李委員坤城：那這算是正式的調查嗎？還是就是你局長就直接去問他，我是說這件事情非同小可，應該是要正式的一個行政調查。"],["張局長子浩：主要是說因為他在檢調那邊已經調查完畢，而且他也承認了，所以我們用這個當作基本事實來做相關的後續處理。"],["李委員坤城：對，主委，我的問題是除了他之外，還有沒有其他人，剛剛局長沒有回答我這個問題，你們有去查嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：事情發生以後，我有好幾次跟檢查局說一定要瞭解這整個事件的始末，我們不容再犯，所以檢查局就立刻調整其內部保密的一些規定，我也希望他定期的跟我回報，再來，相關的懲處應該趕快進行。"],["李委員坤城：那最重的懲處是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：關於公務員涉案其實有相關法規的規定，比如說，剛剛局長講的就是公務人員保障法跟考績法裡面都有針對這個程序做一定的……就剛才說的，那個時程還是要保障當事人的權益，再來就是他該怎麼樣撤職或是這樣的過程，可能都要按照我們法律的規定來辦理。"],["李委員坤城：我當然知道啊！但是我就是問，除非你們已經調查過了，那就是只有這位李姓稽核員他洩密，這件事情可能內部的控管就是到他，但是我不確定還有沒有，我這樣聽下來，好像你們也沒有再去查，就是只有針對檢察官查他的部分去查而已啦。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實剛剛局長講的比較保守啦，其實我們局長、內部跟政風人員都有對這件事情做仔細的瞭解，因為畢竟這已經是完成偵查……"],["李委員坤城：是啦，我的意思是說，除了局長自己去問之外，政風有沒有介入？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有啊，當然有。"],["李委員坤城：局長，你8月份要退休了？"],["張局長子浩：是、是。"],["李委員坤城：跟這件事情沒有關係吧！"],["張局長子浩：完全沒有。"],["李委員坤城：沒有關係？"],["張局長子浩：完全沒有。"],["李委員坤城：個人的生涯規劃？"],["張局長子浩：對、是。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我再請教一下主委，也請保險局局長。"],["主席：請施局長。"],["李委員坤城：在6月12號的時候，大家也關心到新光人壽還有三商人壽他們的資本適足率沒有達標，那時候你是提到6月底之前會聽他們具體改善的計畫，現在也7月初了，7月1號新光金控的董事長由原來人壽的董事長魏寶生來出任，我看他在報紙上也提出一些具體改善的計畫，請問一下局長，兩家公司的這個計畫你看過了嗎？你滿意嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：跟委員報告，新光人壽的改善計畫就如媒體所說的，因為董事長大概已經對外說明了，他們有提出來……"],["李委員坤城：不是媒體所說的啦！他有沒有把這個計畫……"],["施局長瓊華：有、有、有。"],["李委員坤城：不是媒體講的，他有沒有把這個計畫給你？"],["施局長瓊華：他有把財、業務改善計畫給我們，大概也如他所說的，就是他有提出現金增資的規劃。"],["李委員坤城：125億。"],["施局長瓊華：加上發債，也有給具體時程，具體時程大概在8月底就會完成，所以這個部分我們……"],["李委員坤城：他是現金增資125億，發行次債25億？"],["施局長瓊華：對、對、對。"],["李委員坤城：這個都在改善計畫裡面？"],["施局長瓊華：對，都在裡面，我們估計這個時程到8月底如果完成的話，他的RBC可以回到法定標準，所以我們就核定他這個改善計畫了。"],["李委員坤城：好，那三商人壽呢？"],["施局長瓊華：三商的部分，當然他們也有提出現金增資、發債還有發行……就是找策略性投資人，類似他要發特別股的意思，但是這些部分，他的時程比較沒有那麼具體，時間拉得比較長，要拉到明年，這個部分我們覺得太長了，所以我們會再要求他把時程儘量能夠往前再處理，他的RBC也有一點……"],["李委員坤城：新光人壽是8月，那他呢？他不可能到明年嘛。"],["施局長瓊華：所以現在我們就覺得他那個時間太長了，希望……"],["李委員坤城：那你有沒有給他一個deadline？"],["施局長瓊華：這個部分我們會看看怎麼處理，再給他一個時間。"],["李委員坤城：所以換句話說，他們的改善計畫，新光人壽算是有通過了。"],["施局長瓊華：對、對、對，核定了。"],["李委員坤城：三商人壽沒有通過？"],["施局長瓊華：目前還沒有通過。"],["李委員坤城：還沒有通過？"],["施局長瓊華：對、對、對。"],["李委員坤城：那你給他們的deadline，計畫還要再提上來，至少計畫何時再提上來有沒有一個deadline？"],["施局長瓊華：這個部分我們可能會有一些行政處理時間，之後會確定這個時間。"],["李委員坤城：總是要給個時間啊！"],["施局長瓊華：我們也是希望他今年年底以前應該要有一個進展。"],["李委員坤城：不能說新光人壽已經講說8月了，然後三商人壽可以拖到年底啊！"],["施局長瓊華：要看他真正採取的措施需要的合理期間。"],["李委員坤城：這個有時候還是要適當的給點壓力。"],["施局長瓊華：對、對、對。"],["李委員坤城：不然就會一直拖啊！對不對？"],["施局長瓊華：有，這個部分我們會處理。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以還是要給點壓力啦，時間上也是一個壓力啊！","請教一下主委，今天有提到要修正保險法第一百四十六條之四，將保險業國外投資總額比例從45%調降到25%，金管會的立場呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我們剛剛也說過，因為現在如果做這樣的更動，對於保險業資產配置，以及國內市場的衝擊，可能會非常的大，所以我們是持保留的態度，希望維持原來的條文。"],["李委員坤城：不過，老實講，保險業者投資國內這些公共建設的確比例是偏低啦，2024年第一季是1,335億元，占整個保險業的資金才0.42%。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["李委員坤城：跟你們法定的限額10%、3.27兆距離相當的大，所以現在問題是在於說，原本可以投資在國內的公共建設，你要想辦法讓他能夠投資啦！不是說現在連可以在國內投資的保險業的這些金額還沒有在國內投資，你就說要降低，從45%降低到25%，然後又引進了大概9兆的資金回到臺灣，所以這個也是大家的一個疑問啦，就是說國內有沒有這些投資的標的可以吸引我們的保險業者來做投資？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛不管是財政部部長或央行副總裁都有提到，就是我們現在的現況確實距離法定上限目標很遠，我們在政策上也是希望臺灣的保險業能夠有更多的資金投入臺灣，因為臺灣確實未來需要很多公共建設，只是說……"],["李委員坤城：這個你們還要再提出更具體的計畫。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["李委員坤城：因為我有看你們的報告，金管會、財政部的我都看過，請教一下主委，中央銀行曾經有一個對美國財政部匯率政策的報告，其中有提到美國財政部也密切關注臺灣非銀行之金融部門風險，包含匯率風險，就是指臺灣的壽險資金，還有國外投資的匯兌風險，如果一下從45%降到25%，有9兆的資金回來的話，因為你要變現嘛，會不會要賣美國的公債？會不會引發美國的高度關切？這個有沒有想過？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個當然是央行會更專業來回答這個問題，其實剛剛我們央行副總裁也有回答過這個問題，我覺得這麼大的金額在跨境的移動，我想一定會引發很大的影響，可能會引起很多很多大家的關切跟考慮，這是一定會的。"],["李委員坤城：還是建議一下金管會，第一個，用行政指導原則，逐步降低國外投資比例，然後檢討投資國內不動產的最低收益標準。上次有提過，壽險資金要求一定比例投入公共建設，當時金管會比較持保留的態度，我們雖然不支持一下子調降比例這麼多，但是我們都支持壽險業者應該要多一些資金……當然我們要提供多一些誘因，希望他們來投資公共建設，但是我看你們的報告還有再加油的部分。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，確實要加強，確實我們要更努力，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接著請賴惠員賴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","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我的意思是說除了局長自己去問之外政風有沒有介入啊"},{"start":269.844,"end":287.31,"text":"有啊當然有對局長你八月份要退休囉是是跟這件事情沒有關係吧完全沒有沒有關係個人的生涯規劃對是好那我再請教一下這一個這個主委那請這個保險局的局長是局長"},{"start":293.254,"end":306.444,"text":"在這個6月12號的時候大家也關心到就是說這個星光人壽還有這個山上人壽他們的這個資本市值率沒有達標嘛那時候你是提到說這個6月底之前呢"},{"start":307.92,"end":334.234,"text":"會聽他們的具體改善計畫現在也七月初了七月一號新光人壽的董事長由新光金控的董事長由原來人壽的董事長魏寶生來出任我看他在報紙上提出了一些具體改善的計畫請問一下局長好了這兩家公司的計畫你看過了嗎那你滿意嗎"},{"start":337.433,"end":358.643,"text":"跟委員報告,大概新光人壽的這個改善計畫就如媒體所說的,因為董事長大概已經對外說明了,他們有提出來不是媒體所說的啦,應該他有沒有把這個計畫,不是媒體講的,這個時候他有沒有把這個計畫給你他有把財業改善計畫給我們,那大概也如他所說的,就是他有提出現金增資的"},{"start":360.304,"end":360.404,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":380.396,"end":381.017,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":396.79,"end":397.611,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員"},{"start":423.644,"end":446.316,"text":"那所以現在我們就覺得他那個時間太長了那你給他一個DELINE這個部分可能我們會看看怎麼處理再給他一個時間所以換句話說他們的改善計畫新光人壽算是有通過了對對然後山上人壽沒有通過目前還沒有通過還沒有通過對對對那你給他們的DELINE計畫還要再提上來至少說計畫何時再提上來有沒有個DELINE"},{"start":448.538,"end":463.589,"text":"這個部分可能我們會有一些行政處理時間之後會確定這個時間我們也是希望他今年年底以前應該有一個進展你以為不能說這個新光人壽他已經講說八月了然後山上人壽可以拖到年底"},{"start":464.646,"end":483.823,"text":"看他的那個真正採取的措施需要的合理期間這個有時候還要適當是給壓力啊不然就一直拖啊這個部分我們會處理所以還是要給點壓力啦時間上也是一個壓力啊那請教一下主委今天提到就是說這個"},{"start":486.465,"end":489.547,"text":"要把這一個保險法第146條之四條降保險業的國外投資總額從45條降到25那金管會的立場勒?"},{"start":497.613,"end":519.711,"text":"各位委員報告我們剛剛也說過就是因為現在如果做這樣的更動對於保險業資產配置以及國內市場的衝擊可能會非常的大所以我們是持保留態度希望維持原來的條文不過老師講這個保險業者投資國內的這些公共建設的確比例是偏低這個2024年的第一季是1335億元然後佔整個這個保險業的資金才0.42%"},{"start":525.376,"end":539.372,"text":"然後佔這個距離你們法定的這個限額10%3.27兆距離相當的大所以現在問題在於說原本可以投資在國內的公共建設你要想辦法"},{"start":540.735,"end":565.359,"text":"讓他能夠投資不是說你現在連可以在國內投資的這些這個保險業的這些金額還沒有在國內投資你就說我要降低從45%然後降低到25%然後又引進了大概9兆的資金回到台灣所以這個也是大家的一個疑問就是說國內有沒有這些投資的標的可以吸引我們的保險業者來做投資的"},{"start":567.162,"end":587.823,"text":"剛剛不管是財政部部長或央行副總裁都有提到了就是說我們現在的現況確實距離法定上限目標很遠我們在政策上也是希望說臺灣的保險業能夠更多的資金投入臺灣因為臺灣確實未來需要很多公共建設只是說這個你們還要再提出更具體的計畫因為我有看你們的報告"},{"start":588.704,"end":615.176,"text":"經管外財政部我看過那請教一下主委啦這一個中央銀行曾經有一個對這個美國財政部匯率政策的報告那其中提到說這個美國財政部呢這一個也密切關注這個台灣分銀行金融部門的風險包含這個匯率的風險就是說台灣的受險資金還有國外投資的這個匯率風險那如果啦這個一下從45降到25有9兆的這個資金回來的話"},{"start":617.233,"end":626.725,"text":"那會不會說因為你要變現嘛會不會要賣美國的公債然後呢會不會引發這個美國的高度關切這個有沒有想過啊"},{"start":627.904,"end":650.826,"text":"這個當然是央行會更專業來回答這個問題我剛才其實我們央行副總裁也有回答過這個問題那我會覺得這個東西這麼大的金額在跨境的移動我想一定會引發很大的影響我想可能會引起很多很多的大家的關切跟考慮這一定會這還是建議一下金管會啦第一個用行政指導原則齁"},{"start":652.027,"end":655.771,"text":"這個逐步降低國外投資的比例然後檢討投資國內不動財的最低收益標準"},{"start":659.659,"end":685.148,"text":"那上次有提過啦就是說受選資金要求一定比例投入公共建設當時金管會是比較投持這個保留的態度但是呢這個我們雖然不支持說一下子調降比例這麼多但是我們都支持受選業者應該要多一些資金當然我們要提供多一些誘因希望他們來投資公共建設但是我看你們報告還有在加油的部分是確實要加強確實我們要更努力謝謝好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":693.584,"end":694.208,"text":"接著請賴會員、賴委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"154462","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154462","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd963804d17c24c05e27d0a78c1009ae5ed15f5ccb8d26769b71115e0c3c9f18cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:03:48 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10:18:17","影片長度":"00:14:29","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:03:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:18:17+08:00","duration":869,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":431,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時3分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：葛委員，你好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長好。今天豔陽高照，但是我們的文化，在AI的世界裡頭卻可能見不得光喔！我想先請教一下部長，我們今天的文化資產，對內具有教育跟歷史的意義，對外則有提升臺灣國際的知名度，及發展觀光的重要功能，我相信這些應該是大家都同意的。我想請教您，假設國外的朋友想要到臺灣進行文化的深度旅遊，他如果透過AI的工具，初步瞭解臺灣文化資產保存的情況，想要來規劃一個很棒的旅遊行程，你認為他們可以透過AI工具得到正確的答案嗎？","我們先來看一下第一個基本題，請問我們臺灣目前有多少國定古蹟？以下我們找了華爾街日報各個評比比較熱門的幾個AI，加上我們的TAIDE，我們讓它做了一些回復。那我們想請教一下部長，當中何者的答復比較是正確答案，或者是比較接近正確的答案？部長要不要感受一下AI跟人類的差距啊？有沒有哪一個是比較接近正確的答案？"],["李部長遠：111處，Gemini那個比較對。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，我們看一下正確答案，確實我們的AI現在還及不了人類，尤其及不了部長喔！非常感謝部長的答復。","第二個部分，我們也來問AI，就是請舉出幾個臺灣的國定古蹟？這個是AI的答復，部長，您覺得這幾組答案裡面，有哪幾個AI工具回答是完全正確的？前面4個就是國際評比時經常在使用的，下面最後這個TAIDE是我們臺灣自己做的。"],["李部長遠：3跟4比較對。"],["葛委員如鈞：3跟4比較對是不是？就是Copilot跟Gemini，我想文化部對於文資保存的主題，顯然是做了非常多的功課，沒有錯喔，3跟4的答案是完全正確的。有點可惜啊！我們臺灣自己做的TAIDE答復是錯誤的，故宮博物院並不是我們的國定古蹟。部長，我相信你也相當瞭解啦！其實我自己從進到立法院以來就一再強調開放資料的重要性，您答對了，文化部也答對了，但是我們的AI竟然答錯了，表示什麼呢？表示他們得到的資訊可能不夠完整。","我一直在講，如果我擁有蒙娜麗莎這幅畫，我作為擁有者會做出來最錯誤的決定，就是禁止她被印在T-shirt和馬克杯上面，因為這樣子再過50年或再過500年，全世界就再也沒有人知道蒙娜麗莎這幅畫了。開放是文化唯一的生存之道，開放越多人知道，才有越多的人想要一親芳澤，並且認識她、擁抱她。","從前面我們詢問AI兩個問題裡面，我們其實就已經發現了，AI工具的回答不完全正確，一部分的原因可能是資料過舊沒有更新；另外一部分的原因，其實很可能是我們的相關部會對於AI去開放文化資產保存的資料，讓它去學習可能不夠完整、不夠主動、不夠積極，導致有一些相關的錯誤。部長，我想請教，你手中或者文化部正握有全世界獨一無二的瑰寶，就是我們臺灣的文化資產，您是否願意更主動積極地向全世界以及全世界的AI開放臺灣豐富的文化涵養，讓它50年、100年以後都能夠被世人所惦念，讓更多人想要一親芳澤？"],["李部長遠：這一點我要先瞭解一下法律，因為我個人的意願好像還要再考慮法律問題、著作權等等喔！"],["葛委員如鈞：我想法律是要隨著時代改變，我們現在就在立法院，如果您覺得法律有什麼需要修正，我們可以一起來協作。部長，如果您也同意這樣子的方向啦！是不是能夠提出具體的向AI開放文化資料的期程？法律哪裡有問題？我們一起來努力嘛！尤其TAIDE我們剛剛看到一個答錯的，是臺灣開發的第一個生成式AI，我個人非常支持，政府也應該全力支持，但是從回答內容來看，TAIDE自己作為我們臺灣自己開發的AI，資料卻是AI裡面最舊的。我們認為包含文化部在內，各個部會的資料都應該儘速向它開放，包含文字、圖片、影片，甚至包含3D模型，部長，我們希望未來能不能往這個方向來研議？"],["李部長遠：好，我們會研究這個部分。"],["葛委員如鈞：接下來談到文資保存，其實文化部依文化資產保存法，委託成立的國定古蹟分區專業服務團隊，想請教一下部長，是不是有掌握目前國定古蹟分區專業服務團隊的成員人數一共有幾人？"],["李部長遠：32位。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好喔！32人的團隊要負責全國111處國定古蹟的巡檢輔導，建立個案資料還要定期更新，人力非常的吃緊。其實目前國內外我們剛剛只是講說，我們可以主動積極地提供資料給AI，可是AI也可以主動積極地來幫助我們，我們來看一下國內外有幾個運用AI工具做文資保存的案例，第一個，日本文化廳從2020年起，運用AI檢查城樓、寺院、古宅等等。文化廳也說，他們也面臨人員緊縮、老齡化的問題，希望透過AI，用數據累積的方式，不只協助巡察，還協助預判未來什麼樣的情況、什麼樣的氣候可能會面臨需要修理的情況。","再來我們看法國，2019年一把大火，讓八百多年歷史的聖母院付之一炬。我作為一個阿宅，真的覺得還好我們有玩遊戲，遊戲公司之前在製作遊戲的時候，有做全面3DVR的掃描，導致高解析度的巴黎聖母院有被虛擬化、AI化，使得聖母院得以進行更快速的災後修復工作。","在臺灣，2021年嘉義市政府有跟雲科大合作，建置戶外AI智慧古物監測保存系統，透過AI進行變形或者傾斜狀況的紀錄以及監測。2022年雲科大的團隊更開發出全臺首部AI文物智慧巡檢機器人，跟苗栗縣政府合作。","想請教一下部長，近5年來，文化部有沒有推動運用AI科技協助文資保存的計畫？"],["李部長遠：文化資產的鑑定科技資料都完全……未來我們會做，把AI的技術引進我們原來就有的監測技術，包括文化資產現地保存。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，現在有沒有？"],["李部長遠：現在沒有。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，確實我們詢問過貴部，有說近5年文資局雖然尚無使用AI進行保存的計畫，但也希望未來可以評議，為什麼？文化部向行政院爭取歷史與文化資產維護發展計畫第5期，6年的計畫總經費高達160億，從今年開始施行。能不能請部長研議一下，運用AI協助文化保存，納入這一次跨年期的計畫當中？這個有沒有機會研議？"],["李部長遠：沒有問題，委員的建議非常好，我們會優先納入。"],["葛委員如鈞：AI是要幫助人類，日前卓榮泰院長也在答詢的時候說，要落實部部有AI，但是目前還沒有看到什麼AI的人在部會裡，也許文化部可以搶先，各個部會都要用AI人才，這是院長的承諾。部長可不可以承諾，從文資保存部門做起，至少進用一名AI的人才，並且用AI協助文資保存，讓古蹟服務團隊的人力可以變成33加N，等於多了一個AI的人才，運用AI擴大人類的能力，甚至無限擴增，有沒有機會研議？"],["李部長遠：絕對有，因為行政院目前鼓勵每一個部會都用AI的技術。"],["葛委員如鈞：希望你們在一個月內將相關研議結果，以書面提供給本席，有機會嗎？"],["李部長遠：是，可以。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝部長。接下來要跟部長談一個很重要的議題──文化平權，我們剛剛講的只是普及，現在要講平權。近年來文化部致力於推動文化平權，每年花費約7億元的預算。想請教一下部長，除了消弭實體世界中的歧視和偏見，文化部對於虛擬世界、AI世界的文化平權，有沒有提出相關的政策、規劃？有沒有計畫投入相應的經費？"],["李部長遠：我想請司長回答。"],["魏司長秋宜：委員好。謝謝委員的指教，目前文化平權預算的推動確實比較著重在實體的場域跟活動，這個部分我們會納入今年至往後推動的重點。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。在這邊想提醒各位官員，我們在社群媒體的時代已經見證了，digital media、社群媒體對人類認知產生的影響是巨大而且快速的，AI絕對不會更慢，只會更快，而且更隱性。歐盟已經講了，會有輕推的作用，這個輕推會是微小但是巨大的影響，而且我們看不見。","為什麼我們會提醒部長，除了實體世界以外，也要重視虛擬世界、AI世界的平權？我特地準備了幾張AI繪製的圖片，我們首先請AI繪製了兩張醫生的圖片，再請AI繪製了兩張護理師的圖片，再請AI再畫兩張公車司機的圖片，再請AI畫了兩張空服人員的圖片，再請AI畫了兩張保母的圖片，再請AI畫了兩張副總統（vice president）的圖片，我們用中文，大家可以看一下，最後我們還讓它來一張剛剛所有角色的大合照。請教一下部長，有沒有發現這些圖片有奇怪的地方？"],["李部長遠：性別上大家有些偏見，還有階級。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯。首先，這些圖片帶有性別的刻板印象，醫生被預設為男性，護理師被預設為女性，而且一向面容姣好，公車司機一定是男性，空服人員、保母則一定是女性，還有副總統畫了4張，全部是男性。其次，這些圖片很可能還隱藏了種族歧視，所有的職業除了建築工人是有色人種以外，幾乎全部是白人，圖片當中亞洲人的身影寥寥無幾，明顯與真實世界的情況相異，當然也跟臺灣的情況不符。部長可以稍微思考一下AI的偏見如何產生。我們再來看一下文化的部分，請教一下部長，以下的圖片能不能分辨出哪一位是新娘？"],["李部長遠：中間的。"],["葛委員如鈞：事實上全部都是，地球上明明有那麼多元的文化，每一種文化都有風格獨具的儀式，但是我們如果請AI畫出新娘禮服的話，連畫N次全部都長一個樣子。其實史丹佛大學的研究已經發現了，AI在開發的階段，它所學習的數據跟文化大多不包括亞洲國家，這會導致它對世界的認知是有偏差的。我們認為AI帶有偏見的情況應該受到政府部門，尤其文化部門的重視，因為歐美國家想要藉由AI工具，將西方的文化塑造成主流文化，未來可能會引發AI文化殖民。","我們今天也看到中研院院士孔祥重先生提到，臺灣擁有民主、多元、自由的價值，我們認為AI應該結合文化，要結合民主，要結合平權。黃仁勳先生說臺灣是AI的中心，這雖然是一句褒獎，但何嘗不是一種提醒？只有文化開放，只有提供資訊讓AI學習，才能夠落實虛擬世界、AI世界的文化平權，讓臺灣不要淪落為文化的邊陲。臺灣不要只做AI的機房，90%的AI機器是臺灣做的，未來有沒有可能文化裡面，有90%的華人文化是由臺灣提供？部長能不能承諾，接下來文化部將會投入資源，進行虛擬世界、AI世界的文化普及、文化平權？我們能不能一起努力消弭虛擬世界裡頭一切大欺小、文化殖民、AI殖民的刻板印象跟歧視？我們有沒有機會一起努力？"],["李部長遠：謝謝葛委員，這個真的非常重要，我們會列入未來施政的考慮。"],["葛委員如鈞：開放資料，讓AI認識真正的臺灣，認識真正的人類文化。謝謝部長，我們一起為文化平權努力。感謝。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝葛委員。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員。","等一下吳沛憶委員質詢完，我們休息5分鐘。","接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐富癸","林倩綺","林楚茵"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9590937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.274093750000002,"end":11.910968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.09659375,"end":12.434093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.99096875,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.31909375,"end":90.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.13471875,"end":94.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.83034375000001,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.97784375,"end":102.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.20909375000001,"end":139.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.51534375,"end":140.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.97096875,"end":141.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.20721875,"end":141.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.24096875,"end":141.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.56159375000001,"end":179.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.96909375,"end":198.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.68346875,"end":257.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.77534375,"end":260.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.47971875,"end":260.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.59346875,"end":267.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.21284375,"end":303.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.97596875,"end":271.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.10596875000005,"end":336.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.31596875,"end":336.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.33284375,"end":336.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.34971875,"end":338.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.16784375000003,"end":451.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.17971875,"end":465.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.94971875000005,"end":466.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.72596875000005,"end":468.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.14346875,"end":468.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.83534375000005,"end":470.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.67471875,"end":471.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.80971875000006,"end":471.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.43409375000005,"end":504.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.49221875,"end":504.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.84659375,"end":504.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.86346875000004,"end":506.63534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.07409375000003,"end":511.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.09034375000005,"end":530.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.0703437500001,"end":551.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.19784375,"end":557.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.9015937500001,"end":592.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.82409375,"end":596.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.8447187500001,"end":613.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.1672187500001,"end":661.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.8347187500001,"end":666.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.6103437500001,"end":670.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.06534375,"end":673.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.30971875,"end":677.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.64221875,"end":679.6884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.1609687499999,"end":686.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.26534375,"end":690.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.19721875,"end":691.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.29846875,"end":693.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.31534375,"end":692.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.44159375,"end":735.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.83534375,"end":739.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.0672187499999,"end":741.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.95284375,"end":753.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.6640937500001,"end":787.2834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":787.8403437500001,"end":809.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":810.57096875,"end":852.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.77534375,"end":856.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.68596875,"end":859.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":860.33534375,"end":868.9753437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.884,"end":12.186,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長有請部長"},{"start":19.592,"end":48.715,"text":"各位委員你好部長好今天艷陽高照但是我們的文化在AI的世界裡頭卻可能見不得光我想先請教一下部長我們今天文化資產我相信應該是大家都同意對內具有教育跟歷史的意義對外則有提升台灣國際的知名度發展觀光的重要功能我想請教你假設國外的朋友想要到台灣進行文化的深度旅遊"},{"start":49.495,"end":50.016,"text":"請問我們台灣目前有多少國定古蹟?"},{"start":68.012,"end":90.356,"text":"那以下我們找了這個華爾街日報比較各個評比比較熱門的幾個AI加上我們的台德我們讓他做了一些回覆那我們想請教一下部長當中何者的答覆比較是正確答案或者比較接近正確的答案部長要不要感受一下AI跟人類的差距有沒有哪一個是比較接近正確的"},{"start":96.049,"end":96.729,"text":"請舉出幾個台灣的國定古蹟"},{"start":122.398,"end":139.687,"text":"那這個是AI的答覆啦看看部長您覺得這幾組答案裡面有哪幾個AI的工具回答是完全正確的嗎前面四個就是國際在評比的時候經常在使用的那下面最後這個台德是我們台灣自己做的"},{"start":140.603,"end":160.642,"text":"三跟四比較對三跟四比較對是不是Copilot跟Gemini這個我想文化部對於文資保存的這個主題顯然是做了非常多的功課沒有錯在三跟四的答案是完全正確的那有點可惜我們這個台灣自己做的台德答覆是錯誤的故宮博物院並不是我們的國定古蹟"},{"start":161.923,"end":179.014,"text":"那我想部長我相信你也相當了解啦其實我自己從進到立法院以來就一再強調開放資料的重要性您答對了文化部也答對了但我們AI竟然答錯了表示什麼呢表示他們得到的資訊可能不夠完整"},{"start":180.255,"end":197.741,"text":"我一直在講如果我擁有蒙娜麗莎這幅畫我會作為擁有者會做出來最錯誤的決定就是禁止它被印在T恤或馬克杯上面因為這樣再過50年或再過500年全世界就沒有人再知道蒙娜麗莎這幅畫"},{"start":199.069,"end":225.104,"text":"開放是文化唯一的生存之道開放越多人知道才有越多的人想要一清方擇並且認識它、擁抱它從前面我們詢問AI兩個問題裡面我們其實就已經發現了AI工具的回答不完全正確一部分的原因可能是資料過久沒有更新另外一部分的原因其實很可能是我們的相關部會對於AI去開放"},{"start":225.504,"end":239.72,"text":"文化資產保存的資料讓他去學習可能不夠完整不夠主動不夠積極導致有一些相關的錯誤部長我想請教您手中正有握有著全世界或者文化部"},{"start":240.401,"end":240.721,"text":"這點我要先了解一下法律"},{"start":261.636,"end":283.328,"text":"因為我個人的意願好像我還得考慮這個法律問題制作權等等我想法律是要隨著時代改變我們現在就在立法院所以如果您覺得法律有什麼希望我們可以一起來協作部長如果您也同意這樣的方向是不是能夠提出具體的像AI開放文化資料的期程"},{"start":284.108,"end":302.242,"text":"法律哪裡有問題我們一起來努力嘛尤其台德我們剛剛看到的一個答錯的是台灣開發的第一個深層式的AI我個人非常支持政府也應該全力支持但是從回答內容來看台德自己作為台灣我們自己開發的AI資料卻是AI裡面最舊的"},{"start":303.623,"end":322.25,"text":"我們認為包含文化部在內各個部會的資料都應該儘速向他開放包含文字包含圖片包含影片甚至包含3D模型我們希望部長能不能未來往這個方向來研議好 我們會研究這部分我想接下來談到文資保存其實文化部依文化資產保存法委託成立的"},{"start":325.311,"end":338.34,"text":"國定古蹟分區專業服務團隊想請教一下部長是否是有掌握目前國定古蹟分區專業服務團隊的成員人數一共有幾人?32人的團隊要負責全國111處的國定古蹟的巡檢輔導"},{"start":346.545,"end":364.07,"text":"建立個案資料還要定期更新人力非常吃緊其實目前國內外我們剛剛只是講說我們可以主動提供資料給AI可是AI也可以主動積極的來幫助我們我們來看一下國內外有幾個用AI工具運用文資保存的案例"},{"start":365.37,"end":391.411,"text":"日本在2020年起日本的文化廳運用AI來檢查城樓、寺院、古宅等等文化廳也說他們也面臨到人員緊縮、老齡化的問題希望透過AI用數據累積的方式不只協助巡查還協助預判未來什麼樣的情況、什麼樣的氣候可能會面臨到需要修理的情況"},{"start":392.412,"end":419.293,"text":"再來我們看法國2019年一把大火讓800多年歷史的聖母院複製一具但是還好我作為一個阿宅真的覺得還好我們有玩遊戲遊戲公司之前在做遊戲的時候有做了全面3D VR的掃描導致這個高解析度的巴黎聖母院有被虛擬化AI化使得聖母院得以進行更快速的災後修復的工作"},{"start":420.114,"end":444.363,"text":"在臺灣,2021年嘉義市政府有跟雲科大合作去建置所謂的戶外AI智慧古物監測保存系統,透過AI來進行變形或者傾斜狀況的紀錄以及監測。2022年雲科大的團隊更開發出全台首部AI文物智慧巡檢機器人,跟苗栗縣政府合作。想請教一下部長,"},{"start":445.023,"end":451.025,"text":"近5年來,文化部有沒有推動有關運用AI科技協助文資保存的計畫?現在有沒有?"},{"start":472.835,"end":486.008,"text":"確實我們詢問貴部說近5年這個文資局雖然尚無使用AI進行保存的計畫但也希望未來可以來做評議為什麼文化部向行政院爭取到歷史與文化資產維護發展計畫第5期6年的計畫總經費高達160億從今年開始施行"},{"start":492.014,"end":505.384,"text":"那我是希望能不能請部長來演繹一下能夠運用AI科技來協助文化保存納入這一次的跨年期的計畫當中這個有沒有機會來演繹我想我們會沒有問題委員你的建議非常好我們會納入那個優先"},{"start":511.408,"end":511.728,"text":"文資保存部門"},{"start":531.195,"end":550.355,"text":"做起至少禁用一名AI的人才並且用AI協助文資保存讓我們古蹟服務團隊的人力可以變成33加N等於是多一個AI的人才再運用AI等於去擴大人類的能力甚至無限擴增有沒有機會來研議"},{"start":552.427,"end":554.028,"text":"接下來要看部長談一個很重要的議題,文化平權。我們剛剛講的只是普及,但是我們現在要來講平權。"},{"start":572.523,"end":592.587,"text":"近年來文化部致力於推動文化平權每年花費約7億元的預算想請教一下部長除了消米實體世界中的歧視和偏見文化部對於虛擬世界對AI世界的文化平權有沒有提出相關的政策規劃有沒有計劃要投入相應的經費這個我想請資產來講"},{"start":598.095,"end":612.823,"text":"委員好那謝謝委員的指教那目前我們文化平權這個預算的推動確實是比較著重在一些實體的場域跟活動那委員這個部分的話我們會納入我們今年至於往後的一個推動的一個重點"},{"start":613.623,"end":630.151,"text":"謝謝在這邊想提醒各位官員我們在社群媒體的時代已經見證了Digital Media社群媒體對人類的認知產生的影響是巨大且快速的AI絕對不會更慢只會更快而且更隱性歐盟已經講了"},{"start":630.811,"end":631.932,"text":"請AI繪製了兩張醫生的圖片我們再請AI繪製了兩張護理師的圖片"},{"start":657.128,"end":686.369,"text":"我們再請AI再畫了兩張公車司機的圖片我們再請AI畫了兩張空服人員的圖片我們再請AI畫了兩張保姆的圖片我們再請AI畫了兩張副總統的圖片我們用中文大家可以看一下最後我們還讓他來了一張剛剛所有角色的大合照請教一下部長有沒有發現這些圖片有沒有奇怪的地方"},{"start":694.34,"end":714.093,"text":"首先這些圖片帶有性別刻板印象醫生被預設為男性護理師被預設為女性而且一向面容較好公車司機一定是男性空服人員保姆則一定是女性還有副總統我們畫的四張全部是男性其次這些圖片很可能還隱藏了種族歧視"},{"start":714.713,"end":734.971,"text":"所有的職業．除了建築工人．有色人種以外．幾乎全部是白人．圖片當中亞洲人的身影寥寥無幾．明顯與真實世界的情況．當然也跟台灣的情況不符．部長您可以稍微思考一下．AI的偏見是如何產生．我們再來看一下文化的部分．請教一下部長以下的圖片．能不能分辨出哪一位是新娘．中間的事實上全部都是"},{"start":743.001,"end":764.339,"text":"地球上明明有那麼多元的文化每種文化都有風格獨具的儀式但是我們如果請AI畫出新娘禮服的話連畫恩賜全部都長一個樣子所以我想其實史丹佛大學研究已經發現AI在開發的階段他所學習的數據跟文化大多不包括亞洲國家"},{"start":765.68,"end":786.895,"text":"這會導致他們對這個世界的認知是有偏差的我們認為AI帶有偏見的情況應該要受到政府相關部門尤其文化部門的重視歐美國家想要藉由AI工具將西方的文化塑造成主流文化未來可能會有所謂的AI文化殖民引發在之後"},{"start":787.956,"end":809.547,"text":"我們在今天也看到了中研院院士孔祥崇先生有提到台灣擁有民主、多元、自由的價值我們認為AI應該要結合文化、要結合民主、要結合平權黃恩勛先生說台灣是AI的中心這雖然是一句褒獎但何嘗不是一種提醒"},{"start":810.683,"end":829.378,"text":"只有文化開放只有提供資訊讓文化AI來學習才能夠落實虛擬世界AI世界的文化平權讓台灣不要淪落為所謂文化的邊陲我們台灣不要只做AI的機房90%的AI的機器是台灣做的"},{"start":829.718,"end":830.518,"text":"謝謝各位委員 這個真的非常重要我們會列入我們未來的施政的一些考慮"},{"start":860.53,"end":867.658,"text":"開放資料讓AI認識真正的台灣認識真正的人類文化謝謝部長我們一起為文化平權的努力感謝"}]}},{"id":"154460","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154460","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd0955dff09f0b478b266d74c0b9571b08d15f5ccb8d26769b1307287ca052fc045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:01:20 - 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我想沈委員所提到的這個今天早上的新聞這個刑事警察大隊已經發動搜索偵破這一個個案之後也移送這個地檢署來做偵辦當中那麼我們對於這個部分因為其實公司的帳戶法人的帳戶過去作為人頭帳戶之用也不是沒有但如果說沈委員所提到現在因為我們洗錢防治"},{"start":184.409,"end":184.629,"text":"．沈發惠"},{"start":205.799,"end":212.421,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":227.245,"end":253.536,"text":"目前我們所設定的包括洗錢房子等是一個破口所以這部分刑法部要提早來研議我們會跟金管會因為這個賬戶現在的這個新設開設相關的前置的這個審查還是由金管會這邊來做處理那公司賬戶是不是有這個成立的過程太過容易或是等等或是他的交易行為什麼異常我們可以來做交流來做研討來做預防"},{"start":254.315,"end":272.82,"text":"那這個針對今天的這個民法第205條的修正案我想剛才前面幾位委員都有提到大概我們這個提案委員我看他今天這樣子的提案委員跟今天所排定的議程基本上受到各不管不分黨派大家都支持支持這個"},{"start":275.961,"end":276.242,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":305.401,"end":306.863,"text":"國務委員的版本是超過16%的部分無效"},{"start":321.363,"end":329.69,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":346.207,"end":366.934,"text":"這個修法跟206條的適用關係,這部分是不是請市長再進一步的來說明?好,跟我們報告,這個螢幕上所顯示的這個最高法院103年度這個判決,事實上它的背景是在這個修法前,上次修法前,所以它會有請求權存在與否的問題。"},{"start":368.595,"end":375.049,"text":"但是現在我們的修法已經是無效了所以其實應該是要用新法來做討論那現在我們還要再修這個法"},{"start":379.295,"end":399.586,"text":"他的問題就是說不能因為我們修了這一個基本上假設我們簡稱說它是視同是利息的一部分就把這些巧立明牧的這些費用或是其他債權去額外收取的這些金錢都把它計入利息來跟這個法定的利益上限來做的時候不能因為這樣就排除206條對這些項目的適用可能性"},{"start":402.788,"end":426.208,"text":"那我想這個很多的民法學者又跟我們提醒這一點所以我們會看是要在文字裡面去敘述市長這部分我想每一個委員都一樣希望我們法務部能夠盡快的就這些相關的這些法案能夠做出新的那個就是你們能夠有相對的相對的針對目前的這205條的修正你們能夠提出你們法務部相對的意見那這個這個部分我想這個剛才這個幾位委員的"},{"start":431.292,"end":441.226,"text":"大概都已經問得蠻清楚。我先請市長請回。主席我們現在請金管會,今天金管會是銀行局主祕。"},{"start":446.427,"end":465.712,"text":"主委早啦,我想剛才我跟市長的這些對話裡面其實有很多的部分其實就牽涉到金管會啦這個包括說我們提到的現在新的這個現在新型態的以這個公司以這個公司的人頭公司的帳戶來進行作為詐騙的人頭帳戶這樣子相關的規定另外就是說我們今天所討論的主題除了這個民法"},{"start":472.193,"end":490.563,"text":"就民法205條直接就這個利息的上限做規定之外目前這個有關這個租賃公司的這些融資業務我想這部分是我們金管會所主管的業務這個我我本席在111年的這個12月7號我在財政委員會我就曾經質詢過質詢過有關這個"},{"start":500.562,"end":520.789,"text":"現在大概我們一般的租賃公司它的業務大概有幾種型態,包括資本的租賃,包括營業性租賃,重要的是商品買賣的分期付款,所謂先買後付,BMPL這個部分,另外可能還有一些營收賬款的買賣,資金的待遇等等。"},{"start":521.428,"end":544.133,"text":"但是我那時候就針對這個BMPL我就有提出質詢那時候金管會的答覆是說會跟這個相關的業者來進行溝通溝通的結果我們看到就是說我們目前金管會的方式是用這個業者的自律規範來規範現在目前的這個租賃公司的融資業務對不對"},{"start":548.855,"end":573.547,"text":"是的委員目前來說就是我們有請臺北市租賃公會就是參考這個大家的意見來訂了這個他們也針對這樣的一個所謂BNPL業務訂了一個自律規範這部分就是我最後要跟你們溝通我們看到各國的立法例你針對相關這種租賃公司每一個國家大家都有相關的法令在規範只有我們用自律規範"},{"start":575.134,"end":599.945,"text":"我們目前對這些租賃公司沒有這個法律的約束力的我們美國有用這個消費者信用保護法連香港香港他們用放緩人條例就來規範這些租賃公司日本他們有貸金業法澳門這個租賃這個融資租賃公司法律制度只有台灣用治癒規範在規範用治癒規範在規範他最大的問題是這些治癒規範第一個他也沒有法則"},{"start":603.905,"end":630.255,"text":"自律規範沒有法則啊所以你違反這個自律規範他沒有任何的法則第二就是這個自律規範其實我個人就按照這個工會的自律規範去看這幾家業者我看這幾家業者網站連這幾大業者都沒有確實的按照自律規範在執行了他們說像自律規範第二條我這邊就舉這個例子了自律規範第二條他說"},{"start":632.305,"end":643.369,"text":"這個先買後付業者應該要建立客訴專責單位結果上網去看這些公司都沒有什麼客訴他們都沒有成立客訴專責單位啊他們只有在網站上寫一個所謂聯絡我們的電話就這樣也沒有說明說這聯絡我們這個公司的電話打去是總機呢還是專責的客服單位呢"},{"start":658.991,"end":659.411,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":683.14,"end":698.057,"text":"但是你們盡管會主管,你們現在只用自律規範來規範這些租賃公司,我個人認為是相當的不足啦。包括他本身就沒有法則,包括你這自律規範本身他們業者的遵守程度也都很低啦齁。這個我時間也到。"},{"start":700.539,"end":715.094,"text":"這部分我還是希望金管會能夠提升我們對這些融資公司他們的監管的強度但是這個部分也特別要包括在今天的修法裡面就是說"},{"start":716.527,"end":743.032,"text":"一般的這個民眾他的這個融資管道大概就你有財力健全的他就到金融機構去直接去貸款接下來下第二層才是我們今天所討論的這些相關的融資公司但如果我們這個部分我們把他緊縮到一個程度之後可能真正社會需要他就往第三層跑了他就往這個地下金融去地下錢莊借錢了"},{"start":744.69,"end":768.866,"text":"所以這個如何拿捏這個中間這一層融資公司的這個監理跟他們的相關利潤其實像今天的修法法務部認為說這個206條巧取利益但事實上司法實務在判決的時候最常出現的就是說這算不算巧取利益"},{"start":770.773,"end":791.105,"text":"連司法院的報告上面就寫說因為借貸還款也有一定的合理成本費用所以他這些他所立的這些名目收的這些費用到底是合法的成本費用還是巧利還是巧取利益這個在深圳實務上的爭論就在這裡"},{"start":793.516,"end":807.137,"text":"所以這部分我個人也是比較支持法務部的立場希望說我們能夠等待法務部就相關的法規做盤整之後提出法務部自己的版本之後我們再來進行審查以上"}]}},{"id":"154459","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154459","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd19b4376fb5cdbd8fcb3f5941fe168625d15f5ccb8d26769b6348e1de93919e675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:58:19 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10:11:08","影片長度":"00:12:49","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:58:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:11:08+08:00","duration":769,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時58分）主席，有請彭主委跟嚴副總裁。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["郭委員國文：還有副總裁。"],["主席：嚴副總裁嗎？慢慢來，沒關係，請嚴副總裁。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。主委，因為大家討論蠻多的，假設今天這個條文通過的話，預計大概有9.53兆資金會回到臺灣，那臺灣的資金會去哪裡，大家非常清楚，不是去房市、就去股市，依照目前資金過剩的情況下，我對這個條文，老實講，羅召委，我真的沒有辦法贊成，因為我其實對這個資金氾濫的問題憂心忡忡！","就如同我藉著這個議題也請教一下兩位，我發現央行對於整個不動產、土建融的指標是不同的，你看看央行，不動產放款占全部放款金額的比重是13.75；但是對照金管會，扣除掉土銀之後，只有國銀部分的不動產根據第七十二條之二，央行的金額居然低過於金管會。你們有沒有覺得在這兩個金額當中有什麼樣的落差？我記得央行的報告有提過，特別是三高的部分就提到這兩項。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：主要是金融債券的……就是第七十二條之二把那一塊放進去。"],["郭委員國文：把金融債券的部分拿掉了？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：對。"],["郭委員國文：那金額大概多少呢？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：金融債券應該是有……直接在不動產那邊的我沒有資料，但金融債券大概是一兆多左右。"],["郭委員國文：主要還是在於所謂金額的部分，我們還是要釐清那個數字嘛，麻煩總裁會後再給我一下，因為終究要一個統一的指標來看待會比較清楚，比例上也不同、金額上也不同，本席沒有辦法理解這個部分。","如果是這樣子的話，拉回來說，我就教於彭主委，彭主委，我們在2000年的時候就銀行法第七十二條之二這個所謂的天條，可是天條當中居然還有後門條款，我所說的後門條款就是第七十二條的第二項，也就是說，主管機關在必要時還可以規定銀行在但書放款還有一個最高額度，我就教於彭主委，這個最高額度到底是多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在單單看第七十二條之二當然是30%，那個數字剛剛委員也有提到，現在是在26跟27之間波動，都沒有逾限，現在如果加上那個部分的詳細數字，我可以請莊局長來……"],["郭委員國文：銀行局。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：來！莊局長請。"],["主席：銀行局莊局長。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，如果排除掉的部分我們把它加回來的話，其實還是沒有超過30。"],["郭委員國文：那總數多少？"],["莊局長琇媛：大概差不多29左右。"],["郭委員國文：29左右？"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["郭委員國文：29左右就接近了？"],["莊局長琇媛：對，接近了，不過這個部分我們有要求銀行要嚴格的控管。"],["郭委員國文：要嚴格的控管，所以說已經接近30%，看起來26、27，但是其實接近29，詳細的數字再給我一下。","但是第七十二條之二的這五款當中，你還有一個解壓縮條款，為什麼說是解壓縮條款呢？2018年金管會又出一個函，這個函號很長我就不說了，在這個擴大解釋的部分當中，包括醫院、學校、政府，這還可以理解；到後面，主委，我跟你提醒一下，連廠房的貸款金額也排除，還有都更的條款也排除，甚至連營建工程的營運周轉金也排除！我覺得你這個後門會不會開得太大啦？主委！"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實前陣子我們有在檢討裡面的……"],["郭委員國文：有要檢討？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，有關它的範圍跟定義，這部分我們會請銀行局再來檢視。"],["郭委員國文：對，你把天條開一個大後門，那後門越開越大，怪不得這個土建融的資本會不斷的集中嘛，結果後來發現原來始作俑者是來自於天條的一個後門條款嘛！主委，你這個真的要好好地把關一下啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們會注意喔，剛剛局長有提到關於都更部分，局長要不要簡單補充一下？"],["郭委員國文：來。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，因為107年的這個裡面，有一些像都更危老這個部分的話，這本來在都更或危老的法律規定裡面就已經排除了，我們只是把它納到107年的這個函。"],["郭委員國文：當初你們就應該要有這個警覺性嘛，你如果任何相關土建融的規定、任何單一法規的部分都予以排除的話，土建融金額就不斷的上升，不是嗎？那你這個天條的意義又在哪裡？30%的上限又在哪裡？這天花板會自動的調升，浮動式的耶，不是嗎？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我想說……"],["郭委員國文：所有央行的報告當中最關鍵的因素，之所以今天房地產會居高不下，就是資本過度集中嘛，做了那麼多信用管制為的也是不希望資本那麼過度集中嘛，不是嗎？結果我們自己在放水、我們自己在開後門！主委，麻煩一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們會來好好……"],["郭委員國文：你再檢討嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們審視一下。"],["郭委員國文：那大概什麼時候檢討出來？一個月？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們可以一個月後把那個報告再跟委員說明。"],["郭委員國文：你們要包括如何檢討、如何限縮，想盡辦法把後門關起來，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：不要讓資本一直集中上去嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["郭委員國文：接下來我想問一下主委的部分，主委，你也知道本席很關心台中商銀，有關台中商銀本席去跟你瞭解一下，你們總共前前後後金檢了5次，在第二次的時候就發現了這個交際費的申報有所缺失，你們也有做行政處分，但是真正送到地檢署是在案發4年之後，這一點我想請主委可能要再說明清楚，因為你現在把所有的焦點放在檢查局一個稽核人員跟王貴鋒的秘書有往來，這個是檢查局內部的內稽、內控出問題，可是這家公司的內稽、內控出問題，我們要怎麼處理？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我待會請檢查局跟銀行局來補充，不過就金融監理而言，我們是根據銀行法裡面的規定，看他有沒有違反我們的內規，當然我們如果發覺到內情重大的時候，因為我們有駐會檢察官，我們就會有一個SOP，會跟他討論這個案子。"],["郭委員國文：對，本席就是在討論你的SOP，你的SOP應該是出了問題，你回去好好研究這個案子，好好調整一下啦！不要過度寬鬆啦！","第二個，你知道嗎？在你們檢查局當中，你們有去查過嗎？台中商銀為什麼蓋企業總部？資本額300億的銀行結果花了100億來蓋這個大樓，你不覺得不合比例嗎？而且還挖了10層樓，地下室還挖了10層樓，原因是聽說臺中的砂石特別好，這一個牽扯到土地出售方是誰？我跟你說，就我理解是興富發，中間牽扯到仲介的這一個交易人是誰，你要去查清楚，這一件金檢局有沒有送到地檢署，你也應該查清楚！背後的利益結構，你沒有把它披露出來，到現在為止還疑雲重重，不是把焦點放在那一個可憐的公務人員，因為交情或錯交朋友，然後現在好像事情就跑到他身上去了，主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，不過我想本會人員涉案部分應該跟這個會從不同的角度考量，自己內部控制有這個問題，我們也深表遺憾，我們也在內部做過很多檢討，然後也做過很多的改善措施，我也責成檢查局一定務必要落實……"],["郭委員國文：講白一點，這個案子你要去重新看一下有無缺失、有無該處分沒有處分、有無該移送沒有移送，你要重新去思考這件事情，在你上任之後來建立一個範例，好不好？金融機關的內稽、內控出了這麼大的問題，對不對？好，牽扯到內稽、內控的問題，你又看到牽扯到獨董的角色，一個立法委員兼任獨董，當他擔任獨董，這個公司治理出問題，立法委員出來跟你講話的時候，這個是獨董還是門神？我是說假設有這種情況的話，這是第一個狀況。","第二個，你去看過往在幾年前樂陞案就有類似這種獨董掏空400億，但3個獨董都沒有事情，你難道都是簽到而已嗎？等下課嗎？過了這麼多年，獨董現在的狀況就是有權無責，有的獨董薪資一年隨便就上千億，大股東提名拿了1,000億，他還有獨立性嗎？少則平均行情大概100萬，難道獨董可以這樣有權無責嗎？我不點名我前同事，除了前同事李姓立委之外，他的獨董還有誰？一個是國民黨的大佬徐立德的姪子叫徐立曄，專門找這種人，這種人的專業能力在哪裡？是關係取向還是專業取向？你們要不要搞清楚？要不要課予獨董應該有的責任，這是第一個你要去思考的問題。","第二個，有沒有不適任獨董的黑名單？就像我們政府採購法當中，審查委員的名冊當中有一些不好的，就把他剔除掉，有沒有可能？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：獨立董事是定在證交法裡面的規定，當然制度我們都會與時俱進來檢討，我會請證期局來檢討這個問題。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，獨董基本上是監察人角色的轉換，他的權力不是一般的董事喔！薪酬委員會、審計委員會他幾乎都是當然的成員。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，現在是。"],["郭委員國文：監察人的部分沒有好好監察，以至於內稽、內控出問題，他是在會計師前面的內部把關者，卻陪著整個負責人去吃喝玩樂、坐飛機出國旅遊，這還像獨董嗎？虧損掏空了11億，他卻沒有事情，然後呢？難道不能類似美國的部分，對會計事務所一樣的究責嗎？現在我們要討論會計事務所、要跟他究責，這個獨董難道不應該究責嗎？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：獨立董事是也是公司法董事的一部分，關於這個部分，特別是獨立董事是由金管會主政，但是一般董事該負的責任，他還是一樣要按照公司法跟一般的來負責。"],["郭委員國文：他跟一般董事的權力又更不一樣，他連一張股票都沒有，就可以行使這麼大的權力，他代表的是一個公信力，他代表是一種公權力的延伸，去做內部內稽、內控的把關者，他居然變成一個放水者、他居然變成一個護航者，這真的是一個很大的問題！主委，我希望看到你的魄力跟改革，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來質詢請李坤城李委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員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是國民黨的大佬徐立德的侄子"},{"start":622.355,"end":646.713,"text":"叫徐立業專門找這種人這種人專業能力在哪裡是關係取向還是專業取向你們要不要搞清楚要不要科與讀懂應該有的責任這是第一個你要去思考的問題第二個不適應的讀懂有沒有黑名單就像我們政府採購法當中有一些審查委員的名冊當中不好的就把它剔除掉有沒有可能"},{"start":648.649,"end":677.504,"text":"主委我們獨立董事是定在我們的政交法裡面的規定那我們會來就是這當然制度我們都會按照那個與時俱進來檢討啦那我會請我們政協局來檢討這個問題我跟你講喔獨董他基本上是監察人角色的轉換喔他權力是不是一般的董事喔薪酬委員會、審計委員會他幾乎都是當然的這個成員是現在是"},{"start":678.106,"end":692.941,"text":"就監察人的部分沒有好好監察以致於內機內控出問題他是在筷子一支前面的內部的把關者就是陪著整個負責人去吃喝玩樂、坐飛機、出國旅遊這還像讀懂嗎虧損了、掏空了11億他沒有事情"},{"start":703.045,"end":707.307,"text":"難道不能從類似像美國的部分對會計事務所一樣的究責嗎?現在我們要討論會計事務所要跟他究責,這個獨董難道不應該究責嗎?"},{"start":714.997,"end":732.632,"text":"就是獨立董事也是公司法董事的一部分那這個部分因為特別是獨立董事是郵局會主政但是他一般董事該負的責任他還是一樣要按照公司法跟一般的來負責他跟一般的董事的權利又更不一樣"},{"start":733.433,"end":736.674,"text":"主委,我希望看到你的魄力跟改革。謝謝。"},{"start":761.023,"end":763.233,"text":"這位質詢請李坤澄、李委員"}]}},{"id":"154457","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154457","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bde88f94aee0e2762127d0a78c1009ae5ed15f5ccb8d26769b649adc19fb3f7a7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:50:32 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10:03:42","影片長度":"00:13:10","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:50:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:03:42+08:00","duration":790,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":358,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（9時50分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["李部長遠：羅委員你好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。今天召委排這個文資保存法的專報，有幾件事情想跟大家一起來探討。我以文資災害來起個頭，我想網友總是會這麼認為，臺灣的歷史建物之前很常會發生離奇的火災，部長有稍微瞭解一下這個部分嗎？"],["李部長遠：我知道，早期一直有這個問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，國內的古蹟、歷史建築物發生火災的主要原因分為四項，用火不慎、人為縱火、施工不當以及電氣因素。廣義來說，就是自然跟人為的因素，人為的因素部分，我們就會推測，是不是當我們的老舊建物準備被評定為古蹟的時候，就會受到文資法的保護，周邊的建築物一併會受到影響，連帶出現疑似人為縱火的案件出來，也就是自燃事件？我們都知道，108年4月巴黎聖母院發生火災以後，起火的原因有兩說，一個是電器故障，一個是香菸引燃，當然，在這件事情發生以後，文化部也很重視，我們就推動了一個有形文化資產防災守護方案，目前還在辦理嗎？"],["李部長遠：有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：具體的成效可不可以跟大家分享一下？"],["李部長遠：我是不是請局長仔細報告一下？"],["陳局長濟民：好，這個有形文化資產防災守護方案，我們是跟相關部會，像消防署、警政署，我們就這樣的方案定期做消防的演練還有聯繫會報，都會召開，對於所有各種可能的狀況，包括我們現在已經協調各警局，在各個文資點設置巡邏箱，還有我們也加強所有人跟管理人怎麼樣做維護管理，就是在聯繫會報裡面……"],["羅委員廷瑋：就是守護這些文化資產啦！近幾年確實有相對地減少失火的頻率，我們有感受到，但是聖母院大火之後，很快的在7月，文資局就和國家地震工程研究中心、國家災害防救科技中心等相關單位建置了文化資產災害情資網，我看了這個網站的內容，似乎都沒有列進文化資產火災的案例，這又是為什麼？"],["陳局長濟民：我想我們可能後續可以把它補充進去，因為我們另外還有掌握這些數據，像……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有掌握嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那為什麼沒有列入？沒有想到？"],["陳局長濟民：我們可以考慮把它納進去。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我舉最近的一個例子，2023年屏東空訓中心大武營區的正氣樓就發生了人為縱火，木造的屋頂、木窗等，燒毀面積約100坪，但我在網站上從頭到尾都找不到相關的資料，然後我把縣市的數據從屏東縣拉回到不拘縣市，得到的也都是淹水、建物結構傾斜、裂縫等，仍然沒有看到火災的部分，是防災中心勾稽不到文化部的資訊，還是文化部根本從頭到尾都沒有將資訊列管，以至於無法提供相關資料給防災中心？"],["陳局長濟民：委員，剛才那個防災中心的網站，我們主要是以天然災害為主，像地震、颱風等等，我想人為的部分，我們可以考慮再另外把它納進去。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我個人認為人為的部分也應該要列入……"],["陳局長濟民：我們是另外再……"],["羅委員廷瑋：要讓大家能夠知道。"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以認同嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：可以，我想也應該是把它整個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當時在公共政策網路參與平臺上民眾提出了建議，希望能夠立法規定遭遇火災的文化資產及其用地，100年不得做修復原狀以外的用途，以杜絕有心人士藉由縱火進行炒地的事情發生。部長，您知道這件事情嗎？網路所發起的這個活動。"],["李部長遠：知道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：文化部回應，希望透過有形文化資產防災守護方案的推動，降低各項人為疏失的災害及因應未來日益劇烈的氣候變遷挑戰，守護國家無可替代的重要文化資產，用這樣子的一個方式來做一個回應。如果自然災害和國家地震工程研究中心、國家災害防救科技中心等單位要列管的話，文化部也應該要把火災的部分羅列進去。部長，您覺得呢？"],["李部長遠：應該是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：而不是說今天你提報了一個有形文化資產的守護方案，但只做了半套。部長能夠承諾本席會進行盤點，將相關的資料一併列入嗎？"],["李部長遠：是，沒問題，會儘快。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，接下來我想要再跟部長探討的是，接下來我們關心的是文化資產價值評估的問題，有三個層次，第一個層次是法律面，文資保護法第十五條，有關公有建築物的部分，我們在這個部分簡單來跟大家分享，就是公有建物、公有土地的建築物，在興建完50年後，如果有要處分，例如拆除，都應該要進行文化資產價值評估。但是去年7月文化部就遭到監察院糾正，全臺灣2萬棟50年以上的公有建築物只有353棟提送文化資產價值評估，這6年來拆掉的有兩成，都是沒有辦理文化資產價值評估，根本就是違法拆除，這個被監察院認定有重大疏失，也要求確實地檢討。部長，您覺得這個嚴不嚴重？你們是不是應該要做一個反省，甚至要趕快來亡羊補牢？"],["李部長遠：其實我知道這個法令，好像要主動去報，大家都沒有去報，因為50年以上的房子太多嘛。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["李部長遠：很多人都自動沒有報，自動不去報。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是50年以上的建築物確實算是滿多的，很重要！"],["李部長遠：真的很多。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。部長，監察院的糾正內容也提到，105年7月修正文資法，逾50年的公有建築物待普查數高達99%，所以我想文化資產，我們不是只是法律面訂定而已，實際的執行面的確看起來是有很大的一個差距，這個部分我們是不是應該檢討一下？部長，您覺得呢？"],["李部長遠：是，因為它那個執行面真的是很困難，因為50年以上的建築物在臺灣來講非常多，我覺得在鑑定上跟人力上相當不足，所以這個要檢討。"],["羅委員廷瑋：詢問文資法第十四條規定，主管機關應定期普查、程序審查、列冊追蹤，到底有沒有涵蓋到50年以上的公有建築物？卻兩次獲得不同的說法。111年12月16日回復法令上無規範，112年2月15日又回復包含在裡面，各縣市根本無法追蹤。部長，你可不可以給我一個確定的答案？你覺得呢？50年以上的公有建築物到底適不適用第十四條？要不要普查？定期檢查要多久一次？"],["陳局長濟民：第十四條跟第十五條其實兩個是不同性質的，那個解釋是不一樣的。我先補充一下，第十五條在監察院的糾正裡面，最主要現在是縣市政府各局處的橫向聯繫不夠。我們已經一個、一個通函各縣市，也請他們提出具體的勾稽，因為有的在文化局，有的在建設局，有的在……所以拆的時候他們之間沒有互相通報。依照文資法第十五條，這方面是一定要聯繫通報，是一定要做的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，我們希望要有具體的作為，我想文化部作為文化最高的主管機關，應該要想辦法去處理。"],["陳局長濟民：有，我們……"],["羅委員廷瑋：第十四條呢？剛剛我所問的，可不可以給我一個確定的答案？50年以上的公有建築物到底適不適用第十四條？"],["陳局長濟民：不適宜，這兩個是不同性質的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們現在的普查跟定期檢查，你們有訂定一個內部的規範嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：有，是說哪一個？"],["羅委員廷瑋：50年以上的建築物要普查、定期追蹤，你們有沒有去訂定，然後要求你們下面的各縣市主管機關去處理？"],["陳局長濟民：我們有訂一些行政指導的規範。"],["羅委員廷瑋：都有去跟他們做溝通？"],["陳局長濟民：對，是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是目前我們看到普查率還有高達99%。"],["陳局長濟民：因為像剛才部長講的，的確，地方縣市政府的人力還有橫向溝通，這方面的確實質上是有一些困難，因為數量很多。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望未來是不是有機會有一個招募人力的計畫，能夠來銜接這樣子的人力，讓我們這些50年以上的建築物趕緊來做普查，有沒有這個計畫可以來產生？"],["陳局長濟民：有，我們很多的補助案件裡面都包含了這一些相關的機制，包括有一些像考古遺址的巡查、古蹟的巡查，還有專案服務團隊，這一方面都是一些補充人力，還有專業技術的一種作法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：各縣市在文化部的督導下，有一個執行層面的問題，包括雲林縣沒有人力辦理統計，南投縣、嘉義縣表示，他們根本沒有相關的數據，也就是在拆除之前，他們根本不清楚自己拆的到底是不是50年以上的建築物，所以……"],["陳局長濟民：是，也就是橫向聯繫的問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這就是橫向聯繫的一個問題，我希望文化部能夠有所作為，能夠來協助處理。"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想執行面有這樣子的一個狀況，文化部應該要痛定思痛，去想辦法協助處理。"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然第三個，我們應該借鏡國外建築物遺產價值評估的一個系統，我希望文化部能夠做到，文資法的施行細則指出，處分前要通知主管機關進行文化價值評估，具體的做法就是邀請學者或審議會委員辦理勘查，做成一個結果紀錄，主管機關再來判定是否列冊追蹤、登錄審查或其他事宜之列管措施。","然而，目前對於「專家學者的定義、專業內容、職業倫理、職務執行細則」等，都沒有明確規範。譬如說，怎麼樣算是有價值？以目前的古蹟指定及廢止審查辦法為例，現在寫的只有比較廣泛的「具高度歷史、藝術或科學價值者」、「表現各時代營造技術流派特色者」、「具稀少性、不易再現者」這三條基準要符合其中之一。","舉例來說，彰化縣的「大新鳳梨商事會社」是典型的文資爭議案事件，部長，您知道這個事件嗎？當時文資委員做現場勘查的時候，認定這個「大新商事外觀形式簡潔、臨街立面無繁複裝飾，常見於彰化市區的主要道路，不具稀少性、特殊性」。但文資團體認為，大新鳳梨商事會社為彰化市僅存連棟式現代風格折衷式樣街屋，具有稀少性、珍貴性、藝術性的價值。同樣是稀少性，主管機關跟文資團體的解讀完全相反，因無法客觀而引發爭議。","這個部分我們是不是可以參考國外的建築價值評估系統？例如加拿大他們有一個建築史、歷史、環境、使用、相關真實性的價值等5項指標來作為分級評分，分為A、B、C，也就是所謂的75到100分、50到74分等分成4個組別，個別對應具有重大意義的建築物或者是應受保護的建築物來作為評分，以達到「客觀的主觀」方式來做一個評分。這個部分我們有沒有機會朝這樣子的方向來處理？"],["李部長遠：羅委員，你剛才講的這些東西，我想我們一定要痛定思痛地來檢討，因為剛才你講那幾棟建築物找來的專家委員，他們每個人都有不同的專業。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["李部長遠：所以他們評定方式是不一樣的，這一點我很謝謝你的建議，我們應該參考更科學的一些制度跟方法，讓那個評定比較有根據。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝部長正面的回應，我想就是我剛剛說的，借鏡國外建築物遺產價值評估系統，希望更有效地去做這樣子的評估，不管是文史團體或者是學者去做的一個評估，我們當然尊重，但是我們希望的是在這個過程當中，能夠更謹慎、小心地去做評估，不要讓我們有任何遺留的遺憾，因為文化資產守護不易，每一次的拆除都無法再挽回。我想這部分我們一起來努力，部長，剛剛你有具體的給我回復，我們也希望會後兩個月內、三個月內，能夠評估出價值的一個評估系統，讓我們能夠知道，這可以做得到嗎？"],["李部長遠：應該是可以啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，三個月，謝謝你！"],["李部長遠：謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員，部長請回座。","接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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沒問題接下來我想要跟部長再探討的是接下來我們有關心這個文化資產價值的一個評估問題有三個層次第一個層次是法律面我想文資保護法第15條公有建築物我們在這個部分簡單來跟大家分享就是公有建物公有土地的建築物在新建完50年後如果有要處分例如拆除都應該要進行文化資產的評估價值"},{"start":309.008,"end":334.456,"text":"但是去年呢我們7月文化部就遭到監察院的糾正全台灣2萬棟50年工有建築物只有353棟提送文化價值的一個評估這6年來拆掉的有兩成都是沒有辦理文化價值評估根本就是違法拆除被監察院認定這個有重大疏失那有要求確實的檢討部長您覺得這個嚴不嚴重我們是不是應該要做一個"},{"start":338.82,"end":339.781,"text":"50年公有建築物貸補償高達99%"},{"start":367.137,"end":390.725,"text":"所以我想這個文化資產我們不是只是法律面訂定而已我們實際的執行面的確看起來是有很大的一個差距我想這個部分我們是不是應該檢討一下部長您覺得呢是 因為它那個執行面真的是很困難因為要量那麼大的一個50年的建築在台灣來講非常多我覺得在鑑定上跟人力上可能相當不足所以這個要檢討"},{"start":391.545,"end":416.782,"text":"我想文資法第14條主管機關應定期普查程序的檢查列冊追蹤到底有沒有涵蓋到50年工有建築物卻兩次獲得不同的一個說法111年12月16日回復說法令上無規範112年2月15日又回復說包含在裡面各縣市根本無法追蹤那部長你可不可以給我一個確定的答案你覺得呢50年工有建築物到底是不是用第14條"},{"start":419.782,"end":434.404,"text":"要不要補查?定期檢查要多久一次?那個這14條跟15條其實兩個是不同性質的那個內容解釋是不一樣的那15條我先補充一下第15條完檢察院的糾正裡面最主要現在是縣市政府的各局處的橫向聯繫不夠"},{"start":435.405,"end":462.703,"text":"我們已經是一個一個通韓各縣市也提出了請他們提出具體的這種勾擊啊因為有的在文化局有的在建設局有的在所以猜的時候他們之間沒有互相通報依照文物資法第15條是一定要這方面應該要聯繫通報一定要做的我們希望要具體的作為我想作為主管機關我們最高的文化部應該要去想辦法去處理那第14條呢剛剛我所問到的可不可以給我一個確定的答案50年公有建築物到底是不是用第14條"},{"start":463.925,"end":465.648,"text":"我們現在普查跟定期檢查你們有訂定一個內部的規範嗎?"},{"start":478.438,"end":501.005,"text":"50年建築物要普查 定期追蹤我們有沒有去訂定然後要求我們的下面的各縣市主管機關去處理我們有跟一些行政指導的規範都有去跟他們做溝通但是目前我們看到普查率還有高達99%因為剛才部長講的確是人力地方縣市政府的人力還有橫向溝通的確這方面是實質上是有一些困難"},{"start":501.365,"end":527.395,"text":"那我希望是不是未來有機會有這樣子的一個招募能力的一個計畫能夠來銜接這樣子的人力讓我們這50年的建築物趕緊來做一個普查有沒有這個計畫可以來產生我們的補助我們很多的補助案件裡面都包含了這一些相關的機制包括有一些像考古遺址的巡查、古蹟的巡查還有專案服務團隊這一方面都是一些補充人力的還有專業技術的一種做法"},{"start":527.975,"end":547.094,"text":"我們希望在這個各縣市能夠在文化部的一個督導下有一個執行層面的一個問題我想包括雲林縣人力辦理的一個統計南投縣嘉義縣表示他們根本沒有相關的數據也就是在拆除之前他們根本不清楚自己拆的到底是不是50年的一個建築物所以這就是橫向聯繫的一個問題我希望文化部能夠有所作為能夠來協助處理"},{"start":551.578,"end":552.658,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":577.884,"end":603.545,"text":"那主管機關再來判定是否列冊追蹤登錄審查或其他的事故來列冊來做一個列管實施然而目前對於專家學者的定義專案一個內容以及他的職業倫理職務的執行細則都沒有明確的做一個規範比如說怎麼樣算是有價值因目前的股期指定及廢止的審查辦法為例現在寫的只要廣泛"},{"start":605.371,"end":629.467,"text":"範圍具高度的歷史藝術及科學價值表現各時代營造技術的流派特色者具稀少性不易再現者這三條基準且符合其一之一舉例來說彰化縣的大興鳳梨商市會社是典型的文資爭議事件部長您知道這個事件嗎"},{"start":632.588,"end":656.35,"text":"我想當時文資委員做現場的勘察的時候認定這個大興商市外觀形式簡潔臨街立面無繁複的一個裝飾常見於彰化市區的主要道路不具稀少性特殊性但文資團體認為大興鳳梨商市會社為彰化市"},{"start":656.77,"end":659.391,"text":"建築價值評估系統例如加拿大建築他們有一個"},{"start":684.383,"end":713.183,"text":"建築史歷史環境使用相關的價值真實性的價值五項指標來作為分級評分分為ABC也就是所謂的75到100分50到74分相關的一個分組來做一個四個組別各別應對具有重大的意義建築物或者是應受保存的建築物來作為評分以達到客觀主觀的一個"},{"start":713.803,"end":713.823,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":743.963,"end":764.005,"text":"好,謝謝部長正面的回應,我想就是我剛剛說的喔,接近國外的建築物遺產的一個價值評估系統,希望更有效的去做這樣子的一個評估,我們當然尊重不管是文史團體,或者是學者去做的一個評估,但是我們希望的是在這個過程當中,能夠更謹慎小心的去做評估,不要讓我們任何遺留"},{"start":764.485,"end":764.725,"text":"羅廷瑋委員"}]}},{"id":"154454","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154454","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd3977f73fc32b20a8266d74c0b9571b08d15f5ccb8d26769bbe565867c9474fd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:48:08 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«民法第二百零五條條文修正草案案案》案。"},{"start":201.856,"end":220.922,"text":"這個我對這個今天的一個提案我們可以看得出來就是這個社會對於這個約定利息太高了這個大家都討厭尤其外面這一些這個怎麼講現在一些融資公司巧力名目然後收取高額這樣的一個費用造成一些民眾尤其是那些辛苦人"},{"start":222.981,"end":223.021,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等"},{"start":238.977,"end":265.389,"text":"那都在18個時段你看那個銀行法第47條之一第二項你規定循環利率不得超過年利率15%2020年民法205條修訂超過約定的利率無效因為現在呢這簡單來講啦過去我們把銀行的最高利率調低了有超過了那利率是無效還可以主張債權人要還還那個超過部分的一個利息但是修法以後我們確實看到"},{"start":266.109,"end":293.829,"text":"很多人還是巧立名目你這個是覺得非常討厭手續會保管會違約金不同的一個規則來逃避這16%的一個限制所以今天才會有委員來提出這樣的一個提案這個我們都懂但問題就是說那其實如果去看借貸的年率不得超過16%不要忘記我們一個叫做當鋪我以前在做台北市議員的時候當鋪業者台北市公立的那個年終獎金都特別高"},{"start":295.453,"end":296.654,"text":"為什麼聯中獎金特別高?"},{"start":296.654,"end":303.558,"text":"因為賺錢公立當鋪當然也都那麼賺錢 不要去講說民間啦 真的是很賺錢所以在當鋪業法裡面第11條特別規定說當鋪業的合法利率高達幾%呢?"},{"start":303.558,"end":306.42,"text":"30%你給他看看 市長 你也是法律人一個最高16% 一個最高30%人性一定會挑比較低的啊可是呢 台灣的當鋪現在幾間你知道嗎?"},{"start":324.156,"end":327.254,"text":"一兩千金合法的"},{"start":328.379,"end":338.661,"text":"不法的不講喔!合法的喔!所以這是很可怕!所以我們去...會去這樣找的人喔!會去當鋪找的人也有可能啦!我不要去問啦!我說你們以前的地方會比較多!他說有某大同電鍋來電檔的啦!有某米粥來的啦!以前國家時代什麼的都有!那個叫解決藍美之急嘛!所以不得已才去選擇當鋪可是我們去看其他國家"},{"start":355.124,"end":366.972,"text":"我昨天第一個 這兩天我第一個想到的是說我們很少炒德國 你去看德國 你去看日本在德國他們民法法典裡面246條的規定的法定利率4%"},{"start":369.349,"end":389.379,"text":"如果遲延幾戶在臥部旅行情況之下德國的民法288條基礎利率再加個5%這最高是9%欸過來啦我們當年我們有很多民法我們有很多也抄德國可是我們很多又跑去抄日本你去看德國那個整個大典當業者有分私營跟公營平均利率嘛那12%啊我們這30%"},{"start":392.18,"end":419.868,"text":"我整理整個律例我就發現很奇怪臨近的我們去看日本他們以金錢為標的消費借貸這個部分年律例上限按照借貸金額去定上限本金不滿10萬元年律例跟我們以前阿伯修一樣20% 典當業者阿他們又比我們便宜是3到8% 阿我們是30% 所以我們這個法律喔我這個我都不知所措你知道嗎所以我的一總結來講就是說德國的年律率最高是9%"},{"start":421.969,"end":442.106,"text":"點檔率率是12%日本連綠率最高又是20%點檔率率又是剩下降低到8%所以我們的連綠率上限是16%點檔是30%這個落差跟其他的國家來做比較差距真的不可謂不大也就是其實是非常大市長你做的書你做的立法院"},{"start":444.568,"end":458.753,"text":"內政委員會很清楚,當鋪業法是屬於警政署所主管,但是他這個約定的利率上限定在民法當中,我就要來請教次長,你對這個利率上限的差距你有什麼看法?"},{"start":459.377,"end":464.638,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會及法制委員會第34次全體委員會第34次全體委員會第34次全體委員會第34次全體委員會第34次全體委員會第34次全體委員會第34次全體委員會第34次全體委員會第34次全體委員會"},{"start":479.702,"end":507.159,"text":"當然那這個也是因為不同的融資的市場他所受的管制是不同為什麼這麼多人為什麼不去借這個一般銀行的這個3% 2%要去借這個高利貸我們俗稱的這些或是當鋪這些這麼高的利率呢因為他們所受的這個擔保或是管制的條件不一樣所以在不同的這個借貸市場裡面行政管制可能會有不同的考量"},{"start":508.83,"end":528.043,"text":"當然我們現在今天我們所要修的這個民法我們修正之後它仍然會是一個普通法的位階所以如果對於這個典當業的這個30%覺得有這個覺得不合時宜的地方就像我們過去從這個最高利率上限民法20%把它調降到16%一樣"},{"start":529.224,"end":530.445,"text":"一般民眾常常事後有的還不起錢,有的認為說他被訛詐了。"},{"start":549.163,"end":573.693,"text":"他動不動他會想去提告重力罪其實哪有那麼簡單我們這個整個重力罪344條你去把它看他是趁人急迫輕率或沒有經驗或難以求助之處境待與金錢其他物品取得跟原本顯不相當是啊 跟原本都顯不相當可是前面又是講說急迫輕率無經驗很多人去就實在是要件會不會符合其實都很難講"},{"start":575.154,"end":603.719,"text":"你覺得我們以前大意在討論《民法》總則70條開始跟你說主張消費借貸違反公序良俗無效我們以前看很多判決但是法院就直接說你這個違反公序良俗你這個無效沒有請求權74條主張對方是暴力行為我要把你給撤銷問題就是說這個以現在來看今天這樣的一個修法本席其實也可以體會到說來提案委員對這種消費借貸及巧立名目很多人的一個不滿但也不要忘記喔"},{"start":605.282,"end":605.602,"text":"司法及法制委員"},{"start":631.598,"end":660.223,"text":"本院委員所提案的這個肯認他們提案的這樣的一個初衷但是會產生的一個衝擊其實你們也必須要去應該更謹慎或者說更廣範圍的請業界來提供對他們的衝擊會是什麼否則說實在話這種東西明確老百姓是喜歡的喔老百姓一聽到說吼那麼多亂七八糟的動不動就弄那麼多名目啊什麼手續費用相關的一些費用可是這個這個"},{"start":661.563,"end":687.655,"text":"這個很難去做一個界定我不曉得簡單最後次長聽聽你們法務部的意見是謝謝委員的這個關心但我們的心情都跟提案委員還有各位委員是相同的我們也對於巧立明牧這樣的亂象事實上本來他就疑似就是有可能會落入民法206條所不許這樣的行為裡面我們也認為要有一個更清楚的規定來做一個制約"},{"start":688.755,"end":712.605,"text":"那當然誠如我們在今天報告所提出來的也確實如剛剛委員所說的這個合法的行為跟這個疑似是巧立明末的行為事實上是很難在文字上面去做區別所以呢影響範圍又這麼大因為我們是民商合一的立法體力跟委員剛剛所說的這個德國跟日本都不一樣所以我們也確實有必要"},{"start":713.885,"end":714.566,"text":"主管機關的意見﹖"},{"start":737.259,"end":737.479,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":755.498,"end":755.518,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":776.195,"end":776.215,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"154452","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154452","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd1840933d050bb0a5cb3f5941fe168625d15f5ccb8d26769b3046dc99d7347fec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:44:44 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09:58:13","影片長度":"00:13:29","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:44:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T09:58:13+08:00","duration":809,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":247,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時44分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請金管會的彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["賴委員士葆：主委你早。"],["彭主任委員金隆：早安。"],["賴委員士葆：有關於今天的主題，我們召委提案的立意其實是非常良好的，就是現在希望有更多資金來投資臺灣，特別是你可以看到從NVIDIA黃仁勳之後都來投資臺灣，一直投資臺灣，臺灣的投資越多，臺灣的生意就越蓬勃發展，人民也就越有機會，畢竟現在來講，我們看到主計總處也公布了，我們的貧富差距非常嚴重，勞工階級、受薪階級有三分之二領不到平均薪資，這樣講起來很難過欸，領不到三萬的有150萬人，這都是財政部公布的數字啊！所以召委的立意很好，可是你現在一直強調，如果按照這樣子的話，有9兆要回來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，如果按照現在的數字來統計的話。"],["賴委員士葆：9兆是什麼概念？9兆是什麼概念？我請問你，知不知道我們的GDP一年幾兆？"],["彭主任委員金隆：GDP……我要算一下。"],["賴委員士葆：央行副總裁來講一下我們GDP一年有多少。"],["主席：請副總裁。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：新臺幣八兆多。"],["賴委員士葆：GDP一年有8兆？不是十幾兆嗎？一、二十兆嗎？不是啊？哪一位可以給我精確的數字？我記得是十幾兆喔！"],["嚴副總裁宗大：對不起，18兆。"],["賴委員士葆：18兆啦！差那麼多，「一丈差八尺」，18兆啦！等於有半個我們的GDP要回來。現在來講，主委你剛剛說現在在現有的umbrella 45%底下就還有3兆沒有用完，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：以我們現在保險法的規定，就是他以資金的10%，現在只用到……如果說最寬的估計大概就1%，如果單單公建這一塊只有0.42%。"],["賴委員士葆：主要就是臺灣沒有投資標的嘛！就是沒有投資標的，我們公建的投資報酬率也不行，然後推出的也少，很容易被有心人士、特定人士圍標或幹什麼的，而且你會不會擔心股市過熱？這些錢一回來，股市不是又暴漲了？會不會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然如果從供需籌碼來看，確實有這樣的想像。"],["賴委員士葆：by the way，請問現在股市有沒有過熱？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛也跟委員報告過，其實我們關注的議題是，看起來現在臺灣是有基本面的支撐，還有一些……我們看看整個的交易量或什麼，我們都密切的關注，我覺得……"],["賴委員士葆：我們的平均EPS多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：股市的報酬率現在大概是2.66左右。"],["賴委員士葆：多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我的數字應該是2.66。"],["賴委員士葆：EPS怎麼是2.66？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是、不是EPS，就是股市的本益……"],["賴委員士葆：本益比啦！PE Ratio。"],["彭主任委員金隆：本益比是22左右。"],["賴委員士葆：美國多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：美國的部分，這個可能要問……"],["賴委員士葆：局長，來當一下槍手。"],["主席：請張局長。"],["賴委員士葆：美國多少？"],["張局長振山：這個還要再查一下，因為那個數字隨時都在變動。"],["賴委員士葆：香港呢？"],["張局長振山：二十……"],["賴委員士葆：EPS二十幾，到底臺灣是偏高還是偏低？一般來講是不會偏高喔！多少？"],["張局長振山：剛剛那個數字是殖利率，殖利率是二點多啦！殖利率是2.5。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道殖利率啦，我問你的問題不是殖利率，我是問它的本益比啦！幾倍？"],["張局長振山：22.84。"],["賴委員士葆：美國幾倍？"],["張局長振山：美國24.84。"],["賴委員士葆：香港呢？"],["張局長振山：香港11.24。"],["賴委員士葆：比起香港我們是偏高的。"],["張局長振山：大概美國跟香港差一半。"],["賴委員士葆：房地產會不會也鼓勵……到時候房地產會不會也被衝破1成？就是錢跑來股市，不然就是房地產，一定是這兩個投資標的啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：最近房價議題是大家很關注的議題，當然就是剛才講的，從供需籌碼來看，確實如果有這麼多資金回來，我剛才有報告過，根據保險法的規定，其實保險業本來就可以根據保險法一百四十六條之二去投資不動產相關的……"],["賴委員士葆：其實按照保險法現在45%的規定，他也不見得要投滿45%啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員士葆：最多45%，他也可以多投國內，變成說雖然有45%在那裡，但是他可以變成投國外25%就好了，剩下20%投國內也是可以啊！對不對？並沒有限制他投資國內。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，現在就是他有個額度可以自己投，但是我們現在超過40%的話，他要一個、一個來申請。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你是反對修法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們當然覺得現況如果做這樣的修法，對市場衝擊過大，我們剛剛也報告過，我們持保留的態度，也希望能夠維持現在的條文。"],["賴委員士葆：好，這個你是講給召委聽啦！我們再看下一張，環境部說8月15日要進行碳交易運作，證交所有一個碳交所成立了嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，在高雄。"],["賴委員士葆：過去大家就批評只有對國外的碳權做交易，等於有一點好像是賭場一樣，根本就沒有真正的國內交易，請問現在什麼時候可以做到國內對國內交易、國內對國外交易，什麼時候？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我記得碳交易所在去年7月成立以後，去年年底就曾經做過交易，就是國內的金控公司、金融機構也開始進行購買，不過這個碳交易的……"],["賴委員士葆：購買是購買國外的喔！購買國外的，沒有購買國內的喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有購買國內的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們可能……"],["賴委員士葆：國內對國內沒有開放喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們可能預計下半年，這個部分因為前一陣子也有跟環境部……因為這跟環境部整個政策推動有關。"],["賴委員士葆：今年底可以期待嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：今天？"],["賴委員士葆：今年底。"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛局長跟我講是下半年。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候？你告訴我下半年，是9月？12月？10月？11月？"],["彭主任委員金隆：雖然碳交易所是在證交所下面，但是實際上這牽涉到我們……"],["賴委員士葆：我知道啦，你要推給環境部啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我們是預期明年，但詳細的時間我們沒辦法在這邊……還要跟環境部做協調。"],["賴委員士葆：好，這個你注意啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["賴委員士葆：我們希望碳交所成立了就要玩真的，有交易所在那裡就要玩真的啦！自己國內需要減碳的，他可以去買、幹什麼的，現在不能買，你請回。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：我們請財政部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["賴委員士葆：莊部長，賦稅署宋署長也一起。"],["主席：請宋署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。現在有一個題目，就是我們看到現在最熱的題目之一叫做拆樑行動，他們有一個什麼拆樑行動……協會，他是用協會的名義喔！他已經達標了，募到了七百多萬。我請問部長，按照規定，按照你們賦稅署所得稅法第十一條的規定，這些協會或者基金會，如果人家捐款給你就是捐款，for捐款only，沒有問題，就看它一年營業額有沒有花掉70%，沒有70%要課稅，但是它有賣東西，比如說這個基金會有賣書，或者協會有賣什麼東西，現在就有了，他們就賣T-shirt，它有賣T-shirt，請問你，它有沒有跟你交營業稅？有沒有跟你交營業稅？有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：這部分我是不是可以請署長來回答？"],["賴委員士葆：可以。"],["宋署長秀玲：謝謝委員的垂詢。這個我們應該分兩塊，第一個，到底這個集資平臺……現在看起來是一個集資的方式，接下來是誰提出這樣的集資平臺，他集資的資金要用在什麼地方，如果他現在是一個機關團體，就像剛才委員講的……"],["賴委員士葆：它是一個協會，已經有了。"],["宋署長秀玲：我們要查一下它是不是屬於符合我們所謂教育、文化、公益、慈善機關或團體，它有一定的條件，如果是符合的話，根據我們所得稅法第四條第一項第十三款的規定，他符合……"],["賴委員士葆：所得稅法第十一條規定很清楚……"],["宋署長秀玲：那是機關團體。"],["賴委員士葆：他是教育、文化、公益、慈善機關或團體，有銷售貨物或勞務，要報營業稅，甚至要報所得稅！"],["宋署長秀玲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：對吧？我講的對吧？"],["宋署長秀玲：委員，剛剛您提到的是我們所得稅法第四條第一項第十三款規定，這是針對所得稅的部分，規定如果是文化、公益、慈善機關或團體，符合行政院標準，那就要申報，要看是應稅或免稅。","另外，營業稅部分是每兩個月為一期，是不是有報繳營業稅的問題，那要看他在……"],["賴委員士葆：這個單位有沒有跟你報營業稅？我就問你這個答案，有沒有？這個單位有沒有跟你報營業稅？"],["宋署長秀玲：這個可能我要請國稅局確認才會知道，因為手上沒有資料。"],["賴委員士葆：它要報喔、它要報喔！它已經截止了，規定次月15號，5月就截止了。"],["宋署長秀玲：但是……"],["賴委員士葆：規定次月15號，代表今年6月要向你報營業稅了。"],["宋署長秀玲：我們營業稅是每兩個月報繳，是7月。"],["賴委員士葆：7月。"],["宋署長秀玲：是單數月，所以要7月15號看它有沒有申報。"],["賴委員士葆：7月15號要報？"],["宋署長秀玲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：你要提醒他要報喔，這個問題很大！"],["宋署長秀玲：是，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：財政部長，我問你，新青安專案不是又開始修理了、又開始煞車了，你已經做一個報告，新青安專案其實你已經報告都有了，可是你沒公布！平均1,000件中幾件有類似人頭或者是……也不要說詐騙，類似人頭的不正當作法在1,000件裡面有幾件？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們先把高風險的案子篩出來，然後由行庫去逐案瞭解。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，你的結果要出來，結果現在沒有呀！"],["莊部長翠雲：逐案要一些時間，他後續查還要一些時間嘛，我們會……"],["賴委員士葆：可是我知道的訊息是你們已經有了，你們答案有了，沒有嗎？還沒有答案嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，都在持續追查當中，我們後續……"],["賴委員士葆：那現在查的情況、違規的情況……"],["莊部長翠雲：現在違規的情況行庫還沒有回報回來。"],["賴委員士葆：初步呢？初步你們難道沒有……"],["莊部長翠雲：他們查一段時間之後，我們會再請他們回報。"],["賴委員士葆：我問你最後一點，不要急嘛，我的時間很短，健保署、衛福部長要挹注癌症新藥基金100億，他現在動到酒這個念頭來了，他要課酒捐，這你知道嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我看到新聞是寫到……有這麼一個新聞，是。"],["賴委員士葆：你們開始動作沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：捐不會在我們這邊課，我們是稅，捐是衛福部的執掌。"],["賴委員士葆：所以捐是衛福部的事情？"],["莊部長翠雲：對！"],["賴委員士葆：它針對酒要課捐，所以酒變貴，是這個意思嗎？好啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位質詢請郭國文郭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大\n參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員\n會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢；二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.99284375,"end":1.9209687500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.32596875,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.68846875,"end":5.177843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.30784375,"end":11.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.20221875,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.87721875,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.94846875,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.66971875,"end":18.137843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.50909375,"end":19.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.85909375,"end":20.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.090968750000002,"end":22.187843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.74471875,"end":23.419718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還有三兆沒有用完現在以我們現在保險法的規定就是它以資金的10%現在只用到如果說最寬的估計大概就1%那如果單單公建這一塊只有0.42%這主要是台灣沒有投資標的嘛"},{"start":160.41,"end":173.781,"text":"這是沒有投資標的公建的投資報告也不行然後推出的也少很容易被有心人士特定人士圍標啦幹什麼的而且你會不會擔心股市過熱啊這錢一回來股市不是又暴漲了會不會"},{"start":179.035,"end":196.585,"text":"當然如果從供需籌碼來看確實有這樣的想像請問你拜託問一下現在股市有沒有過熱現在我剛剛也跟委員報告過其實我們關注的議題是看起來現在台灣是有基本面的支撐還有一些我們看看整個的交易量或什麼我們再多密切關注我覺得"},{"start":197.165,"end":221.738,"text":"我們平均EPS多少我們平均股市的報酬率現在大概是2.66左右多少我們的應該是2.66我的數字EPS什麼2.66不是不是EPS就是股市的那個本益比本益比是22左右美國多少美國的部分這個我們這個可能要來局長來來當一下搶手張局長"},{"start":225.936,"end":236.999,"text":"美國多少?香港勒?就是你二十幾的那個EPS到底台灣是偏高還是偏低?一般來講是偏...不會偏高喔多少?剛剛那個數字是殖利率啦殖利率是2點多啦2.5殖利率是2.5"},{"start":255.888,"end":282.022,"text":"我知道殖利率啦我問你問題那個不是殖利率啦我問他那個本利比啦幾倍啦幾倍22倍左右22.84美國幾倍美國24.84香港勒11.24比起香港我是偏高的喔大概美國跟香港差一半"},{"start":284.505,"end":288.694,"text":"房地產會不會也鼓勵對到時候房地產一倍衝破一層?會不會?"},{"start":291.786,"end":293.587,"text":"邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。"},{"start":321.485,"end":327.948,"text":"所以你是反對修法?我們當然覺得說現況如果做這樣的修法對市場衝擊過大我們剛剛也報告過我們持保留也希望能夠維持現在的條文"},{"start":348.42,"end":353.867,"text":"8月15日環境部說要進行碳礁域運作。證交所有一個碳礁域"},{"start":365.171,"end":365.611,"text":"國內交易、國內對國外交易什麼時候?"},{"start":385.387,"end":395.991,"text":"我記得碳交易所在去年7月成立以後,去年年底就曾經做過那個交易對,就是國內的金控公司和金融機構也開始進行這個購買,對,不過這個碳交易國內對國內沒有,沒有開放喔"},{"start":407.694,"end":427.972,"text":"我們可能預計下半年,這部分因為前一陣子也有跟那個環境部因為這跟環境部的整個政策推動有關今年底可以期待嗎?今天?今年底今年我們是,剛剛局長,對對局長剛剛講是下半年這什麼時候嘛,你剛剛說下半年9月、12月、10月、11月"},{"start":432,"end":451.661,"text":"對,這個齁,這個其實,這個雖然說那個碳交易所是由這個比如證交所下面,但是實際上這牽涉到我們知道啦,你推給環境部啦沒有,我們是預期就是明年,但詳細的時間我們這邊沒辦法,在這邊還要跟環境部做協調,對"},{"start":453.604,"end":453.644,"text":"主席"},{"start":479.161,"end":504.726,"text":"委員好兩位長官好現在有一個題目我們看到現在最熱的題目之一猜量行動他們有一個什麼什麼猜量行動血灰血灰的名義他已經達標募到700多萬"},{"start":508.089,"end":517.593,"text":"七百多萬我請問部長按照規定按照你們輔助署所得稅法第11條的規定"},{"start":520.582,"end":536.812,"text":"這些的協會或者基金會他如果是人家捐款給你就捐款for捐款only沒有問題這個就看他一年月額這個有沒有花掉70%沒有70%要課稅但是他有賣比如說這基金會有賣書或者協會有賣什麼東西那現在就有了他們就賣T恤"},{"start":546.918,"end":557.133,"text":"有賣T恤?請問你,他有沒有跟你交營業稅?有沒有跟你交營業稅?有沒有?不然我是不是可以請署長來?好,署長可以。"},{"start":559.259,"end":579.072,"text":"謝謝委員的吹詢那這個我們應該分兩塊就第一個到底這個集資平台現在看起來是一個集資的方式那接下來是誰提出這樣的集資平台它集資的資金要用在什麼地方那如果它現在是一個機關團體就像剛剛委員"},{"start":581.373,"end":583.375,"text":"所得稅有第11條規定很清楚喔它是教育、文化、公益、慈善、機關或團體有銷售貨物或老物要報生營業稅"},{"start":609.537,"end":628.569,"text":"要報營業稅啊 甚至要報所得稅啊是對吧 我講對吧委員剛剛您提到的是我們所得稅法第4條第一項第13款規定它是針對所得稅的部分它是說如果你是符合我們教育文化公益資產機關團體符合行政院標準那它就要申報"},{"start":629.209,"end":634.513,"text":"這個單位有沒有跟你報營業稅我就問你這個單位這個單位有沒有跟你報營業稅他要報喔 他要報喔 他已經截止了"},{"start":652.205,"end":668.331,"text":"四月十五日他五月就截止了四月十五日的代表你今年這個六月要向你報營業稅我們營業稅是每兩個月報就好是七月是單數月所以要七月十五號看他有沒有數七月十五號要報對"},{"start":669.491,"end":683.238,"text":"您要提醒他要報喔!好細喔!這在我身上是問題很大!好,那個,陳副長,我問你喔!你那個新青恩專案,你不是開始修理了嗎?這個,有開始剎車了齁?你也做一個報告!"},{"start":686.789,"end":707.378,"text":"你已經做一個報告先遷案專案其實你已經報告都有了可是你沒公佈你那個平均一千件有幾件有類似人頭或者是這個這個不要說詐騙啦齁類似人頭的不正當說法做法有幾件一千件裡面"},{"start":708.86,"end":717.196,"text":"呃,這個部分吼,我們針對先對高風險的案子篩出來,然後有行庫他會去逐案的去了解,逐案去了解,對。"},{"start":720.369,"end":734.78,"text":"結果要出來啊,結果現在沒有啊可是我知道是訊息,你們已經有了,你們答案有了沒有嗎?還沒有答案嗎?不是啊,都在持續的追查當中啊,對現在違規的情況我們還沒有,那個行庫還沒有回報回來初步,你們難道沒有感覺?"},{"start":747.076,"end":771.407,"text":"我們會在稍後再會跟他們查一個時間一段時間我們會跟他們再請他們回報是好最後一點最後一點我問你這個這個不要急嘛我這時間很短這個健保署這衛福部長啊要預祝癌症新基金新藥基金100億他現在動到9這個念頭來了他要課9捐這你知不知道"},{"start":777.401,"end":798.169,"text":"那新聞是寫到有這麼一個新聞是我們那捐他不會在我們這邊課啊我們是稅啊捐是衛福部的所以捐是衛福部的事情喝了酒了就要課捐所以酒並貴是這個意思喝了喝謝謝好現在質詢郭國文郭昭偉"}]}},{"id":"154450","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154450","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd141d3f813821f8ac27d0a78c1009ae5edc75a2b8c9f1b706fa5ec6075ae9718d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:36:41 - 09:50:24","影片長度":"00:13:43","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:36:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T09:50:24+08:00","duration":823,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":266,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時36分）謝謝召委，我們一樣有請李遠部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：萬委員，你好！"],["萬委員美玲：好，我們一樣回到上週六的金曲獎，我早上也聽了一下您對於這次金曲獎的一些回應，但是我覺得還是要提一下，首先先請教部長，整個金曲獎都落幕了，當然不管它引發沸沸揚揚的討論，你認為這次的金曲獎辦得成功嗎？你給這次的金曲獎打幾分。"],["李部長遠：必須跟你承認我是第一次參加金曲獎，打幾分啊？"],["萬委員美玲：所以這一次金曲獎在你的心目中成功嗎？打了幾分？"],["李部長遠：我給它80分，但是因為發生這些事情，我給它扣5分，就是75分。"],["萬委員美玲：75分？"],["李部長遠：嗯。"],["萬委員美玲：好，這一次金曲獎相關的出包，剛才您回答是說有硬體、有設備、有小編的問題喔！那麼我整個看起來，這些出的包其實都是非常低級的錯誤啊！都是不應該出的包，雖然看起來是一個小地方，但是影響甚鉅，所以才會造成您剛剛所說的，在今天典禮的現場，您看到所有多元文化的表演，你就會非常的感動，但沒想到落幕以後卻是引發這麼多的沸沸揚揚，就是這些小地方他們沒有注意的時候，帶來的就是一個巨大影響跟嚴重的結果。您知道這是哪一個單位承辦的嗎？"],["李部長遠：臺灣電視公司。"],["萬委員美玲：台視，好，這是它第幾次承辦？"],["李部長遠：第幾次啊？我問一下。"],["徐次長宜君：我們經過公開招標之後，這幾年都是台視承辦的。"],["萬委員美玲：第幾次承辦？"],["徐次長宜君：第幾次喔？應該是從第25屆到現在都是台視承辦的。"],["萬委員美玲：所以第幾次承辦？好，部長。"],["徐次長宜君：應該是第11年。"],["萬委員美玲：第11年，連續11年都由它來承辦？"],["徐次長宜君：應該是說每一年或每……因為從第25屆開始，有時候是每年招標，有時候是每兩年招標，都是經過公開招標然後來承接的。"],["萬委員美玲：所以我只問一下，台視連續幾年來承辦？它總共辦過幾次了？"],["徐次長宜君：其實它是在第21屆到第23屆……"],["萬委員美玲：你告訴我它總共辦過幾次？"],["徐次長宜君：幾次嗎？"],["萬委員美玲：對，台視？"],["徐次長宜君：14次。"],["萬委員美玲：14次，所以台視辦金曲獎的經驗有高達14次。部長，這個問題就嚴重了！"],["李部長遠：對。"],["萬委員美玲：其實它出包不是今年才出包，因為您是今年才接了部長這個位置，你有去現場看，它往年就出過很多次包了，去年不知道您記不記得？就在第34屆的金曲獎，因為頒獎卡片排版不佳，導致主持人唸錯，有沒有？還造成大家很多的尷尬，甚至造成大家心理上的不舒服，還有一些面子、裡子的問題，其實是很嚴重的錯誤。如果說台視從過去到現在，第一個，它經驗豐富還屢屢出錯，屢屢出錯又屢屢得標，這是為什麼？第二個，去年已經出錯，今年還是繼續再犯，那請問一下，它是用什麼樣的方式，你們去委給它來承辦這個活動？我想請教部長。"],["李部長遠：OK，其實你剛才問的問題，我應該分兩個面向，一個就是政府採購法我們的修正，然後有出了差錯，我們把它計點數；但是第二個問題我必須講，臺灣電視早期只有3家的時候，他們能力非常好，後來變成100家之後……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，剛剛柯志恩委員跟你聊到二、三十年前的事情，但我現在跟你講的是今年的事，好嗎？所以不要跟我講那個台視什麼幾十年前這樣，現在這幾年都是由它來承接，為什麼它一再出包還可以一再承接？我想就這樣吧！給這個……這位是？"],["李部長遠：徐次長。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我們請他來回答好了……"],["李部長遠：OK。"],["萬委員美玲：看起來部長比較不瞭解。"],["徐次長宜君：跟委員報告，我們都是用公開招標的方式來辦理。"],["萬委員美玲：用什麼樣的標？最低標、最有利標，哪一種標？"],["徐次長宜君：我們是準用最有利標。"],["萬委員美玲：好，最有利標是評選嘛！"],["徐次長宜君：對。"],["萬委員美玲：何以十幾年來，它有經驗然後還出錯，出錯以後又再得標，得標以後再出錯，出錯又再得標，可以告訴我為什麼嗎？"],["徐次長宜君：其實這幾年都只有台視一家公司來投標，因為我們這個案子……我跟委員簡單報告，因為整個金曲獎不是只有頒獎典禮，整個案子裡頭是從25號開始有金曲國際音樂節……"],["萬委員美玲：這個我理解……"],["徐次長宜君：對，所以它的工作項目比較繁雜一點。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，有一個問題，剛才回答因為只有一家來，所以這麼多年下來，我們都只有一家來，這中間的問題其實不小，第一個，為什麼只有一家來，什麼原因？有沒有去理解過、瞭解過？"],["李部長遠：有，因為我們……"],["萬委員美玲：這個只有一家來，有沒有一些人謀不臧在裡面，或者是有沒有一些疏忽在裡面，或者是整個典禮活動的預算經費不夠高，沒有人要來？您總要找出問題來嘛！你不能老是一直給台視做，便宜行事地給它做，然後不斷地出錯，最後是什麼？最後就是部長您的感動到後來變成要去承接、面對這些沸沸揚揚啊！所以部長，我們要怎麼去解決這樣的問題？"],["李部長遠：我想我會整體檢討一下，據我個人瞭解，這個費用真的是不高，所以來標的非常少，因為標的時候它會虧，台視是臺灣第一家電視公司，後來民營化之後，他們很想要有形象，所以它其實是……"],["萬委員美玲：很想要有形象，現在這樣的形象好嗎？"],["李部長遠：但是整體……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，這件事情我們還是真的要做出一個懲處，您都知道假設是因為預算經費太低，沒有人要來，那你就要去思考怎麼樣辦好一個典禮，在足夠的經費之下，讓更有能力的人來承接，如果已經不斷在犯錯、不斷在出包，造成這個典禮去蒙羞，甚至引起這樣的沸沸揚揚，你就要去思考怎麼去懲處它、還適不適宜，這部分我們希望會後部長給我們委員會所有委員一個報告，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好，其實我們已經做懲處了，包括我們的合約上面有一些究責，就是扣款或者……"],["萬委員美玲：還有剛才我們所談論的這些問題……"],["李部長遠：對、對、對。"],["萬委員美玲：未來這一些事項，我們希望會後給我們一個完整的報告，好不好？"],["李部長遠：沒問題、沒問題。"],["萬委員美玲：好。今天部長在報告當中也有提到的，我們在文資的保存、修復上，最需要的就是人才，但現在人才的缺乏、人才的斷層非常嚴重，尤其部長不知道有沒有注意到，我們現在從教育面向來看，大家都往AI方向走，所以其實重理工、輕人文，因此現在你要找到年輕這一輩來投入，不管是人文社會科學學系，或者是我們稱作的文資人才，真的非常地難。我想請教部長，您知不知道現在文化部的文化資產人才庫裡面有多少人？"],["李部長遠：細節我不清楚，但是我們最近才開過一個會，您剛才講的問題是非常嚴重的。"],["萬委員美玲：所以您不知道有多少人，是嗎？"],["李部長遠：細節……"],["萬委員美玲：那我告訴部長，我們現在文資登錄的總數是3,237人，包括保存者、傳統匠師、藝生、古蹟修復工程工地負責人等。部長，這個資料是文化部的資料庫，但是有另外一個網站，這個網站是要提供給需要找尋文資人才的資料網站，您知道有這個網站嗎？"],["李部長遠：我不知道。"],["萬委員美玲：您也不知道有這個網站？回去要看一下，這個網站的數字是只有2,617人，所以跟文化部自己登錄的總數有620人的差距，到底哪一個才是真實的？怎麼連相關的人才統計都可以落差這麼大，這是第一個。而且在2,617人的這個網站當中，人才庫竟然還有登錄已經過世的人，所以我不理解，第一個，為什麼會有數字的落差？第二個，為什麼有過世的人你們還把他登錄在上面？這是因為網站疏於更新，還是美化數字？"],["李部長遠：這個部分我讓文資局局長來回答。"],["陳局長濟民：委員，這兩個數字，可能我們在定義的認定上面有一點落差，所以才會像剛才講的，像有的過世了，但是我們尊崇他，所以我們還是把他保留在上頭。"],["萬委員美玲：你說為什麼把他保留在上面？"],["陳局長濟民：等於是對他的尊崇，因為這是一個很好的……"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，我想這個回答你也聽到了。部長，這個網站上面叫做人才庫，人才庫是要供給有需要的人來人才庫找人才，您同意我的說法嗎？"],["李部長遠：我同意。"],["萬委員美玲：你們把過世的人放在上面，找人才的人來這個網站上面看，有意義嗎？當時我們在調資料的時候，文資局的答復其實本席非常地不滿意，這個是文資局的答復，它說：「文化部依文化資產法第八十九條、第九十一條登錄認定無形文化資產保存者，保存者過世後，基於尊重其殊榮，爰保留於國家文化資產網人才庫。」部長，您會後去看一下，結果第八十九條、第九十一條完全沒有提到這個部分，今天文化部文資局給的資料怎麼可以亂講、亂答，非常不尊重自己，更不尊重委員，對不對？你對得起自己的專業嗎？亂講一通！第八十九條、第九十一條哪有就這個來講。本席上去找，在第九十三條，可能還有一條比較相關的，其規定為「保存者因死亡、變更、解散或其他特殊理由而無法執行前條之無形文化資產保存維護計畫，主管機關得廢止該保存者之認定。」所以這個是指文化部可以來廢止的。","我們必須要講，這個人才庫是要給有需要的人去找人才的，但是我們對於剛剛所說的，對文資人才殊榮的尊重，我們要紀念他，我們可以譬如在一些網站、史冊，或者什麼樣的形式，我們特別去紀念他，讓大家想瞭解的、想看的可以在這個地方看。所以不應該為了去美化這個數字，前後數字兜不攏，給我們的法條也不對，這樣有對嗎，部長？"],["李部長遠：當然是不對，非常感謝萬委員今天講的這些細節，其實我一直覺得我們文資保存要改變的地方還是蠻多的，因為我自己有開過會，發現它也有蠻多很嚴重的地方，包括……"],["萬委員美玲：是，所以……"],["李部長遠：未來我們能不能在制度面上鼓勵年輕人加入我們的修復，另外，我們對於文資保存的工作，給他一種榮耀感，這個我覺得蠻急迫的。"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長剛剛說希望年輕人加入，我們就要講，你看喔！你們現在真的非常缺人，如果按照剛才你們那個資料庫裡面是2,617人，扣掉已經過世還寫在上面的，還有一些身分重疊的在裡面，本席認為恐怕連2,500人都不到啦！但是現在登錄文化資產保存的總共有6,380件，2,500人不到，我覺得人力真的非常地吃緊。而您剛剛說要找年輕人來加入，可是目前大學、大專院校有開設文資專業科系的只有4間學校，包括臺北大學、雲林科大、臺北藝術大學及佛光大學，只有這4所，而且培養出來的人其實非常地有限。結果文化部表示，你們為了要培育文資人才，從104年開始起，你們設置了文資學院，這個學院不曉得部長您知不知道？"],["李部長遠：知道，我還去參觀過。"],["萬委員美玲：好，這個學院你們透過計畫經費的方式來補助，號稱104年到112年有一萬多人次去上課。但是部長，上完課以後，看起來很「澎湃」，而上完課以後，你們有沒有給他做認證？再來，培育出來的學員，你們有沒有列入文資人才庫？數量是多少，您知道嗎？"],["李部長遠：這點我真的搞不清楚。"],["萬委員美玲：我告訴您，好不好？這個數字您要不要自己說有多少人？"],["陳局長濟民：委員，文資學院人才的性質跟我們認證的……"],["萬委員美玲：你只要告訴我，從您剛剛說的文資學院出來的人，有多少你們把他列入文資人才庫裡面？"],["陳局長濟民：沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有，好，部長，0啊！0，是只有0！也就是說，有一萬多個人來上課，上完課以後，煙花一場、煙花一場。所以部長，這些問題你剛接觸到，你也重視了，我覺得非常欣慰，因為我們要面對問題。因此我們如果找不到年輕的學生，然後我們又那麼缺文資人才，如果你們自己做的文資學院的經費也編下去了，最後進到人才庫的只有0喔！你們也沒有去做相關的追蹤。部長，我想今天因為時間也到了，不管是金曲獎也好，或者是文資學院也好，經費一下去了，煙花一場過後，我們留不下任何的東西，我覺得這樣是不行的，所以希望部長在人資的培育上面能夠更嚴謹，才能夠跟得上我們現在需要文資人才的速度，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：是，萬委員，你講的就是我最近很憂心的，這涉及到一些證照的條件，我想我們會立刻面對法制的部分，來修法鼓勵這些年輕人可以投入我們的徵人工作，這一點我覺得非常重要。"],["萬委員美玲：最後一句，文化部自己要重視，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["萬委員美玲：不要連那個數字前後都兜不攏。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，部長請回。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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台式14次14次所以台式辦進取獎其實有高達14次部長"},{"start":145.475,"end":165.506,"text":"布長 這個問題就嚴重囉其實他出包不是今年才出包因為您是今年可能才接了這個部長這個位置您有在現場去看他往年就出過很多次包了去年不知道您記不記得就在第34屆的金曲獎因為頒獎卡片他排版不佳就主持人念錯有沒有那還造成了大家很多的尷尬"},{"start":166.186,"end":166.906,"text":"我來回答我想請教部長"},{"start":194.002,"end":196.545,"text":"臺灣電視早期只有3家的時候他們能力非常好後來變成100家之後"},{"start":213.459,"end":213.659,"text":"市長 徐市長"},{"start":236.156,"end":254.609,"text":"跟委員報告 我們都是用公開招標的方式來用什麼樣的標 最低標 最有力標 哪一種標我們是用那個 準用最有力標最有力標 好 最有力標是評選嘛那何以十幾年來 他有經驗 然後還出錯出錯以後又再得標 得標以後再出錯 出錯又再得標可以告訴我為什麼嗎"},{"start":255.69,"end":269.24,"text":"其實這幾年都只有台式一家公司來投標那因為我們這案子我跟委員簡單報告因為我們整個金曲獎不是只有頒獎典禮我們要整個案子裡頭是從25號開始我們有個金曲獎這個我理解來部長所以他的工作項目比較繁雜一點部長有一個問題喔剛才呢回答說因為只有一家來所以這麼多年下來我們都只有一家來這中間的問題其實不小第一個為什麼只有一家來什麼原因"},{"start":285.495,"end":310.406,"text":"有沒有去理解過 了解過那這個只有一家來有沒有一些人謀不當在裡面或者是有沒有一些疏忽在裡面或者是我們這個整個典禮活動預算經費不夠高沒有人要來您主要找出問題來嘛您不能老是一直給台式做然後呢平行形式的這樣給他做然後不斷去出錯最後是什麼最後就是部長您的感動到後來變成要去承接面對這些沸沸揚揚啊"},{"start":312.322,"end":331.367,"text":"市長我們要怎麼去解決這樣的問題我會整體檢討一下因為據我個人了解他這個費用真的是不高所以來標的非常少因為標的時候他會虧那台視是台灣第一家電視公司後來民營化之後他們很想要有那個形象所以他其實是"},{"start":331.727,"end":358.397,"text":"很想要有形象現在這樣形象好嗎?所以我想部長這件事情我們還是真的要做出一個懲處那如果說您都知道說假設是因為預算經費太低沒有人要來那你就要去思考怎麼樣辦好一個典禮在足夠的經費之下讓更有能力的人來去承接那如果已經是不斷在犯錯不斷在出包造成這個典禮去蒙羞那甚至於引起這樣沸沸揚揚你就要去思考"},{"start":358.717,"end":358.917,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":378.886,"end":397.026,"text":"今天部長在報告當中有提到我們在文資保存修復最需要的就是人才但現在人才的缺乏人才的斷層非常的嚴重那尤其部長不知道有沒有注意到我們現在從教育面向來看大家都往這個AI方向走所以其實眾理工"},{"start":398.067,"end":400.43,"text":"部長,您知不知道現在文化部的文化資產人才庫裡面有多少人?"},{"start":418.683,"end":446.06,"text":"細節我不清楚但是我們最近才開過一個會您剛剛講的問題是非常嚴重的所以您不知道有多少人是嗎好 那我告訴部長我們現在的文資登入的總數是3237人包括保存者、傳統匠師、益生、古蹟修復、工程、工地、負責人等但是部長這個資料是文化部的資料庫但是我們有另外一個網站這個網站是要提供給需要文資人才找尋的資料網站您知道有這個網站嗎"},{"start":447.341,"end":447.461,"text":"文化部部長"},{"start":468.351,"end":484.427,"text":"而且這個2617個人這個網站當中啊這個人才庫竟然還有這個登錄已經過世的人啊所以我不理解第一個為什麼會有數字的落差第二個為什麼有過世的人我們還把他登錄在上面這是因為網站屬於更新還是美化數字"},{"start":492.068,"end":503.157,"text":"這兩個數字可能我們在認定上面定義上面有一點落差就像剛才講到有的過世了但是我們要遵從它所以我們還是把它保留在上頭"},{"start":503.777,"end":527.819,"text":"您說為什麼把他保留在上面?就是因為對他的尊崇啦,因為這是很好的...好,部長我想這個回答你也聽到了來,部長我們在這個網站上面叫做人才庫人才庫是要供給有需要的人來這個人才庫來找人才您同意我的說法嗎?我同意那我們把過世人放在這上面那找人才的人來這個網站上面看有意義嗎?我想喔"},{"start":529.68,"end":541.492,"text":"當時其實我們在調資料的時候文字局的答覆其實本席非常的不滿意他說這個是文字局的答覆他說文化部依照《文化資產法》第89條91條的登錄認定這個無形文化資產的這個保存者他這個過世之後基於剛回答的"},{"start":549.54,"end":566.785,"text":"尊重其殊榮所以保留於國家文化資產的這個網站人才庫啊結果呢部長您會不會去看一下89條91條完全沒有提到這個部分你們建文化部文資局給資料怎麼可以亂講亂答啊非常不尊重自己更不尊重委員啊"},{"start":567.825,"end":594.718,"text":"對不對?你對得起自己的專業嗎?亂講一通89條、91條哪有就這個來講好!本行上去找在93條可能還有一條比較相關的他是說這個93條規定保存者因為死亡變更解散或其他特殊理由無法執行前條之無形文化資產保存維護計畫主管機關得廢止該保存者之認定所以這個是說文化部是可以來廢止的那我們必須要講"},{"start":595.858,"end":620.273,"text":"這個人才庫是要給有需要的人去找人才的但是我們對於剛剛所說的這個文資人才的殊榮的尊重我們要紀念他我們可以比如說在一些網站啦史冊啦或者什麼樣的形式啊我們特別去紀念他讓大家想了解想看的那我們可以在這個地方來看所以不應該啊為了去美化這個數字前後數字都不攏給我們的法條啊這個也不對這樣有對嗎部長"},{"start":623.549,"end":646.454,"text":"當然是不對,我想說非常感謝萬委員今天講這些細節,其實我一直覺得我們的文資保存要改變的地方還是蠻多,因為我自己有開過會,發現它也蠻多很嚴重的地方,包括為了我們能不能在制度面上鼓勵年輕人加入我們的修復,另外我們對於文資保存的工作給它一種榮耀感,這個我覺得蠻緊張的"},{"start":646.854,"end":648.215,"text":"文化資產保存有6,380件,2500人不到"},{"start":669.727,"end":698.83,"text":"我覺得這個人力真的非常的吃緊而您剛說要找年輕的這個人來加入可是目前我們大學大專院校有開設文資專業的科系的只有四間學校包括臺北大學雲林科大還有臺北藝術大學跟佛光大學只有這四所而且培養出來的人其實非常的有限結果呢文化部說我們為了要培育文資人才104年開始期我們設置了文資學院那這個學院部長您知不知道"},{"start":699.07,"end":699.991,"text":"文資人才庫的數量是多少?您知道嗎?"},{"start":725.632,"end":747.409,"text":"對阿我真的搞不清楚我告訴您好不好這個數字阿您要不要自己說有多少人委員這個文資學院的人才阿他的性質跟我們你只要告訴我從這個文資人才您剛剛說這個文資學院出來的人有多少我們把他列入文資人才庫裡面有多少沒有沒有好部長林阿林"},{"start":751.112,"end":755.546,"text":"是只有零也就是說我們有一萬多個人來上課上完課以後煙花一場"},{"start":756.926,"end":785.422,"text":"沿花一場所以部長這些問題您剛接觸到您也重視了我覺得非常欣慰因為我們要面對問題喔所以我們如果啊找不到年輕的學生然後我們要那麼缺文資人才結果我們自己做的文資學院經費也變下去了最後進到人才庫只有零喔那我們也沒有去做相關的追蹤所以部長我想今天因為時間也到了喔那我希望啦齁我們不要有一些喔不管是我們金曲獎也好或者是我們在這個文資學院也好"},{"start":785.942,"end":786.122,"text":"萬美玲主席"},{"start":816.163,"end":820.012,"text":"最後一句 文化部自己要重視好不好不要連那個數字的前後都不攏謝謝部長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154448","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154448","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdea29509dab31d8cc266d74c0b9571b08dc75a2b8c9f1b706b39433cafc38c7155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:37:08 - 09:48:02","影片長度":"00:10:54","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:37:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T09:48:02+08:00","duration":654,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":34,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-34"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時37分）有請法務部、金管會。"],["主席：請黃次長還有金管會銀行局的侯主秘。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：請問次長，根據行政院消保處統計，2020年到2023年各地方政府受理涉及融資公司相關的消費爭議，每年大概多少件？"],["黃次長世杰：這個報告裡面有，不過我現在沒拿在手上……"],["羅委員智強：300到400件左右。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：你覺得數量多不多？"],["黃次長世杰：其實占整個比例算是還好。"],["羅委員智強：融資公司放款亂象，其實已經不是單純市場秩序問題，它逼著很多根本不具備金融知識的一些人，比如說初出社會的一些年輕人，在還沒進到社會就背負了債務，進而演變成社會問題，所以本席也認同修正民法第二百零五條的一些相關規定，以杜絕融資業者巧利名目，收取不合理的高利，但是我看了法務部列了很多要審慎考慮的修法理由，雖然也不是沒有道理，不過我想要問，委員提案修法就是為了要解決融資公司貸款所衍生的相關問題，如果今天要審慎考慮的有這麼多理由，我不知道法務部對於解決問題有沒有什麼良策？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，剛才我在報告的時候有特別提到，部內民法債編的研修小組在上個月有特別提請，針對委員提案跟這個修法方向，已經跟專家學者諮詢過了，我們原則上是贊同要修正這個條文，以解決社會的問題，但是因為我們的立法體例是民商合一，所以這個條文不是只會適用在我們剛剛所看到的這些違法業者身上，事實上，只要跟利息有關的所有商務行為，或是政府機關的行為，也都跟這條法律有關，所以我們已經發文，就我們諮詢的內容，跟所有的機關來做函詢，等我們蒐集完意見、綜整之後，針對這次所提出來的問題，我們會想辦法在條文裡面或在立法理由裡面來擬出一個版本。","當然還有一個問題，可能要請各位委員來協助，因為這個條文假設修正的話，新舊法之間的適用，可能在施行法也需要有一個提案的條文才能夠做配套，所以這個部分法務部也會研議，到時候看立法程序上可以怎麼樣進行。當然我們的立意跟委員都是一樣，我們希望能夠藉由這個修正來解決現在所看到的年輕人或者經濟弱勢族群所面對的困境。"],["羅委員智強：希望次長協同金管會相關部門，能夠儘快把你認為應該要更周延化的院版或部版的法律案提出來。"],["黃次長世杰：是，瞭解。"],["羅委員智強：因為這個問題我覺得需要遏止。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教次長另外一個問題，美麗島電子報的董事長吳子嘉已經去告發新華社記者趙博媒體報導內容涉有內亂罪，你知道這個事情嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：可能現在才聽委員提起。"],["羅委員智強：吳子嘉的這個聲明裡面認為，趙博是大陸地區人民，據報載他的行為涉及壓制在場所有人的意思自主，構成脅迫行為，報載尚指該節目配合國台辦，此顯涉顛覆我國政府之內亂罪，所以要委請律師告發。如果報載屬實，電視台和趙博涉嫌變更國體，顛覆我國之普通內亂罪，就是刑法第一百條。那我想請教，目前你還不知道高檢署有沒有受理，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：裡面有一個關鍵，吳子嘉聲請要傳喚包括2名自由時報記者，以及陸委會主委邱垂正、民進黨立委沈伯洋，這件事情我想次長總會有一些瞭解吧？因為沸沸揚揚地，不太可能不知道，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：我是剛剛聽委員的……"],["羅委員智強：趙博去盯梢東森電視台的某個政論節目。"],["黃次長世杰：有稍微看過新聞媒體的報導。"],["羅委員智強：次長，這個事情鬧這麼大，你身為法務部、我們國家的法務主管機關，就像吳子嘉為什麼今天到高檢署去告，請問高檢署是誰管轄的？"],["黃次長世杰：最高檢察署和法務部。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！法務部，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：最高檢，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：那我想請教您，這個事情你還是要有所掌握，沒錯吧？"],["黃次長世杰：是，委員今天的垂詢，因為涉及個案偵查的事項……"],["羅委員智強：我知道一定又講個案偵查不公開。"],["黃次長世杰：是，沒有錯。"],["羅委員智強：但你們七千五百多件的偵查公開，我上次就質詢過了。沒關係，但我只問你一個道理，今天這個案子成案之後的話，吳子嘉很明確指出，2位自由時報記者，還有民進黨立委沈伯洋，為什麼要傳喚這3個人？為什麼？"],["黃次長世杰：這個請委員賜教。"],["羅委員智強：因為源頭就是3個人，不是嗎？這件事所有的源頭就是這3個人，如果這件事屬實的話，你就要循線去瞭解到底事實真相如何，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：我想高檢署的檢察官……"],["羅委員智強：我就問嘛！請問趙博盯梢……"],["黃次長世杰：如果有受理相關案件，他們會依法去查明相關的事實。"],["羅委員智強：趙博盯梢，請問這個首先揭露於報導的是誰？是哪個報紙報導？自由時報，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以吳子嘉希望能傳喚這2個自由時報記者，因此有爆料人喔！爆料人就是這2個自由時報記者。但比這2個自由時報記者更早的爆料人是誰，次長知道嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我不曉得。"],["羅委員智強：就是民進黨立委沈伯洋，他說2個月前就知道了。而且部長你不太合格喔！你知道是為什麼嗎？他2個月前就跟國安單位報告了，當然可能部長未必把次長你算進去，對不對？但是法務部職司犯罪偵查，次長，請問國安單位如果接到這個之後要偵辦，法務部應該也要參與協助吧？"],["黃次長世杰：我想是由檢察署的檢察官、專責的檢察官參與……"],["羅委員智強：對，所以我希望我們的檢察機關……"],["黃次長世杰：我們的法務行政……"],["羅委員智強：沒有，剛才我是問你道理而已。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：很明確，爆料人就3個，2個自由時報記者，加上偉大的、天眼通的民進黨立委沈伯洋，2個月前就神知道啦！那我想請教下一個問題，陸委會副主委梁文傑對此案的評語是什麼，你知道嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：請委員指教。"],["羅委員智強：他說沒有爆料人耶！沒有爆料人！你有看報紙吧？"],["黃次長世杰：是……"],["羅委員智強：這個事件是自由時報最先報導吧！是不是？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：那自由時報就是爆料人哪！就是啊！我想請問你，你總不會跟我說你連新聞什麼事件都不看，你不知道沈伯洋2個月前就已經神知道了嗎？次長。"],["黃次長世杰：他們的說法可能跟委員現在的這個說法有點出入。"],["羅委員智強：出入？他就說知道。不管知道的有多少出入，他知道這件事情，而且跟國安單位已經去舉報了，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以也是爆料人。因此我跟次長講，梁文傑說沒有爆料人，要嘛就是睜眼說瞎話，要嘛就是什麼呢？他可能是認為沈伯洋不夠格當爆料人，因為沈伯洋就是個假訊息的造謠龍頭，如果是造謠者的話，可能梁文傑根本不認為是爆料。那我要請問次長，我上次質詢院長，我有講過，過去8年民進黨用社會秩序維護法主要是辦造謠，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是……"],["羅委員智強：你知道辦了多少件嗎？有六百多件。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：然後有五百件法院裁定不罰，所以我講民進黨很愛辦所謂的造謠，對不對？那我想請教，今天如果沈伯洋是造謠的話，請問法務部要不要辦？該不該辦？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，社維法相關的規定是由警察機關先發動，法務部這邊檢察機關……"],["羅委員智強：我就法律意見問你，你不是經常發表法律意見？民進黨這麼厲害，遇到造謠就去辦人家，還辦到是豐功偉業、七成多被民進黨辦的造謠法院都打臉耶！超級棒的、一級棒的辦案效率。而沈伯洋現在龜縮起來，算不算造謠啊？"],["黃次長世杰：這個我想要由沈委員自己來說明。"],["羅委員智強：當然，他現在開始龜縮起來，跟大家說這個有點是……開始在那邊閃避問題。最重要的是梁文傑，梁文傑說沒有爆料者，沈伯洋就是爆料者！他要嘛就假爆料造謠，要嘛真爆料，結果是國安單位今天荒怠職務不查，就這兩個可能性！當然不管怎樣，這個事情既然吳子嘉已經去告發，我希望法務部能夠好好就爆料人，請檢察機關斟酌案情，要不要去約談一下爆料人？不要又當作是二五六沒發生。"],["黃次長世杰：我想高檢署的檢察官會依職權進行、依法辦理，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：期待、期待。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員、謝謝黃次長。接下來請莊委員瑞雄發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-34","speakers":["鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","黃珊珊","郭國文","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案；(二)委員鍾佳濱等\n25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.58159375,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.032843750000001,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.06221875,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.25596875,"end":21.344093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.28471875,"end":23.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.59659375,"end":25.613468750000003},{"spe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涉有媒體報導內容涉有內亂罪你知道這個事情嗎"},{"start":231.778,"end":257.229,"text":"我想請教一下吳子嘉的這個聲明裡面他認為說趙博是大陸地區人民那據報載那他的行為涉及壓制在場所有人的意識自主構成脅迫行為報載擅指該節目配合國台辦此顯色顛覆我國政府之內亂罪所以要委請律師告發"},{"start":258.109,"end":274.409,"text":"那如果報宅屬實電視台跟趙博涉嫌變更國體顛覆我國之普通內亂罪就是刑法第一百條那我想請教一下那目前高檢署你還不知道有沒有受理嘛對不對那裡面一個關鍵來囉"},{"start":277.216,"end":294.254,"text":"吳子嘉號他申請要傳喚包括兩名自由時報記者包括陸委會主委邱垂正以及包括民進黨立委沈博洋這件事情我想次長你總就有一些瞭解吧因為沸沸揚揚不太可能不知道嘛對不對"},{"start":297.117,"end":319.562,"text":"趙博,然後去盯騷東森電視台的某個政論節目。有稍微看過新聞媒體的報導。部長、次長,這個事情鬧這麼大,你身為法務部,我們國家的法務的主管機關,就像吳子嘉為什麼今天到高檢署去告?請問高檢署是誰管轄的?"},{"start":320.987,"end":330.917,"text":"高檢署是最高檢察署跟法務部法務部嘛最高檢嘛對不對那我想請教您這事情你還是要有所掌握吧沒錯吧"},{"start":332.756,"end":358.817,"text":"這個委員今天垂詢因為涉及個案偵查的我知道一定有講個案偵查不公開但你們7500多件偵查公開我上次都質詢過了沒關係但我只問你一個道理今天這個案子成案了之後的話吳子嘉很明確的指出囉兩位自由時報記者還有民進黨立委沈伯陽為什麼要傳喚這三個人啊為什麼"},{"start":363.137,"end":382.682,"text":"這個請委員釋教因為源頭就是三個人不是嗎這件事所有的源頭就這三個人如果這件事屬實的話你就要循線去了解說到底事實真相如何嘛 對不對我就問嘛請問這個趙伯丁少趙伯丁少齁請問這個首先介入於報導是誰是哪個報紙報導自由時報嘛"},{"start":393.607,"end":418.538,"text":"所以這就是吳子嘉要希望能傳喚這兩個自由時報的一個記者所以有爆料人喔爆料人就這兩個自由時報記者啊但比這兩個自由時報記者更早的爆料人是誰?市長你知道嗎?就是民進黨立委沈博洋啦他說兩個月前就知道了而且部長你不太合格喔為什麼你知道嗎?他兩個月前就跟國安單位報告了"},{"start":419.814,"end":448.315,"text":"國安單位當然可能部長說未必把你算進去啦 次長啊 把你算進去啦 對不對但是法務部直施 對不對 我們的犯罪偵查次長請問 這個國安單位如果接到之後 這要偵辦法務部應該也要參與協助吧我想是由檢察署的檢察官齁 專責的檢察官來做服務 來做參與所以我希望我們的檢察機關 沒有我剛剛我是問你道理而已喔那我就想請教一下 很明確爆料人就三個啊"},{"start":449.56,"end":469.974,"text":"兩位自由時報記者加上偉大的天眼通的民進黨立委沈博洋啊 兩個月前就神知道了啊那我想請教一下一個問題齁我們的陸委會的副主委楊文傑對此案的評語是什麼你知道嗎他說沒有爆料人欸沒有爆料人欸你有看報紙吧"},{"start":476.915,"end":490.693,"text":"這個事件是自由時報最先報導吧?是不是?那自由時報就爆料人嗎?就是啊!但我想請問你你總不會跟我講說你連新聞什麼事件都不看你不知道省不省兩個月前就已經神知道了嗎?"},{"start":491.794,"end":514.25,"text":"他的說法可能跟這個委員現在的說法有點出入啦出入他就說知道不管知道出入多少他知道這件事情而且就跟國安單位已經去舉報啦對不對所以是爆料人啦所以我跟各位講我跟次長講梁文傑說沒有爆料人要嘛就睜眼說瞎話啦"},{"start":515.202,"end":543.954,"text":"要嘛就是什麼呢?他可能是認為沈伯陽不夠格當爆料人因為沈伯陽就是個造謠假訊息的造謠龍頭啊所以這種造謠者的話可能我們梁文傑根本不是認為是爆料啊那我要回到請問一下我們的那個次長我上次質詢我們院長我有講過我們用過去民進黨八年用社會秩序維護法主要是辦造謠啦對不對"},{"start":545.27,"end":556.902,"text":"你知道辦了多少屆嗎?有七百多屆 六百多屆然後有五百屆法院裁定不罰啦所以我在講說民進黨很愛辦所謂的造謠啦 對不對"},{"start":560.626,"end":582.017,"text":"那我想請教一下 沈博洋今天如果說他是造謠的話 請問法務部要不要辦 該不該辦跟委員報告社會法相關的規定是由警察機關來先發動 那法務部這邊警察機關我問你就法律意見問你嘛 你不是經常發表法律意見嗎"},{"start":583.458,"end":600.576,"text":"民進黨這麼厲害對不對 遇到謠言 造謠就去辦人家 民眾還辦到說 豐功偉業七成多被民進黨辦的造謠法院都打臉欸 超級棒的 一級棒的一個辦案效率啊沈伯陽他現在歸索起來算不算造謠啊"},{"start":601.818,"end":627.595,"text":"這個我想要由陳委員自己來說明當然啦他現在開始歸索起來跟大家講說這個有點疑似開始閃避問題那最重要的是梁文傑啊梁文傑說沒有爆料者省不上就爆料者他要嘛就假爆料要嘛就是假爆料造謠要嘛真爆料結果呢是國安單位今天荒帶職務不查啦就這兩個可能性啦"},{"start":629.156,"end":652.268,"text":"當然不管怎樣我希望法務部這個事情既然吳子嘉已經去告發了能夠好好把爆料人請檢查機關斟酌案情爆料人要不要去約談一下不要當作是256沒發生 謝謝我想高檢署的甲官會議職權來進行一法辦理期待"}]}},{"id":"154447","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154447","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdd37392fa7197c0cccb3f5941fe168625dc75a2b8c9f1b70642ffa54afed2a8c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:32:45 - 09:44:38","影片長度":"00:11:53","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:32:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T09:44:38+08:00","duration":713,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":197,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時32分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：主委早。延續剛剛的那個話題，現在有人提出這個修法，要把海外的配置從45%降到25%。第一個，條文裡面沒有看到實施多久之內要降下來，假設退一萬步講，就是這個法律通過要降下來，這樣回來臺灣的資產大概會多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，現在我們壽險業的總體資產大概三十二兆元左右，剛剛提到，我們現在如果以這樣的額度下來的話，我們估計大概必須減少九兆多的金額，那也代表說，如果這樣調降的話，壽險業必須立刻做將近九兆元左右的資產配置改變。"],["吳委員秉叡：稍待一下，請嚴副總裁。"],["主席：請嚴副總裁。"],["吳委員秉叡：副總裁，剛剛彭主委的說明你有聽到吧？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：有。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果法律降成25%，會有九兆多臺幣要回來臺灣，從外國的資產變賣九兆多的臺幣回來臺灣，有關臺灣的通貨，第一個，國內多九兆的通貨，中央銀行如何處理？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，我從另外一個角度去思考這個問題好了，臺灣是一個經常在順差的國家，基本上經常在順差的國家應該是讓我們的資金投資到國外，所以不管是保險業或者是政府基金，其實大量資金是投資在國外，這是在平衡我們國內經濟的一個很重要……"],["吳委員秉叡：對，這個我瞭解，我只是問你，如果突然之間九兆的臺幣要回來臺灣，新臺幣會升值很多吧？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：要看他的……"],["吳委員秉叡：因為外國的貨幣要購買新臺幣才能回來臺灣啊，突然之間要買9兆的新臺幣，那要賣多少的外幣？那購買新臺幣，新臺幣就會變得非常搶手，我估計至少要漲到二十四、五塊或二十五、六塊，就是兌換一美元嘛！"],["嚴副總裁宗大：而且國內債券市場的規模也沒有那麼大的容納量，所以這也都是很多延伸出來……"],["吳委員秉叡：第二個，因為新臺幣突然之間走這麼強，美國會不會認為我們臺灣在操縱貨幣、操縱匯率？是不是有這樣的可能性？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我想那是假設性的。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，那你請回座。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：我是說退一萬步，萬一法律通過的話啦！我再繼續請教彭主委。"],["主席：副總裁請回，請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：彭主委，這個回來不是那麼簡單，回來國內之後要幹嘛？突然之間9兆元回來，他也不能夠放在家裡，不能夠鎖在金庫、放在銀行啊！在資金氾濫之後，要有投資標的啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：那要投入股市嗎？投入房市嗎？這樣股市、房市不是就在短期之間有9兆的資金像大水漫灌，會不得了啊！那可能不是2萬3,000點，可能是3萬3,000點、4萬3,000點，如果硬要把它丟進來的話，會不會有這樣的可能性？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在保險業投在海外的資產大部分都是長期的投資在有固定收益、特別是長期的債券上面，很多是要獲取長期、穩定的報酬，如果說真的回來，誠如剛才央行副總裁所提到的，臺灣確實應該是整體債市的規模可能也差不多是這個金額而已，所以現在也很難容納，在進來以後會走到什麼地方去，其實這個很難預期，雖然保險法對於各種投資工具都有一定上限的規定，可是畢竟像股票、不動產都是保險業可以投資的項目，而且這些也都不用經過核准，這樣就會形成他未來資金去路上面的一個疑慮。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以的確有這樣潛在的危險性，只是說程度可能沒有像我形容的這麼極端。再來，我再請教一個問題，以美國的債券為例，美國的國債在世界上是一個很大的市場，有很多的投資標的都會投資美債，尤其是美國發行的國家公債因為最近所謂的暴力升息，所以那些舊的、在以前發行的長債，現在在債券市場都是大幅的跌價嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，是有重大的未實現損失。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果我持有債券，譬如說10年期的債券，我持有到10年的時候可以還本，這10年的利率我都要給你拿，我至少在第10年要到期的時候會回本，不會賠錢嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是你如果中途突然之間叫我得解約、得賣，我得在現在的債券市場上賣出的時候，我要蒙受巨大的損失啊！如果我們臺灣的保險業必須要在短期之內趕快拋售美債的話，你們有沒有估算過我們的保險業會受到多大的損失？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這個數字我們初估差不多大概……因為我們投資在海外的這個比例，投資在固收上面應該超過七、八成以上，那以剛剛那個額度乘一下，其實我們在過去20年來利率的水準，實際上，我們也面對到剛才講的，就是現在馬上可能要逐步降息，那這些保險業購買這些長期債券，都是為了持有到期、獲取報酬，其實在這個評價確實會誠如委員講的，如果現在很快的做final sale，就是我們這樣去把它拋售，確實影響的層面會非常的大，雖然我們現在沒有細緻的數字，但是應該是一個非常大的數字。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，那你知道嗎？臺灣的這些保險公司有的是在金控底下，有的是保險公司，他們都是股票上市公司，有沒有估算過有多少投資人？有百萬以上的投資人吧！就是持有股票的所有權人。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：那我要請你們小心一件事情，你這個如果隨便做，這些股票的投資人覺得因為政府的政策讓他們蒙受巨大的損失，他們會包圍金管會，你要怎麼辦？幾十萬人去包圍你們說：突然之間莫名其妙，害我賠錢哪！政府怎麼可以這樣做？那時候你要如何處理呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以金管會對這樣的調整是持保留的態度，我們覺得還是不要做這樣的調動會比較符合現行的經營狀況。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，那我瞭解你的立場了，請你回座。請財政部莊部長跟促參司的李司長。"],["主席：請莊部長還有李司長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長早、司長早。部長，剛剛談了很多，在裡面就提到其實還有很多的資金可以投入在臺灣的公共建設，那當然促參是其中的一個方法，不是全部的方法，是一個重要的方法，那你有沒有歸納一下，為什麼鼓勵了這麼多年，金額還是占這麼小的比例呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，第一個就是案源，也就是說，我們必須要有更多的公共建設、讓保險業資金可以投入的案源；第二個就是說過往我們相關的法規對保險業資金的相關投資有一些限制，但是金管會已經修正相關法令的規定，對於保險業投入公共建設，比如說，在董監事派任的席次上有所放寬，所以這個部分在……"],["吳委員秉叡：這個剛剛在報告裡面都有了，不用再重複。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，那案源的部分是我們要繼續跨部會一起來做努力，就財政部來說，我們是鼓勵以及協助各目的事業主管機關對於它所要做的公建儘量以促參的模式來做，那我們財政部就是要去優化有關的法制環境，以及對於履約爭議能夠加速的協調、處理，這樣來讓投資者更有信心。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你交換意見，我從處理這個政策跟民眾陳情的內容，我跟你報告，李司長是一個很傑出的人才，他對這個法令的解釋、觀念是很清楚，那麼現在的問題是在哪裡？我提出我的看法來跟你討教，看看你認不認同，最主要的就是我們臺灣整個公務體系還有整個社會很怕人家賺錢，所以其實今天講保險業必須要投入這些東西，他就必須要有一定的獲利空間，簡單說，人家在做生意，人家的資金是要本錢的、是有成本的，那你如果叫人家做這些東西，卻不讓人家有賺錢的空間，那人家為什麼要來做呢？還有別的地方可以賺啊！這條溪沒有魚，我去別條溪釣，我不一定要在這條溪釣魚，這不是我唯一的選擇。但是問題是臺灣從上到下、從公務員到整個社會，只要商人賺錢，就認為這個是圖利商人，你們就是圖利商人的政府啦！對你們這個政府就是要來抓弊，所以我們要成立調查委員會，把你們這些人都抓來問，如果你不來的話，我要給你罰錢啦！臺灣是不是就是這樣的觀念？所以大家說政府那一塊不要去觸碰，我跟私人來往，我怎麼賺都跟你沒有關係，我只要繳稅就好了嘛！那如果我跟政府之間有什麼公共建設的往來、促參的往來，然後有賺到錢，那就該死了，檢察官要來查，立法委員要來查，大家都要來揭弊、都要來打弊案啦！到底是不是弊案還沒有講清楚就先扣帽子、就先成立調查委員會嘛！我覺得這對於促參是一個非常錯誤的觀念，這樣哪裡叫促參？這個就是為了要防弊案而防止人家投資啊！怎麼有促參的觀念？你說是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒錯，確實是像委員講的，但是這個部分的觀念應該要去做改變，第一個就是應該要有一個合理的利潤，然後民間來投資才有誘因，就是要有合理的利潤；第二個就是打破所謂的政府是零出資這樣的觀念，所以在我們修法以後，有一個所謂政府購買公共服務這樣的新機制。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，李司長，你回答一下，因為你在促參司這麼久，你的觀念很正確，你是不是說明一下對我剛剛講的是不是也稍有同感？"],["李司長建賢：報告委員，謝謝您剛剛的引導，其實的確這是一方面的問題，但是以促參司的立場，我想我們是從兩個部分，一個是鼓勵，一個是協助，那在鼓勵的部分，我們現在是鼓勵各機關，除了原有的交通建設或者是觀光遊憩、商業設施這些可以做促參之外，我們也希望各部會的這些主管單位能夠包括我們現在最需要的長照、醫療，甚至像社會住宅這方面，其實它後面的需求量都很大，也符合我們現在社會發展的趨勢，那這些部會是不是可以往這個方向來思考？"],["吳委員秉叡：好，加油啦！因為我們多了一些投資的管道，讓社會往正確的觀念、方向走，這些都是未來國家要繼續健全、繼續壯大的重要原因，大家一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接著請賴士葆賴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大\n參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員\n會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢；二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.57096875,"end":2.3934687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3.0178437500000004,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.03471875,"end":3.5915937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.527843750000001,"end":7.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.152218750000001,"end":7.995968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.603468750000001,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.168468750000002,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.68284375,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.00284375,"end":19.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.67346875,"end":23.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.70659375,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.68909375,"end":29.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.933468750000003,"end":30.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":31.097843750000003,"end":44.024093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":44.42909375,"end":47.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":47.24721875,"end":53.845343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.91284375,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":56.62971875,"end":58.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.16846875,"end":73.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.53409375000001,"end":77.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.02721875,"end":79.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.96784375,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.57096875,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.05159375000001,"end":84.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.69284375000001,"end":85.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.68846875,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.88659375,"end":86.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.90346875,"end":87.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.11846875,"end":89.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.82284375,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.61971875,"end":96.25221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.43784375,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.09096875,"end":105.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.83721875,"end":111.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.18659375,"end":119.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.03034375,"end":112.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120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sale,就是我們這樣去把它拋售,確實會影響層面非常的大。那個金額其實,雖然我們現在沒有細緻的數字,但是應該是非常大的一個數字。好,那你知道嗎,台灣的這些保險公司,有的是在金控底下,有的是保險公司,他們都是股票上市公司欸。"},{"start":371.195,"end":381.936,"text":"投資人有沒有估算過多少投資人?上百萬以上的投資人吧?持有股票的所有捐贈啊?我要請你要小心一個事情,你這個如果隨便做"},{"start":383.131,"end":386.433,"text":"金管會對這樣的一個調整我們是持保留的態度是我們覺得還是不要做這樣的調動會比較符合現行的我們經營的狀況"},{"start":411.405,"end":419.692,"text":"那瞭解你的立場,請你回座,請財政部莊部長跟我們促參司理事長請莊部長、理事長委員好部長早,市長早,部長"},{"start":430.395,"end":450.644,"text":"剛剛談了很多,裡面就提到說其實還有很多的資金可以投入在台灣的公共建設那當然,促參是其中的一個方法,不是全部的方法是一個重要的方法那你有沒有歸納一下為什麼鼓勵了這麼多年還是金額比例還是佔這麼小的比例勒?"},{"start":451.768,"end":472.595,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是案源也就是說我們必須要有更多的一個公共建設的讓保險業資金可以投入的一個案源那第二個就是說過往保險業也就是說我們相關的法規對保險業資金的一些相關投資有些限制但是金管會已經修正相關法令的規定"},{"start":473.295,"end":500.465,"text":"對於保險業突入公共建設比如說在董建市的一個派的席次上也有所放寬所以這個部分在...這個剛剛報告裡面都有了不用重複了對那案源的部分那是要我們繼續就是說跨部會一起來做努力那就財政部來說我們是鼓勵以及協助各目的事業主管機關對於他所要做的公建盡量是以促參的模式來做那我們財政部就是要去優化有關的法制的環境以及對於履約爭議"},{"start":501.565,"end":527.402,"text":"可以能夠加速的協調處理,這樣讓投資者有更有信心。我跟你交換意見,我從處理這個政策跟民眾陳情內,我跟你報告,理事長是一個很傑出的人才,他對這個法令的解釋東西觀念是很清楚。他現在問題是在哪裡,我覺得啦,我跟你討教看看你認不認同,最主要是我們台灣整個公務體系還有整個社會,很怕人家賺錢。"},{"start":529.437,"end":543.509,"text":"所以其實今天講保險業必須要投入這些東西他就必須要有一定的獲利空間簡單講人家做生意人家的資金是有本錢的嘛有成本的嘛那你如果叫人家做這些東西不讓人家有賺錢的空間"},{"start":544.77,"end":546.031,"text":"那人家為什麼要來做呢?"},{"start":546.031,"end":556.777,"text":"我有別的地方可以賺啊!這K沒錢 把K中 我不一定要中這K我不是說我唯一選擇但是問題是 台灣從上到下 從公務員到整個社會喔!"},{"start":556.777,"end":569.104,"text":"只要商人賺錢 這個就是圖利商人啦!你們這個就是圖利的政府啦!所以你們這個政府就是 要來捉弊啦!所以我們要成立調查委員會 把你們這些人都捉來問啦!你不來的話 我要給你罰錢啦!"},{"start":572.972,"end":589.017,"text":"是不是台灣就是這樣的觀念,所以大家說政府委員會不要去報、不要去報、不要去吸我跟書信那樣我怎麼談,沒有你的關聯,我就挑水就好了嘛如果跟政府之間有什麼樣子的公共建設的往來、出身的往來賺肉錢,那該死了啦檢察官要來查啦,立法委員會要來查啦大家都要來揭秘、都要來打弊案啦還沒有,到底是不是弊案還沒講就先扣帽子嘛就先成立調查委員會嘛"},{"start":603.663,"end":623.599,"text":"我覺得這是一個很對於畜産非常錯誤的觀念這樣哪裡叫畜産這個就是要防避防止人家投資怎麼有畜産的觀念你說是不是沒錯委員講的確實是但這個部分觀念應該要去做改變第一個就是說應該要合理的一個利潤然後政府來"},{"start":624.259,"end":644.17,"text":"然後民間來投資才有誘因這是要合理的理論第二個就是說打破所謂的政府是零出資的這樣一個觀念所以我們修法以後有所謂政府購買公共服務這樣的一個新的機制好那理事長你回答一下因為你在促三思這麼久你觀念很正確你是不是說明一下我剛剛講的你是不是也有少有同感啊"},{"start":645.601,"end":662.783,"text":"報告委員謝謝您的這個剛剛的引導其實的確這是一方面的問題但是以出安市的立場我想我們從兩個部分一個是鼓勵一個是協助那在鼓勵的部分我們現在是鼓勵各機關除了原有的交通建設"},{"start":663.644,"end":687.269,"text":"或是觀光遊器、商業設施這些可以做促參之外那我們也希望說各部會的這些主管單位能夠包括像我們現在最需要的長照、醫療甚至像社會住宅這方面其實它後面的需求量都很大那也符合我們現在社會發展的趨勢那是不是這些部會可以來往這個方向來思考"},{"start":687.649,"end":687.889,"text":"接著請賴仕寶、賴委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"154446","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154446","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd6e124906d218f04ccb3f5941fe168625dc75a2b8c9f1b706587fe82801ebd7d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:18:56 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09:32:39","影片長度":"00:13:43","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:18:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T09:32:39+08:00","duration":823,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":126,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時18分）謝謝主席。與會各列席單位首長、各官員。是不是請中央銀行的嚴副總裁？"],["主席：請嚴副總裁。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：委員好。"],["林委員德福：副總裁你好。我請教一下，因為臺幣繼續在貶值，你如何看待整個臺幣的貶勢呢？副總裁。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：基本上，我們看到在國際上美元最近也一直在走強，這是一個外在的因素；第二個，我們也看到最近外資有在臺股出脫的現象。"],["林委員德福：出脫？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：對。"],["林委員德福：你認為這種貶勢哪時候可以止貶回升？最起碼能夠維穩。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，因為中央銀行在維持匯率穩定上，我們有一定的角色，所以我們看到匯率貶太多或升太多的時候，都會進場去做適度的調節。"],["林委員德福：好。中經院、台經院公布之經濟數據，景氣復甦力有未逮，你如何來看待未來我們整個景氣呢？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，我們在今年6月13號的時候預估今年是3.77%，比主計總處的3.9%低一點，因為我們看到去年下半年臺灣經濟成長的基期還滿高的，所以今年下半年相對地成長會減緩一點點。"],["林委員德福：所以說你還是看好？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：對。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：謝謝。"],["林委員德福：副總裁，你請回去，我請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["林委員德福：主委你早。臺股近期走勢震盪，主委，對於我們的前景，你認為依然樂觀，還是未來有其他的看法呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實金管會是我們市場的主政機關，我們對未來不做預期，不過我們會密切觀察，最近整個臺灣的股市確實是……"],["林委員德福：走勢震盪啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為市場的波動是難免的啦，我想我們是關注於整個制度面的健全與否，金管會確實不太方便對未來的股市做預期。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！彭主委，預期美國將降息，如何來看待目前整個降息的進度對於臺灣未來影響會如何？"],["彭主任委員金隆：市場上普遍預期美國大概是9月會降息，其實影響未來市場層面的主要因素，除了美國的利率政策以外，另外就是美國的年底選舉，大家預期這兩個可能是最大的變數。所以我想臺灣這一波股市的發展，其實跟我們的基本面是有關的，剛才央行副總裁也說過，我們未來的經濟成長率，還有在我們的經濟景氣對策信號裡面也是連續兩次的黃燈，我們的出口也持續暢旺，還是有基本面的支持。"],["林委員德福：所以你對我們整個未來的景氣是看好的，還是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才跟委員報告過，金管會是會關注到整個市場的健全度，我們也注意到市場現在的反應是什麼原因，我剛剛也跟委員報告過，就是我們對未來市場不做預期，但是我們會審慎地注意。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["林委員德福：主委，根據保發中心的統計，壽險業投資運用於公共建設的項目，從投資金額占壽險可運用資金來看，只占可運用資金的0.42%喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["林委員德福：是0.42%，換句話說，行業的資產規模持續擴大，也無法有效來刺激增加投資公共建設的金額占比。請問主委，你認為有哪些誘因是有利於刺激並吸引保險業者提升參與公共建設的意願呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實壽險業的資金長期投資海外，有它整個時空環境的背景，假設臺美的利差相對穩定、匯率相對穩定的話，其實對於壽險業而言，過去的投資策略它會比較傾向於做海外的投資，因為他必須解決它利差的……"],["林委員德福：所以國內投資很少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是因為最近臺美利差擴大，避險成本增加，其實現在是一個好時機，因為對於壽險業而言，現在投資國內，如果有案源的話，他們的動機會更強，因為投資海外的風險確實在加大中。"],["林委員德福：所以壽險業應該是可以去考慮本國的投資，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以我們才想說，其實我們應該趁這樣的機會，怎麼樣擴大案源、怎麼樣把保險業的錢留在臺灣、建設臺灣，也可以幫助保險業去化資金，也可以幫助保險業降低經營風險。"],["林委員德福：你認為這些誘因是不是已經達到了成熟的目的，甚至於超越國外投資相同條件的吸引力呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們在做所謂的資本系數的時候，確實是有做一些比較有利於這樣的誘因，比如說我們對投資國內公建的話，我們把系數降到比較低的系數，是希望能夠刺激我們的保險業多多考慮國內的公建，當然最重要的還是要有案源，也是今天我們想說，大家應該集社會之努力，我們應該有更多的案源能夠讓國內的國人可以投資國內，不只是保險業。"],["林委員德福：那你認為如果保險業者對這些投資公共建設應該採取主動，是不是才能夠真正達到目的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想保險業經營有它自己的自主性，因為他們的資金來自於客戶，是有成本的，他們一定會尋找最有利的投資標的。我想政府的工作，除了做安全性監理以外，還要營造一個有利於它發展的環境，所以這部分我們會來努力。"],["林委員德福：主委，媒體報導國發會上個月17號召集金管會、經濟部還有財政部促參司等部會開會，會中金管會反應業者認為三大難題，包括沒有案源、投報率以及投資的方式。請問主委，業者所認為的三大難題，你認為是不是全部無解？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛跟委員報告，這個確實有難度，比如說我們保險業的資金是有成本的，他如果要投資的話，必須有三個條件，第一個要適合的案源；這個案源的報酬條件也要適合，這是第二個；第三個是他的方式，是用什麼方式？直接、間接還是透過各種工具，我想這些都是我們要努力的。不過我覺得這件事情確實現在是一個好的機會，因為像我剛才講的，整個大環境有利於保險業更加大對國內的投資，所以……"],["林委員德福：你認為這個到底有沒有解套的辦法？如果無解，那窒礙難行的癥結點到底是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實剛剛講到，其實保險業的資金主要是因為有一定的成本，所以他會要求要超過他的資金成本，比如說對保戶的承諾，所以針對怎麼樣擴大案源裡面能有穩定的報酬，而且長期穩定跟他的負債做匹配的話，我想這個我們可以來努力，我們看到有很多的機會，比如我們可能未來會通過的REITs證券化條例，還有就是剛剛財政部也報告了，也有很多各方在努力，希望能夠把錢留在臺灣，我們持續努力。"],["林委員德福：所以短時間內就誠如剛剛主委所提的這些，是不是出現曙光又或者必須跨部會去討論，你認為呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，我確實覺得這次有出現曙光，而且這次跨部會我覺得大家更有誠意，像剛才提到國發會也主動來做協調、也主動做這樣的釋出，我覺得現在政府團隊的氛圍非常好，大家都願意解決國內的問題。"],["林委員德福：主委，其實本席回想本席第一屆擔任立委，在金管會還沒有成立之前，當時為鼓勵保險業將多達上千億的資金導入國內的公共建設，財政部單獨列出保險業將資金投入公共建設的項目，並給予適當的風險係數作為刺激的誘因，經過了二十多年，每隔一段時間保險業資金投入公共建設的新聞就浮上檯面，彷彿看到資金導入公共建設的曙光；但事實的證明，多半都只是只聞樓梯響、不見人下來！","我請問主委，在您過去多年擔任保險界學者的這些觀察，為何二十多年來保險業資金投入公共建設的推動不如預期呢？你有什麼看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實在過去臺灣壽險業遇到一個結構性的改變，從2002年開始，2002年開始臺灣的利率大幅地快速下降，一直持續到最近才有比較多的改變，過去這二十年來，保險業面對低利率的環境，在國內的投資報酬率低，再加上2002年他們銷售很多高利率保單，不得不移向海外賺取利差、彌補他的虧損，所以這部分形成這樣的過程。我剛才講說，現在這個情況有所改變，我覺得這是一個很好來討論這方面的時機。"],["林委員德福：主委，目前有立委提出修正保險法條文，打算把保險業海外投資上限，由現行可運用的資金從45%降到25%，那我請問主委，你認為修法調降海外投資上限是不是就能夠增加保險業對國內投資的籌碼，來刺激保險業主動將資金投入國內公共建設，你認為這樣可行嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，這有兩個層面，第一個我剛才報告過，其實如果要投資公建，我們整個額度中現在大概還有三兆左右的額度，其實是非常、非常足夠的。至於如果真的把我們的國外投資比例直接從45%調成25%的話，因為保險業長期的海外配置都是長期投資，如果做這樣劇烈的改變，其實會產生非常、非常大的影響，因此這個東西要審慎……"],["林委員德福：要審慎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["林委員德福：會不會發生其他不可預期風險的可能呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這可能會對整個國內資本市場、不動產市場還有匯率都會產生很重大影響。"],["林委員德福：我請教最後一個議題，本席相信你非常清楚，保險業的資金大多來自保戶，需要穩定的收益率，但是現實上投入公共建設，興建期多為資金支出，並沒有現金流入，加上缺乏租稅優惠等誘因，就會影響投資公共建設的意願。主委，你說金管會希望先找到實驗型的個案，走一小步確定可行，讓外界看到引導壽險資金留在臺灣的可能性後，再來進行跨部會、利害關係人的說服工作。請問主委，推動保險業投入公共建設已經二十多年，就你的瞭解，面對三大難題是不是還停留在實驗型的階段？你認為呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我覺得已經開始有很大的改變了，至少我覺得我們施政團隊對這個的態度已經有很大、很大的改變，我覺得這是很好的契機，我們……"],["林委員德福：跟過去不一樣，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：尤其我們現在應該更積極，我覺得這是一個很好的契機。"],["林委員德福：這樣啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["林委員德福：如果真的早有進展，是不是代表現實上推動不力的阻力是來自政府；反之，一直以來進展不大，光靠實驗型的個案就期盼可以複製貼上，你認為真的有可行性嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我覺得不盡然都是剛剛提到的政府，我覺得是整個環境的因素，還有業者自己經營的考量，我也說現在的時機其實很適合持續推動。"],["林委員德福：那在你的任內推動亞洲資產管理中心，是不是就是實現保險業資金投入公共建設的一個關鍵呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，報告委員，這也是我們在推動亞洲資產管理中心的一項重要工作之一。"],["林委員德福：這樣啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["林委員德福：謝謝。"],["主席：時間到。","下一位質詢請吳秉叡吳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大\n參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員\n會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢；二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.48659375000000005,"end":2.6634687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.0515937500000003,"end":3.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.11471875,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.379718750000002,"end":10.493468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.084093750000001,"end":13.125968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.598468750000002,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.00221875,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.01909375,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.559093750000002,"end":25.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.17034375,"end":29.579093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.23721875,"end":31.671593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.430968750000005,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.970968750000004,"end":33.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.89471875,"end":40.885343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.56034375,"end":42.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.78784375,"end":44.766593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.34034375,"end":48.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.73221875,"end":52.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.61346875,"end":59.329718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.52784375,"end":60.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.54471875,"end":60.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.35471875,"end":65.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.09659375000001,"end":69.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.70784375000001,"end":73.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.25159375,"end":73.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.92659375000001,"end":73.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.94346875000001,"end":74.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.02784375,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.85471875,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.99221875,"end":86.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.00909375,"end":92.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.69159375000001,"end":97.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.88909375,"end":98.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.68221875,"end":108.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.34346875,"end":107.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.09846875000001,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.25034375000001,"end":108.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.33471875000001,"end":108.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.43596875,"end":108.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.45284375000001,"end":108.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.48659375000001,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.65534375,"end":108.67221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.85784375,"end":108.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.87471875000001,"end":114.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.95471875000001,"end":110.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.66284375000001,"end":115.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.32909375000001,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.30784375,"end":119.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.91096875000001,"end":131.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.08221875,"end":131.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.09909375,"end":155.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.36971875,"end":154.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.73659375,"end":157.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.81221875,"end":169.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.47284375,"end":212.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.73159375,"end":188.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.99784375000002,"end":215.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.50784375,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.12784375,"end":217.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.14471875,"end":217.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.21221875,"end":217.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.26284375,"end":232.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.29659375000003,"end":217.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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才也說過我們其實上我們現在的未來的經濟成長率當然還有就是說我們在我們的經濟警測警緝對策裡面也是連續兩次的黃紅燈還就是說我們的出口也持續暢望還是有基本面的支撐所以說你對我們整個未來的景氣是看好的還是怎麼樣"},{"start":217.185,"end":240.353,"text":"我剛跟委員報告過金管會是會關注到整個市場的健全度我們也注意到市場的現在的反應是否是什麼原因我剛跟那個委員報告過就是我們對未來市場不做預期但是我們會審慎的注意這樣齁是主委阿根據保花中心的統計授權業投資應用與公共建設的項目從投資金額佔授權可應用資金來看"},{"start":243.402,"end":268.033,"text":"指佔可應用資金的百分之0.42是百分之0.42換句話說行業的資產規模持續擴大也無法有效來刺激增加這些投資公共建設的金額佔比那請問主委你認為有哪些誘因是有利於刺激並吸引保險業者來提升參與而且"},{"start":269.373,"end":292.259,"text":"這個公共建設的這些意願呢?是,報告委員其實受險業的資金長期投資海外有它的整個的時空環境的背景假設台美的那個利差相對是穩定匯率相對穩定的話過去這樣的投資策略其實對於受險業而言它會比較傾向於做海外的投資因為它必須解決它利差的問題所以說國內投資很少?"},{"start":293.2,"end":307.739,"text":"對,但是最近因為臺美利差擴大,避險成本增加,其實現在是一個好時機,因為對於受險業而言,現在投資國內,如果有岸緣的話,他們的動機會更強,因為投資海外的風險確實在加大中,所以說,"},{"start":308.72,"end":325.538,"text":"本國的投資應該是授權業可以去考慮是不是?所以說我們才想說其實我們應該趁這樣的機會怎麼樣擴大案源怎麼樣把保險業的錢留在台灣建設台灣也可以幫助保險業去花資金也可以幫助保險業降低經營風險"},{"start":326.559,"end":338.563,"text":"那你認為這些誘因是不是已經達到了成熟的目的甚至於超越國外投資相同條件的吸引力呢?比如說我們在做那個所謂的資本的那個係數的時候"},{"start":343.024,"end":367.586,"text":"我們確實是有做一些比較有利於這樣的一個誘因比如說我們對投資國內的公建的話我們把係數降到一個比較低的係數是希望能夠刺激我們的保險業多多考慮國內的公建當然最重要還是要有案源也是今天我們想說大家應該集社會之努力我們應該更多的案源能夠讓國內的國人不只是保險業能夠有可以投資國內"},{"start":368.82,"end":379.246,"text":"那你認為如果保險業者對這些投資公共建設應該是採取主動那才是是不是才能夠真正達到的目的"},{"start":380.168,"end":380.809,"text":"主委,媒體報導國安會上個月17號"},{"start":400.307,"end":421.818,"text":"召集金管會、經濟部、還有財政部、出產師等部會開會。會中金管會反映業者認為三大難題,包括沒有案源、投報率以及投資的方式。那請問主委,業者所認為的三大難題,你認為是不是全部無解?"},{"start":422.859,"end":443.36,"text":"其實我剛剛跟委員報告就是說這個確實有難度就是比如說我們保險業的資金它是有成本的它如果要投資的話必須有三個條件第一個要適合的案源這個案源它的報酬條件也要適合這是第二個第三個是它的方式是用什麼方式直接還是間接還是透過各種的工具我想這些都是我們要努力的"},{"start":443.8,"end":451.853,"text":"不過我覺得這件事情確實是現在是一個好的機會因為現在我剛才講整個大環境有利於保險業更加大對國內的投資所以你認為這個"},{"start":456.229,"end":484.923,"text":"到底有沒有解套的辦法?如果無解那至愛難行的癥結點到底是什麼?其實剛才講就是說其實保險業的資金主要是因為他有一定的成本所以他其實會要求要超過他的一個資金的成本比如說對保護的承諾所以我想說怎麼樣擴大這樣案源裡面能夠有一個穩定的報酬這件事情而且長期穩定跟他的負債做匹配的話我想這個我們"},{"start":486.044,"end":486.064,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":512.858,"end":513.358,"text":"主委,今次本席"},{"start":531.906,"end":552.325,"text":"回想本期第一屆擔任立委在金管會還沒有成立之前當時為鼓勵保險業將多達上千億的資金導入國內的公共建設那財政部單獨列出保險業將資金投入公共建設的項目並給予適當的風險係數作為刺激的誘因"},{"start":556.309,"end":582.717,"text":"那經過了20多年每隔一段時間保險業資金投入公共建設的新聞就浮上檯面彷彿看到資金導入公共建設的曙光但事實的證明多半都只是指紋樓梯響不見人下來那我請問主委在您過去多年擔任保險業界這個學者的這些觀察為何20多年來保險業"},{"start":584.137,"end":602.231,"text":"至今投入公共建設推動不如預期,你有什麼看法?我想報告委員,其實台灣在過去受險業遇到一個結構性的改變從2002年開始2002年開始台灣的利率大幅的快速下降一直到持續到最近才有比較多的改變這個過去這20年來"},{"start":605.333,"end":605.613,"text":"主委啊"},{"start":627.984,"end":649.093,"text":"目前有立委提出修正保險法條文打算把保險業海外投資上限由現行可應用的資金45%降到25%那我請問主委你認為修法條件海外投資上限是不是就能夠增加保險業對國內投資的籌碼來刺激保險業主要主動將資金投入國內公共建設你認為這樣可行嗎"},{"start":656.576,"end":680.622,"text":"只報告委員這有兩個層面第一個我剛剛報告過其實如果要投資公建剛剛我們整個的額度我們現在還有大概有3兆左右的額度其實這樣是非常非常足夠的那至於說如果真的把那個我們的國外投資比率直接從45調成25的話因為保險業的長期海外的配置都是一個長期投資如果做這樣劇烈的改變其實會產生非常非常大的這個影響"},{"start":682.583,"end":686.01,"text":"其實這個東西要審慎要審慎對會不會發生其他不可預期風險的可能呢?"},{"start":690.323,"end":713.176,"text":"這可能會對整個國內資本市場、不動產市場還有匯率都會產生重大影響最後一個議題我請教本席相信你非常的清楚保險業的資金大多來自保護需要穩定的收益率但是現實上投入公共建設新建期多為資金支出並沒有說現金流入加上缺乏"},{"start":714.176,"end":732.549,"text":"租稅優惠等誘因,就會影響投資公共建設的意願。主委,你說金管會希望先找到實驗型的個案,左翼小步,確定可行,讓外界看到引導受險資金留在台灣的可能性後,再來進行跨部會。"},{"start":733.77,"end":760.696,"text":"這個利害關係等的說服工作請問主委推動保險業投入公共建設已經這20多年來就是就你的了解面對三大難題是不是還停留在實驗型的階段現在我覺得已經開始有很大的改變了我覺得至少我們那個施政團隊對這個態度我覺得已經有很大很大的改變我覺得這是很好的契機我們過去不一樣是不是沒有"},{"start":762.256,"end":790.308,"text":"尤其我們現在應該更積極我覺得這是一個很好的契機這樣齁對是如果真的早有進展那是不是代表現實上推動不力的阻力是來自政府反之啊一直以來進展不大關靠實驗型的個案舊棋盤可以複製貼上你認為真的有可行性嗎呃剛剛報告委員我覺得不盡然都是剛剛政府我覺得是整個環境的因素還有業者他自己經營的考量"},{"start":790.788,"end":790.808,"text":"時間到"},{"start":819.932,"end":820.234,"text":"這位質詢請吳秉瑞吳委員"}]}},{"id":"154443","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154443","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd37e921c1abed6048266d74c0b9571b08dc75a2b8c9f1b7061da20d41cb0576d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:23:37 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09:37:03","影片長度":"00:13:26","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:23:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T09:37:03+08:00","duration":806,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":34,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-34"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":118,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時24分）謝謝主席鍾召委，有請黃次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長早。"],["黃次長世杰：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長，我們今天併案審查民法第二百零五條條文修正草案，主要是為了避免融資業者巧立名目來收費，我們明文規定在約定利率範圍違約金與相關費用總和不得超過16%的部分。誠如剛剛次長所做的說明，許多業者可能會巧立許多名目加收相關費用，進而導致債務人難以償還的狀況。我相信黃次長過去擔任立委的時候，可能也接受過類似的陳情案件，我們瞭解實際的經驗上，確實任何民間貸款的管道都有可能設下許多的陷阱。尤其在當事人急著用錢的時候，可能會傾向找放款快速的業者來借貸，而未詳細瞭解其收費的方式和價目，進而遭到業者以各種名目層層剝削。如果現行法規不夠周延的話，業者能夠無視於利率上限，則條文形同虛設。另就現行民法第二百零六條內容規定「債權人除前條限定之利息外，不得以折扣或其他方法，巧取利益。」與本次修法的目的大致相符。","我想請教，法務部認為修法與第二百零六條之間的適用會產生什麼樣的問題，是不是請次長大概回復一下？"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝委員的關心跟垂詢。這個部分在我們的討論中有提到，因為民法的設計，除了設定利率上限之外，還有民法第二百零六條的強制規定，但是實務上我們遇到一個問題，這個強制規定必須由法院來認定。也就是如果當事人之間因為約定的利息，經過巧立名目收取很多額外的費用，甚至隱藏在他種的契約，譬如說買賣契約或是其他的形式之下，它要單獨看法條的文字來跟業者做協商的時候，會比較難立論啦！","實務上，我們有詢問司法院代表的意見，他們也說在實務上像相關這一類的案件，經常都是一造辯論判決，也就是債務人根本沒有機會到法院去主張第二百零六條相關的適用。當然，如果依照大院委員目前提案的方向，我們增訂第二百零五條第二項的時候，仍然有學者提醒我們，不能因為我們訂了第二百零五條第二項說這些費用要計入利息的範圍之內，就排除了第兩百零六條的適用。所以我們會建議未來看條文的文字怎麼調整，或者是至少在立法理由裡面說明，增訂第二百零五條第二項這個方向並不排除法院可以同樣依照第二百零六條的規定來認定繫屬巧取利益，所以讓這個約定是無效的。不是只要在16%的範圍內就一定有效，這個部分跟委員報告。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，次長，我跟您報告一下，我們制定相關的規定，是希望能夠保護這些債務人。說實在，他可能是在財務緊急狀況之下，必須要去借錢，可是在相關的契約或是放款的業者所設下的一些內容，他沒有詳實的去閱讀的話，往往都是非常大的一個陷阱啦！"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以我還是請法務部針對這個部分確實的去落實管理，讓訂定的辦法不會讓債務人陷於被剝削的狀況。我還是要請教，對於規避利率上限的亂象，我們應該要如何嚴加控管，有沒有什麼比較具體的方式？"],["黃次長世杰：是，因為法務部主管是關於民法的條文，關於這一些現在大家比較關注的融資業者，或者說相關的這些金融或準金融的行為，應該是由金管會或者其他相關主管機關針對這些行業來做一些行政管制的作為。大院也在4月份的時候開過兩次委員會，針對這個問題來探討，我相信相關主管機關應該會在行政管制面上來做加強。我們今天來討論就是在民法的部分，是不是我們也可以把這種亂象做一些約制，剛才有跟委員報告，因為我們有觀察到實務上這些弱勢的債務人，他們通常都很難透過司法的途徑來主張自己的權利，不管是資源或是智識或是各種原因，如果我們在法律條文裡面，可以如這次委員們提案的方向，有一個比較明確的文字，或許他們在債務協商或者是溝通的時候，可以有一個比較明確的依據，某種程度上也可以解決一定程度的問題，當然並不能夠依靠一個條文的修正，就可以解決所有的亂象，恐怕還是要從我剛剛所說的，對於這些業者的管制，還是一個很重要的配套措施。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝次長，這部分就拜託法務部積極去辦理，能夠做一個比較有效的管理。"],["黃次長世杰：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，針對矯正機關的部分，我特別感謝鍾佳濱召委在星期一安排了宜蘭監獄的考察，在考察的過程當中，我要針對發現的一些問題來跟次長做一個探討，首先，在獄所方面，看起來目前戒護比的部分好像落差滿大的，宜蘭獄所現在應該是1比9的戒護比，甚至是更高，是不是因為獄方相關管理人力不足，還是收容的人數超收，到底是什麼原因，可不可以請次長您大概說明一下？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，以全國來看，我們矯正機關的戒護比確實較其他國家是高出不少，目前整體平均大約是1比9，誠如委員所說的，所以我們也不斷地向行政院請增相關的員額，目前部內的目標是希望能夠朝向1比6這樣一個初步的目標來邁進，但是仍然有很多困難要克服，畢竟國家資源有限，也需要大院的支持，就是我們來向人事總處請增相關的員額。","至於超收的部分，跟委員報告，我們在五、六年前就已經發現這個問題，所以我們做了很多的努力，第一個，我們有一些新的監所已經在興建當中，譬如說我們的八德外役監的分監，目前我們希望它能夠在年底前完成，這樣的話，就可以紓解整個北部地區相關的超收問題。因為我們有人口的因素，所以收容人的部分，我們原則上還是會依照他的戶籍就近來做收容，既方便他的家屬探視，也方便他復歸社會的時候，可以重建他的社會關係，所以北部、臺中以北，事實上，中北部是我們超收比例比較嚴重的地方，但是我們都儘量用機動等等方式來管控，讓超收的比例不要達到嚴重超收，也就是超過25%，這個部分我們會努力。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們的管理人員不足，常常會導致這些人員過勞，所以我們還是希望該增補的員額，法務部還是應該要去想辦法。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，在相關設備上，走了一趟之後，我發現這個建築物是在81年建的；經過0403地震之後也發現像立法院有一些建築物屋頂也有水泥塊剝落，我也希望針對臺灣所有的獄所，針對它相關的設備去做盤點，如果需要提升、要改善的，我們應該要積極去辦理，避免讓受刑人、管理員，因為環境的因素導致他有安全上的問題。"],["黃次長世杰：好的，這個我們會來做全面的盤點。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外還有兩點建議一下，我們之前有通過一項針對警察、消防、海巡、移民他們在夜間0點到6點有出勤的加班費，我希望法務部也可以向上爭取，讓在獄所裡面夜間執勤的這些同仁也能夠受到相同的待遇。我估算了一下，一個月的費用大概是140萬，說多也不多，是不是請法務部針對這個部分也要去爭取？讓我們所有的同仁要有同等的待遇。","第二點，關於戒護的危險加給，目前矯正機關的戒護危險加給頂多是4,500塊，但其他相關的單位可能是7,500到9,700左右，針對金額補貼的部分，法務部是不是也可以做相同的爭取？就是上述這兩項。"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，深夜危勞津貼的部分，事實上，過去也有委員來向行政院提出，不過人總目前還沒有答應，但是法務部已經責成矯正署積極準備相關的文件跟說明，尤其是我們的矯正同仁，其實他們也確實需要夜間出勤，譬如說戒護就醫等等臨時性的勤務，誠如委員所說的，也有辦法估算出所需的經費，表示確實有這樣的深夜勤務的存在，所以這個部分我們一定會全力協助矯正同仁向行政院這邊來做爭取。","至於危險加給的部分，據我們所瞭解，事實上在108年的時候曾經調整過一次，調整成現在的4,500元，它總共是分三級，這個部分我們部內也有在研議，希望能夠比照，因為我們也需要準備相關的資料來跟人事總處說明我們要提高的依據，包括相關人員、其他有領到這個金額的人員的勤務性質有雷同的地方等等，我們現在已經準備好相關的資料，一樣的，我們也會向行政院來爭取、來提出，也希望委員給我們最大的支持，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝次長，針對深夜危勞津貼，還有戒護的危險加給，有必要的部分，法務部應該積極爭取，讓我們所有的同仁在辛勞的過程裡面要有同等的待遇，我還是要強調這一點，以上，謝謝。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝委員關心。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝黃次長。接下來請羅委員智強發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-34","speakers":["鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","黃珊珊","郭國文","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案；(二)委員鍾佳濱等\n25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.812843750000003,"end":23.622218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.360343750000002,"end":25.934093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.76096875,"end":27.250343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.75659375,"end":36.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.649718750000005,"end":43.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.041593750000004,"end":40.463468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.10846875,"end":48.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.81659375,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.90846875000001,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.36346875000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00.626,"end":219.752,"text":"也就是說事實上債務人根本沒有機會到法院去主張206條相關的適用當然如果依照大院委員目前提案的方向我們增訂205條的第二項的時候這個時候仍然有學者提醒我們"},{"start":220.512,"end":237.53,"text":"就是說不能因為我們訂了這個二百零五條的第二項說這些費用要計入這個利息的範圍之內就排除了二百零六條的適用所以我們會建議說未來這個看條文的文字怎麼調整或者說至少在立法有裡面說明"},{"start":239.252,"end":241.593,"text":"市長我跟您報告一下就是我們還是希望說我們制定這個相關的"},{"start":268.308,"end":268.328,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":286.084,"end":287.905,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具 «民法第二百零五條條文修正草案》案。（議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":304.377,"end":308.722,"text":"對於我們規避利率上限的亂象,我們應該要如何嚴加控管?有沒有什麼比較具體的方式?"},{"start":322.126,"end":342.902,"text":"法務部主管是關於民法的條文關於這些現在大家比較關注的融資業者或相關的這些金融或準金融的行為應該是由金管會或相關其他的主管機關來針對這些行業來做一些行政管制的作為"},{"start":344.143,"end":359.274,"text":"大院也在4月份的時候開過兩次的委員會來針對這個問題來做探討相信相關的主管機關應該會在行政管制面上來做加強我們現在今天來討論就是說在民法的部分是不是我們也可以把這種"},{"start":360.014,"end":360.314,"text":"）委員鍾佳濱"},{"start":384.085,"end":407.037,"text":"明確的這個文字的話或許他們在債務協商或者是這個溝通的時候可以有一個比較明確的依據那某種程度上可以來解決一定程度的問題當然並不能夠依靠一個條文的修正就可以解決所有的亂象恐怕還是要從我剛剛所說的對於這些業者的管制還是一個很重要的配套的措施這樣"},{"start":407.597,"end":432.787,"text":"好,謝謝市長那這部分就拜託我們保護這個積極的去辦理能夠來做一個比較有效的管理另外就是針對這個矯正機關的部分那我特別感謝就我們鍾佳濱召委在星期一安排了去宜蘭這個監獄進行考察那我想說對於這個考察過程有一些這個"},{"start":434.507,"end":463.063,"text":"發言的問題跟次長您來做一個探討那在御所方面看起來這個我們目前的借戶比的部分好像明顯的這個落差蠻大的在宜蘭御所看起來現在目前應該是1比9的借戶比還是甚至更高是不是因為我們御方的這個相關的管理的人力不足"},{"start":464.267,"end":480.167,"text":"還是說我們這個收容的人數超收?到底是什麼原因?可不可以請市長您大概說明一下?是 跟委員報告那麼以全國來看我們的矯正機關的這個介護比確實較其他國家是高出不少目前"},{"start":480.868,"end":505.018,"text":"整體平均大約是1比9正如委員所說所以我們也不斷的在向行政院請證相關的緣額我們目前部內的目標是希望能夠朝向1比6這樣的一個初步的目標來邁進但是仍然有很多困難要克服畢竟國家資源有限我們也需要大院的支持我們來向人事總處來請證相關的緣額"},{"start":507.439,"end":529.955,"text":"操作部分跟委員報告我們在5、6年前就已經發現這個問題所以我們有做了很多的努力第一個是我們有一些新的監署已經正在興建當中譬如說我們的巴德外役監他的分監目前我們希望他能夠在年底就能夠來完成"},{"start":530.815,"end":531.015,"text":"﹚陳俊宇"},{"start":553.301,"end":553.421,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":572.409,"end":572.429,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":590.774,"end":608.407,"text":"那個走了一趟之後我發現這個可能因為他這個建築物是81年建築的然後那我們經過0403之後也發現像立法院有一些建築物這個屋頂也有這個水泥塊剝落那我也希望說我們針對整個我們台灣所有的寓所"},{"start":609.599,"end":610.139,"text":"另外還有兩兩點建議一下就是在欸"},{"start":631.363,"end":653.773,"text":"我們之前有通過一個就是針對警察、消防、海巡、移民他們在夜間0點到6點有出勤的加班費那我也希望說我們法務部是針對這個部分也可以向上去爭取讓我們夜間執勤的這些同仁這個獄所裡面執勤的這些同仁也能夠受到這個"},{"start":655.374,"end":655.394,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":671.064,"end":690.188,"text":"第二點就是這個借戶的這個危險加級借戶的危險加級目前我們矯正機關的這個借戶危險加級頂多是4500塊那我們這個其他的這個相關的一些單位他可能是在7000多到9700左右7500到9700那針對這個部分的"},{"start":694.613,"end":718.765,"text":"這個金額補貼的部分我們是不是法務部也可以相同的去爭取這兩項是跟委員報告這個深夜圍牢津貼的部分事實上過去也有委員來向行政院提出不過人總目前還沒有答應但是我們法務部這邊已經責成矯正署積極的準備相關的文件跟說明"},{"start":719.605,"end":719.765,"text":"陳俊宇"},{"start":741.596,"end":741.696,"text":"危險佳績"},{"start":761.776,"end":786.779,"text":"希望能夠比照因為我們也需要準備相關的資料來跟人事總署來說明說我們要提高的依據跟這個相關的人員其他有領到這個金額的人員的這個勤務的性質有雷同的地方所以我們現在已經準備好相關的資料那麼我們也會一樣來向行政院來爭取來提出那也希望委員給我們最大的支持"},{"start":787.88,"end":804.268,"text":"好謝謝市長那還是針對這個我們生業危老津貼還有介護的危險加急那有必要的部分我請我們法務部應該是積極爭取讓我們所有的同仁在辛勞的過程裡面要有同等待遇還是強調這一點好以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154442","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154442","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bda0c818b0971db6f827d0a78c1009ae5edc75a2b8c9f1b706f16bdf45e156e8645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:23:55 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09:36:35","影片長度":"00:12:40","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:23:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T09:36:35+08:00","duration":760,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":191,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時23分）謝謝主席，我們請李遠部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：柯委員，你好。"],["柯委員志恩：你好。我想我持續剛剛的問題，特別是三金，為什麼對這個問題特別關切？因為我35年前也曾經是金鐘獎教育文化主持人，好不好？不過知道這件事情的大概年紀都不小了，那也已經是非常久的事情了。","你剛剛對洪孟楷委員的問題已經做了一些答復，我必須要說，因為520你才上任，所以，金曲獎的承辦幾乎是在你上任之前就已經確定了嘛！所以說很多小編……我也相信以你過去一貫的立場，對於自由這樣一個定義，所以應該是小編在這個過程裡面出的小瑕疵，我比較在乎的是，說實在的，在過去，三金可以說是華人圈的一個盛事，所以你剛剛特別提到非常的多元，但是整個影響力跟我那個年代比起來，其實是下降的；對於這一點，部長你應該是同意吧？你當初在金馬獎為李安、為徐發行人等等，但現在這些已經風光不再了，這也是我們必須要接受的事實。","我比較關切的是，接下來的金鐘獎，特別是你非常熟悉的金馬獎，你有信心辦好嗎？像剛剛提到的那些，不管是突然的擦槍走火或是技術問題，你有信心把它處理好嗎？"],["李部長遠：我覺得以臺灣的影視發展，譬如你講金鐘獎，臺灣的劇集這幾年非常精彩，我們接受的除了電視之外，也接受在OTT上面的節目。"],["柯委員志恩：好，關於金馬獎的部分，你有信心辦好嗎？"],["李部長遠：對於金馬獎，我也很有信心。因為長期以來，金馬獎那個單位經過了李安當主席、張艾嘉，到現在李屏賓當主席，他們已經有能力對外募款達百分之八十……"],["柯委員志恩：好，我就是特別提醒，目前金曲獎因為一些技術問題，還有一些政治上面的問題，有一些紛擾，你自己也受到非常多的委屈，我希望在未來的二金當中可以記取教訓。","因為今天主席排的是有關於古蹟的部分，我想中正紀念堂也絕對是我們國定的古蹟，顧立雄宣布已經跟文化部協調好要把三軍移到自由廣場來，細節是由文化部來拍板，這是事實嗎？"],["李部長遠：因為我們臺灣有關中正紀念堂是一個非常敏感的問題。"],["柯委員志恩：我瞭解，所以說這是部長你的決定嗎？還是國防部的決定？我只問這個問題。"],["李部長遠：簡單說，我們其實誰都不能決定，因為行政院有一個……"],["柯委員志恩：喔，所以是行政院決定的？"],["李部長遠：中正紀念堂轉型正義的會報。"],["柯委員志恩：所以是他們決定的？所以說把儀隊移出去到廣場……部長，為什麼我要特別問這件事？我沒有那麼多政治思考，我只是覺得這些儀隊，你要知道他們曾經有過昏倒的紀錄，在室內沒有辦法，但把他們移到廣場去，在這麼高溫之下，這是一個非常嚴重的問題，所以你剛剛說不是你，也不是顧立雄決定的，是你更上層的那個委員會所決定的，是不是？"],["李部長遠：應該不是，因為這個東西是來自民間大家對於去威權跟去個人崇拜的……"],["柯委員志恩：好，那也可以啦！我先問一下，因為你上次回答我這個問題的時候，你說這個要有全民的共識嘛！那你說民間對於所謂去威權也有他們固定的一個想法嘛！所以轉型正義在全民共識之下進行，這是你5月22號回答本席時講的話，請問這句話還算數嗎？撤離儀隊是全民共識嗎？"],["李部長遠：謝謝你給我這個機會回答。"],["柯委員志恩：快一點，因為我後面還有很多……"],["李部長遠：我在5月20號回答的東西跟現在想法完全一樣，因為全世界經過威權統治的、法西斯統治的國家非常多，他們如何處理很敏感的紀念碑或者一個建築物，那個東西如果處理得不好的話，是繼續撕裂族群，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：好，沒有問題啊！"],["李部長遠：所以我會非常小心翼翼地處理。"],["柯委員志恩：不是，部長，你的重點，你或許認為一樣，可是我們聽起來重點不一樣，因為每個人都會選擇性地去理解、選擇性地去暴露，然後會選擇性地去接受。你上次回答我說你覺得民眾休閒是比較重要的，我當時還對你比較肯定，而且你那時候還特別提到，以人道的立場來說，三軍儀隊不是被大家在政權當中轉來轉去，這是你當初的一個立場，這個立場其實跟你現在所提到的，大家對於威權制度等等各方面的部分，其實有很大的改變，一個月來是有很大的改變欸！"],["李部長遠：沒有，如果你願意給我多一點時間的話……"],["柯委員志恩：我沒有那麼多時間給你，我只是覺得你是有一些……而且我要提醒你，部長，我比較在乎的，跟你前次所回應的，這是人民休息的一個地方，而且你可能不知道，中正紀念堂的遊客過去曾經比故宮還要多，曾經是320萬，在疫情之前兩岸觀光還有交流的時候，還曾經達到六、七百萬，甚至高達709萬這樣的人次，大家去那個地方的時候就是看看儀隊，但是對於蔣介石的功過，大家自有一些解讀，不會因為參觀了一下，然後就對這樣一個偉人開始崇拜或是摧毀，基本上，現在自由開放，訊息太多，所以我只能說，在你任內，你過去一般的立場跟你現在所講的部分，我個人覺得還是有一些落差，我只問一個，你覺得在你任內當中對中正紀念堂的轉型，你要發揮一個什麼樣的角色？"],["李部長遠：我覺得有三個面向，如果你願意讓我講一點……"],["柯委員志恩：1分鐘！因為等一下還有其他問題。"],["李部長遠：因為第一個，我們最近有一個讓全臺灣年輕人來設計中正紀念堂，我覺得歷史是要把它翻過去，舊的歷史要翻過去，可是不能遺忘，翻過去之後大家重新面對新的時代，所以最近我會巡迴全臺灣，展覽所有年輕人對中正紀念堂想像的那棟建築物。"],["柯委員志恩：OK，好，第二個？"],["李部長遠：第二個，中正紀念堂要如何解決去威權跟去個人崇拜？有幾個方式，一個就是從周邊的，像剛剛講到的民眾休閒、環境的改造，這是我第二個想法。第三個，至於我們的儀隊如何操槍，我們最後還沒有定案，我相信也不會讓他日曬雨淋，也不會把他撤掉。"],["柯委員志恩：所以還沒有定案就對了？那麼我再多問一個，國父紀念館目前還在修建當中，顧立雄部長其實對這兩個地方真的非常有意見，你跟他好好溝通一下喔！他說銅像部分還是會做適當的戒護，我不曉得他說的適當戒護是怎麼樣？萬一這個儀隊撤掉之後，能夠讓更多激進份子來做一些損毀的話，那你文化部的態度又是如何？"],["李部長遠：我想強化保全吧！這一點我的確覺得要顧慮到不同族群對同一個事情有不同的看法，從過去歷史上看到這種有經過威權……"],["柯委員志恩：是，你的保全應該跟國防部這樣子的保護完全是沒有關係就對了？"],["李部長遠：對，我作為一位政府官員的態度，應該是讓它不要衝突、不要撕裂，我剛剛一直強調說，我從進來講的話到現在的話還是一樣的，最重要的一件事情就是，我們要慎重處理過去的歷史，我們不要遺忘它，也不能夠為了逃避躲掉它，最重要的是讓過去的歷史仇恨翻過去，重新面對新的歷史。"],["柯委員志恩：我完全同意這個部分，只是你上次所講、所劃的重點，你現在把它講得更清楚，但是我還是要懇請部長，真的大家那時候一開始對你寄予厚望，就是因為你一本初衷，做很多事情你是還保有過去的一個想法，我還是希望文化部長就是以文化為基準點，不要被政治給凌駕。","接下來跟你問一個比較政治的問題，就像我們剛剛說的新華社，你剛剛已經特別提到，是聯合報來做一些邀請的。目前大陸駐臺大概有6家媒體、7名的記者，部長，就你所理解的部分來說，過去新華社或者是大陸的媒體來臺灣這邊，從過去到現在有多少是違規的，比例是多少？"],["李部長遠：這個部分，因為我才剛來，不太知道。"],["柯委員志恩：有多少是違規的？"],["李部長遠：我想請次長來說明。"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，新華社的部分並沒有其他違規的情形。"],["柯委員志恩：目前為止並沒有其他違規的一個狀況出現，「大陸駐臺」是指大陸其他駐臺的記者嗎？有沒有這樣子的一個紀錄？"],["王次長時思：曾經有過一家……"],["柯委員志恩：曾經有過一家？"],["王次長時思：曾經有過東南衛視，東南衛視後來……"],["柯委員志恩：所以目前為止都還是維持在符合規範的範圍裡面，那麼我問一下，大陸駐臺記者如果在臺灣有設備上的需求，像要租攝影棚或者SNG車，在文化部的規定當中可不可以？"],["王次長時思：基本上要看它的狀況來做申請，因為它……"],["柯委員志恩：是可以，還是看狀況？"],["王次長時思：因為他進來目的是進行駐點的採訪，那是依據這個採訪的需求而衍生的，如果沒有牽涉到其他的情形，就是看他的實際的狀況來做……"],["柯委員志恩：所以攝影棚是看你的實際狀況決定？當然你有前提設在那個地方嘛！所以攝影棚或SNG車的租借，在目前法規上面來說是OK的？"],["王次長時思：是，如果符合他在臺的活動目的是OK。"],["柯委員志恩：我只是說，到目前為止很多人想瞭解臺灣一些的訊息，透過這樣子傳輸的管道，不要把每個人都當匪諜好不好？我真的覺得我們臺灣現在已經處處都是匪諜，又回到我35年前的時代了，不止，更早以前的時代了，我們對臺灣民主要有相當的信心喔！不要把一些事情都擴大解讀，影射是最傷害的，好。謝謝！","最後，我要問一下，有關於大家非常關切的國定古蹟──鹿港龍山寺的彩繪工程，到底什麼時候會再來一次地把它復原？這是鹿港人非常在乎的。"],["李部長遠：這個我要請文資局局長跟你解釋一下。"],["陳局長濟民：委員，鹿港龍山寺的彩繪，我們在4月份做終止契約的決定，現在在進行結算的工作，結算之後我們會再……"],["柯委員志恩：好，局長，既然你都上來了，我還是要讓部長瞭解一下，我真的不曉得發生什麼事情。我們這位局長在擔任國美館副館長的時候，典藏庫房是解約的，我們要再次發包；擔任文建會第二處長的時候，又是解約再發包；擔任傳藝中心主任的時候，高雄中山堂修復工程也是解約再發包；這一次鹿港龍山寺彩繪修復工程我們延宕了兩年，解約之後這次又要再發包。請問為什麼一連串一直在出包，到底是什麼樣的問題？"],["李部長遠：我覺得臺灣的文資修復是一個非常複雜的問題，中央給錢然後地方來修復，這個我們真的還在學習中，因為臺灣有文資概念是很後面的事情……"],["柯委員志恩：我瞭解，局長，可是這是發生在你任內，你必須要做一些解釋，特別是這次大家非常關切鹿港龍山寺的這個部分，基層都完全反彈，因為裡面包括整個過程、美感、一些的數量等等，難道這麼多解約再發包都沒有辦法讓你們得到任何一點學習或是教訓嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：委員，龍山寺這個案子主要是團隊，我們的……"],["柯委員志恩：那麼之前的案子有沒有再重複發生？"],["陳局長濟民：每一個案例都不一樣。"],["柯委員志恩：雖然每一個案例都不一樣，但是結果都一樣，就叫做解約再發包。"],["陳局長濟民：我想這都是按照我們合約的規定啦！如果不解約，那我覺得那是失職。"],["柯委員志恩：這麼多次的狀況，部長，我今天特別提出來、條列這個部分，或許你剛上任，但是我覺得你一直強調，從過去歷史當中學到教訓然後往前走，不能回顧過去起碼可以往前看，這麼多的例子擺在這個地方，特別鹿港龍山寺承載了非常多鹿港人對於文化上面的一個精神寄託，現在已經延宕兩年了，同樣的問題還是存在，請問什麼時候可以讓這個彩繪工程正式的完工？給我們一個數字，局長或部長。"],["陳局長濟民：委員，這個我想程序還是繼續照走啦！"],["柯委員志恩：什麼時候？"],["陳局長濟民：可能我們要再……"],["柯委員志恩：什麼時候可以告訴我一個答案？"],["陳局長濟民：我一個禮拜之內。"],["柯委員志恩：一個禮拜告訴我，好不好？還有所發生的問題等等之類，請告訴本席，到底問題真正所在？還有過去的這些問題當中，我們如何從過去的教訓當中，得到一個學習的經驗，我覺得這才是最重要的，好。謝謝！"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩召委的質詢，部長請回座。","接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們請李遠部長好 有請部長柯委員 你好你好 我想我持續剛剛的問題 特別是三經為什麼對這問題特別關切因為我35年前也曾經是金鐘獎的教育文化的主持人好不好不過知道這件事情大概年紀都不小了好不好那已經是非常久的事情了"},{"start":25.666,"end":25.986,"text":"我比較在乎的是"},{"start":52.402,"end":80.801,"text":"說實在的這個三金過去可以說是華人圈的一個盛事所以你剛剛特別提到的非常的多元但是呢對於整個影響力跟我那個年代比起來其實是下降的這點部長你應該是同意吧你當初在金馬獎為李安為這個徐發行人還有等等這些的風功其實現在已經是風光不再這是我們必須要接受的事實我比較關切的是接下來金鐘獎特別是你非常熟悉的金馬獎你有信心辦好嗎"},{"start":81.561,"end":84.923,"text":"臺灣的影視發展比如金鐘獎臺灣的劇集這幾年非常精彩我們接受的除了電視之外也接受在OTT上的節目金馬獎我也很有信心"},{"start":104.938,"end":105.958,"text":"李安丹主席、張愛佳、李平平堂主席"},{"start":125.404,"end":125.684,"text":"文化部委員"},{"start":145.216,"end":160.525,"text":"因為我們臺灣的有關這個重症經驗談它是個非常敏感的問題我瞭解所以說這是部長你的決定嗎還是國防部的決定我只問這個問題簡單說我們其實誰都不能決定因為我們有一個那個行政院有一個這個所以是行政院決定的重症經驗談這個轉型正義的匯報"},{"start":163.186,"end":166.889,"text":"所以是他們決定的所以說把這個所謂的儀隊移出去到廣場部長我是為什麼要特別我沒有那麼多政治思考我只覺得這些儀隊你要知道他們曾經在這個曾經有過這個昏倒的記錄你在室內沒有辦法你把他移到廣場這個這麼高溫之下面這是一個非常嚴重的一個問題所以你剛剛說不是你也不是顧立松決定的是你更上層的那個委員會所決定的是不是"},{"start":190.185,"end":190.225,"text":"請問這句話還算數嗎?"},{"start":221.946,"end":244.393,"text":"謝謝你給我這個機會回答我在5月22回答的東西跟現在想法完全一樣因為全世界經過威權統治的法西斯統治的國家非常多他們如何處理那個很敏感的那個紀念碑或者是一個建築物那個東西如果處理得不好的話是繼續撕裂族群所以我會"},{"start":247.074,"end":270.466,"text":"非常小心翼翼的處理不是不是部長你的重點你或許你認為一樣可是我們聽起來重點不一樣因為每個人都會選擇性的去理解選擇性的去暴露然後會選擇性的去接受你上次回答我說你覺得民眾休閒是比較重要的我當時跟你比較肯定而且呢你那時候好特別提到說這個以人道的立場來說三金魚隊不是被大家在政權當中轉來轉去這是你當初的一個立場"},{"start":274.828,"end":298.247,"text":"這個立場其實跟你現在所提到的大家對於這個威權制度各方面部分其實有很大的改變欸一個月來是有很大的改變欸沒有 如果你願意給我多一點時間的話我沒有那麼多時間給你我只覺得你是有一些而且我只要提醒你部長我比較在乎的跟你前次所回應的比較知道這是人民休息的一個地方而且你可能不知道中正紀念堂遊客過去曾經比故宮還要多欸"},{"start":301.169,"end":305.192,"text":"曾經是320萬在這個所謂疫情之前兩岸觀光還交流的時候還曾經達到六七百萬曾經算到709萬的這樣的人次大家在去那個地方的時候就是看到儀隊但是對於這個蔣介石的功過大家自有一些的一個解讀不會因為你參觀了一下然後就對於這樣的一個偉人開始是崇拜或是摧毀"},{"start":324.964,"end":325.704,"text":"我覺得有三個面向如果你願意讓我講一點"},{"start":344.574,"end":366.685,"text":"一分鐘因為等一下還有因為我覺得第一個我覺得我們最近有設計到一個讓全台灣年輕人來設計中央紀念堂我覺得歷史是要把它翻過去舊的歷史要翻過去可是不能遺忘翻過去之後大家重新面對新的時代所以最近我會巡迴全台灣展覽所有年輕人對中央紀念堂想像的那個建築物那第二個"},{"start":369.045,"end":384.145,"text":"中正經常要如何解決一個去威懸跟去個人崇拜有幾個方式一個就是我們從周邊的剛剛講到民眾休閒那個環境的改造這是我第二個想法第三個至於我們的這個儀隊如何操"},{"start":385.066,"end":385.126,"text":"李遠列席"},{"start":415.006,"end":434.761,"text":"我想強化保全吧這一點我覺得的確要顧慮到不同族群對同一個事情有不同的看法從過去歷史上看到這種有經過威權是 所以你的保全應該就跟國防部的這樣的保護就完全是沒有關係就對了對 作為一個政府態度應該是讓他不要衝突不要撕裂我剛剛一直強調說"},{"start":435.862,"end":452.979,"text":"我從近年來講的話到現在的話還是一樣的最重要一件事情就是我們要慎重處理過去的歷史不要遺忘它但是我們也不能夠去為了逃避躲掉它但是最重要是讓過去的歷史仇恨翻過去重新面對新的歷史"},{"start":453.559,"end":453.879,"text":"文化部長李遠列席"},{"start":472.329,"end":491.083,"text":"就是以文化為基準點不要被政治給凌駕然後接下來跟一個比較政治的一個問題就像我們剛剛說的這個清華社你剛剛已經特別提到是聯合報來做一些邀請的那目前大陸駐台大概有6家媒體7名的記者部長就你所理解的部分來說過去清華社到台灣來有或者是從過去跟大陸的媒體到這邊來估計到現在有多少是違規的比例是多少"},{"start":500.631,"end":514.585,"text":"有多少是違規的?跟委員報告新華社的部分並沒有其他的違規情形目前為止並沒有其他違規的一個狀況出現大陸入台那大陸其他大陸駐台的記者嗎?有沒有這樣子的一個記錄?"},{"start":516.988,"end":521.95,"text":"大陸的駐台機車如果在臺灣有識別上的需求像是要租攝影棚或是SNG車在文化部的規定當中是可不可以?"},{"start":537.338,"end":537.959,"text":"所以攝影棚的租借或SNG車在目前來說是在法規上面是OK的?"},{"start":556.077,"end":578.456,"text":"我只是說目前為止很多人想了解台灣的一些的訊息透過這樣的傳輸的管道不要把每個人都當匪諜好不好我真的覺得我們台灣現在已經處處都是匪諜又回到我35年前的時代了不只喔更早以前的時代了因為我們要對台灣的民主要有相當的信心不要把一些事情都把它擴大解讀影射是最傷害的"},{"start":579.877,"end":580.999,"text":"這個我要請文資局的局長跟你解釋一下"},{"start":598.218,"end":623.795,"text":"委員陸港龍山市的彩繪我們在4月份做終止契約的這個決定那現在在進行那個結算的工作結算之後我們會再…局長既然你都上來了我還是要讓部長瞭解一下我真的不想發生什麼事情我們這個局長任國美副館長的時候典藏庫房是解約我們要再次的發保文件會第二處長的時候又是解約再發保"},{"start":624.275,"end":638.831,"text":"請問﹖"},{"start":639.964,"end":658.94,"text":"為什麼伊聯商一直在粗暴為什麼到底是什麼樣的問題我覺得台灣的文資修復是一個非常復雜的問題中央給錢然後地方來修復這個我們還在真的還在學習中因為台灣有文字概念是很後面的事情我了解可是局長這次發生在你任內你不需要做一些解釋"},{"start":659.52,"end":661.241,"text":"委員 龍山市這個案子主要是團隊那之前的案子有沒有再重復發生"},{"start":686.014,"end":697.715,"text":"跟這每個案例都不一樣每個案例都不一樣但是結果都一樣就叫做解約再發報我想都是按照我們的合約的規定如果不解約那我覺得那是失職"},{"start":699.435,"end":704.896,"text":"這麼多次的狀況部長我今天特別提出來條列這個部分或許你剛上任但是我覺得你一直強調從過去歷史當中學到教訓然後往前走不能回顧過去起碼可以往前看這麼多的例子擺在這個地方特別是鹿港潤山市是承載的非常多鹿港人對於文化的上面的一個精神的一個寄託現在已經延宕兩年了同樣的問題還是在存在請問什麼時候可以讓這個彩繪工程"},{"start":728.78,"end":730.861,"text":"請告訴本席到底問題真正所在還有過去的這些問題當中我們如何從過去的教訓當中得到一個學習的經驗我覺得這才是最重要的好 謝謝"},{"start":760.104,"end":760.164,"text":"謝謝 謝謝柯志恩"}]}},{"id":"154440","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154440","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bda28d72a06cfa7d8027d0a78c1009ae5edc75a2b8c9f1b70689b075e14f44f8d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:08:51 - 09:23:35","影片長度":"00:14:44","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「『文化資產保存法』施行40年有餘，修復體系翻新升級」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:08:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T09:23:35+08:00","duration":884,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":116,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時9分）謝謝主席，麻煩請李部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：洪委員你好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長，我們先請教一下上禮拜才剛落幕的金曲獎，當然金曲獎大家也都非常關心，因為三金其實也是我們的年度盛事，但是在這一次金曲獎裡面，反而大家會覺得有一些意外的插曲，包括製作節目的部分，然後在歌手演唱的時候，麥克風出錯，造成文化部之後還要出來道歉，還要說深自檢討，想請教一下到底有沒有去做瞭解，為什麼會出這樣的包？"],["李部長遠：整體來講，當時轉播的是台視公司，我們問了他整個過程，他們也對外公布了幾個重要的關鍵，其實是硬體的問題，就是整個技術問題，主要是麥克風的設備當時故障。"],["洪委員孟楷：但之前沒有彩排嗎？相信也都有啊！"],["李部長遠：都有，可是我覺得現場的狀況，應該是他們的人員不足，然後應付的反應不夠快，所以發現電池不良的時候，馬上換新的麥克風，可是旁邊的場控人員又報錯了麥克風的號碼，我想現場這種狀況是非常凌亂的。所以未來我們會改善作法，包括慎選我們的硬體跟協力廠商，確實掌握麥克風設備的狀況，增加一些無線訊號監控跟技術人員調度跟作業的SOP。"],["洪委員孟楷：看起來都是技術性層面的問題？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那未來，譬如像這樣子的相關承辦廠商，是不是也應該要把它列為考核的項目？"],["李部長遠：我請承辦的次長說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：簡單說明一下，好不好？"],["李部長遠：OK，好。"],["徐次長宜君：好，報告委員，關於這次的整個部分，我們有跟台視做過檢討，我們是一定會依照契約來究責，然後包括扣款，我們也會依照契約的相關規定做未來後續典禮承辦的相關檢討跟參考。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。再請教部長……"],["李部長遠：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，現在也有看到，居然得獎者上臺致詞的部分，也有說被粉專給消失，那你當然也有受到媒體的詢問。其實本席還是強調，重要的影視頒獎典禮，得獎者上臺致詞就是屬於得獎者的，我們每一個人都應該要尊重，因為榮耀時刻要說什麼就是言論自由嘛！尤其關心國際大事也是一個高尚人道的關懷。但是，為什麼會在這一個情況下，還是會讓大家有一些這種互相的討論？甚至本席也看到，好像現在已經就變成是有點高度對立，居然還講到說我們有高捷這一位藝人，說實在，高捷這位藝人也算是臺灣資深的藝人，他講一句「晚上好」也被網友酸爆。","部長，上一次本席也才在這邊質詢您，請教如果用「估計」一詞，會不會覺得是用大陸用語？你那時候講文化是包容的。所以針對文化部辦這樣子的一個獎項，然後網友是這樣子的討論，您自己怎麼看？"],["李部長遠：我沒有想到這件事情會鬧那麼大的原因是，其實每一次的頒獎，過去也有完全不會把得獎人的得獎致詞即時打出來，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：不管得獎者、不管頒獎者，他們的言論是不是都應該要被尊重？"],["李部長遠：對，要尊重，所以我們這一次的方式為什麼會出差錯？就是因為現場的速度很快，而負責打字的小編，大概打到50個字到100個字就馬上上傳，因為馬上要進到下一個節目，所以第一，他絕對是無心之過，因為他就跟著打字，打到差不多50個字到100字的時候就上傳，巴奈（Panai）最後講的天安門事件，這個用現在來思考，它絕對不會敏感，那個小編大概從來沒有覺得這一件事是那麼重要，就直接跳過去到下一個節目，所以當我們發現不對的時候，他已經往上傳了。我也不曉得這件事情怎麼會被大家想成是自我審查，甚至於說是文化部來審查，這件事情發生在中華民國這個時代，我覺得不可能啦！尤其是我個人過去，從以前到現在，我們言論自由的爭取，到現在怎麼可能發生這個自我審查，而且我覺得甚至於腦袋裡都不應該有自我審查這個東西，因為那是一個屬於威權時代的，所以這件事情純粹是一個技術問題，我也不明白為什麼會吵得這麼嚴重。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實本席要說，三金的獎項都是大家高度重視，但不管是得獎者、不管是頒獎者，他們的言論都應該接受尊重，所以不管是巴奈（Panai）的發言或是高捷的發言，本席都認為不應該有任何人去把他的政治意識型態加諸在別人身上，我想這是應該互相尊重的部分，部長，你可以同意吧？"],["李部長遠：我在現場，我覺得有的時候很奇怪，這個社會很怪，現場有幾位立委也跟我們一起在現場看表演，其實我每次聽到有原住民的歌、有客家語言的歌、有華語的歌、有臺語的歌，大家混在一起會比過去多元，而且歌手變多。我跟你講我當場的感覺，我非常感動，現場聽的觀眾也非常地「嗨」，可是最後會討論的東西是我沒有想像到的，是某個言論怎樣、怎樣，真的憑良心講，在我的經驗中不曾有過。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，很好，言論的部分是一回事。一樣，上禮拜有發生另外一個事件，就是有平面媒體報導說，有中國官媒記者介入臺灣的政論節目，陸委會居然講是協同文化部來查明。請教，一個禮拜過去了，文化部有沒有去查明？"],["李部長遠：這個我們有繼續往下追蹤跟調查……"],["洪委員孟楷：有瞭解現在的狀況嗎？"],["李部長遠：我請正在參與的次長回答。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，平面媒體講的是哪一家電視臺？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，我們現在是依照我們規定的程序進行行政調查，所以我們有兩個對象需要調查，第一個是邀請單位，邀請單位是聯合報；第二個是當事的單位，也就是新華社，因為新華社有兩位記者還在臺灣，所以我們也進行了約訪，我們分別透過發函、聯絡以及邀請，因此這些調查正在進行當中。但也跟委員做個說明，因為這整個調查是跟陸委會協同進行，所以到目前為止我們還在進行當中，這個禮拜結束以前，我想我們對外會有一個比較公開的說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個禮拜以前，對外會有一個公開說明？"],["王次長時思：應該是一個禮拜……"],["洪委員孟楷：今天禮拜三了，所以明天或後天，是不是？"],["王次長時思：一個禮拜以內，我們會儘快，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個禮拜以內？"],["王次長時思：一個禮拜以內。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個禮拜以內？"],["王次長時思：對、對、對，一個禮拜以內。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是已經過去一個禮拜啦！上禮拜發生的事情到現在，本席是想確認，平面媒體報導有講是說真的……因為這種事情如果發生在任何人身上我們都沒有辦法接受，怎麼會有外國的人可以到我們臺灣的新聞電視臺，然後去看，說哪一個政論節目，那被影射的政論節目，有沒有看到，上禮拜它也大動作的聲明，覺得根本不是啊！子虛烏有啊！根本沒有這種事啊！所以行政機關調查到底有沒有確認電視臺有沒有這個情況？"],["王次長時思：目前為止我們還在確認當中，也要跟委員說明，因為我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你們會找那個電視臺來詢問嗎？"],["王次長時思：我們要先從當事人開始，因為我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：當事人是指誰？記者？"],["王次長時思：是指邀請的單位跟駐臺的單位。"],["洪委員孟楷：駐臺的單位就是新華社。"],["王次長時思：新華社。"],["洪委員孟楷：新華社你們詢問了沒？"],["王次長時思：已經約訪了。"],["洪委員孟楷：約訪了？"],["王次長時思：已經約了、已經約了。"],["洪委員孟楷：他們有承認這個事情嗎？"],["王次長時思：還沒說，因為一個禮拜嘛！所以約它，然後跟它約時間，看什麼時候可以來……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經約了，但它還沒有來，是不是？"],["王次長時思：還沒來，對、對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。"],["王次長時思：有在進行中，跟委員報告，因為我們畢竟是行政調查權，並不是司法權，也不是這些範圍的權利。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，部長……"],["李部長遠：因為文化部其實沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你在剛剛的答詢，本席也給你很多時間來回答……"],["李部長遠：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：一樣，就是你講到說現在的臺灣、現在我們中華民國、我們法治社會，我們沒有辦法想像說有人會做這個言語調查、思想調查。一樣的道理，你覺得這樣的一個狀況，因為上禮拜平面媒體指證歷歷啊！大動作。但是我們真的去看裡面，有寫哪一家電視臺嗎？沒有！它沒有寫哪一家電視臺，只有影射；有寫是什麼節目嗎？沒有！但就變成是人人自危啊！好像被潑到髒水的、被影射到的，然後大家就在以訛傳訛，網路上鋪天蓋地，再配合側翼來去帶風向，哇！那個電視臺好像就被帶風向了。","本席沒有要為哪一家電視臺講話，但本席很沒有辦法接受的，就是用這種帶風向式的、以訛傳訛的、故意抹紅的，那一樣的道理啊！我剛剛問了，如果我們行政調查有屬實，因為陸委會要跟文化部持續查明嘛！有屬實，把它給抓出來，該犯什麼法令，國安法還是什麼法，把它揪出來；但沒有屬實，是不是也應該要還相關人等一個公道？部長，什麼時候能夠跟社會大眾來說明清楚？"],["李部長遠：我想剛才講的有涉及到兩個問題，一個就是當時這個消息傳出來之後，它已經不是思想的問題，它是好像有國安問題了，所以它兩個是不同的事情。但是，我們文化部的確是負責發記者證，如果他的行為違反了我們發證的條件，我們可以把他取消，我們的功能是這樣子。因為我們是法治國家，調查也不能深入，我們也沒有司法權，所以也只能非常按照法治的方式來約談他們。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，你們剛剛講一個禮拜內會向國人報告，是不是？"],["李部長遠：是，因為昨天卓院長在另外一個立法院的會議中，他也被問到這件事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：在總質詢的時候啦！"],["李部長遠：對、對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。部長，最後，本席今天也看到這一個新聞，我想召委是臺南人，大家很關注啊！臺南真善美戲院，2018年其實它才剛重新開幕，但是到現在2024年，不過6年的時間，它又再熄燈了。部長，您之前上任的時候，外界給您一個評語，叫做真正懂電影的部長，所以您既然是一個真正懂電影的部長，看到國內電影院這樣子的狀況，不管是現在這個市場越來越萎縮，不管是國片的市場，您有什麼樣的作為能夠更積極地來協助？"],["李部長遠：是的，委員，你問得很好，這也是我最憂心的部分，因為整體電影市場不是因為國片，而是連西片都開始跌，那是因為整個消費方式，大家很少願意走進戲院，整體來講，已經發展出兩種東西，一個是電影院的電影，一個是在Netflix這種平臺上……"],["洪委員孟楷：串流平臺的電影。"],["李部長遠：所以我們作為一個協助臺灣文創事業的單位，其實我們編的預算已經比過去多很多了，像我們跟國發基金申請了100億，已經動用一段時間，最近我才跟國發會再重新開會，希望動用第二個100億。另外，我們的黑潮計畫也跟行政院要了一個專門針對臺灣的文化內容，包括科技、包括電影、包括電視，還有文學等等，也編了100億，以4年來用。所以作為一個文化部長，我唯一能做的就是我們挹注更多的資源，協助他們能夠把整個內容產業抬起來，但是戲院的凋零的確不是一天的事情，就像書店一樣，它隨著消費方式越來越式微，文化部能做的事情就是在我們有限的預算內，包括我個人，這次暑假我答應每部電影都去看，而且我們也答應馬上就要宣布一個文化幣鼓勵大家看國片的政策，我明天就要宣布了，就是鼓勵大家用文化幣去看國片，而且指定就是國片，那個給的點數非常高，就是我做我全力可以做的事情，而且我自己也會每部電影都去看，我覺得有的時候是一個氣氛，就是自己的電影自己看，這一點當然我會盡我所有可能去協助的。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我覺得這是一個大問題啊！本席只是提出一個點，因為過去到現在，我也都在這邊很關心我們的不管是影視產業或是國片的相關發展，但我只提醒兩個點，第一，過去有人感嘆，前幾任部長對於文化的重視，追根究柢到最後都只剩撒錢啦！業界雖然高興，但是影視文化難以扎根啦！這個是媒體報導，對於過去幾任部長的一個講法。所以剛剛雖然聽到你說有兩個計畫，但是本席還是要強調，除了資源投入以外，更重要的是要做什麼。還有第二個部分，商業影片戲劇，當然它們有它們各自的發展，譬如說引進更新的技術、環繞音響、IMAX，或是4DX等等，讓很多追求這些影視娛樂的可以去做。但是另外一個部分，對於真善美戲院它們的定位，可能是文化藝術相關片型，它們缺的可能不只是資源，而是更重要怎麼樣能夠跟國際上不同的電影來結合，更方便的引入，我覺得這才是不同特色戲院應該要求的生存，好不好？後續我們還會再繼續針對這個議題來做討論，本席也會跟您更深入討論，好不好？謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員，謝謝替我們臺南真善美戲院即將熄燈發聲，謝謝。","我們先來確認議事錄，議事錄有無錯誤跟遺漏之處？（無）沒有，好，那議事錄確定。","我們接下來請柯志恩召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-18","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林德福","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","張雅琳","陳秀寳","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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end":166.574,"text":"部長 現在也有看到是說 居然說得獎者上台致詞的部分也有說被這個粉磚給消失那你當然也有受到這個媒體的一個詢問其實本期還是強調重要的影視頒獎典禮得獎者上台致詞就屬於得獎者的"},{"start":166.954,"end":183.313,"text":"我們每一個人都應該要尊重因為榮耀時刻要說什麼就是言論自由嘛那尤其關心國際大事這也是一個高尚人道的一個關懷但是為什麼會在這個情況下還是會讓大家去有一些這種"},{"start":184.71,"end":184.95,"text":"臺灣資深藝人"},{"start":202.418,"end":217.063,"text":"那部長 上一次本席也才這邊才質詢您請教是說如果說用孤寂一詞會不會覺得是不是用大陸用語你那時候講說文化是包容的所以針對這樣子 文化部辦這樣子的一個獎項然後網友這樣討論 您自己怎麼看"},{"start":217.979,"end":234.182,"text":"我覺得我沒有想到這件事情會鬧那麼大的原因是其實每一次的頒獎過去也有完全不會把那個得獎人的得獎即時打出來不管得獎者不管頒獎者他們的言論是不是應該都要尊重"},{"start":234.502,"end":234.862,"text":"帕奈最後講這個天安門事件"},{"start":258.973,"end":258.993,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":277.478,"end":277.938,"text":"其實本席要說"},{"start":306.971,"end":308.412,"text":"我在現場我覺得有的時候很奇怪這個社會很怪"},{"start":333.531,"end":355.762,"text":"現場有幾位立委也跟我們一起在現場看那個表演其實我每次聽到那個有原住民的歌有客家語言的歌有華語的歌然後有台語的歌大家混在一起比過去那個多元而且歌手變多我跟你講我單場的感覺我非常感動那現場聽的觀眾也非常的嗨可是最後會"},{"start":356.783,"end":357.123,"text":"這個我們有繼續玩一下"},{"start":384.848,"end":392.67,"text":"現在有了解現在的狀況嗎來 平面媒體講的是哪一家電視台跟委員報告我們現在是依照我們的規定的程序進行行政調查所以我們兩個對象需要調查第一個就是邀請單位那邀請單位是聯合報那第二個就是這個當事的單位就是新華社那因為新華社還有兩位記者還在台灣所以我們也進行了約訪"},{"start":411.733,"end":414.514,"text":"這個禮拜以前會對對外有一個公開說明今天禮拜三了所以明天或後天是不是這個禮拜以內"},{"start":438.496,"end":453.289,"text":"一個禮拜以內一個禮拜以內但是已經過去一個禮拜啦上禮拜發生的事情到現在那本席只想確認平面媒體報導有講是說真的因為這種事情如果說發生任何人身上我們都沒有辦法接受"},{"start":453.829,"end":472.558,"text":"怎麼會有外國的人可以到我們台灣的新聞電視台然後去看說哪一個政論節目那被影射的政論節目有沒有看到上禮拜他也大動作聲明覺得是說根本不是啊只需烏有啊根本沒有這種事啊那所以說我們行政機關調查到底有沒有確認有沒有電視台"},{"start":473.755,"end":497.217,"text":"有沒有這個情況?目前為止我們還在確認當中那也要跟委員說明所以你們會找那個電視台來詢問嗎?我們要先從當事人開始因為我們進行當事人是指誰?是指邀請的單位跟駐台的單位駐台的單位就新華社新華社那新華社他們邀請你們詢問了沒?"},{"start":498.769,"end":506.731,"text":"已經約訪了那他們有承認這個事情嗎還沒說因為一個禮拜所以約他然後跟他約時間說什麼時候可以來已經約了但他還沒有來還沒來有在進行中那跟委員說因為我們畢竟行政調查權並不是司法權也不是自行的法務的權利部長"},{"start":524.138,"end":551.908,"text":"文化部其實沒有...你剛剛答詢喔本席也給你很多時間來回答那一樣就是說你講到說現在的台灣像我們中華民國我們法治社會我們沒有辦法想像說有人會做這個言語調查思想調查那一樣的道理你覺得這樣的一個狀況因為上禮拜平面媒體他指正立立啊大動作但是我們真的去看裡面有寫哪一家電視台嗎沒有他就寫沒有寫哪一家電視台只有影社"},{"start":552.881,"end":575.226,"text":"那有寫說是什麼節目嗎?沒有,但就變成是說人人自為啊,好像被潑到髒水的,被影射到的,然後大家就在以兒傳兒,然後網路上鋪天蓋地在配合側翼來去帶風向,哇,那一個電視台好像就被帶風向了,本身沒有要為哪一家電視台講話,但本身很沒有辦法接受就是用這種帶風向式的以兒傳兒的故意抹紅的。"},{"start":577.096,"end":596.408,"text":"那一樣的道理啊我剛剛問了如果說我們行政調查有屬實因為陸委會要跟文化部持續查明嘛有屬實把他給抓出來該犯什麼法令國安法還是什麼法把他揪出來但沒有屬實是不是也應該還相關人的一個公道"},{"start":597.108,"end":598.109,"text":"我們的功能是這樣子﹖"},{"start":622.668,"end":626.209,"text":"昨天卓院長在另外一個立法院的那個會議中他也被問到這一題"},{"start":645.276,"end":666.792,"text":"部長最後本席今天也看到這個新聞啊臺南我想朝偉是臺南人啊大家很關注啊真善美戲院2018年其實他才剛重新開幕但是到現在2024年不過6年的時間他又在熄燈了那部長您之前上任的時候外界給您一個評語啊叫做真正懂電影的部長"},{"start":668.195,"end":681.65,"text":"所以您既然是一個真正懂電影部長看到這樣子國內電影院的狀況不管是現在這個市場越來越萎縮不管是國片的一個市場您有什麼樣的一個作為能夠更積極的來協助"},{"start":683.867,"end":704.993,"text":"委員您問得很好這也是我最憂心的部分因為整體的電影市場不是因為國片而是連戲片都開始跌那是因為整個消費方式大家很少願意走進戲院那整體來講已經發展出兩種東西一個是電影院的戲院電影院的電影一個是在Netflix這種平台上算流平台所以我們作為一個"},{"start":708.516,"end":709.156,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":734.567,"end":754.944,"text":"臺灣的文化內容包括科技 包括電影 包括電視 還有文學等等也變了一百億用 四年來用所以作為一個文化部長我唯一能做就是我們預祝更多的資源協助他們能夠把這個整個內容產業抬起來但是西院的凋零的確不是一天的事情"},{"start":755.825,"end":756.425,"text":"主持人李遠列席"},{"start":776.693,"end":776.713,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":796.763,"end":819.841,"text":"部長我覺得這是一個大問題本期只是提出一個點因為過去到現在我也都在這邊很關心我們的不管是影視產業或是國片的相關的發展但我只提醒兩個點第一過去有人感嘆說前幾任部長對於文化的重視其實追根究柢到最後都只剩傻錢業界雖然高興但是影視文化難以紮根這個是媒體報導對於過去幾任部長的一個講法"},{"start":824.184,"end":844.278,"text":"所以剛剛雖然聽到你有講說有兩個計畫但是本期還是要強調除了這個資源投入以外更重要的是要做什麼那還有第二個部分商業影片戲劇當然他們有他們各自的發展譬如說引進更新的技術環繞音響IMAX或是那個"},{"start":845.439,"end":845.839,"text":"我請部長"},{"start":875.02,"end":875.3,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"154474","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154474","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bda837798e35b8db48bbafa62845183024d15f5ccb8d26769bf5a64f546f2578775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:40:13 - 10:48:56","影片長度":"00:08:43","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」案。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案。\n三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:40:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:48:56+08:00","duration":523,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":483,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時40分）謝謝主席，麻煩請外交部還有經濟部兩位次長。"],["陳次長立國：召委好。"],["陳次長正祺：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：兩位次長好。今天我們的議程安排，其中一項是針對中華民國政府部分停止中華民國與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書，原本我們兩國都已經斷交了，所以今天送出這個案來，就是一個形式上的過程，不過剛剛本席聽到相關單位的回答，在這裡要特別跟外交部及經濟部提醒，因為薩爾瓦多在108年3月份就跟我們斷交了，而剛剛你們說FTA還是可以持續，沒有錯吧？"],["陳次長正祺：是的，沒錯。"],["馬委員文君：雖然我們是今天審查，可是你們到112年才提出來，因為屆期不續審，所以今天又提出來。從108年到112年，經過四年時間，在這裡我要特別指出來，雖然FTA可以持續，可是薩爾瓦多跟我們斷交，是他們主動跟我們斷交，結果連FTA我們也要等到人家不要了，才要提出來，這樣我們的國格在哪裡？今天如果沒有辦法再持續的時候，你們就應該當機立斷。針對這個部分，特別在這裡提出來，你們有話要講是不是？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，薩爾瓦多雖然斷交，可是FTA仍持續有效，也就是薩爾瓦多也持續……"],["馬委員文君：那我們為什麼112年提出來？為什麼？是薩爾瓦多不要了，是嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：不是，它持續施行FTA，後來是它的憲法法庭判決之後，它的海關才公布要停止施行……"],["馬委員文君：就是他們停止了嘛！今天如果我們也可以有這樣的主導權，需要等到人家不要了、憲法法庭已經說了，我們才要拿出來在這裡審嗎？這是我今天要特別告訴你們兩個單位的，因為我們不是主動的一直被斷交、一直被斷交，結果你們在其他地方還沒有辦法有主動權！這個部分你們自己去檢討，還要說什麼嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：我只是跟委員報告……"],["馬委員文君：我知道他們可以持續，可是我們不要什麼都是被動的單位，好不好？"],["陳次長正祺：因為我們還有產業利益也是要協調。"],["馬委員文君：人家還在乎你的產業利益嗎……"],["陳次長正祺：我們在乎。"],["馬委員文君：他們112年提出來的時候，你們還不是提出來了，這樣還可以說產業利益嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：在之前……"],["馬委員文君：除非我們有什麼損失，這個部分你們自己去追究，在這裡不要把國格都放在地上踩。在這裡也要特別請教外交部次長，就是中共在上個月底發布了「關於依法懲治『台獨』頑固分子分裂國家、煽動分裂國家犯罪的意見」，威脅要對台獨分裂分子追究刑事責任。剛剛其實也有委員特別提到，陸委會也隨即宣布調升中、港、澳的旅遊警示為橙色，建議民眾非必要時不要去旅行，雖然對於中國大陸是由陸委會去做處置沒有錯，不過對世界各國發布旅遊警訊，主要是外交部的業務，我們各階段旅遊警訊的標準是什麼？參考的條件大概有哪些？"],["陳次長立國：跟委員報告，因為全世界各地隨時都有可能發生比如天災、戰亂、政治上的動盪，或者各種可能，包括恐怖攻擊事件。所以，當然，我們有這個責任、義務去提醒國人，有任何商旅、遊學、觀光、出國必要的時候，我們要給我們的國人一個參考指標。"],["馬委員文君：所以還是有嘛。因為陸委會已經對中共，就是中國的部分，發出這樣的旅遊警示。現在中共宣布我們的台獨分子大概有15位，組織跟企業大概有8家。上週其實也有委員提醒，中國跟55個國家簽署了引渡條款，經本席辦公室查詢，其中大概有39個國家都已經生效了，而且這裡面不乏國人常去的國家，比如像泰國、越南、南韓、南非、法國、義大利等等，總共有39個國家。美國國務院負責東亞跟太平洋事務的助理國務卿康達在上個月底出席眾議院聽證會的時候，其實也曾經說大陸採取升級的舉措，基本上是在境外適用中華人民共和國的法律跟法規。這個會讓我們擔心的是，中共可以使用引渡條約，來要求簽署國引渡被中共認定的台獨分子嗎？政治犯當然沒有辦法這樣認定，政治犯是由簽署國去認定的，可是像這樣子引渡的可能性，你們怎麼判斷？"],["陳次長立國：當然剛剛有很多委員表達對這個議題的關注，我們的第一步當然是說，對於剛剛委員提到的這五十幾個國家，或是已經生效的國家，在旅遊、觀光或是個人目的出訪的時候，可能有這樣的風險，我們當然要提醒，但是委員是不是想問，案例發生時的處置措施？我們目前能夠做的，當然是跟我們理念相近的民主國家合作，有任何個案發生的時候，它也一定要經過一定的程序，我們當然要在這個時間點，在任何案例發生前，就建立一些合作、交流、對話的機制，如果有這樣的案例發生的時候，我們的……"],["馬委員文君：次長，這個時候你再去做交流、合作的機制已經慢了，人家都已經簽署了，現在我們比較擔心的是，它現在在發生當中，就這個部分，我們對中國大陸已經發布了橙色的警戒，對於其他這些相關的國家，有沒有可能發布其他的燈號警戒？橙色大概不可能啦，比如黃燈，會不會？"],["陳次長立國：其實剛剛王召委也有提醒我們，這個我們也會納入在即刻研議當中，除了一般的旅遊警示，因為其他各種原因，比如像剛剛的這種……"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候可以研議出來？"],["陳次長立國：我們儘快。"],["馬委員文君：因為就這個部分，等到發生的時候，就像現在，不管是漁民也好，或者我們的國人出國旅遊也好，就像在帛琉，連我們自己的邦交國，在我們都沒有辦法好好地保護國人的情況之下，如果發生像這樣的引渡事件，其實就會更麻煩了，相信他們對於這樣的對象，它的手段是更直接、更強烈的，我們必須要有事先的因應之道，如果發生了，我們應該要怎麼做，外交部必須要有事先的規劃。"],["陳次長立國：是。"],["馬委員文君：再跟主席借30秒，好不好？"],["陳次長立國：謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：這個部分我還要再詢問一下，外交部委託捷克以第三方援助烏克蘭的部分，這個我們在5月份吳釗燮部長在的時候就已經提到，要提供1,000萬美元捐助給烏克蘭，這個需求的清單出來了沒有？"],["陳次長立國：目前應該是說這個案子還在跟捷方協調當中。"],["馬委員文君：你們當時在這裡公開地說，6月份就會有需求清單，因為你是要緊急去協助他們的需求，結果到現在7月了，這個已經過了很長的時間，你們本來說要提供清單，到現在還在協調，我不知道要協調什麼？先把清單提供給本席還有我們委員會，好不好？"],["陳次長立國：好的。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候可以提供？"],["陳次長立國：我們儘快提供。"],["馬委員文君：儘快是多久？講一個時間，好不好？儘快，因為你5月講儘快，現在又過了一、兩個月啦！"],["主席：馬委員，讓他回去問一下歐洲司什麼狀況，好不好？"],["馬委員文君：沒有、沒有，因為……"],["主席：我們往例都是兩週，給他兩週啦！"],["馬委員文君：主席，沒有，因為之前說兩週，可是可能已經快要兩個月了，一週內，好不好？"],["陳次長立國：我們回去馬上會跟歐洲司這邊……"],["馬委員文君：請主席裁示一週內，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，一週內啦。"],["陳次長立國：好的。"],["主席：如果有不可抗力的狀況，也要讓委員瞭解。"],["馬委員文君：有困難再說嘛。"],["陳次長立國：是。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["陳次長立國：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，各位請回。有關這個部分，請於一週內提供本委員會各委員，如果無法提供，請詳述理由，好不好？請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是洪申翰委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1","speakers":["王定宇","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","羅美玲","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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text":"二、審"},{"start":91.138,"end":111.814,"text":"報告委員,薩爾瓦多因為他雖然斷交,可是FTA持續有效,也就是薩爾瓦多也持續施行...那我們為什麼112年提出來,為什麼?薩爾瓦多不要了,是嗎?不是,他持續施行FTA,那麼後來他的憲法法庭判決之後,他的海關才公佈說他停止施行"},{"start":112.014,"end":132.252,"text":"就是他們停止了嘛今天如果是我們也可以有這樣的主導權你需要等到人家不要了憲法法庭已經說了我們才拿出來這裡審嘛這是我今天要特別告訴兩個單位因為我們不是一直主動一直被斷交一直被斷交結果你在其他的地方還沒有辦法有主動權這個部分你們自己去檢討還要說什麼嗎"},{"start":138.217,"end":145.042,"text":"接下來我知道他們可以持續可是你不要什麼都是在被動的單位好不好因為我們還有產業利益也是要協調是人家還在乎你的產業利益嗎結果他112年提出來的時候你還不是提出來了這樣你還可以說產業利益嗎除非我們有什麼損失這個部分你們自己去追究在這裡不要把國格都放在地上踩"},{"start":168.208,"end":173.714,"text":"在這裡特別也要請教我們外交部次長就是說中共在上個月底它發布了關於依法懲治臺獨頑固分子分裂國家、煽動分裂國家犯罪的意見威脅要對臺獨分裂分子追究刑事責任剛剛其實也有委員都有特別提到所以陸委會也隨即宣布調升"},{"start":192.532,"end":192.913,"text":"一、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":205.219,"end":205.239,"text":"二、審"},{"start":223.075,"end":246.239,"text":"跟委員報告因為全世界各地隨時都有可能發生比如說天災、戰亂政治上的動盪或者說各種可能包括恐怖攻擊事件所以其實當然我們必須有這個責任義務去提醒國人有任何商旅、遊學、觀光出國的必要的時候我們要給我們的國人這樣的一個參考指標所以還是有嘛那因為陸委會已經對"},{"start":249.932,"end":266.67,"text":"中共．中國的部分發出這樣的旅遊警示那像我們現在因為中共宣布的臺獨分子大概有15位那組織跟企業大概有8家上週其實有委員提醒中國跟55個國家簽署了引渡條款"},{"start":269.392,"end":282.198,"text":"其中大概有39個國家,它都是已經生效了,而且這裡面不乏國人常去的國家比如說像泰國、越南、南韓、南非、法國、義大利等等,總共有39個國家,而且依據美國國務院"},{"start":285.72,"end":309.316,"text":"負責東亞跟太平洋事務助理國務卿康達上個月底其實他在出席眾議院聽政會的時候也曾經說大陸採取升級的舉措基本上是在境外適用中華人民共和國的法律跟法規那這個也會讓我們擔心的是中共可以使用引渡條約來要求簽署國引渡被中共認定的台獨份子嗎?"},{"start":314.56,"end":324.612,"text":"政治犯當然沒有辦法這樣認定政治犯是由簽署國去認定的可是像這樣子的引渡的可能性你們怎麼判斷?"},{"start":327.395,"end":351.855,"text":"目前當然我們剛剛有很多委員在這個議題上的關注我們第一步應該當然是說對於剛剛委員提到這50幾個國家或是說已經生下的國家在出去這個其他旅遊的時候觀光或是個人目的的出訪可能有這樣的風險我們要當然提醒但是委員是想說會不會案例發生的時候的處置措施那我們目前能夠做當然是要跟至少"},{"start":352.315,"end":352.335,"text":"二、審"},{"start":381.187,"end":381.207,"text":"二、審"},{"start":392.892,"end":411.834,"text":" ﹗"},{"start":411.834,"end":434.718,"text":" ﹗"},{"start":436.079,"end":447.544,"text":"我還要再詢問一下外交部委託捷克與第三方援助烏克蘭的部分這個我們在五月份吳釗燮部長在的時候就已經提到提供一千萬美元捐助給烏克蘭這個需求的清單出來了沒有目前我們應該是說這個案子還在跟解放在協調當中"},{"start":459.252,"end":467.295,"text":"你們當時在這裡公開的說在6月份其實就會有需求清單因為你是要緊急去協助他們的需求結果你到現在7月的這個已經過了很長的時間你們本來說要提供清單到現在還在協調我不知道要協調什麼先把清單提供給本席還有我們委員會好不好什麼時候可以提供"},{"start":484.738,"end":485.579,"text":"我們盡快提供。"},{"start":500.277,"end":521.093,"text":"因為之前說兩週可是可能已經快兩個月了那我們一週內好不好先主席好不好主席才是一週內謝謝如果有不可抗力狀況有困難再說嘛好謝謝馬文君委員各位請回有關這個部分請於一週內提供本委員會各委員那如果無法提供請詳述理由"}]}},{"id":"154472","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154472","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd146349cab82dfcdcbbafa62845183024d15f5ccb8d26769bdcfa479eaf0f6b1a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:33:08 - 10:40:04","影片長度":"00:06:56","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」案。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案。\n三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:33:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:40:04+08:00","duration":416,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時33分）好，謝謝主席，先請漁業署張署長。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：來，署長請。"],["張署長致盛：委員早。"],["賴委員瑞隆：署長，先請教你，昨天中國海警登上我們的漁船，還把他們給押回去，我先請問一下，這個漁船作業的水域到底可不可以捕撈、可不可以作業？"],["張署長致盛：他作業的區域是兩岸重疊的水域……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以是可以在那邊作業的？"],["張署長致盛：對，過去我們的船也在那裡作業，而昨天在那個地方作業的除了這艘漁船以外，其實還有其他的漁船也在那裡作業。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以過去也從來沒有這樣的狀況？"],["張署長致盛：這幾年都沒有相關的案例。"],["賴委員瑞隆：恐怕連驅離都沒有驅離，對不對？更何況是把他帶回去，所以這是一個很異常的動作嘛？"],["張署長致盛：我想不管什麼，昨天這樣的動作都會造成漁民的不安，也影響漁民的作業。"],["賴委員瑞隆：以往有沒有發生過這樣的事情？"],["張署長致盛：欸！沒有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：沒有發生過這樣……"],["張署長致盛：近年來沒有這樣的案例。"],["賴委員瑞隆：從來沒有發生這個事情，所以我說這是一個異常的狀況，就是正常來說不應該發生，但是卻發生了。我再請問，過往以來，不管是臺灣這邊或是中國那邊，一般針對漁船部分，大多數也都是採用驅離，對不對？臺灣有沒有……"],["張署長致盛：一般是廣播驅離。"],["賴委員瑞隆：廣播驅離嘛！臺灣有沒有把越境捕撈的漁船抓回來過？"],["張署長致盛：這個詳細執行是在海巡。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我問你有沒有？署長，據你所瞭解的，多不多？"],["張署長致盛：我所瞭解的是有這樣的案例，但會先驅離，如果驅離……"],["賴委員瑞隆：不多嘛！這絕對是一個特殊案例。"],["張署長致盛：通常就是驅離，如果沒有辦法驅離，就是屢勸不聽的話，才會做後續的動作。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以即使有，也是在驅離、屢勸不聽的狀況下，才會把船給帶回，對不對？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：更何況他們在帶回的時候，我們的人已經趕過去了，也在關心這樣的狀況，所以我也認為這是個異常動作，一般來說，這還是重疊水域，就算是入侵到相關水域，頂多就是驅離，臺灣多數也都是用驅離的。"],["張署長致盛：是，在海域上作業有一定的程序。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在他們已經把人跟船扣回去了，接下來，就算真的有爭議，一般會怎麼處理？"],["張署長致盛：我們會透過陸委會跟大陸那邊來瞭解情形，後續協商的部分，當然我們希望人跟船能夠儘速釋放。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我的意思是說，即使越域到了對方的作業區域，然後被帶回，過去相關的處理是怎麼樣？罰款嗎？還是有什麼樣的處置？"],["張署長致盛：過去臺灣的漁船有發生比如到印尼或馬來西亞等相關水域，如果有被認為入侵水域，而又屬實的話，通常是罰款。"],["賴委員瑞隆：罰款嘛！就是用罰款，罰款後應該人跟船就放回了，對不對？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我們後續靜待這個事情的處理，其實光是能不能罰款都具有高度爭議，因為這是一個大家都可以作業的水域……"],["張署長致盛：是，所以我們希望中國大陸務實處理，不要為難漁民。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就不要為難漁民，在正常狀況下，其實應該趕快把人放回來，因為這是在大家共同可作業的一個水域；就算最惡劣的狀況，罰款也都能解決事情，更沒有理由把人跟船不斷扣下來，是吧？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：儘快，好不好？希望農業部、外交部跟相關單位要儘快去協調溝通，其實大家要相互克制、相互尊重，如果有過當的一些行為，恐怕會引起臺灣人民的反彈跟不滿，同時也會引起國際對這個地方局勢的緊張，質疑是不是刻意製造事端來製造兩岸的緊張關係？"],["張署長致盛：對，我們希望真的不要為難漁民，漁民非常的辛苦，為難漁民沒有意義，而且雙方要務實來討論解決這個問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。接下來我要請問有關今天我們要處理的協定部分，我們現在的漁業管理，其實都符合相關協定，對不對？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為看起來我們對IUU本來就是強制的，更不可能去補貼它，這是必然的嘛！"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那我要請問，這個協定通過對我們的漁業會產生任何一些影響嗎？"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告，根據我們初步評估，這裡面很多相關法規我們都已經在執行了，而且我們漁民也都遵守這些相關法規，所以初步認為，在第一階段的這個漁業補貼協議通過以後，對我們的漁業不會造成影響。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不會產生影響？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，OK，謝謝，署長請回。","接下來我請外交部陳次長。次長，我先問一下，現在我們的邦交國狀況怎麼樣？"],["陳次長立國：邦交國的狀況穩定。"],["賴委員瑞隆：都穩定？"],["陳次長立國：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我看到最近從賴清德總統上任之後，中國這邊有很多不友善的行為，所以對於邦交國的狀況，還是希望你們可以持續注意。"],["陳次長立國：謝謝委員關心，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：剩最後一點時間，我再問一下，前陣子大家都高度關注駐美大使俞大的一些事情，外交部內部討論過、瞭解、調查過了嗎？"],["陳次長立國：最近的一次外委會會議裡，我們外交部林部長也都有做過很多說明，現在這個調查程序還在進行當中。"],["賴委員瑞隆：屬不屬實？這裡面提到包括花了800萬公費，後來俞大使有對外說明並沒有這樣的事情，包括所謂什麼砸重金買床、買沙發、買咖啡機等等，都強調並不是，根據你們初步調查，到底有沒有這樣的事實？"],["陳次長立國：應該是說沒有像週刊報導的那麼多，有八百多萬，其實數字應該比那個還要少。"],["賴委員瑞隆：喔！比較少。部長提到暫時不會做停職調查，對不對？"],["陳次長立國：這是部長說的，是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這是外交部目前的態度。我要講的是，駐美大使對臺灣相當重要，是一個很重要、相當重要的職務，但這樣的一個報導，其實對駐美大使、對臺美關係都會有相當影響，所以我們希望外交部儘速說明和澄清，真有問題，該怎麼辦就怎麼辦，如果沒有問題，也要儘速還這位大使清白，不然時間拖太長，對我們整個外交形象、對臺美關係，我認為都會有一定影響。"],["陳次長立國：是的，外交部會在時間內提交報告。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個要儘快，時間上最晚是兩週，但我認為應該提早完成，因為並不困難，事實查證並不困難，越早能夠把事實真相澄清，迅速、果斷處理，該還清白的還清白，有問題該處理就處理，這樣才能夠讓大家對整個駐美大使的狀況以及對外交更加具有信心，好不好？"],["陳次長立國：謝謝委員的建議，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員，次長請回。","接下來進行詢答委員是馬文君召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1","speakers":["王定宇","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","羅美玲","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","林楚茵","林憶君","賴瑞隆","馬文君","洪申翰","陳冠廷","蔡易餘","黃仁","林岱樺","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」\n案；二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共\n和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案；三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共\n和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協\n定」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.4653437500000002,"end":2.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.185968750000001,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.759718750000001,"end":8.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.72409375,"end":20.449718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.449718750000002,"end":20.500343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.922218750000003,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.02346875,"end":24.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.97221875,"end":25.292843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.292843750000003,"end":25.309718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.309718750000002,"end":25.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.32659375,"end":32.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.31284375,"end":35.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.759718750000005,"end":36.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.77221875,"end":43.095968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.27721875,"end":50.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.60534375,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.65596875,"end":52.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.596593750000004,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.27159375,"end":54.587843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.094093750000006,"end":61.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.52846875,"end":56.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.181593750000005,"end":62.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.62034375,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.49221875,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.50909375,"end":74.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.56784375000001,"end":75.79971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.79971875000001,"end":75.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.81659375000001,"end":79.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.57971875,"end":82.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.41471875,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.87846875000001,"end":94.54784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.02159375000001,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.05846875,"end":99.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.74534375,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.03221875000001,"end":106.56284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.02784375,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.76534375,"end":113.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.26221875,"end":121.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.86846875,"end":125.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.81721875000001,"end":125.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.27284375,"end":136.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.19096875,"end":148.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.77159375000002,"end":159.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.58409375000002,"end":172.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.96596875,"end":177.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.01596875,"end":177.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.23534375,"end":185.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.30159375000002,"end":188.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.31846875000002,"end":185.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.38971875000001,"end":204.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.25221875000003,"end":204.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.28596875000002,"end":204.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.80909375000002,"end":221.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.49846875,"end":226.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.72971875000002,"end":234.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.28971875000002,"end":248.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.47409375,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.09346875000003,"end":248.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.93721875000003,"end":253.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.03784375,"end":268.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.93846875,"end":269.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.74846875000003,"end":269.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.59221875000003,"end":273.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.24471875,"end":283.868468750000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10:33:02","影片長度":"00:08:48","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」案。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案。\n三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:24:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:33:02+08:00","duration":528,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":373,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時24分）謝謝主席，麻煩漁業署署長。"],["主席：有請漁業署。"],["張署長致盛：召委早。"],["王委員定宇：署長，辛苦了！我有幾個問題要請教你，希望清晰、明瞭的讓國人瞭解。我們澎湖籍的漁船「大進滿88號」在金門外面的海域、距離中國晉江深滬外大概11.2浬的地方被登檢，我的第一個問題是，這個地方是不是我們漁民傳統作業的漁場？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["王委員定宇：這個漁場跟中國的海域有重疊嘛？"],["張署長致盛：是，因為兩岸之間本來就有很多海域是重疊的……"],["王委員定宇：特別金門那裡是重疊的？"],["張署長致盛：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以你如果用12浬的領海來算，其實兩邊是有重疊的地方。"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["王委員定宇：在重疊的地方，我第二個要問的是，在那個地方作業的漁船不會只有這一艘「大進滿88號」，就你的瞭解，我國國籍的漁船在那個水域進行捕撈的大概有多少艘？"],["張署長致盛：從昨天的AIS這些資訊來看，當時應該有5、6艘。"],["王委員定宇：AIS就是船舶的識別標誌嘛？"],["張署長致盛：對，我們大多用AIS掌握航跡，昨天大概有5、6艘船隻在那邊……"],["王委員定宇：昨天有5、6艘啦，但是我們大概有多少漁船會去那邊作業？"],["張署長致盛：長期有在作業的船隻，我們可能還要再統計一下，不過我要強調的就是，那個區域本來就是我們很多漁民在作業……"],["王委員定宇：署長，坦白講，我岳父是討海的，你們不可以到現在還沒有那個數字，都已經出事情了！我現在要瞭解說，現在是抓小卷的季節嘛！不同的季節是撈捕不一樣的東西，所以在那裡作業的漁船數量到底有多少？澎湖籍或者其他港口的，你們到現在還沒有這個數據嗎？"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告，不同時期會有不同漁船……"],["王委員定宇：對，所以我就說，那裡既然是傳統的重疊水域，過去都沒有事情，這次為什麼出這個事情？我們的漁民要不要被警告，或者被保護，或者海巡署要增加變5艘、6艘？這樣的增加會不會造成這個水域的緊張局勢升高？這個是我們跨部會要瞭解的部分。","我第三個要請教的是，就你目前掌握的資訊，大進滿88號有沒有違反我國或國際相關的捕撈、水域作業的法令？"],["張署長致盛：依我們目前所掌握的狀況，這個漁船並沒有違反我國相關的法令。"],["王委員定宇：好，也就是說，那裡是重疊的作業漁場。第二個，我們滿多艘漁船傳統都在那邊作業，不是只有大進滿。"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["王委員定宇：然後第三，大進滿88號並沒有違反我國以及國際相關作業的法令。所以第四個要請教，在你們掌握的狀況下，從過去到現在有沒有發生過類似這樣的情形？就是我們的船隻好好地在那邊抓魚、討海，以前都在這邊作業，結果就莫名其妙被這樣逮捕、押回去了，它還押回軍港，圍頭是軍港，過去有沒有類似的案例？"],["張署長致盛：最近幾年並沒有相關的案例。"],["王委員定宇：以前沒有類似的案例？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["王委員定宇：這是昨天晚上8點發生的，到目前為止，我相信跨部會討論應該有你們參與在內，你們研判為什麼會發生這個事情？它現在的解釋是，因為是伏魚期間什麼的，但坦白講，如果我國船隻侵入人家領海，就像他們的船隻侵入我們澎湖的領海，該抓就抓，這個違反法律我沒有話講。可是那個地方，我剛剛問下來，其實是重疊海域、作業海域，過去都有多艘漁船在那邊作業，為什麼這時候發生這樣的事情？"],["張署長致盛：我們不去臆測原因，但是我還是要強調，我們不希望中國大陸為難我們的漁民。"],["王委員定宇：關於營救的方式，因為剛才有其他委員提到，我特別請外交部、漁業署、海巡或者是我們相關的陸委會等等，儘快讓我們的漁民回來，這個是非常重要的。"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["王委員定宇：你們兩位先請回，我們請外交部次長。次長，我現在請教你一個問題，這個問題其實滿簡單的。中國不管是在去年7月份的反間諜法，那個是全部都外國人，包含臺灣，還有美國、加拿大、澳洲人都有這個風險喔！"],["陳次長立國：是。"],["王委員定宇：美國商業部在去年就警告說「危邦不入」，翻成中文是這樣子，它去年就發布公告，美國去年就公告，沒事就不要去，投資不要去，旅遊不要去，反間諜法是針對所有人，沒有理由就可以把你扣押，可以查。另外他們的保守國家秘密法，是在這個禮拜發生的，開始可以搜查手機、筆電等等，當然對臺灣還有22條懲治台獨可以缺席審判、最高判死刑等等。我們都知道去中國可能會有不確定風險，這個不確定風險的意思就是，人人都有風險，也許有人會說：不會！沒有那麼倒楣，不會是我。這就有點像疫情，COVID-19死亡率0.5%、0.3%，好像不是大家都會死，但是那個風險叫不確定風險，所以大家都呼籲要打疫苗嘛！因此交通部就發布到中國的旅遊警示，美國也發布旅遊警示，韓國更特別，韓國CIA（國情院）也發布旅遊警示，日本今天在討論要不要發布旅遊警示，這個是指去中、港、澳的旅遊警示。","我現在請問你一個問題──引渡風險，其實我剛剛問漁船那個，中國也公布新的海警法，現在正跟菲律賓在衝突，只要它認為你有可能犯罪，它就可以登船把你抓回去，我懷疑這一次這個澎湖籍漁船被逮捕，跟海警法的實行有關係，但是這個我們要看後續發展，因為他們在菲律賓做了這樣的事情，在重疊海域把漁船抓回去，所以現在菲律賓的漁民、人民是在中國大使館前面包圍抗議。","所以這些綜合起來，我要請教外交部，當然你說出國旅遊，大家自己要小心、注意風險，但是外交部對旅遊的警示是不是要增加一個引渡風險？對於政治性的刑罰，各國基本上是不引渡的，政治罪名不引渡，歐盟的話是該國有死刑的，它不引渡，所以目前就外交部的評估，中國這種蠻橫的惡法，我們當然可以不去那裡，但第三地、第三國的引渡風險有還是沒有？高還是低？"],["陳次長立國：這部分其實在我們之前，不管是相關的新聞稿或者在譴責以及希望理念相近國家、民主國家來共同反制中國那些破壞國際法、破壞區域穩定的行為，是大家要一起來面對的。像您剛剛舉的菲律賓或是其他國家已經有對於去中國旅遊警示的問題，其實跟中國有引渡條約或是司法互助的國家也不在少數，所以委員剛剛所建議的部分，我們一定會在整個國安體系，包括外交及其他一起……"],["王委員定宇：今天因為時間的關係，外交部跟交通部要儘速，就第三國、第三地引渡風險列警示，如果沒有，就正式說沒有，最好還是有理念相近國家公開說，中國這種法，我們不吃這一套。這個要國際合作，這個外交部責無旁貸。","我最後用這張圖卡來謝謝你們，因為我一直在找機會，這個國人回到臺灣後，一直請我跟外交部說謝謝，你們做了一件好事情。新喀里多尼亞，這個連名字都很難念，很多人都不知道這在哪裡，這是法國的屬地。"],["陳次長立國：是的。"],["王委員定宇：這個法國屬地經三次公投，他們都不想獨立，他們都想做法國屬地，最近法國為了讓它脫離，還修改投票辦法，就造成新喀里多尼亞大暴動，我們的國人深陷在那裡，結果他們聯絡外交部，竟然外交部還可以統籌我們其他駐處，我想會去那邊旅遊的人也是滿特別的，你們把他救出來了，而且不只救了他，還整合了相關資源救了一群人，這一群人聯絡本席，請本席感謝外交部統合外交資源，讓國人脫離那個地方的險境，因為那個暴動非常的混亂，我特別用這張圖卡感謝外交部駐外同仁的辛苦，謝謝。"],["陳次長立國：好，謝謝委員，這是我們應該做的，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請賴瑞隆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1","speakers":["王定宇","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","羅美玲","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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圍頭是軍港你最近幾年並沒有相關的案例以前沒有類似的案例那你們昨天晚上八點發生的到目前為止我相信發布會討論應該有你們參與在內你們研判為什麼會發生這個事情"},{"start":207.165,"end":229.7,"text":"他現在解釋是說這個是因為浮魚期間啊什麼的那坦白講如果我國的船隻侵入人家領海就像他們的船隻侵入我們澎湖的領海該抓就抓這個違反法律我沒有話講可是那個地方我該問下來其實重疊海域作業海域過去都有多少漁船在那邊作業為什麼這時候發生這個事情"},{"start":231.689,"end":252.803,"text":"我們不去預測原因,但是我想還是要強調,我們不希望中國大陸為難我們的漁民。那營救的方式,因為剛剛有其他委員,我特別請外交部以及我們漁業署還有海巡或者是我們相關的陸委會等等,盡快讓我們漁民回來,這個是非常重要的。你們兩位先請回,我們請外交部次長。"},{"start":254.98,"end":276.698,"text":"市長我現在請教你一個問題這個問題其實蠻簡單的中國不管是在去年7月份的反間諜法那是全部的外國人包含台灣美國、加拿大、澳洲人都有這個風險美國在美國的商業部在去年就警告說違邦不入翻成中國是這樣的他去年就發布公告美國去年就公告了沒問題"},{"start":278.039,"end":300.565,"text":"投資標趣、旅遊標趣反間諜法是針對所有人沒有理由就可以去把你扣押可以查然後呢另外他們的保守國家秘密法另外在剛剛這個禮拜發生的開始可以搜查手機、筆電等等當然對台灣還有22條這個台獨可以缺席審辦最高死刑等等我們都知道"},{"start":301.445,"end":301.605,"text":"二、審二、審"},{"start":315.572,"end":341.88,"text":"死亡率0.5、0.3好像不是大家都會死但是那個風險叫不確定風險所以大家都呼籲要打疫苗嘛所以交通部就發布了到中國的旅遊的警示美國也發布旅遊的警示韓國更特別韓國CIA就是國情院也發布旅遊的警示日本今天在討論要不要發布旅遊的警示好這個是指去中港澳的旅遊警示我現在請問你一個問題引渡風險是"},{"start":345.811,"end":345.871,"text":"我懷疑"},{"start":360.913,"end":360.933,"text":"二、審"},{"start":382.233,"end":401.959,"text":"當然你說我們出國旅遊大家自己要小心注意風險但是外交部對旅遊的警示是不是要增加一個引渡風險基本上政治性的刑罰各國基本上是不引渡的政治罪名不引渡那歐盟的話是該國有死刑的他不引渡"},{"start":403.416,"end":423.594,"text":"所以目前就外交部的評估中國這種蠻橫的惡法我們當然可以不去那裡但第三地第三國的引渡風險有還是沒有高還是低這一部分其實在我們之前不管相關新聞稿或者說在譴責以及希望理念相信國家民主國家來共同反制中國這些破壞國際法"},{"start":424.275,"end":424.295,"text":"二、審"},{"start":444.055,"end":468.417,"text":"時間的關係外交部跟交通部要禁訴就第三國第三地引渡風險列警示如果沒有就正式說沒有最好還是由理念相近國家公開說中國這種法我們不吃這一套這個要國際合作這個外交部責無旁貸我最後這張圖卡謝謝你們一下因為我一直要找機會這一個國人回到臺灣一直請我跟外交部謝謝你們做了一件好事情"},{"start":469.839,"end":491.216,"text":"這個新克里多尼亞這個名字都很難念很多人不知道在哪裡這個是法國的屬地法國屬地呢三次公投他們都不想獨立他們都想做法國屬地最近法國為了讓他脫離還修改投票辦法就造成新克里多尼亞大暴動我們的國人先陷在那裡結果他們聯絡外交部"},{"start":492.341,"end":492.521,"text":"接下來請賴瑞隆委員"}]}},{"id":"154465","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154465","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd52e939bc4e1790d6916d49e9c2c49f91d15f5ccb8d26769bb328fc7562c8dfc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:15:39 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再而三再談可是還是要來談大家都知道我們現在就是搶工"},{"start":36.334,"end":63.182,"text":"國內搶工 還跟其他國家去搶工那日本呢事實上從1993年之後他用技能實習的這樣的一個方式然後再配合移民政策然後一共大概高達70萬那今年呢再度的大量演進將近增加到80萬那當然韓國也不遑多讓也就是說他們大概因為採職聘制度呢大概現在已經有160萬人"},{"start":64.977,"end":89.04,"text":"那我們如果今天即便台應的MOU簽下去也會先小規模的只增加1000人我相信各位剛剛已經一直在聽到53萬53萬即便53萬的人都不會用的話那大概5萬就好那我們也是造成很大的問題所以不是振芬老師不行因為這有一點問題"},{"start":89.755,"end":90.055,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":108.312,"end":119.318,"text":"整個實施到今年4月的話8個月以來大概申請的看護的人6.2萬當中其中有3.2萬事實上是用多元免貧"},{"start":120.031,"end":120.231,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":144.057,"end":170.266,"text":"我本來對這個就有疑慮就是放寬這個資格的時候基本上只要使用長照6個月每個月只要使用一次就符合這個標準那換句話就是重度需求者為了聘僱的話未來事實上是會把價錢跌得更高所以在這種狀況底下就一共的人數有限我們現在只有23萬在我們的看護"},{"start":172.499,"end":200.261,"text":"剛才蘇清泉委員講說大概如果以這樣的價錢一個家庭要付到40萬他認為不會有人去可是我要講移工在人數有限的狀況底下這個工資事實上是會跌高在疫情期間的話我有朋友他在學當學當老師他因為要照顧媽媽然後要找移工5萬塊聘不到人"},{"start":201.458,"end":229.217,"text":"抱歉那這樣子就是80萬不是那個蘇委員講的40萬而已另外一個重度需求者會留不住移工也聘不到人那我最擔心的應該是因為我不管在過去民間我們在基金會工作或我剛進立法院的時候碰到一個狀況就是年輕人來上班一個月兩個月他說他要回家因為爸爸中風或者是媽媽住院"},{"start":229.878,"end":257.799,"text":"為什麼犧牲他因為他事實上是收入最低的他就是剛出來社會三萬塊啊為什麼不是犧牲哥哥姊姊因為哥哥姊姊薪水最高可是我們國家如果栽培一個碩士然後呢甚至大學然後呢結果他因為要這樣回家他這樣回家只要一年就好他重出社會他非常多的事業可能這個都應該要去"},{"start":259.089,"end":259.149,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":269.226,"end":269.446,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":295.382,"end":295.803,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":308.237,"end":308.377,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":338.165,"end":338.686,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":362.383,"end":362.443,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":389.728,"end":417.188,"text":"這個大概是一個歷史脈絡可是我們認為私人聘僱跟公共照顧應該是互補的怎麼說呢 下一頁是不是移工長照這個照顧雙軌制應該互相跨越當然現在目前本來希望有 要有可是後來就我們的政府部門不認為需要後來那大家目前現在已經事實上可以用到所謂的"},{"start":417.935,"end":418.055,"text":"主席"},{"start":431.872,"end":460.335,"text":"八十亮表還是八十歲為什麼這麼講所以我剛剛還非常贊成錦林秘書長講的就是說我們應該就是來討論那個很難用的而不是一直在講八十歲以上全部免聘應該是我們去檢討八十亮表才不會衝擊到我們的移工的照顧政策裏面否則雖然剛剛提說五十三萬不一定會聘"},{"start":460.816,"end":489.053,"text":"可是有情的不一定不會聘這個是讓我們擔心那就會造成年輕人跟長輩的關係有錢的人聘了他就把長輩80歲反正我也不用怕他在家裡會不會跌倒啦我以後就丟給這個我們的移工還有事實上我也非常贊成前面有幾位專家學者講的也就是剝奪老人生活的能力本來我80歲好好的所有的我的事情現在都有移工來"},{"start":490.128,"end":490.348,"text":"林月琴議員"}]}},{"id":"154464","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154464","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdb57ae59ab6c7b04bbbafa62845183024d15f5ccb8d26769bdedd539b0ca9d38a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:16:50 - 10:24:06","影片長度":"00:07:16","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」案。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案。\n三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:16:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:24:06+08:00","duration":436,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時16分）主席好，有請外交部次長還有經濟部次長。"],["主席：來，兩位次長。"],["陳次長立國：委員早安。"],["陳次長正祺：委員早。"],["林委員憶君：早安，請問外交部，無論是由於內部還是外部的因素，目前我們臺美關係是不是史上最好的關係呢？"],["陳次長立國：堅若磐石。"],["林委員憶君：請問外交部，在2018年的時候，美國對於包括臺灣在內的許多國家施加了鋼鋁關稅，在2018年之後的幾年間，美國已經陸續的延長，還有完全豁免對歐盟、日本、韓國、墨西哥及加拿大等國家的鋼鋁關稅，既然現在臺美關係是史上最好的關係，那究竟還有什麼理由不能要求美國撤銷對我們的鋼鋁關稅呢？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，關於這件事情，我們跟行政院的經貿談判辦公室有合作，一直在跟美方討論這件事情，因為美國在目前的整個思潮上面，對於鋼、鋁認為跟它的就業有很大的關係，像日本、韓國、墨西哥、加拿大這些國家是因為有FTA，所以他們在那個平臺上來討論，歐盟跟他們是在前幾年才達成一個雙方協議，因為歐盟有對它報復，那麼他們彼此之間有達成一個協議。至於我國的部分，我們還是儘量在說服美國說這樣對它來講是損人不利己，所以我們希望美國也能夠撤除對我們的關稅，不過這個可能需要看整個國際局勢的發展然後來跟美方討論。"],["林委員憶君：好，因為據我瞭解，今年5月美國已經宣布對中國大陸的鋼鋁製品、起重機還有半導體等加徵高關稅，尤其是對鋼鋁產品的關稅從7.5%提高到25%，那美國現在是汽車和飛機製造大國，對鋼鋁製品的需求非常大，所以其實這一次美國提高對中國的關稅，是不是就等於美國飛機和汽車製造業者從中國進口鋼鋁製品的成本就會增加，對不對？"],["陳次長正祺：是的。"],["林委員憶君：所以問題來了，現在美國為了要確保他們自己國家的國防產業和鋼鋁製品的供應鏈，不會因為政治因素而受到干擾，所以開始提倡所謂的友岸外包，那現在不就正好是臺灣向美國提議免除鋼鋁關稅的最好時機嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：事實上，我們一直在跟美國討論這件事情，因為美方是我們臺灣的第二大貿易夥伴，雙方的貿易關係千絲萬縷，很多地方都需要進一步來討論，像現在在討論的21世紀貿易倡議協定，這個部分也是一個很好的平臺，大家都可以很好地在上面來交換意見，也不限於鋼鋁而已。"],["林委員憶君：好，其實鋼鋁產業是高污染、高耗能產業，但是問題是想要推動一個國家朝強大的工業發展，在短期內鋼鋁產業其實還是很難被取代的，有一個重要性，所以請經濟部和經判辦公室一起努力，畢竟我們在免除鋼鋁關稅上真的是已經落後其他國家太多了，好不好？"],["陳次長正祺：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。然後再請外交部和法務部，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員楚茵代）：有請法務部。"],["林委員憶君：在上週五6月28號印尼開始逮捕了103名在印尼峇里島從事網路詐騙的臺灣人，這個規模算是很大的組織，那本席想要請教一下法務部，根據媒體報導，外交部曾對外說明，經印尼方清查以後，這103名嫌犯都是臺灣籍的，這些臺灣人在印尼做網路詐騙，但是受害的卻是馬來西亞的華人，因為印尼當局沒有辦法對這一群詐騙犯進行指控，所以很快就想要把他們驅逐出境，請問臺灣跟印尼目前有沒有司法互助的協定和協議呢？"],["陳調部辦事檢察官思荔：臺灣目前跟印尼……"],["林委員憶君：你代表法務部來備詢，你怎麼會答不出來呢？你應該要非常的瞭解，因為你是代表法務部來備詢。"],["陳次長立國：報告委員，目前跟印尼沒有。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。在2017年8月有一批大陸人和臺灣人組成一個電信詐騙集團，後來在印尼被逮捕，然後送往中國大陸，但是在這個期間我們外交部駐印尼的代表有把22名臺灣人裡面的4名攔下來，依照國籍遣返原則遣送到臺灣，然後接受調查和審判。現在我想要請教法務部，這一次我們是不是也會循著這樣的方法把這些詐騙犯遣返臺灣呢？還是因為放棄國家主權的問題，把他們全部送往嚴峻的中國處分呢？據你們瞭解，北京當局現在有沒有要求印尼一定要把這些詐騙犯全部遣送到中國去呢？還是這103位詐騙犯都會被遣返回臺灣呢？"],["陳調部辦事檢察官思荔：對於這個部分，我們這邊也會盡努力循以往的方式讓這些犯罪的人回到臺灣來受審，這當然是我們一直以來努力的目標，那就北京那邊是否已經發表這樣的意見，我們還在瞭解中，謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：好，如果像剛才你說的，他們回到臺灣的話，我想再請問一下，在103位詐騙犯全部遣送回來臺灣的前提之下，根據2016年通過的刑法修正案，把刑法第三百三十九條之四的加重詐欺罪納入國外犯罪也適用，這樣的話，臺灣人在國外從事電信詐騙，是不是司法機關仍然會依照這樣的刑法來處罰呢？我這樣的理解對嗎？"],["陳調部辦事檢察官思荔：是。"],["林委員憶君：OK。因為時間到了，最後還是呼籲一下法務部，現在臺灣的詐騙，其實臺灣的民眾都深受其害，還有這些詐騙集團也跑到其他國家從事詐騙，所以這個案件越來越多，會嚴重影響到臺灣的國際聲譽，甚至其他國家在開放臺灣免簽的時候，也會再三地考慮，也會影響到臺灣和鄰近國家正常的商務往來，所以請法務部對境外詐騙事件一定要有效的整合各種機制，還有確實的防制，好嗎？"],["陳調部辦事檢察官思荔：我們在努力中，謝謝委員。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請王定宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1","speakers":["王定宇","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","羅美玲","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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以尤其是對鋼鋁產品的話它關稅已從7.5%提高到25%所以請問一下那美國現在是汽車和飛機製造大國嗎?"},{"start":129.827,"end":129.847,"text":"二、審"},{"start":148.868,"end":149.128,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":162.856,"end":186.016,"text":"事實上我們一直在跟美國討論這件事情因為美方的跟臺灣的他是我們的第二大貿易夥伴雙方的貿易關係千絲萬縷很多地方都需要進一步來討論現在在討論的這個21世紀貿易協定倡議這個部分也是一個很好的平台在上面大家都可以很好的來交換意見也不限於綱領而已"},{"start":187.917,"end":210.122,"text":"所以其實鋼鋁產業其實是高污染高耗能產業但是問題是想要推動一個國家朝強大的工業的發展短期內鋼鋁產業其實是還是很難被取代的有一個重要性所以請經濟部和金盼的辦公室一起努力畢竟我們在免除鋼鋁關係上真的是已經落後其他國家太多了好不好是謝謝委員執照好來謝謝然後再請那個外交部和法務部謝謝"},{"start":219.726,"end":220.662,"text":"有請法務部。"},{"start":230.591,"end":233.814,"text":"請問一下,上週五28號的時候,印尼開始逮捕了103名在印尼巴黎島的從事網路詐騙的臺灣人,那這個規模算是很大的組織喔。那北溪想要請教一下法務部,根據媒體報導,外交部曾對外說明,經印尼清查以後,103名的嫌犯都是臺灣籍的。"},{"start":251.61,"end":251.95,"text":"台灣目前與印尼﹐"},{"start":279.11,"end":279.47,"text":"包括委員目前跟印尼沒有?"},{"start":291.431,"end":296.174,"text":"在2017年8月有一批大陸人和臺灣人組成電信詐騙集團在印尼被逮捕送往中國大陸但是在這個期間我們的外交部駐印尼的代表有把22名臺灣籍的有4名攔下來了依照國籍遣返原則"},{"start":311.523,"end":311.543,"text":"二、審"},{"start":340.083,"end":361.023,"text":"對於這個部分我們這邊也會盡努力因為當然是希望我們也會盡努力就是尋找尋以往的方式因為能讓我們的犯罪人回到臺灣來受審當然是我們一直以來的努力的目標那就北京這邊是否已經發表這樣的意見我們還會在了解中謝謝"},{"start":361.906,"end":386.533,"text":"好,所以如果是說,像剛才你說的,如果說回到臺灣的話,那我想再請問一下,103位詐騙犯全部遣送回來臺灣的前提之下,根據2016年通過的刑法修正案,把這刑法第339條第4條的加重詐欺罪,納入國外犯罪也是用,所以這樣的話,我們臺灣人在國外從事電信詐騙,是不是司法機關仍然會依照這樣的刑法來處罰呢?我這樣理解對嗎?哦,是。"},{"start":389.87,"end":395.014,"text":"最後還是呼籲一下法務部現在臺灣的詐騙其實臺灣的民眾都是深受其害還有這些詐騙集團也跑到其他國家從事詐騙所以這個案件越來越多會嚴重影響到我們臺灣的國際的聲譽所以甚至我們國家會在臺灣開放簽證免簽的時候也會再三的考慮所以會影響到臺灣和鄰近國家的正常的商務往來所以要請法務部必須對這個境外詐騙"},{"start":419.17,"end":423.972,"text":"事件一定要有效的整合各種機制,還有確實的防治,好嗎?接下來請王定宇委員執行。"}]}},{"id":"154461","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154461","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bde82164a561be41f7bbafa62845183024d15f5ccb8d26769b7b124888fff9f1c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:10:14 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media)的訊息，或者發展出我們的app，像現在加我們領務局LINE的朋友就有350萬人，這個效益當然是很大，所以我們有任何重大訊息都會透過各種群組去推播。當然另外還有這些在社會上具有關鍵影響力的意見領袖，我們就利用各種有效的手段、方法，然後儘量能夠傳達給我們每一個國人，讓他們理解這個議題的嚴重性，然後採取各種必要的防範措施。尤其是人在國外的時候，如果發生任何的事情或有任何威脅的跡象，也在第一時間跟我們外館來聯絡。"],["林委員楚茵：好，那本席有特別瞭解一下，比如像美國有推出一個智慧旅行者的註冊計畫，你一旦註冊之後，那麼美國的國務院會主動的發email，不管你有沒有要去旅行或旅遊，它有一些相關的旅遊警示、警訊或者是資訊，就會提供給美國的公民或者是有註冊的人。但是我們來看一下，其實就像您剛剛講的，我要問的就是，我們其實有一個旅行救助指南的app，但是截至7月2號為止，下載的只有47萬3,000人，那麼對比我們臺灣，最近大家看到新聞都在講機場裡面的旅客人潮爆滿，我們單單在2024年3月就已經達到了132萬人次，其實這兩者之間是非常的不相當，對這個部分，我也會建議好好的去強化這個功能，好嗎？"],["陳次長立國：是的。"],["林委員楚茵：包括在大家去下載的時候，你可以提供多一點的訊息，因為現在大家都是人手一機，這樣的訊息可以更直接、更直效。"],["陳次長立國：好，謝謝委員的指教，我們會繼續努力在這方面去繼續加強。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，各位請回。接下來進行詢答的委員是林憶君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1","speakers":["王定宇","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","羅美玲","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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﹏﹏"},{"start":118.027,"end":133.767,"text":"但是我也收到了另外一個聲音就是如果當時沒有透過新聞或是沒有立委的質詢的話其實很多我們國家跟其他國家的旅遊地區有紅燈、有橘燈、有不一樣的旅遊警戒但是國人其實不知道"},{"start":134.207,"end":154.362,"text":"最近會被注意到的原因是因為中國發布了22條的台獨意見之後大家注意到了包括陸委會宣布了它是橘燈所以我要問這個長次的就是對於這些旅遊警戒我們除了透過新聞稿發布之後民眾到底知不知道而這些民眾如果真的要去紅燈區或橘燈區那麼真的去了就沒有問題嗎"},{"start":158.425,"end":172.516,"text":"需不需要透過跟包括交通部或者是相關的觀光旅遊的單位甚至於跟旅行社來聯絡你要去可以但是要不要簽一個相關的切結書了解自身的安危不然到時候變成是政府宣導不夠啊讓他們深入險境啊來長次"},{"start":177.58,"end":199.468,"text":"是,謝謝委員您剛剛對這個議題寶貴的意見還有您的這個督促的確這個非常重要因為牽涉到國人旅外商旅的安全那剛剛您所提到臺獨城市二十二條這種常備管轄其實在很多之前的在這個委會裡面我們的討論都有包括這個部分那所以剛剛委員所提問說未來如果精進傳達的效率"},{"start":200.768,"end":200.788,"text":"二、審"},{"start":216.005,"end":216.025,"text":"二、審"},{"start":239.5,"end":240.682,"text":"一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、"},{"start":255.603,"end":255.623,"text":"二、審"},{"start":272.754,"end":299.413,"text":"通過發布新聞稿或者說有任何的社交媒體的訊息或者發展出我們的APP就是我們現在的領悟局的包括我們的加入領悟局的LINE的這個朋友的話就有350萬那所以這個效益當然是很大所以我們有任何重大訊息會透過各種群組去推播那當然還有另外各種具有在社會影響關鍵的力量這些意見領袖我們就利用各種手段方法"},{"start":299.873,"end":299.893,"text":"二、審"},{"start":314.904,"end":330.43,"text":"那本席特別有了解一下比如像美國來講的話他們是有推出一個智慧旅行者的註冊計畫你一旦註冊之後那麼美國的國務院會主動的發email如果說不管你有沒有要去旅行或旅遊他有一些相關的旅遊的警示或警訊或是資訊就會提供給美國的公民或者是你有註冊者"},{"start":334.611,"end":343.934,"text":"但是呢我們來看一下其實就像您剛剛講的我要問的就是我們其實有一個旅行救助指南的APP但是截至7月2號為止下載的只有47萬3千人對比我們臺灣你知道7月"},{"start":351.136,"end":375.867,"text":"最近大家看到新聞都在講在機場裡面旅遊的人潮爆滿我們單單2024年3月就已經達到了132萬人次喔其實彼此之間是非常的不相當在這個部分我也會建議好好的去強化這個功能好嗎包括你去下載的時候你可以多一點的訊息跟提供因為現在大家都是人手一機啦這樣的訊息可以更直接更直銷"},{"start":376.627,"end":386.997,"text":"好,謝謝委員的指教。我們會繼續努力在這方面去繼續加強。好,謝謝。好的,謝謝林楚瑩委員。各位請回。接下來進行詢答的委員是林益君委員。"}]}},{"id":"154458","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154458","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd69a2a8ab28856ca1bbafa62845183024d15f5ccb8d26769b8a83d6b4086f51895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:03:14 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10:10:04","影片長度":"00:06:50","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」案。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案。\n三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:03:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:10:04+08:00","duration":410,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":282,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時3分）謝謝主席，請外交部常務次長以及農業部漁業署張署長。"],["陳次長立國：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：各位早。雖然今天來的不是海巡署，但是昨天發生的大事，我認為跟漁業署還有外交部也有很大的關係，所以有一點問題想要詢問。據瞭解，昨天大進滿88號在晚間8點10分，在金門復國墩東北角海域21浬處捕撈小管時，突然有2艘中國海警船接近，放下小艇強行登檢，中國海警船控制船長跟船上的通訊系統，使得通訊系統中斷。2艘海警船將漁船押往中國圍頭港方向行駛，我方派出3艘海巡艇到場，原本他們有2艘海巡艦，後來增加到7艘。像這樣子，本來是大陸伏季休漁期間的，可是海巡署說，後續將由陸委會跟漁業署透過兩岸管道協調陸方，媒體報導的是，扣押的漁船上有1名臺灣的船長跟5名外籍的員工，所以我想要先請問一下漁業署署長，在這個部分，你們跟陸委會要怎麼透過兩岸的管道協商陸方，讓我們的外籍漁工以及臺灣船長能夠順利回台？"],["張署長致盛：是，謝謝委員的關心。我想有幾點必須要先說明，第一個部分，兩岸之間本來就有很多海域是重疊的……"],["徐委員巧芯：是。"],["張署長致盛：那我們漁船作業的區域，其實過去我們的漁船……"],["徐委員巧芯：當天他們是在我國的管轄範圍，還是不在我國的管轄範圍？"],["張署長致盛：本來兩岸之間就有很多海域是重疊的，原來他們作業的區域也是以往我們的漁船作業的區域，這是第一個要說明的。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，請說明。"],["張署長致盛：第二個部分，目前船上我們所掌握的是有2名臺籍的船員，包括船長……"],["徐委員巧芯：2名臺籍的船員？"],["張署長致盛：然後有3名印尼籍的船員，大概是這樣的情形。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。"],["張署長致盛：第三個部分，因為兩岸之間我們會透過陸委會來跟陸方協商要求放人，我們也呼籲中國大陸不要為難漁民，因為漁民作業非常的辛苦，他們也是為了養家餬口，希望雙方能夠務實地協調解決問題，真的不要為難漁民，漁民真的非常的辛苦。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。那根據漁業署署長您的瞭解，因為您跟陸委會這邊，包含海委會這邊，應該都已經做過討論，明明我們有3艘海巡船，為什麼人還是被帶走，請問你們是否有跟海巡署討論過，為何會有此種疏失？"],["張署長致盛：整個相關作業執法的情形，我想海巡也有對外發布新聞稿，表示他們今天早上10點會對外說明整個執法的過程……"],["徐委員巧芯：那未來我們……"],["張署長致盛：但是我們所掌握的部分，其實海巡的反應非常的迅速，他們聽到消息以後，船……"],["徐委員巧芯：馬上過來，但是還是……"],["張署長致盛：對，馬上派艦去……"],["徐委員巧芯：馬上過來嘛，好，我們不苛責，他們有立刻過來，我們不苛責，但未來是不是我們的漁船、漁民都會置於風險當中，漁業署有什麼樣的方法可以協助，這會不會變成常態？漁業署能夠提供我們漁民如何的幫助跟保護？"],["張署長致盛：是。我們不去臆測，但是我們會告訴我們的漁民相關的規定，還有我們作業的海域部分必須要注意，那本來在……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是你說有重疊的海域，他如果在重疊的海域內撈魚的時候又發生同樣的情況，該怎麼辦呢？"],["張署長致盛：我們也希望中國大陸能夠尊重我們漁船作業的權利，本來這個海域雙方的漁船都有在那個地方作業，我們就尊重這些漁民作業的權利。那我們臺灣也有跟其他的國家，比如說臺日、臺菲之間都有重疊海域，其實雙方是透過協商去做相關的漁業管理。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，瞭解，透過協商嘛，那我們什麼時候會跟中國大陸去協商？"],["張署長致盛：我們會跟陸委會這邊一起來努力。"],["徐委員巧芯：一起來努力，有沒有時間表？"],["張署長致盛：因為這是雙方面的協商，不是單方面……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為現在很急，現在很急，因為我們希望兩名臺灣籍的船長跟船員能夠趕快回來，那你們有沒有一個時間表，什麼時候要來啟動這樣的協商？"],["張署長致盛：我想當務之急應該是讓我們的船跟人能夠儘速回到臺灣來，保障他們的安全，這是第一個要做的事情。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們目前有沒有瞭解，陸委會這邊已經跟大陸這邊有一個確切的時間要來協商這件事情，還是目前是完全沒有的情況？"],["張署長致盛：今天早上我們跟陸委會這邊來聯絡，陸委會那邊已經展開作業了。"],["徐委員巧芯：展開作業了喔？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我再繼續問一下外交部這邊，雖然此事是由陸委會、海委會掌管，但是我想問，這個事情如果變成全球注目，因為現在大家都很關心臺海兩岸之間的關聯性，而且不只是兩岸關係而已，是全球都在關注這件事情，請問外交部的態度是什麼？"],["陳次長立國：跟委員回報，最近中華人民共和國發布海警三號令，明定中國海警機構在其認定的管轄海域，可登檢扣押涉嫌違反其出入境管理規定的外國籍船舶與人員。其實當初在6月14號外交部就已經發布了一個新聞聲明，主要是針對此一措施，我們向國際社會表達一個立場，就是任何一切作為都應該要符合國際法還有海洋法，以及任何破壞區域穩定和平的措施，都不能夠被接受，我們希望國際社會能正視這樣的一個情況，而且……"],["徐委員巧芯：那有用嗎？"],["陳次長立國：至少我覺得，到目前為止，很多其他國家，包括很多在南海、東海這些當事的國家，當然還有包括美國，都有很多針對相關議題的立場表態，那這個部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：這次有人表態了嗎？有國家表態了嗎？"],["陳次長立國：這次因為事情才剛發生而已，我們還在蒐集當中……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以未來會有其他國家來表態支持以及協助……"],["陳次長立國：這部分我們政府已經由海巡署發布了……"],["徐委員巧芯：我是說其他國家的部分……"],["陳次長立國：我們會來密切瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：你剛剛說到的是其他國家，因為我們曾經發布的這個聲明稿，所以會一起來支持臺灣，支持中華民國，面對這樣所謂不合理的待遇，請問這次就我們所掌握的，有沒有其他的國家會站出來支援我們？"],["陳次長立國：這部分我們會繼續努力，而且會跟其他國家……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以目前沒有？目前沒有，但是希望未來會有？"],["陳次長立國：因為才剛剛發生，我們正要瞭解當中。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員，各位請回。接下來進行詢答的委員林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1","speakers":["王定宇","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","羅美玲","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","林楚茵","林憶君","賴瑞隆","馬文君","洪申翰","陳冠廷","蔡易餘","黃仁","林岱樺","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」\n案；二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共\n和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案；三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共\n和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協\n定」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.14909375000000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.36846875,"end":8.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.695343750000003,"end":15.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.57284375,"end":96.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.16346875,"end":109.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.55409375,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.85721875,"end":120.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.60284375,"end":121.10909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.95721875000001,"end":153.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.21034375,"end":121.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.57721875000001,"end":123.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.47096875000001,"end":128.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.97284375,"end":129.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.95971875,"end":132.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.14221875,"end":152.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.05346875,"end":169.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.69221875000002,"end":184.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.69096875000002,"end":179.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.52534375000002,"end":205.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.47034375,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.83284375000002,"end":188.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.53471875000002,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.54159375,"end":225.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.41346875000002,"end":244.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.43659375000001,"end":239.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.71909375,"end":242.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.43596875000003,"end":247.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.23284375000003,"end":249.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.62909375,"end":251.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.89034375000003,"end":256.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.57784375000003,"end":265.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.82909375,"end":274.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.33846875,"end":284.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.30721875,"end":288.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.49221875,"end":311.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.69096875,"end":351.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.06471875,"end":351.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.56659375000004,"end":363.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.65784375000004,"end":364.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.44659375000003,"end":369.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.95284375,"end":366.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.42909375000005,"end":374.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.09096875,"end":377.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.09034375000005,"end":394.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.41909375,"end":380.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.33221875000004,"end":397.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.00284375,"end":397.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.50471875000005,"end":399.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.75784375,"end":400.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.50846875,"end":400.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.52534375000005,"end":401.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.45346875,"end":403.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.62596875,"end":407.39346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.03,"end":5.194,"text":"謝謝主席。我們請外交部常務次長以及這個農業部的漁業署張署長。學位好。"},{"start":17.409,"end":31.693,"text":"雖然今天來的不是海巡署但是最近昨天發生的大事跟漁業署還有外交部我認為也有很大的關係所以有一點問題想要來詢問據了解昨天大靜滿88號在晚間8點10分金門復國敦東北角海域21里處在捕撈小館的時候"},{"start":38.194,"end":61.135,"text":"突然有兩艘的中國海警船接近,然後放下小艇強行登檢。中國海警船控制船長跟船上的通訊系統,使得通訊系統中斷。兩艘海警船把這個船壓到中國圍頭方向行駛。我方派出三艘海巡艇到場,原本他們有兩艘海巡艦,後來增到七艘。"},{"start":62.456,"end":82.373,"text":"像這樣子本來是大陸復席休餘期間的喔可是呢海巡署說後續將由陸委會跟漁業署透過兩岸管道協調陸方那媒體報導的是扣押的船上與船上有一名臺灣的船長跟五級的母民的外籍員工所以我想要先請問一下我們的漁業署的署長"},{"start":86.536,"end":115.005,"text":"在這個部分跟陸委會你們要怎麼透過兩岸的管道協商陸方讓我們的外籍漁工以及我們的臺灣船長能夠順利回臺是謝謝委員的關心我想有幾點必須要先說明第一個部分兩個部分兩岸之間本來就有很多海域是重疊的是那我們漁船作業的區域其實過去我們的漁船當天他們是在我國管轄範圍還是不是在我國管轄範圍本來兩岸之間就有很多海域是重疊的"},{"start":115.805,"end":133.039,"text":"那當原來他們作業的區域也是以往我們的漁船就是在作業的區域這是第一個要說明的那第二個部分目前船上我們所掌握的是有兩名臺籍的船員包括船長那有三名印尼籍的船員大概是這樣的情形"},{"start":133.699,"end":159.339,"text":"第三因為兩岸之間我們會透過陸委會這邊來跟陸方這邊來協商要求放人那我們也呼籲中國大陸不要為難漁民因為漁民作業非常的辛苦他們也是為了養家糊口那雙方能夠務實的協調解決問題真的不要為難漁民,漁民真的非常的辛苦那根據於葉署署長您的了解因為您跟陸委會這邊應該也都包含是海委會這邊應該我們都已經做過討論嘛"},{"start":161.781,"end":186.401,"text":"那明明我們有三艘海巡船為什麼人還是被帶走?請問你們是否有跟海巡署討論過為何會有此種疏失?整個相關作業執法的情形我想海巡也有信用稿對外說明說他們今天早上10點會對外整個說明執法的問題但是我們所掌握的部分其實海巡的反應非常的迅速那他們聽到消息了以後船馬上過來對馬上派進去馬上過來嘛我們不苛責我們不苛責說他們有立刻過來"},{"start":190.785,"end":215.135,"text":"但未來是不是我們的漁船、漁民都會置於風險當中?漁業署有什麼樣的方法可以協助?這會不會變成常態?漁業署能夠提供我們漁民如何的幫助跟保護?是,我們不去預測啦,但是我們會告訴我們的漁民說,這個相關的規定還有我們作業的海域的部分必須要注意。"},{"start":215.575,"end":243.554,"text":"可是你說有重疊的部分啊那他如果在重疊的部分裡面那他去撈魚的時候那被又發生同樣的情況該怎麼辦呢這個其實我們也希望中國大陸能夠尊重我們漁船作業的權利本來這個海域雙方的漁船都有在那個地方作業我們就尊重這些漁民作業的權利那我們臺灣也有跟其他的國家比如說臺日、臺非我們都有重疊海域其實雙方是透過協商去做相關的漁業管理"},{"start":244.495,"end":262.722,"text":"那我們什麼時候會跟中國大陸去做協商?這個我們會跟陸委會這邊一起來努力。那一起來努力有沒有時間表?因為這個雙方的協商不是單方面。因為現在很急嘛。對,現在很急,因為我們希望兩名船長、兩名船員能夠台灣可能趕快回來嘛。那你們有沒有一個時間表什麼時候要來啟動這樣子的一個協商?"},{"start":265.943,"end":286.292,"text":"我想當務之急應該是讓我們的船跟人能夠儘速回到臺灣來保障他們的安全這個是第一個要做的部分那你們現在目前有沒有了解說跟陸委會這邊已經有向大陸這邊有一個確切的時間要來協商這件事情還是目前是完全沒有的情況今天早上我們跟陸委會這邊來聯絡陸委會那邊已經展開作業了"},{"start":290.275,"end":311.455,"text":"我再繼續問一下外交部這邊雖然此事是由陸委會海委會長官但是我想問這個事情如果變成全球注目因為現在大家都很關心臺海兩岸之間的關聯性而且不只是兩岸關係也是全球都在關注這件事情請問外交部的態度是什麼"},{"start":313.005,"end":342.185,"text":"各位回報也就是說在最近中華人民共和國海警三號令發布也就是說在相關的這個海域如果說有這種他們認為說他們的這個執行的程序規定在他們的海域內等等這些他們會登檢其實我們當初在6月14號外交部就已經發布了一個新聞聲明主要是針對這樣一個措施我們提出向國際社會來做一個立場的表達也就是說一切的任何作為應該要符合國際法"},{"start":342.785,"end":342.946,"text":"那有用嗎?"},{"start":352.928,"end":366.233,"text":"至少我覺得在目前為止很多其他國家包括很多在南海、東海這些當事的國家都當然還有包括美國都有很多的相關的議題的立場的表態那這部分 這次有人表態了嗎?這一次目前為止因為還發生的才發生而已所以未來會有其他國家來表態支持以及協助這部分我們政府是已經有海巡署已經發布了 我是說其他國家的部分"},{"start":378.337,"end":407.117,"text":"你剛剛說到的是其他國家因為我們曾經發布的這個聲明稿所以會一起來支持臺灣支持中華民國那面對這樣子所謂不合理的待遇那請問這次我們所掌握的有沒有其他的國家會站出來支援我們這部分我們會繼續努力而且會跟其他國家目前沒有但是希望未來會有好 謝謝好 謝謝徐小新委員各位請回接下來進行巡達委員林楚英委員"}]}},{"id":"154456","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154456","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdf7212e3a1f5b3937bbafa62845183024d15f5ccb8d26769beaf25f846360b90e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"09:55:10 - 10:03:06","影片長度":"00:07:56","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」案。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案。\n三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:55:10+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:03:06+08:00","duration":476,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":249,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（9時55分）主席、各位委員，有請外交部還有農業部。"],["主席：好，兩位次長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：兩位次長好。我們先談中華民國政府部分停止中華民國與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書，從外交部的報告裡面提到107年8月21日臺薩斷交後，薩國宣布自108年3月15號起廢除臺薩FTA。請問一下外交部次長，我們為什麼要到現在才要要停止？"],["陳次長立國：報告委員，因為……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：107年8月21號就臺薩斷交了，對不對？然後薩國主動宣布108年3月15號要廢除臺薩FTA，我們現在已經是113年，即便是112年你們有送到立法院，但是從107年8月21號斷交，然後薩爾瓦多108年3月15號宣布廢除臺薩FTA，從108年來講的話，到現在也很多年了，那為什麼？"],["陳次長立國：第一個當然是我們報告裡面也有說明的是他們自己內部的糖業協會有提出他們內部的一種所謂的法律程序……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，你有寫。"],["陳次長立國：對，另外當然也是因為還有WTO的，我們的通報程序，接下來是我們送到行政院，行政院到立法院的這種審議程序。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那已經是112年了，我說從108年 到112年很長的時間，他們打訴訟是他們的事情，我是說我們中華民國的立場，為什麼要拖到112年？為什麼要等它的憲法判決？我在問這個，你沒有交代啊！為什麼？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，即使斷交的時候，FTA還是有繼續存在有效的例子，所以雖然當時跟薩爾瓦多斷交，但是我們的FTA仍然繼續有效。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：它宣布，那我們可不可以宣布？可以啊！不是不行啊！好，這個你再書面報告給我啦，好像很難回答。外交部的報告裡面提到，已構成重大違約。那要追究啊！如何追究？有沒有追究？"],["陳次長立國：如果說是有這部分的情況，我們當然會……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有啊，你已經寫了，已構成重大違約，不是如果，已經寫了，寫得很清楚了。這個部分你很難啟口，沒關係，書面報告給我，因為時間的關係，後面還有。"],["陳次長立國：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你這裡面也提到了影響很少，占對外貿易總額均為0.01%，然後我們出口的這些也很少，我們去的也很少，你說很有限嘛！所以這個部分，前前後後，作為一個30年的公務員，從你的報告不是那麼清楚，然後今天要我們立法院背書這個部分。","我們接下來還有一個議題，漁業補貼協定，馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書及其附件漁業補貼協定，這個部分請教，這樣的一個論述對不對？WTO漁業補貼談判要求會員的義務包括這些，這個有沒有錯誤？這我Google出來的。"],["黃次長昭欽：報告委員，這個字面上的意義的話可能跟我們WTO的條文裡面有若干的部分不大相同，第一個、不能補貼涉及非法捕魚的這個部分，它涉及的是IUU的所謂重大違規……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們看第三個好了……"],["黃次長昭欽：不能補貼漁船或漁民過度提升漁船捕撈能力，這個部分的話，事實上在條文裡面是禁止在公海區域裡面作業的漁船，以我們目前現有的遠洋漁船，基本上都是在所謂的國際組織RFMOs的轄下接受管理的，所以基本上沒有這樣的部分。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。農業部的報告裡面有提到後續相關工作，我們先看外交部的，漁業補貼協定的內容，摘要就有6項，所以也不限於剛才講的遠洋漁業，近海漁業也有包括，有吧？近海漁業。"],["黃次長昭欽：是，在近海的這個部分，有關於會過漁的資源的部分，我們不能夠進行相關的補貼，因為我們都設有相關的禁漁期、禁漁區等……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這麼重大的事情，有沒有跟我們的漁業界來溝通，讓他們去瞭解，然後說明？"],["黃次長昭欽：報告委員，這個我們都有在持續地跟漁民、產業界來做溝通。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個部分，我來說，最後，主席已經站起來了，後續的這個裡面有提到，辦理協定內國法化相關作業，盤點並檢視相關法規及計畫，倘與協定規範存有落差，將啟動修正程序，於協定生效前，完成修法工作。可以簡單說明哪些法律？"],["黃次長昭欽：請署長說明一下。"],["主席：請摘要。"],["張署長致盛：謝謝委員。就裡面提到比如說IUU漁業補貼，我們現在本來就已經禁止了嘛！另外針對過漁這個部分，我們法規再更明確一點，這個我們會滾動來檢討。剛剛委員所提的第三個部分，其實是第二階段在談，目前各國還沒有共識，如果通過以後，我們相關的這些法規大概也會做檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我知道，因為現在締約國還沒有那麼多嘛！所以這個部分要很詳細的書面資料提供好不好？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為今天我們就通過了，到時候，我們只好不得不修法，好不好？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員，各位請回。接下來進行詢答的委員是徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1","speakers":["王定宇","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","羅美玲","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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你有沒有辦法沒有人花九百幾要花幾毛的另外一個來 第二張slide"},{"start":445.512,"end":454.655,"text":"我要跟大家報告的大家不要仇視繳稅多的人這對大家的講話很大台灣的家庭戶數662萬戶沒有繳稅的喔沒有繳稅的占了44.16%292萬戶沒在繳稅"},{"start":469.758,"end":498.8,"text":"一千萬加零數一千萬進所得才一萬一千八百七十六萬負占總數的零點一八Percent但是這些人呢繳了多少繳了二十二點六的所得稅那五百萬以上的才四萬九千負這兩組人加起來付了四十幾趴的所得稅所以人們常常這樣籌付我覺得這些人要給他"},{"start":500.886,"end":503.408,"text":"祝福祝福祝福祝福祝福祝福祝福祝福祝福祝福祝"},{"start":528.396,"end":534.283,"text":"要珍惜,就像美國總統講的,這些有錢人繳多一點稅,所以國家有貢獻。差不多10年都是這樣,所以我對他們非常尊敬,希望他們賺多一點,繳多一點。"},{"start":546.605,"end":547.225,"text":"謝謝蘇清泉委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"154453","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154453","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdcd8fa500ce91b6038bd437f77bf0ffe2d15f5ccb8d26769b2b10ce0376c3db915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:54:21 - 09:59:48","影片長度":"00:05:27","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會公聽會（事由：「公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:54:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T09:59:48+08:00","duration":327,"features":["ai-transcript"],"meet":{"sessionPeriod":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"公聽會-2024062802","type":"公聽會","title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會公聽會（事由：「公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進」公聽會）"},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.6003437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.505343750000002,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.84659375,"end":35.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.09284375,"end":201.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.16409375,"end":211.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.01471875000001,"end":212.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.74034375000002,"end":250.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.70909375000002,"end":255.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.14284375,"end":257.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.84284375000004,"end":266.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.14971875000003,"end":278.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.10971875,"end":287.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.30659375,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.20409375,"end":318.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.87096875000003,"end":325.95471875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.05,"end":14.665,"text":"針對公職人員選舉罷免法在2016年修法之後公職人員罷免的門檻降為同意票數要達到原選區的四分之一以上而且同意票要大於不同意票即為通過"},{"start":15.746,"end":35.308,"text":"自從罷免的制度門檻下修之後有成功的例子也有失敗的狀況雖然說罷免制度可以讓民眾有機會下架不失人的公職人員但是我們也必須要警惕不要成為政治鬥爭的籌碼更不能容忍罷免成為一種政治報復的工具"},{"start":36.149,"end":53.811,"text":"民主制度需要一個健全的制度來保護而不是任由其濫用民主的精髓在於尊重多數人的意見但當罷免的門檻設計過低的時候就有可能導致少數人為了罷免來實現私利進而削弱了民主的根基"},{"start":54.392,"end":56.995,"text":"這幾年罷免的提案經常發生這跟低門檻的設計有很大的問題現行的罷免門檻過低除了會變相鼓勵罷免之外也讓敗選的一方容易操作罷免成為選舉的延長賽不但不利於民主良善的一個發展"},{"start":73.354,"end":73.734,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":93.612,"end":93.852,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法實務"},{"start":111.406,"end":130.41,"text":"因此在民國105年11月的時候民進黨全面執政將罷免門檻修正為罷免案投票結果有效同意票多於不同意票數且同意票數達原選舉區的人數的四分之一以上現行的門檻這個過低已經被提出來多次討論有專家學者認為因為罷免權具有破壞性質會避免罷免權被濫用因而破壞政治的穩定性"},{"start":141.372,"end":169.384,"text":"所以脫離這個憲政的常軌應該要修正現行的選罷法中的罷免制度的規定那選舉是選賢與能罷免是免除不適任的公職人員續任公職的一個手段那單一選區要進半數的選票才能夠當選但是現在卻只要四分之一的門檻就可以把它罷掉形同讓少數的民意否決多數的民意因此"},{"start":170.565,"end":185.102,"text":"當選時票數較高 但是罷免時只要部分的人 四分之一的人同意就可以通過導致罷免已成為政治報復的工具 顯然非常不合理當然在這個除此之外 我們還要看到很多"},{"start":185.843,"end":210.235,"text":"在這個罷免的一個過程中會有很多的一個問題包括我這次還有修正第75條的規定就是就職未滿一年者不得罷免因為沒有明確的規定所以導致很多的里長跟民意代表在面臨一上任就有人啟動罷免的提議跟連署讓他們也沒辦法真正開始好好做事就要必須要面對罷免的這樣的一個問題"},{"start":211.295,"end":236.348,"text":"所以當很多這樣子的一個狀況發生他們未滿一年就開始收集這個提議書聯署書甚至惡意的造假這個聯署人的名冊的一個情況顯見罷免的聯署程序跟宣傳的規範也過於寬鬆也破壞民主的一個選舉的一個精神那當然現行的這個罷免制度之下呢我們也希望說"},{"start":237.929,"end":257.259,"text":"新增同意票數去超過被罷免人當選票數叫符合公平正義也就是說不能讓少數的民意去否決多數的民意也希望這樣子的一個狀況發生之後呢任何的黨籍的公職人員都可以適用"},{"start":259.251,"end":287.166,"text":"從最近罷免連署的狀況來看因為低門檻的罷免設計而且罷免連署規範不夠嚴謹導致有心人都拿著名冊亂抄加上中選會的不作為已經為罷免制度帶來一系列不良的影響罷免的門檻偏低連署的方式過於寬鬆已成為罷免者成為輸不起的報復工具甚至我想這也是一個"},{"start":288.642,"end":305.506,"text":"針對我們嚴肅的公共事務也損害了民主制度的信譽那這一次的公聽會希望這個能夠因為我們也看到民進黨的很多委員也都有提出了相關的90條的修正版本顯見草衍的立委都認為現行的罷免的門檻確實過低造成高票當選低票罷免的過程"},{"start":309.827,"end":310.007,"text":"許宇甄議員"}]}},{"id":"154451","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154451","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bda53df83dfe4e76c7bbafa62845183024dc75a2b8c9f1b70622026100640eea3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:48:14 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09:54:57","影片長度":"00:06:43","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」案。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案。\n三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T09:48:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T09:54:57+08:00","duration":403,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":210,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時48分）謝謝主席，有請漁業署，謝謝。"],["主席：來，署長。"],["張署長致盛：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：署長好。最主要是根據今天的這個協定要做一些討論，但是在這個之前，因為昨天剛好有發生一個時事，所以我想跟你確認一下，我們有一艘捕魚的船被中國帶走，對不對？"],["張署長致盛：是！"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我看到他們有說這是一個休漁的季節，而休漁這件事情，即禁止捕魚的這件事情是中國的，還是臺灣的？"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告，中國大陸有一個制度就是伏季休漁……"],["沈委員伯洋：對。"],["張署長致盛：那時候所指的休漁，在昨天我們漁船作業的海域裡面，它是從5月1號到8月16號，在這個區域他們是休漁的，所以這個是指中國大陸的休漁。"],["沈委員伯洋：不是我們的休漁、不是臺灣的休漁。"],["張署長致盛：對，臺灣沒有。臺灣是針對個別魚種，但是針對我們昨天作業的漁船，並沒有這樣的禁止。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，好。這個也是滿奇怪的，因為我看到新聞報導提到也有中國的漁船，所以這個是有點疑義，總之我只是想跟你確認這件事情而已。","再來，就是根據今天的漁業補貼，剛剛前面都有人問了，就是IUU的事情等等之類的，這個我不多說，這邊我問幾個小問題，因為目前應該是要三分之二的WTO會員國，才有辦法持續下去，所以大概要110個國家，目前有76個會員國已經完成審議了，臺灣如果審議完成、送出去，就再加上去。我只是想問，目前漁業署有沒有自己評估大概什麼時候有可能會生效？什麼時候會達到那個門檻？"],["張署長致盛：是！這個會看各個國家批准的程序，但是從我們來看這整個程序，還有從WTO我們代表團那邊提供的資訊，大家評估大概很有可能今年就會達到。"],["沈委員伯洋：很有可能今年？"],["張署長致盛：很有可能今年啦！"],["沈委員伯洋：好。"],["張署長致盛：但是各個國家的狀況，我們真的沒有辦法個別……"],["沈委員伯洋：因為有些國家有時候還滿慢的。"],["張署長致盛：對、對！"],["沈委員伯洋：如果是這個樣子，如果有可能是今年的話，目前有沒有針對生效後可能產生的衝擊做一些評估？"],["張署長致盛：因為目前這個漁業補貼大概針對三個部分，第一個，針對IUU漁船不能予以補貼，臺灣本來相關法規就很完備了；第二個，就是對於過漁的作業不能補貼，臺灣本來對沿近海都有相關漁業資源的評估跟整個相關的規定，我想我們在整個符合法規的部分沒有問題；第三個部分，就是在區域漁業組織以外這些公海的部分，臺灣本來就沒有在這些相關區域、沒有管理公海作業的船隻，所以我們評估過對目前整個產業作業跟相關的衝擊應該是沒有的。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，我看到另外一份報告有講到，你們會啟動一些相關法律的修正，這些法律的修正有可能會是什麼時候提出來嗎？"],["張署長致盛：因為目前WTO其實也在進行第二階段漁業補貼的整個談判，我們對這些相關的法規部分會隨時滾動來檢討。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，希望院版能夠儘快出來，如果按照剛剛講的年底就會生效，我覺得可能要提早做準備。"],["張署長致盛：是！相關的準備都在進行。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK。另外一個就是遠洋漁業的問題，剛剛前面已經有提到了，所以我這邊不多說。因為3個月就算強迫勞動，目前還是有到10個月的情形，不過我覺得比較扯的還是WiFi，畢竟WiFi現在韓國可以到3到5GB或者3小時，臺灣還是比較少一點，這個可能慢慢再繼續檢討改進，我先不多講。我要問的是下一個地方，畢竟遠洋漁工是一個重要議題，雖然還不在這一次的協商範圍之內，但是我們想知道這三年內死亡跟傷病數字的處理情形，還有包含遠洋漁船，也包含FOC，它有一些違規數字、後續處理情形等等之類的，三年我不知道會不會太多啦！如果三年太多的話，或許近一年的也可以，我們可能還是要針對這部分做一個評估，不然的話，在下一次要討論漁業相關協定的時候，遠洋漁工的問題永遠都會被提出來，這些相關的數字不知道有沒有可能在這幾個禮拜送到辦公室來？"],["張署長致盛：沒有問題。我也要跟委員報告，我們非常重視外籍漁工在漁船上作業的安全，除了這些相關的訓練跟船東、船主、船長的訓練以外，其實我們從今年開始，對每一個遠洋漁船上的每個漁工都會補貼一件充氣式救生衣，這個就是讓這些漁工在甲板上作業能夠穿著救生衣，避免落海以後發生危險，我想我們從各個面向這部分會持續來努力。至於數據的部分，我們整理之後就會送到委員辦公室。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝，我可能後續要再繼續追一些跟遠洋漁工相關的問題。另外還有一個小資料，就是FOC的漁船，因為目前來講，我看到網站上面會有一些不定期的更新，到底外籍漁工在上面的人數是多少，有這樣的數據嗎？"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告，所謂FOC就是它的國籍不在臺灣，有些是它當地國的管理，這個部分我們還要再進一步瞭解，目前我們只掌握到跟我們報備經營FOC的這些船數，我們的規定也說船上這些外籍漁工的相關權利什麼要比照國籍的漁船。至於說人數各方面的部分，我們目前還沒有進一步的資料。"],["沈委員伯洋：目前沒有這個資料？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。主席不好意思，我再請一下外交部次長，很快，謝謝。"],["陳次長立國：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：次長好，我這個很快，就只是因為之前有發文到外交部問一下他們的同性伴侶，因為畢竟通常來講在外館還是第一關，然後後來他可以再回到臺灣，移民署是第二關，那時候我們有發文說泰國的部分常常在第一關的時候等於沒有作用啦！它永遠都是直接到第二關，叫他回臺灣做面試，因為我昨天有收到你們的回文，回文有講說因與基於面談疑慮判準之原則有別，可能會重申嚴禁該等作法，所以只是後續可能還會再繼續追這件事情，但因為外交部昨天就已經回文了，只是要提醒一下，就是這件事情的後續可能還是要再追蹤。"],["陳次長立國：好的，那後續會跟委員再繼續回報。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員。","接下來進行詢答委員鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1","speakers":["王定宇","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","羅美玲","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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為三個月就算強迫勞動嘛目前還是有到十個月的情形不過我覺得比較扯的還是Wi-Fi因為畢竟Wi-Fi現在韓國可以到這個3到5GB嘛或者三小時嘛那臺灣還是比較少一點所以這個可能就是慢慢再繼續減少改進這個我先不多講我要問的是下一個地方就是因為就是畢竟遠洋漁工它是一個重要議題啦"},{"start":226.798,"end":244.837,"text":"那雖然還不在這一次的協商範圍之內但是我們想知道這三年內這一個死亡跟傷病數字的一個處理情形還有包含這一個遠洋漁船那也包含FLC就是它有一些違規的數字啊後續處理的傾向等等之類的那我不是三年我不知道會不會太多啦"},{"start":245.277,"end":262.103,"text":"如果三年太多的話,或許近一年也可以,就是說我們可能還是要針對這個部分做一個評估,不然的話在接下來在下一次要討論這些漁業相關協定的時候,遠洋漁工的問題永遠都會被提出來。那被提出來的話呢,這些相關的數字不知道有沒有可能在這幾個禮拜送到辦公室來。"},{"start":262.811,"end":291.668,"text":"沒有問題那我要跟委員報告其實我們非常重視外籍漁工在漁船上作業的安全那除了這些相關的訓練跟船長這邊的訓練以外其實我們從今年開始我們對每一個遠洋漁船上面每個漁工都會補貼一件充氣式的救生衣那就是讓這些漁工在甲板上作業能夠穿著救生衣避免落海以後發生危險我想我們從各個面向這部分會持續來努力那至於數據的部分我們整理之後就會送到委員辦公室"},{"start":292.188,"end":308.271,"text":"此外,我可能後續要再繼續追一些跟遠洋漁工相關的問題。另外還有一個小資料,就是說這個FLC的這個漁船,因為目前來講我看到網站上面會有一些不定期的更新,那到底外籍漁工在這個上面的人數是多少,有這樣的數據嗎?"},{"start":310.145,"end":334.653,"text":"總委員報告所謂FOC就是它的國籍不在臺灣那這個有些是它當地國的管理那這個部分我們還要再進一步了解目前我們只掌握到跟我們報備經營FOC的這些傳輸那我們的規定也說它船上的這些外籍漁工它的相關權利什麼要比照國籍的漁船至於說人數各方面的部分我們目前還沒有進一步的資料目前沒有這個資料是"},{"start":337.058,"end":339.187,"text":"主席不好意思我再請一下這個外交部次長很快謝謝"},{"start":352.01,"end":365.648,"text":"市長好我這個很快這個就只是因為之前有這個發文到外交部問一下這一個他們的同性伴侶因為畢竟通常來講在外館他是第一關然後後來他可以再回到臺灣移民署是第二關那時候我們有發文說這一個就是"},{"start":366.169,"end":366.329,"text":"謝謝,謝謝主席"},{"start":399.785,"end":403.301,"text":"好,謝謝沈伯陽委員。好,那接下來進行巡查委員鄭天才"}]}},{"id":"154449","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154449","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd19bcf33bc9be9f68bbafa62845183024dc75a2b8c9f1b70631947d3c5364f5145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:41:25 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,"text":"二、審"},{"start":363.299,"end":387.064,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我們應該分成兩個部分第一個部分就是在我們沿近海作業的漁船那這個部分我們依照就業服務法引進的部分他本來就有勞保這些相關的規定那另外漁業組也另外協助那遠洋的部分就是他在海作業是在公海所以由漁船公司去向船東向不同的保險公司投保也包括國內也包括國外那大部分都是跟國外保險公司來投保"},{"start":387.244,"end":411.852,"text":"我最後補充一句就是因為我們在當時的時候漁業署這邊曾經講過說我們漁業署會進行船員訪查和勞動檢查的部分那本期是要求是我們漁業署這邊對於外籍船員投保的情形進行一些統計跟研究所以當你們在做訪查的時候我們希望說能夠把這部分落實那後續如何做請漁業署再到本辦公室來做報告"},{"start":412.472,"end":413.575,"text":"接下來進行詢問羅美玲委員"}]}},{"id":"154441","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154441","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd751799fd719ea4c7bbafa62845183024dc75a2b8c9f1b70611b71d275bb92f445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:26:46 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decision嘛？"],["陳次長立國：是，我剛剛有說明。"],["主席：所以，一個可以……"],["陳次長立國：就是一票就可以否決，如果沒有共識，就不會達成決議。"],["主席：所以這個要講清楚，免得國人擔心。謝謝。"],["陳次長立國：是的。"],["主席：接下來進行詢答的委員是鄭正鈐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1","speakers":["王定宇","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","羅美玲","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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然後中國給他很多的糖吃結果不知道他是包著糖衣的毒藥現在導致因為他的蝦農沒有辦法"},{"start":298.353,"end":298.373,"text":"二、審"},{"start":327.626,"end":352.959,"text":"這是最佳的案例所以我為什麼會用這兩個部分我們要很清楚讓我們的友方知道我們臺灣對友方是言出必行可是中國不是他給你的是包著糖衣的毒藥華而不實的承諾而且都是騙局像過去的一帶一路現在有多少的國家被騙了"},{"start":354.219,"end":374.745,"text":"數不清吧數不清嘛所以數不清的這個國家被騙然後再直接我們的友邦用了這麼多的好的條件去吸引你然後去做這樣的一個跟臺灣斷交跟中國建交目的達成之後就開始跳票了是"},{"start":375.888,"end":394.261,"text":"所以現在宏都拉斯直接面臨的是中國因為的欺騙而造成產業的倒閉所以我們必須把這樣的案例很清楚跟我們友邦不斷的去做這樣的一個讓他們瞭解讓他們看到這樣的一個這個現實的一個狀態"},{"start":398.004,"end":417.442,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分是比較重要的再麻煩我們外交部大家努力辛苦我知道現在外交部的處境其實要讓大家知道更需要去宣傳而不是自己在自己的國內而是去讓大家知道臺灣基本上跟中國的不同謝謝"},{"start":418.924,"end":429.084,"text":"謝謝委員的指教,我們這方面會繼續努力。好,謝謝陳委員。那個陳市長,CICA跟歐盟一樣吧,都是consensus 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有第四點我要說的是在現行美國加州的州長"},{"start":194.229,"end":203.155,"text":"美國加州的州長的罷免制度他就是當這個目前的美國加州州長的罷免成案有三次最近在2022年那他的情況是怎樣先任的州長經過公民連署達到了罷免成立案的門檻之後那麼就擇定一天同時進行兩項投票"},{"start":218.424,"end":223.511,"text":"第一項投票要同意是否罷免現職的這位州長那規定要罷免過50%這個罷免案才能夠同意但是同時選民會投下一個什麼票投下誰來接任的投票"},{"start":236.308,"end":256.535,"text":"那當然現任面臨被罷免的州長：他也可以選擇同時列名在其上在這種情況之下：如果說第一項的同意票沒有過半數那第二項的第一名：就是沒有被罷免成功當然現任州長：不管你第二項的投票第一名是誰"},{"start":257.925,"end":283.437,"text":"有可能第二項投票的第一名 州長沒有第一名 州長拿到45%第一名拿到46% 但是 可是呢 州長在罷免同意票上卻沒有過半這時候州長就沒有被罷免 但是如果州長被罷免了 那麼就由第二項的最高票來繼任州長當然啦 那如果最高票還是原來的州長呢 那就由次高票來擔任"},{"start":284.758,"end":290.723,"text":"所以以這樣的思考來看這樣的一個罷免的設計他就無所...他當然還是有一個罷免門檻的過關但是呢他同時解決了選舉的經濟問題我們現在看到了目前前高雄市長被罷免的情況他在罷免之後還要再進行辦理補選"},{"start":304.158,"end":304.358,"text":"公職人員選舉法實務現況精進"},{"start":324.853,"end":337.915,"text":"我想這就涉及到罷免不得進行宣傳相關的對於罷免一種消極的規定所以如果從這樣來算我們有三個問題希望後續能夠思考第一罷免的對象要不要區分行政首長跟民意代表"},{"start":338.41,"end":359.606,"text":"第二 罷免要不要區分單一選區跟複數選區第三 罷免的同時是不是要同時並同設計接任人選如果罷免成功接任人選的選舉以便讓整個社會的民意在同時去除原任者之後可以順利的馬上的產生下一位值得民意附託的人以上好 謝謝接下來我們請簡年佑同學"}]}},{"id":"154504","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154504","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdad4374afea0aa0fc916d49e9c2c49f91e8e3eb0bf88d021c547d61b99647e9e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:44:33 - 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制度的調整基層都跟我說 非常感謝你我至少跟我兒子女兒有一個更好的交代他們可以好好上班 把小孩子照顧好以後不用擔心我太多不用舟車勞頓 不讓我一家一家一家一人去跑讓我確認再確認 這次沒通過 下次要再來一次"},{"start":141.463,"end":141.603,"text":"公聽委員．李彥秀"},{"start":167.09,"end":167.71,"text":"公聽委員：李彥秀"},{"start":194.588,"end":194.748,"text":"公聽委員．李彥秀"},{"start":225.068,"end":225.269,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":246.829,"end":246.889,"text":"第57條第3款"},{"start":263.639,"end":280.727,"text":"僱主聘僱外國人不得指派聘僱外國人從事許可以外的工作其實我們現在就有相關的法規可以去做把關如果僱主把外籍看護當幫傭勞動部就可以依法介入廢止聘僱許可而且可以裁罰做處理"},{"start":281.988,"end":282.348,"text":"以上是我的意見,謝謝"},{"start":311.413,"end":312.658,"text":"感謝李彥秀委員發言"}]}},{"id":"154501","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154501","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd4c43197d244c7db7916d49e9c2c49f91e8e3eb0bf88d021cc1cb33d534d520845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:37:17 - 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針對這個部分"},{"start":184.156,"end":213.613,"text":"要有一個專門的計畫提出來解決大家的問題因為這個是現在已經存在的問題而不是因為開放80歲以上免巴士量表之後它才會產生的問題我想這個大家要理清所以根本的問題我們就應該要根本的來處理跟解決我覺得這個才可以真的要去呼應到這些重症家庭的需求這是一個面向另外一個我要講的就是80歲以上的老人家"},{"start":214.153,"end":214.533,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":230.999,"end":231.219,"text":"公聽委員：王育敏"},{"start":250.49,"end":273.316,"text":"政府應該要正視我們所有的服務體系檢證辨明是非常重要的看看我們現在的制度多麼的繁複我們是在為難這些有需求的家庭所以為什麼有委員要提出這樣子的一個檢證辨明的措施讓有80歲以上的這些家庭有需求的家庭可以省去舟車老頓"},{"start":275.267,"end":302.488,"text":"那這個就是政府要去思考的為什麼這個政策一喊出來修法喊出來之後在民意上是獲得壓倒性的支持就是因為民眾覺得現在的政策不夠好現在太反覆這個也是為什麼逼的現在勞動部說我們要更去簡化那個過程評估的過程所以很多的制度我們的推進都是因為從民眾的需求我們看到問題我們可以不斷的"},{"start":304.309,"end":304.549,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":331.135,"end":331.175,"text":"主席"},{"start":348.288,"end":364.464,"text":"不足以因應所以我們必須面對一個現實就是外籍看護工必須增加我們的長照量能我們的居家服務我們的機構的服務各式各樣的服務量能都必須同步增加而台灣我們現在已經看到了我們不可能仰賴單一的體系"},{"start":366.306,"end":394.851,"text":"光靠本土所建構出來的長照體系也不足以服務所有有需求的這一些這個長者的家庭所以未來我們應該建構是什麼一個多元的服務體系一個服務量能充足的服務體系一個簡正便民的服務體系在長照服務的過程當中不要去為難任何的這一些案家而政府就是要服務人民所有過程繁瑣不必要的"},{"start":395.391,"end":402.653,"text":"都應該要去除我覺得這個應該是我們共同去追求的目標所以很感謝今天有這樣的公聽會我覺得台灣我們未來面臨高齡社會我們的挑戰還非常的多我們所有的長照體系要檢討的部分也還非常的多我希望大家都是用一個正向的方法提供一個更有建設性的制度然後讓我們所有的這一些量能都足夠"},{"start":421.238,"end":421.479,"text":"王育敏委員"}]}},{"id":"154499","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154499","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdeb0e5ea6a6ffeccf916d49e9c2c49f91e8e3eb0bf88d021cfd2c8cf5242c617a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:31:45 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私人照顧的困境女性的參與率因為這樣受到影響都是現在在社會各個角落都在發生的立即性而且迫切性的問題換言之正因為如此我們認為在綜合各方的想法跟考量之後放寬相關的門檻還是要先走"},{"start":136.13,"end":158.34,"text":"但是我們也希望我們的政府單位針對這些配套的措施能夠持續的來做完善跟精進如此不耽誤其成但是也能夠讓機制更加完備我希望是往這樣的方向來進行那麼幾個詳細的部分幾個想法在此跟大家分享現在是巴士量表針對日常生活失能與否的評估"},{"start":160.862,"end":175.438,"text":"實際上顯然啦這個需要照顧的人不是不是只有失能者這我們剛剛說過了失智或者是重大疾病用巴斯量表好像也不一定評估的出來所以換言之有很多人在講是不是應該讓巴斯量表回復診斷證明的功能而不是變成聘護"},{"start":176.48,"end":198.338,"text":"並顧外籍看護的一個資格審查的硬性門檻並且應該要利用失能的程度評估作為給予長照補助的標的這我想大家都更加的專業所以積極的評估擴大多元免評的適用範圍採取多元認定的方式免除巴士量表的評估這我想政府應該也做了若干的作為那追根究理都還是要簡化"},{"start":199.246,"end":226.324,"text":"民眾在申請聘僱外籍看護工的程序我想這個方向我們樂觀其成這個我們也希望是雙軌並進另外針對外籍看護人力聘僱條件的鬆綁有些人會擔心有所謂的排擠效應有器重責輕這確實是有這樣的可能但是不能因為這一點就把立即性的有照護需求的家庭拒之門外這我想是民意代表的責任必須要如實的來做反應所以我們要求政府應該要有更多的配套相關措施"},{"start":226.784,"end":247.967,"text":"不管是讓重症難照顧者有更多的補助提高待遇給相關的看護工或者是轉介長照居家服務剛剛我們有教授講非常好應該是透過導引的方式如何整合這兩軌讓外籍看護跟現有的長照政策能夠做銜接讓它變成相互支援的一個模式我想這也是一個可以朝向的目標"},{"start":248.988,"end":269.079,"text":"最後我本席認為家庭的外籍看護聘僱已經逐漸從補充的人力慢慢變成主力這是一個大家雖然覺得有點遺憾但是是個現實我想勞動部不應該只是把它變成家庭跟移工之間的聘僱關係而是應該要去思考負責任的管控外籍看護的這些的長照品質"},{"start":269.859,"end":297.775,"text":"並且給予更好的專業訓練剛剛我們也有學者專家有提到日本的門檻硬性門檻比台灣高很多但為什麼人家還是願意去呢對不對這個是值得深入探討我們是不是能夠合理的提高專業訓練的強度讓未來能夠進來的這些移工更有相關的專業素養跟品質我想這我們也是非常同意的並且更重要的是勞動部應該要跟衛福部一起整合長照資源讓民眾能夠有效而且便利的來運用"},{"start":298.655,"end":324.203,"text":"最後我們才能夠打造勞有所終這個友善老年人口的這個社會本期樂見外籍看護聘僱制度的鬆綁解決老年人口照顧的迫切需求也要解決青壯年人口的負擔期望勞動部與衛福部在聽了今天大家不同的意見之後肩負責任整合照護資源不管是外籍看護或者是長照機制都要有更細膩更完善的配套措施以致改善以上謝謝好謝謝牛煦庭委員"}]}},{"id":"154495","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154495","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd0bc0ad9aeb394c33916d49e9c2c49f91e8e3eb0bf88d021cc9aefdf55a054d255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:23:05 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的申請家庭幫傭的這些標準最近還有一個年輕人跟我講"},{"start":198.817,"end":212.764,"text":"他說他的太太馬上要生三胎了我說很好啊我覺得在這個少子化的過程裡面我只到覺得年輕人願意生小孩願意生到第二個願意生到第三個我都覺得政府應該頒獎狀給他才對然後他就跟我抱怨他說因為呢即便是他的太太即將要生小孩可是因為好像他的這個老大已經到6歲了"},{"start":228.683,"end":229.003,"text":"王鴻薇議員王鴻薇議員"},{"start":250.339,"end":269.755,"text":"要怎麼樣的方式我們才能夠申請到呢你可能要有兩個兩歲以下的子女你要去照顧一個兩個兩歲以下子女應該很辛苦了吧不行你還要再加上一個78歲以上的長者你才能夠申請到然後我另外一個案例那你要同時有一歲三歲五歲可以了吧"},{"start":280.384,"end":305.99,"text":"對不要說對一個媽媽了父母加起來有時候有公公婆婆來幫一歲三歲五歲是不是很辛苦想也知道很辛苦我自己有三個小孩我還好我的三個小孩都長大了我看到這個我都覺得他們很辛苦你能申請到嗎不行還是沒有辦法達到你還要加一個79歲以上長者"},{"start":308.305,"end":334.211,"text":"也就是說如果你家裡有長者要同時你有小孩的話你看這樣的狀況你才能夠申請到無怪乎現在我們有這麼多的這個年輕的夫婦不願生小孩他怎麼辦呢剛才也有特別提到說如果啊我們這樣子的開放的話可能對於健康的老人會被排斥什麼叫做健康的老人"},{"start":338.516,"end":338.836,"text":"王鴻薇議員王鴻薇議員"},{"start":359.52,"end":384.802,"text":"你放心讓他在家裡你放心如果你家裡是沒有電梯的對不起很多都沒有電梯對不對他隨時隨地上下樓梯他就跌倒了他可能到超市他突然走不出超市來這樣的狀況請問一下你作為人子女你覺得你該怎麼照顧他你放心讓他一個人嗎你該怎麼辦"},{"start":388.938,"end":400.324,"text":"辭職在家嗎我真的有很多朋友為了要照顧他的父母最後我都覺得他好優秀但他沒有辦法他說沒有辦法這樣子的民眾他該怎麼辦所以當你講說健康老人會排斥有時候我在想為什麼八十兩秒這麼困難好 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要研議改善方案中上所述我強力的支持原住民不在籍投票必須先行我有呼籲內政部還有中選會應該要儘速研議原住民不在籍投票先行的方案"},{"start":297.998,"end":325.117,"text":"因為上述提到的不管是投票秘密﹐一任限制的缺失﹐我們可以利用原住民不在籍投票的制度來解決﹐這既可以處理投開票所設置不良的問題﹐也可以節省原住民立委補選的行政費用﹐更可以幫助族人省去投票的時候的交通成本﹐以及訂票的困境﹐"},{"start":325.837,"end":343.235,"text":"最後我也請在場的各位專家學者也能夠共同來支持來實質保障憲法賦予原住民族的參政權益當然我剛剛聽到了非常多的專家學者對於原住民的選舉制度上有了非常多的支持跟反應在這裡謝謝你們"},{"start":345.998,"end":346.298,"text":"高金素梅"}]}},{"id":"154487","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154487","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bde305639303642d42bbafa62845183024e8e3eb0bf88d021cefa4b89b7a34049c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:06:44 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11:13:15","影片長度":"00:06:31","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」案。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案。\n三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T11:06:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:13:15+08:00","duration":391,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":637,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時6分）謝謝主席，是不是有請我們外交部次長？"],["主席：請次長。"],["陳次長立國：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，最近蒙古、外蒙，不應該說它是外蒙，現在它是叫蒙古國，最近這樣一個國家在立法院鬧了很多笑話，甚至還說蒙古還是中華民國的一部分，這個完全是昧於國際事實。基本上，今年6月5號的時候，烏蘭巴托駐臺的貿易經濟代表處特木爾有來跟我見面，他有強調臺灣人入境蒙古已經可以透過網路申請電子簽證，也就是E-VISA，對應的，蒙古人來到臺灣還是沒有辦法有E-VISA這樣一個交流，基於平等互惠的原則，是不是我們應該評估一下，對蒙古也應該開放E-VISA電子簽證呢？"],["陳次長立國：報告委員，的確，蒙方對於這個議題一直在遊說我們，所以他跟委員提報這樣的事情，我們也覺得說，這個事情一直在評估當中，但是因為我們有含括了很多各種的考量，目前是還沒有做出最後決定的階段。"],["蔡委員易餘：還沒有做出決定，所以這個考量主要是在哪些層次上？"],["陳次長立國：主要當然是因為我們跟蒙古的關係，雖然包括文化、觀光等很多的層面都有進展沒有錯，但是因為蒙古所處的地緣位置，它跟中國、俄羅斯其實都是必須要注重他們這兩個鄰國的關係，而他們來臺灣一些交流的目的，當然除了觀光以外，也可能有其他如果涉及到包括我們的國安，包括我們其他各個層面的考量，所以目前跨部會……"],["蔡委員易餘：有國安的考量，當然這部分我就不方便過問。"],["陳次長立國：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上，臺灣跟蒙古的交流是很深厚的，蒙古他們的檢察官基本上都是來臺灣受訓一段時間，然後再回到蒙古去做檢察官職務的執行……"],["陳次長立國：是，所以的確我剛剛有提到各方面……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我們臺灣跟蒙古有太多的交流，包括在整個醫療方面，也是有很深的交流。此外，大概蒙古對於臺灣是有一些期待，這些期待包括希望把蒙古這樣的字眼，可以從我們的憲法中移開，但是這一部分涉及到修憲，他們也是尊重我們臺灣的政治環境，但是在E-VISA這一塊，基於平等互惠，我想外交部應該再評估看看，好不好？"],["陳次長立國：我們會努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。下一個問題，次長，你知道臺灣跟日本最近的地方在哪裡？"],["陳次長立國：是不是那個……我不是亞太專家，跟日本……是不是宮古島？還是沖繩還是那霸……"],["蔡委員易餘：與那國。"],["陳次長立國：與那國，我剛剛沒看到你嘴型。"],["蔡委員易餘：跟與那國大概就是臺灣跟澎湖的兩倍距離，臺灣跟澎湖大概是59公里，跟與那國大概110公里，游錫堃前院長不斷地在推動臺灣跟與那國的直航，所以在他任內有成功一次性的直航，但是那個一次性的直航事實上對於……因為與那國在日本的那霸省Okinawa，所以等於它要把它的海關調來與那國，才有辦法讓我們直航的人從與那國直接入境。但是與那國這個島很特別，它跟臺灣這麼近，日本人事實上都說這個島跟日本太遠、跟臺灣太近，所以與那國島的日本人說臺語耶！"],["陳次長立國：會通喔？"],["蔡委員易餘：臺語很通的啦！他們那邊都說臺語啦！我現在一直在想說我們能不能透過外交部來遊說，來跟日本這邊溝通，能不能讓與那國的海關、他們的關口變成常態化？臺灣人到與那國不管是直航後的交流，一定是非常的興盛，因為你看臺灣人到澎湖現在大概1個半小時就到了，所以到與那國3個小時就到了，早上7點出發，中午就可以在日本吃午餐。"],["陳次長立國：坐船嗎？"],["蔡委員易餘：坐船啊！現在因為沒有直航，我們現在要去與那國要怎麼去，你知道嗎？我們必須要先坐飛機到Okinawa，然後再轉機到與那國，就是因為要入境的這個問題，當然這個不是我們國內的問題，我們國內是有這樣的期待。但是看起來日本可能會擔心與那國的國民可能會比較愛臺灣，感覺臺灣比較好，說他們要當臺灣人，這個我不知道啦！過去與那國曾經有這樣的一個倡議，他們要加入臺灣。不管，我是覺得來推動，如果臺灣可以跟與那國直航，與那國這邊如果可以開放讓臺灣人可以直接入境，我覺得對於我們臺日間的交流，又在這麼近的距離裡面，會是一個很棒的交流，我覺得外交部可以去努力看看，好不好？"],["陳次長立國：好，謝謝委員的建議，我們來努力看看。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，加油，謝謝。"],["陳次長立國：謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：首航要找我去。"],["主席：我就要替你說這句話，如果建立關卡首航的話，我們就跨委員會邀請蔡易餘委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，感恩。"],["主席：蒙古的e通關有的話，你也跑一下蒙古。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我8月去。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。","今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有黃仁委員、林岱樺委員、張嘉郡委員、楊瓊瓔委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報。相關機關以書面於兩週內答復聯席會各委員，並副知聯席會；另外有口頭約定的時間，以口頭約定時間為準。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1","speakers":["王定宇","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","羅美玲","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝委員的建議我們來努力看看"},{"start":377.21,"end":378.171,"text":"好、好、好、好、好、好、好、好、"}]}},{"id":"154484","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154484","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd518df126b9d265c3bbafa62845183024e8e3eb0bf88d021cf2397eb0f42835a15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:58:56 - 11:06:10","影片長度":"00:07:14","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」案。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案。\n三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:58:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T11:06:10+08:00","duration":434,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":607,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時58分）請外交部次長及拉美司副司長。"],["主席：請。"],["陳次長立國：委員早安。"],["陳委員冠廷：早。次長，美國陸軍戰爭學院拉丁美洲研究所教授艾里斯有說，中國近期透過瓜地馬拉的媒體人士，用非常豪華的旅遊去換取他發言比較親中、比較仇臺的言論。我想請教，這種試圖要影響臺灣跟瓜地馬拉的關係部分，大家有沒有掌握到？"],["陳次長立國：有，謝謝，我們這一部分一直持續都在努力地掌握當中。"],["陳委員冠廷：這一些具體其實很明顯，就是開始已經直接進入他們的媒體群，甚至透過社群網路，在做影響我國跟我們所剩不多邦交國邦誼的狀況之下，我們有什麼反制的措施？"],["陳次長立國：跟委員報告，目前我們在邦交國固邦的措施方面，不只行政部門、國會、智庫、媒體、意見領袖，還有包括地方政府，其實如果是我們能夠握的手，能夠接觸的對象，只要能夠有助於我們鞏固邦交，我們幾乎都是竭盡全力，希望能夠把這些關鍵的、可以讓我們的邦交能夠更鞏固的，都會努力去做，當然包括對於中國步步進逼的訊息、這些情報的蒐集，也是我們重要的工作之一。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以這一些媒體人士到中國落地招待之後，你有沒有比對他前後之間的對話？前後之間在社群媒體的發言？前後之間在他所屬的這些節目的內容呢？"],["陳次長立國：最主要，是不是每一個案例都有這樣做，我們不敢特別的保證，但是委員剛剛特別提到一個重點，如果他是真正可以產生意見的，整個趨勢跟導向可以改變的話，當然我們要注意而且要防範，而且我們不是只有注意他的動向，我們也有我們的反制措施，包括我們也有我們可以去協助的這些，比如智庫、媒體或者是學者，他們也可以幫我們講話，包括投書等等，所以您剛剛所提的這個部分，我們當然以後會繼續加強瞭解、判別。"],["陳委員冠廷：除了固邦，另外一個很重要的就是榮邦，我記得林佳龍部長在宣誓的時候有說，不僅要固邦還要榮邦，所以相關包含中國在拉丁美洲地區的步步進逼，針對我們重要的邦交國或前邦交國，如何確保我們的外交利益不用受到傷害，我認為ODA是一個方式，可不可以具體說明一下我們最近在拉丁美洲一些相關ODA的項目？"],["陳次長立國：最主要我想在……"],["陳委員冠廷：類型就好，不用給我細節。"],["陳次長立國：是，在拉丁美洲地區，我們在每一個邦交國，甚至不只是邦交國，我們都有派遣包括農業、工業、醫療、資訊、人道、婦女、賦權、青年、教育等等各種各樣的計畫，但是我們林部長最近所揭櫫的所謂榮邦，其實就是要借重，不僅是讓我們的友邦跟我們的關係更加鞏固，而且它長期的永續發展，它的產業發展，還有社會的韌性等等各個層面，就我們具有優勢的地方，包括作為他們任何產業的健檢體質，還有對於未來發展某種尖端科技產業，他們有什麼切入點，這些都是我們現在在努力的目標。也就是說，在民主同盟跟所謂經貿外交這三管齊下的策略方面，在拉丁美洲，比如在巴拉圭，我們可以做5G、可以做電動車、可以有科學園區等等，這些都是因為我們過去有成功發展的經驗，其實也就是我們最專長的地方，也是可以有貢獻的地方。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個我要特別再補充，你剛剛講到5G、講到電動車，這些是我們專長的地方，如果我們沒辦法做出差異化的話，我們的量絕對是輸給中國。"],["陳次長立國：當然。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為他們會在瓜地馬拉，也會在巴拉圭，做你上述所提到的事情，只不過它是我們量的3倍到5倍，甚至10倍，所以這個部分我希望可以具體思考一下，怎麼樣透過包含GCTF的跨國、相關的合作，不要只有我們一個人單打獨鬥，不要我們一個人重新發明輪子這樣……"],["陳次長立國：事實上，我們跟很多理念相近國家，包括美國、日本，還有其他歐盟等等，都有在一起共同努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：非常好，因為有些拉丁美洲國家跟我們的理念一點都不相近，所以，就算用不同的方式還是要接觸，因為我們不僅是價值外交，我們也是透過實力達成和平，所以不管是在拉美、在太平洋的諸島國都一樣，我們還是要用這樣的方式，好，謝謝外交部。","接著我們請農業部的漁業署署長。"],["張署長致盛：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：署長，可不可以大致簡單說明目前臺灣這些漁業補貼措施的方向？"],["張署長致盛：我們目前漁業補貼大概分成幾個部分，第一個就是漁船作業的部分，包括用油補貼；另外一個就是漁船作業安全的部分，包括救生衣等等這些相關的補貼；另外一個就是我們在漁業管理上，包括我們補貼一些VMS通訊費用等等相關的，大概就是目前我們幾個主要的方向。"],["陳委員冠廷：簡單來講，大概就是漁業用油，然後所有人的保險，還有AIS或者是船位監測系統（VMS）設備等等，我必須強調，這些補貼我們是完全支持，但是署長，我們目前雖然獲得歐盟取消黃牌，但是我們還是遭美國列入童工或強迫勞動生產的貨品清單裡面，所以我們在輔導的責任上，必須兼顧國家的聲譽還有漁民的權益；漁業業者則是在避免IUU的漁捕強化漁工人權轉移的困境之外，還有一個就是有符合工作人權的新型漁船，但其造價是非常昂貴的，所以我在想，在這一些輔導的方向裡面還是要注重輔導捕魚業者的轉型，所以針對這種新型漁船給予補助，這個方向有沒有在做？"],["張署長致盛：我們目前有兩個舊的漁船的收購計畫，就是把小的船不符合C188規定的整個起居艙作業空間的漁船，我們希望把它收購後讓他去換新的船，這個就符合相關福利的規定。另外，因為配額減少，我們就大船的部分也有在做一些收購，這個大概就是整體的方向。另外，船上起居艙的改善，或者是管理座艙空間的改善，這部分持續都在做。"],["陳委員冠廷：我還是要強調10年前的特宏興遠洋的案件，這是一個非常重要的警惕，所以我們能夠多做就多做。"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝署長。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員，莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員不在。","吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","接下來進行詢答的委員是蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1","speakers":["王定宇","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","羅美玲","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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相關包含在中國在拉丁美洲地區的步步進逼也是我們重要的邦交國或前邦交國嘛是那如何確保我們的外交利益不用受到利害我認為ODA是一個方式各位具體來說明一下我們最近在拉丁美洲的一些相關的ODA的這些項目"},{"start":169.337,"end":194.384,"text":"最主要我想在拉丁在拉丁美洲地區因為我們在每一個邦交國甚至不只邦交國都有派遣包括農業方面公衛醫療資訊還有人道還有婦女婦權青年教育等等各種各樣的這種計劃但是我們林部長最近所這個接觸的這個所謂榮邦其實就是要借重"},{"start":194.924,"end":194.944,"text":"二、審"},{"start":216.907,"end":231.495,"text":"這些都是我們現在在努力的目標也就是說在民主、同盟跟所謂的經貿外交這三個三管旗下的策略方面那在拉丁美洲我們比如說在巴拉圭我們可以坐5G可以坐電動車可以有這個科學園區等等這些都是因為我們過去成功發展的經驗其實就是我們最專長的地方也可以貢獻的地方這個我要特別再補充"},{"start":240.699,"end":265.578,"text":"你剛剛講到五軍講到電動車這些我們專長的地方如果我們沒辦法做出差異化的話那我們的量絕對是輸給中國當然因為他們也在瓜地馬拉也會在巴拉圭做你上訴做的事情只不過是我們量的3倍到5倍甚至是10倍所以這個部分我是希望說可以具體來思考一下怎麼樣透過包含你可以說GCTF的跨國研議的合作不要只有我們一個人單打獨鬥"},{"start":266.459,"end":266.879,"text":"謝謝外交部我們請農業部的漁業署署長"},{"start":304.4,"end":310.086,"text":"委員好。署長可不可以大致簡單說明目前臺灣的這些漁業的補貼措施的方向。"},{"start":313.411,"end":340.058,"text":"我們目前漁業補貼大概分成幾個部分第一個就是漁船作業的部分包括我們的用油補貼另外一個就是漁船作業安全的部分包括救生衣這些相關的補貼另外一個就是我們在漁業管理上包括我們補貼一些VMS的通訊費用這些相關的大概是目前我們這幾個的主要方向我大概簡單講大概就是漁業用油然後所有人的保險那還有AIS或者是船位監測系統VMS設備等等"},{"start":341.558,"end":359.987,"text":"我必須要強調這些補貼我們完全是支持但是組長我們目前雖然獲得歐盟取消黃牌但是我們還是遭美國列入同工與強迫勞動的製品清單裡面所以說我們在輔導的責任必須要兼顧國家的生育還有漁民的權益"},{"start":361.408,"end":361.728,"text":"於是,我們目前有兩個"},{"start":388.621,"end":388.641,"text":"二、審"},{"start":413.402,"end":433.411,"text":"我還是要強調十年前的特洪新遠洋的這個案件那是一個非常重要的警惕那我們能夠多做就多做是好謝謝蘇長好謝謝陳冠廷委員好各位請回接下來進行巡大陸委員莊瑞雄委員莊瑞雄委員莊瑞雄委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員"}]}},{"id":"154482","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154482","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bda9f223124bd7c51abbafa62845183024e8e3eb0bf88d021c2ed63b081278be015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:49:15 - 10:58:35","影片長度":"00:09:20","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」案。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案。\n三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:49:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:58:35+08:00","duration":560,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":535,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時49分）請外交部陳次長跟農業部黃次長。"],["主席：請兩位次長。"],["陳次長立國：洪委員好。"],["黃次長昭欽：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：外交部跟農業部，我們今天要審查這兩個協定跟議定書，當然，這是一個很好的機會，之前其實有幾個在臺的外籍漁工組織有來拜訪我，跟我講到很多關於外籍漁工現在面對到的問題，尤其他們最常面對到的問題當然就是薪資的拖欠，有時候長達3個月、6個月都拿不到薪水，所以我的辦公室其實也常常接到很多NGO請我們幫忙，去協助這些外籍漁工薪水被拖欠的問題，要求漁業署給予協助、處理。也有很多雇主沒有幫外籍漁工保保險，所以當有船員死亡的時候，船員沒有拿到賠償，這都是我自己的辦公室遇到的真實案例。","次長，我們這幾年在遠洋漁業上面，受到國際上面的壓力大不大？"],["黃次長昭欽：報告委員，持續有受到國際上的壓力。"],["洪委員申翰：是，所以不論是2015年被歐盟列入打擊IUU漁業不合作國家的黃牌，或者是2020年、2022年又被美國列入「童工及強迫勞動製品清單」，這次在臺美21世紀貿易協定談判上面，其實我們的遠洋漁業也一直是被關注的對象。我想問次長，知不知道在今年5月的時候，歐盟其實有通過了一個企業永續盡職調查指令，也就是所謂的DD法，你知道嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：是，瞭解。"],["洪委員申翰：目前這個法已經生效了，歐盟這個法其實有很多的專家都提醒，它很可能會衝擊到臺灣的遠洋漁業，我們之前拿掉了歐盟這個IUU的黃牌，但很多人擔心，不用多久，接下來又要面對這個DD法的制裁，這部分我想知道，目前漁業署或外交部有沒有做什麼相關的準備？"],["黃次長昭欽：報告委員，事實上我們現在針對漁業勞動以及人權的這個問題，持續在改善、改進當中，所以基本上像剛剛委員所說的薪資這個部分，我們已經立法，強制要求必須要直接匯入漁工的戶頭，還有相關的這些……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我就直接問，好不好？"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["洪委員申翰：因為我們今天在外交及國防委員會，現在歐盟新立、新通過的這個企業永續盡職調查指令，它已經上路了，農業部有沒有對這個法規進行評估或影響的盤點？"],["黃次長昭欽：我們未來會持續關注這個議題。"],["洪委員申翰：所以還沒做嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["洪委員申翰：還沒做嗎？人家5月就通過，現在7月囉！"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告，有幾個地方要澄清、說明一下。第一個，那個Due Diligence本來就是在我們整個漁業管理的部分，包括漁工的權利保障，本來就要做這些，這是第一個部分……"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["張署長致盛：第二個部分，歐盟初步通過的法案其實是針對大企業的部分……"],["洪委員申翰：對，沒錯。"],["張署長致盛：我們遠洋漁船都是小的漁船，或者是其他，暫時不會受到影響。"],["洪委員申翰：但是你的遠洋漁船接下來如果要把貨賣給大的水產企業的時候，就會面對這些相對應的問題啊！"],["張署長致盛：所以我們現在從幾個面向，Due Diligence去查的幾個部分，包括勞權的部分、漁業管理的部分，我們必須把前端整個做好，才能夠因應後端這些整個的調查……"],["洪委員申翰：是，但是我現在要問的是，現在歐盟剛通過的這個法規，我們有沒有去做相關法規的影響評估或盤點？弄清楚我們現在遠洋漁業的運作方式裡面或模式裡面，哪些部分可能未來會受到影響，這部分農業部有沒有做了？我的問題是這個。"],["張署長致盛：目前評估會委託相關學者專家來做，但是我們內部初步檢視，目前法規會受到影響的部分，我們必須要去強化，或者是管理面的部分，不夠完善的地方、要去強化的地方，這部分我們內部已經做過評估。"],["洪委員申翰：哪些地方會受到影響？"],["張署長致盛：包括比如工時的登記，人家看你到底每天的工作是不是符合那個，我們在這些工時的登記必須更完善。另外，就是整個在保育或者是相關的部分，我們這些法規及文件部分必須更完善，這個以後在……"],["洪委員申翰：署長，你剛才說得沒錯，它可能會針對比較大的這些水產企業，對不對？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：可是我們的這些遠洋漁船是供貨給他們啊！所以還是在一個供應鏈的關係上啊！"],["張署長致盛：沒有錯。"],["洪委員申翰：所以如果它去要求這些大的水產企業的時候，間接還是會影響到我們的遠洋漁業啊！"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告，所以我們在漁業與人權裡面有強調一個部分，就是企業也要一起來做，包括FIP的部分，也就是把前端的管理面做好，日後我們再因應盡職調查的部分就不會受到影響。"],["洪委員申翰：那我直接問次長，好不好？次長……"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["洪委員申翰：因為去年羅秉成政委其實有講到，針對歐盟的企業永續盡職調查指令上路，政府會先研究跟提供相關的指引跟輔導。我想請問，現在農業部或漁業署，目前這個指引跟輔導已經出來了嗎？或者什麼時候會出來？"],["黃次長昭欽：目前指引的草案已經出來了，而且已經經過了幾次會議的溝通，在6月底的時候還會再召開一次……"],["洪委員申翰：6月底過了。"],["黃次長昭欽：在6月底的時候已經有召開過一次，因為相關部分還沒有達到共識，所以我們後續還會再邀集產業界及勞權方面的NGO團體來進行相關的……"],["洪委員申翰：預計什麼時候會出來？"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員申翰：有沒有時間表？"],["張署長致盛：我們次長剛剛所解釋的，就是針對漁船上的管理指引跟Wi-Fi的指引部分，我們在資料蒐集完整以後，近期就會再召開一次會議，我們希望越早越好，因為這事對臺灣來講很重要。另外，我們針對Due Diligence，大概就是不同面向地去盤點法規的完備，這個部分我們會儘速來做。"],["洪委員申翰：剛剛次長講的應該是針對Wi-Fi部分的指引嘛！但我現在講的是針對DD的部分，這部分還沒有開始盤點，對不對？"],["張署長致盛：內部做盤點，還沒有請外部來協助，這部分我們後續會加快腳步。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，什麼時候？給一個時間點吧！我現在講的是針對DD法的部分，什麼時候能夠盤點結束？什麼時候指引跟輔導的措施可以推出？"],["張署長致盛：我們希望做一個務實而且也前瞻的……"],["洪委員申翰：當然、當然，我們都希望務實嘛！"],["張署長致盛：我們希望在年底以前能夠有初步的草案出來。"],["洪委員申翰：年底嗎？年底會不會太久？現在幾月？還有半年，年底？3個月內可不可以？"],["張署長致盛：好，我們盡力。"],["洪委員申翰：3個月內，好，這部分麻煩。主席，我還要再講一個事情。我知道現在在農業部的漁業與人權行動裡面，有講到說要做國際合作部分的深化，裡面有包括跟漁工的來源國要進行相關的合作，我有聽說你們要跟印尼簽署遠洋漁工保護的MOU，這個MOU目前的進展到什麼地方？"],["張署長致盛：目前已經把我們的草案提供給印尼，因為印尼有相關部會在負責勞工的部分，包括駐印尼的代表處也在協助、協商，目前在等印尼方面回饋相關的意見。另外，我要說明……"],["洪委員申翰：署長，這個MOU有沒有邀請我們自己國內的NGO或者是漁工團體一起進來討論？"],["張署長致盛：因為目前我們提出來的部分……"],["洪委員申翰：我聽說印尼給了一個冷屁股啊！"],["張署長致盛：我想不同國家的作業方式不一樣啦！但其實我們產業界，像鮪魚公會，也跟印尼的SPPI這些相關公協會在討論，民間跟政府都會來努力。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，我這邊做一個具體的要求，關於遠洋漁工保護的MOU，是不是可以找我們民間的團體，包括NGO、包括漁工的團體，一起拉進來再重新檢視一遍？到底它的內容符不符合第一線實質的需求，這件事情可不可以？我們就把這部分要再加強的工作給補上，可以嗎？"],["張署長致盛：謝謝委員的建議，不過我要說明，MOU是一個概念性的，而且重點是要雙方同意，而不是我們單方面的……"],["洪委員申翰：當然，可是重點要有效嘛！要能夠處理問題嘛！對不對？重點是這個嘛！"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：所以這可以嗎？"],["張署長致盛：可以，沒有問題。"],["洪委員申翰：好，剛才說到3個月的時間把DD法的相關評估，也包括指引跟輔導的措施要推出，好不好？這沒有問題。"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["洪委員申翰：到時候推出請送外交及國防委員會，也包括經濟委員會，謝謝。"],["張署長致盛：這部分我們會努力，因為還有很多協商細節的部分，我們會來努力。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，各位請回。印尼那個MOU是因為地緣政治問題，還是因為我們的法令不齊全？不用回答，我只提醒你，那個東西要寫清楚，謝謝。","接下來進行詢答的委員，張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","請陳冠廷委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,19-1","speakers":["王定宇","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","羅美玲","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","林楚茵","林憶君","賴瑞隆","馬文君","洪申翰","陳冠廷","蔡易餘","黃仁","林岱樺","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「馬拉喀什世界貿易組織協定修正議定書」及其附件「漁業補貼協定」\n案；二、審查行政院函請審議「中華民國（臺灣）政府部分停止中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共\n和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書」案；三、審查行政院函請審議我國與宏都拉斯共\n和國間自112年12月6日終止「中華民國（臺灣）與薩爾瓦多共和國暨宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協\n定」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":4.1822187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.599718750000001,"end":6.966593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.287218750000001,"end":8.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.89409375,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.193468750000001,"end":22.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.52534375,"end":32.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.03846875,"end":38.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.16409375,"end":43.095968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.55159375,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.24096875,"end":71.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.03221875,"end":79.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.91721875,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.03534375000001,"end":83.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.15721875,"end":83.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.39346875000001,"end":83.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.42721875000001,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.54534375,"end":83.64659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.64659375000001,"end":83.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.84909375000001,"end":95.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.86409375000001,"end":100.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.23471875000001,"end":102.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.93471875,"end":108.92534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.11096875000001,"end":112.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.58721875,"end":112.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.71784375,"end":114.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.67971875,"end":115.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.08471875000001,"end":119.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.77596875,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.28221875000001,"end":129.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.23846875,"end":135.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.80721875,"end":140.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.01284375,"end":163.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.77346875,"end":170.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.14346875,"end":172.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.83096875,"end":178.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.74596875,"end":181.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.78346875,"end":180.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.28096875,"end":182.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.12034375000002,"end":184.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.13721875000002,"end":210.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.83971875,"end":198.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.69534375,"end":204.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.16284375,"end":216.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.47409375,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.77346875,"end":229.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.80721875,"end":217.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.67034375,"end":248.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.97096875000003,"end":264.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.83346875,"end":265.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.96409375,"end":284.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.07096875,"end":293.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.57159375000003,"end":300.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.97971875,"end":302.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.97096875,"end":303.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.96659375,"end":304.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.43909375000004,"end":316.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.03221875,"end":337.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.51284375,"end":318.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.91909375,"end":340.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.51784375,"end":340.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.97346875,"end":341.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.10846875000004,"end":341.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.15909375,"end":351.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.08159375,"end":351.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.73971875,"end":351.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.94221875,"end":351.99284375},{"speake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Diligence本來就是我們在整個做漁業管理的部分,包括漁工權利保重的部分,本來就要做這些部分。對。這大概第一個部分。那第二個部分,歐盟先初步通過的法案其實是針對大企業的部分。對,沒錯。那我們遠洋漁船都是小的那個漁船或者是比較那個。但是你的遠洋漁船,"},{"start":211.013,"end":234.909,"text":"接下來如果他把貨賣給大的水產企業的時候就會面對這個相對應的問題啊所以我們現在從幾個面向Duty你僅是他去查的幾個部分包括勞犬的部分包括這個漁業管理的部分我們必須把這個前端整個做好我們才能夠因應後端這些整個的調查是但是我現在要問的是說現在歐盟剛通過的這個法規我們有沒有去做相關的法規的影響評估或盤點"},{"start":237.21,"end":264.002,"text":"弄清楚我們可能現在我們的遠洋漁業的運作的方式裡面或模式裡面哪些部分可能未來會受到影響這部分農業部有沒有做了嗎?我的問題是這個嘛目前評估正在會委託相關學者專家來做但是我們內部初步檢視我們目前的法規會受到影響的部分我們必須要去強化或者是管理面的部分不過完善的地方要去強化的地方這個我們內部已經做過評估"},{"start":264.642,"end":292.434,"text":"那哪些地方會受到影響?包括我們比如說公使的登記啊公使的登記人家看你說你到底每天的工作是不是符合那個我們必須在這些公使的登記必須更完善那另外就是整個在保育啊或者是相關的部分我們這些法規的部分文件的部分必須更完善蘇洋你剛才說的沒錯他可能會針對比較是大的這些水產企業對不對可是我們的這些遠洋漁船是供貨給他們啊"},{"start":293.695,"end":302.802,"text":"所以你還是在一個供應鏈的關係上啊沒有錯所以如果他去要求這大的水產企業的時候間接的還是會影響到我們的遠洋漁業啊"},{"start":305.169,"end":322.468,"text":"所以我們在漁業與人權裏面有強調一個就是企業也要一起來做包括FIP的部分就是把前端這個管理面做好日後我們再因應這個禁止調查的部分就不會受到影響我直接問次長好不好次長我想問因為之前去年羅振偉有講到羅秉成政委其實有講到"},{"start":325.07,"end":351.526,"text":"針對歐盟的這個切永續禁止調查指令的上路那政府會先研究跟提供相關的指引跟輔導那我想問現在農業部或漁業署那目前這個指引跟輔導已經出來了嗎或什麼時候會出來目前指引的草案已經出來了而且已經經過了幾次會議的這樣的一個溝通那在六月底的時候還會再召開一次六月底過了"},{"start":353.027,"end":353.467,"text":"那預計什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":368.84,"end":396.149,"text":"跟委員報告有沒有時間表我們次長剛剛所解釋的就是針對漁船上的管理指引跟Wi-Fi的指引這部分我們大概近期資料收集完整以後近期就會再召開一次會議我們希望越早越好因為這是大概對臺灣來講很重要那另外我們針對due diligence大概就是不同面向的去盤點法規的完備那這個部分我們希望剛剛次長講的應該是針對Wi-Fi的部分的指引嘛但我現在講的是針對DD的部分的話那這部分還沒有開始盤點嘛對不對"},{"start":398.389,"end":423.354,"text":"內部做盤點還沒有請外部來協助。那這個我們後期再加快調某。需要什麼時候給一個時間點吧。什麼時候,我現在講的是針對滴滴法的部分。什麼時候能夠盤點結束?什麼時候指引跟輔導的措施可以推出?我們希望做一個務實而且也前瞻的。當然當然,我們都希望務實嘛。年底以前能夠有初步的查案能夠出來。年底嗎?年底會不會太久?現在幾月了?現在還有半年了,年底。三個月內可不可以?"},{"start":424.638,"end":449.034,"text":"好,我們盡力三個月內,好,那這部分麻煩,那我後面那個主席我再講一個事情喔我知道現在在農業部的業與人權行動裡面有講到說要做國際合作的部分的深化那你們有包括跟漁工的來源國要進行相關的合作我有聽說你們在這個要跟印尼簽署遠洋漁工保護的MOU那這個MOU目前的進展到什麼地方"},{"start":450.645,"end":477.728,"text":"目前我們已經把我們的草案提供給印尼那因為印尼他有相關部位在負責這個勞工的部分那目前包括駐印尼的代表處也在協助、協商那目前在等印尼方面的回饋相關的意見我想這個MOU有沒有邀請我們自己國內的NGO或者是漁工團體一起進來討論因為目前我們提出來的部分我聽說印尼"},{"start":479.261,"end":479.281,"text":"二、審"},{"start":500.742,"end":500.762,"text":"二、審"},{"start":530.612,"end":548.126,"text":"是所以這可以嗎?可以啊沒有問題那這個剛才說到兩個月的三個月的時間把滴滴法的相關的評估也包括指引輔導的措施要推出好不好這沒有問題那到時候推出的請送外交國防委員會也包括經濟委員會因為還有很多協商細節的部分我們會來努力好謝謝紅三二委員來各位請回"},{"start":557.076,"end":560.283,"text":"那個印尼那個MOU是因為地緣政治問題"}]}},{"id":"154481","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154481","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd795dbdf7e253690f916d49e9c2c49f91e8e3eb0bf88d021c2cf89a319f4586af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:52:41 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10:54:52","影片長度":"00:05:44","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會公聽會（事由：「公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-03","start_time":"2024-07-03T10:49:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-03T10:54:52+08:00","duration":344,"features":["ai-transcript"],"meet":{"sessionPeriod":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"公聽會-2024062802","type":"公聽會","title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會公聽會（事由：「公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進」公聽會）"},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.55409375,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.640968750000003,"end":164.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.35534375,"end":168.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.81471875,"end":197.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.87346875,"end":204.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.60659375,"end":255.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.65909375,"end":247.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.88971875000001,"end":302.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.83596875,"end":303.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.74721875,"end":305.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.31221875,"end":309.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.77159375,"end":335.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.99096875000004,"end":340.33221875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.84,"end":24.413,"text":"好主席還有在場所有的專家學者大家好那我今天除了說代表立法委員來發表意見之外因為我也算是一個過來人啦算是唯一一個台灣政治史上是不同意罷免票大於同意罷免票的一個經驗者來跟大家分享那大家立法院除了韓國瑜黃國昌還有我我們三位都是現任有經歷過罷免經驗的過來人那在這邊分享一下我的看法"},{"start":28.996,"end":39.644,"text":"第一個啦就是從世界上的民主國家來看現在大概有75個民主國家裡面有20幾個國家擁有罷免制度那在美國其實50個州裡面有19個州是可以罷免州長以及議員的所以其實大家在討論說台灣到底需不需要罷免制度我覺得都可以討論因為在每個國家的罷免制度其實都有點不一樣這個細談下去是非常非常複雜的那什麼樣的制度是好"},{"start":56.135,"end":74.086,"text":"我認為民主制度沒有說在哪一個制度一定是最好而是因應這個國家需要的民主的設計都可以來做門檻的上修或下修以及更複雜的包括說行政首長可不可以罷免包括說民意代表可不可以罷免這個其實細談下去有非常多不同種細緻的"},{"start":76.547,"end":102.557,"text":"在這邊我必須要問一下說就是我們要的到底是哪一種罷免這個很值得大家深思包括說要的是美國式的罷免還是英國式的罷免因為其實台灣比較類似美國式的罷免那後者是在特定條件下才能罷免例如說這個政治人物他涉及內線交易涉及貪污涉及炒股等等那他才會有特定的啟動的罷免的條件"},{"start":103.957,"end":108.198,"text":"那還有剛剛說的就是到底因為以台灣來說行政首長跟民意代表負責的權利義務其實不太一樣那很多國家其實是針對行政首長因為他擁有執行執政的實權所以才可以發動這個罷免的條件那台灣的現在的這個狀態其實是因為是一概同人"},{"start":128.244,"end":143.553,"text":"所以其實應該要再去針對他的權利義務做更細緻的設計這個我也都認同那當然還有的國家例如說瑞士他是可以罷免不分區的可以針對不分區用集體式的罷免制度我認為這個也可以提出來討論所以當然在這麼多複雜的罷免的制度的設計之下台灣現在單一就只有提高罷免的門檻"},{"start":154.659,"end":158.881,"text":"而且是為特定的政黨量身訂做的我認為是非常粗糙﹑非常廉價﹑也非常沒有正當性的一個修法那再來這個直接提到說罷免的門檻因為有人說罷免的門檻這麼低就是沒有選上的人只要基本盤發動了就可以罷免"},{"start":176.727,"end":183.312,"text":"這些主張罷免很容易的人 他們都是假設說最後就會變成政黨的對決那我以自己的經驗為例 當初的通過的門檻大概是七萬兩千票但是當時候的鳳山的議員選舉 就是國民黨要罷免我的對方的這一黨 他們拿了九萬票"},{"start":197.964,"end":201.086,"text":"如果他們的假設是說對方的政黨都會發動他們的基本盤來發動其實我就會被罷免了什麼意思呢就是說這個罷免的門檻不能單一的就說政黨對決來看待我認為這個前提非常非常的重要是因為說其實人民都知道說罷免的正當性比一般選舉還要高"},{"start":220.919,"end":244.347,"text":"就是他要有一個我真的很想要把你罷下來的理由以及這個人真的很不適任人民才會驅動這個罷免的投票的動力而不是說就是四年一次的選舉投票因為如果真的他這麼不滿意他就是四年再把你換掉就好所以罷免的發動的這個機制其實是需要一個正當性的正當性變得非常非常重要所以"},{"start":244.747,"end":248.51,"text":"以我的例子為例現在為了要保障特定的政黨他們覺得罷免太容易而去拉高這個門檻是真的非常沒有正當性的"},{"start":255.95,"end":277.086,"text":"好那再來我認為說這個罷免的成功啊成功與否還是在於說能否成功動員多數的中間的選民就是說大家的正當性到底多數的民眾覺得這個人真的是非常不適應已經影響到我生活的權益所以站出來罷免還有被罷免人他自己的表現也非常重要"},{"start":277.786,"end":301.188,"text":"以我自己的例子來說我當時的罷免理由幾乎都是虛假的內容錯假的內容包括說什麼我違反香港的國安法那其實根本就第一個香港的國安法與台灣不適用而台灣的國安法也沒有所謂的21條所以它的這個內容與現實是直接是不相符的那所以用這樣子的罷免理由多數的民眾當然就不會認同嘛"},{"start":307.386,"end":327.017,"text":"最後我必須要講一下說這個罷免的門檻他是一個公共議題可以討論但是不能把公共的議題變成是幫特定的政黨來解套如果只是因為罷免很容易所以就要提高門檻這樣的理由真的真的非常的不充分千萬不要讓這個罷免是"},{"start":328.738,"end":328.958,"text":"接下來我們請張博洋議員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}