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結論從來也沒有這樣子的規定它就是我們在立法程序當中的一環那"},{"start":2131.109,"end":2148.409,"text":"出現了這樣的狀況沒有辦法召開協商那我們該進行的立法程序也進行完了那接下來在院會裡面我覺得該怎麼處理就怎麼處理吧"},{"start":2150.566,"end":2151.126,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2166.32,"end":2193.038,"text":"沉重而且沉痛的一個抗議。」因為據我所知在上個禮拜五我們到七點多的時候院長其實離開的時候已經先宣布了今天下午應該是兩點半開始協商但後來因為民進黨團的強力要求才說改成三點鐘本來民進黨團是要求今天四點後來折衷是三點鐘三點鐘也是民進黨團提出來的這是第一第二今天討論電業法考試院人事"},{"start":2195.956,"end":2206.83,"text":"打詐釋法、刑事訴訟法及國家通訊傳播組織法．這些不重要嗎?這些不關乎民生議題嗎?這些不是民進黨團也有自己的條文嗎?"},{"start":2208.231,"end":2236.645,"text":"下面不只我們今天立案的幾個部會包括經濟部長包括台電董事長總經理等還有包括十多個中央機關都有列席五個法案今天民進黨團說不來就不來是把國家公務員是把其他黨團是把院長完全都沒有放在眼裡嗎我覺得這件事情是非常非常離譜再者院長我想今天利用"},{"start":2238.281,"end":2258.939,"text":"這個草野協商也特別向您報告今天早上立法院有發生過去沒發生過委員直接破壞門鎖進入到委員會會議室四點五十三分破壞門鎖進入到會議室五點多的時候就有民進黨團的總召帶著民進黨的委員魚貫進入"},{"start":2262.745,"end":2277.873,"text":"我們想問過去議場在第十屆的時候有確定因為之前也有民進黨的委員從議場後門進入到議場也因此當時做成朝野協商結論就是以後都"},{"start":2278.453,"end":2305.62,"text":"一致規定七點鐘只開放議場前左邊的這一個門其餘三方的門都是七點半才開就是要有公平一致的原則我再次強調當時就是在第十屆的時候民進黨的委員從後門進入到議場也因此當前門打開的時候我們已經排隊準備好進去一打開才發覺說民進黨委員已經坐在主席台上而當時經過朝野協商確定"},{"start":2307.8,"end":2334.406,"text":"所有以後都是開7點鐘準時開前面左邊的門其餘的三個門是7點30分才準時開啟那我們委員會的部分也要不要確認第一是不是應該要換一個更好的鎖不能讓任何小小或是任何委員能夠這樣破壞門鎖就可以直接進入第二是不是我們要有一個一致的規定我想"},{"start":2335.106,"end":2361.459,"text":"院長今天我提出來是不是請您可以請秘書長或是相關的人員來研擬但我們要強力的譴責這樣子破壞會議室破壞議事規則破壞門鎖的犯罪行為我想這已經構成一個犯罪行為監視器都已經看到了尤其身為立法委員應當以身作則這一點我們也提出強烈譴責譴責民進黨團用非法的手段破壞門鎖進入委員會"},{"start":2363.82,"end":2364.26,"text":"主腦開會的過程 。」"},{"start":2393.178,"end":2422.168,"text":"三、研商有關〈刑罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯�"},{"start":2424.517,"end":2444.77,"text":"已經發生民進黨帶著鎖匠一大早來開門今天更誇張今天為民進黨立委不曉得是熟能生巧還是過去的長夜慣犯是他直接來開門帶著東西直接來開門"},{"start":2451.448,"end":2480.298,"text":"那一位不管是助理也好還是誰也好不是那位開的因為那個畫面我們都已經看過了那開完了以後啊然後接下來就民進黨克總召愚慣的進入大概在四點五十多分的時候所以我們六點鐘到達我們的會議室結果發現裡面是有人的我們七點開門嘛就發現裡面是有人的"},{"start":2481.257,"end":2509.075,"text":"但在七點鐘門不是從外面開是從裡面開而且冷氣也開了很久了燈也開了因為一進去第一個就看到柯總召帶的十幾個人坐在內政委員會的主席台上面我們現在到底是要請院長、立法院如果再這樣沒有次序連未來這些立委人身安全都有很大的問題"},{"start":2512.95,"end":2535.454,"text":"之前國會改革的部分我們在草野協商在院長室草野協商被民進黨立委禁錮禁錮到我要打電話報警上個禮拜四民進黨柯總召帶隊又公然禁錮內政委員會十一位議事人員這個是從"},{"start":2538.331,"end":2566.626,"text":"中華民國在台灣以來．立法院史上第一次發生．第一次發生．醫事人員被禁錮．連上廁所都不行．我們在跟他通話的過程當中．我們要改到．秦賢隆一零一開會．因為紅樓．二零二已經被民進黨霸佔了．結果我們請醫事人員過來．醫事人員說他每一位都被監控．連上廁所都不行．"},{"start":2569.241,"end":2585.45,"text":"所以我覺得在這裡真的要請院長到底要怎麼樣這個國會才有一定的法定的次序我想這個還要請院長來主持"},{"start":2588.953,"end":2613.381,"text":"請問郭部長還有各位列席的官員,我想後面就跟電業法無關了。我也知道大家都非常的忙,你們先就請回。那明天我們在審查電業法的時候再麻煩大家好嗎?好,我們先讓行政官員先離開,後面很多都是我們院本部的事情。對官員打攪他們的寶貴時間我想也不太好。請,好不好?謝謝部長,謝謝各位列席的官員,謝謝大家。"},{"start":2614.329,"end":2617.331,"text":"民進黨的那個黃總召有沒有話要繼續發言還是因為這個輪流"},{"start":2636.992,"end":2652.922,"text":"張七凱委員發言完,那就變成羅志強委員,必須要發言。如果你發言完,羅志強委員就可以有發言的資格,這平行的好不好?好,我必須要跟你報告一下。好,請。院長跟各個委員,事實上時間都很寶貴。當然現在院長先讓經濟部長他們回去了。可是從上個禮拜四,他們癱瘓的四個委員會,"},{"start":2659.653,"end":2682.409,"text":"有二十多位的部會首長在那邊哭咒了一整天,讓我們立法院的資金權都被沒收了,那今天早上又重大覆測,今天更可惡了,他們不只開了手進去啊,你看我們台灣民眾黨是有主體性和主動性的,我們自己要提案子,我們對選發法是有對案的,結果案子也沒辦法提,我去登記發言從上禮拜四到現在,我一句話到現在都沒辦法講。"},{"start":2683.953,"end":2712.225,"text":"我們要表示嚴正的抗議．所以拜託院長這一塊要就是讓怎麼讓委員能夠開會這是一個事情這要解決第二個我今天試一下今天五個案子都是跟民生有那麼重要的民進黨自己在說民生跟經濟多重要電力法今天為什麼要協商我們台灣民眾黨提電價要動漲講了多久國民黨要求電價不能漲對不對所以後來兩邊都有提案啊國民黨跟台灣民眾黨都提了案啊所以才需要今天要協商啊"},{"start":2713.675,"end":2736.04,"text":"事業已經漲了電價了,到今天要協商又不來,民進黨又不來,那人民的聲音怎麼出來?人民要停電跳電那麼苦,你的事業要漲了電價,你那個機制到底要怎麼去把它完整?我們今天是帶著提案來,要跟他們好好協商的,他們又不來。我要問第一個,醫藥開的事情到底有把它改過嗎?第二,以後他協商都不來怎麼辦?"},{"start":2737.04,"end":2739.701,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":2767.11,"end":2791.997,"text":"我想真的辛苦也為難院長了事實上這次民進黨你可以看到就是對立法院完全的不尊重那除了說在上個禮拜四我說實在話啦他癱瘓內政委員會已經是很糟糕了內政委員會他們常常講沒有討論沒有民主嘛那討論選辦法你反對很正常嘛"},{"start":2792.777,"end":2793.898,"text":"事由．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":2813.922,"end":2828.254,"text":"然後今天也一樣繼續癱瘓內政委員會然後接下來草野協商已經訂好都說好了他也不來那我覺得民進黨的做法很簡單就是說你今天草野協商來開會他說好他不來"},{"start":2831.104,"end":2847.296,"text":"不來以後然後如果說他今天沒有辦法因為他一直缺席沒辦法召開草野協商等到最後程序走完他會跟你講說沒有討論沒有民主所以我才說院長真的是非常為難就是說反正怎麼樣講都是他他要贏那另外當然剛剛總召還有剛剛那個齊凱都已經講到了"},{"start":2851.605,"end":2872.185,"text":"這一屆的我們的國會光這個禮拜發生兩件已經打破紀錄的事情第一個就是民進黨為了癱瘓內政委員會居然去拘束議事人員嚴格來講這已經有強制罪的問題了他把議事人員拘束在場域裡面連上廁所都不行"},{"start":2874.256,"end":2890.857,"text":"對那接下來今天也是一樣啊今天就是你今天自己帶人進來開鎖開門那請問我們的立法院的這個公共安全及立法院我們的國會尊嚴在哪裡所以這個事情真的我也覺得院長坦白講我一直覺得"},{"start":2891.798,"end":2918.413,"text":"立法院院長這一屆韓院長是歷來最辛苦的院長,真的大家有目共睹,因為草以下全部都全程公開。但是這個國會尊嚴的問題,真的如果不解決,我覺得這一屆也不知道國會要如何應做了。以上。特別跟各位黨團幹部還有各位委員報告,如果說外面的所將能夠來開我們不同委員會的門,就代表了"},{"start":2919.571,"end":2930.796,"text":"外面的所將可以開任何一個立法院研究室的門這不是光國會尊嚴還一個國會安全所以說這個事情我們剛剛開眾民友就跟大家報告這到底是委員"},{"start":2932.096,"end":2956.713,"text":"本身還是助理還是外面所將,我們現在在查這件事情。查完之後,也必須要跟各位黨團幹部做一個報告,我們處理的方式。我想這件事情是相當嚴重,因為我們也沒有發生過這樣的事情。我想這次協商,我們明天早上就麻煩大家,我們九點半到下午三點,我們盡可能"},{"start":2958.894,"end":2983.954,"text":"先跟院長報告一下對院長沒不敬的意思我今天早上我自己也要總諮詢啊我工作就排了嘛總諮詢時間是反正這一組就十五分鐘嘛我會想辦法啦就拜託黨團其他的幹部來但我要說的事情是說其實我們大家針對這個院長召集的黨團協商我們一直很配合"},{"start":2985.429,"end":3011.476,"text":"但我覺得可能還是要回到我們之前我有一次在黨團協商的時候其實我開宗明義問過的議事規則就法案出了委員會如果要協商、召集過協商那協商沒有成立因為協商來這邊就是共識決嘛協商沒成立就沒成立了嘛那我們就可以定期交院會處理我想要再度的因為針對這麼簡單的議事規則"},{"start":3014.946,"end":3034.594,"text":"那一直有人在胡說八道講一堆有的沒的我想要再度確認規則我們立法院的規則應該是這樣我對於立法院自決刑事法的理解應該沒有錯誤吧那謝謝黃國昌總召我在這提醒我們請周秘書長再次跟各位報告因為黃委員提了很多次啦"},{"start":3035.305,"end":3041.348,"text":"事由．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":3063.909,"end":3066.172,"text":"條例草案（事由．一、研商有關"},{"start":3083.593,"end":3093.938,"text":"一定是能弄齊這個一個月後怎麼去認定一定按照當時在第九屆所做的這個情況來處理。"}]}},{"id":"16080","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16080","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b73ade72829c64ed24c05d0b3147a6070451e21807e44d844f242ceca9577839e234ab94b72c5e5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十條、第七十一條及第七十三條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十條、第七十一條及第七十三條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-08T13:21:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T17:30:00+08:00","duration":14888,"影片長度":"04:08:08","委員發言時間":"13:21:52 - 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Kacaw等19人擬具公職人員選舉罷免法第七十條、第七十一條及第七十三條條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具公職人員選舉罷免法第七十條、第七十一條及第七十三條條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具公職人員選舉罷免法第七十一條及第七十三條條文修正草案。"},{"start":1045.094,"end":1049.679,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案。四、審查委員吳秉瑞等21人擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":1061.172,"end":1085.814,"text":"今日議事錄已經宣讀完畢,議程所列的討論事項來合併詢答。現在介紹在場委員和練習官員,如圈套不明冊,我們就不一一介紹。我們現在請提案委員說明提案要址,"},{"start":1087.236,"end":1099.752,"text":"請高金素梅委員提案與說明,高委員不提案,不說明。請鄭天財委員提案與說明,鄭天財委員不說明。"},{"start":1102.135,"end":1120.712,"text":"請吳立華委員提案說明。請吳立華委員提案說明。請吳立華委員提案說明。吳立華委員不在沒有說明。請盧縣一委員提案說明。"},{"start":1121.713,"end":1135.386,"text":"不屑一委員提案不說明。請吳秉樂委員提案說明。請吳秉樂委員提案說明。請吳秉樂委員提案說明。吳秉樂委員不在場。請內政部劉世芳。"},{"start":1142.432,"end":1156.689,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1159.088,"end":1183.643,"text":"其他單位的報告請委員執行參與並刊登報告。我們現在進行詢答。委員執行前我做一下幾點報告。本會還有原住民發言的時間因為現在比較混亂一點。我們呢就現在先不暫停我們的詢答。"},{"start":1186.243,"end":1207.448,"text":"那因為今日的議會我們要處理法案本次的會議我們就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有好我們現在各位委員會報告"},{"start":1219.138,"end":1239.061,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":1253.08,"end":1254.502,"text":"職選債的委員安靜一下。"},{"start":1276.402,"end":1295.219,"text":"我們現在請內政委員會有登記發言的委員來發言。我們請內政委員會有發言的委員來發言。請徐宇貞委員發言。謝謝。"},{"start":1304.382,"end":1311.652,"text":"主席,還有各位部會首長大家好。我們是不是請內政部劉部長、中選會陳副主委發言。"},{"start":1314.649,"end":1340.52,"text":"現在實在是這一次針對選罷法的連署條件我們希望能夠連署的名冊不能只有填姓名身份證字號出生年月日戶籍地址然後簽名蓋章我們已經看到坊間有很多都是往生者連署或者是都是抄名冊我們隨便在網路上就會看到一堆有身份證字號的名冊"},{"start":1341.44,"end":1363.222,"text":"所以我們可以覺得現在的聯署的這個條件有非常大的問題所以我們這個部分是不是能夠好好的來討論聯署的這個問題啊當然我們也希望避免不肖者的收集個資操弄罷免的制度檢附身份證影本也是一個方案今天討論的吳秉瑞的提案也是一個方案"},{"start":1364.71,"end":1381.536,"text":"既然這麼亂,我們停止發言,提議停止發言,主席提議停止發言,主席提議停止發言,主席提議停止發言,好,現在"},{"start":1383.696,"end":1395.554,"text":"徐宇珍委員有提議停止發言請問有無異議?沒有我們沒有異議我們現在停止發言休息"},{"start":1444.9,"end":1445.841,"text":"主席已經離開了!"},{"start":1471.056,"end":1485.332,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條條文修正草"},{"start":1485.752,"end":1509.047,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條條文修正草案"},{"start":1510.589,"end":1539.068,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第18條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第18條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第18條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第18條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第18條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭"},{"start":1541.21,"end":1545.715,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":1665.772,"end":1677.124,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1725.862,"end":1736.165,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":1738.357,"end":1760.916,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2005.93,"end":2007.258,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":2081.903,"end":2082.346,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":2155.27,"end":2159.377,"text":"民黨智庫講的啊,整個提高門檻就是要救你們的立委啊。"},{"start":2222.592,"end":2223.969,"text":"黑箱罷免稿黑"},{"start":2356.189,"end":2356.829,"text":"委委委委委委委委"},{"start":8476.903,"end":8479.514,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":9363.78,"end":9365.333,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":9647.91,"end":9648.507,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":9893.148,"end":9894.033,"text":"職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra 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那我們現在先介紹法務部部長鄭明謙部長然後法務部廉政署署長馮誠司法院刑事廳副廳長陳信啟選舉部法規司副司長藍夏穎好 那其餘的列入公報紀錄"},{"start":2121.015,"end":2140.445,"text":"好請議事人員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱討論提綱一有關揭弊者保護法以下簡稱本法草案之立法政策就應採行公私分立公部門先行公私合併公私合併上市上櫃板或公私分流行政立法雙軌並行何者為宜"},{"start":2142.586,"end":2159.174,"text":"前開基礎架構差異分析其利弊為何二倘若行政院提案版本採取公部門立法先行司部門以行政指導推動會避免影響司部門之揭弊行為由各產業分別定定規定司部門揭弊之作為"},{"start":2159.974,"end":2159.994,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":2185.53,"end":2209.576,"text":"在邀請各位發言之前我先做幾點說明第一個 專家學者發言順序就依照我們今天簽到的順序先後為之如果有要提前發言的可以先告訴我主席台這邊那我們會予以著意調整本位的委員就是按照登記先後發言如果陸續到場的話我們再穿插各位委員的發言"},{"start":2210.816,"end":2211.016,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2228.311,"end":2250.971,"text":"主席的左邊這個是委員的發言台由於公聽會主要是在提取各位專家學者的意見所以每位專家學者發言的時間是10分鐘本院委員發言的時間是5分鐘我們現在開始請專家學者發言首先我們請第一位的林志傑教授發言"},{"start":2260.436,"end":2274.709,"text":"親愛的召委還有部長署長各位行政的長官在此的專家先進們以及列席的行政同仁大家早安大家好很感謝今天司法及法制委員會能夠安排這個非常重要的主題"},{"start":2275.65,"end":2290.716,"text":"我國的廉政署從2011年成立成立以後第一個最重要的法案就是揭弊者保護法草案所以從2012年其實由我個人還有很尊敬的李聖傑老師以及許多的專家學者就針對我國是否應該去設立揭弊者保護的專法"},{"start":2295.538,"end":2296.338,"text":"委託研究案"},{"start":2318.283,"end":2344.543,"text":"所以如果能夠把公司部門合併一起來做揭弊者保護可能會更適宜於是後來廉政署又將公司部門合併列出了另外一版的草案但是我國因為有兩個非常重要的因素使得揭弊者的推動一直不勝順利第一個當然是文化的因素因為在亞洲社會裡面忠誠或者是組織的一些這個陸力以赴常常會被"},{"start":2345.003,"end":2363.465,"text":"此揭弊者有一個污名化的狀況第二個是臺灣過去曾經經歷過50年的這個戒嚴時期跟白色恐怖揭弊者很容易造成大家覺得匪諜就在你身邊有一種隨時會遭到檢舉的壓力那當然另外一個就是在公司部門合併以後"},{"start":2364.466,"end":2387.782,"text":"司法部門的規模產業類別非常多元一概是用同一個專法可能會造成對一些小型業者或者是對揭弊者反而可能有更不利的狀況稍後會予以說明那麼過去這十幾年來其實我們的法制也革新日益的不同尤其是我們加入了聯合國反貪腐公約至今已經做過兩次的國際審查"},{"start":2388.843,"end":2407.974,"text":"每一次國際審查的專家的結論跟建議性報告都提到台灣作為一個民主法治的國家必須要對於這個弊案可以防患於未然應該要更早能夠來對揭弊者進行這個保護使得重大的犯罪可以在早期的時候被發現被預防"},{"start":2409.515,"end":2429.185,"text":"所以其實我們兩次在國家報告的過程裡面因為我個人都全程的參與也協助我國的政府在第一線去為我們的政策來辯護那我覺得國際的專家學者是可以了解我們需要更多的時間但是我覺得我國的政府也不能夠因此在立法上面就有所延誤"},{"start":2430.646,"end":2451.767,"text":"一方面要積極的跟社會進行溝通二方面我覺得還是有可以做一些精進的作為所以以下分兩個部分來說明第一個是現行的我有看到各位委員所提出的版本可能產生的問題以及未來應如何的凝聚共識第二點在專法還沒有通過之前我們還可以做哪些事情"},{"start":2453.047,"end":2474.413,"text":"相關的詳細書面資料剛剛已經提供本期的當代法學的期刊剛好我個人就撰寫一篇論文由於是7月15號才出刊特別情商這個出版社能夠讓我今天提供在立法院的內部使用本文因為還需要做最後的三教所以麻煩大家先不要流傳但是引用的部分應該是沒有問題"},{"start":2475.513,"end":2492.747,"text":"首先第一個揭弊者最重要的保護有三個也就是身份的保密工作安全的保障以及人身安全的保護但是這三保會跟我們揭弊的範圍公司部門是不是合併是否需內部通報先行等都會有所差異"},{"start":2493.988,"end":2519.562,"text":"因此這邊就產生了幾個難題第一個公部門跟私部門需不需要合併第二個哪些行為可以該當所謂的公益揭弊因為公益的範圍非常廣比如說當我今天去揭弊一個私部門的主管有婚外情這是公益嗎答案是他可能是可能不是因為倘若今天他是有侵占公款的狀況那這又是一個上市櫃公司他可能就是公益"},{"start":2520.302,"end":2534.207,"text":"可是如果我們的範圍如此的鉅細靡遺﹐恐怕會失去真正公義保護的目的﹐所以到底它的範圍要放得多寬﹐哪些行為的違反會被當作是合理的公義揭弊﹐這個是第一個我們遇到的爭點"},{"start":2535.507,"end":2550.657,"text":"再來就是不是要內部通報先行比如說有一些國家在大型企業裡面他會認為揭弊其實是一個神秘課的概念他是幫助企業內部的自我矯正也就是說企業可能因為他太多層級了所以他不容易發現弊端"},{"start":2552.279,"end":2572.342,"text":"這個時候揭弊其實是很好的幫助企業上級者能夠做好管理所以他要求你要內部揭弊但以我國90%可能都是中小企業來說的話你要求內部揭弊先行他如果內部只剩下20個人或30個人那麼他一旦揭弊他的身份保密就蕩然無存"},{"start":2572.902,"end":2598.261,"text":"所以如果要內部揭弊先行也必須考慮產業的類別跟產業的規模再來就是揭弊是否要檢據合理的事證那這一點當然非常重要一定要有可信的基礎否則的話揭弊就會變成黑函滿天飛變成一種政治的鬥爭或者是彼此互相攻擊這個不管對公部門的施政或私部門的企業運作都會產生非常大的傷害"},{"start":2599.202,"end":2599.602,"text":"揭弊是否因訴及既往"},{"start":2629.102,"end":2645.32,"text":"所以到底應該怎麼樣去保護揭弊者包括對共犯也就是本身自己也涉入犯罪的人他的揭弊的幽會跟減免應該到什麼程度那以上這些都是我們今天可以一個一個來請教專家學者的議題那因為是第一位發言"},{"start":2645.82,"end":2647.202,"text":"揭弊者保護法草案之基礎架構差異與利弊影響"},{"start":2664.477,"end":2687.327,"text":"在這些有特許事業政府長有行權政府長有金融的特許醫療的特許那麼我覺得特許事業裡面的揭弊也許是可以先用行政指導的方式來要求他先做第二個是政府有相當多的公營事業比如說我們政府有這個占股50%以上的公營事業或者是政府作為大股東的事業"},{"start":2687.867,"end":2702.462,"text":"那就代表這個事業體裡面是納稅人的付出那既然有納稅人的公部門的金錢在裡頭我覺得公營事業或者是政府占大股東的事業你應該要先做沒有道理政府不做然後叫私人企業先行"},{"start":2703.283,"end":2726.125,"text":"最後一個是政府的採購 既然今天這個司部門的企業你是來承攬政府的這個採購或者是政府的公共工程 那麼各位可以看到民眾之所以擔心弊案會發生 不外乎是因為如果有一些涉及重大公安的工程發生弊案可能對人民的生命身體財產安全造成非常大的傷害"},{"start":2726.966,"end":2754.885,"text":"所以如果今天在採購政府的公共工程的時候我們可以在公共工程的標案中去要求採購的廠商必須建置一定的揭弊者吹哨者保護的制度那當然這個時候我們把它列為或者是成標的一個要件或者是在簽約中要求對方一定要有保護不然的話可以給付一個違約金就我們可以在設計上用各種不同的方法"},{"start":2755.305,"end":2755.686,"text":"揭弊者保護必須更細緻化、類型化"},{"start":2770.869,"end":2790.203,"text":"也就是說目前如果我們一定要推一個公司部門的專法那麼在私部門的部分尤為謹慎那麼我必須要講的一點就是說私部門還是應該要有揭弊者保護我覺得這個是台灣不可迴避的一件事情只是他的保護不能影響私部門的安全"},{"start":2790.803,"end":2790.923,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2813.217,"end":2841.308,"text":"我覺得在目前的專法裡面是沒有看到的還是必須要有一個國家法議跟重大的社會法議之間的一個權衡那最後要談的就是說揭弊者這個草案其實已經出來非常久的時間12年了那我建議就是說很多事情可以先做我們不用氣急一步就要推專法因為專法裡面有剛剛提到的非常多難以凝聚共識或者需要更多時間去凝聚共識的點"},{"start":2842.388,"end":2868.153,"text":"但是以剛剛說的這三個我覺得是可以先做的因為我們在座也有金管會的長官事實上金管會早在四五年前就透過內機內控的辦法要求各大金融業者必須要先做好內部的吹哨者保護制度我覺得這應該是特許事業一個非常好的示範那以上是我今天的發言那文章也提供給各位那歡迎各位進一步的討論也在此向大家就教 謝謝"},{"start":2869.213,"end":2870.056,"text":"王理事長發言"},{"start":2884.259,"end":2910.868,"text":"主席部長署長各位官員長官各位委員大家早上好從永續治理從企業永續治理的角度來說防堵並且揭露不法的行為是有助於維護產業的健康運作但是在私部門的具體應用上仍然存在許多的爭議比如說公部門與私部門的運作模式跟利益相關者不同"},{"start":2912.574,"end":2927.986,"text":"公部門的經營未必能直接套用於私部門不同企業有不同的治理模式跟文化統一標準可能不適用於各行業的需求所以對企業內部會治理會造成負擔剪大的"},{"start":2951.425,"end":2971.229,"text":"對企業的商譽會造成很大的影響影響投資人的信心所以我們認為行政立法雙軌並行的話彈性比較大能根據不同部門的特性來進行調整也可以避免不當干預企業內部的治理去影響企業的ESG的成長"},{"start":2978.206,"end":2997.93,"text":"由於各產業分別先訂定規定私部門揭弊的作為確實比較需要各產業的實際各別的來根據他們的營運模式跟風險管理的需求來訂定關於生命安全的產業一定要先有特別的規範例如說提升幼稚園安全和保護兒童的權益我們認為應該要先以內部優先"},{"start":3006.69,"end":3018.033,"text":"使企業有機會針對指控進行了解跟澄清﹐避免公司無端遭到司法的調查﹐平白耗費勞力時間費用而去影響公司的運作接避方式我們認為應該先以由內而外為主﹐強調內部治理和內部通報的機制"},{"start":3028.607,"end":3040.437,"text":"企業應該優先通過內部治理和內部監督機制來解決問題這樣子也有助於提升企業自我管理和風險控制的能力避免增加無謂的司法的負擔"},{"start":3043.628,"end":3062.147,"text":"關於外部通報的風險我們這邊想強調一下如果貿然向外部監督機關提出揭弊很有可能造成揭弊錯誤或者揭弊的失準導致企業內部機密的外洩損害企業的商業利益而且可能被競爭對手惡意的來利用"},{"start":3071.743,"end":3100.095,"text":"關於專責機關設立的困難我們想臺灣因為有150萬家中小企業八成以下都是五人以下的小公司需要大量的資源投入跟專業人員配置確保符合揭弊者法案的各項要求這只會增加企業的營運成本和行政的負擔實在是不利於中小企業的生存跟發展所以我們認為逐步推動適合企業本身情況的揭弊機制避免一刀切的立法政策"},{"start":3100.835,"end":3127.722,"text":"對企業ESG的成長帶來不利的影響那針對各國現有的機制我們有做幾個國家的這個案例來做說明美國他在要求金融機構設立專門部門處理揭弊者報告的時候大幅增加了企業的管理複雜性和營運成本包含設立專門的揭弊者保護官培訓員工執行相關的流程等等"},{"start":3129.434,"end":3133.098,"text":"英國雖然強調揭弊者的保密但實際操作中揭弊者身份洩漏的案例還是常常可以見到可見在實務操作中難以完全避免信息洩漏的風險如果今天是企業可能會面臨巨大的賠償責任"},{"start":3149.229,"end":3161.013,"text":"美國提供揭弊者經濟的獎勵：可是也引發了大量惡意舉報和濫用揭弊機制的情況：對企業內部的信任跟合作都造成了負面的影響韓國在立法過程當中：也經歷了很多次修改跟完善：這表示制度實施中的困難是有挑戰性的"},{"start":3173.772,"end":3180.459,"text":"日本雖然針對公共利益的揭弊有提供獎勵金但是效果也是有限所以在我國我們的揭弊者保護制度仍在發展當中如果貿然導入私部門可能帶來不確定性的風險"},{"start":3194.736,"end":3212.075,"text":"總結我們要避免法案實施之後會有濫用制度的風險例如有心人士可能會以揭弊為名報復或打擊競爭對手或在個人利益的驅動下濫用這個揭弊的機制無法避免企業無端被指控帶來的不公平影響"},{"start":3216.313,"end":3236.28,"text":"雖然揭弊者在舉發之後這個法案是可以讓他得到充分的保護但是如果包含職位不受影響薪資保留等等這一些保護措施其實是跟企業的經營自主權是有產生衝突的比如我們企業無法再放心把工作交給揭弊者卻還要保留揭弊者的福利"},{"start":3238.123,"end":3253.341,"text":"所以不同產業有不同的業務流程和風險這邊建議需要針對不同的產業有針對性的揭弊的機制避免濫用制度跟維護雙方的權益跟企業的正常營運之間找到合理的平衡"},{"start":3254.54,"end":3279.205,"text":"所以在還沒有完整的配到之前我們建立這個揭弊先採內機內控的機制避免造成不必要的損害所以說四部門先以行政指導推動未來再逐步擴大法制化範圍以上今天是我的發言謝謝大家好謝謝王理事長下一位我們請劉邦秀主任發言"},{"start":3286.756,"end":3313.901,"text":"主席、部長、署長還有各位在座的各機關首長、主管還有在座的先進老師、學者、專家我是中信技能管理宣言財經法律系的教授前主任我提供的資料在書面都有了這個議題我從109年就有研究了當時我有針對第9屆跟第10屆所提出來草案主條都有提出"},{"start":3314.921,"end":3315.864,"text":"臣如林志傑所述"},{"start":3322.782,"end":3349.597,"text":"我也在今年7月大概這個月就會發行的當代法治雜誌我大概就是聚焦在私部門因為公部門這個研究已經非常久從廉政署成立就已經有研究公部門的揭弊那公部門的揭弊跟私部門的揭弊應該是比較的很大的差異第一個從保護方面也不一樣還有適用的範圍也不一樣這個部分如果歷次的從第9屆跟第10屆提出的版本"},{"start":3351.175,"end":3351.435,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":3377.645,"end":3392.79,"text":"揭弊者如果是共犯關係,保護範圍到底要到多寡呢?是當時的揭弊者保護或是共犯性的揭弊保護是不是要不同?這部分在歷屆提出的草案都沒有探討"},{"start":3393.902,"end":3394.183,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3404.912,"end":3429.245,"text":"《揭弊者保護法》如林智傑教授講的其實在上市上櫃公司裡面都有行政指導相關的行政規則都可以示範我們把公司合併的《揭弊者保護法》立為同一法首先產生幾個爭議提出來給各位思考的在我的文章裡面從第6頁講"},{"start":3434.432,"end":3436.574,"text":"內部優先原則在私部門公司治理"},{"start":3456.359,"end":3484.545,"text":"上市上櫃公司上市應該有大多數的投資者這樣子是跟公益有關係剛才前一位發言者林智傑老師也講說這個特取行業比如說銀行或者是國家特取的一些營業這個確實就跟公益有關係這邊把它列入為私部門優先受理的方案如果要公私合併我認為還是不能全體適用在私部門還是要一定的界限"},{"start":3485.405,"end":3498.112,"text":"當然最好因為前一次本屆立法院改選之前法務部有提出說希望朝公司分離的立法我認為這是比較可行而且是"},{"start":3500.475,"end":3502.957,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會"},{"start":3519.522,"end":3535.825,"text":"每一屆的委員上台之後都會把上一屆委員因為任期不聯繫的關係所以他會再重新由某些委員提案連署之後再送進立法委員所以這部分關於四部門則因為四部門為什麼要公布"},{"start":3536.769,"end":3537.109,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":3558.029,"end":3559.75,"text":"公聽會：揭弊者保護法草案之基礎架構差異"},{"start":3585.437,"end":3603.854,"text":"政府機關,內部通報我們有列政風人員是最優先其實也不是每個政府機關都有政風人員所以還有檢查機關那你想想看如果是私部門的話沒有內部通報,一下子內部人員都會機關有弊端,公司有弊端就跑去外部檢舉"},{"start":3605.883,"end":3623.292,"text":"這個是不是符合公司治理原則這部分我們要思考雖然立法政策如果要把私部門列入揭弊的話我認為要一定的範圍上市上櫃公司所以有內部的比方說上市上櫃公司都有獨立董事或審計委員這是一個獨立機關這可以立法設為"},{"start":3628.934,"end":3629.995,"text":"司法及法制委員會公聽會"},{"start":3640.316,"end":3660.407,"text":"施部門內部人員檢體的保護機制跟公部門也要不一樣新竹縣家促集運防守代理生案本身就是共犯性的揭弊者我們可以認為共犯性的揭弊者之後他就免除所有的責任他可以申請回任公務員就可以最後找的是什麼"},{"start":3661.167,"end":3662.148,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":3678.223,"end":3703.978,"text":"在任用他為公務員這個機關都可以有考量不能要求說我揭弊之後我就一定要有完全不受任何限制的保護我覺得在共犯行揭弊者的保護裡面我覺得這部分要分開跟一般單純的公益揭弊者不一樣的地方不然就會成為剛才講的李老師講的可能會有黑函文化盛行或者先下手回強的問題"},{"start":3705.404,"end":3731.238,"text":"另外接避者的苛責問題任何人我們都要被苛責如果這是假的或者是動機不良者都應該要有苛責我們第1屆的草案從第9屆第10屆到第11屆裡面我們完全聚焦的都是接避者的保護那如果被接避者他是無辜的或者是有被動機不良善的這怎麼辦呢另外呢"},{"start":3732.81,"end":3756.873,"text":"在私部門的保護我認為要採取的跟公部門完全不一樣公部門可以申請回任因為他的老闆是國家國家的主要受僱者不是機關所長所以他可以申請回任在私部門公司的負責人可以允許說去外部揭弊重算是公益他可以讓他繼續顏值留用嗎不可以把他"},{"start":3757.875,"end":3757.895,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3786.381,"end":3806.614,"text":"這個議題,濫刑揭弊要有苛責另外有關司部門揭弊者的保護,我們要採取合一宗旨那如果不能合一宗旨怎麼辦?我們應該採取就是法院的勞動法院的機制,就是訴請法院的機制而且這個要什麼?盡快的,因為你不能讓一個揭弊者繼續留在公司然後也不能讓他成為公司的一個什麼?"},{"start":3807.625,"end":3832.652,"text":"負擔那揭弊之後當然是我們國家保護他人身安全這個是國家的義務至於說跟施部門裡面的一個關係我們要採取一個妥善的解決機制這個才是在施部門公益揭弊法立法裡面我要琢磨的如何保護他如何讓這個好具好善的條款實行而不是要求一個不可實行說揭弊者之後以後永遠都要留在這個公司因為以我在擔任這個"},{"start":3834.753,"end":3844.695,"text":"新竹科學研機的勞動調整重產源我沒有發現一個公司可以接受這是上市商的大公司只要揭弊之後很難以"},{"start":3845.828,"end":3846.728,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":3873.237,"end":3874.297,"text":"李主任,下一位請洪律師發言"},{"start":3905.629,"end":3929.645,"text":"主席 部長 署長 在座各位長官 還有在座各位的與會的專家學者大家好 我是萬國法律事務所 洪志榮 洪律師今天很榮幸有機會可以受邀來針對揭弊者保護這個議題進行一個發言那誠如剛剛諸位學者專家的那個發言可以發現其實揭弊者保護這個議案是各界所關乎的議案"},{"start":3930.546,"end":3932.388,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會"},{"start":3947.065,"end":3967.524,"text":"我們才會有訂定這樣子的一個草案的起點但是如果我們是站在一個公益的立場來探討這個草案的話那究竟如何將公共的利益與私部門的揭弊作為一個適當的連結我想剛剛的幾位的學者裡面都有經過特別提出來了"},{"start":3968.365,"end":3988.774,"text":"在現行的這樣子一個市部門的揭弊制度裡頭他所涉及的層面如此的廣泛甚至有可能涉及到所謂的黑韓文化這樣子的影響如果直接的就把市部門的揭弊直接跟目前的草案裡面畫上等號的話吳亦呼是不是會鼓勵"},{"start":3990.055,"end":4013.064,"text":"企業內部的競爭透過揭弊的方式以民意以揭弊的大旗來塑形內部競爭或是內部精英權爭奪的民意而導致公司事部門內部的公司治理的目的蕩然無存我想這個也是應該在揭弊者草案裡頭所要特別應該要注意的一點"},{"start":4014.104,"end":4014.124,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4034.893,"end":4062.711,"text":"揭弊者草案的推動因為企業內部的揭弊所涉及的層面實在是過於廣泛如同剛剛林志儀老師提到有可能涉及到營業秘密也有可能涉及到特許的行業內部的相關的管制規範或者是公開發行公司裡面的相關的一個內規我想這樣子的一個制度裡頭涉及的層面非常非常廣但是大家要注意一點我們剛剛提到的不論是特許事業或者是公開發行公司"},{"start":4065.052,"end":4092.66,"text":"這裡頭都是主管機關已經有訂定比較相關詳細的行政規則或者行政命令的情況之下才可以讓相關的揭弊者的一個制度予以推動但是反觀我國現行的產業結構裡面還是以中小企業的企業為主在目前中小企業的規格規模裡頭如果沒有達到一定的規模卻要求私部門必須要去遵守相關揭弊的制度"},{"start":4093.3,"end":4109.739,"text":"無異乎會讓施部門承受過重的相關的資源或成本的投入這樣或許會讓施部門的揭弊的美意而受到一個折扣所以我認為以目前的我國的現況來看"},{"start":4111.681,"end":4111.701,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4127.118,"end":4127.379,"text":"主席"},{"start":4143.354,"end":4167.005,"text":"以目前事部門的揭弊來看的話﹐他所涉及的企業的規模﹐是不是應該因應予以的定定﹐如同剛剛林老師所特別提到的﹐如果今天事部門的規模﹐可能只有5個人的話﹐難道還要求他一定要建構一個﹐內部揭弊制度嗎﹐只要任何一個人跳出來﹐主張說公司內部有弊案﹐"},{"start":4167.765,"end":4195.266,"text":"那個人的身份隨之就會曝光那如果有面臨到這個問題的話是不是應該在適用事部門的揭弊裡頭的公私規模應該也要仿效我國現行其他管制法規一樣做一個限制性的一個規定我想認為應該是有必要的那回歸到揭弊事部門裡頭的揭弊人的人別我們觀察了幾個外國的立法例不論是英國日本"},{"start":4196.067,"end":4225.299,"text":"正是美國關於公司部門內部揭弊人員的人別通常大部分只限於勞工為什麼只限於勞工因為勞工在公司裡頭他是受僱主的指揮監督去執行職務他本身並沒有一個足夠的武器可以跟僱主進行抗衡那如果不透過一個揭弊者一個保護的方式來保護這些勞工的話勞工是根本不敢跳出來進行一個揭弊的動作但是"},{"start":4226.553,"end":4256.017,"text":"如果我們觀察臺灣實務的發展其實公司裡頭的董事、監察人或是總經理也曾經有跳出來擔任揭弊者角度的個案發生但如果今天董事、監察人、總經理他揚棄了公司法賦予他的忠實義務去善盡他的職責監督公司反而是以一個揭弊者的角度跳出來揭露公司內部的弊案這樣子的方式是我國揭弊者保護法"},{"start":4256.257,"end":4256.277,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4284.838,"end":4284.858,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4300.114,"end":4323.817,"text":"最後一個部分我們也可能會呼應到剛剛幾位專家學者所特別提到的問題我國私部門裡頭其實是揚次衝刺的黑函的檢舉文化那我們常常在實務觀察裡面也可以發現這些黑函的檢舉的所援引的資料裡頭往往是來自於透過不法的方式去取得公司的相關的機密文件"},{"start":4325.078,"end":4350.289,"text":"如同剛剛專家學者特別提醒的如果你今天所擷取的相關的機密文件是屬於公司內部的營業秘密或是機密文件所保護的標的而你卻用不法的手段擷取了相關的機密資料而且把這個機密資料用來作為揭露公司弊案的一個資訊的話這樣子的行為是法嗎"},{"start":4351.994,"end":4378.902,"text":"以目前我國實務的發展如果你是以不法的方式取得這些機密資料你取得資料的本身就是一個違法的行為那如果你在用這個違法行為所取得資料作為一個揭秘的一個依據而最後受到相關的揭秘者保護法或者是後續的揭秘事部門揭秘者保護法的行政指引行政指導的保護而免除其不法行為的追究"},{"start":4379.902,"end":4404.724,"text":"這樣子的行為我認為其實是抵觸我國現行相關法令的一個制度所以我認為未來如果要鼓勵建構一個私部門的內部揭秘制度如果今天揭秘人他所取得的相關的一個揭秘的文件他是用不法的方式所取得的話這應該是要去立法明文排除適用於揭秘者保護法的適用範圍裡頭"},{"start":4405.845,"end":4407.506,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會．揭弊者保護法草案之基礎架構差異與利弊影響"},{"start":4431.817,"end":4431.897,"text":"黃國昌委員"},{"start":4457.237,"end":4484.24,"text":"非常感謝主席今天非常謝謝這麼多的專家學者針對《吹哨者保護法》提供我們非常多寶貴的建議在這邊作為司法法制委員會的議員我要向所有出席這一場公聽會的專家學者表達我個人非常誠摯的建議各位所發表的高見有的時候我們現在比較忙在各個委員會跑沒有辦法坐在這邊全程聽完但一定會成為我們接下來修法的時候"},{"start":4484.898,"end":4498.13,"text":"非常重要的參考依據我自己對於《摧要者保護法》的觀察是包括了很多學者或者是專家所提出來的公司部門到底要不要合併那如果"},{"start":4499.715,"end":4527.874,"text":"洩密行為本身構成不法行為的時候在什麼要件下在什麼程度範圍內應該要免除他的法律責任我相信這些問題啊其實在台灣一點都不新穎討論超過10年以上討論超過10年以上因為我2016年到2020年那個時候在立法院服務的時候我也推動了吹哨者保護法那時候其實已經完成了委員會的審查但我們現在已經是2024年了"},{"start":4530.076,"end":4553.992,"text":"2024年過去這十幾年相關的問題包括公司部門要合併還是要分流對於有一些企業內部不法的行為在什麼要件下我們應該可以保護在什麼樣的要件下應該要予以處罰如同我剛剛跟大家所報告的其實國內的文獻非常的多"},{"start":4554.893,"end":4575.569,"text":"我們2016到2020在委員會討論的時候那個時候法務部還有提版本出來是按照法務部的版本在審那是公司部門合併所有的疑問法務部那時候都回應但問題是什麼台灣為什麼吹哨者保護法推到今天我們還在原地踏步"},{"start":4576.707,"end":4604.276,"text":"是主政者的決心不足還是在阻擋這個法案的大金控背後的利益團體政治上面拉比的力量太強了這兩個因素我自己都功逢其勝全部都遭遇過因為有大金控啊是花好幾千萬的預算啊在買媒體啊買宣傳啊在拉比啊不要推動吹哨子的保護法為什麼"},{"start":4605.953,"end":4622.803,"text":"有人出來揭弊的時候有人出來揭弊的時候把這些弊案攤在陽光下的時候本來住豪宅坐豪車的大金控的老闆就有可能被羈押嘛就有可能被訴追犯罪嘛這個是我們私改會議總結報告2017年8月12號有結論了"},{"start":4632.267,"end":4639.554,"text":"到現在崔少哲保護法跟大家報告跳票2523天2523天2523天是什麼概念大家可以一起想一想台灣還有多少時間可以這樣蹉跎下去"},{"start":4649.437,"end":4660.481,"text":"我們還要讓勇於出來吹哨的人遭受到迫害遭受到追殺到什麼時候這個是立法院要非常嚴肅面對的問題真的要非常嚴肅面對的問題"},{"start":4665.282,"end":4682.537,"text":"不要為了保護少數的大金控的老闆讓一堆需要被保護的吹哨人沒有辦法得到正常的保護我們首次反貪腐國家公約的報告說要制定公司部門揭弊者保護機制這個報告是2018年這是我國將反貪腐公約國內法化了以後我們所負的國家義務我們所負的國家義務2018年講到現在"},{"start":4695.225,"end":4723.604,"text":"國際審查委員建議我們要立法處理揭弊者保護第二次國家報告的時候說要公私部門合併我們的政府的態度是變來變去一會要分開一會要合在一起然後結果呢國際審查委員指責立法院要立法院優先審議揭弊者保護法"},{"start":4724.824,"end":4753.375,"text":"但我們的反貪腐國家公約包括那個國家報告本身包括找國際審查委員來審查本身花了納稅人不少錢啊花了納稅人這麼多錢結果最後的結果是什麼最後的結果就是沒有結果花納稅人的錢大拜拜搞得很熱鬧發新聞稿國際審查委員來也告訴了我們國家該做的什麼事情"},{"start":4754.284,"end":4779.697,"text":"有做嗎有做嗎做在哪裡做到今天啊揭弊者保護法草案我們的行政院啊到底在哪裡到底在哪裡還要拖多久然後結果最近一次又轉彎了一開始是要公私分開後來要公私合併現在又要公私分開光這個基礎的問題"},{"start":4783.24,"end":4797.408,"text":"光這個基礎的問題現在成為什麼 拖延的藉口拖延的藉口每次問到永遠都在演繹我只問一個最簡單的問題跳票2500多天了還不夠久嗎台灣還有多少個2500多天被迫害的吹哨者還有多少個2500多天"},{"start":4811.332,"end":4834.523,"text":"這不是法律設計要怎麼設計的問題我報告過了我們的學者專家我們律師界的先進我們的法官都很認真過去這十幾年來累積的論述漢牛衝動相關可以研議的資料非常非常的多甚至2016到2020年那一屆我們的法務部還有自己提草案出來"},{"start":4835.743,"end":4858.209,"text":"結果到現在2024年我們的法務部我們的行政院草案在哪裡不見蹤影每一次問永遠就在拖永遠都在混社會上有很多不同的意見我們會持續的研議持續的探討持續的研議持續的探討我不希望下一次"},{"start":4859.673,"end":4888.345,"text":"立法院的司法法制委員會繼續在討論這個問題的時候是10年以後10年以後我們依然在研議依然在探討到底要是公私合併還是要公私分開吹哨者被迫害的人在角落裡面哭泣前我大財團大金控的老闆在那邊笑哈哈我簡單舉個最簡單的例子就好了我前一陣子揭發了我前一陣子揭發了"},{"start":4890.049,"end":4919.087,"text":"我們上市公司還是我們綠能國家隊拿納稅人30億結果幹什麼事情在我們的軍事要塞裡面放了會危害國家安全會危害國家安全不是我說的我們國安局說的會危害國家安全的中國資通訊產品我為什麼會知道這件事有人檢舉嘛有人吹哨嘛他不吹哨"},{"start":4920.39,"end":4942.168,"text":"他不吹哨社會怎麼知道這件事大家怎麼知道這件事情我們在設計這個機制的時候要在這一個上市公司裡面的人他們如何自處第一個跟老闆報告老闆你這樣做不對老闆說你明天回家吃自己這個是我們絕大多數人在職場的經驗第二個"},{"start":4951.994,"end":4964.463,"text":"第二個他要怎麼做跟主管機關具名前舉公司很快就知道這個人是誰知道了又怎麼樣他被追殺了又怎麼樣"},{"start":4966.018,"end":4989.626,"text":"我們這個社會我們這個社會到底要他如何自處總要給他一個行為準則嘛什麼時候你可以揭弊什麼時候你不可以揭弊什麼時候你揭弊會被保護什麼時候你揭弊會用泄密罪來追溯你當然不是全部都保護啊但我們也不可以放任"},{"start":4991.557,"end":5007.799,"text":"這些人永遠被追殺那這正是需要揭弊者保護法嘛把法律要件講清楚把法律效果講清楚這個是我覺得我們這一屆國會責無旁貸的任務一定要完成那我會利用這個機會非常感謝昭偉"},{"start":5009.401,"end":5033.14,"text":"中線很認真排了巡達又排了公聽會我希望下一次在排案的時候我們可以爭槍實彈進入逐條審查因為台灣社會等太久了我們違反聯合國反貪腐公約的義務違反太久了從司改國事會議的決議到現在跳票太久了需要立法院積極的採取行動謝謝大家"},{"start":5036.06,"end":5061.971,"text":"謝謝國常委員那因為今天是沒有行政院代表那我這邊也是要因為剛好國常委員在這邊我這邊也要跟行政院呼籲一下拜託你們院版什麼時候才要出來今天立法委員都已經長時間一直在關注這個案子然後大家也都提出相關的草案就行政院那邊的草案卻躺了那麼久那請問一下行政院到底什麼時候才要提出來"},{"start":5063.578,"end":5064.399,"text":"主席各位先進大家好"},{"start":5088.67,"end":5114.42,"text":"這是我第三次進來公聽會討論這個主題的那記得先前針對揭弊者保護法這個法案基本上立法我想絕大部分都是有共識的剩下的可能是一些細節的部分那其實揭弊者保護由於是這個名字其實是有修正過李教授他主導的那個研究計畫揭弊保護"},{"start":5115.783,"end":5140.202,"text":"這有點理所當然比單純吹哨你還不曉得吹什麼哨弊端把它揭發出來並且針對這樣的行為加以保護這不是最理所當然的事情嗎所以揭秘保護我們應該討論的不是是否該立法而應該是如何立法才對我想這才是一個重點那"},{"start":5141.182,"end":5142.083,"text":"李聖傑老師即將發表的文章已經有介紹了"},{"start":5159.175,"end":5180.732,"text":"那我說一個好處就是那因為看到一些其他的版本參考的各國的法案好像沒有直接參考到德國的那我想這應該是蠻具有參考價值那等一下我會就裡面的一些重點也許提供出來因為裡面其實蠻多的資訊那也許就來回應說這次討論提綱的一些問題我的一些看法"},{"start":5183.458,"end":5201.305,"text":"第一個就是一些最基本的觀念我這個觀念是從之前行政院的那一個草案的版本有一些基本的概念包含哪一個是揭弊者也就是所謂的內部人或是所謂的吹哨者"},{"start":5202.128,"end":5203.049,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5219.56,"end":5247.501,"text":"他們會包含跟不管是公部門或是部門裡面有聯繫的相關的人因為你一個廠商比如說我一個企業那我的採購部長我跟廠商然後要回扣那一個廠商他不是我公司的人但他也符合揭弊的要件這是一個要件的問題那可以揭弊的範圍以德國來說他們很清楚所有的犯罪行為以及其他的那"},{"start":5249.546,"end":5273.894,"text":"從我們來看犯罪行為應該是最嚴重的如果我們允許對其他非犯罪行為都可以舉發的話那怎麼還會有犯罪行為不能舉發的道理這是一個最基本的觀念那這邊還有一些細節我先不談我們純就立法的必要性那這一次似乎在爭執在公私部門尤其是私部門的部分那大家會覺得好像造成了"},{"start":5274.94,"end":5274.96,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5296.041,"end":5323.973,"text":"所以這個法案並不是要有這個法案他們才能揭弊從來不是如此而是把它立法化把檯面下的雜亂文章的做法我們把它統合積極的去立法讓至少已經比較有共識的我們立法來那在這個你符合法律的要件之下你的揭弊可以獲得相當程度的保護的效果這才是我們要做的所以"},{"start":5324.773,"end":5337.402,"text":"不會因為這個法案而讓包含司部門他因此陷於混亂剛好是相反的更何況司部門是有立法的誘因的透過"},{"start":5338.809,"end":5364.27,"text":"揭弊者保護法他尤其是內部的一個通報的管道你原則上要先向內部去通報也因此讓企業有辦法在第一時間他就可以及早的獲知資訊可以及早的去解除危機管理這事實上對司部門都是有很大的誘因的更何況公司法第二條就直接規定"},{"start":5365.051,"end":5392.694,"text":"公司雖然是以盈利為目的但是公司也一樣同樣要遵守法令要增進公共利益所以這個部分以私部門來說完全沒有漢格之處所以以德國法他們的立法的模式他們是以專法的模式而專法模式裡面公司部門從全部都已經有規定了全部都已經有規定所以這個沒有問題那至於"},{"start":5394.375,"end":5408.965,"text":"施部門若一併進來的話那要不要有規格比如說提綱裡面有提到是不是要上市上櫃我想這個有討論的空間以德國來說他們大概有分他們是用人數來分你的職員超過250人以上那你"},{"start":5409.625,"end":5433.484,"text":"第一個你主要私部門其實要建置一個通報的管道你要建置一個通報的管道你若沒建置以及違反相關的規定你有一些行政法的制裁的效果主要是在這個地方所以250人以上的你一定要在期限內就要建置那至於50人到250人這邊他期限有寬限"},{"start":5435.385,"end":5457.335,"text":"至於還沒到50人的我們常常見的中小企業他其實沒有這個一定的建制的義務他們已經做調和所以德國的是一個參考他們不一定都對而且他們執行的成效也要觀察但至少是一個先進國值得我們去參考的這是一個關於立法最基本的那至於"},{"start":5458.55,"end":5473.34,"text":"具體的保護的部分第一個當然就是身份保密這個揭弊者你要對他有足夠的身份保密我可能要講快一點只剩3分那最重要的法律效果有要件事實上"},{"start":5474.352,"end":5491.164,"text":"德國的這個專法有一個很重要的要件它其實是有設有要件的這個任何法律規範一定有要件跟法律效果所以他們在要件的時候他們有做立法權衡不要每一個都變成個案的權衡所以嚴重的國防機密的引言秘密的"},{"start":5492.185,"end":5511.641,"text":"這個不在揭弊的範圍這邊立法做了利益權衡了省卻一線的執法人員的困擾那它的法律效果當你符合要件的情況之下你才會受到揭弊者保護法的相關的保護包含責任的免除包含禁止有報復包含"},{"start":5515.383,"end":5539.332,"text":"讓揭弊者他享有一個請求權一個球場請求權而這個請求權為了讓他能夠實現這裡做了一個舉證責任的轉換讓他有效的去球場那當然我們不會希望所謂的黑函錯誤的的一個申報揭弊出現所以假設你是不死的話但是他這裡做一個調和除非你是故意"},{"start":5539.872,"end":5539.892,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5557.614,"end":5579.575,"text":"外部跟公開這三個是不同的要件內部就在企業或是公機關裡面的一個內部的機構那原則上內部通報優先那外部通報呢跟我們的先前的行政版本不太一樣外部通報比如說比如說他們有在司法局或者是在他們像我們的金管會裡面"},{"start":5580.956,"end":5595.656,"text":"他們會設一些外部的通報他不是偵查機構偵查機構本來就可以受理但他是一個外部的通報單位那原則上你是內部優先但是假設揭弊者他覺得他"},{"start":5596.877,"end":5619.429,"text":"我內部通報是沒有效果的你不會給我回應的或者是我擔心會報復的話我可以向外部通報那至於公開呢就是任何人包含媒體那這個他們立法也一樣有明文規定那這個情況當然是很例外的情況這例外的情況比如說你要避免緊急重大的危難或者是"},{"start":5620.697,"end":5646.73,"text":"你完全無法預期 而且當然又根據無法預期他們會就這個部分會做回應那這個是通報的內外 它是有次序的那這也是回應到司部門透過這一個內部通報它事實上可以即時掌握資訊對於司部門他們可以至少是危險控管 其實是有幫助的"},{"start":5648.884,"end":5669.136,"text":"這個有相關的一些的一些程序所以回應到簡單來說今天因為臨時接受通知沒有準備簡報跟大家比較抱歉也許之後會又可以提出就私部門來說其實我們對照私部門的ESG他們其實做得非常的好那觀念上"},{"start":5670.245,"end":5693.559,"text":"也許司部門公司裡面的特定個別的行為人他們違法那不代表公司也要跟著跟他一起同流合污這是兩回事公司是一個獨立的他們是要遵守法令的那第二個事實上他對於甚至偵查機關是有一定程度的檢壓效果這個跟刑事法尊有關我們現在就是什麼問題全部丟給"},{"start":5695.62,"end":5724.378,"text":"在大概30秒全部丟回刑事偵查機關有問題就舉發犯罪就全部重來監管就從頭查起連行政的一些缺失不足都全部自己來但事實上透過司部門或一些前置的程序你可以把一些實況釐清甚至有些問題他們可以去導正讓各個國家各個機關他們把珍貴的資源花在最珍貴的事情的處理上以上 謝謝"},{"start":5726.983,"end":5727.706,"text":"陳永正主任發言"},{"start":5739.274,"end":5758.482,"text":"主席 各位委員 還有各位先進 大家好首先感謝各位委員對公私部門揭弊者保護的重視我是陳永正 來自於臺灣警察專科學校行政警察學系現在目前是教授兼主任本身實際從事過查緝貪賭以及進入監所訪談這些貪賭的行為歷程依照我們研究的這一個"},{"start":5772.787,"end":5794.394,"text":"這個發現 貪賭個案在行為的時候 他們比較擔心的是被捕的風險而不是被捕的結果所以說防治策略上著重在於增加犯罪的風險 也就是強化了監控機制在職場的工作環境當中 業者跟公務員之間常常會有相互掩護的現象 並且以行政手段來阻斷"},{"start":5795.965,"end":5812.988,"text":"內政﹑突銷﹑犯罪痕跡的這種情形所以在防弊作為上除了現有的政風、廉政調查的人員以外更應該要鼓勵機關內部員工的主動接避防止公部門在職權上的專善取斷"},{"start":5813.869,"end":5832.105,"text":"另外一方面強化外部的監控機制鼓勵全民參與並且保護揭弊者進而施部門也必須要對於揭弊制定規範以二組這種行受會的這種落實那在揭弊者保護專法的制定是我們國際間"},{"start":5834.582,"end":5834.602,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5854.298,"end":5878.44,"text":"一個良好的社會風氣必須要全民及公私部門一同的努力但在傳統的觀念上面公私部門講求對部門的忠誠度所以揭弊者通常被視為一種背叛者因此他們不僅僅要承擔身份被揭露之後遭受周遭不當罵名的傷害跟風險因此無論公部門的貪賭、私部門的違法案件"},{"start":5879.241,"end":5903.291,"text":"非內部人接入相關事證外界是恐難以查之因此對於公司部門的揭弊必須要鼓勵跟保護不要讓良善的揭弊者錯信立法的效用而成為犧牲者但更需要防範錯誤的揭弊這種利益良善結果為惡形成不當的報復跟排除異己的行為被揭弊者"},{"start":5903.911,"end":5928.081,"text":"遭受到的誤會、信譽、商譽的損失其等的清白該如何恢復這是一個很重要的議題以下我就針對提綱提出個人的淺見第一個部分依照《聯合國反貪腐公約》第二次的國家報告國家國際的審查提出施部門防備沒有納入對於施部門揭弊者的權利沒有辦法保護的意見個人認為"},{"start":5931.622,"end":5945.472,"text":"司部門分屬不同的機關專業資能難以齊備所以以採公私分流行政立法雙軌並行來符合保護司部門揭弊機制理由如下"},{"start":5948.347,"end":5966.562,"text":"國際審查反貪腐專家的結論性意見提及到施部門必須將企業主以及企業納入反貪行列國際委員主要認為是施部門沒有提供保護的機制以我們台灣特有的社會文化背景依照目前中小企業"},{"start":5967.901,"end":5973.767,"text":"加速超過163萬家 佔了全體企業98.9%明顯可見我們台灣私部門以中小企業及家族企業為主這些必須要將它納入訪攤的行列 但是私部門所涉及的專業事務比較複雜"},{"start":5987.702,"end":6002.292,"text":"那單純以此概括式的立法：不僅僅容易掛一落萬那也可能衍生範圍定義不明確以及避免產生勞資雙方信任度的疑義所以考量師部門分屬不同主管機關各領域的複雜度專業資能難能這個其背"},{"start":6006.255,"end":6028.301,"text":"又涉及到他們這些的商業機密及競爭等等這些正義因素在私部門就不同規模的企業應該是有不同揭弊機制的規定那這種公私分流的立法模式也符合國際這些審查的專家的意見提供了私部門揭弊的保護措施那第二個問題"},{"start":6030.549,"end":6039.138,"text":"司部門由各產業分別定定揭弊的作為更符合時需先由公部門推動"},{"start":6040.734,"end":6066.134,"text":"提升反貪的認知以及宣導活動 辦理各規模私部門當中比如像外商企業誠信的論壇定期跟各商會召開反貪污作為的會議以及鼓勵企業採用ISO37001的反賄賂管理系統那這個系統裡面透過外部的第三方的查核那證明企業組織反貪污"},{"start":6068.897,"end":6080.191,"text":"反賄選的政策以及流程的有效性所以有表明遵循反賄賂法相關的規範以及與利害關係人合作管控企業組織供應鏈當中的風險"},{"start":6084.115,"end":6101.67,"text":"確保公益商、分包商、代理商致力於反賄賂的最佳做法施部門跟公部門推動更多的合作鼓勵公司跟企業瞭解提升誠信跟反貪意識及做法的價值結合公部門行政指導確保施部門營運以及揭弊者的權益再逐步擴大法制化"},{"start":6110.878,"end":6136.292,"text":"這個部分 基於尊重施部門的企業治理避免營運成本以及人事管理以及降低了勞資雙方信任度的影響為了保留公司營運以及人事運用的這種彈性施部門採行行政指導先行的策略先以循序漸進的方式保護揭弊者但是揭弊者最顧忌的權益都是工作權還有社會的尊嚴"},{"start":6138.474,"end":6139.861,"text":"那這種維繫社會關係的尊嚴被侵犯了"},{"start":6143.138,"end":6168.321,"text":"國家法律有絕對予以保護的必要所以基於保護良善的揭弊者現行法已經有各種單行的法規像是政教法、勞動基準法等等這些都設有保護的措施所以私部門並不是毫無保護揭弊者的這種機制未來在這個基礎之下逐步的擴及到私部門法制化"},{"start":6170.696,"end":6185.431,"text":"無論公私合併、分流或雙軌並行下就揭弊採取的方式都必須要審慎避免揭弊者因私人或其他目的而有惡意不實的揭弊通報當揭弊及守護資料為虛偽不實"},{"start":6191.396,"end":6210.988,"text":"這個仍然應該要依法來就辦所以剛剛有提到的不管是公範、公範結構的洩密各方面的資料虛偽的部分都應該是有一些的機制來約束所以接避方式採取先內而外雙軌進行避免分工重複不宜再設專責的機構所以從雙軌並行的通報"},{"start":6215.231,"end":6228.47,"text":"公視部門組織重視的是誠信跟道德所以內部員工的揭弊行為對於公視部門組織管理都是一件很難的事情所以揭弊行為在組織文化上面"},{"start":6230.387,"end":6255.09,"text":"都被認為是對性外遇的行為但是呢 良善的揭弊者也應該被視為員工對部門忠誠度的呈現在私部門應該就不同規範的企業有不同的揭弊機制在外國立法例裡面我看從英國 美國 日本等等這些立法例裡面揭弊者的以內部通報先行委員者的這個例子也蠻多的"},{"start":6256.331,"end":6277.93,"text":"可以向事業經營者設置或者指定的通報單位為通報針對比較具規模的企業或公司還有相關的法規以及主管機關都要求建立內部的控制跟集合的制度目前臺灣也是如此所以負責監督公司各項業務的執行"},{"start":6280.851,"end":6297.735,"text":"這對於企業的商域保障比較完善：並促進企業自動更正缺失：以維護它後面的運作就現有的組織編制：避免分工重復：不宜再設專責機關採行現有的組織"},{"start":6301.916,"end":6327.156,"text":"主管機關的執掌、受理、揭弊案件都有完善的像政風、廉政、督查、調查系統對於檢舉陳情已經有揭弊的保護措施考量執掌、任務、機關源流的簡化等等這些因素顯無必要跟實益性所以我建議不適宜另行再涉專者的機關以上的簡介請各位知道 謝謝"},{"start":6331.711,"end":6346.652,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請邱碧英副秘書長那待會邱碧英副秘書長報告完畢後因為已經將近一個半小時從開會到現在那我們就先到時候休息五分鐘謝謝各位"},{"start":6351.896,"end":6360.445,"text":"委員部長還有各位先進大家早安我是中華民國全國工業總會副秘書長邱秉英非常謝謝委員今天召開這樣子的一個有關揭秘者保護法草案的一個公聽會讓這個公總有機會來跟大家報告一下產業界的看法跟立場"},{"start":6372.938,"end":6375.02,"text":"昨年2023年的綜合企業白皮書提到,台灣的綜合企業有163萬家這麼多的龐大企業家屬"},{"start":6392.098,"end":6410.413,"text":"全體企業98.9%以上所以當這樣的一個立法一刀切下來的時候其實對中小企業的影響不言可喻今天我想因為大家我想我們就把這個焦點就直接放在就是說到底這樣子的一個立法架構怎麼切會比較好"},{"start":6411.514,"end":6411.895,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6427.535,"end":6428.236,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6443.351,"end":6443.371,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6462.446,"end":6462.466,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6487.165,"end":6487.185,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6518.046,"end":6523.01,"text":"包括金控包括銀行包括證券包括保險這些相關的金融業它在內部的內控跟這個集合制度上面要求它更高強度的管理"},{"start":6543.707,"end":6569.96,"text":"他要把這個檢舉制度要納入而且他也會加強金融檢查那另外包括政交所或中央存保公司他這些也會把上市櫃公司的這些檢舉制度納為年度抽查的審閱項目我想這相關的單行法規其實已經有相關的規定那其實最重要的是其實法規是在的問題出在哪裡問題出在執行面"},{"start":6572.401,"end":6597.089,"text":"到底有沒有真正的落實管理跟執行我覺得這是一個問題那另外一個是我想我們當然非常贊成現在剛剛幾位先進提到的還有我們看到這個法務部現在的書面說明裡面提到的就是公部門先行司部門分流並以行政這個措施來做輔導那"},{"start":6599.149,"end":6624.935,"text":"公總的立場是這樣公司分流並不是說私部門不要處理不要保護我們只是更加的鼓勵公部門的吹哨者先行也呼應剛剛黃委員的說法既然這樣子的一個立法已經蒸老多時而且但是在公部門的吹哨者保護法就是揭弊者保護的這個部分其實大家都沒有意義"},{"start":6625.655,"end":6625.675,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6649.83,"end":6667.278,"text":"上市貴公司要跟中小企業分流這個參照德國的這個立法制我覺得這也是一個非常好的方向那這樣子的一個區別其實是有幫助的那其實老實說對私部門來講大家認為揭秘者是弱勢"},{"start":6668.319,"end":6668.539,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":6687.074,"end":6710.076,"text":"尤其是有時候如果是這種這個揭秘的這個制度被惡意引用的時候其實同業的惡性競爭其實以前不乏少見那這樣子在即便後來證明了這件事情是烏龍或是說被證明是清白的但是所有的商譽都是沒有辦法回復的而且也沒有人會關注這件事情"},{"start":6711.918,"end":6739.713,"text":"所以我覺得這是一個非常重要的這個希望大家來參考的那另外要提的是當一個法案他會被推遲12年這麼久他絕對不是行政機關的怠惰我想其實是行政機關他在聽到了非常多的聲音之後他知道這件事情其實不是一刀切就可以解決的我們也看到其實在這個就是來來回回的這個立場裡面"},{"start":6740.894,"end":6760.59,"text":"一定是有它的原因所在我們可以看它提出每一個版本裡面其實都考慮到但是後來會發現原來我還有沒有考慮到的當這樣子的一個事實現象反映出來是讓我們說所有事情其實是不用冒進因為沒有意義的那另外一個我要提的是"},{"start":6761.601,"end":6761.621,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6781.055,"end":6805.89,"text":"來揭露,那所有的委員們也非常勇於任事的去承擔這樣一個責任所以我覺得,我不說立法不重要,立法是重要的只是大家要了解,其實在這樣子的一個立法情況之下其實台灣的這個現實情況之下其實我們還是讓這個JP責保護法的行政部門先行也贏得大家社會的信賴,我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":6806.59,"end":6806.61,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6835.553,"end":6863.835,"text":"以人情來說,他其實很難待在繼續的原單位工作也許在四部門的行政指導上面我們可以比較多的這種就是去訪查一些這個四部門企業面對這樣的話,怎麼樣處理會是更好的給予比較好的行政指導我覺得這才是一個比較務實的做法那當然我想這個以國家資源有限情況之下是不是要設一個專責機構當然我想這個不管是先進也好或是行政部門都有很多的這個"},{"start":6864.976,"end":6865.177,"text":"休息5分鐘"},{"start":6930.363,"end":6931.105,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6958.621,"end":6959.484,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6970.596,"end":6971.557,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7010.264,"end":7011.124,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7026.986,"end":7027.966,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7052.555,"end":7053.576,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7073.785,"end":7075.066,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7100.376,"end":7101.176,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7139.737,"end":7151.839,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":7170.406,"end":7171.107,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7185.586,"end":7186.266,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7217.858,"end":7218.519,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7232.399,"end":7233,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7254.868,"end":7259.854,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7274.109,"end":7274.75,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":7302.234,"end":7302.655,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7325.572,"end":7325.752,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7345.172,"end":7345.713,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7365.731,"end":7367.372,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":7380.566,"end":7380.586,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7409.104,"end":7409.704,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7443.964,"end":7444.384,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7505.72,"end":7506.06,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7536.638,"end":7537.2,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7543.864,"end":7544.405,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7567.306,"end":7567.486,"text":"副委員長"},{"start":7611.278,"end":7614.539,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7637.23,"end":7641.635,"text":"好 現在我們開始開會那下一位我們請李聖傑副教授發言"},{"start":7648.414,"end":7674.427,"text":"主席趙薇好 與會的各位先進 部長署長大家早安今天我想我們立法院針對揭弊者保護法的立法政策具體呈現了三個提綱基本上第一個提綱跟第二個提綱我們一起講第三個提綱關於如果是私部門先行的話"},{"start":7677.308,"end":7705.316,"text":"事務部門的通報機構那應該如何設計呢那在這邊我會跟各位從德國的揭弊者保護法的架構去做報告那首先呢針對第一個提綱跟第一個提綱我們是不是在揭弊者保護法呢應該做這個公司部門的合併或者是區隔立法"},{"start":7706.416,"end":7724.388,"text":"這很簡單說,如同之前早上一場的先進門說明大家了解,臺灣針對揭弊者保護法的立法原理基本上超過10年回顧來說"},{"start":7727.301,"end":7751.978,"text":"這一個2012年我受到聯政署的委託做公部門揭弊者保護法的研究然後呈現出來當時的台灣對社會還沒有對揭弊者這個概念有太多的理解所以吹哨者保護法它是一個外來名詞"},{"start":7756.367,"end":7758.114,"text":"當時聯證署給我的研究"},{"start":7759.639,"end":7784.851,"text":"委託的法案名稱叫做《機關組織內部不法資訊揭露者保護法》我從來沒有接過那麼長的研究案的名稱所以在這個研究的製作過程後端研理過程後端我們研究團隊決定用揭弊者這三個字"},{"start":7787.373,"end":7799.907,"text":"從2012年我的研究期末報告提出之後我們也看到相關的立法也定性在揭弊者的定義上"},{"start":7802.068,"end":7816.273,"text":"當時確實是以公部門先行公部門跟私部門是不是要合一或者是要區隔在2012年2013年的8月我們把期末報告提出來之後我們也看到廉政署"},{"start":7816.833,"end":7817.293,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7846.241,"end":7873.666,"text":"那這個剛剛我們國常委員基本上也認識到這一點知道在相關的法案的研擬過程基本上我們行政部門確實不管針對公部門的29條的法案或者是公私合一的這一種揭弊者保護法的架構跟草案的提出都已經確實已經有了很完整的條文"},{"start":7874.446,"end":7898.103,"text":"那我自己認為這是一個很單純的立法技術形式立法政策選擇的問題那基本上呢公布門先行當然怎麼樣看起來簡單多了因為一個資訊透明的政府機關是符合全民期待"},{"start":7899.076,"end":7915.389,"text":"那如果要把私部門也拉進來的話呢我們也看到這邊涉及到幾個比較具體的問題那當然這邊我們在產業發展的跟這個資訊透明的社會期待呢"},{"start":7915.589,"end":7916.009,"text":"如何做會比較好?"},{"start":7938.365,"end":7958.835,"text":"基本上我們在一開始做這個所謂的這個機關組織內部不法資訊揭露研究的時候很多人問我你在幹什麼你最近在研究什麼東西我就說明了一遍之後這些人通常怎麼樣就稍微理解就是爪耙子條款"},{"start":7962.249,"end":7981.682,"text":"10年前大家對吹哨者我們台灣社會是有這樣的爪爬者告密者的這樣的認識可是10年後藉由不斷的吹哨者保護立法的必要性還有我們聯合國反貪腐公約對台灣的立法的要求"},{"start":7982.602,"end":8002.927,"text":"基本上我們社會對揭弊者其實是已經有所謂的正義實現的角色的認識所以如果是這樣的話在揭弊者的架構裡面今天在我提供的書面資料上有提供出來基本上要做到三點"},{"start":8003.687,"end":8031.633,"text":"第一個身份保密第二個揭弊者的工作保障第三個揭弊者相關的人身安全保護那當時我在做這一個揭弊者保護法的原理的時候基本上還加了一個slogan叫三保三保一重塑重塑什麼東西重塑揭弊者的社會角色不要再用告密者跟這一個爪耙子的社會角色去看待他"},{"start":8032.133,"end":8059.713,"text":"那經過10年我想重做應該是我們已經做到了然後可是這個三保那會呈現出我們的公部門也好 私部門也好他的一種相關的保護架構的設計那基本上在這邊就要提到揭弊者要揭什麼弊那我想時間的關係我在這邊請我們的這一個我提供出來的"},{"start":8061.074,"end":8088.894,"text":"書面資料的第三頁有把德國在設計這一個吹哨者保護法在它的第二條它呈現了10款的規定然後其中還有一款如列出15個更細項的規定表現出相關可以揭弊的範疇它的揭弊德國揭弊不區隔這一個公部門或者是私部門"},{"start":8089.774,"end":8110.273,"text":"是透過了一個所謂的受僱者的這一種立法定義把公部門的成員公部門的同仁或者是私部門的企業的員工都定性為受僱者所以受僱者在什麼時候可以去做什麼樣揭弊"},{"start":8111.474,"end":8122.654,"text":"在他的德國揭弊者保護法的第二條有很明確的表達出來第一在這個他的第一款裡面他表現在這個"},{"start":8125.475,"end":8140.977,"text":"第二條的第一款就是剛剛我們陳仲元陳大律師也提到所有的刑法的刑事不法刑法所制裁的行為就是具備有這個刑事不法都可以成為揭弊對象"},{"start":8141.678,"end":8159.536,"text":"第二個就是這一個相關特定的行政不法行為德國在立吹哨者保護法的時候他起步比台灣晚我們如果以我開始做揭弊者的委託研究來看的話我們是2012年德國起步很晚"},{"start":8160.137,"end":8189.663,"text":"然後可是呢他在2023年5月已經呢通過立法而且在2023年的7月呢也已經開始實行那德國在定這一個吹哨者保護法的時候跟台灣有很類似的立法背景就基本上呢他企業也是一直怎麼樣希望呢這一個吹哨者保護法不要定的太前置使得企業的發展受到一些牽制然後可是"},{"start":8190.323,"end":8216.79,"text":"這一個所以德國曾經有兩版吹哨者保護法然後第一版基本上沒有通過在國會德國的國會就沒有通過因為他怎麼樣他在這一個第二條的第二款把所有行政不法的行為加進來然後他後來在新版裡面他做了約束就是說涉及到人民的身體"},{"start":8218.651,"end":8241.89,"text":"身命身體自由還有重大的財產利益的行政不法才把它加進來這邊我想相關的這一種立法研擬單位也可以參考其次在這一個第三款以後我們看到就是基本上德國因為它也是歐盟的會員國所以歐盟有些特定的法律直接在德國生效"},{"start":8243.912,"end":8256.591,"text":"規範了對社會安全的照護所以也可以成為揭弊對象其實在這邊有不當競爭然後我們有看到這一個相關的"},{"start":8259.443,"end":8273.87,"text":"相關的這一種個人資料保護最後最後就是在第二條的第10款那我們看到如果公務員違反憲法的忠誠義務的時候"},{"start":8274.65,"end":8277.171,"text":"揭弊者保護法當時我們一再強調一定不是要具名揭弊就是想避免黑函"},{"start":8298.456,"end":8317.058,"text":"居民揭弊有兩個好處第一個 居民我們才知道要保護誰我們的身份保密系統就要做得好所以如果是居民揭弊我想不會有太多我們企業所考量的黑函問題其次 第二點就是"},{"start":8317.498,"end":8318.379,"text":"時間的關係我簡單的報告"},{"start":8344.321,"end":8347.721,"text":"謝謝李副教授 下一位我們請張綺路教授發言"},{"start":8355.866,"end":8376.885,"text":"非常謝謝昭偉也感謝各位與會的先進學者事實上這一個案子事實上是歷經了三屆國會坦白說包括我自己在上一屆國會的時候我自己都有版本坦白說非常的感慨為什麼從第九屆第十屆到今天到第十一屆國會從我們2017年我們的這個司改國事會議"},{"start":8382.33,"end":8409.091,"text":"蔡總統也講得很清楚這個揭弊者保護法是他的這個結論是要推動立法的就在我們第10屆國會有12個版本完全都連審都沒有審現在終於看到一線曙光我很坦白說歷經了3屆國會那延宕了7年我必須直說過去我看這件事我只能說"},{"start":8410.424,"end":8436.551,"text":"沒有那麼多做不到只是我們真的就是技術上不是做不到而是什麼而是我們到底想不想做這件事我直白說啦其實今天也非常謝謝昭緯這個能夠舉辦這樣一個公聽會因為這裡面所談的這些議題我必須直說就像第一個部分到底要不要公私合在一起我還是直說啦"},{"start":8437.642,"end":8464.718,"text":"在聯合國反貪腐公約的第二次國家報告中我們自己交出去的報告就寫得那麼明白我們就是要定定 嚴定一個所謂這個公司這個合併版的這樣子的一個揭弊者保護法這不是就已經講得很清楚了嗎而且我直說好了我們今天所看到的所有的這些弊案包括交通 食安 環境 金融等等或者政府內部的能夠跟私部門沒有關係嗎"},{"start":8466.884,"end":8483.554,"text":"我也很直說今天黃國昌委員一直上去在追問我現在很欣慰說我們現在立法院有調查權我真的要問一下能不能請黃委員到時候調一下到底哪一個大金控又花了多少錢來做這些事情"},{"start":8484.909,"end":8508.008,"text":"其實沒關係 你可以拉逼 但是讓全民知道嘛 知道一下為什麼嘛 理由說得清楚一點嘛那今天當然政府部門也是配合著在想要轉彎本來已經是要公私合併了 結果2023年又改成說公私分流 行政立法雙軌並行等等這些那現在又說好 乾脆就是上市櫃公司先行 就這樣子就好"},{"start":8508.871,"end":8536.307,"text":"可是我就直說我們想想看最近從疫情以來的很多可能的弊端我就直白講他真的必須一定要生那種大公司嗎他可能50萬的一個小吃店也可以接一個案子啊也接了很多錢啊這裡面到底有沒有問題我們不知道啊那當然他就不是上市櫃公司囉那所以這個到底我們要怎麼去這個地方難道沒有漏洞嗎其實我很坦白說啦"},{"start":8537.515,"end":8556.312,"text":"立法的這個意旨上我自己擔任了這個4年的立委過去在地10屆的時候其實我很明確的說實話這個立法的問題真的常常不是在於什麼技術啦 細節有時候很多講細節的人只不過是不想要推動這個立法而已"},{"start":8557.312,"end":8582.757,"text":"我當然也承認一個好的揭弊者保護法需要有一些細節要繼續考慮我也誠實告訴各位譬如說大家會談說揭弊動機規範不足被揭弊者自己的權益呢當然要保障啊 這個我也同意保障啊那直接在立法上就把它保障好啊如果它不符合公義揭弊它必須受法律追溯啊OK啊 就立法嘛就把它寫清楚嘛"},{"start":8584.329,"end":8596.222,"text":"他如果說做這些事情他是取得不正的利益那OK啊 追溯他啊那這件事情跟要不要立這個揭弊者保護法會衝突嗎 一點都不會衝突"},{"start":8597.543,"end":8615.763,"text":"也有人說這樣對中小企業衝擊是不是很大比如說因為我們常在揭弊者這個過程中有禁止不利人士的這個措施有一些中小企業只有10個人8個人那你現在就把他先這樣子弄下去之後他是不是沒有彈性沒有關係啊你把他分層處理啊"},{"start":8617.281,"end":8634.681,"text":"就是技術上是可以做得到的阿如果這種小型的他是不是比較特立阿你今天這個立法只是先一個大原則你也有細則阿你也有這個立法的說明阿你甚至有行政指導你都可以做阿不是做不到甚至也有人說"},{"start":8637.261,"end":8659.173,"text":"這個保留原職的這個問題是不是要好聚好散這個我同意啊民眾黨的黨版我們召委的版本民進黨林月琴委員的版本這些好聚好散可以啊可以做啊我覺得技術上是可以完成的啊這沒有像想像中這麼難嘛那另外所謂到底揭弊者萬一他是證供犯呢也可以啊"},{"start":8661.954,"end":8661.974,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8687.341,"end":8714.229,"text":"從過去這樣三屆國會一直走到今天好不容易真的只有這一屆有曙光原因很簡單因為就是國會結構改變我自己作為一個算是泛政治的學者其實我也直白說公共政策能不能發聲常常就在於那個結構對不對啦過去為什麼蔡總統蔡前總統他自己的政見為什麼就沒有辦法八年來就不能落實"},{"start":8715.888,"end":8738.445,"text":"因為就不要落實嘛 不是不能落實當時我們在立法院我們都能感受得到啊 民進黨想要過的法案一定鐵定能過嘛他不要過的就永遠不能過嘛 那當時就是 這不是技術也不是什麼研不研究研究早就大家都知道 國外的立法例那麼多非常明確 台灣沒有比較不行啦"},{"start":8741.247,"end":8760.702,"text":"國外參考了一下就可以做了所以這個現在是我們真正改革的一個真正的結構點我必須直說所以我才必須還是要強調這件事非常謝謝這次召委能夠往前這樣子來推動我們不希望看到又是像過去延宕這樣子2500天"},{"start":8763.007,"end":8782.469,"text":"七年來 跨三個 三屆會期 這種結果那當然我也要呼籲我們執政黨 我講白一點今天賴總統也講得很明白了 樹灘打炸治安是他最重要的我們真的非常欣慰看到這件事情 樹灘 真的就是 這個不是樹灘嗎"},{"start":8784.192,"end":8812.688,"text":"公司這些的問題我們敢去聯合國的這個反貪腐公約我們敢去承諾這不就是我們要做的事嗎所以這樣子的事情我也必須正告執政黨真的民眾已經給民進黨兩屆的機會了現在是第三屆了真的非常不容易如果再做不出一點效果來其實我覺得民眾真的會大反彈的"},{"start":8813.84,"end":8825.461,"text":"所以我覺得這件事情既然在野黨藍白兩黨通通都這樣的支持執政黨有什麼理由說這件事還做不到呢"},{"start":8827.025,"end":8853.911,"text":"而且這裡面的就是我剛才一直特別強調的這些大轉彎目的何在呢?目的何在呢?公司之間大轉彎然後一直要縮線不斷的縮線把這個範疇越小越好最好的想法就是根本不要有嘛其實何必這麼害怕呢?理由在哪裡呢?向全民報告一下好不好?"},{"start":8855.353,"end":8882.212,"text":"那到底又是哪些財團進來的拉比呢?我們本來不就是應該要公開的嗎?那到底是誰呢?理由何在呢?我真的也當然也期待剛剛彭國昌委員在這邊我也會請他 既然我們有了調查權我們這一件事就先來調查一下我們就先來詢問一下法務部到底有沒有哪一個財團先來進來說這件事情我們想清楚說明白"},{"start":8882.992,"end":8900.083,"text":"所以總的來講我覺得揭弊者保護法並不是像大家想像的一個遙不可及的這樣子的立法其實揭弊者保護這件事情我自己深深的感受非常的深刻因為當時我們也代表民眾黨也提過這樣子的版本"},{"start":8901.209,"end":8926.69,"text":"也開過了無數的公聽會那一直要求要希望做這件事這也所以為什麼是這一屆國會民眾黨他的優先法案之一最優先的一個法案因為就是要為了達成這件事情我覺得其實反貪、疏貪這件事情沒有那麼的困難只是我們的決心問題而已而且現在社會上過去這些林林總總的我們甚至"},{"start":8928.619,"end":8957.574,"text":"結成一點時間當時我們要看到要是我們真的有這一部法律像是我們當時的比如說我們的2021年泰盧格號的這樣的一個事情當時也不是說完全都沒有一點點在人內部有去談這件事但是你看我們就犧牲了49條人命我們這樣子的一個結果那更多更多的在公司治理層面其實我之前我自己待過兩年的裁委會"},{"start":8958.928,"end":8975.12,"text":"雖然也有先進說我們有公私治理阿我就講白一點那些公私治理現在是不足的絕對絕對不足的整個監理就是有大問題的所以這些當然就是要徹徹底底的要有裡面的人能夠能夠"},{"start":8976.75,"end":8977.31,"text":"林良榮副教授發言"},{"start":9011.37,"end":9024.172,"text":"主席以及各位委員 各位前進 大家好那我想那個 前面聽了很多的一些相關的這些揭弊 那我想我就簡單的 其實有幾個提綱 那我就逐一的回應"},{"start":9024.878,"end":9045.825,"text":"那過去在回國之後也做了很多相關這方面研究那我先講白了就是作為一個勞動法學者那麼我這裡當然是要來這裡捍衛私部門的勞工一旦受這種揭弊而有不利益的時候那又如何保護他們那當然我是覺得說從剛才很多先進裡面有特別提到就是說這個"},{"start":9048.426,"end":9076.425,"text":"為什麼對於這個揭弊者這個保護法為什麼會拖延這麼久我覺得有一個基本的概念就是說到底就是說為什麼這個揭弊者保護法的立法政策是什麼那麼其實用這樣子的一個名詞是很容易被誤解而且很容易其實大家會有一種疑慮那像日本來講的話他其實講的是所謂的公義通報者的保護法所以說強調是公義"},{"start":9078.546,"end":9103.051,"text":"我就覺得說我們今天不是要強調就是說那個催暴催弊者那麼他要把他污名化我也剛才很贊成那個李聖傑老師講的我們不要把他認為是一個抓爬仔沒有錯但是呢其實就是說呢我會覺得說呢與其說揭弊者我會認為說不如說基於公司的智力然後呢要讓公司更好然後呢所以有這樣子的一個人基於公義"},{"start":9104.372,"end":9122.811,"text":"公義然後出來通報所以說有這樣子的人做這個通報我們是要去保護他所以說我會認為這部法從無論其他的國家來看那麼大部分世界各國裡面實在講的是說因為有一個很勇敢然後做了這樣子的一個通報那麼我們法律要保護他"},{"start":9123.892,"end":9152.435,"text":"所以我會覺得就是說這部法裡面我會覺得是應該要更強調那麼什麼是基於公義那麼一個勇敢的人那麼做了這樣的一個通報這個通報者要去保護他那麼我也很驚訝就是說這樣子的一個世界上各國普遍對於這樣的一個受僱勞工站出來然後通報然後有不利益然後遭受打壓這種情況之下那我們的相關的主管行政機關的立場是什麼"},{"start":9154.278,"end":9174.743,"text":"好像我們台灣是一個那個公會很強的國家好像我們台灣是一個那個好像是勞資很對等的國家應該是完全不是吧那如果各位你們隨便上網的話一查那麼呢因為基於這種所謂的這種通報或者所謂的揭弊那麼有太多太多事部門的勞工呢都受到打壓了"},{"start":9176.103,"end":9201.634,"text":"所以說呢 這個部分的話 那麼我們行政機關的立場是什麼呢那我想 我認為說這個部分呢 其實呢扣連到公司的治理 扣連到最近非常熱門的法律遵守那麼我會覺得呢 這個其實呢 都是這個本身這個法律有很大的意義 所以說我是覺得說應該是從公司的治理 那麼公益的通報的角度來看那麼我這邊有一個幾個提綱 那麼我會想要在就是說"},{"start":9202.867,"end":9219.478,"text":"特別說明一下我會覺得這個法案裡面我看到那個草案裡面甚至連公益這兩個字都不太有提到都直接說是揭弊者保護法草案當然我會覺得說這個部分就會涉及到就是說到底這部法"},{"start":9219.958,"end":9237.693,"text":"你的那個立法的那個政策是什麼你是要是去防弊你要去找弊案還是你要是透過這個法律去保護那個通報的人他的不利益待遇呢那麼我會覺得說這個部分呢那麼本來我就是非常支持行政部門應該是要有連任連任這樣子的一個功能"},{"start":9240.655,"end":9256.469,"text":"可是我們很多相關的這個機關在做啊前面早上很多那個有很多先進有提到了我們包括我們的調查局我們廉政署很多都在做很努力很認真的在做但是呢我會覺得說這個部分就是說呢本來一直全都是要做的"},{"start":9257.349,"end":9282.118,"text":"那麼本來行政機關本就是要依法行政這個本來就要受大家監督的那麼是這個法的功能嗎我是認為說這個應該是這個法的一個真正的作用實在是說那麼有很多我們的比較不容易去看到一些不法的行為那麼這些不法的是組織的內部那麼大家通常都是相安無事都不想要去做"},{"start":9282.538,"end":9286.563,"text":"有人勇敢的去站出來了那麼他受到不利打壓了我們要有一部法 那就保護他那麼我就要問你就是說臺灣現行的內國的法律體系裡面有對這麼勇敢的人揭發了一個組織內部的部法有給予他一個法律上的保護嗎"},{"start":9298.317,"end":9298.357,"text":"委員會公聽會議"},{"start":9315.211,"end":9339.457,"text":"這毋庸置疑啊,但是四部門,四部門就是所謂的盈利嘛,特別是公司嘛當然也不一定是盈利,也就是一些相關的NGO或一些組織那麼呢,這個部分就是說呢,他們的這個公義性是在哪裡那麼我會覺得說,其實我們從過去台灣一路以來,我們發生了很多的一些相關的事件例如說地溝油啊,很多都是這些,都是跟人民的一些利益相關的我會認為呢,應該就是跟公義性有關"},{"start":9341.798,"end":9344.281,"text":"那所以說我會覺得說這個部分如果我們是要著眼於所謂的這個對這種通報者的一個保護的話那麼我在想就是說那麼我們就要看哪一個公部門裡面一個勇敢的人出來保護了出來揭發了"},{"start":9357.617,"end":9358.758,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":9375.927,"end":9401.14,"text":"今天你不要說你是一個內部高發啦你不要說隨便啦你隨便很可能看你今天就是好像不太對就要你把你調部門我前幾天還遇到一個案子說有一位穿著比較清涼一點而已然後主管就是說你這樣子穿不行喔就是連基本的服裝儀容的自由在我們台灣社會都不太容易可以有這樣的保護了所以說各位可以知道說那麼這種敢在組織內部裡面去這種"},{"start":9403.942,"end":9429.768,"text":"做這種通報這種告發的那麼一定是很勇敢那麼所以說這個當然就是說也有需要做如果是一個真實的事件的話當然他就是會要去保護那麼我要講就是說其實一個私部門的一個告發他其實是有很高度的道德衝突跟倫理性的就是說一個受雇的勞工他也很清楚我今天我告發的結果如果不是基於報復的話我會知道我跟公司其實是那個春漢死亡"},{"start":9432.128,"end":9446.63,"text":"其實公司呢他跟員工之間是有命運共同體的他也知道如果今天萬不得已那麼呢我要去揭發的話公司一定會受很大影響公司受很大影響呢他的利益受很大影響我作為他的員工難道我的利益會不受影響嗎一定也會"},{"start":9447.932,"end":9461.992,"text":"這樣的一個思考其實跟公部門的公務員的一個想法不見得完全是一致的所以說我會覺得在公部門裡面他的一個揭發跟市部門的揭發不一樣市部門的一個勞工他更需要保護那麼當然就是說這裡的話"},{"start":9463.669,"end":9481.761,"text":"我們就談到就是說 那麼這樣子的一個保護裡面呢 那麼呢 我們可以去討論就是說 那麼呢 到底有哪一些呢就是說呢 就是揭發的結果 是不是也造成企業的影響 我也同意會造成企業的影響那如果會造成企業的影響的話 我們應該是怎麼樣 我們就是應該是說 讓企業的影響要比較小一點例如說 我常常舉例子說 為什麼台灣的勞動檢查不太做"},{"start":9488.746,"end":9494.128,"text":"因為臺灣勞動檢查一做大家就說那企業這樣子的話很為難所以我們勞動檢查都不太有做可是我們臺灣勞動檢查每年要做的時候都會媒體做得很大都是我們要做勞動檢查囉趕快媒體來報一報媒體報得很大可是媒體從來不去報說到底那個檢查結果如何成效如何是怎麼樣的情況這個大家都不關心的"},{"start":9509.975,"end":9510.395,"text":"通報程序有內到外"},{"start":9529.807,"end":9553.17,"text":"是不是我們讓這個通報的時候的勞工不是一開始就去跟立法委員跟媒體跟相關機關是不是應該要先進行所謂的內部的一個程序讓公司的內部治理有一個調整的機會那麼我們可不可以去考慮說所謂的要揭發不法的一個情勢是不是可以限縮我們是不是特別是有關刑事上的犯罪還是重大行政不法"},{"start":9553.65,"end":9574.25,"text":"我們是可以限縮齁那麼當然我們可以去怎麼樣子呢還可以去做所謂通報時候的這樣子的一個保密好實際上不足了那麼我最後呢我的那個資料裡面有講就是說那行政部門應該如何防灘防灘當然很重要啊但是我這邊沒有時間講了我要講的就是說齁如果我們行政機關呢能夠把他的一個行政作為會議資料能夠更公開的話"},{"start":9575.051,"end":9601.622,"text":"更公開那麼我會覺得其實全民來監督其實有沒有這麼法律也不重要但是我們行政的一個相關資料都非常難取得非常難以知道是不是我們是不是應該有立法有這樣的一個行政的一個相關的會議程序程序資料可以上網那麼其實最近在日本我看到他們那個內部高發他們是以四部門為主他們也是用公部門結果公部門適用的結果全部爆發的結果都是在地方政府為什麼"},{"start":9602.802,"end":9623.398,"text":"因為地方政府很多都是胡搞瞎搞胡搞瞎搞的結果呢結果就變成是大家說哇原來地方政府原來是這樣子這樣子的大問題喔那麼我會覺得另外一個問題日本也是最近說因為這個AI時代發展AI時代發生很多資訊呢它其實也影響了很多的一個公益揭弊的這樣子的一個促進它的發展那以上簡單 謝謝好 謝謝那下一位我們請葛傳宇主任發言"},{"start":9633.38,"end":9633.403,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9646.391,"end":9650.254,"text":"大家好,我是葛傳宇,我是台灣藝術大學通識中心的主任。同時,我也是之前連續擔任6年國際透明組織的會籍認證委員。"},{"start":9668.317,"end":9673.461,"text":"反貪腐是不應該有顏色也沒有顏色這是人民的共同心願有效的監督政府必須要有屠龍刀跟倚天劍刀劍合一才能夠見效"},{"start":9697.218,"end":9720.727,"text":"國會調查權就是屠龍刀而公義揭弊者保護法就是倚天見從國際趨勢還有確保政府連結透明這兩個觀點立法是不可或缺的這也是我們大家的共識而不應該是政黨對立的爭議話題這是我的結論接下來我要論述了我本人長期從事參與"},{"start":9723.988,"end":9751.648,"text":"秘書處位於德國柏林的國際透明組織這個透明組織從1995年到1993年到現在長期領導全球的反貪運動我們連政署有長期的合作關係互動非常密切今年的年底會有更進一步的交流各位要了解國際透明組織他這些年來最重要的有很重要的攻擊包括了"},{"start":9753.274,"end":9772.44,"text":"OECD的反行會公約還有聯合國的反貪腐公約他的幕後都是大國配合NGO尤其是國際透明組織促成的那我自己本身連續擔任6年的國際透明組織的會級認證委員專門審查各國的會級還有他們的各國在各國倡議反貪的績效跟表現我自己歸納出來審查各國的反貪腐經驗就是"},{"start":9783.157,"end":9807.655,"text":"沒有法律保障的貪腐爆料或檢舉效果是非常差的會遭到報復因為人民害怕沒有法律保障會遭到報復而不敢檢舉有時候連匿名檢舉都不敢更嚴重的是他等於變相鼓勵政府濫權肆無忌憚地打擊政治對手"},{"start":9810.56,"end":9836.313,"text":"我特別要提醒我們在台灣是自由民主的社會我們比起很多我審查過的開發中國家我覺得真的很欣慰至少我有言論自由我可以表達書裡面從來沒有找過我麻煩反而我們還是長期的合作我真的很感謝我們政府部門的寬宏大量更重要其實是來自我們憲法架構的保護那既然憲法架構有保護接下來我要論述了"},{"start":9837.173,"end":9857.208,"text":"立法委員本來就有憲法賦予的高度保障的言論免責權再加上新增的國會調查權可以說是對立法委員相對的保障完善可是人民呢?我們人民是沒有這些特權的只有抽象的言論自由而不是言論免責權"},{"start":9860.886,"end":9888.909,"text":"如果沒有賦予人民適當的法律保障鼓勵他們尤其是內部人尤其是內部人合法的揭發貪腐弊端的話就有可能發生心有餘而力不足的果足不前還有他們會害怕被秋後算帳因此而長期的活在陰影裡面擔心受怕我們政府其實是有法律義務法律的義務要立法保障揭弊者"},{"start":9889.864,"end":9899.544,"text":"就法理而言,台灣已經施行聯合國反貪腐公約施行法也就是說當我們把國際公約轉化成國內法之後"},{"start":9900.58,"end":9915.529,"text":"我們臺灣政府就有法律義務要遵循聯合國反貪腐公約有關於保護揭弊者的立法規定更何況我要特別提醒在座2018年還有2023年我們臺灣先後兩次舉行大規模而盛大的聯合國反貪腐公約國際審查"},{"start":9924.192,"end":9952.962,"text":"各位知道嗎先後各有5次大咖的國際專家來台灣審查我們台灣的這個反貪腐的國家廉政建設跟績效其中這10位專家他們非常重視的其中一個話題就是為什麼我們的揭弊者保護法嚴當不前啊為各位講一個小故事我自己接觸因為兩次我都全程參與這裡面也有很多我長期互動的好朋友"},{"start":9954.5,"end":9982.298,"text":"第一次2018年我們國際審查的時候我不曉得馮署長那時候在不在會場光是這個議題立法聖結你應該在嘛光是這個議題我們討論了一兩個小時國際審查委員一直追問一直追問為什麼其實那時候對我們台灣是充滿了期待跟肯定的因為至少我們提出了草案我們那個時候羅秉成政委還很有信心的說我們就會積極的推動"},{"start":9984.602,"end":10008.422,"text":"可是到了2023年第二次國際審查的時候各位知道嗎整個審查會議談到這題的時候很快就帶過了沒有進度啊為什麼沒有進度因為審查委員後來跟我講他說沒有什麼好討論的啊你們五年來進度是零啊而且法案還退回到法務部廉政署的科長的電腦裡面"},{"start":10010.683,"end":10026.052,"text":"各位想想看我們花了這麼大的力氣舉辦聯合國反貪腐公約的國際審查不就是希望能夠大內宣也大外宣讓國際來肯定我們的廉政績效嗎結果呢你看我們自己打臉不是很可惜嗎"},{"start":10027.435,"end":10028.595,"text":"國際審查委員會主席"},{"start":10049.58,"end":10067.413,"text":"主長部長您知道嗎?到了第二次國際審查的時候有一百多項國際建議當然有些是很多肯定的但是更多的是他們提出問題來認為我們嚴當沒有解決各位想想看第三次國際審查我們要如何誠實的面對來自這些大咖的國際委員"},{"start":10071.554,"end":10097.65,"text":"這個法務部一向很自豪我們台灣的國際青蓮印象指數CPI排名逐年進步上升這是事實可是部長署長還有在座各位長官你們知道嗎我們在國外國大咖學者的文獻裡面都都是英文文獻這些大咖文件裡面至少有三次他提到台灣的廉政署是紙老虎paper tiger三次"},{"start":10099.622,"end":10119.361,"text":"在座的各位先進各位想想如果您是國際讀者請問您是相信廉政署的新聞稿還是相信外國大咖學者的學術評論這對我們國家形象是不是很大的影響跟打擊但是我們不能因為這樣子就斷絕交往我反而覺得我們更要加強國際交流讓他們了解我們是有決心而且我們真的有在做事情"},{"start":10121.557,"end":10125.339,"text":"政府各部會在國際審查的時候的抗拒心態我講一下我們在國際審查的時候很多各機關的代表他們要嘛"},{"start":10150.356,"end":10172.843,"text":"就說這個我回去問一下要嘛說我今天會後晚上或明天再提供對不對可是各位你知道嗎國際審查委員認為什麼要嘛你沒有準備嘛要不然你授權不足嘛那你來開會幹嘛對不對為什麼不能我問完之後你馬上打電話回去就資料就回來了可是常常發生這樣已經兩次了國際審查委員覺得那你這樣不是浪費我時間嗎"},{"start":10174.656,"end":10186.311,"text":"很可惜了政府跨部門的各單位在立法的過程中抗拒立法的心態其實我歸納一下主要是很擔心會發生苛刺海現象"},{"start":10188.282,"end":10215.916,"text":"就是濫訴濫控我認為這其實是對刑法的誤解而且日本的實務經驗正好相反2004年日本公義通報者保護法施行以來嚴格的正當法律程序並沒有出現濫訴濫控的現象而且我知道我們台灣政府行政部門的版本一直都非常嚴謹的規範有三項保護政策剛才聖傑老師有提到所以我其實是有信心的"},{"start":10216.994,"end":10237.744,"text":"因此本人建議為了能夠明確有效的執法應該把公義揭弊者保護法立法目的就明定規定限縮在依聯合國反貪腐公約僅限揭發公部門或私部門的貪腐以及侵佔背信罪其他像人權勞工食品安全等等公共議題暫時不要納入"},{"start":10239.685,"end":10260.499,"text":"不要納入結果這樣子但他們還是可以用單行法規或行政命令的方式准用揭弊者保護法這樣的方式才能夠讓我們這部法律趕快上路而且是嚴謹的上路僅限縮在公益揭弊者保護揭發貪腐就公司部門的貪腐以上是我簡單的報告謝謝大家"},{"start":10264.282,"end":10266.664,"text":"主席,我們公聽會與會的學者先進"},{"start":10279.909,"end":10280.029,"text":"政務機關首長"},{"start":10297.757,"end":10297.877,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":10325.452,"end":10325.592,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":10348.951,"end":10349.151,"text":"公聽會委員：完整會議"},{"start":10369.168,"end":10391.423,"text":"在特許行業的部份銀行因為是涉及到大眾資金銀行法45條之一他也說要求要建立內部控制及集合制度這也是以內控為主另外涉及到大眾食品安全相關的食品業者在食安法也有第13條這裡面又具體的指出對於檢舉人身份資料要嚴守秘密甚至要給予獎勵這是既有的法當中的一些相關規定我們再往下看"},{"start":10392.003,"end":10409.723,"text":"那目前呢 金融業他基本上還是以內機內控法尊制度以內控優先 舉例來講銀行的職員發現上司的禮專疑似挪用客戶資金他可以選擇向主管機關或內部單位檢舉但是因為銀行法第45條之一的立法理由 他說銀行應先建立內部控制制度"},{"start":10410.183,"end":10426.593,"text":"作為內部積核之依據﹐使金融危機在發生初期﹐及得掌握基先事實上他還是強調的﹐內部應該有一個制度﹐先從內部去進行必要的調查所以我們看到最後的結果大概會怎麼樣走就往下看"},{"start":10428.113,"end":10445.521,"text":"根據銀行業的內控集合辦法第3條之2這當中就有提到檢舉人要發現有疑似違法的情形他可以匿名檢舉但是會有內部的專責部門先來調查有無違司如果有就再由相關的主管機關比如金管會開始調查"},{"start":10446.681,"end":10447.222,"text":"到目前為止我們就一個疑問了"},{"start":10463.482,"end":10463.782,"text":"中小企業佔全體企業98%以上"},{"start":10483.061,"end":10507.547,"text":"那如果一個5人的公司20人的公司那麼通常遇到這種情況會有什麼情況呢舉例來講曾經就發生過有離職員工去烏龍爆料照說如果你對於你所處的企業有些弊端損失到公共的利益你可以向政府部門檢舉但是我們實務上看到的可能就直接跟媒體爆料透過報導那麼引起相關單位的注意那開始進行調查"},{"start":10508.607,"end":10508.627,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10527.734,"end":10550.589,"text":"那基本上呢 我們另外在調查中受理揭弊的單位的保密義務範圍可能包括監察院 政風 檢警調 其他部門都有一個適用不公開的原則對於揭弊者的身份都應該要保守但是對於被揭弊者以及揭弊的弊案內容比如說目前所謂的偵查不公開事實上也是相對的在案情未明朗之前也避免因為偵查的過程當中造成被偵查者的一個名譽的損失所以這種情況之下"},{"start":10555.552,"end":10574.78,"text":"除了對於揭弊者的身份的保密之外對於揭弊者內容的案件的保密要到什麼程度這是一個我們可以探討的範圍最後最後我們來看到調查後如果是惡意揭弊者的身份是不是同樣的保密呢如果為真當然揭弊者要保持他的身份避免被做不當的不利的處分但是如果所接的弊案是假而且是惡意的"},{"start":10575.7,"end":10575.82,"text":"謝謝總召委"},{"start":10605.112,"end":10622.291,"text":"所有學術專家跟登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢那我們接著進行政府機關代表的發言請各位政府機關代表待會就就書面資料以外的部分做普通說明就可以了"},{"start":10623.291,"end":10623.671,"text":"法務部政務部長"},{"start":10657.022,"end":10664.338,"text":"主席還有委員還有與會的學者專家還有大家早安"},{"start":10665.852,"end":10694.108,"text":"法務部推動揭弊者保護法草案的這個期間我們非常感謝委員跟各位先進提供非常寶貴的一個建議那在此感謝各位委員跟先進那今天奉要列席貴委員會的一個公聽會希望能促進社會各界重視揭弊者的一個權利的保護那本部是一直是積極的一個推動相關的立法工作我想剛才"},{"start":10695.407,"end":10718.914,"text":"學者：專家對這方面加以肯定我們也是非常注意收集各界的接力緊就這次公聽會討論的提綱我做一個補充的說明首先強調本部的立法隊公事部門揭弊者的保護都是同樣的重視保護方法當然有很多不同的"},{"start":10719.874,"end":10719.894,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10742.915,"end":10764.213,"text":"本部書面報告本部是從101年起推動立法工作一直都是公私分立公佈先行這是剛才有學者做一個很充分的介紹後來是因為社會與民情陸續調整為公私合併那一部分實在我也"},{"start":10764.733,"end":10779.468,"text":"有做一個努力的一個推動那後來變成是一個公事合併算是三位公事版這些都是有擴大保護範圍到私部門但也聽到不同的一個聲音譬如剛才有提到以後濫用是不是有一些的黑暗的一個問題"},{"start":10780.809,"end":10780.829,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10797.609,"end":10817.178,"text":"有其他一些的困難所以在今年2月本部會第一行政任職調整為公私分流行政立法雙軌並行一方面考量社會對公部門青年要求也比較高而且公部門法律也比較完善對這個弊端也比較能夠特定出來"},{"start":10818.499,"end":10836.52,"text":"希望透過行政指導來輔導私部門,讓公司保留對營運及人事運用的彈性,以有循序方式來深化揭弊的保護,再逐步將私部門納入揭弊法制。"},{"start":10837.621,"end":10859.603,"text":"有關提綱二部分：對委員提出這個提綱：各產業界各別訂定揭弊的保護措施：讓企業自己的規模、產業特性：及人事控管者成本等這個做法：就是要讓施部門：能夠符合自己保護的一個做法：其實是跟"},{"start":10861.294,"end":10878.915,"text":"目前的立法政策其實是其實是契合的是契合的可以使企業更量身能夠個案就自己的量身定做符合自己需求的一個揭弊條文也可以深化揭弊者保護的理念那我想這可以加速成本"},{"start":10880.657,"end":10880.677,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10896.877,"end":10924.757,"text":"立法目的如果偏重弊端的一個發覺 發見真實會以外部通報來做一個優先但我們也擔心這個烏龍爆料會影響機關跟企業的一個信任力保護揭弊者權利同時重視被揭弊者這個權利的一個保護另外我們也是基於內部自行建立內部通報機制也有這個一個必要性所以內部通報優先或者內部通報並行都是揭弊者"},{"start":10925.237,"end":10925.737,"text":"公聽會．委員．學者．專家．"},{"start":10952.099,"end":10981.1,"text":"推動立法：那個修法的：立法的重要的一個參考以上報告敬請主席各位指教謝謝好 謝謝鄭部長那下一位我們請司法院行事廳副廳長陳副廳長好 沒有補充意見好 謝謝副廳長那下一位我們請權敍部法規司副市長藍副市長好 沒有補充的好"},{"start":10982.776,"end":10986.322,"text":"那下一位我們請行政院人事行政總處綜合規劃處副處長副處長有沒有補充的"},{"start":10995.91,"end":11018.324,"text":"今天的公聽會發言到此告一段落感謝所有與會者從不同的面向提供很多寶貴的意見今天各位所有的發言內容還有書面意見我們都會列入記錄刊登公報並且製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及本日出席留言參考"},{"start":11020.752,"end":11024.641,"text":"本次公聽會到此結束謝謝大家現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16077","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16077","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d24c05d0b3147a607b6918ac9a81339754f242ceca9577839443126d01feb8f0f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-08T08:31:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T11:47:00+08:00","duration":11759,"影片長度":"03:15:59","委員發言時間":"08:31:01 - 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tart":2179.853,"end":2200.732,"text":"包括外車進入到我們營區我們是要求外車都必須要關閉行車記錄器那即使他的車輛是因為有所謂的這種電動車沒有辦法關閉行車記錄器我們也都會事前通報請他更換車輛再到我們營區那或是沒有更換車輛到了營區門口就必須下車走進來所以我們的部分的營區的這些治安的管理還算到位"},{"start":2201.465,"end":2227.96,"text":"因為我現在聽到了營區您說是營區那現在聽到說包含三軍總醫院、國防大學、海軍艦隊都有使用華為或者是相關中國製的路由器所以我想之後相關的定義還是希望局長能夠分享給其他的不管是國防部還是相關的這一個部分對因為剛剛各位說明是我們在這部分已經有做一些蠻完整的規劃那我們會把我們的經驗跟其他國軍的單位來分享"},{"start":2228.44,"end":2252.014,"text":"剛才局長您提到營區嘛對營區那我想請問喔國防院是不是營區委員指的是國防安全研究院對他應該還是在國防部整體的還是營區嘛對那我們最近有聽到說這一個營區裡面有來自中國那惠豐銀行那也是政協的這一個高層進入營區那進入營區的時候他錯置他的護照號碼這樣相關的資訊有沒有掌握"},{"start":2256.437,"end":2283.351,"text":"對 因為這部分 個案的部分國防部已經有做一些查處了啦那我想我們尊重國防部查處的狀況那對於這一些相關的內案我們也會來加強透過剛剛跟委員提到的不管是政戰局或軍安總隊在國軍的系統來增加一些宣導的一個機會因為局長因為我剛才提到這幾個案件一件接著一件那每一件他們都是不管是採購中國的這個產品或者是"},{"start":2284.031,"end":2304.574,"text":"中國政協的人是直接進入營區這一些都理論上都應該要事先查核事先排除啊但是我們現在聽起來就國防院的說法好像是還有前官員說這又沒有涉及機敏事項所以只要他們說轉述沒有涉及機敏事項那就可以進去就可以錯知護照號碼嗎"},{"start":2305.911,"end":2331.514,"text":"以我們局裡面來講我們大概一般都是從眼來查核這一方面的營區進入的一個管制我還是強調就是說這不是任何一個人的問題我想從營區到不管是哪一個單位那既然有這個制度我們就把它遵守那也不要就是說特別針對是因為哪一個研究員怎樣我們不針對哪一個研究員不針對哪一個人我們針對的是這件事情那如果要查核就查核"},{"start":2332.415,"end":2356.639,"text":"不能說這個主觀認定這涉不涉及機敏事項但是我們對之前國防部長有提到說應該就涉密的內容而不是說他的關節的大小所以如果可以排除掉那就排除掉沒有關係但如果已經有這個制度掉那就確實要執行比方說你說這個路由器那我覺得就是必須要徹底執行那如果說一些非機敏的設備現在這個中國製的設備也很多種"},{"start":2359.64,"end":2388.47,"text":"但是跟資訊相關的就請局長務必我們這個有相關的情節務必要來分享給其他的這些國防安全相關的部門對這制度面的問題對我們來加強這個要麻煩因為這個包含矽谷他們都在加大員工的審查我是希望我們的國防單位過去我在日商在企業的時候我們去各個不管只是面板產業還不是半導體產業當我們進入之前首先要看我們的身份證"},{"start":2389.448,"end":2409.333,"text":"看完身份證之後 我也沒有要涉密啊 為什麼要涉密啊進入他們對他們來講智慧的這個財產的核心 就是核心所以他們不管你 包含電腦 事先都要先這個放在那個管理室過去我們在商界的時候 商業界的時候 在做這個在日商工作的時候 就是最基本的 你進入他們的廠區喔報車號"},{"start":2412.352,"end":2433.714,"text":"然後你要把你的身份證提出來然後你要把你的電腦手機全部拿出去讓他們在那邊做檢核甚至就不能帶進去我不明白說如果只是這個過去那個時候是7年前8年前只是在面板產業就用這樣子的方式來去做核實那我們現在在國防部或者是相關的營區特別是國防院96%的預算"},{"start":2436.316,"end":2459.277,"text":"國防部提供的那我認為還是有相關的機敏性那當然他是文職人員比較多我們可以理解啦但是見為之助嘛其他的這些比較重要的營區我希望說未來還是有統一的一套系統這部分我們會非常的來注意啦那就管局來講我們自己的營區管理是用最嚴格的標準有任何的廠商進入到營區都有專人陪同然後任何的各支"},{"start":2459.497,"end":2460.458,"text":"中共增加國安法令附中風險"},{"start":2475.959,"end":2490.298,"text":"局長你認為現在國人腹中旅遊危不危險應該是這麼講我們是要先預判說我們是不是跟政界有關係那沒關係了就可以去嗎還是其實這個危險程度你是怎麼去定義的"},{"start":2491.079,"end":2514.742,"text":"因為在上一屆的立法院的專案報告我們有特別去警示因為當時是因為7月1號有中國的那個相關的反間諜法的一個法案的一個推動那以及今年又有所謂的保守國家秘密法的提出那我們還是認為說到對岸去應該要來警示我們國人可能相關的一個旅遊或經商入境的一個風險那也跟委員報告一下從"},{"start":2515.943,"end":2536.304,"text":"去年到現在大概已經有15位的國人在進入到鹿港澳的地區遭到中共的拘留審判那另外有51位的國人在入境的過程當中遭到中共的留置巡查那我們覺得案例有增加的趨勢那對於整個附入風險的提高我想我們尊重權責單位陸委會在這部分把那個"},{"start":2537.665,"end":2542.087,"text":"其實我在6月6號的時候這個是另外一個跟最開始的第一題是有關聯的我有直接質詢到說關於英國倫敦的醫院遭害"},{"start":2565.396,"end":2591.646,"text":"那其實最近應該也是這一兩天三軍總運院因為不明的原因去故障所以改人工的方式那相關的情資有沒有掌握到有沒有是由外部進來的還是只是單純的內部的故障有沒有聽到相關的情資這案子在第一時間就有進行通報那我們得到的報告的內容是排除外力侵害的可能性可能是內部系統管理的問題不過我們還是會繼續來查查實際的原因到底是什麼"},{"start":2592.026,"end":2619.393,"text":"內部管理的問題那剛好是一個很好的機會來去審視因為它是屬於我們的關鍵基礎設施關鍵基礎設施因為這一個在英國的這個倫敦的醫院我們剛剛提到6月6號我在質詢的時候就已經有提過了那就確實是從外部的因素那現在既然是內部的話那就剛好是一個做好準備我們看到第一時間在這個總醫院他們是開始採用人工的方式來去做掛號登記那我的意思是說包含我們的一些重要的關鍵基礎設施的話如果遇到"},{"start":2619.753,"end":2620.654,"text":"國安局提醒各部會要繼續加強相關機制與演練規劃"},{"start":2650.353,"end":2663.402,"text":"謝謝局長,因為其實聽局長剛才的說法那如果我們全部都落實的話那基本上之前我們剛剛提到的採購上的問題那就都不會發生了對,很多真的是在執行面的問題對,老師跟委員報告"},{"start":2665.123,"end":2693.143,"text":"所以我們同時要做一些大膽的嘗試可是其實最基礎的東西都要做好因為其實就像我們你剛剛提到的關鍵基礎設施那關鍵基礎設施的保護完善那我們現在說很多要用AI的方式用加入這個攝影機或者是部署相關的警力這些其實在最前端之前如果我們首先先確保我們這些關鍵基礎設施的使用"},{"start":2693.883,"end":2693.903,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":2724.821,"end":2728.484,"text":"接下來請沈博洋委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請局長謝謝請蔡局長"},{"start":2752.132,"end":2768.896,"text":"學長好,不好意思,因為今天下面衝突比較多,我穿得比較隨興一點。我知道今天很多人是想要來問我的部分,但是我不太想要把這個質詢台變成一個造謠大會。但是我想先從一個小案子開始。那這個案子是在講這個高雄的兵馬俑。"},{"start":2770.036,"end":2796.13,"text":"他其實有兩個層次,完全不同層次的問題第一個他是資安的疑慮我覺得這個其實還算清楚第二個就是因為看到新聞報導也有團體提出可能有這個統戰的疑慮他們提到這個宋慶林基金會因為他有前政協副主席在裡面他現在應該是理事長之類的,是主席我想問一下目前對這一件事情宋慶林基金會他在台灣舉辦活動的狀況國安局目前的掌握大概是什麼樣子"},{"start":2796.57,"end":2823.746,"text":"我想對於兩岸一些相關的一個交流只要是合法正常的交流我們大概都抱持尊重的一個態度那以委員提到這個案例他因為有治安的風險那我所知道的是在這個事情被揭露之後那主辦單位應該是科工館也有進行了一些相關查處的動作那第一時間我看他們也對外說明一旦相關的系統有涉及到中資的軟體的話那他們一定會在第一時間把它移除"},{"start":2824.426,"end":2845.781,"text":"我看相關的處置過程還算有注意到資安風險的控管好 謝謝局長因為我個人也認為這是兩件分開的事情他如果有資安的疑慮當然應該要處理但他是不是統戰其實應該是另外一件事因為他即使有這一個政協副主席前政協副主席的一個身份在但他到底在台灣是從事什麼活動這些活動有沒有違反反滲透法那又是另外一件事"},{"start":2846.161,"end":2863.039,"text":"現在看起來它是一個單純的交流但是問題就出在說如果這個交流以後繼續往下進行有人開始有一些利益的輸送等等之類的話那就可能是國安局必須要掌握的事但是就是藉由這一個我想再往下問就是這一個今天大家最關心的就是這一個"},{"start":2863.859,"end":2882.194,"text":"中媒記者丁燒這件事情這個局長一定很熟悉所以我完全可以跳過這個案例那我想問的事情是因為我在記者會的時候這是我記者會的逐字稿我那時候有說幾分證據講幾分話那我在這邊有發現一件很奇怪的事情就是因為長期我們研究過非常多類似的個案"},{"start":2882.754,"end":2907.976,"text":"那在這邊呢 以往他會接觸媒體或政論節目我很少是遇到中國記者直接是作為接觸者他大部分是透過台灣人自己透過某一個台灣人他這個人是什麼職業我們不知道但再藉由這個去接觸這個媒體所以想問一下就是現在是直接中國記者進來這件事情根據自由時報的報導這一個對國安局來講是一個不常見的現象還是已經有掌握的現象"},{"start":2909.37,"end":2925.206,"text":"對於相關的中國在台注點記者的一些相關的一個活動我想應該都有經過陸委會相關或文化部相關的一個合訂才會進來那至於他們進來之後有沒有去"},{"start":2926.307,"end":2948.705,"text":"進行一些違反他們申請來台目的的一些動作那我們國安團隊都有在注意這是第一點跟委員做說明那第二部分是針對這個個案的部分因為我們在收獲相關的情資之後也有做一些資訊的比對那因為國安局並沒有司法調查權所以我們只能把有這樣的一個樣態來移送到調查局來進行徵處那調查局也立刻進行的所謂的立案的調查"},{"start":2949.346,"end":2961.792,"text":"那因為也有其他國內的媒體人針對這案子來提告新華社的記者那所以我所知道的是高檢署也已經開始立案在偵辦所以整個案子因為進入到司法的過程我們不適合做太多公開的說明或評論"},{"start":2962.452,"end":2988.257,"text":"好 這個我沒有問題因為我知道國民黨很關心我到底有通報調查單位所以這個真的是非常無聊的一件事但是我這邊想要問兩個問題第一個就是 陸委會的問題我待會問第一個問題是他在台灣因為記者要進來他一定需要有一個對口嘛他需要有人做介紹嘛就是要有人就是類似像擔保的一個角色他才能夠進來然後去做一些他在目的內的這個行動那在這個個案裡面有沒有掌握是誰邀請他進來"},{"start":2989.823,"end":3018.356,"text":"對就...不一定要講...那個...不一定要講...我是說有沒有掌握就好對 個案的一個接待的安排或規劃我想應該由審核單位來做說明會比較詳細那我剛剛跟委員說明的是即使他們是經過個案申請到台灣來從事相關的採報的活動我們國安單位關注的重點是在於他有沒有違反當時申請來台的目的那這部分因為我們在國安團隊都有一些專案在推動那我們會持續的來注意因為在這個案子裡面呢重點是他有沒有做目的外行為嗎"},{"start":3019.016,"end":3040.821,"text":"如果他是合法合規進入到台灣然後去做相關的事情這個其實沒有事但怕是他做了目的外的行為但能夠去掌握他做目的外行為的有可能有國安團隊可能有陸委會或者文化部另外一個就是中間人因為中間人畢竟是邀請他來的如果邀請他來的人他比較能夠掌握這個人現在在做什麼嘛例如說他可能來到我"},{"start":3041.201,"end":3041.341,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3061.795,"end":3083.668,"text":"中間要怎麼去抓到假設今天他中間換了變成他有中資或者說事後才發現這個事情那應該要怎麼辦那回到這個案例其實也是一樣的意思就是說如果我們能夠掌握到是誰邀請他來這一個人理論上應該是要讓我們知道他有沒有去做目的外行為那現在我想另外問陸委會的就是說那以陸委會或者文化部現在的量能來講"},{"start":3084.548,"end":3084.688,"text":"森委員你好"},{"start":3101.67,"end":3124.803,"text":"一般陸媒在進來台灣以後他大概都是三個月一遷那因為但是陸委會跟不管是陸委會也好或是文化部也好我們沒有這樣的量能去掌握記者每一天的動態這是不可能的那在法令上面我們也不會去這樣做"},{"start":3127.11,"end":3153.919,"text":"好那所以呢在如果說他沒有辦法長期知道說這個人沒有做目的外行為的話那有可能第一個我們是要增加量能這是我在那個那場記者會後面的建議那另外一個我能夠想到的就是中間人的回報機制因為以往的像我在質詢這個像退服會啊什麼等等之類的時候也是因為知道他們中間人很多做旅行社那有哪些人做旅行社他可能比較有可能去做相關的一些統戰行為的時候這些人掌握了你能夠回報"},{"start":3154.679,"end":3179.451,"text":"那陸委會也才能夠得知﹖得知之後才能夠做採處﹖或者說任何的處分等等之類的那我一直很希望說這一個機制能夠被建立起來因為我認為是重要的那最後我還想另外一個問題就是說在這個新聞的隔一天而已報紙就刊出來說這是所謂的國安單位有說滲透台灣的這五個不同的手法第一個我還蠻熟悉的就是租用攝影棚那這個2345是目前已經有掌握到確實的個案嗎"},{"start":3181.938,"end":3198.437,"text":"因為這是媒體報導轉述國安單位那因為不是來自本局的資訊我沒有辦法做更進一步的澄清所以這個來源因為他才寫是來自於國安單位所以到底為什麼會有這一個我們並不是那麼的了解而且他也沒有包含到我們現在因為可以看到第二個是駐台人員直接對"},{"start":3198.997,"end":3200.819,"text":"媒體下指導期這個就比較符合剛剛前面討論到的微信群組這個以前有發生過這個在那個17、18、19的時候有發生過那4跟5這個部分可能是比較像是交際型的"},{"start":3214.349,"end":3242.371,"text":"那所以呢這個是我剛剛講的齁這是我們整理的各式各樣違反反滲透法的一些個案中間都有所謂的中間人齁所以很多人都一直常常在問齁說統戰的證據在哪裡齁那大家可以仔細看這全部都是啦OK嗎這全部都是統戰的證據齁而且這些呢很多都是已經被起訴的或者已經被羈押的齁這些全部都是齁案子其實非常的多所以呢有些人會說到底統戰的證據在哪裡齁我覺得我對這個當然是有點疑惑然後這一個呢就是我們以前在民間自己調查的案子齁"},{"start":3242.791,"end":3260.139,"text":"大概100多件我這邊只列出來一些些而已所以就是說這些案子真的很多但他永遠我們面臨的狀況永遠都是中間人到底是誰因為這些人不管是中國的資源他能夠到台灣來他中間一定要有一個對口那個對口其實很重要那如果我們能掌握這個對口這個對口也不是要處罰他"},{"start":3260.959,"end":3285.299,"text":"第一個可能透明化第二個就像剛剛講的如果我們知道對口這個新華社記者的單位是誰他如果能夠定期幫忙回報說在這一個月他目的內行為是做什麼然後呢他有沒有去做其他的行為如果有時候其他的行為他有一定的責任那監管單位也有一定的責任的話那這種事情就不容易發生嘛那當然我們是假設這是事實但到底調查單位會查到這個什麼樣的結果這個我們還是不明瞭啦"},{"start":3285.959,"end":3313.497,"text":"但是在這邊還是還是要說就是說我覺得從源頭從中間人來打擊我認為是一個比較好的方案那問題是這一個法令要怎麼設計我目前來講我只有設計在跟立委跟關鍵基礎設施相關的所以也很希望我們能夠在休會期的時候跟國安局跟陸委會再度討論這方面的法案要怎麼設計看能不能在9月之後我們提出一些針對中間人的一些做法而且跟反滲透法是有不同的"},{"start":3313.757,"end":3314.438,"text":"我不知道有沒有這樣的機會"},{"start":3343.837,"end":3366.06,"text":"所以跟委員說明的是我們一直希望能堅持一個比較完整全面的一個國安偵訪的一個體系避免中共滲透謝謝委員的舉行謝謝這方面我是了解就是說以現有的法律不管是國安無法還是反滲透法但我擔心的就是譬如說像新華社這一類的案子我們先不要把他無法發聲假設今天有類似像這樣的案子他是一個灰色地帶因為畢竟按照兩岸條例現在的規定其實就是請他走而已"},{"start":3366.6,"end":3367.001,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢"},{"start":3398.052,"end":3410.933,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請國安局的局長然後文化部的政務次長請蔡局長、文化部次長好 謝謝主席 委員好"},{"start":3415.454,"end":3439.666,"text":"兩位好其實這個問題我上禮拜就想問只不過說上禮拜外交國防委員會就莫名其妙也沒開會事實上就宣布開會了休息到天荒地老後來就莫名其妙上會了上禮拜我相信局長也很辛苦在下面枯坐了非常非常的久今天有機會就是要跟局長詢問的是過去這個禮拜"},{"start":3441.927,"end":3463.475,"text":"從我揭發以來越來越多人關心就是說中國的資通訊產品用在我們的軍事要塞裡面這件事情很嚴重之前國安會就說過了八大關鍵基礎設施禁用中國設備那我們的軍事要塞算是八大關鍵基礎設施嗎?"},{"start":3466.489,"end":3477.601,"text":"請國安局長在我們的八大關鍵基礎設施主要是依照2020年的滋通安全管理法所列定的這個我知道那裡面有軍事要塞嗎對 裡面沒有特別去強調軍事要塞那你覺得這樣對嗎"},{"start":3479.168,"end":3507.615,"text":"因為這主要是涉及到行政院跟國防部把軍事要塞跟關鍵基礎設施他有做特別不同的處理那沒有關係嘛第一個事情是這個問題其實我之前就問過了啦我們的軍事要塞竟然沒有列在關鍵基礎設施我又覺得非常的扯啦非常多教授也對這個事情提出非常猛烈的批判但軍事要塞他的重要性絕對不會亞於關鍵基礎設施這個局長你認同嗎我同意同意嗎好"},{"start":3508.855,"end":3537.494,"text":"所以國安局之前在2022年的時候就說中國的自通訊軟體有嚴重的治安危險這個是在2022年的時候就已經跟全體國人講過了結果沒有想到我們國家拿納稅人30億去投資的綠能國家隊這不是普通的公司這家公司本來要掛啦虧了一百多億要掛啦"},{"start":3538.935,"end":3563.083,"text":"結果我們的民進黨政府拿納稅的30億本來是國發基金變成紓困基金紓困給這家公司以後從我們的國發基金進去到現在又虧了100多億這個是國發會要處理的問題但讓我詫異的事情是什麼我們的綠能國家隊是不是變成第五縱隊我為什麼會這樣講既然在裡面裝中國製的逆變器"},{"start":3569.435,"end":3596.06,"text":"這我很早以前就揭露也請他們去查結果查了以後我們的我也不曉得國防部真的有把國家安全放在心上嗎查下去以後回報的說對他裝的是逆變器在南洋指揮部南洋指揮部是軍事要塞我們的國軍弟兄在那邊大概有3000個人結果的後來發現還不是"},{"start":3599.81,"end":3608.465,"text":"只有逆變器中國製的路由器、工業電腦全部都放在這裡面從國安局的角度來講這件事嚴不嚴重"},{"start":3610.233,"end":3637.895,"text":"我想就那個綠能的發展是國家重要政策政府的相關部會包括國防部在配合過程當中也應該要注意到一些資通訊產品安全的問題這顯然就沒注意嘛應該要注意嘛顯然沒注意嘛不過也跟委員說明一下我們知道的是在契約當中好像也有提到類似要進行這就是我今天要請教國安局的重點啦你們知道了這件事情了以後到目前為止採取了什麼行動"},{"start":3639.042,"end":3663.854,"text":"你們有沒有去了解裝了多久傳輸了多少data到目前為止有了解這件事嗎有我們去了解相關的狀況那也跟國防部這邊有保持聯繫那我們會把我們了解以後的結果是什麼我們會提供給國防部來查處那對外的說明由主管機關國防部來對外說你們了解的結果有沒有涉及到國家機密方不方便給所有的委員知道你們查處的結果因為我很關心啊"},{"start":3664.827,"end":3672.593,"text":"那個不是裝在裡面被抓到拆下來就算了耶裝上去以後到被抓到為止中間這段時間發生了什麼事"},{"start":3674.741,"end":3702.35,"text":"你們國安局說這是非常嚴重的國安威脅那從抓上去以後到現在發生什麼事顯然國安局就有責任要查處嘛我應該沒說錯吧主責機關還是在國防部啦那國防部調查過程需要我們來提供相關的資訊資源沒有關係國安局到底有沒有去查處 有還是沒有剛你說有 現在聽起來好像是國防部的事對 沒有 主管的全責在國防部這個我理解 國安局有沒有去查處"},{"start":3702.79,"end":3706.212,"text":"我們會建議由國防部統一所有的資訊來對委員好沒有關係但我今天的關鍵問題是什麼我們的滋通安全管理法第5條明明就有訂嘛"},{"start":3727.065,"end":3747.1,"text":"制定各機關對危害國家滲透安全產品限制使用原則那裡面第三點說主管機關因機於國家安全等等等等然後呢要去提供你們核定的產品清單那核定的產品清單現在在哪裡你瞭解嗎這應該要由國防部來發布相關的產品清單那個請一下陸委會的副主委好嗎"},{"start":3759.208,"end":3776.4,"text":"請副主委自動安全管理法它的主管機關叫行政院但我相信行政院自己不會做行政院一定是統合下面所有的部會把這個清單列出來來請教一下副主委目前這個清單在哪裡"},{"start":3777.935,"end":3804.868,"text":"自動安全的主管機關應該是數位部所以這個是由數位部來統籌沒有關係我到時候我會去問數位部但你們就看自動安全管理法它的主管機關寫的是誰寫的是行政院寫的是行政院所以我也呼籲一下行政院行政院那個清單到底在哪裡讓大家知道一下但除了這個清單以外下一個問題"},{"start":3805.948,"end":3810.271,"text":"滋通安全管理法我們違反了以後來請教一下國安局局長我們有滋通安全管理法嘛滋通安全管理法有授權嘛授權去訂行政命令去做這個清單那我現在問題來了明明不能用卻用了他的法律效果是什麼"},{"start":3828.462,"end":3850.599,"text":"對,他有兩部分,因為部分是委員現在在問的法律的效果那另外一個就是沒有關係,你先告訴我法律效果就好了他的法律效果是什麼?因為我看了半天我找不到我們有這個法,也授權主管機關去列禁止清單那現在抓到了,然後我就在找法律效果啊抓到以後又怎樣?抓到以後沒有法律效果啊"},{"start":3854.5,"end":3877.462,"text":"不要不要緊啊還是這個法律效果寫在什麼地方是我不清楚的來請局長對這是我剛剛在講的說這一部分法律效果以外還有第一個部分就是契約在契約的過程當中有沒有一些來我們來看你如果按照契約喔要去規範涉及到國家安全這麼嚴重的事情啊那這件事情本身就嚴重了我再說一次喔"},{"start":3878.542,"end":3903.925,"text":"涉及到國安威脅的事情如果我們在法律上是要透過契約去規範那這件事情是非常嚴重的事情怎麼會透過契約去處理有關於會涉及到國安威脅的事呢你違反了在法律上就應該要有法律效果結果搞了半天沒有法律效果沒有法律效果所以這些廠商沒藥沒金嘛"},{"start":3905.694,"end":3925.202,"text":"你訂你的規範你列你的清單我不要遵守又怎樣到時候被抓到了啊被抓到了就像我們國防部現在的態度一樣啊軟趴趴軟趴趴軟到快要跪下去啦被抓到怎麼辦拜託你把他換一換拜託你把他換一換"},{"start":3928.601,"end":3955.264,"text":"如果是這個樣子在面對有關於會對於國安造成極大威脅的中共滲透性產品的話這樣的管制啊是出現嚴重的問題啊竟然透過契約局長你贊不贊成我們尊重委員的意見這不是尊重我的意見啊你作為主管機關一個國防安全一個國家安全這麼嚴重的事情違反沒有法律效果"},{"start":3956.294,"end":3977.281,"text":"通過契約來規範這樣的規範模式 局長贊成嗎我想這部分可能還要行政院這邊再做相關進一步的評估行政院這邊還要再做評估啊沒有關係今天陸委會的主委也在旁邊了啦我相信副主委應該會把這個意見反映給行政院吧副主委把這個意見反映給行政院沒有問題吧可以齁好 謝謝"},{"start":3983.179,"end":3987.201,"text":"接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們請國安局陸委會文化部請國安局蔡局長陸委會副主委還有文化部政策謝謝"},{"start":4010.267,"end":4011.328,"text":"這個自由時報的盯梢案到目前已經第13天了"},{"start":4017.645,"end":4041.29,"text":"全國人民都在看當初登了這麼大一個版面到底是真是假是不是假新聞影響台灣人民對於事情的判斷我要先問一件事情先問一下我們國安局長好了那個沈博洋委員說有跟國安局通報是嗎他沒有說跟國安局通報他有啊他沒有說國安局那他是跟誰通報他是說國安單位國安單位是怎樣國安會"},{"start":4044.33,"end":4063.059,"text":"國安單位有哪一些?只有由沈委員去對外說明,他怎麼通報?沒有,所以你們國安局有沒有接到沈博洋委員的通報?國安局不會針對我們的情緒來源對外說明,這是法律規定因為他講說他有找你們嘛沒有講找我們他講國安單位,所以沒有找國安局"},{"start":4064.039,"end":4081.627,"text":"有沒有找國安局或給哪個單位應該由省委員來對外說明那就國安局來講我們的情緒來源不會對外說明所以你在我假設喔因為你說你不能對外說明嘛我假設你有接到這個陳情案件之後國安局對後續有沒有任何的處置跟處理或調查沒有辦法回答這個假設的問題但"},{"start":4083.409,"end":4095.82,"text":"所以沒有我問的是在這件事情被報導出來之前兩個月內這件事情被報導出來的兩個月內國安局有沒有針對所謂的丁燒案做過任何的調查我這樣問好這個問題我們在"},{"start":4098.783,"end":4125.888,"text":"上個禮拜的專報也有對外公開說明也就是說我們有接到相關的一個情報案什麼時候接到我們之前就有接到之前是多之前那這個我們沒有辦法來對外說明因為已經在偵辦了已經送到調查局立案在偵辦所以你們是在兩個月前就知道的嗎另外也因為有媒體人把這個案子已經提到了所以檢察官也在偵辦你不能什麼都推給檢察官嘛我問你的是如果你今天在兩個月前就知道了那為什麼五月的時候還可以讓趙柏離開台灣"},{"start":4128.969,"end":4149.046,"text":"你們是在趙博離開台灣之前知道掌握情報的還是在他離開以後?也就是我們在有相關的資訊因為國安局並沒有司法調查權我們要是有這樣的資訊必須要由司法機關去確認他到底有沒有相關違法的事實跟相關的事證所以你們了解這件事情沒有國安局接到資訊的時候是在趙博離開台灣以前還是離開台灣以後?"},{"start":4154.23,"end":4164.793,"text":"我們一開始接到就已經通報到相關調查局來進行偵辦那你還是沒有回答我的問題啊以前還是以後這差別很大欸對那這就有檢調單位來釐清有檢調單位所以你們就不死都不說就對了好沒關係下一位我們陸委會這一篇新聞裡面寫到的是說資深媒體人的報導請問你們已經去向還有文化部啦你們已經去向自由時報詢問資深媒體人是誰了嗎"},{"start":4182.506,"end":4188.214,"text":"有沒有向自由時報詢問他報導裡面所稱呼的資深媒體人是哪一位呢?"},{"start":4189.176,"end":4216.303,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部的主管主管的部分就是邀請單位然後和被邀請的新華社記者所以我這兩個單位我們都有問你都問了但是自由時報的部分我們是另外詢問另外詢問確實有詢問詢問那資深媒體人是哪一位他有告訴你嗎他們自由時報的表示是他們所報的新聞都有所本"},{"start":4217.335,"end":4235.146,"text":"而且經過合理的查證基於新聞倫理他不便透露消息來源所以即便跟國安相關的事情國安局長當我們的現在的陸委會的調查當我們現在陸委會的調查自由時報說我要保護我的新聞來源可是它是一個國安問題的時候我們也無法可管"},{"start":4235.526,"end":4248.616,"text":"不會 陸委會跟文化部進行的是行政調查那我剛剛跟委員檢調在進行的是司法調查好 那所以陸委會主委再回來副主委再回來所以他不告訴你資深媒體人是誰他只告訴你說有所本"},{"start":4249.424,"end":4271.568,"text":"他不會透露消息來源我想任何一個媒體大概都會這樣請問他指涉的新聞台來我們看一下現在有哪些新聞台他指涉的新聞台是哪一台就你們現在所了解的掌握已經13天囉不要告訴我這些新聞台裡面你們沒有掌握自由時報所影射的是哪一家我們當然知道哪一家"},{"start":4273.087,"end":4299.615,"text":"就是東森新聞台東森新聞台你們指控他們指控的是東森新聞台嗎不是他們指控啦他們的新聞所描述的是東森新聞台裡面有一名記者來自新華社叫做趙博會在他們的攝影棚裡面跟來賓說你要講什麼然後跟製作單位說你要講什麼他的意思是這樣就你們現在的掌握對吧是好來我們看一下"},{"start":4300.595,"end":4304.136,"text":"這個前面一張圖這是我去找到的東森攝影棚棚內就是長這樣FD副控室在這裡然後呢所有的包含是主播、節目製作跟來賓在這裡我個人上過這麼多次的東森節目包含被指控的那個我個人從來沒有看過所以我想要請問陸委會跟陸委會喔"},{"start":4323.361,"end":4338.557,"text":"現在他們自由時報所指控的趙柏他當時是站在哪裡你們有沒有去調查這個案情他是站在哪裡跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部所做的只能是行政調查對所以我們有向東森新聞台詢問過"},{"start":4341.521,"end":4355.918,"text":"他們給我的回答是記者在報導之前就有向他們查證但是他們在接受記者查證的時候就已經否認是 這我都知道啊但是我要問的是你們向自由時報"},{"start":4356.739,"end":4372.511,"text":"就陸委會跟文化部所做的行政調查只能夠...我知道但是你們有沒有問自由時報說他們所在這些內容裡面寫到的這個趙博所在的位置是在哪裡嗎他可能是在對不起我要走過來"},{"start":4373.171,"end":4384.781,"text":"他可能是在來賓這邊他可能是在主持人這邊他可能在場外這邊他可能在FD副控室這邊你們今天既然要做行政調查你們有沒有問過自由時報這個問題這跟資深媒體人是誰沒有關係唷我們只是想問這個趙博他在自由時報的指控當中他站在哪裡指揮"},{"start":4397.304,"end":4415.858,"text":"委員我想我們都很清楚媒體他不會去回答我們這樣的問題為什麼因為他這個他保護新聞來源所以沒有新聞來源的問題我們是問他所指控的他裡面寫得很清楚喔他說趙博啊他會去跟來賓啊說要去你看喔這裡講什麼對來賓名單此手畫腳此人也在棚內來我們看一下棚內"},{"start":4422.222,"end":4426.586,"text":"盆內就長這樣一個外面一個裡面哪一個是他們指涉的盆內這個難道我們的陸委會不能去問嗎?文化部不能去問嗎?這跟新聞的來源保護有什麼關係?他新聞裡面都寫成這樣了欸我想這個如果司法跟檢調如果有在調查的話我想他們會去釐清那你行政調查呢?你們不是在做行政調查嗎?"},{"start":4445.711,"end":4450.615,"text":"沒有問這個問題嗎?你自己上過這麼多節目的人你沒有問過這個問題嗎?你沒有想過這個問題嗎?行政調查的部分我們確實權限非常有限你沒有問他這個問題對不對?沒有問過那你有沒有考慮再問他這個問題?我現在直接問你你沒有考慮再去問一次自由時報你當初寫的報導所謂的在棚內是在這裡還是在這裡?"},{"start":4472.729,"end":4490.677,"text":"報告委員這個案件的細節我想這個已經超出行政調查的權限問這個也超出我們再看一下前面的報導我不能接受你的回答他這裡寫叫什麼此人在棚內然後呢逐一介紹來賓是否在找腳本走準備的CG有吳兆元來計畫跟來賓指手畫腳向來賓轉達希望講的角度來下一張"},{"start":4499.315,"end":4502.002,"text":"所以很簡單嘛 控制CG的在這裡嘛 對不對"},{"start":4503.771,"end":4513.235,"text":"來賓在這裡嘛對不對你有沒有問過他他當天新聞寫的報導這個所謂的大陸人我不管他是不是趙博他在哪裡出現的這難道不是行政調查可以問的問題嗎這哪有涉及到什麼司法跟檢調呢你都說你去問過他自身媒體人是誰你都說你知道他們懷疑的叫做東森新聞那為什麼東森新聞被懷疑的這個棚你沒有去問他這個趙博他站在哪裡"},{"start":4533.889,"end":4547.783,"text":"可不可以補問?這個部分我希望由司法單位來理解為什麼?你們在保護什麼?不不,這個已經超出我們的調查範圍超出在哪裡?超出在哪裡?你跟我說,超出在哪裡?我們就算問,他們也不會回答"},{"start":4549.906,"end":4575.815,"text":"你不能說因為你假設人家不會回答你就不問了啊你是做行政調查的人我可以假設對方不回答的問題我就不問他嗎就像你不是說你有問對方資深媒體人是誰但他不講嗎我今天問的問題很簡單你們忘記問也就算了你今天不問他這個問題到底你今天是要保護自由時報還是要保護所有大眾看到了那個新聞說要我們知道是真的新聞還是假的新聞"},{"start":4577.159,"end":4584.661,"text":"報告委員 您剛提示的這些是有關案件的細節不是細節 它自由時報 抱歉不是細節 它新聞就有寫了嘛它新聞自己寫得這麼清楚 然後你們還不問這就是很奇怪的一個疑點嘛這就是很奇怪的一件事到底在保護誰好 文化部"},{"start":4600.171,"end":4609.64,"text":"如果最後確定自由時報做假新聞﹖這已經是第13天了﹖你們政府有夠無能的﹖13天還調查不出這個報導是真的新聞還是假的新聞﹖請問如果最後確定是假新聞的話﹖如何處置跟委員說明第一個就是我們沒有辦法回答假設性這是真新聞還是假新聞我說如果是假的話"},{"start":4623.51,"end":4647.282,"text":"第二我們會針對如果這位記者真的做出了有危害國家安全的事情我們會撤銷他的記者證同時也會造成接下來新華社駐點的記者的申請我問的是如果自由時報報的是假新聞我們的文化部該如何處理剛剛完全沒有回答我的問題跟委員說明我們恐怕沒有辦法在這裡指涉任何一家的媒體報導的是假新聞"},{"start":4647.742,"end":4655.533,"text":"如果碰到任何一家媒體 不要講自由時報任何一家媒體做出假新聞的時候 文化部要做什麼處理"},{"start":4657.11,"end":4668.572,"text":"跟委員說明文化部並沒有管理媒體目前台灣的媒體是寫新聞自由的狀態所以NCC還至少會管一下所以報紙沒關係報紙可以造謠還是NCC可以管?NCC可以管這個嗎?媒體應該比您更在意他們的新聞是真是假是啊不是我告訴你喔是東森新聞很在意他們被抹紅喔寫假新聞的人可不在意啊我要問那請問NCC可以管這個嗎?"},{"start":4688.054,"end":4710.539,"text":"NCC來NCC來你可以管這個嗎假新聞的話委員好我們只針對廣電三法規管對嘛廣電三法文化部再回來我最後問你現在是我不講自由時報如果有任何一家報紙寫了很誇張的假新聞文化部怎麼辦相關的法律依據在哪裡要如何懲罰"},{"start":4712.21,"end":4740.327,"text":"還是跟委員說明目前台灣是屬言論自由的狀態所以他的新聞內容如果有傷害了譬如說傷害了國安就會依照國安的方式判斷所以要看他傷害的利益者是誰按照他所傷害的損害利益去進行追訴跟賠償那誰要負責追訴要怎麼追訴看當事人所侵害的利益是誰的利益就由誰來做利益所以文化部會罰錢"},{"start":4742.188,"end":4744.652,"text":"法則、相關的法律規定拿出來那誰是?那所以現在報紙寫了假設報紙寫了假假新聞有什麼法條可以讓他們負責?依據他所損害的利益來做權力的主張那一方"},{"start":4759.492,"end":4763.034,"text":"所以文化部沒有任何組織的辦法嗎?所以我們在這裡有任何的媒體主管機關嗎?都叫來這麼多人了,來如果有的話回答一下好不好?"},{"start":4783.12,"end":4812.012,"text":"沒有嘛所以這就是為什麼報紙開始揭曉是假新聞的原因嘛我的問題就問到這裡但是我要向所有的國人朋友呼籲一件事情NCC它至少針對內容它有在管制它有一個SOP不管我們認同不認同今天在報紙上面這麼明顯的調查不到的很多問題沒有問的寫了假新聞的在中華民國無法可管這就是我覺得最劣質最糟糕的情況謝謝"},{"start":4814.612,"end":4823.197,"text":"好,謝謝,這也是國會為什麼需要有調查權的原因了接下來,請黃仁委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請黃局長還有陸委會"},{"start":4842.234,"end":4857.629,"text":"請國安局蔡局長還有陸委會副主委黃委員長你好今天我們在延續習小新剛剛所提的大陸駐台記者盯梢台灣的政論的節目我請問一下陸委會是"},{"start":4864.335,"end":4887.484,"text":"找不到爆料者目前有沒有查到證據不排除可能有一些證據那請問一下國安局長陸委會不排除可能有一些證據是什麼意思那到底是有些證據還是沒有證據但現在硬要找證據那梁主委說沒有查到證據一下子又說不排除"},{"start":4888.985,"end":4911.295,"text":"有一些政績如果今天涉及到記者已經離台那副主委找不到爆料者國人被這一些自相矛盾邏輯的說法弄得迷迷糊糊也造成了這個執政黨現在在做的是故意要讓大家搞不清楚狀況"},{"start":4912.895,"end":4935.211,"text":"用政治操作讓國人相互猜疑製造社會的分裂這就是本席現在執行的中共不只對我們有認知作戰我看執政黨對我們內部認知作戰到底是什麼一回事現在都自相矛盾國人看得迷迷糊糊"},{"start":4937.405,"end":4963.06,"text":"報告委員這個陸委會跟文化部所能做的是行政調查所謂行政調查就是說我們現在是追溯性的然後去詢問相關當事人那這些相關當事人給我們的回答到目前為止我們所得到的就是東森新聞他是否認的新華社方面呢他也否認"},{"start":4963.939,"end":4987.315,"text":"那自由時報他說這個保護消息來源所以不方便透露那這個部分從行政調查的全責範圍來講我們只能夠做到這裡那接下來其他部分大概就要由司法跟國安去做所以我當然不能夠說行政調查沒有查到的東西就不存在"},{"start":4987.975,"end":4998.821,"text":"所以不排除可能有一些證據但是絕對不會製造證據從行政調查的角度來說是沒有證據行政調查是找不到證據這就是因為你把國人弄得糊糊塗塗的造成了很多的一些狀況"},{"start":5013.248,"end":5015.069,"text":"行政調查的部分我們已經基本上完成了"},{"start":5033.496,"end":5053.308,"text":"那完成了你們要做後續的一個報告嗎就跟國人交代一下就是說到底你們有沒有屬實找到這樣的一個作為我們會就行政調查的部分讓大家知道但是基本上就是我剛剛所報告的大概的內容就是這樣"},{"start":5054.67,"end":5068.531,"text":"認知作戰不要常常對著我們自己人我們認知作戰是我們是要共同對外以上這是我的本席所跟您報告的那另外就是有關於國安"},{"start":5070.62,"end":5089.386,"text":"關於大家國人關心的就是大靜滿88號業界的這個捕魚在7月2號晚上遭到大陸這個海警的扣留目前台灣有一個一名是台籍的這個台灣的船長"},{"start":5090.166,"end":5110.598,"text":"另外一名是台灣的船員有三名是外界的船員那請問一下國人關心的目前因為常常現在在海上常常發生了一個被扣留要不然是被來衝撞甚至日本查扣了我們的這個船員"},{"start":5111.431,"end":5137.664,"text":"等等但是你這個大禁滿的88號的遺傳目前你們有沒有跟對岸有正面性的來做一個交換意見那甚至如何把這些保障這些遺傳現在很多的家庭就已經是擔心我們國家執政黨有沒有這個能力處理"},{"start":5139.208,"end":5162.054,"text":"對,就委員提到這個個案來講那政府的立場應該行政院也有對外說明那一個部分是海上的這些海事活動我們漁民的海事活動只要合法的話政府會提供權力的一個協助跟保護那假如進入到比較敏感的水域的話可能我們的漁民也要注意一下當地國家的法令的規範現在可能會對,個案的部分局長,我現在跟你報告"},{"start":5163.143,"end":5187.825,"text":"現在可能會常常會有可能會發生但是現在造成了很多傳言的家庭除了他的收入已經造成了困難第二個現在他可能面臨面臨他的家人會失去他的家人那我們政府如何因應如果常常會發生這樣的事情要怎麼辦"},{"start":5188.766,"end":5195.447,"text":"那我們政府有沒有作為那讓我們的國人百姓有安定之心丸啊"},{"start":5198.012,"end":5222.759,"text":"這部分剛剛有跟委員說明了也就是說漁民的作業水域還是要注意一下漁市作業的安全特別是到敏感的水域那假如有進入到其他國家行政管轄的水域那更要注意到當地的法令規定那以這個案子來講因為涉及到對岸的福祉休餘期所以這部分可能我們以後要特別再提醒漁民要注意那至於個案的營救的部分我所知道的是陸委會跟海巡署都有跟相關的對口在積極的洽詢"},{"start":5224.859,"end":5235.045,"text":"過去有一個不成文的規定在兩岸過去裡面還會有一個良性的互動的時候不會那麼強硬的扣留傳言"},{"start":5236.602,"end":5263.895,"text":"原則上是一個警告沒有錯但是會隨時都會釋放出來把傳言能夠讓他安心的回台然後不要造成家庭的擔憂可是現在會常常會發生可是你們又無能的去處理如何跟兩岸之間做一個雙向的溝通安心的把傳言帶回來現在目前只是這件事情的發生"},{"start":5264.495,"end":5275.15,"text":"那下一次呢如果再發生的話那我們國人又怎麼樣的對我們的執政黨放心的交付給執政黨相信他們的作為呢"},{"start":5277.187,"end":5306.278,"text":"對,兩岸在發生這樣的一個漁事的問題以後然後雙方還是會有一些管道來進行一些現況的一個瞭解那這部分應該陸委會跟海巡署都已經有在接洽過程當中我希望你們處理得盡快給國內一個交代要不然現在人是惶惶那另外就是公廟攘紅又囤這個彈藥的問題我想請國安局在民進黨中國事務部今年的6月起刑"},{"start":5307.3,"end":5325.805,"text":"這個中國對台界限及統戰滲透的座談會也指出北京藉由馬祖宮廟、里長等地方統戰更確實達到影響民眾投票行為的界限效果那另外就是我們在簽訂但要"},{"start":5327.126,"end":5341.815,"text":"一屯點的自研協定．局長認為會不會有國安的餘力．因為國防部的後備指揮部．在日前發函給苗栗多間的公廟．那請問會不會有國安的餘力．"},{"start":5342.728,"end":5357.752,"text":"好想兩岸的宗教公廟的交流只要是合法的那我們都予以尊重那不過也要必須要提醒的是在交流過程當中中共還是會有一些政治上統戰的操作那這是我們要提醒我們國人的那另一部分是法律的部分"},{"start":5358.112,"end":5382.614,"text":"那假如在交流過程當中中共有刻意要運用我們的公廟的相關的網絡來進行借選或進行發展組織的話那這會違反我們的法律要件那這部分我也提醒在交流過程當中我們公廟要注意的那至於適不適合要在公廟來屯放一些彈藥那這部分可能由國防部業管單位來對外說明比較恰當不過你們這個要弄清楚現在公廟的人也是人心惶惶"},{"start":5383.769,"end":5406.942,"text":"因為現在大家都說臺灣的公廟都被中共滲透了那這些廟住住此不會不只會成為中共的滲透的這個突破點那恐怕也會在暫時成為第五縱隊啊結果我們的政府一邊懷疑公廟的一個忠誠度另外一邊又要公廟配合暫時的"},{"start":5408.302,"end":5430.841,"text":"純犯了帶藥,這難道不會是國安的風險?所以這個,局長,你們要化解這樣的一個餘力啊現在很多宮廟,你們簽訂了,又要懷疑它是不是又是抹紅,然後滲透什麼樣怎麼樣的一個狀況也造成他們對這個事情上,對我們國安不滿"},{"start":5436.805,"end":5454.315,"text":"正常合法的宗教交流我們都尊重這是我們一開始講的基本原則這也是我們民主國家的價值但是宗教自由也不應該變成是中共對台統戰滲透的護身符所以我們會拿捏好這個分寸謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":5455.91,"end":5478.107,"text":"這個是無證據的涉及我相信每一個百姓都是無涉及的涉及的被污蔑的我剛才在強調合法正常的交流我們都絕對尊重這部分沒有問題好 以上 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝黃委員謝謝局長下面我們請馬文君委員發言謝謝"},{"start":5486.103,"end":5492.126,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請關局蔡局長還有陸委會我們副主委好謝謝主席麻煩早謝謝局長還有副主委今天我們很多委員關切的問題大概都是目前也是國人非常關心的那因為上個禮拜突然就把整個會議"},{"start":5514.977,"end":5515.138,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5532.652,"end":5553.622,"text":"上週發生澎湖籍的漁船在金門海域被大陸海警船帶回大陸滯留的這樣的一個狀況因為接下來還有港服養的漁船其實也被日本抓走了可是很快的用罰款的方式就可以把它解決那現在澎湖籍的大金滿的這個部分"},{"start":5558.224,"end":5573.992,"text":"局長跟陸委會怎麼看或者要怎麼處理因為局長在接受第一時間接受採訪的時候是有提到說這是一個不尋常的案例然後又說中共可能藉由於事的扣押行政裁法來展現對台灣的管轄權"},{"start":5577.653,"end":5605.211,"text":"還有政府的立場等等其實在第一時間局長有這樣提到可是接下來跟日本的處置模式好像又不太一樣那對於行政管轄權也好或者他的休餘期也好這個過去每年都有所以在過去是沒有發生的狀況今年發生了我們就已經進到現在的階段我們國安局局長您有什麼樣的不同的看法嗎"},{"start":5605.951,"end":5629.946,"text":"對,而那天也是從兩個面向來跟媒體做說明第二部分是法律的面向那法律的面向因為有涉及到是不是我們的漁船有進入到中共的管轄水域那違反當地的法規而遭到打敗局長這個很明確,我想不要再把時間花在這裡第二部分是政治的面向,也就是委員現在正在關注的會不會這些個案背後反映的是中共希望來凸顯在台海地區的管轄權"},{"start":5630.706,"end":5644.363,"text":"然後來對我們的政府進行施壓那這部分也是我們正在觀察跟研判的因為他還要看這個個案以來這幾天中共在一些爭議訊息的操作還有微波效應的處理我們才能夠判斷他的政治意圖到底是什麼"},{"start":5645.034,"end":5650.115,"text":"因為我們從之前就是可能有撞船事件造成了兩個大陸漁民死亡的這個案件一直到3月份有一個士官釣魚不慎迷航到大陸到現在也還留置在那裡我們也一籌莫展又發生了這樣的漁船的事故事件然後被留置到現在我們也沒有辦法處理可是相對於像日本因為台灣"},{"start":5671.94,"end":5693.994,"text":"我們的所有的漁民他作業的場域其實都是有風險或者重疊爭議的海域非常多包括菲律賓之前廣大信號也曾經有船長被打死所以其實我們面臨的包括日本也是可是我們對於日本顯然我們好像都是他們說了算"},{"start":5695.135,"end":5708.299,"text":"對於大陸我們到現在目前為止我們現在還沒有辦法把我們的人不管是救回來也好或者讓他們平安的回來也好到現在好像所有事件我剛剛講的都還沒有辦法發生"},{"start":5711.02,"end":5717.063,"text":"對這些於事糾紛的處理我想政府的相關單位這不管是陸委會海巡署或外交部他們都會針對不同的國家相關的一個個案那個過去沒有發生現在為什麼發生我們在乎的是這個因為過去有默契我說每年他都有休餘期我們的這一海域或傳統作業漁場既然我們一開始我們很清楚的知道那是傳統的作業漁場表示我們一直都是這樣子在那裡生活的"},{"start":5737.714,"end":5740.457,"text":"所以對於漁民來說其實他們傷害是最大的他們現在無所適從他們只要一出門都有可能有風險可是國家沒有辦法保護他們這個才是國安單位其實要非常慎重考量的另外就是國安局對於陸方的轉變這個是賴總統就職以後的"},{"start":5756.993,"end":5773.686,"text":"兩國論述還是美國大選的蝴蝶效應還是中非南海衝突後的邊際效應還是中俄朝三方結盟以後東北亞局勢轉變再加上美軍逐漸轉移第一島鏈兵力到第二島鏈以後讓陸方有了底氣像這幾個理由"},{"start":5775.58,"end":5780.044,"text":"局長你有什麼看法?因為過去沒有這樣發生,現在發生了那這些剛剛說的這些理由有沒有可能是現在的變化,局勢的變化?對阿,剛我有提到一些總體地緣政治發展的動態這部分我們尊重,但是我們也確實有注意到"},{"start":5792.176,"end":5809.037,"text":"最近中共的海警單位不只是在台海地區在東海、南海動作也都非常的大包括萬頓級的海巡艦也是到日本海域去巡弋那另外一艘萬頓級海巡艦也才剛巡弋完南海地區所以現在國際社會對於中國在海事上的一個擴張的動作都非常的關注"},{"start":5810.406,"end":5827.15,"text":"國際的關注我們都很清楚我們在乎的是我們的人民還有我們的漁民因為我們一出去就回不來了到目前為止都是這樣所以這是國安單位應該要給的答案而不是告訴我們現在整個周邊的情勢跟國際局勢所以局長簡單說我們有什麼樣的一個分析的作為嗎"},{"start":5831.811,"end":5859.34,"text":"對,在這部分中共在海上的灰色地帶的操作確實最近的評次是有比較高我剛剛在乎的,我們在乎的是我們的人民還有漁民有沒有什麼樣盈利的作為有,這部分我們也會繼續的來在我們的行政管轄的海域來加強相關的巡查那保護我們漁民合法的海事的活動現在人呢人的部分,陸委會好像已經有積極在聯繫當中"},{"start":5862.946,"end":5874.47,"text":"報告委員,因為這件事情基本上是屬於中共現在宣布的休餘劑那過去為什麼不會?應該是這樣講,就是說要看他們對於海上執法的力道跟政策那現在力道變得很強,是為了什麼?"},{"start":5887.927,"end":5888.669,"text":"其實我們的漁業署"},{"start":5892.469,"end":5907.398,"text":"每年5月也會配合因為對方宣布休漁期所以我們也會漁業署也會叫漁民說要注意對方宣布休漁期那現在因為過去也有發生過去大概就是驅離現在是把船都拖走了我們現在是問那我們現在怎麼辦因為日本你可以跟他談然後人家說要賠多少我們就賠了可是現在對於陸方他們的"},{"start":5920.106,"end":5942.434,"text":"是不是有要求或者怎麼要求或者我們應該怎麼讓我們的漁民或者包括我們的國人之前那個士官甚至國防部都廣開方便讓他直接退伍了他已經不具軍人的身份可是我們現在可以怎麼樣讓他們回來平安的回來我覺得第一個我還是要呼籲一下就是說有跟他們談嗎"},{"start":5944.87,"end":5965.034,"text":"陸委會有跟他們談嗎?是有各種管道那現在的問題是這樣因為所謂的違反休餘劑的這個行為他在中共的法律裡面他是可以判到三年以下或者拘役或者罰金等等就是看他要用什麼樣的方法陸委會有跟他們談過了嗎?"},{"start":5971.815,"end":5994.051,"text":"我們有各種管道有談到現在他們怎麼說因為不要講法律就他們怎麼說現在都還沒有明確的消息沒有消息沒有明確的消息所以管道不管用還是應該是說我覺得可能他們也沒有很明確的決定那個軍人呢"},{"start":5995.457,"end":6007.623,"text":"就是現在不具軍人身份的那個士官3月份那位胡姓士官我們還是一再呼籲就是這是人道其實完全沒有理由扣押4個月是所以有什麼樣的做法"},{"start":6015.07,"end":6040.197,"text":"我們知道他怎麼樣因為包括陳玉珍委員他都跟家屬都過去探視照理說我們陸委會在過去不管海基會也好陸委會也好我們用非常多的管道而且是明確的正式的管道其實可以去談判我們現在對於不斷不斷不斷發生未來還是會有因為現在周邊的情勢更緊張了未來還是會有如果我們拿這些都一點辦法都沒有其實陸委會應該要"},{"start":6042.458,"end":6057,"text":"報告委員有管道是一回事但是對方要怎麼做又是另外一回事所以譬如說像大靜滿88這一艘船我們會有管道了解但是他要怎麼做另外一回事"},{"start":6057.581,"end":6063.507,"text":"事情發生的時候其實不但有管道而且是可以解決的現在沒有辦法解決這是政府的問題而且是所有部會的問題而不是人民的問題怎麼樣保護我們的漁民保護我們的人民怎麼樣跟不管你的對象是誰你都要有談判的能力你要解救他們的能力這個才是有為的政府"},{"start":6079.483,"end":6086.485,"text":"這是我們今天要說的因為到目前為止聽起來當然還沒有任何的做法所以因為時間的關係我想要再請教一個就是局長在2022年8月美國眾議院前議長培洛西他訪台的時候曾經引發解放軍圍台實彈軍演那也發生了總統府外交部國防部官網接連遭到中國大陸駭客癱瘓的這個"},{"start":6105.931,"end":6117.978,"text":"民間單位也有出現駭客攻擊．包括台鐵還有超商螢幕看板都被侵入的事情．這個應該還記憶猶新那如果像這樣子．包括世界經濟論壇在2024年他全球風險報告的時候．也把網路攻擊列為目前全球第五大風險．也認為這是在國家之間的灰色衝突的一個區域"},{"start":6130.046,"end":6146.951,"text":"那對於我們來說剛剛有很多委員提到我們用了很多的錄製的產品不管是國防部也好就是像無人機的國家隊啦還包括很多其他的資安的這些都用到錄製的產品那對於像這樣子的一個衝突跟影響或者它的危害我們現在還有什麼樣的做法比如說像學校您的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":6159.621,"end":6162.909,"text":"如果學校被害的話大專院校"},{"start":6163.632,"end":6188.062,"text":"有這樣的案例跟委員說明一下事實上在二合一選舉之前大概我們每天政府遭到侵害的次數有100萬次那選後大概都有250萬次之多所以確實侵害的頻次越來越多這是第一個發展的趨勢那第二個是他攻擊的對象也開始從政府到民間企業甚至到學校委員正在講的部分那這部分新的一個發展樣態我們政府都有一個通報跟應處的機制在"},{"start":6189.262,"end":6193.068,"text":"其實這個不是新的發展樣態啦這個在2019年的時候我們行政院其實有大概1.5億招標台灣學術網路系統優化的採購案這個本席在當時其實有提醒"},{"start":6205.024,"end":6212.168,"text":"我們教育部還有行政院其實應該要注意這個事情因為其實在現在所有的像教育部後來為了顧及台灣學術網路正常運作他只是邀集了行政院的相關學者或者治安處然後就說這個沒有無治安風險可是當你在做其他要求說不可以有錄製產品的時候我們在合約明明白白寫了很多可是就像剛剛有委員講的我們"},{"start":6232.939,"end":6251.234,"text":"根本就是只是叫他換掉或者甚至你間接的承認說這個沒有治安風險可是我們看到過去行政院他下令說公務機關不可以使用結果這個案子到最後法官是判他是勝訴的"},{"start":6252.93,"end":6256.713,"text":"因為對方有提告教育部有扣他的款結果法官是不這樣認為所以就資安的這個部分因為在維護資安需求政府要怎麼樣採一致的標準我想這個也是我們現在應該要講的因為過去都說在專家提出說現在駭客開始利用網路邊緣的裝置包括路由器防火牆或者"},{"start":6280.812,"end":6305.942,"text":"其實這些都是可以做供給的可是我們竟然把這些放掉了而且可能是因為比較大的公司因為遠傳接手了所以其實我們就把它放掉了不過資安的廠商他們有觀察發現台灣招網工的前五大產業台灣教育跟研究單位是居冠的而且是全球的兩倍"},{"start":6307.282,"end":6332.425,"text":"那這個最大的風險是什麼我們現在包括我們的國防部包括有我們很多的重要的一個研究案都是委託給很多的各大專院校那如果他們擔任顧問或承接研究案他駭客如果要攻擊因為政府部門的比較不容易他藉由這樣子的學術單位其實他同樣可以達到我們很多機敏的資料那這個部分國安局有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":6332.625,"end":6348.088,"text":"好,大概有兩個部分,一個部分是防範外來的對我們治安系統的侵害,這是傳統的作業重點。那另外一部分是委員正在提醒的,也就是供應鏈、自動訊設備的安全性的問題。那這部分變成是我們現在在治安防處上主要的一個具體的問題。"},{"start":6348.148,"end":6352.993,"text":"那這個案子請你請國安單位再持續追蹤好不好因為就這個部分它對於我們全國大專院校它上至台大、成大什麼所有的接受我們的研究案的全部的大專院校都在裡面而且全部都是使用他們的一些相關的臨附件"},{"start":6369.889,"end":6370.69,"text":"陳穎委員陳穎委員陳穎委員不在我們請羅美玲委員"},{"start":6406.256,"end":6410.74,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國安局蔡局長還有陸委會兩副主委好 陸委員早局長早 兩位早從我們這個國安單位的報告當中確實中國對台的這個滲透是可以說是五花八門"},{"start":6428.493,"end":6433.036,"text":"本期想跟兩位了解的就是說2022年中國發生了火箭軍的洩密事件之後中國就很積極的開始推動一些國安相關法規的這個修訂還有這個反間諜法那反間諜法跟這些國安的規定在去年跟今年"},{"start":6453.729,"end":6458.692,"text":"中國的執法人員在主觀認定,任何有損害國家安全與對的人,他就是觸犯了《反間諜法》。所以到底他的紅線在哪裡?國人一直想要問。"},{"start":6472.68,"end":6491.775,"text":"畢竟在中國畢竟還有很多的國人在那裡長期的這個定居或是說暑假也好或是工作也好到那裡去旅遊有沒有可能就因此觸犯了這個反間諜法我想請問國安局還有陸委會到底這些紅線在哪裡國人都很想了解"},{"start":6492.395,"end":6509.563,"text":"這大概包括幾個部分一個部分是中共確實為了加強對國內政治社會的一個控制那通過很多的國安法制那這些國安法制包括剛剛委員所提到的反間諜法還有保守國家秘密法以及相關配套的作業規定跟相關的解釋意見不斷的出台"},{"start":6510.003,"end":6531.205,"text":"那也造成了很多包括國際社會上對於到對岸來從事經商旅遊的風險警示不斷的在升高當中所以這是一個大的發展的態勢那第二部分可能在過程當中從去年到現在我們已經有15位的國人進入到對岸去之後遭到了拘禁還有審判"},{"start":6531.886,"end":6558.977,"text":"那另外有51位的國人在經過了陸港澳的海關的時候遭到了盤查詢問那我們也發現這個個案比例越來越高那主要問題回答委員的問題就在於說他的國安法制他的解釋的空間太模糊了那也讓第一線的查察人員有他自己的權限來進行每一個不同個案的解釋所以這是我們為什麼會對於陸委會提高對國人到對岸的一個旅遊警示的相關的一個"},{"start":6560.438,"end":6579.05,"text":"提高的那個警示的程度我們都尊重陸委會相關的一個安排那至於委員在提問的是國人該注意什麼那從我們剛剛跟委員報告樣態裡面大概有幾個部分要特別注意的那第一個部分是假如曾經有公開的批判中共相關的黨政或是相關的人權問題的話"},{"start":6580.511,"end":6607.15,"text":"這類人是在進出中國比較容易列為高風險的對象那第二個是曾經在高科技服務的那也曾經發生過有這樣的案例在進出海關的時候遭到了盤查跟詢問那第三個是有跟相關的一些公民組織或團體比較活躍的這些社團的人士在入境的時候也比較容易遭到盤查所以這大概是一些我們從去年以來所整理的樣態跟委員做個簡單的說明"},{"start":6608.371,"end":6633.946,"text":"那如果我說這個國人到中國去,在那之前,比如說他在網路上有搜尋的一些照片啊,地圖啊,或是有儲存的一些批評中國的這些文章,這些人有沒有可能出犯反間諜法?對,對,確實要,會,會,風險非常的大。這個,這個是會,就算是儲存,儲存喔,他沒有在批判,公開的批判,可是他儲存相關的這些文章,所以他都有可能嘛。"},{"start":6634.926,"end":6663.3,"text":"對 這在去年事實上7月1號的反間諜法公布之前我們到委員會來做專報也特別在提醒因為中共海關他現在確實會去查查我們的電子的設備那也會去看你以前的一些通訊的紀錄還有你的聯絡人交友的狀況那這些他在經過勾勒之後認定你是可能涉及到國安風險的話可能就會啟動他的相關的一個徵訊的作業那這部分也是我們要特別提醒注意的另外再補充一點是假如以前在台灣"},{"start":6664.04,"end":6686.648,"text":"據有公職或軍事或相關國安單位的退離職的人員復入的話﹐風險也非常非常地高。所以好像聽起來中國去不得啊?局長聽你這樣講,風險是去不得嗎?風險非常高。那再來因為我有請陸委會上來,副主委,對這部分你有沒有想要跟國人提醒的部分呢?"},{"start":6688.208,"end":6706.803,"text":"就是因為風險我們看到確實有提高的狀態所以我們才會把這個附入警示提升為橙色燈號那這個意思就是說我們意識到會有風險所以我們在警示國人要自己要去去的時候要特別注意"},{"start":6707.463,"end":6732.832,"text":"那我們也可能要特別提醒提醒國人因為我們現在也收到一些所謂在兩岸就是投資的一些科技公司大公司他們會來詢問我們說那如果他們派台幹台灣籍的幹部或是怎麼樣去那邊會有什麼需要注意的地方那我們都會跟他們提醒各種可能的樣態那"},{"start":6735.314,"end":6752.554,"text":"據我知道他很多公司他現在已經開始就是派臺灣籍幹部過去的時候都希望他們帶這個新的手機啊就是clean的手機以免在手機的部分被被查被人家這個看到看到很多很多資訊這樣子對"},{"start":6754.076,"end":6767.616,"text":"市主委像今年4月他們有公佈這個國家安全機關行政執法程序規定跟這個國家安全機關辦理刑事事件程序規定他裡面都有提到就是說執法人員他是可以查驗這電子設備那查驗這電子設備他是隨機就可以嗎"},{"start":6771.961,"end":6786.335,"text":"對因為他很多都是主觀認定因為他雖然雖然說就是有他們說我們的對象很明確他們雖然說對象很明確但是因為對我們外界的人來講對象其實是不知道他的對象到底是誰"},{"start":6787.276,"end":6808.07,"text":"所以我還是建議說去大陸特別是如果你要在那邊待的比較長期的話就是自己的電子設備不管是手機或是平板電腦或者是筆記型電腦這些最好還是用新的帶過去這樣會比較好一點"},{"start":6808.84,"end":6830.936,"text":"OK 好 謝謝那再來還有就是說中國呢近期還是接連發生了一些攻擊外國人的這個事件引起外界很大的這個疑慮像這個美國好像上個月吧看到那個上個月有兩起一個是有四位美國的學者呢被攻擊那再來還有就是這個"},{"start":6832.437,"end":6849.747,"text":"日本的一對母子也是被攻擊,類似這樣子的事件那會不會就是因為說中國他國內的一些仇美或仇日的一些言論造成這些事件的發生但我們比較擔心的就是像反台獨言論其實在中國這裡其實也是"},{"start":6852.208,"end":6854.73,"text":"國安局和陸委會針對這些疑慮﹖我們有沒有做了一些防範的工作﹖"},{"start":6867.099,"end":6872.503,"text":"有問題的影片或相關言論常常是散佈了很久之後才遭到下架那可是已經閱聽的群眾已經非常非常的多"},{"start":6896.321,"end":6896.742,"text":"我會做什麼樣的防範?"},{"start":6922.922,"end":6943.454,"text":"因為這麼多的國人在中國,我們也擔心他們的安全。對,我們還是要警示,就是有附路準備的話,可能還是要了解一下目前當地的一些樣態。那在當地的國人,我們還是會警示他,假如說在外的一些活動還是要注意到不要跟一些比較陌生的人有太多"},{"start":6944.835,"end":6947.796,"text":"陸委會是長期在呼籲國人要注意自己的安全但是因為我們這個國人在大陸確實人數非常多而且"},{"start":6972.261,"end":6989.489,"text":"許多人他覺得說自己已經在大陸已經很熟悉了所以應該是安全無虞但是我們也看到不少案例就是很熟悉很熟悉覺得自己安全無虞所以才出了事這樣子所以不管怎麼樣我覺得"},{"start":6992.872,"end":7005.386,"text":"對這個我們這個國人在大陸我們還是要呼籲那我們陸委會的網站裡面有各種公布各種樣態就是需要防範的樣態那也希望大家能夠參考謝謝"},{"start":7006.747,"end":7028.914,"text":"是,我是覺得副主委說的沒錯,國人常常想說,不會是我啊,對不對,就像那個間諜法也是一樣,他說我平常我也沒做什麼事情啊,不會輪到我,所以他就覺得OK,沒問題,對,實際上我們有發現,其實之前就發生過,旅行團裡面有團員莫名其妙被帶走的這個事情,所以國人還是不得不謹慎。OK,好,以上謝謝。"},{"start":7032.976,"end":7037.199,"text":"好,謝謝。接下來,請賴市保委員上台質詢。謝謝主席。有請國安局的蔡局長。請蔡局長。好,謝謝主席。賴委員好。你好。"},{"start":7061.618,"end":7074.188,"text":"我請教一下這個看到最近發生兩件的事情澎湖的漁民、漁船進去大陸被扣了然後基隆"},{"start":7075.637,"end":7081.443,"text":"這兩件事情是不是都是我們越界到他們的領海裡面,是不是?"},{"start":7093.417,"end":7116.57,"text":"對,就大概在第一個案例是對岸的這個案例,大禁板88號那它確實是在對岸的12海里內作業的時候就它在臨海?對,確實是那在日本呢?對,日本這個案例它主要是在我們暫定執法線以東大概1.5海里,不在我們的暫定執法線之內那這個暫定執法線是根據臺北以東算不算它的臨海?"},{"start":7117.35,"end":7146.263,"text":"不是臨海就是執法不是我們的執法範圍因為這是根據2013年所以他可以執法對根據他不在我們2013年台日漁業協定的我們的管轄範圍對所以造成他是在這個有時候你也沒有一條線有時候愚民就超過一點點阿不是台日關係很好嗎阿怎麼日本這麼兇把他扣了還要處罰一百二十幾萬然後再放船放人這東西對我們很不好吧"},{"start":7147.515,"end":7165.57,"text":"但還是要依照相關的作業的規定來處理所以日本的處罰你接受?不是接不接受問題這是由我們外事單位來跟日方協調之後所採取的所以這樣的結果你們滿意?我們尊重相關單位的處理的一個說一波台日關係好到哪裡去?大陸請問大陸要花多少錢?"},{"start":7169.704,"end":7169.864,"text":"會不會有刑法?"},{"start":7190.624,"end":7218.649,"text":"這個我們沒有辦法替中國的執法單位來回答但是按照他的國內法闖進來有沒有刑法的問題對,他有各種有有刑法的問題有各種的裁法的現在外界看到的是這個政府從蔡英文政府賴清德政府抗中有餘啊保台不足啊然後跟對岸一天到晚撞了結果我們的漁民權利都受損了"},{"start":7220.003,"end":7224.828,"text":"這些東西稍微便宜一點點 欸 喔 日本喊打喊殺 花了這麼多錢整個老百姓看了這個樣子就變成 然後呢 我們對日本一句話都不肯吭 看到日本跪下去 看到中華大陸 哇哇哇 很大聲 但是呢 大家看啦 這樣有資料你就跟老公準括照啊 欸 沒有"},{"start":7243.595,"end":7244.176,"text":"都是軟腳下實際上你聽我講話實際上我們的政府面對我們的漁民受到委屈"},{"start":7253.871,"end":7258.792,"text":"我們的基層的愚民受到委屈我們的表現到底亂講啥然後呢對大陸就大聲公要獲取政治利益對日本就跪下去點點到現在為止可憐啊可憐啊這個部分還是要看事發案子他的發生的海域狀況沒有要看海域的狀況這大陸就進入人家的靈海了"},{"start":7278.536,"end":7289.263,"text":"假如是在我們自己的執法水域,我們的海巡署一定會全力的賦予,但是假如是出了我們的執法水域的話,那當然就要透過外事的陸委會來進行相關的協商。阿你出一點點而已,日本那個一點點你可不可以再講一下,說台日關係這麼好,結果都說假的啊,對不對,原來公司還不是這回事啊。以照2013年台日漁業協定的規定來進行。是啊,你要根據這個,所以日本組織你完全同意啊。"},{"start":7301.51,"end":7303.193,"text":"各撥向外彎怎麼會這個樣子呢?好歹你也罵一下日本都不敢罵日本的點志氣喔啊啊罵大陸罵好大聲結果大陸越罵漁民越遭殃請入會會的兩位主委"},{"start":7316.225,"end":7329.557,"text":"這處理過程都沒有謾罵,都還是理性的在...都是謾罵,怎麼沒有呢?都判了一切,判了大陸就是你沒有謾罵,別人謾罵,綠營的人謾罵,這個不錯啊,看最近現在有笑容,前一陣子都沒有笑容啊,這個,來,梁國雄,鄭文燦算不算?鄭之中派算不算?"},{"start":7340.575,"end":7361.04,"text":"他對他對大陸的事情確實蠻了解他算不算海基位裡面的鴿派鴿派鷹派都是在政府的政府的這個政策方針之下做事所以我不覺得有什麼鴿派鷹派之分胡格來台灣是不是背後他牽線"},{"start":7363.004,"end":7390.923,"text":"不是這個不是虎哥來台這個是他們送寒箭到陸委會那陸委會這邊來核定的所以是你核定的其中之一就是你有簽字嗎應該是先到文化部文化部過來陸委會所以虎哥能夠來你有功勞我不會說是我的功勞虎哥來台灣對兩岸是好事吧"},{"start":7392.94,"end":7395.108,"text":"我們對正常的交流我們都歡迎"},{"start":7397.866,"end":7416.896,"text":"現在看起來整門串外面的解讀是被賴清德追殺這個看起來海基會大概來講本來就沒什麼功能老實講陸委會沒什麼功能你們一直強調賴清德講過一遍就有三天口口講口口講新兩國論口口講講到尾了結果是把人民"},{"start":7424.6,"end":7444.2,"text":"提起攏你知道嗎 撞撞撞兩岸大人吵架 受殃的是人民 漁民受殃我們的基層普羅大眾受殃 旅遊業受殃老百姓受殃 老百姓旅遊業都希望 生意能夠做得成 有生理好談 台灣人的願望沒有很大啦"},{"start":7445.809,"end":7446.21,"text":"從最近的總總看來"},{"start":7470.1,"end":7479.539,"text":"我們不斷的你說錄了半天他飛機愛過來就過來他船愛過來就過來他人愛過來就直接上了要淡水的碼頭"},{"start":7482.348,"end":7504.346,"text":"過去最少兩岸有一個默契兩岸互不承認主權互不否認治權我們中華民國的有效治理區域台澎金馬大陸是不否定的現在等於否定了他登船登我們的漁船上面去扣人扣船"},{"start":7505.367,"end":7511.883,"text":"很可怕請問你這個是不是大陸不承認我們的治權是不是已經發生了"},{"start":7513.167,"end":7542.072,"text":"這另外有一個面向要注意的是中國大陸在區域裡面不管是軍事或海上的灰色地帶擴張也越來越積極、越來越強烈所以不只委員剛所提到的台海地區東海、南海都有類似的狀況也包括燈檢或去毆打那個菲律賓的相關的官士兵所以這樣的整體的趨勢我們要列入安全環境的內部你沒回答問題啊我的問題是他有沒有現在已經否認中華民國的有效治理區域這個事情有沒有否認"},{"start":7542.612,"end":7548.623,"text":"那這個我沒有辦法替中華人民共和國政府來回答那這行為就是否認啊!那這行為就是否認啊!請問你這個行為是不是否認?你要大聲抗議啊!"},{"start":7554.682,"end":7556.483,"text":"其實第五中隊就是沒有暴露的間諜"},{"start":7584.497,"end":7585.238,"text":"媒體盯哨這件事情到底有沒有這回事?"},{"start":7613.115,"end":7614.515,"text":"接下來請林益君委員上台諮詢"},{"start":7638.888,"end":7640.809,"text":"那待會張祺凱委員質詢完畢,我們休息五分鐘主席好,請調查局局長請陳局長"},{"start":7676.523,"end":7700.628,"text":"主席好委員好局長好近年來中共對台灣的認知作戰的樣態還有手段和密度都大幅的提升企圖藉引導性的虛假的訊息企圖影響台灣人對國安的情勢的認知甚至企圖會迫害台灣內部的團結所以這也是調查局今年成立認知作戰研究中心的原因嗎是"},{"start":7702.288,"end":7725.579,"text":"那說到認知作戰的話本席就是有一個實際最近我們花蓮群組上面流傳的假消息的影片的案例近期我們花蓮很多LINE的群組上面突然就收到了一支影片這個影片描述了中共與我國的軍機如何在我們花蓮東部的附近的空域上面對峙最後國軍戰機遭到包圍後又驅趕"},{"start":7726.96,"end":7730.622,"text":"可是這個影片錯誤擺出顯示是中共認知作戰的虛假消息但是因為當天也正好有中共的軍機來騷擾所以我們地方服務處的同仁馬上就很緊張在問這是不是真的有這一回事呢還好我們就馬上請國會的辦公室同仁快點"},{"start":7744.868,"end":7747.17,"text":"協助查證後面發現這支影片其實是錯誤擺出包括發生的時間不對還有發生的地點有問題還有戰機編隊飛行的架數也不對就連配音大陸的口音的影片也對不起來因此我們立即就判斷這影片應該是虛假的訊息"},{"start":7764.366,"end":7766.008,"text":"可能是認知作戰的手法所以馬上動用所有的方法去澄清呼籲花蓮的鄉親不要再轉傳這個影片但是這樣真的讓我們覺得是蠻無助的因為這種假訊息出來的時候民眾沒有辦法去判斷"},{"start":7780.721,"end":7800.706,"text":"這個影片的真偽然後政府機關在澄清訊息上又常常漏網之魚所以我們常常只能用人工回傳訊息快點幫忙澄清那本席想要請教一下局長為了應對這種虛假的訊息調查局除了前端的學術的研究之外目前還有哪些手段可以讓民眾即時查證訊息的呢?"},{"start":7803.067,"end":7829.762,"text":"是,好,謝謝委員那個委員剛提到的這一則其實這一則是一個很舊的舊的假訊息那在今年又重新再把它拿出來去傳散那也謝謝委員在第一時間您的團隊就來協助來澄清那民眾如果接到這一類的訊息其實我們其實目前有很多的這個類似像市池茶餓中心、美育儀等等的這些"},{"start":7830.322,"end":7858.935,"text":"可以第一時間讓我們能夠初步的去了解看看這一則訊息是不是之前已經出現過的一個假的訊息然後這一則訊息在網路上普遍的回應的狀況是怎麼樣可以讓我們第一時間初步來判斷這個訊息的真偽那在調查局的部分我們其實認知戰研究中心目前也是在剛開始成立的一個初期我們慢慢的盡量希望能夠"},{"start":7860.543,"end":7879.458,"text":"點點滴滴的去堆積我們的實戰的經驗那目前除了我們對於認知訊息的研究以外我們也希望能夠在應處的部分能夠縮短那個時效能夠在最短時間內能夠確定這個是一個假的訊息然後發佈澄清的資訊給民眾那不過這種假訊息因為中國對台灣的這種認知戰"},{"start":7885.362,"end":7906.548,"text":"的攻擊作戰,其實是一個複合性的作戰,量其實非常非常的大,尤其在選舉的期間,這個非常非常的大,那我們其實希望能夠建構我們的國人基本上要有一個比較強的一個嗜毒的能力,這個是一個比較根本的一個有效"},{"start":7907.188,"end":7935.079,"text":"但是我除了看,除了LINE可以即時的查證因為這個真的會造成大家恐慌其實都需要政府等待政府的澄清就是說萬一政府沒有主動澄清那民眾不是都傻傻的被這些假訊息欺騙了而且大家甚至還會轉傳然後北市想要提醒一下局長剛才說的政府的主動澄清還有一些就是政府通常會去抓一些流量比較高的比較不實的訊息但是流量不高的那種密集發送的訊息就會變成了一個漏網之魚"},{"start":7936.96,"end":7942.902,"text":"可是如果民眾查核的時間查核的管道又不多的話民眾就會很難查核這個是真偽是真的還是假的呢這樣的話就會造成民眾的恐慌還有誤判像剛才我說的那個所以那個在我們花蓮群組上瘋傳不實的影片其實6月28就開始傳了但是事實上查核中心去三天之後7月1號才開始澄清這個訊息其實這個時候都已經我們花蓮人都已經快嚇死了"},{"start":7963.789,"end":7971.916,"text":"所以對於反制虛假的訊息的認知作戰我想說是不是有很多民眾都查證的手段比較有限所以就以LINE的訊息查證來說其實目前只能用訊息還有文字連結跟文字型的梗圖幾個方式影片就沒有辦法那請問調查局是不是可以回去研議看看要如何讓民眾可以透過上傳的影片來查證這種真偽然後而且有很多群組上流傳的虛假的影片大部分都是影片的形式"},{"start":7993.353,"end":7993.734,"text":"請副主委"},{"start":8025.928,"end":8040.695,"text":"副主委好賴清德總統在520就職演說上談到了中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬此外賴總統也是在7月1號中研院的晚宴中第五度提到這樣的說法"},{"start":8041.235,"end":8054.61,"text":"但同一天副主委你在接受廣播節目的時候你說除了憲法在其他法律制度我們一切的做法都是以對方當國家要叫兩岸或是中華民國或中華民國共和國都好實質上是兩個國家後來主持人也在總結的時候問到憲法兩岸實質兩國"},{"start":8060.256,"end":8065.241,"text":"然後那時候你也是同意的那我想要請教副主委一下你覺得你自己的說法有沒有超抑了賴總統的說法呢還是畢竟兩岸關係的用語是非常小心謹慎的而你自己又代表政府的政務官那你身為陸委會的副主委"},{"start":8077.333,"end":8106.568,"text":"本席希望你在國會殿堂上可能要說清楚不要讓台灣的民眾還是北京當局有誤會還有你認為兩岸互不隸屬與兩國互不隸屬有沒有什麼不同呢還有因為入委會是按照兩岸人民關係條例所設置的所以不過既然你是覺得兩岸實質是兩國這種話那請問是不是表示說如今你自己自己不是入委會首長官員的前提下你個人是贊成將入委會納入外交部呢"},{"start":8108.336,"end":8127.024,"text":"報告委員我那天是在上廣播節目所以就是等於算是很多算是用聊天的方式但是媒體媒體會去脈絡化的把我一句話給擷取出來所以我覺得這個有點不是很精確那我必須說那天是談到說"},{"start":8129.042,"end":8142.892,"text":"例如說臺灣跟大陸的關係例如說談到我們的健保資格的問題那我們的大法官相關的解釋也有很明確說就是健保只有這個有中華民國"},{"start":8144.353,"end":8161.1,"text":"國民身份的人才能夠享用那我們自己相關的健保法也是這樣的規定那所以大陸的人民是不能夠所以你覺得那天有沒有說錯了還是覺得是大家希望把你截取錯誤呢我覺得是有點去脈絡化去截取我的說法這樣子"},{"start":8161.479,"end":8182.258,"text":"好那我接下來再請問你一個問題就是說前天我們大紀滿88號漁船被中國海警船帶走海巡署在隔天已經有說明了這艘漁船是在大陸公告5到8月的時候海洋伏計休漁期跑到大陸臨海內去越界捕撈那請問一下副主委現在大陸那邊交涉由陸委會跟漁業署負責是嗎"},{"start":8186.929,"end":8191.32,"text":"請問什麼時候可以放人放船?他們家人都是非常的心急,大家都在等待。"},{"start":8192.389,"end":8213.817,"text":"我應該這樣講就是說因為他這個處罰的範圍其實是有點大根據他們自己的法律處罰的範圍是有點大他最嚴可以處罰到三年以下的有期徒刑但是最輕可以到放話我現在就問說什麼時候可以放人像你們現在溝通的情況是怎麼樣應該是說他們現在還沒決定"},{"start":8216.325,"end":8245.56,"text":"他們還沒決定所以那你現在判斷這次陸委會判斷這次大進滿88號漁船被帶走是只是對於我們的漁民簡單的漁船越界捕撈的事件還是有一些政治上面的意圖呢我覺得這個事情我會比較把它當成一個個案來看待那其實它也不是因為越界的關係因為在對岸的角度來講台灣的漁民沒有越界的問題"},{"start":8247.278,"end":8247.398,"text":"所以問題在這裡"},{"start":8268.57,"end":8285.687,"text":"所以我還是希望副主委你現在身為行政官員已經不是民意代表了希望你專責海峽兩岸事務的主管機關嘛往後你還是要稍微謹言順情對這種不要引起大家不必要的誤會而且國人就開始緊張起來了也很害怕兩岸是不是會戰爭是不是會打起來"},{"start":8288.169,"end":8295.751,"text":"還有希望陸委會能夠發揮最大的政治上面的智慧在不升高兩岸情勢下和平的對話的情況下盡早快點把我們的漁民帶回來因為我們從2月開始大陸漁船翻船到現在到大紀滿88號的事件其實這個都在反映兩岸既有的事物啊但是"},{"start":8307.654,"end":8309.235,"text":"接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在請鄭振淺、鄭振淺、鄭振淺委員不在請張其凱委員上台諮詢"},{"start":8352.182,"end":8358.287,"text":"請國安局長跟陸委會副主委請蔡局長、陸委會、梁副主委謝謝主席,張委員長請請教梁副主委你剛才說兩國論不夠精確,你注意說是兩岸嗎?到底精準一點,是兩國還是兩岸?"},{"start":8375.885,"end":8391.579,"text":"我們陸委會是依據臺灣地區人民與大陸地區人民關係條例所成立的所以嚴格來講就必須要講臺灣地區與大陸地區的關係但是因為我們習慣上 習慣上都是講兩岸所以你說回你本來講的兩國嗎 精準一點 比較精準"},{"start":8400.563,"end":8426.379,"text":"是兩岸關係?我們下次兩岸關係是不是?當然就是兩岸關係所以有收回你本來講的兩國我本來講的事情那個不是我講的那個是廣播節目主持人在詮釋我的話所以兩國不是你說的嗎?是主持人在詮釋今天非常明確的、精準的,現在是兩岸關係對,本來就是兩岸關係這是很精準的,今天定調了喔對,本來就是兩岸關係好,你先決定"},{"start":8430.922,"end":8449.089,"text":"我們剛剛副主委那個東西講話就精準了我們要問精準的事情這個自由時報說中國媒體盯上我們這個政論節目你現在查到什麼程度有一個特定的發展喔陸委會主委改口了"},{"start":8450.492,"end":8450.972,"text":"國安局沒有調查權"},{"start":8468.903,"end":8482.896,"text":"那我們有相關的情資那有針對相關的情資我們移送到調查局來懲罰所以目前你是有情資你沒辦法判斷是確有其事還是造謠對,我們沒有調查到目前沒辦法決定對不對交給調查局調查OK,好那你這個情資一定是有來源嘛"},{"start":8483.786,"end":8485.688,"text":"發生事情到目前為止已經兩個禮拜了"},{"start":8501.039,"end":8512.832,"text":"國安單位沒有清楚出來跟人民講到底這個事情嚴重性到什麼地方目前我們兩個很嚴重的嘛人民可能人心惶惶啊欸我做電視節目做16年欸發言有中國媒體給你腳本還頂長這大重的事電視的東森被你們影射的東森現在甩掉"},{"start":8522.672,"end":8533.698,"text":"東森電視台關鍵時刻跟劉寶傑你能不能比較明確你的源頭、你的來源是什麼?剛才沈博洋有說你要查你從源頭先查你沒有一個源頭,你源頭就沒有"},{"start":8535.222,"end":8563.267,"text":"你還能夠查,造成人民人心惶惶,國安是不是有問題?第二個,我們的媒體是被,已經被中國媒體控制了嗎?這兩點都出錯了耶假如有這樣的樣態的話,當然是一個重大的國安事件代表台灣的自由的媒體會遭到中共的一個相關的一個制約那有這樣的問題的話,我們一定會嚴加來查查所以我們在有第一時間有相關的資訊之後,我們就移送到調查局來偵辦因為國安局並沒有相關的行政調查權或司法調查權"},{"start":8564.867,"end":8581.456,"text":"所謂的事就是你剛才說的那個源頭那第三個我們沒有去影射我們沒有影射任何的媒體我們沒有影射任何的媒體沒有,是到目前為止到目前為止沒有說是東森沒有說是關鍵選擇國安局的系統沒有做這樣的一個評論從來沒有到現在為止都是特定你現在有沒有看了一個影射一個鏡"},{"start":8582.056,"end":8585.298,"text":"國家情報單位不會去泄露我們的情緒來源這是法律規定這是情報工作法第8條的規定至少一般民眾都知道一開始是哪個報紙登了"},{"start":8600.748,"end":8607.331,"text":"主管機關進行行政調查以及相關的檢調單位來釐清我沒有辦法替檢調單位來回答這個問題國安事件你講得這麼明確有的話確實是一個嚴重的問題第二個媒體的自由是不是受到侵犯你看東森水到這樣好不好"},{"start":8630.674,"end":8638.277,"text":"我請那個梁副主委我們來講講正經一點你剛才講講精準嘛你以前講我的節目我之前節目時你現在也來50個議席是我曾經給過你腳本嗎?不一定你有聽到嗎?所有台灣的精準節目怎麼會有腳本?阿你把這個當情資去辦"},{"start":8655.163,"end":8664.812,"text":"有這樣的情誌當然要辦,沒有辦是國安局失職你的情誌可能違反人民的常識啊沒有,進入調查,進入調查之後由檢調機關來還原人們沒有報的話是我失職,謝謝我現在跟你講的政論節目,台灣的政論節目是非常自由的沒有腳本這個事啦"},{"start":8678.991,"end":8684.372,"text":"所以假如有的話,我剛剛已經講了,假如有的話非常嚴重,既然有這樣的情資,我們就必須要移送司法調查所以你現在聽到的是有的嗎?有,有相關的情資,有相關的情資包括我們的政論節目"},{"start":8703.069,"end":8710.853,"text":"有腳本：然後有中國大陸媒體來聽場對 有相關情誌的主持人不這篇 第二這篇就得台灣現在有什麼人講這麼沒有常識的話違反做勝任節目的常識"},{"start":8714.446,"end":8732.03,"text":"對阿,所以才要調查阿,這是違議場的狀況,這確實是違議場的狀況,甚至有違法的可能我既然沒有調查權,我們就移送調查,釐清狀況所以不管有合理沒合理,有沒有違反常識,只要下來,國安局都去調查對,我們就請國安局很重要欸,國家安全欸,合理的東西"},{"start":8735.345,"end":8736.826,"text":"你這段時間這兩星期以來除了自由時報寫的那個源頭之外"},{"start":8756.737,"end":8777.422,"text":"臺灣已經有多少媒體跟你講這個違反政論節目製作的原則臺灣是一個民主有發展的社會我們媒體是很受尊重的我剛剛講為什麼沒有給腳本我們臺灣的媒體人、名嘴、政治評論員是非常受到尊重的你給他簽名去打我剛才是問梁文傑文傑來我的節目我叫他練一個東西"},{"start":8783.522,"end":8802.201,"text":"這不侵犯我們台灣的民主自由和法治嗎?世界沒有錯所以我說連這個常識你們都沒有關起就把它送去了你可以送那你先去查我這樣可以跟你講不會有腳本不會有丁賞這個事情因為這個對我們台灣的媒體是一個非常大的侮辱你現在講的事情是對台灣媒體非常大的侮辱讓檢調查清楚"},{"start":8804.84,"end":8830.807,"text":"我們尊重司法檢調調查的過程跟結果其他的評論我覺得還是應該留給社會公平你可以把自由時報當情誌去查我現在是提醒你這兩天以來所有的媒體在自由時報以外你看中時聯合或者網路媒體TVBS每個電視台像現在也七八十間嘛七八十間說沒有這個事情有一家說有七八十家都沒有"},{"start":8831.857,"end":8844.925,"text":"又牽扯到你國家安全又牽扯到我們新聞自由那你要去查之前你是不是要看這七八十間是怎麼說的你是怎麼一直去找自由時報啊想說你找自由時報我剛才說過自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係他們的報導我們沒有任何的局長你講這麼久你到底你意思有兩種喔你意思有兩種喔第一種你有另外的情資嗎"},{"start":8856.311,"end":8881.399,"text":"是阿,我們本來就是有另外情資阿,我們本來就有另外情資,我們一開始就講清楚,一開始就講清楚,我在上禮拜中報就講清楚了,我們一開始就有得到相關的情資,所以把情資送給檢調單位來立案偵辦,就是這麼清楚,自由時報的報導歸自由時報的報導,兩個沒有關係,謝謝委員﹖所以昨天在講的就情資,他的情資來源不是只有自由時報﹖上禮拜就講過了﹖是有其他的﹖是"},{"start":8882.439,"end":8907.664,"text":"上禮拜就講過了這不是指控這在描述整個過程跟經過跟文做說明那既然這麼嚴重又牽扯到就是當然我們必須要偵辦我們要偵辦對我們要移送偵辦那這儘快也要儘快給我們但我知道你們有步驟在做可是我剛剛一定要強調了人民已經因為這樣子有不安了所以第一個要快第二個同時你要給人民真相啊你等一下在地上我剛才說的用兩星期喔"},{"start":8909.245,"end":8910.906,"text":"我們來提醒希望盡快有結論謝謝 現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9361.584,"end":9369.647,"text":"我們開始開會。接下來請楊瓊英委員,楊瓊英,楊瓊英委員不在,請洪孟凱委員上台質詢。請蔡局長,還有王次長。"},{"start":9393.044,"end":9418.475,"text":"局長好,局長我想今天我們這個專案報告也是大家國人非常關心中共對台滲透作為那其中就是有講到是說平面媒體之前就先報導是說有新華社駐台記者盯哨的一事那我想請教一下到底現在因為連陸委會主委都說找不到爆料者那國安局又講是說情資調查已經在立案偵辦了"},{"start":9420.076,"end":9436.821,"text":"所以現在是立案偵辦?對,我們有這樣的資訊移交給調查局,調查局已經立案偵辦。好,什麼時候有的資訊?另外因為...什麼時候掌握的資訊?另外因為有媒體人提告這位記者,所以檢方也開始立案偵辦。對,那什麼時候掌握的資訊?資訊的部分我們一開始有的資訊...局長,什麼時候掌握的資訊?因為已經在偵辦過程當中,"},{"start":9440.544,"end":9452.705,"text":"什麼時候掌握資訊也不能講?對,我們不建議在這個地方來討論所以第一不能講什麼時候掌握資訊那本席只想問因為個案的部分我不牽涉,但是爆料者到底有沒有找到?"},{"start":9453.686,"end":9475.396,"text":"有沒有爆料者對,爆料者這跟國安局這部分是沒有關係的國安局部分有我們的情資來源那我們既然有這樣的情資就必須要移送到相關的單位來進行調查所以你們有情資但是這個情資不是從爆料者來所以跟平面媒體是不同的兩件事,這是兩件事情是,所以說平面媒體報導的跟你們掌握情資是不同的而不一樣的那什麼時候掌握情資不能講"},{"start":9475.936,"end":9503.349,"text":"對我們之前就有掌握到比平面媒體報導之前還是之後應該是稍早一點稍早一點對所以你們掌握了情資但是你們之前不講那你們做了什麼積極的作為除了說這調查以外如果說這樣的話那本席就不禁懷疑我們的一個安全的部分國安局自己說先掌握了情資但現在講是說他是這個調查當中不能公開但是又沒有提醒我們全國的民眾"},{"start":9504.349,"end":9520.755,"text":"直到平面媒體爆料之後原來才知道說我們的政論節目居然還會被人家盯哨那國安局之前比一個平面媒體還不如跟委員說明一下因為國安局並沒有司法調查權第一個我們不是業管機關也沒有行政調查權本身現在問的是說那你們什麼時候掌握情資並且你們做了什麼積極的作為還是就放任"},{"start":9527.737,"end":9529.118,"text":"請教現在這一個所謂新華社的駐台記者"},{"start":9551.567,"end":9574.105,"text":"那他現在人在哪邊他已經離境了離境了如果是報導的這一位的話他已經離境了那這一位到底跟我們國安局這邊掌握的是不是同一位我不清楚國安局掌握的是什麼好那請教一下你們現在他的記者證是文化部這邊發的嗎是他什麼時候發什麼時候入台的他是我看一下"},{"start":9578.836,"end":9591.168,"text":"二月二十三號因為他是三個月離境所以說他照理講他應該是五月二十三離境三二三、四二三、五二三嗎對,三個月所以說他是什麼時候離境的五二三他就是五二三當天嗎"},{"start":9593.614,"end":9617.089,"text":"我們目前的資訊是這樣是5月23號離境他就523當天離境所以說他就在他三個月的記者證有效期滿的時候來離境所以我們這邊也沒有再去跟他調查說他到底有沒有過去這些行為有沒有辦法調查因為之前在教育文化委員會的時候我們請教文化部部長他也講是說他要先做這個所謂的行政調查那就現在勒"},{"start":9617.762,"end":9626.556,"text":"跟委員說明在離境之前我們並沒有掌握這個訊息所以在離境之前我們並沒有詢問他本人不過在這一件事情經過媒體披露之後"},{"start":9630.376,"end":9655.421,"text":"他有沒有從事我們文化部發給他記者證以外的事情我們經過媒體披露之後我們有請兩個單位來做詢問哪兩個單位第一個是邀請單位因為媒體進來都會有一位邀請單位也是另外一個媒體那另外就是新華社本社還有在台的駐台記者因為這位記者雖然離開了但是還有其他的記者來那在目前為止的詢問當中這兩位大概都是否認的狀況都是否認是因為"},{"start":9658.161,"end":9676.932,"text":"上個禮拜本席在教育文化委員會詢問的時候然後有講到是說這個禮拜要公佈嘛對不對所以你們是今天就講了還是說你們會有更詳細的這個調查報告應該是這樣我們因為在做行政調查所以呢我們會跟委會把所有行政調查結果總和以來以後一起對外一起對外什麼時候會對外"},{"start":9678.158,"end":9695.204,"text":"目前還沒有清楚的日程,不過我們的報告已經在處理當中所以你們已經報告出來了嘛,對不對?你剛剛已經講了,是否認但是本席現在要說,這一件事情國人那麼的關心但是我們的行政機關的這個動作,會不會也太慢了?最後我再請教一下國安局局長來,我們請國安局局長"},{"start":9700.236,"end":9716.137,"text":"局長現在國安人士說盤點五個樣態來示警說可能透過參香、拜拜、聯合祭拜、假學術之名的方式來做這樣子的一個收集個資或者是說監控所以說我們附中會有這個違法徵訊的風險是這樣嗎?"},{"start":9719.672,"end":9739.265,"text":"對,就講兩岸的正常合法交流我們都尊重了那要特別注意的是所以現在台灣進兩岸觀光那下一步是不是要宗教交流、學術交流、文化交流、地方交流也要進行?政府目前沒有做這樣的宣示但是你們現在講是說這一些學術交流、宗教交流也都有可能"},{"start":9741.147,"end":9753.64,"text":"我剛剛第一個部分跟人說明的是只要是合法的正常的這都尊重沒有問題現在主要是針對交流過程當中假如有違常的或違法的狀況那我們要來特別注意要把它分清楚"},{"start":9754.981,"end":9774.858,"text":"沒有錯啊當然國人都知道是說這些交流學術交流、宗教交流、文化交流這都是屬於正常的範圍之內啊所以說也才會做這樣的申請啊但是我們國安現在的一個市井就說這一些交流也都可能被滲透啊所以你們到底講等於沒講嗎?你們講等於沒講等於是你們到底你們界線在哪邊?"},{"start":9775.879,"end":9791.526,"text":"你們的樣態在哪邊你今天的示警是講是說都要小心但是講得也沒講因為除非你跟我們講說未來宗教交流、學術交流、文化交流也不能做否則的話你現在到底是要希望兩岸能夠有多一點交流還是說不要交流"},{"start":9792.27,"end":9794.472,"text":"淡水河口本席的選區那之前這個快艇闖入河口快一個月了"},{"start":9817.307,"end":9838.181,"text":"那請教我們現在查明的狀況怎麼樣?有沒有懲處?對,因為這部分應該是事檢正在偵辦當中,我們尊重那個檢方的辦案。那我們有沒有相關行政機關的懲處?懲處我記得在第一時間海巡署就有對外進行一些懲處。所以國安單位這邊掌握就是海巡署懲處就夠了嗎?對對,主要是海巡署針對整個過程當中有失職的部分來做檢討跟懲處。"},{"start":9839.702,"end":9841.043,"text":"主席麻煩請NCC陸委會跟文化部"},{"start":9869.628,"end":9873.071,"text":"請NCC、陸委會、還有文化部就備選台。謝謝"},{"start":9877.55,"end":9901.763,"text":"好 謝謝 我也是想要針對中共到底有沒有介入我們這輪節目的意思來跟各位請教我們先來問一下行政調查部分因為我看了大家的報告感覺行政調查是調查不出來的我先確定這件事情NCC是說已經在6月25號發行給中華民國廣電工會還有一些相關工會叫工會來回應會員的行為那工會是說不了解 是這樣嗎"},{"start":9903.23,"end":9927.67,"text":"跟委員報告NCC對那個廣播內容的監理都是事後監理就到現在為止沒有人來檢舉所以NCC還會不會有更積極的動作就NCC而言跟委員報告我就講的就是我們都是事後監理所以你們就不會再有動作嗎我們是事後監理沒有沒有你就回答我問題沒有任何人來檢舉沒有任何的具體的證據NCC對於我們的國安是這麼的消極"},{"start":9930.572,"end":9956.677,"text":"那文化部 我想請確認一下文化部也是一樣發函嘛 對不對發給邀請單位跟新華社我們有約他們來談那談了嗎有約談 已經談了然後有調查出相關的我們把所有的目前為止因為行政調查基本上就是文書提供跟約談所以我們把這個相關的內容中正以後大概接下來就交給檢調看後續是不是有需要進行調查所以應該也 他們也沒有說他們有這個行為嘛 對不對對 目前為止行政調查的結果就是沒有嗎是否認是否認好 那請問一下那個陸委會"},{"start":9960.398,"end":9987.275,"text":"衛會是說因為找不到資深媒體人嗎?所以應該也不會再查了不是找不到資深媒體人而是我們有詢問報導的媒體自由時報有詢問過然後他們說他們的報導皆有所本而且經過合理的查證但是基於新聞倫理不能提供不能提供消息所以就不會也不會再查了嗎?對不對?好那所以那我想請教一下就是說所以舊陸委會NCC文化部的立場"},{"start":9988.115,"end":10003.649,"text":"這件事情是不是已經了結了應該說行政調查的全責範圍已經結束了嘛所以接下來就是看司法沒有錯是看司法跟國安那我請問一下國安單位國安局好不好請問一下國安局"},{"start":10012.064,"end":10024.244,"text":"我要講問一下局長因為這件事情當時別的媒體爆發出來的時候全台灣大家都震動了包括民進黨黨團也當天就開記者會就是痛罵這件事情還把藍白扯進來"},{"start":10025.599,"end":10044.63,"text":"所以這個是應該是真的但我剛剛這樣問一輪下來感覺好像NCC文化部跟陸委會也沒有把這件事情很當一回事就是說如果很積極的話這國安行為這麼嚴重滲透台灣太可怕了我們現在看政論節目都不知道說他到底是有沒有被滲透這麼嚴重的事情但我剛剛這樣問一輪我好像感覺沒有很嚴重"},{"start":10046.491,"end":10070.36,"text":"所以國安局現在態度如果說我請教一下如果入委會這邊有問自由時報然後自由時報不願意把他的消息來源提供出來那我們可不可以根據任何的國安因素請自由時報提供他的消息來源有可能嗎?沒有沒有因為國安局並沒有行政調查權也沒有司法調查權所以我們才會把案子移交到調查局來進行偵辦所以現在是要調查局來偵辦"},{"start":10073.561,"end":10078.645,"text":"今天調查局也有來嗎?有我可以請教一下那個調查局是局長對不對?局長我想問一下就是說今天因為是自由時報是有消息來源嘛就是資深媒體人他有相當的情資嘛自由的報導就是自由報導報導的那個資深媒體人有這個情資所以跟自由時報講了"},{"start":10098.496,"end":10114.623,"text":"那理論上來講 假設啦 我說假設這件事情是真的那很嚴重嘛這是一個很大的國安問題嘛那但是現在自由時報基於新聞倫理啊他不願意提供這個資深媒體人的姓名然後也沒有辦法提供消息來源那就調查局的立場"},{"start":10115.763,"end":10132.931,"text":"國安在這個事件上面基於國安是能不能邀請那個要求那個自由時報把這個效益來源提供出來我不知道就國安的角度來講的話是當然這個問題對調查局來講的話是一個很重大的一個國安問題那所以在媒體披露的第一時間我們就立案來調查"},{"start":10134.372,"end":10153.586,"text":"那並且在台灣高等檢察署也已經立案了已經有指派檢察官在指揮偵辦那相關各方的資訊來源我們都收集到了包括國安局還有相關今天到場的各個行政機關他們初步的行政調查所以自由時報那個資訊媒體有掌握了"},{"start":10154.206,"end":10176.635,"text":"這個我現在沒有辦法在這邊跟您報告說有或沒有因為偵查不公開的關係因為我們想要了解說這會不會破案的一天因為這件事情大家那麼關注會不會就這樣不了了之我們當然很希望就是說這些資訊全部進來了以後我們跟檢察官研究有一個很明確的一個調查的方向然後逐步來去建構一個事實但是這個結論我們沒有辦法在今天說事後"},{"start":10181.297,"end":10181.317,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":10211.446,"end":10235.82,"text":"接下來,請王定宇召委上台質詢。謝謝主席。麻煩國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委。國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委。"},{"start":10237.601,"end":10245.612,"text":"請就位巡台謝謝委員長 局長我們早上聽了一下大概對於中國滲透台灣媒體"},{"start":10248.757,"end":10273.516,"text":"陳經緯看媒體報導有幾個樣態你看一下我們這邊看這幾個樣態就你的業務來瞭解不管是國安局或調查局這些樣態是存在的嗎對先跟我說明一下媒體報導這五個樣態並不是由國安局來提供當然不是你們整理的但是我們的案例當中也確實有看到幾個樣態所呈現出來的你們整理的樣態有沒有比這更多可能會再稍微多一點有沒有包括送手機"},{"start":10275.131,"end":10302.567,"text":"也有注意到委員在講的這件事情對很特別突然間有一天有一群人通通拿一樣的那個是什麼華為的手機對不對都一樣的喔而且都在那個區間裡面這樣態我倒覺得媒體有媒體報導的角度我們尊重媒體跟他的消息來源但作為國家的情報主管機關你可能要整理一下你們的樣態作為也許媒體人或者評論員他不曉得這個人想要利用他"},{"start":10303.467,"end":10318.502,"text":"可是透過你們樣態的揭露,他會提高警覺說,誒,這個要上我東西,怪怪的喔,你懂我意思嗎?不叫而殺為之虐嘛,所以這些東西我是建議國安局或調查局應該把樣態整理起來。就這幾個樣態,剛才聽起來是,局長你很負責任說,有關中國駐台人員"},{"start":10326.713,"end":10343.098,"text":"對媒體下指導旗或政論節目你是有這樣的情資有這樣的情資你這樣情資那你接下來是要移送給很多人誤以為國安局是調查單位不是,國安局是情資收集單位你有這個情資之後你下一手應該是給調查局了吧是所以我請調查局長"},{"start":10345.728,"end":10360.051,"text":"委員好局長是你有從國安局得到這樣的情資嘛是因為按照業務上他應該要給你嘛是你們查到現在這些情資的真偽有沒有確認我們目前還還正在調查的階段"},{"start":10361.155,"end":10375.582,"text":"我剛才聽到情資你們有自己的來源未必是媒體報導然後情資有很多單位包含國安局有提供給你們那你們也在整理當中如果有涉及違法你們可能就移送嘛那現在比較麻煩的是"},{"start":10376.562,"end":10399.055,"text":"事實上中國對台灣很多的樣態我們台灣的國安法律比韓國還要鬆韓國如果有人替北朝鮮在韓國宣揚的話我上次看到一個被判了10多年可是我們台灣是把政治任務有來到台灣統戰、宣揚中共的政治主張"},{"start":10399.895,"end":10424.822,"text":"我們台灣相當程度都把他認為是言論自由然後一旦他跨過那條線付錢了交付命令了發展組織了我們才有國安無法去處理他嘛沒有錯嘛所以本席要問你一個嚴肅問題你現在國安局給你的情資你們也在彙整也在查證當中未來如果有涉及不法當然我們就會看到移送的動作這個未來會不會等很久"},{"start":10425.662,"end":10454.044,"text":"我們盡快我們只能說盡快那個蔡局長要補充補充一下因為也有國內的媒體人已經跟這個新華社記者提告了所以檢方也已經立案在偵辦有一個有媒體人提告檢方要查要辦除了問他提告的內容檢察官一定會問檢調嘛所以現在那個台高檢署台高檢署現在在指揮偵辦所以高檢署有指揮你們在辦這個案件有有有所以高檢署有跟你們調這些資料了"},{"start":10455.605,"end":10479.355,"text":"我該問的第一個層次問題是如果有違法當然就會有起訴的動作違法當然就是我們會移送可是我們常常在英文叫cooking常常在辦這些案子的時候都會經過相當長的時間有些國安案件為了要查他的罵髒話他整個組織脈絡有多大有時候會等了三年五年都有這個案子你覺得會等很久嗎"},{"start":10480.371,"end":10502.797,"text":"我們是希望能夠盡快釐清整個事實但是即便是釐清了整個的狀況的話可能就是說在法制面我們可能還是要去研究剛剛委員剛剛提到的就是說統戰的行為跟我們目前的國安無法甚至像反滲透法法是不是有不足的處法是不是有不足的地方對不對調查局長我剛才問的你現在提到的就是我要講第二層次問題第一個"},{"start":10505.794,"end":10525.701,"text":"我認為偵辦案件不能去逼你何時何月要出來案子不是這樣辦的但我們都希望盡快如果有違法當然就依法起訴我現在講的第二個樣態比較麻煩是台灣現在有一個狀況陸委會可能要了解一下國安局要了解一下文化部可能要了解大家都要了解一下可是我們現在法律沒有規範它你知道嗎"},{"start":10526.641,"end":10544.551,"text":"明明知道他在進行政治滲透政治統戰查起來也確有其事可能有個人在指導某個節目或某個人在監督媒體可是有沒有到法那個層次我內心是有個問號本席這邊建議你看可不可行這件事情釐清之後"},{"start":10546.141,"end":10570.825,"text":"作為國家調查局卻有歧視縱使未達移送法辦的程度你們也應該要有一個報告出來讓民眾有個識讀我剛才看不分朝野連國民黨的立委都要求趕快交代我覺得好事如果有這個事情縱使未達違法移送的標準但是確實有這樣的事情我們現在立法院不分黨派的委員都在關注這個事情"},{"start":10572.284,"end":10589.026,"text":"將來如果不能移送但確實有盯梢有這樣情形你們願不願意把人事實地務清除有一份報告出來這個部分我想因為有檢察官在指揮偵辦那今天委員的這個建議我們會跟檢察官去反映就是說最後的調查結果有台高檢署他們那邊"},{"start":10590.327,"end":10607.781,"text":"起訴就是起訴書,不起訴書常常寫得不明不白,這件事情縱使不起訴也要寫得清清楚楚有時候不起訴是因為沒到達法律要件,不代表沒這件事情,懂我意思嗎?所以這件事情可能高檢不起訴書也要把它寫清楚,會不會起訴我不知道嘛"},{"start":10608.482,"end":10629.255,"text":"沒有看到證據好 剛才講到法律有沒有未盡之處希望法務部調查局或者是國安局統合一下有一些樣態行為在韓國列為違法甚至有的判很重而我們台灣被威脅的情形是比它還要嚴重我們卻把它用言論自由的方式去寬鬆對待"},{"start":10630.996,"end":10655.141,"text":"我不是反對言論自由我們該不會檢討一下他擺明了就要來統戰你擺明了就要執行中共的政策然後我們也好像莫可奈何掌握一堆情資卻無可奈何人民對這個是不耐的所以是不是請國安局跟調查局整合一下我們法律是不是應該有精進修改的地方那我們立法委員應該也要做這樣的事情我不知道兩位局長有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":10656.61,"end":10684.296,"text":"事實上委員講得沒有錯過去這兩年包括美國、英國、德國、荷蘭、日本、韓國跟澳洲都修改他們的國安法制那這部分我們會再積極來收集相關修法的方向來看國內的樣態做個結合跟評估怎麼樣來精進我們相關修法的必要性提出一些修法建議嘛像之前我們國安無法進黨都會有法務司法單位認為可行的方式大家一起來研擬修法我覺得這個洞要把它補起來接下來你看"},{"start":10685.896,"end":10704.644,"text":"中國有沒有媒體自由我想這個是社會常識中國的媒體接駐的條文就是要為中國共產黨服務他們是要為黨服務才叫媒體不為黨服務叫犯人就抓去關了嘛所以中國沒有媒體自由這個事情所以中國駐台的媒體去執行不管中宣部"},{"start":10705.484,"end":10720.009,"text":"或者是中共相關單位的命令對他們來講是理所當然依法有據所以他們的媒體是要執行他們中共的意旨的所以在台灣有7加10名的媒體駐點在台灣如果我們再加上一些他們在外面投資的其實不只這個數量"},{"start":10722.02,"end":10744.733,"text":"涉及違法影響台灣公共利益當然就要偵辦我這個問題是請問一下現在有沒有已經違法損害台灣公共利益的中國媒體有沒有這樣的案子在偵辦中內容我不問有沒有因為依照勤工法的規定對岸的民眾來台灣進行交流包括媒體的採訪假如有違反他申請來台的目的的話違反目的是行政我現在講法律"},{"start":10745.894,"end":10765.791,"text":"我的意思是說只要他有違反他在台灣註點採播的一些來台的目的的話我們國安單位本來就有專案在注意這個問題因為他違反他來台目的有時候就請他出去嘛那我的意思是說違法而且損害台灣公共利益法就有一個法條在那裡嘛我們目前有違法樣態那個違反來台目的我們待會再講"},{"start":10766.491,"end":10791.881,"text":"有沒有違法的樣子有我們在注收這樣的狀況我尊重你們偵辦偵查不公開然後第二個但如果他還沒到違法他只是違反來台目的或者在執行相關策略我們現在用的是取我剛才聽文化部副部長次長是說會取消他的記者證那他背後所代表的媒體或組織難道不用被處分嗎"},{"start":10794.943,"end":10818.473,"text":"處分的部分請葉管來說梁副主委我們現在是針對這個媒體違規可是你知道我認為中國派來駐台的人我認為他們無辜啊他們依他們中共的法律是要服務他們中共的所以他來這邊做任何事情哪有自由意志所以我只取消他的記者證禁止他再來台灣其實我沒有解決問題他背後代表的那個力量新華社啊人民日報啊等等"},{"start":10819.491,"end":10842.558,"text":"有沒有進一步去取消他們派人駐點的資格的機制應該說要看是他個人的行為還是我們判斷他是整個機構的行為中國的記者在談會的行為那過去曾經有例子就是東南衛視在台灣說是要來採訪但是實際上是在自播政論節目在做節目那所以我們後來不但把東南衛視的記者請走"},{"start":10844.258,"end":10863.327,"text":"到目前為止東南衛視他所要申請的申請來台的記者大概目前都還沒有允許過所以是有前例的我剛才提的就是這個例子就是說那個記者只不過是爪牙拔了爪牙可以派另外一個爪牙來背後的那個組織"},{"start":10864.96,"end":10891.696,"text":"我們現在研擬法律以外對這樣的組織應該有一些處罰機制是,因為在台灣自播政論節目它不可能是記者個人的行為好,前一頁我最後一分鐘現在從中國去年7月要執行反間諜法之後其他反間諜法啦什麼國家機密什麼什麼保護啦等等它有好多法啦它這些法都有一個共同的特色定義很模糊授權非常寬"},{"start":10892.737,"end":10921.349,"text":"公安部、國安部、大大小小官想怎麼幹就怎麼幹他說你違法就違法他在你的手機拿到一個香港加油搞不好就可以把你抓起來大概是這個樣態所以根據目前統計7月1號去年2023年到今年的6月30號一年的時間有42件47人然後被留置詢問拒絕進去的有6件6人我倒覺得被拒絕入境的人是有福氣的他讓你進去再抓起來的你還不知道怎麼辦"},{"start":10922.745,"end":10927.24,"text":"就國安局或相關單位的研究有沒有針對特定的群體"},{"start":10928.004,"end":10952.1,"text":"有,我們剛剛也跟秦浩偉有說明過,第一個,假如說你在到對岸的過程當中,你有些特殊的身份的話,會被列為高風險的族群。比方說,曾經在政府部門服務過,特別是我們的國安系統或軍警部門,那另外是曾經在參與一些相關的公民的團體的活動,那可能有涉及到對中國自由民主人權的批判,這也是列為高風險族群。"},{"start":10952.861,"end":10976.758,"text":"再來是曾經在高科技產業那有涉及到高科技機敏機敏科技對機敏科技的也會被劉志來詢問國安局跟陸委會跟交通部一定要把這種警告把它具體化類似旅遊警告讓他知道去會有風險像你剛才講的你就漏掉兩個你看這個新聞就我們知道有一貫道的信徒"},{"start":10978.478,"end":10986.115,"text":"進去被關到現在他沒有做什麼事他就進去宣教而已我上次把兩個混在一起了我剛才私底下了解還有一個齁"},{"start":10987.699,"end":11010.456,"text":"我直接講他是青海無上師的信徒帶著速食推廣手冊也被關到現在他怎麼會知道他是高風險他也沒在政府機關任職他只不過有人去那邊洪教基督徒我還在調查有沒有去帶著聖經因為聖經在中國是禁書嘛國安局長我最後請教你目前這幾個人回來了沒啊一貫到跟青海無上師這些還沒有還關著對"},{"start":11012.964,"end":11035.361,"text":"阿他們犯了什麼法?犯了中國什麼法?對那中國就以他們的國安法制來羅列一些罪名把一貫道的信徒然後把推廣素食的人關起來報告委員他們這個在中共的刑法裡面叫做利用匯道門擾亂社會秩序他就把它定義為邪教嘛對所謂的匯道門就是邪教或是地下"},{"start":11035.981,"end":11036.721,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢"},{"start":11071.619,"end":11094.112,"text":"謝謝主席主席先請文化部、國安局跟調查局請國安還有文化部還有調查局謝謝好因為我的題目其實跟在場的所有官員都有關不過我們一個一個來齁首先我先請文化部王珍次長你好委員好我們來看到就是"},{"start":11095.829,"end":11125.089,"text":"這個是一個發生在2023年10月的案子了蒙藏文化中心有科員涉及為中國來探尋藏獨情資那麼一國安法已經起訴了其實我舉這個案子我們知道現在已經是在偵辦當中我想要強調的就是以我們今天的命題可以看得出來中國的滲透其實早就已經生出魔炸包括連文化部這裡都有那麼更不要講今天很多委員所關心的就是"},{"start":11126.03,"end":11133.724,"text":"中國的記者的部分所以我想請問現在這樣的一個案件當中文化部有沒有進行哪些內部跟行政的調查"},{"start":11134.813,"end":11163.668,"text":"如果以這個文化中心的案子來說我們在當時就立刻有進行了一些約談的行政調查那一個案子因為也牽涉到檢方的起訴那所以在當時我們就立即就隔天我們就立刻停職就是請他先離開工作場域避免有任何可能性可以接觸到相關的文件資料所以當時這個刺探相關的情資的這一位人員他是受到中國的相關的組織所吸納或吸收嗎那你們知道的狀況又是怎麼樣"},{"start":11165.375,"end":11190.851,"text":"就我們的行政調查來說因為本案已經進入司法調查我就不特別說明內容不過就我們的理解來說他不這樣認為他覺得是他的朋友啦所以我要強調的就是在我們過去一直以來中國的滲透的面向是非常多的包括主席我要請NCC我也請包括現在文化部或者是國安局或調查局來瞭解一下"},{"start":11192.632,"end":11220.023,"text":"這個有媒體人直接就在電視上面在節目上面說他們有中國的朋友寄來了高價的手機誰寄的他不知道但他會說打開來真好用我先問一下我們調查局的局長局長如果你收到一個中國來的朋友但是是誰不知道寄一個手機給你竟然敢拿來用而且還在電視上講好用這個不奇怪嗎"},{"start":11220.883,"end":11244.753,"text":"這非常非常奇怪那這樣的案子你們有沒有主動想要來做調查跟了解咧我想這些媒體的朋友他們收到客人寄來的禮物應該不會是我們調查局立案的一個依據啦可能還要看參酌如果還有其他的一些比較可疑的跡象增後的話我們可能還會有立案的條件所以國安局呢"},{"start":11245.473,"end":11257.883,"text":"今天如果蔡局長你收到一支來自中國不知道誰寄給你的號稱是中國來的朋友送的高價手機啊然後是某個品牌的啊結果拿來居然說哇真好用"},{"start":11259.859,"end":11284.609,"text":"這個不奇怪嗎?對我想對於一些如果沒有人檢舉我現在在這裡就請你來調查這個案子好不好?就資通訊安全的問題確實是我們的關注重點那對於對岸製作的手機或是相關的通訊軟體的資安風險那我想各單位都有做一些警示那委員所提到這個案例他到底有沒有違法的樣態這個可能目前還沒有構成要件好如果"},{"start":11285.789,"end":11307.973,"text":"調查局跟國安局都認為沒有違法樣態那來NCC這就變成打廣告囉因為剛剛調查局跟國安局都說他們這個違法的樣態沒有很明確本席媒體出來我們知道特定商品是不能拿到電視上面尤其是新聞頻道來做置入的喔那這就置入了是不是"},{"start":11308.433,"end":11320.827,"text":"因為如果沒有違法樣態那就置入啦兩個一定有一個嘛不違法因為剛剛都說這個違法樣態還不一定有明顯嘛不一定是中國的資通訊那好啊那那就是為特定品牌打廣告囉那NCC有沒有要開罰"},{"start":11323.902,"end":11335.987,"text":"報告委員這個在按照廣電法上面是對商品或服務有置入行銷他說這個手機很好用捏隨手一拍驚為天人好我具名檢舉"},{"start":11340.646,"end":11360.141,"text":"好那我們假使民眾有檢舉的話我們會送到廣播電視節目內容諮詢委員會去審議好我要強調的就是其實在場的各位都針對國家的安全兼複習非常重要的任務喔因為中國在22條他所營造的這種長臂管轄是一個所謂新的法律戰的應對喔"},{"start":11361.562,"end":11365.763,"text":"包括蔡局長我們其實不只在這裡一次我們講到的是這樣的一個22條他講出來最高可以判死刑對於民眾來講尤其現在是暑假期間剛剛前面非常多的委員都特別提到了如果他們都是用這種藏於無形之中一方面滲透台灣一方面再用法律戰"},{"start":11381.987,"end":11401.652,"text":"來造成人民的恐慌我舉個例子如果以現在中國所設定的利用職權在教育、文化、歷史跟新聞、媒體等領域來扭曲或篡改台灣是中國的一部分我就講一個老師他如果只是在課堂上講說中華民國不屬於中華人民共和國"},{"start":11402.512,"end":11430.513,"text":"那麼他會不會就心生恐懼再來就是剛剛媒體人他收到一支手機這到底是不是禮物是不是要他來為中國美顏因為如果講台灣中華民國不是中華人民的一部分可能會被判死刑但是收個手機來當禮物來做美顏他有可能不會有任何的後果所以像這樣連一般民眾如果都要做政治表態都害怕的時候該怎麼辦"},{"start":11431.514,"end":11452.364,"text":"對我想就法律戰的部分確實是我們關注的重點因為在國際上中國透過聯合國2758號決議案塑造這種國際一中的框架那在這框架之下去限縮台灣的主權地位另外在兩岸交流的部分也正像委員所提到的他提出所謂的成都22條那以這部分希望對台灣來實施這種常備管轄但台灣是一個"},{"start":11453.024,"end":11480.021,"text":"主權民主自由的國家不會讓他的長臂管轄到我們境內來但是風險在於國人到對岸去的話就要特別了解到他們國安新的法制對我們造成了風險那這也是為什麼我們一再利用各種的尋答機會跟國人報告的一定要注意到到對岸旅遊可能的風險存在在哪裡那以及剛剛王定宇委員在提醒我們把這些相關國人的背景樣態哪些人是高風險的也應該要透過我們的機制讓國人更清楚了解這個狀況這我們來努力"},{"start":11481.542,"end":11485.868,"text":"好,所以我們其實現在要面對的是本席其實在總質詢的時候也特別詢問了卓榮泰卓院長喔卓院長當時就講了最可怕的其實是文化入侵那麼在文化入侵的情況底下他不會有任何的形態、樣態"},{"start":11498.746,"end":11525.38,"text":"他就是方方面面的滲透在台灣他可以是用所謂融合、融台他可能也可能是威嚇打台灣但是現在如果在我質詢之後請問一下院長有找相關的部會來針對文化入侵的部分來做相關的示警或者是跨部會的相關的了解嗎行政院部分可能要請行政院部來說明主席有請陸委會"},{"start":11529.999,"end":11533.232,"text":"請副主委是"},{"start":11534.605,"end":11558.772,"text":"相關的卓院長已經特別提到了文化入侵是最可怕的而且是形與無形之間剛剛我舉的那幾個例子都只是要強調不是只有今天在野黨立委或者是其他政黨的立委包括民進黨立委所關心的這個媒體在後面監控的部分它事實上說不定已經滲透進去了包括剛剛我講的華為手機的事件你們有收到相關的訊息嗎"},{"start":11560.031,"end":11574.558,"text":"我們有注意到這樣的訊息那像這樣的訊息之後有沒有更進一步的動作跟了解包括行政院相關的到底誰來負責組織因為國安局或調查局到目前為止文化入侵的有一塊是陸委會這邊在處理"},{"start":11579.74,"end":11598.809,"text":"包括這個宗教或者是其他文化方面的這個所以我們陸委會其實對這方面的訊息是相當注意的那有一部分可能是文化部會去理解但是因為文化入侵它是一個比較不是用法律可以去界定的概念"},{"start":11599.349,"end":11602.03,"text":"所以副主委您的言下之意是有一個部分是陸委會來負責但是有一部分又是文化部次長王次長這裡來負責"},{"start":11627.156,"end":11655.129,"text":"那這樣的分工會不會就出現了盲點沒有一個統合的訊息的機制確實政府在相關的這些防禦工作上面確實盲點算是一定是有的盲點一定是有的所以我們經常就是現在這個有點像對方的攻擊非常多的方面但是防守的部分確實有點很多時候是會有點疲於奔命是"},{"start":11656.35,"end":11682.352,"text":"補充說明一下我想就台灣來講要捍衛我們的國家安全以及反制中共的統戰滲透最大的武器最重要的武器就是法律所以我們的法律工作法律工具一定要完備那這也是為什麼剛剛王定宇委員也在提醒我們我們從各種不同案例當中怎麼樣找出樣態那在適用我們的國家法律過程當中又有沒有哪些灰色地帶不適用的地方這部分我們還配合貴院來做一些相關的檢討跟提供意見給各位委員參考"},{"start":11682.972,"end":11708.405,"text":"局長因為時間有限我只希望透過這幾個具體案例的提示也希望國安局、調查局或是其他相關的部會能夠有一個整合的狀況千萬不要出現一個案例然後才去動作那這個時候可能他就已經拍拍屁股走人已經離開了那這個是我們其實最不希望的是不是可以把其他相關的這些同樣的這些所謂樣態再做一個進一步的整理交給我們國防外交委員會好謝謝委員提醒我們來處理"},{"start":11712.401,"end":11713.042,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員、洪森漢委員"},{"start":11730.396,"end":11752.563,"text":"牛許廷委員、葉元芝委員提出書面質詢．請列入記錄並刊登公報．請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆．委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分．或要求補充資料則亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供．委員另約定期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束。散會"}]}},{"id":"16076","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16076","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea24c05d0b3147a60790a0be61fea148184f242ceca9577839ecba98ac3abb34835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十條、第七十一條及第七十三條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra 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勞動部勞發署陳竹必須向外人即席答覆決定登記方案委員除不在場者外局域進行方案完畢詢答結束。依委員陳庭卑及陳煥亭所提書面執行略入紀律刊登公報。二、書面執行未及答覆部分請向外單位一周內書面答覆並複製本會。"},{"start":1899.727,"end":1914.976,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議一事落時間113年7月4日星期四九十一分日十四時三十四分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員林黛華委員等14人列席委員范雲委員等8人"},{"start":1915.656,"end":1941.728,"text":"列席委員國防會主委劉靜卿經濟部政策承認其財政部副罪署副署長倪立新主計總處董記處長蔡玉泰及各單位相關人員主席邱昭吉委員議員主席宣告本院議程今年以來民間投資展望日趨樂觀各部會續保投資動能之政策作為四個部會書面報告均列入紀錄刊登公報所列議程令則其繼續進行。散會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1946.923,"end":1965.079,"text":"好,那我們現在呢,議事錄待會再確認吼。我們現在進行討論四項,請宣讀。一、繼續審查。一、本院委員陳素月等人擬具《植物診療師法草案》案。二、本院委員陳邱議瑩等人擬具《植物診療師法草案》案。"},{"start":1965.8,"end":1978.216,"text":"三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等人擬具、「植物診療師法草案案。」二、審查一、行政院函請審議、「植物診療師法草案案。」二、本院委員羅廷偉等人擬具、「植物診療師法草案案。」宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1983.789,"end":2010.791,"text":"好謝謝我們議事組人員我們本日議程所列的討論事項已經在6月13日呢詢答完畢而後院會交付本會委員本會審查的提案呢有行政院以及委員羅廷偉等18人分別凝聚植物診療師法案等二案我們列入公報現在我們總共有五個版本今日就一併進行協商"},{"start":2014.578,"end":2029.326,"text":"好進行審查植物診療師法案現在進行廣泛討論沒有廣泛討論登記那我們請議事組人員宣讀所有的條文若有修正動議及互待決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢之後我們再進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":2033.388,"end":2052.951,"text":"行政院提案法案名稱植物診療師法第一章總則第一條為提升植物保護水準強化植物防疫檢疫及高風險農藥之使用管理建立植物診療師專業服務體系特制定本法第二條本法所稱主管機關在中央為農業部在直轄市為直轄市政府"},{"start":2053.692,"end":2063.355,"text":"在縣市為縣市政府第3條中華民國國民經植物診療師考試及格並依本法擬有植物診療師證書者得充任植物診療師第4條請領植物診療師證書"},{"start":2068.34,"end":2092.281,"text":"應填據申請書並檢附資格證明文件,送請中央主管機關核發之第五條有下列情形之一者不得稱任植物診療師,以稱任者撤銷或廢止其植物診療師證書。一、依專門職業及技術人員考試法規定,經撤銷考試及格資格。二、因業務上有關之故意犯罪行為,受一年有期徒刑以上刑之判決確定。"},{"start":2093.905,"end":2101.338,"text":"好 我們謝謝議事組人員現場我們還有兩位委員包括 本席有三位所以我們先確認議事錄剛剛所宣導的議事錄請問有沒有意見"},{"start":2105.578,"end":2132.567,"text":"好,那我們議事錄確認請繼續宣讀第五條有下列情形之一者不得充任植物診療師以充任者撤銷或廢止其植物診療師證書依依專門職業及技術人員考試法規定經撤銷考試及格資格二因業務上有關之故意犯罪行為受一年有期徒刑以上刑之判決確定而未受緩刑之宣告但於刑之執行完畢或赦免後已滿二年者不在此限"},{"start":2133.827,"end":2154.018,"text":"三、曾經撤銷或廢止植物診療師證書自處分確定日期尚未屆滿二年。第六條,非領有植物診療師證書者不得使用植物診療師或亦使人誤認為植物診療師之名稱。第二章,職業。第七條,非領有植物診療師證書者不得執行植物有害生物鑑定報告。"},{"start":2154.898,"end":2183.781,"text":"植物疫病寵害之診斷書防治意見書及相關植物健康證明文件之簽證業務但機關購醫法規執行前開文件之簽證者不在此限植物診療師除執行前項簽證業務外並得辦理下列事項一、植物有害生物之診斷及鑑定二、植物特定有害生物之監測及調查三、植物有害生物綜合防治技術藥劑與資材使用之指導及推廣四、植物生理障礙之診斷及"},{"start":2184.822,"end":2199.623,"text":"治療五、其他法規規定由植物診療師辦理之業務第一項所稱簽證指植物診療師一業務事件主管機關之法規執行植物有害生物之診斷鑒定或推薦防治管理方法作成報告診斷書防治意見書"},{"start":2202.967,"end":2217.071,"text":"或證明文件並於其上簽名或蓋章。第八條,植物診療師之職業機構如下。一、植物診療機構。二、設有農業相關科系所學位或學程之大專院校。三、農會或農業生產運銷合作社。四、農業試驗研究機構。五、農藥生產業或販賣業者。六、其他精裝主管機關認可之機構。"},{"start":2225.734,"end":2228.239,"text":"第九條,植物診療師應則依擬職業之職業機構,向該機構所在地直轄市縣市主管機關申請職業登記,領有職業執照使得職業。"},{"start":2237.438,"end":2266.635,"text":"植物診療師與取得職業執照後得於全國執行業務植物診療師職業應於一定期間完成繼續教育及取得積分辦理職業執照更新第一項申請職業登記之資格條件程序應檢附文件登記事項職業執照發給換發補發更新與前項繼續教育之一定期間課程內容積分實施方式完成繼續教育之認定證明文件取得及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":2267.355,"end":2286.076,"text":"第十條,植物診療師有下列情形跡者不得發給職業執照,以臨者撤銷或廢止之。依第五條規定不得充任植物診療師。二、經撤銷或廢止植物診療師職業執照自處分確定日期尚未屆滿一年,但依第十一條規定廢止職業執照者不適用之。"},{"start":2286.917,"end":2295.284,"text":"三、受監護或輔助宣告尚未撤銷。四、由客觀事實任不能執行業務經執辖市縣市主管機關邀請相關專科醫師、植物診療師及學者專家組成小組認定。"},{"start":2302.762,"end":2319.537,"text":"前項第三款或第四款原因消失後能得依前條第一項規定申請職業執照。第十一條,植物診療師有歇業停業或原申請職業登記事項變更者,應自事實發生之日起算三十日內,有副業者應自副業前三十日內。"},{"start":2320.658,"end":2327.162,"text":"一、歇業報原發職業執照機關廢止職業執照二、停業或復業報原發職業執照機關備查三、原申請職業登記事項變更報原發職業執照機關許可但登記職業機構遷移至其他直轄市縣市職業者應依第九條第一項規定辦理植物診療師停業超過一年者視為歇業由原發職業執照機關廢止其職業執照"},{"start":2349.485,"end":2370.535,"text":"第1項申報廢紙被查申請職業登記事項變更之程序應檢附文件職業執照註記換發註銷與前項停業時間之認定及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第12條植物診療師職業應加入職業登記處所所在地植物診療師公會植物診療師公會不得拒絕"},{"start":2372.896,"end":2390.93,"text":"具有會員資格者入會第13條植物診療師執行業務應製作診療記錄其內容應與植物診療事實相符植物診療師開列之植物有害生物鑑定報告植物疫病寵壞之診斷書防治意見書或相關植物健康證明文件之內容應與診療記錄相符"},{"start":2392.771,"end":2407.977,"text":"前項診療記錄應以中文製作並交由職務職業機構妥善保存。第一項診療記錄之應記載事項與前項診療記錄之製作保存方式及保存年限由中央主管機關公告之。"},{"start":2408.757,"end":2426.304,"text":"第14條植物診療師於執行業務時發現在中華民國未有發生記錄之有害生物除指示防治及隔離方法外並應將植物種類有害生物名稱植物所有人或管理人之姓名及住址於24小時內通報主管機關"},{"start":2428.018,"end":2454.306,"text":"第15條,植物診療師受政府有關機關詢問或委託鑒定時不得為虛偽之陳述或報告。第16條,植物診療師對於植物疫病蟲害防治事項有遵從主管機關指揮之義務。第17條,植物診療師不得將植物診療師證書或職業執照租借他人使用。第18條,主管機關為稽查取締違反本法規定之行為必要時得進入植物診療師職業機構現有或五年內曾有執行"},{"start":2458.147,"end":2481.865,"text":"植物診療師業務及其他與植物診療師業務有關之長所檢查任何人不得規避妨礙或拒絕。主管機關執行前向植物之人員應向關係人出示有關執行植物之證明文件或顯示足資辨別之標誌。第三章植物診療機構管理第19條植物診療機構應向所在地直轄市縣市主管機關申請開業登記領有開業執照使得開業"},{"start":2486.129,"end":2498.43,"text":"前項申請開業登記之資格條件程序應檢附文件登記事項開業執照發給換發補發其他相關事項之辦法及植物診療機構設置之標準由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":2499.721,"end":2507.163,"text":"第20條植物診療機構應致負責植物診療師一人自然人設立之植物診療機構以其申請人為負責植物診療師對其診療業務副督導之責。第21條非植物診療機構不得使用植物診療機構或亦使人誤認為植物診療機構之名稱植物診療機構名稱之使用及變更原則由中央主管機關公告之。"},{"start":2526.368,"end":2540.303,"text":"第二十二條依第十九條規定申請開業登記有下列情形之一者不得發給開業執照疑臨者撤銷或廢止之依申請人或負責植物診療師依第十條第一項規定不得發給職業執照"},{"start":2542.205,"end":2569.438,"text":"或經撤銷或廢止職業執照但有第10條第二項所定情形者不適用之二、植物診療機構經撤銷或廢止開業執照自主處分確定日期尚未屆滿一年申請人以相同或類似之名稱在同一縣市或在同一直轄市或縣市區域內提出申請或由同一負責植物診療師在原址或其他處所申請設立植物診療機構"},{"start":2570.819,"end":2588.904,"text":"但依第二十三條規定廢止開業執照者不適用之第二十三條植物診療機構有歇業停業或原登記事項變更者因自事實發生之日起算三十日內有副業者因自副業前三十日內依下列規定辦理依歇業報原發開業執照機關廢止開業執照"},{"start":2593.342,"end":2612.114,"text":"二、停業或復業報原發開業執照機關備查三、原申請開業登記事項便跟報原發開業執照機關許可但遷移至其他直轄市縣市者應依第19條第一項規定辦理植物診療機構停業超過一年者視為歇業由原發開業執照機關"},{"start":2614.685,"end":2640.536,"text":"廢止其開業執照依第一項規定辦理時應同時辦理所屬職業植物診療師之歇業停業復業或職業登記事項變更第一項申請廢止被查申請開業登記事項變更之程序應檢附文件開業執照註記換發註銷與第二項停業時間之認定及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第二四條植物診療機構應將其開業執照植物診療師職業執照"},{"start":2644.398,"end":2645.078,"text":"第25條非植物診療機構或植物診療師不得為植物診療廣告"},{"start":2666.86,"end":2680.071,"text":"植物診療機構及植物診療師對其業務不得登載、散布、虛偽之廣告。第26條,植物診療機構應提供收費明細表及收據。第27條,主管機關依本法合法植物診療師證書、職業執照及開業執照等"},{"start":2683.053,"end":2696.027,"text":"因收取費用,其收費標準由中央主管機關定之。第四章法則,第28條,植物診療機構聘任或容留非領有植物診療師證書者,擅自執行植物診療師簽證業務,處心台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰還,並得廢止其開業執照。"},{"start":2703.414,"end":2717.663,"text":"植物診療機構有下列情形之一者處新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰款五年內再次違反者得病處一個月以上一年以下之停業處分依聘用或容留依第29條第30條第35條第一項規定受一定期間停業處分或廢止職業執照之植物診療師從事植物診療師簽證業務"},{"start":2726.229,"end":2751.875,"text":"二、管理上有明顯疏失致他能冒用職業植物診療師簽章或編造其簽署之診療記錄。植物有害生物鑑定報告、植物疫病蟲害之診斷書防治意見書或相關植物健康證明文件。第29條,植物診療師有下列情形之一者處新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰還。五年內再次違反者得病處一個月以上一年以下停業處分或廢止其職業執照。"},{"start":2753.82,"end":2779.295,"text":"一、違反第13條第一項規定製作與診療事實不符之診療紀錄或開立與診療紀錄不符之植物有害生物鑑定報告植物疫病蟲害之診斷書防治意見書或相關植物健康證明文件二、違反第15條規定受政府有關機關詢問或委託鑑定時為虛偽之陳述或報告三、違反第16條規定對於植物疫病蟲害防治事項未遵從主管機關之指揮"},{"start":2780.396,"end":2797.523,"text":"第30條植物診療師違反第17條規定將其證書或職業執照租借他人使用處心臺幣3萬元以上數萬元下法還並令其獻其改善藉其未改善者按次處罰情節重大者並得廢止其植物診療師證書及職業執照第31條違反第7條第一項規定非領有植物診療師證書者"},{"start":2803.786,"end":2825.256,"text":"善自執行植物診療師簽證業務處新臺幣3萬元以上、數萬元以下罰還。第32條植物診療師有下列情形之一者處新臺幣5千元以上、2萬5千元以下罰還並另期限期改善藉其未改善者案次處罰。依違反第9條第一項規定未上登記職業機構所在地直轄市縣市主管機關申請職業執照而執業。"},{"start":2827.057,"end":2852.403,"text":"二、違反第九條第三項規定為與一定期間完成繼續教育或取得積分或辦理職業執照更新。三、為依第十一條第一項規定辦理歇業、停業、復業或原申請職業登記事項之變更。四、違反第十三條第二項規定執行業務未以中文製作診療記錄或未將診療記錄交由職業機構保存或違反依第十三條第三項所定公告有關診療記錄應記載事項製作方式之規定。"},{"start":2856.024,"end":2865.171,"text":"第33條有下列情形之一者處心臺必三千元以上一萬五千元下罰還並令其限期改善藉其未改善者按次處罰"},{"start":2866.957,"end":2890.205,"text":"一、違反第六條規定非擬有植物診療師證書者使用植物診療師或一使人誤認為植物診療師之名稱。二、植物診療師違反第十二條第一項規定為加入職業登記處所在地植物診療師公會而職業。三、植物診療師公會違反第二項規定拒絕具有會員資格者入會。四、職業機構違反"},{"start":2891.966,"end":2899.956,"text":"一、第13條第三項所定公告有關診療記錄保存方式或保存年限制規定五、違反第18條第一項規定規避妨礙或拒絕主管機關之檢查六、違反第19條第一項規定為領有開業執照而開業"},{"start":2907.285,"end":2930.353,"text":"或植物診療機構經徹銷或廢止開業執照人開業經營。七、植物診療機構未依第19條第二項鎖定標準設置。八、非植物診療機構違反第21條第一項規定使用植物診療機構或易使人誤認為植物診療機構之名稱或植物診療機構違反依第21條第二項鎖定公告有關名稱使用或變更原則之規定。"},{"start":2930.993,"end":2942.998,"text":"九、植物診療機構違第23條第一項規定辦理歇業、停業、復業或原申請開業登記事項之變更。十、植物診療機構違反第24條第一項規定未將開業執照、植物診療師職業執照、診療時間及其他診療規則懸掛於明顯處所。十一、非植物診療機構或植物診療師違反第25條第一項規定為植物診療廣告。"},{"start":2954.238,"end":2969.964,"text":"十二、植物診療機構或植物診療師違反第25條第二項規定對其業務登載或散布需維持廣告十三、植物診療機構違反第26條規定未提供收費明細表及收據植物診療機構經撤銷或廢止開業執照仍繼續開業者除於前項第六款規定處罰外並得廢止其負責植物診療師證書"},{"start":2978.607,"end":2995.959,"text":"第34條植物診療師違反第14條規定未指示防治及隔離方法或未於24小時內將植物種類有害生物名稱植物所有人或管理人之姓名及住址通報主管機關者處心台幣3000元以上15000元以下罰還第35條植物診療師受停業處分而執行業務者"},{"start":3001.764,"end":3027.569,"text":"廢止其職業執照依本法受撤銷或廢止職業執照處分能執行業務者廢止其植物診療師證書植物診療機構受停業處分而不停業者廢止其開業執照第36條本法所定法還停業撤銷廢止職業執照或開業執照由直轄市或縣市主管機關為之撤銷廢止植物診療師證書由中央主管機關為之"},{"start":3028.809,"end":3044.316,"text":"第五章公會第37條植物診療師公會分為下列二級一直轄市級縣市植物診療師公會二全國植物診療師公會第38條各級植物診療師公會以行政區域為其組織區域在同一區域內"},{"start":3045.296,"end":3060.929,"text":"同期之公會以一個為縣,第三十九條之下是縣市植物診療師公會以在該區域申請職業登記之植物診療師九人以上發起組織之其不滿九人者得加入鄰近區域之公會或公共"},{"start":3061.73,"end":3087.007,"text":"公共組織之全國植物診療師公會之設立應由三分之一以上之直轄市縣市植物診療師公會完成組織後使得發起組織直轄市及縣市植物診療師公會應交互全國植物診療師公會為會員第四十條各級植物診療師公會由職業團體主管機關主管但其目的事業應受主管機關之指導監督"},{"start":3090.909,"end":3113.9,"text":"第41條各級植物診療師公會製理事監事均與周開會員代表大會時由會員代表選舉之並分別成立理事會監事會其名額如下一、直轄市縣市植物診療師公會製理事不得超過15人二、全國植物診療師公會製理事不得超過35人三、各級植物診療師公會製監事名額"},{"start":3116.468,"end":3145.708,"text":"不得超過各該公會理事名額三分之一四個級植物診療師公會均致候補理事候補監事其名額不得超過各該理事監事名額三分之一前向理事監事名額在三分人以上者得分別互選常務理事及常務監事其名額不得超過理事或監事總額三分之一並依章程規定選舉一人為理事長理事監事之任及軍委三年其連選連任者不得超過"},{"start":3146.768,"end":3168.776,"text":"二分之一,理事長之連任以次為限。第四十二條,植物診療師公會應定義章程照據會員名冊及選任職員簡歷冊,送請職業團體主管機關核准立案並應分報主管機關備查。第四十三條,各級植物診療師公會章程應載明項列事項一,名稱二中指三區域,"},{"start":3169.276,"end":3188.031,"text":"四、會址五、任務六、組織七、會員之五、會退會及除名八、會員之權利及義務九、理事監事及會員代表之名額、權限任期、選任及解任十、會議十一、會員應遵守之公約十二、會員經費及會計十三、章程之修改"},{"start":3188.556,"end":3214.957,"text":"此事其他依法令規定應載明知事項第44條各級植物診療師公會應將下列各款事項分報職業團體主管機關及主管機關一、會員名冊及會員之入會退會二、理監視選舉情形及當選人姓名三、會員大會理事會及監事會開會之會議記錄四、章程變更第45條各級植物診療師公會"},{"start":3217.459,"end":3234.861,"text":"會員代表大會或禮監視會議之決議由違反法令者由職業團體主管機關撤銷之,前項處分亦得由主管機關為之。第46條之,或者僚事公會會員由違反法令或章程之行為者公會得依禮監視會議或會員代表大會之決議處分之。"},{"start":3236.443,"end":3254.186,"text":"其因受除名處分者需經會員代表大會通過將其事實證據報請職業團體主管機關專請主管機關核准予以除名第六章負責第47條植物診療師對植物防疫檢疫或其他植物保護業務有重大貢獻者"},{"start":3255.067,"end":3275.432,"text":"主管機關應予獎勵第48條外國人得益中華民國法律應應植物診療師考試前項考試及格領有植物診療師證書之外國人施用本法及其他有關植物診療師之法令第49條農業原液及林業計師依計師法及其他相關法規"},{"start":3276.312,"end":3296.327,"text":"執行業務不適用本法之規定。第五十條本法施行細則由中央主管機關定之。第五十一條本法之公佈日施行。委員陳素月等17人提案法案名稱植物診療師法第一章章明同行政院提案第一條除第二具修正為強化植物防疫檢疫目的其餘同行政院提案第一條"},{"start":3297.128,"end":3317.513,"text":"第二條同行政院提案第二條第三條除第一具修正為中華民國國民經植物診療師考試及格擬有植物診療師證書者其餘同行政院提案第三條第四條同行政院提案第四條第五條依法受撤銷或廢止植物診療師證書者二年內不得充任植物診療師第六條非擬有植物診療師證書者"},{"start":3319.033,"end":3345.076,"text":"不得使用植物診療師名稱或其他類似名稱未取得植物診療師證書者不得執行第七條第五款鎖定植物診療師業務但有下列情形機者不在此限依行政機關或其委任托機關構依相關法律執行業務二、大學植物醫學系或植物保護相關系所學位學成學生或畢業生在植物診療師指導下協助執行植物診療師業務"},{"start":3347.11,"end":3365.368,"text":"第二章章明彤行政院提案第七條植物診療師執行業務如下一植物特定有害生物之診斷及鑑定二植物特定有害生物之監測及調查三植物疫病害蟲綜合防治技術之推廣四植物疫病害蟲防治方法及藥劑與資材使用之指導"},{"start":3366.169,"end":3382.498,"text":"五、植物疫病害蟲診斷書處方及相關證明文件之開具或簽證事項。六、其他中央主管機關指定與植物健康管理有關事項。第八條,除第一項第二款修正為大專院效,第三款修正為農會及生產、運銷和作色。"},{"start":3385.279,"end":3400.205,"text":"第五款修正為農藥販賣及生產業其餘同行政院提案第八條、第九條植物診療師應向主要職業機構所在地直轄市縣市主管機關申請職業登記領有職業執照後使得執行業務"},{"start":3401.963,"end":3425.418,"text":"植物診療師於申請職業執照後得於全國執行業務植物診療師職業時應於一定期間接受繼續教育第四項第三行具中刪除段號更新末段修正為取得證明文件及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之其餘文字同行政院提案第九條第四項第十條第一項第二款修正為精確"},{"start":3426.799,"end":3451.076,"text":"經廢止植物診療師職業執照未滿一年但依第11條廢止職業執照者不在此限第四款修正為罹患精神疾病或身心狀況違常經中央主管機關委請二位以上相關專科醫師諮詢並經中央主管機關認定不能執行業務第二項手續修正為前項第四款原因消失後其餘文字同行政院提案第十條"},{"start":3451.897,"end":3471.311,"text":"第11條植物診療師歇業停業復業或原申請職業登記事項有變更者應自事實發生之日起30日內依下列規定辦理第一款歇業後改為冒號第二款停業或復業後改為冒號第三款原申請職業登記事項變更冒號報原發職業執照機關核准"},{"start":3475.424,"end":3489.014,"text":"但主要職業機構遷移至其他直轄市縣市職業應依第9條規定辦理其餘文字同行政院提案第11條第12條第一項第二具修正為應加入主要職業機構所在地植物診療師工會"},{"start":3490.515,"end":3494.997,"text":"其餘文字同行政院提案第12條。第13條,植物診療師執行業務應以中文製作植物診療師診療記錄並將診療記錄保存於職業機構內。前項診療記錄之應記載事項及保存年限"},{"start":3506.162,"end":3531.485,"text":"與本法施行細則定之。第十四條首具修正為植物診療師與執行業務發現在我國未有發生紀錄之有害生物。末具修正為於24小時內通報中央主管機關其餘文字同行政院提案第十四條。第十五條同行政院提案第十五條。第十六條首具增加天災事變治生等字其餘同行政院提案第十六條。"},{"start":3532.406,"end":3548.979,"text":"第17條除第一項第二句刪除必要時五年內及後段增加加以等文字其餘同行政院提案第18條第三章張明同行政院提案第18條申請人符合下列條件之一者得申請設立植物診療機構"},{"start":3550.916,"end":3566.004,"text":"一、自然人設立之植物診療機構領有職業執照之植物診療師二、公立植物診療機構其代表人三、法人植物診療機構該法人植物診療機構之設立應向直轄市縣市主管機關申請核准"},{"start":3567.148,"end":3590.317,"text":"得登記、發給開業執照。植物診療機構之設置標準由所在地主管機關定定之。第19條除拒守、增加、公立及法人等字其餘。同行政院提案第20條。第20條、第18條,申請人或植物診療機構有下列情形之一者不得發給開業執照,疑臨者撤銷或廢止之。一、有第10條低效不得發給撤銷或廢止職業執照。二、經廢止開業登記未滿一年。"},{"start":3595.279,"end":3618.186,"text":"但依第二十二條規定廢止開業執照者不在此限第二十一條植物診療機構名稱之使用及變更原則與本法施行細則定之非植物診療機構不得使用植物診療機構或類似之名稱第二十二條植物診療機構歇業停業復業或其登記事項變更者應自事實發生之日起三十日內依下列規定辦理"},{"start":3618.806,"end":3636.568,"text":"第一款歇業後改為冒號第二款停業或復業後改為冒號其餘文字同行政院提案第二三條第一項第一款及第二款三、原申請開業登記事項變更冒號報原方開業執照機關核准但遷移至其他直轄市縣市者應依第十八條規定辦理"},{"start":3637.97,"end":3652.648,"text":"第二項同行政院提案第二三條第二項第二十三條第一項後段增加開業執照毀損或滅失時應及向直轄市縣市主管機關申請換發或補發等字其餘同行政院提案第二四條第一項"},{"start":3653.709,"end":3675.734,"text":"第二項植物診療師之職業執照毀損或滅失時應及向直轄市縣市主管機關申請換發或補發第二四條非植物診療機構不得為診療廣告植物診療機構對其業務不得登載散佈虛偽之廣告第二十五條同行政院提案第二十六條第四張張明同行政院提案第二十六條第一項倒數第二具修正為"},{"start":3677.136,"end":3701.823,"text":"受廢止職業執照處分能執行業務者其餘文字同行政院提案第35條第一項第27條植物診療機構有下列情形之一者處新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰還或併處一個月以上一年以下之停業處分依聘任或容留依前條第28條受一定期間停業處分或廢止職業執照之植物診療師從事"},{"start":3703.644,"end":3731.216,"text":"植物診療師業務二、管理上有明顯疏失至他能冒用職業植物診療師簽章或編造其簽署至診斷書鑑定報告或其他診療相關證明文件。植物診療機構有下列情形之一者處新台幣三萬元以上數萬元以下罰還並得廢止其開業執照。一、聘用或容由未取得職業診療師證書者擅自執行植物診療師業務。二、受停業處分而不停業。"},{"start":3732.591,"end":3760.118,"text":"第28條,植物診療師有下列情形之一者處心臺幣三萬元以上數萬元以下罰還因而致植物疫病害蟲擴散或再犯者得病除一個月以上一年以下停業處分或廢止其職業執照一違反第15條規定受政府有關機關詢問或委託鑑定時為虛偽之陳述或報告者二違反第16條規定對於天災事變致生植物疫病蟲害防治等事項未遵從主管機關之指揮"},{"start":3761.718,"end":3780.639,"text":"三、植物診療師診療記錄之內容與診療事實不符,開具與診療事實不符之診斷書、檢驗證明書、影像記錄或其他診療相關證明文件。第29條,植物診療師將其證書或職業執照租借他人使用,處心臺幣三萬元以上數萬元下罰還並命期。"},{"start":3782.661,"end":3799.659,"text":"現期改善藉其未改善者案次處罰。第30條除前段修正為未取得植物診療師證書。擅自執行第7條第5款業務者。其餘文字同行政院提案第31條。第31條第一項序文第三行修正為並命其現期改善。"},{"start":3800.885,"end":3815.793,"text":"第一款第二行改為未向主要職業機構其餘同行政院提案第32條第一項序文及第一款二違反第九條第三項規定未於一定期間完成繼續教育三違反第十一條第一項規定歇業停業復業或原申請職業登記事項變更"},{"start":3818.995,"end":3847.264,"text":"為自事實發生之日起30日內依第11條第一項各款規定辦理。四、違反第13條第一項規定執行業務為製作診療記錄為以中文記載記錄或為依規定保存診療記錄。第三十二條違反第六條第一項規定為領有植物診療師證書而使用植物診療師名稱或其他類似之名稱者處新台幣五千元以上二萬五千元以下罰還。"},{"start":3848.484,"end":3870.368,"text":"第三十三條有下列情形之一者處新台幣三千元以上一萬五千元以下之罰還並命其獻其改善藉其未改善者案次處罰依植物診療師違反第十二條第一項規定未加入植物診療師工會而執業二行為人規避妨礙或拒絕主管機關一第十七條第一項規定所為之檢查"},{"start":3871.707,"end":3894.867,"text":"三、植物診療機構違反第18條第二項規定未申請核准登記或經撤銷或廢止核准登記能開業經營植物診療機構或植物診療機構未符合所在地直轄市或縣市主管機關一第18條第三項所定標準四、植物診療機構違反第21條第一項規定使用中央主管機關指定範圍以外之名稱"},{"start":3895.788,"end":3906.811,"text":"五、非植物診療機構違反第21條第二項規定使用植物診療機構或類似之名稱。六、植物診療機構違反第22條第一項規定與歇業、停業、復業或其登記事項變更時,未於適時發生之日起30日內依第22條第一項各款規定辦理。七、植物診療機構違反第23條第一項規定未將開業執照、植物診療師職業執照、診療時間及其他診療規則懸掛於明顯處所。"},{"start":3923.855,"end":3936.154,"text":"或違反第二三條第二項規定職業之植物診療師其職業執照或開業執照有疑失時未向主管機關申請補發。巴菲植物診療機構違反第二四條第一項規定為診療廣告。"},{"start":3939.318,"end":3961.678,"text":"九、植物診療機構違反第二四條第二項規定對其業務登載、緞號散佈虛偽之廣告。十、植物診療機構違反第二十五條規定未提供收費明細表及收據。植物診療機構受撤銷或廢止核准登記處分,能繼續開業者除依前項第三款規定處罰外,並得廢止其負責植物診療師之植物診療師證書。"},{"start":3963.419,"end":3980.977,"text":"第34條除第三具修正而或位於24小時以內通報中央主管機關者其餘文字同行政院提案第34條第35條第二具改為由直轄市段號縣市主管機關為之封號其餘同行政院提案第36條"},{"start":3982.358,"end":3993.235,"text":"第五章章明同行政院提案第36條除第一項第一款修正為直轄市及縣市公會其餘文字同行政院提案第37條第37條同行政院提案第38條"},{"start":3995.37,"end":4018.904,"text":"第38條除第二行改為該區域工作之植物診療師其餘文字同行政院提案第39條第39條各級植物診療師公會之主管機關為社會行政主管機關但其目的事業應受第二條主管機關之指導監督第40條除第二項修正為前項各款理事監視名額在三人以上時"},{"start":4020.004,"end":4043.658,"text":"應分別互選常務理事及常務監事其名額不得超過理事或監事總額三分之一據號其文字同行政院提案第41條第41條植物診療師公會應訂立章程造具會員名冊及職員簡歷冊申請所在地社會行政主管機關立案並應分報目的事業主管機關被查"},{"start":4044.398,"end":4073.472,"text":"第42條除第一項第五款修正為任務或事業其餘文字同行政院提案第43條除目據修正為由社會行政主管機關撤銷之其餘文字同行政院提案第45條第一項第44條第四項修正為其違反法令應受除名處分者需經會員代表大會通過將其事實證據報請社會行政主管機關轉請目的事業主管機關核轉予以除名"},{"start":4074.352,"end":4086.949,"text":"其餘文字同行政院提案第46條,第六張張明同行政院提案第45條同行政院提案第47條,第46條同行政院提案第48條,第47條同行政院提案第50條,第48條同行政院提案第51條。"},{"start":4092.605,"end":4113.704,"text":"委員邱議瑩等17人提案。法案名稱植物診療師法第一章章明同行政院提案第一條除第二具修正為並強化植物防疫檢疫目的植物病虫害防治及高風險農藥之使用管理其餘文字同行政院提案第一條第二條同行政院提案第二條第三條第一項同委員陳素月等提案第三條第一項"},{"start":4114.525,"end":4131.592,"text":"第二項,非領有植物診療師證書者不得使用植物診療師名稱或義使人誤認為為植物診療師之名稱。第四條,除第二句改為應具申請書及資格證明文件。其餘文字同行政院提案第四條。第五條,除第一項第二款句末"},{"start":4132.112,"end":4157.96,"text":"以滿二年者後刪除逗點其餘同行政院提案第五條。第六條第一項倒數第二行改為簽證事項末段修正為但機關依法執行前開簽證事項者不在此限。第二項首具末修正為專屬業務第五款具首修正為其他依法令。第三項第二具末修正為法令規定其餘文字同行政院提案第七條。"},{"start":4158.78,"end":4180.87,"text":"第二章章明同行政院提案第七條同行政院提案第八條第八條除第一項第二行刪除逗點項該機構等字第四項倒數第三行文字修正委取得證明文件其餘文字同行政院提案第九條第九條同行政院提案第十條第十條除第三項倒數第三行註銷後改為斷號其餘文字同行政院提案第十一條"},{"start":4181.69,"end":4196.024,"text":"第11條同行政院提案第12條。第12條除第一項倒數,第三項修正為其他診療相關證明文件之內容。第三項第二項修正為動號前項製作動號其餘文字同行政院提案第13條。"},{"start":4198.1,"end":4214.686,"text":"第13條至第16條同行政院提案第14條至第17條。第17條除第一項第二具具首刪除必要時外其餘文字同行政院提案第18條。第三章張明同行政院提案第18條至第20條同行政院提案第19條至第21條。"},{"start":4217.347,"end":4234.946,"text":"第21條除第一項首具修正為第18條第一項之申請第一款第二行修正為一第19條倒數第二具修正為但有第9條第二項所定情形者第二款倒數第二行修正為但一第22條規定其餘文字同行政院提案第22條"},{"start":4236.167,"end":4247.429,"text":"第二十二條第一項第二具修正為因自事實發生之日起三十日內。第四項第四行修正為促銷頓點其文字同行政院提案第二十三條。"},{"start":4248.717,"end":4267.804,"text":"第二十三條同行政院提案第二十四條第二十四條除第一項莫具修正為不得為植物診療廣告其文字同委員陳素月等提案第二十四條第二十五條同行政院提案第二十六條第二十六條除倒數第二具修正為其收費費額其文字同行政院提案第二十七條第四張張明同行政院提案"},{"start":4268.524,"end":4288.861,"text":"第二七條除第一項倒數第二項修正為二十萬元以下罰還第二項序文第二句修正為處心臺幣三萬元以上二十萬元以下罰還五年內再犯者第一款前段修正為聘任或容留一第二十八條第三十三條第一項規定第二款倒數第二項修正為其他診療相關證明文件其餘文字同行政院提案第二十八條"},{"start":4290.373,"end":4311.763,"text":"第28條第一項續文第二具修正委處新台幣3萬元以上20萬元以下之罰還五年內再犯者第一款前段修正委違反第12條第一項規定目具修正委或其他診療相關證明文件第二款前段修正委違反第14條規定第三款前段修正委違反第15條規定其餘文字同行政院提案第29條"},{"start":4312.864,"end":4337.18,"text":"第29條第一行修正為違反第16條規定。第4行修正為20萬元以下罰還並命期限期改善。取文自同行政院提案第30條。第30條第一項序文同委員陳素月等提案第31條第一項序文。第一款手具修正為違反第8條第一項規定。第二款手具修正為違反第8條第三項規定。第二行改為即取得積分。"},{"start":4337.74,"end":4357.506,"text":"第三款具首修正為未依第10條第一項規定第四款具首修正為違反第12條第二項規定末段修正為或違反第12條第三項規定未依中央主管機關公告有關應記載事項之規定記載其餘文字同行政院提案第32條第一項第一款至第四款"},{"start":4358.266,"end":4373.976,"text":"第31條第一項序文同委員陳素月等提案第33條第一項序文第一款所具修正為違反第三條第二項規定第二款修正為植物診療師違反第11條第一項規定未加入植物診療師工會而職業第四款修正為職業機構"},{"start":4375.997,"end":4402.276,"text":"違反第12條第三項規定 違反第12條第三項規定 違依中央主管機關公告有關製作頓耗保存方式或保存年限制規定製作及保存診療紀錄。第五款手具修正為違反第17條第一項規定 第五款手具修正為違反第17條第一項規定 第六款手具修正為非植物診療機構違反第18條第一項規定 倒數第二句句末文字修正為登記 倒數第二句句末文字修正為登記 第七款修正為植物診療機構未符合中央主管機關一第18條第二項鎖定設置標準 第七款�"},{"start":4404.918,"end":4422.772,"text":"第八款手具修正為非植物診療機構違反第20條第一項規定。目具修正為或違反第20條第二項規定,位於中央主管機關公告有關植物診療機構名稱使用及變更原則之規定。第九款具手修正為植物診療機構位於第22條第一項規定。"},{"start":4425.034,"end":4433.764,"text":"第十款手具修正為植物診療機構違反第23條第一項規定。第十一款手具修正為非植物診療機構違反第24條第一項規定。"},{"start":4436.994,"end":4460.527,"text":"第十二款手具修正為植物診療機構違反第24條第二項規定。第十三款手具修正為植物診療機構違反第25條規定。第二項第一具句末文字修正為登記。其餘文字同行政院提案第33條第一項第一款至第13款及第二項。第32條手具修正為植物診療師違反第13條規定。第三具修正為"},{"start":4460.987,"end":4477.164,"text":"或位於24小時內通報主管機關者其文自同行政院提案第34條,第33條至第34條同行政院提案第35條至第36條,第五章張明同行政院提案第35條同委員陳素月等提案第36條,"},{"start":4478.545,"end":4501.455,"text":"第36條同行政院提案第38條。第37條同委員陳素月等提案第38條。第38條至第43條同委員陳素月等提案第39條至第44條。第6張張明同行政院提案第44條文字同行政院提案第48條,合併為一項。第45條同行政院提案第47條。第46條至第47條同行政院提案第50條。"},{"start":4507.138,"end":4507.359,"text":"日第51條"},{"start":4509.997,"end":4539.18,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等24人提案。法案明稱植物診療師法第一章章明同行政院提案。第一條除第二具修正為強化植物防疫檢疫。其餘同行政院提案第一條。第二條同行政院提案第二條。第三條同委員陳素月等提案第三條。第四條同行政院提案第四條。第五條依本法授撤銷或廢止植物診療師證書者自處分之日起二年內不得充任植物診療師。第六條第一項同行政院提案第六條第一項"},{"start":4539.921,"end":4557.996,"text":"第二項序文具首秀認為非靈有。其餘致第一款同委員陳素月等提案。第六條第二項序文致第一款。第二款具植物病蟲害技師資格者。第三款植物醫學系或植物保護相關科系學生或畢業生在植物診療師指導下協助執行植物診療師業務。"},{"start":4560.353,"end":4579.692,"text":"第二章章銘同行政院提案第七條植物診療師得執行下列業務第一款至第四款同行政院提案第七條第二項第一款至第四款五植物有害生物鑑定報告植物疫病寵害之診斷書防治意見書及相關植物健康證明文件之簽證事項"},{"start":4581.013,"end":4608.84,"text":"六、其他依法令規定由植物診療師辦理之業務。第八條,同行政院提案第八條。第九條,除第一項第一具修正為植物診療師應向你職業之主要職業機構所在地直轄市縣市主管機關申請職業登記。第三項末段修正為應於一定期間完成繼續教育並取得積分。第四項第三行據莫刪除斷號更新倒數第三行文室修正為取得證明文件。"},{"start":4609.58,"end":4630.541,"text":"其餘文字同行政院提案第九條,第十條除第一項第二款前段修正為經費指植物診療師職業執照未滿一年第四款修正為有客觀事實任不能執行業務經主管機關認定其餘文字同行政院提案第十條第一項及第二項增加第三項主管機關依第一項第四款固定為認定時應為請相關專科醫師鑑定"},{"start":4634.229,"end":4660.327,"text":"第11條植物診療師歇業停業復業或原申請職業登記事項有變更者因自事實發生之日起30日內或復業前30日內依下列規定辦理第一款及第二款同行政院提案第11條第一項第一款及第二款第三款原申請職業登記事項變更報原發職業執照機關許可植物診療師停業超過一年者視為歇業由主管機關廢止其職業執照"},{"start":4662.228,"end":4683.36,"text":"第12條除第一項第二具修正為應加入所在地植物診療師公會其餘同行政院提案第12條第13條植物診療師執行業務所製作之診療紀錄植物有害生物堅定報報植物疫病重害之診斷書防止意見書或其他診療相關證明文件之內容英語"},{"start":4684.661,"end":4711.762,"text":"診療事實相符前項診療記錄應以中文製作其內容由中央主管定之並交由職業機構妥善保存第一項診療記錄之應記載四項前項保存方式及保存年限與本法施行細則定之第十四條至第十六條同行政院提案第十四條至第十六條第十七條除第一項第二具刪除必要時及五年內的文字其餘同行政院提案第十八條"},{"start":4712.603,"end":4734.191,"text":"第三章章明同行政院提案第18條至第19條同行政院提案第19條至第20條第二十條第一項同行政院提案第二十一條第一項第二項植物診療機構名稱之使用及變更原則前項議使人誤認為植物診療機構這名稱與本法施行細則定之第二十一條第十八條第一項之申請"},{"start":4735.851,"end":4760.625,"text":"有下列情形積職者不得發給開業執照遺領者撤銷或廢止之。依經撤銷或廢止負責植物醫師職業執照。第二款同委員陳素月等提案第二十條第一項第二款第二十二條植物診療機構歇業停業復業或原登記事項有變更者因自事實發生之日起三十日內或復業前三十日內依下列規定辦理。"},{"start":4761.365,"end":4770.887,"text":"第一款至第三款除第三款莫具修正為應依第18條規定辦理其餘文字同行政院提案第23條第一項第一款至第三款"},{"start":4772.199,"end":4798.915,"text":"第二項至第四項同委員邱議瑩等提案第二十二條第二項至第四項第二十三條同行政院提案第二十四條第二十四條除第二項莫具修正為不得登載、動號、散佈、虛擬之廣告其餘同委員陳素月等提案第二十四條第二十五條同行政院提案第二十六條第二十六條除倒數第二具修正為其收費費額其餘文字同行政院提案第二十七條"},{"start":4799.835,"end":4817.317,"text":"第四章章明同行政院提案。第27條同委員陳素月等提案第26條。第28條同行政院提案第28條第一項。第二項植物診療機構受停業處分而不停業者廢止其開業執照。第三項序文倒數第二句修正為五年內再犯者。"},{"start":4818.098,"end":4834.896,"text":"第一款前段修正為拼論或容留一前條第二九條規定其餘文字同行政院提案第二十八條第二項序文及第一款第二款同委員邱議瑩等提案第二十七條第二項第二款第二十九條除序文倒數第二具修正為五年內再犯者"},{"start":4835.436,"end":4864.354,"text":"第一款第二具修正為製作與診療事實不符之診療記錄植物有害生物鑑定報告植物疫病重害之診斷書防治意見書或其他診療相關證明文件其餘文字同行政院提案第二十九條第三十條同委員陳素月等提案第二十九條第三十一條首具修正為違反第六條第三項規定其餘文字同行政院提案第三十一條第三十二條序文及第一款同委員陳素月等提案第三十一條序文及第一款"},{"start":4865.1,"end":4881.906,"text":"第二款除木具修正為未於一定期間內完成積蓄交易及取得積分第四款木段修正為或違反第13條第三項規定未依施行細則有關應記載事項之規定記載其餘文字同行政院提案第32條第二款至第四款"},{"start":4882.566,"end":4907.464,"text":"第三十三條第一項序文同委員陳素月等提案第三十三條第一項序文第一款所具修正為違反第六條第一項規定第二款莫具修正為為加入植物診療師公會而執業其文自同行政院提案第三十三條第一項第一款至第三款第四款執業機構違反第三十三條第三項規定為依施行細則有關保存方式或保存年限制規定保存診療紀錄"},{"start":4909.878,"end":4933.371,"text":"第五款至第七款同委員邱議瑩等提案第31條第一項第五款至第七款。八、非植物診療機構違反第20條第一項規定使用植物診療機構或義使人誤認為植物診療機構之名稱第九款及第十款同委員邱議瑩等提案第31條第一項第九款及第十款。第十一款非植物診療機構違反第二四條第一項規定為診療廣告"},{"start":4934.972,"end":4951.227,"text":"第十二款、第十三款及第二項同委員邱議瑩等提案第31條第一項第十二款、第十三款及第二項第34條除第三項修正為或未於二十四小時內通報主管及關者其餘人自同行政院提案第34條、第35條與守據後增加除第33條第一項第三款所定罰款"},{"start":4957.133,"end":4971.965,"text":"或第39條所定植物診療師公會之主管機關為之外其文字同行政院提案第36條第五章張明同行政院提案第36條同委員陳素月等提案第36條第37條同行政院提案第38條第38條同行政院提案第39條第一項"},{"start":4976.428,"end":5000.427,"text":"第三十九條同委員陳素月等提案第三十九條第四十條除第二項手具刪除各款等字其餘同委員陳素月等提案第四十條第四十一條倒數借具起修正為申請所在地社會行政主管機關核准立案並因分報目的事業主管機關被查其餘文字同行政院提案第四十二條第四十二條同委員陳素月等提案第四十二條"},{"start":5001.67,"end":5018.66,"text":"第43,各級植物診療師公會應將下列各款事項,呈報所在地社會行政主管機關及目的事業主管機關,一、會員名冊及會員之入會、出會,二、理監視選舉情形及當選人姓名三、會員大會、理事會及監事會開會之決議事項,"},{"start":5022.222,"end":5032.672,"text":"第44條至第45條同委員陳素月等提案第43條至第44條第6張張明同行政院提案第46條同行政院提案第48條第47條至第48條同行政院提案第50條至第51條"},{"start":5039.246,"end":5058.802,"text":"委員羅廷偉等18人提案。法案名稱植物診療師法第一章章明第一條至第六條第二章章明同行政院提案。第七條除第一項倒數第二具改為但機關依法規執行前開文件之簽證者其餘文字同行政院提案。第八條至第十八條第三章章明第十九條至第二十四條。"},{"start":5060.063,"end":5086.253,"text":"同行政院提案第二十五條除第二項墨具修正為不得登載論號散佈區委之廣告其餘文字同委員邱議瑩等提案第二十四條第二十六條至第二十七條第四章招明第二十八條至第三十二條同行政院提案第三十三條除第一項第十一款手具修正為非植物診療機構違反第二十五條第一項規定第十二款手具修正為"},{"start":5086.853,"end":5095.558,"text":"植物診療機構違反第25條第二項規定其餘文字同行政院提案第34條至第36條第5章章明第37條至第46條第6章章明第47條至第51條同行政院提案"},{"start":5101.567,"end":5129.125,"text":"委員賴樂榮等所提修正動議法案名稱植物診療師法第一章章明同行政院提案第一條為全面提升對植物之保護強化植物之防疫檢疫對高風險農藥之使用管理建立植物診療師專業服務體系特制定本法第二條至第六條同行政院提案第二章章明第七條至第八條同行政院提案第九條第一項同行政院提案第二項植物診療師與取得職業執照後得以全國執行業務"},{"start":5132.007,"end":5159.225,"text":"並於一定期間完成繼續教育及取得積分證明辦理職業執照更新第三項同行政院提案第四項第十條至第十三條同行政院提案第十四條除第四行中增加照片、段號等至其餘同行政院提案第十五條至第十八條同行政院提案第三章章明第十九條至第二四條同行政院提案第二十五條同委員羅廷偉等提案第二十五條"},{"start":5160.246,"end":5177.473,"text":"第26條至第27條同行政院提案。第四章章明第28條至第31條同行政院提案。第32條除第二款第二具具墨增加證書等字其餘文字同行政院提案。第33條同委員羅廷偉等提案第33條。第34條第三行中"},{"start":5180.874,"end":5207.29,"text":"增加動號照片等字其餘文字同行政院提案。第35條至第36條第5張張明同行政院提案。第37條除第二款具墨增加聯合會等字其餘文字同行政院提案。第38條同行政院提案。第39條除第二項手具修正為全國植物診療師工會聯合會之設立其餘文字同行政院提案。第40條除第二具"},{"start":5208.53,"end":5222.719,"text":"中增加第二條等字及文字同行政院提案,第41條至第42條同行政院提案,第43條除第11款具末增加及專業倫理規範,第12款具首修正為會費,"},{"start":5225.809,"end":5253.724,"text":"斷號其餘文字同行政院提案第44條除第二行刪除斷號分等字其餘同行政院提案第45條第二項修正為前項處分必要時得由主管機關委之其餘文字同行政院提案第46條及第6章章明同行政院提案第47條除第二行增加斷號發現新型病床駭等字其餘文字同行政院提案第48條至第51條同行政院提案宣讀完畢"},{"start":5255.942,"end":5272.949,"text":"好,謝謝議事主任,很辛苦了。那我們現在進行協商。先協商法案的名稱,第一章章名總則及第一條的條文。我們依序進行協商。首先我們請提案人羅廷偉委員請發言。"},{"start":5284.073,"end":5312.601,"text":"好謝謝趙偉我想我們希望是植物診療師啦那因為以往植物醫生有一些原因最後導致呢最後停滯那有鑑於氣候變遷貿易往來頻繁的產業形態一個改變使植物保護的問題日漸複雜我想我國植物的一個防治的一個病蟲草以及生理障礙的種類繁多若未適當的一個防治每年將造成可觀的一個損失"},{"start":5313.121,"end":5341.948,"text":"消費者對農產品的安全越來越重視食安的問題不容忽視為提供農民及農企業的相關專業植物保護的建議以降低農民生產的成本減少農藥的殘留我想我在這邊也跟部長曾經探討過農藥殘留的相關問題降低國外有害生物傳入我國的風險使有建立植物診療師專業制度的必要另為強化植物防疫檢疫的具有防害"},{"start":5342.808,"end":5361.275,"text":"人體健康或污染環境等高危高風險的一個農藥之使用管理協助業者順利的輸消農產品至全世界有必要建立一個植物診療師的一個專業制度我想將植物診療師納入專業的職業及技術人員的範圍並對其業務責任管理以及植物診療機構設立等加以防範規範以有效的管理"},{"start":5369.838,"end":5370.618,"text":"好,我們謝謝羅景惠委員發言。"},{"start":5392.136,"end":5392.336,"text":"植物診療師法"},{"start":5421.376,"end":5438.567,"text":"各位同仁第一章的部分總則也跟五個版本跟修正動議跟行政院的提案都一樣所以我們就依照行政院提案以及五個版本及修正動議通過接下來第一條各位同仁"},{"start":5450.686,"end":5455.995,"text":"這一個部分陳素月有第三行的目的這個是"},{"start":5458.956,"end":5485.41,"text":"那邱議瑩委員的是木地後面還有植物並從和房子那個人本人的提案有跟行政院版本也有不一樣的地方羅金二委員是跟行政版本一樣那賴任委員他有修正中意是為全面提升對植物之保護第三行的部分增加一個對來請"},{"start":5489.694,"end":5497.225,"text":"行政部門先講好不好?我們的文字大概有一些略有增減其實意義是一樣啦"},{"start":5501.886,"end":5528.067,"text":"報告各位委員我們當初的文字是整個中整所有委員的版本對那個什麼邱委員的部分因為植物病蟲害防治的部分其實在前面強化動物的植物防疫檢疫這個部分就已經包含那對於楊委員的部分我們認為說增加一個高風險的為了農藥的管理使用管理可能會更全面所以我們中整所有委員的版本我們建議還是用行政院的提案的版本通過"},{"start":5529.028,"end":5530.869,"text":"行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請審議"},{"start":5553.866,"end":5574.142,"text":"沒有,那我們就如此做決議,謝謝來,第二條各位同仁第二條的部分行政院版本跟委員的版本以及修正動議的版本都一樣那我們是不是就以行政院以及委員提案跟修正動議通過好,謝謝"},{"start":5576.804,"end":5603.78,"text":"第三條我們其中有區有部分跟有部分不一樣我們還是先請行政院來請說說明跟委員說明邱委員的版本的第二項我們是一道行政院版本的第六條然後各委員的版本文字幾乎都是一致但是我們增加了並一本法領有植物診療師法多了並一本法所以呢所以我們還是建議行政院版本通過來各位同仁"},{"start":5606.518,"end":5627.49,"text":"請教一下齁,把它移到因為好像大家都都是另外把它放在第六條寫是不是?沒有放在第三條的第二項嘛就是第三條,委員您的第三條第二項大部分委員的版本都寫在第六條所以一樣的就是底下第二項的部分他們是列在第六條好,那這個請教一下委員齁那再請,還有沒有同仁要發言?"},{"start":5633.973,"end":5663.376,"text":"沒有發言之前我請教那個行政院 農業部並依本法有錄這四個字跟沒錄這四個字的意義差別是什麼因為其實我們當初內部討論以後我們認為是說並依本法的植物診療師證書為你看齁植物診療師證書是下面後面第幾章有特別再去描述怎麼去領那個證書職業證書所以我們認為說這個部分把它寫得更精準會更好一點"},{"start":5665.578,"end":5676.179,"text":"關於這個會不會有重複的問題因為你本來就是本法那你現在好像比較少條文裡面寫一個病醫本法是不是那個"},{"start":5677.712,"end":5680.654,"text":"請說明一下有寫病醫本法跟沒有寫有什麼差距嗎?我們還是詳實去討論清楚來請發言"},{"start":5703.109,"end":5718.405,"text":"主席跟各位人報告,個人請見,因為就是說如何去領取植物診療師證書在本法裡面後面都已經有規定了。所以其實如果沒有寫的話也不妨礙法律的明確性原則。所以如果沒有寫也是OK的。"},{"start":5720.475,"end":5742.968,"text":"對阿 各位同仁 那個行政部門因為我們審查這件法案很少說我本來就是我然後你還要告訴人家說依我去做什麼那這個邏輯很奇怪阿但是我們還是有一些法律用語所以阿特別請法務部來說明一下所以沒有寫是跟他們在執行當中不會有"},{"start":5745.99,"end":5772.989,"text":"主席我們是不是就把併一本法四個字把它刪除嗎?這樣是跟那個陳素月委員還有楊瓊瓊那就是依照陳素月的跟我的一樣嗎?那就依照陳素月委員跟楊瓊瓊的版本通過好嗎?那個併可能要留下來喔哪一個字?併一本法就是一本法拿掉就併要留下來"},{"start":5778.055,"end":5782.698,"text":"楊瓊瓔等24人擬具《植物診療師法草案》案"},{"start":5795.506,"end":5801.288,"text":"我建議豆浩病靈友植物診療師法草案：這樣比較清楚。這樣是不是更清楚?因為我們經濟委員會大家都是很認識。"},{"start":5812.353,"end":5831.025,"text":"那各位同仁那是不是就依照我們充分討論的文字通過就修正通過就是在格的後面保留行政部門的那個逗號就是格後面一個逗號然後再加一個病這樣子好不好好"},{"start":5833.744,"end":5837.666,"text":"拜託所有的今天參與的與會人士請你們將你們的專業拿出來"},{"start":5855.632,"end":5877.575,"text":"我們要制定一個法案是要可長可久而且要執行之的所以大家拿出你們的專業不用客氣禮貌就好好謝謝第三條我們就依照充分討論的修正文字通過那第四條的部分我們請行政部門請再說明各位委員除了那個邱議瑩版本有一點點文字不同其他委員的文字都一致"},{"start":5878.435,"end":5902.961,"text":"應填具。然後只有那個邱議瑩委員我們是寫填具申請書並檢附資格的證明文件。只有這個填具並檢附這個文件。那個是你們的版本啊。邱議瑩版本是說應具申請。你不要講錯了。我們是說應填具並檢附資格證明文件。這個部分是跟邱議瑩不一樣。所以有可能是漏字啦。我覺得那就照行政院跟各位委員的版本通過啊。"},{"start":5904.241,"end":5915.692,"text":"其他委員版本都一致應該是漏打了一個字那就依照這個謝謝謝謝邱議員委員就依照行政院版本陳素月版本楊瓊瓔版本羅天偉委員版本以及那任委員的修正動議通過好"},{"start":5923.76,"end":5946.715,"text":"來謝謝那第五條呢這個來請行政部門委員號我們的版本跟邱委員版本柔安委員版本跟那個賴委員版本是一致的那跟陳委員跟楊邱委員的版本不一致的是少了你們少了兩款的資格條件消極的資格條件我們是定在第五條的第一款跟第二款對於你一專業"},{"start":5948.556,"end":5973.846,"text":"專門職業及技術人員考試法規定撤銷那個考試及格資格這種人還有另外有故意犯罪行為有受一年以上有期徒刑以上刑事判決確定這種人我們原則上認為他的消極資格也不可以充任植物診療師所以增列了兩款的一個消極資格那其餘的內容其實文字內容實質內容都是跟所有委員的版本是一致的"},{"start":5975.387,"end":5978.212,"text":"好,你就是把...各位同仁,要不要發言?來,蔡議員"},{"start":5982.366,"end":6003.959,"text":"好謝謝主席那我想要請教第五條第一項一專門職業及技術人員考試經撤銷考試及格資格那是指說在這個法訂定之前有其他的考試還是單純指我們在今天的這個植物診療師法通過之後的植物診療師的考試"},{"start":6006.71,"end":6008.574,"text":"這個是只要曾經依照專門職業及技術人員考試法規定去撤銷的都算是?"},{"start":6016.864,"end":6035.66,"text":"所以不僅僅只是植物診療師的考試只要是用專門職業及技術人員考試法規定去拿要證照的這些人他被撤銷考試及格證資格的人一律都沒辦法來擔任植物診療師這是所有專門職業的法規裡面都是這樣定的"},{"start":6040.981,"end":6056.493,"text":" ﻏ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6086.275,"end":6088.396,"text":"這都是最新的?難怪念一下"},{"start":6097.403,"end":6118.647,"text":"你是第幾?第25法?什麼法?跟委員說明一下,專門職業技術人員的那個技術法裡面79條,19條裡面有規定說比如說你冒名頂替或者是偽造、變造、印考證件去考試,所以就會被取消你的那個什麼"},{"start":6119.087,"end":6139.155,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6143.256,"end":6163.204,"text":"那這個好像沒有一個時效比方說好我他如果有不同的次數比方說我第一次考試是作弊那表示未來他都會不能再充任這個植物診療師嗎?比方說就是兩種完全不同的考試的太陽我知道我正在找法官"},{"start":6165.854,"end":6172.599,"text":"主席,這個我順便提問一下好不好?等一下等一下,再一個一個好不好?現在是參與委員嗎?那你答好,你答好再換下一個,因為前面還有先一方委員"},{"start":6192.711,"end":6219.142,"text":"來剛剛委員說明的部分齁你不可以應考資格的部分齁在他的第19條第二項有規定說第二項冒名頂替的這些事由如果說這發現自日起五年內他不得應考試院舉辦或者是委託舉辦的各種考試這時間經過之後他就可以應考那所以這個部分他就不會有這個問題但是他後面是寫說經撤銷資格所以撤銷資格跟這個還是有點不一樣"},{"start":6221.144,"end":6248.21,"text":"所以他五年之內不得應考五年之後可以再應考可是你這樣的一個文字的架構就會像我剛剛講的他只要曾經有過被撤銷考試及格資格不管是幾年不管是第一次或第二次只要他曾經有被撤銷考試及格資格那就會回到第五條的法律效果不得充任植物診療師以充任者撤銷或廢止"},{"start":6249.837,"end":6268.806,"text":"以這樣的法條文字來說會變成說它包含的含涉的範圍很大主席我一併問因為是同樣的問題有沒有其他的相關的法也是用這樣的方式在訂定的可不可以舉一下其他的法的那個例子好不好"},{"start":6271.041,"end":6283.691,"text":"就對於他的這個具有些所謂的診療師或醫師或什麼樣要是有案因為犯了這些東西而他不能夠而不得充任的這個部分有沒有其他再舉其他的法律給我們看一下好不好"},{"start":6289.982,"end":6302.712,"text":"我們當初是參考公共衛生司法第五條、住產人員法第七條、專利司法第四條、計帳司法第四條、會計司法第六條去定這樣的一個消極資格。"},{"start":6304.79,"end":6306.471,"text":"蔡委員提出這條條文因為人民有這個權利 那他的衝擊會衝擊到哪裡"},{"start":6321.696,"end":6323.237,"text":"議員：立法院第11會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會審議"},{"start":6344.676,"end":6346.778,"text":"法務部跟考選部來 法務部先說明"},{"start":6358.524,"end":6364.49,"text":"主席,考選部也要說明一下。考選部。對、對、對、對。我們保護部先說,然後再來考選部。那我們大家來一起討論。來,請說明。保護部。是。農業部也請注意聽。是。跟主席、各位委員報告。"},{"start":6380.487,"end":6405.661,"text":"因為那個第五條他的規定是要規定說不得從人而且即使已從人也要撤銷或廢止因此這個是等於說對人民的工作權的一種限制或剝奪那這個對工作權的限制或剝奪因為影響到了這個憲法所保障人民的基本權利所以個人潛見的話確實在法律上有明明規定是會比較恰當那至於說"},{"start":6406.909,"end":6428.886,"text":"第1款的規定來講的話我不是很了解它的意思啦因為如果說我們參考那個計師法的規定的話它也是會有那個它是有那個規定說以考試法規定經撤銷或廢止考試及格資格那換句話說它是因為這一次的考試"},{"start":6429.787,"end":6442.961,"text":"：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會提供責任：一、繼續審查： sovere�公職委員會提供責任：立法院第11屆第2會提供責任：立法院第3會提供責任：立法院第4會提供責任：立法院第5會提供責任：立法院第6會提供責任：立法院第7會提供責任：立法院第8會提供責任：立法院第9會提供責任：立法院第10會提供責任：立法院第11會提供責任：立法院第12會提供責任："},{"start":6445.003,"end":6471.584,"text":"因為我們如果說要剝奪他的權利的話我們就必須要考慮到說第二十三條的這個比例原則就是說恰不恰當適不適當如果說他因為一次的違規我們就是就剝奪他這一次的資格就可以還是說往後餘生他通通都資格通通剝奪掉了那這樣的話符不符合這個憲法的這個比例原則好謝謝法務部的說明我們再請考選部來請可是這問題我還想問"},{"start":6475.003,"end":6475.87,"text":"來我們方司長謝謝"},{"start":6479.797,"end":6504.947,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好。那考選部這邊請針對中級考試法第19條做個補充說明。那我們19條規定是考生如果有考試前發現不具營考資格的話,我們都取消他營考資格。那如果說考試時發現的時候,我們就扣考。那如果說考試後榜試前發現者就不錄取。那如果說像今天講的是在考試及格後,"},{"start":6507.734,"end":6526.873,"text":"稍後我們發現,我們就會根據這個規定就是發現之日起五年內不得應考試、舉辦之考試或者委託舉辦之考試。那情況大概是冒名頂替,因為是委在後並招應考證明。還有一個是致死不具備應考資格。"},{"start":6527.193,"end":6556.152,"text":" ﻷ ﻷ ﻷ ﻷ"},{"start":6556.152,"end":6574.548,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6574.688,"end":6597.202,"text":"主席我們必須要說其實即便是剛才法務部的說法是說有可能會涉及到違憲的就是還有比例原則但是我們必須要看從過去以來到底這一條法因為在其他的專業人才的這個相關的考試國家考試裡面也定定的相同的標準"},{"start":6598.243,"end":6616.632,"text":"如果就是說因為其實在我們也知道在國營事業的這個考試規則裡面我們要防止舞弊那導致於後來在修刑法跟國營事業法裡面也有相關的疑義那所以我覺得在這種專業的專職的那個專業的技職人員的這個考試上面應該從嚴來審議"},{"start":6625.196,"end":6645.401,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6645.521,"end":6646.142,"text":"蘇清泉委員"},{"start":6663.066,"end":6677.849,"text":"我請教第五條的第一款你說一專門職業這個撤銷考試及格資格就是說他有冒名體體或者假造學歷等等結果考上了你要把它撤銷嘛"},{"start":6680.977,"end":6693.047,"text":"第二項有問題,業務上有關故意犯罪行為,受一年以上,什麼叫業務上有關的,這是誰判定啊?"},{"start":6695.949,"end":6715.022,"text":"第二款的部分是它執行植物診療師的業務上有關的故意犯罪的行為。如果說它是因為其他比如開車、過失、致人於死那些都不在這範圍裡。這個裡面因業務上有關的故意犯罪是要限於故意而且是跟植物診療師的業務有關。"},{"start":6719.525,"end":6741.661,"text":"責罪行為被受一年以上有期之刑之判決確定才會進來所以這個是要法院判對那你才能給他撤銷對你是撤銷不是委員你要講的是我們前面是說你不可以充任你不可以當植物植物診療師法那如果你當了植物診療師了之後那我會撤掉或廢止你的植物診療師的證書"},{"start":6746.52,"end":6761.334,"text":"這個那醫師法或是中醫西醫這個是很嚴重的問題那我們是有一個委員會來判定因為法院判的是法院判那這裡要不要要給你吊扣執照或者是吊銷執照或者是終身失效這個是"},{"start":6763.134,"end":6779.666,"text":"那個是非常非常的慎重的喔 那我們農業部本身有沒有這個能力跟你沒有有組織成組織一個committee 來做evaluation 來做這個這個怎麼講中文怎麼來來來做評估評核這個是這個是非常簡單喔"},{"start":6786.051,"end":6811.963,"text":"委員我要跟您說明的你剛剛說明的那種是像醫師他有一些倫理規範那需要特別去認定的這個是指犯罪行為其實在醫師一樣如果你是犯罪行為犯罪行為判定只有法院才能做判定判定他犯罪有期徒刑一年以上有期徒刑以上是判決確定之後我們確認如果跟他執行業務有關這時候才會撤掉他的植物診療師的證書"},{"start":6814.306,"end":6828.636,"text":"法院不會判吊扣,吊扣吊銷執照,它不會判,但是判刑期而已。 就是你們是依據法院有判例一年以上之後,你們才會去裁定是不是要撤銷,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":6828.636,"end":6837.842,"text":"是。現在蘇委員的意思就是說,你們要執行的時候,你有沒有這個能力,有沒有這個委員會的,誰去判定啊?"},{"start":6838.362,"end":6863.741,"text":"哦,要跟我也報告,這個在所有的施的,所有施法裡面的消極資格都有這樣規定制,差別是說罪名,罪名的差別。像有的是限制說,像那個不動產估價師他寫說不動產業務上有關詐欺、背信什麼,受有歧途刑以上6個月以上刑之判宣告確定者,所以其實在每個施法裡面都會去框"},{"start":6864.502,"end":6888.941,"text":"他有關的犯罪行為,被判處決定的話﹖ 因為農業部你講的跟基同鴨講﹖ 法院判決的就依法去做﹖ 那你們﹖ 法院不會判他吊銷﹖ 最後是要依據你們﹖ 農事所或者是農改廠有沒有辦法﹖ 有相關的專業人士可以組成這個﹖ 就是依據法院判決﹖ 以後你們有辦法成立一個委員會來徹銷這個植物診療﹖"},{"start":6891.943,"end":6905.151,"text":"包括那個蘇委員這邊提到就是說法院判決是一件事情你要撤銷是另外一件事情那我們法的依據就是說法院判的話我們就直接撤銷了就沒有委員會再去討論了沒有這個空間再去討論"},{"start":6906.55,"end":6914.075,"text":"那如果他是另外其他的案子,跟這個業務上模擬兩可有沒有相關的?"},{"start":6914.075,"end":6928.065,"text":"這個業務是植物診療師的業務。對,植物診療師有相關的他的一個業務。我跟你講醫師的處理怎麼處理。醫師如果法院判他三個月啦,緩刑多久啦?緩刑一年啦。"},{"start":6931.147,"end":6958.86,"text":"我們這個衛生部這邊還要再組一個委員會說這個人要不要跟著也是吊扣一年或吊銷一年那個是到時候會用行政訴訟的會審議審議的會在訴願的那個是很漫長喔所以要非常的慎重還是農業部有一個也是有一個委員會可以來處理這個事情因為"},{"start":6961.05,"end":6978.08,"text":"我只覺得這個法我們要慎重,因為這個法很重要也很好啊。我們一屆也不反對啊。好,那就是在第五條的部分呢,大家都有這個共識就是說我們還是資格要嚴格。"},{"start":6979.241,"end":6999.019,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6999.319,"end":7014.569,"text":"我領域法院的判決之後那回到你這邊來你誰去決定要不要撤銷他那你如果你剛剛部長講的是說整理法院判決一年以上我直接撤銷但是如果是"},{"start":7016.15,"end":7044.421,"text":"議員雖然他判定這樣子但是緩行的在不在內在不在內那這個第五條的部分我們是不是待會再讓他們再去再去討論一下最後我們再緩回來討論那你們也跟法務部跟那個考學部還在討論我建議其實在整個內容上寫的再更明確一點比如說剛剛你第一第一項的部分一專門職業技術等等你把那個再講更清楚一點你是要根據哪一個部分的"},{"start":7044.821,"end":7059.891,"text":" bicy 涉及到這個業務有關的還是說剛剛你講那個部分我覺得要把它定得更清楚。包括第二個業務上我認為你也把植物診療師那個東西在業務上寫得更清楚。我覺得這樣才會我覺得工作權的保障這塊事情還是要用更清楚的去定義比較妥當一點。"},{"start":7062.073,"end":7088.32,"text":"好那各位同仁我們第五條的部分經過充分討論方向有這個方向出來那文字要怎麼樣去修那請行政部門各位我們再思緒一下最後我們再訪回來你們趕快討論好因為這個第五條你有看到第19條跟第23條所以請你們做整體性的一個思考好我們接下來"},{"start":7089.62,"end":7108.237,"text":"先保留齁來第六暫保留來第六條第六條的部分齁那請行政部門請請做說明委員齁那個我們第六條版本其實跟那個楊委員羅委員跟那個所謂的那個那個賴委員的版本是一致的那"},{"start":7108.777,"end":7133.284,"text":"有關於邱委員跟楊委員裡面的第二項的那個部分第二項的部分我們那個部分是一列到第七條有關於植物診療師的業務我們是放在第七條裡面去規範這邊我們只是單純的規範你不得使用植物診療師或易使人誤認為植物診療師之名稱這個的部分以上"},{"start":7134.684,"end":7154.681,"text":"這個就是為什麼上一次我們也是很誠意等行政部門來就因為條序有差別那在這個後面的部分是列在第一款第二款是列在第七條行政院版本第七條那請教各位委員"},{"start":7155.862,"end":7172.483,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7172.623,"end":7201.655,"text":"第5條裡面的第1款、第2款、第3款在你們19條跟23條都有相關。好,請教各位同仁第6條的部分有陳素月委員跟楊炯宇委員我們所提的是直接將第7條列在第6條的款裡頭。那有羅廷偉委員跟賴瑞文的修正版本是行統行政院版本。那請教各位有沒有什麼意見?有沒有要發言?"},{"start":7202.535,"end":7221.312,"text":"如果沒有本席的同意在第7條我們討論後面的這個第一款第二款那我們第6條的部分是不是就依照行政版本羅廷惠委員版本跟賴瑞榮的修正版本來通過好嗎的文字通過好來第6條然後來第二張"},{"start":7222.853,"end":7224.994,"text":"第7條行政部門請做說明"},{"start":7240.444,"end":7256.122,"text":"第7條部分所有委員其實實質內容幾乎都是一致的實質內容那其實我們第7條第一項是在講植物診療師的專屬業務是放在第一項非專屬業務是放在第二項那第三項是特別去強調簽證的業務的內涵是如何"},{"start":7259.286,"end":7274.206,"text":"跟楊委員齁、邱陳委員剛剛講的你們放在第6條的第二項的部分我們是在第7條的第1項。齁第7條的第1項那非領有植物診療師證書者不得執行植物有害生物鑑定報告植物診"},{"start":7274.927,"end":7301.96,"text":"疫病從害之診斷書防治意見書及相關植物健康證明文件之簽證業務但機關購,特別跟委員強調我們增加了購字依法規執行前開文件之簽證者不再此限這是比較大的不同我們家的購字還有我們的不再重複文件執行前開文件之簽證者文字更精簡一點以上好各位委員"},{"start":7303.783,"end":7330.003,"text":"郭委員在還沒發言以前我是會請那個法務部因為陳素月委員跟本期的提案有不一樣我是跟行政部門是一樣是非啦那這個陳素月委員提的是未是不是說明一下他有沒有什麼差別法律用語有沒有專用的這個這個文字請說說明非領有跟未領有有沒有什麼差別來有沒有什麼差別"},{"start":7335.567,"end":7335.787,"text":"拜託請審查。"},{"start":7358.635,"end":7369.89,"text":"那個法務部啊那個機構的構在機關後面在公安後加一個構它的差別是什麼我先跟委員說明吼像我們的試驗單位就是機構法務部說明一下來"},{"start":7372.334,"end":7399.162,"text":"跟主席報告就是說機關在行政程序法裡面有特別的規定它是那個可以獨立行使資權但是夠的話它會跟機關會不一樣就是說它可能包含了行政法人還有它可能會包含了一些那個不具有機關性質的這種組織所以機構的話它本身跟機關會有一個很大的差別所以說像那個機關的話它的定義是規定在行政程序法裡面"},{"start":7399.582,"end":7402.023,"text":"拜託部長解釋一下。我跟委員說明,就是在農業部下面的所有試驗改良場所都是機構。那三級機關的話就像農糧署那些屬於機關。"},{"start":7424.693,"end":7448.381,"text":"好,那各位同仁我們加上剛剛經過法務部以及那個部長的說明講很清楚因為農業部的也不能講子公司子部門非常的多因為這是所屬單位啦所屬單位才正確因為本期來自這個"},{"start":7453.684,"end":7476.596,"text":"審議會過來那因為以前的農林廳他就是設置很多所以我對於農會部都非常的關心這也是以農立國台灣很重要的好那這個夠我們是不是就依照行政部門加上那另外來請教各位同仁另外在文字方面本期看了我們有包括行政部門的五個版本跟"},{"start":7477.978,"end":7490.712,"text":"本院委員的修正中意是跟行政部門一樣那在這個整個文字包括了在現場邱議瑩等這一些那有沒有其他同仁有沒有要再說明有沒有再發言因為比如說在還沒有"},{"start":7495.851,"end":7523.46,"text":"同學舉手的時候是不是部長你再說明一下因為委員提案也是很用心喔幕僚那就是比如說像邱議員有提到說前項專屬的業務跟你們沒有的這樣有沒有什麼差別如果文字上去是不是會更精準有沒有這個必要以及本席在第五款裡頭你們是直接啦就其他法規規定"},{"start":7524.64,"end":7534.707,"text":"由植物診療師辦理的業務本期是有特別在將植物有害生物鑑定報告就是在第5條裡頭植物病重害的診療"},{"start":7539.631,"end":7562.746,"text":"直接說明項目、診斷書、防治意見書及相關植物健康證明文件及簽證事項這個明定。然後第五、第六款裡頭我們特別說其他依法令因為你可能會思緒沒有那麼清楚所以如果沒有列在上面的我們就其他依法令規定由這個"},{"start":7564.767,"end":7591.852,"text":"植物診療師辦理之業務。這樣子是不是比較完整?來請行政部委員。那個,呃,趙委員您的詢問齁,我們這樣,因為之前有討論的部分,您,比如您的第五款喔,生物鑑定報告植物疫病重拍診斷書嘛齁,這些東西很多人會認為跟前面我們第七條行政院版本的第一項,齁,我們有一個生物鑑定報告,然後診斷書防治意見書,那個是專屬業務,有人會疑惑說這兩邊的文字有沒有?"},{"start":7594.633,"end":7611.425,"text":" ﻏ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7615.949,"end":7638.006,"text":"最後第六款的部分呢?第六款的部分就是您寫的是法令嘛,我們寫的是法規嘛。那我們基本上來講我們比較限制是在法規。就是法律加法律具體明確授權的法規命令,裡面明定植物診療師可以辦理的業務。那令有人認為說一個行政規則就可以了,那我們認為嚴謹一點還是應該要到法規。"},{"start":7641.229,"end":7645.511,"text":"就是法律跟法律說... 就是法律跟法律說... 那你為什麼要改這樣子呢?我們認為說他執行依法執行職務,我們平常依法執行職務都認為他還是要有法律授權的可以,要明確性才會... 那你法律當然就一定有啊。法律授權啊。"},{"start":7668.52,"end":7695.041,"text":"法律是依職權我訂的行政規則他就可以去執行了那我認為說因為我們後面還是有相關的約束規範比如說他要做開診療宿他後面還有一些相關的法則的規定所以我們認為這個地方還是希望是在法院可是你以前就是沒有法律所以才要訂這個法嘛那你對不對再思考一下來那這第6款再想一下齁跟那個法務部門再想一下來陳立法院委員"},{"start":7696.782,"end":7711.014,"text":"我覺得是不是要再解釋得更清楚就是說我們現在所訂的法規到底我們的層級還有我們所列的可能有到什麼樣的程度跟你所講的法令是比較簡單然後法令比較大比較廣"},{"start":7714.377,"end":7740.128,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7740.228,"end":7740.889,"text":"行政院函請審議"},{"start":7757.387,"end":7757.527,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":7775.162,"end":7805.162,"text":" ﻏ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7805.162,"end":7833.865,"text":" ﻏ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏�"},{"start":7834.099,"end":7834.62,"text":"就沒有授權?"},{"start":7834.62,"end":7844.412,"text":"不用授權,由我們農業部本身一個行政規...行政命令下去就可以了。他會比較寬啦。行政規則不用... 這個其實齁..."},{"start":7848.168,"end":7874.32,"text":"因為我們為什麼會這麼慎重因為植物診療師也是有史以來我們大家藍綠白都很關心的因為現在的社會環境變遷生活方式不一樣現在這個植物對於人民來講很重要那所以我們要協助人民那你如果就是說如果是法令當然它是慎重其事"},{"start":7875.06,"end":7893.865,"text":" ﻏ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7893.985,"end":7918.909,"text":"第7條跟第1條又有會原來的終止目標精神又有相衝突當然我們立法是必須要行政部門可以去執行之這個當然能夠落實是最重要那是不是請那個法務部法令跟法規在他們的當然執行他現在愛的是法規那跟法令你是不是再說明一下"},{"start":7920.967,"end":7922.468,"text":"檢察院長檢察院長檢察院長檢察院長檢察院長檢察院長檢察院長檢察院長檢察"},{"start":7942.025,"end":7958.975,"text":"稍後依法規,我們會審法規,你會回到行政程序法,行政程序法依法規都是依到那個法規命令,沒有到令,沒有到行政規則。但是如果長官,如果業務認為要擴大OK,但是寫到法令,但是令,令是包含行政規則,不是只有法規命令。"},{"start":7960.597,"end":7979.033,"text":"我們平常在寫法令的話是行政規則你們是這樣寫我的理解的話是法規是法律跟行政規則比較過法令是法律跟行政運營我們平常在內部的法制作業事務不是這樣講法制作業事務這樣講主委先保留下來好了最後再處理啦讓他們討論啦讓他們討論一下好不好"},{"start":7980.134,"end":8007.94,"text":"那經過我們委員齁大家想使第七條法令跟法規其他的部分我們就一直把它限縮待會緩為比較那個其他的文字齁只是行政部門的版本齁跟那六個委員的版本就是把我們其他三、四個委員的版本有做調整啦內容方向是一致的齁好那我們第七條齁再保留一下你們就針對法規跟法令的部分請再研討一下待會我們再回來齁"},{"start":8009.18,"end":8020.594,"text":"第8條的部分請行政部門說明委員除了陳素月委員有一些文字差別其他委員的版本都跟行政院版本一致"},{"start":8024.026,"end":8038.167,"text":"內容幾乎是一致的陳素月委員是大專院校我們是寫社有農業相關科系所學位要用行政院這個部分"},{"start":8039.248,"end":8042.45,"text":"農業生產農運銷合作社農業生產農運銷合作社農業販賣農業生產業"},{"start":8069.128,"end":8097.555,"text":"高農那不算大專院校嗎?要校園啊,要校園,要大專的院校,校園。教委應該要用農業相關科技所,學位。對,應該是要用這個啦。所以我的意思是說,如果他設定在大專,就是高農的東西啦。就是你高農也是啦。你們行政院版本農業相關的就是了啦。高農的也是嘛。高農不是高中喔,他不是大專院校喔。"},{"start":8099.196,"end":8099.216,"text":"第8條"},{"start":8128.49,"end":8140.924,"text":"經過這樣討論,就是行政院版本跟邱議委員、楊瓊瓔委員、羅天惠委員、賴瑞文委員的修正動議一樣。那我們依照這個行政院相同通過,好嗎?對,好。 OK,好,謝謝。"},{"start":8142.945,"end":8163.971,"text":"好來繼續我們第9條請做說明委員吼我們的版本跟那個邱議瑩版本羅委員版本跟那個賴委員版本是一致的那跟陳委員跟那個楊瓊瑩委員您不一致的部分我們做個說明第一項的部分有關於職業登記的部分我們是擇一而不是用主要你主要的職業"},{"start":8165.111,"end":8180.572,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":8180.792,"end":8201.702,"text":"就是於一定期間內完成繼續教育我們加了一個取得積分並辦理職業執照的更新這是我們增加的文字就是說繼續教育之外還要取得積分辦理職業執照的更新然後再來就是第三項的授權大家都大致一致"},{"start":8202.142,"end":8223.878,"text":"只是因為我們前面加了一個執照更新嘛所以我們授權加了一個更新還有一個證明文件的取得那個文字有一點有的人叫取得證明文件有人叫證明文件的取得這樣的差別其餘實質內容大家都是一致的除了第一項職業登記的措手有不同其他的實質內容都是一致的"},{"start":8225.208,"end":8243.569,"text":"各位同仁每一件就依照行政院版本帳啊有 我有一千我請問你一下喔本級的提案那個是病啊你是棋病跟棋有什麼差別沒有差別沒有差別為什麼一定要照你的"},{"start":8244.807,"end":8246.629,"text":"法律文字用語看怎麼樣啦。"},{"start":8263.983,"end":8289.221,"text":"不是,這個大家討論好,因為這個...好,那我們再抽筋唸一下。那另外等一下,另外那位委員的他是有把他定時間。那這個呢?這個什麼差別?第九條。你們行政部門不知道選中人已經列出來的提案的委員,你要說服人家,他的提案哪裡不行,還是他的也是得還是可。"},{"start":8292.143,"end":8314.38,"text":"有阿,於一定期間我們的第三項也有於一定期間阿因於一定期間內完成繼續教育阿第三項植物診療師職業因於一定期間我們也是一定期間阿之一定期間阿因於一定期間阿那是要完成阿我們也是要完成阿完成繼續教育"},{"start":8321.386,"end":8323.151,"text":"他只是多了一個語取的職業執照後。"},{"start":8325.631,"end":8352.432,"text":"對德於全國有沒有執行植物這一段那這個地方我們已經寫在第二項您看一下我們的第二項像植物診療師予取的職業執照後德於全國執行業務這個我們獨立在第二項你獨立在第二項那你那個他的後半段對你把後半段是拿在你的第二項但是你的第一項裡頭這樣有沒有矛盾這一定期間"},{"start":8353.833,"end":8365.563,"text":"課程、內容、積分、什麼什麼的。完全繼續。 稍微瑞蓉沒有意見啦,就照這樣子那個的意思。 不是啦,我們有提出,我們開會就是要討論啦。 對啊。 我們還是要去理清楚有沒有什麼爭議。 委員第1項。"},{"start":8370.247,"end":8393.086,"text":"請說第一項是在說我們要去哪邊做職業登記那賴委員的第二項就是我們行政版本的第二項跟第三項我們把它拆成兩項前半段是第二項可以在全國執行職業務的是在第二項第三項是說要辦繼續教育取得積分辦理職業執照的更新"},{"start":8394.447,"end":8422.158,"text":"這也跟賴委員的版本是一致的你把它調去調啦最後一項我再請教主要跟擇一差別主要要先去判定如果他有兩三個處所怎樣去判定主要比如以前我們內部就討論過他在台北職業兩天在新竹職業兩天那哪一個算是主要所以就很難判定最後大家認為說我們要尊重植物診療師的那個職業自由看他"},{"start":8423.239,"end":8433.037,"text":"選哪一個他要選哪一個縣市他因為他台北新竹都有我們就讓他自己選擇擇一去向那個直轄市縣市主管去做職業的登記"},{"start":8434.44,"end":8455.501,"text":"所以換句話說就是只能夠選擇一個縣市對可是他可以執行全國對他只要職業登記就是不用每一個縣市都登記你只要登記一個就可以全國這個本席在提供一個意見這我是認同這樣子但是可能這往後還是會有這個問題比如說我們現在建築師"},{"start":8458.677,"end":8475.384,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":8475.524,"end":8475.644,"text":"拜訪問候"},{"start":8494.849,"end":8499.83,"text":"您現在講的這個部分已經有一點太遠了因為現在植物診療師根本人都還不夠不要講主工會各個地方的農會或者是合作社他們都有這樣的需求"},{"start":8516.474,"end":8543.102,"text":"那我覺得應該讓比如說非常懂稻米的知道在稻米的這個專作區裡頭去協助的懂番茄的懂這些玉米雜糧的讓這樣的診療師在他們的這個主要擇醫的一個農會或者是一個地區去全力的利用他的專業去協助我覺得目前應該是你們的利益農業部的利益應該是先這樣啦"},{"start":8544.464,"end":8549.179,"text":"那你們現在講到說什麼去全國去什麼公會的那個部分有一點太遠了啦。"},{"start":8550.543,"end":8573.969,"text":"我們是不是就照現在的文字上的部分去討論就好了,好不好?不是,這個本席補充一下齁,現在我們這個診療師不是說都約束在農會裡面,不是這樣,這是大家一起來協助。這是大家一起來協助喔,所以為什麼他要承諾去登記可以跨全國去職業喔,這你要弄清楚喔。我知道。"},{"start":8575.149,"end":8602.261,"text":"那個本期只是提醒啦因為其他的有這樣子的內容他不是只有農會喔你要注意喔因為既然有license之後他不是只有礦災農會只是大家合作好來那剛剛所提出的我們也請行政部門喔來做這個這個這個瞭解齁好那第九條的部分請教各位委員"},{"start":8604.363,"end":8608.329,"text":"第九條的部分請教各位委員沒有意見行政部門"},{"start":8614.386,"end":8618.71,"text":"第9條的部分我們就照剛剛所討論的修正文字通過接下來第10條的部分"},{"start":8641.428,"end":8664.967,"text":"第10條的部分來行政部門請做說明跟委員報告其實所有的所有委員的版本的實質內容都是一致但是有些文字有一點落差跟委員報告一下就是第10條的第二款我們是行政部門是不只廢紙職業診療師職業執照我們還有撤銷因為我們剛剛前面不只撤銷撤銷跟廢紙是在一起的所以我們甄列了"},{"start":8665.888,"end":8690.314,"text":"所謂的經徹銷或廢止這是第二款的那個部分然後再來就是第四款的部分就是有客觀事實認不能執行業務的部分我們的委員跟楊委員的部分就是你的第四款跟第三項去整合怎麼去認定它無法客觀上無法執行去執行業務我們的做法目前是由慈霞市縣市主管機關去邀請"},{"start":8691.134,"end":8717.581,"text":"相關的專科醫師跟植物診療師本人跟學者植物診療師跟學者專家去組成小組去認定用這樣的機制去判定它可不可以有事實上客觀事實上又不能執行植物的形式那這樣的體力是最新的所有相關技師的一個做法都是用這樣的最新的體力去做調整以上好請教各位同仁"},{"start":8720.029,"end":8746.746,"text":"有沒有要發言?你有的時候本席的提案是經主管機關認定資齁那現在行政部門你們是把你的第四款的部分齁這個經執轄市啊縣市啊什麼的跟委員的第三項的部分融合在一起對所以就是說你直接把它就是連地方政府都把它納進來那本席要請教就是說這樣子的細項跟"},{"start":8749.821,"end":8766.203,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":8766.945,"end":8767.245,"text":"行政院函請審議"},{"start":8785.839,"end":8787.52,"text":"第11條除了陳委員跟楊委員之外其他版本都一致"},{"start":8801.73,"end":8828.626,"text":"委員版本有不同的地方是因為我們增加了一個授權的規定最後一項對於停業歇業有相關的事項的一個部分我們認為需要一個辦法來定這個相關技術上的問題比如說你要有什麼樣的程序要檢附怎樣的文件需要授權另外定一個辦法來處理這樣的停業歇業的事情以上就最後一項"},{"start":8830.442,"end":8852.255,"text":"好請教各位同仁各位同仁有沒有發言沒有發言本期請教第一本期所提案由主管由主管機關費職那你們是"},{"start":8855.703,"end":8859.408,"text":"由原法執業執照機關被子是誰發的誰來廢"},{"start":8866.082,"end":8884.87,"text":"那現在這個license會誰發呢?原職業執照。剛剛一講不是擇一嗎?對。他不是擇一,他到哪一個直轄市縣市主管機關去申請職業執照。那有發生這樣的形式是原。那這個什麼差別?有主管機關,不是就是原?主管機關很多,直轄市縣市很多,每個縣市都是主管機關。"},{"start":8886.21,"end":8907.659,"text":"當然啊。對。那我們告訴他原發照的那個資料啊。原發照本來就是主管機關啊。不是。那個主管機關在地方為縣市政府。那我們剛才有一條是說擇一去登記嘛。那擇一的時候就會有不同的縣市嘛。對不對。那就是說原來發照的那個單位就是由原來發照的地方去撤銷。"},{"start":8908.903,"end":8923.074,"text":"發照的地方是在新北市政府那就是新北市政府去撤銷他的執照啊那就是原來發照的主管機關不是隨便所有的主管機關都可以去撤銷啊他發照的地方是在新北所以就新北去撤銷嘛請說明一下"},{"start":8943.773,"end":8955.676,"text":"主席還有委員報告確實就是說他那個主管機關本來是有中央跟地方的差異那如果說只有寫那個地方主管機關的話就可能會比較不夠那麼明確因為主管機關也包含農業部"},{"start":8959.577,"end":8960.178,"text":" ﹝中文字幕提供﹞"},{"start":8981.331,"end":8984.433,"text":"第11條各位同仁有委員的提案我們是會經過討論就以行政院版本通過"},{"start":8995.655,"end":9023.201,"text":"來那個蘇清泉委員我請教部長齁您現在獸醫您怎麼管理我看這個植物診療師的法是你們兩大王牌一個會動的經濟動物的你們是用獸醫師來歸紛那個植物診療師我看你們要負他很高的責任包括將來的用藥精準診斷還有農藥的管理等等好像都全部要"},{"start":9027.635,"end":9045.275,"text":"他最主要是只有簽證而已,其他都是在協助,不一樣,不是說農藥一定是由他來管理,這個會誤解。他的開業的地方,一些賣農資材的農藥的一些點,他們都可以登記在那裡呢?他們也可以開業呢?是不是?"},{"start":9045.275,"end":9045.416,"text":"沒有。"},{"start":9046.368,"end":9067.269,"text":"如果診療師要開賣農藥的話,他要一、要取得另外農藥的一個販賣的一個辦法。這是兩件事情,不是說你診療師就可以去賣農藥。這不行的喔。那他們做精準的診斷。對,那是來協助我們農民做精準的診斷。那他們要負什麼相對的責任?"},{"start":9068.903,"end":9074.226,"text":"他們得到什麼報償?我後面有一些收費的。好,那你現在授意是農業部發證照嘛,發授意是執照嘛,對不對?"},{"start":9082.332,"end":9083.292,"text":"農業部發嘛,你發嘛,對不對?"},{"start":9083.292,"end":9093.616,"text":"那他們要在各縣市要登,譬如說他開受益的診所。他是在到縣市政府去登錄。職業的執照,那個農業部這邊是發證書,受益證書,然後職業的話是由地方政府在發職業的執照。 所以地方政府農業局農業處來還?"},{"start":9108.442,"end":9136.51,"text":"是不是這樣?然後他要加入地方的工會。工會就各縣市不一樣嘛。然後再有一個全聯會嘛。那你這個植物診療師你也要用這個模式來做嗎?植物診療師跟獸醫師法不一樣的地方是我們一個地方來登記以後他是全國可以執業的。這兩個是不一樣的。所以你講的不太一樣喔?"},{"start":9137.449,"end":9165.268,"text":"他現在是醫療科的證書要登記在屏東還是在高雄但是全省都可以照喔對那是不一樣的喔對喔這個那醫我跟你報告我們醫師現在以前也是很嚴格喔現在是你如果是拿到醫師證書為何不發的你登記開業是在屏東衛生局然後你加入屏東縣醫師公會"},{"start":9167.199,"end":9167.219,"text":"拜訪問"},{"start":9183.305,"end":9183.906,"text":"這個真的要討論清楚"},{"start":9213.12,"end":9215.122,"text":"陳素月等 17人擬具 «植物診療師法草案案 案 》案"},{"start":9235.2,"end":9236.481,"text":"稍微有病菌"},{"start":9265.34,"end":9289.697,"text":"突然之間,他不喝水。他都沒水。庭館都大雨。所以其實現在是很多樣。為什麼我們認為說植物診療師很重要。所以我也認為說在一開始,我們在還沒有那麼多這樣的一個專業人士來進入這個植物診療師的時候,我們確實需要去過去。可是當如果"},{"start":9290.819,"end":9309.938,"text":"我們到了某一個程度我們鼓勵大家嘛因為我們一定要設很多的這些所謂訓練然後相關的這些學習的這樣的一個包括大專院校這樣的一個機制所以當我們的人才夠的話那當然我們就要希望是分區嘛這樣你也還夠得了"},{"start":9311.179,"end":9339.319,"text":"所以我覺得這有循序漸進,我們要不要把這個寫在我們的立法議席裡面。確實大家會擔心嘛,你一個人要怎麼看故事那麼多,如果我們沒有訂好,未來如果人數多的話,大家還可以到處跑,那是不是會有所謂的有衝撞的狀況。那我們是不是就把它寫清楚,就是說在一開始什麼樣的一個狀態之下,然後未來又是什麼樣的狀態,我們就要做分區的一個所謂登錄的機制。"},{"start":9340.8,"end":9350.782,"text":"是不是可以這樣戰鬥解決大家現在的擔憂啦?因為現在怕法過了之後好像就是這個完全的授權可是這個還要好幾年啊"},{"start":9352.073,"end":9379.94,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":9380.04,"end":9380.06,"text":"拜託請審議"},{"start":9399.944,"end":9416.672,"text":"好,那個謝謝那個委員的一個提醒跟建議齁那我想整個的植物診療師以食物來講因為產區的關係一定跨線不管怎麼樣以後可能會有跨線的部分另外一個可能就是很特殊的作物的這些病蟲害"},{"start":9417.432,"end":9442.841,"text":" ﻏ ﻏ ﻏ"},{"start":9443.879,"end":9464.634,"text":"我建議是不是部長把剛剛講這些東西也把它放入到立法的議席裡面好不好?就是說這樣的整體的考量是因為植物診療師他的特殊性的需要,所以我們這樣整體考量。那如果未來有產生其他一些變化的時候,我們會再有新的一些好不好?好,我們把它放在那個立法的議席裡面寫,謝謝。好,那針對第11條還沒有委員要發言?"},{"start":9466.111,"end":9489.902,"text":"這個就是我們經濟委員會我們所有的委員都很努力而且很理性討論而且要制定一個新法不是看目前你一定要看未來到底是怎麼樣因為這個在哪一個單一選擇登記然後未來是全國22縣市都可以去執業的情況之下的確你行政部門要怎樣去管控"},{"start":9490.502,"end":9490.803,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":9813.998,"end":9814.019,"text":"獲批"},{"start":9896.118,"end":9897.42,"text":"好,我們繼續開會請回座請各政黨找委員回來"},{"start":9927.007,"end":9948.226,"text":"現在是第11條啊?啊?啊?11條呢?剛剛那個都可以嗎?好,好,來。我們第11條就照行政院的這個文字。"},{"start":9953.032,"end":9954.373,"text":"通過那立法議席請待會再補上來。"},{"start":9978.339,"end":9978.839,"text":"行政院函請審議"},{"start":10003.782,"end":10028.36,"text":"主要職業機構所在地其實意思都是一樣的因為我們前面已經講說是他擇依據登記職業登記所以我們用職業登記處所的所在地作為他的加入工會的一個依據以上好請叫第12條就針對來針對那個工會那個部分職業登記處所"},{"start":10033.939,"end":10044.626,"text":"獲得多不一樣大家的文字都一樣啊所在地跟職業登記處所在地你是增加增加職業登記處"},{"start":10047.73,"end":10064.898,"text":"處、所,增加這幾個字嘛,是不是?委員其實您的版本也是搭配你前面的版本,因為你搭配前面是主要職業機構所在地,所以那這邊就寫所在地。我們這邊是會寫得更清楚,就是你去職業登記處,你去登記的那個處所。"},{"start":10065.638,"end":10094.537,"text":"是意義是一樣但是請教一下植物診療師職業職業他本來就是在他的所在地那還要再寫這些文字嗎還要再寫職業登記處所這五個字委員因為你職業我們登記一個處所職業是全國職業所以很多人會說你職業的那個時候所以我們要特別去強調職業的登記是登記的那個處所"},{"start":10095.538,"end":10095.845,"text":"審議。"},{"start":10096.327,"end":10117.224,"text":"這樣才不會有誤解那你這樣子的說法就是說如果未來他加入工會他比如說他在屏東職業那他加入工會那他在這個台中職業也加入工會是這個樣子嗎?我跟委員說明齁就是你登記擇一就擇一去登記嘛這個就我剛剛跟您說的齁跟建築師不一樣喔建築師你要加入我的工會你才可以當職業"},{"start":10125.911,"end":10151.128,"text":"我只是告訴你們當然他們是社團裡頭他們自己的約束點現在人家已經有走公會這樣走那未來會不會導致這樣的衝突提供給你們好 來這個第12條的部分各位同仁我們是不是就依照行政院的版本通過"},{"start":10153.021,"end":10168.611,"text":"還有邱議瑩委員還有羅靜惠委員跟那個賴瑞委員修正動議好謝謝第12條第13條請行政部門請說明跟所有委員的版本其實都是一致的"},{"start":10169.031,"end":10198.485,"text":"那我跟楊委員這個部分特別做個說明您的第二項裡面其內容由中央主管機關定之跟第三項說於本法施行細則定之這個規定我們是把它整合在我們的行政院的部門的第三項第三項所以我們整個所有的授權都集中在第三項然後我們就是由中央主管機關公告之我們把它用公告的方式來做處理那實質的內容幾乎都是一致的"},{"start":10198.905,"end":10223.553,"text":"以上請教各位同仁沒意見沒意見我請教一個專業比較不是那麼專業問題那個第二項那個診療記錄應以中文製作那所有你們的那個病蟲害的品項你全部都是有翻譯成中文嗎還是怎麼樣"},{"start":10225.288,"end":10251.957,"text":"您們這個寫法是比如說它的診療記錄類似像看病的病歷嘛。醫生有的病歷的病名會是用英文寫的。那你這裡特別寫用中文製作的話是不是它所有的病蟲害的品項名它全部都會應該都有翻譯成中文。我們跟委員說明就是我們未來會相關的病蟲害的名稱我們會用中文但是瓜奧會用他的學名來呈現用這種方式。"},{"start":10255.039,"end":10273.695,"text":"請教本席的提案就請教說我們那個因為現在保存的方式跟以往保存的方式跟未來保存的方式它差距很大所以這個就針對於這個年限的部分你們現在初步"},{"start":10274.929,"end":10276.831,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會提供的資料"},{"start":10299.914,"end":10325.952,"text":"因為他會 戲劇一直變變變 那你要有根源去找 那你們預估你們的保存年限會怎麼做啊?我們內部初步討論大概是五年啦 不過這個部分還可以因為我們在最後一項有寫到就是相關的保存年限由中央主管機關公告嘛 我是定知你是公告公告就是說你要不管你是做實行的細則的話 最後都會公告 所以我們用公告這兩個字去處理"},{"start":10328.099,"end":10356.73,"text":"那我就也建議喔因為我們經常要資料就是沒資料那所以如果是五年我覺得還是太短你們可能可以再去討論看看啦這個是授權你們自己但是我們也就是說現在的方式有很多你們要這個 AI 我想謝謝委員召委的提醒喔那我想因為現在很多資料都是數位化所以數位化以後的時間可以更長可以更長喔所以我們在"},{"start":10357.691,"end":10383.353,"text":"後面在公告的時候我們會再針對委員的建議我們去做一個更詳細的對啦因為我們看到全世界人家的資料他都已經原斷我們自己上去找都有那我們如果定一個法最後你們公告只有5年這可能會被人家覺得邏輯很奇怪所以我特別提點這一點來請教各位針對於第13條有沒有意見文字"},{"start":10385.293,"end":10390.255,"text":"第14條請行政部門說明第14條說委員的部門的委員的版本都是一致的相同"},{"start":10405.586,"end":10432.495,"text":"第14條陳素月的有一個我我國的我那還有一個就是通報中央主管機關那內容的有那個照片那邱議瑩、楊瓊瑩以及羅天鵝委員是跟行政院版本一樣所以行政部門你們不要隨便打因為這裡都有錄音錄影好不好要互相尊重主席是很有耐性的我告訴你們"},{"start":10434.036,"end":10459.053,"text":"好請問各位同仁有沒有意見沒有我們就依照行政院版本邱議委員版本楊瓊委員版本羅庭委員版本的文字通過好第15條第15條來行政部門因為都跟行政部門一樣我們是不是依照五個版本以及修正版本通過好第15條第16條行政部門請說明"},{"start":10462.535,"end":10476.453,"text":"第16條幾乎委員的版本都一致只有大概只有素月陳委員的部分他寫多了一個天災事變那其實我們認為說對於病重害防治的事項都有遵從主管機關指揮的義務以上"},{"start":10478.115,"end":10505.98,"text":"好 謝謝各位同仁有沒有意見沒有意見我們就依照因為這個天災勢變現在的社會沒想到都跑出來還是廣泛一點比較好所以我們就依照如果各位有沒有意見我們就依照沒有在發言我們就依照行政院版本邱議員委員版本楊俊明委員版本羅定偉委員版本還有這個賴瑞文委員的修正動議文字通過"},{"start":10508.061,"end":10524.989,"text":"第17條請行政院這個部分就是有提案的委員有邱議瑩委員、羅定惠委員還有賴瑞榮委員跟行政院版本的文字通過各位同仁"},{"start":10526.794,"end":10553.659,"text":"第18條請行政部門說明第18條委員的條文幾乎都是一致有差別是在手具這邊我們加一個必要時的進入植物診療師職業機構加一個必要時這三個字那來請教你還有後面還有一個加以啦好來那請教各位同仁有沒有要發言"},{"start":10557.301,"end":10578.336,"text":"苗發言本席請教你那個必要時跟得我們的提案是得你必要時那誰決定必不必要阿你得不是就可嗎那你不是在執行過程更好更彈性嗎有沒有什麼差別對不對你怎麼自己拔自己的啦你怎麼這麼好這麼可愛請教"},{"start":10582.405,"end":10604.476,"text":"我想我們剛才討論吼就是其實就像這如王昭惠所說的得的話其實就是含了必要的時候就可以進去的意思所以我們也可以把必要是拿掉這得嘛吼這個陳素月委員、邱議瑩委員還有本席的委員吼這三個那另外就是你特別要要求一個五年內或五年內"},{"start":10608.7,"end":10626.949,"text":"那這個不是自己擬的。我們的版本委員的版本沒有五年內。有那個邱議瑩委員是五年內。本席跟陳素月委員有邱議瑩委員是五年內。陳素月委員"},{"start":10632.472,"end":10642.459,"text":"那委員是修正版本是跟你一樣的。羅天惠跟你一樣的。我跟陳素月委員是沒有那個五年。五年的基準是為什麼?請做說明。"},{"start":10650.119,"end":10668.048,"text":"來請說明跟委員報告一下齁當初18條在內部討論的時候齁因為畢竟是要進入一個私藏域因為植物診療師職業機構的部分所以那時候為了擔心有太限制人民的權利義務所以那時候加了必要時跟五年內這幾個條件這是後來討論認為說要兩個之間做個平衡"},{"start":10673.19,"end":10684.12,"text":"因為畢竟是一個私人場域的部分禁具所以委員如果認為說五年內如果不需要那我們也可以刪除各位同仁因為現有或五年內那個那個法務部是不是說明一下"},{"start":10701.667,"end":10714.435,"text":"我們再次強調就是說在執行方面是要協助人民而且讓你們行政部門得執行你這個五年有沒有什麼依據你不要三年不要六年"},{"start":10716.454,"end":10734.672,"text":"主席、各位委員報告因為基本上主管機關在進行稽查取締的行為本身是一種行政調查行為但這個行政調查行為如果要進入私領域的常域裡面的話他就必須要注意到可能會妨害到私人的隱私權"},{"start":10736.133,"end":10762.61,"text":"市政隱私權是憲法22條所保障的基本權利所以它必須要有相當程度的要件以及相當的節制所以先前在那個警察的臨檢在那個大灣會議四字五二五號解釋也特別有講到就是說我們做這個行政調查或行政檢查要有一定的那個規範限制那這個先前在行政院討論的時候就是會有人會覺得說會有疑慮說這個"},{"start":10763.951,"end":10782.09,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":10782.25,"end":10798.718,"text":"拜託立法院提示現場第一線執法人員必須要去審酌有沒有這個必要性,如果有這個必要性我們才可以進去。這個相對對人民也是一種權利的保障,讓執法人員可以更多一層的考慮。第二個就是說,"},{"start":10800.801,"end":10817.474,"text":"當時在考慮說為什麼必須要限制一定的時間因為我們假設說某一個場域他可能已經10年前20年都沒有在做了那這個時候可能他已經久遠了這個時候要進去的正當性其實是不太夠的"},{"start":10818.214,"end":10818.254,"text":" ﹝竹笠竹笠﹞"},{"start":10839.206,"end":10863.217,"text":" ﻏﻏﻏﻏﻏ"},{"start":10863.336,"end":10881.971,"text":" ﻏ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":10882.688,"end":10901.647,"text":" ﻏ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":10901.987,"end":10929.554,"text":"考試作弊的話他們現在考試法的規定是五年以內就不能再考試啦這也是他們的專業的判斷為什麼當時不是設三年或是五年像那個大法官的會議解釋對於計程車司機被吊銷執照他當時認為說如果就不准人家再考駕照的話是違憲的所以他認為說三年他認為說三年只能期日三年那我們各位同仁還沒有要發言"},{"start":10931.642,"end":10957.048,"text":"我們再請行政部門,你們那個五年有收入過嗎?因為這個現在還沒有,我們還是要聽聽你們的意見。夠還是不夠?還是怎麼樣?你們如果五年是有保障跟那個必要時,台灣法務部也說明了。主要就是也要尊重人民,但是也要讓你們可以執行。"},{"start":10957.768,"end":10961.449,"text":"行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請"},{"start":10987.628,"end":11009.042,"text":"如此的宣誓就是18條就是等於我們陳素月委員邱議瑩委員跟楊瓊瓔委員那這個我們是列在第17條所以呢我們以行政院版本的第18條就是跟羅廷偉委員跟那個賴瑞榮委員的修正動議的文字通過有沒有意見"},{"start":11011.049,"end":11011.129,"text":"第18條第3章"},{"start":11031.755,"end":11049.514,"text":"我們第三章的章名呢植物診療機構管理都跟行政部門陳素月委員的跟行政部門都一樣所以我們就以行政部門跟陳素月委員的這個文字通過來我們接續第19條因為我們條序各位同仁條序有有"},{"start":11050.435,"end":11050.595,"text":"行政院函請審議"},{"start":11066.052,"end":11093.72,"text":"第19條的部分除了陳素月委員的版本比較不一致其他都是一致陳素月委員版本的第一項的部分我們認為開業登記的資格直接在授權的執法規定定就可以了所以他是在我們的第二項的前面前項申請開業登記資格以後會涵設直接進去然後他的第三項的部分也是我們後來都是一樣的我們會授權定定標準"},{"start":11094.44,"end":11119.223,"text":"由中央疾管機關定之,其他委員的部分都是一致的。以上。好,那請教各位委員,那這個部分呢,第18條,那我們行政院版本的第19條,一同討論,條序改為第三章,第19條。那這個部分呢,邱議員委員、楊瓊瓔委員以及"},{"start":11120.305,"end":11131.399,"text":"羅廷偉委員跟賴銳偉的修正動議都跟行政院版本的一樣我們是不是就以這些第四個版本的文字通過好,通過來,第20條來,行政部門"},{"start":11135.624,"end":11155.17,"text":"第20條除了陳素月委員的版本有比較不一致其他都是一致陳素月委員版本多了幾個字叫公立級法人植物診療機構那我們認為說不需要再去特別描述公立級法人行政院版本我們依照條序第20條並邱議瑩委員第19條楊瓊瑩委員第19條羅廷惠委員第20條以及"},{"start":11164.572,"end":11173.563,"text":"內瑞倫委員二十條文字與行政院版本一樣我們依照這四個版本來通過有沒有異議"},{"start":11176.95,"end":11202.68,"text":"來我們繼續第21條請做說明第21條的第一項除了陳素月委員之外其他所有委員的第一項的部分的文字是一致的那第二項的部分就是文字我們更精英簡一點我們就寫植物診療機構名稱之使用及變更原者由中央主管機關公告之那我先說明陳素月委員的部分陳素月委員的部分他是第一項跟第二項剛好跟我們的部分是對調的"},{"start":11204.3,"end":11228.182,"text":"明稱的部分剛好對調公告他只是寫說由施行細則定制我們認為由中央主管公告就可以的那那個跟邱議委員版本是一致的那跟趙偉寧的版本的部分是在第二項的部分就是我們關於有您多的部分就是前項一使人誤認為植物診療師之名稱與本法施行細則定制我先說明"},{"start":11228.302,"end":11230.844,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第11屆第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆"},{"start":11253.021,"end":11264.898,"text":"最後的部分就是名稱之使用及變更原則來將本席所提的會讓人家誤認的這個機構的名稱"},{"start":11267.898,"end":11284.196,"text":"直接就機構名稱之使用及變更原則,變更原則跟誤認這個會等號嗎?是使用,使用怎樣的名字,然後我有擔心你可能會讓人家誤認,那誤認的使用的能夠使用什麼名稱?"},{"start":11285.492,"end":11287.635,"text":"請教各位同仁有沒有要發言 來"},{"start":11301.114,"end":11327.117,"text":"所以你們在這正面表列這些名稱應該是在我們法國之後應該在對一定要公告這部分很重要你不要讓人家已經訂了申請了你們說哇這不可以我覺得這個要併同這時間點很重要來我們陳副委員所講的請農業部門在公告的時候一併公告那第二還有沒有要發言"},{"start":11328.138,"end":11354.545,"text":"第二十一條,第二十一條的部分陳素月委員也是第二條具一樣二十一條,卿議員委員二十條,楊卿議員二十條跟羅定會委員二十一條,跟內陸委員邱正東議的也是二十一條那我們就依行政院版本剛才所討論的文字來通過各位有沒有意見"},{"start":11357.335,"end":11379.365,"text":"好,那接下來我們依照第22條繼續討論請行政部門請提出22條,序文大家援引的條字會有做調整因為大家現在的條字有點不同我們這邊是第19條那各款我跟各位我也在做22條怎麼第19條22條我們依第19條規定有沒有那委員有的用18條是因為大家條字有點不一樣了"},{"start":11384.887,"end":11413.197,"text":"現在我們各位同仁我們現在的條據都以行政院版本的條據所以條字用行政院版本的條字那第一款的部分跟委員說明的部分是我們有增加了一個部分就是說對於那種但書我們增加就是說因為對於但書那種所謂的原因消失比如說監務宣告輔助宣告有客觀事實認為不能執行職務這些原因如果消滅之後我們也認為這些人他是可以在"},{"start":11413.677,"end":11437.142,"text":" ﻏ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11437.282,"end":11464.134,"text":"中間增加的一個部分是寫得更清楚的是說自處分確定日期尚未屆滿一年申請人以相同或類似的名稱在同一直轄市或縣市區域內提出申請或同一負責植物診療師在原址或其他處所申請設立植物診療機構我們增加這幾個文字能夠讓事實能夠更清楚才不會有人就是"},{"start":11464.814,"end":11488.374,"text":"用不同的名字然後還是在同一個地方去做職業走這樣的漏洞所以呢我們就特別在這一次的第二款就寫得更清楚以上哪個同仁沒有意見請問一下這個就是說他如果執照未滿一年但是他依照第22條的這個規定那他還是有機會"},{"start":11494.29,"end":11510.803,"text":"這樣解讀正確嗎?我覺得您剛剛講的是說我們的版本其實跟委員您本人的版本是一樣的因為我們的但書是一模一樣的對,是不是這樣的意思?對,而未滿一年這個東西我們只擔心一件事有人用不是用相同名字用相同名字沒問題有人用類似的名字"},{"start":11511.544,"end":11535.486,"text":" ﻏﻏﻏﻏ"},{"start":11535.586,"end":11535.766,"text":" ﹝蓬勃﹞ ﹞ ﹞"},{"start":11557.745,"end":11585.294,"text":"不是管人啦,你是說名稱,如果相似啊。申請人。機構的申請人。你是管人還是管名稱?沒有,他剛剛是說相似喔。機構的申請人,他有可能會用兩個不同的名字,但是如果未滿一年,即使是用相似的名字,只要是同一個申請人都是不行的。所以他是管申請人。是管申請人喔?不是管名稱喔?"},{"start":11587.165,"end":11611.54,"text":"等於說同一個人那可能到時候用不同的名字,這樣也不行啊。對對對,所以你是管人嘛。只要同一個人就不可以,你就是管人啊。我們講快一點清楚齁,好。那如果他在這個縣市,但是他也可以到其他縣市可以嗎?同意只要是啊,可以啊。可以齁,不同區塊就可以喔。"},{"start":11612.93,"end":11621.113,"text":"您現在你特別再訂個但書的是在同一個區塊不行那再不一樣的是可以喔因為還是會回歸過來第22條的原子喔還是可以喔 是不是"},{"start":11628.596,"end":11657.579,"text":"比如說他在屏東的不可以他到台南可不可以植物診療機構對您要看一下齁如果是同一個植物診療師植物診療師會在後半段或由同一負責植物診療師在原址或其他處所申請設立植物診療機構是不可以的那我們剛剛講說前半部的是在講植物診療機構那個機構本身那個申請人你不可以在同一個直轄室比如說"},{"start":11660.061,"end":11671.886,"text":"同一個名字的機構已經被廢掉了。你不可以在這個縣市出現同一個名字的機構。你就約束在這個縣市啦,這個區啦。好,來各位同仁有沒有意見?"},{"start":11673.991,"end":11696.269,"text":"沒有意見我們第22條行政部門特別在後面第二款的部分再緩推回來啦好那我們就依照行政院第22條依照行政院的文字通過還有羅金惠委員跟戴洛蘭委員的文字通過那就是OK第22條來各位同學有沒有意見"},{"start":11705.122,"end":11730.288,"text":"第二十三條請說明第二十三條所有委員的文字幾乎都是一致的幾乎那只有差比如說像序文的部分吼那個跟跟楊委員您的部分就是差一個有字植物診療機構有歇業的這個這個的變更者我們只是多一個有字吼那其餘的部分像陳素月陳委員他少了我們行政院版本的第三項跟第四項的部分"},{"start":11731.388,"end":11752.793,"text":"關於所謂的授權的執法規他沒有訂定那其他的委員的相似內容幾乎都是一致的各位同仁要不要發言那請教我們的文字不是只有你講的這樣那個副頁你在前面的條文已經有這裡要不要加上副頁你也有副頁"},{"start":11754.923,"end":11755.623,"text":"委員我們的副業是寫在後半段。"},{"start":11772.938,"end":11790.528,"text":" ️ 前面的部分是40發生之日起算30日,所以是正在植物診療機構他歇業停業變更,那你在40發生後30日,但是復業我們寫在後半段,有復業者應至復業前30日,你必須在復業前告訴我你要復業。"},{"start":11792.145,"end":11817.517,"text":"好,那接下來就是在這個發生之日起算,你多一個算跟起,這是什麼差別?還是有差一天。委員其實我們這個部分體力跟11條,11條我們那時候也是用起算30日。對。前面是起算嘛,有加好,前面有起算。"},{"start":11820.851,"end":11826.816,"text":"那這個還有一個部分就是說復業前30日這個前面已經復業前30日那你是多有復業者因致復業前"},{"start":11839.837,"end":11866.504,"text":"你是多有副業者你再把它再寫上去有沒有這個必要委員其實他就跟第一他的前半段有歇業者有副業者都是對應的就植物診療機構有歇業者然後有副業者是對應呼應的文字是前後呼應好那接下來就是第三款的部分機關許可跟機關核准"},{"start":11870.253,"end":11873.554,"text":"第二十三條的部分請教各位同仁有沒有要再發言"},{"start":11897.121,"end":11918.249,"text":"第二十三條的部分呢如果沒有我們就依照行政院版本二十三條那是其他委員是二十二條有三個委員二十二條的條例併案那有羅廷偉委員跟那個賴論委員也一樣是二十三條的文字通過好有沒有意見"},{"start":11931.743,"end":11938.227,"text":"我們中午不休息 謝謝第24條"},{"start":11940.185,"end":11967.374,"text":"第二四條來行政部門第二四條除了陳素月委員的版本之外其他委員版本都是一致的那陳素月版本的部分要做個說明第一項的後半段開業執照毀損或滅屍跟他的第二項的部分我們是整合在我們的第二項就是毀損、滅屍、遺屍我們這三個我們是統統都集合在第二項那陳素月委員只是把它分成兩項在說明而已那我們只是把它整合"},{"start":11973.576,"end":11989.7,"text":"同仁請政院版本第24條有邱議委員、楊瓊瓔委員、羅廷惠委員以及賴若文委員的修正版本都一致。我們是不是依照這四個版本通過?文字通過?同意。謝謝。第25條"},{"start":11993.042,"end":12021.367,"text":"來,行政部門二十五條的部分跟所有委員版本有唯一的差別是我們加了植物診療師在兩項都加了植物診療師這是依據一百一十二年憲判決第十七號的判決他認為說這樣的話植物診療師他本來也就是植物診療師可以做植物診療廣告可以做診療廣告所以我們針對二十五條的部分增加了植物診療師以免以後造成誤解何貴同學有沒有要發言"},{"start":12022.367,"end":12048.476,"text":"就是把機構跟人都放進來了。好,那我們就依照行政院版本跟內陸委員的修正版本通過。有沒有意見?接下來我們第26條,26條的條序跟委員的25條,那文字都一樣,我們就依照行政院版本通過,有沒有意見?"},{"start":12050.114,"end":12079.093,"text":"好沒有我們再通過第27條請做說明第二七條唯一有不同的叫做有我們認為說定期收費標準定法規命令那委員有的是寫收費費額喔指這個差別所以我們建議還是依行政院版本通過以上費額委員有沒有要發言如果沒有請教法部門收費標準費額跟標準什麼差別標準是法規命令就跟辦法一樣"},{"start":12081.515,"end":12089.44,"text":"中央法規標準法的法規的名稱,然後這個是規費。我們一般規費依照規費法第10條,我們都是訂收費標準。那費額呢?"},{"start":12094.217,"end":12121.216,"text":"稅額就是實施法規命令。以後如果...我支持行政院的版本啦。就依照一般法律用語都是寫收費標準。就照這個。建議主席我們是就照...就是邱議員同意行政部門。那法務部,我們今天是法律面欸。那稅額有問題嗎?我們是法律的。我們今天是通過植物治療師的法欸。他要授權定職法。"},{"start":12122.357,"end":12133.97,"text":"拜託主席按照那個中央法規標準法的規定那個標準是六種法規命令的名稱之一那用那個標準的話應該是比較妥當的"},{"start":12137.984,"end":12159.506,"text":"中央法規標準法的規定法規命令的名稱有六種嘛那那個費額不在這個中央法規標準法的名稱裡面好來各位同仁那針對於第27條是不是依照這個行政院版本還有羅天惠版本跟賴樂龍委員的版本齁通過"},{"start":12160.578,"end":12172.178,"text":"有沒有意見沒有來接下來我們第四章第四章的章名法則的部分都跟行政院版本一樣所以我們依照行政院版本有沒有意見"},{"start":12174.208,"end":12196.608,"text":"來第28條來請說明委員跟委員報告就是原引的條字內部處罰的原引條字就是依照行政院的版本的條字那跟楊委員委有不同的是楊委員您的第二項植物診療機構受停業處分而不停業者廢止其開業執照我們是定在我們行政院版的35條的第二項"},{"start":12198.43,"end":12199.372,"text":"請教各位同仁有沒有要發言?"},{"start":12210.39,"end":12210.41,"text":"拜託請審議"},{"start":12233.24,"end":12252.915,"text":"來,3萬到20萬跟3萬到15萬請教各位同仁有沒有發表我沒有意見我可以支持行政院的版本3萬到15萬好,邱議員同意支持行政院版本那第28條請教各位同仁還有沒有要提出寶貴意見"},{"start":12256.693,"end":12274.715,"text":"但是我想瞭解就是說,那個張偉波老師,就是說未來要去做這個處罰的是由誰去?是由地方政府嗎?地方政府地方政府,那你們要怎麼處罰?然後依據是什麼?你們會再另訂一個?"},{"start":12276.136,"end":12299.292,"text":"稍微標準嗎?否則未來這個會有爭議喔,因為這個是新的法上路,那到底哪些樣態會處罰到什麼程度,我覺得這可能要很清楚喔。否則這個到時候因為我們這個任局這個新法上路要有一些規範,否則這個地方政府會有,有些鬆,有些"},{"start":12300.273,"end":12310.02,"text":"拜託提醒後續的那個財閥基準的話我們會針對相關的一個跟各不同的地方政府我們也擔心說不同地方政府財閥基準不一樣所以您所提的財閥基準我們會開會去統一一個一個"},{"start":12324.349,"end":12345.159,"text":"對,這很重要,否則我看你新法上路,你當然不知道怎麼去處理啦。你訂了這個原則之後,到時候萬一這個縣市這樣處理,那個縣市這樣處理,你到時候最後問題會在你們身上。而且他在做一個行政,要求一個行政處理的時候,你們更麻煩了。好,謝謝。"},{"start":12347.32,"end":12363.549,"text":"提出那第28條因為這個的確像那個都計法它的容積要怎麼加中央政府內政部它一定營建署會訂一個訂一個版本出來然後給各縣市政府依照這個版本自行去調"},{"start":12364.729,"end":12393.453,"text":"當然這個是因為處罰的部分,因為你在一個地方那你可以到所有各區都去執業所以這個部分可能就要請農業部這邊要訂定一個版本這樣子各縣市政府才有所議規啦好不好好那現在呢第28條我們就用行政院版本的這個文字通過有沒有意見"},{"start":12394.653,"end":12397.855,"text":"第二十九條請做說明第二十九條請做說明"},{"start":12427.412,"end":12450.368,"text":"好來來29條請做說明29條吼跟楊委員您有部分的序文的部分有不同的是五年內再犯者我們是五年內再次違反者那再來就是第一款的部分違反第13條第一項規定我要說明跟委員說明跟您有一些不同是我們要回到我們剛剛通過的第13條第一項的構成要件我們是依照原先第13條第一項的構成要件去"},{"start":12451.269,"end":12453.811,"text":"請教各位同仁差別有錢就是剛剛我們同意已經15萬了"},{"start":12468.817,"end":12470.138,"text":"再犯跟再次違反者,什麼差別?"},{"start":12482.981,"end":12504.136,"text":"我們比較傾向的是說我們平常大部分都是再次違反因為它是行政的違反你如果再犯很多人以為是再次犯罪那個刑法的犯比較傾向於刑責那一塊當然我兩個文字的意見是差不多意思一樣只是我們文字因為我們還是要審慎怎樣符合法律用語"},{"start":12505.838,"end":12523.232,"text":"再犯跟再次違反者,這個再次違反者就變成行政法而已啊。可是你這個也有那個法部,再犯跟再次違反者有什麼差別?"},{"start":12526.482,"end":12534.511,"text":"法律用語是什麼?一般來講我們在法律用語上面來講會用範字的話大多數是指觸犯刑事處罰規定而言"},{"start":12543.261,"end":12568.379,"text":"例如商業會計法第74條那行為若是抵觸行政法歸屬規範的義務的話多數都是以違反來稱呼比如說飼料管理法32條三綱法62條二項道路交通管理處罰條例18條二項飼料管理法第41條等所以一般來講違反行政法是違反的那這個本席了解意義是一樣只是我們的"},{"start":12570.06,"end":12587.388,"text":"我們這個法就是也有法案也有那個行政法規的部分我們是行政法規的成分多一點母法就法所以這兩個相通然後好各位同仁針對於第29條我剛剛所講的就是說我提的那個附帶決那個部分是針對所有的沒有就是那個我們裁法我們剛才討論28條的時候我不是有提到"},{"start":12599.394,"end":12603.057,"text":"來回歸29條請教各位同仁依照行政院版本有沒有意見"},{"start":12625.295,"end":12641.182,"text":"第29條依照行政院版本通過,我們來第30條請做說明。第30條跟楊昭惟寧的版本有不一致的地方,我們是特別把它強調是違反第17條規定,多把條字給續名了。還有第二個最"},{"start":12642.239,"end":12668.635,"text":"分別最大是情節重大者並得廢紙及植物診療師證書及職業證書我們家的情節重大也可以廢證這個部分以上做個說明請問各位同仁有沒有發言支持行政院吧情節重大者是由原發證單位還是由中央主管機關認定之誰認定"},{"start":12673.029,"end":12673.429,"text":"命跟令什麼不一樣?都有"},{"start":12698.044,"end":12717.644,"text":"啊?都有用過,都有法治體力這種體力去搜尋各法規都有,那所以併令或併命只是說有曾經法規委員有提過一個意見他說併命有點像是上面命令下面他說現在是比較民主國家比較少用這樣的字眼用命所以他大部分後來我們都會改成併令"},{"start":12721.035,"end":12749.1,"text":"因為委員的提案都是併命。你剛才講說命是上對下這樣嗎?併命有點像過去的從上對下去命令。威權時代的時候用命。這種說法。令也是上對下。你哪有令是下對上。所以委員我們不堅持。你要改命我們也可以。但是我們過去我們這個法律用語長期都是用哪一個?我覺得這比較重要啦。到底是命還是命?"},{"start":12750.589,"end":12753.611,"text":"法治體育上的意義其實含義都是一樣的 那在法治體育上也確實這兩種都有"},{"start":12776.187,"end":12777.148,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":12795.759,"end":12796.339,"text":"還有沒有其他委員要發言?"},{"start":12824.424,"end":12843.652,"text":"拜託請審理一下農業部,因為我們這部也有條序不一樣的,然後也有上下,我們還是統一,如果你們前面都是用令,我們就通通令,如果前面都是命,你就通通都是命啊,你不要一家一名一家令啊,那是什麼?"},{"start":12850.336,"end":12855.818,"text":"因為最近修法都是令了。那我們第三十條就依照行政院文字跟羅廷和委員跟內陸委員修正版本通過,有沒有意見?"},{"start":12873.564,"end":12900.341,"text":"好,那30條就如此喔,搜尋一下喔,不要不一樣的喔。好,來,第31條請做說明。三十一條其實跟楊委員您的版本幾乎都一致,只有原理的條次不同而已,其他內容都是一致的。好,各位同仁不要發言。第31條我們依照總和齁,行政院版本跟條序調整的文字通過,好不好?有沒有意見?"},{"start":12901.974,"end":12927.571,"text":"好,那我們第32條。第32條委員的部分就是第一項的部分就是那個序文令期改善、令期限期改善跟命期限期改善我們已經決定都用令了。那第一款、第二款跟第四款有的差別是原因的條次。我這邊要說明從現在開始到後面的罰則都會因應前面的條文的構成要件去做調整。"},{"start":12928.812,"end":12956.006,"text":"所以第九條第一項違反第九條第一項未向登記的職業機構這個因為我們第九條叫登記職業機構那就不會稱呼叫主要那第二款的部分是說完成繼續教育那時候我們有條文是寫說辦理職業執照的執照更新所以這個部分也必須續名執照更新然後第四款的部分就是有關於說像楊超雲委員是寫說後半段說說"},{"start":12957.086,"end":12971.629,"text":"為於施行細則有關應記載事項之規定記載,那因為我們現在已經規定用公告了,所以我們就違反一第13條第3項所定公告有關診療機構應記載事項製作方式之規定,那以上做個說明。"},{"start":12981.203,"end":12991.93,"text":"因為剛剛我們就是依照剛剛如果有的比如說主要就改為登記這一些可是你當時是寫原登記欸"},{"start":12994.707,"end":13015.315,"text":"你沒有向登記的職業機構所在的職療師、縣市主管機構申請職業執照而職業是沒有登記職業。你剛剛圓的是因為我要費政。要費政要呼應前面發政的機關才圓。那在這個地方是你應該登記卻沒登記就職業了。"},{"start":13018.217,"end":13031.326,"text":"好,那等於是你把你的第三款跟我們邱議員委員跟楊瓊瓔委員的第四款你是把它提來第三款嗎?對不對?依依講的是一樣嗎?"},{"start":13036.98,"end":13062.228,"text":"第3款是歇業、停業。我們第3款也是停業、歇業。第4款,第13條的這個部分,那位移適應細則那個部分呢?位移適應細則,委員回到13條第3項,我們已經改成用公告,不是用適應細則了。公告是不是?對,是改成公告。好,來請教各位同仁,針對於第"},{"start":13064.949,"end":13084.269,"text":"行政院版本的第32條因為這一條條文稱之很大有31條文提案跟30條跟32條還有文字不一樣的那經過詳細討論是不是依照行政院版本來通過請教各位好依照行政院版本來接下來"},{"start":13086.147,"end":13087.509,"text":"第33條的部分跟委員報告一下"},{"start":13101.124,"end":13129.732,"text":"他基本上來講所有的原引的條字剛剛有不一樣的地方就是原引的條字不同那如果跟那個楊瓊研委員您講的你的第四款齁第四款您寫衛一適應細則那我們現在這邊叫因為13條已經是衛一公告了所以這邊適應細則要改成公告那再來第六款的部分齁那我原則上原引的條字我們是把18條改成19條齁那個文字內容是一樣的"},{"start":13130.652,"end":13152.798,"text":"另外一個第8款的部分來講的時候有關於違反第20,您這邊是20條,我們這邊是21條啦,然後呢我們因為21條的第二項有一些違反,那楊委員您漏了20條第二項的部分我們把它補起來,就使用那個有關使用名稱的原則,您也不可以違反。"},{"start":13153.798,"end":13183.15,"text":"所以我們的第8款文字為什麼比楊委員的版本多一點是這樣那原理的條式有不同其他的內容都是一樣的那比如說剛剛我們講的廣告的部分11款跟12款剛剛我們有甄列不是只有植物診療機構因為植物診療師也是可以的所以有關於11款12款我們都增加了植物診療師這幾個文字那後面的條文第二項的部分有甄列的部分大家都是一致的"},{"start":13186.597,"end":13202.868,"text":"請教要不要發言來就是等於行政部門你也將第13款的部分植物診療師機構的這個部分呢續名吼那還有一個部分就是說最後"},{"start":13204.796,"end":13223.095,"text":"將植物診療師的證照可以廢止這個部分,就是併剛剛那個前兩條的條文,把機構跟植物診療師兩個都併在廢除的這個部分嘛,是不是如此?好請教各位同仁"},{"start":13226.26,"end":13238.956,"text":"我們經濟委員會今天應該要開拍手了我要謝謝大家我要謝謝大家因為這個也是等一下我們節目都交叉來 那請教各位同仁他們要發言針對於第30"},{"start":13242.259,"end":13245.181,"text":"行政院版本的文字通過有沒有意見"},{"start":13270.536,"end":13273.502,"text":"楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「植物診療師法草案 案 》案。"},{"start":13282.004,"end":13305.64,"text":"來繼續34條行政部門請說明第34條我們把位於24小時內通報主管機關的內容寫得更仔細一點因為畢竟是要處罰的我們要增加將植物種類有害生物名稱植物所有人或管理人之姓名及住址為通報的內容我們做個明確的一個說明跟文字的調整那以上"},{"start":13306.82,"end":13333.223,"text":"好,各位同仁,針對34條的部分呢,那...這條序齁,跟...這是他寫得更清楚齁。那立法院委員特別還提了一個照片,需不需要?需不需要?對啊,那你們認為需不需要?"},{"start":13335.39,"end":13362.689,"text":"委員長,我們現在在修法,就是說針對這個照片,需不需要?不需要,不需要照片。因為我們尊重每一個委員所提案拿出來討論。好,請叫各位同仁針對於34條有沒有意見?如果沒有,我們就照行政院版本跟羅廷偉版本以及各委員提案的討論文字通過,好嗎?"},{"start":13365.13,"end":13389.328,"text":"有沒有意見沒有來我們繼續第35條請說明第一項的部分吼那因為我們不是只有廢紙職業執照我們還有撤銷所以撤銷的部分我們是把它補足就是撤銷或廢紙職業執照的處分的部分那我們有針列我們的第二項的部分那楊委員您剛剛的部分是在28條第二項我把它移過來這裡"},{"start":13392.028,"end":13393.789,"text":"各位委員有沒有要發言?"},{"start":13393.789,"end":13410.78,"text":"沒有請第35條的部分加上行政院版本的撤銷有邱議瑩委員、羅廷輝委員以及賴任委員的修正版本我們依照這些文字通過請問各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":13410.78,"end":13412.862,"text":"沒有我們通過第36條請說明"},{"start":13418.851,"end":13436.577,"text":"第3跟楊委員的部分是因為你有加一個除外的規定齁除外的規定那除外規定那因為我們現在的部分的整個體力裡面來講不管是開職業執照或開業執照都是指甲式縣市政府去去做發證的所以基本上來講我們認為那個部分"},{"start":13437.837,"end":13438.758,"text":"請教各位同仁有沒有發言?"},{"start":13454.947,"end":13472.984,"text":"所以這個目的,真正就是希望說你們在落實法令的時候,因為不是只有中央去執行,你要22縣市去執行,所以我還是具體我們剛剛共同有提了一個附帶決議,你們公告的時候一併公告,但是要公告前我個人還是認為建議你們"},{"start":13475.106,"end":13492.537,"text":"你們還是要找二十二縣市來先開一下,他們同意之後你們來公告,才不會大家以後麻煩,好嗎?好,第36條請教各位委員,依照行政院版本、建議委員版本、委員會版本跟內陸委員的修正同意通過,有沒有意見?沒有。好,來我們通過第37條。"},{"start":13495.609,"end":13497.872,"text":"第37條,我也有差別是第一款,我們家的植物診療師公會在植牙師縣市的部分"},{"start":13513.968,"end":13514.449,"text":"植物診療師法草案案"},{"start":13537.386,"end":13545.85,"text":"內政部這邊代表說明依據賴瑞榮委員的部分他是建議在公會後面增加聯合會那這個部分這樣子是比較精準的"},{"start":13556.395,"end":13556.736,"text":"農業部請出說明"},{"start":13575.913,"end":13600.678,"text":"我們把公會後面再加一個聯合會吧公會聯合會全國植物診療師公會聯合會聯合會跟沒有聯合會有什麼差別請做說明地方的部分叫公會那個全國性的中央的部分是地方的公會組起來那成為聯合會"},{"start":13603.558,"end":13604.639,"text":"國際植物診療公會聯合會公會聯合會"},{"start":13620.367,"end":13644.28,"text":"我再確定一下,第一個部分是屬於比較地方的嘛,自家式跟縣式的,第二個是全國性的工會聯合會,所以如果加聯合會也是更清楚。一般的那個全國性的工會聯合會,它就是叫公會聯合會。第一個是地方的啦,自家式跟縣式,第二個是全國的,他們加聯合會會更清楚。"},{"start":13644.72,"end":13669.671,"text":"那如果大家同意我們就依照這個賴樂隆委員的修正版本在第二款裡頭增加那個聯合會三個字。就中間跟地方分開啦。是不是如此?講清楚。我們地方的部分就是一般的那個直轄市及縣市公會。然後全國植物診療師公會後面再加一個聯合會這樣子。"},{"start":13677.222,"end":13677.242,"text":"第38條"},{"start":13686.912,"end":13704.227,"text":"三十八條的條序不一而已文字一樣所以我們是不是依照三十七條委員的提案三十七條跟委員的提案三十八條跟行政院版本這個三十八條的內容文字通過好來三十九條請做說明"},{"start":13705.68,"end":13730.228,"text":"九條齁,如果依照內政部剛剛的意見齁,我們必須在第二項跟第三項齁,全國植物診療師公會後面都加聯合會三個字。好,OK。再來還有什麼?然後跟委員版本有不同的是,因為委員版本當初都只有直轄市縣市植物診療師公會的組成,那我們第二項第三項針對全國植物診療師公會聯合會的組成,也在這邊做一併規範。"},{"start":13732.281,"end":13756.053,"text":"我們第二項跟第三項都是全國植物診療師公會的聯合會的組成。那那個委員的提案邱議瑩委員跟大西素月委員有加兩個字工作在該區域工作是差別嗎?在該區域工作之"},{"start":13757.386,"end":13772.855,"text":"植物診療師19人以上花錢的組織之。你們沒有工作。我們是寫申請職業登記。我們原則上前面都是在講職業。我們不會特別去強調工作。"},{"start":13773.874,"end":13796.113,"text":"植物診療師我們都在申請職業的職業在各位同仁那針對這個部分呢是不是依照來39條依照行政院版本吼那邱議瑩委員跟那素月委員的是37跟38條本期的是38條文字內容跟行政院版本一樣"},{"start":13797.454,"end":13817.581,"text":"羅廷偉委員是第39條的條序,文字內容跟行政部門一樣,但是賴論委員的是39條有一個,就全國聯合會剛剛38條我們都加入,全國的後面都加聯合會,是不是依照我們所有的版本修制文字通過?有沒有意見?"},{"start":13817.581,"end":13817.821,"text":"沒有意見。"},{"start":13818.681,"end":13824.082,"text":"第39條就照剛剛主席台所宣告的通過第40條請做說明第40條差別是我們行政院的版本是職業團體主管機關主管那其他委員版本是社會行政主管機關"},{"start":13846.607,"end":13856.85,"text":"那我們建議說還是依最新的體力用職業團體主管機關 那我們建議說還是依最新的體力用職業團體主管機關 那有差在哪裡啊?為什麼行政主管機關跟職業團體主管機關?為什麼行政主管機關跟職業團體主管機關?為什麼行政主管機關跟職業團體主管機關?為什麼行政主管機關跟職業團體主管機關?為什麼行政主管機關跟職業團體主管機關?"},{"start":13856.85,"end":13858.451,"text":"為什麼行政主管機關跟職業團體主管機關?"},{"start":13858.451,"end":13860.311,"text":"為什麼行政主管機關跟職業團體主管機關?"},{"start":13860.311,"end":13862.192,"text":"為什麼行政主管機關跟職業團體主管機關?"},{"start":13862.192,"end":13863.552,"text":"為什麼行政主管機關跟職業團體主管機關?"},{"start":13863.552,"end":13864.173,"text":"為什麼行政務"},{"start":13865.453,"end":13866.554,"text":"第二條主管機關指導監督這個第二條要不要列上來請說明"},{"start":13889.824,"end":13913.313,"text":"各位委員報告因為那個原來裡面的像社會行政的這一個部分在我們那個直系裡面考試直系裡面我們都改為社老行政所以這個部分我們建議那個依行政院的版本就由那個職業團體主管機關對因為工會是職團的一種就依職業團體不是不是不是在地方政府工會的主管機關是社會局"},{"start":13914.633,"end":13937.585,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":13937.907,"end":13945.938,"text":"所以 公會 公不一樣 公會 用台語講 公會 跟 公會 那不一樣喔 公會 是 我們這個團體是 勞工"},{"start":13951.906,"end":13979.256,"text":"你的公會是所謂社會教所以你現在你要講好清楚因為你這個會有混淆當然如果診療師你用診療師為主體那當然是職業可是你又後面是公會那個公會啦齁他就變成就是社會教所以你這個要講清楚未來到底是誰否則你地方我告訴你兩個會打架球他來他去"},{"start":13981.997,"end":13998.667,"text":"會踢來踢去喔對這是不一樣的喔所以你到底要以誰診療師當然以師他是職業可是公會又是社會局這才有兩個不一樣阿"},{"start":14000.66,"end":14024.878,"text":"那這一個部分我們可以尊重委員的意見因為我們原本是怕那個原來用的用語是社會行政會被人家感覺上是跟原來那個社會行政的直系會牽扯在一起但是如果就剛才委員所說的那他其實這樣子的解釋其實是就是針對社會主管的那個單位就社會行政的主管單位那大概就是社會局就會跟原來剛才那個委員講的跟港會"},{"start":14025.879,"end":14028.78,"text":"目前現行的法例會寫職業團體主管機關主管的是109年新制定的公共衛生司法"},{"start":14054.365,"end":14077.402,"text":"一百零九年新制定的公共衛生司法它就是寫公共衛生公會由職業團體主管機關主管但其目的是要應受主管機關之指導監督看起來文字是類似看起來是一樣所以這個部分給大家做參考"},{"start":14078.174,"end":14099.032,"text":"所以109年新制定的法例是這樣寫公共衛生司法這個是針對於但是這個是有一點就是特別是針對於醫務人員的那你有沒有適應在一般性喔好第41條請你們去查清楚好不好"},{"start":14100.414,"end":14126.573,"text":"今天講了很謝謝他剛才提供的那個是專門為衣物衣物的部分專屬的喔所以還是要查清楚來這個還是建議整個把它查清楚你不查清楚不行第41條我們先保留先把因為前面都是前面都是公司的公啦好請去查清楚先保留來第41條"},{"start":14130.092,"end":14139.328,"text":"第41條跟委員的版本大致都一致那一個部分就是第二款的部分聯合會公會聯合會這是要加進來的"},{"start":14142.508,"end":14158.434,"text":"第41屆,41條,各位有沒有要發言?沒見,就加了那個聯合會就好了。有很多啦,怎麼會這樣隨便沒有。你那個前項理事跟前項各款的理事,"},{"start":14159.554,"end":14177.011,"text":"加上各款委員的版本都有各款有沒有什麼差距這個請提出說明那麼同時我們在這個監視名額在三人以上者三人以上時跟者"},{"start":14177.992,"end":14178.132,"text":"拜託請說明"},{"start":14192.042,"end":14218.39,"text":"委員您剛剛講的所謂的各款有跟沒有結果文字是一樣的因為委員的版本就是委員那個誰啊所以委員這個都有各款那沒有這兩個字意思也是一樣的因為本期沒有這兩個字但是我還是尊重我們所有委員的提案所以你們在說明的時候必須要尊重一下不要說都一樣誰跟你一樣啊 對不對"},{"start":14219.17,"end":14219.31,"text":"請做說明。"},{"start":14236.267,"end":14260.645,"text":"還有那個在三人以上者 三人以上十 這個因為你們是者 一個人 那者就是三個人啊 這者啊 啊怎麼還要還要再者 那個數字的三人就是者嘛 我們的是委員的版本都是十啊 三個人以上就已經講三個人以上十"},{"start":14261.926,"end":14281.827,"text":"委員,那兩個的文字是一樣的意思,所以委員若認為詞比較妥當,我們也尊重。那後面德﹖ 那個因跟德這個比較重要。跟委員一下講,他也可以不互選常務理事,因為他在三人以上的話,他也可以不選擇常務理事的選任,也可以有。"},{"start":14282.841,"end":14308.831,"text":" ﻏ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":14308.951,"end":14309.771,"text":"議員懷疑議員懷疑議員懷疑議員懷疑議員懷疑"},{"start":14334.953,"end":14362.922,"text":"總統有五人擬一個理事監事,三個人尤其是監事嘛,三個人就擬一個監事啊,常務監事團體,團體自治,所以文字沒有必要,沒有一定好,那這個各位同仁是不是,如果這個我們先暫定啦齁,因為這個好像回覆到40條的如果是在社會局的歸管單位,我們就把"},{"start":14364.52,"end":14376.131,"text":"就是依照行政部門的這個這個德啦是不是這樣子各位同仁請教在第第41條"},{"start":14378.618,"end":14397.808,"text":"是不是41條是不是如此是不是41條裡面就是則改為實那因這個還是依照行政院版本的德這樣子的文字經過五個版本的修正文字通過有沒有意見"},{"start":14401.53,"end":14402.23,"text":"兼顧委員會兼顧委員會"},{"start":14422.688,"end":14422.708,"text":"第42條"},{"start":14435.064,"end":14456.35,"text":"第42條行政部門第42條剛剛就是跟第47條的問題一樣就是職業團體主管機關這個部分那另外後半段兵役報分報主管機關被查那楊委員您寫說兵分報目的事業主管機關被查那目的事業主管機關在這個法裡面的目的事業主管機關就是農業部跟指甲師縣市政府"},{"start":14456.73,"end":14457.011,"text":"關於職業團體主管機關請說明"},{"start":14470.371,"end":14491.557,"text":"內政部說明跟各位委員報告剛才我們查了一下結果大概原則上在以前的那個司法裡面相關的一些司法裡面其實都是用那個社會行政機關那就是在上次那個在109年的公共衛生司法在公共衛生司法裡面是因為那時候就是我們考量說可能啊"},{"start":14491.877,"end":14510.38,"text":" ﹏因為社會行政的直系被改成社勞行政那會不會有所誤解那時候才建議改成那個職業團體但是如果橫卓剛才那個陳委員所講的因為他確實在地方機關兩個都是職業團體在崗會跟工會之間他很有可能因為他分屬不同勞動局跟社會局他有可能會造成誤解"},{"start":14511.061,"end":14537.132,"text":"那這個部分因為社會行政機關不管它是社會行政機關反正它社會局就是社會行政機關所以這個部分我們會建議把它改為那個那個委員的建議的版本就是以社會行政主管機關來對啦這樣就對了這樣你就很清楚告訴人家你不然你到時候到地方鎮樓你就亂去誰誰跟那個他都說踢皮球踢籃球都踢出來我跟你講不是用打的啦對不對謝謝委員的建議好"},{"start":14540.373,"end":14559.101,"text":"我們還是繼續討論42條 42條我們的文字是清楚的給你寫社會行政主管機關請教農業部門你們覺得是不是依照委員的這個版本這樣子是不是比較清楚內政部是不是這樣子的版本比較清楚來你們講一下"},{"start":14566.448,"end":14591.263,"text":"問這第42條是不是依照陳素月委員、邱議瑩委員、楊瓊瓔委員的版本通過?是不是?問這看清楚後半段後半段後半段對啦後半段啦就是把它署名啦那他講的這個造冊會員名冊及選任職員還要寫那個選任嗎?要嗎?職員就職員出來了還要管他怎麼"},{"start":14594.146,"end":14609.337,"text":"所以像我們社團法人,你的理見室也可以拍拍手,也可以用選的,也可以怎樣啊。你這理見室就好了,你要還要選嗎?農業部?要嗎?要不要選?選證要有,有的是騙的,因為理見室是選的。"},{"start":14611.274,"end":14637.754,"text":"不是不是,職員吶委員吼要為什麼要選任你如果是職員有人會誤解是工會裡面任職的一般的職員那我們這邊的選任職員選任職員是選任的那些剛剛講的理事監事所以選任兩個字還是應該要存在以避免誤解在內政部是同意這樣子嗎對因為那個在我們的那個團體法裡面其實也有用到是選任職員的這樣子的用法"},{"start":14638.424,"end":14664.9,"text":"好那各位同仁那這個部分呢42條齁選任職員依照行政部門後面的申請所在這一些申請所在地社會行政主管機關立案並應分報目的事業主管機關備查來那另外還有一個不是目的事業主管機關來要講清楚來主管機關備查"},{"start":14671.983,"end":14695.091,"text":"對,所以就是本席的這個部分來看一下本席的文字後面申請所在地社會行政主管機關核准立案有核准兩個字喔要不要核准立案並運分報目的事業主管機關備查來請"},{"start":14699.318,"end":14701.479,"text":"主管機關被查,併應分報,主管機關目的事業不用,就是農業部"},{"start":14723.834,"end":14748.032,"text":"主席,我建議就是把那個行政院的版本把職業團體主管機關改成社會行政主管機關就可以。是不是就簡單一點。用行政院的版本去改比較快。來。好,那這個文字剛剛所念的就很清楚了齁。就是行政院的部分前面都一樣一直到送勤。"},{"start":14750.157,"end":14771.372,"text":"社會行政主管機關核准立案只要把職業團體改成社會行政就可以了行政院的版本改成社會行政就好了主管機關對社會行政OK嗎各位同仁有沒有意見"},{"start":14773.719,"end":14799.542,"text":"那就依照剛剛五個版本所討論的修正文字通過好來43條第43條就是委員的第五款的部分我們只有任務那委員版本或事業有的委員有三個委員版本是加或事業那我們覺得只要寫任務就可以了請問因為我們現在是有師也有機構機構也是一個行為"},{"start":14801.758,"end":14807.483,"text":"公會只在他的章程只要定他的任務是什麼就好了。他要做什麼事情,他的任務。內政部。"},{"start":14822.415,"end":14832.278,"text":"依據我們承認團體法裡面其實在他的章程裡面只需要訂到任務就可以好,那各位同仁有沒有要發言?第43條我們是不是依照歐盟內的內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內內"},{"start":14852.404,"end":14879.347,"text":"有沒有意見沒有我們就如此第44條請做說明第44條序文的部分我們剛剛講職業團體要改成社會行政對就依照我這個社會行政目的事業打差目的事業打差入會退會跟出會有什麼差別不一樣退會跟入會來那個內政部退會跟入會有什麼差別"},{"start":14881.903,"end":14882.023,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":14909.276,"end":14930.977,"text":"關於我們平常的退會,就是自願性的。比如說他可能換一個職業的縣市搬家了,那他這邊就要退會。那我們平常的出會是因為他做錯事情,違反法令規定,被退會,被出會。出會當然都是基於不名譽的事情。"},{"start":14934.162,"end":14961.02,"text":"這個不是我們工會就是這樣嗎?對啊跟我們工會就一模一樣嘛沒有什麼差別嘛對啊所以我覺得就是就這樣那個主席因為他這個工會其實就是都是這樣都是都是這樣的一個執行方式啦對啊所以我覺得就這樣沒有意見啦有他們就工會都是一定的執行方式啦"},{"start":14963.434,"end":14976.1,"text":"對,自願。對。我們出名的是叫做出匯。是退。因為如果他有違反章﹖"},{"start":14980.253,"end":14995.022,"text":"因為你有陸會嘛。啊你怎麼有陸會讓他自由陸啊要自由退。啊應該是自由陸啊你們要有規管要讓他你們要有權利去給他退啊。沒有對不對那個那個一般公會就是說"},{"start":14995.882,"end":14996.903,"text":"請聽內政部你的意見"},{"start":15025.253,"end":15040.639,"text":"你們一般你們團體要怎麼用?一般的那個這個寫法其實就是一般我們團體的那個寫法大概大概大家都一致的就是退位?對對入退位好來退位那最後你那個第三款裡頭決議事項跟你寫的是會議紀錄會議紀錄喔那是哪一個?依照你們的工會台灣怎麼怎麼那個?是會議紀錄嗎?還是決議事項?"},{"start":15057.466,"end":15066.493,"text":"會議記錄我們都是收會議記錄好來各位同仁針對於第44條因為我們也知道我們的這個其實我們團隊很自主"},{"start":15071.397,"end":15093.612,"text":"這是很自主只是說我們還是把它討論清楚所以第44條就職業團體我們統一待會有條序的都是依一切都是改為社會行政對這個部分就自動改了依並改那其餘的我們就依照剛剛討論的文字通過好嗎各位同仁有沒有意見"},{"start":15095.659,"end":15112.555,"text":"第45條第一項職業團體主管機關改成社會行政主管機關跟委員版本不同的是第二項我們加了前項處分易得由主管機關為之就是意思說不是只有社會行政主管機關也可以做主管機關也可以做"},{"start":15115.052,"end":15141.166,"text":"主席請說這個我建議啦因為當然由社會行政主管機關來撤銷啦齁但是你的主管機關為之的話我建議是不是就是前項處分必要時得由主管機關為之就是還是有一點點的那個當然兩者都可以作為啦齁但事實上還是有一點點的這個會不會來得更 界定得更清楚一點OK尊重來第45條阿妹委員要發言"},{"start":15143.424,"end":15168.944,"text":"那剛剛所討論齁...欸...你...你...必要時你是不是要給...給...給...給這個行政部門...他兩者都可以為之啦齁但是我們還是以社會行政主管機關主要以他啦但是如果主管機關要做的時候他還是可以做事實上跟他們的講法...事實上我覺得這樣的文字寫法會比較順一點啦我覺得會比較順一點那個...要不要講...講一下好不好那個..."},{"start":15173.011,"end":15201.486,"text":"農業部要不要講一下就是說委員的說法意思是說基本上原則上還是由社會行政主管居然去撤銷那必要時是說有主次的概念就是說如果我們家的必要時的時候就是說我們發現說社會行政主管居然可能覺得沒必要可是目的是在管理上認為還是有必要的話那我也可以來做撤銷就讓他主次也能夠有分別能夠層次也能出來那這個意見我們尊重我們同意"},{"start":15204.006,"end":15219.541,"text":"你們看啦,因為你處分的喔,越簡單越好啦。啊你如果必要,你中央政府沒意見喔,你地方政府喔,你那個彈性可能會比較...沒有,只寫個必要而已啦,事實上一樣啦,兩個效果都是一樣。對啊,啊你就..."},{"start":15220.492,"end":15222.733,"text":"行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請審議"},{"start":15249.784,"end":15274.397,"text":"市長,剛才立法院所提到的就是說如果加了一個必要它有主從的概念就是平常的時候是由那個社會行政的一個主管機關那如果社會行政主管機關不為之而我們農業部也覺得說應該要處理的時候就是變成必要時我們農業部來就是主管機關來處理"},{"start":15275.418,"end":15278.261,"text":"所以加個必要詞應該可以這樣你會有爭議啦不會有爭議啦部長你這裡你剛剛有講職業團體你現在這是社會行政社會行政團體"},{"start":15287.389,"end":15313.813,"text":"主管機關阿實在是跟我說可以阿主協定的件事你會說這樣他現在說他有意見你會聽到嗎我們當然是大家一起討論阿對不對從早上討論到現在那個部長你再講一下啦就是說對這整個委員的提案對所有你最好整合你覺得怎麼樣是比較好的可以相容的可以處理的你要不要一次說清楚就不要保留了啦我知道沒有沒有我沒有說要保留齁就是"},{"start":15314.333,"end":15341.732,"text":"基本上就是剛才委員在討論的過程裡面那特別內委員所提到的齁就是最後一項裡面加一個必要詞那這樣子的話可以凸顯它的一個主...行政部門你同意這樣嗎?同意用必要詞好那我們第45條齁就依照...他們兩個的都一樣嗎?哪一個部分?好那就是職業團體的部分我們統一照剛剛所說的社會行政"},{"start":15343.063,"end":15348.247,"text":"第46條的部分職業團體主管機關轉請主管機關核准予以除名職業團體主管機關改成社會行政主管機關"},{"start":15369.761,"end":15396.964,"text":"那另外就是跟楊委員版本有比較不同的部分是有關於中間這一段第四行的部分您有加了一個其文翻法令應受除名處分者那我們這邊只有寫說其應受除名處分者差別只在這裡那為什麼是這樣呢是因為委員您可能要看一下第43條第43條有關於除名的事由是會在他的章程裡面去明定"},{"start":15397.424,"end":15405.87,"text":"所以這邊我們只要去續明說。好,謝謝。那最後那一個目的事業是刪除。對。好,那請教各位同仁有沒有要發言?針對於第46條照剛剛行政院版的內容除了將職業團體改為社會行政這樣子的修正文字通過有沒有意見?沒有。"},{"start":15422.18,"end":15450.827,"text":"好第46條來繼續第六章的章哲章銘負責大家都一樣我們就依照大家所提案的通過有沒有意見有沒有來第就通過第47條說委員的版本一致沒有那個他修正冬季有一個那個要不要我們發現什麼新型病害沒有關係啦尊重那個農業部的意見好那就如此我們就依照"},{"start":15452.16,"end":15459.408,"text":"這一個行政院版本跟陳素月委員第45條、邱議瑩第45條、羅廷偉第47條的文字通過有沒有意見?"},{"start":15466.008,"end":15485.663,"text":"第48條,大家問委員的是一致的。那邱議員委員可能一二項是把它結合在一起。其實他第二項應該是要拉上來。第48條大家文字是雷同,只是條序有所做偵檢。那第48條是不是依照"},{"start":15486.403,"end":15497.965,"text":"行政院版本陳素月委員第46條、楊瓊瓔版本第46條以及羅丁委員第48條以及拉蘭委員第48條的修正動議文字通過。有沒有意見?"},{"start":15499.246,"end":15522.412,"text":"沒有,好,來第49條第49條的部分有羅金惠委員跟行政院版本的提案文字沒同那我們是不是依照這三個版本通過文字有沒有意見有沒有意見第50條"},{"start":15524.773,"end":15532.119,"text":"五十條文字都一樣。條序陳素月第47條、邱議瑩第46條、楊瓊瓔第47條、羅天緯第50條還有一個賴論委員的第50條修正版本我們依照"},{"start":15543.841,"end":15562.391,"text":"共同文字通過有沒有意見沒有好第51條並同所有的條文喔那麼文字同一同那我們並所有的條文也就是陳素委員48條邱議員47條楊瓊瑩委員第48條還有羅天惠委員第51條以及這個誰"},{"start":15569.195,"end":15583.445,"text":"來論委員第51條條句不同但是文字內容一樣的文字通過為第51條有沒有意見沒有好我們再返回部分我們現在處理第5條來"},{"start":15585.826,"end":15591.194,"text":"委員我們第一款的部分這樣修正一專門職業及技術人員考試法規定經撤銷考試及格資格尚未屆滿三年"},{"start":15601.089,"end":15623.337,"text":"我們剛剛有講,忘了。應徹銷植物診療師考試及格,甚至資格尚未屆滿三年。這是第一款。那第二款我們讓他更清楚一點,應執行植物診療業務上有關之故意犯罪行為,後面都沒有改了。"},{"start":15624.67,"end":15652.838,"text":"那現在各位同仁現在就是第五條的部分原先是沒有年限那現在年限改為三年第一款三年第一款的部分改為就真定也不是真定還沒定啊就是第一條的部分就是直接入法三年請教各位委員意見還有限制是植物診療師的那個機格考試機格資格請教各位委員這樣子的"},{"start":15654.278,"end":15665.369,"text":"年限定路請到各位大家的意見第五條那如果同意我們就照修正文字通過我們還有第七條來請第七條"},{"start":15670.492,"end":15691.605,"text":"那個法規嘛,第五款的法規是不是?對,那法務部,我們建議還是維持法規啦。剛剛協調的結果。本來是法規,另外一個是什麼?法令。法令。好,那第七條的部分是不是照法規?好。文字通過。好。好,最後一條,第四十條。請說明。"},{"start":15697.013,"end":15721.852,"text":"剛剛已經說明我們的各級植物診療師公會有社會行政機關主管各位同仁第40條我們就是職業團體那個不依照109年我們全部就是以社會行政所有的條序全部調整為社會行政那第40條我們就正本全部社會行政請教各位"},{"start":15724.019,"end":15746.954,"text":"我們就照修正文字通過保留的部分我們已完成現在我們還有一個附帶決議請宣讀委員楊瓊瑩等人所提附帶決議請農業部於本法公布後應就罰則部分訂定一致性質裁罰基準以供各縣市主管機關遵行宣讀完畢有沒有意見"},{"start":15748.735,"end":15768.264,"text":"好,沒有意見我們會在決議照文字通過也請行政部門一定要加油我們剛剛有說了沒有給你寫在裡面但是你們要公布前一定要先跟22縣市大家討論過好嗎?大家有一個共識再公布好,現在我們請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":15775.72,"end":15794.748,"text":"宣讀《植物診療師法》結論法案名稱照案通過第一章張明照案通過第一條照行政院提案通過第二條照案通過第三條修正通過第四條照行政院提案及各委員提案修正動議與行政院提案相同"},{"start":15795.508,"end":15817.606,"text":"內容通過。第五條修正通過。第六條照行政院提案及各委員提案修正動議與行政院提案內容相同通過。第二張張明照案通過。第七條照行政院提案通過。第八條照行政院提案及各委員提案修正動議與行政院提案內容相同通過。第九條修正通過。"},{"start":15818.567,"end":15831.374,"text":"第10條、第11條、第12條、第13條、第14條均照該條行政院提案及各該委員提案修正動議與行政院提案內容相同通過。第15條照案通過。第16條、第17條、第18條均照該條與行政院提案"},{"start":15837.717,"end":15858.73,"text":"及各委員提案含修正動域跟行政院提案內容相同通過第三章章明照案通過第19條、第20條、第21條、第22條、第23條、第24條均照該條行政院提案及各委員提案修正動域與行政院提案內容相同通過第25條"},{"start":15860.953,"end":15876.388,"text":"照行政院提案及委員賴瑞榮所提修正動議通過。第26條照案通過。第27條照行政院提案及各委員提案修正動議與行政院提案內容相同通過。第4張張明照案通過。第28條、第29條、第30條、第31條、第32條均照該"},{"start":15882.773,"end":15901.388,"text":"該條行政院提案及各委員提案修正動議與行政院提案內容相同的通過委員陳素月等人所提第32條不予處理第33條照行政院提案通過第34條照行政院提案與委員羅廷偉等人所提通過第35條、第36條照"},{"start":15906.442,"end":15913.399,"text":"該條行政院提案與各該委員提案修正動議與行政院提案內容相同的通過。第五章張明照案通過。"},{"start":15915.373,"end":15944.736,"text":"第三十七條修正通過趙委員賴若榮所提修正任意第三十八條照案通過第三十九條修正通過第四十條修正通過第四十一條修正通過第四十二條修正通過第四十三條趙行政院提案通過第四十四條第四十五條第四十六條均修正通過第六張張明照案通過第四十七條趙行政院提案與各委員所提"},{"start":15948.015,"end":15967.205,"text":"與行政院提案內容相同通過第48條照行政院提案與各委員所提與修正動議與行政院提案所提內容相同通過第49條照行政院提案與各委員提案修正動議與行政院提案內容相同通過第50條第51條均照案通過通過附帶決議項宣讀完畢"},{"start":15974.107,"end":15996.181,"text":"好,請問各位同仁,照剛剛議事組人員所宣讀的協商結論通過,請問有無異議?好,謝謝,沒有異議,我們通過。那討論事項所列的植物診療師法草案並按審查完略凝聚審查報告,提報院會討論,請問需不需要經過黨團協商?"},{"start":16001.121,"end":16015.676,"text":"不用黨團結商號謝謝通過的條文相關的法制用語授權主席及議事組人員整理那麼我們本日議程處理完畢謝謝大家辛苦了散會謝謝所有的議事組人員"},{"start":16023.375,"end":16026.037,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":16065.84,"end":16074.668,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":16096.978,"end":16098.579,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"}]}},{"id":"16074","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16074","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d24c05d0b3147a607ad9f551ce5fa921f4f242ceca95778392a76b0d8f78ea8625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、繼續審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、繼續審查委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n七、繼續審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n八、繼續審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、繼續審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十、繼續審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、繼續審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、繼續審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、繼續審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、繼續審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、繼續審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、繼續審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、繼續審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、繼續審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、繼續審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、繼續審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、繼續審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、繼續審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、繼續審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、繼續審查委員萬美玲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、繼續審查委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(繼續進行逐條審查)）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-08T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T14:56:00+08:00","duration":23145,"影片長度":"06:25:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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事務決定事務確定﹖討論事項﹖一、繼續審查委員范雲等17人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案等26案﹖二、審查委員萬明等17人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案等26案﹖"},{"start":1850.835,"end":1872.228,"text":"進行逐條審查決議一、對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分,請相關機關介述與書面答覆。二、學生輔導法相關修正草案部分審查完略。未及審查部分另定於113年7月8日繼續審查。審查結果如下。一、第二條趙委員陳培淤等18人提案通過。二、第一條第三條修正通過。修理完畢。"},{"start":1874.346,"end":1900.316,"text":"好,請問各位委員,上一次的會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處?好,沒有,我們議事錄就確定。那我們今天的議程是繼續審查學生輔導法相關的修正草案共28案。那我們這個本日的議程呢,就曾烈委員羅廷威等19人擬具學生輔導法部分條文修正草案,還有委員廖偉祥等16人擬具學生輔導法部分條文修正草案等兩案,我們併案來做處理。"},{"start":1902.597,"end":1917.826,"text":"那我們今天來到我們現場的是有我們教育部長我們的鄭義耀鎮部長謝謝還有我們的林騰角林常務次長謝謝還有我們在場委員有范雲委員還有林一錦委員"},{"start":1919.497,"end":1934.711,"text":"好,其他委員都在陸續錄上當中。好,然後委員如果有臨時提案的話,我們就請於上午10點30分前提出。處理提案的時候,若提案委員及臨時委員均不在場,我們原力不予處理。那我們現在就繼續審查學生輔導法相關修正草案,進行討論跟協商。討論時如有新增修正動議,請議事人員一併宣讀。"},{"start":2003.544,"end":2028.656,"text":"好,謝謝各位,我們現在就開始審法案。好,那我就……"},{"start":2039.917,"end":2061.477,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 中 、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中 、繼續審查委員"},{"start":2063.772,"end":2064.394,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":2077.976,"end":2102.373,"text":"對,以後要這種聲音才可以我徵求各位委員的意見因為我們第四條上個禮拜討論非常多而且它牽涉到我們現在已經把第一項、第二項已經討論完畢特別是第二項十款有關於學資中心裡面的任務我們把它非常明確的確定我們上次會已經確定我們不要再繼續討論但是第三項、第四項因為牽涉到"},{"start":2105.015,"end":2107.137,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":2122.007,"end":2122.487,"text":"五、繼續審查委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":2149.897,"end":2169.512,"text":"今天我們除了有提案的版本之外我們旁邊一個欄位就特別放上院版各位你可以看得出來如果之前第10屆有在教育文化委員會的委員應該都可以看得出來不是我們現在提案版本第10屆委員我們從教育部送去給行政院的版本"},{"start":2170.673,"end":2194.103,"text":"長得一模一樣只有修正第十條本席還是要特別強調一年四個月只有第十條其他都是一致我不曉得為什麼反而要躺了一年四個月所以我們今天呢就從提案版本還有配合行政院的院版我們共同來做討論關於第五條來我們請提案的委員謝謝我們先從羅廷墨委員、外美林委員、范雲委員謝謝"},{"start":2195.558,"end":2223.4,"text":"再次感謝召委,我想我還是再次強調第五條第二項第一款的建議學生輔導諮詢會相關的專業人員應該包含職能治療師我想學生輔導的諮詢相關的從業人員應該加這個職能治療師我覺得是非常的重要啦因為這個我們學輔法第六條第二項第三款原條文已經充分強調專業的分工請教育部考量得以正面表列"},{"start":2224.522,"end":2244.431,"text":"方式來保留各專業職類的一個敘述以延續涵蓋學生多元需求的一個精神必力保障這個我們增進學生健康輔導的一個權益精神科職能治療師在心理衛生領域扮演著極其重要的一個角色在國內中東職能的治療師"},{"start":2245.311,"end":2259.097,"text":"等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林"},{"start":2272.262,"end":2289.792,"text":"因為他的任務包括精神治療的一個障礙以及幫助他們恢復功能提高生活品質具體任務涵蓋的功能評估以及制定治療的一個計畫透過詳細的一個評估了解個案的功能缺陷我們興趣目標以及制定個別化的一個治療計畫"},{"start":2291.893,"end":2306.251,"text":"運用多種的臨床推理以及參考的一個架構包括活動的任務安排、人際互動、獨立生活訓練、社交訓練以及幫助個案心理障礙的一個克服增加社區活動的一個機會"},{"start":2307.552,"end":2310.813,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案〉"},{"start":2335.62,"end":2347.286,"text":"德以《精神衛生法》第53條定定相關的專業人員修正。我想希望如果沒辦法列入職人知曉室的話,對不起我必須跟召會講,我就是希望能夠保留去協商,謝謝。"},{"start":2348.729,"end":2354.233,"text":"好 外邁林委員好 謝謝針對這一條我想簡單重點來講我想這個學生輔導諮詢會應該要能夠符合輔導需求的代表性專業性跟多元性所以在本條我的修法是增加專業人員的參與能夠提供專業的輔導意見讓諮詢會議發揮功能另外我們看到第二項第二款特別在我這個地方"},{"start":2374.008,"end":2397.131,"text":"我把原來的條文修成前款以外之學者專家那為什麼?因為我們看第一款的地方其實包含了包括專業人員、臨床心理師、諮商心理師還有社公司精神科醫師那第二款在第二款的部分那我如果把它寫的比較明確一點就前款以外之學者專家那這樣子比較不會有重複"},{"start":2398.092,"end":2413.733,"text":"adequate to the program, so it can increase the diversity of the student council.另外還有一個地方是在增加特教老師代表的部分,這個也很重要。另外還有一個地方是在增加特教老師代表的部分,這個也很重要。因為可以讓實際在特教現場對於比較多狀況的孩子們跟輔導需求能夠match在一起,才不會偏離實際的狀況。"},{"start":2415.855,"end":2425.859,"text":"最後我想增加學生代表這是大家應該都有一個共識的因為增加學生代表可以讓實際接受輔導的學生能夠充分的去反映他的需求讓諮詢會不會是上對下的單項意見那以上接下來我們請范雲委員"},{"start":2435.538,"end":2437.299,"text":"教育部的版本是不是可以說明一下能不能夠保障到有"},{"start":2462.614,"end":2463.895,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":2493.676,"end":2509.161,"text":"謝謝召委我想我是支持把這個相關的專業輔導人員清楚列出的這種寫法畢竟現在學生心理困擾這個樣態很白白腫那原因也相當多元所以我需要依這個學院的狀況而有不同的這個專業人員來介入協助"},{"start":2509.901,"end":2510.061,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":2543.939,"end":2565.558,"text":"第二項第七款,過去學生輔導諮詢會並沒有學生代表,但希望能夠以學生為主體為中心,所以我也建議與納入學生代表,謝謝。好,那我們是不是請最後一部針對可能要增加職能治療師還有包括其他委員的相關意見,好不好?"},{"start":2569.106,"end":2589.296,"text":"我請大家先看我們的這個題彙版的第19頁第19頁為什麼要先從第6條談起第6條在第6條的第二項的第三款談到處意性輔導的時候有提到針對困難的學生"},{"start":2590.276,"end":2613.994,"text":"可能依照他的輔導需求要結合心理治療、社會工作、家庭輔導、智能治療、法律服務、精神醫療等各類資源與專業服務提供整合性的服務。好,智能治療需不需要?需要。在處遇性的輔導的時候碰到困難的個案真的有一部分學生會是需要智能治療,確實是。那大家回到那個第13頁。大家看一下我們現在修正的條文。"},{"start":2621.636,"end":2622.299,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":2630.896,"end":2649.933,"text":"對不起,應該是第十四頁,對,抱歉,頁數說錯了。第十四頁各位可以看,現行條文用的是概括性的敘述,就是只有精神,因包含精神可以單獨列出來。後面他用的就是相關專業人員,都沒有名列心理師、社工師。"},{"start":2652.721,"end":2672.311,"text":"對,那這個部分我們在修正後其實已經把臨床心理師、諮詳心理師跟社工師放在跟精神科同樣一個位階。他們都是相當輔導非常核心重要的專業人員。所以立在第一款。但請記住他包括並沒有以這幾款為限。"},{"start":2676.712,"end":2701.799,"text":"第二項還有相關學者專家所以如果各主管機關覺得有需要是可以邀但先說要不要列列了那就完蛋了我跟你們講第6條的輔導處理師他列了好多啊包括心理治療、社工...抱歉其實已經喊過了那我們會建議不特別列是因為列舉不完啦"},{"start":2703.4,"end":2706.986,"text":"不是啦,我覺得你要從務實層面來看因為羅廷偉委員他是會非常幫職能治療師來做發聲他們希望能夠納入但是這邊有一個很現實的問題在我們一般開會當中你要把它放到諮詢委員會你知道這諮詢委員是每個月要定期召開"},{"start":2719.884,"end":2733.671,"text":"每個月你要定期幾乎就是要定期召開要發展全校的學生輔導工作全校的學生輔導工作那如果增加職能這要是在全校的學生性的輔導工作來說他要被要求來召開的話他可能煩不勝煩這可能你要幫他為務實上面來做一個考量所以如果要幫他發聲的話要把考量在第六條的最後的部分裡面來做調整這是務實的考量這不是說我們要排開在外"},{"start":2746.997,"end":2771.042,"text":"而是他都是要定期討論全校性的輔導一般性的工作如果說他把它放到諮詢委員會他畢竟是這樣的工作他都要進來那這樣對他自己的專業上面的時間跟配給是不是有我個人覺得是在實務的考量可能要知道但是我也了解羅委員他對他們的一個發聲可不可以在第6條的最後裡面把它放進去而不是放在諮詢會議當中這可能比較更務實來去探討啦思考一下好來范議委員"},{"start":2782.554,"end":2808.646,"text":"因為羅委員那個意見比較是在相關的個案的時候那剛剛教育部有講到說就是這裡的第三相關學者專家如果有需要的時候也可以徵詢那是不是能夠在條文說明中講到說有處遇性的時候那需要這個職能治療的部分讓他有個空間在特定的狀況那這樣就雙方的部分都可以保存到因為剛剛林宜瑾委員有說張雅琳委員也有同樣的意見好不好 OK"},{"start":2809.246,"end":2815.608,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":2833.655,"end":2846.527,"text":"我想是不是可以在第5條的第2項的第一款跟第二款的那個立法說明裡頭去含掛引述第6條儲遇性要連結的這些專業服務的東西。聽委委員這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":2855.373,"end":2862.6,"text":"因為這是比較一個務實的做法啦。否則諮詢委員,我跟你說諮詢委員真的是常常開會的。給我幾分鐘好不好。給你幾分鐘,所以呢。好。我們往下。不是啦,但我還是要強調我們今天這個會議我們不要每次都保留,因為委員會"},{"start":2872.569,"end":2880.514,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2901.203,"end":2922.51,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學"},{"start":2931.654,"end":2935.437,"text":"五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":2951.09,"end":2968.703,"text":"五之一目前來說的話有范雲委員陳培宇委員還有葛如君委員萬美玲委員還有羅廷偉委員然後我們在這個所謂的修正對就是這幾位委員來五之一有沒有想有沒有人要發言的范雲委員林宜瑾委員張雅琳委員謝謝"},{"start":2972.692,"end":2983.524,"text":"這個五之一主要是就是學生輔導應該要以兒童兒少的最佳利益為主那我這邊的版本是增加了領有心理師證書之專業輔導人員對問成年學生執行輔導諮商業務時如今該學生同意"},{"start":2990.131,"end":3001.056,"text":"並經由學校召開個案會議評估該學生有此需求,未符合兒少最佳利益的不受心理施法第19條限制,在未經法定代理人同意下執行。"},{"start":3007.199,"end":3018.443,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔"},{"start":3035.729,"end":3059.526,"text":"你們後來決定納入的原因,那我就沒有其他的意見關於這第五條之一。好,謝謝。好,接下來林宜瑾委員。好,謝謝主席。第五條之一,我想依照這個兒童權利公認的意旨,本法有新增加入兒少最佳利益原則以及這個兒少表意權的內容,這個本席深感認同。因為在現在這個時代,我們不應"},{"start":3060.026,"end":3060.446,"text":"張雅琳等"},{"start":3088.022,"end":3088.963,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":3116.934,"end":3117.335,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":3126.34,"end":3148.589,"text":"對,謝謝我想這一條我是非常支持這個強化學生輔導應該是以維護兒少的最佳利益為原則當然還是同時也以學生為中心我們這邊看到教育部建議板有特別提到就是符合兒童及少年的最佳利益還有一些相關的描述在後面反而行政院通過的條文在這一塊"},{"start":3150.53,"end":3150.991,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":3177.168,"end":3190.027,"text":"首先說明擺放的位置在第二頁第一條陳秀寶委員也曾經主張把我們的五之一放在第一條的第二第三項第三第四項說錯了那"},{"start":3192.149,"end":3216.995,"text":"張雅琳為有建議放在第12條之一,不過我想因為我們在院板審查的,因為是院板的條文,院板在審查的時候有很謹慎,包括行政院法規會等等也參與協助,覺得擺放在第5條之一可能比較適合,建議可以採納院板。第二點要說明的是,增加第三項的部分,原本第一項在第二項討論的,它比較屬於概念性的、理念性的。"},{"start":3217.515,"end":3244.41,"text":"那確實在實務操作上如果有更具體的規範對學校遵循是更好的所以我們增加了第三項那第三項部分因為有涉及到衛福部要排除心理師法第19條的限制所以我有事先跟衛福部有溝通衛福部有建議我們就是把德不受心理師法第19條之規定限制這幾個文字拿掉直接由德"},{"start":3245.75,"end":3257.997,"text":"等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":3265.747,"end":3282.464,"text":"謝謝,我們現在提案版本比行政院版本增加第三項我覺得在這個整個的意旨上面是比較明確一點了對,來,等下衛福部說明一下主席各位長官大家好那其實衛福部建議其實是採行政院版本那我們理由如下"},{"start":3283.224,"end":3307.121,"text":"心理師法第19條第二項是一個行政的規定立法的目的主要是強化醫事人員落實告知同意的這樣的義務並沒有一律限制限縮解釋為必須取得法定代言人的同意那實務上其實在為取得法定代言人上我們去了解實務上主要可能是因為未成年的兒少可能因為法定代言人認為有民法上面的這個侵權的這個問題所以可能會導致這個心理師"},{"start":3312.165,"end":3320.792,"text":"在執行相關服務的時候會有法律上訴訟的一些爭議但是為立學生輔導法專業人員執行學生輔導業務的順利我們建議學生輔導法的第五條之一以續名相關人員執行法定職務為目的那這樣子的話可以強化執行法定職務的重要性避免違反其他法律的規定"},{"start":3338.266,"end":3353.303,"text":"所以本部建議相關的這個法條的草案不需要去特別提到不受心理事法第19條的限制避免怪異漏外因為我們19條心理事法第19條第二項也是要回到兒少最佳利益以上"},{"start":3355.54,"end":3379.302,"text":"好范議委員這個衛福部的回應我不大能理解喔心理師法第19條裡面就有寫到說心理師執行業務時應尊重個案當事人之文化背景不得因其性別、族群、社經、地位、職業年齡、語言、宗教或出身地不同而有差別待遇並應取得個案當事人或其法定待遇人之同意及告知其應有之權益"},{"start":3380.203,"end":3399.381,"text":"那這裡為什麼要排除對不對就是因為你這邊心理師法明文就這樣寫所以這邊才會覺得應該加上得不受心理師法第19條規定之限制那主要就是為了兒少權益而且這是學校的機構相對來講已經對兒少權益是比較有保障了所以不知道衛福部為什麼這樣回應"},{"start":3400.662,"end":3426.264,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們心理師法裡面是明定說應經本人或法定代理人並不是去特別就是說我剛剛提到的不是針對未成年人而限制應告知法定代理人但是學校跟心理師他們會有不同的詮釋跟擔憂那實務上就是因為大家會以為一定要經起法定代理人"},{"start":3426.744,"end":3449.316,"text":"那你這邊宣稱的禍可是現場的實際狀況校園中不是這樣理解所以我們認為這樣明定比較能夠讓就是專業輔導諮商的時候不會被校長或是各方面有這個擔憂或者是家長拿這條來處理所以我們的考量是這樣那教育部也同意所以衛福部不知道就是為什麼覺得不要放"},{"start":3449.716,"end":3456.287,"text":"好,等一下,我們先請委員完在這統一來發言。我們先,對不起,我們先是侯孟楷委員、冠成培宇委員,謝謝。"},{"start":3462.798,"end":3491.176,"text":"五條之一我想大家都同意也希望是說能夠增強我們這個輔導的人員的這個權限或說至少能夠更積極的介入啦但是在這一個部分我想大家也應該要這個也請這個召委應該要看一下大家一起來看一下因為《心理師法》第19條其實它寫得也蠻完整而且它其實法條明文規定的是說各案當事人或法定代理人的同意所以其實那個時候定的是或嘛"},{"start":3491.556,"end":3511.547,"text":"那或就是二則一嘛,所以說如果說有個案當事人同意的話,你就不需要法定代言人的同意嘛。那我想在這個部分是不是能夠綜合,因為如果說你要把它給放進去不受《心理師法》第19條,但其實第19條裡面寫的有包括說一開始開宗明義講心理師要遵守專業倫理維護個案當事人的福祉嘛。"},{"start":3514.349,"end":3533.592,"text":"所以如果說你寫我就以明文規定寫說不授第19條這樣感覺怪怪應該是說綜合委員的意見能不能請我們行政部門在說明欄裡面說明就說學校或者是我們召開相關的個案會議的時候只要得到"},{"start":3534.718,"end":3562.71,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案的同意,就能夠來做這個相關的一個執行。」我講這才是符合兒童跟少年的最佳利益嘛。是不是?因為大家的意思其實是這樣。所以說如果說是用說明的部分,但不要寫說不受心理師法第19條,因為其實心理師法第19條是蠻正向的寫法。這完全沒有任何的那個就很正向的寫法。所以說如果我們明白的明文寫說不受心理師法第19條,反而會有點奇怪啊。以上謝謝。"},{"start":3565.558,"end":3589.751,"text":"好 謝謝主席我相信所有委員剛剛的發言應該都是基於CRC第三條的規定也就是一旦涉及兒少相關事務應以兒少最佳利益為考量我要告訴衛福部你們知不知道在很多的教育現場很多的家長是不願意他的孩子進入任何一個階段的輔導他們甚且認為老師的輔導可能是為孩子貼上標籤甚且有"},{"start":3594.714,"end":3606.543,"text":"等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林"},{"start":3619.994,"end":3621.095,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":3643.308,"end":3669.758,"text":"不受心理施法第19條取得法定代理人同意之限制。那我們覺得這個精神非常非常的重要,不要讓孩子落入學校想要幫忙他,孩子也想要被幫忙,但是一旦有家長站出來主張他不想要他的小孩被幫忙,那這件事情請問我們的孩子的利益該放在哪裡?以上,謝謝。好,周雅琳委員。我也想請教一下就是說因為衛福部其實是CRC的主管機關嘛,那我們現在如果假設在學校現場裡面,小孩"},{"start":3670.498,"end":3695.803,"text":"已經進入到處遇性輔導,情況比較危急了,他要接受,可是他的家長反對的時候,那學校可以提供給他服務嗎?學校應該要依照誰?如果家長非常,就像剛剛培語講的那個案例,學校如果家長非常反應強烈的時候,小孩到底要如何得到他的照顧,這個可不可以請你說明一下?好,來,衛福部需要針對這一條,我們還是以修法的條文來看怎麼樣處置會比較好吧,來衛福部。"},{"start":3696.858,"end":3716.495,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那我們還是重申就是我們建議就是這個行政院版本那理由就像剛剛說的其實我們在執行心理施法的時候我們還是要回到兒少的最佳利益那另外一個是說心理施法第19條第二項並沒 是一個行政的規定它其實也沒有相關的法則"},{"start":3717.296,"end":3727.159,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續�"},{"start":3743.985,"end":3750.234,"text":"我覺得在學校的現場提供這樣子的一個心理師的介入並沒有問題以上"},{"start":3753.402,"end":3781.324,"text":"我想我重申我們今天在這邊都是討論第五之一都是以學生的最大利益做考量但目前為止有一些的落差即從務實面來看剛曾培元委員也特別提到我說實在目前為止有很多生經科的醫師根本就不敢看未成年的學生好不好這是一個現場很多的家長也拒簽這是我們所看到第一線的一個狀況所以大家都是要尋求學生的最大的一個利益我們是不是"},{"start":3782.105,"end":3808.247,"text":"建議還是根據我們大家的討論還有包括很多委員討論還是尊重我們的提案版本就是把這個具有心理證書就大家可以看這上面的這個我們所謂的提案的版本也是得不受心理施法第19條之限制在未經法定代理人統一下執行大家是不是建議還是把這塊放進去可以嗎OK好那我們51條就照我們提案版本通過謝謝來第6條應該要放進去謝謝"},{"start":3812.025,"end":3837.83,"text":"第六條目前為止。來說的話有范雲版本、林宜瑾版本、張雅琳版本、黃秀芳委員版本。對不起喔,我省略了委員好不好。那柯真版本、陳培宇版本、陳秀寶的版本、葛如君的版本、郭國文的版本、還有莊瑞雄的版本、還有萬美玲的版本、還有羅廷偉的版本,還有包括我們現在的現行法。來,有沒有誰要提不出來?"},{"start":3839.467,"end":3842.983,"text":"陳佩玉委員、張雅琳委員、萬美玲委員、林宜瑾委員、范雲委員。"},{"start":3845.275,"end":3869.028,"text":"謝謝主席。我們辦公室的版本是希望先後順序的用詞改調,主要是因為它其實是同時性,它其實不是那麼固定的階段性的內容,所以這個部分也要請教育部注意。另外在針對實驗教育的部分,范委員的版本有提到有第11條的附帶決議,要求教育部要在三個月內嚴禮對於實驗教育學生輔導資源的提供。"},{"start":3870.249,"end":3892.201,"text":"因為之前我們上個禮拜討論的時候是不是等一下可以請范雲委員講一下這個部分因為對於實驗教育的部分我覺得還有一些需要討論的部分那另外好就先這樣謝謝不好意思我第6條是不是可以跟並這個6之1一起要討論因為目前6之1只有陳培余的版本好不好我們一起兩個都可以一起來討論然後呢接下來我們請張雅琳委員"},{"start":3900.859,"end":3929.059,"text":"關於我的版本的重點基本上就是說因為學生的心理行為和社會體多樣且複雜很難明顯地去區隔問題的行為發展階段所以學生輔導不應該直接套用三級預防概念並且以時間的順序來進行以及那個區分專業分工這樣會導致介入性的輔導必須等待發展性的輔導後無效之後他才能夠介入或者是說主義性輔導必須等待介入性輔導無效之後才能介入的問題所以這樣可能就會來不及所以我"},{"start":3929.899,"end":3943.582,"text":"這個部分還有就是說這個儲遇性的輔導應該要結合各類的資源跟專業服務但是不限於心理治療跟社會工作家庭輔導那我也看到運版跟提配討論版本都有把那個治療放進來我就是非常的感謝 謝謝"},{"start":3948.277,"end":3974.554,"text":"我想第六條其實非常的重要因為我們過去的三級輔導其實在這個接觸孩子的即時性上面其實有很大的問題我們在這個委員會答詢的時候都有特別提出來所以在我修正的版本當中在第二項的第二款跟第三款的部分我有做一些文字上的修正那包括就是把原來的線型的版本經前款發展性輔導仍無法有效滿足其需求"},{"start":3978.597,"end":3999.335,"text":"當一關不行後才要到下一關文字的部分我把它刪掉了簡單來說在第二項第二款部分介入性輔導我們直接說針對有個別性個別化輔導需求或適應欠佳情緒困擾行為偏差自傷然後遭受疏忽及虐待風險等"},{"start":4000.396,"end":4011.104,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人�"},{"start":4024.173,"end":4048.21,"text":"持續校內輔導外經評估人需校外輔導資源借物或追蹤處理這是在文字上修正簡單來講就是我們希望能夠打破過去當第一級輔導不行的時候才進入到第二級第二級不行再來第三級這樣可能會緩不濟急所以我們希望在孩子每一個狀況都可以來到他最及時可以的那一級輔導以上"},{"start":4053.513,"end":4053.773,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":4062.79,"end":4065.971,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":4091.558,"end":4116.96,"text":"問題行為實務上很難去明確區分發展的階段因此本席認為不應該把三級預防的概念加入明確的順序學生輔導應該是累計性的輔導沒有在某個級別或者進到另一個級別就沒有其他級的事所以本席認為應該要拿掉具有時間順序的字眼"},{"start":4117.66,"end":4125.049,"text":"另外,行為偏差也要針對介入性輔導,因為我們一定要強化及早的發現及早介入的概念。以上,謝謝。"},{"start":4133.092,"end":4137.233,"text":"我這一條主要就是針對輔資中心他在處理處於性輔導的時候的角色我蠻關心的因為原本教育部的意見好像會讓輔資中心這邊覺得是比較被動也謝謝教育部跟我溝通之後目前教育部這邊提會討論版本已經包含要和輔資中心"},{"start":4158.539,"end":4158.999,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":4175.231,"end":4190.295,"text":"所以這個第一個問題要請教育部確認一下你們這個題會討論版本是不是這樣子讓我們各界可以放心那針對六條之一這個部分我是支持的就是我們能夠明定教育教職員對輔導的配合義務那這部分蠻重要的會有利於學生輔導工作的進展"},{"start":4196.417,"end":4197.138,"text":"陳培宜委員陳培宜委員"},{"start":4216.078,"end":4229.845,"text":"但這個資訊很多人不知道所以其實因為實驗教育學生也會掛在每個學校嘛他本來就可以有資格用這個資源所以我的附帶決議是說本來就有試用但部分學生跟家長不了解相關資源請教育部3個月內嚴寧加強實驗教育學生輔導資源的提供宣傳"},{"start":4235.647,"end":4238.549,"text":"陳佩玉委員、許智傑委員、郭育晴委員、吳佩玉委員"},{"start":4255.359,"end":4276.541,"text":"好,謝謝主席。剛剛主席有Q我六之一,那我就直接講我們的版本。目前其實我們提出六之一。那這個版本其實是來自於學生輔導法實行細則第七條,可是我要用力地強調為什麼我們要把實行細則內容拉到母法來處理。我想要用一個比較悲傷的案例來說明,之前封中個案的時候就是學校裡面"},{"start":4277.122,"end":4278.243,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案〉案〉"},{"start":4305.7,"end":4312.945,"text":"不管是積極的配合或是消極的配合甚至做出反輔導的行為其實屢屢對學生造成傷害常常是我們在現場看到的狀況所以我們才會積極的主張要把學生輔導法實行細則第7條拉到母法來處理而且我們的寫法比較強硬我們甚至認為對於訂定輔導方案還有計畫學校應邀請學校行政人員相關教師還有輔導教師而不是得邀請"},{"start":4331.938,"end":4342.025,"text":"adequate to the school curriculum, the school's staff members should cooperate with the counseling program or the planning regulations."},{"start":4362.358,"end":4365.72,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":4396.379,"end":4417.551,"text":"主席大家好這個三級跟這個時序我是蠻嚴重的反對啦因為我在學校裡面我們待過我當過訓導主任跟補校主任所以學生的狀況你說要這樣子去嚴格的劃分其實真的是非常的不容易你只要接觸到務實的學生的狀況他有可能"},{"start":4418.251,"end":4424.694,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件及文化委員長林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件及文化委員"},{"start":4435.62,"end":4436.001,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":4452.962,"end":4455.726,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":4470.863,"end":4488.509,"text":"另外我所知道的像是高中行政主師他們其實不太一樣在有一些是沒有設組長的情況之下那又要避免這個輔導老師他去負擔行政工作是不是也相對的也會影響到這個輔導的一個工作那另外還有就是如果要鼓勵這個輔導教師去精進輔導的一個專業針對有取得執照的輔導的教師是不是也應該要給予一些獎勵以上 謝謝好 謝謝然後過來是吳佩儀委員"},{"start":4502.937,"end":4509.843,"text":"這個我們一直在關注的就是有很多可能有需要輔導的個案但是沒有確實的被評估然後沒有獲得應該要的輔導但我在這個現在這個文字當中我會比較關注的是第一個我現在在處理性輔導當中才看到了家庭輔導四個字但是在前面兩個階段的個案其實都有可能"},{"start":4524.737,"end":4526.158,"text":"當中提供評估轉介機制進行個案管理及輔導那談論在這個階段就有需要家庭輔導的話那我們是由哪個單位來啟動什麼樣的機制會"},{"start":4542.387,"end":4560.87,"text":"來加入家庭教育中心的這個介入輔導協助嗎這個希望教育部等會可以說明另外關於緊急個案應該要如何被定義那因為我們看到很多就是他也許是緊急個案但是如果在我們現在修了之後這個程序裡面他還是沒有能夠確實的被評估為是緊急而沒有獲得適當的處置的話這個會不會是我現在擔心的一個問題這等會請教育部也可以說明謝謝還有沒有好現在請教育部先說明一下"},{"start":4576.586,"end":4589.374,"text":"第6條的修正確實如同委員所說我們希望把大家對現行條文的誤解以為發展性、介入性跟處理性是有時間的順序而且必須要循序漸進來進行"},{"start":4590.755,"end":4614.034,"text":"現在改為不是依照時間順序而是依照學生輔導需求的樣態來做處理這個是我們修法的主要精神感謝委員的支持第二個部分是有關於實驗教育的這一塊目前國中小因為屬於義務教育學生都設有學籍高中依法入學設有學籍的學生"},{"start":4614.654,"end":4638.011,"text":"因為都有涉及,所以他都可以使用目前涉及學校的這個輔導室。如果有輔導需求,輔導室可以提供相關的資源。但如同委員所說,有一塊在高中階段的實驗教育的學習者未必具有學生的身份。這一塊因為沒有涉及學校,將來應該是要由縣市的主管機關的輔資中心來提供輔導資源。"},{"start":4639.592,"end":4663.413,"text":"這一塊因為陳培宇委員還有范雲委員都有提出附帶決議。我們是建議布里頭這邊可以接受附帶決議。但時程上面范委員提供的是三……原本提的都是三個月啦。不過我們認為未具學籍的那一塊由輔資中心來提供協助,可能需要會同地方主管機關來做討論,而且可能會涉及到比較細緻的部分。"},{"start":4664.634,"end":4686.542,"text":"所以我們建議是時程上可以修改成6個月之後我們來做配合辦理那其次有關於外委員提到有關於要把那個危機事件納入介入性輔導的部分首先說明因為林宜瑾理委員有建議第6條可以新增一項針對緊急的個案經由主管機關會同學生"},{"start":4687.683,"end":4709.563,"text":"幾由學校會同學生輔助中心會商評估確有需求之後就可以做轉介處理性輔導的工作。應該也是因應這個危機事件的同樣一個道理。我們是建議可以採行題彙版的文字而不是在介入心裡頭特別把危機事件放進去。因為危機事件的定義可能包含各種類型。"},{"start":4710.504,"end":4713.445,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案〉案〉"},{"start":4739.071,"end":4753.436,"text":"包括介入性跟儲遇性都要輔導的啦所以我們現在第6條的最後一項建議在這個預有緊急個案前面加上高級中等以下學校可能需要加因為高中階段有輔導老師有"},{"start":4754.957,"end":4756.118,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案〉案〉"},{"start":4784.651,"end":4801.357,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 第1、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第1、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第1、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第1、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第1、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條"},{"start":4811.761,"end":4822.325,"text":"五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":4840.572,"end":4842.613,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4863.325,"end":4873.713,"text":"我也非常贊同最後一項一定要放進去就我們自己長期這個做這個諮商輔導的一個經驗其實它是還是要有根據這個東西來做一個類別否則就像諮商一個急診室的一個概念每個人都要往急診去從到時候就造成一個大塞車的一個狀況所以它還是有層次不是時間序而是層次的差別而且那個我們提案的版本的最後這我也非常的贊同就預有緊急個案軍學校會同學生輔導諮商中心召開"},{"start":4891.887,"end":4911.21,"text":"單案或個案的會議的必要性,然後得轉介處遇性的一個輔導,就隨時都會有一個,萬一發生一般性完全預料之外的一件事情當中,我們還有一個這樣的東西來當作一個防火牆,這比院版來說我個人覺得會是比較是更加的一個完整了好不好。"},{"start":4911.65,"end":4923.401,"text":"所以大家是不是看一下提案版本如果大家覺得這個提案版本然後每一個人的宗旨每一個人的剛剛委員所提到的這些意見如果說都能夠反映在我們所提案的版本當中我們是不是就到提案版本來通過好 等一下我們先遛先先先先先遛 來"},{"start":4930.142,"end":4957.064,"text":"先看一下,如果大家都充分發言完發現這個東西完全能夠反映大家的一個意識的話我們就照提案版本來做處理好不好這個提案版本我沒有意見我是針對剛剛司長講的就是實驗學校的學生的部分那其實你們回應給我的時候本來就講到高中部分就是沒有涉及的學校學籍的部分本來就可以依照實驗教育法第18條就是縣市的"},{"start":4959.426,"end":4961.368,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":4971.992,"end":4995.387,"text":"我說明因為那個范委員是在第11條提附帶決議陳培宇委員是在第6條提附帶決議兩個的內容其實一個比較詳細一個比較整體但兩個時程原本都提的是三個月但部裡頭在評估的時候原本范委員是建議三個月是可以接受的但是第6條的附帶決議是建議要六個月那這個可能這個是國家署這邊可以來補充一下 謝謝"},{"start":5004.277,"end":5008.468,"text":"跟召委及各位委員也補充,剛剛委員所提的"},{"start":5009.788,"end":5036.966,"text":"國中小的部分沒有問題那本來就是在學校就可以運用到高中分兩種有學級無學級有學級的在學校層級可以用當然晚第三級也可以用那無學級的只有第三級的連結了在實況上這樣的連結我個人覺得還蠻低度的並沒有真正很容易發揮作用它比較散所以我覺得這件事情如果我們要好好做"},{"start":5038.107,"end":5039.569,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":5053.829,"end":5054.109,"text":"五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":5078.973,"end":5089.111,"text":"你們是不是自己寫一下一個版本三個月到六個月的齁那這樣子我覺得其實喔就是說表示原來的宣傳很不到位真的也是有點傷害他們的權益啦好不好好OK好"},{"start":5096.38,"end":5113.743,"text":"先說陳P委員的提案,我們態度上是非常支持的,因為他大部分的規範都來自原本現行的學生輔導法的實行細則。裡頭有調修的部分就是讓學校的主動性更強一點,原本是德,前面改成一個因。"},{"start":5114.324,"end":5138.8,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案》案。netes, 陳培一委還有一個新增的條文就是針對第二項到第五項的輔導方案或計畫,學校教職員均應與職者範圍內予以配合。這是如同剛才陳培一委所說明的。我們從特殊的個案來看就發現學校處事的整合並不好。"},{"start":5139.82,"end":5160.126,"text":"所以學務處根本不甩輔導室那所以列入這樣的一個條文我想是應該將來是具有引導性的可以更說得更清楚所以我們贊成那唯一就是剛才特別提到這一塊第三項後面希望加高級中等以下學校所以我們建議能夠參採題會版但加上高中以下對對對黃色標示的部分"},{"start":5162.867,"end":5163.707,"text":"等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5183.792,"end":5210.109,"text":"行為偏差或遭受重大創傷經驗。我想創傷經驗就已經涵蓋剛剛萬美林所提出來的個別的這些的項目當中。還有找辨識、發現及時介入這些比較清楚。依其需求定立個別化之輔導方案或計劃提供諮詢、個別諮詢、小團體輔導及其他有助於學生輔導措施並提供評估展借機制進行個案管理及輔導。那我們再看往下往下往下"},{"start":5213.565,"end":5214.345,"text":"第三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":5234.213,"end":5234.393,"text":"來,孟凱委員。"},{"start":5259.271,"end":5283.79,"text":"感謝召委我想對於我們提案版本席沒有意見我也覺得這樣子算是蠻完整但是只有其中一點大家看一下我想可能請教育部再說明一下就是現行法條在介入性輔導裡面現行法條是有一句重複發生問題行為但我們現在提願版是把它給修掉改成是情緒困擾跟行為偏差"},{"start":5285.211,"end":5308.862,"text":"因為說實在現行法條有這個重複發生問題行為可能那時候有這樣子的樣態所以我想說是不是還是保留重複發生問題行為這幾個字可能會對於我們在實務界上來講可能有一些行為它不一定是真的有到情緒困擾或是行為偏差那麼的嚴重那但是它是一而再再而三發生那也可以適用介入性輔導"},{"start":5310.023,"end":5321.716,"text":"我講這可能是相對比較完整因為現行法條有這樣子但是你現在提願版是把它給修掉那如果說我們把它保留這樣的部分可能會比更加完整那其他的文字我沒有意見以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":5327.277,"end":5350.828,"text":"先說明發展性輔導是針對百分之百的學生每一位但只要學生有個別的需求出來它就會變成是介入性輔導所以不管它是不是重複發生它有發生它就是已經有個案的需求需要輔導了所以我會建議不用寫重複發生這是第一個但大家會認為說以為介入性輔導全部都是"},{"start":5351.388,"end":5353.67,"text":"陳佩玉委員的部分你們就"},{"start":5371.577,"end":5392.745,"text":"說明一下我們是建議就是採納陳培宇委員的建議唯一小小調整的部分是有關於那個積極協助課業的那一塊我們會把它放在因為他有輔導需求所以需要彈性的處理出缺期以及成績考察的那一塊的脈絡底下做積極性的課業協助這樣可能比較完整目前提會版本就是"},{"start":5400.959,"end":5421.128,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。謝謝主席,謝謝學特斯。沒有問題,我覺得就是謝謝教育部的版本。那我最後確定一下,剛剛那個附帶決議的部分目前你是希望改成幾個月?三到六個月嗎?"},{"start":5425.995,"end":5426.836,"text":"三、繼續審查委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":5456.232,"end":5459.114,"text":"范雲委員林宜瑾委員張雅琳委員黃秀芳委員許智傑委員柯志恩委員陳培宇委員陳秀寶委員郭國文委員"},{"start":5490.074,"end":5508.003,"text":"范雲委員、張雅琳委員這條也非常的重要,因為這條第7條主要是在講學校的責任跟資源的結合那對於就是原本的中途錯學、長期缺課、中途離校、身心障礙、特殊境遇、文化及境遇弱勢等的輔導"},{"start":5508.803,"end":5509.964,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":5523.894,"end":5524.074,"text":"二、繼續審查委員"},{"start":5545.34,"end":5546.461,"text":"接下來張雅琳委員然後林宜瑾委員"},{"start":5576.37,"end":5592.831,"text":"在第7條部分我有提出一個修正動議,最主要就是說把督導的機制放進去,因為我們在現行的法規裡面並沒有督導的這個機制,那可是其實即便是內部的督導或是外部的團體督導或是對,內部跟外部的團體,內部或是外部或團體的督導"},{"start":5593.732,"end":5593.792,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":5614.915,"end":5640.321,"text":"加上這個原本我的條文是第二項的部分是學校各行政單位應共同推動及執行第六條第三級輔導相關措施協助群上人員落實其輔導職責並安排輔導相關活動之實施那我現在加入了即建立專業督導機制其組織方式評論內容及講補助之實施辦法由中央主管機關定職謝謝"},{"start":5650.323,"end":5670.289,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 行政單位安排輔導課程及活動以外,其他例如資商輔導的使用空間、校內外相關人士或法定通報等,都需要行政單位來支援。"},{"start":5672.29,"end":5696.329,"text":"所以本席有增加相關的文字希望能讓跨處式的這個合作更順那另外第三項本席原本先把反覆自我傷害列入有輔導需求的學生對象考量到這樣寫可能會只有反覆自傷才會列入那反而排除掉自我傷害行為的學生但自傷這個行為是有一次就很嚴重了齁"},{"start":5697.25,"end":5704.597,"text":"因此本席可以修正把反覆的字詞拿掉但必須要納入自我傷害以上 謝謝"},{"start":5709.798,"end":5727.09,"text":"陳培語委員在我們辦公室的版本裡面我們特別加上的一些現況其實目前非常多高中以下的學生經常遇到的事情可是這些事情我特別寫出來包含物質濫用、網路成癮、自殺意念、自殺企圖"},{"start":5728.391,"end":5752.29,"text":"為什麼要特別寫出來?主要是希望針對這次在修法的時候把相關這些現象的描述讓更多的現場老師或者是教職員包含前面6支所提到的教職員大家必須要對這些事情有一個基本的認知並且認為這些事情是有機會在學校完成每一個階段的輔導工作所以我們還是希望把它加進去以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":5753.735,"end":5758.093,"text":"好,謝謝教育部。請根據委員的做事先回應。"},{"start":5760.192,"end":5783.431,"text":"第七條,針對自我傷害的部分已經列入第三項的文字修正。感謝各位委員的協助以及支持關心。另外有關於要建議在第七條有關學校的權責的部分,建議要增加建立督導機制的部分。我先說明一下,因為第七條各位可以看到它整個學校的主體,這條條文是以學校為主體的。"},{"start":5784.432,"end":5785.552,"text":"兩、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":5803.058,"end":5809.82,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":5831.691,"end":5840.296,"text":"第7條就是加入了自我傷害這是每個委員都會特別提出來的那其他的字句就是照我們題會版本來做通過"},{"start":5844.734,"end":5868.491,"text":"來修正文字來我們看一下好不好各位我不用再念了就把紅字看一下可以嗎加入了第四自我傷害然後呢也加入了學生校外生活輔導會少年輔導委員會等字句可以哈好那七之一呢等一下主席不好意思主席主席主席主席當沒有回應我的部分呢可不可以請司長再說明一下"},{"start":5875.052,"end":5895.542,"text":"因為輔導的需求的樣態相當複雜多元我們目前在第6條還是第12條的立法說明應該有非常完整的敘述我們建議在條文上面可能不需要把它定得太細以免會有遺漏的狀況以上說明"},{"start":5899.219,"end":5922.189,"text":"還有我們是不是也順便來處理我們附帶決議第7這是由陳培宇委員所提出來的那個教育部是不是也要針對附帶決議也做一個說明附帶決議7主席我那個附帶決議是關於7之1但是我剛才沒有討論到7之1等一下這邊是7耶你們寫錯了嗎這裡面寫錯了"},{"start":5928.174,"end":5930.039,"text":"等17人擬具第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":5939.473,"end":5967.127,"text":"欸部長今天有來嗎?部長我要感謝你喔在我之前的學輔法的詢答當中部長回應了我一段話我非常的感動部長你還記得嗎我當時說死因回溯這件事情從我递補進立法院已經一年多我花了非常多力氣拜託教育部拜託衛福部甚至拜託國科會去找出專案委託研究的可能性而國科會跟衛福部教育部開會的時候大家都"},{"start":5969.867,"end":5995.272,"text":"當時部長您告訴我說跟委員報告,事實上,委員所關心的也是我在內部在教育部裡面跟同仁的要求也就是未來的新法過去我們每一次甚至每一個禮拜每一個月有固定的案例分析可以建立各個學校各個地區理解學生真正的問題然後再做出一些回應因為每一個城市都有一些差異每一個學生樣態都非常的不同"},{"start":5996.232,"end":6013.686,"text":"如果我們可以針對這些有更好的因應策略、輔導的策略部長你再次表示非常同意事實這就是我們現在我們希望一定要從這個方向做更專業的介入有更科學證據的累積作為後續心理輔導支持學生發展的力量"},{"start":6014.346,"end":6032.998,"text":"部長你來自基層,你也念過在博士班有學術研究的能力你一定知道相關研究累積證據的意義對於後續我們在做很多政策的訂定或者是學校輔導方案的訂定都會有極大的幫助我當然知道這件事情它當然有它的困難"},{"start":6034.239,"end":6050.189,"text":"但是所有的研究如果都只是因為有困難很難做我們就不做那我覺得這一次學服法修法沒有機會放進去我真的不知道還有什麼機會把學生自殺死因回溯調查機制放進去每一次衛福部也告訴我說已經有0到6歲"},{"start":6051.69,"end":6077.916,"text":"但是在協助會服務零到六歲教授也私下跟我們開會的時候告訴我們那個零到六歲的死因回溯機制那個方法還有那個邏輯並沒有辦法適用到現在學齡還有高中以下甚至是大學生的部分所以我要再次強調死因回溯調查機制這件事情我們可以找出合理的方法符合邏輯的方法同時照顧到所謂遺族的心情這些我都理解"},{"start":6078.616,"end":6090.174,"text":"如果有好的研究倫理好的研究方法我真的不知道為什麼有困境我們沒有辦法做這件事情所以我要再次強調七之一我還是希望教育部可以納入討論積極回應謝謝"},{"start":6097.496,"end":6115.648,"text":"范雲委員、郭玉琴委員、張雅琳委員、吳佩儀委員。關於這個7-1,大家也可以參考我的修正動議。我有一個7-1的修正動議。主要也是關於自殺智商的研究,希望能夠定在這裡。"},{"start":6117.63,"end":6136.025,"text":"因為這個部分之前在跟衛福部辦公聽會的時候衛福部經常有一個說法說兒少自殺死因回溯是因為自殺污名化遺族悲傷調適歷程相關的方法有限度效度的問題所以收集資料有它的困難度"},{"start":6136.885,"end":6163.156,"text":"但是這邊我要講一下這個跟衛福部或者是教育部找的專家有關那我這邊主張要的是系統性的資訊系統性的因素研究比如說學校制度或者是生活環境那我要講一下我是社會學的背景我們在這個議題上跟心理學的背景非常不一樣我們看重的是社會系統性的環境對自殺率的影響我們剛剛有看到那個數字"},{"start":6164.136,"end":6185.732,"text":"就是之前是每年一千多人現在是上萬人所以這部分是跟系統性的環境學校、教育、生活、家庭有關所以你找到不同的學者做不同的研究事實上不管是死亡原因的回溯或者是系統性學校制度的研究那這其實是可以再去識別化"},{"start":6186.152,"end":6187.673,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":6204.129,"end":6226.194,"text":"雖然教育部說兒少全法13條有定,可是那邊是針對6歲以下的兒童死亡原因回溯分析。我們剛講到在青少年這一塊自殺已經是第二高的死亡原因了。所以是不是能夠放在這,雖然之前跟教育部溝通的時候教育部說有困難,可是我還是希望說能夠放在這裡。"},{"start":6227.054,"end":6251.307,"text":"那如果不行的話我也希望能夠保留我們再討論好嗎在這裡真的要為就是說這個非常重要的議題陳情那希望能夠做好的研究不能只丟給衛福部因為衛福部我們溝通了半天他就是說方法有問題我覺得這個是學科的差異那至少我們社會學就是古典的普爾幹就是以自殺論文明他就是看到社會文化的因素好謝謝"},{"start":6252.861,"end":6281.22,"text":"接下來我們請郭育晴委員我想學生自殺自傷在傷痕的原因處理其實學生輔導的一個關鍵我國雖然已經有做一些相關的法規的分析可是因為各級學生他們在不同的階段下發展的原因其實是非常不一樣的所以其實我們應該要更了解學生自殺自傷的原因才能夠去強化輔導的一個力量"},{"start":6281.92,"end":6300.701,"text":"那尤其是現在第一線的這個輔導的主任他也有講到其實自傷有時候其實不是已經不是只有個人的行為有時候會變成一種集體的一個效應是會在班上其實會擴散的那我想這個地方其實也非常支持這個陳培宇委員他們的版本"},{"start":6301.281,"end":6301.702,"text":"張雅琳委員"},{"start":6321.8,"end":6322.68,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":6345.465,"end":6370.497,"text":"而是這個更廣泛的結構跟社會性的一些議題所以我們是有必要去提出相關的研究報告我覺得這才能夠讓老師學校的老師更早可以預警跟預判然後提供給孩子一個更好的協助那我也想再請教第二個部分就是說現在我們在講說好像調查自殺會有這些遺族啊悲傷調適等等的問題"},{"start":6371.457,"end":6394.538,"text":"但是我們現在也還是沒有去做這些自殺未遂或者是嚴重自傷個案的回顧如果我們有做一些相關的回顧的話其實也可以更讓老師去了解學生可能在學校裡面面對哪些不利處境我們是不是可以針對這個部分一起來在這一條裡面去做一些研究這樣我覺得對孩子才是一個最好的保障 謝謝"},{"start":6397.712,"end":6418.224,"text":"吳佩儀委員我是非常支持陳佩儀委員版本第7條之一我們對於青少年的自殺死因應該要做系統性的回顧那過去教委會也有開過公聽會我找出當時教育部的回覆當時教育部是說透過系統性的死亡回溯分析討論類似事件"},{"start":6425.389,"end":6447.323,"text":"當時教育部也答應我們說會配合衛福部來共同研議那今天教育部給我們說不予增訂這是教育部跟衛福部共同研議的結果嗎我是認為這個應該要有必要來把它放進去我們確實需要系統性的去回顧自殺死因第二個我也希望第七條剛討論到第七條的有關於這個"},{"start":6450.346,"end":6472.964,"text":"高中以下我們列出的幾個樣態要來進行主動提供輔導資源的我還是支持陳培英委員版本當中我希望把自殺意念可以把它放進去因為我認為青少年的自殺並且死亡率我們是連年攀升15到24歲去年更是創下歷史新高我覺得這個問題非常的嚴重希望在這一次的修法可以得到重視謝謝"},{"start":6476.113,"end":6503.394,"text":"接下來我們報告一下我們剛剛第7條已經通過我們現在討論7之1有關自殺的部分對不起等一下徐志傑委員謝謝主席我想對政策要很重要我們知道自殺有各種不同的意念不同的想法那到底為什麼會自殺有些真的是系統性的問題好幾年前那個微笑不丹是全世界幸福指數最高的國家"},{"start":6504.008,"end":6504.168,"text":"張雅琳委員"},{"start":6533.491,"end":6562.048,"text":"其實聯合國從去年就一直不停的在推廣就是我們必須全世界的各個國家因為都必須去面對青少年死亡率、自殺率上升的原因所以它一直在鼓吹各個國家去推動相關的研究所以我相信這一定是可以做得出來的好 謝謝你們剛剛寫的是不予增訂免予增訂啦但是委員很顯然認為你們需要增訂好不好"},{"start":6564.849,"end":6582.198,"text":"首先說明學校在實際上輔導有自我傷害的個案不管未遂或者自殺死亡每一個在輔導的過程其實我們的輔導老師一定會去充分理解孩子遭遇到的問題是哪裡"},{"start":6583.038,"end":6609.446,"text":"他的危險因子是來自於哪方面﹖是家庭﹖人際﹖課業﹖感情﹖還是各方面﹖哪邊﹖我相信每一個輔導老師﹖每一個輔導教員一定會理解﹖才能對這下提供輔導的一個策略跟方式﹖才能產生效果﹖所以輔導個案的時候﹖其實已經有這樣在做﹖那我想我們將來還是會持續透過個案研討的方式﹖專業督導的方式﹖來強化輔導老師以及專業輔導人這樣的一個作為﹖"},{"start":6611.306,"end":6640.675,"text":"第二個就是針對學校的這個自殺死亡的個案在我們部裡頭目前的自殺防治的這個三級預防工作其實有要求學校在自殺死亡個案事後都要做回顧跟整理發現這個死亡為什麼最後他會造成這樣一個事實那處理的過程到底哪個環節可能將來還有精進的空間學校也都需要做調整精進的分析並且要上傳回報"},{"start":6641.195,"end":6655.895,"text":"到主管機關要來做檢核。那這個部分也督促學校在個案的發生過程當中有些可能來不及挽回那個遺憾但他必須要以此為借鏡包括學校的環境包括學校的整個班級經營或老師師生的互動"},{"start":6656.516,"end":6674.097,"text":"等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。adequately, we have already designed such a system to be implemented by the school.第三個部分剛剛提到的就是行政主管機關不管地方或中央每年應該定期的進行調查研究"},{"start":6675.512,"end":6704.625,"text":"那從研究的結果當中回饋政策上哪裡需要調整哪裡要改進這個部分我們目前在中央的部分我們也有在做那只不過因為我們現在目前第三個調查研究部分主要來自我們校園案前通報的資訊以及剛剛講的針對自殺死亡的個案學校事後所做的回顧分析跟精進作為當中去進一步的分析那大致上對於學生死亡的個案是加頻因素還是因為精神疾患"},{"start":6705.405,"end":6733.084,"text":"還是因為人際、感情、課業其實基本上還是大家大致上可以做一個策略的分析的但可能沒有如同剛才范委員或者是蠻多委員講的更深入屬於社會系統整體的那一塊可能還沒有辦法做到這個程度那我們是建議是這個因為目前的法條都是幾乎是由中央主管機關應怎樣做尤其後面寫了一個主案回顧"},{"start":6735.833,"end":6762.591,"text":"我們認為實務上確實有待考慮因為它跟衛福部依照自殺防治法以及兒童及少年權益保障法的做法兩者整體之間必須要有一些思考啦所以是建議是不是這一條可以不要急著入法但我們很認同委員所主張的這些理念跟精神跟做法我想中央主法機關也有必要會同地方政府跟學校來做更好的一個規劃所以陳培鈺委員針對第七條之一有提出一個附帶決議"},{"start":6763.732,"end":6771.017,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具"},{"start":6793.433,"end":6793.974,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":6803.553,"end":6804.173,"text":"五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":6827.392,"end":6845.425,"text":"支持保留再討論嘛,對,就支持保留我們到院會協商的時候再去做處理。有位七之一好不好本席裁定我們先休息五分鐘好不好,那個司長你講到一大堆齁,好,你去跟人家委員溝通一下好不好,我們休息五分鐘,我們到6分鐘我們到10點30分再回來開會,謝謝。"},{"start":6852.03,"end":6859.413,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件進行回顧性調查 。」"},{"start":6881.541,"end":6896.329,"text":"教育部應該有一些統計正規的針對學生的問題但是不要特別去強調自殺因為他當然政策在實際上一定會針對那個最嚴重的去做所以我的一說學生個案問題"},{"start":6898.17,"end":6909.681,"text":"然後進行回顧調查研究,不要阻礙,因為需不需要阻礙回到那個專業包括資料的取得。不過這後面一定行政院一定會做的。"},{"start":6918.109,"end":6926.917,"text":"然後接著我跟各位再談一下說,除了你去公布這一個不需要因為你做一定會公布,提供學生輔導最佳化因應側面。"},{"start":6934.084,"end":6951.765,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第"},{"start":6952.506,"end":6974.738,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":6979.72,"end":6981.083,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":6989.778,"end":7007.543,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 判決於19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 判決於19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 判決於19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 判決於19人擬具"},{"start":7013.484,"end":7037.849,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 並且審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 並且審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 並且審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 並且審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 並且審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 並且審查委員張"},{"start":7038.459,"end":7040.62,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":7059.448,"end":7069.11,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":7088.075,"end":7114.34,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 項目2、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 項目3、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 項目4、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 項目5、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 項目6、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法"},{"start":7115.14,"end":7119.982,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":7130.262,"end":7141.167,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":7154.526,"end":7167.299,"text":"來我們準備開會謝謝來我們帶9關於第7之1部分教育部目前跟休息時間跟委員討論決議是來教育部回應一下司長回應一下7之1"},{"start":7177.979,"end":7185.889,"text":"其實我跟你說,自殺的回溯對我們來說是非常重要的。你的回溯要了解出它的根源,你才有辦法避免它再一次的發生。"},{"start":7187.11,"end":7200.819,"text":"現在目前我們就是卡在這個字句上面然後是不是入法的這個層面上面好不好那就麻煩第七之一我們保留請教育部回去再擬定比較更適合的條文我會很快開協商的好不好來接下來"},{"start":7205.939,"end":7216.287,"text":"我們來看第九條,九條目前是由陳培宇委員來提案,還有范雲委員的修正動議,好不好,大家來看第九條。"},{"start":7226.1,"end":7242.551,"text":"我們的版本是希望在學生輔導的資料這些資料的細緻處理這件事情學生輔導的資料其實是非常非常敏感的資料而且說實話在輔導專業倫理裡面是不是學校每個教職員每個老師都有相關的意識其實我是打一個問號"},{"start":7243.892,"end":7266.81,"text":"那我認為很多資料處理不到或是運用不到往往會造成學生二度的傷害所以我們辦公室才會堅持相關資料的妥善規範那也謝謝教育部在提會版本裡面也把我們的提醒納入教育部提會討論版本那另外我們還是要提醒目前教育部對於這個資料的規範只有在學生輔導法實行細則裡面第9條跟第10條兩個條文沒有單獨訂定執法"},{"start":7272.094,"end":7292.386,"text":"但是如果依照第九條第二項條文的敘述其實教育部應該要訂定執法雖然你們一直告訴我們有所謂個人資料保護法廣泛的對於個人資料的收集處理利用進行規範可是學生輔導資料的敏感性我要再次強調我覺得教育部還是要有相關執法的訂定那好以上謝謝來范委員"},{"start":7299.03,"end":7313.454,"text":"第9條是關於學校輔導工作還有學校輔導主管我的部分是針對學校輔導主管的資格有一個修正動議我是希望能夠訂說學校輔導主管已由具輔導專業專長者優先任用"},{"start":7316.655,"end":7343.045,"text":"主要是專業團體跟我反映說目前輔導主管由輔導教師擔任的比例太低那國中小的輔導主管那依照國教法21條的話無論是輔導主任或是輔導主長都只需要輔導熱誠和專業之能那他專業之能的具體內容只是要修習一般教師要修習的二到四學分輔導原理那也不需要輔導教師資格就可以擔任主管"},{"start":7343.805,"end":7357.696,"text":"大家知道如果主管的資格不夠專業的話其實在領導上就會出問題根據我跟教育部要的資料112年六都國中小輔導主任包含學夫主任總數有1624人其中有輔導教師資格的只有215人"},{"start":7364.121,"end":7379.147,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔"},{"start":7391.832,"end":7416.557,"text":"所以我的版本希望在這第9條裡面就明定說學校輔導主管宜由具輔導專業專長者優先任用我知道你們現狀會說沒辦法馬上可是如果有的話就宜由優先任用那這是考慮現實中的困難比如說有些小校的老師有限那都是在兼任可是我覺得至少要把宜跟優先這兩個"},{"start":7417.697,"end":7419.659,"text":"范雲等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":7446.852,"end":7472.808,"text":"至少都高於現在那個輔導熱誠跟專業認知因為那個只要兩到四學分的輔導原理那個教育部因為這裡頭的用輔導專業專長的文字會跟我們在第四條的第三項輔志中心主管人員的用字是一樣的所以在內涵上定義上應該盡可能一次避免差異這是第一個"},{"start":7473.408,"end":7474.548,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":7502.888,"end":7503.309,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":7518.186,"end":7526.048,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案"},{"start":7546.633,"end":7555.057,"text":"然後接下來我們會增加了一條學生一項學校輔導主管宜由具輔導專業輔導專長者優先榮譽你們是用輔導專業專長者盡量不要用到那些專有名詞保有彈性空間這樣可以吧專業專長OK好感謝我們第9條就這樣子造文字修正通過好你還有"},{"start":7576.584,"end":7577.995,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":7583.355,"end":7609.773,"text":"說明一下因為其實各執法的規範還蠻嚴密的啦那我想我們會再仔細檢視一下需要調整沒有沒有沒有我們周末問過律師的各執法的使用在這裡會有很大的落差所以執法的部分我覺得那主席可不可以允許我們執法的部分讓我們先喊一下保留我們等一下跟學特斯休息時間討論一下好我們覺得還是要訂定執法因為好就這樣我不要浪費大家時間謝謝"},{"start":7611.462,"end":7611.662,"text":"第10條等了一年四個月"},{"start":7621.038,"end":7647.502,"text":"教育部的版本就是增加這第10條好大家重中之重大家看清楚了好不好等一下先讓我宣佈一下第10條目前有范雲委員科之恩委員陳培宇委員羅廷偉委員來的提案來我們看第10條有關於大家最關切的到底是我們專任輔導老師可以增加多少我還是強調一年四個月就是等這一條羅廷偉委員"},{"start":7651.223,"end":7680.262,"text":"好第四條建議提升專任輔導老師的編制應提升編制至國小20班、國中12班、高中值10班至1人方符合教育的一個現場我的理由本條所修正的編制班級數為我國教行動聯盟之建議國中小的部分與院板一致院板的高中維持現行條文國中小的部分與院板一致院板的高中維持現行的一個條文這以上是我的建議"},{"start":7685.476,"end":7714.747,"text":"還有呢?來,林宜瑾委員我是認同這個專任的輔導教師的比例應該要以盡最高的努力照顧學生當作這個最高指導員者來修法那畢竟學生在校的發展是重要的人生成長的關鍵所以不能讓這個人力的缺口變成無法接觸這個某幾位學生的遺憾"},{"start":7715.447,"end":7743.179,"text":"那原本在上週的體會討論版本是希望不要動員而建議維持這個現行條文後來院版出來那國小的部分看起來是從24班以下制1人改成20班以下制1人那國中也從15班條下為12班那我認為說國小的部分雖然跟范委員跟柯昭偉的版本還是有一些落差但也算是有跨出了一步所以我是認為說還是"},{"start":7744.74,"end":7747.564,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":7764.489,"end":7790.256,"text":"我想問一下就是那個現行的是個師資端的一個培育那從之前其實我質詢的時候那時候我有提到就是教育部核定大專院校師資的培育的原額其實連續都有提高但是問題是他們的錄取率是連年下滑那這個師資的來源是不是不夠會不會不夠那怎麼樣去確保這個輔導的一個品質那有沒有可能在這個原額上做一些調整"},{"start":7793.197,"end":7817.413,"text":"接下來吳佩儀委員這一條大家最期待希望看到的就是可以降低這個師生比然後可以讓輔導老師的負擔可以降低可以充足來輔導我們的個案但是現在我們是這個調整的數字是否是充足的我打一個問號第一個是說因為教育部現在是以班級數來看嘛但我們在教學現場很多是他如果額滿學校"},{"start":7818.254,"end":7818.454,"text":"兩、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":7840.171,"end":7842.332,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":7871.353,"end":7887.26,"text":"針對這一條,依現行的條文的輔導教師配置,教育部是規劃說到120學年度的國小專任輔導教師全面配置完成。現在要提早到116學年度要提早到位。教育部這邊有預計說116學年度要增聘2088位的專輔教師。"},{"start":7893.783,"end":7894.283,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案〉"},{"start":7922.671,"end":7931.879,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。netesi, 教育部也應該要評估說在後續討論專輔人力增加的情況之下校園裡面是不是確實有增聘專任教育部也應該要評估說在後續討論專輔人力增加的情況之下"},{"start":7950.555,"end":7951.155,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":7973.072,"end":7973.212,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":7992.862,"end":8021.335,"text":"我想這一條我跟大家的意見都一致方向當然就是希望能夠增加越多的輔導教師員的越好那教育部的院板這邊當然已經有進步了國中部分達到理想配置那而且也是這樣可以讓現行的規劃提前到位嘛但是高中跟國小跟民間的期待還是有很大的落差啦國小雖然進步了那但是我的版本已經沒有"},{"start":8021.935,"end":8023.036,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8039.082,"end":8048.407,"text":"但教育部是不是可以再努力看看再去爭取因為這邊我們還是希望能夠更好那另外我還有一個意見就是跟人數這個不一樣的就是專業的團體跟我反映說應該配套就是如同前面那一條就是增訂輔導主任主管時由專業人員優先任用那在我們這條應該增訂一個兼任行政時應補足應聘員額"},{"start":8066.678,"end":8067.178,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":8086.866,"end":8115.758,"text":"但她去兼任這個工作之後其實學校在能夠做輔導的人力就會下降所以是不是可以在這個情況下補聘一位專任的輔導教師那上次我在跟部長詢答的時候那部長有表達說專輔人員跟行政職是兩回事原本就有獨立的員額那兼任的時候員額本來就應該補足所以依照部長的這個回應教育部是不是可以說明一下"},{"start":8116.218,"end":8117.259,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":8131.015,"end":8131.776,"text":"我當然知道比2088還要再增加10648億多真的如果可以有這麼多"},{"start":8159.736,"end":8159.936,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":8177.591,"end":8203.872,"text":"好 謝謝主席那目前我覺得這個人數的部分確實要請教育部回覆那另外一個我也蠻好奇的就是教育部到底要如何逐年增加這件事情我們談的是逐年增加那逐年增加方法目前教育部的規劃我覺得是所有第一線的老師跟所有關心這個議題的人都很在意的事情那還有就是目前現場需求跟可運用的人力是不是教育部都有確切的掌握"},{"start":8204.592,"end":8221.383,"text":"還有我覺得更重要更重要的是人員的品質這件事情因為剛剛向范委員在前面的條文也有提到關於這個專業時數的問題或是如何確保相關的專業可以服務到每個需求的學生我覺得這也是在人數以外大家會更關心的部分 謝謝好 教育部要不要統一委員問題非常的多因為這個蠻重要的好 那其實"},{"start":8236.499,"end":8262.534,"text":"跟主席還有委員報告那在這個學生輔導法修法的這個歷程裡我們之前在120年國小120學年度國小部分提前到116學年度到位這個部分是我們跟國教署還有學特司一直在努力能夠補足的但是也聽到現場的聲音就是很多輔導的工作那又於人力往往會"},{"start":8263.474,"end":8264.435,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8293.194,"end":8293.715,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8309.232,"end":8311.335,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":8327.475,"end":8329.416,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":8356.843,"end":8358.604,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":8382.654,"end":8393.99,"text":"如果他兼任行政的話,因為行政的缺,他有的時候是不固定的,所以因此在這個部分可能也要考量實際上的一個運作。那師之司的部分先做以上的報告。"},{"start":8395.629,"end":8414.39,"text":"我同意,我自己是師資培育第一線的工作者,現在我們是要提高人力,不過我還是要希望能夠教育部未來在師資培育這一塊可能要同步。目前在很多南部有很多有教師證的人,他要額外再去修輔導學分,其實是很多學校是不願意開的。"},{"start":8415.211,"end":8415.371,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8432.948,"end":8457.675,"text":"來吧,各位,還有陳佩玉委員。好,謝謝主席。謝謝剛剛教育部的回答。我真的是不應該問這個細節,可是我剛剛聽到讓我頭皮發麻的部分,所以我真的要積極提醒教育部。剛剛你的回答裡面說,適量執憂、多元人力。你提到失陪的部分有小教跟中教,這個我可以理解。你提到公費生我也可以理解,可是公費生的困境我相信教育部比我還清楚。"},{"start":8458.235,"end":8483.926,"text":"有非常多公費生到了偏鄉去他們寧可賠錢他們也要跑掉而如果輔導教師又面臨這個狀況教育部有沒有什麼加碼或者是鼓勵的機制甚至是提升公費生願意留在偏鄉的意願我相信你們應該要有更積極的配套再來你剛剛說進修學分班的部分其實剛剛范雲也有關心關於所謂這種進修學分到底你們目前專業的規劃"},{"start":8485.306,"end":8495.47,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔"},{"start":8508.456,"end":8531.442,"text":"你希望幫他增加學分然後讓他去教小學生做小學部分的專任輔導教師請問你的意思是這樣嗎?如果是的話我要提醒這個中間應該有很多的專業上的落差如果你們認為你們設計的課程可以補足這個專業的落差那也請你們有沒有機會在今天做說明還是那只是"},{"start":8532.282,"end":8534.023,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8562.995,"end":8565.017,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":8583.097,"end":8585.658,"text":"：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案‧一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8605.983,"end":8633.577,"text":"雖然每個委員有不同的版本有不同的班級數有不同的一個看法然後也不同的concern特別是在師資培育的這個層面但是我們就針對整個條文部分裡面對於教育部目前為止國小的部分是20班從24變成20然後國中目前從15變成12因為我們都認為國中是非常需要的然後高級中學也是12那高級中學其實基本上是沒有什麼修正嘛然後其他這個部分大家對第10條"},{"start":8635.118,"end":8659.152,"text":"條文上面有沒有其他意見?沒有的話,哇,我們就通過。對,還是一句話,我們這邊距離行政院只有6分鐘。這個條文,第10條等了一年四個月。好,就這樣子,很重要。來,接下來有個也是非常重要的,就是第11條好不好?就是不好意思,我再補充,我剛剛所有那些提醒,因為教育部沒有回應,那我是不是可以做一個"},{"start":8660.673,"end":8673.443,"text":"副代決議請教育部做出相關的研究跟規劃跟承諾。就是那個行政。抱歉我有個修正動議好像被漏掉了。就是後面加一句逗號堅韌行政時應補足應聘員額。教育部的意見。"},{"start":8688.439,"end":8703.187,"text":"這一塊等一下可能也請國教署就實務的部分補充啦我先說因為高中的主任輔導教師一定是專任輔導老師來當的絕對沒問題那國中小剛才提到因為國教法只有講大家需要輔導熱誠及專業之能看起來沒有那麼明確"},{"start":8707.529,"end":8722.937,"text":"那可是先說一下因為這些主管通常國中小都是由教師兼任的那他以什麼身份去兼任這個主任很重要如果他是以專任輔導老師去兼這個主任的身份他的行政工作可能會佔掉他一大半的力量"},{"start":8723.877,"end":8724.538,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":8739.771,"end":8756.228,"text":"國中輔導活動科的老師去兼,他會檢授課,他的課務自然會有兼待課老師來處理他課務的問題,這可以兼顧。國小的部分確實都調整為一班老師再來兼主任,把專任輔導教室的缺騰出來,聘專任輔導老師。"},{"start":8763.24,"end":8781.338,"text":"范委員的意思是一樣但是這條條文如果入法的話執行上可能會因為他的缺他不是懸缺我就不懂那如果實質上這樣子精神是可以的為什麼不能把這個兼任行政時應補足應聘員額放進去這樣就罪有保障啊"},{"start":8782.441,"end":8804.497,"text":"范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 替代委員 林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 替代委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 替代委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 替代委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 替代委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 替代委員林宜瑾等19"},{"start":8806.03,"end":8806.551,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8824.537,"end":8850.416,"text":"以後 以由這些專業資格的這種能力的來優先擔任主任所以配合整套剛剛已經講的那個我們來模擬一下這件事情可能的情況剛剛吳司長的意思是說這裡面如果按照這個法制他六班被配一個這個是依照這一次修的配一個那這配一個"},{"start":8851.752,"end":8852.533,"text":"但是今天委員又提了"},{"start":8869.853,"end":8870.754,"text":"所以我們在第12條那邊"},{"start":8891.67,"end":8906.449,"text":"就有一個細節說如果未來我們再訂這些三級也好學校輔導老師的工作包含案量或是剛才委員所提的有一些這種碰到小校"},{"start":8907.622,"end":8909.982,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜》案件事宜"},{"start":8931.647,"end":8932.948,"text":"兩、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":8949.441,"end":8963.754,"text":"讓他在相關的代理代課上可以做處理可是你直接處理到原額可能在整體的射算上就已經拖曳了大家的那個規範了這邊我表達一下因為你剛舉的例子是6班聽起來就會覺得就是你剛說的很合理喔那我們現在如果舉的是18班或是18班的狀態的話那個想像起來就會非常的不一樣你不去補足的話就蠻不合理的"},{"start":8977.145,"end":9001.957,"text":"所以當然就是說最後要不要用執法來規範我也不反對但我希望因為等一下我還沒有講完我是希望這個先保留啦因為我們再好好的討論一下你要執法要怎麼定好嗎確定之後我們才能夠放掉否則我原則上還是希望放在條文中比較好好不好所以我們要為這個條文保留嗎我是要保留可是這個實務上面的人力上面裡面這可能"},{"start":9003.988,"end":9004.608,"text":"七條之一要保留嗎?"},{"start":9025.77,"end":9042.225,"text":"范委員你剛剛講的保留齁因為我剛剛聽到署長講一句話我又更害怕所以我想要呼應范委員的保留署長您剛剛說還是我可能是我聽錯齁因為麥克風可能擴音的效果您剛剛說用一般的教師去當主任、主長就不會有專輔人員不足的問題"},{"start":9044.36,"end":9051.243,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件中有提出一項法律法律法律在食物上落實或是運作上可能真的他們會去運用它依據這一次修的規定所以范委員所提的這一個是的確未來在現場會發生的"},{"start":9074.071,"end":9075.852,"text":"范雲等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案"},{"start":9097.944,"end":9104.109,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件,並且繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件,並且繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9119.298,"end":9129.906,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草"},{"start":9147.558,"end":9148.439,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9166.61,"end":9166.99,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9184.446,"end":9201.042,"text":"等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案»案。厲不厲害?我們第十條你知道為什麼第十條我就很害怕就是說好不容易等了這麼久可以看到這個大家都還可以接受一保留哇塞夜長夢多我們就是第十條裡面我們就保留好不好"},{"start":9202.363,"end":9206.285,"text":"范雲等21人擬具林宜瑾等21人擬具張雅琳等21人擬具李博毅等21人擬具黃秀芳等21人擬具許智傑等21人擬具柯珍等21人擬具陳培宇等21人擬具"},{"start":9218.011,"end":9234.19,"text":"陳培義委員、我看侯孟凱委員、陳秀寶委員、郭玉琴委員、葛如君委員、郭國文委員、臺灣民眾黨、吳佩奕委員、王玉敏委員、萬美玲委員、羅志強委員、陳清輝委員、莊瑞璇委員、林月琴委員、萬美玲委員、林俊憲委員、羅廷慧委員、廖偉祥委員。"},{"start":9237.509,"end":9266.14,"text":"還有這個我們所謂的修正都議裡面羅廷偉委員還有附帶決議是范雲委員跟郭育晴委員第11條我們第10條非常重要來哪一位我們先看一下許智傑委員然後民眾黨然後我們再下來陳清惠委員我們是讓第一次發言的委員先發言好不好陳清惠委員關於陳秀寶委員郭育晴委員張雅琳委員陳佩玉委員林宜瑾委員葛如居委員"},{"start":9267.247,"end":9267.427,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":9283.274,"end":9307.068,"text":"其實這個學生輔導法我們在2014年的時候那個時候我當教育的早尾那也通過了2400變成1200然後呢我要請教育部特別注意一下2017年的時候有老師跟我反應說我們定了1200了但是還是很多學校沒有遵守"},{"start":9308.431,"end":9325.198,"text":"所以那時候的數據是這樣有43所沒有達到2400比1還保留在沒有達到2400比1那還有100多所要講1200比1根本就沒有做到"},{"start":9326.238,"end":9328.901,"text":"徐志偉,你剛剛講的是大專院校,我們現在先傳到是高中以下。"},{"start":9345.436,"end":9346.677,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案》案"},{"start":9366.428,"end":9370.549,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":9394.842,"end":9406.785,"text":"大家好這次學生輔導法的整個立法的目的都是因為現在對於學生自殺的通報急劇的增加還有現在學校的"},{"start":9412.327,"end":9412.507,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":9428.084,"end":9441.634,"text":"所以我在這裡主要是要表達臺灣民眾黨對於這個法的修法這個非常的重視那也看到大家這個各個版本的提出我們都支持這個從優"},{"start":9444.796,"end":9453.961,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9470.655,"end":9479.319,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員"},{"start":9499.81,"end":9521.589,"text":"現在是陳秀寶委員,過來是郭育晴,過來是陳清輝,剛剛舉手的次序好不好?謝謝主席,這11條就是各級學校的專輔人力是這次修法的重點。教育部在今年初有先行透過調整補助經費的方式使大專校院的專輔人力配置從1比1200條到1比900。"},{"start":9523.971,"end":9540.806,"text":"所以說大專校院的專訪人力不足的問題暫時有得到緩解那接下來重點就是高中以下學校的部分現行的規定是55班以上學校至少配置一人那高中以下學校主管機關首席啊高中以下學校數20校以下的配置一員但是"},{"start":9542.444,"end":9569.452,"text":"以這樣子的人力配置來講真的是造成我們許多的專輔人力他會有點就是他的負擔會比較大因為20校的配置的話一個專輔人員負責是兩到三個鄉鎮那本席這邊提案是調整為40班以上的學校配置一人那15校以下配置一位16至30校配置兩位31校以上以此類推那這個部分如果說我們調降到15校以下的話"},{"start":9570.812,"end":9571.993,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":9586.707,"end":9587.047,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9607.614,"end":9631.562,"text":"因為按照教育部的版本你們預計是增加136到192位專輔人員那這個總經費大概是需要到1.6億餘元那這個部分是不是已經有成功的鄉行政院這邊來爭取的那專輔人員的補足你們是會一次到位還是預計在哪個學年度之前是慢慢補足那在專輔人力補足之前有沒有什麼過渡計畫來協助目前的專輔人力補足的問題以上"},{"start":9636.766,"end":9638.548,"text":"范雲等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":9658.809,"end":9659.249,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":9677.324,"end":9677.684,"text":"李慧琼等22人擬具"},{"start":9707.704,"end":9734.958,"text":"資源跟配置還有專業度的部分這個可能要重新再做一些考量我其實蠻echo這個郭委員的因為你看很多服務員我們太多太多的例子了光是高雄從鳳山到那馬下我們來回四個小時然後呢就是像你說台東嘉義非常多一個人都要負責兩三個鄉鎮以上光是來回那個交通的時間我說實在跟一般來說就要鄰近學校真的是完全是不一樣的所以我覺得偏遠地區的這個學校"},{"start":9737.299,"end":9741.342,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件事項》案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項"},{"start":9766.158,"end":9767.94,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":9782.694,"end":9797.4,"text":"有看到後面有修正1比1200變1比900這個非常肯定因為根據其他國家比如說美國的1比1000澳洲的1比850我想這個方向是正確的因為一位專府人一年服務576個小時"},{"start":9799.301,"end":9828.626,"text":"如果用國建署統計目前台灣國人8.9%罹患中重度的憂鬱症來計算的話這樣子是合理的不過也有發現許多委員都希望可以下降到15校以下不過這邊我們的教育部版本還是維持在20校我很希望等一下是不是大家可以一同討論我們再看是不是可以把20校調整到15校這樣子的比例謝謝好 謝謝然後葛如居委員"},{"start":9830.241,"end":9833.964,"text":"教育部曾跟我們回覆說恐怕無力負擔"},{"start":9850.797,"end":9862.17,"text":"但是呢我們認為這個本席和其他委員的版本內容這個財務有困難我覺得是有一點這個推脫了嫌疑為什麼因為相較於執政黨面對的其他的議題比如說千億去補助這個電力台電的虧損"},{"start":9869.958,"end":9870.959,"text":"六、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":9895.333,"end":9896.354,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9912.592,"end":9932.419,"text":"陳力等19人擬具我們不希望我們在這個委員會裡面尊重我們孩子的身心健康希望能夠有更足夠的人數來協助他們我們不要在這裡出了委員會以後結果反而我們的這個健康台灣的委員會"},{"start":9933.379,"end":9957.848,"text":"反而認為應該要花這6億那我覺得有這樣的一個漢格都不是我們希望的因為這個委員會有說要促進和維護身心學生身心健康和全人發展所以表示這個議題的重要性是非常重要的而且不限於一個大健康的議題影響層面非常大希望教育部能夠再進一步的思考參採我們很多委員們的版本來做這樣的一個輔助"},{"start":9960.889,"end":9972.276,"text":"同時也提一下我們有針對人力的這個部分來做這個附帶決議希望能夠面對供給端的工作人員負擔過重的問題也希望用附帶決議的方式請教育部兩個月內了解國內外科技導入學生輔導工作的現況和發展"},{"start":9982.563,"end":10008.855,"text":"原因是我們在質詢的過程以及與教育部交流的過程我們都發現其實國內外已經有非常多導入數位科技導入甚至AI科技來做學生輔導的一些實例所以我們希望能夠用附帶決議的方式來提醒希望教育部能夠在兩個月內進一步研議以科技導入學生輔導工作的可行性和規劃本席也接獲學生團體的陳情"},{"start":10010.436,"end":10028.668,"text":"希望教育部研議高中以下的學校線上預約心理輔導的機制因為高中的校區相對的非常稠密所以學生進行新輔的申請的時候會被所有的同學、被所有的老師"},{"start":10030.029,"end":10035.493,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案»案。adequate to the program."},{"start":10051.883,"end":10067.199,"text":"共同了解實務需求並延伸後續因應,這個兩個部分導入科技的部分我們是用附帶決議的方式提出,謝謝。好,謝謝我們接下來陳培鈺委員,然後范雲委員之後是張雅琳委員,喔,對不起還有吳培鈺委員。"},{"start":10068.814,"end":10091.013,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要講一個比較先從一個比較困難的好了麻煩教育部等一下一併回應關於學生基數的部分目前你們有兩種寫法嘛那我想要請你們說明一下第一項第一款跟第二款之間的關係到底是什麼是擇以使用還是併用那偏鄉條例的部分你們是獨自計算嗎還是有什麼別的算法"},{"start":10091.733,"end":10117.187,"text":"另外4500到5000的比例是怎麼算出來的我覺得還是要有些說明你們希望能夠多補20%到30%的人力又是如何計算出來的目前我們認為行政院或者是之前院會提出來的版本是20校可是其實如果根據我們的算法我們算過如果有機會從20校降到15校其實只需要增加到58人另外學生總數基數我們也認為應該穩定低於4500"},{"start":10120.149,"end":10138.399,"text":"目前大專是一比九百可是目前的版本你們給我們的版本四千五到五千我覺得這個狀況還是看不是很清楚還是要請教一部說明那另外有一個部分我覺得有點複雜的是在最先就是之前的原本版現行版現行版當中"},{"start":10139.079,"end":10139.479,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":10164.161,"end":10164.801,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":10184.79,"end":10211.781,"text":"我自己認為如果在這些大校裡面學校有機會保留固定的專輔人員其實比較可以穩定的協助學校處理處遇性輔導階段的問題那不然如果都要等到輔資中心統籌調派可能會緩不濟急程序也會比較長那這個部分我知道院會版或體會版都已經拿掉可是我還是希望教育部在這件事上有一些說明那主席因為我有十一之一的提案我要一併說明嗎"},{"start":10213.968,"end":10228.836,"text":"我們先等一下好了好不好因為這第11條已經太多太多人提出來了不過我先確定一下因為剛剛聽到陳佩玉委員講我要請國教署先確定一下對不起那個偏鄉條例我們額外有212位輔導人員這完全是不含在裡面嗎"},{"start":10229.716,"end":10250.254,"text":"百分之百確定那培育委員的外加嘛這212完全不是嘛所以你這個部分已經完全確定了嘛我剛剛也echo他剛剛所提到的這個15校說實在你算算的不過增加58人而已好不好你要不要考慮一下20班降到15也啊對不起啊20校降到15校算起來精準的算法也不過少了58人"},{"start":10251.195,"end":10251.815,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":10275.902,"end":10303.151,"text":"但我要回應剛剛陳培委員剛剛他所講那個是在我們討論的五十五二十校怎麼樣額外的我們不能拿那個大專院校一比一千二一比五百然後突然一比九百然後突然之間變成一比四千五這樣會引引發困擾沒有那個是在校完之後你每增加四千五百人你會再額外再配置一個教育部的前提要先說好我先幫你做解釋好不好但是你可不可以考慮一下四千五百人以下不要做浮動性的這是可不可以考慮一下這個東西會比較讓大家會放心一點啦哈"},{"start":10305.632,"end":10311.277,"text":"范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":10320.855,"end":10329.122,"text":"范雲委員、張雅琳委員、吳佩儀委員15校的部分我跟他們幾位的意見一樣希望教育部可以考慮一下另外關於大校的駐校專輔人員的規定我這邊的版本也是希望保留"},{"start":10344.975,"end":10367.141,"text":"而且這件事情還影響蠻大的那教育部因為之前溝通的時候有了解教育部的講法那現在的情況就是說教育部希望全部改制到縣市輔資中心那主要就是希望這樣統一調派比較好那教育部提到是說直轄市希望會這樣子但是專業團體對這個蠻憂慮的第一個他已經是大笑了嘛"},{"start":10371.202,"end":10371.383,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":10386.135,"end":10386.696,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":10407.136,"end":10408.196,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":10424.983,"end":10425.503,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":10454.789,"end":10483.152,"text":"另外關於就是剛剛大家講到人力的部分那很多團體也會擔憂如果依照教育部目前的版本的話那大校專輔人員又被移除那縣市輔資中心的比例也沒有調整那4500比1到5000比1的比例也比目前估算的現行是4400比1嘛那這樣子就沒有變得更好啊那如果我們這次修法這個部分沒有更好的話"},{"start":10483.832,"end":10498.409,"text":"那這樣子會讓外界很失望了那教育部之前針對我的版本估算說要再多增加233人那教育部自己維持現行條文的話你本來就要增加136到192"},{"start":10501.292,"end":10522.399,"text":"所以差距是40幾人所以教育部是不是可以說明一下能不能夠再往我們委員的版本邁進那如果院版的就是說算出來的人力就是沒有比現況4400比1更好的話那我真的是希望教育部再回去跟院爭取好嗎就是說這個部分"},{"start":10522.879,"end":10549.414,"text":"最後一題是關於那個第二項,第二項增訂的規定那看起來是要有特殊的情況經核定才有外加最多6%的人力那教育部給我的說明是說都會外加6%以這個方式配置可以再增加23.41%或33.05%的人力那狀況到底是怎麼樣那如果都會外加6%那你為什麼要訂這個條文我就有點不懂了以上請說明謝謝"},{"start":10550.802,"end":10566.929,"text":"好,接下來我們請吳佩儀委員或還是林宜瑾委員這一條在專科以上專輔委員跟學生的比從1200條降到900這個是我跟很多委員都有提案的版本這一個我要給予肯定跟支持但是有關於我們剛剛討論到高中以下"},{"start":10567.469,"end":10568.489,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":10597.737,"end":10615.268,"text":"謝主席,我想這一條涉及這個專任的專輔人員的人力比這是真的是這個法的重中之重那我想本期的版本是希望說在高級中等以下學校班級數在40班以上要設置專業輔導人員一人"},{"start":10617.509,"end":10618.01,"text":"兩、繼續審查委員兩、繼續審查委員兩、繼續審查委員兩、繼續審查委員"},{"start":10645.413,"end":10668.65,"text":"我想本席會這樣的訂定當然我主要是參與這個學校衛生法的規定每40班以上應至少治營養師一人學校護理人員每校之一人那我想這個就是考量到身體啊心理的健康都是全人發展的重要環節輔導人力也務必要這樣子相對的足夠因應"},{"start":10669.631,"end":10698.573,"text":"所以本席認為專輔人員的設置也可以就是參照學校衛生法的設置方式來辦理那我看院版當然很多人提到學生總數4500人到5000人的基數下去算專輔人員的數量立法說明是寫說這是依據實務需求來算那我就納悶說實務需求到底是什麼那數字是怎麼來的這個邀請教務部等等要想明一下對"},{"start":10701.937,"end":10703.638,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10724.824,"end":10751.078,"text":"我也是依據學校衛生法把原本55人應設置專業輔導人力的呢變成是40班以上應設置一人那同時呢我也非常感謝院板我就看到已經刪除義務輔導人員的這些文字可以去避免說義務輔導人員去取代應聘的員額產生一些模糊空間那同時在應聘員額之外呢可以是需求設定兼任的專業輔導人力並且規定專任"},{"start":10754.66,"end":10763.208,"text":"接任專業輔導人力所需的經費納入第四項由中央主管機關來補助這是在我的條文增加的部分那也希望可以把它納入謝謝"},{"start":10769.926,"end":10785.233,"text":"我先請要說明,然後等一下請郭教授補充。第一個,我們把55班以上社專輔一人的這個規定拿掉,以及我們設計了一個按照學生總數4500到"},{"start":10787.754,"end":10795.478,"text":"五、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案»案。neteso規由縣市的輔資中醫統籌調度處理,一樣可以依照學校的需求派駐區域就近來服務學校。"},{"start":10813.908,"end":10838.735,"text":"四千五到五千人設置他當然一開始一定就是用四千五去設算配置足夠的人力但他隨著學生總數逐年減少他一定要降到五千比一以下才會有涉及到需要調整減少聘用人數如果我們還是定用四千五單一的人數那接下來就是每年會減少人員"},{"start":10839.195,"end":10866.778,"text":"因為學生人數往下掉的關係我不曉得各位這樣說明各位清楚嗎所以他是為了減少少子化逐年減少班級減少人數所帶來的衝擊那第二個部分把55班以上住校的部分取消還有一個很大的原因是因為55班以上的學校他也只能聘用一人那一人可能是心理師也有可能是社工師但學校學生的輔導需求有一些可能是需要心理師有一些可能是需要社工師所以"},{"start":10868.459,"end":10870.46,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案》案。"},{"start":10890.775,"end":10912.663,"text":"十六個縣市來講有14個縣市收回來統籌。為什麼統籌?因為統籌在人力調度上是確實在資源運用上是更好更便利的。這是可以提供大家參考。然後我也說明一下以現行的第11條的用人來說總計不管是55班以上加上每20校設一人總計機用的人數是581位。"},{"start":10915.044,"end":10936.688,"text":"這一塊剛才大家有提到那個偏鄉地區學校教育發展條例以偏鄉地區國中學區為範圍至少設一人的221個抱歉這完全獨立分開計算的所以單純以醫學生輔導法的規定來講是581個如果依照提院會通過的版本來講它會總數會增加到773人換句話說多33%左右"},{"start":10943.595,"end":10946.399,"text":"對總是這192個然後我也說明一下以現行的581人來服務將近234萬的學生來說他大概是4000比1左右採院板之後"},{"start":10958.479,"end":10961.301,"text":"提高了大概192個人提高了33%最後可以把服務的人數從4000人降低為3000人其實已經可以有效的減輕專府人力的一個負擔"},{"start":10979.231,"end":11006.857,"text":"當然很多委員提案建議是要把55班住校調降為40班以及把每20班每20校設1人改為15校設1人這也可以大量增加專輔人力那我們也算過了這樣增加的人數會總數會達到1006人相對於現行學校來現狀況來人數會增加400多位400多位服務學生的人數可以在"},{"start":11007.717,"end":11035.491,"text":"更進一步降到大概2300比1那我想如果可以有更充裕的經費當然可以應用更充裕的人力可以減輕的幅度就更大不過這一塊因為涉及到人力的禁用以及預算的籌措的問題因為在院版已經而且是上週是在剛通過的情況之下我想要再做更大幅度調整恐怕要透過後續協商來處理而不是審查委員會直接做決定以上報告"},{"start":11036.796,"end":11037.436,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":11054.446,"end":11073.19,"text":"我剛剛特別提到很多的縣市是非常狹長的那個真的是你如果你知道這個二學校的話通常一個人帶只能走三個學校你到15校只要走兩個學校很多學校是彼此之間是距離是非常遙遠的而且最重要的是大家都已經考量到財務的一個分配所以我才說加到15校你也不過增加58人這其實相對而言是比較容易達到的在這一塊有沒有可能剛剛司長講了一堆啦但是我們講一個比較簡單的"},{"start":11083.772,"end":11086.954,"text":"立法院第11會期教育及文化委員立法院第11會期教育及文化委員立法院第11會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":11112.153,"end":11137.945,"text":"那在第11條部分部長還有司長、次長這個15項的這個層面大家是非常的堅持大家其實是認為是可以做到的可以在這個地方先做一些解決我補充一下第11條的第三項抱歉第二項增加了主管中央主管機關可以按照前兩者的總數"},{"start":11139.266,"end":11144.549,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事"},{"start":11163.499,"end":11190.468,"text":"再加依照4000到5000再增進人力然後再加6%給中央主管機關依照學校的負荷按量跟區域去調控基本上他已經有考慮到增加人力的輔助大概就是30%左右但是這樣考慮所以我們現在如果在每20校設議人的部分再調降為15校設議人這個人數就是再疊加上去那其實單純考量因素真的就是"},{"start":11192.73,"end":11193.271,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":11205.985,"end":11228.858,"text":"司長所以我再次跟您確定一下根據你剛剛的算法提會討論版目前應該會增加773人二十校的部分會增加200人四千五百的基數會增加530人六趴的部分會增加43人目前我的記錄是對的嗎?剛才講提會版本的部分不是增加773而是總數773總數773那733增加了233"},{"start":11234.641,"end":11247.966,"text":"對總數773但是20校的部分如果算下去會多增加200人對不對對然後4500人的基數的話會增加530個人是總數不是增加總數OK好那偏鄉條例你剛剛說是額外的嘛對不對再加221人所以合計會是994人對嘛好謝謝"},{"start":11260.01,"end":11260.15,"text":"范雲委員范雲委員"},{"start":11277.631,"end":11278.472,"text":"我還是沒有被說服以上"},{"start":11303.224,"end":11329.799,"text":"第三項我們後面已經有徵收文字了第三項後面有講得委由所設學生輔助中心所在學校或責定之學校聘用師意思就是說我舉例嘛像台北新北他們的總數很多啊他那個住校的部分不收回來對他講反而是減輕行政管理人力啊他會很樂於就派住在學校可是這個統籌的權利應該還是在主管機關嘛可是"},{"start":11332.247,"end":11338.63,"text":"第三項由主管機關責定學校來批用資,它是有這個處理空間的。我剛才也講16個一般縣市政府的部分,有14個學校沒有住校。我先說,原本55班以上應該要住校的,它實際上沒有住校,為什麼沒有住校?因為人力很吃緊,它當然至少抽回來統籌運用,可是學校會抱怨,這個人是我的人,"},{"start":11358.061,"end":11367.004,"text":"雖然說法令規定你可以統統調度可是你幫我收走我就沒辦法就近協助我學校啊那我們現在這樣修其實是符合多數縣市政府的期待司長 這個好像跟我所理解的有一些落差不過我想第11條目前為止大家都還是會卡在還是希望能夠增加更多的人力是不是本席認為這一條我們先保留好不好"},{"start":11385.461,"end":11395.591,"text":"范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審"},{"start":11408.106,"end":11426.432,"text":"但寫商的時候我們還是會堅持15校這個版本好我們第11條就先保留好不好然後呢我們是不是先處理完11條之一我們就暫時做一個休息11條之一目前為止來11條之一我先說一下對怎麼樣你要補充啊"},{"start":11431.125,"end":11451.245,"text":"主席,謝謝你。剛才我在11條這個發言我有提到說說如果以提會討論的版本來講那個教育部這邊的看法是說他們要增加192人那這個部分呢經費大概會需要1.6億那時候我有問說那你們有沒有已經跟行政院爭取到這筆預算那你們有回答到我謝謝"},{"start":11457.714,"end":11476.787,"text":"先說因為國小的輔導人力都大部分八到九成經費是有中央補助的啦所以國教署應該在114年度的預算籌編已經有納入需求了那後續因為還在行政院的程序還在處理當中嘛對好 秀報委員同意來我們接下來是不是先處理11條之一我們11條暫時保留11條之一"},{"start":11488.032,"end":11503.9,"text":"目前為止我們11條之一有范雲委員、林宜瑾委員、張雅琳委員、柯珍委員、陳培宇委員、郭國王委員、林俊憲委員。陳培宇委員好謝謝主席那我想專業督導的部分跟重要性"},{"start":11504.48,"end":11518.191,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、繼續審查委員張"},{"start":11529.199,"end":11537.801,"text":"當然我們已經有先提出一個附帶決議所以我還是想要先聽一下教育部在這個部分的回應我們在決定附帶決議的部分要怎麼討論謝謝我想這個部分就是希望學校主管機關得救狹內之專業輔導人員每7人至多責任擔任督導人員那如果未滿7人的話得試實際需要責任擔任督導人員"},{"start":11556.305,"end":11556.725,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":11586.01,"end":11609.719,"text":"那看11條怎麼定,然後我們再來一起討論。好,以上。謝謝主席。那11條之一的話,因為它主要是屬於專業督導機制嘛。那專業督導機制對於心理師和社會師的專業能力和培養以及服務品質把關都非常的重要。雖然說高中以下學校及各該主管機關專業輔導人員設置辦法第4條已經有相關規定了啦。"},{"start":11613.661,"end":11637.642,"text":"但是這個辦法在法律體系的位階比本法低而且實際上各縣市的執行情況不一致所以為了讓各縣市教育主管機關重視輔導人員的督導所以我們增加了這個規定那因為剛剛其實我原本是在第7條有提一個再修正動議那當時候是說把這邊併在第11條之一來討論所以待會就請那個司長一起回覆 謝謝好 司長"},{"start":11640.774,"end":11657.905,"text":"我先說,我們現在委員所提的十一條之一的第一項文字跟現在輔導、普遍輔導法的授權執法有一個高中以下學校專業輔導人員的設置辦法條文一模一樣從執法位階提高到法律位階我認為不會解決問題的關鍵在哪裡?關鍵在他用的是德"},{"start":11662.455,"end":11662.895,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":11686.527,"end":11688.85,"text":"委員的建議跟我想法是一樣的,可是我還是建議這條真的不...對,我建議執法裡頭處理,謝謝。"},{"start":11705.895,"end":11708.657,"text":"范雲等19人擬具范雲等19人擬具范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":11736.534,"end":11737.134,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":11764.03,"end":11764.65,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":11789.349,"end":11790.43,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":11802.574,"end":11821.981,"text":"你是用哪一個版本啊?陳培宇的版本是吧?對,就是陳培宇委員的版本。版本,然後把得改成因,把它調出來。前面的得改成因,後面的得改成因。其實大家都是大同小異啦,十一之一好不好,把它調出來,等一下。至多改成至少,嘿。那我想那一塊就是,將來都島的新吃起點跟聽號板都比較高啦,所以將來在補助經費的時候,縣市可能會對於那個經費會有一點點,嗯。對,那從專業上來講這樣做是對的啦。"},{"start":11830.071,"end":11832.238,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":11838.086,"end":11853.311,"text":"本來就是他要以這個為當作最大的一個考量我們先看一下第11條之一高級中等以下學校主管機關應就轄內之專業輔導人員至少每7人選 對不起至少每7人則一人擔任督導人員但轄內之專業輔導人員總數未滿7人者應則一人擔任督導人員"},{"start":11864.315,"end":11866.757,"text":"等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":11887.293,"end":11902.016,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草"},{"start":11903.49,"end":11922.143,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 令 林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 令 林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 令 林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 令 林宜瑾等22人擬具:「"},{"start":11933.37,"end":11934.191,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":11951.434,"end":11952.475,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":11981.774,"end":11983.396,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":17719.835,"end":17719.856,"text":"韋瑞"},{"start":18227.349,"end":18238.983,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":18282.486,"end":18283.067,"text":"二、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":18303.504,"end":18305.647,"text":"等22人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案»案。netesley Chen等22人擬具"},{"start":18318.664,"end":18326.267,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學"},{"start":18347.517,"end":18348.317,"text":"等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":18373.69,"end":18376.971,"text":"等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。netes, let's talk about the 12th question."},{"start":18397.998,"end":18414.391,"text":"第12條,范雲委員、林宜瑾委員、張雅琳委員、黃秀芳委員、柯珍委員、陳培宇委員、陳秀寶委員、葛如軍委員、郭國文委員、還有萬美玲委員、還有羅廷偉委員、還有他的羅廷偉委員的修正動議。好吧,我們針對第12條有沒有委員?"},{"start":18416.713,"end":18436.509,"text":"需要特別來提出來范雲委員跟范雲委員這個主要還是聯動就是說我這個修正動議是依照原本的那個提會版就是說如果沒有刪除註銷專府人員的話那就不應該限縮在主管機關所置專府人員那我的修正動議其實跟這個相關的說明一下那我們還是回到看我們這個條文上面好不好"},{"start":18442.608,"end":18442.908,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":18460.137,"end":18484.439,"text":"十二條好 謝謝主席那個十二條的部分其實我們就是希望就申訴的部分希望明確依照學生的身份不同然後列舉相關適用的法規那也謝謝教育部已經納入你們的題會討論版本那還有就是學校的老師輔導老師專輔人員的職務相關的規範跟整理我覺得在這一次我們也做了比較系統性的整理也謝謝教育部已經納入你們的題會討論版本"},{"start":18486.861,"end":18487.122,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":18505.407,"end":18532,"text":"第三項就是體會版的第三項我們目前第三項是學校主管機關所置專業輔導人員那這個跟第11條確實是連動的如果55班要不要保留要不要留著維持或者是要不要降為40如果住校的還在他就會變成學校及主管機關就差這麼個幾字那我想跟11條是連動的我們可能要連同第11條來做考慮"},{"start":18534.605,"end":18537.926,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":18553.035,"end":18553.495,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":18571.843,"end":18584.807,"text":"兼因視學生需求主動與輔導單位協商,協助介入性及儲遇性輔導措施。高級中等以下學校之輔導教師負責規劃發展性輔導措施,並因連結校內外資源負責執行介入性輔導措施。"},{"start":18591.329,"end":18596.411,"text":"評估轉介處遇性輔導之適切性及協助處遇性輔導之推動。學校主管機關所致專業輔導人員負責執行處遇性輔導並協助發展性及介入性輔導之推動。專科以上學校之教職員執行發展性輔導並因視學生需求主動與輔導單位延伸協助介入性其處遇性輔導措施。"},{"start":18616.88,"end":18619.467,"text":"專業輔導人員負責介入性及處於性輔導並協助發展性輔導去推動高級、中等以下"},{"start":18625.254,"end":18630.059,"text":"來高級中等以下學校教師輔導老師輔導教師專業輔導人員之輔導對象輔導內容分工轉介各行政單位行政支援及其相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商直轄市縣市主管機關定之學生對學校有關其個人之輔導措施認為違法或不當致損害其"},{"start":18648.396,"end":18657.584,"text":"全意之申訴依國民教育法、高級中等教育法、專科學校法、大學法、特殊教育法等相關規定辦理。"},{"start":18668.342,"end":18686.136,"text":"那我們第12條就是因為跟第11條都是聯動的所以我們就保留但是我們希望大家可以理解就是第12條其實沒有太大的問題我們就不要下一次我們在協商的時候如果有委員中途岔出來麻煩各黨的委員自己去自行處理來其他"},{"start":18687.638,"end":18703.475,"text":"接下來我們就是12條之一有張雅琳委員,12條之一張雅琳委員他怎麼樣,他沒有在場,有沒有人要幫他講,沒有的話就司長回應這個內容第5條之一已經定了,一樣的內容一樣的內容,那就把它刪掉了"},{"start":18704.892,"end":18727.168,"text":"好,那我們現在是第14條第14條有范雲委員、林宜瑾委員、張雅琳委員、黃秀芳委員、柯珍委員、陳培宇委員、陳秀寶委員、葛如君委員、郭國文委員、羅志強委員、萬美玲委員、羅廷偉委員跟廖偉祥委員還有我們修正東藝是有羅廷偉委員跟范雲委員好吧,我們根據第14條"},{"start":18739.017,"end":18757.705,"text":"十四條的部分我的版本主要是希望能夠增加輔導教師及專業輔導人員應有專業督導機制其組織、方式、頻率、內容及獎補助之實施辦法由中央主管機關定制因為這題主要是在講"},{"start":18758.365,"end":18760.027,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":18776.546,"end":18801.106,"text":"目前國中小輔導主任我們前面已經討論過主要很多都沒有具備輔導專業的專長加上校長可能本身也沒有輔導專業這樣子會使得整個領導的效果非常有限不利於輔導專業功能的發展現行法規如果我們前面的部分沒有增加的話完全都沒有建立專業督導的制度"},{"start":18802.367,"end":18820.434,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續�"},{"start":18831.579,"end":18831.979,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":18859.281,"end":18879.488,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們的部分真的是希望增加現場人員的專業知能那我們其實前面的討論就是大家各自必須要承擔的角色如果都已經很清楚了那在這個角色上所必須要有的專業知能這件事情我覺得從過往以來已經有非常多現場的老師也提出不管是被動的還是主動的"},{"start":18880.768,"end":18907.994,"text":"但是我們當然也要考慮到現場實務工作的繁忙跟複雜所以關於到底哪一個位置的人需要什麼樣程度的專業知能這件事情我們也認為必須依照他們的分工跟他們接觸的學生的樣態而有所不同可以有所變化例如說如果他一直以來都只擔任導師或者是客人老師他可能就只需要最基本的知能他有辦法覺察學生是不是有輔導的需求或是知道有哪些管道可以立刻提供給學生"},{"start":18908.874,"end":18927.427,"text":"但是如果他是主管、輔導主任、校長他因為有相關主管的業務他就必須要知道更多專業知能這件事情所以我們就會給予他比較高的期待他的相關研習時數就必須要增加所以這個部分我們也很感謝教育部會討論版本呼應我們所有人的需求"},{"start":18928.288,"end":18953.519,"text":"但是另外一件事情我覺得講出來可能還是需要花一些時間討論就是在題會版本討論的第四項針對學校人員的職前訓練還有在職進修我們辦公室有希望接受督導的部分那教育部的說法是說好像會剝奪學校人員建立督導機制是有相關複雜的可能性要討論嗎我覺得這個部分我們還是想要聽一下教育部的回應"},{"start":18954.34,"end":18957.607,"text":"其他的部分就沒有問題,謝謝教育部接受我們的建議跟討論,謝謝。好,林宜瑾委員。"},{"start":18962.069,"end":18962.309,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":18991.869,"end":18994.911,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":19009.999,"end":19011.781,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":19025.573,"end":19049.471,"text":"另外就是說督導會提供專輔的教師跟人員在現場的實務的服務建議但接受督導是否屬於在職進修不同單位的認定都不同所以我本席在這個版本上也明定說接受督導屬於在職進修的一個形式大家有一個統一的標準才不會亂了套以上 謝謝"},{"start":19054.276,"end":19055.397,"text":"請教育部做統一的回應。"},{"start":19062.011,"end":19084.086,"text":"專業輔導人員心理施法、社工施法在他們繼續教育的相關執法裡頭對於專業輔導這邊都有詳細的規範而且涉及到他們的患症所以專業輔導人這一塊其實蠻嚴謹而且已經有制度可循但專任輔導老師這一塊確實還沒有那我們在之前討論的時候也談到其實"},{"start":19086.147,"end":19087.088,"text":"五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":19112.009,"end":19138.724,"text":"對對對對對對後面他有講說得以研習工作方教專業學習社群參訪交流後面加上盾號專業督導等方式辦理也就是把專業督導的部分也定性成是屬於職前訓練以及在職進修的一環而且他的時數也納入裡頭做計算而且我們用的是專業督導這不包含行政工作上面的這些事務協調不包含了那用專業督導這樣方式來處理以上建議"},{"start":19140.325,"end":19151.717,"text":"好 謝謝是不是這樣我們看大家看一下條文參訪交流專業督導等但是我個人覺得如果說你要讓他體力看起來好看我覺得專業督導應該放在工作坊後面啦"},{"start":19155.251,"end":19174.567,"text":"對嘛,你看專業,你看工作坊,然後過來是專業督導,然後教室專業社群,然後參訪交流嘛,好不好?你把它放那個地方,可能,可能那個時序上念起來會比較符合,可以齁?好,還有沒有別的?沒有的話我們第14條就是修正通過嘛,好,謝謝!"},{"start":19177.281,"end":19205.512,"text":"那剛好12條之一的話我們就是張雅琳的委員的版本我們就併入5之1條裡面來做處理了好不好我們就在這邊做此宣布然後接下來我們是15條15條是羅志強委員的版本還有廖偉祥的版本來15條你看一下15條教育部有任何的說法嗎想法嗎就是剛才說的因為"},{"start":19209.514,"end":19209.814,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":19231.84,"end":19241.065,"text":"第16條就是陳培宇委員陳培宇委員還有范雲委員提出了附帶決議我們先討論一下好 謝謝主席我們提到輔導空間在實務現場工作過就會發現"},{"start":19248.388,"end":19271.423,"text":"因為過往對於輔導工作專業度的忽視導致於很多學校在設計相關物理空間的時候其實可能就是以主要行政辦公空間為主而沒有比較積極的考量到當學生有個案輔導需求的時候他需要隱密性或者是需要可親近這件事情那我們也還蠻常看到有些情況是孩子們就在走廊上"},{"start":19271.803,"end":19276.124,"text":"一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":19293.169,"end":19322.102,"text":"但是因為相關的這個基準它並沒有讓地方主管機關有督導的空間所以我們還是希望把相關督導的責任跟設置適合學生進行不同層級的輔導所需要的空間這個概念放進來我們甚至還有聽過學校輔導老師告訴我們說當孩子們有需求的時候可是因為那個空間隱密性不夠他們甚至是關在掃具間然後窩一個小小的角落這樣所以我覺得非常非常多的案例的"},{"start":19322.883,"end":19323.163,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":19332.628,"end":19356.173,"text":"我的部分是提一個附帶決議主要是有學生團體跟我反映說很多學校的現場都缺乏一對一的誤談進行輔導工作的空間對這些青少年學生來講的話其實隱私還蠻重要的如果學生被迫在人來人往的教室辦公室進行談話的話其實效果會非常有限甚至抗拒所以我是希望教育部能夠具體修訂"},{"start":19357.173,"end":19384.753,"text":"學校輔導工作場所的設置基準並與地方主管機關會商規劃場地的檢核機制跟改善資源以專輔教師跟專務人有可進行輔導諮商誤談之空間一般教師也需要進行發展性及介入性輔導誤談的專屬空間或者是空間能夠借用的機制為目標讓這樣子的一個空間可以有獨立隱私跟隱蔽性以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":19389.059,"end":19390.98,"text":"司法部長司法部長"},{"start":19415.39,"end":19416.851,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":19438.348,"end":19455.532,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學"},{"start":19469.301,"end":19484.216,"text":"再說范委員的附帶決議因為我委託團隊的那個研究已經快完成了後續我們就會會同國教署跟地方政府來檢討納入所以那個時程可不可以給我們稍微就是配合輔導法的執法要在6個月之內完成訂定嗎"},{"start":19486.758,"end":19503.489,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 及"},{"start":19518.262,"end":19531.63,"text":"我當然知道這個東西要入法對教育部來說會有一些跟地方政府溝通的困難可能還來不及去解決我猜想"},{"start":19532.711,"end":19554.903,"text":"但是其實剛剛范雲委員也說了不管是從學生的角度從學校裡面專業輔導教師的角度或者是我是學校的主管我是校長我是主任我其實我覺得大家都會希望這個事情它是有機會成的就好像我們現在讓學生之前讓15歲到35歲的青年去申請三次的免費心理諮商"},{"start":19555.703,"end":19582.163,"text":"如果我們去到那樣的場合是一個不合格的場合我相信所有人都沒有辦法放心把自己的心事說出來如果我們這一次修學生輔導法希望落實所謂的三級輔導機制甚至我們希望很多事情可以在學校內學生就獲得支持獲得解決獲得協助那一個完整的物理空間一個設置夠好的物理空間絕對是我們要共同努力的目標我相信部長你一定也認同就如同教育部在幾年前"},{"start":19582.824,"end":19594.031,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔"},{"start":19613.364,"end":19642.424,"text":"對於相關場所的設計或是設備其實都是在完整整個學生輔導法很重要的精神否則我們有好的精神我們有好的概念我們甚至把人跟錢都放進去了那我們就缺那個完好的空間回過頭來到最後我們還是要解決空間的問題會不會教育部兩三年後又要設計出一個補助競爭補助型計畫讓學校來寫案子申請重新修善輔導空間我是打一個問號也許那時候來看是美意"},{"start":19643.024,"end":19671.107,"text":"但是我覺得在這次修法的時候我還是要積極的主張提出來這件事情的必要性。謝謝。我想要特別強調的一件事情是設置基準是一定要修的。要訂的更完整一點,包括主管機關對於學校的督導還有後續的改善措施。但實際上訂的、修的基準是不是能確保整個環境就可以朝著好的方向走?"},{"start":19671.767,"end":19674.669,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具．一、繼續審查委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":19695.23,"end":19707.637,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事項﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人�"},{"start":19721.365,"end":19730.308,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案》案。adequate, you are in charge."},{"start":19730.308,"end":19741.552,"text":"我懂,我懂司長喔。其實我們辦公室有提附帶決議啦。我當然知道之前在跟司長溝通的時候,確實我們都有一些認知。所以我們也提了附帶決議。那附帶決議的部分可以嗎?司長可以嗎?我們有一個附帶決議。我們辦公室有一個附帶決議。"},{"start":19766.022,"end":19778.146,"text":"我們再回頭討論一下就是到底要不要入法還是就直接在設置的基準辦法當中更確實把它修好我們等一下再來做處理好不好"},{"start":19780.499,"end":19783.421,"text":"等16人擬具第17條第17條的部分也是陳培宇委員所提要不要說明一下"},{"start":19794.257,"end":19801.04,"text":"我的版本其實是把17跟17之一一起來做討論我合在一起喔那原來的學輔法17條這兩項我把它拆成兩條那17之一是原來學輔法17條第二項我在修改"},{"start":19811.423,"end":19831.815,"text":"那我的修改其實是想要加強所謂的專業倫理規範所謂倫理規範這件事情我相信教育部應該懂我的意思我們對於所有專業人員的倫理規範這件事情我覺得在學生輔導這件事情其實是現場很欠缺的我並不是說老師或是所有的專業人員會任意透露學生的資料"},{"start":19832.455,"end":19850.145,"text":"但是因為這件事情它不在大家日常工作的基本概念當中所以我希望在這一次修法當中除了把這個訴求放進來我們可能會因著這個訴求增加相關專業職能的培訓所以我們還是希望寫了17跟17之一那我知道在學生輔導法實行細則第15條裡面有提到"},{"start":19854.68,"end":19868.756,"text":"學生輔導法第17條第二項所稱的專業倫理指的是前項學生輔導工作相關人員按照他的身份或專業別依照教師法、心理師法跟社會工作師法等相關規定所應該遵守的專業倫理規範"},{"start":19870.418,"end":19870.918,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":19899.557,"end":19903.38,"text":"范雲等17人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":19924.678,"end":19926.239,"text":"當時我們針對學生輔導辦公聽會的時候就有學生團體代表表達就是有那個沒有遵守專業倫理的部分"},{"start":19944.506,"end":19945.347,"text":"二、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":19963.388,"end":19966.389,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":19988.058,"end":19989.018,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20010.208,"end":20036.304,"text":"專業輔導人員的心理師或社工師他們的專業倫理以及違反專業倫理可能會衍生的包括譬如說撤銷他的資格等等之類的其實他都會必須要建構在心理師法跟社工師法的相關法規上面其實對於教育系統來講我們很難特別為這一塊單獨另外再定因為要講求的是法律效果因為如果"},{"start":20039.931,"end":20067.77,"text":"啊 輔導教師有類似的問題因為輔導教師就是教師他也是架構在教師法的法的體系底下的規範比如說他如果涉及到獎懲的問題可能就必須要依照教師的成績考的辦法如果是解聘停聘不續聘他就是必須要依照這個教師的解聘辦法去處理而且這一塊在高中以下因為在教師法裡頭都有授權所以有很清楚的執法規範"},{"start":20068.99,"end":20069.471,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":20088.303,"end":20098.664,"text":"學校學生輔導工作人員按其身分別或專業別,依教師法、心理法及社工司法等相關規定遵守了專業倫理規範。原因在此。以上報告。"},{"start":20100.287,"end":20118.376,"text":"因為我們這個輔導工作的倫理是第一守則啦我覺得那個是基本上面就根本上完全是ㄎㄧㄤ在裡面的部分那委員討論一下對於這部的回應是不是一定要把它入法才有辦法確保這個所謂的倫理的原則"},{"start":20120.157,"end":20138.779,"text":"我先說啦我沒有一定啦但是我還是要先謝謝范雲委員剛剛的echo那確實我們的版本的寫法我想要強調一個我想要請大家看一下我的17之一我的寫法裡面呢輔導教師如同司長說的他是教師你認為他會有教師法好"},{"start":20140.06,"end":20160.575,"text":"專業輔導人員如同趙薇說的他是專業輔導人員你認為他有專業的心理倫理輔導主任或組長或者是其他學生輔導工作相關人員應遵守的專業倫理當我們把其他學生輔導工作相關人員拉出來看他就會回到我們前面很多條文裡面提到的學校的教職人員"},{"start":20161.736,"end":20178.371,"text":"未來如果又再加上所謂的學創校安人員他們是不是所謂學生輔導工作相關人員?是喔!他們是喔!可是他們在專業倫理上請問目前有哪一個版本的法或是其他的法可以呼應我們在意的專業倫理?"},{"start":20180.345,"end":20196.442,"text":"所以如果大家覺得其他的也就是輔導教師、專業輔導人員跟輔導主任或組長大家覺得已經有法律的版本或是法律的專業倫理可以照顧到那這個我可以拿掉可是我要再次強調在每一個特殊令人悲傷的個案現場"},{"start":20197.503,"end":20198.723,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20219.75,"end":20244.562,"text":"不認為這件事情是跟他們有關,所以才會產生很多令人悲傷的個案。也就是為什麼在我們的版本裡面,我特別要把17條之一,其他學生輔導工作相關人員應遵守的專業倫理提出來。我當然不會指責教育部說現在沒有所謂的教師專業倫理規範,因為教育部告訴我們有教師法,有相關的三聘、不續聘、停聘、解聘辦法。"},{"start":20245.222,"end":20246.103,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20262.654,"end":20262.774,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":20280.254,"end":20281.455,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20303.587,"end":20304.087,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20329.807,"end":20334.411,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":20357.449,"end":20357.689,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":20374.176,"end":20377.357,"text":"范雲等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。netesle等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":20402.796,"end":20403.057,"text":"第二十四條"},{"start":20419.212,"end":20421.474,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":20441.69,"end":20464.023,"text":"好,所以它24條裡面就說本法修正條文第一條至第三條及第11條施行日期由行政院定之,這樣可以嗎?好,即改成頓號,然後後面的頓號改成即。好。即改...第一至第三條頓號。"},{"start":20466.26,"end":20489.195,"text":"段浩第11條及第11條之一施行日期由行政院定之。好,謝謝。那我們現在就回到,欸我剛第16條附帶決議要先解決掉嗎?還是要逐條回來?我們最後來處理一下。哈?還沒有印出來,他還沒有印出來。"},{"start":20492.352,"end":20493.393,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":20522.25,"end":20522.891,"text":"范雲委員第四條我有提一個修正動議那我想是這樣就是說"},{"start":20538.756,"end":20541.996,"text":"等一下等一下我對不起先等一下這個門進進出出我這樣子然後是不是可以稍微管控一下"},{"start":20563.761,"end":20564.804,"text":"對,貴黨黨團的記者會門關緊一點,來繼續"},{"start":20580.751,"end":20592.376,"text":"我想這個學生輔導諮商中心絕對不是說中央行政機關組織基準法又或者是各地方政府任務編組作業原則當中所認定的臨時性組織"},{"start":20596.258,"end":20618.97,"text":"如果說學生輔導資商中心不存在了那我們今天修正不法就根本沒有意義所以本席認為如果說與其在附帶決議請教育部來做參考辦理我覺得不如就直接在法律條文中把各項精神跟要求寫清楚所以我才提這項修正動議這項修正動議裡面教育部要的彈性"},{"start":20622.712,"end":20649.024,"text":"也給了就要不同意的專府人員勞動條件提升同時也寫得清清楚楚那如果各地方政府要採正式編組的就採正式編組那如果各地方政府要採常設性的任務編組就採常設性任務編組那可是無論採哪一種編組實質上的人員的待遇都應當參照學生輔導諮商中心所在地方政府機關的編制"},{"start":20650.385,"end":20651.065,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20665.734,"end":20683.146,"text":"我們並不用在這次修正三讀後就馬上來落實有三年的緩衝期讓中央跟地方都能在預算跟組織架構上去做出比較完整的準備我必須再強調一次就是說學生輔導智商中心不是臨時性的組織"},{"start":20684.227,"end":20684.807,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20705.277,"end":20718.967,"text":"只改名那換單不換要沒有什麼意義那所以請教育部要承擔這份責任就是說我沒有辦法接受只是用附帶決議去期待行政單位的好意以上 謝謝還有沒有"},{"start":20722.84,"end":20723.14,"text":"范議委員范議委員"},{"start":20746.77,"end":20768.131,"text":"內政部說輔資中心如果正式化的話,我們的他的說法我們聽起來啊可能就會是教育局處下的一級單位嘛那目前在地方行政機關組織準則中對於一級單位的數量其實並沒有設上限啊所以機關數的限制依照內政部給我們的說法跟地方行政機關組織準則應該是不存在的"},{"start":20770.674,"end":20771.194,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":20789.639,"end":20790.139,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20807.435,"end":20834.68,"text":"但如果一旦正式化其實就需要基層編制嘛那我們可以討論是不是編制一般的行政人員然後專府人員人用約用那等等這些部分就是部分公務員部分約用那這樣就不會佔用那麼多的員額所以這是我跟那個內政部詢問的結果所以也請教育部重新依照我問來的部分是不是可以解釋一下好不好"},{"start":20840.696,"end":20841.417,"text":"一經委員的修正動議針對第四項"},{"start":20864.962,"end":20882.662,"text":"就是把正式編組或常設性任務編組並列,而用或的方式來取代。我想這個看起來是有一個台階的空間。就實際的來看應該是可行。但後半段有一塊說"},{"start":20884.889,"end":20886.831,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":20915.746,"end":20916.666,"text":"二、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":20935.478,"end":20935.999,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":20953.852,"end":20957.856,"text":"法律事務部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部"},{"start":20979.674,"end":21008.144,"text":"那如果是屬於聘僱人員的話事實上在上個禮拜人事總署主管機關也有說明的很清楚聘僱人員現行的規定他的退休制度就是依照勞工退休金條例規定來辦理所以事實上並沒有教育部或相關主管機關在另訂退輔制度的空間所以說對於第四項的部分當然可以尊重委員還有立法委員還有部裡面的這個相關的這個想法因為這涉及到組織的部分不過有關權益的部分因為"},{"start":21008.744,"end":21028.195,"text":"他是什麼樣類別的人,事實上現行就有相關的適用的制度,所以不需要再另訂相關規定,所以第五項建議不要增訂以上。好,好啦,有沒有辦法正式邊組又加薪好不好,這是大家最最最希望的,還有沒有?我說這是知識體大,要徹底討論好不好,要徹底討論一下。來,內政部是不是也可以回應我剛剛問的問題好嗎?"},{"start":21037.984,"end":21056.42,"text":"法務要補充,法務補充。好,法務先補充,他剛才舉手了。主席、各位委員,那有關於這個輔導資源中心,它的組織,我印象你的上次會議總處的代表已經講得很清楚,法律明定應設。"},{"start":21058.257,"end":21075.585,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案件事宜、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分"},{"start":21087.625,"end":21088.305,"text":"三、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":21113.115,"end":21114.676,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":21130.851,"end":21147.604,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案案案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案﹚一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文�"},{"start":21156.971,"end":21171.06,"text":"這組織是不會不見的,除非我們的法律把它修掉,得赦,或是把這個中心刪掉,否則它是受到法律保障的,你就是應赦。所以現行的機制其實就是已經有法律保障,"},{"start":21172.014,"end":21188.639,"text":"各位委員可以理解,它不會不見的。不會說有一個自家制限制政府說我想設就設,不設就把它裁掉。是不行的,因為法律已經明定你就應要設。只是它設的時候的組織形態、線型都是用任務編組的方式來做安排的。"},{"start":21189.039,"end":21208.408,"text":"所以如果以如上的實務跟我們一般的法制用語上面也很少用到叫做正式編組,因為編組的概念就是任務性的,就不是正式組織的概念。是不是可以容許,可以不爭定,這一項以上。"},{"start":21208.996,"end":21210.037,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":21225.105,"end":21247.336,"text":"提會討論的部分裡面是學生輔導諮商中心之組織他只用組織我們過去來說的話因為這個組織裡面我們就開始會簽到上一禮拜還記得我們就開始不斷討論要不要把這個組織法制化或者是因為他沒有法制化所以他用組織他怕法制化所以才會用組織他給予很大的一個彈性的空間所以我們回應到上禮拜我們討論這些條文來看"},{"start":21250.678,"end":21252.579,"text":"所以說教育部經過這一個禮拜的討論之後你們還是認為把它變成我們上次用的是什麼組織規"},{"start":21263.089,"end":21263.489,"text":"四、繼續審查委員"},{"start":21288.871,"end":21293.313,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":21315.92,"end":21337.162,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第4項,其實已經把這一塊收回來由中央主管機關、會商、指甲室跟縣屬機關定職。所以我們會就各縣市目前運作比較健全、比較良好的一個做法,用來作為討論的基礎,跟各地方政府做會商。"},{"start":21338.062,"end":21367.14,"text":"那這個應該可以有助於把這個向上提升啦讓原本比較弱的這些縣市可以有比較好的做法定在辦法引導他們來做那我想這個也是改善就是讓輔助中心的功能可以發揮我們會主要的一個做法然後我想如果連同我們委員所提到的附帶決議如何實質上去改善專輔人員的待遇我會認為可能比在成為正式組織上要更好一點點以上報告"},{"start":21367.799,"end":21382.351,"text":"因此,我覺得以輔導工作人員來說,如果行政院、人總各方面都會認為組織比組織規程來得更合適,那我所考慮的其實就是這些輔導人員的薪資待遇如何把它提升。"},{"start":21384.312,"end":21403.881,"text":"那時候提出的附帶決定花這麼多時間來裡面這是經過跟非常多團體組織討論過來這樣的一個薪資是可以有一些的誘因可以讓他們願意留下來在這樣子的一個學校的單位裡面來去做的所以要不要請各位委員彼此之間再來協調這是行政院的版本"},{"start":21405.342,"end":21429.838,"text":"我們當然每個人都希望法制化可是如果今天都把它保留到禮拜四我協商你們還是給我同樣的理由然後呢告訴我可能三年逐年我們來考慮法制化那我最concern 裡面這些這些輔導人員的第一線人員裡面的馬上可以透過這樣的一個部分可以來做加薪的就完全就被卡在法制化的這樣一個部分裡面當中遙遙無或許有可能你們不要給我壓個時間點我覺得我們還是要回到很現實的問題裡面來做一個考量好不好"},{"start":21435.161,"end":21456.567,"text":"范雲委員我想這裡面分成兩個部分一個部分當然就是爭取人才實質加薪的部分那奉典的部分柯之恩召委的提那個部分我也可以同意那專業證照加給的部分我上禮拜就有附帶決議了那也跟柯召委的看法一樣那但是就是說這其實如果能夠加上公務人員的這個穩定跟長定的話是更好的"},{"start":21464.349,"end":21464.989,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":21486.207,"end":21507.1,"text":"所以我的版本就是希望能夠建立主任督導然後醫師三級的本縫然後專業家級有年功縫再加職務家級那這個部分才會有一個正式化那這部分你就可以鼓勵他們依照醫事人員條例師三級聘用的模式那跟約用提供職務家級的模式雙軌併用也就是說你可以有這個方向"},{"start":21511.122,"end":21538.773,"text":"那其實我也是希望這條今天能夠解決只是我不知道林宜瑾委員那個部分跟我這個有沒有矛盾那如果那個部分沒矛盾的話我是很希望就是可以依照她通過但是我還是希望有點時間我可以再跟專業團體討論啦所以這個部分如果今天不能定案的話那我是希望還是保留啦那她宜瑾委員那部分我覺得是個解方因為她也不排除政治化的可能性嘛你是有或吧或"},{"start":21541.598,"end":21541.978,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":21570.064,"end":21593.914,"text":"先說因為他就是堅持費的概念可是很大一個困難是因為特教資源中心裡頭借來的都是商界的特教老師他的待遇相關都是比照老師的一條邊的模式所以他不存在差異就比較不會有流動的這樣的問題啦那我們的福祉中心因為都專服人員都用聘用人員禁用的方式跟輔導老師差距很大"},{"start":21595.242,"end":21596.043,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":21619.352,"end":21644.084,"text":"就是在這個地方對我個人來說啦這麼多的學生在這邊提高他們的薪資是最大的一個誘因現在任何人的工作當然你能夠有正式的編制是最好可是在院板所提出來的還有上次我們的討論如果院板是你們自己沒有辦法做到這個層面他說我們還要卡在這個地方不去討論他們的薪資嗎我之前是金牛座我現在非常務實好不好"},{"start":21646.309,"end":21646.91,"text":"二、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":21663.513,"end":21685.184,"text":"因為原本是這樣,原本的原條文的這個立法說明就有寫說以任務編組方式運作或循地方制治法規設立新機關或派出單位之程序規定設立之那我的意思是說你這個本來立法說明這樣是不是就把這些立法說明定在"},{"start":21686.155,"end":21693.361,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件"},{"start":21716.32,"end":21731.639,"text":"當然你知道我們期待的是什麼啦好沒關係那我如果說可以的話就如同你們講的常設性任務編組是不是可以把它寫在後面最後一款裡面把立法說明寫進去就對了"},{"start":21734.652,"end":21761.486,"text":"謝謝那個議金委員那個議金委員這段我在上禮拜四我就有說過在103定學生輔導法在立法第四條的說明裡有就說的就是這個他就告訴你是任務編組也可以你要依照地方制度法定成立新的機關也可以原本的立法進行成就案他並沒有說一定是任務編組只是我剛講一旦依地方制度法成立新的機關我的理解是"},{"start":21762.466,"end":21786.564,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件及其中一部分條文修正草案 案件及其中一部分條文修正草案 案件及其中一部分條文修正草案 案件及其中一部分條文修正草案 案件及其中一部分條文修正草案"},{"start":21790.903,"end":21809.38,"text":"在這邊跟各位委員報告就是依據我們的這個行政機關組織準則我們是針對於組織的原額還有它的這個都定有規範有一個框架針對所屬一級機關的數量和單位都是有管制的比如說直轄市在200萬人口以下的"},{"start":21812.162,"end":21812.742,"text":"立法院第11屆第11會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":21831.155,"end":21831.455,"text":"一、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":21857.227,"end":21857.347,"text":"林宜瑾等"},{"start":21884.491,"end":21896.276,"text":"最後一個例子在作用法裡頭定組織法的最後一個例子就是家庭教育法當年家庭教育法修正的時候把家庭教育中心納進去之後行政院就已經發現這個問題是一個"},{"start":21899.206,"end":21899.886,"text":"一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":21926.644,"end":21952.746,"text":"剛剛委員們提到一個正式化但是我們曾經一直跟委員報告正式化在很多的這些輔資的老師或是這些人員他們反映的問題可能對於正式化的想像他們沒有行政機關清楚但不管怎麼樣我們就請教他他面臨到什麼問題那我們拆解這幾個問題是這樣第一個他不希望在科之下"},{"start":21954.977,"end":21978.002,"text":"他不希望在科之下,現行是在科之下,以至於行政在領導的過程中,有很多專業的判斷會低於行政的思維。所以第一點,他不一定是靠正式化來解決問題,所以即便是常設組織,我們也可以把它定調成他是平行於科。"},{"start":21979.056,"end":21979.916,"text":"第二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":21999.821,"end":22000.622,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":22013.577,"end":22033.006,"text":"這個組織當你移出科變成平時科有專業的權責之後那領導呢?領導也改了各位請看一下領導已經改成他的主管人員就在一項二項三項第三項主管人員就分號之後分號之後主管人員應由就是地方政府這個領選"},{"start":22042.264,"end":22043.865,"text":"一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案"},{"start":22068.968,"end":22071.471,"text":"立法院第11會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":22084.446,"end":22085.767,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":22105.134,"end":22132.687,"text":"正式化他們清楚會有後遺症嗎?比如說現在83%的禁用率我一綁了公務化可能禁用率可能會低於40甚至現在在的人要重新考高考這樣是真的他們清楚的嗎?他們想了一下之後那他們真的要的是我剛才跟大家報告的那如果我們在附帶決議立法說明寫清楚他組織把定性他的規格應該在哪一個層級"},{"start":22133.948,"end":22144.376,"text":"他的預算、他的主管人員這一次都發現問題了,做很好的處理,看條文寫漂亮一點,立法說明寫清楚,甚至還附帶決議,讓這件事情的未來運作也不會出狀況。我覺得以後可能會比,再加上剛剛趙偉講的,未來心思上做一點調整,"},{"start":22153.743,"end":22163.925,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 中﹑一、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人"},{"start":22183.533,"end":22197.496,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":22198.831,"end":22199.031,"text":"范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":22219.601,"end":22242.647,"text":"林宜瑾委員這個修正動議我也蠻支持的只是我對有些地方有點不確定還想要再去詢問我們相關的專業團體所以我是還是希望這條招委可以支持這個部分保留那您的附帶決議我是會支持好不好那這樣子大家就圓滿一點快達成目的了我們圓滿一點問題是禮拜四馬上又要來我們這個部分還是要重新來一遍給你兩天時間好不好幫我們的意見來楊瓊瑛委員"},{"start":22256.999,"end":22272.483,"text":"我真的感謝但是我真的充分建議教育委員會我們那個時間還是要有所稍微定一下因為坊間我們在所有學校家長學校真的都很迫切需要"},{"start":22273.513,"end":22274.754,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":22291.106,"end":22311.672,"text":"對,對對對,所以我說,因為我們充分討論環迴的時候,我盡量有共識行政部門,因為這樣子一直拖地方,我講的各個面向當然很需要,我最怕的就是這些人才會跑掉,我們要怎麼辦?沒有理由不給他們公平的對待啦,好不好?好,謝謝"},{"start":22313.376,"end":22326.79,"text":"感謝楊卓英委員。還有沒有?不然的話,因為我們現在從條文已經審完畢了。但是有些附帶決議還有我們需要保留的部分。來,我們是不是,我看一下。所以第4條,你補充一下。"},{"start":22333.739,"end":22360.039,"text":"這個第四條正式化我們討論很久其中我很關注的是這個輔導人員他如果有兼任主管或兼任行政工作我們如何在薪資待遇上給他這個恰當的提升因為那如果你不是正式化就不是加級那你可能是用獎勵的方式所以不管是在這個修法的文字當中或是立法說明現在先保留但是我希望到時協商教育部這裡可以給一個更明確的"},{"start":22361.42,"end":22379.007,"text":"就是確保說如果他是有兼任行政工作的話我們會給他你用獎勵或是福利的方式讓他在實際的收入上面是有所提升的好我們第四條就保留請教育部都有記錄剛剛委員的一些意見那我們是不是先討論四之一上禮拜我們沒有討論到四之一好不好四之一目前為止"},{"start":22388.442,"end":22392.867,"text":"四之一目前為止陳佩玉委員跟葛如君委員還有羅廷偉委員有沒有人要幫他們發言的沒有的話四之一交一部委員的提案四之一有兩項"},{"start":22405.885,"end":22423.193,"text":"第一項講的就是批用的這個心理師、社工師可以逐年增加預算跟員額那這一項就是說在現行法的第22條其實已經有提到第三條已經界定的"},{"start":22424.053,"end":22437.538,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 第2、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第2會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第2會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第2會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第2會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第2會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第2會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾"},{"start":22453.604,"end":22473.524,"text":"福島教師、專業福島人員及承認福島主任者。上次大家討論有意見的是這一條,承認福島主任者。我想因為我們在第四條的授權執法裡頭,它有定人員資格以及遴選的部分。所以我想將來的執法裡頭,對於承認福島主任的人,要不要定更延期的要求?"},{"start":22475.366,"end":22476.447,"text":"三、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":22503.018,"end":22526.085,"text":"提問版的第3項第4條第3項就是由主管機關臨選具輔導專業專長者擔任然後我們在第4條執法會有資格跟臨選的相關的規範以確保其專業性好 培育委員因為你在現場 OK好 那就好 貴育群委員"},{"start":22528.266,"end":22548.418,"text":"我提醒一下就是那個輔資中心其實常常會因為那個人力喔然後太好用被賦予很多其他形形色色的一些角色啦那我想那個輔資中心的一個主任是常常沒辦法久任的一個原因其實專業只是其中之一但其實還有很多大家對他這個位置不同的一些期待啦提醒一下對以上回應一下"},{"start":22551.482,"end":22581.014,"text":"我說明一下這一塊無法透過修法來解決這一塊將來可能在國家署這一塊需要多一點協助支持讓各縣市所選出來的這個輔助中心的主任要具備專業的能力同時要創造很多機會讓他們可以縣市之間多一點觀摩交流的機會讓他們可以理解如何帶好這個團隊來支援學校這個可能有很多配套措施要做啦"},{"start":22581.274,"end":22606.022,"text":"好,那我們四之一目前為止的話,就是照你剛剛說的是建議不予徵訂嘛,好不好?那有關於第四條的部分,因為還牽涉到我們的薪資,所以我們就予以保留,所以沒有第五條,第五條也是保留啊,第五條就是有關職能的部分嘛,對不對?我們是保留嘛,那你這邊是七之一第六條的"},{"start":22608.627,"end":22635.655,"text":"第二條附帶決議第六條附帶決議有陳培宇委員提案的附帶決議還有一個范雲委員提到的你們應該都手上都有資料嘛好不好我們先處理這兩個不用唸了吧還要唸嗎不用了陳培宇委員的是第六條的那個范雲委員是放在第11條是不是要拉回第六條一樣都是實驗教育的部分那我想因為那個國教署好像有"},{"start":22637.483,"end":22666.861,"text":"有溝通了嗎?噢對,因噴法修正通過後三個月內強化宣導現有輔導規範,六個月內會同地方政府研議進進落實的機制,使學校輔導工作服務更作為周延,並提出書面報告送交教文會。是不是那個,兩個要整合嗎?還是?OK,OK,好那就才,這個就配合辦理。好,那就配合辦理。"},{"start":22668.735,"end":22688.721,"text":"他們兩個就整合過了嘛,你去問他們的。好,那第10條我們保留,第11條我們保留,第12條我們保留,第16條因為是陳佩瑜委員有特別提到這個倫理的這個層面的部分嘛,我們就保留第17條跟第17條之一也是保留,沒有錯吧?"},{"start":22689.226,"end":22689.646,"text":"三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":22718.633,"end":22741.789,"text":"范雲委員、郭玉琴委員、慈培委員跟陳秀寶委員。怎麼樣?負擔決議,第三條。第三條是,我們有一段文字建議可以左調,就是但現行資源並不足夠,這個文字我們建議,OK,其餘就配合辦理。"},{"start":22743.687,"end":22751.875,"text":"九、繼續審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第9條負貸決議：立法院第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 第9條負貸決議：立法院第1會期教育及文化委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":22771.991,"end":22777.313,"text":"第9條的附帶決議我們配合辦理。接下來我們處理第10條的附帶決議,也是陳培宇委員提議。第10條的附帶決議。"},{"start":22802.88,"end":22825.907,"text":"小霞,一個月內可以嗎?好,那我們就修正後通過好不好,一個月改成三個月我們修正後通過。來,第11條"},{"start":22830.35,"end":22857.484,"text":"范雲等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草"},{"start":22861.812,"end":22890.817,"text":"十六條十六條就是維持現行條文然後附帶決議配合辦理對阿他剛剛已經講了配合辦理阿這是第十六條嗎這配合辦理阿十六條他早就說過了配合辦理兩個不一樣但是第一間應該都一樣這是全配一的部分喔"},{"start":22892.073,"end":22893.594,"text":"二、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":22919.093,"end":22942.647,"text":"二十四條范雲委員的附帶決議來教育部那個有一點文字想修正委員的提案是第11條正式施行前那我們建議把它修改成學輔法公佈後其實時間點是同樣的就是以那個公佈那個點切點點三個月"},{"start":22948.956,"end":22977.746,"text":"二十四條先確定一下。你們聽得懂嗎?學輔法公佈前。公佈後。請教育部在學輔法公佈後與三個月內。三個月內。好。那接下來還有我們葛如君的修正動議。你看到嗎?負擔決議。不好意思。負擔決議。葛如君的負擔決議關於AI的部分。"},{"start":22982.851,"end":23007.408,"text":"我們都很支持我們只是想跟各位商量是不是可以給我們比較足夠的時間因為後續涉及AI科技如何導入我們會需要進一步邀請學者專家我在我在我也是提案人我們是建議可以給我們6個月的時間我同意6個月的時間然後修正後通過所以現在呢"},{"start":23011.531,"end":23011.984,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具"},{"start":23015.114,"end":23019.838,"text":"關於今天的會議做如下的一個決定今天的審查結果免予重複宣讀在不影響條文文藝前提下文字條次及標點符號為統一體力授權議事人員修改列入記錄為與採納條文授權議事人員來確認關於今天的會議"},{"start":23043.095,"end":23050.863,"text":"我們作成以下的決議對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆的部分請相關機關迅速以書面來作答覆那學生輔導法已經全部審查完略不須交由黨團協商你不是要交由你當然要要交由你寫得衝煞了"},{"start":23067.279,"end":23082.014,"text":"我看了也覺得哈。需交由黨團協商並按擬具審查的報告提請院會討論。院會討論時有柯昭吉委員之恩補充說明。報告委員會今天的議程處理完畢。我們現在散會。謝謝各位。"},{"start":23087.093,"end":23089.354,"text":"張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":23104.072,"end":23106.173,"text":"張雅琳等二、繼續審查委員張雅琳等二、繼續審查委員"},{"start":23126.631,"end":23131.999,"text":"林宜瑾等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"}]}},{"id":"16073","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16073","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e24c05d0b3147a6076425655b8120616f4f242ceca9577839f928010ecd11f4f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-08T08:30:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T10:09:00+08:00","duration":5940,"影片長度":"01:39:00","委員發言時間":"08:30:00 - 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各位看到了齁 從這樣的情緒從這樣的情緒好 就是這樣子當時有四個委員會都被民進黨的立法委員來參換當時他們參會對這個委員會經濟委員會還有國防外交委員會還有 哦 另外一個是"},{"start":2007.329,"end":2020.774,"text":"司法法治委員會太好了司法法治委員會四個委員會同樣的今天我們的財政委員會今天找了包含我們的中央銀行"},{"start":2021.493,"end":2048.558,"text":"包含我們的金管會包含我們的數發部這麼多的官員尤其我們彭主委還有我們的總裁彭總裁、楊總裁通通在現場他們平常有多少的教育多少的公務要忙但是今天我們的高位郭博文又無法靠近民進黨根本就是無法無心"},{"start":2048.865,"end":2055.111,"text":"本來今天禮拜一我們的郭國文委員他本來是要排台南考察"},{"start":2055.401,"end":2083.729,"text":"結果呢因為今天他們要來非可內政委員會所以呢他就排了今天的專題報告好 今天排了專題報告那所有的人通通和郭董文一起到台北來可是他現在呢就跑掉了不願意開會這真的就是不折不扣的清水小偷大家想想看9點到了"},{"start":2083.729,"end":2100.549,"text":"各位參與稍為參與應該來召開我們今天的專題報告的會議今天我們第一個增進的就是機構副委員啊您的副委員找找到這邊準備提起他的題目"},{"start":2100.589,"end":2129.497,"text":"準備實習他的應該要做的事情但是呢我們稍微竟然跑掉了讓我們所有的官員面面相覷所有的官員在這邊干等候嗎所以我們真的要強力的譴責民進黨強力的譴責我們的郭博文稍微竟然剛才說不可遂我們到了現場就是說要開會啊他們竟然跑進去跑出去幹什麼呢"},{"start":2129.497,"end":2154.869,"text":"他跑出去幹什麽呢?他是去上廁所嗎?他說他那裡有鑰匙,有什麽鑰匙呢?他的鑰匙就是民進黨要背的議事,要會開不成。財政委員會會開不成。現在連我們財政委員會都開不成。對,現在做議事可以這樣嗎?議事來攀換我們所有的議事。"},{"start":2155.538,"end":2184.34,"text":"所以這真的是非常非常鐵的事情但我們真的要強力譴責與立法我們事實上在上個禮拜就跟他們說你們不可能不可以用這樣的方式來參換自己來做金錢小偷那麼尤其我們這麼多重要的部會他們的公務這麼如此的繁忙那今天我們稍微就排定好我們這個所關於數位貨幣的這個創始"},{"start":2184.701,"end":2193.712,"text":"規劃,三個部會統統都已經準備好了要來做報告,要來接受質詢。"},{"start":2194.121,"end":2222.801,"text":"為什麼我們稍微自己就巴拉拉的時間跑掉了呢?所以我們在這邊我們在這邊要詳細的解說過去立法院所謂的還說在立法院還有說委員在立法院都非常激烈從來沒有看過這樣子為了貝殼這種委員會讓其他的委員會全部賠償這真的是非常非常狹密的解釋"},{"start":2231.476,"end":2261.081,"text":"總裁金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技創新發展空間"},{"start":2269.104,"end":2296.166,"text":"中央銀行創新發展空間與扶植金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技"},{"start":2301.456,"end":2301.797,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2347.936,"end":2354.507,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2381.203,"end":2406.439,"text":"創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技創新發展空間"},{"start":2418.057,"end":2418.077,"text":"報告．"},{"start":2458.592,"end":2485.19,"text":"創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技創新發展"},{"start":2533.234,"end":2562.312,"text":"貨幣貨幣貨幣貨幣"},{"start":2563.933,"end":2591.493,"text":"貨幣貨幣貨幣貨幣貨幣"},{"start":2596.476,"end":2602.352,"text":"主席"},{"start":2632.478,"end":2640.106,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2715.12,"end":2738.572,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2743.66,"end":2770.19,"text":"創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技創新發展"},{"start":2771.34,"end":2775.363,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":2804.77,"end":2832.551,"text":"…………………………………………"},{"start":2840.52,"end":2868.467,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":2871.7,"end":2897.64,"text":"全體委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2931.767,"end":2939.752,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2974.94,"end":3000.139,"text":"我剛才有跟大家報告本來我們今天是提議原來的計程是郭柏惠他要安排到台北但是他為了要配合民進黨今天的談判進行所以臨時在G7把這個計程單據報告安排在G7"},{"start":3000.845,"end":3029.767,"text":"我所瞭解的是我們的官員其實有聯繫兩天加班為了要來今天來報告今天要準備專題報告嘛對不對他們一定要準備他們聯繫加班然後準備這樣的專題報告結果我們稍微根本不當自我而言把所有的官員包含央行、包含金管會還有副發課的官員叫到"},{"start":3030.026,"end":3059.849,"text":"我們各位委員會之後亮在一天亮在一天真的完全已經是無法無天你們自己當之前小偷還要耽誤我們所有執政官員的他們的公務和職責現在的郭博文委員他到哪裏去我們在這邊結席郭博文委員請您趕快回到現場來開會"},{"start":3062.645,"end":3076.832,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3078.729,"end":3106.879,"text":"再退一萬步你也趕快趕回來來簽簿我們這些展會不要讓我們所有的官員還有我們的自己的朋友在這邊靠在這裡對 出座在這裡各位也將透過我們這些立法院的提供除非郭卓文委員的辦公室也在現場你們其實也看到現在已經多派"},{"start":3113.552,"end":3118.402,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":3126.511,"end":3152.731,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":3155.82,"end":3177.852,"text":"還知道8月1日吧．那時候碰到黃珊珊委員．那個黃珊委員來介紹．然後他就說聽說今天開不成．我就覺得非常奇怪啊．今天為什麼開不成．大家全部都來介紹了．而且我們大概全部都在一起．都可以去介紹．有點多就介紹了．"},{"start":3178.08,"end":3200.554,"text":"所以我們最早無解說林昭和委員就已經開始宣告了但是竟然原來他們是一同早就不想開會不想開會也不去雖然也不來做一個提議好讓我們所有的觀眾我們媒體朋友還有這邊是我們黨團的同仁好好的把開竅有多少位觀眾坐在這裡"},{"start":3201.834,"end":3213.329,"text":"我們難道我們的金管會在我們的中央銀行還有我們的數位發展部一起閒閒沒事情嗎?有這麼多的官員就在這邊在只有我們一群人要來探索"},{"start":3293.063,"end":3322.415,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":3323.439,"end":3342.978,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4659.351,"end":4680.481,"text":"都沒有其他會議要開發"},{"start":4694.002,"end":4720.909,"text":"主席、副委員、副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":4724.565,"end":4748.968,"text":"主委,想不想回去辦公?想!每一個人都不想坐在這裡。要是不行,就不要坐在這裡。但是,我們中國人稍微,既不開會,也不宣布上會,讓大家還值得在這邊等。這就是工作。打了,沒有討論。"},{"start":4761.51,"end":4781.132,"text":"我們要開會我們要開會請找出國文稍微找出國文稍微我們要開會我們要開會"},{"start":4799.002,"end":4823.592,"text":"臺灣貨幣貨幣貨幣"},{"start":4835.503,"end":4860.829,"text":"如果不想拍錄：如果您是想不想拍錄：如果您不想拍錄：如果您是想不想拍錄："},{"start":4864.718,"end":4894.377,"text":"我們要開會我們要開會解禁郭昭偉解禁郭昭偉現在看得到郭昭偉郭昭偉就是一直往下滾因為他有自己講的動作全力阻擋全力阻擋"},{"start":4894.855,"end":4924.684,"text":"頒獎頒獎頒獎"},{"start":4925.418,"end":4952.995,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":4956.067,"end":4974.897,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4988.131,"end":5017.824,"text":"貨幣貨幣貨幣貨幣貨幣"},{"start":5018.302,"end":5048.012,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":5048.848,"end":5078.626,"text":"…………………………"},{"start":5079.087,"end":5108.167,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5110.282,"end":5136.453,"text":"我們要開會!我們要開會!提醒郭昭文!提醒郭昭文!今天我們創造的貨幣貨幣都在我們會議上的端端"},{"start":5152.005,"end":5181.846,"text":"中央銀行楊總裁金龍就提及中央銀行楊總裁金龍就提及中央銀行楊總裁金龍"},{"start":5182.346,"end":5205.329,"text":"所有的首長都在現場接受訪問稍微領悟正面的訪問就講為了抑鬱之心、為了盛場之心、盛場之力讓任國家金融財政發展的前途不斷所以我們在這裡強烈要求他人回來舉行會議"},{"start":5206.152,"end":5222.551,"text":"稍稍稍稍稍稍稍"},{"start":5224.453,"end":5251.985,"text":"臺灣的金融、財政、大家現在擔心的炸片、大家現在擔心的炒房全部都是在我們財政委員會裡面委員提出提出關聯來做一個、做一個跟委員做一個聯繫"},{"start":5253.933,"end":5259.819,"text":"我們要開會我們要開會我們要開會"}]}},{"id":"154590","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154590","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb618808da38a21784f5eadc60d4aee12d0068d4778a13499523dbcf9929a4b2f71515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"13:43:31 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11:46:25","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T11:35:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T11:46:25+08:00","duration":648,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":965,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時35分）謝謝主席，先請文化部、國安局跟調查局。"],["主席：請國安局、文化部還有調查局，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：其實我的題目跟在場的所有官員都有關，不過我們一個一個來，首先我先請文化部王政次。","次長你好。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：我們看到這是一個發生在2023年10月的案子了，蒙藏文化中心有科員涉及為中國來探詢藏獨情資，且依國安法已經起訴了。其實我舉這個案子，我們知道現在已經是在偵辦當中，但我想要強調的就是以我們今天的命題可以看得出來，中國的滲透早就已經伸出魔爪，包括連文化部這裡都有，更不要講今天很多委員所關心的就是中國記者的部分。所以我想請問現在這樣的一個案件當中，文化部有沒有進行哪些內部跟行政的調查？"],["王次長時思：如果以這個蒙藏文化中心的案子來說，我們在當時就立刻進行了一些約談的行政調查，這個案子因為也牽涉到檢方的起訴，所以在當時我們立即在隔天就停職，就是請他先離開工作場域，避免有任何可能性可以接觸到相關的文件資料。"],["林委員楚茵：所以當時刺探相關情資的這位人員是受到中國相關組織所吸納或吸收嗎？你們知道的狀況又是怎麼樣？"],["王次長時思：就我們的行政調查，因為本案已經進入司法調查，我就不特別說明內容，不過就我們的理解來說，他不這樣認為，他覺得那是他的朋友。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以我要強調的是，過去一直以來，中國滲透的面向是非常多的，包括……主席，我要請NCC，我也請文化部或者是國安局、調查局來瞭解一下，有媒體人直接在電視節目上面說，他們有中國的朋友寄來了高價手機，誰寄的他不知道，但他說打開來真好用。我先問一下調查局的局長，局長，如果你收到一個中國來的朋友但不知道是誰，寄一個手機給你，竟然敢拿來用，而且還在電視上講它好用，這個不奇怪嗎？"],["陳局長白立：這非常奇怪。"],["林委員楚茵：那這樣的案子，你們有沒有想要主動來做調查跟瞭解呢？"],["陳局長白立：我想媒體朋友收到客人寄來的禮物，應該不會是我們調查局立案的依據，可能還要參酌是否還有其他比較可疑的跡象、徵候，我們可能才會有立案的條件。"],["林委員楚茵：所以國安局呢？如果蔡局長今天收到一支來自中國，卻不知道誰寄給你的，號稱是中國朋友送的高價手機，還是某個品牌的，結果竟然說：哇！真好用。這個不奇怪嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想對於一些……"],["林委員楚茵：如果沒有人檢舉，我現在在這裡就請你來調查這個案子，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：資通訊安全的問題確實是我們關注的重點，對於對岸所製作的手機或是相關通訊軟體的資安風險，我想各單位都有做一些警示。委員所提到的這個案例到底有沒有違法的樣態，可能目前還沒有構成要件。"],["林委員楚茵：好，如果調查局跟國安局都認為沒有違法樣態，來！NCC，這就變成打廣告囉！"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員……"],["林委員楚茵：因為剛剛調查局跟國安局都說他們違法的樣態沒有很明確，本席從媒體出來，我們知道特定商品是不能拿到電視上面、尤其是新聞頻道做置入的，那這就置入了，是不是？因為如果沒有違法樣態，那就是置入啦！兩個一定有一個嘛！他不違法，因為剛剛都說他的違法樣態還不明顯，不一定是中國的資通訊，那好啊！那他就是為特定品牌打廣告囉，NCC有沒有要開罰？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，按照廣電法是對商品或服務有置入行銷……"],["林委員楚茵：他說這個手機很好用，隨手一拍驚為天人……"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：假使有具體的檢舉，我們會……"],["林委員楚茵：好，我具名檢舉。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：好，假使民眾有檢舉的話，我們會送到廣播電視節目內容諮詢委員會去審議。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我要強調的是，其實在場的各位都針對國家安全肩負起非常重要的任務，因為中國在22條所營造的長臂管轄是一個新的法律戰的應對，包括蔡局長，我們其實在這裡不只講過一次……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["林委員楚茵：我們講到的是，這樣的22條最高可以判死刑，對於民眾來講，尤其現在是暑假期間，剛剛前面有非常多的委員都特別提到，如果他們都是用這種藏於無形之中的方式，一方面滲透臺灣、一方面用法律戰來造成人民的恐慌……我舉個例子，如果以現在中國所設定的，利用職權再教育，以文化、歷史跟新聞媒體等領域來扭曲或篡改臺灣是中國的一部分，如果一個老師只是在課堂上講中華民國不屬於中華人民共和國，那麼他會不會心生恐懼？","再來談到剛剛的媒體人，他收到一支手機，這到底是不是禮物？是不是要他來為中國美言？如果講臺灣、中華民國不是中華人民共和國的一部分可能會被判死刑，但是收個手機當作禮物、來做美言，他可能不會有任何的後果，所以像這樣，如果連一般民眾要做政治表態都害怕的時候該怎麼辦？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我想法律戰確實是我們關注的重點，在國際上，中國透過聯合國2758號決議案塑造國際一中的框架，在這框架之下限縮臺灣的主權地位。","另外，兩岸交流也正像委員所提到的，他們提出所謂的懲獨22條，以此希望對臺灣實施長臂管轄，但臺灣是一個主權、民主、自由的國家，不會讓他們的長臂管轄到我們境內來，但風險在於國人到對岸去，要特別瞭解他們國安新的法制對我們造成的風險。這也是為什麼我們一再利用各種的詢答機會跟國人報告，一定要注意到對岸旅遊可能的風險存在在哪裡，以及剛剛王定宇委員提醒我們把這些相關的國人背景樣態，哪些人是高風險的，也應該要透過我們的機制讓國人更清楚瞭解這個狀況，這我們會來努力。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以我們其實現在要面對的是……本席其實在總質詢時也特別詢問了卓榮泰院長，卓院長當時就講了，最可怕的其實是文化入侵，在文化入侵的情況底下，它不會有任何的型態、樣態，它就是方方面面的滲透臺灣，它可以是用所謂融合、融臺，也可能是威嚇打臺灣。如果在我質詢之後，請問院長會找相關的部會針對文化入侵做相關的示警，或者是跨部會的瞭解嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：行政院的部分可能要請行政院來說明……"],["林委員楚茵：好，主席，有請陸委會。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["林委員楚茵：卓院長已經特別提到文化入侵是最可怕的，而且行於無形之間，剛剛我舉的那幾個例子都只是要強調，今天不是只有在野黨立委或者是其他政黨的立委，包括民進黨立委所關心的媒體在後面監控，它說不定已經滲透進去了，包括剛剛我講的華為手機事件，你們有收到相關的訊息嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們有注意到這樣的訊息。"],["林委員楚茵：這樣的訊息之後有沒有更進一步的動作跟瞭解，包括行政院相關單位，到底由誰來負責主責？因為國安局或調查局……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：到目前為止，文化入侵有一塊是陸委會在處理，譬如說宗教或者是其他文化方面，所以陸委會其實對這方面的訊息相當注意，有一部分可能是文化部會去理解，但因為文化入侵比較不是一個用法律可以去界定的概念，所以我覺得對調查局或者是相關司法單位來說會比較困難，因為中共講說入臺、入腦、入心，它入到你的腦、入到你的心，可是在表面上可能又沒有違反任何法律……"],["林委員楚茵：所以副主委您的言下之意是，有一個部分是陸委會負責，但又有一部分是文化部王次長這裡負責，那這樣的分工會不會出現了盲點，沒有一個統合訊息的機制？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：確實政府在相關的防禦工作上，盲點一定是有的，所以我們經常就是……現在這個有點像是對方的攻擊非常多面，但是防守的部分確實有點……很多時候會有點疲於奔命。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以……"],["蔡局長明彥：我補充說明一下，就臺灣來講，要捍衛我們的國家安全以及反制中共的統戰滲透，最大、最重要的武器就是法律，所以我們的法律工具一定要完備，這也是為什麼剛剛王定宇委員一再提醒我們，我們從各種不同案例當中怎麼樣找出樣態，在適用我們國家法律過程當中又有哪些灰色地帶不適用的地方，這部分我們配合貴院來做一些相關的檢討跟提供意見給各位委員參考。"],["林委員楚茵：好，局長，因為時間有限，我只希望透過這幾個具體案例的提示，希望國安局、調查局或是其他相關的部會能夠有所整合，千萬不要出現一個案例才去動作，那這個時候可能他們就已經拍拍屁股走人、已經離開了，這其實是我們最不希望的，是不是可以把其他相關且同樣的樣態再做進一步的整理，交給我們外交及國防委員會？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員提醒，我們來處理。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請洪申翰委員、洪申翰、洪申翰委員不在。","今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有陳永康委員、洪申翰委員、牛煦庭委員、葉元之委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.11096875,"end":1.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.12784375,"end":1.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.22909375,"end":1.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.8703437500000002,"end":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呃 王珍次長你好 呃 我們來看到就是"},{"start":21.801,"end":51.041,"text":"這個是一個發生在2023年10月的案子了蒙藏文化中心有科員涉及為中國來探尋藏獨情資那麼一國安法已經起訴了其實我舉這個案子我們知道現在已經是在偵辦當中我想要強調的就是以我們今天的命題可以看得出來中國的滲透其實早就已經生出魔炸包括連文化部這裡都有那麼更不要講今天很多委員所關心的就是"},{"start":51.981,"end":59.667,"text":"中國的記者的部分所以我想請問現在這樣的一個案件當中文化部有沒有進行哪些內部跟行政的調查"},{"start":60.768,"end":89.029,"text":"如果以這個文化中心的案子來說我們在當時就立刻有進行了一些約談的行政調查那一個案子因為也牽涉到檢方的起訴那所以在當時我們就立即就隔天我們就立刻停職就是請他先離開工作場域避免有任何可能性可以接觸到相關的文件資料所以當時這一個刺探相關的情資的這一位人員他是受到中國的相關的組織所吸納或吸收嗎那你們知道的狀況又是怎麼樣"},{"start":91.331,"end":116.807,"text":"就我們的行政調查來說因為本案已經進入司法調查我就不特別說明內容不過就我們的理解來說他不這樣認為他覺得是他的朋友啦好所以我要強調的就是在我們過去一直以來中國的滲透的面向是非常多的包括主席我要請NCC我也請包括現在文化部或者是國安局或調查局來瞭解一下"},{"start":118.608,"end":145.981,"text":"這個有媒體人直接就在電視上面在節目上面說他們有中國的朋友寄來了高價的手機誰寄的他不知道但他會說打開來真好用我先問一下我們調查局的局長局長如果你收到一個中國來的朋友但是是誰不知道寄一個手機給你竟然敢拿來用而且還在電視上講好用這個不奇怪嗎"},{"start":146.841,"end":170.688,"text":"這非常非常奇怪那這樣的案子你們有沒有主動想要來做調查跟了解咧我想這些媒體的朋友他們收到客人寄來的禮物應該不會是我們調查局立案的一個依據啦可能還要看參酌如果還有其他的一些比較可疑的跡象增後的話我們可能還會有立案的條件所以國安局呢"},{"start":171.428,"end":183.834,"text":"今天如果蔡局長你收到一支來自中國不知道誰寄給你的號稱是中國來的朋友送的高價手機啊然後是某個品牌的啊結果拿來居然說哇真好用"},{"start":185.814,"end":210.565,"text":"這個不奇怪嗎?對我想對於一些...如果沒有人檢舉我現在在這裡就請你來調查這個案子好不好?就資通訊安全的問題確實是我們的關注重點那對於對岸製作的手機或是相關的通訊軟體的資安風險那我想各單位都有做一些警示那委員所提到這個案例他到底有沒有違法的樣態這個可能目前還沒有構成要件好如果"},{"start":211.745,"end":233.929,"text":"調查局跟國安局都認為沒有違法樣態那來NCC這就變成打廣告囉因為剛剛調查局跟國安局都說他們這個違法的樣態沒有很明確本席媒體出來我們知道特定商品是不能拿到電視上面尤其是新聞頻道來做置入的喔那這就置入了是不是"},{"start":234.429,"end":246.786,"text":"因為如果沒有違法樣態那就置入啦兩個一定有一個嘛不違法因為剛剛都說這個違法樣態還不一定有明顯嘛不一定是中國的資通訊那好啊那那就是為特定品牌打廣告囉那NCC有沒有要開罰"},{"start":249.858,"end":261.154,"text":"報告委員這個在按照廣電法上面是對商品或服務有置入行銷他說這個手機很好用捏隨手一拍驚為天人好我具名檢舉"},{"start":266.601,"end":272.605,"text":"好 那我們假使民眾有檢舉的話我們會送到廣播電視節目內容諮詢委員會去審議好 我要強調的就是其實在場的各位都針對國家的安全兼複習非常重要的任務喔因為中國在22條它所營造的這種長臂管轄是一個所謂新的法律戰的應對喔包括蔡局長我們其實不只在這裡一次我們講到的是"},{"start":291.779,"end":309.813,"text":"這樣的一個22條他講出來最高可以判死刑對於民眾來講尤其現在是暑假期間剛剛前面非常多的委員都特別提到了如果他們都是用這種藏於無形之中一方面滲透台灣一方面再用法律戰來造成人民的恐慌我舉個例子"},{"start":310.774,"end":327.609,"text":"如果以現在中國所設定的利用職權在教育、文化、歷史跟新聞、媒體等領域來扭曲或篡改台灣是中國的一部分我就講一個老師他如果只是在課堂上講說中華民國不屬於中華人民共和國"},{"start":328.459,"end":356.453,"text":"那麼他會不會就心生恐懼再來就是剛剛媒體人他收到一支手機這到底是不是禮物是不是要他來為中國美顏因為如果講台灣中華民國不是中華人民的一部分可能會被判死刑但是收個手機來當禮物來做美顏他有可能不會有任何的後果所以像這樣連一般民眾如果都要做政治表態都害怕的時候該怎麼辦"},{"start":357.469,"end":383.282,"text":"對我想就法律戰的部分確實是我們關注的重點因為在國際上中國透過聯合國2758號決議案塑造這種國際一中的框架那在這框架之下去限縮台灣的主權地位另外在兩岸交流的部分也正像委員所提到的他提出所謂的成都22條那以這部分希望對台灣來實施這種長臂管轄但台灣是一個主權民主自由的國家不會讓他的長臂管轄到我們境內來但是風險在於"},{"start":384.462,"end":405.971,"text":"國人到對岸去的話就要特別了解到他們國安新的法制對我們造成的風險那這也是為什麼我們一再利用各種的尋答機會跟國人報告的一定要注意到到對岸旅遊可能的風險存在在哪裡那以及剛剛王定友也在提醒我們把這些相關國人的背景樣態哪些人是高風險的也應該要透過我們的機制讓國人更清楚了解這個狀況這我們來努力"},{"start":407.512,"end":413.015,"text":"好,所以我們其實現在要面對的是本席其實在總質詢的時候也特別詢問了卓榮泰卓院長卓院長當時就講了最可怕的其實是文化入侵那麼在文化入侵的情況底下他不會有任何的形態、樣態他就是方方面面的滲透在台灣他可以是用所謂融合、融台"},{"start":432.585,"end":432.705,"text":"請副主委"},{"start":460.56,"end":484.731,"text":"相關的卓院長已經特別提到了文化入侵是最可怕的而且是形與無形之間剛剛我舉的那幾個例子都只是要強調不是只有今天在野黨立委或者是其他政黨的立委包括民進黨立委所關心的這個媒體在後面監控的部分它事實上說不定已經滲透進去了包括剛剛我講的華為手機的事件你們有收到相關的訊息嗎"},{"start":485.984,"end":500.515,"text":"我們有注意到這樣的訊息那像這樣的訊息之後有沒有更進一步的動作跟瞭解包括行政院相關的到底誰來負責組折因為國安局或調查局到目前為止文化入侵的有一塊是陸委會這邊在處理"},{"start":505.699,"end":524.765,"text":"包括這個宗教或者是其他文化方面的這個所以我們陸委會其實對這方面的訊息是相當注意的那有一部分可能是文化部會去理解但是因為文化入侵它是一個比較不是用法律可以去界定的概念"},{"start":525.305,"end":528.006,"text":"所以副主委您的言下之意是有一個部分是陸委會來負責但是有一部分又是文化部次長王次長這裡來負責"},{"start":553.112,"end":581.085,"text":"那這樣的分工會不會就出現了盲點沒有一個統合的訊息的機制確實政府在相關的這些防禦工作上面確實盲點算是一定是有的盲點一定是有的所以我們經常就是現在這個有點像對方的攻擊非常多的方面但是防守的部分確實有點很多時候是會有點疲於奔命是"},{"start":582.466,"end":608.568,"text":"我想就台灣來講要捍衛我們的國家安全以及反制中共的統戰滲透最大的武器最重要的武器就是法律所以我們的法律工作法律工具一定要完備那這也是為什麼剛剛王定宇委員也在提醒我們我們從各種不同案例當中怎麼樣找出樣態那在適用我們的國家法律過程當中又有沒有哪些灰色地帶不適用的地方這部分我們還配合國務院來做一些相關的檢討跟提供意見給各位委員參考"},{"start":608.908,"end":609.208,"text":"好,謝謝委員提醒,好,我們來處理"},{"start":638.379,"end":639.102,"text":"謝謝接下來請洪森翰委員．洪森翰、洪森翰委員不在"}]}},{"id":"154567","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154567","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256ac4a26ce3fd696712ce876c6524d02f36123a2add11c74db04ed397689a3dd90d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"11:21:28 - 11:35:28","影片長度":"00:14:00","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T11:21:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T11:35:28+08:00","duration":840,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":857,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（11時21分）謝謝主席，麻煩國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委。"],["主席：國安局長、調查局長、陸委會副主委，請就備詢臺，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：委員早。"],["王委員定宇：局長，我們早上聽了一下，大概對於中國滲透臺灣媒體，曾經我也看媒體報導有幾個樣態，你看一下，這幾個樣態就你的業務來瞭解，不管是國安局或調查局，這些樣態是存在的嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，先跟委員說明一下，媒體報導這5個樣態並不是由國安局來提供……"],["王委員定宇：當然不是你們整理的。"],["蔡局長明彥：但是我們的案例當中也確實有看到幾個樣態所呈現出來的狀況……"],["王委員定宇：你們整理的樣態有沒有比這更多？"],["蔡局長明彥：可能會再稍微多一點。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有包括送手機？"],["蔡局長明彥：有注意到委員在講的這件事情。"],["王委員定宇：對，很特別，突然間有一天，有一群人統統拿一樣的華為的手機，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：都一樣的，而且都在那個區間裡面，這些樣態我倒覺得媒體有媒體報導的角度，我們尊重媒體跟它的消息來源，但作為國家的情報主管機關，你可能要整理一下你們的樣態，也許媒體人或者評論員，他不曉得這個人想要利用他，可是透過你們樣態的揭露，他會提高警覺，對於要送他東西，覺得怪怪的，你懂我意思嗎？不教而殺謂之虐嘛！所以這些東西我是建議國安局或調查局應該把樣態整理起來。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["王委員定宇：就這幾個樣態，剛才聽起來局長你很負責任地說，有關中國駐臺人員對媒體或者政論節目下指導棋，你是有這樣的情資。"],["蔡局長明彥：有這樣的情資。"],["王委員定宇：有這樣的情資，你接下來是要移送給……很多人誤以為國安局是調查單位……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們沒有。"],["王委員定宇：不是，國安局是情資蒐集單位。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：你有這個情資之後，你下一手應該是給調查局吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以我請調查局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["王委員定宇：局長，你有從國安局得到這樣的情資嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為按照業務上，它應該要給你嘛！你們查到現在，這些情資的真偽有沒有確認？"],["陳局長白立：我們目前還正在調查的階段。"],["王委員定宇：我剛才聽到情資你們有自己的來源，未必是媒體報導，然後情資有很多單位，包含國安局有提供給你們，你們也在整理當中，如果有涉及違法，你們可能就移送嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：現在比較麻煩的是，事實上中國對臺灣很多的樣態，我們臺灣的國安法律比韓國還要鬆，韓國如果有人替北朝鮮在韓國宣揚的話，我上次看到有一個被判了十多年，可是我們臺灣是把政治任務──比方說有來到臺灣統戰、宣揚中共的政治主張，我們臺灣相當程度都把他認為是言論自由，然後一旦他跨過那條線，付錢了、交付命令了、發展組織了，我們才有國安五法去處理他嘛！沒有錯嘛？"],["陳局長白立：是，沒有錯。"],["王委員定宇：所以本席要問你一個嚴肅問題，現在國安局給你的情資，你們也在彙整、也在查證當中，未來如果有涉及不法，當然我們就會看到移送的動作，這個未來會不會等很久？"],["陳局長白立：我們儘快，我們只能說儘快。"],["王委員定宇：蔡局長要補充？"],["蔡局長明彥：我補充一下，因為也有國內的媒體人已經向這個新華社記者提告了，所以檢方也已經立案在偵辦。"],["王委員定宇：有媒體人提告，檢方要查、要辦，除了問他提告的內容，檢察官一定會問檢調嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是，所以現在臺高檢署在指揮偵辦。"],["王委員定宇：所以高檢署有指揮你們在辦這個案子？"],["陳局長白立：有。"],["王委員定宇：OK，所以高檢署有跟你們調這些資料了？"],["陳局長白立：對，我們跟檢察官在聯絡。"],["王委員定宇：我剛才問的第一個層次問題是如果有違法，當然就會有起訴的動作……"],["陳局長白立：違法當然就是我們會移送起訴。"],["王委員定宇：可是我們常常在英文叫cooking──常常在辦這些案子的時候，都會經過相當長的時間，有些國安案件為了要查它的「肉粽捾」、整個組織脈絡有多大，有時候會等了三年、五年都有，這個案子你覺得會等很久嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我們是希望能夠儘快釐清整個事實，但是即便是釐清了整個狀況的話，可能在法制面我們還是要去研究委員剛剛提到的，就是統戰的行為跟我們目前的國安五法，甚至像反滲透法……"],["王委員定宇：法是不是有不足嘛！"],["陳局長白立：對，法是不是有不足的地方。"],["王委員定宇：所以調查局長，我剛才問的，你現在提到，我就要講第二個層次問題，第一個，我認為偵辦案件不能去逼你何時何月要出來，案子不是這樣辦的，但我們都希望儘快，如果有違法當然就依法起訴。我現在講的第二個樣態比較麻煩是，臺灣現在有一個狀況，陸委會可能要瞭解一下，國安局要瞭解一下，文化部可能要瞭解，大家都要瞭解一下，可是我們現在法律沒有規範，你知道嗎？明明知道他在進行政治滲透、政治統戰，查起來也確有其事，可能有一個人在指導某個節目或某個人在監督媒體，可是有沒有到法那個層次，我內心是有個問號啦！本席這邊建議你看可不可行，這件事情釐清之後，作為國家的調查局，認為確有其事，縱使未達移送法辦的程度，你們也應該要有一個報告出來，讓民眾有個識讀。我剛才看不分朝野啊，連國民黨的立委都要求趕快交代，我覺得這是好事。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：如果有這個事情，縱使未達違法移送的標準，但是確實有這樣的事情，我們今天立法院不分黨派的委員都在關注這個事情，將來如果不能移送，但確實有盯梢這樣的情形，你們願意不願意把人、事、時、地物清楚地有一份報告出來？"],["陳局長白立：這個部分因為有檢察官在指揮偵辦，今天委員的這個建議，我們會跟檢察官去反映，就是最後的調查結果……"],["王委員定宇：你跟高檢要講一下……"],["陳局長白立：由臺高檢署那邊來發言。"],["王委員定宇：起訴就要有起訴書，不起訴書常寫得不明不白，這件事情縱使不起訴，也要寫得清清楚楚。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為有時候不起訴是因為沒到達法律要件，不代表沒這件事情，你懂我意思嗎？所以這件事情，可能跟高檢溝通，不起訴書要把它寫清楚，會不會起訴我不知道，因為我們沒有看到證據。","好，剛才講到法律有沒有未竟之處。希望法務部調查局或者是國安局統合一下，有一些樣態行為在韓國列為違法，甚至有的判很重，而我們臺灣被威脅的情形是比它還要嚴重，我們卻把它用言論自由的方式去寬鬆對待。我不是反對言論自由，而是我們該不該檢討一下，它擺明了就要來統戰，擺明了就要執行中共的政策，但我們也好像莫可奈何，掌握一堆情資卻無可奈何，人民對這個是不耐的。所以是不是請國安局跟調查局整合一下，我們法律是不是有需精進修改的地方？我們立法委員應該也要做這樣事情，我不知道兩位局長有沒有什麼意見？"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上委員講的沒有錯，過去這兩年包括美國、英國、德國、荷蘭、日本、韓國跟澳洲都修改他們的國安法制，這部分我們會再積極來蒐集相關修法的方向與國內的樣態做個結合跟評估，看怎麼樣來精進我們相關修法的必要性。"],["王委員定宇：你提出一些修法建議嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們來處理。"],["王委員定宇：像之前國安五法，都會有法務、司法單位認為可行的方式，大家一起來研擬修法，我覺得這個洞要把它補起來。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，應該的。"],["王委員定宇：就像你看中國有沒有媒體自由，我想這個是社會常識，中國媒體揭櫫的條文就是要為中國共產黨服務。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：他們是要為黨服務才叫媒體，不為黨服務叫犯人，就抓去關了，所以中國沒有媒體自由這個事情。所以中國駐臺的媒體去執行不管中宣部或者是中共相關單位的命令，對他們來講是理所當然，依法有據，所以他們的媒體是要執行中共的意旨的。有7家實名的媒體駐點在臺灣，如果我們再加上一些他們在外面投資的，其實不止這個數量，如果他們涉及違法、影響臺灣公共利益，當然就要偵辦。請問一下，現在有沒有已經違法、損害臺灣公共利益的中國媒體，有沒有這樣的案子在偵辦中？內容我不問，有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：依照情工法的規定，對岸的民眾來臺灣進行交流，包括媒體的採訪，假如有違反他申請來臺的目的的話，我們……"],["王委員定宇：違反目的那是行政，我現在講法律。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會處理，我的意思是說只要有違反他在臺灣駐點採播的一些來臺目的的話，我們國安單位本來就有專案在注意這個問題。這也是為什麼……"],["王委員定宇：因為他違反來臺目的，有時候就請他出去嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對、對。"],["王委員定宇：我的意思是說違法而且損害臺灣公共利益，就一個法條在那裡嘛！違反來臺目的我們待會再講，有沒有違法樣態的案子在辦？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們有在注意，我們有在注蒐這樣的狀況，有，我們都在注蒐。"],["王委員定宇：好，我尊重你們偵查不公開啦！","第二個，如果他還沒到違法，他只是違反來臺目的或者執行相關策略，我剛才聽文化部次長說會取消他的記者證嘛，那他背後所代表的媒體或組織難道不用被處分嗎？這應該陸委會在管的吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：處分的部分，是不是請業管來說明？"],["王委員定宇：梁副主委，我們現在是針對媒體違規，可是你知道嗎？我認為中國派來駐臺的人是無辜的啊！他們依中共的法律是要服務中共的，所以他來這邊做任何事情哪有自由意志？所以我們只取消他的記者證，禁止他再來臺灣，其實我們沒有解決問題，他背後代表的那個力量新華社、人民日報等等，有沒有進一步取消他們派人駐點資格的機制？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該要看是他個人的行為，還是我們判斷是整個機構的行為？"],["王委員定宇：中國的記者在臺灣會有個人行為嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：過去曾經有例子，就是東南衛視在臺灣說是要來採訪，但實際上是在製播政論節目……"],["王委員定宇：對，在做節目。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以我們後來不但把東南衛視的記者請走，到目前為止，東南衛視所要申請來臺的記者，目前都還沒有允許過，所以是有前例的。"],["王委員定宇：我要提的這個例子就是說，那個記者只不過是爪牙，拔了爪牙還可以派另外一個爪牙來，是背後的那個組織，我們現在除了研擬法律以外，對這樣的組織應該要有一些處罰機制。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，因為在臺灣製播政論節目不可能是記者個人的行為。"],["王委員定宇：好，最後1分鐘。中國從去年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剛才講到法律有沒有未盡之處希望法務部調查局或者是國安局統合一下有一些樣態行為在韓國列為違法甚至有的判很重而我們台灣被威脅的情形是比它還要嚴重我們卻把它用言論自由的方式去寬鬆對待"},{"start":406.781,"end":430.926,"text":"我不是反對言論自由我們該不會檢討一下他擺明了就要來統戰擺明了就要執行中共的政策然後我們也好像莫可奈何掌握一堆情資卻無可奈何人民對這個是不耐的所以是不是請國安局跟調查局整合一下我們法律是不是應該有精進修改的地方那我們立法委員應該也要做這樣的事情我不知道兩位局長有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":432.535,"end":460.101,"text":"實際上委員講得沒有錯,過去這兩年包括美國、英國、德國、荷蘭、日本、韓國跟澳洲都修改他們的國安法制那這部分我們會再積極來收集相關修法的方向來看國內的樣態做個結合跟評估怎麼樣來精進我們相關修法的必要性對,連提出一些修法建議嘛,像之前我們國安無法出道都會有法務司法單位認為可行的方式大家一起來研擬修法,我覺得這個洞要把它補起來接下來你看齁"},{"start":461.061,"end":480.429,"text":"中國有沒有媒體自由我想這個是社會常識中國的媒體接駐的條文就是要為中國共產黨服務他們是要為黨服務才叫媒體不為黨服務叫犯人就抓去關了嘛所以中國沒有媒體自由這個事情所以中國駐台的媒體去執行不管中宣部"},{"start":481.289,"end":495.81,"text":"或者是中共相關單位的命令對他們來講是理所當然依法有據所以他們的媒體是要執行他們中共的意旨的所以在台灣有7加10名的媒體駐點在台灣如果我們再加上一些他們在外面投資的其實不只這個數量"},{"start":497.805,"end":520.636,"text":"涉及違法影響台灣公共利益當然就要偵辦我這個問題是請問一下現在有沒有已經違法損害台灣公共利益的中國媒體有沒有這樣的案子在偵辦中內容我不問有沒有因為依照秦公法的規定對岸的民眾來台灣進行交流包括媒體的採訪假如有違反他申請來台的目的的話違反目的是行政我現在講法律"},{"start":521.696,"end":541.593,"text":"我的意思是說只要他有違反他在台灣註點採播的一些來台的目的的話我們國安單位本來就有專案在注意這個問題因為他違反他來台目的有時候就請他出去嘛那我的意思是說違法而且損害台灣公共利益法就有一個法條在那裡嘛我們目前有違法樣態那個違反來台目的我們待會再講"},{"start":542.273,"end":567.666,"text":"有沒有違法的樣子?有沒有在註收這樣的狀況?有,我們都在註收。我尊重你們偵辦,偵查不公開啦。然後第二個,但如果他還沒到違法,他只是違反來台目的,或者在執行相關策略,我們現在用的是取,我剛才聽文化部副部長、次長之說,會取消他的記者證嘛。那他背後所代表的媒體或組織,難道不用被處分嗎?"},{"start":570.725,"end":594.255,"text":"處分的部分請葉管來說梁副主委我們現在是針對這個媒體違規可是你知道我認為中國派來駐台的人我認為他們無辜啊他們依他們中共的法律是要服務他們中共的所以他來做任何事情他有自由意志所以我只取消他的記者證禁止他再來台灣其實我沒有解決問題他背後代表的那個力量新華社啊人民日報啊等等"},{"start":595.296,"end":618.128,"text":"有沒有進一步去取消他們派人駐點的資格的機制應該說要看是他個人的行為還是我們判斷他是整個機構的行為中國的記者在談會的行為那過去曾經有例子就是東南衛視在台灣說是要來採訪但是實際上是在自播政論節目在做節目那所以我們後來不但把東南衛視的記者請走"},{"start":620.049,"end":639.129,"text":"到目前為止東南衛視他所要申請的申請來台的記者大概目前都還沒有允許過所以是有前例的我剛才提的就是這個例子就是說那個記者只不過是爪牙拔了爪牙可以派另外一個爪牙來背後的那個組織"},{"start":640.765,"end":667.479,"text":"我們現在研擬法律以外對這樣的組織應該有一些處罰機制是,因為在台灣自播政論節目它不可能是記者個人的行為好,前一頁我最後一分鐘現在從中國去年7月要執行反間諜法之後其他反間諜法啦什麼國家機密什麼什麼保護啦等等它有好多法啦它這些法都有一個共同的特色定義很模糊授權非常寬"},{"start":668.539,"end":697.148,"text":"公安部、國安部、大大小小官想怎麼幹就怎麼幹他說你違法就違法他在你的手機拿到一個香港加油搞不好就可以把你抓起來大概是這個樣態所以根據目前統計7月1號去年2023年到今年的6月30號一年的時間有42件47人然後被留置詢問拒絕進去的有6件6人我倒覺得被拒絕入境的人是有福氣的他讓你進去再抓起來的你還不知道怎麼辦"},{"start":698.53,"end":703.028,"text":"就國安局或相關單位的研究有沒有針對特定的群體"},{"start":703.789,"end":727.881,"text":"有,我們剛剛也跟秦大偉有說明過,第一個,假如說你在到對岸的過程當中,你有些特殊的身份的話,會被列為高風險的族群。比方說,曾經在政府部門服務過,特別是我們的國安系統或軍警部門,那另外是曾經在參與一些相關的公民的團體的活動,那可能有涉及到對中國自由民主人權的批判,這也是列為高風險族群。"},{"start":728.641,"end":752.563,"text":"再來是曾經在高科技產業那有涉及到高科技機敏機敏科技對機敏科技的也會被劉志來詢問國安局跟陸委會跟交通部一定要把這種警告把它具體化類似旅遊警告讓他知道去會有風險像你剛才講的你就漏掉兩個你看這個新聞就我們知道有一貫道的信徒"},{"start":754.28,"end":761.9,"text":"進去被關到現在他沒有做什麼事他就進去宣教而已我上次把兩個混在一起了我剛才私底下了解還有一個齁"},{"start":763.504,"end":786.235,"text":"我直接講他是青海無上師的信徒帶著速食推廣手冊也被關到現在他怎麼會知道他是高風險他也沒在政府機關任職他只不過有人去那邊洪教基督徒我還在調查有沒有去帶著聖經因為聖經在中國是禁書嘛國安局長我最後請教你目前這幾個人回來了沒啊一貫到跟青海無上師這些還沒有還關著對"},{"start":788.769,"end":790.01,"text":"中共的刑法叫做利用匯道門擾亂社會秩序"},{"start":812.691,"end":813.351,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154565","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154565","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a9f48d898c16e8bd5ce876c6524d02f36123a2add11c74db0b4a53015686257145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:15:30 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謝謝"},{"start":10.717,"end":34.935,"text":"好 謝謝 我也是想要針對中共到底有沒有介入我們這輪節目的意思來跟各位請教我們先來問一下行政調查部分因為我看了大家的報告感覺行政調查是調查不出來的我先確定這件事情NCC是說已經在6月25號發行給中華民國廣電工會還有一些相關工會叫工會來回應會員的行為那工會是說不了解 是這樣嗎"},{"start":36.387,"end":62.725,"text":"跟委員報告NCC對那個廣播內容的監理都是事後監理就到現在為止沒有人來檢舉以上跟委員報告所以NCC還會不會有更積極的動作對就NCC而言跟委員報告我就講的就是我們都是事後監理所以你們就不會再有動作嗎我們是事後監理沒有沒有你就回答我問題沒有任何人來檢舉沒有任何的具體的證據NCC對於我們的國安是這麼的消極"},{"start":63.726,"end":89.867,"text":"那文化部我想請確認一下文化部也是一樣發函嘛對不對發給邀請單位跟新華社我們有約他們來談那談了嗎有約談已經談了然後有調查出相關的我們把所有的目前為止因為行政調查基本上就是文書提供跟約談所以我們把這個相關的內容綜整以後大概接下來就交給檢調看後續是不是有需要進行調查所以應該也他們也沒有說他們有這個行為嘛對不對對目前為止行政調查的結果就是沒有嗎是否認是否認好那請問一下那個陸委會"},{"start":93.569,"end":120.421,"text":"衛會是說因為找不到資深媒體人嗎：所以應該也不會再查了不是找不到資深媒體人而是我們有詢問報導的媒體自由時報有詢問過然後他們說他們的報導皆有鎖本而且經過合理的查證但是基於新聞倫理不能提供不能提供消息所以就不會也不會再查了嗎對不對好那所以那我想請教一下就是說所以舊陸委會NCC文化部的立場"},{"start":121.281,"end":136.811,"text":"這件事情是不是已經了結了應該說行政調查的全責範圍已經結束了嘛所以接下來就是看司法沒有錯是看司法跟國安那我請問一下國安單位國安局好不好請問一下國安局"},{"start":145.237,"end":157.404,"text":"我要講問一下局長因為這件事情當時平面媒體爆發出來的時候全台灣大家都震動包括民進黨黨團也當天就開記者會就是痛罵這件事情還把藍白扯進來"},{"start":158.776,"end":177.807,"text":"所以這個事情應該是真的但我剛剛這樣問一輪下來感覺好像NCC文化部跟陸委會也沒有把這件事情很當一回事就是說如果很積極的話這國安行為這麼嚴重滲透台灣太可怕了我們現在看政論節目都不知道說他到底是有沒有被滲透這麼嚴重的事情但我剛剛這樣問一輪我好像感覺沒有很嚴重"},{"start":179.648,"end":205.844,"text":"所以國安局現在態度如果說我請教一下如果入委會這邊有問自由時報然後自由時報不願意把他的效益來源提供出來那我們可不可以根據任何的國安因素請自由時報提供他的效益來源有可能嗎沒有沒有這個因為國安局並沒有行政調查權也沒有司法調查權所以我們才會把案子移交到調查局來進行偵辦所以要明清楚調查權所以現在是要調查局來偵辦"},{"start":208.444,"end":230.576,"text":"今天調查局也有來嗎?我可以請教一下那個調查局是局長對不對?局長我想問一下就是說今天因為是自由時報是有消息來源嘛就是資深媒體人他有相當的情資嘛他知道就是自由報導報導的那個資深媒體人有這個情資所以跟自由時報講了"},{"start":231.67,"end":247.797,"text":"那理論上來講假設啦 我說假設這件事情是真的那很嚴重嘛這是一個很大的國安問題嘛那但是現在自由時報基於新聞倫理啊他不願意提供這個資深媒體人的姓名然後也沒有辦法提供消息來源那就調查局的立場"},{"start":248.917,"end":266.108,"text":"國安在這個事件上面基於國安是能不能邀請那個要求那個自由時報把這個消息來提供出來我不知道就國安的角度來講是當然這個問題對調查局來講的話是一個很重大的一個一個國安問題那所以在媒體披露的第一時間我們就立案來調查"},{"start":267.449,"end":268.95,"text":"所以自由時報那個資深媒體有掌握了?"},{"start":287.36,"end":309.907,"text":"這個我現在沒有辦法在這邊跟您報告說有或沒有因為審查不公開的關係因為我們想要瞭解說這會不會破案的一天因為這件事情大家那麼關注會不會就這樣不了了之我們當然很希望就是說這些資訊全部進來了以後我們跟檢察官研究有一個很明確的一個調查的方向然後逐步來去建構一個事實但是這個結論我們沒有辦法在今天說是或不是"},{"start":314.468,"end":314.488,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":344.605,"end":347.531,"text":"接下來請王定宇召委上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154564","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154564","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a4101d3292f94cc1ace876c6524d02f36123a2add11c74db067be5a84947bdd715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:07:23 - 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局長好 局長我想今天我們這個專案報告也是大家國人非常關心中共對台滲透作為那其中就是有講到是說平面媒體之前就先報導是說有新華社駐台記者丁少的一事那我想請教一下到底現在因為連陸委會主委都說找不到爆料者"},{"start":34.702,"end":58.992,"text":"那國安局又講是說情資調查已經在立案偵辦了對所以現在是立案偵辦對,我們有這樣的資訊移交給調查局調查局已經立案偵辦好,什麼時候有的資訊?另外因為什麼時候掌握的資訊?另外因為也有媒體人提告這位記者所以檢方也開始立案偵辦對,那什麼時候掌握的資訊?資訊的部分我們一開始有的資訊局長,什麼時候掌握的資訊?因為已經在偵辦過程當中"},{"start":61.174,"end":73.333,"text":"什麼時候掌握資訊也不能講對我們不建議在這個地方來討論所以第一不能講什麼時候掌握資訊那本席只想問因為個案的部分我不牽涉但是爆料者到底有沒有找到"},{"start":74.315,"end":96.022,"text":"有沒有爆料者?對,爆料者這跟國安局這部分是沒有關係的,國安局部分有我們的情資來源,那我們既然有這樣的情資,就必須要移送到相關的單位來進行調查。所以你們有情資,但是這個情資不是從爆料者來,所以跟平面媒體是不同的?兩件事,這是兩件事情。是,所以說平面媒體報導的,跟你們掌握情資是不同的?而不一樣的。那什麼時候掌握情資?不能講。"},{"start":96.562,"end":123.998,"text":"對我們之前就有掌握到比平面媒體報導之前還是之後應該是稍早一點稍早一點對所以你們掌握了情資但是你們之前不講那你們做了什麼積極的作為除了說這調查以外如果說這樣的話那本席就不禁懷疑我們的一個安全的部分國安局自己說先掌握了情資但現在講是說他是這個調查當中不能公開但是又沒有提醒我們全國的民眾"},{"start":124.998,"end":141.385,"text":"直到平面媒體爆料之後原來才知道說我們的政論節目居然還會被人家盯哨那國安局之前比一個平面媒體還不如跟委員說明一下因為國安局並沒有司法調查權第一個我們不是業管機關也沒有行政調查權本身現在問的是說那你們什麼時候掌握情資並且你們做了什麼積極的作為還是就放任"},{"start":148.148,"end":149.008,"text":"請教現在這一個所謂新華社的駐台記者"},{"start":172.199,"end":194.729,"text":"那他現在人在哪邊他已經離境了離境了如果是報導的這一位的話他已經離境了那這一位到底跟我們國安局這邊掌握的是不是同一位我不清楚國安局掌握的是什麼好那請教一下你們現在他的記者證是文化部這邊發的嗎是他什麼時候發什麼時候入台的他是我看一下"},{"start":197.584,"end":211.797,"text":"五月二十三號 入台二月二十三號因為他三個月離境所以說他照理講他應該是五月二十三離境三二三、四二三、五二三嗎對,三個月所以說他是什麼時候離境的五二三他就是五二三當天嗎"},{"start":214.246,"end":236.258,"text":"我們目前的資訊是這樣是5月23號離境他就523當天離境所以說他就在他三個月的這個記者證有效期滿的時候來離境所以我們這邊也沒有再去跟他調查說他到底有沒有過去這些行為有沒有辦法調查因為之前在教育文化委員會的時候我們請教文化部部長他也講是說他要先做這個所謂的行政調查"},{"start":238.405,"end":247.602,"text":"跟委員說明在離境之前我們並沒有掌握這個訊息所以在離境之前我們並沒有詢問他本人不過在這一件事情經過媒體披露之後"},{"start":251.007,"end":276.06,"text":"他有沒有從事我們文化部發給他記者證以外的事情我們經過媒體披露之後我們有請兩個單位來做詢問哪兩個單位第一個是邀請單位因為媒體進來都會有一位邀請單位也是另外一個媒體那另外就是新華社本社還有在台的駐台記者因為這位記者雖然離開了但是還有其他的記者來那在目前為止的詢問當中這兩位大概都是否認的狀況都是否認是因為"},{"start":278.781,"end":297.587,"text":"上個禮拜本席在教育文化委員會詢問的時候然後有講到是說這個禮拜要公佈嘛對不對所以你們是今天就講了還是說你們會有更詳細的這個調查報告應該是這樣我們因為在做行政調查所以呢我們會跟委會把所有行政調查結果總和以來以後一起對外一起對外什麼時候會對外"},{"start":298.787,"end":315.842,"text":"目前還沒有清楚的日程,不過我們的報告已經在處理當中。所以你們已經報告出來了嘛,對不對?你剛剛已經講了,是否認。但是本席現在要說,這一件事情國人那麼的關心,但是我們的行政機關的這個動作,會不會也太慢?最後我再請教一下國安局局長。來,我們請國安局局長。"},{"start":320.868,"end":336.985,"text":"局長現在國安人士說盤點五個樣態來示警說可能透過參香、拜拜、聯合祭拜、假學術之名的方式來做這樣子的一個收集個資或者是說監控所以說我們腹中會有這個違法偵訊的風險是這樣嗎?"},{"start":340.301,"end":360.586,"text":"對,就假如兩岸的正常合法交流我們都尊重那要特別注意的是所以現在台灣進兩岸觀光那下一步是不是要宗教交流、學術交流、文化交流、地方交流也要進行政府目前沒有做這樣的宣示但是你們現在講是說這一些學術交流、宗教交流也都有可能被滲透"},{"start":361.306,"end":361.566,"text":"沒有錯啊"},{"start":376.557,"end":395.49,"text":"當然國人都知道是說這些交流學術交流、宗教交流、文化交流這都是屬於正常的範圍之內啊所以說也才會做這樣的申請啊但是我們國安現在的一個市井就是說這一些交流也都可能被滲透啊所以你們到底講等於沒講嗎?你們講等於沒講等於是你們到底你們界線在哪邊?"},{"start":396.511,"end":412.157,"text":"你們的樣態在哪邊你今天的示警是講是說都要小心但是講得也沒講因為除非你跟我們講說未來宗教交流、學術交流、文化交流也不能做否則的話你現在到底是要希望兩岸能夠有多一點交流還是說不要交流"},{"start":412.902,"end":413.963,"text":"淡水河口本席選區快艇闖入河口快一個月了"},{"start":438.275,"end":458.809,"text":"請教我們現在查明的狀況怎麼樣?有沒有懲處?對,因為這部分應該是事檢正在偵辦當中,我們尊重那個檢方的辦案。那我們有沒有相關行政機關的懲處?懲處我記得在第一時間海巡署就有對外進行一些懲處。所以國安單位這邊掌握就是海巡署懲處就夠了嗎?對對,主要是海巡署針對整個過程當中有失職的部分來做檢討跟懲處。"},{"start":460.35,"end":460.871,"text":"接下來請葉元之委員上台諮詢"}]}},{"id":"154563","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154563","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a22338a8f5aae1f74ce876c6524d02f36123a2add11c74db0a50e264968218f985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:50:10 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10:59:47","影片長度":"00:09:37","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T10:50:10+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T10:59:47+08:00","duration":577,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":577,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時50分）謝謝主席。請國安局長跟陸委會副主委。"],["主席：請蔡局長、陸委會梁副主委。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。張委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：先請教梁副主委，你剛才說兩國論不夠精確，你們主委說是兩岸嘛！精準一點，是兩國還是兩岸？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們陸委會是依據臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例所成立的，所以嚴格來講，就必須要講臺灣地區與大陸地區的關係，但是因為我們習慣上……"],["張委員啓楷：所以是兩岸，你說兩岸人民關係條例，所以是兩岸嘛？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：習慣上都是講兩岸。"],["張委員啓楷：所以收回你本來講的兩國嗎？精準一點、再精準一點，我們現在是兩岸關係，是不是？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：當然就是兩岸關係。"],["張委員啓楷：所以有收回你本來講的兩國？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我本來講的事情，那個不是我講的，那個是廣播節目主持人詮釋我的話……"],["張委員啓楷：清楚一點，這個很關鍵，所以兩國不是你說的？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：現在是主持人在詮釋我的話。"],["張委員啓楷：非常明確的、精準的，現在是兩岸關係？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：本來就是兩岸關係。"],["張委員啓楷：這是很精準的，已經定調了喔？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，本來就是兩岸關係。"],["張委員啓楷：OK！請局長。剛剛副主委那個東西的講話就精準了，我們要問精準的事情，自由時報說中國媒體盯場我們的政論節目，你現在查到什麼程度？有一個很重要的發展，陸委會主委改口了，陸委會主委已經改口了，他說沒有確有其事，對不對？所以現在有有三種可能，確有其事可能還在；第二種就是可能自由時報造謠或者有某些人造謠，可能有一個空間，現在比較……你調查到目前，到底是確有其事還是沒有？是造謠？"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局沒有調查權，我們有相關的情資，有針對相關的情資，我們移送到調查局偵辦。"],["張委員啓楷：所以目前你是有情資，你沒辦法判斷是確有其事還是造謠？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們沒有調查權……"],["張委員啓楷：到目前沒有辦法確定，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：交給調查局調查。"],["張委員啓楷：OK！好，你這個情資一定是有來源，來源是哪裡？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，依照國家的情報工作法，我們不會透露我們的來源。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啊，你是不是應該跟民眾說來源是哪裡？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這是法律規定。"],["張委員啓楷：你完全沒有一個來源……"],["蔡局長明彥：這是法律規定……"],["張委員啓楷：局長、局長，這個事情非常嚴重。"],["蔡局長明彥：我講清楚……"],["張委員啓楷：發生事情到目前為止，已經兩個禮拜了，國安單位沒有清楚出來跟人民講，到底這個事情嚴重性到什麼地方，目前有兩個很嚴重的，人民可能人心惶惶啊！我做電視節目16年，發現有中國媒體給你腳本還盯場，這是多重要的事情。第二、被你們影射的東森現在很倒楣，東森電視臺關鍵時刻跟劉寶傑，不是很倒楣嗎？你能不能比較明確地說明你的源頭、你的來源是什麼人？剛才沈伯洋有講，你要查從源頭先查，你沒有一個源頭，連源頭都沒有，你還能夠查？"],["蔡局長明彥：我來說明一下……"],["張委員啓楷：造成人民人心惶惶，國安是不是有問題？第二個，我們的媒體已經被中國媒體控制了嗎？這兩點都很重要。"],["蔡局長明彥：假如有這樣的樣態的話，當然是一個重大的國安事件，代表臺灣自由的媒體會遭到中共一個相關的制約，有這樣問題的話，我們一定會嚴加來查察，所以我們在第一時間有相關的資訊之後就移送到調查局來偵辦，因為國安局並沒有相關的行政調查權或司法調查權，所以由調查局偵辦。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，所有的事情就是你剛才說的那個源頭，你不能……"],["蔡局長明彥：第三個，我們沒有影射任何的媒體，我們沒有影射任何的媒體。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，所以到目前為止沒有說是東森？沒有說是關鍵時刻？"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局的系統沒有做這樣的一個評論，從來沒有，到現在為止都是。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，你現在不要「看一个影，生一个囝」。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：你的源頭在哪裡？你最少也要有一個源頭，你你目前只看到一個影子而已，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：國家情報單位不會去洩漏我們的情訊來源，這是法律規定，這是情報工作法第八條的規定。"],["張委員啓楷：好，那我講……"],["蔡局長明彥：所以我們已經移送到檢調單位來偵辦。"],["張委員啓楷：至少一般民眾都知道一開始是哪個報紙登了吧？自由總是要查吧？那個記者你也要查，資深媒體也要查，是不是？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分就由主管機關進行行政調查，以及相關的檢調單位來釐清。"],["張委員啓楷：差不多要多久會給我們一個比較明確的……"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有辦法替檢調單位來回答這個問題。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，我提醒兩個剛剛一直在提醒的，國安事件，你說得這麼明確……"],["蔡局長明彥：有的話，確實是嚴重的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：人民的感覺是怎樣？你要顧及到人民的感覺。第二個，媒體的自由是不是受到侵犯？你看東森倒楣成這樣，好不好？","我請梁副主委，我們來講專業一點、講精準一點的，你以前來上我的節目，我主持節目時，你至少來五十次以上。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我曾經給過你腳本嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不曾。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，你有聽到嗎？所有臺灣的政論節目怎麼會有腳本？你把這個當情資去辦？"],["蔡局長明彥：有這樣的情資當然要辦，沒有辦是國安局失職。"],["張委員啓楷：你的情資可能違反人民的常識。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，進入調查之後由檢調機關來還原，我們沒有報的話是我們失職，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，我剛剛說你「看一个影，生一个囝」，我現在跟你說的就是政論節目，臺灣的政論節目是非常自由的，沒有腳本這個事啦，你旁邊的副主委跟你說過了，他長久……他以前也是常常上節目。"],["蔡局長明彥：所以假如有的話，我剛剛已經講了，假如有的話非常嚴重，既然有這樣的情資，我們就必須移送司法調查。"],["張委員啓楷：你現在聽到的是有嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員……"],["張委員啓楷：文傑，等一下、等一下，局長，你等一下，局長，你講這個話要很負責喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：負責，有相關的情資移送調查、有相關的情資。"],["張委員啓楷：你的情資是包括我們的政論節目有腳本，然後有中國大陸媒體來盯場？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有相關情資。"],["張委員啓楷：自由時報這一篇嗎？除了這篇還有甚麼？臺灣有什麼人講這麼沒有常識的話，違反做政論節目的常識？"],["蔡局長明彥：對啊！所以才要調查啊！"],["張委員啓楷：才要調查？所以不管媒體寫甚麼東西……"],["蔡局長明彥：這確實是有異常的狀況，甚至有違法的可能，我既然沒有調查權，我們就移送調查、釐清狀況。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，不管有合理、沒有合理，有沒有違反常識，只要寫出來，國安局都去調查？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們就請……"],["張委員啓楷：國安局很重要，負責國家安全。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["張委員啓楷：不合理的東西……"],["蔡局長明彥：啟動調查才知道有沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：你啟動調查……"],["蔡局長明彥：調查才有辦法釐清……"],["張委員啓楷：這樣不是只有自由時報而已，臺灣的媒體很多，我跟你說！"],["蔡局長明彥：不要擴大影射，讓檢調單位去進行調查，不要胡亂影射，會造成媒體的恐慌。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，我們心平氣和來討論一下吧！"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你這段時間，這兩個禮拜以來，除了自由時報寫的那個源頭之外，臺灣已經有多少媒體跟你講這個違反政論節目製作原則？我們臺灣是一個民主法治的社會，我們媒體是很受尊重的，我剛剛講為什麼沒有給腳本，我們臺灣的媒體人、名嘴、政治評論員是非常受到尊重的，你叫他拿東西去讀，我剛才為什麼問梁文傑，文傑來我的節目，我如果叫他唸一個東西，這不侵犯我們臺灣的民主自由和法制嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：是這樣沒有錯。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我說連這個常識你們都沒有，國安局就把他送去了，你可以送，那你先去查，我就跟你講不會有腳本、不會有盯場這個事情，因為這個對我們臺灣的媒體是一個非常大的侮辱，你現在講的事情對臺灣媒體是非常大的侮辱。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，所以要讓檢調查清楚、讓檢調查清楚，我們尊重司法檢調調查的過程跟結果，其他的評論，我覺得還是應該留待社會公評。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，你可以把自由時報當情資去查，我現在是提醒你，這兩個禮拜以來所有的媒體除了自由時報以外，你去看中時、聯合或者網路媒體、TVBS，每個電視臺最少七、八十間，七、八十間說沒有這個事情，有一家說有，七、八十家都沒有，又牽扯到你的國家安全，又牽扯到我們的新聞自由。"],["蔡局長明彥：是啊！"],["張委員啓楷：那你要去查之前，你是不是要先看這七、八十間是怎麼講的？你為什麼一直去找自由時報？我剛才講過，你去問一下，那個記者……"],["蔡局長明彥：自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係，自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係，他們的報導，我們沒有任何的……"],["張委員啓楷：局長，你講這麼久，你的意思有兩種，你的意思有兩種喔，第一種，你有另外情資嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：是啊，我們本來就有另外情資，我們本來就有另外情資。"],["張委員啓楷：不是自由時報？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一開始就講得很清楚……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下、等一下，這是很重要的事情。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一開始就講清楚，我們上禮拜的專報就講清楚了，我們一開始就有得到相關的情資，所以把情資送給檢調單位來立案偵辦，就是這麼清楚。自由時報的報導歸自由時報的報導，兩個沒有關係，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：所以局長講的很……"],["蔡局長明彥：上禮拜就講過、上禮拜就講過了、上禮拜就講過了。"],["張委員啓楷：他的情資來源不是只有自由時報，是有其他的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，上禮拜就講過了。"],["張委員啓楷：你這個指控就更……"],["蔡局長明彥：這不是指控，這就是描述整個過程跟經過，跟委員做說明，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：既然這麼嚴重，又牽扯到國家安全……"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，我們要偵辦、我們要偵辦！對，我們要移送偵辦，不然我們失職……"],["張委員啓楷：要儘快、要儘快給我們，但我知道，你們有步驟在做，可是我剛才強調的，人民已經因為這樣子有不安了，好不好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習慣上都是講兩岸所以你說回你本來講的兩國嗎 精準一點 比較精準"},{"start":53.26,"end":78.691,"text":"是兩岸關係?我們下次兩岸關係是不是?當然就是兩岸關係所以有收回你本來講的兩國我本來講的事情那個不是我講的那個是廣播節目主持人在詮釋我的話所以兩國不是你說的嗎?是主持人在詮釋今天非常明確的、清準的現在是兩岸關係對,本來就是兩岸關係這是很清準的,今天定調了喔對,本來就是兩岸關係OK,好來,請決定"},{"start":83.513,"end":101.805,"text":"我們剛剛副主委那個東西講話就精準了我們要問精準的事情這個自由時報說中國媒體盯上我們這個政論節目你現在查到什麼程度有一個特定的發展陸委會主委改口了"},{"start":103.188,"end":103.668,"text":"國安局沒有調查權"},{"start":121.599,"end":135.594,"text":"那我們有相關的情資那有針對相關的情資我們移送到調查局來懲罰所以目前你是有情資你沒辦法判斷是確有歧視還是造謠對,我們沒有調查到目前沒辦法,比較低嘛對不對交給調查局調查OK,好那你這個情資一定是有來源嘛"},{"start":136.983,"end":152.022,"text":"對你的來源是怎樣?依照國家的情報工作法,我們不會透露我們的來源。你完全沒有一個來源呢?沒有,這是法律規定。這事情非常嚴重,發生事情到目前為止已經兩個禮拜了。"},{"start":153.735,"end":174.114,"text":"國安單位沒有清楚出來跟人民講到底這個事情嚴重性到什麼地方目前我們兩個很嚴重的嘛人民可能人心惶惶啊欸我做電視節目做16年欸發言有中國媒體給你腳本還頂長這兩重的事情電視的東森被你們影射的東森現在甩掉"},{"start":175.368,"end":186.13,"text":"東森電視台、關鍵時刻與劉寶傑你能不能比較明確你的源頭、你的來源是什麼?剛才沈博洋有說你要查你從源頭先查你沒有一個源頭,你的源頭就沒有"},{"start":187.918,"end":215.979,"text":"你還能夠查,造成人民人心惶惶,國安是不是有問題?第二個,我們的媒體是被,已經被中國媒體控制了嗎?這兩點都出錯了耶!假如有這樣的樣態的話,當然是一個重大的國安事件,代表台灣的自由的媒體會遭到中共的一個相關的一個制約,那有這樣的問題的話,我們一定會嚴加來查查,所以我們在有第一時間有相關的資訊之後,我們就移送到調查局來偵辦,因為國安局並沒有相關的行政調查權或司法調查權,"},{"start":217.58,"end":233.809,"text":"所謂的事情就是你剛才說的那個源頭那第三個我們沒有影射任何的媒體我們沒有影射任何的媒體沒有,所以到目前為止沒有說是東森沒有說是關鍵組合國安局的系統沒有做這樣的一個評論從來沒有,到現在為止都是肯定,你現在有沒有看了一個影射的鏡子"},{"start":234.77,"end":237.972,"text":"國家情報單位不會去泄露我們的情緒來源這是法律規定這是情報工作法第8條的規定至少一般民眾都知道一開始是哪個報紙登了"},{"start":253.464,"end":259.867,"text":"主管機關進行行政調查以及相關的檢調單位來釐清我沒有辦法替檢調單位來回答這個問題國安事件你說得這麼明確有的話確實是一個很重的問題第二個媒體的自由是不是受到侵犯你看東森水到這樣好不好"},{"start":283.43,"end":290.992,"text":"我請梁副主委,我們來講講正經一點,你剛才講講精準嘛,你以前講我的節目我之前節目時你現在也來50個議席,我曾經給過你腳本嗎?不然你聽到沒有?所有台灣的精準節目,怎麼會有腳本?你把這個當情資去辦?"},{"start":307.856,"end":317.498,"text":"有這樣的情誌當然要辦,沒有辦是國安局失職你的情誌可能違反人民的常識沒有,進入調查,進入調查之後有檢調機關來還原沒有報的話是我失職,謝謝我現在跟你講的政論節目,台灣的政論節目是非常自由的沒有腳本這個事啦"},{"start":331.684,"end":354.756,"text":"你旁邊的副主委告訴你,他長久,他以前也是想要你上節目啊所以假如有的話,我剛剛已經講了,假如有的話非常嚴重,既然有這樣的情資,我們就必須要移送司法調查所以你現在聽到的是有的嗎?等一下等一下等一下,文傑等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下"},{"start":355.765,"end":363.562,"text":"有腳本：然後有中國大陸的媒體來登場對 有相關情誌的主主席不這篇第二這篇又得台灣現在有什麼人講這麼沒有常識的話違反做勝任節目的常識"},{"start":367.142,"end":384.2,"text":"對阿,所以才要調查阿,這是違議場的狀況,這確實是違議場的狀況,甚至有違法的可能我既然沒有調查權,我們就移送調查,釐清狀況所以不管有合理沒合理,有沒有違反常識,只要下來,國安局都去調查對,我們就請國安局很重要欸,國家安全欸,不合理的東西"},{"start":388.041,"end":389.182,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":409.433,"end":430.119,"text":"臺灣已經有多少媒體跟你講這個違反政論節目製作的原則臺灣是一個民主有發展的社會我們媒體是很受尊重的我剛剛講為什麼沒有給腳本我們臺灣的媒體人、名嘴、政治評論員是非常受到尊重的你給他簽名去打我剛才是問梁文傑文傑來我的節目我叫他練一個東西"},{"start":436.218,"end":454.889,"text":"這不侵犯我們台灣的民主自由和法治嗎?世界沒有錯所以我說連這個常識你們都沒有關起就把它送去了你可以送那你先去查我剛才就跟你講不會有腳本不會有丁賞這個事情因為這個對我們台灣的媒體是一個非常大的侮辱你想一下你現在講的事情是對台灣媒體非常大的侮辱讓檢調查清楚"},{"start":457.519,"end":483.52,"text":"我們尊重司法檢調調查的過程跟結果其他的評論我覺得還是應該留給社會公平你可以把自由時報當情誌去查我現在是提醒你這兩天以來所有的媒體在自由時報以外你看中時聯合或者網路媒體TVBS每個電視台像現在也七八十間嘛七八十間說沒有這個事情有一家說有七八十家都沒有"},{"start":484.574,"end":498.464,"text":"又牽扯到你國家安全又牽扯到我們新聞自由那你要去查之前你是不是要看這七八十件事怎麼說的你是怎麼一直去找自由時報啊想說你要找自由時報我剛才說過自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係他們的報導我們沒有任何的你講這麼久你到底你意思有兩種喔第一種你有另外的情緒嗎"},{"start":508.991,"end":525.938,"text":"是啊,我們本來就是有另外的情資啊,我們本來就有另外的情資,我們一開始就講清楚,一開始就講清楚,我在上禮拜中報就講清楚了,我們一開始就有得到相關的情資,所以把情資送給檢調單位來立案偵辦,就是這麼清楚,自由時報的報導歸自由時報的報導,兩個沒有關係,謝謝委員﹚張啓楷上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,是"},{"start":535.121,"end":559.86,"text":"上禮拜就講過了這不是指控這在描述整個過程跟經過跟委員做說明那如果既然這麼嚴重又牽扯到就是當然我們必須要偵辦我們要偵辦對我們要移送偵辦那這儘快也要儘快給我們但我知道你們有步驟在做啦可是我剛剛一定要強調啦人民已經因為這樣子有不安了好不好所以第一個要快第二個同時你要給人民真相啊你剛剛在那邊拖我剛才說的用兩星期喔"},{"start":561.802,"end":562.042,"text":"現在休息5分鐘"}]}},{"id":"154562","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154562","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a5d4852edafa849e8ce876c6524d02f36cf84bbc3b5148b9390620376bfb8ca735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:38:36 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10:49:57","影片長度":"00:11:21","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T10:38:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T10:49:57+08:00","duration":681,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":546,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時38分）主席好，請調查局局長。"],["主席：請陳局長。"],["陳局長白立：主席好、委員好。"],["林委員憶君：局長好。近年來中共對臺灣的認知作戰的樣態、手段及密度都大幅提升，藉引導性的虛假訊息企圖影響臺灣人對國安情勢的認知，然後甚至企圖破壞臺灣內部的團結，所以這也是調查局今年成立認知作戰研究中心的原因嗎？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["林委員憶君：說到認知作戰的話，本席有一個實際案例，就是最近花蓮群組上面流竄的假消息影片。近期花蓮很多LINE群組突然就收到一支影片，這個影片描述了中共與我國軍機如何在花蓮東部附近的空域上面對峙，最後國軍戰機遭到包圍後又驅趕。可是這個影片錯誤百出，顯示是中共認知作戰的虛假消息，但因為當天也正好有中共軍機來騷擾，所以我們地方服務處的同仁就很緊張，在問是不是真的有這一回事？還好我們就馬上請國會的辦公室同仁快點協助查證，後面發現這支影片其實錯誤百出，包括發生的時間不對、發生的地點有問題，還有戰機編隊飛行的架數也不對，就連配音，大陸口音的影片也對不起來。因此我們立即就判斷這部影片應該是虛假的訊息，可能是認知作戰的手法，所以馬上動用所有的方法去澄清，呼籲花蓮鄉親不要再轉傳這個影片。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["林委員憶君：但是這樣真的讓我們覺得蠻無助的，因為這種假訊息出來的時候，民眾沒有辦法判斷影片的真偽，政府機關在澄清訊息上又常常有漏網之魚，所以我們常常只能用人工回傳訊息快點幫忙澄清。本席想請教局長，為應對這種虛假的訊息，調查局除了前端的學術研究之外，目前還有哪些手段可以讓民眾即時查證訊息呢？"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員，委員剛剛提到的這一則，其實這一則是一個很舊的假訊息，在今年又重新再把它拿出來傳散，也謝謝委員的團隊在第一時間就來協助澄清。民眾如果接到這一類的訊息，其實目前有很多類似像事實查核中心、美玉姨等等的，可以第一時間讓我們能夠初步地去瞭解，看看這一則訊息是不是之前已經出現過的假訊息，然後這一則訊息在網路上普遍的回應狀況是怎麼樣，可以讓我們第一時間初步來判斷這個訊息的真偽。在調查局的部分，其實認知戰研究中心目前也是在剛開始成立的初期，我們慢慢地儘量希望能夠點點滴滴地去堆積我們的實戰經驗，目前除了對於認知訊息的研究以外，我們也希望在應處的部分能夠縮短時效，能夠在最短時間內確定這個是一個假訊息，然後發布澄清的資訊給民眾。不過這種假訊息，因為中國對臺灣這種認知戰的攻擊作戰其實是一個複合性的作戰，量其實非常、非常的大，尤其在選舉期間，這個非常、非常的大，我們希望能夠建構我們國人基本上要有一個比較強的識讀能力，這個是一個比較根本、有效的方法，謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：但是除了LINE可以即時的查證，因為這個真的會造成大家恐慌，其實都需要等待政府的澄清，萬一政府沒有主動澄清，那民眾不是都傻傻地被這些假訊息欺騙了，甚至大家還會轉傳。本席想要提醒一下局長，剛才說到政府的主動澄清還有一些是，政府通常會去抓一些流量比較高的、比較不實的訊息，但是流量不高的那種密集發送的訊息就會變成漏網之魚，可是如果民眾查核的時間及查核的管道又不多的話，民眾就會很難查核這個的真偽，是真的呢？還是假的呢？這樣就會造成民眾的恐慌還有誤判，像剛才我說的那個，那個在我們花蓮群組上瘋傳不實的影片，其實6月28日就開始傳了，但是事實上查核中心卻在3天之後、7月1日才開始澄清這個訊息，這個時候我們花蓮人都已經快嚇死了。","所以對於反制虛假訊息的認知作戰，我想是不是因為有很多民眾或查證手段比較有限，以LINE的訊息查證來說，其實目前只能用訊息、文字連結跟文字型的梗圖等幾個方式，影片就沒有辦法，請問調查局是不是可以回去研議看看，要如何讓民眾可以透過上傳的影片來查證這種真偽？而且有很多群組上流傳的虛假影片，大部分都是影片的形式，像這樣的話，看看是不是可以建立更多LINE訊息澄清的查核管道，讓民眾可以上傳連結或影片，快點協助他們判斷訊息的真偽？"],["陳局長白立：是，謝謝委員的指教，這個部分確實我們還有很大的努力、成長空間，我們會依照委員的指教朝這個方向去努力，謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝局長。","有請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：副主委好。賴清德總統在520就職演說上談到了中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬，此外，賴總統也是在7月1日中研院的晚宴中第五度提到這樣的說法，但同一天，副主委在接受廣播節目訪問的時候卻說，除了憲法，在其他法律制度，我們一切做法都把對方當國家，要叫「兩岸」或叫「中華民國和中華民國共和國」都好，實質就是兩個國家。後來主持人也在總結的時候問到，憲法兩岸、實質兩國，那時候你也是同意的。我想要請教副主委，你覺得你自己的說法有沒有超譯了賴總統的說法呢？畢竟兩岸關係的用語是非常小心謹慎的，而你自己又是代表政府的政務官，你身為陸委會的副主委，本席希望你在國會殿堂上可能要說清楚，不要讓臺灣民眾還是北京當局有誤會，還有你認為兩岸互不隸屬與兩國互不隸屬有沒有什麼不同呢？還有因為陸委會是按照兩岸人民關係條例所設置的，不過既然你覺得兩岸實質是兩國，請問是不是表示，如果你自己不是陸委會首長官員的前提下，你個人是贊成將陸委會納入外交部呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，我那天是在上廣播節目，等於很多算是用聊天的方式，但是媒體會去脈絡化的把我的一句話給擷取出來，所以我覺得這個有點不是很精確。我必須說，那天是談到譬如說臺灣跟大陸的關係，譬如說談到我們的健保資格的問題，我們的大法官相關的解釋也有很明確說，健保只有有中華民國國民身分的人才能夠享有，我們自己相關的健保法也是這樣的規定，所以大陸人民是不能夠……"],["林委員憶君：所以你覺得那天有沒有說錯，還是覺得是新聞把你擷取錯誤呢？"],["陳局長白立：我覺得是有點去脈絡化的去擷取我的說法。"],["林委員憶君：好。接下來再請問你一個問題，前天我們大進滿88號漁船被中國海警船帶走，海巡署在隔天已經有說明了，這艘漁船是在大陸公告的5到8月海洋伏季休漁期跑到大陸領海內去越界捕撈，請問副主委，現在大陸那邊交涉是由陸委會跟漁業署負責，是嗎？"],["陳局長白立：兩個單位都有。"],["林委員憶君：好，請問什麼時候可以放人、放船啊？他們家人都非常心急，大家都在等待。"],["陳局長白立：應該這樣講，因為他這個處罰的範圍其實是有點大，根據他們自己的法律，處罰的範圍是有點大，他最嚴可以處罰到三年以下有期徒刑，但是最輕可以到罰款……"],["林委員憶君：所以我現在就問，什麼時候可以放人？你們現在溝通的情況是怎麼樣？"],["陳局長白立：應該是說他們現在還沒決定。"],["林委員憶君：所以陸委會判斷這次大進滿88號漁船被帶走，只是對於我們漁民簡單的漁船越界捕撈的事件，還是有一些政治上面的意圖呢？"],["陳局長白立：我覺得這個事情我會比較把它當成一個個案來看待，其實他也不是因為越界的關係，因為從對岸的角度來講，臺灣的漁民沒有越界的問題，但是臺灣的漁民會有違反休漁季捕撈的問題，也就是說，在休漁季的時候，大陸的漁民都不能夠在那一片海域捕魚，所以他們也不會允許臺灣的漁民在那一片海域捕魚，所以問題在這裡。"],["林委員憶君：好，我還是希望副主委，你現在身為行政官員，已經不是民意代表了，你是專責海峽兩岸事務的主管機關，往後你還是要稍微謹言慎行，不要引起大家不必要的誤會，不然國人就會開始緊張起來，也很害怕兩岸是不是會戰爭，是不是會打起來？還有，希望陸委會能夠發揮政治上面最大的智慧，在不升高兩岸情勢下、和平對話的情況下，儘快把我們的漁民帶回來。因為從2月大陸漁船翻船到現在大進滿88號的事件，其實這個都反映兩岸既有的事務，但是明明就是反映出來溝通管道功能都不彰啊！兩岸隔著臺灣海峽共享漁業的資源是沒有辦法避免的事實，所以希望還是要認真努力一點，好不好？"],["陳局長白立：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員。鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請張啓楷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.6759687500000005,"end":6.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.77659375,"end":9.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.58846875,"end":24.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.34346875,"end":48.799718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.609718750000006,"end":57.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.861593750000004,"end":73.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.29784375,"end":150.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.97534375000001,"end":86.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.51159375,"end":111.77721875},{"speaker":"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請調查局局長請陳局長主席好 委員好"},{"start":25.63,"end":48.022,"text":"局長好近年來中共對台灣的認知作戰的樣態還有手段和密度都大幅的提升企圖藉引導性的虛假的訊息企圖影響台灣人對國安的情勢的認知甚至企圖會迫害台灣內部的團結所以這也是調查局今年成立認知作戰研究中心的原因嗎是"},{"start":49.683,"end":72.969,"text":"那說到認知作戰的話本席就是有一個實際最近我們花蓮群組上面流傳的假消息的影片的案例近期我們花蓮很多LINE的群組上面突然就收到了一支影片這個影片描述了中共與我國的軍機如何在我們花蓮東部的附近的空域上面對峙最後國軍戰機遭到包圍後又驅趕"},{"start":74.369,"end":78.931,"text":"可是這個影片錯誤擺出顯示是中共認知作戰的虛假消息但是因為當天也正好有中共的軍機來騷擾所以我們地方服務處的同仁馬上就很緊張在問這是不是真的有這一回事呢還好我們就馬上請國會的辦公室同仁快點協助的查證後面發現這支影片其實是錯誤擺出包括發生的時間不對還有發生的地點有問題還有戰機編隊飛行的架數也不對"},{"start":104.179,"end":112.606,"text":"就連配音大陸的口音的影片也對不起來因此我們立即就判斷這影片應該是虛假的訊息可能是認知作戰的手法所以馬上動用所有的方法去澄清呼籲花蓮的鄉親不要再轉傳這個影片但是這樣真的讓我們覺得是蠻無助的"},{"start":123.655,"end":148.415,"text":"因為這種假訊息出來的時候民眾沒有辦法去判斷這個影片的真偽然後政府機關在澄清訊息上又常常漏網之魚所以我們常常只能用人工回傳訊息快點幫忙澄清那本席想要請教一下局長為了應對這種虛假的訊息調查局除了前端的學術的研究之外目前還有哪些手段可以讓民眾及時查證訊息的呢"},{"start":151.456,"end":172.144,"text":"是,謝謝委員那個委員剛提到的這一則其實這一則是一個很舊的假訊息那在今年又重新再把它拿出來去傳散那也謝謝委員在第一時間您的團隊就來協助來澄清那民眾如果接到這一類的訊息其實我們其實目前有很多的這個"},{"start":174.105,"end":199.358,"text":"類似像事實查核中心、美育儀等等的這些可以第一時間讓我們能夠初步的去了解看看這一則訊息是不是之前已經出現過的一個假的訊息然後這一則訊息在網路上普遍的回應的狀況是怎麼樣可以讓我們第一時間初步來判斷這個訊息的真偽那在調查局的部分我們其實認知戰研究中心目前也是在"},{"start":201.421,"end":206.335,"text":"剛開始成立的一個初期我們慢慢的盡量希望能夠"},{"start":207.952,"end":230.681,"text":"點點滴滴的去堆積我們的實戰的經驗那目前除了我們對於認知訊息的研究以外我們也希望能夠在應處的部分能夠縮短那個時效能夠在最短時間內能夠確定這個是一個假的訊息然後發佈澄清的資訊給民眾那不過這種假訊息因為中國對台灣的這種認知戰"},{"start":232.762,"end":253.934,"text":"的攻擊作戰,其實是一個複合性的作戰,量其實非常非常的大,尤其在選舉的期間,這個非常非常的大。我們其實希望能夠建構我們的國人基本上要有一個比較強的一個嗜毒的能力,這個是一個比較根本的一個有效"},{"start":254.594,"end":282.451,"text":"但是我除了看LINE可以即時的查證因為這個證人會造成大家恐慌其實都需要政府等待政府的澄清就是說萬一政府沒有主動澄清那民眾不是都傻傻的被這些假訊息欺騙了而且大家甚至還會轉傳然後北市想要提醒一下局長剛才說的政府的主動澄清還有一些就是政府通常會去抓一些流量比較高的比較不實的訊息但是流量不高的那種密集發送的訊息就會變成了一個漏網之魚"},{"start":284.352,"end":288.113,"text":"可是如果民眾查核的時間查核的管道又不多的話民眾就會很難查核這個是真偽是真的還是假的呢這樣的話就會造成民眾的恐慌還有誤判像剛才我說的那個所以那個在我們花蓮群組上瘋傳不實的影片其實6月28就開始傳了但是事實上查核中心去三天之後7月1號才開始澄清這個訊息其實這個時候都已經我們花蓮人都已經快嚇死了"},{"start":311.201,"end":319.303,"text":"所以對於反制虛假的訊息的認知作戰我想說是不是有很多民眾都查證的手段比較有限所以就以LINE的訊息查證來說其實目前只能用訊息還有文字連結跟文字型的梗圖幾個方式影片就沒有辦法那請問調查局是不是可以回去研議看看要如何讓民眾可以透過上傳的影片來查證這種真偽然後而且有很多群組上流傳的虛假的影片大部分都是影片的形式"},{"start":340.268,"end":341.149,"text":"請副主委"},{"start":373.317,"end":388.084,"text":"副主委好賴清德總統在520就職演說上談到了中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬此外賴總統也是在7月1號中研院的晚宴中第五度提到這樣的說法"},{"start":388.624,"end":402.239,"text":"但同一天副主委你在接受廣播節目的時候你說除了憲法在其他法律制度我們一切的做法都是以對方當國家要叫兩岸或是中華民國或中華民國共和國都好實質上是兩個國家後來主持人也在總結的時候問到憲法兩岸實質兩國"},{"start":407.665,"end":413.048,"text":"然後那時候你也是同意的那我想要請教副主委一下你覺得你自己的說法有沒有超抑了賴總統的說法呢還是畢竟兩岸關係的用語是非常小心謹慎的而你自己又代表政府的政務官那你身為陸委會的副主委本席希望你在國會殿堂上可能要說清楚不要讓台灣的民眾還是北京當局有誤會還有你認為兩岸互不隸屬與兩國互不隸屬有沒有什麼不同呢"},{"start":435.72,"end":453.957,"text":"還有因為入委會是按照兩岸人民關係條例所設置的所以不過既然你是覺得兩岸實質是兩國這種話那請問是不是表示說如今你自己自己不是入委會首長官員的前提下你個人是贊成將入委會納入外交部呢?"},{"start":455.743,"end":474.421,"text":"報告委員我那天是在上廣播節目所以就是等於算是很多算是用聊天的方式但是媒體會去脈絡化的把我一句話給擷取出來所以我覺得這個有點不是很精確那我必須說那天是談到說"},{"start":476.443,"end":490.298,"text":"例如說臺灣跟大陸的關係例如說談到我們的健保資格的問題那我們的大法官相關的解釋也有很明確說就是健保只有這個有中華民國"},{"start":491.559,"end":494.843,"text":"所以你覺得那天有沒有說錯還是覺得是大家希望把你擷取錯誤呢我覺得是有點去脈絡化去擷取我的說法這樣子"},{"start":508.868,"end":529.67,"text":"好那我接下來再請問你一個問題就是說前天我們大進滿88號漁船被中國海警船帶走海巡署在隔天已經有說明了這艘漁船是在大陸公告5到8月的時候海洋伏計休漁期跑到大陸臨海內去越界捕撈那請問一下副主委現在大陸那邊交涉由陸委會跟漁業署負責是嗎"},{"start":534.317,"end":538.704,"text":"請問什麼時候可以放人放船?他們家人都是非常的心急,大家都在等待。"},{"start":539.778,"end":561.209,"text":"我應該這樣講就是說因為他這個處罰的範圍其實是有點大根據他們自己的法律處罰的範圍是有點大他最嚴可以處罰到三年以下的有期徒刑但是最輕可以到法狂我現在就問說什麼時候可以放人像你們現在溝通的情況是怎麼樣應該是說他們現在還沒決定"},{"start":564.252,"end":592.946,"text":"所以那你現在判斷這次陸委會判斷這次大進滿88號漁船被帶走是只是對於我們的漁民簡單的漁船越界捕撈的事件還是有一些政治上面的意圖呢我覺得這個事情我會比較把它當成一個個案來看待那其實它也不是因為越界的關係因為在對岸的角度來講台灣的漁民沒有越界的問題"},{"start":594.687,"end":594.947,"text":"所以問題在這裡,這樣子。"},{"start":615.959,"end":633.285,"text":"所以我還是希望副主委你現在身為行政官員已經不是民意代表了希望你專責海峽兩岸事務的主管機關往後你還是要稍微謹言慎行對這種不要引起大家不必要的誤會而且國人就開始緊張起來了也很害怕兩岸是不是會戰爭是不是會打起來"},{"start":635.566,"end":639.748,"text":"還有希望陸委會能夠發揮最大的政治上面的智慧在不升高兩岸情勢下和平的對話的情況下盡早快點把我們的漁民帶回來因為我們從2月開始大陸漁船翻船到現在到大紀滿88號的事件其實這個都在反映兩岸既有的事物啊但是"},{"start":655.055,"end":656.676,"text":"接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請鄭振淺鄭振淺"}]}},{"id":"154561","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154561","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a239f904b54e86d29ce876c6524d02f36cf84bbc3b5148b93de903409df43b7935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:28:34 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10:38:22","影片長度":"00:09:48","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T10:28:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T10:38:22+08:00","duration":588,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":443,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時28分）謝謝主席，有請國安局蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：蔡局長你好。我請教一下，看到最近發生兩件事情，澎湖的漁民、漁船進入大陸海域被扣了，然後基隆的漁船到日本奄美大島附近捕魚也被扣了，請問你，這兩件事情是不是都是我們的漁民越界到他們的領海裡面？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，第一個案例是對岸的案例，大進滿88號，它確實是在對岸的十二浬內作業時……"],["賴委員士葆：就在他的領海？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，確實是。"],["賴委員士葆：那日本呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：日本這案例主要是在我們暫定執法線以東大概1.5浬，不在我們的暫定執法線之內，那這暫定執法線是根據……"],["賴委員士葆：以東算不算他的領海？"],["蔡局長明彥：不是領海，就是不是我們的執法範圍，這是根據2013年臺日漁業協定……"],["賴委員士葆：所以他可以執法？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，它不在2013年臺日漁業協定中我們的管轄範圍，所以造成它是在……"],["賴委員士葆：這個也沒有一條線，有時候漁民就超過一點點，不是臺日關係很好嗎？怎麼日本這麼兇？把他扣了還要處罰一百二十幾萬，然後才放船、放人，這對我們很不好吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，但還是要依照相關的作業規定來處理。"],["賴委員士葆：所以日本的處罰你接受？"],["蔡局長明彥：不是接不接受問題，這是由我們外事單位來跟日方協調之後所採取的……"],["賴委員士葆：所以這樣的結果你們滿意？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重相關單位處理的狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：說半天臺日關係好，好到哪裡去？請問接近大陸領海要罰多少錢？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這要看它的……"],["賴委員士葆：罰多少錢？"],["蔡局長明彥：要看它的樣態才能夠決定到底罰則要多高。"],["賴委員士葆：今天講出一個數字，說要罰22.5萬，有沒有這個數字？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這都是非正式管道在傳播的，還是要看他正式針對這個案例……"],["賴委員士葆：會不會有刑罰？"],["蔡局長明彥：這我們沒有辦法替中國的執法單位來回答。"],["賴委員士葆：但是按照它的國內法，闖進來有沒有刑法的問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有各種裁罰的樣態。"],["賴委員士葆：現在外界看到的是，自蔡英文政府、賴清德政府，這個政府抗中有餘、保臺不足！跟對岸一天到晚撞，撞的結果，我們漁民的權益都受損！這個東西稍微偏一點點，日本喊打喊殺，花了這麼多錢，老百姓看了這樣子就變成……然後我們對日本一句話都不敢吭，看到日本跪下去，看到中國大陸就哇哇哇地很大聲！但是大家看，你有本事就把老共的船趕走啊！也沒有，都是軟腳蝦！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這個……"],["賴委員士葆：你聽我講完，實際上我們的政府面對基層漁民受到委屈，我們的表現是道地的軟腳蝦，然後對大陸像大聲公，要獲取政治利益，對日本就跪下去、「惦惦」，到現在為止。可憐啦！可憐啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：不過這個部分還是要看事發……案子發生的海域狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：事實上就如此，你剛剛已經講了。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，要看海域的狀況，假如是在……"],["賴委員士葆：去大陸就進入人家的領海了啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，假如是在我們自己的執法水域，海巡署一定會全力護漁；但假如是出了我們的執法水域的話，那當然就要透過外事單位……"],["賴委員士葆：出一點點……"],["蔡局長明彥：陸委會進行相關的協商。"],["賴委員士葆：日本那個一點點，難道不用跟他說一下？說臺日關係這麼好，結果都說假的，對不對？原來過去……"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這還是要依照2013年……"],["賴委員士葆：不是這回事啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：依照2013年臺日漁業協議的……"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！你要根據這個……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，作為依……"],["賴委員士葆：日本做的，你完全同意啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：以作為依據。"],["賴委員士葆：胳膊向外彎，怎麼會這個樣子呢？好歹你也罵一下日本人，都不敢罵日本人、都惦惦，罵大陸罵好大聲，結果越罵大陸，漁民越遭殃。請陸委會梁副主委。"],["蔡局長明彥：這個處理過程中沒有謾罵，都還是理性地在處理……"],["賴委員士葆：都是謾罵，怎麼沒有……"],["蔡局長明彥：這要……"],["賴委員士葆：換到大陸就是……你沒有謾罵別人，綠營的人謾罵啊！","不錯，看你現在有笑容，前一陣子都沒有笑容。梁副主委，鄭文燦算不算知中派？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：他對大陸的事情確實蠻瞭解的。"],["賴委員士葆：他算不算海基會裡面的鴿派？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：鴿派、鷹派都是在政府的政策方針之下做事，所以我不覺得有什麼鴿派、鷹派之分。"],["賴委員士葆：胡歌來臺灣，是不是背後他牽線的？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不是。"],["賴委員士葆：是誰？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這個不是。胡歌來臺，這個是他們送函件到陸委會，陸委會這邊核定的。"],["賴委員士葆：所以是你核定的？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：其中之一。"],["賴委員士葆：就是你有簽字，是不是？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該是先到文化部，自文化部過來陸委會。"],["賴委員士葆：所以胡歌能夠來，你有功勞？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我不會說是我的功勞。"],["賴委員士葆：胡歌來臺灣，對兩岸是好事吧！不然你怎麼會簽字！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對正常的交流我們都歡迎。"],["賴委員士葆：現在看起來就鄭文燦，外面的解讀是被賴清德追殺。這個看起來，海基會大概來講的話本來就沒什麼功能，老實講陸委會也沒什麼功能，你們一直強調，這個賴清德講過一遍就可以了，一直講、一直講，新兩國論一直講，說到最後，結果是把人民拿去撞，你知道嗎？撞、撞、撞，兩岸大人吵架，受殃的是人民耶！漁民受殃、我們基層的普羅大眾受殃、旅遊業受殃、老百姓受殃！老百姓、旅遊業都希望生意能夠做得成，有生意可以賺，臺灣人的願望沒有很大，安居樂業平安過日子，賺一點小錢，就這樣子而已啊！你們大人在那裡吵架，吵到商機都沒有了。海基會鄭文燦下來之後，其實外界對兩岸關係更悲觀啦！這個你不要回答了，你下去好了。","我再請教蔡局長，從最近種種看來，弄了半天，他們的飛機愛過來就過來、他們的船愛過來就過來、他們的人愛過來就直接上淡水碼頭。過去至少兩岸有一個默契，兩岸互不承認主權、互不否認治權，我們中華民國的有效治理區域臺、澎、金，馬，大陸是不否定的，現在等於否定了，他們登船到我們的漁船上面去扣人、扣船，很可怕！請問你，這個是不是大陸不承認我們的治權、是不是已經發生了？"],["蔡局長明彥：另外有一個面向要注意的是，中國大陸在區域裡面，不管是軍事或海上的灰色地帶的擴張也越來越積極、越來越強烈。所以不只委員剛剛所提到的臺海地區，東海、南海都有類似的狀況，也包括登檢或毆打菲律賓相關的官士兵，因此這樣的整體趨勢我們也要列入安全環境的評估。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我的問題！我的問題是：它是不是現在已經否認中華民國的有效治理區域？這個事情有沒有否認？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個我沒有辦法替中華人民共和國政府回答。"],["賴委員士葆：它的行為就是否認啊！他這個行為就是否認了啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會來注意這樣的……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，這個行為是不是否認？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會來注意這樣的……"],["賴委員士葆：你要大聲抗議，對不對？說我們不爽，你這樣子，我們有效統治、有效治理臺澎金馬，為什麼隨便就扣船，隨便就上來？要大聲講話啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們上次也呼籲，兩岸在處理類似的事件應該要累積善意……"],["賴委員士葆：另外一個小問題，到底臺灣有沒有第五縱隊？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分我已經說明過，因為第五縱隊不是法律用語。假如中共有對臺滲透違反法律要件的話，我們會積極處理。"],["賴委員士葆：其實第五縱隊就是沒有暴露的間諜，對不對？這叫第五縱隊。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，一般學術上是有這樣的定義沒有錯，而我們在法律上要依法處理……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有這些人嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，只要有違反法律要件的我們就會偵辦，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：有多少人？有幾十萬人嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這是媒體的猜測。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，這是民進黨立委講的，什麼「媒體的猜測」！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這是外界的猜測。"],["賴委員士葆：你都不敢回答。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我們已經有積極在偵辦了，去年到現在辦了8個案……"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個小問題，媒體盯梢這件事情，到底有沒有這回事？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛說明過了，有相關的資訊我們已經移送調查局偵辦，那檢方因為……"],["賴委員士葆：確實有嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有相關的情資已經移送調查局偵辦，在偵辦當中。"],["賴委員士葆：確實有嗎？有這件事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：有得到情資。有得到情資，不過……"],["賴委員士葆：喔！那你應該要搜索。"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局沒有司法調查權，所以我們就移送調查局偵辦。"],["賴委員士葆：謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林憶君委員上台質詢。待會兒張啓楷委質詢完畢，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.90846875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker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你要根據這個．所以日本組織你完全同意啊．"},{"start":252.357,"end":256.822,"text":"國泊向外,我們怎麼會這個樣子呢?好歹你也罵一下日本都不敢罵日本了,點志氣,罵大陸罵好大聲,結果大陸越罵,漁民越遭殃,請入會會的兩位主委"},{"start":266.208,"end":281.797,"text":"這處理過程都沒有謾罵,都還是理性的在...都是謾罵,怎麼沒有呢?都把那些,叛到大陸就是你沒有謾罵,別人謾罵,綠營的人謾罵,這個不錯啊,最近現在有笑容,前一陣子都沒有笑容啊,這個,來,梁副主委,鄭文燦算不算?鄭之中派算不算?"},{"start":291.138,"end":311.143,"text":"他對大陸的事情確實蠻了解的他算不算海基位裡面的鴿派鴿派鷹派都是在政府的政策方針之下做事的所以我不覺得有什麼鴿派鷹派之分胡格來台灣是不是背後他牽線的"},{"start":312.967,"end":340.905,"text":"不是 這個不是虎哥來台這個是他們送寒箭到陸委會那陸委會這邊來核定的所以是你核定的其中之一就是你有簽字嘛應該是先到文化部文化部過來陸委會所以虎哥能夠來你有功勞我不會說是我的功勞虎哥來台灣對兩岸是好事吧"},{"start":342.924,"end":345.072,"text":"我們對正常的交流我們都歡迎"},{"start":347.832,"end":367.439,"text":"現在看起來整門串外面的解讀是被賴清德追殺這個看起來海基會大概來講本來就沒什麼功能老實講陸委會沒什麼功能你會一直強調賴清德講過一遍就三天口口講口口講新兩國論口口講講到尾了結果是把人民"},{"start":374.702,"end":394.17,"text":"提起龍你知道嗎 撞撞撞兩岸大人吵架 受殃的是人民 漁民受殃我們的基層普羅大眾受殃 旅遊業受殃老百姓受殃 老百姓旅遊業都希望 省裡能夠做得成無形旅遊團 台灣人的願望沒有很大啦"},{"start":395.792,"end":396.193,"text":"從最近的總總看來"},{"start":420.083,"end":423.65,"text":"我們不斷的你說錄了半天他飛機愛過來就過來他船愛過來就過來他人愛過來就直接上了要淡水的碼頭"},{"start":432.331,"end":454.329,"text":"過去最少兩岸有一個默契兩岸互不承認主權互不否認治權我們中華民國的有效治理區域台澎金馬大陸是不否定的現在等於否定了他登船登我們的漁船上面去扣人扣船"},{"start":455.35,"end":461.606,"text":"很可怕請問你這個是不是大陸不承認我們的治權是不是已經發生了"},{"start":463.15,"end":492.052,"text":"這另外有一個面向要注意的是中國大陸在區域裡面不管是軍事或海上的灰色地帶擴張也越來越積極、越來越強烈所以不只委員剛所提到的台海地區東海、南海都有類似的狀況也包括燈檢或去毆打那個菲律賓的相關的官士兵所以這樣的整體的趨勢我們要列入安全環境的維護你沒有回答問題我的問題是他有沒有現在已經否認中華民國的有效治理區域這個事情有沒有否認"},{"start":492.592,"end":499.698,"text":"那這個我沒有辦法替中華人民共和國政府來回答那這行為就是否認啊!那這行為就是否認啊!我沒有來注意這樣你這個行為是不是否認?我沒有來注意這樣你要大聲抗議啊!"},{"start":505.601,"end":516.427,"text":"我們不爽啊你這樣子我們有效的統治這個有效的治理太本金馬為什麼隨便就扣船隨便就上來我們上次也呼籲兩岸在處理類似的事件應該要累積另外一個小問題到底台灣有沒有第五裝隊"},{"start":523.231,"end":545.24,"text":"這部分我已經有說明過,因為第五中隊不是法律用語,那假如有中共對台滲透違反法律要件的話,我們會積極地...其實第五中隊就是沒有暴露的間諜嘛,對不對?這叫第五中隊?對,一般學術上是有這樣的定義,沒有錯。但我們在法律上要依法來處理。阿有沒有這些人嗎?有沒有這些人?對,只要有違反法律要件的我們就會偵辦。阿有多少人?有幾十萬人嗎?"},{"start":547.298,"end":547.699,"text":"媒體盯哨這件事情到底有沒有這回事?"},{"start":563.098,"end":563.899,"text":"接下來請林益君委員上台諮詢"}]}},{"id":"154560","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154560","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a9602d8c03d5eb9c1ce876c6524d02f36cf84bbc3b5148b936ffb1ffb47bf31ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"10:17:50 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也好或是工作也好到那裡去旅遊有沒有可能就因此觸犯了這個反間諜法我想請問國安局還有陸委會到底這些紅線在哪裡國人都很想了解"},{"start":85.993,"end":103.164,"text":"這大概包括幾個部分一個部分是中共確實為了加強對國內政治社會的一個控制那通過很多的國安法制那這些國安法制包括剛剛委員所提到的反間諜法還有保守國家秘密法以及相關配套的作業規定跟相關的解釋意見不斷的出台"},{"start":103.624,"end":127.326,"text":"那也造成了很多包括國際社會上對於到對岸來從事經商旅遊的風險警示不斷的在升高當中所以這是一個大的發展的態勢那第二部分可能在過程當中從去年到現在我們已經有15位的國人進入到對岸去之後遭到了拘禁還有審判那另外有51位的國人在經過了"},{"start":128.647,"end":152.61,"text":"陸港澳的海關遭盤查詢問,我們也發現這個個案比例越來越高。主要問題回答委員的問題就在於說,他的國安法制解釋的空間太模糊了,也讓第一線的查查人員有他自己的權限來進行每一個不同個案的解釋。所以這是我們為什麼會對於陸委會提高對國人道對岸的一個旅遊警示的相關的一個"},{"start":154.031,"end":172.663,"text":"提高的那個警示的程度我們都尊重陸委會相關的一個安排那至於委員在提問的是國人該注意什麼那從我們剛剛跟委員報告樣態裡面大概有幾個部分要特別注意的那第一個部分是假如曾經有公開的批判中共相關的黨政或是相關的人權問題的話"},{"start":174.124,"end":200.752,"text":"這類人是在進出中國比較容易列為高風險的對象那第二個是曾經在高科技服務的那也曾經發生過有這樣的案例在進出海關的時候遭到了盤查跟詢問那第三個是有跟相關的一些公民組織或團體比較活躍的這些社團的人士在入境的時候也比較容易遭到盤查所以這大概是一些我們從去年以來所整理的樣態跟委員做個簡單的說明"},{"start":201.972,"end":215.865,"text":"那如果說這個國人到中國去,在那之前,比如說他在網路上有搜尋的一些照片啊,地圖啊,或是有儲存的一些批評中國的這些文章,這些人有沒有可能出犯反間諜法?對,對,確實會,會,風險非常的大。這個是會,就算是儲存,"},{"start":221.13,"end":221.791,"text":"中共海關確實會去查查我們的電子的設備"},{"start":239.522,"end":264.52,"text":"那也會去看你以前的一些通訊的記錄還有你的聯絡人交友的狀況那這些他在經過勾勒之後認定你是可能涉及到國安風險的話可能就會啟動他的相關的一個徵訊的作業那這部分也是我們要特別提醒注意的另外再補充一點是假如以前在台灣具有公職或軍事或相關國安單位的退離職的人員復入的話風險也非常非常的高"},{"start":265.24,"end":267.141,"text":"副主委對這部分有沒有想要跟國人提醒的部分?"},{"start":281.809,"end":307.765,"text":"就是因為風險我們看到確實有提高的狀態所以我們才會把這個附入警示提升為橙色燈號那這個意思就是說我們意識到會有風險所以我們在警示國人自己要去的時候要特別注意那我們也可能要特別提醒國人因為我們現在也收到一些"},{"start":308.786,"end":336.709,"text":"所謂在兩岸就是投資的一些科技公司大公司他們會來詢問我們說那如果他們派台幹台灣籍的幹部或是怎麼樣去那邊會有什麼需要注意的地方那我們都會跟他們提醒各種可能的樣態那據我知道他很多公司他現在已經開始就是派台灣籍幹部過去的時候都希望他們帶這個新的手機"},{"start":347.873,"end":361.137,"text":"主委,今年4月他們有公布國家安全機關行政執法程序規定跟國家安全機關辦理刑事事件程序規定,它裡面都有提到執法人員是可以查驗電子設備,查驗電子設備是隨機就可以嗎?"},{"start":365.579,"end":379.935,"text":"對因為他很多都是主觀認定因為他雖然雖然說就是有他們說我們的對象很明確他們雖然說對象很明確但是因為對我們外界的人來講對象其實是不知道他的對象到底是誰"},{"start":380.876,"end":401.678,"text":"所以我還是建議說去大陸特別是如果你要在那邊待的比較長期的話就是自己的電子設備不管是手機或是平板電腦或者是筆記型電腦這些最好還是用新的帶過去這樣會比較好一點"},{"start":405.743,"end":424.534,"text":"中國近期還是接連發生了一些攻擊外國人的事件引起外界很大的疑慮像美國上個月有兩起一個是有四位美國的學者被攻擊再來還有就是"},{"start":426.056,"end":443.356,"text":"日本的一對母子也是被攻擊,類似這樣子的事件那會不會就是因為說中國他國內的一些仇美或仇日的一些言論造成這些事件的發生但我們比較擔心的就是像反台獨言論其實在中國這裡其實也是"},{"start":445.818,"end":448.342,"text":"國安局和陸委會針對這些疑慮有沒有做一些怎麼樣防範的工作"},{"start":461.518,"end":489.501,"text":"我們有在注意,也就是說現在在中國大陸有一個現象就是網路上有很多的資訊或是很多網紅散佈的影片那它有一些排外或是民族主義的情緒那中共的網管在這部分並沒有做嚴密的一個控管所以造成這些有問題的影片或相關言論常常是散佈了很久之後才遭到下架那可是已經閱聽的群眾已經非常非常的多"},{"start":489.921,"end":490.342,"text":"我會做怎樣的防範?"},{"start":516.523,"end":537.055,"text":"因為這麼多的國人在中國,我們也擔心他們的安全。對,我們還是要警示,就是有附路準備的話,可能還是要了解一下目前當地的一些樣態。那在當地的國人我們還是會警示他,假如說在外的一些活動還是要注意到不要跟一些比較陌生的人有太多"},{"start":538.436,"end":540.718,"text":"陸委會是長期在呼籲國人要注意自己的安全但是因為我們"},{"start":559.338,"end":575.715,"text":"國人在大陸確實人數非常多而且許多人他覺得說自己已經在大陸已經很熟悉了所以應該是安全無虞但是我們也看到不少案例就是很熟悉"},{"start":576.816,"end":580.118,"text":"很熟悉,覺得自己安全無虞,所以才出了事。"},{"start":600.35,"end":622.533,"text":"是,我是覺得副主委說的沒錯,國人常常想說,不會是我啊,對不對,就像反那個間諜法也是一樣,他說我平常我也沒做什麼事情啊,不會輪到我,所以他就覺得OK,沒問題,對,實際上我們有發現,其實之前就發生過,旅行團裡面有團員莫名其妙被帶走的這個事情,所以國人還是不得不謹慎。OK,好,以上謝謝。"},{"start":626.438,"end":629.689,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請賴志寶委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154559","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154559","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a86008eb005e1ab8dce876c6524d02f36cf84bbc3b5148b931563234e73618c5b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:02:30 - 10:17:36","影片長度":"00:15:06","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T10:02:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T10:17:36+08:00","duration":906,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時2分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局蔡局長，還有陸委會副主委。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，馬委員早！"],["馬委員文君：謝謝局長還有副主委。今天我們很多委員關切的問題大概也都是目前國人非常關心的，因為上個禮拜突然就把整個會議取消了，讓大家枯坐一整天，所以我們今天對於大家非常關切的議題重新再安排一次會議，我們也希望這些問題可以有機會好好的來做詢答或者後續的因應處理。","上週發生澎湖籍漁船在金門海域被大陸海警船帶回大陸滯留的狀況，接下來還有港福洋漁船也被日本抓走了，可是這個部分很快的就以罰款方式把它解決了，現在澎湖籍大進滿的這個部分，請問局長跟陸委會怎麼看？或者要怎麼處理？因為局長在第一時間接受採訪時有提到這是一個不尋常的案例，然後又說中共可能藉由漁事的扣押、行政裁罰來展現對臺灣的管轄權，還有政府的立場等等。當時在第一時間局長有這樣提到，可是接下來跟日本的處置模式好像又不太一樣。對於行政管轄權也好，或者它的休漁期也好，這個過去每年都有，過去沒有發生的狀況今年發生了，我們也已經進到現在的階段，請問國安局局長有什麼樣不同的看法嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：那天也是從兩個面向來跟媒體做說明，第一個部分是法律的面向，法律的面向因為涉及到是不是我們的漁船有進入到中共的管轄水域，違反當地的法規而遭到查辦，這是第一個，法律……"],["馬委員文君：局長，這個很明確，我想不要再把時間花在這裡。"],["蔡局長明彥：第二個部分是政治的面向，也就是委員現在正在關注的，會不會這些個案背後所反映的是中共希望來凸顯在臺海地區的管轄權，然後來對我們的政府進行施壓，這個部分也是我們正在觀察跟研判的，因為還要看這個個案發生以來這幾天中共在一些爭議訊息的操作及媒播效應的處理，我們才能夠判斷他的政治意圖到底是什麼。"],["馬委員文君：因為我們從之前因為撞船事件造成兩個大陸漁民死亡的這個案件，一直到3月份有一個士官釣魚不慎迷航到大陸，到現在還被留置在那裡，我們也一籌莫展，現在又發生了這樣的漁船事件，然後也被留置，到現在我們也沒有辦法處理。可是相對於像日本，因為臺灣所有漁民的作業場域其實都是有風險的，或者是重疊爭議的海域非常多，包括之前在菲律賓附近也曾發生廣大興號船長被打死的事件，所以其實我們面臨的包括日本也是，可是我們對於日本顯然好像都是他們說了算。但是對於大陸，到目前為止，我們還沒有辦法把我們的人不管是救回來也好，或者讓他們平安地回來也好，到現在好像所有的事件，我剛剛講的，都還沒有辦法發聲。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這些漁事糾紛的處理，我想政府的相關單位，不管是陸委會、海巡署或外交部，他們都會針對不同國家的相關個案來跟對口進行溝通……"],["馬委員文君：過去沒有發生，現在為什麼發生，我們在乎的是這個，因為過去有默契，每年他都有休漁期，我們的爭議海域或傳統作業漁場，我們一開始就很清楚地知道那是傳統的作業魚場，表示我們一直都是這樣在那裡生活的，所以對於漁民來說，其實他們傷害是最大的，他們現在無所適從，他們只要一出門都可能有風險，可是國家沒有辦法保護他們，這個才是國安單位要非常慎重考量的。","另外，國安局對於陸方的轉變，這是賴總統就職以後的兩國論述呢？還是美國大選的蝴蝶效應？還是中非南海衝突後的邊際效應？還是中俄朝三方結盟以後東北亞局勢轉變再加上美軍逐漸轉移第一島鏈兵力到第二島鏈以後讓陸方有了底氣？對於以上這幾個理由，局長，你有什麼看法？因為過去沒有這樣發生，現在發生了，剛剛說的這些理由有沒有可能是現在局勢的變化？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，剛剛委員有提到一些總體地緣政治發展的動態，這個部分我們尊重，但是我們也確實有注意到，最近中共的海警單位不只是在臺海地區，在東海、南海的動作也都非常的大，包括萬噸級的海巡艦也是到日本海域去巡弋，另外一艘萬噸級海巡艦也才剛巡弋完南海地區，所以現在國際社會對於中國在海事上的擴張動作都非常的關注。"],["馬委員文君：國際的關注我們都很清楚，我們在乎的是我們的人民及我們的漁民，因為我們一出去就回不來了，到目前為止都是這樣，所以這是國安單位應該要給答案，而不是告訴我們現在整個周邊的情勢跟國際局勢，所以請局長簡單說明我們有什麼樣的分析及作為嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有關這個部分，中共在海上灰色地帶的操作確實最近的頻次是有比較高，這也是我們現在……"],["馬委員文君：我剛剛說我們在乎的是我們的人民及漁民，對此，你們有沒有什麼樣因應的作為？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這個部分我們也會繼續在我們行政管轄的海域來加強相關的巡查，保護我們的漁民的合法海事活動。"],["馬委員文君：人呢？現在人呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：人的部分，陸委會好像已經有積極在聯繫當中。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，因為這件事情基本上是屬於中共現在是宣布的休漁季，所謂伏季休漁……"],["馬委員文君：那過去為什麼不會？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該是這樣講，就是說，要看他們對於海上執法的力道跟政策……"],["馬委員文君：現在力道變得很強嘛，是為了什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：力道……"],["馬委員文君：陸委會可以做什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：其實我們的漁業署每年5月也會配合，因為對方宣布休漁期，所以我們漁業署也會叫漁民要注意，對方對方宣布休漁期，沒必要不要進入。"],["馬委員文君：好，因為過去也有發生，過去大概就是驅離，現在是把船都拖走了，本席現在是問我們現在怎麼辦？因為日本你可以跟他談，然後人家說要賠多少我們就賠了，可是現在對於陸方，他們是不是有要求，或者怎麼要求，或者我們應該怎麼讓我們的漁民或我們的國人，之前那個士官，甚至國防部都廣開方便讓他直接退伍了，他已經不具軍人的身分，我們現在可以怎麼樣讓他們平安的回來？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得第一個，我還是要呼籲一下就是說……"],["馬委員文君：有跟他們談嗎？陸委會有跟他們談嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：有，我們是有各種管道。"],["馬委員文君：有談嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是有各種管道。"],["馬委員文君：現在他們怎麼說？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：現在的問題是這樣，因為這個……"],["馬委員文君：他們怎麼說？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：因為所謂違反休漁季的這個行為，在中共的法律裡面是可以判到三年以下或者拘役或者罰金等等……"],["馬委員文君：好，沒關係，因為它過去也可以驅離……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：就是看它要用什麼樣的方法……"],["馬委員文君：好，陸委會有跟他們談過了嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們有各種管道。"],["馬委員文君：有談嗎？現在他們怎麼說？不要講法律，就是他們怎麼說？因為有管道嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：現在都還沒有明確的消息。"],["馬委員文君：沒有消息？所以……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有明確，沒有明確的消息。"],["馬委員文君：所以管道不管用還是？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該是說，我覺得可能他們也沒有很明確的決定。"],["馬委員文君：那個軍人呢？就是現在不具軍人身分的那個士官，3月份……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：那位胡姓士官，我們還是一再呼籲，就是這是人道，完全沒有理由扣押四個月。是。"],["馬委員文君：所以，有什麼樣的作法？我們知道他怎麼樣，因為包括陳玉珍委員都跟家屬過去探視，照理說我們陸委會在過去，不管海基會也好，陸委會也好，我們有非常多的管道，而且是明確的、正式的管道可以去談判，我們現在對於不斷、不斷、不斷發生，未來還是會有，因為現在周邊的情勢更緊張了，未來還是會有，如果我們拿這些一點辦法都沒有，其實陸委會應該要非常……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，有管道是一回事，但是對方要怎麼做又是另外一回事。所以，譬如說，像大進滿88號這一艘船，我們會有管道瞭解，但是他要怎麼做……"],["馬委員文君：副主委，過去任何事情發生的時候，我們不但有管道，而且是可以解決的，現在沒有辦法解決，這是政府的問題，而且也是所有部會的問題而不是人民的問題，怎麼樣保護我們的漁民、保護我們的人民，不管你的對象是誰，你都要有談判的能力，你要有解救他們的能力，這個才是有為的政府。這是我們今天要說的，因為到目前為止，聽起來當然還沒有任何的作法。","因為時間的關係，我想要再請教。局長，2022年8月美國眾議院前議長裴洛西訪臺的時候，曾經引發解放軍圍臺實彈軍演，也發生了總統府、外交部、國防部的官網接連遭到中國大陸駭客癱瘓的事情，然後民間單位也有出現駭客攻擊，包括臺鐵還有超商螢幕看板都被侵入的事情，這些應該還記憶猶新，包括世界經濟論壇2024年的全球風險報告，也把網路攻擊列為目前全球第五大風險，也認為這是國家之間一個灰色衝突的區域。對於我們來說，剛剛也有很多委員提到，我們用了很多的陸製產品，不管是國防部也好，就是像無人機國家隊，其他還包括很多資安方面都用到陸製的產品，像這方面的衝突跟影響或者它的危害，我們現在還有什麼樣的作法？比如說像學校，您的看法怎麼樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，境內的……"],["馬委員文君：如果學校像大專院校被駭的話。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，也有這樣的案例。我跟委員說明一下，在二合一選舉之前，我們政府每天遭到侵害的次數大概有一百萬次，選後大概都有兩百五十萬次之多，所以確實侵害的頻次越來越多，這是第一個發展趨勢。第二個是它攻擊的對象，也開始從政府到民間企業，甚至到學校，就是委員正在講的部分，這部分新的發展樣態，我們政府都有一個通報跟應處的機制在。"],["馬委員文君：其實這個不是新的發展樣態……"],["蔡局長明彥：而且是往民間企業在發動攻擊。"],["馬委員文君：2019年行政院有大概1.5億招標臺灣學術網路系統優化的採購案，本席當時有提醒教育部還有行政院應該要注意這個事情，後來驗收時卻被發現違約採用中國製零組件，但是教育部後來為了顧及臺灣學術網路的正常運作，只邀集行政院的資安處以及相關的學者研商，然後就說中國製元件無資安風險。可是當你在要求不可以有陸製產品的時候，我們在合約中明明白白寫了很多，可是就像剛剛有委員講的，事情發生後我們根本就只是叫它換掉，或者甚至你間接地承認說這個沒有資安風險。可是我們看到過去行政院下令說公務機關不可以使用，結果這個案子因為教育部扣它的款減價驗收，對方提告，結果法官不這樣認為，到最後法官是判它勝訴的。","所以，就資安這部分，為了維護資安的需求，政府要怎麼樣採一致的標準，我想這也是我們現在應該要討論的，因為過去專家提出說，現在駭客開始利用網路邊緣裝置，包括路由器、防火牆或者VPN等等，其實這些都是可以做攻擊的，可是我們竟然把這些放掉了。而且可能因為是比較大的公司，因為遠傳併購亞太接手了此案，所以其實我們就把它放掉了。不過，資安廠商他們觀察發現，臺灣招網工的前五大產業，臺灣教育跟研究單位是居冠的，而且是全球的兩倍，這個最大的風險是什麼？現在包括我們的國防部，很多重要的研究案都是委託給各大專院校，如果他們擔任顧問或承接研究案，因為駭客如果要攻擊政府部門比較不容易，他藉由攻擊這樣的學術單位，同樣可以拿到我們很多機敏的資料，這個部分國安局有什麼樣的看法？"],["蔡局長明彥：大概有兩個部分，一個部分是防範外來的、對我們資安系統的侵害，這是傳統的作業重點；另外一部分是委員正在提醒的，也就是供應鏈資通訊設備的安全性問題，這部分變成是我們現在在資安防阻上主要的一個聚焦……"],["馬委員文君：這一個案子請國安單位再持續追蹤，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個我會，我們還在注意……"],["馬委員文君：因為就這個部分，它對於我們全國大專院校，上至臺大、成大，所有接受我們研究案的大專院校全部都在裡面，而且全部都是使用他們的一些相關的零附件，包括它的板子其實都是，所以這個部分請國安單位持續去關注，然後也給我們一個相關的回復報告。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們繼續來追問，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。下面請陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員不在。","請羅美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":4.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.26159375,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.72971875,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.058468750000003,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.28409375,"end":44.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.985968750000005,"end":57.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.844718750000006,"end":118.15596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.29096875,"end":157.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.32284375,"end":134.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.52534375000002,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.45846875,"end":214.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.03534375,"end":223.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.23659375000003,"end":233.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.02846875,"end":287.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.33221875000004,"end":259.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.08721875000003,"end":297.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.77346875,"end":321.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.54596875000004,"end":335.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.46784375000004,"end":343.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.16284375000004,"end":352.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.92534375,"end":358.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.54034375000003,"end":368.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.20159375000003,"end":367.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.24346875000003,"end":369.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.54284375000003,"end":372.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.20034375,"end":380.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.16971875,"end":385.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.53221875,"end":384.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.38846875,"end":387.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.86909375000005,"end":397.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.74534375,"end":399.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.77034375000005,"end":399.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.49159375000005,"end":402.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.08221875000004,"end":404.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.98034375000003,"end":420.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.16846875000005,"end":450.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.73596875000004,"end":430.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.10409375,"end":455.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.57596875,"end":456.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.22534375000004,"end":458.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.36034375,"end":461.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.77346875,"end":460.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.62971875000005,"end":463.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.69284375,"end":471.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.13971875000004,"end":466.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.97409375,"end":477.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.32784375000006,"end":479.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.52596875,"end":478.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.16284375000004,"end":479.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.92221875,"end":482.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.66034375000004,"end":484.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.97659375,"end":483.04409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.30971875000006,"end":485.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.67659375000005,"end":491.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.67596875000004,"end":494.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.35034375000004,"end":494.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.755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非南海衝突後的邊際效應還是中俄朝三方結盟以後東北亞局勢轉變再加上美軍逐漸轉移第一島鏈兵力到第二島鏈以後讓陸方有了底氣像這幾個理由"},{"start":288.14,"end":292.304,"text":"局長你有什麼看法?因為過去沒有這樣發生,現在發生了那這些剛剛說的這些理由有沒有可能是現在的變化,局勢的變化?對阿,剛我有提到一些總體地緣政治發展的動態這部分我們尊重,但是我們也確實有注意到"},{"start":304.736,"end":321.597,"text":"最近中共的海警單位不只是在台海地區在東海、南海動作也都非常的大包括萬頓級的海巡艦也是到日本海域去巡弋那另外一艘萬頓級海巡艦也才剛巡弋完南海地區所以現在國際社會對於中國在海事上的一個擴張的動作都非常的關注"},{"start":322.965,"end":339.709,"text":"國際的關注我們都很清楚我們在乎的是我們的人民還有我們的漁民因為我們一出去就回不來了到目前為止都是這樣所以這是國安單位應該要給的答案而不是告訴我們現在整個周邊的情勢跟國際局勢所以局長簡單說我們有什麼樣的一個分析的作為嗎"},{"start":344.37,"end":371.86,"text":"對,在這部分中共在海上的灰色地帶的操作確實最近的評次是有比較高那這也是我們現在在...我剛剛在乎的,我們在乎的是我們的人民還有漁民有沒有什麼樣盈利的作為?有,這部分我們也會繼續的來在我們的行政管轄的海域來加強相關的巡查那保護我們...人呢?合法的海事的活動現在人呢?人的部分,陸委會好像已經有積極在聯繫當中"},{"start":375.503,"end":398.453,"text":"報告委員,因為這件事情基本上是屬於中共現在宣布的休餘劑那過去為什麼不會?應該是這樣講,就是說要看他們對於海上執法的力道跟政策那現在力道變得很強,是為了什麼?"},{"start":400.486,"end":401.228,"text":"其實我們的漁業署"},{"start":405.029,"end":428.541,"text":"每年5月也會配合因為對方宣布休漁期所以我們也會漁業署也會叫漁民說要注意對方宣布休漁期好那現在因為過去也有發生過去大概就是驅離現在是把船都拖走了我們現在是問那我們現在怎麼辦因為日本你可以跟他談然後人家說要賠多少我們就賠了可是現在對於陸方他們的"},{"start":432.663,"end":454.993,"text":"是不是有要求或者怎麼要求或者我們應該怎麼讓我們的漁民或者包括我們的國人之前那個士官甚至國防部都廣開方便讓他直接退伍了他已經不具軍人的身份可是我們現在可以怎麼樣讓他們回來平安的回來我覺得第一個我還是要呼籲一下就是說有跟他們談嗎"},{"start":457.43,"end":477.594,"text":"陸委會有跟他們談嗎?是有各種管道那現在的問題是這樣因為所謂的違反休餘劑的這個行為他在中共的法律裡面他是可以判到三年以下或者拘役或者罰金等等就是看他要用什麼樣的方法陸委會有跟他們談過了嗎?"},{"start":484.375,"end":506.611,"text":"我們有各種管道有談到現在他們怎麼說因為不要講法律就他們怎麼說現在都還沒有明確的消息沒有消息沒有明確的消息所以管道不管用還是應該是說我覺得可能他們也沒有很明確的決定那個軍人呢"},{"start":509.82,"end":520.192,"text":"那位胡姓士官我們還是一再呼籲這是人道,其實完全沒有理由扣押4個月所以有什麼樣的做法?"},{"start":527.632,"end":552.738,"text":"我們知道他怎麼樣因為包括陳玉珍委員他都跟家屬都過去探視照理說我們陸委會在過去不管海基會也好陸委會也好我們用非常多的管道而且是明確的正式的管道其實可以去談判我們現在對於不斷不斷不斷發生未來還是會有因為現在周邊的情勢更緊張了未來還是會有如果我們拿這些都一點辦法都沒有其實陸委會應該要"},{"start":555.018,"end":569.559,"text":"報告委員有管道是一回事但是對方要怎麼做又是另外一回事所以譬如說像大靜滿88這一艘船我們會有管道瞭解但是他要怎麼做另外一回事"},{"start":570.14,"end":576.066,"text":"事情發生的時候其實不但有管道而且是可以解決的現在沒有辦法解決這是政府的問題而且是所有部會的問題而不是人民的問題怎麼樣保護我們的漁民保護我們的人民怎麼樣跟不管你的對象是誰你都要有談判的能力你要解救他們的能力這個才是有為的政府"},{"start":592.04,"end":594.381,"text":"這是我們今天要說的因為到目前為止聽起來當然還沒有任何的做法所以因為時間的關係我想要再請教一個就是局長在2022年8月美國眾議院前議長培洛西他訪台的時候曾經引發解放軍圍台實彈軍演"},{"start":610.069,"end":614.77,"text":"那也發生了總統府外交部、國防部、官網接連遭到中國大陸駭客癱瘓的這個事情然後民間單位也有出現駭客攻擊包括台鐵還有超商螢幕看板都被侵入的事情這個應該還記憶猶新那如果像這樣子包括世界經濟論壇在2024年他全球風險報告的時候也把網路攻擊列為目前全球第五大風險"},{"start":637.597,"end":637.857,"text":"對於像這樣子的一個"},{"start":662.172,"end":670.261,"text":"衝突跟影響．或者它的危害．我們現在還有什麼樣的做法．比如說像學校．您的看法怎麼樣．如果學校被害的話．大專院校"},{"start":676.192,"end":700.541,"text":"有這樣的案例跟委員說明一下事實上在二合一選舉之前大概我們每天政府遭到侵害的次數有100萬次那選後大概都有250萬次之多所以確實侵害的頻次越來越多這是第一個發展的趨勢那第二個是他攻擊的對象也開始從政府到民間企業甚至到學校委員正在講的部分那這部分新的一個發展樣態我們政府都有一個通報跟應處的機制在"},{"start":701.841,"end":705.745,"text":"其實這個不是新的發展樣態啦這個在2019年的時候我們行政院其實有大概1.5億招標台灣學術網路系統優化的採購案這個本席在當時其實有提醒我們教育部還有行政院其實應該要注意這個事情因為"},{"start":722.102,"end":743.435,"text":"其實在現在所有的像教育部後來為了顧及台灣學術網路正常運作他只是邀請了行政院的相關學者或者治安處然後就說這個沒有無治安風險可是當你在做其他要求說不可以有錄製產品的時候我們在合約明明白白寫了很多可是就像剛剛有委員講的我們"},{"start":745.496,"end":763.71,"text":"根本就是只是叫他換掉或者甚至你間接的承認說這個沒有治安風險可是我們看到過去行政院他下令說公務機關不可以使用結果這個案子到最後法官是判他是勝訴的"},{"start":765.489,"end":769.272,"text":"因為對方有提告教育部有扣他的款結果法官是不這樣認為所以就資安的這個部分因為在維護資安需求政府要怎麼樣採一致的標準我想這個也是我們現在應該要講的因為過去都說在專家提出說現在駭客開始利用網路邊緣的裝置包括路由器防火牆或者"},{"start":793.368,"end":818.52,"text":"其實這些都是可以做供給的可是我們竟然把這些放掉了而且可能是因為比較大的公司因為遠傳接手了所以其實我們就把它放掉了不過資安的廠商他們有觀察發現台灣招網工的前五大產業台灣教育跟研究單位是居冠的而且是全球的兩倍"},{"start":819.841,"end":844.979,"text":"那這個最大的風險是什麼我們現在包括我們的國防部包括有我們很多的重要的一個研究案都是委託給很多的各大專院校那如果他們擔任顧問或承接研究案他駭客如果要攻擊因為政府部門的比較不容易他藉由這樣子的學術單位其實他同樣可以達到我們很多機敏的資料那這個部分國安局有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":845.399,"end":860.551,"text":"大概有兩個部分一個部分是防範外來的對我們資安系統的侵害這是傳統的作業重點那另外一部分是委員正在提醒的也就是供應鏈、自動訊設備的安全性的問題那這部分變成是我們現在在資安防處上主要的一個具體問題"},{"start":860.691,"end":865.556,"text":"那這個案子請你請管單位再持續追蹤好不好因為就這個部分它對於我們全國大專院校它上至台大、成大什麼所有的接受我們的研究案的全部的大專院校都在裡面而且全部都是使用他們的一些相關的臨附件"},{"start":882.712,"end":882.732,"text":"陳穎委員"}]}},{"id":"154558","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154558","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a77565989dd723bf3ce876c6524d02f36cf84bbc3b5148b93544e1c7167db85fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:51:39 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10:02:24","影片長度":"00:10:45","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T09:51:39+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T10:02:24+08:00","duration":645,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":315,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（9時51分）謝謝主席，有請國安局長，還有陸委會。"],["主席：請國安局蔡局長，還有陸委會副主委，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：黃委員早。"],["黃委員仁：你好。今天我們再延續徐巧芯剛剛所提的，大陸駐臺記者盯梢臺灣的政論節目，我請問一下陸委會，找不到爆料者，目前有沒有查到證據？不排除可能有一些證據。請問一下國安局長、陸委會，不排除可能有一些證據是什麼意思？到底是有些證據還是沒有證據？但現在硬要找證據。梁副主委說沒有查到證據，一下子又說不排除有一些證據。如果今天涉及到記者已經離臺，副主委，找不到爆料者，國人被這一些自相矛盾邏輯的說法弄得迷迷糊糊，也造成了執政黨現在在做的是故意要讓大家搞不清楚狀況，用政治操作讓國人相互猜疑，製造社會的分裂，這就是本席現在質詢的，中共不只對我們有認知作戰，我看執政黨對我們內部也認知作戰，到底是怎麼一回事？現在都自相矛盾，國人看得迷迷糊糊。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，陸委會跟文化部所能做的是行政調查，所謂行政調查，就是我們現在是追溯性的，然後去詢問相關當事人，而這些相關當事人給我們的回答，到目前為止我們所得到就是東森新聞，它是否認的；新華社方面呢？它也否認；自由時報呢？它說保護消息來源，所以不方便透露。這個部分從行政調查的權責範圍來講，我們只能夠做到這裡，那接下來的其他部分，大概就要由司法跟國安去做，所以我當然不能夠說行政調沒有查到的東西就不存在，因此不排除可能有一些證據，但是絕對不會……"],["黃委員仁：所以上次你說找不到……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：絕對不會製造證據。"],["黃委員仁：已經調查到第一線裡面，所以你找不到證據，可是你又說……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：用行政調查的角度來說，是沒有證據的。"],["黃委員仁：你又說可能有一些證據……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：行政調查是找不到證據。"],["黃委員仁：這就是因為你把國人弄得糊糊塗塗的，造成了很多的一些狀況。目前盯梢的問題，你們現在已經有在積極查了嗎？什麼時候要做一個報告說有沒有查到？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：行政調查的部分，我們基本上已經完成了。"],["黃委員仁：好，完成了，你們要做後續的一個報告嗎？跟國人交代一下，就是到底你們有沒有屬實找到這樣的一個作為？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們會就行政調查的部分讓大家知道，但是基本上就是我剛剛所報告的，大概的內容就是這樣。"],["黃委員仁：認知作戰不要常常對著我們自己人，認知作戰是我們要共同對外，以上是本席要跟你報告的。另外就是有關於國安，國安局，關於大家國人所關心的，就是大進滿88號越界捕魚，在7月2號晚上遭到大陸海警扣留，目前有一名是臺灣的船長，另外一名臺灣的船員，有三名是外籍的船員。請問一下，目前國人關心的，因為現在在海上常常發生被扣留，要不然就是被衝撞，甚至日本查扣了我們的船員等等，但是這個大進滿88號漁船，目前你們有沒有跟對岸有正面性的來做一個交換意見，甚至如何保障這些漁船？現在很多的家庭，就已經擔心我們國家的執政黨有沒有這個能力處理。"],["蔡局長明彥：就委員提到的這個個案來講，政府的立場應該行政院也有對外說明，一個部分是海上的這些海事活動、我們漁民的海事活動，只要合法的話，政府會提供全力的協助跟保護。假如進入到比較敏感的水域的話，可能我們的漁民也要注意一下當地國家的法令規範……"],["黃委員仁：現在可能會……"],["蔡局長明彥：個案的部分……"],["黃委員仁：局長，我現在跟你報告，現在常常有可能會發生，但是現在造成了很多船員的家庭，除了他的收入已經造成了困難；第二個，現在他可能會面臨失去他的家人，我們政府如何因應？如果常常會發生這樣的事情要怎麼辦？我們政府有沒有作為，讓我們的國人、百姓有定心丸？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分剛剛有跟委員說明，也就是說，漁民的作業水域還是要注意一下漁事作業的安全，特別是到敏感的水域，假如有進入到其他國家行政管轄的水域，那更要注意到當地的法令規定。以這案子來講，因為涉及到對岸的伏季休漁期，所以這部分可能我們以後要特別再提醒漁民要注意。至於個案的研究部分，我所知道的是，陸委會跟海巡署都有跟相關的對口在積極地洽詢，看怎麼樣把……"],["黃委員仁：過去有一個不成文的規定，在兩岸過去裡面，還會有一個良性互動的時候，不會那麼強硬的扣留船員，原則上是一個警告，沒有錯，但是隨時都會釋放出來，讓船員能夠安心回臺，然後不要造成家庭的擔憂。可是現在常常會發生，但是你們又無能處理如何跟兩岸之間做一個雙向的溝通，安心地把船員帶回來，目前只是這一件事情的發生，那下一次呢？如果再發生的話，我們國人又怎麼樣放心地交付給執政黨，相信他們的作為呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：兩岸在發生這樣一個漁事的問題以後，雙方還是會有一些管道來進行一些現況的瞭解，這部分應該陸委會跟海巡署都已經有在接洽過程當中，我們看也許陸委會……"],["黃委員仁：我希望你們的處理能儘快給國人一個交代，要不然現在人心惶惶。另外，宮廟染紅又屯彈藥的問題，我想請問國安局，民進黨中國事務部在今年的6月舉行中國對臺介選與統戰滲透的座談會，也指出北京藉由馬祖宮廟、里長等地方統戰，更確實達到影響民眾投票行為的介選效果。另外，我們在簽訂彈藥預屯點的支援協定，局長認為會不會有國安的疑慮？因為國防部的後備指揮部在日前發函給苗栗多間的宮廟，請問會不會有國安的疑慮？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想兩岸宗教宮廟的交流只要是合法的，我們都予以尊重，不過必須要提醒的是，在交流過程當中，中共還是會有一些政治上統戰的操作，這是我們要提醒我們國人的。另一部分是法律的部分，假如在交流過程當中，中共有刻意要運用我們宮廟的相關網絡來進行介選或進行發展組織的話，這會違反我們的法律要件，這部分我也提醒在交流過程當中，我們宮廟要注意的。至於適不適合要在宮廟來屯放一些彈藥，這部分可能由國防部業管單位來對外說明比較恰當。"],["黃委員仁：不過你們這個要弄清楚，現在宮廟的人也是人心惶惶，因為現在大家都說臺灣的宮廟都被中共滲透了，這些宮廟住持不只會成為中共滲透的突破點，恐怕也會在戰時成為第五縱隊啊！結果我們政府一邊懷疑宮廟的忠誠度，另外一邊又要宮廟配合戰時來存放彈藥，這難道不會是國安的風險？對於這個部分，局長，你們要化解這樣一個疑慮啊！現在很多宮廟，你們跟它們簽訂了協定，但又要懷疑它們是不是又是抹紅或滲透、怎麼樣怎麼樣的狀況，也造成它們在這個事情上對我們國安不滿，因為配合你們簽訂協定，怎麼會又懷疑它們呢？你們又抹紅它們，說它們被滲透了或怎麼樣的一個統戰的作為。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，正常合法的宗教交流我們都尊重，這是我們一開始講的基本原則，這也是我們民主國家的價值，但是宗教自由也不應該變成是中共對臺統戰滲透的護身符，所以我們會拿捏好這個分寸，謝謝委員提醒。"],["黃委員仁：這個是無證據的事情，我相信每一個百姓都是被污蔑了！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我剛才一再強調，合法正常的交流我們都絕對尊重，這個部分沒有問題。"],["黃委員仁：好，以上，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：謝謝黃委員，謝謝局長。","下面請馬文君委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.41909375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.73096875,"end":5.4478437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.03846875,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.974093750000002,"end":14.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":24.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.07346875,"end":26.507843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.507843750000003,"end":26.879093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.48221875,"end":52.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.96784375,"end":58.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.17846875,"end":55.330343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.329718750000005,"end":59.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.44346875,"end":99.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.59346875,"end":99.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.28534375000001,"end":100.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.30221875000001,"end":100.3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不排除可能有一些證據是什麼意思那到底是有些證據還是沒有證據但現在硬要找證據那梁主委說沒有查到證據一下子又說不排除"},{"start":53.203,"end":75.51,"text":"有一些政績如果今天涉及到記者已經離台那副主委找不到爆料者國人被這一些自相矛盾、邏輯的說法弄得迷迷糊糊也造成了這個執政黨現在在做的是故意要讓大家搞不清楚狀況"},{"start":77.09,"end":99.409,"text":"用政治操作讓國人相互猜疑製造社會的分裂這就是本席現在執行的中共不只對我們有認知作戰我看執政黨對我們內部認知作戰到底是什麼一回事現在都自相矛盾國人看得迷迷糊糊"},{"start":101.62,"end":119.39,"text":"報告委員這個陸委會跟文化部所能做的是行政調查所謂行政調查就是說我們現在是追溯性的然後去詢問相關當事人那這些相關當事人給我們的回答到目前為止我們所得到的就是"},{"start":122.406,"end":137.654,"text":"東森新聞他是否認的新華社方面呢他也否認那自由時報呢他說這個保護消息來源所以不方便透露那這個部分呢從行政調查的權責範圍來講我們只能夠做到這裡"},{"start":140.876,"end":154.72,"text":"那接下來其他部分大概就要由司法跟國安去做所以我當然不能夠說行政調查沒有查到的東西就不存在所以不排除會有可能有一些證據但是絕對不會製造證據"},{"start":160.542,"end":188.266,"text":"從行政調查的角度來說是沒有證據可能有一些可能有一些證據行政調查是找不到證據這就是因為你把國人弄得糊糊塗塗的造成了造成了很多一些狀況那目前丁少的問題那你們現在已經有正在積極的在查了嗎什麼時候什麼時候要做一個報告的時候有沒有查到"},{"start":190.151,"end":217.524,"text":"行政調查的部分我們已經基本上完成了對好那完成了你們要做後續的一個報告嗎就跟國人交代一下就是說到底你們有沒有屬實找到這樣的一個作為我們會就行政調查的部分讓大家知道但是基本上就是我剛剛所報告的大概的內容就是這樣對"},{"start":218.884,"end":232.741,"text":"認知作戰不要常常對著我們自己人我們認知作戰是我們是要共同對外以上這是我的本席所跟你報告的那另外就是有關於國安"},{"start":234.838,"end":253.604,"text":"關於大家國人關心的就是大靜滿88號業界的這個捕魚在7月2號晚上遭到大陸這個海警的扣留目前台灣有一個一名是台籍的這個台灣的船長"},{"start":254.364,"end":274.806,"text":"另外一名是台灣的船員有三名是外界的船員那請問一下國人關心的目前因為常常現在在海上常常發生了一個被扣留要不然是被來衝撞甚至日本查扣了我們的這個船員"},{"start":275.647,"end":301.862,"text":"等等但是你這個大季滿的88號的這個遺傳目前你們有沒有跟對岸有正面性的來做一個交換意見那甚至如何把這些保障這些遺傳現在很多的家庭就已經是擔心我們國家執政黨有沒有這個能力處理"},{"start":303.403,"end":326.489,"text":"對,就委員提到這個個案來講那政府的立場應該行政院也有對外說明那一個部分是海上的這些海事活動我們漁民的海事活動只要合法的話政府會提供權力的一個協助跟保護那假如進入到比較敏感的水域的話可能我們的漁民也要注意一下當地國家的法令的規範現在可能會對,個案的部分局長我現在跟你報告"},{"start":327.361,"end":352.04,"text":"現在可能會常常會有可能會發生但是現在造成了很多傳言的家庭除了他的收入已經造成了困難第二個現在他可能面臨面臨他的家人會失去他的家人那我們政府如何因應如果常常會發生這樣的事情要怎麼辦"},{"start":352.981,"end":359.647,"text":"那我們政府有沒有作為那讓我們的國人百姓有安定之心丸啊"},{"start":362.21,"end":386.977,"text":"這部分剛剛有跟委員說明了也就是說漁民的作業水域還是要注意一下漁市作業的安全特別是到敏感的水域那假如有進入到其他國家行政管轄的水域那更要注意到當地的法令規定那以這個案子來講因為涉及到對岸的福祉休餘期所以這部分可能我們以後要特別再提醒漁民要注意那至於個案的營救的部分我所知道的是陸委會跟海巡署都有跟相關的對口在積極的洽詢"},{"start":389.077,"end":399.245,"text":"過去有一個不成文的規定在兩岸過去裡面還會有一個良性的互動的時候不會那麼強硬的扣留傳言"},{"start":400.818,"end":428.118,"text":"原則上是一個警告沒有錯但是會隨時都會釋放出來把傳言能夠讓他安心的回台然後不要造成家庭的擔憂可是現在會常常會發生可是你們又無能的去處理如何跟兩岸之間做一個雙向的溝通安心的把傳言帶回來現在目前只是這件事情的發生"},{"start":428.698,"end":439.366,"text":"那下一次呢如果再發生的話那我們國人又怎麼樣的對我們執政黨放心的交付給執政黨相信他們的作為呢"},{"start":441.405,"end":470.476,"text":"對,兩岸在發生這樣的一個漁事的問題以後雙方還是會有一些管道來進行一些現況的一個瞭解那這部分應該陸委會跟海巡署都已經有在接洽過程當中我希望你們處理得盡快給國內一個交代要不然現在人是惶惶那另外就是公廟攘紅又囤這個彈藥的問題我想請國安局在民進黨中國事務部今年的6月起刑"},{"start":471.515,"end":490.031,"text":"這個中國對台界限及統戰滲透的座談會．也指出北京藉由馬祖宮廟、里長等地方統戰．更確實達到影響民眾投票行為的界限效果那另外就是我們在簽訂但要"},{"start":491.332,"end":506.019,"text":"一屯點的自研協定．局長認為會不會有國安的餘力．因為國防部的後備指揮部．在日前發函給苗栗多間的宮廟．那請問會不會有國安的餘力．"},{"start":507.083,"end":535.153,"text":"我想兩岸的宗教公廟的交流只要是合法的那我們都予以尊重那不過也要必須要提醒的是在交流過程當中中共還是會有一些政治上統戰的操作那這是我們要提醒我們國人的那另一部分是法律的部分那假如在交流過程當中中共有刻意要運用我們的公廟的相關的網絡來進行借選或進行發展組織的話那這會違反我們的法律要件那這部分我也提醒在交流過程當中我們公廟要注意的"},{"start":535.393,"end":546.811,"text":"那至於適不適合要在宮廟來囤放一些彈藥那這部分可能由國防部業管單位來對外說明比較恰當不過你們這個要弄清楚現在宮廟的人也是人心惶惶"},{"start":547.987,"end":571.242,"text":"因為現在大家都說臺灣的公廟都被中共滲透了那這些廟主住此不會不只會成為中共的滲透的這個突破點那恐怕也會在暫時成為第五縱隊啊結果我們的政府一邊懷疑公廟的一個忠誠度另外一邊又要公廟配合暫時的"},{"start":572.502,"end":595.034,"text":"純犯了帶藥,這難道不會是國安的風險?所以這個,局長,你們要化解這樣的一個餘力啊現在很多宮廟,你們簽訂了,又要懷疑它是不是又是抹紅然後滲透什麼樣怎麼樣的一個狀況也造成他們對這個事情上,對我們國安不滿"},{"start":605.998,"end":618.524,"text":"對,正常合法的宗教交流我們都尊重這是我們一開始講的基本原則這也是我們民主國家的價值但是宗教自由也不應該變成是中共對台統戰滲透的護身符所以我們會拿捏好這個分寸謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":619.206,"end":619.786,"text":"馬文君委員"}]}},{"id":"154556","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154556","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a31d2425c9a919d32ce876c6524d02f364ff7eb5b876a53c5ecd8931174c5d59a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:37:42 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09:51:27","影片長度":"00:13:45","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T09:37:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T09:51:27+08:00","duration":825,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":180,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時37分）謝謝主席，我們請國安局、陸委會、文化部。"],["主席：好，請國安局蔡局長、陸委會副主委還有文化部政次，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：早。自由時報報導的盯梢案到目前已經第13天了，全國人民都在看，當初登了這麼大一個版面到底是真是假？是不是假新聞，影響臺灣人民對於事情的判斷？","我要先問一件事情。先問一下我們國安局長好了，沈伯洋委員說有跟國安局通報，是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：他沒有說跟國安局通報。"],["徐委員巧芯：他有啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：他沒有說國安局。"],["徐委員巧芯：那他是跟誰通報？"],["蔡局長明彥：他是說國安單位。"],["徐委員巧芯：國安單位是怎樣？國安會？國安單位有哪一些？"],["蔡局長明彥：這要由沈委員去對外說明他怎麼通報，對國安局來講……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們國安局有沒有接到沈伯洋委員的通報？"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局不會針對我們的情訊來源對外說明，這是法律規定的。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為他講說他有找你們嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有講找我們。"],["徐委員巧芯：他講「國安單位」……"],["蔡局長明彥：對！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以沒有找國安局？"],["蔡局長明彥：有沒有找國安局或給哪個單位，應該由沈委員來對外說明，就國安局來講，我們的情訊來源不會對外說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為你說你不能對外說明，所以我假設你有接到這個陳情案件，後續國安局有沒有做任何處置、處理或調查？"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有辦法回答這個假設的問題，但我們已經有對外說明過……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我問的是，在這件事情被報導出來之後的兩個月內，國安局有沒有針對所謂的盯梢案做過任何調查？我這樣問。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，這個問題我們在上個禮拜的專案報告也有對外公開說明，也就是說，我們有接到相關的……"],["徐委員巧芯：什麼時候接到？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們之前就有接到。"],["徐委員巧芯：「之前」是多久之前？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個我們沒有辦法對外說明，因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為已經送到調查局立案偵辦了。另外……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們是在兩個月前就知道了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：另外，因為有媒體人把這個案子提告了，檢察官也在偵辦，所以案子……"],["徐委員巧芯：你不能什麼都推給檢察官嘛！我問你的是，如果你在兩個月前就知道了，那為什麼5月的時候還可以讓趙博離開臺灣？你們是在趙博離開臺灣之前知道、掌握情報了，還是在他離開以後？"],["蔡局長明彥：也就是我們有相關的資訊，因為國安局並沒有司法調查權，我們要是有這樣的資訊，必須要由司法機關去確認他到底有沒有相關的違法事實跟相關的事證，這要交給檢調單位去處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們瞭解這件事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：國安局接到資訊的時候，是在趙博離開臺灣以前還是離開臺灣以後？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一開始接到就已經通報到調查局來進行偵辦了。"],["徐委員巧芯：你還是沒有回答我的問題啊！以前還是以後？這差別很大耶！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這就由檢調單位來釐清。"],["徐委員巧芯：給檢調單位？所以你們是死都不說就對了！好，沒關係。接下來本席要請教陸委會還有文化部。這一篇新聞裡面寫到有關「資深媒體人」的報導，認為你們已經去向自由時報詢問「資深媒體人」是誰了嗎？有沒有向自由時報詢問他們報導裡面所稱呼的「資深媒體人」是哪一位呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：跟委員報告，因為我們陸委會跟文化部主管的部分就是邀請單位和被邀請的新華社記者，所以這兩個單位我們都有問……"],["徐委員巧芯：你都問了？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但是自由時報的部分，我們是另外詢問……"],["徐委員巧芯：另外詢問？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：確實有詢問。"],["徐委員巧芯：那資深媒體人是哪一位，它有告訴你嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：自由時報表示他們所報的新聞都有所本，而且經過合理的查證，基於新聞倫理，它不便透露消息來源……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以即便跟國安相關的事情，國安局長，當我們陸委會現在要調查，自由時報說它要保護它的新聞來源，可是它是一個國安問題的時候，我們也無法可管？"],["蔡局長明彥：不會，陸委會跟文化部進行的是行政調查，我剛剛跟委員報告，檢調在進行的是司法調查……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以陸委會副主委再回來，所以它不告訴你資深媒體人是誰，它只告訴你說有所本？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：它不會透露消息來源，我想任何一個媒體大概都會這樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問它指涉的新聞臺，來，我們看一下現在有哪些新聞臺，它指涉的新聞臺是哪一臺？就你們現在所瞭解的、所掌握的，已經13天了，不要告訴我這些新聞臺裡面你們沒有掌握自由時報所影射的是哪一家。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們當然知道。"],["徐委員巧芯：哪一家？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：就是東森新聞臺。"],["徐委員巧芯：東森新聞臺？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：他們指控的是東森新聞臺，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不是他們指控啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：他們的新聞所描述的是東森新聞臺裡面，有一名記者來自新華社，叫做趙博，混在他們的攝影棚裡面跟來賓說要講什麼，然後跟製作單位說要講什麼，它的意思是這樣，就你們現在的掌握，對吧？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們看一下，前面這張圖是我去找到的東森攝影棚，棚內就是長這樣，FD副控室在這裡，所有的包含主播、節目製作跟來賓在這裡，我個人上過這麼多次東森節目，包含被指控的那個，我個人從來沒有看過，所以我想要請問陸委會，現在自由時報所指控的趙博當時是站在哪裡？你們有沒有去調查這個案情？他是站在哪裡？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：跟委員報告，因為我們陸委會跟文化部所做的只能是行政調查。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以我們有向東森新聞臺詢問過。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，然後呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：他們給我的回答是記者在報導之前就有向他們查證，但是他們在接受記者查證的時候就已經否認。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，這我都知道啊！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我要問的是你們向自由時報……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以就陸委會跟文化部所做的行政調查，只能夠……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，但是你們有沒有問自由時報，他們在這些內容裡面寫到的、這個趙博所在的位置是在哪裡嘛？對不起，我要走過來，他可能是在來賓這邊、他可能是在主持人這邊、他可能在場外這邊、他可能在FD副控室這邊，你們今天既然要做行政調查，你們有沒有問過自由時報這個問題？這跟資深媒體人是誰沒有關係喔！我們只是想問這個趙博在自由時報的指控當中，他站在哪裡指揮？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員，我想我們都很清楚，媒體不會去回答我們這樣的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：因為它要保護新聞來源，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有新聞來源的問題！我們是問它所指控的、它裡面寫得很清楚喔！它說趙博會去跟來賓說要去……你看！這裡講什麼──對來賓名單指手畫腳，此人也在棚內，來，我們看一下棚內，棚內就長這樣，一個外面、一個裡面，哪一個是他們指涉的棚內？這個難道我們的陸委會不能去問嗎？文化部不能去問嗎？這跟新聞保護來源有什麼關係？它新聞裡面都寫成這樣了！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：如果司法跟檢調有在調查的話，我想他們會去釐清。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你行政調查呢？你們不是在做行政調查嗎？沒有問這個問題嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：行政調查的部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：你自己上過這麼多節目的人，你沒有問過這個問題嗎？你沒有想過這個問題嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：行政調查的部分，我們確實權限非常有限。"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒有問它這個問題，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，沒有問過。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你有沒有考慮再問它這個問題？我現在直接問你，你們有沒有考慮再去問一次自由時報當初寫的報導所謂的在棚內，是在這裡還是在這裡？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，這個案件的細節我想已經超出行政調查的權限……"],["徐委員巧芯：問這個也超出？我們再看一下前面的報導，我不能接受你的回答！它這裡寫什麼？此人在棚內，逐一介紹來賓是否照著腳本走，準備的CG有無照原來的計畫，跟來賓指手畫腳，向來賓轉達希望講的角度。","來！下一張，所以很簡單嘛！控制CG的在這裡，對不對？來賓在這裡，對不對？你有沒有問過它它當天新聞寫的報導，這個所謂的大陸人，我不管他是不是趙博，他在哪裡出現的？這難道不是行政調查可以問的問題嗎？這哪有涉及到什麼司法跟檢調呢？你都說你去問過它資深媒體人是誰，你都說你知道他們懷疑的叫做東森新聞，那為什麼東森新聞被懷疑的這個棚你沒有去問它趙博站在哪裡？可不可以補問？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這個部分我希望由司法單位來釐清。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼？你們在保護什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不，這個已經超出我們的調查範圍……"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼超出？超出在哪裡？超出在哪裡？你跟我說，超出在哪裡？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：就算我們去問，他們也不會回答。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你也要問啊！你不能說因為你假設人家不會回答，你就不問了啊！你是做行政調查的人，我可以假設對方不回答的問題，我就不問它嗎？就像你不是說你有問對方資深媒體人是誰，但它不講嗎！我今天問的問題很簡單，你們忘記問也就算了，你今天不問它這個問題，到底你今天是要保護自由時報還是要保護所有大眾看到了那個新聞說要我們知道是真的新聞還是假的新聞？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，您剛才提示的這些是有關案件的細節……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是細節，它自由時報……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：細節的部分我覺得由司法單位來釐清會比較好……"],["徐委員巧芯：抱歉！不是細節！它新聞就有寫了嘛！它新聞自己寫得這麼清楚，然後你們還不問？這就是很奇怪的一個疑點嘛？這就是很奇怪的一件事，到底在保護誰？","好，文化部，如果最後確定自由時報做假新聞，這已經是第13天了，你們政府有夠無能的，13天還調查不出這個報導是真的新聞還是假的新聞，請問如果最後確定是假新聞的話要如何處置？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，第一個就是我們沒有辦法回答假設性這是真新聞還是假新聞，第二……"],["徐委員巧芯：我說如果是假的話……"],["王次長時思：第二，我們會針對，如果這位記者真的做出了有危害國家安全的事情，我們會撤銷他的記者證，同時也會造成接下來新華社駐點記者的申請會……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是如果自由時報報的是假新聞，我們的文化部該如何處理，你剛剛完全沒有回答我的問題。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，我們恐怕沒有辦法在這裡指涉任何一家的媒體報導是假新聞……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果碰到任何一家媒體，不要講自由時報，任何一家媒體做出假新聞的時候，文化部要做什麼處理？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，文化部並沒有管理媒體，目前臺灣的媒體是屬於新聞自由的狀態……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以沒事？假新聞都沒事？"],["王次長時思：所以媒體要……"],["徐委員巧芯：NCC至少還會管一下，所以報紙沒關係？報紙可以造謠？"],["王次長時思：NCC是媒體的主管機關……"],["徐委員巧芯：還是NCC可以管？NCC可以管這個嗎？"],["王次長時思：委員，我想媒體應該比您更在意他們的新聞是真是假，如果是假的……"],["徐委員巧芯：是啊！不是，我告訴你，是東森新聞很在意他們被抹紅，寫假新聞的人可不在意啊！我要請問NCC可以管這個嗎？"],["王次長時思：NCC……"],["徐委員巧芯：NCC來！你可以管這個嗎？假新聞的話。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員好，我們只針對廣電三法規……"],["徐委員巧芯：對嘛！廣電三法，文化部再回來，我最後問你，現在我不講自由時報，如果有任何一家報紙寫了很誇張的假新聞，文化部怎麼辦？相關的法律依據在哪裡？要如何懲罰？"],["王次長時思：還是跟委員說明，目前臺灣是屬於言論自由的狀態……"],["徐委員巧芯：言論自由包含假新聞嗎！"],["王次長時思：所以它的新聞內容如果有傷害了……譬如傷害了國安，就會依照國安的方式……"],["徐委員巧芯：傷害了其它電視臺、傷害了民間企業呢？"],["王次長時思：所以要看它傷害的利益者是誰，按照它所傷害的損害利益去進行追訴跟賠償……"],["徐委員巧芯：那誰要負責追訴？要怎麼追訴？"],["王次長時思：看當事人所侵害的利益是誰的利益，就由誰來做利益……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以文化部會罰錢？罰則、相關的法律規定拿出來……"],["王次長時思：不會，文化部並不是媒體的主管機關，所以它要依據……"],["徐委員巧芯：那誰是？所以現在報紙寫了……假設報紙寫了假新聞，有什麼法條可以讓他們負責？"],["王次長時思：依據它所損害的利益來做權利主張的那一方，誰的利益被損害……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以就是東森自己去告嘛？假設這個是假新聞，你們不會做任何……"],["王次長時思：如果真的有人因為……因此造成利益損害的話，的確是由權利的當事人去……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以文化部沒有任處置的辦法嗎？"],["王次長時思：文化部不是媒體的主管機關。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們在這裡有任何的媒體主管機關嗎？都叫來這麼多人了，來！如果有的話回答一下，好不好？沒有嘛！所以這就是為什麼報紙開始寫假新聞的原因嘛！我的問題就問到這裡，但是我要向所有的國人朋友呼籲一件事情，NCC至少有針對內容在管制，它有一個SOP，不管我們認同或不認同，今天在報紙上面這麼明顯的、調查不到的、很多問題沒有問的，寫了假新聞的，在中華民國無法可管，這就是我覺得最劣質、最糟糕的情況，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，這也是國會為什麼需要有調查權的原因了。","接下來請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.24846875,"end":13.800968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.05409375,"end":14.087843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.087843750000001,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.509718750000001,"end":14.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.72909375,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.02909375,"end":39.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.06284375,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.11346875,"end":39.197843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.197843750000004,"end":39.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.68721875,"end":40.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.61534375,"end":42.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.032843750000005,"end":43.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.12971875,"end":45.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.09971875,"end":46.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.11659375,"end":47.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.196593750000005,"end":51.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.99784375,"end":54.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.55409375,"end":58.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.384718750000005,"end":61.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.96659375,"end":62.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.13096875,"end":63.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.68346875,"end":65.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.94471875,"end":72.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.17159375,"end":82.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.04784375,"end":85.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.21596875,"end":98.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.19284375000001,"end":114.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.70221875,"end":106.14096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.77784375,"end":108.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.32596875,"end":110.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.34659375000001,"end":116.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":114.27471875,"end":114.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.62909375000001,"end":115.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.65846875000001,"end":120.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.43409375,"end":129.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.33971875,"end":135.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.06534375,"end":131.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.06034375000002,"end":148.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.06284375,"end":155.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.19221875000002,"end":159.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.60096875000002,"end":163.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.97159375,"end":165.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.99659375000002,"end":170.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.63284375,"end":182.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01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謝謝主席徐委員早早 這個自由時報的盯梢案到目前已經第13天了全國人民都在看當初登了這麼大一個版面到底是真是假是不是假新聞影響台灣人民對於事情的判斷我要先問一件事情先問一下我們國安局長好了那個沈博洋委員說有跟國安局通報是嗎他沒有說跟國安局通報他有啊他沒有說國安局"},{"start":41.258,"end":65.072,"text":"那他是跟誰通報?他說國安單位。國安單位是怎樣?國安會?國安單位有哪一些?只要有省委員去對外說明,他怎麼通報?沒有,所以你們國安局有沒有接到沈博洋委員的通報?國安局不會針對我們的情緒來源對外說明,這是法律規定。因為他講說他有找你們嗎?沒有講找我們。他講國安單位,所以沒有找國安局?"},{"start":66.053,"end":83.643,"text":"有沒有找國安局或給哪個單位應該由省委員來對外說明那就國安局來講我們的情緒來源不會對外說明所以你在我假設喔因為你說你不能對外說明嘛我假設你有接到這個陳情案件之後國安局對後續有沒有任何的處置跟處理或調查沒有辦法回答這個假設的問題但"},{"start":85.425,"end":97.835,"text":"所以沒有我問的是在這件事情被報導出來之前兩個月內這件事情被報導出來的兩個月內國安局有沒有針對所謂的丁燒案做過任何的調查我這樣問好這個問題我們在"},{"start":100.797,"end":128.282,"text":"上個禮拜的專報也有對外公開說明也就是說我們有接到相關的一個情報案什麼時候接到我們之前就有接到之前是多之前那這個我們沒有辦法來對外說明因為已經在偵辦了已經送到調查局立案在偵辦所以你們是在兩個月前就知道的嗎另外也因為有媒體人把這個案子已經提到了所以檢察官也在偵辦你不能什麼都推給檢察官嗎我問你的是如果你今天在兩個月前就知道了那為什麼五月的時候還可以讓趙柏離開台灣"},{"start":130.983,"end":151.04,"text":"你們是在趙博離開台灣之前知道掌握情報的還是在他離開以後?也就是我們在有相關的資訊因為國安局並沒有司法調查權我們要是有這樣的資訊必須要由司法機關去確認他到底有沒有相關違法的事實跟相關的事證所以你們了解這件事情沒有國安局接到資訊的時候是在趙博離開台灣以前還是離開台灣以後?"},{"start":156.244,"end":167.087,"text":"我們一開始接到就已經通報到相關調查局來進行偵辦那你還是沒有回答我的問題啊以前還是以後這差別很大欸對那這就有檢調單位來釐清有檢調單位所以你們就不死都不說就對了好沒關係下一位我們陸委會這篇新聞裡面寫到的是說資深媒體人的報導請問你們已經去向還有文化部啦你們已經去向自由時報詢問資深媒體人是誰了嗎"},{"start":184.52,"end":190.227,"text":"有沒有向自由時報詢問他報導裡面所稱呼的資深媒體人是哪一位呢?"},{"start":191.19,"end":218.333,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部的主管主管的部分就是邀請單位然後和被邀請的新華社記者所以我這兩個單位我們都有問你都問了但是自由時報的部分我們是另外詢問另外詢問確實有詢問詢問那資深媒體人是哪一位他有告訴你嗎他們自由時報的表示是他們所報的新聞都有所本"},{"start":219.329,"end":237.163,"text":"而且經過合理的查證基於新聞倫理他不便透露消息來所以即便跟國安相關的事情國安局長當我們的現在的陸委會的調查當我們現在陸委會的調查自由時報說我要保護我的新聞來源可是它是一個國安問題的時候我們也無法可管"},{"start":238.143,"end":250.629,"text":"陸委會跟文化部進行的是行政調查那我剛剛跟委員檢調在進行的是司法調查所以陸委會主委再回復主委再回來所以他不告訴你資深媒體人是誰他只告訴你說有所本"},{"start":251.441,"end":273.585,"text":"他不會透露消息來源我想任何一個媒體大概都會這樣那請問他指涉的新聞台來我們看一下現在有哪些新聞台他指涉的新聞台是哪一台就你們現在所了解的掌握已經13天囉不要告訴我這些新聞台裡面你們沒有掌握自由時報所影射的是哪一家我們當然知道哪一家"},{"start":275.101,"end":299.759,"text":"就是東森新聞台東森新聞台你們指控他們指控的是東森新聞台嗎不是他們指控啦他們的新聞所描述的是東森新聞台裡面有一名記者來自新華社叫做趙博會在他們的攝影棚裡面跟來賓說你要講什麼然後跟製作單位說你要講什麼他的意思是這樣就你們現在的掌握對吧是好來我們看一下"},{"start":302.605,"end":307.246,"text":"這個前面一張圖這是我去找到的東森攝影棚棚內就是長這樣FD副控室在這裡然後呢所有的包含是主播、節目製作跟來賓在這裡我個人上過這麼多次的東森節目包含被指控的那個我個人從來沒有看過所以我想要請問陸委會跟陸委會喔"},{"start":325.372,"end":340.312,"text":"現在他們自由時報所指控的趙柏他當時是站在哪裡你們有沒有去調查這個案情他是站在哪裡跟委員報告因為我們陸委會跟文化部所做的只能是行政調查對所以我們有向東森新聞台詢問過"},{"start":343.517,"end":357.918,"text":"他們給我的回答是記者在報導之前就有向他們查證但是他們在接受記者查證的時候就已經否認是 這我都知道啊但是我要問的是你們向自由時報"},{"start":358.739,"end":362.681,"text":"我知道,但是你們有沒有問自由時報說他們所在這些內容裡面寫到的這個趙博所在的位置是在哪裡嗎他可能是在,對不起我要走過來"},{"start":375.185,"end":386.797,"text":"他可能是在來賓這邊他可能是在主持人這邊他可能在場外這邊他可能在FD副控室這邊你們今天既然要做行政調查你們有沒有問過自由時報這個問題這跟資深媒體人是誰沒有關係唷我們只是想問這個趙博他在自由時報的指控當中他站在哪裡指揮"},{"start":399.318,"end":417.867,"text":"委員我想我們都很清楚媒體他不會去回答我們這樣的問題為什麼因為他這個他保護新聞來源所以沒有新聞來源的問題我們是問他所指控的他裡面寫得很清楚喔他說趙博啊他會去跟來賓啊說要去你看喔這裡講什麼對來賓名單此手畫腳此人也在棚內來我們看一下棚內"},{"start":424.45,"end":425.151,"text":"那你行政調查呢?你們不是在做行政調查嗎?"},{"start":447.725,"end":452.529,"text":"沒有問這個問題嗎?你自己上過這麼多節目的人你沒有問過這個問題嗎?你沒有想過這個問題嗎?行政調查的部分我們確實權限非常有限你沒有問他這個問題對不對?沒有問過那你有沒有考慮再問他這個問題?我現在直接問你你有沒有考慮再去問一次自由時報你當初寫的報導所謂的在棚內是在這裡還是在這裡?"},{"start":474.743,"end":492.691,"text":"報告委員這個案件的細節我想這個已經超出行政調查的權限問這個也超出我們再看一下前面的報導我不能接受你的回答他這裡寫叫什麼此人在棚內然後呢逐一介紹來賓是否在找腳本走準備的CG有吳兆元來計畫跟來賓指手畫腳向來賓轉達希望講的角度來下一張"},{"start":501.328,"end":503.641,"text":"所以很簡單嘛 控制CG的在這裡嘛 對不對"},{"start":505.782,"end":515.247,"text":"來賓在這裡嘛對不對你有沒有問過他他當天新聞寫的報導這個所謂的大陸人我不管他是不是趙博他在哪裡出現的這難道不是行政調查可以問的問題嗎這哪有涉及到什麼司法跟檢調呢你都說你去問過他自身媒體人是誰你都說你知道他們懷疑的叫做東森新聞那為什麼東森新聞被懷疑的這個棚你沒有去問他這個趙博他站在哪裡"},{"start":535.897,"end":549.8,"text":"可不可以補問?這個部分我希望由司法單位來理解為什麼?你們在保護什麼?這個已經超出我們的調查範圍超出在哪裡?超出在哪裡?你跟我說,超出在哪裡?我們就算問,他們也不會回答"},{"start":551.92,"end":577.829,"text":"你不能說因為你假設人家不會回答你就不問了啊你是做行政調查的人我可以假設對方不回答的問題我就不問他嗎就像你不是說你有問對方資深媒體人是誰但他不講嗎我今天問的問題很簡單你們忘記問也就算了你今天不問他這個問題到底你今天是要保護自由時報還是要保護所有大眾看到了那個新聞之後要我們知道是真的新聞還是假的新聞"},{"start":579.173,"end":586.676,"text":"報告委員 您剛提示的這些是有關案件的細節不是細節 他自由時報 抱歉不是細節 他新聞就有寫了嘛他新聞自己寫得這麼清楚 然後你們還不問這就是很奇怪的一個疑點嘛這就是很奇怪的一件事 到底在保護誰好 文化部"},{"start":602.185,"end":611.635,"text":"如果最後確定自由時報做假新聞這已經是第13天了你們政府有夠無能的13天還調查不出這個報導是真的新聞還是假的新聞請問如果最後確定是假新聞的話如何處置跟委員說明第一個就是我們沒有辦法回答假設性這是真新聞還是假新聞我說如果是假的話"},{"start":625.523,"end":649.298,"text":"第二我們會針對如果這位記者真的做出了有危害國家安全的事情我們會撤銷他的記者證同時也會造成接下來新華社駐點的記者的申請我問的是如果自由時報報的是假新聞我們的文化部該如何處理你剛剛完全沒有回答我的問題跟委員說明我們恐怕沒有辦法在這裡指涉任何一家的媒體報導的是假新聞"},{"start":649.738,"end":657.447,"text":"如果碰到任何一家媒體不要講自由時報任何一家媒體做出假新聞的時候文化部要做什麼處理"},{"start":659.124,"end":670.593,"text":"跟委員說明,文化部並沒有管理媒體目前台灣的媒體是寫新聞自由的狀態所以NCC還至少會管一下所以報紙沒關係,報紙可以造謠還是NCC可以管?NCC可以管這個嗎?媒體應該比您更在意他們的新聞是真是假是啊,不是我告訴你喔是東森新聞很在意他們被抹紅喔寫假新聞的人可不在意啊我要問,那請問NCC可以管這個嗎?"},{"start":690.067,"end":712.573,"text":"NCC來NCC來你可以管這個嗎假新聞的話委員好我們只針對廣電三法規管對嘛廣電三法文化部再回來我最後問你現在是我不講自由時報如果有任何一家報紙寫了很誇張的假新聞文化部怎麼辦相關的法律依據在哪裡要如何懲罰"},{"start":714.104,"end":714.244,"text":"所以文化部會罰錢"},{"start":744.179,"end":746.66,"text":"對,文化部並不是媒體的主管機關那誰是?那所以現在報紙寫了假設報紙寫了假新聞有什麼法條可以讓他們負責?依據他所損害的利益來做權力的主張那一方"},{"start":761.486,"end":765.027,"text":"所以文化部沒有任何組織的辦法嗎?所以我們在這裡有任何的媒體主管機關嗎?都叫來這麼多人了,來如果有的話回答一下好不好?"},{"start":785.134,"end":814.026,"text":"沒有嘛!所以這就是為什麼報紙開始揭曉是假新聞的原因嘛我的問題就問到這裡但是我要向所有的國人朋友呼籲一件事情NCC它至少針對內容它有在管制它有一個SOP不管我們認同不認同今天在報紙上面這麼明顯的調查不到的很多問題沒有問的寫了假新聞的在中華民國無法可管這就是我覺得最劣質最糟糕的情況謝謝"},{"start":817.428,"end":821.976,"text":"這也是國會為什麼需要有調查權的原因了接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154555","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154555","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a40ba9e51b104253ace876c6524d02f364ff7eb5b876a53c551f247d58ac47c445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:27:41 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裡面沒有特別去強調軍事要塞那你覺得這樣對嗎"},{"start":81.796,"end":110.233,"text":"因為這主要是涉及到行政院跟國防部把軍事要塞跟關鍵基礎設施他有做特別不同的處理那沒有關係嘛第一個事情是這個問題其實我之前就問過了啦我們的軍事要塞竟然沒有列在關鍵基礎設施我也覺得非常的扯啦非常多的教授也對這個事情提出非常猛烈的批判但軍事要塞他的重要性絕對不會亞於關鍵基礎設施這個局長你認同嗎我同意同意嗎好"},{"start":111.494,"end":135.332,"text":"所以國安局之前在2022年的時候就說中國的自通訊軟體有嚴重的治安危險這個是在2022年的時候就已經跟全體國人講過了結果沒有想到我們國家拿納稅人30億去投資的綠能國家隊這不是普通的公司這家公司本來要掛啦虧了一百多億要掛啦"},{"start":141.563,"end":165.711,"text":"結果我們的民進黨政府拿納稅的30億本來是國發基金變成紓困基金紓困給這家公司以後從我們的國發基金進去到現在又虧了100多億這個是國發會要處理的問題但讓我詫異的事情是什麼我們的綠能國家隊是不是變成第五縱隊我為什麼會這樣講既然在裡面裝中國製的逆變器"},{"start":172.063,"end":198.688,"text":"這我很早以前就揭露也請他們去查結果查了以後我們的我也不曉得國防部真的有把國家安全放在心上嗎查下去以後回報的說對他裝的是逆變器在南洋指揮部南洋指揮部是軍事要塞我們的國軍弟兄在那邊大概有3000個人結果的後來發現還不是"},{"start":202.438,"end":211.113,"text":"只有逆變器中國製的路由器、工業電腦全部都放在這裡面從國安局的角度來講這件事嚴不嚴重"},{"start":212.878,"end":240.74,"text":"我想就那個綠能的發展是國家重要政策那政府的相關部會包括國防部在配合過程當中也應該要注意到一些資通訊產品安全的問題這顯然就沒注意嘛應該要注意嘛顯然沒注意嘛不過也跟委員說明一下我們知道的是在契約當中好像也有提到類似要進這個就是我今天要請教國安局的重點啦你們知道了這件事情了以後到目前為止採取了什麼行動"},{"start":241.661,"end":266.479,"text":"你們有沒有去了解裝了多久傳輸了多少data到目前為止有了解這件事嗎有 我們去了解相關的狀況那也跟國防部這邊有保持聯繫那我們會把我們了解以後的結果是什麼我們會提供給國防部來查處那對外的說明由主管機關國防部來對外說你們了解的結果有沒有涉及到國家機密方不方便給所有的委員知道你們查處的結果因為我很關心啊"},{"start":267.455,"end":275.227,"text":"那個不是裝在裡面被抓到拆下來就算了耶裝上去以後到被抓到為止中間這段時間發生了什麼事"},{"start":277.369,"end":304.978,"text":"你們國安局說這是非常嚴重的國安威脅那從抓上去以後到現在發生什麼事顯然國安局就有責任要查處嘛我應該沒說錯吧主責機關還是在國防部啦那國防部調查過程需要我們來提供相關的資訊資源沒有關係國安局到底有沒有去查處 有還是沒有剛你說有 現在聽起來好像是國防部的事對 沒有 主管的全責在國防部這個我理解 國安局有沒有去查處"},{"start":305.418,"end":308.079,"text":"我們的《滲透安全管理法》第5條明明就有訂嘛"},{"start":329.713,"end":349.728,"text":"制定各機關對危害國家滲透安全產品限制使用原則那裡面第三點說主管機關因機於國家安全等等等等然後呢要去提供你們核定的產品清單那核定的產品清單現在在哪裡你瞭解嗎這應該要由國防部來部相關的產品清單那個請一下陸委會的副主委好嗎"},{"start":361.836,"end":379.025,"text":"請副主委自動安全管理法它的主管機關叫行政院但我相信行政院自己不會做啦行政院一定是統合下面所有的部會把這個清單列出來嘛來請教一下副主委目前這個清單在哪裡"},{"start":380.563,"end":407.496,"text":"自動安全的主管機關應該是數位部所以這個是由數位部來統籌沒有關係我到時候我會去問數位部但你們就看自動安全管理法它的主管機關寫的是誰寫的是行政院所以我也呼籲一下行政院那個清單到底在哪裡讓大家知道一下但除了這個清單以外下一個問題"},{"start":408.576,"end":412.898,"text":"滋通安全管理法我們違反了以後來請教一下國安局局長我們有滋通安全管理法嘛滋通安全管理法有授權嘛授權去訂行政命令去做這個清單那我現在問題來了明明不能用卻用了他的法律效果是什麼"},{"start":431.09,"end":453.227,"text":"對,他有兩部分,因為部分是委員現在在問的法律的效果那另外一個就是沒有關係,你先告訴我法律效果就好了他的法律效果是什麼?因為我看了半天我找不到我們有這個法,也授權主管機關去列禁止清單那現在抓到了,然後我就在找法律效果啊抓到以後又怎樣?抓到以後沒有法律效果啊"},{"start":457.09,"end":461.171,"text":"來,我們來看你如果按照契約要去規範涉及到國家安全這麼嚴重的事情那這件事情本身就嚴重了我再說一次"},{"start":481.169,"end":506.654,"text":"涉及到國安威脅的事情如果我們在法律上是要透過契約去規範那這件事情是非常嚴重的事情怎麼會透過契約去處理有關於會涉及到國安威脅的事呢你違反了在法律上就應該要有法律效果啊結果搞了半天沒有法律效果沒有法律效果所以這些廠商沒藥沒金嘛"},{"start":508.322,"end":519.985,"text":"你訂你的規範你列你的清單我不要遵守又怎樣到時候被抓到了啊被抓到了就像我們國防部現在的態度一樣啊軟趴趴軟趴趴軟到快要跪下去啦被抓到怎麼辦拜託你把他換一換拜託你把他換一換"},{"start":531.229,"end":557.876,"text":"如果是這個樣子在面對有關於會對於國安造成極大威脅的中共滲透性產品的話這樣的管制啊是出現嚴重的問題啊竟然透過契約局長你贊不贊成我們尊重委員的意見這不是尊重我的意見啊你作為主管機關一個國防安全一個國家安全這麼嚴重的事情違反沒有法律效果"},{"start":558.922,"end":579.911,"text":"通過契約來規範這樣的規範模式 局長贊成嗎我想這部分可能還要行政院這邊再做相關進一步的評估行政院這邊還要再做評估啊沒有關係今天陸委會的主委也在旁邊了啦我相信副主委應該會把這個意見反映給行政院吧副主委把這個意見反映給行政院沒有問題吧可以齁好 謝謝"},{"start":587.514,"end":589.019,"text":"許巧欣委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154554","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154554","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256ac84a8e3802a39b80ce876c6524d02f364ff7eb5b876a53c5ad4183ff6f3bb7a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:16:41 - 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有請局長 謝謝請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 沈委員長好 局長好 那不好意思因為今天下面這個衝突比較多我穿得比較隨興一點那這個我知道今天很多人是想要來問我的部分但是我不太想要把這個質詢台變成一個造謠大會但是我想先從一個小案子開始那這個案子是在講這個高雄的這個兵馬俑"},{"start":32.343,"end":58.414,"text":"他其實有兩個層次 完全不同層次的問題第一個他是資安的疑慮我覺得這個其實還算清楚第二個就是因為看到新聞報導也有團體提出可能有這個統戰的疑慮他們提到這個宋慶林基金會因為他有前政協副主席在裡面他現在應該是理事長之類的 是主席我想問一下目前對這一件事情宋慶林基金會他在台灣舉辦活動的狀況國安局目前的掌握大概是什麼樣子"},{"start":58.874,"end":86.759,"text":"我想對於兩岸一些相關的一個交流只要是合法正常的交流我們大概都抱持尊重的一個態度那以委員提到這個案例他因為有治安的風險那我所知道的是在這個事情被揭露之後那主辦單位應該是科工館也有進行了一些相關查處的動作那第一時間我看他們也對外說明一旦相關的系統有涉及到中資的軟體的話那他們一定會在第一時間把它移除所以我看"},{"start":87.219,"end":108.064,"text":"相關的處置過程還算有注意到資安風險的控管好 謝謝局長因為我個人也認為這是兩件分開的事情他如果有資安的疑慮當然應該要處理但他是不是統戰其實應該是另外一件事因為他即使有這一個政協副主席前政協副主席的一個身份在但他到底在台灣是從事什麼活動這些活動有沒有違反反滲透法那又是另外一件事"},{"start":108.464,"end":125.346,"text":"現在看起來它是一個單純的交流但是問題就出在說如果這個交流以後繼續往下進行有人開始有一些利益的輸送等等之類的話那就可能是國安局必須要掌握的事但是就是藉由這一個我想再往下問就是這一個今天大家最關心的就是這一個"},{"start":126.166,"end":144.497,"text":"中媒記者丁燒這件事情這個局長一定很熟悉所以我完全可以跳過這個案例那我想問的事情是因為我在記者會的時候這是我記者會的逐字稿我那時候有說幾分證據講幾分話那我在這邊有發現一件很奇怪的事情就是因為長期我們研究過非常多類似的個案"},{"start":145.057,"end":170.276,"text":"那在這邊呢以往他會接觸媒體或政論節目我很少是遇到中國記者直接是作為接觸者他大部分是透過台灣人自己透過某一個台灣人他這個人是什麼職業我們不知道但再藉由這個去接觸這個媒體所以想問一下就是現在是直接中國記者進來這件事情根據自由時報的報導這一個對國安局來講是一個不常見的現象還是已經有掌握的現象"},{"start":171.652,"end":187.503,"text":"對於相關的中國在台注點記者的一些相關的一個活動我想應該都有經過陸委會相關或文化部相關的一個合訂才會進來那至於他們進來之後有沒有去"},{"start":188.604,"end":210.99,"text":"進行一些違反他們申請來台目的的一些動作那我們國安團隊都有在注意這是第一點跟委員做說明那第二部分是針對這個個案的部分因為我們在收獲相關的情資之後也有做一些資訊的比對那因為國安局並沒有司法調查權所以我們只能把有這樣的一個樣態來移送到調查局來進行徵處那調查局也立刻進行的所謂的立案的調查"},{"start":211.65,"end":224.096,"text":"那因為也有其他國內的媒體人針對這案子來提告新華社的記者那所以我所知道的是高檢署也已經開始立案在偵辦所以整個案子因為進入到司法的過程我們不適合做太多公開的說明或評論"},{"start":224.738,"end":250.581,"text":"好 這個我沒有問題因為我知道國民黨很關心我到底有通報調查單位所以這個真的是非常無聊的一件事但是我這邊想要問兩個問題第一個就是 陸委會的問題我待會問第一個問題是他在台灣因為記者要進來他一定需要有一個對口嘛他需要有人做介紹嘛就是要有人就是類似像擔保的一個角色他才能夠進來然後去做一些他在目的內的這個行動那在這個個案裡面有沒有掌握是誰邀請他進來"},{"start":251.847,"end":254.488,"text":"因為在這個案子裡面的重點是他有沒有做目的外行為嗎?"},{"start":281.32,"end":303.124,"text":"如果他是合法合規進入到台灣然後去做相關的事情這個其實沒有事但怕是他做了目的外的行為但能夠去掌握他做目的外行為的有可能有國安團隊可能有陸委會或者文化部另外一個就是中間人因為中間人畢竟是邀請他來的如果邀請他來的人他比較能夠掌握這個人現在在做什麼比如說他可能來到我"},{"start":303.404,"end":303.624,"text":"沈伯洋委員"},{"start":324.099,"end":345.974,"text":"中間要怎麼去抓到假設今天他中間換了變成他有中資或者說事後才發現這個事情那應該要怎麼辦那回到這個案例其實也是一樣的意思就是說如果我們能夠掌握到是誰邀請他來這一個人理論上應該是要讓我們知道他有沒有去做目的外行為那現在我想另外問陸委會的就是說那以陸委會或者文化部現在的量能來講"},{"start":346.835,"end":347.095,"text":"沈委員您好"},{"start":363.973,"end":387.364,"text":"一般陸媒在進來台灣以後他大概都是三個月一遷那因為但是陸委會跟不管是陸委會也好或是文化部也好我們沒有這樣的量能去掌握記者每一天的動態這是不可能的那在法令上面我們也不會去這樣做"},{"start":389.417,"end":408.955,"text":"好那所以呢在如果說他沒有辦法長期知道說這個人沒有做目的外行為的話那有可能第一個我們是要增加量能這是我在那個那場記者會後面的建議那另外一個我能夠想到的就是中間人的回報機制因為以往的像我在質詢這個像退服會啊什麼等等之類的時候也是因為知道他們中間人很多做旅行社"},{"start":409.415,"end":426.313,"text":"那有哪些人做旅行社他可能比較有可能去做相關的一些統戰行為的時候這些人掌握了你能夠回報那陸委會也才能夠得知得知之後才能夠做裁處啊或者說任何的處分啊等等之類的那我一直很希望說這一個機制能夠被建立起來因為我認為是重要的"},{"start":426.733,"end":441.513,"text":"那最後我還想另外一個問題就是說在這個新聞的隔一天而已報紙就刊出來說這是所謂的國安單位有說滲透台灣的這五個不同的手法第一個我還蠻熟悉的就是租用攝影棚那這個2345是目前已經有掌握到確實的個案嗎?"},{"start":444.242,"end":460.741,"text":"因為這是媒體報導轉述國安單位那因為不是來自本局的諮詢我沒有辦法做更進一步的澄清所以這個來源因為他才寫是來自於國安單位所以到底為什麼會有這一個我們並不是那麼的了解而且他也沒有包含到我們現在因為可以看到第二個是駐台人員直接對"},{"start":461.301,"end":463.123,"text":"媒體下指導期這個就比較符合剛剛前面討論到的微信群組這個以前有發生過這個在那個17、18、19的時候那個時候有發生過那4跟5這個部分可能是比較像是交際型的"},{"start":476.653,"end":504.651,"text":"那所以呢這個是我剛剛講的齁這是我們整理的各式各樣違反反滲透法的一些個案中間都有所謂的中間人齁所以很多人都一直常常在問齁說統戰的證據在哪裡齁那大家可以仔細看這全部都是啦OK嗎這全部都是統戰的證據齁而且這些呢很多都是已經被起訴的或者已經被羈押的齁這些全部都是齁案子其實非常的多所以呢有些人會說到底統戰的證據在哪裡齁我覺得我對這個當然是有點疑惑然後這一個呢就是我們以前在民間自己調查的案子齁"},{"start":505.091,"end":505.271,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":523.257,"end":547.592,"text":"第一個可能透明化第二個就像剛剛講的如果我們知道對口這個新華社記者的單位是誰他如果能夠定期幫忙回報說在這一個月我們他目的內行為是做什麼然後呢他有沒有去做其他的行為如果有做其他的行為他有一定的責任那監管單位也有一定的責任的話那這種事情就不容易發生嘛那當然我們是假設這是事實但到底調查單位會查到這個什麼樣的結果這個我們還是不明瞭啦"},{"start":548.252,"end":575.784,"text":"但是在這邊還是還是要說就是說我覺得從源頭從中間人來打擊我認為是一個比較好的方案那問題是這一個法令要怎麼設計我目前來講我只有設計在跟立委跟關鍵基礎設施相關的所以也很希望我們能夠在休會期的時候跟國安局跟陸委會再度討論這方面的法案要怎麼設計看能不能在9月之後我們提出一些針對中間人的一些做法而且跟反滲透法是有不同的"},{"start":576.184,"end":604.143,"text":"這部分我跟委員說明一下因為國安局這邊依照國家情報工作法反滲透法跟國安法我們會掌握一些可能中共在台灣滲透的一個樣態那在這些樣態之下只要有一些相關的事證來證明案況蠻明顯的有滲透的事實的話我們就會移送司法單位來偵辦那這也是為什麼從去年到現在我們跟檢調單位已經一起偵辦國安偵防的案件有84件其中有39件都已經起訴而且有些還在偵辦當中後續也許還會再起訴"},{"start":606.104,"end":628.407,"text":"所以跟委員說明的是我們一直希望能堅持一個比較完整全面的一個國安偵訪的一個體系避免中共滲透謝謝委員的舉行謝謝這方面我是了解就是說以現有的法律不管是國安無法還是反滲透法但我擔心的就是譬如說像新華社這一類的案子我們先不要管它有沒有發生假設今天有類似像這樣的案子它是一個灰色地帶因為畢竟按照兩岸條例現在的規定其實就是請他走而已"},{"start":628.647,"end":628.767,"text":"黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"154553","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154553","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256aed8a58d763b1d16bce876c6524d02f364ff7eb5b876a53c5eb4615479df0829c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"09:05:37 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09:16:32","影片長度":"00:10:55","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-08","start_time":"2024-07-08T09:05:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-08T09:16:32+08:00","duration":655,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":44,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（9時5分）你好，我們請國安局局長。"],["主席：請國安局局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長好。局長，這一兩個禮拜我們聽到在野黨的立法委員說有國軍營區使用華為的路由器，有沒有聽到類似這樣的情資？"],["蔡局長明彥：對！知道。"],["陳委員冠廷：有這樣的情資嘛，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對！"],["陳委員冠廷：那有沒有掌握到這樣的路由器影響範圍多大？有沒有可能──或者已經被滲透的可能性？相關的資訊是不是有被掌控？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。事實上，對於國軍營區相關的資安問題，我們都非常重視，也透過我們的協調會報請國軍系統、特別是政戰局跟軍安總隊來進行相關可能使用陸製通訊產品的查察。以委員剛剛所提到的案子，基本上來講在相關的合約過程當中，應該都會排除陸製的相關產品，可能這個案子要特別注意的是在履約過程當中，以及在驗收的過程當中，是不是有什麼地方可以再策進？因為這部分國防部已經有對外做一些說明，我們尊重國防部應處的基本原則。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。有相關的情資，我希望可以趕快給國防及外交委員會的委員。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，是！"],["陳委員冠廷：因為這個事件，我想也不是單一事件。第二個部分，最近國軍行車紀錄器的攝影設備，有沒有聽到相關的情資，也使用中國製？"],["蔡局長明彥：對！我們也注意到這個問題，事實上，對於行車紀錄器使用到陸製的產品，確實是應該要事先禁絕的。我剛剛在進入會場之前，也跟媒體朋友說明，就本局來講，我們已經有查察過相關的狀況，我們局裡面並沒有使用陸製的行車紀錄器，包括外車進入到我們營區，我們是要求外車都必須要關閉行車紀錄器，即使他的車輛因為是所謂的電動車，沒有辦法關閉行車紀錄器，我們也都會事前通報，請他更換車輛再到我們營區，或是沒有更換車輛的，到營區門口就必須下車走進來，所以我們對營區的資安管理還算到位。"],["陳委員冠廷：您說是營區，因為我現在聽到包含三軍總醫院、國防大學、海軍艦隊都有使用華為或者是相關中國製的路由器，所以我想之後相關的定義，還是希望局長能夠分享給其他的單位，不管是國防部還是相關的單位。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，對！剛剛跟委員說明的是，我們在這部分已經有做一些滿完整的規劃，我們會把我們的經驗跟其他國軍的單位分享。"],["陳委員冠廷：剛才局長您提到營區嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對！"],["陳委員冠廷：那我想請問國防院是不是營區？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員指的是國防安全研究院，對！它應該還是在國防部整體的管轄範圍。"],["陳委員冠廷：還是營區嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對！"],["陳委員冠廷：我們最近有聽到這一個營區裡面，有來自中國滙豐銀行也是政協的高層進入營區，進入營區的時候錯置他的護照號碼，這樣相關的資訊有沒有掌握？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，對個案的部分，國防部已經有做一些查處了，我想我們尊重國防部查處的狀況，對於這一些相關的類案，我們也會加強透過剛剛跟委員提到的，不管是政戰局或軍安總隊在國軍系統增加一些宣導的機會，避免這樣的狀況將來再度發生。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長，因為我剛才提到這幾個案件，一件接著一件，每一件他們不管是採購中國的產品，或者是中國政協的人士直接進入營區，這一些理論上都應該要事先查核、事先排除，但是我們現在聽起來就國防院的說法，好像還有前官員說這又沒有涉及機敏事項，所以只要他們轉述沒有涉及機敏事項，就可以進去、就可以錯置護照號碼嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：以我們局裡面來講，我們一般大概都是從嚴來查核進入營區的管制，那這部分……"],["陳委員冠廷：我還是強調這不是任何一個人的問題，我想從營區到不管是哪一個單位，既然有這個制度，我們就把它遵守。"],["蔡局長明彥：是！應該是這樣。"],["陳委員冠廷：那也不要是因為哪一個研究員怎麼樣，我們不針對哪一個研究員、不針對哪一個人，我們針對的是這件事情，如果要查核就查核，不能由主觀認定這涉不涉及機敏事項。之前國防部長有提到應該就涉密的內容，而不是說他官階的大小，所以如果可以排除掉，那就排除掉沒有關係，但如果已經有這個制度，那就確實要執行，比方說這個路由器，我覺得就是必須要澈底執行；如果是一些非機敏的設備，現在中國製的設備也很多種，但是跟資訊相關的，你們有相關的情資，請局長務必要分享給其他國防安全相關的部門。"],["蔡局長明彥：對！這是制度面的問題，我們來加強。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個要麻煩。包含矽谷，他們都在加大員工的審查。過去我在日商企業的時候，只是面板產業，還不是半導體產業，當我們進入之前，首先要看我們的身分證，看完身分證之後，我也沒有涉密啊！我只是一個sales啊！為什麼要如此？進入對他們來講智慧財產的核心就是核心，所以他們不管你，包含電腦事先都要先放在管理室，過去我們在商界的時候、在日商工作的時候就是最基本，你進入他們的廠，廠區喔！報車號，然後你要把你身分證提出來，然後你要把你的電腦、手機全部拿出去讓他們在那邊做檢核，甚至就不能帶進去，我不明白說如果只是過去……那個時候是7年前、8年前，只是在面板產業就用這樣子的方式來去做核實，那我們現在在國防部或者是相關的營區，特別是國防醫院96%的預算都是國防部提供的，我認為還是有相關的機敏性，當然它是文職人員比較多，我們可以理解，但是見微知著嘛！其他的這些比較重要的營區，我希望未來還是有統一的一套系統……"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分我們會非常注意，就國安局來講，我們自己的營區管理是用最嚴格的標準，有任何的廠商進入到營區都有專人陪同，然後任何的個資查察也都不能夠讓可能可疑的人士或特殊涉入背景的人士進入到我們的營區，相關經驗我們會跟國防部分享，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。接下來，局長，我想請教一下，中共最近增加國安法令的赴中風險，局長，你認為現在國人赴中旅遊危不危險？應該是這麼講，我們是要先預判說我們是不是跟政界有關係，沒關係了就可以去嗎？還是其實這個危險程度，您是怎麼去定義的？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，因為在上一屆的立法院專案報告，我們有特別去警示，當時是因為7月1日有中國相關的反間諜法案的推動，以及今年又有所謂的保守國家秘密法的提出，我們還是認為到對岸去應該要來警示我們國人可能相關的旅遊或經商入境的風險。也跟委員報告一下，從去年到現在，大概已經有15位國人在進入到陸港澳的地區遭到中共的拘留審判，另外有51位國人在入境過程當中遭到中共的留置詢查，我們覺得案例有增加的趨勢，對於整個暴露風險的提高，我想我們尊重權責單位陸委會在這部分把等級升為橙色、橘色的等級。事實上，國際社會包括歐美國家還有最近的應該是兩個禮拜前的韓國，也都有相關提高赴陸旅遊的警示，我想這是國際社會大家都普遍關切的議題。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝，謝謝局長，謝謝這樣子的解釋。其實，我在6月6日的時候，這個是另外一個跟最開始的第一題是有關聯的，我有直接質詢到說關於英國倫敦的醫院遭駭，其實最近應該也是這一、兩天，三軍總醫院因為不明的原因故障，所以改人工的方式，相關的情資有沒有掌握到？有沒有是由外部進來的？還是只是單純的內部故障？有沒有聽到相關的情資？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這個案子在第一時間就有進行通報，我們得到的報告內容是排除外力侵害的可能性，可能是內部系統管理的問題，不過我們還是會繼續來查察實際的原因到底是什麼。"],["陳委員冠廷：內部管理的問題，那剛好是一個很好的機會來去審視。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，當然，因為它是屬於我們的關鍵基礎設施……"],["陳委員冠廷：關鍵基礎設施，因為這一個在英國倫敦的醫院，我們剛剛提到，6月6日我在質詢的時候就已經有提過了，確實是從外部的因素，現在既然是內部的話，那就剛好可以做好準備，我們看到第一時間，在總醫院他們是開始採用人工的方式去做掛號登記，我的意思是說，包含我們的一些重要關鍵基礎設施的話，如果遇到駭客或者是外部侵入的時候，內部的演練是不是要先有一個SOP做好？不知道國安局有沒有提供指引讓這一些相關的部門能夠做……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這部分主要是透過行政院的國土安全辦的系統，透過我們的國土安全協調會報來進行跨部會的協調，因為國安局也是協調會報的成員，我們會把剛剛委員特別提醒的樣態，在會報當中提醒各部會要繼續來加強相關機制還有演練的規劃。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長，因為其實聽局長剛才的說法，如果我們全部都落實的話，基本上之前我們剛剛提到的這些採購上的問題就都不會發生。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，很多真的是在執行面的問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：對。"],["蔡局長明彥：也老實跟委員報告。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我們同時要做一些大膽的嘗試，可是其實最基礎的東西都要做好，因為其實就像你剛剛提到的關鍵基礎設施，關鍵基礎設施的保護完善，我們現在說很多要用AI的方式、用加入攝影機或者是部署相關的警力，這些其實在最前端之前，如果我們首先確保這些關鍵基礎設施不使用中國的產品，或者是相關的做法都已經先做好，不要說只有規則而沒有辦法去執行，到後端再去執行的話，其實前端的訊息可能就已經流失了，所以這部分我還是希望局長在跨部會協調的時候嚴正的跟這些執行的部門，特別是國防部相關的部門，直接跟他們講清楚。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們來提醒，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":6.98346875},{"speaker":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蔡委員早市長好 市長這一兩個禮拜我們聽到其實是在野黨的立法委員有說有國軍營區使用華為的路由器有沒有聽到類似這樣的情詞對 知道有這樣的情詞嘛 對不對對那有沒有掌握到這樣子的路由器的影響範圍多大有沒有可能或者已經被滲透的可能性就是說相關的資訊是不是有被這一個掌控"},{"start":39.532,"end":55.186,"text":"對,事實上對於國軍營區相關的資安的一個問題我們都非常重視那也透過我們的協調匯報請國軍的系統特別是政戰局跟軍安總隊來進行相關可能使用錄製的一些通訊產品的一個查查那以委員剛剛所提到的案子來講"},{"start":56.167,"end":73.16,"text":"基本上來講在相關的合約過程當中應該都會排除錄製的相關的產品那可能這個案子要特別注意的是不是在履約過程當中以及在驗收的過程當中是不是有什麼地方可以再測盡那這部分因為國防部已經有對外做一些說明那我們尊重國防部應處的一些基本的原則"},{"start":73.933,"end":87.9,"text":"好,因為相關的情資的話我希望可以趕快給我們的國防外交委員會的委員,因為這個事件我想也不是單一事件。那第二個部分,最近的國軍行程進入區的攝影設備有沒有聽到相關的情資,也使用中國字。"},{"start":88.647,"end":100.876,"text":"對,我們也注意到這個問題,事實上對於這個行車記錄器使用到錄製的產品確實是應該要事先禁絕的。我剛剛在進入會場之前也跟媒體的朋友說明,就本局來講,我們已經有查查過相關的一個狀況,那我們局裡面並沒有使用錄製的行車記錄器。"},{"start":105.64,"end":126.65,"text":"那包括外車進入到我們營區,我們是要求外車都必須要關閉行車記錄器。那即使他的車輛是因為有所謂的這種電動車,沒有辦法關閉行車記錄器,我們也都會事前通報,請他更換車輛再到我們營區。那或是沒有更換車輛,到了營區門口就必須下車走進來。所以我們的部分的營區的這些治安的管理還算到位。"},{"start":127.403,"end":153.895,"text":"因為我現在聽到了營區您說是營區那現在聽到說包含三軍總醫院、國防大學、海軍艦隊都有使用華為或者是相關中國製的路由器所以我想之後相關的定義還是希望局長能夠分享給其他的不管是國防部還是相關的這一個部分對因為剛剛各位說明是我們在這部分已經有做一些蠻完整的規劃那我們會把我們的經驗跟其他國軍的單位來分享"},{"start":154.395,"end":181.876,"text":"剛才局長您提到營區嘛對營區那我想請問喔國防院是不是營區委員指的是國防安全研究院對他應該還是在國防部整體的還是營區嘛對那我們最近有聽到說這一個營區裡面有來自中國那惠豐銀行那也是政協的這一個高層進入營區那進入營區的時候他錯置他的護照號碼這樣相關的資訊有沒有掌握"},{"start":182.376,"end":209.295,"text":"對 因為這部分 個案的部分國防部已經有做一些查處了啦那我想我們尊重國防部查處的狀況那對於這些相關的內案我們也會來加強透過剛剛跟委員提到的不管是政戰局或軍安總隊在國軍的系統來增加一些宣導的一個機會因為局長因為我剛才提到這幾個案件一件接著一件那每一件他們都是不管是採購中國的這個產品或者是"},{"start":209.955,"end":230.492,"text":"中國政協的人是直接進入營區這一些都理論上都應該要事先查核事先排除啊但是我們現在聽起來就國防院的說法好像是還有前官員說這又沒有涉及機敏事項所以只要他們說轉述沒有涉及機敏事項那就可以進去就可以錯知護照號碼嗎"},{"start":231.85,"end":257.433,"text":"以我們局面來講我們大概一般都是從嚴來查核這一方面的營區進入的一個管制我還是強調就是說這不是任何一個人的問題我想從營區到不管是哪一個單位那既然有這個制度我們就把它遵守那也不要就是說特別針對是因為哪一個研究員怎樣我們不針對哪一個研究員不針對哪一個人我們針對的是這件事情那如果要查核就查核"},{"start":258.354,"end":269.967,"text":"不能說這個主觀認定這涉不涉及機敏事項但是我們對之前國防部長有提到說應該就涉密的內容而不是說他的關節的大小所以如果"},{"start":271.032,"end":271.092,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":289.8,"end":314.406,"text":"務必我們這個有相關的情節務必要來分享給其他的這些國防安全相關的部門對這制度面的問題對我們來加強這個要麻煩因為這個包含矽谷他們都在加大員工的審查我是希望我們的國防單位過去我在日商在企業的時候我們去各個不管只是面板產業還不是半導體產業當我們進入之前首先要看我們的身份證"},{"start":315.387,"end":335.285,"text":"看完身份證之後 我也沒有要涉密啊 為什麼要涉密啊進入他們對他們來講智慧的這個財產的核心 就是核心所以他們不管你 包含電腦事先都要先這個放在那個管理室過去我們在商界的時候 商業界的時候在做這個在日商工作的時候 就是最基本的你進入他們的廠 廠區喔報車號"},{"start":338.291,"end":359.653,"text":"然後你要把你的身份證提出來然後你要把你的電腦手機全部拿出去讓他們在那邊做檢核甚至就不能帶進去我不明白說如果只是這個過去那個時候是7年前8年前只是在面板產業就用這樣子的方式來去做核實那我們現在在國防部或者是相關的營區特別是國防院96%的預算"},{"start":361.935,"end":385.218,"text":"這是國防部提供的那我認為還是有相關的機敏性那當然他是文職人員比較多我們可以理解啦但是建委之助嘛其他的這些比較重要的營區我希望說未來還是有統一的一套系統這部分我們會非常的來注意啦那就管局來講我們自己的營區管理是用最嚴格的標準有任何的廠商進入到營區都有專人陪同然後任何的各支"},{"start":385.538,"end":386.379,"text":"中共最近增加國安法令的附中風險"},{"start":401.894,"end":416.233,"text":"局長你認為現在國人腹中旅遊危不危險應該是這麼講我們是要先預判說我們是不是跟政界有關係那沒關係了就可以去嗎還是其實這個危險程度你是怎麼去定義的"},{"start":417.014,"end":444.208,"text":"對,因為在上一屆的立法院的專案報告我們有特別去警示因為當時是因為7月1號有中國的那個相關的反間諜法的一個法案的一個推動那以及今年又有所謂的保守國家秘密法的提出那我們還是認為說到對岸去應該要來警示我們國人可能相關的一個旅遊或經商入境的一個風險那也跟委員報告一下從去年到現在大概已經有15位的國人"},{"start":444.668,"end":444.888,"text":"﹚陳冠廷"},{"start":463.524,"end":467.706,"text":"其實我在6月6號的時候這個是另外一個跟最開始的第一題是有關聯的我有直接質詢到說關於英國倫敦的這個醫院遭害"},{"start":491.334,"end":517.567,"text":"那其實最近應該也是這一兩天三軍總運院因為不明的原因去故障所以改人工的方式那相關的情資有沒有掌握到有沒有是由外部進來的還是只是單純的內部的故障有沒有聽到相關的情資這案子在第一時間就有進行通報那我們得到的報告的內容是排除外力侵害的可能性可能是內部系統管理的問題不過我們還是會繼續來查查實際的原因到底是什麼"},{"start":517.967,"end":545.342,"text":"內部管理問題那剛好是一個很好的機會來去審視因為它是屬於我們的關鍵基礎設施關鍵基礎設施因為這一個在英國的這個倫敦的醫院我們剛剛提到6月6號我在質詢的時候就已經有提過了那就確實是從外部的因素那現在既然是內部的話那就剛好是一個做好準備我們看到第一時間在這個總醫院他們是開始採用人工的方式來去做掛號登記那我的意思是說包含我們的一些重要的關鍵基礎設施的話如果遇到"},{"start":546.442,"end":553.724,"text":"這部分主要是透過行政院的國土安全辦的系統那透過我們的國土安全協調匯報來進行跨部會的協調那因為國安局也是協調匯報的成員那我們會把剛委員特別提醒的樣態在匯報當中提醒各部會要繼續的來加強相關機制還有演練的規劃"},{"start":576.29,"end":589.34,"text":"謝謝局長 因為其實聽局長剛才的說法那如果我們全部都落實的話那基本上之前我們剛剛提到的採購上的問題那就都不會發生了對 很多真的是在執行面的問題對 老師跟委員報告"},{"start":591.061,"end":619.081,"text":"所以我們同時要做一些大膽的嘗試可是其實最基礎的東西都要做好因為其實就像我們你剛剛提到的關鍵基礎設施那關鍵基礎設施的保護完善那我們現在說很多要用AI的方式用加入這個攝影機或者是部署相關的警力這些其實在最前端之前如果我們首先先確保我們這些關鍵基礎設施的使用"},{"start":619.821,"end":619.961,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":650.779,"end":653.859,"text":"接下來請沈博洋委員上臺"}]}},{"id":"154566","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154566","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a65d88b38097dd027528e157563c83e5d123a2add11c74db04f59cd66632241b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:21:58 - 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那我簡單來說目前我們看到在去年的11月當時的行政院秘書長就說那時候還叫做吹哨者保護法各界意見分歧因此現在整合經過這段時間我們看到了大概有這幾個演變"},{"start":55.213,"end":55.353,"text":"公聽會：鍾佳濱：鍾佳濱"},{"start":78.695,"end":78.915,"text":"公聽委員：鍾佳濱"},{"start":98.228,"end":121.167,"text":"好 那麼另外在特許行業的部分銀行因為是涉及到大眾資金 銀行法45條之一它也說要求要建立內部控制及集合制度這也是以內控為主另外涉及到大眾食品安全相關的食品業者在食安法也有第13條這裡面又具體的指出對於檢舉人身份資料要嚴守秘密甚至要給予獎勵這是既有的法當中的一些相關規定我們再往下看"},{"start":121.647,"end":122.228,"text":"銀行應先建立內部控制制度"},{"start":139.927,"end":156.334,"text":"作為內部機核之依據﹐使金融危機在發生初期﹐及得掌握基先事實上他還是強調的﹐內部應該有一個制度﹐先從內部去進行必要的調查所以我們看到﹐最後的結果大概會怎麼樣走呢﹐就往下看"},{"start":157.855,"end":175.244,"text":"根據銀行業的內控集合辦法第3條之2這當中就有提到檢舉人要發現有疑似違法的情形他可以匿名檢舉但是會有內部的專責部門先來調查有無違司如果有就再由相關的主管機關比如金管會開始調查"},{"start":176.445,"end":176.585,"text":"公聽委員：鍾佳濱"},{"start":193.243,"end":193.463,"text":"中小企業佔全體企業98%以上"},{"start":212.825,"end":237.587,"text":"那如果一個5人的公司20人的公司那麼通常遇到這種情況會有什麼情況呢舉例來講曾經就發生過有離職員工去烏龍爆料照說如果你對於你所處的企業有些弊端損失到公共的利益你可以向政府部門檢舉但是我們實務上看到的可能就直接跟媒體爆料透過報導那麼引起相關單位的注意那開始進行調查"},{"start":238.368,"end":238.588,"text":"公聽委員：鍾佳濱"},{"start":257.501,"end":276.569,"text":"那基本上呢我們在另外在調查中受理揭弊的單位的保密義務範圍可能包括了監察院 政風 檢警調 其他部門都有一個適用不公開的原則對於揭弊者的身份都應該要保守但是對於被揭弊者以及揭弊的弊案內容比如說目前所謂的偵查不分開事實上也是相對的在案情未明朗之前也避免因為偵查的過程當中造成被偵查者的一個名譽的損失所以這種情況之下"},{"start":285.293,"end":285.333,"text":"主席"},{"start":305.461,"end":330.513,"text":"那種情況之下有沒有保護的必要未來在法案當中對於私人企業的部分應該做兩面性的權衡最後我們的結論希望說揭弊者保護法對於公部門較有意義但是私部門的揭弊需要考慮到產業的特性公司的規模以及內控的程序另外要思考到如何去處理惡意的揭弊未來我們希望在揭弊者保護法當中能夠聽取各級的意見希望未來推出的法案能夠比較完善以上 謝謝好 謝謝鍾昭偉"}]}},{"id":"154557","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154557","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a48c57c7f28567ce5528e157563c83e5d4ff7eb5b876a53c529ef337da9650dc45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:44:56 - 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拖延的藉口拖延的藉口每次問到永遠都在演繹我只問一個最簡單的問題跳票2500多天了還不夠久嗎台灣還有多少個2500多天被迫害的吹哨者還有多少個2500多天"},{"start":362.899,"end":386.11,"text":"這不是法律設計要怎麼設計的問題我報告過了我們的學者專家我們律師界的先進我們的法官都很認真過去這十幾年來累積的論述漢牛衝動相關可以研議的資料非常非常的多甚至2016到2020年那一屆我們的法務部還有自己提草案出來"},{"start":387.31,"end":409.779,"text":"結果到現在2024年我們的法務部我們的行政院草案在哪裡不見蹤影每一次問永遠就在拖永遠都在混社會上有很多不同的意見我們會持續的研議持續的探討持續的研議持續的探討我不希望下一次"},{"start":411.24,"end":440.235,"text":"立法院的司法法制委員會繼續在討論這個問題的時候是10年以後10年以後我們依然在研議依然在探討到底要是公私合併還是要公私分開吹哨者被迫害的人在角落裡面哭泣前我大財團大金控的老闆在那邊笑哈哈我簡單舉個最簡單的例子就好了我前一陣子揭發了我前一陣子揭發了"},{"start":441.636,"end":470.674,"text":"我們上市公司還是我們綠能國家隊拿納稅的30億結果幹什麼事情在我們的軍事要塞裡面放了會危害國家安全會危害國家安全不是我說的我們國安局說的會危害國家安全的中國支通訊產品我為什麼會知道這件事有人檢舉嘛有人吹哨嘛他不吹哨"},{"start":471.977,"end":493.853,"text":"他不吹哨社會怎麼知道這件事大家怎麼知道這件事情我們在設計這個機制的時候要在這一個上市公司裡面的人他們如何自處第一個跟老闆報告老闆你這樣做不對老闆說你明天回家吃自己這個是我們絕大多數人在職場的經驗第二個"},{"start":503.564,"end":507.006,"text":"第二個他要怎麼做跟主管機關具名前取公司很快就知道這個人是誰知道了又怎麼樣他被追殺了又怎麼樣"},{"start":517.608,"end":541.193,"text":"我們這個社會我們這個社會到底要他如何自處總要給他一個行為準則嘛什麼時候你可以揭弊什麼時候你不可以揭弊什麼時候你揭弊會被保護什麼時候你揭弊會用泄密罪來追溯你當然不是全部都保護啊但我們也不可以放任"},{"start":543.144,"end":559.386,"text":"這些人永遠被追殺那這正是需要揭弊者保護法把法律要件講清楚把法律效果講清楚這個是我覺得我們這一屆國會責無旁貸的任務一定要完成那我也利用這個機會非常感謝昭偉"},{"start":560.968,"end":561.128,"text":"謝謝國常委員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}