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諮詢事項 增列第三案提案黨團國民黨黨團來含撤回予以刪除依國民黨黨團無人中線提案增列第7至18案暫緩立案及與均照議程草案及增列報告事項通過對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢二 請願案件依含送本院相關委員會審查共議案二依請願法第4條細數應提起訴訟事項未便受理含附請願人共期案三依立法院資權行使法"},{"start":2022.549,"end":2041.786,"text":"第65條 罕轉權責機關處理淨富並複資請願人公安案 宣短筆好 謝謝 請問就上次的會議議事錄各位有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有沒有 好 那議事錄確定請宣讀報告事項及執行事項"},{"start":2043.086,"end":2059.936,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期第22次會議一事準草案 時間 中華民國143年7月12日 星期五 十六 日 星期二 上午九時至下午六時 地點本院一場 包含十項一宣渡本院第11屆第1會期 第21次會議一事錄23文料相等據 聲音障礙者權益保障法"},{"start":2060.356,"end":2075.611,"text":"交稅為福利及衛生環境委員審查 四至十一委員會許定等一句 職業安全衛生法 職業服務法 性別平等工作法 勞工退休金條例 勞工職業災害保險及保護法 保護基準法 中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法 交稅為福利及衛生環境委員審查"},{"start":2076.992,"end":2102.17,"text":"國家公務法教內政委員審查 十二至十三委員陣 上面的引據 保險法教財政委員審查 保健保險條例教授及福利及衛生環境委員審查 四四委員羅廷威的引據 高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例教教及文化委員審查 十五委員陣永康的引據 國家安全戰略法教外交及國防委員審查 十六委員讓會員的引據 政治投資信託及顧問法教財政委員審查 十七至十八委員吳思耀的引據 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內政委員審查28委員"},{"start":2140.12,"end":2168.032,"text":"邱志偉等局新機器移民法教經濟逆增社會福利基本環境三萬元審查二九至五十一委員吳思耀已撤回青年基本法委員陳秀榜已撤回學校法人機器所屬私立學校教學院推修輔學抵制自檢條例老年農民福利津貼暫行條例委員王定宇已撤回老年農民福利津貼暫行條例委員邱毅宜已撤回癌症防治法委員范玲米撤回數位新聞發展與民族人性法青年基本法學校法人機器所屬"},{"start":2168.992,"end":2169.352,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2189.133,"end":2207.192,"text":"應花稅法委員吳秉蔚你撤回公職人選舉報名法委員蘇巧慧你撤回癌症防治法委員陳冠廷你撤回學校法人及其所屬私立學校教職人退休輔助離職資遣條例委員蔡允穎你撤回國民年金法運動產業方案條例委員陳培韻你撤回青年基本法你請願會統一撤回51至432行政院內政部"},{"start":2211.076,"end":2234.878,"text":"科委會﹚人民會﹚中選會﹚僑委會﹚外交部﹚經濟部﹚民意部﹚財政部﹚金管會﹚主義總署﹚交易部﹚文化部﹚國科會﹚核安會﹚交通部﹚書發部﹚通傳會﹚司法院﹚考試院﹚勞動部﹚衛福部﹚環境部﹚海委會﹚陸委會﹚國防部﹚國發會﹚退府會﹚工程會等含送書面資料交相關委員會433社會福利及衛生環境委員會含為預行任命令審查期限請查證"},{"start":2235.698,"end":2259.986,"text":"國民黨黨團第一陣列一至三委員副坤祺等一句公職員選舉罷免法國民黨黨團一句消防法委員鄭天才等一句公職員選舉罷免法交內政委員審查四委員歐小林等一句憲法訴訟法交司法計法作業審查民進黨黨團第一陣列五委員吳思耀等一句青年基本法交交易局文化委員審查六至十六委員黎晶等委員黃潔等委員蔡玉等委員郭育晴等委員張煌武等委員張玲等"},{"start":2261.607,"end":2282.585,"text":"委員李柏毅委員吳秉瑞委員陳培鈺委員沈柏英分別履歷據臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條約交易中委員審查17至19行政院行情審議自動安全管理法交交通委員審查學生輔導法交交易及文化委員審查函宋國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名單請同意案交交通交易及文化兩委員審查"},{"start":2284.107,"end":2306.009,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提議整理20-26臺灣民眾黨黨團20-21臺灣民眾黨黨團已具核實反應器設施管制法交教育及文化委員審查融資公司法交財政委員審查主任事項宣讀完畢好謝謝那我們現在請登記發言委員發言第一位請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":2311.612,"end":2323.759,"text":"謝謝主席還有我們在場的所有的委員我們針對這個第11屆第1會期第22次的會議議程報告的一個事項 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家通訊傳播委員會檢任視察黃財政數位發展部資源管理司副司長曾文芳人事行政總署人力處專門委員曾永芳"},{"start":2431.823,"end":2438.425,"text":"主計總署公務預算處專門委員吳明修基金預算處專門委員戴群芳"},{"start":2450.394,"end":2466.746,"text":"在進入黨團協商之前我們現在是不是請新增提案的提案人委員范雲委員還有委員吳佩奕先做提案說明很抱歉這兩位委員都沒到所以我們提案說明就先暫不處理"},{"start":2467.887,"end":2470.748,"text":"二、行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》案例"},{"start":2483.713,"end":2511.272,"text":"有關本日的協商會議本席在7月2日主持第一次黨團協商會議我們確立是以行政院提案條文的順序為本法案協商的討論基礎然後再配合對照審查會審查通過或保留的條文依序來討論最後全案採用協商條文的立法體例提報院會進行二、三讀程序"},{"start":2514.013,"end":2540.032,"text":"另外本席在七月二號當時黨團協商最後才是請內政部針對行政院提案的第二條第一項第五款的末端我們刪除經許可在台灣地區定居未滿三年以及第二項的條文的文字不知道內政部對上述的修法意見或回去討論的結果怎麼樣我們現在是不是先請內政部部長先行說明一下"},{"start":2541.315,"end":2561.585,"text":"我們看到范雲委員已經來到了現場我們待會再請您做提案說明好嗎我們先請內政部部長針對上次的協商第二條的後段的條文來做說明謝謝好謝謝昭偉謝謝各位委員今天關心新住民權益保障法那今天我們的這個協商根據我們上一次"},{"start":2562.005,"end":2580.52,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":2580.64,"end":2599.329,"text":"包括麥委員或者是羅委員都有提到說新住民他的身份或者他的定義應該是永久的所以我們討論之後不要用這個年限或者是說取得國民身份證之後的三年來做這樣子的一個定義反而造成不管在文化上面或者是說在未來的適用上面有一些困擾"},{"start":2600.209,"end":2625.356,"text":"我們希望增加第19條的條文是寫著我唸一下只有兩句以在台定居之新住民逗號其權利義務應優先適用有戶籍國民之規定也就是說讓它是永久適用那它的立法理由就是說新住民成為國人之後除了原有新住民相關的輔助及服務措施之外"},{"start":2625.956,"end":2636.74,"text":"也可以享有國人相關的權利義務明定新住民成為國人其權利義務優先適用國人身份以避免其雙重身份造成機關的資源重置"},{"start":2646.004,"end":2672.711,"text":"好 謝謝部長我們現在手上已經拿到了這個部分請委員們參照這個部分等一下我想再請問一下部長那雖然您同意第二條的第五款的那個三年拿掉然後前項第一款那個拿掉嗎當然你講錯了你說第四款事實上是第一款所以在第二條裡面的第五款裡面的這個未滿三年您可以拿掉是嗎是"},{"start":2673.371,"end":2675.893,"text":"經許可在台灣地區定居未滿三年那個拿掉,文字拿掉是嗎?"},{"start":2698.183,"end":2698.383,"text":"委員范雲"},{"start":2717.15,"end":2720.154,"text":"首先今天是我們關於新住民專法的協商我想我自己的版本我比較支持是一個權益保障法而不是基本法剛剛可能有些委員都已經講過了"},{"start":2734.473,"end":2748.442,"text":"我想我們這個法的用意是非常好因為原名客家跟新住民他們的族群分布語言文化都不同所以在訂這個法的時候我覺得我們應該要尊重新住民的意見"},{"start":2749.002,"end":2749.362,"text":"憲政院函請審議"},{"start":2768.708,"end":2797.692,"text":"如果我們急著三讀通過可能這個機會就會喪失這是我首先要表達的意見我比較傾向於支持是一個權益保障法而不是一個基本法這個程序上我希望能夠有更深入的討論不要急著三讀再來我的版本有些地方跟院版不一樣我想提一下院版是放在內政部下的三級機關當然對一個新住民而言我們希望他能夠層級更高一點所以我跟"},{"start":2798.332,"end":2818.346,"text":"羅美玲委員的版本是一樣的都是希望是直屬行政院的二級機關另外在院版中沒有的部分我新增一個政府應該建立統一的通譯人員培訓及職業的制度這部分院版並沒有羅美玲的委員的版本有這部分我覺得相當的重要我的版本中也有這個部分以上還是希望說"},{"start":2824.43,"end":2825.171,"text":"供更深入討論"},{"start":2843.786,"end":2869.871,"text":"好,非常謝謝范園委員的提案說明我們繼續往下面走好,我們請問一下在場的委員那個第二條的部分剛剛行政院的那個第19條刪除第二條的第五款後段未滿三年令增訂第19條已在台定居的新住民他的權利義務應該優先適用有戶籍國民的規定好,請問一下在場的委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2872.162,"end":2877.287,"text":"第二條我們上次是保留我們談了好久這第五款裡面大家對於年限有意見所以現在行政院版本提了刪除"},{"start":2895.586,"end":2907.646,"text":"第二條第五款的後段,把未滿三年那個拿掉,然後他們另外增訂了第19條,那19條文就在我們的螢幕上面也copy給各位委員,請看一下,謝謝。"},{"start":2918.407,"end":2936.001,"text":"第二條的第五款,那個三年拿掉我們是予以肯定了,因為本來就是年限我們是覺得說這個真的是非常的不妥,現在這個部分拿掉了,那現在是另增訂了第19條,"},{"start":2937.862,"end":2960.667,"text":"並且還有上一次我們討論的就是那個前項第一款及第二款經許可居留的外國人已未兼具我國國籍者違憲那個行政院是要讓他保留下來的他們只是在第二條的第五款後面未滿三年拿掉而已提醒一下羅美玲委員謝謝所以你們的第二條那個"},{"start":2962.47,"end":2979.616,"text":"前項第1款及第2款那個部分你們同意還是繼續留下來嗎來我們請那個議事人員看一下有沒有看到第5款下面那個前項有沒有第5款裡面下面的那一項"},{"start":2981.298,"end":3003.926,"text":"來我們把郵標第二項郵標給委員看一下前項第二款經許可看到嗎第五款下面的第二項不是在下面在下面那個前項第二款對大家看一下前項第二款經許可拘留這外國人來寫錯了第一款及第二款"},{"start":3008.571,"end":3032.852,"text":"來前項第一款及第二款好謝謝醫生人員好大家看一下現在內政部的意思是說這個部分前項這第二項還是繼續留下來因為我記得上一次我們討論了非常久的部分就是第五款的未滿三年是可以拿掉接著下來第二項這個你們是希望繼續留下來請"},{"start":3043.436,"end":3061.983,"text":"主席這個保留 這個他們保留嘛 這個比較是比較沒有爭議 他是以為兼具我國國籍者為限嘛 對不對 這個我是覺得這個是還OK的所以要問你們的意見 是不是 這部 他保留這個是OK 我們那時最大的癥結點是在三年那個部分"},{"start":3062.363,"end":3067.127,"text":"主席主席提醒你們所以羅美玲認為本來兼具我國國籍她就是台灣人請問一下民眾黨的麥玉珍委員"},{"start":3090.677,"end":3117.803,"text":"我是覺得是要拿掉啦就是我上次有講嘛就是第一款跟第二款的就是第四條的這個部分就是要拿掉啦因為跟第一款第二款的是跟前面的是一樣啊你前面一二你說可以後面你這邊又說就是不行又加上就是三年已經是要拿掉嘛對不對"},{"start":3119.268,"end":3143.787,"text":"對,他們三年拿掉了,然後增訂第19條但是他們這一項還是要保留第二項還是要保留那個文字我堅持就是我們上次有修正動議的那個版本你們的修正動議版本在哪裡,大家看一下"},{"start":3149.98,"end":3178.058,"text":"應該有啊?你們手上應該有這個0702的協商會議來看一下民眾黨黨團的第二條的修正動議一、二、三、四款它應該一、二、三、四款都跟行政院版本都一樣對嗎?不一樣嗎?第四款來看"},{"start":3179.235,"end":3196.628,"text":"依《台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例》第17條第4項規定,經專案許可在台灣地區長期居留或依《香港澳門關係條例》經許可在台灣地區居留,且其居留事由是符合法條規定。"},{"start":3202.81,"end":3226.299,"text":"包括前面的這個新住民的定義其實你看完全都不一樣其實不是仿這個例了不是仿這個行政院的版本好對不起對不起現在我再修正一下那個民眾黨黨團請問一下他的修正動議版本大家手上有沒有這個這個請問一下在場的委員你們看到了嗎對"},{"start":3229.844,"end":3230.064,"text":"民眾黨團第二條修正動議"},{"start":3240.404,"end":3266.892,"text":"好 所以這樣子好不好大家看一下我們也不要花那麼多的時間因為我們上次已經討論很久了那如果大家還有意見的話我們第二條就保留下來行政院版本還有民眾黨團的修正動議版本那那個羅美玲報告召委我可不可以稍微說明一下就是最後的決定當然是遵照委員會上面的決議那我可不可以說明一下好嗎我們為什麼不會想好 謝謝"},{"start":3268.312,"end":3297.172,"text":"跟麥委員報告一下上次民眾黨黨團所提的修正動議我們回去也是有做一下研商我們的回應大概有兩個方向第一個就是外國人兼具我國國籍者或者是外國人兼具居住在台灣地區設有戶籍的國民或者是外國人有台灣地區無戶籍國民身份因為兩者都具有我國國民的身份享有國民待遇"},{"start":3297.952,"end":3313.567,"text":"比較不像是本法所需要特別規範加以保護的新住民基於資源不重複的理念我們認為說剛剛所說的第二項明定的第一項第一款或第二款的外國人以未兼具我國國籍者為限"},{"start":3314.913,"end":3333.143,"text":"二、我國國民所生的子女按照國籍法的規定,如果都具有我們國籍的話,我們現在的統計其實就是所謂的僑胞,大概是兩千萬到三千萬人,人數其實沒有辦法做一個明確的規範或是明確的去找得到。"},{"start":3333.863,"end":3348.834,"text":"那如果外國人兼具我國國籍本來就可以按照我們入出國的移民規定或者是無戶籍國民身份申請在台居留跟定居社籍實務上那有一些男性是無戶籍的國民的話他們會選擇持外國護照來台居留"},{"start":3352.376,"end":3353.777,"text":"請問一下在場的委員有沒有意見剛剛部長的說明"},{"start":3382.165,"end":3410.008,"text":"而羅委員他是說是這樣子啦還有我們的部長是說這樣但是事實上只要我們有我們台灣的國籍國籍者他就可以辦戶籍啊啊這麼說為兼具我國國籍者為限這樣變成我們有國籍就是台灣人一樣啊現在我們是有國籍啊"},{"start":3410.529,"end":3437.155,"text":"所以我不知道是這個邏輯在哪裡有國籍我們只要像說有很多新二代他們本來就出生在台灣但是他們在國外生活他們是有國籍沒有戶籍但是他只要回來台灣六個月他就可以辦戶籍只要有國籍就可以辦戶籍不是說所以變成說有國籍就不在這個"},{"start":3438.755,"end":3464.983,"text":"就是違憲,這樣跟我們就是有國籍是嗎?對啊,這裡有寫違憲啊。我跟...啊?哪裡寫違憲?對啊,有啊。我跟...沒有沒有。不是那個違憲。限制的憲。不是憲法的憲。我們最近都有人投婚,那個麥委員我跟你報告一下齁。中文不太好,抱歉。"},{"start":3465.123,"end":3490.462,"text":"沒關係沒關係你沒有講錯是我弄錯了那個是這樣子我剛有提到我國國民所生的子女按照國籍法的規定都具有我國的國籍但是在海外的國民的世代包括現在僑居不管你是在這個亞洲非洲甚至是美國總共的人數可能會超過兩三千萬人那我們這個法律所訂定的叫做新住民權益保障法"},{"start":3490.762,"end":3518.081,"text":"也就是我們訂了八項的照顧服務設施啦或者是說就業啦、就養啦等等這些包括什麼婚姻諮商的服務他們這些人並不一定因為他們幾乎在海外都生存的條件或是說生活的條件有時候比台灣更好那麼回到台灣來他如果按照他的規按照我們現在新住民權益保障法又要給他這樣子的照顧服務找工作然後可以納入一些保險等等這些的話其實會"},{"start":3520.722,"end":3547.514,"text":"整個的發散到我們對於新住民現有的新住民定義上面的權益保障所以我們不認為說現在這個時段裡面可以把它列進去會是一個好的方法那這樣子的話呢可能這樣子太發散了就是我們現在就是我們原先跟各位報告這個新住民權益保障法包括在台灣出生的這個新住民大概大概100萬人左右那你未來如果加入這個我國國民所生的這個部分的話呢會變成是"},{"start":3548.755,"end":3548.775,"text":"函審議員"},{"start":3563.482,"end":3585.58,"text":"謝謝部長的充分說明,我想蔓越真委員這樣子好不好蔓越真委員說明完了之後,我們這一條已經是在上一次討論很久了是不是我們待會就保留,我們繼續往下走,好,請蔓越真委員,謝謝好,謝謝部長,部長剛才也有說到嘛如果他在國外很富有、又好人,回來要用這裡做什麼,對不對"},{"start":3587.742,"end":3589.223,"text":"二、行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》案"},{"start":3606.775,"end":3630.287,"text":"有需要的人還有我們要設這個部會也是說不是有身份證人沒有身份證他有國籍他回來台灣他也是我們的國民所以我們希望的是說我們要照顧的拿我們的台灣的國民的錢納稅錢去照顧的不是沒有台灣的身份的人"},{"start":3631.349,"end":3636.993,"text":"因為要居住台灣他要成為台灣人事先要適應要先照顧但是有適應後他們有身份證了我們也是讓他在這個部會可以去發揮才是有後續的發展我們的定義是希望的未來是這樣不是說他來台灣他有身份證了他就是沒有要照顧也沒有需要這個龐大我們是要有定義後"},{"start":3661.09,"end":3684.877,"text":"要有機制管理有制度的來去審查不是每一個人進來就是說我是新住民就可以應用這樣子的一個經費我們昨天都很說明你們也認同今天又把這個事情還是一樣這樣的話我們就照我們的主席我們主席的召委來做決定 謝謝"},{"start":3690.546,"end":3719.464,"text":"好 謝謝大家好 羅美玲委員謝謝朝委因為民進黨有提出了這第二條修正動議的第五款我想請因為現場就有麥委員在場民眾黨的代表那我想請問像第一款到第四款規定之大陸地區規定之外國人或無國籍人士是什麼樣的意思因為我們幾個委員剛才看了一下就覺得不是很理解這句話的意思這句話可以解釋一下嗎什麼叫第一款到第四款規定之"},{"start":3719.724,"end":3721.607,"text":"大陸地區規定之外國人"},{"start":3732.827,"end":3739.153,"text":"第二條,我們就按照行政院版本修正後的條文,還有民眾黨團所提的修正動議,我們併案來保留,好嗎?謝謝來,我們繼續來看第三條"},{"start":3760.311,"end":3763.875,"text":"第三條是主管機關第三條是民眾黨團張智倫委員保障對象新住民身份"},{"start":3778.24,"end":3804.495,"text":"他已經納入行政院的第三項了第三條我們審查會通過的版本我們就不予採納我們現在保留了第三條其實他都已經不管是民眾黨團或者是徐欣盈委員的修正動物都已經在行政院提案的第三條裡面了第二條的第三項裡面所以我們就"},{"start":3805.115,"end":3827.684,"text":"在審查會通過的版本裏面不予產納我們現在來繼續往下走第三條我們看一下行政院的版本謝謝請內政部是不是來說明一下第三條請問主席是不是3、4、5一起講還是"},{"start":3837.237,"end":3856.767,"text":"主席各位委員好我想第三條我們是明定本法的主管機關為內政部這是法規主管機關至於本法所定的各項相關事項因為涉及到各目的事業主管機關的法律的業務執掌所以我們是明定由各目的事業主管機關來辦理"},{"start":3861.144,"end":3873.315,"text":"第四條,政府應設專責單位或至專人,推動辦理新住民相關事宜。政府指的可以是中央,也包含地方。"},{"start":3882.563,"end":3891.345,"text":"第五條是行政院為了要研議、協調以及推動本法相關事務應該要召開新住民事務協調匯報目前這個協調匯報也是我們從104年一直到現在常設的一個協調匯報所以這三條應該就是將來推動這次這部辦法主要的組織架構跟分工以上報告"},{"start":3913.977,"end":3917.765,"text":"請在場的委員有沒有你們的版本提案的說明?"},{"start":3923.651,"end":3948.466,"text":"民眾黨團大概是說在中央市新住民委員會然後在直轄市縣市政府就應該也有單一窗口在第三條的部分第四條的部分這個民眾黨團是說在行政院要設立新住民委員會要統籌一些事情然後這個張智倫委員也是希望能夠"},{"start":3949.446,"end":3953.454,"text":"自新住民事務委統籌規劃辦理所以不管是國民黨團還有民眾黨團"},{"start":3958.752,"end":3985.519,"text":"的意見大概都是這個部分然後我們看一下羅美玲委員的第三條希望是在行政院要設置新住民專責機關所以這個部分跟這個第四條行政院的第四條是有一點類似只是在第三條的時候可能不太一樣第三條這個行政院的版本是主管接官室內政部然後民眾黨團"},{"start":3987.299,"end":4011.427,"text":"主管機關是在新住民委員會那因為在這個版本裡面我們一開始可能在後續也會討論到這個部分所以是不是大家提出一下你們的看法如果大家看法還是不一致的話我們就把它保留下來好不好好我們請張宏祿委員謝謝主席我覺得現在討論第三條可能沒辦法討論"},{"start":4013.047,"end":4030.721,"text":"因為我們的是基本法還是權益保障法?如果是基本法,內政部,我想請問一下內政部你可以是主管機關嗎?所以我們現在在討論他們一講,就不會是他們了嗎?"},{"start":4035.66,"end":4043.03,"text":"對不對?所以你的條名、你的名稱都還沒確定,你要去訂主管機關我覺得是不可能訂出來的啦。"},{"start":4045.682,"end":4073.157,"text":"其實昭緯是非常贊同張鴻路委員說的因為我們從第一條包括就是新住民權益保障法這個名稱沒有定下來後面的條文其實都會連動我們是走不下去的所以呢昭緯剛剛就會說因為想要讓大家提出一些你們的看法那鴻路委員所提的昭緯非常的認同就是因為他會連動的所以既然我們前面被保留這個"},{"start":4074.818,"end":4094.309,"text":"第3條、第4條、第5條我們把它保留下來好不好好謝謝大家好我們先來看第6條好第6條的部分應該比較沒有什麼爭議的部分好不好我們現在是不是請內政部也來說明一下"},{"start":4098.564,"end":4099.605,"text":"羅美玲委員"},{"start":4120.598,"end":4134.798,"text":"因為我們上一次是按照您的第四條只是把您的第四條通過的那您的文字跟現在我們行政院提案的第六條剛剛部長已經說明了不知道您接受嗎?謝謝"},{"start":4135.879,"end":4136.099,"text":"刘雨昕議員"},{"start":4158.671,"end":4177.601,"text":"其他會員有沒有意見?沒有意見的話第六條我們就按照行政院提案的條文來通過第七條第七條原則上也是上次通過的條文那原則上我們這次也是著作文字修正有關制定的部分我們也是同步修正為定定以上"},{"start":4184.466,"end":4209.84,"text":"第七條我們也按照行政院提案的條文通過來第八條審查會通過的版本我們修正的是第七條只是把條文對照一下大家看一下文字有沒有意見行政院提案的第八條然後上次審查會通過的版本我們修正通過的是第七條"},{"start":4228.612,"end":4246.529,"text":"好來我們看一下把條文印在上面大家看一下我們上次修正通過的第七條為了推動新住民跟他子女還有家庭照顧輔導服務、人力資源培訓以及發展無障礙語言環境"},{"start":4247.21,"end":4270.686,"text":"建構多元文化的社會,有效整合政府以及民間的資源,特設置新住民發展基金。這個是有一個基金。新住民發展,下面一項是新住民發展基金收支保管,還有運用辦法由行政院訂支。然後行政院提案的版本第八條看一下,為了推動新住民跟他的子女愛家庭的,其實大概是差不多。"},{"start":4272.789,"end":4291.612,"text":"羅美玲委員謝謝主席那個第八條其實我有提了一個修正動議其實這上面應該是第八條不是第七條你們寫錯了針對這個新住民法案基金的這個委員的組成我有提了一個修正動議就是要納入具新住民或新住民子女身份之代表"},{"start":4295.286,"end":4296.407,"text":"審查會通過的版本是第七條"},{"start":4316.148,"end":4317.949,"text":"行政院函請審議《新住民權益保障法草案》案"},{"start":4344.572,"end":4348.035,"text":"新住民發展基金管理會委員組成必須納入具有新住民或新住民子女身份的代表"},{"start":4367.618,"end":4394.418,"text":"翻原委員謝謝待會再請部長您來說明我想這個部分我很支持羅美玲委員的修正的意見因為這個基金管理他就涉及到這個資源是要放在新住民身上那他把這個新住民或新住民子女身份的代表納入我覺得是一個最基本的那他還沒有到納入百分之多那個比重那我覺得納入是非常好的以上謝謝"},{"start":4400.349,"end":4419.275,"text":"羅美玲委員的修正動議其實我們原來就有但是如果把他名文放進去我們也不反對但是我建議可不可以修一個字那個須就把它弄掉就好了就納入因為子須跟另外那個須大家都會爭議半天跟著就是這兩個字都不要就是納入就好"},{"start":4424.684,"end":4451.35,"text":"請問其他委員有沒有意見沒有意見的話我們就按照羅美玲委員的修正動議抱歉你那個第七條我們還是寫第八條好不好按照行政院對不起紅綠委員我沒有意見但是羅美玲委員的修正版本那個無語言障礙環境那個逗點無障礙語言環境逗點那個我覺得要一起修正"},{"start":4454.642,"end":4477.37,"text":"大家看了嗎?但是那個頓號變成逗點就是那個頓號的部分都把它跟行政院的那個逗點是一樣的請問一下這個羅美玲委員提案的委員可以嗎?好大家看一下最後的文字來請我們議事人員秀一下在螢幕上"},{"start":4485.985,"end":4487.306,"text":"鬥點鬥點鬥點才對啦鬥點鬥點才對鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點鬥點"},{"start":4512.754,"end":4538.816,"text":"好,OK,那召委在這邊再跟大家整合一下我們按照螢幕上的條文按照這個第八條也就是納入了這個羅美玲委員修正動議跟行政院提案的條文把它整合在我們現在修正的條文上面如果沒有意見的話我們就按照修正的文字來通過第八條,謝謝"},{"start":4541.51,"end":4568.744,"text":"好接下來我們處理一下第九條不好意思我們剛剛有發現到說那個羅美玲委員提的是新住民發展基金管理會那到底是管理委員會還是管理會是不是我們查一下然後我們再來看好不好因為這個文字上的修正其實不牽涉到任何語意上面的改變好嗎"},{"start":4570.947,"end":4572.207,"text":"新住民發展基金管理委員會"},{"start":4587.365,"end":4608.75,"text":"這樣子的名稱是比較完整的而且跟其他法條的文字是一樣的現在是管理會不好意思弄錯了現在是管理會不好意思因為兩個不同的版本所以哪一個會比較現在是完整的叫管理會都叫管理委員會嗎確認一下"},{"start":4615.316,"end":4615.596,"text":"最後確定"},{"start":4636.232,"end":4659.748,"text":"現在是叫管理會對不對我們希望不要發生衝突啦我們還是叫管理會啦抱歉把那個委員管理會好新住民發展基金管理會是以現在的名稱文字我們就按照現在螢幕上的文字一樣紅綠委員還有什麼意見嗎"},{"start":4665.45,"end":4673.956,"text":"謝謝大家及時廣義及時修正跟確定大家最後看一下第八條螢幕上列的文字"},{"start":4698.251,"end":4710.157,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4722.368,"end":4732.172,"text":"政府應該在國家考試設立新住民事務相關的類科以因應新住民公務之需求請問在場委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":4748.734,"end":4754.226,"text":"第十條我們看一下我們上一次有審查會通過版本"},{"start":4768.362,"end":4769.423,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4783.894,"end":4798.665,"text":"然後台灣民眾黨團委員張智倫等18人、國民黨黨團都有提案還有邱鎮軍委員27人所以我們現在就不予採納我們就以行政院提案的條文通過"},{"start":4799.706,"end":4803.448,"text":"蘇巧慧第10條、王美惠委員第9條、羅美玲委員第6條、邱鎮軍委員第4條、徐欣盈修正動議第6條"},{"start":4818.214,"end":4845.759,"text":"我們這個程序還是要走完抱歉來第九條那個蘇巧慧委員22人的第九條、台灣民眾黨團的第八條、委員張智倫等18人、華有國民黨團的第八條以及邱鎮軍委員27人的第九條我們也不予產納我們就按照行政院所提案的版本就按照行政院的第九條通過嗎好不好對好謝謝"},{"start":4848.219,"end":4869.834,"text":"第十條行政院提案的條文看一下然後上次我們有委員審查會通過的版本修正通過是第十一條之一那我們還是一樣按照行政院所提案的條文的第十條我們來討論一下謝謝部長你要不要先說明一下第十條"},{"start":4873.032,"end":4889.858,"text":"第十條的部分我們好像都沒有改變就是它的服務措施大概只有幾個字譬如說對就是我從頭講好了政府應該辦理生活適應輔導然後醫療生育保健就業權益保障提升教育文化"},{"start":4890.778,"end":4897.283,"text":"協助子女教養、人身安全保護、健全法令制度及落實觀念宣導等相關措施。"},{"start":4914.494,"end":4916.195,"text":"第二項我們是說資訊然後這個行政院的條文是服務措施"},{"start":4940.805,"end":4948.371,"text":"我們的是努力那他們行政院版的是因智力所以我覺得更好所以我覺得就用行政院版比較好"},{"start":4960.72,"end":4975.239,"text":"主席我這邊可以支持院辦我可以支持院辦非常謝謝在場的委員我們就按照這個行政院提案條文的第10條的條文通過"},{"start":4976.863,"end":5004.883,"text":"然後這個上次我們再往下看審查會通過版本修正通過有第十二條就是政府應該要鼓勵推動新住民還有他的母國連結的措施以促進新住民跟母國間經濟、社會、文化、宗教及學術等事項的交流合作是不是這個第十條第十二條我們就就不要不處理了請問一下在場的委員"},{"start":5009.062,"end":5011.724,"text":"第十二條"},{"start":5031.138,"end":5032.319,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5049.271,"end":5053.717,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5072.813,"end":5098.78,"text":"好,我想在場的委員可能沒有意見的話,因為我覺得我們上次修正通過的第十二條也是一個宣誓的意義,那其實在第十條裡面其實是就是希望他跟母國能夠聯繫啦,那所以如果說大家不堅持的話,我們就...我是覺得如果委員會當初審查沒有什麼問題就給他保留,因為他宣誓的條文也沒什麼不好的吧,這保留大家會有困擾嗎?"},{"start":5100.707,"end":5112.472,"text":"因為我們審查過的然後在協商的時候推翻好像不太好是不是好請紅路委員我覺得這個是宣示沒有什麼特別的那個不影響但"},{"start":5113.933,"end":5140.652,"text":"我覺得我剛上面看了一下你如果12條我覺得啦如果要宣誓是不是併到行政院版的12條因為12條他也是就是他寫的是比較實際一點因為規劃相關資源啦學校等等的我們這個宣誓如果併到12條我不知道內政部這邊的意思"},{"start":5143.172,"end":5169.63,"text":"因為我覺得這樣子的條文會比較漂亮啦會比較漂亮啦 不要單獨弄一個這樣子紅綠委員可是看一下第12條大概都是在講我國語言的部分然後第12我們上次修正通過的是跟母國連結的部分所以可能如果要放的話不太適合放在行政院版本的第12條"},{"start":5170.911,"end":5171.051,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5186.846,"end":5189.309,"text":"審查會通過的版本在所謂的第二落這個部分是11條之一、12條、第九條之一跟第九條"},{"start":5203.146,"end":5203.306,"text":"禮物禮物"},{"start":5224.477,"end":5251.688,"text":"只在講第十條的時候呢就是把原來是屬於修正通過的審查會版本裡面是提到資訊但是我們把它改成是服務措施那服務措施跟資訊呢它的那個量能就多很多那這個就謝謝委員的支持那在修正通過的第十二條裡面政府應該鼓勵推動新住民與其母國連結的措施的部分呢基本上我們把它放在第十二條"},{"start":5252.988,"end":5278.914,"text":"還有第十三條裡面十二條裡面的時候就是說我們政府應該規劃結合相關資源跟學校要積極提供新住民學習我國語言這個當然是來台灣適應的時候需要學習的部分那消除他的語言隔閡但是我們也要提供獎勵措施結合各級學校家庭跟社區我們已經明定出來就是學校家庭跟社區都有"},{"start":5280.274,"end":5295.869,"text":"要推動新住民的語言這個部分那所謂新住民語言的話就是我們原來在行政院所推出的版本是屬於多語言我們認為所謂的母國這樣子的概念不如把它想成多語言會比較好"},{"start":5296.69,"end":5296.79,"text":"議員王美玲"},{"start":5320.073,"end":5348.232,"text":"他的學術研究或是學校要設立這個相關院系所裡面的培育新住民的專業人才也就是說整體來講行政院所提案的10條、11條、12條跟13條當然有些已經修正通過有些還沒有就是就原來我們在審查會所通過的11條之一、12條、第9條之一就是第9條的一個版本那我們把它比較屬於法令上面的需求"},{"start":5348.852,"end":5355.735,"text":"以及屬於未來的權益保障跟服務方面,把它綜合整理出這以上四個條文。以上,跟委員參考。"},{"start":5372.469,"end":5391.466,"text":"好,我想也尊重一下我們上次修正通過的部分所以劉啟庭委員的建議非常好,在場的委員都同意嗎?好,我們請助理們來提一下附帶決議的文字,我們待會處理好不好?所以剛剛有講過"},{"start":5393.208,"end":5415.496,"text":"在審查會通過的版本的第十一條之一我們剛剛已經處理了是以第十條那剛剛有講過還有這個第十一條、第十二條、第十三條的部分那個剛剛部長也說明得非常清楚所以在審查會通過的第十二條還有第九條之一、第九條"},{"start":5417.477,"end":5430.522,"text":"第十條保留部分不予處理,按照行政院提案版本通過,但尤其在第十二條跟母國連結的部分,會提附帶決議。"},{"start":5440.213,"end":5441.594,"text":"十四、十五、十六也一併來討論,是嗎?部長,你要不要先說明一下?謝謝。"},{"start":5472.291,"end":5474.975,"text":"羅美玲委員有修正動議嗎?"},{"start":5488.584,"end":5504.335,"text":"因為第十一條其實本來我們是第九條之一嘛通過的是第九條之一然後是院版的第十一條是有關於新住民家庭服務中心的部分其實我是有提了一個修正動議我是有加上提供心理跟法律諮詢之資源轉介服務啦"},{"start":5505.996,"end":5534.815,"text":"因為其實我們有很多的像婚姻移民的新住民其實他們剛來的時候其實因為語言也許不通所以跟家庭可能會有一些跟家庭跟社會可能都有一些疏離感所以其實承受的心理壓力是蠻大的那再來他們對剛來的時候可能對台灣的法律不是那麼的清楚所以我有放了一個法律諮詢的部分所以我有修了一個修正動議"},{"start":5539.918,"end":5563.969,"text":"羅美玲委員的修正動議是按照審查會通過的第九條之一但是我們看到一下第九條之一我們可能對應著現在是行政院提案的版本第十一條是嗎大家看一下所以這個內政部請問一下部長羅美玲委員所提的修正動議的部分他要提供心理跟法律諮詢的資源轉介服務"},{"start":5565.169,"end":5582.095,"text":"放在第11條嗎?還是你們看到第12條當中或13條裡面哪裡可以放?原來行政院版本的11條我們不反對但是是不是可以請教一下衛福部的代表好嗎?我們內政部當然不反對衛福部的代表看他們的想法"},{"start":5584.019,"end":5584.659,"text":"社家屬嗎?好"},{"start":5614.424,"end":5640.996,"text":"來我們請醫師人員到那邊然後請拿麥克風給他好了這裡那裡可以可以謝謝好謝謝科長陳昭帆對嗎好謝謝社交所這邊說明那有關羅美玲有所提的有關這個提供心理諮詢的這個服務那主責是我們可以大聲一點嗎是不是我們聽不太清楚桌上的就好了好嗎謝謝"},{"start":5643.412,"end":5659.65,"text":"社交署說明,針對羅美玲所提的提供心理服務的部分是我們部心理健康室主責的。心理健康室這邊有提到,只要我們這個新住民家庭服務中心的服務的案件是有心理服務的需求的話,在現在本來就可以連結到我們新衛中心這邊來做"},{"start":5664.935,"end":5667.356,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審議"},{"start":5688.007,"end":5693.056,"text":"供新住民家庭中心使用提供心理跟法律諮詢的資源轉介服務是沒有問題的"},{"start":5696.581,"end":5716.612,"text":"好 所以沒問題的話所以把它放在條文當中你們也沒意見嘛 對不對好 沒有意見大家來我們休息一下3分鐘我們來看一下羅美玲委員的跟我們的行政院版本的11條的文字融入怎麼放進去大家思考一下我們休息一下3分鐘好不好 謝謝"},{"start":5721.317,"end":5723.238,"text":"嗯?你們趕快商量一下吧。"},{"start":5744.668,"end":5758.775,"text":"好,羅美玲委員抱歉,你們看一下本來新住民中心裡面就有這些項目要放進去也可以,但是本來就不可以因為他們的福祉項目裡面"},{"start":5773.181,"end":5773.822,"text":"二、行政院函請審議"},{"start":5803.827,"end":5811.911,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":5828.355,"end":5849.552,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權"},{"start":5851.378,"end":5853.302,"text":"委員王美玲等22人分別擬具"},{"start":5870.089,"end":5877.392,"text":"《新住民權益保障法草案》《新住民權益保障法草案》《新住民權益保障法草案》《新住民權益保障法草案》"},{"start":5899.462,"end":5918.951,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5920.031,"end":5922.012,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5940.442,"end":5953.226,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員王美玲等19人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":6182.895,"end":6198.047,"text":"好,現在大家辛苦了我們來看一下對於第11條還有羅美玲委員提的修正動議版本我們來文字容一下請我們議事人員把文字來提供在我們的螢幕上面大家看一下"},{"start":6217.781,"end":6232.331,"text":"有文字了嗎?來,右邊那個螢幕沒有,謝謝好,看得到文字的委員,大概看一下因為右邊那個電視螢幕我看不到來"},{"start":6244.358,"end":6244.678,"text":"第十一條"},{"start":6246.932,"end":6274.538,"text":"對於在台的新住民家庭政府應該要提供家庭婚姻以及育兒等諮詢服務以及心理與法律諮詢之資源轉介並於直轄市縣跨號市政府設新住民家庭服務中心對於新住民家庭的子女政府應該要提供輔導措施以協助其適應生活大家看一下這樣的文字"},{"start":6276.41,"end":6277.739,"text":"來馬次長,還有意見嗎?"},{"start":6282.683,"end":6283.163,"text":"麥玉珍委員"},{"start":6315.744,"end":6329.69,"text":"侵犯婚姻及育兒等諮詢服務及心理與法律諮詢至資源轉介"},{"start":6339.673,"end":6339.773,"text":"主席"},{"start":6360.8,"end":6382.867,"text":"蔓依珍委員前面是對於家庭婚姻和育兒的諮詢服務接下來就是心理跟法律諮詢的資源轉介他要問的問題就是這兩項的資源轉介是直轄市縣市政府的"},{"start":6384.008,"end":6384.468,"text":"復誤中心轉介"},{"start":6402.277,"end":6413.042,"text":"麥玉珍委員您介意的文字是這樣子我們這一條是在規範這個新住民家庭服務中心的功能對嗎?"},{"start":6414.518,"end":6441.512,"text":"應該是這樣吧,那我們是不是乾脆再文字再修一下是不是要把政府設立新住民家庭服務中心放在最前面放在最前面,然後對於提供服務跟轉介換個順序,這樣可能分工比較清楚好不好,我們是不是做一下文字的調整好,非常謝謝麥義貞委員的提醒也謝謝劉許廷委員的建議我想內政部應該沒意見,我們來把文字來調整一下"},{"start":6443.434,"end":6446.637,"text":"政府應與直轄市縣框號市政府設新住民家庭服務中心"},{"start":6469.177,"end":6477.482,"text":"對於在台的新住民家庭政府應提供家庭婚姻以及育兒等諮詢服務,以及政府可以拿掉吧"},{"start":6483.481,"end":6498.994,"text":"應提供家庭婚姻及育兒等諮詢服務,以及心理還有法律諮詢的資源轉介。對於新住民家庭的子女,政府應提供輔導措施以協助其適應生活。政府英語四個字也可以拿掉?"},{"start":6502.988,"end":6516.613,"text":"後面那個政府因為政府叫直轄市政府設很奇怪吧就直轄市、縣市政府、英社、新住民家庭服務中心把那個英放在社的前面"},{"start":6517.967,"end":6532.036,"text":"然後對於在台之新住民家庭提供直接提供就好因為你印在前面嘛家庭婚姻育兒等資訊服務以及心理與法律諮詢資源之轉介這樣好大家看一下這樣文字是不是更好一點"},{"start":6533.499,"end":6556.552,"text":"好,沒有問題,好,我們第十一條就依照我們上一次的審查會通過版本的第十一條之,不對,對不起我講錯,第九條之一還有剛剛大家集思廣益以及羅美玲委員的修正動議版本的文字結合了之後,完成了我們現在的文字的修訂"},{"start":6557.762,"end":6575.217,"text":"好,如果沒有問題的話,我們就按照行政院版本以及大家剛剛召委所提的這個文字修訂通過,好嗎?好,第十二條。好,謝謝。來附帶決議,大家看一下印了沒有?還沒印,我簽完了再印是嗎?好。"},{"start":6577.659,"end":6578.08,"text":"審查會通過版本第九條"},{"start":6600.234,"end":6603.616,"text":"政府應獎勵或補助新住民學術研究,鼓勵大專院校設立新住民學術相關院系所學位的學程,要培育新住民的專業人才。"},{"start":6627.412,"end":6652.284,"text":"那上次審查會通過的版本是等第10條有被保留的裡面有委員蘇巧慧等26人的第15條委員王美惠等19人的第10條台灣民眾黨團委員張智倫等18人國民黨團委員邱鎮軍等27人的第10條所以如果大家沒意見的話我們就按照行政院版本的條文通過好嗎"},{"start":6654.017,"end":6666.707,"text":"請問在場的委員好謝謝我們就按照行政院提案的條文第13條通過再繼續看第14條第14條我們上次審查會通過的版本來看一下我們的條文是13條"},{"start":6670.184,"end":6670.704,"text":"行政院函請審議"},{"start":6683.882,"end":6684.162,"text":"第十四條"},{"start":6700.804,"end":6723.058,"text":"行政院版本第15條,我們按照行政院版本第15條通過然後第16條,那上次審查會通過版本的第11條,大家看一下政府機關或機構處理新住民事務應該要使新住民得以他的語言陳述意見必要的時候應該要提供該語言的通譯服務"},{"start":6723.979,"end":6727.64,"text":"第十六條,我有一個附帶決議,其實那時候我提的版本裏面其實我有希望說我們要設立一個統一的培訓跟認證的"},{"start":6753.208,"end":6753.949,"text":"二、行政院函請審議"},{"start":6770.266,"end":6786.671,"text":"議員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．事由、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．事由、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．事由、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．事由、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．事由、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．事由、"},{"start":6796.914,"end":6797.154,"text":"委員范雲"},{"start":6822.703,"end":6851.89,"text":"這個部分因為我的版本今天還沒有來得及併進來其實我的第15條裡面就加上就是剛剛羅美玲那個意見那我是放在條文中那我的部分我可以唸給大家聽就在前面的那兩段之後加上說未達成前兩項目標政府應建立統一之同意人員培訓及職業制度所以如果也許大家支持的話就可以直接放在條文當中大家也可以參考以上"},{"start":6852.13,"end":6854.551,"text":"法院委員的版本看到了嗎?手上有沒有資料?"},{"start":6880.22,"end":6908.109,"text":"最重要的是我們的行政部門有沒有意見為達成前兩項的目標政府應該建立統一的通譯人員培訓以及職業制度,對嗎?好,這個部分有沒有意見?有意見請說明一下,來跟委員說明,目前通譯人員的培訓跟運用我們目前是善在各機關也就是說各機關都在各自推動辦理"},{"start":6909.059,"end":6917.63,"text":"目前還沒有一個單一的主責機關那我們是目前呢因為行政院也有一個同意制度的精進事辦計畫今年4月1號才剛上路那它為期是兩年所以兩年後呢它必須"},{"start":6923.052,"end":6925.014,"text":"議員羅美玲等19人分別擬具〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案〈新住民權益保障法草案〉案"},{"start":6952.536,"end":6979.168,"text":"因為這個職業制度看起來可能就目前在各機關上可能沒有辦法做到職業制度的規劃那是不是委員可以同意允許就是說我們朝著目前行政院已經既定的方向我們逐步來落實那同意制度呢我想因為我們在條文裡面也有提到同意人員的這個同意制度的要提供這樣的服務所以是不是先可以尊重院版的文字以上"},{"start":6980.981,"end":6982.082,"text":"通譯制度的專業性及品質影響到還在適應期、語言能力不夠好的參與各項權益。"},{"start":6996.671,"end":7018.346,"text":"希望都能夠是做到一些對現況的改善所以如果議員這邊不希望放在條文中的話那是不是可以放在說明文字中然後搭配那個羅美玲委員的那個附帶決議好嗎讓我們確定就是現況就是不夠好所以我們才要有這個新法能夠逐步改善好不好"},{"start":7020.453,"end":7035.184,"text":"行政部會放在說明欄應該沒有什麼意見吧你們待會把這個犯人委員提案的精神然後怎麼放在說明欄裡面來說明"},{"start":7037.125,"end":7062.892,"text":"然後待會提供這個文字給我們這個所有的委員們看一下好嗎好那我們的第15條這個按照第16條按照行政院版本的我這個提案通過但是呢我們會有一個羅美玲委員的這個附帶決議已經剛才范雲委員所說的他的版本裡面的意思必須放在說明欄裡面好嗎"},{"start":7063.912,"end":7064.072,"text":"第十六條通過"},{"start":7094.659,"end":7108.713,"text":"條文通過第十八條上一次我們有按照審查會通過的版本就是按照台灣民眾黨黨團提案、國民黨黨團提案、委員張智倫等18人提案、委員蘇巧慧等26人提案、委員邱鎮軍等27人"},{"start":7115.72,"end":7136.082,"text":"提案通過的第16條政府應該要鼓勵新住民投入公共參與增進多元文化交流所以行政院提案的版本第18條政府應鼓勵新住民投入公共參與增進多元文化交流是一樣的所以在場的委員我們就按照行政院的提案通過好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":7137.964,"end":7155.66,"text":"第十條、十九條,上次審查會通過的版本第十七條大概就是有施行日期,但是剛剛我們這個行政院有一個十九條,就是按照對應第二條的部分。"},{"start":7156.721,"end":7185.759,"text":"那個部分我們是第二條有保留所以是不是19條你要再往目前的施行日期條文是要往後移是吧我們就是遇到院會去處理那我們今天還是照19條因為那個既然是保留到時候院會協商的時候看他會不會採納如果不採納他就沒有增加19條的問題可是我們還有第二條的部分要討論所以第二條要怎麼處理其實到時候院會他在二、三組他也會說明"},{"start":7190.102,"end":7215.461,"text":"按照原來行政院版本的第19條按照我們剛剛保留的第二條跟你們新增的19條到時候黨團協商或者是院會處理的時候會自然而然的往後調這樣可以嗎?現在我們來看一下這兩個還是宣告一下吳思耀這兩個修正動議我們就不處理"},{"start":7216.924,"end":7240.012,"text":"吳思瑤委員修正動議第六條吳思瑤委員修正動議第十七條我們就不予處理了我們繼續來處理附帶決議然後再回頭來討論保留的部分附帶決議總共有六案大家手上都有這個資料嗎?"},{"start":7243.263,"end":7263.032,"text":"七月二號有五案,然後今天有一案,大家看一下第一案附帶決議,大家手上,來請紅綠委員不好意思啊,趙委,我覺得,抱歉,我們不要一條一條啦,好不好?你那陣部有意見的,我們再說嘛,不然就通過就好啦"},{"start":7263.692,"end":7263.712,"text":"負貸決議"},{"start":7282.521,"end":7288.304,"text":"負貸決議內容我們都沒意見但是可不可以在那個處理上面就是說那個行政院要求做什麼做什麼可不可以變成說這個新住民權益保障法三讀通過之後因為這樣日期壓一個起點我們比較好處理因為我們如果有母法的話要訂定相關的執法或是其他的應用辦法的話可能會比較好"},{"start":7316.917,"end":7338.245,"text":"第幾案你有那個意見?附帶決議的第二案羅美玲委員所提的行政倒數第二行要求行政院於三個院內這比較奇怪因為三個院內可能可以從今天起算那所以是不是可以變成說行政院於本法三讀通過後"},{"start":7339.945,"end":7364.838,"text":"所以你的附帶決議裡面只要有行政院虛餘幾個月你要把那個行政院那個文字把它都修正為本法三讀通過以後這個對行政機關比較好請問一下羅美玲委員OK 這部分沒有問題啦因為就是還是要法通過之後的多久我覺得這個是OK因為"},{"start":7366.843,"end":7380.65,"text":"因為現在法還沒有整個通過所以說要求...好吧因為不管你是要新住民專責單位你要提升也是要等到本法通過確實是沒有錯好 這部分我能夠接受OK 以上謝謝"},{"start":7381.701,"end":7382.481,"text":"三、立法院立法三讀通過"},{"start":7409.359,"end":7431.649,"text":"第四是張智倫委員的提案,它是符合國際人權公約之精神,請行政院於本法通過後6個月內,針對外國人依法取得永久居留身份者所應享有之相關權利提出修法計畫,並盤點現行相關法令及政策措施中,對其行使"},{"start":7432.189,"end":7449.728,"text":"之差別待遇進行說明將書面報告送立法院我們是希望說這個文字的部分基本上我們因為永久拘留他的權益涉及到教育、勞動、醫療、文化、服務等十幾個相關機關所以必須要在等法等本法通過後全面盤點"},{"start":7450.709,"end":7466.515,"text":"案件本來就要配合檢討,如果有的話,依照法制作業,各機關本來就要修法,所以我們是不是建議簡化成說第二行,針對外國人依法取得永久居留身份者並規劃盤點現行相關法令及政策措施並規劃"},{"start":7481.85,"end":7482.07,"text":"負債決議四"},{"start":7498.442,"end":7513.888,"text":"一、二、三、第三行所應享有之相關權利提出修法計畫張智倫委員也同意把那個字拿掉了然後要盤點現行相關法令及政策措施那個鐘也拿掉"},{"start":7514.608,"end":7542.495,"text":"然後對其行使之差別待遇進行說明改成並規劃應享有之相關權益是這樣的意思嗎所以你們跟張智倫委員提案委員討論的是這樣沒有錯吧他已經都同意了嘛所以他現在人已經不在了就按照你們剛剛討論的結論的文字好不好來請議事人員來來應一下也給大家來附帶決議第五也是張智倫委員的提案"},{"start":7543.936,"end":7557.487,"text":"應請內政部、行政院改成內政部,然後一、二、三、第三行第62條現行執行的缺失,他同意不要用後面那些文字所以就是現行執行的狀況已經問題,並且嚴提"},{"start":7563.078,"end":7587.71,"text":"經濟對策,把審查也拿掉了。提案委員第四、第五案,來把它列印給大家。所以按照以上剛剛召委所說明的,還有部長所說明的附帶決議應該沒有問題對吧?來,第一、二、三那個部分行政院虛於本法,"},{"start":7589.028,"end":7589.448,"text":"議事人員宣讀寫商結論"},{"start":7648.413,"end":7672.534,"text":"宣讀協商結論審查會保留的名稱還有第二條是行政院版本修正後之條文及台灣民眾黨團所提修正動議併案保留第四條、第五條、第六條行政院版本345保留"},{"start":7674.025,"end":7698.335,"text":"及委員提案第六條、第七條行政院提案第六條、第七條照案通過委員會審查保留的第三條不予採納行政院提案的第八條修正通過委員會審查保留的蘇巧慧委員的第十條不予採納"},{"start":7702.594,"end":7725.552,"text":"行政院提案第九條、第十條,遭案通過。第十一條,修正通過。行政院提案第十二條、十三條、十四條、十五條、十六條、十七條、十八條,均遭案通過。通過附帶決議六項。宣讀完畢。好,現在謝謝議事人員。我們現在就是"},{"start":7730.111,"end":7734.956,"text":"本次會議委員提案及修正動議全部列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":7748.387,"end":7750.768,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7769.818,"end":7769.998,"text":"主席韓議員"},{"start":7800.537,"end":7822.647,"text":"委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員羅美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．一、本院內政委員王美玲等22人分別擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案"}]}},{"id":"16082","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16082","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a06c40cc21ee902ac10abd10e4f7ccf8c84f242ceca95778391e2dda4113506a035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商有關「電業法第四十九條條文修正草案」案（國民黨黨團提議）二、考試院人事同意權案相關事宜。三、研商有關「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」、「洗錢防制法修正草案」、「科技偵察及保障法草案」及「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」等案（民進黨黨團提議）四、研商有關「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」等案（國民黨黨團提議）五、研商有關「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第五條、第七條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案（國民黨黨團提議））","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-09T08:59:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T15:22:00+08:00","duration":22921,"影片長度":"06:22:01","委員發言時間":"08:59:59 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d":2603.461,"text":"這今天下午三點也不會算啦明天才專心來協商不然他跟我講說他今天有事不要這樣說今天有事所以未來這個法案都很重要嘛"},{"start":2604.997,"end":2632.425,"text":"所以禮拜五就開始要處理法案了。我現在禮拜五還要下禮拜二,這兩天而已。但是呢,專心處理的話應該會有共識的很快。也跟副總召商量,結果三年我們還在開黨黨會議。我們開去,後來總統很厲害,我夢想法院找我說,欸,那總統這麼厲害,董事長叫我講我要去處理,我說沒問題啊,大家都,兩邊都把燈把大開就好了。不要在那邊,要趕在,要趕在,那是沒暫時離開的。"},{"start":2634.586,"end":2635.106,"text":"案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":2650.195,"end":2656.821,"text":"這整個我們要把它處理完畢嘛。OK。總統會議。結果我們在開總統會議的時候這邊開始在罵我們。我看黃國昌衝動跑來。黃國昌總統應該是有一個公聽會怎麼樣。但是從頭到尾我們都是一句話。講話就是一句話。"},{"start":2671.007,"end":2691.424,"text":"你說白的沒有意見,哪裡有意見,然後我們就是今天早上九點開始,這樣一句話。當然我們後續的安排,不管怎麼樣,我們要把整個做完成。所以在這裡,我要拜託韓院長,你作為院長應該有一定的中立,第一個。"},{"start":2693.447,"end":2718.374,"text":"二、當他們在罵我的時候,你叫他們每一個人在罵一輪,你應該做到手勇氣說,這個我跟董事長談好了。應該是馬上制止,不要在那邊私下在公審,在那邊講得很難聽。所以讓院長必須要有一定的高度。這你應該擔起來擔起來,因為我們這樣大家講好了,你應該很清楚講表述,這個事情就是如此。"},{"start":2719.875,"end":2740.748,"text":"這是第一點,我必須提出我的看法以及像韓院長昨天你這樣處理我倒是蠻失望,假設我已經說滿面共這就是我跟老柯講好跟黃國昌也講好,就是明天這是一句話大家不要再走,不要再夾蔥夾料在那邊,這是第一點"},{"start":2741.994,"end":2766.59,"text":"第二點我要在這裡問一件事情就是說當初吳謙一從在大陸投票我們要調錄影帶因為他都不給那今天我要問立法院的錄影帶錄影帶是誰所以一定有辦法嘛我記得很清楚過去人檢調來要調我們立法院的錄影帶要辦案子那時候公安的時候"},{"start":2770.973,"end":2772.994,"text":"一、國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":2800.202,"end":2801.323,"text":"立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":2820.606,"end":2830.172,"text":"通訊打電話過去你就馬上拿出來。」這是有影響到各自有影響到另外安全而且而且我在這裡講還能講總統講的一樣非常不適當的法"},{"start":2833.615,"end":2858.972,"text":"因為你再一看就是防解一開的嘛你還講說這個只要外面人進來的話這個安全就很大問題不要讓天油加醋啦這不好手將沒有啦沒有手將直接沒有沒有外面的人所以這個到這個草案工房不出其招我們今天要談的是為什麼我們要這樣的行為因為過去國民黨"},{"start":2860.473,"end":2877.041,"text":"南白不是為了日晚之間新書法,這樣暫已完成議場,然後用這樣表決,現在明天下午大方要開審理期,要暫時處分的裁定庭,明天各黨都要去。"},{"start":2879.622,"end":2894.098,"text":"所謂很多事情要了解於前因後果（例如人們能來朝野互相公安前天都有的事情（只要在各種程序上、各種有自己的方法（"},{"start":2895.499,"end":2896.24,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":2914.942,"end":2938.084,"text":"而且不能提前正在修改。你用這樣的同樣的審判法你把罷免的話,罷免就Thank you,罷免非理,罷免王杰過,也罷免過王浩宇。但是現在突然就是說民意起來,民意對抗的時候怕被罷免,你就要修改,用你沒有辦法,用身份證當你沒有辦法罷免。這些"},{"start":2939.741,"end":2956.152,"text":"因果關係都要弄清楚。」我覺得要講的就是說,院方一定要總理,假如這樣的話我們是不是會掉,我為什麼剛剛蘇美把人扣到那裡,讓錄影帶她走路的行徑,到國民黨二零一的時候,門怎麼打開要鎖起來。"},{"start":2958.177,"end":2972.394,"text":"為何昨天會時間到一、四人員全部不來二零二幫會議室呢?也沒有簽到,連保資料都不來,人都不見。反此種種,坦白講,院長,"},{"start":2974.036,"end":2988.281,"text":"你的綜藝性是非常重要的,你的綜藝性非常重要。不過今天要講就是說,我們都很清楚,院長那天我上禮拜五我聽說黃木乃組長說要昨天下午兩點半要協商,我說當然我對。"},{"start":2993.343,"end":3001.609,"text":"刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪"},{"start":3014.164,"end":3040.166,"text":"我在立法院黨總召長二十幾年,草案相我從來不缺席的。沒人不來我還會在那邊做。但是呢,大家有原因可以商量的,改時間當然是都可以商量的。包括我們這位你當院長以來,很多要草案相的時間你都甄請大家可以,我都盡量配合。是這樣的吧。所以不要在那邊講說民進黨紀寫草案相怎麼回事,這樣缺席審判。這些都是極大不道德。"},{"start":3042.308,"end":3069.56,"text":"科建民總召提的兩個部分我從第二個先講所降這個事情昨天在內政委員會我們立法院某一位委員帶了一位類似像秘書這樣去開這個門錄影帶的事情我們在散會之前會跟各位做一個報告我們現在因為總統委員還不在我們不浪費寶貴時間等一下散會之前會做一個報告第一件事情科總召非常堅持的就是上禮拜五協調昨天的開"},{"start":3070.28,"end":3086.797,"text":"草疑協商的事情．科總召所講的每一個環節都是正確的,他所做的跟我聯絡打電話,包括跟侯木凱書記長跟我聯絡,是不是不要開,我說不行,我們因為時間已經有點不夠了,要開,然後侯木凱委員希望兩點半,"},{"start":3088.018,"end":3089.079,"text":"刑事部長郭文貴議員"},{"start":3110.672,"end":3112.093,"text":"草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．事由．刑"},{"start":3130.62,"end":3156.6,"text":"有朝一日有一天綠軍在這裡來開會藍軍或白的民眾黨跟國民黨如果他不來的話你們要求發言我們準時坐到這裡的時候也一樣會給你們發言的機會雖然有政黨不到但是準時來的委員希望發言的時候我還是會讓大家來發個言發言以後把一些想法講出來絕對不是缺席審判這一點我跟柯總統特別報告然後您剛剛所講的每一個環節你都做到了"},{"start":3157.423,"end":3157.703,"text":"條例草案．一、研商有關"},{"start":3181.803,"end":3200.89,"text":"你講的和我講的都有對焦這是你發言的部分你又來了就給他發言我也知道你的苦衷但是呢你要有道德勇氣所以這個東西我跟老柯都講好了他說不要談不要再做切與審判他說講好就是一句話就是一句話是這樣嘛一棒在牙然後直播在連這個"},{"start":3203.949,"end":3224.02,"text":"當期開會講的口誤橫揮,講到別的地方去了,大家在那盡忙發揮,到底是怎麼一回事呢?你跟我講說白人沒有意見,男的有意見,然後我說那你說,那就幾面轉場再來。就一句話,你應該馬上自己說,這個東西經過大家講好。假如我是你的話,我已經有道德的勇氣,人家請你什麼,這就是這樣,大家說好了。"},{"start":3225.461,"end":3252.052,"text":"我們現在審《電業法第四十九條條文修正草案》如果大家因為這樣一直發言下去的話經濟部部長跟台電都在這裡這樣好不好昨天如果大家有認為有不適當的地方通通算我的這樣好不好大家都不用發言是我做的地方也許不夠周全不夠完善你們如果重複這樣的發言的話我們今天這個議程會整個麻煩那你這樣張其凱也舉手了"},{"start":3253.875,"end":3268.852,"text":"因為科掌上有關...不不不,稍微等一下,請曾院長主席。黃山偉也要發言,黃孟凱偉也要發言。"},{"start":3271.345,"end":3299.769,"text":"我們先協商,我們到電業法協商我們再處理好不好,沒那麼難看好不好。我正式的建議我們黨團幹部,我請大家針對我們昨天的事情,請大家先不要暗表不談好不好。我們先來尊重電業法,你看經濟部的郭部長都已經第三次來了。你把電業部的事情再弄也不好看好不好。我們現在請提案的委員,等一下我們請電業法討論完畢之後,在討論考試院之前我們再來討論。好不好,請大家稍微,稍微問一下。"},{"start":3300.129,"end":3300.81,"text":"我們請國民黨黨團請提出說明"},{"start":3321.857,"end":3345.933,"text":"國務部長謝謝你第三次來抱歉不好意思不好意思我們立法院還是有一些家務事每次都讓你聽現場的感同身受一下我們這邊都雞同鴨講但是沒有辦法還是這樣我們希望說國務部長新年新氣象因為你來自業界"},{"start":3347.509,"end":3375.041,"text":"所以對一些社會的脈動可能會更加了解,而不是在一個象牙塔一個基礎官僚所以問到所提出來的這個電法修正案希望百分之百民意的國會也有各種政黨而且各種不同的聲音我想剛剛部長也聽到了各種不同的聲音就這個就是立法院這個多元民主的一個國會平台對於"},{"start":3378.058,"end":3396.212,"text":"修官名聲非常自拒自大的電費．電費不管是有各種的波動都會影響到．不管是國內的產業也好、經濟也好、物價也好．這個事關重大。"},{"start":3397.165,"end":3400.486,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":3427.204,"end":3454.777,"text":"行政院對於電價要做任何波動的時候應該在討論之後中央主管機關討論之後送到一個月之內要送到立法院來審議"},{"start":3456.87,"end":3480.736,"text":"對於民眾黨今天有提出修正動議,就是在行政院審議期間,學者、專家、相關民間團體代表不得少於二分之一。審議方式及其他應注意事項應基於公平、公正、公開、透明的原則由中央機關訂定之。這個部分我們也竟表同意。"},{"start":3481.909,"end":3503.431,"text":"我相信我們在禮拜五的修正動議當中也會把跟民眾黨來做成一個彼此的一個協商但是這兩樣是可以並行的兩樣並行的就是基於對民意的尊重大家可以把所有相關的事情還有國內會造成什麼樣的一個影響"},{"start":3505.151,"end":3509.054,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":3532.611,"end":3535.934,"text":"一百四百分之百無的地方（補充報告一下,現在有民進黨黨團跟臺灣民眾黨團提議修正動議並案討論,我們請議事人宣讀一下。"},{"start":3545.449,"end":3570.172,"text":"台灣民眾黨團提案第五項前項審議會之學者、專家及相關民間團體代表不得少於二分之一審議方式及其他應注意事項應據公平、公正、公開、透明的原則由中央主管機關定之,其與現行法相同。民主進步黨團提案第四項第二具"},{"start":3571.24,"end":3598.333,"text":"德改為因．五、前項學者專家及相關民間團體人數不得少於二分之一．其組成因．包含相關專業及社會團體意見．代表確保專業審議．第六項,審議會審議電價時．除參酌第二項依計算公式．擬定制電價及各種收費匯率．亦應考量對民生物價及產業競爭力．及能源使用效率之影響以維護社會公立。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":3600.332,"end":3620.165,"text":"現在請吳思耀委員發言。現在在處理電業法四十九條,那原來要提出來是國民黨的一個最後一項,很明確的要求是審議會的決議要從立法院審議後實施。第二個就是分別由民眾黨團跟民進黨團今天都有一個修正動議。"},{"start":3621.121,"end":3621.781,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":3646.158,"end":3650.14,"text":"負責消費者團體、工總、商總、學者專家 。」此組成,我們認為是有韓國民間意見的表達,而且很重要的是他們有電價相關審議的專業,所以這樣一個審議的機制,它可以非常開放性,而且可以反映民間的思維,去進行整個台電的"},{"start":3672.136,"end":3673.217,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":3694.958,"end":3717.936,"text":"而這個公式更在2015年也是依據立法院的決議所以台電從2015年定定出一個計算電價的電價公式是2015年立法院的決議2017年進一步的入法也是立法院通過的法律"},{"start":3719.24,"end":3746.03,"text":"當然現在國民黨團想要在修法來調整這個就是要回到我們過去長年以來的討論究竟誰有能力來進行電價的審議就民進黨團的立場其實也不是只有民進黨團我們看看世界各國的趨勢各國的做法從來沒有立法機關來介入來決定世界各國"},{"start":3747.29,"end":3766.99,"text":"都是由專業審查的機制。」我要再次強調電價是專業而不是政治可以來決斷第二個很重要我們自己在立法院的現場都知道每個議程議案的安排其實它極具高度的不確定性"},{"start":3768.834,"end":3775.769,"text":"財電的電價、它的決定、它的收費都應當能夠支持台電的穩健運作。」"},{"start":3778.208,"end":3804.54,"text":"如果說把台電的電價的決定交由一個在運作上本身議程高度不確定的立法院．其實對於審議過的期程．他必須處置的時間都很難以讓台電的公司治理．台電的文件營運．他的整個營餘的處理．他的整個財務的分配都會受到政治力來干預．"},{"start":3805.686,"end":3826.777,"text":"所以我簡單來歸納第一個,台電的電價審議從公示到審議會的成立都是立法院我們過去依立法院的決議跟立法院修正的法律來進行也進行了這麼多年第二個,世界各國沒有像現在國民黨的提案要由立法院來審議電價審議的結果"},{"start":3830.285,"end":3849.818,"text":"要降一定要立法院通過才能處置這個是全球罕見。第三個,如果讓這樣的電價審議的結論交由立法院來審議,它極具在議事程序上的高度不確定性,它不利於台電的財務穩健的運作。第四點,請讓專業回歸專業。"},{"start":3857.958,"end":3883.163,"text":"電價審議絕對是高度的專業,現在的審議會都是專業界的代表,各界的人士這個審議會怎麼組成也是過去立法院多所討論而決定的。基於這四個原因,我們認為交由立法院來決定,就是國民黨團的提案,這是難以接受的,也在現行的處理上會造成台電的營運上很大的困難,很大的困難。"},{"start":3884.184,"end":3912.507,"text":"最終一點就是責任政治啦!責任政治啦!台電的永續營運這個是責任政治嘛!經濟部要承擔、執政黨要承擔喔!如果立法權用一個修法的方式要把行政權能夠處理的事情來作為一個進圍取代、越組代跑如果台電的營運發生了危機、台電發生了狀況"},{"start":3913.948,"end":3937.828,"text":"或台電可能有財務營運不佳破產之餘﹖我都講到這最相對困難的極端那這責任是政治之下立法院能負責嗎所以基於五個原因希望在野黨提案的委員可以再多多深思我們不能切莫做出一個不宜、不正確也不好的一個修法提案謝謝"},{"start":3939.35,"end":3950.57,"text":"謝謝吳思瑤委員的發言那特別跟經濟部郭部長還有曾董事長報告一下你們稍微等一下請個黨團發言完畢之後等一下會請各位發言接下來我們張琦卡委員發言洪森漢委員請準備"},{"start":3952.472,"end":3981.59,"text":"接下來洪孟楷委員也請再準備好請今天電力法修正非常重要也很高興齁我剛剛看了民進黨提出了修正動議從善如流跟我們台灣民眾黨一個多月前我代表台灣民眾黨提出的案子非常接近我們不要說你們抄我們的啦回應了民意從善如流那剛剛副總召已經提了他也贊成台灣民眾黨的這個修正動議所以我今天應該是三黨都有共識的嘛齁"},{"start":3982.19,"end":4000.001,"text":"用我們一個多月前提出來的修正動議。」那我強調一下,顯然過一個半月多前,我們台灣民眾黨必須提這個修正動議,電業法為什麼要修?因為當初電價要漲,我們苦口婆心回應民意,民眾應該講兩個很重要的。"},{"start":4002.301,"end":4027.615,"text":"能不能不要漲、第二要漲能不能少一點點甚至你要漲你把你的能源的結果講清楚特別有沒有買電買太貴的事情我代表民眾黨團上去質詢了好幾次甚至我後來提案了立法院的院會都通過了要求經濟部跟台電來經濟委員會跟經濟委員解釋清楚民眾的這個需求結果"},{"start":4029.346,"end":4058.275,"text":"完全不遵守。」不是只有打臉臺灣民眾黨立法院,打臉整個立法院的院會的結議,所以後來我們被迫必須進一步想盡所有的辦法提修正動議。我要強調喔,民眾的要求是很卑微的喔,只是要求你在審議委員會、店家審議委員會裡面有二分之一以上是由學者專家跟民間的代表。目前目前"},{"start":4060.353,"end":4076.412,"text":"看起來是行政權不只是獨大而且變成獨裁了立法院通過什麼?他們完全不遵照事業一號漲價到現在有一個交代嗎?有一個解釋嗎?連一句解釋都沒有所以我們明確的要求至少以後組成"},{"start":4078.773,"end":4106.594,"text":"學者專家跟民間的代表必須要超過二分之一以上。」目前官方是十五到十七個裡面,我看了最近的開會,都是官方九個。民間跟學者專家八個。這是一個。第二個,程序是要公開透明的。我要強調一點,我們一個多月前提這個案子,以後發生了多少事情?台南的八十八槍。立洋的案子被起訴。"},{"start":4108.107,"end":4130.763,"text":"檢察官職責罪、起訴書裡面怎麼講?跟台電買電的報告收得多少?九十一億。昨天還發生更聳動的。台南、西匪、李宿町,被打了十一槍。現在你們買電,特別是光電,已經不是六十幾個案子起訴。你現在買太貴,買出弊案,現在買出命案來了。"},{"start":4132.133,"end":4150.596,"text":"人民不是很清楚要求你說,你至少給我一個交代解釋清楚啊,搞不好只能跟我說光電到底要怎麼樣去降價或怎麼談嗎?我是很高興,我聽說部長有在追這件事情。查清楚為什麼買光電,買一些電為什麼要這麼貴,我在執行委員會,民間人也在問,我們跟民間電廠買的有沒有太貴?"},{"start":4152.114,"end":4164.925,"text":"二、能源結構為何必須把最便宜的核三廠一號機、二號機停掉你用四倍價格火力全開去用燃煤、用天然氣這都是人民很卑微的要求叫你講清楚"},{"start":4166.072,"end":4168.133,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":4185.472,"end":4210.662,"text":"很謝謝!很謝謝!孟芳初中!很謝謝今天民進黨能夠從善如柳支持我們台灣民眾黨的案子那也謝謝副總長所以我覺得可以按照台灣民眾黨的版本來通過那我做個建議啦因為民進黨現在提的案子跟我們的案子是一樣的那後面我可以把民進黨的那後段再加進去我同意你們除了講這個你們除了"},{"start":4214.468,"end":4240.201,"text":"我們提案前向審議會之學者專家及相關民間團體代表不得少於二分之一。」我剛才說的以後不要再出現官方的代表獨裁又獨大至少要反過來民間學者專家二分之一另外審議的這個方式跟注意事項一定要公開公平還有公開透明原則好不好甚至要考慮一下要不要前程直播"},{"start":4241.322,"end":4250.402,"text":"審議的過程．現在審議完之後．後來都有把書面都送上去．記錄都送上去．我們要不要像前陣子那個．你看那個Face的那個辯論會"},{"start":4251.86,"end":4280.68,"text":"都已經公開了電視直播以後讓人民更重要的人民有很多的要求你要及時去回應我就要及時回應都要求他講的你會不會買太貴合三合兩要不要用人民要問你要回答問題好不好那另外我同意除了通過我們這個提案之外你們另外一個提案我贊成把它列進去民進黨不一樣除了贊成我們的你們講的這個二分同意我們的二分之一對不對一二分之一你們還有什麼後面那個"},{"start":4285.588,"end":4305.621,"text":"審議會議、審議這個電價的時候,除了參酬第二項依照計算公式擬定之電價及各種收費費率,亦應考量對民生、對物價、跟產業競爭、海域競爭力以及能源使用效率之影響,以維護社會公益。」我同意把它列進去,好不好?第六項,真的第六項,好謝謝,謝謝,謝謝"},{"start":4310.284,"end":4313.346,"text":"刑法第四十九條條文修正草案（事由．立法院黨團提議．立法院長"},{"start":4332.054,"end":4355.381,"text":"在討論這件事情我覺得最關鍵的一個問題我覺得大家必須回答的事情是到底我們期待電價的審議跟決定是由專業來審議還是由政治來決定我覺得這是最關鍵的事情剛剛張祺凱委員的講法裡面第一個我覺得他我聽出來他其實算是尊重"},{"start":4356.465,"end":4375.273,"text":"某些電價審議委員會裡面的民間委員的角色。」我聽出這件事情,好,但要記得一件事情,現在很多的這些專家學者是反對國民黨要求要把電價再拉進立法院來審議的。所以如果你也贊成專家"},{"start":4377.233,"end":4400.149,"text":"尤其是電業相關的專家在電價上面的專業意見的話不要漏掉他們是反對現在國民黨的提案的所以剛剛民眾黨想要弄一個並行藍白並行的這個做法又想要包牌我覺得這個是抵觸的再一點我再補充幾件事情這份聯署書是當初在四月的時候"},{"start":4401.27,"end":4414.345,"text":"藍白想要一起來阻擋電價調整的時候．有大概三十幾個專業的民間團體．還有四、五十個民間的學者．一起提出了聯署書．不要忘記裡面有一位"},{"start":4415.35,"end":4436.037,"text":"他的名字叫做肖黛基（我想三山委員很清楚知道（肖黛基也是柯文哲在總統大選非常非常倚重的能源顧問（他一樣站出來反對當時藍白希望阻止電價調整（也包括尤其修改電業法四十九條（要求把電價審議的機制"},{"start":4439.417,"end":4465.86,"text":"要送到立法院再審議．他也反對這件事情．他們都認為這是讓政治凌駕專業的做法所以剛剛如果張其凱委員也重視電價審議委員會裡面的專業意見的話那應該要瞭解他們是反對國民黨提案的所以民進黨不應該一面說我要我的這個提案又可以接受國民黨的提案這是假的第二件事情我要強調這一位"},{"start":4467.35,"end":4474.518,"text":"這位是誰?這位是商總的理事長許書博,他不是民進黨的吧?他也是現在電價審議委員會裡面的代表,他就出來嗆聲囉!"},{"start":4476.311,"end":4477.692,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":4500.849,"end":4523.613,"text":"民進黨的提案我們其實也是去檢視了過去在電業審議委員會裡面運作的方法我們也認為其實讓電價的審議更專業是好事所以我們基本上我們同意讓民間的專家委員跟團體代表超過二分之一這是一個但第二點不要忘了"},{"start":4524.636,"end":4552.742,"text":"我們甚至把原本是德邀集電價審議委員會我們直接把它改成因這代表我們就是希望讓電價審議的機制更往專業走的決心這是民進黨裡面沒有的所以如果民進黨也同意的話那其實是你們起義來歸是你們從善如流我們也很贊成我們也很支持不過這沒有關係可是我的意思是如果剛剛按照張一台委員講的我們希望讓他回歸專業的話"},{"start":4553.882,"end":4554.282,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":4576.44,"end":4583.388,"text":"政治攻防的籌碼,變成政治決定的這種大家過去不樂見看到的狀況,我們一起讓電價審議更專業,這事情我們同意。」"},{"start":4589.083,"end":4611.862,"text":"謝謝洪森漢委員的發言,接下來請洪孟肯委員發言,請黃珊珊委員準備。好,院長感謝。我想神藝天價,尤其是這個四十九條,大家各黨團可以提出各自的立場,但是真的不用說吃別人的豆腐。我覺得我們站在理性務實專業的角度來看,當然希望"},{"start":4612.583,"end":4639.504,"text":"民意代表就是要把關為人民發聲所以說我們也要幫人民發聲啊重點是國人我相信沒有一個國人不希望說用專業來說話用專業來判斷我想過去在電業法審議的時候為什麼會有電價審議小組那個時候就是希望是說有專業啊專業的審查小組完了之後都可以告訴我們到底國際能源趨勢如何然後這個電價事實的調整但不要忘記啊"},{"start":4640.525,"end":4665.924,"text":"過去從2018年我們電價連7動連7次動漲甚至最高的國際成本藍媒成本在什麼時候達到最高峰無二戰爭的時候是在2021年但2021年那時候我們並沒有調漲電價明明大家都講是說國際的成本藍媒成本藍器成本大幅增加了但是為什麼那個時候民進黨政府主政之下並沒有調漲這有專業嗎"},{"start":4669.563,"end":4697.575,"text":"剛剛有委員代表講是說專家學者也請不要忘記也請容許我提醒當時民進黨政府主政之下的連期動漲的時候每一次動漲又有專家學者跳出來講是說他也認為說這種就是政治凌駕專業因為電價審議小組他們是不是確實有看到國際的能源的燃煤燃氣成本明明就漲幅了但是那個時候是動漲的那也因為是是不是選舉考量"},{"start":4699.364,"end":4727.414,"text":"事由其他的考量到選舉結束之後就開始漲．而且因爲前面的動漲反而讓後面的補漲或後面的漲價幅度更加的大讓國人感受到更加的不安因電價的漲價造成物價的全面提升以及物價的全面上漲所以我們講說萬物皆漲電是萬物之首就是這個道理"},{"start":4728.394,"end":4746.145,"text":"所以如果說可以回歸專業,我非常認同。我也希望電價審議小組就應該專業。因為電是大家都要使用的,能源是選擇。那國人既然大家都要用電,我們又要馬兒好,又要馬兒不吃草,不可能。"},{"start":4746.625,"end":4775.259,"text":"所以電價審議小組就應該本職專業,多少成本發電就應該要告訴國人清楚明白的資訊,而不是選擇性的辦案,選擇性的漲價,選擇性的動漲。你敢講,部長,您是來自產業界,你敢講過去這七次連期動漲沒有政治考量嗎?我相信不會。再來,有一個問題,我要拜託等一下部長跟台電這邊來回答。"},{"start":4776.513,"end":4805.444,"text":"因為電價跟發電量他是一個天平的兩端我們又希望我們的發電方式照現在民進黨政府規劃是非核家園我們又希望國人普遍大家又希望電價是合理的可以控制的範圍以及到底我們台灣電夠不夠今天最新的新聞嘛早上凌晨三點多桃園機場一行下跳電"},{"start":4808.578,"end":4815.79,"text":"刑場跳電、金船跳電、一航廈螢幕全壞、旅客找無登機資訊。」"},{"start":4824.295,"end":4848.24,"text":"沒有問題等一下請台電這邊說明一下請說明一下因為媒體的報導就是這樣寫桃園機場凌晨金船跳電一行下螢幕全壞我想這對一個國門來講這對於現在暑假的旺季大家要出國入國返回國門這狀況到底我們電夠不夠為什麼這過去這兩個月三個月跳電平船"},{"start":4850.421,"end":4874.732,"text":"部長,您來自產業啊。我想產業界也好或是民眾也好。你自己也講啦,台灣什麼電都需要。這是你前天上媒體專訪的時候所講的嘛。所以產業界也好、民眾也好,大家都希望的是我們能夠有一個合理可以負擔的電價,並且能夠有充足的電,不要有單身我們缺電的狀況。"},{"start":4875.732,"end":4900.682,"text":"甚至讓產業可以未來如同我們部長這邊想法AI產業要發展每年要增加平均3%的用電量五年就是15%到2030年的時候我們怎麼樣讓排碳又減少我們怎麼樣讓用電又增加我們怎麼樣又可以足夠用電然後電價又可以維持一個合力穩定的狀況這當然需要大家共同考慮這當然需要專業所以我簡單結論"},{"start":4903.001,"end":4929.957,"text":"我想民進黨今天所提出來修正動議這個專家學者二分之一的部分我們國民黨團是支持我們也認為是說本來就應該有專家學者跟相關民間代表審議並且公平公正公開透明原則這本來也應該連我們立法院都可以草野協商的時候都可以全程直播了那有什麼理由電價審議或是相關的部分我覺得政府部門做事能公開就盡量公開"},{"start":4931.317,"end":4952.462,"text":"讓國人都可以清楚明白、看到。」我想這也是一個負責任的做法跟態度那至於立法部門這個部分我們這邊當然也希望大家能夠討論因為我們也認為說立法部門這邊也佔有最高民意的一個表達所以綜合我想我們這邊也會再提出這個修正動議但是 對"},{"start":4954.246,"end":4976.401,"text":"我們會稍後再提出好不好但這重點在於是說我們希望能夠大家來做既然今天是協商大家互相來提出討論那我們也看大家各黨團能夠取得一個共識的一個部分我們再來繼續往下走謝謝謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員發言接下來黃珊珊委員發言莊瑞雄委員請準備"},{"start":4977.779,"end":4978.24,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4993.971,"end":5014.814,"text":"當時國民黨也提出所謂的動長,但是民眾黨提的叫緩漲。我們希望他們提出來,包括成本計算、物價到底怎樣,這些東西完了之後緩漲。所以我們並沒有跟國民黨一樣,所以這個可能請第一個要釐清。第二個,國民黨這個修正方案已經出來很久。"},{"start":5015.583,"end":5038.423,"text":"所以如果我們跟他們態度一樣的話我們就直接共提就好了所以我們沒有共提的原因也是如此也就是說台灣民眾黨為什麼提的修正動議是針對專家學者因為我想柯主席常常講理性務實科學我們尊重專業這個部分大概就是我們的立場所以我們希望說在專家學者裡面要讓民間超過二分之一這是我們一個多月前又提出來的方案"},{"start":5038.883,"end":5058.177,"text":"所以不是我們起義來歸,而是謝謝民進黨團的從善如流。」這是也必須要先釐清。那這個方案裡面很清楚的就是公開透明。公開透明的部分其實很簡單的就是說,為什麼大家對電價審議委員會有這麼多疑慮。所以我們每次看到結論,只看到結論。"},{"start":5059.177,"end":5060.217,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":5083.745,"end":5106.387,"text":"合約記錄,要在會議結束後兩個星期公開,甚至包括公開它的發言重點,這個可能是必要的,不管將來是怎麼樣的結果。但是台灣民進黨立場很清楚,我們也認為專業的歸專業,在專業的情況之下讓大家知道過程,而不是單純的不要貼人家的臉色,也不要扣人家的帽子。"},{"start":5106.647,"end":5135.432,"text":"草案民眾黨態度很清楚,我們的立場就是我們的修正動議,我們修正動議希望能夠完成以後,我們也不希望變成是行政跟立法互相在爭執,那這個部分應該是讓經濟部負最終的責任,但是,但是,它必須要公開透明,接受監督。我們的決議就是希望他們的東西,我們原則上同意這個他們的條文嘛,所以其實這個部分兩邊已經有共識,現在就看"},{"start":5136.723,"end":5139.066,"text":"公開透明的部分再寫一下。接下來我們請張瑞雄委員發言。張祺凱委員請準備。謝謝院長。剛聽了黃珊珊委員跟張祺凱委員的一席話。"},{"start":5155.274,"end":5178.128,"text":"當然他們認為說每一個政黨都考慮到他們的整個對於整個電價如何去做決定每一個人都是起義來歸歸到台灣民眾黨那邊去了這其實賺了面子也很好通過民進黨的提案然後功勞算裡面的這好事這個經濟部一定非常開心但是重點就是說從2015年我們在審議這個電價的時候"},{"start":5182.21,"end":5205.573,"text":"整個電價審議委員會裡面在我看來把商業代表還有消費團體專家民間代表放進去他其實就是一個叫做公開這個就是對外在做公開那你說他到底有沒有獨立性要到什麼樣的程度才叫獨立性那現在你民進黨的修正動議裡面把組成的部分把它給確定"},{"start":5206.895,"end":5210.839,"text":"當成是因你組成裡面要有相關專業跟社會團體代表還有確保專業的一個審議那這一些把它強制以後這個是好事啦所以民眾黨要的這一些民進黨的條文就讓你們去完成這個要感謝一下民進黨但是我倒會覺得說"},{"start":5226.836,"end":5231.221,"text":"國民黨其實也應該好好徹底再想一下顯然他們還是認為說國會是最高民意機關然後呢到最後國會還是要有一定的一個角色"},{"start":5237.695,"end":5261.564,"text":"這個如果說再把它給放進去的話電價審議到最後還要在立法院來做一個決定的話中局做一個決定的話我相信這個要好好思考立法委員真的是沒有那麼大沒有大到說我們整個行政權在發動攸關整個民生或者電價它的一個波動都已經公開又獨立又專業團體那我們設置這麼嚴格的一個"},{"start":5265.725,"end":5266.906,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":5285.117,"end":5298.174,"text":"我看民進黨黨也非常滿意嘛那是不是國民黨黨有真正的一個想法你就明講嘛就只剩下到底要不要在一個月內送交立法院審議的部分而已嘛這樣才有辦法聚焦啦"},{"start":5300.494,"end":5316.494,"text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員的發言,更正一下,按舉手次序,接下來是林世民發言,然後請張啟凱委員準備,對不起。好,謝謝院長。我想院長,協商如果要獲得結論,其實我想大家都要保持善意。"},{"start":5317.615,"end":5319.057,"text":"條例草案．事由．一、研商有關事宜相關事宜相關事宜相關事宜相關"},{"start":5341.519,"end":5360.605,"text":"好像說送到立法院來審議是多麼大不了的事．難道立法院會背離民意嗎．我想你們想太多了其實我想各位你們想一下你看那個現在原先的條文第一項我們的電費的這個收費的費率是怎麼算的他是有一個計算公式"},{"start":5361.866,"end":5386.314,"text":"所以這些專家學者他們做最後審議是按照什麼他們自由新政嗎不是啊他也是按照這個審議就是我們原本定的一個的計算公式算出來之後給他們做審議那為什麼會剛才會有如洪孟凱書記長講的會有明明我們的這個能源就已經漲價了那竟然可以連7棟"},{"start":5388.158,"end":5403.238,"text":"這什麼原因?難道那個公司有問題嗎?怎麼可能會一直這個電費你們就不漲?就沒依照你們的成本去漲?所以這個某部分來講我們就看到有政治的黑手介入嗎?行政權就去介入嗎?"},{"start":5404.44,"end":5429.938,"text":"所以我們認為說怎麼樣來平衡怎麼樣讓我們的立法機關也能夠代表我們的民意去監督整個店家的一個審議我想這一點很重要不是說這個國會來審議做最後一個審議去要經國會同意去看一下你們這個審議的情況程序怎麼樣因為剛才講到說那個民進黨那個提案我們也贊成啊公開透明啊整個審議的程序是公開透明的"},{"start":5431.199,"end":5456.06,"text":"這我們都贊同,但是最後把他交到我們立法院來做最後的一個行使同意。我想這是我們幫人民來把關。讓我們大家更了解說電價為什麼動,那為什麼又不漲,那現在又要漲。那你漲的一個幅度是怎麼樣?我想這並行不悖的啦,這絕對沒有悖離民意啦。"},{"start":5457.45,"end":5476.048,"text":"所以我想這個貴委員大家思考一下。好,李世民委員,謝謝你的發言,堅持我們最後一項國民黨團所提的版本。接下來張祺考員發言麻煩簡短一下,因為我們等一下行政部門還有說明。好不好,謝謝。好啦,謝謝,民進黨加國民黨加集齊。那我們的版本就要用我們的版本通過了。不過我要強調,事實上哪一個黨,"},{"start":5477.575,"end":5500.775,"text":"不是那麼最重要的,是全民營最重要的,而且要回應民意。」所以大家不要只有看我們的條文的表面,裡面真正的重點是什麼?第一個為什麼要把民間團體跟學者專家放進去?第一個是因為目前,就是要改革目前啊,目前的方式就是行政體系官方的代表獨大而且獨裁啊,"},{"start":5501.996,"end":5519.83,"text":"從二月份開始討論要漲到四月份漲到現在人民的訴求沒有被回應嘛獨大又獨裁所以必須要改這是第一個點第二更重要為什麼講到公開透明而且民間聲音要出來你到目前你是要回應人民的聲音啊我相信部長大概聽了一百次以上很多民間的這個需求"},{"start":5521.267,"end":5537.617,"text":"現在我們的能源結構有沒有問題?為什麼一定要挑這時候要漲?漲這個幅度多大?有沒有一個解釋?到目前也沒有詳細的解釋啊。買電有沒有買太貴啊?核能要不要用啊?部長可能上任到現在被問了一百次。署長跟文生大概被問了一千次以上了吧?"},{"start":5538.217,"end":5539.438,"text":"公開透明化公開透明化公開透明化"},{"start":5561.954,"end":5585.196,"text":"包括前程直播,更重要的人民有那麼多綱的疑問,買電也沒買太貴,核酸、核能真的不能用嗎?你的結構是什麼?你要回應人民啊。謝謝。謝謝乞丐委員。接下來請富坤齊總召,請發言。謝謝院長。我想今天的討論就非常的理想。部長也是在這裡啊,聆聽各政黨表達的意見。"},{"start":5586.69,"end":5612.522,"text":"我特別強調2017年執行到現在2017年執行到現在的原因也是立法院來定定的當時的這些遊戲規則啊就是事實上立法院終究就是代表百分之百的民意來做所有各種聲音的表達那現在我們重點是我們的能源政策是不是符合目前所有產業的發展"},{"start":5616.004,"end":5638.438,"text":"以及民生的需要是不是能夠完全來符合?而且民生是不是能夠承受這樣的一個波動?這個都是可以公開討論的。過去的制度是立法院來制定的,現在當然是可以。我要特別強調一下,"},{"start":5639.622,"end":5649.764,"text":"我們要謝謝今天我們在討論過程當中不斷地在強調一件事情強調一件事情叫專業我想我們部長是很專業的一直強調專業專業我非常認同專業但是今天郭部長說可能當然是一個選項馬上被執政黨打臉專業的意見有聽到嗎"},{"start":5669.13,"end":5693.606,"text":"所以我們必須來省思而且我們今天做一個負責任的在野黨我們怎麼會讓國家台電要倒閉誰負責就是因為我們認為如果倒閉誰要負責所以我們很負責任在明天由國民黨來排審國民黨的提案和珊要不要研議現在我們擔心台電會不會倒"},{"start":5697.197,"end":5720.291,"text":"財業黨提議．民進教育委員會審查這應該是執政者來擔心的今天我們財業黨在費心有沒有月主帶袍但我們不會覺得因為這個就是國家的事情這是財業黨應該要做的事情所以我要特別表示臺電如果倒怎麼辦我們大家一起面對"},{"start":5721.699,"end":5742.976,"text":"為什麼這兩年我們中央政府到底補助了多少錢一千億、兩千億、三千億、四千億為什麼要補助因為台電可能會倒這麼大的虧損要怎麼解決這是花人民的錢我們可以當作沒有看到嗎所以說這個部分我們一定"},{"start":5744.031,"end":5768.349,"text":"是未來是不是無底洞?」我們明天已經排了這個核酸是否研議的這個審查還有整個再生能源這整體的政策這是應該可以公開來討論的發生了這麼多的社會的這些衝突跟兇殺的事情這個當然是要來面對但是我還是要表達立法院一定是最後的捕手"},{"start":5770.265,"end":5791.677,"text":"這有各種的聲音,百分之百的名義是在國會。我們當然尊重專家學者,但如果專家學者一句話就講完,那專家學者是誰請的?到底有沒有各個政黨都有邀請專家學者?組成是怎麼組成的?"},{"start":5793.343,"end":5817.471,"text":"還有一個最後我還是要表達,如果專家學者可以審議任何一切事情的話,以後國家總預算,那專家學者來審議就好了。法律的修訂專家學者來審議就好了。那國會做的是什麼?國會當然是最後的捕手。所以我們不可以否定國會它有的功能,跟它應有的責任,好不好?"},{"start":5818.562,"end":5844.291,"text":"福建總召,現在請柯建民總召請發言。經濟部郭部長請準備。好,下面就行政部門請說明。好,請柯總召。主席、各位同仁。海淀的電價問題長期以來就是一個很糾葛的問題。這當然攸關了所有人員政策,包括過去從民國49年,也就是1960年的時候就有一個公司。"},{"start":5845.211,"end":5861.748,"text":"但已被檢討,同時沒有遵循,後來行政院由於公眾事業審議委員會改為主議處。我們今天要談的就是說,我們在這裡針對剛才副總召最後的談話,他說專家來審查這個"},{"start":5866.912,"end":5888.009,"text":"公司的法．事由．立法院一算以當專家來審查．這兩個不可以類比的。審查一算法案是立法院我們是憲法所賦予的責任。那憲法有三條,立法院一決法律案、一商案。所以兩個不能說一生氣起來就跳動的那種比喻。"},{"start":5890.111,"end":5890.271,"text":"三、研商有關"},{"start":5910.253,"end":5925.427,"text":"我剛才講過本來就是有公視﹖後來公視沒有實施﹖後來主力出去那時候還有公共事業審議委員會等等太多了但是呢到一百一百零六年的時候二零一六年的時候"},{"start":5926.721,"end":5933.908,"text":"行政院長陳忠、經濟部長施言翔,到底現在有沒有公事?因為執政者都在考,不管哪一黨執政"},{"start":5943.797,"end":5963.87,"text":"法律及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律政策及法律"},{"start":5965.45,"end":5989.242,"text":"財黨天天也挑戰政政黨．三十年的政府歷史一再重複地發生．所以二零一二十二十四月份的世界市場我就問．時任行政人員叫陳聰．那經濟部有誰．經濟部可能就是石岩祥．這些人都還在．那現在電家到底有沒有公司．以前不是有公司嗎．我們現在到底會怎麼來訂那電家調整的．"},{"start":5991.615,"end":6019.163,"text":"公司已經現在沒有再用,審議委會有,現在審議委會又凌晨死亡。所以這引發了一些問題出來。所以那時候我們在野,在野的時候我們一直挑戰這個東西讓它徹底解決。每一個人在過程中每一個人都撐壓過,要徹底解決,所以一直搞到什麼?"},{"start":6020.479,"end":6033.432,"text":"我們知道馬英文曾經動腦間架,造成裁定嚴重損失。所以趕快後來,他就送進來了。二、一、一二的時候,四月的時候,我們總之一開始執行,我們一直公布這一題。"},{"start":6035.014,"end":6054.506,"text":"大約二零一三月九月二十七日,終於行政院把公示送進來了。我記得他送進來的時候,各黨都會協商,他也很認真,你以為要協商,查詐案變成審查案。這一審查搞多久?搞了一年多。"},{"start":6056.508,"end":6080.947,"text":"二零一三九月二十七號送來的時候,後來三途通過是什麼?二零一五年的一月二十號。這是整個過程。公司送起來立法院通過。到二零一七年的民進黨執政的時候,在電業法第四十九條的時候,二零一七年一月份,把它入法了。這個過程都很清楚。到這一屆來,"},{"start":6082.468,"end":6109.16,"text":"藍白又弄一個動腸電架,糟糕了,動腸電架怎麼辦?所以大家在那裏協商,協商就說大家後來沒有結果,要表決嘛。那現在又有電業法修正衝進來了。於是就產生電業法衝進來。但是,今天晚上還是我們FBC的張旭凱以及黃商安委員所談的就是說他們有提一個案子,當然這個案子"},{"start":6110.8,"end":6137.701,"text":"這案子我就是說將來這個有他沒有提案子齁那這個案子和國民黨案子是完全不同這要透過處理的我現在先講清楚是你的案子當然我們能夠贊成嘛我們差一點不多那國民黨事業案子國民黨說要立法院來審查全世界沒有立法院就要有了那很糟糕了這沒有人看得下去立法院委員在審查店家你知道什麼叫"},{"start":6139.355,"end":6155.92,"text":"法定人數不足、國際規模的電價問題、IPP的電價等等,等錯電價等等、成本計算等等。這是高度專業的。所以我們要了解我們今天面對的是什麼?我們都知道"},{"start":6158.441,"end":6175.07,"text":"臺電引用虧損必須要處理．所以我在草屋鄉的時候我一直跟韓院長拜託有一個追加預算一千億已經送請院長、學長已經送來我們都還沒處理要講究臺電大概有三個方法而已"},{"start":6176.281,"end":6199.99,"text":"一、因為過去資本支付太多,而且核四個問題,兩千八百多億,它在吸收了。那這個還不能認定,認定下來財電走入破產了。所以整個財電的,大家知道,當你一個公司累積超過薪資一半的時候,當然"},{"start":6201.29,"end":6203.733,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":6218.347,"end":6238.201,"text":"當然是要給它漲電價．第三、政府要對於談戀補貼每年一千億的追加預算。這一部分跟主義總署大家都討論過而且送進來所以今天我們面對就是說回到理性的裡面來講"},{"start":6239.662,"end":6265.274,"text":"今天沒有什麼人在證供為過的。我們看到齊凱和黃宗安講的都很有道理。當然他是公民公開公正的原則,過去史萊利昂曾經提過這樣的一個版本,應該是這樣。我們也提出我們最後一項的看法,最後一項的看法,裡面還包括了人員使用效益等等。我們希望說,"},{"start":6266.474,"end":6286.563,"text":"大家把所有看法其中完整一點,但是有一個原則,就是說,國民黨的案子要表明清楚,我們共同來提一個,發布審議委員說選舉專案等等,那我自己改個因,我自己再改個因,沒有問題。"},{"start":6288.064,"end":6312.88,"text":"所以希望大家今天能夠理性來討論但是國民黨那一個說要立法院來審討,那不通了,全社會都沒有了因為接下來王思琴要來這裡審,主席要來這裡審這個是高度專業的,我覺得這個是我們要信任專家,立法院可以監督沒有錯但是不是立法院拿來自己處理,立法院絕對沒有這個能力,我一同報告"},{"start":6314.141,"end":6337.452,"text":"副總統發言,接下來我們請經濟部郭部長發言,請台電曾董事長準備。海業長以及各位委員大家好。我想以下我們對這個電價審議制度做一些簡要的說明。現在這個電價公式是依據立法院一百零四年決議通過的計算公式辦理。那麼也依據立法院決議設置這個電價費率審議會。"},{"start":6342.874,"end":6368.606,"text":"審議委員會．電價審議委員會有設置十七位的委員。我想剛才其他的委員已經說明了,我就不再重複。那麼針對本案,我們的意見是這樣的。第一個,多數國家都由行政部門或電力監管機構成立審議委員會,建立電價的專業審查制度。這第一點。第二點呢,這樣會使這個電價審議委員,如果"},{"start":6372.349,"end":6382.882,"text":"不這麼做,電價審議委員會失去獨立性,也會使電價審議結果具有高度的不確定性,影響臺電財務調度,不利臺電永續經營及電網強韌建設工作。"},{"start":6389.309,"end":6415.626,"text":"第三、因為電價的不確定,產業無法估算財務成本,會影響產業投資決策,對於社會以及經濟活動的穩定都會產生不好的結果。所以我們的結論是這樣的,如果專家學者能夠超過二分之一,我們行政單位是可以接受的。以上。謝謝經濟部國務長的說明,現在請台電曾董事長請說明。"},{"start":6421.278,"end":6422.68,"text":"事上任何的公司在編制"},{"start":6441.843,"end":6443.484,"text":"條文修正草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":6458.231,"end":6478.387,"text":"作法債判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判"},{"start":6481.75,"end":6482.511,"text":"條例草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":6508.089,"end":6522.196,"text":"可以去做後續相關的安排。」確實是我們在考慮整個電價設定的時候的一些用心。那最後我要跟院長也跟各位報告,就是很多委員不斷的問就是說我們電價成本結構等等是不是應該公開,台電的預算就會送立法院。我們是願意,但是資料很多,如果委員需要詢問或怎麼樣,"},{"start":6532.1,"end":6538.591,"text":"還有包括我們一千億的追加預算,如果有要審查,臺電公司一定善盡責任來跟大院做詳細的報告。謝謝。"},{"start":6547.02,"end":6550.883,"text":"三、研商有關〈刑事條例草案〉及刑事條例草案．三、研商有關"},{"start":6571.121,"end":6596.046,"text":"他就需要被特別關注,桃園也是,那我們會針對這一些需要特別關注的地區提早做一些換線的工作,於是也有討論到怎麼樣增加勞動力的問題在包商的部分。另外一個是高關注的地方就是我們有些重要的公共設施,事實上這次是桃機,大家如果還記得大概一個多禮拜以前,一兩個禮拜以前是松山,"},{"start":6596.866,"end":6602.064,"text":"他都是內部電路的故障而且他停你只要一看他停的是局部不是全部"},{"start":6603.072,"end":6628.809,"text":"通常都是內部電路問題比較多不會是台電因為台電是外部的他如果一停會是比較全面性的然後不會是單點的停那當然如果說有一些電路故障台電站在服務客戶的立場尤其是關鍵設施不管是醫院、醫院跟交通設施台電都會主動進去協助排除問題、排除障礙"},{"start":6629.429,"end":6630.27,"text":"條例草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":6642.645,"end":6643.766,"text":"條文修正草案．事由．一、研商有關"},{"start":6659.718,"end":6662.38,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":6686.241,"end":6702.888,"text":"下游切換﹖切換只是順庭一分鐘﹖一分鐘之後可能就是導致顯示器出了問題﹖大概是這個原因﹖是他們內部的問題。這個切換在停了一分鐘造成那邊是停了多長時間?他內部維修切換,他內部有些因為跳電所以基礎跳掉了。"},{"start":6708.53,"end":6709.311,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．"},{"start":6721.322,"end":6739.868,"text":"民進黨跟臺灣民進黨已經打成一個基本上差不多已經打成一個共識就黃國昌總召要不要補充說明好那現在就是國民黨那邊要是你所謂的共識就是現在國民黨跟民進黨都一致了那用我們的版本不要急那那個民進黨那一塊可以用類似負債賊這樣來提"},{"start":6741.568,"end":6769.739,"text":"請稿委,請稿委,你不要急,你很少來參加條例協商,所以你有點急,不要急,聽我說完。現在我們國民黨團現在兼職立法院這個,我先休息五分鐘,這五分鐘之內大家開始來進一步來協商。如果五分鐘之後,我們沒有辦法達成大家彼此共識的話,那我就要宣布我們出這個方式,好不好?好,來休息一下大家討論一下,因為我們也有機會達成共識。好,請休息一下。"},{"start":6779.48,"end":6779.99,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7400.271,"end":7402.393,"text":"財政部副部長、郭副部長、郭副部長、郭副部長、郭副部長、郭副部長、郭副"},{"start":7416.667,"end":7419.348,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":7442.725,"end":7465.675,"text":"接下來我們現在進行第二項協商議題考試院人事同意權案相關事宜先跟各位黨邊來報告一下總統是五月三十一日被提名人名單送我們本院同意本院在六月七日經院會決定交付全院委員會審查另外"},{"start":7466.926,"end":7491.712,"text":"本院新修正的職權刑事法已在6月24日總統公布,現在進行憲法法庭的處理程序中。三、基於上開的情況,到底考試院的同意權案我們要適用新法還是舊法,要先聽聽各位黨團的意見。不過在聽各位黨團意見之前,我先請幕僚單位法治局先做一個初步的說明。"},{"start":7492.782,"end":7518.4,"text":"另外針對新舊法的適用．考試委員的同意權案．我們院會時程會有是不是如何的不同．也要請幕僚單位一併為各位黨團幹部做一個說明跟分析．之後再請各黨團來表達意見．那麼麻煩請現場大家請保持安靜．我們請法治局請先做說明"},{"start":7532.111,"end":7535.052,"text":"條例草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":7540.959,"end":7568.015,"text":"正對法律適用的問題我先就兩個層面來說明第一個就是如果從一般法律適用的角度來觀察因為針對新舊法的適用中央法規標準法第十八條定有一般性的原則那原則上各機關在適用法規的時候如果在處理程序終結之前它所據准許的法規有變更的時候是適用新的法規那這就是一般我們所稱的實體重舊程序重新的原則"},{"start":7569.035,"end":7589.754,"text":"法務部也曾經在一百零三年曾經對這個法條做出含釋（它裡面有指出中央法規標準法是標條所稱的重新重用的原則的適用（它是指在處理程序終結前實際法規有變更者而言（那當然就是這個程序法規原則上就是依照程序重新的原則來適用（"},{"start":7597.518,"end":7617.507,"text":"法務部所作的函事,重點部分我有用螢光筆註記,讓為便於閱讀。另外,所以說呢,這次《職權歧視法》有關統一權的修正條文,因為也沒有特別去命定它的施行日期,所以原則上就是適用一般施行的規定,那自總統發布日就是113.6.24上到第三日,現在已經發生了效力。"},{"start":7620.808,"end":7626.212,"text":"草案及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及保障及"},{"start":7646.465,"end":7658.455,"text":"那依照剛剛所報告的一般法律適用的法律來推論,原則上就是適用這個修正後的新法來行使相關的程序。那因為剛剛有院長有提到,就是有些主張認為說這個相關條文因為現在還在這個釋憲程序的成立當中,那所以仍然有爭議存在。"},{"start":7668.863,"end":7693.579,"text":"那是不是應該要直接適用新法等等的這方面的主張?那剛剛說明了就是說這個修正條文現在已經是有效施行公佈的一個狀態那本院是不是可以自主決定說來適用舊法或者是來適用直接適用新法或者是為了避免爭議來先適用舊法的程序的部分這四部分可以參考"},{"start":7694.6,"end":7717.565,"text":"大法官前面曾經作出釋字第三百四十二號解釋．那這位我也幫各位把印了附件的第二頁．有用螢光註記的部分也給各位參考．那這裡面提到了就是說．他的解釋理由書已經明文的指出．國會在行使立法權的程序．這些一時規範要如何進行是屬於我們國會的內部事項．"},{"start":7719.745,"end":7721.208,"text":"法律上稱之為國會自律或國會自治。各國國會的議事規範,除了在適用之際,"},{"start":7730.305,"end":7731.425,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":7752.29,"end":7755.371,"text":"條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":7782.135,"end":7790.544,"text":"第二件重點就是因為新舊法會牽扯到我們院會的時程會有非常大的不同我們請議事處的高處長請跟各位黨團幹部報告"},{"start":7799.366,"end":7820.113,"text":"法治局對於新法及舊法的適用,認為有國會自律原則的適用,當然不必有所謂的嚴格規定。為了要方便各位黨團幹部去了解說過去舊法時期或新法時期有什麼不同,在時程上我來做一個初步說明。各位"},{"start":7821.594,"end":7836.427,"text":"黨編手上有一個舊的時期的那個考委同意權案．也就是說上一次的那個黃榮春．也就是目前的考試院長黃榮春．跟這個周鴻燊副院長．那時候我們在一百零九年的時候．在院會的處理方式是公聽會．"},{"start":7837.928,"end":7839.489,"text":"條例草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":7860.063,"end":7860.704,"text":"相關事宜相關事宜相關事宜相關事宜"},{"start":7884.64,"end":7901.981,"text":"的口頭詢問跟說明。」所以我們在全院委員會的公聽會跟審查部分,總共的工作時間是運用兩天半的時間。那全院委員會一審查完畢,隔天院會就立刻進行同意權案的一個無記名投票。"},{"start":7902.501,"end":7926.118,"text":"所以整個全院委員會的一個審查時間．包括院會總共使用的是三天半的時間．在舊法時期它是比較緊密．但是新法的規定因為跟舊法有一些主要的不同點．在我們6月24號總統公布的新法．它有規定說這個同意權案自交付審查之日起．期間是不能少於一個月．"},{"start":7927.038,"end":7953.325,"text":"審查時也必須針對被提名人去進行分開跟分別的審查跟說明。」換言之說舊法時期我們把四個五個這樣子去把它一起列席一起詢問這個當然就是在新法時期就可能要做分別的處理那另外就是全院委會審查完略隔天要不要進行同意投票答案是不行的新法規定是全院委會審查完略之後"},{"start":7954.105,"end":7980.142,"text":"你離去審查報告要經過十天的等待期,院會才能夠進行同意權案的記名投票表決,跟舊的吳記名也不太一樣,要用記名投票表決。另外在全院委員會審查之前還有一個新的制度就是黨團可以跟被提名人提出書面的詢問,這個書面詢問要給被提名人十天的準備時間,而且被提名人也要寫下一個"},{"start":7980.862,"end":8006.184,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．法治局有提供一個書面的解文,那全院委員會在進行口頭詢問的時候呢,這個背景人在回答問題之前也要拒絕,也要提供一個解文,所以針對解文的部分呢,我們法治局有提供一個解文的草稿,就是新法實習的解文草稿,可能要給各黨邊參考看看,現在就發下去。發給各位為幹部的手上。"},{"start":8007.329,"end":8008.75,"text":"檢查期間,依照新法規定是一定要開公聽會。」"},{"start":8025.231,"end":8044.166,"text":"這就是新法的規定因為它有一些等待期十天然後詢問也有十天所以如果我們將來決定要採用新法的話那個時程還有它的審查密度會比我們舊法時期的三天半可能會來得長一點至於說要長多少這個當然就是透過國衛之律我們來決定"},{"start":8045.487,"end":8067.99,"text":"那這個結文的部分現在是給各位黨編做參考（如果大家願意說將來新法如果真的要用的話（因為目前這個案子正在大法官的那個憲法疏通程式（如果說未來大家真的要用（對這個結文各黨團也有共識的話（那這個結文的參考格式就給大家參考（如果可以的話這個結文是拿來用的（"},{"start":8068.911,"end":8088.17,"text":"如果還沒有共識,我們是不會去在沒有黨團同意之下使用這樣的一個結文所以以上的初步報告就是說新法會比較長一點,舊法會比較快,大概是個三天半當然將來審查時程要排多長多短,就要透過國會之律來處理,以上報告"},{"start":8089.279,"end":8089.459,"text":"衆議院議員主席"},{"start":8106.4,"end":8129.702,"text":"指揮各位同仁,我想今天對於考試院的總統、院長、副院長引來質疑這考會的同情形勢,然後現在討論當然我們可以接受,但是不必跳得太痛,把所有的要結文什麼都弄出來。第一個我要講就是說,有關於我們上次"},{"start":8131.075,"end":8149.08,"text":"有關職員刑事法律委員通過以後．民進黨團以及總統府以及行政院．乃至於包括檢察院．四個單位事件齊發．也就是說那四個單位都有提出事件．同時也提出了暫時主任"},{"start":8151.121,"end":8152.542,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":8181.014,"end":8198.527,"text":"包括黃國昌委員會去、吳宗憲、翁小玲、黨團有三個會去。共用三十分鐘,我們四個單位用三十分鐘,立法院的部分用三十分鐘,立法院的部分我們就簽了一檔。這個東西已經走過去,明天下午就要處理了。所以我們今天討論這個並不適當。"},{"start":8208.581,"end":8212.303,"text":"草案及保障及保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":8232.79,"end":8255.486,"text":"實體懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、懲罰、"},{"start":8255.646,"end":8258.988,"text":"法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法"},{"start":8284.055,"end":8312.391,"text":"謝謝科建民主黨接著請國民黨團請發言好謝謝院長那我想這個剛才法治局已經講得很清楚了那我們立法院職權行使法現在已經三讀通過依照現行有效的法律我想立法院也要這個依法行政了既然職權行使法是這樣的規定那我們程序一定是重新的沒有重就的我想這個是我們法律的ABC"},{"start":8313.371,"end":8326.437,"text":"所以沒有所謂的什麼這個大法官會解釋就或者釋憲案倒是就總照的意思好像釋憲就一定會通過你是大法官你是大法官所以所以我們依照先行的職權行使法來去因為應該你的發言是這樣子我們聽到的是這樣子所以"},{"start":8336.781,"end":8339.785,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．三、研商有關"},{"start":8354.224,"end":8368.939,"text":"也是從大法官會議解釋三百四十二號就看得出來我們國會自律、國會自治我們依照我們的議事規則所訂定的相關法律依照我們大法官會議施治第三十二號就講得很清楚了"},{"start":8369.62,"end":8385.886,"text":"政院要尊重、行政院要尊重、行政院要帶頭來提副議．大法官會議其實就講那麼清楚了．整個立法的過程絕對是符合我們立法院自治的職權行使法．也符合我們國會自治的精神"},{"start":8387.313,"end":8406.566,"text":"所以我想我們整個立法院執行刑事法通過的條文．絕對沒有任何異議．我們依照我們現在的立法院的職權刑事法相關規定．對考試委員來進行相關的審查以上謝謝謝謝林思明委員的發言接下來請民眾黨請發言這個院長第一個"},{"start":8415.933,"end":8429.054,"text":"各黨團有各黨團的主張。」那我們這裡老實說這個場域也不是憲法法庭所以我覺得跟憲法訴訟有關係的部分"},{"start":8430.191,"end":8459.073,"text":"到憲法法庭不管是透過書狀還是透過言辭來加以表達在黨團協商的這個現場真的我覺得沒有什麼必要花太多的時間在辯論這件事要不然的話我覺得可能辯論個三天三夜時間都不夠用第二個部分我們法治國家就按照法律來施行在我國到目前為止還沒有創設一個制度是"},{"start":8460.686,"end":8476.256,"text":"申請憲法法庭進行法規範的違憲審查,就會導致法律凍結適用的效果。」不管是誰申請,都是一樣。就像人民對於稅法,他如果認為有違憲的意義,"},{"start":8479.614,"end":8503.829,"text":"進行裁判的時候在憲法法庭做出任何裁判以前也不會構成說我已經申請了所以我現在不用遵守相關的法規範不用繳稅這個我相信憲刑法的規定是很清楚那因此但我最後一個只有一個問題就是說不管是按照新法還是按照舊法"},{"start":8505.35,"end":8528.37,"text":"我們現在目前我們的院會按照上一次協商的結論是到七月的十六號以今天的角度來看其實就只剩下禮拜五跟下禮拜二兩天可以使用當然我了解各個黨團對接下來到底是要研會"},{"start":8529.651,"end":8546.511,"text":"還是要開臨時會有不同的主張我都尊重我們就按照議事規則來進行就好了只是說在整個時程的安排上不管是新法還是舊法當然我知道剛剛高處長做了一些清楚的說明因為新法"},{"start":8547.452,"end":8561.221,"text":"我們要求的審查密度是比較高的所以時間會長一點那舊法相對是比較鬆散時間可以把它排得緊一點但不管是長的還是短的基本上大致的時間區塊"},{"start":8563.022,"end":8585.88,"text":"是否可以稍微簡單的大家表示一下看法,那我們到底是要什麼時候做,不管我現在先不想進入啦,要開研會還是臨時會的這個爭執,這不是現在在檯面上面要處理的問題,不管是透過什麼樣的形式,我們是打算用七月的下半旬處理,用八月處理,"},{"start":8586.801,"end":8603.432,"text":"還是用九月處理．如果有一個比較大致的時間規劃的話．我相信對於本院．其他的同仁．他們在工作上面的安排．也會有一個比較清楚的方向。以上是台灣民進黨黨團的看法。"},{"start":8604.946,"end":8605.427,"text":"法律法律法律"},{"start":8627.233,"end":8629.414,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":8648.422,"end":8650.483,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":8674.415,"end":8684.873,"text":"院會之前簡單的一個程序上去議定十六號之後的相關的議事日程怎麼安排。這個議題留在那時候討論就可以了。謝謝。"},{"start":8686.676,"end":8704.873,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉賓、趙偉的發言。報告各位黨團幹部,我們《新舊法》的試用,大家意見不一,我們就擇期再寫商。法治局出您的結文格式的部分,就請大家共參。議事處會您訂一個時間上的分析,也請各位黨團幹部來參考。"},{"start":8707.035,"end":8730.902,"text":"現在已經接近中午之後我們今天有程序委員會很多黨團幹部都要去開程序委員會那中午也有到訪的外賓所以我們早上協商到此為止下午兩點我們繼續然後我們有一個打詐對不起我先把這個講完之後讓你發言我們有一個打詐釋法那是非常重要的一個法律案也要請大家踴躍出席請黃國昌總召請"},{"start":8733.103,"end":8755.778,"text":"議長,我們今天下午的協商有個預定的時間,還是把它全部處理完?兩點到三點,但是我希望能夠把它處理完畢,我們再散會,打架是法。請大家黨團要做好心理準備,可能我們明天後天也有可能要繼續召開草案協商,如果我們沒有處理完的話,好不好?"},{"start":8756.559,"end":8760.805,"text":"我講一分鐘就好。當然黃昌偉談那時候。我們曾經擦海祥過有關於從以前行動是臨時會處理的。那今天...請副分局總統請補充。抱歉喔。因為畢竟啊..."},{"start":8774.465,"end":8778.067,"text":"法案及人事同意權案相關事宜、研商有關"},{"start":8803.144,"end":8808.011,"text":"我們如果各位黨團幹部我宣布明天早上十點我們繼續協商可以嗎?黃國昌總請表示意見"},{"start":8820.998,"end":8821.498,"text":"實上明天是有委員會要進行"},{"start":8841.986,"end":8870.475,"text":"那這樣好不好請拜託大家後天時間全部空出來好嗎那個我要跟院長報告星期四司法法制委員會要排有關於反貪腐法制跟妨礙司法公正罪那所以就禮拜四的部分我必須要就是回去黨團再跟其他兩位幹部協調時間上面大家是不是能夠配合因為禮拜四的司法法制委員會"},{"start":8871.855,"end":8874.657,"text":"有重要的法案詢答．也要牌生．"},{"start":8881.214,"end":8903.646,"text":"你說你明天上午有委員會,那是專案報告嘛。只要有新的話你就先去發研究來的嘛。尤其當黨編的曹偉強一定要參加。昨天我們那個參加是有跟院長先言明在先的。從來在黨編當委員沒有說我會有委員會。你說這是第一優先嘛。因為大家都知道,你剛才自己也講清楚十二號、三十二號、十六號嘛。"},{"start":8904.586,"end":8918.891,"text":"打大司法﹑很多法案要處理﹖所以大家必須控制時間,這是黨內責任。黨內不能說我有委員會就來參加,大家一直拖著,每天都有委員會。所以我是希望就是說,黨內還是要做黨內的事情。已經到最後的時間了。"},{"start":8924.694,"end":8949.711,"text":"實践上可能明天比較適妥啦明天明天上午因為我們同時都是司法法治委員會的委員那明天那個專案報告如果委員可以早一點去安排質詢這樣那另外因為禮拜四的時間比較不妥也因為這個下午還有司法法治委員會的協商所以都會overlap這樣子對都會卡在一起但是我就說為了擔心到禮拜四都卡住明天可以先行協商"},{"start":8950.971,"end":8973.048,"text":"所以明天...吳宗憲也有排啦所以明天先協商比較...那個現在也是排在宴會上面最重要嘛對,所以明天比較好啦一定是明天後天一定要立即去協商了今天下午如果很順利打擾事法都協商完畢那我們心理壓力就減輕了所以我們做一個補充請黃國昌總長明天早上十點半"},{"start":8974.969,"end":8977.371,"text":"法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭"},{"start":8990.151,"end":9012.427,"text":"我是希望說大家可以盡量理性的來討論,盡量把時間空出來,但是確實有自然難心的部分大家都可以討論嘛。因為明天有憲法法庭的問題,那到五點,我剛才正詢黃總召,那是不是我們五點以後,到晚上十二點,我們都來協商?明天晚上?都可以談。"},{"start":9013.666,"end":9016.248,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":9041.164,"end":9042.947,"text":"我們在排這些時間的工作上面,我們都盡量配合。"},{"start":9051.482,"end":9055.284,"text":"條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．事由．立法院黨團提議．"},{"start":9073.226,"end":9096.062,"text":"就是本來委員會或現在法庭的工作結束了以後你要到晚上坐在這邊協商我都沒有問題我都沒有問題但我沒有辦法接受像柯建民委員剛剛那樣子的發言模式他的工作習慣他不去委員會所以他的時間都OK我們是習慣有要去委員會去做質詢的人"},{"start":9098.924,"end":9112.008,"text":"對我來講,柯建民你不能夠永遠都主張對你自己方便的方式。昨天下午,大家不是坐在這邊等你們嗎?你要解釋,那是你個人的解釋嘛。現實上昨天有召開..."},{"start":9124.622,"end":9145.27,"text":"我們尊重發言委員會的發言請您繼續所以我還是拉回來就是需要協商這件事情我再強調一次院長只要安排我們都會盡力的去做配合我剛發言的時候我只是很清楚的跟院長講說禮拜三禮拜四的時候我們本來排定的工作"},{"start":9146.03,"end":9165.992,"text":"各自有什麼東西,所以可能會產生衝突。」在這樣的情況下,我剛剛也說了,我會去協調黨團其他的幹部,看大家時間上面怎麼樣彼此配合,彼此安排。因為禮拜四的部分,星期四,各個委員會都還是有重要的事情。"},{"start":9166.713,"end":9187.488,"text":"在進行．事發法制委員會．等了非常久．終於反貪腐相關的法制．包括棄保潛逃．排上事發法制委員會．當然對我來講．我會希望的是禮拜四的時候．法案終於排案了．能夠在委員會裡面．好好的討論．好好的審查．"},{"start":9190.509,"end":9193.071,"text":"事由．立法院黨團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":9212.603,"end":9230.535,"text":"就不願意來協商。」所以剛剛中國國民黨黨團說那如果下午以後等到白天的事情忙完下午以後到晚上來協商我都OK都願意配合我只是現實上面把我們在白天的工作目前看到的工作時程跟院長做反應"},{"start":9231.235,"end":9232.876,"text":"條例草案．立法院黨團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":9246.981,"end":9269.679,"text":"事由．要補充發言是吧．盡量監督我想因為我們在這裡很和氣的希望針對最後有限的時間找出大家都可以同意的協商時間就這麼簡單請這個黃國昌總召不要搞得全世界你最忙立法院只有你最認真然後你還指著什麼柯總召不質詢這種事情我們都是司法法治委員會的"},{"start":9270.6,"end":9292.456,"text":"明天你要質詢、吳思耀也要質詢、我們的昭緯、鍾嘉斌也要質詢。我們只是在議案上怎麼排除,我們同時除了是個別委員,我們更是黨編。所以在工作的priority裡頭,應當有一個智慧可以去做時間的分派,去指導別人怎麼樣,我覺得這種都不需要。那更重要的是,"},{"start":9293.82,"end":9310.165,"text":"我們可以大家評評理每一次在這裡黨團協商柯建民總召永遠是從頭做到尾的人來來去去的人我就不要說了所以不要自己心中只有自己最偉大我覺得這樣都不是一個好的態度我也不想很有火氣的講話"},{"start":9311.505,"end":9312.226,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":9341.306,"end":9349.168,"text":"只是說到第九四真的還有更多的議案．可能時間上是更緊繃．大家心裡更有壓力．所以明天是合一的時間．10點到12點可以先來進行我嘗試性提一個建議．大家試試看"},{"start":9359.071,"end":9373.421,"text":"我們今天下午因為只有到三點三點之後有黨團幹部有事情因為你跟我溝通過意見所以我為什麼要宣布二到三其實我是希望今天下午全部推但有黨團幹部有事情每個人都有不一樣的事情那我就不數名字了那要不然就這樣"},{"start":9375.097,"end":9389.422,"text":"我們禮拜四早上十點半開始協商然後一直繼續下去把所有該協商法案一起合成那明天司法法制委員會跟下午的憲法法庭大家就專心去做萬一"},{"start":9391.303,"end":9411.944,"text":"我再重複一遍,萬一某一位黨團幹部有事情,你就請其他黨團幹部來代替一下,我相信絕對都沒有問題的。如果大家都同意的話,我們就後天早上十點半,我們就從頭一氣呵成,因為第二天禮拜五我們就要開始,最後清倉法案清倉日開始了。"},{"start":9413.439,"end":9413.819,"text":"草案．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":9441.042,"end":9451.114,"text":"三點鐘結束之後,我們禮拜四早上十點半,我們就一氣呵成,好不好?那我們下午兩點見,好謝謝。"},{"start":18403.415,"end":18414.58,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝各位黨團幹部,也謝謝各位今天歷齡的關心本案的立法委員同仁,也謝謝各位行政部門所有的列席的官員跟閣員。"},{"start":18416.124,"end":18441.807,"text":"那首先我們先介紹一下今天列席的各位閣員。第一位內政部劉部長,熱情歡迎。經管會彭主委,熱情歡迎。數位部、速發部黃部長,歡迎。法務部黃長賜,歡迎。行政院打擊詐欺辦公室林之義,歡迎您。司法院黃副秘書長,歡迎。"},{"start":18443.691,"end":18446.004,"text":"國家通信傳播委員會黃主任秘書"},{"start":18451.994,"end":18480.182,"text":"跟黨團幹部和各委員報告,我們繼續進行黨團協商主要是內政委員會報告並案審查行政院函請審議。台灣民眾黨黨團及陳廷飛立委十六人分別凝聚了《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案》以及今本會本院近乎二讀與相關提案並案協商之本院核心存等二十一人委員所凝聚的"},{"start":18481.143,"end":18484.209,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．現在"},{"start":18486.046,"end":18510.072,"text":"有關本法案的協商．內政委員會的吳昭吉委員齊銘已經於6月28日先行召集第四協商會議。當天協商的結果保留第八條、第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文,其餘的條文均已經有了共識。為了節省各位黨團代表寶貴的時間,我們集中先討論"},{"start":18512.673,"end":18536.375,"text":"這四條的焦點,所以因此建議各位我們先行討論上述保留這四條條文,如果大家對已經有共識的條文還有意見的話,我們回過頭來再繼續討論。請問各位黨團幹部跟各位委員有沒有意見?我們還有今天有在提,修正同意,我們先把這個保留條文,保留條文我們現在金管會彭主委也到了,"},{"start":18536.895,"end":18537.696,"text":"案．草案．草案．草案．草案"},{"start":18558.118,"end":18582.39,"text":"所擬、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案等五案．從委員會抽出淨富二讀．以相關議案並案提倡．我們一併來討論。但我想建議先討論這四條有保留的好嗎?因為今天彭主委也來了。然後徐毅臻委員是主要所提出這保留的,也在現場。我們就這四條討論完,如果一切順利,我們就往下推進。那再有意見我們再回頭再說,好不好?好,那我們先請這個"},{"start":18585.849,"end":18589.6,"text":"徐宇峥委員你現在保的條文是你提的請先提出你寶貴意見"},{"start":18591.704,"end":18593.025,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":18615.37,"end":18619.692,"text":"罪行政院打架辦公室主任,這個NFT沒有主管機關,那是因為本席提出之後才知道這個漏洞。"},{"start":18632.637,"end":18633.917,"text":"罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行"},{"start":18659.062,"end":18663.784,"text":"犯罪危害防制條例草案 、洗錢防制條例草案 、「洗錢防制條例草案 、洗錢防制條例草案 、洗錢防制條例草案 、洗錢防制條例草案 、洗錢防制條例草案"},{"start":18685.714,"end":18701.34,"text":"詐騙集團成立的假媒體公司所發出的新聞內容一模一樣。這個詐騙模式在二零二三年也遭香港政府監管警告的JPEX詐欺案類似,都是類似採取唐氏變局的做法來吸金。當時台灣的一些區塊鏈的媒體跟網紅也都參與了JPEX的宣傳。"},{"start":18706.662,"end":18707.322,"text":"犯罪危害防制條例草案（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":18724.427,"end":18753.044,"text":"事無忌憚地進行NFT的詐騙。」因為目前的法律還沒有跟得上這個技術發展的腳步所以我在這次在行政院提出的這個詐防條例的時候在我的要求之下已經首次指定了金管會作為管理機關那這個部分就是現在目前是指定這個金管會但主要內容是為了防範洗錢那當然這個本身我們是值得肯定"},{"start":18753.584,"end":18754.324,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":18774.83,"end":18775.61,"text":"刑罪危害防制條例草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":18798.939,"end":18813.746,"text":"到底金融投資跟支付性質到底哪一個是這個明確的定義那監管會是認為說可以用個案來管理可是因為如果用個案來管理的話其實因為我覺得法律的那個定義太模糊而且很太多的法律的不確定性"},{"start":18814.506,"end":18840.054,"text":"所以在這邊我是希望說既然金管會現在作為這個主管機關那也希望說可以強調一下說什麼叫做金融投資什麼叫做支付性質比如說我舉個例子來說好了我們現在投資這個維納麗莎的假設說我買了一個蒙娜麗莎的微笑的一個NFT那它現在可能只是十個泰達幣也許我預期它後來會漲成五十個泰達幣"},{"start":18840.854,"end":18841.495,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案。」"},{"start":18857.396,"end":18858.937,"text":"條例草案、刑事變局條例草案、刑事變局條例草案、刑事變局條例草案、刑事變局條例"},{"start":18879.944,"end":18881.345,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯"},{"start":18902.542,"end":18930.112,"text":"請經管會彭主委就徐正委員所提的請您做一個答覆,謝謝。好,院長、各位委員,在座的各位先進,大家好。這邊剛好徐委員有提到就是說,確實我們在審查的時候呢,針對原來的條文並沒有特別羅列NFT,那經過我們在協調的時候呢,我們是有發現說確實NFT它有獨特的數據資料,它的憑證跟認證不能互換,可能有被不法分子作為詐騙的標的,"},{"start":18932.113,"end":18960.32,"text":"關於這點的分工,行政院已於在113年6月12日會同速發部開會,認為本會依國際洗錢組織 的指引,納管了具金融投資或支付性質的NFT,並擔任主管機關。剛剛徐政委員已經做過說明,行政院我們在做過協調,就根據國際組織 的指引,就是對金融投資或支付性質的NFT進行納管。"},{"start":18962.326,"end":18978.024,"text":"在本次的那個我們的協調內容裡面希望就把NFT明定在我們的立法說明裡面所以我們在立法說明裡面已經修正了把這個名詞呢把它明白的寫進去增列就是鑒於擁有獨特數據資料且其憑證"},{"start":18981.227,"end":18999.187,"text":"及認證不能互換之非同質化代幣NFT﹐亦有可能進行不法交易之用途﹐依國際防制洗錢金融行動工作組織﹐就我剛才報告的FATF﹐發布的原則﹐其運用於金融投資或支付用途時﹐亦屬於前階虛擬資產的範疇﹐"},{"start":19001.67,"end":19003.131,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":19029.494,"end":19044.412,"text":"根據他們的這個方式、定義是我們就來納管,而且這也明確,我們在書法部這邊應該都沒有問題。所以我們想說,如果在這樣的一個架構之下,就需要有人關心那個問題,我們就完全遵照國際組織的規範來進行NFT的定義跟納管。"},{"start":19047.515,"end":19075.78,"text":"那我想這個部分應該就可以有效的做到這一點也明確的在法條上面加以說明我們希望如果這樣的話我們可以支持原來院版的提案以上謝謝彭主委的說明謝謝接下來徐政委你有說明可以嗎第二條的那個立法說明裡面"},{"start":19078.332,"end":19104.673,"text":"在那個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例的那個第二條的那個立法說明裏面補充說明。對。對。它就主要是保留的條文是剛才提到的那幾條。其實它最重要是在於說那個裏面因為如果這邊定義清楚後面的條文就全部都已經可以。那是不是那個立法說明可以發給大家看一下嗎?這個我們現在就發下去。對。"},{"start":19112.6,"end":19114.803,"text":"刑事刑事刑事刑事"},{"start":19120.815,"end":19123.817,"text":"立法院黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":19145.48,"end":19148.261,"text":"事由．立法院黨團提議．事由．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":19173.946,"end":19186.751,"text":"還有新增一個附帶決議,建於科技發展日新月異,非同質化代幣,NFT亦有遭受不法分子利用作為詐騙標的之可能。"},{"start":19190.232,"end":19211.986,"text":"為有效保障我國民眾權益,原要求金融監督管理委員會研修國際監理發展方向,釐清NFT用途屬性及國內詐騙樣態,並提出具體因應措施,於六個月內向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告。以上。來,薛委員請,有什麼意見?請。好。"},{"start":19213.79,"end":19225.032,"text":"那針對這個部分就是希望就是金管會能夠這個在立法說明之後還有這個負債決議之後能夠在六個月之內提出相關的一個報告。我只有一個問題喔,就是"},{"start":19244.58,"end":19271.528,"text":"黃國昌總召請發言,那請大家保持促進。我只是在等主委嘛,沒有關係。因為我看主委手忙腳亂的。我先給你一點時間。加在立法理由裡面說明,主要是針對NFT要納款這件事情,我們是支持的。因為它現實上面,那不是有可能。"},{"start":19273.001,"end":19292.957,"text":"成為詐騙的工具．現實上已經成為詐騙的工具了。只不過說因為我們現在第三款的部分提供虛擬資產服務的事業或人員你們主要是在這邊加上立法理由上面的定義嗎?"},{"start":19294.659,"end":19306.214,"text":"我只有一個問題是說,如果在這個專法裡面,針對因為他專法裡面在做定義的時候,他又把他refer到洗房法第五條第四塊"},{"start":19307.732,"end":19324.585,"text":"所以在洗房法第五條第四款的部分就立法理由的說明是不是要隨同一併把它增加上去因為你是從這個專法指向洗房法的定義所以可能在洗房法那個部分要配同"},{"start":19379.43,"end":19403.877,"text":"各位黨團幹部、各位委員同仁、各位觀眾我們先聽一下我們協商的結果請大家請聽一下我們照行政院提案通過那第五十七條二,照協商條文通過第二十條、第四十四條、第四十九條如附件那第二大項保留條文第八條、第十一條、第十二條、第十三條我們一樣照行政院會版本通過"},{"start":19405.835,"end":19411.782,"text":"三、通過附帶決議兩項增加一項,變三項（第四、"},{"start":19412.924,"end":19434.304,"text":"其餘所有均照審查會審查結果通過,但第二十四、二十五、四十四有三個修正動議,我們回頭再來處理一下。其餘就照審查意見通過了。第五點,條文、條字、引述條文之文字及相關法字用語,我們就授權我們議事處人員來整理。這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":19437.807,"end":19440.489,"text":"檢察及保障法草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":19468.031,"end":19482.017,"text":"現在民主進步黨現在提出二十四條的修正案。我們請民主進步黨提案的黨團請發言。委員長、各位委員、同仁。有關詐欺違反防制法提出二十四條。"},{"start":19483.997,"end":19500.299,"text":"還有二十五條兩個修正案．這個修正案的意思就是說有關在行政院版在委會審查的時候有稍微被調整過但是我們認為這個罰則的部分還是回到行政院版這個是當初二十四條"},{"start":19502.727,"end":19527.145,"text":"二十萬到兩百萬被改為二十萬到五百萬,這是我們民進黨的毫米會委員所記的,我們就念目勾通還是回到行政版本。那有關一千萬要改為兩千萬,這個我們還是建議回到行政版。但是有關於二十四條最後一項,那應該其中會有委員提來還是誰,我不知道誰提來。"},{"start":19529.003,"end":19555.734,"text":"必要時得通知評估主管機關的禁止及評估的合併評理。」這個非常嚴重。這個等一下請NC收明一下。因為NC有一些不同意見。那二十五條的部分也是華哲的部分,希望回到行政院版。但是二十五條的有一個民資那個部分,我希望也是回到行政院版。"},{"start":19556.601,"end":19570.69,"text":"但是二十五條還是最後有關於核兵力的禁止,這部分是有點失衡,很嚴重。希望這部分能夠不要列入,不要加入。"},{"start":19572.858,"end":19599.53,"text":"謝謝柯建民總召的發言。接下來哪一位委員同仁要針對二十四條、二十五條修正表達意見?好,請林思明。謝謝院長、各位委員、各位機關的代表。我想這個我們審查會通過的條文就是這個大家委員會大家一致的意見。我們現在這個民黨柯總召現在又說要回到行政院的條文的版本。"},{"start":19600.35,"end":19616.202,"text":"刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪刑罪"},{"start":19626.198,"end":19651.691,"text":"及徐毅臣委員他的版本必要時得通知評慮主管機關禁止其合併評慮。」我想這個都是非常好的一個立法。所以這個到底有何自愛難行之處?請我們相關機關做出說明,謝謝。謝謝林思明委員的補充。還有接下來哪位委員要發言?沒有的話我們請行政機關,我們劉部長跟法長,N11主委請先發言。"},{"start":19654.259,"end":19672.472,"text":"主席、各位委員、NC代表報告首先是在二十四條的部分上一次的話是因為我記得有委員是覺得說這個好像法環好像太輕了所以希望能夠就它的上限部分予以加重上一次我也有提出報告就是說因為這裡面只有這些事業"},{"start":19674.213,"end":19677.274,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．一、考試院人事同意權案相關事宜．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":19701.118,"end":19702.439,"text":"條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．事由．立法院黨團提議．"},{"start":19725.009,"end":19726.891,"text":"條文修正草案．第四十九條條文修正草案．第七條條文修正草案．第八條條文修正草案．"},{"start":19741.458,"end":19755.842,"text":"禁止核廢屏蔽或不使用屏蔽的話﹐可能它整個電信網路會當掉﹐那個結果其實很嚴重的﹐所以上次我有收到報告﹐同樣的在打造條例打造過程很重要﹐但是對於國民的通信權益﹐其實這兩者之間要去做權衡﹐"},{"start":19758.303,"end":19761.825,"text":"草案．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":19784.258,"end":19786.339,"text":"法第四十九條條文修正草案．立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":19801.787,"end":19816.815,"text":"未來就是說對於這個規定只限於故意才能夠處罰。那這個條文在講的其實是說對於那個已經有把手機移送給別人使用了"},{"start":19817.515,"end":19819.236,"text":"法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法庭法"},{"start":19841.303,"end":19845.647,"text":"刑罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":19862.501,"end":19864.662,"text":"刑證法 刑證法 刑證法 刑證法 刑證法"},{"start":19892.045,"end":19911.921,"text":"徐珍文,請繼續。針對剛剛NCC這邊提到的,我覺得好像很像在幫業者說話,而不是站在被詐騙的人的立場。因為為什麼會提到說要限制他的評估,就是因為現在詐騙這麼猖獗,那其實這個我想電信單位可能要負很大的一個責任。"},{"start":19912.882,"end":19913.783,"text":"草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．事由"},{"start":19938.449,"end":19957.282,"text":"還是要請主任再說明一下我剛剛大概理解你剛剛對於法則還有對於這個禁止對於這個合配頻率的部分的禁止是都是希望回到電管法的規範而且盡可能一致所以它就會比較均衡然後回到它和平的比例原則簡單來講"},{"start":19959.127,"end":19959.888,"text":"條例草案（事由．立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":19978.823,"end":19980.004,"text":"犯罪危害防制條例草案．事由．立法院團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":20004.854,"end":20010.951,"text":"當然民進黨是同意你的說法,但是你可能在這個部分還要再進一步的說服委員們。"},{"start":20012.415,"end":20013.696,"text":"刑罪危害防制條例草案．事由．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":20041.633,"end":20054.802,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":20069.571,"end":20070.632,"text":"刑罪危害防制條例草案．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":20080.68,"end":20103.502,"text":"我們現在請鍾嘉斌委員請發言我向追問竹密因為我們先看這個條文它在前一項它是訂了二千萬以下的划環這是一個行政處分那剛剛陳儒剛剛竹密所說因為這所謂的頻率主管機關禁止其合配之頻率剛剛說到行動業者他所使用的頻率是他透過飆售方式取得的"},{"start":20104.002,"end":20105.203,"text":"犯罪危害防制條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．"},{"start":20129.935,"end":20137.066,"text":"事不在於行政處分之下的範疇可以做的。」第二個,那麼所謂的禁止其合佩之頻率,因為它目前是"},{"start":20138.106,"end":20160.112,"text":"行業者疏於管理,讓人使用詐騙。因為這樣的情況之下,我們給他處分的,是讓他禁止其使用。整個這個業者禁止他使用他所標示到的評普的內容之後,他整個所有的服務的上班用客戶都會當機,就不能使用了。那這個作為你剛剛說的是,手段跟目的上是否橫貧?"},{"start":20161.132,"end":20175.72,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":20189.721,"end":20193.342,"text":"行政院的版本﹖一百萬到一千萬可以連續處罰﹖我想大概還沒有企業會因為配合詐團而願意被連續處罰一千萬的﹖"},{"start":20213.968,"end":20233.249,"text":"犯罪危害防制條例草案．事上已經是授予主管機關．授予行政機關一個很大的權限．能夠罰到一千萬．而且我可以連續的處罰．大概還沒有哪一項的詐欺能有這麼高的收益．還要再加上一個．如果說假設真的我要去"},{"start":20234.19,"end":20250.654,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":20263.057,"end":20273.267,"text":"受監察有關這麼大的一個權限來禁止它回歸平地﹖我想大概在就龍龍中委員所說的﹖在手段目的之間﹖我們真的要取得一個平衡了﹖那個有一千萬可以連續處罰,這樣應該是夠了﹖"},{"start":20281.416,"end":20283.918,"text":"議員長,我想我們還是會堅持這個維持原就是我們現在這個審查會通過的條文"},{"start":20296.326,"end":20298.728,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":20319.487,"end":20321.428,"text":"罪行及保障條例草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":20345.853,"end":20370.471,"text":"除了該獎可以連續罰以外,但是我們在必要時用最嚴厲的手段,如果你一直在犯,講不會聽,那我就禁止你這個評例去使用。」我想這跟他什麼飆不飆到沒有關係,這就是我們政府打詐的一個決心。所以我是認為說,而且是必要時,你一直罰不聽的時候是最後的手段,一定要有這個最後的手段,否則他就是講,罰錢他不怕。"},{"start":20371.992,"end":20373.835,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":20385.044,"end":20405.661,"text":"謝謝林思明委員發言,接下來我們請柯建民總召請發言好,我們要看一下齁,他這個手,一個是假所規範,比如說KYC啦,比如說漫遊啦,那些都是這些東西啦,並不是,假如是要把指揮者打造指令推給這個電信公司的話,那我們接下來科技正常法也不必了"},{"start":20406.381,"end":20411.264,"text":"最後的手段：立法院黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":20433.596,"end":20459.828,"text":"政府要做的事情還很多,哪有這種簡單的一個把它推過,它是經過飆售的,所以這個要有很平原則,你發一千萬已經很重了,一千萬只是客戶,所有來申請的客戶就KYC,因為做好KYC,還有他就漫遊,他出國以後你會不會把他停下來。有一些東西是因為有國際電信規範,我們不一定想怎麼做就怎麼做了。"},{"start":20460.309,"end":20462.396,"text":"所以了解這個是一個很複雜的一個東西 我說很簡單"},{"start":20467.039,"end":20473.843,"text":"這不是這樣搞的,人家這個特許行業還去飆上千億飆來的,那整個AI網路世界,你這個東西什麼叫必要值?我跟你講,假如說這樣的話,我們以下打到四我都不去談了。"},{"start":20491.067,"end":20492.589,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．國民黨團提議．四、研商有關"},{"start":20512.691,"end":20532.676,"text":"包括今天包括坦白講,我想各部會都來了,國務會也來了,政委會也來了,新市長席也來了,年政部都來了,它是整個國家都要去處理的東西,就他們簡化他們講的那樣發動,反正出台時都把電視關開就好了,沒有這麼簡單的一回事,你就是這樣,我是覺得這要有一種和平原則。"},{"start":20542.796,"end":20558.161,"text":"我看這個法條的文字我必須要老實講就是說二國一本身我有點困惑因為他通知他禁止其核被頻率到底是指的是向未來"},{"start":20559.523,"end":20587.293,"text":"還是包括過去,你如果說今天是已經拿到頻率的廢紙或者是撤銷,那真的很嚴重,我也反對,因為這個就沒道理,人家已經拿到了東西,你要怎麼把它給弄掉,但如果他只是作為一個未來的,那就不牽涉到已經拿到頻率既有使用者權益保護的問題,"},{"start":20590.569,"end":20615.424,"text":"從這個法條的文字上面我老實講我有點看不太出來它禁止的是既有的還是未來的如果禁止的是既有的那的確會造成很多人因此而受影響但如果不是禁止既有的既有的我們也要撤銷我也沒有要廢止但我只是要影響它未來的"},{"start":20616.169,"end":20617.189,"text":"條例草案及保障法草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":20644.191,"end":20646.492,"text":"法定人數不足、法定人數不足、法定人數不足"},{"start":20665.217,"end":20679.807,"text":"注冊服務可以運作．影響到業者就包含全部的客戶．現在A公司、B公司、C公司取得這些頻率合配．它是向主管機關去取得．而且是透過標誤的權利．如果按照剛剛黃總統的說法．請安心說明一下"},{"start":20680.447,"end":20680.687,"text":"合併、頻率合併（"},{"start":20698.01,"end":20700.572,"text":"刑罪危害防制條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．"},{"start":20715.044,"end":20735.528,"text":"現在是要來參與,現在只有身家而已,你換什麼法以後,換什麼罪行或是換了什麼規則以後都不能來標籤,現在有沒有這個東西?同時要請提案委員說明一下,因為我們要搞定提案委員是,你認為這個可行嗎?這部分我們本來就指說未來標收的部分"},{"start":20743.527,"end":20769.923,"text":"那NCC黃主委你辛苦了,你再解釋一下吧。黃主委面臨。過去的話確實是沒有把違規紀錄當作失格,當作來參與投票資格的這樣一個限制。我覺得這也是一個立法上的選擇。但是說實在話以後頻率只會越用越多。而且電信事業其實是一個資本密集的一個事業。那個真正有能力去標這麼貴的頻率的其實也不是很多。"},{"start":20770.743,"end":20796.492,"text":"那我自己是覺得說我們打造還是那句話我們打造雖然很重要但是以限制一個失業的發展當作手段我覺得其實長遠來看的話還是有一個手段目的不平衡的問題當然我覺得這是一個立法上的選擇因為這不是立法選擇的問題而已你一罪要兩罰嗎?他換手罰你就罰他什麼錢?"},{"start":20797.642,"end":20799.403,"text":"刑罪危害防制條例草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":20825.14,"end":20854.038,"text":"所以我認為我們今天所在目的要弄一個平衡有這樣的寫法的法律好像政府什麼事情就是推給業主而已業主不應該承擔的東西哪來承擔這樣的話也沒有辦法解決問題的每一個法也不應該是一罪兩法而且第二法是一個完全的手段這個要小心一點我認為大家是要斟酌一下"},{"start":20856.995,"end":20882.47,"text":"對,好,謝謝柯建民總召的發言。那我想等一下大家私底下溝通一下,我們今天掌握時間,因為我們等一下還有很重要的打詐釋法要討論。我們要準備要做一個結論。我喊休息三分鐘之後,我們私底下來溝通一下,好嗎?四十四條等一下,先把二十四、二十五先要搞定,好不好?我們先把確認,要不然我們就送院會了,我等一下要做決定了。好,最後我們休息三分鐘。"},{"start":21648.073,"end":21673.456,"text":"有關的你剛才,因為還有一條嘛,就黃國昌委員所提的,是不是?有跟法務部談好了嗎?四十條談好的話就可以了。你們大家看一下。黃國昌委員先看一下。國民黨也要看一下。就是抓首腦嘛。"},{"start":21675.104,"end":21678.085,"text":"第三項修正的文字給黃總召看一下"},{"start":21693.956,"end":21703.246,"text":"我們現在是在...啊?在洗錢了嗎?在洗錢了嗎?沒有啦,結婚了,我們剛剛蓋這份。那這樣就怎樣?就是你幫忙加幾個字就好,可行性。這是第三個。"},{"start":21717.312,"end":21722.016,"text":"對、等、知可行性、等、知可行性、等、知可行性．對．對．對．對．對．對．對．對．"},{"start":21781.786,"end":21794.08,"text":"再一溝通一下好不好好,謝謝各位黨團幹部、各位委員同仁、各位行政官員24條、25條沒辦法達成公示,我們保留送院會處理現在再溝通了,這個很嚴重了,現在再談一下這四條,我們是沒問題啊不是不是,在這個"},{"start":21807.107,"end":21809.59,"text":"刑事條例文修正草案．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":21825.06,"end":21840.628,"text":"本黨委員剛才都在場（但是彙整大家的意見當然柯總召有強烈的表達但是我們認為說連續罰是沒有錯王美惠委員提高把一千萬的罰則變成兩千萬那個我們尊重就是說到底"},{"start":21851.195,"end":21872.211,"text":"到底要不要禁止其合配頻率這個問題啊?我們覺得這個還是要一個約束的方法。當然柯總召覺得說他這個投資是很大的。那這個第二類的出問題到底我們這個頻率要怎麼處理?我們可以參照柯總召的意思,但是我們還是要修正一下。"},{"start":21873.407,"end":21875.847,"text":"草案及保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":21900.253,"end":21927.643,"text":"這問題很嚴重啦,問題我也了解嘛。我們現在二、電信連電信管理員二、電信都沒有在管。整個的,它裡面包括KYC,包括這個漫遊的資料等等,都是一個小問題。但是呢,它有嚴重的時候,已經從一千還到兩千,你要再繼續調照的話,整個的,現在在外景產不是到最後,我們沒有電信公司就沒有照片,全部把它調照就好了。這不是這樣搞法嘛。"},{"start":21928.443,"end":21949.23,"text":"這我們為了經常有打他的司法,所有的法全部要下去,所有的公益都要下去了,包括洗錢防制。所以我們要看整個脫落我們環境面是怎麼改變,不是只有亂施用重點,反正到最後三家電工生兩家在嗨得了,現在AI世界到網路你把它停起來,你三家都把它停掉,就沒有照片出來。"},{"start":21952.112,"end":21974.422,"text":"這不是這個邏輯（已經加上華澤的、二人西華（華的以外還要調造的（這種案例（這能再投資上的幾數千億（因為我不是在對任何人講話（只是環境面也是如此（所以大家再想一想好不好我稍微補充完之後就（你要補充的（我補充柯總召的"},{"start":21976.403,"end":21980.666,"text":"我沒有跟他的意識...因為我們意識跟他並沒有相左啦但是這個東西我們還是要...還是要謹慎的來...謹慎的部分來處理啦接下來請沈博洋委員發言 莊銳雄委員請準備我很快30秒齁 就是說因為罰款是一個方式齁"},{"start":21999.94,"end":22000.06,"text":"刑職刑職刑職"},{"start":22027.113,"end":22053.241,"text":"我請各位再思考一下我臨時去想到像我們比如說社會法你說犯罪的場所叫你一再的處罰處罰不聽到最後才叫你停止營業但是你去把它看說我們這二十條裡面所講到的就是說前面社會法那是因為那個場所有風險可是你現在這個頻率並不是犯罪所生的要件"},{"start":22054.341,"end":22056.102,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":22074.375,"end":22075.936,"text":"刑罪危害防制條例草案．事由．立法院黨團提議．三、研商有關"},{"start":22104.455,"end":22115.123,"text":"信業者說我勒令你停止這個整個頻率的一個規範,所以我請國民黨的朋友再考慮一下,再考慮一下,因為你這樣子就變成說我"},{"start":22116.374,"end":22133.82,"text":"刑政部門、警政署、檢察官、老百姓對你的期待你沒有達成,沒有達成以後我們就認為說全部都是你這個電信機關,你要負最大的一個責任,都丟給他。這也好奇怪,因為我們現在的處罰已經有加重了。"},{"start":22136.661,"end":22151.693,"text":"已經有加重了,你要把它加重到到最後是把它給停止等於類似把人家廢止這個是我認為太罪責不相符了啦已經不相符了請大家在各黨團再考慮一下"},{"start":22167.253,"end":22190.139,"text":"就是說這條案是直接可以交院會來處理雖然大家意見不一但是我們在院會處理的時候會提再修正動議會比較趨向柯總統講的這樣好不好好不好院長他已經開一個扇門了嘛他已經開了扇門這兩天我們大家談一談好不好不要說"},{"start":22197.808,"end":22200.57,"text":"法定人數不足之多,請勿模仿"},{"start":22222.208,"end":22225.892,"text":"法務部這個條文請問一下各位三個黨團以及各位列席的委員有沒有其他的寶貴意見。請黃國昌總召請發言。"},{"start":22239.644,"end":22261.114,"text":"謝謝院長,簡短的說明一下就是說從委員會開始的時候我們針對44條就提出這樣子的修正動議那其實最主要的理由是在於說在透過犯罪組織在犯這些罪的時候他本身的罪質跟他的死害"},{"start":22262.253,"end":22290.703,"text":"原原比三個人以上偶爾犯之要來得重。」但在我國的司法實務上,組織犯罪防制條例現在快要被架空了。因為都是一行為出犯訴罪名,到時候想像進合,通通都想像進合掉了。這樣子一點意義都沒有。那也導致了說,我們對於犯罪組織,特別是首腦的部分,沒有辦法給它足夠"},{"start":22292.273,"end":22308.031,"text":"威嚇的處罰。」常常我們看那個法院的判決看那個刑度慘不忍睹那因此我們針對有關於44條它在犯罪太陽的部分在犯罪太陽的部分"},{"start":22309.059,"end":22324.086,"text":"我們就希望能夠針對犯罪組織去犯這些罪的時候那我們能夠加重它的法定性所以我們提出了第四十四條的修正動議"},{"start":22325.467,"end":22353.782,"text":"那今天我剛剛法務部的次長他有提出法務部的對應的版本他對應的版本他主要的想法是說就發起組織操縱或指揮的部分他同意我們所提出來的這樣子的一個修法讓他到五年以上十二年以下併科新台幣三億元以下的罰金就這個部分我們是競表同意的"},{"start":22354.562,"end":22362.49,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪犯罪組織,或許有一些年輕人被認定到參與到那裏面,這樣子的話相對而言是不是對那些年輕人會太重?"},{"start":22374.082,"end":22399.838,"text":"給他一個機會。」我覺得這樣子的考慮跟妥協我們是可以接受的就是說針對44條我們所提出的再修正動議把當初為什麼要這樣子定實質上面的考慮現實上面的狀況跟院長還有跟各位黨團的代表來做說明跟報告不過剛剛法務部所提出來那兩個折衷的版本就是我們處罰重的"},{"start":22401.579,"end":22413.498,"text":"主要是針對首腦、針對老大那一些人,那就其他參與的部分我們還是回到本來的第一項的部分來加以處理,這個我們可以同意。」"},{"start":22415.309,"end":22435.391,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召的說明接下來各位請沈博洋發言我快速說一下就是說早期民進黨有提出一個版本直接就是三三九之四然後用這個集團加重我覺得法務部在之後可能可以考慮這一點是因為畢竟三人以上很寬鬆然後又會評價兩次那所以如果說能夠以後把它移到最前面"},{"start":22435.771,"end":22438.815,"text":"罪犯罪犯罪組織加重、刑罪組織加重、刑罪組織加重、刑罪組織加重、"},{"start":22455.717,"end":22477.325,"text":"那你上那個早就已經有處理除了防罪都有了那上一屆我們就處理掉了你等一下可以發言請問你現在要發言嗎?好請柯建民總召我想基本的方向我是認同我想了解有一個發起有一個組織有操縱或指揮這個到底是幾個人?是同一個人還是要怎麼認定?"},{"start":22478.685,"end":22482.389,"text":"不動行為太陽四種人也可能合一個人"},{"start":22490.899,"end":22510.303,"text":"麻煩請法務部簡單、惡要說明一下,然後我們就準備做處理了好不好?謝謝。更屬於各位報告,如同剛剛各位委員所說明的,這部分呢,我們就這個首腦的部分,它參與發起操縱指揮相關的詐欺集團的話,我們認為這部分非常可惡,所以我們同意這部分把它獨立成另外一種犯罪類型。"},{"start":22510.963,"end":22525.488,"text":"事與參與的部分,我們認為,如同剛剛我們黃委員講的,是不是有一般只是單純的參與,而且另外是不是會有擔心會有重複評價的疑慮,所以參與的部分是不是就維持原來條文部把它獨立成另外一個犯罪類型。以上說明,謝謝。"},{"start":22527.246,"end":22529.068,"text":"法務部說明．黨團幹部、列席委員．第四十四條就照法務版本通過。"},{"start":22546,"end":22563.653,"text":"我們協商的主題是並按審查行政院涵請審議臺灣民眾黨黨團及陳廷芬委員十六人分別凝聚詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案。二、何欣淳等二十一位立委凝聚詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案。"},{"start":22565.219,"end":22592.2,"text":"二、協商結論．一、協商通過．一、照行政院提案通過第八條、第十一條、第十二條、第十三條、第五十七條．二、照協商條文通過第二十條、第四十四條、第四十九條如附件．二、保留條文第二十四條、二十五條我們送院會處理．三、通過附帶決議三項如附件．"},{"start":22593.658,"end":22618.809,"text":"四、其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過,其中第二項附帶決議不予處理。五、委員提案及相關修正動議均列入紀錄刊登公報。第六、補充立法說明如附件。七、各黨團同意委員王美惠、徐宇珍、羅廷偉、蘇巧惠、蔡宇宜等委員"},{"start":22620.029,"end":22646.018,"text":"分別鎖定詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案等五案．從委員會抽出禁服二讀與相關提案並按在本次協商會議處理．八、院會處理時非保留部分宣讀後均予通過保留部分均暫時保留保留部分院會進行處理前由各黨團推派一位"},{"start":22646.658,"end":22666.217,"text":"一、臺灣民眾黨黨團．民進黨黨團．國民黨黨團順序輪流發言．每人發言時間為三分鐘．發言完畢後．該保留條文均不再發言．即進行各保留條文處理。以上協商結論,請問各黨團有沒有寶貴意見?"},{"start":22668.018,"end":22692.471,"text":"請柯建民總長請出言當然有意見啦!你這要一次要把他跳到崗幻樓要去表決嘛!剛才大家我剛剛分析的意思都講得很清楚!不像那些的最後再來簽,最後要講好就沒有這個所謂要表決!院長,這個民族操作還是這樣重大案子,既然副總長有保住三億,我們再去處理,時間還沒到嘛!"},{"start":22694.062,"end":22705.148,"text":"每一條都這樣簽一簽就是保障嗎?那沒有問題我們星期四早上十點半拜託各位黨團幹部我們準時來開會也非常感謝行政院內政部還有法務部各位我們十點半要繼續還要再出一場,必須要到必須要到星期四上午十點半我們繼續協商那謝謝各位行政官員列席我們現在散會"},{"start":22723.118,"end":22723.799,"text":"行事早上十點半"}]}},{"id":"16081","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16081","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a6096c40cc21ee902ac1445fc32f41448fc04f242ceca95778393f2a5b0aa65e5c115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-09T08:30:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T16:55:00+08:00","duration":30284,"影片長度":"08:24:44","委員發言時間":"08:30:16 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組裝洗產地的方式當然不能再發生但現行只有規定10項Made in Taiwan就符合補助辦法應該還要再隨時進行檢討我不知道院長對這個有什麼看法"},{"start":2199.222,"end":2224.837,"text":"部長先討論一下,我最後我會中文來,請說跟委員報告目前就是經濟部他有一個專案小組會審核那目前我知道經濟部審核通過的廠商有三家那三家都是做這個電動巴士的廠商那由縣市政府來申請那他可以自由選擇這個經濟部核准的部長因為電動巴士他是一個系統"},{"start":2225.737,"end":2246.159,"text":"他下面有很多單項的產業所以我想說目前的做法OK因為有些像電磁型我們不會做目前的做法是列出10項有這10項這台車就送去本土了然後就可以來領這個最高我該講600多萬的補助款從370到600多萬不等那我是說我們行政院應該更進一步"},{"start":2246.88,"end":2264.413,"text":"交通部經濟部甚至於相關的部會來整合起來這些系統下面的品項下次可不可以變11項12項慢慢的逐步讓這些產業在臺灣他願意在這邊在地生根這是我第一個建議第二個我們可以跟經濟部來一起來我覺得這個要快因為產業的機會稍縱即逝"},{"start":2266.674,"end":2294.607,"text":"這樣前幾年如果沒有國艦國造的話我們台灣的造船業大概現在不知道剩下誰了所以我現在講的另外一個情形是美國在5月份宣布對中國的電動車這講的就不是巴士喔所有的電動車輛科徵100%的反請交稅歐盟7月加徵最高37.6%的反補貼臨時關稅其實也是反請交稅那台灣現在是只有禁止整車進口"},{"start":2296.229,"end":2302.781,"text":"話整為零進來組裝掛台灣品牌的所在多有明明是中國車但在台灣掛台灣品牌"},{"start":2304.233,"end":2328.352,"text":"這些有些業者就會鑽這個漏洞那我要這邊提醒行政院就是中國為什麼被苛徵反請交稅三個原因除了他的安全以及資安問題以外他是用國家的資本就用中國政府的錢巨額去補貼他們的電動車產業然後形成了不對稱的競爭不對等的競爭所以被苛徵反請交稅"},{"start":2329.713,"end":2344.584,"text":"好,現在中國車遭毆滅沒辦法,印度也要趕走,他當然還要找他的市場出路。所以台灣如果不注意這個現象的話,台灣市場可能會變成他,要銷他倉庫,他現在倉庫裡面一堆啊,會變銷扣準的地方。"},{"start":2348.167,"end":2375.567,"text":"對我們的產業發展沒有幫助對台灣的經濟結構也會影響我不知道院長對於中國電動車在歐美這些國家被科徵反請銷稅台灣會不會考慮採取調查我們反請銷稅之前先要經濟部立案調查調查之後成立之後才會訂稅率就中國電動車在台灣現在看得出來有跡象開始在進來化整為零我們行政院跟交通部的態度是什麼"},{"start":2376.407,"end":2386.913,"text":"謝謝委員當然我們有注意到這一點世界上的潮流是在這樣的用關稅來保護自己國人的安全跟整個產業的生存發展那台灣在這種"},{"start":2389.531,"end":2411.561,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":2412.145,"end":2412.165,"text":"謝謝院長"},{"start":2422.725,"end":2448.026,"text":"他化整為零進來,變成臺灣,他其實是assembled在臺灣組裝,他除了洗產地會不會影響臺灣出口到其他國家的信譽以外,對於臺灣,我再強調一次,汽車產業是系統產業,它裡面有很多不同的系統,這樣子一進來之後,我們原來的業者連發展的機會都沒有,所以行政院經濟部相關的單位應該要開始啟動調查,"},{"start":2449.187,"end":2473.153,"text":"自治率偏低或者根本就是化整為零來這邊組裝鑽漏洞的要開始進行處理你如果不處理的話臺灣的產業會被讓他帶水到他現在讓他出販嘛然後我們自己也不能發展是不是院長可以開始立即處理這件事情好謝謝委員我們已經在了解那今天委員這樣的跟我們提出這樣的建議之後我們會馬上開始執行這樣的調查跟了解"},{"start":2473.833,"end":2501.671,"text":"謝謝,我們請理貿院部長請回我請速發部部長上來你邊走我邊提題目啦速發部成立以後呢我們通過了資通安全管理法修正草案好事因為不管是資安或者數位產業本來就是未來發展也是台灣的強項IT有硬體有軟體但我先請教我們部長你現在就你了解我們的資安相關人員流動率高還是低"},{"start":2503.379,"end":2529.866,"text":"如果以政府部門來講因為外面也蠻多需要人才所以是有些流動流動率其實不低喔那原因除了有外部誘因以外坦白講政府內部的資安人才不會單純因為外面薪資高就出去啦政府還是一個提供安穩就業他可以發展的空間尤其速發部這麼新的部會從各部會把這些資安人才找來他怎麼可能呆呆就跑掉呢我不知道部長就任之後有沒有去盤點這個問題"},{"start":2531.286,"end":2537.955,"text":"我們速發部資安署相關單位成立之後,把各單位的資安人才跑到你這邊來了。"},{"start":2539.416,"end":2563.275,"text":"產生第一個問題,那原來各單位的資安人才補進來了沒?補得好不好?夠不夠專業?這個我覺得院長的高度,因為資安就是國安,資安動輒損失千百億啊。我們書發部一成立,各單位都找來了嘛。那找來之後呢,原來單位空缺的資安人員補的到底是什麼樣的人?這是第一個問題。"},{"start":2564.309,"end":2585.458,"text":"第二個,這個蘇發部的資安人員相關的人才進來之後,業務量跟人員的比例相不相當,跟原來期望一不一樣,正在磨合,因為這是新的步伐。我數位發展、資安正在磨合當中,又新增了很多業務,包含剛才院長揭示的打炸。"},{"start":2586.513,"end":2589.595,"text":"我想一部分對沒有錯啦但是我們也有一些這個新的比如說我們有說新的考試類別"},{"start":2611.63,"end":2634.566,"text":"來多多爭取這個人才。那我們另外也有訓練,包括資安的專職人員的訓練。部長,資安的專業能力除了要新,還要累積經驗。資安人才經驗其實很重要。如果他不斷的走,我又招募新的。經驗不能傳承在單位,我們人才變成是幫人家做新兵訓練。所以我會建議院長跟部長這裡,盤點一下速發部現在的業務跟人員。"},{"start":2639.97,"end":2652.338,"text":"是不是該適度的在不影響總額或者相關的方式下去注意勞役分配的問題。否則一個新的部會還沒有新的發展人員的穩定其實很重要。沒有你新的業務、新的人"},{"start":2654.278,"end":2673.038,"text":"阿三、五、五時又一直換人換人的話,部長不好幹喔,業務也沒辦法推動。所以本期今天用這個題目提醒院長跟部長。接下來我要請教,因為今天時間比較長。我要謝謝卓院長、卓文泰院長就任沒有滿月就來到臺南的歸人沙倫。那天我在那邊我聽得是很感動。"},{"start":2674.379,"end":2697.246,"text":"當時宣布是在沙崙這裡,因為沙崙原來就是綠能、AI、IoT、醫療、生技,大概都在那個區塊。我們那裡不管是成大醫院,或者是像台積電的宿舍訓練人才等等,都在台南高鐵站的後站這個地方蓬勃發展。那你那時候宣布要設置AI園區,就設在這裡。"},{"start":2698.424,"end":2725.51,"text":"那我這一段時間我詢問了各單位到底這個AI園區是啥是有一個園區是有一個項目還是有硬體有產區有產業園區等等我不知道到目前為止院長對歸人這個AI產業園區你的想定是什麼另外呢NVIDIA已經宣布到高雄那台南有沒有機會爭取到比方說像AMD或者國內大廠的投資那是不是請這個院長再要回答一下"},{"start":2726.519,"end":2746.641,"text":"謝謝委員因為沙崙是一個非常我想現在硬體設備非常新穎而且這個充足的一個地方那未來他應該是向外界去招更多的國際廠商跟國內的廠商能夠進駐那AI當然是其中重要的一環因為AI兩個人蘇之鋒跟還原旭都問台南人阿你放台南是明智的啦"},{"start":2747.282,"end":2772.368,"text":"但是現在就是說到底有沒有具體的發展計畫這所謂的AI園區因為我們有硬體設備完成之後我們當然提供最好的條件那因為國科會跟這些國際的廠商這個關係也都很好我國科會的主委啊所以他們正在跟外界在把這個條件散發出去希望他們能夠但是我們也要有戰略的佈局需要多少的廠商進來所以因為時間的關係喔院長我希望具體而明確"},{"start":2773.989,"end":2787.304,"text":"國客會主委我們很尊敬他他是最強的投手所以他也是台南人但我覺得發展要明確那這明確的布局才讓業者說那不是公共的他才會進來那他一旦選擇沒有進來這裡選擇別的地方"},{"start":2789.326,"end":2789.566,"text":"下一位請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":2838.643,"end":2844.526,"text":"謝謝副院長、主席。麻煩有請行政院院長、左院長。請左院長備詢。總委好。總院長好。在開始今天交通署的總諮詢之前,有一件非常重要的事情,我想"},{"start":2862.677,"end":2889.287,"text":"必須要提醒您的注意這件事情是我們的海基會董事長鄭文燦在上個週末的時候500萬元被法院重保交保社壇從法院所發布的新聞稿非常清楚的呈現了他的確有收受500萬元不當的金流"},{"start":2890.728,"end":2915.149,"text":"但這件事情我之所以有必要提醒院長注意也要請教院長是這件事情我們接下來當然就進入司法機關偵辦我們都尊重這個沒有問題但問題是什麼問題是這一個土地開發弊案受賄的情節在2017年9月的時候就已經有監聽議文了"},{"start":2917.791,"end":2935.171,"text":"2017年9月的時候就找到金流了在那個時候就已經要偵辦了為什麼後來案子被壓下來被簽結這件事情很嚴重這個攸關了我國整個司法上的信譽"},{"start":2936.836,"end":2960.525,"text":"為什麼那個時候的案子竟然無疾而終,辦不下去,沒有辦法約談,沒有辦法搜索。院長這件事情你有沒有掌握?謝謝委員,委員心中的這個疑慮啊,我想社會上大家也難免有同樣的想法。那我也認為一個案件,"},{"start":2962.297,"end":2989.377,"text":"這個檢調單位當然有他辦案的速度、步驟、程序等等但是在適當的時間而且在案件沒有被...如果7年以後你認為是適當的時間嗎?我說如果在適當的時間他可以對外或者是進行這個受案的動作的話那對案件的釐清應該是更有幫助的。這個齁除了目前鄭文燦他個人所細數的案件的偵辦以外我今天之所以跟院長提這件事情"},{"start":2990.353,"end":3016.308,"text":"是牽涉到了我們的法務部在處理這個案子的時候第一個有沒有人押案第二個更嚴重的顯然是消息有洩漏所以不到大概過了一年的時間消息有洩漏監聽的內容有洩漏所以鄭文燦匆匆忙忙的把那五百萬還回去這還有洩密的問題啊院長你認為需不需要徹查"},{"start":3018.07,"end":3037.245,"text":"徹查法務部長不是,徹查當初為什麼這個案子被牽結為什麼沒有辦法動當初這個案子為什麼今天天津議員會流出去導致什麼鄭文燦收到風把匯款還回去這些事情不需要查嗎?"},{"start":3038.286,"end":3057.199,"text":"好,我剛剛說除了檢調單位的辦案的程序、步驟之外,民主的台灣應該不會有人要去押一個任何的案子。但是這件事情如果在現在法律的釐清之餘,對過去的處理程序、行政上有沒有必要做檢討,法務部我認為可以去了解。"},{"start":3057.998,"end":3071.845,"text":"法務部有必要去做調查嘛對不對可以去了解過去的這個行政上有沒有任何的我希望這件事情知識體大攸關全民對我國司法信譽跟人民對司法的信任"},{"start":3072.984,"end":3094.798,"text":"法務部有必要要徹查給全體國人一個交代當初這件事情到底是怎麼發生的這個是我今天一開始的時候因為事關重大我覺得有必要要當面跟院長提醒這件事情我們的法務部應該要給社會一個清楚的交代回到今天啊質詢的主題"},{"start":3097.588,"end":3122.982,"text":"我們在討論啊NCC被提名人的時候我們執政黨不斷地強調基於責任的議題基於責任的政治基於行政議題的概念NCC委員應該由行政院院長提名這個才是責任政治的展現嘛臺灣民眾黨黨團我們公開呼籲過好幾次就希望卓榮泰院長能夠跟社會大眾表示對這四位人選"},{"start":3124.079,"end":3148.961,"text":"您到底是知不知恥備不備輸因為這四個不是你提的大家都知道你一開始上任的時候你說你要一些時間去了解我們大家都願意給你時間那了解到今天我們現在的行政院您願不願意幫這四個NCCC被提名的人備輸因為這直接攸關了我們在討論行政議題在討論責任政治的時候我們到底要不要進行實質審查"},{"start":3150.642,"end":3179.566,"text":"這個是不是行政院願意背書的名單?好,兩個事情跟委員報告。第一個,世衛委員我們在最近期間以前有在一一的跟他們詢問,當初拜託他們提名他們的這個過程,現在我們如數的在向立法院來做一個確認,這個要再徵求他們意願,否則時間過這麼久。第二個,我記得應該是6月25號吧,大院的程序委員會誠心就這個提名案,這個同意權,再做一次,不以"},{"start":3180.999,"end":3196.433,"text":"的一個決定,否則在6月底跟7月初的這個院會就能處理。所以這個事情在大院裡面也一直在進行當中。所以他去問了你的立場。你四位談完了以後,現在這四位你是不是都背書?因為這牽涉到"},{"start":3197.634,"end":3226.713,"text":"接下來的審查程序啊,如果這四個被提名人有不適格的狀況的話,到底是誰要負這個行政責任嗎?我相信我這個問題非常公平。現在我的態度是既然6月25號程序委員會,大院的程序委員會曾經就討論過,那就讓這個會議繼續的進行下去。所以你願意幫這四個被提名人背書嗎?基於我們剛剛所講的行政議題責任政治,這是你願意背書的對象嗎?目前我傾向就照原案來做進行。所以這四位你都願意背書嗎?"},{"start":3227.716,"end":3227.938,"text":"提名"},{"start":3229.725,"end":3257.392,"text":"行政院提名是行政院長要負責嘛我們就是不希望把前面行政院長的鍋甩到你身上所以給你善意的給你再一次的機會考慮你願意幫這四位背書我今天在這邊負責任的跟院長報告臺灣民眾黨黨團你只要願意背書我們就支持實質審查你如果覺得你有其他的考慮要重新提名我們也願意支持你的決定現在就看院長你的決定是什麼"},{"start":3258.291,"end":3281.797,"text":"第二因為我說大院還在進行相關的程序而且四位被提名人的意願我們現在為止沒有明確的跟過去大大的不同所以我們就按照原來的四位再請大院來進行相關程序這個問題喔我想來來回回詢大家了這麼多次我應該可以認為說你願意幫這四位背書沒有問題吧就繼續下去是嗎好"},{"start":3283.393,"end":3297.042,"text":"接下來黨戰軍退出媒體還是不是民進黨的價值當然是當然是嘛好但問題是在具體的實踐上有沒有做到我相信社會都有一把尺啦"},{"start":3298.064,"end":3317.287,"text":"現在到底是黨政軍退出媒體還是黨政軍就是媒體這件事情每一個公民心裡都有一把尺但我不喜歡談抽象的事情我喜歡談具體的事情我去年回到立法院之前我就直接公開質疑過這件事情我們"},{"start":3319.215,"end":3334.036,"text":"有我們的電視新聞台竟然可以去入主可以去入主這麼大的中加有線電視系統跨越了反媒體壟斷的紅線我當初提出所有的證據"},{"start":3335.185,"end":3352.325,"text":"指正立例那個時候也有不同黨派的立法委員在立法院關心這件事情我們的NCC經過調查確認當初檢舉的內容是真實無誤的是真實無誤的但我們大家就在懷疑一件事情"},{"start":3353.166,"end":3370.66,"text":"今天一個跨越反媒體壟斷紅線做了不應該做的事情的三立集團為什麼這件事情NCC已經徹查認為確有其事但是三立卻沒有受到任何的處罰院長你覺得這樣對嗎"},{"start":3372.176,"end":3392.857,"text":"是不是請NCC說明?好,跟委員說明一下齁,這個案子來講是3億的股東的投資,所以這個案子我們查,就程度剛才委員所講的,他目前這個投資的股東...不是3億的股東啦,就是他們的董事長張榮華嘛,就講白話文就好了嘛。所以就是股東嘛,所以我們現在已經命期把這個相關的股份處分掉嘛。"},{"start":3393.257,"end":3407.356,"text":"處分掉了嗎?我先給你釐清一個概念做出違法行為的人是三立或者是你要講張榮華也可以但為什麼他沒有得到任何處罰?"},{"start":3408.537,"end":3409.839,"text":"這是社會大眾的疑慮嗎?你認為這種行為應不應該處罰?"},{"start":3426.596,"end":3452.812,"text":"明明就知道紅線在那裡明明就知道NCC的付款不允許做這件事還執意去做還欺騙NCC被抓到了以後沒有任何處罰這樣對嗎問題是說在法律授權上我們現在沒有辦法現在我問你的是你認為這個行為該不該處罰該處罰但是要有法律依據好這件事情你講過了所以我今天特別請教你你說"},{"start":3454.212,"end":3473.432,"text":"要修衛廣法我等了好幾個月草案在哪裡草案還在我們會裡面什麼時候可以申得出來委員我們現在基本上來講是換屆當中啦所以說你說所以這個是下一屆NCC委員的鍋就對了不是鍋的問題而是這個本來是個延續的這個事情拖得越久"},{"start":3474.417,"end":3488.213,"text":"就不就讓這些媒體大亨可以逍遙越久沒有要拖的問題而是說什麼時候可以提出來下一屆NCC委員才知道來請教院長院長您認為這麼重要的法案什麼時候應該提出來"},{"start":3490.077,"end":3505.152,"text":"我會先了解現在通常會進行的草案內容那交下一屆的新政經濟委員的時候我們會把這個列為優先請他優先法案嘛我希望下個會期優先法案因為我們也有提出衛廣法的修法"},{"start":3506.035,"end":3527.396,"text":"我們除了要去制裁這種明知道紅線在哪裡,跨越紅線,對他卻毫無處罰這種惡質的媒體之外,我們還希望股權要透明,補助要透明,財務要透明,要接受社會公眾的監督,這三個原則院長是不是支持?"},{"start":3529.472,"end":3556.661,"text":"這個大的原則當然是往這個方向那再收集更多更各方的意見我們把它弄為一個比較完善的修法沒有關係啊院長承諾這是優先法案我們下個會期啊拭目以待賴慶德總統說啊打仗、掃黑、樹灘是政府的重要任務院長同不同意當然是我們在事安會報的時候就提出這樣的一個決心好但大家現在覺得很困惑的是什麼被查獲的"},{"start":3558.356,"end":3583.3,"text":"害人無數不法詐欺吸金所的20幾億的王牌交易所就竟然跟我們的三立集團在洗錢的網絡當中有一個遺傳公司不僅是設立在三立的大樓裡面甚至什麼這家公司也不只是跟三立合資他的監察人還是三立派的"},{"start":3584.892,"end":3607.326,"text":"我們過去在討論打詐的時候是說網路上有很多不實的資訊大家不要相信那不實的資訊要求網路平台業者要去除不實的資訊結果現在什麼在幫詐欺集團散播假新聞讓無辜的社會大眾去買那些垃圾的虛擬貨幣"},{"start":3609.076,"end":3611.177,"text":"這不是媒體揭露啦 這個是我檢舉的啦"},{"start":3631.493,"end":3654.872,"text":"那謝謝委員的辛苦那我們會依照法律來處理這件事情那也請依照我們的打詐依照什麼法律怎麼處理講清楚不要講空話依照法律處理我當然贊成嘛但人民要看到的是什麼人民要看到政府不是打詐不是口號是行動你要依據什麼法律怎麼處理請教委員長"},{"start":3656.338,"end":3682.476,"text":"現在當然法務部也好內政部也好他們都有相關的來處理這些事情那整個過程當中現在在進行當中我也不宜多講阿我現在跟院長報告一件事啦不是叫進行當中這叫已經進行結束了檢察官已經起訴了偵查終結了在起訴的犯罪事實裡提到了這個一賺公司在這個詐欺洗錢的網絡當中"},{"start":3684.141,"end":3711.441,"text":"但是提到了這個公司在這個詐欺洗錢的網絡當中然後呢?然後就沒有然後這是為什麼?這是為什麼我要沒有起訴怎麼會有法院的程序?院長你也幫幫忙檢察官要起訴法院才能審判檢察官沒有處理法院要判什麼啊?我希望喔法務部這要追查下去但我為什麼在交通組處理這件事情這個是有線電視新聞台"},{"start":3713.229,"end":3735.702,"text":"這是拿到國家特許的欸!NCC要怎麼處理?跟委員說明,我們現在在處理當中的,在行政調查這個有沒有,剛剛委員所講的,在個案裡面來講的話有沒有事實查證,或是這個沒變成有所謂詐欺的這個手段,這個,三立政論節目跟詐團的假新聞平台,強強聯手!"},{"start":3737.683,"end":3755.668,"text":"這個Potato Media是詐欺集團裡面網絡的一份子,這不是我說的。這個是檢察官說的。這是內容農場。這是整個詐騙集團他們成立的公司。詐騙集團成立的內容農場跟三立合作,這件事情NCC要查多久?還需要多久?"},{"start":3763.277,"end":3763.297,"text":"謝謝黃委員"},{"start":3791.556,"end":3814.752,"text":"下一位請羅明才委員質詢。主席江峰院長、行政院卓院長及各部會首長。麻煩主席請卓院長。請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":3823.581,"end":3852.079,"text":"各位好。台湾啊,現在大家覺得大概有三多啊。第一個,詐騙多。第二個,到南部啊,常常感覺治安不好,開槍多。第三個,就是台灣的媒體啊,壟斷得非常的厲害,很多偏頗的情況。"},{"start":3853.271,"end":3863.288,"text":"面對這三多啊,不曉得卓院長,你要如何大刀闊斧的改善?謝謝委員,我們都發現同樣的問題,所以我們的"},{"start":3867.271,"end":3884.44,"text":"午打期間裡面這個都大概包含在內前面兩個部分一個就是打詐還有就是黑金槍的問題黑金槍賭詐都包括在裡面了那打詐的部分我們已經希望說一方面希望通過打詐事法第二邊我們打詐中心我們請數位數發部"},{"start":3887.222,"end":3908.203,"text":"請法務部請內政部全面在進行打詐目前對於名人利用名人來打詐的事情來詐騙的事情有了初步的一個發展但是不夠徹底再來就是希望數法數位部能夠提供一個大家可以上去一個平台讓大家去詢問這個事件這個訊息是真是假"},{"start":3908.743,"end":3924.458,"text":"那這個也一定會在這幾個月當中來上路那另外就是打詐的中心我們希望他能夠更精進現在的作為能夠把案件能夠一一的誠實的落實出來讓相關的這個單位來做更多的這個追"},{"start":3925.299,"end":3954.862,"text":"追索這個部分同時銀行也要對金融的體系跟手續來做完整這是打仗那槍的部分我們在今天開始就會執行全國同步的掃黑跟貪賭的這個行動專案那希望能夠持續進行下去接續從6月25號開始的綠能掃黑專案貪賭專案一樣能夠一直進行下去希望我們用展現最大的決心同時早上我們邀請各部會的首長我希望能夠做一個更整體的概念"},{"start":3955.422,"end":3982.695,"text":"向人民宣示現在政府兩大主軸一個是經濟發展一個是維持治安兩處同時來進行希望這三多可以完全降低消滅掉我們全力的努力台灣人民好生活昨天我們看到臺南漁會的林理事長居然在家裡的門口被槍擊"},{"start":3984.397,"end":3984.657,"text":"當然知道 知道"},{"start":3993.581,"end":4017.514,"text":"那什麼原因啊?現在看起來這是一個有計劃性的,比如說清晨就在家門口堵人,而且車輛經過這樣轉轉之後,車輛還把它燒掉,而且用不同的交通工具等等,這是一個有計劃的、縝密性的工作。也因為如此,現在我們的整個專案小組是全面在展開宿醉當中。怎麼這幾年啊,這些槍擊事件都發生在台南,究竟台南發生了什麼事情?"},{"start":4023.935,"end":4023.955,"text":"院長"},{"start":4040.114,"end":4066.272,"text":"現在我們是不排除任何可能也不假設任何狀況到底是什麼因素什麼原因發生的現在是全面在搜查當中包括所有的關係人等等已經全面展開這跟那個太陽光電有沒有關係啊就是我不排除任何可能但是也不設定任何特定的一個事件這樣我們查的範圍檢調單位查的範圍才會周延廣泛那具體能夠迅速來找到這個行為人"},{"start":4067.967,"end":4093.351,"text":"我想這是冰山一角啦因為冰凍三尺非一日之寒我發現這個問題錯綜複雜可是院長如果你遇到有夠力的人士不管在媒體方面或是政治勢力方面你敢不敢查"},{"start":4095.305,"end":4124.643,"text":"只要是我職責在內,而且對人民有利的,我想委員可以信得過我。好,那希望你第一個就是勿往勿重。第二個,你的肩膀要夠硬。希望不要有其他的因素來影響你該做正式的這個機會。另外剛剛講的,就是台灣的媒體啊,院長有沒有覺得現在的媒體是"},{"start":4125.953,"end":4153.118,"text":"有被壟斷的情況我覺得媒體應該忠實的報導事實的真相自己的立場你可以用分析的方式但是不代表新聞就新聞的處理應該讓人民知道事實的真相的權利這個應該權利的維護那經過這麼多年台灣民主的發展我們對媒體已經有相當嚴格的要求但是我希望媒體能夠把自己的立場放在"},{"start":4154.475,"end":4182.787,"text":"後面把事實真相呈現出來媒體應該是非常重要的公器那應該心裡都有一把尺可是現在的台灣的情況變得很糟糕藍的就看藍的頻道綠的就喜歡看綠的頻道這樣不好啊這樣很不好吧對不對實在在變我們希望媒體他有他的公權力他可以教化人心嘛"},{"start":4183.737,"end":4209.85,"text":"而不是現在的這個頻道一打開來喔院長不曉得你有沒有在看電視的習慣我看到現在我都不看了因為不是狗咬人啊就是狗咬狗啊不然就是交通事故每天報的報這個這什麼新聞啊能不能拜託院長啊新聞的素質可不可以提升一點啊你像日本像歐美國家"},{"start":4211.735,"end":4239.639,"text":"他們的一些內容啊有國際觀可是現在的媒體啊有的為了要省錢啊他就隨便亂七八糟在報講難聽點有的東西就好像台灣的八點檔一樣那個老人家或者家庭婦女啊每天看每天看我偶爾我也看啊陪我媽媽看可是看了半天啊"},{"start":4240.826,"end":4267.59,"text":"啊這個劇情演了10年20年還是一樣就是婆媳吵架啊不然就是什麼車子被撞什麼醫院的問題在演都是演這個這些東西啊低價的廉價的這個成本這樣子好嗎是不是政府啊應該給予一些獎勵讓他們做一些好的片子嘛比如說像以前的"},{"start":4268.732,"end":4269.653,"text":"政府用力來支持韓國的影音。"},{"start":4295.643,"end":4300.363,"text":"到處的韓團啊還有很多的影片啊都賣到全世界"},{"start":4301.56,"end":4329.19,"text":"這方面是不是行政院有什麼想法可以改變?其實最近很多的台劇也引起一份的台流啦。他跟這個大的平台合作也製造出不少相當多的快智人口的影片出來也大家都非常的喜歡。那現在希望說這樣的一個風氣這個製作的水準內容能夠引到我們國內的電視台來從內置的節目上大家來做精進再做一份的進步。"},{"start":4329.98,"end":4344.825,"text":"因為文化到底是國家的軟實力我們看到韓流看到這個能夠大舉的向全世界去發展那台灣應該也有這個實力我想二三十年前台灣的歌曲音樂在亞洲地區都是"},{"start":4346.306,"end":4348.208,"text":"謝謝院長可以關心這一塊與其八千八百億亂亂花"},{"start":4372.81,"end":4399.904,"text":"倒不如把一些錢、資金、資源公正地用來推廣所謂的影音還有一些媒體的這個自律希望院長可以找到一個好的方式讓臺灣這個環境大家住得安心看所有的影片或者是看新聞的時候看得不要觸目驚心好不好好的謝謝那因為這交通質詢"},{"start":4401.298,"end":4423.193,"text":"對於現在AI的發展我們現在拭目以待台灣未來的自駕車或是無人駕駛這一塊不曉得已經做好準備沒我們什麼時候會在台北市可以看到無人駕駛的這個汽車讓人民可以很方便的來使用大概什麼時候可以上路"},{"start":4424.056,"end":4441.7,"text":"我們從傳統的燃油車現在進行進步到這個電動車電動車裡面就有分好幾個不同level的一個自駕的一個程序那台這個應該我們全國各地還有一些試驗場大概什麼時候會很普遍的在台北市的"},{"start":4442.185,"end":4443.106,"text":"五年還看不到?"},{"start":4467.349,"end":4495.428,"text":"目前我覺得可能還要先從比較保守或是說比較封閉型的場域看起來沒有那麼快啦所以在捷運的推動方面我想應該要加快速度比如說本席最關心的捷運延伸至深坑未來接到實定這個喊了快12年了到現在"},{"start":4497.361,"end":4521.654,"text":"還沒開始動工,院長可不可以關心一下,因為不論立任的縣長、市長大家都支持,包括蘇貞昌以前蘇縣長,包括侯友宜侯市長,沒有人反對,大家都激起在推動,所以這個部分是不是可以加快腳步?"},{"start":4522.672,"end":4549.881,"text":"這應該是現在可行性的研究新北市政府在提出當中那所以說預留後面那一段到時定的這個過程應該這個內容還要做相當的修正那請交通部來詳細說我補充一下其實就是在時定交流道那邊做一個轉運中心所以我們發現現在去這個國五到宜蘭堵車都堵得很厲害那同萬節等等都堵得很厲害每個禮拜六禮拜天"},{"start":4550.899,"end":4571.828,"text":"所以我們鼓勵大家多多來搭乘大眾捷運進來臺北城市的時候就是在時定的交流道那邊就當一個轉運站車輛不要再進到臺北市了所以本席一直提出了這個構想也希望院長部長可以支持"},{"start":4572.492,"end":4599.972,"text":"目前深坑輕軌正在可行性的評估那今年有先有一些審查意見給新北市新北市還在修正那如果送上來我們就會依程序來協助他們市長123456789我們地方還要等多久你可能要去催新北市他還沒生出來那是不是改天我約一下新北市侯市長跟你一起見個面"},{"start":4601.704,"end":4627.304,"text":"把事情講完再下班。一次就解決啦。這樣不是更快嗎?你覺得只要地方政府規劃送上來,我們就會全力來協助?因為深坑啊,這個地方很漂亮。它也是整個大台北都會區的後花園。其實,就長遠來看,早做完做不如早點做,也比較省錢啊。比如說你看看,我們的捷運環狀線,南段,到現在,"},{"start":4631.161,"end":4658.866,"text":"做的這個進度怎麼樣?聽說又延宕了現在南北環都在施工的階段目前都已經發包施工南環因為是經過我的選區新店、政大這個地方那現在有沒有遇到什麼困難目前了解是有順利發包那也在積極的這個在施工如果10年前做就比較省一點現在物價飆漲很可惜"},{"start":4659.693,"end":4684.766,"text":"另外一個基隆捷運還有捷運汐止名聲線的問題同樣是捷運我在新店那個地方安坑清軌都已經完工開始通車了也非常感謝我們交通部還有所有相關人員做得很好你看過20年過了汐止還在那邊空喊說這個汐止名聲線"},{"start":4686.309,"end":4711.328,"text":"也跟委員報告矽東縣主要是當時它是跟矽紫民生縣掛在一起但是臺北市當時它對矽紫民生縣有一些疑慮因為都有一些問題所以後來大家有達成交通部跟我們新北市政府大家達成共識有問題就是要寫條克服那因為本席來自地方也拜託院長關心一下安城快速道路的這個興建"},{"start":4712.247,"end":4712.367,"text":"謝謝董委員"},{"start":4738.685,"end":4740.534,"text":"謝謝院長。下一位請吳啟明委員質詢。"},{"start":4773.178,"end":4782.06,"text":"主席一位媒體我們請行政院長與交通部長請行政院長交通部長備詢吳委員好 委員長好 部長好辛苦了我們新的執政團隊新氣象在各項的經濟指標都有突出的表現"},{"start":4803.928,"end":4832.02,"text":"在這近半年臺股的指示現在我早上看已經將近兩萬四千點了這時候臺灣的股市是52年來最新高臺灣的股票市值已經在全球排名已經第15了那靜電視民調顯示我們卓院長的滿意度也將近五成了恭喜卓院長尤其我們富國神山臺積電"},{"start":4833.345,"end":4848.481,"text":"的半導體的技術領先全球,會替臺灣帶來可觀的稅收。各項的福國利民政策會讓民眾的生活更加的有感,讓執政黨的滿意度會穩定的領先。對此國家應該好好"},{"start":4851.744,"end":4869.928,"text":"更好的條件來做復古立民做出更多的努力。本席這邊跟院長提出的討論首先我們國人的驕傲黃仁軒在6月來台也掀起了AI的先鋒並且有意在台灣繼續設立研發中心"},{"start":4872.589,"end":4896.552,"text":"過去選舉期間我也提出了土城三峽AI的科技廊道在政見裡掛出許多的看板地方的民眾對這項的政策也相當的期待我身為土城三峽民意代表選出來也向院長推薦土城有工業區的基礎加上許多科技的廠商也都在土城"},{"start":4897.182,"end":4925.415,"text":"然後土城三峽許多的國有地可以來提供這8年來的努力在土城三峽的交通基礎建設可以說發展的快速。未來我們的捷運、山陰縣、阪南縣、萬大縣的共構還有土城的交流道、京城的交流道已經開始動工。未來六、五的延伸快速道路要成為北部的科技園區"},{"start":4926.462,"end":4928.763,"text":"﹚三、7月5日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。﹚完整會議"},{"start":4952.728,"end":4979.942,"text":"就是我們的北側以及南側那北側呢那現在我們的司法園區有84公頃那我們這個南側這一邊有將近100公頃就是以前土城的彈藥庫土城這個地方的彈藥庫那未來呢因為我們要推動我們的AI科技產業那一定要找我們國家的土地"},{"start":4980.162,"end":5005.674,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":5006.406,"end":5007.007,"text":"委員一開始講關於臺灣的經濟的發展"},{"start":5023.7,"end":5046.869,"text":"我們都知道這是全國人民共同的努力政府該做的就是維護國家的安全讓成熟的民主政治更往健全的方向去發展另外兩件很重要的是我們要接得住世界的潮流也要穩定的對我們的基礎建設做全面的開發如果做到這點那全國人民努力之下就會得到更好的成果那至於說"},{"start":5048.25,"end":5072.077,"text":"國際的大廠要到台灣到哪裡設置任何的一個大型的開發我們都非常的歡迎但是也要符合我們的整個戰略的佈局跟我們的整體發展的目標那現在委員所提出的這個AI的旋風當然是很少全台灣我想各地包括每位委員在這裡都會為自己的選區自己的所在地提出很多的希望跟期待"},{"start":5072.757,"end":5097.373,"text":"那至於剛剛委員所提到的這個司法園區的部分目前我所知道已經開始在辦理這個區段徵收工程的作業當中那是不是它未來有進一步的發展的這個可能性我想這個地方的整個包括中央地方的合作努力應該要再做進一步那用這個來吸引更多的這個國際大廠來投資對地方絕對就是一個好的發展"},{"start":5098.322,"end":5117.187,"text":"好的跟院長報告還有部長因為土城這個地方早期我們土城工業區包括鴻海一些科技大廠都在土城那現在土城的房價大家都知道已經都上漲尤其廠商他們要取得土地都不容易"},{"start":5118.257,"end":5118.277,"text":"委員長"},{"start":5134.147,"end":5134.307,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":5157.854,"end":5182.89,"text":"南側這一邊有將近100公頃那100公頃我們未來可以好好的去規劃因為那都是我們國有地占的比例最高那我們這來推動的話我相信包含他們AI的研發中心也可以來進駐在新北的土城山峽這個地方所以這一點我也拜託院長是不是找我們相關單位來做研議"},{"start":5184.493,"end":5209.614,"text":"這個會再跟經濟部請他們來做研議因為南側的土地目前還是屬於非都市計畫土地所以他還要再經過都市計畫的這個檢討跟變更所以程序上還要再進行那如果說地方有需要產業有需要說目的是事業主管機關認為這個應該朝向更有利土地發展的利用發展的這個方向去那我們會請經濟部再跟地方再跟委員來做一些"},{"start":5210.51,"end":5227.404,"text":"了解那進行以後但怎麼進行那希望我們中央跟新北市大家來合作來推動好謝謝那再來剛才我所講到的就是因為我們地方要推動整個一個產業產業鏈的聯結合那我"},{"start":5231.28,"end":5258.39,"text":"首先我們那個交通的問題我們還是要解決因為土城跟三峽這邊的人口密集度現在成長速度非常快那成長速度非常快尤其在六五的延伸在六五的延伸不管是三峽這邊已經列入我們的優先路段尤其我跟院長跟部長報告"},{"start":5260.026,"end":5285.434,"text":"因為三峽尤其是在北大北大在兩年前兩年前4萬7千多人那目前短短兩年的時間又暴增了到6萬多人那目前新北市又規劃了麥子岩這個地段又要做重劃還有士林跟大甘園地區這邊也要推動重劃區"},{"start":5287.395,"end":5301.892,"text":"那只有靠國道3號那國道3號就造成整個車流量都非常擁擠那所以我說六五的延伸我早期還跟公共工程會我們的吳主委"},{"start":5302.672,"end":5331.705,"text":"要求相關單位來做研議早期那時候得到我們公路總局的席可在111年1月30號上網招標可行性評估作業在4月30號結標6月27號召開會議辦理可行性初期報告審查作業所以這是我們交通部依據在明年114年3月提出其中"},{"start":5332.506,"end":5343.54,"text":"報告請我要拜託部長是不是65這一條沿線能夠抓住一定要順利的推動好不好請部長你來說明"},{"start":5344.551,"end":5365.992,"text":"我想這個是非常重要的一條快速道路因為現在從龍潭一直到土城甚至到中和的北二高都非常容易塞車那在上下班的時候是塞車的狀況很嚴重所以如果能夠平行這個北二高來興建一條這個板龍快速道路我覺得對整個交通疏解很有幫助"},{"start":5366.452,"end":5377.461,"text":"那現在當然還有一些技術上要去克服我想我們這個可行性評估會盡快來辦理而且這條快速道路也列為桃竹廟大細股一個重要的交通建設的一環"},{"start":5379.041,"end":5407.019,"text":"謝謝部長,那部長你就很清楚吧因為我們這都是短程那短程他們對外的交通就要靠國道3號那國道3號你常常國道3號你再要怎樣拖關還是不過用那唯一的辦法就是推動這6565的快速道路那你短程你就把土城三峽列為優先路段這樣你就可以解決很多車流量的擁塞的問題"},{"start":5408.612,"end":5422.798,"text":"那他現在可能需要去處理的就是要跟很多的提防怎麼樣共構那跟水利單位的一個協調那這個部分需要一些時間來趕快把它付出那我也跟部長提醒尤其在我們土城工業區還有這一條甘寧橋過來"},{"start":5429.008,"end":5430.228,"text":"那再來就是我再請部長"},{"start":5452.045,"end":5465.627,"text":"因為我在上個會期在我們王國才部長我也要求過就在三峽在我們三峽在2020年也獲得我們交通部列為經典的小鎮"},{"start":5467.301,"end":5486.801,"text":"那我們三峽的商圈我們現在在推動這個長湖橋長湖橋就是當初我跟水利署要求經位然後我們的三峽河的整治然後再三峽再過去就是三峽老街還有祖師廟那邊的觀光人潮我們列為經典小鎮"},{"start":5487.261,"end":5504.514,"text":"﹚"},{"start":5504.654,"end":5521.581,"text":"正餘款我們當初編了260億我們還現在還有剩餘款要是我們新北市同意列為排序在前面我們交通部這邊原則上他是支持的那現在部長又換了我們部長現在你對這個案子會不會繼續來推動來支持"},{"start":5528.372,"end":5556.069,"text":"目前我們的了解這個交通部已經完成這個初審那麼而且在新北市也是排第一那審查完以後這個案子也是在整個新北排序是最優先所以目前最近他會運用結議款會來提報那什麼時候?重點應該是今年的這一兩個月就會來做進步那現在7月了那下個月可不可以"},{"start":5557.339,"end":5577.23,"text":"可不可以核定我這個時間是我會後再跟您報告比較明確的時間因為真的不要跳票因為怎樣關係到整個三峽三峽的觀光產業三峽現在是最主要是靠的觀光觀光的產業你來到三峽你一定要有具備的停車場不然你三峽在那邊整個交通都癱瘓"},{"start":5578.531,"end":5605.243,"text":"所以這個停車場是一個重中之重這我們政府一定要重視那因為新北市也是非常的重視這個停車場所以這也要拜託部長引落我們將這個經費趕快來做核定因為我也知道這個經費很多5.78億那我們中央補助的是2.7億那這一點我就要拜託部長了"},{"start":5606.956,"end":5632.992,"text":"這隊不要跳票好不好可以吧是我們會全力來支持好謝謝謝謝謝謝部長好那部長還有一點就是我們針對我們的山陵縣明年就要通車了嘛那山陵縣在還有就是我們的萬大縣萬大縣在107年我跟吳秉慧、蘇巧慧我們三位委員共同的爭取在555億的前瞻經費"},{"start":5636.641,"end":5664.527,"text":"那現在555億,現在你知道疫情過後,原物料缺乏,工資會漲,所以我們所編的預算也不夠,那現在的缺口又少了220億,現在總共來到770億,那本時想拜託我們交通部這邊,是不是趕快來審議,讓我們這個捷運萬大線,能早日通車,是不是這個部分請部長來做說明好不好?"},{"start":5666.772,"end":5683.554,"text":"是,我想因為現在確實是有原物料上漲像過去我們在編這個建築工程以前都是一坪編大概10萬塊現在實際上的建築成本大概一坪要22萬以上所以確實是有倍增的一個狀況"},{"start":5684.475,"end":5696.643,"text":"那也因此很多原來之前編的計畫現在在執行發包以後或是在實際執行上配合這個物條可能都需要調整經費那我們只要會好謝謝,謝謝部長那議長還有時間的關係社會事務部長"},{"start":5711.097,"end":5714.899,"text":"好,謝謝吳委員。下一位請葉元之委員質詢。院長,麻煩請卓院長,謝謝。"},{"start":5741.194,"end":5762.949,"text":"委員長請教一下今天大家國人非常關心昨天在台南發生那個零四節槍擊案我想問一下目前來講行政院有沒有請警政署一定要召開專案會議然後要趕快破案有沒有"},{"start":5764.485,"end":5765.606,"text":"現在大概掌握的是什麼方向?是配套的關係還是利益還是什麼關係?"},{"start":5788.983,"end":5804.882,"text":"對任何的可能性我們都不排除,但是我們也不去假設特別的狀況,這樣這個面才會出來。還不曉得就對了,還在追查中。我只能這樣回答,任何的可能性都不排除。大概有沒有下達一個什麼,多久要破案,就是讓國人有點信心。"},{"start":5805.72,"end":5805.94,"text":"好,謝謝院長"},{"start":5823.554,"end":5851.478,"text":"上禮拜二剛好我在教育質詢的時候那時候你有承諾我嘛有關於中共介入政論節目這個議題你說如果案情沒有太複雜的話一個禮拜要給國人交代啦那因為今天剛好一個禮拜上禮拜二到這禮拜二不知道這個事情目前查得怎麼樣上禮拜已經正式說這個調查局在立案調查當中對那時候是說要破案啦就是要跟大家講說到底有沒有這件事因為大家現在看政論節目很緊張嘛都不知道是不是被滲透啊"},{"start":5853.56,"end":5877.79,"text":"雖然在調查當中,我只能就程序上在調查,我沒有去了解他調查的內容﹖所以沒有辦法在一個禮拜之內告訴大家﹖那可見案情不是那麼﹖因為你上禮拜二跟我講的﹖案情沒有那麼不單純﹖所以案情很複雜的﹖我認為他們所以還在調查當中﹖案情非常複雜,但是院長雖然你說案情很複雜,但NCC好像沒有做什麼事,我想問一下NCC對於這個案件有做什麼嗎?"},{"start":5878.65,"end":5901.569,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個時間第一時間發生的時候來講因為當相關的媒體並沒有指明是哪一個特定的節目所以我們第一個先那你有去問相關媒體嗎沒有我們通案式的處理你連問都沒有問沒有沒有我們通案式的處理請這個媒體的相關公學會寫什麼叫通案式處理就是說我們會我們發函給公學會去讓公學會了解說這個是相關的法尊的問題對好"},{"start":5903.21,"end":5931.273,"text":"昨天你們也有來立法院委員會我看你們報告院長問一下NCC這樣的態度你能不能接受他說他們就發函給工協會比如說中華民國廣電工會學會等等學會表示對於會員所作所為不瞭解NCC結案院長你可以接受NCC這樣的態度嗎NCC你知道現在被指涉的電視台是哪一家你知道嗎"},{"start":5932.485,"end":5959.78,"text":"你知道嗎?根據昨天的媒體的報導來講的話是陸委會講的根據哪一間你不用講哪一間是東森新聞東森你昨天才知道我不是NCC我不是NCC喔我在這個媒體報導的當天我就知道了為什麼因為我沒有去打聽嘛有多少證據講多少話不好意思主委我沒有跟你講話我跟院長講話你是院長嗎我跟院長講話"},{"start":5960.72,"end":5981.905,"text":"我在當天我們就問了就說到底是哪一家人家說東森為什麼人家知道東森因為東森都有出具自由時報跟他們去求證的簡訊所以大家都知道東森結果我不是NCC我不是媒體主管機關我都知道結果媒體主管機關NCC昨天聽陸委會講才知道"},{"start":5982.805,"end":6010.604,"text":"院長,這種NCC你可以接受嗎?他是媒體的主管機關喔!而且當時大家把這個事情講得很嚴重喔!結果NCC昨天聽陸委會長才知道!院長你可以接受這麼蠻攤的NCC嗎?主委不是這個意思,請容許喔!是不是那個意思無所謂,我現在是說他昨天才知道那家電視台是哪一家,你可以接受嗎?我們還是以有公平的機關為主。我問院長啊!我問院長!"},{"start":6013.667,"end":6028.981,"text":"我相信主委不是這個意思但是也請容許我們的部委首長對任何的事件發生過程當中採取比較謹慎的方式來發言剛剛主委的意思我都聽得非常清楚他昨天聽陸委會長才知道我覺得非常滿憨因為當時跟院長報告"},{"start":6032.705,"end":6047.127,"text":"在自由時報報導這個新聞的當天民進黨黨團就開記者會你知道他的記者會的主題是什麼嗎你知道嗎你不知道我講給你聽他說中共黑手介入台灣媒體下一句叫做"},{"start":6048.669,"end":6072.81,"text":"藍白立法架空NCC什麼意思呢就是這個事情這麼嚴重嚴重到說NCC一定要來處理而藍白很可惡居然在卡NCC讓NCC不能來處理這個是民進黨黨團當天媒體報導的態度所以民進黨黨團對於NCC寄予厚望認為NCC就是要處理這件案子最重要的機關結果今天這個事情發生這麼久以後"},{"start":6074.315,"end":6100.589,"text":"主委昨天才知道是東森電視台代表什麼?代表他連查都沒有查嘛就是聊貝伊格嘛官樣文章嘛發個文問相關工協會叫相關工協會去問一下你們的會員請你普發給所有會員看看有沒有會員自己承認他們有幹這個事情如果沒有我就可以交差啦我就可以沒事了然後最後推給減掉就沒有NCC的事情了"},{"start":6101.429,"end":6127.281,"text":"院長這是你的NCC主委的態度欸我覺得他不是這個樣子我們第一時間就有看相關包括東森自己在這個關鍵時刻的節目都有提到這個問題那你剛剛講說你昨天聽我會講的陸委會是公權力機關我們做行政調查上次以公權力機關的說法為主對啦那你沒有調查的嘛重點是說你也沒有調查嗎你不要插話好不好我沒有插話每一次來我這邊總之君我找院長"},{"start":6128.321,"end":6151.568,"text":"質詢你就要一直插話那等你當院長的時候我來質詢你嘛你又不是院長我有請主委回答院長那也是要我要請因為我現在在跟你對話阿如果總質詢你都一直找他那你就總機阿對不對我就找你因為我尊重你阿我覺得你會處理事情跟NCC主委不一樣阿所以我們才跟你對話不然跟他對話他都一直插話講些言不及義的浪費我的時間我才15分鐘了"},{"start":6152.894,"end":6174.962,"text":"所以NCC主委這種蠻憨態度所以證明一件事情民進黨當時記者會把NCC過獄了啦把NCC講得過於重要好不好NCC根本沒在幹嘛那接下來院長我就要來問你NCC的事情那這件事情跟主委無關可不可以請主委先行休息好謝謝"},{"start":6176.052,"end":6202.043,"text":"因為NCC有四個委員在7月31號就要卸任了嘛對不對按照NCC組織法的規定如果這四位委員新的委員到時候沒有經過立法院通過原來四個委員可以延任嘛對吧院長規定是這樣對不對是好那現在因為行政院送來的四個新的委員立法院一直沒有排審嘛是那院長你知道原因是什麼嗎"},{"start":6208.141,"end":6231.894,"text":"我跟院長講一下好不好因為你要按照規定送來立法院立法院要審嘛對不對總是想要知道一下卓榮泰院長你對這四個委員的態度是什麼嗎那現在卡到兩件事第一件事是這四個委員是您前任的行政院長提過來的我們並不知道說您對這四個委員的態度如何嘛對不對如果審對您也不尊重因為未來這"},{"start":6232.83,"end":6234.072,"text":"所以當然也不知道說該排好呢還是不排好"},{"start":6251.051,"end":6270.029,"text":"排了萬一對卓榮泰院長不尊重那怎麼辦呢?因為我相信大家對卓榮泰院長還是有一定的尊重啦因為你的備份還有你的協調你帶人簽核大家對你還是有一定的尊重所以會希望說你對這個事情表態要明確一點那不知道說你對這四個委員你是支持的嗎?"},{"start":6270.489,"end":6281.481,"text":"好,謝謝委員的好意。第一個,6月25日的程序委員會,大院裡面的程序委員會曾經又一次把它不列案。所以我的覺得是這案一直在"},{"start":6282.844,"end":6284.764,"text":"您有沒有考慮新提四個人選?"},{"start":6313.205,"end":6337.307,"text":"你目前來說有沒有卡住?因為你也沒有來溝通嘛。今天要不是我問你的話,我根本不知道你態度是什麼。那您要跟立法院講一下嘛。感覺好像今天變我做球給你了,讓你來講。理論上院長應該主動,這四個人我們很希望立法院通過,你主動跟大家講說,這個雖然是陳建仁提的,可是是我支持的。"},{"start":6337.887,"end":6362.625,"text":"然後優點在哪裡對不對讓大家可以進一步嘛現在你都沒有出征沒有錯沒有錯你都沒有出征然後感覺我比你緊張報告委我們在上個禮拜我就已經請秘書長就這個事情來詢問地方我們該用什麼方式一個告知一個公文還是什麼秘書長已經在上個禮拜在這個禮拜在做決定了公文不夠啦公文往來就是大家都知道是慣樣文章啦院長齁"},{"start":6364.246,"end":6390.813,"text":"我覺得如果你覺得四個很重要就來因為我覺得這四個沒過齁陳耀祥要連任我覺得剛剛你看到他那種態度他如果繼續做NC主委中共如果介入政論節目還得了啊台灣人永遠看政論節目沒有安心的一天啊當時民進黨說中共有中央廚房欸中央廚房影響政論節目我現在看政論節目啊我都在想說是不是有中央廚房欸"},{"start":6392.438,"end":6421.841,"text":"當然現在已經有這樣的疑慮了。主管機關NCC被民進黨寄予厚望的NCC有發文給工協會。聽陸委會才知道東森。這種NCC主委你要讓他繼續連任喔?院長你支持喔?所以院長接下來你就兩個抉擇。我講得很白就兩個抉擇。第一個抉擇是你7月31號你所支持的這四個陳炳宏、羅惠文、詹毅連、翁博忠"},{"start":6423.354,"end":6451.001,"text":"這一組人要做NCC委員還是陳耀祥、翁伯忠、林立雲、王維京要做NCC委員?你就是做這個抉擇而已啊。如果你的不作為啊,你就是支持陳耀祥啦。你就是變相支持陳耀祥。讓消極的讓陳耀祥繼續做NCC主委。這個不是國人期待的啦。所以兩件事情。第一個,院長如果認為這四個很重要,請你自己跟你把他們溝通。第二個,不然你再提四個。"},{"start":6452.298,"end":6465.852,"text":"因為本來制度的規定為什麼要讓NCC委員經過立法院的同意就是希望不斷的溝通讓他們有民意基礎嘛啊你們要溝通人送過來要審不審隨便你反正你們沒過我還有陳耀祥這個寶在那邊"},{"start":6467.995,"end":6471.379,"text":"不是我剛剛已經跟委員報告過我們現在就希望要繼續溝通對不對比陳耀強好嘛你至少覺得他們比陳耀強好嘛否則就是陳耀強繼續做欸"},{"start":6483.852,"end":6501.194,"text":"你看到他的態度嗎?你看到他的態度嗎?對,但是現在不來往的修法,把那個奇怪規定改掉。因為像那個監察委員,如果新的人士沒有通過,他們沒有延任。大法官如果人士沒有通過,舊的也不能延任。"},{"start":6501.875,"end":6526.84,"text":"所有機關只有NCC的委員新的沒有通過可以延任所有機關只有這樣所以院長你不積極或你不提新的人選你就在保送陳耀祥我覺得好可怕我真的覺得好可怕那我要問院長另外一個問題啦NCC委員如果缺了4個會造成什麼影響會像民進黨講的中共就介入我們政論節目嗎會不會如果缺了4個"},{"start":6527.884,"end":6536.37,"text":"委員做的決議才有執行的這個問題委員做決議的時候人數不足委員人數會不足沒辦法做決議我願意講你講的比那個翁伯忠好他說如果沒有NCCiPhone沒辦法審查你講的比較好但是他把那個放重點了"},{"start":6557.026,"end":6573.234,"text":"他把那個放重點了,你講得比較好所以我對你很有期待,請你趕快要嘛就積極推這四個,要嘛新提四個好不好,你新提四個,大家來審嘛不要讓陳耀強連任啊然後再來我問一下那個地方的問題請交通部長一起上來好不好"},{"start":6575.596,"end":6602.368,"text":"上次院長趁部長上來的時候上次在交通委員會的時候我有跟部長提過我們板橋有一個泰坂輕軌部長還記得嗎?他是連接五泰輕軌嘛泰坂輕軌喔這個泰坂輕軌對我們板橋非常重要他不只是連接了非常多其他捷運還有台鐵福州站而且他入境了很多都市計畫他也連接了土城中和板橋農業區要打造新的新的廊帶"},{"start":6603.619,"end":6630.617,"text":"對我們地方很重要可是這個太阪輕軌的可行性評估從去年一直送送了好幾次包括今年5月又再送一直沒有通過可行性評估一直沒有通過當時委員是說沒有效益但是因為我快沒時間院長我簡單跟你報告王國才在去年的時候前交通部長去年的時候報文板橋參加民進黨立委的造勢大會跟板橋社後地區的民眾講說"},{"start":6631.818,"end":6632.518,"text":"這個可不可以幫我追一下"},{"start":6676.633,"end":6677.934,"text":"好,謝謝葉委員,謝謝卓院長。下一位請邱若驊委員質詢。"},{"start":6694.074,"end":6697.139,"text":"謝謝主席。有請卓院長。卓院長備詢。卓委員好。"},{"start":6706.752,"end":6723.869,"text":"院長好本席今天要和院長討論的是有觀光還有地方的交通建設首先我們來看到桃園是個年輕的城市不僅是國門之都而且擁有豐富的自然資源和文化歷史為觀光發展提供了很多機會是很多國際旅客到訪臺灣的第一站"},{"start":6724.505,"end":6746.312,"text":"那桃園市政府也持續積極的推動北橫精緻旅遊那藉此延長遊客停留的時間深度體驗北橫之美請問中央可以提供哪些資源協助我們桃園市政府協助改善我們地方的地方的旅宿還有旅遊環境以創造旅遊商機還有促進地方的就業"},{"start":6749.653,"end":6767.68,"text":"跟委員報告,我們這幾年補助臺灣市政府來辦理相關的觀光油氣設施的興建跟提升,大概投入了9.7億。另外最近也核定了像珍珠海岸足為永安漁港這邊的部分。"},{"start":6768.36,"end":6781.339,"text":"那另外也很多在活動上協助或是跟市府合辦的,包括像大概我們統計起來這三年有26個案子,像大溪的豆干節,那大溪的一些觀光系列。那部長我們先針對北橫這個地方。"},{"start":6783.883,"end":6809.873,"text":"我想北橫的部分我們目前正在主要這邊可能還要再跟原住民有一些是沒錯因為桃園市政府是108年的時候就辦理華盛北橫國家風景區那並於今年7月的時候有含送北橫地區的環境資源調查還有評鑑作業到我們的交通部觀光署那後續還仍需經評鑑盧部長說然後部落會議需要過半數決議同意才能"},{"start":6811.193,"end":6835.807,"text":"的程序才能夠成立這個國家風景區那交通部的周署長觀光署的周署長那今年3月的時候也在交通委員會的時候本期在質詢署長有指出目前還有兩項需要來做客服這部分需要院長來做協助那第一就是原住民部落還需經過部落會議的討論那第二個是相關部會之間的橫向協調那比如說我們的農業部"},{"start":6837.423,"end":6863.516,"text":"我們的農業部林業及自然環保署原民會那本席當場也請我們周署長協助嘛那這項計畫一度被中央擱置是因為涉及我們復興區原住民部落的權益那這部分可以請部長可以請院長來做協助嗎召開原住民部落會議因為這個會議需要一個一個部落的會議召開難度非常高那這個也需要我們院長的協助院長能夠承諾嗎"},{"start":6866.858,"end":6893.391,"text":"是我想這個部分就是跨部會這個我們一定會來處理就是說院裡面還有部裡面大概就會相關像跟石門水庫有關那現在可能是但是原住民的諮商這個因為部落有一個自主權可能不是我們能夠行政指導去處理不過我們會請原民會來協助從旁來協助什麼時候可以召開"},{"start":6894.591,"end":6911.204,"text":"您是說跨部會議還是說部落?跨部會的會議以及橫向的溝通。是。我們這邊其實都有持續在協商。我最近會把這些協商的成果跟目前還在克服的問題我會整理一份跟委員這邊做說明。"},{"start":6913.027,"end":6930.508,"text":"因為那個會議其實是持續在召開的,另外我覺得北橫這邊有很多很豐富的觀光資源,包括像拉拉山,所以我們是支持這邊透過一個化之為國家風景區,那麼來促成它的這個觀光的提升。"},{"start":6931.064,"end":6943.972,"text":"我們看到了復興那接下來我們看桃園大溪桃園大溪名列全國的十大觀光小城那依據交通部觀光署公布112年度的觀光修器據點人事統計我們大溪老城區是遊客造訪桃園排名第一"},{"start":6944.397,"end":6966.27,"text":"那既然大溪老街是一個絕佳的旅遊地點也受我們入境遊客的喜愛中央應該協助我們大溪改善我們大溪地方的交通以地方期盼能有第三座聯外橋樑為例臺灣市政府正在規劃大溪兩岸跨橋橋樑的設計以解決目前聯外交通只能靠武嶺橋還有坎津大橋那每到假日"},{"start":6966.73,"end":6974.397,"text":"我們地方的交通可說是篩爆來形容嚴重影響地方的觀光那待規劃設計方案完成中央是否能夠補助桃園?"},{"start":6979.41,"end":6998.284,"text":"大溪這邊確實是有老街有非常多的古蹟還有特色美食也有很漂亮的風景所以整個觀光其實非常的蓬勃那剛剛您提到的要增設這個橋樑我們會後會跟國土署這邊一起來研商看怎麼樣來協助市府這邊來做這個促成"},{"start":7000.325,"end":7011.259,"text":"大西的美食跟文化歷史算是軟實力那我們需要硬體建設那這第三座橋樑是我們地方民眾我們都樂觀啟程那希望部長院長可以協助這筆經費那盡快召開會議"},{"start":7014.818,"end":7041.545,"text":"還有其他另外我們看到捷運綠線延伸到大溪一岸那桃園市政府在送可行性研究報告修正之後那請中央這邊可以加速辦理審議作業以及交通部盡快提出板龍快速道路可行性評估報告這部分院長可以承諾嗎?綠線現在進行的工程我們在4月已經有核定它的綜合規劃那現在就是幾個這個"},{"start":7043.206,"end":7063.204,"text":"哪一段路要先,總經費有到800多億啊,這個大的工程計畫。那這個幾個站口會先,站到站之間會先行讓他通車,所以希望在115年能夠先行通車。目前的計畫在這樣進行當中。那希望在119年,目標啊119年,讓他全線能夠通車,這是綠線的部分。"},{"start":7066.707,"end":7089.464,"text":"議員提到延伸到大溪那這個部分我們在去年11月有把審查意見給市政府那市政府現在還在修正那他如果修正報上來我們會以協助的角度希望來協助他們現在中央和市政府的共識是希望這條捷運大溪的捷運綠線可以延伸到老街那我們也希望在修正報告之後那我們能盡快的來辦理"},{"start":7092.777,"end":7105.931,"text":"接下來我們都希望可以藉由觀光帶動地方的經濟發展但前提交通建設要完善也希望中央持續給桃園支持部長大力的協助我們接下來看到"},{"start":7106.974,"end":7131.999,"text":"我們台灣除了入境台灣的觀光旅客還有過境台灣的轉機客對於我國每年約有500萬名的轉機客今年3月交通部表示有著手吸引轉機客入境旅遊像是針對東南亞等國家有24小時、48小時、72小時等方案也要爭取我們移民署可以同意那後來為什麼就沒有進度了"},{"start":7133.499,"end":7150.514,"text":"是,主要就是原來是想說這些轉機客如果能夠協助他過去如果在別的先進國家也有簽證我們這邊就可以同意他免簽但是因為跟移民署討論確實是有一些"},{"start":7151.495,"end":7151.515,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":7176.204,"end":7195.135,"text":"那預計什麼時候可以來做開放呢?這個部分因為移民署單位他們有一些考量,所以還需要再進一步溝通協調。因為會提到轉機客,因為院長您於5月30號行政院會聽取交通部拓展觀光新亮點,帶動兆元產業。"},{"start":7196.67,"end":7217.797,"text":"報告後表示請交通部要持續透過多元管道擴大宣傳吸引國際旅客早日順利達成千萬旅客來臺的目標可是我們看到原本設定從1200萬的人次已經到3月底已經下修至1000萬人次了那上週部長也說到截至6月底"},{"start":7218.807,"end":7234.965,"text":"來臺的國際旅客大約是380萬人是嗎?那距離1000萬人是這個數字還有很大的努力空間。部長你也很有信心的說年底是觀光旅遊的旺季那既然很有信心能夠承諾不會再次二度下修嗎?"},{"start":7236.344,"end":7250.524,"text":"我們會來努力我想今年一千萬的目標確實是有受到0403花蓮地震的影響因為泰魯閣目前還沒有辦法開放那很多國際旅客其實是受到泰魯閣這個吸引"},{"start":7251.766,"end":7255.389,"text":"因為我本期看到啟動全新台灣觀光新品牌,其中有提到環島亮點捲動國旅,我想不只是花蓮,全台的旅遊都可以來做發展。"},{"start":7272.369,"end":7290.901,"text":"所以我想像最近阿里山這個鐵路開通恢復行駛那我想阿里山這個高山鐵路在世界也是非常稀有非常珍貴那我們會把臺灣幾個有特色的景點再加強國際宣傳那希望讓國際旅客能夠更增多的來臺灣這個旅遊"},{"start":7295.08,"end":7314.268,"text":"好,院長,賴清德總統擔任行政院長的時候曾經表示過推動重大的建設是行政團隊期許國家發展經濟壯大臺灣的基礎政府會持續建設臺灣,讓交通四通八達促進地方的發展地方建設不分黨派,您同意嗎?當然是那請看簡報"},{"start":7316.496,"end":7345.903,"text":"包括國道3號偵測桃園8的交流道工程,交流道用地經費補助,還有推動桃園市快速道路可行性評估,桃園市機場捷運1200月票營收款補助比例,桃園市市區客運虧損補貼等事項。這邊,我們桃園市的交通建設正在發展,有很多重大的交通建設工程都在進行中。"},{"start":7347.746,"end":7363.032,"text":"桃園市政府為了配合賴清的總統提出的桃竹苗大矽谷計畫正在推動桃園未來包括城中城快速道路等三條完善快速道路系統只可行性評估。院長您可否同意補助八千九百萬元的經費?"},{"start":7365.667,"end":7379.043,"text":"大溪谷的桃樹苗大溪谷的案子是牽扯到整個高科技產業的發展對桃園地區現在已經好的基礎應該是好上加好所以健全他的交通線是當然是重要的那也非常謝謝剛剛委員的上一張圖把"},{"start":7381.766,"end":7381.786,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":7404.466,"end":7424.765,"text":"更有餘力能夠來納進更多。所以這些部分的資料我們再詳細來詳閱。委員我先跟您報告板龍快速道路還有新梅隆快速道路這個經費都已經有了目前有的已經招標有的正在招標階段所以已經在進行"},{"start":7425.245,"end":7445.03,"text":"那我會再了解這兩條之外委員是不是還有提到其他的快速道路的這個規劃我們再看怎麼樣來跟那我們看到博山政社巴陀交流道交流道的用地費是11.19億由市府負擔另外的新闢聯絡道工程部分也是由市府負責經費71.89億因此這11億還有70多億的經費總達83億對市府的負擔是相當沉重的"},{"start":7452.552,"end":7467.222,"text":"如果要帶市政府經費全數到位,可能影響到115年中的動工目標,因此建請中央補助一例,加速推動,請問院長可以同意這項費用嗎?由我們的交通部來做補助。"},{"start":7467.765,"end":7484.795,"text":"委員說的是這個交流道,大英豐德交流道,這個計畫已經合訂了,那目前在辦理這個設計跟作業當中,那中央跟地方的分配比例,經費的分配已經在合訂當中名列了。這個是由市府負擔的部分。其實它79.65億,"},{"start":7487.697,"end":7514.05,"text":"中央就負擔工程費68億那地方只負擔這個用地費11億所以其實是對地方來講而且這個是全國統一的規定就是說各地要增設交流道都是由地方負擔用地費中央來協助工程費的這個部分那比例上看起來我們今天沒有要討論採劃法嗎那地方就是因為經費拮据所以這邊要請交通部還有請院長來做協助"},{"start":7515.311,"end":7533.188,"text":"我們的負擔已經是桃園的6倍了。中央負擔68億,用地費11億。這個是這個案合定當時的一個比例的分配。而且是全國的。對,全國的比例是都用地費的地方來負擔。市政府負擔的費用也達了83億。總經費是79億。地方道路的、新闢道路的工程費用。"},{"start":7541.728,"end":7550.357,"text":"所以委員指的是說因為桃園這次有很多增設的交流道或者增設的道路總不能一條高速公路做好了可是沒有聯絡到嗎"},{"start":7553.352,"end":7576.98,"text":"我整個再整理一下因為桃園我記得值得大概有4、5個交流到都在徵社當中再請部長回去再提供本席書面資料那在本席在6月13號交通委員會的交通業務報告提到巴德非常重要的捷運31線延伸至巴德段計劃國發會已經審查通過那接下來待行政院核定後即可興建當時本席有請部長一起做協助那部長也答覆就是會"},{"start":7583.605,"end":7590.331,"text":"﹚國會審議和定本案的綜合規劃報告書修正版之後已經抱怨了,那後續的行政院審核進度目前到哪了?"},{"start":7596.82,"end":7611.605,"text":"目前我的了解是國安會已經審議審議那抱怨那怨在呈核的階段呈核階段已經呈核了半個月本席因為當時有提當時有提到說這個有時間上面的急迫性希望行政院"},{"start":7647.248,"end":7651.249,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員。謝謝卓院長。"},{"start":7653.72,"end":7671.737,"text":"陽耀委員之質詢已書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報。報告委員會交通組之質詢已詢答完畢。休息10分鐘。休息之後進行司法及法制組之質詢。現在休息。"},{"start":8323.488,"end":8329.95,"text":"報告委員會現在繼續開會,進行司法及法制組之質詢。請羅委員自強質詢,詢答時間15分鐘。有請卓院長。請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":8355.933,"end":8373.014,"text":"各位好院長好賴清哲總統曾說要不分黨派不問何人只要涉及非法檢調都應該查辦勿枉勿重這句話我認同在這邊我要先肯定就是我們的鄭明謙部長為什麼"},{"start":8374.417,"end":8397.88,"text":"因為鄭文燦涉貪案已經案經7年,邱泰山不敢辦,然後蔡清祥不敢辦,最後鄭明謙當部長之後檢察機關終於動起來。但是我還是也要提醒一下,就是希望我們的院長、法務部長跟檢察官不要犯三個選擇性的錯誤。"},{"start":8399.99,"end":8423.34,"text":"雖然說今天鄭文燦涉貪案已經開始辦了但我還是要跟我們的院長就教一下有些東西我看不太懂我常覺得民進黨的首長、縣市長好像涉及貪毒案似乎有一個特權列車在裡面保護著他"},{"start":8424,"end":8451.009,"text":"先不講我剛剛前面講7年的案子好不容易等到賴清哲總統上任了才解封那前面的部長是幹嘛吃鹹飯還是在吃案押案第二個我也很納悶過去不管是辦高雄安的案子辦這個陽文科的案子辦林芝廟的案子哇不得了欸兵分18路28路38路48路撿掉大舉搜索啊"},{"start":8452.319,"end":8468.877,"text":"鄭文燦不用欸好好的沒事欸能不能請教院長為什麼會有這樣的一個差別待遇啊我還是尊重檢調單位他們專業的調查啦對啊你尊重不論是哪一個人或是哪幾個人部分黨派部分個人謝謝你的尊重齁"},{"start":8470.247,"end":8489.922,"text":"不只如此,你會發現齁,基本上我們的,當然這個跟法務部也沒有關係,生壓的結果呢,結果呢,送錢的收壓,收錢的不壓。我覺得鄭文燦真的是桃園經營的蠻好,連桃園地方法院我看他經營都不錯。"},{"start":8490.956,"end":8519.059,"text":"所以有一些特權的待遇在鄭文燦身上就看到了他發聲但不管怎麼樣今天我給鄭部長一個肯定至少顯示你沒有押案施案至少此時此刻但是我接下來有幾個也要請我們的行政團隊我們請法務部跟檢察官可能要注意的一件事事實上鄭文燦過去所涉及的疑案不只是林口公武擴大用地"},{"start":8520.103,"end":8545.524,"text":"鄭文燦過去有很多的案子我也希望能夠一併的好好的了解一下我曾經說過全台灣我最佩服的縣市長民進黨的縣市長就是鄭文燦因為鄭文燦曾經有天地水火四大政績我不知道院長有沒有聽過我們鄭文燦的豐功為業天地水火四大政績哪四大你知道嗎我告訴你第一個天政績"},{"start":8547.028,"end":8563.457,"text":"桃園巴德運動中心蓋完馬上一個三級地震天花板塌光光被笑稱所謂的最佳的地震體驗館請問一下我們的司法單位有沒有去了解一下有沒有偷工減料啊"},{"start":8564.192,"end":8586.397,"text":"有沒有到現在有沒有是立案調查或是去了解一下,有沒有偷工減料?這部分我們尊重那個整個台灣地檢署的一個偵辦,因為法務部我們也不參與。我謝謝你的尊重啦,起碼這次你尊重結果鄭文燦終於7年前的案子被辦了啦。所以今天部長我今天是特別尊重你,你講的話我都接受。"},{"start":8587.179,"end":8612.767,"text":"第二個什麼叫做這個地震機啊。憑證的地下停車場然後在2020年4月蓋完就塌了。然後呢造成一死二傷的慘劇啊。中間有沒有偷工減料人謀不章也拜託我們尊重地檢署的我們的法務部長你也是沉思我們司法正義的一個守門人啊。"},{"start":8613.615,"end":8637.084,"text":"我也希望我們的檢察官也能夠好好了解一下第三個水政機也很亮眼陽梅區公署在2021年8月初結果行政大樓颱風外圍環流降雨影響地下水位上升導致結構體上浮45公分形成陽梅水上飄的奇景"},{"start":8638.831,"end":8640.652,"text":"阿中間有沒有偷工減料?"},{"start":8640.652,"end":8643.472,"text":"有沒有人模不彰?再來是什麼呢?"},{"start":8643.472,"end":8667.019,"text":"火政機,如足美福倉儲火災燒,連燒二十幾天也創了我們台灣這個火災燒的日數最久的一個紀錄也是在我們鄭文燦市長的任內啊所以我要講今天不是辦這七年前的舊案要辦就通通辦第二個我也想請教一下"},{"start":8668.428,"end":8694.92,"text":"當然外界有很多一些所謂的政治陰謀論有人也擔心今天辦這個案子7年前這個案子到現在辦可能會雷聲大雨點小請問院長你對於我們的檢查機關有沒有信心啊會不會雷聲大雨點小部長除了尊重之外就是按照證據跟事實來辦案這個才重要如果說今天鄭文燦涉貪事實明確"},{"start":8696.445,"end":8703.671,"text":"今天政部長你有肩膀有擔當來做檢察官的後盾讓他查辦到底嗎?有沒有肩膀?"},{"start":8705.752,"end":8711.355,"text":"對於我講的很簡單對於檢察官勇於認識你作為法務部長作為行政院長就要擔當我們檢察官的後盾我就講另外一件事啊"},{"start":8731.466,"end":8745.132,"text":"這位檢察官辦了鄭文燦的案子之後,現在不得了了,變渣男了,你有沒有發現?部長有沒有發現?媒體開始去挖他的私生活,開始去打擊他。我要跟部長跟院長說,"},{"start":8746.909,"end":8762.537,"text":"有餘認識的檢察官不分黨派今天偵辦弊案行政團隊就要給予支持也請部長今天能當檢察官的後盾當然還是有一件事我也不希望今天是雷聲大雨點小"},{"start":8763.629,"end":8777.326,"text":"外面很多人在想因為鄭文燦對不對在過去跟賴清德總統有諸多恩怨賴清德總統跟鄭文燦在處位之爭當中有很多的宮廷的糾結"},{"start":8778.7,"end":8798.443,"text":"那因為我們鄭文燦桃園雖然這個選舉成績不理想但是最近新北市長民調高然後呢接下來呢打他一槍把新北市長打掉之後然後呢雙方各退一步接下來弊案就不了了之我希望不要到處變政治交換啦可不可以"},{"start":8800.877,"end":8827.875,"text":"我認為絕對不要用這種不正確的邏輯來看一個司法案件。謝謝,我希望這個邏輯不正確,但我們就等著看。看看鄭文燦的案子最後走向你這個不正確的結果。第三個我要講,我講第三個選擇性,抱歉,不是只有鄭文燦案。過去民進黨八年執政真的是避絕風輕,原來就是蓋牌效應造成的。不判就沒閉案啊。"},{"start":8829.54,"end":8850.737,"text":"七年前的案子到現在才開始還要賴清德總上任新官上任三把火開始要辦了我是肯定啦今天不分黨派辦B案賴清德總統我肯定他但是不要選擇性不要跟我講說只有鄭文燦林志堅新竹棒球場請問到現在進度是什麼部長你知道嗎"},{"start":8852.995,"end":8879.582,"text":"你不要再跟我講尊重地檢署檢察官了啦你對通案也該有了解的責任啦反正有民眾有告發那個檢控就會依法偵辦那這部分我們本部的立場我們是不會去我告訴你,磁塵大海我直接跟你講比你更了解沒銷沒洗啦沒下文啦第二個第三個我們另外一位現在貴為民進黨秘書長的林佑昌我來跟大家講"},{"start":8881.138,"end":8901.286,"text":"你也發現東岸停車場的問題齁有沒有發現這個大日公司齁像基隆市政府齁曾租商場然後將惡房東將商場經營權包給Net每月收租250萬元每年收租3000萬元規避商場全年總營業額7億元未記錄契約會計營收報表造成8年經營權權利金是0元"},{"start":8910.663,"end":8919.08,"text":"政府短收近25億元還發生大日公司跟基隆市政府還沒有決議徵件前就急急忙忙準備徵件"},{"start":8920.27,"end":8947.984,"text":"被先斬後奏之後結果呢基隆市政府遲遲沒有去申報產權差點讓公共財產被用來圖利民間企業最後大日公司被查出在其他同性質的案件當中爆發弊案被解約民間訴訟歸民間訴訟啦但即便涉及非常多公權力的弊病可是到現在為止我也沒有看到我們的檢方有任何動起來啊"},{"start":8948.976,"end":8971.682,"text":"事實上法院之前已經還明確的一個地方法院的判決,已經講基隆市政府與大日公司約定由大日公司出資,細增建物完成後,闢為商場,由基隆市政府取得。結果呢,你會看到還有包括增建部分納入後續委託營運範圍由大日公司營運,判定"},{"start":8972.482,"end":8999.778,"text":"內特的主日公司就是判定大日的這個所謂的一個球場是敗訴的還謝國洋公道這牽涉兩件事情我要在這邊也要提醒部長不要民進黨的縣市長遇到任何爭議的東西就有特殊待遇啊像鄭文燦可以7年耶押案7年現在才開始動起來那林志堅呢那林右昌呢"},{"start":9001.199,"end":9023.345,"text":"請問要不要了解一下為什麼不登記產權為什麼今天當初留下這麼大的一個問題讓後面基隆市政府必須跟內的公司對簿公堂這不就是今天裡面涉及的疑雲重重嗎這個我也希望我們的部長能夠好好的我們院長好好的去查辦一下接下來我就要講我想請教一下院長"},{"start":9027.435,"end":9035.912,"text":"我們這個臺南市區與會理事長林士傑被槍擊身亡一案請問目前掌握狀況如何?"},{"start":9037.453,"end":9062.11,"text":"報告委員早上我們已經邀集內政部跟法務部部長警政署長以及刑事警察局的局長就這個案件在做一次的匯報那現在我們不鎖定任何的動機就是讓他能夠廣泛的去調查那也不排除任何的可能那現在專案小組已經在啟動有若干的掌握但是現在都不變對外說我跟院長說跟部長說態度更積極"},{"start":9065.848,"end":9081.126,"text":"你上面有一個眼睛看著你知道誰在看著你嗎賴清德在看著今天林士傑在不久之前才捲入政府議長的會選案恐嚇案背書女兒是民進黨現任的市議員"},{"start":9084.022,"end":9113.096,"text":"那過去齁你看到台南市盧渣案、光電案、陳宗彥、陳凱琳接受姓趙大案、政府議長會選案再加上這一次政府議長會選案重大關係人竟然被槍殺我覺得民進黨很對不起台南人捏民進黨台南執政這麼久陣風敗壞、弊案雲雲、疑雲重重然後現在還發生什麼呢槍擊命案"},{"start":9114.681,"end":9143.471,"text":"請問這是民進黨長期治治下的臺南嗎?請問這是賴清德總統治理過的臺南嗎?今天臺南這樣的事情是民進黨對不起臺南人啊多年下來臺南人臺南被經營成變成是一個犯罪城市嗎?我不知道院長你怎麼看你會不會覺得賴清德很關切這件事情總統關切所有地方的治安問題我認為臺南的地方檢警單位要加油"},{"start":9144.959,"end":9170.879,"text":"對沒錯我們也要求我們中央部會要直接對臺南這個事件特別特別的重視希望能夠儘快的能夠釐清出來之後哪裡有缺失哪裡就是改善我希望齁這個院長這句話不是空口白話希望能夠真正努力來去做到執行不然說真的臺南這些事情真的我覺得你民進黨耐心得你連面也掛不住阿"},{"start":9172.11,"end":9173.431,"text":"實際上在這個臺灣民意基金會今年4月公布的民調"},{"start":9196.089,"end":9223.43,"text":"司法改革是最後一名只有35.6%滿意不滿意高達第1號54.6%那我想請教一下目前來說的話我們可以看到就是其中司法最不讓人家信任有一件事情就是掙扎不公開沒有落實嘛院長你有掌握到吧我們掙扎不公開不要講沒有落實我就講別的事情講現在的事情"},{"start":9224.485,"end":9239.064,"text":"林志妙案、這個高黃灣案跟楊文科案乃至於現在鄭文燦案很不好意思啊你有沒有發現一個問題所有案情全部媒體都逗光光欸院長你有注意到吧部長有注意到吧"},{"start":9241.134,"end":9262.492,"text":"這部分是偵查不公開的,我們是在5月30號也召開的一個精進的研修會。我幫你講結論啦,因為我時間也沒有了啦。那這部分齁。7255件被檢討案子裡面檢察官起訴零件啦,行政處分十幾件。偵查不公開變偵查大公開,拜託我現在也要求修法法治化,希望兩位。"},{"start":9284.898,"end":9295.667,"text":"謝謝羅委員。謝謝卓院長。報告委員會司法及法治組織質詢已詢答完畢。休息五分鐘。休息之後,"},{"start":9296.493,"end":9297.697,"text":"進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢。現在休息。"},{"start":9608.843,"end":9615.444,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會,進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢。請黃委員見好質詢。詢答時間15分鐘。好,謝謝主席。主席我們先請院長。好,請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":9641.906,"end":9656.862,"text":"委員長好 院長今天呢想要先跟院長來討論首先討論這個少子女化的問題啊我們都知道說目前少子女化應該是國安問題我想確認一下院長我們現在新內閣有沒有把少子女化問題視為國安問題"},{"start":9658.561,"end":9681.73,"text":"一直是這從之前的內閣到現在都把這個當作很重要的國家重要問題來做解決。謝謝院長我想大家看到這個最近的數據近10年的出生人數跟死亡人數的這個比較近4年來我想這個出生率低於死亡率已經大家坊間稱為這叫生不如死的狀態那對於國人為什麼不願意生小孩我想有很多面向可以探討"},{"start":9682.31,"end":9695.923,"text":"但今天針對的部分想要討論說提升女性勞動參與率跟外籍家庭辦公放寬還有家庭照顧價放寬這些問題來救教一下我們院長我想先從這個女性勞參與率的部分"},{"start":9697.086,"end":9709.173,"text":"這個是去年國發會的統計女性勞參率30歲後逐年的來下滑那整體勞參率從亞洲各國來看的話日本韓國的女性勞動參與率分別平均還是有53.5跟53.3還是高於台灣的這個50%"},{"start":9713.795,"end":9728.016,"text":"那同為亞洲國家新加坡也有64%那北歐國家瑞典是高達7成1我想這個女性勞參率下降30歲一路下降很大一部分原因就我的觀察來講是因為婚育的關係啊"},{"start":9728.746,"end":9749.206,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":9749.526,"end":9775.354,"text":"為什麼這女性勞動參與率最近這裡會比較大家會關注我想就從我們這個大專校院畢業生人出來看我想我們女性我國女性受到高等教育的這個學位在數據上看起來其實跟男性不相上下但在事實上還有現實面上真的有很多這個女性她因為家庭而被迫要放棄工作不管是在家照顧幼兒也好甚至照顧長輩這些我想都是"},{"start":9776.014,"end":9779.075,"text":"所以今天第一個問題想討論是說這個放寬台灣家庭聘用外籍家庭的限制啊"},{"start":9796.522,"end":9810.807,"text":"那我剛提到說一直提到說這些女性不斷的被綁在家庭我的數據來自於哪裡數據來自於衛福部111年兒童及少年生活狀況調查報告的部分這個我國雙薪家庭就育有"},{"start":9811.926,"end":9835.536,"text":"六歲以下就學齡前兒童的家庭的這個父母親百分之六十二雙年家庭那父母均有工作的這個家庭就父母均有工作是百分之六十一點七那只有父親有工作的占百分之三十二點四那只有母親有工作是百分之四點四那如果依照工時來觀察父親需要在週末工作的占百分之四十四點六高於母親的"},{"start":9836.696,"end":9865.406,"text":"反正30.2那整體來講平均工作時數父親也是高於母親那從這個學齡前兒童申請育兒留職停息的狀況實際上來看母親申請育兒留庭的比例是34%那爸爸呢只有6.4%這個是從數據上很明顯看到多數時候都是媽媽在申請留庭那平均申請的留庭的月數媽媽是8.8個月爸爸平均只有5.9個月那如果平均來看的話"},{"start":9866.653,"end":9895.082,"text":"再看下一個數據這個有趣的觀察這父母親你如果沒有申請留職銀行的原因的話媽媽的原因是因為這個小孩已經有其他人來照顧占了37.7%跟當時沒有在工作占了31.5%那換到爸爸呢爸爸的原因是因為這個有他人照顧51.1%那改由配偶通常是媽媽配偶來申請的話26.8%所以爸爸的原因有一部分是因為媽媽已經把我申請完了"},{"start":9895.882,"end":9918.395,"text":"那如果從這個實際的照顧安排的話,0至3歲未滿3歲的部分由父母親照顧的比例最高是42.5%父母親自己照顧。那麼32.6%是送出去、托嬰或是各項機構。但是如果過了3歲到幼稚園的部分,就讀幼兒園的比例就高達91%,自己照顧的驟降到5.6%,這是這個衛福部的統計。所以看到0至3歲3到6歲有一個很奇怪的節點。"},{"start":9925.063,"end":9929.125,"text":"所以今天我要提到說為什麼今天特別提這家庭放寬的機制我想現代社會多數都是雙薪家庭的情況下照顧小孩這件事情"},{"start":9952.363,"end":9952.483,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":9976.377,"end":9979.038,"text":"當然如果能夠提供好的這個家庭,帶小孩的這個環境的話,那讓女性能夠再度參與勞動市場,這個社會的生產力絕對是有幫忙的。"},{"start":10001.496,"end":10018.521,"text":"實務上我們知道為什麼今天特別提到這個案子就是因為實際上來講當然台灣現在有很多人聘用的是所謂的家庭看護工但他聘用家庭看護工他實際上理論上因為我們現在所謂的八四兩表他來是要來做這個家庭看護的工作但是實際上"},{"start":10020.006,"end":10041.615,"text":"社會的現實面上很多人其實把家庭看護工也同時的去做了所謂的從事房舍清理啊食物棚條跟家庭成員起居照料跟其他家事服務有關的工作就是台灣在面對這件事情上面在家事一共上面他把家庭看護工跟家庭幫傭的這個工作來把它混淆在一起院長你知不知道有這個現實的狀態"},{"start":10043.507,"end":10065.657,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10065.777,"end":10084.813,"text":"但是家庭幫傭如果被抓到的話當然會被罰錢啦在按照我們的就業服務法裡面他當然會有這個懲罰的機制但是實際上就是有這個需求所以我想問一下我們目前的這個院內或是我們部內的看法願不願意往這個方向來放寬所謂家庭幫傭的方向來思考"},{"start":10085.438,"end":10107.151,"text":"目前試考的方式我想請勞動部先說明。跟委員報告關於這個家庭幫傭的開放確實在過去的陳院長任內也都有討論過。那麼主要是我們國內的保母團體他們也很顧慮說這樣子的開放對幼兒的成長未必好。"},{"start":10107.791,"end":10113.816,"text":"那麼還有包括那個這個可能會衝擊國內保母的就業機會啦所以這確實是一個也必要考慮的問題可是委員我們現在已經開始規劃一個叫做多元陪伴服務方案那這是我們最近嘗試的一個有彈性的有NGO團體"},{"start":10125.725,"end":10142.602,"text":"﹚"},{"start":10142.602,"end":10148.986,"text":"謝謝部長,我也跟院長跟部長分享,當然現在家庭裡面,尤其雙薪有現在很多年輕家庭,他遇到的問題是說,剛剛包含說部長提到的這個保姆的問題,但是問題是說現在很多從幼稚園下課,或是說從保姆家裡面接回來之後,"},{"start":10170.418,"end":10199.321,"text":"他這個家長不管是爸爸或媽媽或雙邊他回到家裡面他還是要面臨很大量的家務他還是很多家務要處理那家務處理同時他也要陪伴小孩那陪伴小孩當然有很多這個層次的問題不管是這個陪伴他快樂的閱讀也好還是說把這個他基本的生活起居照顧好也好這個都是他下班之後要回來的這一段所以我們希望今天提出來的問題說希望能夠解決的是讓這個少子化問題是希望讓這些家庭"},{"start":10200.141,"end":10204.526,"text":"因為其實還有一個問題,我們現階段台灣的法律啊,我們其實本國人跟外國人的這個規範是不一樣的嘛,部長應該很清楚,院長應該很清楚啊。"},{"start":10220.001,"end":10242.59,"text":"外國人在臺灣高薪或是白領階級的他這個薪水一定程度的我們是看他的薪資結構來決定他能不能請所謂的這個家庭幫優但對本國人的限制有很多條件啊我覺得很多家庭最大的反應是說現階段的規定是要六歲以下三個我才能夠請啊"},{"start":10243.527,"end":10272.689,"text":"外國人不用啊,外國人是我只要心是達到一定水準我的生活條件達到一定水準我就能夠請但你對本國人的限制是你要生6歲以下生3個我才能請我想問一下這個實務上院長跟部長你們覺得在台灣現階段情況下面的家庭結構下面有多少家庭他可以生6個生3個6歲以下的人是小孩很難吧而且這很難達到這個我就算今年達到了我小孩明年7歲之後怎麼辦"},{"start":10273.783,"end":10273.803,"text":"院長﹖"},{"start":10301.288,"end":10321.682,"text":"現在有一些建議希望能夠彈性的來計算這種加權的分數,比如說家裡如果有獨居的老人或是說年紀比較高的長者或是兒童本身他有特別需要照顧的情況底下,我想有這些建議,這個建議現在研議的方向怎麼樣,跟外界的討論跟交換意見到底怎麼樣,勞動部來說明一下。"},{"start":10323.303,"end":10330.796,"text":"是,各位報告,我們也有請我們的相關部門正在研究這方面的點數的放寬,這個我們會來處理。所以這個會期,來不及了。"},{"start":10337.881,"end":10357.43,"text":"要多久?應該說這個會期來不及,但這個檢討要多久?我們會盡快來處理。我們會盡快來處理。因為之前前部長也說會盡快處理,但是我想現在換部長了。因為跟委員報告這個就還是必須進行社會溝通。我們要跟這個相關的利益方,我們都有一些討論之後,我們會盡快來"},{"start":10359.823,"end":10384.995,"text":"來處理這件事情我還是拜託院長跟部長在這個事件上面應該還是要朝放寬的這個方向讓市場自由競爭讓民眾讓這些所謂的家庭有顧小孩的家庭或打算生小孩家庭他有選擇的權利而不是把他限制在某些條件裡面我想這個是面對少子化要拿出一個務實的態度當然理論很美好但是現實就是很骨感"},{"start":10385.475,"end":10403.94,"text":"坦白說我也知道說這個保姆團體或者是這個很多的這個團體會有意見但是回到真正的有照顧小孩的家庭我們提出來的具體的問題他就像面臨到我每天下班之後或是一定要有一個人在家裡面犧牲自己的工作來照顧小孩"},{"start":10404.44,"end":10409.064,"text":"謝謝委員這個建議我個人我本人也認為有這個需求那我們如何來增加這個彈性的計算更多元的來選擇這個我想下半年我們來做一個決定好不好"},{"start":10433.502,"end":10460.612,"text":"好謝謝院長接下來這個議題結束我們來討論最後兩分鐘我們討論一下我們臺灣溫室氣體的部分我想臺灣溫室氣體排放前九大有七大這都是屬於發電業那我想上週五也召開過第四次的碳費費率審議會那我想目前也沒有正確的一個結論那當然原因是什麼原因就是因為我想從我們統計的數字來看如果"},{"start":10461.991,"end":10483.232,"text":"二氧,能源部門的二氧化碳排放量,直接排放量佔70%,但是現在的算法是把它算成進階排放,因為你賣給,賣出去之後就算消費者身上了,就賣給消費端了,所以這時候變成剩下14%,我想前陣子環境部還甚至講說,這個樹會造成空氣汙染,大家都覺得說那事業你不敢拿。"},{"start":10483.592,"end":10513.592,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":10513.852,"end":10530.209,"text":"我明明ESG做得很好但是因為我的店我沒有得選啊我台灣的發電結構就長這樣子所以我必須去承擔這個成本我不知道這個能夠把70%降到40%這個做法是環境部的意見還是經濟部的意見部長"},{"start":10532.01,"end":10557.351,"text":"這個是當時氣候法定義的結果,那這個大多數的國家也這樣做。當然委員說的也對,有些國家是直接在一起在算,但是我們那時候朝野協商定了氣候變遷因應法,就是照這樣的方式來處理。我想林岳你這樣做啊,對於後續以後在課偵探對,或者是說國外在課偵探的時候,對本國的產業會有很大的改善,希望環境部能夠堅持你的立場,這個前後我們來把事情處理好嗎?"},{"start":10563.941,"end":10579.5,"text":"謝謝黃委員謝謝院長八月會現在在議場二樓旁聽的是南投市婦女會的朋友歡迎你們下一位我們請盧憲一委員質詢"},{"start":10600.066,"end":10626.43,"text":"主席有請部長。好請院長。主委好。今天第二次見面囉。是。好那我先考你幾個問題齁。我們文化安全是什麼?文化安全。文化安全。"},{"start":10638.196,"end":10650.682,"text":"根據加拿大的一個研究就是說你要降低彼此之間的一個誤解歧視要建構一個文化安全的模式通常是在講醫療機構"},{"start":10652.5,"end":10677.892,"text":"醫療機構"},{"start":10678.1,"end":10693.506,"text":"好,我想那個文化這件事情牽涉的很廣,如果以醫療的場域來看,我們必須要有不同文化的族群,他在就醫一定要有平權,包括他的可敬性。"},{"start":10694.435,"end":10710.773,"text":"我們先看一下第三個就是Cultural Safety的下面那個TRAUMATIC AND VIOLENT INFORMED CARE也就是說你在面對這樣一個病人你知不知道他這個跨世代的一個仇恨對他心裡面所造成的影響醫療人員有沒有基本上這樣的一個概念"},{"start":10711.474,"end":10738.266,"text":"那Cultural Humility就是說沒有先入為主的概念那Anti-Racism就是我們一直在講的歧視如果這些文化安全的課程能不能降低這些歧視就在這個安全課程裡面所涵蓋的這個整個範圍那我們目前台灣在做的步驟裡面有沒有在進行因為這個是在原住民主健康法裡面所規定應該要進行的課程我相信"},{"start":10739.451,"end":10764.516,"text":"有在做可是沒有做得很徹底有沒有一個步驟比如說10年計畫20年計畫長遠的規劃我們什麼時候可以達成一個完全消明對文化一個所謂的一個先入為主的一個概念有沒有這樣的一個想法好謝謝委員的關心我們共同在關心原住民的醫療的權利那因為在過去"},{"start":10766.411,"end":10781.214,"text":"七、八年當中在立法院討論到這個題目是非常的熱烈而且大家真的都是同心一致來怎麼樣用各種方式來提升原住民的健康水準在過去幾年的努力"},{"start":10781.84,"end":10808.23,"text":"我們在原住民方面的平均壽命其實已經跟一般台灣的從10歲﹖等一下下面會講到﹖對那這中間表示說我們在軟硬體方面其實都一直在進行不管是在偏鄉的一個硬體衛生所各方面或衛生室甚至活動中心的一個重建我想都有至少有40個計畫在進行在軟體方面我們也希望"},{"start":10808.902,"end":10826.407,"text":"也曾經談過語言方面的一個協助我是希望能夠聽到衛福部有一個短程的、遠程的一個計畫對整個文化一個教育裡面能不能扮演一個角色就是說你先主導以後可以推廣到比如說教育部啊"},{"start":10826.847,"end":10826.867,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":10848.055,"end":10862.883,"text":"好,我想,其實以前我們已經成立了原住民健康政策會,也補助國家衛生研究成立原住民健康研究中心,其實都往這方面在努力,我們會繼續努力。我也跟委員報告,因為原民會今天不在現場。"},{"start":10864.264,"end":10875.951,"text":"原民會跟教育部已經針對這個文化安全的課程有在訂定一個相關的一個辦法那未來跟衛福部還會再進行後續的動作我今天為什麼會講這個就是因為沒有專責機構"},{"start":10880.526,"end":10905.857,"text":"那專責機構我上次有請衛福部到辦公室來討論他們就說目前的想法還是放在一個科科的一個概念我希望能夠升級到處的概念或者是說更高師的概念是不是讓在照顧民族民族或者是三地離島因為以往都是放在一起照顧三地離島的一個族群來說你放在一個科的成績太低"},{"start":10906.517,"end":10906.737,"text":"謝謝委員的執行"},{"start":10935.546,"end":10963.597,"text":"我想盧醫師很清楚我們這幾十年來從我年輕的時候在參與健保署的衛生署的工作就是有一個專門的單位當然是科在負責我想您也很清楚幫忙非常的多那一直在推展那這些其實這些當時的科長後來也都比較晉升到相關重要的位置他們心目中還是一直關心著原住民的一個"},{"start":10964.318,"end":10976.779,"text":"一個一個一個推展那至於說是不要用成立一個專責機構我想我們再來不是是一定要他是原尊民主接本法他有就是說他到底要到哪一個層次"},{"start":10979.349,"end":10997.581,"text":"專責是一定有,但是他的成績在哪裡,我們可以再來研議。好,那我們看下一張。他現在看到的一個比較屬於研究單位的,是在國衛院的一個原住民族健康研究中心。他是有成立,是謝謝有這樣的一個單位。可是我們還是希望有專責機構。再下一張。"},{"start":11002.438,"end":11023.656,"text":"那我們也都知道說我們在原住民地區照顧我們的都是衛生所我問一下院長你最近一次去衛生所被服務的時候是什麼時候我沒有我說我院長我要去打疫苗那什麼時候去年去年去年嗎那部長最近有去衛生所嗎"},{"start":11025.211,"end":11050.606,"text":"我當過衛生署主任,明年我77年我就當過衛生署主任了。最近有沒有到基層醫療打針啊?我希望你們有空的時候去山地離島的衛生所看一下。大概就是要討論山地離島的問題嘛。我在當立委的時候也考察過原鄉的一個衛生所幾次。你有沒有去過山地的衛生所去就醫過?兩位有沒有?"},{"start":11054.428,"end":11067.849,"text":"如果有一天你去霧台的時候看一下霧台距離最近的醫院大概一個小時以上的距離所有的遊客如果受傷或當地的居民需要藥物都是到那裡我們就要講它的嚴格"},{"start":11068.882,"end":11087.278,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":11087.928,"end":11089.89,"text":"公共衛生服務體系升級策略"},{"start":11106.783,"end":11124.514,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11124.654,"end":11124.674,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":11150.562,"end":11171.974,"text":"你們說有打成目標,我是覺得感覺是非常的,是有點在騙人,因為我看那個服務量,112年4958,你要除以全國,全國五十幾個,而且是全年的人數,這樣實在是一天可能都照顧不到一個病人。"},{"start":11172.674,"end":11195.897,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分應該是要加強它的基礎建設,各地區的,才能夠把真正的遠距醫療把它做好。第二個就是我們所謂的衛生署整建、耐震補強,這個我查到我們自己本身的3D的部分還有霧台箱,它還在招標當中。我覺得它的問題就是金額太低。"},{"start":11196.943,"end":11215.252,"text":"你如果說只是200多萬你要怎麼去在偏遠地區蓋一個衛生室是從無到有的衛生室它不是整件喔它是完全重新蓋一個新的衛生室霧台鄉大武村那那個地方是非常偏遠那你只有這樣的一個金額誰會去標這個工程來做呢"},{"start":11215.572,"end":11215.812,"text":"第三個問題就是"},{"start":11233.459,"end":11261.138,"text":"你們說要強化醫師人員就是說要有彈性不過我看這邊報告上面寫目前符合的就是臺北跟屏東那也就是說臺北跟屏東是完全沒有問題那我想舉例問一下因為現在禁用的我們的醫護人員幾乎他沒有所謂的族別限制語言限制所以他只要是現場OK的人他都可以進來也就是說背景比較重要"},{"start":11261.96,"end":11262.08,"text":"﹚第11屆第12會議"},{"start":11289.662,"end":11298.196,"text":"呃他給他支持他的人來來當護理師不是這樣嗎好謝謝我容我回答一下那第一個就是說"},{"start":11299.076,"end":11322.079,"text":"有關於基層的一個視訊演技醫療的設備我想這個就是我們多年來一直在強調的那一定要給錢給補給技術不然的話常常停頓在那裡其實它的效果也不好其實這個在30年前我們就一直在發展了但是真的還是希望"},{"start":11330.001,"end":11344.564,"text":"我們現在做的是比比澳洲還好因為我們確實是在那個紐西蘭下面然後澳洲的前面那我看我有自己分析一下大概是什麼原因"},{"start":11349.158,"end":11367.536,"text":"澳洲在政府的一個投資大概972萬美金這是他說他這幾年增加了大概38%我們再看下一頁又說今年增加了100萬美金如果我們這樣看其實換算台幣的也沒有很多大概3000多萬我們看下一個"},{"start":11368.837,"end":11393.196,"text":"那如果就紐西蘭來看就差很遠了紐西蘭的話大概就是BillionBillion的話就是30億紐幣的話也是將近是十幾億那如果是20億的對Primary Care的話就是20億20億的話大概如果乘以大概是70%的話是14億這是14億美金喔不是台幣喔那我們看下面"},{"start":11394.474,"end":11420.711,"text":"那他也會算出來說他們對毛利人的一些非毛利人的一些醫療的那個所謂的差距如果說按照他這個所謂在生活上面所造成的一些代價他也算出來我們看下一個我最主要凸顯就是說澳洲的投資只有大概是幾千萬美金"},{"start":11422.651,"end":11437.146,"text":"紐西蘭會那麼進步在我們之上是因為他投入了幾十億美金我是要講的重點是這個那也就是說紐西蘭他一直認為說我們很像是他們毛利人很像把台灣當作母國嗎"},{"start":11438.596,"end":11438.616,"text":"﹚國務委員"},{"start":11464.366,"end":11465.246,"text":"這兩個中心都是國會委員很重要的重點"},{"start":11494.022,"end":11501.657,"text":"好謝謝那謝謝院長謝謝部長我們一起努力謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝謝陸委員下一位我們請蘇清泉委員質詢"},{"start":11528.524,"end":11532.966,"text":"謝謝主席我請院長來我們邱部長卓院長邱部長請備詢主委好院長好我今天主委要問你我不用問邱部長他很認真"},{"start":11553.82,"end":11581.387,"text":"議長,我請問你喔,你未來你會就醫看病看幾次?明年喔?對我沒有辦法預言啦對啊,沒辦法嘛,對不對?現在行政官員,你覺得你未來會看病看幾次?你會看大病還是小病?也不知道,對吧?想說都不知道嘛不知道,都未知嘛,對不對?你自己都不知道你未來要看多少病、要開多少錢?"},{"start":11583.666,"end":11583.746,"text":"議員長,這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":11606.496,"end":11620.541,"text":"我知道委員要檢討的是總額制度,但是每一個家庭,雖然不知道要看病看多少,但是也有留一些錢,固定一些醫療的支出,算到一方誰是這樣。那是破百分啦,破百分,以前時代,那現在還叫一些議長出來做情緒勒索,說什麼一店一口會沖涼,一店0.95就不會沖涼嗎?"},{"start":11634.656,"end":11635.337,"text":"這個點子一點一塊錢的這個事情"},{"start":11658.083,"end":11684.027,"text":"我們應該有共同的一個想法,就是說如果是一點,真的換一塊錢,這個總額制度就打破了,就沒有這個總額了。我們應該有相同的認知才對,如果要維持總額制度,是不是要去檢查?總額做一個目標啦,然後你如果這樣的話,那我問你啊,台電,我請你、我賣你、我賣你要多錢,你告訴我,我給你多錢,電車我要用,你賣不?你嫁不?"},{"start":11687.287,"end":11688.608,"text":"所以一個好的公共政策"},{"start":11704.673,"end":11704.693,"text":"委員長"},{"start":11723.851,"end":11734.91,"text":"全世界沒人這樣在做的,全世界現在沒人在做總統,只有台灣,中華民國台灣。來,我們來看一大影片。這我一天,院長召開,還有江副院長。"},{"start":11737.397,"end":11764.472,"text":"來,我在講的是健保的總額預算制,他把它界定,比如說今年是500億,他就500億結束了,國安會發展了,他就整個病房議改,你議改做到5%、50%、600%的農林道的事,除下來,今天每年都要結算完畢,所以為什麼會0.9、0.8、0.6,全世界現在在做總額的,只有中華民國、台灣啦,其他沒有人在做總額的啦,德國做住院總額做一陣子也不敢做了,行政單位完全沒安排,國家沒有壓力,全部只要協商完畢,全部丟給醫界,醫界已經這樣,這麼多年來,大家動不掉。"},{"start":11767.108,"end":11771.091,"text":"總額打炮之後,很多醫院可能會因此得到很多的資源,但是國的指數會無可限制。"},{"start":11793.647,"end":11817.539,"text":"阿總額來地址你給人家點一口給人家補充給人家醫護另外的可以安定下來。阿如果超過的部分你打折幾戶。事實上超過的等一下會講到。阿這樣就是沒有總額了阿。唉沒有沒有沒有總額目標是。包括還要再打折那就是沒有總額。阿得得得。那就沒有上限了。上禮拜確診的新冠病毒多少人你知道嗎?十萬人。阿死多少人你知道嗎?我也不知道。齁。"},{"start":11822.993,"end":11842.753,"text":"此參選委員於9年4、5月說新冠結束了,然後所產生的會用全部塞到健保。施從梁署長很優秀,他的事又在作詞。結果,這樣落在9年的點子裡,辣啊,迷茫茫,所以未來可以稍微補。今年,一樣。"},{"start":11846.26,"end":11866.81,"text":"現在新冠還在燒,現在新的疫苗莫德納公還要2、3個禮拜才做得出來。一天就固定禮拜10萬人確診,都很無情,其實是都偷偷的。來,這就是我們邱部長、邱委員、邱律師長他做禮物的時候提出來,這張。他提出來臨時提案,他出來提案,臨時的人叫做臨時議員。"},{"start":11874.125,"end":11880.509,"text":"陳怡銘什麼意思我再找邱部長以前的臉書我都找出來了來又下一張16、17、18所以邱部長你很認真你說什麼說你去吃五碼麵像我五碼麵吃一百塊你吃這麼多都要給九十塊這樣什麼意思五碼麵的老闆全給你做出來"},{"start":11905.869,"end":11923.664,"text":"這就是重點在這裡他算上去說一年減四百五十五個喔你也把量發出來齁所以邱部長這是你講的你現在我跟人說要電子要報價你就說要一千一要七八百億我不曉得石崇良你怎麼算的啦那我看起來齁你看看這個就是"},{"start":11929.246,"end":11940.824,"text":"每一年的缺口嘛,缺口都四、五百億、四、五百億,但是已經十幾年,院長,這幾個幾十千年,所以議會都打打打,但是今天出這種事情,"},{"start":11941.853,"end":11969.83,"text":"這個跟委員報告邱部長無論是在部長任內或是在理事長任內尤其現在他對於過去幾年下來把一些這個一些費用算到健保總額裡面來應該移出到公務預算的這件工作他非常努力在計算在爭取我們也跟他很詳細的在進行當中最近邱部長跟石崇亮署長兩個都去做 剛才你說的做公務預算 稍稍回去公務預算是的"},{"start":11970.53,"end":11974.335,"text":"我們開過幾次的會都在同樣針對這個議題在做進一步的協商因為已經快到了要做決定的時候啊那請部長說明一下"},{"start":11985.848,"end":12010.267,"text":"好,謝謝,的確感謝以前施委員、蘇理事長的指導,我們共同傳承的一個希望讓醫療環境改善,所以在2018年的時候,你看那幾個都醫生嘛,共同提出一些配套的措施,會希望我們共同的目標來研議,那是政府要研議,要如何在三天內可以達到,"},{"start":12015.291,"end":12039.029,"text":"點子一點一塊的目標,我們來拍面。這是那個時候,也記得在拍面。當然現在我們說要在這裡,是不是把配套措施用得好一點,我們要怎麼來保障。所以我可以為衛福部拜託委員,這邊可以給衛福部一段時間,我把公務預算可以用出來、清出來。"},{"start":12040.75,"end":12062.739,"text":"醫療有沒有辦法救齁,在乎你卓院長一念之間,一念之詞。阿如果沒有,我們死的啦,我們死的齁。來,這一張,我們也是希望把上限,框一個上限,把它拿起來改成目標。"},{"start":12063.973,"end":12081.243,"text":"目標,我們沒有要匯總額,所以這個要稍稍研究,認真看一看。然後呢,醫療人員現在最大的問題就是七折八扣嘛。這個是很糟糕的事情。這個就是這幾年來累計的差額啦。"},{"start":12088.134,"end":12107.509,"text":"八、八千多億,這個是七千,裡面給付的是七千七百多億。每一年的差額,院長,都差不多四、五百了,四、五百了。但是這個空越來越大。現在要把議員挖下來,要怎麼補起來。就是,我們,總統說的說,看能不能三十六%的說,說到三十八%,這個我們補充一年就已經很了。國務委員會的帖子,國務委員會去處理。"},{"start":12125.143,"end":12144.154,"text":"我們當然很第一個尊重衛福部包括部長跟衛福所有的同仁他們專業上的計算判斷當然做決定的時候我們要考慮到國家整個財政的能力來做決定希望在維持財政穩定的情況底下能夠讓大家的平均的利益都能夠得到分享下一張"},{"start":12145.68,"end":12166.277,"text":"您的健保的滿意度89.7有很好的醫生、有很好的工業政策、有這麼高的就是臺灣可以幫助您招待日內瓦當、本屆都在說臺灣的健保除了臺灣的健保以外還沒什麼人說所以這是我們驕傲的事情但是你如果不想珍惜就被驕傲了我們醫護人員的滿意度才30%所以院長你要"},{"start":12176.193,"end":12184.838,"text":"認真的思考下一張這個更糟糕我們的平均壽命現去年已經調到79.84歲男女平均"},{"start":12191.716,"end":12212.556,"text":"日本是84歲,韓國是84歲。我們的平均壽命這是一個國家進步的指標。我們已經遠遠落後日本、韓國、香港、澳門、新加坡。這是很漏氣的事情。你的健康的投入如果再不增加,這個平均壽命還會再往下掉。我們最好就在109歲,81.32歲。"},{"start":12216.813,"end":12241.05,"text":"這不高捏,日本83、84、85啊捏。韓國也被人家管。韓國人2000控4年就嚇過爛了。啊他們的對健康的投入,對醫療保險的投入,他們是遠遠高過我們。所以,院長,我只要講一句,就要你支持。你行政院國會人不給你支持。因為外部做到很難過。所以這要讓你了解。"},{"start":12242.267,"end":12242.727,"text":"這就是我們亞東醫院"},{"start":12270.387,"end":12286.11,"text":"燃燒殆盡。兩位醫生、兩位護士、一枚看四十幾個病人、又打卡的、到院前死亡三、四個、又去商議做導管的。聽到是老百姓的。他卻說他要退場了,他不敢做了。兩中院院長,我們補典也叫他去安撫。"},{"start":12293.587,"end":12307.157,"text":"是這樣幹的,我今天都要講給你聽,因為我講給邱部長聽不好,他要對著和尚唸經,還不用再唸嘛。好,下一張。另外一個,現在我們碰到一個很重要的問題,院長,這個我今天第一次提出來。我們現在急重症的醫師都跑掉了,有的跑去診所,有的跑去堆,牙科醫師跑光光。"},{"start":12324.155,"end":12346.249,"text":"我服務的醫院八個牙科醫師,跑掉剩下兩個,六個都跑到診所去,為什麼?因為診所的稅很輕,他們是用百分之七十八當費用,百分之二十二當薪資所得稅,所以今受的醫生一等一叫的所得稅都五萬,不夠二十萬。"},{"start":12348.814,"end":12378.234,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":12378.41,"end":12378.43,"text":"再來"},{"start":12406.926,"end":12425.334,"text":"我們的支付喔,支付太久了,台價太小,台料太厲害,這是柬埔宿厲害的地方,所以柬埔宿台價,點滴只有一個水,就都沒夠,欸,一罐500CC的點滴我們可以合25點啦,這要給新加坡買一罐要57塊啦,一千CC的,"},{"start":12433.74,"end":12437.465,"text":"這個我特別要求衛部一定要保證貨源充足"},{"start":12471.32,"end":12483.543,"text":"好,謝謝蘇委員,謝謝左院長還有部長。這個醫療的部分是國安問題啦,也請特別注意。那,抱怨會現在在議場二樓的貴賓由我們"},{"start":12486.601,"end":12506.832,"text":"美國南部地區州議會的領袖訪問團,我們歡迎他們。另外,報告院會現在在議場二樓旁邊的還有我們新北市中和客家社團的朋友們,我們也歡迎你們。"},{"start":12511.317,"end":12519.569,"text":"好,發言會上午的質詢到此為止,下午1點50分處理臨時提案,下午2點30分繼續開會,進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":12810.845,"end":12817.705,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":19202.158,"end":19209.033,"text":"報告委員會現在繼續開會處理臨時提案每位委員發言一分鐘請李委員彥秀發言"},{"start":19221.167,"end":19235.38,"text":"議員委員李燕秀有鑒於人類乳突病毒HPV影響民眾健康甚至尤其在男性頻繁感染與傳染HPV機率更高於女性對於男性健康威脅非常嚴重而疫苗"},{"start":19236.101,"end":19256.834,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":19256.994,"end":19270.542,"text":"原建請為不顧修正現行HPV疫苗接種對象,不分性別,針對全國國中生提供公費接種HPV疫苗,是否有當建請公決案。謝謝本院委員李燕秀等17人提案,作如下決議,含請行政院嚴處,請問院會有無異議,無異議通過。報告院會"},{"start":19287.364,"end":19290.969,"text":"臨時提案均已處理完畢,下午2點30分繼續開會,進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":21486.715,"end":21490.657,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21604.141,"end":21627.192,"text":"報告院會我們現在繼續開會現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是歷屆華人公益獲獎的企業代表我們在這邊表達我們的歡迎謝謝報告院會我們繼續開會進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢請林國成委員質詢發詢時間15分鐘"},{"start":21651.343,"end":21663.951,"text":"好謝謝主席請卓院長還有我們勞動部我們何部長請卓院長還有勞動部部長備詢委員好好好院長部長我回想十幾年前一碗牛肉麵我對軸龍泰"},{"start":21681.923,"end":21694.656,"text":"秘書長印象深刻也就是本席在做立法委員主任的時候十幾年前你在當秘書長的時候一碗牛肉麵你付錢我永遠記住你的為人跟你所作所為"},{"start":21706.274,"end":21733.92,"text":"所以你沒有發現到每一次我在執行對你是彬彬有禮、尊敬有加嗎?但是...改天再去吃牛肉麵所以雖然一碗牛肉麵但是那是存有一點感情的存在但是我感覺到這很奇怪在我認識的卓榮泰院長在我的心目中裡面"},{"start":21736.998,"end":21737.378,"text":"我心裏面很難過。"},{"start":21749.847,"end":21767.444,"text":"其實我看得出來你從頭到現在你的團隊跟你本人都不是鬥雞耶其實你看立法委員在跟你對打的時候我們彼此之間都非常尊重的所以"},{"start":21768.953,"end":21785.098,"text":"院長,以身是華這四個字其實不要用啦因為以你的能力以立法委員對於你的尊敬程度以身是華這四個字不要用因為我認識的卓榮泰"},{"start":21788.066,"end":21799.021,"text":"他不是鬥雞型,你的團隊也不是鬥雞型。所以一定,咱說實在的啦,移工移私我是給你建議,沒有那麼恐怖啦。"},{"start":21800.155,"end":21821.205,"text":"報告委員,也有委員提醒我,以身試法,可以是考試的試,也可以用試用的試,都可以。我再次的強調,質詢就像一面鏡子。委員看到我就跟我看到我一樣,我們彼此尊重,國家就會進步。院長,我想我是好言相勸。沒有那麼恐怖啦。我們現在話回正題。"},{"start":21827.247,"end":21849.078,"text":"我當然要跟你談的就是勞工安心政府就放心大家都知道我們所有2300萬欸1100萬是勞工啊所以這勞工啊在我們社會基層上面確實是扮演非常重要的角色"},{"start":21849.969,"end":21869.957,"text":"所以當然我要跟你談的就是勞保那我也很感謝我們從以前陳院長到許明清部長到現在何部長第一個他勞工一利的東西也就是說我一直投保但是怕破產這一點"},{"start":21872.042,"end":21887.039,"text":"和部長一上臺跟卓院長一上臺就做先示第一個政府會負起己負之責任這勞工啊這勞工啊你知道嗎心裡面是踏實"},{"start":21888.26,"end":21905.111,"text":"安心多所以我的主題就很簡單勞工安心那政府就放心你在推行什麼他們在勞工的角色上面他們就會按部就班很認真去做所以我今天要跟你談的就是這個問題"},{"start":21906.723,"end":21926.599,"text":"當然一個部長是不可能去把這個事情完成但是一定要院長你要去力挺部長才有辦法去把它完成很簡單我要利用簡短的時間特別跟我們院長做一個說明跟報告"},{"start":21927.677,"end":21944.399,"text":"也就是勞工的破產勞工的基金會演變這樣是在整個省政府移交中央政府的時候第一沒清算第二虧損多少你們不知道"},{"start":21945.04,"end":21968.105,"text":"所以有些人啊就在講說啊這個怪民進黨我說沒有理由只要有執政的通通要怪為什麼84年現在我同意民進黨要概括承受但是一味的批評民進黨對勞保基金虧損的責任這是不公平的這個我們勞工啊就很簡單"},{"start":21969.245,"end":21997.145,"text":"對就對不就就不對所以我必須要跟院長報告一點也就是勞工所有的基金虧損跟勞工沒有關係第一是當初政府虧損有多少我現在問部長問院長你也不知道啦你也不知道所以到底那個洞有多深但是我必須要提醒卓院長"},{"start":21999.297,"end":22016.048,"text":"84年4月1日把醫療移到健保的時候我跟很大膽的跟院長報告勞工的基金這個部分是不虧錢的而是真正虧錢的是"},{"start":22017.113,"end":22038.056,"text":"前草前草以前的前草所以我為什麼要講全部怪你們沒有理由但是我們要把事情講得非常清楚不要來怪勞工說啊這個這個腳少領多啦啊現在要來騙腳多領少這是對勞工是不公平的"},{"start":22038.476,"end":22052.465,"text":"所以一定要 我說實在的啦 這我要代表1100萬的勞工跟你請病 跟把事實的真相 稟報給我們院長 讓院長去做決策的時候 不會做錯誤的決策"},{"start":22056.587,"end":22076.145,"text":"這點我拜託委員長你就要有一個時間去了解這個前因後果那另外一個我們也很感謝從2020到現在你們算負責任的也提撥了2000多億所以我看現在勞保基金現在的水位"},{"start":22077.492,"end":22092.671,"text":"是有照的說這代表什麼就代表你們是負起責任你們是負起責任因為勞工是無辜所有的虧損政府經營不善而延續下來的大動"},{"start":22093.852,"end":22112.081,"text":"完完全全要叫你們馬上解決這是有點不公平但是勞工總是要讓他有一個安心所以可以看得出來啊你主閣以後何部長上任以後勞工沒有吵沒有鬧他接著說左內閣何部長他們說娘有到錢"},{"start":22117.643,"end":22145.912,"text":"所以這代表什麼就代表勞工是安心的那這個我想你身為一個內閣當然你有這種義務去做但是我必須一定要有一點勞工要的不多勞工要的只是讓他安心勞工要的不是說你現在要比照公務人員等等的更好的福利最起碼的話他可以領得到錢"},{"start":22146.912,"end":22159.799,"text":"他安心我託保託了30年40年我最後我勞保的退休我領得到所以這一點我要建議我們院長還有我們部長"},{"start":22162.533,"end":22179.588,"text":"這個撥補在法令上是你的行政醜失但是本席在這裡要拜託要把己父入華也就是確定己父這個部分要把它入華我相信我不曉得卓院長"},{"start":22180.168,"end":22197.037,"text":"因為你已經擔保勞保不會倒政府要負起責任所以在這個部分69條跟66條本席都提修改入法的問題院長你針對這個你同不同意"},{"start":22198.361,"end":22224.228,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛對何部長有相當多的肯定這個是我們做事的目標但是也要得到人民共同的支持就算是同一政黨的執政也要延續蓋瓜承受過去就算不是政府的工作還是延續的前政府現在該有的努力我們要把它擬平過去的任何的缺口也是我們的責任這個絕不推卸責任"},{"start":22224.892,"end":22250.404,"text":"那至於對勞工的問題對勞保的這個政府負最後責任這個絕對不會改變那麼過去幾次我們也曾經在支付責任跟撥補入法當中我們有一些討論那現在這些立法要不要把它入法裡面的這個過程立場我們還是一致那希望取得社會更多的共識那勞動部一起再跟大家尋求這樣的共識"},{"start":22251.344,"end":22274.263,"text":"謝謝院長我要代替勞工跟你謝謝勞工要的是一個確保勞工要的是一個確保那也謝謝卓院長勇於對於這件事情的認同但是我們本會也已經提這個案的修法其實這個案非常單純一個撥補正常化也就是院長認為應該要撥補就撥補"},{"start":22276.405,"end":22303.997,"text":"那另外一個就確定起伏讓勞工很放心所以這點首先我還是要謝謝我們我們院長在這個部分你可以對以前國的勞工勇敢的承認這個政府要負全部責任所以這點我要特別謝謝我們卓院長是應該做的好那個何部長可以請回來那個邱部長請邱部長"},{"start":22316.718,"end":22340.397,"text":"好來邱部長我時間比較少但是我必須就是要讓你看一下新冠疫情這個部分我要請教一下因為你是醫生我也知道你對於整個醫療是非常認真這個無庸置疑我也不要再跟你討價還價這是你是行家"},{"start":22342.418,"end":22361.603,"text":"政府準備好了沒有?新冠疫情再起準備好了沒有?跟委員報告一下應該準備相當周全不管是從我們一個疫病的一個歧視的模式來看我們7月中會到達高峰但是應該就會下來那這是第一個第二個我們"},{"start":22362.843,"end":22386.914,"text":"剛剛委員上面有寫得很清楚我們從持續疫情的監測強化這個物品的儲備調度以及我們一直在更新我們應該有的感染控制指引還有加強民眾的衛教還有跟促進醫療院所的合作大概都一直在做那最重要就是藥物有沒有準備的期錢那我們盤點到7月6日瑞德西韋還有8萬多劑"},{"start":22389.54,"end":22410.572,"text":"拜臘委有18萬劑基層比較擔心的那個醫療沒有問題來部長我這裡提醒你一下因為你對於這些是行家我相信卓院長也會力挺你們但是老百姓的生命是非常重要這次的疫情"},{"start":22411.372,"end":22428.548,"text":"死亡率有一點偏高所以這個部分部長可能要代替院長要特別去注意這些那另外一個這個政府如果有作為現在很簡單到底各醫院口罩要不要戴"},{"start":22429.609,"end":22447.777,"text":"現在臺大醫院是規定人家要帶喔但是其他醫院不一定帶喔所以這個建議部長要不要統一小小的動作可能就會給老百姓有一個遵行的方向所以這個要拜託部長"},{"start":22449.418,"end":22468.938,"text":"我相信卓院長不可能管得這麼細但是因為你是衛福部這個部分要不要統一這很重要到底交通那個高鐵還要不要戴口罩這個你們要做專家的一個評估這個我們都會依照專家的指引那各醫院醫療院所更小心這是好事情"},{"start":22469.478,"end":22484.132,"text":"另外一個就是包括你剛才所講的口罩啦快篩啦這等等其實有備無犯這是非常重要的因為我們講快一點從SARS到我們新冠我們都有經驗"},{"start":22485.453,"end":22506.724,"text":"那預防勝過於治療那部長又是內行所以我相信只要像民意代表跟你提出這些提請跟建議我相信你們都做得到了這也本來也應該要替老百姓去做的所以在這裡還有一點我要提醒院長可能也要注意一下"},{"start":22508.274,"end":22531.534,"text":"因為小孩子打的預防針是比較小是比較偏低的那這個部分有沒有可能針對這些要去做預防動作所以一定我這樣是在建議你在做整個統籌的時候你這些因為我們提出這些是一個事實所以拜託院長"},{"start":22532.395,"end":22560.485,"text":"因為雖然你這個國是緩慢但最起碼這個你還是要去注意一下人民健康是永遠是擺第一的這個謝謝委員的提醒所以一定我坦白跟你講啦剛才就是我講過的一碗牛肉麵的故事讓我心裡面藏著卓榮泰永遠讓我感覺到是彬彬有禮做事認真然後廣結上演之人委員這是有情有義所以"},{"start":22561.005,"end":22575.813,"text":"我唯有拜託院長就是針對問題拜託你一定勞工要支持第二個衛福部這裡要支持這樣好不好謝謝委員指教一定好謝謝部長好謝謝院長好謝謝林委員好謝謝卓院長下一位我們請李昆哲委員質詢"},{"start":22604.055,"end":22610.439,"text":"好,謝謝主席。請一下卓院長還有勞動部何部長。好,請卓院長何部長備詢。好,院長好、部長好。臺灣的勞工對臺灣的發電拍下最重要的基礎,付出最多。所以我們對於勞工的權利的保障是政府最重要的一個基本責任。"},{"start":22633.663,"end":22662.772,"text":"大家都談到勞保那我記得在馬英九擔任總統陳沖擔任行政院長的時候我是第一個針對相關的財務精算報告提出質詢而且有兩項重要的建議就是要讓勞工安心讓勞工在老年之後對於他們的生活有勞保的這樣的一個基本的保障所以當初要求第一個政府撥補"},{"start":22663.939,"end":22678.692,"text":"第二是政府的國家最終支付責任經過多年的努力謝謝蘇貞昌院長在2020年我們踏出了重要的第一步就是撥補了200億2021年撥補220億2022年300億2023年450億再加300億的特別預算"},{"start":22690.984,"end":22706.673,"text":"到今年已經撥補到了1200億我首先要請教院長我們針對政府的撥補明年我們編的預算是不是還會再增加會維持到1200億以上嗎來請部長說明"},{"start":22709.747,"end":22710.187,"text":"會不會維持1200億以上?會不會增加?"},{"start":22733.956,"end":22757.503,"text":"目前還是至少維持跟過去一樣的水準是有的。好,謝謝院長的承諾。第二我們對於最終支付責任或是政府撥補當然已經連續5年的撥補那勞工對於政府的相關的作為認為對於勞保的撥補以及國家最終支付責任是有實質的做到。"},{"start":22758.547,"end":22783.318,"text":"但是我們的論壇也說我們對於勞保的政府撥補以及國家最終支付責任是要明文入法所以相關的勞保條例第69條必須要明文的加入相關的政府撥補以及國家最終支付責任我們看國民年金法的第49條以及公務人員退休撫恤管理條例第8條"},{"start":22784.578,"end":22810.248,"text":"對於他們相關的政府撥補或者是國家最終支付責任都有明文入法這個是我們接下來要推動的這是第二階段明文入法第三階段最重要的就是我們針對老保年金的改革必須更進一步的來推出長期的一個規劃過去對於老保年金的改革"},{"start":22811.829,"end":22824.128,"text":"討論不出一個版本或者是勞工無法接受主要有三大原因第一,過去政府沒有撥補第二,國家沒有最終支付的責任"},{"start":22825.131,"end":22844.358,"text":"第三、過去所討論出來的版本可能都是要多繳少領而且要晚點領這種勞工是無法接受的所以說我在這邊要提醒何部長我們第一步實質的政府撥補跟國家最終支付責任做到了"},{"start":22845.011,"end":22870.797,"text":"第二部就是相關的我們的明文入法勞保條例要將政府撥補跟國家最終支付責任明文入法第三就是要針對我們相關的勞保的改革必須做長期的跟長官學來進行更進一步的討論提出共識的版本這是很重要的工作"},{"start":22871.736,"end":22876.198,"text":"另外,我們針對相關的職災的部分,我們2023年職災加上我們的職業病,就是職場染疫加起來總共有9萬多件,這很嚴重。職業災害佔了4萬7千件。"},{"start":22896.365,"end":22921.256,"text":"然後職業病跟職場染疫現在也納入這個職業災害裡面所以他也有4萬3千件加起來就9萬件那我們2022年多少件?7萬件2023年比2022年增加了2萬件那我們2023年我們來看因為職業災害失能的我們的勞工朋友啊是達到1382人"},{"start":22924.255,"end":22946.927,"text":"死亡的人數不幸死亡的人數達到625人部長我要提醒你這625人單純的職業災害扣除職業病以及職場燃益的就有599人如果我再提醒部長我們針對2023跟2022再來做一個比較2023比2022"},{"start":22953.001,"end":22981.1,"text":"我們的職業傷害多出了1351人死亡的人數增加了83人要有效的降低職災保護我們的勞工啊來保證你有什麼具體的作為我們的職業傷害的職業災害的受傷的人數增加以及職業災害死亡的人數增加這對勞工權益的保障是一個嚴重的警訊來請說明"},{"start":22983.295,"end":22999.129,"text":"謝謝委員,剛剛您提到的那個職災幾戶建樹會增加,那個是基本上是有COVID-19的因素啦,是因為所以我說加上職業病跟職場染疫對,可是我要跟您報告,現在因應這一個確實我們職災發生率並沒有有效的降低,這是一個嚴重的問題"},{"start":23004.474,"end":23021.541,"text":"那麼我們也針對這個我們要準備修正職業安全衛生法。這是為什麼呢?因為第一個在我們的這一個已經看到的公安意外裡面很多數的業主跟施作比如說我們這個施工廠之間他是沒有負連帶責任的。"},{"start":23022.861,"end":23024.122,"text":"部長,重點在於如何有效的降低職債。我們一年"},{"start":23046.894,"end":23069.467,"text":"有1382位勞工失能這很嚴重的我們有625人勞工失去生命這很嚴重的每一位勞工都是我們的家人一般他們為台灣的經濟發展付出最大的心力勞工的權益必須要具體的保障那我們看看相關的勞工職業災害有50%都營造業"},{"start":23074.215,"end":23086.311,"text":"對,沒錯然後有43%左右都是墜落那都是非常嚴重的那勞動部委員提出說銀兆業墜落打幾年"},{"start":23087.165,"end":23089.427,"text":"具體的做法呢?會不會提高相關的公安裁罰的金額?"},{"start":23109.125,"end":23112.407,"text":"我剛剛提到職業安全衛生法也會提高相關的裁罰金額,現在只有3萬到30萬,而且裁罰金額都沒有公佈,這是要檢討的。那麼我們準備要把它大幅提高,因為這個部分也不能讓業主心存僥倖。"},{"start":23128.297,"end":23151.208,"text":"那麼尤其我們在這個營造業的這個趕工的過程裡面,常常大家輕忽了工地安全本身的這樣子的一個連帶的責任的問題,這是部分我們必須確實檢討。那麼違反了大部分都是職業安全衛生法的第6條,那更應該具體的提出一些督促管理的這樣的作為。"},{"start":23154.192,"end":23165.645,"text":"一直要請教何部長,你剛就任。我們對於要降低職業災害到底有什麼具體的做法?你有什麼目標?那修法之前你有什麼具體的措施嗎?相關的行政作為嗎?"},{"start":23173.68,"end":23195.786,"text":"今年我們其實就是把這個勞檢的這個場次都提高包括對這個各種工地包括營造業的包括各種製造業的他們有在施工的其實這個場次都有提高我們也提到勞檢部長你也提到勞檢我們一年勞檢的場次大概是28萬的場次如果以初檢來說就有11萬場次"},{"start":23197.947,"end":23221.853,"text":"那十一萬場次的初檢它的違規是達到十二萬次以上所以去初檢大概都有問題都幾乎百分之百以上那當然我們在相關的復檢這些違規的這些場次裡面勞動部所提供的資料號稱它的改善率達到百分之九十二"},{"start":23224.81,"end":23239.262,"text":"我想這個確實該檢討,因為如果跟對照我們委員所感受到的或我們大家所感受到的,確實這個不盡符合事實。那麼因為我剛上任,我也要求我們治安署對這個問題要進行全面的檢討,因為包含初檢跟復檢之間,它會有一個時間差嘛。"},{"start":23247.489,"end":23274.725,"text":"那麼初檢跟復檢之間還有包括我們對停工範圍的定義其實那個有很多檢討的空間這個部分我倒是要肯定一下勞動部我們對於勞檢的場次這樣的增加是更能夠具體的來保障勞工的職場的安全但是相關的這一些對於業者的督促以及相關的改善必須更進一步的來作為提升來說明一下"},{"start":23275.555,"end":23296.291,"text":"是,就是另一方面這個除了我們這個增加勞檢修職業安全衛生委員就是說這個勞檢要確實化跟修職業安全衛生法也很有關係因為我們目前職業安全衛生法某些規範並沒有那麼的明確化所以導致這個我們在勞檢進行裁罰的時候其實也不夠具體"},{"start":23297.632,"end":23318.958,"text":"這個是有互相連帶關係,所以希望我們能在最快的時間內提出質量位的修法,也能夠獲得委員的支持。這個必須要更具體的作為。部長我都簽稿了,熱危害的議題。院長、部長,這幾天都火熄滅了,我們好像住在人生裡面。這就是因為極端氣候的這樣的一個肆虐跟趨勢。"},{"start":23320.182,"end":23337.356,"text":"那勞工朋友在這麼炎熱的天氣工作,相關的熱危害以及對身體所造成的衝擊啊,他的傷害性非常的大。在6月26號,郵局的勞工啊,郵差,辛苦的郵差啊,就一位眾署分導。"},{"start":23338.183,"end":23354.105,"text":"在送信的過程裡面。那我們對熱危害部長你有什麼具體的想法?來部長請說明。對跟委員報告這熱危害確實也是當前大家都在注意的一個大問題。我們現在也進行夏季高溫勞檢。"},{"start":23355.467,"end":23373.335,"text":"也是一樣有勞檢,可是呢,這個一樣就是說這個在食安委的這個法的規定裡面也是不夠明確,所以我們必須要把它進行法規的修正,這部分是行政命令,就是說業主他必須要提供避難,就是這一個防高溫的設備跟設施給勞工。"},{"start":23375.916,"end":23380.278,"text":"目前這個部分沒有明確化的規定,所以導致我們...接下來要做明確化的規定嗎?"},{"start":23380.278,"end":23405.031,"text":"來說明一下。對對對,我們8月底要來做這個相關法規的明確赤眼入法。我們現在只有要求他進行避難的這個規定,避難這樣子的一個規定,可是沒有要求他提供設備設施。所以會變成你在勞檢的時候,你又沒有辦法很明確的去罰他。所以這個會是一個,又是一個執行上的問題。"},{"start":23405.851,"end":23423.963,"text":"雖然我們下季勞工勞檢好幾萬場次可是罰的都很少所以這是會變成一個無效率的一個狀態這樣子所以我很很快的這個月就要進行這個法規的修正我們之前有通過勞工的職業災害保險以及保護法那針對勞工的職場的安全以及相關發生職業災害之後"},{"start":23430.027,"end":23434.728,"text":"一至四月相關的職業災害預防的補助申請一至四月只有20件而且職業災害的重建一至四月只有7件"},{"start":23457.936,"end":23478.476,"text":"那這個部分必須要更加強的來做相關的處理,來說明一下。好,謝謝委員。那個職災預防重建中心是一個職災保護法之後新成立的單位。它運作大概現在三年左右,從兩三年左右而已。那麼它事實上也在摸索中。"},{"start":23479.336,"end":23506.48,"text":"然後呢因為他是一個前端跟後端前端預防跟後端重建那在臺灣的這樣子的一個職業安全衛生的這個這個醫學的這個環境裡面他現在的這一個目前運作的狀況因為他是針對一般民間的所以他還要去找這個個案然後去對他進行一些示範的輔導他現在都還在嘗試這些建立這些model的工作而已"},{"start":23506.96,"end":23507.24,"text":"好,謝謝李委員"},{"start":23533.837,"end":23556.525,"text":"下一位我們請羅廷偉委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。有請卓院長以及邱部長。卓院長、邱部長請備詢。院長你要喝個水嗎?"},{"start":23562.52,"end":23562.621,"text":"委員長好"},{"start":23573.841,"end":23602.627,"text":"謝謝委員好 院長解放軍戰機最近四面環台的天數跟次數是越來越高我們六月還為了解放軍海軍曾經擔任過廷長的男子駕駛小艇駛入到淡水河口政府也承認反應過慢為時已晚院長兩岸關係是越演越烈越來越緊張今天我想我們積極的要備戰我們也努力的必戰我想這是政府應該有的態度"},{"start":23603.067,"end":23620.575,"text":"我們一向認為備戰才能避戰,能戰才能止戰。是的,所以我覺得積極的備戰也是我們很重要的一個方針。今天我有一個狀況,我想我們一起來探討備戰相關的事後的一個檢討。今天假設蘇澳港、高雄港、淡水港突然被解放軍炸彈襲擊。"},{"start":23622.096,"end":23640.389,"text":"那造成的蘇澳呢300人受傷那高雄1000人受傷淡水500人受傷我想請問一下院長這些傷者我們在傷後的一個後送機制包括如何後送救治到哪幾間醫院如何救治以及後送的各間醫院"},{"start":23641.329,"end":23642.631,"text":"我們這些機制有沒有去建立?"},{"start":23656.717,"end":23678.655,"text":"謝謝委員 這個完全是一個假設性的問題但是坐在政府的立場我們就是告訴人民說政府是有準備的而且不只是政府民間有很多的相關的團體他們也在做這種大規模傷害之後包括天災地變之後的一些救助的工作那這個都平常在整備過程當中都有一些操演跟一些預備"},{"start":23679.295,"end":23704.985,"text":"好 謝謝我想我們在探討這個問題雖然只是假設但是我們希望目的是引導我們的政府能夠去重視我們如果災後發生以後我們大量的傷患該如何救治的一個問題但是我想問部長部長您是醫師您也是全聯會的兩屆的一個全聯會理事長也是立法委員我想經驗豐富我想請問你幾個問題生理食鹽水如果在沒有的情況之下我們可以開刀嗎?"},{"start":23706.141,"end":23726.355,"text":"沒有生理食鹽水沒辦法開刀沒辦法開刀啦齁那生理食鹽水最重要的兩個作用我想補充電解質以及最重要就是沖洗傷口對吧是但是呢現在坊間吶我們生理食鹽水跟以往的缺藥我個人認為不太一樣喔最大的情況不同是他是開刀手術必備的一個藥品而且是"},{"start":23726.995,"end":23727.455,"text":"部長,您覺得進得來嗎?"},{"start":23751.926,"end":23763.317,"text":"我想我們這個都有預防所以這次的專案進口是因為臨時擁轟因為他佔的比例太多所以我們除了在專案進口以外我們已經輔導鼓勵國內的廠商我們給他比較合理的價碼"},{"start":23769.578,"end":23796.034,"text":"來自己產相關的生理食品水這個是我們事後再檢討啦齁但是我要講的是如果發生戰爭我想沒辦法進口啦齁那我們先來探討幾個問題齁為什麼不將專案進口的價格82元同樣擠附國內生產來製造我們有所謂的疫情國家隊嘛藥品、快篩以及之前還有新型冠狀病毒的感染用藥我們的牆綠、葵寧都有所謂的國家隊那為什麼現在不行"},{"start":23797.824,"end":23798.104,"text":"部長我還是要講齁"},{"start":23818.027,"end":23826.899,"text":"我們不希望每次都用專案進口,我們應該培植自己的相關的廠商,未來能夠...我想只要有合理的合理的價錢應該廠商就會做啦。我們一起來讓我們的國內廠商有這個能力。我們希望協調國內合格的廠商,能夠增加他的供貨量。"},{"start":23835.45,"end":23835.61,"text":"當然啦。當然啦。"},{"start":23851.508,"end":23875.709,"text":"我想以往蔡英文總統所說的一個態度很明顯對於戰備對於我們必須的這種急用藥品我們國內應該要有自己生產的一個能力那為什麼現在量會不夠本席不是危言聳聽我不是要去讓整個社會恐慌我是要提醒這個藥它不是眾多藥品缺少的其中一小環它是戰備用藥它所戰備的存在價值戰爭時我們認為是沒辦法進口的"},{"start":23878.792,"end":23902.922,"text":"而且千萬不要看它這樣子啊我國內本身就有許多藥廠在製造為什麼平時不去輔導健保價給付的比一瓶可樂還便宜啊對它的原物料很便宜鹽和水而已但是整個製作的過程是非常嚴謹的是無菌的狀況而且它是塑料包裝所以還要去人工檢查異物這樣子嚴謹的一個過程當中我想竟然比不上一瓶可樂的價格"},{"start":23904.102,"end":23926.197,"text":"我想針對這樣的事情我們應該請院長做以下的交代以及做檢討您聽聽看所有戰備儲備的一個藥品品項中是否有類似像永豐這樣子寡占市場的一個狀況我們應該去盤點我們應該需要有所對應的因應政策到底是不是像邱部長剛剛所說的是短期之內發生的嗎"},{"start":23927.518,"end":23945.509,"text":"這明明就是6個月前我們去稽查瞭解他沒有符合規定才強制官場沒有符合GMP嗎?第二個我國原料藥所用的大部分都來自進口其中4成來自大陸戰備藥品他不是自製捏"},{"start":23946.61,"end":23963.405,"text":"原本而是其原料在臺灣儲備是否充足我們有沒有盤點?部長有盤點嗎?戰爭時這些進口東西是進不來的那即使我們有工廠也無可奈何啊所以以上兩點院長您可不可以跟我回應我們是不是盤點一下能不能在兩個月內一個月內給我一個回應"},{"start":23965.216,"end":23984.001,"text":"好的,包括這次永豐這家廠商占據這麼大的量,但在製程過程中發生了問題,造成整個供需的失調,這個很活生生的經驗,那衛福部,我想部長也清楚,520之後我們上來,我第一次請衛福部來跟我做報告的就是這個事情。"},{"start":23984.321,"end":24008.915,"text":"所以我一路的緊追。你們有資料嗎?後續提供給我可以嗎?好的。接下來我要跟院長談論此次進口有三大嚴重的一個缺失。三無。無法源依據。沒有PMF的核備函。還有出狀況無理賠。這狀況你們有掌握嗎?院長台灣是民主國家齁。我們所有行政單位依法行政請問書意專案進口我們的依法法源依據是什麼?可以跟我分享一下嗎?請說。"},{"start":24012.097,"end":24033.867,"text":"緊急的專案進口我們從5月底就開始啟動了。所以又是用緊急專案?應該這個緊急專案如果需要,這個應該是依法的沒有問題。依法沒有問題?你引用的是哪一個法?要事法?第幾條?可以跟我分享嗎?就本席所了解,無法源依據。"},{"start":24035.577,"end":24059.01,"text":"請問院長如果公布無法源依據的行政命令可以成立嗎?我認為衛福部有帶頭違法的可能性所以現在是只要衛福部官員認定我緊急需要我就馬上釋法為無誤嗎?沒有法源依據所有藥品許可證藥品輸入那麼這些藥品有可能就是禁藥這是藥事法第二條第二項規定的請問院長如果是禁藥要怎麼處理?"},{"start":24059.65,"end":24069.815,"text":"待會我們越談越深你聽聽看如果為依法行政所有合張的政府官員我們是不是應該主動送檢調是不是監察院應該要看看有沒有所圖利的問題還是需要本席來協助呢?我們目前沒有PMF的核備函"},{"start":24088.965,"end":24091.066,"text":"本席就想用法規面請教院長我們看一下問題"},{"start":24110.936,"end":24122.261,"text":"PTT第4個回文說核准專案輸入的大包生理食鹽水皆屬國際組織的會員國。院長越南哪時候是PASS的那個會員國?是會員國嗎?部長進口的時候我們是不是有經過這個相似的檢驗?越南這個是大總的那應該是大總的所以你的回函告訴我全部都會員國啊越南明明就不是會員國"},{"start":24141.257,"end":24165.79,"text":"他是EU GMP捏那你怎麼回函這樣回我第二根據國外藥廠的工廠資料準備須知啊不是會員國的藥廠一律採國外實地茶廠有沒有去茶廠部長我認為沒有短期之內你要進口你沒茶廠嘛再來根據藥食法第57條你沒有核被函有沒有核被函哇鴨雀無聲啊"},{"start":24170.731,"end":24195.351,"text":"院長、部長我都有所知啊沒有給我任何的資料我可以大膽的篤定你沒有河北海你沒有許可證院長不要忘記連日本日本吉東製藥的證錄完新聞報導做假騙日本政府30年由出口國家自行認定外服部連做個樣子要求廠商送個資料都沒有你就敢相信"},{"start":24196.79,"end":24210.243,"text":"蘇益出狀況藥害基金沒有賠因為你沒有許可證阿我今天使用這一批蘇朱益萬一我出了問題這是要無菌的狀況下這個是要給手術的人使用"},{"start":24213.558,"end":24228.938,"text":"委員長,我想我們那個蘇耀史等還有我們的負責的同仁一定非常嚴謹的在合法...但是要他已經告訴我沒有許可證是不理賠的喔,這就是問題所在。我們在整個了解以後再跟委員做一個說明。"},{"start":24230.039,"end":24257.637,"text":"問題越來越嚴重今天傷口或者是要做手術使用這些有可能都會有整個裡面包括輸注液裡面如果有熱源它會顯示讓整個在受感染的一個危險性很高所以今天如果塗針的不必要的傷害院長我們該怎麼去應對後續要怎麼救濟既然論述是對的食藥署怎麼可以准沒有許可證沒有茶場沒有PMF的核准核備含就可以進口"},{"start":24259.261,"end":24261.783,"text":"報告委員 這個不管是專案的進口或是製造專案的進口或是製藥製藥我們在醫藥事法上面都有一些特別的這個措施的規定"},{"start":24282.92,"end":24297.097,"text":"本件我說從5月底到6月12號這個將近半個多月的時間當中我們一直在吹包括衛生部包括食藥署來的報告就是一個是配合進口的傳奇一個就是配合尋找合格的廠商能夠提供這些資料"},{"start":24297.577,"end":24317.592,"text":"那這個過程當中我請衛務再詳細的了解當初用什麼樣的方式跟程序去尋找這些貨源。部長我想這件事不用開玩笑。三、五啊。今天我所舉出來的東西三、五啊。沒有法源預計這真的是非常非常的重要。沒有許可函、何貝函什麼都沒有。我想這個問題齁後續我們再繼續來檢討。我希望"},{"start":24321.075,"end":24346.184,"text":"院長我所提出的一個問題今天我們不是垂毛求師我們在幫政府想後續會遇到的因應問題你可以認同嗎?了解謝謝委員那接下來我想請問下一個問題我們要求癌症篩檢一直以來十大死因癌症是十大死因之首癌症已經纏連十大死因41年我想每一個人都有可能罹癌"},{"start":24347.432,"end":24347.612,"text":"部長,報告委員﹖"},{"start":24376.752,"end":24400.551,"text":"我想這個先生你關心肺癌。肺癌的確在我們的一個目前的規範之下的確找出了相當有意義的一些陽性。我想這個也是拯救了那個這個人的生命以及他的家庭。沒關係部長你可不可以直接回答我。我們現在要請專家再研究看怎麼樣來擴大。肺癌能夠年齡下降篩檢的一個條件。"},{"start":24402.652,"end":24426.027,"text":"再來就是所謂的男性50歲以下女性45歲以下符合家族史抽菸史每兩年一次LDCT的檢查我想這個部分是我們的訴求包括乳癌也是我們都希望能夠年齡層下降再來我要跟大家談我們談的肺癌跟乳癌五個癌症以外另外三個癌子宮頸癌大腸癌口腔癌篩檢年齡下降請問目前規劃如何什麼時候辦理"},{"start":24428.274,"end":24431.175,"text":"公費癌症篩檢新增胃癌是否如期10月上路?胃癌?對公費癌症篩檢胃癌"},{"start":24459.073,"end":24461.254,"text":"我們一起來加油,所以你可以認同我的說法,是嗎?"},{"start":24489.934,"end":24508.91,"text":"好,謝謝羅委員陳培宇及林月琴委員之質詢均以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報下一位請游浩委員質詢"},{"start":24533.433,"end":24542.157,"text":"謝謝大會主席、副院長。那有請行政院長還有衛福部長。卓院長還有衛福部邱部長備詢。委員好。院長好。就接著延續著我們剛才羅廷偉委員所提到的"},{"start":24556.755,"end":24575.274,"text":"那在衛福部公布了十大死因癌症居死因之冠那佔死亡人數的四分之一那癌症治療的問題即待解決尤其像賴清德總統他有提到那這個健康台灣的願景那希望2030年減少因癌症死亡人數的三分之一"},{"start":24575.994,"end":24602.868,"text":"但是這理想很豐滿現實很骨感那來看一下除了剛才我們羅廷偉委員所提到的我們來檢視一下癌症的相關的預算那目前為了要降低那國健署他擬定了最新癌症防治計畫但是癌症篩檢的經費是明顯不足菸捐的收益早已不服使用那所以在衛福部這一次今年也首度向行政院爭取明年度的公務預算"},{"start":24603.388,"end":24606.23,"text":"我想我們要達到2030年來把癌症死亡率降低三分之一當然要整體就是委員所說的"},{"start":24631.562,"end":24653.817,"text":"篩檢是一個重要的而篩檢更應該包括到都會區跟偏鄉尤其偏鄉的老人篩檢率特別的低所以我想有時候是我們有計畫但是怎麼樣把它落實那我們現在當然是為了為了讓它爭取的篩檢更有效果現在在擬定一個整體性的一個癌症篩檢的一個計畫那從幾個常見的一個癌症的篩檢我們會把它的年齡"},{"start":24659.011,"end":24659.031,"text":"委員﹚"},{"start":24674.761,"end":24692.604,"text":"那這個民進黨執政第9年了癌有等待癌症新藥基金已經818天那從癌篩的缺口都已經31億的情況之下癌症的新藥基金就要100億那錢從哪裡來?要從衛福部的公務預算編列嗎?還是有其他的預算可以支援?"},{"start":24694.621,"end":24715.973,"text":"這個癌症百億基金我們因為依照需求當然今年我們是用健保的一個暫時支付的一個制度來給付看起來對病人是有幫助但是還沒有正式得到那個肯定的那個部分那明年就會我們擴展到60億這個就是政府的公務預算那第三年我們希望達到100億"},{"start":24717.082,"end":24743.217,"text":"所以說這個部長您所提的我的稿子就已經寫了不管是24.9億、60億到第三年的100億那在公務預算的話他沒有辦法這樣子隨意喊價那這個財政紀律的部分有當初就遵守相關的一個規範嘛難道財政紀律法那就明定成立基金需要國庫撥補以外的財源所以說癌症的基金他這不可能100億都只有有公務預算支出"},{"start":24743.797,"end":24770.134,"text":"那在目前未來的相關的籌措的財源還有哪些的作為?癌症防治基金?那癌症防治基金我們現在當然是在演繹怎麼樣設這個基金是最符合我們能夠讓癌症病人來使用。包括他是不是將來有可能也可以有社會各界企業也來幫忙。"},{"start":24774.168,"end":24786.185,"text":"整個盤增大那也許我們可以照顧更多的那個病人那在公務基金的話我想我們至少在3年內到一定有公務預算到百億這樣子"},{"start":24787.386,"end":24806.135,"text":"那本席就直接就教,在這個相關的糖捐、煙捐、酒捐都是健保所規定的財務來源。那煙捐已經開徵了,不屬於新的財務來源。那請教部長,衛福部未來會不會將所謂的糖捐、酒捐進行開徵,移入在癌症基金上?"},{"start":24810.475,"end":24814.319,"text":"還是院長要直接回答喔?部長我想院長應該想要說明一下癌症新藥的"},{"start":24829.995,"end":24851.727,"text":"讓許多癌友能夠得到一些照顧這個是國家的政策那我們一定是在財政紀律法的規範底下去尋找如何來充實這個基金那目前因為還在這個夏天度總預算的編列過程當中我們也嘗試看哪一個財源是適合的但是委員剛剛所提到那幾項還沒有的應該"},{"start":24854.589,"end":24869.934,"text":"所以說﹐糖捐、煙捐、酒捐目前是排除在外。目前其他的兩項並沒有把它納入來積極的考慮。我們希望找更多適當的裁員或是接受民間的合作跟捐助。"},{"start":24870.994,"end":24897.742,"text":"那在這裡跟院長跟部長特別的強調一下因為在不然是糖捐還是酒捐啦尤其是酒捐的話包括這個料理米酒料酒等等都是重要的民生常使用的物品那這個只要一列入的時候他知識體大他牽扯的非常深甚至會帶動整個物價又變得又一波的上漲所以說這個部分院長剛才也直接回應了不會以這個"},{"start":24898.502,"end":24898.522,"text":"委員長"},{"start":24918.59,"end":24947.562,"text":"那最近我們都常常看到許多的報導都提到這個加熱菸那加熱菸在菸案防治法他已經修正通過之後那為什麼就是這個加熱菸如果合法販售的話也可以進行合法課這個菸捐菸稅那為什麼目前來講這衛福部那還是沒有辦法把這個加熱菸的這個部分還能夠盡速讓他合法來管制那放著這龐大的稅收還不讓他課稅"},{"start":24950.116,"end":24977.256,"text":"報告委員我想我們衛福部尤其是國民健康署的專家小組是非常積極大概每個禮拜都在開風險評估會議但目前大概有12家有意願來申請那大概有4家有進行到某一個程度可是再來要補件的時候他們都沒有補過來所以有時候沒辦法審下去"},{"start":24978.373,"end":25003.462,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們都很清楚的可以把整個現在所有進度呈現給大家看那我是想說應該是要呈現就要呈現因為要讓社會各界知道其實像這種新興菸品本來就應該列入這個法的管制啦那這樣子的話對於民眾來講應該做整體的環境應該是更為健全啦尤其是在歐美許多的國家其實在這些新興菸品"},{"start":25004.422,"end":25021.016,"text":"對我在管制在內同樣的在剛才提到這個基金的部分還或是癌症相關的經費的來源那把這個加熱菸還能夠把它進行這個未來課稅的一個重點或是菸捐的重點我相信對於國民健康來講"},{"start":25021.596,"end":25038.268,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":25039.944,"end":25063.125,"text":"加熱鹽現在目前來講都是這個水貨商都賺走嘛那這個部分等同於都是我們國民的稅收那這樣子加熱鹽卡在健康風險評估的審查那在他們的補件他們需要請他們加快補件以及在這個程序上要如何才能夠去做加強才能夠讓這樣子的一個法制的管理上是能夠讓他確實可行"},{"start":25064.66,"end":25088.469,"text":"是的,我們一切一定按照依法辦理尤其在審查的過程當中其實這是國家大事所以也是大家都可以注意的我想它的過程絕對是透明、公開、而且公平給大家可以來評斷的,這個請放心至於其他水源那個部分可能就是要依法辦理這樣子"},{"start":25089.059,"end":25105.277,"text":"沒錯那本期還是在跟院長跟部長還特別也希望說在這個國民健康是非常的重要也是癌症的這個部分他的經費來源同樣重要那在包括目前來講是剛才也院長也承諾了"},{"start":25105.657,"end":25130.179,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":25130.299,"end":25130.319,"text":"謝謝委員長"},{"start":25145.68,"end":25171.778,"text":"那延續著剛才癌症新藥以外那另外一個用藥問題也為全國男性同胞請命在這個所謂的公費的HPV疫苗接種的決策2018年12月推動國中女生公費HPV疫苗接種非常棒的決策那這個部分也確實HPV的病毒是導致女性子宮頸癌的元兇還包括是男性口炎癌的隱藏殺手那相關的數據我這邊就不再強調"},{"start":25172.739,"end":25197.961,"text":"那我想直接就教於院長或部長那如何在什麼時間點或是現在是不是可以開始進行這個我國的國中兩性的全面的公費接種HPV疫苗報告委員我想謝謝委員關心這個HPV對男生女生以及對男生的在癌症預防方面的一個好處"},{"start":25198.803,"end":25216.928,"text":"那我想國建署也爭取到議編的機會應該是明年就可以在國中同時在藍營同時來開打好那再次謝謝部長那院長這部分您也要補充一下嗎因為70個國家都實施了我國明年也會實施院長你要特別"},{"start":25218.195,"end":25231.192,"text":"謝謝委員同樣的問題部長在先前的資訊當中也答覆過時程就誠如部長所說的那我們再朝這個時間再做好準備OK好謝謝那接著我就再問勞工議題有請勞動部長那魏部長謝謝勞動部長"},{"start":25235.68,"end":25262.619,"text":"那直接延續剛才有提到我邊講因為時間有限在熱傷害的議題那這個過去我也是勞工背景出身的那這個熱傷害的議題那如果說國建署他是積極呼籲保持涼爽多喝白開水提高警覺這個對勞工來講他並沒有實際意義那像剛才有提到在李昆哲委有提到在質詢的時候八月會做一個法制的檢討"},{"start":25263.76,"end":25288.07,"text":"那我們也很遺憾的看到在昨天的時候新北的板橋工人也是一樣熱中暑熱酸衰竭倒臥陰架搶救不治那同樣許多的法規法令的修正那如果說是用生命來換回那我講實在這都是悲劇那我想接著直接請教一下部長對於高溫假或是高溫今天您的看法"},{"start":25289.168,"end":25312.061,"text":"委員我們目前就是這整個國際上是還沒有所謂高溫價這個高溫價在中東已經實施喔在伊拉克伊朗都有實施因為全球暖化的情況之下許多的國家老族陸續有高溫價喔是是委員他們那個是就是沙漠國家嗎對沙漠國家這是因應全球暖化大家都陸續都在演繹"},{"start":25312.441,"end":25336.327,"text":"可是我們現在會研究因應這個高溫的這個避難勞工他該有的這個避難的設備或設施的立功我直接跟部長回應今天勞工或是僱主他們除了避難避難都已經是後端了那在事前來講的話其實在高溫的尤其是現在暖化的極端汽油之下其實本來高溫的這種情況本來就非常的嚴重那高溫價的議題跟高溫今天的議題討論本來也不是新議題了"},{"start":25339.048,"end":25367.831,"text":"那我在想部長這個部分是不是可以拿出比較具體的比較正向的態度來看待高溫價或高溫津貼?我們現在其實也正在研究針對高溫的問題是不是有可能有一種避難的彈性的工作的安排這個不能說資料準備到避難這個可能是會針對比較有實際的效用因為其實你牽涉到放假勞資雙方都有不同的意見這樣子那麼我們如果要讓勞工真正能夠"},{"start":25368.812,"end":25374.096,"text":"我直接講說避難的這個部分或是相關的設施措施這個部分他不是用人命上面來去做一個就是後面的一個補強或回應"},{"start":25391.79,"end":25419.923,"text":"資料不是說8月要檢討一個整體法制的時候不是說就只有檢討避難措施或是雇主責任而是在這個相關的不管是假的部分以及包括它津貼的部分都應該一併的納入考量納入檢討來講不是說多少溫度以上多少的達到標準的話才能夠進行這個高溫加或高溫津貼應該在考量這個法制的修正來講就應該要整體而不是只局限於說避難那本期還是請這個部長還有包括院長"},{"start":25420.963,"end":25426.429,"text":"針對高溫價、高溫津貼在8月的討論的時候納入總組合之中,院長這樣是否可以?"},{"start":25427.961,"end":25429.221,"text":"好,那這個部分我會提出相關的法案。OK,謝謝。"},{"start":25457.128,"end":25474.625,"text":"好 謝謝有委員楊耀委員之質詢以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報下一位我們請王正旭委員質詢"},{"start":25493.491,"end":25498.174,"text":"謝謝主席。有請院長。請卓院長備詢。委員長好。非常謝謝院長的引領,讓我有機會進入國會、殿堂來服務,替我熱愛的國家"},{"start":25520.677,"end":25537.715,"text":"跟自愛的鄉親民眾們,略盡一份綿薄之力,我一定會全力以赴。謝謝王委員,您在癌症方面的專業是全民都景仰的,希望您在這方面多提供政府許多寶貴的意見,我們共同努力。"},{"start":25538.342,"end":25538.842,"text":"﹚主席"},{"start":25553.769,"end":25568.763,"text":"祝福臺灣健康的這個機會。我們也知道在2030年總統很希望能夠把癌症的死亡率可以減低三分之一。意思就是說在以2022年為例的話"},{"start":25571.03,"end":25590.516,"text":"希望在未來把一萬五千個癌症病人可以免於這個癌症的死亡那當然這個是一個很重要很需要大家一起來努力的目標所以為了要達到這個目標有賴卓院長領導的AI內閣能夠來全力的促成"},{"start":25592.412,"end":25620.244,"text":"我們也知道其實行政院的政務非常的繁忙為了要推動全國各項的這些政務一共設立了45個政務編組其中有18個是屬於法律相關的這些要求另外有27個是屬於依照業務的需要而設立的其中有一項就是中央癌症防治匯報"},{"start":25621.621,"end":25645.943,"text":"所以這一部分依照目前癌症防治法的規定行政院為了要執行癌症防治政策要設立中央防治會報當然由院長來擔任這個召集人每一年至少要開會一次這是目前法律的要求之下那我們也可以"},{"start":25646.704,"end":25672.489,"text":"根據現有的這個任務編組看出來他的法定頻率其實是有非常不一樣的地方包括以治安會報來看他每兩個月就要召開一次那如果以國家永續發展委員會為例的話他是在由國發會擔任幕僚機關一年會需要開會一到兩次那可是為了要因應"},{"start":25674.216,"end":25701.014,"text":"複雜、龐大的工作工作分組跟專案小組他就要另外要求每3到6個月要召開一次的會議那如果以現有的衛福部相關的任務編組來看的話食品安全的匯報每3個月一次可是中央癌症防治匯報我們剛看到的就是至少一年一次這部分請問院長你知道之前開會的記錄狀況如何嗎"},{"start":25704.414,"end":25704.934,"text":"沒錯,因為癌症"},{"start":25726.592,"end":25753.511,"text":"國民的健康造成的危害實在是非常的大而且對於整個民眾財政的負擔對國家的財政負擔也非常非常的嚴重所以我們很期待有更好的開會頻率的同時也能夠加強它的效率我們可以看一下這個數據的確過去這8年多以來民政黨民進黨執政以後一年真的是開一次會議而且相關的會議"},{"start":25754.872,"end":25778.998,"text":"在賴總統擔任院長的時候他是親自主持全城院長他在擔任這個院長的時候他也是親自主持一個是醫師一個是這個公衛的專家所以他們會對於這個會報的主持是非常的希望能夠達到他的目標那不知道院長您將來有機會會來親自主持嗎"},{"start":25782.832,"end":25797.61,"text":"這個請委員放心雖然我本身沒有醫師的專業的知識但是我始終記得賴總統在競選的前後以及當選之後他一直在思索一個問題身為一個醫師出身的總統應該為台灣多做一些什麼事情"},{"start":25798.151,"end":25824.021,"text":"他也用這樣的想法來交付我所有的工作所以包括這麼重要的工作我們在健康台灣的論壇以後來的深耕計畫以及現在要提出的癌症新藥各種方面我們都一一在落實他過去的想法所以未來這樣重大的會議我跟委員表示我也保證我一定親自主持邀請所有的專家跟與會的所有人來共同商量尤其我們在癌症新藥基金成立的前後我想一定會召開這樣的會議"},{"start":25825.848,"end":25844.889,"text":"非常感謝院長不過如果我們再從這個國家永續發展委員會為例的話剛剛我們也知道他其實依照規定是一年召開一到兩次可是因為他的任務真的非常非常的繁複、龐雜所以呢他會設計的各種工作的分組跟專案的小組"},{"start":25845.35,"end":25872.602,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":25873.121,"end":25899.972,"text":"實行狀況可不可以根據現有的公費、癌篩的癌別來做一些分組。未來在執行的時候可以更有效率而且可以讓這些專家們能夠發揮他在提供各種意見的同時更有好的模式來推展整個癌症的防治。剛剛也有很多委員非常關心有關癌症防治尤其在篩檢的部分那這部分"},{"start":25901.598,"end":25930.892,"text":"院長您可以承諾在召開頻率還有在各方面的努力都可以有透過這個癌症防治匯報架構上的處理來讓這個工作可以更落實嗎?謝謝讓這個會議更有功能更有效率這未來一定要朝這個方向做我想除了邱部長之外我還會請陳時中政委也發揮他在這方面的這個專業我們共同來研立如何將委員所建議的這幾項或許還有其他的"},{"start":25931.352,"end":25939.018,"text":"是的,謝謝因為我們知道過去其實相關的部門也非常的努力來做一些癌症的篩檢那我們看到的數據就是癌症篩檢的比例相對來講是到30%到50%不等"},{"start":25959.435,"end":25975.911,"text":"當然這個跟相對其他的一些國家來比並沒有比較差可是如果我們真的希望在2030年要減低這個癌症死亡率的話我們的癌篩一定要再努力的加強不管是在這個項目的"},{"start":25976.732,"end":25976.752,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":25993.573,"end":26021.91,"text":"再過來我們需要關心的就是費用的問題。剛剛有委員也提到這個很擔心這個癌篩費用的經費到底夠不夠。因為我們從這個數據看起來這個菸捐的確相對也是逐年好像受到一些影響。那明年在編列預算上可能會有一些短缺。那這部分院長有沒有什麼更好的方案可以來讓我們這個費用的編列可以達到相關的目標。"},{"start":26023.989,"end":26024.389,"text":"請部長回答"},{"start":26045.151,"end":26073.906,"text":"因為這個癌症的篩檢其實不管是在量或者是它幾乎方面都從一開始到現在幾乎都沒有改變所以如何要怎麼樣提升當然我們要從它的年齡層是不是要擴大還有每一個檢查篩檢現在所有的成本幾乎都提高了所以在幾乎方面也應該要多一點那我們這樣子國健署最近也提出一個整體的癌症的"},{"start":26074.582,"end":26092.261,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":26092.455,"end":26108.936,"text":"好,根據癌症防治法,其實篩檢的費用主要是來自於原品健康福利捐,不過其實它裡面也有規定,或者是也有要求,或者是接受機構團體之捐助,所以同樣的"},{"start":26110.177,"end":26133.627,"text":"如果將來有機會的話我們希望有更多的社會的善心團體或者是一些企業經營企業有成的這些人士們能不能夠針對這個國家未來在癌症篩檢的部分也能夠善盡一份的心力那這部分也麻煩院長有機會的話可以多鼓勵或者是用其他的方式來引導這些團體願意把經費能夠挹注進來"},{"start":26137.429,"end":26150.811,"text":"台灣的社會一直充滿愛心,從過去也不乏這個例子,捐助給醫療機構很大筆的研究或是相關的費用。我想未來我們還是需要民間多方的捐助,公私部門通力來合作。"},{"start":26152.675,"end":26171.07,"text":"麻煩院長。再過來就是有關你口腔癌的部分。其實我們知道口腔癌針對於很多的勞工朋友他是一個很重大的一個議題。因為他們在生活的過程裡面很有可能會因為這個工作的需要而具有這些生活習慣,包括喝酒。"},{"start":26172.293,"end":26200.769,"text":"還有嚼食檳榔跟抽香菸如果有這些習慣的話他得到口腔癌的機會真的是非常非常的高以前葛教授所做的研究甚至高到123倍如果三個都有的話如果是以吃檳榔為例它會提高到28倍所以檳榔真的是一個口腔癌一個重要的因子它對於這些勞工朋友的影響非常非常的大那對於口腔癌如果能夠篩檢的話的確它的效果也非常非常的好"},{"start":26202.102,"end":26224.719,"text":"可是我們目前比較關心的就是檳榔入法的狀況目前針對檳榔的防治其實只有在兒少法跟學校衛生法裡面去要求兒童少年跟高中年級以下的這些同學們不能夠絞食檳榔其他的部分相對規範就非常非常的有限"},{"start":26225.6,"end":26243.583,"text":"所以未來如何有機會跟戀愛防治法一樣能夠進行好的主管機關的規範管理方式跟辦理防治教育跟宣傳等等這一部分院長將來有沒有機會能夠促成這個部分因為目前對於"},{"start":26245.06,"end":26263.831,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":26264.151,"end":26289.793,"text":"並不是要讓民眾不抽香煙這麼簡單,因為這是很困難完全能夠進絕的,我們希望是一個良好的管制,所以如果能夠比照相關在煙品上加注檢語或者是對於檳榔產製的販售,有一些基本的衛生管理,那這個是由哪一個主管機關來管理,院長這部分可不可以有更好的指示來讓相關單位可以辦理。"},{"start":26291.051,"end":26308.737,"text":"報告委員這個工作我們一直很審慎的在進行因為要考慮到過去到現在很多農民他們自己在從事生技上的問題但是從108年開始我們也持續對於檳榔廢園跟轉作做了相當多的努力目前執行了有658公頃的轉作那現在這個計畫還繼續在執行當中會進行到2026年那希望能夠"},{"start":26317.332,"end":26341.306,"text":"逐步的減少這樣的一個籠座的面積那讓他的產生的後遺症可能降低同時也取締這些非法進口的讓他不會危害到大家的健康所以但是現行要檢討檳榔危害防治管理與法規上上有不足的地方我們還要再進一步的研擬但是剛剛講的那個肺炎去轉座的作業方案還是持續在進行當中"},{"start":26342.426,"end":26369.333,"text":"是,好,謝謝。部部長再補充。我補充一下,我們繼續站在衛福部的立場,我們很關心這個對他的健康的危害,所以我們繼續盤點及精進檳榔危害管理的規範。所以我們一直在盤點國內外檳榔衛生安全及包製的這些規範,特別針對孕婦、兒童、青少年等脆弱的族群,就公共衛生及法律的層面,"},{"start":26369.96,"end":26392.91,"text":"我們綜合來評估研議,朝向也許是有檳榔危害防治專法管制的可行性。好,謝謝。那在有限的時間就麻煩院長針對於這個AI智慧醫療,尤其是如何能夠打造這個國家隊的AI能夠去成就"},{"start":26393.59,"end":26394.711,"text":"謝謝委員我們一起在健康臺灣"},{"start":26429.005,"end":26436.908,"text":"好,謝謝王委員。好,謝謝左院長。下一位我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"},{"start":26452.962,"end":26454.623,"text":"請卓院長備詢。民委好。"},{"start":26470.718,"end":26488.235,"text":"院長吳安,就是說因為勞動節放假不同步的困擾,其實對於同一機關裡面多種身份、多種制度來講,其實不只是社會很困擾,其實機關內你們行政部門也有很多的困擾。"},{"start":26489.156,"end":26506.892,"text":"那今年年初就是說內閣還沒有改組以前其實行政部門也有在討論五一勞動節是不是要延誼全國統一放假那我們的前院長陳建仁院長他表達他說他支持"},{"start":26508.133,"end":26524.469,"text":"前院長陳建仁前院長表達支持所以從行政院到人事行政總務到教育等各機關都說等跨部會研議明年有機會統一這個全國都統一放假"},{"start":26526.332,"end":26539.51,"text":"老實說,大家覺得說好像釋放出一個善意了。社會也都在期待。大家也可以理解今年一定是不可能也來不及。大家想說明年有機會的話應該可以"},{"start":26542.194,"end":26547.199,"text":"但是人事行政總署剛公布了這個明年的這個年度休假的這個假期表出來那勞動節五一勞動節仍然維持原案"},{"start":26568.377,"end":26591.877,"text":"只有適用勞基法的勞工有權利放假和出勤請求加班費其實是很多人都很失望這個我們在這裡要跟院長請示就是說你知道臺灣最重要民間壓力最大大概就是生產部門可是生產部門五一勞動節本來就放假所以像金融機關啊工業生產的各個部門啊"},{"start":26594.098,"end":26621.656,"text":"他們都同意休假也都很多人放假尤其是金融單位都放假了那我們在這裡講說在剩下的除了不適用勞基法的以外那最多人數最多就是公務機關公務員那最可憐的像最難受的像莫過於像育兒階段的老師自己沒有辦法顧自己的小孩還要到學校去顧去上課然後顧大家的小孩"},{"start":26622.716,"end":26645.093,"text":"那沒有適用勞基法的人還必須要上班然後請人去照顧自己的小孩或者是自行請假這種狀況裡面真的是很多困擾這個院長有沒有機會讓我們可以期待明年2025年這個休假期一五一勞動節全國都來放假"},{"start":26648.522,"end":26648.562,"text":"平年?"},{"start":26668.12,"end":26691.736,"text":"今年公布明年的行事曆所以明年還是維持所值的理由是什麼陳建仁前院長在這裡本來就已經大家期待說他認為是他支持的跟委員報告這個我承認還有很多的溝通還沒有辦法完全的進行到最大的困擾是什麼對大家各方面的意見都有啦表示說這個"},{"start":26693.314,"end":26720.615,"text":"這樣的放假會不會帶動其他的相關個別的身份類別的一個討論?那我們覺得這個有必要在... 因為台灣800萬、1000萬的勞工都放假了是用勞基法的只剩下幾乎最多的就剩下公務人員我就說我承認我們在這個尋求共識的過程當中今年還沒有這麼順利但我們會繼續的跟大家在探索最好的模式是怎麼樣那未來我們再從長計議"},{"start":26722.073,"end":26742.373,"text":"那如果是這樣的話,其實你們有,行政部門有回覆給我們啦。他講的一個是說,這個因為以前立法院24年前做過一個決議啦,這個機關的放假日不能夠再更多了。那我認為這不是理由。立法院的決議從來就沒有這麼的有效力過。其實真正的原因是成本。"},{"start":26743.453,"end":26771.207,"text":"但是你都願意給軍公教加薪了那我們也請院長解決勞動解全國放假不一致的這個問題但至少在這裡先承諾我們說你多久以內會召集這個跨部會研議因為據我們所知行政部門陳建仁院長雖然支持這樣的方向但是從來沒有開過跨部會研議的會議啊那"},{"start":26771.807,"end":26792.922,"text":"我們是不是能夠請卓院長有魄力那就大刀闊斧的就了解或請這個內政部跟勞動部一起開會討論然後行政院召集相關的單位共同協商朝全國放假一致的方向去研議可不可以"},{"start":26793.744,"end":26811.025,"text":"報告委員這個重要的幾個部會我們雖然沒有召集會議的形式但個別的詢問徵詢都是有的而得出來的結果是大家意見還沒有辦法趨於一致甚至包括外界也是這個樣子所以這個公務機關而已沒有外界經濟部門產業部門都放假了"},{"start":26811.325,"end":26812.105,"text":"時間適當的時間再跟委員來報告"},{"start":26841.188,"end":26860.624,"text":"這個這個是很重要的,因為事實上我們都知道現在只剩下公務機關的人數是最多的,其他全國都放假,可是一個機關不同調,一個社會也不同調,真的有很多很多的困擾,要不然差這幾天說不定我們下去死了。那另外呢,我們也接下來要討論的是SRF的問題,我想這個"},{"start":26864.52,"end":26873.687,"text":"委員長克林,SRF大家討論都是桃園這個個案的爭議,但我沒有要談桃園這個個案的爭議,我其實要談的是制度面的問題。部長,我們都知道環境部已經啟動了SRF的營運體檢輔導團,"},{"start":26884.395,"end":26898.243,"text":"要針對各場進行體檢,那就原料製造端和在使用端上都一直要體檢這樣子,要一起做。那你也提出了幾個改靜的方案,但是我在這裡可能要跟部長再討論一下更細節。第一個,"},{"start":26900.124,"end":26902.467,"text":"實用SRF作為燃料的工廠,這5年內,過去5年,抽驗了17個工廠,一共217根的管道,其中99%檢驗出帶澳芯。"},{"start":26917.123,"end":26944.85,"text":"兩百一十七根的煙囪管道裡面只有兩根的煙道裡面代澳鋅是零其他百分之九十九都檢出代澳鋅代澳鋅的這個多或少只是這樣的差異若以現在既有的固定污染源代澳鋅的排放標準來看這兩百一十七根新設污染源的排放標準值都應該要小於0.5耐克"},{"start":26946.65,"end":26946.93,"text":"﹚中文字幕"},{"start":26967.097,"end":26993.705,"text":"因為工業部門使用的鍋爐所產生的空氣污染的排放標準你們當然是希望它嚴格一點因為你知道有污染的固定污染源或者是這個焚化廠他們在做還品的時候其實都有相當的這個標準設置標準的比如說它是不在人口密度高的地方不會在人口密度高的都市的中間去設置的可是"},{"start":26994.685,"end":27006.268,"text":"不要忘了工業生產的工廠其實人口活動人口密度是相當高的所以以鍋爐的空氣污染排放標準來講我們的那個標準應該小於0.1奈克在這種狀況裡面你檢出大躍興就有15根的煙道超標而且重點是"},{"start":27015.111,"end":27033.933,"text":"﹗"},{"start":27034.233,"end":27034.253,"text":"﹚一、"},{"start":27058.388,"end":27081.419,"text":"台泥2020年9月採樣的花蓮的和平廠為例啊,它的代號新濃度不是你們的這個0.1奈克,而是減出0.215奈克。所以根據這個你們新修的鍋爐空氣污染排放標準的話,你們還說除了水泥液以外都要"},{"start":27082.139,"end":27082.379,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":27098.652,"end":27122.838,"text":"其實有兩個部分因為過去呢這個對於這個SRF的製造其實他非常的含混所以我們的預期的體檢之後會有顯著的分級如果分級之後其實他如果燒的料是正確的白料就沒有這樣的問題沒有強制力部長你莫多加呼嚨我們沒有強制力的分級你國家的管制標準是產品標準你們仍然是最低標準"},{"start":27123.737,"end":27149.515,"text":"你這個分級只是建議沒有強制力報告委員這個我們會用強制提升到管理的辦法來處理因為過去是指引而已那另外一個委員強調的是在水泥窯的部分其實我們未來會為什麼要排除水泥窯而現在所有的跡象和證據還有採樣的樣本都證明水泥窯不但不像葉哲說的我們不會燒出代號心而且還燒出超標的代號心了"},{"start":27150.055,"end":27164.737,"text":"報告委員這個我們現在所有的第一個是一定會比照全部都要有那水泥因為過去他們的專業認知是因為他的溫度高所以大澳溪燒不出來可是食物面就是撿出阿對所以這個部分我們會比照新的辦法所以我們那個辦法"},{"start":27165.418,"end":27166.479,"text":"這個目前只是草案,所以委員的意見我們會把它放進去。"},{"start":27183.126,"end":27208.419,"text":"謝謝,那我們現在講說工業鍋爐你知道工業區其實就在住宅區旁邊啊工業區進進出出的活動的人相當多人口密度相當的高所以工業鍋爐燃燒什麼東西其實是會影響受體的就工業區的排放大家都會吸得到的嘛那以前那時候這個大躍興排放潛勢比較低的這個煤炭"},{"start":27209.6,"end":27220.07,"text":"那大家都覺得不需要檢測嘛,可是現在你要混燒了,工業鍋爐可以燒SRF,SRF會產生大腰心,甚至現在產出大家檢測到甚至還有這個塑化劑。"},{"start":27226.056,"end":27238.482,"text":"所以但是在整個燒你們有管制標準排放的標準可是它是混燒混燒它燃煤然後也燒SRF但是呢混燒的狀況它會稀釋掉這個代澳鋅的濃度"},{"start":27243.064,"end":27263.383,"text":"所以現行規劃採用專燒垃圾的焚化爐的代號性排放標準來規範是混燒一定比例SRF的工業鍋爐那麼這些稀釋的效應會讓工業鍋爐很容易就達標他沒有違反這個規定沒有超出排放標準"},{"start":27264.264,"end":27285.244,"text":"可是我們都知道工業鍋爐的規模龐大排氣量甚至是焚化爐的好幾倍而透過稀釋混燒而達標的這個廢氣它的帶澳心的濃度在乘以龐大的這個排氣量以後它的排放量總量總量"},{"start":27287.566,"end":27311.946,"text":"他可能不下於焚化爐而這樣排放的加成作用環境部真的有思考到嗎?報告委員其實這個部分因為現在有17個在使用這個SRF的這個所謂的工業用的或是說水泥窯其實我們未來會全部的逐一的加嚴到標準所以委員提到的問題我們的確現在未來在這個你們的草案你們標準恐怕還太寬鬆另外再講"},{"start":27314.568,"end":27315.529,"text":"因為時間有限我最後講喔"},{"start":27333.945,"end":27360.125,"text":"所以你們現在以焚化廢棄而行SRF之名的這種疑慮都還存在用最低的品質最低的門檻然後誰有動機會做出好的一點的SRF呢所以最後再講SRF製造廠有49家那使用廠有17家你們不斷的開放設立製造廠那製造的人越來越多產出的量越來越多可是這個它的原料變少了"},{"start":27361.246,"end":27371.79,"text":"那廢棄物供給量供給量不足他為了充產能會不會鋌而走險使用不可作為固體再生燃料廢棄物的原料或是進口廢棄物來製造SRF呢?報告委員不會有進口會因為你們的"},{"start":27396.737,"end":27396.757,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":27408.215,"end":27414.307,"text":"好,謝謝林委員,謝謝卓院長。八院會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":28037.14,"end":28056.016,"text":"報告委員會現在繼續開會。請邱委員若法質詢。謝謝主席。有請卓院長。請卓院長備選。"},{"start":28066.84,"end":28078.939,"text":"委員好 院長午安 那首先先來請問院長一個問題 院長請問您知道算至今年2月我國全臺縣市人口成長率排名第一的是哪一個縣市嗎"},{"start":28080.302,"end":28107.391,"text":"全國縣市人口成長率就所知桃園是增加很快的沒錯第一名是就是我們桃園市那根據內政部最新人口統計全臺縣市人口成長率排名第一就是我們桃園市年增率達1.32%一年內增加了3萬人大約3萬人那桃園市近一年的人口成長幅度最多的行政區我們依序來看首先是貴山區年長幅是"},{"start":28108.527,"end":28109.668,"text":"委員長,請問這樣人口爆炸性的成長這是我們10年前能預見的嗎?"},{"start":28124.35,"end":28138.731,"text":"應該不是,所以我們的一些公共的事是跟一些相關的配備要補得上來、趕得上來。對,跟著提升嘛。那就是因為2014年桃園升格為直轄市之後,社會福利變多了嘛,重大的公共建設。"},{"start":28139.702,"end":28144.885,"text":"南桃園有天成醫療體系聯興國際醫院還有衛生福利部的桃園醫院等可以說是醫療資源相當的豐富但是院長桃園人口成長最多的地方是龜山區、觀音區還有桃園區這些都是北桃園"},{"start":28163.815,"end":28184.969,"text":"那是我們的醫療區域已經10多年沒有來做調整了。桃園市2010年是200萬人,到最新的統計已經達232萬人。232萬人,成長了32萬人,這樣是什麼樣一個概念?就是直逼一個基隆市的人口。那反觀基隆市人口持續的外流,從38萬人已經萎縮到36萬人。"},{"start":28188.166,"end":28188.346,"text":"巴德區人口"},{"start":28218.134,"end":28219.915,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個桃園的醫療資源的一個分布的確在巴德地區人口已經超過已經達20萬因此我們"},{"start":28245.509,"end":28270.057,"text":"已經把臺灣市的次醫療區由兩區變成三區,新增加的巴德次醫療區。那這個床數的話我們會再來精算。那目前,大概...那這邊呃,本席告訴部長齁,如果從兩處的次醫療區域調整為三個嘛,就是這個範圍包括巴德、大溪、復興、平鎮、龍潭,那床數可以增加1528床。"},{"start":28274.451,"end":28294.084,"text":"每萬人不能超過50張的急性還有慢性一般病狀。院長關於巴德次醫療園區這件事分為兩個層次。第一個是巴德以及鄰近的人口我們看到增加如此快速那是否還適用我們的次醫療區院區這是第一個問題。"},{"start":28294.844,"end":28308.61,"text":"那另外那桃園進來桃園整個人口都在提升北桃園的其實相對是非常缺乏醫療資源那是否我們北桃園人需要自己的區域醫院請院長部長說明"},{"start":28310.231,"end":28333.873,"text":"我們如果用均衡臺灣的理念來看,各地的各項的公共設施的配比應該要讓它合理均勻化。但是也考慮到地方的配合,很多的包括土地啦,包括人力啦,包括經費,這個都要一併考慮在內。那應該衛福部會有詳細的、詳實的計畫。各位部委員報告一下,我們在109年2月12日已經席可八德。"},{"start":28334.786,"end":28360.928,"text":"長榮醫院的設立這個在八德區病床的規模大概100急性一般病床150床那這個部分已經合格那在111年5月原則同意清華大學新設立桃園護舍醫院這個在大園病床規模為急性一般病床200床及精神病床達30床另外桃園市政府好像也有意義要設置市立醫院"},{"start":28361.738,"end":28382.234,"text":"那一般病床也達到100床,這個也可以由臺灣市政府向衛福部提出申請。是,部長其實將兩個區域劃為三個一直是我們臺灣市政府提出的,那巴德您有提到巴德偵測醫院那都還沒有新建中,所以巴德大西的民眾他們都必須要到新北市鄰近的醫院來就醫。"},{"start":28382.754,"end":28392.122,"text":"那剛才講到我們桃園市政府衛生局嘛那根據衛生局統計啊一般急性一般還有的病床是7919床桃園次區域是5253床中壢的次區域是2666床平均每萬人口35床每萬人口是35床"},{"start":28402.83,"end":28426.029,"text":"那雖然衛福部醫生會另外通過1894床的急性一般病床但這些都還是本期剛才說到籌建中的醫院比如說像是聖保祿醫院還有我們的國軍桃園總醫院增設的病床長遠看下來我們地方真的很需要醫療資源重新的合理來分配那最重要的是要重新的劃分次醫療區"},{"start":28427.751,"end":28446.107,"text":"是的,我想花粉是醫療區域的區域就是希望能夠把資源分配的讓民眾的可敬性醫療可敬性能夠增加而且能夠由各個醫院整個由各級從比較大的醫院到小的醫院到基層醫療聯合起來所以我想我們"},{"start":28449.75,"end":28475.669,"text":"我們已經先公布這個將會都設一個區域那我們會去了解到整個要興建的或者是已經通過的整個來做一個檢討我想我們這個部分檢討以後我們再跟那個委員您報告我們共同來思考怎麼樣來充實這裡的醫療資源那同時院長可否請您回去就上開的問題啊接通我們桃園市政府還有衛生"},{"start":28476.611,"end":28502.261,"text":"衛福部等相關的單位來共同討論符合桃園的發展對策。我們也不能每一次每一次政策都在邊緣性的來做修改嘛。那隨著我們人口也高齡化對於醫療的需求會更加深。桃園現在的情況也不是當初的規劃次醫療區的情況。我們為什麼不一剛開始呢就把這個事情做到為給我們桃園的一個安身利命的好環境。"},{"start":28503.041,"end":28512.97,"text":"那克珀琴院長回去就本席提出的問題像是重新畫設治醫療區然後還有給巴德一個區域型的醫院來就討論那可以在兩個月內開會完畢嗎?"},{"start":28516.221,"end":28517.222,"text":"院長您知道早期療癒和復健之間的分水嶺在哪嗎?"},{"start":28545.66,"end":28553.005,"text":"早期療癒還有復健6歲之前叫早期療癒6歲之後叫做復健那院長部長根據衛福部統計臺灣的早期療癒服務跟通報人數我們從2011年來看齊是逐步的緩"},{"start":28562.852,"end":28580.38,"text":"那平均每年增加7%2019年在疫情爆發之前通報人數已經超過25000人了2020還有2021因為受到新冠疫情的影響沒有明顯的波動那疫情解封之後我們看到2022通報人數大幅的上升2023年通報的人數高達34780人"},{"start":28585.282,"end":28608.865,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":28609.195,"end":28635.13,"text":"特教資源系統但很多孩子雖然年紀已經超過6歲他們還是有繼續復健的必要性那請問院長你有注意過這個問題嗎?這個問題我們曾經接觸過很多找療的單位包括在台南各地他們都有對這些早期發展比較遲緩的或是需要照顧的小孩子做了很多這個學前的一些輔導的工作"},{"start":28636.65,"end":28659.197,"text":"謝謝,謝謝院長有關心到這個問題。那我們這邊要來討論的是,針對特殊境遇的家庭,如果他們,特殊境遇的家庭,如果他們碰上有持續需要找療或是復健的孩子,家庭的負擔是非常沉重的,相信院長和部長都知道。也許執政者會說,如果他們有身心障礙手冊的話,他們可以來申請復康巴士。"},{"start":28659.497,"end":28674.974,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":28675.612,"end":28675.712,"text":"您認同嗎?"},{"start":28698.845,"end":28715.985,"text":"拜訪委員認同,而且我們除了早療的一個早期的發現,我們現在的努力是把早期發現,然後發現有一個早療的治療以後也連結到醫療的機構,那這個部分在量能方面這幾年擴展得非常的大。"},{"start":28717.473,"end":28719.155,"text":"因為我們現在看到針對弱勢家庭還有特殊境遇的家庭本席有請教臺北市政府"},{"start":28740.194,"end":28761.483,"text":"他們有施行這個政策一年需要增加多少預算我們得到的答案是兩百多萬元其實兩百多萬元其實這樣子並不算高可是如果我們來支持他們可以讓特殊監獄的曼菲爾家庭有希望並給予他們最及時的幫助院長這樣的德政我們是否可以全國統一的來施行"},{"start":28762.443,"end":28763.424,"text":"我們馬上再來了解來精進來精進"},{"start":28777.169,"end":28800.006,"text":"是,那再請部長回去做研究。那本身要說對於我們資源比較集中的北部、北台灣都還需要這樣的補助。那更何況是資源較匱乏的其他偏鄉地區。那這個制度一旦施行的話,可以有拋磚引玉的作用。那其他的單位也可以陸續的加入,並且投入關注這樣的情況。"},{"start":28801.937,"end":28802.297,"text":"可不可以請委員在"},{"start":28825.705,"end":28849.592,"text":"我們希望能夠推動弱勢兒童還有少年醫療補助,讓6歲以上未滿18歲的弱勢兒少,也可以申請健保不給付需自費發展,遲緩療癒的教育訓練費用。我想只要弱勢家庭需要幫忙的,不管是在健保或者是在社福方面,應該都會給他最大的支持。"},{"start":28850.78,"end":28877.823,"text":"那希望衛福部這邊可以持續來做關注那包括罕見疾病還有重大傷病的兒童我們這小孩子的照顧是我們非常重中之重OK再拜託部長請衛福研議這個方式好謝謝那我們接下來看遠距離醫療一條龍看診還有領藥院長我們桃園雖然整體來說給人家交通方便整體來說交通方便的印象但是桃園其實有交通不便利的偏鄉部長您知道是哪裡嗎"},{"start":28881.092,"end":28906.109,"text":"我們桃園的偏鄉桃園的偏鄉對您知道是哪裡嗎請委員指教是我們桃園的復興區復興鄉復興復興那我們桃園市政府為了減緩偏鄉育媽咪看診的不方便辦了一個叫做線上看診APP的遠端服務那因為山區的交通相當的不方便目前也沒有復產"},{"start":28907.483,"end":28908.504,"text":"請問院長您認為這個政策如何?"},{"start":28921.681,"end":28923.902,"text":"我看了一下我們全民健康保險遠距醫療幾戶計畫專門科"},{"start":28943.226,"end":28943.406,"text":"這個可以"},{"start":28960.049,"end":28960.309,"text":"謝謝邱委員謝謝院長"},{"start":28989.57,"end":29015.475,"text":"下一位請圖全級委員質詢好謝謝主席請我們院長還有我們的邱部長請左院長還有邱部長備詢"},{"start":29023.809,"end":29023.949,"text":"主席"},{"start":29035.185,"end":29058.918,"text":"部桃新屋分院擴建案的進度那這一部分先跟院長還有部長讓你們先了解一下這個我們時間軸那我們在108年12月3號的時候我們當時我們蔡英文總統到部桃新屋分院的時候就有講新屋分院擴建案已經核准馬上就要進行"},{"start":29059.498,"end":29075.065,"text":"完工以後可讓地方民眾就醫健康檢查更方便所以在108年的時候蔡總統宣布這個好消息說中央政府也全力支持不逃醫院所以民眾也抱有很大的期待那後來大概在109年的時候我們也"},{"start":29077.526,"end":29101.32,"text":"知道衛福部次長當時的石崇良次長也說自己的意願責無旁貸那緊接著後來我們的現在的總統我們的賴清德總統那時候在112年4月13號也是當時總統提名的第二天他也到我們部桃新屋分院他也非常關心我們偏鄉醫療"},{"start":29102.682,"end":29113.816,"text":"也說關懷到院復健的長者將持續給予部桃新屋分院更多的協助新建第二醫療大樓提供新屋關於沿海居民更多醫療的服務當時在總統在"},{"start":29117.597,"end":29132.956,"text":"去到我們部桃新屋分院的時候那時候距離大選大概30幾天那後來我們賴靖德總統是在總統提名後第二天也到部桃新屋分院那我們也非常非常的期待因為沿海的醫療資源非常匱乏"},{"start":29133.416,"end":29160.843,"text":"好這一部分也要先跟院長報告希望藉由這一次的機會希望我們院長跟部長針對我們桃園南區尤其沿海這醫療匱乏資源的問題那希望能夠多幫我們爭取這醫療資源那針對部桃新屋分院這部分部長我們現在這個進度到底到哪裡從108年說已經開始完成已經開始進行那現在到底進行到哪裡"},{"start":29161.909,"end":29178.939,"text":"請部長報告進的進度好謝謝委員那也感謝我們在前幾個禮拜去考察的時候委員也特別親自來一起來關心我們新屋這一邊尤其是海邊這一邊的醫療資源的一個興建那因為我們桃園醫院其實在"},{"start":29187.537,"end":29215.12,"text":"本來就有送一些一直在修改一些計畫然後這中間剛好承攬的廠商那個建築師在112年11月26日生故所以我們變成說重新再依照工程會的一個函我們再重新來函付在113年7月2日函付重新辦理規劃招標作業以一一一"},{"start":29216.388,"end":29217.993,"text":"三年齡,6月12號結標,現在正在演繹計畫書,我想預計"},{"start":29225.32,"end":29250.969,"text":"現在正在研擬計畫書嗎?將計畫書送給本部審查通過,我們會提報行政院來審核。好,其實這個問題那時候我們跟部長也去考察啦。相信部長對這部分的了解。那今天藉由總諮詢提出,就是希望我們卓院長能夠多幫忙。因為我們希望我們政策是有延續性的。從108年蔡總統就宣布"},{"start":29251.389,"end":29251.529,"text":"﹚第11屆第21次會議"},{"start":29277.327,"end":29304.745,"text":"跟邱部長針對我們部桃西部分院的擴建就是主要就是為我們沿海醫療資源匱乏的問題能夠盡量幫我們提升希望今年8月的時候這個部桃能夠提出他的這個計畫出來會提到衛福部我就請衛福部能夠審慎的審查希望院長部長為我們這沿海醫療資源多幫我們來爭取是好那接下來這部分可能要請我們環境部的彭部長"},{"start":29306.276,"end":29308.11,"text":"那邱部長可以先請休息"},{"start":29314.978,"end":29340.225,"text":"好,副部長,針對上個月底我們環境部我們看提出了一個新的草案,就是要把我們空污排放標準加鹽管制,還有加強料源管理並比照國際ISO,還有SRF營運體檢輔導團等等。好,這一些我們環境部針對SRF管理的修法,三大草案跟大致的方向,你看一下這個,"},{"start":29341.665,"end":29366.691,"text":"這個是我們提出三大草案的三大方向吧?對,謝謝。好,那針對這部分呢,其實部長也知道,其實現在SRF其實為什麼會大家這麼注意,就是因為我們桃園有三家SRF這垃圾發電廠的進駐。我想請問一下,民眾都說SRF根本就是垃圾焚化爐發電廠,這部分部長你對這有什麼看法?"},{"start":29367.191,"end":29381.75,"text":"報告委員,SRF它是一種再生能源,但是它不等於綠電,也不等於綠能,所以這是非常清楚的。那過去呢,其實桃園有非常多家的SRF的製造廠,它其實我真的去看過,上年後第二個禮拜就去看了。"},{"start":29382.13,"end":29405.551,"text":"也看出這個問題所以我們才很快的就有一個輔導團成立那我們也預先設置一個草案也報告委員因為這個問題還蠻大的所以我很勇於的接受這個挑戰我們9月份整個全台灣49家還有49家製造商還有17家的使用SRF的工廠我們全部會有一個體檢報告我們會把這種指引提升為管理辦法"},{"start":29406.445,"end":29420.813,"text":"好其實這部分在委員會的時候我也跟部長有提出過質詢那其實我們對彭部長的期望也很高也看我們彭部長在接受媒體訪問的時候在6月6號的時候你也有講"},{"start":29422.635,"end":29451.073,"text":"從幫助檢探的角度SRF不應該被汙名化所以我們也同意希望SRF這個標準能夠提高所以對部長我們也有很高的期望而且說實在據我們了解我那時候也知道原來我們部長也是觀音出身也算是我們觀音人我希望部長有空來觀音走一走因為觀音的鄉親對這個空窩真的是忍無可忍我們希望部長有空來觀音走走SRF不要來"},{"start":29451.673,"end":29475.929,"text":"沒問題其實報告委員其實桃園的問題因為他現在已經進入他的整個桃科已經有環評通過了所以基本上他的這個管理還是在桃園市政府因為他的一個總量管制所以這個還是要桃園市政府來決定啦那我們目前處理的是49家生產製造的包含很多在桃園那還有這個在使用的那未來如果他們開始營運我們一樣的標準會同樣的列管"},{"start":29476.277,"end":29505.139,"text":"好部長那我們先來討論一下就是我們新三法草案跟現行規範的比較齁我們看一下我們重金屬空氣污染物鉛、鋼、鎘這排放的標準這是我們新草案的排放標準嘛對不對沒錯對好這是新草案排放標準那看一下我們現在現行的現行草案的標準來比較看一下部長你看一下這個好像兩個標準是一模一樣"},{"start":29506.584,"end":29523.351,"text":"這個是我們其實還有別的標準包含戴奧辛我們是完全是比照歐盟的標準那戴奧辛我們在討論所以看起來千鞏葛三個重金屬其實我們查過就是照搬廢棄物、焚化爐、空氣污染物的排放標準其實是一模一樣"},{"start":29524.411,"end":29544.626,"text":"好那接下來我們來看因為部長剛剛有講還有代號心的部分好我們來看一下我們下一個我們代號心我們代號心的部分我們也來看齁其實跟剛剛是一樣齁也是直接磨用中巧型廢棄物氛化毒代號心管制及排放標準部長你有沒有發現其實也是一樣"},{"start":29545.106,"end":29547.088,"text":"所以其實剛剛前面我聽部長講其實部長對SRF如果講稱為垃圾焚化爐部長應該也不是很認同"},{"start":29564.826,"end":29585.22,"text":"對,其實它如果有些是白料,像我在桃園看到有的是白料的,認真的那就是OK,但是也有些真的是垃圾去壓的,那就有問題。可是我們看一下我們從重金屬,三項重金屬的排放標準,鉛、鋼、鎘,還有我們剛剛講你說代耀鋅,代耀鋅的排放標準也是比照垃圾焚化毒,所以它這個"},{"start":29585.981,"end":29586.902,"text":"不是,所以我的意思是說"},{"start":29611.439,"end":29626.256,"text":"這SRF你就是拿垃圾焚化塗的標準來做啊所以我們說SRF就是垃圾焚化塗目前看起來就是啊沒有錯啊就是至少以這個標準但是過去是完全沒有特別的標準過去是更鬆的"},{"start":29626.496,"end":29641.084,"text":"我希望部長我們針對SRF那時候你接受訪問你說要更嚴格說實在我們看到我們新修的草案根本就是搬舊的來使用也就是跟現行的規範是一模一樣那所以我們也看過"},{"start":29642.145,"end":29663.585,"text":"有好幾家其實SRF的電廠他訂的標準都比我們環境部訂的標準還嚴格所以我覺得部長處針對這部分我們要好好針對這個草案再來研議一下好 謝謝委員 這個是草案那還有討論的空間那主要我們等9月我們的那個體檢報告完整出來之後也歡迎委員逐一的來檢視"},{"start":29664.406,"end":29681.817,"text":"所以我就是希望就是草案希望提醒部長這個草案跟之前是一模一樣所以完全沒有改啊所以居然是草案希望在還能改還能加嚴的時候請部長喔這部分一定要注意我怕你沒有注意到你看這兩樣重金屬跟我們"},{"start":29682.697,"end":29701.747,"text":"大躍興最主要大躍興跟重金屬這兩樣根本就是搬舊法完全來照抄使用然後針對我們貴部3月份修正的事業廢棄物清理計畫審查第7次的修正版我們看作為SRF原料的廢棄物當中有啦這一部分有進步了齁"},{"start":29702.347,"end":29723.65,"text":"三除了污泥類,但是我要跟部長報告喔,最主要的部分我們的塑膠、橡膠也就是會產生四季之毒的黛奧辛完全還是在裡面。那針對我們大家最擔心空污最影響最嚴重的黛奧辛,我們看到還是沒有改善啊。"},{"start":29724.814,"end":29752.106,"text":"報告委員其實如果說他的鍋爐的溫度夠高他戴奧星的這個問題就可以解決所以其實我們還是要嚴格逐一的看每一個鍋爐他的溫度還有他使用的料材有多少所以基本上我們是基本上先用這個焚化爐的標準來處理這個SRF的使用場但是未來我覺得我們在等到9月份體檢報告出來了之後如果我們發現還是有混料還是產生的話會明顯的加嚴"},{"start":29752.686,"end":29761.052,"text":"部長你講的溫度就是熱值嘛對不對?熱值啊對對對好那我們來看下一步齁我們針對我們現在新草案有關SRF的規範齁我請問一下我們是根據國際哪個標準來訂定的?歐盟"},{"start":29765.868,"end":29784.384,"text":"我們就是比照 歐盟他是EN15359還是ISO21640你是用哪一個標準應該是左邊的21640 21640是我們現在算是我們最新的標準但是我們部長請你看一下你剛剛有講"},{"start":29785.645,"end":29808.099,"text":"那我們就是相同的進熱值就是大於等於2392我們來做比較你看國際的標準綠的含量小於1.5、拱的含量小於0.1但是我們新草案SRF2其實這就是我們一般現在的標準綠含量是大於等於3、拱的含量是大於等於0.15"},{"start":29809.46,"end":29822.115,"text":"所以我們一直講說要訂立嚴格的標準你看以我們相同的熱值而且你以國際相同的標準ISO21640你看我們的標準還是寬鬆非常非常多阿"},{"start":29822.814,"end":29849.754,"text":"報告委員這個只是草案我們還有討論的時間因為它只是一個預告期那我們也會遵照委員的建議我們知道如果9月出來的時候我們也會把這個意見把它採納進來對啊所以所以我就說因為是草案所以我一定要現在講你等到標準定定的時候我怕為時已晚還有我們針對我們針對我們SRF其實我看我們比較有改變的地方就是我們針對分級制度我們當初舊的規範是4級"},{"start":29851.775,"end":29851.955,"text":"﹚第11屆第1會期第2會期"},{"start":29870.319,"end":29870.72,"text":"發言委員：完整"},{"start":29883.647,"end":29901.852,"text":"報告委員這個其實等到9月我們那個體檢報告因為現在我們逐一的全台灣49家一家一家的製造廠還有使用廠我們一家一家看等到我們這個完整之後我們再來讓跟委員再討論這個問題可以嗎?好所以我現在是看到草案我就是希望凸顯我們現在針對這草案所發現的問題"},{"start":29905.333,"end":29905.353,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":29935.031,"end":29961.751,"text":"好,謝謝杜委員、謝謝卓院長。發言會本會期本院委員對行政院卓院長提出施政方針報告之質詢。自5月31日起經過6次院會10個會議日質詢,已於今日詢答完畢。謝謝卓院長及各部會首長列席答詢。在質詢結束前再請卓院長講幾句話。"},{"start":29975.198,"end":29999.534,"text":"韓院長江副院長各位委員先進各位媒體朋友大院第11屆第1會期對行政院提出施政方針報告的質詢到今天順利的完成很感謝各位委員先進在質詢的過程當中對行政院提出了很多寶貴的意見跟指教這個都是未來"},{"start":30000.514,"end":30020.544,"text":"貴我兩院要共同遵循努力的方向創造對人民最大的福祉這點再度深深的表示感謝至於在備詢當中若干不及答覆的部分我也請各部委首長能夠用書面、詳實的跟委員先進來提出一一詳細的報告"},{"start":30022.264,"end":30044.352,"text":"那未來我們還有更多的工作要共同努力。在結束了總質詢之後,行政院會以兩個雙主軸來開始國家的重大建設。一個就是經濟發展,一個就是強化治安。經濟發展的這個工作當中,我們在這個月份就會召開第一次的經濟發展委員會。我們會從創新經濟"},{"start":30050.058,"end":30070.307,"text":"軍衡臺灣以及包容成長三個主題全面的開始全面推動。那麼在強化治安的過程當中我們會從打詐、掃黑、速貪、反毒強力的執行。打詐的過程我們在過去一段時間已經看了相當多在相關部會執行的效果。"},{"start":30071.267,"end":30097.252,"text":"我們希望所有的那個守護神能夠一併的發揮更大的強大的力量讓打詐工作讓人民能夠感到心安那至於在掃黑、速貪、反毒的過程當中我們在6月25號已經展開了第一波的競評專案內容針對綠能、速貪、掃黑做全面性的檢查跟防堵那麼從今天開始"},{"start":30098.399,"end":30117.104,"text":"全國同步的掃黑及速貪行動也已經展開。讓我容我再次強調反黑、掃黑跟速貪是人民檢視政府的唯一標準。我們在掃黑跟速貪的過程當中我們不容許有任何"},{"start":30118.43,"end":30142.762,"text":"突發的事情所以這個部分我們希望能夠全面的展開在樹攤跟掃黑絕對不留情面也絕對沒有上限在樹攤跟掃黑的打掃毒當中我們也一定的要讓大家知道沒有人可以僥倖得逞也沒有在這裡有任何的模糊空間這是我們再次的強調"},{"start":30143.956,"end":30166.039,"text":"所以未來希望為我兩院繼續在國家安全、社會安定跟人民安心的工作上能夠繼續的工作。下個會期大院裡面還有對於行政院未來國家的總預算以及若干重大的法案還要繼續的拜託大家一併的支持當然還有其他的人事同意權。"},{"start":30166.994,"end":30186.465,"text":"我們期待我們共同在為許多人民所關切期待的法案的預算能夠在適時的時間內能夠通過。再次謝謝韓院長、江副院長、各位委員先進。也謝謝立法院工作的同仁們,這一次真的辛苦,給行政院很大的協助跟幫忙。祝大家身體健康,大家幸福,謝謝。"},{"start":30192.611,"end":30220.529,"text":"好,謝謝卓院長現做以下決定將各委員發言記錄及書面質詢含送行政院請就位答覆部分予以書面答覆以提出之書面質詢尚未刊登公報者一律補刊繼續處理復議案本院國民黨團針對第二次會議報告事項第48案之決定提出復議"},{"start":30221.756,"end":30229.604,"text":"請公決案現做以下決定令定期處理。報告院會本次會議進行到此為止。現在散會。"},{"start":30255.602,"end":30270.426,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30275.094,"end":30281.852,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"154584","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154584","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb6183563d3539626fd35a09fb1100d58f4be9d3d28c55f1f245bc9668ff6a1ef9dbc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"15:02:44 - 15:18:36","影片長度":"00:15:52","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T15:02:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T15:18:36+08:00","duration":952,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":90,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（15時2分）謝謝主席。有請卓院長以及邱部長。"],["主席：卓院長、邱部長請備詢。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，你要喝個水嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，解放軍戰機最近四面環臺的天數跟次數是越來越高，我們6月還為了解放軍海軍曾經擔任過艇長的男子駕駛小艇駛入淡水河口，政府也承認反應過慢，為時已晚。院長，兩岸關係越演越烈，越來越緊張，今天我們要積極備戰，我們也要努力避戰，我想這是政府應該有的態度吧！對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一向是認為備戰才能避戰，能戰才能止戰。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是的，所以我覺得積極的備戰也是我們很重要的一個方針。今天有一個狀況，我想我們一起來探討備戰相關的事後檢討。今天假設蘇澳港、高雄港、淡水港突然被解放軍的炸彈襲擊，造成蘇澳300人受傷，高雄1,000人受傷，淡水500人受傷，我想請問一下院長，對於這些傷者，我們在傷後的後送機制，包括如何後送、救治、到哪幾間醫院、如何救治以及後送的各間醫院生理食鹽水輸出液是否足夠調用來使用、可供開刀使用的人數，以及沖洗傷口、灌洗之使用者大概有幾人？我們這些機制有沒有去建立？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。這個完全是一個假設性的問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是站在政府的立場，我們就是告訴人民，政府是有準備的，而且不只是政府，民間有很多相關團體也在做這種大規模傷害之後，包括天災地變之後的一些救助工作，這個平常在整備過程當中都有一些操演跟一些預備。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝！我想我們在探討這個問題，雖然只是假設，但是我們希望目的是引導政府能夠去重視，如果災禍發生以後，我們大量的傷患該如何救治的一個問題。但是我想問部長，部長，您是醫師，您也是兩屆全聯會的理事長，也是立法委員，經驗豐富。我想請問你幾個問題，生理食鹽水如果在沒有的情況之下，我們可以開刀嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有生理食鹽水沒辦法開刀。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒有辦法開刀啦！那生理食鹽水最重要的兩個作用──補充電解質，以及最重要的是沖洗傷口，對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是現在坊間生理食鹽水跟以往的缺藥，我個人認為不太一樣，最大的情況不同是，它是開刀手術必備的一個藥品，而且是戰備重要的一個藥品，面臨現在中共一直不斷地擾臺，我們擔心有可能擦槍走火，所以以目前國內生產的生理食鹽水，量已經不夠國內使用，我們還要補上進口量，才能夠因應整個國內的使用，但是一旦發生了戰爭，進口生理食鹽水進得來嗎？部長，您覺得進得來嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們這個都有預防，這一次的專案進口是因為臨時永豐……因為它占的比例太多，所以除了在專案進口以外，我們已經輔導且鼓勵國內的廠商，我們給它比較合理的價碼，來自產相關的生理食鹽水。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個我們事後再檢討，但是我要講的是，如果發生戰爭，我想沒辦法進口。我們先來探討幾個問題，為什麼不將專案進口的價格82元同樣給付國內生產來製造？我們有所謂的疫情國家隊，藥品、快篩以及之前還有新型冠狀病毒的感染用藥──羥氯奎寧都有所謂的國家隊，那為什麼現在不行？我們為什麼沒有培植國內的廠商繼續努力？"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個問題雖然很重要，但我們很快的就可以從進口、從國內原來的量能來完整這樣的一個需求……"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我還是要講，我們不希望每次都用專案進口，我們應該培植自己相關的廠商，未來能夠因應……"],["邱部長泰源：我想只要有合理的價錢……"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，你可以認同我這樣的說法嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：合理的價錢應該廠商就會做啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們一起來讓我們的國內廠商有這個能力。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長剛剛有說明，我們希望協調國內合格的廠商，能夠增加它的供貨量。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：同時對這種大包裝的輸液，也能夠儘快地恢復生產，提供給醫療機構來使用。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們不希望這是超思案的一個翻版，就像有的醫師在講，難道危機就是商機嗎？今天它是戰備藥品，我想以往蔡英文總統的態度很明顯，對於戰備、對於我們必須的這種急用藥品，國內應該要有自己生產的能力啊！為什麼現在量會不夠？本席不是危言聳聽，我不是要去讓整個社會恐慌，我是要提醒這個藥不是眾多藥品缺少的其中一小環，它是戰備用藥，它所戰備的存在價值，在戰爭時我們認為是沒辦法進口的。而且千萬不要看它這樣子，我們國內本身就有許多藥廠在製造，為什麼平時不去輔導？健保價給付的比一瓶可樂還便宜啊！對，它的原物料很便宜，鹽和水而已，但是整個製作的過程是非常嚴謹的、是無菌的狀況，而且它是塑料包裝，所以還要去人工檢查異物，這樣子嚴謹的一個過程當中，竟然比不上一瓶可樂的價格。","針對這樣的事情，我們應該請院長做以下的交代及檢討，您聽聽看。所有戰備、儲備的藥品品項中，是否有類似像永豐這樣子寡占市場的一個狀況，我們應該去盤點，我們應該需要有所對應的因應政策，到底是不是像邱部長剛剛所說的，是短期之內發生的嗎？這明明就是6個月前，我們去稽查瞭解它沒有符合規定才強制關廠，沒有符合GMP嘛！","第二個，我國原料藥所用的大部分都來自進口，其中4成來自大陸，戰備藥品它不是製劑，而是其原料在臺灣儲備是否充足，我們有沒有盤點？部長有盤點嗎？戰爭時這些進口東西是進不來的，即使我們有工廠，也無可奈何啊！所以以上兩點，院長，您可不可以跟我回應，你們是不是盤點一下，能不能在兩個月內、一個月內給我一個回應？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，包括這次永豐這家廠商占據這麼大的量，但在製程過程中發生了問題，造成整個供需失調，這個是很活生生的經驗。我想衛福部部長也清楚，520之後我們上來，我第一次請衛福部來跟我報告的就是這個事情，我一路緊追，這個一定要瞭解。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你們有資料嗎？後續提供給我，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：接下來我要跟院長談論此次進口有三大嚴重的缺失，是三無──無法源依據、沒有PMF的核備函，還有出狀況無理賠，這個狀況你們有掌握嗎？院長，臺灣是民主國家，所有行政單位依法行政，輸液專案進口若依法，法源依據是什麼？可以跟我分享一下嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：緊急專案進口我們從5月底就開始啟動。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以又是用緊急專案？"],["邱部長泰源：應該是緊急專案，如果需要……這個應該是依法，沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：依法沒有問題？你引用的是哪一個法？藥事法？第幾條？可以跟我分享嗎？就本席所瞭解無法源依據。請問院長，如果公布無法源依據的行政命令可以成立嗎？我認為衛福部有帶頭違法的可能性。現在只要衛福部的官員認定緊急需要就馬上視法為無物嗎？沒有法源依據，輸入沒有藥品許可證的藥品，那麼這些藥品有可能是禁藥，這是藥事法第二條第二項規定的。請問院長，如果是禁藥要怎麼處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，進口的過程當中，我們從5月底啟動，一直到6月12號第一批輸液才進來，這當中就對進口的國外廠商進行篩檢跟合格的認定。"],["羅委員廷瑋：待會兒我們越談越深，你聽聽看。如果未依法行政，所有核章的政府官員是不是應該主動送檢調？是不是監察院應該看看有沒有圖利的問題？還是需要本席協助呢？我們目前沒有PMF的核備函，部長，是嗎？有沒有核備函？目前核准專案輸入生理食鹽水輸注液，依據衛福部的回函摘要如下：一、沒有我國藥品的許可證。二、皆屬國際會員國。本席想用法規面請教院長，我們看一下問題，是PTT的第四個，回文說核准專案輸入的大包生理食鹽水皆屬國際組織的會員國。院長，越南哪時候是PIC/S的會員國？是會員國嗎？部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：進口的時候我們是不是有經過詳實的檢驗、查證？"],["邱部長泰源：越南這個應該是大塚的，大塚在那邊設廠。"],["羅委員廷瑋：大塚的？所以呢？你的回函告訴我全部都是會員國，越南明明就不是會員國，它是EU GMP，你怎麼用回函這樣回我？第二，根據國外藥廠工廠資料準備須知，不是會員國的藥廠一律採國外實地查廠。有沒有去查廠？部長，我認為沒有，短期之內你要進口，你沒查廠嘛！再來，根據藥事法第五十七條，你沒有核備函。有沒有核備函？哇！鴉雀無聲。院長、部長，我都有索資，可是你們沒有給我任何資料，我可以大膽篤定你沒有核備函，你沒有許可證。院長不要忘記，新聞報導連日本極東製藥的正露丸都作假騙日本政府30年，由出口國家自行認定。衛福部連做個樣子要求廠商送資料都沒有就敢相信！輸液出狀況，藥害基金沒有賠，因為你沒有許可證，我今天使用這一批輸注液，萬一出了問題怎麼辦？這是要在無菌的狀況下，是要給手術的人使用。部長，我講這些……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，食藥署還有負責的同仁一定非常嚴謹，在合法……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是藥害基金告訴我，沒有許可證是不理賠的，這就是問題之所在。"],["邱部長泰源：我們整個瞭解以後再跟委員說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，問題越來越嚴重。今天傷口或是手術要使用，這些可能都會有……包括輸注液裡面如果有熱源，受感染的危險性很高。今天如果徒增不必要的傷害，院長，我們該怎麼應對？後續要怎麼救濟？既然論述是對的，食藥署怎麼可以准沒有許可證、沒有查廠、沒有PMF核備函的輸液進口？到時候如果有人受傷害，後續要求償，我想請問一下，沒有許可證，藥害基金不賠償的情況之下，是要國賠，還是核准專案進口的公務員理賠？請回答我。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，不管是專案進口或製造，我們在藥事法上都有一些特別措施的規定。本件我說從5月底到6月12號將近半個多月的時間當中，我們一直在催，包括衛福部、食藥署來的報告，一個是配合進口的船期，一個是配合尋找合格的廠商，能夠提供這些資料，在這個過程當中，我會請衛福部再詳細的瞭解，當初是用什麼樣的方式跟程序去尋找這些貨源。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我想這件事不要開玩笑……"],["邱部長泰源：應該是要符合藥事法……"],["羅委員廷瑋：三無啊！今天我所舉出來的東西三無啊！沒有法源依據真的是非常非常的重要，沒有許可函、核備函，什麼都沒有！我想這個問題後續我們再繼續來檢討。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，我所提出的問題，今天我們不是吹毛求疵，我們在幫政府想後續會遇到的因應問題，你可以認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：接下來我想請問下一個問題，一直以來癌症都位於十大死因之首，並且已經蟬聯十大死因之首41年了，我想每一個人都有可能罹癌，現在我們的政府，尤其賴清德總統說，我們要面對癌症與癌症基金相關的措施，我想立意良善，我們一起來面對。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是肺癌現在為癌症死因之首，我們希望能夠降低肺癌篩檢的年齡，請問肺癌篩檢的年齡能不能改成男性五十歲以上、女性四十五歲以上，不用條件？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，謝謝你關心肺癌，肺癌在我們目前的規範之下的確找出了相當有意義的一些陽性，我想這也拯救了一個人的生命和他的家庭。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，部長，你可不可以直接回答我？"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在請專家在研究，看怎麼樣來擴大……"],["羅委員廷瑋：希望能夠降低肺癌篩檢的年齡條件，再來就是男性五十歲以上、女性四十五歲以上，符合家族史、抽菸史，每兩年一次LDCT的檢查，我想這部分是我們的訴求，包括乳癌也是，我們都希望能夠降低年齡層。","再來我要跟大家談五個癌症，除了肺癌、乳癌以外，另外還有三個癌症──子宮頸癌、大腸癌、口腔癌，這些癌症的篩檢年齡下降，請問目前規劃得如何？什麼時候辦理？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：現在都在研議當中。"],["羅委員廷瑋：期程表有沒有出來？什麼時候辦理這些癌症篩檢年齡下降的相關期程表？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，現在都一直在研議，國民健康署一直在研議擴大篩檢年齡下降的範圍。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望有更明確的數字出來。另外公費癌症篩檢新增胃癌是否如期在10月上路？這些後續資料，你再提供給我，我希望能夠有更縝密的……"],["邱部長泰源：好，這我們的確討論過。"],["羅委員廷瑋：拖一天就多一分我們國人罹癌的可能性，造成很不必要的傷害，我們任何人都不希望，希望衛福部要重視這件事情。"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們有在討論，再跟委員報告。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我覺得對於這種預防性的檢查行為，在國家能力可及的範圍內，都應該全面的檢討。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們一起來加油。所以你可以認同我的說法，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。","陳培瑜及林月琴委員之質詢，均以書面提出，請行政院以書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員陳培瑜書面質詢：","今年為兒少公約施行法制定十周年，在七月二日本席於院會教育文化組織質詢中，初步詢問卓榮泰院長有關行政院兒少權法修正草案進度時，卓院長略以目前行政院有關兒少權法之修法討論將側重「疏忽照顧、身體精神暴力、性剝削等權益維護」等面向，並準備啟動第二階段研商機制作為回應。","然查目前兒少權法之施行，非僅就上述面向有修正之必要，攸關兒少權益之裁罰對象公告、裁罰程序中司法與社政調查之競合問題，均在實務上已造成諸多兒少保護上之空窗或盲區。以本席最近一年與衛福部、教育部、法務部針對兒少權法通報裁罰機制改善問題，以及縣市政府漏填、下架裁罰資訊等狀況，均可見兒少權法之通盤檢討修正確有其必要。","同時，有關更進步之兒少保護機制，如兒少工作證等經諸多委員於院會共同倡議之設計，亦須透過修法方能使相關規畫得以落實並輔以罰則。鑑此，請行政院具體回應下列議題：","一、兒少權法修正之預估期程，以及預計經行政院院會審議送入立法院之時間點。","二、除前述卓院長回應部分外，院版兒少權法納入如兒少工作證、裁罰通報機制與司法系統之資訊對接等面向之可行性。","三、針對近期新竹營隊負責人性侵學員卻能持續招生，暴露出現行社政與教育法規中針對營隊與社區運動俱樂部存在有管制盲點，以及現有之兒少權法裁罰系統、不適任教師系統僅限於行政機關、機構及學校勾稽查詢，無法提供家長查詢之狀況，行政院之具體應對措施。"],["委員林月琴書面質詢：","質詢一：護理師工資提升，要政府直接給付（指定用途，代收代付）才有效","1.護理師的工資較在醫療保健整體而言偏低，很需要直接調高薪資或發給津貼來提高收入。","2.但是，長期以來護理師薪資幾乎都由政府在主導調薪，包括夜班獎勵、繁重加給，都是由衛福部在主導。甚至104年起推動護病比與健保支付連動，實施的結果也是降低護病比有效，護理師加薪無效（註1）。","3.數據顯示，過去護理人員的薪資提升的原因比較是因為受到基本工資調漲的影響而連動，透過健保支付去鼓勵調薪的效果有限（註2）。","註：","1.自104年推動：護病比與健保支付連動，要降低護病比，並提升護理人員薪資。但104年至107年護理人員的薪資，沒有大幅度的調升。","2.108年增加挹注10億，其中6.3億用作為調整護病比的獎勵；3.7億用來補助病房護理費，自108年至113年薪資確有成長趨勢，但薪資調升的理由極可能是因為基本工資調漲造成院方的壓力。","1.原因出在，醫院收入跟支付是兩個不相關的程序。所以政府要幫護理人員加薪的錢若沒有指定用途，或是規定代收代付，便沒辦法保證護理人員真的收到（註3）。","2.因為這個原因，像是夜班鼓勵金、繁重加給，就會是相對有效的加薪方式。請衛福部持續推動。","3.另外，本席多次依據社工、長照人員加薪的經驗提出：從政府要支付給醫院的錢裡面，劃出一定比例，特定用來支付醫事人員的薪資，這個作法，請衛福部採用。","註：","3.醫院的收入大致來自醫療勞務收入（免稅）與非醫療勞務收入（營業稅）。","(1)醫療勞務收入，包括：所有因醫療行為的收入。收入來源有三個：健保支付收入、健保部分負擔收入（含掛號費）、自費收入。","(2)非醫療勞務收入，包括：租金收入（房舍、攤商）、醫療周邊商品收入（血壓計、尿布、衛生棉等一切商品）。","(3)轉投資收入不計入醫院的非醫療勞務收入，因為在稅務上會成立另一間公司，為獨立的事業單位。","所有的收入進入財務大水缸，再依用途自水缸支出。其項目有：","(1)人力成本支出：薪資報酬。","(2)營運成本：各項營運支出。","(3)稅務支出：營業稅。","質詢二：醫院自費收入應受管理，並劃定比例設為醫事人員薪資支出","1.現行醫院的自費項目幾乎不被管理，心律不整開刀健保支付19萬，自費21萬；攝護腺肥大開刀健保支付9萬，自費16萬；白內障開刀健保支付3萬，自費3萬。自費是一塊很大的收益，這個全數利益歸法人所有。這是不合理的，應該呈現在薪資上與所有的醫事人員共享。","2.因此，醫院自費收入應列入管理，設定點值並將30%用為醫事人員薪資給付，請衛福部採用。","質詢三、公立醫院、校護之公務人員專業加給要合理","1.為「完善公立醫療機構及公立學校各類醫事人員合理之專業加給」事，本席前於3月29日假本院會議事召集行政院人事行政總處、衛生福利部醫事司、銓敘部銓審司與各大醫事團體全國聯合會召開協調會。會中達成協議：衛生福利部參酌人事行政總處意見先行蒐集醫事人員團體之意見，擬定審酌意見，於3個月內提報送行政院，並請行政院開啟增加專業加給之預算編列作業（包括「其他專業技術人員」與「公立醫院、公立學校」、以及「各類醫事人員」加給之差異並辦理）。","2.衛生福利部於6月7日完成前述呈報　大院之作業，今等待人事行政總處對民間團體作出善意的具體回應。請　大院督導該處編列預算自2025年起開始調整（註4）。","註：","4.加給數額合理調整須顧及兩個層面：","(1)公立醫院與校護應一致。","(2)包括公立醫院與校護之醫事人員，加給數額要整體提升；並拉近與其他公務人員職類之差距，逐步達到一致。","質詢四：凱凱案後續家外兒虐現行政策檢討","1.今年三月發生舉國震驚保母虐童致死案，也讓全國國人關注保母照顧品質如何把關。我身為保母種子教師，我相信絕大部分保母都是具備愛心、信心、耐心，但的確會有一些個案必須透過政策端防範於未然。","2.我要求衛福部針對保母、訪視訓練員訓練端，師資、課程必須要重新檢討，包含：師資應該要具備專業資格，此外教材針對兒虐樣態應該要有定期更新，提供最新兒虐情況讓保母、訪視員可以清楚辨認。另外，保母課程與托嬰中心托育人員課程內容應分開上課，因為保母跟機構式的照顧不同；還有保母在職訓練每三年應調整課程大綱，而不是重複修習前三年已上過的課程內容，例如「照顧安全」總是安排基本救命術或消防逃生等課程，在在缺乏兒虐知能或危機處理能力。","3.訪視員功能是抓出違法保母，除了兒虐，還有許多包含超收、空間環境不符合規定等，這些除了教材提供，更重要必須透過有經驗、有系統傳承，才能達到訪視員訪視效果。","4.目前各縣市訪視成果後處置標準不一，有記點、警告等，但如何真正遏止違法保母執業，應該要有統一標準，累犯如何直接拔除資格或是停業，應該中央要有統一規範。","質詢五：托嬰中心品質改善、提升勞動條件","1.近期衛福部推動托育師生比要降為1：4，但搭配托育專法仍然未見行政院版本，令人憂心是否只是空談，此外，未來師生比從1：5降為1：4，衛福部把關機制為何？","2.政府雖然有提供準公共化托嬰中心優化獎助，但本辦近期收到托育人員陳情，業者未將從政府端收到優化補助反映在托育人員薪資與獎補助，請中央務必針對獎補助預算進行查核，除了資料查核並增加實地考核，避免不肖業者私吞，罔顧第一線托育人員權益。","3.托嬰中心設施仍有許多地方不符合相關安全規範，有些事既有校舍改建，並沒有達到合格標準就匆匆營業，針對未來衛福部編列硬體改善預算，應先進行全面盤點不合格場所，並提出階段性改善計劃，預算逐一編列到位並配合專業人員檢查改善後成果，以利達到提供嬰幼兒、托育人員安全之環境。"],["主席：下一位請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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院長解放軍戰機最近四面環台的天數跟次數是越來越高我們六月還為了解放軍海軍曾經擔任過廷長的男子駕駛小艇駛入到淡水河口政府也承認反應過慢為時已晚院長兩岸關係是越演越烈越來越緊張今天我想我們積極的要備戰我們也努力的避戰我想這是政府應該有的態度對吧"},{"start":58.015,"end":75.069,"text":"我們一向認為備戰才能避戰,能戰才能止戰。是的,所以我覺得積極的備戰也是我們很重要的一個方針。今天我有一個狀況,我想我們一起來探討備戰相關事後的一個檢討。今天假設蘇澳港、高雄港、淡水港突然被解放軍炸彈襲擊。"},{"start":76.59,"end":101.926,"text":"那造成的蘇澳呢300人受傷那高雄1000人受傷淡水500人受傷我想請問一下院長這些傷者我們在傷後的一個後送機制包括如何後送救治到哪幾間醫院如何救治以及後送的各間醫院生理實驗水素注意是否足夠調用來使用可供開刀的使用的人數"},{"start":102.907,"end":109.535,"text":"以及沖洗傷口盥洗之使用者大概有幾人,我們這些機制有沒有去建立?"},{"start":111.202,"end":133.14,"text":"謝謝委員 這個完全是一個假設性的問題但是坐在政府的立場我們就是告訴人民說政府是有準備的而且不只是政府民間有很多的相關的團體他們也在做這種大規模傷害之後包括天災地變之後的一些救助的工作那這個都平常在準備過程當中都有一些操演跟一些預備"},{"start":133.8,"end":159.47,"text":"好 謝謝我想我們在探討這個問題雖然只是假設但是我們希望目的是引導我們的政府能夠去重視我們如果災後發生以後我們大量的傷患該如何救治的一個問題但是我想問部長部長您是醫師您也是全聯會的兩屆的一個全聯會理事長也是立法委員我想經驗豐富我想請問你幾個問題生理食鹽水如果在沒有的情況之下我們可以開刀嗎?"},{"start":160.626,"end":180.837,"text":"沒有生理食鹽水沒辦法開刀沒辦法開刀啦齁那生理食鹽水最重要的兩個作用我想補充電解質以及最重要就是沖洗傷口對吧但是呢現在坊間啦我們生理食鹽水跟以往的缺藥我個人認為不太一樣最大的情況不同是它是開刀手術必備的一個藥品而且是"},{"start":181.237,"end":181.957,"text":"部長,您覺得進得來嗎?"},{"start":206.431,"end":206.511,"text":"﹚董事長"},{"start":222.074,"end":250.519,"text":"合理的價碼來自己產相關的生理食塩水這個是我們事後再檢討啦但是我要講的是如果發生戰爭我想沒辦法進口啦那我們先來探討幾個問題為什麼不將專案進口的價格82元同樣擠附國內生產來製造我們有所謂的疫情國家隊嘛藥品、快篩以及之前還有新型冠狀病毒的感染用藥我們的搶滅、奎寧都有所謂的國家隊那為什麼現在不行"},{"start":252.329,"end":252.669,"text":"部長我還是要講齁"},{"start":272.515,"end":282.028,"text":"我們不希望每次都用專案進口,我們應該培植自己的相關的廠商,未來能夠...我想只要有合理的價錢應該廠商就會做啦。我們一起來讓我們的國內廠商有這個能力。我們希望協調國內合格的廠商,能夠增加他的供貨量。"},{"start":290.078,"end":304.394,"text":"同時對這種大包裝的輸液也能夠盡快的恢復生產提供給疫苗機構來使用我們不希望這是超思案的一個翻版我想就像有的醫師在講難道危機就是商機嗎那今天他是戰備藥品"},{"start":305.996,"end":329.317,"text":"我想以往蔡英文總統所說的一個態度很明顯對於戰備對於我們必須的這種急用藥品我們國內應該要有自己生產的一個能力那為什麼現在量會不夠本席不是危言聳聽我不是要去讓整個社會恐慌我是要提醒這個藥它不是眾多藥品缺少的其中一小環它是戰備用藥它所戰備的存在價值戰爭時我們認為是沒辦法進口的"},{"start":333.28,"end":357.41,"text":"而且千萬不要看他這樣子啊我國內本身就有許多藥廠在製造為什麼平時不去輔導健保價給付的比一瓶可樂還便宜啊對他的原物料很便宜鹽和水而已但是整個製作的過程是非常嚴謹的是無菌的狀況而且他是塑料包裝所以還要去人工檢查異物這樣子嚴謹的一個過程當中我想竟然比不上一瓶可樂的價格"},{"start":358.59,"end":381.086,"text":"我想針對這樣的事情我們應該請院長做以下的交代以及做檢討您聽聽看所有戰備儲備的一個藥品品項中是否有類似像永豐這樣子寡占市場的一個狀況我們應該去盤點我們應該需要有所對應的因應政策到底是不是像邱部長剛剛所說的是短期之內發生的嗎"},{"start":382.006,"end":399.997,"text":"這明明就是6個月前我們去稽查瞭解他沒有符合規定才強制官場沒有符合GMP嗎?第二個我國原料藥所用的大部分都來自進口其中4成來自大陸戰備藥品他不是自製捏"},{"start":401.098,"end":417.915,"text":"原本而是其原料在臺灣儲備是否充足我們有沒有盤點?部長有盤點嗎?戰爭時這些進口東西是進不來的那即使我們有工廠也無可奈何啊所以以上兩點院長您可不可以跟我回應我們是不是盤點一下能不能在兩個月內一個月內給我一個回應"},{"start":419.861,"end":422.884,"text":"接下來我要跟院長談論此次進口有三大嚴重的一個缺失。三無"},{"start":448.504,"end":466.375,"text":"無法源依據沒有PMF的核備函還有出狀況無理賠這狀況你們有掌握嗎?院長台灣是民主國家我們所有行政單位依法行政請問蘇義專案進口我們的依法法源依據是什麼?可以跟我分享一下嗎?請說緊急的專案進口我們從5月底就開始啟動了"},{"start":470.399,"end":488.371,"text":"所以又是用緊急專案?應該這個緊急專案如果需要,這個應該是依法的沒有問題啊。依法沒有問題?你引用的是哪一個法?要事法?第幾條?可以跟我分享嗎?就本席所了解,無法源依據。"},{"start":490.065,"end":510.231,"text":"請問院長如果公布無法源依據的行政命令可以成立嗎?我認為衛福部有帶頭違法的可能性所以現在是只要衛福部官員認定我緊急需要我就馬上釋法為無誤嗎?沒有法源依據所有藥品許可證藥品輸入那麼這些藥品有可能就是禁藥這是藥事法第二條第二項規定的"},{"start":512.051,"end":522.74,"text":"請問院長如果是經邀怎麼處理?不會我覺得這個進口的過程當中我們從5月底啟動一直到6月12號第一批的輸入才進來這當中就對這個進口的國外廠商有進過一些篩檢"},{"start":528.705,"end":545.405,"text":"待會我們越談越深喔,你聽聽看,如果為依法行政所有合章的政府官員,我們是不是應該主動送檢調,是不是監察院應該要看看有沒有所圖利的問題,還是需要本席來協助呢?我們目前沒有PMF何備函,部長,是嗎?有沒有何備函?"},{"start":547.659,"end":576.18,"text":"目前核准專案輸入生理食鹽水輸入注意依據衛福部的回函摘要如下一、沒有我國藥品的許可證二、接屬國際會員國本席就想用法規面請教院長我們看一下問題PTT第4個回文說核准專案輸入的大包生理食鹽水接屬國際組織的會員國院長越南哪時候是PASS的那個會員國"},{"start":579.028,"end":594.485,"text":"是會員國嗎?部長。越南這個是大總的。大總的,所以呢你的回函是告訴我全部都會員國啊。越南明明就不是會員國,它是EU GMP捏。"},{"start":598.254,"end":619.939,"text":"那你怎麼回函這樣回我第二根據國外藥廠的工廠資料準備須知啊不是會員國的藥廠一律採國外實地茶廠有沒有去茶廠部長我認為沒有短期之內你要進口你沒茶廠嗎再來根據藥食法第57條你沒有核備函有沒有核備函哇鴨雀無聲啊院長部長"},{"start":628.305,"end":649.839,"text":"我都有所知啊沒有給我任何的資料我可以大膽的篤定你沒有核備函你沒有許可證院長不要忘記連日本日本吉東製藥的證錄完新聞報導做假騙日本政府30年由出口國家自行認定衛福部連做個樣子要求廠商送個資料都沒有你就敢相信"},{"start":651.275,"end":664.731,"text":"蘇易出狀況藥害基金沒有賠因為你沒有許可證阿我今天使用這一批蘇助益萬一我出了問題這是要無菌的狀況下這個是要給手術的人使用"},{"start":666.684,"end":669.348,"text":"部長,我講之前的問題...但是藥害基金告訴我沒有許可證是不理賠的喔,這就是問題所在。"},{"start":684.527,"end":712.122,"text":"問題越來越嚴重今天傷口或者是要做手術使用這些有可能都會有整個裡面包括輸注液裡面如果有熱源他會顯示讓整個在受感染的一個危險性很高所以今天如果塗針的不必要的傷害院長我們該怎麼去應對後續要怎麼救濟既然論述是對的食藥署怎麼可以准沒有許可證沒有茶場沒有PMF的核准核備含就可以進口"},{"start":713.749,"end":737.669,"text":"那到時候如果今天有人受了傷害後續要求償我想詢問一下沒有許可證要害基金不賠償的情況之下是要國賠還是核准專案進口的公務員來理賠請回答我報告委員這個不管是專案的進口或是製造專案的進口或製藥製造我們在醫藥事法上面都有一些特別的這個措施的規定那本件"},{"start":738.189,"end":758.503,"text":"我說從5月底到6月12號這個將近半個多月的時間當中我們一直在吹包括衛福部包括食藥署來的報告就是一個是配合進口的傳奇一個就是配合尋找合格的廠商能夠提供這些資料那這個過程當中我請衛福部再詳細的了解當初用什麼樣的方式跟程序去尋找這些貨源"},{"start":759.344,"end":759.885,"text":"接下來我想請問下一個問題"},{"start":788.732,"end":800.674,"text":"我們要求癌症篩檢一直以來十大死因癌症是十大死因之首癌症已經纏連十大死因41年我想每一個人都有可能罹癌"},{"start":801.92,"end":802.1,"text":"部長 報告委員"},{"start":831.22,"end":832.501,"text":"肺癌能夠年齡下降篩檢的一個條件"},{"start":857.143,"end":880.512,"text":"再來就是所謂的男性50歲以下女性45歲以下符合家族史抽菸史每兩年一次LDCT的檢查我想這個部分是我們的訴求包括乳癌也是我們都希望能夠年齡層下降再來我要跟大家談我們談的肺癌跟乳癌五個癌症以外另外三個癌子宮頸癌大腸癌口腔癌篩檢年齡下降請問目前規劃如何什麼時候辦理"},{"start":882.762,"end":885.663,"text":"公費癌症篩檢新增胃癌是否如期10月上路?胃癌?對公費癌症篩檢胃癌"},{"start":913.561,"end":915.763,"text":"好,我們一起來加油,所以你可以認同我的說法,是嗎?"},{"start":944.423,"end":953.196,"text":"好,謝謝羅委員陳培宇及林月琴委員"}]}},{"id":"154583","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154583","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb6187893cd26113a55e2a09fb1100d58f4be9d3d28c55f1f245b4db96ec05ca036185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"14:46:54 - 15:02:38","影片長度":"00:15:44","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T14:46:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T15:02:38+08:00","duration":944,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":42,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（14時46分）主席，請卓院長，還有勞動部何部長。"],["主席：請卓院長、何部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：院長好、部長好。臺灣勞工為臺灣發展打下很重要的基礎，也付出最多，所以對於勞工權益的保障是政府最重要的基本責任。大家都談到勞保，記得在馬英九擔任總統，陳冲擔任行政院長的時候，我是第一個針對勞保財務精算報告提出質詢的，而且有兩項重要建議，好讓勞工安心，讓勞工老年之後，在生活上有勞保的基本保障。所以我當時要求：第一，政府撥補；第二，政府、國家負最終支付責任。經過多年努力，謝謝蘇貞昌院長在2020年踏出重要的第一步，撥補了200億；2021年撥補220億；2022年300億；2023年450億，再加300億的特別預算，到今年已經撥補到1,200億。我首先要請教院長，針對政府的撥補，明年所編的預算是不是還會再增加？會維持到1,200億以上嗎？請說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：政府負最終支付責任，這是政府已經持續下來對勞工的承諾，也是對臺灣社會安定的承諾。現在明年度的總預算已經進到最後的整理階段，一定會在這個項目上衡量政府的財政，根據實際需要來做……"],["李委員昆澤：會不會維持在1,200億以上？會不會增加？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前至少維持跟過去一樣的水準。"],["李委員昆澤：謝謝院長的承諾。第二，對於最終支付責任或政府撥補，當然政府已經連續五年撥補，而勞工對於政府的相關作為認為，對於勞保的撥補以及國家負最終支付責任有實質做到，但勞工也希望政府對於勞保的撥補以及國家負最終支付責任要明文入法，所以勞保條例第六十九條必須明文加入政府撥補以及國家負最終支付責任。","我們看到國民年金法第四十九條以及公務人員退休撫卹管理條例第八條，對於相關的政府撥補或者是國家最終支付責任都有明文入法，這個是我們接下來要推動的，這是第二階段，要明文入法。第三階段，最重要的，就是針對勞保年金的改革必須更進一步地推出長期的規劃。","過去對於勞保年金的改革討論不出一個版本，或者是勞工無法接受，主要有三大原因，第一是過去政府沒有撥補；第二是國家沒有最終支付的責任；第三是過去所討論出來的版本可能都是多繳、少領，而且要晚一點領，這種版本勞工是無法接受的。所以我在這邊要提醒何部長，第一步的實質政府撥補跟國家最終支付責任，做到了；第二步就是相關的明文入法，勞保條例要將政府撥補跟國家最終支付責任明文入法；第三步就是針對相關的勞保改革必須長期的跟產官學進行更進一步的討論，提出共識的版本，這是很重要的工作。","另外，針對相關的職災部分，院長，我們2023年職災加上職業病、職場染疫，加起來總共有9萬多件，院長，這很嚴重耶，職業災害占了4萬7,000件，職業病跟職場染疫現在也納入職業災害裡面，所以它也有4萬3,000件，加起來就9萬件。2022年是7萬件，2023相較於2022增加了2萬件，多了2萬件！我們來看2023年的部分，因為職業災害失能的勞工朋友達到1,382人，不幸死亡的人數達到625人，部長，我要提醒你，在這625人中，單純職業災害（扣除職業病以及職場染疫）的就有599人。我再提醒部長，如果我們針對2023跟2022再來做個比較，2023比2022在職業傷害方面多出了1,351人，死亡人數增加了83人，對於有效地降低職災保護我們勞工，部長有什麼具體作為？我們職業災害的受傷人數增加、職業災害的死亡人數增加，這對勞工權益的保障是一個嚴重的警訊。請說明。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。剛剛您提到職災給付件數會增加，基本上是有COVID-19的因素啦，因為這部分增加了2萬多……"],["李委員昆澤：所以我說加上職業病跟職場染疫。"],["何部長佩珊：對，可是我要跟您報告，現在因應這個，確實我們職災發生率並沒有有效的降低，這是個嚴重的問題，針對這個，我們也準備要修正職業安全衛生法，為什麼呢？因為第一個，在您看到的工安意外內，很多的業主跟施作，譬如施工廠之間並沒有負連帶責任，他們彼此間常常會以承攬關係來規避，這是一個嚴重的問題，也造成業主常常把責任轉嫁給下游的發包商，我們必須在這部分把責任讓它能夠統一起來。"],["李委員昆澤：部長！部長，重點在於如何有效地降低職災啦！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我們一年有1,382位勞工失能，這很嚴重耶！我們有625位勞工失去生命，這很嚴重耶！"],["何部長佩珊：是，這個……"],["李委員昆澤：每一位勞工都像是我們家人一般，他們為臺灣的經濟發展付出最大的心力，勞工的權益必須要具體的保障。我們看看相關的勞工職業災害統計，有50%都是營造業啦！"],["何部長佩珊：對，沒錯。"],["李委員昆澤：然後有43%左右都是墜落，那都是非常嚴重的。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["李委員昆澤：勞動部也提出了營造業墜落打擊年。"],["何部長佩珊：今年。"],["李委員昆澤：你們有什麼具體的作法，請講一下。"],["何部長佩珊：我們今年就是……最近我們甚至要找營造同業公會，還有包括這些業主，我們必須跟他們面對面嚴肅地談這個問題，像今年這個月下旬……"],["李委員昆澤：具體的作法呢？會不會提高相關的工安裁罰金額？"],["何部長佩珊：是，會，我剛剛提到的職業安全衛生法也會提高相關的裁罰金額，現在只有3萬到30萬，而且裁罰金額都沒有公布，這是要檢討的，我們準備要把它大幅提高，因為這個部分也不能讓業主心存僥倖，尤其我們在營造業趕工的過程裡面，大家常常輕忽了工地安全本身這樣一個連帶責任的問題，這部分我們必須確實檢討。"],["李委員昆澤：他們違反的大部分都是職業安全衛生法第六條，更應該具體的提出一些督促、管理這樣的作為，所以我一直要請教何部長，你剛就任，我們對於降低職業災害到底有什麼具體的作法？你有什麼目標？"],["何部長佩珊：剛剛提到修法是一個方向，我們現在也新成立了……"],["李委員昆澤：在修法之前，你有什麼具體的措施嗎？相關的行政作為嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：今年我們其實就是把勞檢的場次都提高，包括對各種工地，包括營造業的，包括各種製造業的，他們有在施工的，其實這個場次都有提高。"],["李委員昆澤：我們提到勞檢，部長你也提到勞檢，我們1年勞檢的場次大概是28萬場次，如果以初檢來說，就有11萬場次，11萬場次的初檢，它的違規是達到12萬次以上，所以去初檢大概都有問題，幾乎是百分之百以上，當然我們在相關的複檢這些違規的場次裡面，勞動部所提供的資料，號稱它的改善率達到92%，有這麼厲害嗎？請你說明一下。"],["何部長佩珊：我想這個確實該檢討，因為如果對照委員所感受到的、我們大家所感受到的，確實這個不盡符合事實，因為我剛上任，我準備我也要求我們職安署對這個問題要進行全面的檢討，因為包含初檢跟複檢之間，它會有一個時間差，初檢跟複檢之間還有包括我們對停工範圍的定義，其實那個有很多檢討的空間。"],["李委員昆澤：這個部分我倒是要肯定一下勞動部，我們對於勞檢的場次，這樣的增加是更能夠具體的來保障勞工的職場安全，但是相關這些對於業者的督促以及相關的改善，必須有更進一步的作為來提升，請說明一下。"],["何部長佩珊：是，就是另一方面，除了我們增加勞檢、修職業安全衛生法，委員，就是說勞檢要確實化跟修職業安全衛生法也很有關係，因為我們目前職業安全衛生法的某些規範並沒有那麼的明確化，所以導致我們在勞檢進行裁罰的時候其實也不夠具體，這個是有互相連帶關係，所以希望我們能在最快的時間內提出職安衛的修法，也能夠獲得委員的支持。"],["李委員昆澤：這個必須要有更具體的作為。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，我再請教你關於熱危害的議題，院長、部長，這幾天都非常熱，我們好像住在蒸籠裡面，這就是因為極端氣候這樣的一個肆虐跟趨勢，勞工朋友在這麼炎熱的天氣下工作，相關的熱危害以及對身體所造成的衝擊，它的傷害性非常的大。在6月26號郵局的勞工、辛苦的郵差，就有一位在送信的過程裡面中暑昏倒，我們對於熱危害，部長，你有什麼具體的想法？部長請說明。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，熱危害確實也是當前大家都在注意的一個大問題，我們現在有進行夏季高溫勞檢，也是一樣有勞檢，可是一樣的，就是說這個在職安衛這個法的規定裡面也是不夠明確，所以我們必須把它進行法規的修正，這部分是行政命令，就是說業主他必須要提供避難，就是防高溫的設備跟設施給勞工，目前這個部分沒有明確化的規定，所以導致我們……"],["李委員昆澤：接下來要做明確化的規定嗎？來，說明一下。"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們8月底要把相關法規的明確字眼入法，我們現在只有要求進行避難這樣子的規定，可是沒有要求他提供設備、設施，會變成在勞檢的時候沒有辦法很明確地去罰他，所以這又會是一個執行上的問題。雖然我們夏季高溫勞檢好幾萬場次，可是罰的都很少，所以這會變成一個無效率的狀態，很快這個月我們就要進行法規修正。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，我們之前通過了勞工職業災害保險及保護法，針對勞工職場安全以及發生職業災害之後，他們相關的津貼、保障以及保護等等有更進一步的提升，而且對於他們職災之後的重建有更進一步具體的保障。但是我要請教，我看我們今年1至4月職業災害預防補助申請只有20件，而且職業災害重建1至4月只有7件，這個部分必須更加強做相關處理。來，說明一下。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。職災預防重建中心是一個職災保護法之後新成立的單位，運作到現在大概2、3年左右而已，事實上它也在摸索中，因為它是一個前端跟後端──前端預防跟後端重建，在臺灣這樣子一個職業安全衛生醫學環境裡面，目前運作的狀況，因為它是針對一般民間的，所以它還要去找個案，然後對它進行一些示範的輔導，它現在都還在嘗試建立model的工作而已，所以可能還不夠全面推廣，這是事實，我想我們必須強化這個效率，還有包括它的範圍，我會朝這個方向來進行全面的……"],["李委員昆澤：院長，因為時間的關係，請院長全力督促，針對勞保對勞工的相關保障，以及降低職災的部分，請督促勞動部拿出具體的成績，以上。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝李委員的關心，謝謝指教。"],["主席：謝謝李委員。下一位我們請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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這很嚴重的我們有625人勞工失去生命 這很嚴重的每一位勞工都是我們的家人一般他們為臺灣的經濟發展付出最大的心力勞工的權利必須要具體的保障那我們看看相關的勞工職業災害有50%都營造業了"},{"start":478.666,"end":490.759,"text":"對。然後有43%左右都是墜落。是。那都是非常嚴重的。是。那勞動部委員提出說營造業墜落打幾年?"},{"start":491.618,"end":495.501,"text":"那你們有什麼具體的做法來講一下?具體的做法會不會提高相關的公安裁罰的金額?"},{"start":513.596,"end":516.779,"text":"我剛剛提到職業安全衛生法也會提高相關的裁罰金額,現在只有3萬到30萬,而且裁罰金額都沒有公佈,這是要檢討的。那麼我們準備要把它大幅提高,因為這個部分也不能讓業主心存僥倖,"},{"start":532.771,"end":556.299,"text":"那麼尤其我們在這個營造業的這個趕工的過程裡面,常常大家輕忽的工地安全本身的這樣子的一個連帶的責任的問題,這是部分我們必須確實檢討的。那違反了大部分都是職業安全衛生法的第6條,那更應該具體的提出一些督促管理的這樣的作為,所以說我"},{"start":558.663,"end":566.837,"text":"一直要請教何部長,你剛就任。我們對於要降低職業災害到底有什麼具體的做法?你有什麼目標?"},{"start":569.516,"end":573.558,"text":"那修法之前你有什麼具體的措施嗎?相關的行政作為嗎?我們也提到勞檢,部長你也提到勞檢。我們一年勞檢的場次大概是28萬的場次。"},{"start":597.449,"end":616.596,"text":"如果以初檢來說就有11萬場次那11萬場次的初檢它的違規是達到12萬次以上所以去初檢大概都有問題都幾乎百分之百以上那當然我們在相關的復檢這些違規的這些場次裡面"},{"start":621.657,"end":646.205,"text":"勞動部所提供的資料號稱它的改善率達到92%,有證據嗎?來請你說明一下。我想這個確實該檢討,因為如果跟對照我們委員所感受到的或我們大家所感受到的,確實這個不盡符合事實。那麼因為我剛上任,我也要求我們職安署對這個問題要進行全面的檢討。"},{"start":647.225,"end":669.917,"text":"因為包含初檢跟復檢之間,它會有一個時間差嘛。那麼初檢跟復檢之間還有包括我們對停工範圍的定義,其實那個有很多檢討的空間。這個部分我倒是要肯定一下勞動部,我們對於勞檢的場次啊,這樣的增加是更能夠具體的來保障勞工的職場的安全。"},{"start":670.475,"end":679.195,"text":"但是相關的這一些對於業者的督促以及相關的改善必須更進一步的來作為提升。來說明一下。"},{"start":680.009,"end":700.822,"text":"是,就是另一方面這個除了我們這個增加勞檢修職業安全衛生委員就是說這個勞檢要確實化跟修職業安全衛生法也很有關係因為我們目前的職業安全衛生法某些規範並沒有那麼的明確化所以導致這個我們在勞檢進行裁罰的時候其實也不夠具體"},{"start":702.103,"end":723.432,"text":"這個是有互相連帶關係,所以希望我們能在最快的時間內提出執行委的修法,也能獲得委員的支持。這個必須要更具體的作為。部長我都簽稿了,熱危害的議題。院長、部長,這幾天都灰色的熱,我們好像住在人生裡面。這就是因為極端氣候的這樣的一個肆虐跟趨勢。"},{"start":725.076,"end":741.804,"text":"那勞工朋友在這麼炎熱的天氣工作,相關的熱危害以及對身體所造成的衝擊啊,他的傷害性非常的大。在6月26號,郵局的勞工啊,郵差,辛苦的郵差啊,就一位眾署分導。"},{"start":742.634,"end":758.576,"text":"在送信的過程裡面那我們對於熱危害部長你有什麼具體的想法來部長請說明對要跟委員報告這熱危害確實也是當前大家都在注意的一個大問題我們現在也進行夏季高溫勞檢"},{"start":759.938,"end":777.804,"text":"也是一樣有勞檢,可是呢,這個一樣就是說,這個在食安委的這個法的規定裡面也是不夠明確,所以我們必須要把它進行法規的修正,這部分是行政命令。就是說業主他必須要提供避難,就是這一個防高溫的設備跟設施給勞工。"},{"start":780.385,"end":809.494,"text":"目前這個部分沒有明確化的規定。接下來要做明確化的規定嗎?來說明一下。我們8月底要來做這個相關法規的明確字眼入法。我們現在只有要求他進行避難的這個規定,避難這樣子的一個規定,可是沒有要求他提供設備設施。所以會變成你在勞檢的時候,你又沒有辦法很明確的去罰他。所以這個又是一個執行上的問題。"},{"start":810.314,"end":828.432,"text":"雖然我們下季勞工勞檢好幾萬場次可是罰的都很少所以這是會變成一個無效率的一個狀態這樣子所以我很很快的這個月就要進行這個法規的修正我們之前有通過勞工的職業災害保險以及保護法那針對勞工的職場的安全以及相關發生職業災害之後"},{"start":834.478,"end":834.518,"text":"﹚李昆澤﹚"},{"start":862.407,"end":882.913,"text":"那這個部分必須要更加強的來做相關的處理,來說明一下。好,謝謝委員。那個植栽預防重建中心是一個植栽保護法之後新成立的單位。它運作大概現在三年左右,兩三年左右而已。那麼它事實上也在摸索中。"},{"start":883.773,"end":883.813,"text":"﹚李昆澤"},{"start":901.483,"end":902.543,"text":"院長因為時間的關係請院長全力督促針對相關的勞保對勞工的保障。"},{"start":935.26,"end":940.004,"text":"好,謝謝李委員下一位我們請羅廷偉委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"154582","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154582","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb618fa32655814202f69a09fb1100d58f4be9d3d28c55f1f245baa0123905ad953be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"14:30:49 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14:46:46","影片長度":"00:15:57","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T14:30:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T14:46:46+08:00","duration":957,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（14時31分）謝謝主席，請卓院長還有勞動部何部長。"],["主席：請卓院長還有勞動部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員國成：你好。院長、部長，我回想十幾年前一碗牛肉麵的事，我對卓榮泰秘書長印象深刻，也就是本席在做立法委員主任的時候，十幾年前你在當秘書長的時候，一碗牛肉麵你付錢了，我永遠記住你的為人跟你所作所為。所以你沒有發現到每一次我在質詢，對你是彬彬有禮尊敬有加嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我改天再去吃牛肉麵。"],["林委員國成：雖然是一碗牛肉麵，但是有一點感情的存在。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：但是我感覺到很奇怪，我認識的卓榮泰院長，在我的心目中，我們國會五法通過以後，記者在問你，你還一句「以身試法」，這一點我心裡面很難過。其實我看得出來從頭到現在，你的團隊跟你本人都不是鬥雞耶！你看立法委員在跟你對答的時候，我們彼此之間都非常尊重的，所以院長，「以身試法」這四個字，其實不要用啦！因為以你的能力，以立法委員對於你的尊敬程度，「以身試法」這四個字不要用，因為我認識的卓榮泰，他不是鬥雞型，你的團隊也不是鬥雞型！院長，我們說實在的，於公於私我給你建議，沒有那麼恐怖啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，也有委員提醒我，以身試法可以是考試的「試」，也可以是適用的「適」，都可以，我再次強調，質詢就像一面鏡子，委員看到我就像我看到委員一樣，我們彼此尊重，國家就會進步。"],["林委員國成：院長，我是好言相勸啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我瞭解，我完全接受。"],["林委員國成：沒有那麼恐怖啦！我們現在回到正題，當然我要跟你談的就是勞工安心，政府就放心。大家都知道我們2,300萬人口有1,100萬是勞工，勞工在我們社會基層確實是扮演非常重要之角色，所以我要跟你談的就是勞保。我也很感謝我們從以前陳院長時的許銘春部長，到現在何部長，第一個，關於勞工疑慮的東西，也就是勞工一直投保，但是怕破產，這一點何部長跟卓院長一上臺就做了宣誓，政府會負起給付之責任……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員國成：你知道嗎？勞工心裡面踏實安心多了，所以我的主題很簡單──勞工安心，政府就放心，你們推行什麼，他們在勞工的角色上就會按部就班、認真去做，我今天要跟你們談的就是這個問題。","當然，一個部長是不可能把這個事情完成，院長你一定要力挺部長才有辦法把它完成。很簡單，我要利用簡短的時間特別跟院長做說明跟報告，關於勞保的破產，勞工的基金會演變成這樣是在省政府移交中央政府的時候，第一、沒清算；第二、不知道虧損多少。有些人怪民進黨，我說沒有理由，只要有執政的通通要怪，為什麼？我同意民進黨現在要概括承受，但是一味的批評民進黨對勞保基金虧損的責任是不公平的。勞工很簡單，對就對、不對就不對，所以我必須要跟院長報告一點，勞工所有的基金虧損跟勞工沒有關係，當初政府虧損有多少？我現在問部長、問院長，你們也不知道，到底那個洞有多深？但是我必須要提醒卓院長，84年4月1號把醫療移到健保的時候，我很大膽的跟院長報告，勞工基金這部分是不虧錢的，而真正虧錢的是前朝、前朝，以前的前朝，我為什麼要講？因為全部怪你們是沒有理由的，我們要把事情講得非常清楚，不要怪勞工說：繳少領多，現在卻要變成繳多領少，這對勞工是不公平的。院長，說實在的，我要代表1,100萬的勞工跟你請命，並把事實真相稟報給院長，讓院長做決策時不會做出錯誤的決策。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的說明。"],["林委員國成：這一點我拜託卓院長，你要撥個時間去瞭解這個前因後果。","另外，我們也很感謝，從2020年到現在，你們算負責任的提撥了兩千多億，所以我看現在勞保基金的水位是有兆的，這代表什麼？這代表你們是負起責任的，因為勞工是無辜的，所有的虧損、政府經營不善而延續下來的大洞完完全全要叫你們馬上解決，這有點不公平，但總是要讓勞工安心。可以看得出來，你們組閣以後、何部長上任以後，勞工沒有吵、沒有鬧，他們覺得卓內閣、何部長說領得到錢，這代表什麼？就是代表勞工是安心的。我想，你身為一個內閣，你當然有義務去做，但是有一點我必須要說，勞工要的不多，勞工要的只是安心，勞工要的不是現在要比照公務人員等等更好的福利，最起碼是他們可以領得到錢、能夠安心，投保投了30年、40年，最後他們勞保的退休可以領得到。所以我要建議院長還有部長，關於這個撥補，在法令上是你們的行政措施，但是本席在這裡要拜託你們把給付入法，也就是確定給付這個部分要把它入法，我相信，我不曉得，卓院長，因為你已經擔保勞保不會倒，政府要負起責任，所以在這個部分，第六十九條跟第六十六條，本席都提了修改入法的案子，院長，針對這個你同不同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員剛剛對何部長有相當多的肯定，這個也是我們做事的目標，但是也要得到人民共同的支持，就算是同一政黨的執政，也是要延續、概括承受過去；就算不是，政府的工作還是延續的，現在該有的努力，還有彌平過去任何的缺口，這也是我們的責任，絕對不會推卸責任。至於對勞工的問題、對勞保，政府負最後責任，這個絕對不會改變，過去幾次我們也曾經在支付責任跟撥補入法當中有一些討論，現在這些立法要不要把它入法的這個過程、立場，我們還是一致的，希望取得社會更多的共識，勞動部一直在跟大家尋求這樣的共識。"],["林委員國成：謝謝院長，我要代替勞工跟你謝謝，勞工要的是一個確保，也謝謝卓院長勇於對這件事情的認同，我們、本黨也已經提這個案的修法，其實這個案非常單純，一個是撥補正常化，也就是院長認為應該要撥補就撥補；另外一個就是確定給付，讓勞工很放心，所以這點首先我還是要謝謝我們院長在這個部分，你可以對於全國的勞工勇敢的承認，這個部分政府要負全部責任，所以這點我要特別謝謝我們卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是應該做的。"],["林委員國成：好，何部長可以請回。接著請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員國成：邱部長，我時間比較少，但是我必須要讓你看一下，新冠疫情這個部分我要請教一下，因為你是醫生，我也知道你對整個醫療非常的認真，這個毋庸置疑，我也不要再跟你討價還價了，這部分你是行家，所以新冠疫情再起，政府準備好了沒？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告一下，應該是準備相當周全，不管是從疫病趨勢的模式來看，我們7月中會到達高峰，但是應該就會下來，這是第一個；第二個，剛剛委員資料上面寫得很清楚，我們從持續疫情的監測、強化物品的儲備、調度，以及我們一直在更新應該有的感染控制指引，還有加強民眾的衛教，還有促進醫療院所的合作，大概都一直在做，最重要的就是藥物有沒有準備齊全，我們盤點到7月6號為止，瑞德西韋還有8萬多劑，倍拉維有18萬劑，而基層比較擔心的……"],["林委員國成：醫療沒有問題，這都沒有問題，部長，我在這裡提醒你一下，因為你對於這些是行家，我相信卓院長也會力挺你們，但是老百姓的生命是非常重要的，這次的疫情死亡率有一點偏高，所以這個部分部長可能要代替院長特別去注意這些。另外一個，政府如果有作為，現在就很簡單，到底各醫院的口罩要不要戴，現在臺大醫院規定要戴，但是其他醫院不一定要戴，所以這個部分建議部長要不要統一呢？小小的一個動作，可能就會給老百姓有一個遵循的方向，所以這個要拜託部長，我相信卓院長不可能管得這麼細，但因為你是衛福部，這個部分要不要統一，這很重要，就像交通的部分在高鐵上要不要戴口罩，這個你們要請專家做一個評估。"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們都會依照專家的指引，而各醫院、醫療院所更小心，這是好事情。"],["林委員國成：另外一個就是包括你剛才所講的口罩、快篩等等，其實有備無患，這是非常重要的。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["林委員國成：講快一點，從SARS到新冠，我們都有經驗：預防勝於治療，而部長又是內行，所以只要民意代表向你提醒與建議，我相信你們都做得到，因為這是本來應該要替老百姓做的。還有一點我要提醒院長可能也要注意一下，小孩子打的預防針是比較小的、是比較偏低的，所以有沒有可能針對這些去做預防動作？院長，我給你建議。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員國成：你在整個統籌時要注意這些，因為我們提出的是事實。拜託院長，雖然你國事繁忙，但這最起碼的你還是要去注意。"],["卓院長榮泰：人民健康是永遠擺第一的，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員國成：院長，坦白說，我剛才講的一碗牛肉麵的故事，讓我心裡覺得卓榮泰永遠讓我感覺是彬彬有禮、做事認真，是廣結善緣之人。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員真是有情有義。"],["林委員國成：我也要針對拜託院長，一定要支持勞工，第二個，要支持衛福部，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教，一定。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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我說實在的啦 這我要代表1100萬的勞工跟你請便 跟把事實的真相 稟報給我們院長 讓院長去做決策的時候 不會做錯誤的決策"},{"start":426.006,"end":445.551,"text":"這點我拜託委員長你就要有一個時間去了解這個前因後果那另外一個我們也很感謝從2020到現在你們算負責任的也提拔了2000多億所以我看現在勞保基金現在的水位"},{"start":446.894,"end":462.31,"text":"是有罩的。說這代表什麼?這代表你們是負起責任的。因為勞工是無辜,所有的虧損政府經營不善而延續下來的大洞。"},{"start":463.271,"end":481.5,"text":"往往全權要叫你們馬上解決這是有點不公平但是勞工總是要讓他有一個安心所以可以看得出來啊你組閣以後何部長上任以後勞工沒有吵沒有鬧他接著說左內閣何部長他們說娘有到錢"},{"start":487.043,"end":515.334,"text":"所以這代表什麼就代表勞工是安心的那這個我想你身為一個內閣當然你有這種義務去做但是我必須一定要有一點勞工要的不多勞工要的只是讓他安心勞工要的不是說你現在要比照公務人員等等的更好的福利最起碼的話他可以領得到錢"},{"start":516.334,"end":529.225,"text":"他安心我投保投了30年40年我最後我勞保的退休我領得到所以這一點我要建議我們院長還有我們部長這個"},{"start":531.956,"end":548.988,"text":"報補在法令上是你的行政措施但是本席在這裡要拜託要把己父入華也就是確定己父這個部分要把它入華我相信我不曉得卓院長"},{"start":549.568,"end":566.434,"text":"因為你已經擔保勞保不會倒政府要負起責任所以在這個部分69條跟66條本席都提修改入法的問題院長你針對這個你同不同意"},{"start":567.764,"end":593.631,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛對何部長有相當多的肯定這個是我們做事的目標但是也要得到人民共同的支持就算是同一政黨的執政也要延續概括承受過去就算不是政府的工作還是延續的前政府現在該有的努力我們要把它擬平過去的任何的缺口也是我們的責任這個絕不推卸責任"},{"start":594.452,"end":619.083,"text":"至於對勞工的問題對勞保的政府負最後責任這個絕對不會改變那麼過去幾次我們也曾經在支付責任跟撥補入法當中我們有一些討論那現在這些立法要不要把它入法裡面的這個過程立場我們還是一致那希望取得社會更多的共識那勞動部一起再跟大家尋求這樣的共識"},{"start":620.764,"end":643.686,"text":"謝謝院長我要代替勞工跟你謝謝勞工要的是一個確保勞工要的是一個確保那也謝謝卓院長勇於對於這件事情的認同但是我們本會也已經提這個案的修法其實這個案非常單純一個撥補正常化也就是院長認為應該要撥補就撥補"},{"start":645.808,"end":673.417,"text":"那另外一個就確定起伏讓勞工很放心所以這點首先我還是要謝謝我們我們院長在這個部分你可以對以前國的勞工勇敢的承認這個政府要負全部責任所以這點我要特別謝謝我們卓院長是應該做的好那個何部長可以請回來那個邱部長請邱部長"},{"start":686.138,"end":709.817,"text":"好來邱部長我時間比較少但是我必須就是要讓你看一下新冠疫情這個部分我要請教一下因為你是醫生我也知道你對於整個醫療是非常認真這個無庸置疑我也不要再跟你討價還價這是你是行家"},{"start":711.838,"end":737.911,"text":"政府準備好了沒有?新冠疫情再起準備好了沒有?跟委員報告一下應該準備相當周全不管是從我們一個疫病的一個歧視的模式來看我們7月中會到達高峰但是應該就會下來那這是第一個第二個我們剛剛委員上面有寫得很清楚我們從持續疫情的監測強化這個物品的儲備調度"},{"start":739.312,"end":756.33,"text":"以及我們一直在更新我們應該有的感染控制指引還有加強民眾的衛教還有跟促進醫療院所的合作大概都一直在做那最重要的就是藥物有沒有準備的期前那我們盤點到7月6日瑞德西韋還有8萬多劑"},{"start":759.76,"end":779.972,"text":"拜登偉有18萬劑基層比較擔心的那個醫療沒有問題來部長我這裡提醒你一下因為你對於這些是行家我相信卓院長也會力挺你們但是老百姓的生命是非常重要這次的疫情"},{"start":780.792,"end":797.968,"text":"此往日有一點偏高所以這個部分部長可能要代替院長要特別去注意這些那另外一個這個政府如果有作為現在很簡單到底各醫院口罩要不要戴"},{"start":799.009,"end":817.202,"text":"現在臺大醫院是規定人家要帶喔但是其他醫院不一定帶喔所以這個建議部長要不要統一小小的動作可能就會給老百姓有一個遵行的方向所以這個要拜託部長"},{"start":818.823,"end":838.341,"text":"我相信卓院長不可能管得這麼細但是因為你是衛福部這個部分要不要統一這很重要到底交通那個高鐵還要不要戴口罩這個你們要做專家的一個評估這個我們都會依照專家的指引那各醫院醫療院所更小心這是好事情"},{"start":838.881,"end":853.554,"text":"另外一個就是包括你剛才所講的口罩啦快篩啦這個等等其實有備無犯這是非常重要的因為我們講快一點從SARS到我們新冠我們都有經驗"},{"start":854.875,"end":876.141,"text":"那預防勝過於治療那部長又是內行所以我相信只要像民意代表跟你提出這些提請跟建議我相信你們都做得到了這也本來也應該要替老百姓去做的所以在這裡還有一點我要提醒院長可能也要注意一下"},{"start":877.674,"end":900.934,"text":"因為小孩子打的預防針是比較小是比較偏低的那這個部分有沒有可能針對這些要去做預防動作所以一定我這樣是在建議你在做整個統籌的時候你這些因為我們提出這些是一個事實所以拜託院長"},{"start":901.815,"end":928.895,"text":"因為雖然你這個國是緩慢,但最起碼這個你還是要去注意一下。人民健康是永遠是擺第一的,這個謝謝委員的提醒。所以一定,我坦白跟你講啦,剛才就是我講過的一碗牛肉麵的故事,讓我心裡面藏著,卓榮泰永遠讓我感覺到是彬彬有禮,做事認真,然後廣結上演之人。委員是有情有義。"},{"start":930.416,"end":945.221,"text":"我唯有拜託院長就是針對問題拜託你一定勞工要支持第二個衛護部這裡要支持這樣好不好謝謝委員指教一定好謝謝部長好謝謝院長好謝謝林委員好謝謝卓院長下一位我們請李坤哲委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"154581","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154581","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb6181e5aa98a0790775da09fb1100d58f4becebdb0dd8dcea734956a68d7c4c8c8d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"13:50:30 - 13:51:38","影片長度":"00:01:08","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T13:50:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T13:51:38+08:00","duration":68,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":733,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（13時50分）本院委員李彥秀有鑑於人類乳突病毒（HPV）影響民眾健康甚鉅，尤其男性頻繁感染與傳染HPV機率更高於女性，對男性健康威脅非常嚴重。而疫苗既為最具成本效益之公共衛生手段之一，有益於降低HPV感染與傳染機率，且世界多國與國內部分縣市業已為國中男生提供免費HPV疫苗接種，為奠定健康基礎與優質免疫力，降低HPV感染與癌症威脅，爰建請衛生福利部修正現行HPV疫苗接種對象，不分性別針對全國國中生提供公費接種HPV疫苗。是否有當？請公決案。謝謝。","案由：本院委員李彥秀、陳菁徽、廖偉翔、羅廷瑋、萬美玲、黃健豪等17人，鑑於人類乳突病毒（HPV）影響民眾健康甚鉅，尤其男性頻繁感染與傳染HPV機率更高於女性，對男性健康威脅嚴重。而疫苗既為最具成本效益之公共衛生手段，有益於降低HPV感染與傳染機率，且世界多國與國內部分縣市業已為國中男生提供免費HPV疫苗接種，為奠定健康基礎與優質免疫力，降低HPV感染與癌症威脅，爰請衛生福利部修正現行HPV疫苗接種對象，不分性別針對全國國中生提供公費接種HPV疫苗。是否有當？請公決案。","說明：","一、經查臺灣兒科醫學會業於111年1月26日聲明：「研究已證實人類乳突病毒（HPV）感染會導致的癌症與疾病，包含：口咽癌及頭頸癌、子宮頸癌、肛門癌、陰道癌、外陰癌、菜花等。子宮頸癌為台灣女性前10大癌症之一，且每4位子宮頸癌前病變就有1位是年輕的20-34歲女性。口咽癌則為台灣男性前十大癌症之一。美國研究自1999年至2015年觀察，發現每年由HPV導致的男性口咽癌個案數在過去15年間上升超過一倍，每10萬人的個案數已經多於女性子宮頸癌的個案數。且值得關注的是，HPV從女性傳染給男性的比率，事實上是高於從男性傳染給女性」。衛生福利部第五期國家癌症防治計畫亦敘明HPV為男性及女性重要的傳染病原之一，根據美國疾病管制局與預防中心報告分析，年輕男性HPV盛行率高於女性，於28歲至32歲族群盛行率更高達50%。美國「內科醫學年鑑」相關研究同樣指出，男性口腔感染HPV盛行率約為女性3倍，尤其口腔感染第16型高致癌風險病毒型比率高達女性6倍。在在可見強化男性HPV防治，不僅有利於降低異性間傳染機會，更對保護男性健康有極大助益。","二、不僅如此，知名醫學期刊《Lancet Global Health》研究發現，男性頻繁感染與傳染HPV機率較女性高。而預防接種是所有公共衛生工作中，最具成本效益的「投資」。世界各國的研究顯示，預防接種是預防傳染病最直接、最有效、最經濟的方法。臺灣兒科醫學會即有彙整，亞太經濟合作於110年第11屆健康與經濟高峰會議建議「除成人外，應導入及增加15歲青少年男女性接種HPV疫苗」，我國國民健康署同樣表示HPV疫苗對於未曾性行為或未受到HPV感染者最為有效。世界衛生組織則建議性行為尚未活躍或未受到HPV感染之9-14歲青少年，尤具接種HPV疫苗效益；倘若政府財政可負擔，更建議於9至14歲性行為尚未活躍女生之外，開始對男童等次要族群進行接種。益證為保護男性健康，為男性青少年接種疫苗，可降低其感染與傳染機率，擴大HPV疫苗覆蓋率，亦有助於增加女性接種效益，為全民建構起健康防線。","三、展望國際，已有近60國為男女接種HPV疫苗；國內以臺北市為例，其著眼因HPV病毒特性男性受感染後較難清除病毒，且男性無常規檢查致不易發現；而最有效的預防感染方式是接種HPV疫苗，在青少年階段是接種黃金期可達最大保護效果，故自113年9月1日起，將擴大提供設籍或就學於臺北市112學年度入學國中男生免費接種HPV疫苗。","四、爰請衛生福利部籌謀預算，檢討修正現行HPV疫苗接種對象，不分性別針對全國國中生提供公費接種HPV疫苗，為青少年奠定健康基礎與優質免疫力，降低HPV感染與癌症威脅。","提案人：李彥秀　　陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　羅廷瑋　　萬美玲　　黃健豪　　","連署人：陳超明　　張嘉郡　　鄭天財Sra Kacaw　　　黃建賓　　黃　仁　　鄭正鈐　　林德福　　呂玉玲　　賴士葆　　涂權吉　　徐欣瑩　　"],["主席：本院委員李彥秀等17人提案作如下決議：「函請行政院研處。」請問院會，有無異議？（無）無異議，通過。","報告院會，臨時提案均已處理完畢，下午2點30分繼續開會，進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（13時51分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1136601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.82284375,"end":28.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.296593750000003,"end":58.35096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.47284375,"end":68.15534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.017,"end":27.83,"text":"委員委員李彥秀有鑒於人類乳突病毒HPV影響民眾健康甚至尤其在男性頻繁感染與傳染HPV機率更高於女性對於男性健康威脅非常嚴重而疫苗既為最具成本效益的公式公共衛生手段的重要之一"},{"start":28.47,"end":57.409,"text":"有盡於降低HPV感染與傳染機率,而且世界多國與國內部分縣市已經為國中男性提供免費的HPV疫苗接種。為奠定健康基礎與優質的免疫力,降低HPV感染與癌症的威脅,原建請為不顧修正現行HPV疫苗接種對象,不分性別針對全國國中生提供公費接種HPV疫苗,是否有當建請公決案。"},{"start":62.213,"end":68.037,"text":"本院委員李彥秀等17人提案,作如下決議,函請行政院"}]}},{"id":"154580","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154580","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb618e8d3d5f86debd2b0a09fb1100d58f4becebdb0dd8dcea7346a969da2000207405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:42:14 - 11:58:20","影片長度":"00:16:06","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T11:42:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T11:58:20+08:00","duration":966,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":665,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時42分）謝謝主席，我請院長還有邱部長。"],["主席：請卓院長、邱部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：我今天主要是要問你，沒有要問邱部長，他很認真。院長，我請問你，你明年會就醫看病幾次？"],["卓院長榮泰：明年？"],["蘇委員清泉：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有辦法預言。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，沒辦法，對不對？這些行政官員，你知不知道你明年看病要看幾天？你會生小病還是生大病？不知道，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：最好都不要。"],["蘇委員清泉：都是未知，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：你自己都不知道你明年要看多少病、要花多少錢，結果國發會可以預估我明年要花多少醫療費用，總額就把你匡上去，然後超過都是你家的事情。全臺灣的公共政策只有醫療設總額而已，院長，這樣合理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道委員要檢討的是總額制度，但是每一個家庭雖然不知道看病要花多少，但是也有留一些錢，用於固定的醫療支出，如果算得比較詳細是這樣……"],["蘇委員清泉：那是看病的本錢，是以前的時代。現在叫一些院長出來情緒勒索，說什麼1點1塊會衝量，1點0.95就不會衝量嗎？照理說，如果是從心理學上來講，點值越低才會恐慌，才會越來越衝量，點值如果比較高反而不會，會穩穩的做。你叫這些院長出來情緒勒索我覺得很不好。"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是……"],["蘇委員清泉：第二個……"],["卓院長榮泰：點值1點1塊錢這個事情，我們應該有共同的想法，如果真的是1點換1塊錢，總額制度就打破了，沒有這個總額了。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為我們把……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們應該有相同的認知才對。如果要維持總額制度，數量可以檢討。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們把總額做一個目標啦！你如果這樣的話，我問你，針對台電，如果我問明年我的醫院要多少錢，你跟我說，我給你多少錢，電隨便我用，這樣你要嗎？你敢嗎？只有醫療你就這樣做下去。"],["卓院長榮泰：台電是有契約，跟大用電戶是有契約用電。"],["蘇委員清泉：那也是基本的啦，跟你吃幾碼、吃幾碼不一樣。所以一個好的公共政策滿意度到90%，你用總額匡住，我們要的是總額目標，不是說要廢總額喔，大家都在想要把總額廢掉，我們是說在總額裡面保證1點1塊錢，我等一下再說，超過的部分你打折給我們就好。全世界沒有人這樣在做的，全世界現在沒有人在做總額，只有中華民國臺灣。我們來看一段影片，這是那天院長召開的朝野協商，還有江副院長。","（播放影片）"],["蘇委員清泉：受不了了，所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，臺灣的醫療制度、健保制度能夠得到國人的肯定跟世界的稱許，總額的給付制度也是其中重要的因素之一，如果總額打破之後，很多醫院可能會因此得到很多的資源……"],["蘇委員清泉：總額的保留……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是國家的支出會無可限制。"],["蘇委員清泉：不，不，不，總額保留，但總額裡面的錢，你保障一點一塊錢，讓醫護人員可以安定下來，超過的部分你打折給付，事實上超過的，等一下會講。"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣就是沒有總額了啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：不是，不是，總額目標制。"],["卓院長榮泰：超過還要再打折，那就是沒有總額，那就沒有上限了。"],["蘇委員清泉：上禮拜確診新冠病毒多少人，你知道嗎？十萬人，死多少人，你知道嗎？你也不知道，這些產生的費用，去年四、五月時說新冠結束了，然後所產生的費用全部塞到健保裡面，石崇良署長很優秀，他四處在找錢，結果去年點值就掉得一塌糊塗，所以最後拿一點錢出來補，今年一樣，現在新冠又在燒了，現在莫德納新的疫苗還要兩、三個禮拜才做得出來。上禮拜十萬人確診，找不到病床，基層醫療灰頭土臉。這就是我們邱部長、邱委員、邱理事長當立委的時候拿出來的臨時提案，幫他連署的人叫做林靜儀、陳宜民，什麼意思？我還找出邱部長以前的臉書，16年、17年、18年，所以邱部長你有夠認真，你說你去吃牛肉麵，一碗一百塊，你吃了以後拿九十塊給老闆，差不多就是這個意思，那個牛肉麵的老闆就追出來了。院長，重點就在這裡，他算一算一年減455億元，你也把它量化出來了，邱部長，這是你去說的，現在要補點值，你就說要一千億、要七、八百億，我不知道石崇良跟你到底是怎麼算的。這個就是每一年的缺口，缺口差不多都是四、五百億，但是已經十幾年了，院長，累積起來好幾千億，所以醫界都被搾乾了，今天才會出這種事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，邱部長無論是在部長任內或是在理事長任內，尤其現在，他對於過去幾年下來把一些費用算到健保總額裡面來，應該移出到公務預算的這件工作，他非常努力在計算、在爭取，我們也跟他很詳細的在進行當中。"],["蘇委員清泉：最近邱部長跟石崇良署長兩個人，就像剛才你說的，把一些預算移到公務預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["蘇委員清泉：但是我看你行政院也不支持他啊！國發會也不支持他！院長，你支持他嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們開過幾次會，都同樣針對這個議題在進一步協商，因為已經快到要作決定的時候了。"],["蘇委員清泉：你要支持他啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。的確感謝以前蘇委員、蘇理事長的指導，我們共同傳承並希望讓醫療環境改善，所以在108年的時候，你看那幾個都是醫生，共同提出一些配套措施，希望我們就共同的目標來研議，政府要研議怎麼樣在3年內能夠達到點值1點1元的目標，我們來打拚，這是那時也繼續在打拚，當然現在我們是不是要直接把配套措施弄妥，我們再看要怎麼保障。所以我衛福部才會拜託委員這邊，如果可以給衛福部1年的時間，我把那些公務預算可以用的都清出來。院長、行政院真的也很打拚，當然牽涉到原來的一些體制也要跟……"],["蘇委員清泉：醫療有沒有辦法救，在乎你卓院長一念之間、一念之慈，要不然穩死的、穩死的！","我們是希望把匡一個上限改成「目標制」，我們沒有要廢總額，所以這個你還要再稍微研究，認真看一下。","醫療人員現在最大的問題就是七折八扣，這個是很糟糕的事情。下一張簡報就是這幾年來累計的差額，八千多億，你們給付的是七千七百多億，每一年的差額都差不多四、五百億，但是這個洞越裂越寬，現在要把它拉近，看要怎麼把它補起來，就是總統說的，看能不能36%公家出，變成38%，這是部長一直在執行的，而公務預算的部分，就由公務預算處理，到底會成功或不會成功，不是部長，是你！卓院長，你如果要支持就有救了；如果不支持，繼續爛下去！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然第一個是很尊重衛福部，包括部長和衛福部所有同仁在專業上的計算判斷。當然作決定的時候，我們要考慮到國家整個財政的能力來作決定，希望在維持財政穩定的情況底下，讓大家的平均利益都能夠得到共享。"],["蘇委員清泉：你的健保滿意度89.7%，有任何一個預算、任何一個公共政策有這麼高嗎？這是Taiwan Can Help，你們跑去日內瓦在那邊吹牛都在說臺灣的健保，除了臺灣的健保以外，好像沒什麼可以說了，所以這是我們驕傲的事情，但是你如果不珍惜它，等一下就死掉了！我們醫護人員的滿意度才30%。所以院長，你要認真地思考。","看下一張簡報，這個更糟糕，我們的男女平均壽命去年已經掉到79.84歲。院長，日本是84歲、韓國是84歲，平均壽命是一個國家進步的指標，我們已經遠遠落後日本、韓國、香港、澳門、新加坡，這是很漏氣的事情耶！你在健康方面的投入如果再不增加，這個平均壽命還會再往下掉！我們最好的就是109年81.32歲，這個不高，日本83、84、85歲；韓國也比我們高，韓國在2004年就贏過我們了，對健康的投入、對醫療保險的投入，他們是遠遠高過我們。所以院長，我再說一次，就要你支持，你行政院、國發會若是不支持，衛福部做得很難過，所以這要讓你瞭解。平均壽命會再往下掉喔！你如果再疏忽的話，搞不好會掉到78歲！再來很快就會被中國大陸追上，現在北京、上海、廈門的平均壽命八十一點多，不要一天到晚看不起大陸，所以這個讓院長知道一下。","下一張簡報，這是亞東醫院「燃燒殆盡」，兩個醫生、兩個護士，一個晚上看四十幾個病人，還有三、四個OHCA（到院前死亡）的，還送去做導管耶！聽了真的會讓人掉眼淚。他拍這張照片就是說他要退場了、他不想幹了！部長也打電話給亞東醫院院長跟他說要好好地安撫。是這樣幹的！","院長，我今天就是要講給你聽，因為我講給邱部長聽沒有用，那是在對著和尚唸經，不要再唸了！"],["卓院長榮泰：有啦，他很認真。"],["蘇委員清泉：很認真，我也說他很認真。","另外是現在我們還碰到一個很重要的問題，院長，這個我今天第一次提出來：我們現在急重症的醫師都跑掉了，有的跑去診所，有的跑去其他地方。牙科醫師跑光光，我服務的醫院8個牙科醫師跑得剩下2個，6個都跑到診所去。為什麼？因為診所的稅輕，他們是用78%當費用，22%當薪資所得課稅，所以診所醫師每年繳的所得稅都5萬、不到20萬，如果留在醫院重症科等等，都繳到上百萬，甚至要繳到200萬，稅率大概是百分之三、四十，所以他們覺得很累，不只身心燃燒殆盡，還要繳那麼多稅，所以大家都跑掉。","所以我要請院長思考一下，重症醫師是不是能有薪資特別扣除額，或者是讓他們採用執行業務所得，扣除20%的費用？減輕他們的稅也可以間接增加他們的收入，不然真的會跑光光。院長，這點請你思考一下，一定要慎重考慮。部長，我們就用這個方法來處理，好不好？不然大家都要跑去診所服務，這樣不行啦！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：接下來是我們的給付太少，砍價砍得太厲害，這就是健保局的厲害所在，點滴光是一個輸液都不夠！院長，一罐500cc的點滴只核25點，現在跟新加坡買，一罐要57元，1,000cc的要107元，我們核三十幾點。因為壓榨得太厲害，所以沒有人要做。賠本生意沒人做！所以在這裡跟院長說。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我特別要求衛福部一定要保證貨源充足，不要讓大家產生使用上的疑慮，另外就是這整個處理的過程當中，應該值得檢討的部分要拿來當做一個很好的教訓。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，現在來源是沒有問題，來源都已經很充足了，只是的確在藥價各方面我們會重新檢討。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員，謝謝卓院長還有部長。醫療的部分是國安問題，請特別注意。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓的貴賓有美國南部地區州議會的領袖訪問團，我們歡迎他們。We wellcom the State Congress and State Senators from the United States. Thank you.","另外，報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽的還有新北市中和客家社團的朋友們，我們也歡迎你們。","報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止，下午1點50分處理臨時提案，下午2點30分繼續開會，進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢。","現在休息。","休息（11時59分）","繼續開會（13時50分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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子要報價,你就說要一千億要七八百億,我不知道石崇良你怎麼算的啦。那給我看看齁,你看看,這個就是"},{"start":412.742,"end":424.319,"text":"每一年的缺口嘛,缺口都四、五百億、四、五百億,但是已經十幾年,院長,這幾個幾千年,所以他都打打打,但是今天出這種事情。"},{"start":425.351,"end":453.34,"text":"這個跟委員報告,邱部長,無論是在部長任內或是在理事長任內,尤其現在,他對於過去幾年下來,把一些費用算到健保總額裡面來,應該移出到公務預算的這件工作,他非常努力在計算在爭取,我們也跟他很詳細的在進行當中。最近,邱部長跟石崇亮署長兩個都去做,剛才你說的,做公務預算,要稍稍回去公務預算。是的。"},{"start":454.04,"end":459.47,"text":"我看你行政院也不支持你啊!你國安會也不支持你啊!我們開過幾次的會都在同樣針對這個議題在做進一步的協商因為已經快到了要做決定的時候啊!你要支持啊!那請部長說明一下"},{"start":469.363,"end":493.769,"text":"好,謝謝,的確感謝以前施委員、蘇理事長的指導,我們共同傳承的一個希望讓醫療環境改善,所以在2018年的時候,你看那幾個都醫生嘛,共同提出一些配套的措施,會希望說我們共同的目標,來研議,那是政府要研議,要如何在三天內可以達到,"},{"start":498.79,"end":509.438,"text":"點子一點一塊的目標,我們來拍面。這是那個時候也叫你拍面。當然現在我們說要在這裡是不是配套措施用得好一點,我們要怎麼來保障。所以我可以為衛福部拜託委員說這邊可以給衛福部一段時間,我把公務預算可以用出來、清出來。"},{"start":524.248,"end":546.237,"text":"這個醫療有沒有辦法救齁,在乎你卓院長一念之間,一念之詞。阿如果沒有,我們死的啦,我們死的齁。來,這一張。我們也是希望把上限,框一個上限,把它拿起來改成目標。"},{"start":547.469,"end":564.556,"text":"目標,我們沒有要匯總額,所以這個要稍稍研究,認真看一看。然後呢,醫療人員現在最大的問題就是七折八扣嘛。這個是很糟糕的事情。這個就是這幾年來累計的差額。"},{"start":571.63,"end":588.951,"text":"﹗"},{"start":590.214,"end":595.681,"text":"總統說可以30%的說到38%,這裏我們補充在認真,國務委員會提提頭,國務委員會去處理。真的這個選舉不選舉不是補充,是你,你左院長,你若要支持就有機會,若不支持繼續亂下去。"},{"start":609.973,"end":610.073,"text":"下一張"},{"start":629.178,"end":653.593,"text":"您的健保的滿意度89.7有很好的醫生、有很好的公共政策、有這麼高的就是台灣CanHelp,您找的日內瓦當、本屆幾都在講台灣的健保除了台灣的健保以外,好像沒什麼人在講所以這是我們驕傲的事情,但是你若不要珍惜,你就驕傲起來我們醫護人員的滿意度才30%,30%所以那個院長,你要"},{"start":659.691,"end":668.445,"text":"認真的思考下一張這個更糟糕我們的平均壽命現去年已經調到79.84歲男女平均一六"},{"start":675.214,"end":696.051,"text":"日本是84歲,韓國是84歲。我們的平均壽命這是一個國家進步的指標。我們已經遠遠落後日本、韓國、香港、澳門、新加坡。這是很漏氣的事情。你的健康的投入如果再不增加,這個平均壽命還要再往下掉。我們最好就在109歲,81.32歲。"},{"start":700.331,"end":724.892,"text":"這不高捏,日本83、84、85啊捏。韓國也被人家管。韓國2千控4年就嚇過爛了。啊他們的對健康的投入、對醫療保險的投入,他們是遠遠高過我們。所以院長,我可以講一句,就在你支持。你行政院國會如果不支持,他們外部做到很難過。所以這要讓你了解。"},{"start":725.765,"end":726.225,"text":"這就是我們亞東醫院"},{"start":753.885,"end":768.148,"text":"燃燒殆盡。兩位醫生、兩位護士、一枚看40多個病人、又奧卡的、到院前死亡三、四個、又去上去做導管的。聽到是老百姓的。他心中就是他要退場了,他不敢做了。兩位院長,我們補典也叫他去安撫。"},{"start":777.642,"end":790.571,"text":"這樣幹的,我今天都要講給你聽,因為我講給邱部長聽不好,他要對著和尚唸經,還不用再唸嘛。另外一個,現在我們碰到一個很重要的問題,院長,這個我今天第一次提出來。我們現在急重症的醫師都跑掉,有的跑去診所,有的跑去堆。"},{"start":807.654,"end":831.288,"text":"我服務的醫院八個牙科醫師,跑掉剩下兩個。六個都跑到診所去。為什麼?因為診所的稅很輕。他們是用百分之七十八當費用,百分之二十二當薪資所得稅。所以今受的醫生一等一叫的所得稅都五萬,不夠二十萬。"},{"start":832.412,"end":859.791,"text":"那裡邊的重症科的什麼科的,他都六百幾萬,有的說六百幾萬,七十%的稅,三十%的稅。所以他覺得很累,就笑到哒哒哒,又六百多的稅,所以大家都跑。所以我在這裡要跟院長思考一下,是不是有醫師的一個特別扣除,重症醫師的一個特別扣除,薪資的特別扣除,或者是讓他們用知己業務所得,讓他們能夠扣20%的,"},{"start":861.906,"end":861.926,"text":"再來"},{"start":890.441,"end":906.353,"text":"我們的指腹,指腹太久了。臺階小,臺料太厲害了。這是柬埔宿的厲害的地方。所以柬埔宿臺到點滴,只有一個水,就都沒夠。一罐58CC的點滴,我們可以合25點。現在要給新加坡買一罐要57塊。一千CC的。"},{"start":917.256,"end":920.981,"text":"這個我特別要求衛部一定要保證貨源充足"},{"start":955.549,"end":964.219,"text":"謝謝蘇委員、謝謝左院長還有部長。醫療的部分是國安問題,也請特別注意。"}]}},{"id":"154577","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154577","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb618e3095c6c53b28745a09fb1100d58f4be0e42658b4167efd5e0e135e5ff889c205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:26:39 - 11:42:07","影片長度":"00:15:28","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T11:26:39+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T11:42:07+08:00","duration":928,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":605,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（11時26分）主席，有請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：院長好，今天是第二次見面囉！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["盧委員縣一：我先考你幾個問題，我們的文化安全是什麼？文化安全，根據加拿大的一個研究，就是說你要降低彼此之間的一個誤解、歧視，要建構一個文化安全的模式，通常是在講醫療機構，我想醫療機構的文化安全要建立，不過，不只醫療機構，學校、各級機關應該都要有文化安全的一個教育，我們現在都在推文化安全的課程，這是在原住民族健康法裡面所保障，應該要擴及全國的一個教育，請問國家做了哪些努力？"],["邱部長泰源：我想文化這件事情牽涉得很廣，如果以醫療的場域來看，我們必須對於不同文化的族群，他在就醫時一定要有平權，包括他的可近性，包括他……"],["盧委員縣一：我們先看一下第三個，就是CULTURAL SAFETY的下面，Trauma- and violence-informed care，也就是說，你在面對這樣一個病人，你知不知道他跨世代的一個仇恨，對他心理所造成的影響？醫療人員有沒有基本上這樣的概念？而Cultural Humility就是說，你有沒有先入為主的概念？Anti-racism 就是我們一直在講的歧視，這些文化安全的課程能不能降低這些歧視？就在這個安全課程裡面所涵蓋的這整個範圍，我們目前臺灣在做的步驟裡面有沒有在進行？因為這是在原住民族健康法裡面所規定應該要進行的課程，我相信有在做，可是沒有做得很澈底，有沒有一個步驟，比如說10年計畫、20年計畫、長遠的規劃，我們什麼時候可以達成完全消弭對文化所謂的先入為主的一個概念？有沒有這樣的一個想法？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，我們共同來關心原住民的醫療權利。因為在過去七、八年當中，在立法院討論到這個題目是非常的熱烈，而且大家真的都是同心一致看怎麼樣用各種方式來提升原住民的健康水準。過去幾年的努力，我們在原住民方面的平均壽命，其實已經跟一般臺灣從10歲……"],["盧委員縣一：等一下後面會講到。"],["邱部長泰源：對，這表示我們在軟硬體方面其實都一直在進行，不管是在偏鄉的硬體、衛生所各方面或衛生室，甚至活動中心的重建，我想至少有40個計畫在進行。在軟體方面，我們希望，也曾經談過語言方面的協助……"],["盧委員縣一：我是希望能夠聽到衛福部有一個短程的、遠程的計畫，在整個文化教育裡面能不能扮演一個角色？就是說你先主導，以後可以推廣到比如說教育部，或者是相關的公部門等等，我們這些主流社會在面對弱勢族群的時候，應該要有文化的素養，我的想法是這樣。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["盧委員縣一：因為我們最常面對的就是醫療機構，最常使用的也是醫療機構，所以先從這邊來做一個計畫性的培植，我是指文化教育這個部分，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，其實我們已經成立了原住民健康政策會，也補助國家衛生研究院成立原住民健康研究中心，我們都往這方面在努力，我們會繼續努力。"],["盧委員縣一：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也跟委員報告，因為原民會今天不在現場，原民會跟教育部已經針對文化安全課程有訂定一個相關的辦法，未來跟衛福部還會再進行後續的動作。"],["盧委員縣一：好，沒關係，我今天為什麼會講這個？就是因為沒有專責機構，關於專責機構，我上次有請衛福部到辦公室來討論，他們就說目前的想法還是放在一個「科」的概念，我希望能夠升級到「處」的概念，或者是說更高「司」的概念，是不是在照顧原住民族或者是山地離島，因為以往都是放在一起，照顧山地離島的族群來說，放在一個「科」的層級太低。到目前為止，去年就已經通過這個法律，可是專責機構卻還是沒有，如果有專責機構的話，有關文化安全的這些議題都可以在那裡面進行，不是嗎？因為去年就已經立法，而且三讀通過了，可是到現在還沒有看到一個專責機構的初步草案，或者是要設置在哪裡，有沒有那樣的想法？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的質詢，我想盧醫師很清楚我們這幾十年來，從我年輕的時候在參與衛生署的工作，就是有一個專門的單位，當然是「科」在負責，我想您很清楚，也幫忙非常的多，一直在推展，其實當時這些科長後來也都晉升到相關重要的位置，他們心目中還是一直關心著原住民的推展。至於是不是要成立一個專責機構，我想我們再來……"],["盧委員縣一：不是「是不是」，是一定要！它是原住民族基本法……"],["邱部長泰源：就是說到底要到哪一個層級。"],["盧委員縣一：OK！"],["邱部長泰源：專責是一定有，但是它的層級在哪裡，我們可以再來研議。"],["盧委員縣一：好。現在看到一個比較屬於研究單位的是放在國衛院的原住民族健康研究中心，它是有成立了，謝謝有這樣一個單位，可是我們還是希望有專責機構。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["盧委員縣一：我們也都知道在原住民地區照顧我們的都是衛生所，我問一下院長，你最近一次去衛生所被服務的時候是什麼時候？"],["邱部長泰源：我？"],["盧委員縣一：沒有，我是說院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我要去打疫苗。"],["盧委員縣一：那是什麼時候？"],["卓院長榮泰：去年。"],["盧委員縣一：部長呢？最近有去衛生所嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我當過衛生所主任。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道。"],["邱部長泰源：民國77年我就當衛生所主任了，至於最近有沒有到……"],["盧委員縣一：好，我希望……"],["邱部長泰源：我是到基層醫療打針啦！"],["盧委員縣一：我希望你們有空的時候去山地離島的衛生所看一下，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["盧委員縣一：我要討論山地離島的問題。"],["邱部長泰源：我在當立委的時候也考察過原鄉衛生所幾次。"],["盧委員縣一：你有沒有去山地的衛生所就醫過？兩位有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["盧委員縣一：如果有一天你去霧台的時候看一下，因為離霧台最近的醫院大概要1個小時以上的距離，所有的遊客如果受傷，或當地居民需要藥物，都是到那裡，我們就要講它的沿革，其實偏遠地區，大概只有衛生所可以服務大家，而它的沿革是從公共衛生、從行政相驗、四癌篩檢等等，全部都落在衛生所身上，我們一直說要升級，110年有公共衛生服務體系升級策略，有這樣一個策略，然後我們就看它到底做了哪些，它是4個方向，第一個就是遠距的建構，它設置的5G場域是52所，可是你知道現在山地離島的鄉大概是55個鄉，那一個鄉才一個根本就不夠，每一個鄉有好幾個部落，就光復興區就有58個部落，你說52所就全國來講，根本就是緩不濟急；因為常常在做遠距醫療的時候，網速跟建構的基礎建設是最重要的，每次我們召集了很多病人到衛生所來，譬如跟長庚醫院要做媒合、做遠距醫療，結果所有的速度都down在那邊，也接不起來，然後又說是網路的問題；所以常常就是因為網路建置得不夠，這個遠距醫療你們說有達成目標，我感覺是有點在騙人，因為我看112年服務量是4,958案，要除以全國呢！全國有五十幾個鄉鎮，那是全年的人數，這樣子實在是一天可能照顧不到一個病人。所以我覺得這個部分應該是要加強各地區的基礎建設，才能夠真正把遠距醫療做好。","第二個就是我們所謂的衛生所整建、耐震補強，這個我查得到我們自己本身山地的部分，霧台鄉還在招標當中，我覺得它的問題就是金額太低，如果說只有兩百多萬，你要怎麼在偏遠地區去蓋一個衛生室？是從無到有的，它不是整建喔！它是完全重新蓋一間新的衛生室，霧台鄉大武村那個地方是非常偏遠，只有這樣的金額，誰會去標這個工程來做呢？我看目前在招標的大概就有3間都是在山地鄉，一個是在卑南鄉，還有一個是在秀林鄉。也就是說，這些都是偏遠地區，金額那麼低，根本就沒有辦法做。","第三個問題就是，你們說要強化醫事人員，就是要有彈性，不過我看報告上面寫，目前符合的就是臺北跟屏東，也就是說，臺北跟屏東是完全沒有問題喔！我想舉例問一下，因為現在我們進用的醫護人員幾乎沒有所謂的族別限制、語言限制，所以他只要是現場OK的人，他都可以進來，也就是說，背景比較重要，然後真正應該到當地服務、聽得懂母語的人，卻永遠都沒有辦法進去。所以應該要從哪裡去改變？應該是要把我們偏遠地區服務的人限制所謂的百分比，就是80%應該是在地的人，或者是會講族語的人，他有護理師的資格、有母語的資格，應該就要優先錄用，而不是用我們現在政治酬庸的方式，全部給縣長當作給支持他的人來當護理師，不是這樣嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝！容我回答一下，第一個就是，有關於基層視訊遠距醫療的設備，我想這個就是我們多年來一直在強調的，一定要給錢、給技術，不然的話常常停頓在那裡，它的效果也不好，其實這個30年前我們就一直在發展了啦！但是真的還是希望大家……我想我們會努力再把它……"],["盧委員縣一：我們的時間有限，繼續看一下我們平均餘命的問題，我們現在做的，按照平均餘命來看的話，比澳洲還好，因為我們確實是在紐西蘭下面，然後是澳洲的前面，我有自己分析一下，大概是什麼原因？看下一頁，澳洲光是政府的投資大概972萬美金，這幾年增加了大概38%。好，我們再看下一頁，又說今年增加了100萬美金，如果我們這樣看換算臺幣其實也沒有很多，大概三千多萬元。","好，我們看下一個，如果就紐西蘭來看，就差很遠了，紐西蘭的話大概就是billion，billion的話就是30億紐幣，也是將近是四十幾億。如果是對primary care的話就是20億，20億如果乘以70%是14億，這是14億美金，不是臺幣。對毛利人、非毛利人的醫療差距，按照cost，即生活上面造成的一些代價，他們也算出來了。我最主要凸顯的是，澳洲的投資只有大概幾千萬美金，紐西蘭會那麼進步，在我們之上，是因為他們投入幾十億美金，我要講的重點是這個。紐西蘭的毛利人一直把臺灣當作母國，感覺很像他們是從臺灣過去的，是相對友好的一個國家。如果臺灣作為他們相對友好的國家，可是我們對原住民的付出遠遠不如他們的話，國家是不是要檢討？我的用意是在這裡。","接下來，最近要開始建置身體密碼庫，它是國衛院的計畫，它在雲林。我希望55歲以上長者的資料庫不要獨漏原住民，原住民等一下要找資料的時候又沒有辦法實際survey。這個東西應該跟我們剛剛看的國衛院裡面的原住民健康中心連結，而不是做了這一塊，原住民又漏了。"],["邱部長泰源：不會，一定會連結。"],["盧委員縣一：我是在提醒這方面的研究要留意，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，一定會連結。這兩個中心都是國衛院很重要的重點。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝院長，謝謝部長，我們一起努力。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝盧委員。","下一位請蘇清泉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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Safety的下面那個TRAUMATIC AND VIOLENT INFORMED CARE也就是說你在面對這樣一個病人你知不知道他這個跨世代的一個仇恨對他心裡面所造成的影響醫療人員有沒有基本上這樣的一個概念"},{"start":129.944,"end":156.748,"text":"那Cultural Humility就是說你沒有先入為主的概念那Anti-Racism就是我們一直在講的歧視如果這些文化安全的課程能不能降低這些歧視就在這個安全課程裡面所涵蓋的這個整個範圍那我們目前台灣在做的步驟裡面有沒有在進行因為這個是在原住民主健康法裡面所規定應該要進行的課程我相信"},{"start":157.915,"end":182.962,"text":"有在做可是沒有做得很徹底有沒有一個步驟比如說10年計畫20年計畫長遠的規劃我們什麼時候可以達成一個完全消明對文化一個所謂的一個先入為主的一個概念有沒有這樣的一個想法好謝謝委員的關心我們共同來關心原住民的醫療的權利那因為在過去"},{"start":184.394,"end":184.414,"text":"﹚一、"},{"start":204.372,"end":226.697,"text":"一般這臺灣的從10歲﹖這個等一下下面會講到﹖對會這樣那這中間表示說我們在軟硬體方面其實都一直在進行不管是在偏鄉的一個硬體衛生所各方面或衛生室甚至活動中心的一個重建我想都有至少有40個計畫在進行那在軟體方面我們也希望"},{"start":227.369,"end":244.854,"text":"也曾經談過語言方面的一個協助。我是希望能夠聽到衛福部有一個短程的遠程的一個計畫對整個文化一個教育裡面能不能扮演一個角色就是說你先主導以後可以推廣到比如說教育部啊"},{"start":245.314,"end":245.334,"text":"盧縣一"},{"start":266.516,"end":281.928,"text":"好,我想...可以嗎?其實以前我們已經成立了原住民健康政策會,也補助國家衛生研究成立原住民健康研究中心。其實都往這方面在努力,我們會繼續努力。好,第二位...我也跟委員報告,因為原民會今天不在,不在現場。"},{"start":282.968,"end":297.154,"text":"委員會跟教育部已經針對這個文化安全的課程有在訂定一個相關的一個辦法。那未來跟衛福部還會再進行後續的動作。我今天為什麼會講這個就是因為沒有專責機構"},{"start":298.993,"end":324.304,"text":"那專責機構我上次有請衛福部到辦公室來討論他們就說目前的想法還是放在一個科科的一個概念我希望能夠升級到處的概念或者是說更高師的概念是不是那在照顧民族民族或者是三地離島因為以往都是放在一起照顧三地離島的一個族群來說你放在一個科的成績太低"},{"start":324.984,"end":325.184,"text":"謝謝委員的執行"},{"start":353.993,"end":382.064,"text":"我想盧醫師很清楚我們這幾十年來從我年輕的時候在參與健保署的衛生署的工作就是有一個專門的單位當然是科啦在負責我想您也很清楚幫忙非常的多那一直在推展那這些其實這些當時的科長後來也都比較晉升到相關重要的位置他們心目中還是一直關心著原住民的一個"},{"start":382.762,"end":395.263,"text":"一個一個一個推展那至於說是不是要用成立一個專走機構我想我們再來不是是一定要他是原尊民主基本法他有就是說他到底要到哪一個層次"},{"start":397.173,"end":397.333,"text":"對下一張。"},{"start":420.905,"end":442.12,"text":"那我們也都知道說我們在原住民地區照顧我們的都是衛生所我問一下院長你最近一次去衛生所被服務的時候是什麼時候我沒有我說我院長我要去打疫苗那什麼時候去年去年去年嗎那部長呢最近有去衛生所嗎"},{"start":443.676,"end":469.049,"text":"我當過衛生所主任。明年我77年我就當過衛生所主任了。最近有沒有到基層醫療打針。我希望你們有空的時候去山地離島的衛生所看一下。沒有問題。大概就是要討論山地離島的問題。我在當立委的時候也考察過原鄉的一個衛生所幾次。你有沒有去過山地的衛生所去就醫過?兩位有沒有?"},{"start":472.889,"end":483.64,"text":"如果有一天你去霧台的時候看一下齁,因為霧台距離最近的醫院大概一個小時以上的距離。那所有的遊客如果受傷或當地的居民需要藥物都是到那裡。"},{"start":484.568,"end":484.588,"text":"盧縣一"},{"start":506.392,"end":524.186,"text":"公共衛生服務體系升級策略有這樣的一個策略然後我們就看他到底做了哪些他說四個方向嘛就是第一個就是我們遠距的一個建構遠距的建構他說現在他設計的設置的5G場場域是52所可是知道現在3D離島的"},{"start":525.387,"end":525.407,"text":"韓國藝術院長"},{"start":543.118,"end":567.219,"text":"他建構的一個基礎建設是最重要的每次我們召集了很多病人到衛生所來然後要跟比如說長根的醫院要做一個媒合要做遠距醫療結果所有的速度都當在那邊然後也接不起來然後又又說是網路的問題所以常常就是因為網路建制的不夠所以這個遠距醫療我覺得真的是"},{"start":568.649,"end":580.076,"text":"我是你們說有有打成目標我是覺得感覺是非常的是有點在騙人因為我看那個服務量哈112年4952年4958年要處於全國全國五十幾個鄉下來是全年的"},{"start":586.019,"end":614.362,"text":"人數將實在是一天可能照顧不到一個病人所以我覺得這個部分應該是要加強它的基礎建設各地區的才能夠把真正的遠距醫療把它做好第二個就是我們所謂的衛生所整建、耐震補強這個我查到我們自己本身的3D的部分還有霧台箱它還在招標當中我覺得它的問題就是金額太低"},{"start":615.407,"end":633.696,"text":"你如果說只是兩百多萬你要怎麼去在偏遠地區蓋一個衛生室是從無到有的衛生室他不是整建喔他是完全重新蓋一個新的衛生室霧台鄉大武村那那個地方是非常偏遠啊你只有這樣的一個金額他誰會去標這個工程來做呢"},{"start":634.036,"end":634.256,"text":"第三個問題就是"},{"start":651.923,"end":679.591,"text":"你們說要強化醫師人員就是說要有彈性不過我看這邊報告上面寫目前符合的就是臺北跟屏東也就是說臺北跟屏東是完全沒有問題那我想舉例問一下因為現在禁用的我們的醫護人員幾乎他沒有所謂的族別限制語言限制所以他只要是現場OK的人他都可以進來也就是說背景比較重要"},{"start":680.424,"end":680.444,"text":"﹚盧縣一"},{"start":708.129,"end":716.641,"text":"呃他給他支持他的人來來當護理師不是這樣嗎好謝謝我容我回答一下嗯那第一個就是說"},{"start":717.543,"end":740.523,"text":"有關於基層的一個視訊演技醫療的設備我想這個就是我們多年來一直在強調的那一定要給錢給技術不然的話常常停頓在那裡其實它的效果也不好其實這個在30年前我們就一直在發展了但是真的還是希望"},{"start":741.824,"end":741.984,"text":"光在"},{"start":767.605,"end":786.001,"text":"澳洲在政府的一個投資大概972萬美金,這是他說他這幾年增加了大概38%,我們再看下一頁。又說今年增加了100萬美金,如果我們這樣看其實換算台幣的也沒有很多,大概3000多萬,我們看一下下一個。"},{"start":787.301,"end":811.66,"text":"那如果就紐西蘭來看就差很遠了紐西蘭的話大概就是BillionBillion的話就是30億紐幣的話也是將近是十幾億那如果是20億的對Primary Care的話就是20億20億的話如果乘以大概是70%的話是14億這是14億美金喔不是台幣喔那我們看下面"},{"start":812.858,"end":814.439,"text":"我最主要的凸顯就是說澳洲的投資只有大概是幾千萬美金"},{"start":840.034,"end":855.607,"text":"那紐西蘭會那麼進步在我們之上是因為他投入了幾十億美金我是要講的重點是這個那也就是說紐西蘭他一直認為說我們很像是他們毛利人很像把台灣當作母國嗎"},{"start":857.043,"end":857.063,"text":"﹚盧縣一"},{"start":883.59,"end":898.017,"text":"這個55歲以上長者的資料庫不要不要讀到了原住民然後原住民等一下找資料的時候這個又沒有辦法做實際的一個 survey所以應該這個東西應該是要跟剛才我們剛看的國會裡面的研究原住民的健康中心要"},{"start":899.143,"end":900.724,"text":"謝謝盧委員下一位我們請蘇清泉委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"154576","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154576","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb6182caa458835705ecaa09fb1100d58f4be0e42658b4167efd568562666524dd9f25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:10:43 - 11:26:31","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T11:10:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T11:26:31+08:00","duration":948,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":574,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時10分）謝謝主席。主席，我們先請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：卓院長好。院長，今天首先想跟院長討論少子女化的問題，我們都知道說，目前少子女化應該是國安問題，我想跟院長確認一下，我們現在新內閣有沒有把少子女化問題視為國安問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：從之前的內閣一直到現在，都把這個當作國家很重要的問題來做解決。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝院長。大家看一下最近的數據──近十年出生人數跟死亡人數的比較，其中近四年的出生率低於死亡率，坊間已經稱這叫生不如死的狀態，對於國人為什麼不願意生小孩，我想這有很多面向可以探討，但今天想要討論的是，提升女性勞動參與率跟外籍家庭幫傭放寬，還有家庭照顧假放寬等這些問題來就教一下我們院長，先從女性勞參率的部分來談，據去年國發會的統計，女性勞參率在30歲後逐年的下滑，整體勞參率就亞洲各國來看的話，日本、韓國的女性勞動參與率分別是53.5%跟53.3%，還是高於臺灣的50%；同為亞洲國家的新加坡也有64%；北歐國家瑞典是高達七成一，我想女性勞參率從30歲一路下降，就我的觀察，很大一部分原因是因為婚育的關係，婚育之後離開職場的女性，不管是在我們身邊也好，統計資料看起來也好，有很多女性為了家庭可能就會犧牲自己的工作，所以政府一直也希望能夠提高女性勞動參與率，我想這個是一個方向，但是到底怎麼做，我覺得這是政府需要來檢討的部分。","為什麼女性勞動參與率最近大家會比較關注呢？我想就從我們大專校院畢業生人數來看，我國女性受高等教育的比例，從數據上看起來其實跟男性不相上下，但在事實上還有現實面上，真的有很多女性因為家庭被迫放棄工作，不管是在家照顧幼兒也好，甚至照顧長輩，這些我想都是可以透過所謂聘請家庭幫傭來協助，讓真正有受過高等教育女性，有機會能夠回到職場去奉獻社會，而不是被綁在我們的家裡面，進行這些繁重的體力跟勞務。","所以今天第一個問題想討論的是，放寬臺灣家庭聘用外籍家庭幫傭的限制，我剛剛一直提到，這些女性不斷地被綁在家庭，而我的數據來自於哪裡？數據來自衛福部111年兒童及少年生活狀況調查報告，其中育有6歲以下學齡前兒童家庭的父母親，62%是雙薪家庭，即父母均有工作的家庭比例是61.7%，只有父親有工作的占32.4%，只有母親有工作是4.4%；如果依照工時來觀察，父親需要在週末工作的占44.6%，高於母親的30.2%，整體來講，平均工作時數，父親也是高於母親；從學齡前兒童父母親申請育兒留職停薪的狀況來看，母親申請育兒留停的比例是34%，爸爸只有6.4%，從數據很明顯看到多數時候都是媽媽在申請留停，平均申請留停的月數，媽媽是8.8個月，爸爸平均只有5.9個月；再看下一個數據，這是一個有趣的觀察，父母親沒有申請留職停薪的原因，媽媽的原因是因為這小孩已經有其他人的照顧了，占了37.7%，當時沒有在工作，占了31.5%；至於爸爸，爸爸的原因是有他人照顧，占51.1%；改由配偶申請，通常是媽媽，占26.8%，所以爸爸的原因有一部分是因為媽媽申請完了。如果從實際的照顧安排來看，0至3歲、未滿3歲部分，由父母親自己照顧的比例是42.5%；32.6%送到托嬰或各機構。但如果過了3歲，在幼稚園部分，就讀幼兒園比例高達91%，自己照顧的比例驟降到5.6%，這是衛福部的統計。所以0至3歲、3到6歲有一個很奇怪的節點：0至3歲、3到6歲送到外面照顧從32.6%增加到91.3%，增加六成，我合先敘明，並將數據跟院長、部長分享。為什麼我今天要特別提到放寬家庭幫傭機制？現代社會多數都是雙薪家庭，照顧小孩這件事情理論上是由父母雙親一起共同為之；但實務上，從我們剛剛看到的數據可知，很多時候變成媽媽要犧牲工作，回到家庭顧小孩，顧他的基本生理需求，陪伴他，這些工作很多時候就變成媽媽的責任。本席在坊間也聽到很多年輕就業女性的聲音，他們的確希望在家帶小孩時能有幫手，不知道院長認不認同在家帶小孩要有幫手的概念？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，如果能夠提供好的家庭帶小孩的環境的話，讓女性能夠再度參與勞動市場，對社會的生產力絕對是有幫助的。"],["黃委員健豪：再來，為什麼今天特別提到這點？因為實際上現在臺灣很多人聘用的是家庭看護工，依照巴氏量表規定，家庭看護工就是要來做家庭看護的工作。但實際上、社會的現實面上，很多人讓家庭看護工同時做了房舍清理、食物烹調、家庭成員起居照料，以及其他家事服務有關的工作。臺灣在面對這件事情上，在家事移工上，把家庭看護工跟家庭幫傭的工作混淆在一起，院長，你知不知道現實有這個狀態？"],["卓院長榮泰：社會上應該有存在這種狀態。"],["黃委員健豪：有存在這種狀態嘛！所以本席今天提出來，就是希望臺灣的法律不要這麼偽善，不要上有政策，下有對策。以過去所發生的實況來說，名義上請的明明是家庭看護工，但他來臺灣後卻變成家庭幫傭。當然，從事家庭幫傭如果被抓到的話會被罰錢的，按照就業服務法規定會有懲罰機制，但實際上就是有這個需求。所以我想問一下，目前行政院或勞動部願不願意往放寬家庭幫傭的方向來思考？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前思考的方式，我想請勞動部先說明。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，關於家庭幫傭的開放，過去在陳院長任內確實有討論過，主要是國內的保母團體很有顧慮，認為開放對幼兒成長未必好，也可能會衝擊國內保母的就業機會，所以這確實是一個需要考慮的問題。但是報告委員，我們現在已經開始規劃多元陪伴服務方案，這是我們最新嘗試的一個有彈性的、由NGO團體跟仲介合作聘請移工，讓移工受更優化的勞動條件保障，同時是彈性服務的，可以派往家庭照顧，不論顧老或顧小，這是一個可以用來取代家庭幫傭，一個還不錯的、新的嘗試的方法，這點我們正在規劃當中，希望能很快公布，並向貴院報告。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝部長。我也跟院長、部長分享，現在很多年輕的雙薪家庭所遇到的問題是，包含部長提到的保母問題在內，很多孩子從幼稚園下課或從保母家接回來之後，家長不管是爸爸或媽媽，兩人回到家裡還要面臨有很大量的家務要處理。處理家務時，同時他也要陪伴小孩，陪伴小孩當然有很多層次的問題啦，不管是陪伴他快樂的閱讀也好，還是說把他基本的生活起居照顧好也好，這個都是他下班之後要回來的這一段。所以我們今天提出來的問題，希望能夠解決的是針對少子化問題，希望讓這些家庭能夠在就業之外，就是我在上班、下班之後，我把小孩接回來之後，同時家裡面能有一個幫手去處理其他的雜務。","其實還有一個問題，因為現階段我們臺灣的法律，本國人跟外國人的規範是不一樣的嘛，部長應該很清楚，院長也應該很清楚。外國人在臺灣，高薪或是白領階級的，薪水達到一定程度的，我們是看他的薪資結構來決定他能不能請所謂的家庭幫傭，但對本國人的限制卻有很多條件，我覺得很多家庭最大的反映是說，現階段的規定是要6歲以下3個，我才能夠請幫傭，但外國人不用，外國人是只要薪資達到一定水準，他的生活條件達到一定水準，就能夠請幫傭，但政府對本國人的限制是你要生6歲以下且生3個，才能請幫傭。我想問一下，對於實務上的部分，院長、部長，你們覺得在臺灣現階段情況下、家庭結構下，有多少家庭是可以生3個6歲以下的小孩？很難吧，而且除了難達到之外，就算我今年達到了，我小孩明年7歲之後怎麼辦？就沒有了喔，但是6歲跟7歲，難道不需要有人照顧嗎？我想這不是現實面，尤其就算多請一個幫傭，不管是本國籍或外國籍，這個法令、這個規定應該要去檢討，我就算多請一個人，那個來幫忙的人，他一次要顧3個6歲以下的，我想一般人，各位、在座各位，有的當阿公阿嬤了，有的當過爸爸媽媽，一定也受不了這件事情，是吧？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在有一些建議，希望能夠彈性地來計算這種加權的分數，比方說家裡如果有獨居的老人，或是說年紀比較高的長者，或是兒童本身他有特別需要照顧的情況底下，我想的確有這些建議，而這些建議現在研議的方向怎麼樣，跟外界的討論跟交換意見到底怎麼樣，我請勞動部來說明一下。"],["何部長佩珊：是，跟委員報告，我們也有請我們的相關部門正在研究這方面點數的放寬，這個我們會來處理。"],["黃委員健豪：所以這個會期來不及了？這個要多久？應該說這個會期來不及，但這個檢討要多久？"],["何部長佩珊：我們會儘快來處理，我們會儘快來處理。"],["黃委員健豪：儘快，儘快多久？因為之前前部長也說會儘快處理啊，但是我想現在已經換部長了。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，這個就還是必須進行社會溝通，我們要跟相關的利益方都有一些討論之後，我們會儘快來處理這件事情。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我還是拜託院長跟部長，在這個事件上面，應該還是要朝放寬的方向，讓市場自由競爭，讓民眾、讓這些所謂的家庭，有顧小孩的家庭或打算生小孩的家庭，讓他有選擇的權利，而不是把他限制在某些條件裡面，我想這個是面對少子化要拿出一個務實的態度。當然理論很美好啊！但是現實就是很無感嘛，坦白說，我也知道，相關保母團體或者是很多的團體會有意見，但是回到真正的有照顧小孩需求的家庭，我們提出來的具體問題，他就是要面臨到我每天下班之後，或是一定要有一個人在家裡面犧牲自己的工作來照顧小孩，我們照剛剛衛福部統計的數據來看，通常真正犧牲自己工作的那個人就是媽媽，我想這對臺灣的女性勞參率會有很大的影響，所以我們希望能夠降低這個情況，那就是提供更多的選項，讓女性有機會回到就業市場，我不知道院長和部長是不是認同這樣的觀點？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員這個建議，我個人、我本人也認為有這個需求，我們如何來增加這個彈性的計算，更多元的來選擇，這個部分我想下半年我們來做一個決定，好不好？"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝院長。這個議題結束，接下來，我們來討論，最後兩分鐘我們討論一下我們臺灣溫室氣體的部分，臺灣溫室氣體排放前九大有七大都是屬於發電業，上週五也召開過第四次的碳費費率審議會，目前也沒有正確的一個結論，當然原因是什麼，原因就是，從我們統計的數字來看，如果能源部門的二氧化碳直接排放量占70%，但是現在的算法是把它算成間接排放，因為你賣出去之後，就算在消費者身上了，就賣給消費端了，所以這時候變成剩下14%。我想前一陣子環境部還甚至講說樹會造成空氣污染，大家都覺得那是因為你不敢拿碳排放高的發電業開刀，當然我也肯定你們現在把這個公告撤掉了，但是你從直接排放跟間接排放，從70%降到14%，把它轉嫁出去，我想原因是來自我們氣候變遷因應法第二十八條所謂的直接排放源跟間接排放源，還有提到間接排放源可以扣掉，我賣出去的不算，但是這有什麼問題？這會產生對業者來講、對民間業者來講、對這些製造業來講，我明明ESG做得很好，但是因為我的電我沒有得選啊！臺灣的發電結構就長這樣子，所以我必須去承擔這個成本，我不知道能夠把70%降到14%這個做法是環境部的意見還是經濟部的意見？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：這個是當時氣候法定義的結果，大多數的國家也這樣做，當然委員說得也對，有些國家是直接一起在算，但是我們那時候朝野協商訂的氣候變遷因應法就是照這樣的方式來處理。"],["黃委員健豪：我想因為你這樣做，對於後續以後在課徵碳費或者國外課徵碳稅的時候，對本國的產業會有很大的擔憂，我希望環境部能夠堅持你的立場，把前因後果講清楚，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝院長、部長。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝院長。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽的是南投市婦女會的朋友，歡迎你們！","下一位我們請盧縣一委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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院長今天呢想要先跟院長來討論首先討論這個少子女化的問題啊。 我們都知道說目前少子女化應該是國安問題。 我想確認一下院長我們現在新內閣有沒有把少子女化的問題視為國安問題。"},{"start":32.964,"end":56.13,"text":"一直是這從之前的內閣到現在都把這個當作很重要的國家重要問題來做解決。謝謝院長我想大家看到這個最近的數據近10年的出生人數跟死亡人數的這個比較近4年來我想這個出生率低於死亡率已經大家坊間稱為這叫生不如死的狀態那對於國人為什麼不願意生小孩我想有很多面向可以探討"},{"start":56.73,"end":70.329,"text":"但今天針對的部分想要討論說提升女性勞動參與率跟外籍家庭辦公放寬還有家庭照顧價放寬這些問題來救教一下我們院長我想先從這個女性勞參與率的部分"},{"start":71.485,"end":83.794,"text":"這個是去年國發會的統計女性勞參率30歲後逐年的來下滑那整體勞參率從亞洲各國來看的話日本韓國的女性勞動參與率分別平均還是有53.5跟53.3還是高於台灣的這個50%"},{"start":88.197,"end":102.419,"text":"那同為亞洲國家新加坡也有64%那北歐國家瑞典是高達7乘1我想這個女性勞參率下降30歲一路下降很大一部分原因就我的觀察來講是因為婚育的關係啊"},{"start":103.188,"end":122.528,"text":"因為婚姻之後離開職場的女性不管是我們身邊也好統計資料看起來也好有很多女性是為了家庭她可能要犧牲自己的工作所以政府一直也希望能夠提高女性的勞動參與率我想這個是一個方向但是到底怎麼做我覺得這個是政府需要來檢討的部分"},{"start":123.929,"end":149.766,"text":"為什麼這女性勞動參與率最近這裡會比較大家可以關注我想就從我們這個大專校院畢業生人出來看我想我們女性我國女性受到高等教育的這個學位在數據上看起來其實跟男性不相上下但在事實上還有現實面上真的有很多這個女性她因為家庭而被迫要放棄工作不管是在家照顧幼兒也好甚至照顧長輩這些我想都是"},{"start":150.026,"end":170.845,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":170.925,"end":185.23,"text":"那我剛提到說一直提到說這些女性不斷的被綁在家庭我的數據來自於哪裡數據來自於衛福部111年兒童及少年生活狀況調查報告的部分這個我國雙薪家庭就育有"},{"start":186.788,"end":208.355,"text":"6歲以下就血淋前兒童的家庭的這個父母親62%雙親家庭那父母均有工作的這個家庭就父母均有工作是61.7%那只有父親有工作的占32.4%那只有母親有工作是4.4%那如果依照工時來觀察父親需要在週末工作的占44.6%高於母親的"},{"start":211.116,"end":239.803,"text":"反正30.2那整體來講平均工作時數父親也是高於母親那從這個學齡前兒童申請育兒留職停息的狀況實際上來看母親申請育兒留停的比例是34%那爸爸呢只有6.4%這個是從數據上很明顯看到多數時候都是媽媽在申請留停那平均申請的留停的月數媽媽是8.8個月爸爸平均只有5.9個月那如果平均來看的話"},{"start":241.055,"end":269.485,"text":"再看下一個數據這個有趣的觀察這父母親你如果沒有申請留職銀行的原因的話媽媽的原因是因為這個小孩已經有其他人來照顧占了37.7%跟當時沒有在工作占了31.5%那換到爸爸呢爸爸的原因是因為這個有他人照顧51.1%那改由配偶通常是媽媽配偶來申請的話26.8%所以爸爸的原因有一部分是因為媽媽已經把我申請完了"},{"start":270.285,"end":292.796,"text":"那如果從這個實際的照顧安排的話,0至3歲未滿3歲的部分由父母親照顧的比例最高是42.5%父母親自己照顧。那麼32.6%是送出去托嬰或是各項機構。但是如果過了3歲到幼稚園的部分,就讀幼兒園的比例就高達91%,自己照顧的驟降到5.6%,這是這個衛福部的統計。所以看到0至3歲3到6歲有一個很奇怪的節點。"},{"start":299.482,"end":325.219,"text":"十三歲三到六歲突然間自己照顧呃送到外面照顧三十二點六升到九十一點三齁增加了六成齁這個數據先核心序名把這個數據給我們院長跟部長來分享那所以今天我要提到說為什麼今天特別提這個所謂家庭幫庸放寬的這個機制我想現代社會多數都是雙薪家庭的情況下面照顧小孩這件事情吶"},{"start":326.766,"end":326.806,"text":"﹚黃健豪"},{"start":350.854,"end":353.697,"text":"當然如果能夠提供好的這個家庭,帶小孩的這個環境的話,那讓女性能夠再次參與勞動市場,這個社會的生產力絕對是有幫忙的。"},{"start":375.897,"end":392.984,"text":"實務上我們知道為什麼今天特別提到這個案子就是因為實際上來講當然台灣現在有很多人聘用的是所謂的家庭看護工但他聘用家庭看護工他實際上理論上因為我們現在所謂的八四兩表他來是要來做這個家庭看護的工作但是實際上"},{"start":394.409,"end":416.015,"text":"社會的現實面上很多人其實把家庭看護工也同時的去做了所謂的從事房舍清理、食物棚條跟家庭成員起居照料跟其他家事服務有關的工作。就是台灣在面對這件事情上面在家事一共上面他把家庭看護工跟家庭幫傭的這個工作來把它混淆在一起。院長你知不知道有這個現實的狀態?"},{"start":418.667,"end":419.648,"text":"應該社會上存在這種狀態是有的。"},{"start":440.177,"end":459.216,"text":"但是家庭幫傭如果被抓到的話當然會被罰錢啦在按照我們的就業服務法裡面他當然會有這個懲罰的機制但是實際上就是有這個需求所以我想問一下我們目前的這個院內或是我們部內的看法願不願意往這個方向來放寬所謂家庭幫傭的方向來思考"},{"start":459.841,"end":481.57,"text":"目前試考的方式我想請勞動部先說明。關於這個家庭幫傭的開放,確實在過去的陳院長任內也都有討論過。主要是我們國內的保母團體,他們也很顧慮說這樣子的開放對幼兒的成長未必好。"},{"start":482.19,"end":489.058,"text":"那麼還有包括那個這個可能會衝擊國內保母的就業機會啦所以這確實是一個也必要考慮的問題可是委員我們現在已經開始規劃一個叫做多元陪伴服務方案那這是我們最近嘗試的一個有彈性的有NGO團體"},{"start":500.111,"end":516.971,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":516.971,"end":523.373,"text":"謝謝部長,我也跟院長跟部長分享當然現在家庭裡面尤其雙薪有現在很多年輕家庭他遇到的問題是說剛剛包含說部長提到的這個保姆的問題但是問題是說現在很多從幼稚園下課或是說從保姆家裡面接回來之後"},{"start":544.821,"end":564.043,"text":"他這個家長不管是爸爸或媽媽或雙邊他回到家裡面他還是要面臨很大量的家務他還是很多家務要處理那家務處理同時他也要陪伴小孩那陪伴小孩當然有很多這個層次的問題啦不管是這個陪伴他快樂的閱讀也好還是說把這個他基本的生活起居照顧好也好"},{"start":564.663,"end":592.313,"text":"這個都是他下班之後要回來的這一段所以我們希望今天提出來的問題說希望能夠解決的是讓這個少子化問題是希望讓這些家庭能夠在就業之外就是我在上班下班之後我把小孩接回來之後同時家裡面有一個幫手去處理其他的雜務因為其實還有一個問題我們現階段台灣的法律啊我們其實本國人跟外國人的這個規範是不一樣的嘛部長應該很清楚院長應該很清楚啊"},{"start":594.244,"end":616.992,"text":"所以外國人在臺灣高薪或是白領階級的他這個薪水一定程度的我們是看他的薪資結構來決定他能不能請所謂的這個家庭幫優但對本國人的限制有很多條件啊我覺得很多家庭最大的反應是說現階段的規定是要六歲以下三個我才能夠請啊"},{"start":617.93,"end":647.089,"text":"外國人不用啊,外國人是我只要心是達到一定水準,我的生活條件達到一定水準,我就能夠請。但你對本國人的限制,是你要生6歲以下生3個,我才能請。我想問一下這個實務上,院長跟部長,你們覺得在台灣現階段情況下面的家庭結構下面,有多少家庭他可以生6個,生3個6歲以下的人,是小孩,很難吧?而且這很難,達到這個我就算今年達到了,我小孩明年7歲之後怎麼辦?"},{"start":648.186,"end":648.206,"text":"院長﹖"},{"start":675.69,"end":696.084,"text":"現在有一些建議希望能夠彈性的來計算這種加權的分數,比如說家裡如果有獨居的老人或是說年紀比較高的長者或是兒童本身他有特別需要照顧的情況底下,我想有這些建議,這個建議現在研議的方向怎麼樣,跟外界的討論跟交換意見到底怎麼樣,勞動部來說明一下。"},{"start":697.725,"end":705.198,"text":"是各位報告我們也有這個請我們的相關部門正在研究這方面的點數的放寬吶這個我們會來處理所以這個會期來來不及了這個"},{"start":712.281,"end":712.301,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":735.867,"end":759.401,"text":"我還是拜託院長跟部長在這個事件上面應該還是要朝放寬的這個方向讓市場自由競爭讓民眾讓這些所謂的家庭有顧小孩的家庭或打算生小孩家庭他有選擇的權利而不是把他限制在某些條件裡面我想這個是面對少子化要拿出一個務實的態度當然理論很美好但是現實就是很骨感"},{"start":759.881,"end":778.363,"text":"坦白說我也知道說這個保姆團體或者是這個很多的這個團體會有意見,但是回到真正的有照顧小孩的家庭,我們提出來的具體的問題他就像面臨到我每天下班之後或是一定要有一個人在家裡面犧牲自己的工作來照顧小孩,"},{"start":778.863,"end":783.466,"text":"謝謝委員這個建議我個人我本人也認為有這個需求那我們如何來增加這個彈性的計算更多元的來選擇這個我想下半年我們來做一個決定好不好"},{"start":807.904,"end":835.012,"text":"好謝謝院長接下來這個議題結束我們來討論最後兩分鐘我們討論一下我們台灣溫室氣體的部分我想台灣溫室氣體排放前九大有七大這都是屬於發電業那我想上週五也召開過第四次的碳費費率審議會那我想目前也沒有正確的一個結論那當然原因是什麼原因就是因為我想從我們統計的數字來看如果"},{"start":836.394,"end":857.638,"text":"二氧,能源部門的二氧化碳排放量,直接排放量佔70%,但是現在的算法是把它算成進階排放,因為你賣給,賣出去之後就算消費者身上了,就賣給消費端了,所以這時候變成剩下14%,我想前陣子環境部還甚至講說,這個樹會造成空氣汙染,大家都覺得說那事業你不敢拿。"},{"start":858.318,"end":882.654,"text":"拜訪高的這個發電開刀啊當然我也是肯定說你們現在把這個這個公告撤掉了但是你從這個直接排放跟間接排放從70%交14%把它轉嫁出去我想這是原因是來自我們氣候變遷應用法裡面28條所謂的直接排放員跟間接排放員那還有提到說這個可以扣掉間接排放員可以扣掉我賣出去之後不算但是這有什麼問題這會產生對業者來講對民間業者來講對這些製造業來講"},{"start":888.258,"end":904.612,"text":"我明明ESG做得很好但是因為我的店我沒有得選啊我台灣的發電結構就長這樣子所以我必須去承擔這個成本我不知道這個能夠把70%加到40%這個做法是環境部的意見還是經濟部的意見部長"},{"start":906.413,"end":931.748,"text":"這個是當時氣候法定義的結果,那這個大多數的國家也這樣做。當然委員說的也對,有些國家是直接在一起在算,但是我們那時候朝野協商定了氣候變遷因應法,就是照這樣的方式來處理。我想林岳你這樣做啊,對於後續...以後在課偵探對,或者是以後在課偵探對的時候,對本國的產業會有很大改善,希望環境部能夠堅持你的立場,這個前後我們來把事情處理好嗎?"},{"start":938.347,"end":947.2,"text":"謝謝黃委員謝謝院長八月會現在在議場二樓旁聽的是南投市婦女會的朋友"}]}},{"id":"154575","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154575","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb61851195b24b7234cf5a09fb1100d58f4be0e42658b4167efd58317b6e95026e3165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:49:12 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11:05:01","影片長度":"00:15:49","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T10:49:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T11:05:01+08:00","duration":949,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時49分）有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：院長好。賴清德總統曾說要不分黨派，無論何人，只要涉及非法，檢調都應該查辦，毋枉毋縱。這句話我認同，所以在這邊我要先肯定鄭銘謙部長，因為鄭文燦涉貪案已經案經7年，邱太三不敢辦，然後蔡清祥不敢辦，最後鄭銘謙當部長之後，檢察機關終於動起來了。但我還是要提醒一下，就是希望我們的院長、法務部長跟檢察官不要犯三個選擇性的錯誤。雖然今天鄭文燦涉貪案已經開始辦了，但我還是要跟院長就教一下，有些東西我看不太懂，我常常覺得民進黨的首長、縣市長涉及貪瀆案，似乎有一個特權列車在裡面保護著他，先不講我剛剛前面講的，7年的案子好不容易等到賴清德總統上任了才解封，那前面的部長是幹嘛？吃閒飯，還是在吃案、壓案。第二個，我也很納悶，過去不管是辦高虹安的案子、辦楊文科的案子、辦林姿妙的案子，哇！不得了，兵分十八路、二十八路、三十八路、四十八路，檢調大舉搜索啊！鄭文燦不用耶！好好的沒事耶！能不能請教院長為什麼會有這樣的差別待遇啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是尊重檢調單位專業的調查……"],["羅委員智強：對啊！你尊重啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不論是哪一個人或是哪幾個人，不分黨派、不分個人。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你的尊重。不只如此，你會發現基本上我們的……當然這跟法務部也沒有關係，對不對？聲押的結果呢？送錢的收押，收錢的不押，我覺得鄭文燦真的是桃園經營得蠻好，連桃園地方法院，我看他經營都不錯了，所以有一些特權的待遇在鄭文燦身上就看到了它發生，但不管怎麼樣，今天我給鄭部長一個肯定，至少顯示你沒有壓案、吃案，至少此時此刻。但是我接下來也要請我們的行政團隊、請法務部跟檢察官可能要注意的一件事，事實上，鄭文燦過去所涉及的疑案，不只是林口工五擴大用地，鄭文燦過去有很多的案子，我也希望能夠一併好好的瞭解一下，我曾經說過全臺灣我最佩服的民進黨縣市長就是鄭文燦，因為鄭文燦曾經有天地水火四大政績，我不知道院長有沒有聽過鄭文燦的豐功偉業，天地水火四大政績是哪四大，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你啊！第一個天政績，桃園八德運動中心蓋完，馬上一個三級地震天花板塌光光，被笑稱是所謂最佳的地震體驗館，我請問一下，司法單位有沒有去瞭解一下有沒有偷工減料？到現在有沒有立案調查或是去瞭解一下，有沒有偷工減料？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們尊重整個桃園地檢署的偵辦，因為我們法務部也不參與……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你的尊重，起碼這次你尊重的結果，鄭文燦7年前的案子終於被辦了，所以部長，我今天是特別尊重你，你講的話我都接受。","第二個，什麼叫做地政績？平鎮的地下停車場在2020年4月蓋完就塌了，造成一死二傷的慘劇，中間有沒有偷工減料、人謀不臧？也拜託我們尊重地檢署的法務部長，你也是曾司我們司法正義的守門人，我也希望我們的檢察官也能夠好好瞭解一下。","第三個，水政績也很亮眼，楊梅區公所在2021年8月初，行政大樓因為颱風外圍環流降雨影響地下水位上升，導致結構體上浮45公分，形成楊梅水上飄的奇景，中間有沒有偷工減料，有沒有人謀不臧？","再來是什麼呢？火政績，蘆竹美福倉儲火在燒，連燒二十幾天，也創了臺灣火災燒的日數最久的一個紀錄，也是在鄭文燦市長的任內啊！所以我要講，今天不是辦這7年前的舊案，要辦就通通辦。第二個，我也想請教一下，當然外界有很多所謂的政治陰謀論，有人也擔心今天辦這個案子，7年前的這個案子到現在辦，可能會雷聲大雨點小，請問院長，你對於我們的檢察機關有沒有信心，會不會雷聲大雨點小？部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：除了尊重之外，就是按照證據跟事實來辦案，這個才重要。"],["羅委員智強：如果說今天鄭文燦涉貪事實明確，鄭部長有肩膀、有擔當來做檢察官的後循，讓他查辦到底嗎？有沒有肩膀？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官依法偵辦，我們希望就是詳細調查。"],["羅委員智強：你有沒有這個肩膀當檢察官的後盾？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們希望檢察官能夠勿枉勿縱，依法詳細調查，對於這個偵查的案件，我不能夠也沒辦法去指導。"],["羅委員智強：我講得很簡單，對於檢察官勇於任事，你作為法務部長、作為行政院長，就要擔當我們檢察官的後盾。","我就講另外一件事，這位檢察官辦了鄭文燦的案子之後，現在不得了了，變渣男了你有沒有發現？部長有沒有發現？媒體開始去挖他的私生活，開始去打擊他。我要跟部長跟院長說，勇於任事的檢察官不分黨派，今天偵辦弊案，行政團隊就要給予支持，也請部長今天能當檢察官的後盾。","當然還是有一件事，我也不希望今天是雷聲大雨點小，外面有很多人在講，因為鄭文燦在過去跟賴清德總統有諸多恩怨，賴清德總統跟鄭文燦在楚魏之爭當中，有很多宮廷的糾結。因為鄭文燦桃園雖然選舉成績不理想，但是最近新北市長民調高，然後接下來打他一槍，把他的新北市長打掉之後，然後雙方各退一步，接下來的弊案就不了了之。我希望到最後不要變成政治交換啦！可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我認為絕對不要用這種不正確的邏輯來看一個司法的案件。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝，我希望這個邏輯不正確，但我們就等著看，看看鄭文燦的案子最後會不會走向這個不正確的結果？","第三個我要講，我講的第三個選擇性，抱歉，不是只有鄭文燦案，過去民進黨8年執政真的是弊絕風清，原來就是蓋牌效應造成的，不辦就沒弊案了啊！7年前的案子到現在才開始，還要等賴清德上任，新官上任三把火，開始要辦了，我是肯定啦！今天不分黨派辦弊案，賴清德總統我肯定他，但是不要選擇性，不要跟我講說只有鄭文燦，林智堅的新竹棒球場，請問到現在的進度是什麼？部長你知道嗎？不要再跟我講尊重地檢署檢察官了！你對通案也該有瞭解的責任啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：凡民眾有告發，檢察官就會依法偵辦，這部分本部的立場我們是不會去檢討、干涉、介入案子的處理。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，石沈大海，我直接跟你講，我比你更瞭解，沒消沒息沒下文。第三個，另外一位現在貴為民進黨秘書長的林右昌，我來跟大家講，你有沒有發現東岸停車場的問題，大日公司向基隆市政府承租商場，然後當二房東將商場經營權包給NET，每月收租250萬元，每年收租3,000萬元，規避商場全年總營業額7億元未計入契約會計營收報表，造成8年經營權權利金是0元，政府短收近25億元。還發生大日公司跟基隆市政府還沒有決議增建前，就急急忙忙準備增建。被先斬後奏之後，結果基隆市政府遲遲沒有去申報產權，差點讓公共財產被用來圖利民間企業。最後大日公司被查出在其他同性質的案件當中爆發弊案被解約，民間訴訟歸民間訴訟，即便涉及非常多公權力的弊病，可是到現在為止也有沒有看到檢方有任何人動起來啊！","事實上法院之前已經有很明確的地方法院判決，已經講基隆市政府與大日公司約定，由大日公司出資，系增建物完成後闢為商場，由基隆市政府取得。結果你可以看到，還有包括增建部分納入後續委託的營運範圍，並由大日公司營運，判定NET的主富公司，就是判定大日的求償是敗訴的，還謝國樑公道。這牽扯兩件事情，我在這邊也要提醒部長，不要民進黨的縣市長遇到任何爭議的東西就有特殊待遇啊，像鄭文燦可以壓案7年現在才開始動起來，那林智堅呢？那林右昌呢？請問要不要瞭解一下，為什麼不登記產權？為什麼當初留下這麼大的一個問題，讓後面基隆市政府必須跟NET公司對簿公堂，不就是因為裡面涉及的疑雲重重嗎？所以這一個，我也希望我們部長、院長好好的去查辦一下。","接下來我想請教一下院長，我們臺南市區漁會理事長林士傑被槍擊身亡一案，請問目前掌握的狀況如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，早上我們已經邀集內政部跟法務部部長、警政署長以及刑事警察局的局長，就這個案件再做一次的會報，現在我們不鎖定任何的動機，就是讓他能夠廣泛地去調查，也不排除任何的可能，現在專案小組已經啟動，有若干的掌握，但是現在都不便對外說。"],["羅委員智強：我跟院長、部長說，態度更積極一點，你上面有一個眼睛看著，你知道誰在看著你嗎？賴清德在看著你。今天林士傑在不久之前才捲入正副議長的賄選案、恐嚇案被訴，女兒是民進黨現任的市議員，過去你看到臺南市爐渣案、光電案，陳宗彥、陳凱凌接受性招待案、正副議長賄選案，再加上這一次正副議長賄選案的重大關係人竟然被槍殺，我覺得民進黨很對不起臺南人欸！民進黨臺南執政這麼久，政風敗壞、弊案疑雲重重，現在還發生槍擊命案，請問這是民進黨長期治理下的臺南嗎？請問這是賴清德總統治理過的臺南嗎？今天臺南這樣的事情，是民進黨對不起臺南人啊！多年下來，臺南被經營變成是一個犯罪城市嗎？我不知道院長你怎麼看？你會覺得賴清德很關切這件事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統關切所有地方的治安問題，我認為臺南地方檢警單位要加油！"],["羅委員智強：對，沒錯！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也要求中央部會要直接對臺南這個事件特別特別的重視，希望能夠儘快釐清出來，哪裡有缺失，哪裡就改善。"],["羅委員智強：好，我希望院長這句話不是空口白話。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["羅委員智強：希望能夠真正努力去做、去執行，不然說真的，臺南這些事情，我覺得民進黨賴清德顏面也掛不住啊！終究是他主政過的臺南市，這顏面怎麼會掛得住呢？","我接下來請教你一個問題，您覺得民進黨執政8年，司改成績如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然有待努力。"],["羅委員智強：有待努力，非常謙虛，不錯。事實上台灣民意基金會今年4月公布的民調，司法改革是最後一名，只有35.6%滿意，不滿意高達54.6%。我想請教一下，目前我們可以看到其中司法最不讓人家信任的有一件事情，就是偵查不公開沒有落實。院長，你有掌握到吧？我們偵查不公開，我不要講你沒有落實，我就講別的事情，講現在的事情，林姿妙案、高虹安案跟楊文科案，乃至於現在鄭文燦案，很不好意思，你有沒有發現一個問題？所有案情全部媒體都報光光欸！院長，你有注意到吧？部長有注意到吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是偵查不公開的，我們在5月30號也召開了一個精進的研商會……"],["羅委員智強：我幫你講結論，因為我時間也沒有了啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分……"],["羅委員智強：7,255件被檢討的案子裡面，檢察官起訴0件，行政處分十幾件啦！偵查不公開，變成偵查大公開，拜託我現在也要求修法法制化，希望兩位支持啦！謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分其實我們會把不成立、不處分的也要公開簡要的原因，不是只有單純一個數據，這個請委員放心，我們是認為沒有再修法的必要。"],["羅委員智強：沒有關係，我們慢慢討論，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，也謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，司法及法制組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息5分鐘，休息之後進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時5分）","繼續開會（11時10分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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有沒有肩膀"},{"start":371.472,"end":377.655,"text":"對於我講的很簡單對於檢察官勇於認識你作為法務部長作為行政院長就要擔當我們檢察官的後盾我就講另外一件事啊"},{"start":397.183,"end":410.862,"text":"這位檢察官辦了鄭文燦的案子之後,現在不得了了,變渣男了,你有沒有發現?部長有沒有發現?媒體開始去挖他的私生活,開始去打擊他。我要跟部長跟院長說,"},{"start":412.628,"end":428.27,"text":"有餘認識的檢察官不分黨派今天偵辦弊案行政團隊就要給予支持也請部長今天能當檢察官的後盾當然還是有一件事我也不希望今天是雷聲大雨點小"},{"start":429.346,"end":443.034,"text":"外面很多人在想因為鄭文燦對不對在過去跟賴清德總統有諸多恩怨賴清德總統跟鄭文燦在處位之爭當中有很多的宮廷的糾結"},{"start":444.417,"end":446.339,"text":"我希望不要到處變政治交換啦,可不可以?"},{"start":465.433,"end":493.574,"text":"我認為絕對不要用這種不正確的邏輯來看一個司法的案件。謝謝,我希望這個邏輯不正確,但我們就等著看。看看鄭文燦的案子最後走向你這個不正確的結果。第三個我要講,我講第三個選擇性,抱歉,不是只有鄭文燦案。過去民進黨八年執政真的是避絕風輕,原來就是蓋牌效應造成的。不判就沒閉案啊。"},{"start":495.256,"end":516.453,"text":"七年前的案子到現在才開始還要賴清德總上任新官上任三把火開始要辦了我是肯定啦今天不分黨派辦B案賴清德總統我肯定他但是不要選擇性不要跟我講說只有鄭文燦林志堅新竹棒球場請問到現在進度是什麼部長你知道嗎"},{"start":518.712,"end":545.302,"text":"你不要再跟我講尊重地檢署檢察官了啦!你對通案也該有了解的責任啦!反正有民眾有告發那個檢測就會依法偵辦那這部分我們本部的立場我們是不會去...我告訴你!磁塵大海我直接跟你講比你更了解沒銷沒洗啦沒下文啦!第二個第三個我們另外一位現在貴為民進黨秘書長的林佑昌我來跟大家講"},{"start":546.854,"end":566.981,"text":"你也發現東岸停車場的問題齁有沒有發現這個大日公司齁像基隆市政府齁曾租商場然後將惡房東將商場經營權包給Net每月收租250萬元每年收租3000萬元規避商場全年總營業額7億元未記錄契約會計營收報表造成8年經營權權利金是0元"},{"start":576.383,"end":584.78,"text":"政府短收近25億元還發生大日公司跟基隆市政府還沒有決議徵件前就急急忙忙準備徵件"},{"start":585.987,"end":613.701,"text":"被先斬後奏之後結果呢基隆市政府遲遲沒有去申報產權差點讓公共財產被用來圖利民間企業最後大日公司被查出在其他同性質的案件當中爆發弊案被解約民間訴訟歸民間訴訟啊但即便涉及非常多公權力的弊病可是到現在為止我也沒有看到我們的檢方有任何動起來啊"},{"start":614.693,"end":637.399,"text":"事實上法院之前已經還明確的一個地方法院的判決,已經講基隆市政府與大日公司約定由大日公司出資,細增建物完成後批為商場,由基隆市政府取得。結果呢,你會看到還有包括增建部分納入後續委託營運範圍由大日公司營運,判定"},{"start":637.919,"end":639.48,"text":"那林志堅呢?那林佑昌呢?"},{"start":666.918,"end":688.785,"text":"請問要不要了解一下為什麼不登記產權為什麼今天當初留下這麼大的一個問題讓後面基隆市政府必須跟內的公司對簿公帑這不就是今天裡面涉及的疑雲重重嗎這個我也希望我們的部長能夠好好的我們院長好好的去查辦一下接下來我就要講我想請教一下院長"},{"start":693.151,"end":701.626,"text":"我們這個臺南市區與會理事長林士傑被槍擊身亡一案。請問目前掌握狀況如何?"},{"start":703.17,"end":727.827,"text":"報告委員早上我們已經邀集內政部跟法務部部長警政署長以及刑事警察局的局長就這個案件再做一次的匯報那現在我們不鎖定任何的動機就是讓他能夠廣泛的去調查那也不排除任何的可能那現在專案小組已經在啟動有若干的掌握但是現在都不變對外說我跟院長說跟部長說態度更積極"},{"start":731.564,"end":746.832,"text":"你上面有一個眼睛看著你,你知道誰在看著你嗎?賴清德在看著你。今天林士傑在不久之前才捲入政府議長的會選案、恐嚇案背書。女兒是民進黨現任的市議員。"},{"start":749.738,"end":778.81,"text":"那過去你看到台南市盧渣案、光電案、陳宗彥、陳凱琳接受性招待案、政府議長會選案再加上這一次政府議長會選案重大關係人竟然被槍殺我覺得民進黨很對不起台南人耶民進黨台南執政這麼久陣風敗壞、弊案雲雲、疑雲重重然後現在還發生什麼呢槍擊命案"},{"start":780.017,"end":781.678,"text":"總統關鍵所有地方的治安問題我認為臺南的地方檢警單位要加油"},{"start":811.017,"end":836.616,"text":"我們也要求我們中央部會要直接對臺南這個事件特別特別的重視希望能夠儘快的能夠釐清出來之後哪裏有缺失哪裏就改善我希望這個院長這句話不是空口白話希望能夠真正努力來去做到執行不然說真的臺南這些事情真的我覺得你民進黨耐心得你連面也掛不住啊"},{"start":837.81,"end":839.13,"text":"實際上在這個臺灣民意基金會今年4月公布的民調"},{"start":861.789,"end":889.144,"text":"司法改革是最後一名,只有35.6%滿意,不滿意高達第1,54.6%。那我想請教一下,目前來說的話,我們可以看到就是,其中司法最不讓人家信任有一件事情就是,掙扎不公開,沒有落實嘛。院長你有掌握到吧?我們掙扎不公開,我不要講沒有落實,我就講別的事情,講現在的事情。"},{"start":890.182,"end":904.781,"text":"林志妙案﹚這個高雄灣案﹚跟楊文科案﹚乃至於現在鄭文燦案很不好意思啊你有沒有發現一個問題所有案情全部媒體都逗光光了耶院長你有注意到吧部長有注意到吧"},{"start":906.833,"end":928.192,"text":"這部分是偵查不公開的,我們是在5月30號也召開的一個精進的研修會。我幫你講結論啦,因為我時間也沒有了啦。那這部分齁。7255件被檢討案子裡面檢察官起訴零件啦,行政處分十幾件。偵查不公開變偵查大公開,拜託我現在也要求修法法制化,希望兩位。"},{"start":931.135,"end":949.292,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"154574","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154574","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb618c01cfe252f95dc9ba09fb1100d58f4beceec261fe3d6156a1e7a2a83f9da65db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"10:21:48 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10:37:48","影片長度":"00:16:00","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T10:21:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T10:37:48+08:00","duration":960,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":427,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（10時21分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員若華：院長好！本席今天要跟院長討論的是觀光還有地方的交通建設。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱委員若華：首先我們來看到，桃園是個年輕的城市，不僅是國門之都，而且擁有豐富的自然資源和文化歷史，為觀光發展提供了許多機會，是很多國際旅客到訪臺灣的第一站；桃園市政府也持續積極地推動北橫精緻旅遊，藉此延長遊客停留的時間，深度體驗北橫之美，請問中央可以提供哪些資源協助桃園市政府、協助改善我們地方的旅宿及旅遊環境，以創造旅遊商機並促進地方就業？"],["卓院長榮泰：請李部長說明。"],["李部長孟諺：是，跟委員報告，我們這幾年有補助桃園市政府辦理相關觀光遊憩設施的興建跟提升，大概投入了9.7億；另外，最近也核定了像珍珠海岸、竹圍、永安漁港這邊的部分；另外，在活動上也有很多協助，或是跟市府合辦的案子，大概這三年我們統計起來就有26個案子，像大溪的豆干節、大溪的一些觀光企業……"],["邱委員若華：部長，我們先針對北橫這個地方。"],["李部長孟諺：是，我想北橫的部分，主要這邊可能還要再跟原住民有一些協商……"],["邱委員若華：是，沒錯，因為桃園市政府是在108年的時候就辦理劃設北橫國家風景區並於今年7月的時候函送北橫地區的環境資源調查還有評鑑作業到交通部觀光署，後續仍須經評鑑，如部長所說部落會議需要過半數決議同意的程序，才能夠成立國家風景區。交通部觀光署周署長在今年3月在交通委員會本席質詢的時候，署長有指出目前還有兩項需要來克服，這部分需要院長來協助，第一個就是原住民部落還需經過部落會議的討論；第二個是相關部會之間的橫向協調，譬如說農業部、環保署、原民會，本席當場也請周署長協助。這項計畫一度被中央擱置，是因為涉及復興區原住民部落的權益，這部分可以請部長、院長來協助召開原住民部落會議嗎？因為這個會議需要一個、一個部落的會議召開，難度非常高，這個也需要院長的協助，院長能夠承諾嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：針對這個部分，跨部會這個我們一定會來處理，就是院裡面還有部裡面大概會就相關部分，像跟石門水庫有關……"],["邱委員若華：本席希望知道什麼時候能夠召開這個會。"],["李部長孟諺：但是原住民的諮商因為部落有自主權，可能不是我們能夠以行政指導處理，不過我們會請原民會從旁協助。"],["邱委員若華：什麼時候可以召開？"],["李部長孟諺：您是說跨部會的會議還是……"],["邱委員若華：跨部會的會議以及橫向的溝通。"],["李部長孟諺：是，我們其實都有持續協商，這些協商的成果跟目前還待克服的問題，我會整理一份跟委員說明。"],["邱委員若華：因為是我們地方……"],["李部長孟諺：那個會議其實是持續召開的。另外，北橫有很多很豐富的觀光資源，像拉拉山。"],["邱委員若華：沒錯。"],["李部長孟諺：我們支持這邊透過劃設為國家風景區，促成它提升觀光。"],["邱委員若華：我們看到復興，接下來我們看桃園大溪，桃園大溪名列全國十大觀光小城，依據交通部觀光署公布的112年度觀光休憩據點人次統計，我們大溪老城區在遊客造訪桃園排名第一。既然大溪老街是一個絕佳的旅遊地點，也受入境遊客喜愛，中央應該協助大溪，改善大溪地方的交通。以地方期盼能有第三座聯外橋梁為例，桃園市政府正在規劃大溪兩岸跨橋橋梁的設計，以解決目前聯外交通只能靠武嶺橋還有崁津大橋的狀況，因為每到假日地方的交通可說是以塞爆形容，嚴重影響地方的觀光。待規劃設計方案完成，中央是否能夠補助桃園？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長有說明，再繼續說明一下。"],["李部長孟諺：大溪確實有老街、有非常多古蹟還有特色美食，也有很漂亮的風景，整個觀光其實非常蓬勃。剛剛您提到要增設橋梁，我們會後會跟國土署一起研商，看怎麼樣協助市府促成這個事。"],["邱委員若華：大溪的美食跟文化、歷史算是軟實力，我們需要硬體建設，這第三座橋梁地方民眾都樂觀其成，希望部長、院長可以協助這一筆經費，儘快召開會議。","另外，我們看到捷運綠線延伸到大溪一案，桃園市政府在送可行性研究報告，修正之後請中央加速辦理審議作業，並請交通部儘快提出板龍快速道路可行性評估報告，這一部分院長可以承諾嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：綠線現在進行的工程，我們在4月已經核定它的綜合規劃，現在哪一段路要先……總經費到八百多億，這個是大的工程計畫，站到站之間會先讓它通車，希望能夠在115年先行通車。目前的計畫這樣進行當中，目標是希望能夠在119年讓它全線通車，這是綠線的部分，計畫就是這樣在走。"],["李部長孟諺：委員提到延伸到大溪，這個部分我們在去年11月有把審查意見給市政府，市政府現在還在修正。它如果修正報上來，我們會以協助的角度，希望協助他們……"],["邱委員若華：現在中央和市政府的共識是希望這一條大溪捷運綠線可以延伸到老街，我們也希望能在提出修正報告之後儘快辦理。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["邱委員若華：我們都希望可以藉由觀光帶動地方的經濟發展，但前提是交通建設要完善，也希望中央持續給桃園支持。部長，請大力協助。","其次，我們臺灣除了入境的觀光旅客，還有過境臺灣的轉機客，我國每年約有500萬名轉機客。今年3月交通部表示，有著手吸引轉機客入境旅遊，像是針對東南亞等國家有24小時、48小時、72小時等方案，也要爭取移民署可以同意，後來為什麼沒有進度了？"],["李部長孟諺：原來是想說這些轉機客，如果能夠協助……他過去如果在別的先進國家也有簽證，我們就可以同意他免簽。但是跟移民署討論，確實過去有一些狀況不是很理想，譬如失聯等狀況，所以目前比較保守因應。我們在觀光諮詢會議還會再持續討論這個部分，看有沒有機會還是適度放寬，讓這些國際轉機的民眾可以順道來臺灣旅遊。"],["邱委員若華：預計什麼時候可以開放？"],["李部長孟諺：這個部分因為移民署他們有一些考量，所以還需要再進一步溝通協調。"],["邱委員若華：為什麼會提到轉機客？因為院長您於5月30號行政院院會聽取交通部「拓展觀光新亮點帶動兆元產業」報告後表示，請交通部要持續透過多元管道擴大宣傳，吸引國際旅客，早日順利達成千萬旅客來臺的目標，可是我們看到原本設定的目標1,200萬人次，到3月底已經下修至1,000萬人次了，上上周部長也說到，截至6月底來臺的國際旅客大約是380萬人次，距離1,000萬人次這個數字還有很大的努力空間，部長，你也很有信心的說，年底是觀光旅遊的旺季，既然很有信心，那能夠承諾不會二度下修嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：我們會來努力，我想今年1,000萬的目標確實是有受0403花蓮地震的影響，因為太魯閣目前還沒有辦法開放，很多國際旅客其實是受到太魯閣的吸引，所以要怎麼樣找到替代的遊程，另外加強國際的宣傳等等，我們會來努力，我們的目標還是不變，會持續來努力。"],["邱委員若華：因為本席看到啟動全新臺灣觀光新品牌其中有提到環島亮點捲動國旅，我想不只是花蓮，全臺的旅遊都可以來發展。"],["李部長孟諺：像最近阿里山鐵路的開通、恢復行駛，阿里山高山鐵路在世界也是非常稀有、非常珍貴，我們會針對臺灣幾個有特色的景點再加強國際宣傳，希望能夠吸引更多的國際旅客來臺灣旅遊。"],["邱委員若華：院長，賴清德總統擔任行政院長的時候曾經表示過，推動重大建設是行政團隊支持國家發展經濟、壯大臺灣的基礎，政府會持續建設臺灣，讓交通四通八達，促進地方的發展，地方建設不分黨派，您同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是。"],["邱委員若華：請看簡報，包括國道3號增設桃園八德交流道工程、交流道用地經費補助、推動桃園市快速道路可行性評估、桃園市機場捷運1200月票營收款補助比例、桃園市市區客運虧損補貼等10項，我們桃園市的交通建設正在發展，有很多重大的交通建設工程都在進行中，桃園市政府為了配合賴清德總統提出的桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，正在推動桃園未來包括城中快速道路等三條完善快速道路系統之可行性評估，院長，您可否同意補助8,900萬元的經費？"],["卓院長榮泰：桃竹苗大矽谷這個案子是牽涉到整個高科技產業的發展，在桃園地區現在已經好的基礎應該是好上加好，所以健全它的交通建設當然是重要的，也非常謝謝剛剛委員的上一張圖把很多桃園地區的基礎建設都明列出來，現在我們在均衡臺灣的理念底下，必須做全國性統一的規劃，包括已經擬訂的140項地方基礎建設，我們會逐步來推動，其他還沒有納進來的部分當然還是有機會，我們希望在未來的公務預算當中能夠有餘力納入更多，這部分的資料我們再來詳閱。"],["邱委員若華：可以儘速將這8,900萬元的經費納入計畫嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：我先跟您報告，板龍快速道路還有新梅龍快速道路的經費都已經有了，有的已經招標，有的正在招標階段，所以已經在進行。我會再瞭解這兩條之外，委員是不是還有提到其他快速道路的規劃，我們再看怎麼樣來跟市政府協調。"],["邱委員若華：我們看到國3增設八德交流道的用地費是11.19億，由市府負擔，另外的新闢聯絡道工程部分也是由市府負責，經費71.89億，總經費高達83億，對市府來說負擔相當沉重，如果要等市政府經費全數到位，恐影響到115年中的動工目標，因此建請中央補助，以利加速推動，請問院長可以同意這項費用由交通部來補助嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員說的是這個大鶯豐德交流道？"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個計畫已經核定了，目前在辦理設計和作業當中。中央和地方的經費分配比例已經在核定當中明列了。"],["李部長孟諺：跟您報告，其實……"],["邱委員若華：這個是由市府負擔的部分……"],["李部長孟諺：其實在79.65億當中，中央就負擔工程費68億，地方只負擔用地費11億，所以對地方來講……而且這個是全國統一的規定，就是各地要增設交流道都是由地方負擔用地費，中央協助工程費的部分。那比例上看起來我們的……"],["邱委員若華：我們今天沒有要討論財劃法，地方就是因為經費拮据，所以要請交通部及院長協助。"],["李部長孟諺：我們的負擔已經是桃園的六倍。"],["卓院長榮泰：中央負擔68億，用地費11億，是這個案子核定當時的比例分配。"],["李部長孟諺：而且是全國的……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，全國的比例都是用地費由地方負擔。"],["邱委員若華：市政府負擔的費用也達83億啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：總經費是79億。"],["邱委員若華：地方道路、新闢道路的工程費用。"],["李部長孟諺：所以委員指的是，因為桃園這次有很多增設的交流道或者增設的道路，這些累計起來……"],["邱委員若華：總不能一條高速公路做好了，可是沒有聯絡道吧？"],["李部長孟諺：我整個再整理一下，因為我記得桃園大概有4、5個交流道都在增設當中。"],["邱委員若華：好，請部長回去再提供本席書面資料。","6月13日交通委員會的交通業務報告提到，八德非常重要的捷運三鶯線延伸至八德段計畫，國發會已經審查通過，接下來在行政院核定後即可興建，當時本席有請部長一起協助，部長也答復會協助本席再向行政院反映。而國發會審議核定，本案的綜合規劃報告書修正版已經報院，後續的行政院審核進度目前到哪裡了？"],["李部長孟諺：目前我的瞭解是國發會已經審議、報院，院在陳核的階段。"],["邱委員若華：陳核階段？已經陳核了半個月，因為本席當時提到這個有時間上面的急迫性，希望行政院可以儘速核定。"],["李部長孟諺：當時我們有跟新北市提，就是它的後續擴充的招標可以先行處理，不用等到這個的核定。當時有跟新北市達成共識，不會受這個的影響。"],["邱委員若華：當時也提到，因為沒有契約的關係，若屆時期滿，可能會更換新的廠商，那到時就不是數十億經費，而是數百億經費了。"],["李部長孟諺：這個細節我再跟您報告。"],["邱委員若華：也請再向院長說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，如果已經報到院裡面來，我馬上去瞭解這個公文現在到哪個程度。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝主席。"],["主席：也謝謝卓院長。","楊曜委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","一、澎湖縣地區空中運輸量能不足，請交通部研議解決方案？","問題：面對國際旅遊已恢復正常，先前各家航空公司支援澎湖空中運輸的中大型客機都已回歸國際線；且未來金馬地區開放小三通後，空中運輸勢必需求增加，又根據民航局所提供資料，以臺北─澎湖航線為例，113年5月所提供之座位數，與去年同期相比，減少21%（-36,542個），顯見各大社群媒體澎湖縣居民反映沒有機票前往台灣就醫等問題，並非無病呻吟，已成為常態性問題，若交通部民航局再不積極面對，提前盤點運能，國內航空公司並無事先調配運能，預留國際線中大機型飛機來加入國內航空運輸行列，以目前國內航空運能來看，將無法負荷澎湖、金門、馬祖三離島之航空運輸航運，交通部如何調節空運量能，盤點出運能，避免居民往返臺灣就醫需久候機位，影響澎湖居民權益？","二、如何解決澎湖觀光產業季節性缺工問題？","問題：旅宿業缺工問題已存在許久，政府協助產業改善因為COVID-19疫情造成的缺工問題，勞動部2023年5月起推動「疫後改善缺工擴大就業方案」，只要是缺工產業的雇主開出符合薪資條件的專案職缺，勞動部就會專案推介勞工給雇主，若推介成功，也會發出就業獎勵給勞工；目前符合資格產業包含旅宿業、餐飲業及航勤業等，而勞動部於今年6月25日表示，因旅宿業及餐飲業都認為還需要協助，因此協助方案將施行到年底，但就澎湖觀光產業特性而言，有明顯淡旺季之分，觀光旺季期間（四月至九月）勞動人力需求甚大，但一般時期較無明顯人力需求，為此，請教交通部觀光署，要如何協助解決澎湖觀光產業季節性缺工問題？","三、為因應國旅預期衰退，本席要求交通部提出振興澎湖秋冬國旅因應方案，目前規劃進度及預算來源為何？","問題：由於出國旅遊已恢復常態化，可以預期的是國旅市場衰退，特別是澎湖觀光產業受創將更嚴重，我也要求交通部要規劃相關方案，以因應國旅衰退的問題，在今年四月底交通委員會至澎湖考察時，我也提出，針對從2025年十月起，觀光署需於秋瘋季新辦大型帶狀活動，延續觀光熱度，吸引旅客秋冬到澎旅遊，振興澎湖秋冬旅遊，延長當地觀光季節，也獲得時任王國材部長的認同，並責成觀光署，請周永暉署長逐年編列預算請問觀光署目前規劃進度及預算來源為何？","四、請交通部協助澎湖縣儘速提出申請幸福巴士/小黃計畫","問題：交通部從2016年起，為了落實偏鄉行的正義及照顧偏鄉民行需求，推動幸福巴士及幸福小黃計畫，發展非典型的公共運輸服務，透過多元、彈性的運具與服務模式，並鬆綁相關法令規定，協助地方政府完善偏鄉公共運輸，將偏鄉公共運輸涵蓋率由2016年的七成，提升至2023年6月底的九成一，另外也鬆綁法規導入民間資源，讓在地個人或團體可以參與公共交通服務，據交通部所提供資料，近二年澎湖縣望安鄉、七美鄉皆有申請幸福巴士，望安鄉已於去年年5月通車營運，目前營運四條路線、七美鄉預計今年五月通車營運，營運三條路線，目前幸福巴士營運路線皆僅限於澎湖的離島鄉，馬公本島仍未有幸福巴士/小黃的營運，但澎湖縣主要人口多居住於馬公本島，但澎湖縣公車有班距過長問題，為便利長者就醫等需求，請問交通部協助澎湖縣儘速提出申請幸福巴士/小黃計畫？"],["主席：報告院會，交通組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息10分鐘；休息之後進行司法及法制組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（10時38分）","繼續開會（10時49分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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":504.569,"text":"那預計什麼時候可以來做開放呢?這個部分因為移民署單位他們有一些考量所以還需要再進一步溝通協調。因為會提到轉機客因為院長您於5月30號行政院會聽取交通部拓展觀光新亮點帶動兆元產業。"},{"start":507.011,"end":528.136,"text":"報告後表示請交通部要持續透過多元管道擴大宣傳吸引國際旅客早日順利達成千萬旅客來臺的目標可是我們看到原本設定從1200萬的人次已經到3月底已經下修至1000萬人次了那上週部長也說到截至6月底"},{"start":529.149,"end":545.307,"text":"來臺的國際旅客大約是380萬人是嗎?那距離1000萬人是這個數字還有很大的努力空間。部長你也很有信心的說年底是觀光旅遊的旺季那既然很有信心能夠承諾不會再次二度下修嗎?"},{"start":546.685,"end":571.804,"text":"我們會來努力我想今年一千萬的目標確實是有受到0403花蓮地震的影響因為泰魯閣目前還沒有辦法開放那很多國際旅客其實是受到泰魯閣吸引那所以怎麼樣找到替代的郵程那另外加強國際的宣傳等等我想這幾個我們會我們目標還是不變但是"},{"start":572.304,"end":581.797,"text":"因為我本期看到啟動全新台灣觀光新品牌其中有提到環島亮點捲動國旅我想不只是花蓮啦全台的旅遊都可以來做發展"},{"start":582.711,"end":601.248,"text":"所以我想像最近阿里山這個鐵路開通恢復行駛那我想阿里山這個高山鐵路在世界也是非常稀有非常珍貴那我們會把臺灣幾個有特色的景點再加強國際宣傳那希望讓國際旅客能夠更增多的來臺灣這個旅遊"},{"start":605.367,"end":606.068,"text":"當然是那請看簡報"},{"start":626.837,"end":656.247,"text":"包括國道3號偵測桃園8的交流道工程,交流道用地經費補助,還有推動桃園市快速道路可行性評估,桃園市機場捷運1200月票營收款補助比例,桃園市市區客運虧損補貼等事項。這邊,我們桃園市的交通建設正在發展,有很多重大的交通建設工程都在進行中。"},{"start":658.089,"end":673.389,"text":"桃園市政府為了配合賴清的總統提出的桃竹苗大矽谷計畫正在推動桃園未來包括城中城快速道路等三條完善快速道路系統只可行性評估。院長您可否同意補助八千九百萬元的經費?"},{"start":676.008,"end":689.385,"text":"大溪谷的桃樹苗大溪谷的案子是牽扯到整個高科技產業的發展對桃園地區現在已經好的基礎應該是好上加好所以健全他的交通線是當然是重要的那也非常謝謝剛剛委員的上一張圖把"},{"start":692.108,"end":714.65,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":714.81,"end":718.975,"text":"更有餘力能夠來納進更多,所以這些部分的資料我們再詳細來詳閱。"},{"start":723.274,"end":746.003,"text":"委員我先跟您報告板龍快速道路還有新梅龍快速道路這個經費都已經有了目前有的已經招標有的正在招標階段所以已經在進行那我會再了解這兩條之外委員是不是還有提到其他的快速道路的這個規劃我們再看怎麼樣來跟那我們看到佛山正式拔頭交流道"},{"start":746.983,"end":772.743,"text":"交流道的用地費是11.19億由市府負擔另外的新闢聯絡道工程部分也是由市府負責經費71.89億因此這11億還有70多億的經費總達83億對市府的負擔是相當沉重的如果要帶市政府經費全數到位可能影響到115年中的動工的目標因此建請中央補助一例加速推動學院院長可以同意這項費用嗎"},{"start":778.102,"end":794.876,"text":"委員說的是這個交流道大英豐德交流道這個計畫已經合定了那目前在辦理這個設計跟作業當中那中央跟地方的分配比例經費的分配已經在合定當中名列了這個是由市府負擔的部分"},{"start":798.058,"end":824.383,"text":"中央就負擔工程費68億那地方只負擔這個用地費11億所以其實是對地方來講而且這個是全國統一的規定就是說各地要增設交流道都是由地方負擔用地費中央來協助工程費的這個部分那比例上看起來我們今天沒有要討論採劃法嗎那地方就是因為經費拮据所以這邊要請交通部還有請院長來做協助"},{"start":825.643,"end":829.245,"text":"市政府負擔的費用也達了83億啊。總經費是79億。地方道路的新闢道路的工程費用。"},{"start":852.066,"end":860.698,"text":"所以委員指的是說因為桃園這次有很多增設的交流道或者增設的道路那這些累計起來。總不能說高速公路做好了可是沒有聯絡到嗎?"},{"start":863.693,"end":887.321,"text":"我整個再整理一下因為桃園我記得值得大概有4、5個交流到都在徵社當中再請部長回去再提供本席書面資料那在本席在6月13號交通委員會的交通業務報告提到巴德非常重要的捷運31線延伸至巴德段計劃國發會已經審查通過那接下來待行政院核定後即可興建當時本席有請部長一起做協助那部長也答覆就是會"},{"start":887.961,"end":889.683,"text":"行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢"},{"start":907.165,"end":921.937,"text":"目前我的了解是國安會已經審議審議那抱怨那怨在呈核的階段呈核階段已經呈核了半個月本席因為當時有提當時有提到說這個有時間上面的急迫性希望行政院"},{"start":957.926,"end":958.868,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員"}]}},{"id":"154573","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154573","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb6187b0db8f5384e6202a09fb1100d58f4beceec261fe3d6156a3b67dac7242888a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"10:05:45 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10:21:36","影片長度":"00:15:51","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T10:05:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T10:21:36+08:00","duration":951,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時6分）副院長，麻煩請卓院長，謝謝。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：卓院長好。院長，先跟你請教一下今天國人非常關心的議題，就是昨天在臺南發生的林士傑槍擊案，我想問一下，目前來講，行政院有沒有請警政署一定要召開專案會議，然後要趕快破案，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：相關部會已經有專案的小組在進行，今天早上我也特別請了內政部、法務部、警政署，還有刑事警察局一起來，就這個事情再做一次會報，我們希望能夠讓他們掌握目前所有的訊息，儘快全面展開搜索歹徒的行動。"],["葉委員元之：現在大概掌握到的是什麼方向？是黑道的關係，還是利益，還是什麼關係？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在對任何的可能性我們都不排除，但是我們也不去假設特別的狀況，這樣這個面才會廣。"],["葉委員元之：還沒有掌握，還不曉得就對了？還在追查中。"],["卓院長榮泰：我只能這樣回答，任何的可能性都不排除。"],["葉委員元之：院長有沒有下達多久要破案的指示，就是讓國人有點信心。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個形不成壓力，就是用最快的速度去破案。"],["葉委員元之：用最快的速度？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["葉委員元之：有沒有可能24小時以內呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然希望，但是……"],["葉委員元之：希望在24小時以內趕快……"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然希望，但是這個辦案的過程，我們還是讓他們專業的去進行，但是他們已經緊鑼密鼓、上緊發條在處理這個事情。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝院長。","院長，上禮拜二剛好我在教育組質詢，那時候你有承諾我關於中共介入政論節目這個議題，你說如果案情沒有太複雜的話，一個禮拜要給國人交代，因為今天剛好一個禮拜，從上禮拜二到這禮拜二，不知道這個事情目前查得怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：上禮拜已經正式說這個案子調查局在立案調查當中。"],["葉委員元之：對，但那時候是說要破案啊，就是要跟大家講說到底有沒有這件事，因為大家現在看政論節目很緊張嘛，都不知道是不是被滲透啊，所以你……"],["卓院長榮泰：既然在調查當中，我只能就程序上在調查……"],["葉委員元之：一個禮拜……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有去瞭解調查中的……"],["葉委員元之：所以並沒有辦法在一個禮拜之內告訴大家？"],["卓院長榮泰：那可見案情不是那麼……"],["葉委員元之：因為這是你上禮拜二跟我講的，所以我今天就問你……"],["卓院長榮泰：案情沒有那麼單純啦。"],["葉委員元之：所以案情很複雜？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為如此，所以他們還在調查當中。"],["葉委員元之：案情非常複雜，但是院長，雖然你說案情很複雜，但NCC好像沒有做什麼事啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：有啦。"],["葉委員元之：我想問一下NCC對於這個案件有做什麼嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告一下，以第一時間發生的時候來講，因為當時相關的媒體並沒有指名是哪一個特定的節目，所以我們第一個先通案式處理……"],["葉委員元之：那你有去問相關媒體嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們通案式的處理。"],["葉委員元之：你連問都沒有問！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，我們通案式的處理，請媒體的相關公協會去……"],["葉委員元之：什麼叫通案式處理？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是說我們發函給公協會，讓公協會瞭解這個是相關法遵的問題。"],["葉委員元之：對，昨天你們也有來立法院的委員會，我看你們的報告，院長，我問一下，NCC這樣的態度你能不能接受？他說他們就發函給公協會，比如說中華民國廣電公會、協會等等，協會表示對於會員所作所為不瞭解，NCC結案！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，委員，這個東西還在進行中，結論還沒有……"],["葉委員元之：我沒有問你，我是問院長你可以接受NCC這樣的態度嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：NCC……"],["葉委員元之：NCC主委，你知道現在被指涉的電視臺是哪一家，你知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：根據昨天媒體的報導來講的話，這是陸委會講的，根據那些資料……"],["葉委員元之：哪一間，你不用講那些，你知不知道是哪一間？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是東森新聞。"],["葉委員元之：東森，你昨天才知道？院長，我不是NCC喔，我在這個媒體報導的當天我就知道了，為什麼？因為我們有去打聽嘛。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，有多少證據講多少話。"],["葉委員元之：不好意思，主委，我沒有跟你講話，我跟院長講話，你是院長嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是。"],["葉委員元之：我跟院長講話，在當天我們就問了，問到底是哪一家，人家說東森，為什麼人家知道是東森？因為東森都有出具自由時報跟他們去求證的簡訊，所以大家都知道是東森。我不是NCC，我不是媒體主管機關我都知道，結果媒體主管機關NCC昨天聽陸委會講才知道！院長，這種NCC你可以接受嗎？它是媒體的主管機關，而且當時大家把這個事情講得很嚴重喔！結果NCC昨天聽陸委會講才知道。院長，你可以接受這麼顢頇的NCC嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我想主委不是這個意思，請容許……"],["葉委員元之：是不是哪個意思無所謂，我現在是說他昨天才知道那一家電視臺是哪一家，你可以接受嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們還是以有公權力機關的說法為準。"],["葉委員元之：我問院長啦！我問院長，不好意思，那個……"],["卓院長榮泰：我相信主委不是這個意思，但是也請容許我們的部會首長對任何的事件發生過程當中，採取比較謹慎的方式來發言。"],["葉委員元之：剛剛主委的意思我都聽得非常清楚，他昨天聽陸委會講才知道，我覺得非常顢頇，因為當時……跟院長報告，在自由時報報導這個新聞的當天，民進黨黨團就開記者會，你知道它的記者會的主題是什麼嗎？你知道嗎？你一定不知道，我講給你聽喔！他說，中共黑手介入臺灣媒體，下一句是，藍白立法架空NCC。什麼意思呢？就是這個事情這麼嚴重，嚴重到NCC一定要來處理，而藍白很可惡，居然在卡NCC，讓NCC不能來處理。這個是民進黨黨團當天媒體報導的態度，所以民進黨黨團對於NCC寄予厚望，認為NCC就是要處理這件案子最重要的機關，結果這個事情發生這麼久以後，主委昨天才知道是東森電視臺，代表什麼？代表他連查都沒有查嘛！就是聊備一格嘛，官樣文章嘛，發個文問相關公協會，叫相關公協會去問一下你的會員，請你普發給所有會員，看看有沒有會員自己承認他們有幹這個事情，如果沒有，我就可以交差了，我就可以沒事了，然後最後推給檢調，就沒有NCC的事情了。院長，這是你的NCC主委的態度欸！"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得他不是這個樣子，讓主委說明嘛。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我第一時間就有看相關……包括東森自己在這個關鍵時刻的節目都有提到這個問題。"],["葉委員元之：那你剛剛講說你昨天聽陸委會講的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：陸委會是公權力機關，我們做行政調查是以公權力機關的說法為準。"],["葉委員元之：對啦！那你沒有調查嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：相關……"],["葉委員元之：重點是你也沒有調查嘛，你不要插話好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有插話，我……"],["葉委員元之：每一次來這邊總質詢，我找院長質詢，你就要一直插話，等你當院長的時候我來質詢你嘛，你又不是院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我有請主委回答。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，院長，那也是要我請，因為我現在在跟你對話。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["葉委員元之：如果總質詢你都一直找他，那你就是總機啊！對不對？我就找你，因為我尊重你啊！我覺得你會處理事情，跟NCC主委不一樣啊！所以我們才跟你對話，不然跟他對話，他都一直插話，講一些言不及義的，浪費我的時間，我才15分鐘欸！所以NCC主委這種顢頇的態度證明一件事情……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有顢頇的問題。"],["葉委員元之：民進黨當時記者會把NCC過譽了啦！把NCC講得過於重要，好不好？NCC根本沒在幹嘛！好，接下來院長，我就要來問你NCC的事情，但這件事情跟主委無關，可不可以請主委先休息？好，謝謝。因為NCC有4個委員在7月31號就要卸任了，對不對？按照NCC組織法的規定，如果這4位新的委員到時候沒有經過立法院通過，原來4個委員可以延任嘛，對吧！院長，規定是這樣，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葉委員元之：現在因為行政院送來的4個新任委員，立法院一直沒有排審，院長，你知道原因是什麼嗎？你知道為什麼沒有排審？"],["卓院長榮泰：程序委員會沒有排進去報告事項。"],["葉委員元之：為什麼沒排？我跟院長簡單講一下好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葉委員元之：因為你要按照規定送來立法院，立法院要審嘛，對不對？總是想要知道一下卓榮泰院長你對這4個委員的態度是什麼，現在卡到兩件事，第一件事情，這4個委員是您前任的行政院長提過來的，我們並不知道您對這4個委員的態度如何，對不對？如果審，對您也不尊重，因為未來NCC是要跟您配合的；第二個原因，即便對這4個委員您願意支持，可是您本人好像也沒有來跟立法院講一下這幾個委員的優點在哪裡或是如何如何，所以當然不知道該排好還是不排好，對不對？排了，萬一對卓榮泰院長不尊重，那怎麼辦呢？因為我相信大家對卓榮泰院長還是有一定的尊重，以你的輩分還有你的協調，你待人謙和，大家對你還是有一定的尊重，所以會希望你對這個事情表態要明確一點，不知道您對這4個委員，您是支持的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員的好意。第一個，6月25號大院裡面的程序委員會曾經又一次把它不列案，所以我覺得這個案子一直在大院裡面；第二個，我們花了一些時間跟4位委員探求，他們是不是對提名時原來的初衷沒有任何改變，因為時間拖了這麼久，對他們來講是不是有造成困擾等等。目前為止，我認為既然大院的程序委員會又再一次處理這個案子，這個案子就請大院繼續執行下去……"],["葉委員元之：你有沒有考慮新提4個人選？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，就是按照現在的……"],["葉委員元之：以目前來說，有沒有考慮？因為一直卡住啊！你也沒有來溝通，今天要不是我問你的話，我根本不知道你的態度是什麼。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我認為程序委員會一直就這個事情……"],["葉委員元之：那您要跟立法院講一下嘛！而不是感覺好像今天變成我做球給你，讓你來講。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有……"],["葉委員元之：理論上院長應該主動，如果這4個人你們很希望立法院通過，你應該主動跟大家講，這雖然是陳建仁提的，可是是我支持的，然後優點在哪裡，對不對？讓大家可以進一步，現在你都沒有出聲……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯、沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：然後感覺我比你緊張，那為什麼……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們上禮拜已經請秘書長就這個事情詢問立法院我們該用什麼方式，是一個告知、一個公文還是什麼，我已經請秘書長在上禮拜詢問，這個禮拜在做決定了。"],["葉委員元之：公文不夠啦！公文往來，大家都知道是官樣文章。院長，如果你覺得這4個很重要就要講，因為這4個沒過，陳耀祥就要連任了，剛剛你看到他那種態度，他如果繼續做NCC主委，中共如果介入政論節目還得了啊！臺灣人看政論節目永遠沒有安心的一天啊！當時民進黨說中共有中央廚房，中央廚房影響政論節目，我現在看政論節目都在想是不是有中央廚房，大家現在已經有這樣的疑慮，結果主管機關NCC、被民進黨寄予厚望的NCC有發文給公協會，聽陸委會講才知道是東森，這種NCC主委你要讓他繼續連任喔？院長，你支持喔？所以院長，接下來你就是兩個抉擇，我講的很白，就兩個抉擇，第一個抉擇，7月31號是你所支持的4個人選──陳炳宏、羅慧雯、詹懿廉、翁柏宗這組人要做NCC委員，還是陳耀祥、翁柏宗、林麗雲、王維菁要做NCC委員？你就是做這個抉擇而已啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們……"],["葉委員元之：如果你不作為，你就是支持陳耀祥啦！你就是變相支持陳耀祥，消極地讓陳耀祥繼續做NCC主委，這不是國人期待的啦！所以兩件事情，第一個，院長如果認為這4個很重要，請你積極跟立法院溝通；第二個，不然你再提4個，因為本來制度規定為什麼要讓NCC委員經過立法院的同意，就是希望不斷地溝通，讓他們有民意基礎，你沒有溝通，人送過來，要審不審隨便你，反正你們沒過，我還有陳耀祥這個寶在那邊，態度就是這樣啊！所以院長，你會怎麼決定呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我剛剛已經跟委員報告，我們現在就希望……"],["葉委員元之：你要積極溝通，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：翁柏宗、陳炳宏、羅慧雯及詹懿廉，4位新送來的委員……"],["葉委員元之：比陳耀祥好嘛！你至少覺得他們比陳耀祥好，否則就是陳耀祥繼續做耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，陳主委他……"],["葉委員元之：你看剛剛那種態度，你有看到他的態度嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：他有他的任期跟他的規劃，這不是好不好的問題。"],["葉委員元之：不然我們就修法把那個奇怪的規定改掉。"],["卓院長榮泰：就這4位……"],["葉委員元之：因為像監察委員，如果新的人事沒有通過，他們沒有延任，大法官如果人事沒有通過，舊的也不能延任，所有機關只有NCC的委員，新的沒有通過可以延任，所有機關只有他們這樣。所以院長，你不積極或你不提新的人選，你就是在保送陳耀祥，我覺得好可怕，我真的覺得好可怕！我要問院長另外一個問題，NCC委員如果缺這4個會造成什麼影響？會像民進黨講的，中共就介入我們的政論節目嗎？會不會？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果缺了4個……"],["葉委員元之：缺4個會怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：照目前的人數算起來……"],["葉委員元之：iPhone沒辦法審查？"],["卓院長榮泰：要開會做決議，很多積極性的業務沒辦法去執行。"],["葉委員元之：NCC有非常多的事務官在裡面，而且舊的委員也可以……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員做的決議才有執行的問題，委員做決議的時候，人數不足……"],["葉委員元之：委員會人數不足沒辦法做決議？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果這4位沒有的話……"],["葉委員元之：院長你講的比翁柏宗好，他說如果沒有NCC，iPhone沒辦法審查，你講的比較好。"],["卓院長榮泰：這只是其中一小件事情而已。"],["葉委員元之：對，但是他把那個放重點了，你講的比較好，所以我對你很有期待，請你趕快，要嘛就積極推這4個、要嘛新提4個，好不好？你新提4個，大家來審，不要讓陳耀祥延任。","再來，我問一下地方的問題，請交通部長一起上來，好不好？"],["主席：部長請備詢。"],["葉委員元之：院長，上次在交通委員會的時候，我有跟部長提過板橋有一個泰板輕軌，部長還記得嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["葉委員元之：泰板輕軌是銜接五泰輕軌，泰板輕軌對我們板橋非常重要，它不只連接了非常多其他捷運，還有臺鐵浮洲站，而且路經了很多都市計畫；它也連接土城、中和、板橋農業區，要打造新的廊帶，對我們地方很重要，可是這個泰板輕軌的可行性評估從去年一直送、送了好幾次，包括今年5月又再送，可行性評估一直沒有通過。當時委員是說沒有效益啦！因為我快沒有時間，我簡單跟你報告，前交通部長王國材在去年的時候，到板橋參加民進黨立委的造勢大會，跟板橋社後地區的民眾講說，要來建設泰板輕軌支線到社後；泰板本來主線沒有到社後，王國材說要去社後蓋支線，結果現在主線一直被卡，說可行性評估沒有效益，那麼我請教一下，王國材去年是在騙票嗎？他說要蓋支線，結果你說主線沒有效益，所以只蓋支線不蓋主線喔！這個可不可以幫我們追蹤一下，這個進度已經卡很久了，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，上次委員提的意見，新北市5月13號又再送上來，我們現在在審核，我們會以協助的立場來促成這件事情。"],["葉委員元之：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：支線的部分會一起併入這個，未來……"],["葉委員元之：儘快啦！好不好？儘快啦！"],["主席：謝謝葉委員、謝謝卓院長！","下一位請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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end":346.087,"text":"什麼意思呢就是這個事情這麼嚴重嚴重到說NCC一定要來處理而藍白很可惡居然在卡NCC讓NCC不能來處理這個是民進黨黨團當天媒體報導態度所以民進黨黨團對於NCC寄予厚望認為NCC就是要處理這件案子最重要的機關結果今天這個事情發生這麼久以後"},{"start":347.608,"end":373.863,"text":"主委昨天才知道是東森電視台,代表什麼?代表他連查都沒有查嘛,就是聊貝伊格嘛,官樣文章嘛,發個文,問相關工協會,叫相關工協會去問一下你們的會員,請你普發給所有會員,看看有沒有會員自己承認他們有幹這個事情,如果沒有,我就可以交差啦,我就可以沒事了,然後最後推給減掉,就沒有NCC的事情了。"},{"start":374.703,"end":387.289,"text":"院長,這是你的NCC主委的態度耶!我覺得他不是這個樣子,讓主委說明嘛。那你剛剛講說你昨天聽我會講的。錄委會是公權力機關,我們做行政調查上次以公權力機關的說法為準。對啦,那你沒有調查嘛!重點是說你也沒有調查嘛!你不要插話好不好!每一次來我這邊總之君我找院長,"},{"start":401.235,"end":424.182,"text":"指詢你就要一直插話,那等你當院長的時候我來質詢你嘛,你又不是院長。我也請主委回答。院長那也是要我請,因為我現在在跟你對話,啊如果總質詢你都一直找他,那你就總計啊。對不對,我就找你,因為我尊重你啊,我覺得你會處理事情跟NCC主委不一樣啊,所以我們才跟你對話,不然跟他對話他都一直插話,講些言不及義的,浪費我的時間,我才15分鐘了。"},{"start":426.17,"end":448.018,"text":"所以NCC主委這種蠻憨態度所以證明一件事情民進黨當時記者會把NCC過獄了啦把NCC講得過於重要好不好NCC根本沒在幹嘛那接下來院長我就要來問你NCC的事情那這件事情跟主委無關可不可以請主委先行休息謝謝"},{"start":449.346,"end":475.136,"text":"因為NCC有四個委員在7月31號就要卸任了嘛對不對按照NCC組織法的規定如果這四位委員新的委員到時候沒有經過立法院通過原來四個委員可以延任嘛對吧院長規定是這樣對不對是好那現在因為行政院送來的四個新任委員立法院一直沒有排審嘛是那院長你知道原因是什麼嗎"},{"start":477.392,"end":505.191,"text":"你知道為什麼沒有排審?我跟院長簡單講一下好不好?因為你要按照規定送來立法院,立法院要審嘛,對不對?總是想要知道一下總統派院長你對這四個委員的態度是什麼嗎?那現在卡到兩件事,第一件事是這四個委員是您前任的行政院長提過來的,我們並不知道說您對這四個委員的態度如何嘛,對不對?如果審對您也不尊重,因為未來這"},{"start":506.507,"end":523.264,"text":"是要跟您配合的。第二個原因是好像即便是你對這四個委員你願意支持可是您本人好像也沒有來跟立法院講一下說這幾個委員優點在哪裡或如何如何所以當然可能也不知道說該排好還是不排好"},{"start":524.325,"end":543.308,"text":"排了萬一對卓榮泰院長不尊重那怎麼辦呢?因為我相信大家對卓榮泰院長還是有一定的尊重,因你的備份還有你的協調,你帶人簽核,大家對你還是有一定的尊重。所以會希望說你對這個事情表態要明確一點。那不知道說你對這四個委員你是支持的嗎?"},{"start":543.789,"end":554.772,"text":"好,謝謝委員的好意。第一個,6月25日的程序委員會,大院裡面的程序委員會曾經又一次把它補列案。所以我的覺得是這案一直在"},{"start":556.121,"end":558.041,"text":"你有沒有考慮新提四個人選?"},{"start":585.538,"end":610.595,"text":"沒有就是按照你目前來說有沒有可能一直卡住啊啊因為你也沒有來溝通嗎今天要不是我問你的話我根本不知道你態度是因為我我是認為程旭文一直在就那您要跟立法院講一下嗎我們是說我感覺好像今天變我做球給你了讓你來講理論上院長應該主動院長應該說這四個人我們很希望立法院通過你主動跟大家講說這個雖然是陳建仁提的可是是我支持的"},{"start":611.175,"end":635.885,"text":"然後優點在哪裡?對不對?讓大家可以進一步嘛。現在你都沒有出征。你都沒有出征,然後感覺我比你緊張。報告委員,我們在上個禮拜我就已經請秘書長就這個事情來詢問立法,我們該用什麼方式。一個告知、一個公文還是什麼。秘書長已經在上個禮拜在這個禮拜在做決定了。公文不夠啦。公文往來大家都知道是慣樣文章啦。院長"},{"start":637.523,"end":664.105,"text":"我覺得如果你覺得四個很重要就來因為我覺得這四個沒過齁陳耀祥要連任啊我覺得剛剛你看到他那種態度啊他如果繼續做NC主委中共如果介入政論節目還得了啊台灣人永遠看政論節目沒有安心的一天啊當時民進黨說中共有中央廚房欸中央廚房影響政論節目我現在看政論節目啊我都在想說是不是有中央廚房欸"},{"start":665.711,"end":695.114,"text":"當然現在已經有這樣的疑慮了。NCC被民進黨寄予厚望的NCC有發文給工協會。聽入委會才知道東森。這種NCC主委你要讓他繼續連任喔?院長你支持喔?所以院長接下來你就兩個抉擇。我講得很白就兩個抉擇。第一個抉擇是你7月31號你所支持的這四個陳炳宏、羅惠文、詹毅蓮、翁博忠"},{"start":696.631,"end":724.286,"text":"這一組人要做NCC委員還是陳耀祥、翁伯中、林立雲、王維京要做NCC委員?你就是做這個抉擇而已啊。如果你的不作為啊,你就是支持陳耀祥啦。你就是變相支持陳耀祥。讓消極的讓陳耀祥繼續做NCC主委。這個不是國人期待的啦。所以兩件事情。第一個,院長如果認為這四個很重要,請你積極跟立法院溝通。第二個,不然你再提四個。"},{"start":725.575,"end":739.12,"text":"因為本來制度的規定為什麼要讓NCC委員經過立法院的同意就是希望不斷的溝通讓他們有民意基礎嘛啊你沒有溝通人送過來要審不審隨便你反正你們沒過我還有陳耀祥這個寶在那邊"},{"start":741.288,"end":745.292,"text":"他有他的任期跟他的規劃,有他的任期跟規劃,對,但是現在不來我們就修法,把那個奇怪規定改掉"},{"start":765.452,"end":790.664,"text":"因為像那個監察委員如果新的人士沒有通過阿他們沒有延任大法官如果人士沒有通過舊的也不能延任所有機關只有NCC的委員新的沒有通過可以延任所有機關只有這樣所以院長你不積極或你不提新的人選你就在保送陳耀祥我覺得好可怕我真的覺得好可怕那我要問院長另外一個問題阿"},{"start":792.162,"end":805.627,"text":"NCG委員如果缺了4個會造成什麼影響?會像民進黨講的中共就介入我們政論節目嗎?會不會?缺4個會怎麼樣?iPhone沒辦法審查?NCG有非常多的事務關聯在裡面。委員做的決議才有執行的這個問題。委員做決議的時候人數不足。"},{"start":819.045,"end":846.53,"text":"委員人數為不足,沒辦法做決議。我願意講你講得比那個翁柏宗好,他說如果沒有NCC、iPhone沒辦法審查。你講得比較好。對啊,但是他把那個放重點了。他把那個放重點了,你講得比較好。所以我對你很有期待,請你趕快要嘛就積極推這四個,要嘛新提四個。好不好,你新提四個,大家來審嘛。不要讓陳耀強連任啊。然後再來我問一下那個地方的問題,請交通部長一起上來好不好。"},{"start":848.87,"end":862.101,"text":"上次院長趁部長上來的時候上次在交通委員會的時候我有跟部長提過我們板橋有一個太阪輕軌部長還記得嗎?他是銜接五太輕軌太阪輕軌對我們板橋非常重要"},{"start":865.584,"end":885.474,"text":"他不只是連接了非常多其他捷運,還有台鐵福州站,而且他入京了很多都市計畫。他也連接了土城中和板橋農業區,要打造新的狼袋。對我們地方很重要。可是這個太阪輕軌的可行性評估從去年一直送,送了好幾次,包括今年5月又再送。"},{"start":886.465,"end":903.908,"text":"一直沒有通過可行性評估一直沒有通過當時委員是說沒有效益但是因為我快沒時間院長我簡單跟你報告王國才在去年的時候前交通部長去年的時候報文板橋參加民進黨立委的造勢大會跟板橋社後地區的民眾講說"},{"start":905.109,"end":928.231,"text":"要來建設太阪的輕軌的支線到社後。太阪本來主線沒有到社後。王國才說要去社後蓋支線。結果現在主線一直被卡。說沒有可行性評估。沒有效益。那我請教一下王國才去年是來騙票嗎?他說要蓋支線欸。結果主線你說沒效益。那所以只蓋支線不蓋主線喔?這個可不可以幫我追一下?"},{"start":949.924,"end":950.285,"text":"好,謝謝葉委員"}]}},{"id":"154572","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154572","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb618187bcb70fac09ad7a09fb1100d58f4beceec261fe3d6156a046c78d44cb01c825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"09:49:34 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10:05:35","影片長度":"00:16:01","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T09:49:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T10:05:35+08:00","duration":961,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":268,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（9時49分）主席、與會媒體，大家好。請行政院長與交通部長。"],["主席：請行政院長與交通部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：院長好、部長好，辛苦了，新的執政團隊有新氣象，在各項經濟指標都有突出的表現，最近半年來的臺股指數，我早上看到已經將近2萬4,000點，臺灣股市是52年來的新高，臺灣的股票市值在全球排名已經是第15名，鏡電視民調顯示卓院長的滿意度也將近五成，恭喜院長！尤其我們護國神山台積電的半導體技術領先全球，也替臺灣帶來可觀的稅收，各項福國利民的政策也讓民眾生活更加有感，讓執政黨的滿意度穩定領先。對此，國家應該以更好的條件來做福國利民的事，做出更多的努力。","本席這邊跟院長提出一些討論，首先是我們國人的驕傲──黃仁勳，他在6月來臺掀起了AI旋風，並且有意在臺灣繼續設立研發中心；過去在選舉期間我也提出了土城、三峽AI的科技廊道，掛出許多看板並提出相關政見，地方民眾對這項政策也相當期待。我身為土城、三峽所選出的民意代表，也向院長推薦土城，土城有工業區的基礎，加上許多科技廠商也都在土城，土城、三峽有許多的國有地可以提供，這8年來的努力，土城、三峽的交通基礎建設可以說是發展快速，捷運三鶯線、板南線、萬大線的共構，還有土城交流道、金城交流道已經開始動工，未來台65延伸快速道路要成為串連北部科技園區的要道，這對整個科技產業是一大福音。","這邊請院長看一下，關於土城、三峽未來的科技廊道，土城司法園區的南側還有很多國有地，現在的簡報圖片就是其北側以及南側，北側的司法園區有84公頃，南側有將近100公頃，那是以前土城的彈藥庫，未來我們要推動AI科技產業，一定要找國家的土地才能提供更寬大的土地給所有有意願進駐的廠商，而這邊有一百多公頃，那是土城、三峽大家共同的期待，讓AI產業能夠趕快推動，是不是請院長找相關單位來做研議？院長，關於AI科技園區，當初賴總統來到土城還特別贊同我們推動AI科技園區，請院長來做說明，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，委員一開始講到關於臺灣經濟的發展，我們都知道這是全國人民共同的努力，政府該做的是維護國家的安全，讓成熟的民主政治往更健全的方向發展。另外兩件很重要的事，我們要接得住世界的潮流，也要穩定對我們的基礎建設做全面的開發，如果做到這點，那在全國人民的努力之下就會得到更好的成果。","至於國際大廠要到臺灣哪裡設廠，任何一個大型的開發，我們都非常的歡迎，但也要符合我們整個戰略布局跟整體發展目標，現在委員所提出的AI旋風當然是橫掃全臺灣，我想各地、包括每位委員在這裡都會為自己的選區、自己的所在地提出很多希望跟期待。","剛剛委員所提到的司法園區，目前我所知道的，已經開始辦理區段徵收工程的作業當中，未來它是不是有進一步發展的可能性，我想包括中央、地方的合作、努力，應該要再做進一步，然後用這個來吸引更多的國際大廠來投資，對地方絕對就是一個好的發展。"],["吳委員琪銘：跟院長還有部長報告，因為土城這個地方，早期包括鴻海、一些科技大廠都在土城工業區；現在土城的房價，大家都知道，也都已經上漲了，尤其是廠商，他們要取得土地很不容易，所以要取得土地就要找我們國有的土地，我就說，土城有交通便利性，還有土城的醫療，在各種條件下，我們都會比其他各縣市來得有便利性。此外，我們南區這邊還有100公頃的土地，然後我們北區這邊已經打造了一個司法園區，未來我們的看守所以及地方法院以及地檢署全部都會搬遷到司法園區，計有84公頃，未來在我們南側這一邊有將近100公頃，這部分未來可以好好去規劃，因為那裡國有地占的比例最高，若好好來推動的話，我相信包含AI的研發中心，也可以進駐新北土城、三峽這個地方，所以這一點我拜託院長，是不是找我們相關單位來做研議？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個會再請經濟部他們來做研議，因為南側的土地目前還是屬於非都市計畫土地，還要再經過都市計畫的檢討跟變更，所以程序上還要再進行，如果地方有需要、產業有需要，目的事業主管機關認為應該朝向更有利土地發展的利用發展的方向去，我們會請經濟部跟地方、跟委員再來做一些瞭解，看看以後該怎麼進行。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，希望我們中央跟新北市大家來合作、來推動，謝謝。","再來，剛才我所講到的，因為我們地方要推動整個產業鏈的結合，首先，交通的問題我們還是要解決，土城跟三峽這邊的人口密集度，現在成長速度非常快，尤其在台65線的延伸上，三峽這邊已經列入我們的優先路段，我跟院長及部長報告，三峽的部分，尤其是在北大，北大兩年前有4萬7,000多人，短短兩年的時間，又暴增到6萬多人；目前新北市又規劃了麥仔園這個地段要做重劃，還有樹林跟大柑園地區這邊也要推動重劃區，但那裡就只有靠國道3號，造成國道3號整個車流量都非常擁擠，所以台65線的延伸，早期我還曾向公共工程委員會吳主委要求相關單位來做研議，那時候得到我們公路總局的許可，在111年1月30號上網招標可行性評估作業，在4月30號決標，6月27號召開會議，辦理可行性初期報告審查作業，交通部預計在明（114）年3月提出期中報告。我要拜託部長，是不是台65線這一個沿線能夠予以抓住，一定要順利地推動，請部長來說明。"],["李部長孟諺：我想這是一條非常重要的快速道路，因為現在從龍潭一直到土城，甚至到中和的北二高，都非常容易塞車，在上下班的時候，塞車的狀況很嚴重，所以如果能夠平行北二高來興建一條板龍快速道路，我覺得對整個交通紓解很有幫助。現在當然還有一些技術上要去克服，我想我們這個可行性評估會儘快來辦理，而且這條快速道路也列為桃竹苗大矽谷重要交通建設的一環。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝部長。部長很清楚都是短程，所以對外交通就要靠國道3號，但國道3號再怎麼拓寬還是不夠用！唯一的辦法就是推動65快速道路，至於短程部分，就把土城、三峽列為優先路段，這樣可以解決車流量與壅塞的問題。"],["李部長孟諺：現在需要去處理的，就是怎麼跟堤防共構，並與水利單位協調，這部分需要一些時間趕快把它付諸實施。"],["吳委員琪銘：我也提醒部長，從柑林橋過來可以連接土城工業區，要是快速道路能夠連接上去，就可以解決土城工業區的車流量問題，這是我們未來整個規劃，請部長一定要特別加註進去，好不好？謝謝。","再來，請教部長，上個會期在王國材部長任內，我要求在三峽……三峽在2020年獲選為交通部經典小鎮。三峽商圈方面，我們現在在推動長福橋改建，而長福橋就是當初我跟水利署要求經費來整治三峽河，而三峽再過去就是三峽老街、祖師廟，那邊我們列為經典小鎮，觀光人潮很多，但停車的問題一直沒辦法解決！在上會期，我也要求過交通部王國材部長，他也承諾要是新北市將序位排前的話，那麼交通部在前瞻的賸餘款……我們當初編了260億，現在還有賸餘款，要是新北市同意將排序列在前面，那麼交通部原則上是支持的。現在部長又換人了，部長會不會繼續來推動、來支持這個案子？"],["李部長孟諺：據我們目前的瞭解，交通部已經完成初審，而新北市也將本案排為第一，審查完以後，這個案子在新北的排序是最優先的，所以最近會運用節餘款來提報。"],["吳委員琪銘：什麼時候？"],["李部長孟諺：應該這一、兩個月就會來做進一步的處理。"],["吳委員琪銘：這一、兩個月？現在7月了，下個月可不可以核定？"],["李部長孟諺：是不是容我會後再跟您報告比較明確的時間？"],["吳委員琪銘：真的不要跳票，因為這關係到三峽的觀光產業。三峽現在最主要就是靠觀光，所以三峽一定要有停車場，不然整個三峽的交通會癱瘓，因此停車場是重中之重，請政府一定要重視。新北市也非常重視停車場問題，所以拜託部長允諾，儘快核定經費。我知道經費多達5.78億，中央補助2.7億，這一點我就要拜託部長，絕對不要跳票，好不好？可以吧？"],["李部長孟諺：是，我們會全力支持。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝部長。還有一點，三鶯線明年就要通車了，除了三鶯線還有萬大線，我跟吳秉叡、蘇巧慧三位委員在107年為萬大線共同爭取555億的前瞻經費，但疫情過後原物料缺乏，工資上漲，所以我們所編的預算不夠，現在還有220億的缺口，總經費來到770億。本席想拜託交通部是不是趕快審議，讓捷運萬大線能早日通車？有關這部分請部長說明。"],["李部長孟諺：因為現在確實是有原物料上漲的情形，像過去我們在編建築工程費用時，以前一坪大概都是編10萬塊，現在實際上的建築成本大概一坪要22萬以上，所以確實是有倍增的狀況，也因此，很多原來之前編的計畫，現在在執行發包以後，或是在實際執行上，配合這個物調，可能都需要調整經費，只要他們送來交通部審核，國發會審議通過後，會照比例來分擔。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝部長。院長，因為時間的關係，社會住宅的資料再多拜託你了。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。下一位請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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09:49:13","影片長度":"00:15:36","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T09:33:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T09:49:13+08:00","duration":936,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":163,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（9時33分）主席江副院長、行政院卓院長及各部會首長。麻煩主席請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員明才：院長早。臺灣現在大家覺得大概有三多，第一個，詐騙多；第二個，到南部常常感覺治安不好，開槍多；第三個就是臺灣的媒體壟斷的非常厲害，很多偏頗的情況。面對這三多，不曉得卓院長你要如何大刀闊斧的改善？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們都發現同樣的問題，所以我們的五打七安裡面，這個都大概包含在內，前面兩個部分，一個就是打詐，還有就是黑金槍的問題，「黑金槍毒詐」都包括在裡面了，打詐的部分，我們一方面希望通過打詐四法。第二方面，打詐中心的部分，我們請數位部、法務部、內政部全面在進行打詐，目前對於利用名人來詐騙的事情，有了初步的一個進展，但是不夠澈底，再來就是希望數位部能夠提供一個平臺，讓大家可以上去詢問這個事件、這個訊息是真是假，這個部分也一定會在最近這幾個月當中上路。另外，打詐中心的部分，我們希望它能夠更精進現在的作為，能夠把案件一一地、誠實地落實，讓相關的單位來做更多的追索。同時，銀行對金融的體系跟手續也要做完整，這是打詐的部分。至於槍的部分，我們從今天開始就會執行全國同步掃黑跟貪瀆的行動專案，希望能夠持續進行下去，跟接續從6月25號開始的綠能掃黑專案、貪瀆專案一樣，能夠一直進行下去，希望我們能展現最大的決心。","同時，早上我們也邀集各部會的首長，我希望能夠做一個更整體的概念，向人民宣示，現在政府的兩大主軸，一個是經濟發展，一個是維持治安，兩處會同時來進行。"],["羅委員明才：是，希望這三多可以完全降低、消滅掉，還給臺灣人民好的生活。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們全力地努力。"],["羅委員明才：昨天我們看到臺南漁會的林理事長居然在家裡的門口被槍擊，然後他的女兒還是議員，不曉得院長認不認識、知不知道這件事？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然知道。"],["羅委員明才：知道，那是什麼原因？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在看起來，這是一個有計畫性的事件，因為清晨就在家門口堵人，車輛經過輾轉之後，還把車輛燒掉，而且利用不同的交通工具等等，這是一個有計畫的、縝密的工作，也因為如此，現在我們的整個專案小組是全面在展開訴追當中。"],["羅委員明才：怎麼這幾年這些槍擊事件都發生在臺南？究竟臺南發生了什麼事情？以前臺南是府城，結果現在變成是警匪戰上演的場所，三不五時就有這樣的事情發生。院長你要不要查？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們是不排除任何可能，也不假設任何狀況，到底是什麼因素、什麼原因發生的，現在是全面在搜查當中，包括所有的關係人等等，已經全面展開了。"],["羅委員明才：這跟那個太陽光電有沒有關係？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不排除任何可能，但是也不設定任何特定的事件，這樣我們檢調單位查的範圍才會周延、廣泛，能夠具體、迅速來找到這個行為人。"],["羅委員明才：我想這是冰山一角啦，因為冰凍三尺非一日之寒，我發現這個問題錯綜複雜，可是院長，如果你遇到夠力的人士，不管在媒體方面或是政治勢力方面，你敢不敢查？"],["卓院長榮泰：只要是在我職責內，而且對人民有利的，我想委員可以信得過我。"],["羅委員明才：好，那希望你第一個就是勿枉勿縱；第二個，你的肩膀要夠硬。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員明才：希望不要有其他的因素來影響你該做正事的這個機會。另外，剛剛講的，就是臺灣的媒體，院長有沒有覺得現在的媒體有被壟斷的情況？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得媒體應該忠實地報導事實的真相，自己的立場可以用分析的方式，但是不代表新聞，就新聞的處理，應該讓人民有知道事實真相的權利，這個應該全力地維護。臺灣經過這麼多年民主的發展，我們對媒體已經有相當嚴格的要求，但是我希望媒體能夠把自己的立場放在後面，把事實真相呈現出來。"],["羅委員明才：媒體應該是非常重要的公器，應該心裡都有一把尺，可是現在臺灣的情況變得很糟糕，藍的就看藍的頻道，綠的就喜歡看綠的頻道。"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣不好啊！"],["羅委員明才：這樣很不好吧！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員明才：時代在變，我們希望媒體有它的公權力，可以教化人心嘛！而不是現在的頻道一打開來，院長不曉得你有沒有在看電視的習慣，我看到現在都不看了，因為不是狗咬人就是狗咬狗，不然就是交通事故「喔咿喔咿」，每天報這個是什麼新聞啊！能不能拜託院長，新聞的素質可不可以提升一點啊？像日本、像歐美國家，他們的一些內容有國際觀。可是現在的媒體有的為了要省錢，就隨便亂七八糟在報，講難聽一點，有的東西「教歹囡仔大細」，好像臺灣的8點檔一樣，老人家或者是家庭婦女每天看、每天看，偶爾我也看，陪我媽媽看，可是看了半天，劇情演了10年、20年還是一樣，就是婆媳吵架，不然就是什麼車子被撞、醫院的問題，再演都是演這些東西啊！低價的、廉價的成本，這樣子好嗎？","是不是政府應該給予一些獎勵，讓他們做一些好的片子嘛！比如說像以前的八千里路雲和月，或者是有認識地理、臺灣的一些民俗等等，是不是政府可以拿一些錢來補助他們，不然臺灣的這些影音節節敗退。你看韓國政府把所有的資源用力來支持韓國的影音，我們看它的韓團、很多的影片都賣到全世界，這方面是不是行政院有什麼想法可以改變？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，其實最近很多的臺劇也引起一些臺流，它跟整個大的平臺合作，也製造出不少、相當多膾炙人口的影片出來，大家也都非常的喜歡。現在希望這樣的風氣、製作的水準內容，能夠引到我們國內的電視臺來，從內製的節目上，大家來做精進、做這部分的進步，因為文化到底是國家的軟實力。我們看到韓流看到能夠大舉的向全世界去發展，臺灣應該也有這個實力，我想二、三十年前，臺灣的歌曲、音樂在亞洲地區都是翹起大拇指的，那現在……"],["羅委員明才：對啊！結果現在都節節敗退。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在電影方面，文化部也有文策院等等，我們也希望第一個、媒體要自律，第二個、戲劇的製作希望朝向多元而且精緻化，現在臺劇的這些發展過程，應該值得很多的文化工作者來做參考。"],["羅委員明才：是，謝謝院長可以關心這一塊，與其8,800億亂亂花，倒不如把一些錢、資金、資源，公正的用來推廣所有的影音還有一些媒體的自律，希望院長可以找到一個好的方式，讓臺灣的環境大家住得安心，看所有的影片或者是看新聞的時候，不要看得怵目驚心，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。因為這是交通質詢，對於現在AI的發展，我們拭目以待，臺灣未來的自駕車或是無人駕駛，這一塊不曉得已經做好準備了沒？我們什麼時候在臺北市可以看到無人駕駛的汽車，讓人民可以很方便的來使用，大概什麼時候可以上路？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們從傳統的燃油車，現在進步到電動車，電動車裡面就有分好幾個不同level的自駕程序，我們全國各地還有一些試驗場。"],["羅委員明才：大概什麼時候會很普遍的，在臺北市的街頭我們就可以坐無人車？部長不知道有沒有什麼規劃？"],["李部長孟諺：是，現在臺灣有16個在做自駕實驗的專案正在進行，不過臺灣的交通狀況跟國外不一樣，我們的機車特別多，所以相關的自駕跟機車之間的介面，或者是互相之間的干擾，我覺得還要再審慎，所以我們目前……"],["羅委員明才：5年內還看不到？"],["李部長孟諺：目前我覺得可能還要先從比較保守，或是比較封閉型的場域繼續來進行……"],["羅委員明才：好啦！看起來沒有那麼快啦！"],["李部長孟諺：我覺得安全還是第一，最優先。"],["羅委員明才：所以在捷運的推動方面，應該要加快速度。比如本席最關心的捷運延伸至深坑，未來接到石碇，這個喊了快12年了，到現在還沒開始動工，院長可不可以關心一下？因為不論歷任的縣長、市長，大家都支持啊！包括蘇貞昌以前蘇縣長、包括侯友宜侯市長，沒有人反對，大家都積極在推動，所以這個部分是不是可以加快腳步？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在可行性的研究，應該新北市政府在提出當中，至於預留後面那一段到石碇的這個過程，這個內容應該還要做相當的修正，請交通部詳細說明。"],["羅委員明才：我補充一下，其實就是在石碇交流道那邊做一個轉運中心，現在我們發現國五到宜蘭堵車都堵得很厲害，像童玩節等等，每個禮拜六、禮拜天堵得很厲害。所以我們鼓勵大家多多來搭乘大眾捷運，進來臺北城市的時候，在石碇的交流道那邊就當一個轉運站，車輛不要再進到臺北市了，本席一直提出這個構想，也希望院長、部長可以支持。"],["李部長孟諺：目前深坑輕軌正在可行性的評估，今年有一些審查意見給新北市，新北市還在修正，如果送上來，我們就會依程序來協助他們，也會預留這個空間。"],["羅委員明才：部長，一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九，我們地方還要等多久？"],["李部長孟諺：你可能要去催新北市啦，它還沒送出來。"],["羅委員明才：是不是改天我約一下新北市侯市長跟你一起見個面，把事情講完再下班，一次就解決啦！這樣不是更快嗎？因為要12年了！"],["李部長孟諺：只要地方政府規劃送上來，我們就會全力來協助。"],["羅委員明才：因為深坑這個地方很漂亮，它也是整個大臺北都會區的後花園。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["羅委員明才：其實就長遠來看，早做晚做不如早點做，也比較省錢。比如說你看看我們的捷運環狀線南段，到現在做的這個進度怎麼樣？聽說要延宕啊？"],["李部長孟諺：現在南北環都在施工的階段，目前都已經發包施工。"],["羅委員明才：南環因為是經過我的選區──新店、政大這個地方，現在有沒有遇到什麼困難？"],["李部長孟諺：目前瞭解是有順利發包，也積極地在施工。"],["羅委員明才：如果10年前做就比較省一點，現在物價飆漲，很可惜。另外一個基隆捷運，還有捷運汐止民生線的問題，同樣是捷運，我在新店那個地方安坑輕軌都已經完工開始通車了，也非常感謝我們交通部還有所有相關人員，做得很好。你看20年過了，汐止還在那邊空喊汐止民生線。"],["李部長孟諺：也跟委員報告，汐東線主要當時是跟汐止民生線掛在一起，但是臺北市當時對汐止民生線有一些疑慮，因為……"],["羅委員明才：對，都有一些問題啦！"],["李部長孟諺：所以後來交通部跟新北市政府達成共識把這一段獨立出來。"],["羅委員明才：有問題就是要協調把它克服啦！因為本席來自地方，也拜託院長關心一下安城快速道路的興建，這對地方交通很有幫助，還有特別是華城快速道路才5公里而已，30億解決大概3萬人的交通、行的安全的問題，也拜託院長多多幫忙。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，這個也要新北市政府趕快進行一些評估，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。"],["委員羅明才書面補充資料：","一、AI發展對智慧交通、自駕技術發展與法規與時俱進","交通部過去提出2021交通科技產業政策白皮書，其中論及「5G智慧交通應用推動政策」。隨著先進的資通訊科技被導入於交通運輸領域，如車路人聯網（Vehicle-Infrastructure-Person Network, VIP-Network）及人工智慧影像辨識與資料分析技術等，帶來許多破壞性的創新性服務出現，這些服務可能帶來更安全、更包容、更公平、更有效率與更永續的未來，另一方面，在轉變過程中也對既有的法令規範及運輸生態帶來相當大的衝擊。基此，政府亟需積極參與探索交通科技之創新應用，及驗證相關產品技術與服務的可行性，使其發揮應有的正面效益。同時，透過政策引導方式，協助國內相關產業進一步提升技術能量及國際市場競爭力。","交通是串聯生活與產業活動的血脈，相關產業亦是帶動國家整體產業發展的重要火車頭。因此先進國家對於新興智慧交通科技（如自駕車、車聯網、交通行動服務等）均積極投入創新服務實證布局，如美國的M-City、韓國的K-City、新加坡的CETRAN園區等都是目前全球的標竿。為此，交通部規劃未來5年在「智慧運輸系統發展建設計畫」投入10億元資源，及未來6至10年投入15億元資源，推動5G智慧交通應用實證，預估由實驗場域所引動之國內新興智慧交通服務產值，未來5年約新臺幣50億元，未來6至10年約新臺幣125億元以上的規模。首先，規劃建構國內第一個連結生活場域及商業環境新興智慧交通科技實證場域，場域內將涵蓋光通訊、5G環境、新世代路側及感測裝置、智慧號控、雲端管理平台等新世代基礎設施，並可整合自駕車及車聯網等成為新興智慧交通服務之創新服務發想及商業試煉的基礎，讓政府部門與民眾降低對於新技術與服務的隔閡，加速未來相關應用的落地，打造臺灣成為全球發展創新智慧交通服務的先驅者。","再來，規劃引入國際大廠共同參與，透過主題式的合作模式，帶動國際領導大廠與本地業者的共同合作，協助業者打入國際產業鏈。另透過多元公共參與機制，讓政府部門、在地民眾、服務營運商、產業部門、新創團隊等持續對話並探索在地需求，藉由研發補助、主題式實證等機制，打磨創新的技術、服務概念與商業模式，有效加速「以使用者為中心」解決方案的成形。最後，希望藉由此實驗場域驗證的成果，導引未來智慧交通相關的軟硬體工程標準發展的脈絡，建立實驗數據共享之機制，進而協助主管機關作為相關法規的調適的依據。","首先本席請教部長，交通科技產業政策白皮書僅於2021年提出，三年過去了並沒有再更新。隨著AI科技的大爆發，各國對伺服器、算力等的技術也大幅提升，對於交通部之前提出的「智慧運輸系統發展建設計畫」，是否有助於縮短各項建設發展的時間？而是否因為「無人載具科技創新實驗條例」歸屬於經濟部，是以在交通部「交通科技產業政策白皮書」中只著重於無人機科技產業政策？。","因應未來汽車新科技帶來對汽車傳產業的變革與新商機，除了在傳統汽車產業界引發顛覆性變化，也為ICT產業界提供無限想像的機會。是以國內ICT產業界在去年成立了「台灣先進車用技術發展協會」（TADA），在ICT產業與汽車業之間搭起跨業溝通平台，促進對彼此產業模式的了解，以進一步合作開發先進汽車相關產品，開拓全球市場的商機。而科技產業互動較為密切的主管機關亦是經濟部而非交通部，對於整合汽車傳產業與ICT產業界切入交通運輸的部分，交通部如何協調不同產業觀念上的碰撞？及整合不同專業領域的技術？","ICT產業切入汽車產業，目前較著重於：車用半導體，車用晶片的種類與規格隨著近年智能電動車的發展，而愈加複雜多樣化。尤其是AI高階晶片的發展，需要更多的專業人才，才能有在技術層面突破的可能性。智慧座艙與智駕，特別聚焦在座艙內各面板的應用。將來因自動駕駛技術的導入，車子的角色轉型成為移動平台，用車者在座艙內可利用時間進行商務或娛樂的活動，包括車窗等車身部位都將搖身一變成為互動式面板，台灣ICT產業在其中可發揮的空間極為寬廣。電源/電力/電控：台灣產業在此領域已有良好實績，包括Tesla、與諸多國內電動大巴業者，皆已打入其市場，並持續延伸至兩輪與三輪電動載具。是以，即便在台北市電腦公會所舉辦的台北國際電腦展（COMPUTEX）為例，就可以見到以「智慧應用」為主題，將電動車、車聯網、ADAS、充電設備、與車用感測元件等各方面的未來汽車科技做為展覽的主軸之一。ICT產業與汽車業的密切合作，也使得資訊電腦業將進一步發展到應用與服務、智能化與聯網化、交通與IT的整合，讓全世界的B2B買家來體驗台灣在未來汽車世界的系統整合（SI）與提出解決方案的實戰能力。將台灣的ICT技術能力擴及全球，並順利攻入國際汽車產業供應鏈。","綜上，發展智慧交通、自駕技術、及未來實際推廣現實應用，絕非僅僅是交通部的事務。本席在此建議院長，宜盡早推動跨部會的平台，交通部、經濟部、數發部、國發會等，參考國際先驅，如德國自2021年7月28日生效之《自動駕駛法》，允許高度自動駕駛（L4）車輛於2022年開上德國公共道路，成為全世界第一個無人駕駛車輛從研究走向日常生活之國家。跨部會推動訂定自駕車相關法律，建立自動駕駛之認定機制、研擬自駕車駕駛人之行車注意義務、明定自駕車倫理規範、及未來《道路交通管理處罰條例》如何訂定有關自動駕駛之行為態樣與相關罰則等，宜盡早著手準備。","法制規範逐漸成熟之後，產官學界便能致力於推動臺灣ICT技術能力與智慧交通、自駕技術之發展。包括(一)促進跨域合作打造新世代交通服務與基礎建設面對道路交通壅塞、運輸事故頻仍、從業人力短缺、偏遠地區缺乏基本運輸服務及新興科技改變既有交通服務生態等，從人本交通、人民有感的角度打造智慧交通系統，擺脫行人地獄的惡名，帶給民眾更具安全感及效率的交通環境。(二)推動新興交通產業標準與應用驗證機制連結人工智慧、物聯網與5G技術，形成跨領域整合，使設備技術多元、服務跨域，擴大智慧運輸產業生態圈，從標準化感測通訊設備、數位內容匯流格式及共通開放平台等，發展智慧運輸產業標準。(三)推動跨領域合作共創產業價值鏈以擴大產業效益將實驗場域作為新興技術與服務的試煉場，從概念、服務到商業驗證，進而帶動國際交通科技相關產業合作，營造創新生態體系。","二、捷運延伸至深坑石碇","新北市府喊了12年的深坑輕軌捷運在歷經11次可行性研究報告送審後，終於在2022年12月8日獲交通部審查修正後通過「深坑線輕軌運輸系統暨周邊土地開發可行性研究報告書」，爾後交通部並函覆審查意見有系統選擇（車輛、機電與號誌）、公共運輸相關配套措施等。後續將依審查意見修正，盡速提送交通部同意，轉行政院審議、爭取核定。新北市捷運局指出，全案經費117億，將力拚2030年完工。","目前規劃S4站的位置為國有財產署土地，未來希望能規劃為青年宅、社會住宅，配合深坑線設站，除提升便利性之外，亦能帶動捷運運量。S5站周邊則有法務部庫房，未來隨著捷運深坑線的推動發展，希望法務部能與新北市政府討論聯合開發的可行性。如若交通部、國發會允諾，未來深坑線S5站可繼續向北延伸南港，將可服務中華科技大學、中央研究院等運輸交通需求，並與文湖線連接成環狀，增加捷運路網的服務範圍與便利性。或將深坑輕軌再延伸至石碇交流道，相信還能再帶動石碇整體的城市發展，畢竟軌道設施都已經建置了，如能發揮更大的效益，造福周邊居民，對深坑、石碇生活圈都會是樁美事。","三、捷運環狀線─南環段","捷運南環段大坪林至動物園分為2個區段標CF670（新店大坪林─政大）及CF670A（政大─動物園），其中台北捷運南環段CF670標（新店─政大段）今年六月遭逢第5次流標。據了解，該CF670區段標工程，包含Y2A、Y03、Y04及Y05站等4座地下車站及各站的水電、環控，以及四段潛盾隧道，除了需穿過淡水河及基隆河施工困難之外，還會經過一年多達100多天在考試的考試院，加上大環境缺工缺料、公共工程釋出數量多等，皆影響廠商投標意願。","環狀線（南環段/北環段）路線長度20.66公里，原經費1369.06億元。其中南環段即將進入施工階段，自木柵動物園站沿新光路經政治大學、永安街、木柵路，再穿越景美溪南側工業區至新店線大坪林站。施工進行階段常常對周邊居民而言是苦不堪言，除了需要忍受工程噪音、空氣品質受影響之外，還有塞車帶來的交通黑暗期，民眾無不希望工程效率越快越好。其次，近期原物料高漲、缺工等影響，推升重大公共工程的營建成本，並造成公共工程流標率大幅提升。期盼行政院多給予地方經費上的支持，協助地方提高工程效率，縮短工期，就是對地方最大的幫忙。本席請教院長，未來進入施工期，行政院可否協助向考試院協調，施工至考試院周邊期間，儘量調整考期或考試地點，以提供考生寧靜的應考環境並兼顧加快南環段之施工進度、縮短工期。","四、基隆捷運、捷運汐止民生線","基隆捷運由新北市府興建，從南港到八堵，全長15.59公里，其中樟樹灣到汐止區公所與汐東捷運共線，並共用社后機廠。新北捷運局長表示，基隆捷運目前在基本設計，年底設計完成後，按照程序會報經費審議到工程會，整體工程預計明年6月招標。","地方期盼10多年的捷運民生汐止線，行經北市大同、中山、松山、內湖及新北汐止，預計路線長度17.4公里，場站包含地下8站與高架7站、1座機場。北市段路線全長約11公里，8座地下站、1座高架站共9座車站，系統型式與汐東捷運一致，使用獨立路權的中運量LRRT系統服務，未來採「一車直達」與基隆捷運結合形成完整路網。台北捷運局為加速建設，攜手新北捷運局合作台北市段綜合規劃作業。台北捷運局指出，民生汐止線可行性研究2011年12月19日奉行政院核定，2020年11月2日全線環評獲環保署同意備查。考量台北市區沿線未來發展潛力、運輸系統特性、道路系統條件，以及台北都會區捷運系統整體路網銜接便利性，參酌地方民意，研擬北市段路線方案，將與已核定的汐東捷運銜接。北市段綜合規劃報告書已提報中央審議，核定後將串聯淡水信義線、中和新蘆線及環狀線東環段，構成台北都會區完整捷運路網，也可帶動大同、中山、松山首都核心發展，並配合內湖內科2.0發展計畫，讓優勢產業發揮群聚效益，地區機能相互支援，增進產業發展綜效。請交通部加速審議作業。","汐東捷運線總長5.56公里，起於北市內湖區蘆洲里，先東向抵達新北汐止區的社后機廠與SB11車站後，在福德一路與同興路轉彎往東南到同興路SB12站，接著通過新社后橋後抵樟樹灣的SB13站。接著從汐止大同路一段向東北，穿過北二高橋下設置SB14站，再南轉康誥坑溪東轉往新台五路，至汐止區公所設置終點站，共計6站。採LRRT中運量自動駕駛系統，每列車可乘載530人，其中樟樹灣至汐止公所將與基隆捷運共線、共站、共用社后機廠，SB14可與台鐵汐科站銜接轉乘。汐東線也將在SB10站設計約300公尺長的電動步道與文湖線東湖站轉乘。","汐東捷運總建設經費376.93億元，基隆捷運計畫分擔98.47億元，中央同意先行匡列278.46億元，新北市負擔220.5億元，中央補助57.96億元。新北市議員白珮茹指出，汐東線是高架設計，且汐東線是打通社後地區十幾萬人口的重要路廊，汐東線難度在於橫跨雙北市與基隆，若不趕快標出去，未來恐怕還會面臨更多挑戰。因受近期原物料高漲、缺工等影響，推升重大公共工程的營建成本，並造成公共工程流標率大幅提升。未來招標、施工上如遇到各種關卡，期盼中央多給予地方經費上的支持，協助地方縮短施工工期，提高工程效率。","基隆捷運預計於今年底設計完成後，按照程序會報經費審議送至公共工程委員會。本席期許未來基隆捷運相關設計、經費報告等送至公程會後，公共工程委員會能鼎力相助新北市、基隆市府，以回應汐止、基隆數十萬民眾的期待，並期許基隆捷運整體工程能順利於明年6月招標。","五、安城快速道路、華城快速道路","華城快速道路","為改善新店、安坑地區交通問題，並整合北二高道路、新店溪東西兩岸環快，新北市府積極推動「安坑1號道路」，並於民國92年完成「安坑1號道路可行性研究及路線規劃」，且環境影響說明書分別已於93、96年通過，安坑1號道路第三期業於104年擇定替代路線，起點為安一路，路線橫越華城路、永業路，且行經新店區灣潭自辦市地重劃區，終點至臺9甲線（新烏路）。鑒於104年擇定替代路線至今已間隔近十年，考量路廊通過區域存在新社區開發、道路線形變化及日益增長之交通需求等因素，為減少房屋拆遷、降低生態環境衝擊、分析交通流量及檢討法規適當性等事宜，有必要於上位規劃階段重新檢視前期規劃與現狀之具體差異。預計113年5月完成檢討前期規劃，並預計114年1月完成環境差異分析。","原定安坑一號道路第3-1A標（華城快速道路），從新店華城路連接安坑交流道約5.5公里，是連結大台北華城、青山鎮等社區5千多位居民及學生的重要聯外道路。隨著通貨膨脹以及營造成本提高影響，粗估經費約需30億元，本席期望中央能優先補助新北市政府完成此路段。","另有關安坑道路第2-4期路段（安泰路至安康路三段）目前新北市政府納入都市計畫通盤檢討，後續視整體區域人口及交通需求發展情形，評估開發成本效益後，再行辦理後續作業。屆時新北市政府提交中央時，請公共工程委員會、交通部或營建署等機關大力支持。","安城快速道路","依交通部高公局統計資料顯示，國道三號安坑至中和路段不論平假日皆為易壅塞路段，而此路段受地形影響，已難以進行拓寬工程。為疏導車流避開此一路段，本席建議交通部另闢「安城快速道路」，由安坑一號道路沿五城向土城清水交流道方向開通，除可作為國道三號安坑至中和路段的替代道路之外，亦可提供土城與新店安坑便捷的交通路廊，亦可提高安坑一號道路之效益。又「安城快速道路」未來恐須以隧道工程等方式進行，經費上尚須公共工程委員會、交通部或營建署等機關大力支持新北市政府。","六、央北環快、國道高架段","新店十四張B單元都市計畫案（即十四張重劃區），在中央審議長達11年之久，終於在今年五月獲內政部都市計畫委員會審議通過。對此，新北市城鄉局表示，占地面積逾34公頃的十四張重劃區，未來將配合地區發展需求，預計規劃機關、社會福利設施、學校、公園等用地，補足都市所需的公共設施，預計在明年中公告區段徵收計畫，並於2027上半年工程完工。由於十四張重劃區位處捷運環狀線南機廠周邊，將配合捷運環狀線十四張站及安坑輕軌十四張站，規劃周邊道路系統及停車場兼轉運站用地，並新設各類公設用地約19.77公頃，比例高達57%，設有包括機關用地、社會福利設施用地和學校用地等，另外，也規劃公園用地複合使用，並設置地下化的水資源中心，以及公園綠地等。","規劃中的十四張聯開案幅員逾4萬坪，不但是十四張重劃區備受矚目的投資案，更是全國最大的捷運聯開案，將納入商業、住宅和社福等項目。而與其緊鄰的新店央北重劃區也在持續發展中，移入人口正急速增加。在上下班交通尖峰時段已出現塞車情形，未來隨著周邊開發案的完成，人口大量進駐，車流壅塞恐怕更嚴重。","新店央北重劃區及甫通過十四張重劃區相比鄰，當地主要聯外道路僅有兩條，分別是環河路及中央路往來國道或台北方向。隨著十四張重劃區、十四張捷運站聯開案的發展，未來至少再成長兩萬戶人口進駐，對於未來將成長的交通需求應及早規劃。當地里長與居民已向新北市政府建議：加蓋高架快速道路，分別銜接環河快速道路台北方向與國道三號交流道，以有效舒緩當地車流。新北交通局也了解到地方的需求，目前主要是經費問題，以及是否會影響水利地、禁限建等的技術問題等，研究評估經費約需2500萬，本席希望院長以及交通部這邊體察地方需求，爭取中央能夠協助新北市政府取得相關經費，來將當地交通情況評估到最詳細。新北市府除了評估另蓋道路外，同時也會做周邊道路整體規畫，包含溪園路與環河路規畫、央北重劃區到十四張捷運站、另一條往國道的銜接道等，達到確實舒緩車流、解決交通壅塞情形。","七、新店、大文山地區停車位供不應求亟待解決","新店區人口已超過30萬人，長年因用地狹小，人口成長迅速，以致停車需求量大。鑒於新店高中已改建為地下停車場，使用率非常高，時常一位難求。本席建議可參考新店高中的前例，利用新店各國中小興建地下停車場，例如新店的大豐國小、中正國小、北新國小、安坑國小、新和國小及文山國中、五峰國中；坪林區坪林國中等，以解決民眾停車需求。故此，本席特別要請教交通部長，是否可提供新北市政府經費補助，推動改建中小學地下停車場，以解決新店、大文山地區老舊社區長年以來停車位欠缺的問題。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝院長。","下一位請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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在物價飆漲很可惜另外一個基隆捷運"},{"start":863.601,"end":884.576,"text":"捷運汐止名聲線的問題同樣是捷運我在新店那個地方安坑清軌都已經完工開始通車了也非常感謝我們交通部還有所有相關人員做得很好你看過20年過了汐止還在那邊空喊說這個汐止名聲線"},{"start":887.521,"end":912.54,"text":"也跟委員報告矽東縣主要是當時它是跟矽紫民生縣掛在一起但是臺北市當時它對矽紫民生縣有一些疑慮因為都有一些問題所以後來大家有達成交通部跟我們新北市政府大家達成共識有問題就是要協調克服那因為本席來自地方也拜託院長關心一下安城快速道路的這個興建"},{"start":913.476,"end":913.596,"text":"謝謝董事長"}]}},{"id":"154570","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154570","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb6182a828745216a4494a09fb1100d58f4bedf33c4bcbc9cfa93a950302871400d155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:17:23 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09:33:27","影片長度":"00:16:04","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T09:17:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T09:33:27+08:00","duration":964,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":66,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時17分）謝謝副院長。主席，麻煩有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：卓院長好。在開始今天交通組的總質詢之前，有一件非常重要的事情，我想必須要提醒您注意，這件事情是我們的海基會董事長鄭文燦在上個週末的時候，以500萬元被法院重保交保，涉貪，從法院所發布的新聞稿非常清楚地呈現了，他的確有收受500萬元不當的金流。這件事情我之所以有必要要提醒院長注意，也要請教院長，這件事情接下來當然就進入司法機關偵辦，我們都尊重，這個沒有問題，但問題是什麼？問題是這一個土地開發弊案受賄的情節，在2017年9月的時候就已經有監聽譯文了，2017年9月的時候就找到金流了，在那個時候就已經要偵辦了，為什麼後來案子被壓下來、被簽結？這件事情很嚴重，這攸關了我國整個司法上的信譽，為什麼那個時候案子竟然無疾而終、辦不下去？沒有辦法約談、沒有辦法搜索，院長，這件事情你有沒有掌握？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。委員心中的這個疑慮，我想社會上大家也難免有同樣的想法，我也認為一個案件，檢調單位當然有他辦案的速度、步驟、程序等等，但是在適當的時間，而且在案件沒有被……"],["黃委員國昌：隔了7年以後，你認為是適當的時間嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說如果在適當的時間，他可以對外或是進行收案的動作的話，對案件的釐清應該是更有幫助的。"],["黃委員國昌：目前除了鄭文燦個人所繫屬的案件偵辦以外，我今天之所以跟院長提這件事情，是牽涉到我們的法務部在處理這個案子的時候，第一個，有沒有人壓案？第二個更嚴重地，顯然是消息有洩漏，大概過了一年的時間，消息有洩漏、監聽的內容有洩漏，所以鄭文燦匆匆忙忙地把那500萬還回去了，這還有洩密有問題啊！院長，你認為需不需要徹查？"],["卓院長榮泰：徹查法務部長？"],["黃委員國昌：不是，徹查當初為什麼這個案子被簽結？為什麼沒有辦法動？當初這個案子為什麼監聽的譯文會流出去？導致鄭文燦收到風、把匯款還回去，這件事情不需要查嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我剛剛說除了檢調單位的辦案程序、步驟之外，民主的臺灣應該不會有人要去壓任何一個案子，但是這件事情除了現在的法律釐清之餘，對過去的處理程序、行政上有沒有必要做檢討，我認為法務部可以去瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：法務部有必要去做調查嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：可以去瞭解過去的行政上有沒有任何更好的作為。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事情茲事體大，攸關全民對我國司法信譽跟人民對司法的信任，法務部有必要徹查，給全體國人一個交代，當初這件事情到底是怎麼發生的？這是我今天一開始的時候……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：因為事關重大，我覺得有必要當面跟院長提醒這件事情，我們的法務部應該要給社會一個清楚的交代！","回到今天質詢的主題，我們在討論NCC被提名人的時候，執政黨不斷地強調，基於責任一體、基於責任政治、基於行政一體的概念，NCC委員應該由行政院院長提名，這個才是責任政治的展現。我們台灣民眾黨黨團公開呼籲過好幾次，希望卓榮泰院長能夠跟社會大眾表示，對這4位人選您到底是支不支持、背不背書？因為大家都知道這4個不是你提的，你一開始上任的時候，你說你要一些時間去瞭解，我們大家都願意給你時間，那瞭解到今天，現在的行政院願不願意幫這4個NCC被提名人背書？因為這直接攸關了我們在討論行政一體、在討論責任政治的時候，我們到底要不要進行實質審查？這個是不是行政院願意背書的名單？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩個事情跟委員報告。第一個，4位委員我們在最近幾天以前有再一一跟他們詢問，當初拜託他們、提名他們的過程，現在我們如數地再向立法院做一個確認，這個要再徵求他們的意願，否則時間過這麼久。第二個，我記得應該是6月25號，大院的程序委員會曾經就這個提名案、這個同意權再做一次不予列案的決定，否則在6月底跟7月初的院會就能處理，所以這個事情在大院裡面也一直進行當中，因此現在……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在是問你的立場……"],["卓院長榮泰：我的態度……"],["黃委員國昌：你4位談完了以後，現在這4位你是不是都背書？因為這牽涉到接下來的審查程序，如果這4個被提名人有不適格狀況的話，到底是誰要負這個行政責任？我相信我這個問題非常公平。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我的態度是，既然6月25號大院的程序委員會就曾經討論過，那就讓這個繼續進行下去……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你願意幫這4個被提名人背書嗎？基於我們剛剛所講的行政一體、責任政治，這是你願意背書的對象嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前我傾向就照原案進行。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這4位你都願意背書嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：提名。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦，行政院提名是行政院長要負責嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：好！"],["黃委員國昌：我們就是不希望把前面行政院長的鍋甩到你身上，所以善意地給你再一次機會考慮，你願意幫這4位背書，我今天在這邊負責任的跟院長報告，你只要願意背書，台灣民眾黨黨團就支持實質審查；你如果覺得你有其他的考慮要重新提名，我們也願意支持你的決定，現在就看院長你的決定是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一，因為我說大院還在進行相關的程序，而且4位被提名人的意願，我們到現在為止沒有明確地跟過去大大的不同，所以我們就按照原來的4位再請大院來進行相關程序。"],["黃委員國昌：這個問題來來回回詢答了這麼多次，我應該可以認為說你願意幫這4位背書，沒有問題吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：就延續下去。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛？好，接下來，黨政軍退出媒體還是不是民進黨的價值？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是。"],["黃委員國昌：當然是嘛？好，但問題是在具體的實踐上有沒有做到，我相信社會都有一把尺啦！現在到底是黨政軍退出媒體還是黨政軍就是媒體，這件事情每一個公民心裡都有一把尺，但我不喜歡談抽象的事情，我喜歡談具體的事情。","我去年回到立法院之前，我就直接公開質疑過這件事情，我們的電視新聞臺竟然可以去入主這麼大的中嘉有線電視系統，跨越了反媒體壟斷的紅線，我當初提出所有的證據，指證歷歷，那個時候也有不同黨派的立法委員在立法院關心這件事情，我們的NCC經過調查，確認當初檢舉的內容是真實無誤的，但我們大家就在懷疑一件事情，今天一個跨越反媒體壟斷紅線做了不應該做的事情的三立集團，這件事情NCC已經澈查認為確有其事，但是為什麼三立卻沒有受到任何的處罰？院長你覺得這樣對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是請NCC說明？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員說明一下，就這個案子來講，是三立股東的投資，所以這個案子我們查的，誠如剛才委員所講的，目前這個投資……"],["黃委員國昌：是三立的股東啦！就他們的董事長張榮華嘛？就講白話文就好了嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以就是股東嘛！所以我們現在已經命其把這個相關的股份處分掉……"],["黃委員國昌：處分掉了嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：中嘉現在在處分當中，我們現在已經請他們處理……"],["黃委員國昌：我先跟你釐清一個概念，做出違法行為的人是三立，或者是你要講張榮華也可以……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：股東，這應該是股東……"],["黃委員國昌：對，但為什麼他沒有得到任何處罰？這個是社會大眾的疑慮嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯，因為我們目前的廣電三法裡面來講的話，對這些個人股東，廣電三法的主要規範對象是事業，不是個人，所以目前來講，沒有辦法用相關的作用法去處罰他……"],["黃委員國昌：你認為這種行為應不應該處罰？明明就知道紅線在那裡，明明就知道NCC的附款不允許做這件事，還執意去做，還欺騙NCC！被抓到了以後卻沒有任何處罰，這樣對嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：問題是說在法律授權上我們現在沒有辦法……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我問你的是，你認為這個行為該不該處罰？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：該處罰，是要有法律依據。"],["黃委員國昌：該處罰嘛？好！這件事情你講過了，所以我今天特別請教你，你說要修衛廣法。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我等了好幾個月，草案在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：草案還在我們會裡面。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候可以生出來？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我們現在基本上來講是在換屆當中，所以你說什麼時候可以……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個是下一屆NCC委員的鍋就對了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是鍋的問題，而是這個本來是個延續的……"],["黃委員國昌：這個事情拖得越久，不就讓這一些媒體大亨可以逍遙越久？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有要拖的問題，而是說……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候可以提出來？要等下一屆NCC委員才知道，來！請教院長，您認為這麼重要的法案什麼時候應該提出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會先瞭解現在通傳會進行的草案內容，交給下一屆新的NCC委員的時候，我們會把這個列為優先，請他……"],["黃委員國昌：優先法案嘛？我希望下個會期優先法案，因為我們也有提出衛廣法的修法，我們除了要去制裁這一種明知道紅線在哪裡，跨越紅線對他卻毫無處罰的這種惡質媒體之外，我們還希望股權要透明、補助要透明、財務要透明、要接受社會公眾的監督，這三個原則院長支不支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：大的原則當然是往這個方向，再蒐集更多各方的意見，我們把它認為一個比較完善的修法……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦！院長承諾這個是優先法案，我們下個會期拭目以待。賴清德總統說打詐、掃黑、肅貪是政府的重要任務，院長同不同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是，我們在治安會報的時候就提出這樣的一個決心。"],["黃委員國昌：好！但大家現在覺得很困惑的是什麼？被查獲害人無數、不法詐欺吸金所得二十幾億的王牌交易所，結果竟然跟三立集團在洗錢的網絡當中有一個萓篆公司，不僅是設立在三立的大樓裡面，甚至什麼？這家公司也不只是跟三立合資，它的監察人還是三立派的。我們過去在討論打詐的時候，是說網路上有很多不實的資訊，大家不要相信那不實的資訊，要求網路平臺業者要去除不實的資訊，結果現在什麼？在幫詐欺集團散播假新聞，讓無辜的社會大眾去買那些垃圾的虛擬貨幣，不法獲利二十幾億的，竟然是領我們NCC執照的有線電視新聞臺。院長，你覺得這件事情嚴不嚴重，屬不屬於現在的政府要嚴厲打詐的對象？"],["卓院長榮泰：日前媒體有揭露這樣的事實，依法辦理……"],["黃委員國昌：這不是媒體揭露啦！這個是我檢舉的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：那謝謝委員的辛苦，我們會依照法律來處理這件事情，也許依照我們的打詐……"],["黃委員國昌：會依照法律來處理，怎麼處理？依照什麼法律、怎麼處理？講清楚，不要講空話，依照法律處理，我當然贊成嘛！但人民要看到的是什麼，人民要看到政府的打詐不是口號，是行動，你要依據什麼法律、怎麼處理？請教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在當然法務部也好，內政部也好，他們都有相關的來處理這些事情，整個過程當中，現在在進行當中，我也不宜多講啊！"],["黃委員國昌：我現在跟院長報告一件事，不是叫進行當中，這叫已經進行結束了，檢察官已經起訴了，偵查終結了，在起訴的犯罪事實裡，提到了這個萓篆公司在詐欺、洗錢的網絡當中，但是提到了這個公司在詐欺、洗錢的網絡當中，然後呢？然後就沒有然後了，這是為什麼……"],["卓院長榮泰：還有法院的程序進行。"],["黃委員國昌：這是為什麼我要公……沒有起訴，怎麼會有法院的程序，院長，你也幫幫忙！檢察官要起訴，法院才能審判；檢察官沒有處理，法院要判什麼啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說有法律的程序要進行。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望法務部要追查下去，但我為什麼在交通組處理這件事情？這個是有線電視新聞臺，這是拿到國家特許的耶！NCC要怎麼處理？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員說明，我們現在在處理當中了，在行政調查，這有沒有剛才委員所講的，這些個案裡面來講的話，有沒有事實查證……"],["黃委員國昌：我就直接跟你講嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：或是認為變成有所謂詐欺的手段，我們要調查清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：三立政論節目跟詐團的假新聞平臺強強聯手，這個Potato 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就討論過,那就讓這個會議繼續的進行下去。所以你願意幫這四個被提名人背書嗎?基於我們剛剛所講的行政議題責任政治,這是你願意背書的對象嗎?目前我傾向就照原案來做進行。所以這四位你都願意背書嗎?"},{"start":401.914,"end":402.136,"text":"提名。"},{"start":403.923,"end":431.573,"text":"行政院提名是行政院長要負責嘛我們就是不希望把前面行政院長的鍋甩到你身上所以給你善意的給你再一次的機會考慮你願意幫這四位背書我今天在這邊負責任的跟院長報告臺灣民眾黨黨團你只要願意背書我們就支持實質審查你如果覺得你有其他的考慮要重新提名我們也願意支持你的決定現在就看院長你的決定是什麼"},{"start":432.486,"end":432.606,"text":"接下來"},{"start":459.774,"end":471.245,"text":"黨戰軍退出媒體還是不是民進黨的價值當然是當然是嘛好但問題是在具體的實踐上有沒有做到我相信社會都有一把尺啦"},{"start":472.242,"end":491.449,"text":"現在到底是黨政軍退出媒體還是黨政軍就是媒體這件事情每一個公民心裡都有一把尺但我不喜歡談抽象的事情我喜歡談具體的事情我去年回到立法院之前我就直接公開質疑過這件事情我們"},{"start":493.393,"end":508.198,"text":"有我們的電視新聞台竟然可以去入主可以去入主這麼大的中加有線電視系統跨越了反媒體壟斷的紅線我當初提出所有的證據"},{"start":509.383,"end":526.526,"text":"指正立例那個時候也有不同黨派的立法委員在立法院關心這件事情我們的NCC經過調查確認當初檢舉的內容是真實無誤的是真實無誤的但我們大家就在懷疑一件事情"},{"start":527.347,"end":544.844,"text":"今天一個跨越反媒體壟斷紅線做了不應該做的事情的三立集團為什麼這件事情NCC已經徹查認為確有其事但是三立卻沒有受到任何的處罰院長你覺得這樣對嗎"},{"start":546.397,"end":567.038,"text":"是不是請NCC說明?好,跟委員說明一下齁,這個案子來講是3億的股東的投資,所以這個案子我們查,就程度剛才委員所講的,他目前這個投資的部分...不是3億的股東啦,就他們的董事長張榮華嘛,就講白話文就好了嘛。所以就是股東嘛,所以我們現在已經命期把這個相關的這個股份處分掉嘛。"},{"start":567.338,"end":581.531,"text":"處分掉了嗎?我先給你釐清一個概念做出違法行為的人是三立或者是你要講張榮華也可以但為什麼他沒有得到任何處罰?"},{"start":582.512,"end":582.672,"text":"你認為這種行為應不應該處罰?"},{"start":600.794,"end":626.993,"text":"明明就知道紅線在那裡明明就知道NCC的付款不允許做這件事還執意去做還欺騙NCC被抓到了以後沒有任何處罰這樣對嗎問題是說在法律授權上我們現在沒有辦法現在我問你的是你認為這個行為該不該處罰該處罰但是要有法律依據好這件事情你講過了所以我今天特別請教你你說"},{"start":628.41,"end":647.607,"text":"要修衛廣法。我等了好幾個月。草案在哪裡?草案還在我們會裡面。什麼時候可以申得出來?委員我們現在基本上來講是換屆當中啦。所以說你說所以這個是下一屆NCC委員的鍋就對了?不是鍋的問題而是這個我們本來是可以延續的這個事情拖得越久"},{"start":648.618,"end":662.394,"text":"就不就讓這些媒體大亨可以逍遙越久。沒有要拖的問題而是說什麼時候可以提出來下一屆NCC委員才知道來請教院長院長您認為這麼重要的法案什麼時候應該提出來"},{"start":664.258,"end":692.823,"text":"我會先了解現在通常會進行的草案內容那交下一屆的新政經濟委員的時候我們會把這個列為優先請他優先法案嘛我希望下個會期優先法案因為我們也有提出衛廣法的修法我們除了要去制裁這一種明知道紅線在哪裡跨越紅線對他卻毫無處罰這種惡質的媒體之外我們還希望股權要透明"},{"start":694.16,"end":713.234,"text":"補助要透明,財務要透明,要接受社會公眾的監督,這三個原則院長是不是支持?這個大的原則當然是往這個方向,那再收集更多各方的意見,我們把它弄為一個比較完善的修法。沒關係啊,院長承諾這是優先法案,我們下個會期啊,拭目以待。"},{"start":714.438,"end":738.428,"text":"賴清德總統說打詐、找黑、樹攤是政府的重要任務。院長同不同意?當然是,我們在資安會報的時候就提出這樣的一個決心。好,但大家現在覺得很困惑的是什麼?被查獲的害人無數、不法詐欺吸金所的20幾億的王牌交易所"},{"start":739.503,"end":757.478,"text":"結果竟然跟我們的三立集團在洗錢的網絡當中有一個遺傳公司不僅是設立在三立的大樓裡面甚至這家公司也不只是跟三立合資他的監察人還是三立派的"},{"start":759.09,"end":781.521,"text":"我們過去在討論打詐的時候是說網路上有很多不實的資訊大家不要相信那不實的資訊要求網路平台業者要去除不實的資訊結果現在什麼在幫詐欺集團散播假新聞讓無辜的社會大眾去買那些垃圾的虛擬貨幣"},{"start":783.274,"end":785.375,"text":"這不是媒體揭露啦 這個是我檢舉的啦"},{"start":805.694,"end":829.05,"text":"那謝謝委員的辛苦 那我們會依照法律來處理這件事情我依照法律來處理怎麼處理 依照什麼法律怎麼處理 講清楚 不要講空話依照法律處理我當然贊成嘛 但人民要看到的是什麼 人民要看到政府不是打詐不是口號是行動 你要依據什麼法律怎麼處理 請教委員長"},{"start":830.536,"end":856.651,"text":"現在當然法務部也好內政部也好他們都有相關的來處理這些事情那整個過程當中現在在進行當中我也不宜多講阿我現在跟院長報告一件事啦不是叫進行當中這叫已經進行結束了檢察官已經起訴了偵查終結了在起訴的犯罪事實裡提到了這一段公司在這個詐欺洗錢的網絡當中"},{"start":858.322,"end":885.633,"text":"但是提到了這個公司在這個詐欺洗錢的網絡當中然後呢?然後就沒有然後這是為什麼?這是為什麼我要沒有起訴怎麼會有法院的程序?院長你幫幫忙檢察官要起訴法院才能審判檢察官沒有處理法院要判什麼啊?我希望喔法務部這要追查下去但我為什麼在交通組處理這件事情這個是有線電視新聞台"},{"start":887.43,"end":909.895,"text":"這是拿到國家特許的欸!NCC要怎麼處理?跟委員說明我們現在在處理當中的在行政調查這個有沒有跟委員所講的在個案裡面來講的話有沒有事實查證或是認為變成有所謂詐欺的這個手段這個三密政論節目跟詐團的假新聞平台強強聯手"},{"start":911.875,"end":929.867,"text":"這個Potato Media是詐欺集團裡面網絡的一份子,這不是我說的。這個是檢察官說的。這是內容農場。這個是整個詐騙集團他們成立的公司。詐騙集團成立的內容農場跟三立合作,這件事情NCC要查多久?還需要多久?"},{"start":937.478,"end":937.498,"text":"謝謝黃委員"}]}},{"id":"154569","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154569","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb618c27bba9baf89fde8a09fb1100d58f4bedf33c4bcbc9cfa9319bde232eb5524465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:01:08 - 09:17:10","影片長度":"00:16:02","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T09:01:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T09:17:10+08:00","duration":962,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":18,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時1分）謝謝主席，麻煩院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：院長早。"],["卓院長榮泰：早。"],["王委員定宇：我今天本來準備一堆跟我們這組有關係的題目，但是現在社會關注我們重大刑案頻傳，在臺灣各縣市，不管是槍擊案件或者是重大的刑事案件，除了對當事人造成傷害以外，對於社會的安定、民心的穩定，都有重大的影響。你身為全國最高行政首長，在掌管國家的時候，百姓的安全感最重要，請問院長，對於最近這些刑事案件，你有什麼樣的看法以及具體的作法？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個當然很痛心，臺灣社會發生這樣一個重大的槍擊事件，但是也讓我們更下定決心，向委員報告，6月24號行政院第一次我主持的治安會報當中，就已經下達這樣的一個指示，所以隔天我們就展開了綠能掃黑肅貪的行動，從6月25號就開始，所以當中包括雲林議長的案件也是在這個肅貪行動中被我們所查獲的。"],["王委員定宇：這是綠能掃黑嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：同時本來預計從7月9號開始就會進行全國同步掃黑及肅貪的行動。"],["王委員定宇：院長，我要提醒，我們現在在院會，當你現在講說我們幾月幾號要開始進行所謂的掃黑，有問題的都「坐桶子」跑出去了。"],["卓院長榮泰：今天就開始了。"],["王委員定宇：馬上就要開始，我希望是你現在講話的當下……"],["卓院長榮泰：就開始了。"],["王委員定宇：外面該動手就動手啦！個案我認為我不宜在這邊詢問，我相信警政署會全力儘快地偵破任何個案，任何人命的損傷都是我們所重視的，所以這樣的掃黑，除了希望安穩人心，讓社會治安能夠提升以外，你這兩波的掃黑還有沒有什麼其他的思考在裡面？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們除了會向社會大眾來公布整個成果之外，我覺得我們更需要有比較多的利器在手上，不論是肅貪、不論是掃黑，甚至打詐，我們都希望院內、大院的打詐四法能夠儘速通過，讓我們手上握有利器。再來，我們對於警方的士氣，我們要予以鼓勵，包括他的設備要如何能夠趕得上這個潮流、這個時代的需要。再來就是我覺得讓人民覺得心安，就是大家一起來做這樣的一件事情。"],["王委員定宇：我們希望今天，因為我們現在在這邊詢答的時候，你已經展開了嘛！所以我們希望能夠……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，早上我已經邀集相關部會首長再做最後一次這一次的……"],["王委員定宇：我相信我們稍後會看到一些成果。我接下來請教，當然這跟經濟部、交通部都有關係，我們交通部長李孟諺部長在相關的部分可以來做補充。你知道中國的電動巴士曾經大舉進入臺灣市場，它化整為零拆散開來，拆散開來之後它做了什麼事情呢？因為我們臺灣在補助柴油車換電動車的時候，我講的是公共運輸的巴士，你知道單輛最高可以補助680萬臺幣，我們到2030年前整筆預算各部會加總起來是430億左右，要把臺灣老舊污染的柴油車換成電動巴士。有人化整為零進口中國的，在臺灣組裝，然後詐領，那時候規範有漏洞，就來領了我們相關的補助，當時包含臺中的BRT車輛都有人懷疑是南京車廠的，好，這過去了。後來經濟部訂了10項標準，10個必須localize，這10項必須是臺灣本土製造生產，才能符合柴油換電動巴的補助，有這10項。","所以我是希望我們交通部長也好，或者是院長指示的經濟部，當然這是第一階段，但除了這10項，未來能不能輔導更多的單項在地化，讓我們的業者可以進入？因為全世界現在都在用傾銷稅抵制中國的電動車，包含印度、包含歐美，所以臺灣的產業界是有機會的。產業界的第一桶金、第一個機會就是本土市場，既然我們花了430億要把臺灣老舊柴油巴士換成電動巴士的時候，過去那種類似來臺灣組裝洗產地的方式當然不容再發生，但現行只有規定10項，Made in Taiwan就符合補助辦法，應該還要再隨時進行檢討，我不知道院長對這個有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長先回答，我最後會綜合再補充。"],["王委員定宇：部長，你在當秘書長時就知道這件事了嘛！請說。"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，經濟部有一個專案小組會審核，目前我知道經濟部審核通過的廠商有3家，那3家都是做電動巴士的廠商，由縣市政府來申請，它可以自由選擇經濟部核准的……"],["王委員定宇：部長，因為電動巴士是一個系統，它下面有很多單項的產業，所以我只是想說目前的做法OK，因為有些像電池芯我們不會做，但目前的做法是列出10項，有這10項，這台車就當作是本土的，然後就可以來領我剛剛講最高600多萬的補助款，從370到600多萬不等。我是說我們行政院應該更進一步，交通部、經濟部，甚至於相關部會整合起來，這些系統下面的品項，像是可不可以變11項、12項？慢慢地逐步讓這些產業在臺灣願意在地深耕，這是我第一個建議。"],["李部長孟諺：這我們可以跟經濟部一起來……"],["王委員定宇：我覺得這個要快，因為產業的機會稍縱即逝，像前幾年如果沒有國艦國造的話，我們臺灣的造船業現在不知道剩下誰了！所以我現在講的另外一個情形是，美國在5月份宣布對中國的電動車，這講的就不只是巴士喔，是所有電動車輛課徵100%的反傾銷稅，歐盟7月加徵最高37.6%的反補貼臨時關稅，其實也是反傾銷稅，臺灣現在只有禁止整車進口，化整為零進來組裝掛臺灣品牌的所在多有，明明是中國車，但在臺灣掛臺灣品牌，有些業者就會鑽這個漏洞啦！","我要這邊提醒行政院，中國為什麼被課徵反傾銷稅？有三個原因，除了它的安全以及資安問題以外，它是用國家資本，就是用中國政府的錢鉅額補貼他們的電動車產業，然後形成不對稱的競爭、不對等的競爭，所以被課徵反傾銷稅。好，現在中國車銷歐美沒辦法，印度也要禁止了，它當然還要找它的市場出路，所以臺灣如果不注意這個現象的話，臺灣市場可能會變成它要銷庫存的地方，他們現在倉庫裡面一堆，臺灣會變成銷庫存的地方，對我們的產業發展沒有幫助，對臺灣的經濟結構也會影響。我不知道院長對於中國電動車在歐美這些國家被課徵反傾銷稅，臺灣會不會考慮採取調查？我們反傾銷稅之前先要經濟部立案調查，調查之後，成立之後才會定稅率。就中國電動車在臺灣，現在看得出來有跡象開始在進來了，化整為零，我們行政院跟交通部的態度是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。當然我們有注意到這一點，世界上的潮流是這樣用關稅來保護自己國人的安全跟整個產業的生存發展，臺灣在這種不公平的競爭底下，我覺得我們更應該有先前的思考，同時不只電動車，我覺得對一般的傳統燃油車，現在化整為零進口的方式……"],["王委員定宇：也很多。"],["卓院長榮泰：雖然我們對自製的比例目前沒有非常明顯的規定，但是如果自製的比例偏低，而且用這種化整為零的方式投機取巧進來，對本國的產業造成傷害的話，我想政府在這個方面會嚴加去調查瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝院長。它化整為零進來，變成它其實是assembled，在臺灣組裝，除了洗產地，會不會影響臺灣出口到其他國家的信譽以外，對於臺灣，我再強調一次，汽車產業是系統產業，它裡面有很多不同的系統，這樣子一進來之後，我們原來的業者連發展的機會都沒有，所以行政院、經濟部相關的單位應該要開始啟動調查，自製率偏低或者根本就是化整為零來這邊組裝、鑽漏洞的，要開始進行處理。你如果不處理的話，臺灣的產業會被他們帶衰，他們現在被人家處罰嘛！然後我們自己也不能發展，是不是院長可以開始立即處理這個事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。我們已經在瞭解，今天委員跟我們提出這樣的建議之後，我們會馬上開始執行這樣的調查跟瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝。李孟諺部長請回，請數發部部長上來，你邊走我邊提題目。","數發部成立以後，我們通過了資通安全管理法修正草案，好事，因為不管是資安或者數位產業本來就是未來發展，也是臺灣的強項，IT有硬體、有軟體，我先請教部長，現在就你瞭解，我們的資安相關人員流動率高還是低？"],["黃部長彥男：如果以政府部門來講，因為外面也蠻多需要人才，所以是有些流動。"],["王委員定宇：流動率其實不低喔！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["王委員定宇：那原因除了外部誘因以外，坦白講，政府內部的資安人才不會單純因為外面薪資高就出去，政府還是一個提供安穩就業，他可以有發展的空間，尤其數發部這麼新的部會，從各部會把這些資安人才找來，他怎麼可能待一待就跑掉呢？我不知道部長就任之後，有沒有去盤點這個問題，數發部資安署相關單位成立之後，各單位的資安人才跑到你這邊來了，然後產生第一個問題，原來各單位的資安人才補進來了沒？補得好不好？夠不夠專業？這個我覺得院長的高度，因為資安就是國安，資安動輒損失千百億，數發部一成立，各單位的都跑來了嘛！那找來之後，原來單位空缺的資安人員補的到底是什麼樣的人，這是第一個問題。第二個，數發部的資安人員、相關的人才進來之後，業務量跟人員的比例相不相當、跟原來期望一不一樣，正在磨合，因為一個新的部會，數位發展、資安正在磨合當中又新增了很多業務，包含剛才院長揭示的打詐，這些新的業務「啪」又丟進來，所以原來的業務量，人員跟業務的比例還在磨合，新的業務量又進來，承受不了的時候就只好掛冠求去、另謀發展，這個是原因，我不曉得部長贊成我這個說法嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我想一部分對，沒有錯啦！但是我們也有一些新的，比如說有新的考試類別，多多爭取人才，我們另外也有訓練，包括資安專職人員的訓練，所以……"],["王委員定宇：部長，資安的專業能力除了要新，還要累積經驗，資安人才經驗其實很重要，如果他不斷的走，又招募新的，經驗在單位不能傳承，人才變成是幫人家做新兵訓練，所以我會建議院長跟部長這裡盤點一下數發部現在的業務跟人員，是不是該適度的在不影響總額或者相關的方式下注意勞役分配的問題？否則一個新的部會還沒有新的發展，人員的穩定其實很重要，不然你新的業務、新的人，三不五時又一直換人的話，部長不好幹喔！業務也沒辦法推動，所以本席今天用這個題目提醒院長跟部長。","接下來我要請教，因為今天時間比較短，我要謝謝卓榮泰院長就任沒有滿月就來到臺南的歸仁沙崙，那天我在旁邊，我聽了是很感動，當時宣布是在沙崙這裡，因為沙崙原來就是綠能、AI、IoT、醫療生技，大概都在那個區塊，我們那裡不管是成大醫院，或是像台積電的宿舍、訓練人才等等都在臺南高鐵站後站這個地方蓬勃發展，你那時候宣布要設置AI園區，就設在這裡。這段時間我詢問了各單位到底這個AI園區是什麼，是有一個園區、是有一個項目、還是有硬體、有產區、有產業園區等等？我不知道到目前為止院長對歸仁這個AI產業園區，你的想定是什麼？另外，NVIDIA已經宣布要到高雄，臺南有沒有機會爭取到比方像AMD或國內大廠的投資？是不是請院長摘要回答一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。因為沙崙是一個硬體設備非常新穎而且充足的地方，未來它應該是向外界去招更多國際廠商跟國內廠商，讓他們能夠進駐，AI當然是其中重要的一環……"],["王委員定宇：因為蘇姿丰跟黃仁勳都是我們臺南人，你放臺南是明智的啦，所以現在就是說這個所謂的AI園區到底有沒有具體的發展計畫？"],["卓院長榮泰：硬體設備完成之後，我們當然提供最好的條件，因為國科會主委跟這些國際的廠商關係也都很好，所以他們正在對外界把這個條件散發出去，希望廠商能夠進駐，但是我們也要有戰略的布局，所以需要多少的廠商進來……"],["王委員定宇：對，因為時間的關係，院長，我希望具體而明確，國科會主委我們很尊敬他，他是最強的投手，他也是臺南人。我覺得發展要明確，明確的布局才會讓業者覺得不是說說而已，它才會進來，它一旦選擇了不進來這裡，選擇別的地方，就沒有了，因為鳥只築巢一次，所以當你有這個計畫，其實業界就在等行政院有什麼具體計畫、位置在哪裡、面積有多大、有什麼相關的計畫，我希望行政院儘快提出具體的部分，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：甚至我們會讓整個S廊帶有一個戰略的地位，讓大家來考慮，沙崙一定是起帶頭作用之一的地方。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1136601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.980343750000003,"end":29.207843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.03846875,"end":33.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.05534375,"end":34.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.540343750000005,"end":34.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.860968750000005,"end":34.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.89471875,"end":37.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.46784375,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.58159375,"end":42.134093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.22971875,"end":54.705968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.19159375,"end":53.018468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.406593750000006,"end":53.541593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.92534375,"end":57.102218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.203468750000006,"end":57.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.59159375,"end":59.532218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.869718750000004,"end":62.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.687843750000006,"end":66.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.97409375000001,"end":68.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.33659375,"end":79.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.22096875000001,"end":90.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.97034375000001,"end":92.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.09659375000001,"end":96.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.75846875,"end":99.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.57659375,"end":101.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.92221875000001,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.71096875,"end":106.00596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.93409375,"end":109.14471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.39784375,"end":111.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.84471875000001,"end":112.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.57034375,"end":116.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.22784375,"end":126.15471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.43034375,"end":117.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.47534375000001,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.14596875,"end":131.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.68971875,"end":132.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.24221875,"end":139.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.00909375,"end":142.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.08471875,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.08034375,"end":147.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.92346875,"end":153.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.23471875,"end":159.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.50846875000002,"end":157.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.58409375000002,"end":167.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.07221875000002,"end":169.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.54034375,"end":172.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.28659375,"end":174.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.31159375000001,"end":177.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.16346875000002,"end":182.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.85471875000002,"end":185.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.17909375000002,"end":187.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.88346875000002,"end":189.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.45284375,"end":192.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.28784375,"end":197.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.46846875,"end":198.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.17284375000003,"end":203.40846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.40846875000003,"end":203.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.10034375,"end":204.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.11721875,"end":205.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.32784375,"end":209.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.42034375,"end":214.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.88784375,"end":225.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.29534375,"end":230.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.45909375000002,"end":232.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.05784375000002,"end":234.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.43721875000003,"end":236.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.19221875000002,"end":237.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.08659375000002,"end":240.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.76971875,"end":243.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.79034375,"end":265.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":266.01471875000004,"end":297.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.35159375,"end":300.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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動巴士的時候"},{"start":331.974,"end":346.715,"text":"過去那種類似來台灣組裝洗產地的方式當然不能再發生但現行只有規定10項made in Taiwan就符合補助辦法應該還要再隨時進行檢討我不知道院長對這個有什麼看法"},{"start":348.148,"end":351.089,"text":"目前經濟部有專案小組會審核,經濟部審核通過的廠商有三家,三家都是電動巴士的廠商,由縣市政府來申請,可以自由選擇經濟部核准的名單。"},{"start":374.901,"end":395.323,"text":"他下面有很多單項的產業所以我想說目前的做法OK因為有些像電磁型我們不會做目前的做法是列出10項有這10項這台車就送去本土了然後就可以來領這個最高我該講600多萬的補助款從370到600多萬不等那我是說我們行政院應該更進一步"},{"start":396.004,"end":396.184,"text":"﹚王定宇"},{"start":415.575,"end":443.773,"text":"像前幾年如果沒有國建國造的話我們台灣的造船業大概現在不知道剩下誰了所以我現在講的另外一個情形是美國在5月份宣布對中國的電動車這講的就不是巴士喔所有的電動車輛科徵100%的反請交稅歐盟7月加徵最高37.6%的反補貼臨時關稅其實也是反請交稅那台灣現在是只有禁止整車進口"},{"start":445.395,"end":451.946,"text":"華整維林進來組裝掛台灣品牌的所在多有明明是中國車但在台灣掛台灣品牌"},{"start":453.394,"end":473.172,"text":"這些有些業者就會鑽這個漏洞那我要這邊提醒行政院就是中國為什麼被苛徵反請交稅三個原因除了他的安全以及資安問題以外他是用國家的資本就用中國政府的錢巨額去補貼他們的電動車產業然後形成了不對稱的競爭不對等的競爭所以被苛徵反請交稅"},{"start":478.877,"end":493.744,"text":"好,現在中國車遭毆滅沒辦法,印度也要趕走,他當然還要找他的市場出路。所以台灣如果不注意這個現象的話,台灣市場可能會變成他,要銷他倉庫,他現在倉庫裡面一堆啊,會變銷扣準的地方。"},{"start":497.325,"end":524.717,"text":"對我們的產業發展沒有幫助對台灣的經濟結構也會影響我不知道院長對於中國電動車在歐美這些國家被科徵反傾銷稅台灣會不會考慮採取調查我們反傾銷稅之前先要經濟部立案調查調查之後成立之後才會訂稅率就中國電動車在台灣現在看得出來有跡象開始在進來化整為零我們行政院跟交通部的態度是什麼"},{"start":525.586,"end":536.101,"text":"謝謝委員當然我們有注意到這一點世界上的潮流是在這樣的用關稅來保護自己國人的安全跟整個產業的生存發展那台灣在這種"},{"start":538.715,"end":560.198,"text":"不公平的競爭底下我覺得我們更應該有先前的思考同時不只電動車我覺得這一般的傳統燃油車現在化整為零進口的方式雖然我們對自治的比例目前沒有非常明顯的規定但是如果自治的比例偏低而且用這種化整為零的方式"},{"start":561.308,"end":563.55,"text":"謝謝院長。就是說他化整為零進來,變成台灣,他其實是assembled在台灣組裝。是。"},{"start":578.706,"end":595.35,"text":"他除了洗產地會不會影響臺灣出口到其他國家的信譽以外對於臺灣我再強調一次汽車產業是系統產業他裡面有很多不同的系統這樣子一進來之後我們原來的業者連發展的機會都沒有所以行政院經濟部相關的單位應該要開始啟動調查"},{"start":598.251,"end":602.214,"text":"謝謝委員,我們已經在了解,那今天委員這樣的跟我們提出這樣的建議之後,我們會馬上開始執行這樣的調查跟了解。好謝謝,我們請李貿易院部長請回,我請速發部部長上來。"},{"start":627.352,"end":650.82,"text":"你邊走我邊提題目啦,速發部成立以後呢,我們通過了資通安全管理法修正草案,好事,因為不管是資安或者數位產業本來就是未來發展也是台灣的強項,IT有硬體有軟體,但我先請教我們部長,你現在就你了解我們的資安相關人員流動率高還是低?"},{"start":652.543,"end":672.751,"text":"如果以政府部門來講,因為外面也蠻多需要人才,所以是有些流動。流動率其實不低喔。那原因除了有外部誘因以外,坦白講政府內部的資安人才不會單純因為外面薪資高就出去了。政府還是一個提供安穩就業,他可以發展的空間,尤其速發部這麼新的部會,"},{"start":673.672,"end":687.125,"text":"從各部會把這些資安人才找來,他怎麼可能呆一呆就跑掉呢?我不知道部長就任之後有沒有去盤點這個問題。我們速發部資安署相關單位成立之後,把各單位的資安人才跑到你這邊來了。"},{"start":688.6,"end":712.426,"text":"產生第一個問題,那原來各單位的資安人才補進來了沒?補得好不好?夠不夠專業?這個我覺得院長的高度,因為資安就是國安,資安動輒損失千百億啊。我們書發部一成立,各單位都找來了嘛。那找來之後呢,原來單位空缺的資安人員補的到底是什麼樣的人?這是第一個問題。"},{"start":713.49,"end":734.639,"text":"第二個,這個蘇發部的治安人員相關的人才進來之後,業務量跟人員的比例相不相當,跟原來期望一不一樣,正在磨合,因為這些新的部會,我數位發展、治安,正在磨合當中,又新增了很多業務,包含剛才院長揭示的打炸。"},{"start":735.677,"end":738.759,"text":"我想一部分對沒有錯啦但是我們也有一些這個新的比如說我們有說新的考試類別"},{"start":766.578,"end":783.95,"text":"知安的專業能力除了要新還要累積經驗知安人才經驗其實很重要如果他不斷的走我又招募新的經驗不能傳承在單位我們人才變成是幫人家做新兵訓練所以我會建議院長跟部長這裡齁盤點一下速發部現在的業務跟人員"},{"start":789.133,"end":801.502,"text":"是不是該適度的在不影響總額或者相關的方式下去注意勞役分配的問題。否則一個新的部會還沒有新的發展人員的穩定其實很重要。沒有你新的業務、新的人"},{"start":803.442,"end":822.222,"text":"阿三不夠時又一直換人換人的話,部長不好幹喔,業務也沒辦法推動。所以本期今天用這個題目提醒院長跟部長。接下來我要請教,因為今天時間比較長。我要謝謝卓院長,卓文泰院長就任沒有滿月就來到臺南的歸仁沙崙。那天我在那邊聽得是很感動。"},{"start":823.543,"end":846.412,"text":"當時宣布是在沙崙這裡因為沙崙原來就是綠能、AI、IoT、醫療、生技大概都在那個區塊我們那裡不管是成大醫院或者是像台積電的宿舍訓練人才等等都在台南高鐵站的後站這個地方蓬勃發展那你那時候宣布要設置AI園區就設在這裡"},{"start":847.608,"end":874.688,"text":"那我這一段時間我詢問了各單位到底這個AI園區是啥是有一個園區是有一個項目還是有硬體有產區有產業園區等等我不知道到目前為止院長對歸人這個AI產業園區你的想定是什麼另外呢NVIDIA已經宣布到高雄那台南有沒有機會爭取到比方說像AMD或者國內大廠的投資那是不是請這個院長再要回答一下"},{"start":875.688,"end":895.805,"text":"謝謝委員,因為砂輪是一個非常,我想現在硬體設備非常新穎而且充足的一個地方。那未來他應該是向外界去招更多的國際廠商跟國內的廠商能夠進駐。那AI當然是其中重要的一環。因為AI兩個人蘇之鋒跟黃榮旭都我們台南人阿,你放台南是明智的啦。"},{"start":896.425,"end":921.548,"text":"但是現在就是說到底有沒有具體的發展計畫這所謂的AI園區因為我們有在硬體設備完成之後我們當然提供最好的條件那因為國科會跟這些國際的廠商這個關係也都很好我國科會的主委啊所以他們正在跟外界在把這個條件散發出去希望他們能夠但是我們也要有戰略的佈局所以要多少的廠商進來所以因為時間的關係啊院長我希望具體而明確"},{"start":923.15,"end":936.467,"text":"國客會主委我們很尊敬他,他是最強的投手,所以他也是台南人。但我覺得發展要明確,那這明確的布局才讓業者說那不是公共的,他才會進來。那他一旦選擇沒有進來這裡,選擇別的地方,"},{"start":938.49,"end":941.473,"text":"甚至我們會整個S狼帶有一個戰略的地位大家來考慮那沙倫一定是一個起帶頭作用之一"}]}},{"id":"154589","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154589","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb618ba81eb5412c2e408a09fb1100d58f4be2199544e32500e6b446cbe90ca178f225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"16:33:35 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16:49:19","影片長度":"00:15:44","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T16:33:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T16:49:19+08:00","duration":944,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":442,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（16時33分）謝謝主席，請我們院長還有我們的邱部長。"],["主席：請卓院長還有邱部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝卓院長還有邱部長。剛好利用今天這個總質詢的機會想請教一下有關我們部桃新屋分院擴建案的進度。我先讓院長和部長瞭解一下相關的時間軸，在108年12月3日，蔡英文總統到部桃新屋分院的時候就有講：新屋分院擴建案已經核准，馬上就要進行，完工以後可讓地方民眾就醫、健康檢查更方便。所以在108年的時候蔡總統宣布這個好消息，說中央政府也全力支持部桃醫院，民眾也抱有很大的期待。後來在109年的時候，我們也知道當時衛福部的石崇良次長也說自己的醫院責無旁貸，緊接著，我們現在的總統賴清德總統在112年4月13日，也是當時總統提名的第二天，他也到部桃新屋分院，他也非常關心我們偏鄉醫療，也說關懷到院復健的長者，將持續給予部桃新屋分院更多的協助，興建第二醫療大樓，提供新屋、觀音沿海居民更多醫療的服務。當時蔡總統去到部桃新屋分院，那時候距離大選大概三十幾天，而賴清德總統是在總統提名後第二天也到部桃新屋分院，我們也非常非常的期待，因為沿海的醫療資源非常匱乏，這部分也要先跟院長報告，藉由這次的機會，希望院長跟部長針對我們桃園南區，尤其沿海，醫療匱乏資源的問題，希望能夠多幫我們爭取醫療資源。針對部桃新屋分院這部分，部長，現在進度到底到哪裡？從108年說已經開始進行，現在到底進行到哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長報告新的進度。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。那也感謝委員，在前幾個禮拜去考察的時候，委員也特別親自一起來關心我們新屋這一邊，尤其是桃園海邊這一邊醫療資源的興建，因為桃園醫院本來就有一直在修改一些計畫，這中間剛好承攬的廠商建築師在112年11月26日身故，所以我們變成重新再依照工程會的函，我們再重新函復，在113年7月2日函復重新辦理規劃招標作業，已於113年6月12日決標，現在正在研擬計畫書，我想預計……"],["涂委員權吉：現在正在研擬計畫書？"],["邱部長泰源：預計113年8月底將計畫書送給本部審查通過，我們會提報行政院來審核。"],["涂委員權吉：好，其實這個問題，那時候我們跟部長也去考察，相信部長對這部分很瞭解，今天藉由總質詢提出，就是希望我們卓院長能夠多幫忙，因為我們希望政策是有延續性的。從108年蔡總統就宣布這擴建案已經核准、已經進行，到現在已經四、五年的時間，其實據我們瞭解，還是只有取得土地，中間剛剛部長講了那麼多，其實最後還是打回原形，還是只有取得土地，所以我希望藉由今天提出，對於我們桃園南區的沿海醫療資源，當然部桃新屋分院是一個指標性，希望我們卓院長跟邱部長針對部桃新屋分院的擴建，主要就是為我們沿海醫療資源匱乏的問題，能夠儘量幫我們提升。"],["卓院長榮泰：希望今年8月的時候，部桃能夠提出它的計畫出來，會提到衛福部，我就請衛福部能夠審慎地審查，我們依照程序來進行……"],["涂委員權吉：希望院長、部長為我們沿海醫療資源，多幫我們來爭取。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["涂委員權吉：接下來這部分可能要請環境部的彭部長，邱部長可以先請休息。","彭部長，針對上個月底，我看環境部提出了一個新的草案，就是要把空污排放標準加嚴管制，還有加強料源管理並比照國際ISO，還有SRF營運體檢輔導團等等，環境部針對SRF管理的修法三大草案跟大致的方向，你看一下，這個是我們提出三大草案的三大方向嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：好，針對這部分，其實部長也知道現在SRF為什麼大家會這麼注意，就是因為我們桃園有三家SRF垃圾發電廠的進駐，我想請問一下，民眾都說SRF根本就是垃圾焚化爐發電廠，部長對這部分有什麼看法？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，SRF是一種再生能源，但是它不等於綠電，也不等於綠能，所以這是非常清楚的，過去其實桃園有非常多家SRF的製造廠，我真的去看過，上任之後第二個禮拜就去看了，也看出這個問題，所以我們才很快地就有一個輔導團成立。我們也預先設置一個草案，也報告委員，因為這個問題還滿大的，所以我很勇於接受這個挑戰。","我們9月全臺灣49家製造商，還有17家使用SRF的工廠，我們全部會有一個體檢報告，會把這種指引提升為管理辦法。"],["涂委員權吉：其實這一部分在委員會的時候，我也跟部長提出過質詢，其實我們對彭部長的期望也很高，看到我們彭部長在接受媒體訪問，6月6號的時候你也有講，從幫助減碳的角度，SRF不應該被污名化，我們也同意希望SRF這個標準能夠提高，所以我們對部長也有很高的期望。而且說實在的，據我們瞭解，我們那時候也知道，原來我們部長也是觀音出身。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["涂委員權吉：也算是我們觀音人。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["涂委員權吉：我希望部長有空來觀音走一走，因為觀音的鄉親對這個空污真的是忍無可忍，我們希望部長有空來觀音走走，SRF不要來。"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題。報告委員，其實桃園的問題，因為它現在已經進入……整個桃科已經有環評通過了，所以基本上，它的管理還是在桃園市政府，因為它的一個總量管制，所以這個還是要桃園市政府來決定。我們目前處理的是49家生產、製造，包含很多在桃園，還有這個在使用的，未來如果他們開始營運，我們一樣的標準會同樣地列管。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，那我們先來討論一下，就是我們新三法草案跟現行規範的比較。我們看一下「重金屬空氣污染物（鉛、汞、鎘）排放標準」，這是我們新草案的排放標準，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯、對。"],["涂委員權吉：這是新草案的排放標準。看一下我們現行草案的標準，我們來比較看一下。部長，這兩個標準好像是一模一樣的。"],["彭部長啓明：我們其實還有別的標準，包含戴奧辛，我們完全是比照歐盟的標準。"],["涂委員權吉：戴奧辛的我們再討論，所以看起來鉛、汞、鎘3個重金屬，我們查過，就是照搬廢棄物、焚化爐、空氣污染物的排放標準，其實是一模一樣。","接下來我們來看，因為部長剛剛有講還有戴奧辛的部分，其實這跟剛剛是一樣的，也是直接挪用中小型廢棄物焚化爐戴奧辛管制及排放標準。部長，你有沒有發現其實也是一樣的？"],["彭部長啓明：對，因為我們目前使用的這個，很多的鍋爐工廠並沒有這麼嚴格的標準，所以我們全面提升到至少焚化爐的標準，比照歐盟。"],["涂委員權吉：剛剛前面我聽部長講，其實對SRF，如果稱為垃圾焚化爐，部長應該也不是很認同。"],["彭部長啓明：對，其實它如果有些是白料，像我在桃園看到有的是白料的、認真的，那就是OK，但是如果有些真的是垃圾去壓的那就是問題。"],["涂委員權吉：好，可是我們看一下，從3項重金屬的排放標準（鉛、汞、鎘），還有我們剛剛講的，你說戴奧辛，戴奧辛的排放標準也是比照垃圾焚化爐，所以主要的兩項標準，就是我們垃圾焚化爐的標準，我們部長說要空污管理加嚴，我看你新修的法也是照搬，也就是跟之前的一模一樣啊！"],["彭部長啓明：過去……"],["涂委員權吉：我看不到加嚴的地方啊！"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，其實過去的法令完全是更鬆的，我們現在是把使用SRF的比照焚化爐的標準。"],["涂委員權吉：不是，所以我的意思是說，這個SRF你就是拿垃圾焚化爐的標準來做啊！所以我們說SRF就是垃圾焚化爐，目前看起來就是啊！沒有錯啊！"],["彭部長啓明：就是至少以這個標準，但是過去是完全沒有特別的標準，過去是更鬆的。"],["涂委員權吉：我們針對SRF……那時候你接受訪問，你說要更嚴格，說實在，我們看到新修的草案，根本就是搬舊的來使用，也就是跟現行的規範一模一樣，所以我們也看過有好幾家SRF的電廠，它訂的標準都比我們環境部訂的標準還嚴格，所以我覺得部長是不是針對這一部分，我們要好好針對這個草案再來研議一下？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，這個只是草案，還有討論的空間，主要是等9月我們的那個體檢報告完整出來之後，也歡迎委員逐一地來檢視。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我就是希望，這是草案，希望提醒部長，這個草案跟之前是一模一樣，所以完全沒有改啊！既然是草案，希望在還能改，還能加嚴的時候，請部長就這部分一定要注意，我怕你沒有注意到。你看這兩樣重金屬跟戴奧辛，最主要戴奧辛及重金屬這兩樣根本就是搬舊法完全照抄使用！然後針對貴部3月份修正的事業廢棄物清理計畫審查第七次的修正版，我們看可作為SRF原料的廢棄物當中，這一部分有進步，刪除了污泥類，但是我要跟部長報告，最主要的部分，塑膠、橡膠，也就是會產生世紀之毒戴奧辛的，完全還是在裡面，針對我們大家最擔心影響空污最嚴重的戴奧辛，我們看到還是沒有改善啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，如果鍋爐的溫度夠高，戴奧辛的這個問題就可以解決，所以其實我們還是要嚴格，逐一的看每一個鍋爐的溫度，還有它使用的料材有多少，我們基本上是先用焚化爐的標準來處理SRF的使用廠，但是未來等到9月份體檢報告出來了之後，如果我們發現混料的還是產生的話，會明顯的加嚴。"],["涂委員權吉：好，部長，你講的溫度就是熱值，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["涂委員權吉：好。我們來看下一步，針對我們現在新草案有關SRF的規範，請問一下，我們是根據國際哪個標準來訂定的？"],["彭部長啓明：歐盟，我們就是比照歐盟的標準。"],["涂委員權吉：歐盟的是EN 15359，還是ISO 21640，你是用哪一個標準？"],["彭部長啓明：應該是左邊的21640……"],["涂委員權吉：21640嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["涂委員權吉：好，21640算是現在我們最新的標準，部長，但是請你看一下，你剛剛有講，我們以相同的淨熱值大於等於2392來做比較，你看國際的標準，氯的含量小於1.5，汞的含量小於0.1，但是我們的新草案（SRF-2），其實這就是我們現在一般的標準，氯的含量是小於等於3，汞的含量是小於等於0.15，雖然我們一直講要訂定嚴格的標準，但是我們以相同的淨熱值做比較，而且你說是用國際相同的標準ISO21640，你看我們的標準還是寬鬆非常非常多啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個只是草案，我們還有討論的時間，因為它只是在預告期，我們也會遵照委員的建議，如果9月出來的時候，我們也會把這個意見採納進來。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！我就是說因為是草案，所以我一定要現在講，等到你標準訂定的時候，我怕為時已晚。還有針對SRF，其實我看我們比較有改變的地方就是針對分級制度，我們當初舊的規範是四級，後來我們分成兩級，我們新的草案就是把標準四級的部分分成兩級，其中有一個是SRF-1，SRF-1這個標準訂得很高，可是我查過，我瞭解，目前我們沒有一個SRF的發電廠能夠達到SRF-1，所以我們這樣子的設計會要求使用較低階的SRF-2限期改善成為SRF-1嗎？不然為什麼訂定兩套標準？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實要等到9月我們那個體檢報告出來，因為現在我們逐一看全臺灣49家的製造廠，還有使用廠，等到這個完整之後，我們再來跟委員討論這個問題，可以嗎？"],["涂委員權吉：好，我現在是看到草案，我就是希望凸顯我們現在針對這個草案所發現的問題……"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：我也要拜託院長，針對這個部分，幫我們好好的監督，因為現在民眾最擔心的真的就是健康、空污的問題，請院長、部長為民眾的健康嚴格把關，改善我們日益嚴重的空污問題，我們不要用肺發電，我們要健康，不要回饋金！請院長、部長為我們民眾的健康把關，謝謝！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，本會期本院委員對行政院卓院長提出施政方針報告之質詢自5月31日起，經過6次院會10個會議日質詢，已於今日詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長及各部會首長列席答詢。在質詢結束前，再請卓院長講幾句話。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1136601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.113468750000003,"end":16.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.602218750000002,"end":19.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.81159375,"end":26.828468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.828468750000003,"end":27.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.262843750000002,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.566593750000003,"end":31.671593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.90784375,"end":35.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.16471875,"end":37.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.18534375,"end":40.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.12159375,"end":46.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.42034375,"end":47.534093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.65221875,"end":62.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.35034375,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.57534375,"end":87.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.74721875,"end":90.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.93659375,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.36221875000001,"end":109.73534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.05596875,"end":120.07971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.53534375000001,"end":131.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.33534375000002,"end":132.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.53346875,"end":159.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.00596875000002,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.79846875,"end":164.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.84909375,"end":164.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.95034375,"end":166.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.11471875,"end":169.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.70909375000002,"end":175.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.91909375,"end":179.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.32346875000002,"end":183.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.98534375,"end":184.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.82909375,"end":185.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.28034375000001,"end":189.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.54971875,"end":191.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.08534375000002,"end":192.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.48596875,"end":202.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.53096875,"end":205.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.04096875000002,"end":208.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.04471875000002,"end":209.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.37784375,"end":215.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.46971875000003,"end":218.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.33846875,"end":225.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.64534375000002,"end":227.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.13034375,"end":237.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.21471875,"end":230.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.67346875,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.55034375000002,"end":240.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.46659375,"end":292.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.37346875000003,"end":300.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.64284375,"end":297.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.92096875000004,"end":308.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.18096875000003,"end":311.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.19659375000003,"end":317.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.83784375000005,"end":343.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.39909375,"end":347.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.85846875000004,"end":348.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.28034375000004,"end":369.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.06596875,"end":409.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.45221875000004,"end":419.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.61096875000004,"end":454.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.16034375000004,"end":441.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.21909375,"end":443.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.37096875000003,"end":443.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.52534375000005,"end":479.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.81784375,"end":472.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.28096875000006,"end":490.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.85721875,"end":506.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.06159375000004,"end":508.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.13284375,"end":514.3134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.3134687500001,"end":548.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.39784375,"end":514.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52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64,"text":"也看出這個問題所以我們才很快的就有一個輔導團成立那我們也預先設置一個草案也報告委員因為這個問題還蠻大的所以我很勇於的接受這個挑戰我們9月份整個全台灣49家還有49家製造商還有17家的使用SRF的工廠我們全部會有一個體檢報告我們會把這種指引提升為管理辦法"},{"start":409.502,"end":423.869,"text":"好其實這部分在委員會的時候我也跟部長有提出過質詢那其實我們對彭部長的期望也很高也看我們彭部長在接受媒體訪問的時候在6月6號的時候你也有講"},{"start":425.69,"end":454.128,"text":"從幫助檢探的角度SRF不應該被污名化所以我們也同意希望SRF這個標準能夠提高所以對部長我們也有很高的期望而且說實在據我們了解我那時候也知道原來我們部長也是觀音出身也算是我們觀音人我希望部長有空來觀音走一走因為觀音的鄉親對這個空窩真的是忍無可忍我們希望部長有空來觀音走走SRF不要來"},{"start":454.728,"end":478.981,"text":"沒問題其實報告委員其實桃園的問題因為他現在已經進入他的整個桃科已經有環評通過了所以基本上他的這個管理還是在桃園市政府因為他的一個總量管制所以這個還是要桃園市政府來決定啦那我們目前處理的是49家生產製造的包含很多在桃園那還有這個在使用的那未來如果他們開始營運我們一樣的標準會同樣的列管"},{"start":479.332,"end":508.18,"text":"好部長那我們先來討論一下就是我們新三法草案跟現行規範的比較齁我們看一下我們重金屬空氣污染物鉛、鋼、鎘這排放的標準這是我們新草案的排放標準嘛對不對沒錯對好這是新草案排放標準那看一下我們現在現行的現行草案的標準來比較看一下部長你看一下這個好像兩個標準是一模一樣"},{"start":509.638,"end":526.406,"text":"這個是我們其實還有別的標準,包含戴奧辛,我們是完全是比照歐盟的標準。那戴奧辛我們在討論。所以看起來千鞏葛三個重金屬,其實我們查過就是照搬廢棄物、焚化爐、空氣污染物的排放標準,其實是一模一樣。"},{"start":527.466,"end":547.677,"text":"好那接下來我們來看因為部長剛剛有講還有代號心的部分好我們來看一下我們下一個我們代號心我們代號心的部分我們也來看齁其實跟剛剛是一樣齁也是直接磨用中巧型廢棄物氛化毒代號心管制及排放標準部長你有沒有發現其實也是一樣"},{"start":548.538,"end":562.475,"text":"對其實這個因為我們目前使用的這個很多的鍋爐工廠並沒有這麼嚴格的標準所以我們全面提升到至少焚化爐的標準照歐盟所以其實剛剛前面我聽部長講其實部長對SRF如果講稱為垃圾焚化爐部長應該也不是很認同"},{"start":567.881,"end":588.273,"text":"對,其實他如果有些是白料,像我在桃園看到有的是白料的,認真的,那就是OK,但是有些真的是垃圾去壓的,那就有問題。可是我們看一下我們從重金屬,三項重金屬的排放標準,鉛、鋼、鎘,還有我們剛剛講,你說代耀鋅,代耀鋅的排放標準也是比照垃圾焚化毒,所以他這個"},{"start":589.133,"end":590.234,"text":"所以我的意思是說"},{"start":614.514,"end":629.311,"text":"這SRF你就是拿垃圾焚化爐的標準來做啊所以我們說SRF就是垃圾焚化爐目前看起來就是啊沒有錯啊就是至少以這個標準但是過去是完全沒有特別的標準過去是更鬆的"},{"start":629.551,"end":644.137,"text":"我希望部長我們針對SRF那時候你接受訪問你說要更嚴格說實在我們看到我們新修的草案根本就是搬舊的來使用也就是跟現行的規範是一模一樣那所以我們也看過"},{"start":645.197,"end":666.637,"text":"有好幾家其實SRF的電廠他訂的標準都比我們環境部訂的標準還嚴格所以我覺得部長處針對這部分我們要好好針對這個草案再來研議一下好謝謝委員這個是草案那還有討論的空間那主要我們等9月我們的那個體檢報告完整出來之後也歡迎委員逐一的來檢視"},{"start":667.458,"end":684.879,"text":"所以我就是希望就是草案希望提醒部長這個草案跟之前是一模一樣所以完全沒有改啊所以居然是草案希望在還能改還能加嚴的時候請部長喔這部分一定要注意我怕你沒有注意到你看這兩樣重金屬跟我們"},{"start":685.74,"end":706.592,"text":"﹗大躍興﹗最主要大躍興跟重金屬這兩樣根本就是搬舊法完全來照抄使用。然後針對我們貴部3月份修正的事業廢棄物清理計畫審查第7次的修正版我們看作為SRF原料的廢棄物當中有啦這一部分有進步了刪除了污泥類"},{"start":707.392,"end":726.682,"text":"但是我要跟部長報告喔,最主要的部分我們的塑膠、橡膠也就是會產生四季之毒的黛奧辛完全還是在裡面。那針對我們大家最擔心空污最影響最嚴重的黛奧辛我們看到還是沒有改善啊。"},{"start":727.868,"end":755.158,"text":"報告委員其實如果說他的鍋爐的溫度夠高他戴奧星的這個問題就可以解決所以其實我們還是要嚴格逐一的看每一個鍋爐他的溫度還有他使用的料材有多少所以基本上我們是基本上先用這個焚化爐的標準來處理這個SRF的使用場但是未來我覺得我們在等到9月份體檢報告出來了之後如果我們發現還是有混料還是產生的話會明顯的加嚴"},{"start":755.738,"end":765.427,"text":"部長你講的溫度就是熱值嘛對不對?好那我們來看下一步齁我們針對我們現在新草案有關SRF的規範齁我請問一下我們是根據國際哪個標準來訂定的?歐盟"},{"start":768.922,"end":770.223,"text":"我們部長請你看一下你剛剛有講"},{"start":788.699,"end":811.148,"text":"那我們就是相同的進熱值就是大於等於2392我們來做比較你看國際的標準綠的含量小於1.5、拱的含量小於0.1但是我們新草案SRF2其實這就是我們一般現在的標準綠含量是大於等於3、拱的含量是大於等於0.15"},{"start":812.529,"end":825.169,"text":"所以我們一直講說要訂立嚴格的標準你看以我們相同的熱值而且你以國際相同的標準ISO21640你看我們的標準還是寬鬆非常非常多阿"},{"start":825.869,"end":849.604,"text":"報告委員這個只是草案我們還有討論的時間因為它只是一個預告期那我們也會遵照委員的建議我們如果9月出來的時候我們也會把這個意見把它採納進來對啊所以所以我就說因為是草案所以我一定要現在講你等到標準定定的時候我怕為時已晚還有我們針對我們針對我們SRF其實我看我們比較有改變的地方就是"},{"start":849.804,"end":870.555,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":870.615,"end":885.996,"text":"目前我們沒有一個SRF的發電廠能夠達到SRF1所以我們這樣子的設計我們會要求使用較低階SRF2限期改善成為SRF1嗎?不然為什麼訂定兩套標準?"},{"start":886.701,"end":904.906,"text":"報告委員這個其實等到9月我們那個體檢報告因為現在我們逐一的全台灣49家一家一家的製造廠還有使用廠我們一家一家看等到我們這個完整之後我們再來讓跟委員再討論這個問題可以嗎好所以我現在是看到草案我就是希望凸顯我們現在針對這草案所發現的問題"},{"start":908.487,"end":908.627,"text":"好,謝謝委員。"},{"start":938.086,"end":944.097,"text":"好,謝謝涂委員,謝謝卓院長。發言會本會期本院委員"}]}},{"id":"154588","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154588","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb6185ad599ff5aea37eca09fb1100d58f4be2199544e32500e6bd3df1470de2396d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"16:17:50 - 16:33:30","影片長度":"00:15:40","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T16:17:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T16:33:30+08:00","duration":940,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":378,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（16時17分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員若華：院長午安。首先先來請問院長一個問題，院長，請問您知道算至今年2月，我國全臺縣市人口成長率排名第一的是哪個縣市嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：全國縣市人口？"],["邱委員若華：人口成長率。"],["卓院長榮泰：就我所知，桃園是增加很快的。"],["邱委員若華：沒錯，第一名就是我們桃園市。根據內政部最新的人口統計，全臺縣市人口成長率排名第一的就是我們桃園市，年增率達1.32%，1年內增加了約3萬人。桃園市近一年的人口成長幅度最多的行政區依序來看，首先是龜山區，年漲幅3.03%；第二名是桃園觀音區，年漲幅1.9%；第三名則是桃園區，年漲幅1.52%。院長，請問這樣人口爆炸性的成長，是我們10年前能預見的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該不是，所以我們一些公共設施跟相關配備要補得上來、趕得上來。"],["邱委員若華：對啊，要跟著提升嘛。就是因為2014年桃園升格為直轄市之後，社會福利變多了，重大的公共建設也變多，產業進駐，就業機會多，增加了許多人口移入。但是我們來瞭解一下桃園的醫療分布，我們可以看到南桃園有天成醫療體系，還有聯新國際醫院，還有衛生福利部的桃園醫院，可以說是醫療資源相當豐富。但是院長，桃園人口成長最多的地方是龜山區、觀音區，還有桃園區，這些都是北桃園，而我們的醫療區域已經十多年沒有做調整了，桃園市2010年是200萬人，到目前最新統計已經達232萬人，成長了32萬人是什麼樣一個概念？就是直逼一個基隆市的人口，反觀基隆市人口持續外流，從38萬人已經萎縮到36萬人，結果我們現在住在北桃園的民眾如果生病有就醫需求的話，他們可能會到臺北，要去跟臺北人爭林口長庚醫院或是新北的恩主公醫院，雖然一直在討論我們八德要增設次醫療區，立意良好，請問院長，這樣一共會增加多少床位？我們是否來建議我們每五年就重新檢視並做醫療區域的劃分？"],["卓院長榮泰：八德區人口迅速的增加，所以我們將規劃桃園市次醫療區從2個變成3個，也增加了八德次醫療區這樣新的規劃，請衛福部報告我們有新的、進一步規劃的計畫。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員關心桃園的醫療資源分布，的確八德地區人口已經達20萬，因此我們已經把桃園市的次醫療區由2區變成3區，新增加了八德次醫療區，床數的部分我們會再來精算，目前……"],["邱委員若華：本席在這邊要告訴部長，如果從2處的次醫療區域調整為3個，這個範圍包括八德、大溪、復興、平鎮、龍潭，床數可以增加1,528床，每萬人不得超過50張的急性、慢性一般病床，院長，關於我們八德次醫療區這件事分為兩個層次，第一個是八德以及鄰近的人口，我們看到增加如此快速，是否還適用我們的次醫療區？這是第一個問題。另外，近來桃園整個人口都在提升，北桃園其實是相對非常缺乏醫療資源，是否我們北桃園人需要自己的區域醫院呢？請院長、部長說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果用均衡臺灣的理念來看，各地的各項公共設施的配比，應該要讓它合理均勻化，但是也考慮到地方的配合，很多的包括土地、包括人力、包括經費，這個都要一併考慮在內，衛福部應該會有詳實的計畫。"],["邱部長泰源：我可不可以跟委員報告一下？我們在109年2月12號已經許可八德長榮醫院的設立，這個是在八德區，病床的規模是急性一般病床150床，這個部分已經核可；在111年5月，原則同意清華大學新設立桃園附設醫院，這個是在大園，病床規模為急性一般病床200床以及精神病床達30床。另外，桃園市政府好像也有意要設置市立醫院，一般病床也達到100床，這個也可以由桃園市政府向衛福部提出申請。"],["邱委員若華：部長，其實將2個區域劃為3個一直是我們桃園市政府提出的，而八德，您有提到八德要增設醫院，那都還沒有興建中，所以八德、大溪的民眾他們都必須到新北市鄰近的醫院來就醫，剛才有講到我們桃園市政府衛生局，根據衛生局統計，急性一般病床是7,919床，桃園次區域是5,253床，中壢的次區域是2,666床，平均每萬人口是35床，雖然衛福部醫審會另外通過1,894床的急性一般病床，但這些都還是本席剛才說到籌建中的醫院，比如說像聖保祿醫院，還有我們的國軍桃園總醫院增設的病床，長遠看下來，我們地方真的很需要醫療資源重新合理來分配，最重要的是要重新劃分次醫療區。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我想劃分次醫療區的區域，就是希望能夠把資源分配讓民眾的醫療可近性能夠增加，而且能夠由各個醫院，整個由各級，從比較大的醫院到小的醫院，到基層醫療診所……"],["邱委員若華：部長，那桃園何時可以來做劃分？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們已經先公布將會多設一個區，我們會去瞭解到整個要興建的，或者是已經通過的，整個來做一個檢討，我想我們這個部分檢討以後，我們再跟委員報告，我們共同來思考怎麼樣來充實這裡的醫療資源。"],["邱委員若華：同時，院長，可否請您回去就上開問題偕同桃園市政府，還有衛福部等相關單位共同討論符合桃園發展的對策，因為不能每一次政策都在邊緣性做修改。隨著我們人口高齡化，對於醫療的需求會更加深，桃園現在的情況也不是當初規劃次醫療區的情況，我們為什麼不一剛開始就把這個事情做到位，給我們桃園一個安身立命的好環境？可否請院長回去就本席提出的問題，像是重新劃設次醫療區，還有給八德人一個區域型的醫院來做討論，可以在兩個月內開會完畢嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長已經承諾會跟委員，包括跟桃園市政府就實際需要進一步再去協商，大家能夠討論出一個最可行，而且是好的方法。"],["邱委員若華：兩個月內……"],["卓院長榮泰：馬上就進行。"],["邱委員若華：馬上就進行，好，謝謝，謝謝院長，再請提供本席書面資料。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會儘快進行。"],["邱委員若華：接下來我們看到弱勢兒童，還有青少年、弱勢兒少療育補助，院長，您知道早期療育和復健之間的分水嶺在哪嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["邱委員若華：6歲之前叫早期療育，6歲之後叫做復健。院長、部長，根據衛福部統計，臺灣的早期療育服務個案通報人數，我們從2011年起來看是逐步緩升，平均每年增加7%，2019年在疫情爆發之前，通報人數已經超過2萬5,000人了，2020還有2021因為受到新冠疫情的影響，沒有明顯的波動，疫情解封之後，我們看到2022通報人數大幅上升，2023年通報的人數高達3萬4,781人，創下歷史的新高，跟疫情之前相比成長逾3成。","我們桃園對於早療已經做了很多努力，像是跟家長加強宣導早期療育的重要性，但是院長，我現在想跟您探討的是關於弱勢青少年，還有早期療育延續性的問題。當孩子超過6歲之後就會進入教育部的特教資源系統，但很多孩子雖然年紀已經超過6歲，他們還是有繼續復健的必要性，請問院長，你有注意過這個問題嗎？部長、院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們曾經接觸過很多早療的單位，包括在臺南各地，都有對這些早期發展比較遲緩的或是需要照顧的小孩子，做了很多學前的輔導工作。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝院長有關心到這個問題。我們這邊要來討論的是，針對特殊境遇的家庭，如果他們碰上有持續需要早療或是復健的孩子，家庭的負擔是非常沉重的，相信院長和部長都知道，也許執政者會說，如果他們有身心障礙手冊的話，他們可以來申請復康巴士，或是學校有特教資源，但是對於慢飛的孩子，他們從學校回到家之後，家長本身並沒有特教的專業，他們也不是職能治療師，他們沒有辦法自己來做教育跟訓練，只能送去醫療院所接受復健，對於弱勢家庭來說，不論是車馬費還是自費的項目，都是很沉重的！如果我們在青少年他們有成長進步空間的時候可以持續訓練的話，拉他們一把，往後可以替政府省下更多成本。院長、部長，您認同嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，認同。而且我們除了早療的早期發現，我們現在的努力是早期發現，發現了進行早期治療以後，也連結到醫療機構，這個部分在量能方面，這幾年擴展得非常大，如果需要再怎麼改善，我們都願意把這些……因為這真的是很需要，不管是白天或者是下課以後，真的都很需要給他多一點照顧，他才能夠真的在社會上趕快恢復社會功能。"],["邱委員若華：因為我們現在看到針對弱勢家庭，還有特殊境遇家庭，本席有請教臺北市政府，他們有施行這個政策，一年需要增加多少預算，我們得到的答案是兩百多萬元，其實兩百多萬元並不算高，可是如果我們來支持他們，可以讓特殊境遇的慢飛兒家庭有希望，並給予他們最及時的幫助。院長，這樣的德政，我們是否可以全國統一施行？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請衛福部去瞭解一下，如果是這樣的經費可以幫助很多的人，那政府該投入的政府投資、社會投資是絕對值得的，我們往這個方向來做思考。"],["邱部長泰源：我們馬上來瞭解、來精進。"],["邱委員若華：是，再請部長回去做研究。","本席要說，對於資源比較集中的北臺灣都還需要這樣的補助，更何況是資源比較匱乏的其他偏鄉地區。這個制度一旦施行的話，可以有拋磚引玉的作用，其他的單位也可以陸續加入並且投入關注這樣的情況。","是否可請院長回去針對推動全國弱勢兒童還有少年醫療補助，讓6歲以上未滿18歲的弱勢兒少，也可以申請健保不給付、須自費發展遲緩療育的教育訓練費用？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不大瞭解這個……"],["邱部長泰源：可不可以請委員再……"],["邱委員若華：我們希望能夠推動弱勢兒童還有少年醫療補助，讓6歲以上未滿18歲的弱勢兒少，也可以申請健保不給付、須自費發展遲緩療育的教育訓練費用。"],["邱部長泰源：我想只要弱勢家庭需要幫忙，不管是在健保或者是在社福方面，應該都會給他最大的支持。"],["邱委員若華：希望衛福部這邊可以持續來做關注。"],["邱部長泰源：一定、一定。"],["邱委員若華：包括罕見疾病還有重大傷病的兒童。"],["邱部長泰源：對小孩子的照顧是我們的重中之重。"],["邱委員若華：OK，再拜託部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請衛福部研議這個方式。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝。","接下來是有關遠距離醫療一條龍看診和領藥。院長，我們桃園雖然整體來說給人家交通方便的印象，但是桃園其實也有交通不便利的偏鄉，部長，您知道是哪裡嗎？我們桃園的偏鄉。"],["邱部長泰源：桃園的偏鄉？"],["邱委員若華：對，您知道是哪裡嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：請委員指教。"],["邱委員若華：是我們桃園的復興區，就是以前的復興鄉。"],["邱部長泰源：喔，復興。"],["邱委員若華：我們桃園市政府為了減緩偏鄉孕媽咪看診的不方便，辦了一個叫做線上看診app的遠端服務。因為山區的交通相當不方便，目前也沒有婦產科的專科醫師執業，我們山區內的孕（產）婦不容易接受良好的孕（產）期醫療照護和衛教，請問院長，您認為這個政策如何？遠端照護app。"],["卓院長榮泰：遠距醫療行為對偏鄉、原住民或是山區的地方都有它的實際需要，我們要增加它很多的相關設備，包括通訊的條件。"],["邱委員若華：我看了一下我們的全民健康保險遠距醫療給付計畫，專科門診遠距會診有以下7科：眼科、耳鼻喉科、皮膚科、心臟內科、胃腸科、神經內科、胸腔科，缺乏婦產科。院長，既然少子化是國安危機，為什麼沒有納入婦產科？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個可以讓衛福部研議，馬上當做一個檢討的方式把它納入。"],["邱部長泰源：因為桃園這個是有做IDS計畫還有遠距醫療的計畫，所以它應該是所有需要的都可以來做，如果其他的地方有需要加強科別的話，我想這個都是應該要做的。"],["邱委員若華：那再請部長納入。謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝主席、謝謝部長和院長。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱委員、謝謝院長。","下一位請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1136601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.29659375,"end":3.4397187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.4397187500000004,"end":4.7897187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.817843750000002,"end":13.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.83471875,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.762843750000002,"end":26.305343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.300968750000003,"end":28.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.70159375,"end":29.950343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.13596875,"end":30.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.16971875,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.86159375,"end":31.637843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.80659375,"end":33.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.64596875,"end":36.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.19409375,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.774718750000005,"end":51.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.00596875,"end":53.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.284093750000004,"end":54.689093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.515968750000006,"end":59.869718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.22409375,"end":61.742843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.67096875,"end":70.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.14221875,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.01471875,"end":78.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.60534375,"end":86.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.59971875000001,"end":93.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.55221875000001,"end":102.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.64784375,"end":128.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.88846875000002,"end":129.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.78284375,"end":134.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.16596875000002,"end":140.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.81909375,"end":141.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.66284375,"end":142.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.97909375,"end":162.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.89159375,"end":164.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.11909375000002,"end":174.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.77159375000002,"end":180.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.21034375000002,"end":175.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.27784375000002,"end":175.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.31159375000001,"end":175.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.77471875,"end":186.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.48284375,"end":187.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.51221875000002,"end":191.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.43971875000003,"end":204.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.79221875000002,"end":206.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.65284375000002,"end":206.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.25596875000002,"end":215.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.89596875,"end":217.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.54971875,"end":219.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.38471875000002,"end":235.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.82534375,"end":239.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.30159375000002,"end":243.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.12784375,"end":246.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.01346875000002,"end":250.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.01284375000003,"end":255.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.53534375,"end":257.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.17221875,"end":260.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.88471875,"end":265.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.20034375,"end":273.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.08534375,"end":273.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.11909375,"end":273.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.67596875000004,"end":276.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.12284375,"end":276.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.37596875,"end":276.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.49409375,"end":276.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.06784375,"end":296.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.19971875000005,"end":300.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.18659375000004,"end":303.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.91596875000005,"end":308.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.69159375000004,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.03659375,"end":325.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.66784375000003,"end":329.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.70096875,"end":364.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.68284375,"end":373.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","sta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們如果用均衡臺灣的理念來看各地的各項的公共設施的配比應該要讓它合理均勻化但是也考慮到地方的配合很多的包括土地啦包括人力啦包括經費這個都要一併考慮在內那應該會不會有詳細的詳實的計畫各位部委員報告一下我們在109年2月12號已經席可八德"},{"start":281.8,"end":307.933,"text":"長榮醫院的設立這個在八德區病床的規模大概一百急性一百急性一般病床一百五十床那這個部分已經合格那在一百一十一年五月原則同意清華大學新設立桃園護社醫院這個在大園病床規模為急性一般病床兩百床及精神病床達三十床另外桃園市政府好像也有意義要設置市立醫院"},{"start":308.752,"end":329.247,"text":"那一般病床也達到100床,這個也可以由臺灣市政府向衛福部提出申請。是,部長其實將兩個區域劃為三個一直是我們臺灣市政府提出的,那巴德您有提到巴德偵測醫院那都還沒有新建中,所以巴德大西的民眾他們都必須要到新北市鄰近的醫院來就醫。"},{"start":330.047,"end":339.133,"text":"剛才講到我們桃園市政府衛生局根據衛生局統計一般急性一般還有病床是7919床桃園次區域是5253床中壢的次區域是2666床平均每萬人口35床每萬人口是35床"},{"start":349.844,"end":373.04,"text":"那雖然衛福部醫生會另外通過1894床的急性一般病床但這些都還是本期剛才說到籌建中的醫院比如說像是聖保祿醫院還有我們的國軍桃園總醫院增設的病床長遠看下來我們地方真的很需要醫療資源重新的合理來分配那最重要的是要重新的劃分次醫療區"},{"start":374.764,"end":393.123,"text":"是的,我想花粉市醫療區的區域就是希望能夠把資源分配的讓民眾的可敬性醫療可敬性能夠增加而且能夠由各個醫院整個由各級從比較大的醫院到小的醫院到基層醫療聯合起來所以我想我們"},{"start":396.527,"end":398.428,"text":"同時院長可否請您回序就上開的問題接通我們桃園市政府還有衛芬"},{"start":423.627,"end":449.274,"text":"衛福部等相關的單位來共同討論符合桃園的發展推測。我們也不能每一次每一次政策都在邊緣性的來做修改嘛。那隨著我們人口也高齡化對於醫療的需求會更加深。桃園現在的情況也不是當初的規劃次醫療區的情況。我們為什麼不一剛開始呢就把這個事情做到為給我們桃園的一個安身利命的好環境。"},{"start":450.054,"end":459.979,"text":"那克伯琴院長回去就本席提出的問題像是重新劃設治療區然後還有給巴德倫一個區域型的醫院來就討論那可以在兩個月內開會完畢嗎?"},{"start":463.594,"end":490.169,"text":"剛剛部長已經承諾會跟委員、高巴化跟桃園市政府就實際需要進一步再去協商。那麼大家能夠討論出一個最可行而且是好的方法來。馬上就進行。謝謝院長。那再請提供本席資料。接下來我們看到弱勢兒童還有青少年、兒少弱勢的療癒補助。院長您知道早期療癒和復健之間的分水嶺在哪嗎?"},{"start":492.674,"end":508.703,"text":"早期療癒還有復健。六歲之前叫早期療癒,六歲之後叫做復健。那院長部長根據衛福部統計臺灣的早期療癒服務跟通報人數我們從2011年來看齊是逐步的緩"},{"start":510.043,"end":529.516,"text":"平均每年增加7%,2019年在疫情爆發之前通報人數已經超過25000人了。2020還有2021因為受到新冠疫情的影響沒有明顯的波動。疫情解封之後我們看到2022通報人數大幅的上升,2023年通報的人數高達34781人,創下歷史的新高。"},{"start":534.099,"end":563.163,"text":"跟疫情前之前相比成長了逾三成。那我們桃園對於早療已經做了很多努力,像是跟家長加強宣導早期療癒的重要性。但是院長我現在想跟您探討的是關於弱勢青少年還有早期療癒延續性的問題。當孩子超過6歲之後就會進入教育部的特教資源系統,但很多孩子雖然年紀已經超過6歲,他們還是有繼續復健的必要性。"},{"start":564.147,"end":582.146,"text":"那請問院長你有注意過這個問題嗎?我們曾經接觸過很多找療的單位,包括在台南各地,他們都有對這些早期發展比較遲緩的或是需要照顧的小孩子做了很多學前的一些輔導的工作。"},{"start":583.664,"end":603.211,"text":"謝謝,謝謝院長有關心到這個問題。那我們這邊要來討論的是,針對特殊境遇的家庭,如果他們,特殊境遇的家庭,如果他們碰上有持續需要找療或是復健的孩子,家庭的負擔是非常沉重的,相信院長和部長都知道。也許執政者會說,如果他們有身心障礙手冊的話,"},{"start":604.031,"end":621.379,"text":"他們可以來申請復康巴士或是學校有特教支援但是對於漫飛的孩子他們從學校回到家之後家長他們本身並不是有特教特教的或是他們不是沒有特教的專業他們也不是職能治療師他們沒有辦法自己來做教育"},{"start":622.625,"end":622.725,"text":"您認同嗎?"},{"start":645.867,"end":662.978,"text":"報告委員認同,而且我們除了早療的一個早期的發現,我們現在的努力是把早期發現,然後發現有一個早療的治療以後也連結到醫療的機構,那這個部分在量能方面這幾年擴展得非常的大。"},{"start":664.486,"end":666.168,"text":"因為我們現在看到針對弱勢家庭還有特殊境遇的家庭本席有請教臺北市政府"},{"start":687.208,"end":708.494,"text":"他們有施行這個政策一年需要增加多少預算我們得到的答案是兩百多萬元其實兩百多萬元其實這樣子並不算高可是如果我們來支持他們可以讓特殊監獄的曼菲爾家庭有希望並給予他們最及時的幫助院長這樣的德政我們是否可以全國統一的來施行"},{"start":709.437,"end":722.279,"text":"我請衛副經理了解一下如果是這樣的經費可以幫助很多的人那政府該投入的政府的投資社會投資是絕對值得的我們往這個方向來做思考我們馬上再來了解來精進來精進"},{"start":724.182,"end":747.009,"text":"是,那再請部長回去做研究。那本身要說對於我們資源比較集中的北部、北台灣都還需要這樣的補助。那更何況是資源較匱乏的其他偏鄉地區。那這個制度一旦施行的話,可以有拋磚引玉的作用。那其他的單位也可以陸續的加入了,並且投入關注這樣的情況。"},{"start":748.933,"end":749.313,"text":"可否請委員在"},{"start":772.718,"end":796.606,"text":"我們希望能夠推動弱勢兒童還有少年醫療補助,讓6歲以上未滿18歲的弱勢兒少也可以申請健保不給付需自費發展, 遲緩療癒的教育訓練費用。我想只要弱勢家庭需要幫忙的,不管是在健保或者是在社福方面,應該都會給他最大的支持。"},{"start":797.791,"end":824.818,"text":"那希望衛福部這邊可以持續來做關注,那包括罕見疾病還有重大傷病的兒童。我們這小孩子的照顧是我們非常重中之重。請衛福研議這個方式。好,謝謝。那我們接下來看遠距離醫療一條龍看診還有領藥。院長我們桃園雖然整體來說給人家交通方便,整體來說交通方便的印象,但是桃園其實有交通不便利的偏鄉。部長您知道是哪裡嗎?"},{"start":828.086,"end":839.651,"text":"我們桃園市政府為了減緩偏鄉育媽咪看診的不方便辦了一個叫做線上看診APP的遠端服務那因為山區的交通相當的不方便目前也沒有復產"},{"start":854.497,"end":855.538,"text":"請問院長您認為這個政策如何?"},{"start":870.757,"end":887.255,"text":"遠距的醫療,遠距的醫療行為對偏鄉、原住民或是一個山區的這個地方都有它的實際需要。那我們要增加它很多的相關的設備,包括這個通訊的這個條件。那我看了一下我們全民健康保險遠距醫療幾戶計畫專門科"},{"start":890.239,"end":890.419,"text":"這個可以"},{"start":907.062,"end":907.322,"text":"謝謝邱委員。謝謝院長。"},{"start":936.569,"end":937.554,"text":"下一位請圖全級委員"}]}},{"id":"154587","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154587","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb618af0941e40c330665a09fb1100d58f4be2199544e32500e6b0f8b18e26c9fd1175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"15:51:05 - 16:07:17","影片長度":"00:16:12","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T15:51:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T16:07:17+08:00","duration":972,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":323,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（15時51分）謝謝副院長。各位、大家午安，是不是還是請我們卓院長？"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：院長午安。勞動節放假不同步的困擾對於同一機關裡面多種身分、多種制度來講，其實不只是社會很困擾，機關內你們行政部門也有很多的困擾。今年年初，在內閣還沒有改組以前，其實行政部門也有在討論五一勞動節是不是要研議全國統一放假？我們的前院長陳建仁院長表達他支持，所以從行政院到人事行政總處，到教育等各機關都說等跨部會研議，明年有機會全國都統一放假。老實說，大家覺得好像釋放出一個善意了，社會也都在期待，大家也可以理解今年一定是不可能也來不及，大家想明年有機會的話應該可以放假齊一，就是同步放假，不管是公務部門或者是民間的整個經濟部門通通都統一放假；但是人事行政總處剛公布了明年度休假假期表出來，五一勞動節仍然維持原案，只有適用勞基法的勞工有權利放假和出勤請求加班費，其實很多人都很失望。","我們在這裡要跟院長請示，你知道臺灣最重要、民間壓力最大的大概就是生產部門，可是生產部門五一勞動節本來就放假，所以像金融機關、工業生產的各個部門，他們都同意休假，也都很多人放假，尤其金融單位都放假了。我們在這裡講再剩下的除了不適用勞基法的以外，人數最多就是公務機關的公務員，而且最可憐的、最難受的莫過於育兒階段的老師，自己沒有辦法顧自己的小孩，還要到學校去上課，然後顧大家的小孩。沒有適用勞基法的人，還必須要上班，然後請人去照顧自己的小孩，或者是自行請假，這種狀況真的是很多困擾。院長，有沒有機會讓我們可以期待明年（2025年）休假齊一，五一勞動節全國都來放假？"],["卓院長榮泰：要請委員能夠理解，在6月底的時候，人事總處有送來相關的報告跟內容，我們也在那之前跟其他的幾個部會也做了一些意見上的溝通，最後我是決定今年還是維持現狀。"],["林委員淑芬：明年還是今年？"],["卓院長榮泰：今年公布，就是公布明年的行事曆，所以明年還是維持……"],["林委員淑芬：所執的理由是什麼？陳建仁前院長在這裡……本來大家就已經在期待，他支持了……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，跟委員報告，我承認還有很多的溝通還沒有辦法完全進行到大家共識……"],["林委員淑芬：最大的困擾是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：各方面的意見都有，表示這樣的放假會不會帶動其他個別身分類別的討論，我們覺得這個有必要再從長……"],["林委員淑芬：800萬、1,000萬適用勞基法的勞工都放假了……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我承認我們在……"],["林委員淑芬：幾乎只剩下公務員。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我承認我們在尋求共識的過程當中，今年還沒有這麼順利，但我們會繼續跟大家探索最好的模式是怎麼樣，未來我們再從長計議。"],["林委員淑芬：如果是這樣的話，其實你們行政部門有回復給我們，他們說因為以前立法院24年前做過一個決議，機關的放假日不能夠再更多了。我認為這不是理由，立法院的決議從來就沒有這麼有效力過，其實真正的原因是成本，但是你都願意給軍公教加薪了，我們也請院長解決勞動節全國放假不一致的問題，至少在這裡先承諾我們，你們多久以內會召集跨部會研議？據我們所知，行政部門陳建仁前院長雖然支持這樣的方向，但是從來沒有開過跨部會研議的會議，我們是不是能夠請卓院長有魄力、大刀闊斧地瞭解或請內政部跟勞動部一起開會討論，行政院召集相關單位共同協商，朝全國放假一致的方向去研議，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，針對這幾個重要的部會，雖然我們沒有召集會議的形式，但個別的詢問、徵詢都是有的，得出來的結果是大家意見還沒有辦法趨於一致，甚至包括外界也是這個樣子，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：就剩下公務機關而已，沒有外界啊！經濟部門、產業部門都放假了。"],["卓院長榮泰：會產生很多其他的效果，明年的行事曆今年已經公布了，明年我們還是依照現狀來處理，我們在適當的時間當中，如果有必要會再用剛剛委員建議的方式來徵詢更多的意見……"],["林委員淑芬：是不是請院長再一次召開真正的跨部會會議去研議一下，這樣子可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：適當的時間再跟委員報告，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：這個是很重要的……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：事實上我們都知道，現在只剩下公務機關的人數是最多的，其他全國都放假，可是一個機關不同調，一個社會也不同調，真的有很多很多的困擾，也不差這一天，何必跟公務員計較？","另外，接下來要跟院長討論的是SRF的問題，有關SRF，大家討論都是桃園這個個案的爭議……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員淑芬：但我沒有要談桃園這個個案的爭議，我其實要談的是制度面的問題。部長，我們都知道環境部已經啟動了SRF的營運體檢輔導團，要針對各廠進行體檢，就原料製造端和使用端上都要體檢、要一起做，你們也提出了幾個改革、改進的方案，但是我在這裡可能要跟部長再討論更細節的部分。","第一個，使用SRF作為燃料的工廠，過去5年抽驗了17個工廠，一共217根的管道，其中99%檢驗出戴奧辛。217根的煙囪管道裡面只有兩根煙道的戴奧辛是零，其他99%都檢出戴奧辛。戴奧辛的多或少只是這樣的差異，如果以現在既有的固定污染源──戴奧辛的排放標準來看，這217根新設污染源的排放標準值都應該要小於0.5奈克，如果用這樣的標準來看，其實有兩根煙道都已經超標了，但是依據你們6月公布的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準，因為現在的SRF其實是要放到工業生產裡面當成輔助燃料的，所以它是要放到工業部門去燒的，工業部門使用的鍋爐、所產生的空氣污染排放標準，你們當然希望嚴格一點，因為你知道有污染的固定污染源或者是焚化廠，他們在做環評的時候，其實都有相當的設置標準了，比如說，它不會在人口密度高的都市的中間去設置，可是不要忘了，工業生產的工廠，其實人口活動、人口密度是相當高的，所以以鍋爐的空氣污染排放標準來講，我們的標準應該小於0.1奈克，在這種狀況裡面，檢出戴奧辛的就有15根煙道超標，而且重點是這裡面含有水泥窯，從水泥窯的煙道、煙囟裡面檢出來的戴奧辛是超標的，過去環保單位、大家都說，水泥窯是鹼性的環境，不會燒出戴奧辛，所以你們大家都放水，不管制水泥窯，讓這些大財團、大型業者的水泥製造商，其實都沒有在管戴奧辛的，結果這次看起來，他們不但有檢出戴奧辛，而且還是超標，所以這種高溫的水泥窯，並不像業者所說的，不會產生戴奧辛，而且它的監測濃度，以台泥2020年9月採樣的花蓮和平場為例，它的戴奧辛濃度不是你們的標準0.1奈克，而是檢出0.215奈克，所以根據你們新修的鍋爐空氣污染排放標準，你們還說，除了水泥業以外，都要遵循這個標準。換句話說，你們的空污管制的排放標準，其實是排除了水泥業，但是我們不懂為什麼你要排除水泥業的適用呢？請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實有兩個部分，因為過去對於SRF的製造，其實是非常的含混，所以我們預計體檢之後會有顯著的分級，在分級之後，如果它燒的料是正確的，白料就沒有這樣的問題……"],["林委員淑芬：這沒有強制力，部長，你不要在這裡唬弄我們，沒有強制力的分級，你國家的管制標準是產品標準，你們仍然是最低標準，你這個分級只是建議，沒有強制力啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個我們會提升到以管理的辦法來處理，因為過去只是指引而已。另外一個，委員強調的是在水泥窯的部分，其實我們未來……"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼要排除水泥窯？現在所有跡象和證據，還有採樣的樣本都證明，水泥窯不但不像業者說的，不會燒出戴奧辛，而且還燒出超標的戴奧辛！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在所有相關的，第一個，一定會比照，全部都要有；水泥窯的部分，因為過去他們的專業認知，是因為它的溫度高，所以戴奧辛燒不出來……"],["林委員淑芬：現在就有，可是實務面就是有檢出啊！"],["彭部長啓明：對，所以這個部分我們會比照新的辦法，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：你們新的辦法就還是排除它啊！你們新的修正草案第八條規定，除了水泥業以外，其他加熱設備或程序使用SRF者，準用本條文相關規定。你還是排除了水泥業啊！"],["彭部長啓明：這個目前只是草案，所以委員的意見我們會把它放進去。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。","我們現在來講工業鍋爐，你知道工業區其實就在住宅區旁邊，工業區進進出出活動的人相當多，人口密度相當的高，所以工業鍋爐燃燒什麼東西，其實是會影響受體的，就是工業區的排放大家都會吸得到，以前燒戴奧辛排放潛勢比較低的煤炭，大家都覺得不需要檢測，可是現在你要混燒了，工業鍋爐可以燒SRF，SRF會產生戴奧辛，還有現在產出的經檢測，甚至還有塑化劑。但是在整個燒的過程，你們有管制標準、排放的標準，可是它是混燒，混燒表示它燒燃煤，然後也燒SRF，但是混燒的狀況是，它會稀釋掉戴奧辛的濃度，所以現行規劃採用專燒垃圾的焚化爐的戴奧辛排放標準來規範，只混燒一定比例SRF的工業鍋爐，那麼這些稀釋的效應，會讓工業鍋爐很容易就達標，它就沒有違反這個規定，就沒有超出排放標準，可是我們都知道，工業鍋爐的規模龐大，排氣量甚至是焚化爐的好幾倍；而透過稀釋混燒達標的廢氣，它的戴奧辛濃度再乘以龐大的排氣量以後，排放的總量可能不下於焚化爐！這樣的排放加成作用，環境部真的有思考到嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在有17個使用SRF所謂工業用的或是說水泥窯，我們未來會全部、逐一加嚴到標準。所以委員提到的問題，我們的確現在……"],["林委員淑芬：你們的草案、你們的標準恐怕還太寬鬆。另外，鍋爐空污排放標準並沒有監測戴奧辛的生成物質之一─氯，而使用SRF作為替代燃料也要納入空污即時監測管制對象。工業區都是人口稠密地區，而你們最基礎的品質標準沒有改變，你的分級就沒有意義。因為時間有限，我最後講，你們現在以焚化廢棄物而行SRF之名的疑慮都還存在，用最低的品質、最低的門檻，這樣誰有動機去做出好一點的SRF呢？最後我再講，SRF製造廠有49家，使用廠有17家，你們不斷開放設立製造廠，讓製造的人越來越多，產出的量越來越多，可是原料變少了，廢棄物供給量不足，業者為了衝產能，會不會鋌而走險使用不可作為固體再生燃料廢棄物的原料，或是進口廢棄物來製造SRF？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不會有進口……"],["林委員淑芬：因為你們現在核准的執照許可，它的生產量遠遠超過事業廢棄物所能製造SRF來源的量。"],["彭部長啓明：我們9月時會提出完整的SRF體檢報告，我們會把委員的考慮放在裡面。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那我們就再檢視，目前看起來問題還很多。"],["彭部長啓明：知道。"],["林委員淑芬：院長，拜託。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請環境部加強檢測作為。"],["林委員淑芬：院長，齊一放假，拜託。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（16時7分）","繼續開會（16時17分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1136601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7434687500000003,"end":4.8572187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.22409375,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.83471875,"end":14.914718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.43659375,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.145343750000002,"end":78.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.82034375,"end":200.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.92346875,"end":203.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.28596875000002,"end":205.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.14221875,"end":209.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.87159375000002,"end":210.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.78284375,"end":212.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.65596875,"end":214.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.34346875,"end":216.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.46971875000003,"end":217.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.76909375000002,"end":219.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.94596875000002,"end":219.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.96284375000002,"end":220.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.12721875000003,"end":221.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.68409375000002,"end":226.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.00409375,"end":226.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.03784375,"end":234.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.98221875000002,"end":231.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.63971875000001,"end":245.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.00596875000002,"end":242.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.72659375,"end":254.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.59471875000003,"end":257.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.10096875000002,"end":254.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.32034375,"end":255.23159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.62784375,"end":259.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.60659375,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.69034375,"end":275.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.63346875,"end":329.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.17784375,"end":331.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.28284375000004,"end":346.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.13284375,"end":349.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.81596875,"end":354.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.59159375,"end":360.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.31221875,"end":364.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.35409375,"end":362.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.96971875,"end":372.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.42846875000004,"end":373.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.91346875000005,"end":376.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.17034375000003,"end":382.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.23284375000003,"end":383.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.07221875000005,"end":390.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.22721875,"end":393.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.82596875,"end":398.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.69909375000003,"end":396.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.48346875000004,"end":417.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.97409375,"end":430.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.08596875,"end":532.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.9265937499999,"end":547.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.3334687500001,"end":568.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.70159375,"end":611.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.96909375,"end":643.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.74471875,"end":645.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.6515937500001,"end":648.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.85784375,"end":650.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.5915937500001,"end":666.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.84659375,"end":676.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.2922187500001,"end":680.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":680.46471875,"end":690.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.7078437499999,"end":703.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.53284375,"end":713.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.9197187500001,"end":713.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.7590937500001,"end":715.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":715.6997187500001,"end":719.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.87221875,"end":732.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":721.23471875,"end":722.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.1697187500001,"end":735.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start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這個我們現在所有的第一個是一定會比照全部都要有那水泥因為過去他們的專業認知是因為它的溫度高所以大澳溪燒不出來可是實務面就是減粗啊對 所以這個部分我們會比照新的辦法所以我們那個辦法你們新的辦法就是還是排除它啊你們新的修正草案第八條規定除了水泥液以外其他加熱設備或程序使用SRF者準用本條文相關規定你還排除了水泥液啊"},{"start":732.641,"end":755.715,"text":"這個目前只是草案,所以委員的意見我們會把它放進去。好,謝謝。那我們現在講說工業鍋爐,你知道工業區其實就在住宅區旁邊啊,工業區進進出出的活動的人相當多,人口密度相當的高,所以工業鍋爐燃燒什麼東西其實是會影響受體的,就工業區的排放大家都會吸得到的嘛。"},{"start":756.195,"end":776.209,"text":"那以前它燒這個大躍芯排放潛勢比較低的這個煤炭那大家都覺得不需要檢測嘛可是現在你要混燒了工業鍋爐可以燒SRFSRF會產生大躍芯甚至現在產出大家檢測到甚至還有這個塑化劑"},{"start":779.691,"end":792.118,"text":"所以但是在整個燒你們有管制標準排放的標準可是它是混燒混燒它燃煤然後也燒SRF但是呢混燒的狀況它會稀釋掉這個代澳鋅的濃度"},{"start":796.681,"end":817.017,"text":"所以現行規劃採用專燒垃圾的焚化爐的代號性排放標準來規範只混燒一定比例SRF的工業鍋爐那麼這些稀釋的效應會讓工業鍋爐很容易就達標它沒有違反這個規定沒有超出排放標準"},{"start":817.898,"end":838.863,"text":"可是我們都知道工業鍋爐的規模龐大排氣量甚至是焚化爐的好幾倍而透過稀釋混燒而達標的這個廢氣它的帶耗性的濃度在乘以龐大的這個排氣量以後它的排放量總量總量"},{"start":841.184,"end":866.502,"text":"他可能不下於焚化爐而這樣排放的加成作用環境部真的有思考到嗎?報告委員其實這個部分因為現在有17個在使用這個SRF的這個所謂的工業用的或是說水泥窯其實我們未來會全部的逐一的加嚴到標準所以委員提到的問題我們的確現在未來在這個你們的草案你們標準恐怕還太寬鬆另外再講"},{"start":868.203,"end":869.164,"text":"因為時間有限我最後講喔"},{"start":887.583,"end":914.421,"text":"所以你們現在以焚化廢棄而行SRF之名的這種疑慮都還存在用最低的品質最低的門檻然後誰有動機會做出好的一點的SRF呢所以最後再講SRF製造廠有49家那使用廠有17家你們不斷的開放設立製造廠那製造的人越來越多產出的量越來越多可是這個它的原料變少了"},{"start":914.881,"end":925.205,"text":"那廢棄物供給量供給量不足他為了充產能會不會鋌而走險使用不可作為固體再生燃料廢棄物的原料或是進口廢棄物來製造SRF呢?報告委員不會有進口會因為你們的"},{"start":933.069,"end":957.747,"text":"他的生產量遠遠的超過,遠遠超過我們的CF75所能夠製造SRF的白油的量。所以說我們9月的時候已經有一個完整的SRF來提前報告,誰是委員要考慮我們放在哪?好,那我就再解釋。好,謝謝。但是他問題還很多,問題還很多。好。因為我們就不加強他檢測作用。對啊,因為呢?"},{"start":961.83,"end":968.902,"text":"好,謝謝林委員,謝謝卓院長。八月會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢,現在休息。"}]}},{"id":"154586","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154586","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb61854b6a7da4377888fa09fb1100d58f4be2199544e32500e6bb62c4ba8584081235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"15:34:54 - 15:50:57","影片長度":"00:16:03","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T15:34:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T15:50:57+08:00","duration":963,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":289,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（15時35分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：院長好。非常謝謝院長的引領，讓我有機會進入國會殿堂來服務，替我熱愛的國家跟摯愛的鄉親民眾們略盡一分棉薄之力，我一定會全力以赴。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝王委員，您在癌症方面的專業是全民都景仰的，希望你在這方面多提供政府許多寶貴的意見，我們共同努力。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以今天還是要利用有限的時間來就教院長有關於癌症相關的問題，以及AI醫療未來如何能夠幫助我們臺灣打造一個更好的健康臺灣的機會。我們也知道，在2030年，賴總統很希望能夠把癌症的死亡率可以減低三分之一，意思就是說，以2022年為例的話，希望在未來能讓1萬5,000個癌症病人可以免於癌症的死亡，當然這個是一個很重要、很需要大家一起來努力的目標，所以為了要達到這個目標，也有賴卓院長領導的AI內閣能夠來全力促成。","我們也知道，其實行政院的政務非常地繁忙，為了要推動全國各項的政務，一共設立了45個任務編組，其中有18個是屬於法律相關的要求，另外有27個是屬於依照業務的需要而設立的，其中有一項就是中央癌症防治會報。這一部分依照目前癌症防治法的規定，行政院為了要執行癌症防治政策，要設立中央防治會報，當然由院長來擔任召集人，每一年至少要開會一次，這是目前法律的要求。我們也可以根據現有的任務編組看出，它的法定頻率其實是有非常不一樣的地方，包括以治安會報來看，每兩個月就要召開一次；如果以國家永續發展委員會為例的話，是由國發會擔任幕僚機關，一年需要開會一到兩次，可是為了要因應複雜龐大的工作，工作分組跟專案小組就另外要求每三到六個月要召開一次會議；如果以現有的衛福部相關任務編組來看的話，食品安全會報每三個月一次；可是中央癌症防治會報，我們剛看到了，就是至少一年一次。這一部分請問院長，你知道之前開會的紀錄狀況如何嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：它如果寫一年一次的話，應該不是那麼地……跟其他比較起來，沒有那麼頻繁地開會，但未來我們一定是……因為現在我們在籌辦癌症新藥基金，相關的會議我們在內部是很頻繁地在召開，或許沒有這麼大型的會議，但實質的功能我們要把它發揮出來。"],["王委員正旭：的確，因為癌症對國民健康所造成的危害實在是非常地大，而且對於整個民眾財政的負擔、對國家的財政負擔也非常非常地嚴重，所以我們很期待有更好開會頻率的同時，也能夠加強它的效率。我們可以看一下這個數據，的確，過去這八年多以來，民進黨執政以後，一年真的是開一次會議，而且相關會議在賴總統擔任院長的時候，他是親自主持；陳前院長在擔任院長的時候也是親自主持，因為一個是醫師、一個是公衛的專家，所以他們會對於會報的主持是非常希望能夠達到目標，不知道院長您將來有機會親自來主持嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個請委員放心，雖然我本身沒有醫師專業的知識，但是我始終記得，賴總統在競選前後以及當選之後，他一直在思索一個問題，身為一個醫師出身的總統，應該為臺灣多做一些什麼事情，他也用這樣的想法來交付我所有的工作，包括這麼重要的工作，我們在健康臺灣的論壇、後來的深耕計畫，以及現在要提出的癌症新藥等各方面，我們都一一在落實他過去的想法。所以未來這樣重大的會議，我跟委員保證，我一定親自主持，並邀集所有的專家跟與會的所有人來共同商量，尤其我們在癌症新藥基金成立的前後，我想一定會召開這樣的會議。"],["王委員正旭：非常感謝院長。不過，如果我們再從國家永續發展委員會為例的話，我們也知道，其實依照規定它是一年召開一到兩次，可是因為它的任務真的非常非常地繁複龐雜，所以它會設計各種工作的分組跟專案小組來推動，不然像院長在這麼忙碌的情形之下，真的要非常努力地來推動，這個心是一定有的，可是怎麼樣去讓它落實，也要有好的一個模式。如果以這個為例的話，未來在這個架構上面，癌症防治會報應該可以怎麼執行，我們可以根據這樣的方式來瞭解，將來的執行狀況可不可以根據現有的公費癌篩的癌別來做一些分組，讓未來在執行的時候可以更有效率，而且也可以讓這些專家們能夠在提供各種意見的同時，有更好的模式來推展整個癌症的防治？剛剛也有很多委員非常關心癌症防治，尤其在篩檢的部分，這一部分院長可以承諾在召開頻率，還有在各方面的努力，都可以透過這個癌症防治會報架構上的處理，來讓這個工作可以更落實嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。為了讓這個會報更有功能、更有效率，未來一定要朝這個方向做，我想除了邱部長之外，我還會請陳時中政委也發揮他在這方面的專業，我們共同來研議如何將委員所建議的這幾項，或許還有其他的，把它有系統的、歸納性地、有效率地來做各種會議的進行，重要的是之後的執行要由部裡面來負起這個責任，這個我們會督促。"],["王委員正旭：是的，謝謝。因為我們知道，過去其實相關的部門也非常地努力來做一些癌症的篩檢。我們看到的數據就是癌症篩檢的比例，相對來講是30%到50%不等，當然相對其他的國家並沒有比較差，可是如果我們真的希望在2030年要減低癌症死亡率的話，我們的癌篩一定要再努力地加強，不管是在項目的擴編也好，或者是相關條件的放寬也好，都需要專家一起共同來努力。所以針對癌篩的部分，我們希望透過架構上的調整以後，來達到更好的目的。","當然，再過來我們需要關心的就是費用的問題。剛剛游委員也提到，很擔心癌篩費用的經費到底夠不夠，因為我們從這個數據看起來，這個菸捐的確好像也是逐年受到一些影響，明年在編列預算上可能會有一些短缺，這部分院長有沒有什麼更好的方案，可以讓我們這個費用的編列達到相關的目標？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長回答。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員對癌症防治的部分一直努力跟關心，我們也都知道，希望2030年我們的癌症死亡率能夠降低三分之一，這是非常遠大的目標，也是非常重要提升國人健康的目標。因為癌症的篩檢，其實不管是在量或者是給付方面，從一開始到現在幾乎都沒有改變，所以要怎麼樣提升，當然我們要從它的年齡層是不是要擴大，還有每一個檢查、篩檢來看，現在所有的成本幾乎都提高了，所以在給付方面也應該要多一點。我們國健署最近也提出了一個整體癌症的癌症健康促進計畫，這個部分我想會一年一年地加強，我也感謝院長的支持，我想我們明年會擴大它的規模，應該會造福更多的民眾。"],["王委員正旭：好，因為根據癌症防治法，其實篩檢的費用主要是來自於菸品健康福利捐，不過其實它裡面也有規定、要求，或者是接受機構、團體之捐助。同樣地，如果將來有機會的話，我們希望有更多的社會善心團體或者是經營企業有成的人士們，針對國家未來在癌症篩檢的部分，也能夠善盡一份的心力，這部分也麻煩院長，有機會的話，可以多鼓勵或者是用其他的方式來引導這些團體，願意把經費能夠挹注進來。"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣的社會一直充滿著愛心，從過去也不乏這個例子，捐助給醫療機構很大筆的研究或是相關的費用，我想未來我們還是需要民間多方的捐助，公私部門通力來合作。"],["王委員正旭：是，那就麻煩院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：再過來就是有關於口腔癌的部分，其實我們知道口腔癌針對很多的勞工朋友，它是很重大的一個議題，因為他們在生活的過程裡面，很有可能會因為工作的需要，而具有這些生活習慣，包括喝酒、嚼食檳榔跟抽香菸，如果有這些習慣的話，他得到口腔癌機會真的是非常非常地高。根據以前葛教授所做的研究，甚至高到123倍，如果3個都有的話；如果是以吃檳榔為例，它會提高到28倍。所以檳榔真的是口腔癌一個重要的因子，對於這些勞工朋友的影響非常非常地大，口腔癌如果能夠篩檢的話，的確它的效果也非常非常地好。","可是我們目前比較關心的就是檳榔入法的狀況，目前針對檳榔的防治，其實只有在兒少法跟學校衛生法裡面，去要求兒童、少年跟高中以下的同學們不能夠嚼食檳榔，其他的部分相對的規範就非常非常地有限。所以未來如何有機會跟菸害防制法一樣，能夠進行好的主管機關規範、管理方式、辦理防制教育跟宣傳等等，院長將來有沒有機會能夠促成這個部分？因為目前對於檳榔是不是一個食品、它的防制機關、未來如何有效納管，還有檳榔防制是不是需要立專法，曾經有一個公聽會，可是公聽會後面在執行上它還是很難落實。","其實我們也知道菸害防制法並不是要讓民眾不抽香菸這麼簡單，因為完全能夠禁絕是很困難的，我們希望是一個良好的管制，所以如果能夠比照相關在菸品上加註警語，或者是對於檳榔產製的販售有一些基本的衛生管理，這個是由哪一個主管機關來管理？院長，這部分可不可以有更好的指示來讓相關單位可以辦理？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個工作我們一直很審慎地在進行，因為要考慮過去到現在很多農民他們自己在從事生計上的問題。但是從108年開始，我們也持續對於檳榔廢園跟轉作做了相當多的努力，目前執行的有658公頃的轉作，現在這個計畫還繼續在執行當中，會進行到2026年，希望能夠逐步地減少這樣的農作面積，讓它產生的後遺症降低，同時也取締這些非法進口，讓它不會危害到大家的健康。但是現行要檢討檳榔危害防制管理與法規上尚有不足的地方，我們還要再進一步的研議，不過剛剛講的廢園轉作的作業方案，還是持續在進行當中。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝，那……"],["卓院長榮泰：部長要補充。"],["邱部長泰源：我補充一下，站在衛福部的立場，我們關心它對健康的危害，繼續盤點及精進檳榔危害管理的規範，所以我們一直在盤點國內外檳榔衛生安全及包裝標示的這些規範，特別針對孕婦、兒童、青少年等脆弱的族群，就公共衛生及法律的層面，我們綜合來評估研議，朝向也許是有檳榔危害防制專法管制的可行性。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。在有限的時間，就麻煩院長針對AI智慧醫療，尤其是如何能夠打造AI醫療國家隊，能夠去成就主權AI雲，未來變成另外一座的護國神山，這部分不知道院長有沒有哪一方面的指示，可以讓整個團隊可以運作得更為順暢，不只是衛福部主管機關而已，還包括其他的相關部門、相關部會一起來促成這樣的工作？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們一起在健康臺灣的論壇當中提出最終幾項結論，在深耕計畫當中，不管是健保制度的維護以及AI精準醫療這個工作，都是未來工作的重點，我們一起來工作、一起來努力。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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有更好的開會頻率的同時也能夠加強它的效率我們可以看一下這個數據的確過去這8年多以來民政黨民進黨執政以後一年真的是開一次會議而且相關的會議在"},{"start":280.954,"end":303.545,"text":"賴總統擔任院長的時候他是親自主持。全城院長他在擔任這個院長的時候他也是親自主持。一個是醫師一個是這個公衛的專家所以他們會對於這個會報的主持是非常的希望能夠達到他的目標。那不知道院長您將來有機會會來親自主持嗎?"},{"start":307.422,"end":322.198,"text":"這個請委員放心雖然我本身沒有醫師的專業的知識但是我始終記得賴總統在競選的前後以及當選之後他一直在思索一個問題身為一個醫師出身的總統應該為台灣多做一些什麼事情"},{"start":322.739,"end":348.611,"text":"他也用這樣的想法來交付我所有的工作所以包括這麼重要的工作我們在健康台灣的論壇以後來的深耕計畫以及現在要提出的癌症新藥各種方面我們都一一在落實他過去的想法所以未來這樣重大的會議我跟委員表示我會保證我一定親自主持邀請所有的專家跟與會的所有人來共同商量尤其我們在癌症新藥基金成立的前後我想一定會召開這樣的會議"},{"start":350.438,"end":369.479,"text":"非常感謝院長。不過如果我們再從這個國家永續發展委員會為例的話,剛剛我們也知道他其實依照規定是一年召開一到兩次,可是因為他的任務真的非常非常的繁複、龐雜,所以呢他會設計的各種工作的分組跟專案的小組,"},{"start":369.94,"end":369.98,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":397.591,"end":424.583,"text":"此行狀況可不可以根據現有的公費、癌篩的癌別來做一些分組。未來在執行的時候可以更有效率而且可以讓這些專家們能夠發揮他在提供各種意見的同時更有好的模式來推展整個癌症的防治。剛剛也有很多委員非常關心有關於癌症防治尤其在篩檢的部分那這部分"},{"start":426.189,"end":452.001,"text":"院長您可以承諾在召開評慮還有在各方面的努力都可以有透過這個癌症防治匯報架構上的處理來讓這個工作可以更落實嗎?謝謝讓這個會議更有功能更有效率這未來一定要朝這個方向做我想除了邱部長之外我還會請陳時中政委也發揮他在這方面的這個專業我們共同來研力如何將"},{"start":452.921,"end":464.676,"text":"委員所建議的這幾項或許還有其他的把它有系統的規納性的有效率的來做各種會議的進行重要的是之後的執行要有部裡面來負起這個責任這個我們會督促"},{"start":466.883,"end":480.357,"text":"是的,謝謝。因為我們知道過去其實相關的部門也非常的努力來做一些癌症的篩檢。那我們看到的數據就是癌症篩檢的比例相對來講是到30%到50%不等。"},{"start":483.905,"end":483.925,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":501.323,"end":501.343,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":518.163,"end":546.979,"text":"再過來我們需要關心的就是費用的問題。剛剛有委員也提到這個很擔心這個癌篩費用的經費到底夠不夠。因為我們從這個數據看起來這個菸捐的確相對也是逐年好像受到一些影響。那明年在編列預算上可能會有一些短缺。那這部分院長有沒有什麼更好的方案可以來讓我們這個費用的編列可以達到相關的目標。"},{"start":550.281,"end":566.994,"text":"謝謝委員對癌症防治的一直努力跟關心。那我們也都知道希望2030年我們的癌症死亡率能夠降低三分之一,這是非常遠大的目標,但是是非常重要的國人健康的目標。那我們"},{"start":569.741,"end":598.517,"text":"因為這個癌症的篩檢其實不管是在量或者是它幾乎方面都從一開始到現在幾乎都沒有改變所以如何要怎麼樣提升當然我們要從它的年齡層是不是要擴大還有每一個檢查篩檢現在所有的成本幾乎都提高了所以在幾乎方面也應該要多一點那我們這樣子國健署最近也提出一個整體的癌症的"},{"start":599.189,"end":599.209,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":617.045,"end":633.526,"text":"好,那一個根據癌症防治法,其實這個篩檢的費用主要是來自於原品健康福利捐,不過其實它裡面也有規定,或者是也有要求,或者是接受機構團體之捐助,這同樣的"},{"start":634.767,"end":658.218,"text":"如果將來有機會的話我們希望有更多的社會的善心團體或者是一些經營企業有成的這些人士們能不能夠針對這個國家未來在癌症篩檢的部分也能夠善盡一份的心力。那這部分也麻煩院長有機會的話可以多鼓勵或者是用其他的方式來引導這些團體願意把經費能夠挹注進來。"},{"start":662.02,"end":675.389,"text":"台灣的社會一直充滿愛心,從過去也不乏這個例子,捐助給醫療機構很大筆的研究或是相關的費用。我想未來我們還是需要民間多方的捐助,公私部門通力來合作。"},{"start":679.226,"end":695.654,"text":"議員長,再過來就是有關你口腔癌的部分。其實我們知道口腔癌針對很多的勞工朋友他是一個很重大的一個議題。因為他們在生活的過程裡面很有可能會因為這個工作的需要而具有這些生活習慣,包括喝酒。"},{"start":696.883,"end":725.379,"text":"還有嚼食檳榔跟抽香菸齁那如果有這些習慣的話他得到口腔癌機會真的是非常非常的高以前葛教授所做的研究甚至高到123倍如果三個都有的話如果是以吃檳榔為例他會提高到28倍所以檳榔真的是一個口腔癌一個重要的因子他對於這個這些勞工朋友的影響非常非常的大那對於口腔癌如果能夠篩檢的話的確他的效果也非常非常的好"},{"start":726.693,"end":749.31,"text":"可是我們目前比較關心的就是檳榔入法的狀況目前針對檳榔的防治其實只有在兒少法跟學校衛生法裡面去要求兒童少年跟高中年級以下的這些同學們不能夠絞食檳榔其他的部分相對規範就非常非常的有限"},{"start":750.111,"end":750.131,"text":"﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":769.65,"end":788.422,"text":"﹚國會議員"},{"start":788.742,"end":814.38,"text":"並不是要讓民眾不抽香煙這麼簡單,因為這是很困難完全能夠進絕的,我們希望是一個良好的管制,所以如果能夠比照相關在煙品上加注檢語或者是對於檳榔產製的販售,有一些基本的衛生管理,那這個是由哪一個主管機關來管理,院長這部分可不可以有更好的指示來讓相關單位可以辦理。"},{"start":815.641,"end":833.325,"text":"報告委員這個工作我們一直很審慎的在進行因為要考慮到過去到現在很多農民他們自己在從事生技上的問題但是從108年開始我們也持續對於檳榔廢園跟轉座做了相當多的努力目前執行了有658公頃的轉座那現在這個計畫還繼續在執行當中會進行到2026年那希望能夠"},{"start":841.923,"end":865.891,"text":"逐步的減少這樣的一個籠座的面積那讓他的產生的後遺症可能降低同時也取締這些非法進口的讓他不會危害到大家的健康所以但是現行要檢討檳榔危害防治管理與法規上上有不足的地方我們還要再進一步的研擬但是剛剛講的那個肺炎去轉座的作業方案還是持續在進行當中"},{"start":867.017,"end":893.935,"text":"是,好,謝謝。部部長再補充。我補充一下,我們繼續站在衛福部的立場,我們關心這個對他的健康的危害,所以我們繼續盤點及精進病人危害管理的規範。所以我們一直在盤點國內外病人衛生安全及包装、包製的這些規範,特別針對孕婦、兒童、青少年等脆弱的族群,就公共衛生及法律的層面,"},{"start":894.554,"end":917.501,"text":"我們綜合來評估研議,朝向也許是有檳榔危害防治專法管制的可行性。好,謝謝。那在有限的時間就麻煩院長針對於這個AI智慧醫療,尤其是如何能夠打造這個國家隊的AI能夠去成就"},{"start":918.061,"end":918.822,"text":"謝謝委員我們一起在健康臺灣"},{"start":953.601,"end":961.514,"text":"好,謝謝王委員好,謝謝左院長下一位我們請林淑芬委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"154585","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154585","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb61804a8bf9f0aebcc22a09fb1100d58f4be9d3d28c55f1f245bf88d0086199a8d6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"15:18:48 - 15:34:44","影片長度":"00:15:56","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-09","start_time":"2024-07-09T15:18:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-09T15:34:44+08:00","duration":956,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","id":"院會-11-1-21","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":220,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（15時19分）謝謝主席副院長，有請行政院院長還有衛福部部長。"],["主席：請卓院長還有衛福部邱部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["游委員顥：院長好，延續剛才羅廷瑋委員所提到的，衛福部公布了國人十大死因，癌症居死因之冠，占死亡人數的四分之一，癌症治療的問題急待解決，尤其賴清德總統也有提到健康臺灣的願景，希望2030年減少因癌症死亡人數的三分之一，但是理想很豐滿，現實很骨感。除了剛才羅廷瑋委員所提到的，我們來檢視一下癌症的相關預算。為了要降低死亡率，國健署擬定了最新的癌症防治計畫，但是癌症篩檢的經費是明顯不足，菸捐的收益早已不敷使用，所以衛福部今年也首度向行政院爭取明年度的公務預算，金額達31億，但是目前還沒有辦法支應2030年要達到的目標，以及明年的癌篩需求。請問除了癌篩之外，未來的公務預算或相關編列癌症的預算需求，部長要不要先說明一下？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。我想我們要達到2030年癌症死亡率降低三分之一，當然要整體來考量，就是委員所說的，篩檢是一個重要的部分，篩檢更應該包括到都會區跟偏鄉，尤其偏鄉的老人篩檢率特別低，所以我想有時候我們有計畫，但是要怎麼樣把它落實。為了讓篩檢更有效果，我們現在在擬定一個整體性的癌症篩檢計畫，從幾個常見的癌症篩檢，我們會把年齡層擴大，然後也希望把每一個項目的給付增加。"],["游委員顥：好。部長，我就直接問您，衛福部打算籌措100億的癌症新藥基金，民進黨執政第9年了，癌友等待癌症新藥基金已經818天，在癌篩缺口已經31億的情況之下，癌症的新藥基金就要100億，錢從哪裡來？要從衛福部的公務預算編列嗎？還是有其他預算可以支應？"],["邱部長泰源：癌症百億基金，依照需求，當然今年我們是用健保的暫時支付制度來給付，看起來對病人是有幫助，但是還沒有正式得到肯定的部分……"],["游委員顥：行政院的回應。"],["邱部長泰源：明年我們就會擴展到60億，這就是政府的公務預算，第三年我們希望達到100億。"],["游委員顥：部長您所提的，我的稿子就已經寫了，不管是24.9億、60億到第三年的100億，公務預算沒有辦法這樣隨意喊價，財政紀律的部分，當初就遵守相關的規範，財政紀律法就有明定成立基金需要國庫撥補以外的財源，所以癌症的基金不可能100億都只由公務預算支出，未來相關財源的籌措還有哪些作為？"],["邱部長泰源：你說癌症防治基金？"],["游委員顥：對。"],["邱部長泰源：癌症防治基金的部分，我們現在當然是在研擬怎麼樣設這個基金是最符合癌症病人的使用，包括將來是否有可能也讓社會各界企業來幫忙，讓整個規模增大，也許我們可以造福更多的病人；在公務基金的部分，我想我們至少在三年內一定有公務預算到百億。"],["游委員顥：本席就直接就教，相關的糖捐、菸捐、酒捐都是健保所規定的財務來源，菸捐已經開徵了，不屬於新的財務來源，請教部長，衛福部未來會不會將所謂的糖捐、酒捐進行開徵，挹注在癌症基金上？"],["邱部長泰源：因為……"],["游委員顥：還是院長直接回答好了。"],["邱部長泰源：因為菸捐已經相當滿了，因為我們有滿多包括癌症篩檢等等都是……這個可能要再研議看看。"],["游委員顥：部長，我想院長應該想要說明一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，癌症新藥讓許多癌友能夠得到一些照顧，這是國家的政策，我們一定是在財政紀律法的規範底下去尋找如何來充實這個基金，目前因為還在下年度總預算的編列過程當中，我們也嘗試看哪個財源是適合的，但是委員剛剛所提到那幾項還沒有的，應該排除在這個考慮之外。"],["游委員顥：所以糖捐、菸捐、酒捐目前是排除在外？"],["卓院長榮泰：菸的部分已經是原來的。"],["游委員顥：菸的部分有在進行我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：其他兩項目前並沒有把它納入來積極考慮，我們希望找更多適當的財源，或是接受民間的合作跟捐助。"],["游委員顥：OK。在這裡跟院長及部長特別強調一下，因為不管是糖捐還是酒捐，尤其是酒捐的話，包括料理米酒等等都是重要的民生常使用物品，這個只要一列入的時候，茲事體大，牽扯都非常深，甚至會帶動整個物價又一波上漲，這個部分院長剛才也直接回應了，不會以糖捐或者是酒捐來作為財務來源，我想這是一個很明確的答案，我覺得這樣子也很好，避免引起民怨，所以我想大家在相關的思考上面確實都有考量到這個問題。","回頭來講菸捐的部分，最近我們常常看到許多報導都提到加熱菸，在菸害防制法修正通過之後，加熱菸如果合法販售的話也可以合法課菸捐、菸稅，為什麼目前衛福部還是沒辦法儘速讓加熱菸的部分合法管制，而放著這龐大的稅收、不讓它課稅？"],["卓院長榮泰：先請部長回答。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想我們衛福部，尤其是國民健康署的專家小組是非常積極，regular大概每個禮拜都在開風險評估會議，目前大概有12家有意願來申請，大概有4家進行到某一個程度，可是再來要補件的時候，他們都沒有補過來，所以有時候沒辦法審下去，這個部分我們都可以很清楚地把現在所有的進度呈現給大家看。"],["游委員顥：我認為應該呈現就要呈現，因為要讓社會各界知道，其實像這種新興菸品本來就應該列入法的管制，這樣子對於民眾來講，整體的環境應該是更為健全，尤其是在歐美許多的國家，其實這些新興菸品都有管制在內。同樣的，在剛才提到的基金部分或是癌症相關的經費來源，能夠把加熱菸作為未來課稅或是菸捐的重點，我相信對於國民健康來講，也是非常有經費挹注上面的幫助。","問題是像現在水貨非常多，都卡在目前這個法規，那針對這些水貨的部分還有相關問題，衛福部有什麼具體的解決方法？目前來講，加熱菸都是水貨商賺走嘛，這個部分等同都是我們國民的稅收，這樣子加熱菸卡在健康風險評估的審查，需要請他們加快補件，以及在程序上要如何才能夠加強、才能夠讓法制管理確實可行？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我們一切一定依法辦理，尤其在審查的過程當中，其實這是國家大事，也是大家都很注意的，我想這個過程絕對是透明、公開、公平，可以讓大家來評斷，這部分請放心。至於其他水菸那個部分，可能就是要依法辦理。"],["游委員顥：沒錯。本席還是再特別跟院長、部長強調，國民健康是非常重要，尤其是癌症的部分，它的經費來源同樣重要，剛才院長也承諾了酒捐跟糖捐是沒有，目前來講，這個菸品，尤其在新興的菸品，將來的稅收或是菸捐就可以挹注在所謂的癌症基金裡面，我希望院長這邊以及衛福部可以加強、加速，包括透明以及能夠與相關業者溝通，讓這個法規範了、制定了之後能夠具體可行，也能夠儘快讓這些財源……不要到最後變得是走私氾濫，反而是要讓這些財源可以用在國民健康之上，這樣子院長可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["游委員顥：接續剛才的癌症新藥以外，另外一個用藥問題也為全國男性同胞請命，有關公費的HPV疫苗接種決策，2018年12月推動國中女生公費HPV疫苗接種，非常棒的決策，HPV的病毒確實是導致女性子宮頸癌的元兇，也是男性口咽癌的隱藏殺手，相關數據我這邊就不再強調，我想直接就教於院長和部長，在什麼時間點或是現在是不是可以開始進行我國國中兩性全面公費接種HPV疫苗？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想謝謝委員關心HPV對女生及男生在癌症預防方面的好處，我想國健署也爭取到預編的經費，應該是明年就可以在國中男女同時來開打。"],["游委員顥：好，再次謝謝部長。院長這部分您要補充一下嗎？因為70個國家都實施了，我國明年也會實施，院長你要特別……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，同樣的問題部長在先前的質詢中也答復過，時程就誠如部長所說的，我們朝這個時間做好準備。"],["游委員顥：OK，謝謝，謝謝衛福部長。接著我再問勞工議題，有請勞動部長。勞動部長，因為時間有限，我一邊講，直接延續剛才提到熱傷害的議題。過去我也是勞工背景出身的，關於熱傷害的議題，國健署是積極呼籲保持涼爽、多喝白開水、提高警覺，這對勞工來講並沒有實際意義，像剛才李坤城委員在質詢的時候有提到8月會做一個法制的檢討。我們也很遺憾地看到，在昨天的時候，新北板橋的工人也是一樣熱中暑、熱衰竭，倒臥鷹架搶救不治。同樣地，許多的法規、法令的修正如果是用生命來換，我講實在這都是悲劇。我想直接請教一下部長，對於高溫假或是高溫津貼，您的看法如何？"],["何部長佩珊：目前整個國際上是還沒有所謂高溫假這個假別……"],["游委員顥：高溫假在中東已經實施了，在伊拉克、伊朗都有實施，因為在全球暖化的情況之下，許多國家陸續有高溫假。"],["何部長佩珊：他們那個是沙漠國家。"],["游委員顥：對，是沙漠國家，但是因應全球暖化，大家陸續都在研議……"],["何部長佩珊：當然，可是我們現在會研究因應高溫的避難，勞工該有的避難設備或設施的提供……"],["游委員顥：我直接跟部長回應，今天勞工或是雇主他們除了避難……避難都已經是後端了，在事前來講，尤其現在暖化的極端氣候之下，其實高溫這種情況本來就非常嚴重，高溫假的議題跟今天高溫議題的討論本來也不是新議題了，我想關於這個部分，部長是不是可以拿出比較具體的、比較正向的態度來看待高溫假或高溫津貼？"],["何部長佩珊：我們現在其實也正在研究針對高溫的問題，是不是可能有一種避難的、彈性的工作安排……"],["游委員顥：不能說只有準備到避難……"],["何部長佩珊：這個可能是會針對……比較有實際的效用啦！因為牽涉到放假的話，勞資雙方都會有不同的意見，我們如果要讓勞工在這件事情上面真正能夠儘快、立即享受這樣子的效果的話，一個是我們強化高溫的勞檢……"],["游委員顥：部長，因為時間有限，我直接講避難的部分或是相關的設施、措施，這個部分不是用人命來去做後面的補強或回應，不是說8月要檢討一個整體法制的時候，就只有檢討避難措施或是雇主責任，而是在相關不管是假的部分或是津貼的部分，都應該一併納入考量、納入檢討，不是說多少溫度以上、達到標準才能夠進行高溫假或高溫津貼，在考量這個法制的修正來講就應該是要整體，而不是只侷限於避難。本席還是請部長還有包括院長，針對高溫假、高溫津貼在8月討論的時候納入總檢討的議題之中，院長這樣是否可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：請勞動部能夠再廣納各界的看法意見，因為臺灣到底不是一個全熱帶的地方，也不是像剛剛說的沙漠國家，我們在溫度的管控上面是不是可以有更好的方式，對勞工應該盡到保護責任當然是優先的，跟各界多多來做各種意見的交換，包括勞雇雙方的關係。"],["游委員顥：好，這個部分我會提出相關的法案，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝游委員。","楊曜委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","一、如何解決全國及澎湖縣需接受早療療育課程孩童久候問題，避免錯失早療黃金治療期？","問題：疫情後，2022年全台灣6歲以下幼兒「發展遲緩兒童早期療育服務個案通報」人數首次突破3萬人；2023年人數也持續創新高、超過3萬4千人，與疫情前相比，人數成長超過3成，媒體報導，針對學齡前兒童的聯合評估系統都很難排到，熱門的台大、馬偕平均要等半年，地區型醫院也要等三、四個月；但辦公室接獲民眾陳情，其實不只聯合評估大塞車，整個早療系統都塞車中，以陳情人的小孩為例，接受完醫院早療聯合評估，三個月後才拿到評估報告，在拿到評估報告後，陳情人前往各個診所預約早療課程，卻被告知課程至少要等待三個月，語言治療甚至要半年後才能安排上課，以澎湖縣為例，僅只有三處醫療院所提供早療療育課程，孩童接受早療療育課程塞車狀況勢必更加嚴重。面對早療系統，從前期個案接受評估，到後期個案需接受早療課程療育，皆需等候一段期間的狀況下，許多家長皆憂心錯過治療黃金期，為此，衛福部要如何抒解接受早療塞車狀況，讓有早療需求的孩子們能夠及早接受治療？","二、在面對COVID-19、流感疫情升溫，澎湖縣醫療量能是否已有提前因應？","問題：疾管署於6/25記者會指出，6/18-6/24該週新增817例COVID-19本土確定病例，總體累積死亡個案數中，65歲以上長者高達九成，疾管署進一步說明表示，國內新冠疫情上升且處流行期，預期近期仍呈上升趨勢，評估7月中旬後可能進入高原期，此外，疾管署亦表示，近期類流感門急診就診人次呈上升趨勢且處流行期，疾管署擴大公費流感抗病毒藥劑適用對象有類─流感症狀，且家人/同事/同班同學有類流感發病者。","而澎湖因為特殊地理位置，並無鄰近縣市可臨時調度、支援醫療用品，在面對COVID-19、流感疫情升溫的雙重考驗下，若無事先因應備足醫療量能，對於澎湖醫療系統將造成衝擊，請問衛福部，面對COVID-19及流感疫情升溫的狀況下，澎湖的醫療量能準備概況如何？","三、針對醫學中心評鑑只升不降，如何避免評鑑流於形式化？","問題：我曾在委員會質詢時和陳時中部長討論過，醫學中心的評鑑是否有升就有降，陳部長多次答覆都是有升就一定有降，為何同一執政黨前後的施政方針差異會那麼大？根據醫學中心評鑑規則，原本應該是每兩百萬人一家醫學中心，以台灣目前的人口數來說，大約就是12家醫學中心，但現在卻有22家，已經變成每百萬人口就有一家醫學中心，請問衛福部真的有在遵循評鑑規則嗎？學中心增加過多，可能嚴重破壞分級醫療制度，當醫學中心家數過多，可近性提高，在自付額差異不夠大的情況下，大家都往醫學中心跑，會造成區域及地區醫院的經營不易，且大多數資源也都被醫中拿走，進一步形成惡性循環，無法讓分級醫療順利實施。","請問行政院及衛福部對於醫學中心只增不減有什麼看法？未來醫學中心評鑑仍會持續執行，是否會重新設計評鑑辦法，若有不符評鑑結果之醫學中心，會將其中幾家醫院降評嗎？","四、為避免弱勢家庭能源貧窮，衛福部是否研議對於弱勢家庭新增節能家電換新補助？","問題：對很多弱勢家庭而言，使用能源的費用，特別是在夏季時的電費，占家庭支出很大一部分，且經濟狀況很可能不允許他們更換新家電，只能購買或受他人饋贈二手家電。雖然經濟部有最高5,000元的家電換新補助，但對於弱勢家庭而言，扣除補助後仍要負擔一筆很大的支出。舊家電除了因耗電量大而大幅提高電費，也可能因電線老舊發生失火意外，對於經濟和居家安全都有危害。台灣的水電費雖然和各國比起來相對不貴，但未來走向淨零轉型，能源的使用成本很可能會提高，對於弱勢家庭本就拮据的生活更是雪上加霜，落入「能源貧窮」的人會越來越多。","請問行政院及衛福部能否研議對於具福利身分的家庭「節能家電換新」進行專案的補助？不論是開放各地方政府申請或是由衛福部執行，提升弱勢家庭的基本生活品質。","五、請衛福部研議，針對社工人員新增心理諮商經費補助","問題：社工工作繁重，且長期累積負能量，也可能因為看不到個案轉變和希望而感到沮喪跟低落，甚至也有出現「替代性創傷」的可能。這些都可能引發憂鬱、緊張或焦慮，目前衛福部運用公益彩券基金去補助地方政府跟民間團體「心理諮商」的費用，但必須提計畫申請。","問題：請教衛福部，是否能針對「公職社工」、「政府委託或補助計畫的社工人員」直接補助心理諮商的經費，讓社工人員更可以運用心理諮商資源，提升身心健康？社工人員有更健康的生活和工作心態，應可以有效提升工作狀態並降低離職率。"],["主席：下一位請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1136601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.301593750000002,"end":28.785968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.12346875,"end":32.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.80534375,"end":39.822218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.822218750000005,"end":40.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.070968750000006,"end":41.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.205968750000004,"end":41.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.96534375,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.20159375,"end":46.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.23034375,"end":53.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.047843750000006,"end":59.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.58284375,"end":61.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.70909375,"end":64.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.72971875,"end":65.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.24846875,"end":69.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.62346875,"end":112.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.26659375000001,"end":112.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.17784375000001,"end":125.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.12096875,"end":128.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.68596875,"end":136.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.34284375000001,"end":139.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.43096875,"end":149.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.50596875000002,"end":146.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.42534375,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.96409375000002,"end":164.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.22034375,"end":183.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.17096875000001,"end":189.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.19534375,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.48596875,"end":197.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.53596875000002,"end":207.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.39659375000002,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.54284375,"end":238.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.36034375000003,"end":241.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.01846875,"end":243.45284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.57096875000002,"end":243.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.87034375000002,"end":250.21971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.48971875,"end":255.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.97409375,"end":261.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.54284375000003,"end":263.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.47909375,"end":268.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.25471875,"end":274.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.53659375,"end":277.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.86096875000004,"end":280.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.37534375,"end":282.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.70409375,"end":296.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.05596875000003,"end":299.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.91221875,"end":301.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.24534375,"end":311.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.36346875000004,"end":304.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.07096875,"end":311.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.98221875,"end":315.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.50909375000003,"end":315.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.55971875,"end":315.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.57659375000003,"end":317.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.77034375,"end":317.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.77034375,"end":319.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.82096875,"end":317.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.84596875,"end":321.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.70221875000004,"end":327.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.62534375,"end":330.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.12284375,"end":331.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.91159375,"end":334.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.62846875,"end":335.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.02909375,"end":337.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.00346875,"end":339.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.58971875000003,"end":341.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.68221875,"end":343.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.23471875,"end":345.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.07409375000003,"end":349.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.93846875,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.13659375000003,"end":351.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.80721875,"end":361.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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院長好就接著延續著我們剛才羅廷偉委員所提到的那在衛福部公布的十大死因癌症居死因之冠那佔死亡人數的四分之一那癌症治療的問題即待解決尤其像賴清德總統他有提到那這個健康台灣的願景那希望2030年減少因癌症死亡人數的三分之一"},{"start":66.506,"end":93.377,"text":"但是這理想很豐滿現實很骨感那來看一下除了剛才我們羅廷偉委員所提到的我們來檢視一下癌症的相關的預算那目前為了要降低那國健署他擬定了最新癌症防治計畫但是癌症篩檢的經費是明顯不足菸捐的收益早已不服使用那所以在衛福部這一次今年首度向行政院爭取明年度的公務預算"},{"start":93.937,"end":96.558,"text":"我想我們要達到2030年來把癌症死亡率降低三分之一當然要整體就是委員所說的"},{"start":122.081,"end":148.149,"text":"篩檢是一個重要的而篩檢更應該包括到都會區跟偏鄉尤其偏鄉的老人篩檢率特別的低所以我想有時候是我們有計畫但是怎麼樣把它落實那我們現在當然是為了為了讓它爭取的篩檢更有效果現在在擬定一個整體性的一個癌症篩檢的一個計畫那從幾個常見的一個癌症的篩檢我們會把它的年齡"},{"start":150.061,"end":150.181,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":165.29,"end":183.133,"text":"那這個民進黨執政第9年了癌有等待癌症新藥基金已經818天那從癌篩的缺口都已經31億的情況之下癌症的新藥基金就要100億那錢從哪裡來?要從衛福部的公務預算編列嗎?還是有其他的預算可以支援?"},{"start":185.13,"end":206.505,"text":"這個癌症百億基金我們因為依照需求當然今年我們是用健保的一個暫時支付的一個制度來給付看起來對病人是有幫助但是還沒有正式得到那個肯定的那個部分那明年的明年就會我們擴展到60億這個就是政府的公務預算那第三年我們希望達到100億"},{"start":207.606,"end":233.746,"text":"所以說這個部長您所提的我的稿子就已經寫了不管是24.9億、60億到第三年的100億那在公務預算的話它沒有辦法這樣子隨意喊價那這個財政紀律的部分有當初就遵守相關的一個規範嘛難道財政紀律法那就明定成立基金需要國庫撥補以外的財源所以說癌症的基金它這不可能100億都只有有公務預算支出"},{"start":234.326,"end":260.635,"text":"那在目前未來的相關的籌措的財源還有哪些的作為?癌症防治基金?那癌症防治基金我們現在當然是在演繹怎麼樣設這個基金是最符合我們能夠讓癌症病人來使用包括他是不是將來有可能也可以有社會各界企業來也來幫忙"},{"start":264.497,"end":277.398,"text":"﹗"},{"start":277.918,"end":296.66,"text":"那本席就直接就教,在這個相關的堂捐、煙捐、酒捐都是健保所規定的財務來源,那煙捐已經開徵了,不屬於新的財務來源。那請教部長,衛福部未來會不會將所謂的堂捐、酒捐進行開徵,譯出在癌症基金上?"},{"start":302.924,"end":305.666,"text":"還是院長要直接回答?部長我想院長應該想要說明一下癌症新藥的"},{"start":320.509,"end":344.877,"text":"讓許多癌友能夠得到一些照顧這個是國家的政策那我們一定是在財政紀律法的規範底下去尋找如何來充實這個基金那目前因為還在這個夏天度總預算的編列過程當中我們也嘗試看哪一個財源是適合的但是委員剛剛所提到那幾項還沒有的應該再排除在這個考慮之外"},{"start":345.117,"end":360.476,"text":"所以說,糖捐、煙捐、酒捐目前是排除在外。目前其他的這兩項目前並沒有把它納入來積極的考慮。我們希望找更多適當的裁員或是接受民間的合作跟捐助。"},{"start":362.478,"end":383.478,"text":"在這裡跟院長跟部長特別的強調一下因為在不管是糖捐還是酒捐尤其是酒捐的話包括料理米酒料理酒等等都是重要的民生常使用的物品那這個只要一列入的時候它姿勢體大它牽扯的非常深甚至會帶動整個物價又變得又一波的上漲"},{"start":384.219,"end":404.936,"text":"所以說這個部分院長剛才也直接回應了不會以這個糖捐或者是酒捐來作為這個財務的來源那我想這是一個很明確的一個答案那我覺得這樣子也很好因為避免引起民怨所以說我在想這個確實是相關大家的思考上面都有考量到這個問題那回頭來那在講這個煙捐的部分"},{"start":409.119,"end":438.071,"text":"那最近我們都常常看到許多的報導都提到這個加熱菸那加熱菸在菸漢防治法他已經修正通過之後那為什麼就是這個加熱菸如果合法販售的話也可以進行合法課這個菸捐菸稅那為什麼目前來講這衛福部那還是沒有辦法把這個加熱菸的這個部分還能夠盡速讓他合法來管制那放著這龐大的稅收還不讓他課稅"},{"start":441.565,"end":467.762,"text":"報告委員我想我們衛福部尤其是國民健康署的專家小組是非常積極大概每個禮拜都在開風險評估會議但目前大概有12家有意願來申請那大概有4家有進行到某一個程度可是再來要補件的時候他們都沒有補過來所以有時候沒辦法審下去"},{"start":469.025,"end":495.555,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們都很清楚的可以把整個現在所有進度呈現給大家看那我是想說應該是要呈現就要呈現因為要讓社會各界知道其實像這種新興菸品本來就應該列入這個法的管制啦那這樣子的話對於民眾來講應該做整體的環境應該是更為健全啦尤其是在歐美許多的國家其實在這些新興菸品都有在管制在內"},{"start":496.215,"end":511.528,"text":"同樣的在剛才提到這個基金的部分還或是癌症相關的經費的來源那把這個加熱菸還能夠把它進行這個未來課稅的一個重點或是菸捐的重點我相信對於國民健康來講"},{"start":512.108,"end":528.797,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":530.476,"end":553.657,"text":"加熱鹽現在目前來講都是這個水貨商都賺走嘛那這個部分等同於都是我們國民的稅收那這樣子加熱鹽卡在健康風險評估的審查那在他們的補件他們需要請他們加快補件以及在這個程序上要如何才能夠去做加強才能夠讓這樣子的一個法制的管理上是能夠讓他確實可行"},{"start":555.189,"end":579.001,"text":"是的,我們一切一定按照依法辦理,尤其在審查的過程當中,其實這是國家大事,所以也是大家都可以注意的,我想它的過程絕對是透明、公開、而且公平給大家可以來評斷的,這個請放心。至於其他水源那個部分可能就是要依法辦理這樣子。"},{"start":579.711,"end":595.766,"text":"沒錯那本期還是在跟院長跟部長還特別也希望說在這個國民健康是非常的重要也是癌症的這個部分他的經費來源同樣重要那在包括目前來講是剛才也院長也承諾了"},{"start":596.186,"end":596.426,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":620.708,"end":620.728,"text":"謝謝委員長"},{"start":636.189,"end":661.307,"text":"那延續著剛才癌症新藥以外那另外一個用藥問題也為全國男性同胞請命在這個所謂的公費的HPV疫苗接種的決策2018年12月推動國中女生公費HPV疫苗接種非常棒的決策那這個部分也確實HPV的病毒是導致女性子宮頸癌的元兇還包括是男性口炎癌的隱藏殺手那相關的數據我這邊就不再強調"},{"start":663.268,"end":677.942,"text":"那我想直接就教於院長或部長那如何在什麼時間點或是現在是不是可以開始進行這個我國的國中兩性的全面的公費接種HPV疫苗。"},{"start":679.823,"end":707.46,"text":"報告委員我想謝謝委員關心這個HPV對男生女生以及對男生的在癌症預防方面的一個好處那我想國建署也爭取到一邊的機會應該是明年就可以在國中同時在男女同時來開打好那再次謝謝部長那院長這部分您也要補充一下嗎因為70個國家都實施了我國明年也會實施院長你要特別"},{"start":708.704,"end":720.88,"text":"謝謝委員同樣的問題部長在先前的資訊當中也答覆過時程就成如部長所說的那我們再朝這個時間再做好準備OK好謝謝那接著我就再問勞工議題有請勞動部長那魏部長謝謝勞動部長"},{"start":726.209,"end":753.148,"text":"那直接延續剛才有提到我邊講因為時間有限在熱傷害的議題那這個過去我也是勞工背景出身的那這個熱傷害的議題那如果說國建署他是積極呼籲保持涼爽多喝白開水提高警覺這個對勞工來講他並沒有實際意義那像剛才有提到在李坤哲偉有提到在質詢的時候八月會做一個法制的檢討"},{"start":754.449,"end":778.582,"text":"我們也很遺憾的看到在昨天的時候新北的板橋工人也是一樣熱中暑熱酸衰竭倒臥陰架搶救不治那同樣許多的法規法令的修正那如果說是用生命來換回那我講實在這都是悲劇那我想接著直接請教一下部長對於高溫假或是高溫今天您的看法"},{"start":779.697,"end":802.587,"text":"委員我們目前就是這整個國際上市還沒有所謂高溫價這個高溫價在中東已經實施了在伊拉克伊朗都有實施因為全球暖化的情況之下許多的國家老族陸續有高溫價喔是是委員他們那個是就是沙漠國家嗎對沙漠國家這是因應全球暖化大家都陸續都在演繹"},{"start":802.947,"end":826.839,"text":"可是我們現在會研究因應這個高溫的這個避難勞工他該有的這個避難的設備或設施的立功我直接跟部長回應今天勞工或是僱主他們除了避難避難都已經是後端了那在事前來講的話其實在高溫的尤其是現在暖化的極端汽油之下其實本來高溫的這種情況本來就非常的嚴重那高溫價的議題跟高溫今天的議題討論本來也不是新議題了"},{"start":829.56,"end":844.771,"text":"那我在想部長這個部分是不是可以拿出比較具體的比較正向的態度來看待高溫價或高溫津貼?我們現在其實也正在研究針對高溫的問題是不是有可能有一種避難的彈性的工作的安排"},{"start":846.332,"end":866.171,"text":"這個可能是會針對比較有實際的效用因為其實你牽涉到放假勞資雙方都有不同的意見這樣子那麼我們如果要讓勞工真正能夠盡快的能夠在這個事情上面能夠有他的這個享受立即的這樣子的一個"},{"start":870.164,"end":881.258,"text":"我直接講說避難的這個部分或是相關的設施措施這個部分他不是用人民上面來去做一個就是後面的一個補強或回應"},{"start":882.179,"end":900.42,"text":"指標不是說8月要檢討一個整體法制的時候不是說就只有檢討避難措施或是雇主責任而是在這個相關的不管是假的部分以及包括它津貼的部分都應該一併的納入考量納入檢討來講不是說多少溫度以上多少的達到標準的話才能夠進行這個高溫加或高溫津貼應該在"},{"start":902.122,"end":916.981,"text":"考量這個法制的修正來講就應該要整體而不是只局限於說避難那本席還是請這個部長還有報告院長針對高溫價高溫津貼在8月的討論的時候納入總統的提示中院長這樣是否可以"},{"start":918.49,"end":919.551,"text":"好,那這個部分我會提出相關的法案。謝謝。"},{"start":947.657,"end":956.846,"text":"好,謝謝游委員楊耀委員之質詢以書面提案"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}