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是說憲法訴訟法怎麼規定那當然我們就照怎麼規定嘛對不對它裡面有憲法訴訟法裡面有這個"},{"start":3431.414,"end":3440.018,"text":"四個申請機關申請人代表加三個申請代理人過去五八五很多我都去過那過去就這樣"},{"start":3458.052,"end":3483.413,"text":"所以這是事件奇葩啦事件奇葩因為事件奇葩的時候它變成就是說大法官在處理這個的時候也會考慮到公平性也就是說申請人現在有有民進黨黨團有行政院有總統府那現在又增加人選台所以有申請人有四個四個在金融代表"},{"start":3484.676,"end":3490.175,"text":"那另外一個另外一個就是說我們立委員是當事者"},{"start":3491.88,"end":3519.48,"text":"那也要派人去嘛,因為兩兆才能夠來憲法庭去論告吧。那我們面對的是第一個是什麼?是暫時處分程序的裁定,那在七月十號很快就到了,八月六號就是原則被論的,那整天一整天的。那七月十號它的程序性我們看了一下大概就是這樣啦,七月十號程序性就是說,你四個機關給你三十分鐘,"},{"start":3520.566,"end":3545.388,"text":"你四個機關請做七分半,你們自己去調然後四個機關裡面要一個獎或幾個獎,那是你們當然是讓你四個機關共用三十分鐘的時間那立法院這邊,立法院它表示對立法院照的尊重也是三十分鐘那立法院怎麼派?當然有立法院的機關代表"},{"start":3546.604,"end":3561.38,"text":"乃至於人才身家自動代理人。」因為完全法庭化的嘛。他說要給市立法院幾個新聞代表,那是等一下我們看他怎麼回嘛。所以,不管誰。"},{"start":3563.689,"end":3587.462,"text":"緊急暫時處分和實體事件都一定有機會代表。」所以我今天早上看了黃莊委員開記者會說怎麼立法院怎麼沒有機會代表?這個是有所誤解。因為先往事完也緊急來訪了嘛,等下大家看文嘛。第二個,他的程序只有30分鐘。"},{"start":3589.042,"end":3607.431,"text":"然後還有一個中途,一個上午就結束了。現在一個早上,接下來有一個中途,有現在所有的大法官,他問誰就問誰,他可以問申請方,也可以問居民代表,他要問誰就要去,因為這個不是"},{"start":3608.857,"end":3636.985,"text":"叫他結婚的他是法官他在審議他自己指揮訴訟他可以問誰他可以問誰他把這個這個因為一個總統把這個問完以後他們當何怡婷他自己會裁定這個是隨時就如此將來實體的憲法八月一號也是這樣所以我們今天要面對就是說法怎麼規定我們就照法來但是呢以這一張的這樣的寫法"},{"start":3639.004,"end":3662.5,"text":"機關代表所有地方全部完全排除民進黨這也不對因為立法院不是只有國民黨、民眾黨、兩黨只有三黨同時這個地方我們也應該派機關代表機關代表所以這個部分大家等一下來好好討論一下到底立法院要不要派機關代表那派機關代表當然是秘書長嘛因為有很多"},{"start":3665.14,"end":3683.499,"text":"其實申請的時候有很多程序性違憲要緊急處分,我們都有提不然說實際的或是暫時處分的,我們都有對於程序性違憲提出我們的看法,大概是這樣謝謝柯總召,國民黨團請發言,民眾黨團請準備"},{"start":3689.684,"end":3712.372,"text":"院長我想先針對民進黨團到底能不能推派訴訟代理人這一點我們表示有本黨團的意見我想基於這個利益衝突迴避的原則剛才柯總長講說不應該排除民進黨來指推派訴訟代理人我想這一點完全違反利益衝突迴避的一個原則"},{"start":3714.072,"end":3729.622,"text":"因為民進黨團這次是主張立法院三讀通過法律違憲的申請人所以基於利益衝突迴避的原則當然民進黨你不可能是訴訟當事人你是原告那你又是被告"},{"start":3730.817,"end":3737.74,"text":"中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案"},{"start":3753.047,"end":3773.581,"text":"所以這是一個非常矛盾衝突的一個法律原則非常清楚就是民進黨應該要做利益迴避的所以我想幹議院的我們的一個建議就是說由國民黨兩位民眾黨一位這樣來推派訴訟代理人這完全符合法律的原理原則以上謝謝謝謝國民黨團歡迎請民眾黨團歡迎民進黨團請準備"},{"start":3779.707,"end":3785.896,"text":"二、跟院長還有各黨團的代表先說明一下第一個事情是說"},{"start":3787.709,"end":3811.046,"text":"因為我們一開始的時候從媒體上面所看到的憲法法庭的通知書那個時候申請人是由立法委員柯建銘等51人還有行政院以及總統賴清德這個是第一份他們的通知書"},{"start":3813.018,"end":3833.749,"text":"那第一份的通知書老實說我們藉由媒體看到裡面的內容的時候有一點驚訝為什麼說驚訝因為在那個通知的事項裡面他是通知本院委任訴訟代理人三個人要我們呈報然後下禮拜三去進行準備程序"},{"start":3835.339,"end":3859.277,"text":"那個時候我看到了這份通知書的內容我非常的驚訝我非常的驚訝因為在憲法訴訟當中基本上有中立的憲法法庭有申請人有相對人申請人跟相對的機關依照憲法訴訟法的規定都是當事人"},{"start":3860.76,"end":3888.587,"text":"當事人在憲法訴訟程序當中本來就有聽審權的正當法律程序保障怎麼會憲法司法院通知本院的時候只有訴訟代理人而沒有所謂的機關代表這不僅僅是違反了目前在憲法訴訟法裡面"},{"start":3890.678,"end":3906.139,"text":"對於當事人的這個概念因為我再強調一次依照憲法訴訟法規定很清楚申請人跟相對的機關都稱為當事人在憲法訴訟法當中當事人的這個概念出現在非常多的地方"},{"start":3907.28,"end":3930.156,"text":"當事人的這一個身份享有程序上面各式各樣聽審權的保障跟正當法律程序的保障所以我當初看到了憲法法庭的這份通知書的時候我覺得非常的驚訝怎麼會沒有當事人的代表只有訴訟代理人呢這是一件非常奇怪的事情那因此"},{"start":3931.016,"end":3960.145,"text":"我才對外說憲法法庭這樣子的一個通知恐怕是有問題的因為不管是依照憲法訴訟法施行以前那個時候依照大審法的規定大法官審理案件法的規定所實際上面實踐的結果當本院是相對的機關的時候本院過去事實上也有派代表"},{"start":3961.161,"end":3987.679,"text":"出席。不管是在相關的大法官的會議結事當中本院事實上都有派代表出席所以我才做這樣子提出這樣的懷疑那剛剛院長又發了一份新的憲法法庭的通知書那這份新的憲法法庭的通知書我看應該是今天才收文"},{"start":3988.84,"end":3998.021,"text":"也就是憲法法庭今天才發通知給本院那今天發通知給本院的時候他裡面的說明事項就改了"},{"start":3999.124,"end":4023.74,"text":"他在裡面的說明事項今天所補發的另外一份通知書當中說明及注意事項的第二點他就改變了之前前一份通知書的內容了因為前一份通知書是沒有提到本院可以派代表但是在這一份今天早上本院所剛剛收到的通知書上面"},{"start":4025.463,"end":4052.43,"text":"四、貴院經憲法法庭指定為上開聲請案的相關機關請於準備程序由機關代表至多三人、協同訴訟代理人至多三人到庭參與準備程序。今天來的這份通知書就比較符合我們目前憲法訴訟法的規定相對的機關作為當事人當事人當然有聽審請求權"},{"start":4054.39,"end":4076.901,"text":"當然應該有機會到憲法法庭去表述意見除了當事人的代表以外還有訴訟代理人今天這一份的通知書今天早上這份的通知書才去免除掉了上一份的通知書只要我們判訴訟代理人的缺憾"},{"start":4078.602,"end":4107.277,"text":"第二個部分針對剛剛院長所提議在本院所推派的代表院長所提議的是向臺灣民眾黨黨團競表同意因為在整個憲法訴訟的三角結構當中今天民主進步黨由柯建銘等51位委員他們事實上是居於什麼?聲請人的位置"},{"start":4109.502,"end":4131.016,"text":"在憲法訴訟的兩照對立的結構當中我們是相對機關申請人如果還可以推派代表參與相對人所推派出來的機關代表那基本上是根本破壞了兩照的結構那進一步的問題是說在這個具體的憲法爭議上面"},{"start":4138.021,"end":4160.88,"text":"申請人的位置跟申請人的主張相對人的位置跟相對人的主張本來就處於兩照對立結構的狀態因此依照今天院長所做的建議才是符合目前憲法訴訟法他所規範的意旨"},{"start":4161.724,"end":4178.878,"text":"那否則的話,申請人還可以去決定相對人他所要提出的主張以及各式各樣在憲法訴訟上面的供給防禦事實上是一件非常荒謬的事情那以上是我們的見解,謝謝請民進黨黨團發言好,請吳思瑤幹事長謝謝"},{"start":4191.81,"end":4207.023,"text":"我想就針對今天討論的這個代表機關代表的部分來表達我的看法針對剛剛這個玉女的結論當然我們也認同說還沒有協商之前先有一個玉女的結論似乎就已經"},{"start":4207.803,"end":4228.2,"text":"對於院長的立場或是所謂機關代表立法院的立場都已經先做了預設我覺得這是完全不必要的預設前提這不利於我們開放性的來討論這個真的也希望未來可以來檢視那我分幾個面向來分享我的觀點就是說機關代表的立場是什麼"},{"start":4229.381,"end":4245.873,"text":"就我認為立法院是一個國家的憲政機關立法院的機關代表在任何的議案上他都應當是一個中性的、中立的機關代表因為憲法法庭受理的像我們這一類都是法規範的憲法法庭的審議"},{"start":4247.094,"end":4266.699,"text":"他在處理的會有各種的法規範今天可能是國會擴權法案剛好是一個比較有剛剛黃國昌委員講的他認定的良造對立可能在不同的法案議案申請法規範的憲法法庭的時候各政黨的意見是可能今天是國眾在一起可能下一次是民進黨跟"},{"start":4267.839,"end":4272.345,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":4284.722,"end":4299.034,"text":"所以才會主張說機關代表應當就是譬如說我們的秘書長或是院長或者是我們議事處的代表我不知道就是說是一個機關的代表當然我們也希望院長就應當是一個議事中立的代表這我要再次強調"},{"start":4300.27,"end":4316.907,"text":"那我剛剛一直等一下可以請秘書長說明一下因為我在立法院也許比較之前我所印象所及的這個319證調會的時候那時候也是憲法法庭也是會請立法院派機關代表的那個時候立法院是沒有派"},{"start":4317.708,"end":4342.355,"text":"那我不知道當時有沒有草野協商怎麼去做成這個決定這樣那我也現在試圖在找譬如說我印象所及以前的法規範的這種申請應當也都會邀請立法院派機關代表嗎那過去有依不同的法規範的這個本身政黨的立場不同而先去切割了所謂的兩造嗎"},{"start":4344.023,"end":4356.595,"text":"過去會這樣做嗎?」例如說在戶籍法案賴子文的那個案子會因為先預設了那時候民進黨跟國民黨立場也不一樣來切分機關代表"},{"start":4358.002,"end":4376.842,"text":"三條條文修正草案的相對性。」我覺得這個是很有問題的因為任何的議案未來都有可能當然我們希望國會大家都是充分的自治我們在做出任何的立法修法都不要違逆憲法的精神但如果都會有涉及這樣子的違憲的風險爭議才會去送憲法法庭"},{"start":4379.725,"end":4407.974,"text":"但未來極有可能不同的法案的本身可能要送大法官解釋的時候難道都要依那個議案本身哪些政黨的立場不同而去切分嗎這個是一個知識體大的事情所以我們才會認為說兩個方式嘛我個人認為這不是一個結論機關代表就是要中性的那中性的要嘛就都是我們的機關代表就是我們的這個國家公務體系的這個機關代表"},{"start":4410.114,"end":4437.005,"text":"或者是慰求公正你的機關代表你不能排除任何一個政黨對不對這才是一個均等所以我覺得這個就要去預設在面對憲法法庭的時候當然這個案子國會擴選的法案裡頭是國眾本身是一個一方民進黨是一方那民進黨剛好是這個"},{"start":4438.834,"end":4440.495,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":4455.53,"end":4471.363,"text":"這個以後就都很有問題第二個我也要挑戰如果我再次說立法院應當是一個中立的機關它對於任何議案都不應當有它的立場的判斷今天在面對憲法法庭要求立法院派的這個機關代表"},{"start":4473.755,"end":4501.838,"text":"如果如韓院長你們所擬出來的今天就已經是機關代表裡頭排除了民進黨而是國民黨跟民眾黨派人的話是不是也代表你們坐實了在國會擴權的法案的本身你們立法院院長韓國瑜領導的院長的立法院韓國瑜院長領導的立法院就國會擴權法案的本身你就是站在國民黨跟民眾黨的一邊"},{"start":4503.494,"end":4526.095,"text":"這個是一個核心的議題喔你今天派的代表因為剛剛黃國昌委員一直講兩兆兩兆然後這個施民委員一直講利益迴避那你真的還擬出一個由國民黨可以派代表來做為立法院的機關代表民眾黨可以派然後民進黨沒有好像民進黨黨團不是立法院的人"},{"start":4527.406,"end":4553.351,"text":"那是不是在這個議案本身的立場上您就坐實了整個國會擴權法案立法院本身的機關代表的立場就是挺國民黨跟民眾黨的擴權版本這全民都在看喔所以回到正辦就是我說的任何一個議案立法院會去申請釋憲這個不同政黨在當家都會嘛因為任何的立法如果涉及有違憲疑慮的話憲法法庭就是最終的裁判"},{"start":4554.482,"end":4579.606,"text":"那都應當當機關代表又是立法院本身是一個中立性的代表所以就either way全部都是立法院的官方代表好我用官方或者是那各政黨都有均等的權利真的不要讓政黨的政治立場或政策立場去決定了立法院的機關立場因為那就有政治性的判斷在裡面這是非常不宜的謝謝吳思瑤委員請國民黨團發言"},{"start":4588.288,"end":4604.153,"text":"紅書議員感謝院長今天我想召開這個憲法法庭通知書7月5號我們收到今天那簡單的回覆幾個部分開宗明義憲法法庭通知書裡面就有提到申請人立法委員柯建銘等51位"},{"start":4605.774,"end":4633.445,"text":"那所以說申請人立法委員柯建銘等51位他就是申請人的代表那既然他就已經是申請方了他對照的就是立法院這邊我們是要來說明的部分那怎麼如果說如同剛剛我們所提到的就說今天民進黨黨團51人他又是申請人他又可以代表立法院來做這個機關代表的話那不就是變成是這個邏輯是矛盾的嗎"},{"start":4634.505,"end":4649.142,"text":"再者,剛剛我們民進黨團的代表也有提到是說這個機關代表要中立那我想請教立法院如果說要求中立那申請人有行政院有監察院那他們的立場是什麼?"},{"start":4651.044,"end":4667.545,"text":"行政院跟監察院已經不中立了在這件事情上面他們已經沒有中立的一個情況他有他們的主張跟立場也因此居然是我們的這個黨團的代表裡面是要求說立法院要中立但是對於行政院對於監察院他們的立場是什麼"},{"start":4668.53,"end":4689.719,"text":"再者,其實我們也不是第一次討論所謂的釋憲案也不是第一次討論所謂的立法院推派委員推派代表我們這邊馬上就查出幾個部分第一,在民國89年的時候有針對核能、核市場的停止執行預算的釋憲案的部分請立法院推派三名代表"},{"start":4691.099,"end":4699.684,"text":"當時就是由草野協商之後推派高裕仁委員、周協會委員、謝其他委員三位代表出席。再近一點"},{"start":4700.916,"end":4724.481,"text":"民國93年當時的立法委員柯建銘等93人認為319槍擊案真相調查委員會有抵觸憲法的疑慮,申請釋憲當時也是由立法院到最後推派的是高育仁委員跟陳敬興委員兩位國民黨籍的委員代表參加319槍擊案真相調查委員會條例的釋憲"},{"start":4728.862,"end":4751.71,"text":"當時的民進黨團並沒有參與立法院的代表那民進黨團的委員在幹嘛呢?民進黨委員他們就是擔任立法委員柯建銘等93人的申請人代表我特別找到這個新聞當時民進黨的申請人代表就是以游青委員跟吳東升委員為代表"},{"start":4752.21,"end":4775.059,"text":"所以在大法官會議召開憲法法庭的時候雙方推派代表出席陳述意見民進黨以立委游青跟吳東昇為代表主張真相調查委員會違憲而立法院的代表則是以高育仁跟陳靜心為代表所以我想過去到現在都有前例可循"},{"start":4776.472,"end":4796.433,"text":"剛剛院長所提的這樣的一個運理我想也不是結論這個是讓一個guideline能夠讓我們三個黨團的代表坐下來三長能夠有一個guideline能夠互相來討論當然內容文字我們都沒有訂件也都可以修正但精神是什麼精神是既然是申請人你就不應該變成是機關代表"},{"start":4797.754,"end":4814.358,"text":"既然是機關代表就應該要排除申請人我想這才是符合一開始所謂兩照雙方各自立場也許不同但是有公平的機會互相闡述各自的意見這才是符合這一次我們今天討論協商的一個重點以上謝謝"},{"start":4821.892,"end":4834.965,"text":"我就提一個,剛才就是說我們的立法院是不是是一個中立的,還是一個是不是應該有代表那我看那個8月6號的言辭辯論"},{"start":4838.102,"end":4852.695,"text":"第一條就是要針對這個職權刑事法還有刑法141條之一的立法程序立法程序是否有重大瑕疵"},{"start":4853.436,"end":4872.236,"text":"那立法程序這個誰該來回答哪一個政黨能夠代表立法程序一定是立法院一定是議事機關一定是主持會議可能是院長或秘書長因為你們必須要為自己所主持的這個程序來辯護因為現在直接質疑到"},{"start":4873.648,"end":4889.485,"text":"議事程序的瑕疵問題的所以這看起來也不是哪一個政黨能夠代表說這程序沒有問題能夠辯護的所以看起來是應該有自己的立場應該是沒有問題的以上我表達意見"},{"start":4893.44,"end":4919.274,"text":"好,謝謝民眾的發言,請民進黨。好,剛才仔細聆聽幾位的意見,坦白講,我的可期而不可期,大家冷靜的想想看。今天我是要在這裡協商,如果讓整個試驗程序能夠能夠進行,能夠能夠,當然這只要還是大法官自己的看法,他做了什麼判,並不是,這個比水能多,"},{"start":4920.696,"end":4942.641,"text":"比人多好打錢架有用的嘛。」這是講道理的時刻。第一個,針對剛才黃國昌委員所說明的,坦白講,他講的是沒有錯。因為我才一看他講的記者會,我覺得黃國昌講的怎麼可能大,這個大法會書記處理會糊塗至此。因為機關代表基本上沒有機關代表的指定。"},{"start":4945.069,"end":4964.834,"text":"那所以這樣情形底下,卡特我們不知道我們馬上要插槍,因為他先發給我們文是怎麼樣,他先發這個,三號先發一個,然後再發一個之後,接著三號說有這個程序要進行,然後再發給我們說那程序的內容是怎麼樣,它不是一次就來的。"},{"start":4966.081,"end":4981.968,"text":"所以我剛才講就是說他說30分鐘然後大法官問又代表業務室才發來了那第一次發來的時候當然我後來聽記者會黃國昌、孫燕東等我節目的意見怎麼會有可能發生這個事情呢?於是我就打電話給大法官所謂廳長"},{"start":4991.002,"end":5017.287,"text":"因為他主持那個那經常是他的行政人員王浩青我說怎麼可能發生這種事情我說我們經常在協商文太晚了所以他緊急發來我想這個已經補正了我們就不再辯論第二個有關黎世民及洪孟凱乃至於洪國昌及吳征仁的意見坦白講我們現在機關代表是誰在這裡爭辯"},{"start":5020.888,"end":5025.29,"text":"這個機關是屬於誰?屬於三個黨的機關不是國民黨的機關也不是民主黨的機關吳征榮講得比較有道理這個機關代表的話也應該是老公沒休息最綜藝的話那你就派議事長去嘛然後議事處處長去嘛"},{"start":5043.513,"end":5066.222,"text":"因為我們在誠信心誠信心的違憲部分我們有申請緊急處分嘛那這怎麼搞的?這個基礎表也可以一路沒收都可以嗎?只剝奪我們參與法案的審查權嗎?還有表決人數從來不一這是誠信心的問題啊你要想想499幫上誠信心自焚誠信心問題就被判違憲了"},{"start":5068.499,"end":5081.272,"text":"所以這個有一個實體還有一個程式性的問題程式性的問題你既然院長你敢這樣的主持你一定有你的有所本嘛你本人的意識規則是怎麼樣"},{"start":5084.178,"end":5097.926,"text":"民主黨要去說明啊,藝術組長要去說明,因為所有行為大家看得很清楚啊。欸!那表格中間你都圍起來,你先講開圍起來,然後其所表決。然後,院長我不客氣的講,因為坦白講這個是蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻"},{"start":5112.535,"end":5134.701,"text":"高、高處長一個一個遞給你嘛你旁邊還有一個黑名書長你要問來問你以後拿高處長一個遞你找照面嘛所以這個東西齁這個問題是被挑戰的全國大陪會都看在眼裡嘛所以這個機關代表因為吳征、我之前講吳征等委員啦講蠻有道理啦你機關代表是defense嘛我的程序有什麼沒有問題啊應該是這樣嘛"},{"start":5138.294,"end":5141.218,"text":"所以我比較建議就是說機關代表的話全部給"},{"start":5145.157,"end":5168.97,"text":"全部給立法院的議事處和院長所領導下的立法院的所有職員。你看派兩三個出來。至於諮問代理人的話,坦白講我們不派也無所謂,因為我們是等對照的嘛。我們就不派也無所謂啦。因為坦白講,我不派也無所謂不是說我入會你們主張。因為這個不是,您聽我講嘛。"},{"start":5171.036,"end":5177.079,"text":"這節列不是惡言式的辯論啊,你是我的辯論啊。你說這個聽訟請求權,誰說可以去聽訟啊?拍大表隨時,我們一晚要幾個人去,差不多一流位置的。"},{"start":5187.939,"end":5213.608,"text":"這不是有聽用的,這不是意猶未知的所以我的看法就是說,這條普通的法律是不太一樣的不然各一各吧,我是直接對的這是國家法院、縣法院上面一個解釋,絕對不是二元的因為事件裡面也有很多點,我已經講了這裡面也有你們的人心什麼,是主角之惡,是主角之惡和我們去抄民進黨版本"},{"start":5214.864,"end":5241.037,"text":"三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正�"},{"start":5243.078,"end":5261.099,"text":"民眾黨的機關就是所有人的機關是人命的立法院是國家的立法院所以我的看法是這樣這絕不是惡言惡言化的對立的因為你們版本裡面也有故意去抄我們的這我們可以認同嗎"},{"start":5262.173,"end":5281.886,"text":"那我的看法就是說,這也不是從利益衝突迴避,這是國家法律的問題所以應該大家很忠義,很忠義來看待這個事情我這樣解釋就是說,我們可以輸入代理人,我都要我們要徵求我們中央行政委員會表達,他已經做了兩次了"},{"start":5283.327,"end":5300.629,"text":"事務代理人我們不要去跟你論告這個當然是我希望你們中立一點那你機關代表你就完全都機關代表只要你機關代表要列入藍白的話那對不起那我們也要就三個人來就一人一個啊不然的話藍白全部放棄讓全部給"},{"start":5301.59,"end":5331.19,"text":"那當然你們是對照的一方面你們各黨都可以派三個律師、自動代理人那是沒問題至於這個鑑定人以及這個鑑定人法院法庭自由那自由憲法訴訟的規定各黨要怎麼推薦那只要他受理的話就可以我覺得這樣一個因為大家推到這個程度上面可能比較我們對於這個憲法的尊重那剛才我要特別講出說剛才吳律師要講一個很道理"},{"start":5332.071,"end":5356.372,"text":"當年案指紋的時候就是誰?就是現在總統賴清德他臨行提案的那個案指紋難道有藍心之筆嗎?沒有嘛難道說我們提出事件的話我們也不能派代表?可以啊那當然有幾個非常典型的合適的領件那是很典型的以及這個五八四日三一九證交會嘛那是很典型對照"},{"start":5357.293,"end":5385.72,"text":"我們就你們就全部讓你們去去去站在對面去講都沒有關係所以性質的不一樣但是這一個現在這一次是前途處目的整個整個國家的體制的設計上在這一關是最重要我不是希望這一關在處理的時候然後我們今天看到翁曉燕委員體制宣傳宣傳書宣傳修正案那個是絕對是把整個國家整個體制全部加工那是很危險的所以我在這裡比較主張就是說"},{"start":5388.325,"end":5406.474,"text":"我們不是利益迴避的關係而不參加,是我們這個市政代理人全部給你們去發言,我們無所謂。但是只要機關,你不用機關代表的話,不用你玩的機關代表的話,三郎的話,就三郎可以發一個。我是這樣的結論。謝謝柯子中發言,國民黨團請。"},{"start":5417.623,"end":5421.97,"text":"謝謝院長今天的召集其實由院方這裡"},{"start":5423.527,"end":5449.779,"text":"提出可能權益的一些草擬的一些文件讓大家能夠聚焦這都是好事才不會天馬行空嘛至少我們先聚焦在這個院方所提出來的相關的這個焦點我們來討論這樣是可以縮短我們這個協商的一個整體的時間我想院方這邊還是以後還是盡量幫我們聚焦一下"},{"start":5450.987,"end":5472.427,"text":"那對於這次憲法法庭要求這個立法院來了這個通知書指定相關機關這到底是用通知書還是應該用函當然都可以討論啦沒關係它已經是通知書來就通知書啦"},{"start":5473.45,"end":5499.109,"text":"其實我們回文上也可以告訴他以後應該是要用喊因為行政院跟司法院跟立法院是一個平行的單位應該是好好的喊過來那另外就是我們也謝謝柯總召這麼謙讓我想我們有很多爭議的問題就不用不用再討論了那民進黨對於這個本身柯總召是這個訴訟的提出人嗎?申請人"},{"start":5500.731,"end":5526.822,"text":"他這個就是反正憲法法庭嘛他這個是由柯總召所提出來的嘛所以對這個部分柯總召願意不管是要迴避也好還是說這個願意禮讓也好我們也都請表謝意啦那我想這個部分我們大家就不用爭辭了那對於第二個部分啦這個機關代表的部分"},{"start":5528.53,"end":5556.485,"text":"我們覺得既然是立法院是所謂的這個相對的這個機關所以這個機關的代表的部分我覺得我們還是尊重院長院長來指定來指定因為我們自己的招牌立法院自己顧院長來指定三位指定三位機關代表"},{"start":5557.646,"end":5584.285,"text":"對於我們這裡還是要特別提醒一下我們提醒一下我們立法院院方我提醒一下立法院院方這個因為在這整個過程當中我們對於這個監察院這個司法院他的這次的效能是非常的高啦"},{"start":5587.808,"end":5611.565,"text":"司法院在這個6月28號網站公告受理立法委員柯建銘委員等51人之聲請案聲請書但是立法院是7月3號立法院才收到來文那司法院在7月4號下午才在"},{"start":5612.965,"end":5638.758,"text":"網路上公告7月3日受理監察院、行政院、總統賴清德之聲請書。司法院7月3日通知就申請暫時處分的部分通知立法院委任訴訟代理人及陳述意見。這個中間只有五天,7月5日到7月9日只有五天。"},{"start":5643.223,"end":5670.336,"text":"那我們立法院需要完成所有的法定流程包括我們的訴訟代理人還有一些如果需要招標程序的話所以這顯有不足這沒有辦法保障訴訟人的權益是不是這個部分我們也要立法院也要跟司法院明確的表達因為這麼短的時間這麼急的要開庭"},{"start":5672.166,"end":5694.455,"text":"應該是給我們充足的時間我想這個是想對立法院本院的權益應該得到確保因為本院的權益不是部分任何政黨因為這是代表立法院的至於我想輸送代理人的部分現在已經沒有爭議了至於機關代表的部分"},{"start":5699.213,"end":5710.197,"text":"分黨黨、分黨黨團我們也希望成為一個慣例啦因為過去就是這樣嘛尊重院長嘛我想我們以後還是朝這個方向來進行好不好謝謝國民黨團歡迎民眾黨團請你們補充意見好請沒關係沒問題請民黨團莊瑞雄幹事長"},{"start":5719.643,"end":5739.693,"text":"倒也不會衝突啦,這個指揮整個草野協商本來就是院長你的職權啊你也可以馬上講說政黨講完來政黨講完去你也可以講到一半大家講不下去了你說誰指定這個本來就是你的權限我必須要再講清楚啊那你今天我看到這一件我們今天的一個草野協商我倒覺得氣氛也非常好"},{"start":5740.393,"end":5748.516,"text":"那大家都談自己的一個看法,這個也都直播嘛,外界都可以去做檢視啊。但是國民黨剛提到的部分我就有一點不能夠贊同啊。第一個,剛剛副總召提到說,噢這個司法院你這個時間太短了,讓立法院沒辦法去準備。我都認為啊,憲法法庭這個定的時間都已經太過太長了。"},{"start":5760.92,"end":5784.581,"text":"這涉及到整個憲政機關你整個運作的一個問題你立法院通過了以後你送給總統你總統你去做一個公告完以後這個法律是可以生效的法律是生效的所以當然你要這個時候你涉及到憲政機關的一個爭議的時候要有一個定暫時處分的一個狀態的話本來他就要非常迅速的如果在法院裡面你再申請假處分的話"},{"start":5786.862,"end":5791.784,"text":"但更快啊!當天是可以裁的耶!所以我都認為說以憲政機關這樣的一個憲政爭議我倒不認為說憲法法庭這個部分是它的時間太急促"},{"start":5801.124,"end":5806.447,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":5822.217,"end":5827.384,"text":"這件事情涉及到我們立法院開出的一槍裡面是打到總統府打到監察院打到行政院所以是他們每一個人都是當事人他們沒有中立的問題啊所以如果說你要這個純然去講說這是兩兆的問題的話我也不認為這個叫做兩兆"},{"start":5842.541,"end":5851.706,"text":"以申請機關來講民主進步黨我們是申請人所以訴訟代理人的部分其他的部分我們就不爭執了這個大家有共識了嘛但是這個機關代表大家不要忘記"},{"start":5853.528,"end":5871.682,"text":"涉及到機關代表,當然就是在講立法院,立法院是各個委員,不只黨派,也有五黨,所以代表人是誰?是韓國瑜院長,以現在來說是你,所以我反而比較贊同是院長你來指定"},{"start":5872.703,"end":5892.042,"text":"因為涉及到你說這部法令申請釋憲的話那確實這個裡面法律條文大家很清楚涉及到也有人民不是只有政黨當初在立法院做攻防而已而且我們在審這個法的過程裡面大家不要忘記基於整個大家意識的一個攻防我們會把各個政黨的條文放進來"},{"start":5896.175,"end":5909.645,"text":"這是你看46條之二大家就看到了民進黨黨團的主張所以你說哪一兆到底是誰立法院是你泥中有我我泥中有你立法院是有國民黨、民進黨、台灣民眾黨還有五黨這樣來做組成所以他倒不是說一個對立"},{"start":5916.738,"end":5920.02,"text":"三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":5939.116,"end":5944.004,"text":"要求政黨全部放,如果沒有的話就全部都沒有,院長你來指定。」我覺得這樣來講的話是不是會比較符合說立法院一致對外也請各政黨大家再來做一個思考"},{"start":5953.776,"end":5979.499,"text":"謝謝莊惠雄幹事長那個訴訟代理人大概已經達成共識了就是說國民黨團派兩位然後民眾黨團派一位民進黨也很完全欣然接受那現在機關代表人我們現在請周秘書長簡短二要跟大家報告一下報告各位委員在一般來講在例裡面"},{"start":5980.703,"end":5997.629,"text":"其實這一次的司法院是對立法院相當不尊重的往常一定是司法院的秘書長一定會送給立法院秘書長表示體面的一個處理舉個例來講,但是我不在院裡面"},{"start":5998.922,"end":6023.485,"text":"八千八百億的預算,他一定是送給立法院去表達這個院裡面處理的情況,包括後面很多的例債,這次沒有,也沒有來函。往常的時候各位會了解到,好幾個案都不受理,不受理的時候的理由上一定都是由"},{"start":6024.892,"end":6052.433,"text":"立法院的秘書長含意見給他的。」這是完全都沒有所以馬上立法院就是一個通知就要訴訟代理人那在幕僚在作業的立場上很簡單我們只有往常的立以前的機關代表因為各位了解憲法訴訟法跟大法官那時候是不太一樣的但是訴訟代理憲法訴訟法一定是當事人一定是申請人跟相對人"},{"start":6053.53,"end":6068.34,"text":"那相對聯裡面的一個情形在幕僚在座位的上當然是機關代表一定是以這個相對聯的黨團裡面提出他的代表所以我們才會這樣的寫法所以就是做一個補充補充意見沒有我們請民眾黨團黃總召請"},{"start":6085.174,"end":6095.902,"text":"兩個部分第一個部分是我要再重申一次憲法法庭7月3號我們收文的這個通知書的確是只有訴訟代理人"},{"start":6097.045,"end":6126.19,"text":"根本沒有機關代表所以我才會公開批評這樣子的通知根本就是在剝奪當事人在程序上面受憲法保障的聽審權我們現在要進行所謂的憲法訴訟在憲法法庭聽審請求權、正當法律程序這個是當初很多申請人包括柯建銘等51人寫在申請書上面的法律概念怎麼我們的憲法法庭自己"},{"start":6128.462,"end":6153.532,"text":"連聽懲請求權、連正當法律程序都沒有遵守。」這個是我當初所提出的質疑到今天7月5號才補發了這個東西才把這個東西給補齊啦我剛聽柯建銘總召在發言我真的有點驚訝柯建銘總召剛剛說您跟大法官書記處聯絡我不知道您跟他聯絡什麼"},{"start":6155.205,"end":6181.636,"text":"怎麼會有當事人直接跟大法官書記處聯絡?你不是憲法訴訟的申請人代表嗎?什麼時候可以進行ex-party communication?這個是讓人覺得很驚訝的事情喔原來我們的申請人可以直接打電話去給大法官書記處的人叫他們做事情喔這個讓我非常非常的驚訝第二個部分"},{"start":6184.528,"end":6196.198,"text":"申請人、相對人在進行延遲辯論。」他在概念上面本來就是兩照對立兩個立場不一樣一個主張"},{"start":6199.308,"end":6217.963,"text":"違憲一個主張合憲這是最基本的最基本的兩造對立的結構憲法訴訟法法庭化它的概念就是這個樣子今天51個申請人裡面竟然還有一個人可以過來當機關的代表"},{"start":6220.564,"end":6245.475,"text":"這不是很荒謬的事情嗎那請問這位申請人我不知道民進黨黨團打算派誰當機關的代表之一那你當機關的代表你是站在機關的立場講話還是站在申請人的立場講話因為51位民進黨的立委都已經是申請人了51個人申請當中有一個人他既是申請人又是相對人機關的代表"},{"start":6246.864,"end":6272.418,"text":"這已經破壞了在憲法訴訟最基本的結構啊最基本的結構啊如果今天我覺得本院要非常慎重的去解決這件事情啊知識體大啊那個會很荒謬啊我國的憲法訴訟既可以當申請人同一個人還可以當機關代表"},{"start":6275.819,"end":6277.301,"text":"怎麼會有這樣的事情呢?剛剛他們就說啦,說不可以指派、主張是合憲的其他兩個在野黨的黨團做機關代表那民主七部黨黨團,剛剛柯建銘總召說他們也要有代表"},{"start":6297.245,"end":6307.149,"text":"這是一件很奇怪的事,你既是申請人,你又是相關機關的代表,那請問你的主張跟立場是什麼?不好意思我可以先說完嗎?"},{"start":6316.547,"end":6336.032,"text":"最後最後如果今天這個不是指定訴訟代理人就可以解決的問題我為什麼說這不是指定訴訟代理人就可以解決的問題在程序上面有當事人有訴訟代理人訴訟代理人要聽誰的?要聽當事人的"},{"start":6339.47,"end":6364.955,"text":"訴訟代理人要聽當事人的如果這個機關代表是三個黨團都有三個黨團都有請問這個訴訟代理人要聽誰的當事人與訴訟代理人的陳述不一致的時候要聽誰的三個機關代表假設啦三個機關代表三個黨團各派一個代表三十分鐘一人十分鐘"},{"start":6367.745,"end":6394.957,"text":"我們指這個是立法院所委任的訴訟代理人如果是當立法院所委任的訴訟代理人的話那個訴訟代理人他對負在對當事人的忠實義務跟善良管理人的義務他負義務的對象是誰是立法院他要主張的是什麼他要主張的是立法院的立場"},{"start":6396.888,"end":6402.712,"text":"當訴訟代理人他的陳述跟當事人的陳述不一致的時候,要聽誰的?要聽當事人的"},{"start":6407.112,"end":6433.954,"text":"這個在進行憲法訴訟的時候或許啦就是說我本來覺得這麼基本的概念其實沒有什麼解釋的必要但是如果真的大家對這件事情還要爭執的話那我是不是請建議院長發一個函直接去給憲法法庭請求產名說當申請人的還適不適合當本院的機關代表"},{"start":6435.677,"end":6459.659,"text":"看憲法法庭會怎麼回吧。謝謝黃總統。接下來請民進黨團請發言。我是覺得,大家抄耳其響,頭前我要講什麼,你要注意聽。然後你不一聽,然後你也聽不懂我在說什麼。那應該故意拗這一段。這是大廈這個衝突之所在。我是說今天大家都很理性。我說今天開始我開頭的第一句話是什麼?"},{"start":6460.62,"end":6485.876,"text":"不應該由院長先做一個協商的結論出來因為侯文凱委員所說的交易案你是一個草案相主持的永遠都是最後一個拿出來聽大家意見拿出來協議大家要不要簽不是你才指定所以這一點務必要改進好不好這是第一點第二點我剛才也講得很清楚嘛侯文凱委員也今晚同意嘛"},{"start":6486.724,"end":6503.739,"text":"第一個,我們來攻擊火速非常惡質的,我老實坦白講。我是看你講,我覺得很奇怪,怎麼沒有機關代表這不對啊。然後一次我打電話去就結束,打電話到我們書記廳廳長。"},{"start":6507.83,"end":6531.699,"text":"他是做行政的,我不是你比較大官的,你覺得對不對?我們一般輸送的時候,你一輩子也會打給書記官啊,到底程序是怎麼樣?你都是律師啊,你這樣要硬拗,還沒得利,我說你不這樣,就是會造成衝突的根源嘛。當然講得很清楚嘛。然後呢,剛才座案來講的也不對啦,因為坦白講,我剛才講的是機關代表人的話,"},{"start":6535.78,"end":6544.246,"text":"當然要有機關代表,三黨都來,因為立法院不是只有你們兩黨的,你們都有人在一起的,我們四條之二,你把我們的版本抄進去嗎?"},{"start":6554.534,"end":6555.514,"text":"你你你你你你你你你你你你你你你你你你"},{"start":6578.676,"end":6606.808,"text":"難道當初由賴清德立法委員領先提案的現在總統難道立法院有不同代表或說這個這個人沒有派啊所以看case嘛立法院是大家的立法院所以我剛才已經講了說機關代表最好你有因為大法官也是大概同樣的條件嘛因為你機關代表也是30分鐘我們也是30分鐘四個單位也是30分鐘而已嘛"},{"start":6607.694,"end":6632.679,"text":"那將來金管代表都給了金管代表三個人嘛那輸送代理人三個嘛當然我們都希望金管代表的話理由立法院院長一定要指定因為你從陳姓名要進行的嘛你坐在旁邊那個做外財秘書長他那個秘書長是你最大的一個指揮者嘛指導者啊"},{"start":6633.759,"end":6641.909,"text":"全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文"},{"start":6652.021,"end":6655.183,"text":"所以今天我講的結論就是剛才副分局總召的同意嘛"},{"start":6668.308,"end":6689.435,"text":"那基本代表就由院長去指派嘛,院長你要指派一個就可以啦,也不要三個組隨便你,但是你總是要,你有沒有組織會議這個基本你,你才忘的嘛。那一定要說,說不定立法院要想辦法,他講說過去這樣的話,什麼司法院極度不尊重立法院,錯了。"},{"start":6691.628,"end":6718.601,"text":"過去在大審法時代的時候司法院民事長代表一切所以他要詢問給各黨團可是憲法訴訟法從一百一十年一月十一號到現在已經憲法訴訟法從我們去試驗的時候出來接的是誰過去我們去試驗的時候接的是誰是接的是司法院民事長那這是從一百一十二年以後都不是"},{"start":6719.381,"end":6738.192,"text":"是司法院的書記廳的廳長,他總是管行政的,他只來介意,他只管行政的,好像因為我可以寬縮,何謂黃國昌把這次的農工廠全力投照啊,不然他把阿花也要照啊,這次的農工廠有多少時間到農工廠賣了啊,這次的農工廠做人不應該如此嘛。"},{"start":6739.646,"end":6766.002,"text":"規要抹黑然後不給人家講話講話都很差話有人在搞這一套我現在回答他不敢講不敢聽了要趕快跑民進黨你們應該善於跟你們總召善於規範之反正這黨危險了好不好所以結論剛才大家都有同意嘛那基本代表我們就給你派謝謝柯總召現在特別跟黨自帶人我們不派這樣總可以吧"},{"start":6766.758,"end":6794.714,"text":"現在跟黨團幹部報告一下現在行政院的卓院長還在我們立法院我們先請院長回去休息請行政院團隊兩點半再來我們先請行政院院長先離開然後我們繼續開會好不好我知道那個兩點半以後那如果各位黨團幹部如果同意的話我先通知行政院團隊先回去休息請他們兩點半再來否則對他們不禮貌"},{"start":6797.056,"end":6812.696,"text":"現在請林思平發言然後請民眾黨臺灣民眾黨團請準備是謝謝院長院長現在我補充再一個問題就是說現在四個機關四個機關是不是他們一個機關就有三個訴訟代理人那合計起來他們有12個訴訟代理人"},{"start":6813.217,"end":6840.311,"text":"所以現在就是說我們立法院這邊是不是也要相對應的就是說如果是司法院是同意他們派十二個輸送代理人那我們立法院是不是也要就每一個機關相對應派出三個輸送代理人不是這樣就是說他每一個案子都不一樣嘛每一個機關的當事人不一樣所以他是會不一樣的一個審理是不是不一樣才有時間控制啦要時間控制要確認啦"},{"start":6842.032,"end":6862.697,"text":"四個機關就十五、三十分鐘啦!立法院三十分鐘啦!你不要說我現在要確認啦請我們立法院跟他確認是不是說他們是派十二個輸送代理人如果是的話我是個人是建議說立法院也相對應的我們要有十二位輸送代理人因為他們一個機關就三位了這樣武器才對等啦"},{"start":6864.804,"end":6884.899,"text":"這要併案的如果你併案是一樣那十二位共用三十分鐘謝謝現在我跟你講不可能不是我決定的問題我們接到的通知就是三位好不好所以這個就一加三啦你的意見我聽到了大家也聽到了這樣就好好不好接下來我們請台灣民眾黨發言請市民兄把那個壓麥克風謝謝請台灣民眾黨發言"},{"start":6894.175,"end":6899.898,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":6920.263,"end":6944.768,"text":"當事人的一方,因為現在是民進黨51位立委,都是申請人。那在相對人是立法院,立法院裡面也有所謂申請的代表,這是法院他可以直接禁止他雙方代理的。我想這個大家都一樣,不會是只有憲法法庭不一樣。所以很清楚的是,我認為這個事情就是立法院的院長"},{"start":6946.465,"end":6962.581,"text":"還有我們的行政單位要去捍衛立法院程序跟內容的合法合憲所以這個並不是可以用所謂的政黨代表或者是一定要有誰出來重點是我們主張是不是捍衛立法院的權益"},{"start":6963.121,"end":6984.964,"text":"如果不是或者是說這中先我覺得認為就是由院長來做指定可能這是最適合的否則我們派了一個機關代表最後法院說你又是這邊的聲請人被禁止雙方代理的話我覺得反而對立法院並不利那最重要的是我覺得民眾都知道大家在講什麼所以其實就把事情講清楚儘速的趕快推出相關的代表不要耽誤到"},{"start":6986.167,"end":7011.977,"text":"當天言辭辯對的程序,或者是我們立法院立場的進行。」第二個,我不贊成只有秘書長代理,因為他們只能捍衛程序。他們對於內容,他們沒有辦法...我認為沒有辦法單獨用秘書長來代理。他們可以發表相關有關程序的部分,但是對於內容,他們並不能有自己的意見。也就是說,"},{"start":7013.328,"end":7041.44,"text":"相關的這個程序不應該內容的實質內容的部分不應該是把責任推給秘書長所以我們還是應該有通過這個法案的政黨的代表來捍衛這個法案的內容那至於不同意見所以今天才有這個釋憲案嘛如果大家意見都一樣就不用釋憲案了所以重點是51位代表如果有任何一個人代表了立法院去現場這個機關他可能就是"},{"start":7041.961,"end":7045.579,"text":"所謂的利益衝突,可能法院都必須要禁止它雙方代理。」"},{"start":7046.846,"end":7073.829,"text":"我們請民進黨團莊幹事長謝謝院長我再講一次民進黨這51位市縣的一個申請人民進黨沒有要派出一個人去沒有沒有這件事我必須要去講清楚那另外剛剛林士明委員提到說那就變成是武器不平等不會就是譬如說一個案件裡面一個五個被告"},{"start":7074.844,"end":7096.552,"text":"或五個共同被告,法律明文規定訴訟代理人一個人請三個,不能說你們加起來是十五個,那我要力挺就要十五個檢察官,或原告這邊的人一個人一個律師,原告本來要升級三個人,因為你被告有十五個律師,那我原告這個地方我也要變成十五個律師,不會。"},{"start":7099.161,"end":7120.814,"text":"沒有啦,因為我剛就開宗明義講了嘛,這個案子涉及到各個各個憲政機關他們的權限跟立法院有沒有衝突的問題啦所以這個倒沒有武器平不平等的一個問題啦那黃國昌委員剛提到那些話我聽到了啦但我覺得最好的解決的一個方式就是"},{"start":7122.116,"end":7130.888,"text":"既然立法院它是一個合一機關到未必是從政黨的方面去看到未必要由政黨來做一個推薦"},{"start":7134.471,"end":7155.744,"text":"再一次講說其實院長你就可以去做一個指定啊那你說你不是律師憲法法庭如果認為可以的話那你本身也可以啊你說你說你委任前向非律師為訴訟代理人的話憲法法庭審判長他說可以啊這個尊重你立法機關你派出來雖然不是律師雖然法治局局長或者說秘書長"},{"start":7157.47,"end":7184.123,"text":"這些人都不具備律師的一個資格但是我們也可以憲法法庭也可以來做這樣一個尊重我認為他們也會做這樣一個尊重所以我的意思就是說要解決這個問題就不要去講到說什麼武器平不平等一個一部法律定出來各個政黨之間有攻防本來就會有不同如果你要講說利益衝突的話那如果是國民黨跟台灣民眾黨指定"},{"start":7186.224,"end":7190.527,"text":"全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":7211.542,"end":7230.017,"text":"院長你去做一個指定,你是立法機關的代表人嘛,你去做一個指定啊。謝謝鍾岳雄幹事長。國民黨團也沒有補充意見。國民黨團還沒有補充意見。民眾黨團還沒有補充意見。沒有。最後一分鐘。吳司友幹事長要一分鐘是不是?你們誰一分鐘?因為我要...我再講清楚一點啦齁。第一個齁。"},{"start":7232.119,"end":7249.401,"text":"這個事件影響的不是只有政黨之間的衝突而已還有各行政機關的運作以及人民權益的問題所以不要大話說民運動不再派人不是這個意思我們在這裡講清楚第一個訴訟代理人我們都不會派"},{"start":7250.482,"end":7252.705,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條"},{"start":7266.632,"end":7288.318,"text":"黃國昌或是胡文綺當然我們也要來啊是這樣啦是這樣所以機關代表不要有政治人物機關代表只有純粹立法院機關裡面應該是這樣比較合理那其他事務代理人我們不會派好不好那這個是牽涉到不是只有我們鎮長、校長而已這是胡文綺以所有人民權益因應的問題啊好是這樣"},{"start":7294.36,"end":7320.634,"text":"我們聽完好像三黨都是尊重院長指定嗎?我覺得這個就讓院長做決定好,請吳思雅幹事長請補充一分鐘這個真的要提醒院長中立這件事情我們再說一次民進黨沒有要去當機關代表我們的原則一致機關代表就是非政黨代表非政治人物他帶有預設的意識形態跟政策立場所以民進黨沒有"},{"start":7321.815,"end":7339.441,"text":"要爭取這個所以我們認同好院長指派但是指派就是立法院的中立的官方的秘書長或是法治局的人就這樣我真的要提醒院長一件事議事中立這件事如果您今天指派的立法院的機關代表"},{"start":7341.261,"end":7351.954,"text":"是已經是在該議案上某一方主張的黨團那對外留在歷史上的就是立法院本身對於這個國會擴權法案你就是挺可能涉及違憲的那一邊"},{"start":7357.557,"end":7361.958,"text":"我要再說這個要在面對憲法法庭的解釋之前合憲違憲open因為大法官憲法法庭來處理同樣的立法院採取的機關立場也應當是合憲違憲你要是一個中立的判斷"},{"start":7375.342,"end":7402.707,"text":"如果您指派出來的機關代表是在這個議案上有清楚的政治立場的時候這真的就坐實了立法院從頭到尾面對這個職權刑事法跟刑法的修正當中本身就是不中立的社會在看這個很重要我一定要提醒院長我們有很強的秘書長不是嗎?我們應當有很強的法治局委員員不是嗎?你可以指派一、二、三都可以"},{"start":7403.487,"end":7423.907,"text":"就是我們信任我們的中立的立法院的正正當當的官方代表我再想一次您的才是非常重要黃珊珊委員您沒有補充的嗎?各位黨團幹部非常感謝大家今天您要補充嗎?好請"},{"start":7426.854,"end":7449.381,"text":"院長我想我們已經開了協商一個半小時了齁那其實從一開始我們就一直強調過去這幾次的草野協商為什麼一直都沒有結論就是因為各黨團都黨團代表裡面都沒有辦法說就這個議題來討論其實院長剛剛先把相關的一個方向給你出來讓我們能夠聚焦我覺得這是好事啊"},{"start":7449.961,"end":7475.154,"text":"這代表是說我們能夠把握時間來做聚焦但是我一直強調的是我們到目前為止黨團協商就是最後協商結論大家黨團簽名才算數嘛還沒有簽名前都不算數嘛所以其實民進黨團也不用說一直幫院長來扣這個帽子我覺得這不應該再者我覺得院長既然大家都有共識就是說讓院尊重院長的決定那我就"},{"start":7475.874,"end":7484.832,"text":"不認為說應該要預設任何前提跟立場。」院長的高度跟院長的指示難道會有"},{"start":7486.348,"end":7513.598,"text":"任何的預設立場並不會啊。」可是我覺得說剛剛聽到我們民進黨團的代表也講是說院長可以尊重但是院長不能派某些人我覺得這樣子其實就限制了院長的一個裁量權跟院長的指示權也因此我們也同意如果說院長能夠來指派但是不預設任何立場院長要指派任何人我們都能尊重但是絕對不是在限制的情況下要求院長來做這樣的事情"},{"start":7514.258,"end":7540.506,"text":"所以如果說真的沒有結論的話那就回歸到一開始大家院長說你出來這樣的一個決論大家是不是能夠同意如果說真的不能夠同意的話該怎麼樣做後續的議事進行我們也只能做因為草野協商看起來現在各黨團坐下來一個半小時了但是還是淪於各自的立場你沒有辦法說服我我沒有辦法說服你如果真的是這樣的話那就回歸到結論那我最後我只補充一點真的不是說我們第一次的釋憲案過去"},{"start":7542.927,"end":7570.126,"text":"第四屆有核市場停建的釋憲案當時本院推派的代表是高裕仁委員、周協委員跟謝啟大委員第五屆的時候319槍擊案的真相調查委員會釋憲案本院代表是高裕仁委員跟陳進興委員以及第六屆的時候國家通訊傳播委員會組織法司法院的釋憲案本院代表由國民黨黨團、親民黨黨團各指派一名代表參與說明"},{"start":7571.647,"end":7596.948,"text":"第四屆、第五屆、第六屆都有相關的潛力可循。」所以如果說真的沒有辦法決議的話,我覺得有潛力、一潛力、沒潛力、院長尊重院長的才智,但絕對不是預設前提跟立場。以上,謝謝。院長等一下,我抗議,嚴重抗議。因為事宜講了半天,還是回到原來的點。我一開始講說沒有所謂院長所謂的新做才智,然後叫人認出來給我們聽的。"},{"start":7598.442,"end":7615.119,"text":"我正下草案協商在三十年內至少七百場,哪一個院長敢這樣做?你現在在講什麼反話?這個叫做尊重院長,執行新法第六十八條怎麼寫?因為院長是要調和一下解疑糾紛的,不是他來掛的,這個我就是這樣,你們都在聽我的,這是民主嗎?"},{"start":7619.469,"end":7641.499,"text":"委員長一來組織法規律很清楚你是意識重力的啊今天我好像問題就是他發生在這個地方嘛結果你還要繞回來炎點災害他好像在教訓你這搞什麼鬼嘛從剛剛發生講完一套你要講二三輪然後人家講話你就不聽不然黃國昌剛剛打我你事外疏於聽聽著我就問他程序這個有什麼我們不可"},{"start":7642.939,"end":7647.264,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案"},{"start":7665.755,"end":7692.715,"text":"好謝謝那我們現在宣告齁因為我們現在有關憲法法庭通知的相關事宜既然我們各黨團還是沒有辦法達成共識我們的想法佔了我們的立場我們是循例來辦理剛剛黃珊珊委員我為什麼請她拜託再重複一句所以現在秘書長跟議事處都是在處理法律程序的問題所以我們是希望遠利辦理有授權你知道剛才講得很清楚你知道問到黃孟凱的我怎麼"},{"start":7696.334,"end":7707.742,"text":"那我想我們等一下交由院會來處理今天沒有列案要表決喔?今天沒有列案要表決喔?連這個都要表決喔?因為沒辦法處理喔?今天議程沒有欸下午兩點半在這裡我們繼續來處理還有五個案子"},{"start":7719.07,"end":7744.246,"text":"第二條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文"},{"start":7747.208,"end":7761.554,"text":"你把這個話已經講得很清楚的話你要把它弄複雜不是啦這有給人家要表決沒有要程序決定要出於表決這個也不要表決這是表決案這有共識這有共識啊這有共識我們我們有時候推人"},{"start":7766.892,"end":7793.854,"text":"今天沒有列這個議案是不能夠院會處理的沒有什麼可以院會沒有列案就表決的事情喔這個直播大家都在看吶韓院長第二個立法院的議事中立如果等一下院長要指派的機關代表就是國民黨跟民眾黨那就代表立法院從頭到尾在國會擴權的法案裡頭是不中立的"},{"start":7795.16,"end":7798.216,"text":"社會都在看。」請韓院長要懸崖勒馬。"},{"start":14557.03,"end":14557.31,"text":"兩點半的?"},{"start":14576.612,"end":14576.872,"text":"國民黨團稍等一會"},{"start":14720.779,"end":14748.037,"text":"好謝謝各黨團的幹部還有各經濟委員會的召集委員跟經濟委員會的委員我們熱情的歡迎今天列席的各位部會首長來我先介紹一下我們經濟部歡迎經濟部的郭部長歡迎我們也歡迎經濟部中小企業及創新署的李署長也歡迎財政部的李政務次長負稅署的葉組長歡迎您"},{"start":14750.202,"end":14759.515,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分"},{"start":14766.697,"end":14787.367,"text":"我們中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案本案經經濟委員會一一三年五月二日舉行第十一屆第一會期第十次全體委員會進行審查由楊瓊英召委擔任主席本案有行政院版本、委員提案以及修正動議共九條那委員會審查的結論"},{"start":14788.874,"end":14801.399,"text":"之序一項一、保留條文兩條第36條之二、第36條之四保留條文需交黨團協商二、其餘條文均照行政院提案條文通過"},{"start":14804.349,"end":14833.341,"text":"本案另於5月15日由楊全雲召委召集黨團協商結論第36條之二及第36條之四均保留,送給院會處理。今天協商會議將針對保留條文兩條來進行協商。我們先請...召集委員需要簡短二要說明嗎?好的,那我們請哪個黨團先發言?提案委員提案委員好,我們請黃珊珊幹事長請發言"},{"start":14835.124,"end":14852.863,"text":"謝謝院長還有各位同仁我想這個法案主要是在中小企業發展條例裡面其實大家的意見都差不多那各黨的版本其實都有希望說能夠在加薪上面能夠有減稅的優惠讓企業願意幫民眾來做加薪因為台灣的問題"},{"start":14854.164,"end":14878.559,"text":"已經不是經濟發展的問題而是經濟在發展但是薪水沒增加所以也希望企業把他們的成果能夠分享給他的員工所以我們把現行的130%提高到200%然後有關24歲年輕人的部分150%的話我們提高到220%那我們希望能夠推動壯世代的部分我們希望在65歲以上繼續工作的人也可以給他有250的"},{"start":14880.08,"end":14882.1,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條"},{"start":14909.486,"end":14917.934,"text":"謝謝臺灣民眾黨黃珊珊幹事長的發言接下來我們請哪位黨團要發言行政部門我們請郭部長請回答"},{"start":14919.375,"end":14940.139,"text":"非常感謝韓院長主持今天的這個協商會議那麼也非常感謝立法院各位委員以及黨團的支持相關這個修正條文第一、二、三十五、三十六之三、三十九、四十等條那麼已經經我們立法院初步審查通過本次保留黨團協商共有兩項條文分別為第36之二條有關徵雇員工以及"},{"start":14947.14,"end":14959.376,"text":"為基層員工加薪的租稅優惠以及委員建議增訂第36之四條有關人才培訓品牌發展健全會計制度租稅優惠那麼在第36之二條有關徵雇員工"},{"start":14962.62,"end":14983.966,"text":"及為基層員工加薪的租稅優惠感謝委員提出各式版本經過行政部門詳細的試算以行政部門所建議的版本租稅效率最大也就是徵僱24歲以下青年或45歲以上中高齡者給予減除率150%為基層員工加薪給予減除率150%懇請委員及黨團支持"},{"start":14991.648,"end":15016.248,"text":"第三十六之四條有關人才培訓品材發展、健全會計制度租稅優惠經行政部門評估後有關人培可參考產創條例第十條第二項將研發人員訓練支出納入中小企業發展條例第三十五條研發投資抵減範圍有關品牌發展租稅優惠可能構成出口"},{"start":15017.369,"end":15033.565,"text":"補貼疑慮違反WTO規範有關健全會計制度支出是企業在經營及發展事業所必須項目政府已在商業會計法任列費用抵減營所稅原建議不推動立法以上"},{"start":15035.533,"end":15039.995,"text":"財政部或其他相關部會沒有補充說明。接下來我們請哪一位黨團要發言?"},{"start":15051.681,"end":15070,"text":"謝謝經濟委員會的委員都很辛苦的大家利益良善希望能夠提出一個修法來協助中小企業的發展然後可以獎勵用租稅的獎勵來對於這個我們的員工來加薪但是民進黨團的立場我們是重點其實應該是36條之二跟36條之四"},{"start":15073.623,"end":15077.408,"text":"三十六條之二我們還是認為是維持現行行政院的提案增僱24歲以下、45歲以上的員工薪資加成"},{"start":15088.24,"end":15098.043,"text":"第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文"},{"start":15111.087,"end":15138.125,"text":"那行政院的版本這所以定是150%其實是經過試算的是認為這個150%的租稅的效益其實是最高的如果說你加成率越高那租稅的淨效率搞不好就是遞減的方向來發展甚至會有負效益的狀況所以這是基於這個專業的租稅的加成率定在哪裡較宜"},{"start":15140.006,"end":15160.016,"text":"我想提案的委員絕對是希望它往正向的發展而不是產生了副效益這個是我們經過專業的試算認為150%是合宜的部分那另外也針對這個研發支出因為具有高度的外溢效果它同時要承擔這個投資成敗的風險所以說產創條例第十條以及現在中小企業發展條例三十五條裡頭"},{"start":15169.321,"end":15173.599,"text":"都有提供研究發展支出的投資來抵稅優惠。」"},{"start":15176.223,"end":15179.826,"text":"當年度抵減15%等同於研發費用加成率75%。」所以說與原本的費用100%減除的話合計就是175%啦所以說基於橫平性跟合理性我們優先是認為150%是最好的效益"},{"start":15200.822,"end":15225.361,"text":"但若在一黨的委員覺得一百五不是太好,那看有沒有什麼空間,但我們目前研判還是認為百分之一百五是最好的這是在三十六條之二的部分那三十六條之四我想在委員會討論的過程經濟部門應該有多次的提出說明要增進第三項的支出來適用投資抵減的話其實要去考慮到會不會去衍生其他層面的問題"},{"start":15226.602,"end":15246.983,"text":"所以研發人員的人才培訓的支出要納入研發支出投資抵減或者是品牌發展支出的投資抵減好先講品牌發展的這個投資抵減品牌發展支出啦要來做投資抵減這好像跟WTO的規範是不符的這個我們不能違反WTO的一個規範反而會影響到"},{"start":15248.561,"end":15275.028,"text":"台灣的國際競爭力還有外資來台的投資意願。」所以這是品牌發展支出的部分我們絕對不能立一個法來違反WTO的規範那至於研發人才的人才培訓支出要不要納入研發支出的投資抵減的這個部分是不是已經在現在中小企業發展條例三十五條的授權辦法裡頭有進一步的規範有沒有需要再來訂是不是"},{"start":15276.092,"end":15300.028,"text":"我覺得這個就不需要有這樣子的重複的作為當然最後一個健全會計制度本來就是企業應盡的義務如果你用投資抵減來獎勵的話我覺得這有一點本來就是他該做的事情所以這幾個理由我們都經過研究也經過跟行政部門然後也去商著在委員會討論的一些過程我們都認為"},{"start":15302.91,"end":15324.808,"text":"三十六至二維持百分之一百五是合宜的,絕對不能產生負面的效應。那三十六至四會跟其他現行的法律,有的是重複的,有些是抵觸了WTO的規範,這個部分都請參議黨的委員,我們都肯定要協助中小企業,但是不要造成了沒有想像到的一些可能產生的衍生的問題。」"},{"start":15326.229,"end":15326.369,"text":"報告完畢。」"},{"start":15341.329,"end":15343.833,"text":"三十六條之二及第三十六條之四"},{"start":15358.953,"end":15383.656,"text":"第三十六條之二重點就在於我國的地性問題尤其針對年輕人我們跟世界各國來比這地性問題是非常嚴肅的議題務必政府要去面對第二個重點三十六條之二也就是我們促進就業率的問題因為我們目前看到臺灣的就業率還是沒有在增長那要怎麼樣去鼓勵"},{"start":15384.877,"end":15395.46,"text":"所以包括在我們5月15日的這個協商當中,針對於所提出的修正東西包括24歲以下或者是65歲以上的這個遞減率有兩個版本,也就是有一個是200一個是200"},{"start":15403.962,"end":15427.69,"text":"二、二十五歲以上未滿三十歲或四十五歲以上未滿六十歲的是兩百。」這個是提案委員都一致。那這個目的就是剛剛我說的解決青年低薪以及促進中高齡的這個就業。那重點在於說,如果目前的現行法律是一百三,那我們只有依據剛剛行政部門所說的,也在我們審查這個"},{"start":15430.171,"end":15447.968,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":15454.634,"end":15473.265,"text":"但是我仍舊要請行政部門你重視到這個問題因為要修改一個法律不是那麼簡單那中小企業我相信佔了我們全國將近九成的就業人口那我們要怎麼樣去照顧他"},{"start":15474.125,"end":15487.212,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文"},{"start":15490.754,"end":15496.216,"text":"三十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條"},{"start":15509.52,"end":15536.463,"text":"正本歸原在我們中小企業的這個部分如果說我們八爪章魚抓這個抓那個要來引對線如果這樣是可行的那為什麼目前我們的低薪為什麼目前我們的這個就業率還是沒有辦法增高這個我覺得要提供給大家以結果論的面向來反對我們整個過程這是一個所以因此在研究人才培訓支出的部分行政部門也同意"},{"start":15537.123,"end":15563.252,"text":"另外還有兩項也就是品牌發展我特別要提出我特別要提出因為我們知道臺灣以前都是OEM都是做別人做出來的產品到世界各國去蓋一個章就十倍價我們很難過臺灣已經有很多可以自創品牌當然你們所提出的如果我們自創品牌銷售到全世界裡頭去會跟WTO的這個部分規劃會卡到"},{"start":15564.372,"end":15592.567,"text":"那這個我也願意退一步但是我仍舊要但書請我們的政府協助我國國內有能力自創品牌的人因為不是那麼簡單的你個人的要自創品牌沒有那麼簡單政府協助他一方面有後盾二方面他資金各方面他有一個鼓勵所以這個部分我願意在這個條文來退但是但書要怎麼樣去協助我們的這個中小企業這是一個"},{"start":15593.807,"end":15611.964,"text":"最後一個,也就是健全會計制度的這個部分剛剛行政部門也有說了但是我不太同意說只用一個說這個是本來你應該要做的你沒有加入目前臺灣的面向跟世界要怎麼接軌"},{"start":15612.825,"end":15625.754,"text":"我們現在不管是AI等這些面向我們在經濟委員會所有的廠商我們不斷的在協助他們怎麼樣的升級、怎麼樣的精準那我們要怎麼樣協助他們在會計帳裡頭可以"},{"start":15627.975,"end":15656.195,"text":"第十四條條文修正草案 進生可以升級。」這個是我們主要提案的這個目的來協助他們我再一次的強調中小企業佔了我們幾乎八成的勞動力中小企業為台灣奠定了這個基礎政府沒有理由不照顧他們怎麼樣協助他們可以提升跟全世界來接軌這是一個重點如果未來他不能跟全世界接軌我想我也不知道未來台灣的經濟會如何以上見言謝謝"},{"start":15657.577,"end":15672.138,"text":"謝謝楊卿英總召的說明接下來我們請柯建銘、楊卿英召委、對不起請柯建銘總召發言、莊瑞雄委員請準備院長、各位理事代表有關於今天我們討論中小企業法案條例我想大家都站在一個同樣的立場"},{"start":15673.66,"end":15686.969,"text":"當然政府如何獎勵中小企業的發展,中小企業大概還是佔台灣一百萬家,這是整個國家一個最大活力的地方。在這裡我想跟各位討教一個事情,從36條有關於36條之四的問題,"},{"start":15693.221,"end":15720.451,"text":"本席參議員過去近來的時候1993年進來以後我都一直在經濟委員會所以我們希望大家回顧一下整個我們用租稅工具來鼓勵這個產生的產業發展這個政策事實上有時而進的那當然要符合一些國際規範第一個從最早大家想想看這個蔣經國時代有所謂蔣投蔣立投資條例蔣投"},{"start":15722.816,"end":15744.823,"text":"當然包括外國人投資條例、法僑非國投資條例都是有,後來都一一廢除了。那為什麼呢?整個企業是面對著整個全球的競爭,並不是由一時一時入稅低減,道具是有限的。所以講頭後來落日以後,我想大家會很清楚有促進產業生意條例,"},{"start":15746.323,"end":15769.638,"text":"那中小企業生意條例也漏日了因為十二十年以後漏日了現在改到創創條例那為什麼這樣呢因為整個產業環境一直變革嘛世界競爭非常加劇的加劇化所以我們要讓我們產業能夠升級最主要產業能夠升級能夠面對競爭所以在豬肉工地方面想跟各位分享一下"},{"start":15770.638,"end":15795.008,"text":"最早的促進產業生意條例有所謂吃鹽瓶頸咖啡他吃完的滴雞,那為什麼?為了六親嘛所以當然也有所謂自動化、人才培訓以及自動品牌那後來那時候我在經營委員會也加入了這個公共用水reuse以及潔能源但是這些都已經過去漏日了"},{"start":15795.828,"end":15822.305,"text":"那我們知道說最早的出行產業生意條例也有所謂新興高科技產業新興中小車業新產業後來都一直在改包括二級、三級算不算還有包括什麼?還有包括工商綜合區早期就是這樣的一個脈絡下來當然這個脈絡下來以後逐漸都是包括個人股東投資低見也沒有了包括創投危機的"},{"start":15823.266,"end":15835.475,"text":"全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條"},{"start":15846.829,"end":15869.158,"text":"自動化、職業自動化現在什麼都自動化到早年那個出產條例出產產業生育條例說自動化它高達稅值一年好幾千億所以那個官方條例的稅值非常嚴重所以後來本來就沒有自動化一種存活了從那個道理你來看待的就是說國際所有關人才培訓的問題"},{"start":15870.038,"end":15897.554,"text":"人才培訓當然楊聰英本人講的沒有錯人是最重要培養人才那當然這樣子做RD的能力要很強就企業才有競爭力人才才是公司的最大資產當然人才每一家公司我們看到包括今天台積電都是他們的資產錢都超過全世界所以我們有關於他資產錢部分人才培訓的部分就是未來發展的面向上面那既然"},{"start":15899.096,"end":15921.136,"text":"廠商條例已經在北京上面有規範了,在這裡就不必再重複處理。」我的看法是這樣。那自動品牌,黑裝品AS嘛、紅基準嘛。那現在,現在就廠牌講,我們每一個人都知道自動品牌和OEM的差別很大。但是呢,能夠在自動品牌、自動品牌能夠在國際市場有被認定"},{"start":15922.714,"end":15940.014,"text":"然後被認定然後拿到一個主導權,那是非常不容易的,坦白講。那至於健年快遞制度要給他註冊優惠,我是覺得這很奇怪啦。那既然快遞法上面也有它可以認列的一部分,"},{"start":15940.782,"end":15969.158,"text":"那我們在這裡要給他租稅優惠這個讓人家感覺起來我們全國所有的中小企業引來自己上市貴公司他都是非法兩套章的樣子這個有點怪怪的本來你就是要很健全快易之路現在所有的公司質疑上面都是法規都很嚴謹的那上市貴公司也有獨董啊獨董他這裡是省紀委員啊所以我們不能回歸就是說"},{"start":15970.373,"end":15987.645,"text":"再給它建成差異資助上面要有資歸優惠,反而是一種汙名化的代名詞。」好像都亂唱錯話,都亂瞎搞的樣子。所以這個有關於三十六條之四,我們要持保留意見,請各位委員能夠了解。至於"},{"start":15989.226,"end":16004.902,"text":"三十六條二我剛才也講過我們在整個中小企業發展條例上面三十五條已經處以過那個研發RD已經納入了包括制裁權也可以反科所以該處以之後回到這個部分"},{"start":16008.306,"end":16025.724,"text":"這個條例是因為十年到,當初是水中的,當初就是吳敦義當行政院長的時候,那時候景氣不好,所以弄出來這個就是說你雇員員工的時候可以給你租稅低減,那時候很有名叫什麼叫平坡條款"},{"start":16026.616,"end":16027.957,"text":"第二條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":16047.113,"end":16072.208,"text":"當然今天時間到了要再延遲的時候當然我知道每一個委員都很希望能夠在租稅的促減率上面能夠多一些來照顧中小企業剛才吳世耀委員也講得很清楚事實上他到這種程度的時候他的賓利相應是有限的這個部分待會請財政部來分析一下我是覺得今天我們都可以很理性來談"},{"start":16075.19,"end":16102.509,"text":"二、長榮83至85、長榮85至175但是呢,有一部分我是覺得大家要深深思考因為長者的部分長者的部分當然民運董事250嘛,是不是啊?那國民董事220嘛,對不對?那民運董事民運企業是200嘛但是很重要就是要長者的部分六十五以上像我這長者像鄭文忠鄭文忠退休了以後鄭文忠不做立委以後"},{"start":16104.629,"end":16118.954,"text":"正宗退休以後他會去當獨董,他薪水是上千萬的所以這個重點一定要去考慮什麼?考慮基層員工啦基層的員工啦所以你不能他本來長得像郭董事長他不當部長的時候"},{"start":16129.144,"end":16132.868,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":16148.946,"end":16166.063,"text":"十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文"},{"start":16167.764,"end":16190.774,"text":"待會財政部試算做一個東西大家再思考看看這樣好不好但是對於三十六條這四個部分我認為應該不要以鎮定這個是已經過去時代的事情時代的產物了以上謝謝柯建銘總召接下來請莊銳雄幹事長發言然後傅坤祺總召請準備謝謝院長我倒有一個"},{"start":16194.495,"end":16215.583,"text":"還有我們在場的協商代表三十六之二和三十六之四我就一併講了你說三十六之二徵雇不管是二十四歲以下四十五歲以上這樣的一個徵雇的一個租稅的一個優惠跟加薪租稅的一個優惠還有三十六條之四你說人才的培訓品牌發展跟健全會計"},{"start":16217.544,"end":16243.525,"text":"這個費用的一個抵減這個當然對中小企業來講的話都是一個幫助但是我倒會覺得說是不是行政部門這裡可以再來看看講清楚啦我相信不管是各黨所提出來這樣的一個整個修正跟行政部門你推了一個相關的案的一些一些方案出來那其實是一致啦都是一致啦"},{"start":16243.985,"end":16268.584,"text":"那實說我的看法是說你徵雇的租稅你的優惠你說到底要提升到多少我相信你們算完以後你要那個效率才是正的話有最大的一個效益的話那推動推動這個才有意義嘛那應該我相信行政部門你們有一個試算的一個標準但是我倒是要特別提出來就是說我們以現在來看的話以產創條例"},{"start":16270.345,"end":16298.146,"text":"相關的一些法令在的你說針對於人才的一個培訓或者說品牌發展這部分尤其是品牌發展我們看到OECD就是說你把它列進去你說到底是不是這個有實質的生產力的一些支出像這些你如果把它放進去的話對於你整個租稅來看的話國際上到底是怎麼樣會有沒有有所刊格的地方你們這個部分確實也要去講清楚"},{"start":16298.846,"end":16326.469,"text":"那我相信整個人才培訓如果說以現在人才培訓他所認列你說整個費用的一個抵減他的營所稅的部分如果沒有相關規定那這樣各黨各黨提出來他又有道理喔他又有道理喔所以相關這一些是不是有沒有重複行政部門應該要講清楚然後他的效率到底是要放在哪一個"},{"start":16327.95,"end":16331.532,"text":"哪一個位階裡面才會產生最大的效益?」"},{"start":16344.373,"end":16366.402,"text":"謝謝張瑞雄委員發言接下來傅崑崙委員發言完吳春日委員請準備吳春日委員發言完請財政部準備說明好請傅崑崙委員請說請傅總召我想這個是一個很嚴肅的問題因為畢竟在臺灣在還是亞洲四小龍之龍首的時候我們都走過那個年代那我很清楚的看到就是說"},{"start":16368.258,"end":16394.361,"text":"當時都是一個OO7的行李箱就跑到沙烏地阿拉伯去了,臺灣人啊。中小企業非常的多。那經過了這40年我們再來看,臺灣到底有成立了多少個大的企業集團。1997年,亞洲金融風暴,韓國整個崩盤。但是人家短短10年時間,2007年就已經超越臺灣了。"},{"start":16395.953,"end":16424.373,"text":"我們現在是不是還要在故步之風原地踏步為什麼韓國能台灣不能為什麼品牌的建立到現在為止台灣到底有幾個跨國性的對不起喔台積電是民國七十五年當時的政策跟智慧累積造成的那現在我們到底對於啊這個品牌的建立國家做了多少事情OEM也會有OEM"},{"start":16426.155,"end":16452.435,"text":"那根本就沒有什麼毛利嘛毛三道四嘛都在拼那個東西所以現在我要特別謝謝已經離席了楊瓊英委員他有在提到這個事情我想這個不管今天比例是如何我想我們給經濟部做一個參考在這個政府裡面我們到底為我們的產業界中小企業能夠把它拉拔起來我們國家出了多少力氣"},{"start":16454.022,"end":16478.086,"text":"二條條文修正草案、全面就業人才培養的方向、研發的部分政府的支持是如何。」我覺得這個部分都可以請經濟部提出相對應的一些看法讓我們一起來了解因為畢竟在產業界政府就是協助他們為什麼韓國從一個"},{"start":16483.268,"end":16509.466,"text":"貨幣崩潰的情況之下1997到2006年就超越台灣人均所得整個都上來GDP所以我們在這裡要特別希望我們經濟部拿出立法委員來做相關的這些提案跟建議都是好事但是怎麼樣下猛要因為現在畢竟我們跟其他國家比起來整個東南亞"},{"start":16511.549,"end":16522.057,"text":"第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":16536.769,"end":16564.048,"text":"但是這不是說只有提案委員提出來我們行政院相對應的是想法是什麼、版本是什麼、理由是什麼能夠帶來什麼樣的影響、未來有什麼樣的刺激能夠讓企業有什麼樣的成長甚至成為智力品牌甚至成為跨國的大企業不再是007在跑沙烏地阿拉伯我們都經過了那個年代台灣的一流的人才不要再外流了就是這樣"},{"start":16567.452,"end":16587.01,"text":"對於這個不管是二十四歲以下六十五歲以上這兩百二其實也不是很多啦二十五歲以上三十歲或四十五歲以上未滿六十五這個兩百其實啊這個只是政府的杯水車薪啦我們要不要去支持中小企業"},{"start":16589.09,"end":16617.651,"text":"那對於這個36條之四這個現在經濟部的版本是人才培育的部分是OK嗎是OK嗎那未來就是說這個品牌的發展還有研發的投資這些是不是我們經濟部有一個比較明確的態度我們修法隨時可以修除了這次以外我們還是可以修經濟部提出版本我們也可以支持好不好"},{"start":16619.085,"end":16624.908,"text":"財政部及經濟部請準備。臺灣明年2025年進入超高齡社會我一直到這裡來一直不斷的疾呼我發現我們的行政部門我們的立法部門一直都沒有把這問題放在心上"},{"start":16648.641,"end":16670.968,"text":"對,這是創世代,這也是我們的副會長然後呢2034年台灣一半的人要超過50歲2045年台灣一半的人要超過60歲國發會主委有沒有在這裡,這是國發會的資料台灣未來的主力是倒三角形,整個的工作的主力都在這裡喔"},{"start":16672.523,"end":16688.209,"text":"但是大家都還是用金字塔的我好像就是下面的年輕人的勞工未來不管是生產消費都是在高齡層這是台灣未來的社會我們部長在這裡談大健康才能很有遠見我這裡提到了"},{"start":16690.871,"end":16691.692,"text":"第一件事有幾個意義?第一件就是就業"},{"start":16709.952,"end":16716.196,"text":"台灣65歲上的就業率只有9%、韓國有35%、日本25%,我們遠遠的低於這一個。這一個生態如果我們還不去鼓勵,不可能改變這種狀況。再來第二點,"},{"start":16729.105,"end":16748.353,"text":"第二點接下來台灣十年就是面臨的退休潮所有的老師傅都要退休了你知道中小企業幾乎都老師傅啦年輕人都到大企業了到台積電了中小企業這一些因為老師傅都高薪嘛"},{"start":16749.633,"end":16760.718,"text":"年輕到了所以你如果沒有在獎勵的話這個退休草對中小企業是一個大的傷害所以政府如果沒有補助沒有鼓勵的話連國營事業都有20%的退休草要離職了你要舉手等一下"},{"start":16769.264,"end":16781.369,"text":"第三個面臨勞動高齡社會勞動工作就是最好的解方不是用衛福部在那邊長照啦你給他工作他就不會臥床啦"},{"start":16782.546,"end":16812.066,"text":"所以鼓勵政府寧願把代價花在這個部分而不是把錢我們現在的社會已經到達八千億了啦一直增加這一些啦應該把錢鼓勵他如何能夠工作這個工作不僅是他健康而且社交整個這個意義非常大要從這個角度第四個層面從市場面我們現在經濟部我們郭部長在推大健康經濟啦大家今天的消費者就是這些高齡者啦"},{"start":16813.206,"end":16833.032,"text":"培養這些活絡他們要出來才會消費嘛,他們要出來社會走動才能在家裡就臥床了。所以這個非常龐大的內需市場,包括我們儘管會彭主委在這裡要推動的釋放,我們知道三分之二的財富在這些壯實在的手上"},{"start":16833.852,"end":16852.354,"text":"你把他丟在家裡你以為他養老啊還是什麼這個是一個未來叫長壽經濟長壽經濟勞動工作所以為什麼我們要很鼓勵他們出來這是以上我的請求啦就是給這些高齡者65歲以上大大的鼓勵拜託各位謝謝"},{"start":16854.028,"end":16856.529,"text":"三條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":16868.578,"end":16895.377,"text":"主席還有各位財政部部份我先做那個就是剛才委員有提到就是有關就是這個百分比就是徵戶員工或者是基層員工這個百分之一百五十或者是委員們提案的百分之一百七十五或者是兩百或者是兩百五它的效益是怎麼樣那基本上其實上次我們在召委主持的會議的時候其實就已經有請經濟部做過相關的評估就對各位提案來提供相關的評估"},{"start":16896.758,"end":16919.565,"text":"經過他們評估的結果,目前我們初步看起來是行政院的提案它從整個徵雇人員、薪資總、還有就是租稅損失跟租稅創造的效益部分整個算出來的話,它的淨效益是最大的所以那時候我們才覺得說院版的150它可能是效益最大那次加的大概是175%還是正的效益,大概是次加"},{"start":16924.326,"end":16927.35,"text":"第四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案"},{"start":16941.067,"end":16942.088,"text":"三十六條之四 人才培訓"},{"start":16958.966,"end":16984.863,"text":"人才培訓的部分因為以前它也是一個單獨的獎勵但是在88年12月28號當時修正促產條例以後這些人才培訓跟品牌形象的支出就是因為它已經不符合整個國際租稅的規範還有就是WTO相關的認定為是一個禁止性的補貼不能提供這樣的租稅補貼所以那時候在修正促產條例的時候整個把這兩個租稅優惠就整個徹底的拿掉"},{"start":16988.966,"end":16990.267,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例"},{"start":17010.964,"end":17016.527,"text":"其實我們現在對於研發的人才培訓的支出我們可以在現在的中小企業發展條例的35條還有就是產業創新條例的第十條裡面它都有研發支出的投資抵減那有關研發人員的人才培訓的相關支出本來就可以納到那裡面去適用相關的投資抵減的優惠所以我們覺得這個地方應該是不需要再重複來訂定"},{"start":17036.697,"end":17042.298,"text":"第二,品牌形象支出,特別重申,因為違反WTO禁止性補貼的規範,因為他們特別認為這個部分是對出口還有鼓勵外銷的補貼是一個禁止的行為,所以當時促產條例在88年落日的時候就整個把這個條例,因為違反這相關的規定就把它刪除了。"},{"start":17062.683,"end":17083.505,"text":"另外對於健全會計制度的部分我們也很認同就是我們對於中小企業希望能夠健全他的會計制度這是一件非常重要的工作但是當然因為我們現在的商業會計法裡面本身已經有相關的規範因為對於企業來講他的會計處理就是一個很基礎的工作"},{"start":17083.905,"end":17096.877,"text":"他本來就應該做的這件法律的義務而且在商業會計法裡面還有相關的規範就是如果他有違反相關的規定的時候譬如他沒有設置會計帳簿啊或者是沒有依照規定保存帳簿憑證的話都會有相關的處罰"},{"start":17100.16,"end":17123.756,"text":"所以我們覺得這個部分其實企業本身在企業經營狀況的時候他自己必須要健全他的會計制度那我也在這邊可以補充說明一下其實在我們租稅措施上面對於這些就是中小企業來講我們也是鼓勵這個中小企業能夠健全他的會計制度所以在我們的租稅申報上面我們有個特別的優惠措施叫做擴大書面審核的制度"},{"start":17124.156,"end":17125.978,"text":"三十六條之四條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案"},{"start":17146.976,"end":17172.401,"text":"國際租稅規範一方面企業本身應該要做的一些事情我們也有相關的輔導措施在研發人才培訓上面也有相關的規範是不是三十六條之四就可以不要在這邊再另外訂定至於三十六條之二的部分就是各委員有不同的比例那就看看今天各委員討論的結果這個部分我們原則上尊重各位委員最後討論的結果"},{"start":17175.638,"end":17204.457,"text":"市長講得非常清楚補充介紹一位貴賓我們金管會彭主委到場歡迎您我們請經濟部部長發言然後接下來雙位熊委員請準備各位我的我們經濟部的看法這樣就是說現在的這個世界的這個經濟有大幅度的這個因為大家的資訊非常的容易取得所以那個要分國內市場跟國外市場"},{"start":17205.637,"end":17228.869,"text":"我個人是建議說對國外市場我們應該要把台灣的企業整合一下我們用供應鏈的概念然後一個品牌然後對國外的企業做一些approach就是說這樣子的話比較容易讓國外的消費者或者國外的客戶能夠很清楚的所以我們的品牌就叫台灣SELECT"},{"start":17229.667,"end":17232.408,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條例部分條例"},{"start":17255.296,"end":17269.901,"text":"那至於中小企業建立品牌,過去中小企業署或是我們經濟部就已經有很多的方案在幫助他們所以這部分我比較沒有那麼熟悉,我請我們署長來跟各位說明一下署長請簡短"},{"start":17271.562,"end":17285.591,"text":"包括在這個品牌的協助上我們有長期有輔導廠商去建立品牌然後還有輔導國內的產業去建立一個整個國家的一個品牌跟產業的形象"},{"start":17286.972,"end":17292.676,"text":"第二、健全會計或財務制度部分,中小企業處長年與各地工業會、商業會及相關協會等免費義務協助強化整個財務會計和體制。這方面專業人才的指導可視為減輕中小企業對這方面的支出。所以這些輔導工作進一步站在"},{"start":17312.988,"end":17340.07,"text":"長年度站在積極推動的部分去進行。」我們也非常謝謝委員的指教。署長時常去中小企業拜訪齁?你有時常去啊?我感覺你皮膚特別黑,曬太陽曬對不對?接下來我們專位熊委員發言,柯建銘總召請準備。謝謝院長齁,其實我剛剛的問題齁,我們財政部跟經濟部這邊其實也沒有回答啦。你36條之四的部分喔,我想要確認一下,碳幾年喔,"},{"start":17340.53,"end":17343.172,"text":"三十六條之二條文修正草案 。但問題就是說如果那一部分金額沒有很大的話"},{"start":17356.159,"end":17383.804,"text":"財政部其實只可以再考慮一下我不認為經濟部他會去反對經濟部其實要剛才那些中小企業你叫一番對他講比較好意思這應該是你財政部來講啊涉及到幾乎都是租稅減免啦但是我倒很關心一點就是說我們現在你那個品牌發展的部分你說你減免是不是舉個實例你說對我這一些以後我外銷我在競爭的時候到最後影響到我日貨品牌外銷國際的一個限制"},{"start":17384.364,"end":17388.327,"text":"三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":17401.897,"end":17419.943,"text":"可以稍微修正的我倒覺得還好這個反而是財政部的問題叫經濟部表態這個就比較沒意思了因為你這個沒意思付這個給賺多少而已這樣發經濟更好而已但是那個三十六條之四那個整個你對品牌的一個發展你去把它做補助的話"},{"start":17421.283,"end":17441.595,"text":"你這個部分你也列入到租稅的優惠我很擔心就是說會限制到我們以後到國際上去行銷如果有這樣的話你們也要跟你們要明白講出來啊你不然大家修這種案子真的是要幫助中小企業啊但我擔心你們沒有講清楚到時候我們修了法以後又要害到人家這也不行啊好 柏定 那個 次長"},{"start":17446.912,"end":17451.793,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":17469.158,"end":17498.138,"text":"我是覺得三十六條之事應該大家比較有共識啊三十六條之事啊因為包括你說也總統企業這個會議、會計資料的補助上面那剛才部長還講得很清楚嘛那個財務部是財務部還是國務部長講的啊我們現在有要傳傳嘛擴大這個擴大簡化措施嘛讓讓他們稅金能夠能夠繳得比較少啊這些都有都有總統部長從業界來都很清楚"},{"start":17499.039,"end":17514.193,"text":"但是我認為就是說品牌那個部分當然我們直接補助直接扣除減稅的話那可能就有問題當然剛才部長講說這個現在是台安品牌的selective"},{"start":17515.134,"end":17533.735,"text":"是一個打情價的事業供應鏈的概念,不可能一家公司它當然已經有財源鏈的垂整了,這樣才能夠應付國際整個競爭,一定要進入打情價的時代,所以三條之事我是覺得我們有想跟他比較保守一點、比較好一點"},{"start":17534.415,"end":17548.462,"text":"倒是就是說有關於這個剛才吳春榮委員講的我看他好像對這方面也蠻內行的很出眾這可以肯定因為不是我也是老人"},{"start":17550.827,"end":17578.567,"text":"但是我是退休以後就不就業了所以我現在講起來我們大家能對於這個老人就業人口將來是在國家一個很重要的一個勞動力以及他們業績的經營等等都不錯都很重要世界各國都是這樣因為勞動力的減少包括人才減少的時候是一個國家一個競爭力摔壞的時候所以我們把這個找回來"},{"start":17579.868,"end":17593.864,"text":"當然我是比較建議一個委員基層員工啦我用在基層員工就好基層員工上面用在基層員工但是這個有關於我們將來這個有收益要多少"},{"start":17595.626,"end":17617.579,"text":"二十五條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二"},{"start":17623.724,"end":17650.18,"text":"謝謝柯總 接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言 洪孟凱委員請準備好 謝謝主席 我想大家都講完了那個剛剛聽到財政部次長所說的其實我聽到還蠻高興他還說次加的叫做175所以顯然是還是有不錯的計算方式那我想每個黨團的態度都一樣希望能夠企業加薪能夠抵稅然後讓"},{"start":17651.519,"end":17674.603,"text":"七月有機會搶人才,因為台灣的低薪環境真的是讓很多的人才外流。那七月為什麼要加薪?因為他有減稅,所以他才會願意加薪。我想這個是良性循環,所以我會具體建議說是不是在這個175跟我們的200再做一些調整,但是150的話我希望民進黨團跟經濟部也不用堅持,我想如果影響不大"},{"start":17676.499,"end":17683.505,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":17701.391,"end":17703.973,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條"},{"start":17712.998,"end":17736.788,"text":"好感謝院長我想我們在經濟委員會那時候的協商第一次逐條審查的時候就是我在經濟委員會的時候要求說我們的財政部門應該要去有一個算式告訴我們來了解說如果說現在是130、24歲以下是150現行的比例那我們各委員有版本包括說行政院有150包括有175、180、200"},{"start":17738.889,"end":17757.41,"text":"那到底我們會有多少的影響以及會有多少的效果我先開宗明義講在經濟委員會第一次逐條審查的時候其實我們財政部門並沒有準備這個資料也因此我們講是說要在協商的時候有這樣的資料那剛剛有聽到我們財政部次長講是說"},{"start":17760.057,"end":17776.108,"text":"最佳的一個情況是150次加是175那有沒有其他的一個調整如果所有其他調整可能會這個邊際效益遞減我聽起來是這樣子那如果說以這個專業考量我想我們都尊重財政部門因為財政部門一定是支柱必較"},{"start":17776.949,"end":17798.374,"text":"那如果說這樣的話以150或是175為概念是一般的員工來去看因為現在員工一般員工就是130嘛我們現行條文是130那24歲以下是150我們就希望是說24歲以下以及65歲以上的壯士蛋我想這也是國民黨黨團"},{"start":17799.874,"end":17827.12,"text":"寫出來我們的比例其實我們還希望能夠更細是25歲以上未滿30歲以及45歲以上未滿65歲但我想今天我們不堅持就是說在這個條文裡面一定要有一般員工跟24歲以下65歲以上的兩個級距為什麼?因為第一我們當然是鼓勵一般的中小企業能夠來做加薪抵稅的概念但第二我們也更希望能夠讓"},{"start":17828.3,"end":17832.189,"text":"新進的員工能夠讓這些中小企業能夠來去聘請年輕的朋友,或者是65歲以上的壯士代。」"},{"start":17838.561,"end":17865.919,"text":"等下是不是請財政部門這邊來去說明一下如果說以這樣的兩個集聚方向為一個概念的話能夠有多少的比例是你們認為是現行的制度底下或說你們評估之後效果會是最佳的我想用你們的一個角度來去看效果最佳那我們再來決定那第二36條之事我想我們剛剛經濟委員會的召委楊潔文委員也有講了"},{"start":17866.499,"end":17891.246,"text":"他可以認同就是人才培育的部分但另外兩個部分我們不堅持所以說就是品牌發展的部分我們不堅持所以所以說我覺得說在如果說36之四我們有一個共識的話那可以基本上36之四可以有一個方向但36之二我覺得應該要聽財政部門我們就是這兩個族群的集聚你們給我們一個說法謝謝"},{"start":17893.342,"end":17919.56,"text":"那個這樣好不好建議財政部跟經濟部我們稍微休息一下我們這邊討論你們草泥一個條文出來那洪文凱書記長剛才也講過了三十六條之四那這邊木木茄圍跟柯總召這邊還有共同學一代就不太堅持了那如果這樣的話就三十六條之二那麻煩你們盡可能尊重各不同黨團委員的意見"},{"start":17921.001,"end":17926.186,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":18786.92,"end":18796.195,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":18812.403,"end":18836.356,"text":"再一次感謝經濟部財政部各位列席官員謝謝各位黨團所有成員經過我們再一次的溝通之後我們達成了一個共識我現在唸給大家聽我們以行政院版本為基礎第36條之二請各黨團幹部能夠仔細聆聽中小企業徵僱一定人數之二十四歲以下或六十五歲以上本國級基層員工"},{"start":18838.357,"end":18860.22,"text":"且提高該企業整體薪資給付總額時,得就其徵雇該員工所支付薪資金額之百分之二百限度內,至其徵雇當年度營業事業所得額中減除。中小企業調高本國籍基層員工至平均薪資給付水準時,"},{"start":18861.755,"end":18889.196,"text":"德舊非因法定最低工資調整而增加支付本國籍現職基層員工薪資金額之百分之一百七十五限度內至其增加薪資當年度營業事業所得額中減除但因徵雇員工所致增加之薪資給付金額已適用前項規定者不得重複計入"},{"start":18891.311,"end":18919.221,"text":"前兩項徵雇員工之對象及人數、企業整體薪資給付總額、基層員工範圍及平均薪資給付水準計算方式、核定機關、申請依具備之要件、申請期限、申請程序及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同財政部定之。"},{"start":18922.989,"end":18923.951,"text":"三十六條之四復旦決議。」"},{"start":18933.427,"end":18961.406,"text":"有關中小企業研究發展人員之人才培訓支出列入中小企業發展條例第三十五條研究發展支出適用投資抵減範圍與未來訂定執法規投資抵減辦法時予以明定。徐議員我再念一遍嗎?再念一遍我再念一遍"},{"start":18963.697,"end":18989.458,"text":"有關中小企業研究發展人員之人才培訓支出列入中小企業發展條例第三十五條研究發展支出適用投資抵減範圍,於未來訂定執法規投資抵減辦法時予以明定。」沒問題啊?沒問題?好。OK。"},{"start":18991.69,"end":19015.866,"text":"那我們現在宣布一下草野協商的結論也要麻煩各黨團仔細聆聽我們協商結論一、第三十六條之二條文照協商條文通過如後付二、第三十六條之四條文不予新增三、其餘條文均照審查會審查結果通過四、通過附帶決議一項如後付"},{"start":19020.132,"end":19042.753,"text":"請問各黨團代表有沒有意見?那請大家再等一下,我們附帶決議先印一下,請專略選委發言那我再詢問一下,因為他那個36條之後我們這邊一直在講說本國籍基層員工我們在講基層員工不是就是在講中小企業裡面的本國籍員工嗎?為什麼還要再加本國籍?會不會有罪文?"},{"start":19046.055,"end":19074.72,"text":"我是說他們有沒有特別的定義沒有關係財政部理事長請說基本上是沒有特別定義啦基本上就是希望都是鼓勵我們本國員工嘛就聘願我們年輕的本國籍員工這樣子請侯孟凱委員發言是那這我也是請教我們大家都願意為中小企業來努力我們也都照顧基層員工但你在這裡面特別新增基層兩個字那你的定義是什麼"},{"start":19076.415,"end":19102.098,"text":"因為你原本的條文裡面都是寫本國籍員工嘛是是是那因為法條我們應該要嚴謹我怕的是說通過之後中小企業無所適從什麼樣認定是基層什麼樣認定是非基層是年薪超過多少是基層年薪這個經濟部他們因為我們這個在授權執法規裡面會有然後經濟部有初步統計過是不是這個部分請經濟部來說明"},{"start":19103.949,"end":19114.351,"text":"對所以說我現在就說因為條文之後一定會被挑戰就是說基層的定義基層員工定義是什麼月薪五萬元以下叫基層五萬元以上是高層還是怎麼樣"},{"start":19117.096,"end":19140.085,"text":"那個李署長要補充嗎?那目前是五萬元以下啦那未來會6.2萬元以下就是這個法通過以後你現在說目前是五萬,未來是什麼時候?就是這個法通過以後通過以後就6.2萬"},{"start":19141.687,"end":19165.544,"text":"六二二就是界限就對了是不是?會在執法明定執法上面會明定OK好那各位黨團幹部就在我們等最後附帶決議一個文字稿好OK印下去了下去了好的好的都傳了那現在已經發到各位黨團幹部手上那再請各位黨團幹部看一下我們這個三四"},{"start":19167.737,"end":19183.748,"text":"三十六條之四的一個附帶決議有關中小企業研究發展人員之人才培訓支出列入中小企業發展條例第三十五條研究發展支出適用投資抵減範圍於未來訂定執法規投資抵減辦法時予以明定。大家沒有意見嗎?"},{"start":19184.488,"end":19187.009,"text":"好,沒有意見太好了,非常感謝大家"},{"start":19463.622,"end":19482.666,"text":"謝謝各位內閣官員請坐接下來跟各位黨團幹部來特別介紹今天列席的我們內閣的閣員第一個是金管局的彭主任委員歡迎您在證券期貨交易所張局長歡迎您臺灣證交所林董事長歡迎您"},{"start":19487.642,"end":19499.607,"text":"總經理檢總經理財政法人中華民國證券櫃台買賣中心陳董事長李總經理財政部理事長負稅署業主長勞動部勞動條件就業平等師王專門委員法務部林參事"},{"start":19513.192,"end":19531.184,"text":"向各位黨團報告也向各位閣員報告我們現在討論第二案有國民黨跟臺灣民眾黨黨團提出《證券交易法第十四條條文修正草案》那只有兩個黨團提出請本條文進附二讀我們請提案的國民黨黨團先說明民眾黨團請準備請國民黨團請說明請"},{"start":19542.285,"end":19557.385,"text":"對,你就他們講完,他們提案了,再簽了。對,沒有關係,民眾黨團請先說明。黃珊、蔡恩委員請先說明,然後國民黨團請準備。好,謝謝主席。我想這個案子是我們在財委會提出來主要是針對希望"},{"start":19559.879,"end":19572.935,"text":"中小企業加薪增加扣抵。這是針對上市上櫃公司,所以放在政交法裏面。政交法相關條文主要是在現行條文裏面有關企業將來"},{"start":19575.839,"end":19603.396,"text":"他的盈餘要提撥一定的比例作為員工加薪那這個比例的話我們希望是由主管機關跟勞動部一起來商量定之那主要是針對一樣也是希望達到一定的加薪之後能夠做相關的扣抵那主要是商事會公司可能沒有扣抵的需求他主要是用盈餘來分配所以我們是在這一條法條裡面以盈餘提撥的比例來作為員工加薪的部分所以就這個部分請大家能夠支持謝謝"},{"start":19604.827,"end":19606.568,"text":"條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分"},{"start":19621.072,"end":19645.505,"text":"二、人才要怎麼留下來我想台灣普遍低薪的問題我們一定要來解決我有很多很多各個產業別的人才現在都留到東南亞去了留到大陸去了我們要留住這些人才這就是過去我們的中小企業起來現在都成為上市上規公司所以把這些人才留下來沒有其他的方式"},{"start":19646.641,"end":19667.684,"text":"整個薪資結構必須要來調整。」那我們現在這個等於是直接打強心劑。願意提撥更高的比例,盈餘讓員工來分享。員工也會更盡力的留在這個公司裡面,然後再更加的努力。就等於是員工也是股東的一個概念。"},{"start":19669.133,"end":19678.683,"text":"三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案"},{"start":19693.327,"end":19702.198,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十七條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案"},{"start":19711.551,"end":19738.218,"text":"所以我們現在就是希望產業能夠全面升級以外還要把人才留在臺灣所以我們認為公司的盈餘應該要適度的增加提撥給員工一起來分紅就是加薪的一個概念然後給他們一個出稅的一個減讓好不好謝謝謝謝傅坤吉總召的發言接下來請柯建銘總召發言莊委員請準備各位議席官員"},{"start":19739.779,"end":19764.291,"text":"剛才我們還通過中小企業發展條例那中小企業去聘員工的時候我們給他租稅抵減率他有支出的我們給他租稅抵減那包括黃昌庚委員所談的和這個胡文煦委員所談的胡總統所談的就是說要留人才、要搶人才但是呢"},{"start":19765.37,"end":19790.436,"text":"我們現在談這個是不是你所謂強心計我認為這個大家邏輯上要先順一下第一個所謂增加法增加法規定整個證券交易的有序規則我想副總召一定很清楚增加法的問題那增加法規定包括炒股等等都有規定、內心交易等等整個證券市場上的一個規範"},{"start":19793.275,"end":19807.521,"text":"這個,哪一一把這個問題放在增加法,是不是對?這個是有問題。有關於公司,這個市長,這個公司的治理,這個是在公司法裡面上,有所規範。"},{"start":19808.843,"end":19836.463,"text":"公共司法公共法兩百三十五條之一,員工要加薪多少,那是公共司法規定,各個公司章程自己規定,而且各個公司樣態是不一樣的。大公司、小公司、不同的公司,他本身他自己的樣態競爭利益上面,他應該用哪一種方式來給員工鼓勵。過去我們常常看到有所謂員工分紅配顧,"},{"start":19837.662,"end":19841.546,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":19858.842,"end":19881.297,"text":"住宿舍及員工福利等是一個總體面來講但是今天這個法寫在這裏最大的問題是甚麼呢它是要讓上市的公司應該繳稅金我們給他遞減掉換言之就是說用國家的錢去幫上市公司加薪這個邏輯完全顛倒"},{"start":19885.219,"end":19906.606,"text":"你本來要交稅金的錢,現在你沒人交稅金,你只能加薪我給你抵稅這跟我們剛才在談中小企業發展條例是完全不同邏輯喔中小企業是要自己去請人、請人我們再發錢出去的哪裡有說我們是在保護,這是擁護財團嗎?這是針對財團,上次的公司都公開發行的啦,都是財團啦"},{"start":19912.594,"end":19935.841,"text":"你臺灣應該繳的稅,你臺灣一天應該繳的稅,你去用在營工、薪資加薪商我給你抵稅,他都不去繳稅,不可能有這種狀態這邏輯是往前逆轉的所以大家要想清楚,好像是要,我是要,要用這個流入文財流入文財每一家公司他自己,公司法是自己規定的,他自己,章程裡面就是規範的我們要強調的是,現在是公司自己的時代"},{"start":19937.168,"end":19949.142,"text":"三十二公司還有新籌委員會讀總是新籌委員會委員所以整個三十二公司不同產業別有不同的競爭面向"},{"start":19951.174,"end":19970.365,"text":"大小有不同競爭面向,大到一種程度的時候,如果穩固它會來競爭力,當然是在研發上面,小的要變成南海,那當然它每一個公司的產業別不一樣,所以我今天在這裡強調就是說,看來是說"},{"start":19973.626,"end":19995.087,"text":"三十位公司結稅,叫他拿去加薪,但是你拿應該繳稅金去加薪,你就不去繳稅,這個邏輯是完全不通的所以只要謹慎想很想,不能笑,這就嚴肅的問題坦白講我等一下問金管會、問金管、問財政部,而且現在坦白講在鼓勵這個"},{"start":19996.849,"end":20010.573,"text":"在國益上面要加薪等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等"},{"start":20014.614,"end":20039.42,"text":"這有很多不同的措施,反正市民委員現在已經我從今天聽國務局委員他所言論台灣好像是完全沒有競爭力的國家好像台灣在整個世界評比上面是平均一個分我們現在股票只是多少,台灣還是有競爭力的但是我們要扶弱,要扶弱啦,記輕"},{"start":20041.42,"end":20060.535,"text":"不是讓這個負責他越繳稅越少這邏輯完全顛倒這是請大家在這一點上面要想清楚待會請我們財政部有機會會談一下因為這個法規範在不同地方公司法能跑到政教法上面去"},{"start":20065.288,"end":20075.648,"text":"專位熊委員發言之後副會務委員二次發言然後就請金管會財政部準備說明再接下來請黃山委員發言我們請行政部門等下表達意見請專位熊委員"},{"start":20078.243,"end":20101.838,"text":"謝謝謝謝我們院長還有各位協商代表今天這個政交法這個的一個修正案我請各位看一下我們公司法第235條之一公司在章程應該在章程裡面去定名當年度獲利狀況的定額跟比例分派員工酬勞但是呢"},{"start":20102.818,"end":20126.033,"text":"這個公司上有累積虧損的時候營運彌補也就是說經營公司本來就會有賺還有有的時候可能也會有賠那我們現在把它弄一個定額的一個比例針對於上市跟上位公司這個很怪這個就變成說上市上位公司的部分你只要我給員工多少的我政府提供一定的一個結稅給你抵稅"},{"start":20128.533,"end":20149.114,"text":"我們剛剛在審的是針對中小企業可見你現在又變成是給上市上櫃的那又變成是說假設我是中小企業的員工那你現在就變成我們立法院現在通過這樣的一個條例是給優惠上市上櫃拿我中小企業員工所付的我們的這些繳的稅"},{"start":20151.457,"end":20163.293,"text":"來支援上市上櫃的人。」這個我就覺得這個邏輯就不通,剛跟我們剛所通過的這樣一個美意就有所衝突了。更何況啊,經營公司裡面本來就是有可能會賺,有可能會賠,而且呢,"},{"start":20168.3,"end":20183.952,"text":"最主要說如果你是上市跟上櫃的話你現在就是比如說他最在意的就是說我是不是台灣高興這個一百企業的裡面的我如果被列進去的話我本來就是大家都搶著要到我這個公司裡面來啊我覺得應該是用這樣的一個方式"},{"start":20184.853,"end":20212.674,"text":"反而是不是會比較好一點?」所以我是對於台灣民眾黨是沒有講說沒有講到扣稅的部分可是國民黨你們這個部分就有提到這個部分是不是可以大家再來討論一下不然我很擔心剛剛你們提供的是大家一起來協助這個中小企業可是這個案一通過以後又變成說我中小企業的員工我賺了錢然後我又要來支援這個上市上櫃公司"},{"start":20213.294,"end":20237.075,"text":"這個我覺得是比較沒有道理更何況公司法針對這個部分反而定的更詳細你本來就是在章程裡面要去想清楚而且公司真的會有賺有賠那做這樣的一個修訂我是覺得可以再值得討論我也想聽聽這個行政部門的看法好 謝謝接下來我們請傅坤錦文發言請金管會財政部準備我要特別強調齁"},{"start":20242.133,"end":20259.107,"text":"上市上柜公司是佔台灣的一整年國家GDP的百分之多少?絕大多數的上市公司就代表中華民國整體的競爭力跟生產力所有的大部分的人才都在這裡"},{"start":20261.55,"end":20286.456,"text":"那我們今天集體的薪資水平這不是我們用喊口號可以就喊完自己爽完就算了這跟其他國家比嘛我剛剛已經講過了嘛跟日本、新加坡、香港怎麼去比嘛這問題就在這裡嘛那今天我們說長期在這種環境裡面自滿那我們到底能夠流出多少人才"},{"start":20287.455,"end":20307.702,"text":"而且這跟中小企業這跟完全兩回事嘛什麼傑、好像我們在傑平、傑平濟富這邏輯就完全錯誤嘛是你要繳的稅不是中小企業繳的稅來貼你上市上位公司這完全邏輯這完全對經濟商業不懂嘛這完全經濟不懂嘛"},{"start":20308.601,"end":20330.181,"text":"這就是根本是你本來應該要繳給國家的稅這個部分去刺激你公司能夠讓你公司的員工有更多的收益公司自治原則這本來就是這樣但是我們國家是給你一個誘因讓你能夠有更大的力量留住人才"},{"start":20331.924,"end":20355.131,"text":"這怎麼會是怎麼會是好像拿中小企業的錢我們今天很務實的在講事情嘛是不是拿中小企業他徵聘人是國家給他減稅啊徵聘人國家給他減稅那像是貴公司是你自己少繳一點稅但是給你的誘因是什麼你要把這盈餘多提撥給你的員工"},{"start":20356.997,"end":20384.654,"text":"不是要上市不是中小企業繳的稅拿到你上市貴公司來補貼這兩件事情嘛對不對這完全不是怎麼回事嘛比喻都不對嘛對不對然後這個公司治理原則你有累積虧損本來就有累積虧損嘛累積虧損本來就可以對不對未來的營業可以抵嘛抵十對不對這個十年以內都可以抵嘛五年還是十年以內現在現行是五年還是十年"},{"start":20386.522,"end":20414.39,"text":"十年限期十年以內可以抵稅。」這抵到就是你這個坑鋪滿了以後就可以派息派盈餘嘛這但是跟員工的待遇這還是兩件事情嘛對不對所以我們今天要針對題目來討論這個題目的問題我們今天國家的集體上市櫃公司的薪資本來就是跟我們鄰近的這些國家我們過去本來在台灣的黃金時代就沒有辦法像日本這麼高的薪資那是事實"},{"start":20415.731,"end":20441.086,"text":"但是在新加坡在香港以前遠遠不及台灣的時候對我民國78年去聖桃沙新加坡他們落後成什麼樣子現在薪資是我們的多少倍那更不要說我們這裡一流人才跑到澳洲去打工對不對去做屠宰做什麼我們薪水我們的三倍所以我們今天很務實的討論這個問題"},{"start":20444.247,"end":20450.387,"text":"這上市規公司是我們國家最主要最重要的GDP產值都在這些地方我們讓這些人才留下來好不好"},{"start":20451.996,"end":20479.667,"text":"謝謝傅坤祺總召的發言接下來我們聽一下行政部門金管會財政部的報告之後黃珊珊委員、吳思瑤委員跟莊瑞雄委員請準備我們先請彭主委請是主席、各位委員、各位各部會同仁那個有關證交法第十四條修正那個本會的說明如下第一個其實這次修正有兩個條我先說一下國民黨團所提的"},{"start":20480.467,"end":20507.685,"text":"十四條條文修正草案第五項有一個地方增加了所謂的個別酬金的揭露首先就我們政交法現行的規定對於董監的那個酬金的揭露是採統包式的揭露我們這次的修正是提說要先做個別的全部的揭露過去我們是基於市場競爭以及個人隱私的考量我們是原則採就是原則上是個別不揭露"},{"start":20508.766,"end":20524.862,"text":"就不個別揭露但例外情況公開的方式。」所以我們過去在歷來透過行政的規則裡面已經揭露了八項應該揭露的原因就比如說像各位都知道像有個肥貓條款就這家公司如果他明明是"},{"start":20525.623,"end":20529.889,"text":"全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、"},{"start":20543.686,"end":20546.79,"text":"五條條文修正條例部分條文修正條例部分條文修正條例部分條"},{"start":20563.949,"end":20590.665,"text":"個人隱私還有就是所謂的那個市場競爭的考量我想這影響微乎其微但是我覺得這部分現有的機制已經很好了他是採用這種方式我們的立場是有關那個第五項的部分國民黨團所提那個能不能維持原來的條文就個別那兩個字可以不要不要做這樣因為我們現有機制應該可以來做運作那第二個是有關國民黨團跟民眾黨團所提的第六項的修正就是剛才各位委員在討論的"},{"start":20591.886,"end":20610.716,"text":"就是裡面有一個新的規定是強制規定上市公司有盈餘的時候應提撥一定比率來加薪當然金管會對提升國人薪資水準這樣的一個都是支持的但是我們對於以立法的方式強制就有一點點那個疑慮在這邊跟大家報告"},{"start":20611.596,"end":20639.772,"text":"就是通常一般公司的經營決策這個還有就是它的所謂的公司治理有它自己的一定的原則這個如果是用法律直接介入到公司的經營說你要怎麼做你的股利政策或是紅利政策或是他們應該怎麼來分配通常這跟比如說公司治理跟供應決策是有一點點不符那我們覺得尤其是我們現行的規定如果把它說有盈餘的時候就要強制的加薪但是"},{"start":20640.512,"end":20669.04,"text":"公司有時候可能沒辦法長時間保有這個盈餘所以公司在獲利的時候通常有時候他基於長遠的考量他會說那不是每年都是晴天所以他可能就不會說今年他會考慮到未來的景氣之類的所以這個都是涉及到商業判斷那我們通常比較不恰當用一個法律的規定說你今年賺錢就要加薪而且況且剛剛那個我們其實過去公司法剛剛有"},{"start":20670.08,"end":20671.501,"text":"中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 中小企業發展條例部分條"},{"start":20687.106,"end":20687.627,"text":"條之一 。但公司上有累積虧損可以彌補。」"},{"start":20708.609,"end":20734.452,"text":"這個會比較符合橫屏的這個概念而且其實還有一個其實這是會計上的問題我們帳上的盈餘常常是只是會計帳上的盈餘它並不代表是一個以實現就可以分配的數字比如說我們會計上有很多未實現的收益它會是在那個帳上是列為你的就是損益表上的收益這時候很有可能它感覺起來有賺明年可能又價格又波動了所以"},{"start":20735.172,"end":20760.984,"text":"這也是為什麼考量說獲利是不是跟一定要加薪這件事情是會有一點點政策就是他們經營上的考量那其實過去金管會也很在意這個加薪的問題對上市櫃公司我們做了很多鼓勵他們去加薪的這個機制而且我們透過強制揭露資訊讓他們同儕去比導致這種同儕的壓力其實過去的績效其實蠻好我跟各位報告一下"},{"start":20761.724,"end":20782.942,"text":"我們根據那個交易所的統計過去五年來我們上市櫃公司平均的加薪就是加薪的幅度超過了20%大概21%左右然後他們的酬勞就是年終獎金的增幅大概有63%所以因為上市櫃公司都是國內體質較優而且都是國內代表型企業總共這1800、900家的公司"},{"start":20785.724,"end":20810.239,"text":"這是相對它比較優質而且他們在整個照顧員工上面現在已經有一套的機制所以過去在加薪上面也都不是我們擔憂的點這我剛剛聽起來跟中小企業的條件比較不好需要政策來鼓勵這是有一點點不同所以過去他們都已經在反映他們的營收的時候也都在加薪上面去做而且金管會在這個力度推得越來越高"},{"start":20811.3,"end":20835.51,"text":"通過同儕說你的同業裡面大家都這個薪水你為什麼這麼低啊所以他們就有加薪所以我們也看到了過去上市櫃公司他們非主管的薪資的平均薪資過去幾年來增幅其實也蠻大就剛剛跟各位報告也有21.38那上櫃公司也有16.07所以這是遠高於我們一般公務員的加薪的這個幅度這是一個"},{"start":20837.791,"end":20843.016,"text":"三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":20853.044,"end":20859.228,"text":"三條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條"},{"start":20871.636,"end":20872.617,"text":"財政財政財政財政財政財政"},{"start":20888.43,"end":20906.041,"text":"是主席還有各位那基本上其實剛才那個彭主委已經有說明了這是上述會公司對於這個追求永續經營還有持續的獲利他其實是他自然本身他的一個企業社會責任也是為了要跟股東員工好共同來分享利潤"},{"start":20906.901,"end":20919.288,"text":"所以為了員工加薪其實是企業社會責任一個衡量的非常重要的指標目前我們也看到上市櫃公司他們薪資調整的情形我們曾經去統計過他112年的調薪狀況"},{"start":20924.351,"end":20947.578,"text":"他們都是依據營運績效、員工表現及員工年資事實為員工加薪以一百一十二年度為例,大概有半數以上的上市貴公司都有條薪而且有百分之三十以上的上市貴公司條薪比率大於百分之五"},{"start":20947.938,"end":20954.425,"text":"二十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":20970.06,"end":20992.222,"text":"所以我們是覺得這個部分其實基於上述跟公司他們其實公司治理的原則我們似乎應該就是以他們自己的獲利動機他們的營運績效還有他們瀏覽人才的策略來做一個自己的評斷那我們也看到就是說如果用這個黨團的提案"},{"start":20992.882,"end":21007.179,"text":"因為現在只有國民黨團提案是希望在租稅上面給你優惠那我們有去估計大概110年度到112年度這三年的話平均的這個調整的情況大概稅省會到100億元"},{"start":21009.02,"end":21025.646,"text":"如果只是單一年度,尤其是他們獲利特別好的那一年110年度的話,他的那個損失就高達178億元所以這個真的對我們財政的收入影響非常的大那也基於政府財政資源有限的考量"},{"start":21026.486,"end":21043.197,"text":"我們是希望說這個租稅優惠措施似乎沒有提供的必要性那我在這邊也要特別強調一下就是其實我們為了扶植我們國內這些上市櫃公司這些產業我們已經提供了很多的租稅優惠措施尤其在現在像產業創新條例裡面"},{"start":21046.019,"end":21058.745,"text":"那些租稅優惠措施很多中小企業他可能不符條件他沒有辦法適用但是我們這些上市櫃公司幾乎都可以享有我們現在已經提供的不管是研發的頭底還有就是智慧機械的頭底、5G的頭底還有就是像我們還有一個產創十條之二就是給這些關鍵高科技的產業具有影響國際產業鏈的這個公司"},{"start":21072.432,"end":21075.473,"text":"三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條"},{"start":21090.037,"end":21104.308,"text":"所以我們也建議我們能夠參考一下就是上市貴公司他自己本身的營運情況他們會做適度的調薪那我們是不是要在這邊另外給他一些額外的優惠以上報告"},{"start":21105.081,"end":21132.171,"text":"謝謝財政部說明接下來請黃珊珊委員發言胡思耀委員請準備謝謝委員我想我們大家都聽完了那臺灣民眾黨的版本並不是要給他租稅的優惠我再強調一次所以我們這邊的條文的我們也知道公司法其實有規定了有規定他引於提撥的部分透過章程是可以給到員工的酬勞但是一樣的他在章程裡面有訂"},{"start":21132.891,"end":21137.494,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":21154.465,"end":21175.521,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險"},{"start":21180.852,"end":21207.589,"text":"員工當酬勞的過程裡面一般公司是要靠公司章程但是我們希望上市會公司有一定的法源依據而且我們在這個條文裡面我們講得很清楚我們並沒有堅持一定要多少比例我們還是希望主管機關跟會同勞動部來訂定你們可以延伤我們只是希望給你們一個法源將來有這樣的一個權利我相信儘管會在管上市會公司也有相關的機制來給他們有這個法源依據將來的"},{"start":21209.21,"end":21235.865,"text":"相關還是可能需要非常多的細節這個我們會希望就授權主管機關跟勞動部去討論但是我們並不是要去突破現在的法規而是希望說在公司尤其是一般公司他用章程來限制的時候其實對員工也不見得那麼有幫助我們希望說上市會公司多負擔一點點責任也希望他多賺點錢他的盈餘分配一定的比例下來也不會影響到他整個公司或他繳稅的狀況以上"},{"start":21237.747,"end":21238.75,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":21245.916,"end":21271.376,"text":"好謝謝經過一輪的討論我就歸納幾個重點就是今天在討論的政交法十四條的修正裡頭那當然提案委員都是利益良善希望可以給出一些政策工具的參考然後來鼓勵企業加薪而且是這裡針對的是上市櫃的大型公司但是利益良善到底是給對了強心針還是有可能下錯藥這個是我們要嚴肅去面對的問題"},{"start":21274.358,"end":21301.721,"text":"所以幾點呢?第一個我當然同意放在政交法就是怪怪的你如果要放原本的公司法兩百三十五條之一或者是你有其他的勞工福利相關的勞動法規或者是如剛剛彭主委講的你可以選擇在其他的稅法當中去規範放在政交法這樣一個管理政交、證券交易所有的這個程序什麼的這種作用法真的是很怪的事情第二件事情"},{"start":21302.722,"end":21320.827,"text":"我們能不能夠用立法強制的方式去介入公司治理這是很重要的事情我相信去問問上市櫃公司的企業老闆他們會不會同意即便我們可能出發點是想要幫助照顧他們的員工可是你這樣子過度的用強制立法而且是強制的方式"},{"start":21322.708,"end":21327.913,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":21337.529,"end":21352.323,"text":"所以這個我們覺得要非常的小心第三點,如果要鼓勵上市櫃公司對於員工來加薪,我們有沒有其他的政策工具其實是有的嘛,我們目前的做法就是用這個公司治理相關的評鑑"},{"start":21353.984,"end":21380.956,"text":"來處理它,也是我們最常用的一個政策工具,或者是現在有很多的indicator對不對那這也都是現在最常用也都是業界都習慣也熟悉也接受的方式這是重點所以這一點我也認為如果用強制的立法去去去做的話這個東西是大有問題的好那如果說沒有立法的話沒有改這一條的話"},{"start":21382.196,"end":21406.803,"text":"那這些上市櫃公司就都不會為自己的員工加薪嗎?不是嗎?剛剛已經有數字我們在研讀的時候也發現到30%以上上市櫃公司都是員工加薪5%以上這個是沒有這個立法他們也會做因為對於他們追求他們的很多的指標、公司治理的評鑑他們都會去優化自己的內部的公司治理這是本來他們就會去做的事情第五件事情就是"},{"start":21408.072,"end":21417.717,"text":"三條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文"},{"start":21436.451,"end":21452.202,"text":"增加了大概一百七十億以上的稅損這個是我們可以承受的嗎?或者是說是值得的嗎?或者是說是正確的嗎?好,最後一點就跟剛剛的中小企業這是本質上有很大的不同,兩個不同第一個"},{"start":21453.41,"end":21479.912,"text":"就是規範的這個公司的規模不同中小企業跟大型的上市櫃公司我們要給予它的剛剛講我們對於現在的上市櫃的大型公司這幾年來的稅務的減免優惠已經非常非常多了剛剛那個財政部說好像大概六七百億一年嘛所以再給它一個那我覺得中小企業可能覺得哇有相對的剝奪感第二個對象"},{"start":21482.185,"end":21495.829,"text":"之二就是員工我們鼓勵對中小企業的員工來加薪我們剛剛那條還非常細緻的針對新聘的24歲以下的員工或者是壯士代65歲以上的員工然後是基層員工我們幫助這些基層員工絕對是我們非常樂意去支持的"},{"start":21501.571,"end":21518.589,"text":"但是現在像是瑞公司的這些員工多數都是相對在收入上在政經地位比較高的這些高階的或是中高階以上的這些正確從業人員所以用真的我不想講這幾個字但是很有可能會有這種"},{"start":21519.15,"end":21534.083,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案、全民健康保險法條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分"},{"start":21544.972,"end":21563.389,"text":"那對我個人我作為立法委員專業立法委員在看這個條文我真的是最重要是覺得這麼我六七點的原因裡面我覺得兩件事情最重要就是立法強制介入公司治理我們真的要神聖進行第二個不同行業"},{"start":21564.946,"end":21571.154,"text":"的相對比較與剝奪感。我覺得這也是我們要橫屏去思考的。好,這是我的報告跟分析。"},{"start":21583.73,"end":21606.523,"text":"不是我悶啦是你大小眼啦是你大小眼我倒也不認為公司裡面的上市或者是上櫃啊他看起來就是比較偉大比較會賺錢這個是一個假象反而我認為在我們台灣啊中小企業裡面這樣佔了98%以上那整個就業人數啊900多萬人啊"},{"start":21612.898,"end":21617.203,"text":"全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":21632.697,"end":21645.829,"text":"那你如果說我們今天去把它修訂了說你上市上櫃你賺的錢你一定要提撥一定的比例來把他們讓我們的員工來讓他們加薪如果講到這邊我還稍微可以接受但是你的做法是說那我用抵稅的一個方式"},{"start":21653.573,"end":21679.658,"text":"這個我就不能接受為什麼不能接受?除非你中小企業都加進來那我覺得就又比較公平一點啦不然怎麼會變成說我超過百分之九十八以上的一個中小企業就變成我沒有享受到啦這也好奇怪喔那我剛那個舉例啊我覺得我舉例的太棒啦不是我不懂是你婦婚期完全就不懂你看到的是說哇!那中小企業那家老大賣的那外國啦中小企業最大賣"},{"start":21681.6,"end":21696.555,"text":"中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案。我反而會認為就是說立法院當然我們現在是立法院是無所不能啦愛怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣啦但是也不要忘記了公司的治理裡面你太過於去介入的話"},{"start":21698.036,"end":21721.136,"text":"是否恰當?」當然公權你可以去介入,立法院可以這樣去規定可是你規定到說你提供一個一定的一個我訂多少,你去加薪後我政府再來讓你當年度,就是超過的部分扣抵當年度營業所得的提高到百分之一百五十我如果中小企業,我會覺得我沒錢"},{"start":21724.909,"end":21727.23,"text":"我會有這種想法,我會覺得我有相對剝奪的感覺。這個其實每一個政黨都可以來做一個討論啊,不是說你看了以後,我會說你也很好,你跟我說什麼,看起來只針對我的言論。這個太沒有禮貌了,這個太不學無術了,這個不好。"},{"start":21746.298,"end":21753.86,"text":"這不是你總召好像我就比你矮一截我不吃這一套那重點就是說這個真的是要講道理我剛特別去提到我開宗明義就去講說我們公司法裡面就明文規定說在章程裡面這樣去講這個才是公司的一個治理那什麼就是全部要求有公權力機關你就要把我們來訂定公權力機關就是到最後你財政部靠靠了之後他今天要入価加薪的我來給你抵扣當年度的所得稅"},{"start":21776.604,"end":21781.866,"text":"到150這個對中小企業反而百分之九十八這個我覺得這個就不公平了看我看來這個就不公平了以上這是我個人一個小小的一個看法角度不同我角度不同你也可以反駁我我又不是說我不好我不是說你厭討我不好謝謝莊銘選法我們請柯建銘委員發言請林思銘委員準備"},{"start":21805.516,"end":21816.242,"text":"二十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文"},{"start":21835.373,"end":21859.118,"text":"來,我希望能夠持命而論,大家和我講,今天氣氛是不錯今天不是在討論違憲亂真的,所以不必動氣這個是民生法案,而且方總召也不在,這個場控更清楚那我講啦,立法總是要立法體力啦"},{"start":21861.041,"end":21890.541,"text":"立法體育就是什麼法應該放在什麼地方,綜合法應該放在哪裡,稅法應該放在哪裡,勞動草案應該放在有一定的立法體育,各位都是立法委員。既然公司法所規範的就應該在公司法,公司法所規範你把它弄到證監法,雖然你有你的主張,我們待會,對於主張如果再留待等下再討論,也就是說一定要在正常軌道才能夠來談正常的事情。"},{"start":21892.443,"end":21906.577,"text":"我希望說各位應該有基本的認識有所謂基本法、有所謂作用法、有所謂組織法所以我們都一定要把這個先弄清楚所以我不介意"},{"start":21907.438,"end":21923.674,"text":"公司法的東西來放在增加法。增加法是歸於什麼大家都很清楚了。證券交易、遊戲規則等等,它上面底下執法一大堆。那是為了保障善良投資人。"},{"start":21925.055,"end":21950.229,"text":"好,這個第一點,第二點就是說有關於這個剛才賀文綺委員所談的我並不是要故意要武力你,我從來不相信你啦你今天所談的言論好像台灣打仗已經是快要倒了台灣的產業環境很差,台灣現在是在世界競爭力上面是一個非常落後我們今天股市才看到2300"},{"start":21953.111,"end":21969.005,"text":"二、三、五、六、六、台積電再多賺五千元,很多廠牌相對指數都不錯。這是一個整個台灣的軟實力、硬實力所加成起來的。造成這樣的一個競爭利益。"},{"start":21972.688,"end":21981.83,"text":"所以我希望就是說大家要弄清楚今天最大的問題是在什麼地方?今天問題就是說"},{"start":21997.154,"end":22025.303,"text":"這副總統講過新加坡現在薪水多少新加坡薪水多少沒有錯紐約薪水美國薪水多少沒有錯那你看他房價物價指數新加坡你要買這個車子先花五百萬先花五百萬說有地方停車子再來來的車子至少一千萬所以就每個地方的生活水平素質物價稅制都不一樣所以單純比一個薪水的話"},{"start":22026.656,"end":22038.816,"text":"是有失公允美國的薪水是我們這邊看起來美國的薪水都好因為我小孩都在美國上班可是在新加坡上班都很清楚"},{"start":22039.625,"end":22066.28,"text":"但是相對三萬之一靠稅金票所以租房子也幾乎靠三萬之一了如果你會的話所以坦白講的話我們對於員工的薪資是每一家公司的勇氣發展上面他一定要故意的嘛所以所謂ESG上面包括他社會責任每一家公司都要有他的社會責任嘛他從勇氣到電照都相準嘛因為薪資一直"},{"start":22067.06,"end":22093.601,"text":"行政院很低,相對中小企業人家差人家跳槽了公司最大市場的只是員工嘛還有RD常常做的事情,常常看貨市場嘛這事都是要員工的,因為董事長沒有用所以我們現在談就是說回到正門經營上面好像看起來說你甲親甲親我來減稅減稅是什麼?他要交給國家的啊"},{"start":22094.571,"end":22101.818,"text":"若非您前面拿稅錢去撲推這少數的商事會公司這邏輯絕對錯誤了所以我只是希望說大家冷靜一下"},{"start":22104.676,"end":22120.929,"text":"就是說這個法,難道可以這樣一個例子,我照稅審,剛才,剛才檢察院副部長講說110年度的話1781,你看明年度將近幾年度,今年度它是110年到112吧,113的時候,那時候的稅審是怎麼樣,所以那個是"},{"start":22127.25,"end":22151.163,"text":"我們要了解這個尺寸以一律的法造成國家尺寸當然為憲法所不符這立法院審寫一個法照教授國家尺寸況且你這個是逆邏輯逆邏輯很奇怪是補貼這個財團嘛所以這個我想大家要冷靜一下要慎重考慮萬萬不可"},{"start":22154.594,"end":22176.863,"text":"接下來請林思明委員發言、傅昆吉總召請準備好,謝謝院長、各位委員我想針對說這一條可不可以定在我們的政交法我想我發表我個人的想法其實我們今天在談的就是上市上櫃公司上市上櫃公司它就是我們政交法所規範的一個對象"},{"start":22178.283,"end":22197.032,"text":"所以我們在這條裡面就規定說上市上位公司他的員工的加薪他的盈餘由應提撥一定的上市上位公司應提撥一定的盈餘給來作為員工的一個加薪的規定體力上我們認為是沒有問題的這個是應該OK的"},{"start":22199.793,"end":22214.874,"text":"至於說這個這樣的一個規定為什麼我們會提這樣的一個規定我想我們大概一直在講立法利益良善嘛大家也認為說這個公司的這個盈餘由大家員工來分享這大家都贊同的"},{"start":22215.655,"end":22235.366,"text":"所以我們提這個這一條的一個立法的一個目的就是希望該除了剛才瑞雄講的就是說你的公司章程有相關規定以外但是公司該我們的主委或者部長那個市長也講到很多上市商會公司他都會去把他的盈餘分配給他的員工"},{"start":22236.306,"end":22263.681,"text":"但是是一定必然嗎?不一定,不是一定必然所以我們立法給他一個法源那個基礎說如果你這個上市上位公司有盈餘的話提撥一定的比例給我們這些員工我想這是一個非常好的一個規定這不是強制而且我們沒有把比例多少把它規定下去這個還是授權我們的這個相關主管機關他去定一定的比例"},{"start":22264.742,"end":22286.258,"text":"我沒有把它縮短,你要訂多少由主管計劃,他自己去衡量嘛第二個我想說為什麼我們講說這個一定要這個如果說他提撥稅後盈餘啊為員工加薪比例超過1%的時候他可以超過部分扣抵當年盈利所得稅額可提高到150%我想這個就是一個誘因啊"},{"start":22290.721,"end":22313.714,"text":"對我們希望說這些上市商業工你有賺錢你給你的員工來分紅這個才有誘因啊讓你可以抵稅否則他幹嘛要這樣做所以我想我們這樣的一個訂定絕對是有他的一個立法的一個目的不是說我們就隨便亂訂啦我想我們請民進黨委員也要去瞭解利益良善啦不是你講的"},{"start":22315.455,"end":22343.075,"text":"為了什麼要讓國家稅收減少不會減少因為稅後盈餘他的比例多少由我們的授權主管機關來做以上謝謝謝謝林市民委員發言現在我們請傅坤祺總召發言那個院長我們在這裡做一個很沉重的請求我們從二月四號協商到現在"},{"start":22344.676,"end":22373.751,"text":"立法院是一個國會殿堂而且今天還有這麼多官員在這裡我們不要齁真的把這裡丟人現眼在國會沒有任何事情不能討論大家可以抒發自己的想法但是不要變成習慣陳志然一再在這裡草引協商做人身攻擊你可以講出你的想法都沒有關係點名人身攻擊如果再這樣的話以後協商我都不簽了我要再強調一次"},{"start":22375.919,"end":22401.694,"text":"這不是不給院長面子這是踐踏國會沒有有什麼事情不能討論各自出發看法大家都承載民意但如果每一次協商都是人身攻擊點名我們這沒有意義了這個核心訓練我現在特別強調齁今天所有的東西大家都來討論這個也是我們黨團討論過的不是我個人的提案"},{"start":22405.663,"end":22422.076,"text":"所以我要特別強調上市櫃公司是佔了我們國家多少百分之多重的一個比例的GDP而且上市櫃它能夠上市櫃它是要多少能贏於達到百分之六以上它才能夠上市它本身就是模範生而且對於人才的集結讓它的業績能夠持續的成長"},{"start":22433.16,"end":22457.697,"text":"其實它的周邊上市櫃公司有很多的中小企業這個都是一體的嘛大家是整個大的一個cycle在整個國家的生產鏈裡面嘛對不對這個因為他們就是龍頭所以他們在前面能夠往前帶動的力量更大所有國內的企業都可以雨露均沾"},{"start":22459.264,"end":22485.937,"text":"而且是不是要用怎麼樣的一個方式我們也是授權行政院 對不對來訂而且授權的內容都可以討論嘛 對不對那對於啊我們一定要強調兩個事情我們要理性來討論事情不是說這一刀分這有什麼圖利有什麼什麼講這些這個東西真的是差太遠了"},{"start":22487.858,"end":22499.363,"text":"我們國家有多少的租稅減免對這些企業集團我們從來沒有說那是什麼補貼財團什麼什麼不是這樣嘛你國家本身有這些制度去支持這些企業"},{"start":22509.438,"end":22527.609,"text":"這些企業都有在支持,租稅減免甚至補助等等都有,但是重點在哪裡?這些有到員工身上嗎?我們今天主要Focus的重點就是在員工身上所以我要特別強調"},{"start":22531.9,"end":22557.856,"text":"如果而且這個部分都可以授權這個行政院來訂定比方說比較也可以像剛剛中小企業一樣你說什麼樣的薪資以下對不對這都可以講啊啊你說那個經理人你說張忠謀你人夠多了音樂部分可以不要分擔那個都沒有關係對不對我們把這個事情提出來因為這裡是國會什麼意見都可以討論"},{"start":22559.448,"end":22583.517,"text":"大家一起來討論,把這個事情讓它明確化,讓我們的國家、澳門國家這些企業,上市櫃企業本來就是這樣的,所有企業的龍頭本來就在這裡。我們一起來推動,用各種不同的想法。那我們還是希望說因為上市櫃公司,它所擁有的社會企業責任是很重大的。"},{"start":22585.129,"end":22608.685,"text":"當它在進行的時候,很多的其他的企業要跟進,我們也都歡迎啦。若非上市公司,這中小企業也要求要這樣做,我們當然也可以支持啦,為什麼不能支持?對,但是我們總要先把一個穩定獲利的這個區塊,穩定獲利的區塊就是上市貴公司嘛。它沒有一定的體制根本不能上市嘛。"},{"start":22610.074,"end":22639.266,"text":"所以由這個部分成為我們國家員工薪資的火車頭來往前邁進我們這個部分來帶動這是我們的一個想法而且是國民黨內還有很多的委員要求的我們才寫了這個法那這個法內容細節都可以討論沒有關係最終還是授權行政院來訂定對不對那個時候我們很多細節要怎麼訂會更加的周全"},{"start":22640.476,"end":22664.806,"text":"我們都歡迎但這個事情是絕對大家來討論沒有問題的好不好柯總召發言莊瑞雄委員請準備兩位委員發言完畢之後洪委員發言然後我就要念一下草野協商的暫時的好不好請大家踴躍發言然後最重要是經營管會跟財政部要不要思考一下"},{"start":22666.075,"end":22679.843,"text":"有沒有可能在大家都可以接受的情況之下重新擬一點你們可以接受的範疇等下我也喊一個休息有一個黃金五分鐘你們現在可以思考一下如果這樣能達成共識是最完美的好,請柯建銘總召"},{"start":22682.674,"end":22699.422,"text":"我先針對剛才副委員總召所談的事情我認為就是說大家有不同意見的爭辯就是在人身攻擊這個要分清楚曹偉強是談不同價值理念"},{"start":22700.562,"end":22725.321,"text":"假如說不同價值理念就是說人身供給的話那根本不是協商所以要把它分清楚正式涉及到人身供給的部分當然我們已經會有警惕的我真的當然講比較清楚所以不要把這種協商當作丟人現眼我自己今天讓全國人民都在看"},{"start":22726.901,"end":22754.467,"text":"都很理性啊也沒有嘲笑也沒有亂亂讓大家見馬如章啊都是非常理性而且都是在談法理的問題今天最大問題就是說我承認分區委員所所參的他是政壇他代表他們黨團我也尊重但是今天不是我們黨團提出來就不可以討論的這是一個跟外討論的場所"},{"start":22757.085,"end":22778.081,"text":"那要給企業一些社會責任本來就是有了每個企業一直在強調的所謂企業社會責任CSR那各企業在這方面是非常在拼的公司自己都很重要非常多專家在看待這個事情"},{"start":22779.949,"end":22793.614,"text":"要給企業一些誘因、incentive。」本來就在廠商交易,剛才廠商部長講很多,現在出售誘犯很多。那你說這個是火車頭嗎?我不認為這是火車頭。這個火車是開不動的,沒有辦法開動的。因為邏輯上這大問題就是說,剛才分區委員所談的,"},{"start":22803.339,"end":22823.319,"text":"通過以後授權給行政院去處理所以問題你授權給他他也沒有辦法處理假如你有辦法處理沒有違反公平正義原則他怎麼處理呢你這樣一修的時候就是上市費公司才能該繳的稅"},{"start":22824.961,"end":22842.399,"text":"沒有了,拿去給零工加薪,然後政府來抵稅,啊這個有稅損,那誰來出啊?這全民的虧損啊,這個邏輯上不通,不然啊,其實你要談什麼都是可以談,另外法治面也不通啊。"},{"start":22843.941,"end":22854.47,"text":"那有關勞動法規則都好像很容易去談嘛這是我比較認為這一點今天我們在這個地方必須要所計較大家在一個水平上談這個事情"},{"start":22855.939,"end":22875.864,"text":"不然的話要談不同的事情這個整個這個軸線都不一樣的話坦白講在講到最後可能會批評喔這也不好所以我不知道韓英文所謂黃金五分鐘他們要怎麼打造出黃金我不知道"},{"start":22878.825,"end":22880.647,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條"},{"start":22896.312,"end":22902.158,"text":"中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":22917.074,"end":22933.306,"text":"剛福根市委員提到了說這個是鼓勵的啊這沒有強制這怎麼會是這個怎麼會沒有強制你現在條文是講說擴大鼓勵上市櫃公司為員工加薪上市櫃公司你年度應與應提撥一定比例欸不然你把它改成是得的話我看誰給你提撥你把它改成得的話你不寫那個應的話"},{"start":22938.353,"end":22956.239,"text":"所以說啊,所以我就是挑戰你啊所以嘛,你怎麼會覺得說好像是...所以我就跟你講嘛,你寫這個因我如果從這個文字來評價這個叫不懂的寫法嘛這沒有涉及到人身攻擊嘛這本來就要接受挑戰的嘛我的重點在什麼地方呢?也像譬如說我們一般在講說上市上櫃公司是,形象很多大部分都良好上市上櫃公司景氣不好虧損的也一大堆啦"},{"start":22969.173,"end":22971.294,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":22988.74,"end":22994.563,"text":"全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文"},{"start":23015.748,"end":23030.087,"text":"那我就沒意見了那這個就很理性的討論那就變成說就像台灣民眾黨講的台灣民眾黨講說我就不幫你定那個比例那如果站在民進黨的立場我們也肯認說這個條文的意義要幹什麼但是"},{"start":23031.109,"end":23046.592,"text":"這個手段到底對還是不對?可不可以強制到強到這樣的一個地步?像比如說我政府部門我就可以來強制說你應該把我提撥到多少?"},{"start":23048.479,"end":23077.119,"text":"我是認為這個手段是強了一點因為公司也會賺錢可是他真的也會虧錢那如果講說因為你叫做上市上位公司我不覺得上市上位公司比較厲害台積電稍微賺大一點那當然厲害上市上位公司了解的一堆了解的也一堆所以兩相權衡我是覺得要去引導上市上位公司來用這樣的一個誘因來幫員工加薪我肯認"},{"start":23078.16,"end":23092.907,"text":"但是可是中國國民黨黨團如果副總召講說我沒有要強制那沒有要強制是不是我們從這個因的部分是大家來做一個考慮以上提出大家來做參考謝謝周瑞雄委員發言我們現在請侯孟凱文發言"},{"start":23094.788,"end":23124.148,"text":"我第一次發言我想這個證券交易法我們也協商了快一個半小時其實歸納一下我還是強調對如同我們剛剛講的任何法條協商的時候我們都不需要人身攻擊的部分大家各黨團都是三長各黨團也都是人民選出來也因此互相尊重當然這可能原木求魚可是我們還是要強調如果說法案的討論都要變成是人身攻擊的話那院長真的很抱歉我覺得你看"},{"start":23124.708,"end":23148.466,"text":"到我們在講話的時候大家要插話那我真的不知道是說大家互相尊重在哪邊再來啊我想最重要今天我們提出來證券交易法的核心重點在於是什麼就希望是上市櫃公司有盈餘的上市櫃公司能夠幫員工來做加薪所以並沒有存在說所有上市櫃公司"},{"start":23149.026,"end":23163.36,"text":"剛有代表也講是說如果說是上市櫃公司今年是沒有虧損的咧他就不存在在今天討論的範圍裡面因為我們的條文寫得非常清楚有年度盈餘的上市櫃公司所以是有賺錢的剛剛我們的"},{"start":23166.732,"end":23187.284,"text":"剛剛我們的財政部次長有提到一個數據他說去年有50%的有盈餘的公司有調薪有30%的公司有比較大幅的調薪你們看到的是50%有調薪有盈餘的公司有調薪我看到的是那為什麼另外50%的公司有盈餘但他沒有調薪呢?"},{"start":23188.149,"end":23197.928,"text":"這就代表什麼?這就代表是說現在確實存在的狀況就是說有一些上市櫃公司他即便他真的有獲利但他沒有把他的獲利給他的員工來分享"},{"start":23198.717,"end":23222.439,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例"},{"start":23223.2,"end":23237.766,"text":"那這樣子代表什麼概念?就希望是說真的體質良好並且真的上市上櫃公司他的盈餘已經有到一定程度的時候適時的能夠拿出部分的盈餘來給他的員工加薪這是正向的循環"},{"start":23238.766,"end":23253.042,"text":"我們還是再次強調為什麼要有一些公司帶頭加薪就是因為要讓整個社會能夠呈現正向循環嘛最明顯的例子是什麼為什麼我們政府部門要優先跳出來幫軍公教人員加薪"},{"start":23253.743,"end":23276.268,"text":"三趴。」我們的卓院長也講了嘛明年要加薪啊因為政府的經濟表現亮眼啊所以要幫軍公教加薪啊一樣道理啊軍公教加薪的概念是什麼就是希望當作是火車頭能夠帶動其他的中小企業能夠帶動其他的上市櫃公司看到政府已經帶頭加薪了拜託大家一起來加薪形成正向的循環"},{"start":23277.652,"end":23306.103,"text":"軍公教政府我們可以用政府行政命令來直接講說我要加薪三趴那上市貴公司我們沒有辦法也因此我們才想出一個辦法是說如果能夠授權我們行政機關一定的比例以上年度盈餘的公司能夠思考讓他的盈餘來幫他的員工加薪這也是形成一個正向的循環那誘因是什麼?政策工具是什麼?就是給你們就是說我的賦稅有部分可以來做減免嘛"},{"start":23307.783,"end":23327.783,"text":"剛剛也有代表提到是說像國家稅損一百億左右你們看到是國家稅損我看到反而就是那我們可以用這方式一百億的金額可以給我們所有兩千三百五十萬人只要他是在上市櫃公司的話他就有辦法有加薪一百億是不是這樣的概念"},{"start":23328.809,"end":23347.341,"text":"其實今天的狀況是國家上市櫃公司跟員工所以今天到底這個部分沒有要幫企業減免企業該付的成本還是要付只是他到底是用付稅的方式還是他把他的獲利給員工的方式這是我們今天坐下來討論的嘛"},{"start":23348.562,"end":23371.946,"text":"所以我們今天很負責任提出來這樣的一個法條這樣的方案就是希望能夠有更彈性的政策工具能夠讓我們的行政部門來去協助我們的企業只要你是正向表現良好的你可以適時的提撥一些部分的費用給員工加薪我想這樣的一個核心概念跟價值沒有人會反對吧我們要幫我們的台灣2350萬人的員工來加薪嘛"},{"start":23375.575,"end":23398.14,"text":"那最後我也講如果說你真的覺得說有些大公司大企業他撥部分的部分減免相關的所得稅就算是圖利的話那我請教我們有很多的條例是有這樣的政策工具啊那怎麼算所以千萬不要在我們這樣子大家坐下來討論的時候動不動就扣人家帽子啊你這就是圖利"},{"start":23400.212,"end":23428.192,"text":"說實在的話要圖就是圖希望能夠讓所有基層的員工能夠多一點點薪水就那麼簡單所以我拜託院長我現在講完了我想各黨團代表也都講完了齁那我剛看到二樓那個衛福部長他們已經等了兩三個小時了所以我只是想要請教到底金管會到底財政部有沒有這個空間多少比例你們有這個空間150%如果你們認為說太多要不要調整"},{"start":23429.173,"end":23457.344,"text":"還是說你們就認為說鐵板一塊沒有辦法調那如果說沒有辦法調的話那這樣子就沒有共識啦我們在討論再三個小時也沒有共識啦但如果說你們認為有空間是不是能夠針對條文的部分來做個說明我覺得這樣我們才能夠進行下去以上謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言那我感覺財政部喔次長好像有話要講等一下是吳思耀委員要發言沒關係但是你要不要聽財政部我覺得他好像有話要...好請"},{"start":23461.052,"end":23473.456,"text":"我覺得這個討論都很有意義這就是協商的目的就是讓彼此可以交換意見然後可以抽絲剝繭然後看到這個提案的本質到底是可行還是至愛難行我舉一個很簡單的例子"},{"start":23477.137,"end":23499.275,"text":"我舉一個很簡單的例子大家聽看看我們今天的在處理上市櫃公司如果有盈餘就應當提撥一定的比例給員工加薪說得很好聽說得很好聽就是說我只是建議他然後應去做啊怎麼比例怎麼樣他們去定大家想看看你把這個上市櫃公司想像成國家政府"},{"start":23500.359,"end":23512.623,"text":"今天這個規範就等同於說政府你只要該年度稅入大於稅出你就一定因撥補一定金額的稅入來給全民發現金"},{"start":23514.986,"end":23532.385,"text":"是類似這樣的概念是類似這樣的概念但是國家政府的預算他有很多的必要去做的事情譬如說他要還債譬如說他要增加投資藉由增加投資跟建設來帶動更多的國家發展"},{"start":23533.546,"end":23546.458,"text":"這事很清楚就如同回到公司的治理任何一個上市櫃公司他有盈餘但是他盈餘不是都放在老闆的口袋裡面而是他需要去"},{"start":23549.728,"end":23574.636,"text":"彌補虧損他必須要去增加很多的投資他更需要去保留盈餘來作為一些準備金有法規基的人都知道所以說我舉例來講這樣子的做法就形同我剛剛的比喻嘛普發現金人民聽得好開心上市櫃公司員工家聽得很開心可是你強制要求你就一定要這樣做"},{"start":23576.596,"end":23592.924,"text":"這個東西我覺得是過當的強制的手段去限縮了公司治理的空間如同立法不能過當的去把手伸到預算政府的預算然後強制要求預算要怎樣怎樣因為行政權是預算權可以編列我用這樣的例子大家可以"},{"start":23593.484,"end":23597.347,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":23617.083,"end":23622.848,"text":"三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":23636.38,"end":23642.808,"text":"中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":23652.441,"end":23680.697,"text":"他們有盈餘他們有他們的考量因為一個是營運的考量一個也許他要增資、擴大資本也許他要還債也許他要做一些組織結構的調整所以他必須保留他的營運去做一些事情那當然是不是要作為加薪這個當然也是他考量的因素之一但是在租稅優惠上面據我們所了解從來沒有一個企業來跟我們要過這方面的租稅優惠"},{"start":23681.377,"end":23708.445,"text":"所以他其實不需要這個租稅優惠他自然就會去做他該做的事情所以我們真的不建議租稅優惠的措施在這邊額外另外提供啦所以我是建議如果可以的話是不是還是不要把租稅優惠的措施寫在法條裡面。謝謝。財政部謝謝您的補充發言柯建銘總召發言完莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員、傅坤熙總召好,請柯建銘總召請發言"},{"start":23711.192,"end":23728.035,"text":"我剛才還是很仔細聽文孟凱,口袋是不錯的,講得很順,但邏輯完全錯誤,又一轉下去,真的很奇怪,今天邏輯錯誤,你還一直講下一頁,我是看到底你是在講什麼東西,重點這個是核心價值。"},{"start":23729.694,"end":23745.144,"text":"難道這個不是圖利,什麼叫圖利呢?我們就講這句話就好了。把應該交給政府的稅金,然後不要繳,拿去給員工加薪。剛才部長講了一句話,沒有一個公司來做這樣的要求,不是,沒有人這樣說啦。"},{"start":23747.274,"end":23773.636,"text":"誰敢講這開熱口我不要繳稅金稅金我去做給員工請這個可以嗎所以這個核心你一直講的核心價值核心價值就是這個這個你是逆轉的價值的所以這一點先談清楚這一點不談清楚的話要給公司任何決策incentive太多了政府都常常條例很多把公司剛才也談到公司他的治理"},{"start":23774.457,"end":23797.894,"text":"他保險意義要多少?未來景氣他要保險意義多少?但是保險意義現在還有課稅還有課稅公司他未來景氣不好的時候他更要投資這每一家公司的parts有時是不一樣的這很清楚公司對員工的薪水本來剛才統計出來就是說上次的公司"},{"start":23799.055,"end":23818.836,"text":"百分之五十以上都一直往加薪的路上去走因為物價指數調整的話你不一定給他加薪要員工違法所以很多公司他有不同的手段嘛我剛才講說他有stock option選擇錢、股票選擇錢也有員工互動配股什麼都有這些都是每一家公司的諸類優惠但是我要告訴各位"},{"start":23820.222,"end":23847.868,"text":"加薪、薪水高低不是憑衡量我要不要在這公司唯一的指標。情緒差不多,可是這家公司的文化很好,讓我有Promote的機會,讓我有學習機會,讓我有往上升的機會,這是企業文化。人家會看你我到哪一家公司企業文化比較好,薪水多少是差異不多的時候,那考量因素很多,包括工作環境,"},{"start":23849.605,"end":23857.351,"text":"全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":23863.587,"end":23878.493,"text":"所以很多包括員工福利、公司旅遊等等很多在綜合指標上來看待薪水不是唯一的指標而且我們今天講的核心問題還是這樣你不需要拿到薪水"},{"start":23880.134,"end":23894.083,"text":"三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案"},{"start":23910.575,"end":23920.424,"text":"這不是人身攻擊,這是一個法理上的政變,請副總召予以見諒,不然人身攻擊了。我剛講的太含蓄了啦,我現在要把它挑明啦,就是說"},{"start":23936.438,"end":23960.709,"text":"任何經營企業人都很清楚公司有賺有賠而且按照公司法的規定其實是很清楚的你像比如說你連續前面我到今年我賺錢以現在條文的設計如果通過的話就變成說你要提撥一定的一個盈餘你是贏喔提撥一定的一個比率作為員工的加薪現在我們條文設計是這樣"},{"start":23962.23,"end":23967.513,"text":"可是憲刑法的規定就不是這樣嘛除非你把公司法一併去修改嘛但那不可能修改嘛為什麼你企業今年賺錢你要把過去累積的盈餘你要先去做彌補啊"},{"start":23976.294,"end":24004.092,"text":"不是這樣子嗎?虧損的部分你要先去彌補啊!你們所得稅法你們也是這樣規定啊!你們在瞌睡的依據也是如此啊!所以我的意思就是說你這一條一定下去天下大亂要引導上市上櫃公司透過一定的盈餘來幫員工加薪我知道這個條文設計是要達到這個目的我是肯認你們這樣的一個條文的一個初衷但問題是不能這樣定我的意思是不能這樣定"},{"start":24005.012,"end":24023.947,"text":"不能這樣定的原因就是說你這個是我今年賺錢我就必須要去提撥可是這是不對的我不能今年賺錢我就提撥一定的比例說員工我來加薪怎麼可以這樣我今年賺錢了我的公司賺錢了我全部都提供員工你們全部都是我的債權人你們一定是反對的我要先彌補虧損公司我要先彌補這個虧損才可以我們現在公司法的設定本來市民不是就是這樣子規定嗎"},{"start":24033.471,"end":24035.566,"text":"所以我的意思如果你去改不是因"},{"start":24036.772,"end":24039.034,"text":"條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":24063.835,"end":24074.506,"text":"我反而沒有,我的問題點在這個地方。」所以公司法我再強調一次我次長你再回應我一下公司沒有撥補沒有彌補虧損的話可以拿出來像條文這樣設計來調高員工的薪水嗎?"},{"start":24083.018,"end":24107.695,"text":"規定是要先彌補虧損的。」是啊,連分紅也不行啊。所以我是再次的提醒啦。謝謝,我們現在接下來請傅坤吉總召發言之後,我要處理朝野協商的結論。真的謝謝啦,我想,我想,來,沒有關係。你是最好的學生,坐好。我想今天啦,大家,"},{"start":24110.362,"end":24136.247,"text":"這樣的氛圍我覺得很高興因為協商很多事情越講越清楚什麼意見都可以表達我們就事論事我們現在聽起來大家有提出了很多問題現在大概我們可以慢慢收納起來上市櫃公司我們今天拋出了這個球是不是以後中小企業一體適用"},{"start":24138.154,"end":24154.921,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":24162.762,"end":24166.909,"text":"三十貴公司基本上百分之九十以上年度都有盈餘所以我們從這個區塊先來討論"},{"start":24169.772,"end":24194.887,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修"},{"start":24198.147,"end":24222.568,"text":"這是一個工具給行政院行政院可以就它自來來期的部分把它修成可以來進行另外就是說剛剛我們執政黨有提到這到底是德還是因我剛剛已經講了嘛我們現在可以先進行用德嘛未來"},{"start":24224.156,"end":24234.462,"text":"該什麼時候要用因的時候我們再來再來調整因為可以嘛對不對老柯看到我就已經習慣性的他大概都不太會點頭他看到我都是搖頭"},{"start":24236.258,"end":24240.06,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":24259.389,"end":24279.359,"text":"你再問一下好不好因為他一直Q到我不回答不吐不快行政部門議見表達完再發言因為下面的人都在等黃金五分鐘我們特別跟金管會還有財政部各位列席官員特別報告一下我們現在就是說我們民進黨國民黨"},{"start":24281.32,"end":24309.838,"text":"都已經有非常善意的經過討論之後如果我們四條第六款這個應改為德那請問一下財政部跟金管會接受度如何請表達意見下面其他委員發言德雖然是可以選擇但是這樣就會更不公平就變成說某些賺錢的公司他就可以不提"},{"start":24310.902,"end":24333.392,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修"},{"start":24338.274,"end":24363.284,"text":"明年他少賺一點錢或者說他不想他有其他的用途他就不提撥這會有超重利益的問題也會超重租稅的套利這件事情我覺得德制我們是覺得可能更有利益的理事長你的思路非常細膩來得與不得中千萬難不可能的事這樣講很好會套利會超重我上次為公司"},{"start":24367.062,"end":24385.239,"text":"原本是在這個地方這不是給政府工具這不是政府的工具這個工具是要上次公司你來套利的工具這怎麼是政府的工具你弄一個他應該繳二歲免繳"},{"start":24389.443,"end":24398.086,"text":"我明不一致?相當一致。相當一致。我再說一遍。我才說一遍啦。不可以。一個遍啦。"},{"start":24404.264,"end":24419.39,"text":"這件事沒有中小企業加薪我們加薪拿出錢出來才可以抵稅你這個要繳稅金不繳然後去研工然後來抵稅你是要付出的"},{"start":24419.87,"end":24434.363,"text":"變成國家變相補助納財團嗎?這不是同意什麼是同意這個法這個原則性核心問題沒有辦法解決以前你叫他選舉什麼都選舉不出來了而且我跟你們講一個"},{"start":24435.504,"end":24449.749,"text":"你應該要加薪以後賺錢一定要加薪我們不論後面都有增長性黨後它虧錢的時候怎麼辦沒有辦法合適薪水加上去"},{"start":24450.589,"end":24473.603,"text":"所以公司老闆他們已經各種手段把你調來調去讓你坐不住讓你跑所以我們要講的是原則性的問題你一搞要條例要的條例除以外要條例這個絕對罷免不會通的啦副總長請你見諒這個一百面不通的啦"},{"start":24476.625,"end":24502.743,"text":"你這個原點就是說你搞改革的稅金不高、電風車的稅準稅準給員工、讓國家的稅準這個是解決不通的這違反憲法七十條啦謝謝柯董事長我也沒有異議啊那異議沒有關係異議你要怎麼做是你的事情那是公司自己的事情謝謝柯董事長不是政策法上面有規範嗎謝謝柯董事長"},{"start":24504.684,"end":24509.766,"text":"我們已經討論了非常非常的詳細的各種角度的分析利弊之間、行政、立法系統等等那我嘗試性的唸一個朝野協商的結論請各位黨團幹部仔細聆聽"},{"start":24526.834,"end":24545.352,"text":"我們協商結論第十四條我們就予以保留送院會處理沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":24546.601,"end":24563.268,"text":"院會處理的時候,我們各黨團推派一人,一臺灣民眾黨、民黨團、國民黨團、輪、你等下發言不要急,每人發言時間三分鐘,發言完畢後我們進行處理。各位對我們這個草案協商我暫時訂的這個草稿有沒有意見,請。有,有意見。好,柯總長。院長。"},{"start":24564.744,"end":24566.746,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":24580.538,"end":24607.535,"text":"你只要請教一個前金融會主委叫鄭明忠他現在在富邦當讀統他是最了解的你去請教他我們今天金融會主委在這裡這個是正交法可以規範這個東西嗎?而且整個邏輯不通請大家冷靜一下你想想看會不會問題是否費用太問他們敢不敢引鬥死這個事情這個大家都想一想嘛所以稍微冷靜一下好不好不用馬上說什麼表決啦"},{"start":24608.135,"end":24617.898,"text":"全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條"},{"start":24775.189,"end":24793.064,"text":"各位黨團幹部來對不起因為衛福部部長已經等了很久了對不起我們我們對其他部會很不好意思我們請各位黨團幹部大家再忍耐一下那立法院黨團協商關於我們證券交易第十四條條文修正草案經過黨團已經非常充分的討論"},{"start":24794.42,"end":24798.164,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":24819.025,"end":24823.473,"text":"我們請衛福部來一下我們休息休息十分鐘"},{"start":25301.424,"end":25303.586,"text":"各位黨團幹部謝謝我們今天現在我們衛福部的邱部長到了熱情歡迎歡迎邱部長我們社會保險司的劉司長熱情歡迎法規會的陳參事"},{"start":25334.001,"end":25338.845,"text":"中央健康保險署施書長、國家發展委員會人力發展處的阮專門委員、行政院主計總處公務預算處的廖專門委員、基金預算處的黃專門委員。"},{"start":25356.693,"end":25383.358,"text":"全民健康保險法修正草案、要協商全民健保法的第六十二條修正草案共五條。」我們非常感謝我們王玉敏召委也到了現場。我們蘇清泉委也到了現場。陳金威委也到現場。陳昭志委也到了現場。大家都非常的熱情。黃正勳委,對不起對不起。而且黃正勳委是下午兩點就到了。你看五點我特別報告一下。"},{"start":25388.752,"end":25403.362,"text":"對!對!對!對!大家兩點人都很關心而且以並案審查完均有三條委員王玉敏等19人、委員蘇清泉28人及公民黨團分別凝聚全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案"},{"start":25404.298,"end":25423.544,"text":"二、禁服二讀的有兩案。謝一芬委員21人、楊千玉委員26人分別凝聚。全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案。」現在我們主要大家關切的重點在於是否需法律明定醫療服務總點數每點費用的下限問題"},{"start":25426.005,"end":25450.488,"text":"我們先請召委我們先請召委發言好不好好請好謝謝院長還有各位委員還有部長大家好那我想這個未還委員會審理有關於全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案這個主要是我想立法院我們是民意的殿堂那這個一屆其實這個問題真的反應非常久了"},{"start":25450.708,"end":25452.809,"text":"全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":25471.058,"end":25481.348,"text":"來接見這八大醫事團體。」現行的醫界的困境我想在座有幾位也都是醫師包括柯總召也有醫師的背景我想應該都非常的了解第一個我要講的就是我們長期的健康投資不足這個是讓醫界現在非常困擾的事情"},{"start":25490.396,"end":25511.686,"text":"那也讓我們現在全民健保其實已經出現了非常多的困難大家都知道我們的健保很好用很方便但是呢我們如果跟其他國家比較起來我們現在整體因為投資不足所以導致我們在這一個包含癌症的這個死亡率我們的下降幅度比起南韓我們的這個部分"},{"start":25513.326,"end":25535.335,"text":"從2011年到2019年我們的下降率只有8.2%韓國的降幅達到20.4%就表示人家的投資跟醫學的進步其實是比我們更快的我們的心臟病標準化死亡率台灣下降9%韓國下降16.3%我們的腦血管疾病標準化死亡率台灣下降14.9%韓國下降40.1%"},{"start":25540.657,"end":25559.557,"text":"十四條條文修正草案、糖尿病標準化死亡率台灣下降17.2%韓國下降49.8%我們說全民健保是台灣的驕傲我們也一直認為是台灣的驕傲但是其他國家在進步的同時我們的投資其實並沒有進步如果你再看到這一個"},{"start":25560.538,"end":25577.32,"text":"跟世界其他國家比較起來的話在這個世界衛生組織根據全民健康覆蓋指標台灣的世界排名並不是第一名我們是第35到37位在亞洲國家我們還低於日本"},{"start":25577.76,"end":25585.523,"text":"十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":25597.927,"end":25622.458,"text":"所以這個問題我們長期的投資不足導致我們在一些醫療的水準上面被日本跟韓國超越我覺得我們應該要看到這樣的現象這個也是醫界一直點出來就是希望我們應該要走勢的而不只是這樣子我們最近看到我們篩報急診病床前陣子衛福部的次長才跟全國各大醫院的這些院長緊急召開會議"},{"start":25624.839,"end":25650.396,"text":"為什麼?就是我們護理人員不足我們的關病床的現象其實是嚴重的然後導致現在新冠又上來之後所以很多病人他其實是沒有病床然後大排長龍連台大也大排長龍都排到這個大廳裡面去了所以這樣子的一個惡化的現象應該要解決而現在包括國民黨委員、多位委員所提出來的健保點子"},{"start":25650.836,"end":25659.725,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":25674.2,"end":25699.597,"text":"醫師背景的總統他在總統府還設立了健康台灣委員會那我覺得就應該要對台灣的全民健保我們的醫療投資要比過去做得更好才對所以這一次國民黨多位委員所提出來的這一個希望調高健保點值1.1元就是希望改善我們現在醫界長期就是我們因為給付不足"},{"start":25700.277,"end":25728.578,"text":"導致醫院要去做美食街、要去做停車場然後靠業外收入來補足我們這個健保給付不足的現象這個真的是有點荒謬也應該要改變喔我這邊有一個最新的函是臺北市醫師公會跟新北醫師公會他們最近7月1號新的函他們的函文告訴大家什麼最近新冠疫情又起來了然後呢他說他們現在醫療院所營運困難苦不堪言"},{"start":25729.238,"end":25757.587,"text":"因為他的換算成他現在的給付呢113年第一季我們的點值才0.81攤扣前甚至低於0.8所以讓他們覺得營運困難苦不堪言所以分別新聞給我們立法院他要求什麼他說希望大院立即啟動113年的點值撥補方案要去正視新冠肺炎病毒感染對醫療耗耗用的長遠影響"},{"start":25758.987,"end":25776.42,"text":"應該要挹注相當的費用進去總額的基期來雷滾才符合實際的醫療現況。」要跟院長跟各位報告的就是這個是醫界現在的現況真的是苦不堪言所以立法院我們作為民意代表機關就應該要呼應"},{"start":25777.481,"end":25785.452,"text":"然後要去體察這些民意他們真正的需求所以我們才提出這樣的一個法案也希望今天在朝野協商大家可以有共識我們來解決這個醫界他們現在非常痛苦的一個問題以上謝謝"},{"start":25792.636,"end":25808.821,"text":"謝謝王宇明召集人的說明跟所有黨團報告共同提案人有三位王宇明委員、陳昭志委員跟蘇清泉委員但民進黨的黃召集人沒有到等一下請民進黨的王振旭委員請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":25811.602,"end":25826.141,"text":"我知道啊不要急啊那等一下共同提案人那剛才王宇民委員所發言過的部分如果有重疊就請大家避開了叫我們來縮減時間重疊部分就不要再講了請共同提案人陳昭之委員發言蘇清德請準備"},{"start":25829.982,"end":25838.568,"text":"共同的部分不提但是我把數字提供給大家比如說如果我們按照所謂的過去的NHK部長我也諮詢過我們是6.1嘛那OECD國家是9"},{"start":25844.252,"end":25858.222,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修"},{"start":25873.226,"end":25874.387,"text":"有他們應該有的專業收入,所以他們被迫以藥養醫"},{"start":25891.781,"end":25893.042,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條"},{"start":25904.164,"end":25924.937,"text":"然後回到3.5目前大概是3.5個GDP照顧百分之百的民眾這件事等於Miracle叫奇蹟但如果這個奇蹟是包含我們因為我們保的非常好、完整熊小毛病到大感冒發燒、咳嗽流血到急重、寒症、難症都包含了所以這個叫做血汗"},{"start":25925.757,"end":25953.875,"text":"所以意見就是現在這樣子出來在我們真正能夠進入這個協商之中我想有幾個問題一定要由相關的部會所長來做一個處理在其實台大醫院的急診的病院床遇到這門口那個是台大教授傳給我的我就直接就請台大院後來他們來副院長跟急診部副主任來跟我做說明他們說明當然是跟疫情有關但是那個床已經遇到"},{"start":25954.375,"end":25981.863,"text":"大門不是在急診處急診處的一滿床是常態但是一到正廳的時候大門走進去跟鋼琴那邊都排在一起就跟活動區排在一起一來這個病房這個設施也是不對的隱私權感染每個人都在那邊咳嗽這個就是說還是讓它發生了但是我聽說其他的醫學中心也是這樣可是這兩天經過所謂的立委關注跟次長的這個介入結果今天說得乾乾淨淨"},{"start":25983.283,"end":26004.502,"text":"所以我覺得應該是有方法,衛福部這類是有方法可以處理的那我再繼續談,等一下有機會二輪發言為什麼現在有百分之四十,衛福部也要檢討,百分之四十的空床不管它是不是來自護理人員的不足現在全國有百分之四十空,可是你們手邊也有1.2萬床的病床同意了已經等著繼續開"},{"start":26009.758,"end":26035.96,"text":"所以這個東西你要同步去處理這件事情,否則我們未來一點也不過兩年,就是我們終來就算你給了到最後你的財務,你自己沒有辦法來處理。還有分級醫療部長,之前薛部長非常的皮、非常的頑固,他不承認這個分級醫療已經不見了。那我背的最清楚的數字就是健保實施前是醫學中心12家,區域醫院48家,然後"},{"start":26039.342,"end":26048.587,"text":"地區醫院六百多家現在是醫學中心二十六家地區醫院八十四家那個剩三百家這是你們要的醫療嗎?這是你們要的分級醫療嗎?到底你要怎麼去做這件事情是部長跟還有署長你在這個時間點接受"},{"start":26057.492,"end":26066.215,"text":"全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文"},{"start":26087.481,"end":26099.456,"text":"大病問題一大堆,為什麼賴總統要拿出一百億癌藥基金,等下我也要追問這件事明明講好是一百億,現在是東折西扣,開始把新藥預算又撥過來又撥過去怎麼變成是署長在籌錢,就應該賴總統院長要出來籌錢"},{"start":26106.184,"end":26110.106,"text":"十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":26126.573,"end":26143.583,"text":"三十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法"},{"start":26144.603,"end":26167.556,"text":"但是現在又讓這個小病症大家都往這個大醫院跑所以今天為什麼讓大家不得不提出這個點子的問題就是部長你要重新再來好好想你怎麼去管理這個包括你的醫院評鑑我會要求以後醫院評鑑不是只增加醫學中心你們每一次醫院評鑑之後要提出一個衝擊報告對台灣的病人來說哪比好"},{"start":26168.436,"end":26190.99,"text":"多花什麼樣代價會怎麼樣你們希望怎麼做不要只是報告說幾家通過幾家通過然後完全不守醫療這個醫療網的這個規範兩百萬一家一中心現在台北區氾濫什麼樣當然點數一直往下降這是你們要解決問題因為這個都醫院的這個都是你同意的所以我執行薛部長的時候他竟然跟我說以前就沒遵守"},{"start":26192.13,"end":26206.8,"text":"那表示以後都不用繼續遵守嗎?又把它加碼嗎?部長你在這個時間很難為所以我想我是不是第一輪先把這些問題點我想等一下要請他們來處理謝謝陳教授委員接下來蘇慶委員請發言然後王振旭委員請準備謝謝主席"},{"start":26210.959,"end":26220.184,"text":"上個禮拜我們八大議事團體來立法院拜會我們院長跟江副院長那我記得院長講一句話聽到八個團體講完觸目驚心"},{"start":26224.622,"end":26250.668,"text":"那我這裡,因為我做過私協理事長、區協理事長、全聯會理事長我又在我們的邱部長,在改造醫院協會,全聯會理事長我們的檢報,我們的檢報全民滿意度89.7台灣最大的穩定力量就是全民健保89.7喔,我們沒有一個公共的收入這麼高的"},{"start":26251.892,"end":26272.093,"text":"然後醫界的滿意度三十趴、牙醫三十趴、護理不到三十趴是怎樣?就用我們的踐踏、霸凌、著令、壓縮所有醫護人員然後來造就這一個美麗的假象"},{"start":26273.633,"end":26285.236,"text":"三個月他們到WHA去那邊宣揚,就是好,台灣好都好,結果必然要知道我們的醫藥投資是在OECD的末段班。而健保是要做什麼?健保做什麼?傻傻的,什麼都砍,砍到最低,藥也砍到最低。"},{"start":26297.422,"end":26318.978,"text":"點滴都出問題,這個根本沒有技術門檻的點滴也缺貨。」笑死人了,真的是。那為什麼?永豐的人我問他,他說你是怎麼回事?他說,他就給我一期收了錢,我就連付薪水、維持這點滴輸益的場就有困難了。培本的生意怎麼做?"},{"start":26323.991,"end":26329.636,"text":"一罐500CC的點滴,你合給他25點,點喔!點喔!結果現在去外面買,一罐要47塊,新加坡,1000CC的給他37點,結果新加坡要買我們107元台幣,現金187塊,3000CC的,他要買我們248塊"},{"start":26349.687,"end":26357.911,"text":"全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":26378.922,"end":26405.593,"text":"所以都是韓國、日本、中國大陸都合完了他們再來台灣健保局也是傻傻的我不是說傻傻不好但是你這樣一直傻傻到進不來所以為什麼新要進來?因為五百多天就是這個原因沒有人要來有的就撤掉那你鼓勵學民要鼓勵我們國產要這個我們也認同那再來就是醫療投資不夠"},{"start":26406.934,"end":26411.536,"text":"三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條"},{"start":26435.834,"end":26452.062,"text":"我們的醫療如果繼續這樣幹我跟你保證平均壽命還會往下掉一直掉搞不好掉到77歲就跟中國大陸差不多啦不要笑人家中國大陸多爛北京、上海、廈門的平均壽命現在已經是81點多了"},{"start":26453.683,"end":26466.452,"text":"所以我們是在下降,所以不能再蒙著頭,一直堆、堆、一直堆堆、堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆"},{"start":26479.454,"end":26494.595,"text":"所以這個是很過分的事情那一屆每一年的那一塊就是四、五百億三百億、四百億、五百億在我們黨企十幾年來它就是幾千億所以一屆現在受不了最後一個"},{"start":26495.495,"end":26522.735,"text":"我們以前的醫生像院長、像柯建銘委員、像王振旭這跟我差不多的我們以前當醫師、我們的主任邱太陽一樣啦跟我們說理想、說抱負我們就去那間家裡就在拼每天幾天一班、幾天一班我都幾天一班也在醫院我曾經就三年的心臟外科總醫師温酷三年一千多天也沒有應援"},{"start":26525.154,"end":26536.4,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文"},{"start":26542.765,"end":26562.15,"text":"整個把新冠之前以前有特別預算到去年結束全部都灌到健保總額裡面結果健保總額大幅點子大幅摔掉下去好啦那去年那一點錢出來補不到0.9現在跟院長報告上個禮拜確診十萬人"},{"start":26566.34,"end":26576.189,"text":"第十萬條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條"},{"start":26585.638,"end":26607.972,"text":"跟百姓的承諾,希望比較有擔當的。總統你是醫生,比較有氣魄的。你講一點一句,你來做到最後。要怎麼做?當然也沒辦法。所以,我們今天講這個,如果今天要繼續這樣蒙著頭繼續爛下去,所有data就會再往下掉。陳昭之委你擔心的,會再更爛。"},{"start":26609.056,"end":26615.464,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":26625.359,"end":26648.879,"text":"最初的上限制改成目標制這部分作為一些報告。從這個修法裏面是希望能夠保障點子是從王明明召委這邊是0.95、蘇信委員這邊是1元。如果不足的時候未來希望用公務預算的方式來編列這個內容。我們也知道剛剛大家所講的困境、委屈還有這些大家"},{"start":26649.56,"end":26653.922,"text":"十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條"},{"start":26668.109,"end":26671.392,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":26688.886,"end":26715.497,"text":"民眾健康的需求。自從520以後其實我們也看到相關主管機關包括邱部長還有這個大家都努力的希望能夠擴大健保財務的這些來源包括有各種的方式我想這些內容大家也都已經有很多很多的理解跟了解那如果把這些健保資源透過好的方式納進來以後其實就有機會去讓這個點子"},{"start":26718.218,"end":26740.423,"text":"維持在0.9元以上甚至超越一元的目標來邁進,就是在不動現有的六十二條的母法之下,就可以有機會達到這樣的目標。」那這個目標我想等一下我們也可以請衛副部長這邊讓大家多了解這個部分。那如果我們現在用這個修法的方式來達到這個目標,"},{"start":26743.203,"end":26745.965,"text":"十四條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例"},{"start":26772.483,"end":26781.168,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案"},{"start":26781.573,"end":26804.473,"text":"如果真的依照這個修法通過以後那在預算的這個部分的處理我們怎麼去面對這種高額預算撥補的這個準備功夫這個也是我們所擔心的所以如果我們能夠透過這個擴大健保財源來做這樣的這個因應的話那是另外一個大家可以討論的地方那其實為什麼"},{"start":26805.954,"end":26823.252,"text":"為什麼會有這麼大的這個財政上的醫療資源上面的因應的不足最終還是人口老化跟醫療科技進步之下造成的影響過去這二十年來一開始好像可以逐步的來因應可是因為這兩年尤其是有COVID以後"},{"start":26824.033,"end":26850.645,"text":"不管是人口老化或是醫療科技進步的這種衝擊很顯然臺灣在健保制度一定要做調整只是調整了如何去讓這個調整可以符合未來的需求又不至於造成另外的衝擊這個是請大家共同來努力的以上謝謝王振旭委員的發言那等一下吳世堯委員發言之前我們還有一個醫生委員也到了我知道我知道沒關係陳經委員發言然後柯總要準備"},{"start":26852.132,"end":26876.202,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝官員還有謝謝重複的就不說了是謝謝三長對剛有提到因為有人會說這個健保點值如果保障的話會排擠到別人但是我必須說現在的醫療已經到刻不容緩的程度了我們有三個很急的事情一個叫做病床荒一個叫護理師荒一個叫生理食鹽水荒"},{"start":26879.463,"end":26893.671,"text":"但是這三個問題所有的源頭都來自於健保點子我現在給大家看這個圖這是已經是醫學中心的急診亂象這個急診亂象呢他是好不容易靠美國"},{"start":26894.891,"end":26921.559,"text":"十分之一的人力美國四分之一的薪水但是那天創下臨死亡率的記錄但當天所有這個亞東急診室的醫護人員說他們已經燃燒殆盡他們不確定自己五年後還會不會在這個職場因此他們拍了這張照片留念所以目前急診就算是醫學中心都呈現這樣子的"},{"start":26922.699,"end":26932.847,"text":"十四條條文修正草案的程度。」剛陳肇智委員有說當然有衛福部的官員、次長關切過之後現在這些東西都已經說起來了不過為什麼人會塞在急診呢?好,我們看這個"},{"start":26937.625,"end":26961.172,"text":"區醫院、地區醫院現在的關床率是多少?兩成到三成醫學中心的關床率大概7%對,大概到1%因為護理人員不夠所以病床在那邊但是沒有辦法照顧病人沒有辦法照顧病人沒有護理師的病床就只是一張床那我們看現在護理師他的需求有多大的缺口"},{"start":26961.892,"end":26965.878,"text":"我們現在只有18萬的護理師但是呢衛福部告訴我們說2030年全台灣需要24到26萬的護理師但是呢我們看逐年上漲"},{"start":26976.641,"end":26990.961,"text":"每年我們只增加兩千名護理師而今年護理的離職率創下歷年來新高12%所以現在考上護理系的學生只有八成來臨"},{"start":26992.643,"end":27007.696,"text":"以前大家都會來念因為覺得是一個鐵飯碗現在只有八成來就讀而且離職的人越來越多所以依照現在每年增加2000人的速度是完全趕不上衛福部希望我們2030年達到的24到26萬護理師再來剛講到生理鹹水為什麼"},{"start":27015.282,"end":27017.883,"text":"他跟健保相關很久以前當我們都還是訓練的時候那個時候有三十幾家廠商在做生理鹹水我們在開藥開藥醫主的時候有很多選擇到現在只有一家而且他獨佔的是八成"},{"start":27031.767,"end":27052.464,"text":"因為健保點值的關係沒有人願意做這個當台灣發生了重大的戰爭公安問題全民會需要的這個生理鹹水而我們現在必須幾億幾億一路買到年底去跟國外進口當戰爭的時候這個進口也沒有辦法做了好"},{"start":27054.265,"end":27079.013,"text":"這個不只是生理鹹水其實還有其他的書藝、其他的醫材、其他的藥品他可能都在我們面臨戰爭的時候但只有一兩家他佔了市佔的七八成所以健保如果沒有馬上幫我們現在的困境止血恐怕其實上週剛您有講到第六波的新冠疫情在起"},{"start":27080.113,"end":27097.271,"text":"現在死亡率上週是創新高,比起上週增加了六成。依照我們這樣子的速度,沒有病床,會有許多的人滯留在急診,他可能新冠完全都沒有辦法住院的狀況之下,就又離開急診了。而這個"},{"start":27102.509,"end":27113.946,"text":"我跟王振旭委員還有江啟臣副院長以及還有林一軍委員去了WHA所以這個王振旭委員也很常在委員會提到為什麼現在我們會講說好像"},{"start":27115.556,"end":27139.794,"text":"投資進去點值,我們就必須要牌擠到其他的預算,或是大家保費一定要上漲。可是,全世界各國的Data都顯示,公務機關對於全民健保的投入,就是遠遠不及其他的OECD國家。我們在洛杉磯管理學院,全球競爭率是第八名,"},{"start":27140.875,"end":27152.28,"text":"結果呢我們的健保支出也就是公務對於健保的支出是第41名這代表什麼這代表是我們國家的競爭力是極度的壓榨醫護血汗這個是三總院長臺大院長講的是長期壓榨醫護的血汗而達成的嘛所以健保點值1.1億人代表其實"},{"start":27165.865,"end":27177.536,"text":"除了國人的健康以外,還代表了醫護人員的工作權、醫事人員的尊嚴,到底有什麼工作一點議員是沒有辦法被大家承認的呢?"},{"start":27178.607,"end":27191.655,"text":"所以在這邊也很急迫的希望公部門對於健保的支出我們真的應該要大幅的上升大幅的上升不代表可以排擠到其他謝謝,謝謝行政院長"},{"start":27197.441,"end":27224.173,"text":"院長各位委員同仁我看到幾個都是異界同僚當然我沒有否認我是亞伊斯那一九九四年的時候整個金馬法修正我是在前場的人那時候我們難以忘記那三年三月二零一三的時候應該是二零一三開始總人的時候我都專去委員"},{"start":27226.147,"end":27232.334,"text":"整個大家都是異界人士我真的聆聽大家所傳的問題那我非常了解"},{"start":27233.137,"end":27260.197,"text":"但是解放難道是解放?要怎麼解放?我們直接討論OK剛才有施政委員還隨隨講過說有八大團體去看你其實他也來控告我然後很清楚那這些很多都是我老朋友很多都是老朋友包括做理事長等等各種都是老朋友"},{"start":27263.48,"end":27283.337,"text":"這幫團體也一起在整個國民健康健保上面一起努力過今天面對這個困境我們要講實話不是解釋到底是怎麼一回事情比如說韓國的部門其實他佔GDP是8.4那韓國百分之六幾是智慧的"},{"start":27285.029,"end":27304.95,"text":"因為OECD六個國家每一個國家制度上是不一樣但是我比較不能接受的就是俄羅斯蘇聯盟,它是我中間的協力它把健康法講得一文不值你常常說怎麼這麼大聲,你剛剛講一文不值嘛並非如此"},{"start":27307.284,"end":27313.105,"text":"當然一個很簡單的道理我只是舉簡單的道理剛才陳醫師有講到三大級的問題病床、護理師、生理師我再講這個點滴的事情就好了永豐雖然永豐是壟斷的"},{"start":27327.489,"end":27345.62,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修"},{"start":27347.287,"end":27367.444,"text":"用很低的價錢去消耗競爭政府給他二十五塊、二十八塊所以他壟斷了市場壟斷了市場以後他品質不好不得不我們再讓大家處理實際應該講出來我了解是這樣因為坦白講我們這個這個有疑似同意反映過我去查過"},{"start":27368.985,"end":27394.666,"text":"所以要趕快緊急進口所以很多的因果關係你不要把它當作政府就是要在台下收你不會收的你不是做人如此因為市場經濟知識上面有些人的策略是錯的因為永豐他是營養貸很多款他有點那個他大牢不能打不然你要怎麼做那政府當然就這個時候政府不出手可以嗎好不好所以這個要講清楚"},{"start":27396.556,"end":27396.836,"text":"所有現象"},{"start":27418.294,"end":27441.467,"text":"我想我在這個場域這麼久我也跟很多醫院的朋友跟我們打拼過我也和他一起在這個制度上討論過這條總和書當初就是牙科是我和石中去處理的所以我們了解整個制度上面我們現在已經到當然必須要檢討的時候這絕對不可否認"},{"start":27443.206,"end":27457.094,"text":"但是這個檢討的時候,你只是用說電保點資增加,增加一億塊錢,就用解決嗎?我們都要讓他想清楚。那陳昭志委員剛才有分級疫苗的問題啊,還有很多選民藥的問題,那選民藥是..."},{"start":27461.937,"end":27484.591,"text":"那些本來就是市場競爭的問題嘛,整個是原廠的藥,原廠的藥當然就是選民藥的問題,但是整個就是國際競爭市場所以我現在講的就是說,我比較不傾向說簡單的一個結論就是說,把健保講的英文不值就不好"},{"start":27486.307,"end":27488.028,"text":"應該有短中長期的看法。」"},{"start":27516.047,"end":27541.274,"text":"假如說我們現在看啦,現在健保多少錢?8755億嘛健保支出過去5億到1.0的話已經上兆了現在很快就上兆了,都一直增加嘛反正你要到1.0的話,你只要保惠不增加的話我講坦白的,照正的依數是有限的但是健保就破產了"},{"start":27542.194,"end":27568.812,"text":"所以我們今天要很理性來談短期、中期、長期應該是怎麼樣不可能說我修一個條文就全部解決了是這樣嗎?我想應該也不是這樣大家都很清楚但是各位為醫界、護理界講話我都能夠體會我也希望跟他們講話我也跟他們對話他們看完韓院長來以後也到我辦公室來我是很坦承的講你們都為醫界發聲我都能夠體會"},{"start":27572.534,"end":27599.197,"text":"但是你假如說韓院長說這個第一又先把表決料就可以解決嗎?我不認為所以並不是如此那很多人把選舉政治的講法發作越簡單的結論然後用越簡單的條件就要把它處理掉各位那健保保費呢?可以不可以增加?你要先想清楚"},{"start":27600.405,"end":27602.874,"text":"電子保險不增加的話電子保險增加這個問題更複雜問題"},{"start":27606.502,"end":27621.61,"text":"那健保還有健保會的整個可能是有一個很複雜的一個機制性是存在的將近健保已經今天已經30年了30年已經1994到現在1994到現在已經30年了那我們了解30年也要衍生一些問題要討論要檢討說那天我跟他們談話就是說就這個直播我有講得很坦白"},{"start":27635.377,"end":27660.003,"text":"因為簡單的就是說政治來處於是不可得的是不是說那邊有副理事也有說藥師講點滴的問題點滴的問題那也有企業院有一些東西都有包括一次工會做理事長那過去我們邱部長也當過理事長"},{"start":27660.683,"end":27682,"text":"他對你很了解嘛沒有一個人不想在這方面做努力的這是我們現在有一個共同的看法大家都不想落下嘛我想保證一些事包括我們署長坐在哪裡每一個人都是想在這方面做努力然後來解決一些一些現在的困境嘛"},{"start":27682.94,"end":27697.611,"text":"當然醫生到現在坦白講他們以前牙科是比較沒有差牙科還有指牙嘛還有矯正嘛現在醫生所有事實坦白講和過去不一樣那過去的醫生也蠻拚的蘇貞映醫師也當過尹從醫師也當過"},{"start":27707.118,"end":27728.069,"text":"環境面前的改變,現在的年輕醫生也不是說他也不是只有薪水的問題工作環境等等他也不想過多的診療時間以前我當醫生的時候我職業十七年啊我以前是沒有週休二日啊"},{"start":27729.625,"end":27733.407,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條"},{"start":27747.193,"end":27771.05,"text":"我是走過這個勞保時代,走過這個時代,醫生還是,我常常講說我是亞裔,但是我有雙手勞動來維持心臟調通,我等天在運動,我有得到職業病,做久了以後痔瘡,HIVD,然後頭背都有,整天要滑"},{"start":27771.71,"end":27797.851,"text":"所以每一個職業都有牠的困境有牠的不同的態度牠的驕傲也有牠的尊嚴但是我們對於整個國家健保制度到現在我不否認我們共同的努力我們共同的努力結果今天必須面對可能要深刻來檢討"},{"start":27799.933,"end":27803.739,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":27815.817,"end":27841.676,"text":"假如說用一個點子,我想是沉默上困難的至於政府的部分,我們知道有關36%的部分有在政府應該支撐的部分,應該可以有一些空間出來但是能不能滿足到各位所達到的理想當然不是那麼一時間的問題"},{"start":27845.335,"end":27862.443,"text":"謝謝柯總召發言接下來發言次序侯孟凱委員發言完畢之後沒關係那我們請邱部長還有施書長發言結束之後我們就請吳思耀委員發言因為我們聽一下行政部門意見我們再互動好吧請侯孟凱委員請好感謝院長我想"},{"start":27868.513,"end":27891.962,"text":"大家都注意到現在的醫療的環境跟狀況那我也特別注意到現在剛上任的這個邱太元部長也特別有提到就說衛福部要努力讓點值可以往上爬這個是邱太元部長這個四天前來一起講出來的那我們現在其實坐在這邊重點是什麼重點是"},{"start":27893.943,"end":27920.706,"text":"去年賴清德總統候選人的時候他就有演出來也有講到健保點值的問題所以其實今天大家坐下來應該是現在的行政機關現在行政部門告訴我們你們怎麼樣兌現賴清德總統當時在競選時候的選舉支票其實我覺得重點在這邊吧是誰提出來講說健保點值要一比一"},{"start":27921.766,"end":27933.197,"text":"全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":27939.431,"end":27955.87,"text":"在COVID-19的淚流感的申報量高於民國108年同期點數與補助應該1.1元來計算。」這是賴清德以民進黨黨主席身份在民進黨中常會的時候有說過的話之後"},{"start":27958.84,"end":27977.941,"text":"在擔任民進黨的總統候選人在一月九號的時候也講過他講說他要跟醫界一起召開優化醫療體系改革健保給付制度並且提出平均健保點值一點億元的目標讓醫界的辛苦不再被稀釋"},{"start":27979.286,"end":28002.766,"text":"所以我們現在重點其實在於是說大家坐下來各黨團委員或是說大家都有提相關的修法版本不管是國民黨黨團提出來是1點等於0.95元或者是有一些部分委員提出來1點等於1元那行政部門你們要讓我們知道說你們要怎麼樣兌現賴清德總統在今年1月9號所提出來的競選支票啊"},{"start":28004.261,"end":28020.538,"text":"而不是說選舉選完了之後雙手一攤講說沒有辦法或說如同之前的薛樂園部長他不是賴清德總統所指派的衛福部長所以他講說健保一點等於一元這個他做不到那時候他在衛福委員會講是說他做不到"},{"start":28021.936,"end":28048.695,"text":"那現在新任的邱太元部長以前也是我們的委員同仁那你也應該因為你是卓榮泰院長所指派的衛福部長也算是賴清德總統的衛福部長那你要告訴我們說你怎麼樣幫賴清德總統兌現這個競選支票他既然去年他既然今年1月9號有講出來代表他有想過裁員他有想過方法那你要怎麼樣幫他兌現這個選舉支票"},{"start":28051.482,"end":28075.147,"text":"而不是說雙手一攤如果說賴清德總統一月九號的講法原來是說要增加健保費率那請你也講出來原來賴清德總統的目標跟方向就是大家提高健保費他就可以達到一點點值等於一點億元如果這就是賴清德總統的解方那如果不是你總是要負責任的告訴我們怎麼樣兌現這個支票"},{"start":28077.945,"end":28103.336,"text":"我想今天我們都同意現在面臨到的是一個醫療很大的缺口和很大的一個挑戰也因此我們不是說只有提高點值一點等於0.95或是一點等於一元錢是有一句話講得好人是英雄錢是膽沒有錢沒有預算什麼都沒有辦法我們再怎麼講說要挺醫界、挺護理人員、挺醫院"},{"start":28104.702,"end":28121.922,"text":"十值的點值很重要但是除了十值點值以外我們也希望要求要召開跨部會的醫療改革會議因為這已經不是衛福部這可能是相關部會共同來討論這也是今年一月"},{"start":28122.563,"end":28138.16,"text":"九號的時候賴清德總統在競選場合講出來的承諾要優化醫療體系改革健保給付制度所以要跟醫界一起召開也因此我們今天剛剛有再提出一個附帶決議我也希望大家都能夠支持行政部門能夠支持就是針對"},{"start":28141.09,"end":28156.769,"text":"醫療水準提高服務職能改革健保給付制度以及提升醫療服務水平跟給予國人可長可久的醫療品質我們要求行政院應該要召開跨部會的醫療改革會議提出具體的方案跟相對應的期程"},{"start":28157.884,"end":28179.907,"text":"所以這應該是要配合一起所以我們講了我們也剛剛尊重民進黨的代表除了點值我們要補充加強以外我們也要求行政部門要召開跨部會的醫療改革我們不預設立場因為醫療是大家的所以我們大家一起努力但我要拜託的是行政部門應該要很認真的看待我們今天的提案"},{"start":28181.533,"end":28208.798,"text":"七點、零點九五或是議員做不做得到,我們一起來努力。」那還有後續的附帶決議。以上,謝謝。謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言。麻煩請邱部長還有司書長,請發言。結束之後請吳思堯委員,請。謝謝院長,謝謝各位黨團的代表、前輩們,還有各位在座的同仁。那我想聽了大家的發言真的非常感動。"},{"start":28210.191,"end":28235.881,"text":"因為我身為做了幾十年的醫界老兵跟蘇理事長一樣還有很多稍微比較年輕的王正熙委員跟我是差不多真的很感佩但首先我覺得我還是要跟大家一樣跟全國的醫療人員致以最大的敬意跟謝意大家無論在任何的條件之下包括在防疫的時候"},{"start":28236.781,"end":28259.48,"text":"因為我當理事長我知道需要哪裡做篩檢需要哪裡做第一線的防護所有的醫療同仁都衝進去從來沒有問我這次去有沒有多少錢多少代價這樣子我們台灣就是這樣的一個精神所以我必須要跟全國跟各位一樣的精神跟全國的醫療人員"},{"start":28261.221,"end":28278.923,"text":"百年來對台灣的貢獻再次以最大的謝意。」我今天是用衛務部部長的角度來感謝大家那我特別還感謝各位今天所有在座的以及關心我們怎麼樣讓健保永續怎麼樣來改善醫療環境所做的任何的努力"},{"start":28280.01,"end":28298.728,"text":"這都是非常為了人民的健康真的表達向各位表達最大的敬意跟謝意那我必須柯總召雖然不在但是我必須要感謝他在過去我當立委八年來許許多多的醫療的困境包括"},{"start":28299.571,"end":28314.361,"text":"我們打點滴那個處置費的一百塊等等的各方面太多太多的事情真的柯總召就站在人民的健康跟醫療環境的改善當中柯總召我必須要因為"},{"start":28325.649,"end":28340.367,"text":"因為我畢竟都是帶著跟蘇理事長一樣我們都帶著五萬多個醫師還有很多很多的醫師團隊一起在努力我真的要感謝我們柯總召過去八年來真的對醫界的貢獻所以他今天會有很多很多的考量"},{"start":28341.388,"end":28360.6,"text":"我想都是有它的道理所以我想我也不重複所以我們當然是怎麼樣去改善這樣的一個醫療環境方法應該是相當的多元化途徑也很多那是不是我們就在立法來保障點子這個部分可能真的不是"},{"start":28361.34,"end":28387.267,"text":"唯一的辦法。」那是不是好辦法當然大家在研究但是我們擔心的當然是財務上比較無法臆測以及控管可能會失去控制的一個機制還有就是可能會比較讓政府沒辦法來規劃來照顧偏鄉的一些困難的一個科別另外至於是有沒有財政紀律法這個部分也是大家所擔心的"},{"start":28388.147,"end":28410.725,"text":"也許這個請等一下主席總署方面也可以做一點分析那剛剛我的那個每次在廁所碰到洪孟潭委員的時候他都叫我學長學長我比他真的很客氣他剛剛質問我的問題非常非常的犀利我們都是地下一樓的一樓派的"},{"start":28412.006,"end":28439.559,"text":"他問的問題我講犀利但是我必須要跟大家報告賴總統他以身為他是一個醫師他強烈的對人民的健康跟台灣要更健康有強烈的意願的一個企圖心的一個雄心大志結果雄心是每一個關心醫界的人的一個都是這樣子都是希望人民更健康所以在他當選的那一天晚上"},{"start":28440.615,"end":28453.787,"text":"就打電話請他的恩師陳志宏老師開始籌備召開健康台灣論壇所以在那幾個月當中也邀請了一千兩百多位"},{"start":28454.817,"end":28467.09,"text":"二十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":28475.959,"end":28488.991,"text":"甚至十大建研等。」我剛剛回應黃孟涵兄的那個委員的一個我們現在對其中裡面第一個策略就是要健保改革那健保改革我們第一個就是"},{"start":28490.779,"end":28492.64,"text":"政府以負擔健保會的計算內容,應該以健保規範為先。」"},{"start":28513.302,"end":28537.896,"text":"哪裏補助哪裏補助通通算到政府應該付出的36%這一個地方我們最近也盤點出來大概可以得到140億只要36條這個如果弄清楚另外當然健康台灣有希望36%到38%這個有可能需要修到法意見是希望40%這個都可以來討論但是我們列為第二階段"},{"start":28543.243,"end":28570.744,"text":"第二個就是部分總和項目改為公務預算之應。」這個最近我們說實在我們衛福部日以跟健保署日以繼夜在處理這件事情我們把所有的應該在應該是公務應該是公務預算來支出的不應該把它塞到健保了把它挪出來機場也有兩百億、幾億啦這些當然我們可以慢慢的來分幾年來處理"},{"start":28572.475,"end":28587.055,"text":"那另外額外的這個也是賴總統關心我們癌藥那有的藥就要說療效確定了以後那個等一下可能那個署長會報告但是他要用啊這個時候你不給他用"},{"start":28588.036,"end":28607.593,"text":"所以這個部分從去年開始就有一個暫時性支付由這樣衍生到第二年可能會六十億這個六十億都幾乎是公務預算第三年我們因為不需要那麼多所以不要說跳票第三年就會到達百億全部都是公務預算這個到怎麼樣來運作這個我們還在研議當中但是這個沒有問題絕對三年內會成立所以"},{"start":28615.479,"end":28636.368,"text":"這是現在已經有累積下來的那將來我們當然會考慮到個人補充保費的扣費上限我們希望富人來多承擔來照顧弱勢全民健保就是我們照顧弱勢這也是我們的使命所以我想如果比較有錢的比如說扣費上限從一千萬調到五千萬"},{"start":28639.924,"end":28660.43,"text":"補充保惠法更公平的部分。」這樣的情況之下最後一條才是打開保險率的一個上限6%,那個就是要調整人民的保惠,但是這個我們用最大的魄力不願意去做這件事情。兩年內我們希望不要去做這件事情,全部用我們的這樣剛剛處理過的,我相信"},{"start":28664.43,"end":28681.331,"text":"應該是至少會達到當時賴總統的至少要0.9那當然是往意義方面來努力,那我相信只要一直努力一直努力,然後當然也不是這樣子還有很多的措施要做,那個因為你必須要節省很多"},{"start":28682.642,"end":28708.249,"text":"一致不必要的支出包括推動分級醫療、加疫制度、低風險的應該讓基層醫療來。」這個其實我們昭日委員很一直關心的分級醫療怎麼落實。我很敬佩啦,因為我跟昭日委員的先生郭醫師是同時在臺大醫院住院醫師同時一直在值班值夜班,晚上從整個晚上沒睡覺跟"},{"start":28709.289,"end":28713.991,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":28733.004,"end":28754.207,"text":"就可以讓我們醫院得到醫療院所以及醫事人員的薪水都可以得到比較好的一個對待。那我在這邊也誠懇的,如果說立法上面是比較大家擔心的,也許是不是給我們衛福部一點的時間,我們好好把這些事情做好。"},{"start":28755.877,"end":28783.113,"text":"我想行政院左院長也非常的支持所以我們會一年的時間把它做好,如果真的比較有碰到困難的時候我們都同心的嘛,就是一直要為這位人民健康來服務那個時候我們是不是再來訂定相關的話,那把配套措施弄得更周全那我相信將來如果真的要立什麼法有配套措施的話,那一定會更好"},{"start":28783.672,"end":28787.777,"text":"更為我們台灣的健保勇氣留下一個歷史性的貢獻。」以上報告,謝謝。"},{"start":28802.746,"end":28820.956,"text":"院長總召還有各位委員各位先進那謝謝剛剛這個所有委員的指教那我就就這個本案那麼從分別從健保的法制面財務面跟執行面來做一些補充的說明"},{"start":28821.696,"end":28844.292,"text":"第一條從法字面而言在全民健康保險法第六十條明定那麼執行總額預算制度六十一條明定總額預算的協商制度以及依照分區門診跟住院的分配總額的分配那麼第六十二條則明定依照"},{"start":28846.28,"end":28868.771,"text":"前三十四總額制度計算點值據核算醫療費用。因此,如果我們今天在62條新增一個點值的保障,將會使得我們整個總額制度就不再是總額,因為它"},{"start":28869.511,"end":28884.664,"text":"後面預算需求無法預估。」所以這是第一個在法制面上從總額制度上來看跟保障點子這件事情是有相對的第二個是從財務面來看"},{"start":28886.665,"end":28908.569,"text":"十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正�"},{"start":28914.83,"end":28930.28,"text":"這個執行上會面臨到財務上的非常嚴峻的挑戰那我也必須在財務面上也跟各位委員報告總而制度在2003年實施的時候當年度是3774億到去年2023年那麼整個執行是8364億在這中間年平均成長率達4.27%"},{"start":28943.829,"end":28950.231,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":28969.696,"end":28983.303,"text":"二十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案"},{"start":28990.407,"end":29005.27,"text":"三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案"},{"start":29005.951,"end":29033.258,"text":"是以前瞻性的預算然後從後面執行完之後的點數去計算浮動的點值但是我們也有很多的措施是採取固定點值也就是保障1.1塊錢或者是用支付標準的加成來遂行政策或者是去調整一些需要被保障的醫療服務"},{"start":29034.518,"end":29057.66,"text":"舉例而言在我們的離島地區今年的所有的住院的點數通通是加成30%這個也就是考量到在偏鄉的投入跟在本島的差異那麼比如說我們在今年對兒科困難的集中症的部分我們也予以加成20%到30%共投入的3.8億"},{"start":29059.441,"end":29076.037,"text":"另外,為了疫情後看到了感染科的重要性,我們也投入了2.5億,設定了感染的計畫。再者,在一些醫院,我們現在一般的醫院,手術費的部分也是保障1.1億元。"},{"start":29077.498,"end":29094.972,"text":"三條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草"},{"start":29096.053,"end":29116.746,"text":"支付標準的差異化達到平衡醫療資源的目標。所以如果一旦齊頭市的保障點值1.1元的時候,那麼就怕我們在資源的分佈上會造成更大的失衡現象,所以這個我們也覺得需要"},{"start":29117.906,"end":29142.862,"text":"很多的解方來解決剛剛各位委員所指教的問題但是恐怕不容易只是以典詞保障這個事情就可以達到而且更造成在財務上的壓力之後我們就更難有餘裕來進行這些健保的改革以上的先簡單的說明再請各位委員指教"},{"start":29143.723,"end":29161.641,"text":"主席總署的代表要不要講兩句話請剛剛部長直接點名你我們請吳世耀委員發言謝謝主席主席總署在這邊補充說明因為這個案子基本上是貴大院的提案那不管是我們的預算法"},{"start":29162.362,"end":29188.741,"text":"財政收支劃分法 還有我們的財政紀律法 裡面都有提到當我們修正法律會大幅增加我們政府稅出增加財政負擔的時候他必須在法律裡面去彌補他的資金來源那本次大院所提出的這個提案並沒有這樣的處理那會有違反財政紀律法的問題那人請大院還是要依預算法去事先籌頭相對裁員必須彌補資金的來源以上"},{"start":29203.036,"end":29208.158,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":29221.858,"end":29248.579,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例"},{"start":29251.181,"end":29252.962,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例"},{"start":29273.984,"end":29293.884,"text":"這絕對是我也敬佩敬仰大家想要改良臺灣健保制度的用心包括我們邱太元、邱P。那司堯是區域立委我不是一介出生但是我今天在這裡發言講話我代表的是選民我盡可能的代表人民我代表的是民意"},{"start":29295.273,"end":29322.949,"text":"人民對於健保制度剛剛從裕民委員或是我們的這個親權委員都提到健保是臺灣的驕傲將近九成百分之八十九點七的人民對於健保制度感到滿意所以對健保的使用者就是人民來講人民在想什麼人民思考的是一定要一個永續的健保人民要的一定是一個"},{"start":29325.11,"end":29346.104,"text":"穩健改革的健保。」人民要的一定是在健保的制度下區域的醫療資源是平衡的人民要的是健康平權能夠在我們的醫療健保制度的支持下每個人都有這樣子的權利這是人民的思考"},{"start":29347.25,"end":29373.121,"text":"而不是如果就這個一點完全站在醫界的觀點他可能會有不同的介入當然我們都非常的認同也支持我們必須有效的去改良醫護的工作環境絕對要做我們絕對要大力的去增加國家對於健康跟醫療的投資一定要做賴清德總統也因此要成立委員會他自己的健康台灣的論壇一場又一場彰顯了"},{"start":29375.578,"end":29403.515,"text":"他就是要去增加對於臺灣醫療跟健康的投資我們也一定要去改革健保的制度這一定都要的人民的觀點是這些也是我作為一個立法委員的觀點但是今天回過頭來我們要改良醫護的工作環境我們要去增加國家對於醫療的支出投資我們要去改革健保制度用保障點值是唯一的solution嗎?"},{"start":29404.395,"end":29417.634,"text":"又甚至直接用立法委員、月組代庖、用立法修法的方式來將典值的保障入法,它是一個對的、是一個好的方法嗎?"},{"start":29418.908,"end":29436.91,"text":"我剛剛在上一場上一個議題的協商的時候我就講我們希望給強心針我們立法院委員的工作是修法立法給相關的政策強心針可是有可能是下錯藥有可能是開錯刀有可能是後座力過猛"},{"start":29438.001,"end":29457.361,"text":"一刀斃命所以我站在人民的觀點我們不能因為一個太過急切的而且單一優先以立法修法來點植入法來作為改革剛剛這麼多醫療問題的唯一解方而他帶出來的副作用可能是讓健保破產"},{"start":29458.422,"end":29480.461,"text":"他可能或者是讓人民必須買單來面臨可能的健保費的調漲。」我要用人民的觀點來說在政治面上非常謝謝大家都非常的關心賴清德總統在選舉期間的說法我們要再一次的還原賴總統他說的是他希望能夠讓點值絕對不要低於0.9"},{"start":29483.223,"end":29498.988,"text":"而更要努力地往議員去努力。」這是他的全文那今天邱P也好新任的衛福部長上任幾天他上任的天數就是賴清德總統上任的天數520到現在是第47天"},{"start":29500.894,"end":29521.768,"text":"所以要往這個目標去努力他需要有中長程的計劃而行政部門、衛福部包括賴清德總統自己跳下來健康台灣的論壇就是要中長程的去逐步用各種配套跟改革開源或節流用公務預算來處理原本健保的支出等等剛剛部長都報告這需要時間"},{"start":29524.87,"end":29552.433,"text":"而不是一個上任47天的衛福部長或是總統然後大家急切的說我來替你履行這個證件就是用修法立法的方式來做到點值1.1元我要講那不是他的全文他是說朝這個方向努力所以他需要一個時程逐步穩健的去達成而不會去造成過度用藥過猛的副作用第二個我今天坐在這裡我也非常的"},{"start":29553.345,"end":29569.239,"text":"有很強大的感受就是我們下一個議案不知道今天可不可以協商得到叫做電業法同樣在野黨提出來的電業法是要用立法用未來來取代現在的電價審議委員會用立法的方式來決定未來的電價是漲或是降"},{"start":29570.442,"end":29587.063,"text":"這就是用政治來干預專業我們今天在處理全民健保法六十二條某種程度也是要用立法的方式然後去破壞了過去長久以來2003年建立到現在的健保總額協商的制度他有"},{"start":29588.184,"end":29607.879,"text":"四大總額協商制度及各區總額協商制度及健保會就是要用專業來解決專業的醫療問題。我們不能用政治角度或立法委員立法的方式去介入漁業專業的事項。我一定要在這裡提出,我們沒有辦法。」"},{"start":29608.559,"end":29634.846,"text":"也不應該當然剛剛我們主席總書的同仁有講財政紀律法我們立法委員本來就不能去進行增加政府預算支支出的立法修法這件事情這一屆的立法委員好像都不care我們自己才修過的財政紀律法也更何況這是憲法七十條所要求的那好剛剛我講政治面我現在講到政策面回到政策真的要審慎思考"},{"start":29638.53,"end":29650.053,"text":"典值入法就是實質的去取消了現在的總額制度,這個不用我們已經講到爛了。健保這麼好,愛之是足以害之。」"},{"start":29651.468,"end":29677.341,"text":"如果因為這樣一個粗糙的典值入法的修法未來蒙受了健保崩潰的代價我剛說的人民的觀點他要永續的健保誰能負責這是行政權的權限不是立法院能夠來做就責任政治上如果讓健保制度受到強害總而制度形同實質的取消誰能負責"},{"start":29678.939,"end":29703.421,"text":"第二件事情財務沒有辦法精準的去控制沒有辦法去預估剛講的如果0.95元是705億如果1元是1155億但這恐怕都是低估啦所以說如果一個財源沒有辦法精準的去評估控制這個總額制度這個協商什麼的我覺得我們都不能簡化說我修法一句話解決"},{"start":29704.983,"end":29725.429,"text":"第三個就是人民很在乎的也是本席很在乎的如果因為這樣我們去挑戰逾越了城鄉的那個平衡因為現在的這個分區都在健保制度之下可以去確保不會讓強者越強弱者越弱對於所有的公民朋友來講他的健康平權不要因為這樣我們想解決這邊的問題結果造成了另外一邊城鄉差距失衡"},{"start":29730.851,"end":29753.933,"text":"的醫療資源失衡問題,誰能負責?」我要為人民講話好,那第四個我們講到我如果講錯的話這個署長可以更正我就是說目前的健保準備金是不是大概剩兩千億嗎?如果今天修法過了就是你要投入七百多億到一千多億你的準備金你現在兩千多億大概就撐兩個月吧?是吧?"},{"start":29758.168,"end":29777.999,"text":"如果今天我們修了下去之後快速的要抽出一千多億搞不好搞不好對不起條賬健保費就是必須的全民買單我們今天修了這個法如果面臨要條賬健保費人民的聲音跟意見是什麼"},{"start":29779.676,"end":29802.715,"text":"所以從整回來我是一個區域立委我為人民講話今天我們修了健保法六十二條我們想要解決這邊的問題可是創造了更多的問題甚至在本質上他會去顛覆了實質形同取消了健保總額支付的制度我認為人民不會完全的理解跟支持我是區域立委再一次講"},{"start":29804.244,"end":29825.559,"text":"大家都是為醫界講話。」我非常認同所以我非常語重心長的我希望這個法大家多再深思不宜用修法的方式讓典值保障入法第二個也要跟院長這個懇求這麼重要的姿勢體大的健保制度的全面翻轉或是可能面臨的傷害或是癱瘓"},{"start":29827.1,"end":29851.361,"text":"也不應當也不可能是一次的協商會議就解決了然後就院會去進行處理用這種方式用表決我剛說的健保是專業醫療是專業我們不要真的我們都要去非常慎重的把這件事情從長計議來好好處理這是我今天完整的也聆聽了大家的觀點之後我進行的分析跟我的分享謝謝"},{"start":29852.802,"end":29878.613,"text":"謝謝吳思耀委員發言接下來陳菁委員發言稍微等待蘇清雪蘇清雪之後請陳菁委員發言謝謝剛有提到不分區立委跟區域立委我希望不分區立委跟區域立委其實都是代表人民我們這邊代表最基層的醫事人員陳昭芝委員代表最基層的藥師王彥明委員代表最基層的社福團體"},{"start":29880.296,"end":29908.506,"text":"所以希望不要把部分區立委所服務的團體就排除在人民之外剛有提到說這個許多財務面的考量但我也非常希望執政黨的委員還有官員都可以把公務的這個資金的撥補或是撥補到健保裡面當成對人民健康的投資而不是成本"},{"start":29909.426,"end":29932.802,"text":"一直提到總額、總額其實總額的成長率完全追不上醫療的利用率因為我們高齡化還有新藥科技等等不斷的納入健保最終我們把疫情後的照顧也一併納入我們當時認為疫情可能已經結束了但是我們卻罔顧了疫情一波一波的再起"},{"start":29933.803,"end":29949.54,"text":"所有最基層的醫事人員都有一個極限也有講到說健保必須改革而且這個健保改革要有短期、中期、長程的目標等等但這句話大概在九年前"},{"start":29950.501,"end":29976.479,"text":"蔡前總統上任前他就已經在健保改革還有醫事人員的白皮書對全國的人民說到說我們要讓醫療服務的價格合理化我知道長年以來為了不讓健保倒下健保給付給各位的點值一直在打折我們感謝醫師以及醫事人員為了守護國人健康所付出的犧牲"},{"start":29977.279,"end":30003.572,"text":"未來我們也願意來檢討健保的支付標準表同時不會只罔顧支出面的控制也會重視醫療需求面的問題這個是蔡英文前總統所提到的原文但是過去了九年醫事人員眼中看到的點值是打折再打折甚至今年的第一季今年的第二季都沒有希望可以達到0.9、0.8"},{"start":30006.613,"end":30024.498,"text":"都有困難。」所以我想這個短中長期的目標真的已經努力了九年了這邊剛剛好在立法院的圖書館找到了許多的執政黨委員、官員所提到關於點職的發言在2018年5月30日"},{"start":30027.259,"end":30043.346,"text":"二十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法"},{"start":30047.068,"end":30060.895,"text":"所有醫護人員醫事員權益導致血汗醫護現象難解並要求衛福部國發委員會於一個月內提出書面告並且做出具體的作為具體的作為第二點"},{"start":30062.196,"end":30084.162,"text":"秋泰元部長時任秋泰元委員提到說要於三年內達成1.1億元之目標協助血汗醫護可以解決醫療品質可以提升保障民眾健康而且是不分黨派當時連署的有吳坤義委員、林靜儀委員現在的林靜儀次長以及我們國民黨的陳怡銘委員"},{"start":30086.843,"end":30108.155,"text":"好再來今年呢剛有提到區域委員我們也找到了劉建國委員他也是代表我們雲林的區域委員還有林俊憲委員不好意思是林俊憲委員2024年3月提案人是林俊憲委員黃秀芳委員連署的有王振旭委員林月琴委員"},{"start":30108.915,"end":30120.589,"text":"提到說近年來醫事人員不堪壓榨人力持續出走開始影響醫護照護的品質目前臺灣醫療的保健經常性支出佔GDP6.1%低於OECD國家的平均9.6%"},{"start":30128.357,"end":30153.193,"text":"建保署管理者無止境的擠壓醫療現場的合理作為,反而忽視醫療人員的服務價值,長期控管與節流,也讓醫療人力跟資源只是勉強堪用而已。一旦遇到疫情或是戰爭,就會崩潰。醫療支出不應該視為成本,而是對人民健康的投資,並且提案1.0.95%。」"},{"start":30156.076,"end":30163.966,"text":"十五條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":30171.095,"end":30185.428,"text":"但剛看到2018年邱太元前委員的提案六年前就要求1.1元已經過了三年又三年我剛仔細的算了一下距離部長上次提出1.1元已經經過2228天了所以在這邊其實我們也不是講出一個部長沒有想過的事情"},{"start":30193.715,"end":30211.07,"text":"其實部長以前也曾經疾呼這件事情我們真的不是在希望你做一個很倉促的決定所以我也希望說分級醫療1.1元都是2018年邱太元委員的理想我們在這邊很想要一起把它實現謝謝"},{"start":30215.56,"end":30217.261,"text":"條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分"},{"start":30227.421,"end":30254.756,"text":"就是我們吳斯亞委員所講的還有柯建銘總召所講的他說我把健保批評的一文不值沒有健保是大家非常滿意將近九成的滿意度台灣有對一個公共政策有高聲的人支持我在講的是健保的總額預算制他把它界定比如說今年是五百億"},{"start":30256.418,"end":30272.924,"text":"他就五百億結束了,國安會發展了,就整個平台有議改。你議改做到五百、五十、六百的農林道的事,就除下來,今年每年都結算完畢。所以為什麼有0.9、0.8、0.6、0.81,剛剛兩個文都來了。"},{"start":30277.924,"end":30290.88,"text":"我們是在反對總額預算,就是把所有的財務風險全部丟給一屆。包括邱太在當委員,大家在當委員都說講得理直氣壯,現在看你這麼保險,你很窮。第二,我們是部分區立委,"},{"start":30295.885,"end":30307.891,"text":"我個人參加過三場大選選舉,我不是沒有選民的壓力,我不是笑的,我不是說我只是在替他出聲,韓院長參加得更大型,所以我們都是從基層上來,將來要繼續選的,我如果後備部我也是那種唾棄。第三個,全世界現在在做總和的,只有中華民國台灣,其他沒有人在做總和了,"},{"start":30325.64,"end":30352.838,"text":"德國做住院總額做一陣子也不敢做了,他的不足,今年的不足還可以拿明年的來補,就是卯吃掩涼,隱身卯涼,國務院素質不好所以我要跟你報告就是說,加州總額預算的國家沒有報告,剛才大家在堅持,因為這個總額預算太好的,行政單位完全沒有安排"},{"start":30353.878,"end":30363.746,"text":"國家沒有壓力全部只要協商完畢全部丟給醫界醫界已經這樣十五年來大家動不動你現在若沒有要處理護署一樣在做、美方一樣在做新冠病毒越來越嚴重一直燒起來,還要給一百萬人感染然後一直死,死亡率越來越高你就看著它你就要繼續這樣擺下去嗎然後平均說明越來越短"},{"start":30385.069,"end":30398.134,"text":"這笑死人吶吼所以所以我剛剛跟八大團體我跟他們講了我剛剛也有跟柯總召講了他們的要求非常的卑微來我們的醫療費用門診佔65%"},{"start":30405.049,"end":30419.199,"text":"四勝佔5%。」我們的住院才30%喔!現在最嚴重的就是住院住不下去,不然要扶手照料料所以他們要求很卑微的請求就是說住院還有門診手術還有急診"},{"start":30421.761,"end":30449.787,"text":"給他保障1.1塊錢。」這個剛剛時事署長也有部分講到了。然後門子的部分可以給他們補充0.95。我覺得他們要求很卑微、很好的、很起碼的請求。你若讓他們解除的錢,他們可以承諾多來改善勞動條件、增加工資。他們可以每一季報員工的薪資報上來。就好像我們新冠期間所有的"},{"start":30452.381,"end":30474.433,"text":"新冠的特別預算撥補給這些防疫人員的獎金都是每一家醫院都要報電腦檔上來主席處都可以去查的所以他們都承諾因為這些醫護人員你不要把他留下來這是國家的資產你不要自己留下來遭料料救不回來"},{"start":30475.697,"end":30483.001,"text":"二十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正"},{"start":30506.011,"end":30531.566,"text":"不是要採訪阿娜啦,這件事你去說話,不是我們在座所有人、每一個人的想法大家在這裡就是要如何解決嘛所以我只覺得蔡依我剛才講說現在講的一文不值,因為你太多情緒的公職但是剛才有一個人坐進來叫做副總召坐進來然後就開始他從來不講話了,差不多了差不多要表管了"},{"start":30533.683,"end":30557.234,"text":"這套不是在演的,今天是一個非常嚴肅的時刻。包括剛才在揶揄說紐關邱部長以前當議員的時候的提案以及現在民進院縣長王醫師的提案我覺得法院長你有失蹤眼,你這樣輕蔑的效法不對,這是一個很嚴肅的。陳醫師也會把他撈回去,說陳醫師以前的提案2018年的時候的點子怎麼樣"},{"start":30562.737,"end":30570.861,"text":"我是覺得我們今天是一個非常嚴肅的時刻我為什麼要講這些呢?我剛才講過我沒有否認今天所有在這裡的人都要想辦法來解決一些問題但是剛才孫先生講到一句話總和只有台灣在有你要用什麼制度我們要開始談"},{"start":30590.168,"end":30616.519,"text":"我講這種健保法我1994年到現在我一直在30年我在現場我講台灣立法史上最荒謬的一刻好像在什麼時候2010年的時候那是什麼時代呢吳敦義當行政院長的時候我們知道所謂我們黨推行二代健保各位當初二代健保現在是什麼現在是"},{"start":30619.332,"end":30627.904,"text":"那時候是要交付總統的現在是補充保費對不對各位知道那時候時代是在推交付總統的楊志強當署長的時代"},{"start":30631.397,"end":30654.682,"text":"五定義當行政院長的時候但是我為什麼是中華民國立法史上最荒謬的一刻呢?從2011年一直在討論當國民黨提出馬英九時代提出二代健保他是用什麼?用家戶總守的整個委員會已經開始審查審查七、八次那時候政委執行長是誰?就李義士那當然我還是民黨總召"},{"start":30657.262,"end":30679.564,"text":"所以我非常關心這個案子因為國民黨提出的所謂二代健保當然民進黨對於國民黨提出二代健保的交入總所得我們也有一些對岸那時候我們對岸寫二十幾條那條文裡面因為整個你看健保法這次改我們都提了對岸這對岸不是簡單提出內部還"},{"start":30682.146,"end":30697.955,"text":"開了很多次會議,包括那時候是蔡英文總統當主席,我們在野的時候,我們在州分黨部,在民進黨內部,在黨的會議上,包括林淑跟胡錦哲一直大吵。"},{"start":30698.935,"end":30705.119,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":30728.935,"end":30752.484,"text":"到已經委員會審查七八次了你意思是說一定要出委員會好一定要出委員會沒有關係那來朝野協商委員會出委員會以後也朝野協商好幾次也一定好那年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年"},{"start":30754.062,"end":30781.701,"text":"在表決之前開完黨黨會議一條一條拜託我們就整合好這一條我們立場就這樣輸了就輸因為我們只有二七席嘛但是我們立場我認輸我們版本是長得怎樣內幕都整合好我把所有部隊帶到一場就能夠開始表決很奇怪的景象發生國民黨不翼而飛找不完的這是什麼"},{"start":30782.83,"end":30810.592,"text":"這很奇怪那這一場竟然連國民黨一個都沒有來王院長現在好像你在的時候我們柯建銘開始開議好不好事項怎麼都沒有人今天要表決中大法案各黨都是假動了怎麼國民黨全部不見了原來國民黨業務炒得非常厲害不可以二代憲法不可以用交惡種種手的這是立法市長最荒謬的一課"},{"start":30812.67,"end":30837.325,"text":"從行政企業案到委員會審查、所有委員會草案、協商、衛生、表決、表決當天所有人都不見了,國民黨翻盤,只有國民黨做得到因為它中間內部有一些問題他們一直蓋住,到最後全部翻了,就不幹了既然就傳出來說國民黨不要了,要改,要改什麼?"},{"start":30838.559,"end":30844.383,"text":"補充保惠補充保惠補充保惠補充保惠補充保惠補充保惠"},{"start":30868.427,"end":30891.418,"text":"大家都在意見裡面,只是大家看法上面,讓政治理念不一樣是一回事。但是在公共政策上,我們都一直打過仗,包括現在大家對公共政策上面的努力,以及在左眼。好,我問楊樹洋署長說,楊樹洋署長,你為了這個拜託很多次,又來給我討論,一條一條看,做到現在全部都白了。我說你應該為了政策負責,你應該辭職。"},{"start":30898.86,"end":30923.232,"text":"這樣才是一個政務官現在還在雖然他寫很多文章我都從不對於國家內容上面我是不一樣的意義上深刻永遠沒有辦法忘記那一刻他比了他臉他說他自己後援昨天應該下台啊他說我真的不好意思我後援因為他也沒有辦法下台下台國民黨也倒了"},{"start":30925.579,"end":30950.697,"text":"它是稱在那裏,它是這樣比的你問楊志強在我辦公室,然後他跟我講那個計畫柯總召,未來下次你民進黨執政的時候我再幫你們弄三代健保或是二點五那一項我拜託,不用不用不用,我你這個平安平安不通,拜託拜託這個,我想講這個歷史就要讓大家知道這個整個健保的制度要怎麼改"},{"start":30951.818,"end":30977.732,"text":"官方國民黨執政的時候、馬英九執政的時候改為現在的補充保費。剛才我們時事長也談到,那補充保費上面有什麼可以再增加,能夠增加一點收入。所以我今天要講這些話就是說,不是副本席委員來,欸,差不多後來標革了,咳了一口,不是這回事。剛才主席總書人講話還很保守,"},{"start":30980.799,"end":31008.542,"text":"你反而要提一個法案你做一個變更要替代財源這財源基法要增加國家支出你要增加財源你其實在我眼光裡面這次就是違反憲法整治了違反大法案4391以及264就是說你提一個法這樣修改點子至少增加一千億以上"},{"start":31009.683,"end":31033.718,"text":"這其實立法院可以提的行政部門自己去提一個計畫提一個制度出來改善計畫假如這麼簡單的話那早就處理了現在不是說共同攬牌合起來過半可以為所欲為我們現在看到你們現在有兩支箭是射在整個國家心臟第一個八美"},{"start":31034.878,"end":31040.782,"text":"本來罷免是可以罷免的,你用同樣罷免法,請把陳柏惟罷免掉。"},{"start":31056.515,"end":31063.85,"text":"所以同樣一個制度你可能罷免過人家現在整個你違憲端在你名義起來你怕被罷免又換週了"},{"start":31066.896,"end":31087.658,"text":"又要改深圳,深圳就是沒有罷免。第二之件是什麼?就是憲法修正法改變,要加工憲法。這個東西我倒是覺得每一個政治人物乃至於這個行政官員都在處理公共事務的人要憲法及公法的基本概念。"},{"start":31089.109,"end":31099.857,"text":"不是我們加起來又說一條要表決贏的就是要增加一千億的支出這個是可以嗎?"},{"start":31100.888,"end":31123.766,"text":"所以當然很理性的你要砍頭我今天講說因為我在現場從1994年到30年來我不敢講我是最內行的因為當初民進黨裡面發言最多是誰?是沈大老他只能保重病小病不保了所以很多制度的選擇上面包括剛才蘇貞映講說那董事長要匯掉算了好匯掉要用什麼制度?能不能談清楚呢?"},{"start":31125.727,"end":31147.601,"text":"你這樣一直增加保險的時候,總共支出就破產,盡頭就破產了嘛。這個影響的幅度之大,大家好好想一想,我不是不可以討論的人,我希望我們有反擊輕重,包括剛才邱太元,因為當民意代表,"},{"start":31148.021,"end":31160.615,"text":"和當任官不一樣,我都體會。」他當民意代表的時候,美英文講法民意代表是他的提案而已,提案而已,不是修法的,你今天是要修法的。當民意代表的時候他講450億,那今天不止了。"},{"start":31164.239,"end":31185.837,"text":"因為當然不只嘛,要你一巴嘛,假如450億可以解決,那可能還有解放。今天不只,還有很多制度上面的修改。我剛才招職也講過,分歧制度怎麼,我們還有很多,像藝民大家都很了解的,所以我們應該用一個比較"},{"start":31187.479,"end":31204.276,"text":"簽譯性的原則來看待這個事情,不是以強制性的原則,我今天就先這樣給你表決,不然我等人來,什麼都沒人說,來表決,明天來談就可以。也就是說,那八大公院去看你的時候,你韓院長講的錯,沒有關係,你第一案就把它表決掉。"},{"start":31205.461,"end":31220.153,"text":"如此可以嗎?我沒有講說第一案第一案就是要處理嘛我只要再想推說一點,您代表很重要第一案代表要處理"},{"start":31220.894,"end":31247.748,"text":"但是我們今天所有的過程中我非常推卸雜招中央議事因為我們今天不是在談匯薪單證、大家在那裡賣淚酒我們今天剛剛俗語一個正教法、正教育法我很感謝在黨朋友包括副總召以及中小企業發展條例大家都很理性的台灣所以今天公共政策先是何其重大曾經是我們國家的光榮"},{"start":31248.849,"end":31274.571,"text":"我們不應該把他一直問了,但是我們知道要怎麼救他,我們要大家來想這是大家想到的稍微有輕易性的原則謝謝柯總召,接下來我們請傅坤祺總召發言陳昭志委員請準備謝謝院長啊,耐心的等候跟聽大家所有的這些發言"},{"start":31276.301,"end":31297.736,"text":"我真的非常敬佩我非常敬佩執政黨今天講的每一句話都刻骨銘心一定要有財政機遇一定不能違反憲法一定不能毀憲亂政但是我們必須要很務實地來面對"},{"start":31299.997,"end":31325.601,"text":"台灣人才的流失。」其實今天討論的我們所有的內容你趕快出去抽菸啦不要吵啦我們很務實來看台灣人才的流失啦今天下午大概討論的都是關於這方面主要的事情為什麼這麼多人才不斷在流失台灣的醫界啊不只是台灣的寶啊更是台灣之光啊"},{"start":31327.527,"end":31355.982,"text":"過去過去台灣的醫界是亞洲第一啊那時候我們不在日本之下是亞洲第一啊我小時候對不對能考上醫科的有幾個嘛對不對國家所有的精英最頂尖的人才都投入醫界對包括邱部長對不對那在這個領域裡面出來大家在"},{"start":31356.644,"end":31385.683,"text":"整個台灣的醫療界創造了奇蹟但是成績何時現在到新加坡去到香港去是台灣的三倍薪資我們的醫界現在變成血汗工廠從COVID-19過了以後有多少大幅的流失以前醫院是搶著要開床地方的衛生單位同意還有中央的衛福部同意"},{"start":31386.803,"end":31408.554,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修"},{"start":31412.008,"end":31439.457,"text":"我們台灣以後醫界要何懼何寵啊?難道我們都要以後都要拜託菲律賓的畢業生印尼的畢業生那些醫界的人來做台灣的主流醫界的儲備人才嗎?現在已經台灣就很多菲律賓的醫生了以後不是菲律賓菲律賓人都不願意來台灣了以後是印尼的醫生在台灣"},{"start":31442.079,"end":31468.808,"text":"我們一定要走成這個樣子嗎?臺灣真的有這麼悲哀嗎?執政黨如果覺得臺灣有這麼悲哀,沒有這樣花錢,有人花沒關係嘛。所以說,啊你都不要花錢就算啦嘛,就領土啊你就好嘛,對吧?我真的是聽到齁,我剛剛不勝唏噓啊,真的齁,我真的,第一個齁"},{"start":31470.872,"end":31486.538,"text":"我們這樣講真的我們是不是要好好來檢討台灣整體的制度那我在這裡還是要再一次對現在我們這些好朋友"},{"start":31494.428,"end":31521.811,"text":"副制度的全國空檔會議。前進基隆造勢,賴清德喊話開專家會議改革健保及副制度,也提出平均健保點值1.1元的目標,讓一介辛苦不在北溪市事隔一天。我真的要,我真的太崇拜你們了,說這是毀憲亂政,違反憲法,你說民意代表講就算了,他這個中華民國的副總統,"},{"start":31523.206,"end":31528.132,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條"},{"start":31541.38,"end":31549.084,"text":"我們真的要感謝邱部長當時的提案我們就正面的回應一切好不好好不好我為你鼓掌也正面回應賴清德總統"},{"start":31559.23,"end":31582.849,"text":"草案相關你這樣才是就結束啊不是啦,大家都說完了阿阿沒說完阿草案相關你怎麼不知道阿差不多了要來表決阿等一下我絕對有意見等一下好好談一下你先聽我尊重一下主席先把麥克風壓掉麻煩一下柯總首盡量精準精準精準精準精準醫療精準醫療來"},{"start":31588.806,"end":31593.212,"text":"對不起陳昭志維你稍微等一下你在柯委員後面好嗎沒關係你先講沒關係老朋友來你先"},{"start":31596.726,"end":31618.865,"text":"那柯總長要讓你明先,招職委員請發言好謝謝主席我們今天談的這個問題已經不是今天這兩天發生了已經存在很久了可能有一二十年之久所以如果你們要談財政紀律我可不可以談行政怠惰尤其一屆長期是比較高的比率是支持民進黨的"},{"start":31620.026,"end":31634.122,"text":"老實說這個執政黨其實對不起議界真的是蠻久的時間3.5%的GDP要照顧百分之百的民眾要照顧所有的疾病真的是血汗加這個"},{"start":31635.143,"end":31645.289,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案"},{"start":31659.345,"end":31669.597,"text":"處長我要告訴您說這兩年您開始覺得這個該用的藥要去用早期有多少樣做好事我這兩月特別回去去參加一些新藥審查會議大家完全沒有我給大家一個數字您剛剛說蘇委員說新的藥新藥進行500不是癌藥是782天"},{"start":31680.728,"end":31692.765,"text":"而且只給適應證法定用途裡面的三成所以有一些人同樣的適應證他用不到為什麼我們要設限因為沒有足夠的投資然後這個"},{"start":31697.705,"end":31715.562,"text":"全世界只有台灣發明一件事情你知道我們用癌藥來治療都要治療到沒效為止這個是倫理的問題臨床試驗的絕對倫理學問題比如說你做了什麼不效了就是疾病開始進展表示這個藥對你沒效你都要再去找別的藥但是只有台灣"},{"start":31716.923,"end":31736.777,"text":"他給你限制幾週、幾個月、幾個療程。」王振旭委員您也很清楚我們為什麼這樣做就是沒錢就是說沒錢健保錢不夠我做的都覺得我很違背我的良心這兩個月我回去署長既然好像前景要開始改變了專家們全部都變成在做財務"},{"start":31738.218,"end":31766.657,"text":"專家臨床的醫師本來是要就臨床的價值這個要不要做好這個很有效非常好然後進入以後他財務衝擊可能要幾億癌症本來就是很多病人啊幾億這麼有效的包括一個GDP全部就停住全部就問你有多少錢我們怎麼做我們要怎麼限制這個使用所有的專家都在做財務的管理你那個委員會真的是可以不用聘臨床醫師了"},{"start":31768.078,"end":31770.88,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":31784.128,"end":31797.99,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案。當然,健保點數、扣除醫院營運成本、行政費用必要、設備費用等有關待遇提升的部分,雖然在護病比、健保支付聯動都做,但現在成效有限。」"},{"start":31799.412,"end":31808.38,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":31816.306,"end":31823.588,"text":"你缺乏的人員的薪酬跟他的工作環境。」這個在我附帶決議裡面我有提出這個附帶決議這個部分要趕快去做第二個大家不要太忽視你這個51條這個只需要的部分你要說服民眾告訴民眾部長當年我跟你一起合作健康達人125那本書就是我們想要把一些小病症民眾或是在社區可以處理的"},{"start":31842.853,"end":31854.488,"text":"因為那時候我們已經見到未來的醫療進步未來越昂貴但是我們要照顧重病重症啊所以你到現在只是要就是說都還留在裡面然後"},{"start":31855.919,"end":31879.014,"text":"你不要覺得說那只是一二十億的錢部長署長他會帶動一些就醫的一個行為的改變你做話只要少一次這一次我自己去處理到社交合格鑰匙處理鑰匙現在分數也都很高都是很優秀的人才你少一次就少掉三百多億為什麼還這麼猶豫不去做所以這個部分我們覺得要有時程表不然你就把這個法修過"},{"start":31879.594,"end":31887.257,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分"},{"start":31896.661,"end":31909.947,"text":"三條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案"},{"start":31918.351,"end":31924.998,"text":"二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修"},{"start":31943.182,"end":31961.747,"text":"所以這個東西就是說種種這個措施包括我剛剛提的那幾個點那分級醫療你們逆行道失嘛你就說要做分級醫療你說往下小病症要讓下面的人來承擔但是醫學中心一直增加嘛那醫學中心病床還在增加嘛所以你做的事都在惡化這個"},{"start":31962.907,"end":31966.668,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":31983.052,"end":32003.01,"text":"所以有些時候你自己照顧一下自己,你的重病大病我們會照顧你,如果有人跟我簽約說你的小毛病我到這個年紀不會有人跟我簽約了,如果小毛病都自己付錢我以後重病全部國家付,這是精神啊,你說90%的民眾有滿意度,你如果去問那些重症急症、寒症、難症那些病人家屬,他的滿意度絕對不是這樣,民眾的滿意度在哪?因為他不懂"},{"start":32007.694,"end":32021.187,"text":"他不知道醫療指標整個落後一方便啦方便就醫啦他的滿意度在這個地方要繼續往下問他的滿意度那為什麼醫療的人員他的不滿意度這麼高那你也要問他們的這個想法不要用一個滿意度就來處理所以為什麼我了解執政黨不處理滿意度90我幹嘛去改革"},{"start":32031.957,"end":32048.231,"text":"那今天大家丟出的問題就是假的嗎?不是假的啊!都存在啊!所以我覺得執政黨尤其一屆一直長期大部分比喻都是支持這個執政黨的你們真的要好好去思考這個問題然後把這些不好意思我今天的附帶決議部長跟署長我正是在這個"},{"start":32054.7,"end":32076.037,"text":"審查會保留的負債券。」當然不只這些東西,所以我希望你們有具體的提出的這個方案出來。好,謝謝。謝謝。謝謝昭志委員發言。今天我們請柯總召,請,麻煩。呃,我仔細聆聽陳昭志委員的談話,他最後一句,就是憲法滿意度將近90,所以執行長不改,不對。"},{"start":32077.808,"end":32100.242,"text":"當然我們這個是剛才柯市長講過一般民眾的看法但是相對的醫藥界有很多不同意見今天才要改啊面對這個問題非常嚴重啊所以沒有所謂存在所謂說哦印度接罰九十買印度九十所以市政黨不改每一個當中執政的都在想辦法常常在講"},{"start":32101.806,"end":32126.393,"text":"我剛才講過2010年的時候加厚總守德改為補充保費是一夕間翻轉表決要填開然後再發一年時間到了2013才改為改到新的二代健保也就是補充保費所以每一個執政者都是在想要怎麼處理每一個執政當然也在想那時候二代健保突然翻轉"},{"start":32127.293,"end":32149.678,"text":"但二零一三到一月一號開始實施的補充保費到現在當然有些我們今天講的我不希望就是說餘款虧報啦陳昭樹委員從藥界角度來講你剛才所談的意思我很清楚就是保大不保小吧只是用藥的話不要那麼健保這樣可以嗎可是這個以後那這個不能亂吃藥啊"},{"start":32152.623,"end":32168.993,"text":"這很多是相對的問題不是用簡單的邏輯來處理的這也要看我承認沒千瘡百孔都要改坦白講如何開源解鈾所有人都在想方法總來講貧窮夫妻當然百思哀"},{"start":32171.67,"end":32195.367,"text":"當然我們現在但是邱部長剛剛有談到36%的部分有一些可以拿出來還有政府的預算挖出來這些他是很誠懇的該講的道理都講出來了那這些夠不夠當然不是這樣簡單的簡單的就是說就這樣表決掉就算了請問我剛才一直講就是說"},{"start":32200.595,"end":32214.025,"text":"回到新聞提示上面請看憲法七十條請跟大法官解釋沒有人可以提案那為什麼婚姻集團兩兆元他自己要丟起來"},{"start":32215.325,"end":32229.936,"text":"兩兆人不是到7月16號以前要表決相關的要丟起來嗎?我沒有亂講啊!事實查核中心已經講是民進黨亂講的你可以上網去看一下事實查核中心已經講那是亂講那是假消息假訊兩兆是民進黨自己講的"},{"start":32231.977,"end":32240.42,"text":"沒有這回事,請自己看一下,看一下,這是BOT的案子,好不好?不要再回這,今天當然是提外話,好都比較好,我講的都比較好,沒有"},{"start":32259.508,"end":32287.517,"text":"衛生署委員都求委員長都請下來,不敢處理了。今天這個題外話,我再來還是要講一句話,衛生部沒有處理,我們大家都了解,我也想要處理,讓很多人去滿足,但是現在反其輕鬆應該怎麼處理,必須還是有配套還有想法,才能夠所謂的睡醒。我也想要說,大家都拍手,"},{"start":32288.617,"end":32293.201,"text":"三條條文修正草案條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分"},{"start":32317.27,"end":32341.483,"text":"健保法第六十二條修正條文修正條文,我們並沒有達成共識。我想我們就下一次繼續來協商,草引協商。好不好?好,那我們今天另外要徵詢一下各位,邱部長,您先請回,謝謝啊,邱部長,對,對,謝謝你們啊,今天麻煩你們一下午了,謝謝啊。另外我要問一下黨團幹部,另外黨團幹部,我們等一下,各位黨團幹部請問一下,我們等一下還有"},{"start":32358.154,"end":32363.34,"text":"那我們就下星期一下午兩點我們繼續開會非常感謝大家好謝謝"},{"start":32462.878,"end":32473.269,"text":"好我們星期一下午兩點半繼續協商就不另發文了好謝謝"},{"start":32551.099,"end":32555.406,"text":"草案協商在溝通我們禮拜一下午3點開始我們會發一個書面通知"}]}},{"id":"16071","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16071","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ead56277c358e1b52d0d93e2f57a2419294f242ceca9577839cd2f0c3e732281bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-05T11:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人及委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人分別擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。二、委員盧縣一等16人擬具「地方制度法部分條文修正草案」案。三、委員徐富癸等18人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。四、委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等17人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-05T10:44:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T12:44:00+08:00","duration":7167,"影片長度":"01:59:27","委員發言時間":"10:44:33 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Kacaw等17人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案案。」案極監院會進赴二讀與相關提案閉案協商的本院委員盧縣一等16人地方制度法部分條文修正草案委員徐富癸等18人以及委員吳立華等17人"},{"start":1648.533,"end":1672.128,"text":"分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案。」案。然後呢,今天的協商,那個院會又增加了晉赴二讀徐富癸委員和吳麗華委員的提案,我們今天就併案來協商,我們今天一起納入討論。我們現在先介紹一下在場的委員還有行政機關列席的代表。"},{"start":1674.017,"end":1696.104,"text":"在場的委員有鄭天財委員、吳麗華委員、徐富癸委員、陳秀寶委員、陳素月委員。出席官員的名單歡迎內政部部長劉世芳部長以及民政司代理司長鄭英宏"},{"start":1697.865,"end":1722.972,"text":"名正司地方制度科科長拜淑黃名正司視察黃振傑名正司的專員張法齊名正司的科員簡育瑩原住民主委員會副主任鍾欣華"},{"start":1725.43,"end":1730.233,"text":"中和規劃處專門委員曾欣忠、中選會選務處副處長王曉林、科長賴佑中、主計總處公務預算處專門委員李易柔、法務部參事廖江憲、"},{"start":1750.489,"end":1751.772,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":1761.583,"end":1762.404,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":1791.823,"end":1795.125,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":1810.384,"end":1810.964,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":1830.197,"end":1846.874,"text":"最近以來大家提供的一個意見所以再一次做修正那其實如果維持本意我們其實就是希望達到說去處理擬具的一個影響過大席次驟降的問題跟"},{"start":1848.135,"end":1868.338,"text":"沒有山地鄉的這些縣市沒有辦法選出山地原住民議員這個部分就是特別希望去處理因此在這一次的版本修正我就是希望說一般區域在議員席次的部分就是有去處理總人口數"},{"start":1869.139,"end":1889.969,"text":"條文修正草案案 案例一等19人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案 案例一等19人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案 案例一等19人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案 案例一等19人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條條文修正草案 案例一等19人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條條文修正草案 案例一等19人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條條文修正草案 案例一等19人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條條條文修正草案 案例一等19人"},{"start":1895.251,"end":1909.32,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商．事由：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案．事由．一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案．事由．一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案．事由．一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案．事由．一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告"},{"start":1920.888,"end":1922.349,"text":"條文修正草案案 案例"},{"start":1948.926,"end":1971.855,"text":"還有盧縣一委員好還有黃秀芳委員好歡迎來到內政委員會好謝謝好有關本日的協商會議本席在5月15號有召集本法案第一次的協商的時候就有關晉赴二讀盧縣一委員的提案除了第三十三條於"},{"start":1973.615,"end":1993.968,"text":"審查會通過的修正有關聯性之外,盧委員所提的其餘條文,我們就先不予增訂或維持現行條文。所以,今天我們的協商,我們仍然聚焦來修正地方制度法第三十三條的條文內容。"},{"start":1994.989,"end":2021.46,"text":"條文修正草案案案案。另外本席在5月15號的時候最後我的裁示是說請內政部將本席以及吳立華委員所提的兩個修正動議版本帶回去檢視條文的內容就如何來保障平地原住民以及山地原住民的參政權"},{"start":2022.66,"end":2039.655,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告"},{"start":2041.036,"end":2069.639,"text":"還有議員希望能夠更加釐清。最後有關討論本條原住民人口分佈擬具的部分,我們也請內政部提供更精確的數字,讓本條的修正條文能夠更加的完善。不知道內政部今天是不是有把上述相關資料準備好了,我們現在是不是先請內政部的部長先說明一下,謝謝。"},{"start":2072.762,"end":2100.171,"text":"謝謝昭緯還有謝謝關心地方制度法的委員來參加今天的這個審查以及我們的政黨協商那剛剛那個高金委員所提到的部分就是說有關席次人口擬具的部分我大概很簡單報告一下呢我們現在請我們的同仁去印一下我們所依照目前的人口數所算出來的部分提供給各位參考好嗎好麻煩一下我昨天晚上才出來好不好意思比較困擾一點好"},{"start":2101.992,"end":2103.254,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":2120.589,"end":2126.791,"text":"條文修正草案案件事宜一等列印一等列印一等列印一等列印一等列印一等列印一等列印一等列印一等列印一等列印一等列印一等列印一等列印"},{"start":2149.218,"end":2150.279,"text":"條文修正草案案件事宜及委員報告"},{"start":2166.378,"end":2185.879,"text":"基本上大家都了解這個狀況也是會今天來參加協商的主要原因我就修正建議的分析跟大家報告一下第一個就是高金昭偉所提的修正動議在議員的部分山地原住民的議員增加4席非原住民的議員增加5席"},{"start":2186.58,"end":2213.997,"text":"但是在代表的部分有可能山地原住民的代表會增加9席平地原住民的代表最多可能減少到51席非原民代表的增加9席但是雖然可以適度來保障山地原住民的參政權但是下一屆屏東縣議員席次的驟減問題沒有辦法解決而且人口減少的縣市或者鄉鎮的話對於非原住民議員跟代表席次會有增加的情形"},{"start":2214.757,"end":2230.282,"text":"第三、如果原住民代表改採外加,導致部分鄉鎮市平地原住民代表的席次可能會大幅減少。第二個有關於武力華委員的修正動議的部分,在議員的部分,山地原住民的議員是增加4席,"},{"start":2230.862,"end":2247.088,"text":"條文修正草案：一等13人擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一等13人擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一等13人擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一等15人擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一等15人擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一等15人擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條條文修正草案：一等15人擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條條文修正草案：一等15人擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條條文修正"},{"start":2253.69,"end":2279.369,"text":"第三、原住民代表維持內涵會擠壓到17席非原住民代表的席次這兩個修正動議我再跟大家說明一下這是上一次5月15日的時候兩位非常關心山地原住民議員的參政權的部分但是我們在經過溝通之後我想大家已經越來越趨向相同的見解所以我們有幾個建議的方向"},{"start":2280.229,"end":2296.275,"text":"一、為保障原住民及非原住民的參政權益,且兼顧人口減少縣市,非原住民議員不至於因修法反而有增加或鄉鎮市代表因修法而其次減少的狀況。"},{"start":2297.395,"end":2324.823,"text":"建議只有修正原住民議員改裁外加的保障非原住民議員的席次人口擬具只有一個擬具改就是八十萬人的條件為七十萬人那另外會增訂非原住民議員席次維持一百一十一年的席次條款那除了這個以外可能各位委員手上的就是我們剛剛所提供的這個非常複雜的這個表格請大家看一下"},{"start":2325.383,"end":2326.143,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項"},{"start":2354.116,"end":2354.637,"text":"徐富癸等18人擬具"},{"start":2368.702,"end":2393.913,"text":"很感謝部長的說明和報告繼續我們也歡迎李柏宇委員今天也來了現場現在請問一下在場的委員吳麗環委員也有提一個修正動議條文對不對那您的修正動議條文跟您的今天又提的二讀進入協商的條文有什麼不同嗎還是一樣等一下我們先請鄭天財委員謝謝"},{"start":2396.834,"end":2397.635,"text":"條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":2411.36,"end":2414.321,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事"},{"start":2436.989,"end":2441.574,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項"},{"start":2459.602,"end":2460.843,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":2483.045,"end":2486.928,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等19人分別擬具〈地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案〉案。第三十三條的第一項大家看一下直轄市議員剛剛聽部長的意思是說沒有問題外加對吧"},{"start":2511.475,"end":2514.237,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具〈地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":2538.251,"end":2539.131,"text":"條文修正草案案案例"},{"start":2558.7,"end":2577.248,"text":"內政部對那我們就來看一下內政部按照我們上次的協商條文的部分的對於不管是體力不然是文字在哪一邊部分我們就我們"},{"start":2593.848,"end":2613.742,"text":"部長是這一份嗎?主席,我可以說明一下嗎?跟我手上這個是一樣嗎?應該是不一樣,它是今天才提出來的"},{"start":2615.842,"end":2623.188,"text":"條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":2642.669,"end":2670.649,"text":"我必須要說明一下,如果部長因為這個今天的朝野協商是我們今天開始然後沒有開始之前吳立華委員的修正動議版本是還沒有進來討論的所以你們私底下就跟吳立華委員討論說他要用他的修正版本來按照他的修正版本然後提文字我覺得身為召委的我是非常不受尊重"},{"start":2671.81,"end":2695.319,"text":"如果你們是以他的剛剛提出來的修正動議版本要來跟你們現在內政部提出來的這個條文你們感覺非常不尊重召委好不好所以現在是等一下對不起還是先讓我理清楚一下所以現在部長您是針對上一次1130515"},{"start":2699.087,"end":2700.968,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等19人分別擬具〈地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":2724.717,"end":2733.933,"text":"所以部長您現在要提出來的就是您們認為協商條文的部分來做整理是不是這樣的意思?"},{"start":2735.607,"end":2763.508,"text":"報告召委我想都沒有問題就是說剛剛有委員有提到說他有修正東西要加進來那我們也可以接受那如果高金召委會覺得說要用一個是先一個是後對就是你們要用的版本就是說我剛剛有提到已經擺在那上面的版本如果是要用這個版本的話那就是以這個會需要有修正文字的部分來做修正這是一個說法"},{"start":2764.429,"end":2790.525,"text":"那剛剛那個因為吳委員他有提到說他有個修正動議那要不要一起討論那我們也都尊重對一起討論是可以但是你們剛剛的說法是由他的修正動議版本來修你們的文字這個我就不接受好不好因為如果掉出錄影帶你們剛剛說法是這樣那如果你們修正你們的說法的話朝委的權限就沒有被侵犯到那我就接受"},{"start":2791.065,"end":2805.355,"text":"所以今天有吳立華委員修正動議版本那麼我也提我的修正動議版本然後還有現在內政部你們針對這兩個修正動議版本你們覺得可以一併來討論是不是這樣的意思"},{"start":2808.758,"end":2829.298,"text":"本席必須召委,我必須要堅守我們做召委的一個立場。如果一個是先一個是後,因為吳立華委員是民進黨也就是你們執政黨的委員,如果你們私底下都講好把你的版本跟他版本弄在一起,然後今天再提修正統一版本,召委的權限就會覺得被受到挑戰。"},{"start":2830.558,"end":2831.238,"text":"條文修正草案案案例"},{"start":2851.667,"end":2852.987,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件"},{"start":2881.11,"end":2891.994,"text":"租委修正動議版本及內政部提出的修正動議條文。」所以你的意思就是說我們兩位委員的修正動議版本按照這個基底來談論?"},{"start":2915.044,"end":2915.925,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3110.824,"end":3137.5,"text":"非常謝謝大家很和諧的已經討論完了我還是再一次的再說明一下今天我們就不要提任何一個修正動議了好不好我們就簡單化我們就以上次的協商條文為基底如果各委員或者是部長各行政機關你們有覺得要一些修正的我們就以這個基底來修正好不好來我們看一下第三十三條的第一項"},{"start":3140.022,"end":3159.683,"text":"議員鄉鎮市民代表分別由直轄市民、縣市民、鄉鎮市民依法選舉之,任期四年連選得連任。」應該這沒有問題吧?這齁,第一項應該是沒有問題齁?對,來,我們請醫事人幫我宣讀好了好不好?來,第二項"},{"start":3167.039,"end":3172.143,"text":"第二項第二項第二項第二項第二項第二項第二項"},{"start":3188.996,"end":3216.852,"text":"第二款第一目依區域一元名額縣市人口扣除原住民人口在一萬人以下者不得超過十一人人口在二十萬人以下者不得超過十九人人口在四十萬人以下者不得超過三十三人人口在八十萬人以下者不得超過四十三人人口在一百六十萬人以下者不得超過五十七人人口超過一百六十萬人者不得超過六十人但該縣市五原住民一元名額者原住民人口應計入縣市人口"},{"start":3217.552,"end":3217.813,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":3233.755,"end":3234.056,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3250.309,"end":3272.063,"text":"以上這個第一幕第二款第一幕的部分我們把80改為70應該沒問題吧那個好沒問題還有下面的那個也是在第一段的部分吼那邊有寫但依第二幕規定計算無原住民一員名額者原住民人口應計入之"},{"start":3273.598,"end":3299.997,"text":"就是現在黑黑的,在螢幕上那個黑黑的但該縣市無原住民議員名額者是個嗎?但該縣市無原住民議員名額者,原住民人口應記入之。應記入之就好了是不是?後面的不要?應記入之?你講你講"},{"start":3301.721,"end":3316.166,"text":"二、建議那個但書的部分完整的文字是不是但依第二目規定計算無原住民議員名額者原住民人口應記錄之。把條文"},{"start":3317.628,"end":3344.885,"text":"你們有準備好那個條文嗎?有,那我跟大家解釋一下就是說原住民的議員名額目前依各位委員的版本是1500名就算嘛齁那但是如果沒有達到1500名的時候呢他的人口總數要記錄原來的縣市人口總數來算變成說可能是區域來選意思是這樣子他只是比較完整來代表原來有跟沒有山地原住民議員的部分"},{"start":3345.845,"end":3346.966,"text":"人口整數的計算方式。"},{"start":3360.547,"end":3368.21,"text":"單一第二目規定計算五原住民一元名額者原住民人口應計入職。第二目規定計算五原住民一元名額者原住民人口應計入職。"},{"start":3383.254,"end":3411.032,"text":"第二幕原住民一元名額有平地原住民人口在1500人以上者應有平地原住民選出之縣市一元名額有山地原住民人口在1500人以上者應有山地原住民選出之一元名額有山地鄉者應有山地原住民選出之縣議員名額無山地鄉之縣市山地原住民平地原住民人口數均未達1500人以上者且原住民人口數在1500人以上者應有原住民選出之一元名額"},{"start":3413.454,"end":3439.389,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：事由：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告"},{"start":3441.184,"end":3467.893,"text":"後面就一樣。或有三立相者應有三立原住民選出之一元民俄。後面部分沒變。另外合計的這個部分就是說沒有到達一千五三"},{"start":3471.38,"end":3474.884,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3488.632,"end":3508.964,"text":"我們來看下文字,我們再來看這個從開始原住民一元名額冒號是不是?是。然後有平地原住民人口在1500人以上則應由平地原住民選出這縣市一元名額,這個沒有問題嘛對不對?之一元名額。之一元名額。縣市拿掉。對。"},{"start":3510.645,"end":3518.992,"text":"選出之議員名額有三地原住民人口在一千五百人以上者。"},{"start":3524.164,"end":3550.744,"text":"以上或有三地鄉者應有三地原住民選出之縣議員。無三地鄉的縣市三地原住民平地原住民人口數均為達1500人以上者且原住民人口數在1500人以上者。"},{"start":3554.828,"end":3556.728,"text":"因有原住民選出之議員名額。"},{"start":3581.328,"end":3585.709,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3600.043,"end":3611.516,"text":"對,那另外也有考慮說對於類似像加勢對於這個議長的選舉可能有一些不預期的一些變數等等是不是把它單純化"},{"start":3618.916,"end":3620.136,"text":"條文修正草案案案例"},{"start":3640.652,"end":3641.112,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":3661.015,"end":3689.422,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,除了剛講雲林,你說你已經達到了。這是在盡量去減少就是說,這個既然三眼平眼在這個地方都已經有超過1500人以上,就有原住民,他就不分三眼平眼,就有原住民的譯言。譬如說我不知道未來,未來不知道是誰哪個地方,譬如說嘉義市,我舉個例子,嘉義市"},{"start":3692.023,"end":3696.872,"text":"條文修正草案案件事宜等19人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案案件事宜等19人分別擬具"},{"start":3703.846,"end":3732.713,"text":"我們請盧縣一委員和王美惠委員謝謝因為看到這個貨我想說改成集因為在高雄市的一個例子來說高雄市有三個原民鄉也就是桃園、納馬俠跟茂林我知道可是呢對都會區的原住民就不公平啊因為他本身就是住在都會區的三園卻沒有一席他其實人口是已經超過一千五遠遠超過那他只保障三個三個原鄉可是我們在都會區的原住民呢他們要他們的"},{"start":3733.733,"end":3736.695,"text":"服務範圍非常廣,所以應該這個是要改成集。主席,在此我要向我們審判單位探討一下,因為你們的資料及本身我就是在家裡持,所以在我們全台灣來看,配合金門連江,"},{"start":3759.059,"end":3765.808,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具"},{"start":3776.448,"end":3784.798,"text":"本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具"},{"start":3795.543,"end":3804.268,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事由：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案案件事由：立法院朝野黨團擬具"},{"start":3822.193,"end":3822.613,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":3840.663,"end":3841.264,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":3857.299,"end":3886.53,"text":"我來補充一下美會委員的說法我們來看一下紅字的這個意思紅字的這個意思就是說在都會區裡面他並沒有原住民鄉山地原住民鄉但是呢在沒有山地原住民鄉的都會區的原住民的人口不管是山園或平原加起來有達到1500個人以上他們就可以互選一名議員的意思"},{"start":3887.23,"end":3887.792,"text":"條文修正草案 案"},{"start":3895.711,"end":3905.718,"text":"條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告"},{"start":3917.305,"end":3920.328,"text":"三、委員徐富癸等19人分別擬具〈地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":3938.865,"end":3939.665,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":3954.511,"end":3977.725,"text":"三地原住民或平地原住民他們個別都沒有選出人的時候他們可以互相選那麼那個統稱叫做原住民議員所以你如果紅色這個字拿掉的話這個部分就完全沒有被保障到了對不對好不好謝謝秦美惠對不起美惠那個吳立華委員有舉手然後待會再美惠委員謝謝"},{"start":3979.926,"end":3981.528,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":3996.283,"end":4024.759,"text":"條文修正草案‧連江嘉義等18人擬具他目前要達到這個紅色條文的一個目標是可能還有一段距離但是未來是有可能這個部分因為既然以前滿1500人都可以有平原所以我們才會去處理山地原住民如果滿1500人也應該要有自己的山園那也既然如此未來如果說加起來總"},{"start":4025.9,"end":4033.863,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4049.451,"end":4078.293,"text":"條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併"},{"start":4079.298,"end":4086.743,"text":"二、委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具〈地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":4089.62,"end":4099.887,"text":"可在該住民的所在去簽約,因為北省有款他去簽這個補考的選項,他跟查法規的局可以相為該住民的機關,該住民的機關有可能去變動及議期,以及一定的選舉。所以那時候我開會的時候,我就是有兩種,"},{"start":4119.898,"end":4121.159,"text":"條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":4147.708,"end":4175.745,"text":"條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及"},{"start":4177.344,"end":4199.191,"text":"所以在這裏面,抱歉,那時候所以我地裏面的公務情策部會覺得說有意見的我也要講W加其企業未來,我也要講跟你們我們找出最好的辦法來,因為我剛才說的說所有這裏面的聯盟配合"},{"start":4204.978,"end":4206.899,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4234.072,"end":4254.203,"text":"條文修正草案案例846跟444加起來是1290所以他其實要達到1500的時候都是幾百票我都理解你的說法所以這個部分待會也能不能請行政單位來做一些回應或者是如何杜絕防範這個部分好不好我們繼續請陳秀寶"},{"start":4258.74,"end":4259.361,"text":"一等16人擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條"},{"start":4282.5,"end":4283.201,"text":"徐富癸等18人擬具徐富癸等18人擬具"},{"start":4300.615,"end":4301.836,"text":"事由：立法院朝野黨團協商．事由：立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":4325.82,"end":4342.757,"text":"好 謝謝我們這個請行政單位來回應一下因為目前來講可能每會比較擔憂的因為好像數據來說加疫是的確是級距非常的小那你們會有什麼樣的因應防範措施還是怎麼樣請部長謝謝"},{"start":4344.739,"end":4344.819,"text":"桑美芬議員"},{"start":4360.515,"end":4361.076,"text":"條文修正草案案案例"},{"start":4376.554,"end":4397.627,"text":"報告一、一千五百人人口是原住民的話就會有一席原住民的議員不管他是山地或者是山園或者是平原那在我們計算這個總人口數的時候他就必須要扣除掉然後再去計算非原住民的議員的名額"},{"start":4400.249,"end":4424.925,"text":"但是因為我們希望可以把高金委員所主張的外加的部分加進去所以我們就從善如流把所有的每個縣市的所有議員的名額維持在111年在各位的這張大表裡面所以如果你增加出來的原住民的議員的名額沒有超過這個總額的話都可以算進去"},{"start":4425.725,"end":4427.407,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4441.101,"end":4441.821,"text":"條文修正草案案例"},{"start":4462.429,"end":4469.375,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具 «地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制度法第三十三條條"},{"start":4487.096,"end":4495.847,"text":"事由：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具"},{"start":4507.02,"end":4511.903,"text":"現在要修的,因為你有可能這個如果沒有刪掉,我自己的未來,有可能給一席啦。不過現在就是說,選議長的選舉,在我自己當局以來,都差不多一席在那裡競選議長啦。"},{"start":4530.753,"end":4543.935,"text":"會因為有人操弄去叫人加入這裡現在叫一個官組員出來選一定會中的因為一部席一隻席啊所以那席會應用到加入市議會議長的選舉這樣啦不對嗎我現在是這麼擔憂這樣因為可以"},{"start":4558.78,"end":4566.886,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事由：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院司法及法制兩委員會報告"},{"start":4569.948,"end":4570.929,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":4599.316,"end":4617.129,"text":"委員我聽到你的意思,但是我要跟你講的部分就是說,我們本來是以高金素梅到吳立法版本的時候,你看這張圖裡面,裡面是23加0啦但是如果把這個加上去的話,假設說在你們現在人口是1290嘛,可能再有210個人的話就變成23加1啦"},{"start":4621.972,"end":4622.773,"text":"二、委員徐富癸等18人擬具"},{"start":4819.099,"end":4820.08,"text":"條文修正草案案案例"},{"start":4845.546,"end":4847.955,"text":"三、委員徐富癸等18人"},{"start":4849.693,"end":4869.376,"text":"主要拜託我不是對原住民沒禮貌喔主要拜託原住民就來跟議員選舉我這位議員會選舉給他一千十八出頭的一個做四檔的議員的合理什麼都不要講合幅都不要講一個可以變跟議員的議長會選舉"},{"start":4879.232,"end":4882.675,"text":"三、委員徐富癸等18人擬具〈地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":4906.007,"end":4917.279,"text":"條文修正草案案案件,則二、委員徐富癸等19人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案案件,則二、委員徐富癸等19人分別擬具"},{"start":4930.287,"end":4955.232,"text":"美惠議員我再提醒你一下齁縱使這兩個不加在一起齁有心人要操作齁其實他在山園或是平原那邊在增加席次他也會出現這樣子的問題所以他依然沒有辦法他依然沒有辦法解決你的就是說會影響到議長選舉的問題啦但是主席在這兩天齁他如果不要加下去齁你說"},{"start":4957.072,"end":4959.234,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":4979.744,"end":4995.128,"text":"二、委員徐富癸等18人擬具 «地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5006.067,"end":5006.988,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5033.291,"end":5040.634,"text":"二、委員林佑昌部長等19人分別擬具〈地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":5052.365,"end":5066.957,"text":"文匯委員其實你的擔憂你的顧慮稍微我都聽懂我們站場的大家都聽懂但是我還是必須要先釐清楚一件事情第一件事情如果有人要刻意操作他依然都可以操作"},{"start":5067.897,"end":5073.859,"text":"二、委員徐富癸等18人擬具 «地方制度法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5096.684,"end":5120.501,"text":"但是我始終認為這是兩個議題,如果真的是有人要有心操作,其實你這麼一講他馬上就要去操作了。846人那一塊,846人那總不能因為就是擔心加一加,然後我們其他都會區的這個原住民的這個權益就會被剝奪,所以美惠你再考慮一下好不好?"},{"start":5122.082,"end":5137.116,"text":"我們先保留我們先保留然後來第三幕來謝謝請宣讀第三幕離島議員名額離島議員名額有離島鄉且該鄉人口在2500人以上者應有該鄉選出之縣議員名額"},{"start":5146.927,"end":5172.214,"text":"現在因為離島議員的部分現在離島縣有一些像北甘、白沙跟列嶼它是依照它的人口數本島跟離島的人口的比例來做依照目前像白沙、北甘、列嶼它有兩席"},{"start":5172.914,"end":5196.033,"text":"分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案案 案例一等16人擬具:「地方制度法部分條文修正草案 案例一等16人擬具:「地方制度法部分條文修正草案 案例一等16人擬具:「地方制度法部分條文修正草案 案例一等16人擬具:「地方制度法部分條文修正草案 案例一等16人擬具:「地方制度法部分條文修正草案 案例一等16人擬具:「地方制度法部分條文修正草案 案例一等16人擬具:「地方制度法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":5199.482,"end":5202.906,"text":"一前二目規定計算之名額內應有該鄉選出之議員名額。"},{"start":5217.979,"end":5221.28,"text":"我維持內涵的意思"},{"start":5258.975,"end":5265.197,"text":"條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":5274.746,"end":5290.481,"text":"第二幕鄉鎮市有平地原住民人口在1500人以上者,應有平地原住民選出之鄉鎮市民代表名額。山地鄉以外之鄉鎮市有山地原住民人口在1500人以上者,應有山地原住民選出之鄉鎮市民代表名額。"},{"start":5292.454,"end":5319.716,"text":"文字兄弟有沒有意見?行政單位因為這個是改裁外加的概念那剛剛有報告有部分的鄉鎮可能會減少很多的席次所以我們建議還是維持內涵的精神那這個粗製的部分是不是可以刪除哪一個可以刪除?粗的、黑的、長黑的山地鄉以外的鄉鎮那個主要是姊姊主動的"},{"start":5324.36,"end":5325.641,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5333.243,"end":5360.668,"text":"第二章那個寫鄉證的那個部分請各位看一下如果採取外加的話像黃色的部分屏東縣的滿洲鄉花林的富里跟秀林他依照他目前的人口都不到1500可是他有一席如果改採外加他不到1500他馬上這一席"},{"start":5365.418,"end":5369.959,"text":"徐富癸等18人擬具徐富癸等18人擬具徐富癸等18人擬具"},{"start":5392.796,"end":5418.847,"text":"光復、台東卑南等原來有六席,如果一千五一席,馬上由六席減成一席,其他部分也減少很多。因此,因為代表部分改採外加,有這種大幅減少的情況,所以我們建議說,這個部分還是不做修正。"},{"start":5421.86,"end":5439.317,"text":"那個如果要去解決剛才會減少那個部分如果要維持這個條文文字那然後也要解決剛才那個問題有沒有辦法改那怎麼改應該是朝這個方向去改啊"},{"start":5442.299,"end":5457.387,"text":"二、跟委員報告因為現在代表的這個席次的產生是原住民跟非原住民是以他人口的比例來計算他原民跟非原民的席次"},{"start":5457.927,"end":5472.257,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商．事由：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案．事由：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告協商．事由．一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告協商．事由．一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告協商．事由．一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告協商．事由．一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員"},{"start":5482.244,"end":5483.265,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":5497.973,"end":5521.789,"text":"我的意見跟鄭委員一樣因為上次這個是我那個修正動議的條文啦我就是因為看那個大院審查情形他說如果我這樣子會弄到非原住民代表減少17席我是覺得影響很大所以我自己也但是就是跟鄭委員的意思一樣其實我們其實都是為了要去解決"},{"start":5522.83,"end":5525.21,"text":"條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":5548.575,"end":5571.384,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。到底要怎麼做?這個可能是不是內政部有辦法可以想得到?謝謝。好,這樣好不好?我們第二幕也暫時保留一下,大家來及時廣映一下。接著下來第三項。第三、第四、第五、第六、第七都沒有保留嗎?所以現在我們回過頭來,所以第二幕"},{"start":5576.66,"end":5597.837,"text":"條文修正草案案的第二目和第三款的第二目。主席,我們是不是休息三分鐘?我正要休息三分鐘,讓徐首相跟大家討論一下。好,謝謝。"},{"start":5601.994,"end":5617.027,"text":"有準備便當還沒吃便當的人可以吃還對來我們剛剛鄉鎮民代表後面還有一個要要加上一段捏加上一段來你要剛我所說的111年那個要那個那個東西要放到這裡面來"},{"start":5618.653,"end":5619.373,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5648.592,"end":5649.292,"text":"條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":6428.418,"end":6429.359,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":6454.289,"end":6458.33,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告"},{"start":6477.814,"end":6481.615,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商．事由：立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":6495.679,"end":6517.891,"text":"兩個字我覺得有點錯愕就是說因為剛開始就是說如果我們現在沒有三元現在本來有平原那今天有三元之後他們可以投以自己的族類去投那如果沒有的話他們會被迫投給區域我聽到被迫這兩個字其實我受傷了一下但其實以我們來講我們在服務我們是都沒有分的"},{"start":6518.251,"end":6518.571,"text":"三、委員徐富癸等18人擬具"},{"start":6538.211,"end":6539.091,"text":"條文修正草案案案例"},{"start":6557.921,"end":6580.112,"text":"謝謝,謝謝協法委員的提示,其實我剛剛講被迫這兩個字,是我們的族人轉述給我的,那個不管是投給區域的立委也好,或者是山園投給平原,平原投給山園,他們好像總是有這個,覺得好像有一點點,我們來修正一下,我也會提醒我的族人,我們的修正以後不再用這種字,好嗎?謝謝你的提醒,好。"},{"start":6580.592,"end":6596.617,"text":"我們現在趕快回歸到我們現在剛剛的第二幕的部分美會委員所擔心的剛剛大家集思廣立了一下美會委員你要不要有一些你的看法跟提議主席謝謝給我第三遍的發言感謝因為我覺得我的擔憂因為我也不能去應用到人們的管理"},{"start":6605.66,"end":6606.161,"text":"條文修正草案案案例"},{"start":6625.459,"end":6626.2,"text":"條文修正草案案例"},{"start":6640.976,"end":6645.778,"text":"條文修正草案案 案 兩稱一雙,因為我們大部分是官組委員會簽約的,還是三地會簽約的一個議員,我們兩個加起來,我覺得應該是一、兩稱的,我覺得很適當,我拜託我們的主席"},{"start":6663.867,"end":6687.976,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案案案案件事上,我們真的有非常多的族人都已經移居到都市來了。那為了解決我們這個美會委員的疑慮,我們也不希望一下子就把這個擬具調得那麼近。所以其實呢,昭偉我還有剛剛跟其他的委員、原住民的委員還有這個"},{"start":6689.737,"end":6705.707,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等21人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告"},{"start":6713.932,"end":6721.04,"text":"條文修正草案：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人分別擬具"},{"start":6725.168,"end":6727.07,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6750.091,"end":6750.452,"text":"文修正草案案例"},{"start":6762.432,"end":6765.313,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件"},{"start":6791.94,"end":6817.953,"text":"條文修正草案案 案 第四項的部分原來的文字拿掉然後我們加上剛剛行政部門給我們列的紅色的這個文字請在場的委員看一下 包委員還有什麼意見葉木的部分是不是加幾個文字因為你要加在哪裡第二行的第二行鄉鎮"},{"start":6820.49,"end":6835.26,"text":"相正室有平地原住民人口在一千五百人以上者,然後加於前目總額內應有平地原住民選出之相正室民代表平額,也就是說維持原來的內涵。"},{"start":6840.219,"end":6866.42,"text":"第二行在1500人以上者的後面是嗎?於前目總額內應有平地原住民選出之鄉鎮市民代表名額。秀出紅字的部分是剛剛加上去的,請在場的委員看一下。"},{"start":6871.585,"end":6873.267,"text":"這是現行條文的文字。"},{"start":6891.763,"end":6911.338,"text":"文修正草案案 案。第二幕,鄉鎮市有平地原住民人口在1500人以上者。"},{"start":6913.186,"end":6934.825,"text":"以前某種額內應有平地原住民選出這鄉鎮市民代表名額。第四項,原來的修正條文的那個整個文字拿掉,然後放入現在紅色的文字,請大家看一下。"},{"start":6942.438,"end":6953.148,"text":"條文的文字是本法中華民國某年某月某日修正之條文施行後,依第二項規定計算之縣市區議員名額多於111年11月26日選出名額者。"},{"start":6959.313,"end":6975.4,"text":"選出名額者,除離島縣人口多於111年5月31日之人口五千以上,其餘縣市人口多於四萬以上者外,"},{"start":6976.689,"end":6997.1,"text":"以111年11月26日選出名額為其名額,不適用第二項的規定,也就是說111年11月26日選出的名額為準,如果多的話,除了離黨他在多於111年5月30日選舉前半年的這個數字"},{"start":7001.311,"end":7015.759,"text":"多出五千人,這五千是目前最低擬具的人口數,多五千的話,多一席的一員。那離島的這個部分,如果他人口有多出五千的話,可以多出一席。"},{"start":7016.619,"end":7043.149,"text":"案。另外其他縣市的部分如果有多出四萬的話可以增加一席。這個也就是目前四十萬到八十萬擬具的部分每增加四萬可以增加一席的一員。那如果他沒有增加的情況就維持一百一十一年十二月二十六日選出的名額,也就是名額不會改變。以上說明。好,請問一下園民會,你們聽到這有沒有什麼意見?"},{"start":7045.498,"end":7046.439,"text":"條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":7077.221,"end":7084.844,"text":"條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團擬具"},{"start":7094.807,"end":7095.267,"text":"文修正草案案。協商結論"},{"start":7118.095,"end":7135.172,"text":"一、委員盧縣一等16人提案增訂第四條之一、第八十三條之九至第八十三條之十一不予增訂。二、第八十三條之二、第八十三條之三及第八十三條之七均維持現行條文不予修正。三、第三十三條照協商條文通過。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7138.612,"end":7139.233,"text":"條文修正草案"}]}},{"id":"16070","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16070","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609d56277c358e1b52dad9f551ce5fa921f4f242ceca957783912fbd1b2b36c2b065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-05T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T18:55:00+08:00","duration":37485,"影片長度":"10:24:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 - 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,"text":"在臺灣,詐騙就如同一場瘟疫,籠罩在我們的生活中,不但完全沒有終止的跡象,而且越來越嚴重。過去這幾年來,政府喊了相當多的打詐口號,但是根據警政署的統計,2020年臺灣詐騙的案件涉案金額為42.5億。"},{"start":2397.313,"end":2399.695,"text":"到了2021年變成了56億。2022年的69.5億。到了2023年直接成長到88億。年年增長。然而這些數字只是有報案的數字。根據全球反詐聯盟GASA統計"},{"start":2420.211,"end":2420.913,"text":"台灣2022年到2023年之間因為詐騙財產損失已經高達2000億。"},{"start":2430.25,"end":2449.104,"text":"﹚台幣將近全年GDP產值的1%,我們政府是在騎U-Bike,詐騙集團早就在開特斯拉了,打詐的成績完全跟不上詐騙的速度。根據警政署的資料,2023年"},{"start":2451.363,"end":2458.207,"text":"詐欺案件發生數為38000多件,較前年增加8314件,增加了28.17%。"},{"start":2465.154,"end":2484.425,"text":"破獲數36000多件破獲率高達95%這是大家對於詐騙的認知嗎?這是一般民眾對於詐騙的認知嗎?警政署公布這麼高的破案率政府對外宣稱"},{"start":2485.405,"end":2508.896,"text":"打詐已經有了成效,卻沒有追根究柢,永遠也彌平不了人民的血淚與損失。詐騙的首腦依舊逍遙法外,百姓依舊徬徨無助。除了查緝以外,從源頭杜絕詐騙的管道更是重中之重,尤其網路詐騙已經成為詐騙主要的手段。"},{"start":2513.398,"end":2535.876,"text":"數位部應該扛起重大責任為人民把關,而不是面線點得到,打詐騙卻打不到。數位部在2022年成立以來,2022年正是詐騙金額成長最高的一年,多麼的諷刺。"},{"start":2536.997,"end":2540.738,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員的發言。接下來請登記第4號徐宇貞委員發言。"},{"start":2576.926,"end":2599.519,"text":"主席、各位官員、還有各位媒體先進。大家早。流氓民進黨輸不起,荒唐行徑再破紀錄。國會改革無法通過之後,民進黨賴清德輸不起,無法接受非綠民意在立法院行使調查權,先是讓行政院提出復議,再史無前例地讓四個單位提出釋憲。"},{"start":2601.394,"end":2620.386,"text":"如今還想展開遍地風火式的罷免先是抹黑本席所提的公職人員選罷法的修正案希望能夠把罷免票數高於當選票數的修法提案回顧第10屆立法院選罷法修法的提案的狀況現任的立委郭國文、賴瑞榮"},{"start":2621.226,"end":2647.146,"text":"都有提出跟我一模一樣的版本就是修正第九十條當時民進黨的柯建民總召還有時任民進黨團幹事長的劉世芳現任的我們的部長都公開的表示應該要檢討修正罷免制度還強調罷免門檻有必要提高並慎重考慮是否有必要維持民意代表可被罷免的制度"},{"start":2648.347,"end":2673.493,"text":"這幾年罷免案經常發生,這與低門檻的罷免制度設計有很大的關係。雖說罷免制度可以讓民眾有機會下架不適任的公職人員,但是我們必須要警惕罷免制度淪為有心人政治鬥爭和政治報復的工具。民主制度需要健全的機制來保護,而不是任由罷免被濫用。"},{"start":2675.514,"end":2692.144,"text":"2016 2016年選罷法修正後的罷免制度已經形成罷免比當選容易的畸形制度。罷免門檻偏低,除了會變相鼓勵罷免,讓敗選的一方容易操作罷免,成為選舉的延長賽。"},{"start":2694.696,"end":2710.926,"text":"先是選舉罷免再補選不利於民主良善的發展更耗費國家社會的資源因此才會不分黨派紛紛提出罷免門檻的修正案昨天內政委員會高金素梅召委"},{"start":2711.406,"end":2736.788,"text":"排定審查選罷法。但民進黨團在柯敬明總召的帶領下一早就霸佔了內政委員會的會議室,杯葛議事運作,沒收我們議案討論的權利,甚至搶奪議事人員的議事路,軟禁我們的議事人員,限制人身的自由。民進黨為了私利玩法弄權,成了名符其實的民進"},{"start":2737.762,"end":2759.613,"text":"民主進步黨我要問賴清德這就是你想要的立法院只要民進黨不同意什麼法案都不能過嗎?什麼法案都要黨嗎?現在是民主獨裁的時刻嗎?我要呼籲賴清德不要再搞惡意杯葛限制人身自由請理性務實面對選辦法的手法不要讓少數否決多數"},{"start":2765.05,"end":2788.464,"text":"謝謝徐議政委員的發言接下來請登記第5號羅志強委員發言高齡杯哥民進黨看到了嗎?"},{"start":2789.847,"end":2815.995,"text":"蔡英文承諾的12萬戶社會住宅賴清德8年都蓋不完而獨居老人過去8年暴增250%別讓台灣出現高齡杯哥蔡英文在2016年上任前承諾蓋12萬戶社會住宅而當我跟內政部詢問未來社宅完工規劃時"},{"start":2817.984,"end":2827.524,"text":"內政部非常誠實說到2031年涵蓋已經完工的3萬戶總共能夠完工的就是10.2萬戶"},{"start":2829.79,"end":2845.939,"text":"白紙黑字告訴我們即便賴清德再當兩任總統到2031年都沒有辦法完成蔡英文所承諾的12萬戶社會住宅而賴清德總統還加碼8年要蓋25萬戶"},{"start":2848.519,"end":2866.553,"text":"社宅興建緩慢高齡化加速房價物價居高不下的時候首當其衝就是高齡長者的居住權跟生存權。過去8年我國65歲以上長者居住社會住宅的比例從5.46%增加到12.83%"},{"start":2874.034,"end":2890.803,"text":"獨居長者這個宅數的比例從4.09成長到10.25分別漲幅是2.35倍跟2.5倍這些數據都告訴我們落實高齡者居住正義是非常重要也迫切的"},{"start":2892.011,"end":2914.6,"text":"引髮族不一定是經濟弱勢但現實生活就是許多長者常常有錢也租不到房子因為房東可能認為長者經濟收入不穩定或者怕長者在住處往生影響房價但根據住宅法第25條第二項制定的內政部新辦社會住宅出租辦法11條規定"},{"start":2916.423,"end":2939.411,"text":"社會住宅租賃跟續租最長為12年,如果65歲長者曾租社會住宅,12年後接近80歲的高齡,依照現行法規就要被趕出去。80歲不只是經濟無法負擔一般房租,即便是負擔了也沒有力氣搬家,沒有力氣適應新環境,這就是所謂的高齡杯葛。"},{"start":2940.356,"end":2964.938,"text":"因此這次修法羅志強主張修改住宅法25條規定要解開現行法規社會住宅最多只能住12年的硬上限對65歲以上長者成豬社會住宅時應該要延長租賃跟續租期限避免高齡杯葛所以希望我們的民進黨政府可以廣納這一條善言謝謝"},{"start":2970.391,"end":2977.747,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員的發言。報告院會現在登記國是論壇發言的委員均已發言完畢。現在休息。"},{"start":5310.93,"end":5313.217,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5462.048,"end":5475.499,"text":"報告議員會,我們現在繼續開會。請秘書長報告出席人數。報告議員會出席委員57人以足法定人數。我們現在開會進行報告事項。請秘書長宣讀第一會期第二十次會議意思錄。"},{"start":5477.99,"end":5485.798,"text":"宣讀立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議．事由．時間。．中華民國113年6月28日上午9時1分至9時14分時時至10時21分下午2時30分至4時29分。．7月2日上午9時1分至10時29分下午2時30分至4時6分。．"},{"start":5497.813,"end":5511.868,"text":"地點、本院議場、出席委員、吳委員、立法等113人、內席官員、行政院院長、卓榮泰等15人、主席院長韓國瑜、副院長江啟臣。報告施向第一案宣讀本院第11屆第1會期第19次會議適度決定、確定"},{"start":5515.373,"end":5521.279,"text":"第27、11至19、21至28、30至40、47至251案均決定交互相關委員會審查、處理或交互相關委員會。第8至10、20、29、46案均決定經報讀與相關提案並按協商。"},{"start":5534.031,"end":5560.248,"text":"第43至44案均決定同意撤為第252至263、265至267案為內政委員會等所提示報告案。第264案決定展延審查期限。第268案為行政院函送本院委員提案之原處情形。執行事項甲,行政院答案部分一件,與本院委員執行部分五件。對行政院院長報告施政方針"},{"start":5562.29,"end":5579.546,"text":"繼續質詢,決定下次會議進行交通組織執行,宣讀完畢。報言會針對第一會期第20次會議意思錄並無委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處,我們作以下的決定。第一會期第20次的會議意思錄確定,請宣讀第二案。"},{"start":5580.27,"end":5599.94,"text":"第二案（本院委員林月琴等10千人鄰居身心障礙者權益保障法第53條條維修證草案請審議案（財修委員會見臨時委員會交社會福利及優先環境委員會審查（宣布完畢第三案（本院委員何欣淳等10千人鄰居勞工保險條0058條條維修證草案請審議案（財修委員會見臨時委員會交社會福利及優先環境委員會審查（宣布完畢"},{"start":5606.644,"end":5630.774,"text":"第四案,本院委員何欣淳等17人離聚,勞工退休金條例第24條條文修正草案請水印案。陳修緣會議見,理事院會將用社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查,宣言完畢。第五案,本院委員何欣淳等17人離聚,勞動基準法第53條條文修正草案請水印案。陳修緣會議見,理事院會將用社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查,宣言完畢。"},{"start":5632.214,"end":5633.915,"text":"第六案．第七案．第八"},{"start":5660.353,"end":5662.595,"text":"第八案．第九案．第九案．"},{"start":5683.797,"end":5700.127,"text":"第十案本院委員範圍短時間的領據親駐民權以保證把草案情勢迎案。求求院會見您請院會將內政委員會審查。宣言完畢。報告院會報告事項第十案現有民進黨黨團提案提議近乎二讀與相關提案並按協商請問院會有異議"},{"start":5703.138,"end":5704.879,"text":"第11案第12案第12案"},{"start":5730.589,"end":5752.225,"text":"第13案本院委員陳慶慧等18人聯聚,宣新障礙者權益保障法第53條條文修正的草原侵水一案。陳修委員會見理事委員會將用社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。宣告完畢。第14案本院委員陳慶慧等17人聯聚,就業保障法第10條第11條及第19條之3條文修正的草原侵水一案。"},{"start":5752.965,"end":5778.944,"text":"陳秀園會見：內政委員會審查：宣傳完畢第15案北院委員吳佩儀等16人聯聚新住民權益保障法草案情緒一案陳秀園會見：內政委員會審查：宣傳完畢報告院會報告事項第15案現有民進黨黨團提禁服二讀與相關提案閉案協商請問院會有異議沒有異議通過下案"},{"start":5779.414,"end":5803.55,"text":"第16案 北洋委員陳雪山等二選人連續離島牽涉條例增立第7條至1條文草案情緒一案。陳旭委員會屆立行委會將經濟委員會審查宣讀完畢。報告委員會報告事項第16案現由民進黨黨團提議退回陳旭委員會重新提出請問委員會有異議?無異議通過下一案國民黨團各黨團有沒有異議?"},{"start":5806.004,"end":5809.906,"text":"五一通過下案五一通過下案五一通過下案"},{"start":5831.098,"end":5852.784,"text":"第19案 本月委員陳學生的23人離聚有限廣播電視法第10條條文修正草案請審議案。陳修緣會見臨行會交交通委員會審查。宣布完畢。第20案 本月委員陳學生的23人離聚衛星廣播電視法第5條條文修正草案請審議案。陳修緣會見臨行會交交通委員會審查。宣布完畢。"},{"start":5854.184,"end":5877.213,"text":"第21案本院委員陳雪生的16人鄰居,社會福利基本法第18條條文修正財運情勢一案。陳修園會見列行委會交用社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查,宣布完畢。第22案本院委員陳雪生的16人鄰居,長期照顧服務法第14條條文修正財運情勢一案。陳修園會見列行委會交用社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查,宣布完畢。"},{"start":5878.573,"end":5900.746,"text":"第23案本月委員陳學生等16人理據緊急醫療救護法第23條條文修憲草原請選一案。陳修緣會接連行會交社會福利修憲環境委員會審查 宣言完畢第24案本月委員賴瑞龍等16人理據職務閃聊事法草原請選一案。陳修緣會接連行會交經濟委員會審查 宣言完畢"},{"start":5901.226,"end":5904.949,"text":"第25案（本院委員陳培宇等16人離聚,情勢訴訟法第101條11條維修政策請審議案。才修委員會見臨時委員會交交司法計劃,修委員會審查,宣言完畢"},{"start":5925.475,"end":5928.196,"text":"無異通過下一案．第27案．無異通過下一案．第28案．無異通過下一案．"},{"start":5948.564,"end":5963.011,"text":"報告委員會報告事項第28案現有民進黨黨團提議退回程序委員會重新提出請問委員會有異議沒有異議通過下一案本會本案退回程序委員會重新提出下一案"},{"start":5963.424,"end":5986.389,"text":"第29案（本委員羅廷維等20人聯聚外送平台管理機從業人員權益保障法草案侵水一案（財修委員會借年期委員會加入社會福利優先環境委員會審查,宣布完畢。第30案（本委員王玉敏等16人聯聚環境影響評估法第5條條無修正草案侵水一案（財修委員會借年期委員會加入社會福利優先環境委員會審查,宣布完畢。"},{"start":5987.589,"end":6010.61,"text":"第31案．委員王玉敏等16人聯聚外送平臺管理機從業人員權益保障法草案請選一案．修園會見您請回家後社會福利及外生環境委員會審查。宣告完畢。第32案．委員廖偉翔等16人聯聚學生福濤法部分條文修正草案請選一案．修園會見您請回家後消費及文化委員會審查。宣告完畢。"},{"start":6012.051,"end":6012.852,"text":"無異議通過下議案"},{"start":6025.558,"end":6050.057,"text":"第34案本院臺灣民眾黨黨團聯聚外送平台管理機從業人員權益保障法草案請審議案。陳秀元會見您請回家用社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣布外幣。第35案本院臺灣民眾黨黨團聯聚身心專業者權益保障法第53條條文修憲草案請審議案。陳秀元會見您請回家用社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣布外幣。"},{"start":6051.278,"end":6062.202,"text":"第三十六案（北院臺灣民眾黨黨團聯聚暫時領域發展條例第3條及第13條條維修正常性審議案．修委員會見．聯席委員會交交經濟委員會審查．宣布完畢。第三十七案．北院臺灣民眾黨黨團聯聚運動產業發展條例增立第7條之一及第7條之二條文草案勤審議案．修委員會見．聯席委員會交交交解文化委員會審查．宣布完畢。"},{"start":6076.807,"end":6098.381,"text":"第38案,委員臺灣民眾囊囊團聯聚,產業創新條例第30條條務修正草原清水因案,採取委員會見,臨時委員會加入經濟財政聯盟委員會審查,宣傳完畢。第39案,行政院海警宣映,國家語言研究發展重新修正條例草原案,採取委員會見,臨時委員會加入司法及法治教育及文化聯盟委員會審查,宣傳完畢。"},{"start":6099.742,"end":6119.143,"text":"第41屆九月涵送財政法人國防工業發展基金會一百十二年度決算書案﹐財政法人國防工業發展基金會一百十二年度決算書案、財政法人國防工業發展基金會一百十二年度決算書案、財政法人國防工業發展基金會一百十二年度決算書案、財政法人國防工業發展基金會一百十二年度決算書案、財政法人國防工業發展基金會一百十二年度決算書案、財政法人國防工業發展基金會一百十二年度決算書案、財政法人國防工業發展基金會一百十二年度決算書案、財政法人國防工業發展基金"},{"start":6122.466,"end":6142.162,"text":"第42案．國防部捍衛該部所屬113年度預算．迎接工程科目所需設備及投資．申請通知地域北京暨新台幣10億元．業經行政院主席總署同意備案．陳秀元會見理行會加外交及國防委員會．宣讀完畢第43案．國防部捍衛修正國防醫學院組織規程第五條條文．陳秀元會見理行會加外交及國防兩委員會．宣讀完畢"},{"start":6151.209,"end":6152.332,"text":"無異議通過下言。"},{"start":6161.274,"end":6180.713,"text":"第44案．中央選舉委員會海灣修正．中央選舉委員會編制表．常修委員會界臨行會交互司法及法治內政兩委員會．宣讀完畢。第45案．內政部海外廢止．國家公園管理處組織準則的20項法規及編制表．常修委員會界臨行會交互司法及法治內政兩委員會．宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6182.495,"end":6185.218,"text":"五一通過下議案五一通過下議案五一通過下議案"},{"start":6204.378,"end":6207.359,"text":"第40方案．第42海洋務員會海外修正海域環境分類及海洋環境品質標準．"},{"start":6225.908,"end":6245.078,"text":"第52、海洋務員會行為修正、海域環境監測集、監測轉設施辦法、財修委員會建立、請募集內政委員會、宣讀完畢。第51、海洋務員會行為海洋環境污染清除處理辦法、明宣修正委、海洋污染清除處理辦法並修正條文、財修委員會建立、請募集內政委員會、宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6248.55,"end":6250.513,"text":"五、一通過下一案五、一通過下一案"},{"start":6262.418,"end":6281.55,"text":"第53案,海洋委員會海灣修正,陸上污染原廢空水排放於特定海域許可辦法,柴州委員會見內勤會交內政委員會,宣讀完畢。厲通過下一案第54案,經濟部海灣修正工廠危險物品投保公共意外責任保險辦法,第三條及第六條條文,柴州委員會見內勤會交經濟委員會,宣讀完畢。厲通過下一案"},{"start":6285.692,"end":6294.375,"text":"第55案 經濟部海維修縣工廠危險物品申報本法第11條及第12條條文,採訊委員會見臨時委員會交經濟委員會,宣傳閉。第56案 經濟部海維修縣度量衡器指定實驗室篆刻管理本法第16條及第20條條文,採訊委員會見臨時委員會交經濟委員會,宣傳閉。"},{"start":6308.217,"end":6322.835,"text":"報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽席是苗栗縣我們私立九年文理短期補習班所有的同學歡迎大家來立法院我們掌聲鼓勵無疑通過下一案"},{"start":6323.496,"end":6330.622,"text":"第57案經濟部海外修正、礦業、規費、收費標準﹐陳秀元會見、聯席委員會、交通經濟委員會﹐宣讀完畢。第58案經濟部海外修正、自由貿易、港區事業、舒緩國外、英金和轉生貨品之機關名稱﹐陳秀元會見、聯席委員會、交通經濟委員會﹐宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6343.533,"end":6355.281,"text":"第59案．經濟部海外修正限制輸出貨品表﹐我國產制制158項鋼鐵貨品輸往歐盟採信管理措施﹐強修委員會見臨時會交經濟委員會﹐宣布完畢。第60案．經濟部海外修正商標規規收費標準﹐強修委員會見臨時會交經濟委員會﹐宣布完畢。"},{"start":6365.171,"end":6388.229,"text":"無異通過下議案．第61案．經濟牧海維修陣商標法施行性色不翻條文陳秀揚會見臨行會長經濟委員會宣布完畢．無異通過下議案．第62案．經濟牧海維修陣無風管供氣調節機容許耗用能源精準與能源效率分期標示事項方法及檢查方式第六點附圖一陳秀揚會見臨行會長經濟委員會宣布完畢．無異通過下議案．"},{"start":6391.331,"end":6404.095,"text":"第63案（經濟武漢送商標代理人登錄及管理辦法﹑程序委員會見﹑例行會加工經濟委員會﹑宣傳完畢第64案﹑經濟武漢修正臺紐經濟合作協定原產力說明書相關事項日經官名稱﹑程序委員會見﹑例行會加工經濟委員會﹑宣傳完畢"},{"start":6411.698,"end":6436.869,"text":"第65案經濟部委員本月第11屆第一會期第11次會議．一﹐要求民進黨執政的行政院旅行政治承諾﹐立即停止在莊濱工業區興建金頂焚化爐﹐簡送該部書面答覆﹐強修委員會建立協會加入經濟社會福利及衛生環境的兩委員會﹐宣讀完畢報告委員會本案由臺灣民眾黨黨團體改交審查本案交經濟社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查"},{"start":6438.55,"end":6440.132,"text":"下一案議員通過下一案"},{"start":6456.369,"end":6475.844,"text":"第67二,農業部行為行政院農業委員會,農田水利署,屏東管理處,農田水利事業區域,名稱修正為,農業部農田水利署,屏東管理處,農田水利事業區域,並修正事業區域,成修委員會見,立行會將經濟委員會宣布完畢。第68二,農業部行為修正農業部農田水利署,桃園管理處,農田水利設施範圍,成修委員會見,立行會將經濟委員會宣布完畢。"},{"start":6485.091,"end":6506.71,"text":"第69案 農業部海維修正農業部農田水利署苗栗管理署農田水利事業區域陳秀陽會見立行會長 經濟委員會 宣傳完畢無異通過下議案第70案 農業部海維修正委員神調獲經委委員王雲泉赴太平洋作業管理班發布分條文及地方條附件60附件9陳秀陽會見立行會長 經濟委員會 宣傳完畢無異通過下議案"},{"start":6509.833,"end":6522.589,"text":"第七十一案 農業貿易修正公告美國阿拉巴馬州、愛爾荷華州、猶他州、馬里蘭州、蒙特納州及賓夕法尼亞州為公民原性交情流行性感冒肺炎區財修委員會見,立行會將經濟委員會宣布完畢。"},{"start":6526.954,"end":6542.167,"text":"第72案,金融監督管理委員會還沒修正,公開發行公司建立內部控制制度處理準則部分條文,及證券及期貨市場各服務事業,建立內部控制制度處理準則第八條第十四條第39條條文,強修委員會見議請回交財政委員會,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6546.331,"end":6555.134,"text":"第73案﹚七種監督管理委員會函送本院增訂政卷投資信託及顧問法﹚第70條之一及第113條之一條文通過附帶決議及書面報告﹚陳修委員會及聯席委員會及財政委員會﹚宣布完畢。"},{"start":6565.034,"end":6585.457,"text":"第74案財政部含存房屋稅條例第5條及與第15條第一項第9會規定住家用房屋互出認定及申報責定辦法。財政委員會建議請回交財政委員會。宣讀完畢。財政委員會本案由臺灣民主黨黨團體改交審查。本案交財政委員會審查。下一案"},{"start":6586.018,"end":6602.618,"text":"第75案財稅部行為修正出家用粉無公自住及公益出租人出租使用任地標準。財稅委員會皆立行會交財政委員會。宣讀完畢。報言會本案由臺灣民眾黨黨團體改交審查。本案交財政委員會審查。下一案"},{"start":6603.154,"end":6624.532,"text":"第七十六案財政委員本月修正房屋稅條例部分條文通過負擔決議解送房屋稅條例修正券實施效益及成本稅收影響數、財源籌措及配套措施書面報告。財政委員會見立行會交財政委員會。稅讀完畢報告委員會本案由臺灣民眾黨黨團體改交審查本案交財政委員會審查下一案"},{"start":6624.98,"end":6653.555,"text":"第七十七案 教育部函送國民小學及國民中學正常教學讀導辦法 才修研會及理性化教育及文化委員會 宣讀完畢。第七十八案 教育部函為高級中等校學校特殊教育班班級及專責單位設置與人員經用辦法並修正為 高級中等校學校及幼兒園特殊教育班班級與專責單位設置及人員經用辦法並修正條文 才修研會及理性化教育及文化委員會"},{"start":6654.395,"end":6656.736,"text":"無異議通過下議案無異議通過下議案無異議通過下議案"},{"start":6681.624,"end":6701.971,"text":"第81案﹐秋東部海外交通部觀光局及所屬各國家風景區管理處﹐處理長巡國家及風景特地區範圍案件收費標準名稱修正為﹐秋東部觀光局及所屬各國家風景區管理處﹐處理長巡國家及風景特地區範圍案件收費標準﹐秋東部觀光局辦理觀光旅館及﹐"},{"start":6702.751,"end":6731.623,"text":"旅館等級評鑒收費標準名稱修正為﹐交通部觀光署辦理觀光旅館及旅館等級評鑒收費標準並修正條文﹐財修委員會見逆行匯交交通委員會﹐宣讀完畢﹐無異通過下一案﹐第82案﹐交通部海文採用國際海事組織所屬海洋環境防護委員會所采量MEPC.36079等三件防止船舶污染國際公約修正案﹐財修委員會見逆行匯交交通委員會﹐宣讀完畢﹐無異通過下一案﹐"},{"start":6731.963,"end":6756.076,"text":"第八十三案 勞動部海外修正 勞動部勞動基金運用局處規程 第六條 第八條及第十五條條文 採取委員會見 理事委員會加入司法及法律 社會福利及萬象環境委員會 宣讀完畢第八十四案 衛生福利部海外修正 應建立食品追溯 追蹤系統支持品業者 採取委員會見 理事委員會加入社會福利及萬象環境委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6756.676,"end":6778.588,"text":"報告委員會本案國民黨黨團體改交審查本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下一案第85案環境武漢送空氣中二氧化碳自動檢驗方法順槍順檢像儀法NI-EAA-459-210C強修委員會建立新華僑社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣禁完畢無語通過下一案"},{"start":6779.348,"end":6779.889,"text":"無異通過下一案"},{"start":6795.248,"end":6795.989,"text":"無異議通過下一案"},{"start":6817.722,"end":6838.413,"text":"第88案,密法務部函送,中華美國臺灣法務部調查局期前防事處與巴哈馬金融情報中心,為與涉及期前相關前置犯罪及資助恐怖主義金融情勢交換合作了解偏往路,我方淪陷之英文、日本及中日本銀本。陳秀揚會見。理事委員會交出司法及法治外交及國防勞委員會。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6839.053,"end":6844.536,"text":"無異議通過報告委員會第89案至252案請依序宣讀其中第91、92、94、96、214、217、236、242、251案臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查宣讀後"},{"start":6861.664,"end":6874.229,"text":"以上提案均改交相關委會審查。其餘的議案均照程序委員會意見通過。請問院會有無異議?沒有異議我們宣讀後通過。請宣讀。"},{"start":6875.216,"end":6891.694,"text":"第189案至第92案國家方向委員會﹚第93公平交易委員會﹚第94案至第99案經濟部﹚第100案核能安全委員會﹚第10案至第130案教育部﹚第131案至第14間文化部﹚第14方案至第180案國家科學及技術委員會﹚"},{"start":6892.515,"end":6893.736,"text":"第二百五十三案以下請一併宣讀"},{"start":6914.338,"end":6936.091,"text":"宣讀後均準與備查。請宣讀。第253案為本院社會福提供生環境外交及國防委員會函為院會教部選擇勞動部函送出印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解變化路之中英及印地文文本一本案。已經選擇完均準與備查並通過附帶決議二項。"},{"start":6939.053,"end":6964.595,"text":"第254案為本院教育及文化委員會函。委員會交付審查相關情勢命令,均已於立法院職權行使法第61條鎖定審查期限,執行事項及行政院答覆部分。前期面函送本院羅委員最強所提職勤間書面答覆供應件,以本院委員職勤部分,本院羅委員最強向行政院提出職勤供應件。宣讀完畢。報告委員會"},{"start":6966.427,"end":6983.013,"text":"憲法法庭來函通知本院就柯建民委員等51人申請案事先申請案等請本院委任訴訟代理人本案已定於上午11點在議場三樓進行黨團協商請各黨團幹部屆時至議場三樓出席現在休息"},{"start":7042.261,"end":7046.869,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7117.799,"end":7124.55,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7246.169,"end":7247.073,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7298.319,"end":7299.002,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7612.534,"end":7615.06,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7919.445,"end":7935.913,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7945.503,"end":7949.531,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7986.379,"end":7989.592,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8271.749,"end":8274.07,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8341.34,"end":8343.507,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8379.599,"end":8403.626,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":8682.5,"end":8689.002,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8717.067,"end":8718.452,"text":"主席"},{"start":9473.575,"end":9475.009,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9521.664,"end":9541.015,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10495.486,"end":10498.507,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10632.381,"end":10634.497,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13058.268,"end":13060.674,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13304.292,"end":13305.299,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13799.138,"end":13799.718,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19042.803,"end":19043.892,"text":"主席"},{"start":19269.855,"end":19275.759,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19611.937,"end":19615.213,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19849.599,"end":19853.166,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":20545.23,"end":20546.305,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":20883.812,"end":20885.839,"text":"主席"},{"start":20929.828,"end":20931.029,"text":"主席"},{"start":20960.626,"end":20974.599,"text":"報告委員會現在繼續開會,有關憲法法庭通知等案,現在我們進行臨時報告本案以完成朝野協商。請議事人員宣讀朝野黨團協商結論。"},{"start":20977.011,"end":20992.685,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論時間113年7月5日星期五上午11時地點異常三樓會議室決定事項一有關憲法法庭通知本院舊委員柯建明等51人行政院總統耐清德監察院等申請"},{"start":20993.826,"end":21008.324,"text":"案請本院推派代表、訴訟代理人及延遲辯論鑑定人。各黨團同意由國民黨黨團推薦二位,臺灣民眾黨黨團推薦一位擔任本次申請案含暫時處分部分之訴訟代理人。"},{"start":21009.332,"end":21031.415,"text":"本院機關代表：上述比例推派委員：有關推薦專家學者擔任延遲辯論鑑定人部分由國民黨黨團、臺灣民眾黨黨團各推薦一位。訴訟代理人名單請於7月5日下午4時,其他名單請於7月8日中午12時前送至法治局。"},{"start":21032.256,"end":21057.992,"text":"必憑辦理後續委任及呈報等相關事宜。主持人韓國瑜將啟程。協商代表柯建明、吳思瑤、莊瑞雄、傅坤祺、洪孟凱、林思敏、黃國昌、黃珊珊、吳春成。宣讀完畢。報告委員會,請問對以上朝野協商結論有無意義?沒有意義沒有意義沒有意義我們通過"},{"start":21060.53,"end":21083.003,"text":"113年7月5日朝野黨團協商結論,經決定如下。一、有關憲法法庭通知本院舊委員柯建民等51人,行政院、總統賴清德、監察院等申請案,請本院推派代表。"},{"start":21084.257,"end":21098.01,"text":"訴訟代理人及言辭辯論鑑定人各黨團同意由國民黨團推薦兩位臺灣民眾黨黨團推薦一位擔任本次申請案含暫時處分部分之訴訟代理人"},{"start":21099.414,"end":21121.193,"text":"本院機關代表依上述比例推派委員。有關推薦專家學者擔任延遲辯論鑑定人部分,由國民黨團、臺灣民眾黨黨團各推薦一位。訴訟代理人名單請於7月5日下午4時,其他名單於7月8日中午12時送至法治局。"},{"start":21122.202,"end":21132.77,"text":"我們辦理後續委任及呈報等相關事宜。報告委員會下午2點半我們繼續進行行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。我們現在休息。"},{"start":21601.363,"end":21611.672,"text":"報告院會現在繼續開會,對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。今天進行個人質詢、交通組織質詢。請羅委員自強質詢。議員掌聲"},{"start":21626.906,"end":21630.531,"text":"副院長有請行政院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21642.404,"end":21670.679,"text":"委員好所謂院長在我開始正式質詢之前我想先為我們的行政團隊你的行政團隊報個屈啦我覺得行政團隊昨天受到很大的羞辱我覺得身為行政院院長應該幫他們講講話昨天你知道發生什麼事嗎你說院內的事嗎對啊立法院發生什麼事立法院癱瘓了四個委員會啊你知道哪四個委員會被癱瘓嗎這我不清楚"},{"start":21671.243,"end":21697.063,"text":"你不清楚欸,院長不會吧?行政立法你今天到在對立法院負責,你的官員們在立法院基本上枯坐一整天,被癱瘓了四個委員會你都不知道?我不知道,我尊重院內在開會。你的肩膀還真是夠寬啊,連這麼重要的事都不知道。被癱瘓了內政、經濟、外交國防委員會,還有司法法治委員會。你知道為什麼被癱瘓嗎?"},{"start":21699.095,"end":21725.538,"text":"開會不順利是不是?開會不順利啊是因為民進黨的所有的立法委員跑去霸占內政委員會的主席台當然民進黨的委員有一些政治法案上的立場不同愛霸占就霸占這是民進黨傳統跟慣例那這個就算了不一定了這就算了啦昨天就發生了不一定昨天叫一定在你的字眼叫不一定在昨天叫一定"},{"start":21726.55,"end":21753.21,"text":"那我今天要告訴你民進黨的囂張跟跋扈在哪裡你知道嗎?不知道你如果因為說罷免選罷法修正案你不高興你不爽你要把內政委員會癱瘓那我想請問你昨天我們的外交國防委員會NCC法務部還有包括這個調查局的所有的單位對不對通傳會的單位"},{"start":21754.93,"end":21772.417,"text":"為什麼今天連外交國防委員會也要被癱瘓掉?講個道理出來嘛!那想請教你們的閣議員們在那邊因為王定宇落跑不主持會議結果呢搞到所有官員哭坐在那邊你不為他們覺得委屈嗎?"},{"start":21773.737,"end":21796.885,"text":"我們還是尊重院內開會的秩序不只是外交、國防、經濟委員會是一樣啊還有包括司法法治委員會是一樣我要這邊跟大家說跟院長說一件事情明明這三個委員會不管你們講任何政治主張你就算癱瘓內政委員會其實這三個委員會都不用賠帳"},{"start":21798.527,"end":21811.581,"text":"可是民進黨就是傳統囂張跋扈的文化嘛我今天要開會內政委員會我連當召委的王定宇可以繞跑當召委的鍾嘉斌可以繞跑當召委的邱怡婷可以繞跑"},{"start":21813.55,"end":21840.153,"text":"讓跑三人組嗎?然後讓官員們浪費時間,鑽個地方,官員很辛苦啊。我昨天就問我們法務部次長啊,洗錢防治法重不重要,請問院長。我先想問你嘛,洗錢防治法重不重要嘛。對嘛,都重要嘛。態度很正確啊。我也相信我們那時候出席的法務部次長,洗錢防治法一定準備很充分啊。"},{"start":21841.072,"end":21866.274,"text":"可是我上去質詢沒有主席無法質詢所以他不能上來回答這就是今天我要告訴你回頭還是這句話你民進黨要癱瘓內政委員會不要連累行政團隊的閣員我今天在這裡是因為你不願意幫他們報區我幫他們報區啊他們不是傀儡不是道具不是Galiana坐在那個地方欽差你民進黨立法院黨團糟蹋啦"},{"start":21867.495,"end":21867.895,"text":"報告委員該報區我會報區"},{"start":21897.915,"end":21905.24,"text":"三個委員,民進黨要看換內政委員會缺三個召委嗎?請問那三個召委責任是什麼在昨天?你也當過立法委員喔?對啊,你也曾經當過立法委員啊?請問召委的責任是什麼?"},{"start":21923.354,"end":21949.189,"text":"稍微就是召集主持會議安排議程讓官員來備詢阿把公務做好阿誠實回答委員的請勸所以我還是那個結論很簡單我也不知道你也不會你也不敢講什麼啦我可以體諒你啦但是我就要講很簡單今天民進黨昨天做出最壞的示範沒有討論沒有民主連開會都被你罷掉癱瘓掉民主什麼阿每天喊民主來我想請教你下一個問題"},{"start":21952.759,"end":21978.979,"text":"在下一個問題之前我先講一下我自己分享一些對台灣民主發展的一些看法我在2006年加入國民黨的事實上在2000年之前第一次政黨輪替之前我不喜歡當時的國民黨原因兩個第一個當時的威權時代的國民黨前置新聞自由第二個當時國民黨一黨獨大缺乏制衡"},{"start":21980.014,"end":22008.775,"text":"事實上在2000年第一次政黨輪替之前我也從來沒有投票給國民黨過1998年高雄市市長選舉我還投給謝長廷不是因為我很喜歡謝長廷單純就是因為我覺得國民黨權力太大缺乏制衡我覺得應該要讓民進黨可以得到一些權力來制衡這個獨大的國民黨不過我倒沒有想到結果謝長廷變成這輩子告我告最多的人"},{"start":22009.893,"end":22031.836,"text":"因為對因為在關西機場風暴當中他推謝哲任推給大阪處結果害大阪處優秀的外交官犧牲掉我批評他謝哲他告我兩次同一件事告我兩次兩次法院都判他輸打臉也認真他就是一個謝哲的駐日代表"},{"start":22032.779,"end":22059.418,"text":"我要講這件事是什麼告訴今天我們的院長我一直相信一個民主的鐵律絕對的權利使人絕對的腐化國民黨如此民進黨如此任何黨也是如此沒有制衡就沒有民主好問題來了我要跟你討論第一個題目就是新聞自由我想請教院長你認不認同沒有新聞自由就沒有民主"},{"start":22060.797,"end":22077.127,"text":"當然我們全力保障新聞的自由是民主重要的條件之一嘴巴全力保障新聞自由來看看實際做了什麼針對東森新聞台的政論節目被指遭到大陸媒體盯梢一案有一個人這麼說啦"},{"start":22078.713,"end":22093.953,"text":"調查這件事情不是很難的事情。如果沒有牽涉複雜情節,一個星期應可公布調查結果。這句話誰說的?我說的。非常好。請問調查結果出來了沒有?調查局立案在調查中。"},{"start":22095.074,"end":22097.515,"text":"你們兩個進度都太慢。行政團隊有一位傑出人才已經把調查結果說出來你知道是誰嗎?"},{"start":22122.944,"end":22129.104,"text":"主委會副主委梁文傑他比你兩個更果斷他直接說沒有爆料人結束啦"},{"start":22130.776,"end":22159.745,"text":"沒有爆料人嗎?請問一下我們的主委,沒有爆料人嗎?目前我們沒有接到任何的檢舉案件。沒有爆料人齁?來,請問一下院長,沒有爆料人嗎?我看到陸委會梁副主委說的這個答覆的說法,那是他在這個時候他的認知跟他手上的資訊是如此,但調查局竟在立案調查中。好啦,個人說法了齁,那我直接問你啦,兩個自由時報寫丁上岸的記者算不算爆料?"},{"start":22162.922,"end":22165.463,"text":"兩個自由時報,自由時報報道這個新聞算不算爆料?算不算嘛?"},{"start":22170.51,"end":22197.064,"text":"算不算爆料?重振這麼久,對不對?對啊,資訊傳遞,資訊暴露就是爆料啊,不是嗎?他提供訊息,他當作爆料也是,但提供訊息正不正確與否,調查局是調查當中。你也可以稱為把爆料解除而揭露資訊,揭發新聞嘛。沒關係啦,有故事就好,我不跟你再深究中文,今天不上中國語文學系啦。"},{"start":22198.184,"end":22217.654,"text":"我希望請教你,民進黨綽號早知道的那位大立委沈博洋,他說兩個月前就知道,說已經通報了,算不算爆料?請他繼續說明,很好,講幾乎這句話,可是我們梁文傑說沒有爆料人啊?"},{"start":22218.903,"end":22245.873,"text":"他顯然自由時報不看啊他顯然我們早知道大立委沈博洋他是什麼他認為這不算爆料還是他認為沈博洋不是人所以不是爆料人報告委如果哪一個委員會哪一個人講的話就當事實的話那就不需要調查立案調查了沒有關係你要切割沈博洋要切割梁文傑我跟你講是你卓榮泰一貫的風格我懂啦對你不是沒有了解才站在這地方嗎"},{"start":22246.733,"end":22247.554,"text":"這兩個月請問檢討團在幹嘛?掌握訊息了沒有?你掌握訊息了沒有這兩個月?"},{"start":22269.77,"end":22296.533,"text":"沈博洋通報了耶!堂堂民進黨的不分區第二名男性第一名民進黨現在的早知道英雄沈博洋今天跟你講說已經跟國安團隊通報了請問你通報了沒有一個負責的委員接到任何訊息他或許自己會有查證的義務所以他是在進行這個查證的過程這個我當然不清楚但沈委員講出來之後現在調查局在立案調查三周"},{"start":22298.462,"end":22327.291,"text":"我問是兩個月前,他說兩個月前通報所以他可能有一段自己查證,這個我不清楚,我真的不了解院長我怎麼會去了解一個委員不是,你他兩個月前也許你不了解但是兩個月後他說他通報了,都已經新聞出來快一個禮拜了你說一個禮拜可以調查出來,現在我講你不知道所以調查局在調查中,我可以去問嗎院長,我想請問你啊,我跟你問的是他有沒有爆料欸"},{"start":22328.885,"end":22340.131,"text":"你這件事情你到現在搞了一個禮拜都不清楚,那我直接問啦,來NCC有沒有跟你爆料?總會員有沒有跟你爆料?非常好,有擔當嘛,一句話嘛對嘛,沒有跟NCC爆料嘛"},{"start":22346.044,"end":22361.561,"text":"那我就問院長啊,沈博恩有沒有跟法務部有沒有跟調查局有沒有跟體檢署爆料?有沒有?他沒有跟我們報料,但是調查局在調查當中,這個是現在的事實。沒有,我要先跟你講清楚啦,講清楚啦,待會你就知道我要問什麼。"},{"start":22362.432,"end":22369.595,"text":"接下來有沒有跟國安單位爆料?委員有沒有去跟哪個單位講我怎麼會知道?我到目前為止問你問題幾乎沒有一個知道我超級欣賞你你還跟我講一個月一個禮拜調查結果要出來來我想請教你"},{"start":22383.473,"end":22398.621,"text":"今天沈博洋說已經通報了國安單位了兩個月了我請問國安單位是稅了廢了還是殘了兩個月有沒有進度有沒有報告連你都不知道所以調查局在調查當中啊噢好厲害啊趙博離開多久了新華社記者趙博離開多久了"},{"start":22406.249,"end":22411.172,"text":"一個月了啦。你也不知道啦。我知道他5月底離開啊。他有沒有做什麼事情。結果他一個多月前離開。"},{"start":22418.354,"end":22444.126,"text":"欸我覺得你們國安單位好厲害行政團隊超級棒欸委員你不能要求我在你當調查員一樣我沒有要你當調查員但是你自己拍胸脯保證一個禮拜調查報告都會出來啊你也說過他的背景如果不是很複雜結果你到現在是一問三不知啊他的背景如果不是很複雜一個禮拜就出來啊我直接跟你講啦我到現在為止我幫你做一個快結論啦剛剛委員所說的那麼多人的這個講法就是複雜啊你辛苦我做一個快結論啦我不能跟你裝作我什麼都知道啊因為"},{"start":22445.286,"end":22469.028,"text":"那你要問省委員他根本沒有通報啦半天早通報大家講出來啊至少確定NCC沒有確定你偉大三不知行政院院長不知道他跟哪一個單位通報啦通報連個通報的窗口都不知道啦難怪管單位睡兩個月啦睡到今天自由時報報導之後你到現在還是三不知啦"},{"start":22469.926,"end":22486.545,"text":"我最後跟院長說,你本來就不知嘛,你18不知我都不理,我都可以逼意外,從頭到尾審判就瞎編,就是王立強二號,今天你不敢背書他要切割梁文傑,我覺得都同意你,很簡單,因為你也扛不起。"},{"start":22488.936,"end":22513.624,"text":"接下來我就要想要問一下我告訴各位行政團隊搞了半天東森新聞台人家是有品牌有聲譽報導真相報導事實非常努力的新聞台你認同吧我認同這個謝謝你啊但你認同結果現在我跟你講為什麼院長我給你一個期待啦新聞自由不是嘴巴喊喊的"},{"start":22514.605,"end":22531.796,"text":"今天包括官員包括說立委包括綠媒在抹黑一個客觀公正然後兢兢業業在守護第四權的東森新聞台結果你到這邊你跟我一問事不知十八不知"},{"start":22532.935,"end":22534.996,"text":"好,謝謝羅委員。謝謝卓院長。下一位我們請嚴寬衡委員之選。"},{"start":22570.937,"end":22575.863,"text":"主席各位列席官員大家好主席我想請行政院卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":22583.712,"end":22599.962,"text":"院長好,今天是交通組的總質詢,但是我在開始之前先想要請院長針對大進滿88號漁船被大陸海警帶回泉州已經是第三天了,可不可以跟大家報告一下目前我方的進度如何?"},{"start":22601.049,"end":22626.503,"text":"好,謝謝文關心的。我們一樣歡心這個人船的安全。那事發當時海巡的兄弟們很積極的去想著把他營救回來。但是因為進入到對方的海域比較深處,不敢再往前進,所以就在當時進行了這個決定。那現在為止我們正透過包括陸委會、海基會都在跟對方做積極的接洽當中。希望第一個人船能夠緊速的回來,也希望對方保護安全。"},{"start":22626.883,"end":22637.78,"text":"您一定要平安的回來,國人的安全不要淪為一個政治的角力。好,院長那我來繼續請教。請問院長知不知道台鐵便當節目前第幾屆?對不起,台鐵便當節。"},{"start":22641.125,"end":22670.052,"text":"臺鐵便當目前是第幾屆?臺鐵的便當節目前第幾屆?我告訴你第九屆也是民營化之後公司化之後的第一屆那四天從這個四天入場人數突破40萬營業額也衝高到1200萬那大幅的超越預期那臺鐵一向都是我們非常喜歡的也是便當界的首選像我們今天宴會也是吃臺鐵便當那我想"},{"start":22670.851,"end":22673.653,"text":"海線的雙軌大概是有人關心是從談文到追分這一段"},{"start":22699.45,"end":22709.928,"text":"另外高架山西縣的部分是大慶到烏日這一段目前包括山海縣跟捷運南線一起在做一個共購的一個"},{"start":22711.459,"end":22728.848,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":22729.088,"end":22748.824,"text":"過去只有單軌的時代,海線只有單軌,所以不管是這個快慢車的調度還有實際運作上都有一定的難度。那班次少還有搭乘的人次比較少,所以這樣子惡性循環讓很多的旅客還有地方的居民都捨棄台鐵,尋求其他的交通運輸方式。"},{"start":22749.523,"end":22769.382,"text":"我們都知道,像交通部長到台中去考察,我們也一直在討論這些問題,軌道經濟可以帶動地方一個長遠性的發展。所以台中鐵路海線雙軌高架的部分,在跟我們捷運南線會在沙路站做一個交錯。"},{"start":22770.043,"end":22787.671,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":22788.029,"end":22804.138,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":22804.206,"end":22804.226,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":22825.879,"end":22853.729,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":22853.949,"end":22854.531,"text":"全線高架"},{"start":22864.36,"end":22884.08,"text":"現階段我們目前的計畫是海線的部分是部分高架那另外就是包括大慶到烏日因為他延續台中市的這個高架的部分可以繼續從大慶延伸那這兩個會列為優先那後面如果要全線高架可能還要再進一步做可行性的這個評估"},{"start":22887.042,"end":22899.397,"text":"鐵路是國有財產不管是營收營運都屬於中央所有所以過去我們看到從台中市火車站一直到豐原整個全線的高架都是由中央專案補助全額補助"},{"start":22900.885,"end":22912.957,"text":"那這一次我們看到了大烏日大慶傳烏日到大慶這個鐵路高架部分臺中市政府要負擔56%要負擔56%負擔的比例相當的高總經費83.4億要負擔超過40幾億那我們來看下一張表格這個部分請看一下齁"},{"start":22927.486,"end":22950.561,"text":"桃園地下化部分,地方只要負擔25%,嘉義的高架化負擔14%,嘉義的延長高架化延伸計畫負擔15%,台南市的地下化部分負擔12.5%,那高雄市的部分負擔29%,只有台中,台中負擔56%。"},{"start":22952.782,"end":22967.394,"text":"為什麼要負擔這麼高?為什麼要負擔這麼高?而且台中我們現在提到的只提到烏日大慶高價化這個部分,這部分八十幾億,如果再加上海線雙軌平面跟雙軌高價的部分可能要上看七百多億。"},{"start":22968.291,"end":22987.299,"text":"全部臺中市政府要負擔56%,那可不可以請院長跟部長告訴我們為什麼臺中市這個自主負擔要負擔這麼高?是,我簡單做一個說明,就是現在不管是鐵路高架或者是鐵路地下立體化的部分,"},{"start":22987.779,"end":23012.265,"text":"其實除了讓台鐵在營運上面有比較安全之外那另外一個重點就是讓所在的城市他的彼此之間的這個貫穿這個鐵路的道路可以縫合可以沒有這個平交道那對交通對市容都有很大的幫助所以這個部分才會有這個地方政府要負擔的部分負擔的這個部分"},{"start":23013.385,"end":23041.884,"text":"那現在是因為有一個通案性的計算原則就是有自償的部分優先由地方政府負擔那非自償的部分才由中央政府跟地方政府來照比例那這個部分我想是一個全國性貫通通用的一個原則那可能在自償率的這我們不能理解齁一樣是直轄市對不對你地下化的預算費用更高但是桃園市他負擔25%那為什麼台中市要負擔56%呢"},{"start":23043.565,"end":23043.705,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":23064.099,"end":23090.945,"text":"是不是鼓勵說地方政府不應該把自己的財政這個管理的那麼好?他主要還是優先有一個自償有具自償性的部分會由地方這邊負擔那另外非自償的部分才由中央地方照一定財政的分級的比例來處理那這個部分因為有牽涉到比較詳細的計算委員我是不是另外再安排時間來跟您做一個說明"},{"start":23091.912,"end":23092.233,"text":"海線鐵路雙軌部分"},{"start":23100.472,"end":23125.873,"text":"我們真的是要靠中央來支持因為地方沒有辦法負擔那麼大的預算尤其是之前前瞻計畫的分配不均對台中人已經很大的傷害但是台中市還是依舊努力的為全國創稅台中市是全國第二大城市112年上繳中央的稅款將近2200億回配率是接近10年來最低只有40%拿回869億"},{"start":23130.046,"end":23153.627,"text":"這個迴避比例不成正比,我們認為說不應該讓好學生受到更多的懲罰。台鐵、大慶烏日還有烏日到沙鹿,這個高價化屬於台中的一個重大建設,包括捷運南線的部分。那最近局縣也通過了我們的一個審查會。"},{"start":23155.102,"end":23176.316,"text":"那所以我們還有交通委員會下個禮拜還要到臺中去考察局限跟止限的部分所以這麼多的重大建設都在臺中但是臺中必須要負擔那麼高的比例這對臺中市政府來講是極為不公平那所以我想這部分要請院長跟部長大力的來幫助臺中市可不可以"},{"start":23178.576,"end":23204.97,"text":"這個7月1號局限的一個部長也到了現場去有進行這個局限後續的那個審查的程序那原則上應該是朝正面通過的方向來走那未來關於他的這個經濟效益跟財務的評估希望市政府還要提出更詳細的計畫那這個部分我想如果是針對地方所需要的那中央來依照所有的這個財務狀況來合作這應該就是我們未來在走的路"},{"start":23207.556,"end":23223.657,"text":"我在提供給你一些數據參考,臺中烏日就是我們高鐵特區,那最近高鐵娛樂城也正式的動工。那高鐵站,臺中高鐵站現在是全國第二大站點,出入的人次每月平均量是220萬人次。"},{"start":23226.141,"end":23253.443,"text":"那從這個觀光局提供的資料110年整年度到臺中主要各個觀光油漆的據點的統計是3900萬人112年度已經突破了5000萬人次所以臺中市目前的發展正在快速的成長所以需要各項交通的升級跟建設所以我想請教院長你同不同意本席的說法"},{"start":23254.189,"end":23277.988,"text":"我們在均衡臺灣的理念之下各地都應該有他地方所需要的事實的建設那臺中是在臺灣的正中心的一個地理位置而且他又有相當多比方觀光啦科技等等的發展我覺得健全臺中大臺中地區的交通建設是中央地方合作的方向我們跟立法院副院長還有市長以及各位委員很多"},{"start":23278.882,"end":23305.213,"text":"﹚國會議員"},{"start":23305.776,"end":23305.796,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":23322.635,"end":23350.256,"text":"高鐵營業省在115年陸續完工那高鐵每天平日將增加3.1萬人次假日的時候會增加4.8萬人次會讓現在高鐵已經飽和的一個交通的服務水準會下降所以我們現在就強烈的建議說希望在請交通部還有這個部長行政院院長"},{"start":23351.451,"end":23380.411,"text":"在我們國道一號這個偵測烏日交流道也就在我們高鐵高鐵站周遭因為他北側是這個臺中的五泉西路交流道南側是這個王田交流道所以這周邊的交流道要優化還有台74線的閘道優化之外希望能夠偵測烏日交流道國道一號這樣子才能有效的紓解整個高鐵特區以及周遭所有的車流可不可以"},{"start":23382.583,"end":23405.291,"text":"委員我跟您報告一下就是上個禮拜剛動工的這個最大的商場這個部分應該是全國目前最大的一個商業設施那它的樓地板面積大概有101的4倍這麼大所以未來一定會為高鐵特定區帶來非常大的人潮因為我看它佔地面積就有將近15公頃"},{"start":23406.391,"end":23406.831,"text":"因為剛好,如果看剛剛那張圖"},{"start":23435.872,"end":23461.281,"text":"國道一剛好在這個地方有一個大轉彎那這個大轉彎的趨利半徑目前評估起來如果要增加紮道跟他的規範技術規範會有一些難度所以我想讓整個規劃一個出來比較可行的方案看是由74來接還是由原來王田交流到這邊來做一個分叉來接技術上可行的方案我覺得來做會比較有一個整體性"},{"start":23463.762,"end":23489.936,"text":"這個74號是屬於我們公路總局的那國道是高速公路局都是中央那尤其高鐵娛樂城他也是我們鐵道局的出差案這個東西在這個地方國道要偵測烏日交流道我相信交通部行政院責務旁帶能夠讓為這個地方的一個交通建設能夠提升服務品質然後呢也為了防止未來整個高鐵客區他的交通"},{"start":23501.92,"end":23517.523,"text":"好謝謝謝謝嚴委員謝謝院長還有部長部長那個要超前部署不然你以後回台中也會塞到我們下一位請這個呂毓林委員質詢"},{"start":23524.647,"end":23525.548,"text":"謝謝主席,請卓院長。"},{"start":23538.51,"end":23561.952,"text":"委員長,許多國人他們都認為我們現在國旅的費用非常的昂貴,尤其是CP值比不上韓國跟日本這些鄰近的國家。所以他們寧可出國去玩,也不願意留在我們國內來觀光這個現象。所以本席也特地的再跟觀光署來調一些資料。"},{"start":23562.592,"end":23587.724,"text":"在108年的疫情之前到112年的疫情之後我們的房價真的是調幅了很高調高將近有20%以上那這些情形觀光署的解釋說明是說因為基本工資還有電價跟原物料的關係才讓我們住宿的旅館這房價越來越高那可是在一般民眾是認為是說因為這個"},{"start":23590.405,"end":23613.612,"text":"是我們旅遊的淡旺季的關係但是淡旺季禮拜一到禮拜五幾乎都是沒有人去六日的時候要一房給難求在這種情況所以他為了擬貧他們的營運成本的關係所以他把這個假日的房價來提高這樣子的話他成本才能夠平衡所以在這種情形之下"},{"start":23614.952,"end":23634.671,"text":"我們看到的是平日跟這個我們價值的關係那請問院長跟部長那有沒有可能說我們對這個住房這個房價用有沒有特別的規範讓我們這個價值的價錢跟平日的價錢不能超過多少幾%的情形來受限制呢?"},{"start":23635.646,"end":23664.5,"text":"報告委員這個發展觀光是國家重大的政策我們在前陣子的這個報告當中我們還特別提出希望季季都是觀光季我們希望天天都是了路線能夠把它拉長那現在就有這種情形嘛淡忘記的情形那因為在疫情之後見到很多人力的缺口啦很多人力無法的補充回來等等會觀光的品質會有所影響但是說真的也真的是成為委員所說在國內觀光包括交通費住宿費"},{"start":23665.28,"end":23668.763,"text":"議長,最重要的是要有人進來觀光,不是我們的國旅。我們的國旅的話,大家說台灣的"},{"start":23688.157,"end":23688.297,"text":"關關數多少?"},{"start":23711.517,"end":23737.886,"text":"三百五十三萬人次,三百五十三萬人次的話,如果你照這個數字算到年底的話,也不會超過七百萬人次。那這種情形之下,要怎麼救觀光呢?那尤其現在啊,這兩岸互不來觀光的話,入客又不進來的情形之下,那你們現在又港澳臺的話,這個又身為這個成燈這個情形之下,我們要如何來做到這觀光人次呢?"},{"start":23739.673,"end":23766.045,"text":"跟委員報告目前統計到6月底大概是將近有380幾萬到390這樣也達不到1千萬那如果因為我們通常在臺灣國際旅客來的旺季比較偏重在下半年所以我們認為大家再努力一點還是有機會那當然因為上半年因為受到零四連戰部長你太過於樂觀了這我感覺太過良好"},{"start":23768.126,"end":23784.686,"text":"其實有很多的方法啦本期就是建議像國際觀光客我們就可以招攬更多的國際觀光客引進來台灣觀光這個就會平衡一下我們平日的住房率很差的情形這也是一個重點啦可不可以朝這方面努力來做了"},{"start":23784.986,"end":23785.246,"text":"另外也有推出"},{"start":23814.397,"end":23815.658,"text":"關關署網頁推出優質的比較平價的旅宿給國人參考來訂房。"},{"start":23832.386,"end":23847.978,"text":"接下來本席想請教的就是院長、部長。十一住行是我們生活的主要,其中行的交通是我們每天生活上都會遇到的,尤其是在馬路上都充滿了汽機車跟行人。"},{"start":23849.759,"end":23878.965,"text":"一遇到交通事故的時候就有關著我們的生命財產都受到損傷所以在這邊我們特別要提到的就是交通安全是我們最重要關注的但是在交通安全上交通事故這個發生尤其是兒童的事故的傷害就是頭號殺手了那所以本期要聚焦在這個我們兒童的交通事故那要關心的就是我們就學我們的通學的這整個環境的這個步道上面"},{"start":23879.525,"end":23881.047,"text":"那最重要的就是去年的時候高達3萬人"},{"start":23899.753,"end":23917.22,"text":"您表示我們政府在這方面行的安全是做得非常不夠了院長你同意嗎?是所以才會用2萬提升到3萬嘛那現在最重要的是要跟你討論就是行的安全尤其是通血的這些步道這些人行道上面針對這個進捐基金會的調查報告裡面"},{"start":23919.301,"end":23940.363,"text":"有75%的家長是自己接受。25%的學生自行上下課。但是將近有51%的學生是不想自己去上學。這原因當然是很多啦。那包括是道路被停車所佔走了。還有新人走一走會走到這個汽機車的道路上是非常危險。還有"},{"start":23942.704,"end":23943.224,"text":"﹚三、7月5日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":23961.317,"end":23963.279,"text":"所以本席要給院長和市長看一下準備的影片。"},{"start":23985.216,"end":24012.149,"text":"就是本席在我們桃園平鎮地區的幾個國小、國中、高中的學校裡面,他的同學的,您看到,有很多,尤其是學校周邊,都是斑馬線,斑馬線還交叉複雜的那個圖形,那他們也無所適從。那而且,出了學校門口之後,沒有人行道。而有些有人行道的部分,它又有很多的障礙物,有路燈、有變電箱。"},{"start":24013.71,"end":24039.503,"text":"還有談判這些等等所以必須要趕快積極來做那交通部在這邊的時候你們特別也有講到說在113年到116年啊你們編列了預算要來讓我們所有的通學步道來做以改善在我們全台灣有4165間學校但是你這4年的時間你只要做715家學校不到20%"},{"start":24041.044,"end":24044.071,"text":"那其他的呢?其他學校他們會各自提案嗎?這個委員報告"},{"start":24047.028,"end":24075.609,"text":"路口的改善,現在交通部正提出一個大案的計畫,我們在年底之前會把799處依照式的危險路口做標示、標線以及中央庇護島的一個改善。同時在200個學校的周遭的道路會加設標線標誌,讓行政經過更清楚。院長反其跟你提的是4165個學校,你的目標是700個學校,你為什麼危險的時候不能等待,很多路口停"},{"start":24076.349,"end":24079.771,"text":"您的聯海處是什麼調查出來的200處?你是讓各校提供的嗎?"},{"start":24105.667,"end":24129.509,"text":"這個是由內政部國土署跟各縣市政府包括教育局、公務局大家去會刊那選定那不過之前也有已經有些4000所學校裡面有之前有部分已經完成那未來我們是把最迫切的這700多所列為優先的目標那當然如果各縣市的量能他可以提早提早在這4年內來完成的我們也歡迎他提出來"},{"start":24130.009,"end":24131.11,"text":"因為本席擔心你這個計畫是4年的時間,4年才去檢討的話,太慢了。"},{"start":24149.229,"end":24149.389,"text":"好的委員"},{"start":24176.665,"end":24203.223,"text":"這一定要去做的交通部盡量在今年完成這個200處之外盡量跟地方來了解哪些路段更需要加進來往後加去來進行從2萬人增加到去年的3萬人是增加不是減少的所以我們怎麼可以慢慢來呢一定要同步全台灣一起的來檢討改善我們整個交通學的這個環境尤其是通學的環境這部分好不好"},{"start":24205.205,"end":24217.572,"text":"接下來本席要討論的就是我們地方的我們的建設在本席的選區裡面目前我們桃園鐵路地下化平正車站的進度在哪裡"},{"start":24221.607,"end":24239.586,"text":"跟委員報告現有的憑證車站目前正在施工現在正在做連續幣的工程那我想市府有提出希望能夠南以南以那靠近這個未來的一個重劃區那目前的評估起來就是說如果現在南以有三個問題一個是他會在這個"},{"start":24242.97,"end":24250.053,"text":"對於旅客的動線還有逃生的動線、疏散動線會有一個問題。第二個整個桃園鐵路地下化的期程會增加三年。第三個就是現有站已經在施工,移過來會增加的經費這個部分還要再估算。"},{"start":24272.003,"end":24281.677,"text":"謝謝你了解所有的狀況很感謝你那本席在上任立法委員一直到現在非常關注的就是這個建設因為在桃園鐵路有"},{"start":24284.178,"end":24284.338,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":24304.997,"end":24329.82,"text":"本來中壢車站是最醜的車站,現在也已經移到旁邊去做臨時站,要趕快做改善的整個工程。所以你看到,憑證車站,交通堵塞,道路狹窄,腹地不夠的清新,我們擔心憑證也會發生一樣的問題。所以我們要遠見,要讓地方進步發展,就必須要有未來看得到的問題都要一一的來解決。"},{"start":24330.681,"end":24352.715,"text":"當下的時候我們在106年的時候我們就經過了可信心的評估把我們的憑證車站用增設計劃裡面在我們高架已經設進去了後來改成鐵路地下化我們也經過溝通協調也納入鐵路地下化的這個工程那但是因為一些坡度的問題說要改變我們的"},{"start":24354.456,"end":24378.443,"text":"車站要北移665公尺那本是那時候的話一直講說那你車站設置一個有腹地夠寬廣有停車空間有公車轉運不造成交通堵塞的地方但是前朝市政府一直沒有聽到民意所以沒有在找到更好的地點所以北移了665公尺就是現在的這平鎮車站的地方"},{"start":24378.823,"end":24396.966,"text":"後來張燦正市長上任之後馬上反映這問題必須要獲得解決所以我們先解決了就坡度的問題行政院也已經通過同意我們我們鐵路平正車站這個陶鐵地下化出土位置難以1.2公里既然難以1.2公里坡度也解決了"},{"start":24397.346,"end":24427.346,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":24427.688,"end":24449.808,"text":"如果市政府儘速把這個暫止的地點能夠確定下來,那地方也能夠接受,或是交通部。這是我們民意大家所要求的。對,儘速跟這個市政府來做協商,我們進行以後必要的程序。那拜託,拜託院長跟市長。好,謝謝李委員。下一位我們請游哈委員質詢。"},{"start":24471.943,"end":24498.709,"text":"謝謝各位主席、副院長。那有請院長,還有NCC的主委,還有速發部的部長。請卓院長備詢NCC主委、速發部部長。委員好。院長好。那我想在這裡先請教我們就是NCC的主委。"},{"start":24500.768,"end":24518.84,"text":"主委,這個未來NCC的主委卸任之後,你會去台哥大當他的獨立董事嗎?台哥大?我們有那個旋轉門條款,不可能。對啊,所以你不會嘛。那NCC會有任何的委員卸任之後,去台哥大當獨立董事嗎?"},{"start":24519.993,"end":24548.036,"text":"這還是要說公園服務法的規定那所以這很明顯的那也知道像目前來講在台客大在這個6月30之後那在7月1號它的評普的部分因為會提這個的話我們都知道NCC它主要它不僅是要防止媒體壟斷那它也需要去防止電信壟斷各式各樣的壟斷在一個市場的一個公平競爭之下那所以說在目前我們看到"},{"start":24548.897,"end":24572.418,"text":"台客到他藉由他的訴訟,他要來跟NCC來進行一個訴訟,他要來把這個評普,價值7億的評普來站著,沒有去做一個規劃,那嚴重的衝擊到這個市場的機制,那主要在一個公平是非跟公道的一個過程,那我想就教一下院長,那像這樣子的一個事件,行政院以及相關所屬機關會持什麼樣的態度來進行處理?"},{"start":24575.547,"end":24596.681,"text":"蘋果是國家的公共財產絕對要在一個公平的分配底下有利於人民在使用這個設施能夠得到最佳的便利所以任何的廠商都應該在這個規範底下去做一些蘋果的分配絕對不能有任何隱私或私心的作為沒有錯那院長你說的沒錯那現在NCC要如何來做這個作為"},{"start":24600.411,"end":24623.74,"text":"回答一下委員的問題平普基本上來講現在主管機關是數位部當然平普來講的話他的規劃使用以後那監理是由NCC來負責那現在來講的話像台科大因為這是個案我們現在已經找這個台科大這個部分來講下禮拜會到本會來陳述意見因為這會涉及到一方面來講第一個就是說那個平普如果超標的話超評的話要怎麼處理的問題第二"},{"start":24627.182,"end":24636.12,"text":"就是這個部分可能是數位部的權限但是如果是跟NCC有關的是那個營運計畫的問題也就是當時我們在做合併的處分的時候"},{"start":24636.636,"end":24656.884,"text":"有提到這個依法他有抄品的部分要繳回來不繳回來講的話那有可能營運相關營運計畫可能會涉及到財儲的問題對那因為NCG涉及到財儲包括罰款最低從50甚至到500萬可是這個價值期就算他不斷的裁罰NCG不斷的裁罰但是他佔著這個評估是國家財產一樣價值期他一樣持續在營運那當然"},{"start":24662.626,"end":24683.133,"text":"數位發展部的部長我也不會問他會不會去NCC當獨棟,因為他剛上任也很積極啊,要積極發揮。那只是說在目前NCC,我坦白講,我們社會各界看到的對於中天啊,可以馬上立即的揮起大刀,但是在台哥大他目前來講的財閥,因為這個部分大家都在看報導,"},{"start":24684.053,"end":24703.35,"text":"一路都知道在當初他在整併這臺灣之心的時候他就已經讓臺灣之心他吸收了這85億85億的這個金額的部分來做這個評估的虧損而現在他又直接再告這個NCC再走這行政訴訟來進行這個拖延那本席直接就叫我們的院長"},{"start":24704.111,"end":24704.611,"text":"我回答一下"},{"start":24719.454,"end":24739.403,"text":"基本上來講像這個案子來講的話他有沒有違反那我們會本會是獨立機關是合一制會經過委員會討論以後來是不是有違反要不要採取那採取如果說違反狀態還沒有辦法解決我們會要求改正那如果改正他不改正我們會去連續採取的問題那這個不就是陷入這個困境嗎"},{"start":24739.983,"end":24744.986,"text":"那本席還是在這裡希望院長也可以針對這事情表個態啦因為我們看到如果說不斷的這樣子的裁罰那裁罰到時候不斷的拖延那一方面"},{"start":24767.797,"end":24786.703,"text":"這個當初在這整個合併的過程中那臺哥大就已經也都把這個包括遊戲規則三分之一就要繳回超過就要繳回都直接讓NCC主委都清楚知道但是現在來講讓臺灣資金他吸收了這個85億那再跟NCC再進行這個訴訟來去拖延"},{"start":24787.216,"end":24790.157,"text":"政府對於這個市場的保護來講,我覺得是不夠達到積極的態度跟手段。相信院長應該也同意我的看法。"},{"start":24804.782,"end":24829.516,"text":"任何的合併都應該以保障消費者的權益當為優先的考量。這個過程當中如果有不當的利益使用或是在使用上有違規違法的情形,那NCC剛剛是有罰則的。那這罰則縱使有上限,那如果能夠我們有持續不斷的要求業者來改善這個作為,我認為這樣的強度是必須拿出來的。表示公權力跟這個消費者的權益是站在一起的。"},{"start":24830.458,"end":24857.984,"text":"好,那因為這個部分涉及到廢紙嘛,中天的等於是換照的時候就被大刀一揮嘛,那本席我跟台灣大革大其實也不認識,那只是針對這個議題來講,我相信大家都在關注,那我希望行政院這邊報告ICC能夠技術積極作為,好謝謝。那我接著要請教交通的議題,那就謝謝主委跟部長,謝謝。那請交通部長。"},{"start":24868.2,"end":24886.019,"text":"本席還是如以往的在上次的總執行也有針對這個終結還局限能夠進南投那這一件議題這個有關於南投非常重大的一個交通建設因為中張投尤其是台中南投本就是一個生活圈那這個終結進南投的這個議題"},{"start":24888.562,"end":24907.482,"text":"更是許淑華許縣長在過去8年立委期間以及現在當縣長期間非常重視的議題那本席只想在這邊針對終結局限金南投希望行政院長能夠表個態南投縣政府的計畫送進來的時候是不是行政院這邊也能夠全力來支持"},{"start":24908.325,"end":24928.523,"text":"交通部應該是要跟台中市政府南投縣政府在進行這個可行性的評估那現在交通部的進度是不是跟委員報告是跟委員報告在去年去年的2月已經有合訂補助南投縣政府針對這個延伸的部分來做可行性的規劃"},{"start":24929.584,"end":24948.114,"text":"現在正在做規劃之中我想他只要規劃報告完成那我們會送到交通部來協助當然在規劃的過程必須也要跟台中市做相關的協商包括工程的辦理還有未來怎麼樣的經營誰來當經營的主體相關的財務怎麼樣的一個分擔我想這個部分也要先協商之後我們就會來協助審議"},{"start":24956.297,"end":24984.471,"text":"OK那本席還是這邊再強調一下交通部協助南投縣政府的這個報告評估計畫在7月就會完成南投縣軌道系統整體網路評估計畫那到時候包括南投縣政府跟台中市政府本就有共識了那也希望交通部到時候能夠全力支持那也希望說因為這是包括賴清德總統的一個政見那所以本席在這也希望院長您能夠表個態"},{"start":24985.431,"end":24986.332,"text":"總結舉憲進南投您是支持?"},{"start":25000.976,"end":25015.998,"text":"只要評估有效益那相關的這個規定符合我想我們就來協助處處理這個中張頭生活圈這一定有效益但是院長你是可以表達一個支持的態度那我相信南投縣民也比較放心"},{"start":25017.52,"end":25018.601,"text":"我接著問一個重大的建設"},{"start":25036.883,"end":25064.204,"text":"那這個之前的話本席在上次總之選還沒有提過但是這一次要特別的來為我們的南投跟彰化的鄉親尤其是南投的鄉親來跟院長這邊來爭取就是我們國道3號南雲交流道它通車完工之後其實是讓這個我們整體的南邊的南投鄉親啊在交通上是確實是有比較便利的一個出口那這問題是"},{"start":25066.892,"end":25094.714,"text":"院長其實大家在看待我們有時候在去中部的時候去這個快關交友道下還直接到台中搭高鐵這是非常便利但是南投的鄉親其實卻沒有辦法輕易的來去田中高鐵站來搭這個高鐵大家必須還是要繞到雲林還再到這個田中高鐵站才去搭所以這個一下一上的這個路徑是非常的遙遠"},{"start":25095.695,"end":25123.246,"text":"那現在其實當初在這個交流道他有預留一個缺口他就是要做這個張覽大橋只要竹山一過去這個二水他就直接到田中可以直接到高鐵站那過去來講縣府曾經有提出希望能夠讓交通部來協助那中央的經費出的比例包括南投縣政府跟昭和縣政府能夠出的比例那現在南投縣政府跟昭和縣政府也有共識那是不是可以來請"},{"start":25124.286,"end":25150.971,"text":"院長以及部長來思考這個南雲交流道搭這個張南大橋過去的這一個建設後續他可以持續做到的就是一路到田中高鐵再到二嶺的工業區那就是等於就是一個東西向的快速道路那相信這個對整體南投去彰化也好去搭高鐵也好都是非常的便利那相關的資料其實交通部過去都有"},{"start":25151.511,"end":25175.388,"text":"那我想說就交一下院長還是這一案能夠正向來支持也能夠積極協助。交通的規劃交通部先說明一下。委員您所提的應該就是竹山到二水的這個快速東西向的這個快速道路。那這個我的了解如果要跨越要穿越八卦山脈是比較一個大的工程所以必須要"},{"start":25176.048,"end":25197.581,"text":"我修正一下部長的說法,這個不用跨越八卦山脈,它直接就是跨左水溪就可以了。所以當初在評估計畫到時候留了一個缺口,就是讓這個交流道,南營交流道可以直接過去跨越左水溪。那旁邊的話其實是有雲林到彰化的大橋,所以它的那個難度在以前早就已經突破了。"},{"start":25198.981,"end":25213.608,"text":"這個是我們做一個了解我們也會跟南投縣府跟彰化縣府大家一起來坐下來協商如果在交通上有他的需求看怎麼樣來啟動這個部分的可行性"},{"start":25214.048,"end":25241.655,"text":"好那因為這個部分預計交通委員會我們也會排7月15號的會刊到時候我們來考察那也希望院長能夠對於這項重大建設能夠正面支持好報告每每到南投去都知道台中在經過道路系統雖然建設比過去是進步許多了但也一直在思考如果能夠有一個更便捷的方式我想對南投的鄉民居民來看絕對是一個好的結果所以交通部在"},{"start":25242.535,"end":25258.428,"text":"接下來的會館當中我們全力的來看看如何協助。好那因為本席坦白講在過去8年其實我就不考院長就是8年在南投彰化可以提出的重大的一個交通建設其實是不好列舉"},{"start":25259.269,"end":25279.114,"text":"但是我相信在這一年就是在院長您擔任院長的任上包括部長積極協助推動讓這個快速道路能夠看見曙光我相信這個對於南投跟彰化我相信會是以大福音因為建設也不分藍綠我們中央地方齊心好不好謝謝"},{"start":25280.454,"end":25307.487,"text":"再來一個議題就是這個臺灣好行我們看到這個觀光暑期做的推動的部分都非常好包括中東部的推動那目前來講我們看到許多的成績也帶動地方觀光發展那但是南投市目前南投市南投的最大的鄉鎮市還沒有相關的路線那是想請這個到時候院長跟部長來積極的支持南投市也能夠有後續的路線來開出"},{"start":25309.093,"end":25331.334,"text":"那接著就是我們看到博愛座那博愛座現在被稱博豆座那現在來講做一個修正來講他叫做有必須要使用者那來去做這個座位去做一個更名實際需要者那本席在這裡還是要提出希望交通部還在這個部分能夠跟衛福部再去做一個溝通"},{"start":25331.934,"end":25356.83,"text":"因為老弱婦孺改為實際需要者我個人是認為不應該是受到許多這些事件反而大家應該是回頭來講是在宣導跟教育上還重新讓大家來去做一個認知而不是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳那我相信不能本末倒置因為本來來講大家實際需要這樣子的字眼還需要去做一個定義我覺得其實是大可不必"},{"start":25357.35,"end":25363.821,"text":"反而是應該實際需要是哪些以前的類別都可以反而是應該是加強宣導那最後"},{"start":25364.977,"end":25393.053,"text":"那這個謝謝院長那時候在馬文君委員提出查柏的時候你有表達說您到時候也會來參加這南投的查柏對那謝謝您的參與那相信到時候大家非常期待那本席也在這裡也特別拜託延續馬文君委員跟許淑華縣長的一個需求過去兩年的話查柏中央的補助是800萬那是不是在今年的部分可以持續往800萬以上的水平來支持好不好"},{"start":25393.695,"end":25395.156,"text":"好 謝謝有委員謝謝院長下一位請林俊憲委員質詢好謝謝主席"},{"start":25424.246,"end":25430.891,"text":"本席邀請我們行政院卓院長。卓院長請備選。我們交通部李部長。部長請備選。立委好。院長好。部長好。自從賴清德總統當選到上任以來,"},{"start":25449.532,"end":25477.286,"text":"曾多次在公開場合說過,未來臺灣的經濟和政策的發展重心將會逐步難移。例如今年初賴總統曾經對高科技產業發言的時候說,未來50年,由南部來發揮力量。上個禮拜六,賴總統來到高雄捷運的岡山車站通車典禮。"},{"start":25478.251,"end":25505.037,"text":"他說,現在他來做總統,要讓臺灣的發展平均,要支持南部發展,最先進的產業會往中南部來移動。我記得6月15日,卓院長你很辛苦地到臺南沙崙的科學園區,來正式宣布國家的AI園區會設在臺南的沙崙,是這樣齁?"},{"start":25508.988,"end":25525.866,"text":"所以我認為賴總統的想法和做法我把它稱呼為建設大南方就是說未來我們政府的施政重心會更加重視的南北的均衡"},{"start":25526.772,"end":25554.63,"text":"更加的投資南部,來扭轉多年以來的南北部平衡。不知道院長,總院長您的看法是如何?謝謝委員。總統的講法也一定是在均衡台灣的理念之下,建設大南方,但是也不會忽略或是放掉北部跟中部。因為過去北部中部的發展已經有相當長的一段的時間,所以各方的健全的發展也比較多。那南方過去承受的比較多的"},{"start":25555.23,"end":25558.692,"text":"但是我們提到了高科技產業的往南邊移動當然有政策上的因素但是你只有先天需要的"},{"start":25588.952,"end":25606.229,"text":"南部有土地,台南的沙崙還有南科土地加起來大概有將近2000公頃還可以使用。另外就電力,其實現在北部的電力都是靠南電北送,長途的電力輸送增加損耗。"},{"start":25607.352,"end":25633.769,"text":"尤其你在北部幾乎不可能再蓋新的電廠所以未來的高科技產業的發展勢必一定會往中南部移動這個也是必然的所以在未來的產業會往南部移動的前提之下我們希望政府我要提問的是我們的基礎建設做好了嗎我今天要來跟部長院長討論的就是說我們必須要超前部署"},{"start":25635.168,"end":25659.918,"text":"我們必須要來進速發展提升南部的尤其台南的一些基礎建設像台南全世界最重要的半導體的生產基地還有未來AI最重要的一個發展的地方但是它的基礎建設尤其交通我今天特別要來請教院長還有李部長"},{"start":25661.411,"end":25690.262,"text":"那我也跟總院長來報告啦,我跟李孟彥部長在談台南的交通啊,非常輕鬆啊,因為你知道嘛,他在台南活過很多年的時間啊,做過台南的局長,副市長,還有代理局長。所以,李孟彥,現在來當年我們的交通不正,對台南的交通,我當年跟他討論,有時候講了一些細節啦,不正不一定知道。那李孟彥部長喔,非常清楚啦,他甚至不用看圖啦。"},{"start":25698.746,"end":25716.934,"text":"李部長非常的認真也情保也熟悉業務那他代表行政院去跟外界所做任何的協商我們行政院都非常支持好謝謝院長李部長就經過我們兩任市長我們就要同時把台南所抱的基礎幹線就三橫三縱他三條第二線就是台61"},{"start":25720.255,"end":25739.632,"text":"國道1到國道3那三條環所謂三橫就是台84號快速道路就84號快速道路還有國道8還有86號那黃偉哲市長再多一橫就是北外環道路所以就由三橫三縱變成了三縱四橫"},{"start":25743.789,"end":25772.644,"text":"那其中啦,這骨架道路都做差不多了啦。我們現在要破通的,就是要有一個破格的地方。那有一些缺口啦,我們要把它彌補起來。在這齁,我昨天早上知道齁,我最近兩星期,我每星期都邀請檸檬院部長到台南去。我們在看台南的一些溝通齁,尤其啊,針對藍科的地方啦。藍科齁,也讓左院長了解,藍科現在大概有9萬多個人。"},{"start":25773.476,"end":25796.303,"text":"那未來短短幾年它會快速增加到數萬個人。藍科的產值啊已經超過足科了。像我剛才所說的,現在是全世界最重要半導體的生產基地啦。AI大力發展,都有在藍科,阿不就在沙崙。所以呢,這個部分呢,李部長有提一個非常好的建議啦。"},{"start":25798.86,"end":25811.479,"text":"臺南市政府應該要針對大南科訂定一個生活圈的道路計畫所以我最近有請李部長幾乎每個禮拜去啦最近我跟李部長有講起"},{"start":25813.203,"end":25821.294,"text":"例如,我們剛才說的烏橋中路,這是南口的一條烏橋中路,它被曾文熙凍掉了。那我們現在做一個橋,讓烏橋中路可以跨越曾文熙。"},{"start":25828.744,"end":25846.672,"text":"同時曾文熙的右岸那條紅色的有一個南40線,他可以延伸到關田,讓曾文熙增加一條走廊,可以讓嘉麗、馬道、關田,這三個地方都有很多藍科的人,住在那裡很好,還是他上班要經過,讓他的溝通更加流暢,不用在那裡洗來洗去。另外,我剛才也說到西港大街的溝通改善,"},{"start":25857.341,"end":25879.167,"text":"市港大橋現在交通非常可怕啦,經過公路總局的統計啦,一套在時上班時間,7點到8點啦,1點鐘內裏,9個車輛手有三千幾台,幾乎是一秒鐘啦,一秒鐘就有一台車9個啦,所以他那個交通啊,已經塞爆了,急需要一個改善的計畫,那這個計畫齁,"},{"start":25882.077,"end":25897.252,"text":"現在臨時政務到交通部已經有定型了。這部分交通部這裡能夠盡快來完成這個西港大橋周邊的交通的改善。還有一個就是國道8號。"},{"start":25898.683,"end":25927.236,"text":"如果院長有時間在台南,在你的台南,你如果遭到國盜包,你可能會看到一個奇蹟啦。國盜有紅色燈的啦,剛才這條啦,全台灣啦。國盜居然跑到一半變成平面道路啦,還有紅綠燈啦,還跟市區的道路這樣拍桿喔,還來到北館。這個部分啊,理事長也有答應,尤其在這個國盜配合在安定這個地方,我們要把它高架,把它縫合起來。"},{"start":25928.854,"end":25938.621,"text":"部裡面也已經同意阿那現在阿我們需要阿總院長喔鼎力的來支持阿不然喔你看這個這都在人口旁邊出入必經之道"},{"start":25939.974,"end":25940.034,"text":"另外﹖"},{"start":25959.489,"end":25985.574,"text":"還有一段就是說國道保法還要再延長,因為在台南市的安安區,國道配合是臨時要進台南市區最重要的一條路,他要進安安區,要進中西區,要進安平,他都要遭國道配合,但國道配合在安安區,他很大的部分都變平面道路,都在停安卸停,那這個部分其實有一個界位,之前有上一個界位來交通部,"},{"start":25986.704,"end":26008.622,"text":"就是這個國土配合你還要再拉長,要讓他可以經過台江大道到岸中路,從新籍過台江大道一直到岸中路,等於說把國道保護再拉長。那這個部分,甚至經費都估算出來了,大概要70幾億的預算。我也請請你們院部長,這條路你了解嗎?國土配合要再拉長這裡。"},{"start":26012.064,"end":26034.482,"text":"我知道這是線型的,線型是一個平面大道,就是平面的台江大道,那如果國道8要,高架要往這邊延伸,整個還要再做一個進一步... 不,它是跟台江大道交叉而已啦。今天就是國,國道8其實它走在台時期線上,你等它就是把國道8,其實它就是這麼高架、這麼平面、這麼高架啦。"},{"start":26035.623,"end":26041.019,"text":"我們剛才還要安定這個平面的部分給他補開嘛另外他還要安安顧料啊你能夠到這裡繼續讓他走啦"},{"start":26042.81,"end":26068.277,"text":"因為他太多平面道路,留在安南區啦。所以變成喔,你如果市區過安南區要去國道保護,你會走很久啦。你在平面道路,你會太久啦。有太多的紅綠燈、太多的交叉路口。這部分喔,這條啊,我們非常重要。我請交通部,這部分喔,趕緊來完成這個會議。施政委已經有一個規劃了,也會送到交通部來。還有一個就是這個台86號。"},{"start":26069.855,"end":26077.197,"text":"台86在首次中議定的時候,有核定台86的重擔就在國有內蒙去。那台86,也讓左院長看了解一下。台86跟剛才的8號都一樣,他就是台86離國道3號就近在咫尺。"},{"start":26092.898,"end":26092.918,"text":"國道3號"},{"start":26116.574,"end":26127.979,"text":"這不應該啦,就不應該那一小段路變成平面道路。這86號應該要給他接力討錢的,國道3號。這在首輪中議會的時候,我們就非常清楚啦。另外,雙區的黃定屋委員對這個案件他也很關心啦。他也幫忙協調地方啦。"},{"start":26136.783,"end":26158.974,"text":"所以這個報文還牽涉到未來台南市及高雄市,兩個直轄市,這也是一個很重要,這個三區的通營的道路。這報文請高農部主評要趕緊來做。也就是說未來台南還有很多像新疆高流道、台港快速道路、六甲外環道路等等,這些都是未來非常重要的交通規劃,所以我跟你說,"},{"start":26161.425,"end":26179.718,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26180.359,"end":26202.456,"text":"昨天委員長了解,台南的鐵路地下化,你應該提到台南的鐵路地下化,現在完全80%。那我們要再延長,因為延長過永康,因為應該說現在是台南最多人,二十幾萬人口的一個行政區。所以鐵路地下化,我一天請李孟彥部長來,把已經討論多年的永康的延伸段,把它確定清楚。"},{"start":26203.237,"end":26231.357,"text":"所以現在醫療喔,鐵路鐵路的沿燈到櫻空車頭100,可以過永康的永大路。另外國立路就是新市啦,新市就開始高架。所以永康的鐵路地下化延伸喔,可以消毒,永康有三個平交道,三個路橋,一個人形地下道可以消毒。你要到新市喔,新市那台鐵高架啦,可以消除新市五個平交道,一個寒洞啦。"},{"start":26231.917,"end":26231.937,"text":"﹚禮負長﹚"},{"start":26246.636,"end":26272.31,"text":"完成這兩個部分,就是用鋼鐵路地下化的延長以及新式鐵路的立體化,這部分請議長等行政院合併而已,請行政院能夠全力來支持。再來就是捷運,因為六都只有台南沒有捷運,你知道嗎?其他五都都有,只有台南沒有捷運。那一天,農業部長到台南,有馬上支持,"},{"start":26276.251,"end":26292.925,"text":"這個幾乎最新的一條黃線的捷運的規劃,因為這個運作也很重要,它在南區、在西區,因為西區過安南區到新吉南區。就是說它在南區、中西區、安平、安南區到新吉區的這個新的捷運。這個規劃案我們都寫,因為你們部長的職責。"},{"start":26296.889,"end":26313.803,"text":"因為台南市的捷運,尤其是最成熟的是藍線,那時候這套算,現在已經保齡已經核定了,高農部核定了,上到行政院,等行政院核定,這保齡是不是請到卓院長進數啊,行政院來完成審定,好不好?"},{"start":26314.643,"end":26330.12,"text":"市政府的基本設計已經完成,交通部也已經抱怨了。那我們現在加速來看看這個內容,那盡速把這個藍線讓他更成熟去執行這個藍線。那其他的還有綠線跟剛剛委員說的黃線,這可行性評估跟相關的作業都在進行當中。"},{"start":26331.324,"end":26332.824,"text":"謝謝林委員謝謝院長下一位請李博毅委員質詢"},{"start":26386.946,"end":26413.016,"text":"請卓院長請卓院長備詢請交通部林部長交通部李部長備詢李委員好請院長我很珍貴的這15分鐘交通部門的質詢各位院長的質詢還是要說明一下為什麼剛剛其他委員在講"},{"start":26413.908,"end":26440.351,"text":"昨天立法院的委員會有四個委員會沒有辦法運作其中最重要一個就是院長你是最受信任的院長大家都信任你所以昨天內政委員會提出要提高罷免門檻要審議的時候因為大家對你的信任所以對這個罷免案大家無法來進行這些討論"},{"start":26442.155,"end":26469.733,"text":"台灣的憲政體制要嘛你對於復議案的結果不滿你可能可以對行政院提出信不信任的案子要嘛你就是接受這個復議案但是現在國會實際的運作不是這樣他就是要當人民投下你立委這一票的時候其實同時人民手上還握有罷免的權利"},{"start":26470.984,"end":26477.816,"text":"你當選了之後你要馬上改變人民罷免的這個權利大家當然不滿啊我們的機制是在另外一個所以我先"},{"start":26478.973,"end":26504.989,"text":"跟院長說明大家是信任你所以我們會繼續捍衛人民罷免的權利所以再有相關的提案民進黨團還是會持續捍衛人民罷免的權利我非常珍貴的時間用了一分半鐘我要趕快來為南部的建設發聲在院長是5月20號就任在5月15號的時候我跟交通委員會去考察了小港機場"},{"start":26506.639,"end":26531.135,"text":"小港機場行政院也非常用心包含我們之前的政府8年的政府其實也提出了兩期要擴張小港機場的建設一共分成兩個階段達到880億包含新的航廈包含航道的北移可是880億院長"},{"start":26533.737,"end":26555.491,"text":"現在南部人要的不是這個說明給你、給院長聽在2019年的時候疫情前小港機場的國際航班到達4000個班次但是在2023年也就是去年度小港機場航班現在目前只恢復到2258次"},{"start":26560.865,"end":26588.427,"text":"我們要的其實不只是多點的航班我們要的還有更大機型的飛機在疫情前小港機場我舉個例好了現在剛好是暑假旺季在疫情前小港機場飛到國人最愛的北海道是用A330的飛機也就是可以搭乘比較多人的雙走道的飛機飛在疫情後北海道還沒有復飛"},{"start":26589.827,"end":26613.415,"text":"在疫情前高雄有一些航班會用A330或者是波音的747來飛但是在疫情後小港機場目前所有航班只剩下單走道飛機我再舉一個例子以華航小港飛東京跟桃園飛東京"},{"start":26615.074,"end":26623.34,"text":"小港飛東京航班現在的承載率是96%桃園飛東京是80%那桃園飛東京三台飛機都是A350小港飛東京都是321都是小飛機"},{"start":26636.109,"end":26660.82,"text":"在我們要大量投資小港機場的這個航廈之前要讓南部人可能出國旅遊甚至未來可能台南高雄已經超越新竹科學園區未來大量商務旅客進駐南部的時候小港機場沒有可以直飛歐美的班機這是我的忠誠目標"},{"start":26662.307,"end":26685.052,"text":"甚至連中型航班A350波音737都沒有這個其實目前不用花錢可以做到的我也跟院長報告你還沒上任的時候我在3月6日在交通委員會質詢華航董事長他跟我說他現在正在買飛機等A350"},{"start":26688.052,"end":26708.006,"text":"在2025年到的時候再來思考要不要到小港機場他跟我說他現在也正在買波音787的飛機等2020、2027年到位的時候再來做整體的思考如果我們要投資如果我們要讓南部的旅客"},{"start":26709.042,"end":26736.284,"text":"有比較方便的中程目標是飛歐美但是有比較方便的像現在短程出了如果要飛三個小時以上的飛機其實用321來飛是不舒服的所以在這邊想要請教院長對於小港機場這一個擴建這一個新航廈的擴建的這一個態度會不會一樣另外我也要建議院長在這個擴建開始之前"},{"start":26736.903,"end":26736.963,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":26755.885,"end":26773.316,"text":"我日前才到桃園機場看第三航廈的進展工程的進展一樣的未來小港機場及機場有這樣的一個擴建的計畫我想行政院同樣的重視我們會全力的支持那至於現在因為我們剛剛我也提到過要開發這個大南方的計畫"},{"start":26774.156,"end":26774.176,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":26790.492,"end":26790.872,"text":"部長,我們說內行一點"},{"start":26818.462,"end":26844.571,"text":"我們說雙走道飛機什麼時候來這個其實除了華航之外我們小雄機場的這些包含機艙的這些停放的優惠我們有蘿蔔也有棍子我們希望可以趕快有雙走道飛機來服務南部的鄉親但是我們更希望在短期內國人南部的所有的旅客或者是商務客比如說"},{"start":26846.607,"end":26865.415,"text":"欸今年又有火星人要來高雄聽演唱會歐美沒有直飛啊還是從桃園桃園轉啊那各種大型的演唱或者是未來南部的這些半導體的產業園區中心商務客還是從桃園轉啊我們希望有一天"},{"start":26866.459,"end":26866.479,"text":"是。"},{"start":26885.373,"end":26885.653,"text":"來下一題。一樣是交通部。在"},{"start":26915.513,"end":26943.002,"text":"德國跟日本對我們臺灣台積電都直接用補助都直接用補助來請這個台積電到去德國跟日本設廠那台積電在南梓他現在設三個廠那預計明年都開始亮廠所以我跟陳其邁市長其實對於南梓跟左雲周邊的這些交通包含軌道的建設我們是非常非常努力的在追"},{"start":26944.025,"end":26967.916,"text":"那現在目前行政院其實也面臨到一個非常難的狀況我剛才坐在底下聽其他委員的質詢每一個人都要跟部長跟院長講一條線那我也一樣我這一條是紫線但是我很擔心的是在前瞻計畫裡面其實高雄有爭取到一條黃線捷運"},{"start":26969.707,"end":26996.626,"text":"共同爭取到黃線捷運在分年編列的這些預算裡面包含113年中央必須補助119億包含114年中央必須補助119億包含115年中央必須補助139億這些可能都是左院長李部長分別要來編列分別要來支持但是在目前花東山法在目前才化法"},{"start":26997.652,"end":27012.974,"text":"畫下去。我不知道行政院對於113、114、115黃線捷運有沒有可能預算縮水影響到黃線捷運的這些進度我很擔心這是第一點院長讓你講一下"},{"start":27014.37,"end":27033.671,"text":"謝謝委員因為過去前瞻基礎建設確實幫助地方做了很多重要的公共建設那未來我們在預算編列過程當中如果盡量朝不編列特別預算的方式走的話那我們會炒到一大塊特別預算也少掉過去的前瞻基礎建設那前瞻第5期剩下700億"},{"start":27035.913,"end":27057.227,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":27057.407,"end":27057.427,"text":"議員發言"},{"start":27079.431,"end":27095.767,"text":"二十五個二十四個車站地下七站那可能高價有十七站那總經費可能是需要一千八百八十四億當然這不是整段因為後面還有佛光山段等等的這個還沒有納入是只有從"},{"start":27097.088,"end":27109.796,"text":"高雄醫學大學接民族路這一段踩地下往北到榮總這一段踩地下再往左邊往西到高鐵站這一串也踩地下"},{"start":27110.612,"end":27132.145,"text":"通過高鐵之後要進入右昌地區要進入高雄大學地區要進入橋頭科學園區要進入包含我們的大學學園區這一段採高價一共需要1884億在捷運黃線的例子裡面在我們在推動捷運黃線的過程裡面捷運黃線從"},{"start":27134.636,"end":27138.001,"text":"19年通過可行性評估到2022年實際動工一共花了大概5年的時間。"},{"start":27145.117,"end":27165.514,"text":"我們希望在捷運子線通過可行性評估之後我們在環評上面我們就要來努力希望可以縮短兩年的時間希望可以在一年多的時間就可以達到環境影響評估那也希望後面的細部設計等等的動工等等都可以如期都可以順利的在2028、2029的時候順利動工這是我們希望"},{"start":27170.325,"end":27195.401,"text":"所以剛剛部長講的這個預算我還要跟你加1884億部長捷運紫縣他其實是從南紫從現在台積電高鐵一路會服務到含捷運黃線會服務到三個醫療園區包含長庚醫院包含高雄醫學院包含榮總甚至包含義大"},{"start":27196.434,"end":27218.139,"text":"那會包含七所大學那會包含橋頭科學園區跟台積電男子產業園區這麼重要產值那麼高的一條捷運線我也希望到時候在環境影響評估等等的那可以獲得行政院大量的支持這條線我也邀請院長跟部長來看看"},{"start":27219.277,"end":27240.339,"text":"這個只限希望市政府、高雄市政府能夠儘速完成這個可行性評估。已經快出來了。那出來以後我們就請交通部、議程去辦理,我們進出來看。但是剛剛委員提到我們如果將來也沒有特別預算,前瞻預算也用完了,那將來在整個公共建設的預算當中無法這樣的膨脹的話,恐怕很多時程會往後延。"},{"start":27241.209,"end":27267.832,"text":"這是我們擔心的。對,所以中央如果再沒有保持這種彈性靈活的財政的能力的話,那往後延的可能性是相當不可預測。臺灣的政治體制,中央院長就是要有能力,足夠的能力去佈局未來臺灣發展的方向。臺灣未來發展方向包含半導體,包含AI也有可能來高雄。這一些佈局要把人引來最重要的交通建設,我也希望院長可以加強這個佈局。"},{"start":27269.381,"end":27294.46,"text":"也請委員支持我們中央保持這種彈性有能力的財政能力,我們就能夠均衡臺灣最需要的地方去,但這個也會顧及到各縣市的公平性,請大家放心。會啦,高雄值得投資。最後,男子交流道引道在李孟淵部長4月27號還陪同陳建仁前院長來視察包含鐵路地下化,"},{"start":27295.06,"end":27296.721,"text":"接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員、張宏祿委員聯合質詢,詢答時間30分鐘。"},{"start":27337.816,"end":27345.683,"text":"主席,麻煩請卓院長跟交通部理部長。好,卓院長、交通部理部長請備詢。委員,張委員好。你好。委員好。不知道你知不知道,我們中央"},{"start":27359.794,"end":27362.935,"text":"道歉我還沒有看到確實的日期"},{"start":27384.266,"end":27413.201,"text":"李部長應該很清楚因為你對台北縣的事情新北市的事情很了解這個題外變道就一段接一段現在就是從新莊的這個鐵路橋到樹林的三家之間這一段幾乎全部都是中央的經費那是委託新北市政府做一些工程7月18號現在我看到的資料是早上9點半要做啟用典禮他沒有邀請院長"},{"start":27415.681,"end":27442.487,"text":"還不是沒有邀請院長而已沒有邀請小弟在下我這樣子的狀況這個只是一個個案像這個禮拜啊新北市環狀捷運線信福站旁邊的這個信福停車場經費由中央大量補助用前瞻基礎預算的建設的預算是"},{"start":27443.732,"end":27471.106,"text":"本席很努力的爭取三個停車場之一新莊的三個停車場之一啟用典禮一樣沒有邀請立法委員就是市政府就自己辦了就算了然後好像我們都是無視人一樣根本都沒有關係一樣我是在想說這樣子的狀況一直發生在我們的身上我們到底是我們很努力的在為地方爭取"},{"start":27472.199,"end":27497.244,"text":"地方該有的這些建設跟該有的這些設施結果只要經費給他給市政府然後他完工之後我相信他沒有通知本席應該也沒有通知交通部吧還是交通部有收到這個啟用典禮的邀請嗎目前我這邊沒有收到已經辦完了對沒有收到那個停車場的啟用典禮已經辦完了沒有收到邀請"},{"start":27498.703,"end":27519.73,"text":"所以很多我們中央的預算補助地方是應該給地方錢讓地方有可以好好的建設當然是福國利民對我們新莊有很大的幫助問題是沒有人會講說這是中央進了多少努力中央的民意代表進了多少的努力"},{"start":27520.714,"end":27533.63,"text":"全部都被一刀切因為你的工程委託他辦之後他自己完工之後全部都是他自己的宣傳全部都他的功勞跟我們都沒有關係一樣這樣的狀況一再的發生"},{"start":27536.888,"end":27561.293,"text":"我舉了這幾個例子只是聽得到了所以我是在想說這中間是出了什麼問題交通部給錢之後就算了嗎中間給錢之後就算了嗎沒有跟他講說你啟用的時候或是說你要如果假設你要辦一個動工典禮做這些典禮儀式的時候都不用通知都不用邀請了還是你們這一方面都沒有在列管都沒有在沒有在要求"},{"start":27562.13,"end":27563.011,"text":"對,如果是大筆的錢動輒幾十億的經費那中央補助了"},{"start":27590.233,"end":27615.306,"text":"你好歹要啟用的時候你通知一聲那中央如果說跟你表達說啊對不起我那天有重要的公務所以我沒辦法去我派一個代表去那OK啊問題是他都不告訴你捏像我剛剛講的這個東西已經都辦完了你也不知道然後協助爭取經費的委員也應該要邀請新北市議員去啦那新北市議員回來跟我講說會中全部都是蔣新北市政府做的"},{"start":27617.022,"end":27626.279,"text":"他也不去講說中央補助了多少錢中央的民意代表爭取了多少錢然後把所有的功勞全部都歸給地方還歸給地方特定的議員"},{"start":27628.523,"end":27628.683,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":27658.295,"end":27680.804,"text":"議員長跟部長,其實像中央補助,像我們現在也有很多人行道的改善工程,也都是中央的。其實地方他拿到錢之後,他擅自變更原來的設計。我們中央也管不著。我之前質詢也就是說我們這種問題,中央應該要一個管控的機制。"},{"start":27681.499,"end":27681.739,"text":"﹚行政院"},{"start":27704.525,"end":27723.887,"text":"在全台灣這個人行道的安全什麼這跟交通都有關的如果我們都沒有去做一個管控的話對不對好處不會留到行政院我們要的也不是好處但是他的變更設計跟原來設計不同這中間就是會有問題而且"},{"start":27725.171,"end":27754.061,"text":"為什麼要變更設計而且他變更設計補助單位竟然都沒有智慧的餘地我覺得這個法令可能我們要修改一下要去了解一下好這樣不行請這個交通部還有內政部還有交通部的公路總局我們現在對於入口的改善會有一個到年底有一個相當明確的計畫一定要落實剛剛委員所說的這樣的情況我們來改進這個事實院長我覺得是要跟你講這個不是只有在交通方面其實在社會福利方面也是啊T-Plus"},{"start":27755.014,"end":27779.286,"text":"在北台灣從桃園一直到基隆一千兩百塊只要那幾項的公共運輸都吃到飽對不對以前沒有太多使用者不知道這錢是中央補助的因為他都以為這是地方政府的政策那我舉這樣的例子是要跟你講說我們很認真在做這是對啦但是有時候在外面被掛了"},{"start":27783.953,"end":27792.667,"text":"阿你也好歹反應一下因為這會影響到最後他為什麼宣傳勒選舉的時候講說我們的民意代表都沒有在做事阿他最後的結論就是這樣阿"},{"start":27797.281,"end":27826.148,"text":"各位報告現在那個TPAS的那個卡我們都有要求上面要有一個印製這個是行政院是我知道那是因為後面有被反映的這個事情之後才開始這樣做嘛那在之前還有一些譬如說我們發那個六千塊直接就是說行政院入帳讓你的帳戶上面看得到誰做的是誰做的我們清楚啦我們清楚民眾不一定清楚所以像我舉這個例子"},{"start":27827.529,"end":27848.559,"text":"新莊現在除了西順、九里之外所有的中央民意代表、區議員就是我啊那中央補助的費用我不敢說完全都是我爭取的,大部分是我爭取的啊但是他從來就不講最後選舉的時候用黨派的意見就告訴你說新莊的立委都沒有在做事"},{"start":27850.554,"end":27876.087,"text":"這個對我們是非常的不公道那同樣的他可以這樣講說同樣的言下之意是你中央政府也都沒有在做事補助的錢變成白送給他了那我覺得這是要不得我們時事求是本來大家是一個中華民國是一個團隊大家一起做事誰做的就說誰做的誰出多少就誰出多少誰努力了什麼就努力了什麼"},{"start":27877.585,"end":27884.391,"text":"所以我的意思是說如果你有大量款項的補助的時候要求這些單位要追蹤啦而不是他拿去了完成了然後就跟我們沒有關係了拿去了就跟我們沒有關係了不可以這個樣子"},{"start":27904.471,"end":27933.242,"text":"像我剛剛講的那個題外變道的連接全部的費用99%以上都是中央出的就他7月18日早上9點半要辦啟用典禮你沒有接到通知啊我也沒有接到邀請啊地方上的人講說你看市政府又來幫我們做了一個這麼偉大的建設這個建設當初蘇貞昌院長有新聞給新北市政府新北市政府說交通上不是最優先所以他不出錢"},{"start":27934.659,"end":27949.009,"text":"所以最後百分之百變成我們是中央政府出錢的結果中央政府全部出錢之後現在啟用典禮他來辦新北市政府來辦院也沒有邀請中央民意代表也沒有邀請這個完全是我看這個百分之百真的在我背後的行為我們這麼努力爭取了幾、多少年前就開始在講"},{"start":27962.745,"end":27983.794,"text":"然後行政院最後在蘇貞昌院長的時候問他說新北市政府願不願意做這條路要不要來大家來協調要怎麼開要支出經費的時候他跟你講說不是優先的交通建設項目他一毛錢都不出欸這個張宏路委員也可以作證啊事實上就是這樣啊結果他7月16號辦啟用典禮了他完全不通知我們"},{"start":27986.417,"end":28012.037,"text":"我現在回到因為我是地方選出的民意代表我們還是要講地方有幾個事情做得不錯希望繼續能加強第一個就是五股交流道的改善他現在的工程有超出進度進度是26點多但現在已經進行到30點多了希望交通部能夠繼續加油這個要到116年的4月完工"},{"start":28012.757,"end":28041.937,"text":"可是這個如果能夠提早完工對地方是莫大的功德了。這一件事情做得很好,但是溫子郡從化學區馬上土地再過兩年就會分發下來,就開始建設,人口又會增加非常的多了。所以五股交流道改善了一部分,問題是絕對問題會繼續不斷。我們應該要想辦法來思考這個全台灣最交通最擁擠的交流道,"},{"start":28042.757,"end":28059.319,"text":"有沒有泰山那一方面可不可以另外再弄一個引道之前一直有這樣的提案跟提議但是好幾個方案都一直被認為不可行就是說他不符合這個道路跟交流道的設計部長可不可以再想想辦法再想看看"},{"start":28060.987,"end":28075.685,"text":"是,謝謝委員的鼓勵,我想五股交流道確實是一個很艱鉅的工程,因為這麼大的交通量,又要一邊通車,一邊行車,一邊要試工,那非常的不容易,因為有很多的改道等等的交通維持。"},{"start":28076.186,"end":28097.142,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28097.462,"end":28098.343,"text":"這就是我要問的第二個問題"},{"start":28121.66,"end":28137.091,"text":"這個台65南向在新莊我一直主張要增加第二個出口事實上這個也都研究也都納入說預計即將要發包了希望能夠順利能夠做但是你也是一樣錢給他他怎麼做"},{"start":28138.029,"end":28142.192,"text":"我希望能夠盡量幫我們看緊那個時程因為時間就是對我們來講非常大的壓力再來我今天為什麼跟張鴻路委員聯合質詢一個問題就是我們有一個泰山到板橋的這個捷運那現在叫做泰板輕軌"},{"start":28165.219,"end":28173.385,"text":"可是我是要跟你說在一個大都市裡面經過人口這麼稠密的地方板橋跟新莊跟泰山人口加起來一百多萬"},{"start":28174.935,"end":28200.425,"text":"結果他是要用輕軌的方式這個是事實上引起地方上面想說如果你長遠的時間來看你不應該用這麼小的運量這是第一個問題第二個問題我們新莊的後港跟西盛地區就是南新莊的後港跟西盛十幾萬的人口沒有一條軌道運送也沒有捷運"},{"start":28202.448,"end":28222.44,"text":"我的主張是在跟塔寮坑溪的交接的地方這個太阪捷運這個地方要走塔寮坑溪的路廊跟走到潭底溝最後就是走溪盛跟後港的中間最後走到監理站樹林的監理站接這個"},{"start":28224.014,"end":28251.69,"text":"關大樹林縣這樣可以路軌可以連接的起來而且可以服務西森跟後港新莊地區這十幾萬的人口這個案子啊新北市政府目前只有說他是後續的計畫希望交通部能不能考量我們地方十幾萬人口的需要那剛好就是在我跟蘇巧慧委員的這個選區的中間那這一個地方十幾萬人都沒有沒有任何的這個"},{"start":28253.352,"end":28280.428,"text":"這個軌道運輸也沒有捷運的這個服務希望是不是這一方面可以幫我們考量加強市政府如果他的動作不夠快交通部如何跟他指導如何跟他協助讓他能夠對我們這個地方的需要這條有一個很大的好處如果能夠跟這個河流共構的話當然基礎啦他如果建在河流的上面基本上不用多少拆遷就可以把這條路可以做起來"},{"start":28281.5,"end":28306.197,"text":"以上這是我的主張跟建議希望院長跟部長能夠支持這個還要地方新北市政府做很多的規劃包括系統的形式新北市還在過規劃而且對一些這個路廊條件新北市好像還沒有做最後的決定犧牲到這個板橋射後這一段其中當中的我這一段是後港犧牲支線張豪路那一段是"},{"start":28307.097,"end":28308.539,"text":"在大台北地區十幾萬的人口沒有任何的捷運可以用"},{"start":28325.72,"end":28326.36,"text":"部長跟院長,其實啊"},{"start":28349.394,"end":28349.414,"text":" ﹝廣告"},{"start":28368.081,"end":28382.35,"text":"新北市政府還給我們之前交通部拿了多少規劃設計經費的補助去了。也是我有協助爭取的。他錢都拿了。為什麼他辭職不核定?因為去年在選舉啦。"},{"start":28384.09,"end":28406.982,"text":"他不想造成選舉的變成中央立法委員有去爭取就是這麼簡單所以他遲遲的在那邊拖選舉也過了我覺得交通部我們補助了他這麼多而且這個從涉後到犧牲支線那時候交通部連中央補助多少錢什麼的全部都算出來了"},{"start":28407.822,"end":28424.631,"text":"然後呢他的西部他用什麼車型然後路幅多少都很詳細都出來了而且新北市政府的評估他也已經都有預留這個支線未來的這個"},{"start":28426.276,"end":28443.822,"text":"通車的話他的如何去運轉還有包括他車輛要購買多少其實都留有伏筆都有了總之就是因為政治的因素所以脫惡了那我覺得啦交通部我們補助的新北市有這麼多而且這一個講白了"},{"start":28444.602,"end":28465.19,"text":"就是政治因素遲遲他他他不那時候不想核定而已那時機已過我覺得交通部我覺得啦跟新北市政府溝通欸交通部要錢給新北市新北市竟然拒絕我覺得這個應該要大聲講出來啊啊不然新北市每天在跟你們講財化法在你們跟你們講說補助他不夠"},{"start":28466.03,"end":28476.817,"text":"那這一條交通部就之前都已經說好了錢都出來了是新北市遲遲不報公文來而已這點我們應該可以大聲講阿"},{"start":28496.01,"end":28522.726,"text":"我講的中運量是指是泰山到板橋這一條要用比較大的運量至於我們的支線我就沒有那麼高的要求因為我們也不想地方要拆遷很多的既有的建築物包括人民的房子跟土地啊所以為什麼我主張這一條走塔寮根西走潭堤溝的上面因為這樣幾乎就不用去拆遷既有的這個房屋了"},{"start":28523.462,"end":28538.712,"text":"一樣在我們社會地區交通部規劃出來的路線也是幾乎不用拆房子什麼都已經出來了就只是擦心北市政府說這個他的一個公文而已那我覺得這一點我們要拜託部長"},{"start":28539.875,"end":28563.107,"text":"新北市一天到晚在說你不補助他什麼的那這一條我們早就有補助了是他遲遲不報公文你也要大聲說給新北市民聽啊我們板橋社會地區十幾萬人口沒有捷運這對板橋的交通啊這衝擊很大啦我覺得這一點要拜託部長啦部長你覺得勒"},{"start":28563.618,"end":28582.606,"text":"是,我想這個武泰輕軌那一直延伸到板橋可以說是另外一個環狀線的一個外環那我覺得而且他連絡好幾個既有的這個捷運可以把它串聯在一起所以我覺得他是有很好的這個轉乘或者接駁的這個效應"},{"start":28583.306,"end":28605.933,"text":"那現在怎麼樣讓延伸線還有包括支線可以讓新北市這邊趕快的來啟動相關的這個可行性的規劃這個我們來協調讓他趕快的把這個規劃進行然後核定那第二個就是現在是採輕軌那是不是考慮用重運量才能來滿足未來的這個運量我們會再跟會再詳細的做這個運量的一個評估"},{"start":28611.639,"end":28630.961,"text":"剛剛張委員講的齁我要提醒你齁他說新北市政府常常在那邊complain說中央對他的補助是少的虧待了他其實不是這樣子真實不是這樣你去給他算一算包括環狀縣各個捷運縣萬大處林縣山陰縣這些補助加起來的金額是非常大的我們是希望"},{"start":28632.369,"end":28656.901,"text":"真的有給他補助那麼多就具體的統計出來不要每天被他吃豆腐說什麼我們都沒有在照顧新北市所以這一點也是希望你們要努力的要很會做事但是也要把東西講得清清楚楚不要被他占了便宜然後他得了便宜還賣乖你部長把統計數字送給委員要參考送給我之外要讓社會大眾能夠知道"},{"start":28658.266,"end":28681.903,"text":"我們的意思是說新北市政府常常在穿我們中央政府的小鞋都說我們補助他沒有補助很少我覺得這個應該也要大聲講我們剛剛講的這個事後跟犧牲支線這個其實都已經規劃得很詳細了就是只差他自己公文不報來而已那我剛剛已經講了什麼原因了這點"},{"start":28683.544,"end":28707.618,"text":"交通部也應該要講啊交通部本來就準備好了是你新北市政府的行政帶舵你新北市政府你是對不起新莊跟板橋的市民啊我覺得這一點應該要講啊讓新北市政府不然他都跟地方講說沒有啦交通部又沒有錢要給我們這樣子背黑鍋又是我們行政院交通部"},{"start":28708.693,"end":28723.33,"text":"謝謝委員今天有機會讓交通部來說明這個清楚,我想以後要特別注意,我們已經有計畫的拖延時間下來了,一定對地方造成不便,我們應該主動去爭取說明的機會,或是要求地方政府來加速配合的這個時程。"},{"start":28726.82,"end":28747.296,"text":"另外部長,進勞卡的點數從去年開始可以做台鐵,但現在不是全台灣每個縣市都可以做台鐵。我不知道部長你知不知道其他縣市還沒有開始的原因是什麼?"},{"start":28749.977,"end":28775.291,"text":"我知道目前已經有14個縣市有加入敬老卡搭乘台鐵的措施那其他還沒有進來的部分我想我們會再請台鐵跟這些縣市來溝通看怎麼樣讓他們知道有這樣的一個機制那可以讓他們的長輩這些縣市的長輩能夠有更優惠更好的交通工具來提供服務"},{"start":28776.915,"end":28788.773,"text":"另外部長你支不支持台鐵都可以搭了高鐵可不可以也開放敬老卡讓我們的長者也可以用點數去抵扣去搭高鐵"},{"start":28790.657,"end":28807.739,"text":"高鐵因為他的金額比較大他可能一趟或是半趟就把敬老卡的金額都用完他的意思就是這樣子啊用完就用完了剩下的就是補現金啊他們現在計程車的搭乘在地方上他一直給你50塊"},{"start":28809.258,"end":28816.144,"text":"府長錢多少是一件事情給長者方便又是一件事情這筆錢本來就是他們可以用的你如果開放的多他就可以用的多我簡單舉一個才不會剩下的到下個月就不見了你先聽我講齁"},{"start":28836.101,"end":28858.973,"text":"你說錢不夠,那我們以臺灣搭台鐵的,屏東一個月500點。部長,500點高鐵如果從屏東,他至少從高雄坐到台中應該有了吧?因為他本來就是半票啊,他坐到台中應該有了吧?剩下的他其他他自己補就好了啊。"},{"start":28859.95,"end":28879.662,"text":"對不對我覺得這一個錢多少我覺得你只要開放人家就會用而且部長你知不知道像高雄市政府他們已經有在研擬這一個進勞卡的這一個不要每個月每個月算他是用一年來"},{"start":28881.483,"end":28900.076,"text":"來算的因為我們政府的預算本來就是編一年啊地方議會也都通過這筆預算啊那你都通過一年的預算了你還是讓人家很不好使用高雄市政府有在研擬這個我不知道部長你知不知道啊其實如果他這樣子可以做的話"},{"start":28901.226,"end":28923.539,"text":"我們只要花一筆錢改善這個路口的那個雜票的那個設計改一下就好了所以我才會提出這個所以我覺得部長我認為啦應該也可以是嘗試的去開放讓人家搭高鐵你看我剛講的500塊"},{"start":28925.62,"end":28944.307,"text":"人家是一個月五百塊呢?那如果人家高雄是可以累積一整年,反正他用完就沒有了啊,對不對?也政府沒有多支出一毛錢。政府的預算沒有多支出喔,對不對?那他就好使用啊。那人家高雄如果是一年的話,人家他搭兩趟"},{"start":28945.955,"end":28945.975,"text":"﹚高鐵"},{"start":28975.635,"end":28976.055,"text":"部長可以搭台鐵是我"},{"start":28994.135,"end":29019.923,"text":"從上一屆我努力了4年本來台鐵也是有很多想法我後來就說你就把這一個機制把它建立起來人家要的縣市就會主動加入了高鐵我認為也是一樣其實他只要改這個他驗票的這個程式沒有花多少錢你把這一個可以用的這一個機具這個把它"},{"start":29021.958,"end":29048.149,"text":"這個平台你把它用好我跟你講人家有的縣市的人人家就會主動來了那你沒有的縣市我跟你講那他自己要要去承擔他的責任彼此會比較對啊彼此會比較他自己會去承擔所以我會覺得就是說讓台鐵跟高鐵都可以搭這個才對我我們的長輩是一個好處沒有花多花政府一毛錢那只要協調高鐵"},{"start":29049.531,"end":29053.433,"text":"我很願意站在委員的立場為長輩來設想讓他們提高他們的活動力所以我們這個朝多元而且靈活運用的方向跟相關的單位來做協調謝謝"},{"start":29073.07,"end":29094.504,"text":"對啦,院長我為什麼會特別提這個,其實各縣市政府認真做的,有的進勞卡都可以去搭計程車了,也可以有的可以去租借腳踏車了,有的甚至這個那個什麼運動的中心什麼他都可以開放了,那我們中央政府我們如果基於"},{"start":29095.766,"end":29116.147,"text":"關心長者的角度我們主動去把高鐵的這一個驗票的系統我們去補助他一點錢也好讓他去建制這樣我跟你講就會有縣市可以搭了啦之前台鐵一直在講說啊怎樣怎樣我後來我生氣我說你就花一筆錢你把它用好"},{"start":29117.13,"end":29121.972,"text":"非常謝謝委員的建議雖然這涉及部分涉及到地方的自治事項跟地方政府的財政規劃但是我想交通部積極來協調這個事情"},{"start":29145.555,"end":29147.235,"text":"謝謝兩位委員,謝謝卓院長。報告院會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":29379.65,"end":29380.998,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":29435.401,"end":29436.323,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":29539.599,"end":29542.09,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":29833.86,"end":29834.901,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會,請蘇委員巧會質詢。謝謝主席,我們請卓院長。請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":29864.407,"end":29880.042,"text":"院長好,院長剛剛我們聽了這個張宏祿委員和吳秉瑞委員的聯合質詢了,確實新北的交通問題真的是很多,因為我們需要的建設確確實實是非常的多。其實如果院長"},{"start":29880.883,"end":29904.795,"text":"知道其實你對我們新北也是有夠熟那尤其今天部長在這裡更是我們以前臺北縣這個資深的官員嗎那你看新北市的人口呢如果普查起來就有403萬常住人口更是436萬這麼多的人口如果用密度來講的話雙北一起看前五個密集最高的區裡面四個都是我們新北的啊不管是這個"},{"start":29905.555,"end":29908.997,"text":"我給院長這邊我用了一張圖來表示你看我去用Google Map他來看的這張圖是星期一早上8點半"},{"start":29933.612,"end":29936.335,"text":"的這個雙北的狀況,部長這樣的圖齁,你應該有常常看Google Map吧,應該有看過嘛齁,院長應該也有看過,應該能夠理解紅色的線是什麼意思?"},{"start":29944.892,"end":29947.473,"text":"我自己在看新北交通問題的時候我是把它舒緩成為是一個這樣的同心圓來讓"},{"start":29974.723,"end":29991.533,"text":"大家彼此好溝通。我的同心園理論是這樣,如果是臺北市是第一圈的話,那麼依著剛剛說的人口稠密度以及地理位置的話,我們顯然可以有第一圈,就是板橋、三重、新莊、中友河等等,"},{"start":29992.133,"end":30020.352,"text":"那還有外面的第二圈那他們的問題其實會都不一樣比如說以靠近台北市的第一圈的話他最需要的就是直接進入台北市的聯絡道路嘛就是跨河進去台北市不管你是用什麼樣的方法反正讓我過了河進到台北市可以上班上學這樣就好可是第二圈的話他就還加上了要如何移動到第一圈才能再往台北市前進"},{"start":30021.172,"end":30045.501,"text":"所以第二圈連第一圈的道路對我們來講就非常非常的重要這甚至包括了你在設計快速道路的時候如果能夠有像剛剛秉瑞委員在說的不管是國道一號的交流道也好或者是快速道路的新莊的這種他的閘道能夠增加也好對我們來講其實都是第二圈和第一圈之間能夠再多有"},{"start":30046.061,"end":30050.064,"text":"第三類的問題是如果我們能夠把這個第二圈的這個部分就像我現在列的這邊齁是林口、巴黎啊或者是我自己土樹山陰等等這一些地方"},{"start":30069.138,"end":30084.974,"text":"﹗"},{"start":30085.074,"end":30108.82,"text":"那其實對於不但我們彼此之間的交通可以快速而且對於舒緩前面第一圈的交通流量當然也是大幅減輕這個道理也是非常非常清楚這完全沒有問題吧好那我們就回到實際例子來看我必須在這裡齁我先在這裡啦先在這裡感謝行政院這幾年對我們新北的建設我就以"},{"start":30109.6,"end":30133.928,"text":"我自己的選區遭遇的例子也就是公路體系符合今天我要質詢的題目公路體系來講我必須說這兩條交通建設對我們來講非常非常的有效像是台65這個快速道路增設一個福州橋閘道這個地方這個地方全部的預算4.7億全部都是中央出的啊"},{"start":30134.755,"end":30156.291,"text":"但同樣一個快速道路就因為增設了這樣一個閘道我每次這樣往返的時間可以少20分鐘以上這個車程是整個地方大家都撐到的部分因為它就有效疏解了我們的第二類問題嘛我們不用再進到進到第一圈裡面我們第二圈自己就可以處理了這就是舒緩好"},{"start":30157.772,"end":30181.785,"text":"還有另外環快道路就是剛剛吳秉瑞有人在在的提到這個所謂要通車新北市政府到底有沒有邀請中央的這個部分這一條我們這個環口的快速道路即將通車也是中央政府不但從規劃一直到預算是全部都是中央出的這一條呢更是大大了解決了"},{"start":30182.725,"end":30208.088,"text":"我們新莊、樹林、英哥這種外圈的串聯之外當然也疏解了如何進去第一圈進到臺北市這樣的交通問題所以這兩項建設都大獲好評那用這樣的例子我今天既然院長你也完全認同我剛剛的說法我剛剛花了5分鐘的時間在跟你溝通這個而且也實力給你看了"},{"start":30208.809,"end":30231.989,"text":"那麼今天我有兩項,是不是請院長這邊可以在備詢臺正式的承諾吼。那第一個就是我們的林口到巴黎的105號這個市道的部分。如果用剛剛的這個同心園來看,其實這條是林口到巴黎之間喔。因為它的山路很崎嶇嘛,其實路況很差。如果這個地方的市道能夠做起來,"},{"start":30233.15,"end":30233.43,"text":"市政府這邊"},{"start":30255.775,"end":30270.523,"text":"應該是也有做了爭取了啦所以我雖然雖然我現在我們收到了陳情我們來一起協助爭取畢竟我是新北市的委員嘛那院這邊是不是可以支持我們這樣的一個計畫如同以前支持其他的計畫一樣"},{"start":30272.264,"end":30286.709,"text":"謝謝蘇委員剛剛所提到的我想行政院過去以來到現在不會看地方執政是誰當然建設是一體的國家是大家的對新北市的補助規劃也都相當好也得到大家的肯定也謝謝委員在各地的爭取"},{"start":30287.649,"end":30304.208,"text":"剛剛提到105號的道路我們過去在看淡江大橋的時候有約略提到這個部分所以我說有時間我們可以再去看一下到底現場現在到了什麼程度未來需要交通部做一些什麼的努力我們來看看綠條是非常非常的有需要啦"},{"start":30304.588,"end":30334.208,"text":"但是因為我們都知道他的公法是比較難一點所以金額也很大我們在這裡期待的是吼我們已經不是第一次關心這也不是在這裡才開始關心嘛就是因為金額大然後所以我們需要的補助多不但需要行政院的核定而且希望補助的金額能夠越多越好所以我在這裡再一次跟行政院爭取我們認為這條是有需要的對新北市是重要的所以我們希望這條行政院能夠盡速核定"},{"start":30336.128,"end":30356.394,"text":"這一條確實是可以讓林口新市鎮這一帶包括龜山很多產業他的包括卡車他的包括車輛往西濱往淡江大橋往這個桃園機場的運送他不是只有這一段的消費而他是延伸到整個區塊所以"},{"start":30358.234,"end":30384.41,"text":"即便現在錢看起來多,但是我覺得它的效益是無遠弗屆的,所以這條實在要請中央大力支持。所以這不只是一圈一段的問題嘛,這是第一個。第二個是我更熟悉的,也就是剛剛說的台65號快速道路的部分。過去我們爭取的是福州橋閘道,一個閘道的部分。但是眼看著,其實台65它單負的功能其實非常非常的大。"},{"start":30384.87,"end":30413.874,"text":"所以現在呢我們在提出另外一段的計畫就是他本來是從板橋開始嘛然後一路延伸到了土城我們現在是不是有機會可以再把它再延展下去甚至到桃園的龍潭也就是變成現在大家希望能夠爭取的板龍快速道路從台65變成板龍我想這一段增加的這一段其實也是舒緩了剛剛我說的第四類的問題就是我們的第二圈能夠跟其他的地方就台北市以外的地方的"},{"start":30414.514,"end":30415.134,"text":"先請部長講一下進度"},{"start":30435.224,"end":30460.231,"text":"我想現在如果大家行經這個北二高從龍潭一直到中和特別是從大概英哥到中和這一段非常的塞如果這個板農能夠做那讓板橋到這個龍潭這一段有一個第二條這個相關的聯絡的這個快速道路我想對整個疏解北二高這邊的塞車通勤等等的這個"},{"start":30461.131,"end":30462.512,"text":"方便性可以增加很多"},{"start":30482.486,"end":30507.689,"text":"我們在爭取建設的心情還是是一樣的對新北是好的我們都一樣向行政院爭取相信行政院也會給我們最大的支持跟鼓勵啦所以我們希望有計畫的就趕快核定有補助就給我們最多的是跟委員報告也把這一條列入大細股桃竹廟大細股裡面的重要的一個交通很好預計明年的4月3月到4月就可以提出相關的期中報告"},{"start":30508.089,"end":30534.835,"text":"好,非常好。我們希望整個會越快越好。甚至是我在這裡也要求交通部,是不是可以就新北市已經有的,剛剛在說的,不管您剛剛有聽到,不然剛剛聽到我說的幾類的問題嘛。我認為如果還有機會可以增設,增設公路系統,把公路網串接起來的,我都希望能夠再討論,我們來規劃,並且來繼續支持。所以不然如果有在研議中的計畫,我希望能夠我的辦公室可以得到一份這樣的資料。好。"},{"start":30536.455,"end":30554.423,"text":"這是關於公路網的部分,但是喔,院長,我也剛也跟你提到了,因為新北市就是繞著臺北市這樣的幾個圈圈,可是那個第一圈來講,它的人口稠密實在是太多了,稠密度太高了,高到其實已經沒有空間可以再蓋新的路,這就是我們的現況。"},{"start":30555.663,"end":30561.548,"text":"所以我想來想去真的要解決交通擁捨的問題其實還是必須靠大眾運輸啦好可是你來看喔我們去調查了這些資料來看這幾年新北市的這個公共運輸狀況啊其實反而連疫情前的狀況都還沒有回復到喔"},{"start":30573.598,"end":30596.973,"text":"沒有回復到疫情前搭乘的狀況,更不要說越來越好,完全沒有,連疫情前的都還沒有。你看現在111年搭乘公共運輸是有史以來最低的,然後呢用私人運具是最高的。大眾運輸呢公車的運量路線長度6年成長了10%但是搭公車的人數6年萎縮了7%"},{"start":30600.273,"end":30602.917,"text":"現在的使用公車的人次只有2300多萬。109年的時候還有2500萬。你覺得這是什麼問題啊?"},{"start":30610.862,"end":30615.603,"text":"我想疫情期間因為大家不鼓勵大家在群聚在一個密閉空間所以那時候的運量包括公車包括捷運也都下跌"},{"start":30635.087,"end":30654.038,"text":"現在疫情之後捷運高鐵大概陸續都有回升台鐵也有回升那唯獨公車還是比去年比疫情前大概還是下跌了我覺得作為一個新北市民我坦白講啦我們搭大眾運輸的比例沒有台北市民高就是因為他的路網不夠方便"},{"start":30654.878,"end":30681.098,"text":"他沒有像台北市民這樣我可能走出去很大一部分的人走出去沒多久就有公車就有捷運我們其實可能要走很久那還不如騎一台摩托車我算給部長跟院長聽如果是我我樹林喔我們坐火車到台北上班單程票是18元一天36元一個月用25天上班好了那就是900塊可是你的T-pass呢目前是1200塊錢"},{"start":30683.246,"end":30699.954,"text":"所以等於是我如果都只能認真上班我沒有出去玩我沒有用到其他的方面其實我買T-pass不會合啦那如果我是三重人我平常是騎我平常是坐公車的好了我平常是坐公車去台北上班三重人到台北公車一段15塊錢嘛"},{"start":30701.215,"end":30716.373,"text":"那15塊上下班30塊一個月25天那更是只要750塊啊所以對我們來講TPAS雖然聽起來很不錯但實際換算以後好像沒有說真的很划算"},{"start":30716.934,"end":30736.954,"text":"所以又不夠方便不夠離我家近錢好像也沒有多省那我為什麼會選擇大眾運輸呢所以我想來想去我想在這裡很誠摯的建議行政院TPOS有沒有可能設計2.0版本他的起因是為了鼓勵更多人使用大眾運輸系統"},{"start":30738.135,"end":30738.335,"text":"院長你怎麼看?"},{"start":30755.742,"end":30769.187,"text":"謝謝委員,我們昨天在院會曾經對過這個公路客運的系統在一後沒有預期的這樣回復做了一個報告案其中對於公路的路線、票價、人力的短缺以及..."},{"start":30786.77,"end":30790.562,"text":"好,謝謝蘇委員。下一位請林月琴委員質詢。"},{"start":30818.701,"end":30822.443,"text":"主席好,麻煩我們的卓院長。請卓院長備詢。林委員好。院長午安,辛苦了。我來自民間團體也長期關心兒少跟交通安全。今天我先針對於在這個會期裡邊一直想解決的一些問題,"},{"start":30847.648,"end":30875.218,"text":"先來就教一下我們的院長跟部長那第一個事實上是無照駕駛的問題從這個數據可以看到平均每一年大概7萬人的傷亡那而且他累積比例就累犯比例非常高而且事故件數呢但近5年大概成長22%照試的死亡率高他堪比酒駕更嚴重所以想問的是"},{"start":30877.56,"end":30887.781,"text":"除了提高我們的罰款以外,針對其他更有效的管理措施,像扣車和連帶處罰,不知道部裡邊有沒有修法的打算?"},{"start":30890.669,"end":30915.855,"text":"現在我們確實是對無照駕駛有研擬更進包括提高罰則讓無照駕駛的部分可以得到抑制至於說是不是要有扣車跟連帶處罰就是說跟他同乘的或是說車子借給無照駕駛使用的是不是有連帶的處罰這個部分我們還要再做開會來廣泛徵求各界的意見"},{"start":30920.424,"end":30928.178,"text":"我會在這時候提示因為未成年無照駕駛真的死傷非常的嚴重所以希望說當然不是只有未成年事實上成年無照駕駛這個問題"},{"start":30929.673,"end":30951.249,"text":"也造成每一年有近千億的社會成本,可能要去考慮。接下來就想也要問的是,針對幼童專用車,目前我們是不安全又沒得選。為什麼不安全?現在只能靠一款車,可是它沒有安全氣囊,沒有任何所謂的主被動安全系統,也沒有碰撞測試。"},{"start":30952.267,"end":30963.932,"text":"我不知道也很簡單的請部長回答就是何時能夠讓我們有安全的幼童專用車可以搭乘未來是不是有幼童專用車改善的2.0版的方案"},{"start":30964.983,"end":30965.003,"text":"市長"},{"start":30983.089,"end":31002.277,"text":"但是碰撞的測試、碰撞的檢驗或者是兒童坐椅的等於是坐椅的安全帶因為過去之前有討論過坐椅安全帶要不要強制設置那有很多的專家是擔心萬一有發生狀況的時候兒童不會自己解開安全帶"},{"start":31003.597,"end":31028.974,"text":"所以當時這個部分有被擱置,不過我們會再重啟。對,是,部長,因為每一天事實上是2到6歲的孩子在乘坐幼童專載車,而且現在目前有2000多輛,而且我們國內只有一款車,真的是沒得選。所以我希望能夠2.0版盡快能夠出來,來照顧我們的孩子。就是說在這個40項檢驗之外,那對於碰撞是不是造成傷害,怎麼樣去補強,或是說增加這個檢驗?"},{"start":31029.915,"end":31051.481,"text":"不過我知道中華德力卡是沒有所謂的事實上的碰撞的,甚至相關的事件,所以我覺得可能還是要去考慮這一塊。可是今天我主要的議題是在於,因為今天這個題目我是背負著公民團體的期待下來進行質詢的,所以也希望能夠我們一起幫幫忙來解決這樣的一個狀況。"},{"start":31053.544,"end":31061.151,"text":"首先我要問院長你同不同意現在的交通違規的罰環是政府的提款機?應該不是吧?"},{"start":31062.038,"end":31088.28,"text":"對我想也是可是臺灣從我們的交通違規被罰到我們的法環的分配的話很常被我們的入權團體嘲笑是一台提款機、永動機為什麼他們這樣講第一我們的道路環境不佳造成違規然後呢造成人民被罰被罰之後我們的法環又沒有用於我們的環境改善然後再度的違規再度的被罰第二我們的法環事實上是用於購買科技的執法設備"},{"start":31089.521,"end":31102.154,"text":"並沒有用到道路環境的改善,可是現在科技執法不記點,坐任我們的高風險的駕駛人繼續的危害弱勢用路人,形成了一個惡性循環。"},{"start":31104.469,"end":31122.72,"text":"請問一下我們看一下院長跟部長看看這些道路的環境設計的問題是不是一直在陷害我們的用路人這則新聞提到的是騎樓停滿車沒路可走那行人被取締不靠邊走可是我要問的是如何靠邊走已經是沒路可走了"},{"start":31123.34,"end":31134.131,"text":"下一則新聞就可以看到之前在文化大學我們的周遭環境因為沒有人行道而他必須貼著路邊走然後呢被撞死的一個便當店的老闆娘"},{"start":31135.046,"end":31153.046,"text":"他同樣也是被警察講說怎麼不靠邊走呢可是我一樣要問的是那如何靠邊走就已經沒路可走啦那這些新聞不是特例因為現狀就是我們有很多的弱勢用路人行人跟我們的兒少跟身障者都被迫要與車爭道"},{"start":31154.352,"end":31179.068,"text":"所以前一陣子大家在草圍最不祭典的時候我們的職業駕駛人工會都來跟我講說很多時候不是他們不想守法是道路環境太差了先他們也不育那交通路權團體跟我們的身障跟家長族群他們在抱怨也就是政府在放寬祭典制度的時候同時有沒有去考慮到我們交通環境的改善這些配套措施到底在哪邊"},{"start":31180.109,"end":31192.103,"text":"那所以就想來問的是,院長這些道路環境的改善問題政府打算怎麼解決,然後要多久的時間,會投入多少的經費預算,有管考的制度嗎?"},{"start":31193.79,"end":31219.399,"text":"謝謝委員如果委員提到剛剛所說的道路交通違規的罰款其中提撥12%作為交通安全跟這個交通安全跟執法的改善其中有一部分除了優先事項之外地方政府可以用在道路安全路面等等的改善工程那其他當然還要做很多包括這個周遭違規的取締等等這個都要在包括遠景各方面要努力的"},{"start":31220.794,"end":31232.244,"text":"我想這一次我們行政院很用心的就是有這樣的一個政策就是我們現在大概四年四百億的確事實上想要去解決我們洗刷我們行人地獄的這樣子的一個惡名"},{"start":31233.254,"end":31255.628,"text":"不過這四年四百億這個經費不是長期性的財源也不是穩定性的所以也沒有制度化的法源依據但我們就很擔心說這樣的計畫可能沒有辦法達到我們永續安全的一個目標所以這次會議用這個主題來質詢就是希望院長想透過這個樣的質詢來幫你找到我們的錢藏在哪裡"},{"start":31256.669,"end":31271.149,"text":"交通部提供的一個圖表,我們的罰還收入總額年年增加。其中收到最多分配款項的是各地方政府。每一年大概有130億,六都大概10到20億。"},{"start":31272.671,"end":31290.043,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":31290.163,"end":31317.731,"text":"院長如果是依照現行規定的話在國道上我們的違規的罰款收入有17%要運用在交通環境的改善那你認為多少的比例的罰款收入就像我們剛剛講給地方政府的多少的比例收入可以放在交通環境改善上比較合情合理這可能要現在看看他現在收來的款項在目前的比例分配之後他執行的狀況如何可以再做進一步的檢討"},{"start":31320.375,"end":31320.655,"text":"議員發言人"},{"start":31340.672,"end":31368.074,"text":"那現在但是未來我覺得有一個長久的裁員是非常好那其實除了這個罰款裁員之外還有另外一個可以考慮就是現在我們撥給六都都有棄燃費那棄燃費也是專管專用用在道路那如果這兩筆錢都能夠有一定比例是特別是對安全設施的改善我覺得可以讓提升這個部分根據我們的道路交通違規罰款的收入分配跟運用辦法的第三條"},{"start":31368.795,"end":31386.368,"text":"本來就明定說我們各縣市的舉發的罰款收入有75%是進到縣市政府的金庫當中可是最特別的就是怎麼運用事實上沒人曉得也沒人過問所以我私底下去問某個縣市的交通局局長問他說你們這樣的經費怎麼用"},{"start":31387.449,"end":31415.23,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":31415.578,"end":31432.97,"text":"的確是要至少提拔百分之十二來作為交通執法跟我們的交通安全環境改善。不過可以看到基本上大概就只有四項是在講執法兩項是在講教育我們講交通安全三一的政策裡邊"},{"start":31433.806,"end":31448.472,"text":"指法工程跟我們的教育可是這裡邊都沒有提到工程所以也想問兩位知不知道說在國外對於這類的交通罰還的收入到底會怎麼去運用"},{"start":31449.512,"end":31470.822,"text":"那日本呢稱為反折金的那個違規的罰款呢他們基本上是按照我們的事故件數人口數跟改善道路的長度依比例來分配地方可是有要求專款專用用於我們的設施設置跟道路環境改善跟地方剛才在執行的說很彈性然後沒設限"},{"start":31471.983,"end":31472.463,"text":"在這邊事實上是我們的"},{"start":31502.046,"end":31526.569,"text":"道交處罰條例裡邊本來就有講說要有一定的比例來專款專用用在我們的改善道路交通所以想問部長這邊的一定比例的專款專用究竟是在實務執行上有哪一步細則辦法有明定說這一定的比例比例是多少而且要用在我們的改善道路交通"},{"start":31527.631,"end":31527.851,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":31557.551,"end":31560.374,"text":"﹚部長,因為我剛剛講齁,我們剛剛第三條講的是75%分配到我們的地方政府。"},{"start":31574.765,"end":31600.358,"text":"這地方政府裡邊的88%我們是沒有管控的其中的12%如你剛剛講的的確他有講在改善環境可是重點是他的其中的6項優先項目是執法的配備跟教育完全沒有提到道路環境所以這就是我們擔心甚至可不可以也可以講說那88%可不可以明定道路環境的改善而不是讓各地方政府"},{"start":31600.698,"end":31600.718,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":31622.27,"end":31646.161,"text":"所以當然我們就很期待是不是可以這樣來做一個考量因為我知道是這個涉及的有牽扯到地方政府的權限但也不是說我們今天在這邊談了說了就算那所以為求謹慎的話如何去訂定地方政府專用於這種道路環境改善的比例的話"},{"start":31646.843,"end":31655.778,"text":"需要中央跟地方一起來充分溝通所以是不是中央可以邀請地方政府來充分溝通或許可以參考一下"},{"start":31656.26,"end":31683.678,"text":"我們剛剛提到的國道建設管理基金的比例明定17%至少你的88%裡邊可不可以定一些比例然後在12%裡邊也可以去考慮要求而不是道安的分數扣了就算所以最後就想讓我們的院長和部長在這邊有沒有機會可以承諾這個部分讓華環的收入設定的一定比例不過大家也要問"},{"start":31684.399,"end":31690.118,"text":"你們心目中的那個比例到底是多少是不是運用在我們的道路環境當中"},{"start":31692.027,"end":31720.755,"text":"謝謝委員的這個建議利益非常好但是我們現在要突破的是財政紀律法第7條政府的收入固定進入一個基金之後他無法專款專用的指定所以我們是不是從剛剛部長所說的在現在的比例之下對於這些優先之應的事項能夠做明確的規範讓他在交通安全的向下真的地方政府考量在裁員的時候優先之用在交通工程的改善"},{"start":31721.255,"end":31721.815,"text":"謝謝林委員下一位我們請黃秀芳委員質詢"},{"start":31761.019,"end":31763.942,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請院長請院長備詢方委員好"},{"start":31773.684,"end":31800.515,"text":"院長好,我想說在今年3月份的時候我質詢陳建仁院長的時候我也特別提到彰化市的兩個重大的建設一個是彰化市的鐵路高架另外一個是台中捷運綠線延伸到彰化這兩個重大的交通建設那我想請教就是說其實這兩個重大的建設在地方甚至在中央也"},{"start":31801.496,"end":31825.029,"text":"一直提到現在我從我當議員到現在也將近20年的時間那這20年的時間我看到從地方的規劃中央的規劃一直到現在彰化市的鐵路高架現在是目前是進入到綜合規劃在111年的時候行政院這邊通過這個可行性研究那到這個111年5月27號啟動綜合規劃的作業那到現在"},{"start":31831.252,"end":31854.304,"text":"今年3月份的時候我這個質詢我們陳建仁院長的時候那時候有特別提到感覺好像從111年到現在完全都沒有什麼進度那我當時就有特別提到就是說是不是可以每三個月讓本席知道目前這兩個重大建設的進度到底如何那我收到在5月份的時候"},{"start":31854.984,"end":31877.179,"text":"交通部這邊也有給我一個這個結論就是說目前在今年3月份的時候就是有召開一個這個協商會議那目前就是這個彰化鐵路高架的基地這個位置可能縣府彰化縣政府跟我們交通部這邊鐵道局可能這個位置"},{"start":31877.799,"end":31906.534,"text":"大家是沒有一個共識那我想請教就是說院長跟部長是不是可以來協助讓這個彰化的這個重大建設能夠儘速來啟動那我知道就是說如果這個中央這邊沒有儘速來協助的話我可能可以預測可能經過四年之後可能都還停留在綜合規劃所以我是不是可以請院長或部長來回應一下"},{"start":31907.475,"end":31918.153,"text":"委員所說花壇到二水這個高架段張化市的鐵路高架因為張化市的鐵路高架有一個非常重要就是有一個機務段需要遷移"},{"start":31918.704,"end":31946.09,"text":"華潭那一段。就是這個鐵道局這邊是希望能夠牽到華潭或二水。那彰化縣政府是希望能夠牽到大渡。所以我們是希望就是當然這個縣府跟這個交通部這邊我們希望當然能夠有一個共識最好。那如果現在完全都沒有一個共識的話是不是我拜託院長這邊可以這邊介入來協助。"},{"start":31947.389,"end":31972.64,"text":"交通部已經跟縣政府在協商請交通部報告到目前的進度呢?章化縣政府已經在今年的6月26有一個正式公文他們同意就是採用花壇跟二水結合的這個方案那原則上已經不堅持是把這個機場移到這個大渡區因為坦白說如果設在大渡那我們的主發站是在章化"},{"start":31973.28,"end":31993.998,"text":"那他的車輛是有一點違背這個調度的原則,會從北邊要往南到彰化站,從大渡再調到彰化站,然後再從大渡站出發到這個樹林。所以這樣的調度方法是違背鐵路台鐵的這個一般的調度原則。所以他們台鐵還是期待是在二水跟花壇這邊來設相關的調度場。"},{"start":31996.019,"end":32016.551,"text":"所以目前為止是縣政府這邊原則同意是在華潭跟二水那後續呢?後續就是要把這個中規在這個原則之下中規來做一個審核那中規如果核定就等於開始啟動設計跟發包的階段那預計還要多久?"},{"start":32017.458,"end":32021.24,"text":"所以預計是在今年年底綜合規劃的部分可以完成。包括經過國化會的審議還有經過報院的核可。"},{"start":32042.405,"end":32057.887,"text":"這是我們期待,部長我真的是期待你上任之後,因為你也是彰化人,所以真的這個對彰化是有一個很大的一個算是重大的建設,而且對彰化的發展真的是影響非常的大。所以你是彰化人,你也是會大人。"},{"start":32059.048,"end":32059.989,"text":"另外一個臺中捷運綠線延伸到彰化呢?"},{"start":32085.882,"end":32113.741,"text":"目前是有條件的通過可行性評估嘛對那後續的部分我是不是可以請這個縣府當然縣府也有一些他們就是說他們已經送這個張東的這個擴大都市計畫嘛那我想請教就是說未來這個可能也需要縣府跟這個交通部這邊一起來合作才有辦法競速來完成"},{"start":32114.915,"end":32141.22,"text":"跟委員報告就是當時會先核定可行因為主要這個一直糾結在那裡就是因為張東都市計劃的內容縣府這邊一直都沒有辦法定案那也沒有辦法經過內政部的核准那時候就會到底是都市計劃要先定案還是捷運可行性要先核定那後來院裡面在政府院長的協調下先讓可行性先通過那但是有一個但書就是在中規之前"},{"start":32141.8,"end":32141.84,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":32170.128,"end":32185.691,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":32186.091,"end":32212.626,"text":"協助彰化縣政府能夠儘速把這個需要具備的這些比如說我們的都市計畫也好或者是可能一些資料能夠完備儘速讓這個臺中捷運綠線延伸到彰化能夠儘速來完成那不然其實這一段沒有這個如果資料沒辦法完成或者是都市計畫沒辦法完成的話其實也會影響到整個"},{"start":32213.646,"end":32227.85,"text":"臺中捷運綠線延伸北延到大坑的這個整個期程可能也都會有延誤所以我們是不是可以拜託我們的這個院長針對這個延伸到彰化那是不是也要協助我們彰化縣政府這邊來競速來完成"},{"start":32230.815,"end":32256.358,"text":"現在謝謝委員因為彰化縣政府要補送資料到內政部的都市審議委員會那都市審議委員會跟內政部會一起協助彰化縣政府來加速完成這樣的工作那我也請委員能夠幫忙跟彰化縣政府說盡量收集地方的意見之後到底要採取區段徵收或者什麼樣的選擇方式趕快來確定之後將他送到都委會來那內政部會加速來安排讓他找到定案"},{"start":32257.018,"end":32279.63,"text":"我剛從下午聽了好幾位委員在講說整個不論是鐵路要地下化或者是高架其實我都覺得說我們彰化的這個鐵路高架已經講了將近20年到現在我從我第一屆當立委的時候幾乎只要是院長來備詢的我都會提到我們彰化的鐵路高架跟捷運綠線"},{"start":32280.951,"end":32297.424,"text":"所以到現在我都覺得都還在這個綜合規劃當中真的蠻可惜的啦如果可以進速的話其實可以看到整個彰化的一個這個發展應該是會非常迅速因為彰化是六都以外人口最多的地方"},{"start":32298.304,"end":32321.038,"text":"全縣有123萬人口,彰化也是中小企業非常多的一個地方,農業也非常的發達。所以我希望就是說,如果透過整個交通運輸網絡能夠更整密,然後更加的快速的話,其實對整個彰化的發展是有很大的一個幫助。所以我再次的拜託院長還有部長,"},{"start":32321.638,"end":32324.1,"text":"我還要提到整個彰化車站旁邊還有一個扇形車庫。我不知道院長有沒有去過。"},{"start":32350.691,"end":32357.275,"text":"我也是每一次這個新的院長在這邊備選的時候我一定要讓院長知道這個全台灣唯一一個扇形車庫也是亞洲唯二的一個扇形車庫那"},{"start":32369.622,"end":32370.543,"text":"﹚三、7月5日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。﹚"},{"start":32387.138,"end":32387.158,"text":"﹚第11會議"},{"start":32403.307,"end":32415.759,"text":"臺鐵公司已經承租3棟,他們要自行維修。那文資局這邊也有補助7000多萬,7836萬的這個經費。那很可惜7836萬就只能整修3棟,那全部有40幾棟欸。"},{"start":32426.11,"end":32432.445,"text":"那我是不是可以請求我們院長可以比照我們北部有一個鐵道博物館"},{"start":32435.19,"end":32456.698,"text":"這個院長你應該要想到就是說亞洲唯二的這個扇形車庫是多麼的珍貴又是國定古蹟那旁邊如果還有一個這個鐵路宿舍群如果可以整個全部整修起來其實就像我們這個嘉義的這個生活快意村一樣那可以吸引很多的"},{"start":32457.398,"end":32478.318,"text":"不論是這個國際的遊客或者是我們臺灣這所有的民眾都可以來看到我們的這個國定古蹟善行車庫旁邊又有一個這個鐵路宿舍群我是不是可以這個麻煩院長回應一下未來這個地方是不是有可能成為我們的鐵道博物館的分館"},{"start":32479.554,"end":32502.277,"text":"台北或是其他包括苗栗都有一些鐵路的博物館或園區的規劃我剛剛部長講或是我們去看一下這個扇形的車庫文資的保護已經是國定的古蹟了那政府當然有責任要去做更好的規劃除了保存之外能夠有適度的活用讓他跟民眾接近我們在現場看看能不能做什麼的協助"},{"start":32502.557,"end":32520.685,"text":"是好那我是不是跟院長這邊約個時間我們實際到地方去看一下除了看扇形車庫之外我們也要去看旁邊的這個舊的鐵路宿舍群如果整個旁邊可以整個把它活絡起來其實一方面也可以帶動我們彰化的地方的觀光"},{"start":32521.425,"end":32541.152,"text":"那又結合我們未來的鐵路高架化其實整個彰化的進步就是在這邊所以在這邊要再次的拜託院長真的針對我們彰化的重大建設這兩項真的要拜託院長真的關注一下能夠盡速讓這兩項的重大工程能夠盡速動工"},{"start":32542.432,"end":32562.549,"text":"是,我想跟委員報告,善行車庫確實是彰化的一個寶貝,那也是國定古蹟是很多鐵道迷一定會去朝聖的地方,那也因為這樣所以鐵路高架遇到這個善行車庫就花了很多的困難要去克服,那也是因為這樣所以彰化的鐵路高架會比較複雜,"},{"start":32564.61,"end":32590.018,"text":"因為為了讓善行車庫可以繼續運作還要多拉一條軌道那這個部分也都放在我們這次的整個規劃高價的規劃案那這個很早之前就有定下來就是說善行車庫他是要保留是要保留而且是活化的不是變成一個就是一個沒有在活用的一個地方他是還是繼續可以做他"},{"start":32590.638,"end":32594.981,"text":"委員會也有特別去考察那也有針對我們這個幼兒專用車這個有去考察"},{"start":32619.639,"end":32646.062,"text":"那在前陣子在彰化就有這個娃娃車車禍那小朋友就跑出車外那一個是跑出車外一個是這個顱骨嚴重的這個骨折所以我們希望就是說針對這個娃娃車的這個部分就是希望交通部這邊針對這一部分是不是你們要去看一下也要去這個找專家學者來研議"},{"start":32646.843,"end":32667.934,"text":"好,針對我們現在說這個娃娃車,這個幼兒的專用車它是沒有安全帶的嘛,那有安全帶跟沒有安全帶它的差別,我們現在坐車一定要用安全帶,可是我們的這個幼兒專用車反而是沒有,那這樣子的話會不會造成,如果萬一碰撞的時候,這個我們的幼童它是拋出車外,"},{"start":32669.054,"end":32669.234,"text":"﹚主席"},{"start":32702.313,"end":32707.659,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員。謝謝院長。下一位我們請許富奎委員質詢。"},{"start":32728.719,"end":32732,"text":"謝謝主席。有請我們左院長。請左院長備詢。徐委員好。院長午安。辛苦。院長我想我來自我們的國進之南的屏東。目前在我們所有的區域立委裡面"},{"start":32755.336,"end":32771.675,"text":"我的選區是最圓服務院也是最遼闊的啦所以針對我們這個屏東的這個交通問題今天要特別來請教請部長跟院長來特別來幫忙我想爭取交通平選一向是我們屏東人的一個心願"},{"start":32772.836,"end":32800.865,"text":"未來更是我們在發展經濟跟所謂達到我們賴總統一個區域均衡發展一個很重要的關鍵所以今天希望院長能夠幫屏東人圓夢能夠幫我們來落實這個交通平權的這個議題那我想首先要請教院長關於我們高鐵的部分那2019年我們蘇貞昌前院長正式宣布高鐵南沿屏東那在陳建仁前院長的任內"},{"start":32801.305,"end":32801.585,"text":"請院長答覆。"},{"start":32830.511,"end":32858.03,"text":"謝謝委員高鐵南北的延伸現在是行政院國家重要的建設之一那其中南部的延伸到屏東從過去到現在一直跟委員所提到有幾條的路廊包括最北邊的到最南邊的那現在最近的這個原則上的決定會採取這個高屏二塊就是左營這個方向這個方案來做未來的路線的規劃但是還是要再跟地方多多的溝通"},{"start":32858.47,"end":32882.035,"text":"包括縣政府跟各級民意代表跟地方的人事溝通怎麼樣能夠達到最高的效益這個方案的走向會有怎麼樣到現在可以看得到工程上的困難有沒有有沒有辦法克服它那現在但是原則上是走這個路線在規劃那因為我有跟幾位高雄市的委員在討論這個議題包括跟我們部長也有一直在討論但是因為現在"},{"start":32883.205,"end":32910.394,"text":"綠狼的決定會影響到所謂的高頻兩個縣市的一些問題存在嗎?那未來我們怎麼去克服這些的一些問題存在?細節部長再答覆,我們曾經討論過了目前那天之前有宣布的這個高頻二塊的綠狼那目前還有一些技術上的一些問題正在評估跟要設法去克服比如說包括"},{"start":32910.794,"end":32910.814,"text":"﹚議員發言"},{"start":32929.488,"end":32944.27,"text":"院長我想是這樣子因為我們目前我們的高鐵的機場是設在燕巢那我們的行走員是有一個轉運的一個功能存在但是因為我們會被高鐵這個這兩個點的一個包含車體車站"},{"start":32945.452,"end":32965.401,"text":"﹚"},{"start":32966.056,"end":32984.87,"text":"院長方案也曾經是在構想的方案當中經過多次的考慮跟討論那現在進一步原則上是剛剛說的比較朝左引方案就是剛剛高屏二塊的方式那院長因為比較偏北邊他沒有進到大家比較密集的地方去所以這個考量過去曾經討論過"},{"start":32988.277,"end":33012.402,"text":"顏早在技術上他有一些工程技術上有困難因為他那一代的橋樑是減支樑減支樑的方式所以他沒有辦法去承受側向力如果從顏早那邊要從既有的主線插一條支線那既有的橋樑那一段全部要打掉重做那第二個就是如果從顏早岔出來到屏東高雄會變成支線"},{"start":33014.802,"end":33035.333,"text":"以後屏東會變主線那高雄人如果要去假設未來延伸屏東又延伸到台東潮州跟台東之後比如說高雄人要往台東去搭他要先搭到台北台南然後再從台南再搭到屏東這個整個程序上我想會有很大的困擾跟這個執行上的一個問題"},{"start":33037.074,"end":33064.805,"text":"這點還是要特別再拜託院長我記得我第一次到立法院來總執行就是針對這個高鐵的議題來提出那當時我們的陳前院長跟我們的王前部長都有允諾是在2029年要完成通車目標可是到目前為止連路廊都還沒有確定我看這個我們實在是很痛苦尤其我像我每天早上要來立法院開會我必須要搭五點多的五點多要出門搭第一班的高鐵"},{"start":33066.206,"end":33087.343,"text":"我們很多鄉親、包括我們的公務同仁、這些人都在問我們,立委到底我們的高鐵當時會不會來。我想大家真的是對這個高鐵當年是我們真的最深的一個期待。請部長跟院長我們真的盡快來把這個定案,然後在部長的任內能不能讓他有機會來動工。這個我們一起來努力好不好。"},{"start":33088.844,"end":33093.528,"text":"平南快速道路是恆春半島鄉親共和一條救命的道路。4月9日陳前院長正式宣布可行性平坡通過。"},{"start":33105.359,"end":33129.395,"text":"那我5月9日我也在立法院正式開了一個協調會那也把我們相關的我們的交通部的相關單位都找來那我們希望能夠加快一個時程那目前之前協調的進度是跟我講說7月的部分這個月要進行一個綜合規劃的發包然後跟著環評一起做那請教部長目前的進度是不是照這樣在進行當中"},{"start":33129.975,"end":33146.966,"text":"是目前正在辦理中規跟環評那預計在今年的11月會提出第一份的這個中規的起初報告跟環評那後面就會進行環評的一些程序那路郎都已經確定那現在我想這個"},{"start":33148.648,"end":33148.668,"text":"議員講解"},{"start":33178.611,"end":33186.186,"text":"施政院院長也有協調說能夠加快施政但是怎麼最近又聽到說等到120年才可以動工有這個訊息嗎?"},{"start":33188.184,"end":33212.583,"text":"我們目前預估因為中規完成中規要合定之前一定要通過二階環評那這個二階環評一般都要兩年半左右的時間因為他至少要有一年四季的這個環境調查就是新的快速道路都要做二階環評所以目前預估大概整個動工要大概在119年之後"},{"start":33214.024,"end":33235.569,"text":"來動工。那1、2、6年左右來完工這樣子。目前這些時間不用拖太久了。現在113年而已還要花6年的時間。我們來設法看怎麼樣包括中規跟環評。是不是我們可以建議說我們建議來分段施工尤其現在是從尤其封港到放寮這一段就是我們回過來。"},{"start":33237.089,"end":33238.53,"text":"第三個部分再請教院長"},{"start":33265.1,"end":33289.685,"text":"高潔來到屏東也是我們很多鄉親的一個期待那目前高潔紅線南沿到我們的屏東的東港跟林邊預計我們9月底可以將可行性評估送到這個中央來核定那但是因為前陣子有遇到所謂一個高價化跟地下化的一個討論那請教院長跟部長那目前最近的進度是到哪裡"},{"start":33290.452,"end":33291.393,"text":"高雄這一統也是高價嗎?"},{"start":33306.383,"end":33325.332,"text":"高雄它從小港延伸到林園小港延伸林園地下可是它到了林園最後這一段是上來的所以高雄本身的紅線就是高架所以我們延伸屏東也是用高架來接而且是在同一個站來轉乘"},{"start":33327.233,"end":33353.764,"text":"那因為現在我們的鄉親之前還是一直期待所謂的一車到底這個部分那當然現在有考慮到我們的運量的一個不一樣的那目前我們有沒有做進一步的調整還是現在就都還是高價接高價就是屏東到臨遠這邊是高價跟臨遠這邊紅線的高價銜接那但是我們的是用輕軌的運量因為事實上這種那是同一個外台跟外車過來沒有"},{"start":33356.405,"end":33357.105,"text":"﹚三、7月5日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":33377.415,"end":33381.538,"text":"時間的部分可能就是目前如果最近能夠核定可行性那後續就是還有環評等等這個階段我們來設法怎麼樣來加速這樣"},{"start":33406.401,"end":33406.621,"text":"是的,好"},{"start":33433.188,"end":33449.249,"text":"那另外剛剛我們有幾位委員也特別提到了所謂的一個鐵路高架化的一個部分那最早的時候我在4月份我們辦了交通委員會的考察那目前我們有針對訪寮車站大平台因為這個大平台的有兩個評價到"},{"start":33451.118,"end":33474.838,"text":"﹗"},{"start":33474.838,"end":33496.869,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":33497.814,"end":33519.986,"text":"市長做什麼的規劃?這個部分我可能還要再進一步了解不過確實潮州發車會造成那一帶的平交道這個起降的這個柵欄起降的頻繁交通上的不便那我是不是再進一步了解我再跟委員做報告也發生了很多起交通事故啦確實今天老人家經過的時候真的都會不小心就會有發生事故"},{"start":33524.588,"end":33541.585,"text":"平東之前已經完成一段這個就是從平東到潮州的這個高架也增設了好幾個但是就差這最後一里路這個是最後最後一里路啦這個要拜託院長跟部長再幫忙一下這個我們在現刊來做了解那再跟委員再把結果跟委員報告謝謝"},{"start":33543.252,"end":33565.324,"text":"那我想剩下最後一個時間要特別再跟請院長這邊幫忙那我想我們秀了幾張我們的圖片我想我們現在進入老年化的一個社會那從屏東縣政府我們也積極推動所謂一個關懷據點的一個設備那讓這些老人家我們平常可以來這邊"},{"start":33565.964,"end":33589.309,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":33589.729,"end":33607.421,"text":"三百二十八處的社區公園據點有兩百二十二處是公有空間一百零六處是私有空間那沒有合適的一個廚房的環境一共有一百七十二處那缺乏無障礙的廁所也有七十九處那所以就是我們有超過八成的據點"},{"start":33608.302,"end":33636.766,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":33637.438,"end":33641.563,"text":"平東關懷據點的軟硬體建設給予更多的挹注、給予更多的協助,這點請院長來答覆。"},{"start":33665.412,"end":33670.032,"text":"主席"},{"start":33687.11,"end":33690.412,"text":"好,謝謝徐議員、謝謝院長。400萬是真的不夠啦。好,現在我們請許智傑委員質詢。"},{"start":33718.264,"end":33734.312,"text":"主席各位先請大家那個院長站很久了先坐著聽等一下我可能還是有問題再請院長一起回答那我們先請那個數位發展部數位發展部的部長黃部長委員好部長那個"},{"start":33746.963,"end":33760.275,"text":"黃仁勳說臺灣是世界AI的起點。黃崇仁說臺灣是世界AI的首都。部長有沒有信心?"},{"start":33763.298,"end":33790.144,"text":"謝謝那個黃仁勳這些不是有沒有信心完成信心當然可以啊臺灣有很好的基礎建設包括我想要跟部長這邊報告一下也希望說部長可以著手來進行了就是全世界像黃仁勳他們超級電腦的GPU CPU TPU等等的台積電大概就有做了90幾趴全世界的90幾趴"},{"start":33792.429,"end":33818.029,"text":"總體電腦的面板呢,全世界臺灣就做了八十幾趴。所以這個在AI方面,臺灣的條件可以算是世界上最好的。那我們的現在的海嵐站,部長可以看一下,院長不知道能不能看得到。我們的海嵐站呢,事實上現在就是分區各地啦。啊這裏就像小組那邊是買頭,啊那些就是我小買頭。"},{"start":33819.773,"end":33844.05,"text":"但是你如果沒有一個大的港口容納各個大船或者是各式各樣的船這樣子一個格局可能不夠所以台灣需要有個數位港口我們高雄是海港是空港如果高雄可以再加上數位港我們用現有的條件來把所有的海欄站把他所有的全世界的資訊集中"},{"start":33845.834,"end":33867.764,"text":"所以呢我是希望說我們數位部裡面也有任性發展師要如何增加我們全臺灣的數位的任性要如何讓我們臺灣變成世界的AI的首都那這個地方事實上高雄是一個相當適當的地方現在台積電進駐高雄"},{"start":33869.773,"end":33898.762,"text":"黃仁勳回答跟鴻海進駐高雄那我高雄有很多很好的條件所以我們來創造一個數位港口部長這個有沒有信心那個報告委員我覺得這個您的idea很好但高雄剛剛講就是除了我們剛剛講有我再跟部長報告一下就是說我們高雄事實上在這個高雄港附近事實上我們找一個海嵐站那海嵐站上來之後呢"},{"start":33899.505,"end":33923.527,"text":"其實所有的就像飛機場跟海港一樣他船進進出出飛機進進出出其實還不夠有商業的性質所以他除了海欄站之外呢他希望再做一個交流中心就類似樞紐中心那全世界樞紐中心也在亞洲現在是香港跟新加坡比較強但是香港很快就會沒落新加坡要竄起"},{"start":33925.15,"end":33949.119,"text":"這時候我們台灣的位置是世界上整個太平洋島鏈最好的位置所以這個亞洲數位輸入中心定義在高雄我相信我們有這個能力來完成而且我剛提到的不管是台積電不管是晶片不管是GPU不管是面板台灣這些都是全世界最強的所以我們絕對有能力超越新加坡所以我們要把台灣"},{"start":33950.087,"end":33952.449,"text":"拜託我們台灣幫他行銷連接到世界。"},{"start":33978.03,"end":33978.07,"text":"李部長請備詢"},{"start":34010.772,"end":34030.989,"text":"部長好,剛才講到數位港,事實上亞洲新灣區在這幾年來進步很多。港澳公司也成立旅運中心,旅運中心現在全世界的國際郵輪,台灣國際郵輪在什麼時候最興盛,不知道部長知不知道?其實我們郵輪做得最好的就在疫情那幾年。"},{"start":34032.385,"end":34052.532,"text":"為什麼疫情那幾年會做最好?因為我們一般的旅遊是Outbound的,坐郵輪Outbound的會比Inbound的多。但是那幾年因為是疫情所以不能出去。所以那時候有很多我們的跳島旅遊。那我也曾經提過就是以郵輪的跳島旅遊台澎金馬,這是一個很好的選擇。"},{"start":34053.578,"end":34063.085,"text":"台灣人很多人沒有到過金馬很多人沒有到過馬祖那你如果台風金馬可以用一個郵輪來一個跳島旅遊的話事實上我們本身就有國內的市場"},{"start":34064.84,"end":34090.061,"text":"另外就是說你看基隆港跟高雄港的出入事實上差很多。你看那個土也有就是從基隆出發的到那霸到日本長崎等等的。然後從高雄出發有到宮古島那霸等等。那這些都是國際旅遊的動線。那我希望說就是交通部跟港澳公司跟航港局可以重視一下這個郵輪的旅遊。我們看下一張。"},{"start":34091.209,"end":34115.117,"text":"現在就是迪士尼他冒險後以新加坡當作母港規劃4到7天的亞洲旅遊事實上類似這樣子的概念之前我們有高雄跟香港雙母港不知道部長知不知道現在又停了因為香港現在其實他就是會decade所以我們對香港當然就是說我們可以考慮就是高雄跟新加坡定為新的雙母港"},{"start":34116.104,"end":34116.805,"text":"另外還有一個好玩卡。"},{"start":34141.605,"end":34170.059,"text":"部長可能沒有玩過好玩卡沒有買過,院長可能也沒有買過好玩卡院長可能也不知道什麼叫好玩卡在日本大阪呢實際上他一張好玩卡兩天的行程可以玩了四五十個景點只花不到一千塊台幣所以年輕人是這麼玩的年輕人他坐飛機到日本花了差不多一萬多塊兩萬塊的那個旅費然後住宿費一天兩千玩個四天"},{"start":34171.457,"end":34177.128,"text":"四千塊買個好玩卡買個兩次他就可以花兩萬塊他就可以在日本玩得很高興"},{"start":34178.4,"end":34207.523,"text":"台灣這個好玩卡公關局公關署有在做但是做得還不夠我們高雄市政府現在是算是做得最好的但是也還不夠我們希望說它除了交通的連結之外還能夠連結各個不同的景點把它串聯成好玩卡這樣子才能夠推動觀光我想台灣未來其實就是兩個大的概念高科技產業國跟觀光文化國那包括我們高雄也一樣我們高雄除了AI手資之外我這個Tech高雄是有它的意義的"},{"start":34208.143,"end":34226.203,"text":"TECH不只是科技的TECH,T是Technology,E可以是Economy,C是Charming,H是Happy,叫做科技經濟魅力花卉。科技產業國、科技城市帶動城市經濟的發展、國家經濟的發展。魅力當然你是有魅力何勝那麼快要來。"},{"start":34229.026,"end":34251.351,"text":"所以其實就是包括觀光經濟、商圈經濟等等的這些庶民經濟可以藉由魅力跟觀光來推動經濟的成長。那也像高科技人才跟一般的人民都有工作可以做。所以科技、經濟、魅力、華麗我想這個方向尤其是交通部觀光是你們最重要的工作。所以郵輪這個希望說能夠再規劃。"},{"start":34253.992,"end":34256.475,"text":"台灣PASS的重點是交通的連結,但是台灣PASS沒有景點的連結。"},{"start":34277.972,"end":34301.429,"text":"所以台灣PASS這個部分還可以再加強我講的是這個沒有錯那部長就是就台灣PASS再去怎麼樣去增加他的跟景點的連接這樣子的概念好不好這個部長不錯部長很有進度狀況那再來就是剛才那個徐議員也有提到的高鐵藍眼高鐵藍眼從其實我一直覺得從左營直接連接到屏東我會覺得有點痛"},{"start":34303.427,"end":34319.978,"text":"以前在毛澤國當交通部長,吳篤立當高雄市長的時候就是眼光不夠,說錢沒夠,所以沒辦法唸到高雄,沒辦法唸到紅山。臺北高鐵有三個核心,臺北車站、板橋車站、南港車站,高雄只有一個核心。"},{"start":34321.05,"end":34335.283,"text":"左營車站。事實上你以50年後來思考整個高雄的發展可能會偏重一方。那南高雄的發展可能會受到阻礙。尤其現在亞洲新灣區其實陳局市長任內把亞洲新灣區做得很漂亮。"},{"start":34336.335,"end":34362.057,"text":"陳其邁市長任內我們再次亞洲氣溫區的提升還有包括所有的高科技產業的進駐為了這裡是個重鎮如果有高鐵來事實上會更好所以我也希望說交通部可以好好的考慮一下就是高鐵三個核心在我們南台灣在我們高雄也可能有高雄高作營高雄跟鳳山三個核心也希望說部長可以做一下思考"},{"start":34363.407,"end":34378.527,"text":"那另外高鐵、台鐵、輕軌這三個都是交通動脈那當然就是輕軌也謝謝交通部跟行政院很幫忙我們這一陣子期賣市場一直在喊事先啟發包括剛剛徐委員提到可不可以接到屏東"},{"start":34379.248,"end":34379.408,"text":"﹚發言委員﹚"},{"start":34395.712,"end":34420.661,"text":"另外一個就是我們的鐵路地下化跟那個立體化之外,就是說在台鐵車站之前我跟那個劉思煌委員還有李博裕當時還是議員的時候我們都有去開過會,也就是說除了高鐵之外攔指擺木打是一個很大的困擾。我也知道交通部現在叫做評估,也就是說交通部除了攔指擺木打這邊的整體評估之外,台積電那個地方可以設一個台鐵站。"},{"start":34422.414,"end":34439.227,"text":"因為你看這個圖這個從捷運你將來如果說沒有台鐵站到台積電的未來到了捷運再轉站一樣會非常的擁擠所以你在那個台鐵這裡就是那個梅花國道旁邊那一條是鐵道鐵道旁邊那個是男子產業園區那邊是台積電那邊做一個台鐵站將來可能從"},{"start":34443.237,"end":34444.137,"text":"另外停車問題我現在"},{"start":34468.131,"end":34487.058,"text":"這個其實,停全國的前瞻計畫已經用完了,這260億已經用完了。但是停車問題事實上,它會有關於行人友善空間的思考,它還會建立有些違規停車的思考。那這個停車場的辟建是非常的重要,全國很多重要的城市都有這個需要。"},{"start":34487.478,"end":34513.893,"text":"那我知道交通部現在已經沒錢了是不是請行政院也可以盡量在這一部分再規劃一點經費讓全國高雄市包括我們鳳山我鳳山車站事實上車站蓋好了將來有正式營運的時候可能不夠所以呢我們也有很多我們鳳山車站吳甲國宅吳甲龍城宮等等的有很多地方這只是一個例子我想整個全國有很多這樣子重要的點都需要再規劃停車的空間這個希望說可以再規劃"},{"start":34515.732,"end":34527.733,"text":"最後一個就是我們的機場,機場事實上,高雄機場我覺得一直有提升的空間。我們的松山機場,你可以看這個圖是松山機場二樓,那我們高雄機場的二樓是辦公室。"},{"start":34528.527,"end":34555.314,"text":"我們高雄機場沒有那種迎賓的或者是十一住行的一個好的場域的概念就純粹只是交通那其他這部分必須要一起規劃所以我們希望說機場那包括現在高雄機場的改建這個其實速度太慢了你可以看清邁清邁他明年動工2028啟用我們現在高雄機場穿著衣服改衣服半班施工要16年"},{"start":34556.237,"end":34556.377,"text":"我可以說機場的問題嗎?"},{"start":34579.424,"end":34605.116,"text":"先從第一個那個數位港口很重要剛剛黃部長已經說過了已經有這樣的想法我們看看他細部的規劃進程如何那那個高鐵高鐵現在我們剛剛提過他現在是朝向這個左營的方案在進行但是他要跟地方多多的溝通有機會到我們高雄三核心"},{"start":34607.638,"end":34609.32,"text":"香港機場的改善跟停車空間這個"},{"start":34632.123,"end":34633.504,"text":"謝謝許委員下一位我們請魯明哲委員質詢"},{"start":34682.69,"end":34688.094,"text":"好,謝謝副院長。有請我們卓院長。交通部李部長。"},{"start":34694.642,"end":34716.741,"text":"院長第一次在這個總質詢相會。謝謝盧委員,謝謝你。盧委員好。那我會特別看到您的經歷其實讓我蠻佩服的。我們都知道這個我們高爾夫球網球網球有大滿貫。我也特別有注意到你在民進黨府院黨的秘書長這個要職上面你可以講說是府院黨大滿貫秘書長。"},{"start":34719.545,"end":34747.966,"text":"但是我是對你比較,因為我覺得這是一個蠻好的歷練,但是我是真的希望你不是一黨的大師兄。今天能夠把你這些能夠做秘書長、善於協調、溝通、解決問題的能力,如果帶到國政,帶到建設、重大建設的一個問題的解決的話,我也相信你把這個經理帶過來,你可以做一個很好的行政院院長。你有沒有心情啊?我願意非常的努力。"},{"start":34748.68,"end":34753.484,"text":"好 那首先第一個齁 問題我特別注意 每6月8號"},{"start":34770.539,"end":34797.744,"text":"在連假的第一天來到了我們行控中心嘛,好,高速公路,特別來關心大家一個交通路問題啊,特別謝謝你。因為你正好談的這一段話,跟我們整個桃園鄉親,甚至桃竹苗鄉親啊,交通上面那個痛,你那天把它講出來了。我也特別注意到,就在這兩個月,4月15號,我們前院長,陳建仁院長,也去視察我們所謂的過去舞陽高架南延,"},{"start":34798.564,"end":34798.584,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":34816.249,"end":34837.782,"text":"那這個部分我想院長部長你們就回來討論有沒有什麼樣的一個方向可不可能縮短因為我們在4月15號聽到我們當時交通部的報告是預計115年開工然後121年完工那我們要先縮短到底有沒有一個目標方向還要怎麼努力來說一下好嗎"},{"start":34838.541,"end":34861.463,"text":"好謝謝委員那天是看到背後的monitor那一段路一直是車輛源源不斷在塞住那也跟我們每個人經過那一段的感覺是一樣的所以當場是希望說如果我們能夠有更進一步的規劃騎乘能夠早一天做完這個工程的話那對這個路段的改善絕對是有幫忙的那回來我想交通部有在進行相關的評估"},{"start":34862.523,"end":34887.52,"text":"部長我直接來說一下有一個真的能夠可以縮短一下好不好我看到很多工程招標一兩年你這一個跟院長你們好好溝通一下不要每一個工程一定標個一兩年之後好不好我們再加一點這樣的工程主要在延誤我覺得沒有意義到最後搞不好要加的錢更多好不好部長你的看法如何"},{"start":34888.18,"end":34912.852,"text":"是,我想怎麼樣核實的去計算公料,核實編列預算,讓它可以順利的招標,這個我們來努力。那它是今年4月就開始啟動設計,那預計11、11、4年底來辦理招標的階段。那我們來核實編列這個預算。那但是騎乘上整個通車,因為有一個最困難的段就是在湖口,它是要做隧道段。"},{"start":34913.812,"end":34940.238,"text":"那邊有一個隧道因為避開相關的那個所以在能節省的時間如果不節省的話未來都是很多的意外的狀況啊所以我是當天有聽到我們這個我們的院長這樣的說我們是希望能夠順著把大家跨部會召集起來大家拼嘛你省三個月我省五個月大家省起來遇到一些狀況的時候好處理好那我今天要談的是其實我們這個高價持續做到"},{"start":34941.961,"end":34948.177,"text":"這個過新竹到苗栗這個非常非常重要也非常需要那這個剛剛需求大家都理解了可是啊"},{"start":34949.332,"end":34976.892,"text":"南來北往南來北往之後我們發覺我們在高架上面在過去舞陽高架其實主要的功能是避開林口跟我們桃園的堵車啦就都都不給你上架那功能就是這樣的對不對當然對但是我們現在在這個桃竹苗你們這段拓寬因為桃竹苗本身就一個生活圈桃竹苗很多的一個功能要整合在我們行政院的計畫有很多要整合"},{"start":34977.472,"end":34997.046,"text":"那這一條我覺得一個在我們現在桃園南區最重要從高架的出口交流道是什麼?部長你知道嗎?從高架可以直接下來的,不用從新屋轉到國一平面再出去跟著原有的車流在那邊騎,是哪個交流道你知道嗎?"},{"start":34999.634,"end":35000.935,"text":"中峰交流道2020年3月份開始質詢"},{"start":35019.062,"end":35047.293,"text":"中風交流到那時候南向北向都還沒有做所以我要特別謝謝啦我們事實上交通部也努力了也發包了那只是針對於北向北向就是北邊的車台北車要從中壢下OK我們中壢的車要從這個平面直接上到高架也OK這個部分算是非常非常方便但是因為當時我們本來這個規劃就是全向南"},{"start":35048.633,"end":35072.479,"text":"南邊的連結北邊連結都需要所以這個部分我要先請教一下那這個交流道我看我不要再問這個目前預計是115年的大概年初年初就很快就明年後年年初我們至少北邊的連結你們的幫忙在地方從高價直接可以下來的部分會有成果"},{"start":35073.419,"end":35096.639,"text":"那我想南向的這個部分要怎麼辦?那我想請跟院長再說一下,因為這是我四年半之前的板子,現在不再拿來了。那我是帶著我們整個桃園南區,包括里長,包括議長,真的很希望我們的中峰交流道能夠全面來做,但是當時你們看到右邊的公文嗎?"},{"start":35097.78,"end":35118,"text":"右邊的公文是寫的這個行政院的公文,蘇院長的公文他說第二期分期因為經費的關係因為往苗栗的高架要擴大一點免得一上去就堵車所以要並由現在所謂的洋投國一拓寬工程一併來辦理"},{"start":35119.278,"end":35146.161,"text":"那我想這個部分那請教部長好不好那這個部分我直接給你看一下你們給我的回答你可以照著念好不好就是下面北向工程嘛那南向工程你們的說法是今年會完成可信性評估綜合規劃然後在明年會用力取得工程設計115年施工有沒有辦法做到"},{"start":35148.731,"end":35170.888,"text":"如果你115年施工正好是我們羊頭拓寬也是準備開工嘛那其實就搭 有搭上啦 有搭上那這個部分 這個原來的構想就是要跟羊頭一起做就是你剛提的這個南向的這個部分115年要動工嘛他就是跟著羊頭一起來執行"},{"start":35172.609,"end":35193.462,"text":"我知道,現在因為羊頭拓寬要動了,你們不能忘了這一條,南向的好不好。然後再來一個部分,我要特別在這裡也拜託院長,因為事實上你們去年提了一個桃竹苗大細股推動的方案,正好這個方案是左眼以桃竹苗,"},{"start":35193.982,"end":35218.949,"text":"所以在這個方案裡面頭就是桃園然後剛好在交通部提的這個方案那在大西湖方案交通的策略是什麼其中一個最重要就是羊頭拓寬那在這拓寬段要串聯桃竹苗那個頭當然就是中峰北路交流道要讓南邊的貨物能夠從這邊下來不能夠全部都擠到機場交流道那邊進去"},{"start":35220.089,"end":35242.15,"text":"所以我想這個部分我就提到這裡請院長跟部長回去了解在經費時程上按照之前公文的承諾能夠多幫忙好不好好謝謝委員提醒剛剛有看到書前院長的公文我回去我們再研究一下公文的內容我們照公文的方式跟精神繼續看能不能做更有效率的運用"},{"start":35243.117,"end":35243.777,"text":"另外請問一下院長"},{"start":35272.418,"end":35300.911,"text":"我們機場……欸,民航局會不會嚇一跳?機場捷運,機場捷運你有沒有坐過啊?我沒有坐過機場捷運。你沒有坐過機場捷運?哦,你都是坐轎車。因為很少出國。哦,很少出國。哇,那這比較悲情一點。那部長你有沒有坐過機場捷運啊?應該……坐到機場?應該七、八次以上。七、八次啊?對。有沒有去坐到機場過?"},{"start":35304.822,"end":35318.13,"text":"事實上機場捷運在疫後之後復甦的非常非常快這個部分事實上在好幾次質詢我們行政院也知道只是正好現在團隊因為整個患那就簡單再拿出來說一下"},{"start":35319.071,"end":35338.439,"text":"那我要特別拜託因為在剛開始的社聚運能本來是每個小時要載4700多人但是因為實際上不可能擠得跟沙丁魚一樣而且他的班聚後面因為驗收的問題他沒有辦法跑那麼密集所以現在實際的運能大概只有3500人左右"},{"start":35339.119,"end":35361.642,"text":"那各位包括院長部長你在看啊今年113年他每小時的運量已經到了4793人已經是我們實際運能的大概將近比他多出多出30%左右那如果再往上走你看到未來會碰到T3航廈的落成未來不管是"},{"start":35362.883,"end":35377.22,"text":"國際旅客來或準備要出國我想這是國門最重要的交通工具這不是地方的一個捷運那這個部分我覺得看到了未來的一個重大需求那我不知道院長有沒有被告知"},{"start":35379.264,"end":35408.263,"text":"在我們從3月份我們當時交通委員會當然是跟前部長還有鐵道局局長是一樣的那我們特別有趣到我們地方來去做一個溝通那地方至上希望面臨這種運量大幅提升根本一倍的車都不夠那怎麼辦一定要買新的車沒辦法所以他們原本要的量可能是超過20列那後面經過"},{"start":35409.224,"end":35420.35,"text":"﹗"},{"start":35420.956,"end":35445.976,"text":"十輛叫十列抱歉齁十列那其中這個普通車跟那個抱歉一邊是直達車齁直達車普通車總共十列那這個部分有沒有交接啊院長因為這個到時候錢都要跟你要欸因為你知道嗎我們市長已經質詢了一兩年那我就怕沒有交接但是沒有關係不一定要在這裡講啦我們希望把這個問題提出來齁那"},{"start":35448.698,"end":35464.054,"text":"部長,那你說一下好不好,你知道這個情況吧?是,我大致上了解,就是當時有過相關的協議,就是資產移轉的部分跟這個購車的補助,希望兩個能夠是一起討論跟決定。"},{"start":35466.614,"end":35494.493,"text":"這個部分資產移轉跟購車事實上從曾文燦市長的時代就很擔心嘛他說那你就購車也要講清楚現在你們說目前購車你們有提出一個方案當然我認為還沒有公文還沒具體化但我認為這個訊息要交接不能讓我們包括你們鐵道局交通部重新開始比如說二十列車談到了十列幾列直達車幾列普通車已經有個方向了"},{"start":35495.073,"end":35512.975,"text":"這個不要再談,要拜託你們來幫忙。那我想...那也跟委員報告。你說。機捷自從去年我們開始推TPAS之後,機捷的運量增加了大概80%,所以TPAS對機捷的運能的提升其實有很大的幫助,也讓他可以轉虧為盈。"},{"start":35514.577,"end":35536.709,"text":"好我知道你講這個是就技工一次嘛好不好技工一次但是都一樣就是人很多啦人超多的不管是直搭車普通車這是真的啦好謝謝委員我除了去年有出國的時間之外比較少那季節的問題我想我們我可以再去深入的了解再跟委員做報告好事實上季節因為當時的所謂的運量是真的"},{"start":35537.429,"end":35554.822,"text":"不是這樣因為他忘了有人提了行李還提兩顆的這種實在是不夠那也希望有談的方案能夠持續的談下去但現在又遇到一個問題確實非常重要因為他是國家的重要門面國家的門面不是說桃園而已真的是國家的門面"},{"start":35555.583,"end":35582.49,"text":"那我要拜託兩位有一個非常重要的事我覺得大家站在這裡就是解決問題如果所有問題都是這種輕鬆如意的也不需要大師兄或是我們前行政院秘書長你們兩位都是秘書長級的正好很多跨部會協調你知道嗎其實這個我們機場捷運的尤其耗資系統機電耗資系統可歌可泣啊有一個很悲慘的一個這個歷史的一個過程"},{"start":35585.54,"end":35594.912,"text":"那我想我要講這個原因不是講故事而是告訴你最後發生了什麼事啊第一個在過去大家都知道玩紅"},{"start":35596.806,"end":35618.975,"text":"我們早就已經蓋好土木標都已經完成了,站都做好了,車一直不通。而且當時的一個政府不管周遭地方,言了六次宣布明年要通車就絕對沒通,言了六次。那造成很多的一個民怨。那到底是誰惹的禍?原來都是機電耗製系統惹的禍。到底發生了什麼問題呢?因為當時玩紅商社"},{"start":35619.815,"end":35637.888,"text":"他覺得他自己能力夠就標了這樣的一個基電系統他本來應該自己做結果他講說我其實我也不會做他就轉給了英維斯公司英國的英維斯公司他會做就請他來那就實下合約就做嘛就做到最後勒糟糕了"},{"start":35639.178,"end":35649.937,"text":"各做完之後要跟系統整合產生了非常大的問題系統整合一直出問題造成很多很多缺點一直沒有辦法改善"},{"start":35651.367,"end":35673.978,"text":"院長你應該有聽說過這件事因為你做過秘書長你肯定有聽過這件事因為這個是扯了真的非常久即使106年3月2號終於啊就有些缺點不管了就上了就啟動了開始賽課了到現在為止啊到底有沒有合格驗收啊這個問部長好不好部長到底我們集結有沒有合格驗收完成啊"},{"start":35676.038,"end":35702.415,"text":"我知道當時是完紅他是用這個用這個價格標來承攬這個機場捷運的工程所以後來工程會有一個明令就是價格標確實是會造成第一個沒有辦法找到一個優質的廠商那施工品質也堪慮所以所以後來工程會有明令要求所有的工程一定價格一定的金額以上一定要用評選"},{"start":35703.756,"end":35725.999,"text":"好了,其實我問題比較簡單啦,到底有沒有合格驗收,沒有啦,後面是減價驗收啦,缺失就沒辦法,沒辦法,你又不能把車還給他,這東西也不能拆還給他,後面是減價,當然有把它的一些的價金,把它沒入,那你應該知道吧。不過以採購法,減價驗收也是合法驗收的一種方式。合法減價驗收,好不好,跟證一下。"},{"start":35726.94,"end":35754.127,"text":"那為什麼呢?到底差在哪裡?為什麼?因為他到最後機電要做到大家都知道車殼這是骨骼嘛但是真正什麼時候跑什麼時候停安全系統跟營運系統全部都是靠這個機電耗資系統他是靈魂他這個靈魂弄不好所以他當時承諾的不管是行車的速度平均速率跟車距啊幾分鐘可以發一班都做不到好吧那這一套系統"},{"start":35756.98,"end":35779.089,"text":"晚紅商社在我們車上裝的血源系統叫做DTGR就是英維斯來自英國血源的一個系統叫做舊的信號系統那現在發生什麼事呢還沒產完啊那現在做到了再剩兩站就到中立火車站你知道嗎那因為我在現場監督啊"},{"start":35780.503,"end":35780.523,"text":"發報告"},{"start":35800.546,"end":35819.319,"text":"這兩站一樣土木包早就做好了。最後啊積電標真是很坎坷啊驗收延這麼久就積電標從103年的9月發包到108年的7月8月9月整整5年的時間才發包出去。又是誰惹的禍你知道嗎?"},{"start":35820.393,"end":35848.47,"text":"又是耗資系統惹的禍都同樣一個人同樣又是他惹的禍為什麼這時候發生什麼事呢招標了15次5年發生什麼事呢發生了因為招標前面從臺北火車站到中壢外面的車外的系統都是玩紅商社的英維斯的DTGR的車機跟外圍的系統所以我要拜託再招標怎麼辦呢"},{"start":35849.511,"end":35849.631,"text":"因為2013年"},{"start":35874.417,"end":35885.415,"text":"因為是公司已經被併購了2014年他們的政策就改變了所以標了12次沒人來啊就這個系統已經沒有人要做了所以又怎麼解決啊"},{"start":35886.368,"end":35914.294,"text":"最後到第5年的時候這個鐵道局應該很清楚當時副局長他沒有辦法了只要開放把規格開放任何的訊號廠商都可以來任何訊號廠商都可以來因為他問了全世界知名的訊號廠商公司在臺灣沒有一個可以做這種救的所以好吧任何人都可以來那怎麼辦呢所以所以看一下第二個系統出來了"},{"start":35916.989,"end":35932.618,"text":"劉彪15次弄了一個新的系統因為英文字太老舌LGMT西門子兩家不同學員不同系統不同東西不同運作的方式兩個東西我簡稱新跟舊那我跟你講"},{"start":35936.533,"end":35960.382,"text":"因為院長比較少做部長有做過8次那你可能沒有做到總領總領現在不錯總領做到A21的時候還要手動切換一下跟手排車一樣喀喀換成新的系統才能夠向前吐為什麼呢因為車友兩站的車外的系統是西門子的系統那這是全世界唯一應該唯一"},{"start":35962.383,"end":35983.478,"text":"一個車有車載兩個系統這就是現在一個情況好那我現在到底我要講什麼問題你們應該也想到那未來呢現在要買車了桃園市政府、捷工局、大東捷運公司蠻開心的然後因為要跟鐵道局、交通部要呈報細部計劃要實際要有報價要規範那當然去尋價那尋價尋到現在的結果是什麼"},{"start":35989.329,"end":36012.139,"text":"可沒問題。好幾家都會做殼給你。但是靈魂它的耗資系統呢?怎麼辦呢?沒有人要啊。那個院長部長看一下喔。他們3月多到4月甚至發到我們外交部英國駐外辦事處。結果在4月10日德國西門子他回函喔。"},{"start":36013.581,"end":36040.67,"text":"回憨說什麼就簡單你自己看一下啦黃色部分他說因為4號的系統啊DTGR由於第三方供貨已停產了好不好第三個如果真列的真夠列車搭載這個系統的解決方案對他們來說不可行就算現在中古的湊給你未來要維修20年我也幹不下去所以這是目前為止"},{"start":36041.653,"end":36065.72,"text":"我們在桃園他們要買車遇到了一個問題就是這個問題比剛剛那個中壢的兩站更嚴重因為你裝不到舊的系統從台北火車站開到我們中壢這個舊的系統都沒人跑他這個車也沒有辦法買所以這個根本的問題就完全沒有辦法解決我想這個問部長因為這個問題細一點部長你有沒有聽說過到這個問題"},{"start":36071.682,"end":36089.887,"text":"講真的這個問題我初步有了解但是還因為這個太技術性就是說能不能雙系統因為現在有點是在形式上是有有一些列車是有雙系統他到了A21他要切換成西門子的系統"},{"start":36090.814,"end":36093.475,"text":"所以你不清楚我今天特別代表鐵道局我做簡報"},{"start":36109.04,"end":36137.568,"text":"最清楚的簡報給你報告讓你了解鐵道局回去再補充說明現在問題怎麼解決你買了實列車放在A站台北火車站你用鞭子鞭它不會動喔因為裡面沒有裝信號系統沒有裝英維斯的DTG啊它沒有這個系統那你說我裝第二套系統西門澤第二套系統可以你就跑中壢兩站因為只有最後兩站是新的系統"},{"start":36138.348,"end":36164.85,"text":"你不可能嘛可是你不買車會變成國門的笑話所以今天我要把這個問題不容易解決但是要直接面對因為當時不知道為什麼我們運氣這麼好這一家英維斯的訊號號誌系統全世界的捷運只賣了兩家一個是台灣的這個季節第二個是英國的維羅利亞縣"},{"start":36166.132,"end":36170.499,"text":"我有聽說維羅里亞縣他也準備其他整合他們系統都要換"},{"start":36171.581,"end":36196.135,"text":"不要到最後我們的車開到一半也沒有地方修我們現在講真的舊的舊的車我問過了還有部分的備料我自己覺得可能開個五年五年六年大概還有的修主機板壞了沒辦法我們還可以修不然拿到我們數位部去修也可以我相信應該還是可以修好可是你新車怎麼辦時間這麼緊迫你要怎麼辦"},{"start":36199.557,"end":36227.238,"text":"所以我想這個因為我也覺得這不是部長單獨可以去這個解決的好那你看喔兵臨城下囉因為他發文給現在這件事情最有效率的只有我們外交部今天沒有來因為就是我們桃園捷運公司行文解公局行文給這個英國代表處啦英為斯不知道怎麼樣天罡皇帝委員拜託幫我們去查一下只有他當天"},{"start":36229.064,"end":36251.808,"text":"這個接到函,三天之後就回函了。就結論是說,不好意思喔,一般商務啊,干我屁事啊,大概是這樣。啊就這樣,求助無門啊。所以今天我們為什麼在那邊講,說好像都不是國家的事,啊拜託幫我們去問一下都不行,就是說這個都沒問題。那右手邊,我們這個部長要特別注意,6月26號,6月26號,因為他們已經弄了將近兩個月,沒辦法求助無門。"},{"start":36256.748,"end":36284.296,"text":"連坐車的廠商他們都去問我可以賣你車那我再問我去問一下信號系統因為車載系統要鎖的位置他也要預留這些位置他們也問不到他說停產了所以這個問題現在的問題已經給鐵道局了馬上交通部你要做決定因為這個事情真的不能拖你要買個車真的到位三年五年不見得到得了尤其是你現在只剩兩個選擇"},{"start":36286.65,"end":36301.207,"text":"院長我想你協調過這麼多次現在問題點真的就只有兩個選擇都很艱難第一個選擇就是能不能集全國之力找到舊的耗資系統DTGR"},{"start":36301.988,"end":36322.432,"text":"﹗"},{"start":36322.552,"end":36342.552,"text":"那另外第二種方式呢?如果你真的買不到怎麼辦?因為現在都問不到怎麼辦?院長你要不要說一下?如果都買不到,你有沒有什麼初步的想法?我的想法是因為他現在雖然使用零線不到啦,但是安全的考量看有沒有特別的需求,否則就是現在如果買到舊的未來還是問題。況現在要買到舊的可能很麻煩。"},{"start":36346.138,"end":36371.397,"text":"可能就是要全線做一個決心。問題講出來,回去研究一下解決之道。部長咧?因為就是說這個廠商停產或是被購併、被併購這個坦白說是屬於不可抗力的因素。因為當時在招標的時候沒有預料到使用的這個系統後來這個廠商會已經不存在或是停產。"},{"start":36372.097,"end":36381.62,"text":"所以我想這個部分我們會再跟相關的審計單位來做請示跟考量有沒有辦法因為一般來講是希望能夠用15年的年限"},{"start":36382.711,"end":36410.856,"text":"我是覺得長痛不如短痛有很多案子越拖可能要花的錢越多絕對不會越少那現在這個問題問題是我們國門重要的交通真的一天也不能停你也沒有辦法這個車真的有這個需求就算台灣市政府或者大宗捷運公司說不買你還要逼他你這樣不行啊到台灣的旅客都不滿意所以我們會找國內的機電專家大家來一起及時廣譯這個部分第一個舊系統能不能找到或者取代品有沒有影響到專利這解決的第一個方案"},{"start":36411.616,"end":36430.876,"text":"第二個方案,那個方案就不換車,應該沒有這個方案,第二個方案就是提前重置嘛,那就沒辦法,那就只有最新的一些系統,那就從這個A1台北火車站到現在的A21,它的車外的系統,車外的系統,"},{"start":36432.028,"end":36432.048,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":36456.864,"end":36466.842,"text":"解決這個問題。第二個可以讓新北市已經提了超多次給交通部他有兩個未來的區段徵收區人會住進來A2A"},{"start":36471.753,"end":36495.399,"text":"因為他要蓋啊沒有訊號系統啊沒有辦法停啊如果可以更新系統他們一併新設站可以解決這個部分因為我認為是行政院級的一個要統合的一個問題是不是能拜託我們卓院長跟我們的部長還有鐵道局能夠深思這個問題在三個月之內你總是要一個方向不然都來不及可以嗎"},{"start":36496.259,"end":36523.665,"text":"好,謝謝委員,今天的提醒非常重要好,謝謝盧委員好,謝謝院長陳寅委員之質詢已書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報下一位我們請林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":36542.43,"end":36547.113,"text":"在今天進入有關於交通跟觀光今天這樣一個主題之前呢我想要借禮拜二"},{"start":36565.643,"end":36584.744,"text":"我提的一個議題然後過渡到今天有關於就是交通相關的一個議題那禮拜二我提到了那個運動發展部的一個成立那這個部分我提醒院長一下就是在成立的這個過程當中不知道行政院這邊有沒有一個時間表"},{"start":36587.112,"end":36610.89,"text":"時間表因為牽扯到中央機關組織法的一個調整所以一定是要在大家有這樣的共識底下我們來提出但是內部就這個組織這個未來的這個部的一個組織的這個規劃我們都已經整併的在進行那我希望能夠先把這個規劃向外界來說明那我預計大概在在8月的時候來做這樣子8、9月的時候看能不能有一個初步的規劃出來"},{"start":36611.53,"end":36639.484,"text":"好的謝謝本席這邊也知道你們有幾個規劃的一個跟大眾來做溝通的一個規劃設計那所以在這個部分我提出一個建議建議在明年的這個預算年度也就是明年在我們立法院的第四個會期那這邊能夠有很具體的一個結果那這樣在設立的一個期程上賴總統的政見是比較有機會完成的那這是本席的一個建議不曉得院長您的看法"},{"start":36639.804,"end":36664.117,"text":"我們朝這個目標跟時間來努力好的謝謝那從這個一個議題那我要先提醒一下有關於今天我們這個主要的議題在最近關於這個大家應該前幾天知道在新竹的這個新岳的這個沙灘這邊發生了一個有關於高中生戲水的一個狀況那在昨天的兩個人失聯"},{"start":36665.337,"end":36665.457,"text":"關於海灘管理﹚"},{"start":36686.736,"end":36715.963,"text":"行政院在整個的海岸的這個安全上有沒有什麼樣一個想法規劃讓大家在整個暑假能夠安全無虞這個西邊啊海邊啊經常在這個暑假發生這樣的遺憾的事情那我想地方政府也要跟中央政府一起合作是不是有充足的人力或是明顯的告示那麼以及在現場場地的維護等等這個都需要互相的來協助跟努力的"},{"start":36717.224,"end":36732.539,"text":"謝謝院長您講到一個重點那本席這邊有一個建議本席看到這樣一個問題其實很重要一點就您剛才也有講到有沒有充足的人力那所以暑假快到了這個其實跟教育有很大的一個關係也就是說在我們剛才講的這個體育署"},{"start":36734.301,"end":36762.772,"text":"那目前的一個在海岸的這個人力是不是足夠?現在可能在這個游泳池有很多的一個救援的人力那但是在沙灘海岸那這個跟觀光署有比較大的一個關係或是交通部很大一個關係你們在其實海岸的安全還有路上的安全其實有相關的這個單位去做處理那當然跟縣市政府要一起來共同的守護那這個部分不知道交通部現在對於這個暑假目前的一個規劃"},{"start":36764.604,"end":36780.562,"text":"我想我們會針對這些有民眾常遊棄的地方那跟地方政府大家來再做一次安全措施或是相關的安全的這個部分的這個評估跟跟這個維護的這個進一步的措施"},{"start":36781.582,"end":36801.488,"text":"謝謝部長,所以我這邊特別提醒,現在暑假已經開始了,所以可能在現在就趕快先來,就這個部分,就是院裡面還有跟地方政府,那是不是交通部這邊來做一個主導,針對海岸的觀光,海岸的汐水,在暑假讓大家能夠有一個安全的暑期生活,好不好?"},{"start":36806.332,"end":36819.826,"text":"本席本席會這樣講是因為本席其實經常都在海岸這是本席那我是經常都在海上開帆船的所以對於海域的這個狀況本席略有所知所以剛才院長所提的這個人"},{"start":36821.408,"end":36839.855,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":36839.895,"end":36869.01,"text":"更積極的一些未來所以在這樣的提醒之下我今天一個主題是要對於這個無動力相關的一個議題來跟院長這邊做一個交流所以接下來一張我們請看一下這個我們知道現在大家交通部其實現在一直在推環島那無動力的這個自行車那本席這邊是要提醒是待會會給你們看幾個案例所以這個部分是說用生命的環島那大卡車"},{"start":36869.83,"end":36870.21,"text":"現在請看目前動的"},{"start":36888.287,"end":36917.285,"text":"這應該是我們不好意思上面也是本席本席在2021年在2021年那參加了這個100公里的這個自行車的挑戰那這個是本席所騎的每一段那不知道那個院長這邊有沒有看得出來其實在陸服的部分有很嚴重的這個衝擊也就是說基本上腳踏車很多時候是沒有地方可以騎的那我們接下來看下面一個這個是2024年那本席在過年的時候"},{"start":36917.765,"end":36928.464,"text":"也要親自再看一下我們的這個道路那不知道院長有沒有看出問題這邊有一個騎士騎自行車的那不曉得你有沒有發現他的周遭是什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":36930.314,"end":36954.463,"text":"大車的環圍繞當中是的大車就圍繞他那本席在全島這樣這不只參加過這一次那個200公里的也有挑戰過那本席就發現其實自行車的這個環境很不友善不僅是在市區那尤其是在這些部落原鄉還有這個台灣的公路都是一個很大的問題那我們再來看更可怕更危險的這個"},{"start":36956.752,"end":36978.032,"text":"接下來所看到的這個圖這個是在花蓮清水段來跟東澳南澳的這個路段那這已經是04、03之前的一個狀況了那04、03之後我們知道更辛苦了那過去還有人在騎現在可能很難騎那未來不知道怎麼騎那這個可能是交通部必須要去正視的一個問題"},{"start":36978.953,"end":36980.594,"text":"其實我們對自行車也都非常的愛好所以非常認同這句話就臺灣其實很美麗"},{"start":37003.145,"end":37024.402,"text":"現在我們有幾個計畫正在進行首先就是目前北海岸跟東北角除了河濱公園的自行車道是可以從淡水一直到河濱公園這是有被保護的車道可是本席還有參加一些比賽的時候事實上它不可能在比如說觀光局的這樣相關的這個場域裡面所以目前這個計畫裡面包括要從淡水做到基隆"},{"start":37029.326,"end":37029.346,"text":"﹚二、"},{"start":37057.944,"end":37083.322,"text":"西濱其實現在已經從桃園到新竹甚至到苗栗都已經有專用道有一些道路是沒有連起來的本席在這邊做一些提醒那現在公路局正在處理這個部分他會配合西濱的一些改善把從巴黎巴黎的這個海港海岸這邊一直到苗栗都會有一個專用道來把它串聯"},{"start":37083.962,"end":37108.459,"text":"好的,但本席樂見這樣子的一個規劃,那也期待在規劃的時候能夠更細緻。那這個也在這個57億裡面會來達成。那剛剛提到最嚴重的就是蘇花。對對對,那這一段我想可能這個交通部要結合路政司、觀光署還有相關的這個運營所此類等等。那這些單位其實要就不同的這種用路的這個方式來做相關的規劃。"},{"start":37109.46,"end":37137.589,"text":"那還有我們現在在做的花東景觀景觀快速景觀道路花東景觀道路兩旁都有留相關的自行車騎乘或者是人行的空間是那這邊我要跟部長提醒的就是說自行車還有人行其實在部落這個進入部落這個部分其實也是應該做一些相關的規劃那我們先談那個安全的問題那所以呢接下來給那個部長"},{"start":37138.069,"end":37138.469,"text":"議員長報告施政院院長報告"},{"start":37157.401,"end":37159.222,"text":"接下來本席要談一個概念有關於這個"},{"start":37175.834,"end":37202.615,"text":"本席其實在上個會期也有談那這個會期再重新談一下然後目前先用這樣一個計畫跟名稱來講也就是一個福爾摩沙的徒步入網那我們知道交通部目前在自行車的這個部分也就是無動力啦也做了一些規劃那但是呢在徒步的這個部分有的時候不太友善那有的時候不太完備所以本席這邊提出可不可以透過目前已有的環島一號線然後跟台灣的長步道"},{"start":37203.095,"end":37230.895,"text":"那部長知不知道國家綠道有哪三條?國家級綠道原來規劃是七條。目前有三條嗎?現在有三條比較受歡迎。你有走過嗎?有部分有走過。你們部分走過?那本席走過一條啦。整整一條待會跟您分享。其中有一條是我在台南做的。就是山海關那一條嗎?對,山海郡。那有一個是張之隙道。那北邊就是淡南古道。"},{"start":37232.576,"end":37250.398,"text":"所以在這個部落跟村落之間的連結本期期待這個交通部能夠讓他更完備所以接下來第一個還是安全的問題這個是一個YouTuber叫Ava那他在走路的時候經常是沒地方走的自行車都沒地方走更何況人"},{"start":37252.901,"end":37269.102,"text":"安全性的問題部落間動態的部分因為setting的關係不好意思請院長再彎一下頭看部落常常是車子也行部落的老人的賓士"},{"start":37269.682,"end":37271.944,"text":"接下來本席跟您分享一下這個概念來自於本席其實這幾年經常在國外走"},{"start":37295.603,"end":37313.341,"text":"那剛才我聽到盧委員在問你們機場捷運有沒有常搭那本席也是常搭那不僅常搭本席也不太喜歡老是開車所以各位我們在2017年2018年疫情前經常都在走動那世界文化遺產的這個聖亞各路本席已經走過了4條走過4次"},{"start":37314.923,"end":37316.144,"text":"這樣一個概念其實就跟本席剛才所講的這個路網"},{"start":37329.94,"end":37330.12,"text":"您講的7條國家綠道"},{"start":37356.049,"end":37357.85,"text":"我要對委員表示非常的敬佩你不僅這個文武雙全還是海陸健將怎麼出那麼多地方"},{"start":37382.5,"end":37398.698,"text":"國家未來的國家及綠道除了剛剛部長講的4條以外未來我們在台塘還有原住民古道還有吉良山脈這3條規劃中的那國發會我會請他學習委員剛剛講的那樣的精神跟規劃盡量以人安全為本的方式來做規劃"},{"start":37399.438,"end":37418.312,"text":"最後一個提醒也就是其實我們走過這些道路然後不僅是水路還是道路能夠留下一些痕跡應該是我們人生很期待的一個事情所以大家可以去參考部裡面其實以前做過這個蓋章或者是每個地方跟地方的產業做一些聯動那這個部分其實是可以"},{"start":37419.052,"end":37434.281,"text":"有更大的一個效果。那談到這邊最後要做一個危險性的提醒。也就是部落的這個邊坡問題。那本席的研究室有跟這個交通部這邊來做了一個討論。那就發現目前部落的這個邊坡其實沒有做相關的一個"},{"start":37434.821,"end":37459.889,"text":"﹚檢視"},{"start":37481.911,"end":37486.276,"text":"好,謝謝林委員。謝謝左院長。"},{"start":37487.557,"end":37508.436,"text":"李坤哲委員之質詢以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報。報告院會本日排定質詢的委員均與質詢均與詢答完畢。謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。七月九日星期二上午9時繼續開會進行交通組織質詢。現在休息。"}]}},{"id":"154552","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154552","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e97ebfb15aae184f3ba412a25d0aa7d1a4947c19e37f8cb803834d5112c71ed9d465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"18:38:49 - 18:55:00","影片長度":"00:16:11","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T18:38:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T18:55:00+08:00","duration":971,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":115,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（18時39分）謝謝主席，我們請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["林委員倩綺：院長好。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：一整天辛苦了！在今天進入有關交通跟觀光這樣一個主題之前，我想要藉禮拜二我提的一個議題，然後過渡到今天交通相關的議題。禮拜二我提到了運動發展部的成立，這個部分我提醒院長一下，就是在成立的過程當中，不知道行政院這邊有沒有一個時間表？"],["卓院長榮泰：關於時間表，因為它牽扯到中央機關組織法的調整，所以我們一定要在大家有這樣的共識底下來提出，但是內部就未來這個部的組織規劃，我們都已經縝密的在進行，我希望能夠先把這個規劃向外界說明，我預計大概在8、9月的時候，看能不能有一個初步的規劃出來。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。本席這邊也知道你們有幾個跟大眾來做溝通的規劃設計，所以在這個部分，我提出一個建議，建議在明年的預算年度，也就是明年大概我們立法院的第4個會期能夠有很具體的一個結果，這樣在設立的期程上，賴總統的政見是比較有機會完成的。這是本席的建議，不曉得院長您的看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們朝這個目標跟時間來努力。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。從這個議題，我要先提醒一下有關於今天我們主要的議題，大家應該知道前幾天在新竹的新月沙灘發生了一件有關於高中生戲水的事件，其中有兩個人被救起來了，一個人失聯，但是今天那個人也找到了。所以就這件事情來提醒，在暑假期間有關於海灘的管理，不知道交通部這邊有沒有什麼樣的方案，讓大家在暑假能夠很安心的在海灘戲水，這部分不知道行政院在整個海岸的安全上，有沒有什麼樣的想法、規劃，讓大家在整個暑假能夠安全無虞？"],["卓院長榮泰：溪邊、海邊經常在暑假發生這類遺憾的事情，我想地方政府也要跟中央政府一起合作，是不是有充足的人力或是明顯的告示，以及現場場地的維護等等，都需要互相的協助跟努力，那……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。院長，你講到一個重點，本席這邊有一個建議，本席看到這個問題，很重要的一點就是您剛才也有講到，有沒有充足的人力。暑假快到了，這個其實跟教育有很大的關係，也就是我們剛才講的體育署，目前在海岸的人力是不是足夠。現在可能在游泳池有很多的救援人力，但是在沙灘、海岸，這個跟觀光署或是交通部有很大的關係，你們在海岸的安全還有路上的安全，其實有相關的單位去做處理，當然跟縣市政府要一起來共同的守護，這個部分不知道交通部現在對於暑假的規劃為何？"],["李部長孟諺：我想我們會針對這些民眾常遊憩的地方，跟地方政府大家來再做一次安全相關部分的評估跟進一步維護的措施。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝部長。所以我這邊特別提醒，現在暑假已經開始了，可能現在就要趕快先就這個部分，院裡面跟地方政府，是不是交通部這邊來做主導，針對海岸的觀光、海岸的戲水，在暑假讓大家能夠有一個安全的暑期生活，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["林委員倩綺：這點希望交通部能夠更積極、主動地來做，本席這邊有一個提醒。本席會這樣講是因為，本席其實經常都在海岸，照片上這是本席，我也是經常都在海上開帆船的，對於海域的狀況，本席略有所知，所以剛才院長所提的人力，這個不僅涉及觀光、交通等相關單位，教育其實也很重要，人員的巡查是目前即時可做的，但是海洋教育確實應該由交通部跟教育部，好好的針對這一塊來提供給大家更積極的未來。","在這樣的提醒之下，我今天有一個主題是要針對無動力的相關議題來跟院長這邊做個交流。請看接下來這一張，我們知道現在交通部一直在推無動力自行車環島，本席待會會給你們看幾個案例，這邊要提醒的是，這個部分可是說用生命環島，大卡車、自行車什麼時候能夠分道？","因為你們有一個精進的計畫，待會我們可能要就這個精進的計畫知道你們未來這四年五十七億多的錢要怎麼處理。現在請看這個目前在動的部分，不好意思，在這上面也是本席，本席在2021年參加了這個100公里的自行車挑戰，這個是本席所騎的每一段，不知道院長有沒有看出來，其實在路幅的部分有很嚴重的衝擊，也就是說，基本上，腳踏車在很多時候是沒有地方可以騎的。我們接下來看下面一個，這個是在2024年，本席在過年的時候又親自再看一下我們的道路，不知道院長有沒有看出問題？這邊有一個騎自行車的騎士，不曉得你有沒有發現他的周遭是什麼樣的狀況？"],["卓院長榮泰：都在大車的圍繞當中。"],["林委員倩綺：是的，大車就圍繞他，本席在全島不只參加過這一次，也有挑戰過200公里的，本席就發現，其實騎自行車的環境很不友善，不僅是在市區，尤其是在部落、原鄉還有臺灣的公路都是一個很大的問題。","我們再來看更可怕、更危險的，接下來所看到的這個圖，是在花蓮清水斷崖跟東澳─南澳路段，這是0403之前的狀況，我們知道在0403之後就更辛苦了。過去還有人在騎，現在可能很難騎，未來不知道怎麼騎，這個可能是交通部必須要去正視的一個問題，因為確實有很多人這樣子騎來騎去，包括本席。本席是很實地的騎，而不是只有在剪綵的時候才騎一段，是實地的在全國都有這樣子騎，不知道部長對這個部分有什麼樣的看法？"],["李部長孟諺：其實我們對自行車也都非常的愛好，所以非常認同這句話，就是「臺灣騎時很美麗」。現在我們有幾個計畫正在進行，首先就是目前在北海岸跟東北角，除了河濱公園的自行車道是可以從淡水一直到龍潭……"],["林委員倩綺：是，河濱公園就是有被保護的車道，可是本席還有在參加一些比賽的時候，事實上，它不可能在比如說觀光局相關的這個場域裡面，所以在……"],["李部長孟諺：我跟委員報告，目前在這個計畫裡面包括要從淡水做到基隆，沿著台2線會有一個專用道，把既有的專用道串連在一起。第二個就是會從基隆到東北角，甚至到宜蘭的頭城這一帶，我們也希望儘量把專用道做起來，讓台2線的大卡車跟自行車不會因為爭道而產生危險。所以這個是第一階段，我們這個計畫應該在未來兩三年左右就會陸續的實現。另外，西濱其實現在已經從桃園到新竹，甚至到苗栗……"],["林委員倩綺：本席有騎過那一段。"],["李部長孟諺：都已經有專用道。"],["林委員倩綺：是。"],["李部長孟諺：都陸續有專用道。"],["林委員倩綺：但是有一些道路是沒有連起來的，本席在這邊做一些提醒。"],["李部長孟諺：對，現在公路局正在處理這個部分，他們會配合西濱的一些改善，從八里的海岸這邊一直到苗栗都會有一個專用道來把它串連。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，本席樂見這樣子的一個規劃，也期待在規劃的時候能夠更細緻。"],["李部長孟諺：這個也在這筆57億裡面會來達成。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，那至少……"],["李部長孟諺：剛剛提到最嚴重的就是蘇花。"],["林委員倩綺：對，這一段我想可能交通部要結合路政司、觀光署還有運研所等相關單位，這些單位其實要就不同的用路方式來做相關的規劃。"],["李部長孟諺：還有我們現在在做的花東景觀道路，在花東景觀道路兩旁都有留相關的自行車騎乘或者是人行的空間，用綠帶去組合，這一百多公里都有。"],["林委員倩綺：是，在這邊我要跟部長提醒的就是說，自行車還有行人在進入部落這個部分其實也應該做一些相關的規劃。我們先談安全的問題，接下來請部長還有院長看一下，這個是這幾年自行車騎士死亡跟受傷的數據，如果未來有這樣一個計畫，院長跟部長是不是可以讓死亡跟受傷的人數變少？我想應該朝減少這個數字的計畫目標去進行。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，這個部分希望院長跟部長能夠給本席承諾。"],["李部長孟諺：是的，我們很期待東北角跟……"],["林委員倩綺：至少有一個數據的目標，讓這樣子比較負面的數據能夠減低。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來本席要談一個概念，本席其實在上個會期也有談，這個會期再重新談一下，目前先用這樣一個計畫跟名稱來講，就是福爾摩沙徒步路網，我們知道交通部目前在自行車，也就是無動力這部分做了一些規劃，但是在徒步這部分的路網有的時候不太友善也不太完備，所以本席在此提出，可不可以利用目前已有的環島1號線跟臺灣的長步道？不知道部長知不知道國家綠道有哪三條？"],["李部長孟諺：國家級綠道原來規劃是七條。"],["林委員倩綺：目前有三條。"],["李部長孟諺：現在有三條比較受歡迎。"],["林委員倩綺：你有走過嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：有部分有走過。"],["林委員倩綺：本席走過一條，整整一條，待會跟您分享。"],["李部長孟諺：其中有一條是我在臺南做的。"],["林委員倩綺：就是山海圳那一條，是吧？"],["李部長孟諺：山海圳，還有一條是樟之細路，北邊就是淡蘭古道。"],["林委員倩綺：所以在部落跟村落之間的連結，本席期待交通部能夠讓它更完備。","接下來第一個還是安全的問題，這是一個YouTuber叫Eva，他在走路的時候經常是沒地方走的，自行車都沒地方走，更何況人，這個是安全性的問題。第二個部分是部落間，各位可以看一下動態的部分，我們在部落常常是，車子也行，然後部落的老人的「賓士」也要跟車子一起共用道路，也請交通部再重新檢視村落跟部落裡面的交通安全，看看道路有沒有可能分道，或者是路幅是不是可以做得出來。","接下來本席跟您分享一下，本席這幾年經常在國外走，剛才我聽到魯委員在問你們有沒有常搭機場捷運，本席也是常搭，本席也不太喜歡老是開車，所以在2017年、2018年疫情前經常都在走動，世界文化遺產聖雅各路本席已經走過了四條，走過四次，第一年走了兩百公里，第二年走了三百多公里，第三次走了一千零七百公里，中間還有一次走了三百三十四公里，這樣一個概念其實就是本席剛才所講的，這個路網不僅是公路，也可以是進入村落還有部落的步道，這是給我們說的最弱勢的徒步的人的道路。現在其實有越來越多人這樣走，不是只有登山，是徒步，那我們如何在全國的路網裡面把人徒步的路網做出來，希望能夠連接您講的七條國家綠道，讓大家能夠透過這樣一個路網在臺灣行走？這是本席對院長提出來的一個期待跟建議，我想我們對於所謂交通上最弱勢的人的尊重應該是偉大國家的一個表現，提供你們參考。"],["卓院長榮泰：我要對委員表示非常的敬佩，你不僅文武雙全，還是海陸健將，走過那麼多地方。未來的國家級綠道，除了剛剛部長講的四條以外，未來還有台糖、原住民古道、脊梁山脈保育綠道這三條規劃中的，我會請國發會學習委員剛剛講的那樣的精神去規劃，儘量以人、安全為本的方式來做規劃。"],["林委員倩綺：最後一個提醒就是我們走過這些道路，不管是水路還是道路，如果能夠留下一些痕跡，應該是我們人生很期待的一個事情，所以大家可以去參考國外的作法，部裡面以前做過蓋章，或者是每個地方跟地方產業做一些連動，這樣可以有更大的效果。","談到這邊，也要做一個有關危險性的提醒，也就是部落的邊坡問題。本席的研究室有跟交通部做過討論，發現目前部落的邊坡沒有做相關的檢視，就是做A、B、C的分級和處理，基本上沒有基本資料，所以我們要去處理部落的安全其實是很難有答案的，不知道部長在這部分是不是可以承諾本席，針對部落的邊坡做相關的檢視？"],["李部長孟諺：我想這部分可能需要跨部會來協調，因為交通部主管的部分是道路的邊坡，但有些部落的邊坡不完全是道路，需要跟相關的部會一起來合作。"],["林委員倩綺：那可以開始吧？"],["李部長孟諺：我們請政委來協助做跨部會的協商。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們加速來改善，謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。"],["委員林倩綺書面補充資料：","主旨：本院林倩綺委員，為釐清交通部現行交通安全政策、原住民部落交通、居住安全與公車司機缺問題，特向交通部提出書面質詢。","說明：","一、目前我國已開通環島1號線，然環島1號現行道路設計對於自行車與徒步行人不友善，以北宜公路與蘇花公路為例，幾乎沒有獨立自行車道與人行道提供，被迫與大型客貨車共用一道，且兩公路山路蜿蜒，行車死角多，大客車的車流量大，對於共用一道的自行車、行人有極大安全疑慮，根據交通部統計109-112年間共有961人死於自行車交通事故、1605名行人死亡。請交通部研擬環島1號線全線增加自行車道與人行道並於一個月內提出書面報告。","二、花東地區，吸引國內外大量旅客前來旅遊，目前有台9線與台11線兩條道路貫穿花東地區，然本席發現台9與台11線之旅客多為經過部落，沒有做停留，為此，建請行政院長與交通部長開拓與部落連結之長步道，讓徒步朝聖者與旅客沿步道接觸原民文化、帶動當地方展。請交通部研擬並於一個月內提出具體報告。","三、請交通部與原民會跨部會合作，繪製部落地圖，將台灣約740個部落位置在部落地圖中標示出，做出部落簡介並公開出版發行，讓國人與國外旅客得以普遍接收該資訊。請交通部研擬並於一個月內提出。","四、近日邊坡坍方事件頻傳，除基隆潮境公園外，花蓮縣秀林鄉文蘭村、屏東霧台神山部落甚至是蘇花公路皆有坍方發生，邊坡問題有急迫性，台灣多有原鄉部落靠近邊坡，交通安全堪慮。請交通部針對部落周圍邊坡做出具體統計，並加強巡檢。兩周內提出統計資料。","五、現今國內各地公車駕駛員缺工問題嚴峻，高雄7家業者面臨至少70位職缺，本席上月知悉交通部目前正研議有關外籍人士投入公車司機一事，本席請交通部優先研議擴大招募與改善公車駕駛員之職場環境。並於一個月內以書面方式提出改善方針。原住民族人口目前就業佔比中，運輸業排在前七大類，請交通部與勞動部研評估將公路汽車客運業與市區汽車客運業納入「留用外國中階技術人力計畫」外，一併提出相對應措施針對向原住民族人口擴大招募公車駕駛員之職位，並於一個月內以書面提出可行性評估報告。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝卓院長。","李昆澤委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員李昆澤書面質詢：","公共工程傷亡以安全設備設施不足為大宗","公共工程中的勞動安全問題，一直是本席最重視的問題，因此過去本席就要求過工程查核的比例應達到10%，從稽查面來保障公共工程的工地安全及建造品質。","這樣的作法如果從裁罰件數來看，的確有產生部分的成效，以職安署2021到2023年的統計來看，裁罰的件數以每年2,000件左右的速度減少。","如果以違法樣態來看，違反職業安全衛生法第6條（缺乏必要安全衛生設備及措施）以及第23條（未制定安全管理計畫、缺乏安全衛生人員及未完成自動檢查）。","再延伸到發生的事故因素來看，依照統計：近三年前三大職災受傷因素，分別是跌倒平均約3,000多件、被刺割擦傷平均約1,900件、被捲夾平均約1,500件。","以職災死亡來看，則是以翻滾掉落、物體倒崩塌、被夾捲為最主要的死亡因素。","由裁罰的樣態及受傷死亡的樣態都能看出，在目前的工程環境中，最容易造成事故傷亡的往往就是缺乏必要的安全衛生設施及措施，以及缺少安全管理計畫！","從裁罰件數與罰鍰金額的狀態來看，也可以看出雖然裁罰件數是逐年下降，但平均的裁罰金額卻是逐年的上升，由此可知公共工程違規的嚴重性是越來越嚴重。","行政院應督促工程會加強對公共工程的勞動安全改善除了加強工程查核之外，應有其他改進的作為。","評分及格最低標模式研議納入職業安全衛生評分","公共工程的安全衛生改善，除了要建立完整的工程及人員履歷，加強稽查面的查核與全民督工外，更重要的是我們要提升公共工程承包業者的品質！","工程會有創設新的招標機制「評分及格最低標」，要求業者參與投標需要先進行評分，且評分須達八十分以上，才能以最低標的方式進行投標。","以這樣的方式，對不良廠商資格先進行篩選，排除有不良紀錄的業者參與投標，改善了過去最低標中有部分廠商為了壓低價格搶標而不顧工程品質的問題！","這樣的招標方式工程會應研議將職場安全衛生也納入評分的項目，讓公共工程的安全衛生品質能更加提升。","運安會成立近四年，已累積大量運輸安全改善建議","強化事故調查量能、提出改善建議及監督改善落實，是運安會最重要的三項業務，這三項業務對台灣的道路交通安全改善有重大的意義，也是本席推動運安會成立最主要的目標。","從成立至今累積非常多且重要的改善建議，這些都是交通安全改善非常重要的基礎資料！","但以目前運安會網站公布的改善建議來說，雖然內容足夠詳細，卻非常難以查詢及進行資料分析！","以2022年0528臺鐵第177次車竹南站重大鐵道事故為例可以看出，圖上只有受建議單位及處理狀態兩項分類；但如果仔細去看建議內容，就可以依照改善建議的類型，分出：","制度類的─檢查項目、規章修改、負責人制度等等","人員類的─人員培訓","機械類的─閘瓦積鐵、踏面受損、告警系統","運安會應該將各交通系統內的改善建議進一步分類，並且針對類型進行統計，才能有效統計出相同或類似的問題，進一步提出系統性的改善建議！","建立統計儀表板，強化樣態統計及系統性問題改善","不只是要進行樣態統計跟系統性分析之外，相關的內容也應即時公開，建立安全改善建議的儀表板，顯示出目前改善建議的落實情況！讓民眾可以即時查閱，並且開放累積的統計資料查詢！","交通系統的監督改善，不僅是運安會的責任，更經常是全國矚目的問題！運安會更要盡可能的把事故的相關資訊公布透明，才能有效的督促交通系統進行改善！","改善建議遲遲未改善，運安會應加強單位溝通","不只是應該進行資料統整，依照今年3月份運安會最新出爐的「年度運輸安全改善建議評估報告」中，改善建議結案率一項也可以明顯看出來，目前各項交通運輸系統的安全改善建議結案率，除了飛航的部分最高僅約75%最低甚至只有62%。","當然，對比前年的數據，可以看出改善建議結案率整體有明顯的上升，這部分運安會功不可沒，但仍有3-4成左右的改善建議未完成是不爭的事實！尤其在水路的部分，水路案件案件數量大量的增加，也代表著安全風險的增加，運安會應督促相關單位進行改善。","日本人口約為臺灣5.3倍，交通事故及死傷卻遠低於臺灣","交通安全一直是本席最在意的議題，也多次提醒交通部我國的道路交通安全，對比日本來看是不及格的，以2023年全年統計來看，日本人口約是我國的5.3倍，但日本的交通事故件數卻比我國少9萬4,996件，死亡人數少345人，受傷人數少17萬1,262人。","此外，在鐵道事故的部分，日本鐵道總長2萬7,311公里，臺灣鐵道總長1,065公里（日本長度約25.6倍），但2023年日本全年鐵道事故卻比台灣少219件，在死傷人數方面更是達到直接事故0死亡15人受傷。","過去交通部也曾宣示交通事故、死亡數要每年降低5%，交通部今年有沒有辦法達成，請簡單說明一下。","日本的交通改善歷史來看，目前全年道路事故件數只有過往的30%不到，死傷人數更是只有過去的15%左右，鐵道事故件數只剩下40%左右，並且仍在逐年下降中。","同時，在高鐵的方面雖然目前沒有出現傷亡事故，但行車異常事故卻從2021年的16件到2023年的36件，開始有逐年上升的趨勢，今年四月就已經出現5件，交通部應密切注意高鐵有沒有進行改善。","任何交通事故都會造成家庭永久的傷害，交通部不能僅是達成每年的減少目標，更是要持續的精進能不能有更好的方式來進行交通改善，0死亡願景是事關國人交通安全，交通部最重要的任務，交通部務必要達成。","國家道路交通安全綱要計畫辦理情形","過去本席多次要求交通部推動各項安全改善措施，包含交通安全基本法、道路安全檢核機制入法、交通安全綱要計畫，也一力推動運安會的成立，台鐵四大安全改善等多項計畫，也與交通部進行反復的協調與溝通，最重要的目標就是要保障國人的交通安全！","其中對於道路交通安全最重要的就是「國家道路交通安全綱要計畫」其內容主要就工程、教育、監理、執法及宣導幾個面向進行改善。","針對目前路口的安全改善、路側的道路品質提升等工程面以及教育宣導、車輛安全規格及駕駛人管理的部分，也有相當作為。","建議強化道路工程改善","本席要提醒，交通改善要進行全面性的檢討，並且依照區域位置的問題不同，主要分為兩個部分1.路段的品質改善2.路口的安全改善兩種。","其中，路段的重點在於道路品質的提升，從人行道、自行車道及無障礙的連續性、平整性改善，到路邊臨停的相關設計及措施。","路口的重點在於利用設計達到安全性提升，包含轉角視線的改善及行徑動線應減少交疊，以及行人的專用時相讓人車穿行分流。","過去本席都有提出過具體的改善措施及建議，如設置停靠區、易肇事路段的改善計畫，也提醒過易肇事路段的改善要加強追蹤等等，而這些都需要更全面的綜合規劃，來進行系統性的改善。","建議檢討現行車輛等載具安全規格，建立新興載具規格","應參照歐美日韓等國，針對現行車輛載具的安全規範進行通盤檢討，強化車輛安全規範。","參照歐美日韓等國，針對新興載具如：自動駕駛車輛等新興載具建立安全規範。","數位轉型推動方向，個案計劃執行困境應加強突破","數位部長首次接受採訪就表示會將打詐、韌性及發展數位經濟作為施政目標，並表示：台灣的機會在數位經濟，一個是要做興利，讓數位產業蓬勃發展；另一個是要做防弊，防弊也就是大家所熟知的防詐騙。","依照本席了解，數位發展部截至目前已推動「服務型智慧政府2.0推動計畫」，協助各中央機關進行業務及服務辦裡數位轉型及精進，計畫案件數共34件，總經費約45億2千萬元。","在地方政府的部分，計畫案件數總共有19件，總經費約4,900萬元。此外，還有為因應部會可能有臨時需求以個案方式協助機關進行服務設計再造及數位轉型，總計2件，總經費143萬元。","目前針對未來如何推動政府數位轉型以及建立有效的回饋管道，讓轉型符合民眾需求，應加強辦理。","在目前的個案計劃中，原有的規劃是希望針對臨時性或緊急性的轉型或業務需求提供其他部會經費與協助，但目前能協助的金額卻只有一兩百萬。","這樣的經費規模其實多數部會都會有其他方式可以支應，也因此導致使用的案件量並不多（成立至今兩案），其實這樣彈性協助的策略在方向上是正確的。","但要如何兼顧經費規模能足夠支援其他部會，但也同時兼顧經費的編列使用，例如經費編列多，但如果當年沒有緊急案件需要執行，就會導致執行率低，遭到主計的糾舉，但如果經費編列少，卻又造成部會申請意願低，在執行率與能合理有效的的運用間的衝突，數位部有應有具體的改善作為。"],["主席：報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。7月9日（星期二）上午9時繼續開會，進行交通組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（18時55分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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個會期那這邊能夠有很具體的一個結果那這樣在設立的一個期程上賴總統的政見是比較有機會完成的那這是本席的一個建議不曉得院長您的看法"},{"start":127.324,"end":151.658,"text":"我們朝這個目標跟時間來努力好的謝謝那從這個一個議題那我要先提醒一下有關於今天我們這個主要的議題在最近關於這個大家應該前幾天知道在新竹的這個新岳的這個沙灘這邊發生了一個有關於高中生汽水的一個狀況那在昨天的兩個人失聯"},{"start":152.979,"end":153.019,"text":"﹚林倩綺"},{"start":174.28,"end":203.509,"text":"行政院在整個的海岸的這個安全上有沒有什麼樣一個想法規劃讓大家在整個暑假能夠安全無虞這個西邊啊海邊啊經常在這個暑假發生這樣的遺憾的事情那我想地方政府也要跟中央政府一起合作是不是有充足的人力或是明顯的告示那麼以及在現場場地的維護等等這個都需要互相的來協助跟努力的"},{"start":204.77,"end":220.084,"text":"謝謝院長您講到一個重點那本席這邊有一個建議本席看到這樣一個問題其實很重要一點就您剛才也有講到有沒有充足的人力那所以暑假快到了這個其實跟教育有很大的一個關係也就是說在我們剛才講的這個體育署"},{"start":221.846,"end":250.314,"text":"那目前的一個在海岸的這個人力是不是足夠?現在可能在這個游泳池有很多的一個救援的人力那但是在沙灘海岸那這個跟觀光署有比較大的一個關係或是交通部很大一個關係你們在其實海岸的安全還有路上的安全其實有相關的這個單位去做處理那當然跟縣市政府要一起來共同的守護那這個部分不知道交通部現在對於這個暑假目前的一個規劃"},{"start":252.126,"end":268.108,"text":"我想我們會針對這些有民眾常遊棄的地方那跟地方政府大家來再做一次安全措施或是相關的安全的這個部分的這個評估跟跟這個維護的這個進一步的措施"},{"start":269.108,"end":289.016,"text":"謝謝部長,所以我這邊特別提醒,現在暑假已經開始了,所以可能在現在就趕快先來就這個部分,就是院裡面還有跟地方政府,那是不是交通部這邊來做一個主導,針對海岸的觀光,海岸的汐水,在暑假讓大家能夠有一個安全的暑期生活,好不好?"},{"start":289.756,"end":307.922,"text":"那這點希望那個交通部能夠更積極主動的來做那本席這邊有一個提醒那本席會這樣講是因為本席其實經常都在海岸這是本席那我是經常都在海上開帆船的所以對於海域的這個狀況本席略有所知所以剛才院長所提的這個人"},{"start":309.182,"end":309.202,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":339.242,"end":339.322,"text":"﹚林倩綺"},{"start":360.054,"end":361.435,"text":"目前在動的"},{"start":375.809,"end":404.807,"text":"這應該是我們不好意思上面也是本席本席在2021年在2021年那參加了這個100公里的這個自行車的挑戰那這個是本席所騎的每一段那不知道那個院長這邊有沒有看得出來其實在陸服的部分有很嚴重的這個衝擊也就是說基本上腳踏車很多時候是沒有地方可以騎的那我們接下來看下面一個這個是2024年那本席在過年的時候"},{"start":405.307,"end":415.987,"text":"也要親自再看一下我們的這個道路那不知道院長有沒有看出問題這邊有一個騎士騎自行車的那不曉得你有沒有發現他的周遭是什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":417.857,"end":442.012,"text":"大車的環圍繞當中是的大車就圍繞他那本席在全島這樣這不只參加過這一次那個200公里的也有挑戰過那本席就發現其實自行車的這個環境很不友善不僅是在市區那尤其是在這些部落園鄉還有這個台灣的公路都是一個很大的問題那我們再來看更可怕更危險的這個"},{"start":444.275,"end":465.555,"text":"接下來所看到的這個圖這個是在花林清水段來跟東澳南澳的這個路段那這已經是04、03之前的一個狀況了那04、03之後我們知道更辛苦了那過去還有人在騎現在可能很難騎那未來不知道怎麼騎那這個可能是交通部必須要去正視的一個問題"},{"start":466.496,"end":468.137,"text":"其實我們對自行車也都非常的愛好所以非常認同這句話就臺灣其實很美麗"},{"start":490.667,"end":511.673,"text":"現在我們有幾個計畫正在進行首先就是目前北海岸跟東北角除了河濱公園的自行車道是可以從淡水一直到河濱公園這是有被保護的車道可是本席還有參加一些比賽的時候事實上它不可能在比如說觀光局的這樣相關的這個場域裡面所以目前這個計畫裡面包括要從淡水做到基隆"},{"start":516.954,"end":516.974,"text":"﹚臺二線﹚"},{"start":545.47,"end":570.848,"text":"西濱其實現在已經從桃園到新竹甚至到苗栗都已經有專用道有一些道路是沒有連起來的本席在這邊做一些提醒那現在公路局正在處理這個部分他會配合西濱的一些改善把從巴黎巴黎的這個海港海岸這邊一直到苗栗都會有一個專用道來把它串聯"},{"start":571.968,"end":595.962,"text":"本席樂見這樣子的一個規劃,那也期待在規劃的時候能夠更細緻。那這個也在這個57億裡面會來達成。那剛剛提到最嚴重的就是疏花。對對對,那這一段我想可能這個交通部要結合路政司、觀光署還有相關的這個運營所此類等等。那這些單位其實要就不同的這種用路的這個方式來做相關的規劃。"},{"start":597.003,"end":625.132,"text":"那還有我們現在在做的花東景觀景觀快速景觀道路花東景觀道路兩旁都有留相關的自行車騎乘或者是人行的空間是那這邊我要跟部長提醒的就是說自行車還有人行其實在部落這個進入部落這個部分其實也是應該做一些相關的規劃那我們先談那個安全的問題那所以呢接下來給那個部長"},{"start":625.712,"end":640.266,"text":"還有院長這邊看一下這個是這幾年自行車的死亡跟受傷的一個數據所以如果未來有這樣一個計畫那是不是院長跟部長可以讓這樣一個死亡跟受傷的人數變少我想應該朝這樣一個數字的計畫目標去進行"},{"start":644.943,"end":646.764,"text":"接下來本席要談一個概念有關於"},{"start":663.356,"end":690.16,"text":"本席其實在上個會期也有談那這個會期再重新談一下然後目前先用這樣一個計畫跟名稱來講也就是一個福爾摩沙的徒步入網那我們知道交通部目前在自行車的這個部分也就是無動力啦也做了一些規劃那但是呢在徒步的這個部分有的時候不太友善那有的時候不太完備所以本席這邊提出可不可以透過目前已有的環島一號線然後跟台灣的長步道"},{"start":690.64,"end":718.434,"text":"那部長知不知道國家綠道有哪三條?國家級綠道原來規劃是七條。目前有三條嗎?現在有三條比較受歡迎。你有走過嗎?有部分有走過。你們部分走過,那本席走過一條。整整一條待會跟您分享。其中有一條是我在台南做的。就是山海關那一條嗎?對,山海郡。那有一個是張之隙道。那北邊就是淡蘭古道。"},{"start":720.035,"end":720.095,"text":"﹚林倩綺"},{"start":739.645,"end":767.9,"text":"好那這個是安全性的問題那第二個部分是部落間各位可以看一下那這個動態的這個部分因為setting的關係不好意思請院長又再那個歪一下頭看那我們在部落常常是車子也行然後部落的老人的兵士也要跟車子一起來共用這樣子的道路那部落間的這個路道安全也請交通部這邊再重新檢視村落跟部落裡面的"},{"start":768.32,"end":768.42,"text":"﹚林倩綺"},{"start":783.637,"end":785.018,"text":"世界文化遺產的聖亞各路本席已經走過了四條,走過四次"},{"start":802.466,"end":817.483,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":817.483,"end":817.663,"text":"您講的這個7條國家綠道"},{"start":843.592,"end":845.173,"text":"我要對委員表示非常的敬佩你不僅這個文武雙全還是海陸健將"},{"start":870.029,"end":886.238,"text":"國家未來的國家級綠道除了剛剛部長講的4條以外,未來我們在台塘還有原住民古道還有吉良山脈這3條規劃中的那國發會我會請他學習委員剛剛講的那樣的精神跟規劃盡量以人安全為本的方式來做規劃。"},{"start":886.958,"end":907.699,"text":"最後一個提醒也就是其實我們走過這些道路然後不僅是水路還是道路能夠留下一些痕跡應該是我們人生很期待的一個事情所以大家可以去參考部裡面其實以前做過這個蓋章或者是每個地方跟地方的產業做一些聯動那這個部分其實是可以有更大的一個效果"},{"start":908.26,"end":908.3,"text":"﹚林倩綺"},{"start":937.63,"end":942.855,"text":"道昌市長,您的報告是關於道昌市的經濟問題。您的報告是關於道昌市的經濟問題。您的報告是關於道昌市的經濟問題。"},{"start":969.451,"end":969.472,"text":"好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154551","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154551","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e9738081b7031309b40412a25d0aa7d1a4947c19e37f8cb803828bce2618ac0fdaa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"18:07:50 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18:38:43","影片長度":"00:30:53","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T18:07:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T18:38:43+08:00","duration":1853,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":37,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（18時8分）謝謝副院長，有請我們卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["魯委員明哲：交通部李部長。"],["主席：交通部李部長備詢。"],["魯委員明哲：院長，第一次在總質詢相會。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，魯委員，謝謝你，委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：我特別看到您的經歷，其實讓我滿佩服的……"],["卓院長榮泰：感恩、感恩。"],["魯委員明哲：我們都知道網球有大滿貫，我特別有注意到你在民進黨府院黨的秘書長這些要職上面，你可以講說是府院黨大滿貫秘書長……"],["卓院長榮泰：都是學習的機會。"],["魯委員明哲：因為我覺得這是一個滿好的歷練，但是我是真的希望你不是一黨的大師兄，今天能夠把你這些能夠做秘書長、善於協調、溝通、解決問題的能力，如果帶到國政、帶到重大建設的問題解決的話，我也相信你把這經歷帶過來，你可以做一個很好的行政院院長，你有沒有信心？"],["卓院長榮泰：我願意非常地努力。"],["魯委員明哲：願意？好，首先第一個問題。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：我特別注意你6月8號在連假的第一天來到了高速公路行控中心嘛！特別來關心交通的問題，特別謝謝你。因為你談的這段話，正好是我們整個桃園鄉親，甚至是桃竹苗鄉親在交通上的痛，你那一天把它講出來了，我也特別注意到就在這兩個月，4月15號前院長陳建仁也去視察過去所謂五楊高架南延苗栗的工程，大家現在是講楊頭高速公路國1的拓寬工程，都沒關係、都一樣的東西。但我要特別講，因為實在是天天堵，應該講那一段是天天堵，實在是刻不容緩。這個部分我想院長、部長，結果你們回來討論有沒有什麼樣的一個方向？可不可能縮短？因為我們在4月15號聽到當時交通部的報告，預計是115年開工、121年完工，我們要去縮短，到底有沒有一個目標、方向以及要怎麼努力？說一下，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。那天是看到背後monitor上面的那一段路一直有車輛源源不斷塞住，也跟我們每個人經過那一段的感覺是一樣的，所以當場是希望如果我們能夠有更進一步的規劃，期程上能夠早一天做完這個工程的話，對這個路段的改善絕對有幫忙，回來之後交通部有再進行相關的評估。"],["魯委員明哲：部長，我直接說一個，真的能夠縮短一下，好不好？我看很多工程招標一、兩年了，這個跟院長好好溝通一下，不要每個工程一定標個一、兩年之後把我們再加一點，這樣的工程一再延誤，我覺得沒有意義嘛！到時候搞不好要加的錢更多，好不好？部長，你的看法如何？"],["李部長孟諺：是，我想怎麼樣核實去計算工料、核實編列預算，讓它可以順利的招標，這個我們來努力，它是今年4月就開始啟動設計，預計114年底辦理招標的階段，我們會核實編列這個預算。但是期程上整個要通車有一個最困難的段，就是在湖口，它是要做隧道段，那邊有一個隧道，因為要避開相關的那個……"],["魯委員明哲：所以能節省的時間如果不節省的話，未來還有很多意外的狀況，我當天是有聽到我們院長這樣子說，我們希望能夠順著把大家跨部會召集起來，大家拼了，你省3個月、我省5個月，大家省起來，遇到一些狀況的時候才好處理。我今天要談的是這個高架，其實說實在話，經過新竹到苗栗非常非常重要，也非常需要，這個需求剛剛大家都理解了，可是南來北往之後我們發覺在高架上面，因為過去五楊高架的主要功能是避開林口跟桃園的堵車，結果都不給你上架，那個功能就是這樣的，對不對？當然對。但是我們現在在桃竹苗的這一段拓寬，因為桃竹苗本身就是一個生活圈，桃竹苗很多的功能要整合，在行政院的計劃有很多要整合，有一條我覺得我們桃園南區現在最重要的高架出口交流道是什麼，部長知道嗎？從高架可以直接下來，不用從新屋轉到國1平面再出去，跟著原有的車流在那邊擠，你知道是哪個交流道嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：你說從五楊高架……"],["魯委員明哲：從五楊高架。"],["李部長孟諺：可以直接銜接……"],["魯委員明哲：對，未來連到苗栗也可以下來的是哪一個？你知不知道？那我來說，好不好？就是中豐交流道。我在2020年3月份開始質詢，中豐交流道那時候南向、北向都還沒有做，所以我要特別謝謝，事實上交通部也努力了、也發包了，此次針對北向，就是北邊的車、臺北的車要從中壢下，OK！我們中壢的車要從平面直接上到高架也OK，這個部分算是非常非常方便。但是當時我們本來這個規劃就是全向，南邊的連結、北邊的連結都需要，所以這部分我要先請教一下這個交流道，我看我不要再問了，目前預計是115年的年初，這樣很快喔！就是後年年初至少北邊的連結，經由你們的幫忙，在地方從高架可以直接下來的部分會有成果，那南向的部分要怎麼辦？我想跟院長再說一下，因為這是我四年半之前的板子，現在不再拿來了，我是帶著整個桃園南區，包括里長，包括議長，真的很希望中豐交流道能夠全面來做，但是你們看右邊的公文，右邊的公文寫的是行政院蘇院長的公文，它說第二期要分期，因為經費的關係，因為往苗栗的高架要擴大一點，免得一上去就堵車，所以併由現在楊頭國一拓寬工程一併辦理，我想這個部分請教部長好不好？這個部分直接給你看一下，你們給我的回答，你可以照著唸，就是下面北向工程嘛！那南向工程，你們的說法是今年會完成可行性評估、綜合規劃，然後明年會用地取得、工程設計，115年施工，有沒有辦法做到？"],["李部長孟諺：這個部分……"],["魯委員明哲：如果115年施工，正好是楊頭拓寬工程也是準備開工嘛，其實就有搭上，那這個部分可不可以……"],["李部長孟諺：這個原本的構想就是要跟楊頭一起做，就是你剛剛提南向的部分，115年要動工，就是跟著楊頭一起執行。"],["魯委員明哲：對，我知道啊！現在因為楊頭拓寬工程要動，你們不能忘了這一條南向的，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：是，會一起做。"],["魯委員明哲：再來，我特別要在這裡也拜託院長，因為事實上你們去年提了一個桃竹苗大矽谷推動方案，正好這個方案是著眼於桃竹苗，所以在這個方案裡面，頭就是桃園，然後剛好交通部提了這個方案，那在大矽谷方案交通的策略是什麼？其中一個最重要的就是楊頭拓寬，在這拓寬段要串聯桃竹苗，那個頭當然就是中豐北路交流道，要讓南邊的貨物能夠從這邊下來，不能夠全部都擠到機場交流道那邊進去，所以這個部分我就提到這裡，請院長跟部長回去瞭解在經費時程上，按照之前公文的承諾能夠多幫忙，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員提醒，剛剛有看到蘇前院長的公文，我回去我們再研究一下公文的內容，照公文的方式跟精神繼續看能不能做更有效率的運用。"],["魯委員明哲：好，因為現在一邊已經做了，南下到最後竹苗的貨要進來，不管去青埔的會展中心，現在也蓋好了，或者到桃園南區的科技工業城，或者馬上緊接到航空城物流中心，這整整都是大矽谷計畫，我覺得這個部分大投資都有了，這個交流道一定要儘快做，在這裡拜託。","另外請問一下院長，民航局會不會嚇一跳？機場捷運你有沒有坐過？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有坐過機場捷運。"],["魯委員明哲：你沒有坐過機場捷運？你都坐轎車？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為很少出國。"],["魯委員明哲：很少出國，那這比較悲情一點。","部長，你有沒有坐過機場捷運到機場？"],["李部長孟諺：應該七、八次以上。"],["魯委員明哲：有沒有坐到機場過？"],["李部長孟諺：有啊！"],["魯委員明哲：事實上，機場捷運在疫後之後復甦的非常非常快，這個部分在好幾次質詢，行政院也知道，只是正好現在團隊因為整個換了，就簡單再拿出來說一下，我要特別拜託，因為剛開始的運能設計本來是每個小時要載四千七百多人，但是因為實際上不可能擠得跟沙丁魚一樣，而且班距後面因為驗收的問題，它沒有辦法跑那麼密集，所以現在實際的運能大概只有三千五百人左右。各位包含院長、部長來看，今年113年它每小時的運量已經到了4,793人，已經是實際運能大概將近多出30%左右。如果再往上走，未來就碰到T3航廈落成，未來不管是國際旅客來或出國怎麼樣，我想這是國門最重要的交通工具，這不是地方的捷運，這個部分我覺得看到了一個未來的重大需求，我不知道院長有沒有被告知了，從3月份當時交通委員會跟前部長，當然鐵道局局長是一樣的，我們特別有到地方去做溝通，地方事實上希望面臨這種運量大幅提升，根本一倍的車都不夠，那怎麼辦？一定要買新的車，沒辦法，所以他們原本要的量可能是超過20列，後面經過我們中央、地方初步的協調，我想包括行政院，當時鄭副院長也有特別提出來，大概目前朝向10列，其中直達車、普通車總共10列，這個部分有沒有交接？院長，因為到時候錢都要跟你要，因為你知道嗎？我們事實上已經質詢了一、兩年，我就怕沒有交接，但是沒有關係，不一定要在這裡講，我們希望把這個問題提出來。部長，那你說一下好不好？你知道這個情況吧？"],["李部長孟諺：是，我大致上瞭解，當時有過相關的協議，就是資產移轉的部分跟購車的補助，希望兩個能夠是一起討論跟決定。"],["魯委員明哲：這個部分資產移轉跟購車，事實上從鄭文燦市長的時代就很擔心，他說就購車也要講清楚，現在你們說目前購車有提出一個方案，當然我認為還沒有公文還沒具體化，但我認為這個訊息要交接，不能讓我們，包括你們鐵道局、交通部重新開始，譬如20列車談到了10列，幾列直達車、幾列普通車已經有個方向了，這個不要再談，要拜託你們來幫忙，我想……"],["李部長孟諺：也跟委員報告……"],["魯委員明哲：你說。"],["李部長孟諺：機捷自從去年我們開始推TPASS之後，機捷的運量增加了大概80%，所以TPASS對機捷運能的提升其實有很大的幫助，也讓它可以轉虧為盈。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我知道你講這個就是記功一次嘛！好不好？記功一次，但是都一樣……"],["李部長孟諺：就是大家一起合作。"],["魯委員明哲：人很多啦！人超多的，不管是直達車、普通車，這是真的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，我除了去年有出國的時間之外，比較少，那機捷的問題，我想我可以再去深入的瞭解，再跟委員做報告。"],["魯委員明哲：好，事實上機捷因為當時說所謂的運量真的不是這樣啦！因為他們忘了有人提了行李，還提兩顆的，這種實在是不夠，也希望有談的方案能夠持續的談下去，但現在又遇到一個問題……"],["李部長孟諺：確實非常重要，因為它是國家的重要門面。"],["魯委員明哲：國家的門面喔！不是說桃園而已，真的是國家的門面。我要拜託兩位一個非常重要的事，我覺得大家站在這裡就是解決問題，如果所有問題都是這種輕鬆如意的，也不需要大師兄或者我們前行政院秘書長，你們兩位都是秘書長級，正好很多跨部會協調，你知道嗎？其實我們機場捷運的，尤其號誌系統，機電號誌系統可歌可泣啊！有很悲慘的一個歷史過程，我想我要講這個的原因不是講故事，而是告訴你最後發生了什麼事。","第一個，在過去大家都知道丸紅，我們早就已經蓋好，土木標都已經完成了，站都做好了，車一直不通。而且當時的政府，不管中央、地方，延了6次，宣布明年要通車就絕對沒通，延了6次，造成很多的民怨，那到底是誰惹的禍？原來都是機電號誌系統惹的禍，到底發生了什麼問題呢？因為當時丸紅商社覺得它自己能力夠，就標了這樣的機電系統，它本來應該自己做，結果它講說：「唉唷！其實我也不會做。」它就轉給了英維思公司，英國的英維思公司會做，就請它來。私下合約就做嘛！結果做到最後糟糕了，各做完之後，要有人系統整合，產生了非常大的問題，系統整合一直出問題，造成很多很多的缺點一直沒有辦法改善。","院長，你應該有聽說過這件事，因為你做過秘書長，你肯定有聽過這件事，因為這個事扯了真的非常久，即使有些缺點，106年3月2號終於就不管了，就上了、就啟動了，開始載客了，到現在為止，到底有沒有合格驗收？這個問部長好不好？部長，到底我們機捷有沒有合格驗收完成？"],["李部長孟諺：我知道當時丸紅是用價格標來承攬機場捷運的工程，所以後來工程會有一個明令，價格標確實會造成沒有辦法找到優質的廠商，其施工品質也堪慮，所以後來工程會明令要求所有的工程在一定金額以上一定要用評選的方式。"],["魯委員明哲：其實我的問題比較簡單啦，到底有沒有合格驗收？沒有！後面是減價驗收，缺失就沒辦法，你們又不能把車還給他們，這東西也不能拆了還給他們，後面是減價，當然有把它的一些價金沒入……"],["李部長孟諺：不過依照採購法，減價驗收也是合法驗收的一種方式。"],["魯委員明哲：好，合法減價驗收，我更正一下。那為什麼呢？到底差在哪裡？因為大家都知道車殼是骨骼嘛，但是真正什麼時候跑、什麼時候停，安全系統跟營運系統全部都是靠這個機電號誌系統，它是靈魂，這個靈魂弄不好，所以他們當時承諾的不管是行車速度、平均速率跟車距幾分鐘可以發一班都做不到。好吧！丸紅商社在我們車上裝的系統叫做DTG-R，就是來自英國的英維斯系統，那是舊的號誌系統，現在發生什麼事了？還沒產完啊！現在做到剩兩站就到中壢火車站了，你知道嗎？我在現場監督，外環道再兩站、再2.06公里就到中壢火車站，這不是中壢人在坐，南來北往的火車會直接串接到青埔或者要坐飛機都有另外一個管道，我覺得很不錯，所以發包啊！這兩站一樣，土木標早就做好了，最後機電標真是很坎坷啊！驗收延這麼久，機電標從103年的9月發包到108年的7月、8月、9月整整5年的時間才發包出去，又是誰的惹的禍，你知道嗎？又是號誌系統惹的禍，都是同樣一個，又是它惹的禍，為什麼？發生了什麼事呢？5年招標了15次，發生了什麼事呢？前面從臺北火車站到中壢的車外系統都是丸紅商社、英維斯的DTG-R車機跟外圍系統，所以招標怎麼辦呢？只好再找他們買，為了要符合這個部分，所以我們的車載系統就是這個DTG-R，車都不要變、一毛都不要花，只要在前面的軌道裝上相同的系統，就可以直接推進到中壢火車站，甚至臺北到中壢可以開直達車了，很簡單啦！結果標了12次都沒人來。因為2013年英維斯公司已經被併購了，2014年他們的政策改變了，所以標了12次沒人來啊！這個系統已經沒有人要做了，最後怎麼解決？到第5年的時候，當時的鐵道局副局長應該很清楚，他們沒有辦法，只好把規格開放，任何的訊號廠商都可以來，因為他們問了全世界知名的訊號廠商公司，在臺灣沒有一個可以做這種舊的，所以任何人都可以來，那怎麼辦呢？第二個系統出來了，流標了15次，弄了一個新的系統，因為英文字太饒舌了，西門子（LGMT），兩家不同血緣、不同系統、不同東西、不同運作方式，這兩個東西我簡稱新跟舊，但你跟你們講，院長比較少坐，部長有坐做過8次，但你可能沒有坐到中壢，中壢現在不錯，坐到A 21的時候還要手動切換一下，跟手排車一樣「喀嚓」換成新的系統才能夠向前行，為什麼呢？因為最後兩站的車外系統是西門子系統，這應該是全世界唯一有兩個車載系統的列車，這就是現在的情況。","現在到底我要講什麼問題，你們應該也想到了，那未來呢？現在要買車了，桃園市政府、鐵道局、大眾捷運公司滿開心的，然後因為要跟鐵道局、交通部呈報細部計畫，實際要有報價、要規範，於是當然要去詢價，但詢價詢到現在的結果是什麼？殼沒問題，好幾家都會做殼給你，但是靈魂──它的號誌系統怎麼辦呢？沒有人要啊。","院長、部長，你們看一下，他們在3月多到4月，甚至發到我們外交部英國的駐外辦事處，結果在4月的時候，德國西門子回函了，回函時說什麼？很簡單，你們自己看一下黃色的部分，它說英維斯號誌系統（DTG-R），由於第三方供貨商已經停產，增購列車搭載這個系統的解決方案對他們來說不可行，就算現在中古的湊給你，未來要維修20年，我也幹不下去。所以這是目前為止，桃園他們要買車時遇到的一個問題，這個問題比剛剛那個中壢的兩站更嚴重喔，因為裝不到舊的系統，從臺北火車站開到我們中壢，這個舊的系統都沒人跑，它這個車也沒有辦法買，所以這個根本的問題就完全沒有辦法解決。我想這個問部長，因為這個問題細一點，部長，你有沒有聽說過這個問題？講真的。"],["李部長孟諺：這這個問題我初步有瞭解，但是因為這個太技術性了，就是說能不能雙系統，因為現在行駛上有些列車是有雙系統，它到了A-21要切換成西門子的系統，但是我們舊的系統、英國系統，通常就相關的審計法規，它必須要使用13到15年才能去汰換。"],["魯委員明哲：我知道。"],["李部長孟諺：所以目前有請鐵道局……"],["魯委員明哲：所以你不清楚，我今天特別代表鐵道局做了一下簡報，透過清楚的簡報跟你報告，讓你瞭解，鐵道局回去後再補充說明。"],["李部長孟諺：就是技術上我們怎麼樣能夠……"],["魯委員明哲：不是，現在是問題怎麼解決。現在問題怎麼解決？你買了10列車放在A1站臺北火車站，你用鞭子鞭它不會動喔，因為裡面沒有裝訊號系統，沒有裝英維斯的DTG-R，它沒有這個系統。你說那我裝第二套系統，西門子的第二套系統，可以，你就跑中壢兩站，因為只有最後兩站是新的系統，你不可能嘛！可是你不買車，會變成國門的笑話，所以今天我要把這個問題提出來，不容易解決，但是要直接面對，因為當時不知道為什麼我們的運氣這麼好，這家英維斯的號誌系統，全世界的捷運只賣了兩家，一個是臺灣的機捷，第二個是英國的維多利亞線，我有聽說維多利亞線也準備其他整個他們的系統都要換了，不要到最後，我們的車開到一半，也沒有地方修！我們現在講真的，舊的車，我問過了，還有部分的備料，我自己覺得可能開個五年、六年，大概還有得修，主機板壞了，沒辦法，我們還可以修，不然拿到我們數位部去修也可以，我相信應該還是可以修好。可是你新車怎麼辦，時間這麼緊迫，你要怎麼辦？我也覺得這不是部長單獨可以去解決的。但你看，現在兵臨城下了，因為它發文給……現在這件事情最有效率的只有我們外交部，但今天沒有來，因為我們桃園捷運公司行文，鐵道局行文給英國代表處，英維斯不知道怎麼樣，天高皇帝遠，拜託幫我們去查一下。只有它當天接到函，三天之後就回函了，結果結論是說不好意思，一般商務，干我屁事啊！大概是這樣。就這樣求助無門啊。所以今天我為什麼要在這邊講？說好像都不是國家的事，拜託幫我們去問一下都不行，就說這個都沒有問題。","右手邊這個部分，部長要特別注意，6月26號，因為它已經弄了將近兩個月，沒辦法，求助無門，連做車的廠商他們都有去問，說可以賣你車，再去問一下訊號系統，因為車載系統要有鎖的位置，它也要預留這些位置，他們也問不到，因為它說停產了。所以現在的問題已經給鐵道局了，馬上交通部要做決定，因為這個事情真的不能拖。你買個車真的要到位，3年、5年不見得到得了，尤其是你現在只剩兩個選擇。院長，我想你協調過這麼多次，現在的問題點真的就只有兩個選擇，都很艱難。第一個選擇就是能不能舉全國之力找到舊的號誌系統DTG-R，而且是車載的、新的，確保未來10年、20年可以maintain都沒問題。如果能幫忙找到這個部分，那就沒問題了，就是這個新的車還是裝兩套，到了我們中壢，西門子再裝一套，兩套系統，就這樣湊合著過河。另外第二種方式，如果你真的買不到怎麼辦，因為現在都問不到，怎麼辦？院長，你要不要說一下？如果都買不到，你有沒有什麼初步的想法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我的想法是因為它現在雖然使用年限不到，但是安全的考量看有沒有特別的需求，否則就是現在如果買到舊的，未來還是問題啊！何況現在要買到舊的可能很麻煩，可能就是要全線做一個……"],["魯委員明哲：你也把問題整個講出來了，問題講出來後回去研究一下解決之道。部長呢？問題點……"],["李部長孟諺：因為這個廠商停產或是被併購，這個坦白說是屬於不可抗力的因素，等於當時在招標的時候沒有預料到使用的這個系統，後來這個廠商會不存在或是停產，所以我想這個部分我們會再跟相關的審計單位來做請示跟考量，看看有沒有辦法，因為一般來講是希望能夠用到15年的年限再更換。"],["魯委員明哲：我是覺得長痛不如短痛，有很多案子越拖可能要花的錢越多，絕對不會越少。現在的問題是這是我們國門重要的交通，真的一天也不能停，你也沒有辦法，這個車真的有這個需求，就算桃園市政府或者大眾捷運公司說不買，你還要逼他說這樣不行啊，到臺灣的旅客都不滿意，所以……"],["李部長孟諺：所以我會找國內的機電專家，大家來一起集思廣益。"],["魯委員明哲：你這個部分，第一個，舊系統能不能找到取代品，有沒有影響到專利？這是解決的第一個方案，第一個方案就是不換車，應該沒有這個方案啦！第二個方案就是提前重置嘛，就沒辦法啊，只有最新的一些系統，那你就從A1臺北火車站到現在的A21，它的車外的系統，車外的系統要不要重置成可以相容的系統？這個東西因為是一個招標的過程，我並不清楚，桃園到目前為止，其他的綠線，跟它連接的系統事實上都是用新的系統，如果說可以換，它真的可以開到八德去，不光是到火車站，但是按照採購法，我也不清楚到底可不可以換。如果可以換，第一個可以解決這個問題，第二個可以讓新北市已經提了超多次給交通部，有兩個未來的區段徵收區，人會住進來，A2a及A5a這兩個站，因為它要蓋，但沒有訊號系統啊，沒有辦法停啊，如果可以更新系統，他們一併新設站可以解決，這個部分因為我認為是行政院層級要統合的問題，是不是能拜託我們卓院長、部長還有鐵道局能夠深思這個問題，在三個月之內你總是要有一個方向，不然都來不及，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，今天的提醒非常重要，我倒寧願說我們長期來看需要一個全新的規劃比較好。"],["魯委員明哲：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝魯委員，謝謝院長。","陳瑩委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。","下一位請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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平面再出去跟著原有的車留在那邊騎,是哪個交流道你知道嗎?"},{"start":347.057,"end":348.358,"text":"中峰交流道2020年3月份開始質詢"},{"start":366.488,"end":394.713,"text":"中風交流到那時候南向北向都還沒有做。所以我要特別謝謝啦我們事實上交通部也努力了也發包了那只是針對於北向北向就是北邊的車台北車要從中壢下OK我們中壢的車要從這個平面直接上到高架也OK這個部分算是非常非常方便但是因為當時我們本來這個規劃就是全向南"},{"start":395.373,"end":419.885,"text":"南邊的連結北邊連結都需要所以這個部分我要先請教一下那這個交流道我看我不要再問這個目前預計是115年的大概年初年初就很快就明年後年年初我們至少北邊的連結你們的幫忙在地方從高價直接可以下來的部分會有成果"},{"start":420.845,"end":444.065,"text":"那我想南向的這個部分要怎麼辦?那我想請跟院長再說一下,因為這是我四年半之前的板子,現在不再拿來了。那我是帶著我們整個桃園南區,包括里長,包括議長,真的很希望我們的中峰交流道能夠全面來做,但是當時你們看到右邊的公文嗎?"},{"start":445.206,"end":460.765,"text":"右邊的公文是寫的這個行政院的公文,蘇院長的公文他說第二期分期因為經費的關係因為往苗栗的高架要擴大一點免得一上去就堵車所以要並由現在"},{"start":463.058,"end":486.593,"text":"所謂的洋投國一拓寬工程一併來辦理那我想這個部分那請教部長好不好那這個部分我直接給你看一下你們給我的回答你可以照著念好不好就是下面北向工程嘛那南向工程你們的說法是今年會完成可信性評估綜合規劃然後在明年會"},{"start":489.127,"end":493.582,"text":"用力取得工程設計115年施工有沒有辦法做到"},{"start":496.154,"end":518.317,"text":"如果你115年施工,正好是我們羊頭拓寬也是準備開工嘛,那其實就搭上啦,有搭上,那這個部分可不可以……這個原來的構想就是要跟羊頭一起做,就是你剛提的這個南向的這個部分,115年要動工嘛,他就是跟著羊頭一起來執行。"},{"start":520.038,"end":540.885,"text":"我知道,現在因為羊頭拓寬要動了,你們不能忘了這一條,南向的好不好。然後再來的部分,我要特別在這裡也拜託院長,因為事實上你們去年提了一個桃竹苗大細股推動的方案,正好這個方案是以左眼以桃竹苗,"},{"start":541.385,"end":566.372,"text":"所以在這個方案裡面頭就是桃園然後剛好在交通部提的這個方案那在大西湖方案交通的策略是什麼其中一個最重要就是羊頭拓寬那在這拓寬段要串聯桃竹苗那個頭當然就是中峰北路交流道要讓南邊的貨物能夠從這邊下來不能夠全部都擠到機場交流道那邊進去"},{"start":567.512,"end":589.56,"text":"所以我想這個部分我就提到這裡請院長跟部長回去了解在經費時程上按照之前公文的承諾能夠多幫忙好不好好謝謝委員提醒剛剛有看到書前院長的公文我回去我們再研究一下公文的內容我們照公文的方式跟精神繼續看能不能做更有效率的運用"},{"start":590.54,"end":591.2,"text":"另外請問一下院長"},{"start":619.844,"end":648.339,"text":"我們機場……欸,民航局會不會嚇一跳?機場捷運,機場捷運你有沒有坐過啊?我沒有坐過機場捷運。你沒有坐過機場捷運?哦,你都是坐轎車。因為很少出國。哦,很少出國。哇,那這比較悲情一點。那部長你有沒有坐過機場捷運啊?應該……坐到機場?應該七、八次以上。七、八次了?對。有沒有去坐到機場過?"},{"start":649.943,"end":665.553,"text":"有阿有事實上機場捷運在疫後之後復甦的非常非常快這個部分事實上在好幾次質詢我們行政院也知道只是正好現在團隊因為整個患那就簡單再拿出來說一下"},{"start":666.494,"end":685.862,"text":"那我要特別拜託因為在剛開始的社聚運能本來是每個小時要載4700多人但是因為實際上不可能擠得跟沙丁魚一樣而且他的班聚後面因為驗收的問題他沒有辦法跑那麼密集所以現在實際的運能大概只有3500人左右"},{"start":686.542,"end":709.029,"text":"那各位包括院長部長你在看啊今年113年他每小時的運量已經到了4793人已經是我們實際運能的大概將近比他多出多出30%左右那如果再往上走你看到未來會碰到T3航廈的落成未來不管是"},{"start":710.309,"end":724.643,"text":"國際旅客來或準備要出國我想這是國門最重要的交通工具這不是地方的一個捷運那這個部分我覺得看到了未來的一個重大需求那我不知道院長有沒有被告知"},{"start":726.667,"end":754.005,"text":"在我們從3月份3月份我們當時交通委員會當然是跟前部長還有鐵道局局長是一樣的那我們特別有趣到我們地方來去做一個溝通那地方至上希望面臨這種運量大幅提升根本一倍的車都不夠那怎麼辦一定要買新的車沒辦法所以他們原本要的量可能是超過20列"},{"start":757.227,"end":757.608,"text":"主席"},{"start":768.38,"end":793.399,"text":"十輛叫十列抱歉齁十列那其中這個普通車跟那個抱歉一邊是直達車齁直達車普通車總共十列那這個部分有沒有交接啊院長因為這個到時候錢都要跟你要欸因為你知道嗎我們市長已經質詢了一兩年那我就怕沒有交接但是沒有關係不一定要在這裡講啦齁我們希望把這個問題提出來齁那"},{"start":796.121,"end":811.425,"text":"部長,那你說一下好不好,你知道這個情況吧?是,我大致上了解,就是當時有過相關的協議,就是資產移轉的部分跟這個購車的補助,希望兩個能夠是一起討論跟決定。"},{"start":814.037,"end":841.896,"text":"這個部分資產移轉跟購車事實上從鄭文燦市長的時代就很擔心嘛他說那你就購車也要講清楚現在你們說目前購車你們有提出一個方案當然我認為還沒有公文還沒具體化但我認為這個訊息要交接不能讓我們包括你們鐵道局交通部重新開始比如說二十列車談到了十列幾列直達車幾列普通車已經有個方向了"},{"start":842.496,"end":860.361,"text":"這個不要再談,要拜託你們來幫忙。那我想...那你跟委員報告。你說。機捷,自從去年我們開始推TPAS之後,機捷的運量增加了大概80%,所以TPAS對機捷的運能的提升其實有很大的幫助,也讓他可以轉虧為盈。"},{"start":861.997,"end":884.133,"text":"好我知道你講這個是就技工一次嘛好不好技工一次但是都一樣就是人很多啦人超多的不管是直搭車普通車這是真的啦好謝謝委員我除了去年有出國的時間之外比較少那季節的問題我想我們我可以再去深入的了解再跟委員做報告好事實上季節因為當時的所謂的運量是真的"},{"start":884.853,"end":899.185,"text":"不是這樣因為他忘了有人提了行李還提兩顆的這種實在是不夠那也希望有談的方案能夠持續的談下去但現在又遇到一個問題確實非常重要因為它是國家的重要門國家的門面"},{"start":903.508,"end":920.239,"text":"拜託兩位有一個非常重要的事,我覺得大家站在這裡就是解決問題,如果所有問題都是這種輕鬆如意的,也不需要大師兄或者我們前行政院秘書長,你們兩位都是秘書長級的,正好很多跨部會協調,你知道嗎,其實我們機場捷運的尤其"},{"start":924.915,"end":925.175,"text":"主席"},{"start":944.232,"end":964.778,"text":"我們早就已經蓋好,土木標都已經完成了,站都做好了,車一直不通。而且當時的一個政府,不管中央地方,言了六次,宣布明年要通車就絕對沒通,言了六次。那造成很多的一個民怨。那到底是誰惹的禍?原來都是機電耗製系統惹的禍。到底發生了什麼問題呢?因為當時玩紅商社"},{"start":967.239,"end":985.308,"text":"他覺得他自己能力夠就標了這樣的一個基電系統他本來應該自己做結果他講說我其實我也不會做他就轉給了英維斯公司英國的英維斯公司他會做就請他來那就實下合約就做嘛結果做到最後勒糟糕了"},{"start":986.581,"end":997.346,"text":"各做完之後要跟系統整合產生了非常大的問題系統整合一直出問題造成很多很多缺點一直沒有辦法改善"},{"start":998.79,"end":1021.261,"text":"院長你應該有聽說過這件事因為你做過秘書長你肯定有聽過這件事因為這個是扯的真的非常久即使106年3月2號終於就有些缺點不管了就上了就啟動了開始賽課了到現在為止到底有沒有合格驗收這個問部長好不好部長到底我們集結有沒有合格驗收完成"},{"start":1023.461,"end":1049.838,"text":"我知道當時是玩紅他是用這個用這個價格標來承攬這個機場捷運的工程所以後來工程會有一個明令就是價格標確實是會造成第一個沒有辦法找到一個優質的廠商那施工品質也堪慮所以所以後來工程會有明令要求所有的工程一定價格一定的金額以上一定要用評選"},{"start":1050.959,"end":1073.42,"text":"好了,其實我問題比較簡單啦,到底有沒有合格驗收,沒有啦,後面是減價驗收啦,缺失就沒辦法,沒辦法,你又不能把車還給他,這東西也不能還給他,後面是減價,當然有把它的一些的價金,把它沒入,那你應該知道吧。不過一場合法,減價驗收也是合法驗收的一種方式。合法減價驗收,好不好,跟證一下。"},{"start":1074.361,"end":1101.55,"text":"那為什麼呢?到底差在哪裡?為什麼?因為他到最後機電要做到大家都知道車殼這是骨骼嘛但是真正什麼時候跑什麼時候停安全系統跟營運系統全部都是靠這個機電耗資系統他是靈魂他這個靈魂弄不好所以他當時承諾的不管是行車的速度平均速率跟車距啊幾分鐘可以發一班都做不到好吧那這一套系統"},{"start":1104.403,"end":1129.077,"text":"玩紅商社在我們車上裝的血源系統叫做DTGR就是英維斯來自英國血源的一個系統叫做舊的訊號系統那現在發生什麼事呢還沒產完啊那現在做到了再剩兩站就到中壢火轍你知道嗎那因為我在現場監督啊就在外環道"},{"start":1129.918,"end":1146.17,"text":"在兩站2.06公里就到中壢火車站這不是中壢人在做南來北往的火車未來直接串接到我們的不管是清普或者到坐飛機都有另外一個管道我覺得很不錯嘛所以發包啊"},{"start":1147.97,"end":1166.751,"text":"這兩站一樣土木包早就做好了。最後啊積電標真是很坎坷啊驗收延這麼久就積電標從103年的9月發包到108年的7月8月9月整整5年的時間才發包出去。又是誰惹的禍你知道嗎?"},{"start":1167.796,"end":1195.893,"text":"又是耗資系統惹的禍都同樣一個人同樣又是他惹的禍為什麼這時候發生什麼事呢招標了15次5年發生什麼事呢發生了因為招標前面從臺北火車站到中壢外面的車外的系統都是玩紅商社的英維斯的DTGR的車機跟外圍的系統所以我要拜託再招標怎麼辦呢"},{"start":1196.934,"end":1197.034,"text":"因為2013年"},{"start":1221.82,"end":1232.825,"text":"因為是公司已經被併購了2014年他們的政策就改變了所以標了12次沒人來啊就這個系統已經沒有人要做了所以又怎麼解決啊"},{"start":1233.792,"end":1261.534,"text":"最後到第五年的時候這個鐵道局應該很清楚當時副局長他沒有辦法只要開放把規格開放任何的訊號廠商都可以來任何訊號廠商都可以來因為他問了全世界知名的訊號廠商公司在臺灣沒有一個可以做這種救的所以好吧任何人都可以來那怎麼辦呢所以所以看一下第二個系統出來了"},{"start":1264.412,"end":1281.716,"text":"劉彪15次弄了一個新的系統因為英文字太老舌LGMT西門子兩家不同學員不同系統不同東西不同運作的方式兩個東西我簡稱新跟舊那我跟你講"},{"start":1283.956,"end":1307.819,"text":"因為院長比較少做部長有做過八次那你可能沒有做到總領總領現在不錯總領做到A21的時候還要手動切換一下跟手排車一樣喀喀換成新的系統才能夠向前吐為什麼呢因為車友兩站的車外的系統是西門子的系統那這是全世界唯一應該唯一"},{"start":1309.81,"end":1330.602,"text":"一個車有車載兩個系統這就是現在一個情況好那我現在到底我要講什麼問題你們應該也想到那未來呢現在要買車了桃園市政府、捷工局、大東捷運公司蠻開心的然後因為要跟鐵道局、交通部要呈報細部計劃要實際要有報價要規範那當然去尋價那尋價尋到現在的結果是什麼"},{"start":1336.752,"end":1336.952,"text":"他回韓了"},{"start":1360.984,"end":1388.096,"text":"回憨說什麼就簡單你自己看一下啦黃色部分他說因為4號式系統啊DTGR由於第三方供貨已停產了好不好第三個如果真列的真夠列車搭載這個系統的解決方案對他們來說不可行就算現在中古的湊給你未來要維修20年我也幹不下去所以這是目前為止"},{"start":1389.076,"end":1413.147,"text":"我們在桃園他們要買車遇到了一個問題就是這個問題比剛剛那個中壢的兩站更嚴重因為你裝不到舊的系統從台北火車站開到我們中壢這個舊的系統都沒人跑他這個車也沒有辦法買所以這個根本的問題就完全沒有辦法解決我想這個問部長因為這個問題細一點部長你有沒有聽說過到這個問題"},{"start":1419.105,"end":1437.326,"text":"講真的這個問題我初步有了解但是還因為這個太技術性就是說能不能雙系統因為現在有點是在形式上是有有一些列車是有雙系統他到了A21他要切換成西門子的系統"},{"start":1438.217,"end":1440.878,"text":"所以你不清楚我今天特別代表鐵道局我做簡報"},{"start":1456.464,"end":1484.994,"text":"最清楚的簡報給你報告讓你了解。鐵道局回去再補充說明。不是現在是問題怎麼解決?現在問題怎麼解決?你買了實列車放在A站台北火站你用鞭子鞭它不會動喔?因為裡面沒有裝訊號系統。沒有裝英維斯的DTGR它沒有這個系統。那你說我裝第二套系統西門澤第二套系統可以。你就跑中壢兩站因為只有最後兩站是新的系統。"},{"start":1485.774,"end":1512.276,"text":"你不可能嘛可是你不買車會變成國門的笑話所以今天我要把這個問題不容易解決但是要直接面對因為當時不知道為什麼我們運氣這麼好這一家英維斯的訊號耗資系統全世界的捷運只賣了兩家一個是台灣的這個季節第二個是英國的維羅利亞縣"},{"start":1513.557,"end":1517.902,"text":"我有聽說維羅里亞縣他也準備其他整合他們系統都要換"},{"start":1518.985,"end":1543.538,"text":"不要到最後我們的車開到一半也沒有地方修我們現在講真的舊的舊的車我問過了還有部分的備料我自己覺得可能開個五年五年六年大概還有的修主機板壞了沒辦法我們還可以修不然拿到我們數位部去修也可以我相信應該還是可以修好可是你新車怎麼辦時間這麼緊迫你要怎麼辦"},{"start":1546.96,"end":1574.647,"text":"所以我想這個因為我也覺得這不是部長單獨可以去這個解決的好那你看喔兵臨城下囉因為他發文給現在這件事情最有效率的只有我們外交部今天沒有來因為就是我們桃園捷運公司行文解公局行文給這個英國代表出來因為英為斯不知道怎麼樣天罡皇帝委員拜託幫我們去查一下只有他當天"},{"start":1576.492,"end":1603.115,"text":"這個接到函三天之後就回函了就結論是說不好意思一般商務法干我屁事大概是這樣就這樣求助無門所以今天我們為什麼在那邊講說好像都不是國家的事拜託幫我們去問一下都不行就是說這個都沒問題那右手邊我們這個部長要特別注意6月26號6月26號因為他們已經弄了將近兩個月沒辦法求助無門"},{"start":1604.171,"end":1631.722,"text":"連坐車的廠商他們都去問我可以賣你車那我再問我去問一下信號系統因為車載系統要鎖的位置他也要預留這些位置他們也問不到他說停產了所以這個問題現在的問題已經給鐵道局了馬上交通部你要做決定因為這個事情真的不能拖你要買個車真的到位三年五年不見得到得了尤其是你現在只剩兩個選擇"},{"start":1634.056,"end":1648.307,"text":"院長我想你協調過這麼多次現在問題點真的就只有兩個選擇都很艱難第一個選擇就是能不能集全國之力找到舊的耗資系統DTGR"},{"start":1650.268,"end":1650.428,"text":"﹚主席"},{"start":1670.155,"end":1692.558,"text":"另外第二種方式呢?如果你真的買不到怎麼辦?因為現在都問不到怎麼辦?院長你要不要說一下?如果都買不到,你有沒有什麼初步的想法?我的想法是因為他現在雖然使用零線不到啦,但是安全的考量看有沒有特別的需求,否則就是現在如果買到舊的未來還是問題。況現在要買到舊的可能很麻煩。"},{"start":1693.541,"end":1698.182,"text":"另外就是說這個廠商停產或是被購併、被併購這個坦白說是屬於不可抗力的因素。因為當時在招標的時候沒有預料到使用的這個系統後來這個廠商會已經不存在或是停產。"},{"start":1719.506,"end":1729.034,"text":"所以我想這個部分我們會再跟相關的審計單位來做請示跟考量有沒有辦法因為一般來講是希望能夠用15年的年限"},{"start":1730.134,"end":1758.262,"text":"我是覺得長痛不如短痛有很多案子越拖可能要花的錢越多絕對不會越少那現在這個問題問題是我們國門重要的交通真的一天也不能停你也沒有辦法這個車真的有這個需求就算臺灣市政府或者大宗捷運公司說不買你還要逼他你這樣不行啊到臺灣的旅客都不滿意所以我們會找國內的機電專家大家來一起及時廣譯這個部分第一個舊系統能不能找到或者取代品有沒有影響到專利這解決的第一個方案"},{"start":1759.022,"end":1778.289,"text":"第二個方案,那個方案就是不換車,應該沒有這個方案,第二個方案就是提前重置嘛,那就沒辦法,那就只有最新的一些系統,那就從這個A1台北火車站到現在的A21,它的車外的系統,車外的系統,"},{"start":1779.431,"end":1804.312,"text":"要不要重置成可以相容的系統那我也這個東西因為是一個招標的過程我並不清楚因為桃園目前為止其他的綠線跟他連結的系統他事實上都是用新的系統如果說可以換他真的可以開到八德去還是不光是到火車站但是按照採購法我也不清楚到底可不可以換那如果可以換第一個可以做解決這個問題"},{"start":1805.473,"end":1819.828,"text":"第二個可以讓新北市已經提了超多次給交通部他有兩個未來的區段徵收區人會住進來A2A、A5A這個站因為他要蓋啊"},{"start":1820.709,"end":1822.83,"text":"謝謝委員,今天的提醒非常重要。我倒寧願說我們常"},{"start":1852.995,"end":1853.016,"text":"報告。"}]}},{"id":"154550","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154550","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e979c7c5c595e35dc5e412a25d0aa7d1a4947c19e37f8cb80382d6590a054ec0c545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"17:51:57 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TPU等等的台積電大概就有做了90幾趴全世界的90幾趴"},{"start":92.804,"end":116.12,"text":"總體電腦的面板全世界臺灣就做了八十幾趴,所以這個在AI方面臺灣的條件可以算是世界上最好的。我們的現在的海嵐站,部長可以看一下,院長不知道能不能看得到。我們的海嵐站事實上現在就是分居各地,這個就像小竹那要買頭,它那是給我小買頭。"},{"start":120.148,"end":144.418,"text":"但是你如果沒有一個大的港口容納各個大船或者是各式各樣的船這樣子一個格局可能不夠所以台灣需要有個數位港口我們高雄是海港是空港如果高雄可以再加上數位港我們用現有的條件來把所有的海欄站把他所有的全世界的資訊集中"},{"start":146.209,"end":172.897,"text":"所以呢我是希望說我們數位部裡面也有韌性發展師要如何增加我們全臺灣的數位的韌性要如何讓我們臺灣變成世界的AI的首都那這個地方事實上高雄是一個相當適當的地方現在台積電進駐高雄黃仁勳回答跟鴻海進駐高雄"},{"start":173.681,"end":199.137,"text":"那我高雄有很多很好的條件所以我們來創造一個數位港口部長這個有沒有信心那個報告委員我覺得這個您的idea很好但高雄剛剛講就是除了我們剛剛講有我再跟部長報告一下就是說我們高雄事實上在這個高雄港附近事實上我們找一個海嵐站那海嵐站上來之後呢"},{"start":199.881,"end":223.887,"text":"其實所有的就像飛機場跟海港一樣他船進進出出飛機進進出出其實還不夠有商業的性質所以他除了海欄站之外呢他希望再做一個交流中心就類似樞紐中心那全世界樞紐中心也在亞洲現在是香港跟新加坡比較強但是香港很快就會沒落新加坡要竄起"},{"start":225.162,"end":249.991,"text":"﹚臺灣﹚"},{"start":250.179,"end":251.8,"text":"拜託我們台灣幫他行銷連接到世界。"},{"start":278.388,"end":278.448,"text":"李部長請備詢"},{"start":311.145,"end":331.605,"text":"部長好,剛才講到數位港,事實上亞洲新灣區在這幾年來進步很多,港公司也成立旅運中心,旅運中心現在全世界的國際郵輪,臺灣國際郵輪在什麼時候最興盛,不知道部長知不知道?其實我們郵輪做得最好的就在疫情那幾年,"},{"start":332.763,"end":352.922,"text":"為什麼疫情那幾年會做最好?因為我們一般的旅遊是歐邦的,坐郵輪歐邦的會比英邦的多。但是那幾年因為是疫情所以不能出去。所以那時候有很多我們的跳島旅遊。那我也曾經提過就是以郵輪的跳島旅遊台澎金馬,這是一個很好的選擇。"},{"start":353.953,"end":363.839,"text":"台灣人很多人沒有到過金馬很多人沒有到過馬祖那你如果台風金馬可以用一個郵輪來一個跳島旅遊的話事實上我們本身就有國內的市場"},{"start":365.215,"end":390.437,"text":"另外就是說你看基隆港跟高雄港的出入事實上差很多。你看那個土也有就是從基隆出發的到那霸到日本長崎等等的。然後從高雄出發有到宮古島那霸等等。那這些都是國際旅遊的動線。那我希望說就是交通部跟港澳公司跟航港局可以重視一下這個郵輪的旅遊。我們看下一張。"},{"start":391.585,"end":415.508,"text":"現在就是迪士尼他冒險後以新加坡當作母港規劃4到7天的亞洲旅遊事實上類似這樣子的概念之前我們有高雄跟香港雙母港不知道部長知不知道現在又停了因為香港現在其實他就是會decade所以我們對香港當然就是說我們可以考慮就是高雄跟新加坡定為新的雙母港"},{"start":416.496,"end":417.156,"text":"另外還有一個好玩卡﹖"},{"start":441.981,"end":470.438,"text":"部長可能沒有玩過好玩卡沒有買過,院長可能也沒有買過好玩卡院長可能也不知道什麼叫好玩卡在日本大阪實際上他一張好玩卡兩天的行程可以玩了四五十個景點只花不到一千塊台幣所以年輕人是這麼玩的年輕人他坐飛機到日本花了差不多一萬多塊兩萬塊的旅費住宿費一天兩千,玩個四天"},{"start":471.832,"end":477.506,"text":"四千塊買個好玩卡買個兩次他就可以花兩萬塊他就可以在日本玩得很高興"},{"start":478.772,"end":507.879,"text":"台灣這個好玩卡,觀光局、觀光署有在做,但是做得還不夠。我們高雄市政府現在是算是做得最好的,但是也還不夠。我們希望說,它除了交通的連結之外,還能夠連結各個不同的景點,把它串聯成好玩卡,這樣子才能夠推動觀光。我想台灣未來,其實就是兩個大的概念,高科技產業國跟觀光文化國。那包括我們高雄也一樣,我們高雄除了AI手資之外,我這個Tech高雄是有它的意義的。"},{"start":508.53,"end":528.426,"text":"Tech不只是科技的Tech,T是Technology,E可以是Economy,C是Charming,H是Happy,叫做科技、經濟、魅力、華氣。科技產業國、科技城市帶動城市經濟的發展、國家經濟的發展。魅力當然是有魅力何剩那麼快要來。"},{"start":529.387,"end":551.702,"text":"所以其實就是包括觀光經濟、商圈經濟等等的這些庶民經濟可以藉由魅力跟觀光來推動經濟的成長那也是讓高科技人才跟一般的人民都有工作可以做所以科技、經濟、魅力、華麗我想這個方向那尤其是交通部觀光是你們最重要的工作所以郵輪這個希望說能夠再規劃"},{"start":554.364,"end":556.745,"text":"台灣PASS的重點是交通的連結,但是台灣PASS沒有景點的連結。"},{"start":578.354,"end":580.615,"text":"徐議員提到的高鐵藍眼,其實我一直覺得從左營直接連接到屏東有點痛。"},{"start":603.803,"end":620.356,"text":"以前在毛澤國當交通部長、吳篤立當高雄市長的時候就是眼光不夠,說錢沒夠,所以沒辦法黏到高雄,沒辦法黏到紅山。台北高鐵有三個核心,台北車站、板橋車站、南港車站,高雄只有一個核心。"},{"start":621.425,"end":635.663,"text":"左營車站。事實上你以50年後來思考整個高雄的發展可能會偏重一方。那南高雄的發展可能會受到阻礙。尤其現在亞洲新灣區其實陳局市長任內把亞洲新灣區做得很漂亮。"},{"start":636.711,"end":662.423,"text":"陳其邁市長任內我們再次亞洲氣溫區的提升還有包括所有的高科技產業的進駐為了這裡是個重鎮如果有高鐵來事實上會更好所以我也希望說交通部可以好好的考慮一下就是高鐵三個核心在我們南台灣在我們高雄也可能有高雄坐營高雄跟鳳山三個核心也希望說部長可以做一下思考"},{"start":663.884,"end":667.661,"text":"另外高鐵、台鐵、輕軌這三個都是交通動脈"},{"start":668.755,"end":695.337,"text":"那當然就是親國也謝謝交通部跟行政院很幫忙。我們這一陣子齊邁市長一直在喊事先啟發。包括剛剛徐委員提到可不可以接到屏東。那我們岡山路竹這一站岡市營運賴總統也有來。希望將來有機會接到台南。這個都是一個思考的點。那包括我們的捷運直線也希望交通部可以盡快思考。包括整個高雄的交通動脈通通把它思考好。"},{"start":696.087,"end":720.837,"text":"另外一個就是我們的鐵路地下化跟那個立體化之外就是說在台鐵車站之前我跟那個劉思煌委員還有李博裕當時還是議員的時候我們都有去開過會也就是說除了高鐵之外攔指擺木打是一個很大的困擾我也知道交通部現在叫做評估也就是說交通部除了攔指擺木打這邊的整體評估之外台積電那個地方可以設一個台鐵站"},{"start":722.79,"end":742.064,"text":"因為你看這個圖,這個從捷運,你將來如果說沒有台鐵站到台積電的,未來到了捷運再轉站一樣會非常的擁擠。所以你在那個台鐵這裡,就是那個梅花國道旁邊那一條是鐵道,鐵道旁邊那個是男子產業園區,那邊是台積電,那邊做一個台鐵站,將來可能從"},{"start":743.592,"end":743.852,"text":"另外停車問題我現在"},{"start":768.506,"end":787.433,"text":"這個其實,停全國的前瞻計畫已經用完了,這260億已經用完了。但是停車問題事實上,它會有關於行人友善空間的思考,它還會建立有些違規停車的思考。那這個停車場的辟建是非常的重要,全國很多重要的城市都有這個需要。"},{"start":787.853,"end":814.263,"text":"那我知道交通部現在已經沒錢了是不是請行政院也可以盡量在這一部分再規劃一點經費讓全國高雄市包括我們鳳山我鳳山車站事實上車站蓋好了將來有正式營運的時候可能不夠所以呢我們也有很多我們鳳山車站吳甲國宅吳甲龍城宮等等的有很多地方這只是一個例子我想整個全國有很多這樣子重要的點都需要再規劃停車的空間這個希望說可以再規劃"},{"start":815.828,"end":816.249,"text":"高雄機場的二樓是辦公室。"},{"start":828.922,"end":855.704,"text":"我們高雄機場沒有那種迎賓的或者是十一住行的一個好的場域的概念就純粹只是交通那其他這部分必須要一起規劃所以我們希望說機場那包括現在高雄機場的改建這個其實速度太慢了你可以看清邁清邁他明年動工2028啟用我們現在高雄機場穿著衣服改衣服半班施工要16年"},{"start":857.053,"end":871.176,"text":"這時間真的是太長希望交通部可以做一下規劃能夠盡快或者是說我們有城市機場跟郊區機場的概念這個我們可能再思考好最後拜託院長是不是可以給我們一個統一的回答統一是說機場的問題"},{"start":879.797,"end":905.499,"text":"首先從第一個那個數位港口很重要剛剛黃部長已經說過了他已經有這樣的想法我們看看他細部的規劃進程如何那那個高鐵高鐵現在我們剛剛提過他現在是朝向這個左營的方案在進行但是他要跟地方做做的溝通有機會讓我們高雄三核心"},{"start":908.005,"end":909.886,"text":"香港機場的改善跟停車空間這個?"},{"start":932.635,"end":947.875,"text":"我剛剛看到那個照片確實他應該有一個比較迎賓的大樓的方式。跟院長報告細節我都會跟部長保持聯絡讓部長知道陪著我一起追蹤啦。我們一起努力啦謝謝。好謝謝院長。"}]}},{"id":"154549","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154549","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e97f5791808e959d239412a25d0aa7d1a496034d888474fb5f9016580a9b45654d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"17:35:28 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17:51:45","影片長度":"00:16:17","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T17:35:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T17:51:45+08:00","duration":977,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":649,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（17時35分）謝謝主席，有請我們卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：院長午安，辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["徐委員富癸：院長，我來自我們國境之南的屏東，目前在我們所有的區域立委裡面，我的選區是最遠，幅員也是最遼闊的，所以針對我們屏東的交通問題，今天要特別請部長跟院長來幫忙。爭取交通平權，一向是我們屏東人的一個心願，未來更是我們在發展經濟，跟所謂達到我們賴總統區域均衡發展，一個很重要的關鍵，所以今天希望院長能夠幫屏東人圓夢，能夠幫我們來落實交通平權的這個議題。","我首先要請教院長關於我們高鐵的部分，2019年我們蘇貞昌前院長正式宣布高鐵南延屏東，在陳建仁前院長的任內，我們陸陸續續完成的高鐵屏東車站的一個都市計畫，以及特定區道路的一些規劃。但是到目前為止，我們知道交通部針對所謂南延屏東的路線，有幾條路廊在規劃當中，到底這個路廊目前的規劃情形是怎麼樣？然後何時？能不能如預期講的，2029年能夠完成通車？請院長答復。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。高鐵南北的延伸，是現在行政院國家重要的建設之一，其中南部的延伸到屏東，從過去到現在，委員剛才提到有幾條的路廊，包括最北邊的到最南邊的，最近原則上的決定會採取高屏二快，就是從左營這個方案來做未來路線的規劃。但是還是要再跟地方多多的溝通，包括縣政府跟各級民意代表跟地方的人士溝通，怎麼樣能夠達到最高的效益，這個方案的走向到現在會不會有工程上的困難、有沒有辦法克服它，原則上是走這個路線在規劃。"],["徐委員富癸：院長，因為我有跟幾位高雄市的委員在討論這個議題，包含跟我們部長也有一直在討論。因為現在路廊的決定會影響到高屏兩個縣市，有一些問題存在，那未來我們怎麼去克服這些問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：細節部長再答復，我們曾經討論過了。"],["李部長孟諺：之前有宣布高屏二快的路廊，目前還有一些技術上的問題正在評估跟要設法去克服，譬如包括轉轍的點、月臺的使用率等等。所以後續一個最佳的方案出來之後，我們還會啟動包括跟縣市首長，還有地方的委員、民意，做相關的對話跟溝通。"],["徐委員富癸：院長，我想是這樣子，因為目前我們高鐵的機廠設在燕巢，我們新左營是有一個轉運的功能存在，但是因為我們會被高鐵這兩個點包含車體、車站，跟所謂轉運點的一個限制，去侷限了所謂對屏東最有利的路線的方案。","有沒有考慮從燕巢，未來我們既然有說要延伸到潮州，有沒有可能把機廠就整個移到我們的屏東，然後從左營就開闢一條新的路線，是不是有做這樣一個規劃？"],["卓院長榮泰：燕巢方案也曾經是在構想的方案當中，經過多次的考慮跟討論，現在原則上是比較朝剛剛說的左營方案──高屏二快的方式。燕巢比較偏北邊，沒有進到比較密集的地方，所以這個考量在過去曾經討論過。"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，燕巢在工程技術上有困難，因為那一帶的橋梁是簡支梁，所以它沒有辦法承受側向力，如果要從燕巢那邊，要從既有的主線插一條支線，既有橋梁的那一段全部要打掉重做；第二個，如果從燕巢岔出來到屏東，高雄會變成支線，以後屏東會變成主線，假設未來延伸屏東又延伸到潮州臺東之後，比如說高雄人要往臺東，要先搭去臺南，再從臺南到屏東，整個程序上會有很大的困擾跟執行上的問題。"],["徐委員富癸：這裡還是要特別拜託院長，我記得我第一次到立法院總質詢就是針對高鐵議題來提出，當時陳前院長跟王前部長都有允諾在2029年完成通車目標，可是到目前為止連路廊都還沒有確定，我們實在是很痛苦，尤其像我每天早上要來立法院開會，我必須5點多出門，搭第一班的高鐵，有很多鄉親，包含公務同仁都問我：立委，到底高鐵何時會來啊？大家對高鐵南延真的是最深的期待，請部長跟院長盡快定案，看在部長任內能不能有機會動工，這我們一起來努力好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：好。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝，第二個問題就是屏南快速道路，屏南快速道路是恆春半島鄉親們說的救命道路，4月9號陳前院長已經正式宣布可行性評估通過，5月9號我也在立法院正式開了一個協調會，把交通部的相關單位找來，希望能夠加快時程，之前協調進度是說7月要進行綜合規劃的發包，跟著環評一起做，請教部長，目前進度是不是照這樣在進行當中？"],["李部長孟諺：是，目前正在辦理綜規跟環評，預計今年11月會提出第一份綜規期初報告跟環評，後面就會進行環評的一些程序，路廊也都已經確定。我想高屏快速道路特別的價值就是，如果將來南迴優化改善，南迴未來變成快速道路，高屏快速道路就會是環島快速道路中最重要且關鍵的一環，可以聯絡臺東跟屏東，接到國道三……"],["徐委員富癸：當時規劃是在126年才能夠完工，後來我們和陳前院長協調時，陳前院長也說能夠加快時程，但最近怎麼聽到要等到120年才可以動工，有這個訊息嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：我們目前的預估是……因為綜規要核定之前一定要通過二階環評，而二階環評一般都要2年半左右的時間，至少要有一年四季的環境調查，新的快速道路都要做二階環評，目前預估大概要在119年之後動工，在126年左右完工。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，這時間未免也拖太久了，現在才113年而已，還要花6年時間……"],["李部長孟諺：我們來設法看怎麼樣把綜規跟環評縮短……"],["徐委員富癸：是不是可以建議分段施工，尤其楓港到枋寮這段……"],["李部長孟諺：優先……"],["徐委員富癸：南迴過來最壅塞，因為臺東的車流過來嘛……"],["李部長孟諺：潮州到枋寮、枋山路段……"],["徐委員富癸：對，這段是最壅塞的路段，那這段是不是可以考慮優先施工，然後分段處理？"],["李部長孟諺：好。"],["徐委員富癸：是不是可以請工務局來做這樣的規劃？"],["李部長孟諺：綜規跟環評我們設法看怎麼樣……"],["徐委員富癸：可以同步進行啊！"],["李部長孟諺：讓第一期優先來施作。"],["徐委員富癸：好，第三個部分再請教院長，高捷到屏東也是很多鄉親的期待，高捷紅線南延到屏東東港跟林邊，預計我們9月底可以將可行性評估送到中央來核定，但是因為前一陣子有遇到所謂高架化跟地下化的一個討論，請教院長跟部長，目前最新的進度是到哪裡？"],["李部長孟諺：最近縣府就會……我記得它已經把可行性的規劃送到交通部，我們在7月份會召開會議，現在採的方案就是高架。"],["徐委員富癸：高雄這一頭也是高架嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：高雄從小港延伸到林園，小港延伸林園是地下，可是到了林園最後這一段是上來的，高雄本身的紅線就是高架，所以我們延伸屏東也是用高架來接，而且是在同一個站來轉乘。"],["徐委員富癸：因為我們鄉親之前還是一直期待所謂的一車到底這個部分，當然也要考慮到我們運量的部分。"],["李部長孟諺：對。"],["徐委員富癸：目前我們有沒有做進一步的調整，還是……"],["李部長孟諺：現在都還是高架接高架，就是屏東到林園這邊是高架，跟林園這邊紅線的高架銜接，但是我們是用輕軌的運量，因為事實上這種……"],["徐委員富癸：這是同一個月台再換車過來而已？"],["李部長孟諺：同一個月台換車就可以了。"],["徐委員富癸：就照原本的……"],["李部長孟諺：不用上下月臺、不用換月台，目前實際的運量估算起來，真的只能是用輕軌，是比較經濟也比較長遠，這種案例其實在北部的捷運也很多，譬如說三鶯線，它是到了土城最後的頂埔站，然後才會銜接板南線，所以高運量接輕軌或是接中運量，有一個在同一個站的轉乘，這種案例非常多。"],["徐委員富癸：目前還是以119年為通車的目標嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：時間的部分可能就是，目前如果最近能夠核定可行性，後續就是還有環評等等這個階段，我們來設法怎麼樣來加速。"],["徐委員富癸：這裡還是要再拜託一下院長，如果這一條核定之後，因為屏東整個對外的聯外交通，我們還有另外規劃了所謂的左營屏東線、大寮屏東線，還有大寮到潮州這三條路線，是不是可以請院長跟部長也幫忙，讓我們能再進行其他路線的規劃，我想我們都非常需要這樣的大眾運輸工具。"],["李部長孟諺：是的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，好。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，剛剛我們有幾位委員也特別提到所謂的鐵路高架化的部分，最早的時候，我在4月份辦了交通委員會的考察，目前我們有針對枋寮車站大平台，因為這個大平台有兩個平交道，都要等很久的時間，而且會造成淹水的問題，這個部分鐵道局有進行規劃，但是我們認為不夠，屏東縣應該要走全線高架化，因為畢竟我們還有好幾個平交道，都曾經有很多肇事紀錄，而且鄉親等待車子的時間也非常非常的久，尤其我們現在的臺鐵，機廠設在我們的潮州，我們已經有點類似捷運化的概念，但問題是因為發車量多，所以造成鄉親在平交道等待的時間也很長，我想這也是都市縫合一個很重要的契機，這部分可不可以請院長也來支持我們屏東縣的鐵路全線高架化？"],["李部長孟諺：這個部分我可能還要再進一步瞭解，不過，確實潮州發車會造成那一帶平交道柵欄起降頻繁、交通上的不便，我是不是再進一步瞭解，然後再跟委員做報告？"],["徐委員富癸：是，也發生了很多起交通事故，確實很多年紀大的老人家經過的時候，真的都會不小心就發生事故。"],["李部長孟諺：屏東之前已經完成一段，就是從屏東到潮州的高架，也增設了好幾個……"],["徐委員富癸：但是就差這最後一哩路啦。"],["李部長孟諺：這個是最後……"],["徐委員富癸：最後一哩路，這個要拜託院長跟部長再幫忙一下。"],["李部長孟諺：這個我們會現勘來做瞭解，再把結果跟委員報告。"],["徐委員富癸：是，謝謝。我想剩下最後的時間，本席要特別再請院長這邊幫忙，我想秀幾張我們的圖片，我們現在進入老年化的社會，屏東縣政府也積極推動所謂關懷據點的設備，讓這些老人家平常可以來這邊互動、做遊戲、共餐，以延緩他們一些老化跟失智的狀況，但是因為我們現在原有的公共設施不足，甚至包含我們的廚房也好，以及活動中心很多的設備也好，都已經很老舊。目前根據統計，328處社區關懷據點有222處是公有空間，106處是私有空間，沒有合適廚房的環境一共有172處，缺乏無障礙廁所的也有79處，所以就是我們有超過八成據點的硬體設備實在比較不理想，對老人家使用上真的比較不方便，本席要請院長這邊來幫忙，是不是針對廚房修繕以及無障礙廁所的修繕，給予縣政府支持？第二個，針對人口老化地區，能夠興建多功能活動空間。第三個，針對屏東關懷據點的軟、硬體建設給予更多挹注，然後給予更多協助；這幾點是不是請院長答復？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們過去在前瞻以及特別統籌分配稅款，都有對屏東做了一些類似剛剛委員提到的這些補助，現在前瞻已經結束了，但我們再另外想辦法籌措其他適當財源，對地方作補助。"],["徐委員富癸：好。跟院長報告，現在內政部補助村里活動中心一個只剩下400萬，但是現在因為物調，根本蓋不起來，隨便蓋都要一、二千萬，是否應該要檢討一下這個補助400萬的規定？能不能再拉高上限，以減輕我們鄉鎮公所和縣市政府的負擔？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再設法找適當的財源來做相關的補助，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝徐委員，謝謝院長。400萬是真的不夠啦！","下一位我們請許智傑委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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126年才能夠完工那後來我們院長這邊我們在協調的時候陳前院長也有協調說能夠加快施程但是怎麼最近有聽到說等到120年才可以動工有這個訊息嗎?"},{"start":476.545,"end":500.945,"text":"我們目前預估因為中規完成中規要合定之前一定要通過二階環評那這個二階環評一般都要兩年半左右的時間因為他至少要一年四季的這個環境調查就是新的快速道路都要做二階環評所以目前預估大概整個動工要大概在119年之後"},{"start":501.806,"end":502.427,"text":"徐富癸徐富癸"},{"start":525.41,"end":526.911,"text":"第三個部分再請教院長我想"},{"start":553.482,"end":578.063,"text":"高潔來到屏東也是我們很多鄉親的一個期待。目前高潔紅線南沿到我們的屏東的東港跟林邊,預計我們9月底可以將可行性評估送到中央來核定。但是因為前陣子有遇到所謂一個高價化跟地下化的一個討論,請教院長跟部長目前最近的進度是到哪裡?"},{"start":579.274,"end":591.327,"text":"最近縣府就會我記得他已經把可行性的規劃送到院裡面來送到交通部那我們在7月份會召開會議那現在採的方案就是高架"},{"start":592.284,"end":596.486,"text":"高雄本身的紅線就是高架,所以我們延伸屏東也是用高架來接,而且是在同一個站來轉乘。"},{"start":615.612,"end":642.14,"text":"那因為現在我們的鄉親之前還是一直期待所謂的一車到底這個部分那當然現在有考慮到我們的運量的一個不一樣的那目前我們有沒有做進一步的調整還是現在就都還是高價接高價就是屏東到臨遠這邊是高價跟臨遠這邊紅線的高價銜接那但是我們的是用輕軌的運量因為事實上這個這種那是同一個外台跟外車過來沒有"},{"start":644.761,"end":645.121,"text":"﹚徐富癸﹚"},{"start":665.776,"end":672.781,"text":"那目前還是以119年為通車的目標嗎?時間的部分可能就是目前如果最近能夠核定可行性那後續就是還有還品等等這個階段我們來設法怎麼樣來加速"},{"start":694.76,"end":694.98,"text":"是的,好。"},{"start":721.67,"end":721.911,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":739.52,"end":739.84,"text":"﹚徐富癸"},{"start":763.063,"end":763.323,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":785.913,"end":786.794,"text":"市長做什麼的規劃?市長做什麼的規劃?"},{"start":806.866,"end":808.846,"text":"徐富癸徐富癸徐富癸徐富癸"},{"start":831.611,"end":853.683,"text":"那我想剩下最後一個時間要特別再跟請院長這邊幫忙那我想我們秀了幾張我們的圖片我想我們現在進入老年化的一個社會那從屏東縣政府我們也積極推動所謂一個關懷據點的一個設備那讓這些老人家我們平常可以來這邊"},{"start":854.583,"end":855.343,"text":"徐富癸徐富癸"},{"start":877.671,"end":878.652,"text":"徐富癸徐富癸徐富癸"},{"start":896.784,"end":897.304,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":925.796,"end":934.678,"text":"平東關懷據點的軟硬體建設給予更多的益助,然後給予更多的協助,這點請院長來答覆。"},{"start":972.209,"end":972.229,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154548","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154548","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e978f60b2aff8b951ca412a25d0aa7d1a496034d888474fb5f9e0f426a43ff29c455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"17:19:30 - 17:35:19","影片長度":"00:15:49","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T17:19:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T17:35:19+08:00","duration":949,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":588,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（17時19分）謝謝主席，我們請院長。"],["主席：請院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：院長好。院長，我在今年3月份質詢陳建仁院長的時候，特別提到彰化市的兩個重大建設，一個是彰化市的鐵路高架，另外一個是臺中捷運綠線延伸到彰化，這兩個重大的交通建設。我想請教的是，其實這兩個重大的建設在地方，甚至在中央也一直提到，從我當議員到現在也將近20年的時間，這20年的時間，我看到從地方的規劃、中央的規劃，一直到現在，彰化市的鐵路高架目前是進入到綜合規劃。","在111年的時候，行政院通過可行性研究，111年5月27號啟動綜合規劃的作業，到今年3月份我質詢陳建仁院長的時候有特別提到，感覺好像從111年到現在完全都沒有什麼進度，我當時就有特別提到，是不是可以每三個月讓本席知道目前這兩個重大建設的進度到底如何。在5月份的時候，交通部這邊也有給我一個結論，就是在今年3月份的時候有召開一個協商會議，目前彰化鐵路高架的基地位置，彰化縣政府跟交通部鐵道局，可能大家對這個位置沒有一個共識。","我想請教的是，院長跟部長是不是可以來協助，讓彰化的重大建設能夠儘速啟動？我知道如果中央這邊沒有儘速來協助的話，我可以預測，可能經過4年之後都還停留在綜合規劃，所以我是不是可以請院長或部長來回應一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員所說的是從花壇到二水的高架段嗎？"],["黃委員秀芳：彰化市的鐵路高架……"],["卓院長榮泰：彰化市……"],["黃委員秀芳：因為彰化市的鐵路高架有一個非常重要的部分，就是有一個機務段需要遷移。"],["卓院長榮泰：花壇這一段？"],["黃委員秀芳：鐵道局是希望能夠遷到花壇或二水，彰化縣政府是希望能夠遷到大肚。縣府跟交通部這邊，我們當然希望能夠有一個共識最好，如果現在完全都沒有一個共識的話，是不是我拜託院長可以介入來協助？"],["卓院長榮泰：交通部已經跟縣政府在協商，我請交通部報告。"],["黃委員秀芳：目前的進度呢？"],["李部長孟諺：彰化縣政府已經在今年的6月26日有一個正式公文，他們同意採用花壇跟二水結合的這個方案，原則上已經不堅持把這個機廠移到大肚去，因為坦白說，如果設在大肚，但我們的主發站是在彰化，那它的車輛是有一點違背調度的原則，會從北邊往南，從大肚調到彰化站，然後再從彰化站出發到樹林，這樣的調度方法是違背臺鐵的一般調度原則，因此臺鐵還是期待在二水跟花壇設相關的調度場。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以目前為止是……"],["李部長孟諺：縣府已經同意了。"],["黃委員秀芳：縣政府原則同意在花壇跟二水……"],["李部長孟諺：對，所以我們就根據這個原則，趕快來進入下一步的階段。"],["黃委員秀芳：後續呢？後續進度是？"],["李部長孟諺：後續就是在這個原則之下，將綜規做一個審核，綜規如果核定，就等於開始啟動設計跟發包的階段。"],["黃委員秀芳：預計還要多久？"],["李部長孟諺：綜規的部分，我們儘速跟縣府合作，希望在今年的下半年可以把綜規包括相關的環評等等做一個定案。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以預計是在今年年底……"],["李部長孟諺：年底前。"],["黃委員秀芳：綜合規劃的部分可以完成？"],["李部長孟諺：對，包括經過國發會的審議，還有經過報院的核可。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，這個是我們的期待。部長，我真的是期待，你上任之後……"],["李部長孟諺：等於是現在有一個……"],["黃委員秀芳：因為你也是彰化人，這對彰化市真的算是一個重大的建設，而且對彰化的發展真的是影響非常地大。你是彰化人，你也是花壇人，所以我希望能夠幫助彰化儘速將這個重大建設真的在你任內把它完成，我覺得也許真的可以在你的任內動工，然後把它完成，也許有可能啊，對不對？所以是不是可以麻煩……"],["李部長孟諺：我們希望這些建設都能夠符合鄉親的期待。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。另外一個臺中捷運綠線延伸到彰化的部分，目前是有條件的通過可行性評估嘛？"],["李部長孟諺：對，可行性。"],["黃委員秀芳：後續的部分，縣府說已經送了彰東的擴大都市計畫，那我想請教，未來這個可能也需要縣府跟交通部一起來合作，才有辦法儘速來完成。"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，當時會先核定可行，這個一直糾結在那裡，主要是因為彰東都市計畫的內容縣府這邊一直都沒有辦法定案，也沒有辦法經過內政部的核准，那時候就變成到底是都市計畫要先定案，還是捷運可行性要先核定，後來院裡面在鄭副院長的協調下，先讓可行性通過，但是有一個但書，就是在綜規之前，這個都市計畫要經過內政部的同意，所以現在就要請縣府趕快把這個都市計畫的內容經過內政部同意，這樣才知道站要設在哪裡、具體的位置，還有當地會劃多少產業園區、多少住宅區，才知道未來的運量，那個運量才會精準，所以目前就要請縣府趕快把這個部分處理好，包括送到內政部去審核，都市計畫一定案後，後面的綜規就可以比較快地跟往北的延伸一起核定。"],["黃委員秀芳：這個也是重大建設，對整個彰化市的發展非常的重要，所以我也拜託院長這邊，指派政委也好，或者是交通部，可以協助彰化縣政府儘速把需要具備的這些，譬如都市計畫也好，或者是可能需要的一些資料能夠完備，儘速讓臺中捷運綠線延伸到彰化的部分能夠完成。這一段如果資料沒有辦法完成，或者是都市計畫沒辦法完成的話，其實也會影響到整個臺中捷運綠線北延到大坑的期程，整個期程可能也都會有延誤，所以我是不是可以拜託院長，針對這個延伸到彰化的部分，協助我們彰化縣政府儘速完成？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，因為彰化縣政府要補送資料到內政部的都市審議委員會，都市審議委員會跟內政部會一起協助彰化縣政府加速完成這樣的工作，我也請委員幫忙跟彰化縣政府說，儘量蒐集地方的意見，到底要採取區段徵收，或者選擇什麼樣的方式，趕快確定之後，將它送到都委會來，內政部會加速來安排，讓它早日定案。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我下午聽了好幾位委員在講，不論是鐵路要地下化或者是高架化，其實我都覺得我們彰化的鐵路高架到現在已經講了將近20年，從我第一屆當立委的時候，只要是院長來備詢，我幾乎都會提到我們彰化的鐵路高架跟捷運綠線，所以到現在還在綜合規劃當中，我覺得真的滿可惜的啦！如果可以儘速的話，其實可以看到整個彰化的發展應該會非常迅速，因為彰化是六都以外人口最多的地方，全縣有123萬人口，彰化也是中小企業非常多的一個地方，農業也非常地發達，所以如果整個交通運輸網絡能夠更縝密、更加快速的話，其實對整個彰化的發展會有很大的幫助。所以我再次拜託院長還有部長，針對這兩個對彰化市非常重要的交通建設，是不是可以請院長跟部長來協助？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我會要求內政部請彰化縣政府加速辦理。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然院裡面這邊也要全力來協助啦，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然、當然。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，提到彰化的鐵路高架之後，我還要提到彰化車站旁邊有一個扇形車庫，我不知道院長有沒有去過扇形車庫？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有去過。"],["黃委員秀芳：沒有去過嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道它是一個歷史悠久的……"],["黃委員秀芳：對，亞洲唯二的扇形車庫，每一次新的院長在這邊備詢的時候，我一定要讓院長知道，這個全臺灣唯一的扇形車庫，也是亞洲唯二的扇形車庫，保留到現在也算是國定古蹟。扇形車庫每個假日或者是平常都有很多的遊客，很可惜，其實它的腹地不大，旁邊還有一個舊的鐵路宿舍群，這個鐵路宿舍群目前彰化市公所跟臺鐵公司承租3棟，它裡面總共有四十幾棟，都已經很破舊不堪了，彰化市公所跟臺鐵公司已經承租3棟，他們要自行維修，文資局這邊也有補助7,836萬的經費，很可惜7,836萬就只能整修3棟，全部有四十幾棟耶！我是不是請求我們院長可以比照北部有一個鐵道博物館，院長你應該要想到，亞洲唯二的扇形車庫是多麼的珍貴，又是國定古蹟，旁邊還有一個鐵路宿舍群，如果可以整個全部整修起來，其實就像嘉義的森活檜意村一樣，可以吸引很多的不論是國際的遊客，或者是臺灣所有的民眾都可以來看到，我們這個國定古蹟扇形車庫旁邊又有一個鐵路宿舍群，我是不是可以麻煩院長回應一下，未來這個地方是不是有可能成為鐵道博物館的分館？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺北或是其他包括苗栗都有一些鐵路的博物館或園區的規劃，我剛剛跟部長講，或許我們去看一下這個扇形的車庫，已經是國定的古蹟了，文資保護的部分政府當然有責任要去做更好的規劃，除了保存之外，能夠有適度的活用，讓它跟民眾接近，我們在現場看看能夠做什麼樣的協助。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，好，我是不是跟院長約個時間……"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們實際到地方去看一下，除了看扇形車庫之外，我們也要去看旁邊的舊的鐵路宿舍群，如果旁邊可以整個把它活絡起來，其實一方面也可以帶動我們彰化的地方觀光，又結合未來的鐵路高架化，其實整個彰化的進步就是在這邊，所以要再次的拜託院長，真的針對我們彰化的重大建設，這兩項真的要拜託院長關注一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["黃委員秀芳：讓這兩項的重大工程能夠儘速動工。"],["李部長孟諺：我想跟委員報告，扇形車庫確實是彰化的一個寶貝，也是國定古蹟，是很多鐵道迷一定會去朝聖的地方，也因為這樣，所以鐵路高架遇到這個扇形車庫，就有很多的困難要去克服，也是因為這樣，所以彰化的鐵路高架會比較複雜，因為為了要讓扇形車庫可以繼續運作，還要多拉一條軌道，這個部分也都放在我們這次整個高架的規劃案。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，這個很早之前就有定下來，就是扇形車庫它是要保留……"],["李部長孟諺：繼續用。"],["黃委員秀芳：而且是活化的，不是變成沒有在活用的一個地方，它還是繼續可以做運轉的地方，所以我再次的麻煩院長還有部長，針對我剛剛講的這兩項彰化的重大建設，真的要麻煩。","另外，剛剛我有聽到月琴委員有特別提到我們幼兒專用車的部分，因為在6月份的時候，衛環委員會也有針對幼兒專用車特別去考察。前陣子在彰化有娃娃車車禍，小朋友就被拋出車外，一個是拋出車外、一個是顱骨嚴重的骨折，所以我們希望針對娃娃車的這個部分，是不是交通部要去看一下，也要去找專家學者來研議，我們現在娃娃車、幼兒的專用車，它是沒有安全帶的嘛！有安全帶跟沒有安全帶的差別，我們現在坐車一定要用安全帶，可是我們的幼兒專用車反而是沒有，那這樣子的話會不會萬一碰撞的時候，幼童他是被拋出車外，造成很重大嚴重的傷害、生命危險，所以我們是不是請交通部針對這部分，也要去找專家學者來研議，幼兒專用車要如何精進、如何改善？"],["卓院長榮泰：娃娃車的部分，中央在汰換的時候有補助40%，我們也希望車廠能夠研發比較安全的車種，這個我們會跟車廠來進行必要的溝通。"],["黃委員秀芳：好不好？這也真的要列入交通部非常重要的一個課題，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員、謝謝院長。","下一位我們請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然當然"},{"start":597.022,"end":603.607,"text":"我也是每一次這個新的院長在這邊備選的時候我一定要讓院長知道這個全台灣唯一一個扇形車庫也是亞洲唯二的一個扇形車庫那"},{"start":615.776,"end":616.296,"text":"國定古蹟 塞行車庫"},{"start":633.469,"end":633.629,"text":"﹚黃秀芳"},{"start":648.8,"end":649.761,"text":"﹚三、7月5日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。﹚黃秀芳"},{"start":672.445,"end":678.784,"text":"那我是不是可以請求我們院長可以比照我們北部有一個鐵道博物館"},{"start":681.503,"end":703.029,"text":"這個院長你應該要想到就是說亞洲唯二的這個扇形車庫是多麼的珍貴又是國定古蹟那旁邊如果還有一個這個鐵路宿舍群如果可以整個全部整修起來其實就像我們這個嘉義的這個生活快意村一樣那可以吸引很多的"},{"start":703.609,"end":708.093,"text":"國定古蹟、扇形車庫旁邊又有一個鐵路宿舍群。未來這個地方是不是有可能成為我們的鐵道博物館的分館?"},{"start":725.868,"end":748.588,"text":"台北或是其他包括苗栗都有一些鐵路的博物館或園區的規劃我剛剛部長講或是我們去看一下這個扇形的車庫文資的保護已經是國定的古蹟了那政府當然有責任要去做更好的規劃除了保存之外能夠有適度的活用讓他跟民眾接近那我們在現場看看能不能做什麼的協助"},{"start":749.769,"end":767.001,"text":"我是不是跟院長這邊約個時間,我們實際到地方去看一下,除了看扇形車庫之外,我們也要去看旁邊的這個舊的鐵路宿舍群。如果整個旁邊可以整個把它活絡起來,其實一方面也可以帶動我們彰化的地方的觀光。"},{"start":767.742,"end":787.482,"text":"那又結合我們未來的鐵路高架化其實整個彰化的進步就是在這邊所以在這邊要再次的拜託院長真的針對我們彰化的重大建設這兩項真的要拜託院長真的關注一下那能夠盡速讓這兩項的重大工程能夠盡速動工"},{"start":788.763,"end":808.88,"text":"是,我想跟委員報告,善行車庫確實是彰化的一個寶貝,那也是國定古蹟是很多鐵道迷一定會去朝聖的地方,那也因為這樣所以鐵路高架遇到這個善行車庫就花了很多的困難要去克服,那也是因為這樣所以彰化的鐵路高架會比較複雜,比較"},{"start":810.921,"end":836.327,"text":"因為為了讓善行車庫可以繼續運作還要多拉一條軌道那這個部分也都放在我們這次的整個規劃高價的規劃案那這個很早之前就有定下來就是說善行車庫他是要保留是要保留而且是活化的不是變成一個就是一個沒有在活用的一個地方他是還是繼續可以做他"},{"start":836.807,"end":836.967,"text":"﹚黃秀芳"},{"start":865.956,"end":892.396,"text":"那在前陣子在彰化就有這個娃娃車車禍那小朋友就跑出車外那一個是跑出車外一個是這個顱骨嚴重的這個骨折所以我們希望就是說針對這個娃娃車的這個部分就是希望交通部這邊針對這一部分是不是你們要去看一下也要去這個找專家學者來研議"},{"start":893.157,"end":914.268,"text":"好,針對我們現在說這個娃娃車,這個幼兒的專用車它是沒有安全帶的嘛,那有安全帶跟沒有安全帶它的差別,我們現在坐車一定要用安全帶,可是我們的這個幼兒專用車反而是沒有,那這樣子的話會不會造成,如果萬一碰撞的時候,這個我們的幼童它是拋出車外,"},{"start":915.388,"end":920.671,"text":"拜託交通部針對這部分也要去找專家學生來研議要怎麼樣去做幼兒專用車經濟要如何去改善"},{"start":947.732,"end":947.752,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154547","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154547","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e97d85d7d21c16e6db1412a25d0aa7d1a496034d888474fb5f97f55414fe2fddc5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"17:03:34 - 17:19:16","影片長度":"00:15:42","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T17:03:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T17:19:16+08:00","duration":942,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":551,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（17時3分）主席好，麻煩卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：院長午安，辛苦了。我來自民間團體，也長期關心兒少及交通安全。今天我先針對在這個會期裡面一直想解決的一些問題就教一下院長及部長。","第一個是無照駕駛的問題。從這個數據可以看到，平均每一年大概7萬人的傷亡，而且累犯比例非常高，事故件數近5年大概成長了22%，肇事的死亡率高，比酒駕更嚴重，所以我想問的是，除了提高罰鍰以外，針對其他更有效的管理措施，像扣車和連帶處罰，不知道部裡面有沒有修法的打算？"],["李部長孟諺：現在我們確實是對無照駕駛有研擬更新的包括提高罰責，讓無照駕駛的部分可以得到抑制，至於說是不是要有扣車跟連坐、連帶處罰，就是說跟他同乘的，或是車子借給這個無照駕駛人使用的，是不是有連帶的處罰……"],["林委員月琴：是，部長，為什麼……"],["李部長孟諺：這個部分，我們還要再開會來廣泛徵求各界的意見。"],["林委員月琴：我會在這時候提，是因為未成年無照駕駛真的死傷非常地嚴重，當然不是只有未成年，事實上，成年無照駕駛這個問題也造成每一年有近千億的社會成本，可能要去考慮。","接下來要問的是，針對幼童專用車，目前是不安全又沒得選，為什麼不安全？現在只能靠一款車，可是它沒有安全氣囊、沒有任何所謂的主被動安全系統，也沒有碰撞測試，也請部長很簡單的回答，何時能夠讓我們有安全的幼童專用車可以搭乘？未來是不是有幼童專用車改善的2.0版方案？"],["李部長孟諺：是，跟委員報告，現在的幼童專用車，其實依照目前的規範，我記得大概是民國九十幾年，那時候就已經有訂，它必須經過40種安全的測試跟檢驗，所以目前是已經有相關的規定，但是碰撞的測試、碰撞的檢驗，或者是兒童座椅，等於是座椅的安全帶，因為過去有討論過座椅安全帶要不要強制設置，有很多專家是擔心萬一發生狀況的時候，兒童不會自己解開安全帶，所以當時這個部分有被擱置，不過我們會再重啟……"],["林委員月琴：對，部長，因為事實上是二到六歲的孩子在乘坐幼童專用車，目前有兩千多輛，而且我們國內只有一款車，真的是沒得選，所以我希望2.0版儘快能夠出來，來照顧我們的孩子……"],["李部長孟諺：就是說在40項檢驗之外，對於碰撞是不是造成傷害、怎麼樣去補強，或是說增加檢驗，還有包括……"],["林委員月琴：不過，我知道中華得利卡是沒有所謂的40項碰撞甚至相關的試驗，所以我覺得可能還是要去考慮這一塊。可是今天我主要的議題是在於，因為今天這個題目，我是背負著公民團體的期待來進行質詢的，所以也希望我們一起幫幫忙來解決這樣一個狀況。","首先，我要問院長，你同不同意現在交通違規的罰鍰是政府的提款機？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該不是吧！"],["林委員月琴：對，我想也是。可是臺灣從交通違規被罰到罰鍰的分配，很常被我們的路權團體嘲笑是一臺提款機、永動機，為什麼他們這樣講？第一，我們的道路環境不佳造成違規，然後造成人民被罰，被罰之後，我們的罰鍰又沒有用於我們的環境改善，然後再度的違規、再度的被罰。第二，我們的罰鍰事實上是用於購買科技的執法設備，並沒有用到道路環境的改善，可是現在科技執法不記點，放任我們的高風險駕駛人繼續危害弱勢用路人，形成了一個惡性循環。","院長跟部長看看這些道路環境設計的問題，是不是一直在陷害我們的用路人？這則新聞提到的是騎樓停滿車，沒路可走，行人被取締不靠邊走。可是我要問的是，如何靠邊走？已經是沒路可走了。從下一則新聞可以看到，之前在文化大學周遭因為沒有人行道，行人必須貼著路邊走，然後被撞死的是一個便當店老闆娘，他同樣也是被警察講說：怎麼不靠邊走呢？可是我一樣要問的是：如何靠邊走？就已經沒路可走了。這些新聞不是特例，因為現狀就是我們有很多的弱勢用路人、行人跟我們的兒少和身障者都被迫要與車爭道。所以前一陣子，大家在吵微罪不記點的時候，我們的職業駕駛人工會都來跟我講，很多時候不是他們不想守法，是道路環境太差了，陷他們於不義。交通路權團體跟我們的身障家長族群在抱怨，政府在放寬記點制度的時候，同時有沒有去考慮到我們交通環境的改善？這些配套措施到底在哪裡？所以我想問的是，院長，這些道路環境的改善問題，政府打算怎麼解決，然後要多久時間，會投入多少經費預算，有管考制度嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，委員提到剛剛所說的道路交通違規罰鍰，其中提撥12%作為交通安全及執法的改善，其中有一部分除了優先事項之外，地方政府可以用在道路安全、路面等等的改善工程，其他當然還要做很多，包括周遭違規的取締等等，包括員警各方面要努力。"],["林委員月琴：這次行政院很用心提出這樣的一個政策，現在投入4年400億想要去解決、洗刷我們行人地獄的惡名，不過4年400億的經費不是長期性的，財源也不是穩定性的，也沒有制度化的法源依據，當然我們就會很擔心這樣的計畫可能沒有辦法達到永續安全的目標。所以這次會用這個主題來質詢，就是想透過這樣的質詢來幫你找到我們的錢藏在哪裡。","這是交通部提供的圖表，我們的罰鍰收入總額年年增加，其中收到最多分配款項的是各地方政府，每一年大概有130億，六都大概10到20億。剛剛前面講4年400億，一年大概有100億補助到22縣市，如果一年就有130億用在道路環境的改善，是不是就可以解決我們前面講的惡性循環？","院長，依照現行規定，在國道上的違規罰鍰收入有17%要運用在交通環境改善，你認為多少比例的罰鍰收入，就像我們剛剛講的給地方政府的，多少比例的罰鍰收入放在交通環境改善上比較合情合理？"],["卓院長榮泰：這可能要看現在收來的款項依照目前的比例分配之後，它的執行狀況如何，可以再做進一步的檢討。"],["李部長孟諺：也跟委員報告，現在以4年400億來做一些人行路口的改善，其實很多時候是擔心地方的執行量能，因為它做這些改善往往要去取消停車格或者是排除占用等等，反而有時候會擔心它執行不完，但是我覺得未來有一個長久的財源是非常好的。其實除了罰款的財源之外，還有另外一個可以考慮，就是現在我們都有撥給六都汽燃費，汽燃費也是專款專用用在道路，如果這兩筆錢都能夠有一定比例是特別針對安全設施的改善，我覺得可以提升這個部分。"],["林委員月琴：根據道路交通違規罰鍰收入分配及運用辦法第三條，本來就明定各縣市舉發的罰鍰收入有75%是進到縣市政府的金庫當中，可是最特別的就是怎麼運用，事實上沒人曉得、也沒人過問，所以我私底下去問某個縣市的交通局局長，問他這樣的經費你們怎麼用，他說很彈性、沒有設限。如果政府首長在意交通環境的話，的確會用在交通環境的改善，可是如果沒有的話也沒有關係。即便剛才院長講的12%的優先項目裡面，大概也有可能他們不用也沒有關係，因為頂多在道安考評的時候被扣分。更何況剛才院長提的是依據第四條的規定，的確要至少提撥12%作為交通執法和交通安全環境改善。不過可以看到基本上大概只有4項在講執法，2項是在講教育，我們講的交通安全3E政策裡面，包括執法、工程及教育，可是這裡面都沒有提到工程，所以也想問兩位知不知道國外對於這類交通罰鍰收入到底會怎麼運用？","日本稱為「反則金」的違規罰款，基本上是按照事故件數、人口數及改善道路長度，依比例分配地方，可是有要求專款專用於設施設置與道路環境改善，跟剛才說的地方執行很彈性、沒設限很不一樣。美國加州也有所謂的「交通安全基金」，同時也要求要專用於設施設備的購置跟事故傷害的預防，而且要求不可以用於警察人員薪酬的貼補，但可以用於導護人員的貼補。事實上我們的道交處罰條例本來就有講要有一定比例專款專用，用於改善道路交通，所以想問部長這邊一定比例的專款專用，究竟在實務執行上哪一部細則辦法有明定這一定比例？比例是多少？而且要用在改善道路交通。"],["李部長孟諺：是。我們現在有一個罰款分配辦法第四條有明定它的比例，裡面有規定至少12%用在道路安全設施，我想之後我們再來找各縣市政府開會，看怎麼樣把這個部分更明確化；另外，也給未來的包括審計單位，他們對地方政府在執行上最後的事後審計可以去監控、去瞭解有沒有專款專用，包括汽燃費是不是都用在道路上，讓這些錢都能夠用在路口上。"],["林委員月琴：部長，因為我剛剛提到的第三條是70%分配到地方政府，對地方政府裡邊的88%，我們是沒有管控的，其中的12%，如你剛剛講的……"],["李部長孟諺：對。"],["林委員月琴：的確它有講到改善環境，但重點是其中的六項優先項目是執法的配備跟教育，完全沒有提到道路環境，所以這就是我們擔心的。甚至也可以說那88%可不可以明定為道路環境的改善，而不是讓各地方政府把這個金庫用在不是道路環境改善當中，那就會形成我剛剛前面講的，永遠就是一個惡性循環。因為道路環境不佳，人民事實上違規被罰，被罰之後罰鍰又沒有用在道路環境改善，又再度地被罰，這不會是一件好事啦！","當然我們很期待是不是可以這樣來考量，我知道這個涉及、牽扯到地方政府的權限，當然也不是我們今天在這邊談了、說了就算，為求謹慎，如何去訂定地方政府專用於道路環境改善的比例，需要中央跟地方一起來充分溝通，所以是不是中央可以邀集地方政府來充分溝通？或許可以參考一下我們剛剛提到的國道建設管理基金的比例，明定17%，至少在88%裡面可不可以訂一些比例，在12%裡面也可以去考慮要求這部分，而不是道安的分數扣了就算了。","最後就想問，院長和部長在這裡有沒有機會可以承諾讓罰鍰收入設定一定比例？不過，當然也要問你們心目中的那個比例到底是多少，是不是運用在我們的道路環境當中？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的建議，立意非常好，但我們現在要突破的是財政紀律法第七條，政府的收入固定進入一個基金之後，它無法專款專用的指定，所以我們是不是從剛剛部長所說的，在現在的比例之下，對於這些優先支應的事項能夠做明確的規範，讓它在交通安全項下，地方政府考量財源的時候，真的優先支用在交通工程的改善，是不是這樣做會比較不會違背財政紀律法的規定？"],["林委員月琴：好，當然我還是期待，因為我認為如果道路環境不改善的話，人民就是被迫可能是違規、可能是死傷，所以院長未來我們還有7個會期，我們一起努力。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。下一位我們請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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用路人。這則新聞提到的是騎樓停滿車沒路可走那行人被取締不靠邊走可是我要問的是啊如果靠邊走已經是沒路可走了"},{"start":326.58,"end":337.453,"text":"下一則新聞就可以看到之前在文化大學我們的周遭環境因為沒有人行道而他必須貼著路邊走然後呢被撞死的一個便當店的老闆娘"},{"start":338.288,"end":356.305,"text":"他同樣也是被警察講說怎麼不靠邊走呢可是我一樣要問的是那如何靠邊走就已經沒路可走啦那這些新聞不是特例因為現狀就是我們有很多的弱勢用路人行人跟我們的兒少跟身障者都被迫要與車爭道"},{"start":357.594,"end":382.334,"text":"所以前一陣子大家在草圍最不祭典的時候我們的職業駕駛人工會都來跟我講說很多時候不是他們不想守法是道路環境太差了先他們也不育那交通路權團體跟我們的身障跟家長族群他們也在抱怨也就是政府在放寬祭典制度的時候同時有沒有去考慮到我們交通環境的改善這些配套措施到底在哪邊"},{"start":383.355,"end":395.345,"text":"那所以就想來問的是,院長這些道路環境的改善問題政府打算怎麼解決,然後要多久的時間,會投入多少的經費預算,有管考的制度嗎?"},{"start":397.033,"end":422.641,"text":"謝謝委員。如果委員提到剛剛所說的道路交通違規的罰款其中提撥12%作為交通安全跟這個交通安全跟執法的改善其中有一部分除了優先事項之外地方政府可以用在道路安全路面等等的改善工程那其他當然還要做很多包括這個周遭違規的取締等等這個都要在包括遠景各方面要努力的"},{"start":424.036,"end":435.504,"text":"我想這是我們行政院很用心的就是有這樣的一個政策就是我們現在大概四年四百億的確事實上想要去解決我們洗刷我們行人地獄的這樣子的一個惡名"},{"start":436.516,"end":458.871,"text":"不過這四年四百億這個經費不是長期性的財源也不是穩定性的所以也沒有制度化的法源依據但我們就很擔心說這樣的計畫可能沒有辦法達到永續安全的一個目標所以這次會議用這個主題來質詢就是希望院長想透過這個樣的質詢來幫你找到我們的錢藏在哪裡"},{"start":459.631,"end":459.711,"text":"﹝發言委員﹞"},{"start":478.919,"end":479.039,"text":"﹚林月琴"},{"start":493.41,"end":520.99,"text":"院長如果是依照現行規定的話在國道上我們的違規的罰款收入有17%要運用在交通環境的改善那你認為多少的比例的罰款收入就是我們剛剛講給地方政府的多少的比例收入可以放在交通環境改善上比較合情合理這可能要現在看看他現在收來的款項在目前的比例分配之後他執行的狀況如何可以再做進一步的檢討"},{"start":523.534,"end":543.411,"text":"也跟委員報告其實現在四年四百億來做一些人行路口的這個改善其實很多時候是擔心地方的執行量能因為他做這些改善往往要去比如說取消停車格或者是排除佔用等等所以反而有時候會擔心他執行不完"},{"start":543.911,"end":548.112,"text":"因為我們法規在根據我們的道路交通違規法環的收入分配跟運用辦法的第三條"},{"start":572.057,"end":579.261,"text":"本來就明定說我們各縣市的舉發的罰款收入有75%是進到縣市政府的金庫當中。"},{"start":580.509,"end":605.116,"text":"可是最特別的就是怎麼運用事實上沒人曉得也沒人過問所以我私底下去問某個縣市的交通局局長問他說你們這樣的經費怎麼用他說很難信沒有設限如果政府首長呢他在意交通環境的話的確會用在交通環境的改善可是如果沒有的話也沒有關係即便剛才院長講的那個12%的優先項目裡邊"},{"start":607.737,"end":636.229,"text":"大概有可能他們不用也沒有關係因為頂多道安考評的時候被扣分更何況剛剛院長提的那是應據第四條的規定是提的確是要至少提撥百分之十二來作為交通執法跟我們的交通安全環境改善不過可以看到基本上大概就只有四項是在講執法兩項是在講教育我們講交通安全三一的政策裡邊"},{"start":637.048,"end":663.782,"text":"指法工程跟我們的教育可是這裡邊都沒有提到工程所以也想問兩位知不知道說在國外對於這類的交通罰款的收入到底會怎麼去運用那日本呢稱為反折金的那個違規的罰款呢他們基本上是按照我們的事故件數人口數跟改善道路的長度依比例來分配地方"},{"start":664.222,"end":691.785,"text":"可是有要求專款專用用於我們的設施設置跟道路環境改善跟地方剛才在執行的說很彈性然後沒設限很不一樣那美國加州也有所謂的交通安全基金的一個專用那他同時也是要求要專用於我們的設施設備構置跟事故傷害的預防而且要求不可以用於哪裡"},{"start":692.345,"end":718.56,"text":"警察人員的薪酬的貼補那甚至可以用於的是導護人員的貼補所以我就想問的是在這邊事實上是我們的道交處罰條例裡邊本來就有講說要有一定的比例來專款專用用在我們的改善道路交通所以想問部長這邊的一定比例的專款專用"},{"start":719.048,"end":729.804,"text":"究竟是在實務執行上有哪一步細則辦法有明定說這一定的比例比例是多少而且要用在我們的改善道路交通"},{"start":731.091,"end":755.209,"text":"我們現在有一個罰款分配辦法第4條有明定它的比例那裡面也有規定就是12%至少12%用在這個道路安全設施那我想之後我們再來找各縣市政府再來開會看怎麼樣把這個部分能夠更明確化那另外也給未來的包括審計單位"},{"start":756.51,"end":758.392,"text":"府長,因為我剛剛講齁,我們剛剛第三條講的是75%分配到我們的地方政府。"},{"start":778.004,"end":804.973,"text":"這地方政府裡邊的88%我們是沒有管控的其中的12%如你剛剛講的的確他有講在改善環境可是重點是他的其中的6項優先項目是執法的配備跟教育完全沒有提到道路環境所以這就是我們擔心甚至可不可以也可以講說那88%可不可以明定道路環境的改善而不是讓各地方政府用這個金庫呢"},{"start":805.393,"end":805.413,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":825.512,"end":849.397,"text":"所以當然我們就很期待是不是可以這樣來做一個考量因為我知道是這個涉及的有牽扯到地方政府的權限但也不是說我們今天在這邊談了說了就算那所以為求謹慎的話如何去訂定地方政府專用於這種道路環境改善的比例的話"},{"start":849.957,"end":859.292,"text":"﹗"},{"start":859.502,"end":886.941,"text":"我們剛剛提到的國道建設管理基金的比例明定17%至少你的88%裡邊可不可以定一些比例然後在12%裡邊也可以去考慮要求而不是道安的分數扣了就算所以最後就想讓我們的院長和部長在這邊有沒有機會可以承諾這個部分讓華環的收入設定的一定比例不過大家也要問"},{"start":887.642,"end":893.783,"text":"您們心目中的比例到底是多少?是不是運用在我們的道路環境當中?"},{"start":895.292,"end":924.034,"text":"謝謝委員的這個建議利益非常好但是我們現在要突破的是財政紀律法第7條政府的收入固定進入一個基金之後他無法專款專用的指定所以我們是不是從剛剛部長所說的在現在的比例之下對於這些優先之應的事項能夠做明確的規範讓他在交通安全的向下真的地方政府考量在裁員的時候優先之用在交通工程的改善"},{"start":924.514,"end":924.534,"text":"拜訪議員"}]}},{"id":"154546","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154546","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e9753ab2dd152f9bc42412a25d0aa7d1a496034d888474fb5f97b740a4ce868cf5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"16:47:35 - 17:03:25","影片長度":"00:15:50","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T16:47:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T17:03:25+08:00","duration":950,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（16時47分）謝謝主席，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：院長好。剛剛我們聽了張宏陸委員和吳秉叡委員的聯合質詢，確實，新北的交通問題真的是很多，因為我們需要的建設確確實實是非常的多。如果院長知道，其實你對我們新北也是有夠熟，尤其今天部長在這裡，更是以前臺北縣資深的官員。你看，新北市的人口如果普查起來就有403萬，常住人口更是436萬，這麼多的人口，如果用密度來講，雙北一起看，前5個最密集的區裡面，4個都是我們新北啊！不管是永和、蘆洲、板橋、三重，統統都是。這麼大量的人口又這麼密集，這種特殊的現象會讓我們的交通負擔非常、非常的大，所以需要的交通建設當然就很多。我給部長、院長看一下，我有用了一張圖來表示，你看，我用Google Maps來看，這張圖是星期一早上八點半雙北的狀況，部長，你應該有常常看Google Maps吧？應該有看過，院長應該也有看過，所以應該能夠理解紅色的線是什麼意思吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：車流量很大。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！就是塞車嘛。所以你看，在這邊我們所有標示出來的，以臺北市為一個中心圈的話，圍繞在它旁邊的三重、板橋、新莊、中永和，那個連續的線統統都是紅通通的，這樣看其實會覺得，哇！一切無解。所以我自己在看新北交通問題的時候，我是把它舒緩成為這樣的同心圓來讓大家彼此好溝通。","我的同心圓理論是這樣，如果臺北市是第一圈的話，那麼依著剛剛說的人口稠密度以及地理位置，顯然我們可以有第一圈，就是板橋、三重、新莊、中永和等等，還有外面的第二圈，他們的問題其實都不一樣，比如以靠近臺北市的第一圈而言，它最需要的是直接進入臺北市的聯絡道路，就是跨河進去臺北市，不管你用什麼方法，反正讓我過了河，進到臺北市可以上班、上學就好，可是第二圈的話，還要加上要如何移動到第一圈，才能再往臺北市前進，所以第二圈連第一圈的道路對我們來講就非常非常重要，甚至包括了在設計快速道路的時候，如果能夠有像剛剛秉叡委員說的，不管是國道一號的交流道也好，或者是快速道路的新莊匝道能夠增加也好，對我們來講，其實都是第二圈和第一圈之間有更多聯繫的窗口，這院長你完全可以同意吧？用這個圖來看的話，其實是非常清楚的狀況，這個沒有問題吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：同意，是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，可是還有第三類的問題，第三類的問題是如果我們能夠把第二圈的部分，就像我現在圖列的林口、八里，或者是土、樹、三、鶯等這些地方，他們彼此之間能夠串聯起來，我不需要進入到第一圈，才又回到第二圈，這就是我們在蓋軌道建設時的環狀線概念，如果我們的公路可以把彼此之間串起來，不但我們彼此之間的交通可以快速，對紓緩前面第一圈的交通流量當然也可以大幅減輕，這個道理非常非常清楚，這完全沒有問題吧？好，我們回到實際例子來看，我在這裡要先感謝行政院這幾年對新北的建設，我就以我自己選區遭遇的例子，也就是符合今天我質詢的題目，以公路體系來講，譬如這兩條交通建設對我們來講非常非常有效，像台65快速道路增設一個浮洲橋匝道，預算是4.7億，全部由中央出；同樣一個快速道路，因為增設了這樣一個匝道，我每次往返時間可以少20分鐘以上車程，這是整個地方大家都稱道的部分，因為它有效紓解了第二類問題，我們不用再進到第一圈裡面，我們第二圈自己就可以處理了，這就是紓緩。","好，還有另外環快道路部分，就是剛剛吳秉叡委員在在提到的，在通車部分，新北市政府到底有沒有邀請中央？這一條環河快速道路即將通車，從規劃一直到預算，全部都是中央出的，這一條除了大大地解決了我們新莊、樹林、鶯歌這種外圈的串聯之外，當然也紓解了如何在第一圈進到臺北市這樣的交通問題，所以這兩項建設都大獲好評。用這樣的例子，今天既然院長也完全認同我剛剛的說法，我剛剛花了5分鐘的時間跟你溝通這個問題，而且也有實例給你看，所以今天我有兩項問題是不是請院長這邊可以在備詢台正式承諾，第一個，就是林口到八里的105號市道，如果用剛剛的同心圓來看，其實林口到八里之間，因為山路很崎嶇，路況很差，如果這個地方的市道能夠做起來，那麼林口到八里之間不但可以自己溝通起來，甚至不需要進到五股，林口人要去八里，不用進到五股，然後再回來八里，去到淡水，這就差非常非常的多，但是它的預算確實很高，因為它的工法比較困難，市政府這邊應該也有爭取，雖然我們收到了陳情，我們會一起協助爭取，畢竟我是新北市的委員，請問院這邊是不是可以支持我們這樣的計畫，如同以前支持其他計畫一樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝蘇委員，剛剛所提到的，我想行政院過去以來到現在不會看地方執政是誰而有不同……"],["蘇委員巧慧：當然，建設是一體的，國家是大家的。"],["卓院長榮泰：對新北市的補助規劃也都相當好，也得到大家的肯定，也謝謝委員在各地的爭取。剛剛提到105號道路，我們過去在看淡江大橋的時候，有約略提到這個部分，所以我說有時間我們可以再去看一下，到底現場現在到什麼程度，未來需要交通部做什麼樣的努力，我們來看看。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這條是非常非常的有需要，但是因為我們都知道它的工法比較難一點，所以金額也很大，我們在這裡期待的是，我們已經不是第一次關心這個問題，我也不是在這裡才開始關心，就是因為金額大，所以我們需要的補助多，不但需要行政院的核定，而且希望補助的金額能夠越多越好，所以我在這裡再一次跟行政院爭取，我們認為這一條是有需要的，對新北市是重要的，所以我們希望這條行政院能夠儘速核定。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我們請交通部儘速辦理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是第一條啦！"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，這一條確實是可以讓林口新市鎮這一帶，包括龜山很多產業，包括卡車、車輛往西濱、往淡江大橋、往桃園機場的運送……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以它不是只有這一段的效益而已，而是延伸到整個區塊，所以即便現在錢看起來多，但是我覺得它的效益是無遠弗屆的，所以這一條實在要請中央大力支持啊！"],["李部長孟諺：可以減輕林口交流道及五股交流道的負擔。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有錯，所以這不只是一圈一段的問題，這是第一個。第二個是我更熟悉的，也就是剛剛說的台65號快速道路的部分，過去我們爭取的是浮洲橋一個匝道的部分，但是其實台65擔負的功能非常非常的大，所以現在我們再提出另外一段的計畫，它本來是從板橋開始，然後一路延伸到土城，我們現在是不是有機會把它再延展下去，甚至到桃園的龍潭，也就是變成現在大家希望能夠爭取的板龍快速道路，從台65變成板龍，我想增加的這一段，其實也是紓緩了剛剛我說的第四類的問題，就是我們的第二圈能夠跟臺北市以外其他地方的連結度，我想這個是重要的，而且一旦可以直接走這條路，我們就不需要繞其他原來的路，等於也紓緩了其他部分的交通壅塞度，我也希望行政院就這一條可以儘快開始進行可行性評估，表示支持的態度，不曉得行政院的答復是如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：先請部長講一下進度。"],["李部長孟諺：我想現在如果大家行經北二高，從龍潭一直到中和，特別是從鶯歌到中和這一段非常的塞，如果板龍能夠做，讓板橋到龍潭這一段有第二條的相關聯絡快速道路，我想對紓解北二高這邊的塞車，包括通勤等等的方便性可以增加很多。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我自己做了民意代表十年，我真心的知道如果我能夠爭取到一條道路、一個交通建設，那整個區塊、區貌、地區真的會發生巨大的改變，所以我在這裡真的是很誠摯的拜託。雖然新北市政府就是有剛剛吳秉叡委員、張宏陸委員所說的這樣的狀況，但我們爭取建設的心情還是一樣的，對新北市好的，我們都一樣向行政院爭取，相信行政院也會給我們最大的支持跟鼓勵，所以我們希望有計畫的就趕快核定，有補助就給我們最多的。"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，也把這一條列入桃竹苗大矽谷裡面的重要交通。"],["蘇委員巧慧：很好。"],["李部長孟諺：預計明年3月到4月就可以提出相關的期中報告。"],["蘇委員巧慧：非常好，我們希望整個越快越好，甚至我在這裡也要求交通部是不是可以就新北市已經有的，剛剛部長也聽到我說的幾類問題，我認為如果還有機會可以增設公路系統，把公路網串接起來，我都希望能夠再討論，我們來規劃，並且繼續支持，所以部長如果有在研議中的計畫，我希望我的辦公室可以得到一份這樣的資料，這是關於公路網的部分。","院長，我剛剛也跟你提到了，因為新北市就是繞著臺北市這樣的幾個圈圈，可是以第一圈來講，它的人口實在太多了，人口稠密度太高了，高到其實已經沒有空間可以再蓋新的路，這就是我們的現況。所以我想來想去，真的要解決交通壅塞的問題，其實還是必須靠大眾運輸。可是你從我們調查的這些資料來看，這幾年新北市的公共運輸狀況，其實反而連疫情前的狀況都還沒有回復到，既然沒有回復到疫情前達成的狀況，更不要說越來越好。完全沒有，連疫情前都還沒有！你看，111年搭乘公共運輸是有史以來最低的，使用私人運具是最高的，大眾運輸方面，公車的運量、路線、長度6年成長了10%，但是搭公車的人數6年萎縮了7%；現在使用公車的人次只有二千三百多萬，109年的時候還有2,500萬，你覺得這是什麼問題？我覺得問題應該是很多。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：包括疫情造成習慣改變都有可能，包括現在的天氣太熱，老實講，光是要走路去搭大眾運輸系統，我覺得其實對大家來講都是一件負擔很大的事情。"],["李部長孟諺：對，我想疫情期間因為不鼓勵大家群聚在一個密閉空間，所以那時候的運量，包括公車、包括捷運也都下跌。現在疫情之後，捷運、高鐵大概陸續都有回升，臺鐵也有回升，唯獨公車比疫情前大概還是下跌了10%左右。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我覺得做為一個新北市民，坦白講，我們搭大眾運輸的比例沒有臺北市民高，就是因為路網不夠方便，沒有像臺北市民可能走出去，很大一部分的人走出去沒多久就有公車、就有捷運，我們可能要走很久，那還不如騎一台摩托車。我算給部長及院長聽，如果是我，我住在樹林，我們坐火車到臺北上班，單程票是18元，一天36元，一個月如果25天上班好了，那就是900塊；可是你的TPASS目前是1,200塊錢，所以等於是我如果都認真上班、沒有出去玩，我沒有用到其他的方面，其實我買TPASS並不划算。如果我是三重人，平常是坐公車的好了，我平常坐公車去臺北上班，三重人到臺北的公車是一段15塊錢，上下班30塊，一個月25天，那更是只要750塊。所以對我們來講，TPASS雖然聽起來很不錯，但實際換算以後，好像沒有真的很划算。所以既不夠方便，離我家不夠近，錢好像也沒有多省，我為什麼會選擇大眾運輸呢？","所以我想來想去，我想在這裡很誠摯地建議行政院，TPASS有沒有可能設計2.0版本？它的起因是為了鼓勵更多人使用大眾運輸系統，然後它可以針對像我們這種不同載具、不同運具、不同區段的人，再設計出不同的方案、票價，讓我們覺得真的有優惠，這樣我們才有可能使用大眾運輸系統更多一點。院長，你怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們昨天在院會曾經對公路、客運的系統在疫後沒有預期的回復做了一個報告案，其中對於公路的路線、票價、人力的短缺，以及載具、運具的選擇都做了一些討論，我們再跟委員報告。TPASS 2.0是一個好的方式，讓大家真的能夠用到這個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對呀，你看這顯然就不夠划算啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以兩項都請行政院可以再幫我們考慮一下，這樣才能舒緩。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員。","下一位請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.657843750000001,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.20596875,"end":15.437843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.97221875,"end":25.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.49534375,"end":25.512218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.54596875,"end":33.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.27034375,"end":94.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.78409375000001,"end":105.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.05659375,"end":106.14096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.14096875000001,"end":106.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.15784375000001,"end":106.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.30971875,"end":106.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.32659375,"end":106.36034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.34346875,"end":107.82846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.82846875000001,"end":135.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.58784375000002,"end":214.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.51221875000002,"end":215.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.47409375,"end":215.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.30096875,"end":229.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.22284375,"end":245.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.27096875,"end":289.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.17971875,"end":290.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.81659375000004,"end":295.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.47409375,"end":343.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.85909375,"end":359.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.51909375,"end":369.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.88034375,"end":414.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.39659375,"end":415.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.60721875,"end":432.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.85784375000003,"end":434.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.17409375000005,"end":436.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.35096875000005,"end":442.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.62471875000006,"end":442.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.02096875,"end":448.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.57784375000006,"end":442.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.58534375000005,"end":458.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.82846875,"end":463.67159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.11471875,"end":495.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.70096875,"end":465.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.15596875000006,"end":496.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.17284375,"end":496.18971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.18971875000005,"end":496.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.89846875,"end":504.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.91534375000003,"end":497.45534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.45534375000005,"end":497.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.48909375000005,"end":497.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.53971875,"end":498.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.82971875000004,"end":515.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.48721875,"end":510.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.7353437500001,"end":526.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.8784687500001,"end":517.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.0247187500001,"end":529.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.60659375,"end":593.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.11534375,"end":595.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.85346875,"end":599.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.90346875,"end":601.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.31659375,"end":605.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.65784375,"end":606.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.61971875,"end":608.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.01596875,"end":612.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.6103437500001,"end":616.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.7109687500001,"end":617.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.75721875,"end":624.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.08534375,"end":657.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.62471875,"end":656.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.5990937500001,"end":657.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.6159687500001,"end":669.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.25971875,"end":759.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.79971875,"end":670.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.65909375,"end":764.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.12659375,"end":767.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":768.2822187500001,"en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蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧"},{"start":58.004,"end":58.104,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":87.933,"end":92.676,"text":"用Google Map他來看的這張圖是星期一早上8點半的這個雙北的狀況。部長這樣的圖齁,你應該有常常看GoogleMap吧,應該有看過嘛齁,院長應該也有看過,應該能夠理解紅色的線是什麼意思。"},{"start":106.087,"end":108.668,"text":"我自己在看新北交通問題的時候我是把它舒緩成為是一個這樣的同心圓來讓"},{"start":135.915,"end":136.095,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":153.328,"end":181.536,"text":"那還有外面的第二圈那他們的問題其實會都不一樣比如說以靠近台北市的第一圈的話他最需要的就是直接進入台北市的聯絡道路嘛就是跨河進去台北市不管你是用什麼樣的方法反正讓我過了河進到台北市可以上班上學這樣就好可是第二圈的話他就還加上了要如何移動到第一圈才能再往台北市前進"},{"start":182.376,"end":206.724,"text":"所以第二圈連第一圈的道路對我們來講就非常非常的重要這甚至包括了你在設計快速道路的時候如果能夠有像剛剛秉瑞委員在說的不管是國道一號的交流道也好或者是快速道路的新莊的這種它的閘道能夠增加也好對我們來講其實都是第二圈和第一圈之間能夠再多有"},{"start":207.264,"end":211.266,"text":"第三類的問題是如果我們能夠把這個第二圈的這個部分就像我現在列的這邊齁是林口、巴黎啊或者是我自己土樹山陰等等這些地方"},{"start":230.353,"end":230.593,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":246.266,"end":270.137,"text":"那其實對於不但我們彼此之間的交通可以快速而且對於舒緩前面第一圈的交通流量當然也是大幅減輕這個道理也是非常非常清楚這完全沒有問題吧好那我們就回到實際例子來看我必須在這裡齁我先在這裡啦先在這裡感謝行政院這幾年對我們新北的建設我就以"},{"start":270.797,"end":288.573,"text":"我自己的選區遭遇的例子也就是公路體系符合今天我要質詢的題目公路體系來講我必須說這兩條交通建設對我們來講非常非常的有效像是台65這個快速道路增設一個福州橋閘道這個地方全部的預算4.7億全部都是中央出的啊"},{"start":295.95,"end":317.482,"text":"但同樣一個快速道路就因為增設了這樣一個閘道我每次這樣往返的時間可以少20分鐘以上這個車程是整個地方大家都撐到的部分因為它就有效疏解了我們的第二類問題嘛我們不用再進到進到第一圈裡面我們第二圈自己就可以處理了這就是舒緩好"},{"start":318.983,"end":342.979,"text":"還有另外環快道路就是剛剛吳秉瑞委員再再的提到這個所謂要通車新北市政府到底有沒有邀請中央的這個部分這一條我們這個環口的快速道路即將通車也是中央政府不但從規劃一直到預算是全部都是中央出的這一條呢更是大大了解決了"},{"start":343.92,"end":369.282,"text":"我們新莊樹林英哥這種外圈的串聯之外當然也疏解了如何進去第一圈進到臺北市這樣的交通問題所以這兩項建設都大獲好評那用這樣的例子我今天既然院長你也完全認同我剛剛的說法我剛剛花了5分鐘的時間在跟你溝通這個而且也實力給你看了"},{"start":370.023,"end":393.181,"text":"那麼今天我有兩項,是不是請院長這邊可以在備詢臺正式的承諾吼。那第一個就是我們的林口到巴黎的105號這個市道的部分。如果用剛剛的這個同心園來看,其實這條是林口到巴黎之間喔。因為它的山路很崎嶇嘛,其實路況很差。如果這個地方的市道能夠做起來,"},{"start":394.342,"end":394.622,"text":"市政府這邊?"},{"start":416.65,"end":416.77,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":433.463,"end":447.92,"text":"謝謝蘇委員剛剛所提到的我想行政院過去以來到現在不會看地方執政是誰當然建設是一體的國家是大家的對新北市的補助規劃也都相當好也得到大家的肯定也謝謝委員在各地的爭取"},{"start":448.541,"end":449.182,"text":"綠條是非常非常的有需要啦"},{"start":465.796,"end":495.419,"text":"但是因為我們都知道他的公法是比較難一點所以金額也很大我們在這裡期待的是吼我們已經不是第一次關心這個不是在這裡才開始關心嘛就是因為金額大然後所以我們需要的補助多不但需要行政院的核定而且希望補助的金額能夠越多越好所以我在這裡再一次跟行政院爭取我們認為這條是有需要的對新北市是重要的所以我們希望這條行政院能夠盡速核定"},{"start":497.34,"end":517.608,"text":"這一條確實是可以讓林口新市鎮這一帶包括龜山很多產業他的包括卡車他的包括車輛往西濱往淡江大橋往這個桃園機場的運送所以他不是只有這一段的消費而他是延伸到整個區塊所以"},{"start":519.429,"end":537.712,"text":"即便現在錢看起來多,但是我覺得它的效益是無遠弗屆的,所以這條實在要請中央大力支持。也可以減輕林口交流道跟五五交流道的負擔。所以這不只是一圈一段的問題嘛,這是第一個。第二個是我更熟悉的,也就是剛剛說的台65號快速道路的部分。"},{"start":538.112,"end":538.372,"text":"蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧"},{"start":566.664,"end":567.024,"text":"先請部長講一下進度"},{"start":596.416,"end":621.45,"text":"我想現在如果大家行經這個北二高從龍潭一直到中和特別是從大概英哥到中和這一段非常的塞如果這個板農能夠做那讓板橋到這個龍潭這一段有一個第二條這個相關的聯絡的這個快速道路我想對整個疏解北二高這邊的塞車通勤等等的這個"},{"start":622.19,"end":622.35,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":643.678,"end":668.864,"text":"我們在爭取建設的心情還是是一樣的對新北是好的我們都一樣向行政院爭取相信行政院也會給我們最大的支持跟鼓勵啦所以我們希望有計畫的就趕快核定而有補助就給我們最多的是,更為報告也把這一條列入大細股桃竹廟大細股裡面的重要的一個交通很好預計明年的4月3月到4月就可以提出相關的期中報告"},{"start":669.284,"end":696.145,"text":"好,非常好,我們希望整個會越快越好。甚至是我在這裡也要求交通部,是不是可以就新北市已經有的,剛剛在說的,不管您剛剛也聽到,部長剛剛聽到我說的幾類的問題嘛。我認為如果還有機會可以增設,增設公路系統,把公路網串接起來的,我都希望能夠再討論,我們來規劃,並且來繼續支持。所以部長如果有在研議中的計畫,我希望能夠我的辦公室可以得到一份這樣的資料。好。"},{"start":697.646,"end":715.7,"text":"這是關於公路網的部分,但是喔,院長,我也剛也跟你提到了,因為新北市就是繞著臺北市這樣的幾個圈圈,可是那個第一圈來講,它的人口稠密實在是太多了,稠密度太高了,高到其實已經沒有空間可以再蓋新的路,這就是我們的現況。"},{"start":716.861,"end":742.409,"text":"所以我想來想去真的要解決交通擁捨的問題其實還是必須靠大眾運輸好可是你來看我們去調查這些資料來看這幾年新北市的這個公共運輸狀況其實反而連疫情前的狀況都還沒有回復到沒有回復到疫情前搭乘的狀況更不要說越來越好完全沒有連疫情前的都還沒有你看現在111年搭乘公共運輸"},{"start":745.33,"end":746.01,"text":"您覺得這是什麼問題啊?"},{"start":772.056,"end":777.041,"text":"我想疫情期間因為大家不鼓勵大家在群聚在一個密閉空間所以那時候的運量包括公車包括捷運也都下跌"},{"start":796.279,"end":815.253,"text":"現在疫情之後捷運高鐵大概陸續都有回升台鐵也有回升那唯獨公車還是比去年比疫情前大概還是下跌了我覺得作為一個新北市民我坦白講啦我們搭大眾運輸的比例沒有台北市民高就是因為他的入網不夠方便"},{"start":816.073,"end":842.291,"text":"他沒有像台北市民這樣我可能走出去很大一部分的人走出去沒多久就有公車就有捷運我們其實可能要走很久那還不如騎一台摩托車我算給部長跟院長聽如果是我我樹林喔我們坐火車到台北上班單程票是18元一天36元一個月用25天上班好了那就是900塊可是你的TPAS呢目前是1200塊錢"},{"start":844.457,"end":860.825,"text":"所以等於是我如果都只能認真上班我沒有出去玩我沒有用到其他的方面其實我買T-pass不會合啦那如果我是三重人我平常是騎我平常是坐公車的好了我平常是坐公車去台北上班三重人到台北公車一段15塊錢嘛"},{"start":862.426,"end":877.565,"text":"那15塊上下班30塊一個月25天那更是只要750塊啊所以對我們來講TPAS雖然聽起來很不錯但實際換算以後好像沒有說真的很划算"},{"start":878.146,"end":898.152,"text":"所以又不夠方便不夠離我家近錢好像也沒有多省那我為什麼會選擇大眾運輸呢所以我想來想去我想在這裡很誠摯的建議行政院TPOS有沒有可能設計2.0版本他的起因是為了鼓勵更多人使用大眾運輸系統"},{"start":899.332,"end":899.532,"text":"院長你怎麼看?"},{"start":916.95,"end":931.34,"text":"謝謝委員,我們昨天在院會曾經對過這個公路客運的系統在一後沒有預期的這樣回復做了一個報告案其中對於公路的路線、票價、人力的短缺以及...對啊,因為你看這顯然是不夠划算的,所以兩項都是"},{"start":948.002,"end":948.022,"text":"謝謝蘇委員"}]}},{"id":"154545","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154545","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e97aac97912bf81a188412a25d0aa7d1a49908f554dcbfda07e1f8b52eb6acc6bd65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"16:05:36 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你看市政府又來幫我們做了一個這麼偉大的建設這個建設當初蘇貞昌院長有新聞給新北市政府新北市政府說交通上不是最優先所以他不出錢"},{"start":616.403,"end":630.791,"text":"所以最後百分之百變成我們是中央政府出錢的。結果中央政府全部出錢之後,現在啟用典禮他來辦,新北市政府來辦,院也沒有邀請,中央民意代表也沒有邀請。這個完全是,我看這百分之百真的在我的眼前。我們這麼努力爭取了,幾、多少年前就開始在講,"},{"start":644.465,"end":665.514,"text":"然後行政院最後在蘇貞昌院長的時候問他說新北市政府願不願意做這條路要不要來大家來協調要怎麼開要支出經費的時候他跟你講說不是優先的交通建設項目他一毛錢都不出欸這個張宏陸委員也可以作證啊事實上就是這樣啊結果他7月16號辦啟用典禮了他完全不通知我們"},{"start":667.978,"end":697.978,"text":"﹗"},{"start":699.299,"end":723.676,"text":"這件事情做得很好但是溫子郡從化學區馬上土地再過兩年就分發下來就開始建設人口又會增加非常的多了所以五股交流道改善了一部分問題是絕對問題會繼續不斷我們應該要想辦法來思考這個全台灣最交通最擁擠的交流道"},{"start":724.477,"end":741.06,"text":"有沒有泰山那一方面可不可以另外再弄一個引道之前一直有這樣的提案跟提議但是好幾個方案都一直被認為不可行就是說他不符合這個道路跟交流道的設計部長可不可以再想想辦法再想看看"},{"start":742.727,"end":757.426,"text":"是,謝謝委員的鼓勵,我想五股交流道確實是一個很艱鉅的工程,因為這麼大的交通量,又要一邊通車,一邊行車,一邊要試工,那非常的不容易,因為有很多的改道等等的交通維持。"},{"start":757.927,"end":757.947,"text":"﹚張宏陸"},{"start":779.205,"end":780.426,"text":"這就是我要問的第二個問題"},{"start":803.4,"end":818.809,"text":"這個台65南向在新莊我一直主張要增加第二個出口事實上這個也都研究也都納入說預計即將要發包了希望能夠順利能夠做但是你也是一樣錢給他他怎麼做"},{"start":819.97,"end":823.932,"text":"我今天為什麼跟張宏陸委員聯合質詢一個問題就是我們有一個泰山到板橋的這個捷運那現在叫做泰板輕軌"},{"start":846.963,"end":855.142,"text":"可是我是要跟你說在一個大都市裡面經過人口這麼稠密的地方板橋跟新莊跟泰山人口加起來一百多萬"},{"start":856.676,"end":882.156,"text":"結果他是要用輕軌的方式這個是事實上引起地方上面想說如果你長遠的時間來看你不應該用這麼小的運量這是第一個問題第二個問題我們新莊的後港跟西勝地區就是南新莊的後港跟西勝十幾萬的人口沒有一條軌道運送也沒有捷運"},{"start":884.171,"end":904.184,"text":"我們的主張是在跟塔寮坑溪的交接的地方這個太阪捷運這個地方要走塔寮坑溪的路廊跟走到潭底溝最後就是走溪盛跟後港的中間最後走到監理站樹林的監理站接這個"},{"start":905.755,"end":933.41,"text":"關大樹林縣這樣可以路軌可以連接的起來而且可以服務西省跟後港新莊地區這十幾萬的人口這個案子啊新北市政府目前只有說他是後續的計畫希望交通部能不能考量我們地方十幾萬人口的需要那剛好就是在我跟蘇巧慧委員的這個選區的中間那這一個地方十幾萬人都沒有沒有任何的這個"},{"start":935.076,"end":962.146,"text":"這個軌道運輸也沒有捷運的這個服務希望是不是這一方面可以幫我們考量加強市政府如果他的動作不夠快交通部如何跟他指導如何跟他協助讓他能夠對我們這個地方的需要這一條有一個很大的好處如果能夠跟這個河流共構的話當然基礎啦他是會建在河流的上面基本上不用多少拆遷就可以把這條路可以做起來"},{"start":963.223,"end":987.92,"text":"以上這是我的主張跟建議希望院長跟部長能夠支持這個還要地方新北市政府做很多的規劃包括系統的形式新北市還在過規劃而且對一些這個路廊條件新北市好像還沒有做最後的決定西勝到這個板橋射後這一段其中當中的我這一段是後港西勝支線張宏陸那一段是"},{"start":988.84,"end":990.162,"text":"在大台北地區十幾萬的人口沒有任何的捷運可以用"},{"start":1007.464,"end":1008.104,"text":"部長跟院長,其實啊"},{"start":1031.135,"end":1031.155,"text":"﹚張宏陸﹚"},{"start":1049.801,"end":1064.076,"text":"新北市政府還給我們之前交通部拿了多少規劃設計經費的補助去了。也是我有協助爭取的。他錢都拿了。為什麼他辭職不核定?因為去年在選舉啦。"},{"start":1065.831,"end":1088.94,"text":"他不想造成選舉的,變成中央立法委員有去爭取,就是這麼簡單。所以他遲遲的在那邊拖,選舉也過了。我覺得交通部我們補助了他這麼多,而且這個從涉後到犧牲支線,那時候交通部連中央補助多少錢什麼的,全部都算出來了。"},{"start":1089.56,"end":1106.349,"text":"然後呢他的西部他用什麼車型然後路幅多少都很詳細都出來了而且新北市政府的評估他也已經都有預留這個支線未來的這個"},{"start":1108.019,"end":1125.566,"text":"通車的話,他的如何去運轉,還有包括他車輛要購買多少,其實都流有伏筆,都有了。總之就是因為政治的因素所以脫惡了。那我覺得啦,交通部我們補助的新北市有這麼多,而且這一個講白了,"},{"start":1126.326,"end":1146.931,"text":"就是政治因素遲遲他他他不那時候不想核定而已那時機已過我覺得交通部我覺得啦跟新北市政府溝通欸交通部要錢給新北市新北市竟然拒絕我覺得這個應該要大聲講出來啊啊不然新北市每天在跟你們講財化法在你們跟你們講說補助他不夠"},{"start":1147.771,"end":1176.973,"text":"那這一條交通部就之前都已經說好了錢都出來了是新北市遲遲不報公文來而已這點我們應該可以大聲講啊報告委員委員應該清楚過去所遇到的一些困境但是我們現在不論以前的困難在哪裡就盡速把它推動把它完成跟新北市做有效的這個協調那兩位委員希望納入重運量的考慮這個重點我們希望新北市也能夠在審慎評估"},{"start":1177.734,"end":1204.467,"text":"我講的中運量是指是泰山到板橋這一條要用比較大的運量至於我們的支線我就沒有那麼高的要求因為我們也不想地方要拆遷很多的既有的建築物包括人民的房子跟土地啊所以為什麼我主張這一條走塔寮根西走潭堤溝的上面因為這樣幾乎就不用去拆遷既有的這個房屋了"},{"start":1205.185,"end":1220.436,"text":"一樣啊在我們社會地區交通部規劃出來的路線也是幾乎不用拆房子啊什麼都已經出來了就只是擦心北市政府說啊這個他的一個公文而已那我覺得這一點我們要拜託部長"},{"start":1221.616,"end":1244.848,"text":"新北市一天到晚在說你不補助他什麼的那這一條我們早就要補助了是他遲遲不報公文你也要大聲說給新北市民聽啊我們板橋社會地區十幾萬人口沒有捷運這對板橋的交通啊這衝擊很大啦我覺得這一點要拜託部長啦部長你覺得勒"},{"start":1245.359,"end":1261.731,"text":"是,我想這個武泰輕軌那一直延伸到板橋可以說是另外一個環狀線的一個外環那我覺得而且他連絡好幾個既有的這個捷運可以把它串聯在一起所以我覺得他是有很好的這個"},{"start":1262.432,"end":1262.632,"text":"﹚新北市長"},{"start":1293.373,"end":1312.686,"text":"剛剛張委員講的齁我要提醒你齁他說新北市政府常常在那邊complain說中央對他的補助是少的虧待了他其實不是這樣子真實不是這樣你去給他算一算包括環狀線各個捷運線萬大處林線山陰線這些補助加起來的金額是非常大的我們是希望"},{"start":1314.093,"end":1338.644,"text":"真的有給他補助那麼多就具體的統計出來不要每天被他吃豆腐說什麼我們都沒有在照顧新北市所以這一點也是希望你們要努力的要很會做事但是也要把東西講得清清楚楚不要被他占了便宜然後他得了便宜還賣乖你部長把統計數字送給委員要參考送給我之後要讓社會大眾能夠知道"},{"start":1340.006,"end":1363.647,"text":"我們的意思是說新北市政府常常在穿我們中央政府的小鞋啦都說我們補助他沒有補助很少我覺得這個應該也要大聲講啦我們剛剛講的這個涉後跟犧牲支線這個其實都已經規劃的很詳細了就是只差他自己公文不報來而已那我剛剛已經講了什麼原因了這點"},{"start":1365.268,"end":1389.338,"text":"交通部也應該要講啊交通部本來就準備好了是你新北市政府的行政帶舵你新北市政府你是對不起新莊跟板橋的市民啊我覺得這一點應該要講啊讓新北市政府不然他都跟地方講說沒有啦交通部又沒有錢要給我們這樣子背黑鍋又是我們行政院交通部"},{"start":1390.434,"end":1405.091,"text":"謝謝委員今天有機會讓交通部來說明這個清楚。我想以後要特別注意我們已經有計畫的那拖延時間下來了一定對地方造成不便。我們應該主動去爭取說明的機會或是要求地方政府來加速配合的這個時程。"},{"start":1408.543,"end":1429.04,"text":"另外部長,我們敬老卡的點數從去年開始可以做台鐵,但現在不是全台灣每個縣市都可以做台鐵。我不知道部長你知不知道其他縣市還沒有開始的原因是什麼?"},{"start":1431.718,"end":1457.015,"text":"我知道目前已經有14個縣市有加入敬老卡搭乘台鐵的措施那其他還沒有進來的部分我想我們會再請台鐵跟這些縣市來溝通看怎麼樣讓他們知道有這樣的一個機制那可以讓他們的長輩這些縣市的長輩能夠有更優惠更好的交通工具來提供服務"},{"start":1458.64,"end":1470.489,"text":"另外部長你支不支持台鐵都可以搭了高鐵可不可以也開放敬老卡讓我們的長者也可以用點數去抵扣去搭高鐵"},{"start":1472.397,"end":1489.464,"text":"高鐵因為他的金額比較大他可能一趟或是半趟就把敬老卡的金額都用完他的意思就是這樣子啊用完就用完了剩下的就是補現金啊他們現在計程車的搭乘在地方上他也只給你50塊"},{"start":1490.998,"end":1497.864,"text":"府長錢多少是一件事情給長者方便又是一件事情這筆錢本來就是他們可以用的你如果開放的多他就可以用的多我簡單舉一個才不會剩下的到下個月就不見了你先聽我講齁"},{"start":1517.822,"end":1540.697,"text":"你說錢不夠,那我們以臺灣搭台鐵的,屏東一個月500點。部長,500點高鐵如果從屏東,他至少從高雄坐到台中應該有了吧?因為他本來就是半票啊,他坐到台中應該有了吧?剩下的他其他他自己補就好了啊。"},{"start":1541.67,"end":1561.406,"text":"對不對?我覺得這一個錢多少我覺得你只要開放人家就會用而且部長你知不知道像高雄市政府他們已經有在研擬這一個進勞卡的這一個不要每個月每個月算他是用一年來"},{"start":1562.944,"end":1562.964,"text":"﹚張宏陸"},{"start":1582.967,"end":1604.542,"text":"我們只要花一筆錢改善這個路口的那個雜票的那個設計改一下就好了所以我才會提出這一個所以我覺得部長我認為應該也可以是嘗試著去開放讓人家搭高鐵我剛講的500塊"},{"start":1607.344,"end":1626.235,"text":"人家是一個月五百塊呢?那如果人家高雄是可以累積一整年,反正他用完就沒有了啊。對不對?也政府沒有多支出一毛錢。政府的預算沒有多支出喔。對不對?那他就好使用啊。那人家高雄如果是一年的話,人家他搭兩趟"},{"start":1627.298,"end":1630.882,"text":"現在確實有一個問題就是他當月如果有節存有些縣市當月有節存他沒辦法轉到下個月繼續用"},{"start":1646.141,"end":1646.682,"text":"部長可以搭台鐵是我"},{"start":1675.875,"end":1702.348,"text":"從上一屆我努力了4年本來台鐵也是有很多想法我後來就說你就把這一個機制把它建立起來人家要的縣市就會主動加入了高鐵我認為也是一樣其實他只要改這個他驗票的這個程式沒有花多少錢你把這一個可以用的這一個機具這個把它"},{"start":1703.699,"end":1729.866,"text":"這個平台你把它用好我跟你講人家有的縣市的人人家就會主動來了那你沒有的縣市我跟你講那他自己要去承擔他的責任彼此會比較對啊彼此會比較他自己會去承擔所以我會覺得就是說讓台鐵跟高鐵都可以搭這個才對我們的長輩是一個好處沒有多花政府一毛錢只要協調高鐵"},{"start":1731.186,"end":1731.766,"text":"我希望部長能夠跟高鐵協調一下吧。"},{"start":1754.79,"end":1776.247,"text":"對啦,院長我為什麼會特別提這個,其實各縣市政府認真做的,有的進勞卡都可以去搭計程車了,也可以有的可以去租借腳踏車了,有的甚至這個那個什麼運動的中心什麼他都可以開放了,那我們中央政府我們如果基於"},{"start":1777.489,"end":1797.891,"text":"關心長者的角度我們主動去把高鐵的這一個驗票的系統我們去補助他一點錢也好讓他去建制這樣我跟你講就會有縣市可以搭了啦之前台鐵一直在講說啊怎樣怎樣我後來我生氣我說你就花一筆錢你把它用好"},{"start":1798.871,"end":1803.713,"text":"非常謝謝委員的建議雖然這涉及部分涉及到地方的自治事項跟地方政府的財政規劃但是我想交通部積極來協調這個事情"},{"start":1827.419,"end":1827.599,"text":"謝謝吳委員、張委員"}]}},{"id":"154544","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154544","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e97aac97912bf81a188412a25d0aa7d1a49908f554dcbfda07e2b2717c1df6d4f975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"16:05:36 - 16:36:19","影片長度":"00:30:43","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T16:05:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T16:36:19+08:00","duration":1843,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":409,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（16時5分）主席，麻煩請卓院長跟交通部李部長。"],["主席：卓院長、交通部李部長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員、張委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：你好。"],["李部長孟諺：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：不知道你知不知道中央有給經費做大漢溪左側堤外道路的打通？原則上大概是這個月的十幾號、快要20號的時候會辦啟用典禮，院長有收到邀請嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉，我還沒有看到確實的日期。"],["吳委員秉叡：李部長應該很清楚，因為你對新北市的事情很瞭解。這個堤外便道就是一段接一段，現在是從新莊鐵路橋到樹林山佳之間的這一段，幾乎全部都是中央的經費，那是委託新北市政府做一些工程。7月18號，現在我看到的資料是早上9點半要做啟用典禮，它沒有邀請院長，還不是沒有邀請院長而已，也沒有邀請小弟在下我。這樣子的狀況，這只是一個個案，像這個禮拜，新北市環狀捷運線幸福站旁邊的幸福停車場，經費由中央大量補助，用前瞻基礎建設的預算，是本席很努力爭取的新莊3個停車場之一，啟用典禮一樣沒有邀請立法委員，就是市政府自己辦了就算了，然後好像都無視人一樣，跟我們都沒有關係一樣。","我是在想，這樣子的狀況一直發生在我們的身上，我們很努力地在為地方爭取地方該有的這些建設跟該有的這些設施，結果只要經費給市政府，然後它完工之後，我相信它沒有通知本席，應該也沒有通知交通部吧！還是交通部有收到這個啟用典禮的邀請嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：目前我這邊沒有收到。"],["吳委員秉叡：已經辦完了啊！"],["李部長孟諺：對，沒有收到。"],["吳委員秉叡：那個停車場的啟用典禮已經辦完了，沒有收到邀請。所以很多我們中央的預算，補助地方是應該，給地方錢，讓地方可以好好地建設，當然是福國利民，對新莊有很大的幫助。問題是，沒有人會講說這是中央盡了多少的努力、中央的民意代表盡了多少的努力，全部都被一刀切，因為你的工程委託它辦之後，它自己完工之後，全部都是它自己的宣傳，全部都它的功勞，跟我們都沒有關係一樣，這樣的狀況一再地發生啦！我舉的這幾個例子只是聽得到的。所以我是在想，這中間是出了什麼問題，交通部給錢之後就算了嗎？中央給錢之後就算了嗎？沒有跟它講要啟用的時候，或是假設要辦一個動工典禮，做這些典禮儀式的時候都不用通知、都不用邀請的？還是你們這一方面都沒有在列管、都沒有在要求？就是錢給地方，它高興什麼時候辦就什麼時候辦，完工的時候也不用通知我們，辦得怎麼樣我們也都不知道，如果是這樣的話，部長覺得你可以接受嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：我想這個是應該基於互相尊重，地方應該也要通知我們，要告訴我們相關重要的啟用或者動工……"],["吳委員秉叡：對，如果是大筆的錢，動輒幾十億的經費，中央補助了，你好歹要啟用的時候也通知一聲，中央如果跟你表達說：對不起，我那天有重要的公務，所以我沒辦法去，我派一個代表去，那OK啊，問題是它都不告訴你欸！像我剛剛講的這個東西，已經都辦完了，你也都不知道。"],["李部長孟諺：然後協助爭取經費的委員也應該要受邀。"],["吳委員秉叡：它有邀請新北市議員去啦，但新北市議員回來跟我說，會中全部都是講是新北市政府做的，它也不去講說中央補助了多少錢、中央的民意代表爭取了多少錢，然後把所有的功勞全部都歸給地方，還歸給地方特定的議員，我覺得……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，行政院很感謝委員對地方各種建設的爭取，我想以後不管是交通部還是各個部會，我們把錢補助給地方之後，地方到底有沒有把事情做好，我們在過程跟結果都要再進一步地去瞭解，同時在它已經落成之後，也一定要跟過去關心的委員們做一個報告，一起來驗收或者一起來參與這整個過程的結果。"],["吳委員秉叡：好。"],["張委員宏陸：院長跟部長，其實中央補助的部分，像我們現在也有很多人行道的改善工程，也都是中央補助的，其實地方拿到錢之後，它擅自變更原來的設計……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不可以。"],["張委員宏陸：我們中央也管不到、管不著欸！我之前質詢也有提到，這種問題中央應該要有一個管控的機制，不然你錢給它，它擅自又變更設計，到時候好的都是它，結果被罵的時候說是中央的錢、是中央的，我覺得我們當了很多冤大頭，我覺得這種事情應該要像院長講的，要有一個管控的機制。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我們來改進。"],["張委員宏陸：不然我會覺得行政院在全臺灣人行道的安全、什麼的，跟交通都有關的，如果我們都沒有去做一個管控的話，好處不會留到行政院，我們要的也不是好處，但是它的變更設計跟原來的設計不同，這中間就是會有問題，而且為什麼要變更設計？它變更設計，補助單位竟然都沒有置喙的餘地，我覺得這個法令我們可能要修改一下、要去瞭解一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，這樣不行。我們現在對於路口的改善，到年底有一個相當明確的計畫，請交通部、內政部，還有交通部的公路總局，一定要落實，針對剛剛委員所說的這樣的情況，我們來改進這個事實。"],["吳委員秉叡：院長，我就是要跟你講，這個問題不是只有在交通方面，其實在社會福利方面也是。TPASS在北臺灣，從桃園一直到基隆1,200塊，只要那幾項的公共運輸都吃到飽，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：以前太多使用者不知道這筆錢是中央補助的，因為他都以為這是地方政府的政策，我舉這樣的例子是要跟你說，我們很認真在做，這是對的，但是有時候「稻仔尾」被割走了，你也好歹反映一下，因為這會影響到最後它會怎麼宣傳，選舉的時候會講說我們的民意代表都沒有在做事，它最後的結論就是這樣啊！"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，現在TPASS的卡，我們都有要求上面要印製這個是行政院的。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，我知道，那是因為這件事情有被反映了，之後才開始這樣做。在這之前還有一些，譬如我們發那個6,000塊，直接就說是行政院入帳，讓你的帳戶上面看得到。是誰做的，我們很清楚啦，但我們清楚，民眾不一定清楚。像我舉的這個例子，新莊現在除了西盛9里之外，所有中央民意代表的區域立委就是我，中央補助的費用我不敢說完全都是我爭取的，但大部分是我爭取的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是它從來就不講，最後選舉的時候就用黨派的意見告訴你說，新莊的立委都沒有在做事，這個對我們是非常的不公道，同樣地，它可以這樣講，言下之意是你中央政府也都沒有在做事，補助的錢變成白送給它了，我覺得這是要不得的，我們實事求是，本來中華民國是一個團隊，大家一起做事，誰做的就說誰做的，誰出多少就誰出多少，誰努力了什麼就努力了什麼，這樣子才有公道啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，中央地方一體，但權責還是要分明……"],["吳委員秉叡：但是我今天還是要講……"],["卓院長榮泰：希望過去委員爭取的辛苦，我們在事情完成的時候，要讓大家一起來審視這個結果的發生。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我的意思是說如果你有大量款項補助的時候，要求這些單位要追蹤啦！而不是它拿去了、完成了，然後就跟我們沒有關係了，不可以這個樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：像我剛剛講的那個堤外便道的連接，全部的費用99%以上都是中央出的，結果它7月18號早上9點半要辦啟用典禮，你沒有接到通知啊！我也沒有接到邀請啦！地方上的人講說：「你看，市政府又來幫我們做了一個這麼偉大的建設。」這個建設當初蘇貞昌院長有行文給新北市政府，新北市政府說交通上不是最優先，它不出錢，所以最後百分之百變成我們是中央政府出錢耶！結果中央政府全部出錢之後，現在啟用典禮它來辦，新北市政府來辦，院也沒有邀請、中央民意代表也沒有邀請，這個完全是……在我看來這百分之百是「斬稻仔尾」的行為嘛！我們這麼努力爭取了，多少年前就開始在講，然後行政院蘇貞昌院長在最後的時候問它說，新北市政府願不願意做這條路，要不要大家來協調怎麼支出經費的時候，它說不是優先的交通建設項目，一毛錢都不出耶！這個張宏陸委員也可以作證，事實上就是這樣啊！結果它7月16號辦啟用典禮了，完全不通知我們，我現在回到……","因為我是地方選出的民意代表，我們仍然還是要講地方，有幾個事情做得不錯，希望繼續能加強的，第一個就是五股交流道的改善，它現在的工程有超出進度，進度是二十六點多，但它現在已經進行到三十點多了，希望交通部能夠繼續加油，這個要到116年4月完工，可是如果能夠提早完工對地方是莫大的功德，這件事情做得很好。但是塭仔圳重劃區土地再過兩年馬上就會分發下來，就開始建設，人口又會增加非常的多，所以五股交流道改善了一部分，但是問題絕對會繼續不斷，我們應該要想辦法來思考這個全臺灣交通最擁擠的交流道，泰山那一方面可不可以另外再弄一個引道？之前一直有這樣的提案跟提議，但是好幾個方案都一直被認為不可行，就是說它不符合道路跟交流道的設計，部長可不可以再想想辦法，再想看看？"],["李部長孟諺：是，謝謝委員的鼓勵，我想五股交流道確實是一個很艱鉅的工程，因為這麼大的交通量，又要一邊通車、一邊行車、一邊施工，非常的不容易，因為有很多的改道等等的交通維持，這個部分我們也會再請高公局設法看怎麼樣讓這個工進能夠更順利。同時因為五股交流道在施工，林口交流道也在增加匝道，這兩個可以說是全國排名前兩名、前三名交通量的交流道，怎麼樣讓這個部分的改善能夠更加及早來服務民眾。剛剛提的這個建議，有沒有分散交流道車流的方案，我們請高公局再來想辦法。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，第二個是……"],["李部長孟諺：因為塭仔圳重劃通了以後，我想五股的臺65，就是這個快速道路也會增加很多的量，那個部分的匝道也希望趕快來進行。"],["吳委員秉叡：這就是我要問的第二個問題，臺65南向，我一直主張在新莊要增加第二個出口，事實上這個也都研究納入、預計即將要發包了，希望能夠順利做，但是你也是一樣錢給它，但它怎麼做，我是說要盯緊，好不好？協調上要盯緊……"],["李部長孟諺：這個匝道因為要環差，所以需要一些環境差異評估的時間。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是我希望能夠儘量幫我們看緊那個時程，因為時間對我們來講就是非常大的壓力。再來，我今天為什麼跟張宏陸委員聯合質詢，問題就是我們有一個泰山到板橋的捷運，現在叫做泰板輕軌。可是我是要跟你說，在一個大都市裡面，經過人口這麼稠密的地方，板橋、新莊跟泰山人口加起來一百多萬耶！結果它是要用輕軌的方式，這也引起地方上……如果以長遠時間來看，不應該用這麼小的運量，這是第一個問題。第二個問題，新莊後港跟西盛地區，就是南新莊後港跟西盛有十幾萬人口，卻沒有一條軌道運送，也沒有捷運。我的主張是在塔寮坑溪交接的地方，就是泰板捷運走塔寮坑溪的路廊到潭底溝，最後走西盛跟後港的中間，到樹林監理站接萬大樹林線，這樣路軌可以連接起來，而且可以服務西盛跟後港、新莊地區這十幾萬的人口。","對這個案子，目前新北市政府只說是後續計畫，交通部能不能考量我們地方十幾萬人口的需要？那剛好在我跟蘇巧慧委員的選區中間。這地方十幾萬人沒有任何的軌道運輸，也沒有捷運的服務，希望是不是在這方面可以幫考量、加強？如果市政府動作不夠快的話，就看交通部如何指導、如何協助，讓它瞭解我們地方的需要。其實這樣做有一個很大的好處，如果基礎建在河流上，能夠跟河流共構的話，基本上不用拆遷多少戶，就可以把這條路做起來。以上是我的主張跟建議，希望院長跟部長能夠支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：這還要新北市政府做很多規劃，包括系統的形式，新北市還在做規劃。而且對於路廊條件，新北市好像還沒有做最後決定，也就是西盛到板橋社後這段，因為當中……"],["吳委員秉叡：我這段是後港西盛支線，張宏陸那段是社後支線，為什麼會聯合質詢？就是為了這個！至少新莊這部分拜託院長跟部長給我們支持，如果新北市政府的動作比較慢的話，應該要給它鼓勵。在大臺北地區竟然有十幾萬人口沒有任何捷運可以用？不可思議啊！在現在的社會裡，我覺得不可思議！"],["卓院長榮泰：我請交通部未來跟新北市協商的時候，會把兩位委員的意見放進來。也就是現在的人口量跟未來的發展趨勢，以及整個地方的需要。還有，新北市沒有把路廊的路段地點定出來，也趕快請新北市加速工作。"],["張委員宏陸：部長、院長，其實社后支線跟西盛支線是可以串聯在一起的，中間都不用轉車，就可以一直從我們板橋到新莊監理所。那時候交通部的評估是可行的，新北市政府之前還跟交通部拿了多少規劃設計經費補助？這也是我協助爭取的，它錢都拿了，為什麼遲遲不核定？因為去年在選舉，它不想讓立法委員去幫忙爭取，就是這麼簡單，所以它遲遲在那邊拖！選舉也過了，交通部也補助他這麼多！其實從社後到西盛支線，交通部連中央補助多少錢什麼的，全部都算出來了，甚至用什麼車型、路幅多少，都很詳細地規劃出來了。新北市政府的評估也有預留這條支線未來通車時，如何運轉、包括車輛要購買多少，其實都留有伏筆，都有了。總之，就是因為政治因素所以拖了！我覺得交通部補助新北市這麼多，但是講白了，就是因為政治因素，所以它那時候遲遲不想核定！現在時機已過，我覺得交通部要跟新北市政府溝通，交通部要把錢給新北市，新北市竟然拒絕？我覺得這點應該要大聲講出來，不然新北市每天在跟你們講財劃法，在跟你們說補助不夠？這一條是交通部之前就已經說好了，錢都出來了，是新北市遲遲不報公文來，這點我們應該可以大聲講啊！部長？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，委員應該清楚過去所遇到的一些困境，我們現在不論以前的困難在哪裡，就是儘速把它推動、把它完成，跟新北市做有效的協調。兩位委員希望納入中運量考慮的這個重點，我們希望新北市也能夠再審慎評估。"],["張委員宏陸：他講的不是這個。"],["吳委員秉叡：我講的中運量是指泰山到板橋這條要用比較大的運量，至於我們的支線，我就沒有這麼高的要求……"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為我們也不想地方要拆遷很多的既有建築物，包括人民的房子跟土地啊，所以為什麼我主張這條要走塔寮坑溪、走潭底溝的上面，因為這樣幾乎就不用去拆遷既有的房屋了。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["張委員宏陸：一樣啊，在我們社後地區，交通部規劃出來的路線也是幾乎不用拆房子，什麼都已經出來了，就只差新北市政府的公文而已，我覺得這點要拜託部長，新北市一天到晚說你不補助它什麼的，這條我們早就有補助了，是它遲遲不報公文，你也要大聲說給新北市民聽啊！"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我們板橋社後地區十幾萬人口沒有捷運，這對板橋的交通衝擊很大啦！我覺得這點要拜託部長，部長，你覺得呢？"],["李部長孟諺：是，我想五泰輕軌一直延伸到板橋可以說是另外一個環狀線的外環，而且它聯絡好幾個既有的捷運，可以把它們串連在一起，所以我覺得它是有很好的轉乘跟接駁效應。現在怎麼樣針對延伸線及支線可以讓新北市趕快來啟動相關的可行性規劃，這個我們來協調，讓它趕快把這個規劃送來核定。","第二個就是現在是採輕軌，是不是考慮用中運量才能滿足未來的運量，我們會再詳細的做運量的評估。"],["吳委員秉叡：剛剛張委員講的，我要提醒你，他說新北市政府常常在complain說中央對它的補助是少的、虧待了它，其實不是這樣子，真實不是這樣！你去算一算，各個捷運線，包括環狀線、萬大樹林線、三鶯線這些補助加起來的金額是非常大的，我們是希望真正有補助這麼多就要具體統計出來，不要每天被它吃豆腐，說我們都沒有照顧新北市，這一點也是希望你們要努力，要很會做事，也要把東西講得清清楚楚，不要被它佔了便宜，然後讓它得了便宜還賣乖！"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長把統計數字送給委員做參考。"],["吳委員秉叡：送給我之外，要讓社會大眾能夠知道啦！"],["張委員宏陸：我們的意思是說，新北市政府常常在給我們中央政府穿小鞋，說我們沒有補助或補助很少，我覺得這個應該也要大聲講，我們剛講的社後跟西盛支線，其實都已經規劃得很詳細了，就只差他們自己不把公文報上來而已，我剛剛已經講了是什麼原因，這點交通部也應該要講啊！交通部本來就準備好了，是新北市政府行政怠惰，是新北市政府對不起新莊跟板橋的市民啊！我覺得這一點你應該要講啊！不然它都跟地方講「沒有啦！交通部又沒有錢要給我們！」這樣子在揹黑鍋的又是我們行政院、交通部耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員今天給機會讓交通部來說明清楚，我想以後要特別注意，我們已經有計畫的，時間拖延下來了，一定會對地方造成不便，我們應該主動爭取說明的機會，或是要求地方政府加速配合的時程。"],["張委員宏陸：好。","另外要跟部長討論的是，我們的敬老卡點數從去年開始可以搭乘臺鐵，但是現在不是全臺灣每一個縣市都可以用敬老卡的點數搭乘臺鐵，我不知道部長知不知道其他縣市還沒有開始的原因是什麼？"],["李部長孟諺：我知道目前已經有14個縣市有加入敬老卡搭乘臺鐵的措施，其他還沒有進來的部分，我想我們會再請臺鐵跟這些縣市溝通，讓他們知道有這樣的機制，可以讓這些縣市的長輩能夠有更優惠、更好的交通工具來提供服務。"],["張委員宏陸：另外，部長，你支不支持，既然臺鐵都可以搭了，高鐵可不可以也開放敬老卡，讓我們的長者也可以用點數抵扣去搭高鐵，你支不支持？"],["李部長孟諺：高鐵的部分，因為它的金額比較大，可能一趟或者是半趟就把敬老卡的金額都用完。"],["吳委員秉叡：他的意思就是這樣子，用完就用完了，剩下的就去補現金。"],["張委員宏陸：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在搭乘計程車的部分，地方上也只給你50塊，那計程車起跳就要65塊了，50塊哪夠？所以長者坐計程車，除了敬老卡的金額之外，另外還要再付錢，現在地方是這樣操作。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，錢多少是一件事情，給長者方便又是另一件事情，這筆錢本來就是他們可以用的，你如果開放的多，他就可以用的多。我簡單舉一個……"],["李部長孟諺：才不會剩下的，到下個月就不見了。"],["張委員宏陸：你先聽我講。你說錢不夠，那我們以搭臺鐵的部分為例，屏東一個月有500點，部長，500點如果要搭高鐵，至少從高雄坐到臺中應該夠了吧，因為長者本來就是半票，他坐到臺中應該夠了吧，剩下不足的他自己補就好了，對不對？我覺得錢多少這不是問題，你只要開放，人家就會用。","而且，部長，你知不知道像高雄市政府，他們已經在研擬敬老卡的金額不要每個月每個月結算，而是用一年來結算。因為我們政府的預算本來就是編一年，地方議會也都通過了這筆預算，你都通過一年的預算了，還每個月去結算，讓人家很不好使用。高雄市政府有在研擬這個案子，我不知道部長你知不知道。其實如果這樣子可以做的話，我們只要花一筆錢改善入口的……"],["李部長孟諺：檢票口。"],["張委員宏陸：驗票閘門的設計改一下就好了，所以我才會提出這個建議，部長，我認為應該也可以嘗試著去開放讓人家搭高鐵。我剛剛講的500塊，人家是一個月500塊，如果高雄是可以累積一整年，反正他用完就沒有了，對不對？政府沒有多支出一毛錢，政府的預算沒有多支出，對不對？但是民眾就很好使用，那高雄如果是一年的話，人家他搭兩趟高鐵，搭完就沒了，我覺得政府應該以長者的角度去看這件事情，我不知道部長可不可以研議一下？"],["李部長孟諺：是。現在確實有一個問題，就是他當月如果有結存，有些縣市當月有結存，他沒辦法轉到下個月繼續用，就是不能累積，等於沒有搭完的就浪費掉，所以，如果多一些搭乘的工具，譬如說臺鐵，如果高鐵也可以的話，可能這種沒有搭完賸餘金額就不見的狀況會減少。臺鐵的部分我們優先來處理，高鐵的部分，我們要跟高鐵公司做溝通。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，可以搭臺鐵是我從上一屆開始倡議，我努力了四年，本來臺鐵也是有很多想法，我後來就說，你就把這個機制建立起來，要的縣市就會主動加入了，高鐵我認為也是一樣。其實它只要改驗票的程式，不用花多少錢，你把可以用的機具、平臺建置好，我跟你講，有的縣市就會主動加入了，沒有加入的縣市，我跟你講，它自己要去承擔它的責任。"],["李部長孟諺：彼此會比較嘛。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，彼此會比較，它自己會去承擔。所以我會覺得讓臺鐵跟高鐵都可以搭，這樣對我們的長輩才是好處，而且沒有多花政府一毛錢，只要協調高鐵去改它的程式而已，沒有花多少錢，我希望部長能夠跟高鐵協調一下吧。"],["李部長孟諺：好，這個部分我們來協調。"],["卓院長榮泰：我很願意站在委員的立場為長輩來設想，提高他們的活動力，所以這部分我們會朝多元而且靈活運用的方向，跟相關的單位來做協調，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！院長，我為什麼會特別提這個？其實各縣市政府認真做的，有的都可以用敬老卡去搭計程車了，有的可以去租借腳踏車了，有的甚至運動中心都可以開放使用了，我們中央政府如果基於關心長者的角度，主動對高鐵的驗票系統去補助一點錢也好，讓它去建置，我跟你講，就會有縣市可以搭了！之前臺鐵一直在講怎樣、怎樣，我後來生氣了，我說你就花一筆錢把它弄好，你看有沒有人來搭，所以現在是不是14個縣市有了？之後會有越來越多的縣市啊！我為什麼要強調這個？高鐵也是一樣的道理啦！你只要做了，就會有縣市讓他可以搭了，這樣子才是中央政府有去關心我們長者啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝委員的建議，雖然這有部分涉及到地方的自治事項跟地方政府的財政規劃，但是我想交通部會積極來協調這個事情。"],["張委員宏陸：不，院長，我知道這是地方政府的，但是高鐵有沒有建置這個系統，這是我們中央政府的權責，是我們中央政府的責任啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們積極來協調這個事情。"],["李部長孟諺：讓他多幾個選項。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝吳委員、張委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝兩位委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（16時36分）","繼續開會（16時47分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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張委員好您好 委員好不知道你知不知道我們中央有給經費做這個大漢溪這個左側的這個年外道路提外道路的打通原則上是大概是這個月的10幾號快要20號的時候會辦這個啟用典禮院長有受到邀請嗎抱歉我還沒有看到現時的日期"},{"start":64.943,"end":91.072,"text":"那李部長應該很清楚因為你對台北縣的事情新北市的事情很了解這個題外變道就一段接一段現在就是從新莊的這個鐵路橋到樹林的三家之間這一段幾乎全部都是中央的經費那是委託新北市政府做一些工程7月18號現在我看到的資料是早上9點半"},{"start":92.756,"end":94.778,"text":"新北市環狀捷運線幸福站旁邊的這個幸福停車場"},{"start":119.317,"end":142.975,"text":"經費由中央大量補助用前瞻基礎預算的建設的預算是本席很努力的爭取三個停車場之一新莊的三個停車場之一啟用典禮一樣沒有邀請立法委員市政府就自己辦了就算了然後好像我們都是無視人一樣根本都沒有關係一樣"},{"start":145.165,"end":174.351,"text":"我是在想說這樣子的狀況一直發生在我們的身上啊我們到底是我們很努力的在為地方爭取地方該有的這些建設跟該有的這些設施結果只要經費給他給市政府然後他完工之後我相信他沒有通知本席應該也沒有通知交通部吧還是交通部有收到這個啟用典禮的邀請嗎目前我這邊沒有收到已經報完啊對沒有收到"},{"start":175.643,"end":201.47,"text":"那個停車場的啟用點已經辦完了沒有收到邀請所以很多我們中央的預算補助地方是應該給地方錢讓地方有可以好好的建設當然是福國利民對我們新莊有很大的幫助問題是沒有人會講說這是中央進了多少努力中央的民意代表進了多少的努力"},{"start":202.458,"end":215.356,"text":"全部都被一刀切因為你的工程委託他辦之後他自己完工之後全部都是他自己的宣傳全部都他的功勞跟我們都沒有關係一樣這樣的狀況一再的發生"},{"start":218.629,"end":243.036,"text":"我舉的這幾個例子只是聽得到了所以我是在想說這中間是出了什麼問題交通部給錢之後就算了嗎中央給錢之後就算了嗎沒有跟他講說你啟用的時候或是說你要如果假設你要辦一個動工典禮做這些典禮儀式的時候都不用通知都不用邀請了還是你們這一方面都沒有在列管都沒有在沒有在要求"},{"start":243.871,"end":244.752,"text":"對,如果是大筆的錢動輒幾十億的經費那中央補助了"},{"start":271.974,"end":297.029,"text":"你好歹要啟用的時候你通知一聲那中央如果說跟你表達說對不起我那天有重要的公務所以我沒辦法去我派一個代表去那OK啊問題是他不告訴你捏像我剛剛講這個東西已經都辦完了你也不知道然後協助爭取經費的委員也應該有邀請新北市議員去啦那新北市議員回來跟我講說會中全部都是講新北市政府做的"},{"start":298.766,"end":308.022,"text":"他也不去講說中央補助了多少錢中央的民意代表爭取了多少錢然後把所有的功勞全部都歸給地方還給歸給地方特定的議員"},{"start":310.246,"end":310.406,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":340.016,"end":362.272,"text":"議員長跟部長,其實像中央補助,像我們現在也有很多人行道的改善工程,也都是中央的。其實地方他拿到錢之後,他擅自變更原來的設計。我們中央也管不著。我之前質詢也就是說我們這種問題,中央應該要一個管控的機制。"},{"start":363.2,"end":386.169,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":386.169,"end":406.203,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡"},{"start":406.912,"end":435.615,"text":"為什麼要變更設計而且他變更設計補助單位竟然都沒有智慧的餘地我覺得這個法令可能我們要修改一下要去了解一下好這樣不行請這個交通部還有內政部還有交通部的公路總局我們現在對於路口的改善會有一個到年底有一個相當明確的計劃一定要落實剛剛委員所說的這樣的情況我們來改進這個事實院長我覺得要跟你講這個不是只有在交通方面其實在社會福利方面也是T-PASS"},{"start":436.758,"end":461.005,"text":"在北臺灣從桃園一直到基隆一千兩百塊只要那幾項的公共運輸都吃到飽對不對以前沒有太多使用者不知道這錢是中央補助的因為他都以為這是地方政府的政策那我舉這樣的例子是要跟你講說我們很多人在做這是對啦但是有時候在外面被掛了"},{"start":465.777,"end":474.401,"text":"你也好歹反應一下因為這會影響到最後他為什麼宣傳選舉的時候講說我們的民意代表都沒有在做事啊他最後的結論就是這樣啊"},{"start":479.022,"end":508.265,"text":"各位報告現在那個TPAS的那個卡我們都有要求上面要有一個印製這個是行政院是我知道那是因為後面有被反映的這個事情之後才開始這樣做嘛那在之前還有一些譬如說我們發那個六千塊直接就是說行政院入帳讓你的帳戶上面看得到誰做的是誰做的我們清楚啦我們清楚民眾不一定清楚所以像我舉這個例子"},{"start":509.252,"end":530.28,"text":"新莊現在除了西順九里之外,所有的中央民意代表、區議員就是我啊。那中央補助的費用,我不敢說完全都是我爭取的,但大部分是我爭取的啊。但是他從來就不講。最後選舉的時候用黨派的意見,就告訴你說新莊的立委都沒有在做事。"},{"start":532.297,"end":557.811,"text":"這個對我們是非常的不公道那同樣的他可以這樣講說同樣的言下之意是你中央政府也都沒有在做事補助的錢變成白送給他了那我覺得這是要不得我們實事求是本來大家是一個中華民國是一個團隊大家一起做事誰做的就說誰做的誰出多少就誰出多少誰努力了什麼就努力了什麼"},{"start":559.326,"end":566.551,"text":"所以我的意思是說如果你有大量款項的補助的時候要求這些單位要追蹤啦而不是他拿去了完成了然後就跟我們沒有關係了拿去了就跟我們沒有關係了不可以這個樣子"},{"start":586.195,"end":614.983,"text":"像我剛剛講的那個題外變道的連接全部的費用99%以上都是中央出的就他7月18日早上9點半要辦啟用典禮你沒有接到通知啊我也沒有接到邀請啊地方上的人講說你看市政府又來幫我們做了一個這麼偉大的建設這個建設當初蘇貞昌院長有新聞給新北市政府新北市政府說交通上不是最優先所以他不出錢"},{"start":616.403,"end":630.791,"text":"所以最後百分之百變成我們是中央政府出錢的結果中央政府全部出錢之後現在啟用典禮他來辦新北市政府來辦院也沒有邀請中央民意代表也沒有邀請這個完全是我看這百分之百真的在我的眼前我們這麼努力爭取了幾、多少年前就開始在講"},{"start":644.465,"end":665.514,"text":"然後行政院最後在蘇貞昌院長的時候問他說新北市政府願不願意做這條路要不要來大家來協調要怎麼開要支出經費的時候他跟你講說不是優先的交通建設項目他一毛錢都不出欸這個張宏路委員也可以作證啊事實上就是這樣啊結果他7月16號辦啟用典禮了他完全不通知我們"},{"start":667.978,"end":697.978,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":699.299,"end":723.676,"text":"這件事情做得很好但是溫子郡從化學區馬上土地再過兩年就分發下來就開始建設人口又會增加非常的多了所以五股交流道改善了一部分問題是絕對問題會繼續不斷我們應該要想辦法來思考這個全台灣最交通最擁擠的交流道"},{"start":724.477,"end":741.06,"text":"有沒有泰山那一方面可不可以另外再弄一個引道之前一直有這樣的提案跟提議但是好幾個方案都一直被認為不可行就是說他不符合這個道路跟交流道的設計部長可不可以再想想辦法再想看看"},{"start":742.727,"end":757.426,"text":"是,謝謝委員的鼓勵,我想五股交流道確實是一個很艱鉅的工程,因為這麼大的交通量又要一邊通車,一邊行車,一邊要試工,那非常的不容易,因為有很多的改道等等的交通維持。"},{"start":757.927,"end":778.865,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":779.205,"end":780.426,"text":"這就是我要問的第二個問題"},{"start":803.4,"end":818.809,"text":"這個台65南向在新莊我一直主張要增加第二個出口事實上這個也都研究也都納入預計即將要發包希望能夠順利能夠做但是你也是一樣錢給他他怎麼做"},{"start":819.79,"end":824.773,"text":"我希望能夠盡量幫我們看緊那個時程因為時間就是對我們來講非常大的壓力再來我今天為什麼跟張宏路委員聯合質詢一個問題就是我們有一個泰山到板橋的這個捷運那現在叫做泰板輕軌"},{"start":846.963,"end":855.142,"text":"可是我是要跟你說在一個大都市裡面經過人口這麼稠密的地方板橋跟新莊跟泰山人口加起來一百多萬"},{"start":856.676,"end":882.156,"text":"結果他是要用輕軌的方式這個是事實上引起地方上面想說如果你長遠的時間來看你不應該用這麼小的運量這是第一個問題第二個問題我們新莊的後港跟西勝地區就是南新莊的後港跟西勝十幾萬的人口沒有一條軌道運送也沒有捷運"},{"start":883.37,"end":905.265,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":905.555,"end":934.411,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":935.076,"end":962.146,"text":"這個軌道運輸也沒有捷運的這個服務希望是不是這一方面可以幫我們考量加強市政府如果他的動作不夠快交通部如何跟他指導如何跟他協助讓他能夠對我們這個地方的需要這一條有一個很大的好處如果能夠跟這個河流共構的話當然基礎啦他是會建在河流的上面基本上不用多少拆遷就可以把這條路可以做起來"},{"start":963.223,"end":987.92,"text":"以上這是我的主張跟建議希望院長跟部長能夠支持這個還要地方新北市政府做很多的規劃包括系統的形式新北市還在過規劃而且對一些這個路廊條件新北市好像還沒有做最後的決定西勝到這個板橋射後這一段其中當中的我這一段是後港西勝支線張豪路那一段是"},{"start":988.84,"end":990.162,"text":"在大台北地區十幾萬的人口沒有任何的捷運可以用"},{"start":1007.464,"end":1008.104,"text":"部長跟院長,其實啊"},{"start":1031.135,"end":1049.292,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":1049.801,"end":1063.976,"text":"新北市政府還給我們之前交通部拿了多少規劃設計經費的補助去,也是我有協助爭取的,他錢都拿了,為什麼他辭職不核定,因為去年在選舉,"},{"start":1065.831,"end":1088.94,"text":"他不想造成選舉的變成中央立法委員有去爭取就是這麼簡單所以他遲遲的在那邊拖選舉也過了我覺得交通部我們補助了他這麼多而且這個從澀後到西勝支線那時候交通部連中央補助多少錢什麼的全部都算出來了"},{"start":1089.48,"end":1107.329,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡"},{"start":1107.619,"end":1126.186,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡"},{"start":1126.326,"end":1146.931,"text":"就是政治因素遲遲他他他不那時候不想核定而已那時機已過我覺得交通部我覺得啦跟新北市政府溝通欸交通部要錢給新北市新北市竟然拒絕我覺得這個應該要大聲講出來啊啊不然新北市每天在跟你們講財化法在你們跟你們講說補助他不夠"},{"start":1147.771,"end":1176.973,"text":"那這一條交通部就之前都已經說好了錢都出來了是新北市遲遲不報公文來而已這點我們應該可以大聲講啊報告委員委員應該清楚過去所遇到的一些困境但是我們現在不論以前的困難在哪裡就盡速把它推動把它完成跟新北市做有效的這個協調那兩位委員希望納入重運量的考慮這個重點我們希望新北市也能夠在審慎評估"},{"start":1177.734,"end":1204.467,"text":"我講的中運量是指是泰山到板橋這一條要用比較大的運量至於我們的支線我就沒有那麼高的要求因為我們也不想地方要拆遷很多的既有的建築物包括人民的房子跟土地啊所以為什麼我主張這一條走塔寮根溪走潭堤溝的上面因為這樣幾乎就不用去拆遷既有的這個房屋了"},{"start":1205.145,"end":1221.357,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":1221.616,"end":1244.848,"text":"新北市一天到晚在說你不補助他什麼的那這一條我們早就要補助了是他遲遲不報公文你也要大聲說給新北市民聽啊我們板橋社會地區十幾萬人口沒有捷運這對板橋的交通啊這衝擊很大啦我覺得這一點要拜託部長啦部長你覺得勒"},{"start":1245.359,"end":1261.731,"text":"是,我想這個武泰輕軌那一直延伸到板橋可以說是另外一個環狀線的一個外環那我覺得而且他連絡好幾個既有的這個捷運可以把它串聯在一起所以我覺得他是有很好的這個"},{"start":1262.432,"end":1292.432,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":1293.373,"end":1312.686,"text":"剛剛張委員講的齁我要提醒你齁他說新北市政府常常在那邊complain說中央對他的補助是少的虧待了他其實不是這樣子真實不是這樣你去給他算一算包括環狀線各個捷運線萬大處林線山陰線這些補助加起來的金額是非常大的我們是希望"},{"start":1314.093,"end":1338.644,"text":"真的有給他補助那麼多就具體的統計出來不要每天被他吃豆腐說什麼我們都沒有在照顧新北市所以這一點也是希望你們要努力的要很會做事但是也要把東西講得清清楚楚不要被他占了便宜然後他得了便宜還賣乖你部長把統計數字送給委員要參考送給我之後要讓社會大眾能夠知道"},{"start":1340.006,"end":1363.647,"text":"我們的意思是說新北市政府常常在穿我們中央政府的小鞋都說我們補助他沒有補助很少我覺得這個應該也要大聲講我們剛剛講的這個事後跟犧牲支線這個其實都已經規劃得很詳細了就是只差他自己公文不報來而已那我剛剛已經講了什麼原因了這點"},{"start":1365.268,"end":1389.338,"text":"交通部也應該要講啊交通部本來就準備好了是你新北市政府的行政帶舵你新北市政府你是對不起新莊跟板橋的市民啊我覺得這一點應該要講啊讓新北市政府不然他都跟地方講說沒有啦交通部又沒有錢要給我們這樣子背黑鍋又是我們行政院交通部"},{"start":1390.434,"end":1405.091,"text":"謝謝委員今天有機會讓交通部來說明這個清楚,我想以後要特別注意,我們已經有計畫的,那拖延時間下來了,一定對地方造成不便,我們應該主動去爭取說明的機會,或是要求地方政府來加速配合的這個時程。"},{"start":1408.543,"end":1429.04,"text":"另外部長,我們敬老卡的點數從去年開始可以做台鐵,但現在不是全台灣每個縣市都可以做台鐵。我不知道部長你知不知道其他縣市還沒有開始的原因是什麼?"},{"start":1431.718,"end":1457.015,"text":"我知道目前已經有14個縣市有加入敬老卡搭乘台鐵的措施那其他還沒有進來的部分我想我們會再請台鐵跟這些縣市來溝通看怎麼樣讓他們知道有這樣的一個機制那可以讓他們的長輩這些縣市的長輩能夠有更優惠更好的交通工具來提供服務"},{"start":1458.64,"end":1470.489,"text":"另外部長你支不支持台鐵都可以搭了高鐵可不可以也開放敬老卡讓我們的長者也可以用點數去抵扣去搭高鐵"},{"start":1472.397,"end":1489.464,"text":"高鐵因為他的金額比較大他可能一趟或是半趟就把敬老卡的金額都用完他的意思就是這樣子啊用完就用完了剩下的就是補現金啊他們現在計程車的搭乘在地方上他也只給你50塊"},{"start":1490.998,"end":1497.864,"text":"府長,錢多少是一件事情。給長者方便又是一件事情。這筆錢本來就是他們可以用的。你如果開放得多,他就可以用得多。我簡單舉一個...才不會剩下的到下個月就不見了。不不,你先聽我講齁。"},{"start":1517.822,"end":1540.697,"text":"你說錢不夠,那我們以臺灣搭台鐵的,屏東一個月500點。部長,500點高鐵如果從屏東,他至少從高雄坐到台中應該有了吧?因為他本來就是半票啊,他坐到台中應該有了吧?剩下的他其他他自己補就好了啊。"},{"start":1541.51,"end":1562.227,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉"},{"start":1562.944,"end":1582.517,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":1582.967,"end":1604.542,"text":"我們只要花一筆錢改善這個路口的那個雜票的那個設計改一下就好了所以我才會提出這個所以我覺得部長我認為啦應該也可以是嘗試著去開放讓人家搭高鐵我剛講的500塊"},{"start":1607.244,"end":1627.176,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉"},{"start":1627.298,"end":1630.882,"text":"現在確實有一個問題就是他當月如果有節存有些縣市當月有節存他沒辦法轉到下個月繼續用"},{"start":1646.141,"end":1646.682,"text":"部長可以搭台鐵是我"},{"start":1675.875,"end":1702.348,"text":"從上一屆我努力了4年本來台鐵也是有很多想法我後來就說你就把這一個機制把它建立起來人家要的縣市就會主動加入了高鐵我認為也是一樣其實他只要改這個他驗票的這個程式沒有花多少錢你把這一個可以用的這一個機具這個把它"},{"start":1703.699,"end":1729.866,"text":"這個平台你把它用好我跟你講人家有的縣市的人人家就會主動來了那你沒有的縣市我跟你講那他自己要去承擔他的責任彼此會比較對啊彼此會比較他自己會去承擔所以我會覺得就是說讓台鐵跟高鐵都可以搭這個才對我們的長輩是一個好處沒有多花政府一毛錢只要協調高鐵"},{"start":1731.186,"end":1731.766,"text":"我希望部長能夠跟高鐵協調一下吧。"},{"start":1754.79,"end":1776.247,"text":"對啦,院長我為什麼會特別提這個,其實各縣市政府認真做的,有的進勞卡都可以去搭計程車了,也可以有的可以去租借腳踏車了,有的甚至這個那個什麼運動的中心什麼他都可以開放了,那我們中央政府我們如果基於"},{"start":1777.489,"end":1797.891,"text":"關心長者的角度我們主動去把高鐵的這一個驗票的系統我們去補助他一點錢也好讓他去建制這樣我跟你講就會有縣市可以搭了啦之前台鐵一直在講說啊怎樣怎樣我後來我生氣我說你就花一筆錢你把它用好"},{"start":1798.871,"end":1825.803,"text":"你看有沒有人來搭所以現在是不是14個縣市有了那會越來越多的縣市啊我為什麼要強調這個高鐵一樣的道理啦你只要做了就會有縣市讓他可以搭了啦那這樣子才是中央政府有去關心我們長者啦非常謝謝委員的建議雖然這涉及部分涉及到地方的自治事項跟地方政府的財政規劃但是我想交通部積極來協調這個事情"},{"start":1827.419,"end":1827.599,"text":"謝謝吳委員、張委員"}]}},{"id":"154543","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154543","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e97eec80becccbeb859412a25d0aa7d1a49908f554dcbfda07e5bdf3d81c64cf4bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"15:49:35 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16:05:23","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T15:49:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T16:05:23+08:00","duration":948,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":368,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（15時50分）謝謝，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["李委員柏毅：還有交通部部長。"],["主席：請交通部李部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：卓院長，我要用我很珍貴的這15分鐘就交通部門的質詢、對院長的質詢，還是要說明一下，為什麼剛剛其他委員在講昨天立法院有4個委員會沒有辦法運作，其中最重要的一個就是，你是最受信任的院長，大家都信任你，所以昨天內政委員會提出要提高罷免門檻、要審議的時候，因為大家對你的信任，因此對這一個罷免案大家無法進行這些討論。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["李委員柏毅：臺灣的憲政體制，要嘛你對於覆議案的結果不滿，你可能可以對行政院提出不信任案，要嘛你就是接受這個覆議案。但是現在國會實際的運作不是這樣，他就是要當人民投下立委這一票的時候，同時人民手上還握有罷免的權力。你當選了之後，你馬上要改變人民罷免的這個權力，大家當然不滿！我們的機制是在另外一個。我先跟院長說明，大家是信任你，我們會繼續捍衛人民罷免的權力，所以再有相關的提案，民進黨團還是會持續捍衛人民罷免的權力。","我非常珍貴的時間用了1分半鐘，我要趕快為南部的建設發聲。院長是5月20日就任，5月15日我跟交通委員會去考察小港機場，行政院非常用心，包含之前8年的政府也提出了兩期計畫要擴張小港機場的建設，一共分成兩個階段，達到880億，包含新航廈、航道北移。可是現在南部人要的不是這個，我說明給院長聽。在2019年的時候、疫情前，小港機場的國際航班到達4,000個班次，但在2023年，也就是去年度，小港機場航班只恢復到2,258次。","我們要的其實不只是多點航班，我們還要有更大機型的飛機，我舉個例好了，現在剛好是暑假旺季，在疫情前，小港機場飛到國人最愛的北海道是用A330的飛機，也就是可以搭乘比較多人的雙走道的飛機來飛行；在疫情後，北海道還沒有復飛。在疫情前高雄有一些航班會用A330，或者是用波音747來飛行；但是在疫情後，小港機場目前所有航班只剩下單走道飛機。","我再舉一個例子，華航從高雄小港飛東京及桃園飛東京，小港飛東京航班現在的乘載率是96%，桃園飛東京是百分之八十幾。而桃園飛東京3台飛機都是A350，小港飛東京都是A321，都是小飛機。在我們要大量投資小港機場的航廈之前，要讓南部人出國旅遊，甚至未來可能臺南、高雄已經超越新竹科學園區，大量商務旅客進駐南部的時候，小港機場沒有可以直飛歐美的班機（這是我的中程目標），甚至連中型航班A350、波音747都沒有，這個其實目前不用花錢就可以做到。","我也跟院長報告，你還沒上任的時候，我3月6號在交通委員會質詢華航董事長，他跟我說，他正在買飛機，等A350在2025年到的時候，再來思考要不要到小港機場；他跟我說，他也正在買波音787的飛機，等2026年、2027年到位的時候，再來做整體的思考。如果我們要投資、如果我們要讓南部旅客比較方便，中程目標是飛歐美，但如果是比較方便的，像現在如果要飛三個小時以上的飛機，其實用321來飛是不舒服的。","所以在這邊想要請教院長，對於小港機場這一個新航廈擴建的態度會不會一樣？另外，我也要建議院長，在這個擴建開始之前，我們其實就可以要求國航優先調度A350的飛機或者是波音747的飛機，先服務南部超過三個小時以上旅程的旅客，院長，你支不支持這一個方向？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我日前才到桃園機場看第三航廈工程的進展，一樣的，未來小港機場有這樣的一個擴建計畫，我想行政院同樣的重視，我們會全力的支持！","至於現在，因為剛剛委員也提到開發大南方計畫，既然有這麼大的計畫，未來科技、人口以及各種的往來會加速，所以現在要預先做一些前瞻的規劃，我們要提前部署，我們再來跟航空公司協調，在飛機數量以及型號各種充分的情況底下，如何來充實加強小港機場現在的聯外系統需求，這個我們會跟交通部一起來跟華航、國航公司來處理。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝院長。部長呢？"],["李部長孟諺：也跟委員報告，其實小港機場目前的航班數已經大概恢復到疫情前的83%，航點現在已經有26個航點。"],["李委員柏毅：部長，我們說內行一點，我們說雙走道飛機什麼時候來？除了華航之外，我們小港機場的這些，包含機艙的停放優惠，我們有蘿蔔、也有棍子，我們希望可以趕快有雙走道飛機來服務南部的鄉親。但是我們更希望在短期內，南部的所有旅客或者是商務客，比如說今年又有火星人要來高雄開演唱會，歐美沒有直飛，還是從桃園轉啊！那各種大型的演唱會或者是未來南部的這些半導體產業園區中心，商務客還是從桃園轉啊！我們希望有一天歐美航線也可以在小港起降。要怎麼在小港起降？我們就需要787、我們就需要A380的飛機布局在高雄，有需要、有缺什麼硬體設備，我們就要在這一方面上來投資，部長。"],["李部長孟諺：我想這個我們來努力，包括協調航空公司怎麼樣能夠優先調度大型的、更舒適的飛機來這邊，當然也要提供適當的優惠。另外，年底會再新增3個航點，就是日本的熊本、札幌跟岡山；當然，歐美的部分我想我們還要再努力。"],["李部長孟諺：謝謝部長，謝謝。","下一題一樣是交通部，德國跟日本對我們臺灣台積電都直接用補助，請台積電去德國跟日本設廠，台積電在楠梓現在設3個廠，預計明年都開始量產，所以我跟陳其邁市長其實對於楠梓跟左營周邊的這些交通，包含軌道的建設，我們是非常、非常努力的在追。目前行政院其實也面臨到一個非常難的狀況，我剛才坐在底下聽其他委員的質詢，每一個人都要跟部長、院長講一條線，那我也一樣，我這一條是紫線。","但我很擔心的是，在前瞻計畫裡面其實高雄有爭取到一條黃線捷運。高雄爭取到黃線捷運在分年編列的預算裡面，包含113年中央必須補助119億，114年中央必須補助119億，包含115年中央必須補助139億，這些可能都是卓院長、李部長分別要來編列、支持，但是目前花東三法、財劃法劃下去，我不知道行政院對於113、114、115黃線捷運有沒有可能預算縮水，影響到黃線捷運的這些進度，我很擔心，這是第一點，院長讓你講一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，過去前瞻基礎建設確實幫助地方做了很多重要的公共建設，未來我們在預算編列過程當中，如果儘量朝不編列特別預算的方式走的話，那我們會少掉一大塊特別預算，也少掉過去的前瞻基礎建設，前瞻第五期剩下700億，已經核准但還沒編列預算的還有數千億……"],["李委員柏毅：所以我很擔心。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個將來如果消化掉，對行政院來講是非常大的考慮，我們現在正在做最後很多的模擬跟試算，困難相當大，但是無論如何，我們會從優先順序、地方最實際需要的，我們還是會儘量把它編入，跟地方一起合作。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，評估起來單單軌道建設還有包括鐵路，未來四年我們大概需要籌措4,000億的部分，所以這是一個非常大的……"],["李委員柏毅：可能還要再加1,884億，我講一下捷運紫線目前可行性評估已經在市政府最後的階段，預計會有24個車站，地下7站，可能高架有17站，總經費可能需要1,884億，當然這不是整段，因為後面還有佛光山段等等還沒有納入，是只有從高雄醫學大學接民族路這一段採地下，往北到榮總這一段採地下，再往左邊往西到高鐵站，這一串也採地下，過了高鐵之後要進入右昌地區要進入高雄大學地區要進入橋頭科學園區要進入包含大學學園區，這一段採高架，一共需要1,884億。","在捷運黃線的例子，我們在推動捷運黃線的過程裡面，捷運黃線包括從2019年通過可行性評估到2022年實際動工，一共花了大概5年的時間，我們希望捷運紫線在通過可行性評估之後，我們在環評上面就要來努力，希望可以縮短2年的時間，希望可以在一年多的時間達到環境影響評估，也希望後面的細部設計、動工等等都可以如期順利的在2028、2029的時候順利動工，這是我們希望的。","所以，剛剛部長講的這個預算，我還要跟你加1,884億。部長，捷運紫線其實是從楠梓、從現在台積電高鐵含捷運黃線會一路服務到3個醫療園區，包含長庚醫院、高雄醫學院、榮總，甚至包含義大，會包含7所大學，包含橋頭科學園區跟台積電楠梓產業園區，是這麼重要、產值那麼高的一條捷運線，我也希望到時候在環境影響評估等等可以獲得行政院大量的支持，院長，這一條線我也邀請院長跟部長來看看。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個紫線，希望高雄市政府能夠儘速完成可行性評估……"],["李委員柏毅：已經快出來了。"],["卓院長榮泰：出來以後，我們就請交通部依程序辦理，我們儘速來看，但是剛剛委員提到，我們如果將來沒有特別預算，前瞻預算也用完了，將來在整個公共建設的預算中無法這樣膨脹的話，恐怕很多時程會往後延。"],["李委員柏毅：這是我們擔心的……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，所以中央如果再沒有保持這種彈性靈活的財政能力的話，那往後延的可能性是相當不可預測的……"],["李委員柏毅：臺灣的政治體制，中央、院長就是要有足夠的能力去布局未來臺灣發展的方向，臺灣未來發展方向包含半導體、包含AI也有可能來高雄，這一些布局要把人引來，最重要的交通建設我也希望院長可以加強這個布局。"],["卓院長榮泰：也請委員支持我們中央保持這種彈性、有能力的財政能力，我們就能夠去均衡臺灣往最需要的地方去，但這個也會顧及到各縣市的公平性，請大家放心。"],["李委員柏毅：會啦！高雄值得投資。最後，關於楠梓交流道引道，李孟諺部長在4月27號還陪同陳建仁前院長來視察，包含鐵路立體化，從左營到橋頭這一段，未來都需要行政院大量的支持，拜託你，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員、謝謝院長。","接下來請吳秉叡委員、張宏陸委員聯合質詢，詢答時間30分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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建的計畫我想行政院同樣的重視我們會全力的支持那至於現在因為我們剛剛委員提到過要開發這個大南方的計畫"},{"start":415.708,"end":432.056,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":432.196,"end":432.556,"text":"部長,我們說內行一點"},{"start":460.151,"end":486.268,"text":"我們說雙走道飛機什麼時候來這個其實除了華航之外我們小雄機場的這些包含機艙的這些停放的優惠我們有蘿蔔也有棍子我們希望可以趕快有雙走道飛機來服務南部的鄉親但是我們更希望在短期內國人南部的所有的旅客或者是商務客比如說"},{"start":487.697,"end":487.717,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":508.188,"end":519.991,"text":"歐美航線也可以在台北起降,也可以在小港起降,要怎麼在小港起降,我們就需要787,我們就需要A380的飛機佈局在高雄。"},{"start":520.612,"end":520.632,"text":"謝謝部長,謝謝"},{"start":550.191,"end":574.669,"text":"來下一題一樣是交通部在德國跟日本對我們臺灣台積電都直接用補助都直接用補助來請這個台積電到去德國跟日本設廠那台積電在南梓他現在設三個廠那預計明年都開始亮廠"},{"start":575.518,"end":604.216,"text":"所以我跟陳其邁市長其實對於南梓跟左雲周邊的這些交通包含軌道的建設我們是非常非常努力的在追那現在目前行政院其實也面臨到一個非常難的狀況我剛才坐在底下聽其他委員的質詢每一個人都要跟部長跟院長講一條線那我也一樣我這一條是直線但是我很擔心的是"},{"start":605.017,"end":632.897,"text":"在前瞻計畫裡面其實高雄有爭取到一條黃線捷運高雄爭取到黃線捷運在分年編列的這些預算裡面包含113年中央必須補助119億包含114年中央必須補助119億包含115年中央必須補助139億這些可能都是左院長李部長分別要來編列分別要來支持"},{"start":633.885,"end":654.666,"text":"但是在目前花東山法在目前才化法畫下去我不知道行政院對於113、114、115黃線捷運有沒有可能預算縮水影響到黃線捷運的這些進度我很擔心這是第一點院長讓你講一下"},{"start":656.059,"end":675.36,"text":"謝謝委員因為過去前瞻基礎建設確實幫助地方做了很多重要的公共建設那未來我們在預算編列過程當中如果盡量朝不編列特別預算的方式走的話那我們會炒到一大塊特別預算也炒掉過去的前瞻基礎建設那前瞻第5期剩下700億"},{"start":677.602,"end":698.933,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":698.993,"end":717.341,"text":"您跟委員報告,就是評估起來單單軌道建設還有包括鐵路,未來4年我們大概需要籌措4千億的部分。那可能還要再加1884億,來我講一下捷運紫縣目前可行性評估已經在市政府的最後的階段,那預計會有"},{"start":721.121,"end":740.857,"text":"二十五個、二十四個車站、地下七站那可能高架有十七站那總經費可能是需要一千八百八十四億當然這不是整段因為後面還有佛光山段等等的這個還沒有納入是只有從高雄醫學大學"},{"start":741.718,"end":751.485,"text":"接民族路這一段踩地下往北到榮總這一段踩地下再往左邊往西到高鐵站這一串也踩地下"},{"start":752.301,"end":773.827,"text":"通過高鐵之後要進入右昌地區要進入高雄大學地區要進入橋頭科學園區要進入包含我們的大學學園區這一段採高價一共需要1884億在捷運黃線的例子裡面在我們在推動捷運黃線的過程裡面捷運黃線從"},{"start":776.321,"end":797.981,"text":"19年通過可行性評估到2022年實際動工一共花了大概五年的時間。我們希望在捷運子線通過可行性評估之後,我們在環評上面我們就要來努力。希望可以縮短兩年的時間,希望可以在一年多的時間就可以達到環境影響評估。"},{"start":799.582,"end":818.206,"text":"那也希望後面的西部設計等等的動工等等都可以如期都可以順利的在2028、2029的時候順利動工這是我們希望的所以剛剛部長講的這個預算我還要跟你加1884億部長捷運紫縣它其實是從南梓從現在台積電高鐵一路"},{"start":827.907,"end":837.101,"text":"會服務到三個醫療園區,包含長庚醫院,包含高雄醫學院,包含榮總,甚至包含義大。"},{"start":838.123,"end":859.839,"text":"那會包含七所大學那會包含橋頭科學園區跟台積電男子產業園區這麼重要產值那麼高的一條捷運線我也希望到時候在環境影響評估等等的那可以獲得行政院大量的支持這條線我也邀請院長跟部長來看看"},{"start":860.963,"end":882.009,"text":"這個只限希望市政府、高雄市政府能夠儘速完成這個可行性評估。那出來以後我們就請交通部、議程去辦理,我們儘速來看。但是剛剛委員提到我們如果將來也沒有特別預算,前瞻預算也用完了,那將來在整個公共建設的預算當中無法這樣的膨脹的話,恐怕很多時程會往後延。"},{"start":882.896,"end":909.503,"text":"這是我們擔心的。對,所以中央如果再沒有保持這種彈性靈活的財政的能力的話,那往後延的可能性是相當不可預測的。臺灣的政治體制,中央院長就是要有能力,足夠的能力去佈局未來臺灣發展的方向。臺灣未來發展方向包含半導體,包含AI也有可能來高雄。這一些佈局要把人引來最重要的交通建設,我也希望院長可以加強這個佈局。"},{"start":911.07,"end":936.149,"text":"也請委員支持我們中央保持這種彈性有能力的財政能力,我們就能夠均衡臺灣最需要的地方去,但這個也會顧及到各縣市的公平性,請大家放心。會啦,高雄值得投資。最後,男子交流道引道在李孟淵部長4月27號還陪同陳建仁前院長來視察包含鐵路地下化,"},{"start":936.749,"end":936.869,"text":"謝謝委員,好的謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154542","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154542","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e978664b1e1a7edaa4b412a25d0aa7d1a49c4cdf64d49d2681bda132672c464fa9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"15:33:52 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15:49:25","影片長度":"00:15:33","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T15:33:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T15:49:25+08:00","duration":933,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":336,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（15時34分）謝謝主席，本席邀請我們行政院卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["林委員俊憲：還有交通部李部長。"],["主席：部長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：院長好，部長好。賴清德總統從當選到上任以來，曾多次在公開場合說過，未來臺灣的經濟和政策的發展重心將會逐步南移。例如，今年初賴總統曾經在對高科技產業發言的時候說，未來50年由南部發揮力量；上個禮拜六賴總統來高雄捷運的岡山車站通車典禮，他也說，現在他來當總統，要讓臺灣的發展平均，要支持南部發展，最先進的產業會往中南部來移動。我記得6月15號卓院長你很辛苦地到臺南沙崙科學園區，還正式宣布國家的AI園區會設在臺南的沙崙，是這樣吧？所以我把賴總統的想法和做法稱為「建設大南方」，就是說，未來我們政府的施政重心會更加重視南北的均衡，更加投資南部，來扭轉多年以來的南北不平衡。不知道卓院長您的看法如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員！總統的想法也一定是在均衡臺灣的理念之下建設大南方，但是也不會忽略或是放掉北部跟中部。因為過去北部、中部的發展已經有相當長的一段時間，所以各方的健全發展也比較多，而南方過去承受了比較多的農業跟基礎工業的責任，現在有機會升級轉型成為一個更科技的地方，我們就要投注更大的力量。像我覺得沙崙就是一個讓我非常驚豔的地方，能不能夠全力地把它充實內容吸引人才？絕對是未來帶領臺灣進步再一劑的強心劑。"],["林委員俊憲：但是我們提到高科技產業往南邊移動，當然有政策上的因素，但是就先天的需要而言，第一，南部現在有土地，臺南的沙崙還有南科土地加起來大概有將近2,000公頃還可以使用；另外就是電力，其實現在北部的電力都是靠南電北送，長途的電力輸送增加損耗，尤其在北部幾乎不可能再蓋新的電廠，所以未來的高科技產業的發展，勢必會往中南部移動，這也是必然的。","在未來的產業會往南部移動的前提之下，我要提問的是，我們的基礎建設做好了嗎？我今天要來跟部長、院長討論的就是，我們必須要超前部署，我們必須要儘速發展、提升南部尤其臺南的一些基礎建設。像臺南是全世界最重要的半導體生產基地，還有未來AI最重要的一個發展的地方，但是針對它的基礎建設尤其交通，我今天特別要請教院長還有李部長。我也跟卓院長來報告，我跟李孟諺部長在談臺南的交通非常輕鬆，因為院長也知道，他在臺南服務過很多年，做過臺南的局長、副市長，還有代理市長，所以現在李孟諺來擔任交通部部長，對臺南的交通我等一下跟他討論，有時候會說到一些細節，院長不一定知道，但是李孟諺部長非常清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員俊憲：他甚至不用看圖，甚至有些細節他比我還瞭解。院長，你站在那邊，拜託！你負責支持就好了，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：李部長非常認真也勤跑，也熟悉業務，他代表行政院去跟外界所做的任何協商，我們行政院都非常支持。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝院長！李部長經過我們兩任市長，賴清德那時候為臺南打下來的基礎幹線就是三橫三縱，3條直的路線就是台61、國道1到國道3；3條橫的路線，所謂三橫就是台84號快速道路，還有國道8和86號；黃偉哲市長再多一橫，就是北外環道路，所以由三橫三縱變成三縱四橫，這些骨架道路都做得差不多了，我們現在要打通的就是還有一些打結的地方，有一些缺口我們要把它彌補起來。","在這裡也讓卓院長知道，最近兩個禮拜我每個禮拜都邀請李孟諺部長到臺南，我們去看臺南的一些交通，尤其針對南科一帶。也讓卓院長瞭解，南科現在大概有九萬多個人，未來短短幾年會快速增加到15萬人，南科的產值已經超過竹科。像我剛剛所講的，現在是全世界最重要的半導體生產基地，AI大力發展，不是在南科就是在沙崙。","這部分李部長有提一個非常好的建議，他說臺南市政府應該針對大南科訂定一個生活圈的道路計畫。我最近邀請李部長，幾乎每個禮拜都去，最近我有跟李部長講起，例如上次講到南科的一條烏橋中路被曾文溪擋住，我們現在做一個橋，讓烏橋中路可以跨越曾文溪，同時曾文溪右岸那一條紅色的南40線可以延伸到官田，讓曾文溪增加一條走廊，嘉惠佳里、麻豆、官田，這三個地方都有很多南科的人住在那裡，或是他上班要經過，我們要讓他的交通更加流暢，不用再繞來繞去。","另外，我們也講到西港大橋交通的改善。現在西港大橋的交通非常可怕，經過公路總局的統計，早上上班的時間──7點到8點，一小時內上橋的車輛數有三千多輛，幾乎是一秒鐘就有一輛車上橋，交通已經塞爆了，亟需一個改善計畫。這個計畫現在臺南市政府已經跟交通部訂定了，這部分也請交通部儘快完成西港大橋周邊交通的改善。","還有一個就是國道8號，如果院長有時間去臺南，行經國道8號會看到一個奇蹟──國道有紅綠燈，全臺灣只有這一條，國道跑到一半居然變成平面道路，還有紅綠燈。"],["卓院長榮泰：下來又上去。"],["林委員俊憲：還跟市區道路打結，還要爬坡。這部分李部長也有答應，尤其國道8號在安定這個地方，我們要用高架把它縫合起來。部裡面已經同意，現在我們需要卓院長鼎力支持。你看這個都在南科旁邊，是出入必經之道，一條國道居然跑一半還有一小段會出現紅綠燈。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，當初應該是地方有不同的聲音，所以下來又上去。現在高架的部分我們已經核定，交通部會辦理相關的發包程序，正在進行當中。"],["林委員俊憲：非常感謝。另外還有一段，就是國道8號還要再延長，因為在臺南市安南區，國道8號是南科進入臺南市區最重要的一條路，要進入安南區、要進入中西區、要進入安平都要走國道8號。但是國道8號在安南區很大部分都變平面道路，都在等紅綠燈。這部分其實有一個計畫，市政府有送一個計畫給交通部，就是國道8號要再拉長一點，讓它可以經過台江大道到安中路，就是從新吉過台江大道一直到安中路，等於把國道8號再拉長。這個部分的經費都估算出來了，大概要七十幾億的預算。李孟諺部長，國道8號這一條路拉長，你了解嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：是，我知道這裡現行是一條平面的台江大道，如果國道8號的高架要往這邊延伸，整個還要再做一個……"],["林委員俊憲：它只是跟台江大道交叉而已，國道8號其實是走在台17線上，等於國道8號……這裡是高架，這裡是平面，這裡是高架，剛才我們講要把安定平面的部分補起來。另外，進入安南區之後，這個高架繼續讓它走，因為太多平面道路留在安南區，變成從市區過安南區要去國道8號會走很久，會在平面道路塞很久，有太多紅綠燈、太多交叉路口。這一條也非常重要，這部分請交通部趕快完成規劃，市政府已經有一個規劃，也會送到交通部。","還有一個就是台86號，在蘇貞昌院長的時候，他核定了台86號向東接高雄內門。也讓卓院長瞭解一下，台86號跟剛才那個國道8號一樣，台86離國道3號就近在咫尺，不太遠，也是掉下去變成平面道路，掉下去之後的平面道路那個路口不得了，台19甲線是山區必經道路，一邊往關廟，一邊往新化，所以台86號在那個平面道路交叉路口大塞車，因為台86號還有很多是要上前面的國道3號，這不應該啦，就最後那麼一小段路變成平面道路，台86號應該到要接前面的國道3號。這在蘇貞昌院長的時候，我們就在極力爭取，另外，選區的王定宇委員對這個案件也很關心，他也在幫忙協調地方，這個部分還牽扯到未來臺南市跟高雄市兩個直轄市，也是一條很重要的山區通行道路，這部分要請交通部趕快來做。未來臺南還有很多像新營交流道、台江快速道路、六甲外環道路等等，都是未來非常重要的交通規劃，所以我說這要有一個計畫，我們希望未來十年就可以看到成果。未來十年我們臺南的交通建設我在這裡提出來，讓院長、部長一起來瞭解，我希望未來能夠全力來推動。","還有軌道建設，卓院長應該聽過臺南的鐵路地下化已完成86%，我們要再延長過永康，因為永康現在有二十幾萬人口，是臺南人口最多的行政區。我那天請李孟諺部長南下，把已經討論多年的永康延伸段確定清楚，所以以後鐵路地下化就延長到永康車站以北，可以過永康的永大路；再過去就是新市，新市就開始高架。所以永康的鐵路地下化延伸可以消除永康的三個平交道、三個陸橋、一個人行地下道；進入新市之後，臺鐵高架可以消除新市五個平交道、一個涵洞，不然南區出入口在新市竟然還有平交道，實在是很離譜。這部分都已經有計畫，而且李部長也到地方來答應完成這兩個部分，就是永康鐵路地下化的延長及新市鐵路的立體化，這部分都在等行政院核定而已，請行政院能夠全力來支持。","再來就是捷運，因為六都裡面只有臺南沒有捷運，院長，你知道嗎？其他五都都有，只有臺南沒有捷運。那一天李孟諺部長到臺南，謝謝部長馬上支持市府最新一條黃線捷運的規劃。這條黃線也很重要，因為它從南區、市區過安南區到新市南科，也就是它是從南區、中西區、安平區、安南區到新市區的新捷運。這個規劃案謝謝李孟諺部長的支持，因為臺南市的捷運中最成熟的是藍線，交通部已經核定了，送到行政院，等行政院核定，這部分是不是請卓院長儘速完成行政院的審定？"],["卓院長榮泰：市政府的基本設計已經完成，交通部也已經報院，我們現在加速來看看這個內容，儘速讓它更成熟，去執行這個藍線，其他的還有綠線跟剛剛委員所說的黃線，可行性評估跟相關作業都在進行當中。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝，因為如果現在沒做，以後成本會越來越高，尤其臺南未來會有更多的產業聚落進駐，所以我們希望未來的交通基礎建設能夠儘速來規劃好不好？","好，謝謝院長和部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝院長。","下一位請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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621.274,"end":626.651,"text":"我們剛才還要安定這個平面的部分給他補起來嘛。另外他就要安安顧了啦,你都到這裡繼續讓他走啦。"},{"start":628.459,"end":628.899,"text":"另外就是這個台86號"},{"start":655.506,"end":671.63,"text":"台86在所進中議定的時候有核定,台86的重擔就在高雄內蒙去。那台86,也讓左院長看了解一下,台86跟剛才8號都一樣,他就是台86離國道3號就近在咫尺。"},{"start":678.707,"end":697.617,"text":"但是因為也是掉下去變成平面道路,那掉下去平面道路那個路口不得了啊,那個路口齁,臺思周甲縣齁,那是山區必經道路啦,一邊歐元廟一邊對新華,所以你八十六號在那個平面道路交叉的路口齁,大太扯啦,因為八十六號還有很多要走的國道3號啦。"},{"start":702.022,"end":702.042,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":722.429,"end":744.52,"text":"所以這個報文還牽涉到未來台南市及高雄市,兩個直轄市,這也是一個很重要,這個三區的通營的道路。這報文,請高農部主評要趕緊來做。也就是說未來台南還有很多像新疆高流道、台港快速道路、六甲外環道路等等,這些都是未來非常重要的交通規劃。所以我跟你說,"},{"start":747.073,"end":765.367,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":766.008,"end":787.925,"text":"昨天委員長了解,台南的鐵路地下化,你應該提到台南的鐵路地下化,現在完全80%。那我們要再延長,因為延長過永康,因為應該說現在是台南最多人,二十幾萬人口的一個行政區。所以鐵路地下化,我一天請李孟彥部長來,把已經討論多年的永康的延伸段,把它確定清楚。"},{"start":788.886,"end":816.806,"text":"所以現在醫療喔,鐵路鐵路的沿燈到櫻空車頭100,可以過永康的永大路。另外國立壁就是新市啦,新市就開始高價。所以永康的鐵路地下化延伸喔,可以消毒,永康有三個平交道,三個路橋,一個人形地下道可以消毒。你要到新市喔,新市那台鐵高價啦,可以消除新市五個平交道,一個寒凍啦。"},{"start":817.566,"end":818.206,"text":"﹚林俊憲﹚林俊憲﹚林俊憲"},{"start":832.244,"end":832.544,"text":"委員．林俊憲"},{"start":861.916,"end":881.102,"text":"這個幾乎最新的一條黃線的捷運的規劃,因為這個運作也很重要,它在南區、在西區,因為西區過安南區到新吉南區。就是說它在南區、中西區、安平、安南區到新吉區的這個新的捷運。這個規劃案我們都寫,因為你們部長的職責。"},{"start":882.537,"end":899.451,"text":"因為台南市的捷運,尤其是最成熟的是藍線,現在保齡已經核定了,高等部核定了,上到行政院等行政院核定,這保齡是不是請到卓院長進促行政院來完成審定,好不好?"},{"start":900.291,"end":915.769,"text":"市政府的基本設計已經完成,交通部也已經抱怨了。那我們現在加速來看看這個內容,那盡速把這個藍線讓他更成熟去執行這個藍線。那其他的還有綠線跟剛剛委員說的黃線,這可行性評估跟相關的作業都在進行當中。"},{"start":916.973,"end":917.093,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154541","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154541","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e97a9a3a17f1fc9cb44412a25d0aa7d1a49c4cdf64d49d2681be9d0f8920134b93d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"15:17:52 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15:33:41","影片長度":"00:15:49","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T15:17:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T15:33:41+08:00","duration":949,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":279,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（15時18分）謝謝主席，有請院長，還有NCC的主委，還有數發部部長。"],["主席：請卓院長、NCC主委還有數發部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：游委員好。"],["游委員顥：院長好。我先請教NCC的主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["游委員顥：主委，未來你從NCC主委卸任之後，會去台哥大當它的獨立董事嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：台哥大？我們有旋轉門條款，不可能的。"],["游委員顥：對啊，所以你不會嘛！那NCC會有任何的委員卸任之後去台哥大當獨立董事嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這還是要受公務員服務法的規定。"],["游委員顥：對，很明顯的大家也知道，目前來講，台哥大的超額頻譜在6月30日到期，在7月1號之後若仍持有超頻頻譜並發射訊號就違法了。我會提這個議題是因為，我們都知道NCC主要的職權不僅是要防止媒體壟斷，它也需要去防止電信壟斷等各式各樣的壟斷，以維持市場的公平競爭。目前我們看到台哥大藉由訴訟，藉由跟NCC進行訴訟要把價值7億元的頻譜占著不肯歸還，嚴重的衝擊到市場機制，就公平、是非跟公道的原則，我想就教一下院長，像這樣的事件，行政院以及相關所屬機關會持什麼樣的態度來進行處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：頻譜是國家的公共財產……"],["游委員顥：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對要在一個公平的分配底下，有利於人民在使用這個設施能夠得到最佳的便利，所以，任何廠商都應該在這個規範底下去做頻譜的分配，絕對不能有任何營私或私心的作為。"],["游委員顥：沒有錯，院長，你說的沒錯，那現在NCC要如何來做這個作為？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我回答一下委員的問題，基本上來講，現在頻譜的主管機關是數位部，那當然以頻譜來講的話，它的規劃使用以後的監理就由NCC來負責，那現在來講的話，因為這是個案，我們現在已經找台哥大對這個部分在下禮拜到本會來陳述意見，因為這會涉及到一些問題，一方面來講，第一個就是頻譜如果超頻要怎麼處理的問題，這個部分可能是數位部的權限，但是跟NCC有關的是營運計畫的問題，也就是當時我們在做合併處分的時候有提到依法它有超頻的部分要繳回，如果不繳回的話，那相關的營運計畫可能會涉及到裁處的問題。"],["游委員顥：對，因為NCC涉及到裁處，包括罰款最低從五十萬甚至到五百萬，可是其實就算NCC不斷的裁罰，它只要占了這個頻譜，就等於是國家財產一樣，價值7億，它一樣持續在營運。當然我也不會問數位發展部的部長會不會去台哥大當獨董，因為他剛上任也很積極，要積極發揮。只是目前NCC，我坦白講，我們社會各界看到的，對於中天可以馬上立即的揮起大刀，但是對台哥大目前的裁罰，因為這個部分大家都在看報導，一路都知道，當初他在整併台灣之星的時候，它就已經讓台灣之星吸收了這85億的金額來做這個頻譜的虧損，而現在它又直接告NCC，在走行政訴訟來進行拖延。本席直接就教於我們的院長，像這樣子的事件，社會各界都在看，涉及到是否壟斷以及公平與正義，那院內這邊如何來舉起鐵腕還有來做積極的措施？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我回答一下委員的問題，基本上，以這個案子來講的話，它有沒有違反，本會是獨立機關，是合議制，所以會經過委員會討論以後來認定是不是有違法、要不要裁處，在裁處以後，如果違法狀態還沒有辦法解決，我們會要求改正，那如果它不改正，我們會連續裁處。"],["游委員顥：那這樣不就是陷入困境嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，因為法律授權給我們裁罰的那個上限就是五百萬，當然這個價值是蠻高的，所以以這個部分來講的話，本會會依照相關的程序跟法律依據去處理。"],["游委員顥：本席在這裡還是期望院長可以針對這件事情表態，因為我們看到如果說不斷這樣的裁罰，被裁罰以後還是不斷的拖延，一方面在當初整個合併的過程中，台哥大就已經也都把這個遊戲規則是超過三分之一就要繳回，超過就要繳回，都直接讓NCC主委清楚知道。但是以現在來講，台灣之星吸收了這85億，再跟NCC進行訴訟來拖延，那NCC能夠做的只剩下請它喝咖啡來瞭解這個事情，這樣以政府的鐵腕、政府對於這個市場的保護來講，我覺得是不夠的，並沒有積極的態度跟手段，那我相信院長應該也同意我的看法。"],["卓院長榮泰：任何的合併都應該以保障消費者的權益做為優先的考量，在這個過程當中，如果有不當的使用，或是在使用上有違規、違法的情形，NCC剛剛講是有罰則的，那罰則所規定的金額縱使有上限，如果我們持續不斷地要求業者來改善這個作為，我認為這樣的強度是必須拿出來的，表示公權力跟消費者的權益是站在一起的。"],["游委員顥：好，因為這個部分涉及到廢止，中天也是在換照的時候就被大刀一揮，本席跟台灣大哥大其實也不認識，只是針對這一個議題來講，我相信大家都在關注，那我希望行政院這邊包括NCC能夠祭出積極的作為，謝謝。","我接著要請教交通的議題，就謝謝主委跟部長。請交通部部長，謝謝。","本席還是如以往的，在上次的總質詢也有針對中捷橘線能夠進南投這個議題，這個議題是攸關於南投非常重大的交通建設，因為中彰投，尤其是臺中、南投本就是一個生活圈，中捷進南投這個議題更是許淑華許縣長在過去八年立委期間，以及現在當縣長期間非常重視的議題，本席只想在這邊針對中捷橘線進南投，希望行政院長能夠表個態，南投縣政府的計畫送進來的時候，是不是行政院這邊也能夠全力來支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：交通部應該是要跟臺中市政府、南投縣政府在進行可行性評估，現在交通部的進度是不是跟委員報告？"],["李部長孟諺：是，跟委員報告……"],["游委員顥：簡短說明一下。"],["李部長孟諺：去年2月已經有核定補助南投縣政府，針對這個延伸的部分來做可行性的規劃，現在正在做規劃之中，我想它只要規劃報告完成，我們會送到交通部來協助，當然在規劃的過程也必須跟臺中市做相關的協商，包括工程的辦理還有未來怎麼樣的經營、誰來當經營的主體、相關的財務怎麼樣的分擔，我想這個部分也要先協商，之後我們就會來協助審議。"],["游委員顥：OK。本席這邊還是再強調一下，交通部協助南投縣政府的這個報告、評估計畫，在7月就會完成南投縣軌道系統整體網絡評估計畫，到時候包括南投縣政府跟臺中市政府本就有共識，也希望交通部到時候能夠全力支持，因為這是包括賴清德總統的一個政見，所以本席在這裡也希望院長您能夠表個態，願意來全力支持跟促成。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請交通部儘速跟地方政府來協議看如何進行以下的程序。"],["游委員顥：所以院長您是支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：對地方好的事情、需要的事情，中央都支持。"],["游委員顥：所以中捷橘線進南投您是支持？"],["李部長孟諺：只要評估有效益，相關的規定符合，我想我們就來協助促成。"],["游委員顥：這個中彰投生活圈一定有效益，但是院長你是可以表達一個支持的態度，我相信南投縣民也比較放心。"],["卓院長榮泰：我去請交通部儘速地進行這個評估，如果評估過程當中到結論出來，地方也需要，財力負擔大家也都清楚，將來這個發展對地方的未來發展有絕對的幫助，那我們一定支持地方的這個交通建設。"],["游委員顥：好，那就直接講支持，沒關係，我接著問一個重大的建設，之前本席在上次總質詢還沒有提過，但是這次要特別來為我們南投跟彰化的鄉親，尤其是南投的鄉親來跟院長這邊爭取，就是我們國道三號南雲交流道通車完工之後，其實是讓我們整體南邊的南投鄉親，在交通上確實是有比較便利的一個出口。問題是院長，其實我們有時候去中部的時候，去快官交流道下，還直接到臺中搭高鐵，這是非常便利的，但是南投的鄉親其實卻沒有辦法輕易的去田中高鐵站來搭高鐵，大家還是必須要繞到雲林，再到田中高鐵站去搭乘，所以一下一上這個路徑是非常的遙遠。","其實當初在這個交流道有預留一個缺口，它就是要做彰南大橋，只要竹山一過去二水，就直接到田中，可以直接到高鐵站，過去來講，縣府曾經有提出希望能夠讓交通部來協助，中央的經費出的比例，包括南投縣政府跟彰化縣政府能夠出的比例，現在南投縣政府跟彰化縣政府也有共識，是不是可以請院長以及部長來思考南雲交流道搭彰南大橋過去的這個建設，後續它可以持續做到的就是一路到田中高鐵，再到二林的工業區，那就等於是一個東西向的快速道路，相信這個對整體南投去彰化也好，去搭高鐵也好，都是非常的便利，相關的資料其實交通部過去都有，我想就教一下院長，是不是這一案能夠正向來支持，也能夠積極協助？"],["卓院長榮泰：交通的規劃，交通部先說明一下。"],["李部長孟諺：是，委員您所提的應該就是竹山到二水這個東西向的快速道路。"],["游委員顥：對。"],["李部長孟諺：我的瞭解，如果要跨越、穿越八卦山脈是一個比較大的工程，所以必須要……"],["游委員顥：我修正一下部長的說法，這個不用跨越八卦山脈，它直接就是跨濁水溪就可以了。所以當初在評估計畫，到時候留個缺口就是讓南雲交流道可以直接過去跨越濁水溪，旁邊則是有雲林到彰化的大橋，因此它的那個難度在以前早就已經突破了，所以這邊還是要請交通部……"],["李部長孟諺：這個我們再做一個瞭解，我們也會跟南投縣府跟彰化縣府大家一起坐下來協商，如果在交通上有它的需求，看怎麼樣啟動這個部分的可行性。"],["游委員顥：好，針對這個部分，我們交通委員會預計7月15號也會排會勘，到時候我們來考察，也希望院長對於這項重大建設能夠正面支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。每每到南投去，都是到臺中，再經過道路系統，雖然現在比過去是進步許多了，但也一直在思考，如果能夠有一個更便捷的方式，我想對南投的居民來講，絕對是一個好的結果，所以交通部在接下來的會勘當中，我們全力來看看如何協助。"],["游委員顥：好。本席坦白講，我就不考院長了，過去8年在南投、彰化可以提出的重大交通建設，其實是不好列舉啦，但是我相信在這一年您擔任院長的任上，包括部長，積極協助推動，讓快速道路能夠看見曙光，我相信這個對於南投跟彰化會是一大福音！因為建設也不分藍綠，我們中央、地方齊心，好不好？謝謝。","再來一個議題就是「台灣好行」，還有我們看到觀光署推動的部分都做得非常好，包括交通部的推動。目前來講，我們看到許多成績也帶動地方觀光發展，但是南投市──南投最大的鄉鎮市，還沒有相關的路線，所以想請院長和部長到時候積極支持南投市也能夠有後續的路線開出。","接著就是我們看到博愛座的問題，博愛座現在被稱為「搏鬥座」，現在要做一個修正，就是有必須要使用者可以坐這個座位，因此做了一個更名，也就是「實際需要者」。本席在這裡還是要提出，希望交通部在這個部分能夠跟衛福部再做個溝通，因為「老弱婦孺」改為「實際需要者」，我個人是認為不應該受到這許多事件的影響，反而大家應該回頭在宣導跟教育上重新讓大家認知，而不是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳。我認為不能本末倒置，因為對於所謂「實際需要」這樣子的字眼，還需要去做一個定義，我覺得大可不必，反而是實際需要在以前是哪些類別都可以，應該要加強宣導。","最後謝謝院長在馬文君委員提出茶博的時候有表達說，到時候您也會來參加南投的茶博。"],["卓院長榮泰：我很樂意。"],["游委員顥：謝謝您的參與，相信到時候大家會非常期待。本席在這裡特別拜託，也延續馬文君委員跟許淑華縣長的一個需求，過去兩年中央對茶博的補助是800萬，是不是今年可以持續往800萬以上的水平來支持，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個日前馬委員有提到。"],["游委員顥：對，但是沒有提到今年。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也有答復他，這個補助沒有比過去少，我們希望活動能夠辦得很成功。謝謝。"],["游委員顥：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝游委員，謝謝院長。","下一位請林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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那博愛座現在被稱博豆座那現在來講做一個修正來講他叫做有必須要使用者來去做這個座位去做一個更名實際需要者那本席在這裡還是要提出希望交通部還在這個部分能夠跟衛福部再去做一個溝通"},{"start":877.552,"end":902.444,"text":"因為老弱婦孺改為實際需要者我個人是認為不應該是受到許多這些事件反而大家應該是回頭來講是在宣導跟教育上還重新讓大家來去做一個認知而不是頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳那我相信不能本末倒置因為本來來講大家實際需要這樣子的字眼還需要去做一個定義我覺得其實是大可不必"},{"start":902.944,"end":903.105,"text":"最後﹗"},{"start":910.595,"end":938.676,"text":"那這個謝謝院長那時候在馬文君委員提出查柏的時候你有表達說您到時候也會來參加這南投的查柏對那謝謝您的參與那相信到時候大家非常期待那本席也在這裡也特別拜託延續馬文君委員跟許淑華縣長的一個需求過去兩年的話查柏中央的補助是800萬那是不是在今年的部分可以持續往800萬以上的水平來支持好不好"},{"start":939.309,"end":939.329,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154540","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154540","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e97df5cbcd096e25d05412a25d0aa7d1a49c4cdf64d49d2681b2aad447d12a835725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"15:02:18 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15:17:44","影片長度":"00:15:26","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T15:02:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T15:17:44+08:00","duration":926,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":223,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（15時2分）謝謝主席，請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：呂委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝，卓院長，許多國人都認為我們現在國旅的費用非常的昂貴，尤其CP值比不上韓國跟日本這些鄰近的國家，所以他們寧可出國去玩，也不願意留在我們國內觀光，現在是有這個現象，所以本席也特地跟觀光署調了一些資料，從108年的疫情之前，到112年的疫情之後，我們的房價漲幅真的很高，調高了將近20%以上，針對這些情形，觀光署的解釋、說明是，因為基本工資還有電價跟原物料的關係，才讓我們住宿旅館的房價越來越高，可是一般民眾是認為，因為我們旅遊有淡旺季的關係，禮拜一到禮拜五幾乎都是沒有人；若是禮拜六、日的時候，則是一房也難求，是有這種情況發生，為了彌平他們的營運成本，所以它把假日的房價提高，這樣子的話，它的成本才能夠平衡，所以在這種情形之下，我們看到的是平日跟假日是有這樣的關係，請問院長跟部長，有沒有可能我們對住房的房價予以特別的規範，讓我們假日的價錢跟平日的價錢，以不能超過多少趴的情形來予以限制呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，發展觀光是國家重大的政策，我們在前一陣子的報告當中還特別提出，希望季季都是觀光季……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們希望天天都是……"],["卓院長榮泰：路線能夠把它拉長，能夠把它……"],["呂委員玉玲：但現在就有這種淡旺季的情形。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為在疫情之後，現在有很多人力的缺口，很多人力無法補充回來等等，對觀光的品質會有所影響，但是，也真的誠如委員所說的，在國內觀光包括交通費、住宿費，國人感覺起來，去國外跟在國內算起來，國內的費用是偏高的，有一個方面是市場的機制，一方面是我們在供需量能上面，還要做更多的協助，所以觀光署確實很努力在推動。"],["呂委員玉玲：院長，最重要的是要有人進來觀光救我們的國旅！我們的國旅，大家說臺灣住宿的房間價格太高，所以都出國去了。交通部觀光署原本預估今年要達到1,200萬人次的觀光，但最近調整到1,000萬。不過截至6月15日，觀光人數才多少？353萬人次！如果以353萬人次這個數字來計算，到年底也不會超過700萬人次。在這種情形之下要怎麼救觀光呢？尤其現在兩岸互不觀光，陸客又不進來，你們又把陸港澳警示升為橙燈的情形下，我們要如何達到預估的觀光人次？"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，目前統計到6月底，大概將近三百八十幾萬到三百九十萬……"],["呂委員玉玲：到年底也達不到1,000萬啊！"],["李部長孟諺：在臺灣通常國際旅客來的旺季比較偏重在下半年，所以我們認為大家再努力一點還是有機會的。上半年因為受到0403……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你太過於樂觀了，自我感覺太過良好！其實有很多方法，本席建議，我們可以招攬更多的國際觀光客進來臺灣觀光，這個就可以平衡平日很差的住房率，這也是一個重點，可不可以朝這方面努力來做？"],["李部長孟諺：有，有朝多角的部分在努力，來增加國際觀光客……"],["呂委員玉玲：比較起來，來臺灣觀光的多來自東南亞，所以我們要多向歐美宣傳，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：有。"],["呂委員玉玲：讓國際觀光客進來，這個是最好的方法。"],["李部長孟諺：現在美加的航班有增加，所以這部分我們也督促觀光署在美加的據點能多多宣傳……"],["呂委員玉玲：要再努力，我希望你們能夠達標，不然觀光業真的非常慘淡，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：我們也在努力。我們另外也在觀光署網頁裡推出優質、比較平價的旅宿給國人參考、訂房。"],["呂委員玉玲：雖然是平價旅宿，但觀光的品質、住宿的品質一定要提高，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：是，所以還要兼顧……"],["呂委員玉玲：這樣我們臺灣的觀光才會有更好的知名度，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：要兼顧優質。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來本席想請教院長、部長，食衣住行是我們生活的主要，其中行的交通是我們每天生活上都會遇到的，尤其馬路上都充滿了汽機車跟行人，一遇到交通事故，就會導致我們的生命財產受到損傷。所以我在這邊要特別提到交通安全，這是我們最重要、最需要關注的。在交通安全上，交通事故的發生，尤其是與兒童有關的事故傷害往往是頭號殺手！因此，本席要聚焦在兒童的交通事故上，即就學、通學的整個環境步道上。針對這方面，平均每年有將近兩萬名兒童受到交通事故影響，甚至受到傷害、死傷，而去年更高達三萬人，表示政府在行的安全上做得非常不夠，院長同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以才會從兩萬提升到三萬！現在最重要的、要跟院長討論的就是行的安全，尤其是通學步道、人行道。根據靖娟基金會的調查報告顯示，有75%的家長自己接送，25%是學生自行上下課，但有將近51%的學生不想自己去上學！原因當然很多，包括道路被停車的車輛所占走了，以致行人走一走，會走到汽機車道路上，實在非常危險。還有，這些車輛看到行人不會禮讓，這些都相當、相當危險！該報告還提到，走路、步行到學校二十分鐘的，將近占了六成，住家比較近的、五分鐘之內的、由家長接送的部分，還是各半，表示家長非常不放心孩子的安全問題。尤其以五分鐘到學校、卻需要家長接送的比例又再升高，從54%增加到87%，所以家長非常不放心，他放心的範圍大概就是5分鐘的車程。本席要給院長跟部長看一下我準備的照片，這是本席在我們桃園平鎮地區的幾個國小、國中、高中學校外面的通學環境，您看到有很多問題，尤其是學校周邊都是斑馬線，斑馬線還交叉複雜的圖形，讓他們也無所適從，而且出了校門口之後沒有人行道，有些有人行道的部分又有很多的障礙物，包括路燈、變電箱，還有攤販等等，這些都必須要趕快積極來做。交通部特別提到在113年到116年有編列預算要對所有通學步道來做改善，全臺灣有4,165間學校，但是你這4年的時間只打算做715所學校，不到20%，那其他的呢？其他學校要各自提案嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，針對路口的改善，現在交通部正提出一個道安計畫，我們在年底之前會把799處易肇事的危險路口做標誌標線及中央庇護島的改善，同時在200個學校的周遭道路會加設標線標誌，讓行車經過更清楚。"],["呂委員玉玲：院長，本席跟你提的是全臺有4,165所學校，你的目標是700所學校，危險的時候不能等待，很多路口是連停等的空間都不夠啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經要求……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們是不是應該要多編列預算，將預算提升，讓每個學校對於危險、不安全路段，直接就讓他們可以各自提案。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，預算交通部現在可以……"],["呂委員玉玲：你不要限制他們嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：其實我們現在希望它加快時程，今年內一定要完成最重要、最有安全顧慮的200處學校周遭的道路……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們這200處是怎麼調查出來的？是各校提供的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請交通部來答復。"],["李部長孟諺：這個是由內政部國土署跟各縣市政府，包括教育局、工務局大家去會勘後選定，之前在4,000所學校裡面有部分已經完成，未來我們是把最迫切的這七百多所列為優先的目標。當然，如果各縣市的量能可以提早在這4年內來完成，我們也歡迎它提出來，有些沒有提是因為有客觀環境或是有用地上的問題還有待克服，所以只要技術上可行，我想我們都會在預算上儘量來支持。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，因為本席擔心你這個計畫是4年的時間，4年才去檢討的話就太慢了！路口如虎口，我們已經舉例出這麼多危險的路段，行人走一走就走到馬路上與車爭道，這非常不安全，現在的孩子幾乎都是家長在接送，在這種情形之下，我們必須要提高預算，讓各校提出他們需要改善行的環境跟行的安全的路段，該怎麼樣配置、改善，我們就全力來配合，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：這一定要去做的。"],["卓院長榮泰：交通部儘量在今年完成這200處之外，也儘量跟地方來瞭解哪些路段更需要加進來，我們往後加速來進行。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席剛剛講的，從2萬人增加到去年3萬人，是增加不是減少的，所以我們怎麼可以慢慢來呢？一定要同步，全臺灣一起檢討、改善我們整個通學的環境，尤其通學環境這部分，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，好的。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來本席要討論的就是地方建設，在本席的選區裡面，目前有關桃園鐵路地下化，請問平鎮車站的進度在哪裡？到哪裡了？"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，現有的平鎮車站目前正在施工，現在正在做連續壁的工程。我想市府有提出希望能夠南移，靠近未來的重劃區，目前評估起來，如果現在南移會有三個問題，一個是它的站體剛好在老街溪下面，出站後會有一個穿堂層，那個穿堂層會被老街溪阻隔成兩半，對於旅客動線、逃生動線及疏散動線會有問題。第二個，整個桃園鐵路地下化的期程會增加3年。第三個，現有站體已經在施工，移過來所要增加的經費還要再估算。所以大概會有這三個問題要去克服。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，謝謝你瞭解所有的狀況，很感謝你。本席從上一任的立法委員一直到現在，非常關注的就是這個建設，因為在桃園，鐵路有經過的地方都有設站，鐵路經過的桃園有13區都有設站，只有平鎮沒設站。平鎮在桃園的人口數是第三大的地方，我們的人口數這麼多，有24萬人，我們必須要設一個車站，才能夠解決中壢車站人次這麼多的情形。部長，你也到過中壢車站，本來中壢車站是最醜的車站，現在已經將臨時站移到旁邊去，要趕快進行整個改善工程，所以你看到中壢車站交通堵塞、道路狹窄、腹地不夠的情形，我們擔心平鎮也會發生一樣的問題，所以我們要有遠見，要讓地方進一步的發展，對於未來看得到的問題，就必須都要一一的來解決。","當下在106年的時候，平鎮車站的增設計畫就經過了可行性的評估，在高架計畫中已經設計進去了，後來要改成鐵路地下化，經過溝通協調，也納入鐵路地下化的工程，但是因為坡度的問題，所以要改變車站的位置，要北移665公尺。那時候本席一直講，車站要設在一個腹地夠寬廣、有停車空間、有公車轉運且不造成交通堵塞的地方，但是前朝市政府一直沒有聽到民意，沒有再去找到更好的地點，所以北移了665公尺，就是現在這個平鎮車站的地方。後來張善政市長上任之後，馬上反映這個問題必須要獲得解決，所以我們先解決了坡度的問題，行政院也已經通過，同意我們臺鐵地下化平鎮車站的出土位置南移1.2公里。","現在南移1.2公里坡度問題也解決了，那平鎮車站是不是能夠移回去我們原來可行性評估通過的地方，就是老街溪西側這個地方。所以我們在5月24號有發文給行政院以及鐵道局，在7月1號也有開了會，下個禮拜我們會跟鐵道局再開一次會，請院長、部長可以支持我們桃園鐵路地下化平鎮車站南移計畫這個方案，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果市政府能夠儘速把站址地點確定下來，地方也能夠接受，我們的交通部儘速……"],["呂委員玉玲：這是我們民意大家所要求的。"],["卓院長榮泰：儘速跟市政府來協商，我們進行以後必要的程序。"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告的是……"],["呂委員玉玲：拜託，拜託院長跟部長一定要支持我們的方案，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂委員，下一位我們請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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175,"end":608.004,"text":"這個是由內政部國土署跟各縣市政府包括教育局、公務局大家去會刊那選定那不過之前也有已經有些四千所學校裡面有之前有部分已經完成那未來我們是把最迫切的這700多所列為優先的目標那當然如果各縣市的量能他可以提早提早在這四年內來完成的我們也歡迎他提出來"},{"start":608.524,"end":609.605,"text":"因為本席擔心你這個計畫是4年的時間,4年才去檢討的話,太慢了。"},{"start":627.688,"end":627.768,"text":"好的委員"},{"start":655.181,"end":656.082,"text":"這一定要去做的。"},{"start":683.719,"end":696.084,"text":"接下來本席要討論的就是我們地方的我們的建設在本席的選區裡面目前我們桃園鐵路地下化平正車站的進度在哪裡?"},{"start":700.108,"end":719.984,"text":"跟委員報告現有的憑證車站目前正在施工現在正在做連續幣的工程那我想市府有提出希望能夠南以南以那靠近這個未來的一個重劃區那目前的評估起來就是說如果現在南以有三個問題一個是他會在這個"},{"start":721.485,"end":728.228,"text":"對於旅客的動線還有逃生的動線疏散動線會有一個問題那第二個整個桃園鐵路地下化的騎乘會增加三年那第三個就是現有站已經在施工移過來會增加的經費這個部分還要再估算"},{"start":750.516,"end":760.18,"text":"謝謝你了解所有的狀況很感謝你那本席在上任立法委員一直到現在非常關注的就是這個建設因為在桃園鐵路有"},{"start":762.654,"end":783.473,"text":"﹗"},{"start":783.513,"end":808.039,"text":"本來中壢車站是最醜的車站,現在也移到旁邊去做臨時站,要趕快做改善的整個工程。所以你看到,平鎮車站,交通堵塞,道路狹窄,腹地不夠的情形,我們擔心平鎮也會發生一樣的問題。所以我們要遠見,要讓地方進步發展,就必須要有未來看得到的問題都要一一的來解決。"},{"start":809.199,"end":828.849,"text":"當下的時候我們在106年的時候我們就經過了可信心的評估把我們的平鎮車站用增設計畫裡面在我們高架已經設進去了後來改成鐵路地下化我們也經過溝通協調也納入鐵路地下化的這個工程那但是因為一些坡度的問題說要改變我們的"},{"start":832.971,"end":856.958,"text":"車站要北移665公尺那本是那時候的話一直講說那你車站設置一個有腹地夠寬廣有停車空間有公車轉運而不造成交通堵塞的地方但是前朝市政府一直沒有聽到民意所以沒有在找到更好的地點所以北移了665公尺就是現在的這平成車站的地方"},{"start":857.338,"end":875.341,"text":"後來張燦正市長上任之後馬上反映這問題必須要獲得解決所以我們先解決了就坡度的問題行政院也已經通過同意我們我們鐵路平正車站這個陶鐵地下化出土位置難以1.2公里既然難以1.2公里坡度也解決了"},{"start":875.902,"end":905.445,"text":"那這憑證車站是不是移回去我們原來可行性評估通過的地方老街西西車這個地方所以我們在5月24號有發文給行政院也有鐵道局在7月1號也有開了會那我們在下個禮拜我們會再跟鐵道局開會再開一次會所以請院長部長可以來支持我們逃脫鐵路地下化憑證車站難移的這個計畫這個方案好不好"},{"start":906.263,"end":906.844,"text":"好,謝謝李委員"}]}},{"id":"154539","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154539","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e975b936834bc077061412a25d0aa7d1a49c4cdf64d49d2681b3046dc99d7347fec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"14:46:24 - 15:01:59","影片長度":"00:15:35","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T14:46:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T15:01:59+08:00","duration":935,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":186,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（14時46分）主席、各位列席官員，大家好。主席，我想請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：顏委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：院長好。院長，今天是交通組的總質詢，但是我在開始之前，想要先請院長針對大進滿88號漁船被大陸海警帶回泉州，已經是第3天了，可不可以跟大家報告一下，目前我方的進度如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員關心，我們一樣關心人船的安全，事發當時海巡的兄弟們很積極的想去把他營救回來，但是因為進入到對方的海域比較深處，不敢再往前進，所以就在當時進行了這個決定。現在為止，我們正透過包括陸委會、海基會……"],["顏委員寬恒：目前有沒有得到任何的回應？"],["卓院長榮泰：都在跟對方做積極的接洽當中，希望第一個，人船能夠儘速的回來，也希望對方保護安全。"],["顏委員寬恒：人一定要平安的回來，國人的安全不要淪為一個政治的角力。","院長，我來繼續請教，請問院長知不知道臺鐵便當節目前是第幾屆了？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺鐵便當節目前第幾屆……"],["顏委員寬恒：我告訴你，第9屆，也是民營化之後、公司化之後的第1屆，4天入場人數突破40萬，營業額也衝高到1,200萬，大幅的超越預期。臺鐵便當一向都是我們非常喜歡的，也是便當界的首選，像我們今天院會也是吃臺鐵便當，我想裡面相當豐富啦！有雙主菜，甚至於和牛、鰻魚等這些高級食材也有。我想要說的是便當有雙主菜，但是我們臺中海線鐵路雙軌高架到現在還沒有實現，可不可以請院長簡單說明一下，臺中海線鐵路雙軌高架化目前的進度？"],["卓院長榮泰：海線的雙軌，委員關心是從談文到追分這一段……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，再加上大慶跟烏日。"],["卓院長榮泰：另外高架是大慶到烏日這一段。"],["顏委員寬恒：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：目前包括山海線跟捷運藍線一起在做共構的推動，這個計畫目前在進行，在今年的1月已經原則同意了，現在進行到剩下一步的評估當中，請部長說明可以更瞭解。"],["顏委員寬恒：等一下我再請教部長，我大概講一下，因為這個案子已經很多年了，爭取了很多年，過去只有單軌的時代，海線只有單軌，所以不管是快慢車的調度還有實際運作上都有一定的難度，班次少還有搭乘的人次比較少，所以這樣子惡性循環讓很多的旅客還有地方的居民都捨棄臺鐵，尋求其他的交通運輸方式。我們都知道，像交通部長到臺中去考察，我們也一直在討論這些問題，軌道經濟可以帶動地方長遠性的發展，所以臺中鐵路海線雙軌高架的部分跟我們捷運藍線會在沙鹿站交錯，不管是站體的移動還有陸橋的拆除，這些跨機關的規劃，目前都在進行當中。整個海線高架的部分從大甲到沙鹿，大概是10.9公里，另外從沙鹿以南一直到烏日站，這一段是雙軌平面，再來從大慶到烏日高架的部分，現在正在國發會的審理階段。","所以我要藉這個機會跟院長、部長討論，替人民來發聲，因為這個部分確實影響臺中整個海線跟烏日高鐵特區的整體發展。我們希望軌道捷運化能夠落實在整個大臺中市，尤其臺中市已經突破285萬人口，因為平面鐵路會造成兩端發展不均衡的狀態，所以常常我們看到前站、後站的發展都不相同，不管是在成本預算，這些都是重要的考量，人力、原物料等等是會越來越貴，現在物價通膨高漲的時代，所以越早做越便宜。我要請教院長，從大甲一直到烏日站全線高架，能不能作為你任內的目標？"],["李部長孟諺：現階段我們目前的計畫是海線部分是部分高架，另外包括大慶到烏日，因為它延續臺中市高架的部分，可以繼續從大慶延伸，這兩個會列為優先，後面如果要全線高架，可能還要再進一步做可行性的評估。"],["顏委員寬恒：鐵路是國有財產，不管是營收、營運都屬於中央所有，所以過去我們看到從臺中市火車站一直到豐原，整個全線的高架都是由中央專案全額補助。這一次我們看到了烏日到大慶鐵路高架部分，臺中市政府要負擔56%，負擔的比例相當的高，總經費83.4億，要負擔超過四十幾億。","下一張表格，這個部分請看一下，桃園地下化部分，地方只要負擔25%；嘉義的高架化負擔14%，嘉義的延長高架化延伸計畫負擔15%；臺南市地下化部分負擔12.5%；高雄市的部分負擔29%；只有臺中負擔56%，為什麼要負擔這麼高？而且我們現在只提到烏日大慶高架化這個部分八十幾億，如果再加上海線雙軌平面跟雙軌高架的部分，可能要上看七百多億，全部臺中市政府要負擔56%，可不可以請院長跟部長告訴我們，為什麼臺中市自主負擔這麼高？"],["卓院長榮泰：把怎麼樣計算的標準，跟委員說明。"],["李部長孟諺：我簡單做一個說明，現在不管是鐵路高架或者是鐵路地下，立體化的部分，其實除了讓臺鐵在營運上面比較安全之外，另外一個重點就是讓所在的城市彼此之間貫穿鐵路的道路可以縫合，可以沒有平交道，對交通、對市容都有很大的幫助，所以地方政府才會要部分負擔。現在是因為有一個通案性的計算原則，就是有自償的部分，優先由地方政府負擔，非自償的部分，才由中央政府跟地方政府來照比例。這個部分我想是一個全國性通用的原則，可能在自償率的計算還要跟國發會再做討論。"],["顏委員寬恒：這我們不能理解，一樣是直轄市對不對，地下化的預算、費用更高，但是桃園市負擔25%，那為什麼臺中市要負擔56%呢？而且臺中市還是高架喔，不是地下化，地下化更貴喔！這部分沒有一致性，你不能讓我們陷入那一種感覺說你在懲罰好學生，因為臺中市的財政能力比較好，它算是二級，所以要負擔更多、更高。那是不是鼓勵地方政府不應該把自己的財政管理的那麼好？"],["李部長孟諺：它主要還是優先有一個自償啦，具自償性的部分會由地方這邊負擔，另外，非自償的部分才由中央、地方照一定的財政分級比例來處理，這部分因為牽涉到比較詳細的計算，委員，我是不是另外再安排時間跟您說明？主要這個是目前全國通用的計算原則。"],["顏委員寬恒：我接下來再請教海線鐵路雙軌的部分，我們真的要靠中央來支持，因為地方沒有辦法負擔那麼大的預算，尤其是之前前瞻計畫分配不均對臺中人已經是很大的傷害，但臺中市依舊努力為全國創稅，臺中市是全國第二大城市，112年上繳中央的稅款將近2,200億，回配率卻是近10年來最低，只有40%，拿回869億，回配比例不成正比，我們認為不應該讓好學生受到更多的懲罰。","臺鐵大慶到烏日還有烏日到沙鹿的高架化屬於臺中的重大建設，包括捷運藍線，最近橘線也通過了審查會，交通委員會下禮拜還要到臺中考察橘線跟紫線，這麼多的重大建設都在臺中，但臺中必須要負擔那麼高比例的稅，這對臺中市政府來講極為不公平，所以我想請院長跟部長大力的來幫助臺中市，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：7月1號部長也到臺中考察橘線，進行橘線後續的審查程序，原則上應該是朝正面、通過的方向來走，未來關於它的經濟效益跟財務的評估，希望市政府還要提出更詳細的計畫，我想這部分如果是針對地方所需要的，中央依照所有的財務狀況來合作，這應該就是我們未來要走的路。"],["顏委員寬恒：我再提供給你一些參考數據，臺中烏日──就是高鐵特區，最近高鐵娛樂城也正式動工，臺中高鐵站現在是全國第二大站點，每月出入人次的平均量是220萬人次，從觀光局提供的資料，110年整年度到臺中主要各個觀光遊憩據點的統計是3,900萬人；112年度已經突破了5,000萬人次，所以臺中市目前的發展正在快速成長，需要各項交通的升級跟建設，我想請教院長，你同不同意本席的說法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在均衡臺灣的理念之下，各地都應該有地方所需要的實質建設，臺中的地理位置是在臺灣的正中心，而且它又有相當多觀光、科技等等的發展，我覺得健全大臺中地區的交通建設是中央及地方合作的方向。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們跟立法院副院長，還有市長以及各位委員到臺中高鐵特區參加一個動土典禮，我們看到高鐵娛樂城的開發確實會為臺中帶來更大的發展，但是我們也看到高鐵特區附近66%的車流量都是依靠台74線進入高鐵站、高鐵特區，其他部分像圖示上面的，不管是高鐵東路、高鐵路，還有高鐵五路以及站區一路等等，從周邊的道路還有國道一號進來，未來如果讓這個高鐵娛樂城在115年陸續完工，那高鐵每天平日將增加3.1萬人次，假日的時候會增加4.8萬人次，會讓現在高鐵已經飽和的交通服務水準下降，所以我們現在強烈的建議，希望請交通部部長、行政院院長在國道一號增設烏日交流道，也就是在高鐵站周遭，因為它北側是臺中的五權西路交流道，南側是王田交流道，所以這周邊的交流道要優化，還有台74線的匝道優化之外，希望能夠增設烏日交流道在國道一號，這樣子才能有效的紓解整個高鐵特區以及周遭所有的車流，可不可以？"],["李部長孟諺：委員，我跟您報告一下，這個最大的商場上個禮拜剛動工，這應該是目前全國最大的一個商業設施，它的樓地板面積大概有101的四倍大，所以未來一定會為高鐵特定區帶來非常大的人潮；而且我看它的占地面積就有將近15公頃，這麼大的人潮，目前都是靠台74的匝道進入高鐵站，確實可能會讓高鐵特定區這個地方的交通產生很大的衝擊，所以目前鐵道局也跟臺中市合作，市政府大概有700萬的規劃費來檢討整體的交通，看怎麼樣增加匝道或是用其他的方式，各位看一下剛剛那張圖，國道1號剛好在這個地方有個大轉彎，這個大轉彎的區域半徑目前評估起來，如果要增加匝道，就它的技術規範可能會有一些難度，所以我想整個規劃出來比較可行的方案，看是由台74線來接，還是由原來王田交流道這邊做一個分叉來接，總之，我覺得採用技術上可行的方案來做，會比較有一個整體性。"],["顏委員寬恒：因為台74線是屬於我們公路總局的，國道是屬於高速公路局的，兩者都是中央單位，尤其高鐵娛樂城也是我們鐵道局的促參案，這個東西在這個地方、在國道1號要增設烏日交流道，我相信交通部、行政院責無旁貸，讓這個地方的交通建設能夠提升服務品質，也為了要防止未來整個高鐵特區的交通陷入一個非常困難的情況，所以再請部長把相關的資料……"],["李部長孟諺：這是地方一個很好的建設。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，拜託一下，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝顏委員，謝謝院長還有部長。部長，要超前部署，不然你以後回臺中也會塞到。","我們下一位請呂玉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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破了5000萬人次所以臺中市目前的發展正在快速的成長所以需要各項交通的升級跟建設所以我想請教院長你同不同意本席的說法"},{"start":686.778,"end":710.499,"text":"我們在均衡臺灣的理念之下各地都應該有他地方所需要的事實的建設那臺中是在臺灣的正中心的一個地理位置而且他又有相當多比方觀光啦科技等等的發展我覺得健全臺中大臺中地區的交通建設是中央地方合作的方向我們跟立法院副院長還有市長以及各位委員很多"},{"start":711.357,"end":711.377,"text":"﹚顏寬恒﹚"},{"start":738.268,"end":754.411,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":755.146,"end":782.744,"text":"高鐵運作省在115年陸續完工那高鐵每天這個平日將增加3.1萬人次假日的時候會增加4.8萬人次會讓現在高鐵已經飽和的一個交通的服務水準會下降所以我們現在就強烈的建議說希望在請交通部還有這個部長行政院院長"},{"start":783.942,"end":812.897,"text":"在我們國道1號這個偵測烏日交流道,也就是在我們高鐵,高鐵站周遭,因為它北側是這個臺中的五泉西路交流道,南側是這個王田交流道,所以這周邊的交流道要優化,還有台74線的閘道優化之外,希望能夠偵測烏日交流道國道1號,這樣子才能有效的紓解整個高鐵特區以及周遭所有的車流,可不可以?"},{"start":815.095,"end":838.062,"text":"委員我跟你們報告一下就是上個禮拜剛動工的這個最大的商場這個部分應該是全國目前最大的一個商業設施那它的樓地板面積大概有101的4倍這麼大所以未來一定會為高鐵特定區帶來非常大的人潮因為我看到它佔地面積就有將近15公頃"},{"start":838.882,"end":839.322,"text":"因為剛好,如果看剛剛那張圖"},{"start":868.36,"end":892.868,"text":"國道一剛好在這個地方有一個大轉彎那這個大轉彎的趨利半徑目前評估起來如果要增加紮道跟他的規範技術規範會有一些難度所以我想讓整個規劃一個出來比較可行的方案看是由74來接還是由原來王田交流到這邊來做一個分叉來接技術上可行的方案我覺得來做會比較有一個整體性"},{"start":896.25,"end":922.047,"text":"這個74號是屬於我們公路總局的那國道是高速公路局都是中央那尤其高鐵娛樂城它也是我們鐵道局的出產案這個東西在這個地方國道要偵測烏日交流道我相信交通部行政院責務旁帶能夠讓為這個地方的一個交通建設能夠提升服務品質然後呢也為了防止未來整個高鐵特區它的交通"},{"start":924.329,"end":924.789,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝顏委員"}]}},{"id":"154538","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154538","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e97723bb242a272b869412a25d0aa7d1a498aaf41c1f2943837bf08d13ba3372ad95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"14:30:38 - 14:46:17","影片長度":"00:15:39","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T14:30:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T14:46:17+08:00","duration":939,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":4,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（14時30分）副院長，有請行政院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：卓院長，在我開始正式質詢之前，我想先為我們的行政團隊（你的行政團隊）抱個屈，我覺得行政團隊昨天受到很大的羞辱，身為行政院長，你應該幫他們講講話。你知道昨天發生了什麼事嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你說院內的事嗎？"],["羅委員智強：對啊！立法院發生什麼事？立法院癱瘓了四個委員會啊！你知道哪四個委員會被癱瘓嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：你不清楚？院長，不會吧？行政、立法，你今天要對立法院負責，你的官員們在立法院基本上枯坐一整天，被癱瘓了四個委員會你都不知道？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不知道，我尊重院內在開會……"],["羅委員智強：你的肩膀還真是夠寬，連這麼重要的事都不知道，被癱瘓了內政、經濟、外交及國防委員會，還有司法及法制委員會，你知道為什麼被癱瘓嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：開會不順利是不是？"],["羅委員智強：開會不順利啊？是因為民進黨所有的立法委員跑去霸占內政委員會的主席臺，當然民進黨的委員有一些政治法案上的立場不同，愛霸占就霸占，這也是民進黨的傳統跟慣例，這個就算了……"],["卓院長榮泰：不一定。"],["羅委員智強：這就算了。昨天就發生了！你還說不一定，昨天叫一定！在你的字典叫不一定，在昨天叫一定！我今天要告訴你，民進黨的囂張跟跋扈在哪裡，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不知道。"],["羅委員智強：如果因為選罷法修正案，你不高興你不爽，你要把內政委員會癱瘓，那我想請問你，昨天有外交及國防委員會、NCC、法務部，還有調查局的所有單位，對不對？通傳會的單位，為什麼連外交及國防委員會也要被癱瘓掉？講個道理出來嘛！我想請教，你們的閣員們在那邊因為王定宇落跑，不主持會議，結果搞到所有官員枯坐在那邊，你不為他們覺得委屈嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是尊重院內開會的秩序跟……"],["羅委員智強：不只是外交及國防委員會，經濟委員會也是一樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的部會首長不管哪一天都有很多公務在進行……"],["羅委員智強：還有包括司法及法制委員會也是一樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們部會首長每一天都有很多公務在進行……"],["羅委員智強：我要在這邊跟大家說、跟院長說一件事情，不管你們講任何政治主張，你就是要癱瘓內政委員會，其實這三個委員會都不用陪葬，可是民進黨就是傳統囂張跋扈的文化嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：你不能這樣講……"],["羅委員智強：我今天要癱瘓內政委員會，連當召委的王定宇都可以落跑，當召委的鍾佳濱可以落跑，當召委的邱議瑩可以落跑，落跑三人組嗎？然後讓官員們浪費時間坐在那個地方，官員很辛苦啊！我昨天就問我們法務部次長，洗錢防制法重不重要，請問院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：或許委員應該問問他們三位召委……"],["羅委員智強：我現在想問你，洗錢防制法重不重要嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：任何法案只要行政院送來或是立法院……"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！都重要嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：都是重要的。"],["羅委員智強：很好，態度很正確啊！我也相信那時候出席的法務部次長對於洗錢防制法一定準備很充分啊！可是我上去質詢，沒有主席，無法質詢，所以他不能上來回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：我是建議委員問一問幾位召委……"],["羅委員智強：這就是今天我要告訴你，回頭還是這句話，你民進黨要癱瘓內政委員會，不要連累行政團隊的閣員，我今天站在這裡是因為你不願意幫他們抱屈，我幫他們抱屈啊！他們不是傀儡，也不是道具，不是傀儡坐在那個地方，隨便你民進黨立法院黨團糟蹋啦！三個召委……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，該抱屈的我會抱屈啦，但昨天的狀況……"],["羅委員智強：但你就沒有嘛！我知道你啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員問一下昨天三位召委，他們為什麼不主持會議……"],["羅委員智強：你在民進黨裡面處境困難，我知道，也瞭解，也同情你啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：問一下委員會召委，不應該問我啊！不應該問我啊！該抱屈的我會抱屈……"],["羅委員智強：所以你也不敢幫你的行政團隊抱屈啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：該抱屈的我會抱屈。"],["羅委員智強：今天你們在這邊，那3個無關的委員會被癱瘓掉，你也不敢講話啦！我知道你啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：他們還是每天有很多工作要進行。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，這個問題我問完了，我只是一個結論，很簡單……"],["卓院長榮泰：他們還是很忙的。"],["羅委員智強：我只是一個結論，很簡單，民進黨就是惡霸啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是啦！"],["羅委員智強：囂張啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是啦！委員這樣……"],["羅委員智強：就是惡霸、囂張啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣講話有違質詢的態度，不好啦！"],["羅委員智強：民進黨要癱瘓內政委員會，缺3個召委嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這樣子啦！"],["羅委員智強：請問那3個召委在昨天的責任是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你去問問他們3個召委……"],["羅委員智強：你也當過立法委員喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：我曾經。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！你也曾經當過立法委員啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我也不會這樣子質詢啦！"],["羅委員智強：請問召委的責任是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是……"],["羅委員智強：召委的責任就是召集、主持會議、安排議程，讓官員來備詢啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：把公務做好，誠實回答委員的質詢。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！所以我還是那個結論，很簡單，我也知道你也不敢講什麼啦！我可以體諒你啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這件事情我無法講什麼。"],["羅委員智強：但是我就要講，很簡單……"],["卓院長榮泰：這件事情我無法講……"],["羅委員智強：民進黨昨天做出最壞的示範，沒有討論，沒有民主，連開會都被罷掉、癱瘓掉，民主什麼啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員剛剛講的那句話很正確……"],["羅委員智強：每天喊民主！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有討論，沒有民主，這句話很好。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教你下一個問題，在下一個問題之前，我先講一下，我自己分享一些對臺灣民主發展的一些看法。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["羅委員智強：我在2006年加入國民黨的，事實上，在2000年之前、第一次政黨輪替之前，我不喜歡當時的國民黨，原因有兩個，第一個，當時威權時代的國民黨箝制新聞自由；第二個，當時國民黨一黨獨大，缺乏制衡。事實上，在2000年第一次政黨輪替之前，我也從來沒有投票給國民黨過，1998年高雄市市長選舉，我還投給謝長廷，不是因為我很喜歡謝長廷，單純就是因為我覺得國民黨權力太大，缺乏制衡，我覺得應該要讓民進黨可以得到一些權力來制衡這個獨大的國民黨。不過我倒是沒有想到，結果謝長廷變成這輩子告我告最多的人，因為在關西機場風暴當中，他推卸責任給大阪處，結果害大阪處優秀的外交官犧牲掉，我批評他卸責，他告我兩次，同一件事告我兩次，兩次法院都判他輸，打臉也認證他就是一個卸責的駐日代表。我要講這件事是什麼？告訴今天我們的院長，我一直相信一個民主的鐵律，絕對的權力使人絕對的腐化，國民黨如此，民進黨如此，任何黨也是如此，沒有制衡就沒有民主。","好，我的問題來了，我要跟你討論的第一個題目就是新聞自由，我想請教院長認不認同沒有新聞自由就沒有民主？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，我們全力保障新聞的自由……"],["羅委員智強：對啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是民主重要的條件之一。"],["羅委員智強：嘴巴全力保障新聞自由，來看看實際做了什麼。針對東森新聞臺的政論節目被指遭到大陸媒體盯梢一案，有一個人這麼說：調查這件事情不是很難的事情，如果沒有牽涉複雜情節，一個星期應可公布調查結果。這句話誰說的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說的。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，請問調查結果出來了沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：調查局立案在調查中。"],["羅委員智強：一個禮拜就要出來喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：立案在調查中。"],["羅委員智強：調查中啊！你的態度比較積極。剛好請我們的NCC主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：調查結果怎麼樣，進展如何？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為還有其他部會，這個案子會涉及到陸委會還有國家安全的議題，所以目前來講的話，這相關的資訊我們目前還在瞭解當中。"],["羅委員智強：你們兩個的進度都太慢，行政團隊有一位傑出人才已經把調查結果說出來，你知道是誰嗎？陸委會副主委梁文傑，他比你們兩個更果斷，他直接說：沒有爆料人。結束啦！沒有爆料人嗎？請問一下我們的主委，沒有爆料人嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：目前我們沒有接到任何的檢舉案件。"],["羅委員智強：沒有爆料人……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個我們……"],["羅委員智強：來，請問一下院長，沒有爆料人嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我看到陸委會梁副主委答復的說法，那是他在這個時候他的認知跟他手上的資訊是如此……"],["羅委員智強：個人說法啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：但調查局已經在立案調查中。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！個人說法啦！那我直接問你，兩個自由時報寫盯梢案的記者算不算爆料？"],["卓院長榮泰：哪一位？"],["羅委員智強：自由時報報導這個新聞算不算爆料？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以現在調查局立案調查中。"],["羅委員智強：算不算嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：算不算爆料……"],["羅委員智強：當然算嘛！我們從政這麼久，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：那就是一個資訊的傳遞出來，調查局正在立案調查中。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！資訊傳遞、資訊暴露就是爆料，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他提供訊息，當作爆料也是，但是提供的訊息正確與否，調查局正在調查中。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！這也是嘛！你也知道，也是嘛！你也可以把爆料稱為揭露資訊、揭發新聞嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這個調查局立案調查中，調查是不是屬實……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦，有共識就好，我不是在跟你深究中文，我今天不是在上中國語言學系啦！我現在想請教你，民進黨綽號「早知道」的那位大立委沈伯洋，他說兩個月前就知道，說已經通報了，算不算爆料？"],["卓院長榮泰：那要請他繼續說明。"],["羅委員智強：請他繼續說明，很好！記住這句話，可是梁文傑說沒有爆料人，他顯然不看自由時報，顯然他認為我們的「早知道」大立委沈伯洋是什麼？他認為這不算爆料，還是他認為沈伯洋不是人，所以不是爆料人？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，如果把哪一個委員或哪一個人講的話就當事實的話，那就不需要調查局立案調查啦！"],["羅委員智強：沒有關係，你要切割沈伯洋，要切割梁文傑……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有切割、我沒有切割。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：就是這樣子，才要去立案調查。"],["羅委員智強：這是你卓榮泰一貫的風格，我懂啦！我對你不是沒有瞭解才站在這個地方。梁文傑，你也切割了；沈伯洋，你也切割了，切割得真好！"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有切割、我沒有切割。"],["羅委員智強：至少主委還沒切割，你切割得這麼快！來，我想請教……"],["卓院長榮泰：沈伯洋是立法院裡面的，我們無法切割。"],["羅委員智強：不要緊張，下一個問題請教你，沈伯洋說兩個月前就知悉而且通報了，來，這兩個月，請問行政團隊在幹嘛？掌握訊息了沒有？你掌握訊息了沒有，這兩個月？沈伯洋通報了耶！堂堂民進黨的不分區第二名、男性第一名，民進黨現在的「早知道」英雄──沈伯洋，今天跟你講說已經跟國安團隊通報了，請問你，通報了沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：一個負責的委員接到任何訊息，他或許自己會有查證的義務，所以他是不是在進行這個查證的過程，這個我當然不清楚，但沈委員講出來之後，現在調查局在立案調查當中。"],["羅委員智強：我不是問現在，我問的是兩個月前，他說兩個月前通報的。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以他可能有一段自己查證，這個我不清楚，我真的不瞭解。"],["羅委員智強：院長！"],["卓院長榮泰：我怎麼會去瞭解委員……"],["羅委員智強：不是，兩個月前也許你不瞭解，但是兩個月後，他說他通報了，新聞都已經出來快一個禮拜了，你說一個禮拜可以調查出來，現在跟我講你不知道！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以調查局在調查中，我可以去問嗎？"],["羅委員智強：院長，我想請問你，我跟你問的是他有沒有爆料，連這件事情你到現在搞了一個禮拜都不清楚，那我直接問啦！來，NCC，有沒有跟你爆料？沈伯洋有沒有跟你爆料？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沈委員沒有向NCC檢舉……"],["羅委員智強：非常好！有擔當，一句話嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他跟誰爆料，這個我們不是很清楚。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！沈伯洋沒有跟NCC爆料嘛！那我就問院長，沈伯洋有沒有跟法務部，有沒有跟調查局，有沒有跟地檢署爆料？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：他沒有跟我爆料，但是調查局在調查當中，這個是現在的事實。"],["羅委員智強：沒有，我要先跟你講清楚，待會你就知道我要問什麼。接下來，有沒有跟國安單位爆料？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我怎麼會知道。"],["羅委員智強：你一問三不知，還真是……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員有沒有去跟哪個單位講，我怎麼會知道。"],["羅委員智強：沈伯洋叫「早知道」，你的綽號就叫「三不知」啦，我到目前為止問你問題，你幾乎沒有一個知道，我超級欣賞你！"],["卓院長榮泰：我是不知的就不知、我是不知的就不知。"],["羅委員智強：你還跟我講一個禮拜調查結果要出來，來，我想請教你，今天沈伯洋說已經通報國安單位了，兩個月了，請問國安單位是睡了、廢了，還是殘了？兩個月有沒有進度？有沒有報告？連你都不知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以調查局在調查當中啊！"],["羅委員智強：喔，好厲害啊！趙博離開多久了？新華社記者趙博離開多久了？一個月了啦！你也不知道啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：報紙的講法是5月底離開吧！"],["羅委員智強：對啊！你也不知道啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道他5月底離開……"],["羅委員智強：在兩個月前……"],["卓院長榮泰：但他有沒有做什麼事情……"],["羅委員智強：兩個月前通報，結果他一個多月前離開，我覺得你們國安單位好厲害，行政團隊超級棒欸！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你不能要求我在這裡像當調查員一樣。"],["羅委員智強：我沒有要你當調查員……"],["卓院長榮泰：調查權……"],["羅委員智強：但是你自己拍胸脯保證一個禮拜調查報告會出來啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我有說過，它的背景如果不是很複雜……"],["羅委員智強：結果你到現在也是一問三不知啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：它的背景如果不是很複雜，一個禮拜就會出來。"],["羅委員智強：我直接跟你講啦，到現在為止，我幫你做一個快結論啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛委員所說的那麼多人的講法就是複雜……"],["羅委員智強：你很辛苦了啦！很辛苦了，我做一個快結論啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我不能跟你裝作我什麼都知道。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，你辛苦了啦！因為沈伯洋就是胡說八道啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：那你要問沈委員啊。"],["羅委員智強：他根本沒有通報啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：你要去問沈委員。"],["羅委員智強：不然就把通報單位講出來啊，至少確定NCC沒有，確定你偉大的「三不知」行政院長不知道他跟哪一個單位通報，通報連個通報的窗口都不知道，難怪國安單位睡兩個月啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以調查局在調查。"],["羅委員智強：睡到今天自由時報報導之後，你到現在還是三不知啦！我最後要跟院長說……"],["卓院長榮泰：你再問這個事情我還是不知。"],["羅委員智強：OK，你本來就不知嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！"],["羅委員智強：你十八不知，我都可以不意外。"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道的事情，我告訴你，我不知道的我不會欺騙你。"],["羅委員智強：從頭到尾沈伯洋就在瞎編，就是王立強2號，今天你不敢背書，還要切割梁文傑，我都同意……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有切割，我沒有切割梁文傑。"],["羅委員智強：很簡單，因為你也扛不起。","接下來我就想要問一下，我告訴各位，行政團隊搞了半天，東森新聞台人家是有品牌、有聲譽，報導真相、報導事實，非常努力的新聞台，你認同吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認同新聞媒體的努力……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你，你認同，結果現在我跟你講，院長，我給你一個期待啦！新聞自由不是嘴巴喊喊的，今天包括官員、包括立委、包括綠媒，在抹黑一個客觀公正，然後兢兢業業在守護第四權的東森新聞台，結果你到這邊給我一問四不知、十八不知，積極一點！你說一個禮拜報告交出來，也快到了啦！你什麼時候說的？上禮拜說的吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說背景如果不是很複雜。"],["羅委員智強：喔！背景當然複雜啊！有沈伯洋在都很複雜。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員剛剛講到現在……"],["羅委員智強：還東森新聞台公道，謝謝你。"],["卓院長榮泰：調查局在調查當中，不能期待我當調查員，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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147,"end":473.39,"text":"調查這件事情不是很難的事情。如果沒有牽涉複雜情節,一個星期應可公布調查結果。這句話誰說的?我說的。非常好。請問調查結果出來了沒有?調查局立案在調查中。"},{"start":474.511,"end":479.293,"text":"你們兩個進度都太慢。行政團隊有一位傑出人才已經把調查結果說出來,你知道是誰嗎?"},{"start":502.398,"end":508.56,"text":"主委會副主委梁文傑他比你兩個更果斷他直接說沒有爆料人結束啦"},{"start":510.23,"end":511.53,"text":"兩個自由時報寫丁上岸的記者算不算爆料?"},{"start":542.359,"end":544.902,"text":"兩個自由時報,自由時報報道這個新聞算不算爆料?算不算嘛?"},{"start":549.947,"end":576.501,"text":"算不算爆料?我們重振這麼久,對不對?對啊,資訊傳遞,資訊暴露就是爆料啊,不是嗎?他提供訊息,當作爆料也是,但提供訊息正不正確與否,調查局是調查當中。你也可以稱為把爆料解除而揭露資訊,揭發新聞嘛。沒關係啦,有故事就好,我不跟你再深究中文,今天不上中國語言學系啦。"},{"start":577.621,"end":597.091,"text":"我希望請教你,民進黨綽號早知道的那位大立委沈博洋,他說兩個月前就知道,說已經通報了,算不算爆料?請他繼續說明,很好,講幾乎這句話,可是我們梁文傑說沒有爆料人啊?"},{"start":598.34,"end":625.309,"text":"他顯然自由時報不看啊他顯然我們早知道大立委沈博洋他是什麼他認為這不算爆料還是他認為沈博洋不是人所以不是爆料人報告委如果哪一個委員會哪一個人講的話就當事實的話那就不需要調查立案調查了沒有關係你要切割沈博洋要切割梁文傑我跟你講是你卓榮泰一貫的風格我懂啦對你不是沒有了解才站在這地方嗎"},{"start":626.189,"end":631.734,"text":"聖伯陽你也切割了,切割真好,事實上你的主委還沒切割咧,你切割這麼快。聖伯陽在立法院裡面都無法切割。聖伯陽在立法院裡面都無法切割。聖伯陽說兩個月前就知悉而且通報了。這兩個月請問檢討團在幹嘛?掌握訊息了沒有?你掌握訊息了沒有這兩個月?"},{"start":649.206,"end":675.981,"text":"沈博洋通報了耶!堂堂民進黨的不分區第二名男性第一名民進黨現在的早知道英雄沈博洋今天跟你講說已經跟國安團隊通報了請問你通報了沒有一個負責的委員接到任何的訊息他或許自己會有查證的義務所以他是在進行這個查證的過程這個我當然不清楚但沈委員講出來之後現在調查局在立案調查他之後"},{"start":677.901,"end":706.741,"text":"我問是兩個月前,他說兩個月前通報。所以他可能有一段自己查證,這個我不清楚,我真的不了解。哎,院長。我怎麼會去了解一個委員?不是,你他兩個月前也許你不了解,但是兩個月後他說他通報了,都已經新聞出來快一個禮拜了,你說一個禮拜可以調查出來,現在我講你不知道?所以調查局在調查中,我可以去問嗎?院長,我想請問你啊,我跟你問的是他有沒有爆料欸?"},{"start":708.322,"end":720.348,"text":"你這件事情你到現在搞了一個禮拜都不清楚,那我直接問啦,來NCC有沒有跟你爆料?總會員有沒有跟你爆料?非常好,有擔當嘛,一句話嘛對嘛,沒有跟NCC爆料嘛"},{"start":725.481,"end":740.998,"text":"那我就問院長啊,沈博恩有沒有跟法務部有沒有跟調查局有沒有跟體檢署爆料?有沒有?他沒有跟我們報料,但是調查局在調查當中,這個是現在的事實。沒有,我要先跟你講清楚啦,講清楚啦,待會你就知道我要問什麼。"},{"start":741.886,"end":749.21,"text":"接下來齁有沒有跟國安單位爆料?委員有沒有去跟哪個單位講我怎麼會知道?我到目前為止問你問題幾乎沒有一個知道我超級欣賞你你還跟我講一個月一個禮拜調查結果要出來來我想請教你齁"},{"start":762.93,"end":778.069,"text":"今天沈博洋說已經通報了國安單位了兩個月了我請問國安單位是稅的廢了還是殘了兩個月有沒有進度有沒有報告連你都不知道所以調查局在調查當中啊噢好厲害啊趙博離開多久了新華社記者趙博離開多久了"},{"start":783.564,"end":800.316,"text":"一個月了啦!你也不知道啦!對啊!你也不知道啦!我知道他五月底離開啊!那兩個月前!兩個月前通報!結果!他一個多月前離開!欸我覺得你們國安單位好厲害!行政團隊超級棒欸!"},{"start":800.876,"end":815.9,"text":"委員你不能要求我在你當調查員一樣我沒有要你當調查員但是你自己拍胸脯保證一個禮拜調查報告都會出來阿結果你到現在是一問三不知阿我直接跟你講啦我剛剛委員所說的那麼多人的這個講法就是複雜阿我不能跟你裝作我什麼都知道阿因為"},{"start":824.543,"end":848.465,"text":"神不敢就是胡說八道啦!他根本沒有通報啦!不然就找通報單位講出來啊!至少確定NCC沒有,確定你偉大三不知行政院院長不知道他跟哪一個單位通報啦!通報連個通報的窗口都不知道啦!難怪國安單位睡兩個月啦!睡到今天自由時報報導之後,你到現在還是三不知啦!"},{"start":849.363,"end":865.982,"text":"我最後跟院長說,你本來就不知嘛,你18不知我都不理你。從頭到尾審判就瞎編,就是王立強二號。今天你不敢背書他要切割梁文傑,我覺得都同意你。很簡單,因為你也扛不起。"},{"start":868.39,"end":893.057,"text":"接下來我就要想問一下我告訴各位行政團隊搞了半天都升新聞台人家是有品牌有聲譽報導真相報導事實非常努力的新聞台你認同吧我認同這個謝謝你啊但你認同結果現在我跟你講為什麼院長我給你一個期待啦新聞自由不是嘴巴喊喊的"},{"start":894.042,"end":911.235,"text":"今天包括官員包括說立委包括綠媒在抹黑一個客觀公正然後兢兢業業在守護第四權的東森新聞台結果你到這邊你跟我一問事不知十八不知"},{"start":912.372,"end":914.433,"text":"好,謝謝羅委員。謝謝卓院長。下一位我們請嚴寬衡委員之選。"}]}},{"id":"154537","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154537","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e97f7a1da68c2976d89412a25d0aa7d1a49e3ec3449798306d28fc1c8a01bc256bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:16:27 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09:19:44","影片長度":"00:03:17","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\r\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\r\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-05","start_time":"2024-07-05T09:16:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-05T09:19:44+08:00","duration":197,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":26,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時16分）高齡悲歌，民進黨看到了嗎？蔡英文承諾的12萬戶社會住宅，賴清德8年都蓋不完，而獨居老人過去8年暴增250%，別讓臺灣出現高齡悲歌！蔡英文在2016年上任前承諾蓋12萬戶社會住宅，而當我跟內政部詢問未來社宅完工規劃時，內政部非常誠實地說，到2031年，涵蓋已經完工的3萬戶，總共能夠完工的就是10.2萬戶，白紙黑字告訴我們即便賴清德再當兩任總統，到2031年都沒有辦法完成蔡英文所承諾的12萬戶社會住宅，而賴清德總統還加碼8年要蓋25萬戶！","社宅興建緩慢、高齡化加速、房價物價居高不下的時候，首當其衝的就是高齡長者的居住權跟生存權。過去8年，我國65歲以上長者居住社會住宅的比例，從5.46%增加到12.83%，獨居長者宅數的比例從4.09%成長到10.25%，漲幅分別是2.35倍跟2.5倍。這些數據都告訴我們，落實高齡者居住正義是非常重要也迫切的。","銀髮族不一定是經濟弱勢，但現實生活就是許多長者常常有錢也租不到房子，因為房東可能認為長者經濟收入不穩定，或者怕長者在住處往生、影響房價。但根據住宅法第二十五條第二項訂定的內政部興辦社會住宅出租辦法第十一條規定，社會住宅租賃跟續租最長為12年，如果65長者承租社會住宅12年後接近80歲的高齡，依照現行法規就要被趕出去。80歲不只是經濟無法負擔一般房租，即便是負擔了，也沒有力氣搬家，沒有力氣適應新環境，這就是所謂的高齡悲歌。","因此，這次修法羅智強主張修改住宅法第二十五條規定，要解開現行法規中社會住宅最多只能住12年的硬上限，對65歲以上長者承租社會住宅時，應該要延長租賃跟續租期限，避免高齡悲歌。所以希望我們的民進黨政府可以廣納這一條善言，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員的發言。","報告院會，現在登記國是論壇發言的委員均已發言完畢，現在休息。","休息（9時19分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳菁徽","洪孟楷","張嘉郡","許宇甄","羅智強"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"1136601_00007"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.796593750000003,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.39971875,"end":18.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.04909375,"end":25.512218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.832843750000002,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.469718750000002,"end":29.309093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.680343750000002,"end":31.148468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.418468750000002,"end":33.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.32534375,"end":34.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.48534375,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.56034375,"end":46.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.078468750000006,"end":58.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.025968750000004,"end":76.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.72346875000001,"end":83.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.84909375000001,"end":85.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.27909375,"end":89.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.83971875,"end":90.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.32471875,"end":95.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.47596875,"end":97.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.29409375,"end":99.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.08284375000001,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.05284375000001,"end":109.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.80284375000001,"end":113.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.61659375,"end":120.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.22721875,"end":123.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.65721875000001,"end":135.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.39784375000002,"end":137.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.46096875,"end":144.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.61159375,"end":149.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.74596875,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.70659375,"end":169.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.57409375,"end":174.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.29471875000002,"end":194.81909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.824,"end":39,"text":"高齡悲歌民進黨看到了嗎?蔡英文承諾的12萬戶社會住宅賴清德8年都蓋不完而獨居老人過去8年暴增250%別讓台灣出現高齡悲歌蔡英文在2016年上任前承諾蓋12萬戶社會住宅"},{"start":41.636,"end":56.792,"text":"而當我跟內政部詢問未來設宅完工規劃時,內政部非常誠實說到2031年涵蓋已經完工的3萬戶,總共能夠完工的就是10.2萬戶。"},{"start":59.076,"end":73,"text":"白紙黑字告訴我們即便賴清德再當兩任總統到2031年都沒有辦法完成蔡英文所承諾的12萬戶社會住宅而賴清德總統還加碼8年要蓋25萬戶"},{"start":77.802,"end":95.809,"text":"社宅興建緩慢高齡化加速房價物價居高不下的時候首當其衝就是高齡長者的居住權跟生存權。過去8年我國65歲以上長者居住社會住宅的比例從5.46%增加到12.83%"},{"start":103.297,"end":120.066,"text":"獨居長者宅數的比例從4.09成長到10.25分別漲幅是2.35倍跟2.5倍。這些數據都告訴我們落實高齡者居住正義是非常重要也迫切的。"},{"start":121.274,"end":143.859,"text":"引髮族不一定是經濟弱勢但現實生活就是許多長者常常有錢也租不到房子因為房東可能認為長者經濟收入不穩定或者怕長者在住處往生影響房價但根據住宅法第25條第二項制定的內政部新辦社會住宅出租辦法11條規定"},{"start":145.686,"end":168.698,"text":"社會住宅租賃跟續租最長為12年,如果65歲長者曾租社會住宅,12年後接近80歲的高齡,依照現行法規就要被趕出去。80歲不只是經濟無法負擔一般房租,即便是負擔了也沒有力氣搬家,沒有力氣適應新環境,這就是所謂的高齡杯哥。"},{"start":169.619,"end":194.222,"text":"因此這次修法羅智強主張修改住宅法25條規定要解開現行法規社會住宅最多只能住12年的硬上限對65歲以上長者成豬社會住宅時應該要延長租賃跟續租期限避免高齡杯葛所以希望我們的民進黨政府可以廣納這一條善言謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154536","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154536","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e97678192ad8689619e412a25d0aa7d1a49e3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籠罩在我們的生活中,不但完全沒有終止的跡象,而且越來越嚴重。過去這幾年來,政府喊了相當多的打詐口號,但是根據警政署的統計,2020年臺灣詐騙的案件涉案金額為42.5億。"},{"start":45.999,"end":48.381,"text":"到了202121年變成了56億。2022年的69.5億。到了2023年直接成長到88億。年年增長。然而這些數字只是有報案的數字。根據全球反詐聯盟GASA統計。"},{"start":68.9,"end":69.281,"text":"台灣2022年到2023年之間因為詐騙財產損失已經高達2000億。"},{"start":78.936,"end":79.216,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":100.049,"end":106.893,"text":"詐欺案件發生數為38000多件,較前年增加8314件,增加了28.17%。"},{"start":113.78,"end":134.036,"text":"﹗"},{"start":134.096,"end":160.937,"text":"打詐已經有了成效,卻沒有追根就底,永遠也彌平不了人民的血淚與損失。詐騙的首腦依舊逍遙法外,百姓依舊徬徨無助。除了查緝以外,從源頭杜絕詐騙的管道更是重中之重,尤其網路詐騙已經成為詐騙主要的手段。"},{"start":162.098,"end":184.279,"text":"數位部應該扛起重大責任為人民把關,而不是面線點得到,打詐騙卻打不到。數位部在2022年成立以來,2022年正是詐騙金額成長最高的一年,多麼的諷刺。"},{"start":186.341,"end":198.374,"text":"詐騙就是國安危機。詐騙造成無數家庭陷入困境,對社會互信的傷害。這是政府的失職與怠惰。"}]}},{"id":"154534","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154534","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e972f1a5efcf962bbfe412a25d0aa7d1a49e3ec3449798306d2563cb0ca640d278f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:06:00 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