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樓302會議室出席委員黃委員國昌等13人"},{"start":1935.971,"end":1957.776,"text":"列席委員脈委員玉珍等9人．列席官員．法務部常務次長黃謀信等人．主席中召集委員嘉賓報告事項一、宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定二、邀請法務部金融建築管理委員會．經濟部、數位發展部內政部．列席就洗錢防治法規範下洗錢防治對象在新興通路之風險評估進行專題報告．並備質詢"},{"start":1960.757,"end":1988.31,"text":"本次會有委員黃國昌等二人提出質詢、委員莊瑞雄等二人提出書面質詢決定一報告完畢二委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關警訴送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢請問各位就上次的會議事錄有遺漏或錯誤沒有沒有的話,一事錄確定好,緊接著介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員"},{"start":1990.502,"end":2018.533,"text":"首先介紹這場委員黃國昌委員、謝鴻介委員、鍾嘉斌召委那接著我們介紹應要列席的官員第一位是法院秘書長、吳三龍秘書長法務部部長、鄭明謙部長長賜、黃謀信長賜內政部部長因為部長請假另有要務那這次由現在是由政務次長董建宏次長"},{"start":2021.021,"end":2046.639,"text":"行政院公共工程委員會計畫處處長徐肇熙財政部推動處參司市長李健賢其餘未介紹人員請參議員名單並列入公報紀錄現在到場的是羅志強委員本次議程邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院工程委員會"},{"start":2048.38,"end":2049.501,"text":"首先我們先請司法院吳秘書長報告"},{"start":2074.136,"end":2094.535,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位先生、各位女士本人僅代表司法院就本日的專題盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善僅報告如下"},{"start":2097.099,"end":2107.528,"text":"那麼關於這個議題那因為公私部門合作營運的模式還有範圍廣泛那麼難以一概而論那麼就以"},{"start":2112.845,"end":2133.569,"text":"這個公私部門協力的主要規範的架構促進民間參與公共建設法來做說明按照促參法第三條的規定促參法適用的公共建設範圍廣泛幾環交通、環保、能源、農業、醫療、衛生、文教、修器"},{"start":2141.932,"end":2164.153,"text":"以及市政開發等措施等等都包括在裡面按照促參法第8條第一項各款的規定民間參與公共建設的只要方式大概分成六種我們在書面也有提出就是六種"},{"start":2165.543,"end":2181.096,"text":"那麼這個BOT的模式還有無償BOT的模式有償BOT的模式還有ROT的模式以及這個OT的模式、BOO的模式"},{"start":2182.717,"end":2193.967,"text":"這些規定在促參法的第8條的第一項第一款到第6款有把這些情形都有做規定"},{"start":2197.54,"end":2225.531,"text":"那麼關於這個促參法相關爭議的究竟主要分成兩項來說明第一項是有關最優申請人徵嫌的決定那麼主管機關依照促參法第44條規定評定最優申請人在司法署務上是認為這種徵嫌的決定的性質為行政處分行政處分"},{"start":2226.531,"end":2239.541,"text":"那麼是由可以參考這個最高行政法院那麼111年度上至第913、104年度判至第102號、99年度判至第1024號判決的的議址所以有關這個徵選決定的爭議應該循這個行政徵送的程序來救濟"},{"start":2252.621,"end":2256.824,"text":"第二項是關於投資企業主管機關與最優申請人簽訂的投資企業如有禮業的爭議應該依個案判斷"},{"start":2268.658,"end":2294.571,"text":"是屬於行政企業或司法企業而分別向民事法院或行政法院來請求救濟並且依企業的內容還有相關法規規定來解決個案的正義關於所提到企業的內容例如像促參法第11條所規定關於公共建設的規劃、興建、營運、移轉"},{"start":2298.035,"end":2323.306,"text":"或爭議處理、仲裁條款與企業變更、終止等事項都屬於企業內容所以就依企業內容還有相關法規的規定來解決個案的爭議因為時間關係以上報告進行指教謝謝好 謝謝秘書長下一位我們請法務部部長、政部長報告"},{"start":2331.894,"end":2345.444,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生、大家早安那今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會就盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議的探究與改善那代表本部列席進行專題報告並備質詢"},{"start":2347.566,"end":2376.004,"text":"那我國最主要的公私合作營運領域在引進民間參與國家公共建設藉由民間投資興建公共建設及其經營理念改善公共服務品質那擴大公共建設依促參法第八條第一項規定有六種的類舉的一個方式另外還有如果還有其他經主管機關合併的方式也都是屬於那一種的一個營運模式"},{"start":2377.865,"end":2397.974,"text":"參與建設的申請人認為,主辦機關於申請及審核程序中所為的行為或決定違反促參法或相關法令致損害其權利或利益,得以期限內以書面向主辦機關提出異議,異議人對異議的處理結果不符。"},{"start":2399.096,"end":2416.867,"text":"或者主辦機關屆期部委處理者應以書面向主管機關組成的出參申訴審議會來提出申訴這是出參法第47條這樣的一個規定那另外除了投資契約另有約定外"},{"start":2417.987,"end":2435.315,"text":"如果有禮業爭議．得有投資契約明定組成的協調會來協調．或向主管機關組成的禮業爭議．調解會來申請調解．調解不成．協調不成．或者調解不成立．得經雙合意提付仲裁"},{"start":2436.479,"end":2450.924,"text":"那最後就是公私部門合作營運模式的法制如果與時俱進提升公共服務水準加速社會經濟發展法務部尊重相關主管機關的權責以上報告謝謝部長下一位我們請內政部董事長報告"},{"start":2466.637,"end":2492.981,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生大家好那關於大院司法及法制委員會邀請本部部長等相關來就盤點公私部門營運合作模式之法制爭議之探討與改善進行專題報告本部部長應另有要功所以向本會請假也感謝本會的同意那以下就涉及本部業務的部分予以說明進行指教"},{"start":2494.382,"end":2517.377,"text":"本部相關有關於出餐相關的事宜是由本部國土管理署作為公共建設的窗口那辦理相關的幕僚作業也籌辦本部有關於出餐案的考察及訪視那目前本部關於財政部推動出餐司所列管的案件大概有以下七件包括墾丁國家公園大灣有氣區A棟及B棟的營運轉理案"},{"start":2520.439,"end":2534.193,"text":"陽明山國家公園青山油氣區的整建營運案墾丁國家公園公有停車場營運轉移轉案部落灣三月村度假小屋委託民間經營管理續約案墾丁國家公園南灣油氣區A區營運轉移案"},{"start":2536.455,"end":2559.047,"text":"肯定國家公園小灣區遊客服務區暨潛訊中心營運移轉案肯定國家公園後壁湖遊艇港營運轉移案本部每年辦理一次的出餐訪視於最近兩年在111年辦理肯定國家公園南灣油氣區A區營運轉移案以及肯定國家公園公有停車場營運轉移案的訪視112年則辦理陽明山國家公園青山油氣區營建整理轉移案"},{"start":2565.59,"end":2581.799,"text":"都按照相關的合約辦理那與訪視之後相關的訪視意見以及所提的那個管理的一些改善措施也都登議城鎮部的管考系統那本部所辦理的出張案件基本上是由多數都是由國家公園署以及各國家公園署來辦理"},{"start":2583.34,"end":2583.48,"text":"提醒大院討論"},{"start":2615.603,"end":2618.848,"text":"理事長報告"},{"start":2630.049,"end":2653.85,"text":"主席、各位委員先進大家好那今天各委員會安排相關部會就盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探討與改善進行專題報告本人僅奉部長之命就涉及財政部業務部分做簡要的說明一、促進民間參與公共建設法的執行概況"},{"start":2655.714,"end":2677.729,"text":"自91年統計至113年第二季．出攤案件一共有1661件．投資金額達到1兆38億元．涵蓋的公共服務範圍．包括食衣住行、娛樂等生活領域．縱觀近三年．包括今年上半年．我們的簽約的這個金額持續成長．"},{"start":2681.547,"end":2697.657,"text":"2.有關出差案件的爭議處理機制出差案件的爭議的態樣包括發生於簽約前的申請審核階段以及簽約後的履約階段以下就這兩個階段的處理規定做一個說明"},{"start":2700.81,"end":2720.798,"text":"1.申請審核階段之異議申訴依據《出產法》47條明定參與公共建設之申請人認為主辦機關於申請及審核程序所為之行為或決定有違反《出產法》及有關法令致損及其權益或利益者,得於同法"},{"start":2721.658,"end":2739.665,"text":"各款規定期限內以書面向主辦機關提起異議同法第三項也規定一人對於異議處理結果如果不符或主辦機關藉其不為處理者應於一定期限內以書面向本部促參申訴會提起申訴"},{"start":2742.706,"end":2748.493,"text":"本部依據上述授權也定有民間參與公共建設申請及審核程序的爭議處理規則．同時在102年也設置了申訴審議會來專責此項業務．截至目前為止一共有收建34件"},{"start":2763.116,"end":2780.984,"text":"2.在履約管理階段的爭議調解。出產法48條之一有明定,履約上的爭議得由雙方組成協調會來協調,或向本部履約爭議調解會來申請調解。協調不成或調解不成,得經主辦機關與民間機構來合議提付仲裁。"},{"start":2785.97,"end":2806.365,"text":"一、在個案成立協調會的部分,依據《促參法》48條之一,雙方協調會應於投資契約簽訂次日起90日內來組成,投資契約並應明定協調會組成的方式與運作機制。二、本部組成履約爭議調解會,"},{"start":2808.466,"end":2824.716,"text":"如果主辦機關因為發生爭議經協商未果．得向本部申請調解那出單法48條之一．也來授權本部．有訂有出地民間參與公務建設案件．履約爭議調解會的組織準則．還有調解收費辦法以及調解規則等三個執法"},{"start":2832.661,"end":2844.046,"text":"本部也在112年的7月來成立履約爭議調解會．截至目前為止有9件的促參案來提出調解的申請"},{"start":2845.509,"end":2868.344,"text":"最後三節與有關出差案件的異議申訴處理結果及履約的爭議那本部分別有申訴審議會跟履約爭議調解會來協助那其能透過相關的機制來快速解決各階段的一些異議或爭議以提高民間參與公共建設投資的一個誘因以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝那"},{"start":2875.459,"end":2877.262,"text":"中嘉賓召委有那個會議詢問"},{"start":2896.348,"end":2924.336,"text":"謝謝主席感謝昭偉今天安排盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善那對這個題目呢本席過去在上屆前幾個會期都在財政委員會那對這個題目的理解我是擔心所有的認知是不是有誤不過謝謝我們主席安排這個議程那也請了我們剛剛包括了財政部、內政部跟工程會的說明"},{"start":2924.916,"end":2952.319,"text":"那讓我們理解到大概這裡面所談的公私部門合作營運方式也介紹了VOT三種、VOO、VTO、OT、VRT還有這樣的一個模式那我比較想請教的是說因為今天涉及到我們後續的質詢因為這是一個很大的範疇那想請教主席說那我們剛剛聽到的幾位機關代表他們在說明的是指涉這些相關不同模式底下的爭議處置"},{"start":2953.88,"end":2976.265,"text":"那就我所了解啦,這個部分大概會辦理這些項目的呢,就剛剛內政部的機關代表所說的,大概是在特定的幾個營建署,或者是國家公營管理處。那麼工程會的部分是處於糾紛調解,但是財政部因為請到了促參司,那促參司過去就是我們所謂的公私部門合作,一個相當政府部門重要的推動單位。"},{"start":2978.274,"end":3005.052,"text":"我覺得他們來這裡可能等本席待會的詢問可以來問他們但我比較好奇的是那今天我們請司法院跟法務部是要回答或者是來備詢什麼樣的範疇因為沒有具體的個案所以想請教一下主席今天安排這個題目的內容我們待會質詢的範圍跟質詢的對象以及他們所要負責回應的內容大概所指為何還是給一個比較清楚的方向不然我們待會的質詢會離題"},{"start":3007.293,"end":3022.046,"text":"因為最近對於立法院的質詢制度有多所外界有些批評那我希望能夠落實就今天召委所安排的主題來進行質詢跟討論那也希望能夠獲至列席的機關代表比較明確的回應是不是可以請教一下主席"},{"start":3023.757,"end":3052.776,"text":"沒有 就像你剛剛說的就是現在有BOT、BTO、ROT、OT或BOO甚至各種其他金主管機關合定的合作項目本來就很多了嘛那所有的糾紛 現在發生糾紛一定就是由法務部或司法院在管理嘛對不對 我說假設啦或是有一些因此引發的一些問題嘛所以我們今天請他來只是說請他就報告看他對於這些東西有沒有合作營運模式的一些法制爭議他們有什麼想法就這樣"},{"start":3053.336,"end":3072.944,"text":"那當然啦今天任何會議的召開一定是有委員像我這邊希望說可以召開這樣的會議嘛那既然有委員提出來那有大家有這個興趣那我們當然就就這個部分去救教這些行政部門啊我想如果張召偉如果說待會你對行政部門有什麼意見的話有什麼問題的話"},{"start":3074.404,"end":3101.301,"text":"也歡迎能夠跟他們提出問題謝謝主席的答覆,非常感謝我的理解大概就是說,如果是就於這些公私合作營運模式因為它是一個民事契約,政府作為一方所發生的爭議大概都會無外乎在內政部啦、工程會啦或者是促參司他們來處理那如果是個案的部分涉及到屬於包括有因為這樣公私模式引延生的民事或形式上的訴訟、爭議那就會由司法院或法務部來受理,大概是這個意思吧"},{"start":3103.012,"end":3122.351,"text":"我確認一下嘛不是你今天你問我會議那我就跟你說我們的想法是什麼嘛然後今天保護部或司法院來我們當然就如果偵查中的案子當然就不方便就請大家不要去就偵查中的案子去問是"},{"start":3123.413,"end":3132.954,"text":"如果說今天大家有什麼問題﹖法制面﹖通案上面有什麼意見要提出來問那就提出來問﹖至於說有沒有離題﹖"},{"start":3134.507,"end":3134.988,"text":"謝謝主席的答案"},{"start":3162.042,"end":3180.494,"text":"好 謝謝大家那我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘那非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在先請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":3189.407,"end":3216.543,"text":"對不起主席在開始宣達以前作為司法法制委員會的議員我想要程序上面先跟主席確認一些事情請主席多包涵第一個我尊重昭偉的職權我尊重昭偉的職權但我也希望昭偉能夠尊重司法法制委員會的委員司法法制委員會要怎麼運作"},{"start":3218.619,"end":3239.009,"text":"請了機關的代表來機關的代表就他所執掌的事項回答立法委員針對人民所關心的事情加以質詢這個是本院這個是本院各個委員會的常態我相信不用我說啦也不需要當立法委員"},{"start":3239.969,"end":3257.316,"text":"我們在場非常多的媒體的朋友甚至在網路上面關心立法院運作的公民大概都可以印證我剛剛所說的並沒有錯但我現在要請教主席的事情是說在剛剛會議詢問的階段在剛剛會議詢問的階段我不希望有誤會"},{"start":3263.12,"end":3290,"text":"昭偉有要限制今天個別的立委巡達會議巡達過程的主題嗎昭偉有要干預有要限制嗎沒有我剛剛已經講很清楚我說這個長久以來沒有這種事情嘛所以我剛剛不是講跟昭偉在這麼多年應該看得很清楚那個昭偉我相信你也不會等一下會議巡達到一半了以後你人跑掉剝奪其他委員的質詢權吧"},{"start":3291.63,"end":3293.491,"text":"委員長早部長早我想針對我們的前海星會董事長鄭文燦"},{"start":3312.746,"end":3330.597,"text":"貪污受賄的事情全體國民都很關心大家在質疑的是現在在照片上面右手邊的這個廖俊松送錢的被收押了左手邊第一個胡猜桃給鄭文燦當時桃園市市長跑去參加我們華亞園區"},{"start":3344.475,"end":3354.488,"text":"地主的座談會啊選前跑去參加黃金周啊遞給他一個好猜頭啊還去跟地主拔感情啊昨天我為了我們的行政院院長卓榮泰"},{"start":3361.343,"end":3390.378,"text":"我說齁 早就查到金流 也有監聽議文的貪污案為什麼 過了七年 才開始偵辦當初 參與處理的 一些檢調的人員不是被調職 就是被施壓 沒有辦法辦這個案子昨天 卓榮泰院長 他的回覆是什麼他 我覺得他的回覆還算中肯"},{"start":3391.562,"end":3415.416,"text":"社會上大家難免有相同的想法那我今天看早上的早報卓榮泰院長也說如果設有不法要全面偵辦部長贊不贊成院長所表達的這個態度我們尊重院長的一個意見尊重院長的意見所以對院長的意見你只是尊重"},{"start":3417.825,"end":3442.439,"text":"這個是報載的有這樣的因為我想這個我簡單這樣講啦涉及到貪腐的弊案我們總統賴清德不是說速貪是目前政府重要的工作部長你這樣贊成還是你也尊重賴總統的講法這個速貪是我們全力要去好很好如果速貪是我們全力要偵辦的工作的話現在社會大眾就有個問題嘛"},{"start":3443.94,"end":3453.682,"text":"這件事情鄭文燦一個人幹得來嗎?要不要全面的徹查?全面的侵犯?請教部長部長我覺得你不要大小眼啊臺南那十一槍的事情我看媒體"},{"start":3470.302,"end":3487.787,"text":"你震怒啊 下令啊 徹查嚴辦啊奇怪了 怎麼遇到民進黨的大官貪污講話就這麼保守 尊重桃園地檢署從法務部的立場 要不要徹查嚴辦往上偵辦 有沒有底線這份證據到哪裡 我們就好 我請教部長這是我 把整個時間軸全部整理出來"},{"start":3500.916,"end":3529.485,"text":"2017年9月的時候收了錢收了錢以後鄭文燦很認真收錢是有辦事的馬上親自主持會議親自主持會議做了什麼事來我再跟部長講一下提供貼心的服務山坡地解編我來處理最大的地主那個寺廟我也來出面處理第三個最重要的我要跟行政院爭取"},{"start":3530.424,"end":3552.667,"text":"你們這邊的這個農地啊我要爭取核定為國家重大建設目的是什麼這文章還很貼心的交代這裡面9.12公頃記得要納入記得要納入這個會議資料不是我偽造變造的我等一下質詢完我會提供給所有的媒體朋友參考"},{"start":3553.846,"end":3578.161,"text":"收了錢以後有沒有辦事有辦事很冷靜的但問題是什麼這個事情鄭文燦一個人辦得出來嗎要跟我們的國家爭取納入啊欸這個很重要啊要整個國家壯大建設啊以後要變更地木的時候才會好變更嘛結果我們這位送錢的人喔處理完了鄭文燦以後處理誰啊"},{"start":3580.582,"end":3602.663,"text":"馬上跟總統府陳情總統府陳情完了以後來請部長看清楚這也不是偽造變造有蓋印章的時任總統府的秘書長吳釗燮馬上下條子峻松理事長會見峻松理事長是誰就現在被收押的廖峻松峻松理事長會見你12月4號次總統府函集復見"},{"start":3605.629,"end":3612.461,"text":"我看完了以後我已經交代什麼我交代行政院去做了這個是2027年12月12號總統府秘書長他的總統府用簽"},{"start":3619.239,"end":3637.452,"text":"那總統府也沒有騙這位廖俊松啊馬上交代下去啊交代下去給誰行政院秘書長啊行政院秘書長速度很快啊12月14號的時候馬上交代給行政院秘書長秘書長卓榮泰的章啊蓋在下面"},{"start":3638.732,"end":3663.479,"text":"拿到了卓榮泰的章了以後啊這位廖峻松啊馬上遞廖峻松12月19號押的日期啊遞給誰遞給鄭市長說市長我們要爭取把他納入國家重大建設我去找了總統府總統府也交代了行政院行政院的秘書長卓榮泰也回函了我跟你回報"},{"start":3664.781,"end":3694.116,"text":"下面還要親自的簽名啊欸 鎮市長這些事情我都做了在台灣啊為什麼很多年輕人痛恨權貴啊有權有勢的人有關係好辦事什麼叫有關係好辦事他們跟一般的公民不一樣啊找完了總統找完了行政院行政院交代下去來看一下經濟部內政部馬上就核准火速核准啊"},{"start":3696.031,"end":3723.228,"text":"2017年年底處理完了總統府跟行政院以後經濟部、內政部馬上核准沒有問題這個地方很重要我們馬上依照都市計畫法27條第一項第三款的規定配合國家經濟建設嘛都市計畫法27條第一項第三款這就是要件嘛我想今天內政部的代表在這邊應該也很清楚嘛誰配合"},{"start":3724.557,"end":3725.338,"text":"2019年4月我手上這一本"},{"start":3747.989,"end":3771.128,"text":"2019年4月申請的機關是誰桃園市政府提給內政部的計畫桃園市政府提給內政部什麼計畫來請部長仔細看左手邊的圖阿是搞了好久2014年以前搞了好久搞不動的他為什麼搞不動你要把農業區變成特定專用區哇這個姿勢體大還有寺廟"},{"start":3776.531,"end":3803.029,"text":"還要簽帳知識體大沒有關係啊我們的鄭文燦市長都出面大家處理好啊處理好了最大的地主他也來處理中央他也來處理非常的賣命啊非常的賣命啊台灣社會為什麼跟人家詬病有關係就沒關係啊這個廖俊松關係很好啊除了找鄭文燦送他五百萬"},{"start":3805.123,"end":3831.095,"text":"還找上我們中央政府來右手邊來再請部長注意看因為我們是法律人講話要有憑有據馬上右手邊不僅是那個9.12公頃9.12公頃連旁邊更大的全部都劃進來一開始是9公頃後來胃口越來越大9公頃不夠啦我們要幾公頃我們要50公頃"},{"start":3832.768,"end":3857.378,"text":"五十公頃才夠看九公頃算什麼啊結果咧 來看一下這個是桃園市政府提出來的計畫五十公頃的農地變什麼第二產業專用區啊第五種住宅區啊哇點石成金啊本來在那邊沒有辦法開發沒有辦法用的地"},{"start":3859.69,"end":3887.877,"text":"有權有勢的人廖俊松一出面從地方到中央一條龍服務啊一條龍服務啊變更成什麼來看一下農業區變更成第二種產業用具第五種住宅區鄭文燦點石成金啊非常的厲害啊非常的厲害啊我就覺得很奇怪這些事情這些東西"},{"start":3889.503,"end":3914.084,"text":"這些事情這些東西檢調不知道嗎?檢調不知道嗎?還是檢調知道了?沒有辦法辦!為什麼沒有辦法辦?兩個人就巴結阿事情發生的時候鄭文燦、邱台山出任法務部部長的時候本來是鄭文燦的副市長阿給他最大的祝福阿"},{"start":3915.4,"end":3929.217,"text":"結果呢我們的邱泰山跟那個時候桃園地檢署的檢察長這個是我2019年在立法院追的案子我最痛恨司法關說法務部部長幹過法務部部長的人敢去關說司法"},{"start":3930.666,"end":3952.661,"text":"結果那時候邱泰山雖然一下子下台但是什麼轉身一過我們的蔡政府又重用出任陸委會的主委另外一個叫彭坤業兩個人在大車輪日本料理吃日本料理施壓幫富商逃漏稅針對外界所質疑的當初為什麼沒有辦法辦約談也沒有辦法約談"},{"start":3956.653,"end":3966.898,"text":"有沒有人洩密這麼慘怎麼知道那些監聽議員匆匆忙忙趕快把錢還回去法務部這邊開始調查了沒有我想這個是有關你案情的一個部分桃園地檢署都會一併來瞭解處理真的嗎桃園地檢署都會一併瞭解處理從2017年瞭解到2024年2017年瞭解到2024年"},{"start":3984.386,"end":4003.618,"text":"作為我們法務部的大家長阿對於我們的檢調辦案辦得這麼辛苦面臨到這麼大的壓力部長要不要給他們打打氣說不要害怕任何權貴部長當你的靠山向上分辦不管牽涉到誰辦到底部長"},{"start":4004.761,"end":4019.446,"text":"有沒有這樣的氣魄本來檢察官辦案就是證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡因為我剛好我們司法法制委員會有個受害人叫吳宗憲召委他當過檢察官檢察官是不是辦案想辦到哪裡就辦到哪裡還是辦一辦"},{"start":4021.827,"end":4050.226,"text":"拜不下去了可能下一棒吳宗憲委員上來質詢的時候你有更多阿好的經驗可以跟部長交流因為剛剛部長告訴全體國人的是說檢察官要辦沒有壓力啦要辦哪裡都可以但我對這件事情部長你說的理想我很希望在台灣社會成真您說的理想我很希望在台灣社會成真我很希望台灣社會有一天我們的政府"},{"start":4051.414,"end":4068.372,"text":"我們的法務部部長夠親民、夠擔當跟我們全體的基層檢察官跟全體的基層調查員講掃除貪賭不法部長給你最大的靠山不管辦到誰誰敢施壓我部長第一個跳出來我希望部長有這個肩膀"},{"start":4070.074,"end":4095.626,"text":"我想部長的意思是說他以後絕對會挺啦那以前的部長挺不挺我們心裡都很清楚啦但是部長剛剛跟我們講他以後就會挺基層檢察官辦案那不受政治干預嘛對不對部長我相信你一定會挺將來所有的檢察官、調查官、廉政官好好的辦這些政治人物的案子我想你一定會挺下去不會像我們當年那樣子嘛"},{"start":4099.748,"end":4119.817,"text":"你剛不是跟黃國昌委員這樣說嗎?我相信你絕對是這樣子的人啦那我們也都非常的期待部長,剛你講的如果是真的,那我就簡單問一個事嘛你講的如果是真的,怎麼會出現邱派山跟彭坤業在大車輪日本料理,密商完了又回去施壓基層檢察官的事這件事你不會沒聽說吧?"},{"start":4122.702,"end":4144.488,"text":"社會鬧得這麼大你不會沒聽說吧基層檢察官受不了了才在檢察官論壇爆發嘛怎麼會沒有施壓沒有施壓這個是什麼是我們做夢夢到的嗎千真萬確的事情啊我希望這件事情喔部長不要只是消極的這個討厭地檢署討厭地檢署檢察官獨立辦案我絕對尊重但是當初誰在阻擾檢察官辦案"},{"start":4150.491,"end":4171.565,"text":"誰在阻擾檢察官辦案為什麼那些要辦的調查員不是自動請調還是被請調要不然就是被清算作為法務部的大家長我給部長的建議是要去了解要不然你剛剛所想的那個夢想不會實現謝謝"},{"start":4209.96,"end":4211.561,"text":"主席我請內部長麻煩部長"},{"start":4222.321,"end":4242.19,"text":"部長、教授辛苦先給你按一個讚不管是古案新版或是西案外版最好不談沒版這案件為什麼很嚴重呢?因為這跟羅總統有關係所以我在這裡很堅定羅昌德總統"},{"start":4248.755,"end":4272.883,"text":"他說他要打擊黑金、對抗黑金、對抗貪污保庇我那一天、上星期二在總結社會上跟党員說因為不是你的業務啦,所以你沒在現場啦我說如果過去北京的高雄高鐵跟党營台內閣是沒關係啦但是如果在現在的內閣裡面,你如果沒辦,就變成保庇"},{"start":4278.219,"end":4291.004,"text":"這對一個法務部長的簽名來說是很嚴重所以修昇本席在這裡先給你按一個讚就是說輕重有什麼剛才在說鄧文成這個案件沒辦不行這個案件修正那一陣修正那一日就對了大陸聖敵總統在台南市要起來做行政委員會的時候"},{"start":4306.187,"end":4330.393,"text":"他剛才在一個拜訪他就說他做行政移動後要改觀有缺啦欠水欠電欠土地因為很多台商火流需要很多土地我投行的水火流順便空他要創造很多土地所以你若是沒有辦法清拯會變成當機時的熱情中移動是不是比較容易有狡詐作為這是依照他的情形"},{"start":4336.192,"end":4351.161,"text":"所落去、延伸出來的一個開發案所以本席在這裡針對這個案件是把你們牽扯了也把老總統牽扯了但是會很辛苦啦也會有很多壓力啦你要擋住了啦你若沒有讓這個檢察官闢國做他們的課稅 坦白說這九位他會像氣球一樣 給整個這樣小風雨"},{"start":4367.157,"end":4384.031,"text":"這樣就昏迫社會在傾聽你不然我也要在這心中跟你說說司法打擊黑金打擊犯罪但是不能勝為政敵打壓的工夫這點也很重要變成政敵打壓的工夫這樣下去"},{"start":4392.725,"end":4408.193,"text":"會讓北省新北京對司法的信賴感再度來釋放這點在這裡給你 傾聽 也給你提醒我現在要請教你一個問題一關於四月二三 我們這個大法官編發匯讀私刑的辯論 照你說是七月二三就要裁判 有跟你們同意嗎"},{"start":4422.082,"end":4424.324,"text":"沒有通知沒有通知就沒有答案"},{"start":4450.569,"end":4475.149,"text":"三個月來七月二月就夠了啊我們的秘書長有什麼動作沒機會輸這樣這台法官私刑算判三個月來若沒判啊三萬若九月二月就判啊好沒關係好有保紀人沒收到這個通緝來你針對到這個破國的結果你們有做推演嗎"},{"start":4480.523,"end":4496.553,"text":"我們一定要對整個判決的一個的結果,因為我們對判決怎麼樣我們不清楚你會有推演嘛,對不對?各種的判決是危險、不危險、否則是部分危險,你都有因應之稱嗎?"},{"start":4498.733,"end":4510.459,"text":"這個我們一定會做一個起早的一個因應但是這個我們因為這個我們要隨著一個是一個來做一個股如果說選舉選舉這個C型是合憲的如果這樣依舊有一個C型的規定37個C型份的"},{"start":4517.628,"end":4521.609,"text":"這部份我們還會照依照我們執行、實行的相關的一個的規定,我們來做一個檢視。"},{"start":4535.373,"end":4564.466,"text":"不會怎麼挑選這個執行的對象這是個案的一個這是個案沒有啊執行的對象這個執行因為我們這個有一個一套的一個很縝密的一個規定因為你要看就是他的他是不是還可以繼續救濟嘛他如果說有有還有在一個一個申請一個救濟或者一個一個身體有一個已經沒有了嘛但我剛才說了這裡他們的案子都沒有了其實是說他是不是有信心重礙嘛"},{"start":4566.499,"end":4569.242,"text":"你要怎麼走啦?因為這個權益是你的啊!權益你的嘛!對不對?你總是要有一個...37歲要先長大一下啊!你要有一個大...欸這社會基台很多耶!"},{"start":4586.655,"end":4607,"text":"這個我們有頒布一個那個執行死刑規則跟審核死刑案件的執行所以要點你沒有一些規定我們會用這個規定來做一個審核你知不知道大法官在這次我不知道你有派人去辯論但是辯論那時候不是你做保證嘛你知不知道他辯論的規定裡面他把那個私刑判決的定數是不是要經濟辯護"},{"start":4614.665,"end":4630.913,"text":"移籍到原屬辯論．到評議一帝．還有包括他是不是針對是信心重礙．有去來跟法施行這部份的．做辯論的重點在這方面．你覺得有這件事情嗎"},{"start":4635.451,"end":4643.656,"text":"委員好,因為這個有列入這個辯論的內容但是那個比較不是重點是所在啦好不好就有關於身心障礙我們的答案是那個是個案審查好沒關係啦,我要問你,你先說,你等一下"},{"start":4664.864,"end":4688.875,"text":"所以大法官就對了他有可能認定施行的制度是違憲啦那這裡是說有可能認定施行的制度是合憲啦 都有可能啦但是呢目前這37個施行犯的審理來得到處大概都沒有正式鑑定啦目前啦 現況啦"},{"start":4693.311,"end":4699.016,"text":"這次是說他在第三次選舉時沒有聘任就輸了這三十幾個你這樣也不可以輸辯論用這三項總要給你雙個說這樣危險啦會這樣嗎?"},{"start":4712.405,"end":4733.48,"text":"這個我沒辦法做預報你請你答因為你以前那不是沒有你沒他更了解不過這個是因為會不會宣佈違憲並不是我們現在可以預見的那有沒有當時出庭陳述意見跟這一件應該是沒什麼關係再來如果台灣官員選擇私刑是危險的其實他政格的定數不完畢"},{"start":4734.701,"end":4741.63,"text":"來認為是違憲：這樣目前這37個私刑犯是不是可以拿去回鄉上所要求重新審理這部分我請那個...沒關係這診檢上的"},{"start":4753.804,"end":4780.28,"text":"各位報告,如果是假設性的問題,如果是這種狀況之下,因為這個案子他申請是在我們憲法輸入法實行之前,所以按照我們憲法輸入法901條規定,他有一個特別的救急程序,就是假總長得申請這個...得提起負擔上訴嘛,對不對,好來。阿如果這樣才是私刑犯齁,他在判決確定之後,他繼續,我們繼續把他記下嘛,關掉了嘛。"},{"start":4781.479,"end":4781.839,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":4805.7,"end":4832.499,"text":"有啦他收容程序,羈押,羈押有羈押的程序羞庸啦,羞庸可以多久啦羞庸可以羞庸多久啦沒有羞庸嗎?沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦"},{"start":4833.579,"end":4853.782,"text":"那是羈押,那是羈押,最長期的那是羈押啊這裡的人都管小規五檔了嘛,對不對?這裡的人都管小規五檔了嘛,是不是這樣啊?剛剛委員提的事,圖書長法是在講這個羈押成績的最長期我之前問創部長的時候,我有跟他說啊,卡蘇納酸更危險啦,施行完整有可能會崩出來啦"},{"start":4855.403,"end":4869.211,"text":"很有可能會放出來當然還有我們本會的委員說很可能啦那件事是說沒違法而已 暗是判沒罪啦 對不對所以這些人若是放出來 我這就是覺得這很嚴重啦不一定會放出來啦若是私刑違憲啦 這些人違法要放出來沒有啦"},{"start":4883.85,"end":4906.49,"text":"應該還是在收容的一個程序吧?還收容?繼續收容?收容就五年而已啊!這個人就超過五年啊!那個收容是沒有期限,那個是剛才講是妥適審判完那個羈押的一個最長的期限。我告訴你,因為他現在發揮要重新判官嘛!就表示他還沒判多點嘛,是為這個撤銷羈押嘛!對不對?是不是這樣?反而他是不是要把這個被告釋放啊?"},{"start":4912.858,"end":4914.659,"text":"他變做比革娘呢?處長這樣才會人心事都超過五年了啦剛剛講的那個你講的妥恕手段法他其實是在講羈押的最長期限制的問題所以你確定不會綁?不會綁?市長啦有他現這三個七個都不會綁?"},{"start":4944.69,"end":4973.113,"text":"你不跟我說?會受訪嗎?沒有你跟我說嗎?這很嚴重啦,我跟你們說我是覺得這台法官吃飯卡中風的啦我希望他在基因裡面才有清楚在基因裡面才沒有清楚社會的面對這個問題"},{"start":4975.632,"end":4988.679,"text":"這些人是要放出來的,沒有對我講的頭痛,不是不可能的,因為大法官他的臉頸就已經看我們都不一樣,他說也不用看客戶的民意,法務部要怎麼面對這個事情就對了"},{"start":5000.205,"end":5023.783,"text":"您這次派去辯論的,在辯論的時候,有沒有跟大法官提倡?你如果跟提倡日記院頂頭的主委啊,你不能當作他們都很厲害嗎?當作他們都會想很多嗎?不可能的,這是有可能放出來的,不對嗎?索賀一下啦,鳳凰伊米蓮啦"},{"start":5026.035,"end":5055.498,"text":"我們共同這因為這出來時高難低變成這個社會這樣就在你們的身上還是你要了解之後跟一個書面分析一下好不好這個我們就在書面跟來書面用書面來分析一下你了解我清楚這有關的這部分我們會在書面就是在施行危險的情形下"},{"start":5057.572,"end":5061.695,"text":"部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長部長"},{"start":5085.56,"end":5100.113,"text":"的那個活動所以我跟莊大兵召委兩個是非常支持法務部還有基層檢察官的所以其實我們不是說會找基層檢察官的麻煩我們真的是很希望為基層檢察官多做一點事情啦我也好"},{"start":5102.766,"end":5130.544,"text":"那個戰國時候那個韓非子說奉法者強則國強這也是法務部這次的閱歷上面所引用的公義閱歷上面所引用的所以我一直覺得奉法者強則國強奉法者弱則國弱這是韓非子他所說的一句話那我真的覺得部長這可以替基層的檢察官捍衛千萬不要讓外面的任何力量來介入檢察官辦案就像就像"},{"start":5131.758,"end":5152.623,"text":"部裡面也不應該逼檢察官把扣案的證物發還這是不應該的當事人可以申請發還但絕對不應該由法務部來下令要求檢察官把扣案證物發還我不是說這一次的個案話說到這裡就好謝謝部長那我們下一位請鍾嘉賓召委"},{"start":5165.164,"end":5181.692,"text":"主席我還是先一個會議詢問那您剛剛在我第一次會議詢問的時候您說今天安排這個專報是因為有本委員會委員請你安排這個主題所以你安排了這個主題那我發現您雖然是本屆財新陸立法院你也對於我們委員會裡面委員"},{"start":5185.314,"end":5212.993,"text":"詢問質詢的自由度跟自主性都很大那您覺得從剛剛我也拜聽了機關代表的說明也聽了前面兩位委員的質詢請教主席你覺得你原來安排這個題目的專報有沒有符合剛剛之前那位委員對您請求希望安排的內容中召委有沒有每個委員他的發言我們尊重他的發言我瞭解啊多尊重啊那中召委如果你有興趣你去看一下歷次我們的會議的直播"},{"start":5214.195,"end":5241.925,"text":"跟會議無關然後整天在喊國會的擴權什麼抗中保台是誰所以我們不要在這邊討論這個問題有興趣我們私下我們兩個不是因為您剛剛可能有一些跟法務部長的可能是私下的對話您公開講可能我覺得如果按照您剛剛的詢問您覺得您過去幫檢察官有被施壓或許今天專報題目又改為如何促進本國司法檢察官獨立辦案免於施壓的專報這樣不是更好嗎"},{"start":5242.745,"end":5270.006,"text":"我哪一句話說我被施壓?所以中召委...剛剛...中召委我剛剛還特別講一句齁我在為全國的檢察官講話那我也說了一句我剛郭昌委員講話我也說了一句我說以前怎麼樣我不知道但是我相信部長不會我也非常期待部長我剛講了如果你覺得不是你會聽聽看我剛說的我尊重您的表達就是說您說過去你也不知道包括你本人有沒有被"},{"start":5270.926,"end":5293.375,"text":"但是我跟你講啦我記憶力沒有那麼差啦那我過去的事情我想講不想講這是我的權利任何人沒有權利逼我說啦那我只是說在這邊我相信你跟我我們兩個都參加過漸新減改的會議我們兩個都是支持檢察官的我只希望說我們就是挺基層的檢察官就這樣而已所以我很支持說今天的專報如果是這個題目就更好啦不過你這個題目我很喜歡因為我過去在財政會多年啊"},{"start":5298.517,"end":5316.404,"text":"這個題目非常適合在財政委員會來關心這樣的一個題目好 那接下來我就要邀請我們的內政部的董事長、工程會的徐處長以及財政部的李司長我們就今天專報的主題來就教雖然這個場景可能比較像在財政委員會好 謝謝"},{"start":5324.144,"end":5351.609,"text":"那個次長好、次長好、處長好來,我們今天來關心的這所謂的公私模式那我也覺得很好奇今天的這個題目要怎麼來談其實我們在發現次長這個你很熟悉嘛這是我們大學經濟學原理供給曲線跟需求曲線我的標題怎麼說,我的標題說我覺得目前我們國家對於用融資及租稅的手段要控制房市的價格"},{"start":5352.529,"end":5381.368,"text":"但是根本要用公共的建設的增加供應的建設增加供給來滿足需求我來看我們現在我們來看看原來這個黑色的是我們民眾對於房地產住屋的需求曲線這是供給曲線那麼我們的需求曲線是這個D需求曲線價格越高需求就被壓制價格越低數量就越多這個D是這個需求曲線目前的供給曲線是S"},{"start":5382.869,"end":5402.51,"text":"目前這個P的價格我們認為太高了所以政府希望能夠把這個價格壓低但當價格壓低的時候它是P2它是透過房地合一稅還有一個避所期以至於供給曲線它變成怎麼樣供給變少了供給變少的結果結果是什麼"},{"start":5403.564,"end":5431.617,"text":"是不是當S變成S2的時候價格就更高了是不是這樣子你同不同意所以目前我們用融資我們用租稅的手段包括房地合一稅包括閉鎖期避免房市炒作短期間內抑制了高單價物件的飆漲但是呢長期來看至少目前它就造成供給的減少造成需要租屋的民眾他更要花更高的價格買到更少的房子是不是這樣子同不同意"},{"start":5433.493,"end":5445.82,"text":"主席、委員感謝委員提問原則上住宅不一定符合我們一般供給需求的狀態因為住宅供給的過程有新建期的狀態"},{"start":5448.081,"end":5476.129,"text":"那所以我們基本上新清安基本上還是幫助了許多年輕人減輕他目前融資的負擔是不是對但是我們也希望說在房價上面要有所平益所以我們希望說透過平均地權條例或者房地合一稅等等我們降低高殭價的一些炒作那我們希望讓年輕人可以透過一些比較合理的方式來運營他的房子因為內政部主管住宅啦但是後面的問題在我們市長了市長"},{"start":5478.697,"end":5493.233,"text":"那是不是如果說我們今天變成是S1曲線,這是供給曲線,這個供給曲線呢增加了供給量,增加供給量之後價格會下降,那個可以滿足的需求量就更大,是不是這樣子?變成S2,S1是不是這樣子?"},{"start":5495.595,"end":5512.762,"text":"所以要增加供給嗎?報告委員按照理論上是這樣按照理論上是這樣所以前面說的我們不否定政府的一些政策的確控制高房價高物件的飆漲跟炒作是有效但長期來看還是要增加供給才能讓一般的年輕人買得到房子是不是這樣子?好往下看"},{"start":5513.422,"end":5533.57,"text":"那現在呢我們要有一個就問市長了齁因為他地上全宅我又不就多多介紹地上全宅土地是國家的興建之後他在地上全的期限內這個純粹的租屋是可以交易的市長是不是這樣子他跟社宅是不是不太一樣包委員這部分的業務因為不是我OK那我們就問市長是"},{"start":5536.621,"end":5562.842,"text":"是這樣沒錯吧這個地上權財跟社財社財是用租賃的不能轉售但是地上權財沒有土地它不擁有土地它是土地上的建物它擁有它的所有權一定年限的所有權可以交易嘛 是不是新加坡是不是這樣子地上權是可以交易的是不是新加坡的長屋就是這樣的一個地上權財主屋是這樣邏輯那主屋我們來看一下地上權財的缺點是什麼它不能繼承"},{"start":5563.502,"end":5589.905,"text":"因為時間到他就被收回了所以一般來講我們現在國內沒有繼承考量的戶數包括我們看到15歲以上未婚人口婚前有自用住宅的未婚人口比例我們這樣算一算其實推估國內沒有繼承需要的住屋需求大概有高達超過500萬戶往下看所以說如果說沒有繼承考量的部分民眾會偏好地上全宅"},{"start":5592.159,"end":5615.61,"text":"因為價格便宜嘛不用含土地成本報告委員我們基本上對於相關土地的住宅的需求我們會討論各種方式來協助這個社會的需要但是我們要觀察這個社會的需求那目前內政部所主導的政策基本上我們還是希望透過出租的方式包括我們的直接興建包括我們的包租代管"},{"start":5615.93,"end":5616.15,"text":"新建地下"},{"start":5632.657,"end":5651.522,"text":"地上全的住宅我們來看一看假設一棟房子地上15樓地下4樓1、2樓地上的可以做店鋪地下4樓可以做車位這個部分很適合來作為新建者他不把它賣掉把它用來做營利使用但是上面的3樓到15樓可以用地上全的方式來出售請問市長你覺得這樣的地上全宅未來是不是能夠透過地下的車位跟店面"},{"start":5662.104,"end":5685.322,"text":"來回收他的新建成本我想這個基本上我們會再進行研議那這些相關的議題比較複雜啦所以我們會基於本以提供國人合理安全的住宅我們會去做一些相關的思考好往下看那我們來看一下新青安的目前呢合帶了五萬七千多戶啊撥出的貸款額度高達四千兩百多億利率的補貼是0.5%0.5%每年的支出要二十億"},{"start":5689.147,"end":5708.423,"text":"如果說我們今天用地上全宅來提高這個房屋的供給不是用一個利息補貼的方式讓民眾需要的年輕人去市面上購買已經新建好的宅我們來看一下它會有什麼結果往下看所以如果政府釋出地上全宅那麼能不能也能夠滿足部分對社會住宅的需求?次長你覺得呢?"},{"start":5709.296,"end":5730.503,"text":"我們會對所有可能的方式我們都會進行研議我們的目的就如同委員講的我們要使著住者有齊屋讓年輕人負擔得起好我們來看一下其實剛剛那個圖往下看就這個圖再往下看我們去射算一下啦如果把剛才那個地下4層樓地上15層樓他設定地下車位跟店鋪以不動產正確方式來經營的話"},{"start":5733.404,"end":5733.584,"text":"主席"},{"start":5751.345,"end":5768.676,"text":"以剛剛我舉的這個例子地上全宅目前以財政部持有的共有土地如果選擇一部分除了蓋社宅之外也來興辦這樣子的一個地上全宅您覺得可不可以提高我們對於民眾尤其是年輕人他需要的住屋的需求"},{"start":5770.99,"end":5786.648,"text":"報告委員目前呢財政部的國產署的確有在辦理相關有關地上全住宅的一些標案有在標了是不是有在辦理但實際的情形呢我沒有辦法來那後半段那如果以剛剛的例子為例未來在畜餐的方式"},{"start":5787.611,"end":5806.267,"text":"以政府來興辦底下的這有營利能力的車位也好、店鋪也好他來做這樣的不動產、證券化的方式是不是可以來透過民間的資金來幫助政府也不用用公務員的方式就可以用基金的方式來興辦地上全宅?您覺得有沒有這個可能?"},{"start":5807.213,"end":5829.801,"text":"報告委員以出產法裡面所規範的公共建設是將社會住宅納為公共建設的其中一個類別那有沒有包括地上全宅這部分其實就沒有涉及地上全的問題因為社會住宅本身它的用地就是國有地我知道社會住宅地上全宅會不會未來納入社會住宅的一種類型"},{"start":5833.558,"end":5849.703,"text":"社會住宅我們都說用租的啦,地上權財是賣的啦所以這部分可能要再討論一下,因為一個是用標誅設定地上權來做的,一個是用出餐法來做的那出餐法未來也可能把地上權財納入到出餐的範圍,可能嗎?"},{"start":5851.592,"end":5867.127,"text":"我們可以來討論看看那如果用不動產證券方式來籌募資金你覺得可行嗎?實際上我們也跟金管會一直在討論這一塊目前的投信投顧法也是希望來推動用REITs用REITs的方式來處理是沒有錯謝謝來請教次長"},{"start":5869.485,"end":5886.599,"text":"那我知道次長你們在內政部是主管住屋的需求今天我們在談的這個題目呢怎麼樣透過公私合力的一個合作模式來滿足我們除了除了由政府出面來興建之外我們也可以引薦民間的力量來滿足人民的需求是不是這樣"},{"start":5887.599,"end":5912.636,"text":"那你覺得剛剛我所舉的這個例子你願不願意拿回去評估把地上全宅也並同社宅納入我們未來政府協助民間獲取租屋的一種模式跟委員報告基本上社宅的政策還是主要還是以三大項為主就是說我們直接興建報租代管跟租金補貼我們希望透過租金補貼方式先協助年輕人那直接興建這是一個項目嗎"},{"start":5913.797,"end":5934.607,"text":"那至於委員所提到的這個那個就是說地上全宅的部分我們會來做進一步的研擬因為剛才財政部也表示說這是一個有可能在進行的方式那我們來思考一下就是說這樣的方式能不能在一定程度上增加供給量透過增加供給量的方式給予大家更多的選擇"},{"start":5935.287,"end":5961.408,"text":"那你知不知此未來類似政府來新辦地上全財類似他需要的資金融資的方式也支持未來金管會將不動產證券化REIT的方式把這樣的一個地上全財也納入到這個公建的範圍你知不知此這個跟部長跟委員報告就是說這個部分我們需要再做研議討論因為REIT是真的涉及到比較廣泛的事情那他有盈利的問題"},{"start":5962.728,"end":5985.203,"text":"那市長呢你覺得未來如果在出餐的部分我們把這樣內政部把這樣的一個住屋的供給的模式類似像社會住宅的地上全台也納入來作為政府公建出餐的一部分你會不會支持我們很樂觀其成能夠來加速這個興建好那市長那就拜託你雖然今天是司法法制委員會我也不曉得今天為什麼在司法法制委員會討論這個題目"},{"start":5986.264,"end":6011.116,"text":"但是我如果在財政委員會這個題目呢我就很理直氣壯請內政部可不可以雖然今天在司法法委員會你承諾政府來出土地新建地上全宅及地上全宅的車位、店面以不動產證據的方式開放公私合作營運的可行性很具體喔講的方法都很具體可不可以做一個評估交給本席好,我們內政部來研究評估那再向委員做出租命報告,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝三位"},{"start":6015.264,"end":6016.024,"text":"我們先休息一分鐘"},{"start":6032.54,"end":6058.794,"text":"我會在那邊請請我會衝著你接下來衝到我那邊來找你後來只能待兩分鐘只要我問你兩分鐘就只有我問你兩分鐘我也只能待兩分鐘過去就過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去過去"},{"start":6064.787,"end":6075.691,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6090.413,"end":6108.128,"text":"那那個因為部長人有一點不舒服那我們就我想要先請部長回去休息那接下來我們就是由長賜來代理部長下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝昭偉 邀請我們內政部我們董次長"},{"start":6119.639,"end":6121.039,"text":"麻煩市長市長幾個問題來請教不敢這個最近整個太平洋高壓這個是太強了台灣就像一顆番薯一樣我看我們沒有吹冷氣真的是不行的天氣熱在室內自然就會去開冷氣我從2022年的時候我多次針對這整個租屋主的電費的部分"},{"start":6147.786,"end":6157.275,"text":"來向我們內政部還有台電經濟部提出質詢後來我們內政部也在整個租屋的租賃定型化契約應記載跟不得記載事項裡面有去訂定每度的電費不得收取超過電費所定當月台電當月電價最高的級距的每度金額但是"},{"start":6169.266,"end":6178.87,"text":"我們看到很多房東他現在還是會用不超過夏季電費的金額一度比如說五塊、六塊去超收叫做變相在賺這個價差那後來我要求台電就在這個帳單上加注同期的平均金額我也一直在呼籲我們內政部就在這個定型化契約裡面應該去記載來保障租客的一個繳交實際的電費的一個權益那上個月底的時候我有看到內政部宣布說"},{"start":6198.658,"end":6214.929,"text":"租屋電費到7月中旬要上路這個部分要上路那新制的方向是怎麼樣那第二個是如果房東他還是不配合那租客有什麼樣的一個管道來提供給他們做一個協助請次長"},{"start":6215.669,"end":6232.623,"text":"好,謝謝委員垂詢那有關於那個電費的部分我們在新的定型化企業裡面經過行政院審核通過之後我們已經在禮拜一7月8號我們對外公告那公告這過程裡面如果大家沒有任何的疑議我們會在7月15號上路"},{"start":6233.644,"end":6258.96,"text":"在上路的同時我們就會把相關的懶人包還有新型的定型化契約都放進去新型定型化契約裡面就如同委員所垂詢的我們會把電價的需求狀況我們就明定在裡面那房客跟房東在訂約的時候他的每度的電價還有平均單價就是要依照台電所公布的這些相關的範疇裡面去制定而不得超過如果超過了我們會依據小寶法的規範"},{"start":6260.601,"end":6264.002,"text":"還有請我們國庫署今天副署長也有到場我另外一個問題我就延續剛剛其他委員的一個問題來請教兩位就是說"},{"start":6282.881,"end":6300.092,"text":"我們現在政府整個清安的一個政策他其實就是想讓政府的美意就讓年輕人可以買得起房子那現在我們公股銀行總共撥貸40萬2千戶我請教兩位小不小的大約知道這個金額有多大大約"},{"start":6306.025,"end":6325.378,"text":"報告委員您指的是目前為止累積波帶的金額嗎?對就是如果是40多萬戶的話波帶的金額大概是1.9兆1.9兆這個其實是一個很高的數字1.9兆其實我相信最主要這樣的一個目的就是政府要讓年輕人買得起房子那從去年2023年房屋買賣移轉的動數30.6萬棟是4年來的算新低"},{"start":6335.284,"end":6361.404,"text":"算新低但這個數字裡面其實是暗藏玄機從2023年的下半年一轉比較起來跟比上半年增加的約21%那為什麼會在下半年增加兩位就很清楚了嘛就是我們政府推出了這個慶安的一個政策他同時在今年的五月份的房屋交易動數達到兩萬六千多棟是近十年的新高"},{"start":6362.845,"end":6367.79,"text":"我看財政部的一個最新的一個統計就是新清安的單月撥貸的一個戶數就高達了將近9000戶就8000多戶那平均每戶撥貸金額來到768萬元那剛剛副署長談到的就是說公庫銀行總共撥貸的40萬2000戶裡面撥貸的總金額來到1.8兆"},{"start":6385.669,"end":6389.37,"text":"那同時今年5月交易動勢這2萬6千棟10年來的新高那數據也呈現得很明顯就整個新安的一個政策新清安的一個政策讓房屋市場交易熱絡了起來熱絡不是壞事喔熱絡本身倒不反對喔但是呢對這些新清安政策的人似乎大家都是以自助為目的"},{"start":6412.618,"end":6417.364,"text":"那這也其實也是證明了就是大家買房子也變得容易了可是我必須要提出來就是說假設"},{"start":6420.407,"end":6444.41,"text":"我一個中古屋啊我今天開價兩千萬那如果我投資客要買的話我會向下去斡旋嘛一定會是這樣子嘛我有一定的一個利潤嘛那可是呢最高可能我認為說我這個投資客我認為一千九我至少要賺個一百萬那超過了他就選擇這個比例就太少了就不買了但同樣如果是兩千萬年輕人我們有新清安政策出來以後"},{"start":6445.353,"end":6446.894,"text":"對於整個政策影響整體的方式跟內政部這邊你們有什麼看法?"},{"start":6475.323,"end":6490.391,"text":"謝謝委員槌詢那跟委員報告有關於房市的問題那麼本部的立場一向是就是說我們要提供足夠的住宅讓那個年輕人能夠買得起所以在那個會議裡面我們就是提出說相關的貸款"},{"start":6491.391,"end":6491.611,"text":"我相信"},{"start":6519.858,"end":6534.48,"text":"大多數人認為這個政策是對的啦政策當然就是對的啦但是我們也很擔心就是說因為這個新金安的政策讓這個漲幅趨緩了皇室又去節節的一個飆高我們擔心的是這個尤其這個銀行不是在發錢欸"},{"start":6535.601,"end":6546.79,"text":"本金要還對不對所以我的意思就是說我希望我們內政部跟財政部要特別去留意尤其是在利用這個新青安的一個轉租或人頭戶的一個違規借款戶你到了7月5號你盤點出來超風險的案件大約是1000戶那你這1000戶裡面主要是高機率是人頭戶的借款戶或者以及確定違規的借款戶我說想進一步來請教副署長就是說"},{"start":6561.141,"end":6566.344,"text":"有什麼樣的態樣或是行為才會被列入這疑似違規或者人頭戶?是,謝謝委員垂詢那我這邊報告就是說新青安施行到現在那就誠如剛剛委員提到的其實青安的目的是要協助無自由住宅的民眾能夠購屋成家"},{"start":6584.215,"end":6601.48,"text":"那這個其實是利益很良善的一個政策那至於就是說最近可能大家會在討論說有可能有一些是人頭戶或者是有一些是申請了清安之後再去轉租的那這個部分我們現在已經也著手在處理了就是說我們會請各個函庫在受理的時候除了要落實他的這個"},{"start":6607.202,"end":6609.984,"text":"貸款人相關的收支的狀況都是在貸錢的時候必須要納入一個核貸時候的考量另外就是要強化貸後的管理包含貸後相關資金用途的積查"},{"start":6626.556,"end":6653.064,"text":"那再來就是說我們從6月27號之後有要求就是必須要做一個自住的一個切結書那另外就是有現代一次的這樣子的一個方式那這些努力其實都是希望就是回到這個政策的初衷就是讓這個沒有自有住宅的民眾能夠自住然後來申請這樣子的貸款那"},{"start":6653.784,"end":6675.654,"text":"我最主要是要提出提醒啦你像比如說啊你說屬於比較高的一個風險的你說第三人去繳交這個房貸其中比如說第三人有可能就是父母啊有可能是兄弟姊妹啊那這一些可能提出證明都很容易就不會被列入下一階段的高風險的案件但是有一部分高風險提出的解釋認為說我的兄弟姊妹幫忙的啦或是我的未婚啦"},{"start":6679.355,"end":6679.415,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6700.046,"end":6714.86,"text":"可是呢他如果是多銀行呢我分別在不同的銀行啊你們你們這個各銀行之間的一個個資到底有沒有互通那這類案件我請問那個次長或者是副署長這些案件你們怎麼去處理"},{"start":6716.732,"end":6716.912,"text":"這個政策齁"},{"start":6744.494,"end":6744.514,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":6775.538,"end":6803.796,"text":"好 謝謝那下一位我們請羅志強委員那待會在羅志強委員詢答完畢後我們休息5分鐘有請法務部、內政部、財政部麻煩法務部、內政部、財政部我也好"},{"start":6805.511,"end":6818.439,"text":"現在請教黃次長部長身體還好吧身體不舒服先離開請他多多照顧身體我想請教一下那就請教次長"},{"start":6819.727,"end":6839.923,"text":"昨天我在總質詢的時候我有肯定我們政部長說上任後這個封鄉7年鄭文燦所涉及的弊案檢方終於有行動了那但是我還是要請教次長為何發生在2017年的這個土地開發弊案拖了7年才辦"},{"start":6841.816,"end":6859.465,"text":"跟委員報告,他這個案子如果,我也是去報宅啦,他其實是7年來他有一些偵辦的歷程,不是說7年後才突然偵辦好,來,我來看看齁,你說的齁,來看陶議員,你知道陶議員的地方法院第一次裁定鄭文燦交保你知道他怎麼講嗎?"},{"start":6861.308,"end":6876.198,"text":"他說本案案發時間距今已長達7年相關監聽譯文收證照片已詳如卷內所示任務羈押之必要所以換言之他覺得證據很夠了啦也不用再去羈押他去取證了啦"},{"start":6877.595,"end":6893.173,"text":"結果這個案子在法院認為這樣已經很夠的案子就在法務部就在檢察官那邊躺了7年我想請問你監聽議員收證照片早就有了那過去7年有沒有人在包庇押案"},{"start":6895.063,"end":6908.528,"text":"各位報告,這個個案上我沒有辦法回答這個問題,個案上的問題你當然不知道啊,對你不知道啊外界有很多懷疑是不是吃案包庇押案嘛,這你應該有看到報導嘛外界有懷疑,不是你啦,我講外界啦"},{"start":6909.304,"end":6931.552,"text":"外界有在質疑,但是也請委員給外界要相信甲斑的偵辦哥我相信你,我也相信鄭明謙,因為中午他辦了但是你叫外界要相信,抱歉我沒辦法相信嘛我舉幾個例子跟你就教一下,我怎麼相信啊你知道這個鄭文燦的這個所謂的土地弊案發生在哪一任部長的任內,被發現了?哪一任?這應該答得出來吧"},{"start":6937.062,"end":6953.325,"text":"因為七年前他可能有橫跨部長交接的時間哪個部長嘛講出來嘛客觀上他我們前任部長是蔡部長再前任是邱部長就邱泰山嘛邱泰山之前是當鄭文燦的什麼職位副市長啊那邱泰山你知道他這個從政最光輝亮眼的司法政績是什麼可以告訴大家"},{"start":6966.462,"end":6982.294,"text":"你知道他政績是什麼嗎他最有功勳對國家貢獻最大一件事情就是他跟這個陶檢的檢察長對不對彭坤業去施壓檢察官這是被認證的他因此下台還記不記得這件事情他那時候那個國安會執委因此下台"},{"start":6995.459,"end":7019.25,"text":"後來檢察院彈劾是不成立的不成立他下台民進黨認證然後馬上高山這個陸委會主委我要告訴我們次長不是說今天我不信任檢察官我們很信任檢察官啊就像我們信任我們的吳宗憲、昭緯一樣檢察官很辛苦啊"},{"start":7020.387,"end":7037.573,"text":"可是今天就有一些把手伸進檢查體系裡面去押案去施案的一些行政首長啊今天為什麼今天會質疑說7年前的案子拖到現在當時部長邱泰山你信不信任他你相信他嗎"},{"start":7042.034,"end":7069.419,"text":"我幫你回答你不能回答你不是他啦對不對至少我不相信他我再講第二件事情為什麼對檢察官這個很辛苦覺得他承受很大的壓力你知道民進黨執政還有一個非常有名的施壓檢察官的例子這施壓者叫做高永成你總聽過吧目前的檢察委員對不對這位監委阿的奉公委員最大的一宗就是為了幫段宜康解套"},{"start":7070.666,"end":7087.12,"text":"去恐嚇承辦案件的檢察官這是有事實的喔議員都出來喔你覺得這樣的一個監委他去施壓檢察官你覺得檢察官辛苦不辛苦檢察官辛苦不辛苦檢察官在每個領域上工作上都很辛苦都很辛苦還遇到這一種"},{"start":7098.015,"end":7103.657,"text":"遇到這種監察委員還連任監委嘞所以今天我為什麼肯定鄭明謙我肯定賴清德阿壓了七年的案子終於辦了阿封了七年終於辦了阿一半就辦大阿哥鄭文燦阿很好阿"},{"start":7119.534,"end":7136.798,"text":"但是抱歉啊,你們這辦下去的狀況,我也稍微有點擔心啦,你擔不擔心辦案的狀況?擔不擔心?呃,不會,我相信我們的檢察官。你很相信,我相信檢察官,但是我很擔心,很擔心幾件事情,第一個,現在檢察官有沒有壓力,請問?陳辦檢察官有沒有壓力?"},{"start":7141.878,"end":7163.527,"text":"我告訴你他現在壓力很大我已經看到很多的一些綠媒在開始修理他了有沒有看到檢討他私生活開始形容他是一個多麼糟糕的人一貫的方式啊今天敢站出來辦案的檢察官就用媒體修理他啦次長你願不願意當我們成案檢察官的後盾"},{"start":7164.756,"end":7187.584,"text":"願不願意我覺得任何首長任何的行政部門的這個如果是法務部的話他當然都會是一個紀念檢察官的最後的一個支持的後盾對啊謝謝你啊願意當檢察官的後盾第二個你知道過去縣市首長被辦這個弊案齁疑似弊案涉入一些案件齁很多嘛對不對"},{"start":7188.715,"end":7214.712,"text":"在野黨的監事首長包括高鴻安、楊文科還有包括林志廟我看到檢察官辦案很認真你知道怎麼個認真法兵分18路、兵分28路、兵分38路逢小出級全部搜索查光光、扣光光你現在監聽跟跟監所產行的證據跟搜索能夠收到、扣到的直接物證不太一樣吧對不對哪一個證據強度強"},{"start":7217.93,"end":7218.731,"text":"哪一個證據強度強請問吧 市長 這你應該答得出來吧"},{"start":7225.201,"end":7250.027,"text":"各位報告那如果形式上觀察當然我意思是說強制力對物的強制力當然是你指的當然是指搜索的可能性搜集到證據的可能性比較少一點對啊只是我們但是這個個案還是不一樣當然我知道個案但一般來說就是物的強制力搜索很強啊為什麼今天丁兵分十八路收證啊所以我很擔心你們後續辦案不是沒有原因的請問鄭文燦搜索了沒有搜索了沒有"},{"start":7254.389,"end":7279.625,"text":"七年如如不動該滅的政也滅了 該篡的共也篡了啦七年漫漫長路啦 連壓都不能壓這個叫做民進黨涉案縣市首長的特權列車啊我為什麼擔心啊 我怕就算將來辦案下去你照你現在的偵辦的一個偵查的強度跟其他辦在野黨的偵查強度明顯不同嘛"},{"start":7281.209,"end":7301.512,"text":"你現在開了第一槍我很怕一件事情我跟次長講我很擔心今天這一槍打在鄭文燦身上你本來是避暗的一槍避命以為啦結果拿的是嗶嗶槍啦打他手痛一下了警告他一下說不要再想大衛了變成政治鬥爭我不希望啦你也不希望吧"},{"start":7302.984,"end":7305.145,"text":"所以今天為什麼我昨天總質詢就肯定部長原因是什麼"},{"start":7327.626,"end":7340.645,"text":"這案子當然不是部長辦的嘛 對不對也不是次長你辦的嘛可是至少你們做了一件事情嘛你們沒有押案嘛你們押案吧 對不對你們沒有押案嘛當然嘛你光這件事情救民族珍貴啦"},{"start":7342.23,"end":7367.548,"text":"但是壓力要頂住要能夠當檢察官的後盾要頂住這個壓力這才是今天我非常關切的一個問題所以要請今天我們的檢察機關真的好好加油一下然後能夠抗住這個政治的壓力也希望我們的部長跟次長能夠擔當我們的檢察官的後盾現在檢察官已經開始被清算了抱歉我看到有些報導開始對他補力但是拜託"},{"start":7371.923,"end":7373.163,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員 那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":7409.52,"end":7412.402,"text":"我現在去憲法法庭,他們11點要集合"},{"start":7710.205,"end":7736.502,"text":"好 現在繼續開會 請陳委員、俊宇進行詢答好 謝謝主席羅委員 那我們請財政部的理事長好 請財政部"},{"start":7741.993,"end":7768.297,"text":"市長早委員好我們今天要討論的是有關公私部門合作營運模式在法制上爭議的這個探究和改善那我想因為公部門和私部門合作的模式和範圍都相當的多元及廣泛所以我應該就這個我們促進民間參與公共建設法也就是這個促參法的內容來做討論那由於我們政府在"},{"start":7769.496,"end":7791.387,"text":"財政和經營能力有所極限的情況之下所以當地方有重大的公共建設還有相關的議題的時候我們都希望能夠透過民間的力量來投資參與除了減輕政府財政上的負擔也期待能夠提升建設還有營運的效能來滿足社會"},{"start":7796.129,"end":7820.461,"text":"大眾對於公共建設的需求我們從這個畜産法第3條的內容來看法規上所適用有關這個公共建設的範圍包括了交通還有這個環境、農業、醫療、文教等等幾乎涵蓋民眾的日常生活那公共利益上影響的層面甚廣所以在管控的這個措施上我想還是必須要謹慎"},{"start":7821.603,"end":7826.478,"text":"所以第一個想要請教的是財政部在促參法第5條第二項當中"},{"start":7828.083,"end":7857.357,"text":"有關這個主辦機關的這個規定那該條文的內容規範的主辦的這個機關指的是辦理這個民間參與公共建設相關業務的機關在中央當然是我們目的事業主管機關在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市則由縣市政府作為主辦的機關對於中央和地方政府之間我想就叫的是地方政府在辦理促參案的時候"},{"start":7857.737,"end":7872.904,"text":"都是自行辦理再報備給我們財政部就好了嗎還是說有什麼這個規模或類別的這個促參案需要由中央政府機關另外再來做審核"},{"start":7873.644,"end":7902.668,"text":"那這方面有沒有相關的這個規定是,謝謝委員的指教那有關那個初參法的規定財政部是擔任初參法的法令的主管機關是那各個其他的機關是依據他的任務跟需求那在中央包括各部會及所屬機關那在地方政府包括直轄市縣市政府這些都可以依據他們的公共建設的需求來辦理那並不需要說"},{"start":7903.749,"end":7904.389,"text":"大概的一個分工是這樣子"},{"start":7921.171,"end":7943.229,"text":"因為我們看到有一些促參的案件他履約的時間可能長達30年到50年當時間一拉長的情況之下產生的爭議有可能也會提升甚至也會影響到服務的品質對於這個案件履約的設定的期限也是由主辦的機關和民間機構自行決定的嗎"},{"start":7946.978,"end":7971.145,"text":"是的 一般來講我們初參法的這個採購可以分成政府來規劃完成之後來發包那另外一種是由民間自行提出規劃案之後向主辦機關來申請那不管是哪一種方式其實契約裡面都會按照我們初參法的規定每一年還有他們需要的時間來辦理所謂的履約的營運績效評定"},{"start":7973.867,"end":7993.379,"text":"這個營運績效評定就會就民間機構他們在過去一年或是固定的時間內他到底他的履約的品質如何進行一些評定那當然如果有一些瑕疵或缺失的部分當然都可以要求來改善那如果表現良好的也會有一個叫優先訂約的機制"},{"start":7995.201,"end":8008.259,"text":"讓這個民間機構來繼續的來一定時間內再來履約所以他的機制是這樣的一個安排市長我想請教一下那個履約時間的訂定的認定標準他有沒有一個基本的條件"},{"start":8009.716,"end":8034.903,"text":"基本上並沒有一定的規範但是主要的就是透過財務試算因為出差案件希望民間來投資那民間的投資他會要求有一定程度的獲利所以在每個個案的情況下他會依據他的收支的一個情況去評估他的財務的可行性也就是說民間的投報率是不是有達到"},{"start":8035.643,"end":8057.073,"text":"那在這個投報率的這個要求底下呢才會去訂定他的履約的期限好那另外一方面就是履約時間過短可能會招商困難但履約的時間設定過長的話對公部門來說也會失去調整的一個彈性進而會這個對於服務的品質也難以把關"},{"start":8057.853,"end":8086.174,"text":"那這方面我們應該要如何來權衡?是的我想履約期限的長短在契約裡面都有一定的機制在運作譬如說如果太長的這個履約期的話那在一定時間內不管是主辦機關跟民間機構都可以來提出修約那修約的程序由任一方提出之後經過雙方協調或協商之後呢就可以來修正契約的一個內容那來改善這個履約的品質"},{"start":8086.914,"end":8099.829,"text":"好 那我想在討論的這個部分就是我們剛剛所詢問的這個幾個問題那我們也看到過去這個中國就是靠著一帶一路把各國的這個基礎建設進行滲透"},{"start":8102.592,"end":8128.416,"text":"在我們促參法所規範的一個公共建設的範圍包括了這個自來水還有能源醫療甚至是這個包括還有這個鐵路還有港口的建設那其實和普羅大眾的這個民生日常都息息相關其他包括工業商業還有科技的這個設施甚至還有我們新加入的這個數位的建設那我"},{"start":8129.076,"end":8154.111,"text":"我想這些都是我們國家這個核心的技術倘若有這個促參案主辦的這個機關有意或無意的引進中資讓中國的這個勢力滲透到我們眾多的這個基礎建設核心的這個技術那我想請教就是現行的法規對於中資的部分我們是否有足夠的一個量能來管控"},{"start":8155.594,"end":8173.912,"text":"對於外國廠商要參與我們的促餐案他是被允許的但是如果是中資的部分因為他在投資的時候他的資金要進到台灣的時候會有一個資金的一個審議的一個機制是由我們經濟部這邊來進行審查所以中資要滲透進來"},{"start":8174.773,"end":8174.793,"text":"市長﹗"},{"start":8204.855,"end":8221.632,"text":"我們擔心的是假冒成外資的中資企業他有可能是中資投資到外國的廠商然後再投資到台灣的相關的建設工程那對於這方面我們有沒有一個比較好的管控的機制"},{"start":8223.68,"end":8246.942,"text":"這部分會比較複雜但是就實務上在執行因為外國的公司來投標之後他在新建期勢必要跟我們當地的廠商來合作所以並不是那麼容易就是說他可以全盤的來控制整個計畫或是他全盤的掌握所以這部分在實際運作上目前是沒有發現說有這樣的一個情況"},{"start":8247.503,"end":8266.351,"text":"好 我們也希望說這個部分我們持續去了解避免相關的這個疑慮在我們這個相關的這個促參的案件中會有這個中資的現象那另外在我們前置的修法當中也把數位建設納入第三條所規範的公共建設理"},{"start":8267.671,"end":8286.539,"text":"那這讓我們比較好奇的是因為它反映現在許多公共建設並不限於硬體建設也符合現在政府發展的數位治理更是符合各領域發展這個跨域創新所需的這個部分但是數位建設的範疇同樣是五花八門"},{"start":8287.299,"end":8305.925,"text":"那可能涵蓋到群眾的這個部分無遠弗屆我想請教就是目前我們數位建設促參案件辦理的這個成效如何那案件的數量多不多以及在辦理的這個當中我們部會機關與民間機構的合作有沒有遭遇到什麼樣的困難"},{"start":8306.624,"end":8334.529,"text":"是的 謝謝委員那在我們修法的時候把四個公共建設類別把它新增進去那包括我們的綠電還有我們的數位建設那目前數位建設還沒有新的案例但是我們也發現就是說單純的數位建設要來作為公共建設投資不管是硬體或軟體大概都會去跟其他的公共建設類別有做一個結合所以我們現在也在等著"},{"start":8334.949,"end":8349.059,"text":"看數位部或是各地方政府的這些資訊中心他們有沒有這個需求會用這種方式來做這個招商那希望民間來投資目前是沒有一個個案來採用這種方式"},{"start":8350.04,"end":8373.752,"text":"那在數位建設當中不免也會提到的就是這個資安的問題那我也想說在我們數位這個服務中所要考量的因素當然包括大數據雲端數據的內容都要有妥善的一個防護那我想再就教就是對於數位促參案在資安上的保護措施我們是否需要再有更嚴謹的一個這個規範"},{"start":8376.571,"end":8402.633,"text":"目前完全都是按照行政院他要求的這個資安的一個管控的機制不管你是公部門或是私部門都會一體適用所以未來如果數位建設出產案他的這個防範的等級還是一樣的好 那就請我們這個市長這邊我們財政部對於相關的這個規範一定要有一個比較好的一個掌握是的 是的好 以上謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":8416.476,"end":8429.408,"text":"審法會委員改書面質詢審委員博洋審委員博洋審委員博洋林委員失明請林委員失明進行詢答"},{"start":8436.857,"end":8463.927,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請財政部我們的初三師師長師長我想今天我們召委排這個題目有關這個公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議的探究與改善我想我們最近最熱門的有關我們公私部門合作所產生的一個爭議最大的"},{"start":8464.927,"end":8481.25,"text":"最近最大最熱門的議題我想大家都知道就是基隆市政府與大日公司的旅業的一個爭議這個案子一開始是大日公司市政府的停車場的OT案"},{"start":8482.071,"end":8500.139,"text":"一開始是OT案就這個停車場公共建設的OT案後來因為一樓改建二三四樓增建而延伸是否為ROT案的一個爭議那這個案子請問這個司長您是專家那您認為說民間參與公共投資為什麼會發生這種爭議"},{"start":8509.14,"end":8534.448,"text":"報告委員謝謝委員的關心那這個案子呢其實從頭到尾都是OT案並沒有改為ROT那其實在它原先的契約規範裡面是希望民間來投資經營這個地下室的停車場那一樓跟一樓頂部的這個可以作為商場使用呢它是叫做附屬事業所以這個在原來的契約裡面都有明定"},{"start":8535.228,"end":8550.619,"text":"那因為在契約裡面也明定就是甲方交付的這個資產如果乙方認為有需要改善的時候那可以提出這個改善計畫金甲方來同意這個我大概了解了其實我現在一個很好奇的點就是說"},{"start":8551.48,"end":8568.979,"text":"基隆市政府當初OT案,然後就你剛才提到的所謂的一樓商場以及二到四樓的增建,這個案子你認為是屬於附屬事業的一個,跟市府跟這個當地公司的雙方的一個契約的一個約定?"},{"start":8570.117,"end":8585.6,"text":"但是就是說當初我看市府那個當時的市府他好像猶豫說要把它改成ROT案他好像有這個意思所以我要請教你當初他們在做這個契約的一個研議的時候去做這樣一個變更的時候把ROT案"},{"start":8586.081,"end":8605.482,"text":"然後又再變更說就這個你剛才講的附屬事業的部分可以去把它變更為由他來做一個改建、增建這樣子的他們雙方又簽了一個另外的一個契約變更的一個契約當初有沒有請教過財政部相關意願在這個研議的過程中變更的過程中"},{"start":8606.242,"end":8623.239,"text":"我記得當時105年的時候曾經有來跟我們來請示說這樣子是不是適當財政部但是我們檢視的整個合約其實它並不是改成ROT案它還是在原來的契約機制裡面還是按照OT的一個規範"},{"start":8625.741,"end":8640.151,"text":"所以財政部給他的答案是說這個案子你們不認為說這個是改善OT案但是你們是不是認同說同意他就說那你可以依照這個OT案你可以就這附屬事業你們可以做另外的一個約定"},{"start":8642.252,"end":8670.398,"text":"這部分因為會是一旦簽約之後就按照契約的條文去履約基本上我們不會介入那很清楚的是在契約裡面有明定這樣的機制所以包括基隆市政府跟大日公司他們都是按照這樣的機制所以這樣做沒有違反這個初餐條例目前看起來是沒有的所以他們另外的變更契約的約定因為他在原來的契約裡面就有約定可以這樣子去執行"},{"start":8672.564,"end":8697.295,"text":"他不是變更契約的內容嗎?沒有,他沒有變更契約內容原契約就是有這樣的一個程序那我看一下法院判決的事實我想這個都是公開的內容基隆地安法院就這個案子已經有相關的判決我看判決理由第二點他認定說一、細增會議記錄及被告提出的被告就是基隆市政府提出的細增變更營運計畫書"},{"start":8699.676,"end":8723.185,"text":"逐漸原告也就是大日公司在細增105年的委託營運企業期間原申請改建東岸停車場一樓並拆除二樓原建物增建商場事經兩兆合議提升開發規模原告就是大日公司來提出規劃增建二樓到四樓商場的細增計畫書"},{"start":8725.726,"end":8744.638,"text":"也就是說從這個判決裡面看出來當時他們是已經做他們的營運計畫書已經有做變更他們要提升開發的一個規模所以在這種情況之下我們不禁想說奇怪當初如果他有請教我們財政部出差司的話那奇怪這種變更營運計畫書難道不是把原來的就是OTI已經變更為ROTI嗎"},{"start":8751.789,"end":8780.129,"text":"報告委員因為這部分的變更其實他並沒有來請跟財政部這邊請求示意但是就我剛剛有跟您報告在契約裡面他們就約定可以提出改善計畫所以他們是按照契約的條文由以方提出變更經營的這個計畫書的內容然後再去協商他經營的範圍是這個市長我的現在疑問就是這明明他就是改建跟增建現在不是改善"},{"start":8781.169,"end":8799.782,"text":"這很大規模就建築物做一個改變是的那因為他很大規模這個改變呢他改變的部分是叫做附屬事業而不是促參本身的這個主體事業停車場的部分停車場他並沒有做徵修改建的一個作業那主要是附屬事業"},{"start":8801.963,"end":8815.536,"text":"所以我現在對於復屬事業的定義聽起來我想專業的人可能一般民眾聽不懂什麼叫復屬事業那連我們學法律的人都覺得你這個復屬事業這個名詞我都聽得很奇怪明明就是說"},{"start":8817.202,"end":8817.742,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8838.755,"end":8861.208,"text":"大日公司出資來改建東岸停車場一樓及新建二樓至四樓的徵件物．徵徵件物完成後．批為商場由被告也就是西龍市政府取得所有權．且納入徵105年委託營運契約的範圍之內．仍交由原告大日公司營運．事後續約時也將支納"},{"start":8864.17,"end":8887.01,"text":"也將它列入戲徵110年後來又續約5年到期了嘛110年的委託營運契約的委託營運資產也當作他們的一個資產所以那個那個後來NET公司啊他以這個也以那個基隆市政府的名義去申請拆除執照及建造執照所以"},{"start":8887.771,"end":8912.393,"text":"他們雙方系統市政府跟大致公司很明顯的他就是為了擴大被告依促三法第八條擴大市政府依促三法第八條委託營運資產的範圍反正判決是這樣認定的因為他把整個資產已經擴大了而不是你剛才講什麼附屬事業就是把原來營運的標的他擴大了"},{"start":8913.206,"end":8942.646,"text":"原來的這個停車場這棟建物的範圍這個資產擴大把它增加它的一個範圍所以也把它納入他們的契約的裏面所以法院認定說戲徵徵建物的合意並就相關費用的負擔所有權的歸屬徵建後的用途及受託營運的人均一併詳為約定所以判決認定說這個建物的所有權是屬於基隆市政府"},{"start":8943.686,"end":8953.613,"text":"所以雙方現在產生這麼大的一個爭議那當然我想您站在主幹機關的一個立場對於這種履約的爭議啊財政部是否應該介入協調"},{"start":8955.276,"end":8956.116,"text":"所以你當時拒絕他的協調的申請"},{"start":8981.385,"end":9002.344,"text":"因為大日想要申請的是要第二次的優先訂約那優先訂約的這個核准權其實是在基隆市政府那他們當時的判斷就是他們不予同意的所以在這樣的情況下因為我們認為沒有調解上的一個實意所以我們並沒有受理這個案子"},{"start":9003.004,"end":9023.543,"text":"好 那是那個階段那現在這個階段呢 有關於履約爭議因為現在雙方在訴訟我現在比較好奇就是說奇怪 財政部為什麼就這個案子在雙方還沒有訴訟以前主動去告知你公私部門要合作嘛那為什麼你們沒有去告知基隆市政府說這個案子你們是先來我來幫你們先來調解一下"},{"start":9027.815,"end":9042.48,"text":"報告委員如果就時間序來看的話呢這個案子他第一次的7月5年跟第一次的優先定約3年在8年的履約期間其實基隆市政府跟大日並沒有什麼爭議因為他的履約績效從"},{"start":9043.94,"end":9069.386,"text":"他的分數來看都是達到優良良好的但是是在這個做資產的這個移交的部分才產生爭議那這部分因為是屬於這個私權的一個爭議那我們就比較不方便來介入因為他也進入這個司法的程序其實那個市長我的建議其實說不管是後段的履約爭議或中段或前段一開始的履約"},{"start":9071.126,"end":9090.631,"text":"禮約爭議我建議其實財政部還是要積極的介入讓這些公私合作的案子雙方都能夠很周全的完成他們整個禮約的一個的項目否則現在我們看就造成訴訟我覺得某部分我們公部門還是要發揮積極的一個的一個影響力因為法規你在解釋的啊"},{"start":9091.958,"end":9109.593,"text":"所以我是認為說你不能置身事外啦你還是要去做相關的一個有關初選法到底這個案子是屬於什麼一種情況讓雙方了解他的一個法律的相關的一個規定然後希望他們能夠達成條件嘛好的我們會來努力以上好謝謝"},{"start":9115.305,"end":9128.076,"text":"好 那個溫委員小玲她改書面質詢我們現在請葉委員元之葉委員元之葉委員元之那我們請吳委員私邀謝謝"},{"start":9138.191,"end":9150.416,"text":"我們的昭緯好像請志強委員代理那滿可惜我今天其實想跟昭緯做一些意見的交換今天我想對於本屆司法委員會"},{"start":9151.909,"end":9172.712,"text":"的很多會議也到了會期末我要表達一些我的觀察也就是作為立法委員都要自治更何況我們是在司法法制委員會政治力都不應當介入個案不應當影響司法政治力不要干預司法"},{"start":9173.669,"end":9188.284,"text":"那可能從今天上午司法法制委員會的詢答我們看得出來那都針對某些個案來進行很多未審先判或者是政治操作"},{"start":9189.71,"end":9218.035,"text":"又或者帶有要用政治力來影響司法的意圖這個會期以來這不是第一次我們看到在野黨的委員不論是從楊文科案、高洪安案到現在今天鄭文燦案都不斷的利用立法委員的尋答的時間來進行很多影響跟干預司法的作為我認為深表遺憾"},{"start":9219.195,"end":9248.158,"text":"那第二個今天專案報告我大概當立委9年了我第一次質詢我不曉得要請誰上台我也不打算請任何一個部門上台因為我認為交委排的這個案子就像我們國會擴權法案的反質詢一樣定義不清啊今天的專案報告題目到底是要講什麼"},{"start":9249.827,"end":9277.822,"text":"沒有人可以搞清楚沒有人可以清楚的知道召委排案真切的目的但是若以剛剛林思明書記長所垂詢的事項我恍然大悟又是針對某一個地方政府的個案也就是基隆市府東岸廣場的個案想要做一些政治上的操作"},{"start":9279.143,"end":9292.408,"text":"專案報告題目意義定義不明．探討之實行．探討之明來行護航之實．是這樣嗎．我不樂見．也不希望"},{"start":9293.544,"end":9318.216,"text":"好 所以我今天在這裡表示我的立場我也不會請任何一個官員上台好 下一頁就今天的主題是盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探討與改善我們讀過研究所、讀過博士班的人都知道任何一個論文的命題下面會有以什麼什麼個案為例啊"},{"start":9319.406,"end":9342.192,"text":"所以我實在不知道今天交委就這樣一個法制面他想要探討跟釐清的爭議在哪裡如果就法規面有非常清楚的促參的法規可以來依循所以這是不是一個政治命題社會是一個私設形堂呢我不知道我也希望不是好下一頁委員會的職權傻傻分不清嗎"},{"start":9347.554,"end":9370.065,"text":"立法院的相關的八個委員會的分工司法法制很清楚我們對於司法院對於法務部對於人事總處有我們督導的職權如果是要去關心促進民間參與公共建設促參法的規範的主體的機關是財政部這是促參法的明定"},{"start":9371.201,"end":9397.954,"text":"所以說如果是財政部主管的法律那可以去財政委員會來審議所以今天在司法法制委員會到底要審議了解什麼執行的爭議我也真的不了解那吳宗憲召委不在齁我沒有辦法獲得他本人的釐清好下一頁那我試著去理解如果要講促餐"},{"start":9399.13,"end":9417.547,"text":"那,促參這個91年,這90年大修之後,我們確實以新的促參法的法律授權,那在全台灣推動很多不管中央政府或地方政府的促參案件。以91年促參法大修到現在113年統計,全台灣的促參案達到1661件。"},{"start":9423.152,"end":9440.792,"text":"所吸引帶動的民間投資額達到一兆38億元這是我們努力的成果所以我們企圖的用這樣一個法律的賦權來增加政府的稅收來增加民間企業來投入"},{"start":9442.014,"end":9466.765,"text":"然後一起達到政府民間企業三贏的局面這是促餐法讓公共建設以及公共服務可以升級我這裡秀出來的是華山文創還有宜蘭傳譯中心都是我過去在教育文化領域長期會去關心的促餐的相關的案例下一頁"},{"start":9468.69,"end":9475.416,"text":"財政部在促餐法大修之後同年91年也上錄了經過獎司長在場我沒有請您上台經過獎嘛經過獎就是要肯定中央或地方政府促餐的好的時機、成績那如果以2017年經過獎的得獎名單我們來看喔"},{"start":9493.03,"end":9503.695,"text":"有臺大醫院的美食街的促餐案它是優等以梨山賓館的營運也獲得優等然後墾丁賓館的營運也獲得優等而這三個得獎的經過獎的得主都獲得續約的機會因為它是執行良好而且中間的它續約了"},{"start":9519.824,"end":9528.855,"text":"但是呢同一年一起得到金獲獎肯定的也有基隆市東岸立體停車場的這個促餐案當年2017年基隆東岸立體停車場也獲得金獲獎的肯定可是"},{"start":9539.83,"end":9551.914,"text":"其他幾個案得獎得肯定的都續約了但是這樣一個得獎的基隆市東岸立體停車場卻衍生了續約的爭議產生了產權的爭議也進入了執法的爭議非常奇怪明明是執行良好的祝餐的廠商沒有獲得續約的"},{"start":9567.478,"end":9591.306,"text":"合理在法律上他應當有的法律地位反而陷入了非常負面的續約爭議現在還在對簿公堂所以同一屆得獎的命運大不同大家可以想看看基隆市東岸立體停車場的促餐案是獲得財政部經過獎的肯定的今天被抹黑成什麼狀況下一頁"},{"start":9593.888,"end":9617.088,"text":"基隆市東岸停車場的ROT的爭議是ROT的爭議其實這是地方自治的權限啦基隆市府是大有問題當然包括它的執法爭議強行帶警察去侵入這個NET在營運中的空間所以謝國良市長現在是涉強盜罪在偵辦中"},{"start":9620.151,"end":9623.214,"text":"那續約的爭議更如同我剛剛說的他明明是一個被財政部促參評鑑優等他是加等獎結果呢Net被評為優良評鑑依原本的合約精神約廠商可以優先的續約而且Net所提出的廠商簽約的年限更長但是權利金卻比Net低很多我說的是現在謝國良另外"},{"start":9647.034,"end":9647.815,"text":"剛才前一位委員也有請教我們財政部的代表"},{"start":9676.59,"end":9678.972,"text":"其實促參的爭議處理的機制有非常清楚的法律的程序嘛我們促參48條之一"},{"start":9688.393,"end":9711.172,"text":"你的投資契約你可以走協調會去協調履約爭議嘛協調不成再提付仲裁嘛或者是蘇三四十八條之一的第二項也有很清楚的調解的過程這都是現在法律有的機制我不曉得剛剛在野黨的委員請財政部要積極介入你能介入什麼"},{"start":9712.421,"end":9712.601,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":9738.396,"end":9758.734,"text":"如果一個政策的正確會帶來地方大發展大躍進政策正確之下基隆的東岸廣場可以從過去的一個破敗的場域華麗大變身Before and after只要政策正確"},{"start":9760.526,"end":9770.725,"text":"而政權移轉接棒的人也要好好的去用心的來做對的政策"},{"start":9772.008,"end":9787.052,"text":"把一個華麗大變身好不容易讓東岸廣場成為一個市民、企業、觀光客包括基隆市府都是大家分的一個建設案現在淪為執法的爭議、產權的糾紛、司法的訴訟"},{"start":9792.814,"end":9796.355,"text":"最後一頁．既然有委員今天刻意排這個案是劍指個案那我要藉這個機會來杜絕不時的抹黑"},{"start":9813.308,"end":9825.481,"text":"有人說基隆市東岸廣場這件事情大日公司以5050萬的權利金取得東岸的經營權來批判林右昌前市長"},{"start":9826.84,"end":9846.872,"text":"我要替他澄清當年零用窗市場保底可以收到的權利金是5050萬但是謝國良跟微風簽約保底價只有2655萬誰替政府賺錢誰讓政府吃虧比一比就知道"},{"start":9848.462,"end":9873.425,"text":"國民黨在批評大日公司不可以轉租給Net事實是什麼呢在這個個案當中Net就是大日的協力商合約上清清楚楚也是合約上規範可以邀請協力的廠商合作之友不要這樣抹黑依法依合約辦事的林祐昌前市長"},{"start":9875.322,"end":9903.482,"text":"國民黨又在罵內特增加商業面積是增加獲益喔跟大家澄清增加的廣場的面積是公共空間24小時公民可以使用如同為基隆市爭取了一個大公園不是增加商場賺錢獲益的面積而是增加24小時基隆市民都可以使用的公共空間"},{"start":9905.086,"end":9929.199,"text":"不要再抹黑而這個公共空間一樓可以連接到公車站的人行大通廊二樓可以開放式廣場加上數個遮雨棚的穿廊連接三樓還有天空跑道年輕人熱愛聚集的新的場域我要結束了最後30秒謝謝志強委員增建的產權沒有登記嗎"},{"start":9930.799,"end":9952.018,"text":"我要澄清只要謝國良市長照著合約走就都不會有這些爭議但是謝國良要以強盜的行為強行來接管所以呢謝國良現在是強盜案的被告如果不要去搞這些奇奇怪怪的變更採購"},{"start":9954.728,"end":9981.144,"text":"涉及讓條件很不對等的廠商來標得這樣一個珍貴的促參成功的案例都不會有現在的產權爭議都不會有現在的執法爭議所以今天我花一些時間因為我真的是絞盡腦汁很想知道昭緯牌案到底是兼職哪一個個案後來經過釐清追查"},{"start":9982.488,"end":10006.916,"text":"原來是要講這個個案那我也就我的質詢的本務我的職責努力的就這個個案去了解也基於我的了解我必須提出清楚的說明這是我擔任立委9年以來第一次我沒有請任何的官員上台我希望未來的召委排案主題要明確議題要清晰但是"},{"start":10007.876,"end":10031.787,"text":"我還是努力的做一個專業立委應該有的準備謝謝志強委員多給我的時間謝謝辛苦了好謝謝吳世耀委員那我因為吳世耀委員對於今天的主題有意見那我可能還是要說明一下那今天我們的主題是盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善"},{"start":10032.327,"end":10048.806,"text":"那我看剛剛前面很多的委員都針對今天的主題尋答都沒有問題那官員也很認真的上來尋答所以今天要做個說明好那登記委員尋答完畢現在有陳玉珍委員再請求尋答在場如無異議接著請陳玉珍委員進行尋答時間5分鐘"},{"start":10057.22,"end":10076.179,"text":"主席想請教我換我發言你可以留下來聽一下歡迎委員 專業委員 什麼都不懂的委員來留下來聽一下連公私協力都聽不懂 委員這邊還是說明一下就是說 基本上謝謝 不知道怎麼叫公私協力留下來聽一下謝謝吳思堯委員的尊重因為本來按照議事規則基本上"},{"start":10079.322,"end":10087.164,"text":"主席我們這裡會不會提供嘔吐袋啊?司法委員會不是剛剛有人一邊講很噁心的東西一邊說不要介入個案一邊在講什麼基隆市政府的案子當場一直打臉自己我看都很想吐欸那那我想請這個我們財政部次長有出差司有來嘛對"},{"start":10112.353,"end":10138.785,"text":"法務部,因為我剛剛看到法務部的這個內容市長您好,上回在財政部有跟您請教過這一個今天的主題是公私協力就是說公私協力有什麼樣的合作營運的法制模式那因為我們的委員有一些都不了解自己的職權他說看不懂這個題目所以我想說在這裡跟您切磋一下也讓這個吳士堯委員知道立法委員的職權是什麼然後為什麼題目看不懂還可以一直在這邊罵別人"},{"start":10140.846,"end":10167.114,"text":"我們知道像公私協力我剛剛看到這個內政部的這個內政部有寫嘛內政部的報告裡頭寫出有幾種模式嘛什麼BOTR、ROTR但是我發現公私協力裡面有一個很重要的這個就是很重要一點有一個最新的一個做法叫做PPP嘛Public, Private and Partnerships 對不對我們看裡面都沒有是不是因為我們的這個財政部出現在這個推廣的方面比較沒有"},{"start":10168.451,"end":10171.413,"text":"是在111年修法的時候我們新增了九支一條那增進了這個叫做政府有償取的公共服務"},{"start":10190.402,"end":10218.514,"text":"主要的概念是除了剛剛講的BOT、BTO、OT等等我們認為說在公私協定裡面如果政府可以付費來取得服務的話這也不是一個好的方法我讓你充分講是因為我發現我們的立法委員其實不只立法委員包括很多部門裡頭的報告裡頭也沒有寫到這一點可見我覺得你們的宣導是不夠的然後立法委員連看題目也看不懂說不知道今天是要討論什麼"},{"start":10220.155,"end":10234.108,"text":"對不對,這個就要討論法制嘛,是不是比如說BOT啊、ROT啊、PPP啊這些各種,或是OT啊各種的這個法制的這種形式上到底在對我們這個政府在獎勵這個民間引進這個出差方面相關的這個的這種投資幫助這個除了政府力量以外,讓民間力量引進來有什麼好的方法"},{"start":10243.877,"end":10262.882,"text":"或者中間有什麼缺失如果可以在法制面做改善的話那民間投資的意願會比較強嘛對吧你說對吧是的對嘛沒錯嘛所以這個題目是定的很好事實上也是很有深度的只是我很遺憾是看到說第一個我們的這個相關的政府部門也不懂有一些新的這一種營運模式嘛剛剛我看到報告裡頭就寫的不詳盡那第二我就看到我們的這個相關即便是我們立法委員一邊在說他不知道今天的題目是什麼"},{"start":10272.284,"end":10272.304,"text":"來 次長"},{"start":10294.148,"end":10315.3,"text":"委員好那剛剛我又聽到委員一直在講說這個有人排這個就是故意就用個案啊什麼政治利益介入你們法務部會接受政治利益介入嗎當然不可以當然不會對不對所以這個委員這樣講事實上是對你們的沒有信心啦或是他一向認為那個法務部都會介入政治個案就是只要委員這樣執行你們就會去介入有這種事嗎"},{"start":10316.824,"end":10326.656,"text":"委員的做法我們當然都尊重但法務部的立場是絕對不尊重絕對不會嘛可是剛剛那個我們民進黨的這個這個黨防幹部公開說你們會受到政治力影響啊會嗎"},{"start":10329.336,"end":10358.434,"text":"這是委員的執行內容不是 我說他執行內容啦對 他自己思想錯誤一定要把東西壓在別人身上這個我們也是沒有辦法嘛 對不對你沒有辦法評論嘛 對不對我沒有辦法評論沒辦法評論嘛 對嘛 因為你也不能贊同嘛 是不是所以這個自己思想不正確然後一直想個案就說別人一直想個案自己心裡想說是不是他們有什麼行政力量可以介入因為心裡有這種想法才會覺得別人在問這些問題就想要介入明明我們的法務部就這麼的剛正不阿根本就不會接受政治力介入 對不對"},{"start":10359.85,"end":10382.711,"text":"本來就不應該這個 本來我們講到辦案就不應該接受這個政治對阿 然後你們本來也就不會嘛 對不對所以我們質詢關心 國會議員關心社會上所矚目的案件不管是社攤的阿 或者這一陣子很重大這個台南市這個槍擊案件造成國人全面性的恐慌阿 這個當然你們是不是應該加強的去查辦嘛 對不對"},{"start":10384.904,"end":10406,"text":"對 這個案本來就是我們 像槍擊這個案子很重大嘛 加強查辦對不對本來我們就會 本來就應該嘛 對然後我們如果這樣去問了 難道就是介入個案嗎我們說你們趕快加強查辦 哇 國人都好恐慌我好多家人住在台南 事實上都覺得很恐怖 是不是應該加強查辦這個個案發生本來講要關天職 是嘛 那我們去質詢你這樣算不算介入個案"},{"start":10407.142,"end":10428.876,"text":"因為已經沒有實體的內容了不算對嘛我們就說你們就是什麼案子什麼案子什麼案子應該是要去釐清趕快查清楚這個是國會議員的職責嘛有的國會議員不懂的職責不專業什麼ROT、BOT還有PPP什麼都不懂公司協力也不懂就上來批評別人我會覺得以後建議這個司法委員會這邊準備那個嘔吐袋啦謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":10433.712,"end":10454.2,"text":"謝謝陳玉珍委員雖然吳宗憲召委他不在因為剛剛有我們司法法制委員會的委員吳思耀委員對今天的主題有意見所以我可能還是要代替他稍微說明一下那今天的主題是盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善"},{"start":10455.44,"end":10470.513,"text":"實際上大家知道就是說基本上就是今天所有在前面質詢的委員們那針對這個主題其實都有進行官員的詢答很顯然這幾個中文字沒有人看不懂啦"},{"start":10471.273,"end":10488.158,"text":"至於說能不能論及個案剛剛我們次長也有特別回答就是說這是立法委員的職權相信相關的部門也不會因為立法委員的質詢受到影響通案是個案的累積所以你任何涉及所謂的"},{"start":10489.978,"end":10516.9,"text":"公私部門的法制爭議的部分那當然不可能不觸及個案嘛所以這有可能是還是要幫吳宗憲委員來說明一下那我們好 那一樣我們現場有那個登記發言委員均已詢答完畢那現有這個葉元之委員再請求詢答在場如無異議這接著請我們葉委員元之進行詢答時間5分鐘"},{"start":10535.629,"end":10538.256,"text":"我請那個法務部跟那個工程會我請法務部工程會"},{"start":10547.137,"end":10572.931,"text":"好部長好還有處長好我有一個問題想要請教一下我非常好奇因為上一次在經濟委員會的時候我詢問農業部長有關於超私跟量財的問題他們是透過續產會的方式去買這批雞蛋然後因為超私跟量財發現一個非常奇怪的狀況就是續產會是跟量財簽約可是卻叫"},{"start":10575.053,"end":10578.438,"text":"續產會付錢給超私那當時我就問農業部說為什麼會出現這個狀況那有沒有去督導續產會可是"},{"start":10585.737,"end":10590.52,"text":"政府不能去查所以他就完全沒有責任然後就直接移送減掉所以今天看到這個題目我也非常好奇就是說"},{"start":10605.73,"end":10619.318,"text":"實際上這個也是一個公私之間的關係嘛公跟私嘛是政府要進這批雞蛋嘛只是透過續產會去處理續產會主要錢也都是來自於政府但續產會他在採購的時候他可以直接繞過採購法"},{"start":10620.979,"end":10643.235,"text":"然後做出這麼奇怪的採購行為然後可以跟A公司簽約卻付錢給B公司然後造成了一些弊端政府完全說跟他無關這個就是減掉問題如果沒有弊案的話或是沒有司法問題的話就跟政府無關我問一下那個部長啊像這樣的一個模式在我們政府的採購是很常見的嗎"},{"start":10646.368,"end":10670.265,"text":"各位報告我是次長那委員您提的是指抄是那個個案嗎對對對這個個案因為台北地檢署他已經分幾個案子在偵辦我問模式我問模式因為我覺得這個模式很奇怪模式的話就涉及到他法務部並不是這個相關的主管機關因為我們今天不是要討論那個公司之間的採購關係那採購的主管機關並不是法務部那是哪一個機關"},{"start":10673.01,"end":10698.926,"text":"是工程會嗎?是工程會OK跟委員報告那在農業部採購雞蛋這個案子因為依照採購法第7條雞蛋是屬於生鮮農業產品不是採購法的適用範圍我知道我這個我知道但是後來他也有一些像冷鏈啊運費啊他是沒有透過採購法嘛然後後來農業部的說法就是說他不符合採購法的我們就不付錢可是實際上這個如果沒有被抓到的話他就是違反採購法"},{"start":10700.37,"end":10708.503,"text":"那我現在問的是說在政府裡面有這樣的採購行為身為採購主管機關你不覺得很奇怪嗎?這合理嗎?"},{"start":10710.102,"end":10738.584,"text":"這個部分我不太理解我的意思 我剛把那個案情都已經敘述一遍但我現在不問個案我是說現在能不能政府有一個機構這個機構呢補助另外一個法人然後由那個法人來進行政府要採購的事項結果非常的寬鬆當這個法人採購的過程當中出現問題然後那個部會可以講說這跟我沒有關係那個就是私人跟私人之間的關係然後他完全沒有督導的責任"},{"start":10739.585,"end":10764.596,"text":"那這難道不是一個規避採購法的行為嗎我跟委員報告依據採購法第4條政府機關補助法人金額達到50%以上或是達到公告金額以上的話那這個法人辦理採購是必須依據採購法的對啊可是問題是那時候農業部就說我那時候問他說那超市跟量採關係他說他沒辦法督導啊他說就送給減掉啊那行政機關在這個過程當中完全沒責任嗎"},{"start":10766.56,"end":10791.528,"text":"報告委員,在超私跟這個是屬於得標廠商跟協力廠商的事情,這個並沒有在採購法的規範範圍內,除非他有違反轉發規定。那個,處長對不對?是。處長齁,你現在一直在講法條嘛,對不對?我們現在就是講說這件事情的不合理之處嘛。那,如果說,這個法條衍生出這樣的不合理之處,我們是不是就要討論這個法條,定定的是否過於寬鬆,或是有沒有漏網之魚嘛?"},{"start":10792.196,"end":10797.741,"text":"對不對 所以我把問題講出來我相信我這樣子講大家都會覺得很奇怪對不對 農業部委託續產會花了大錢給續產會結果續產會"},{"start":10802.824,"end":10802.844,"text":"會不會?"},{"start":10825.405,"end":10845.297,"text":"會不會我講的都是事實喔不是我掰出來的喔你會不會覺得在我們現在政府機關還存在的這樣的採購行為會不會很奇怪你不敢回答就是很奇怪啦因為如果不奇怪你就會說不奇怪了那如果出現這樣的行為是不是我們現在法律訂定上面可能有一些漏洞才會造成這樣的行為有沒有好時間到了"},{"start":10853.018,"end":10878.69,"text":"那...那不然我也不為難你啦可能你也沒有...你也沒有準備啦是不是可以針對我剛剛那個問題就是事後補一份報告給我好不好委員的問題是指超市跟...就是我剛剛那個模式就是超市那個模式然後但是...但是行政機關卻沒有任何的責任然後他都說他依法他都合法的這樣子有沒有很奇怪你給我...你...你補個答案給我啦好不好是好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":10881.595,"end":10908.272,"text":"謝謝次長,謝謝處長所有委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束委員質詢時,要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會委員翁曉琳審發會所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議到此結束,現在散會,謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16088","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16088","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2df83f7170d9d56c87d6a76734f739918228aaa308df9ea37374b2592802aef9ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-10","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-10T08:31:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:53:00+08:00","duration":12117,"影片長度":"03:21:57","委員發言時間":"08:31:03 - 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楊基榮 楊次長全民防衛動員署 白潔龍 白署長總督察長 市李榮華 總督察長政務辦公室 廖建新 主任政治作戰局 陳玉琳 局長軍備局 林文祥 林局長主計局 謝祺賢 謝局長"},{"start":1993.839,"end":2018.708,"text":"軍醫局蔡建松蔡局長．戰略規劃司黃文綺黃司長．資源規劃司鄧克雄鄧司長．法律事務司沈世維沈司長．整合評估司苗慧芬苗司長．國防採購是趙雅萍主任．人事參謀次長是劉佩志劉次長．"},{"start":2022.335,"end":2031.537,"text":"情報參謀次長是謝日生、謝次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是陳文新、陳次長後勤參謀次長是陳道輝、陳次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是盧建忠、盧次長訓練參謀次長是張俊智、張次長陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長"},{"start":2051.428,"end":2069.001,"text":"海軍司令部邱俊榮參謀長．空軍司令部王德陽參謀長．後備指揮部肖淵泉參謀長．憲兵指揮部呂正芳呂參謀長．陸軍後勤指揮部劉清薰劉參謀長．"},{"start":2078.121,"end":2103.735,"text":"執通電軍指揮部陳俊良參謀長．軍事情報局第一處鄧敦仁登處長．電訊發展市政計處林政委林處長．國家中山科學研究院李士強理院長．數位發展部政務次長．薛和民薛次長．"},{"start":2106.483,"end":2132.378,"text":"數位產業署莊育智莊副組長任信建設司胡明仁副司長國家發展委員會詹方冠副主任委員國家通訊傳播委員會翁伯忠翁副主委北區監理處蘇思翰蘇副處長"},{"start":2135.459,"end":2140.642,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員陳中全副主委工程技術研究發展處郭金副處長科技辦公室主王英鈺王主任"},{"start":2160.54,"end":2174.344,"text":"本日會議邀請國防部顧立雄部長報告．國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位．DIU．後．對建軍備戰有何革新作法及未來預期成效．並備質詢．請國防部顧部長上臺報告主席各位委員先進請就"},{"start":2192.945,"end":2214.32,"text":"現代戰爭不能僅依賴傳統的武器和戰術,更需要先進的技術資源來提高作戰效能。而從科技發展的趨勢可以發現,民間科技逐漸成為科技創新的主要驅動力。國軍必須與時俱進,積極引進民間科技創新能力,有效運用。"},{"start":2215.58,"end":2240.699,"text":"整體國防資源及能量以強化國防實力確保臺海防衛的不對稱優勢今天應邀致大運委員會實施專案報告將針對本部成立國防創新小組規劃進行報告請各位委員持續支持各項國防創新事務推動接續由本部的整評師的苗惠芳司長向各位委員做報告謝謝"},{"start":2251.345,"end":2278.797,"text":"主席、各位委員先進緊就本部成立國防創新小組之概況及預期成效進行報告首先說明設立目的現代科技與作戰形態快速變化過去多由軍事科技引領商用科技的發展為近期的惡霧戰爭與以哈衝突則顯示民間新興科技在推動國防創新方面已發揮重要作用"},{"start":2280.254,"end":2299.132,"text":"為了適應戰場變化以及建立強韌嚇阻戰力本部參考美國國防創新單位（DIU（的作法與今年2月1日成立國防創新小組負責創新概念評估及引進民間成熟科技協助提升整體防衛能量接續報告國防科技的研發體系及負責單位"},{"start":2304.861,"end":2329.589,"text":"民間學術機構透過本部軍備局及國科會學研計劃委託民軍大學針對技術備變水準 執行基礎研究、應用研究及關鍵技術發展中科院中科院整合民間學研成果聚焦執行TIL-6以上系統發展以加速供應國軍先進裝備"},{"start":2332.014,"end":2339.341,"text":"令審酌國防自主及長期發展需要若民間無能力時由中科院執行關鍵技術發展。創新小組則針對民間成熟的技術與產品進行評估及引進,擴大國軍裝備獲得來源。"},{"start":2354.124,"end":2376.678,"text":"基於前述的科研體系創新小組的主要任務及作業流程包括創新概念發展創新小組將綜合敵情威脅、戰爭形態及軍民科技發展研究分析教家之戰術戰法與行動方案有效運用先進科技提升防衛力量戰力需求確認"},{"start":2378.474,"end":2405.563,"text":"結合作戰概念與實戰場景、召集聯參及軍種、研議及確認需求項目．立後續向民間公開徵集解決方案或成熟產品。民間技術產能調研．針對國內外國防產業最新發展情況進行調查研究．並與國科會、經濟部、美國DIU及印太司令部等進行交流合作．作為技術引進的基礎。"},{"start":2407.591,"end":2428.377,"text":"公開徵集與方案評估與政府採購網徵求科技解決方案包括成熟技術原型開發與成品並由專家群審查評估方案的技術狀況及軍事運用的可行性導入建案籌貨經評估符合需求方案由國軍建案程序籌貨"},{"start":2430.543,"end":2458.968,"text":"現貨產品及承受技術由需求單位執行量產建案需構改、性能提升或系統整合之裝備則由研發單位進行科研建案加速系統開發編組規劃及預算創新小組設置於整評司成員包含軍職、文職及聘僱人員區分創新作戰發展、產業調研評估、軍民科技應用三組執行各項工作"},{"start":2460.373,"end":2484.266,"text":"後續將聆聘產學研組成專家群提供諮詢及協助評估方案．確保符合科技水準與具體可行。創新小組執行資料搜集、會議召開等所需預算由整評司業務費支應納入建案並完成審查之項目由本部軍頭預算配付經立院同意後使得執行。"},{"start":2487.31,"end":2512.361,"text":"優先領域,創新小組現階段以民間具相當科技能量的無人載具﹐反制無人機系統、AI目標辨識﹐自主導航及指管輔助等產品及技術為優先聚焦項目﹐令持續關注通訊、網路站、雷射及高能微波等領域﹐逐步擴展引進的範圍。創新小組由以下三項革新作法﹐"},{"start":2513.45,"end":2525.016,"text":"善用民間新創技術及能量借對外公開徵集的方式鼓勵國內外新創企業投入國防領域為台海防衛作戰提供科技解決方案"},{"start":2526.465,"end":2547.434,"text":"加速成熟產品及技術導入．創新小組將從聯戰的角度．主動訪查瞭解部隊所需．評估成熟科技導入軍事運用的可行性與作戰效益．提出籌貨建議．協助軍種快速建立達成任務所需的能力．國防科技共同合作評估．"},{"start":2549.056,"end":2577.576,"text":"美國DIU致力於協助各民主夥伴強化防禦能力本部將積極與美方交流在美方協助下強化專業知識與人才訓練分享創新技術運用成果預期成效創新小組扮演橋樑角色將國防需求延伸到民間新創產業透過軍民合作使軍方獲得創新科技持續提升軍事作戰效能及創造不對稱優勢"},{"start":2579.861,"end":2592.26,"text":"在高科技戰爭形態下持續評估引進成熟技術或裝備以提升情監偵指揮管制與聯合打擊效能使軍隊有能力應對新形態的威脅"},{"start":2594.244,"end":2621.455,"text":"最後報告結語．國軍透過民間緊密合作．獲得先進技術．增強軍事效能．確保在快速變化的環境中．有效應對安全挑戰．本部創新小組．目前尚處於起步階段．將依規劃程序．以求實、求穩的態度推動相關工作．並聽取各方建言．以建構最適作業模式．以科技力量支持國軍防衛作戰報告完畢"},{"start":2629.68,"end":2646.799,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘．非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止．若有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右．視詢答情形進行處理．現在請羅美玲委員上台諮詢"},{"start":2657.013,"end":2659.756,"text":"謝謝主席,有請國防部顧部長是,羅遠豪"},{"start":2668.292,"end":2688.084,"text":"部長早部長我們近20年來的民間科技的這個研發創新真的是日益的強大那像過去的話很多這個創新的科技都是由國家跟軍方來做引導那可是我們從美國的例子可以發現從2015年開始他就成立了的DIU辦公室索羅民間有"},{"start":2688.824,"end":2705.015,"text":"有可能轉變為軍事使用的科技技術也獲得很大的成效目前我們國防部也參考了美軍DIU成立的國防創新小組本來本是想要請教的是我們要如何做到向上述的目標"},{"start":2706.196,"end":2727.08,"text":"我剛有聽了國防部的這個報告我一直以為這個國防創新小組他是一個整合的這個平台可是看起來他除了整合之外呢其實他自己我看了這整個這個報告其實我們其實還有這個分層負責的這個概念我想請教的就是報告裡面所提到的國防科技"},{"start":2728.04,"end":2728.2,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":2747.691,"end":2751.175,"text":"中科院負責的部分是TRL6以上的系統,所謂TRL6以上是否包含7跟9?"},{"start":2769.452,"end":2772.655,"text":"創新小組沒有研發的能量創新小組是做一個民間科技的調研之後做一個媒合跟橋樑"},{"start":2789.688,"end":2818.236,"text":"是,所以從科研的角色其實它就是屬於一個研發的部分然後創新小組它是作為這個評估跟這個引進嘛OK那我有看到之前有一份報導有一位這個金士珍他有提到了他說台灣軍工產業體系規模雖然不像美國可是也是非常的錯綜複雜所以我們是透過成立這個國防創新單位呢將擺脫過去各種國防科研跟生產案都有中科院變"},{"start":2819.036,"end":2819.336,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2849.1,"end":2871.15,"text":"創新小組,我們一直以來有一個電腦模式模擬的系統在整品室裡面根據這一個電腦模式模擬的系統,我們會綜合敵情的威脅、戰爭型態跟軍品科技的發展根據這個模擬的系統研究出一個比較好的戰術戰法跟行動方案"},{"start":2871.718,"end":2878.952,"text":"那這個比較好的這個戰術轉變行動方案之後呢就會導入就是說那你到底是需要什麼樣子的一個"},{"start":2880.922,"end":2902.603,"text":"武器來有效的來遂行國土防衛作戰那這樣子的話我們把這一個東西拿確認之後呢我們就向民間來公開徵集這個解決的方案或者是去尋找成熟的商品那麼中科院的這個部分呢當然我們沒有完全放棄他的這個有關這個他這個"},{"start":2906.877,"end":2931.148,"text":"基礎的就是說如果說你講技術備備的水準在TRL6以下的並不表示中科院會完全放棄因為我們還是要省著國防自主跟長期發展的需要民間如果沒有這樣的能力中科院還是會來做但是我們為了快速形成戰力的話當然我們根據報告就可以看得出來就是說如果民間有一定的成果的時候那麼"},{"start":2933.029,"end":2957.541,"text":"現在我們事實上如果講得白一點,像火攻的這個系統,這個事實上民間按照法律的規定,我們現在受到法律的制約,我們沒辦法在火攻的這一塊,因為受到槍到彈藥保險管制條例的一個拘束,所以還是要有那個。那另外有一些技術要做系統性的整合,那也要由中科院來做。"},{"start":2959.102,"end":2988.331,"text":"那這樣子的話能夠一方面我們根據科學的這種電腦模擬的結果或者是大家討論認為是符合我們不對稱作戰的這個狀的優勢能夠形成不對稱作戰優勢的這種相關的武器或者系統然後引進來之後就可以來強化它的話那我們就盡快的讓它快速的形成戰力所以整個的目的就是如何讓它能夠透過一個"},{"start":2989.951,"end":3017.676,"text":"整合的一個這樣子的一個整合的這個平台然後讓它縮短整個研發的一個時間不然的話常常現在研發的時間要耗費相當長的時間對於我們現在應對敵情威脅所需要的這個快速行程戰力是不是很好的所以我們希望把它來導向一個快速行程戰力這樣子的一個目標這樣"},{"start":3018.616,"end":3037.929,"text":"所以部長您簡單講就是說我們創新小組最主要的角色其實就是收了一些已經進入到作戰系統或是通過這個作戰任務的這個產品跟技術嘛對不對這是我們最主要的這個角色嘛對不對是這樣子的意思嗎他跟這個中科院這邊沒有這個重疊"},{"start":3039.89,"end":3041.012,"text":"中科院回歸研究角色,創新小組負責收穫、引進。"},{"start":3059.234,"end":3059.354,"text":"孫科研"},{"start":3077.661,"end":3104.025,"text":"他有他自主研發的這個部分也有我們國防部撥款給他研發的這個經費那所以中科院研發的這一塊我認為在DIU就是說創新小組成立之後他不但不會弱化他應該會隨著我們評估的結果那他要去做一些相關的整合的這個工作的這一個或者是把他技術水準到從6以上的然後達到說"},{"start":3105.221,"end":3128.873,"text":"會成為一個作戰的一個量產的一個目標我認為他應該是會有更多的工作要來做只是縮短這個期程這樣OK好了解那部長之後呢我們大概創新小組呢最主要比如說我們會引進的這個產品跟技術會是比較著重於像污染系統方面嗎像無人機啦無人艇之類的會是我們以後的未來的重點嗎"},{"start":3130.433,"end":3157.15,"text":"對,跟委員報告,他這個分,我講白一點,就是說分國內跟國外,國內的部分我們要進行調研,那也要跟國科會經濟部合作,國外的部分,其實像美國的DIU也事實上跟我們在進行,已經相當密切的合作了,那印太司令部也會跟我們進行交流,那甚至有一些是具有實戰的一些經驗的,不管是用在"},{"start":3158.05,"end":3176.841,"text":"相關最近這些發生衝突的地區的這些具有實戰的經驗的這些這些您剛剛提到的就是說不管是無人載具、反制無人系統、AI的目標辨識等等的這些我們會來跟他們來瞭解他們的能量這樣子"},{"start":3178.008,"end":3202.34,"text":"因為像台海這個這陣子近年來這個關係非常的緊張我們也看到說像他們這次的全國這個人民大會有提到特別提到說AI發展的這個部分所以我們還是針對這部分我們也要非常的這個注意像美國也好中國也好都要積極發展這個AI科技像台灣的也不得不提早的做這個準備"},{"start":3203.22,"end":3225.756,"text":"好那再來還有一點時間我們在11115年要成立這個冰海作戰指揮部那聽說我們的台灣海豹部隊要併入這部分引起了一些退伍官兵的一些反彈那美方也在注意畢竟這個是他們協助成立的這部分國防部的說法美國特別關注這個部分"},{"start":3226.116,"end":3249.43,"text":"我想相關的這些說美方反對還有甚至講美方同意這個都不是事實這不是事實那有關相關的這一些組織的一個變革的演繹呢我想我們會根據國土防衛作戰的一個需求那以符合最佳的作戰效能來從事這一個部隊的一個編裝的一個演繹"},{"start":3254.373,"end":3263.806,"text":"因為聽國防部說這不是猜測其實它是一個整備那對這個退伍這個老兵這個我們有沒有去做溝通他們就說要來抗議那美方這邊我們有去說明嗎"},{"start":3265.77,"end":3272.813,"text":"我個人從來沒有收到任何美方對這個問題的一個… 因為這個相關涉及到這些我們防衛作戰任務的一個改變,其實這個部分我可能沒有辦法在這裡公開向"},{"start":3286.099,"end":3300.041,"text":"是,因為我有看報導說美方在抨擊說我們是自廢武功,所以這些都不是事實就對了?沒有,沒有這樣的,完全沒有這樣的一個事實存在,這個是反而是要精進這個我們整個國土防衛作戰的這個部署這個跟任務這樣"},{"start":3301.524,"end":3327.115,"text":"對,這也要對國人說明啦,我在想像土魯軍人、老兵他們覺得這可能是不是很好的一個做法,這可能軍方還是要說明清楚應該不需要太擔心說有這樣無端被裁撤的狀況,我們一定會來秉持一個最具有作戰效益,包括中隊的這個他的任務一定會存續OK,好,以上謝謝"},{"start":3330.269,"end":3334.773,"text":"謝謝 接下來請王帝宇召委上台質詢王帝宇召委上台質詢王帝宇召委上台質詢"},{"start":3360.646,"end":3379.521,"text":"局長今年漢光40號的乖乖是你們做的還是陸軍自己做的今年的這個乖乖是國防部這邊為了推展全民國防希望民眾能夠關心國防事務你知道多困擾嗎現在大家要買買不到這個是一個小事情我今天特別把乖乖帶來"},{"start":3381.175,"end":3407.657,"text":"當然乖乖台積電的機台上面都會放乖乖啦是民間資訊業很喜歡這個事情是代表著創意是代表著有趣代表著跟人民之間的親近好事戰訓本務當然重要但用哪個界面讓人民看到國軍在做什麼因為這樣子好多人就開始說漢關40號是什麼事情所以這個不管哪個單位做的這不是顧部長做的吧"},{"start":3412.515,"end":3417.179,"text":"我建議你們現在好像是限量然後市面上好像也沒有了"},{"start":3418.691,"end":3446.324,"text":"我要了解一下因為我們限量2500箱本席就這麼一包我連拆開也吃都不敢就這一包而已我是建議說在漢光演習期間如果我們有這樣的創意發想我以前有看過有小朋友拿著國旗在路邊那個以前在軍演的時候會有一些鼓舞軍心的事情我倒覺得這個是蠻好的一件事情一個季節限量版讓有興趣的人可以買到那上面可以傳遞一些不管對牧兵或"},{"start":3447.945,"end":3465.077,"text":"韓光要傳遞給居民一體或者是全民民防的訊息在上面本小利多他還可以用賣錢的這個事情先讓你參考我接下來請部長謝謝委員所以到底是不是政戰局用的是有沒有願望你沒有沒有"},{"start":3467.031,"end":3484.928,"text":"新浪大隊做的嘛因為我以前看你們空飄氣球到中國也有類似這樣的東西好你先請回好部長我們回到我們相關不管叫DIU或者是我們軍軍事裝備的研製採購等等本期有幾個問題要就教於您第一個這個是很"},{"start":3488.291,"end":3511.986,"text":"看起來無聊但是很重要一件事情我們在政府採購法裡面有關軍事機關財務勞務採購減價收受作業規定我今天特別拿出減價收受我們常常在發包比如說3000萬或者1億某一個品項的時候當然要如期如質交貨"},{"start":3513.007,"end":3529.128,"text":"但是會有物價調整．會有原物料缺乏．會有關鍵零組件團員尋商不到．就會產生變數．或者像蓋銀色、蓋炮效．它會造成物價調整的時候經費不夠了．那我們常常就會有追加預算．"},{"start":3530.85,"end":3554.847,"text":"會減相還有一種就是好吧那我就所謂的減價收受那追加預算或者是減相發包它有一相關的規定你不能高到一個比例像最近基隆市追加預算可以追加到超過50%以上那個都罕見我今天特別focus在所謂的減價收受的部分它有六個條件"},{"start":3556.499,"end":3584.573,"text":"有六個條件呢好我現在有一個標案你標到了就你做不出來了或做出來了不符合品項項目或素質的時候符合這六個條件呢就可以打折給他買進來部長這個狀況你應該了解啦我當律師的時候都有處理過類似的這裡面其實會有一些可能產生弊端的地方值得思考的部分第一個"},{"start":3585.714,"end":3598.866,"text":"他為什麼後面需要會做不出來有一種可能他是低價搶標比如說這一個裝備在國際市場上都是一億他用五千萬給你標到了你又不能用Made in China的"},{"start":3599.943,"end":3626.319,"text":"他到時候交貨就會有困難那還有一種情形是他以為搶了便宜標到了可能被別特定廠商把那個供應鏈掌握住了他根本買不到貨所以之前整流器有沒有以前上次中科院爆發一個整流器小東西結果呢他去找原廠原廠就是不賣給他他就跑去找這這樣吧找一個廠做假的來供應還有一種情形是"},{"start":3628.095,"end":3645.767,"text":"這個標案呢原來就用低價太低的價格設定所以正常的有能力的廠商不進來會變成一些良誘不齊只要有生意做他就切進來的所以減價收受是末端源頭的標案是可能有很多樣態"},{"start":3647.108,"end":3672.379,"text":"那這裡面有6種情形可以減價收受我這邊要提醒我們不管是採購室、中科院、軍備局或者是部長這裡我們常常各單位在結案的壓力下在結案的壓力下就用減價收受把這個案子處理我不知道部長還是各位這個主管有沒有看過這個情形"},{"start":3675.367,"end":3699.577,"text":"檢架收受當然我來國防部這裡還沒有碰到但是我過去在擔任律師檢架收受確實是一個對主管來講做決定的時候是一個很困難的一件事情很大的考驗我記得好像是馬特拉馬特拉也是對但是他就還可以他可以用只是他所以現在就是說我現在舉幾個樣態就是說比方說"},{"start":3703.168,"end":3724.673,"text":"我這個車子軍用車輛某一個零部件標案的時候是指定一定要什麼的他現在供貨供的東西可以用不影響安全就像整流器也可以過電只是跟原來要求的產地不一樣他沒有用到中國的產地他可能規格不一樣甚至於防彈背心防彈背心可以減價收售我都覺得很"},{"start":3731.004,"end":3740.22,"text":"有的東西是過關跟不過關可以不可以我不能打六折打七折部長懂我意思嗎所以我會建議部長部長是法律的專業"},{"start":3741.792,"end":3762.327,"text":"在減價收受上可能要一個team去review一下我只能點到這裡這個減價收受我的了解齁我過去的處理相關經驗都要經過相關專業律法律專業跟這個使用單位他們的一個很深深的評估我這一題我先提了解比方我舉例我曾經跟陸軍討論過像我們在偵測無人機齁這個參謀長你不用上來不用上來就偵測無人機"},{"start":3768.971,"end":3796.502,"text":"他一個距離6公里幾公里要有什麼能力那是絕對標準結果我們設定的評分竟然是好啦你沒有6公里那我給你70%的分數本來要買三項整合的到最後呢有一個拿根本不應該應該是0分的就只買到兩項整合就國軍就當了冤大頭所以減價收售是各位主管擔任擔任主管在做決定的時候最大痛苦也是最大的陷阱"},{"start":3797.352,"end":3811.458,"text":"你可能收了品質他整體還可以用但是這個標案在源頭就作弊了或者這個標案可能會有些問題所以我特別今天請檢架收受請部長"},{"start":3813.08,"end":3842.31,"text":"Review一下那我未來會拿一些具體個案給各位那我也建議尤其剛接主管的像李士強剛接中科院這種剛接主管的站規師剛接主管的該看一下既有的減價收售的案件看一下不管是營建類啦或者是他品項的品質都達標只是原來要求1000件他只做了600件這個還可以討論但是如果在品質上堪用"},{"start":3844.096,"end":3869.592,"text":"卻減價收售的這個都值得懷疑甚至我們應該建立一個規則品質未達標根本不可以用減價收售這個我給部長做參考因為這個樣態太多沒辦法每一個都把它列出來我接下來請教部長我們上一次我們國防委員會有排這一個考察到我們軍備局所屬ST112的兵工廠去看那個是205嗎"},{"start":3874.231,"end":3894.525,"text":"當天有一位沒有當過兵的委員叫林義軍委員他今天不在他打滿把耶滿把打得比參謀長分數還高滿把的原因我們就去看了後來我們也去試用了後來發現有配備這一個"},{"start":3896.143,"end":3916.779,"text":"進戰的瞄準鏡那個4倍的進戰瞄準鏡對於訓練射擊的準度、效率跟訓練的時間的縮短有非常大的幫助我們到現在還是在用瞻孔瞄準可是在戰場上如果要用瞄準鏡的話我們平常都沒有這樣訓練特戰有而已所以ST-112在這個裝備上"},{"start":3922.591,"end":3950.729,"text":"我們如果採購飛彈採購所有的武器都追求打得更遠射得更精準更易形成戰力訓練時間成本縮短那為什麼我們的步槍兵我們的單兵這樣子的步槍不需要這樣的標準所以我不知道部長我們未來有沒有可能讓這樣子的光學瞄具而且這個不用對外採購是我們自己兵工廠生產的能不能全軍變標配有沒有可能"},{"start":3952.217,"end":3973.782,"text":"報告委員,陸軍參謀長向您報告,呃,陳蒙,呃,如這個委員所說的,這個,呃,新式的步槍,它已經從光學瞄準,已經改變為,呃,機械瞄準改變為光學瞄準,那效能的確是很好,那我們的整規書也在,呃,這個月會送到行政院,呃,整體規劃書,那目前我們的,呃,籌購,籌購啊,"},{"start":3978.723,"end":3996.131,"text":"現階段我們是先以特戰跟下車戰鬥的時間的關係我這是給部長思考當然要花經費但是我們也不是一年我們可以五年或多少就是說我們現在新式步槍有幾個決策需要參考部長你"},{"start":4002.186,"end":4006.942,"text":"來部長我這個很重要三點要提醒你就我了解我們兵工廠有在研製6.8口徑的"},{"start":4010.046,"end":4034.131,"text":"6.8口徑跟我們現在的5.56口徑因為北約用6.8的美軍的新式步槍用6.8的共軍用6.8的那我們現在國軍還是5.56的這個口徑所以如果軍備局研製的新式步槍有6.8重量差異不大那我們整批換裝是不是要用T112還是要其他的這是一個決策要思考的"},{"start":4035.011,"end":4053.345,"text":"因為它子彈比較大、吸彈量的數量比較小但是打中的時候對方不能動的機率比較大5.56打中的話對方還可以往前衝跟防彈背心形成毛與盾的競爭所以我沒有說絕對答案也就是說6.8正在研製中聽說今年底會出來"},{"start":4054.266,"end":4082.433,"text":"那我們現值的T112是好槍坦白講K2也不錯國際評價也很好所以當我們要換專心式步槍的時候到底要進到6.8跟北約美軍一樣還是維持5.56這是一個重大決策因為這一決定20年以後再看下一批了第二個重要決策是我這樣子的步槍要更換那我們的現役部隊至少第一線部隊不是只有特戰如果能夠配上光學瞄具"},{"start":4083.513,"end":4100.86,"text":"他的精準度提高他的打擊能力提高而且最重要是步槍兵的訓練的時間縮短效率提高這個時候在平時可以有提高訓練成效縮短射擊訓練時間大幅提升精準度但是如果在特殊時候或者在暫時的時候"},{"start":4102.742,"end":4116.401,"text":"後備要形成戰力形成有效的步槍兵那個訓練時間就非常非常的重要這個請部長思考我們可以分年把他撥上去那謝謝主席給我的時間我最後一句話就是我剛剛跟"},{"start":4117.683,"end":4126.734,"text":"陳永康委員在這邊討論我們現在空軍在美國有整個建制部隊在這邊受訓陸軍也有營級聯兵營兩個營在美國受訓美國也有派人來我們這邊協訓但是我們現在海軍"},{"start":4134.738,"end":4159.427,"text":"海軍並沒有在美方的艦艇上訓練的至少就我知道沒有但這個是很重要的再來剛才羅美林委員會問的驗證我們現在在場的所有的將領都沒有在美國的相關的實驗室跑那個模擬是要工程師跑要不然會變動畫所以可不可以爭取到這兩個就是海軍在艦艇上的"},{"start":4160.799,"end":4161.339,"text":"謝謝部長做參考"},{"start":4171.721,"end":4195.866,"text":"委員不需要我回答這個6.8公里的步槍研發會在今年開始進行那禮拜一十三年底以前完成研製跟交軍的測評那麼您剛剛提到的那個那些瞄準器的一個設備我們逐步到位逐年編列然後到戰鬥人員就全部的戰鬥人員都要謝謝那剛剛講的海軍我覺得這一點有點"},{"start":4201.408,"end":4202.048,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長"},{"start":4231.969,"end":4260.711,"text":"是,黃委員你好鄉親的懇託跟人民的期盼侵佔的痛苦或是被佔用的痛苦大家都會有一些不安我在3月12號得知空軍有到關山我們關山鎮去做一個說明會"},{"start":4262.562,"end":4286.861,"text":"這個說明會的前提待會我再做一個加強說明在3月14號我就在這個地方當時時任邱國正部長在詢問的時候有關於臺東縣關山鎮要設置戰備跑道一岸"},{"start":4289.498,"end":4312.21,"text":"為什麼沒有請聽地方的聲音那當然是這先前是一個做一個說明會說明會當時時任為空軍參謀長我們曹參謀長有參與這個說明會那後來我才得知我才得知在做一個說明會之前"},{"start":4314.571,"end":4341.877,"text":"而且是強力的認為那個地方就是要設置後來查次之後才知道沒有取得地方先做一個商議因為那個地方也有原基法土地的原住民的傳統領域包含原住民的保留地還有私人用地還有農田、糧田等等"},{"start":4344.018,"end":4364.803,"text":"當時在還沒有開3月12號開說明會之前你們應該取得部落協議的一個敦親的一個會議結果造成民眾強力的開始抗議所以我在3月14號跟邱部長就已經有這個詢問後來得知會重新檢討這是一個答案"},{"start":4372.93,"end":4400.685,"text":"那另外我在4月2號我又特別召開協調會當時時任的曹參謀長也到後來也問了他說就不一定在那個地方重新是不是在思考到另外一個地方來考量是這是一個協調的結果那如果有進一步有進一步有其他的"},{"start":4401.965,"end":4426.737,"text":"新訂的方案在另行通知我結果藐視本席跳過7月1號、7月3號、7月9號要召開說明會召開說明會所以後來7月1號民眾抗議不管是台東縣長姚慶林或是成功關山鎮長"},{"start":4428.418,"end":4446.565,"text":"還有地方的齊老民意代表包含鄉親都已經在那邊拉布條抗議所以我7月3號下午我就召開協調會為得知那個我們新上任的參謀長王參謀長後來說已經請聽到聽到民眾的聲音了"},{"start":4453.027,"end":4473.903,"text":"那當然地方還是不安所以縣長跟鎮長昨天親自帶領將近百位的鄉親來到立法院表達他們的一個抗議所以部長你新上任我想再來跟我們台東的鄉親我們對國防的國力"},{"start":4477.833,"end":4504.593,"text":"跟戰備我們絕對支持我們國軍的戰力增強對我們國人的保護絕對是安全的當然如果在沒有取得地方的民意而違背了我們在地方的國土計劃法的產業整合跟資源配置及人文資產的保護那另外又跳過"},{"start":4506.834,"end":4533.792,"text":"憲法保障的原基法的時候我們如何：國軍如何跟警民合作的一個心態所以今天我要特別再次的詢問部長有沒有可能再找另外一個地方這個戰備跑道不要再執意在現在你們所指定一個說明會的一個地點麻煩你來回答一下"},{"start":4535.441,"end":4544.175,"text":"跟委員報告,我的理解是我們會來審慎研議這個相關其他的可能的方案"},{"start":4545.539,"end":4573.302,"text":"也會傾聽這個地方的民意來做一個審慎的評估好這個答案我相信我們臺東的鄉親還有關山鎮的鄉親都聽得到應該安定了這個心我相信國軍的戰備戰力我們是絕對支持但是一定要取得地方的民意的聲音一定要聽到以上"},{"start":4573.982,"end":4580.741,"text":"那另外是我們過去蔡政府在成立資通電金"},{"start":4583.733,"end":4610.633,"text":"但是這個理想很豐富現實很骨感最後蔡總統在卸任前把資通電軍形同解編原因除了從民間延攬相關高科技人才不意外最重要的就是組織再造的問題那當初這個資通電軍的成立的指揮部"},{"start":4613.309,"end":4634.685,"text":"帶有先設建後跨把的性格將原本的國防部的支電指揮部改名為支通電經指揮部在併入入軍各軍團和防衛部的通知群及通知連整個"},{"start":4636.175,"end":4658.862,"text":"通知系統出了斷層人事和指揮權都一團亂如今要成立先進國防創新單位那我想請問一下部長成立這個先進國防創新單位是誰建議成立的國防創新小組我想是在"},{"start":4662.249,"end":4673.473,"text":"就我理解應該是在這個蔡總統的任內那就有這樣子的一個構想那美國因為DIU也有成立相當的時間從2015吧就開始有"},{"start":4677.434,"end":4702.901,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為有人一開始就認為說這個是好像是在學搭把但是我們不是在學搭把搭把是那種先進的好像要發展比如說次世代未來戰機啦那個有時候看起來好像外星武器一樣的那些東西這是我們做不來的那我們做得來的就是要以我們有限的資源來引進成熟的這個裝備或者是系統"},{"start":4704.281,"end":4727.171,"text":"或者技術等等來快速的來形成戰力那我們現在在設置在整平室底下那我想是應該是沒有在沒有沒有就在整平室底下設置一個現在先行設置一個附加邊組然後我們來進行一個穩健踏實的一個"},{"start":4727.771,"end":4740.922,"text":"我想好我想這個不是蔡總統因為蔡總統在之前成立的這個資通電軍已經解編所以我現在問的是資通電軍還在啊還在嗎還在還在還在嗎"},{"start":4751.249,"end":4774.336,"text":"有沒有效能的運作跟委員報告我是中電經常務長目前我們中電運行整個的完整編制都還在那我們因為任務的需求要把我們的這個相關的通訊部隊有編配到各作案區來提升他的作戰效應以上報告那我想部長成立這個先進國防創新單位"},{"start":4777.521,"end":4792.498,"text":"這是不是我們蕭副總統的旨意蕭副總統在午夜初在美國國會論壇提出台灣將仿效美國的國防創新單位以便能"},{"start":4793.178,"end":4818.625,"text":"用最快速、最具體成本效益的方式將尖端科技應用在軍事領域副總統實際上並不是管國防業務但此消息是由副總統講出來且副總統當時在甚至沒有就職卻已經對國防業務下指導期或者是先進國防創新單位是由美國指導組成的"},{"start":4821.623,"end":4844.158,"text":"跟委員報告,那個我們參考這個美國的DIU的做法是在2月1號就成立了您剛剛講的蕭副總統講的應該是5月吧?是不是?他的一篇公開的演講裡面去提到,如果我記得沒有錯的話所以事實上他只是因為他在"},{"start":4848.101,"end":4872.581,"text":"這個相當的關心這個這樣子的一個DIU的運作所以他應該是只是就我們已經成立的這個事實然後還有一些如何這個來發展這個創新概念的這個評估跟這個引進民間成熟技術來做一個將美國的這個DIU來做一個說明然後希望我們可以來"},{"start":4878.111,"end":4902.69,"text":"來就我們這樣子的一個做法然後跟現在這樣子的一個先進科技的一個趨勢的發展能夠契合我想他只是做這樣的一個算是一個一個闡述這樣子的一個概念而已並沒有我想不要跌床架屋因為很多事情是如果他是具備"},{"start":4903.993,"end":4919.951,"text":"有能夠快速而且具備有效能的話當然這個可以研究那另外我想請問一下國造無人機的預算遭排擠在根據今天國防部的報告先進國防創新單位的優先領域"},{"start":4923.655,"end":4949.267,"text":"在現階段是以民間具相當科技能量之無人載具反制無人機系統AI目標辨識自主導航及職管輔助等產品及技術為優先聚焦的項目但國防部在預算似乎在成立先進國防創新單位互相矛盾媒體報導"},{"start":4950.668,"end":4964.389,"text":"國造無人機預算排擠而未獲量產請問部長原本要採購無人機的預算是否是哪個部分的預算被排擠那另外我想請教請教"},{"start":4967.062,"end":4983.777,"text":"部長之前已經表示無論是美國的彈簧刀還是台版的彈簧刀我們都會採購兩者雖然性能類似但在同時編裝下本席發現有三個問題"},{"start":4984.938,"end":5005.452,"text":"第一個是系統整合第二個指管應用第三戰術搭配要如何做到我想請教主席再給我30秒我是不是請周議員講一下因為我們雙重併進我們這個部分就是要靠AI"},{"start":5006.732,"end":5019.968,"text":"考AI那為什麼預算會被排擠預算並沒有被排擠所以部長之前也講過不管是美造的彈簧刀或是我們國產自製的攻擊型無人機都同時在進行所以現在是用AI"},{"start":5021.232,"end":5024.634,"text":"所以現在我三個問題發現的是系統整合、指管運用、戰術搭配所以你說用AI"},{"start":5044.206,"end":5072.927,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5074.329,"end":5077.692,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員上台諮詢可以謝謝主席嗎 有請部長請部長"},{"start":5096.989,"end":5124.211,"text":"事由黃委員吼部長吼 延續上一次啊那個質詢的主題啊綠能國家隊聯合再生我們納稅人投資的綠能國家隊不要說投資啦 是紓困拿錢去給他亂花的綠能國家隊竟然在我們的南洋指揮部還不止還包括了其他的海軍營區啊等等裝了中國製的逆變器那上一次質詢完了以後"},{"start":5124.972,"end":5153.351,"text":"那也很感謝我們部里的同仁把一些聯合再生他們回報的一個結果包括了說在軍警局有22台陸軍紅柴林園區有44台海軍有62台國防大學有83台這一些中國製的逆變器他們已經都呈報回來了"},{"start":5156.133,"end":5179.665,"text":"國防大學應該是沒有應該是您講的應該是三軍三總的松山分院部長您看一下我現在在講的是逆變期國防大學率真園區沒有沒有是不是沒有我等一下跟部長報告針對有的部分我上次跟部長提了說如果我們國防部有要求"},{"start":5181.107,"end":5195.021,"text":"對這種不肖廠商只是抓到了趕快通知他你被抓到了趕快換一換就不會有嚇阻的效力上次部長承諾我說你會回去研究一下契約當然我前兩天我有質詢過國安局局長"},{"start":5197.583,"end":5224.123,"text":"也就是說在我們自通安全管理法裡面針對這個部分沒有設法則我個人是期期以為不可但沒有關係現行的法規範狀態長成這個樣子就契約上面主張權力這件事情國防部現在打算怎麼辦國防部就那個涉及的紅彩林的營區應該是會終止這個合約其他的部分呢"},{"start":5224.881,"end":5240.773,"text":"其他部分跟委員報告因為如果涉及這個變流器的部分的話我們評估結果因為它沒有涉及運算傳輸等等的這個功能所以它只有逆變器的這個部分的話應該不至於有影響治安的這個狀況所以我們會採更換的這個部分來處理"},{"start":5244.622,"end":5261.139,"text":"我跟部長交換一個概念就是說能夠到我們國防部的軍事要塞裡面去裝設這種東西的廠商我們要很嚴肅的看待我希望建立的原則是不是他哪裡被抓到"},{"start":5262.182,"end":5285.945,"text":"哪裡壞一壞就處理掉了而是要一體性的去評估這一種會欺騙會說謊而且無視國防安全無視國安安全的廠商在本質上是不是我們國防部我們各個部隊我們所有其他三軍可以合作的對象"},{"start":5287.393,"end":5309.538,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在齁因為他是講他原來是租地跟或者是租屋頂所以我們原來的這一個相關的這個驗收的作為可能沒有因為他是我們只是單純租地租屋頂給他可是現在我們我已經要求了部長你說的有道理你說到的齁完全是point"},{"start":5309.798,"end":5337.79,"text":"他租地租屋頂來幹嘛裝他的東西嘛裝他的東西要發電嘛他要賣電要賺錢嘛我們允許一個廠商喔到我們的軍事要塞裡面去裝各式各樣的設備讓他發電讓他可以賣電所以我剛才跟部長講這個廠商會不會欺騙很重要這個廠商有沒有把我們國家的國家安全放在心裡面很重要"},{"start":5339.11,"end":5366.589,"text":"這個廠商有沒有顧慮到我們這一些非常辛苦冒險犯難我們的這一些軍人很重要所以我才跟部長講說我只是跟部長交換一個概念國防部面對這種廠商什麼樣的廠商我們應該允許他到我們的軍事要塞裡面來去裝這些東西這件事情要控管為什麼我會做這樣的事我跟部長報告"},{"start":5367.91,"end":5397.034,"text":"他絕對不是不小心的啦上次我給你看的那個照片照片上面貼紙就Made in China嘛除非你把眼睛閉起來否則你只要睜開眼睛就會看到那個叫Made in China他為什麼敢這麼大剌剌的他有恃無恐而且不只這樣來我給部長看他說有裝中國製路由器工業電腦的只有紅柴林營區嘛這個是剛剛他們回報給部長的內容我應該沒有掌握錯吧"},{"start":5397.634,"end":5424.628,"text":"是好來清查的結果也是這樣說好來我為什麼說齁他們騙國防部我今天詢答完我願意選擇國防部是被欺騙而不是國防部知道在幫他們遮掩因為我這兩天我一直在想到底是他們騙國防部還是國防部知道以後幫他們遮掩來請看一下這個是廠商喔"},{"start":5425.868,"end":5441.984,"text":"公務車輛RCX維護日期2024年7月2號回報的人員、維運的人員全名我都有但我想不要為難基層的人他們只是奉命做事他們去做什麼事"},{"start":5443.137,"end":5465.285,"text":"他們去國防率真營區、教學大樓等等等等地點全部都有然後說明處理的狀況國防大學應校方要求回收MIC就是Made in China相關監控設備共11台IPC加Routers這是資通訊產品路由器含SIM卡"},{"start":5472.301,"end":5498.032,"text":"回公司那等於是什麼等於是國防大學知道通知這個不肖廠商欸你東西也來給我拆走因為軍人他自己不會拆嘛那些資通訊產品他已經通知廠商叫他來拆走然後廠商被通知以後派人去拆拆完了現在拆完了沒有拆完了所以才會有這個什麼違運監工作業回報"},{"start":5501.274,"end":5527.691,"text":"那結果國防大學是以逆不報嗎?國防部是被蒙蔽嗎?請部長這到底怎麼回事?這到底怎麼回事?跟委員回報齁上6月26號委員執行完之後我們部長就非常的要求我們要落實這個我了解部長很重視請不要講我們確認三次就是"},{"start":5529.192,"end":5549.742,"text":"回報只有洪才琳有錄遊戲是 國防大學什麼時候回報的至今啦 我們沒有得到這個訊息對不起 我聽不懂我上次檢舉就有檢舉國防大學啦剛剛部長也說國防大學沒有啊所以到底是沒有還是你們不知道還是沒有回報現在情況到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":5551.209,"end":5577.478,"text":"我看委員既然有這樣子的一個質疑我想我們會下去之後會跟國防大學來進一步來進一步查明因為主席站起來我很快跟部長報告你們是有發新聞稿的喔國防部清查了結果發新聞稿喔所至於國防大學率真營區則沒有使用錄製產品我相信這是國防部發的新聞稿"},{"start":5578.823,"end":5605.396,"text":"所以剛剛我不曉得您左手邊那是哪一位說你們不知道應該不是不知道就有發新聞稿了嘛是他沒有回報給我們我們不知道對那如果沒有回報給你們那你們怎麼會說沒有呢他是應該回報給你們說沒有嘛而不是沒有回報給你們我這樣理解沒有錯吧他應該是回報沒有沒有回報沒有好那我今天就是要跟部長檢舉這件事他跟部裡面回報說沒有那就有"},{"start":5606.929,"end":5629.441,"text":"而且還是他通知廠商去猜的猜的還不是只有逆變器喔是IPC喔是路由器喔含SIM卡喔那這個問題就嚴重了嘛國防大學誰在包屁跟廠商勾串嗎這到底是怎麼回事部長可不可以承諾把他查清楚"},{"start":5630.436,"end":5647.341,"text":"我們下去會把它調查清楚那個查清楚查完了以後查完了結果是不是可以回覆給我可以可以我只有一個原則齁太可惡了太可惡了被抓到還幹這種事啊被抓到還幹這種事啊對不起我們的國防弟兄啊甚至本來還要輕輕的放過他"},{"start":5656.358,"end":5657.7,"text":"我們接下來請沈博洋委員上台質詢"},{"start":5683.575,"end":5686.576,"text":"謝謝主席,有請顧部長,謝謝請顧部長部長好,那我還是回來今天我覺得比較重要的問題因為今天的這個報告事項是跟這個創新中心有關係所以我還是以這個問題來為準那我看能不能快一點補一下剛剛失去的時間"},{"start":5709.446,"end":5729.282,"text":"第1個就是這一個就是按照這一次的業務報告就是剛剛羅美玲委員有問過就是有這個TRL從1億一直到9然後呢民間學術機構比較負責的是一些基礎那中科院去做一些整合那創新角度可能更從一些戰略的角度然後跟國外的一些"},{"start":5729.582,"end":5732.743,"text":"中科院會做一些,比如說它在系統整合裡面,然後要在作戰環境下要怎麼展示。但因為創新小組跟中科院在這一邊,看起來功能重疊的蠻多的啦。"},{"start":5755.413,"end":5767.371,"text":"所以想知道的第一件事情就是中科院在這邊的定位到底會是偏向什麼是不是說是創新小組比較像是發想中科院做執行呢還是說有另外的這一個分工的方式"},{"start":5768.115,"end":5795.385,"text":"創新小組必須根據我們這個相關的你剛提到特別是聯戰的這個區域需求然後來發展出一個分析較佳的一個一些戰術戰法跟行動方案然後哪一些武器能夠運用一些先進科技成熟的先進科技然後來提升防衛力量那這樣子的話它就等於是作為一個橋樑"},{"start":5796.505,"end":5821.268,"text":"他將這個國內或者是國外的這些我們相關得到的一個資訊那我們會進行了解了解以後呢經過大家討論認為是OK的那另外我們會進一步向民間來公開徵集他雖然是有了但是我們這整個系統也好裝備也好可能還要有進一步的解決方案那他就"},{"start":5821.708,"end":5847.529,"text":"他再進一步跟他徵詢一些解決的方案那相關如果已經到達某一個程度的話我們中科院也是仍然扮演不可或缺的角色仍然要交給中科院去做相關的這個系統的整合或者是進一步的研發成一個就是直接成為一個裝備可以來那這樣的話期程會縮短"},{"start":5848.687,"end":5866.387,"text":"因為時間的因素有一些小細節我先不問第一個這個我可能下一次再問就是說當然就是說民間成熟科技當然是會是我們很重要的一個目標但我在看美方的時候其實美方有時候他做的他不一定會找成熟科技那他不找成熟科技的時候他中間會有一些來來回回的一些確認"},{"start":5868.789,"end":5888.912,"text":"到底這個科技要怎麼運用在這一個軍方這邊然後以及呢就是他本來是商規然後商規要怎麼變成軍規而不是一開始就要求他軍規會有一些細節的問題但這個細節的問題我想晚一點問因為我想根據這個剛剛部長的回答關於中科院的這個角色就是說呢左邊這邊是中科院的這個第三條說中科院的業務範圍"},{"start":5890.533,"end":5907.814,"text":"裏面包含生產、製造、銷售、國內外的交流等等之類的那第一個呢我還是就是說這個我在前面在這個邱部長的時候我有提過一件事情就是因為中科院他會負責生產、製造跟銷售但因為中科院的這個董事長是國防部長來做兼任"},{"start":5908.675,"end":5928.672,"text":"那今天如果是這個創新他們去提出一些需求然後到最後國防部也需要做採購但是因為中科院本身他的董事長也是部長自己所以這個其實不管怎樣的這個在以法律上來講這個等於是這個買方跟賣方都會有這個國防部長這一點會有點奇怪那這個"},{"start":5930.033,"end":5943.629,"text":"當然不一定會是一個問題是因為它本來就有它不是用一些政府採購的規定但是呢像剛剛講的譬如說資訊上的一些這個整合或者系統的整合它並沒有很完整的定在這個中科院的業務範圍"},{"start":5944.93,"end":5969.823,"text":"所以除了剛剛講的這個利益上的這個衝突的一個小點之外我有在想說我們是不是要把這一個中科院的一些根據剛剛今天的業務報告做一些修整這個我還沒有提出來因為我覺得這個是要慢慢來回討論的事情我這邊只是嘗試性的寫寫看就是第一個就是中科院它畢竟會有一些比較需要更突破性的一些創新發展所以我用紅字把它標在這一個第一款"},{"start":5970.643,"end":5985.562,"text":"然後第四款這邊呢因為有講到技術移轉跟技術服務這是本來的條文我就想說因為系統測試跟整合是中科院非常重要的目標那是不是應該在修法的時候把中科院的任務把這一個放進來我覺得這是重要的"},{"start":5985.962,"end":6012.927,"text":"然後再來第二項往下就把這幾款的突破型技術關鍵技術依照我們本來的建軍需求去把它清理起來這是第一個我的一個建議那第二個就是講到的就是生產跟製造這一邊就像我之前在質詢葉士進葉士進今天有提出需求之後401也有給中科院也有給可能民間也有給那但是因為中科院給他的角色就會特別的奇怪因為畢竟董事長就是部長自己"},{"start":6013.567,"end":6024.515,"text":"所以不知道就這一點而言有沒有可能我們在休會期的時候就是來討論一下就是中科院的定位然後根據這一個新的方案是不是有一些修法的必要"},{"start":6027.828,"end":6050.92,"text":"這可以來研議,來進一步來研議中科院的更明確的定位這樣子。好,那就是希望就是說我們看能不能在之後的時候討論一下這一點,因為畢竟如果按照今天的業務報告,其實中科院看起來還有更多的任務要做。那如果今天民間的這一個能量是越大的,民間可以做越多事情的時候,中科院可以更專注在做整合。"},{"start":6051.34,"end":6051.5,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6067.085,"end":6081.898,"text":"好那接下來就是因為在報告裡面有提到AI那當然我這邊會有兩個小問題就是說因為裡面有提到一些優先事項跟其他要做的事情那優先事項裡面呢其實並沒有把網路戰把它放在優先事項但是"},{"start":6082.699,"end":6106.387,"text":"我覺得比較奇怪的一點是我們民間最強的看起來是網路就台灣雖然剛剛有一個自動電的一個差距但是台灣確實在民間上網路這個部分是蠻強大的所以這一個方面的創新這個部分是不是應該把民間的這個網路相關的一些量能放進來這是我第一個問題那第二個問題就是AI因為右邊這一個是中國之前的這個武裝機器狗"},{"start":6110.108,"end":6131.779,"text":"眾議院在美國的眾議院就要求他們的國防部長要報告就是說他這個AI如果去結合這樣的一個方式會不會變成一個不受控的一個殺人武器那我們台灣因為畢竟AI的一個演算如果今天按照中科院之前講的要做一個真打一體的無人機那真打一體的無人機他也有可能會有這些問題就是說他如果不受控該怎麼辦"},{"start":6132.719,"end":6148.705,"text":"那今天他的AI的演算要不要直接鎖在裡面他不要去連接外部這些事情不知道有沒有一些研擬相關的規範跟委員報告第一個網路站的部分在我們報告的第三頁是有提到我們會關注網路站的部分這第一個當然沒有放在優先"},{"start":6149.785,"end":6177.754,"text":"對沒有也不能說沒有放在優先我們會持續來關注這些網路戰也是我們持續重點的關注項目之一AI的這個部分在軍事上的應用上面應該是說深層式的那種自我學習的這一個部分的運用要非常的注意對所以自我學習然後自我去發動攻擊這個部分在軍事的運用上面是現在大家就非常的"},{"start":6180.775,"end":6200.585,"text":"所以我們這個AI的這個系統要讓它不至於成為不受控的自己可以自我決定去的這樣子的一個狀況應該是不至於我們不會讓它成為自動的一個殺人機我們最後決定的這個指令還是要接受人的指令"},{"start":6203.726,"end":6230.887,"text":"跟委員很簡單報告就是AI運用在軍事用途上最基本的倫理就是最後的攻擊指令必須要由人來下達而不是AI這是我們會嚴守的原則對沒問題因為這個目前來講就是我這邊列的2023年美國跟荷蘭還有荷蘭是結合歐盟都有發布叫做負責任軍事使用人工智慧的政治宣言那另外一個是軍事領域負責開發部署和使用AI有些規則"},{"start":6232.308,"end":6241.666,"text":"對外公佈我覺得這也是我們可以做的事情這應該在行政上或許就可以做所以搭配這一次的業務報告我覺得這件事情或許是將來我們可以考慮的"},{"start":6243.099,"end":6269.431,"text":"最後這一個還有那麼一點點時間根據DIU的部分大概問到這一邊最後一個是要問蔡媽媽這三個月一直以來都在樓下部長可能也知道部長以前也有在紅中秋案我也有在紅中秋案我們對這些事情其實也相對熟悉他們之前有開一個記者會就是說到底軍援委員會要不要讓它比較有一個常態性的設置這是第一個"},{"start":6270.151,"end":6290.829,"text":"那第二個就是呢其實蔡雪良案國防部後來已經有發新的報告了然後也有去說這跟原來的報告不符啦那我覺得這當然還是涉及一個軍中轉型正義的問題就是說為什麼就是後來的確生出了一個比較正確的報告但是在過往的那麼長的一段時間為什麼這一個報告它是一直都沒有出來"},{"start":6291.73,"end":6316.438,"text":"所以我覺得這個當然呢我們這雖然是一個過去的事情但是我覺得軍中如果能夠做好一些轉型正義的工作我覺得對整體政府的那一個大家對國軍的信任度也會有提升未來陸海攻擊懲罰法裡面會有明定關於類似這樣子重大的一個案件會組織一個專案的調查小組然後會讓當事人來做陳述之後還有一個相關應該是"},{"start":6318.539,"end":6346.214,"text":"專案評議會員來請外部的委員來參與這個我們調查小組之後的一個評議這樣子對未來來講是我們在陸海公益採訪法案如果通過的話那就有相當的一個機制那蔡協良案我當然自己也一直感同身受但是他確實已經經過相當多的司法程序的調查了這個部分"},{"start":6347.735,"end":6370.914,"text":"我們面對這個司法已經窮盡了我想這個部分我們情證調查是不是有辦法能夠再做更多這件事情因為我們沒有這個這樣子的一個翻轉這個司法調查的結果這樣的一個權力所以這一點可能也要請委員能夠諒解"},{"start":6372.854,"end":6398.725,"text":"我覺得這一點是OK的就是司法程序它的進展我們不會去智慧那當然我覺得但是我覺得一直比較傷感的地方就是在過去有很長一段時間它其實有翻轉的機會嘛但是有一段時間一直沒有辦法去生成這樣的報告然後後來是迫於壓力之後才形成那我們想要問的就是說在這個之前的狀況我們要怎麼樣在體制內讓這種事情不要再發生不是說這個案件不要再發生而已而是說案件發生了之後"},{"start":6399.045,"end":6399.806,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6425.545,"end":6437.917,"text":"因為外界有確實聲音說軍援委員會要這樣,那我認為陸海公益懲罰這樣的一個機制,如果能夠儘快通過的話,就等同這樣的機制是可以把它體制化這樣沒有問題,謝謝部長謝謝主席我們下面請馬文君委員來質詢"},{"start":6457.483,"end":6460.805,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長有請顧部長部長早安部長在這裡要先請教的是因為剛剛黃國昌委員也有揭露就是說國軍使用中國制太陽能的逆變器、路由器、工業電腦等等還有"},{"start":6481.96,"end":6501.51,"text":"許巧信委員也揭露了國防部使用中國製的行車記錄器那這幾天因為剛剛聽到黃委員在質詢的時候顯然可能還有很多的部分沒有調查清楚或者甚至可能有掩蓋事實的部分那因為這個其實是非常嚴重這個不只一件"},{"start":6502.21,"end":6508.034,"text":"不只太陽能不只這個像行車紀錄器還有很多過去其實也一直不斷的發生我們先來看看因為行車紀錄器這個早就驗收結案了國防部當時除了更換以外好像沒有其他的做法可是我們常常說的非常大聲訂的好像非常嚴格不可以使用錄製的產品當我們嚴格要求的時候甚至有些是法辦"},{"start":6528.709,"end":6528.929,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6545.528,"end":6563.34,"text":"車輛都被裝上這個錄製的行車記錄器他到底已經有透露了什麼樣的訊息有流出去我們不得而知可是我們看到我們現在很多案子顯示國防部在採購上面沒有認真的查場"},{"start":6564.261,"end":6564.321,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6581.67,"end":6583.152,"text":"對於這些行車記錄器當時其實已經有找過國防部相關的人員詢問那時候查核的結果也都是輕輕的帶過我們來看一下"},{"start":6595.902,"end":6598.824,"text":"就本席曾經就總金額其實兩年大概高達4億的陸軍中型戰術輪車的維修案有提醒伊達諾公司是出具不使原廠授權書的方式向國防部揭標案"},{"start":6611.795,"end":6636.693,"text":"那時候陸軍還有相關單位其實都堅持說採購的過程都合於規定可是到最後也發現有很多其實都是採購陸制的產品我們先來看看這些包括這個行車紀錄器當時是有一家互唱公司他們得標結果過沒多久就他的媽媽的公司叫益坤金屬"},{"start":6638.223,"end":6642.467,"text":"就從大陸進了大概1400具左右的這樣數量就進來了"},{"start":6645.814,"end":6674.425,"text":"那到底這個家族他到底做了我們國防部多少生意我們現在先看一下他們的記錄益坤金屬他有34個案子被停權護暢公司有17個案子被停權暢威新業有4個案子被停權再加上這個伊達諾就是之前標到我們的輕型戰術輪車的這個公司他在後指部目前二省的"},{"start":6675.861,"end":6700.54,"text":"這個官司其實都輸了很快可能也會被停權如果這些家族我們來看看他的關係首先這個益坤金屬是護暢公司這個兒子的媽媽然後他的女兒是伊達諾汽車公司然後還有另外一個女兒就是暢威新業這些做了我們國防部非常多的這些"},{"start":6701.821,"end":6701.861,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":6720.629,"end":6720.889,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6734.454,"end":6741.177,"text":"分布在我們陸海空各軍種他所有的採購其實都發生這樣的問題請教部長對於這個我們對於陸製的產品這麼大聲疾呼說在合約上面有訂相關規定後續要怎麼做跟委員報告一樣都是假的"},{"start":6755.934,"end":6775.181,"text":"就那個太陽能光電的這個部分因為他們原來是認為租屋租地部長沒關係因為那個黃國昌委員在關心太陽能的這個部分我剛剛是說其實有非常多因為包括剛剛很多被停權的案子很多都是因為他可能用了陸製的這些產製品"},{"start":6778.422,"end":6788.046,"text":"我們未來應該要怎麼做因為你有很多包括你現在的無人機包括你還有很多的國防武器裝備甚至未來我們在DIU上面你甚至可以讓國內外的企業都可以參與我們的國防的一些產業發展那這個就更有可能會有這樣類似的情形不斷的發生我們有什麼樣的作為我只要知道"},{"start":6804.212,"end":6827.095,"text":"部長有什麼樣的作為?我想我們我個人的看法以我過去也是法律相關背景我認為我們應該要在驗收的程序上面要來加強來測驗這個要結合政風單位也要結合法律的單位然後一起來進行相關的這些驗收的一些程序"},{"start":6827.856,"end":6845.106,"text":"那從採購式開始呢就要進行這個採購的這個部分部長部長這個部分其實過去到現在都有當我們提出質疑的時候這些單位也都很認真的保證說這個應該都沒有問題可是最後發現他就是有問題當我們凍結預算的時候我們事先預警的時候"},{"start":6852.592,"end":6858.236,"text":"還是被強勢的通過各項的預算剛剛王朝偉也特別提到很高興他發現到這個問題就是我們很多案子是減價驗收當你做的品質不夠好或者品質有瑕疵或者有一些違規或者甚至不符合我們的軍種作戰需求的時候我們都是減價驗收他的樣態當然非常的多我們只是只想要知道他可以怎麼做部長請在這裡告訴我們現在不斷不斷的發生"},{"start":6883.088,"end":6903.755,"text":"以你在法律這麼專業的背景情況之下未來怎麼樣去防止剛剛說的那些本來就有了在我們的程序體制上都有一旦發現以後我們怎麼做因為你就是換掉而已啊現在目前是換掉而已啊不然就停權停權他又換了一家公司還是繼續飆啊"},{"start":6906.101,"end":6922.553,"text":"現在如果停選之後他換了一家公司的話我想我的個人立場認為我們應該要做一個詳細的查核如果他是有這樣的一個狀況的話部長顯然沒辦法查核啦因為我剛剛念了幾十件還有十幾件什麼這樣被停選的部分"},{"start":6924.076,"end":6937.706,"text":"簡單來說因為時間的關係部長可不可以在合約上面訂的清清楚楚包括他的罰則還有他應該接受什麼樣子的一個條件的一個懲罰有沒有辦法在合約上面訂定清楚"},{"start":6938.544,"end":6963.702,"text":"各位委員我是國防採購室主任謝謝委員指導我這邊針對剛剛委員所問的摘要的跟委員報告有關於這個廠商的部分不管它們之間的這個關係是怎麼樣我們依據這個相關的規定它的廠商的基本資格包含設定登記的證明還有它的納稅證明這都是標準的規定我們去審認它之間的關係當然是只是一個"},{"start":6965.003,"end":6969.647,"text":"如果要講到這樣我們就來講重點我們一直只希望要結果可是你一直在把過去的案子如果你還要再擦脂抹粉我們現在來看因為今天這個家族他們成立什麼樣的公司我們也沒有意見他可以設立很多樣的一些相關的公司都沒有問題可是他公司地址跟工廠地址都一樣都在這個地方甚至上一次要修我們的車子的時候在那個二樓"},{"start":6994.666,"end":7000.55,"text":"請告訴我怎麼樣在二樓修我們國軍的輪車還有他進口的他媽媽在大陸進口以後我們用了經濟部標準檢驗局合格的檢驗證明就等同他的產地證明我們是這樣收受的我今天只是要知道說你不斷不斷的發生的情況之下你應該要有什麼樣的作為因為顯然是沒有用的或者甚至有人在包庇"},{"start":7024.726,"end":7044.908,"text":"我只想要請教部長未來這個部分要如何杜絕如果你沒有辦法杜絕你甚至要用最新的DIU或者什麼樣更多的方式你只是開越多的那個窗口越多的可能的漏洞讓大家進到我們的國防產業來有沒有一個基本的一個防度的作為"},{"start":7046.542,"end":7064.511,"text":"就法律面來看我想以剛剛委員所指教的就是說比如說這些他新成立的公司他的地址是一樣的那我這個認為就很有可疑所以就這個部分的話我們應該要在查核上面就要能夠審慎那甚至是讓他不符合資格標"},{"start":7065.251,"end":7085.218,"text":"所以我想這個部分應該要來做所以從採購的合約規範一開始一直到最後驗收的程序我想我們都有很多要來檢討以委員的指教來檢討進行的空間我會來好好地來重新檢視我想我們的法律事務司應該要承擔這樣子的一個責任好 那就這個部分未來要怎麼樣防堵這個部分請給我們詳細的書面報告好不好好"},{"start":7090.86,"end":7093.524,"text":"另外因為時間的關係今天我們主要討論的就是我們的DIU的部分我想請教因為我們有提到說未來這個小組優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧因為現在也剛剛要成立它可能我們還不是很明確"},{"start":7108.223,"end":7108.363,"text":"．併請國防部部長"},{"start":7126.969,"end":7142.794,"text":"的作法比如說現在的民間我們覺得因為我們現在已經要編了五六百億的預算可能要採購無人機我不知道預算這個金額是不是正確啦至少那個是軍用商規的部分就至少五六百億嘛"},{"start":7143.534,"end":7148.938,"text":"我們跟美方採購的其實也高達100多億都是非常高的金額那目前我們現在軍用商規的部分有沒有什麼特別突出的部分比中科院還要好因為中科院研發了這麼長的時間至少經費也耗費了100多億以上可是民間有什麼樣的量能還有新興的科技的這個技術創新的技術比這些還要好是不是可以舉例一下"},{"start":7173.654,"end":7187.808,"text":"因為你要花那麼多錢啊因為你現在已經要引進了也認為說這個很好是不是可以舉例說在無人機上面民間的科技有什麼樣的一個創新的做法比我們現在還要好"},{"start":7188.818,"end":7204.02,"text":"現在就分工來講的話因為現在中科院比較focus是在那個三四級的這個無人機的這個上面那我想日後要"},{"start":7205.142,"end":7219.22,"text":"結合相關我們的作戰需求所相關的需要的這些特別是爭打議題的那無人載具我想我們已經有相當的一些但是我覺得不適合"},{"start":7222.304,"end":7225.147,"text":"公開的去講說哪些因為無人機的相關技術都非常的公開透明因為全世界都在發展無人機它只是不斷的進進我們看到的它有很多就是可能在"},{"start":7238.4,"end":7258.605,"text":"之前尤其是最近的二無戰爭上面他有一個成功的一個效果當然他後續還是被發現可能GPS可能被影響以後他沒有被干擾以後他沒有辦法很精準的做到位那我現在只是要請教的因為剛剛一直講說這個是創新科技嘛那你要讓民間進來所以"},{"start":7261.365,"end":7264.706,"text":"中科院其實有已經做出建想他是有有有那個兼徵跟攻擊喔騰雲也是攻擊然後還有瑞淵我們之前還有很多還有什麼紅雀其實我們有非常多他包括針尖"},{"start":7279.813,"end":7285.477,"text":"都、都有還有攻擊也都有不是沒有可是你現在民間的創新技術到底是什麼可以比我們的我們原來的這些更好應該要具體的說一下"},{"start":7293.587,"end":7308.981,"text":"我想他這個我們運用這個無人機的這個部門您剛講的騰雲這是高高空的這個無人機那至於這些內營的是海軍在用的那紅卷山現在還沒經過測評"},{"start":7310.342,"end":7326.949,"text":"那我想這些相關的這些包括剛剛講的您提到我們買的這個300或600的這些彈簧刀或者是我們能夠發展出更遠程的這些整哪一體的無人機或者是我們水面的這些無人艦艇"},{"start":7328.47,"end":7347.879,"text":"那甚至有可能的話水下無人載具等等這些相關的這些技術在整個運用無人機的這相關的AI技術來包括影像識別目標定位防撞避撞防撞避碰然後自動航路規劃火力分配等等這個都有各種跟委員報告我只最後講一句話從烏克蘭戰爭的經驗告訴我們"},{"start":7351.055,"end":7362.068,"text":"無人機的需求是非常非常大的部長我們認同因為很早之前我們也非常關注無人機也認為這是必要的發展我現在只是想知道說我們編了那麼多的預算如果連我們五六百億軍用商規還包括跟美軍購的這樣加起來"},{"start":7368.576,"end":7370.078,"text":"其實可能高達800億以上那現在我們剛剛念到的這些剛剛部長你說的這些功能、性能其實中科院就是已經花了非常高額的預算去研發出來的成果"},{"start":7384.196,"end":7399.765,"text":"中科院花這麼多都還不如人意民間的力量或者他的創新科技都還可以高於中科院我們想知道的是民間到底是什麼樣的創新科技可以比中科院花了這麼多錢研發出來剛剛林林總總念的這些比他還要好這個部分因為時間的關係麻煩再給我們一些相關的資料這個部分我們持續可能還會再討論因為"},{"start":7411.152,"end":7437.622,"text":"部長無人機的預算被凍結如果今天我們有這些創新的想法DIU也要成立了那目前我們採購的這些無人機可能都是比較過時甚至可能他可能不符我們的需求這些我們是不是現在各軍種要買的這些預算是不是也應該要暫停讓他好的進來你有AI的技術引進或者其他因為民間顯然已經有了你才會認為說會比我們中科院的還要好嗎"},{"start":7440.163,"end":7448.248,"text":"我覺得我們需要扶植民間自我產能的這個提升我覺得這個案還是有效還是請委員多能夠支持因為我們如果不提升他們的這個部長我不是說不支持民間的這樣的一個量能而是說你現在已經有一些創新的科技如果它可以直接加進來我們就不會先買過時的然後以後還要再買新的"},{"start":7468.001,"end":7491.735,"text":"這樣對我們來說我們的預算有限的情況之下其實我們只要讓我們中科院或者相關的民間企業可以清楚的說明我們的無人機到底優勢在哪裡甚至比俄烏戰爭實際有實戰經驗的還要好的情況之下我們去買這些不是更好嗎這部分是我們在這裡特別提出來是不是部長可以去考量"},{"start":7492.515,"end":7497.879,"text":"我們支持在所有無人機採購的相關預算可是既然你有新的科技創新包括剛剛AI說我們是以人為本我們會這樣控制在它不去傷害人這不是我們能控制的我想現在的科技或未來的科技它會怎麼衍生我們不曉得可是我們就現在務實面來看我們就講現在就好了好不好好"},{"start":7516.314,"end":7544.903,"text":"好那請部長再提供相關的資訊是謝謝那部長我還要一個資料就是我們上一次有說快期專案的部分我要的不是我要的不是你採購的過程而是在那個艦艇在無人艇為什麼人家可以兩百萬六百萬可以做出來我們卻需要六千萬這個部分希望可以清楚的給我們所有委員會或者甚至我們所有的委員可以知道詳細的部分"},{"start":7546.283,"end":7547.964,"text":"主席麻煩請部長有請部長"},{"start":7572.17,"end":7595.409,"text":"是 陳委員好部長好其實關於這個DIU我們這個論壇很早我們在2016年2017年那時候我們有邀請陳委員陳永剛將軍一起來來參與關於這個創新生態圈的討論那專業圈已經過了七八年了那很高興今天可以看到說我們在國會可以共同來去談這個議題來 下一位"},{"start":7598.973,"end":7618.673,"text":"那我們看到國防部提供的報告說是善用民間新創技術及能量那採用對外徵集的方式來鼓勵國內的這個新創企業投入國防領域那這邊有提到說創新小組將以國軍建案程序進行籌獲所以我們知道說傳統的採購過程是非常的冗長的"},{"start":7620.615,"end":7641.956,"text":"美國的DIU之所以能夠有現在的成效那是為什麼那是因為它有OTA的機制在那OTA讓美國國防部能夠去避免掉傳統的這個繁瑣的聯邦籌貨的規範在所以說他們可以跟企業的彈性的簽訂商業合約那這樣還可以大幅度的提升它的無貨的效率"},{"start":7642.757,"end":7671.997,"text":"那其實OTA的機制我們來看從2016年開始剛好是跟這個DIU正式的來去成立在美國成立的時候才開始因為國防授權法去允許它擴大使用OTA的方式所以美國國防部它提供用OTA簽約的方式它的金額是呈現爆炸式的成長那我們這邊有看到從2016年它是0.76億美金它到2028年是到20億美金那這還不是最新的這個data出來"},{"start":7672.737,"end":7688.835,"text":"我們知道說這種類似OTA的這種機制國防部是不是要考慮一下來去採購來去思考一下建制更靈活的採購機制我們講的是更靈活的採購機制剛才我們提到幾位委員有提到說這個不夠可能有些不夠好"},{"start":7689.255,"end":7709.472,"text":"但是問題是我們要更多元多種類量也很重要這樣包含二無戰爭其實二無戰爭我們用的不是最好不見得是最強是什麼定義最好是什麼定義我可能是在每一個不同的戰場環境下他必須要最適應我想這還是狀況在在這邊那我們希望今天我們討論這一個DIU我們要討論他從源頭開始的機制"},{"start":7713.675,"end":7720.14,"text":"我想請教一下,類似美國的OTA的這種加速創新制度的這種採購方式的引進目前的狀況是什麼樣?"},{"start":7722.121,"end":7746.173,"text":"跟委員報告,我想你要了解國防部的困難那我想如果建案的程序如果不做的話那麼沒有符合這個立法院監督的這個要求的話這個部分很容易會引起質疑那我們現在做的話如果能夠做就是我們盡量的採急迫性建案的方式但是還是要取得立法院的同意這樣子謝謝"},{"start":7747.654,"end":7773.852,"text":"那我想就是盡量把美國的資訊我來跟大家分享那第二個部分DIU為什麼能夠這種創新的這種小組能夠存活下來還有包含武器獲得的流程的一個改善那我想大家應該知道說像是緊急能力的獲取軟體籌貨中階系統的籌貨等等它是讓新聞化能夠制度化那我當然知道一開始很難一定會有很多不同的質疑聲但是不代表說"},{"start":7774.713,"end":7782.365,"text":"我們在創新的這個過程中不能夠嘗試嗎?這為什麼要找文能部長?文能部長就是說希望在過去可能"},{"start":7783.413,"end":7807.178,"text":"在舊有的體制或者是他們的訓練過程認為說我們要執行要把這種傳統文化或者是這種制度存留下來但是無能部長能夠做的是不是思考說除了這個文化之外有沒有其他看看我們吧其他的國家我們的友邦如果美國有類似的做法的時候是不是可以參考如果不符合國情當然可以不用這個部分部長可不可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":7808.129,"end":7833.302,"text":"我們有提到一個公開徵集解決方案的一個概念那如果說認為可以作為引進的一個基礎的話我們會在政府採購網這邊徵求這些相關的科技解決方案那如果有必要的話呢那我們現在有工業發展基金有委託的案子"},{"start":7833.622,"end":7861.207,"text":"那也許我們用公約發展基金來提供這些委託案那但是我想我們要的不是一個拿出來只是一篇報告我們要的就是立即能夠加以運用的一個一些案子所以我想那但是我們最後中科院如果最後做了系統整合之後那麼或者是構改以後或性能提升之後或者是相關已經可以進入了這個量產的這個"},{"start":7863.967,"end":7864.288,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7888.925,"end":7897.573,"text":"我認為不見得說什麼事情都一定是要學習其他國家那不同的部分還是可以來去考量一下"},{"start":7898.376,"end":7924.833,"text":"委員剛剛講的OTA這個我非常中會議員這邊非常認同那我也跟委員報告未來我們所有的新制的裝備在有了DIU之後其實它在第一架比如說無人機好了它量產的第一架和最後一架它中間一定是不斷的update不會是從頭到尾就是一樣這就是OTA大概的概念我們會不斷的引進新技術不斷的在整個量產的過程中間去讓它性能不斷的提升"},{"start":7925.503,"end":7947.511,"text":"好 謝謝那除了無人機啦我們這些高科技的這些軍用商規等等其實我們要思考就是說它DIU的過程中它在研擬的東西不是所謂只有高科技的應用有些高效率的應用就是說它可能是一個很簡單的一個組件一個零件它可以改變它整個這個生態的體系"},{"start":7948.931,"end":7977.614,"text":"那不見得是一定就是所謂的高科技人才他可能是在其他領域生物界、工程界或者是在軟體工程等等這都有可能我說我們希望當我們在討論這一個DIU的時候最好是不要把它只限縮在於無人機AI因為我看到今天許多委員都不斷在強調這一點那其實DIU它所應用的所採購的技術不見得是武器還有技術甚至是還有流程管理"},{"start":7978.334,"end":7982.436,"text":"國防部將成立台版的DARPA這樣的說法是不是在這邊澄清一下台灣的這個DIU跟DARPA有什麼不同"},{"start":8007.835,"end":8027.652,"text":"大PAR是那種未來先進科技可能要花10年或20年的那一種叫大PAR它那個要美國這樣的國家才有辦法有那個能力跟資源去投入一個這麼長期然後這麼多的預算那我們沒有這樣子的一個資源所以我們應該是美國的這個DIU"},{"start":8031.616,"end":8044.473,"text":"所以美國不但有這個DAPA、DIU還有DIO這些相關很多,那我們覺得是他們的其中一個DIU的這個項目,也就是成熟的解決方案這樣子"},{"start":8045.044,"end":8066.323,"text":"對,國防部提到說是負責創新概念評估引進民間成熟科技所以這個剛才部長的這個答詢我覺得很好我想讓民間也知道說我們在做的不是重新發明輪子他們有這個高等的這個技術的研究我們也要有,不是這樣子的我們是希望能夠有更成熟的科技來進入我們的這個市場"},{"start":8067.324,"end":8092.42,"text":"但是在國防部的報告裡面有提到說市場大家都知道我們台灣的市場其實特別是軍工的市場相對的小除了這一個我們自己的採購之外其實還是有一定的局限在不然現在這些新創的這些東西如果可以賣出去的話全部都賣到全世界的市場那我想說跟美方的積極交流的部分你們的計畫是什麼"},{"start":8093.778,"end":8110.339,"text":"我先講一下現在美國要求的資安認證就是CMMC嘛這一個體制之下那是在2019年有提出來那這一個網路安全成熟度的模型這個東西2019年提出來那過去是其實是分類的很"},{"start":8111.54,"end":8134.117,"text":"調整是從五個級別那現在是2.0百是三個級別那就是基礎防護、進階防護跟專家級防護我們要談的是當我們要進入美方的市場當我們要進入人家的國防產業鏈要接軌就是說我們不必要重新說我們要加入要加入但是如果我們最基本的資安的要求沒有達到的話"},{"start":8135.788,"end":8135.868,"text":"規格規制"},{"start":8144.919,"end":8166.854,"text":"臺灣不能夠我們自己做一版然後跟美國如果不通用的話那重新每次的這一種你申請的過程或者說你要進入他們的產業鏈的這種驗證的過程那就會非常長不知道部長在這方面我想請教一下現在FMC的2.0的架構出來之後我們現在已經積極的在跟美方做溝通"},{"start":8168.535,"end":8192.929,"text":"細節部分可能沒有辦法透露但是總之就是說有一個關鍵就是說到底在台灣這裡本地有沒有第三方的認證的一個機制那如果美國可以在這裡設立一個第三方認證的機制的話對於整個CMMC通過的認證所需要的費用會相當大幅度的減低這一點是很重要的我們現在正在跟他密切的在做研討當中"},{"start":8193.629,"end":8214.75,"text":"今年是2024年,2026年就全面實施,所以說我們是希望能夠先把這個強制的要求先釐清,這個沒有什麼機密性,就是你如果要進入他們的產業鏈,你就必須要達到這些東西,那這個可能未來要跟我們自己的……我現在只是說我們詳細的這個溝通狀況可能還是讓我有一點……"},{"start":8215.67,"end":8237.752,"text":"對 我們跟他再積極的再討論評估謝謝部長 我還是在強調就是包含如果我們直接進入他們的DIU的這種網站進去的這種視覺化或者是可親近性就很高了因為他是要跟民間商業他要有效率的能夠那剛剛這邊也寫了嘛要說你的語言"},{"start":8238.833,"end":8257.64,"text":"說不是國防部的語言,國防部的語言我說聽不太懂,因為我們是來自民間的。說我們的語言,說民間的語言,那這樣子我們的產業才能夠進去美國的市場。那所以包含未來,你說你這個系統上面,網路上面的這種情報上面的分享,或者是說你要讓更多民間的產業進來的話,說他們的語言。"},{"start":8261.121,"end":8261.341,"text":"徐巧欣委員"},{"start":8291.795,"end":8299.039,"text":"2020年行政院頒布了公務機關使用的產品包含軟體、硬體服務都禁止使用大陸廠牌的資訊、資通訊產品對吧?"},{"start":8322.483,"end":8342.794,"text":"剛才我們看到的是其實我們馬文君委員昭偉他也提到了貼牌的記錄器可以看到行車記錄器可以看到最近包含是逆變器、路由器、工業電腦然後包含華為產品還有我們的行車記錄器也都是內容裡面可能有中國大陸製的"},{"start":8343.695,"end":8343.935,"text":"管制的標籤"},{"start":8356.389,"end":8374.435,"text":"報告委員這是我們的這個資訊產品的管制標籤對對它是你們資訊產品的管制標籤也就是說這一台行車紀錄器其實是屬於我們國防部所有好那我們在淘寶上面可以看到淘寶上面賣這一台一模一樣的規格只要台幣310塊而且呢它還是中國大陸製作的"},{"start":8378.516,"end":8394.304,"text":"所以300多塊我們是不是不僅用到的是中國貨還被廠商坑錢了這一點你們要去思考看看喔再來請問一下部長這一個消息被披露之後請問圖上的JP現在去哪裡了"},{"start":8397.418,"end":8397.658,"text":"那這個去哪了嗎?"},{"start":8419.559,"end":8433.275,"text":"因為上面有貼管制標籤剛剛你們也說啦所以是國防部的財產啊我隨便一個人我可以去貼這種管制標籤嗎那就變為違法行為啊我現在要問這一批去哪啦因為這一批不是我們陸行部所採購的"},{"start":8434.434,"end":8462.091,"text":"那誰採購的呢?整個國防部委員好,我是連六市長連六市長我們上禮拜啊,這個委員您所在媒體上所揭露的這個行車記錄器的這個部分我們也做了一個全軍性的一個清查那目前我們是的確是有查到部分的行車記錄器這是這一台嗎?有沒有這一台?我現在先問這一台嗎?對,報委員有沒有這一台?我們要回去再查證已經都多少天了,你們還沒有查到"},{"start":8462.891,"end":8480.602,"text":"我們針對大陸的這些目前所製的這些行車記錄器我們是已經有先下架了這邊要先跟委員報告多少台下架了目前下架我們還有一些還沒有查完的是內建在裡面的這個目前下架了多少台目前下架大概是800部800部啊對好那這個還沒找到"},{"start":8483.879,"end":8502.714,"text":"我跟委員報告這一部我們當初是沒有看到這個資訊但是我們下架的裡面有沒有含這一部我們要回去查證要回去查證請給我答案好嗎是的因為呢我們買的通常啦我不去講說是跟這個我們辦公室聯絡的這一台通常我們買大概兩千多塊錢啦通常的價格是這樣"},{"start":8503.654,"end":8529.506,"text":"結果人家淘寶上賣310塊我們這不是很明顯被廠商坑了嗎我們還用了中國貨然後又被廠商坑錢這是很不得了的事情耶再來你們要去清查喔這一款等一下上面那張這一款是不是在消息披露之後有人員去把它轉移到了輕型戰車的輪速輪車上使用可不可以去搜尋這個訊息"},{"start":8532.025,"end":8554.59,"text":"報告委員：你們有沒有查過了這個洗車紀錄器它並不是這個紀錄器配附在這部對它是領了用了領了用了我知道但請問有沒有這一台它後來有沒有被轉移到輕型戰術輪車上使用你們有沒有查如剛剛連六次長跟委員說明的只要是錄製的我們查到了目前全面都下降那有沒有查嗎"},{"start":8556.631,"end":8576.763,"text":"委員說的這個這個是不是現在我們下架的裡面我們下去求證之後對然後你要去查什麼不會去轉用這一批如果他們還沒有被查到有沒有被移到了輕型戰術輪車上用領用的方式去處理這個你要去查可以嗎是的好可以齁好"},{"start":8579.224,"end":8604.795,"text":"那回到剛才講的這個護唱公司齁這個護唱公司110年的時候總計劃將近300萬的重酬案我們看一下他的官網裡面喔他的官網裡面呢其實寫的跟行車紀錄其實沒有什麼關係的在下一張其實剛才馬昭偉已經告訴大家了他們彼此之間的關係由易坤來進口許章月桃他們是母子的關係報關進口之後供貨給護唱護唱再投標給陸軍"},{"start":8608.677,"end":8609.597,"text":"所以我們買的時候我們都不用查倉"},{"start":8639.311,"end":8642.313,"text":"這一批我們在當初這個110年所採購的總共是1321個那這一塊的話當初的是基本產商資格限定並沒有說他必須要自製"},{"start":8655.023,"end":8673.757,"text":"那你們沒有要自治那你要如何檢查他是不是MIT或MIC那我們有廠商的資格還有這個相關的一個所以他說的算那還有我沒有去查查因為當初的時候是1325我們當初的時候有這個旅院的小組最後最後對商品檢驗對商品檢驗通通都有那所以你們去過這裡看過也去過這裡看過"},{"start":8676.459,"end":8691.152,"text":"因為他沒有在那裏製造,他沒有在這個場地製造他沒有在這個場地製造,那你知道他在那裏製造嗎?他當初說他的交貨地點,我們台灣還有馬來西亞台灣?台灣的哪一家?所以他的前面是誰交貨給他?誰交貨給護唱,護唱再賣給你們?你們在兩千多萬的行車記錄器裏面你們有沒有問?"},{"start":8700.397,"end":8727.358,"text":"這個是300萬這個議題裡面是1321部是300萬好 你有沒有問嘛我就問說你今天跟護唱嘛有沒有這件事嘛有那護唱你也知道了不是由護唱製作的嘛他是進口商嘛他是貿易商嘛那誰賣給他的你有在意這件事嗎有去查嗎那如果你沒有去查你怎麼知道他給你的東西不是貼牌的"},{"start":8729.082,"end":8730.583,"text":"部長,被列黑名單記錄的我們國防部來跟他們採購你覺得合理嗎?"},{"start":8756.651,"end":8782.508,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛已經說了如果我們查到的這個結果比如說像有地址或者是有這一些剛剛講的母子或這些關係的話我想我下去我會來檢討我們整個採購你們會檢討我給你看這件事情多嚴重來採購的時候採購拒絕往來生肖日是110年的4月8號看得到嗎右邊"},{"start":8785.626,"end":8804.201,"text":"陸軍後勤指揮部採購的時候是什麼本案於110年4月8號下定你把它列為拒絕廠商的黑名單的同時你跟人家下定有這種道理有這種事情你們都不知道回答一下好不好所有人都不講話是什麼意思啊"},{"start":8810.25,"end":8810.39,"text":"不是嗎?"},{"start":8831.866,"end":8850.056,"text":"你們沒有解約相關的一些方式嗎?不可能吧不要騙我們沒有看過政府採購法欸我說他4月8號被列為黑名單你們的報告單上面寫說在4月8號下訂這跟國人交代的過去嗎?部長"},{"start":8853.321,"end":8879.119,"text":"您是新任的部長,我不跟你追究,但是這個事情你有沒有覺得應該要查,而且很嚴重我下去回來了解是吧,這是很嚴重的事情吧你都被列拒絕廠商了,然後你還當天跟他下定代表你們整個國防部裡面你們前後你們是搞不清楚狀況,或者是有人在貪贓枉法我不想直接去定義說有人貪贓枉法,但是這件事情非常的奇怪"},{"start":8880.455,"end":8900.827,"text":"我想這個案子竟然在110年那個時候那我想我們就把這個案子調出來重新檢視一下好再來我們跟陸軍在詢問的時候我們得到的來的送給我們看的食品是長這樣跟我們剛剛來的那台不一樣來請問為什麼給我們看的所有的包含你們給我們的照片上面都沒有管制標籤"},{"start":8904.16,"end":8919.315,"text":"這一台這個在禮拜一的晚上1800到委員辦公室說明的時候啊因為這一台基本上目前是一個備品並沒有說它是有標籤在盒子上面盒子上不用貼在上面因為目前這一台它別台都要貼在上面這一台不用"},{"start":8919.835,"end":8921.036,"text":"請問一下為什麼前面的要貼在就是我們要貼在的是行車記錄器像這個不用嗎?"},{"start":8936.561,"end":8937.661,"text":"我最後要講一下你們所給我的"},{"start":8963.764,"end":8982.744,"text":"這份清單上面關於當初這個你們的計劃清單就是最後決標的這一份因為抱歉我時間不夠我沒有放在上面你們有給我們一份是這個行車紀錄器它的計劃清單但是呢我們有拿到一份舊的就是"},{"start":8983.184,"end":9008.257,"text":"還沒有決標的時候的計劃清單他上面寫得很清楚本採購屬於經濟部投審會公告具敏感性或國安資安疑慮業務之範疇的服務採購廠商不得為大陸地區廠商第三地區廠商含陸資成分廠商及經濟部投審會公告的資訊服務業者都有公開都不可以使用"},{"start":9008.837,"end":9032.21,"text":"但是你們在最後決標裡面你們怎麼寫的你知道嗎我唸給你聽你們最後決標的時候寫說本案禁止使用中國大陸地區產品或僱用中國大陸地區人士等等的那可以終止契約為非屬採購清單主體之周邊配件如電池、電源、線材等因無違密顧慮且產地"},{"start":9035.311,"end":9059.284,"text":"限制取得不易顧不在此限我最後詢問一下我們的顧部長你們在合約上面寫這樣你們在最後的這個清單上寫這樣你覺得合理嗎需要我再念一次嗎如果我剛剛講不清楚的話我剛剛聽起來的話應該是說他沒有涉及自通訊產品的這個部對所以他的意思是說這個裡面的配件、電池、電源、線材"},{"start":9060.425,"end":9079.984,"text":"可以不在此限意思就是說我們使用中國大陸製的零件的行車記錄器是可以的請問是可以的嗎問題是現在的標案應該是都一律禁止大陸製對啊但你們上面是這樣寫啊部長我需要拿給你看嗎這是你們給我的資料"},{"start":9080.704,"end":9105.262,"text":"這之前的還是之前的?110年嘛 對不對所以你們要去清查後續因為後來規定改了嘛改了之後你們還在繼續用嘛所以你們應該要去清查我不管是後來才改的規定還是怎麼樣的但既然規定已經改了你們是不是過往的你們就要全面去清查說有沒有類似的這個情況如果有的話要下架嘛部長您同意嗎?"},{"start":9106.751,"end":9121.971,"text":"我看我去清查一下剛剛委員講了110年的這個個案然後另外就是說看什麼時候去改這個相關的這些規定部長我再跟你講一次我再跟你講更清楚一點在原本的在原本的"},{"start":9122.552,"end":9149.588,"text":"另外一個還沒有決標的計劃清單上面他很明確的寫到說不可以他是屬於資安一律範疇所以不可以使用大陸相關的這個用品但是你到了最後決標的時候那幾條被拿掉了部長如果有需要我事後可以給你看資料因為我今天時間不夠所以是不是最後因為我時間已經到了超過很久了部長多少時間給你可以完成全部的清查給我們一個時間吧"},{"start":9151.277,"end":9167.642,"text":"您是說所有整件事情整個行車記錄器的事情包含馬昭偉剛剛問的包含剛剛那個管制新單包含這個包含是我剛剛所說的一切你們需要多久的時間可以查出來查明真相至少給我們一個書面報告做說明吧包委員我們"},{"start":9172.56,"end":9200.067,"text":"下去的我們做一個確實的把案情釐清和想查是不是兩個禮拜跟國防部報告謝謝委員好 謝謝剛剛提供給徐小溪委員的那一台沒有查是因為你們只查行政車輛沒有查戰術車輛那相關的規定錄製的產品很早就有規定了這個部分沒關係你們到時候一邊查完以後再"},{"start":9202.11,"end":9202.83,"text":"主席好 有請顧部長請部長"},{"start":9231.744,"end":9231.904,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9247.965,"end":9269.513,"text":"我們是絕對支持國防自主根據國防法22條自主為國軍獲得武器系統優先的策略那麼這次今天講到這個新成立的這個在整平室底下的DIU這個單位我們提出了從根據您的報告內容我們從前提原則目標方法手段"},{"start":9270.58,"end":9288.74,"text":"提出一個建議重點就是國防產業的供應鏈透過廠商資格與級別認證尤其是滴滴要確實以及保密協定甚至在解約以後他能不能把我們共同研發的成果拿去外銷或是轉到其方這個在我們的所謂的"},{"start":9291.206,"end":9315.279,"text":"在簽署協定、協約裡面要能夠律定清楚那這樣子就說我們信得過這些廠商確實跟中科院能夠完整的合作那另外一個建議國防產業院的關鍵單位必須要全程參與我講關鍵技術並不是因為民間有了我就不要我們很怕未來發生過產業它出走它斷鏈"},{"start":9316.738,"end":9338.241,"text":"可能會脫鉤斷鏈那中科院這中間就產生一個gap所以我們合作的構想我們以美軍所講的第一個是adaptable可以運用第二個是可以負責accountable信得過第三個是affordable那這三個前提下我們來支持這個DIU的做法"},{"start":9340.382,"end":9366.208,"text":"過去在2019年我們國防就是科技部當時科技部現在國防部已經成立一個5年50億的學研中心那麼建立技術包括臺大、清大、交大、成大、中興、中山等這裡面有很多就是參與所謂無人系統包括無人機、水下的還有一些反制的東西這裡面就涉及到了很多的是通訊裝備"},{"start":9368.041,"end":9389.035,"text":"所以我的建議就是在我們這個單位新成立以後．可以有整評師或中科院．同時邀請這七所國立大學的學研中心共同來參與．提供他們過去這三年到四年中間研發的結果．用這個經驗用他們來對民間的廠商做對口．比較方便前面這個"},{"start":9391.376,"end":9418.022,"text":"我們講的陳冠群委員講了所以要用民間的話來講話我現在是擔心民間的廠商講的話我們中科院在他的規格書面上他不見得聽得懂所以會有認知的落差而不是誰對誰錯所以用這個新成立的單位來召集一個會議把七所國立大學他們都是學研中心都是國防學研中心都有涉及到水下水上地面無人包括通訊裝備這是一個很好的平台"},{"start":9420.728,"end":9437.362,"text":"我們借重了美國成功的經驗在下面成功的因素但美國的成功因素並不代表是完全適合我們所以我們應該怎麼做呢創新小組創新新概念要站立發展相輔相成那居民科技合一創新運用"},{"start":9438.976,"end":9459.346,"text":"最主要就是中科院跟民間現在要有一個對口單位當然在整平市這個底下我建議這個底下的新成立人員你必須要有幾個有工程背景甚至在實驗室做過因為你這個TRL3幾乎實驗室的過程因為民間發展技術很快它很多是外面導入的"},{"start":9460.386,"end":9489.866,"text":"現在的無人機系統尤其是一個主流趨勢我們講的無人包括空中的、地面的、水下的甚至這些國立大學他買了為人系統在做學研他們還要去向這個速發部就是以前NCC去申請頻道評官我也曾經跟這些無人機的製造廠商參加研討會他們交給國軍的是載台尤其是數量很大的這種輕型載台基本上是消耗型的"},{"start":9491.647,"end":9506.459,"text":"在暫時避免操作手在第一線偵查牌甚至搜索班都不要出去了無人把畫面傳回來至於剛剛您講的AI技術當然我們講說Main in the loop, on the loop, out of the loopAI要結合ROE"},{"start":9508.18,"end":9525.294,"text":"要授權那這裡面要double check俄烏戰爭用無人機非常方便城市相距30里100里不是烏克蘭就是俄國看了就打但是以哈戰爭你就發現了無人機的效益就沒那麼大了雖然導入AI"},{"start":9526.255,"end":9549.618,"text":"在一個大樓裡面有哈馬斯兩個人以色列對不起就炸彈飛彈打了40個老百姓一起死這個時候AI的效益就不太容易發揮那我們防衛作戰我們希望在拒止在海岸線以外所以在中科院發展出來的或是美方提供的中長城的做預警這個效益是很大但是屬於這種消耗型的國產型的"},{"start":9551.019,"end":9575.602,"text":"當然它的成本會比中科院低我們也接受這個我這邊提出建議的所有的廠商都提出了他提供你的是載台載具通信頻道頻寬傳輸速度我們聯六啊通知次長室跟這個自通電軍還有這個所謂的速發部啊NCC啊要去談我國軍能夠獲得多少頻寬多少頻道如果在暫時"},{"start":9577.199,"end":9593.697,"text":"我們國內的一般民間的通訊的比方講中華電信如果中斷了誰來提供這個補充即便我們跟這個英國的OneWeb簽了有700個地面站或是三個國外台但是能夠分給國軍使用的"},{"start":9594.338,"end":9622.025,"text":"在這邊不必講細部一定要提早定義就是說你有這麼多載台並不代表這麼多載台可以同步使用因為你的頻率控制台受限另外一個就是民用、商用、商規軍用不同的廠商交出來的準則教範一定要標準化這個東西是必須要統一的不然我們沒有實驗編裝你這些小東西都是給營機以下的操作手續單位"},{"start":9623.581,"end":9644.207,"text":"人員不會在前線犧牲但是你如果要這些東西要回送feedback到上一層或是上兩層長官去看他的判斷是不一樣的所以共同圖像、通訊頻道評判跟無人載胎的整合是我們發展一個很重要的一個過程跟手段這個要提早作業"},{"start":9646.997,"end":9662.503,"text":"剛才這個整評師並沒有講TRL的裡面的分工這個我們可以把裡面細節分工圖提供做參考不是光說1234到9做水平切割這裡面有很多是必須要重疊性質的那麼這個東西呢"},{"start":9664.645,"end":9691.067,"text":"我想在一個新成立單位他除了有專案管理這個合約管理最主要就是要有實驗室做過這種經驗的人一起參與這個計劃提供參考那麼最後的具體建議我們TR要是做國防科技驗證的門檻檢視民間公司的技術或專利實況那至於能不能跟中科院做完整的整合這個我們還要有摸索中科院有很多過去的計劃"},{"start":9692.068,"end":9699.104,"text":"承擔了很大的責任但不是中科院責任是因為軍總跟軍總跟中科院簽的是agreement"},{"start":9699.366,"end":9718.939,"text":"MOU．並不代表做需要改變．結果中科院前面這個時間．三、五年的研究成果．就白做了．就重新另起需求．這個將來都要定義清苦．中科院過去在三彈一金．關鍵開發系統整合經驗．我相信在DIU的指導下．將民間專業導入系統開發．會促成國防自主的發展．"},{"start":9723.395,"end":9739.827,"text":"關鍵技術發展從來沒有說一帆風順一定要接受失敗而且要有重置性絕對不是水平啊就是說劃線切割我把這個東西提供參考下面請這個部長或者是整評師長您來回答一下或中科院來回答一下"},{"start":9741.343,"end":9769.598,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛您講到TIL備變水準未來中科院和DIU中間最重疊的部分在TIL6當DIU引進一個新技術中科院在現有的關鍵技術的備變水準之上我必須按TIL6去發展出來我的原型模型這個原型模型展示給軍種看讓軍種去確認是不是符合他的作戰需求如果符合的話我們再進入工程發展的7到9的階段但是就像我剛剛講的"},{"start":9770.518,"end":9781.193,"text":"就算在進入工程發展7和8的時候有新的技術我就會不斷的去修正我的原型模型大概未來我們跟DIU的借階會在TIL6的部分"},{"start":9783.248,"end":9802.738,"text":"過去因為是有些美方技術不轉移不輸出或這個武器根本不賣所以中科院等於說從基礎開始研發但這個累積的成果不要中斷掉那麼能夠美國提供不管是軍售商售或者我們國內廠商有這個能力縮短這個研發時間進速整合這是我們是支持的"},{"start":9803.878,"end":9827.851,"text":"人才的培養還是很重要我特別要建議那尤其是在DIU裡面對專案管理還要加上一部分有科技背景做過實驗室的那可以他不必做主觀他提供一個客觀的這個建言這個是比較重要我相信我們今天在座裡面在美國實驗室待過的可能可能今天可能沒有人在場要了解到這個怎麼樣把實驗室的概念轉換到"},{"start":9829.6,"end":9838.906,"text":"變成一個可製造、可整合．最後變成Deliverable．可以交出的貨．而且這個東西還是初期產品．就像你剛剛講的．要不斷升級的．"},{"start":9841.132,"end":9863.197,"text":"再回應委員的意見就是我上禮拜花了一個禮拜的時間從中科院所有的研發人員裡面挑了兩個人一個是無人機的一個是AI的這兩個都是年輕的工程師都有博士的學位也是我們中科院未來研發很核心的關鍵的年輕人那我這兩個人支援到DIU就是要協助DIU有相關的工程背景去一起去審視現有的技術"},{"start":9865.442,"end":9891.041,"text":"補充一下就是因為現在七個國立大學的學研中心禮拜一才李世光前經濟部長他在召集會議還在談他們研發的成果不要跟我們做平行浪費掉了那麼整評師或中科院可以請他們一起學研的中心把他們研發成果導入就來support你那配合國內的產業的技術這樣做整合可以更節省時間"},{"start":9892.162,"end":9918.531,"text":"有有,學研中心的預算比較不多啦,但是我們對學研中心的發展,我們納入這個平台是沒有問題的。跟委員報告,我們由我們的國科會配合剛剛委員所指導的七大學研中心,我們一年都編十億,我們跟國科會跟學研中心,那我們會遵從委員的指導,把學研中心的他們研究的成果打入我們"},{"start":9919.671,"end":9943.701,"text":"整合到我們的DIU的一個平台、一個系統裡面來統一運用以上報告因為DIU這個整合是非常重要本席站在這邊也支持我們也提出一個建議就是說希望在這個案子整合人才培養看到這個整個這個國內工合還有科技整合的進展我們希望這個整平市每三個月來做一個提報"},{"start":9948.112,"end":9973.202,"text":"委員指導就是我們未來三個月就跟您去做一次提報那我們的創新小組一定就是希望能夠引進民間的成熟科技在軍事領域做創新的運用那在這個部分您剛才指導的有關於在過程當中能夠引進有一些相關工程背景、科技背景還有法律專業的這些人才我們都會納入一起來提供我們做相關的參考和諮詢以上謝謝,謝謝部長"},{"start":9978.882,"end":9980.082,"text":"請部長還有軍醫局蔡局長"},{"start":10018.427,"end":10025.412,"text":"國防部主管下,除了有很多軍職人員以外,還有很多文職及約聘僱人員。"},{"start":10027.373,"end":10045.786,"text":"所以,其實不管他的職務或身份,那我們基於希望有一個起碼的勞動權益保障的立場那,譬如大家是期待說,你只要有勞動事實,就可以實際實領那這也是被認為其實是最低的底線,部長同不同意?"},{"start":10054.59,"end":10071.376,"text":"這段時間我一直受到陳情我們軍醫局底下其實有很多的醫療人員那他可能不是只是醫生或護士、護理師比方說像是他們分析血液、尿液的這個醫檢師也負責X光的放射師或者是藥師"},{"start":10072.856,"end":10096.347,"text":"那他們也會有夜間輪班的需求他們也要值夜班所以他們的勞動的事實非常非常的明確但如果你是一個醫檢師如果你是在教育部下面的教學醫院或者是在退輔會下的容醫或者是如果你在衛福部下的部立醫院上班的話我們要恭喜他們可以拿到足額的報酬"},{"start":10097.677,"end":10116.826,"text":"但如果這些醫檢師他如果在軍醫院上班很抱歉他的報酬是無法足而領取的我們來看一下數字部長你看一下數字如果今天是一個醫檢師大夜班他值大夜一個月25天台大的基數是比較好有1萬7部立跟榮總是1萬2軍醫院也是1萬2但"},{"start":10122.875,"end":10146.489,"text":"很慘的事情是布里軍醫院的醫檢師職大業只要是夜班夜班的這個費用就沒有辦法施領他會被打折甚至打到85折賴清德總統說軍工就要加薪3%但這個我們一吃就吃人家15%而這種陋習我跟部長報告其實已經超過10年了那為什麼會出現這個狀況很簡單"},{"start":10149.721,"end":10169.472,"text":"因為我們軍醫下面的醫管單位他的夜班費的請領的方式自己吝嗇了一個請領的方式是要所用三節獎金來請領不像剛剛說的其他主管機關下面的醫院喔他們都是可以按月來領取依照績效獎金來領取我們自己"},{"start":10171.227,"end":10191.69,"text":"訂了一個用三節獎金領取所以一年就領三次但問題是三節獎金對不起有一個上限所以只要你的夜班職業班的狀況超過這個上限超過的部分就算你沒發生過就算你沒發生過所以一個醫檢師常常一個月算下來幾乎少了兩千塊以上"},{"start":10193.092,"end":10213.292,"text":"這就是長年的狀況我要問部長部長你覺得你聽到這個狀況我相信你也是第一次聽到但這個狀況你覺得有沒有要改進的空間或你的立場如何各位報告是不是他有兩種一個是夜班費跟另外一個是疫情的獎助金"},{"start":10214.794,"end":10230.38,"text":"對那我現在講的都是夜班費如果是夜班費的話那麼夜班費應該是他有實際的值班那就我們就足額的發給那如果依照這樣子來來發給的話那我想"},{"start":10232.421,"end":10251.418,"text":"只要沒有超過行政院的公立醫療機構人員獎那個發給要點的話應該是可以足以發給的在這個部分部長你講到一個重點其實是因為我們相比於在國防部下軍醫局相對其他的部會我們現在是用依請獎金的方式來發給"},{"start":10252.879,"end":10279.591,"text":"所以是用三節獎金來發放所以就會遇到三節獎金上限的問題那我們一直跟國防部來要求這是一個不合理的狀況因為有很多的醫檢師他們的工會都來陳情明明他們該給他們卻都沒有給他們而且這不是限短期喔這已經搞了十年了喔但對不起軍醫局不理就是不理不理就是不理所以我今天不得不我要在這個地方部長在這邊局長在這邊"},{"start":10281.857,"end":10308.491,"text":"我們要不要改變這個狀況我覺得這是最基本的吧跟委員報告一下因為我們的這個疫情獎金的發放是經過行政院核定的所以如果我們的疫情獎金有一個上限如果整個要修的話就變成整個所有軍醫的軍醫獎金全部都要再修那我們這個陳情其實我們不是不理但是因為會有 最終會有 局長不要推給行政院啊"},{"start":10309.051,"end":10332.059,"text":"不是不是 跟委員報告最近會有這個問題是因為有一些軍醫院因為他的業績績效很好所以才會到上限如果沒有到上限他其實都可以實領到但是因為會超過上限所以他的總額因為有一個上限所以才會大家覺得說好像是他的夜班費被排擠到了其實 局長不是好像啊就是啊"},{"start":10332.959,"end":10360.748,"text":"他夜班的勞動事實就是消失了啊不是好像啊我們會按照委員的指導我們會把以後的我們的計算方式就是福利金的計算方式會把夜班會優先計算夜班會算完以後再來算其他的福利金局長很簡單嘛我們就比照其他的醫院他們都是按月的發放不是一定要搞到疫情獎金的三節獎金才能發放嘛每個月做多少很清楚都可以看在眼前我就可以拿多少"},{"start":10361.414,"end":10383.145,"text":"沒有人要去多要只是給他們應得的每個月就按方法反正別人都可以做到為什麼其實軍院做不到呢報告委員其實我們每個月計算也是每個月在計算但是你是三節才人家領一次嘛所以人家是算下來以後發現這跟我每個月該領的不一樣嘛有出入嘛甚至可能少了兩千塊每個月少了兩千塊啊"},{"start":10384.285,"end":10407.335,"text":"另外跟委員報告其實我們的會醫護人員的聘僱人員的總薪資都比其他醫院還高都比其他醫院高你這態度是不對的嘛沒有不是這個意思不是說我今天待遇比別人高我待遇有沒有真的比別人高這是另外一回事你明明說要給人家的績效獎金夜班費講好的你就是沒有給嘛"},{"start":10408.816,"end":10434.299,"text":"這跟你什麼其他比別人高什麼關係?報告委員我們會按照您的指導業班會以後我們的疫情獎金業班會都會單獨優先計算不是我說第一個不是優先計算我就問你說能不能夠承諾一定足額發放按月足額發放就像他們在其他部會的醫檢師、X光檢驗師、放射師他們可以受到的待遇一樣嗎?可以"},{"start":10434.919,"end":10462.048,"text":"可以嗎這是可以承諾的事情是是是好那多少時間可以把它改過來兩個月我們現在已經在做了兩個月可不可以把它改過來應該是可以兩個月之後我們這些非醫護人員的夜班費就可以按月足額拿到沒有問題按月這個我們還要經由行政院因為整個要休要一段時間如果要休你不要推給行政院你們把方案拿出來"},{"start":10462.988,"end":10484.315,"text":"行政院會盡快,我們可以來跟行政院來講,要盡快合定,行政院會同意你們這個把醫護人員的夜班費給吃掉的方法嗎?報告委員,我們會按照委員的指導,我們會每個月單獨來計算,阿也會跟行政院來做,可不可以每個月直接每個月就發放,就像其他,就像其他的主管單位的醫院一樣嗎?"},{"start":10484.935,"end":10502.325,"text":"就比照嘛這這麼簡單的事情報告委員我們因為我們會跟行政院做這個溝通希望每個月來發放但是因為它整體牽涉到整個要修我們還要一段時間那這樣好不好一個月後給我方案兩個月承諾把它改好可以嗎"},{"start":10503.547,"end":10526.703,"text":"我們盡快一個月給我方案兩個月把它改好是是可以嗎可以至少一定要要求要足額發放可以足額領取這最基本的吧是這不是優先喔是足額領取喔我不管你優先不優先喔就是足額不可以少一塊錢是我們按照委員的指導來做好那接下來我要請數發部卓市長"},{"start":10535.671,"end":10554.936,"text":"這樣我不知道你有沒有看到上週其實有一位美國一個亞太議題的專家他在外交家的雜誌上面有發表了一篇專文這篇專文其實又談到了台灣的海欄的問題那這篇文章他談了很多內容他最後有一個很重要的建議這個建議就是他認為台灣應該要將電纜認定為關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":10559.059,"end":10588.19,"text":"為什麼今天還是要跟圈市長來討論這件事情我跟你說我已經像收集七龍珠一樣我已經問過陳建仁院長問過國土辦問過國安局問過NCC問過海巡署也問過中華電信大家都說他們同意也覺得應該要把臺馬的海嵐列為CI但現在一直態度曖昧的是數法部市長你覺得呢"},{"start":10589.551,"end":10599.781,"text":"不管是國外不管是國內大家都認為臺馬海岸的重要性尤其過去被破壞的程度尤其是現在大家看到像在聯合力艦行動裡面他們就是針對我們的離島的攻擊應該要列為C.I這樣"},{"start":10608.095,"end":10627.23,"text":"跟委員報告就是說一個基礎建設能不能列為關鍵就是我們能不能把它列為CI那有幾個要件市長我時間不夠我跟你說在之前所有的質詢裡面我們都把他的這個要件包括他的定義全部都拿出來了所以這些所有其他部會的人都同意他應該是CI"},{"start":10628.511,"end":10654.198,"text":"對,但是其他部會可能沒有我們清楚比如說臺馬海嵐跟臺京海嵐對我來說臺馬海嵐它的微波備援是充足的但是其他的海嵐可能微波備援不是充足的市長,我覺得不一定是充足的之前有講過你們是用了微波但是這個微波如果在緊急的時候或者是遇到被封鎖的時候我們可能要把頻寬優先交給"},{"start":10658.147,"end":10675.399,"text":"軍方來使用到時候還是不是充足的這是打上一個大大的問號包括微波電源它的頻寬跟我們一般的海嵐的頻寬就是有很大的差別包括你的養護包括你的管理上面的作業都跟一般列為CIA的是不一樣的"},{"start":10676.46,"end":10704.181,"text":"跟委員報告,微波的部分呢軍方的微波跟我們的微波是分開的那我沒辦法對軍方的微波發表任何意見但是如果您到微波站去看就會發現在我們現在中華電線的微波並跟軍方是分開的但是海纜的確裡面有部分的部分的海纜是提供軍方使用的所以次長現在意思是數發部還是不願意列為CI要不要列為CI每年會"},{"start":10705.843,"end":10724.14,"text":"每年會依程序準時在辦理我第一次質詢陳建仁院長是在去年3月已經經過17個月了你們的評估是怎樣就我知道國土辦也希望列入NCC也希望列入行政院也希望列入大家都希望列入國安局也覺得該列入"},{"start":10725.208,"end":10741.284,"text":"只有你們覺得我們沒有覺得不應該列入但是我們是認為你要按照規定的辦法市長就是你要列為CI是他沒有任何備援的時候不是不只是這樣子吧列為CI的定義不是只有他完全沒有備援吧我們要不要來看一下CI的定義"},{"start":10742.526,"end":10755.998,"text":"CIA的定義不是沒有被援才能夠被列入CIA按照你這邊寫的它有分數跟重要性是那我們就是根據它的這樣我做一個建議我自己覺得我沒有要求所有的國內海岸都要列入但"},{"start":10757.741,"end":10783.007,"text":"臺馬海嵐或跟離島之間的海嵐我覺得有沒有一些方式可以把他的特殊性給標示出來我們在通盤檢討中我們也會納入考慮但是我沒辦法在這邊承諾你特定的海嵐是不是在下次會列為西亞因為就像你剛剛列的他每一條他有他的分數跟評估的方式那根據分數跟評估方式市長那我要跟你說這件事情不是我第一次講我們已經提了17個月了"},{"start":10783.907,"end":10812.416,"text":"如果我們評估一條海欄要搞17個月搞不定態度還猶豫不定我會對於關鍵基礎設施CIA我們會對於這個會對我們政府、國安的態度我們有很大的存疑啊我們評估是每年來評估所以並沒有猶豫不定那今年要評估到什麼時候會按照國土辦的程序來辦會評估到什麼時候按照國土辦的程序那個主秀再給我一分鐘會什麼時候我現在不知道要回去查"},{"start":10813.257,"end":10839.937,"text":"那我...是不是問國土辦?沒有,評估西安美良...為什麼你可以用說你現在不知道這個態度?這不是你們主管的嗎?那我請那個任性事來回答評估西安美良...那時間的關係齁...這不是你們主管的嗎?你們...你們討論完以後再提供給委員相...相關的資訊...市長我這個態度我沒有辦法接受啊因為...市長我覺得這個態度我沒有辦法接受你要不然你給我一個明確的時間我跟你說因為西安美兩年才評估一次你17個月沒有得到答案是正常的嗎?市長"},{"start":10843.22,"end":10849.689,"text":"你確定要這個回答嗎?我手上的資料就是這樣嘛所以當這17個月裡面發生了聯合力艦行動當他們在維馬組"},{"start":10854.895,"end":10855.035,"text":"市長 市長"},{"start":10887.003,"end":10887.583,"text":"接下來請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":10918.078,"end":10938.885,"text":"主席、各位委員,有請部長請部長是,政委部長好,辛苦了今天的主題是一個非常重要的主題"},{"start":10941.143,"end":10951.208,"text":"這裡面特別提到為了因應、為了適應戰場變化以及建立強韌嚇阻戰力,國防部參考美國"},{"start":10952.605,"end":10978.462,"text":"的國防創新單位的作法在今年2月1號當時部長還沒有上任成立國防創新小組負責創新概念評估及引進民間成熟科技協助提升整體防衛能量當然我不清楚美國的國防創新單位當然國防部應該要去了解"},{"start":10981.277,"end":10997.893,"text":"那我們看這個你的報告裡面國防科技研發體系把它列了三個民間學術機構中科研創新小組這樣的一個"},{"start":10999.554,"end":11027.995,"text":"然後國防創新小組說主要任務有創新概念發展戰略需求確認民間技術產能調研公開徵集與方案評估導入建設稠厚我們看這個國防部的報告裡面你現在把這個創新國防創新小組放在可能部長還不是那麼清楚"},{"start":11029.232,"end":11032.889,"text":"放在這個整平思：國防部的"},{"start":11034.48,"end":11063.184,"text":"很多師裡面的其中一個整評師部長回去再看一下整評師的出入規程裡面有寫整評師負責哪些業務都有寫然後成員包括軍職、文職、聘僱人員然後七分創新作戰發展創產業條件評估軍林科技運用三組執行各項工作"},{"start":11065.049,"end":11092.732,"text":"最主要就是說這一個這麼重要的這麼重要的為了適應戰場變化建立強韌嚇阻戰力參考美國的這個國防創新單位然後成立這個國防創新小組然後現在是放在整平室這個我是只是請部長回去評估啦"},{"start":11094.222,"end":11112.753,"text":"請部長回去評估到底他能不能達成這樣的一個創新國防創新小組設置在整平思能不能達成原來的目的這個請部長回去好好的去評估因為"},{"start":11115.404,"end":11142.62,"text":"我們國家本來就有國防部之下本來就設了行政法人國家中商科學研究院就設在那裏提升國防科技能力建立自主國防工業拓展國防及軍用通用技術設了這個國科院國科院他的業務範圍很廣"},{"start":11145.472,"end":11165.874,"text":"然後呢國科院的董事長就是國防部長然後還包含了這個經濟部的次長國科會的副主委當然的董事所以他這個是一個非常完備的然後一個這麼重要的"},{"start":11167.923,"end":11185.141,"text":"國防創新小組然後再一個整評師就我這個三十年的老公務員然後也學法的跟部長當然我比你差很多啦這樣的一個我是懷疑啦"},{"start":11186.721,"end":11209.119,"text":"我是懷疑他能夠達成當初這麼重大的一個任務所以這個部分就請部長回去再跟相關的包括國科院、國家中商科學研究院一起去討論包括其他的部會、國科會一起去討論能不能應該怎麼樣去推動好不好"},{"start":11212.583,"end":11215.204,"text":"整評師的這些君子人員或是聘僱人員到底他們的專業如何?"},{"start":11233.596,"end":11255.603,"text":"我只是跟委員報告一點就是說委員看的是一個階層的問題我看的是一個任務導向的問題那不管他設置在哪裡那如果他的這個任務能夠直接受我直接的督管然後完成他相關的任務這是我比較看重的不管他設在什麼樣的一個階層"},{"start":11257.063,"end":11284.077,"text":"也許你是對的,也許國防部是對的,我沒有做定論,我只是讓你回去評估啦,好不好。是,好,了解,好,謝謝。我沒有去評論,我讓你去評估。好,這個上次,這個部長上任之後,我第一次跟你質詢的時候,就再次跟我過去質詢過前任的部長,也質詢過這個行政院院長,軍,精良的軍備,"},{"start":11285.717,"end":11313.977,"text":"要有專精的國軍這是我一直強調要有精良的軍備更要有專精的國軍但是我們一直缺少、缺法你看這個志願役不是在去年服兩年然後7000人離營像這個我們看這個志願役的實領的薪資二等兵三萬六、一等兵三萬八、上等兵三萬九"},{"start":11315.236,"end":11342.59,"text":"跟我們的勞工的平均薪資四萬六千多差很多但我如果我們從上士官跟軍官去做比較一樣一樣所以這個部分我們的這個能力真的是一直所以我因為主席站起來了這個部長我還是"},{"start":11345.08,"end":11370.748,"text":"再次的請你回去再好好的去評估這些我們的軍人也說習慣了反正就是這個人事行政總署或行政院而定很多東西都是要爭取的啦以前跟現在又不一樣啦所以這個部分請部長也回去去評估啦好不好是是好謝謝謝謝謝謝鄭委員"},{"start":11376.55,"end":11391.349,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席有請數位部政次跟"},{"start":11393.118,"end":11407.366,"text":"國防部顧部長鄭次先好了好請數位部好鄭次剛剛對於洪森翰委員的那個質詢我個人強烈的建議您可能需要好好的在質詢台上再一次的面對"},{"start":11408.626,"end":11430.603,"text":"雖然我不是很清楚洪森漢委員的質詢的內容不過您剛剛的態度已經超越了一個專業的部長或者是一個專業您現在代表的是數位部所應該回應的問題什麼叫做17個月沒有答沒有得到回應很正常您有沒有覺得剛剛的質詢的態度是錯誤的"},{"start":11434.136,"end":11450.202,"text":"報告委員我只是在描述國土辦在核定關鍵基礎設施是每兩年評估一次那如果洪森漢委員在提出提出他的意見的時候是在這兩次的中間那在下一次核定之前"},{"start":11451.883,"end":11472.902,"text":"我們絕對會重視所有立委的意見但是在下一次核定之前這一個期程並不會因為有立委的意見而能夠提前因為關鍵技術設施的核定它有既定的期程並不會因為新聞媒體的報導或是立委的質詢然後能夠更改這一個期程的設定"},{"start":11473.697,"end":11492.187,"text":"好你現在回應我覺得聽起來就能夠理解您帶著您的專業給予了正確的答案我知道您來自於民間剛剛我也看了一下您過去在交通大學那您也學有專長過去也曾經都在我們的公部門當中也都有擔任相關的這個職務"},{"start":11494.068,"end":11514.751,"text":"那麼希望您現在是帶著數位部因為您今天是代表部長因為早上我才跟黃部長一起出席了資安大聯盟的記者會所以說我知道他今天也在出席活動大家都對於你們的專業給予肯定但是進來了這樣的一個行政團隊之後不要忘了您也代表的是您自己的發言喔"},{"start":11514.991,"end":11515.311,"text":"主席有請顧部長請部長"},{"start":11551.531,"end":11575.044,"text":"是 另外一位好部長好 這個我其實在上個月的時候質詢過了就是有關於中共的滲透又或者是說我不一定要認為是中共的滲透啦就是對於國軍的滲透不論是給予資料的滲透是利誘這些其實都一直實質的存在那這個當時你也看過了不過我要告訴您的是我質詢了一個月"},{"start":11576.378,"end":11591.925,"text":"這樣的廣告依舊存在因為我剛剛時間有限我直接跳到我下一個部分就是曾經有研究報導指出對於國軍的滲透現在透過社群的平台有裸拍所謂裸拍是叫國軍直接就秀出他堅實的肌肉"},{"start":11594.006,"end":11608.082,"text":"然後這個照片上來之後可以得到一定的片酬但是重點是要給軍人證再來低利貸款這這個前面剛剛就有另外一個是高額徵稿這個徵稿呢一篇文章"},{"start":11608.723,"end":11633.166,"text":"大概可以拿到五萬塊但重點都在於他必須要有軍人證這三種樣態是不是透過社群平台在做一種滲透我想問部長你們有沒有掌握因為我也必須強調這樣的文章他早在2023年的時候就被揭露只是這個樣態是持續存在而國軍到底有沒有相關的官位在注意這樣的事情呢"},{"start":11635.489,"end":11664.032,"text":"我想像相關這樣子的一個就是說我們要對國軍做好這個相關的這些保防的這些教育那應該是說如果有這樣子的一種當然一方面這個網路平台像這樣子的部分那要如何讓他能夠下架這是一件事情但是國軍說要跟他拿軍人證這件事情"},{"start":11664.392,"end":11675.996,"text":"那他就要有一個警覺對這樣的一個警覺性的一個存在我們要不斷的去宣導這樣子的警覺性除了警覺性的存在之外部長其實我比較關注當然因為你現在剛接任確實是很多的問題那麼都存在也可能需要您一樣一樣的來關注但這個是2023年當時相關的期刊論文跟報導就已經出現了所以我其實比較想了解請你回去了解的是那麼"},{"start":11692.982,"end":11719.289,"text":"這樣的樣態他現在存在之外那是個案還是說其實這些年來有一些相關的防制的方式包括了我剛剛講到其實我為什麼會拿最前面的這一個我一個月之前我6月6號質詢我要強調的是他們到現在都還掛在社群平台當中今天數位部也在喔我要做一個提醒就是不論是金管會有關於詐騙"},{"start":11721.329,"end":11744.324,"text":"的這種不實的廣告金管會我曾經質詢過那麼金管會透過數位部他其實跟這些社群平台是有所謂的綠色通報一旦通報馬上下架農委會也有因為我也曾經質詢過有關於一般的民眾偷渡一些中國或其他地方的種子就直接放在臉書上販售這個是違反我們農業部相關的法規那麼今天數位部也在這裡我想問兩位"},{"start":11751.429,"end":11767.499,"text":"就是那國防部跟數位部之間有沒有所謂的綠色通道可以要求Meta、Google或Line來做一個下架如果沒有那麼是不是可以現在來做一個建立因為我要強調的這些樣態都是從哪裡來都是從社群平台去招攬到現在我都還可以找到類似的這樣的不論是要求軍人裸拍還是給低利貸"},{"start":11778.726,"end":11807.661,"text":"又或者是高額徵稿甚至於現在還有另外一種是媒體也發現的他不是要你軍人自拍是要你軍人去拍你現在所看到的美景那這個某種程度就是要他洩露他所處在的位置跟軍機軍事機密所以這個部分如果看到這樣的樣態的時候請問一下國防部跟數位部有所謂的綠色通道可以立刻要求即刻下架嗎"},{"start":11811.316,"end":11829.369,"text":"蘇衛部的綠色通道是對所有部會開放的所以只要比如說教育部這邊如果有兒少法相關的就是有法律依據要求蘇衛部通過綠色通道去下架那我們都會積極辦理"},{"start":11830.421,"end":11850.993,"text":"好 其實 治標是剛剛我詢問部長的就是在這三大樣態當中過去這一年多以來到底有沒有做必要的防制或是必要的宣導或是必要的處置對於我們國軍弟兄的心理素質或是對他們的狀況做了解但是亡羊補牢的部分就是我提出一個"},{"start":11852.858,"end":11867.79,"text":"呃"},{"start":11868.621,"end":11882.553,"text":"我個人當然現在可能要研議一下我們有關這個下架的依據這可能需要做個研議我的意思是下架的依據是當你看到這種要求"},{"start":11884.605,"end":11906.153,"text":"職業軍人裸拍或是職業軍人去用以低利來誘拐他們算誘拐嗎好就是吸引他們來做這個借貸又或者是高額的徵稿這樣的過程中他不涉及不法嗎或不涉及所謂機密上面的安全嗎尤其是要求軍人提供軍人證明或軍人證等等"},{"start":11908.214,"end":11917.406,"text":"如果有,那麼就軍方的內部來講,不是就應該要要求這樣的樣態的滲透方式的貼文下架嗎?部長"},{"start":11921.421,"end":11950.04,"text":"我們可能沒有辦法去處理到下架這個部分但是我們會處理到國軍在這個方面的一個警覺意識然後讓他有一個正確的一個理財的觀念或者是一個正確的一個保護各自的一個概念或者是保護這個國防相關機密的一個概念這樣子的一個宣導是很重要的那我們也會做一些相關的查核來查核這個官兵所相關的一些"},{"start":11952.501,"end":11977.228,"text":"他有沒有一些問題或狀況那這個部分可能是我們可以來還是要持續來加強來進行的好部長謝謝你的回應我的言下之意就是數位部他其實跟社群平台是有所謂一個下架的綠色通道他們會去處理所謂下架的這個過程包括過去我看到的金融詐騙或者是名人的這個假的部落格"},{"start":11978.109,"end":11981.452,"text":"假的這個所謂的粉絲專頁來做假的這種古有色等等那這個部分金管會會通報數位部他會來做下架那麼金管會會有他的法規同樣的農業部對於這種非法帶入台灣內部的生鮮"},{"start":11993.305,"end":12001.03,"text":"或者是種子等等這是農業部所管轄農業部如果一旦覺得有違法他會通報數位部那麼同樣的我剛剛質詢的脈絡只是要來提醒就是前面我所講到的這個三個樣態剛剛就質詢來說您也覺得這個不合理嗎不合規嗎甚至於包括會有對於國軍的滲透那麼如果你們覺得這些發文的內容是有問題的就可以聯絡數位部由他們來通知平台下架"},{"start":12022.202,"end":12040.336,"text":"所以言下之意我期望的是國防部跟數位部也要建立起這樣的聯絡管道因為剛剛數位部的缺陣子也說了他其實是對各部會來進行開放那麼我只希望就是亡羊補牢的時候你們這條線能夠連結起來就是這個意思可以嗎部長"},{"start":12041.036,"end":12062.023,"text":"是,我們來跟數位部來研議因為現在那個因為這個部分也有涉及到黨詐這相關的可能的一個議題所以黨詐專法的部分如果能夠通過的話也許讓我們這個部分的這個下架的這個法律預計會更堅強一點好,謝謝好,謝謝今天"},{"start":12070.97,"end":12099.533,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有李毅君委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢位及答覆部分會要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束三會謝謝大家"},{"start":12106.784,"end":12107.064,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"16087","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16087","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddf83f7170d9d56c87ad9f551ce5fa921f28aaa308df9ea3730f2f38fe9052579b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS通勤月票辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-10","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-10T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T13:33:00+08:00","duration":18165,"影片長度":"05:02:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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謝謝那因為上一次的會議是交通司法聯席會議那今天只有我們交通委員會的委員在場那是不是能夠由交通委員代表上一次的聯席會議去做一個決議本人持保留這個跟淳于的看法這樣子"},{"start":2139.546,"end":2148.877,"text":"來請何欣淳委員接下來林國成委員謝謝主席對第一個我想7月3號那一天的交通聯席會議當時候的會議的正當性"},{"start":2154.384,"end":2168.61,"text":"本來就有很多的爭議跟疑慮再加上在那一天開會的過程也有一些爭議跟疑慮所以我是認為我們今天要來成立這個議事錄確認"},{"start":2171.491,"end":2172.011,"text":"上午交通司法"},{"start":2201.367,"end":2222.602,"text":"請您過程委員我想今天確定的應該是我提案我們委員會裡面在我們的調查小組我的提案是終止而已所以跟這個聯席會是沒有關的"},{"start":2223.402,"end":2243.479,"text":"沒有關的我的提案裡面請主席請主席就是我的在交通委員會我是吊業小職本來我們也延到7月16號7月16號所以我的我提案的宗旨是"},{"start":2245.211,"end":2262.735,"text":"7月16號以前我們這一次把它終止掉那至於其他聯席會的這些也不在這個此限為什麼要送到那個今天是因為我要終止我們交通委員會成立的調閱小組我提案的本質是這樣跟這個聯席會是無關的"},{"start":2267.605,"end":2282.963,"text":"不是 我只有今天主席在確認的應該只有交通委員會我終止我的調閱小組結束是這樣怎麼會扯到這裡來呢我提案是這樣而已喔"},{"start":2286.865,"end":2311.053,"text":"我在委員會提的不是聯席會議提的所以我要跟各位委員報告我是提我們交通委員會調閱小組終止運作在交通委員會我只有這個部分啊"},{"start":2316.516,"end":2333.243,"text":"徐志傑委員、林俊憲委員我想上一次的聯席我們有意見所以我們退席退席之後你們在裡面開什麼坦白講我們並不是那麼的清楚因為一開始我們就認為會有問題所以這個其實既然有爭議"},{"start":2339.145,"end":2339.485,"text":"林俊憲委員"},{"start":2364.256,"end":2389.975,"text":"好 這個主席齁我們提朝委協商就是說要確認那一天的會議是有效的因為那一天的會議爭議在於召委沒有經過院會交下來就自己召開聯席會議如果黨團協商認為可以這樣那以後每個召委都可以比照辦理你要確認這樣嘛他讓我也有機會做召委啊我也要可以召開聯席會議啊"},{"start":2391.596,"end":2406.926,"text":"那林國正委員提的就是在那個聯席會議上提的如果不是那我們在我們在協商的時候也再來再把它一併不是不是我是要確認說札委可不可以"},{"start":2408.027,"end":2423.234,"text":"沒有經過院會交辦：或者召委員沒有跟院會申請：他就直接召開聯席會議：如果我們草野絕章可以：那大家以後都這樣來照辦了那個競選委員我跟你講大家這內容可以看我是在委員會提的"},{"start":2425.015,"end":2452.134,"text":"是要終止進電視的調閱小組我們來我們來我們來協商看這個東西把這個程序講清楚不是啦因為我是在我們委員會我只有提這個其他的部分那當然如果是聯合那個那個那個聯審小組那個是要去質疑再質疑我這個是把我這個委員會是大家通過的我因為我們原我們本來是7月16號"},{"start":2453.955,"end":2472.564,"text":"所以我提的是終止這個運作我們委員會的運作來等一下主席主席林國正委員因為林國正委員的提案你自己寫的來看一下你自己寫的提案你寫的提案就是說在鑒於近電視深色及後續正義調閱小組"},{"start":2474.318,"end":2478.865,"text":"在立法院交通司法自委員會聯席會議以依據修正後"},{"start":2487.819,"end":2510.161,"text":"好 請許智傑委員謝謝 林國昌委員我們看第一 那個會議是一開始聯席會大家有意見嘛剛才林俊賢委員說的就是說我們如果要可以 他們都可以我們不可以 他們都不可以 對不對我們是建立一個立法院的制度啦"},{"start":2511.662,"end":2538.555,"text":"對,不說你這次朝野協商後就韓院長來主持嘛你如果大家都說可以像之前學生處理的那樣以後大家都可以這樣處理嘛如果不行大家都不行有一個一致的標準跟規則我們不要去說什麼人可以什麼人不行我們立法院有立法院的規則嘛我們是要建立這個規則所以經過朝野協商之後韓院長主持你也不用怕啊如果他說以後可以就大家都可以嘛"},{"start":2539.475,"end":2564.597,"text":"是不是有一個一致的標準你那個會議是我們離席之後講的我們就是對那個聯席不是啊你們有這種疑慮當然我要跟各位報告我是在我們委員會提的我們講道理讓其他委員也聽聽國民黨委員也聽聽啦我們其實是要建立這個制度我們無關說民進黨民眾黨國民黨而是將來召委如果可以這樣子召開臨時會議召開聯席會議"},{"start":2567.139,"end":2596.592,"text":"每一個召委,不管國民黨、民眾黨、民進黨都可以召開如果不行就通通不要是要讓韓院長來協商這樣子一個議事規則這是大家公平的啦,我們沒有關係什麼董的啦比如說你在我們都離席了,因為我們一年沒收董,你一年可以嘛他要建立一個制度,可以都可以,不可以都不可以所以我覺得後面那個就不要再爭議了,國民黨的委員也參考看看啦,我們是要建立制度的啦"},{"start":2597.725,"end":2614.269,"text":"好 我想民進黨委員很明確的就是針對聯席會議的釋法性存有疑義所以說基於在民進黨的精神所以這件事情不應該就是你們的"},{"start":2618.27,"end":2638.641,"text":"剛聽你們發言跟你們的提案內容是好像兩件不一樣的事情因為我剛想林國成委員已經很清楚了我們那天開會是先開交通司法聯席會議然後當然中間退席怎麼樣那個就是交通司法聯席會議過程的事情之後結束了之後才是我們交通委員會"},{"start":2639.742,"end":2657.892,"text":"自己開會那林國成委員的案子是在交通委員會自己開會的情況下所提出來討論決議的事項所以這部分跟交通司法聯席會議是完全沒有相關的一個提案所以說"},{"start":2660.204,"end":2686.683,"text":"提案內容我會認為你們可能以為說林國成委員的提案是不是在交通司法聯席會議提出來的並不是林國成委員並不是在交通司法聯席會議提出來的他是在交通委員會提出來的所以說我認為這樣的質疑可能是大家對時間序上或會議流程上面有一些誤解才會提出這樣子的一個提案因為提案的前半段跟後半段兩件事情也是完全不相關的事情以上"},{"start":2690.183,"end":2690.563,"text":"陳舒悅委員陳舒悅委員"},{"start":2709.71,"end":2736.335,"text":"以依據修正後之立法院職選行使法之規定成立禁電式深涉及後續弊案爭議調查專案小組我們就是對這個有疑慮我們覺得這個在司法性上有問題所以如果說今天林國成委員他提的案就是單純的就是好終止了這個禁電式的這一個專案調查小組他不要去提到說因為這個司法法治委員會的聯席會議這個前因的話我想這樣子會比較"},{"start":2739.616,"end":2741.798,"text":"其實你看結議我們大家看結議那個內容是在交代而已我們的結議是照案通過立法委員會"},{"start":2771.915,"end":2775.476,"text":"對啦 啊你現在就是 這就太緊張了 我給你解說 我就是在委員會 提 在我們委員會提的"},{"start":2795.95,"end":2807.454,"text":"我覺得在程序上面提案的宗旨才是最重要的所有的討論內容當然民進黨委員對於討論的內容到底有沒有爭議這當然可以討論這應該在做決議的時候做決議之前的討論大家可以討論這些事情"},{"start":2814.837,"end":2832.776,"text":"我們可以在 民進黨的委員可以在民進黨的委員可以在討論林國成委員這一項內容討論提案的時候提出來說林國成委員提出了的一些背景資訊或許有一些疑慮來當作大家要不要贊成這件提案的一個決定的依據但是既然已經決定了討論的"},{"start":2836.071,"end":2855.406,"text":"終止了那所有的討論的內容那這樣子以後如果有任何的會議大家對於討論過程中委員引述的資料如果認為有一些疑義的話那是不是以後這樣子的決議都不算數了那這樣子以後大家都去挑語病那會都開不下去啦你以後的會議確認都不用確認啦"},{"start":2858.245,"end":2869.699,"text":"黃建豪委員好 謝謝趙偉我跟各位委員的這個說明一下我的立場其實剛剛我們世界委員一直說你們退席退席但是我要先和先續名一下就是說如果"},{"start":2871.731,"end":2892.677,"text":"貴黨團自始至終覺得上一次的這個司法法制跟交通委員會聯席會議是錯誤的召開那你們就不要出席不是後來退席,因為退席沒有辦法記錄嘛那其實你們也都簽到了也都出席了那場會議那只是讓大家對於開會的議程怎麼開有不同的意見那所以只有你們退席但這並不表示那一次的會議是無效的啊"},{"start":2893.337,"end":2919.804,"text":"所以我覺得用這個會議的這個程序來卡我林國昌委員提案我覺得本質上是有一些程序上邏輯上是錯誤的所以我覺得我們還是要尊重林國昌委員的提案他的提案說明他包含本人也在現場也就跟大家講了他的提案是在聯席會後的交通委員會裡面提要去的這個這個這個這個提案所以不應該用前面那個會議怎麼樣前面會議如果大家有爭議那是另外一件事情但他的"},{"start":2920.764,"end":2924.607,"text":"我的提案跟決議寫得很清楚那後面那一段我們的決議是我只要一個宗族我們的爭議調閱小組終止應用那如果我的本職"},{"start":2946.684,"end":2967.375,"text":"在我們委員會本委員會通過的東西我怎麼有辦法去涵蓋其他的法的立場也就是聯席會你們認為有問題是應該聯席會處理啊那我提案的本質是進電視吊業小組終止停職"},{"start":2969.239,"end":2970.04,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2997.779,"end":3003.262,"text":"關你不同意有什麼樣的問題就過了啊沒有啦 這沒話說啦 這沒話說嘛"},{"start":3011.344,"end":3023.508,"text":"這個是我交代我跟各位報告為什麼要停職黃建平委員黃建豪委員不好意思這個決議就是上次"},{"start":3039.714,"end":3054.8,"text":"專案小組大家開會討論決議嘛我們今天在討論的會議意思就是確認不就是要確認這個決議有沒有有沒有問題嗎啊絕對沒有問題那就沒有問題好不好我是覺得大家針對決議的部分嘛這是結論嘛那當然會議的過程"},{"start":3056.461,"end":3074.982,"text":"規過程 討論是規討論但是真正有效是所謂的會議結論的決議今天要缺的是這個決議那如果決議大家沒意見那我想應該就是沒意見了我也不知道為什麼我們要花20分鐘在討論這個事情好不好 以上說實在的 如果有一例主席我是建議他們可以臨時"},{"start":3077.464,"end":3096.05,"text":"臨時表示他的意見把他發進去這個是可以的但是我的終止本來就是終止硬做而已我也沒有講說那個會議有沒有效啊那個會議有沒有效不是我可以提的我只是終止我的小組的硬做我在這邊做個說明"},{"start":3097.383,"end":3119.48,"text":"一事入的確定不是指決定決議而已不是指決定決議而已你還說對林委員我說一事入的確定不是指決定決議而已這個魯明哲委員也非常的清楚那另外我要說明的就是"},{"start":3121.358,"end":3137.244,"text":"決議的部分只有提案才有決議沒有之前的這個林國成委員等6人提案的這個部分才有相關的這個決議的產生那我尊重各位委員的發言來 魯明哲委"},{"start":3138.254,"end":3156.366,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席我想針對這個議書確定我個人建議還是要把它確定第一個確實有一些不可逆的東西包括我們7月3號決議之後NCC已經收攤了嘛它已經收攤了嘛501我不知道所有委員去沒有啦"},{"start":3157.327,"end":3177.427,"text":"那他的功能在7月3號我們即當時講說即日停止運作他已經收攤了那這幾天我們也不可逆今天啊原來這個不應該這樣的他應該擺回來放在那裡甚至今天下午再把它放回來要不要這樣的第二個呢我不知道公文發了沒有因為其實就已經也發文一個正式經關一個新聞"},{"start":3179.309,"end":3204.442,"text":"那我是覺得是這樣嘛就在這個的部分其實主要的一個停止的一個理由當然是第一個因為我們要的一些資料我想林國純當時這個他做召委召集人很多的資料他都沒有辦法得到嘛沒有辦法得到完整的資料致使我們調閱專案小組無法落實調閱權的行使這個是裡面的一個精髓"},{"start":3205.562,"end":3229.59,"text":"當然第二段這個部分 兩個委員會聯席跟立法院職權行事法即使沒有兩個委員會聯席的話我相信可能民進黨的委員你也不認為立法院職權行事法現在在釋憲你也認為違憲可是問題是我們通過這個決議在違憲判定之前這個部分我們是有合法"},{"start":3230.31,"end":3256.112,"text":"我們當然可以去依照法令總統都公告了來執行那如果你但針對聯席真的有問題真的真的有問題未來在院長級有什麼調整最後談之前之前我們這麼多人雙方都有出席開了一個正式的會議我們當然要認定這個會議的決議是有效的我至少我個人認為是這樣希望能夠一速度照這個表列通過謝謝"},{"start":3257.313,"end":3277.675,"text":"好謝謝那在這邊我也要處理一下相關的議事的程序那我們等一下會請交通委員會我們的主秘來做簡單的說明這是有關於7月3號交通司法法制的聯席會議"},{"start":3279.156,"end":3296.688,"text":"相關議事的進行他的議事錄到底是確定了沒有公告了沒有那你上午的會如果議事錄還沒有確定還沒有公告的話那下午的這個會現在就要做議事錄確定那"},{"start":3297.569,"end":3308.929,"text":"相關的決議內容又有提案的主要內容是跟上午的會議是實質關聯的那這個部分要怎麼處置我們先請竹民來做簡單的說明"},{"start":3314.847,"end":3331.758,"text":"向各位委員報告因為那個7月3日的聯席會議的議事錄當時委員的宣告最後一點是說如果本次的聯席會是本會期最後一次議事錄就授權由"},{"start":3333.619,"end":3334.92,"text":"還沒有公告算不算議事錄確定"},{"start":3353.783,"end":3375.091,"text":"就是如果說他是確定的部分的話按照我們的慣例只要是那個以前的慣例就是主席他核定後就算是確定我現在討論的不是慣例我們意思程序那這樣算不算意思度確定程序上"},{"start":3376.687,"end":3398.196,"text":"因為呢就是說事實上最後一次的議事錄他是一個比較特別的那個情況一般的議事錄一定是經過會議的決議來確定但是最後一次的議事錄因為沒有下一次會議只能交由主席來確定這是我們一向那個委員會運作的慣例"},{"start":3398.756,"end":3417.563,"text":"所以我說沒有公告的話算不算一絲路確定例如今天我們的這個一絲路裡面就是林國成委員提案的這個相關的決議那第一個他是召喚通過立法院交通委員會進電視深色及後續爭議調閱專案小組及日期停止運作二本決議涵"},{"start":3419.805,"end":3428.062,"text":"韓資國家通信傳播委員會那如果今天沒有意思都確定你們要去去韓國家通信委員會說你們就"},{"start":3429.748,"end":3454.534,"text":"報告委員會就是說事實上這個全體會的部分的議事錄跟聯席會議事錄是不一樣的因為今天我們確認的是有關這個小組停止運作的部分那然後如果今天也是最後一次全體會通常我也會請召委宣告說今天是最後一次那個全體會議"},{"start":3456.134,"end":3477.436,"text":"議事錄會交由會授權主席合訂後確定所以是跟那個聯席會是同樣的情況所以如果今天是最後一次全體會就是由李召集委員來合訂後確定那如果今天這個議事錄經過確定跟經過李召集委員確定之後我們才會"},{"start":3478.917,"end":3495.208,"text":"今天這個會議確定之後我們才會發函給國家通訊傳播委員會告訴他們說這個小組已經停止運作在這個議事錄還沒有經過李召集委員合訂之前我們不會發函以上報告"},{"start":3497.352,"end":3512.837,"text":"好我們在處理交通委員會相關的議程那我個人都會秉持的大家形成共識也不會說強行的來做自己的一個裁決現在休息5分鐘大家寫上"},{"start":3861.049,"end":3882.6,"text":"好,我們繼續開會今日的議事錄確定那召委、主席一定都是秉持議事程序讓大家充分的討論所以今天的討論過程也讓我們各黨派的委員充分的發言"},{"start":3883.683,"end":3909.94,"text":"第二：也請議事人員：請主秘來說明相關的議事程序處理的過程那在大家意見都有不同的說明之下我們也進行的5分鐘的相關的協商就是充分的我們必須尊重會議的民主的程序那"},{"start":3911.872,"end":3928.196,"text":"在這邊我們委員有建議是否就符合相關的決議就是照案通過立法院交通委員會今天是深涉及後續爭議調閱專案小組即日起停止運作"},{"start":3929.402,"end":3957.738,"text":"這樣的一個會議的決議是否能夠讓它確實的符合相關的決議所以針對這個提案的內容通過委員林國成等6人提案以下第一段都保留第二段鑑於今天是深色及後續爭議調閱專案小組調閱期間將屆且立法院交通司法法治委員會"},{"start":3960.081,"end":3984.429,"text":"聯席會以依據修正後之立法院職權行使法之規定成立競電式深色及後續弊案爭議調查小組這一段刪調那保留交通委員會競電式深色及後續爭議調閱專案小組階段任務已經完成後續立法院對競電式案調查員"},{"start":3990.987,"end":4014.423,"text":"今天是深涉及後續正義專案這個調閱專案小組即日起停止運作那還有倒數的第三段就是倒數的第三行已如今天是深涉及後續弊案正義調查小組行使職權行使職權這一句也刪除不知道大家有沒有意見請大家表示意見"},{"start":4016.431,"end":4037.437,"text":"那這樣就符合林國成委員以及相關的意思錄的確定就是決議的部分就是單純的召喚通過立法院交通委員會進電視聲色及後續爭議調案調閱專業小組即日起停止運作這就符合相關的決議抱歉我保留一下表達一下意見"},{"start":4039.465,"end":4050.612,"text":"就是剛剛趙薇講的針對剛剛的文字敘述去做調整這些東西應該是要在上次會議的時候討論的時候去討論而不是在確認議事錄的時候來討論"},{"start":4055.251,"end":4078.721,"text":"那這樣子以後大家都來這樣子做以後美式的決議討論完了之後下次要確認的時候又來修改文字程序應該不是這樣子吧文字要修正應該是要在就有點類似刪讀那你刪讀的時候你怎麼可以再去做大幅度的文字的修正這只是確認跟不確認針對裡面的內容有沒有意見是在討論階段要討論的不是今天應該要討論的"},{"start":4080.365,"end":4081.606,"text":"今天是向交通委員會的各位同仁"},{"start":4102.816,"end":4126.751,"text":"做一次說明我們都遵照相關的民主程序以及充分的討論希望能夠符合相關的議事規則那我再重申一遍今天讓大家充分的討論第二也請主秘來說明相關的會議程序的進行的現況"},{"start":4128.26,"end":4151.148,"text":"第3也在進行相關的協商接下來也再一次的進行相關內容的大家的一個確定如果大家都還是有各持己見那我們就尊重林國成召委的提議來進行表決來表決前請清點人數好"},{"start":4156.158,"end":4167.982,"text":"在場出席委員12人不含主席以足法定人數來贊成一事路確定的請舉手"},{"start":4192.008,"end":4215.277,"text":"好那贊成者八人反對請舉手四位不要用貓來形容委員好不好好那反對者四人那贊成者多數議事錄確定"},{"start":4228.005,"end":4249.175,"text":"現在介紹在場的官員李孟諺部長林福山市長陳文瑞局長林紀國所長杜威董事長委員的部分"},{"start":4252.484,"end":4279.061,"text":"來．林佩祥委員．林國誠召委．陳雪生召委．邱若驊委員．廖先祥委員．黃建豪委員好．現在本日進行TPASS通勤月票辦理情形專題報告．請交通部．李孟諺部長報告"},{"start":4291.67,"end":4317.576,"text":"主席．各位委員．各位女士先生．今天應邀列席貴委員會．就TPASS通勤月票辦理情形提出報告．謹敬請各位委員指教．為振興公共運輸．及減輕民眾日常通勤通學交通負擔．交通部配合義後強化經濟．以社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別條例．"},{"start":4318.716,"end":4341.55,"text":"擬定行政院促進公共運輸使用方案並編列3年200億元預算來推動TPASS行政院通勤月票由中央主導地方共同參與的方式依不同旅運需求及縣市緊密程度規劃月票方案其能有效恢復及提升公共運輸的運量"},{"start":4343.231,"end":4364.335,"text":"交通部自112年2月議後特別條例通過後﹐及積極協助輔導﹐及審查各縣市政府規劃月票方案﹐其中,北中南三大生活圈月票方案﹐於112年7月1日率先上路實施。新竹縣市、雲林縣、嘉義縣市、宜蘭縣、花蓮縣及台東縣等縣市﹐"},{"start":4369.277,"end":4396.857,"text":"陸續響應推動目前已經有19個縣市實施月票方案上線以來也獲得民眾踴躍使用已經有超過760萬人次加值購買及5.7億人次使用月票搭乘各類公共運輸工具全國實施月票縣市之公共運輸量依照月票實施前成長12.7%推動成效良好"},{"start":4397.917,"end":4418.691,"text":"為持續擴大TPASS的受惠族群照顧短期非通勤公共運輸需求本部克正規劃TPASS2.0短天期的定期票並其能於113年12月底以前來事半推動以滿足更多元化的旅運需求及鼓勵民眾使用公共運輸"},{"start":4419.952,"end":4431.826,"text":"接下來詳細的說明請容我請本部公路局陳局長、文瑞向各位委員做報告再次謝謝各位委員的指教來請陳文瑞局長報告"},{"start":4438.018,"end":4455.008,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位理事先生接著報告TPASS通勤月票目前的辦理情形在1號為了要增新公共運輸本部在1號特別預算編列3年200億元的預算那這個案子是由這個全國首創由中央主導地方參與"},{"start":4456.729,"end":4482.371,"text":"從這個生活圈的角度來規劃整合生活圈內的運具那整合這個運具種類最多的一個政策那民眾大概是用交通支出原有的3到5折就可以就是說這樣子的優惠來達成各類的公共運輸那TPASS的月票是112年去年7月1日開始這個實施以來目前全國已經有19個縣市24個月票方案那澎湖縣我們也核定了那預計"},{"start":4483.132,"end":4483.352,"text":"主席"},{"start":4501.559,"end":4516.276,"text":"現在大概有5.74億人是使用月票搭乘各類公共運輸平均每月是4787萬人次因為這個TPASS也帶動了這個實施TPASS月票的縣市的公共運輸所以平均每月的這個帶動這個公共運輸全國這個實施這個月票的縣市"},{"start":4521.442,"end":4521.682,"text":"公共自行車23.8%"},{"start":4541.167,"end":4563.529,"text":"在TPASS執行的過程中,交通部是透過EO特別預算來補助各縣市政府所需的,包括優惠票價差額,票證系統的建置,票證系統的修改。在去年112年的預算,21億元也全部執行完畢。今年編列的預算,預計我們也可以執行到百分之百。"},{"start":4564.21,"end":4580.06,"text":"那後續的推動的這個方向包括這個我們已經核定各縣市政府還沒有上線的這個月票方案包括澎湖縣的這個月票以及北宜的2300月票那澎湖縣月票預計在8月份可以來實施"},{"start":4580.86,"end":4608.007,"text":"伊蘭縣的2300月票公路局也在今年的6月6日審查原則通過也預計在9月份來實施另外在更精進的部分因為這個TPASS主要是就是說當初是30天通勤通學的公共運輸使用者為了擴大使用的族群交通部也在跟各縣政府討論要推動TPASS2.0的短期定期票"},{"start":4609.067,"end":4637.497,"text":"這個部分可以來照顧非通勤的公共運輸使用者那大概就是說這個適用的天數不超過14天那這個方案的話在6月25日公路局也都跟各縣政府召開討論的一些這個執行的一些過程執行的一些方案的一個確認那預計在今年的12月底可以來事辦推動讓這個TPASS能夠擴大加惠到更多元的這個旅運需求的一個族群那"},{"start":4638.581,"end":4666.699,"text":"整個TPASS的月票從去年的這個7月上路實施以來成像良好那各方也都反映在疫後特別預算這個三年的預算這個執行完畢後是能夠希望能夠持續推動所以本部也預計在今年年底提出後續推動計劃來爭取在115年之後能夠常態的推動預算那未來就是這個編列的這個預算還請這個委員能夠支持那以上報告進行"},{"start":4667.88,"end":4696.073,"text":"這個各位委員指教謝謝好在進行詢問之前我們要做個議事程序的一個補足那剛才議事錄已經確定那相關陳樹越等人的提案我必須做個正式宣告委員陳樹越等私人提案不通過好"},{"start":4699.085,"end":4720.079,"text":"現在要進行詢答先宣告以下事項發言時間出席委員6加1分鐘列席委員5分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止各委員若提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員彙整"},{"start":4721.901,"end":4741.83,"text":"暫定10點30分 休息10分鐘 中午原則上不休息 現在請登記第一位 林沛翔委員發言有請部長 跟我們公路局局長 請陳局長"},{"start":4752.455,"end":4764.711,"text":"部長 局長針對TPASS這個政策本席是給予高度的肯定但是老實說我也覺得因為TPASS的上路我有點失望 有點困惑為什麼這樣說 因為我會認為現在的TPASS"},{"start":4768.956,"end":4790.484,"text":"聯閣講起來是對基隆的民眾甚至對大台北的民眾有點於不掩霞實質上來講這是現在TPASS之後呢服務品質不但不足反而變更差那我們現在看到的這些都是目前我想局長都很清楚可能部長第一次看到這全部都是在台北等車等國道客運的基隆人"},{"start":4791.144,"end":4814.694,"text":"那每天都是這樣的狀況這是白天上班這是一邊是白天上班一邊是晚上下班變成是說造成我們這些已經從這樣的狀況已經持續了至少三年以上基本上來講越來 尤其是TPASS上路之後是越來越嚴重原因其實很特別就是因為我們都知道司機繼續缺工但是呢"},{"start":4816.431,"end":4843.657,"text":"班次因為人數的增加又因為司機的缺工所以反而更開不出來我記得沒有錯我最近這半年沒有去調資料因為每個月搭乘用TPASS搭乘國道客運的人數都在增加甚至以前我記得是約略每天有3萬5千名基隆人搭乘這個國道客運來台北上班上課現在應該已經突破4萬人以上"},{"start":4844.477,"end":4865.118,"text":"那這樣的一個大型的人潮那他們當他們這個上班沒有辦法沒有辦法準時上班明明要趕九點的班他們必須六點就六點六點半就已經出門那晚上明明五點半已經下了班他們到家時間是八點八點半那本席身為基隆的民意代表本席是感到非常的心痛"},{"start":4866.419,"end":4881.719,"text":"甚至這樣講今天我也看到交通運營所的所長在這邊對吧我們也都知道基隆到台北這一段跟台北到桃園這一段在上班時間都是最困難的時候"},{"start":4882.319,"end":4896.735,"text":"這些是全台灣在上班時間交通最密集最容易塞車的時候但是如果我們的國道科學沒有辦法順利的去符合這大眾運輸的功能的話是不是變相的要逼大家去開車呢"},{"start":4897.896,"end":4916.622,"text":"所以本席有針對下面五點來請教我們交通部也順便做出建議第一個從我2月1號一上任之後我就一直請我們交通部研擬所謂的國道客運的補助請問什麼時候到位那請問這個金額大概是多少"},{"start":4917.122,"end":4940.12,"text":"因為我從5月的時候最後王部長要離開的時候說已經合訂了不要擔心已經合訂了那本來說6月就會到位結果6月還沒有現在到7月最後面說8月那你們給我們個確切時間什麼時候到位那第二個來講就是說我們什麼時候這筆補助大概是多少的金額"},{"start":4940.66,"end":4940.72,"text":"請回答"},{"start":4966.548,"end":4986.34,"text":"相關的先跟委員報告就是缺司機這個部分目前已經有幾個措施在進行比如說我們把駕駛的那個年紀從65歲提高到68歲讓有更多人可以來擔任那第二個有相關的一些加薪的措施目前平均大概每個駕駛大概有加薪5000塊月薪"},{"start":4987.901,"end":5004.133,"text":"那另外也協助流財久用協助招募新的人包括訓練期間每天有915元的津貼那整個招募如果他留任超過一年最多可以領到13萬多的補助那現在已經協助各客運"},{"start":5005.134,"end":5025.718,"text":"大概增加了將近2900多位的駕駛那另外有關桃園基隆這7條比較特殊的這個國道那目前有一些正在研擬特殊的一個協助的方式因為確實他的運量離峰跟尖峰有很大的落差那細節我是不是請我們局長跟您報告一下"},{"start":5026.098,"end":5029.241,"text":"反映業者實質營運成本,國道科運交通部合併在今年5月1日調漲運價,因為TPASS是補助票價差額"},{"start":5043.453,"end":5069.81,"text":"所以就是說目前就是說這個業者他要去公告就是說他要提升的因為像我們TPASS的話是全額做補貼所以基本上就是說業者他要調帳公告他的票價不過這個票價不會反映到民眾的身上基本上就是說這個部分TPASS的部分都是全額補助那而且就是說我們是追溯回這個交通部的這個5月1日合訂的這個部分也就是說從5月1日之後"},{"start":5070.57,"end":5089.267,"text":"業者的營運成本的話接受這個我們的補貼像三排座的話就是說大概就是這個整個營運的成本這個我們的補貼是在接近百分之二十那四排座大概是百分之五局長能不能直接跟我們講說這次的補貼整個補助會大概是會有多少這個金額大概大約是多少"},{"start":5093.71,"end":5097.992,"text":"國道客運整個運價調整一年會增加6億元補貼經費基隆、臺北的尖峰性非常強所以我們現在補貼跟一般國道客運運價的補貼不一樣還會再加成另外它的路線"},{"start":5121.523,"end":5122.403,"text":"人均公里補助會提供多少?"},{"start":5136.471,"end":5158.973,"text":"這個部分的話 因為這個它的像基隆台北這邊的話就是說它會比我們5月1日合定的運價大概還會再增加2到6成左右我在這邊就直接把事情講因為局長也知道本溪長期關心我們的國道客運那尤其是不管是平面跟高速公路上面的補助其實是不一樣的"},{"start":5159.634,"end":5179.528,"text":"那我在這邊強烈建議就是說在人均公里補助的時候如果能的話建議一次補齊如果能夠到5塊台幣5塊的話人均公里補助如果能到台幣5塊的話我認為一次可以反映所有的成本而且跟甚至有關這個通貨膨脹另外一方面來講就是說你這樣子可以讓業者會願意來進來去經營這些辛苦的路線"},{"start":5185.692,"end":5190.356,"text":"平面道路補貼目前有計劃43塊提高到46塊明年才會去進行計劃平面路段部分去年已經核定了什麼時候實施去年5月份已經實施了平面路段現在是45塊85嗎"},{"start":5210.354,"end":5212.215,"text":"本席認為說如果只定期為三年的氧量計劃基本上"},{"start":5236.341,"end":5258.639,"text":"這幾條路線都不用養量這幾條路線量都很大不管是基隆到台北還是桃園到台北量其實都很大而局長你知道我講哪幾條路線所以說與其是這樣講倒不如說一個補助必要性國道客運的補助變成是一個常態性補助簡稱叫補幣因為這些路線必須要在不然的話這些路線他太多人去搭乘"},{"start":5258.959,"end":5286.551,"text":"如果這些沒有搭乘這些路線的話我們至少我保守估計至少多1000台車從基隆跟桃園上高速公路來做搭乘那這樣對我們目前的高速公路會有更大的影響那最後一點是我這邊就直接跟幫我們新鄉委員講話基隆市目前最大的客運路線叫做1815我想局長很清楚那這條路線不是只有在基隆人也包括金山萬里的鄉親主要都是靠這條路線到臺北"},{"start":5288.012,"end":5307.317,"text":"不過呢因為最近1815的量太大已經大到無法負荷變成是說我們常常聽到基隆跟新北的鄉親我們在場說我們能不能說去誰能夠搭車先誰先排隊那我在這邊見醒我們公路局然後請國光客運然後在1815上面"},{"start":5307.737,"end":5330.555,"text":"直接試開一班直接從1815經過台北市之後直接到萬里金山我知道現在有直接到萬里可是有經過基隆市可是直接越過基隆市試開一班越過基隆市直接到萬里跟金山到法鼓山這個路線看是否能夠有效的把這個運量給疏散掉這是我的建議"},{"start":5332.536,"end":5346.759,"text":"這個部分的話我記得有在討論我確認一下他們是不是什麼時候要實施因為確實就是說他有一些部分的話可能是需要做一些可能挑戰的一個我剛剛提議的這些不管是運量上面的補價也好還是說還是說那個養量計畫的常態性或者1815的事情"},{"start":5354.301,"end":5370.037,"text":"這些問題都會實質上對我們的國道科運有幫助而國道科運是我們在TPASS裡面在基隆這一環裡面受惠最多的人那我希望說部長也好然後我們局長也好能夠認真把本席的本席剛剛進言納入考量以上"},{"start":5370.618,"end":5372.72,"text":"我覺得這一點TPASS對民眾是好事可是"},{"start":5398.32,"end":5419.97,"text":"如果說業者沒有足夠的補助那變成是說有民眾願意買單但是業者養不活最後面損失的還是我們的民眾所以這點我想請交通部好好列入考量我們來設法來改善這個問題以上好 謝謝林佩祥委員發言完畢現在請林國成委員發言"},{"start":5433.217,"end":5443.356,"text":"謝謝主席 請李部長陳局長還有另外我們運輸研究所來林所長"},{"start":5452.082,"end":5467.107,"text":"好,我想部長跟局長還有所長你們早啦,但是我要特別謝謝這個政策,其實TPASS這個"},{"start":5468.976,"end":5487.058,"text":"政策基本上多數的人是認同的所以在這個部分我們也要謝謝我們召集人他排這個讓我們有一個彼此之間好壞我們做一個充分的溝通"},{"start":5487.759,"end":5510.461,"text":"我想任何一個政策要做讓人家百分之百是不可能但是有多數的人來認同這是非常重要不要說開錢耍得還要罵這個沒有意義但是可以確定TPASS這個政策是老百姓是認同的"},{"start":5511.181,"end":5528.04,"text":"但是你認同的過程當中我必須要特別第一個我要請教一下本來加入的有19個縣市喔局長那現在為什麼只剩下15個其他4個是什麼原因可以告訴本席嗎"},{"start":5531.076,"end":5532.237,"text":"我們這個政策是從去年開始做"},{"start":5550.393,"end":5566.73,"text":"對不對但是第一我要問所長的你們有沒有研究到底老百姓滿意度有多少這第一喔第二你們黃金路線到底每一個線是哪幾條"},{"start":5568.399,"end":5597.74,"text":"首長你有研究嗎跟委員報告一下部裡面有特別要責請運營所來辦理一個研究計畫就是針對這個TPASS上路以後到底它的成效怎麼樣那這裡面當然就是包括委員剛才指教的這個滿意度現在研究出來了沒有現在正在做問卷正在做問卷調查當中黃金路線啊滿意度啊現在在做什麼時候可以做出來"},{"start":5598.16,"end":5600.423,"text":"任何政府的政策"},{"start":5616.722,"end":5634.416,"text":"當然就是要跟民意結合啊這個效益不要花了幾百億然後效益啊都像在把錢放在水中這個沒有意義啦那我也想李部長是想做事的"},{"start":5635.339,"end":5660.196,"text":"所以我也希望李部長當然雖然充分授權但是既然好的政策要繼續去推你不要推了一年兩年不要給人家老百姓覺得說要選舉就有福利沒選舉就沒福利這點我要勉勵我們李部長這個應該要去堅持因為我們任何政策任何錢"},{"start":5661.337,"end":5677.838,"text":"只要花在老百姓身上﹐對老百姓有意義的﹐對老百姓﹐可以幫助他們減輕﹐上班主這等等﹐我認為﹐這都是值得的﹐所以﹐伯娘﹐有可能﹐現在如果停起來﹐沒辦法選舉﹐這步驟就沒辦法做﹐會不會﹐"},{"start":5680.501,"end":5683.102,"text":"好 據我手頭資料是否正確"},{"start":5710.779,"end":5735.404,"text":"第一北北居桃使用量佔了八成但是其他兩成啊就只有就只有其他的縣市這個要怎麼解決啊這代表都會行是大受歡迎但是偏鄉"},{"start":5737.17,"end":5759.887,"text":"是有一點障礙那這個障礙是什麼你們有沒有把它研究出來我想整體來講各生活圈在透過這個TPASS之後大眾運輸的使用率是都有提升的不過確實中南部的整個包括捷運路網大眾運輸的這樣的一個可及性"},{"start":5760.988,"end":5761.869,"text":"還有所長跟這個局長我這裡也要有一個建議第一個"},{"start":5789.426,"end":5807.6,"text":"北北基桃確實使用率是高的那它的高的優點是什麼當然是集中人潮集中嘛車輛集中嘛路網比較集中其實臺北市本席啊做過市議員做過世界我很清楚"},{"start":5808.56,"end":5828.797,"text":"這個交通網基本上像都會行臺北市是做得比較好所以它效益會比較好這一點我要拜託所長你們在研究的時候要把它分區分段做一些剛才我所提的黃金路線以及班次"},{"start":5831.339,"end":5854.031,"text":"黃金這個都要把它研究出來哪邊車輛不足哪一個時間是最需要這個研究所就要把它研究出來另外一個我還是要建議建議局長在做這些事的時候逃逐逐秒要有另外一種研究很明顯現在是印量有沒運據"},{"start":5855.752,"end":5855.932,"text":"中章頭"},{"start":5875.679,"end":5894.829,"text":"銀嘉蘭這等等這生活圈完全都是會不一樣所以我也要拜託我們部長當然你不可能管得這麼細膩在最起碼局長還有首長你要研究出來一套這些TPASS"},{"start":5895.729,"end":5896.089,"text":"方法對!"},{"start":5915.197,"end":5932.966,"text":"自然而然就會做的正確方法不對那就會做的不正確所以我要拜託我們陳局長還有我們林所長部長要督促把這個政策好的政策把它做好但是像這種印量油"},{"start":5933.806,"end":5949.068,"text":"沒車輛這個問題怎麼解決我也希望林所長好好提供幕僚參考的資料給部長去做政策的限制給局長去做這個執行的議題這樣的話我相信這個政策"},{"start":5950.009,"end":5967.378,"text":"老百姓會給你們賀財的好不好好也簡單跟我們報告剛剛提到有運量沒運據現在我們有一個市區的電動公車的補助那今年有合訂了1900台那我想剛剛逃逐逐秒如果說缺乏公車我們會來聊像雲嘉嵐啊"},{"start":5969.479,"end":5986.365,"text":"另外中南部也協助很多所以啦 部長我剛才跟你們建議就是要切塊啦不能依照白白機啊 這個方式但是偏遠有偏遠的這些需求所以我還是建議這個部分可能要把它分開規劃這樣的話才會進善進美好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":5996.223,"end":6000.404,"text":"謝謝林國成委員質詢接下來邀請李昆澤召委質詢謝謝主席請一下李部長陳局長還有台鐵杜董事長"},{"start":6018.651,"end":6034.241,"text":"副部長我先就教於台鐵那我請教杜威董事長藍皮解憂號他的票價調整其實他也不是這兩天調整他在5月1號就已經調整票價了那這兩天社會多所議論"},{"start":6035.242,"end":6054.999,"text":"那最主要說台鐵它當初在2021年的時候它是以固定的價格來輸出給旅行社就是雄獅旅行社那我記得當初在2021年的時候它的票價全票是499"},{"start":6057.381,"end":6061.382,"text":"臺鐵當初也有一些的基本要求就是說屏東跟台東的民眾他們有特別的優惠全票啊"},{"start":6084.668,"end":6098.684,"text":"一般人是599台東跟屏東是399那5月1號調整之後台東跟屏東的這個票價還是399嗎來說明一下調整到499調整到499喔399調整到499也調整了100塊那"},{"start":6106.806,"end":6130.841,"text":"全票的部分從2021年的1999到2022年的599現在到5月1號調整為699那當初這個藍皮捷運號他其實不只是藍皮捷運號他是跟明日號明日廚房同樣的都是出租給旅行社那我要提醒這個"},{"start":6132.386,"end":6160.958,"text":"局長 這個票價的調整 台鐵有跟他們討論嗎有 他們要提出他們的方案以後 我們公司會做審核他們最主要的方案應該就是說 因為他們的薪水有調整或是說他們藍皮9號有相關的贈品 這些贈品的票價也調整這些價格也調整 但是這個調整的幅度是高了一點 我還是要提醒杜董事長"},{"start":6163.001,"end":6187.839,"text":"最主要是說因為他的名字號是賺錢的是很賺錢的尤其是在疫情期間因為國人出國比較困難所以他真的是一票難求疫情期間就算現在疫情和緩他平日也應該都有八成左右的搭乘量是不是所以說部長跟局長我要提醒就是說我們客運"},{"start":6190.489,"end":6195.957,"text":"國際航空也是一樣,你有黃金的航線,你也必須要搭配幾條沒有那麼賺錢的航線"},{"start":6205.857,"end":6206.818,"text":"接下來就討論TPASS的問題"},{"start":6227.54,"end":6245.044,"text":"TPASS問題我看我們在2023年的7月啟用其實到今年的6月30號為止搭乘的人次已經達到5.74億人次那累計有768萬8千人的人次購買TPASS的這個相關的這個優惠那其實"},{"start":6255.097,"end":6271.456,"text":"部長我要提醒你,我們搭乘的人次沒有增加,還減少。今年一至四月的搭乘總人次,對比2019年的同期,就是一至四月,整體減少了,就是所有的載具,減少了9.1"},{"start":6274.498,"end":6291.884,"text":"其實台鐵還有維吾的成長大概維吾成長0.2高雄捷運也大概有成長這樣的13%的左右台北捷運反而是下跌的台北捷運下降了5.3%那機車客運減少了20.5%市區客運減少18.5%公路客運減少了37.3%"},{"start":6299.761,"end":6299.881,"text":"為什麼?來說明一下"},{"start":6326.713,"end":6341.429,"text":"委員跟您報告就是大概從實施以來到6月為止平均大概每月購買人數大概是64萬那累計是到768萬那最高峰的是在去年的10月大概71萬"},{"start":6343.01,"end":6358.881,"text":"每個月平均那這幾個月其實是大概4月5月都到67萬部長這個沒問題我說的搭乘的總能次也好或者是購買的這樣的一個總能次他的"},{"start":6359.481,"end":6360.222,"text":"公共運輸的這些通勤者"},{"start":6373.666,"end":6386.793,"text":"他是衰退他也不是現在才發生這是一個交通公共運輸的重要問題的趨勢就是說2019年的時候還有48.22023年下降成39.3然後交通部在2022年也有相關的調查報告公共運輸的市佔率2009年還有16.3到2022年變成14.3都是有下降的然後我"},{"start":6403.516,"end":6429.268,"text":"我們必須要來面對這個問題來部長您說明一下有一些細節我是不是請局長請陳局長來跟委員報告確實因為三年的疫情其實這個整個公共運輸的這個使用量其實是一直在衰退所以在TPASS的這個加入之後的話其實是一直將這個以前衰退三年疫情的衰退的你的意思是說本來會衰退的更嚴重"},{"start":6429.588,"end":6430.168,"text":"公共運輸是遠遠的落後其他的國家"},{"start":6451.192,"end":6458.457,"text":"你看我們的公共運輸的市佔率臺灣整體是18.2日本是36%英國是36%然後亞洲各大城市的對比臺北是37.2臺北算高的臺北37.2香港是87新加坡是86東京是84首爾是57"},{"start":6477.185,"end":6501.842,"text":"差很大耶!差很大耶!所以說部長我們的責任很大的啦!責任很大啦!這個公共運輸的必須要提升它的市佔率嘛!我們當然我們的推動公共運輸當然有五項指標啦!就是價格要可以負擔啦!私人載具的成本與障礙這個我們要公共運輸價格比較可以負擔嘛!"},{"start":6502.262,"end":6515.853,"text":"道路的建設、交通網的密度也要提升速度通勤的時間要能夠更縮短舒適度、票務系統的方便度、電子化的方便度轉乘的方便度還有安全跟環境的影響"},{"start":6517.874,"end":6543.516,"text":"這都是很重要的指標來說明一下是我想確實臺灣的這個公共運輸還有很大的成長空間那包括像入網的建設密度還有票務的方便性等等還有可負擔的這個程度那我想這個部分我們會持續的來努力來推動增加入網的密度包括捷運的建設公車入網的建置那還有票證的整合"},{"start":6546.236,"end":6572.462,"text":"時間的關係我有簡單的幾項建議第一個在票物的價格方面我們應該要以提升服務品質以及安全性這是首要的目標那我們要以良好的服務品質來帶動運載量的上升那改善財務狀況如果你一昧的調高票價他是會導致搭乘意願更低的這樣的惡性循環"},{"start":6573.602,"end":6601.431,"text":"交通部要提供必要的協助啦這我也說給杜董事長聽啦你藍皮截圖號,這樣越來越貴,現在699,不吃你借3這個票價太高了那第二個,交通網的密度不足的問題我們必須要面對就是說以區域的概念來推動區域的交通建設那中南部地區的公共運輸的這種系統的建設不足"},{"start":6602.455,"end":6621.392,"text":"那是要推展國際觀光的一個主力啦也是中央部民眾的痛啦因為市佔率都還是個位數啦都還必須要再提升那針對班次候車時間以及轉乘的距離啊這個都要去做改善啦那提升"},{"start":6622.714,"end":6647.839,"text":"提高這個接駁轉稱的密度來推動票務及系統的整合來提高這個公共運輸的便利性然後我們要全面盤點各項的交通系統的整合及安全性的問題來進行改善提高民眾公共運輸的信賴度部長我還是要提醒你我們對公共運輸的市佔率"},{"start":6650.277,"end":6678.168,"text":"這個是很重要的工作啦我不太能接受陳局長所說的如果沒有TPASS這個市佔率會衰退得更嚴重阿我們好家宅我們有TPASS讓我們的這個衰退沒那麼嚴重本來要送加護病房阿現在是住一般病房大家應該要給交通部下落這是不對的因為整體來說我們的衰退阿以國內自己來比較這兩三年來是逐漸的下降"},{"start":6679.121,"end":6679.541,"text":"謝謝李昆哲召委質詢"},{"start":6709.368,"end":6712.73,"text":"謝謝陳淑月委員現在請廖先祥委員發言謝謝召委幫我要請我們的部長陳局長"},{"start":6736.397,"end":6754.783,"text":"委員好部長好 謝謝部長今天應該是我們這個會期最後一次的答詢為了表示我的慎重我昨天還特地去剪了頭髮希望我們今天的答詢能夠愉快我們今天要討論TPASS的使用我們TPASS推出來的最主要的目的"},{"start":6755.871,"end":6774.286,"text":"最主要的目的應該是要提升我們公共運輸的使用率嘛對不對如果說只是單純減輕民眾的負擔沒有辦法提升公共運輸的使用率那就單純的就是一個單純的真正買票而已所以說我們在報告裡面才會特別強調我們從111年7月到112年4月跟112年7月到113年4月就是同樣的月份去對一個比較我們運量提升了12.7%"},{"start":6784.915,"end":6810.532,"text":"當然還有其他的一些細項但是我們在討論一個科學化的統計的時候我想必須要有一些科學化的一些的一些做法我們比如說在做一些化學實驗的時候我們一定要什麼我們要有實驗組跟對照組對不對我們要排除掉實驗組跟對照組除了那項變因以外的其他變因我們都要去排除來確認"},{"start":6812.193,"end":6838.971,"text":"我們去做的這一項變因到底對它實際上面的影響有多大我們在做TPASS也一樣我們從我們110年7月開始有幾項我們臺灣公共運輸一些比較大的一些變化包括你們有提到整個南部的公共自行車或者是南部公共運輸有所成長有許多的變因這跟兩位報告一下"},{"start":6840.506,"end":6867.774,"text":"我們統計從110年7月開始那我們在也就是2022年那我們在2022年10月5號的時候高雄捷運美術館站到愛河之心啟用同樣的高雄捷運在2024年1月1號愛河之心到凱旋公園啟用那我們高雄的輕軌才是一個完整的環狀線嘛是嘛那也因為高雄輕軌環狀線的完整啟用"},{"start":6870.725,"end":6888.719,"text":"相信也會造成我們這個搭乘使用率的一個上升所以說我們的一些報告比如說南部生活圈高屏成長20.5最高我想除了我們的TPASS我們這個捷運建設入廊的一個健全我認為這才是一個最主要的原因那包括我們的自行車公共自行車成長23.8%"},{"start":6892.216,"end":6914.383,"text":"在2022年11月16號的時候高雄UBIKE 2.01啟用了那當然陸陸續續就增加了很多站以及台北市的UBIKE在今年的2月8號恢復了前30分鐘免費這些都是除了我們TPASS以外的一些公共政策上面的一些改變那也因為他們的改變顯著的"},{"start":6916.505,"end":6925.384,"text":"成長的這個公共運輸的使用率那我們要那包括剛剛我們趙薇講的我們的疫情指揮中心事項所解散的"},{"start":6926.823,"end":6955.16,"text":"是在2023年的5月1號也就是在我們這一次的統計數據跟上一次的統計數據之間我們一起中間去做解散那在疫情中心解散了之後疫情的影響降低之後那包括公共運輸入網的一個完善自行車案的完善導致了我們的運量的上升那要把這些運量上升的結果通通歸功於我們TPASS的一個月票的推出我認為這有點自我感覺良好"},{"start":6955.7,"end":6984.321,"text":"就比如說我們在考量到我們餐廳的一個業績好了我們可以說我們今年餐廳業績跟疫情期間業績我們暴增了10倍那你認為這樣的統計數據有意義嗎它有許多不同的客觀因素那包括疫情也是一個很大的一個因素因此我認為剛剛我們李孟諾召委特別提出來疫情前跟疫情後的公共運輸的一個數據的一個比較它才是有意義的"},{"start":6985.56,"end":7012.746,"text":"以阪南縣來講我們應該要拿疫情前阪南縣的使用人數使用率來跟疫情後阪南縣或者是淡水縣的使用人數來比他才是有意義的啊因為我們並沒有做路線的變換我們並沒有政策上面的改變我們也排除掉疫情導致我們力量降低先蹲後跳的一個成長的因素啊那我們確實如剛剛我們的李昆哲教委講的在疫情前"},{"start":7013.973,"end":7029.373,"text":"的使用率跟我們疫情後的大眾使用率來相比我們推出了TPASS之後反而使用率還降低了這在剛剛的答詢之中你們並沒有回答出你們的一些檢討原因我們這部分可不可以先針對這部分來做一個說明"},{"start":7030.254,"end":7057.84,"text":"跟委員報告,就是當然大眾運輸的使用因素的這個升或降有很多種因素,譬如說可能疫情的考量,那人不希望積極,那另外譬如說UBIKE恢復30分鐘的免費,還有譬如說路網的比較健全,路網的新增的路網,我想你都會增加使用率,那不過從TPASS實施後,確實像臺北捷運,他的運量是增加了11.26,那桃園"},{"start":7059.96,"end":7060.18,"text":"陶傑增加68.1%"},{"start":7084.522,"end":7091.586,"text":"臺中捷運是增加31.7%不過這個數字當然委員建議說可不可以跟疫情前再做比較我只是希望推出這個政策我想不會有民意代表反對畢竟他就是一個傻錢"},{"start":7110.276,"end":7110.436,"text":"主席"},{"start":7128.906,"end":7131.708,"text":"使用公眾運輸的使用率這個政策才叫做成功"},{"start":7159.626,"end":7173.471,"text":"提供一些我個人搭乘大眾運輸的體驗因為台灣的公共運輸跟國外比確實價格是便宜非常的多所以許多的民眾其實他在乎的不一定是價格許多民眾在乎的是搭乘的舒適度"},{"start":7174.71,"end":7196.702,"text":"我不知道部長最近有沒有機會看到搭公車的民眾因為公車司機的缺顏導致班次減少到每個民眾搭乘公車的時候跟擠沙丁魚一樣他是非常不好的乘車的體驗每一個人在是否選擇公共運輸的時候可能會有不同的原因有的人選因為價格有的人是因為舒適度"},{"start":7198.207,"end":7218.882,"text":"我覺得這個東西我們交通部不要只用一個價格好像就是做一個政策性的補貼好像就好像是在做這個交通政策是一個很大的一個成功好像很多人買就很多人成功問題是買的這些人本來就是在搭乘這種運輸工具對我們政策精神的目標是沒有去達到我們當初的設定的目標我是希望說"},{"start":7220.343,"end":7239.445,"text":"兩個面向我們交通部願意補助我們搭乘的民眾我當然覺得很好但是我們也希望能夠提升我們大眾運輸的搭乘的一個品質包括我上禮拜搭台鐵來我們立院我差點遲到因為第一班我擠不上去阿第二班我是硬擠貼在門上我才搭過來阿這就是搭乘體驗嘛"},{"start":7240.586,"end":7267.328,"text":"那我們唯有雙管齊下我們在搭乘體驗的部分也同步的來做提升我相信才能夠提升我們民眾使用大眾運輸的一個使用率那我希望我們所有的統計的資料不要用美化後對自己有利的一個統計資料來做呈現而已一定往後希望相關的數據都能夠把疫情前的數據來跟疫情後的數據來做比較我相信這才會比較有意義"},{"start":7268.248,"end":7273.569,"text":"我們會虛心來面對﹖那有很多待改善的﹖比如說該提升品質的﹖我們也會來努力"},{"start":7288.548,"end":7317.327,"text":"抱歉 廖先祥委員我們現在請林俊憲委員發言先做一下宣告林俊憲委員發言完畢之後在陳樹業委員發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘謝謝主席本席邀請我們交通部李孟諺李孟諺理部長請理部長那也再一次跟廖先祥委員抱歉年紀大了"},{"start":7320.559,"end":7337.065,"text":"來 部長 是 委員好我今天還是要再跟你討論一些台南的事情幫我們台南鄉親爭取一些來自中央的幫助現在我們在推這個TPASS有一個系統就是藍高頻"},{"start":7339.156,"end":7356.864,"text":"部長你在台南也長期服務過你知道台南的地形是南北很狹長你如果高鐵從台南站上車你要坐19分鐘才會到嘉義等於說你用200多公里你要跑20分鐘才能離開台南所以他南北是很狹長"},{"start":7358.632,"end":7384.106,"text":"因此北台南,就是我們說的KB,西北地區,尤其是大新寧地區,他的生活圈其實根本都不是跟高雄在一起。所以你那個TPASS你用南高屏,根本一半的台南人不會使用。所以台南市政府現在要結合嘉義縣市,要來推一個加加南的生活圈通勤需求,尤其現在,"},{"start":7386.488,"end":7402.944,"text":"這個西北地區也逐步的要開發加益現在台積電也要去投資所以呢現在的TPASS這個加加南台南市政府希望我們交通部能夠予以幫助啦幫助什麼呢他需要一些數字"},{"start":7404.898,"end":7428.264,"text":"什麼數字?就是通勤人數的統計這樣他才可以計算出跟嘉義合作以後的TPASS的價格那為什麼需要推一個嘉嘉欄呢?就讓我們企業的地方尤其是大型地區的民眾來使用你如果以民用到藍科啦比如說以生活圈加以民用到藍科做一個例子你如果一天的來回費差別要多少?要160塊啦"},{"start":7430.56,"end":7441.189,"text":"如果你上班20天啊那一個月通勤火車票要3200塊所以你如果推一個TPASS會大幅的減輕負擔但是現在這個"},{"start":7446.791,"end":7460.957,"text":"加加南的TPASS沒有納入台鐵所以我希望未來要把台鐵給納進來要把台鐵納進那個TPASS的系統裡面那現在因為台南嘉義是不同系統平台啦這個局長知道齁"},{"start":7462.097,"end":7477.554,"text":"現在自己一個系統 台南一個系統因為台南現在贏的是藍高屏系統所以你如果北台南要跟嘉義合作的話第一個 它這個技術的串接還有運具系統的程式修改經費還有票務系統的串聯"},{"start":7478.695,"end":7484.68,"text":"目前臺南有一個299跟399自己的方案那嘉義有一個399的方案那我們現在有跟臺南跟嘉義在協助就是說怎麼樣這兩個縣市"},{"start":7499.774,"end":7505.998,"text":"其實有一些經費更需要交通部的補助例如電子票證的製作民眾搭乘各類的公共運輸如果你買月票有優待票"},{"start":7525.533,"end":7546.316,"text":"那跟正常票價之間的差額 這個部分有 交通部也是可以納為補助項目還有票證系統的建置 還有程式開發跟修改他如果要搭高鐵都要到鋪子 另外有一些人是在家中念書 所以相當的通勤確實是有用"},{"start":7546.556,"end":7547.076,"text":"另外部長我這裡有一個建議"},{"start":7577.264,"end":7586.468,"text":"你知道去年我們2023年全國交通事故的死傷總人數有多少人有54萬2000人那其中騎機車的包含重型機車死傷人數是42萬1000也就是說全國一年的車禍死傷人數騎機車的佔了百分之將近78"},{"start":7605.097,"end":7632.066,"text":"所以其實在台灣騎機車是非常危險而且是佔肇事的死傷人數70倍那我們要如何減降低死傷人數呢就是應該要從降低機車的車禍事故發生來多方面的著手那交通的事故都發生在哪裡其實因為我們有很多地方是沒有大眾運輸工具"},{"start":7634.264,"end":7662.315,"text":"那六都加總起來啦因為人口稠密啦所以六都加總起來又佔了我們機車所有造勢事件的七成因為人多嘛那其實很多地方基本上使用的交通工具還是機車啦他們機車的數目我看有幾乎都是一個人一台啦一千多萬台啦兩千萬台啦那台南雖然是六都裡面人口最少"},{"start":7663.459,"end":7683.853,"text":"但是因為台南的交通大眾運輸幾乎就比較起來啊 台南大眾運輸還是相對的落後所以台南人口雖然六都最少但是啊相較於其他直轄市呢 台南的機車造勢的建樹是全國第四那要怎麼走開人家幹的這個機車的造勢"},{"start":7690.373,"end":7703.544,"text":"所以你要去統計研究也是交通部有發現那交通部現在在推動就是機車駕訓班我們大部分的人去考機車駕照都是自己學自己騎實際上很少人會去機車駕訓班那交通部為什麼你要來推這個其實這是有研究數據的你如果有去"},{"start":7716.047,"end":7743.347,"text":"這次機車駕訓班訓練後扣到機車的價值你後來發生車禍的比例大幅減少有受訓的比沒受訓的在違規方面少了快六成他可能就比較懂交通規則啦我再猜啦違規啦如果有受過駕訓班的比沒有受過駕訓班的肇事 化妝車喔少了36%"},{"start":7745.499,"end":7763.896,"text":"民眾在考照一年後 還有考照三年後 也平均違規率或肇事率都明顯的下降所以現在交通部在推這個駕訓班 但我覺得好過很壞推行到現在還是只有12.6%的民眾 他考照是經過機車駕訓班"},{"start":7766.294,"end":7789.259,"text":"全國平均可以使用的名額都用不完,因為我們交通部部長有地方政府,你如果要靠交通架腳,要去架分班,政府幫你倒出錢,一個人好像出一千三百塊,是不是這樣?但每個縣市財源不一樣,臺北市就很有錢,臺北市幾乎剩下的,臺北市政府全部買單。"},{"start":7791.108,"end":7814.058,"text":"臺南市政府大概比較不行啦民眾一般大概要再負擔差不多將近一千多塊啦將近兩千塊啦但是這個名額為什麼用不完你全國用百分之八十八齁其實都集中在比較進步的臺北、雙北、加拿大臺南的使用名額只有百分之五十七啦不到六成很多地方齁你看平均都只有十幾趴啦全國"},{"start":7817.374,"end":7835.485,"text":"這個使用這個名額的比例啊非常非常低啊有幾個原因啊第一個你駕訓班齁設置的點數還很少啦其實駕訓班跟一般考汽車不一樣啊機車駕訓班有時候少少一個空地就可以啦那其實應該要落實到行政區落實到社區去啦過去齁交通部拿台南做第一個事辦齁交通部讓台南事辦那個就是那個"},{"start":7847.958,"end":7875.197,"text":"機車駕訓班讓他到地方來到比較有社區性不過我希望交通部部長你既然要推這種機車駕訓班那你應該要讓民眾有一個第一個方便性就是你希望他你如果他要去機車駕訓班然後還要跑很遠他基本上你這個普舉率就不拉不起來"},{"start":7876.906,"end":7902.865,"text":"那像臺南的機車駕訓班齁,那個部長,我們台南只有陰空臨地到整個臨路啦臺南就只有這幾個點啦,只有五個點啦而且行政區只在永康仁德歸人啦那臺灣有很多縣市啦,就是在五家以下其中有六個縣市齁,全縣啦,全縣市只有一家啦所以這個便利性啦,一定很不足啦"},{"start":7904.332,"end":7932.33,"text":"還有你去駕訓班應該讓他可以原地考照我們現在有24間醫學部幫我原地考照的那誰要去那邊練習基本上我們現在讓民眾便利就是說他在這個場地如果來練習你應該讓這個地方如果既然是機車駕訓班的場地就應該允許他可以原地考照這樣才對你現在有幾十間都沒辦法提供這樣好不好簡單一句話你要推這個政策我就要讓他推成功"},{"start":7933.698,"end":7942.347,"text":"推到現在那個誘因還有普及率都那麼低啦現在考機車駕照了還是只有12.6%有經過駕訓班那你明明知道機車駕訓班上過課的"},{"start":7948.888,"end":7974.181,"text":"一年三年的統計他的肇事還有違規風險都大幅降低那麼就既然政策要推就要好好的推動好不好跟委員報告就是現在這些很多是新設的那設一年之後就可以經過審核就可以原地考照所以目前還在推動所以大概一年內應該就會陸續增加好我們希望這樣如果你要推動希望能夠全力來協助地方政府來推動好謝謝主席"},{"start":7976.562,"end":7982.587,"text":"李俊憲委員發言完畢．現在請陳素月委員．陳素月委員發言完畢．之後休息10分鐘謝謝主席．請主席邀請李部長請李部長"},{"start":8003.037,"end":8014.989,"text":"有關TPASS通勤月票從去年7月1號上路到今天也剛好滿一年了這個政策的實施我想當初就是希望來減輕通勤組的負擔"},{"start":8017.892,"end":8020.574,"text":"提升公共運輸運量檢討道路交通事故經過實施一年,請部長簡略說一下成效如何"},{"start":8033.741,"end":8051.138,"text":"跟委員報告就是目前整體的公共運輸那經過TPASS這樣跟實施前同期來比較大概普遍公共運具的使用率提升了12.7那其中像臺鐵大概提升了20%"},{"start":8052.679,"end":8080.01,"text":"那另外捷運的部分跟去年的同期比較跟實施前的同期比較都有顯著提升那像桃園捷運大概提升了百分之六十幾以上是就是有我們看到這個統計的資料就是目前就是全國累計已經有達到768.8萬人次來加持購買這個通勤月票那使用的人次也累計到這個5.74億人次的一個使用"},{"start":8080.45,"end":8103.922,"text":"所以我想今天很多委員都在關心事實上我們對於這個TPASS通勤月票的一個實事辦理我們不能滿足於說這個使用的一個人次而是要去確實去檢討說到底有沒有提升這個運量然後就原來的這個運量就是通勤組裡面是不是有真的讓原來自駕的"},{"start":8105.783,"end":8105.803,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":8115.885,"end":8139.051,"text":"是,如果以各個區來分析公共運輸的運量,像中樟投苗,那它的運量從1200多萬增加到1300多萬,提升了大概8.64那確實是有一些移轉的效果,就是說原來可能是利用自由的運具,要有移轉到公共運輸來"},{"start":8140.971,"end":8148.033,"text":"每個地方的效果因為路網密度等等不一所以效果不一定完全一樣我們看到有關TPASS的使用生活圈的統計來看還是集中在北部都會區就是北北桃"},{"start":8160.257,"end":8160.437,"text":"中南部公共運輸"},{"start":8177.447,"end":8203.358,"text":"這個路網或者是班次都相對的減少所以在整個公共運輸的資源上本來就不平均其實所以就這個政策來說基本上看起來我覺得對中南部也不是很公平因為還是直接受惠的還是以北部就是基北北桃的這個通勤組為主當然這是另外一個問題那我們希望就是說接下來我們交通部還會在"},{"start":8204.498,"end":8205.319,"text":"除了TPASS可以持續推動之外"},{"start":8221.648,"end":8246.843,"text":"其實我們另外還有一個計畫就是提升國內的公共運輸包括對於電動公車、市區公車的補助像今年就合訂了新增1900多台希望這些都盡量能夠補助到中南部另外幸福巴士這個也是持續在推動還有各縣市增建捷運的路網"},{"start":8247.884,"end":8255.378,"text":"還有這個相關台鐵班次的提升我想大概要擴大公共運輸的量能確實是需要多管齊下"},{"start":8256.495,"end":8263.397,"text":"對中南部來說公共運輸的建設資源比較少比北部比較少因為我們這樣彰化就沒有捷運目前還在規劃當中這個鐵路就是由北到南這樣縱線的鐵路所以對我們鄉親來說因為交通工具少選擇性就是比較少所以要來使用TPASS的"},{"start":8285.043,"end":8300.247,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":8305.652,"end":8328.631,"text":"目前在彰化縣就是已經合訂然後已經在通車的就只有竹塘鄉的幸福巴士那目前已經陸續在申請已經決標的就是永晉然後和目前還在審核合訂當中的有西州和美那目前就是希望在這些有申請的這些鄉鎮我們也希望交通部能夠"},{"start":8329.151,"end":8330.172,"text":"主堂不是已經通車了嗎?"},{"start":8352.313,"end":8374.879,"text":"主堂另外還有一個路線還有一個路線那相信後續應該還會有其他的鄉鎮會再來送申請那這部分也希望政府能夠多予以協助那剛剛部長有提到說補助這個電動巴士的一個部分可是這個我們還有設幾個問題就是駕駛人力這個缺工的一個問題"},{"start":8375.859,"end":8375.959,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8397.637,"end":8397.777,"text":"李孟諺議員"},{"start":8424.924,"end":8425.044,"text":"區和公園政策"},{"start":8441.741,"end":8455.996,"text":"每個月大概平均透過票價的調整等等提薪的大概5000塊每個月那另外新任新聘任的駕駛受訓期間每天可以有900多塊的這個津貼那最高每個如果他能夠留任一年"},{"start":8456.776,"end":8457.217,"text":"新增新進的駕駛"},{"start":8478.677,"end":8494.701,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":8495.061,"end":8495.282,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8514.622,"end":8542.353,"text":"那這個計畫目前我們應該就是這是運營所在辦理的是不是可以簡單說明一下這個成效如何是跟委員報告一下IJ送的這個示範計畫當然目前是在六都都已經有這個服務的車隊然後整個一個服務的人次大概已經應該有到70萬人次以上那這個是讓受到各個這一個"},{"start":8543.753,"end":8570.439,"text":"包括服務的民眾跟地方政府都希望能夠持續後續能夠來推動辦理那這個部分因為我們是事辦計畫會到今年的這個年底但是後續的部分就會回歸到不免對於所謂的通用計程車的一個補助的一個辦法裡面那會把這個愛接送這個部分未來在營運上面怎麼樣能夠把它的衍生的成本能夠反映到"},{"start":8570.899,"end":8575.103,"text":"對於中南部真的偏鄉的地方因為交通工具就是比較不方便然後子女也都外出要上班所以對連脈的長輩"},{"start":8593.459,"end":8621.654,"text":"如果說有這樣子的一個愛接送可以預約式的通用計程車服務我想對他們幫助會比較大因為剛剛我們提到這個幸福巴士他是有固定的一個行駛的一個路線我想對於一些行動不便的長輩也是仍然還是不夠方便不夠這個便利性所以針對這一個政策就是愛接送預約式的通用計程車服務我們是建議交通部是不是可以就是評估他的成效之後未來能夠"},{"start":8622.654,"end":8623.254,"text":"請休息10分鐘"},{"start":8659.876,"end":8674.283,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8705.517,"end":8724.812,"text":"兩位司法官有聽到消息指望受傷的準備人員是五十五個另外一位司法官是六五個"},{"start":8732.449,"end":8735.192,"text":"那現在會議通常在附近附近附近附近"},{"start":8758.831,"end":8781.357,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":8789.215,"end":8790.755,"text":"本會議的主席"},{"start":8818.842,"end":8819.342,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8830.43,"end":8837.062,"text":"主席"},{"start":8843.676,"end":8844.516,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8861.771,"end":8861.791,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":8894.735,"end":8901.582,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8917.745,"end":8918.586,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":8947.812,"end":8949.594,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8969.497,"end":8992.19,"text":"那另外一則報告．為了這個票跟其他的運營的其他項目．例如說像自行貿易貿易項目．那這個運營大概要多少塊．公車要幾塊、要三十塊．剛才你提到十五塊．那我覺得它的數據又比這兩個運營還要大"},{"start":8994.151,"end":8995.292,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":9013.106,"end":9016.488,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9040.653,"end":9054.439,"text":"希望透過TPASS擴大民主主義和共同社會共同社會共同社會共同社會共同社會"},{"start":9057.1,"end":9059.982,"text":"目前馬車還是跟各區塊的運動隊組在一起?"},{"start":9075.191,"end":9075.451,"text":"主席"},{"start":9112.703,"end":9115.344,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9121.048,"end":9122.65,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9142.67,"end":9144.951,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9171.472,"end":9175.035,"text":"我只好再打一遍吧"},{"start":9202.086,"end":9202.827,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9219.139,"end":9219.339,"text":"主席"},{"start":9255.929,"end":9256.97,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9314.376,"end":9318.48,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":9340.069,"end":9340.51,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9377.278,"end":9379.582,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9394.054,"end":9395.755,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9443.313,"end":9444.794,"text":"繼續開會 現在請何欣淳委員發言"},{"start":9452.691,"end":9457.054,"text":"好謝謝李昭惟我們請部長請李部長部長好在進入今天的質詢主題之前先謝謝禮拜一的一個臺中捷運的考察那部長在事後也有發臉書也有圖卡就是支持臺中的捷運五線齊發那能夠讓臺中更進步那中央全力支持那"},{"start":9482.492,"end":9511.249,"text":"我是希望再借重中央的經驗就是說其他城市的捷運入網尤其像台北市已經成行那我們希望未來能夠參考其他城市的經驗那請中央也跟地方一起把我們台中捷運的五線齊發的一個財務的規劃要如何穩健然後能夠落實而且中央全力支持這個我希望將來部長可以中央的立場跟經驗"},{"start":9512.09,"end":9514.09,"text":"提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒"},{"start":9532.655,"end":9559.314,"text":"不管軟硬體的一個交通基礎運輸是必須要完善的那以台中來講現在有鐵道公路捷運只有一條但是我們也很高興在中央的支持之下我們看到這個數據是來自於交通部公路局的TPASS的專用的網站那以我們113年6月份跟之前去年的112年的8月"},{"start":9561.997,"end":9582.697,"text":"我們比較起來臺中的增加率是最高的增加了227%比原來因為北部本身它原來的這個應該通行證本來就是充分的使用那所以呢雖然它的成長比較少但是還是有成長"},{"start":9584.058,"end":9601.148,"text":"南部也相對的成長的算不錯將近150、140幾所以以TPASS這樣子的一個公共政策行政院的決定是對的他的決策是對的而且真的是對我們全台灣的"},{"start":9602.068,"end":9623.761,"text":"北中南的公共運輸是有增加成長的趨勢尤其台中增加了2.3倍所以我必須要先謝謝行政院謝謝交通部那接著我們就要來討論那執行一年像我剛剛講都有提升但是台中提升這麼大的情況之下我們捷運還是只有一條線"},{"start":9626.365,"end":9654.207,"text":"我期許在剛剛我講的中央能夠努力的支持臺中捷運入網成型而且能夠五線齊發能夠完成除了穩健的財務規劃中央要支持以外最重要的是未來的TPASS的一個政策的延續永續還有是不是有其他加碼的可能性來全力支持臺中的這個公共運輸還有我們的TPASS政策可以在"},{"start":9654.667,"end":9657.27,"text":"的政策感謝委員的大家的支持能夠讓他能夠順利的這幾年來上路那後續我們覺得"},{"start":9674.147,"end":9692.923,"text":"交通部也會來跟院裡面院裡面我認為也是支持的就繼續的來持續延續這樣的政策那但是確實是後續怎麼樣能夠再更精進讓使用率更高那提升大眾運輸的這個這個搭乘我想還有很多各方面的努力要"},{"start":9693.063,"end":9693.103,"text":"主席"},{"start":9708.46,"end":9725.46,"text":"當然我們一般民眾他會使用這個公共運輸的意願就會提高意願提高再加上政府的政策決策的一個引導跟配合跟補助那當然才會改變國人的交通習慣使用習慣"},{"start":9727.822,"end":9745.67,"text":"這在臺中尤其重要尤其臺中的人口正在成長已經是全國的第二大城市如果再加上其他中部的縣市事實上是數百萬的人口的移動人口在這個臺中都會需再移動所以這要拜託部長一定要支持也要要求"},{"start":9746.95,"end":9749.192,"text":"交通基礎設施到底方不方便?"},{"start":9771.909,"end":9791.823,"text":"我們現在看到以這個捷運路網這個是我們未來的願景圖剛剛講的五線齊發在還沒有只有一個一條綠線的情況之下公路跟鐵路是現在接柏進市區的重要選項那尤其是鐵路尤其現在你看到從清泉崗機場要進來市區"},{"start":9795.203,"end":9816.855,"text":"是非常不方便還不方便那我們高鐵呢從新烏日站要進市區也不是很有善之前我曾經跟杜董事長提過包括班次的增加那班次的增加呢就要什麼就要因為新烏日站叫做三鐵共購在三鐵共購的情況之下我們不僅僅是雙鐵啦我現在只是今天只是講雙鐵"},{"start":9820.317,"end":9841.13,"text":"實際上連捷運的便利性都未來要納進去這樣子呢國內外的旅客選擇臺中這個城市要來觀光旅遊的時候他才會方便啦方便的時候那才能夠有正向的一個循環吸引更多人來臺中嘛對不對我今天只是稍微把這個高鐵的到站的時刻從早上到下午"},{"start":9841.59,"end":9860.742,"text":"跟台鐵在新烏日站的一個區間車的一個發車的時刻我只是稍微比對了一下啦事實上我覺得這個等待的時間算長而且還可以再改進進進就是銜接啦那個班車與班車之間的銜接我們是不是第一個我的建議"},{"start":9861.903,"end":9889.482,"text":"有沒有可能呢是不是盤點像台北火車站也好或者日本東京車站也好或者是呢國外的各個國家的一個主要的一個轉運車站轉協車站也好我們去看看別人的經驗怎麼樣的一個等候的時間轉協的時間是適合的是恰當的是符合民眾的交通的習慣跟他的需求的我覺得這個是可以用大數據第一個來"},{"start":9890.202,"end":9890.822,"text":"先請董事長回答好了"},{"start":9919.327,"end":9937.735,"text":"跟委員報告的確最近我們高鐵還有增班是高鐵7月開始要再增43班對所以在這個情況之下我們這個提供的我們的接駁的車輛我們會來跟高鐵配合來研議看怎麼樣來調整這個間距"},{"start":9940.296,"end":9955.364,"text":"部長你就希望要求台鐵基於專業而且他必須要跨雙鐵來協調那如果更進一步的話還要跟地方政府捷運來做協調那如何讓這個轉成轉弦的這個不僅僅是空間的一個問題還有時間的拿捏問題甚至牽涉到這個山鐵公共裡面的車站裡面的營運的問題"},{"start":9968.37,"end":9995.447,"text":"那我相信這個是可以有其他的經驗來研議再加上我再提醒雖然是兩年後會發生的事情再提醒一次高鐵車站外我們鐵道局招商的全亞洲最大的shopping mall2026要開張我們要有預期心理啊現在就要逐步的來調整來面對啊因應啊你兩年後"},{"start":9996.823,"end":10020.062,"text":"那個全亞洲最大的娛樂城如果真的完工開始啟用了之後他未來的人潮車潮是遠遠數倍於現在的規模那我們又該如何因應所以我再一次很誠懇的提醒啦好不好逐步的來調整逐步的以其他各車站的一個經驗來做最恰當的調整好不好"},{"start":10020.382,"end":10040.289,"text":"我想這個部分台鐵會請台鐵跟高鐵密切合作不要讓下了高鐵的乘客轉搭台鐵那等候過久那這樣就會失去接駁什麼樣是適當的等候時間我覺得這個是可以有大數據或是其他各國的大車站可以來做一個比較或者是來汲取他們的經驗嗎好不好"},{"start":10041.209,"end":10041.589,"text":"許智傑委員發言"},{"start":10074.257,"end":10077.42,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長還有公務局陳局長委員好"},{"start":10088.907,"end":10116.953,"text":"部長好部長這個TPASS前幾天我在院會質詢的時候部長有提到先跟交通部感謝一下就是TPASS的確現在獲得蠻好的迴響我從去111年事實上那個時候交通部首次提出通勤月票北北機正好那時候交通部到我們鳳山考察"},{"start":10117.533,"end":10117.673,"text":"那當然﹖好"},{"start":10143.22,"end":10168.517,"text":"還要更好我們的叫做實事求是 精益求精那上一次我有在院會跟部長要求說TPASS是不是可以結合好玩卡那交通部也有在研擬嘛 對不對我想部長可能沒有玩過好玩卡好玩卡其實我們的TPASS是針對交通好玩卡是針對觀光那"},{"start":10171.462,"end":10198.274,"text":"公路局在規劃這個TPASS的時候如果只是規劃公路局的就會變成兩線的獨立行駛事實上兩線如果結合1加1可以大於2所以我希望說公路局跟交通部可以有這樣子的思考未來才會有不一樣的翻轉我舉個例子給部長參考部長這你可以參考一下你大阪那你可能不去選舉"},{"start":10200.424,"end":10222.753,"text":"日本有週郵券跟樂郵券週郵券是實體卡樂郵券是QR CODE他們規劃到多細呢你可以看到他這個語言中間那一條字太小了他們的語言包括日語、英語、繁體中文"},{"start":10224.186,"end":10248.746,"text":"簡體中文、韓語不同的國家要去那邊玩你要看他們的裡面的細部的內容你就可以用自己的語言進去看然後呢你看底下有很多的好玩的點什麼空中庭園長萬台啦天空美術館啦摩天輪啦等等你看喔還有那個美女做代言人"},{"start":10250.171,"end":10278.48,"text":"那他們規劃到這個形勢力上規劃多細跟部長報告所以你看到他7月9號黃色的那一天你只要點那一天那這些旅遊景點哪一些點在今天是休館的哪一些點開放的時間是什麼時候他只要點進去都寫得很清楚所以你如果要去大阪旅遊你只要在網上這樣子看了一下查了一下你大概就知道要怎麼玩"},{"start":10280.093,"end":10305.948,"text":"那包括你看他那邊還有免費景點你出示卡片他會送你小禮物甚至你去買什麼東西會打折也就是說你有人潮才會有錢潮所以台灣好玩卡跟TPASS是不是將來有機會結合這個要出這個電子版那現在年輕人其實到全世界各國去玩他們已經很習慣用這個QR CODE電子版在玩那我們再看"},{"start":10307.228,"end":10326.163,"text":"底下第二行就是未來的TPASS其實交通部可以看看日本跟高雄的Mango卡我們高雄Mango卡其實也做得還不錯那現在應該比台北推得還要好啦但是這個就是從交通部公務局的角度它是TPASS卡"},{"start":10326.994,"end":10342.395,"text":"那從觀光署的角度今天觀光署正好沒來也拜託部長先有這樣一個格局跟眼光那也一起要求觀光署就是說這個搭配在一起他才會玩得更好玩所以呢我們再看韓國"},{"start":10344.834,"end":10359.52,"text":"韓國其實韓國的那個首爾的轉轉卡也類似他們現在在學習大阪事實上大阪這部分應該是除了歐洲之外亞洲應該是大阪做得最好的那韓國他們也在學習他這個轉轉卡"},{"start":10361.435,"end":10367.244,"text":"臺幣在大阪大概1100在首爾大概1500在高雄我們從1090現在陳其邁市長現在把它變成990北北基大概有1900"},{"start":10378.099,"end":10401.668,"text":"那類似這樣子一個卡呢他可以做交通工具可以到旅遊景點那全部都把它融合在一起甚至你上網呢就可以看到我們在看前面日本那一張你上網就可以看到你看這麼多的旅遊景點哪一天啊什麼日期開放什麼這做得很細所以你可以看到台灣在這部分還差很遠我們沒有做這麼細的規劃"},{"start":10404.065,"end":10408.328,"text":"世界博覽會宣揚國威宣傳自己國家特色大阪明年3月到10月規劃3千萬人次"},{"start":10426.294,"end":10442.46,"text":"如果我們台灣館在那邊趁機人家也要吸引3000萬人到這個城市去那我們在那個城市去有沒有去宣傳以及在這個城市世界博覽會之前我們台灣這部分的配套有沒有做好"},{"start":10443.499,"end":10457.587,"text":"假設啦我們就是從高雄來購卡那再加上台北北北基這個其實可以配合這個好玩卡那將來是不是台灣各個不同的城市都可以有這樣子一個推動"},{"start":10458.747,"end":10487.767,"text":"今天假設我高雄人我會來買北北機的好玩卡那臺中人會去買高雄的好玩卡你今天國人要先會用外國人要來才會用所以在世界博覽會這個明年的時候是不是我們交通部跟公安署當然公路局是管國內的公路但是你如果也加上觀光的概念我們有沒有機會去吸引人家去世界博覽會順便到台灣來玩"},{"start":10490.068,"end":10505.934,"text":"文化總會今年去京都要辦台灣PLUS也是一個宣傳熱身也是希望替台灣宣傳包括之前的東京奧運故宮也會去宣傳我們今天大阪有大阪辦事處"},{"start":10506.934,"end":10532.535,"text":"也有我們觀光署的辦事處那我們有沒有做這樣子一個準備我是希望說 處處都是打卡點 步步都是觀光部台灣將來高科技產業國跟觀光文化國需要我們做更多這樣子一個全面性的思考才能夠把台灣這部分再做一個不同的提升所以我在這邊正式的呼籲就是說 最後一行 交通部"},{"start":10533.775,"end":10549.859,"text":"最後一樣,交通部重點要推行TPASS 2.0目前的TPASS是針對交通,未來的TPASS 2.0是交通跟觀光那TPASS 2.0是包括像日本、韓國這樣子一個"},{"start":10555.14,"end":10577.335,"text":"目前我們都是外包 外包效果不好日本和韓國他們都是自己公部門主導當然就是說他可能也會主公司或者是他會有一個法人機構等等但是公部門就會負責去做這一部分比較完整的思考跟效率成果的展現"},{"start":10578.788,"end":10599.974,"text":"外包出去好像外包出去就沒事了我是覺得這個不夠所以是不是請部長能夠仔細做這樣的一個思考然後跟公路局跟觀光署做一個結合那為了我們可以看到TPASS 2.0表現的是不一樣的高度跟不一樣的細膩然後能夠吸引世界的人到我們台灣來玩這部分部長還OK嗎"},{"start":10600.774,"end":10629.814,"text":"是 我想謝謝委員的提醒那確實怎麼樣讓食宿遊構型可以人家說一網打盡是一卡打盡一卡都涵蓋在內我覺得讓觀光客他覺得他只要辦一張卡來台灣旅遊的食宿遊構型都可以在裡面得到很好的這個資訊或者是很好的優惠那我覺得這個方向應該是我們要來努力好 我今天是把這個給部長看了一下就是說你知道人家國家怎麼玩"},{"start":10630.354,"end":10640.589,"text":"那我們國內什麼時候可以看到我們交通部有這樣子一個豐富的內容跟展現讓國人、讓世人、世界的人可以到台灣這樣子玩"},{"start":10642.096,"end":10661.809,"text":"部長有沒有什麼概念時間上有個要求第一個就是他我們現在公共總局會在年底推T-PASS 2.0那這個部分就是會比較短天期比如說5天7天那麼讓觀光客或是讓出差的所以T-PASS有把好玩卡結合嗎"},{"start":10662.369,"end":10681.776,"text":"但是現在還沒有考慮到要把相關的時數郵購把它結合在進來所以這個我們會再跟請公務局跟觀光署大家看怎麼樣對就是我是今天的重點就是一個跨署司的一個交通部底下由部長能夠督導跟要求"},{"start":10682.536,"end":10706.218,"text":"請他們能夠有具體的成果的展現在明年的世界展覽會博覽會到日本的時候我們國內今年就開始做準備那明年他們來也正好可以用得上確實從公路局的角度他覺得我只要解決行的問題那怎麼樣把食宿遊購也都能夠所以要步步都是觀光部啊那個我們的公路局也要有這樣子的思考"},{"start":10706.678,"end":10708.419,"text":"謝謝許智傑委員發言完畢 現在請蔡奇昌委員發言"},{"start":10741.263,"end":10744.704,"text":"謝謝主席 請李部長請李部長委員好 部長好部長這個TPASS這個上路一年了嘛是在議後特別預算裡面我們編了3年200億的經費來做這個TPASS"},{"start":10766.656,"end":10787.604,"text":"本席是非常支持我認為這個對上班族來講其實都是很好的政策那我想民眾的滿意度我們做過調查嗎現在正在因為週年剛週年我們正在做調查現在在調查那你自己的預估民眾的滿意度大概會多高"},{"start":10792.733,"end":10806.619,"text":"目前來講算是這個政策的負評是所有的交通政策裡面負評是比較少我個人滿意度會到什麼程度我目前沒有"},{"start":10807.399,"end":10826.509,"text":"我希望你們積極去滿意度是一定會滿意因為政府3年編了200億來協助這些上班族減輕他們的負擔這個一定是滿意但我的意思是說滿意度之外我們要把不滿意的部分"},{"start":10827.599,"end":10855.984,"text":"透過這個調查把不滿意的部分把它找出來然後來把它加以改正那我看了一下這個交通部這些相關的統計數據如果我們以這個臺灣的各地區我們來做一個比較的話我們可以很清楚的從數據上面看到這個基隆北北桃這個核定的預算數跟核撥的預算數其實都是相對最高"},{"start":10857.004,"end":10874.157,"text":"換言之這個地方公共運輸不論是軌道或者是交通公共運輸網絡的這個比例跟密度相對一定比較高因為人數差距不會很遠但為什麼你看這個合定預算數到預算撥付數"},{"start":10878.487,"end":10890.193,"text":"這個基隆北北桃都比中部跟南部來得高那如果用各生活圈購買人數使用人數以及跨區使用的情形那使用量你可以看得到這個"},{"start":10893.256,"end":10907.789,"text":"基隆台北北北桃很明顯的使用量是大過這個中張投苗跟南高坪那個倍數是非常驚人這個千萬大概臺中才兩千多萬"},{"start":10912.302,"end":10938.121,"text":"這高雄南高屏還有4000多萬那到了這個雞尾尾桃那個是大概快5億了吧所以明顯這個比例是幾乎是不成比例那為什麼不成比例呢其實我們用常識就可以知道這個跟你的公共運輸的量能密度都會有很結的關係所以如果這樣其實我們反過來從TPASS的"},{"start":10940.697,"end":10960.854,"text":"的這個這個好的政策實施反過來講這個更顯得顯示出我們這個中章投秒這個交通建設的緩慢或者頻頻發那當然這個事情不能完全怪交通部因為這個中章投秒也有地方政府"},{"start":10961.634,"end":10989.017,"text":"地方政府對於自己城市的建設的交通建設的積極度也有很大的關係但是不管怎麼樣交通部作為國家整個交通這個主管或者督導的這個機關我覺得這個事情我們不能置身事外不能置身事外所以本席作為台中選出來的立委特別是台中海線選出來的立委"},{"start":10989.881,"end":11002.222,"text":"本席還是要回過這個問題從TPASS的問題來看我們台中這個交通建設的這些問題我最近看到台中市政府送了橘縣的案子當然藍縣"},{"start":11004.259,"end":11023.095,"text":"我們也還沒開始動啦不過局限也送這個本席不反對多線齊發嘛趕快讓台中的捷運的交通網絡能夠早日來合併然後得到中央的補助這個過去本席這麼多年來持續的在爭取所以市政府送案的速度快本席並不反對"},{"start":11024.161,"end":11038.648,"text":"但是本席對局限我就非常的有意見那如果部長你了解臺中的這個地理狀況你就可以知道捷運局限這個001站叫做清泉崗國際機場那清泉崗國際機場離我們海線就清水市區大概3公里"},{"start":11047.882,"end":11071.941,"text":"大概3公里我也把圖標出來給大家看一下大概3公里但是市政府本席已經講過很多次但是本席是中央民代市政府大概也不大鳥我那所以這個短短的3公里卻不願意把它規劃進去所以我看了市政府送到交通部的案子裡面還是依然沒有這3公里"},{"start":11073.689,"end":11097.822,"text":"這三公里串聯了可以串聯高鐵可以讓海線過去發展長期最重要的一個城鎮就清水鎮覆地都可以整個包進去但市政府卻不送案所以本席我一直講過我再三強調這個市政府當然市長有他的權利他對於整個城市的規劃發展本席尊重因為他是民選的市長"},{"start":11098.817,"end":11108.375,"text":"但是啊 送到中央來的案子只要沒有把清水納進去本期對經費 中央經費補助預算本期就大有意見"},{"start":11109.813,"end":11136.696,"text":"本席就大有意見所以我會在這裡就先預告因為這個只是送案來審查那你要通過到未來整個細部設計到綜合規劃細部設計還有一段時間所以對於補助款項的撥補還有一段時間但本席現在先講我現在再講一次如果局限沒有把清水納入"},{"start":11137.837,"end":11166.703,"text":"本席對於中央的補助我就會有很強烈的反對意見我希望台中發展但不可以老是把海線給忘了海線已經相對落後的地方這3公里不把它補起來就交通專業來講就區域的發展而言這個都認為是很不正義的事情所以你的TPASS做得再好滿意度再高對我們那裡的人來講感覺很低"},{"start":11167.905,"end":11171.91,"text":"為什麼感覺很低 啊我問一下就沒有捷運堂坐到時 這TPASS對我什麼錄影"},{"start":11173.493,"end":11201.43,"text":"對不對海線雙軌我們爭取那麼久還好我們當時把把整個台中環線做切割本席在當副院長的時候切割啊要求不可以把海線的雙軌化跟環線一起評估一起評估到現在還在評估嘛所以我們當時把它切割讓雙軌化單獨進行評估所以才可以在今年1月啊這個通過"},{"start":11202.619,"end":11203.626,"text":"這個"},{"start":11204.56,"end":11229.879,"text":"中央的這個相關的這些可行性評估才可以通過那為什麼要切割因為雙軌化不做我們海線的火車班次就非常的少都會集中在山線而海線到今天還在單軌所以總算我們做了一件對的事情你們也這個從善如流遵照本席的意見把它做切割所以今天可以完成可行性評估接下來進入細部設計跟這個綜合規劃"},{"start":11235.34,"end":11261.246,"text":"那雙軌化完成之後我們總算才對比如說你的TPASS我們會有感覺一點是因為我們的火車班次增多了我們海線要去高鐵要到要南北這個做鐵路的時候我們使用這個TPASS的頻率才會高嘛人次才會高嘛否則你中央訂了再好的政策都只是強化那個區域的不公平都只是強化了區域的不正義"},{"start":11262.745,"end":11285.303,"text":"所以本席今天要探討的是從我們海線的例子來告訴交通部當你們對於地方政府當然我講過市政府要怎麼規劃線路要怎麼畫這是他的權利啦但是中央在面對地方政府要上來爭取經費的時候對於這個區域的公平性啊對於區域的正義一定要這個堅持"},{"start":11286.84,"end":11305.134,"text":"那本席這個要求不是不合理嗎如果說我要求你把這路線再拉個20公里30公里到某一個地方這個其實是說實在話本位主義太強但是海線的鐵路雙軌化局限延伸到清水其實這個都是"},{"start":11307.406,"end":11324.025,"text":"政府應該做的沒有道理海線山線塞得要命大家火車密集到那個程度然後火車排不進去但是海線卻放任他這個當軌所以交通部先做了一件對的事情海線讓他雙軌"},{"start":11326.272,"end":11354.44,"text":"那當然接下來施工要快接下來局限短短的這個3公里就可以串接起這個海線阿非常大的一個區域但你卻到這裡市政府不規劃那交通部沒意見所以我沒有辦法要求市長但我可以要求部長在接下來市府的你們相關的對決運局限的會議跟溝通裡面一定要把本期的意見強烈的表達"},{"start":11355.991,"end":11367.589,"text":"強烈的表達否則的話本席會認為這個就是強化的區域不正義啦再一次強化區域的不正義所以這一點我希望部長可以來重視這個問題"},{"start":11370.01,"end":11395.541,"text":"也跟委員報告就是像現在臺中現在只有一條綠線不過藍線目前已經有比較好的進展在過去委員多次的這個催促跟協助現在藍線已經在進行設計的階段那只要機設經過工程會的審議通過之後就可以來辦理相關的發包的階段所以我想藍線已經進入接近實質建設的階段"},{"start":11397.322,"end":11425.47,"text":"那現在局限目前看起來規劃上就是缺這個往清水這一段的是不是來延伸那這部分我們會來跟臺中市政府再做溝通那來看怎麼樣讓這個部分的這個大家的期待能夠可以得到來實現好這是我只是不想講說我知道啦你對臺中市政府的你也不能要求市長怎麼規劃我也不能要求市長怎麼規劃"},{"start":11426.63,"end":11445.502,"text":"但是別忘了臺中市局限要蓋他必須要中央來支持經費中央如果不支持這個局限是不可能可以蓋的所以我希望在審查的時候你一定要跟市政府講這個是蔡其昌堅持強烈要求"},{"start":11446.789,"end":11473.546,"text":"沒有做到這個事情我覺得這個是太荒謬的事太離譜太荒謬了海線不是二等公民啊海線雖然人口沒有市區多啊但是都叫台中市啊回去把那些放在旁邊 遺棄在旁邊讓海線的人當二等公民三等公民這合理嗎這個短短的一小段的路然後可以讓運量也可以增加然後他其實如果 如果啦"},{"start":11475.235,"end":11494.993,"text":"這個市長是我來當我就把他拉到台中港了啦我再連接台中港那又是三公里而已嘛台中港現在發展成這個樣子然後你不把他連結這個我也覺得很荒謬好啦這個後話啦重點就是不可以再放任中央一定要強烈表達"},{"start":11497.327,"end":11525.529,"text":"這個對於這個規劃專業以及區域公平的問題這三公里沒有道理不做最後一個藍線啊剛剛本來我今天沒有要問了時間關係但部長也提到了本席這麼多年來在幫忙協助推動藍線中央的這些相關的經費的協助然後我要問的只有一個問題那個本席要求啊那個港務公司跟捷運共購這個案子交通部有沒有如你們已經承諾嘛齁這個當時的行政院"},{"start":11526.618,"end":11551.005,"text":"也承諾本席臺中港務公司的大樓已經老舊了臺中港長期沒有新的辦公大樓捷運站在那個地方供購市政府我看他也改了圖了那我們到底這個南線到了這個臺中港港務公司的這一站這個新大樓的規劃有沒有同時如期的在進行"},{"start":11552.813,"end":11553.553,"text":"現在請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":11586.616,"end":11590.437,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們一樣先請交通部我們李部長請李部長貴賢好 部長好 部長今天我們討論的TPASS我想也涉及到了這個大眾運輸系統的問題那我也事先肯定也感謝我看交通部在禮拜一的下午也發了一個貼文來講說臺中的捷運五線起發要來支持臺中發展"},{"start":11618.904,"end":11631.595,"text":"臺中捷運五條線,不管是現在的路線延伸,準備要發放的藍線,還有正在送案的橘線跟紫線,還有未來的其他的各項路線來講,交通部會全力來支持。"},{"start":11635.157,"end":11662.523,"text":"信心喊話一下部長如果你真的這個按照臉書貼文的五線啟發全力支持台中把它做好我想部長有一天來選台中市長搞不好會當選我想台中人都很務實也很現實如果你幫我把這蓋好了我想大家都會非常感謝你所以說部長先跟大家跟本席簡單說明一下到底這五線啟發的這個狀況目前的交通部的進度跟市府的幫的這個狀況下面交通部要怎麼協助市府來做到這個五線啟發的狀況"},{"start":11664.905,"end":11693.265,"text":"首先謝謝委員的這個我想第一個就是說藍線藍線目前是整個這幾條線裡面進度最快因為它已經經過中規已經核定而且環評也過環評也通過了所以現在只要它的相關的設計基設的部分經過工程會的審議那它就可以進入包括像用地取得還有包括招標的階段"},{"start":11694.065,"end":11694.365,"text":"臺灣大道、台鐵、相關捷運站、共購方案"},{"start":11724.225,"end":11724.245,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":11739.915,"end":11758.886,"text":"那假設那些細節困難不是馬上立即就可以解決的那也許我們就先繼續往下走比如說可行性先核定那有些部分細節困難要要要後續解決的部分在中規之前把它處理把它完成比如說像綠線延伸到彰化"},{"start":11760.407,"end":11779.131,"text":"當時也是可行先核定但是彰化的這個部分有一個有一個都市計畫張東都市計畫還沒有確定那當時就附帶的方式就是在在中歸的階段之前都市計畫要發布實施所以我想用這樣的原則可以讓一些計畫的進行審議不會因為卡在細節"},{"start":11782.452,"end":11804.505,"text":"好部長謝謝其實我就是要跟你講這個就是過去有藍線的經驗有綠線本就是原則這現在綠線這條的經驗很多時候就真的在可歸在文書作業上這個在時間上拖太久了包含說我們這次送案的這個局限當年送案是民國105年現在民國113年當然都還在這個紙上作業的階段所以我們希望說"},{"start":11806.022,"end":11833.807,"text":"記取前面這兩條線的這目前的藍線已經過了這個綜合規劃那綠線已經正在跑了這兩個線的這個經驗就是文書的這個文件上的作業啊這個會議的流程啊我們希望能夠加速一點有任何的疑問有任何的問題因為我其實過去看到藍線也好綠線延伸也好或是綠線也好很多時候在這個可惜性規劃的時候都是因為會議不斷的開完之後有意見回去再等三個月再回來"},{"start":11834.767,"end":11862.089,"text":"不能有意見再回去三個月再回來有時候光是一件事情一條線來來回回可能一年都不會有實際的進度所以我們希望這個五線齊發這個五線齊發既然這個部長交通部有這樣子的願景那我們希望在這個行政效率上面能夠加速專家學者有什麼想法有什麼意見一次的提給台中市政府讓市政府能夠一次的來給他回應那儘速的縮短這個時間點部長有沒有辦法做到這些事情"},{"start":11862.794,"end":11886.479,"text":"我想台中市是已經是全國第二大城市那確實是應該要有一個健全的捷運的網路才能夠讓台中市民行的安全行的便利更加的提升而且也符合一個國際都市的一個規模跟這個架構那我們會後續這幾條路線我們都會秉持這樣的原則跟中央地方是一個夥伴關係那從來促成"},{"start":11888.459,"end":11916.533,"text":"好 縣部長那提到TPASS的問題其實今天為什麼特別提捷運我給大家看一個數據我這個不是針對高雄但是因為剛好這個南高屏跟中張頭的月票都是999元我們用相同的基準來比較這個數字當然高雄捷運的月運量人次比台中多 非常多那台中現在月運量是只有124萬平均124萬以6月來講的話那高雄捷運加輕軌是602萬那使用TPASS的人數跟比例"},{"start":11917.494,"end":11932.874,"text":"臺中捷運的確明顯的使用月票的比例是83%換句話說所以臺中現在雖然就一條捷運但他使用的這個比例來講其實非常非常高所以我們還是要支持也是支持也肯定說當初推動這TPASS那但是"},{"start":11933.835,"end":11954.996,"text":"我們使用比例高但是問題就在於說我的運量整體的捷運就只有一條所以為什麼今天特別要去提捷運五線奇葩是對台中那麼重要就是因為這個TPASS的確對市民來講他是一個能夠有效的利用的這個工具那我們希望說未來如果台中的月運量人數跟我們台中的捷運的這個規劃的這個線路"},{"start":11957.498,"end":11980.967,"text":"跟追上高雄之後我們如果維持這樣同樣的月票比例我想這個TPASS在推動大眾運輸上面就有實際的效果但是我們回到這個實際面上來看這個TPASS月票使用情況我們當初在推動TPASS的時候除了去讓使用者更方便之外其實本身也應該是希望說有更多的人來使用大眾運輸但是我們從數據上來看的話"},{"start":11983.348,"end":11998.722,"text":"每個月每個月大概每個月的起起伏伏都會有變動但是很明顯的從去年推出來到現在大約去年的10月跟去年的12月人數突然增加到70萬但是今年以來大概人數"},{"start":11999.803,"end":12026.863,"text":"維持在60萬一個月60萬人次左右的時間我想全臺灣兩天300萬人啊一個月大概只有60萬人使用大眾運輸系統而且多數集中在北北基桃那剩下大概80在北北基桃剩下的才是其他地區所以我想問一下部長看到這個數字全臺灣現在加起來一個月有60萬人使用這TPASS的狀況有沒有什麼方式你們有沒有想辦法去提升TPASS的使用的情況是"},{"start":12030.433,"end":12047.934,"text":"確實目前大概平均是64萬就是從實施以來到目前為止那確實是我們覺得這個還有成長空間那所以我們在年底會推出TPASS 2.0那針對不是月的使用量比如說它是短天期的"},{"start":12048.294,"end":12048.875,"text":"還有其他的方案我們會持續來評估"},{"start":12063.796,"end":12082.986,"text":"對於觀光客短期票這份我覺得這個是比較屬於觀光但是我們一樣我想要提到的是說其實應該是針對國內的使用者因為像比如說像TPASS它本身現在的方向是以鎖定區域比如說我剛剛提到的中張頭、高高屏、北北基桃等等是用區域的方式但是以本席自己的生活經驗過去的生活經驗包含可能部長也是啊"},{"start":12083.886,"end":12099.923,"text":"我們以前我是台中人在台北念書所以我固定我可能每個禮拜我都要回台中那像這樣的學生通勤票他是不是也可以有一個吃到飽的狀況一個吃到飽的方案提供跨縣式的或是自選方案當然這是需要經過細部的設計讓層級之間的移動"},{"start":12103.487,"end":12132.132,"text":"跨區域的成績移動他也是很固定式的我覺得要使用我可能用年度的或一季或一個月的方式來使用我覺得這個也是另外的方向去思考這一塊的這個族群因為我想多數的這個很多大專業比如說很多大專業教在台北在這個北北基桃但是全台灣有很多學生他是北上來這邊念書或者是流動人口流動要固定的往返的這一塊尤其看到你看到現在包括說我們很多車站也好不論台北也好台中也好高雄也好"},{"start":12132.312,"end":12132.552,"text":"李孟諺"},{"start":12151.88,"end":12151.98,"text":"部長可以嗎?"},{"start":12173.234,"end":12174.395,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員發言完畢現在請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":12206.92,"end":12209.961,"text":"謝謝主席 請李部長請李部長部長好是 委員好是 部長我們看到TPASS 月票至去年1月上路至今已經滿週年了那其中我們看到我們桃園市捷運113年1月到5月的運量成長約3"},{"start":12233.032,"end":12234.713,"text":"市區公車成長政府有限,您認為主要的原因是什麼?"},{"start":12262.691,"end":12267.477,"text":"全國性來看確實公車的成長大概只有8.4是低於捷運14.9台鐵的17.7是確實是有比較低全國性也是這樣那您認為這個原因是為什麼"},{"start":12282.595,"end":12307.833,"text":"我覺得大概就是跟公車因為他會他不像軌道他是比較準點軌道的時間是比較容易控制那公車有時候會受市區塞車的影響所以民眾對他的那個搭乘的意願或是信任度會受有時候會拖班或者是因為塞車會影響到班次的準確度這是其中一個原因那另外一個主要的因素是因為司機嚴重的短缺"},{"start":12309.614,"end":12320.566,"text":"這是另外一個對這是另外一個那根據我們桃園市交通局的統計今年年初桃園還有272名的客運司機他的缺額逮捕那在我們全市的駕駛人數是27%那這邊下一張簡報謝謝"},{"start":12325.322,"end":12348.793,"text":"那另外112年次我們看到桃園各景區的旅遊人次高達4046萬人次那目前我們市區的公車班次恐怕無法營業這樣子的遊客數那缺駕駛遊客多那也會造成發車等他的那個區間時間拉長那影響有旅客搭乘的意願那對於市區人力荒部長局長你怎麼看"},{"start":12349.54,"end":12379.22,"text":"是 確實是市區客運還有長途的國道客運的駕駛目前都有缺的這個現象那我們交通部大概朝幾個方向在協助包括我們把駕駛的年紀原來限制是要65歲以下提到68那本席也有和 不好意思這邊先中斷部長一下本席也有和我們的王前部長討論過那先前有討論說要開放外籍的駕駛員那這部分進行到哪了"},{"start":12379.46,"end":12402.518,"text":"是 這個部分目前已經把方案提到勞動部了那勞動部現在正在審議的階段那勞動部原則上也支持這個引進類似中階的外籍的人力來投入那另外過去我們包括提升包括協助引進新的駕駛的方案大概已經幫全國各個客運大概增加了2900多位還在審議的階段"},{"start":12404.299,"end":12425.445,"text":"還在審議的階段應該我認為下半年就會有好結果下半年因為7月4號的時候行政院院會我們桃園市的蘇俊斌副市長也有分享我們桃園今年2月中推出的一個計畫叫做授訓級就業計畫那也受到卓院長的高度認同那後續我們交通部有執行就是參考這項計畫嗎"},{"start":12426.673,"end":12449.525,"text":"其實現在已經有一個類跟他類似比如說新進的司機駕駛那在受訓期間每天可以補助900多塊的津貼那另外如果能夠留才久用留任超過一年還有相關的3萬塊的這個補助所以最高一個駕駛新進訓來可以領13萬多所以這是我們的市區的公車包括客運是嗎"},{"start":12450.886,"end":12453.507,"text":"臺北與桃園之間的國道客運缺司機的問題交通部應該協助業者後續我們交通部有和業者討論嗎後續的實際的成效針對我們解決缺"},{"start":12478.752,"end":12502.7,"text":"司機這一部分 國道客運桃園這一段是不是請局長跟您報告一下目前的狀況因為跟各位報告就是說大概就是說缺司機的部分包括就是說這個提升這個公路客運跟市區客運的他們的營運的一個成本的補貼那這樣子的話其實就是說對於駕駛的薪資的部分其實就是能夠提升讓他們能夠留財或是徵財"},{"start":12506.042,"end":12528.373,"text":"訓練方面,桃園市跟公路局一樣,訓練也是要讓他們能夠取得大型車的駕照,取得駕照之後,能夠媒合到他們其他的相關,比如說桃園的客運業者的公司去上班,這些部分的話,其實在訓練的過程中,其實都是訓練完,考上駕照,就可以到這個業者的"},{"start":12529.634,"end":12530.314,"text":"提供提供提供"},{"start":12558.51,"end":12584.381,"text":"旅客運輸還有高鐵接駁功能那也有參考國道客運跨三縣市的程序運輸那應該都是屬於我們中央服務的範圍那部長請問桃園機場捷運月票1200那它的營收補助比例那目前中央還有地方政府是各50百分之各50那不符合比例原則那既然機捷有我們的國際旅客運輸還有高鐵接駁功能加上one fund"},{"start":12584.841,"end":12585.581,"text":"部長可以做協助嗎?"},{"start":12609.004,"end":12623.356,"text":"跟委員報告其實這次TPASS的投入陶傑他的運量大概提升了將近6成6成多那已經從虧損變成轉虧為盈了他已經進入每天的運量有10萬人次以上"},{"start":12624.096,"end":12628.237,"text":"致於這個TPASS負擔比例因為這個有全國性的一致的標準所以沒有辦法為單獨的縣市去做不同的處理"},{"start":12648.26,"end":12657.949,"text":"是那會後本席也會再提供部長資料那再請您做參考好謝謝部長謝謝局長謝謝區議員發言完畢現在請盧明哲委員發言"},{"start":12675.508,"end":12678.133,"text":"謝謝主席：有請我們李部長請李部長部長好 委員好"},{"start":12686.929,"end":12706.419,"text":"因為事實上這三個禮拜五才剛剛完成我們交通組的總質詢針對議題其實也是著重有的時候跟你討論到我們這個機場捷運相關的一些問題那我也趁著是這樣啦因為新的院長我們新的部長很多的一些訊息我們是希望說政策是延續的"},{"start":12707.199,"end":12728.353,"text":"所以我們會花這段的時間會把很多過去到底談的怎麼樣進度如何也希望能夠部長能夠了解當然今天談到一個TPASS在去年上路之後我們看到在我們桃園電子報的一個報導在去年的7到12月整體的公共運輸系統事實上明顯的一個成長成長到86.7%這是根據桃園電子報的一個當時的一個報導"},{"start":12733.436,"end":12759.475,"text":"那我沒有看到到今天為止今天7月10號我下午早上早上的時候我拿到最新的一個數字了就在整個機場捷運就像剛剛部長也有在在這個說嘛機場捷運我們是用112年到今年113年這在6個月同期它的用量到底呈現什麼樣的一個成長的一個數字因為畢竟你的TPASS是在年中才上路的嘛所以"},{"start":12759.955,"end":12787.989,"text":"也看到蠻明顯的一個成長總共從去年的一到六月份去年每一天每日大概七萬七人次使用季節到了今年的一到六月因為剛平均出來他的每日的人次達到十一萬多所以大概成長百分之四十二那我也請這個大眾決定公司去分析啦因為有很多因素嘛也要謝謝鐵道局謝謝交通部"},{"start":12788.669,"end":12805.723,"text":"去年的7月也正好A22通道市區因為多了一站嘛很多市區人就來使用了蠻多元的理由但是我們在預估因為TPASS這個理由至少10%至少也造成了一個非常大幅度的一個成長來帶動成長"},{"start":12808.085,"end":12811.288,"text":"現在回到在我們總諮詢相關的一些問題當然這個減價驗收也是驗收但是現在的一個情況產生的問題"},{"start":12820.41,"end":12845.455,"text":"原本的 要求的車數 達不到 沒辦法原本要求的班距 你應該短短 某個時間10分鐘你就來一班可以載客人 那也做不到那沒有辦法 這已經是事實了啦現在 我們這個討論也不是部長的錯啦 這都 但是已經造成這樣的一個情況所以呢 在載客人次上面 有多重的影響 其中 這樣的一個"},{"start":12846.155,"end":12846.315,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":12872.917,"end":12889.875,"text":"中壢火車站的話那就有很多小站火車的客戶他不見得會坐高鐵啦他就坐這個火車過來從中壢直接轉運那包括他的沿線還有很多的園區的完工所以我們是擔心這件事那你剛剛特別有說集結購車補助"},{"start":12893.533,"end":12915.569,"text":"目前我們在之前達到一個初步的一個共識本來我們桃園大眾捷運公司桃園市政府是希望能夠有這個9直6普總共15列車那後面初步討論的結果變成了直搭車6列跟普通車4列6直4普的這樣的一個概念"},{"start":12916.67,"end":12936.841,"text":"不過我要在這裡特別拜託這也是我上次在前任院長跟部長上一次總質詢的時候因為現在全部都換人了因為我覺得這中間有些不合理的部分希望這個部長回憶要好好研究一下因為現在中央初步給我們的補助說直搭車6列那由中央來補助"},{"start":12938.387,"end":12938.447,"text":"主席"},{"start":12958.695,"end":12976.187,"text":"零啊 不補助因為什麼呢 是你們桃園市甚至新北市 台北市你們自己承繼城市中的運輸所以不補助那我想部長先你初步回答一下好不好你覺得這樣一個補助的一個比例分配理由你自己的初步看法如何"},{"start":12978.289,"end":13001.067,"text":"我的了解這個是根據交通委員會當時有一個會議的記錄來延伸那另外確實是機場捷運當時特別因為他是肩負著國門的這個交通所以不然一般的捷運的車廂的補助在各個直轄市是由各直轄市這邊自己來負擔"},{"start":13002.72,"end":13027.304,"text":"因為季節不一樣所以剛剛委員特別問到因為現在季節事實上都還沒有交接都還是交通部的你要講財產誰的但我們今天站在這裡這整個資產全部都還是交通部的目前我也都還是中央的所以我們在討論這件事情純粹用地方政府的角度去討論是跟其他的一個軌道系統還是真的不一樣"},{"start":13027.964,"end":13044.882,"text":"那你剛剛講的是那一次的這個會刊那天我們的地方考察那也是我們辦的所以在討論的過程就是我剛剛跟你有說明了本來是希望他們能夠有15列車後面達到初步的一個共識說大概只有10列車"},{"start":13046.363,"end":13069.825,"text":"接下來也謝謝鐵道局那之前王部長在細部的去討論說大概初步補助的原則是這樣那我是想請教一下因為普通車在沉寂的一個運輸那未來中南北的軌道工程只要負責沉寂運輸的如果更新申請列車的補助是不是都是0%我就問一下跟鄉親好交代啦你不要說今天給我是0%"},{"start":13070.706,"end":13093.256,"text":"結果人家50%那這個東西我這個委員就做的比較弱一點就這是不是一個原則原則性就是說因為你這個普通車是跑你成績的一些的站所以我們不管是台北新北桃園台中高雄哪裡來只要他的功能是這樣我都不補助是不是這樣"},{"start":13094.709,"end":13116.643,"text":"我的瞭解因為捷運是把它視為是地方自治事項所以是嗎?是不是嗎?都是在興建階段我是希望說興建階段有時候興建階段就會有購車會跟著購車一起我今天這樣的去說最主要的一個原因是就做個結論"},{"start":13117.944,"end":13145.424,"text":"因為你的直達車只有幾站現在比較大的那個我有那個反白給你看直達車就停這些站你說他負責機場的一個運輸然後呢其他的國內各站的各站的人他們要去機場那只有去間車可以坐啊那再來我們再過幾年A223中立火車站中立火車站坐好之後那非常多可能從南部來的小站的一個坐火車的鄉親長輩"},{"start":13146.525,"end":13172.826,"text":"他也要去機場啊他也要出國啊那這個責任誰肩負呢一樣是區間車嘛再來在高鐵站也是一樣我們其實在桃園高鐵站只有在尖峰的時間來搭配幾台其他也沒有嘛所以剛剛講了半天就是你說國門運輸的一個責任其實區間車也佔了非常非常大的功能所以我這個部分我是希望建議我事實上上"},{"start":13173.326,"end":13202.646,"text":"上次總諮詢我也是建議你們回去研究一下除非你們研究結果說我剛剛講的其他區間車都沒有人會坐這個去機場也沒有人機場的旅客會坐這個到哪裡去這不可能嘛有人要坐到桃園高鐵站也只有區間車可以選擇在大部分的一個時段所以我們希望不要是0%啦不要是0%你無論如何他肩負多少國門的責任要講個道理給我們聽請你們回去研究好不好"},{"start":13203.606,"end":13230.82,"text":"第二 最後一個是事實上高雄的輕軌也在排隊所以我剛剛在講因為城市城市之間大家正面的我們希望每一個城市都好那他17列車也要跟你們爭取全部都沒有繞到國門之都他是一個成績的一個車如果你剛剛跟我講是0%那未來到你這邊都是0%那我搞不好也接受啊可是我覺得這樣子是不好的啦"},{"start":13231.3,"end":13232.76,"text":"謝謝魯明哲委員 發言完畢 現在請劉許廷委員發言"},{"start":13264.767,"end":13267.622,"text":"謝謝主席 交通部部長有請李部長"},{"start":13274.059,"end":13298.809,"text":"市長午安 辛苦了這個雖然今天排這個TPASS的專題報告要謝謝召委這是我們桃園非常非常關心的一個題目不過針對這個交通部提出來的報告這個本席就有點小意見這根據你的未來的這個政策的方向這一點我非常滿意就是說我們要透過再推出這個短期試用方案嘛比如說週套票或者是雙週套票這方向本席完全支持"},{"start":13299.309,"end":13322.182,"text":"任何有助於提升大眾運輸使用率的政策我們都非常支持這一點非常好但這不代表我們回過頭來去檢視這一年TPASS的政策成效的時候要放鬆一對這政策雖然是對的但我想中間的問題我們還是要做一下釐清特別是本席來自於桃園大眾運輸通勤族最大宗的居住城市通勤人次這個320萬人次非常可怕"},{"start":13322.842,"end":13350.894,"text":"但是我今天在你們報告裡面我比較遺憾的是我沒有看到詳細的運量分析也就是說我們要檢視這個政策的成效的時候我當然要知道各個公共運輸的運量成長了多少我現在看到裡面看到目前我看到只有說全部平均大概是12.7%部長還有沒有一些補充的資料我們因為本期是來自於桃園我們就看北北基桃這個區塊就好因為你每個區塊不一樣北北基桃這個公共運輸的運量總共成長多少"},{"start":13356.746,"end":13360.973,"text":"其中軌道運輸的運量增加多少?"},{"start":13366.803,"end":13376.946,"text":"臺北捷運、機場捷運等等臺北捷運是成長11.26新北捷運成長23.27桃園是成長68桃園最多嘛對不對60幾%對不對68市區公共運輸公共汽車啦市區公車運量成長多少整體是全國是成長8.4你有沒有北北機桃的數據因為全國那個有入網的問題嘛"},{"start":13394.069,"end":13398.219,"text":"短途國道客運的數字是多少北北基桃的國道客運"},{"start":13402.059,"end":13428.156,"text":"沒關係這一樣你後補啦但這個數字最重要好不好本期之所以問這些問題問得比較詳細的原因是這樣這政策好但滿一年之後要了解這個政策的成效當然要知道各個公共運輸的成效占比你才知道我怎麼樣去調度未來的交通政策嘛那你剛剛講了這麼多的一些你手上有的數據其實你發現這個桃園捷運就是所謂的機場捷運的占比其實是最高的可是同時也表示如果你全國平均12%但機場捷運就占了60幾%那"},{"start":13429.577,"end":13445.425,"text":"那麼桃園自己內部的輸出統計運量成長甚至到85%左右但不管是我們桃園自己的資料或者是交通部的資料顯然都共同指向一件事就是機場捷運一枝獨秀成長很多但是就代表其他的項目成長有限這難道不是一個問題嗎"},{"start":13447.288,"end":13471.379,"text":"機場捷運當然因為人口稠密剛好做變成重劃區 廠商開發有成所以它有它成長的一定的道理但是我們要撇除機場捷運這個特別的個案之後下了這麼多的資源如果運量只有十幾%十幾%的成長我認為是還有改善的空間第二個我本期為什麼要特別問短途國道客運的問題就是因為本期在基層的了解短途國道客運有些時候第一個它成長有限就我所知是低於10%那甚至有些路線因為機場捷運搶客人"},{"start":13473.8,"end":13496.091,"text":"所以它反而變成雪上加霜﹖人被吸走營運未見改善那凡此種種就發現一件事就是說雖然總體的運量是增加了但它難道不是各個大眾運輸工具之間的人的互相流動嗎有可能對不對所以我覺得這個政策真正的成效指標真正的KPI應該是私人運具啊汽車機車的使用率下降多少請問交通部針對這件事有沒有調查"},{"start":13507.191,"end":13519.463,"text":"我希望我趕快拿到這個數字好不好私人運劇的數量下降因為這事關未來我們要花多少資源然後他的政策效益我希望交通部一定要以私人運劇下降比例作為重要指標為什麼因為"},{"start":13520.183,"end":13548.272,"text":"我們要投入TPASS中央也好地方也好大概幾百億幾百億聽起來很多阿但是我講另外一個例子我蓋一條捷運難道不用五百億嗎我蓋一條新的高速公路難道不用三四百億嗎可是你這兩百億給全國的大眾運輸提升我認為是我認為不但不用減少反而應該增加可是要增加增加有道理我們不能讓這個政策只照顧本來就使用大眾運輸的人我們要用這樣子的政策跟其他的配套去帶動大眾運輸的品質提升讓私人運去減少阿"},{"start":13548.892,"end":13563.532,"text":"讓本來開車騎車的人轉做大眾運輸工具這樣子你這筆錢下去的效益就不是只是提升大眾運輸使用率你同時解決了塞車的問題停車的問題那他就變成一個你可能是全交通部裡面縱效最高的一個資源投入嘛"},{"start":13564.073,"end":13581.942,"text":"所以說這些數據我要拜託今天因為時間有限我請交通部趕快收集我剛剛問的北北機桃裡面市區公車短途國道客運還有軌道運輸的運量分別增加多少私人運具的使用率下降了多少這些數據請盡快來提供本期非常支持我認為這個上路一年初步成效是有成果的"},{"start":13582.202,"end":13609.665,"text":"但是針對這些後面的細節的數據分析你給予客運業者支持啊市區公車支持啊路線路網的調整、微調啊做合理的整併這些都是交通部後面要做的配套措施這些一起到位之後下降私人運具的時候我認為不只兩百億啊你每年花五百億我都認為這是一筆值得的投資啦希望交通部用這樣的心態好好的來整頓大眾運輸提升大眾運輸的使用率可以嗎好謝謝部長辛苦了"},{"start":13613.014,"end":13634.048,"text":"好 謝謝劉許廷委員 發言完畢 現在請陳俊宇委員發言好 謝謝主席我們李昭偉 我們有請我們李部長請李部長"},{"start":13638.018,"end":13663.552,"text":"好部長午安辛苦了委員好部長我想請教一下TPASS現在在宜蘭這個使用率我們每天大概有7000位的這個民眾在使用那對於這個部分因為宜蘭縣除了推出這個1800的這個套票以外還有另外一個1200那之前我在3月19號曾經在總諮詢的時候詢問過我們之前王部長"},{"start":13664.272,"end":13680.723,"text":"對於這個部分因為兩張票券的使用這個票卡讓民眾在出門的時候會衍生許多非常困擾的問題那如果拿錯卡被扣款也是被白扣了所以我覺得說是不是兩張卡可以合併可是"},{"start":13681.843,"end":13701.792,"text":"當時是我們交通部是有答應就是會後會跟縣政府來做這個協調那看起來目前這個依然縣政府的態度應該是考量到成本的問題所以在這個兩張卡合併的方面他們可能目前沒有這個想法那未來我們交通部是不是可以再邀集縣政府"},{"start":13703.332,"end":13720.641,"text":"針對這個問題再做一次這個比較緊密的協調我的瞭解目前宜蘭是有一個是宜蘭縣內是750那另外宜蘭跟台北跨城是1800那最近他們也會提一個宜蘭跨城計再加雙北"},{"start":13721.401,"end":13739.115,"text":"因為他可能到了台北還要在雙北之間的這個搭乘各種大眾運輸那個是2300那這三種卡怎麼樣整合一般來講民眾應該只會在三種選一種比較合理跟部長報告一下就是他現在是1800 750另外還有個1200"},{"start":13742.037,"end":13743.018,"text":"這個我請局長跟您報告一下"},{"start":13759.46,"end":13783.456,"text":"跟委員報告因為宜蘭縣府這邊就是說大概也有提案到局裡面來做審查那2300元的這個月票方案其實6月份我們有給他核定了那核定的話其實未來就是說當然就是這一個因為他要整合這個基北北桃的1200所以會變成說基北北桃的這一個他們的系統修改的幅度會蠻大的"},{"start":13785.157,"end":13809.192,"text":"那所以就是說如果說要這個整個是變成一張卡片的話其實那個基北北桃這邊投入的成本是蠻高的所以沿岸縣府6月份提報到局裡面來的時候是討論就是說如果說已經有買到這個1200塊的這一個基北北桃的這一個TPASS的票卡的時候那再加1100這樣子的話就是說也可以取得這個1800塊的這個北宜的這個廊道的這個1800塊的月票"},{"start":13814.275,"end":13841.312,"text":"那所以就是說大概就是說還是維持2300那這個相關的補貼的話其實這個中央也都有給相關的補助那確實是不是說目前他可能是初步是這樣子當然未來的整合如果說能夠用更節省的這個修改的幅度那這樣子的話其實我們也可以來那個協助宜蘭縣來處理這樣子好 局長我拜託就是我們在未來北北基討在討論的時候能夠納入以"},{"start":13843.793,"end":13867.929,"text":"對,能夠納入宜蘭就北北機陶宜一併做檢討看能不能把所有的這個優惠就整合成一張卡這樣子這個部分拜託局長那另外剛剛局長您也有說到這個700元的部分因為他是1800加1200然後縣政府目前是退700塊那退700塊的部分我在3月19也曾經詢問過這個部分是不是我們交通部這邊可以來幫助宜蘭縣政府對700塊的部分來做補貼"},{"start":13871.311,"end":13897.428,"text":"因為這個部分還要再精算跟委員報告就是說因為全國的那個TPASS的定價因為定價是比如說你到底要收多少錢是地方政府定的可是中央有一個原則也就是說我們基本上就是說我們最多就是整個票價在這個成本裡面不能低於三折啦所以就是說我們也就是說中央最多就是說整個的如果說這個需要補貼的大概是70%"},{"start":13898.829,"end":13920.03,"text":"那所以精算以後當然如果說這個精算以後這個這個700塊如果說有一些部分他都是不會低於三成的部分的話我們其實是可以補貼他的好這個部分再請我們局長這邊再精算看看那另外我們現在後續將推出這個這個TPASS台灣PASS這個TPASS2.0"},{"start":13922.827,"end":13940.507,"text":"那這個部分他可能就是台灣PASS的升級版那相關的這個配套我相信應該非常的這個完整那也可能對於這個乘車的民眾可能會有許多的幫助可是我感覺到就是說事實上對於觀光旅宿業來講並沒有實質的一個幫助的誘因"},{"start":13943.991,"end":13960.5,"text":"所以我有一個建議就是說對於我們未來再推出的這個升級版的部分是不是可以考量到觀光旅宿業那對於他們的部分我們是不是可以在這個車票補助的時候憑住宿票券可以再減少多少費用有沒有可能是這樣子"},{"start":13961.698,"end":13965.239,"text":"這部長再請局長跟部長多費心另外我再用一點時間我還是拜託我們部長因為說實在的在這個"},{"start":13991.843,"end":14008.356,"text":"國道的車流量我上次詢問過就是說我們在近期內好像有發現到國道5號的車流量已經有回復的情況可是這個回復我這幾天觀察並不是這個到宜蘭的遊客住宿的情況他可能是單日的旅遊"},{"start":14009.236,"end":14032.762,"text":"他去到宜蘭之後可能今天傍晚就回程了所以並沒有辦法達到讓這個呂蘇業的這個住房率提高那我這幾天觀察我們宜蘭縣的這個觀光呂蘇業住房率還是沒有辦法回復到去年的這個同時間的八成現在目前應該是大概三成多而已也沒有辦法有比較好的方式來這個復甦所以我還是建議說在0403"},{"start":14037.443,"end":14062.731,"text":"正後的相關這個振興方案拜託這個部長是不是可以重新審慎評估讓宜蘭縣加入這個輔助的方案我們再來做一個包括住宿率的部分的一個整體評估來考量好 這個部長再拜託你以上謝謝部長 謝謝局長好 謝謝陳俊宇委員發言完畢現在請游浩委員發言"},{"start":14084.26,"end":14088.425,"text":"謝謝大會主席召委那有請部長還有局長請部長、局長"},{"start":14095.387,"end":14119.76,"text":"委員好部長好那本席在這裡還是要再次感謝也肯定我們部長之前本席所提的終結延伸到南投在後續看到相關的報導您有延伸到南投的許多的意見也都有在媒體前公開表達交通部的重視在這裡也代表南投縣政府跟您表達致謝"},{"start":14120.62,"end":14145.372,"text":"那包括局長其實在這個公路的部分其實在南投縣地方的幹部都都積極的協助配合那也謝謝局長那本期在這裡依舊是就教這個我們南投縣鄉親的這個交通權益那以及交通南投縣那個交通的發展如何能夠更為便利那來進行探討那延續剛才陳委員所提到的那其實"},{"start":14146.272,"end":14169.598,"text":"上次我們有請教部長就是有關於因為南投縣的鄉親在竹山路區他的生活圈跟雲林縣包括斗六他是比較相近那時候有請局長到時候在南投縣政府以及雲林縣政府在去溝通協調的時候能夠積極來去做一個就是串聯"},{"start":14170.538,"end":14170.858,"text":"請問目前進度如何?"},{"start":14185.635,"end":14200.616,"text":"跟委員報告就說因為像雲林縣的就是說他TPASS的這一個月票的方案的話其實有一些的那個公路客運的路線是從南投過來就是說南投雲林銜接的這條路線的話其實是有納入整個月票方案的"},{"start":14201.016,"end":14222.078,"text":"那所以就是說更就是因為因為臨近的這一個比如說南投現在他是在這個中張頭苗裡面不過就是說因為南投雲林那這些部分的話就是比如說包括既有的各縣裡面自己本身就是說把這個跨縣市的這個公路坑已經拉進去了那如果說他有更進一步的就是說比如說方案的話"},{"start":14222.518,"end":14239.714,"text":"其實像最近有些鄰近的縣市他們也在談論說他們這個生活圈業在同一個縣市裡面往北往南其實是有不同的一個範圍所以他們現在就是說相關的縣市其實也有相關的一些提案那我們也都會願意來就是說來協助他們"},{"start":14240.555,"end":14260.771,"text":"那還是積極的就是請局長這邊能夠在兩個縣市之間的溝通那能夠強化因為目前這件事因為鄉親他們反映這路線上來講他因為跨縣市在適用範圍的這個類別上造成民眾的一個就是不適應或者是他們也反映需求嘛那同樣的"},{"start":14261.351,"end":14283.539,"text":"我要接著請教PTT的第1頁就是有關於這個價格的部分那因為他有一個價格的落差那我想先接著請教一下部長有關於財化法的一個重新版本那部長因為你也擔任過行政秘書長你是不是會覺得其實財化法也需要做一個重新的一個檢討或是重新的一個審視這樣"},{"start":14287.242,"end":14314.901,"text":"財劃法目前我的瞭解確實是各縣市政府都期待能夠有一些比如說增加統籌分配款不過從中央執政的角度確實是不只是地方的建設我們還有很多包括像國防外交等等都是需要還有挹注產業都是需要中央集中國力來做重新的資源的分配"},{"start":14315.541,"end":14341.884,"text":"所以確實是有他的這個不同的角度我是覺得重新檢討啦重新檢視採訪法因為我們看到這個是中張投的這一個資料那包括中張投苗他的這個價格那在南投縣、彰化縣都是699那但是在台中市他是299那所以說在這樣子的一個票價的一個比例啊我們看到的是富者越富、貧者越貧"},{"start":14342.805,"end":14357.562,"text":"在南投縣要去搭乘這樣子客運的反而是更多的長者他們反而不付他們這樣子的一個票價那其實看得起就是說生不起孩子買不起房子甚至連搭不起車子都有可能那如何能夠"},{"start":14357.602,"end":14378.669,"text":"能夠在這個票價的部分能夠去做一個補償或是補貼來協調縣市政府當然這就凸顯了臺中市的財源他們是比較豐沛那像南投縣算是窮縣那這樣子來講我們大的價格也比別人高那如何在這個交通部這邊能夠協助讓那個價格能夠更為合理能夠進行補貼"},{"start":14385.511,"end":14394.039,"text":"補貼其實像這個直轄市的部分其實我們像TPASS的部分直轄市的主管的這些公車捷運的話其實我們只有補貼50%"},{"start":14395.68,"end":14397.321,"text":"提出對縣民的補貼所以南投縣這邊是提"},{"start":14425.35,"end":14454.81,"text":"所以說在這裡就凸顯了財化法的一個重要性那這個表示說如果地方新市政府的財源如果較為豐沛的話也可以配合中央的政策來讓許多的包括比較社會福利的部分有更多的經費的來源能夠補貼那同樣的也在拜託這個部長跟局長這邊一樣在持續的協調這個南投縣政府以及包括地方政府的部分如果在票價可以更符合民眾的需求"},{"start":14455.33,"end":14456.83,"text":"登記諮詢委員．均已發言完畢．做以下決定報告及詢討完畢"},{"start":14484.793,"end":14506.443,"text":"委員．於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料．或未及答覆部分．請交通部競速以書面答覆如本次全體會議．為本會期最後一次．亦是入授權主席合併後確定本日議程處理完畢．散會"},{"start":14522.87,"end":14522.89,"text":"暫停會議"}]}},{"id":"16086","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16086","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373df83f7170d9d56c8790a0be61fea1481828aaa308df9ea37347685105230a6c5f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-10","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-10T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T12:15:00+08:00","duration":13470,"影片長度":"03:44:30","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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府不知道還在自欺欺人"},{"start":2592.028,"end":2598.433,"text":"不要再做鴕鳥了我們的重大的政策精靈排版或者是我們要發展AI產業我們的電力的問題一定要解決另外我看到我們的卓內閣政府官員還有很多政治人物一直說這個要有社會共識啊有沒有社會共識呢我跟大家提出來"},{"start":2617.594,"end":2634.639,"text":"美里島電子報在今年的7月2號發布他最新的一個調查他問立法院該不該去處理這個核電演繹的相關立法高達64%的受訪者支持立法院應該要來做核電演繹的一個修法"},{"start":2644.204,"end":2650.247,"text":"所以如果你不相信美麗島電子報行政院趕快去做調查去做民調啊不能嗎天天在講說要有社會共識社會已經有共識了60%不是共識嗎好那過去呢大家常常講說哎呀可是周邊都反對啊好我直接告訴大家"},{"start":2666.381,"end":2678.867,"text":"現在我們在做河山廠的一號機的這個廚藝結果呢現在地方的其實支持支持能夠繼續然後恆春鎮長他說啊河山研議是在地人的希望啊這是恆春鎮長事實上呢在周邊四個鄉鎮以河山廠周邊四個鄉鎮恆春鎮"},{"start":2696.124,"end":2717.398,"text":"牡丹鄉、滿洲鄉、還有車城的居民都認為河山場應該要研議。」所以我覺得很奇怪我們的屏東的民意代表為什麼沒有辦法去反映這幾個鄉鎮他們居民的一個意見跟看法呢?但是我們看到了"},{"start":2718.098,"end":2722.459,"text":"我們要幫他們反應為民喉舌所以這是我們今天為什麼來趕快來討論相關的我們核電研議的相關條例以上的說明也希望行政院剛才如同翁曉琳委員講的其實我們今天修的法你們還要啟動相關的行政程序包含核安還有包含準備其實都有相關的行政程序所以我們"},{"start":2746.627,"end":2769.473,"text":"在法能夠通過之後讓我們的台電跟經濟部能夠為我們所有這樣的一個台灣不缺電能夠供電足夠逐一因應我們相關的政策來做好準備以上謝謝好謝謝王鴻薇委員現在呢我們就請核能安全委員會的陳主任委員進行報告報告時間8分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2780.742,"end":2791.545,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生大家好今天貴委員會審查王鴻薇委員等19人、邱鎮軍委員等22人、蘇清泉委員等26人"},{"start":2795.024,"end":2816.567,"text":"羅志強委員等21人以及翁曉琳委員等19人分別擬具的《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》本會受邀列席報告自感榮幸首先對於大院委員對核能安全委員會的各項工作的支持及指教至上敬意及謝承"},{"start":2817.708,"end":2844.993,"text":"以下僅從核能安全委員會的管制的角度就核電廠的現況以及核子反應器設施管制法換照規定的修正草案提出報告敬請各位委員不吝指教核電廠研議目前各界仍存有不同的意見需要尋求社會共識此外也涉及核能安全、核廢處理以及等問題需要審慎評估充分討論"},{"start":2847.153,"end":2856.742,"text":"核安會作為獨立的核能安全管制機關本與法定職責執行專業的安全管制為民眾安全把關"},{"start":2859.039,"end":2875.965,"text":"依照現行的核管法及相關執法規定,運轉執照,借其要繼續運轉。經營者應在執照借滿前5到15年依照規定提出換照,未依規定換發執照不得繼續運轉。"},{"start":2878.644,"end":2907.214,"text":"換照申請規定的期限是參考美國的做法主要是考量主管機關的審查以及電力公司答覆審查意見所需要的時間並且在執照屆期前完成必要的檢查跟改善使到機組能夠在原執照屆滿後能夠持續運轉目前國內合一二三廠的各部機組經已超過運轉的申請期限"},{"start":2908.888,"end":2929.639,"text":"目前核一、二廠的運轉執照均已屆期已進入除役的階段機組狀態跟運轉的期間已經有差異其中核一廠部分設備也已經拆除核二廠目前正進行除役的準備工作核三廠目前正常運轉中兩部機組運轉執照也即將在這個月的27號跟5月17號明年"},{"start":2936.738,"end":2960.936,"text":"一法必須停止運轉,核一、二廠的用過燃料池已盡滿儲,核三廠用過燃料池儲存空間有限,也僅供運轉約四年多的期間。因此,無論儲役或延役,幹事儲存設施必須興建啟用,才能夠接續後面相關的作業。"},{"start":2962.318,"end":2984.126,"text":"核一二廠室外乾除設施部分,核一廠已經開始隨途保持的改善工程並安排進行熱測試,等到本會審查通過後才會核發運轉執照。核二廠的部分若新北市政府核發水保計劃即可以開始興建,若順利預估約三年左右可以運轉。"},{"start":2985.66,"end":2998.133,"text":"事內乾除設施部分,依據台電公司的推估,完成發包後大概7年可以取得運轉執照,核安會也會全程管制乾除設施的安全。"},{"start":2999.383,"end":3017.951,"text":"中時暫時儲存或者是最終處置為必要的設施,何能先進國家如美國等現在也未能定案。國內因為選址不易,民眾溝通以及地方政府的態度等因素也是難以解決的課題。"},{"start":3020.182,"end":3032.935,"text":"核電廠研議應該要檢視安全性跟可行性,對我國而言更需要嚴肅面對天然災害、複核式災害的影響。核安會將會從機械設備、電氣儀控、廠房結構、輻射防護等各專業領域"},{"start":3040.172,"end":3060.165,"text":"嚴格執行安全審查跟現場視察,唯有確認機組狀態符合安全的要求,才會同意犯花運轉執照。至於審查的期程,需要視經營者所提評估資料的完整性,對審查意見的回復的實效,以及核電廠個別機組的狀態而定。目前估計約3到5年,"},{"start":3067.086,"end":3070.484,"text":"針對各委員所擬具的核官法第六條修正草案。"},{"start":3071.513,"end":3096.105,"text":"合安會競表尊重。」委員所提的草案的部分經營者應就機組運轉安全進行評估確認符合法規之後使得提出核電廠再運轉的申請案而審查係基於專業與安全的基礎上並沒有簡約判斷的程序唯有經過主管機關審查同意換照之後才能夠繼續運轉"},{"start":3097.901,"end":3119.17,"text":"另外,研議屬於核能安全以及公共利益的重大事項,已以法律條文具體明確來確定。目前,國內大眾對於核電廠研議仍存有不同的意見,特別是針對核能安全、核廢處理、社會共識等議題,需要審慎評估、充分討論、溝通。"},{"start":3121.189,"end":3141.773,"text":"核安會作為我國獨立的核能安全管制機關跟國際的核能先進國家的管制機關一樣本於職責與專業為民眾的安全把關以上報告敬請各位委員先進不吝指教謝謝好,非常謝謝陳主委謝謝接下來我們請經濟部連次長進行報告時間3分鐘"},{"start":3149.707,"end":3163.753,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好。大院委員擬具《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》案,其宗旨在於修改核電機組申請研議時的法制程序,或是希望延長國內核電機組運作時間。經濟部尊重大院審議情況。"},{"start":3169.113,"end":3189.61,"text":"最近歐盟雖然已經有將核能納入永續融資的項目但是它的條件是需要在2050年前確立高階核廢料最終處置場且低階肥料最終處置要能開始運作核能基礎在運轉除面臨本條例修正草案之規範外核廢料最終處置要能"},{"start":3190.31,"end":3213.962,"text":"有很好的配套措施推動才是永續而且負責任的做法而台灣高階核廢料最終處置場所面臨選址無法源而調查遭民眾抗爭在低階核廢料最終處置場因地方政府拒絕辦理協助辦理公投而導致無法繼續推動另外在討論本條例修法的同時高低階廢料的"},{"start":3215.083,"end":3225.193,"text":"核廢料的選址條例的立法及修法也應要同時納入討論,有序地推動核廢料最終處置。另外,為確保核安再運轉需進行核電廠安全總體檢、結構設備組件受其管理、設備態換更新、輔導安全強化及耐震補強評估並準備相關計畫,我們會配合核安會的一個審查。"},{"start":3240.427,"end":3249.992,"text":"另外對於社會核電能有使用不同的意見,這如果要再運轉一定要取得社會共識才能進行,那以上不報告,敬請各位委員指教。"},{"start":3272.035,"end":3290.895,"text":"雖然核電有缺點,但核能帶來的災害跟全人類的滅絕不能相比。如果大家了解的話,就知道人類社會沒有多大的選擇,檢判要到位,不然我們會跟恐龍一樣滅絕。"},{"start":3292.7,"end":3318.48,"text":"這句話是誰說的是賴清德的氣候委員會的顧問李遠哲先生也是民進黨一路力挺民進黨的教改大師李遠哲先生昨天講的我希望今天所有的政府官員們你在審查今天的法案在野黨誠心誠意為民進黨找出一個解套的方式我希望大家聽進去"},{"start":3320.202,"end":3349.023,"text":"不聽羅志強的話就聽聽李遠哲的話我必須說李遠哲這觀點我非常遺憾因為十年前就有人說過類似的觀點一模一樣的觀點就是馬英九前總統十年前就已經提出預言了啦結果呢被民進黨打得落花流水完全不聽不踩蔡英文非核家園就是硬幹到底"},{"start":3350.506,"end":3377.46,"text":"我要跟大家說先知先覺的馬英九的話你蔡英文不聽錯過了黃金十年能源做很多的更好的一個配比來延續核能這世界主流的趨勢先知先覺的話不聽台灣已經晚了十年了但你起碼聽聽後知後覺的李遠哲的話吧賴清德李遠哲以前也是挺非核的"},{"start":3378.717,"end":3392.169,"text":"你要不要聽聽李遠哲後知後覺的話?現在氾濫毀物、撥亂反正、重新改正能源政策的錯誤,亡羊補牢時有未晚啊!"},{"start":3394.008,"end":3411.354,"text":"所以拜託今天所有在野黨我們今天心心念念為什麼提了這些讓民進黨還可以救救台灣能源政策盡盡公民的地球責任不要走到今天李遠哲說的是滅絕人類的幫兇的這一條路開了這一條門這一條路這一扇門剛剛聽了官員們報告不痛不癢啦"},{"start":3421.735,"end":3446.466,"text":"你有沒有從李遠哲的角度去想這些事情有沒有看到今天已經是迫切的緊中深深想敲響著我們今天未來台灣能源政策的重大危機有沒有聽進去啊先知先覺馬英九的話不聽聽聽後知後覺李遠哲的話不要當一個不知不覺的民進黨不知不覺賴清德不知不覺蔡英文謝謝"},{"start":3447.762,"end":3448.022,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":3469.352,"end":3478.92,"text":"範圍雲質詢結束之後就進行處理。處理提案的時候若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場,我原力不處理。首先我們請發言登記第一位的萬美玲委員質詢。謝謝。好,謝謝召委。我們有請經濟部聯次長、台電的曾董事長以及河安衛的陳主委。好,請問請三位,謝謝。"},{"start":3498.083,"end":3507.153,"text":"委員長好首先我就先就叫我們連次長我想上個月我們賴清泉總統成立了三大任務編組委員會那預計每季都要定期來開會那這個核電廠研議的問題會在國家氣候變遷對策委員會中來討論那這個月底也即將要第一次開會了那請問一下經濟部我們知道這個氣候變遷委員會要討論的題目是哪些嗎"},{"start":3521.051,"end":3525.055,"text":"主要是討論有一些能源結構還有核電的相關的問題主要討論能源結構還有一些核電的相關的問題所以到底要討論的項目你並不知道?"},{"start":3531.981,"end":3535.702,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":3554.848,"end":3573.342,"text":"所以我們提到2023年能源佔比我們綠電佔了9.5%比核電的6.3%還要多可是我們氣候變遷對策委員會的召集人副召集人童子賢說道他說綠能是間歇性能源沒有能力提供穩定的供電經濟部認為綠能有辦法提供穩定的供電嗎?"},{"start":3576.764,"end":3595.297,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件及核子反應器設施管制法"},{"start":3602.54,"end":3625.195,"text":"我想應該是我們政府會好好去做一個完整的一個規劃我們也希望啦但是現在看起來好像沒有一個好好的規劃如果按照你們現在所說的說這個我們有辦法來做一個穩定的供電喔我就講本席的選區啦為什麼從四月到現在不斷的在停電一直在停電一直在跳電喔那甚至於進入夏季以後到七月一號二號三號桃園還是連續三天的來跳電現在連醫院玻璃桃園醫院都停電那麼連這個機場都跳電喔"},{"start":3632.259,"end":3653.603,"text":"你知道嗎?其實玻璃桃園院跳電那一天的狀況那是還好是不是運氣好還沒有出人命這醫院跳電何其嚴重機場跳電何其重大那現在我們口口聲聲左一句不缺電右一句不缺電所以我想在我們台電五月在這個卓院長在視察的時候來桃園視察的時候台電進入狀況內好嗎?"},{"start":3660.171,"end":3668.302,"text":"我們在五月份這個德院長來桃園視察的時候有說會全力穩定桃園地區的供電那今年也投入了八億去改善這個線路跟弱點的一個設備那兩個月過去了現在我們看到到處停電跳電又是小動物出沒"},{"start":3677.173,"end":3702.064,"text":"哪來那麼多小動物出沒啊?玻璃桃園醫院那一天其實我們大家就非常不能接受了神的保證每一次運氣都這麼好都不會出大事喔所以我想我們發現這個停電跳電一下說是小動物一下又說是這個陷入老舊啊等等啊從來不承認這是這個供電不穩供電不足啊我記得本席在這個5月29號的時候曾經要求經濟部我們在一個月內要由外部的這個專家學者來組成"},{"start":3704.045,"end":3719.177,"text":"停電跳電原因的調查委員會當時也有承諾說會來組成來針對大規模的停電來做但現在看起來還沒有那我請教一下台電我們現在桃園這樣子平平的一個跳電一個停電是不是其實就是缺電了"},{"start":3720.411,"end":3745.751,"text":"委員您剛才提到的幾個例子喔都是在我們備轉容量率非常高的時候發生的事情所以那個跟供電夠不夠是兩件事情那台電一直在說明就是這一些線路的問題其實包含我們知道說桃園市是這幾年來人口成長最多也是用電量成長最快的地方所以我們有很多虧線的負載其實已經是超過原來的設計"},{"start":3750.094,"end":3750.614,"text":"我希望能夠調整它。"},{"start":3774.059,"end":3793.574,"text":"我們今天審查核子反應器的管制條例我們幾位委員提案要來解除核電廠研議至少要五年前申請的限制其實這是為了台灣的能源政策跟我們乾淨的發電我們要多留一個選項留下這個選項所以主委我想請教你今天我們五個這個版本條文如果通過核三廠會自動研議嗎?"},{"start":3795.677,"end":3815.858,"text":"如果修正通過以後,我們營運者,我們台電是不是還是跟現在一樣?我們是要第一個,如果我們要研議要向核安會來申請,並且經過審查。然後呢,審查完以後確認安全無虞才會發給這個執照,之後才能夠繼續運轉。如果沒有提出申請也無法研議,對不對?"},{"start":3817.785,"end":3834.071,"text":"是的,好,那所以依照核安會專業的角度來看,來出發,這一次修法通過之後,您認為會不會有核安的疑慮?如果你認為是有,又會是什麼?那個核安的部分,台電必須先去檢視他想要研議的機組。"},{"start":3835.291,"end":3854.391,"text":"那這個部分他必須寫一個報告,那我們有一些規範,就是整體性的老化評估、老化分析、實現安全分析,那這個東西在我們所有的規範裡面的目錄大概有多長?主委,本席只想問您說,這一次我們如果今天的修法條文通過以後,有沒有會產生核案的疑慮,就這麼簡單?"},{"start":3855.572,"end":3855.592,"text":"案。"},{"start":3866.898,"end":3891.156,"text":"主委根據我們這個相關的審核的辦法第16條來看如果要繼續運轉目前是要5到15年之前就是5年前要提出申請可是我們看到同辦法第19條我們有規定審查的期限是由主管機關公告之也就是說核安會還是有相當的決定權嘛 對不對所以如果說我們修法拿掉了5"},{"start":3891.857,"end":3906.463,"text":"到15年這個限制的這申請限制那我們怎麼審查或者審查多久那怎麼樣去確保安全這是不是都還是操之在核安委的手上您認為對嗎是的但是一切都是以專業安全的考量"},{"start":3907.083,"end":3917.818,"text":"那當然嘛所以這個就是核安慰的功能嘛那當然是要借助專業嘛怎麼可能說任何一個人說了就算數當然是要你核安慰嘛所以呢我想喔我們今天要修把這五年的期限拿掉那事實上真的是喔"},{"start":3923.305,"end":3930.467,"text":"實施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":3950.516,"end":3975.643,"text":"第一個我們執照是給40年所以到今年7月27他必須依法停機那麼如果通過那台電必須還要準備一個安全的報告我剛才講說研議的報告那麼他要是機組的整個情況那麼做必要的設備的更新那麼我們送到核安會來才會開始審查所以這個需要比較長的時間以上報告"},{"start":3976.603,"end":3982.453,"text":"所以您還是沒有回答嘛那如果今天修法通過了以後核三場一號機組有沒有研議的條件跟空間"},{"start":3984.193,"end":3991.599,"text":"這個目前沒辦法估計,這個還是要由台電先來做評估。好,我想諸位我們要確保核能安全其實就是核安委的職責沒有核安其實也不會給予執照也不會到今天我們這個核產廠還在運轉所以我想我們今天這樣的一個修法我想是為了核電研議的備用留一個選擇的機會那不然只會讓我國在核能跟核安方面的技術去停滯會跟不上國際的一個發展的趨勢那我們希望我們針對問題"},{"start":4011.795,"end":4018.38,"text":"那麼今天其實希望主委能夠把這個事情說清楚講明白不要讓這個大眾有誤解好不好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝外媒林委員我們有請柯智恩委員柯昭偉質詢"},{"start":4040.748,"end":4051.522,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請河安會的陳主委還有我們台電的我們的曾文森董事長還有包括我們的經濟部的次長連次長三位請三位官員被質詢,謝謝"},{"start":4055.182,"end":4063.747,"text":"好,非常謝謝三位,我想核能問題大家就非常的關心,雖然經濟部才是真正能源的主管機關,但是有關核電的這個研議的問題卻落在這個所謂的核安會這個三級單位當中,然後大家可以看到各部會只要提到核能都是互踢皮球。"},{"start":4074.013,"end":4075.314,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具 «核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件事項》案"},{"start":4095.745,"end":4098.689,"text":"道法令是要由台電這邊要提出要台電提出申請所以說呢台電如果不提出申請的計畫即使這一部法通過還是被動的躺在那邊可以就對不對"},{"start":4109.548,"end":4115.391,"text":"對嘛,我現在只問嘛,是不是如果我們今天討論了半天每個人都想要來抗爭,昨天晚上外面一堆人抗爭,一直在討論這部法,這部法如果僅僅修過的話,台電如果不送出演繹計畫的話,是不是就是被動的躺在那邊而已,是不是?我只回答是或不是。"},{"start":4130.939,"end":4132.04,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":4151.995,"end":4171.921,"text":"台電必須要做任何的研議的工作都要先做安全的自我檢查我當然知道每個人都是阿你現在提的意見是說意願上我們現在最重要的是客觀條件上到底能不能做所以嘛你2030年前如果說你們這麼打爆破說不會缺電的話那當然研議就不是問題所以你們當然就不會提出所謂的研議申請的計畫嗎"},{"start":4173.981,"end":4189.467,"text":"根委員報告現在這個狀況是法到底修完是什麼樣的狀況法修完就是把你的年限把它撤除讓你們有更彈性的空間開店自己的安全的評估的狀況是如何這個東西都要有一些根據"},{"start":4190.347,"end":4193.47,"text":"好,來沒問題曾董事長我等下來告訴你我們台電的安全狀況是怎麼樣我想很清楚的大家目前為止鎖定在李遠哲的發言跟童子賢的一個發言那當然郭智輝部長也會是我想請次長你也來解讀一下我想童子賢應該是沒有被委員請吃飯所以他目前為止還是停留在他認為核能還是一個解方"},{"start":4214.029,"end":4237.659,"text":"國部長說只要修法通過核二、核三研議二、三十年不是問題,核電不是迂載的建立,但也是後備。吃了一頓飯之後他馬上說也沒有考慮過這個備載的部分。結果最近他又接受這個訪問,他又改口說任何的電我們都需要。次長你跟他比較接近,你可不可以了解我哪一個才是真正經濟部長的一個說法?到底目前你們的態度是怎麼樣?到底是廢核還是續核?能源到底誰說了算?"},{"start":4242.314,"end":4247.021,"text":"針對那個民間的人士我們是不去做評論。但是針對我們部長意思是說我們會在多元的電力的供應下我們已經做好妥善的電力供應的一個規劃準備。"},{"start":4258.636,"end":4270.619,"text":"你們這個有講跟沒有講一樣我們現在還是聽不懂到底金字部到底要幹嘛到目前為止也沒人知道他到底每一天只要是一頓飯局或出國一次回來之後每個話都不一致我現在只問個非常客觀的一個問題喔核一場廚藝從申請到這個解除大概是四年的時間核二呢大家念知在知已經進入廚藝狀況但是各位你看到沒有"},{"start":4280.401,"end":4280.661,"text":"案案案案"},{"start":4310.721,"end":4313.783,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4329.741,"end":4344.973,"text":"那個跟委員報告啊就像所有就包括您提到言議一樣他都有安全申請所以我們有很多行政程序的審查還有安全的審查環評的審查這個都不是我們事業單位能夠那誰應該負責你認為台電你認為應該是誰來來負責會比較來做一個更主導性的一個規劃"},{"start":4350.538,"end":4356.32,"text":"我還是要說一下就是我們現在這一些相關的議題就是有這些審查像環境的影響評估我們也不只是這些廚藝的問題審查很久我有一大堆案子都是所以我就告訴你嘛你一方面宣稱要非核家園是不可不放棄的目標可是真的何店長要廚藝的時候我真的覺得是拖拖拉拉你看"},{"start":4371.924,"end":4379.971,"text":"合約要六、七年欸那你們現在早就應該合好合二合三的研議計畫了難道是這樣子嗎?委員我們講一下你說你提到了合二合二的狀況是這個樣子它環評通過現在只是在修正邊界但真正要能夠進到廚藝是甘廚要能夠實施那甘廚的這一件事情我們最近已經跟新北市談出一個結果來我們希望趕快送審也能夠讓合二的廚藝順利進行"},{"start":4401.428,"end":4404.209,"text":"合一的廚藝干除了工作能夠順利進行,這個審查過程就超過10年了。我跟委員報告,它就停機了,然後接下來我們就會進入廚藝狀態,只要環評跟核安的審查通過,我們就進入廚藝狀態。"},{"start":4426.519,"end":4447.496,"text":"是,就從我剛剛那個部分嘛,2018年到現在為止都還是屬於一個問號,所以到底什麼時間點,我們目前都還是不知道。那我們現在請問一下啊,這個連市長,非核家園的推動上一次我們問了一下之後,我們說第六次的這個非核家園小組最後一次開會是在2021年喔。"},{"start":4448.817,"end":4460.746,"text":"三年之前的時候本來就應該討論有關於中期儲存的這個地方喔你們講東講西然後呢我上次問了我們陳東陽主委他說第七次的會議對不對主委很坦白說2023年之後就沒有再開會囉然後呢你希望趕快開第七次的會議而且呢討論第一階和廢料儲放的問題但是呢被這個小組給打回票不開就是不開我想請問台電"},{"start":4475.096,"end":4494.808,"text":"《終其戰處存償的地理條件》這個所謂選址的原則到底我們是不是還在等非核家園推動小組來拍板到底什麼時候來可以來討論這個問題我現在今天從頭到尾直問他你們都告訴我安全很重要我也知道安全很重要可是很多的進程就是還在卡在那個地方你看第四次會議我們講個最現實的終其戰處存償的問題什麼時候可以解決"},{"start":4499.591,"end":4505.497,"text":"我要跟委員報告那個我先解釋一下什麼是中期暫處啦你不用解釋你只要告訴我第七次會議大家都要召開2023年開完之後再沒有召開我上次已經提醒過了你們還是沒有在做這麼很積極的處理所以我只說什麼時候開這個會議而且次長也還是一個不著急人"},{"start":4518.569,"end":4538.496,"text":"這個不是非核價小組開會就可以決定因為重點是這樣它會回到跟現在第一階核廢料處理的問題一樣它有地方公投等等相關的問題所以經濟部今天在報告裡面有特別提到就是說如果核電的使用它要有始有終如果頭開了你尾巴要能夠解決同時要能夠一起來解決"},{"start":4539.116,"end":4539.436,"text":"這才有辦法讓我們真正成為這個永續運用。"},{"start":4564.002,"end":4564.342,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":4582.23,"end":4582.57,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4601.971,"end":4602.031,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":4619.946,"end":4624.568,"text":"那你認不認可這個價值嗎?我告訴你認不認可這個價值,誠如你剛剛所提到的,其實這個法通過,包括核安,包括台電,我們還是要經過一連串的安全檢視,這個安全檢視可能要花費3年到7年到10年,對不對?這都還是需要同島一命啊,我只說這個法,研議的法通過,只是提供你一個更彈性的空間,反而讓你有一個解套的一個部分。"},{"start":4648.396,"end":4648.416,"text":"案。"},{"start":4665.455,"end":4684.425,"text":"那個委員我這樣說齁您現在就一直講說這是你的事啦但是我要修正法修完就是你的事情就我覺得這個法的修正就已經有一個價值意向在了我怎麼可能是這樣切割我真的是完全不了解我沒有跟你切割我們在那個法裡面其實是切法核安包括經濟包括台電"},{"start":4687.286,"end":4693.85,"text":"我們等下在法社好好來做修正一下。董事長,我不覺得這是一個,我完全不認為這是一個切割。這只是你們在承諾我剛所提到的。每次問到這個問題,經濟部沒有辦法回應,就告訴我國發。國發告訴幕僚單位說這是核安問題。核安會又告訴我說他們只是一個安全的問題。所以我們只是透過這樣的一個討論,請告訴我們。整體的規劃我完全了解。"},{"start":4714.06,"end":4714.08,"text":"案。"},{"start":4752.602,"end":4755.974,"text":"謝主席,呃,有請陳主委跟經濟部連次長"},{"start":4761.796,"end":4781.56,"text":"林委員早我想首先我先要向柯之恩召委喊話一下核能安全、核廢處理跟社會共識這三大要件都不可偏廢我想在這三大要件之前還沒有完備之前我們沒有任何透過修法要求繼續使用核電的正當性所以我堅決反對外行的立法來干涉專業的核能安全的審查"},{"start":4786.181,"end":4806.892,"text":"所以我呼籲科智恩、昭緯要珍惜人民賦予的權利今天不應該進入法條的審查那如果這項法條那麼具有公義性那大家搶後提而來不及為什麼會淪落到今天這種地步就連國民黨的教文的昭緯跟國民黨的教文委員都不願意提案只有幾個從國會擴權惡法一路惡搞台灣到今天的戰鬥欄有提"},{"start":4811.394,"end":4811.414,"text":"案 。"},{"start":4829.341,"end":4845.628,"text":"舉辦反對核電研議拒絕草率修法的晚會那表達拒絕核管法草率修法的訴求我想今天本席要針對這一連串這個修法的這個提案版本來做一些批判首先我想"},{"start":4846.708,"end":4860.379,"text":"請教核安會主委核安會作為把關這個國內核能電廠安全監督的機關除了確保運轉當下的安全性當然我們更不能忽略就是未來的安全性那我國核電廠從1980年代前後商轉至今"},{"start":4864.162,"end":4883.688,"text":"三座核電廠各機組都有40年左右的歷史。依照核管法第六條的規定本來就應該在運轉期限屆期前重新進行安全的評估,否則就依法要停止運轉,來著手所謂的除役的作業。"},{"start":4884.508,"end":4904.563,"text":"那核管法制定當初就有這一層40年的限制的安全考量以及在運轉有效借期前5年到15年的換照申請的法定期間所以請教主委這些是否是為了核能發電的未來安全性的考量而定的"},{"start":4905.444,"end":4908.111,"text":"面對核能這麼一個謹慎掌控風險的能源,主委你是不是同意這些年限的限制是合理的?"},{"start":4915.71,"end":4941.484,"text":"完全合理五年到前十五年美國是前五年到前二十年我們其實是比照國際的經驗其實在過去馬政府執政時期的2009年台電就已經提出核一廠一號機及二號機的研議申請只是他截至2016年的二月他提出到"},{"start":4943.945,"end":4960.968,"text":"例經近7年,台電公司能有7項議題沒有提出相關評估或改善結果的答覆說明。」所以從這個歷史前提我們可以看得出來核電研議的審查需要時間就如同過去主委你也常常"},{"start":4961.849,"end":4973.914,"text":"回覆委員的這個問題是相當複雜以至於多年過去核電廠研議的審查都沒有下文最後的結果就是台電撤回研議的申請那再來同樣是一份歷史的回顧2011年馬前總統召開能源政策記者會的時候他曾經宣布"},{"start":4984.179,"end":4988.383,"text":"核一、核二、核三將不再研議並強調以積極務實跟負責的態度逐步邁向非核家園現在各個國民黨紛紛提出核電要研議的修法完完全全就是在穿越時空打臉"},{"start":5001.495,"end":5010.457,"text":"馬前總統非核家園不但是環境基本法的明文目標也是這幾任的總統通通有宣示過的內容況且核電的研議有安全性的問題我們必須要先停機檢修才符合所謂繼續運轉的能量"},{"start":5024.722,"end":5042.524,"text":"那可是檢修需要耗費好幾年的時間跟龐大的預算那綜合前面所說的提出申請審核需要時間停機檢修需要時間更新機組也需要時間那所以核三機組的停機在即的現在我們要求"},{"start":5043.649,"end":5068.383,"text":"不停止運轉而延逸等於是擔著核電廠超時服役的更高風險所以我們根本沒有這樣的本錢去承受所以本席在前一次核安會的質詢中我就提出質疑說延逸到底需要多少的成本那根本沒有辦法平衡這個永和人士口中所謂的便宜電價這次我們簡單就問一下主委跟次長好了"},{"start":5068.723,"end":5073.733,"text":"最近一次即將停機的這個核三廠一號機檢修時間需要多少時間還有在現行條件下如果重啟這個營運那維修成本又需要多少簡單回答"},{"start":5084.761,"end":5108.379,"text":"就目前來講最快最快要5年了那有可能是因為剛才講的因為你可能如果你要停了之後要再運轉它有很多很多複雜的問題像剛才包括燃料這些低階燃料要怎麼去處理等等還有一些機構安全的問題這些如果又再平復完之後我想最快是5年最長搞不好要拖到10年以上對這是這是時間嘛那萬維整個的成本呢需要花的經費的成本呢"},{"start":5113.843,"end":5113.923,"text":"判決委員"},{"start":5134.835,"end":5154.23,"text":"最嚴格的一個環境的一個設置條件我不能把這個就講說它一定是存在那這樣對於我的能源供應是一個存在一個大的漏洞所以我們一定是要把說那我非核我執行下去那我整個能源我要怎麼再去接上來那這樣對於整個國家在能源供應上才是一個最好的一個"},{"start":5155.491,"end":5163.613,"text":"所以在次長您的說法之下就是說核電真的經濟嗎?真的穩定嗎?那我想這是大大的懷疑那另外我想預期搶著討論核電再運轉那是不是來討論核廢處置廠比較務實一點我們請教主委跟次長全世界有哪個國家在核電廠營運三四十年之後還沒有興建核廢竿組設施的"},{"start":5185.902,"end":5211.618,"text":"我的理解是沒有沒有國家沒有國家只有台灣只有台灣就只有台灣所以在安全把關的考量下必須要先討論核廢料的處理嘛所以在座請教主委跟次長就使用核電的前提是不是得先安全的處理核廢料是嗎好那所以最後啦我想核廢的事情沒辦法處理"},{"start":5212.919,"end":5213.179,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":5229.784,"end":5245.668,"text":"所以昨天公民集結學者與各界的代表一個一個宣講表達拒絕核電的訴求核電再運轉這絕對真的不是一條可行的道路所以拜託我們主委跟次長好好的把關 謝謝接下來我們請葛如君委員"},{"start":5264.993,"end":5271.358,"text":"謝謝主席,有請河岸會主委、經濟部次長、國發會檢任記政以及台電董事長備詢。"},{"start":5281.014,"end":5306.868,"text":"今天我們國民黨召委排審核子反應器設施管制法可以說是用心良苦希望所有的人在座的各位官員都能夠體會首先請教主委我們看今天核安會的報告似乎是採取競表尊重並不反對的態度主委我們是不是可以就此定謀競表尊重並不反對就是核安會對於核電廠研議的立場是嗎"},{"start":5310.233,"end":5337.748,"text":"報告裡面只有競表尊重所以現在反對嗎?就是尊重好沒有關係現在還是這個在反對不反對之間嘛我們之前已經提過了薛丁格的狀態沒有關係我們今天如果7月27號停機了我們的電力減少了如果我們真的再發生大跳電"},{"start":5339.11,"end":5344.677,"text":"在座的四位有沒有人要負責下台啊?有沒有人願意負責下台?市長,我是說誰該負誰的責任就應該誰該負嗎?誰該負?總不可能沒有人該負責任吧?"},{"start":5361.882,"end":5377.051,"text":"沒有關係我已經預期到你們的反應了董事長您可以請回了您其實有可能是要負責任但既然你沒有要負責任你就先回去吧謝謝核安會昨天上午10點以前10點前以電子郵件送了今天的報告"},{"start":5377.791,"end":5398.473,"text":"下午點又送了一份修正報告,不比對還好,一比對才發現越寫越倒退,把肯定委員考量國內能源需求以及若國家能源政策確定核電研議等等這一類立場比較傾向研議的句子都刪除就算了。"},{"start":5399.534,"end":5403.482,"text":"最後還把研議需要的時程從國際經驗2到3年修正成依我國核電廠基礎狀況估計需要3到5年"},{"start":5411.087,"end":5432.098,"text":"甚至到剛剛說法又變了,市長你剛剛是不是又說改成5到10年啊?我們這時間可以這樣子亂跳的嗎?報告委員剛才講的是說你檢查要5年但是如果你要再重置的話有一些新建期或有一些要處理的問題等到弄好之後有可能會到10年我聽你解釋啦"},{"start":5433.53,"end":5448.006,"text":"你們就是在算賴清德總統任期結束的時候啦!他可能還想要續任嘛!算一算我八年到時候萬一要開機怎麼辦?是這樣嗎?是用這種數學在算的嗎?我們這種科學的事情可以用這樣的數學在算嗎?所以我想我們來看一些事實好不好?看一些科學好不好?"},{"start":5455.56,"end":5468.231,"text":"在近年的國際局勢的影響之下我們鄰近的日本、韓國都加入了重啟核電的行列日本九州電力公司川內核電廠一號機7月3號借滿40年運轉期直接從7月4號正式展開研議日本高濱核電廠19個小時以前"},{"start":5479.5,"end":5506.741,"text":"公告了從40年的年限延長到加20年直接研議請問為什麼日本可以做我們不能做可不可以回答有沒有研究他們怎麼做到的為什麼他們不用花2到10年來檢查為什麼他們不用可不可以說明我們用的核電不一樣嗎那個報告委員這個案子我們會來研究一下但是我跟委員報告"},{"start":5508.294,"end":5529.778,"text":"我們原來的執照是給定40年,依照法定的程序,停機之後,如果要研議,我們必須做安全檢查,然後才可以...那為什麼他們不用檢查?他們罔顧人民性命嗎?這個部分我要了解一下。好,沒有關係。那你今天才開始了解,什麼時候了解完?今天之前都不用了解嗎?"},{"start":5534.994,"end":5540.979,"text":"我沒有注意到這個新聞沒有注意到好謝謝這是我們協作的部分那我再給你一個新聞老實說你們作為核安會沒有注意這些新聞沒有關係這個我們就是論事"},{"start":5554.046,"end":5569.42,"text":"義大利7月1號也向歐盟提交新版的國家能源與氣候計劃案,預估2050年全國發電量至少11%來自核能,象徵義大利歷經34年的非核政策以後正式重啟核能發電。那這個新聞有沒有注意到?有嗎?那為什麼人家可以就這樣走了?"},{"start":5577.586,"end":5606.304,"text":"為什麼我們都可以逆向而行?台灣的核電跟別人的核電都不一樣嗎?你說我們的環境不同?我們跟日本的環境很像啊!我們今天在這裡其實就是希望我們不要只是喊說我們在AI世界的中心但是我們卻有可能成為缺電的中心這完全兜不起來啊科技巨頭都非常關心電力的穩定但是我們看到的是什麼?"},{"start":5607.225,"end":5628.554,"text":"我們看到的是什麼?各種踢皮球的狀態然後呢我們的賴總統左擁右抱左擁右抱一邊是能源政策九彎十八拐修正在修正的郭部長另外一邊總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會從反核轉向挺核的童子賢副召集人"},{"start":5629.608,"end":5644.353,"text":"大家一搭一唱,忙著唱一部民進黨與非核家園有緣無分的大戲。一直說啊,不是不愛啊,只是迫於無奈啊。520到現在兩手策略讓民眾看了一頭霧水。現在,我們在討論核電廠研議的時候,還是說得不清不楚,說國外的狀況沒有研究。"},{"start":5651.345,"end":5676.573,"text":"今天我們五個草案其實方向都是一致的我們溫情喊話聲聲吹行政院充耳不聞院長甚至抱著神主牌說這不是神主牌說是心理的理念到現在還是沒有任何行政院的草案提出甚至沒有建議版的文字想請問安會主委您支持今天我們修法草案的方向嗎"},{"start":5678.889,"end":5693.134,"text":"我覺得這個行政院長已經說明就是我們政府不會主動提出修法但是您敬表尊重嘛對不對這四個字對吧經濟部次長您支持今天修法草案的方向嗎還是敬表尊重"},{"start":5697.52,"end":5711.469,"text":"那您競表尊重算是有修改立場了啦,也是不錯啦,算至少有尊重。但我看你們郭部長還不只尊重,態度還有很多鬆動。那請問國發會的政檢記,您支持我們今天修法草案的方向嗎?所以我們的省主牌換名字啦,競表尊重變成新的省主牌啦。那我們的非核家園省主牌算破除了嗎?"},{"start":5725.069,"end":5748.599,"text":"算破除了嗎?沒關係大家就是問到重點的時候就會停住希望我們的電力不要這樣啦那我想這個真的是很重要的問題我們回顧過去民國91年核子反應設施的管制法的立法討論當時負責說明的法案並不是經建會而是核安會前身的原能會"},{"start":5750.159,"end":5757.842,"text":"現在有很多人又突然講說相關的這個是國發會的責任踢皮球踢來踢去踢到國發會的門口了國發會我們就檢記出來來反映"},{"start":5766.425,"end":5779.752,"text":"我們體育也能踢球、文化也能踢球我們現在經濟的核心、電力也在踢球到底有什麼東西是不是踢球的啦那我想這個真的是會不會到最後啊又踢了一顆球直接幫你們瞄準下一個目標啦到最後我們如果假設草案通過我看你們這個球又要踢到什麼氣候變遷委員會啊是不是到最後會不會又踢到氣候變遷委員會會不會"},{"start":5796.052,"end":5818.87,"text":"我看我今天就是神預言了啦如果今天大家都沒有什麼立場講來講去就是敬表尊重我是真的就覺得這樣真的是不夠負責任那我想請教那剛剛已經有非常多人在詢問就是說這些準備到底你們到底有沒有做計算到底要多少費用多少時間再給你們一個機會有沒有估算過"},{"start":5830.04,"end":5843.888,"text":"這個檢查安全檢查必須是個別機組的狀態如果有零件要更換那麼還需要更多餘的時間所以它有一定的不確定性那經費呢?有沒有範圍?經費可能要台電來說明"},{"start":5845.609,"end":5862.878,"text":"因為這個禁慰就是像剛才朱薇講的要逐一下去檢視你才可以知道禁慰要怎麼去編列我真的是看起來我們就是教文我舉個例子有點像小孩子明天就要上大學了不知道他要念幾年也不知道他要多少學費這真的是我們在面對電力的做法嗎我們日本近年為了強化AI和晶片產業鏈的發展非常積極和國際企業合作"},{"start":5870.181,"end":5884.132,"text":"場商為了瞭解各國的環境適不適合其實也會到當地參訪電廠就本席瞭解近期也有台灣重點廠商到日本參訪核電廠請問經濟部和國發會日本是透過這樣的方式讓國際企業瞭解電力工藝的穩定性那我們呢我們拿什麼來承諾穩定供電我們有去參訪我們有去瞭解嗎剛剛還有說沒有聽過這些消息的"},{"start":5895.88,"end":5912.833,"text":"難道我們要用這種綠能概念股的股價成長趨勢來承諾穩定供電嗎?是這樣嗎?就是說我們這個綠能技術一片安詳股價一片看好是這樣嗎?我們用這個來承諾國際大廠我們有電嗎?我們如果有重大投資我們一定是經過規劃一定是穩定供電的"},{"start":5921.087,"end":5925.29,"text":"那剛剛說如果跳電如果供電不穩定誰要下台?市長要下台嗎?有人要負責嗎?我想這個同時前董事長最近又說了啦這現在的這個我們的跨界良心說非核家園政策正在卡住台灣削弱我們晶片產業的競爭力這也是我們許多關心能源議題人民的擔憂啦今天國民黨主動出來"},{"start":5951.536,"end":5978.623,"text":"主動出來勒我們主動出來啦要來破除什麼我們今天多一張啦我覺得我們不是煞車皮國民黨不是煞車皮阿我們是雷神之鎚阿好不好我們要來破除這個非核家園的審主牌好不好我們開大門走大路審法案下台階都搭好了執政黨不要繼續陷我們賴總統於不義"},{"start":5981.284,"end":5983.407,"text":"把我們的賴總統塑造成左擁右抱、腳踏多條船的復興漢。我剛剛忘記按出我的雷神之槌。雷神之槌啊!我還畫了閃電。"},{"start":5993.7,"end":6022.692,"text":"把我們的賴總統弄成這樣,真的是對的嗎?同時我要再強調,不好意思,這個稍微再給我30秒,10秒就可以了。我說,民進黨可以用卓院長近來最喜歡說的時空背景不同來回應嗎?當然不行。國會改革法案,我們提出過去相同的內容,民進黨反對的理由,時空背景不同。我們邀請來做國情報告,也是過去民進黨的主張,民進黨反對的理由也是什麼?時空背景不同。"},{"start":6023.252,"end":6039.997,"text":"但是現在面對核電廠演繹各國都在擁抱核能明顯就是時空背景不同現在你們突然又不講啦雙重標準現在突然又時空背景相同了嗎?難怪童子前形容台灣對碳排的自我感覺過於良好是集體處在夢遊的狀態"},{"start":6041.937,"end":6057.161,"text":"各位官員不要再繼續裝睡下去剛剛我問很多問題你們都停在那邊也許真的是在夢遊啦希望不是希望我們稍後的逐條審查當中各位可以清醒過來我們理性務實的一起討論法案謝謝好謝謝各位我們謝謝葛如君委員謝謝好接下來我們請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":6075.877,"end":6083.97,"text":"謝謝主席,請何恩威、陳竺偉、經濟部連次長以及國發會的正檢記。好,我們就三個單位的代表,謝謝。"},{"start":6087.495,"end":6107.894,"text":"陳委員好早安今天我們要討論核子反應器的設施管制法第六條修正草案其實這個事情這個試射國家非核安全發展的方向那國化會這邊是今天是指派產業處的政檢記本席其實要表達一下質疑國化會好像不太重視我們非核家園發展的方向"},{"start":6108.855,"end":6132.33,"text":"在我們環境基本法第23條規定政府應定定計劃逐步達成非核家園的目標並且應該加強核能安全的管制輻射防射輻射的防護以及放射性物料管理環境的輻射政策確保民眾避免輻射危害那這邊我想請教國防局的鄭檢記目前非核家園的目標是不是都是一致的有沒有變動"},{"start":6137.286,"end":6142.626,"text":"跟委員報告非核家園的目標是這個環境基本法的這一個"},{"start":6144.578,"end":6171.134,"text":"非核家園是環境基本法的終極目標那這個國內的能源政策目前也是以這個方向來處理所以是一致的是沒有變動的但是呢跳電跟停電是不是等於缺電本席認為說跳電跟停電是不等於缺電的會跳電跟會停電其實跟電力供應的調度還有管制的缺失是有密切的關係那我這邊想請教次長"},{"start":6173.395,"end":6178.516,"text":"條電停電跟缺電有什麼差別?你這邊是不是說明一下?所以很明顯的就是整個電力供應的調度跟管制的缺失就像本席剛剛所說的市長"},{"start":6200.022,"end":6227.98,"text":"一年多前,一零一年的台灣大學社科院的風險社會與政策研究中心有一份台灣缺電風險分析報告裡面寫說政府不缺電的方案裡面有五個風險第一個就是電力調度的管理困難度提升第二個是新式電網的發展太慢第三是增生能源多元化進度落後還有電力需求評估不明確以及地緣政治風險那我這邊想請教次長,如果我們只用核電"},{"start":6228.88,"end":6246.165,"text":"就能解決以上這些問題嗎?是沒辦法我剛才有講如果核電剛才要講說最快你也要是五年啟動那如果說在整個基礎再去檢修或是有什麼問題搞不好要超過五年那這五年其實對於整個在電的補充是沒有幫助的所以我們不能用這樣條件來規劃我未來整個"},{"start":6248.746,"end":6249.066,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":6270.649,"end":6293.812,"text":"因為我們無法完善核廢料的最終處置與核電廠再運轉的核電廠這個安全當我們連核廢料都沒有辦法有效處置的時候其實我們要討論核電廠再運轉根本是沒有實質意義的我的鄉親都很焦慮地問我說為什麼會有委員要提案要修法核廢料我們根本無法處置無法處理那這些提案的委員有沒有保證他們能夠"},{"start":6295.493,"end":6316.478,"text":"做這些核廢料的最終處置其實是沒有我們沒有辦法處理到我們核廢料的這些問題那這邊今天我們要討論的這個修正草案現行的第六條有規定說期滿需繼續運轉者經營者需執照有效期借滿前向主管機關申請換發執照那我想請教次長台電這邊有沒有規劃核電廠要申請換發執照或是繼續運轉"},{"start":6321.559,"end":6347.127,"text":"沒有沒有如果台電沒有規劃要目前的法令規定是不允許的也沒有規劃嗎所以台電沒有規劃要申請換照繼續運轉那我們今天為什麼要審查這個草案的必要性你們沒有要提出這樣的需求所以根本沒有這個法案修正的這個必要性今天討論的這個修正法案原文有規定說核子反應器設施運轉期"},{"start":6348.907,"end":6365.938,"text":"執照最長其間最長是40年齊滿需運轉者、經營者需於主管機關規定之期限內申請換發執照,未依規定換發執照者不得繼續運轉。當營運執照到期後,已經到期了,能不能換發執照?目前的法令是不允許當初立法的時候是如何考量?時空背景有沒有改變?"},{"start":6377.688,"end":6391.868,"text":"是要在前5年到前15年主要是因為安檢的需求那這個安檢的需求其實我們是跟隨美國的相關的經驗所以是跟全世界是同步的"},{"start":6392.699,"end":6417.657,"text":"所以主委您剛剛也回答了其實所有的規範相關的規範都是為了安全考量安全是最重要的民眾就真的非常的擔心我這邊要請教主委如果條文真的強行通過沒有經過換發執照審查的這個程序真的可以確認核子反應設施是安全無虞的嗎我們要經過怎樣的程序才能確定核子反應設施是安全的這個部分"},{"start":6420.882,"end":6449.492,"text":"台電必須事先就他想要研議的機組做健康檢查然後提出一個報告那這個報告我剛才提到他就是一個老化分析整體性的老化評估老化安全分析實現老化分析這個運轉機組的相關的條件那這個報告檢視完如果他有零件或者是有某些設備需要更換他必須去做更換更新然後把所有的報告送到核安會來"},{"start":6450.552,"end":6468.088,"text":"合安會是由國外、國內跟我們會內的專家就各個領域專業領域去做審查那這個時程還要看這個我們這個所有報告的完整性那麼看看是不是有什麼問題他們可以需要再改進的"},{"start":6468.528,"end":6495.01,"text":"所以時程有一定的不確定性所以時程是絕對不能倉促的因為每一個關卡都是攸關著安全核能的安全核電廠的運轉執照換發是攸關整個核能安全及公共利益的重要事項那民眾也希望知道說如果像國民黨這樣級的委員這樣子的修法這樣子的提案平行是"},{"start":6495.931,"end":6506.674,"text":"他們很質疑說怎麼可以立法院擴權擴成這樣只要是立法委員想做的修法就可以都可以不用顧慮安全不用顧慮程序不用顧慮是不是專業這個民眾真的覺得非常的他們會覺得說怎麼可以讓民眾這麼擔憂那我現在要請教主委已經借期限才申請換發執照那在整個營運跟監管會遇到什麼風險"},{"start":6522.716,"end":6543.271,"text":"這個全世界這個案例非常非常的少那麼以核二來講我們已經停機將近兩年那他還要做乾除最快最快還要再三年所以假設研議的法案通過他要重啟最快也要五六年以後一台車"},{"start":6544.372,"end":6544.732,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":6559.429,"end":6575.06,"text":"那其實我們台灣在產業這個世界的產業供應鏈上是一個非常重要的角色當然民眾企業都需要穩定的供電所以這邊本席要要求說我們在發展多元力能跟智慧電網的同時呢經濟部跟台電一定要強化我們電力系統這個供應的這個韌性那最後這邊本席要提醒大家"},{"start":6581.764,"end":6589.848,"text":"其實台灣的產業努力於改善能源密集度這幾年下來其實是有成效的我們集成下來的用電量遠遠大於興建一座兩座這個核電廠的裝置的容量如果我們體認到這個事實就會發現說我們台灣為了爭論核電已經浪費太多的社會資源造成更多的社會紛爭跟民眾的焦慮所以本席認為說與其爭論台灣應不應該採用核能"},{"start":6608.237,"end":6616.623,"text":"案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條"},{"start":6636.752,"end":6641.834,"text":"好,謝謝。各位請回座。那接下來我們請郭育晴委員。謝謝主席。有請我們的主委還有次長。好,主委跟經濟部次長,謝謝。"},{"start":6657.641,"end":6682.394,"text":"國務委員早早安兩位早安我想今天其實在這邊發言其實我真的不建議今天進入法條的審查就像剛剛其實我們諸多的委員在提到沒有任何的社會共識在昨天其實還有很多的專家學者他們紛紛去講就算今天藍白他們用人數的多數通過了這些就是我知道不行法規說不行我要把它改到行"},{"start":6683.374,"end":6693.878,"text":"這像巨嬰欸 這像耍賴欸所以其實沒有取得任何的社會共識之前我覺得核能的安全安全兩個字不是只有我們這一代我們還有下一代這個是最重要的一個課題"},{"start":6697.935,"end":6718.94,"text":"好,那我想呢今天很多人可能會在講說什麼能源錯誤啦然後跳電啦然後的停電啦我想問一下兩位尤其是我們的這個主委安全很重要但是很多人在講說現在是不是真的有所謂的跳電停電就是缺電等於缺電嗎跳電停電等於缺電嗎這個部分是不是請你們來說做一個說明"},{"start":6727.496,"end":6741.845,"text":"我說明一下,跳電停電剛才講不是缺電因為它現在都是單獨的一個設施或一棟大樓去停這有可能是本身的一個設施或是外面有一些設備的那如果是缺電的話應該是這一整個區域它才會一整個去停電"},{"start":6748.509,"end":6766.541,"text":"所以跳電停電不等於台灣缺電這個是真的拜託大家一定要先有的一個觀念所以其實我在這邊就先糾正這個觀念然後再來我們談到所謂的能源政策我覺得一定要更理性再生能源的佔比其實從2023年相對的來講相較於2016年我們成長了將近快要8倍"},{"start":6773.405,"end":6776.73,"text":"那今年其實我們的占比一定會超過10%到了2025年會達到15%甚至到於2026年的10月我們將到達20%的一個目標所以其實我們的供電絕對會更加的穩定"},{"start":6788.746,"end":6806.408,"text":"當時﹖"},{"start":6809.329,"end":6815.912,"text":"他那時候要交接的時候只有備載我們的用電的備載容量只有1.6%對不對但是到現在我們經歷過了前面八年的努力我們現在都至少維持百分之十甚至以上所以會跳電會缺電就等會跳電會停電就等於缺電嗎我想這邊我打一個非常大的一個問號"},{"start":6837.382,"end":6866.249,"text":"再來我們的供電其實也真的更加的穩定了那我想全力發展再生的能源我們在用低碳燃氣作為橋接的一個能源這才是真正比較專業真正比較全面的一個能源政策而不是目光如豆用政治性的語言一直在架空台灣一直要我們說我們不行我們就用法律來把它改到行"},{"start":6867.189,"end":6890.11,"text":"這真的是叫無賴的行為對我來講好再來最重要的核電能不能夠再運轉核廢料放在哪裡這才是最基本的問題我想他們在修改法條的時候這個部分我不知道他們敢不敢講我們這個部分是不是來做一下解釋目前他們"},{"start":6890.831,"end":6906.715,"text":"核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等"},{"start":6921.162,"end":6936.913,"text":"幹事儲存目前才開始在起步我們核一核二廠其實都已經運轉40年所以有些燃料在爐心還沒辦法拿出來最終處置設施我們碰到極大的困難"},{"start":6938.054,"end":6960.123,"text":"主要是民意溝通、地方政府的態度、我們天然的地質、選址的困難等等。我在報告裡面都有提到相關的情況。即便在國際上永久設施還是極為困難的問題,即便美國目前也沒有。"},{"start":6961.872,"end":6982.499,"text":"好,所以目前其實還沒有達到全民的共識甚至我們的核廢料的問題還是基於最重要的還是安全上的一個問題連我們看到核一、核二尤其是我們的核二跟新北市政府最近才剛剛行政調解而已那這個問題沒有解決有可能再運轉嗎?如果核二這個桿處沒有解決沒辦法再運轉"},{"start":6990.834,"end":7003.007,"text":"這個就是我們的結論那很多人可能在講說為什麼剛剛我也聽到另外一位委員在講說日本可以為什麼我們不行所以日本發生了什麼事情"},{"start":7004.878,"end":7027.949,"text":"就是講我們那個審查安全為什麼我們要3到5年甚至要5年到10年這是不是只有就安全這兩個字是不是就是安全的問題安全至關重要所以剛剛他們在講說日本可以啊為什麼日本可以不用為什麼我們台灣要所以日本有沒有輔導的問題問一下"},{"start":7032.128,"end":7051.918,"text":"安全是所有的最終最終最主要的元件然後那麼我們要核安會就是要確保所有就是安全可以確保那麼才會有後續的一些問題那當然核廢料也是必要處理的事情那剛才我提到是廢料就相關的難度"},{"start":7053.32,"end":7076.479,"text":"所以就算核電廠要重新再運轉我們也必須要在期限之內申請這是本來就應該的但是我們看到了有很多人的版本他其實就把這個所謂的不行要改到行把申請期限安全所設定的申請期限這些文字全數刪除"},{"start":7078.2,"end":7106.527,"text":"甚至還有人的版本說只要主管機關認定他的安全無虞的時候就可以相對來講就可以無照運轉啦就是這個意思這樣對嗎這個核安會沒辦法接受啦齁那麼所有東西還是要以安全為考量沒有經過安檢就沒有辦法確保沒辦法再營運我們會裡面也沒有人敢承擔沒有安檢就可以合法執照"},{"start":7107.427,"end":7127.798,"text":"所以核安會是真的把關我們的核安最重要的一個部門應該這麼講不是只有你們不能接受光是我們一般的民眾我們也沒辦法接受是這樣子在玩這種所謂的文字上的一個遊戲所以我真的誠懇的建議"},{"start":7129.259,"end":7149.014,"text":"為什麼我們要有所謂的一定要在申請期限當中是基於安全兩個字如果只是因人設施我先設建我再劃吧我再劃吧那簡直就是罔顧核能的安全所以你說他要再運轉第一我們沒有缺電的問題"},{"start":7150.015,"end":7169.17,"text":"第二、我們的再生能源現在的效率其實真的比過去要多上非常多所以這才是我們的主軸所以核能最重要的是安全兩個字沒有安全為前提今天如果要進入所謂的法條上的審查本席在這裡堅決反對謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":7177.865,"end":7179.126,"text":"竹偉請教你今天是做公務車來立法院的嗎?"},{"start":7204.81,"end":7226.286,"text":"那你知道我們公務車是有一個汰換年限的嗎?根據足跡總署的規定,公務車使用滿15年或行駛里程數超過25萬公里就可以辦理汰換。主要也是考量到安全性這件事情。那我們現在大家有辦法想像嗎?一台車零40年的老車,就像我們的河山場,"},{"start":7227.327,"end":7249.188,"text":"他的舊時的製造規格沒有經過嚴謹的這個耐撞測試就有可能會造成我們的一些使用上面行車上面的風險大家敢讓這樣大家敢在沒有確認安全無疑的狀況之下沒有嚴謹的安全檢查之下大家敢開這台車上路嗎我想這大家應該是非常清楚大家不會把自己的生命拿來當開玩笑"},{"start":7249.969,"end":7272.775,"text":"所以今天在討論核二核三的這些要不要解套的法案之前我們必須非常清楚的確認有沒有核能安全有沒有符合安全性這必須做一個務實的討論所以呢我們可以看到就是說從鈾礦開採到核電廚藝其實都有核廢料最久持續一萬年那在台灣我們會要處理的就是低階核廢料也就是說這些被污染的衣服啊工具啊建築體"},{"start":7274.099,"end":7297.894,"text":"那再來就是高階的核廢料燃料棒所以呢我想我們就先來處理這兩個部分喔因為這是在台灣我們必須面對的問題喔那在高階核廢料呢現在呢據我得到的資料在失事儲存的狀況核一、核二現在是滿存的那核三呢空間有限那爐心呢核一還有724宿核二還有1248宿"},{"start":7301.937,"end":7324.716,"text":"我想問主委喔,全世界哪一個國家核電廠已經用了40年,燃料棒還無法處理,還無法退出的?有嗎?全世界現在沒有國家是這個樣子啦。完全沒有對不對?大概只有台灣。只有台灣嘛,好。那再來為什麼呢?為什麼我們會造成這樣子的問題呢?主委可以幫我們做個說明嗎?為什麼一直還在燃料棒裡面沒有辦法退出來勒?"},{"start":7325.925,"end":7347.654,"text":"我想地方政府的態度啦,那麼有一些民意的難度嘛。民意的抗爭嘛,對不對?大家都不希望核的廢料放在自己家旁邊嘛,大家都有安全的顧慮嘛,對不對?好,所以至少我得到的資料是核一要到年底才有可能啟用開工,對不對?那核二要到使用大概要至少五年,我這個資料是正確的嗎?"},{"start":7350.479,"end":7373.542,"text":"最快最快核二大概要在三年,那那個年底啟用核一可能要到明年,明年中。好,了解。好,那但是我們核三我所得到的資料是現在是沒有的,而且最終處置廠現在也是沒有著落的。那我想請教主委,全世界哪一個國家用了核電廠40年還沒有這些乾除設置?"},{"start":7376.129,"end":7397.745,"text":"沒有,就只有台灣吧。也還是只有台灣嘛,對不對?好,所以我們現在如果要去處理這個核廢料,我們如果要解套的話,我們就必須解決核廢料的問題嘛,對不對?所以啊,從你的安全性的專業,我們現在喔,如果沒有辦法處理核廢料,我們可以來討論再度啟用或研議這個事情嗎?"},{"start":7399.315,"end":7413.749,"text":"以核二廠來講是完全沒有辦法因為燃料在爐心沒辦法拿出來然後這個燃料池已經接近額滿所以它就是沒辦法燃出來我沒辦法放新的燃料下去"},{"start":7414.89,"end":7441.165,"text":"那核三廠其實有限大概在幾年的運轉的期間但是我們現在也還沒有乾除嘛對不對都沒有嘛所以我們現在基本上現在修了這個法能夠解套解決我們核廢料的問題嗎?最終處置廠的問題嗎?乾除必須興建我剛才在報告裡面有Underline乾除必須興建不管將來是要廚藝或研藝乾除都必須興建"},{"start":7442.557,"end":7469.349,"text":"對,但是我們現在的法其實也沒有去處理這個高階核廢料的選址嘛對不對我們現在是沒有的嘛所以我們根本沒有解決核廢料的處置問題嘛這個問題沒有辦法解決的話我們現在在做什麼任何的討論其實都是違反安全的原則再來就是低階的部分就是在被汙染的衣服跟工具建築體的這些低階的核廢料根據低放射性的廢棄物處置"},{"start":7471.03,"end":7488.909,"text":"設施管制法第六條條文修正草。經濟部其實曾經建議過兩個候選場址需要辦地方公投,當時是選在台東達仁與金門烏丘。我想要了解這兩個地方發生了什麼事情,為什麼我們到現在還是放在蘭嶼的暫時儲存場還有三座核電廠跟核驗所內呢?"},{"start":7492.629,"end":7508.722,"text":"根據這個條例必須要通過地方的公投,那兩個縣政府,臺東縣政府跟金門縣政府都是愛南同意,就是他沒有辦法辦理,那這個就是到現在沒辦法公投。"},{"start":7509.463,"end":7526.202,"text":"瞭解齁所以嘛就是無解嘛對不對就算是連第一階段我們都無解嘛就是無法處理啊那其實中研院其實在2022年11月有發布一個臺灣淨零科技研發政策建議書就有提到核電的主力最大主力就是放射性廢棄物的最終組織廠"},{"start":7528.224,"end":7547.444,"text":"所以這個地方其實還有非常大的一個挑戰我們必須要來解決那再來就是義軍核電廠的一個報告核三廠東側緊鄰恆春活動斷層西側外海也有逆沖斷層所以之前也有考慮到這些地震可能會造成的一些問題那我想要請教主委到底這個地方"},{"start":7548.385,"end":7558.724,"text":"假設我們都沒有做任何確認發生事故的話他會被影響到我們住在高雄地區的人民的一些可能空氣啦飲用水啊等等的問題可不可以請你就轉眼給我們一個說明"},{"start":7560.1,"end":7585.181,"text":"那個地震其實是有一些潛在的威脅那主要是看震源那如果震源是在接近這個比如三角斷層、橫沿斷層那這個部分我們會相對的比較憂心那麼河岸會對這個耐震有做了一些處置但是天然災害有不可預測性那麼我們必須謹慎為之"},{"start":7587.883,"end":7604.31,"text":"那我想因為其實這個聽起來就是說如果這個地震可能還是一個存在的隱憂嘛對不對那他如果不小心真的向外洩他其實對我們都要使用的農產品也好或食用水也好可能都會造成影響所以我想要講的一件事情就是說我們每一個人其實都生活在這塊土地上面"},{"start":7605.558,"end":7631.186,"text":"我們的小孩、我們未來的子子孫孫世世代代都會居住在台灣這個土地上面如果我們今天沒有辦法解決核廢料沒有辦法處理好安全這個問題我們就要進入修法來讓核二跟核三可以進入解套的話那其實我覺得我們對這個我們等於沒有在為安全跟人民的性命來做一個把關那國民黨口口聲聲說要這個為能源政策提出一個解方"},{"start":7631.986,"end":7656.431,"text":"但是這整個過程之中今天如果下午就要排定修法這是一個這麼爭議性的法案我們沒有經過任何的公聽會的討論那我想這個程序上面我覺得是有非常大的問題例如像我們過去國民黨從在國會擴權惡法到選罷法到現在我們都不做任何討論嗎?我們都沒有要傾聽任何的民意嗎?我們完全不顧人們的性命安全嗎?"},{"start":7658.55,"end":7683.742,"text":"我們到底有沒有把人民放在心中我們每一位立委的選票都是從人民的手上得來的我們每一個人都是帶著人民的寄託跟期待和使命來到了立法院我們不該做傷害人民的事情即便今天政黨立場不同人民的生命都不該成為政治鬥爭的犧牲品所以我要建請我們的總召委"},{"start":7685.783,"end":7696.185,"text":"在今天我們不要進入逐條審查讓我們好好的請聽民意來回應我們人民來好好的為我們人民的生命做個把關謝謝謝謝好謝謝那接下來我們請翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員羅廷維委員羅廷維委員羅廷維委員"},{"start":7717.004,"end":7721.767,"text":"陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員吳沛逸委員吳沛逸委員吳沛逸委員范雲委員"},{"start":7739.028,"end":7741.631,"text":"謝謝召委,有請我們陳主委還有次長跟那個董事長。好,我們請陳主委我們的連次長還有我們的曾董事長。"},{"start":7750.779,"end":7750.819,"text":"范議員范議員"},{"start":7775.398,"end":7784.288,"text":"當陳主委已經講了嘛,全世界沒有一個國家,像我們一樣用了核電廠40年,然後到現在都沒有乾式主存廠了,對不對?主委,那你可不可以簡單講一句話,為什麼乾式主存廠一直都拖延,沒有辦法依照進度,主要是為什麼?"},{"start":7796.145,"end":7819.901,"text":"那個過去主要是新北市政府跟台電新北市政府是誰的任內一直阻撓應該朱縣長吧朱縣長到侯市長朱市長到侯市長嘛那到現在都沒有辦法處理那中期的主存場我們有沒有解方"},{"start":7821.431,"end":7848.107,"text":"現在也沒有。現在沒解方,全世界有幾個國家有高階核廢料的中期解方,最終處置場?那個最終處置場,我知道大概只有芬蘭,現在才在試營運階段。那這是高階的就燃料棒,低階的核廢料,全世界有沒有一個國家像台灣,一直放在蘭嶼,一直對不起蘭嶼人?"},{"start":7849.397,"end":7858.683,"text":"第一階核廢料全世界就比較多了那麼台灣現在也碰到困難有困難困難我們台灣蘭嶼我們已經放在那邊幾年了核廢料71年到現在71年我們請台電董事長過來台電董事長請問台電當時有告訴過蘭嶼人說核廢料放在蘭嶼嗎"},{"start":7878.172,"end":7887.808,"text":"這個已經有過相關的補償我想也都查過了是沒有講清楚好那我們本來台電規劃什麼時候要把核廢料退出蘭嶼"},{"start":7890.697,"end":7911.907,"text":"我們有在其他的地方找第一階核廢料的儲存廠然後其實因為現在這一個就是第一階廢料的這個儲存廠的法律裡面規定要地方辦公投公投其實一直都沒有辦法順利進行所以因為這樣子我們一直對不起蘭嶼人我這樣講對吧"},{"start":7915.879,"end":7915.999,"text":"案案案案案案"},{"start":7935.734,"end":7961.693,"text":"第一件核廢料,101年詢問過金門縣政府這個也請陳玉珍委員注意一下如果你要投票支持的話金門縣政府說欠男配合辦理連公投都不願意辦理台東縣政府也說無法協助辦理公民投票事項這個都是公文所以到現在為止為什麼無法簽出至少有金門縣政府台東縣政府都連公投都不願意辦"},{"start":7962.654,"end":7988.753,"text":"那我們看一下現在我們偉大的國民黨總召聽說今天為什麼我們教文要排這個是國民黨總召傅坤琦要求排的沒有一個我們教文委員的提案啊這都是非教文委員提案要演繹啊那我們的國民黨總召擔任花蓮縣長的時候他說高階核廢料最終處置長連探勘都不能夠在花蓮探勘因為當時的專業說只有花蓮喔就是"},{"start":7992.691,"end":7998.435,"text":"當時他說這樣會扼殺花蓮縣觀光命脈而且他還說這個違反我們對原住民是一個他力挺秀林鄉原住民北上出草抗爭所以連探勘能不能放高階核廢料探勘都不行喔"},{"start":8019.991,"end":8024.534,"text":"結果2019年花蓮縣長徐真偉他也說他會要考慮花蓮的地震頻繁跟在地原住民反對的民意這是2019年就2021年花蓮縣長徐真偉他居然支持核四續建強調說現在核廢料放哪裡就放哪裡這不是就是一個最好的例子嗎花蓮這對不知道現在是不是還是夫妻的"},{"start":8047.327,"end":8047.347,"text":"案 。"},{"start":8062.449,"end":8077.537,"text":"案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條"},{"start":8090.103,"end":8111.944,"text":"被認為的相關縣市政府連公投都拒絕放。我們的國民黨總召傅坤祺說連探勘都不尊重原住民請問他尊重過萊嶼的原住民嗎?國民黨的總召、國民黨的召委、國民黨科智恩召委也請你問一下你們的總召為什麼?"},{"start":8112.705,"end":8137.426,"text":"花蓮不行,台東藍雨行。」這是核廢料問題,這無法解決的話,我不知道我們怎麼對得起下一代的子仙。我想請問我們核安會主委,請問你,那個從低階到高階的核廢料要多少年才能夠完全安全?高階核廢料目前估計是2055年,"},{"start":8140.653,"end":8160.898,"text":"我意思是說核廢料最終處置場要埋放多少年才會安全?十萬年各位有沒有聽到?就算我們找到一個地方要放十萬年才能夠完全讓它對人體傷害的毒性消失"},{"start":8161.858,"end":8164.002,"text":"所以這次到底是據說對台灣來講的話我們有什麼條件處理這個部分我們都還沒有講請問主委您再講一次我問過你了就是核三廠核一核二當時蓋的時候知道他們都可能有地震帶嗎"},{"start":8178.231,"end":8187.977,"text":"當時蓋的時候不清楚有這個恆春…完全不知道有地震帶嘛所以今天如果就算要做安全的審查也非常可能不過關嘛那請剛剛我們經濟次長無法回答我想最後再問台電董事長"},{"start":8195.04,"end":8208.168,"text":"這個安全齁 這個已經用了40年的核電廠齁 就算你要讓它有安全的物業廠的話 你估計可能要花費多少因為剛剛經濟部次長無法回答這個問題 這個成本代價你想一下是億還是兆或什麼 一個單位有沒有辦法估計"},{"start":8217.266,"end":8246.246,"text":"我們現在看到國外做的一些相關狀況都是千億的狀況千億以上剛才有提到日本的一些日本有些基礎原液的狀況用台幣來算的話是千億千億以上光是一個廠可能代價就千億以上對不對要維持他的安全嘛因為用了40年的核電廠他有好多東西要做很多東西要弄好那請問我們台電董事長這樣算起來核電還是便宜的嗎"},{"start":8247.674,"end":8269.063,"text":"看他做多久發電的度數去除那個我要這樣講跟委員報告就是說做研議相關的工作他要的支出的成本是一件事那我們現在面對的是最終處置也是不確定的東西我們其實在這件事情上台電最大的為難是我們會遇到很多不確定的事所以我們才一直在講"},{"start":8270.183,"end":8290.326,"text":"我們用缺電的邏輯來講核電其實沒有辦法讓核電在安全的前提下來做選擇好那最後我想請大家看一下2011年福島核災日本國土有8%受到放射性的污染到現在據說我們國民黨也反"},{"start":8290.646,"end":8290.686,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":8320.606,"end":8320.626,"text":"案。」"},{"start":8352.147,"end":8378.902,"text":"謝謝剛剛本席之前有特別提到在羅廷偉委員質詢結束之後我們休息五分鐘那因為羅廷偉委員前面的翁曉琳沒有到然後羅廷偉委員不在現場所以照過去來說呢我就用唱名三次的方法一路過去然後造成各位委員感知不及所以委員剛剛跟議事人員充分溝通完之後我做成以下的決定在休息五分鐘完之後呢我們由羅廷偉委員"},{"start":8379.642,"end":8379.822,"text":"案案。"},{"start":8416.837,"end":8422.23,"text":"規矩總召沒有邀請我,他沒有跟我做這個,我是自主的啊,他為什麼要求我做這個審查,不會啊。"},{"start":8773.631,"end":8774.892,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會,我們接下來請羅廷維委員。好,羅委員好。"},{"start":8796.84,"end":8816.031,"text":"那主委在正式討論之前夏天真的到了回家想跟你請問一下你自己會開冷氣嗎會本期在體感上感覺到今年真的是比往年悶熱許多你最近有沒有這樣的一個想法呢是的有那我想你還記得815全台大停電嗎這件事情"},{"start":8817.618,"end":8841.318,"text":"知道好2017年8月15號16點51分突然發生五一警大停電噢噪音就是中油對台電大潭發電廠停電器供應管線吶因拒入國際公司更換卡片不成噢造成的意外運作噢那導致大潭的發電廠六部機組全部停電進而造成了全台全台的一個電力備轉容量不足"},{"start":8841.618,"end":8870.537,"text":"公電的系統避免全面崩潰啟動的保護措施。」之後呢2017年9月8號天下雜誌就做了一個專題啊當時就說台灣公電年年吃緊2024年最危急也有標示出啊要撐過2024年結果呢去年天下更新了試算結果標題變了變成2025年台灣恐上演大停電我最擔心的是什麼我覺得政府啊面對自己的能源政策"},{"start":8871.237,"end":8892.146,"text":"案件,不是說完完全全的不要認錯,或者是認定它是錯誤,而是有沒有一個檢討機制,有沒有辦法去做滾動式的一個檢討。如果這樣子沒有去做任何的一個檢討,而且也不願意承認現在是缺電的一個進行式推動再生能源之餘,我們一直將所有不足的投入到燃煤跟燃氣。"},{"start":8893.226,"end":8915.352,"text":"我想這個對台中來說是一個非常重要的一個議題我們支持綠電的一個發展但是問題台中可以看到火力發電不斷的節節攀升燃煤跟燃氣一直不斷的上升都會影響到台中中部人的一個相關發電影響的健康今天我想請問幾個問題第一個 諸位我們第一次呢"},{"start":8916.172,"end":8942.126,"text":"在討論核能研議的一個議題是今年4月您在答詢的上面直接回答核安會不是能源政策的主管機關尊重立法院的決議而在上週經濟部長針對核三是否研議的意見也是尊重立法院的決定立法院怎麼定經濟部怎麼執行那我想詢問一下主委也就是說核安會會尊重經濟部經濟部會尊重立法院沒錯吧"},{"start":8943.752,"end":8967.048,"text":"今天我們終於要排審法案請問主委您的立場還是如此嗎?是的但是所有的條件都是以安全為前提安全是最重要的啦我能夠認同剛剛有委員所提到的也就是我們的核廢料處理的問題要怎麼去做一個探討但是我覺得應該還中部人一個公道"},{"start":8967.628,"end":8986.999,"text":"在處理核廢料的一個這個事件上我們要積極的去探討但在處理碳排量影響到中部人的健康是不是能夠一併來檢討而不是核廢料極其重要然後中部人用非發電就不重要我想兩者應該都一樣重要吧"},{"start":8987.759,"end":9009.326,"text":"主委您覺得呢?是的,這個有好幾個面向,一個是安全,一個是核廢料,一個是空氣污染。那另外我想請問,剛剛我們有提到這個核能延益的問題,我想跟您就較專業。以世界來說,核能延益在世界有沒有這樣的案例?非常多,大概60%。"},{"start":9011.288,"end":9021.836,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條條文修"},{"start":9035.25,"end":9045.67,"text":"不是不是對吧所以我們將這個年限拿掉以後要不要繼續研議是由行政主管機關來做決定是吧"},{"start":9046.894,"end":9072.232,"text":"是的,但是有前提,剛才我們提到了。安全。安全。我知道,但我需要跟你探討的是,今天我們探討這個法案,不會因為我們立法委員修了這個法,我們就一定要強制用核能來發電,而是還是交由行政主管機關,也就是現在的執政黨所相關的能源政策去做部署、規劃,由你們來決定要不要繼續來研議嗎?是這樣子沒錯吧?"},{"start":9075.221,"end":9097.349,"text":"還是我過度解讀我剛才提到很多的問題安全要面臨的很多的面向核廢料也要面臨很多的面向那這些有需要一些時間那麼它整個時程是不是可行那麼這個必須要審慎評估所以剛剛我們說了這麼多我們今天只是在探討要不要將這個彈性"},{"start":9099.41,"end":9127.267,"text":"讓主管機關有機會去拿捏去做一個探討並不是說我們今天把這個法案修了你們就一定要核能發電我想這個部分留有這一個行政主管機關來保有最後的決定權這個是你們的權利對吧但我想在另外請問叫您本身因為核能安全是你的專業那你們有在探討所謂的現在核三原液它的危險"},{"start":9128.428,"end":9132.313,"text":"是有還是沒有?風險你們內部有做規劃嗎?"},{"start":9135.91,"end":9160.129,"text":"風險必須看核三的機組去做安全的檢查目前有檢查過嗎?或者是有探討研議的可能性嗎?目前應該是沒有,台電沒有吧?沒有都沒有研議?也沒有探討過?沒有探討過好,謝謝我想我要再帶到這個我們現在看到世界的一個發展昨天李遠哲上節目有說這個相關的言論你應該很清楚"},{"start":9161.01,"end":9188.71,"text":"我想這位前輩所提到的雖然核能有其危險的地方但比起面對人類從地球上滅絕這是一個好的選項主委你個人認同這句話嗎我想我尊重李院長的發言好那我想在2050年淨零碳排到底需不需要核能主委您4月親口說過很難排除的選項您現在還是保留這樣子的說法嗎"},{"start":9189.266,"end":9190.547,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":9211.796,"end":9239.317,"text":"地熱新型核能有列入在你們的範圍內嗎?新型核能也看嘛如果是沒有這個核廢料那麼我們可以考慮那當然這個這個核融合那當然這個我們上一次報告5月29號有提到這個東西那這個世界上其實發展還需要一段時間目前在技術上有非常大的困難然後就到商業運轉"},{"start":9241.783,"end":9263.523,"text":"好,我想這個行政院長卓榮泰上次上個月也說非核家園的年限已經不在那行政院秘書長龔明星在擔任國發會的時候也說能源政策調整是可以討論的那已經成為了一個選項對執政黨來說我想依照現行的核管法研議要在五年前提出已經過了此限,因此卡關,對嗎?"},{"start":9266.172,"end":9295.572,"text":"我想核三長要研議有兩種路徑一個是修改核子反應器設施運轉執照的申請核消申請的辦法第16條讓取消執照有效期限屆滿在5年至15年進行換照的申請另一條就是修改核管法第6條讓研議不受審核辦法的限制但卓院長之前就說好就說沒有考慮修核管法也就是說不會有院版在沒有院版的情況下只要審幾個"},{"start":9296.812,"end":9300.634,"text":"條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具"},{"start":9319.424,"end":9331.49,"text":"同樣重要讓我們來把審慎思考讓整個法令能夠有所完善最後尊重我們主管機關能夠做相關的能源部署這是我們以上的一個態度謝謝接下來請葉元之委員"},{"start":9346.111,"end":9351.075,"text":"主席好麻煩請核能會主委陳主委好陳主委謝謝葉委員好主委好現在總統府有成立一個氣候變遷對策委員會您知道嗎"},{"start":9362.2,"end":9387.069,"text":"那有沒有開始運作?通知您去開會有沒有?表達意見?沒有,沒有通知從來沒有通知過你喔?沒有那是總統府成立的喔我們都知道說總統的權力應該是台灣最大的啦所以以總統府的決定為準啦那現在總統府我剛剛講那個氣候變遷對策委員會的副召集人童子賢講了一句話他說台灣現在沒有讓核電退場的條件"},{"start":9388.61,"end":9397.583,"text":"其實就跟我們今天修法的目標是一致的那我不知道主委對於童子賢就是這個委員會的副召集人所講的話你有沒有反對他的意見"},{"start":9398.747,"end":9427.706,"text":"我尊重那個...有沒有反對?不是尊重反...因為現在政策是立場啦沒有什麼尊重不尊重啦這今天講的是政策你是支持還是反對?核安會在這個核能的上面它是一個獨立機關它沒有特定的不是因為我們不是如果今天那今天修法就不用你來了嘛我們現在就是要討論要不要修法嘛所以問你的意見嘛那現在童子賢的意見跟我們今天修法方向一模一樣我現在問的是說你對於童子賢的看法你是支持還是反對?"},{"start":9429.608,"end":9457.605,"text":"我再次強調齁沒有沒有主委這個不能逃避不好意思你不能逃避你必須要回答你對於童子賢的意見是支持還是反對我沒有意見你沒有意見那你今天來答詢要幹嘛不是你不能逃避啦現在請問一下你對童子賢的意見支持還是反對不是尊重如果政府機關講的話你支持你就會說支持啦所以我就解讀你是反對啦但你不好意思講啦所以你說尊重啦齁那"},{"start":9459.093,"end":9486.915,"text":"李遠哲說核電雖然有缺點但是跟人類滅絕比較起來核電還是要繼續使用主委你認為核電使用的缺點比較大還是人類滅絕的影響比較大我想我也尊重不是啦主委你不能什麼都尊重啦政務官要有肩膀啦現在我講的都是你們民進黨的人講的話欸你都從頭尊重到尾"},{"start":9488.513,"end":9516.5,"text":"那今天修法請你來不就是要問你的看法跟意見嗎?你從頭到尾都尊重那這個詢問有什麼意義?不能夠逃避好不好?這個是立場我如果今天問你政治性口水什麼東西你說尊重我都沒有意見現在問的是跟你職權有關的政策議題沒有什麼尊重不尊重人家童子賢人家李遠哲人家都可以大方的對媒體表他的看法身為政務官的您居然問到跟你職權相關的議題你只能尊重那你一點肩膀都沒有欸"},{"start":9517,"end":9517.561,"text":"核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草"},{"start":9534.278,"end":9534.298,"text":"案 。"},{"start":9557.616,"end":9582.567,"text":"我想這個安全還是最重要的我問你反不反對這個條這個法案的修正那他必須先去解釋他的不是啦主委我舉個例子好了我們前一段時間我們在討論那個學生輔導法那教育部來大家就問他說你對於第一條有沒有意見對第二條有沒有意見第三條有沒有意見教育部長有沒有跟你一樣我尊重我沒有我只是什麼教育單位跟我無關"},{"start":9584.181,"end":9607.902,"text":"教育部來討論修法就是要表達看法表達意見我現在就問你意見就你從頭跟我尊重到尾我想還要看這個大約我現在就問你說這個條文你的態度是什麼我現在就是問你這個條文的態度是什麼那以後每個政府機關都選你就好了啊來跟我們委員討論條文他從頭尊重到尾"},{"start":9609.295,"end":9636.517,"text":"你的態度是什麼嗎?我想我們必須就條文本身具體的討論那你現在對條文哪一條有意見?哪一個文字有意見?我在報告裡面有提到五個版本你說反對就反對在場很多民進黨立委可能都是反對的等一下都要表達意見我現在是問你的態度嘛是的我在報告裡面有提到五個版本或有差異是不是可以合併討論合併討論然後你就支持是不是?"},{"start":9637.648,"end":9641.373,"text":"就是看大家可不可以打個公式。合併討論你的態度是什麼嘛?那好好 主委繼續問本來大家反核的聲音蠻大的之前發生福島核災的時候反核聲音很大現在已經非常多人跳出來支持核電了你知道原因是什麼嗎?"},{"start":9658.715,"end":9668.98,"text":"你知道原因是什麼嗎?主要是低碳嘛。要達到2050。低碳是一個嘛。李遠哲就是這個看法嘛。要淨零碳排嘛。否則人類滅絕嘛。還有沒有別的?能源需求吧。能源需求嘛。怕缺電嘛。還有嗎?還有沒有?"},{"start":9678.464,"end":9702.06,"text":"有很多包括像是國安的問題因為我們如果大量仰賴天然氣台灣並沒有產天然氣所以到時候如果被包圍的話天然氣進不來還有電價的問題因為綠能的電價一度是比較貴的這個是大家現在開始認為核能可以考慮要使用的原因當然核安也是非常重要當然對於核電的影響大家還是要減少它對於環境的影響當然大家比較嚴"},{"start":9708.339,"end":9714.364,"text":"擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員"},{"start":9736.385,"end":9753.035,"text":"其中78部有獲得他們的主管機關NRC的審查而且同意研議。換句話說美國的機組也有研議的經驗而且分兩次一次它的運轉執照年限延長到60年後來有6部再申請再運轉"},{"start":9754.096,"end":9774.714,"text":"後來申請就延長到80年。」換句話說他還是有一個審查的過程讓他的核電廠可以研議所以研議不是說不可以在美國的經驗是這樣那美國在審查他們的機組研議的時候他們會評估什麼呢也是一樣評估對於安全跟對環境的影響那他們的審查的"},{"start":9775.902,"end":9800.455,"text":"年限的中位數字落在兩年多左右。」換句話說我是要提醒主委啦今天這麼多人呼籲說沒有停止核電的條件如果到時候台電要去申請研議的話他的審查的時間其實也是會有一定的時間可能會有一年到兩年所以到時候現在大家一直呼籲一直呼籲一直呼籲都聽不進去等到真的要用的時候"},{"start":9801.516,"end":9821.647,"text":"你不是馬上可以用的你不是馬上可以用的那更何況我們現在法律還卡在那邊那第二個我要提醒主委的是我們的核廢料的問題我們的核廢料核一、核二、核三廠所面臨的狀況是完全不一樣的核一、核二他們的燃料池都已經滿了現在是乾式儲存槽都沒有蓋所以這個部分"},{"start":9824.093,"end":9849.804,"text":"我希望台電或者是核安會可以積極跟地方政府溝通,看到底問題卡在哪裡。核一廠的乾式儲存槽是已經過了嘛,那一定要如質如實的興建。核二廠問題卡在哪?如果是水保問題也要去解決,不是就放在那邊。那核三廠問題比較簡單,因為它的私式儲存槽就是燃料池並沒有滿,所以核三廠如果要研議的話是一個比較可行的方案。"},{"start":9851.624,"end":9870.909,"text":"合一合二現在過去地方政府比較有疑慮是因為我們現在政府一直沒有找到一個永久的儲存場一直沒有找我上次也在這邊質詢過給我的感覺是完全沒有在找丟了一句話說因為地方有意見所以就不去找了感覺就是擺爛啊我必須要說就是擺爛那難道核電廠不研議就沒有核廢料嗎我們看一個資料"},{"start":9878.1,"end":9890.17,"text":"我們不雙轉直接廚藝一樣有核廢料的問題這是核三廠預估兩部機組在廚藝期間也都會產生低放射性的廢棄物換句話說大概會有55加侖約為81374桶的核廢料所以核廢料"},{"start":9897.318,"end":9919.185,"text":"不是你停議就不處理啦不管你要不要停議不管你要不要延役不管你要不要再使用都要積極去處理核廢料問題第一方面符合地方政府期待第二你還是不斷產生核廢料也是要去解決那如果要延役的話更是要解決所以希望政府拿出你們的執行力不要遇到這東西就在擺爛了謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝主委謝謝葉映智委員接下來是陳培宇委員"},{"start":9932.295,"end":9935.016,"text":"好,謝謝主席,那有請主委。好,請主委。好,陳委員好。好,主委你好。我相信所有的教育及文化委員會的委員都會非常在意一件事情。當我們在這邊討論這麼複雜,不管是所謂再運轉、研議或是核廢料,對於一般國家的公民來說,我們其實在意的是安全這件事情,是您的主管,對吧?"},{"start":9959.605,"end":9967.447,"text":"那就您的專業角度來看在這個相關法條當中剛剛有非常多的委員一直要您表態我想要我不要問表態我想要就您的安全給我們建議我想要問一個條文他這樣寫適不適當有一個委員的版本他寫的是前效運轉執照有效期間為40年期滿需繼續運轉者"},{"start":9982.03,"end":10008.81,"text":"經營者得依主管機關規定申請換發執照。他下面甚至寫:「主管機關不得以藉其實現,拒絕換發申請。」民事主管機關,他這樣要求,請問我們怎麼看待這個行政跟立法之間的這個邏輯?這個部分,一般法案很少規定自己主管的法律,不得"},{"start":10009.875,"end":10021.039,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第6會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第6會期教育及文化委員王鴻"},{"start":10039.546,"end":10057.883,"text":"應該是不行吧就如同剛剛葉元之委員他拿學輔法來舉例我就先不要說他那一天在場有沒有關於學輔法他有任何的關懷跟發言我就不予置評那一天從頭做到尾的是我們民進黨所有的教育文化委員會的委員還有國民黨的召委柯志恩主席"},{"start":10058.764,"end":10072.668,"text":"我就先不管他當天談了學復法什麼關懷但是就他剛剛一直要你表態這件事情我想要請主委我們絕對支持您的專業跟您背後所帶領的專家團隊來看待這個安全的議題請問我這樣的論述是否合理謝謝"},{"start":10079.657,"end":10080.858,"text":"核子反應器設施管制法"},{"start":10097.148,"end":10113.284,"text":"完全正確那國人會問核安是什麼我們來往下看一看今天所有的國民黨委員的版本裡面他們說要把這個版本修完我就問如果把這個版本修完難道就可以解決所謂的核安疑慮嗎我自己的觀點是不行的"},{"start":10113.624,"end":10142.984,"text":"但是在國民黨委員的版本裡面他們不斷提出美國、法國、歐洲、日本我相信他們手上的資料跟數據主委你一定是清楚的但是我可不可以問一個事情我們在搬移任何國家的相關經驗跟法規之前我們要不要考慮台灣的地理環境人文社會條件還有我們目前剛剛葉元志委員自己也講了核廢料儲存的問題這些事情它會不會有國情差異"},{"start":10145.426,"end":10159.179,"text":"委員答得非常好,這個問題講得非常好。國家都會試自己的情況和抉擇,包含德國他是反核,到現在也是。"},{"start":10160.26,"end":10186.005,"text":"那麼台灣有自己面臨的情況那麼有民意的問題有核安的問題有核廢料的問題那很多的面向需要大家來凝聚共識好,所以如果你說的我們有國情的問題我們還有社會共識的問題甚至我們可能還有科普教育的問題因為每次只要談到相關議題我們就會看到有民間非常多造謠的圖卡"},{"start":10187.145,"end":10196.012,"text":"光是就這件事情我們其實就已經花很多很多很多力氣溝通我們今天就來談第一個問題難道美國真的沒有核廢料處理的問題跟老舊核電廠安全的疑慮嗎就你手上有的專業報告應該是有的吧因為我手上有的資料其實滿滿的都有說明其實美國自己也在面臨相關議題就算剛剛葉元芝委員他說美國已經把相關核電廠研議但是我們實際上看到資料為什麼要研議"},{"start":10215.626,"end":10229.702,"text":"因為他們已經沒有相關的成本或資源再投入興建新的核電廠於是他們是不得不的情況下做了這個處理我的論述是對的嗎?主委正確好那如果我們來看一下法國"},{"start":10230.503,"end":10245.583,"text":"法國目前其實他們的核電發電量也在下降我手上有這些資料我們辦公室花了很多力氣我們也討論甚至法國還有反應爐老化的問題回到台灣我們在相關的設備上難道不用考慮這些事情嗎"},{"start":10248.005,"end":10273.453,"text":"完全要考慮啦,那安全還是所有的前提。好,所以我們安全只是一個概念,一旦我討論到機組設置的問題,我討論核廢料,我甚至考慮到人民的共識,這些都包含在所謂的核安全底下,對嗎?也就是安全兩個字看起來很廣泛,但是我們要討論這麼多的細節,而且這裡面還有很多細節,它是跟科學專業背景有關,對嗎?"},{"start":10275.523,"end":10297.345,"text":"好,謝謝主委,那我們來往下看。在今天還有委員的版本,他的寫法是這樣寫的,我也是看不到啦。他說,這個,核電經營者因於執照有效期限借滿錢向主管機關申請換發執照,未取得換發執照之前不得繼續運轉,但經主管機關確認核子反應設施安全無虞時,得繼續運轉。"},{"start":10300.101,"end":10324.438,"text":"這個主管機關又是你了,主委。是的,這個部分我核安會不敢承擔,這個責任太重大了。是,那如果您說的這個責任重大,那我們就必須要把所有的事情一併拿起來考慮,不是嗎?還有剛剛葉元之委員自己一再提到核廢料儲存的問題,那我就說在跟地方縣市政府的溝通,其實這個要不要發照的權利在他們身上,對嗎?"},{"start":10326.174,"end":10339.098,"text":"我相信你們在過往跟地方政府的溝通上一定也是花了很多時間花了很多的討論甚至開了很多的會但是就您在任內你所認為在跟地方政府溝通上我們最大的困境是不是就是您剛剛說的民意"},{"start":10342.202,"end":10369.409,"text":"是民意的問題是民意的問題我們來看一下民意大家都知道我過去十幾年住在花蓮在花蓮開過書店我們來談一下核廢料我們來往下看去年11月曾經有民眾投書說台電內定在宜蘭南澳跟花蓮秀林交觸界作為高放處置場後來你們有所澄清我們再往下看過往其實這不是民眾第一次我們剛剛一直在談民意這件事情不是民眾第一次對於相關事情有疑慮"},{"start":10370.209,"end":10395.219,"text":"在傅坤祺總召12年前擔任花蓮縣長的時候新聞非常多他說當時是原能會跟台電不要亂倒核廢料成為歷史罪人否則他將率領原住民北上出草抗爭這是他當時在擔任縣長的時候的說法時隔12年關於核廢料這件事情我們是不是還有很多內容跟議題需要討論長路漫漫"},{"start":10397.952,"end":10424.179,"text":"是的,到目前沒有辦法解決。好,如果到目前沒有辦法解決,我就最後問,我的時間有限。我們修完今天所有的版本之後,就可以解決嗎?主委。問題還是存在的。對嘛,我相信您的法學素養跟我的法學素養,我怎麼看起來這些版本完全沒有辦法解決。連富坤崎總召自己也沒有辦法解決。所以我想在今天這個議題上,我們確實有待商榷,有待討論的地方還非常非常多,對嗎?主委。是的。"},{"start":10426.508,"end":10439.892,"text":"甚至跟我們的國家公民要溝通的內容也還非常多我想這條路上我們一起努力好嗎好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝陳佩玉委員接下來是吳佩奕委員好謝謝主席我請何安慧請主委吳委員好"},{"start":10458.591,"end":10465.113,"text":"主委好,剛剛前面葉元智委員問你說,主委今天是要審法條嗎?因為今天為什麼我們現在為什麼在這裡?是因為國民黨的委員提了五個提案的版本,要來修核桿法的第六條。剛剛葉元智委員問你說,主委請問你對哪一條有意見?"},{"start":10481.244,"end":10485.148,"text":"顯然一人是委員連今天要修哪一條都不知道今天就只修一條就是第六條而已那在這裡我也想要向召委表示我的意見因為我們今天提案版本通通都是國民黨立委的版本那剛剛在前面提案說明裡面"},{"start":10498.743,"end":10503.125,"text":"我一直在聽這些提案委員有沒有對於第六條裡面的內容等會主委會跟你討論究竟他現在要放寬的是廚藝中的機組還是運轉中的機組每一個版本的提案文字通通不一樣法律的定義這麼不明確立法的品質這麼的粗糙但是剛剛在立委的提案說明裡面我通通沒有聽到"},{"start":10523.795,"end":10526.497,"text":"他們通通在講一些民間人士的意見請我們評論這個不叫做法案的詢答及討論那麼等一會如果按照今天的議程我們現在詢答完畢等一會如果要進入逐條審查的話我要求所有國民黨的提案委員必須仍要在現場要到場我們才審"},{"start":10545.762,"end":10552.624,"text":"不能說提案的委員提案說明也不說清楚審查法案人也不到場但現場通常是我們議長的委員這麼不負責任提了這些法案當中這麼多的問題涉及到核電廠老舊核電廠40年了還要去研議安全性的問題這非同小可"},{"start":10566.127,"end":10571.43,"text":"結果提案人說明也不說明等會如果沒有大廠的話我拒絕審查這個提案前面我要跟主委討論的是因為我在看今天我剛剛講說這提案好幾個委員提案的版本裡面因為我一直在看他們的文字的使用因為我想了解究竟這版本當中的意頭"},{"start":10587.94,"end":10590.303,"text":"現在主要就是說我們台灣就三座核電廠核一有二廠除役當中核三廠明年全部機組到期按照先行法規40年到期了如果要運轉必須向核安會提出申請而且要有審查審查要來通過了才可以換照"},{"start":10606.457,"end":10618.207,"text":"但是目前三個核電廠通通都已經超過研議的申請換照期限所以才會有今天我們在這裡國民黨的立委現在提的法案版本就是國民黨立委覺得他們比憲法還要大"},{"start":10622.751,"end":10622.771,"text":"案。"},{"start":10639.608,"end":10656.159,"text":"不是審一天、審兩天、審三個月半年可以審過的所以才有這個時間的年限但是我看到舉例羅志強委員提案版本當中他的這個文字主管機關不得已藉其時限來拒絕發申請來我請問主委如果按照你對這個條文的理解這個條文規定它是適用運轉中機組還是除役中機組還是兩者皆是還是並不明確"},{"start":10668.308,"end":10689.987,"text":"按照這個文字也就兩者皆是好再來我們來看王鴻薇委員提案的版本按照他的文字非經主管機關審核其功率試驗合格並發給運轉執照不得正式運轉運轉執照之有限期限最長為40年請問按照王鴻薇委員提案的版本這個法規適用的是運轉中機組或者除役中機組或者兩者皆是"},{"start":10693.716,"end":10699.141,"text":"或者不明確對你認為不明確沒有錯如果按照剛剛羅志強委員提案的版本這個法案如果通過不是核三場研議而已喔核一、核二場通通可以再來申請換照研議喔主委這個法條的理解是不是這個樣子"},{"start":10715.695,"end":10722.864,"text":"所以說這個每個版本都不一樣如果按照羅志祥委員提案我就很擔心啦因為我們本委委員會也有合一合第二場所在地新北市的立法委員啦葉願志委員、何孟楷委員都是新北市的立法委員"},{"start":10733.718,"end":10737.301,"text":"合一合二場要繼續研議現在光是一個現有的乾式儲存場都還在卡關因為我們核廢料都不知道怎麼處理了你再研議下去只會堆更多的核廢料我們需要在新北再蓋新的乾式儲存場"},{"start":10754.406,"end":10757.167,"text":"這個我希望這個國會頻道民眾都在看說大家要來看清楚你們選區的立法委員新北市的立委在立法院裡面現在如果支持羅志強委員提案版本也就是說他支持未來合一合二場都可以再來申請換照演繹喔"},{"start":10775.22,"end":10782.906,"text":"這個是不是這樣的事實?那再來要討論的是,主委我非常關心的,因為我們現在的核電廠,最早核一廠1978年蓋的,最晚的核三廠1985年都在我出生之前就蓋了。那當時我們是我國還沒有環評法規,環評法是在1994年才通過的。"},{"start":10794.975,"end":10799.837,"text":"按照我們現在當代的觀念我們連蓋一座公園都要進行環評了為什麼這都有太多安全的問題也就是說台灣現行的三座核電廠有沒有哪一座有做過環評的評估沒有現行的核電廠通通沒有做過環評的評估"},{"start":10814.517,"end":10817.18,"text":"我們連蓋個公園都要環評評估蓋個核電廠難道不用嗎?其實我認為我們現在民進黨政府都是有愧於民眾的因為很多民眾可能都還不知道說原來這個核電廠根本當年沒做過環評的評估所以如果現在由立委要修法來討論核電廠還要演繹"},{"start":10835.851,"end":10840.414,"text":"我們現在法規要不要同步來處理呢我們現在現行的法規因為後來已經徵修過核管法如果現在要蓋一座新的核電廠要不要進行環評需要是需要的嘛但是如果他們現在國民黨委員提案的版本三座沒有做過環評而且都運作40年的老舊核電廠要繼續研議也許在下一個40年按照現在的法律要做環評嗎"},{"start":10863.305,"end":10865.827,"text":"現在我們台灣你去問哪一個民眾可以接受蓋核電廠不需要做環評通通不能接受"},{"start":10878.897,"end":10884.182,"text":"何況你演繹要等同於當作新核電廠來試值我強力的這樣主張絕對要再進行環評才可以再進行評估再來是最後我要請教主委是我們今天討論的因為關於核電現在有一些核融合新型核電小型核電廠的一些討論"},{"start":10898.855,"end":10921.132,"text":"有不同的意見這也是很多擁核者他們提出來的論述我個人對於這個新型核電因為都還沒有運轉過我還是抱持高度的疑慮但我還是想要釐清清楚今天我們在這裡討論的是針對國民黨提案五個版本核管法第六條修法的討論核管法第六條有沒有去管理到新型的核電廠"},{"start":10923.157,"end":10927.403,"text":"是沒有的,核管法在處理的就是針對老舊核電廠這一個修法就是要對老舊核電廠做一個後門的放寬"},{"start":10933.638,"end":10951.995,"text":"所以新式核電的這個支持者我認為我雖然個人高度疑慮但認為可以討論可是要講清楚的是今天的這個修法完全跟新式的核能沒有關係今天的這個修法第六條的版本通通這個國民黨立委提案版本當中在處理的就只有已經運轉40年的老舊核電廠"},{"start":10956.96,"end":10959.021,"text":"那這個安全的問題是最重要第二個核廢料沒有處理沒有資格來討論核電廠的演繹任何人只要支持今天提案的版本剛剛我們已經確認了他有可能會涉及到核一、核二廠的演繹喔"},{"start":10972.145,"end":10989.258,"text":"那就是你們要支持在屏東有更多的核廢料嗎?你們要支持在新北市有更多的核廢料嗎?要討論法案不要在空中談台灣現在這一條法在處理的就是現行的核電廠它有所在地所以我認為要務實來評估 謝謝好 謝謝兩位接下來本席宣布我們今天的提案在整個委員會質詢完畢之後再來處理接下來我們請王鴻薇委員"},{"start":11008.362,"end":11023.794,"text":"謝謝主席我請我們核安會的陳主委還有我們經濟部連次長今天是次長來我們台電的董事長董事長、次長還有我們主委謝謝"},{"start":11027.216,"end":11047.183,"text":"王委員好主委你們今天的報告第一開宗明義就是說有關核電演繹的事情要有社會共識經濟部的報告也是要有社會共識那麼你們對於所謂的社會共識的定義是什麼"},{"start":11052.062,"end":11065.37,"text":"沒有定義,你們的報告不是亂寫嗎?我想至少需要大院委員意見可以整合。所以重點,你們這不就是廢話嗎?就是說,立法院有沒有同意這個核電研議的相關條例?那我剛才在做這個提案說明的時候,"},{"start":11076.957,"end":11094.405,"text":"也特別提出來就最新的這個民調美麗島電子報的民調那麼對於立法院有沒有必要修法延長核電廠的使用期限事實上是高達64.1%那所以我們一再講所謂的社會共識社會共識如果其實一個民調現在大家知道其實這個現在的社會的意見是相當多元的"},{"start":11104.81,"end":11130.718,"text":"如果這樣子還不代表社會共識那麼到底要怎麼樣才算是社會共識那另外呢我剛才也有注意到我們有一些我們黨籍民進黨籍的這個立委的反對我覺得本來很多事情大家有贊成有反對但是有些說法我覺得簡直是非常我覺得已經幾乎到笑掉人家大牙了啦"},{"start":11133.119,"end":11148.469,"text":"今天是戰鬥藍的立委提出來的議案這是國會擴權這不是很好笑嗎?如果按照這個民調是百分之六四的民眾都是戰鬥藍呢?所以今天我們針對一個這樣重大的民生經濟專業的法案"},{"start":11153.712,"end":11158.794,"text":"不要講這種政治的話語所以同樣的我也希望我們各單位能夠本於自己的職權你在講說我說社會共識你們講了好久的社會共識結果定義竟然是說你們要不要通過我們現在就在處理這個事情另外大家一直提到的特別核電廠附近的居民那麼最近因為你們要準備啟動已經啟動了核三廠的廚藝"},{"start":11183.163,"end":11186.665,"text":"所以可以看到周邊鄉鎮的心聲我今天早上也特別提到恆春鎮長他說核三研議是在地人的希望然後四個鄉鎮通通要挺研議"},{"start":11198.53,"end":11213.003,"text":"所以這個部分是不是一個代表一個民意包含現在的核二廠比如我們現在其實主要的討論是在於核三廠因為核三廠還在運作而且你的核燃料棒其實都還沒有滿嘛"},{"start":11214.344,"end":11214.745,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":11230.723,"end":11236.947,"text":"昨天我們也看到反核青鳥到立法院周邊來後來有人去算大概200人過去在反核的時代動輒上萬人如果走上街頭動輒上萬人我是人我反核可是經過這幾年的洗禮經過這幾年台灣能源的不穩定經過這幾年世界各國相繼的去延長核電廠的壽命"},{"start":11261.104,"end":11266.69,"text":"大家也開始意識到特別比如說包含林遠哲院長他也講到的沒有錯核電廠他有核安的問題可是氣候邊遷有人類滅絕的問題你能說他不是專家嗎"},{"start":11278.203,"end":11281.145,"text":"你能說他是戰鬥籃嗎?你能說他是國民黨的代言人嗎?所以我們現在在討論這一些議題的時候請回到專業問題好 我們來問一下台電董事長童子賢估計因為我們要發展AI產業他說未來的用電量他事實上增加未來用電增加上看300億度"},{"start":11307.057,"end":11309.919,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具 «核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草"},{"start":11336.189,"end":11360.393,"text":"第一核二核三廠加起來才會有300億度核三廠不會有300億度第二經營部現在做的評估8年的用電成長量高過300億度未來8年高過300億度所以你們的用電量其實還高於童子賢所預估的量我們估計的是更高對不對所以你們講那個3%是錯誤的甚至3%的量就會比300億度大"},{"start":11366.822,"end":11381.747,"text":"所以你們現在全部制高於300億度是多少億度呢我這樣跟委員報告就是部長有提到我們會出電力工序報告電力工序報告會來一下你們不是說7月中嗎提出來了嗎正在正在什麼時候提出呢這個是經濟部會來提什麼時候因為當時有講啊你們台電送給經濟部了嗎這個不是台電送的"},{"start":11392.622,"end":11392.762,"text":"案案案案"},{"start":11422.422,"end":11423.564,"text":"謝謝主席 核安會主委有請"},{"start":11430.768,"end":11459.437,"text":"主委今天大家都在討論核電演繹的問題大概兩個層面一個叫做民意的變化第二個叫做國際的趨勢民意的變化我想剛剛王鴻薇委員講得非常清楚超過63%到64%左右的人民基本上是贊成用開放的態度來務實的處理核電演繹的問題過去曾經有一段時間確實反核聲音是非常大甚至都講出了我是人我反核我請問核安會主委現在如果60幾%的人希望核電演繹請問他們不是人嗎"},{"start":11462.604,"end":11487.415,"text":"當然是人啦是嘛 對不對所以民意本來就是變化的所以換言之我們作為政治人物決定國家的政策當然要跟民意為依歸啊所以不要去講說這是這不應該是藍綠惡鬥的問題應該是務實面對國家挑戰的問題喔第二個我要講國際趨勢喔這個本期今天早上來出席在龜山我的選區一個算力中心的一個開幕典禮這個我本來要在那個地方待到典禮完成還要上去致詞"},{"start":11488.095,"end":11503.5,"text":"但是後來看時間實在來不及我只好提早離開為什麼呢因為我在下面跟他們聊天的時候他們的人直接講報告委員今天很高興你來但是我們這個算力中心順利運作我們缺電這個算力中心背後是美商在投資他說連美國人都覺得很疑惑為什麼"},{"start":11505.34,"end":11521.566,"text":"為什麼當全世界需要AI發展AI發展電動車等等產業的時候台灣的能源政策如此僵化為什麼不務實地使用核能我聽到他們這樣講我就決定好吧我覺得今天的質詢好像還是比較重要所以我就提早離開了我們今天就舉幾個國際的例子來做一下討論先舉韓國的例子韓國總統尹錫悅2022年就任之後基本上就開始了大核電時代這個"},{"start":11529.289,"end":11550.45,"text":"以他的這個能源戰略來看2018年的時候核電佔比23.4%煤41.9天然氣26.8韓國再生源恐怕沒有我們走得快也沒有我們走得早但是淨零碳排是全世界共通面對的趨勢所以他們在2036年預計核電佔比提升到34%煤炭大幅下降到19%天然氣22%微幅下降"},{"start":11554.253,"end":11571.652,"text":"當然也要把再生能源的空間撐出來所以有30%的再生能源其實這樣子的一個能源戰略路徑其實就標準叫以核養綠務實減碳他為了把30%的再生能源的量擠出來他不得不依賴現有的核電甚至合理的來增加其實這不只是韓國嘛日本的核電廠研議了沒"},{"start":11572.293,"end":11575.334,"text":"韓國政府為什麼要決定把核電的占比再往上提高?第一蓋新機組的花費時間遠遠超過舊機組研議"},{"start":11591.118,"end":11614.78,"text":"最後我們郭智慧部長也講了嘛至少6年而且還不記錄人民反對這樣子的一個變化的因素第二韓國如果發展AI產業資訊中心就是我剛講的算力中心還有電動車相關的產業不管怎麼樣電力需求必然大增第三如果不使用核電必然要使用天然氣發電但天然氣的成本昂貴而且運輸是另外隱形的成本"},{"start":11615.501,"end":11633.711,"text":"台灣跟韓國在產業上有若干的相似跟競爭之處,AI產業我們難道不跟他們競爭嗎?一定要拼的嘛,對不對?總不能輸掉下一個20年,下一個30年。我們也都想發展高比例的再生能源,他們有風場,我們也有風場。他們的土地面積還比我們大一些,發展太陽能也很有潛力。但即便是這樣子,他們也沒有捨棄核電不是嗎?"},{"start":11634.531,"end":11649.121,"text":"那我們今天如果故不知風非常僵化不是非常奇怪的事嗎?剛剛有很多人講40年的老舊機組好可怕好像會吃人的一樣請問主委這個美國總共有幾個核電反應爐?大概90幾座94座對不對?他們都運轉幾年了?超過40年大概有50幾座57座超過40年"},{"start":11659.878,"end":11668.723,"text":"已經有50幾座,超過40年對不對?我跟你講總共有85顆啊,達到40年的運轉期限之後,申請再研議,再研議幾年?再研議20年對不對?所以說94顆裡面有85顆啊,40年運轉期滿之後可以再搞20年啊,並且已經有61顆其實已經超過40年的運轉期限了,這叫國際趨勢啊。我們為什麼要對於科技,我們為什麼要對於技術那麼沒有信心呢?"},{"start":11686.172,"end":11712.451,"text":"我想全世界大概沒有幾個國家像台灣一樣還主動立法阻斷務實可用的發電工具啊我們不反對核安會秉持你的本位好好的嚴審把關這沒有問題嘛大家都不會反對不是嗎可是用一個法令自解自廢武功自己把手腳打斷然後說我們要迎向未來AI產業挑戰迎向未來淨零碳排的趨勢我覺得是笑話一則我希望政府在今天修法的時候可以用務實而且長遠的觀點來看待這件事情以上謝謝"},{"start":11718.623,"end":11722.225,"text":"好,謝謝您委員,謝謝主委接下來請洪森翰委員主席喔,好我想請陳主委、田次長跟曾董事長好,我們請三位,謝謝"},{"start":11749.206,"end":11755.287,"text":"案。」議員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":11772.571,"end":11795.46,"text":"第二類活動斷層。」第二類活動斷層。那我請問一下當初河山廠在建廠的時候知道下面有活動斷層嗎?這個應該是新的市政啦。也就是說當初河山廠在建廠的時候是不知道它的正下方有一條活動斷層的嗎?那什麼時候才知道下面有一條活動斷層?"},{"start":11797.415,"end":11799.977,"text":"二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具 «核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":11822.826,"end":11848.902,"text":"剛剛有好幾位在黨的委員提到國外有一些嚴厲的案例但我相信這些核電廠的下方沒有一條活動斷層通過這個核電廠的正下方今天不管政治上面我們怎麼吵但這一條通過核電廠正下方的活動斷層就是擺在眼前的事實"},{"start":11850.97,"end":11870.969,"text":"所以我說如果現在在野黨要來討論核三的演繹的話我認為比較負責任的應該是要多去討論那到底怎麼面對這個斷層到底安全的評估如何但對不起我們其實在今天委員會的討論裡面我們幾乎看不到在野黨對於這一條斷層所帶來的安全風險的問題有任何嚴肅的討論"},{"start":11876.482,"end":11889.953,"text":"我們感覺很像要在沒有對這個斷層的風險做出討論之前就要急急忙忙的來放寬核安管制的法規這讓人覺得非常非常的不安啊今天我們主席、柯委員他也可能立志他要選高雄我相信啊大家看到現在這一檔這種匆匆忙忙"},{"start":11906.411,"end":11923.643,"text":"然後沒有討論核能安全的問題就想要急著出委會急著想要修法的態度我不知道高雄人接不接受我不知道南部人接不接受所以今天我很明確今天不管你是哪一黨派的不管你的立場為何這個電廠下面活動斷層經過"},{"start":11930.203,"end":11942.334,"text":"橫村斷層是南部最大的活動斷層這件事情就擺在眼前嘛那怎麼面對嘛怎麼處理嘛為什麼其他的核電廠下面都沒有斷層只有這條有斷層為什麼說過了嘛因為之前不知道嘛不知道才會在這一個相對風險高相對不安全的地方來蓋核電廠嘛"},{"start":11956.223,"end":11975.663,"text":"那我們現在再有一次機會我們要不要繼續在這一個斷層上面活動斷層上的核電廠繼續承擔這個風險這是我們要做決定的事情嘛我要提一個其實地震帶上的核電廠的安全最近有個案例可以參考今年的1月能登半島一樣發生規模7的地震"},{"start":11979.212,"end":12004.883,"text":"南南半島附近也有六座核電廠那在三一福島核災後其實日本針對核災發生後的疏散計畫其實做了蠻多嚴密的加強跟改進但在這一次南南半島的事件裡面其實媒體都有報導大家發現了幾件事情一樣如果戶外是有輻射的但政府規定要待在家裡躲輻射但對不起防射都倒了請問要躲在哪裡"},{"start":12006.462,"end":12016.269,"text":"沒有避難的地方。」第二個,復興的居民都要疏散但道路中斷連疏散都沒有辦法連輻射的側站對不起"},{"start":12017.489,"end":12039.46,"text":"都被正道訊號中斷。」所以你根本搞不清楚到底輻射的熱點在哪裡,也包括整個通訊是中斷的。所以當今天遇到地震的時候的複合性的災難,很多地方都跟原本設想的是不一樣的。這樣子的疏散的情境,這樣子的核災的情境,我們是可以透過現在的例子裡面來做參考的。但很抱歉啊,"},{"start":12040.16,"end":12058.531,"text":"我們今天在這個委員會裡面有沒有任何一個人嚴肅討論這些實際上面已經發生的災害的狀況我們怎麼面對沒有在這些沒有討論的狀況之下就要匆匆忙忙來放寬核安管制的法規如果未來這些狀況發生誰要負責誰要負責如果這個風險的狀況發生如果這個災害的狀況發生誰要負責我要問主委你能負責嗎"},{"start":12071.36,"end":12075.241,"text":"這就是一個在地震帶上的核電廠發生狀況以後所遇到的諸多"},{"start":12092.759,"end":12119.908,"text":"你無法想像的困境逃逃不出去連車站輻射值都不知道通訊也中斷根本不知道怎麼避難但我們居然要在這樣的情境下面就要來放寬核能管制的法規我真的要奉勸大家我覺得核電的政策可以討論但核安的議題我相信就算支持核電的人也不希望台灣發生核災也不希望台灣受到核災的威脅"},{"start":12121.544,"end":12138.561,"text":"可是現在在立法院裡面討論的這種方式我們其實針對像這個具體發生的問題我們得不到答案啊在沒有答案之前就要鬆綁和安法規我真的要奉勸大家不應該這樣做"},{"start":12141.772,"end":12164.256,"text":"如果到時候發生了沒有人可以負責沒有人可以被究責這是我們最擔心的事情我們希望等一下我們的審議可以審慎可以把真的核安的問題、核非法的問題做一個綜合的討論以後今天我們要修的不是能源法規今天在野黨要修的是核能安全法規是要放鬆放寬核能安全法規我希望主委要秉持專業的立場從專業來說話謝謝"},{"start":12171.151,"end":12175.074,"text":"好謝謝請各位回座接下來是鄭天才委員好主席各位委員有請主委好我們請主委謝謝"},{"start":12200.546,"end":12226.613,"text":"正委員好主委好完全正確這個重責大任就在你主委的身上和安會的身上包括台電負責這個核電廠的人身上專業我們絕對要專業今天這個法例如果修正通過"},{"start":12228.553,"end":12255.54,"text":"是不是馬上就研議還是要經過台電的審慎評估各種專業加上你的專業的合同意才可以研議對不對好就是要專業我們就是要專業我們看這個核子反應器設施管制辦法第六條最長40年好最長40年對不對"},{"start":12257.165,"end":12285.774,"text":"我們現在核一、核二、核三都幾年了?核三將近四十年,核一、核二都超過四十年了。對不對?剛才講的,尤其是洪森剛才講的,都知道啊,都已經知道了,地層袋啦,都知道了,對不對?也都知道核廢料沒地方放啊,也都知道了,對不對?你後面的這個都有寫啊,禁滿存、禁滿儲,"},{"start":12287.116,"end":12293.742,"text":"沒地方放啊所以你今天的報告啊你今天的報告"},{"start":12295.27,"end":12322.815,"text":"你的結論是什麼?目前國內大眾對於核電廠研議仍存有不同意見,特別是針對核能安全、核廢料處理、社會共識等議題,稀審慎、評估、充分導入溝通。核安會作為我國獨立的核能安全管制機關,與國際核能先進國家的管制機關一樣,本以職責與專業,為民眾把關並從核能安全管制實務觀點。"},{"start":12324.195,"end":12346.899,"text":"提供專業意見。」前面這句話就核安會來講前面這段不用寫你只能寫你這後面這段你要本以獨立的核能安全管制機關與國際核能先進國家的管制機關一樣本以職責與專業來把關"},{"start":12352.659,"end":12363.543,"text":"今天很清楚的,現在不是說這個核一、核二、核三,都知道,都已經40年了,有的快近40年了,有的超過40年了。對不對?到底還能不能用?還可不可以研議?這個法,今天的修法,不管有沒有修,"},{"start":12377.281,"end":12378.622,"text":"正委員我跟你報告齁"},{"start":12408.086,"end":12430.403,"text":"可不可以言必須台電就相關的核能記錄我剛才聽過主委我剛才聽過你的說法了是台電要先去檢視檢視然後再送到你這邊然後他如果認為某些的元件需要更換他必須去確保這個安全性然後提出一個報告"},{"start":12431.184,"end":12455.191,"text":"那這個報告我們有相關的法規,主要是老化、整體性老化評估、老化管理、實現老化分析、運轉執照、徵修條例等等。它大概有多少呢?目錄,光目錄兩面大概就有六頁,整個報告大概是這麼多。台電如果沒有去檢視,就像我們人身體健康如果沒去檢查,"},{"start":12456.391,"end":12456.691,"text":"案案案案案案案"},{"start":12479.734,"end":12486.399,"text":"委員會等22人擬具〈核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案〉案。然後要請了童子賢要當副召集人。然後要請了李燕澤當顧問。不管怎麼樣,倒是要回到你的專業,跟台電負責核電廠的專業。可還是不可?因為它已經40年了。都應該知道不是現在才要去檢核啦,而不是這個法通過之後再去評估,再去"},{"start":12507.081,"end":12507.101,"text":"案 。"},{"start":12534.4,"end":12557.138,"text":"原住民最重視的包括這個核廢料的儲存可不可以在現有的地方再開再儲存還有沒有空間當然因為你要弄到哪裡不可能啦我們也不會接受啦你要弄到哪裡大家都不會接受啦所以唯一的途徑對不對"},{"start":12559.697,"end":12566.204,"text":"現在屏東的他們希望能夠繼續研議啊對不對那你問他們可不可以在這邊蓋這個儲存場因為沒有啦沒有啦要不要可不可以蓋啊這個都要雙管齊下對不對"},{"start":12581.982,"end":12597.651,"text":"我的報告第六頁他有畫底線的地方其實我有說明其實我們重要的部分其實都有underline那跟委員說明請委員了解重點他已經40年了現在就要去做好處理"},{"start":12599.619,"end":12610.843,"text":"好謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員羅志強委員"},{"start":12627.679,"end":12635.403,"text":"請那個河安會主委還有我們的經濟部連次長跟台電曾董事長。好,我想先請主委,請問民進黨我們現在的政府2025非核家園轉彎了沒有?"},{"start":12652.469,"end":12679.699,"text":"明年會不會落實非核家園?把所有核能幹光?會不會?明年?目前核三廠今年7月27日停止運轉。明年5月17日二號機停止運轉。所以非核的這條船還是往前勇敢的開下去就對了?沒錯吧?我們想請教我們次長,經濟部次長。一樣嘛,非核家園沒有改變嘛,對不對?我們台電董事長。"},{"start":12682.084,"end":12701.134,"text":"那我想請教一下我們的主委我想今天應該很多人問過你核電有缺點但跟全人類滅絕無法相比減碳要到位不然人類會跟恐龍一樣滅絕主委你認同嗎"},{"start":12702.703,"end":12715.627,"text":"我可以理解我可以理解我告訴你不只要理解核安會主要是負責核能安全沒有關係你可以理解我告訴你這句話你也知道誰講的李遠哲講的市長這句話你認同嗎可以理解不錯請問標準答案來董事長你也是理解嘛對不對所有的能源使用都有4D性問題嗯"},{"start":12732.114,"end":12753.322,"text":"不錯啊 你的回答比另外兩個所以今天你是指我們的李遠哲我們的這個氣候委員會的顧問不是實地啦不是所謂地域性問題沒關係我還想請教你下一個問題啦請教你下一個問題事實上李遠哲的這一段話提出警訊"},{"start":12755.899,"end":12776.99,"text":"台灣我們作為地球公民的一份子我們一直在討論所謂能源缺不缺電的問題其實不只是缺不缺電的問題請問減碳重不重要 董事長減碳當然是重要的一個題目那請問我們的主委減碳重不重要重要今天李遠哲關切的是非常高度高層次的問題"},{"start":12778.493,"end":12802.511,"text":"那我要跟三位尤其我們台電董事長我想你應該知道這類似的觀點十年前馬總統就說過了嘛 對不對非核優於減碳啦因為減碳這個所謂氣候變遷可能是造成人類的一個重大的危機所以台灣也有個公民的義務要能夠加入所謂的對抗氣候變遷的這樣的一個公民的全球公民的行列嘛 對不對"},{"start":12803.601,"end":12820.99,"text":"所以馬總統其實已經是先知先覺了。我們要面對現在環境變遷的問題,這確實是個價值。沒錯啊,謝謝您。那現在有下一個問題問了,其實說真的我搞得我很亂啦。今天氣候變遷對社委會設在哪裡啊?設在哪裡?你講的是總統府要設的那個氣候變遷委員會?對啊,總統府啊,召集人是誰?"},{"start":12832.722,"end":12832.982,"text":"總統副召集人"},{"start":12846.226,"end":12872.717,"text":"的氣候變遷委員會除了總統以外召集人以外兩個副召集人童子賢已經是跟你已經尊尊的已經是哀求啦希望民進黨政府好好想想何能繼續飛河下去對台灣的所謂的一個威脅跟危害現在連你們氣候變遷委員會顧問他不只是顧問喔他是民進黨過去的神主牌李遠哲都出來講話了結果你這條恐龍之船還不轉彎"},{"start":12874.687,"end":12899.755,"text":"我真的是說真的還是要有這些高度啦今天在野黨說真的是為了國家好所以提出今天研議的這個法案是希望給今天台灣留一條路我也希望今天我們的行政官員可以秉持像李遠哲、童子賢這種所謂的我們講這個所謂的人類是否滅絕的一個高度的心啊"},{"start":12900.875,"end":12904.617,"text":"來看看我們過去檢討我們錯誤的能源政策。以上。好,謝謝。接下來是吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員、黃建豪委員、黃建豪委員、黃建豪委員、洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員、"},{"start":12927.386,"end":12939.191,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草"},{"start":13071.144,"end":13091.004,"text":"三、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正"},{"start":13101.345,"end":13105.689,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":13128.573,"end":13128.593,"text":"案。"},{"start":13159.508,"end":13165.37,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件案件案件案件案件"},{"start":13185.623,"end":13205.638,"text":"案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13219.554,"end":13219.574,"text":"案。"},{"start":13253.37,"end":13253.39,"text":"案。"},{"start":13298.245,"end":13323.054,"text":"案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13415.851,"end":13416.524,"text":"同理呀 同理呀"},{"start":13547.039,"end":13547.059,"text":"劉沛"},{"start":13549.177,"end":13563.287,"text":"關於今天的會議我們做如下的決定對於委員會質詢要求提供相關的資料或是為其答覆的部分我們請相關金官尽數以書面來做答覆那本期經過討論協商完之後認為這樣子的一個法案我們需要有更多的一個討論以讓這個法案能夠更趨的一個完整所以有關於核子反應器設施管制法我們另第其進行審查報告委員會今天的議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":13578.957,"end":13584.598,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":13610.312,"end":13610.332,"text":"案。"}]}},{"id":"16085","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16085","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ef83f7170d9d56c879b5fa2f296a9353428aaa308df9ea373a2f18ddeb85fb3ed5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-10","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-10T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T12:20:00+08:00","duration":13801,"影片長度":"03:50:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 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WEF發布的最新報告金融科技的發展趨勢重點由以下五個方向"},{"start":2363.881,"end":2387.558,"text":"人工智慧重要性日趨嚴重AI對於金融科技的影響可能從業務流程的優化到科物的直接互動到金融產業應用AI技術的法令遵循、資訊安全等全面性的影響ESG提升金融科技發展動能如綠能產業及氣候變遷項目的數位貸款、碳追蹤與核算、供應鏈追蹤等資產代幣化快速發展"},{"start":2388.499,"end":2412.287,"text":"比埃斯提出金融互聯網概念作為未來金融體系的願景資產代幣化將大幅減少冗長的資訊傳遞及清算過程提升更高效率可靠的服務刊注式的金融及開放金融持續成長開放銀行及開放金融可促進大規模資料共享推動業務模式金融商品創新"},{"start":2413.027,"end":2431.003,"text":"五、金融科技公司拓展B2B業務越來越多的金融科技公司將業務重心放在開發B2B而非直接向個人客戶提供服務二、我國金融科技推動的發展狀況具體做法如下一、推動創新實驗與雙軌機制金管會推動金融科技創新實驗金融業務事辦雙軌並行機制成果如下"},{"start":2439.583,"end":2448.732,"text":"一、創新實驗截至113年5月底即受理16件申請案已核准9件業務事辦共受理92件已核准79件"},{"start":2451.264,"end":2474.741,"text":"法規條式鬆綁部分根據國發會最新統計金管會鬆綁建樹為各部會次多推動開放金融開放銀行部分分3階段推動開放銀行政策第一階段27家金融機構及5家第三方服務公司參與第二階段17家銀行與1家TSP業者共計24個合作案經金管會核准上線"},{"start":2475.891,"end":2496.802,"text":"三、第三階段開放項目包括存款、信用卡、貸款、支付、手機門號轉帳等五種業務種類共計35項開放證券部分截至113年5月抵止共有16家證券期貨業者3家TSP業者完成串接是鼓勵金融業應用AI技術部分我們發布了"},{"start":2497.282,"end":2511.407,"text":"金融業運用AI之核心原則及政策也發布了《金融業運用AI指引》國內金融業根據本會的調查我國金融業及周邊單位應用AI在金融業部分銀行使用AI的比率為74%"},{"start":2514.008,"end":2537.216,"text":"其次為受請公司62以及慘險公司50%五推動資料共享金融機構間資料共享我們在110年發布金融機構資料共享指引繼有90家金融機構依上開指引辦理新增資資料共享跨機構資料共享部分預計今年底完成修訂金融機構資料共享資料指引"},{"start":2538.196,"end":2544.222,"text":"6.成立金融科技園區協助金融科技業者發展招募新創會員截至113年5月底,園區共招募169家來自於35個國家地區的新創團隊進駐。"},{"start":2553.46,"end":2573.421,"text":"業者育成與輔導共計創新中心輔導72件、監理門診236場再來培育金融科技人才以及促進國際合作﹐截至目前已與英國、澳洲、法國等9個官方駐台辦事處簽訂MOU並累積37個國家合作夥伴建立合作關係"},{"start":2574.662,"end":2587.322,"text":"但我國現在金融科技發展仍面臨下面以下四個挑戰第一個,金融科技人才不足台灣雖有良好的教育基礎及科技培訓機構但金融科技人才缺口仍大"},{"start":2588.41,"end":2614.251,"text":"主要因為我國高科技產業具全球競爭優勢企業獲利良好具吸引科技人才流入之優勢二、監理資源應該與時俱進隨著創新商品服務快速發展社會期待及國際趨勢促使各主要國家金融主管機關逐漸擴大業務範圍然政府機關之組織及員額增加人受限於法規預算人員分配等多項因素無法同步成長"},{"start":2616.077,"end":2632.353,"text":"金融科技生態圈需進一步擴展．台灣金融業發展雖然成熟但國內市場規模相對有限競爭激烈需加強金融機構間與金融科技公司間金融產業與其他產業間之合作進一步推動金融科技生態圈的發展"},{"start":2633.254,"end":2645.399,"text":"降低同質化競爭壓力,是新創業者需要更多的協助,金融科技公司多數新創業者雖具有技術但可能在制度建立、發展策略等方面仍需輔導與支持。"},{"start":2647.301,"end":2664.011,"text":"金管會未來努力的方向金管會推動金融科技之方向希望在風險可控的前提之下讓金融創新有更大的容錯空間以增加市場發展的可能性未來將推動以下措施鼓勵金融科技發展與扶植金融科技產業一"},{"start":2666.795,"end":2678.499,"text":"將偵測金融市場發展與創新處為專責單位金管會決定在首鼠架構下先偵測專責單位金融市場發展與創新處強化金融科技發展促進創新實驗與業務事辦推動永續金融鬆綁法令開創金融與科技發展契機二"},{"start":2686.822,"end":2706.912,"text":"設置金融行動創新法規調適平台、下設科技創新工作小組讓金融科技產學界可及時提出有關金融科技政策及法規的建議意見經由金管會加速評估、快速回應3、研議放寬金融科技業務事辦範圍我們將修正銀行保險與證券期貨商業業務事辦範圍大幅放寬可以進行"},{"start":2710.594,"end":2730.668,"text":"創新事辦之範圍將由現行核准業務項目的擴展以及法令所列有其他金主管之間核准者外開放與金管會行政規則、工會自律規範、周邊單位規章等規範範圍內提出相應風險管理機制或配套下針對各項金融活動創新或科技應用"},{"start":2731.124,"end":2755.366,"text":"均可申請業務事辦．並鼓勵金融業與國外金融科技業者共同合作事辦．4強化金融監理沙盒的落地機制．辦理委外研究範圍包含沿西各國監理沙盒之涵蓋範圍．運作方式、落地機制．今晚會將評估調整監理沙盒機制．增加創新實驗案件．並提升實驗案件落地之可行性．"},{"start":2756.147,"end":2762.534,"text":"五、多方面扶植新創產業將持續優化金融科技創新園區功能提供新創輔導資源等多項活動"},{"start":2766.102,"end":2791.776,"text":"推動實體世界資產化代幣化工作的推動．期望透過該項工作．帶動生態系的形成．促進金融業發掘商機．規劃未來數位轉型之策略方向專法納管．促進市場健全發展．未來將推動虛擬資產管理專法立法．以有效納管市場行為．同時促進金融科技及VSAP產業的健全發展"},{"start":2793.61,"end":2806.976,"text":"8.優化金融科技人才培育機制,未來規劃培訓認證內容並推出主題式培訓課程以迅速因應國際發展及市場需求。9."},{"start":2806.976,"end":2812.658,"text":"持續完善資料共享機制,促進客戶資料合理適用,創建金融生態圈。10."},{"start":2812.658,"end":2814.238,"text":"持續推動金融科技發展路徑圖2.0。"},{"start":2816.482,"end":2843.028,"text":"金管會將持續透過各種措施促進金融業數位轉型升級及扶植金融科技業者發展並收集相關金融科技生態系業者之意見與國外之做法營造友善金融科技創新之環境發展貼近民眾需求的創新金融商品或服務優化客戶體驗及豐富場景金融落實普惠金融創造金融服務新價值"},{"start":2843.968,"end":2847.673,"text":"以上報告敬請各位委員指教並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":2867.25,"end":2881.572,"text":"主席、各位委員及與會各機關代表今天應邀列席貴委員會針對創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技產業進行專題報告緊就數位發展部業務部分向各位報告"},{"start":2882.97,"end":2907.192,"text":"金融科技產業的發展．不僅包括金融業者的數位轉型．好包括新創業者應用數位科技於金融領域．其中數位貨幣之推展由中央銀行主導．虛擬通貨之管理與輔導由金管會主管．數發部則是負責第三方支付服務業的管理與輔導．並透過鼓勵數位導入與創新應用．賦能於金融科技產業"},{"start":2908.493,"end":2927.228,"text":"數位發展部成立以後,擔任非金融事業之第三方支付服務業的目的事業主管機關。我們從以下三個方向來強化第三方支付服務業的管理及輔導。第一,我們建立能量登錄制度。由於第三方支付"},{"start":2930.051,"end":2951.422,"text":"由於第三方支付經常被詐騙集團拿來當作詐騙的工具所以數法部在112年7月啟動第三方支付服務能量登錄制度要求申請業者提出洗錢方誌及法遵聲明書使能登錄並審查其人力配置與素質、時機、執行管理能力、財務狀況等項目並與金管會達成部會聯防共識"},{"start":2958.337,"end":2984.087,"text":"為先完成能量登錄之第三方支付業者銀行在其開戶時就不會受理另外,我們也修訂了第三方支付服務業防治洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法第五之一條第三方支付服務業因依本部之指示之程序之方式申請辦理洗錢防治及服務能量登錄其經審查通過者由本部通知並引以公告"},{"start":2984.844,"end":3006.632,"text":"那本來有一萬多家的企業他在進行工商登錄的時候他們是有列入第三方支付的業務但是直到113年7月3日止我們在實施這個能量登錄制度以後送件生存登錄的業者總共只有82家然後通過審查的業者總共就62家所以我們這樣子就是讓這些"},{"start":3009.932,"end":3029.554,"text":"想要進行那個第三方支付的業者就是有一個依循然後有那個縮減我們那個管理的範圍那第二我們會落實法尊數法部已訂定第三方支付服務業防治洗錢指引手冊及其範本並提供"},{"start":3031.109,"end":3056.502,"text":"內政部護證系統及吉保公司實質受益人資料庫協助業者進行法遵業及落實客戶身份確認 以強化第三方支付業者落實洗錢防治及打擊指控辦法的規定。我們要求業者落實審查客戶網站的義務以降低第三方支付業"},{"start":3057.683,"end":3080.429,"text":"被利用於博弈洗錢、詐欺等不法犯罪之工具也將研發相關網頁偵測工具讓業者對於賣方客戶進行網頁定期偵測異常情形防犯業者於申請第三方支付服務後偷偷轉型為博弈平台或是販賣特殊商品另外,為協助第三方支付業者落實洗錢防治﹐"},{"start":3082.694,"end":3109.745,"text":"防治洗錢聯盟．數法部憲政規劃建置第三方支付服務業產業聯防平臺規劃由第三方支付業者上傳涉嫌違法之賣方客戶資訊將疑似洗錢或滋恐交易之名單資訊上傳平臺系統數法部協助建置平臺預計於113年年底前上線供第三方支付業者自律使用鼓勵業者聯防"},{"start":3111.462,"end":3129.445,"text":"第三點,我們建置查詢平臺。訴發部已經建置第三方支付服務業虛擬賬號查詢平臺,彙整能量登錄公告業者虛擬賬號、銀行代碼、識別碼、主要聯絡人、電話、傳證以及email等,建立第三方支付業者與"},{"start":3130.906,"end":3154.852,"text":"檢警調快速溝通管道可協助檢警調單位更快速查找虛擬賬號所屬的第三方支付業者。這個平台自113年3月上線後檢警調單位已可由平台直接查詢並通知以完成登錄之第三方支付業者。如果民眾遭到詐騙報案檢警"},{"start":3157.552,"end":3171.601,"text":"調單位在確認虛擬帳號所屬第三方支付業者後可加速通知銀行捐存受詐民眾的款項整體流程由原本的7到30天已經縮短到1至3天截至113年7月3日"},{"start":3174.842,"end":3189.811,"text":"累計的查詢量已經有19940筆平台上線後縮短查詢時間已有效協助檢警調單位辦案加速圈存受詐款項降低民眾損失另外為鼓勵金融業"},{"start":3191.705,"end":3215.692,"text":"金融科技相關服務業者積極投入創新科技研究應用藉由AI領航計劃的補助與輔導機制提供資源鏈結協助潛力廠商所研發產品或解決方案成功落地商轉及擴散國內場域解決產業問題例如面對詐騙猖獗需要由金融科技業者運用AI開發防詐"},{"start":3217.759,"end":3237.085,"text":"打炸之工具本部AI領航企劃補助臺北富邦銀行臺灣大哥大以及網威智慧等業者將AI應用於金融場景防炸總而言之數法部透過對於第三方支付業者的管理與輔導建立安全可信賴的第三方支付"},{"start":3238.362,"end":3252.07,"text":"服務業生態並鼓勵業者創新開發將數位科技應用於金融領域共同促進健全金融科技創新應用發展以上報告 敬請指教謝謝各位委員的聆聽與指教"},{"start":3289.122,"end":3310.482,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請金管會彭主委還有央行的楊總裁有請彭主委楊總裁主委你好總裁你好主委我首先問你兩三個問題第一個我想我們都知道現在台股差不多24000點上下那"},{"start":3315.63,"end":3325.306,"text":"因為下半年開始變數會比較大因為美國大選還有美國即將要降息主委你有什麼看法?"},{"start":3327.108,"end":3354.976,"text":"報告委員陳蒙林上次有詢問過我們金管會是市場主管機關我們對市場會密切關注剛剛你提到確實我們有很多的外界會提到就是說這兩個因素是影響台股一個因素我想我們還是會密切的關注密切關注那你認為對我們的整個基本面會不會受到有一些就是因為大選啊因為它變數很大"},{"start":3356.696,"end":3364.379,"text":"包括降息因您在金融業您的專業您有沒有什麼想法跟看法?另外我再請教"},{"start":3385.373,"end":3407.205,"text":"那個主委因為工商協定會這個吳東亮董事長他不是有帶一些企業尤其是金融業去拜訪你那因為他們當然也希望說這個金融能夠整併來壯大整個金融的產業那那個"},{"start":3408.376,"end":3435.89,"text":"彭主任,你有什麼看法呢?是,包委員其實昨天工商協定會確實他有帶領在11位的李監事來針對他們的建言白皮書有關金融產業的建言部分提出非常廣泛的意見其實剛剛委員您剛剛指示的有關金融整併只是其中一小部分他們討論的範圍非常非常廣這個報告書我想工商協定會他在裡面的這些資料應該都是公開的"},{"start":3436.57,"end":3436.71,"text":"我來請教楊總裁來"},{"start":3455.445,"end":3481.963,"text":"總裁我請教因為卓榮泰院長說考量台灣近年來整個經濟穩定成長再加上政府必須要拼經濟因此明年軍工教薪資的待遇將往合理的方向來調升當然同時也希望民間企業能夠更進加薪總裁主計總數曾估算軍工教"},{"start":3483.646,"end":3511.125,"text":"每條薪1%差不多要差不多70億左右的預算條薪4%差不多要匡列將近300億左右上下請問總裁對於行政院條薪你有什麼樣的看法我覺得如果說政府第一個經濟成長如果說穩定的成長這是第一個第二個政府的財稅"},{"start":3513.221,"end":3523.23,"text":"所以說他足夠來應付這個我覺得這兩個如果加起來的話那應該就是合理要加薪因為齁這一段時間講實在話物價通膨那是那當然也就是說社會上沒錯"},{"start":3530.296,"end":3544.433,"text":"過去所調的這些薪水都給通膨吃掉所以說很多民眾其實他們沒有受到一點好處尤其民間業者有的企業是沒有加薪但是"},{"start":3545.354,"end":3569.171,"text":"政府當然希望能夠做一個帶動起頭的作用沒有錯那現在已經7月初了卓院長的指示相關部會是不是要啟動明年金工教整個調薪的作業差不多7月底會定案那我請問總裁你認為這次調薪是考慮目前整個物價上漲的弧度所以說做出調薪的比例"},{"start":3569.851,"end":3593.886,"text":"這樣的一個決策嗎?因您的看法我想這個也是其中的因素之一不過我還是剛剛在講的就是說第一個如果說我們經濟成長穩定成長然後第二個你的稅收我們的稅收如果說稅收兩方面都往正的那如果說這個都這些三個因素都加起來的話那應該總裁說說你也贊成應該要"},{"start":3596.528,"end":3614.641,"text":"要適度的再講是是是沒有錯是好那這個總裁因為臺灣消費者物價指數CPI已經連續三年喔都超過百分之二對於外界習慣你百分之二作為通膨警戒線上個禮拜財政組總執行時你說臺灣應該要採取彈性的物價穩定定義比較妥適但是本席一直認為說這個通膨警戒"},{"start":3625.729,"end":3651.406,"text":"成為變動指數政府跟民間預測機構各說各話那我請問總裁彈性通能警戒線的CPI適合作為調心參考的依據嗎一您看我跟委員報告當然以目前的情況來看因為現在就是說陳柔委員在講就是說我們連續已經是三年都是百分之二"},{"start":3652.027,"end":3657.962,"text":"所以現在你看看各個國家當前的一個目標就是要把這個通膨"},{"start":3659.485,"end":3688.119,"text":"就要把它控制在2%甚至這以下那至於我在講的就是說是small open就是說我們的小額開放的經濟體呢要比較有彈性這個是屬於比較中長期的當然我現在就是在講在強調的就是說因為我們目前呢是就連續三年都超過2%所以應該目前是以控制在2%目前的工作呢是以控制在2%以下作為主要的目標"},{"start":3689.019,"end":3693.022,"text":"總裁,媒體報導目前籌編明年的整個預算在政府財政狀況方面稅收年年超徵"},{"start":3717.521,"end":3728.209,"text":"今年稅收表現也不錯對於軍工教加薪將是有力來支撐今年二月足跡總署公布2023年薪資統計的一個結果因為去年通膨率達到2.5%創下近15年來次高第二高"},{"start":3736.836,"end":3756.45,"text":"那物價漲幅吃掉薪水不論是每個人每個月經常性的薪資或總薪資都呈現負成長那我請問總裁你認為明年金工教條新會不會依舊出現物價漲幅吃掉薪水甚至於薪水負成長的這種情況"},{"start":3759.472,"end":3784.749,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說軍工教的調薪跟基本工資的調薪它對於物價的影響比較小因為基本工資的調漲會涉及到你的那個就是說我們中小企業這些的商家他把那個價格把工資轉嫁到那個價格去"},{"start":3785.769,"end":3811.266,"text":"那軍工教的這個比較不會他就沒有這樣的一個沒有這樣的狀況所以他的一個impact他的一個衝擊呢會比較小很小比較小那個總裁甚至有學者啊譬如說現況考良明年軍工教調薪恐怕陷入了薪資物價螺旋式的上漲這種惡性的循環發生所謂的通膨螺旋那我請問總裁你認為"},{"start":3813.487,"end":3836.337,"text":"這樣的紀律會不會發生?我想他講的就是說是在一個比較比較特殊的情況像歐洲他也是也就也在提到這個ECB也提到這樣的一個概念那事實上我總覺得是在學理上是有這樣的一個概率不過就目前來講的話臺灣應該是應該我個人的判斷應該是比較不會發生"},{"start":3842.099,"end":3863.849,"text":"我們希望不會發生的。央行透過指定銀行選定特定範圍的店家和民眾準備在安全可控原則下來進行小規模試點來逐步打造央行數位貨幣CBDC的生態體系那我請問總裁維持傳統貨幣體系雙層式的架構的運作模式你認為對於央行數位貨幣生態體系朝向普及化"},{"start":3871.812,"end":3897.523,"text":"有沒有幫助我想這是我們的目標當然就是說我們希望是在現行的傳統的一個支付體系裡面CPTC的加入能夠更讓這個體系能夠更普及化然後更健全對貨幣的體系能夠更穩定這是我們的目標當然我們現在還是在往前的來推進"},{"start":3899.224,"end":3916.598,"text":"總裁,你說如果經過審慎評估認為有推行四點計畫的必要逐步來打造CBDC生態體系那我請問四點計畫是不是有規劃找出客戶隱私權一律的模式?對對對,這個在我們都會有考慮到,我們都會考慮到"},{"start":3921.041,"end":3948.836,"text":"因為四年計畫到底有沒有規劃防詐交易的這些模式是 這個都會有都會納進去因為我認為這個很重要因為你不要因為現在詐騙到處都是而且很嚴重那這個當然我們事前有規劃有想到的一定要事前去籌劃去杜絕好不好是好 謝謝謝謝您的副委員的質詢接著我們請嚴匡衡委員質詢"},{"start":3959.636,"end":3964.647,"text":"主席、各位練習官員、主席我想先請央行楊總裁要請楊總裁"},{"start":3976.781,"end":3999.29,"text":"總裁早CBDC就是數位版的國家貨幣那就是說由我們中央銀行來創建一種數位形式的法定貨幣透過發行跟流通那相較於我們習慣以紙鈔或者是硬幣的方式來進行交易那我想"},{"start":4001.831,"end":4012.543,"text":"數位貨幣不僅僅只是一個對傳統貨幣的一種技術革新那也是一種對貨幣體系本質的一個重新思考但是民眾現在對於數位貨幣"},{"start":4015.29,"end":4035.197,"text":"有很大的一個距離感因為甚至於說就是懷疑這是不是又是一種詐騙的手法因為我們台灣所處的環境這個詐騙輸出變成一個非常在國際上這個詐騙的手法台灣變成是一個輸出的一個國度那這實在是很不好"},{"start":4037.678,"end":4054.008,"text":"請教楊總裁你認為說發行數位貨幣的動機跟目標是什麼那動機呢當然有兩個重點就是說我們是不是能夠降低金融交易的成本那民眾的成本那提升金融體系的安全性跟穩定性就這兩個部分 對"},{"start":4055.449,"end":4083.096,"text":"這是我們的目標啦當然就是說我們CBDC要來朝這個方向來走就是這個就是我們的目標第一個要好用第二個要能夠降低成本第三個能夠增加創新這是我們的目標啦那當然這個目標要達成恐怕也要花一點時間包括剛剛委員講得很好就是說這個大家的認知也不是說很清楚而且恐怕這個就是一個詐騙的一個工具"},{"start":4085.036,"end":4111.937,"text":"這個都是我們必須要去溝通的溝通的一個項目要透過說明啦要透過說明溝通的一種能夠深切能夠了解委員說得沒有錯再提到就是說你正在跟數位部這個洽談合作就是政府機關來開發數位券那現在基本上都是已經萬事俱備了那你們評估的結果是什麼時候要來做這樣子的一個發行"},{"start":4113.898,"end":4140.373,"text":"是,我是不是請我的同事來回答這個問題,可以嗎?好,很快現在我們報告目前我們跟這個數位發展部在洽談合作的計畫但原則上如果說整個的行程順利的話應該是在今年底或明年初可能會請數位發展部這邊找一個相關的部門先來做一個試營運今年底或明年初這樣"},{"start":4142.314,"end":4160.27,"text":"我再請教總裁CBDC你說它不是國際競賽也不是說先發就有優勢但是你也提到說沒有時間表那你可不可以更明確一點你的報告裡面"},{"start":4164.451,"end":4186.361,"text":"你要告訴我們什麼?CPTC什麼時候在台灣可以上路?我想是這樣就是說CPTC這是全球其他的國家也都是在試驗當然我們也就是說台灣在做這樣的一個試驗的工程的時候我們也要看看其他國家它是不是比較先進"},{"start":4188.302,"end":4194.985,"text":"有哪些我們可以來學習的CBDC到最後我們到最後的那個part就是說在wholesale在那個就是說它的那個批發型的那個部分它的功能會更大那這個就是說你要看看國際發展的趨勢是怎麼樣因為它會到時候會cross-border就是說會那個什麼區域的一個跨境的一個交換"},{"start":4216.694,"end":4220.772,"text":"那這個就是說也要看看國際發展的趨勢是怎麼樣"},{"start":4222.225,"end":4249.099,"text":"所以也就不是說你來發展那你自己在那邊自己做自己做外面好像也沒有就是說進展的時候自己做自己在那邊試驗好像功能也不是很好所以我們要來看看國際發展的將來是不是要花費更多的錢更多的預算來做大量的一個技術跟人力的投入才有辦法這個技術大概也是要花多少錢這個還"},{"start":4252.08,"end":4253.561,"text":"來財經公司來跟我們說一下"},{"start":4281.345,"end":4308.012,"text":"不是啊,應該你要告訴我們就是說CPTC如果未來上路之後那以你的設計一年需要花多少的預算、人力來做這個整個技術的設置呢?我想呢,報告委員現在到目前還沒有做這樣很精細的一個規劃還沒有,為什麼?因為你還是在試驗的階段嘛如果說我已經確定了"},{"start":4308.692,"end":4324.097,"text":"我就是往前推了說那時候就已經就是說你的整個規模是怎麼樣你每年要編多少預算這個都是要按照那個什麼預算的程序下去編的所以呢到目前為止還沒有還沒有要做啦對對對現在是還是在試驗的階段啦"},{"start":4329.699,"end":4331.861,"text":"所以還沒有到達委員現在所講的"},{"start":4360.139,"end":4387.792,"text":"那想要請教總裁就是說我們央行有沒有預估什麼時候會降息?這個到目前的民眾最關心的?對當然當然我還是在以前我也就是說在回答這個問題的時候我就說我們的情況跟美國的情況是不太一樣但是就是說整個降息的這是整個如果說是全球都是在降息他spill over他"},{"start":4388.956,"end":4408.24,"text":"他就是說是外溢到臺灣的情況來當然我的意思就是說我們臺灣的一個情況升息降息都要看國際的情況是怎麼樣我們內部我們臺灣目前自己的一個情況是怎麼然後是由理事會來決定到現在為止都還沒有這樣的一個規劃"},{"start":4418.26,"end":4444.299,"text":"這個房貸族壓力非常大當然我想報告委員就是說利息這個價格它影響的層面也不是只有房地產它也會影響到我們的企業也會影響到我們的個人這些都會所以整個利息的一個利率的決策不是只有光看房地產"},{"start":4446.564,"end":4449.146,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝楊總裁我們再請金管會主委有請彭主委"},{"start":4458.132,"end":4482.317,"text":"委員好 彭主任你好那今晚會的報告裡面說台灣為了運營無現金社會的這個到來所以朝向2025年要達到這種行動支付90%的目標啦 對不對那這邊有提到說要成立金融市場管理處創新啦創新管理處"},{"start":4483.337,"end":4490.901,"text":"那這樣子在金融科技園區臺灣的金融科技園區跟馬來西亞金融科技協會簽訂了MOU馬來西亞的數位經濟局舉辦這個臺灣金融科技發表日然後加速媒合這個產創的一個商機"},{"start":4504.408,"end":4523.444,"text":"這個對接當地的生態園區域的資源然後拓展臺灣金融科技海外版圖那請教主委這項MOU的內容能不能時間有限這很簡單的說一下這點可不可以請我們那個那個我們負責規劃中規處的同仁跟委員做個說明謝謝拜託一下時間"},{"start":4526.095,"end":4536.351,"text":"是跟委員報告那個是我們創新園區跟這個馬來西亞這邊所簽署的我們這邊沒有沒有掌握他們的那個簽署的內容我們會後可以再跟他要"},{"start":4537.146,"end":4554.101,"text":"好那資料會後再補充給我謝謝我們會再補充資料給委員金融科技會帶來更高效更便捷的一個金融服務同時也會促進這個金融市場的一個競爭跟創新行動支付、虛擬銀行、P2P、網路借貸等等這些"},{"start":4557.523,"end":4575.831,"text":"這個法規跟監管制度上面除了提供更多的便利跟支持但是在法規跟監管的部分也必須要更加的謹慎所以你現在你認為現行的金融科技發展與創新這個實驗條例有沒有需要再做調整"},{"start":4576.371,"end":4576.851,"text":"主席,麻煩企業行楊總裁"},{"start":4606.124,"end":4607.005,"text":"有請楊總裁吳委員早楊總裁我們今天一直在談的這個數位貨幣他的定義是怎麼樣"},{"start":4621.54,"end":4636.854,"text":"數位貨幣就是說把我們最簡單的就是說把我們現在目前的這是要兩個層次的第一個我們把我們的現在的現金把它數位化"},{"start":4638.061,"end":4652.702,"text":"那現金數位化之後那個現金還要不要再發行?那當然如果說假設假設他我們CPTC零售型的CPTC把它開始發行的時候當然我們的現金還是依然要發行"},{"start":4653.683,"end":4670.491,"text":"所以你印出來的現金存起來假設我印了一兆的現金存起來然後我相對應一兆的數位貨幣是不是這樣子不是這樣子而是說我們的現金也是在流通那數位貨幣我知道當然雙軌現金可以流通但是數位貨幣的印行後面"},{"start":4679.074,"end":4702.341,"text":"所以要有實體貨幣?對,對,我問得很好就是說事實上呢我們的現金基本上銀行現在所跟中央銀行領取現金的這個都是要透過他的存款準備金那邊去多轉的所以也就是說我們的CBDC呢它的背後就是存款準備金"},{"start":4703.464,"end":4718.092,"text":"喔 要存款準備金那這樣的話呢我要發出去的時候呢我的他用存款準備金來跟我互換跟現在的現金的那個什麼的流通是一樣的沒有給他的現金你央行要準備著嘛要存放著嘛不然的話你"},{"start":4718.712,"end":4736.281,"text":"我的意思是說你的數位貨幣後面要錨定在現金上面嗎?現的現鈔上面嗎?委員這個也是一個問題不過我再更進一步的講事實上我們的現金以前我們都一直在報告我們的現金它背後都是有準備"},{"start":4737.694,"end":4758.624,"text":"那我們的準備是什麼?我們準備是兩種,第一個就是黃金,第二個就是我們的外匯存底那所以呢,也就是說我們的現金的發行是採始祖的準備那始祖的準備呢,我有黃金,我有外匯存底做我發行現金總裁,這個我了解,但是問題是像現在美國他已經不這樣採"},{"start":4761.125,"end":4777.479,"text":"他應該他不是100%他已經沒有跟隨著他儲存的黃金這支板去印鈔還是100%我跟你講中國更嚴重喔中國現在有一個名詞叫做無毛印鈔啊沒有毛錠啊隨便他印啊這通貨即將要大幅膨脹的一種"},{"start":4780.038,"end":4804.679,"text":"貨幣要巨額貶值的一種前兆啊我跟委員報告台灣目前還是百分之百發行準備那我的意思是說所以這個邏輯這樣推起來我認定目前的數位貨幣要錨定在我所有的現金上假設我發行一兆的數位貨幣我要儲存有一兆的現金嘛當然你說那個現金我可以不要用現金我可以用黃金我可以用債券這我同意"},{"start":4805.56,"end":4814.623,"text":"那就是要矛盾總共的貨幣額沒有隨便增加應該是這樣的概念所以數位貨幣不是數字貨幣啦因為中國現在實驗數字貨幣啊他連這個實體的東西完全都不要啦"},{"start":4824.487,"end":4849.986,"text":"是不是會有這個問題所以是數位貨幣是數字貨幣要弄清楚有些時候他們是習慣用數字貨幣那這個可能當然也會有些時候會搞不清楚因為這個就是說就像一個外國的名字在翻譯的時候在翻譯的時候有的是翻這樣有的是翻這樣也沒有一個共同的標準"},{"start":4850.586,"end":4855.346,"text":"那現在另外一個問題你要發行數位貨幣使用者對於"},{"start":4856.704,"end":4881.959,"text":"像我們這個最直接的一般在社會上活動的人在用錢的時候你要尊重沒有能力使用數位貨幣或是沒有意願使用數位貨幣的人這個如何保障他們的權益沒錯啊所以我才會就是說在如果說我們是決定這個CPTC也要推出去了之後呢事實上現金還是會留存的我就說"},{"start":4882.879,"end":4909.13,"text":"我舉例喔已經有我的朋友去日本觀光回來跟我講說日本有的店不能用現金了全部都是要用Pay的他覺得非常不方便坦白講很不爽啦那我一直跟他講說暫時安慰他說那這樣子的店你就不要去消費嘛所以他去日本觀光的時候他能夠選擇的店家就變少了當然會影響到他的權益啊"},{"start":4909.99,"end":4910.01,"text":"對啦"},{"start":4940.45,"end":4968.35,"text":"委員講的事實上我們也都考慮到了所以這個才會我們就說在我們推動的過程當中呢我們是漸進式的啦也就是說委員講的沒有錯這個就是我的習慣如果說大家的習慣都已經都改變的話呢那好那CPTC這個可以就是說單獨黃那個現金呢他就會慢慢慢慢的退到退到旁邊去了"},{"start":4969.19,"end":4984.409,"text":"我們擔心的是當現有的貨幣慢慢推到旁邊去的時候不能夠為了多數人可以使用CDBC數位貨幣就去忽略那少數人不願意使用數位貨幣的權益"},{"start":4986.732,"end":5011.468,"text":"我想就中央銀行的一個立場來講的話這個我們會考量我們不會用強迫式的自由的經濟體系不能用強迫式的我跟您提醒我再講一個數字當然數字不見得很準確中國的觀光客據入境人數講大概少掉九成多了那當然理由很多了"},{"start":5012.268,"end":5028.954,"text":"其中有一個很重要的理由是他在那個地方支付系統外國的觀光客怎麼會用你中國的支付系統結果去了中國中國的店家全部都是用這種電子支付啊全部都是網用手機掃啊啊使得觀光客在那邊沒辦法消費啊"},{"start":5030.854,"end":5054.785,"text":"這也是使得他的觀光客大幅下葬的一個重要的原因這個我是希望說是無論是金管會或是無論是央行無論是財政部在考慮這些事情的時候要面面俱到我們贊成你去發展但是同時必須要保留不願意使用的人他的權益不讓有一天說九成的人都已經要用數位貨幣了你那一成的人你自己該死或是讓店家給你加錢"},{"start":5056.703,"end":5071.115,"text":"這樣子的心態是不能接受的我覺得委員講的都沒有錯我們也有考量到這一點所以我們就說我們的推動是漸進式的好那最後再跟請教一個事情2019年的8月15號我們境外資金匯回專法規定"},{"start":5076.019,"end":5091.744,"text":"綁的時間是5年嘛那到今年的8月5年就期滿了那當然有一些資金已經投資廠商的有一些投資製造業的有一些資金已經用到哪邊去了但是還有一部分的資金喔解禁之後它可以進入不動產市場"},{"start":5094.586,"end":5118.101,"text":"我想我跟委員報告針對這個議題事實上我們也有發布新聞稿去說明基本上到目前為止還沒有動用的是1380億那這個它是要分三年那分三年以後它才能夠分三年的話大概一年大概400多億那400多億它可以投資國內外"},{"start":5120.242,"end":5146.559,"text":"他可以投資國內外所以這也就是說這個400多億也不是說全部他都會到房地產去他是會分散的他的投資因為投資的管道他也可以實質投資啊他也可以金融投資啊股票啊他也可以到國外去啊這都可以啊也不是說他這個400多億所以意思說你不是很擔心就對了我覺得也應該就是說他是分散的當時的規劃就有考慮到這一點"},{"start":5149.241,"end":5178.141,"text":"好謝謝您的說明麻煩請你回座請金管會彭主委有請彭主委你好彭主委中國的金融巨變我看迫在眉睫尤其是昨天美國共和黨的黨綱裡面已經規定如果川普當選之後對中國要什麼樣的動作這裡面當然包括香港那所以現在有一些西方的這些金融業者在香港準備要"},{"start":5179.245,"end":5179.266,"text":"到"},{"start":5180.379,"end":5210.159,"text":"所以南京就要出逃啦講好第一點說是要轉到別的地方啦我覺得台灣應該是一個有機會可以吸引的地方我們能不能夠構築一個比較好的環境來去爭取這一個機會呢我們正在研究這個我們增加我們誘因的這樣一個機制在我們整個未來建構成為資產管理中心一個很重要的點那這個速度要快喔因為我看這個巨變如果速度如果沒有如果假設川普當選的話這個巨變搞不好半年一年就來了"},{"start":5210.82,"end":5211.42,"text":"謝謝吳秉潤委員質詢接著我們請賴世寶委員質詢"},{"start":5249.362,"end":5255.367,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請楊總裁我先請教一下喔現在股市天天漲天天漲這個外界大家都知道嘛這個股市漲房市就更是漲"},{"start":5276.568,"end":5285.785,"text":"這個你會不會擔心這個股市賺到錢轉到房市來又帶動房市的新一波的上漲會不會擔心這個事情"},{"start":5288.555,"end":5308.872,"text":"我想委員所講的這個都是有可能啦那基於就是說是一個行政院所推出來的一個健全房地產方案我想這個是也是大家要共同各部會要共同要去注意密切注意的事情"},{"start":5309.983,"end":5320.593,"text":"我們會密切注意特別就是說從去年8月以後到目前為止到我們的第一季我們也都是隨時在密切的注意當中"},{"start":5331.784,"end":5335.407,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說通膨的這個議題慢慢它是緩和下來了它是緩和下來了如果說我們是從這個CPI"},{"start":5359.05,"end":5377.949,"text":"我想我跟委員報告當然就是說我們前三年都有超過2%不過我們如果說我們來看我們的core CPI就是核心CPI現在核心CPI已經是慢慢的都已經降到2%以下了"},{"start":5379.823,"end":5391.848,"text":"所以我可以講一句話說央行不排除進一步的對於通貨的緊縮的一個做法有可能"},{"start":5394.925,"end":5413.633,"text":"委員如果說按照委員他你的想法的話呢你的解讀的話呢我想每一個人都可以解讀啦不過如果說從中央銀行的立場我們要來說我們要說我們密切注意我們滾動式的檢討我們要該做的時候呢我們要該做"},{"start":5419.117,"end":5441.699,"text":"這個中央銀行的職責就是金融穩定嘛那金融穩定我也一直在講就是說這個房價房價事實上我們是觀察我們是密切注意房價但是房價不是在我們的中央銀行法的一個經營目標裡面我們中央銀行法的經營目標是什麼是金融穩定"},{"start":5442.279,"end":5444.241,"text":"現在房市有沒有泡沫的危機?有沒有?有沒有?"},{"start":5472.323,"end":5498.486,"text":"我跟委員報告我們觀察兩個指標第一個指標就是說NPLNPL就是一個待賬率但是待賬率是很低很好啦NPLNPL是很好但是一般都認為說他是落後指標他是落後指標所以我們要更精進我們做什麼呢我們做Straight Test"},{"start":5499.363,"end":5518.721,"text":"我們做壓力測試基本上都通過了是吧壓力測試我們在去年的我們在3月的時候理監事會的時候我們就有向理事報告我們6月份的時候我們理監事會的時候我們也有跟理事報告"},{"start":5520.168,"end":5542.386,"text":"那到目前為止呢我們認為就是說我們如果說它發生巨變的時候呢我們的銀行體系還能夠承受它的一個我問你今天題目啊這個銀行數位貨幣啊這個能不能有個時間表什麼時候可以正式上路說"},{"start":5548.927,"end":5560.069,"text":"我跟委員報告,事實上我們到目前為止還是在往前推動往前進步你從2019年就開始推動了,到現在你還股不股不股,這個要謹慎一個貨幣的改革必須要謹慎"},{"start":5567.971,"end":5577.335,"text":"我只能回答說在我們可看見的未來現金還是會存在的"},{"start":5587.959,"end":5603.485,"text":"你至少可以找一個很大聲的結論我只能這樣說啊因為如果說那很久很久以後的事情我覺得我沒有那個vision我沒有那樣的那個天眼通至少你可以講一句話吧那個總裁在楊金龍任內絕對不會沒有現金對對對這個我可以保證在我的任內現金還是會留存"},{"start":5613.729,"end":5614.369,"text":"這個虛擬貨幣到底它是不是貨幣啊?"},{"start":5632.238,"end":5649.424,"text":"虛擬貨幣事實上現在所以也就是說剛剛我在講就是說這個定義這個翻譯有些時候就是說因為我們所說的虛擬貨幣事實上他們就說在英文他說虛擬通貨事實上虛擬通貨好像是偶爾總結那是在騙人的"},{"start":5654.873,"end":5656.274,"text":"有請彭主委跟林智"},{"start":5689.032,"end":5697.795,"text":"請教兩位長官這是金管會講的吧說詐騙24小時下架還是數碼不講的結果我的FB被騙了盜用結果7月1日我檢舉7月3日兩天以後才下架這是誰管的"},{"start":5714.229,"end":5715.95,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":5735.879,"end":5754.497,"text":"在數發部我們這邊就成立了一個公眾人物打造專用郵箱就是對一些公眾人物包含委員您以後如果遇到這種狀況的話可以跟我們通知由我們這邊來直接向那個META來反映請他們儘速下架做不到就不要講24小時下架你可以講一個48小時72小時比較好講24小時下架結果都是假的"},{"start":5760.642,"end":5760.863,"text":"虛擬貨幣剛才楊總裁講說它是資產"},{"start":5778.817,"end":5800.073,"text":"也有人把他視為避難的資產現在美國FBI資產報告提出來2021到2022損失4300萬美金這個經過會對於有關於虛擬貨幣的這些交易造成了一些困擾紛爭你們怎麼處理啊"},{"start":5801.294,"end":5828.833,"text":"現在就是我們對於這個我們最近有兩個部分一個是從洗錢防治一個在打詐的部分我們已經把那個虛擬資產這個已經匡列在我們的對象裡面當然洗錢是最快這是打詐裡面的帳戶管理的部分我們也把虛擬資產的業者已經放在我們的打詐專法裡面我再請教這個三家存網銀在3月底的時候接近大概虧損接近60億元"},{"start":5830.848,"end":5857.654,"text":"未來還可能增加網銀的數目嗎?現在其實這是一個市場機制不過就是大家對一些所謂的digital insurer或digital banking的這個獲利的pattern大家都有一定有個想法就是說一個銀行剛開始的時候建資成本很高並不見得一開始用獲利來衡量它我們也看到這三家存網銀確實在財報數字是這樣但他們已經有開始呈現出就是改善的一個"},{"start":5858.194,"end":5879.85,"text":"因為這是今天講到金融科技科技金融很重要的一環囉所以你的態度就是說即便他們虧損可是為了這一塊如果有人要申請你們也是開放是不是這個意思其實我們對市場來講我們尊重市場機制對所以我們其實這些門我們並沒有關掉我聽說金融元氣業你們要換人的是吧"},{"start":5881.228,"end":5903.929,"text":"這是有任期制各個各個組織都有都有他的任期制確定換人他的任期到了現在確定換人現在人是就是蘇建隆走了要離開了沒有他們應該是在9月才會到期啦我想這部分還有還有一段時間還有F4也要換人有這樣什麼他們會按照我們的制度就是他們有任期到好最後一小題了這個主席再給我定點時間最後一小題了"},{"start":5905.475,"end":5931.167,"text":"有一個暗網請那個數位部認真看喔虛擬通貨有個暗網叫做幣有個平台的幣托平台你這樣上去然後你就可以通過它去買這些台灣你看台灣股票台灣證券台灣股民100萬的全格式去買然後就被騙了這個有沒有法可以管有沒有技術可以管你知道這個事嗎暗網"},{"start":5934.873,"end":5957.781,"text":"根委員報告,依我的瞭解目前並沒有法律可以管到這個地方,因為像這樣子的案網他的那個server通常是設在國外那這些所有的他成立協會還有理事長,成立協會還有理事長是不是,所以他大大大在那裡你們說沒得管了沒有法可以管了"},{"start":5959.019,"end":5985.209,"text":"我想這個地方是我們整個臺灣不管是行政部門或立法部門都必須通力合作想辦法來管理這樣的問題事實上世界各個國家對這種這種暗網這種交易都覺得非常的困難因為他這個他的那個交易發生的地點事實上是在internet上面那有的像是這種加密貨幣的話根本就沒有在固定一個國家因為他是完全去中心化的"},{"start":5985.789,"end":6008.8,"text":"所以到底是哪一個國家有這個管理所以你的意思就沒辦法管?是,現在全世界所有的國家都沒辦法管現在就是說我們可以管的是這個虛擬貨幣的交易所而不是虛擬貨幣本身因為虛擬貨幣本身是完全去中心化的但是虛擬貨幣的交易所是有它的運作的地點你們管得到嗎?"},{"start":6009.991,"end":6012.312,"text":"其實剛剛次長其實講得很清楚這是全世界大家對於這個網路國界對於這個數位資產一個很重要的盲點我在前面幾次"},{"start":6032.657,"end":6043.857,"text":"也有跟幾位委員報告這個問題就是特別對一些境外還有像這種不是我們現在已經做機構管理納管的部分確實我們要想其他的辦法來好好處理"},{"start":6045.187,"end":6045.367,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員執政"},{"start":6083.135,"end":6084.939,"text":"謝謝主席,有請央行總裁有請楊總裁"},{"start":6095.775,"end":6119.729,"text":"楊總裁隨著疫情發展現在國際上對於數位貨幣那麼他們已經轉去很積極的態度當然數位貨幣它的好處非常多比方說監管容易可以追蹤交易記錄那會減少違必偽鈔這些事實上是有它的功能那麼我認為說"},{"start":6122.335,"end":6136.457,"text":"我們央行至少態度要很精確就是至少在數位貨幣這一塊我們到底做不做那是不是我們要確定這個態度而且要有時間表那您列的說這個"},{"start":6137.959,"end":6139.421,"text":"所以我今天要問你的就兩個問題"},{"start":6156.061,"end":6182.171,"text":"就是說第一點我們央行在數位貨幣的這個部分我們編列了多少預算來推動第二個我們央行到底對數位貨幣有沒有時間表比方說3年前央行說啊這個數位貨幣我們這樣推動大概10年的時間可以達成現在在你今天的這份報告裡面你說這個事實上這個"},{"start":6185.657,"end":6185.737,"text":"我第一個就說"},{"start":6213.894,"end":6230.467,"text":"在目前為止在目前為止的話我們還沒有編列很大的預算去做因為為什麼因為這個目前的一個這個這個雛形的平台呢都是我們"},{"start":6231.408,"end":6255.877,"text":"目前我們央行本身的預算都可以吸納的還有財經公司的預算都可以吸納它這個呢因為它本來它CPTC它是零售的零售的話像財經公司來講的話它本身就是零售的所以它就可以吸納了所以你說在我們央行現行的預算沒有沒有我們到目前就可以來注意來支付就對了我們沒有一向說"},{"start":6256.897,"end":6269.484,"text":"特定的就是說我們推動這個CBDC的這個我們要多少錢還沒有還沒有還沒有那你們的態度跟時間表是什麼那就是說這個第一個被問到了才來提好那剛剛我跟這個至於就是時間表這個問題我就說我很強調的就是說也要看國際發展的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":6284.213,"end":6293.981,"text":"因為CBDC這個不是只有在國內而已,我們的貨幣是要跨境的,要跟國際接軌,如果說國際都沒有的話,那你時間表假如說我跟委員報告,我說我們五年就要做到了"},{"start":6303.368,"end":6315.473,"text":"但是國際上他也沒有啊因為現在我也跟委員報告很誠實的跟委員報告事實上基本上在國際大部分的先進國家他們也沒有時間表"},{"start":6318.004,"end":6338.758,"text":"那在這種情況之下呢 那我要跟委員報告就是說等到我們往前推 我們還是有啊 我們在推啊 我們還是積極的推啊到某一個時點的時候呢 好像這個時機很成熟的時候 那總裁你的意思就是說事實上數位貨幣的推動 它的進程跟它的時間表你們是"},{"start":6339.378,"end":6340.099,"text":"有請彭主委"},{"start":6363.724,"end":6388.678,"text":"喂好彭主委我蠻失望的你正式回給我的答覆就是說我要求我們金管會應該負起責任做到兩點第一點對於現在租賃公司他造成的社會亂象跟對貸款需求的民眾對他們的危害這些我認為金管會第一點要負起這個責任"},{"start":6390.642,"end":6417.14,"text":"對租賃公司融資公司下去做管理第二個應該立一個融資租賃公司管理法才對結果你給我的答覆裡面我認為融資租賃公司管理法這個部分我認為需要而且刻不容緩結果你的答覆以你的專業你竟然答覆我我照你的答覆念你說現行機制啊"},{"start":6418.081,"end":6440.558,"text":"以及金管會近期的措施已經有處理的機制了第二個你說對於這個租賃公司的管理你說你會持續跟財政部、經濟部、消保會他們保持這部分的聯繫合作那你的答覆是這樣那這個答覆齁"},{"start":6441.947,"end":6464.685,"text":"我完全不能接受我相信社會大多數的民眾在瞭解租賃公司尤其最大的這三家占總租賃融資金額95%的這數條三兄弟對他們的惡行惡狀造成社會的亂象社會是不能接受的所以你這個答覆我不接受"},{"start":6465.885,"end":6493.66,"text":"我不接受你認為就不用管嗎?你說現行機制已經有啦我請問啦現行機制哪一條是我們管得到這些租賃公司的現行機制連金管會你都不用管也管他不到不是嗎現行機制裡面是把租賃公司推給經濟部管結果經濟部管是管他什麼管他公司法"},{"start":6495.584,"end":6500.661,"text":"欸!經濟部公司法管理是管理全國140萬家公司"},{"start":6502.287,"end":6528.408,"text":"所以數條三兄弟一年的營業額超過五六千億以上他只不過140萬分之三天啊我們國家我們最高的監管單位竟然如此的縱容這些二次的租賃公司縱容這數條三兄弟你正是白紙黑字這樣跟我答覆的喔"},{"start":6529.758,"end":6551.696,"text":"我對你本來很多期許我想你學有專精在金融尤其保險這個部分你是非常好的風評結果你今天這樣給我答覆所以在你想一下你再答覆我不接受就對我先請楊總裁楊總裁是"},{"start":6558.149,"end":6569.896,"text":"根據中央銀行法第29條本來中央銀行就可以對像現在這樣子二值的這些融資租賃"},{"start":6571.957,"end":6595.328,"text":"這些二次的條約本來就可以有管理所以你認為應不應該由政府出面交由金管會財政部對融資註定公司立一個專法來管理而且把管理的權責收回金管會加上財政部"},{"start":6596.536,"end":6603.863,"text":"你認為需不需要?對於這個議題,政府在亞洲金融危機之前也有考量到是不是要把它納管"},{"start":6617.176,"end":6642.73,"text":"那結果呢在那個時候呢就是說剛好就是說金融危機發生了以後這個就偏頂在那邊不過呢我總覺得啊委員這樣的話好像就對這個融資公司的一個的那個一個一個授信啊這個好像也是授信啊授信的一個行為呢你覺得就是說不過呢我我想就是說監管會他也他會去好好的去考量他了"},{"start":6642.93,"end":6667.671,"text":"好好的考量那需要考量多久啦?他不只是考量他已經考量結束正式答覆我喔說現行機制就可以管理結果現行機制這數條三兄弟造成社會多大的危害跟亂象深受疾害者尤其青年朋友尤其需要資金的民眾"},{"start":6668.905,"end":6688.948,"text":"那是如何的被數條三兄弟壓榨那那個總裁我另外說我就講為什麼說財政部也要管因為九大公營行庫就是屬財政部管啊九大公營行庫董事長總經理都是財政部長任命的結果你知道嗎九大公營行庫啊"},{"start":6690.475,"end":6718.38,"text":"在這十年間貸款給數條山兄弟就這三家而已喔受信給他的額度高達八千九百二十一億九千億之多然後實質放款給他的四千八百五十四億將近五千億他們低利1.7%的低利貸款給數條山兄弟"},{"start":6719.771,"end":6745.232,"text":"數條三兄弟左手帶第一利1.7%右手放高利貸放給需要的民眾放給青年朋友們我們公營行庫眼睜睜的看著來自社會大眾的資金縱容交給數條三兄弟去吸血吸民眾的血吸青年朋友的血"},{"start":6746.107,"end":6771.459,"text":"眼睜睜地看著他幹這種事這不是縱容嗎而且一而再再而三本席提出要求要管理之後到現在四個月了給我一個答覆說他現行機制就可以管理現行機制是這個樣子耶是這麼惡劣縱容數條三兄弟吸民眾的血"},{"start":6773.143,"end":6776.885,"text":"所以啊我請問啊那個楊總裁還有彭主委啊公營函庫我們公家管理的如果我們讓蜀條三兄弟吸民眾的血你們於心何忍這是我們的同胞耶可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":6800.563,"end":6825.538,"text":"只因為我們需要的這些民眾們青年朋友們他們借貸無門我們政府就讓他們給鼠條三兄弟去剝皮剝三件皮、四件皮去吸他們的血可以這樣嗎所以我要求楊總裁我把金管會主委交給你"},{"start":6826.331,"end":6832.635,"text":"你糾正他這一點根據中央銀行法第29條本來就可以要求他所以彭主任我今天對你非常的失望我本來對你抱以厚望啊我想你新上任啊"},{"start":6842.128,"end":6862.344,"text":"你還保有赤子之心會保護我們多數需要資金的民眾們一個合理的待會結果不是還有那個我抱歉我三四秒齁還有那個總裁抱歉我生氣了三秒鐘一二三好"},{"start":6866.647,"end":6892.529,"text":"另外我要交代給你就是說你要要求金融 剛才提到的房市的泡沫化竟然我們負債比前10名的建設公司負債比都在75%以上 最高的高達88.6%將近9成 這都是會造成房市泡沫化 你看借錢給這些不肖建商"},{"start":6894.065,"end":6895.586,"text":"我把彭主委就交給你啦"},{"start":6924.179,"end":6926.941,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員質詢接著我們請李燕秀委員質詢來我請楊總裁有請楊總裁"},{"start":6958.106,"end":6982.337,"text":"李委員早總裁早安連續一三的一次會我終於有機會問到有關於數位貨幣的議題我看完整個你們的工作報告其實我有12個字可以來形容對於發行數位貨幣央行的態度就是明包暗扁、做法保守"},{"start":6983.217,"end":7010.206,"text":"以拖待變我為什麼會說你們是明包暗扁呢因為你在工作報告裡面有提了央行包括對於數位貨幣包括在很多新進國家其實目前發展的狀況其實都不如預期所以對於CBDC你們的態度是比較審慎的這也凸顯出央行對於到底要不要主動積極推動這個數位貨幣這件事情你們的意願度事實上是不高的"},{"start":7010.926,"end":7035.922,"text":"為什麼我說你做法保守呢因為其實我們仍舊保留銀行作為中介的功能而且初期我們都還是不計利息所以包括在以拖待變的部分為什麼我這麼說因為我們已經做完民調但是相關的一些初期的準備但是甚至是我們要到明年我們才準備要辦第一場公聽會所以"},{"start":7037.883,"end":7056.688,"text":"按照道理說做民調反映的是現在對於推動數位貨幣民間產官學界大家的看法到底是什麼但你要拖到我不知道是不是央行人不夠還是怎麼樣我們要拖到明年我們才打完辦第一場公聽會所以我說我用這12個字送給總裁對於推動這個數位貨幣這件事總裁你覺得委屈嗎"},{"start":7063.29,"end":7090.743,"text":"我想就是說我們要推動CBDC就是說除了除了就是說要對公眾來做比較那個要做一個很明確的一個溝通以外我覺得委員做了這樣的一個做了這樣的一個的評論我也意思認為就是說我們要向委員再做進一步的溝通"},{"start":7092.764,"end":7112.731,"text":"你不用跟我溝通,因為我看你目前做的事情我用了12個字送給你,真的是謝謝因為我們在報告裡面呢,我們也沒辦法講得非常的清楚剛剛我也有提到,就是說CBDC它的主要的功能呢"},{"start":7113.911,"end":7129.452,"text":"其中之一呢就是就是跨境要跨境那如果說我們的CBDC只有在國內做他的效果他的效能他的那個功能我都很清楚這個是如果可以跨國際很多國家大家都可以一起推動未來對對對對對"},{"start":7131.014,"end":7132.615,"text":"我再想齁所以我就說這個要看國際的趨勢是怎樣"},{"start":7154.685,"end":7172.284,"text":"那國際的趨勢假如說國際的趨勢都是是你在等他們啊大家都等來等去不是不是因為不是不是我就說他發行不是因為我剛剛也講了因為他這個CPT到最後的最主要功能也是要去跨境啊跨境的時候就要兩個去兌換啊"},{"start":7174.486,"end":7188.634,"text":"如果說對方沒有的時候我怎麼對話?那你跟國際之間這件事情有在對話嗎?這個BIS我告訴委員 這個我們報告裡面也講BIS也是很在積極的要如何撮合一個平台讓國際之間的CPTC來做一個對話"},{"start":7193.317,"end":7203.813,"text":"總裁,我再問一個問題因為在這個過程當中你指出說銀行要做中介信這個中介信是階段性的還是永久?沒有,它還是永久的"},{"start":7206.653,"end":7223.228,"text":"他不是結論性喔因為我們講的很清楚就是說所以未來如果有機會規劃的話也不會是央行直接推而是一定會透過中介銀行比如像說我後面的第二個part會講到一個代幣化"},{"start":7225.082,"end":7253.552,"text":"貸幣化的意思就是說你一定要存款貸幣化這個要先做了以後央行的一個其他國家會一樣也會是雙城市嗎?一樣的所以我就說這個就是不是說單獨中央銀行來做一做我們就推出來了但是呢最重要的我是覺得所以我們有一個中介這個銀行雙城市的推動最主要是不是擔心銀行體系會有急高如果沒有透過它"},{"start":7254.973,"end":7277.072,"text":"因為就是說你透過銀行的體系的時候比如說像那個Wholesale就是說批發式的你如果說沒有商業銀行的代幣化的時候呢商業銀行的本身它的運作就比較不會有效率"},{"start":7277.893,"end":7278.934,"text":"為什麼你一開始連公聽會都還沒開你就開始決定說初期不計息"},{"start":7294.136,"end":7309.007,"text":"對啊,因為我們先從零售然後再到 wholesale、到批發那零售的話我剛剛也在講啦,零售的很簡單的就是現金的數位化"},{"start":7309.887,"end":7315.452,"text":"會不會降低很多存戶的意願?不會不會,因為你看看我們的現金,難道我們的現金有差距利息嗎?有利息嗎?沒有啊!"},{"start":7326.38,"end":7346.181,"text":"我們存入銀行就沒有利息啊但是那時候商業銀行貨幣他的那個存款他的那個合期存款合期存款還是存款那現金是現金就是說支付他馬上我支付馬上就settle就一手交錢一手交貨"},{"start":7347.122,"end":7360.479,"text":"所以現今我們就說現今的數位化然後沒有不計息但是我們要計息的這個功能要是它是作為貨幣政策的一個工具"},{"start":7361.761,"end":7383.749,"text":"所以當然是應該開始的時候是要我最後問一個問題我們現在在台灣登記的公司好像總共有78.1萬家如果我們發行推動CBDC的話我們有沒有思考過大概建制需要花多少的薪費你有沒有精算過到目前為止還沒有"},{"start":7385.388,"end":7404.633,"text":"所以我為什麼用那12個字送給你?因為其實很清楚的嘛我剛才那12個字其實很清楚的嘛其實就是我覺得一開始你們的態度其實就是對於推動CBDC這件事就是明包暗扁然後你們目前的做法"},{"start":7405.763,"end":7412.406,"text":"我跟各位報告了就是說事實上各個國家主要的中央銀行在推動這個CBDC呢到目前為止大部分都沒有時間表"},{"start":7433.459,"end":7435.84,"text":"主席,我先問一下金管會主委,我簡短一分鐘一下就好了委員好"},{"start":7452.386,"end":7477.658,"text":"主委好我還是要問一下因為剛才我有關注到這兩天工商協定會吳東亮理事長有帶一群理監事一起去看您其中最關鍵的一個問題就是在金融的競爭裡面有一個重點就是提到說目前幾十年來我們的這個金融業佔台灣的GDP的比重大概大概6%左右都在顯然這幾年都沒有顯著的成長"},{"start":7478.698,"end":7507.51,"text":"相較新加坡這幾十年其實金融業的成長都在13%上下左右那也都超過台灣的兩倍甚至是有三家全球百大銀行都是新加坡銀行但是台灣卻一家也沒有那台灣規模最大銀行就是我們自己的台灣銀行在20年前包括台灣、台銀的資產規模其實都比新加坡甚至比新展銀行還要大但這幾年"},{"start":7508.59,"end":7508.77,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":7524.906,"end":7545.719,"text":"市場上均衡的發展對台灣最好但是就金融業而言我們要想辦法打亞洲盃甚至我們要想辦法打世界盃你也提到說我們最大的問題之前我看到你說我們的人才不足在金融業人才不足那我就要請問主委我們人才不足你有沒有想法要怎麼做解決"},{"start":7546.579,"end":7573.102,"text":"因為所有的人都可能跑去高科技產業想去台積電上班想去鴻海上班那你怎麼解決如果做亞洲的資產中心仍舊是你這四年內你來的最主要目標那你怎麼去解決這件事情是謝謝委員剛剛提到大家很喜歡用那個金融產值佔GDP的比重其實跟香港跟新加坡比這個這一點可能要稍微再仔細思考一下因為台灣是有產業等於是我們的分母這個我知道對所以說"},{"start":7574.305,"end":7591.21,"text":"這個指標我們還是希望努力過去台灣金融業雖然保持在6左右實際上主要它跟我們的GDP是同步成長它沒有超額成長我想剛才人才是全世界競爭的那你要怎麼解決對就是說這個東西無論你要打亞洲盃、世界盃、金融業你要做亞洲資產管理中心之一"},{"start":7592.19,"end":7594.931,"text":"所以主委你還是要有解決的方案跟方式報到行政院那邊去讓院長、讓總統知道這件事情我支持你做這件事情但是這個不是嘴巴喊了四年到最後什麼都沒有我要提醒主委"},{"start":7613.956,"end":7616.157,"text":"每個國家在壯大金融市場的做法不同像台灣今年我們大概是"},{"start":7633.382,"end":7652.988,"text":"我們有邁向22年的金控公司各位可以看臺灣幾大金控公司從過去這20年來資產規模整個資產規模擴大大概6到7倍我想這件事情是一個我們的方法可能跟新加坡單純走銀行可能不太一樣那你的方法是什麼沒關係因為時間到了第一個我們持續的強化我們金控"},{"start":7666.721,"end":7669.702,"text":"謝謝主席 有請彭主委沒有 彭主委你直接上來沒關係啦"},{"start":7693.766,"end":7710.886,"text":"主委好主委我想今天請你做專題報告的重點其實在扶植這個金融科技業那在你的報告當中我沒有看到機器人理財我是覺得還有點失望我以為你會以這個為重點因為之前您就已經對外有一些政策宣示一個方向了"},{"start":7711.807,"end":7722.783,"text":"不過以金融科技業的這個定義來看的話透過資訊或網路科技來輔導或者是提升金融服務就是在定義當中可是這樣看起來"},{"start":7724.398,"end":7747.956,"text":"金融科技好像是附屬產業金融的附屬產業它沒有主體性可言感覺上是如此以至於說你看你去處理這個沙盒的部分還是以事辦為主對真正沙盒的部分的加速寥寥無幾這個金管會的心態抱持這樣的情況底下那個科技金融不是金融科技就你的這個定義上是這樣子所以我覺得主委"},{"start":7748.816,"end":7775.297,"text":"金融科技業的扶植很關鍵你一定要把它主體化不是嗎主委請說是報告那個其實我們那個商務實驗條例第18條特別明定金管會負有扶植金融科技業的責任這是法條所明定我們整個金融科技業呢假設用我們市場的區分有所謂的Fintech跟Techfin比如說剛剛委員講的就是應該是講Techfin就是由科技業者"},{"start":7776.097,"end":7802.566,"text":"實行跟金融業務有關的主體是科技業那另外一個Fintech主體是金融業做這個那過去一直都認為說政府的重點都著重在Fintech而沒重在TechfinTechfin最重要的是它能不能創造像國外所謂的獨角獸這個在這個概念其實我們也關注到國際的趨勢國際這兩個金融業跟科技業的合作大概從國際這個Fintech的發展裡面大概"},{"start":7803.386,"end":7821.659,"text":"幾乎絕大多數大概是六七成以上的這個所謂的它是協助金融業去增加效率但是還是有差不多是想要做這個創新的我想這個就是我們未來想要做的我覺得跟你談創新的這個部分我們實在是太落後了啦講白一點我就問你一個嘛"},{"start":7822.059,"end":7842.952,"text":"現在用機器人理財是最流行的嘛以機器人理財有一個人如果假設他用成立一家公司用機器人在進行理財那用自有資金的部分的話那我請問一下這算金融是歸您管的嗎這個如果說他今天是牽涉到比如說對投資的決策規劃那個比如說像我們的投顧啊投信啊他就會做這個事情嘛"},{"start":7843.712,"end":7860.08,"text":"所以這部分如果他去涉及到做這個我們的法定的業務那當然是歸金管會主對但是他目前為止他資金來源也不一樣嘛一個IPO一個是私募一個是自有資產嘛性質善後還不一樣啊我如果是自己的錢我來自己操作呢這還算你管的嗎"},{"start":7862.077,"end":7887.933,"text":"這個當然他是我們通常金融管理委員會主管他是要對不特定大眾提供這樣對,就是大眾資金嘛那問題來了過往其實我們對於這個投薪業者的部分都一定要把他法人化嘛那你現在在推動所謂資產管理中心資產管理中心他就有一個家族辦公室的問題家族辦公室他不想要讓機構掌握的話他就會找所謂的專業投資人嘛也就是CFA嘛那CFA的部分台灣有開放嗎"},{"start":7888.353,"end":7900.088,"text":"台灣有向美國向香港向新加坡當我們想要跟他爭奪競爭業務的情況底下你所謂的個人投信專業的投資人你沒有開放的情況底下你如何帶動這個資產管理中心的發展"},{"start":7901.48,"end":7929.346,"text":"就我的理解現行的架構確實沒有沒有人針對這一塊那你有沒有考慮開放啊這個在我們未來在整個規劃這個所謂的資產管理中心我們會針對各種的課程就個人投信專業投資人家族公司不想要被機構綁架的情況底下他只信任一個個人那個人投資人的這個開放的重要性你如果沒有讓他合法化的話他也可能帶整個家族的資金過來結果你沒有讓他過來那你的資產管理中心怎麼建構"},{"start":7930.531,"end":7944.52,"text":"對這是其中的一塊我們的目標課程裡面很專業的很重要的一塊啊主委所以你們考慮個人投信的部分跟既有的法人投信有一個競合的可能性這個我們會請我們的政期局這邊來你應該好好思考一下對"},{"start":7945.501,"end":7967.268,"text":"真的就基本上我們這法規本身要鬆綁金融科技就是要鬆綁法規沙盒時間就鬆綁法規你的整個資產管理就要本身要鬆綁法規你如果這個都還沒有兼顧起來的話你怎麼成立資產管理中心這個確實我們過去的法制是有一定的思維跟框架對而且金融管理中心你如果這樣的個人的專業投資人你有兼顧起來的話你還可減少詐騙你知道嗎"},{"start":7970.215,"end":7986.287,"text":"你給他一個license你允許他一個執照你納管其他的說非法有沒有可能現階段很多詐騙就假設個人是專業而取代所謂投顧投信然後跟著我走就是這樣子的情況啊不是嗎亂象就這樣產生了制度上的缺漏就是如此啊"},{"start":7987.067,"end":8010.392,"text":"謝謝委員提供一個可以思考的方向啦,我想過去我們在金管會傳統就是對所謂的機構管理都是對不特定大眾有做這些行為對,你應該站在這個角度也需要順便打詐嘛好不好,你思考一下開放個人投信專業投資人第二個部分呢,理財機器人的部分一般是跟ETF掛鉤在一起的還有一個跟高頻交易掛鉤在一起的,來我讓你看一下"},{"start":8011.292,"end":8032.766,"text":"下禮拜說要討論當中的議題啦!證券供貨侯籍的跟什麼一樣那根本年底要處理的事情還遊說拉比本委員會委員我給你看一下機器人理財機器人理財根據你們證交所的計算當中最高的金額總共獲利的是23人而已這個人是自然人他背後是法人獲利是207億平均一個人是獲利9億之多"},{"start":8037.569,"end":8065.821,"text":"我把它切開境內境外、自然人跟法人很不巧的就是這些境外的法人賺了最多194億當中賺最多的錢是靠機器人的高頻交易啊就境內的法人還輸3億多境內的自然人輸了291億主委這個當中交易有符合金融正義嗎?有符合租稅正義嗎?"},{"start":8067.318,"end":8084.395,"text":"你真的要思考一下你是不是要還規啊、捧水啊這個問題你要好好思考一下啊不是下禮拜一找你來問你就答應他啊 對不對你們報告已經送出去啦你看這個獲利的結果韭菜是誰?國內的獲利的是誰?境外的"},{"start":8085.697,"end":8103.188,"text":"透過高評交易、透過極情的交易而獲得,看這是不是競爭上不公平?豬稅上有爭議嗎?金融上有爭議嗎?主委請回答所以我想剛才委員提醒這個,我會請政體局跟交易所好好地把這些資料做一個分析然後再來看看中間的一些行為今天第一次看到這些資料吧?"},{"start":8104.208,"end":8132.023,"text":"我跟你說有兩大公司啦有兩間法人公司啦就在這個證交所旁邊而已啦他聘請了大概300位的工程師啦你去查一下都是印度人一個月可以大賺1億啊一個月就可以大賺1億所以這種情況你想這些境外的23家公司他都不受金管會的AI運用所所監管喔各位哈囉你知道嗎你知道這種狀況嗎制度可以這樣延續嗎"},{"start":8133.362,"end":8154.322,"text":"制度都不檢討嗎?對,這我們會來瞭解跟檢討。你要好好思考一下。對,我們立刻折騰政經局跟交易所這邊。對,好好深入思考一下。另外一個部分有關於沙盒實驗本期再三做提醒。沙盒跟示範性質本身不同,你剛剛fintech、techfix都不同。"},{"start":8155.083,"end":8177.53,"text":"金融科技跟科技金融不一樣不一樣的情況底下就應該分開計算嘛不是嗎是這樣你才會有一個壓力跟目標你事辦性質的基本上是行政規範的鬆綁可是沙盒的部分呢其實是在法律上的鬆綁但層級是不同的對沙盒不是針對法律的鬆綁部分好因為我最後要問一個問題跟總裁有關係楊總裁請好謝謝委員那個主委請留步"},{"start":8179.497,"end":8205.184,"text":"總裁,主委有去拜訪過您有關於資本集中的問題關於後門條款的部分,你到底給他什麼樣的指示?有什麼樣要交代他的?請說一下好不好?你們私底下會談重點我們在講到就是說這是我們私底下有談論過就是說這個27條之二他有那些的排除條款我們是不是來檢討一下看看"},{"start":8205.404,"end":8205.964,"text":"總裁請回去 主委請"},{"start":8232.537,"end":8254.527,"text":"主委上個禮拜銀行局莊局長跟我講說加上所謂後門條款29但是到113年5月份總共的金管會統計72條之二是26.54跟你109年相比是26.7看起來反而減少喔可是主委我要讓你看一個數字你去看喔38家銀行的母數"},{"start":8255.487,"end":8278.854,"text":"基數從44.8兆成長了56.8兆總共增加了12兆欸同樣的比例你有沒有算過到底多少資金放貸到整個土建籠裡頭去多了幾兆你自己算多了幾兆嘛足足大概多了4兆之多啦是不是足足多了4兆之多"},{"start":8280.839,"end":8299.028,"text":"就絕對數額來看比例,看什麼比例?你要看健康數字啊!整個央行總裁再怎麼總體信用管制,有好沒?沒好啦!多了4兆耶!而且你每年存款金額大概要多3兆多!"},{"start":8300.387,"end":8327.281,"text":"彭主委,多3兆多1兆就是說你又多了1兆可以放貸的空間欸房地產的話不可能不漲嘛對不對你都沒有其他約束的方式嗎?彭主委現在是主要是剛才72之2他有個30啦就是剛剛的比例確實兩個分母跟分子同步上升比例看起來是會穩定但那個值是量是增加總體信用款是不能只有比例上的思考還有金額上的思考嘛"},{"start":8328.646,"end":8345.797,"text":"你看增加4兆房地產怎麼可能不漲總體信用管制這3年多來為什麼比較沒有成效就是銀行放大款怪不得我們金融業會賺那麼多錢放給土建融最容易嘛"},{"start":8347.503,"end":8354.006,"text":"我請問一下彭主任你管不管!總額的部分可能要跟央行一起來討論這件事情楊總裁,你覺得有沒有需要總額的限制?"},{"start":8370.188,"end":8370.688,"text":"現在我們請黃宏威委員質詢"},{"start":8406.705,"end":8409.327,"text":"謝謝主席,我請我們楊總裁有請楊總裁今天我們討論就是有關於我們中央銀行的數位貨幣推出的政策、期程還有整個準備的進度"},{"start":8434.006,"end":8453.36,"text":"我其實已經看了整個的報告那我還是要請問總裁我們CBDC我們現在以中央銀行的立場來講有沒有一個大概的時間可以上路的時間我還沒有我們還沒有就是說很明確的去"},{"start":8455.312,"end":8479.088,"text":"我看到其他國家待會我也會講一下其他國家也是在做一些準備但是他們比如可以宣布說譬如我在兩年內我來決議我要不要做比如說我是不是2026和2025來決定告訴大家到底我會不會推CBDC那我們可以"},{"start":8479.768,"end":8498.578,"text":"對外做一個這樣子因為這樣子也比較好這樣子你們有一個期程我覺得這個有好處但是也有也有它的一個不好的地方為什麼因為你如果說是兩年我來決定好到時候兩年決定的時候他說他不發行"},{"start":8499.605,"end":8512.976,"text":"但是呢整個全球都是在發行的當中那然後呢他又覺得就是說欸你看看因為剛剛我也講了就是說CPTC他很重要的一個功能在他的close border"},{"start":8513.763,"end":8515.524,"text":"所以總裁我這樣聽你的講法就是說未來我們會不會做CBDC當然有很多的一些考慮但是其中一個就是它夠不夠國際化"},{"start":8540.237,"end":8559.49,"text":"如果世界各國,這主要國家都已經上路了,那就算我們央行不願意,但是呢,情勢所然,我們也要上車,是這個意思吧?但是呢,這個當然,你如果說這樣子講的時候呢,我也覺得說中央銀行好像就是說他是很保守,他是被動的。"},{"start":8560.811,"end":8561.972,"text":"我跟委員報告：事實上貨幣體系的改革他是要謹慎的"},{"start":8584.625,"end":8614.105,"text":"我怎麼這麼說所以總裁你認為你並不保守我不保守但是你會謹慎是你的態度那另外我在你們的報告裡面有提到你可能會先行做一些事辦特別提到政府的押標金的部分我請問一下因為像世界各國也都會他不會全面性的實施他大概都會選擇一些就是他有一個所謂的事業"},{"start":8614.645,"end":8615.286,"text":"會不會就這個數位券的這個部分來做試驗?"},{"start":8636.66,"end":8650.081,"text":"因為押標金這個也是一個很好的過程但是他要有一個前提那什麼前提呢也就是說我們商業銀行的存款呢必須要代幣化那這個工程會比較大"},{"start":8652.621,"end":8670.843,"text":"那這個數位券的這個工程比較簡單所以如果說我們如果說要試驗然後我們是從這一步踏出去的話也許對我們來講的話第一個我們比較有信心第二個比較容易做"},{"start":8671.499,"end":8676.34,"text":"所以確實有這樣的一個構成是是是我覺得世界各國因為確實大家都已經美國、英國、歐盟、日本、韓國其實都有很具體的一些進程他們的時間包含中國大陸他們也開始有一些包含一般的大眾或者企業他有所謂的試點所以我才講說我們的試點會不會放在一個政府的押標金然後呢總裁"},{"start":8700.405,"end":8724.702,"text":"因為我們前不久提出了我們有關於就是要抑制房價的信用管制可是我們看到最新的有關於及時房價的指數那麼以今年第二季來看那事實上如果跟去年第二季來比較全台灣這樣子的年增率仍然高達9.5%的漲幅所以"},{"start":8728.385,"end":8749.406,"text":"也就是說我們一直要打房當然你說不是打房是打草房隨便啦就是要抑制房價因為這兩年房價實在飆升得太多可是看起來如果以第二季的數字來說房價依然在飆升即便跟前一季也就是今年的第二季跟第一季的比較"},{"start":8750.387,"end":8778.638,"text":"全台灣的漲幅也高達了4.7%其中新北市達到6.3%新竹縣市達到6.8%所以我想請教總裁你對於我們中央銀行所提出來的打房的措施到目前為止你感到滿意嗎?你感到有收到成效嗎?我跟委員報告就是說中央銀行必須要"},{"start":8780.509,"end":8802.66,"text":"必須要做我們該做的事情但是行政院的一個健全房地產市場的一個方案這是各部會的共同要努力的目標所以也就是說剛剛委員在講到說這個房價飆漲事實上我們看了我們也都是很警惕的"},{"start":8803.3,"end":8804.021,"text":"有沒有心驚膽跳?穩定物價才是你們的目標?"},{"start":8819.212,"end":8841.209,"text":"就是說你的房價是不是會導致他泡沫而讓我們的金融業我們的銀行業呢因為他房價下跌了以後呢他沒辦法承受那些的損失然後導致這個金融的穩定總裁你講的話我一半同意啊一半不同意"},{"start":8842.31,"end":8871.351,"text":"同意的部分沒有錯其實我們很多的政策不是只有央行的信用管制的措施才能夠收到成效那比如說像新青安那麼現在幾乎都可以確定新青安就是這兩年助長房價的一個非常重要的推手而且我們非常擔心五年之後問題就會出現我昨天還在聽就是說某一個企業的員工夫婦兩個人新婚結果新青安呢"},{"start":8872.071,"end":8884.067,"text":"那個老婆去帶了一個房子買了一個房子後來先生說感覺好便宜然後先生也趕快再去帶了新清安就說明明他們只要買一棟房結果他們因為新清安讓他可以去投資一棟房"},{"start":8889.654,"end":8915.476,"text":"所以新建案確實有問題但是現在新建案也在做一些整頓另外其實像我們房地合一稅當然希望當時草房不要大家的轉手太過頻繁但是它發生什麼狀況呢現在標的最兇的都是新建案因為五年以內的房子不會釋出那個稅實在太重了所以導致現在的新建案飆升"},{"start":8916.737,"end":8933.368,"text":"所以常講你就是像防水一樣你把這一條堵住了但是它的水就是這麼多所以我剛才其實某一程度我同意我們剛才趙薇所講的錢就是這麼多你這個把它堵住了它就往另外一個水道所以那個話就整個的長起來它有很多的問題但是"},{"start":8935.129,"end":8961.487,"text":"如果今天中央銀行採取了這麼多的措施可是我們看到的房價的指數仍然繼續的飆升大家就會認為說政府打房打假的那是不是還是不夠力可是常打出來的恐怕沒有辦法對症下藥我今天用一點點時間比如說你們現在對第二房就是有些區域第二房現在給他的貸款的層數降低"},{"start":8963.128,"end":8976.32,"text":"現在呢我們就接到很多的陳情而不是建商告買房的人買房的人告建商互相告啊因為他當時去買房的時候他不曉得他貸款成數會變這麼低所以其實我當時有跟央行來協調"},{"start":8979.199,"end":8996.941,"text":"這個措施我支持但是你的實施點你要考慮到當時他去買這個房子的時候他不知道他貸款成數會降那麼低結果現在在現場第一線產生了很多的一些困擾跟爭議好我剩最後一點時間來我覺得很重要的哈"},{"start":8997.722,"end":9018.223,"text":"日圓貶值到目前我等了老半天只有一家車商我也不要幫他做廣告啦我覺得他本來就應該降價但他至少降價開第一槍日系產品沒有人降價欸怎麼會這樣以前起碼要喝咖啡啊我也公開喊話我說經濟部你趕快去請這些廠商喝咖啡咖啡錢我來出沒有問題"},{"start":9019.244,"end":9040.481,"text":"怎麼會這樣子日圓都已經扁到這個地板上了結果我們所有的家電啦我們女生的這個化妝品啦什麼就是家用用品啦服飾啊給我講一些有的沒有的理由就是不肯降價很不合理對不對我上次也有問過總裁啊總裁很關心這個事情你可以跟經濟部長講一下這樣子"},{"start":9042.242,"end":9042.963,"text":"謝謝王宏偉的哲學,我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":9695.353,"end":9711.224,"text":"好,我們繼續開會,接著請葛禄君委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請中央銀行楊金龍總裁有請楊總裁"},{"start":9718.533,"end":9744.323,"text":"委員早早總裁你好今日財委會安排數位貨幣的議程首先還是要來關注一下我國CBDC目前研發的進度根據央行今天所提的書面報告我國的CBDC目前沒有發行的時間表但是據本席了解立法院財委會早在110年就曾經由李桂敏召委安排數位貨幣準備狀況的專題報告當時呢"},{"start":9749.087,"end":9749.868,"text":"我想第一個"},{"start":9778.234,"end":9806.753,"text":"宣導還是要再往前宣導而且宣導很重要要讓大家廣泛對CBDC的一個了解是第一個第二個平台的精進平台的精進平台的精進也許我們做了到某一個程度但是還是要往前精進這是第二個第三個是我們的法制作業必須要積極的進行"},{"start":9808.154,"end":9825.287,"text":"謝謝總裁您剛剛提到的這所有的細節全部不在你們所提出的四個階段技術研究試驗先導計畫試點跟全面上線我們之後會再就教於你們那無論目前我們推動在哪一個階段安全問題始終都是首要關注的重點有啊有啊我們這個我們在報告裡面也有講啊"},{"start":9826.227,"end":9852.977,"text":"所以現在換階段名稱了是不是對不是不是就是說這個是一開始在特別是在第一個第二個就是說你的平台的精進這邊呢就是安全就會在那所以現在是技術研究階段還是實驗階段還是在技術這應該是實驗而且是在精進所以還在第二階段嗎三年過去我們還在第二階段對對對對那我們什麼時候會進入下一階段先導計畫試點"},{"start":9855.481,"end":9859.283,"text":"請問我們的CBDC採用的DLT的技術是不是都可以解決這三個問題了?"},{"start":9886.355,"end":9911.147,"text":"這個是技術的問題我請了我們的同事來能不能已經解決了?是不是已經解決了?跟委員報告這些問題我們都有在關注也都在解決事實上像這個所謂敗戰型將軍的問題其實我們現在用的這個鏈其實不會有這種問題後面兩個呢?Double Spending 跟 Spare Tech呢?Double Spending 當然也不會有這種問題"},{"start":9912.662,"end":9916.185,"text":"接下來我們一定要非常注意我們的安全性的問題另外本席也要請教民眾最擔心的隱私問題"},{"start":9928.434,"end":9954.97,"text":"根據央行的問卷調查高達45.2%的民眾對於CBDC留下交易記錄感到有些擔憂隱私應該要非常的重要但是根據央行7月1日提供給財委會的考察報告卻提到開立不記名錢包需要提供手機號碼請問總裁對於開立不記名錢包要求需要提供手機號碼的理由到底是什麼好那我總處來回答"},{"start":9957.952,"end":9985.871,"text":"首先不記名錢包的意思是跟他是不做KYC的跟記名區塊來那為什麼要手機號碼因為我們也很怕說如果沒有手機號碼他可能會開好多個錢包然後做一個詐騙的一個車手的錢包所以他們給我們號碼之後我們會去透過中介機構他去畫一個OTP再回過頭來檢印這個手機是有效性的就給一個錢包但是受到傳到央行的部分是已經是去識別化雜錯數的亂碼的"},{"start":9988.713,"end":9998.821,"text":"你們是用哪一個技術?誰提供的服務?可以做到這樣子?你讓他提供手機,然後你又說是隱私、匿名。你們用誰的技術?"},{"start":9999.836,"end":10020.049,"text":"我們有開發一個標準的規格是你們開發的還是誰開發的?你們開發的你們自己的技術你們當然就有可能留下這些資料啊對但是我就說是中介機構留下手機號碼還是那這樣怎麼叫做不記名呢?而且你剛剛提到房子你說所以你一個叫做要KYC一個叫做要留下手機號碼"},{"start":10021.11,"end":10039.614,"text":"這哪叫做不記名?這哪叫做隱私呢?沒關係我時間有限防止大量開立不記名錢包去防詐去擔心大家用詐騙那大家以後你說防止車手我不要讓大家開車我防止大家接詐騙的簡訊我就不要收簡訊這種被動消極的方法我覺得真的不是最好的"},{"start":10040.174,"end":10065.196,"text":"總裁我想提醒民眾的自由和隱私是最珍貴的不管哪個政黨我們都要全力去保障民眾不好意思我時間有限所以我不想佔大家太多時間民眾有自由可以選擇他用隱私的方式花錢如果我們要用技術的方式去處理他的隱私要增加的成本央行就編列相關的預算去執行不要去因約廢時"},{"start":10066.957,"end":10084.953,"text":"最後我提到一個技術的問題不好意思主席再跟您借一點點時間謝謝根據你們提出來的尤其我訪查的時候你們說TPS只有10不太夠用但是呢現在的這個技術4年的時間已經過去了以太坊已達到TPS60"},{"start":10086.354,"end":10114.429,"text":"L2、L3擴容可以達到240、索拉納可以到平均值2000我真的是要問湘航對於DLT技術的應用你們究竟採用什麼共識演算法你們採用的技術到底跟哪一個國家是一樣的我從所有的報告裡面完全看不出來是技術黑箱可不可以解藥說明我已經幫你們整理了會後我會提供給你們好可以啊不是我說你們用的技術跟哪一個國家一樣"},{"start":10115.643,"end":10144.831,"text":"到底是什麼演算法?什麼DLT?是R3還是Hyperledger全部沒看到嗎?跟委員報告就是說其實這個專案從2019年就開始了所以技術是不斷的在演進那我們在這個試驗的過程裡面也不斷的在嘗試各種的技術譬如說我們之前也用過Colon那也有用過Coda也有用Hyperledger的Fabric那現在是什麼?目前是在用Hyperledger的Bassoop"},{"start":10145.54,"end":10161.856,"text":"好,那為什麼報告你都沒有提到?因為這個比較細節啦好啦,歡迎我們希望未來我們辦公室會跟你們來做一些討論希望我們能做一些技術交流確保我們的技術CBDC是領先全球好不好,謝謝謝謝葛國勳委員的質詢接著我們請賴慧雲委員質詢"},{"start":10172.604,"end":10175.687,"text":"請金管會主委謝謝主席有請彭主委委員好是主席我想針對的就是臺南市的老人的人口比例來跟那個主委做一個探討"},{"start":10192.895,"end":10215.128,"text":"不好意思,因為我剛剛跟陳一貞委員換了所以我從縣區跑過來就我們台南其實有185萬9千的人口數其實我們的老人化的一個程度相當的高就是說18.77這個是以一個六度的平均的一個65歲的老人比"},{"start":10215.928,"end":10239.139,"text":"可是相對的就是說我們其實是超過了我們站到了就是高於全國的平均我們已經到今年的5月是在19.12那今天我們討論了虛擬貨幣的一個交易跟金融科技的一個議題科技帶來了很多的一個便利可是相對的就是在我的選區這些老年人"},{"start":10240.319,"end":10266.188,"text":"不一定是非常便利的我們從實體銀行過多可是它集中在險區那這個鄉村成為金融的一個政控區主委這完全就是這個10萬人平均會有17家銀行的一個分行的一個服務可是相對的就是說在本席的險區裡頭這個有很大的一個區域的一個落差"},{"start":10267.128,"end":10291.163,"text":"在以選區為例我20家在新營北門將軍後壁東山下營還有柳營是完全都沒有銀行的完全都沒有銀行的可是我在這裡要請問主委有沒有針對的偏鄉偏鄉的這一個覆蓋力那個可以提高實質的金融服務有沒有比較好的方法呢"},{"start":10291.263,"end":10317.355,"text":"是報告委員其實我們在過去對於銀行的分行的遷移或是裁測或是增設我們都是非常關注啦特別是過去我們在整併的時候呢很多的銀行都是為了這個分行所以我們對一些偏鄉的服務的考慮並不會完全依據他們的商業的考慮其實上有做這個這樣的考慮可是你的分行分行就沒有啊那怎麼辦勒"},{"start":10318.255,"end":10336.855,"text":"對,就是說這部分我想請楊局長做個簡短的回覆一下,現在的政策,對是,局長報告委員,我們確實對於偏鄉這邊在生成銀行生成實體分支機構的時候其實是會給予一些便利性,比如說它任何時間都可以提出申請"},{"start":10337.856,"end":10355.711,"text":"所以我們也是希望說在偏鄉這邊可以多設一些分支機構不過就是有一個部分可能要跟委員解釋就是說因為我們目前定義的偏鄉是還有包括就是說他也沒有郵費局也沒有信用合作社"},{"start":10357.512,"end":10381.105,"text":"市長你講到了我們的郵局我們的融匯系統那事實上我們在講這個數位落差非常大那這些高齡者在網路的使用率他其實只有一半而已那近半的一個65歲以上的長者是不會用網路的那不會用網路你怎麼樣避免就是說代操作的一個風險"},{"start":10382.826,"end":10404.312,"text":"這個主委你有沒有想到就是說其實超過一半甚至就是更高六成以上他就是不會操作網路那所有就是在這一個數位落差這麼大的一個過程當中局長還講到了有沒有什麼樣的一個更好的服務來服務老人那你只能靠郵局你只能靠農會"},{"start":10405.512,"end":10426.908,"text":"那事實上郵局跟農會這個普及性的一個服務讓數位弱勢的一個民眾他也可以接受到一個便利實體的一個服務的那個機會那可是在這裡我想請問主委就是說你未來在科技金融裡頭是不是也會一樣就是把它放到郵局放到農漁會勒?"},{"start":10428.978,"end":10430.719,"text":"以前我母親在某個縣市應該是大概6、7千塊"},{"start":10456.574,"end":10480.312,"text":"6、7千塊其實現在已經8千多了其實老人到這個所有的銀行系統裡頭來的時候他就是存錢提錢非常簡單非常的一個簡單好那既然你在偏鄉的郵局跟農誼會的信用部你在還沒有普及信以前你有沒有考慮就是降低他們的手續費呢對確實跨行提款的部分是會有一個那個手續費這部分的話"},{"start":10484.782,"end":10500.408,"text":"我們可以來演繹這個事情可以演繹好 謝謝主委謝謝那這接著就是說金融的科技你要開放那我們知道在這開放的過程當中我們付出的一個社會成本也相當的高那是不是也必須要考慮到防詐"},{"start":10501.408,"end":10525.927,"text":"那你看喔在金融科技業方便的時候是誰被騙的比較多反而不是老人被騙的比較多因為我們不會用嘛其實反而是年輕人被騙的比較多那我們從一個數據裡頭來看從2017年它的一個20億一直到了就是說我們現階段的80億這個7年當中增加了60億增加了4倍"},{"start":10527.328,"end":10556.187,"text":"主委您怎麼看待的就是說新銀貨幣的一個詐騙是金融的一個創新還是一個詐騙的一個陷阱你看這個窮出不窮的一個詐騙是不是我們覺得說在近4年的詐騙案從66件暴增到245件那主委如果金管會目前推出了新銀貨幣的專法沒有辦法有效的去管理這些沒有牌的一個公司"},{"start":10556.787,"end":10578.502,"text":"那是不是會出現像朱鑫業一樣每一排的公司就是最大那如果我在這裡要請教金管會如果就是說你沒有辦法用監管股票市場的一個方式高標準的一個監理吸引貨幣的一個平台那你如果都做不到的話你為什麼要給他一個合法的地位呢"},{"start":10580.183,"end":10596.053,"text":"其實這樣可以從兩個角度來思考第一個我們想說現在我們對於這個所謂的虛擬資產業者的管理都是遵照國際的一個步驟因為他們在發展中我們一定先從洗錢開始洗錢房子開始那接下來為什麼我們第4階段要訂定專法"},{"start":10597.214,"end":10600.136,"text":"主委,我想你們準備的、設想的這個都在這個計畫中在進行我想在這裡請問主委就是說如果今天有一個股票要上市"},{"start":10624.068,"end":10647.137,"text":"那你要受到多少的監理呢?一個股票要上市你要受到多少監理?你只要這樣回答我就好了現在股票上市的部分呢第一個他一定是公發公發完還要上市上市要經過我們的交易所的審查這個部分他是有一個蠻嚴謹蠻長的一個過程才有辦法一個建商如果要推薦你買賣一支股票的話要受到多少的監理?"},{"start":10649.199,"end":10677.298,"text":"當然這個牽涉到你今天是不是像比如說你是有沒有這個執照就像我們對我們要推薦股票的話我們按照我們的現在投進投顧法應該是有他的規範是這麼多的一個規範這麼多的一個監理那你的金融科技的發展也應該要兼顧到就是數位的一個弱勢這個才會避免掉就是金融科技的緩成為金融詐騙的一個工具那是當然他變成是一個有牌的我家的老人叫你騙了了"},{"start":10679.259,"end":10696.762,"text":"本來沒白的時候還可以就是說這個銀行沒有認證現在他只要就是有了這個你們給他的一個合法的地位的時候騙得更慘那你是不是你要付出的詐騙的一個成本會更高呢?"},{"start":10697.222,"end":10711.872,"text":"其實我們過去的經驗的預期是所謂有牌就是機構納管機構納管以後它必然增加它至少它內控還有法尊上面的要求再來它相應的也是會有明確的法律的法則我想"},{"start":10712.712,"end":10732.742,"text":"納管這件事情實際上一定會大幅的下降剛剛講還沒納管之前他可能導致的負面的效果有可能納管以後會大幅的下降嗎?就是詐騙會大幅的下降嗎?就是說剛剛因為機構所產生的因為他比如說剛剛委員所指證說納管以後他有了這個牌肆無忌憚我想這個在過去經驗比較不會發生倒是那些"},{"start":10733.322,"end":10733.642,"text":"總裁有請楊總裁"},{"start":10755.834,"end":10767.601,"text":"在這裡請教總裁,空盤不斷地往上那存款的利率會不會過低昨天我們的CPI就是公布是2.42那這個相比會不會過低呢?"},{"start":10770.562,"end":10794.998,"text":"對啦,就是說我知道委員在講的就是說是實質利率的問題對,實質利率當然啦,我們中央銀行也有關注這個實質利率的問題但是就是說我們如果跟其他國家來比較的話事實上也不是所有其他國家的實質利率都是這樣的啦"},{"start":10795.718,"end":10816.027,"text":"因為第一個就是說好因為我們的通膨會慢慢的會下來通膨會慢慢的下來會會會這麼有信心對我們的Protection到目前為止我們特別是像Core來講的話就核心CPI核心CPI現在都已經降到2%以下了"},{"start":10817.162,"end":10832.652,"text":"核心CPI我跟你說齁主席你不可以齁只看到核心的齁核心的一個問題核心你扣掉糧食你扣掉了這些力能啊對啦對啦其實這個就是十一住宿啊我想我沒有錯"},{"start":10833.592,"end":10848.1,"text":"人民的感受跟中央銀行的一個貨幣政策所關注的那個指標好像是不一樣啦對啦這個我同意這個同意我同意你同意我同意我同意委員就是說你看大家的感受都跟我們中央銀行在講就是說這個2%"},{"start":10849.761,"end":10852.443,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說中央銀行關注物價但是呢我們不會就是說單獨關注某一項的物價啦"},{"start":10868.912,"end":10881.7,"text":"當然當然我們是關注所有的物價的平均沒有錯沒有錯所以就是說在這裡也要跟這個總裁做一個建議考慮有沒有機會就是加息這個是對於通盤有一個整體上的一個"},{"start":10886.062,"end":10906.7,"text":"那個影響的那就是貨幣的政策我們也希望就是你考慮到當然你說你有考慮嘛可是這個大家感受不到所以希望就是說在最後就是也要求啦金管會就是評估協助這個長者學習安全的使用就是數位的一個金融的服務的一個具體的一個作為還有尤其"},{"start":10907.461,"end":10923.655,"text":"跟融融會信用部的合作提高實質的金融的服務在這個偏鄉覆蓋率的一個可行性那金管會也應該要考慮是不是用更高的一個標準就是來監管虛擬貨幣交易平臺好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝主席我們請金管會主委有請彭主委"},{"start":10940.317,"end":10941.138,"text":"你知道上半年什麼意思嗎?"},{"start":10962.769,"end":10963.81,"text":"請問你們現在還要到道路去做精檢嗎?"},{"start":10972.51,"end":10993.955,"text":"我們對市場的管理我們是會按照我們的表定的程序來做啦吼那我們還是對於所有的金融機構在不管在各地都是我們希望能夠做一個檢查的這樣一個程序講得很好沒有回答來回去做嗎有沒有就是我們還是希望去檢查是是嗎希望什麼時候"},{"start":10994.929,"end":11001.894,"text":"我們因為這個部分畢竟是不是我們能夠全部決定還要那你有向金管會對不起你有向陸委會提出申請嗎?"},{"start":11003.275,"end":11028.935,"text":"這部分的話我們是有按照程序在進行中有申請嗎?我們有去朝就是往那邊要去檢查但是還沒申請現在還在過程中來檢查屏障現在竟然不是要退休的話再回答我們都依照程序向陸委會先報備已經有申請了多多報備了有在報備打算什麼時候去還是會不會因為兩岸關係不佳就不去了?"},{"start":11031.616,"end":11051.512,"text":"我們看對方的答覆不是啊,如果對方給你去,你會不會因為兩岸關係不好就不去啊?對方如果...欸那個,如果會昨天說什麼要帶什麼新的電腦、新的平板、新的什麼東西,恐嚇人民啊?你們這樣怎麼檢查勒?沒有,如果對方同意我們就會過去,嘿。你們就會過去,你會帶新的電腦、新的手機跟新的平板嗎?你會嗎?主委,你會嗎?"},{"start":11056.82,"end":11057.16,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11069.628,"end":11070.088,"text":"市長有來吧請您市長"},{"start":11103.201,"end":11120.512,"text":"市長好我想跟你討論金融數位發展數位建設發展的事宜為了鼓勵電信事業在全國設置行動及固定寬頻網路你們有各項補助辦法嗎?在電信事業普及服務基金還有前瞻預算有在做嗎?你知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":11122.011,"end":11123.212,"text":"你不知道?對,我不知道,抱歉"},{"start":11141.921,"end":11142.121,"text":"補助偏鄉"},{"start":11161.427,"end":11174.117,"text":"防救災的這個也很重要嘛像我們昨天全島大停電這個行動通訊這個基礎建設計畫你看看金門、連江、澎湖又再次的沒有把我們金門列進去111年跟114年都是555那澎湖咧?256萬、635萬"},{"start":11176.539,"end":11178.159,"text":"報告委員,這件事情我們回去會檢討,那我們會再提供書面報告給委員"},{"start":11205.05,"end":11226.985,"text":"一個禮拜一個禮拜之內很好很好那你不是找救兵上來怎麼還沒有辦法回答是連下面都不知道嗎因為今天來的我們以為是要講那個數位貨幣的所以我們今天來的那個新的這個次長到這個各個委員會我跟您切磋一下了到待會上來回答不知道是會上全國新聞的"},{"start":11230.187,"end":11256.583,"text":"請問從民國104年開始金門就四年中間計劃就提到要把我們金門建設成為E-island先鋒智慧島這個就是讓比如說每個人到金門去要參觀、要旅遊的時候就馬上就可以有無線網路知道怎麼玩什麼這個是其實很重要的那我們希望數法部在這個部分可以持續的大力補助我們數位基礎建設沒有問題吧"},{"start":11258.606,"end":11286.016,"text":"是沒問題吧可以可以喔沒問題喔不要再下次再讓我看到這個後面我們別的縣市離島我只跟離島比喔別的縣市都有然後金門都是0、0、0這樣子我沒有辦法接受可以嗎是可以好好一個禮拜吧好謝謝您喔然後你那個報告裡頭請告訴我未來你要如何強化金門數位發展的具體策略是沒有問題喔謝謝委員一個禮拜可以喔好謝謝次長喔好請回座喔那我們那個金管會"},{"start":11287.605,"end":11308.433,"text":"主委,這個發展金融科技的創新實驗的這個困境你們報告第三頁裡面有提到金融科技創新實驗核准9案撥回2案業者自行撤回5案這是在你們報告所提到的嗎?是的那你認為說從2018年實施到今天一共核准9案的成績單這個你滿意嗎?"},{"start":11310.164,"end":11329.234,"text":"其實這有些結構性的問題因為我們堅尼沙盒只要處理法律所不許的實驗因為當一個落地通常他真的如果出了沙盒以外他如果法律沒有做相同步的修正他也是沒辦法做所以這是一個結構性的問題最後還經過大院同意"},{"start":11332.896,"end":11358.129,"text":"主委很厲害,又講了很多,你滿意嗎?我想這個當然任何一個人看到這個數字都跟當時的預期應該是有落差就不滿意嘛,那有結構性比如說要修法嘛,比如說相關的制度要改變嘛對,我們已經有做委外的研究,而且我們內部也在檢討可以怎麼樣修改讓它變得更有功能比較可以推動嘛,因為這是政府的政策嘛對嘛沒錯嘛,那這是你們的責任吧,誰的責任啊?"},{"start":11359.622,"end":11382.183,"text":"這是我們主管的法律讓這個推動得更好是不是金管會的責任那當然那當然你的責任你多久可以把你那個計畫給做出來我們現在正在我剛才跟委員報告就是我們有請回外做那個整個通盤而且我們最近也都跟金融科技業者座談然後希望能夠找到可以未來改善的方法"},{"start":11382.824,"end":11389.861,"text":"啊,多久呢?像你要修法嘛,歡迎送來財政委員會啊,要先到院會去啊,你有沒有一個時間啊,要一個目標導向啊?"},{"start":11392.496,"end":11413.885,"text":"我想這個我們的委外報告很快就會出來了就是他們過來那我們就會趕快來檢視很快是指一個禮拜齁應該是7月啦7月就是這個月齁接著後續你們提出相關的這個按照這個來做修法應該一個月內也可以做到吧這個可能還要經過因為修法送進來送進來就好修法是我們送進來的"},{"start":11415.886,"end":11429.872,"text":"應該是還要經過這個行政院?對對對行政院對對對所以這個程序可能如果修法可能沒那麼快所以我們才會想說我們可不可以用好那麻煩你定一個目標好嗎目標好嗎讓本席了解好嗎因為我們都希望"},{"start":11431.713,"end":11448.465,"text":"我們在這裡為國家社會做一件事嘛尤其是金融創新的方面我對彭主委的期待真的是很高的但是我在民間聽到不是關於您的就是說對金管會長久以來很多創新的想法沒有就是比較限制性的這個做法讓國內的金融創新沒有辦法"},{"start":11449.426,"end":11453.289,"text":"金融科技的發展也是那個總統政見之一然後也是我們現在執行的重點"},{"start":11474.763,"end":11495.631,"text":"我用2013年櫃買中心成立創櫃板來當例子這之前事實上在座也聽過我也有講過了就是你們成立了原來創櫃板成立的目的就是提供創新創意的非公開發行的微型企業做這個籌資功能提供股權籌資功能但不具交易功能你看這10年來的成績你看看這算成績嗎你滿意嗎"},{"start":11497.612,"end":11526.483,"text":"103年到112年登錄從61到現在一二十家申請加速從剛開始大家滿懷期待一百一十四家到像溜滑梯一直下來你們對這個成績滿意嗎當然我想任何人看到這條曲線應該都不是預期的啦反正我們以台灣的應該是不滿意啦應該是希望還有說是不滿意嘛你看從剛剛到現在剛剛講到現在都不滿意嘛但不滿意的責任是在你啊"},{"start":11527.003,"end":11527.904,"text":"有沒有考慮開放由民間設立創櫃板"},{"start":11546.005,"end":11548.887,"text":"金融科技的發展涉及銀行及證據、保險局相關的,那涉促這個來講是不是還不夠?"},{"start":11568.679,"end":11592.244,"text":"當然當然不夠但是我們還是受限於現有的條件當然很多委員也希望說我們儘管會不怕做事是怕沒有資源所以未來當然如果說有機會的話我們當然希望擴編更更大更有清楚的規模這個我們一定是支持只要你們做得好是不是然後選擇加入這些是很好的但是現在你們內部官僚體系大家不知道會不會按照平台啦這我們會盡量來破除我們希望真的能夠吸納意見"},{"start":11594.004,"end":11604.127,"text":"好謝謝我對主委有充分的心也很高的期待啦那主委報告給我們我們希望你們具體落實去做好嗎是謝謝謝謝委員繼續謝謝謝謝主委謝謝陳昱臻委員的質詢接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢好請彭主委還有梁總裁還有梁總裁嗎梁總裁梁總裁"},{"start":11628.706,"end":11647.695,"text":"委員好是兩位好我想虛擬貨幣這個大概是在最近我們在設醒房法的時候一直在討論的事情那虛擬資產現在已經列為醒房的對象是那世界上各種不同的虛擬資產非常的多那目前國際市場上面有所謂的穩定幣"},{"start":11649.335,"end":11666.6,"text":"我想今天要談數位貨幣穩定幣USDT或者USDC目前是跟美金掛鉤也有新加坡跟香港都在做穩定幣虛擬資產業者目前有在規劃台幣的穩定幣我不知道兩位的看法如何"},{"start":11667.04,"end":11692.866,"text":"主委如果按照當然比如說今天另外主題CTPC是央行的權貨假設一般的所謂的穩定幣我們剛才講剛才委員提出的我只問你的態度如何我們現在在我們現在規劃裡面這個部分我們現在在洗房上面我們的主管有兩個要件一個叫做具有金融投資還有支付的功能這是我們現在金管會所納管的一個基礎虛擬貨幣也算嘛"},{"start":11694.586,"end":11716.355,"text":"對,所以剛剛講那個穩定幣呢就比較趨向的是具有支付的功能這個就是我們納管的對象好,來,總裁你一定不贊成嘛我想就是說這個穩定幣穩定幣是虛擬貨幣的一種所以就是說據我了解就是說我們監管會他的態度因為現在就是說要對虛擬貨幣"},{"start":11722.978,"end":11732.384,"text":"要對虛擬貨幣來監管現在那個我沒有什麼意見所以世界上有這樣的情形我知道我知道所以我就說對那現在穩定幣第二個階段就是說來看看"},{"start":11737.739,"end":11738.319,"text":"謝謝,我想接下來就是請主委"},{"start":11766.229,"end":11791.018,"text":"遠見雜誌在今年5月到6月之間有進行台灣虛擬資產使用行為的調查裡面很清楚我們76%的受訪者是在國外的交易所交易80%認為說國際平台應該來台落地我想問一下主委現在納管的虛擬資產業者有多少現在我們大概是26 26家那有多少人使用戶是用國內的資產你們知道"},{"start":11792.968,"end":11812.247,"text":"這部分我們還要再去了解還不知道,所以你們也沒資料如果已經納管了,不應該沒資料是不是同仁要跟主委報告一下多少人,現在納管的業者有多少客戶第二個,那你有沒有掌握現在在國內使用國外平台的客戶數量這部分的話也沒有"},{"start":11813.51,"end":11836.546,"text":"很抱歉,因為這個部分我們現在工會才剛成立啊,那我們正在...對,這件事情如果我們已經把他們納入我們洗房的管理對象我們連最基本的data都沒有這件事情是很可怕的而且國際上的交易平台目前為止很想進來台灣但是碰到了很多困難,不知道為什麼是不想納管他還是他們沒有資格被納管"},{"start":11837.316,"end":11858.281,"text":"我們現在是因為針對我們現在剛剛講委員講說我們現在有很多家在申請我的意思是如果國內的民眾大部分使用國外的平台而這些國外的平台也因為在台灣落地我們是不是應該非常積極的趕快把它納管然後來做管理接下去你才可以控管它的洗房"},{"start":11859.341,"end":11860.863,"text":"對,這部分的話其實我知道還有很多家公司還在審核中"},{"start":11876.704,"end":11897.39,"text":"大家都想要納管請金管會積極一點如果我們民眾在使用它就是一個存在的事實其實我上任以後也有跟集局在這方面我每次督促他金管會我只能說前面的立場非常非常不積極而且假裝沒看見就像我想講沒看見沒納管就不關我的事現在洗房壓進去了"},{"start":11899.209,"end":11899.369,"text":"是!是!"},{"start":11917.32,"end":11946.224,"text":"快一點第二個納管現在既然有機制有26家但是其他要申請的完全進不來我當然知道有些國內的業者有意見或者是有市場的競爭我不知道但是該納管就納管如果他是國人在用的你就要好好管第二個地下的會對現在我想知道一下目前為止剛剛講的我們洗房加了很多的"},{"start":11947.268,"end":11973.221,"text":"項目包括第三方支付包括電子支付包括剛剛講的虛擬資產所以洗房的業務非常非常的大那儘管會在地下匯款畫案為名的部分其實有做了很多努力尤其是移工的部分也開放了四家非銀行的小額匯兌的業者但是現在為止目前為止這些移工其實人數有大概62萬多然後一年的匯款金額"},{"start":11974.341,"end":11998.913,"text":"已經達到630億今年可能會達到800億其實它是一個很好的方法額度很小然後很方便因為這些移工他們可以去7-11按一個鍵24小時可以匯款回去那金額在每個月只有五萬塊的額度這樣子的話讓他們可以把便宜而且方便的匯款回家不用像以前全部都是走地下金融但是"},{"start":12000.114,"end":12016.035,"text":"一百一十二年起訴了一家匯存公司用APP配的方式也就是APP的方式非法的提供了菲律賓的移工小額的匯兌業務所以有一家被起訴了我不知道市場上還有沒有很多家所以"},{"start":12017.211,"end":12038.885,"text":"這些可能成為洗錢工具金管會有沒有在列管我想現在剛才委員都非常清楚我們現在有四家的這個合法合法然後中間我們也申請過幾家我們也否準了幾家因為條件不夠對但是他們還在做對這部分的話我想說因為我們銀行局這邊所以這是你管的嗎非法匯兌是誰管非法的匯兌業者是誰管"},{"start":12043.493,"end":12056.796,"text":"對,他如果說是非法匯兌的話因為他現在還不是我們納管的機構應該就刑事責任我們會...所以就是法務部管對,所以我們知道的話我們就會...總裁,你不要站在旁邊非法匯兌對你有很大的影響你有沒有在管?"},{"start":12058.911,"end":12060.632,"text":"接下來又要開放印度移工了"},{"start":12083.664,"end":12100.454,"text":"接下來有可能更多的白領工作者到台灣來其實外匯這件事情就是剛剛講不要讓它在地下讓它能夠被列管如果要洗房要管就要好好管而且我們知道它存在我們不能假裝沒看見所以現在的問題是這些APP其實都在架上來速發時間暫停速發布"},{"start":12118.914,"end":12147.055,"text":"非法匯兌的業者其實都是用APP在經營那這些APP目前為止其實都很方便可能也都設在國外那剛剛講我們看到這種非法匯兌業者不是他們兩個管那是不是你管報告委員現在並不是我們管所以結論就是沒人管除非有人檢舉到法務部去 對嗎還是訴發部我們相關的這個部分有沒有做巡查呢 沒有"},{"start":12148.072,"end":12176.596,"text":"也很難是你們沒辦法管因為它都在Google Play或Apple Store上面好啦今天我要問的就是如果我們要把洗房好好管地下會對必須要能夠被掀開來是以前連銀樓業者都是地下會對現在開始比較多人走正規的管道我也希望書發部針對這種非法的APP也有一個巡查的功能好嗎是最後一個就是"},{"start":12178.373,"end":12179.463,"text":"現在您出發部請回"},{"start":12182.725,"end":12209.084,"text":"彭主委最後就是我上次你來拜訪我的時候我要跟你提過的一個最重要的是金融研訓院對於臺灣金融生活調查裡面針對年輕世代的金融素養低落這件事情非常的嚴重甚至已經高達81.3的比例金融素養極低或低臺灣的年輕人81%的金融素養極低這個問題是出在哪裡"},{"start":12213.282,"end":12230.462,"text":"呃,這個齁,其實我們呃,誠如委員講,我們的大家的金融素養極低或低百分之八十一而且尤其是越年輕的越低對,我想這是當然也有可能衡量的問題不過我們儘管會在整個金融教育上面我們是做很多努力也許努力不夠"},{"start":12231.082,"end":12255.84,"text":"所以主委我具體的建議時間我的時間快到了但是我要說學校是一個管道我們在台北市的時候我在擔任副市長我們去找了很多的銀行協助捐了一些錢給NGO他們由台大的教授還有台大的業師到台北市的高中去開金融素養課程現在已經成為選修課也就是說如果我們可以在學校"},{"start":12256.42,"end":12279.502,"text":"通過工會他們本來就有企業社會責任然後協助你們來做而不是單單要求金管會來做甚至學校其實非常非常的歡迎尤其是學生來說但是對他們來說完全是一個新的世界就像您第一次來跟我說英國的小學生從一年級就開始學什麼是貨幣、什麼是信用卡、什麼是股票"},{"start":12280.183,"end":12303.108,"text":"如果我們的小學到大都不知道,他到大學以後就不會有金融素養,對吧?謝謝,謝謝委員主任,我會請中官處跟我們研訓院怎麼樣跟學校的資源做計畫。學校資源還有業界的資源,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝黃昌山委員的質詢,接著我們請李昆城委員、李昇星委員、李昆城委員不在,接著我們請吳立華委員質詢。"},{"start":12312.972,"end":12315.3,"text":"謝謝主席先請楊杭總裁有請楊總裁"},{"start":12324.174,"end":12352.58,"text":"吳委員早總裁早關於央行在2019年你們就開始研究建制這個央行的數位貨幣所以我們可以說它應該是一個新的議題那為什麼說它是非常新的議題因為你們也有委外做一個問卷調查結果呢一般民眾對這個央行要發行的數位貨幣他的認知可以說只有一成的人聽過"},{"start":12355.3,"end":12380.106,"text":"這樣的一個國際趨勢大概我們也了解你們的態度那因為你們有特別提到我們也有看到因為我們發現像這一些在推動的大多是金融基礎設施比較不足的國家啦那比較先進的國家呢反而是類似我們現在的態度就是準備然後建構然後就是要因應"},{"start":12381.446,"end":12384.972,"text":"我想說的就是說你們央行在做的這個數位貨幣呢它的一個架構就是類似我們的實體貨幣它是雙層的央行發給銀行銀行再發給人民"},{"start":12396.79,"end":12425.766,"text":"那你們做的這個初步架構呢也有去看了一下它的介面它的功能例如像是記名不記名的錢包或者是去做一些兌換轉帳消費等等等我是覺得說想要請教您一下您覺得就是簡單解釋一下這個數位新台幣跟現在使用的新台幣做的電子支付它最大最根本的差別是什麼"},{"start":12426.286,"end":12426.987,"text":"因為民眾不懂"},{"start":12436.939,"end":12465.338,"text":"是不是?對,就是我們現在要做數位貨幣跟電子支付好了,這樣子比。那我來嘗試回答,就是說委員你這樣在講就是說,譬如說我們就是說Apple Pay,你知道Apple Pay也是新台幣的那個什麼的那個的電子支付嘛,Apple Pay,NinePay,台灣Pay,這個都是。但是呢,這些的支付呢都是用銀行的貨幣。"},{"start":12467,"end":12468.381,"text":"中央銀行發行的貨幣跟他用商業銀行的貨幣去轉的基本上還是不一樣的"},{"start":12482.157,"end":12490.669,"text":"這樣子我想是很清楚的解釋那你們的推動規劃我是看到去年開始你們就是做委外的問卷調查那也預計從明年開始要開始辦公聽會、說明會等等"},{"start":12497.219,"end":12516.877,"text":"那你們應該要去辦公聽會、要去辦說明會應該會有基本資料吧?會有縮帖帶進去吧?會,我們會準備,我會有一個一套全套的資料對,那我現在就是想要了解一下因為你們在問卷調查,你們是針對不同的對象有不同的訪問的內容"},{"start":12518.959,"end":12539.331,"text":"那在這個當中我想一般大眾當然是不了解大概只有一成那產業界呢大概有多少人聽過了解產業界比較高高是多高這個我沒有關係啦大概是五成啦他是比較高那政府機關呢你覺得政府機關更高"},{"start":12541.492,"end":12558.38,"text":"對,我看到的資料也是政府機關接受度最高那我來說那個請教您一下因為我們仔細來看一般民眾當然是不認識但是做後撤之後我們發現稍加說明他有很大的一個使用意願"},{"start":12560.421,"end":12586.897,"text":"我們再來看那如果說問他的一個使用需求他們表達的大概我們可以看到接受度最高的覺得很好的應該來做的是那些有接受政府救濟的或者是中低收入部或者是越來越多我們可能會申請租金補貼的這些人然後還有一些創新功能所以請問一下這一些調查出來的需求你們有開始在做規劃了嗎"},{"start":12588.058,"end":12607.012,"text":"都有接納嗎?我跟委員報告這個就是說我們在這裡面的功能裡面我們跟數位部呢我們跟數位部現在就是說要合作一個就是說要發行這個數位券那數位券就是剛剛你現在對看起來數位券應該是券售度最高"},{"start":12608.433,"end":12626.803,"text":"對對對對所以呢這個就是說我們的CBDC的要踏出第一步他就是要從這裡來受試驗好我們也希望這個能夠成功那再請教一下齁那你們要下去做說明會那調查出來的其實大部分的人呢是擔心隱私跟個資的問題"},{"start":12628.624,"end":12654.086,"text":"所以這個部分我不曉得說你們對於這些資安的認證那怎麼樣的狀況下才調用資料等等有在做規劃了嗎有有有都有在做規劃那再請教一下我們看到產業界他的一個調查結果的衝擊我們發現基層的金融機構最擔心感覺到他受到的影響會最大請問一下基層金融機構是類似哪一些"},{"start":12655.127,"end":12667.843,"text":"我們所說的基層金融機構一般來講就是說我們的龍漁會信用部還有就是說我們的信用他擔心他的角色會弱化嗎那請問你們有在規劃要怎麼協助嗎"},{"start":12672.248,"end":12693.193,"text":"如果說一個銀行體系就是說我們的金融體系如果說足夠健全的話也就是說不會發生銀行擠兌的這種事件的話基本上他對CBDC的發行應該是不會有好那我這樣子一直問都好像都有準備了那當然政府機關我看起來他應該是覺得最輕鬆的因為他收付款的業務可能會輕鬆許多接受度比較高"},{"start":12701.755,"end":12728.988,"text":"那法律學姐的意見呢他們是認為說應該要修法有要修法嗎那當然如果說假設說我們決定要那個話那它所涉及到的很多的法都要特別是專案一覽法可能都要修法所以有已經在啟動修法的內容我們現在也就是說是在在法律方面呢我們也在做準備那什麼時候送行政院沒有沒有現在還沒有啊因為呢所以8次還沒一票沒有沒有因為"},{"start":12729.768,"end":12745.297,"text":"因為就是說我們的學界法律學界呢他也有他的看法那所以呢我們在我們的空聽會裡面呢我們就會那聽起來好像很積極啦那真的要走到修法又感覺八字還沒一點"},{"start":12747.458,"end":12766.011,"text":"好,那請教一下齁那這些資訊科技的學者呢我也要關心一下因為這個會有數位落差的問題嗎?有的人買不起手機啊那我們很多的地方網路不通啊那可以去做離線支付嗎?這些有規劃嗎?所以離線支委有在規劃離線支委有在規劃而且呢"},{"start":12769.533,"end":12769.693,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12797.708,"end":12814.258,"text":"剛才我聽了央行就是介紹準備發行數位貨幣的一些規劃跟想法那我想要特別為偏鄉來請教一下因為我們有央行總裁你們都是金融專業的人員我們已經有看到一些專題報導"},{"start":12816.039,"end":12826.918,"text":"像是中國他們是一個高度電子支付的國家很多的現在的國小的學生是從出生到現在幾乎沒有看過實體貨幣"},{"start":12829.079,"end":12845.152,"text":"那麼很多的老師也反映這個反映在學校課程的學習其實是有很大的問題狂論他們的金錢觀、理財觀、消費觀那我們看到像日本這個國家他很堅持還是使用實體的貨幣"},{"start":12847.393,"end":12874.011,"text":"我是想要請教大家因為我們有所謂的馬太效應我們很擔心像這樣的一個資本社會的這一些的發展的制度工具會讓富者更富貧窮的人會更窮那會讓有成本的人他可以全拿那這些沒有資本的人可能會難以翻身所以在這個部分我想要特別請教一下我們金管會主委"},{"start":12874.651,"end":12892.476,"text":"因為我們在教育上有所謂的一個認知發展的階段可能是從感覺運動期然後一直到國小的具體的操作期我們都會回憶我們過去學數學可能都要拿那種代幣來輔助學習我們怎麼樣認識這些貨幣"},{"start":12896.457,"end":12922.578,"text":"那更一直要到最後我們才會有所謂的形式的抽象的這種操作期可是我想要請教一下金管會我們在這個部分未來面對這樣的一個數位貨幣電子支付的發展我不曉得說金管會有沒有做過什麼樣的分析研究規劃有沒有找過數發部啊教育部啊一起來研究這些問題"},{"start":12923.559,"end":12950.965,"text":"市報委員我必須那個那個那個據實說我上來到現在我我沒有接受到訊息但並不代表沒有啦也許我們同仁可以說一下是跟委員報告我們目前是還沒有做這個研究但是我們有規劃在明年的時候會做一個金融素養的調查然後也會同時針對就是民眾針對這個數位金融的部分他們目前有碰到些什麼樣的議題所以會從這裡面再來去做研究"},{"start":12951.665,"end":12969.11,"text":"我們當然要與時俱進時間也到了但是我請我們的央行金管會跟我們的數位發布還是根據我幾點的訴求我是希望說能夠針對這一些所謂的電子支付已經在普及的國家去做一下他們的正反面的影響來提供我們做一個參考"},{"start":12972.051,"end":12988.657,"text":"那也希望能夠去評估對偏鄉弱勢族群可能帶來的正反面的影響因為我們不知道這個影響是好還是不好但是我們必須要知道未來這樣的發展會不會去造成我們對偏鄉及弱勢族群的一個傷害"},{"start":12990.098,"end":13003.939,"text":"還有我們的教育的這些單位我們都希望說能夠一起來做跨部會的一個討論因為我們其實看過去的教育我們的學校教育其實是不教不鼓勵如何賺錢啦"},{"start":13005.3,"end":13027.458,"text":"這是被隱晦不談的問題那未來這樣的一個趨勢發展它會形成什麼樣的一個落差還是說形成一個翻身的一個機會我們都不得而知所以我們希望這三個部會你們能夠去做這樣的一個報告出來那兩個月內書面答覆可以嗎?好,可以好,謝謝謝謝吳明豪我們質詢接著請謝亦鳳委員謝亦鳳委員謝亦鳳委員不在接著請盧明才、盧昭偉質詢"},{"start":13038.646,"end":13060.574,"text":"主席各位委員、初列席官員大家好主席可不可以請央行總裁有請楊金龍總裁以及數位發展部林怡靜有請林次農委員早金龍研訓院的林副院長大家好各位研訓院林副院長"},{"start":13063.474,"end":13084.755,"text":"楊總裁我們現在要開始發行數位新台幣意味著我手上的這個鈔票即將要告別慢慢的減少這是從大概我們50年前到現在現在"},{"start":13087.728,"end":13108.895,"text":"新台幣使用的情況跟現在一般民眾所用所謂的這個手機支付或者是代收代支等等很多的新的產品都出現了那現在新台幣的使用比率大概是剩下多少?這個"},{"start":13114.948,"end":13116.889,"text":"3兆多比率大概是多少?"},{"start":13145.168,"end":13145.448,"text":"禮略贊同的日記。"},{"start":13167.453,"end":13183.042,"text":"不斷的引導大家盡量不要用紙張統一發票用電子雲端的發票不要去接觸錢因為這個接觸啊鈔票變成是細菌一個很重要傳染的來源"},{"start":13183.422,"end":13198.526,"text":"不過委員講到這裡的時候我也借這個機會來澄清一下 來說明一下事實上呢在COVID-19的時候很多先進國家特別像歐洲像英格蘭還有像ECB歐元區的央行"},{"start":13205.168,"end":13223.445,"text":"他們跟我們中央銀行都一樣的,都是很關心是不是鈔卷會COVID的這個virus呢,是不是會透過鈔卷來傳遞出去。結果呢,他們那個的12實驗的結果呢,不會,很低。"},{"start":13224.682,"end":13225.985,"text":"請問一下總裁,這個病菌停留在"},{"start":13238.275,"end":13251.447,"text":"一千塊停留在鈔票上,它的存活時間有多久?很短,我想我要請我們的發行局,當時我們針對這個問題,我們都討論很久,我們也自己,來來來,我請我們的發行局來說明一下"},{"start":13262.386,"end":13278.313,"text":"因為大家都覺得這個市場有時候流流這個夜市什麼出來那起來感覺都髒髒兮兮的怕怕的報告委員這個Bengal England還是BIS他們都有研究其實鈔券的這個"},{"start":13280.287,"end":13281.428,"text":"我們看到全世界慢慢的"},{"start":13309.11,"end":13332.537,"text":"不使用鈔票用電子支付用手機支付變成是一個全世界先進國家也必須要走的一條道路是啦沒有錯委員講的都沒有錯事實上台灣也是在朝這一的方向在走那請問一下總裁最後我們看到了剛剛我手上拿的那個鈔票會不會消失不見"},{"start":13334.155,"end":13355.716,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說在我們可預見的將來我們可預見的將來鈔券還是會存在的現金還是會存在的那以10年前跟現在來比的話我們現在真正使用鈔票的比率是佔平常交易量的剩下多少%"},{"start":13356.917,"end":13362.262,"text":"但是我知道它是在下降的這個下降的比率快不快?已經超過大概剩下不到三四十趴了"},{"start":13377.873,"end":13379.674,"text":"我們同事給我們那個我們就說2017年到2023年國內現金的支付金額由6.24兆降至4.03兆"},{"start":13392.816,"end":13393.756,"text":"非現金的支付由3.09兆增至7.27兆"},{"start":13419.881,"end":13423.503,"text":"楊總裁,當你拿到了我們未來在台灣使用的數位新台幣,不知道長得什麼樣子?"},{"start":13442.686,"end":13465.06,"text":"數位新台幣,你是看不到的。看不到?是啊,你是看不到,因為它就是一個,就像一個虛擬的東西。可是我們那天去財經公司,你給我一張...但是它有錢包啊,沒有,那個是卡片。那個是卡片,那個卡片是在,我們有一個設計的那個呢,是什麼?就是..."},{"start":13466,"end":13468.002,"text":"總裁你有沒有帶那個數位新台幣的卡片?"},{"start":13488.142,"end":13500.048,"text":"沒有啦,今天抱歉啦那一天是給各位參觀的那個是不是借看一下馬上就帶了齁對啦對啦這個啦可不可以借我看一下喔來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":13518.041,"end":13527.619,"text":"手上拿到這張卡這是台灣未來發行的數位新台幣希望無窮請問楊總裁"},{"start":13530.462,"end":13548.093,"text":"當你拿到這張卡片開始使用了你第一筆在台灣你要購買什麼不過我跟委員報告這個是講離線的啦那基本上我們要發展的CBDC他是在手機裡面的啦"},{"start":13548.433,"end":13566.434,"text":"他是虛擬的啦他是數位的啦那這個呢只是說是一個離線的時候呢你可以用手機也可以用卡片那這個卡片是而不是說CPTC就是用卡片來發行的啦這個就必須要做一個明確的那個說明啦"},{"start":13567.691,"end":13595.943,"text":"那請問總裁未來的這張卡片它的最大額度是多少現在還沒有還沒有我們現在就是說我記得我記得委員也在講就是說因為有有記名不記名還有就是說額度嘛那一般來講的話都是說一萬塊嘛那我也記得委員就說這個一萬塊恐怕是太少啦不過呢這個是因為現在目前都還沒有"},{"start":13597.423,"end":13625.29,"text":"做最後的一個決定的時候事實上委員的一個意見我們會參考我們希望這個速度可以快一點因為數位台灣現在的院長他現在說是AI行動內閣如果行動內閣所有的事情這個包括使用鈔票還用30年50年的那個思維的話就跟不上潮流了"},{"start":13626.53,"end":13653.529,"text":"我想社會的支付的習慣還有數位的一個要求呢他是漸進式的而且也是在進步當中的啦也不會如果說像委員在講這個還是30年前40年前的不會因為現在的支付台灣我跟委員報告事實上呢台灣的支付呢他是多元化的那請問一下總裁未來的數位新台幣你上面"},{"start":13654.369,"end":13663.051,"text":"是要用玉山還是要用孫中山?我們在這裡我們就用我們的鈔票的那個地址那這個只是說是試驗的啦這個不是也不必當真就是說這個就是未來的那個什麼數位貨幣不是"},{"start":13677.515,"end":13698.461,"text":"那個是就是說剛剛我在澄清的就是說那個是在那個你就說在那個離線的時候這個是一個備案總裁這樣子啦因為這邊是畫一隻鳥啦我是建議因為日本最近的這個日圓啊它都在改版我建議在上面你可以放一個黃仁勳"},{"start":13701.043,"end":13721.557,"text":"因為當我們拿數字貨幣上面有黃仁勳的時候拿著這張卡到美國也可以通因為全世界現在都認識台灣之光黃仁勳所以我們希望台灣要走向世界走向AI未來10年20年的發展就是把它放上去"},{"start":13724.339,"end":13751.722,"text":"臺灣的代表性我覺得委員的建議是很有創意不過這個可以做參考啦謝謝謝謝羅明財委員的資訊請接著我們請鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員不在侯孟凱委員侯孟凱委員侯孟凱委員不在蘇清文委員蘇清文委員蘇清文委員不在楊瓊瓊委員楊瓊瓊委員楊瓊瓊委員不在鍾佳斌委員鍾佳斌委員鍾佳斌委員不在何清春委員何清春委員何清春委員不在今日發言"},{"start":13752.623,"end":13757.827,"text":"登記委員均已詢答完畢本次會做如下決定報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":13759.618,"end":13785.827,"text":"2、委員質詢及未答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其所定委員楊瓊英、李昆城所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆4、本次會議議程已進行完畢堂有不在場委員補提書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理。散會"}]}},{"id":"154661","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154661","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f883904a612dd8e2147345d751ed3a12a62ae364a75fc9256580c1356d47cdd5255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:24:40 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通勤月票辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.977218750000002,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.15846875,"end":23.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.89221875,"end":24.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.43221875,"end":27.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.346593750000004,"end":66.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.88971875,"end":74.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.85471875,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.08971875,"end":122.18909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.39159375000001,"end":137.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.84909375,"end":141.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.96659375000002,"end":147.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.51846875,"end":177.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.35346875000002,"end":177.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.47159375,"end":219.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.62534375,"end":221.95409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.40971875000002,"end":222.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.59096875,"end":224.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.19409375,"end":227.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.77596875,"end":229.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.96971875000003,"end":243.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.46971875000003,"end":256.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.53159375,"end":253.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.29909375000003,"end":316.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.81221875,"end":362.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.18971875,"end":366.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.20159375000003,"end":394.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.55159375000005,"end":397.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.38659375000003,"end":398.04471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.189,"end":24.084,"text":"發言謝謝大會主席召委那有請部長還有局長請部長局長"},{"start":32.384,"end":56.737,"text":"委員好部長好那本席在這裡還是要再次感謝也肯定我們部長之前本席所提的終結延伸到南投在後續看到相關的報導您有延伸到南投的許多的意見也都有在媒體前公開表達交通部的重視在這裡也代表南投縣政府跟您表達致謝"},{"start":57.597,"end":82.351,"text":"那包括局長其實在這個公路的部分其實在南投縣地方的幹部都都積極的協助配合那也謝謝局長那本期在這裡依舊是就教這個我們南投縣鄉親的這個交通權益那以及交通南投縣那個交通的發展如何能夠更為便利那來進行探討那延續剛才陳委員所提到的那其實"},{"start":83.271,"end":106.578,"text":"上次我們有請教部長就是有關於因為南投縣的鄉親在竹山路區他的生活圈跟雲林縣包括斗六他是比較相近那時候有請局長到時候在南投縣政府以及雲林縣政府在去溝通協調的時候能夠積極來去做一個就是串聯"},{"start":107.518,"end":107.839,"text":"目前進度如何?"},{"start":122.618,"end":137.592,"text":"跟委員報告就說因為像雲林縣的就是說他TPASS的這個月票的方案的話其實有一些的那個公路客運的路線是從南投過來也就是說南投雲林銜接的這條路線的話其實是有納入整個月票方案的"},{"start":138.152,"end":159.054,"text":"所以就是說更就是因為臨近的這個比如說南投現在他是在這個中張頭苗裡面不過就是說因為南投雲林那這些部分的話就是比如說包括既有的各縣裡面自己本身就是說把這個跨縣市的這個公路坑已經拉進去了那如果說他有更進一步的就是說比如說方案的話"},{"start":159.494,"end":176.711,"text":"其實像最近有些鄰近的縣市他們也在談論說他們這個生活圈業在同一個縣市裡面往北往南其實是有不同的一個範圍所以他們現在就是說相關的縣市其實也有相關的一些提案那我們也都會願意來就是說來協助他們"},{"start":177.532,"end":197.57,"text":"那還是積極的就是請局長這邊能夠在兩個縣市間的溝通那能夠強化因為目前這件事因為鄉親他們反映這路線上來講他因為跨縣市在適用範圍的這個類別上造成民眾的一個就是不適應或者是他們也反映需求嘛那同樣的"},{"start":198.351,"end":220.518,"text":"我要接著請教PTT的第1頁就是有關於這個價格的部分那因為他有一個價格的落差那我想先接著請教一下部長有關於財化法的一個重新版本那部長因為你也擔任過行政秘書長你是不是會覺得其實財化法也需要做一個重新的一個檢討或是重新的一個審視這樣"},{"start":224.222,"end":251.901,"text":"財劃法目前我的瞭解確實是各縣市政府都期待能夠有一些比如說增加統籌分配款不過從中央執政的角度確實是不只是地方的建設我們還有很多包括像國防外交等等都是需要還有益住產業都是需要中央集中鼓勵來做重新的資源的分配"},{"start":252.541,"end":278.861,"text":"所以確實是有他的這個不同的角度我是覺得重新檢討啦重新檢視採訪法因為我們看到這個是中張投的這一個資料那包括中張投苗他的這個價格那在南投縣、彰化縣都是699那但是在台中市他是299那所以說在這樣子的一個票價的一個比例啊我們看到的是富者越富、貧者越貧"},{"start":279.662,"end":279.682,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":294.639,"end":294.659,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":319.888,"end":331.013,"text":"跟各位報告就是說補貼其實像這一個直轄市的部分其實我們像TPASS的部分直轄市主管的這些公車捷運的話其實我們只有補貼50%"},{"start":332.654,"end":334.035,"text":"提出對縣民的補貼,所以南投縣是提出"},{"start":368.72,"end":391.796,"text":"政府財源較為豐沛的話﹖也可以配合中央的政策﹖讓許多的社會福利的部分﹖有更多的經費來源能夠補貼﹖同樣的也在拜託部長跟局長這邊﹖一樣在持續的協調南投縣政府以及包括地方政府的部分﹖如果在票價可以更符合民眾的需求﹖"},{"start":392.296,"end":393.721,"text":"海南能夠體恤地方的長輩"}]}},{"id":"154660","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154660","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f86f39ad3a1b8784e27345d751ed3a12a62ae364a75fc925658aa131f5e391f1f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"12:17:20 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12:24:32","影片長度":"00:07:12","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS通勤月票辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T12:17:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T12:24:32+08:00","duration":432,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":568,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（12時17分）好，謝謝主席李召委，有請李部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長，午安，辛苦了。"],["李部長孟諺：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長，我想請教一下，有關TPASS現在在宜蘭的使用率，我們每天大概有7,000位民眾在使用，針對這個部分，因為宜蘭縣除了推出1,800的套票以外，還有另外一個1,200，我曾經在3月19日總質詢的時候詢問過之前的王部長，因為兩張票卡的使用讓民眾在出門的時候衍生許多非常困擾的問題，如果拿錯卡，被扣款就被白扣了，所以我覺得兩張卡是不是可以合併，當時交通部答應會後會跟縣政府協調。看起來目前宜蘭縣政府的態度應該是考量到成本的問題，所以有關兩張卡合併的方面，他們目前可能沒有這個想法，請問未來交通部是不是可以再邀集縣政府，針對這個問題再做一次比較緊密的協調？"],["李部長孟諺：我的瞭解是，目前宜蘭縣內有一個750……"],["陳委員俊宇：對，750。"],["李部長孟諺：另外，宜蘭跟臺北跨城際是1,800。"],["陳委員俊宇：對。"],["李部長孟諺：最近他們也會提一個宜蘭跨城際再加雙北，因為他可能到了臺北，還要在雙北之間搭乘各種大眾運輸工具，這個是2,300。"],["陳委員俊宇：對。"],["李部長孟諺：這三種卡怎麼樣整合？一般來講，民眾應該只會在三種裡面選一種，這樣比較合理。"],["陳委員俊宇：跟部長報告一下，它現在是1,800、750，另外還有一個1,200，所以會是不同的套票。1,800跟1,200是可以合併在一起，如果可以的話，我們是希望能夠整合成一張卡就好，可是現在宜蘭的鄉親出門要帶兩張卡……"],["李部長孟諺：這個我請局長跟您報告一下。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為宜蘭縣政府這邊大概也有提案到局裡面來做審查，2,300元的月票方案其實6月份我們就給它核定了，核定的話其實未來就是……","因為它要整個整合基北北桃的1,200，所以會變成基北北桃的系統修改幅度會滿大的，所以就是如果要整個變成一張卡片的話，其實基北北桃這邊投入的成本是滿高的，所以宜蘭縣政府6月份提報到局裡面來的時候，是討論如果已經有買到1,200元的基北北桃TPASS的票卡的話，再加1,100，這樣也可以取得1,800元的北宜廊道月票，所以大概就是說，還是維持2,300，相關的補貼其實中央也都有給相關的補助。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。"],["陳局長文瑞：目前它可能初步是這樣子，當然，未來的整合如果能用更節省的修改幅度，這樣子的話其實我們也可以來協助宜蘭縣處理。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，局長，我拜託未來北北基桃在討論的時候能夠納入宜蘭，就是北北基桃宜一併做檢討，看能不能把所有的優惠整合成一張卡。這個部分拜託局長。","另外，剛剛局長也有說到這個700元的部分，因為它是1,800加1,200，然後縣政府目前是退700塊，退700塊的部分我在3月19日也曾經詢問過，這個部分是不是交通部這邊可以來幫助宜蘭縣政府，對700塊的部分來做補貼？"],["陳局長文瑞：因為這個部分還要再精算。跟委員報告，因為全國TPASS的定價，也就是到底要收多少錢是地方政府定的，可是中央有一個原則，就是我們基本上最多就是整個票價在這個成本裡面不能低於三折。也就是說，如果需要補貼，中央最多大概就是整個的70%，如果精算以後這個700塊有一些部分不會低於三折的話，我們其實是可以補貼它的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這個部分再請局長這邊精算看看。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，還要精算。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外是我們後續將推出TPASS2.0，這個部分可能就是Taiwan PASS的升級版，相關的配套我相信應該非常完整，也可能對乘車的民眾會有許多幫助，可是我感覺到，事實上對於觀光旅宿業來講並沒有實質幫助的誘因，所以我有一個建議就是，未來再推出的升級版是不是可以考量到觀光旅宿業，對於他們的部分，是不是可以在車票補助的時候憑住宿票券再減少多少費用？有沒有可能這樣？"],["李部長孟諺：怎麼樣讓TPASS或者是Taiwan PASS也能夠結合食、宿、遊、購，讓觀光整合成一張類似「好玩卡」，把觀光客進來的食、宿、遊、購、行都能夠整合在一張卡裡面；我們後續來努力。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，再請局長和部長多費心。","另外我再用一點時間拜託部長，因為說實在的，有關國道車流量的部分，我上次也詢問過，就是近期內好像有發現國道5號的車流量已經有回復的情況……"],["李部長孟諺：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：可是根據我這幾天的觀察，這個回復並不是到宜蘭的遊客住宿的情況，他可能是單日的旅遊，他去到宜蘭之後可能當天傍晚就踏上回程，所以並沒有辦法讓旅宿業的住房率提高。我這幾天觀察，我們宜蘭縣觀光旅宿業的住房率還是沒有辦法回復到去年同時間的八成，目前應該是三成多而已，也沒有辦法有比較好的方式來復甦。所以我還是建議在0403震後的相關振興方案，拜託部長是不是可以重新審慎評估讓宜蘭縣加入補助的方案？"],["李部長孟諺：我們再來做一個包括住宿率部分的整體評估來考量。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，部長，這個再拜託你。以上，謝謝部長、謝謝局長。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳俊宇委員，發言完畢，現在請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-19","speakers":["李昆澤","陳素月","廖先翔","何欣純","林國成","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳雪生","林沛祥","蔡其昌","邱若華","牛煦庭","陳俊宇","游顥"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS 通勤月票辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.730343750000001,"end":10.392218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.56096875,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.42096875,"end":79.39409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.42534375,"end":41.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.90034375,"end":83.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.06846875000001,"end":89.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.03409375000001,"end":89.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.36721875,"end":91.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.79721875,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.83096875000001,"end":92.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.83909375,"end":94.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.03846875,"end":132.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.05534375,"end":114.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.37596875000001,"end":114.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.52284375,"end":120.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.32784375000001,"end":126.17159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.56721875,"end":136.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.60096875000002,"end":132.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.89159375,"end":213.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.53721875000002,"end":162.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.01034375,"end":219.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.91659375,"end":221.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.89096875,"end":246.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.92909375000002,"end":247.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.39721875,"end":248.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.48159375,"end":248.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.66721875000002,"end":286.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.10596875000005,"end":276.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.90596875,"end":333.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.85471875,"end":291.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.12471875,"end":291.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.31034375,"end":291.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.32721875000004,"end":291.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.31221875,"end":338.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.04971875,"end":339.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.53909375,"end":341.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.96909375,"end":345.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.20909375,"end":357.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.03596875,"end":346.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.54471875,"end":388.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.59909375,"end":360.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.93409375000005,"end":377.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.38971875000004,"end":377.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.84784375000004,"end":390.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.24846875000003,"end":423.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.82971875000004,"end":423.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.13346875,"end":430.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.03971875,"end":432.97596875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.752,"end":11.484,"text":"好謝謝主席我們李昭偉我們有請我們李部長請李部長"},{"start":15.638,"end":40.998,"text":"部長午安辛苦了委員好部長我想請教一下TPASS現在在宜蘭這個使用率我們每天大概有7000位的這個民眾在使用那對於這個部分因為宜蘭縣除了推出這個1800的這個套票以外還有另外一個1200那之前我在3月19號曾經在總質詢的時候詢問過我們之前王部長"},{"start":41.598,"end":58.166,"text":"對於這個部分因為兩張票券的使用這個票卡讓民眾在出門的時候會衍生許多非常困擾的問題那如果拿錯卡被扣款也是被白扣了所以我覺得說是不是兩張卡可以合併可是"},{"start":59.266,"end":79.232,"text":"當時是我們交通部是有答應就是會後會跟縣政府來做這個協調那看起來目前這個依然縣政府的態度應該是考量到成本的問題所以在這個兩張卡合併的方面他們可能目前沒有這個想法那未來我們交通部是不是可以再邀集縣政府"},{"start":80.772,"end":104.201,"text":"針對這個問題再做一次這個比較緊密的協調我的瞭解目前宜蘭是有一個是宜蘭縣內是750那另外宜蘭跟台北跨城是1800那最近他們也會提一個宜蘭跨城際再加雙北因為他可能到了台北還要在雙北之間的這個搭乘各種大眾運輸那個是2300那"},{"start":106.862,"end":131.191,"text":"這三種卡怎麼樣整合一般來講民眾應該只會在三種選一種比較合理跟部長報告一下他現在是1800 750另外還有個1200所以會是不同的這個套票那1800跟1200是可以合併在一起如果可以的話我們是希望能夠整合成一張卡就好可是現在宜蘭的鄉親他出門是要帶兩張卡"},{"start":133.231,"end":160.877,"text":"這個我請局長跟您報告一下根委員報告因為宜蘭縣府這邊就是說大概也有提案到局裡面來做審查了那2300元的這個月票方案其實6月份我們有給他核定了那核定的話其實未來就是說當然就是這一個因為他要整合這個基北北桃的1200所以會變成說基北北桃的這一個他們的系統修改的幅度會蠻大的"},{"start":162.597,"end":186.633,"text":"那所以就是說如果說要這個整個是變成一張卡片的話其實那個基北北桃這邊投入的成本是蠻高的所以原來縣府6月份提報到局裡面來的時候是討論就是說如果說已經有買到這個1200塊的這一個基北北桃的這一個TPASS的票卡的時候那再加1100這樣子的話就是說也可以取得這個1800塊的這個北宜的這個廊道的這個1800塊的月票"},{"start":191.716,"end":219.029,"text":"那所以就是說大概就是說還是維持2300那這個相關的補貼的話其實這個中央也都有給相關的補助那確實是不是說目前他可能是初步是這樣子當然未來的整合如果說能夠用更節省的這個修改的幅度那這樣子的話其實我們也可以來那個協助宜蘭縣來處理這樣子好 局長我拜託就是我們在未來北北基討在討論的時候能夠納入以"},{"start":221.21,"end":245.372,"text":"對,能夠納入宜蘭就北北機陶宜一併做檢討,看能不能把所有的這個優惠就整合成一張卡這樣子,這部分拜託局長那另外剛剛局長您也有說到這個700元的部分,因為他是1800加1200然後縣政府目前是退700塊那退700塊的部分我在3月19也曾經詢問過,這個部分是不是我們交通部這邊可以來幫助宜蘭縣政府對700塊的部分來做補貼"},{"start":248.75,"end":274.868,"text":"因為這個部分還要再精算跟委員報告就是說因為全國的那個TPASS的定價因為定價是比如說你到底要收多少錢是地方政府定的可是中央有一個原則也就是說我們基本上就是說我們最多就是整個票價在這個成本裡面不能低於三折啦所以就是說我們也就是說中央最多就是說整個的如果說這個需要補貼的大概是70%"},{"start":276.049,"end":277.29,"text":"臺灣PASS TPASS 2.0"},{"start":300.25,"end":317.928,"text":"那這個部分他可能就是台灣PASS的升級版那相關的這個配套我相信應該非常的這個完整那也可能對於這個乘車的民眾可能會有許多的幫助可是我感覺到就是說事實上對於觀光旅宿業來講並沒有實質的一個幫助的誘因"},{"start":321.411,"end":337.983,"text":"所以我有一個建議就是說對於我們未來再推出的這個升級版的部分是不是可以考量到觀光旅宿業那對於他們的部分我們是不是可以在這個車票補助的時候憑住宿票券可以再減少多少費用有沒有可能是這樣子"},{"start":339.655,"end":342.676,"text":"那另外我再用一點時間我還是拜託我們部長因為說實在的在這個"},{"start":369.263,"end":385.796,"text":"國道的車流量我上次詢問過就是說我們在近期內好像有發現到國道5號的車流量已經有回復的情況可是這個回復我這幾天觀察並不是這個到宜蘭的遊客住宿的情況他可能是單日的旅遊"},{"start":386.676,"end":410.703,"text":"他去到宜蘭之後可能今天傍晚就回程了所以並沒有辦法達到讓這個旅宿業的這個住房率提高那我這幾天觀察我們宜蘭縣的這個觀光旅宿業住房率還是沒有辦法回復到去年的這個同時間的八成現在目前應該是大概三成多而已也沒有辦法有比較好的方式來這個復甦所以我還是建議說在0403"},{"start":414.804,"end":415.024,"text":"以上謝謝部長謝謝局長"}]}},{"id":"154659","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154659","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8dc65ae4f5e8d22aa7345d751ed3a12a62ae364a75fc92565dad8ba2f965d2ad25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:11:14 - 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交通部部長有請李部長市長午安 辛苦了 委員好這個雖然今天排這個TPASS的專題報告要謝謝召委這是我們桃園非常非常關心的一個題目不過針對這個交通部提出來的報告這個本席就有點小意見這根據你的未來的這個政策的方向這點我非常滿意就是說我們要透過"},{"start":36.159,"end":64.98,"text":"再推出這個短期試用方案嘛比如說週套票或者是雙週套票這方向本席完全支持任何有助於提升大眾運輸使用率的政策我們都非常支持這一點非常好但這不代表我們回過頭來去檢視這一年TPASS的政策成效的時候要放鬆一對這政策算是對的好但我想中間的問題我們還是要做一下釐清特別是本席來自於桃園大眾運輸通勤族最大宗的居住城市通勤人士喔這個320萬人士非常可怕"},{"start":65.64,"end":93.696,"text":"但是我今天在你們報告裡面我比較遺憾的是我沒有看到詳細的運量分析也就是說我們要檢視這個政策的成效的時候我當然要知道各個公共運輸的運量成長了多少我現在看到裡面看到目前我看到只有說全部平均大概是12.7%部長還有沒有一些補充的資料我們因為本期是來自於桃園我們就看北北基桃這個區塊就好因為你每個區塊不一樣北北基桃這個公共運輸的運量總共成長多少"},{"start":99.548,"end":103.775,"text":"其中軌道運輸的運量增加多少?"},{"start":109.585,"end":116.548,"text":"臺北捷運是成長11.26新北捷運成長23.27桃園是成長68%市區公共運輸公共汽車市區公車運量成長多少整體是全國是成長8.4你有沒有北北機桃的數據因為全國那個有入網的問題"},{"start":136.868,"end":141.018,"text":"短途國道客運的數字是多少北北基桃的國道客運"},{"start":144.861,"end":170.94,"text":"沒關係這一樣你後補啦但這個數字最重要好不好本期之所以問這些問題問得比較詳細的原因是這樣這政策好但滿一年之後要了解這個政策的成效當然要知道各個公共運輸的成效占比你才知道我怎麼樣去調度未來的交通政策嘛那你剛剛講了這麼多的一些你手上有的數據其實你發現這個桃園捷運就是所謂的機場捷運的占比其實是最高的可是同時也表示如果你全國平均12%但機場捷運就占了60幾%那"},{"start":172.361,"end":188.24,"text":"那麼桃園自己內部的數據統計運量成長甚至到85%左右但不管是我們桃園自己的資料或者是交通部的資料顯然都共同指向一件事就是機場捷運一枝獨秀成長很多但是就代表其他的項目成長有限這難道不是一個問題嗎"},{"start":189.93,"end":214.181,"text":"機場捷運當然因為人口稠密 剛好周邊的重化區 廠商開發有成所以它有它成長的一定的道理但是我們要撇除機場捷運這個特別的個案之後下了這麼多的資源 如果運量只有十幾%十幾%的成長 我認為是還有改善的空間第二個我本期為什麼要特別問短途國道客運的問題就是因為本期在基層的了解短途國道客運有些時候第一個它成長有限 就我所知是低於10%那甚至有些路線因為機場捷運搶客人"},{"start":216.582,"end":238.872,"text":"所以他反而變成雪上加霜﹖人被吸走營運未見改善那反此種種就發現一件事就是說雖然總體的運量是增加了但他難道不是各個大眾運輸工具之間的人的互相流動嗎有可能對不對所以我覺得這個政策真正的成效指標真正的KPI應該是私人運具啊汽車機車的使用率下降多少請問交通部針對這件事有沒有調查"},{"start":249.99,"end":262.239,"text":"我希望我趕快拿到這個數字好不好私人運具的數量下降因為這事關未來我們要花多少資源然後他的政策效益我希望交通部一定要以私人運具下降比例作為重要指標為什麼因為"},{"start":262.959,"end":290.291,"text":"我們要投入TPASS中央也好地方也好大概幾百億幾百億聽起來很多阿但是我講另外一個例子我蓋一條捷運難道不用五百億嗎我蓋一條新的高速公路難道不用三四百億嗎可是你這兩百億給全國的大眾運輸提升我認為是我認為不但不用減少反而應該增加可是要增加增加有道理我們不能讓這個政策只照顧本來就使用大眾運輸的人我們要用這樣子的政策跟其他的配套去帶動大眾運輸的品質提升讓私人運去減少阿"},{"start":291.671,"end":306.194,"text":"讓本來開車騎車的人轉做大眾運輸工具這樣子你這筆錢下去的效益就不是只是提升大眾運輸使用率你同時解決了塞車的問題停車的問題那他就變成一個你可能是全交通部裡面縱效最高的一個資源投入"},{"start":306.855,"end":325.14,"text":"所以說這些數據我要拜託今天因為時間有限我請交通部趕快收集我剛剛問的北北基桃裡面市區公車短途國道客運還有軌道運輸的運量分別增加多少私人運具的使用率下降了多少這些數據請盡快來提供本期非常支持我認為這個上路一年初步成效是有成果的但是"},{"start":325.52,"end":325.88,"text":"好 謝謝部長 辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"154658","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154658","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8f0dd07436ac0d5a2a39103cf15d5982f2ae364a75fc925654034e7fd9a14e5935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"12:07:24 - 12:18:54","影片長度":"00:11:30","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T12:07:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T12:18:54+08:00","duration":690,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1029,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（12時7分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請央行總裁？"],["主席：有請楊金龍總裁。"],["羅委員明才：以及數位發展部林宜敬政務次長。"],["主席：有請林次。"],["楊總裁金龍：羅委員早。"],["羅委員明才：還有金融研訓院的林副院長。"],["主席：請金融研訓院林副院長。"],["羅委員明才：大家好，那我想請教一下楊總裁，我們現在要開始發行數位新臺幣，意味著我手上的鈔票即將要告別、慢慢的減少，從大概50年前到現在新臺幣使用的情況，一般民眾開始用手機支付或者是代收代支等等，有很多新的產品都出現了，那現在新臺幣的使用比率大概剩下多少？有很多年輕人身上都不帶錢，因為用不到啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我想基本上還是有一部分的人喜歡用現金。"],["羅委員明才：大概百分之多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：有三兆多，也就是說，目前流通在市場上的現金是三兆多。"],["羅委員明才：三兆多？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["羅委員明才：比率大概是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：比率占我們的……"],["羅委員明才：20年前我們都沒有什麼手機的支付等等，我們出門就是一定要帶厚厚的一疊現金，在前幾年COVID-19時代來臨的時候，大家都不敢碰錢，因為怕錢上面有細菌，政府也在不斷的引導大家儘量不要用紙張統一發票，要用電子雲端發票，不要去接觸錢，因為鈔票變成細菌傳染一個很重要的來源。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過在委員講到這個的時候，我也藉這個機會來澄清、說明一下，事實上在COVID-19的時候，很多先進國家特別像歐洲的英格蘭銀行、ECB歐元區的央行，他們跟我們中央銀行也都一樣的，都很關心COVID的virus會不會透過鈔券來傳遞，結果他們實驗的結果是不會，很低，所以我才會說……"],["羅委員明才：為什麼不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員在講這個的時候，我想我也藉這個機會來說明。"],["羅委員明才：請問一下總裁，這個病菌停留在一千塊……"],["楊總裁金龍：它很快就……"],["羅委員明才：停留在鈔票上，它的存活時間有多久？"],["楊總裁金龍：很短，我想我請發行局，當時我們……"],["羅委員明才：因為停在一千塊的……"],["楊總裁金龍：當時我們針對這個問題也討論很久。"],["羅委員明才：是不是可以請說明一下？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，請發行局來說明一下。"],["羅委員明才：因為大家都覺得這個市場、夜市出來的錢，感覺都髒兮兮的、怕怕的。"],["鄧局長延達：報告委員，這個Bank of England、BIS他們都有研究，其實virus透過鈔券傳播的機率非常非常低，而且我們鈔券一直有回籠整理，整理的時間都是一個月以上，所以鈔券再發出來，病菌已經死掉了。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。請總裁，我們看到全世界慢慢的都不使用鈔票了，改用電子支付、手機支付，這變成是全世界先進國家必須要走的一條道路。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，沒有錯，委員講得沒有錯，事實上，臺灣也是朝這一方向在走。"],["羅委員明才：請問一下總裁，剛剛我手上拿的那個鈔票最後會不會消失不見？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，在我們可預見的將來，鈔券還是會存在的，現金還是會存在的。"],["羅委員明才：以十年前跟現在來比的話，我們現在真正使用鈔票的比率占平常交易量的多少百分比？"],["楊總裁金龍：它是慢慢在下降。"],["羅委員明才：所以使用現金的越來越少嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是在下降的，沒有錯。"],["羅委員明才：那它的比率？"],["楊總裁金龍：準確的比率我現在記不起來，但是我知道它是在下降的。"],["羅委員明才：這個下降的速度快不快？大概剩下不到三、四十趴了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，我們同事給我的資料是，2017年到2023年國內現金支付的金額由6.24兆降至4.03兆，就已經降下來了。"],["羅委員明才：這個下降比率大概是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果說占GDP的比重，因為我們的GDP是越來越高的嘛。"],["羅委員明才：18兆啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊，我們的GDP越來越高，使用現金的是越來越少，那當然占GDP的比重就越來越少，這是第一個。另外，非現金支付由3.09兆增至7.27兆，所以委員的說法沒有錯。"],["羅委員明才：這個不是我的說法啦，是全世界很多數據顯示。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯，我剛剛也跟委員講，臺灣也是一樣的。"],["羅委員明才：楊總裁，當你拿到我們未來在臺灣使用的數位新臺幣，不知道長得什麼樣子。"],["楊總裁金龍：數位新臺幣你是看不到的。"],["羅委員明才：看不到？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為它就像一個虛擬的工具。"],["羅委員明才：可是我們那天去財金公司，……"],["楊總裁金龍：但是它有錢包啊！"],["羅委員明才：你給我一張……"],["楊總裁金龍：那個是卡片，那個卡片我們有設計一個離線式的，離線式的會有兩種，離線就是說網路沒辦法處理的時候，你也可以透過手機來離線支付，另外一個就是用卡片。"],["羅委員明才：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：卡片也是啊！就是離線的。"],["羅委員明才：那總裁你有沒有帶數位新臺幣的卡片？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，今天抱歉啦！那一天是給各位參觀的。"],["羅委員明才：那是不是借看一下？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，就是這個。"],["羅委員明才：可不可以借我看一下？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，那是一個測試。"],["羅委員明才：手上拿的這張卡是臺灣未來發行的數位新臺幣，希望無窮。請問楊總裁，當你拿到這張卡片開始使用，第一筆你在臺灣要購買什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過，我跟委員報告，這個是離線的啦，基本上我們要發展的CBDC，它是在手機裡面的，它是虛擬的、數位的，這個只是說離線的時候你可以用手機，也可以用卡片，而不是說CBDC就是用卡片來發行的，這個必須要做一個明確的說明。"],["羅委員明才：請問總裁，未來這張卡片的最大額度是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在還沒有，我記得委員也曾經講，因為有記名不記名，還有額度，一般來講都是說一萬塊，我也記得委員有說一萬塊恐怕是太少，不過，目前都還沒有做最後的決定，事實上呢，委員的意見我們會參考。"],["羅委員明才：我們希望這個速度可以快一點，因為現在的院長說是AI行動內閣，因此所有事情包括使用鈔票，還是三十年、五十年前的那個思維的話，就跟不上潮流了。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想社會支付的習慣，還有數位的要求是漸進式的，而且也是在進步當中，不會像委員說的，這個還是三十年前、四十年前的思維，不會。我跟委員報告，事實上現在臺灣的支付是多元化的。"],["羅委員明才：那請問一下總裁，未來的數位新臺幣上面要用玉山還是要用孫中山？因為我有看到……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們在此就用我們鈔票上的帝雉，這個只是試驗的，不必當真，說這個就是未來的數位貨幣，不是，如同剛剛我在澄清的，那個是在離線的時候使用的，是一個備案。"],["羅委員明才：總裁，這樣子啦，因為這邊畫了一隻鳥，我是建議，因為日本最近的鈔票都在改版，我建議在上面可以放一個黃仁勳，因為當我們拿數字貨幣，上面有黃仁勳的時候，到美國也可以通，因為全世界現在都認識臺灣之光黃仁勳，臺灣要走向世界，走向AI未來十年、二十年的發展，就把他放上去，會更具臺灣的代表性。"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得委員的建議很有創意啦，不過這個可以做參考，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員的質詢。","接著請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","今天登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢，本次會議做如下決定：報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢及未答復或請補充資訊者，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復，委員另有要求期限者則從其所定。三、委員楊瓊瓔、李坤城所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復。四、本次會議議程已進行完畢，倘有不在場委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.00534375,"end":3.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.840343750000001,"end":5.684093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.021593750000001,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.64159375,"end":8.755343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.160343750000003,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.19409375,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.071593750000002,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.814093750000001,"end":12.012218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.012218750000002,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.84284375,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.028468750000002,"end":16.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.58534375,"end":18.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.06159375,"end":28.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.718468750000003,"end":29.258468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.06846875,"end":31.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.941593750000003,"end":32.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.67971875,"end":36.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.565343750000004,"end":40.868468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.05409375,"end":42.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.994718750000004,"end":43.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.665343750000005,"end":45.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.86346875,"end":47.517218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.88846875,"end":49.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.50409375,"end":51.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.174718750000004,"end":57.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.119093750000005,"end":64.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.22409375,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.56096875,"end":66.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.34534375,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.34096875,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEA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來說明一下事實上在COVID-19的時候很多先進國家特別像歐洲像Bengalang還有像ECB歐元區的央行"},{"start":162.148,"end":176.014,"text":"他們跟我們中央銀行都一樣的都是很關心是不是鈔卷會COVID的這個virus呢是不是會透過鈔卷來傳遞出去結果呢他們那個實驗的結果呢不會"},{"start":180.182,"end":186.145,"text":"很低。所以我才會說﹖為什麼不會?委員在講這個的時候,我想我也藉這個機會來說。請問一下總裁,這個病菌停留在"},{"start":195.235,"end":208.429,"text":"一千塊停留在鈔票上,他的存活時間有多久?很短,很短,我想我要請我們的發行局,當時我們針對這個問題,我們都討論很久,我們也自己,我請我們的發行局來說明一下。"},{"start":219.349,"end":235.291,"text":"因為大家都覺得這個市場有時候流流這個夜市什麼出來那起來感覺都髒髒兮兮的怕怕的報告委員這個Bengal England還是BIS他們都有研究其實鈔券的這個"},{"start":237.267,"end":237.467,"text":"謝謝,那請總裁"},{"start":262.025,"end":289.514,"text":"我們看到全世界慢慢的不使用鈔票用電子支付、用手機支付變成是一個全世界先進國家也必須要走的一條道路是啦,沒有錯,委員講的都沒有錯事實上台灣也是在朝這個方向在走那請問一下總裁最後我們看到剛剛我手上拿的那個鈔票會不會消失不見"},{"start":291.137,"end":312.698,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說在我們可預見的將來我們可預見的將來鈔券還是會存在的現金還是會存在的那以10年前跟現在來比的話我們現在真正使用鈔票的比率是佔平常交易量的剩下多少%"},{"start":313.419,"end":313.699,"text":"拜訪議員．羅明"},{"start":334.833,"end":336.654,"text":"我們同事給我們那個我們就說2017年到2023年國內現金的支付金額由6.24兆降至4.03兆"},{"start":349.795,"end":350.735,"text":"非現金的支付由3.09兆增至7.27兆"},{"start":376.844,"end":380.465,"text":"楊總裁,當你拿到了我們未來在台灣使用的數位新台幣,不知道長得什麼樣子?"},{"start":399.668,"end":423.281,"text":"數位新台幣,你是看不到的。看不到?是啊,你是看不到,因為它就是一個,就像一個虛擬的東西。可是我們那天去財經公司。但是它有錢包啊。你給我一張。沒有,那個是卡片。那個是,那個是卡片。那個卡片是在,我們有一個設計的那個呢,是什麼?就是那個離線式的。"},{"start":426.422,"end":453.318,"text":"離線式的話會有兩種離線的話就是說你網路沒辦法處理的時候呢那麼你也可以透過手機來離線支付那另外一個就是用卡片那卡片也是啊卡片也是啊就是離線的總裁你有沒有帶那個數位新台幣的卡片沒有啦今天抱歉啦那一天是給各位參觀的那個是不是借看一下馬上就帶了齁對啦對啦這個啦"},{"start":455.919,"end":456.199,"text":"手上"},{"start":476.368,"end":505.053,"text":"拿到這張卡這是台灣未來發行的數位新台幣希望無窮請問楊總裁當你拿到這張卡片開始使用了你第一筆在台灣你要購買什麼不過我跟委員報告這個是講離線的啦基本上我們要發展的CBDC它是在手機裡面的啦"},{"start":505.553,"end":506.434,"text":"這是一個明確的說明。"},{"start":524.674,"end":552.903,"text":"那請問總裁未來的這張卡片它的最大額度是多少現在還沒有我們現在就是說我記得委員也在講就是說因為有記名不記名還有就是說額度嘛那一般來講的話都是說一萬塊嘛那我也記得委員就說這個一萬塊恐怕是太少啦不過呢這是因為現在目前都還沒有"},{"start":554.943,"end":582.43,"text":"做最後的一個決定的時候事實上委員的一個意見我們會參考我們希望這個速度可以快一點因為數位台灣現在的院長他現在說是AI行動內閣如果行動內閣所有的事情這個包括使用鈔票還用30年50年的那個思維的話就跟不上潮流了"},{"start":583.491,"end":605.63,"text":"我想社會的支付的習慣還有數位的一個要求呢他是漸進式的而且也是在進步當中的啦也不會又說像委員在講又說這個還是30年前40年前的不會因為現在的支付台灣我跟委員報告事實上呢台灣的支付呢他是多元化的"},{"start":606.932,"end":618.724,"text":"請問一下總裁未來的數位新台幣你上面是要用玉山還是要用孫中山?我們在這裡我們就用我們的鈔票的那個地址"},{"start":624.93,"end":625.35,"text":"總裁總裁這樣子的齁?"},{"start":644.164,"end":655.465,"text":"因為這邊是放一隻鳥我是建議因為日本最近日圓它都在改版我建議在上面你可以放一個黃仁勳"},{"start":658.022,"end":678.527,"text":"因為當我們拿數字貨幣上面有黃仁勳的時候拿著這張卡到美國也可以通因為全世界現在都認識台灣之光黃仁勳所以我們希望台灣要走向世界走向AI未來10年20年的發展就是把它放上去"},{"start":679.787,"end":690.179,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"154657","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154657","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8cc760649848f199e7345d751ed3a12a62ae364a75fc92565ecfde8b3afd21a0f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"12:01:24 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委員好"},{"start":19.444,"end":38.777,"text":"事實上這三個禮拜五才剛剛完成我們交通組的總質詢針對議題其實也是著重有的時候跟你討論到我們這個機場捷運相關的一些問題那我也趁著是這樣啦因為新的院長我們新的部長很多的一些訊息我們是希望說政策是延續的"},{"start":39.557,"end":59.37,"text":"所以我們會花這段的時間會把很多過去到底談的怎麼樣進度如何也希望能夠部長能夠了解當然今天談到一個TPASS在去年上路之後我們看到在我們桃園電子報的一個報導在去年的7到12月整體的公共運輸系統事實上明顯的一個成長成長到86.7%這是根據桃園電子報的一個當時的一個報導"},{"start":65.794,"end":91.83,"text":"那我沒有看到到今天為止今天7月10號我下午早上早上的時候我拿到最新的一個數字了就在整個機場捷運就像剛剛部長也有在在這個說嘛機場捷運我們是用112年到今年113年這在6個月同期它的用量到底呈現什麼樣的一個成長的一個數字因為畢竟你的TPASS是在年中才上屋的嘛所以"},{"start":92.31,"end":120.344,"text":"也看到蠻明顯的一個成長總共從去年的一到六月份去年每一天每日大概七萬七人次使用季節到了今年的一到六月因為剛平均出來他的每日的人次達到十一萬多所以大概成長百分之四十二那我也請這個大眾決定公司去分析啦因為有很多因素嘛也要謝謝鐵道局謝謝交通部"},{"start":121.024,"end":138.078,"text":"去年的7月也正好A22通道市區因為多了一站嘛 很多市區人就來使用了蠻多元的理由 但是我們在預估因為TPASS這個理由至少10%至少也造成了一個非常大幅度的一個成長 來帶動成長"},{"start":140.44,"end":143.642,"text":"現在回到在我們總諮詢相關的一些問題當然這個減價驗收也是驗收但是現在的一個情況產生的問題"},{"start":152.762,"end":177.81,"text":"原本的 要求的車數 達不到 沒辦法原本要求的班據 你應該短短 某個時間 10分鐘你就來一班可以載客人 那也做不到那沒有辦法 這已經是事實了啦 現在我們這個討論也不是部長的錯啦 這都 但是已經造成這樣的一個情況所以呢 在載客人次上面 有多重的影響其中 這樣的一個"},{"start":178.49,"end":178.57,"text":"魯明哲議員"},{"start":194.105,"end":194.245,"text":"主席"},{"start":225.895,"end":247.922,"text":"目前我們在之前達到一個初步的一個共識本來我們桃園大眾捷運公司桃園市政府是希望能夠有這個9直6普總共15列車那後面初步討論的結果變成了直搭車6列跟普通車4列6直4普的這樣的一個概念"},{"start":249.022,"end":269.199,"text":"不過我要在這裡特別拜託這也是我上次在前任院長跟部長上一次總質詢的時候因為現在全部都換人了因為我覺得這中間有些不合理的部分希望這個部長回去要好好研究一下因為現在中央初步給我們的補助說直搭車6列那由中央來補助"},{"start":270.782,"end":270.962,"text":"普通車"},{"start":291.027,"end":294.47,"text":"你覺得這樣一個補助的一個比例分配理由你自己的初步看法如何"},{"start":310.641,"end":333.461,"text":"我的了解這個是根據交通委員會當時有一個會議的記錄來延伸那另外確實是機場捷運當時特別因為他是肩負著國門的這個交通所以不然一般的捷運的車廂的補助在各個直轄市是由各直轄市這邊自己來負擔"},{"start":335.315,"end":359.659,"text":"因為季節不一樣,所以剛剛魯花委員特別問到因為現在季節事實上都還沒有交接,都還是交通部的你要講財產誰的,到我們今天站在這裡,這整個資產全部都還是交通部的目前為止都還是中央的所以我們在討論這件事情,純粹用地方政府的角度去討論是跟其他的一個軌道系統還是真的不一樣"},{"start":360.179,"end":360.339,"text":"主席"},{"start":378.715,"end":402.498,"text":"接下來也謝謝鐵道局那之前王部長在細部的去討論說大概初步補助的原則是這樣那我是想請教一下因為普通車在沉寂的一個運輸那未來中南北的軌道工程只要負責沉寂運輸的如果跟體申請列車的補助是不是都是零趴我就問一下跟鄉親好交代啦你不要說今天給我是零趴"},{"start":403.078,"end":425.611,"text":"結果人家50%那這個東西我這個委員就做的比較弱一點就這是不是一個原則原則性就是說因為你這個普通車是跑你成績的一些的站所以我們不管是台北新北桃園台中高雄哪裡來只要他的功能是這樣我都不補助是不是這樣"},{"start":427.061,"end":449.015,"text":"我的了解因為捷運是把它視為是地方自治事項所以是嗎?是不是嗎?都是在興建階段我是希望說興建階段有時候興建階段就會有購車會跟著購車一起我今天這樣的去說最主要的一個原因是就做個結論"},{"start":450.296,"end":477.796,"text":"因為 你的直達車只有幾站現在比較大的那個 我有那個反白給你看直達車就停這些站你說他負責機場的一個運輸然後呢 其他的國內各站的各站的人他們要去機場那只有區間車可以坐啊那再來我們再過幾年A223中立火車站中立火車站坐好之後那非常多可能從南部來的小站的一個坐火車的鄉親長輩"},{"start":478.897,"end":505.003,"text":"他也要去機場啊他也要出國啊那這個責任誰肩負呢一樣是區間車嘛再來在高鐵站也是一樣我們其實在桃園高鐵站只有在尖峰的時間來搭配幾台其他也沒有嘛所以剛剛講了半天就是你說國門運輸的一個責任其實區間車也佔了非常非常大的功能所以我這個部分我是希望建議我事實上上"},{"start":505.683,"end":535.006,"text":"上次總諮詢我也是建議你們回去研究一下除非你們研究結果說我剛剛講的其他區間車都沒有人會坐這個去機場也沒有人機場的旅客會坐這個到哪裡去這不可能嘛有人要坐到桃園高鐵站也只有區間車可以選擇在大部分的一個時段所以我們希望不要是0%啦不要是0%你無論如何他肩負多少國門的責任要講個道理給我們聽請你們回去研究好不好"},{"start":537.608,"end":550.938,"text":"高雄的輕軌也在排隊城市城市之間大家正面的我們希望每個城市都好17列車也要跟你們爭取"},{"start":552.139,"end":552.559,"text":"麻煩你開會討論好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154656","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154656","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8b1e4068174b5e9457345d751ed3a12a62ae364a75fc92565333f0a6540d534985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:53:38 - 12:01:11","影片長度":"00:07:33","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS通勤月票辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:53:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T12:01:11+08:00","duration":453,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":470,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時53分）謝謝主席，請李部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["邱委員若華：部長好！"],["李部長孟諺：委員好！"],["邱委員若華：部長，我們看到TPASS月票自去年1月上路至今已經滿週年了，其中我們看到桃園市捷運，113年1月到5月的運量約334.2萬人次，相較於111年同期230.7萬人次，成長達44.87%；但是市區公車則截然不同，桃園市區公車113年1月至5月均運量是326萬人次，相較於同期316.8萬人次，僅成長2.89%。部長，市區公車成長增幅有限，您認為主要的原因是什麼？"],["李部長孟諺：剛剛委員提的是桃園的案例？"],["邱委員若華：對，桃園，我們針對桃園來看。"],["李部長孟諺：全國性來看，確實公車的成長大概只有8.4%，是低於捷運14.9%、臺鐵的17.7%，這確實是有比較……"],["邱委員若華：所以不只桃園，全國看下來都是……"],["李部長孟諺：全國性也是這樣。"],["邱委員若華：您認為這個原因是為什麼？"],["李部長孟諺：我覺得大概就是跟公車，因為它不像軌道，它是比較準一點，軌道的時間是比較容易控制，那公車有時候會受市區塞車的影響，所以民眾對它的搭乘意願或是信任度會受影響，有時候會拖班，或者是因為塞車會影響到班次的準確。"],["邱委員若華：是，這是其中一個原因，另外一個主要的因素是因為司機嚴重地短缺。"],["李部長孟諺：這是另外一個原因。"],["邱委員若華：對，這是另外一個因素。根據我們桃園市交通局的統計，今年年初桃園還有272名客運司機的缺額待補，占我們全市的駕駛人數是27%。","我們看下一張簡報，另外，112年我們看到桃園各景區的旅遊人次達4,046萬人次，目前我們市區的公車班次恐怕無法因應這樣子的遊客數，那缺駕駛、遊客多，也會造成發車的區間時間拉長，影響旅客搭乘的意願。對於司機人力慌，部長、局長你們怎麼看？"],["李部長孟諺：是，確實是市區客運還有長途的國道客運駕駛，目前都有缺的這個現象，那我們交通部大概朝幾個方向在協助，包括我們把駕駛的年紀原來限制是要65歲以下……"],["邱委員若華：65歲提高到68歲？"],["李部長孟諺：提高到68歲。第二個……"],["邱委員若華：不好意思！這邊先中斷部長一下，本席也有和我們的王前部長討論過，先前有討論說要開放外籍的駕駛員，那麼這部分進行到哪了？"],["李部長孟諺：對，是，這個部分目前已經把方案提到勞動部了，勞動部現在正在審議的階段，勞動部原則上也支持，可以引進類似中階的外籍的人力來投入。另外，過去有協助引進新駕駛的方案，已經幫全國各個客運大概增加兩千九百多位。"],["邱委員若華：所以還在審議的階段？"],["李部長孟諺：勞動部那個在審議階段。"],["邱委員若華：還在審議的階段。"],["李部長孟諺：我認為下半年就會有好結果。"],["邱委員若華：7月4號的行政院院會，桃園市的蘇俊賓副市長也有分享桃園今年2月中推出的受訓即就業計畫，也受到卓院長高度認同，後續交通部有參考這項計畫嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：其實現在已經有跟它類似的，譬如說，新進的司機、駕駛在受訓期間，每天可以補助九百多塊的津貼；另外，如果能夠留才久用，留任超過一年還有3萬塊的補助，所以一個駕駛新進訓最高可以領十三萬多，等於留才訓練。"],["邱委員若華：市區公車包括客運是嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：對。"],["邱委員若華：OK，我們看到客運，4月18號……"],["李部長孟諺：這個政策也可以有效地吸引一些人加入。"],["邱委員若華：目前吸引的人數大約有多少？"],["李部長孟諺：大概兩千九百多位，是全國。"],["邱委員若華：4月18號在交通委員會的時候，本席也有質詢臺北與桃園間國道客運缺司機的問題，交通部應該協助業者，後續交通部有和業者討論嗎？後續實際的成效如何？就是解決缺國道客運司機的問題。"],["李部長孟諺：桃園這一段，是不是請局長跟您報告一下目前的狀況？"],["陳局長文瑞：缺司機的部分，我們提升公路客運跟市區客運營運成本的補貼，這樣子能夠提升駕駛的薪資，讓他們能夠留才或是徵才。另外，訓練的部分其實桃園市跟公路局一樣，我們訓練的時候也要讓他們能夠取得大型車的駕照，取得駕照之後能夠媒合到其他相關的，比如說桃園客運業者的公司上班。這些部分在訓練的過程中，都是訓練完考上駕照就可以到業者的公司上班，增加駕駛跟提升整個班次。"],["邱委員若華：好，接下來回到TPASS，113年度桃園市政府交通局的年度預算編列了40.57億，其中6.35億用來補助基北北桃TPASS月票，占交通局113年度預算的15.65%，已形成地方重大的財政負擔。機場捷運有國際旅客運輸，還有高鐵接駁的功能，也有參考國道客運跨三縣市的城際運輸，應該都是屬於中央服務的範圍。桃園機場捷運月票1,200，它的營收補助比例，目前中央還有地方政府是各50%，不符合比例原則。既然機捷有國際旅客運輸還有高鐵接駁的功能，加上往返A1到A7還有A22站，是歸屬中央的服務。我們也看到旅次量，中央服務的占比約為61%，為了紓解地方財政的壓力，本席建議交通部應該按照服務的比例原則，重新調配金額。部長可以協助嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：其實這一次投入TPASS，桃捷的運量大概提升將近六成多，已經從虧損變成轉虧為盈。每天的運量有10萬人次以上，已經開始……另外，我們對桃捷的挹注，包括購買新車等等，中央都有預算協助，減輕桃捷還有市府的負擔，目前是朝這個方向。至於TPASS的負擔比例，因為有全國一致的標準，所以沒有辦法為單獨的縣市做不同的處理。"],["邱委員若華：會後本席會再提供部長資料，再請您參考。"],["李部長孟諺：好，謝謝。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝部長，謝謝局長。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員，發言完畢。","現在請魯明哲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-19","speakers":["李昆澤","陳素月","廖先翔","何欣純","林國成","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳雪生","林沛祥","蔡其昌","邱若華","牛煦庭","陳俊宇","游顥"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS 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請李部長請李部長部長好是 委員好是 部長我們看到TPASS喔 月票自去年1月上路至今已經滿週年了 那其中我們看到我們桃園市捷運113年1月到5月的運量成長約3"},{"start":31.869,"end":33.51,"text":"市區公車成長政府有限,您認為主要的原因是什麼?"},{"start":62.932,"end":75.908,"text":"剛委員提的是桃園的案例,全國性來看,確實公車的成長大概只有8.4,是低於捷運14.9,台鐵的17.7,是確實是有比較低,全國性也是這樣。您認為這個原因是為什麼?"},{"start":81.434,"end":106.668,"text":"我覺得大概就是跟公車因為他會他不像軌道他是比較準點軌道的時間是比較容易控制那公車有時候會受市區塞車的影響所以民眾對他的那個搭乘的意願或是信任度會受有時候會拖班或者是因為塞車會影響到班次的準確度這是其中一個原因那另外一個主要的因素是因為司機嚴重的短缺"},{"start":108.449,"end":119.396,"text":"這是另外一個對這是另外一個那根據我們桃園市交通局的統計今年年初桃園還有272名的客運司機他的缺額逮捕那在我們全市的駕駛人數是27%那這邊下一張簡報謝謝"},{"start":124.159,"end":147.612,"text":"那另外112年次我們看到桃園各景區的旅遊人次高達4046萬人次那目前我們市區的公車班次恐怕無法營業這樣子的遊客數那缺駕駛遊客多那也會造成發車等他的那個區間時間拉長那影響有旅客搭乘的意願那對於市區人力荒部長局長你怎麼看"},{"start":148.362,"end":178.06,"text":"是 確實是市區客運還有長途的國道客運的駕駛目前都有缺的這個現象那我們交通部大概朝幾個方向在協助包括我們把駕駛的年紀原來限制是要65歲以下提到68那本席也有和這邊先中段部長一下本席也有和我們的王前部長討論過那先前有討論說要開放外籍的駕駛員那這部分進行到哪了"},{"start":178.3,"end":178.68,"text":"所以還在審議的階段"},{"start":202.842,"end":224.104,"text":"呃 勞動部那個在審議的階段 還在審議的階段 那應該呃 我認為下半年就會有好結果下半年 因為7月10 呃 7月4號的時候行政院院會我們呃 桃園市的蘇俊平副市長也有分享我們桃園今年2月中推出的一個計畫叫做授訓級就業計畫 那也受到卓院長的高度認同 那後續我們交通部有執行就是參考這項計畫嗎"},{"start":225.493,"end":248.367,"text":"其實現在已經有一個類跟他類似比如說新進的司機駕駛那在受訓期間每天可以補助900多塊的津貼那另外如果能夠留才久用留任超過一年還有相關的3萬塊的這個補助所以最高一個駕駛新進訓來可以領13萬多所以這是我們的市區的公車包括客運是嗎"},{"start":249.708,"end":252.349,"text":"臺北與桃園之間的國道客運缺司機的問題嗎?那交通部應該協助業者?那後續我們交通部有和業者討論嗎?後續的實際的成效針對我們解決缺"},{"start":277.575,"end":302.648,"text":"市基這一部分 國道客運桃園這一段是不是請局長跟您報告一下目前的狀況因為跟各位報告就是說大概就是說缺市基的部分包括就是說這個提升這個公路客運跟市區客運的他們的營運的一個成本的補貼那這樣子的話其實就是說對於駕駛的薪資的部分其實就是能夠提升讓他們能夠留財或是徵財"},{"start":303.769,"end":303.889,"text":"邱若華議員"},{"start":328.456,"end":329.136,"text":"提供提供"},{"start":357.33,"end":383.043,"text":"旅客運輸還有高鐵接駁功能那也有參考國道客運跨三縣市的程序運輸那應該都是屬於我們中央服務的範圍那部長請問桃園機場捷運月票1200那它的營收補助比例那目前中央還有地方政府是各50百分之各50那不符合比例原則那既然機捷有我們的國際旅客運輸還有高鐵接駁功能加上one fund"},{"start":383.643,"end":384.423,"text":"部長這邊可以做協助嗎?"},{"start":407.826,"end":422.199,"text":"跟委員報告其實這次TPASS的投入陶傑他的運量大概提升了將近6成6成多那已經從虧損變成轉虧為盈了他已經進入每天的運量有10萬人次以上"},{"start":422.939,"end":427.063,"text":"致於這個TPASS負擔比例因為這個有全國性的一致的標準所以我們沒有辦法為單獨的縣市去做不同的處理"},{"start":447.082,"end":451.624,"text":"是那會後本市也會再提供部長資料那再請您做參考好謝謝部長謝謝局長"}]}},{"id":"154655","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154655","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f82a71faee43ec4ff2a39103cf15d5982f2ae364a75fc92565f30caff4e49f2b215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:55:11 - 12:07:05","影片長度":"00:11:54","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:55:11+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T12:07:05+08:00","duration":714,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時55分）謝謝主席，先請央行總裁。"],["主席：有請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：伍委員早。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：總裁早。央行在2019年就開始研究建置央行的數位貨幣，所以我們可以說它應該是一個新的議題，為什麼說它是非常新的議題？因為你們也有委外做一個問卷調查，結果一般民眾對央行要發行的數位貨幣的認知度，可以說只有1成的人聽過。而這樣的一個國際趨勢，我們大概也瞭解你們的態度，因為你們有特別提到，我們也有看到，我們發現這些在推動的大多是金融基礎設施比較不足的國家，比較先進的國家反而是類似我們現在的態度，就是準備，然後建構，然後就是要因應。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想說的是，你們央行在做的這個數位貨幣，它的架構就是類似我們的實體貨幣，它是雙層的，央行發給銀行，銀行再發給人民，你們做的這個初步架構，也有去看了一下它的介面、它的功能，例如像是記名、不記名的錢包，或者是去做一些兌換、轉帳、消費等等。我想要請教您一下，請您簡單解釋一下，這個數位新臺幣跟現在使用的新臺幣做的電子支付，最大、最根本的差別是什麼？因為民眾不懂。"],["楊總裁金龍：跟現在使用新臺幣進行電子支付，你所謂的電子支付就是我們的行動支付，是不是？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，就是我們現在要做數位貨幣跟電子支付這樣子的比較。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我來嘗試回答，就是說委員你所講的，譬如說Apple Pay，Apple Pay也是新臺幣的電子支付，Apple Pay、LINE Pay、台灣Pay都是，但是這些的支付都是用銀行的貨幣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，這樣是很清楚的解釋。"],["楊總裁金龍：中央銀行的CBDC是中央銀行發行的，所以中央銀行發行的貨幣跟它用商業銀行的貨幣去轉的，基本上還是不一樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，這樣是很清楚的解釋。那你們的推動規劃呢？我看到去年開始你們就是做委外的問卷調查，預計從明年開始要辦公聽會、說明會等等。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們要去辦公聽會、說明會，應該會有基本資料、會有說帖帶進去吧！"],["楊總裁金龍：會，我們會準備，會有全套的資料。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我現在就是想要瞭解一下，因為你們做問卷調查是針對不同的對象，有不同的訪問的內容。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：在這個當中，我想一般大眾當然是不瞭解，大概只有1成，那產業界呢？大概有多少人聽過、瞭解？"],["楊總裁金龍：產業界比較高。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：高是多高？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有關係啦！大概是5成啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：它是比較高的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：政府機關呢？你覺得接受度高不高？"],["楊總裁金龍：政府機關更高。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，我看到的資料也是政府機關接受度最高。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我來請教您一下，因為我們仔細來看，一般民眾當然是不認識，但是做後測之後，我們發現稍加說明之後，他有很大的使用意願。我們再來看，如果問他的使用需求，他們表達的，大概我們可以看到，接受度最高的、覺得很好的、應該來做的是那些有接受政府救濟的，或者是中低收入戶，或者是越來越多可能會申請租金補貼的這些人，還有一些創新功能，所以請問一下，這些調查出來的需求，你們有開始在做規劃了嗎？都有接納嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，就是說我們在這裡面的功能，我們跟數位部現在就是要合作發行數位券，那數位券就是剛剛你……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，看起來數位券應該是接受度最高、最好用。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以我們的CBDC要踏出第一步，它就是要從這裡來做試驗。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們也希望這個能夠成功。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那再請教一下，你們要下去做說明會，根據調查的結果，其實大部分的人是擔心隱私跟個資的問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：關於這個部分，你們對於這些資安的認證、在怎麼樣的狀況下才調用資料等等有在做規劃了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：都有在做規劃？"],["楊總裁金龍：都有在做規劃。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那再請教一下，我們看到對產業界衝擊的調查結果，我們發現基層的金融機構最擔心，感覺他們受到的影響會最大。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請問一下，基層金融機構是類似哪一些？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們所說的基層金融機構，一般來講就是農、漁會信用部還有信用合作社。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：他們擔心他們的角色會被弱化嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，會被弱化了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那請問你們有在規劃要怎麼協助嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然，如果假設我們的金融體系足夠健全，也就是不會發生銀行擠兌這種事件的話，基本上，他對CBDC的發行應該是不會有concern。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我這樣子一直問，你們好像都有準備了？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那當然照我看起來，政府機關應該是覺得最輕鬆的，因為他收付款的業務可能會輕鬆許多，接受度比較高啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：法律學界的意見是認為應該要修法，有要修法嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，如果假設我們決定要做的話，那所涉及到的很多法都要修正，特別是中央銀行法可能都要修。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以也已經在啟動修法的內容？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在我們在法律方面也在做準備。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那什麼時候送行政院？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，現在還沒有，因為……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以八字還沒一撇？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，因為法律學界也有他們的看法，所以我們在公聽會裡面就會……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那聽起來好像很積極？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，這些都是準備的工作。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可是真的要走到修法這一步，又感覺八字還沒一撇。"],["楊總裁金龍：都在做準備的工作。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，請教一下，對這些資訊科技學者的意見，我也要關心一下，因為這個會有數位落差的問題，有的人買不起手機啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我們有很多的地方網路不通，那可以去做離線支付嗎？對這些有規劃嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對於離線支付也有在規劃，而且假設說一定要發行的話，在要發行的時候，如果在偏遠地區還有弱勢者不會使用手機、不會使用app的時候，事實上，我們的現金還是會雙軌並行。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。那是不是時間可以暫停？我想邀請一下金管會主委跟數發部次長。"],["主席：有請彭主委還有林次長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，剛才我聽了央行介紹準備發行數位貨幣的一些規劃跟想法，那我想要特別為偏鄉來請教一下，因為我們有問了央行總裁，你們都是金融專業的人員。我們已經有看到一些專題報導，像中國是一個高度電子支付的國家，有很多國小的學生從出生到現在幾乎沒有看過實體貨幣，有很多的老師也反映，因為這樣所以在學校課程的學習其實是有很大的問題，遑論他們的金錢觀、理財觀、消費觀。我們看到像日本這個國家很堅持還是使用實體的貨幣，我想要請教大家，因為有一種所謂的「馬太效應」，我們很擔心像資本社會發展出這樣的制度、工具會讓富者更富，讓貧窮的人更窮，會讓有資本的人可以全拿，那這些沒有資本的人可能會難以翻身。所以我想要特別請教一下金管會主委，因為我們在教育上有一個所謂的認知發展階段，可能是從感覺運動期，然後一直到國小的具體操作期。我們都會回憶在過去學數學時可能都要拿那種代幣來輔助我們學習認識這些貨幣，一直要到最後我們才會有這種形式的、抽象的操作期。可是我想要請教一下金管會，我們在這個部分未來面對這樣的數位貨幣、電子支付的發展，金管會有沒有做過什麼樣的分析、研究、規劃？有沒有找過數發部、教育部一起來研究這些問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，報告委員，我必須據實說，從我上任到現在，我沒有接受到訊息，但並不代表沒有，也許我們的同仁可以說明一下。"],["胡處長則華：是，跟委員報告，我們目前是還沒有做這個研究，但是我們有規劃在明年的時候會做一個金融素養的調查，然後也會同時調查，民眾針對數位金融的部分，目前有碰到什麼樣的議題，所以會從這裡面再去做研究。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我們當然要與時俱進，時間也到了，我要請央行、金管會跟數發部根據我所提的幾點訴求，我是希望能夠針對這一些電子支付已經很普及的國家去研析對他們正反面的影響，來提供我們做一個參考。也希望你們能夠評估對偏鄉及弱勢族群可能帶來的正反面影響，因為我們不知道這個影響是好還是不好，但是我們必須要知道，未來這樣的發展會不會對偏鄉及弱勢族群造成傷害。還有我們希望教育單位也能夠一起來做跨部會的討論，因為我們看到過去的教育，我們的學校教育其實是不教、不鼓勵如何賺錢，這是被隱晦不談的問題，那未來這樣的趨勢發展會形成什麼樣的落差還是形成一個翻身的機會，我們都不得而知，所以我們希望你們三個部會能夠去做出一個這樣的報告，在二個月內以書面答復，可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。","接著我們請謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員不在。","接著我們請羅明才羅召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.30909375,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.5915937500000004,"end":5.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.24096875,"end":7.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.56471875,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.594093750000003,"end":116.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.01034375,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.96659375,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.034093750000004,"end":34.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.16346875,"end":43.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.07471875,"end":44.142218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.47284375,"end":61.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.94471875,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.27721875,"end":71.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.45409375,"end":73.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.63971875,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.48284375,"end":78.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.86221875000001,"end":81.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.44846875,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.53284375000001,"end":82.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.15284375,"end":84.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.38034375000001,"end":86.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.80534375,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.90659375,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.98221875,"end":96.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.55596875,"end":96.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.15596875000001,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.17159375000001,"end":171.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.18409375,"end":127.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.20096875,"end":127.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.36971875,"end":127.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.47096875000001,"end":127.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.53846875,"end":127.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.75784375,"end":127.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.87596875000001,"end":129.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.19221875,"end":133.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.41096875,"end":133.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.44471875000002,"end":133.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.86721875,"end":158.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.02534375000002,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.13471875000002,"end":174.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.19034375,"end":195.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.96659375000002,"end":196.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.69221875000002,"end":219.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.70909375000002,"end":199.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.89721875,"end":208.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.65909375,"end":220.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.79409375,"end":221.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.49846875,"end":225.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.84409375,"end":229.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.83534375000002,"end":226.99971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.50159375,"end":230.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.07096875000002,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.03284375,"end":231.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.04971875,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.06659375,"end":231.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.08346875,"end":278.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.10034375,"end":232.92284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.51534375000003,"end":249.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.59534375,"end":249.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.72721875,"end":270.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":278.78909375,"end":285.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.02846875,"end":308.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.02721875000003,"end":297.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.01659375,"end":343.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.31909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:124.866,"text":"因為民眾不懂跟現在使用新台幣進行電子支付你所謂的這邊的電子支付就是說我們的行動支付是不是"},{"start":126.686,"end":126.806,"text":"這是銀行的貨幣"},{"start":156.73,"end":158.051,"text":"中央銀行發行的貨幣跟他用商業銀行的貨幣去轉的基本上還是不一樣的"},{"start":171.883,"end":184.132,"text":"這樣子我想是很清楚的解釋那你們的推動規劃我是看到去年開始你們就是做委外的問卷調查那也預計從明年開始要開始辦公聽會、說明會等等"},{"start":187.134,"end":206.602,"text":"你們應該要去辦公聽會、要去辦說明會,應該會有基本資料吧?會有縮帖帶進去吧?會,我們會準備,會有一套全套的資料。我現在就是想要了解一下,因為你們在問卷調查,你們是針對不同的對象,有不同的訪問的內容。"},{"start":208.923,"end":227.742,"text":"在這個當中,我想一般大眾當然是不了解,大概只有一成。那產業界呢?大概有多少人聽過、了解?產業界比較高。高是多高?沒有關係,大概是五成。那政府機關呢?政府機關更高。"},{"start":231.205,"end":248.111,"text":"對,我看到的資料也是政府機關接受度最高那我來說那個請教您一下因為我們仔細來看一般民眾當然是不認識但是做後撤之後我們發現稍加說明他有很大的一個使用意願"},{"start":250.151,"end":276.63,"text":"我們再來看那如果說問他的一個使用需求他們表達的大概我們可以看到接受度最高的覺得很好的應該來做的是那些有接受政府救濟的或者是中低收入戶或者是越來越多我們可能會申請租金補貼的這些人然後還有一些創新功能所以請問一下這一些調查出來的需求你們有開始在做規劃了嗎"},{"start":277.791,"end":295.709,"text":"都有接納嗎?我跟委員報告這個就是說我們在這裡面的功能裡面我們跟數位部呢我們跟數位部現在就是說要合作一個就是說要發行這個數位券那數位券就是剛剛你現在對看起來數位券應該是券售度最高"},{"start":298.171,"end":317.105,"text":"所以這個就是說我們的CBDC的要踏出第一步他就是要從這裡來做試驗我們也希望這個能夠成功那再請教一下那你們要下去做說明會那調查出來的其實大部分的人呢是擔心隱私跟各自的問題"},{"start":318.366,"end":343.814,"text":"所以這個部分我不曉得說你們對於這些資安的認證那怎麼樣的狀況下才調用資料等等有在做規劃了嗎有有有都有在做規劃那再請教一下我們看到產業界他的一個調查結果的衝擊我們發現基層的金融機構最擔心感覺到他受到的影響會最大請問一下基層金融機構是類似哪一些"},{"start":344.854,"end":360.674,"text":"我們所說的基層金融機構一般來講就是說我們的龍漁會信用部還有就是說我們的信用他擔心他的角色被弱化了那請問你們有在規劃要怎麼協助嗎那當然啦就是說"},{"start":361.975,"end":383.11,"text":"如果說一個銀行體系就是說我們的金融體系如果說足夠健全的話也就是說不會發生銀行擠兌的這種事件的話基本上他對CPTC的發行應該是不會有好那我這樣子一直問都好像都有準備了那當然政府機關我看起來他應該是覺得最輕鬆的因為他收付款的業務可能會輕鬆許多接受度比較高"},{"start":391.496,"end":417.654,"text":"那法律學姐的意見呢?他們是認為說應該要修法,有要修法嗎?那當然,如果說假設說我們決定要那個的話那它所涉及到的很多的法都要,特別是中央銀行法可能都要修法所以已經在啟動修法的內容?我們現在也就是說是在法律方面呢我們也在做準備那什麼時候送行政院?沒有沒有,現在還沒有所以8次還沒一票?"},{"start":419.475,"end":435.021,"text":"因為就是說我們的學界法律學界呢他也有他的看法那所以呢我們在我們的公聽會裡面呢我們就會那聽起來好像很積極啦那真的要走到修法又感覺八字還沒一臉"},{"start":437.202,"end":452.303,"text":"好那請教一下吼那這些資訊科技的學者呢我也要關心一下因為這個會有數位落差的問題嗎有的人買不起手機啊那我們很多的地方網路不通啊那可以去做離線支付嗎"},{"start":452.844,"end":453.244,"text":"還有林次長"},{"start":487.443,"end":504.001,"text":"剛才我聽了央行就是介紹準備發行數位貨幣的一些規劃跟想法那我想要特別為偏鄉來請教一下因為我們有央行總裁你們都是金融專業的人員我們已經有看到一些專題報導"},{"start":505.763,"end":516.634,"text":"像是中國他們是一個高度電子支付的國家很多的現在的國小的學生是從出生到現在幾乎沒有看過實體貨幣"},{"start":519.186,"end":534.896,"text":"很多老師也反映這個反映在學校課程的學習其實是有很大的問題狂論他們的金錢觀、理財觀、消費觀我們看到像日本這個國家他很堅持還是使用實體的貨幣"},{"start":537.117,"end":563.763,"text":"我是想要請教大家因為我們有所謂的馬太效應我們很擔心像這樣的一個資本社會的這一些的發展的制度工具會讓富者更富貧窮的人會更窮那會讓有成本的人他可以全拿那這些沒有資本的人可能會難以翻身所以在這個部分我想要特別請教一下我們金管會主委"},{"start":564.383,"end":582.218,"text":"因為我們在教育上有所謂的一個認知發展的階段可能是從感覺運動期然後一直到國小的具體的操作期我們都會回憶我們過去學數學可能都要拿那種代幣來輔助學習我們怎麼樣認識這些貨幣"},{"start":587.241,"end":612.288,"text":"一直要到最後我們才會有所謂的形式的抽象的這種操作期可是我想要請教一下金管會我們在這個部分未來面對這樣的一個數位貨幣電子支付的發展我不曉得說金管會有沒有做過什麼樣的分析研究規劃有沒有找過數發部啊教育部啊一起來研究這些問題"},{"start":613.428,"end":640.707,"text":"市報委員我必須那個那個那個據實說我上來到現在我沒有接受到訊息但並不代表沒有啦也許我們同仁可以說一下是跟委員報告我們目前是還沒有做這個研究但是我們有規劃在明年的時候會做一個金融素養的調查然後也會同時針對就是民眾針對這個數位金融的部分他們目前有碰到些什麼樣的議題所以會從這裡面再來去做研究"},{"start":641.387,"end":660.523,"text":"我們當然要與時俱進時間也到了但是我請我們的央行金管會跟我們的數位發布還是根據我幾點的訴求我是希望說能夠針對這一些所謂的電子支付已經在普及的國家去做一下他們的正反面的影響來提供我們做一個參考"},{"start":661.784,"end":681.284,"text":"那也希望能夠去評估對偏鄉弱勢族群可能帶來的正反面的影響因為我們不知道這個影響是好還是不好但是我們必須要知道未來這樣的發展會不會去造成我們對偏鄉及弱勢族群的一個傷害那還有我們的教育的這些單位"},{"start":682.726,"end":693.616,"text":"我們都希望說能夠一起來做跨部會的一個討論因為我們其實看過去的教育我們的學校教育其實是不教不鼓勵如何賺錢這是被隱晦不談的問題"},{"start":697.219,"end":697.239,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154654","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154654","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8c19880bd456fae80ca0ece664f026f7b2ae364a75fc92565b6d5a35e119f76195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:00:47 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。"},{"start":355.236,"end":377.994,"text":"原住民最重視的包括這個核廢料的儲存可不可以在現有的地方再開再儲存還有沒有空間當然因為你要弄到哪裡不可能啦我們也不會接受啦你要弄到哪裡大家都不會接受啦所以唯一的途徑對不對"},{"start":380.53,"end":387.058,"text":"現在屏東的他們希望能夠繼續研議啊對不對那你問他們可不可以在這邊蓋這個儲存場因為沒有啦沒有啦要不要可不可以蓋啊這個都要雙管齊下啊對不對"},{"start":398.473,"end":400.515,"text":"好的 謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員"}]}},{"id":"154652","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154652","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f87e31d521c43653b37345d751ed3a12a67bbd165341284486438b110bf66173085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:43:16 - 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.705,"text":"首先謝謝委員的這個我想第一個就是說藍線藍線目前是整個這幾條線裡面進度最快因為它已經經過中規已經核定而且環評也過環評也通過了所以現在只要它的相關的設計基設的部分經過工程會的審議那它就可以進入包括像用地取得還有包括招標的階段"},{"start":114.525,"end":137.198,"text":"那當然有一些細節像過去在臺灣大道那邊跟火車跟台鐵還有相關捷運站跟供購的方案當時核定的時候是先有一個事後要提出有條件的核定事後要提出這邊的細部的規劃那這個部分是否也提出相關的規劃那也經過交通部大家的審查覺得這個規劃是可行的"},{"start":138.439,"end":138.539,"text":"主席"},{"start":157.711,"end":179.349,"text":"就是說如果遇到細節遇到困難那假設那些細節困難不是馬上立即就可以解決的那也許我們就先繼續往下走比如說可行性先核定那有些部分細節困難要要要後續解決的部分在中規之前把它處理把它完成比如說像綠線延伸到彰化"},{"start":180.851,"end":199.59,"text":"當時也是可行先核定,但是彰化的這個部分有一個都市計畫,彰東都市計畫還沒有確定,那當時就附帶的方式,就是在中歸的階段之前都市計畫要發布、實施。所以我想用這樣的原則,可以讓一些計畫的進行審議,不會因為卡在細節。"},{"start":202.893,"end":224.946,"text":"好部長謝謝其實我就是要跟你講這個就是過去有藍線的經驗有綠線本就是原則這現在綠線這條的經驗很多時候就真的在可歸在文書作業上這個在時間上拖太久了包含說我們這次送案的這個局限當年送案是民國105年現在民國113年當然都還在這個紙上作業的階段所以我們希望說"},{"start":226.466,"end":254.251,"text":"記取前面這兩條線的這目前的藍線已經過了這個綜合綜合規劃那綠線已經正在跑了這兩個線的這個經驗就是文書的這個文件上的作業啊這個會議的流程啊我們希望能夠加速一點有任何的疑問有任何的問題因為我其實過去看到藍線也好綠線延伸也好或是綠線也好很多時候在這個可惜性規劃的時候都是因為會議不斷的開完之後有意見回去再等三個月再回來"},{"start":255.211,"end":255.451,"text":"臺中市政府﹖"},{"start":283.237,"end":306.924,"text":"我想臺中市是已經是全國第二大城市那確實是應該要有一個健全的捷運的網路才能夠讓臺中市民行的安全行的便利更加的提升而且也符合一個國際都市的一個規模跟這個架構那我們會後續這幾條路線我們都會秉持這樣的原則跟中央地方是一個夥伴關係那從來促成"},{"start":308.905,"end":336.963,"text":"好 新部長那提到TPASS的問題其實今天為什麼特別提捷運我給大家看一個數據我這個不是針對高雄但是因為剛好這個南高屏跟中張頭的月票都是999元我們用相同的基準來比較這個數字當然高雄捷運的月運量人次比台中多 非常多那台中現在月運量是只有124萬平均124萬以六月來講的話那高雄捷運加輕軌是602萬那使用TPASS的人數跟比例"},{"start":337.923,"end":353.297,"text":"臺中捷運的確明顯的使用月票的比例是83%換句話說所以臺中現在雖然就一條捷運但他使用的這個比例來講其實非常非常高所以我們還是要支持也是支持也肯定說當初推動這TPASS那但是"},{"start":354.278,"end":375.299,"text":"我們使用比例高但是問題就在於說我的運量整體的捷運就只有一條所以為什麼今天特別要去提捷運五線奇葩是對台中那麼重要就是因為這個TPASS的確對市民來講他是一個能夠有效的利用的這個工具那我們希望說未來如果台中的月運量人數跟我們台中的捷運的這個規劃的這個線路"},{"start":377.941,"end":402.276,"text":"跟追上高雄之後我們如果維持這樣同樣的月票比例我想這個TPASS在推動大眾運輸上面就有實際的效果但是我們回到這個實際面上來看這個TPASS月票使用情況我們當初在推動TPASS的時候除了去讓使用者更方便之外其實本身也應該是希望說有更多的人來使用大眾運輸但是我們從數據上來看的話"},{"start":403.777,"end":419.164,"text":"每個月每個月的起起伏伏都會有變動但是很明顯的從去年推出來到現在大約去年的10月跟去年的12月人數突然增加到70萬但是今年以來大概人數"},{"start":419.844,"end":420.264,"text":"李孟雄議員"},{"start":450.876,"end":468.377,"text":"確實目前大概平均是64萬就是從實施以來到目前為止那確實是我們覺得這個還有成長空間那所以我們在年底會推出TPASS 2.0那針對不是月的使用量比如說它是短天期的"},{"start":468.677,"end":468.817,"text":"好部長當然"},{"start":484.239,"end":503.289,"text":"對於觀光客短期票這份我覺得這個是比較屬於觀光但是我想要提到的是說其實應該是針對國內的使用者因為像比如說像TPASS它本身現在的方向是以鎖定區域比如說我剛剛提到的中張頭、高高屏、北北基桃等等是用區域的方式但是以本席自己的生活經驗過去的生活經驗包含可能部長也是"},{"start":504.329,"end":520.367,"text":"我們以前我是台中人在台北念書所以我固定我可能每個禮拜五都要回台中那像這樣的學生通勤票他是不是也可以有一個吃到飽的狀況一個吃到飽的方案提供跨縣式的或是自選方案當然這是需要經過細部的設計讓層級之間的移動"},{"start":523.931,"end":553.44,"text":"跨區的成績移動他也是很固定式的我覺得要使用我可能用年度的或一季或一個月的方式來使用我覺得這個也是另外的方向去思考這一塊的這個族群因為我想多數的這個很多大專業比如很多大專業教在台北在這個北北基桃但是全台灣有很多學生他是北上來這邊念書或者是流動人口流動要固定的往返的這一塊尤其看到你看到現在包括說我們很多車站也好不論台北也好台中也好高雄也好幾個大站"},{"start":553.8,"end":554.061,"text":"李孟諺"},{"start":572.244,"end":572.344,"text":"部長可以嗎?"},{"start":593.678,"end":593.798,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"154651","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154651","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8f813bdaa6a3a74157345d751ed3a12a67bbd165341284486d6197b49c015b13e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:29:12 - 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不過局限也送 這個本席不反對多線齊發嘛 趕快讓台中的捷運的交通網絡能夠早日來核定 然後得到中央的補助 這個過去本席這麼多年來持續的在爭取所以市政府送案的速度快 本席並不反對但是呢 本席對局限我就非常非常的有意見"},{"start":293.676,"end":302.966,"text":"那如果部長你了解臺中的這個這個地理狀況你就可以知道捷運局線這個001站叫做清泉崗國際機場那清泉崗國際機場離我們海線就清水市區大概3公里"},{"start":312.2,"end":336.261,"text":"大概3公里我也把圖標出來給大家看一下大概3公里但是市政府本席已經講過很多次但是本席是中央民代市政府大概也不大鳥我那所以這個短短的3公里卻不願意把它規劃進去所以我看了市政府送到交通部的案子裡面還是依然沒有這3公里"},{"start":337.992,"end":362.125,"text":"這三公里串聯了可以串聯高鐵可以讓海線過去發展長期最重要的一個城鎮就清水鎮覆地都可以整個包進去但市政府卻不送案所以本席我一直講過我再三強調這個市政府當然市長有他的權利他對於整個城市的規劃發展本席尊重因為他是民選的市長"},{"start":363.117,"end":372.673,"text":"但是啊 送到中央來的案子只要沒有把清水納進去本期對經費 中央經費補助預算本期就大有意見"},{"start":374.133,"end":400.993,"text":"本席就大有意見所以我會在這裡就先預告因為這個只是送案來審查那你要通過到未來整個細部設計到綜合規劃細部設計還有一段時間所以對於補助款項的撥補還有一段時間但本席現在先講我現在再講一次如果局限沒有把清水納入"},{"start":402.154,"end":431.013,"text":"本席對於中央的補助我就會有很強烈的反對意見我希望台中發展但不可以老是把海線給忘了海線已經相對落後的地方這3公里不把它補起來就交通專業來講就區域的發展而言這個都認為是很不正義的事情所以你的TPASS做得再好滿意度再高對我們那裡的人來講感覺很低"},{"start":432.202,"end":436.228,"text":"為什麼感覺很低?我們問一下就沒有捷運堂多但是這TPASS對我們是什麼留言?"},{"start":438.493,"end":465.721,"text":"海線雙軌我們爭取那麼久還好我們當時把整個台中環線做切割本席在當副院長的時候切割啊要求不可以把海線的雙軌化跟環線一起評估一起評估到現在還在評估嘛所以我們當時把它切割讓雙軌化單獨進行評估所以才可以在今年1月啊這個通過"},{"start":466.92,"end":467.944,"text":"這個"},{"start":468.877,"end":494.161,"text":"中央的這個相關的這些可行性評估才可以通過那為什麼要切割因為雙軌化不做我們海線的火車班次就非常的少都會集中在山線而海線到今天還在單軌所以總算我們做了一件對的事情你們也這個從善如流遵照本席的意見把它做切割所以今天可以完成可行性評估接下來進入細部設計跟這個綜合規劃"},{"start":499.63,"end":525.546,"text":"那雙軌化完成之後我們總算才對譬如說你的TPASS我們會有感覺一點是因為我們的火車班次增多了我們海線要去高鐵要到要南北這個做鐵路的時候我們使用這個TPASS的頻率才會高嘛人次才會高嘛否則你中央訂了再好的政策都只是強化那個區域的不公平都只是強化了區域的不正義"},{"start":527.045,"end":549.663,"text":"所以本席今天要探討的是從我們海線的例子來告訴交通部當你們對於地方政府當然我講過市政府要怎麼規劃線路要怎麼畫這是他的權利啦但是中央在面對地方政府要上來爭取經費的時候對於這個區域的公平性啊對於區域的正義一定要這個堅持"},{"start":551.141,"end":569.434,"text":"那本席這個要求不是不合理嗎如果說我要求你把這路線再拉個20公里30公里到某一個地方這個其實是說實在話本位主義太強但是海線的鐵路雙軌化局限延伸到清水其實這個都是"},{"start":571.707,"end":588.342,"text":"政府應該做的沒有道理海線山線塞得要命大家火車密集到那個程度然後火車排不進去但是海線卻放任他這個當軌所以交通部先做了一件對的事情海線讓他雙軌"},{"start":590.593,"end":618.763,"text":"那當然接下來施工要快接下來局限短短的這個3公里就可以串接起這個海線阿非常大的一個區域但你卻到這裡市政府不規劃那交通部沒意見所以我沒有辦法要求市長但我可以要求部長在接下來市府的你們相關的對決運局限的會議跟溝通裡面一定要把本期的意見強烈的表達"},{"start":620.291,"end":631.881,"text":"強烈的表達否則的話本席會認為這個就是強化的區域不正義啦再一次強化區域的不正義所以這一點我希望部長可以來重視這個問題"},{"start":634.308,"end":659.849,"text":"也跟委員報告就是像現在臺中現在只有一條綠線不過藍線目前已經有比較好的進展在過去委員多次的這個催促跟協助現在藍線已經在進行設計的階段那只要機設經過工程會的審議通過之後就可以來辦理相關的發包的階段所以我想藍線已經進入接近實質建設的階段"},{"start":661.61,"end":689.79,"text":"那現在局限目前看起來規劃上就是缺這個往清水這一段的是不是來延伸那這部分我們會來跟臺中市政府再做溝通那來看怎麼樣讓這個部分的這個大家的期待能夠可以得到來實現這是我只是部長講說我知道啦你對臺中市政府的你也不能要求市長怎麼規劃我也不能要求市長怎麼規劃"},{"start":690.931,"end":709.802,"text":"但是別忘了臺中市局限要蓋他必須要中央來支持經費中央如果不支持這個局限是不可能可以蓋的所以我希望在審查的時候你一定要跟市政府講這個是蔡其昌堅持強烈要求"},{"start":711.089,"end":737.863,"text":"沒有做到這個事情我覺得這個是太荒謬的事太離譜太荒謬了海線不是二等公民啊海線雖然人口沒有市區多啊但是都叫台中市啊登記把海線放在旁邊儀器在旁邊讓海線的人當二等公民三等公民這合理嗎這個短短的一小段的路然後可以讓運量也可以增加然後他其實如果如果啦"},{"start":739.534,"end":759.28,"text":"這個市長是我來當我就把他拉到台中港了啦我再連接台中港那又是三公里而已嘛台中港現在發展成這個樣子然後你不把他連結這個我也覺得很荒謬好啦這個後話啦重點就是不可以再放任中央一定要強烈表達"},{"start":761.627,"end":789.849,"text":"對於這個規劃專業以及區域公平的問題這三公里沒有道理不做最後一個藍線剛剛本來我今天沒有要問了時間關係但部長也提到了本席這麼多年來在幫忙協助推動藍線中央的這些相關的經費的協助然後我要問的只有一個問題那個本席要求那個港務公司跟捷運共購這個案子交通部有沒有如你們已經承諾嘛這個當時的行政院"},{"start":790.919,"end":815.305,"text":"也承諾本席臺中港務公司的大樓已經老舊了臺中港長期沒有新的辦公大樓那捷運站在那個地方供購市政府我看他也改了圖了那我們到底這個南線到了這個臺中港港務公司的這一站這個新大樓的規劃有沒有同時如期的在進行"},{"start":817.63,"end":830.674,"text":"是不是會後我們把比較詳細的資料跟委員報告就是把進度跟我講一下啦因為你們已經承諾要做了嘛但是現在進度跟時程到底怎麼抓跟藍線的配合度這個一定要能夠把它連結起來好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154650","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154650","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f83a84f8ce264a1905a39103cf15d5982f7bbd165341284486d0a8f933bb3cebe05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:43:56 - 11:54:58","影片長度":"00:11:02","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:43:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:54:58+08:00","duration":662,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":848,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時43分）請彭主委，還有楊總裁。"],["主席：請彭主委，還有楊總裁嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位好。我想虛擬貨幣大概是最近我們在修洗防法的時候一直在討論的事情，虛擬資產現在已經列為洗防的對象，世界上各種不同的虛擬資產非常地多，目前國際市場上面有所謂的穩定幣，我想今天要談數位貨幣，穩定幣USDT或者USDC，目前是跟美金掛鉤，新加坡跟香港也有在做穩定幣，虛擬資產業者目前有在規劃臺幣的穩定幣，我不知道兩位的看法如何？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，今天另外的主題CBDC是央行的權責，假設一般所謂的穩定幣，剛才委員提出的……"],["黃委員珊珊：我只問你的態度如何。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，在我們現在的規畫裡面，這個部分在洗防上面，我們的主管有兩個要件，一個叫做具有金融投資還有支付的功能，這是我們金管會現在所納管的一個基礎。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，虛擬貨幣也算嘛，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以剛才講的那個穩定幣就比較趨向是具有支付的功能，這個就是我們納管的對象。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。來，總裁，你一定不贊成嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這個穩定幣也是虛擬貨幣的一種……"],["黃委員珊珊：對，拿它跟法幣來做掛鉤。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以據我瞭解，金管會的態度現在就是說要對虛擬貨幣來監管……"],["黃委員珊珊：我沒有什麼意見，我只是說世界上有這樣的趨勢。"],["楊總裁金龍：我知道、我知道，所以……"],["黃委員珊珊：臺灣政府必須要有應對。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，現在談穩定幣，第二個階段就是來看看第一個階段……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在其他的國家都在金融沙盒裡面測試。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯，也就是說，這也是要面對的一個問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以央行的態度是我們要面對，怎麼納管？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果第一個階段他們做了監管以後，我第二個階段再來考慮這個穩定幣的問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：很好，因為這畢竟是未來的世界趨勢，新的金融、新的通路、新的資產商品都有可能發生。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝。接下來請主委。遠見雜誌在今年5月到6月之間有進行臺灣虛擬資產使用行為的調查，裡面很清楚提到，有76%的受訪者是在國外的交易所交易。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：80%認為國際平臺應該來臺落地，我想問一下主委，現在納管的虛擬資產業者有多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在大概是26家。"],["黃委員珊珊：26家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，26家。"],["黃委員珊珊：那有多少使用戶是用國內的資產，你們知道嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分我們還要再去瞭解。"],["黃委員珊珊：還不知道？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們也沒資料，如果已經納管了，不應該沒資料，同仁是不是要跟主委報告一下？有多少人？現在納管的業者有多少客戶？第二個，你有沒有掌握現在在國內使用國外平臺的客戶數量？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分的話，如果……"],["黃委員珊珊：也沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：很抱歉，因為這個部分，現在公會才剛成立，我們正在掌握它怎麼運作。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，主委，如果我們已經把這件事情納入我們洗防的管理對象，我們連最基本的data都沒有，這件事情是很可怕的，而且國際上的交易平臺目前為止很想進來臺灣，但是碰到了很多困難，不知道為什麼，是不想納管它，還是他們沒有資格被納管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在是因為剛剛委員講的，有很多家在申請嘛，我們正在審查中。"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是如果國內的民眾大部分是使用國外的平臺，而這些國外的平臺也願意在臺灣落地，我們是不是應該非常積極地趕快把它納管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：然後來做管理，接下去你才可以控管它的洗防。前面不管，後面要管它的洗防，你管不了啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我想納管的趨勢應該是……"],["黃委員珊珊：我認為我們金管會的態度很奇怪，前面不管，但我管你洗防。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這部分的話，其實我知道還有很多家公司還在審核中。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，大家都想要納管，請金管會積極一點，如果我們的民眾在使用，它就是一個存在的事實。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我上任以後也有跟……"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望這個速度要快一點。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這方面我們也是督促它，希望說在這邊可以……"],["黃委員珊珊：我只能說金管會前面的立場非常非常不積極，而且假裝沒看見，就像我現在講的，沒看見、沒納管，就不關我的事，現在洗防壓進去了，納管的業務壓進去了，你們不得不管，所以新的主委，你必須要把這件事情當作一回事。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們已經很積極的，我想委員應該可以看得到，我們從公會設立，接下來分四個階段……"],["黃委員珊珊：可以再快一點嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們已經承諾年底就會把專法送出來。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，快一點！第二個，納管，現在既然有機制、有26家，但是其他要申請的完全進不來，我當然知道有一些國內的業者有意見，或者是有市場的競爭，我不知道，但是該納管就納管，如果它是國人在用的，你就要好好管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我會請我們的同仁跟委託的單位加速來審查。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。第二個，現在我想知道一下地下的匯兌，目前為止，剛剛講我們洗防加了很多的項目，包括第三方支付、電子支付，還有剛剛講的虛擬資產，所以洗防的業務非常非常地大，金管會在地下匯款化暗為明的部分，其實有做了很多努力，尤其是移工的部分，也開放了4家非銀行的小額匯兌業者。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是目前為止，其實這些移工的人數有大概六十二萬多，然後一年的匯款金額已經達到630億，今年可能會達到800億，其實它是一個很好的方法，額度很小，然後很方便，因為這些移工可以去7-11按1個鍵，24小時可以匯款回去，每個月只有5萬塊的額度，這樣子的話，讓他們可以便宜而且方便地匯款回家，不用像以前，全部都是走地下金融，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是112年起訴了一家匯誠公司，用app「FastPay」的方式非法地提供菲律賓移工小額的匯兌業務，所以有1家被起訴了，我不知道市場上還有沒有很多家，所以這些可能成為洗錢工具，金管會有沒有在列管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想剛剛委員都非常清楚，我們現在有4家合法的，中間也有幾家申請過，我們也否准了幾家，因為他們條件不夠。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，但是他們還在做。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這部分我想因為我們銀行局這邊……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這是你管的嗎？非法匯兌是誰管？非法的匯兌業者是誰管？沒人管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果它是非法匯兌的話，因為現在還不是我們納管的機構，應該就是刑事責任，我們會……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以就是法務部管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，如果我們知道的話，我們就會……"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，你不要站在旁邊，非法匯兌對你有很大的影響，你有沒有在管？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：地下金融是從古到今都有啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：這涉及到中央銀行的部分，就是說我們的移工，就是勞動部它的那個移工仲介……因為我們也知道必須把地下化的轉為地上化。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我們也允許這些仲介……"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來又要開放印度移工了，接下去又可能有更多的白領工作者到臺灣來，其實外匯這件事情就是剛剛講的，不要讓它在地下。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：讓它能夠被列管，如果洗防要管就要好好管。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["黃委員珊珊：而且我們知道它存在，我們不能假裝沒看見。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是，沒有錯、沒有錯，委員講的是沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，現在的問題是，這些app其實都在架上。時間暫停，請數發部。非法匯兌的業者其實都是用app在經營，這些app到目前為止都很方便，可能也都設在國外，剛剛講了，我們看到這種非法匯兌業者不是他們兩個管，那是不是你管？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，現在並不是我們管。"],["黃委員珊珊：也不是你管？所以結論就是沒人管，除非有人檢舉到法務部去，對嗎？數發部，我們相關的這個部分有沒有做巡查呢？沒有？也很難。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：你們沒辦法管，因為它都在Google Play或Apple Store上面。今天我要問的就是，如果我們要把洗防好好管，地下匯兌必須要能夠被掀開來。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：以前連銀樓業者都是地下匯兌，現在開始比較多人走正規的管道，我也希望數發部針對這種非法的app有一個巡查的功能，好嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後一個就是……時間暫停，數發部請回。彭主委，最後就是上次你來拜訪我的時候，我有跟你提過一個最重要的事，根據金融研訓院臺灣金融生活調查，年輕世代的金融素養低落這件事情非常的嚴重，甚至已經高達81.3%的比例是金融素養極低或低，臺灣的年輕人有81%金融素養極低，這個問題是出在哪裡？"],["彭主任委員金隆：誠如委員講的……"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說，大家的金融素養極低或低有81%，而且尤其是越年輕的越低。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想當然也有可能是衡量的問題，不過金管會在整個金融教育上面，我們是做很多努力，也許努力不夠。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我具體的建議，我的時間快到了，但是我要說，學校是一個管道，我在臺北市擔任副市長時，我們去找了很多的銀行協助，捐了一些錢給NGO，他們有臺大的教授還有一些業師到臺北市的高中去開金融素養課程，現在已經成為選修課。也就是說，如果我們可以在學校透過公會，他們本來就有企業社會責任，然後協助你們來做，而不是單單要求金管會來做，甚至學校其實非常非常的歡迎，尤其是對學生來說、對他們來說，那完全是一個新的世界，就像您第一次來跟我說，英國的小學生從一年級就開始學什麼是貨幣、什麼是信用卡、什麼是股票，如果我們從小學到長大都不知道，他到大學以後就不會有金融素養，對吧！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員的指正，我會請綜規處跟我們研訓院看怎麼樣跟學校的資源做結合。"],["黃委員珊珊：學校資源還有業界的資源。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢。","接著我們請李坤城委員，李坤城委員，李坤城委員不在。","接著我們請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.27471875,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.527843750000001,"end":13.952843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.10471875,"end":14.391593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.391593750000002,"end":32.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.38034375,"end":43.079093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.20159375,"end":43.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.517843750000004,"end":58.502843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.99659375,"end":59.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.59971875,"end":65.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.61659375000001,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.86034375,"end":67.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.78409375000001,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.55596875,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.99034375000001,"end":78.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.16221875000001,"end":78.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.09034375,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.30971875,"end":81.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.23659375000001,"end":111.42284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.75909375,"end":92.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.56909375000001,"end":98.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.01471875,"end":107.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.98846875000001,"end":114.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.53659375000001,"end":119.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.30784375,"end":119.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.40471875,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.97846875,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.02909375,"end":129.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.70409375000001,"end":121.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.96409375000002,"end":149.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.41471875000002,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.51596875,"end":136.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.23534375,"end":154.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.64846875,"end":157.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.98096875000002,"end":159.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.66846875000002,"end":166.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.29284375,"end":160.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.57034375,"end":167.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.97534375,"end":175.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.08784375000002,"end":178.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.83846875,"end":184.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.43284375000002,"end":183.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.32721875000001,"end":191.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.96721875,"end":202.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.48034375,"end":211.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.60159375,"end":219.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.79409375,"end":220.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.99659375000002,"end":224.04659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.72159375,"end":228.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.77159375000002,"end":232.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.94034375,"end":229.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.35346875000002,"end":236.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.3990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黃珊珊"},{"start":339.65,"end":364.991,"text":"對。"},{"start":365.523,"end":381.418,"text":"一百一十二年起訴了一家匯存公司用APP配的方式也就是APP的方式非法的提供了菲律賓的移工小額的匯堆業務所以有一家被起訴了我不知道市場上還有沒有很多家所以"},{"start":382.621,"end":404.295,"text":"這些可能成為洗錢工具金管會有沒有在列管我想現在剛才委員都非常清楚我們現在有四家的合法中間我們也申請過幾家我們也否準了幾家因為條件不夠對 但是他們還在做對 這部分的話我想說因為我們銀行局這邊所以這是你管的嗎非法匯兌是誰管非法的匯兌業者是誰管"},{"start":409.225,"end":422.195,"text":"對,他如果說是非法匯兌的話因為他現在還不是我們納管的機構應該就刑事責任我們會...所以就是法務部管對,所以我們知道的話我們就會...來,總裁你不要站在旁邊非法匯兌對你有很大的影響你有沒有在管?"},{"start":424.241,"end":426.082,"text":"接下來又要開放印度移工了"},{"start":449.056,"end":468.647,"text":"接下來有可能更多的白領工作者到臺灣來其實外匯這件事情就是剛剛講不要讓它在地下讓它能夠被列管如果要洗房要管就要好好管而且我們知道它存在我們不能假裝沒看見所以現在的問題是這些APP其實都在架上來速發時間暫停速發布"},{"start":484.304,"end":513.669,"text":"非法匯兌的業者其實都是用APP在經營那這些APP目前為止其實都很方便可能也都設在國外那剛剛講我們看到這種非法匯兌業者不是他們兩個管那是不是你管報告委員現在並不是我們管所以結論就是沒人管除非有人檢舉到法務部去 對嗎還是訴發部我們相關的這個部分有沒有做巡查呢沒有也很難"},{"start":515.04,"end":541.986,"text":"是你們沒辦法管因為它都在Google Play或Apple Store上面好啦今天我要問的就是如果我們要把洗房好好管地下會隊必須要能夠被掀開來是以前連銀樓業者都是地下會隊現在開始比較多人走正規的管道我也希望書發部針對這種非法的APP也有一個巡查的功能好嗎是最後一個就是"},{"start":543.602,"end":545.034,"text":"先暫停出發部請回"},{"start":548.137,"end":575.78,"text":"彭主委最後就是我上次你來拜訪我的時候我要跟你提過的一個最重要的是金融研訓院對於臺灣金融生活調查裡面針對年輕世代的金融素養低落這件事情非常的嚴重甚至已經高達81.3的比例金融素養極低或低臺灣的年輕人81%的金融素養極低這個問題是出在哪裡"},{"start":578.691,"end":595.868,"text":"呃,這個齁,其實我們呃,誠如委員講,我們...因為大家的金融素養極低或低百分之八十一而且尤其是越年輕的越低對,我想這是當然也有可能衡量的問題不過我們儘管會在整個金融教育上面我們是做很多努力,也許努力不夠"},{"start":596.488,"end":621.249,"text":"所以主委我具體的建議時間我的時間快到了但是我要說學校是一個管道我們在台北市的時候我在擔任副市長我們去找了很多的銀行協助捐了一些錢給NGO他們由台大的教授還有台大的業師到台北市的高中去開金融素養課程現在已經成為選修課也就是說如果我們可以在學校"},{"start":621.809,"end":644.909,"text":"通過工會他們本來就有企業社會責任然後協助你們來做而不是單單要求金管會來做甚至學校其實非常非常的歡迎尤其是學生來說但是對他們來說完全是一個新的世界就像您第一次來跟我說英國的小學生從一年級就開始學什麼是貨幣、什麼是信用卡、什麼是股票"},{"start":645.469,"end":645.609,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊"}]}},{"id":"154649","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154649","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f83a4fa0776acb47d5ca0ece664f026f7b7bbd16534128448687ea78fc2deb64d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:45:54 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案 〈核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案〉案 〈核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈核"},{"start":31.065,"end":58.504,"text":"呃...陳志瑞、林市長跟曾總市長齁我想請問喔你們知道現在河山廠的就是它的正下方喔就有一條斷層經過嗎?知道嗎?知不知道?知道齁那知不知道這是一條活動斷層知道嗎?第二類活動斷層第二類活動斷層好那我請問一下當初河山廠在建廠的時候知道下面有活動斷層嗎?"},{"start":60.577,"end":87.017,"text":"這個應該是新的市政啦也就是說當初核三廠在建廠的時候是不知道它的正下方有一條活動斷層的嗎那什麼時候才知道下面有一條活動斷層是2009年吧2009年地調所公告的時候才知道這意思是什麼呢這意思來說來看我們現在已經知道核三廠它的地點"},{"start":88.365,"end":113.595,"text":"其實相對來說它並不是一個安全的地點。我相信如果當年在建廠的時候知道這下方有一條活動斷層我們不會把核三廠蓋在這裡。剛剛有好幾位在黨的委員提到國外有一些嚴厲的、嚴議的案例但我相信這些核電廠的下方沒有一條活動斷層通過這個核電廠的正下方。"},{"start":117.912,"end":143.042,"text":"今天不管政治上面我們怎麼吵但這一條通過核電廠正下方的活動斷層就是擺在眼前的事實所以我說如果現在在野黨要來討論核三的演繹的話我認為比較負責任的應該是要多去討論那到底怎麼面對這個斷層到底安全的評估如何但對不起"},{"start":144.653,"end":168.164,"text":"我們其實在今天委員會的討論裡面我們幾乎看不到在野黨對於這一條斷層所帶來的安全風險的問題有任何嚴肅的討論我們感覺很像要在沒有對這個斷層的風險做出討論之前就要急急忙忙的來放寬核安管制的法規這讓人覺得非常非常的不安啊"},{"start":171.004,"end":197.143,"text":"今天我們主席、科委員他也可能立志他要選高雄我相信啊大家看到現在在場這種匆匆忙忙然後沒有討論核能安全的問題就想要急著出委員急著想要修法的態度我不知道高雄人接不接受我不知道南部人接不接受所以今天我很明確"},{"start":199.005,"end":220.849,"text":"今天不管你是哪一黨派的不管你的立場為何這個電廠下面活動斷層經過恆春斷層是南部最大的活動斷層這件事情就擺在眼前嘛那怎麼面對嘛怎麼處理嘛為什麼其他的核電廠下面都沒有斷層只有這條有斷層為什麼說過了嘛因為之前不知道嘛"},{"start":228.035,"end":255.652,"text":"不知道才會在這一個相對風險高相對不安全的地方來蓋核電廠嗎?那我們現在再有一次機會我們要不要繼續在這一個斷層上面活動斷層上的核電廠繼續承擔這個風險這是我們要做決定的事情嘛我要提一個喔其實地震帶上的核電廠的安全最近有個案例可以參考今年的1月能登半島一樣發生規模7的地震"},{"start":257.52,"end":283.214,"text":"南南半島附近也有六座核電廠那在三一福島核災後其實日本針對核災發生後的疏散計畫其實做了蠻多嚴密的加強跟改進但在這一次南南半島的事件裡面其實媒體都有報導大家發現了幾件事情一樣如果戶外是有輻射的但政府規定要待在家裡躲輻射但對不起防射都倒了請問要躲在哪裡"},{"start":284.773,"end":294.612,"text":"沒有避難的地方。」第二個,復興的居民說要疏散,但道路中斷,連疏散都沒有辦法,連輻射的側站,對不起,"},{"start":295.796,"end":317.787,"text":"都被正道訊號中斷。」所以你根本搞不清楚到底輻射的熱點在哪裡,也包括整個通訊是中斷的。所以當今天遇到地震的時候的複合性的災難,很多地方都跟原本設想的是不一樣的。這樣子的疏散的情境,這樣子的核災的情境,我們是可以透過現在的例子裡面來做參考的。但很抱歉啊,"},{"start":318.487,"end":336.859,"text":"我們今天在這個委員會裡面有沒有任何一個人嚴肅討論這些實際上面已經發生的災害的狀況我們怎麼面對沒有在這些沒有討論的狀況之下就要匆匆忙忙來放寬核安管制的法規如果未來這些狀況發生誰要負責誰要負責如果這個風險的狀況發生如果這個災害的狀況發生誰要負責我要問主委你能負責嗎"},{"start":349.69,"end":351.172,"text":"這就是一個在地震帶上的核電廠發生狀況以後所遇到的諸多"},{"start":371.087,"end":398.233,"text":"你無法想像的困境逃逃不出去連車站輻射值都不知道通訊也中斷根本不知道怎麼避難但我們居然要在這樣的情境下面就要來放寬核能管制的法規我真的要奉勸大家我覺得核電的政策可以討論但核安的議題我相信就算支持核電的人也不希望台灣發生核災也不希望台灣受到核災的威脅"},{"start":399.872,"end":416.786,"text":"可是現在在立法院裡面討論的這種方式我們其實針對像這個具體發生的問題我們得不到答案啊在沒有答案之前就要鬆綁核安法規我真的要奉勸大家不應該這樣做"},{"start":420.083,"end":442.598,"text":"如果到時候發生了沒有人可以負責沒有人可以被究責這是我們最擔心的事情我們希望等一下我們的審議可以審慎可以把真的核安的問題、核非法的問題做一個綜合的討論以後今天我們要修的不是能源法規今天在野黨要修的是核能安全法規是要放鬆放寬核能安全法規我希望主委要秉持專業的立場從專業來說話謝謝"},{"start":449.158,"end":451.197,"text":"好,謝謝請各位回座"}]}},{"id":"154648","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154648","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8e30812bd7b62b82ba9bb3959728069a07bbd165341284486b3d58fd2b68507d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:40:54 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11:52:17","影片長度":"00:11:23","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:40:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:52:17+08:00","duration":683,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":638,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時41分）謝謝主席，有請數位部政次跟國防部顧部長，政次先好了。"],["主席：請數位部。"],["林委員楚茵：政次，剛剛洪申翰委員的質詢，我個人強烈的建議，您可能需要好好的在質詢臺上再一次的面對我。雖然我不是很清楚洪申翰委員的質詢內容，不過您剛剛的態度已經超越了一個專業的部長，您現在代表的是數位部，所應該回應的問題，什麼叫做17個月沒有得到回應很正常？您有沒有覺得對於剛剛備詢的態度是錯誤的？"],["闕次長河鳴：報告委員，我只是在描述國土辦在核定關鍵基礎設施是每兩年評估一次，如果洪申翰委員提出意見的時候是在兩次評估的中間，在下一次核定之前，我們絕對會重視所有立委的意見，但是在下一次核定之前，這一個期程並不會因為有立委的意見而能夠提前，因為關鍵基礎設施的核定有既定的期程，並不會因為新聞媒體的報導或者是立委的質詢然後能夠更改這一個期程的設定。"],["林委員楚茵：好，你現在的回應，我覺得聽起來就能夠理解您帶著您的專業給予了正確的答案。我知道您來自於民間，剛剛我也看了一下您過去在交通大學，您也學有專長，過去也曾經在我們的公部門當中擔任相關的職務，那麼希望您現在是帶著數位部，因為您今天是代表部長，早上我才跟黃部長一起出席了資安大聯盟的記者會，所以我知道他今天也在出席活動，大家都對於你們的專業給予肯定，但是進來了這樣的一個行政團隊之後，不要忘了，您也代表著是您自己的發言。我也給你時間做解釋了，我希望稍後您能夠跟洪申翰委員再好好地溝通，因為這不是一個面對立法院質詢該有的態度，我也必須要讓您知道，因為包括剛剛連主席都會希望你好好的把話說清楚，不能因為您在意見上面你覺得、你認為你站得住腳，你的態度上就對委員不尊敬，可以嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：謝謝委員的指教。"],["林委員楚茵：好，您請稍後。","主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。這個我其實在上個月的時候質詢過了，就是有關於中共的滲透，不一定要認為是中共的滲透啦，就是對於國軍的滲透，不論是給予資料的滲透、是利誘這些，其實都一直實質的存在，這個當時你也看過了。不過我要告訴您的是，我質詢至今約一個月了，但這樣的廣告依舊存在。因為時間有限，我直接跳到我的下一個部分，曾經有研究報導指出，對於國軍的滲透，現在透過社群平臺的樣態有裸拍，所謂裸拍是叫國軍直接就秀出他堅實的肌肉，然後這個照片放上來之後可以得到一定的片酬，但是重點是要給軍人證；再來是低利貸款，這個前面剛剛就有；另外一個是高額徵稿，這個徵稿呢，一篇文章大概可以拿到5萬塊，但重點都在於他必須要有軍人證。這三種樣態是不是透過社群平臺在做一種滲透？我想問部長，你們有沒有掌握？因為我也必須強調，這樣的文章早在2023年的時候就被揭露，只是這個樣態是持續存在，而國軍到底有沒有相關的單位在注意這樣的事情呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這樣一個，就是我們要對國軍做好相關的保防教育啦，應該是說，如果有這樣的情況，當然一方面，對於網路平臺這樣的部分要如何讓它能夠下架，這是一件事情，但是跟國軍說要跟他拿軍人證這件事情，他就要有一個警覺，對這樣一個警覺性的存在，我們要不斷的去宣導這樣的警覺性。"],["林委員楚茵：好，除了警覺性的存在之外，部長，其實我比較關注的是，當然，因為你剛接任，確實有很多問題存在，也可能需要您一樣一樣的來關注，但這個是2023年當時相關的期刊論文跟報導就已經出現了，所以我其實想請你回去瞭解的是，這樣的樣態現在存在之外，那是個案還是其實這些年來有一些相關的防制方式，包括了我剛剛講到的，其實我為什麼最前面顯示在螢幕上的是我一個月之前在6月6號的質詢料，我要強調的是它們到現在都還掛在社群平臺當中。","今天數位部也在，我要做一個提醒，之前針對金管會處理有關於詐騙的這種不實廣告，我曾經質詢過，金管會透過數位部其實跟這些社群平臺是有所謂的綠色通道，一旦通報就馬上下架；農委會也有，因為我也曾經質詢過有關於一般民眾偷渡一些中國或其他地方的種子就直接放在臉書上販售，這個是違反農業部相關的法規。今天數位部也在這裡，我想問兩位，就是國防部跟數位部之間有沒有所謂的綠色通道，可以要求Meta、Google或LINE來做一個下架？如果沒有，那麼是不是可以現在來建立？因為我要強調的是這些樣態都是在社群平臺上去招攬，到現在我都還可以找到類似這樣的，不論是要求軍人裸拍，還是給低利貸，又或者是高額徵稿。甚至於現在還有另外一種，是媒體也發現的，他不是要你軍人自拍，是要軍人去拍你現在所看到的美景，這個某種程度就是要他洩露他所處在的位置跟軍事機密。所以如果看到這種樣態的貼文的時候，請問國防部跟數位部有所謂的綠色通道可以立刻要求即刻下架嗎？部長？數位部？沒關係。"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，數位部的綠色通道是對所有部會開放的，所以比如說教育部那邊如果有兒少法相關的，就是有法律依據要求數位部通過綠色通道去下架，我們都會積極辦理。"],["林委員楚茵：好，其實治標是剛剛我詢問部長的，就是在這三大樣態當中，過去這一年多以來，到底有沒有做必要的防制或是必要的宣導或是必要的處置，對於我們國軍弟兄的心理素質或是對他們的狀況做瞭解。但是亡羊補牢的部分，我提出一個解套的方法，就是綠色通道既然存在，我也希望國防部能夠使用，一旦發現這樣的樣態的時候，是不是有一個什麼樣的單位可以馬上去跟數發部做聯絡？部長？"],["顧部長立雄：我個人現在可能要研議一下我們有關這個下架的依據，這個可能需要做個研議。"],["林委員楚茵：我的意思是，下架的依據是當你看到這種要求職業軍人裸拍，或是對職業軍人以低利來誘拐他們，算誘拐嗎？就是吸引他們來做這個借貸，又或者是高額的徵稿，這樣的過程中他不涉及不法嗎？或不涉及所謂機密上面的安全嗎？尤其是要求軍人提供軍人證明或軍人證等等。如果有，那麼就軍方內部來講，不是就應該要求這種樣態的滲透方式的貼文下架嗎？部長？"],["顧部長立雄：我們可能沒有辦法去處理到下架這個部分，但是我們會處理到國軍在這方面的一個警覺意識，然後讓他有一個正確的理財的觀念，或者是一個正確保護個資的概念，或者是保護國防相關機密的一個概念，這樣子的一個宣導是很重要的。我們也會做一些相關的查核，來查核與這個官兵相關的一些問題或狀況，這個部分可能是我們可以持續來加強、來進行的。"],["林委員楚茵：好。部長，謝謝你的回應。我的言下之意就是，數位部其實跟社群平臺，是有所謂的一個下架的綠色通道，他們會去處理下架的過程，包括過去我看到的金融詐騙，或者是名人的假部落格、假的粉絲專頁做假的股友社等等，這個部分金管會會通報數位部，它會來做下架，金管會會有它的法規。","同樣的，農業部對於這種非法帶入臺灣內部的生鮮，或者是種子等等，這是農業部所管轄，農業部如果一旦覺得有違法，它會通報數位部。同樣的，我剛剛質詢的脈絡只是要來提醒，前面我講到的這三個樣態。剛剛就質詢來說，您也覺得這個不合理、不合規，甚至包括會有對於國軍的滲透。如果你們覺得這些發文的內容是有問題的，就可以聯絡數位部，由他們來通知平臺下架。所以言下之意，我期望的是，國防部跟數位部也要建立起這樣的聯絡管道，因為剛剛數位部的闕政次也說了，他其實是對各部會來進行開放，那麼我只希望亡羊補牢的時候，你們這條線能夠連結起來，就是這個意思，可以嗎，部長？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們跟數位部來研議，因為現在這個部分也有涉及到打詐相關的可能議題，所以打詐專法的部分，如果能夠通過的話，也許讓我們這個部分下架的法律依據會更堅強一點，這樣子。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有林憶君委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員口頭質詢，未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林楚茵","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革\n新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學\n及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.6297187500000003,"end":5.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.8153437500000003,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.097843750000001,"end":4.334093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.79784375,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.31971875,"end":23.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.044093750000002,"end":37.409093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.79721875,"end":42.150968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.517843750000004,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.16721875,"end":49.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.149718750000005,"end":53.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.149093750000006,"end":69.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.11284375000001,"end":82.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.25846875,"end":84.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.40159375,"end":98.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.27284375,"end":141.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.46034375000002,"end":142.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.92846875,"end":149.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.35784375,"end":150.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.48846875,"end":152.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.72846875000002,"end":154.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.91721875000002,"end":161.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.95096875000002,"end":161.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.98034375,"end":173.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.04596875000001,"end":175.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.15534375000001,"end":179.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.68221875,"end":185.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.75721875000002,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.49471875,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.48221875000002,"end":248.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.42659375000002,"end":254.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.13034375,"end":262.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.19659375000003,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.42159375,"end":330.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.91596875000005,"end":333.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.05471875,"end":360.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.95346875,"end":400.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.36909375000005,"end":417.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.90221875000003,"end":419.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.70784375000005,"end":421.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.58534375000005,"end":422.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.71596875,"end":427.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.30159375000005,"end":439.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.99596875000003,"end":440.89034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.36284375,"end":459.87471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.95909375,"end":461.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.45659375,"end":475.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.90159375,"end":477.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.11659375000005,"end":487.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.48221875,"end":492.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.59096875000006,"end":495.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.76784375000005,"end":527.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.15096875,"end":528.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.29846875,"end":529.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.6484687500001,"end":570.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.18784375,"end":536.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.3047187500001,"end":641.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.3147187500001,"end":650.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.56221875,"end":670.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.04846875,"end":671.8584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.2209687500001,"end":675.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.0178437500001,"end":678.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.0515937499999,"end":678.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.4565937500001,"end":678.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.5322187500001,"end":682.20284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.229,"end":17.911,"text":"請數位部政次跟國防部部長政次先好了好請數位部好政次剛剛對於洪聖翰委員的那個質詢我個人強烈的建議您可能需要好好的在質詢台上再一次的面對我"},{"start":18.251,"end":40.231,"text":"雖然我不是很清楚洪森漢委員的質詢的內容不過您剛剛的態度已經超越了一個專業的部長或者是一個專業您現在代表的是數位部所應該回應的問題什麼叫做17個月沒有答沒有得到回應很正常您有沒有覺得剛剛的質詢的態度是錯誤的"},{"start":43.758,"end":59.847,"text":"報告委員我只是在描述國土辦在核定關鍵基礎設施是每兩年評估一次那如果洪森漢委員在提出提出他的意見的時候是在這兩次的中間那在下一次核定之前"},{"start":61.508,"end":82.527,"text":"我們絕對會重視所有立委的意見但是在下一次核定之前這一個期程並不會因為有立委的意見而能夠提前因為關鍵技術設施的核定它有既定的期程並不會因為新聞媒體的報導或是立委的質詢然後能夠更改這一個期程的設定"},{"start":83.322,"end":101.528,"text":"好,你現在回應,我覺得聽起來就能夠理解您帶著您的專業給予了正確的答案。我知道您來自於民間,剛剛我也看了一下您過去在交通大學,那您也學有專長,過去也曾經都在我們的公部門當中也都有擔任相關的這個職務。"},{"start":103.689,"end":123.952,"text":"那麼希望您現在是在的數位部因為您今天是代表部長因為早上我才跟黃部長一起出席了資安大聯盟的記者會所以說我知道他今天也在出席活動大家都對於你們的專業給予肯定但是進來了這樣的一個行政團隊之後不要忘了您也代表的是您自己的發言"},{"start":124.633,"end":124.933,"text":"主席有請顧部長請部長"},{"start":161.156,"end":184.669,"text":"是林委好部長好這個我其實在上個月的時候質詢過了就是有關於中共的滲透又或者是說我不一定要認為是中共的滲透啦就是對於國軍的滲透不論是給予資料的滲透是利誘這些其實都一直實質的存在那這個當時你也看過了不過我要告訴您的是我質詢了一個月"},{"start":186.002,"end":201.933,"text":"這樣的廣告依舊存在因為我剛剛時間有限我直接跳到我下一個部分就是曾經有研究報導指出對於國軍的滲透現在透過社群的平台有裸拍所謂裸拍是叫國軍直接就秀出他堅實的肌肉"},{"start":203.634,"end":215.408,"text":"然後這個照片上來之後可以得到一定的片酬但是重點是要給軍人證再來低利貸款這這個前面剛剛就有另外一個是高額徵稿這個徵稿呢一篇文章"},{"start":218.351,"end":242.788,"text":"大概可以拿到五萬塊但重點都在於他必須要有軍人證這三種樣態是不是透過社群平台在做一種滲透我想問部長你們有沒有掌握因為我也必須強調這樣的文章他早在2023年的時候就被揭露只是這個樣態是持續存在而國軍到底有沒有相關的官位在注意這樣的事情呢"},{"start":245.115,"end":269.537,"text":"我想像相關這樣子的一個就是說我們要對國軍做好這個相關的這些保防的這些教育那應該是說如果有這樣子的一種當然一方面這個網路平台像這樣子的部分那要如何讓它能夠下架這是一件事情"},{"start":270.157,"end":285.437,"text":"但是國軍說要跟他拿軍人證這件事情那他就要有一個警覺對這樣的一個警覺性的一個存在我們要不斷的去宣導這樣子的警覺性除了警覺性的存在之外部長其實我比較關注當然因為你現在剛接任"},{"start":288.42,"end":294.502,"text":"確實是很多的問題那麼都存在也可能需要您一樣一樣的來關注但這個是2023年當時相關的期刊論文跟報導就已經出現了所以我其實比較想了解請你回去了解的是那麼這樣的樣態它現在存在"},{"start":304.446,"end":329.091,"text":"之外那是個案還是說其實這些年來有一些相關的防制的方式包括了我剛剛講到其實我為什麼會拿最前面的這一個我一個月之前我6月6號質詢我要強調的是他們到現在都還掛在社群平台當中今天數位部也在喔我要做一個提醒就是不論是金管會有關於詐騙"},{"start":330.951,"end":353.946,"text":"的這種不實的廣告金管會我曾經質詢過那麼金管會透過數位部他其實跟這些社群平台是有所謂的綠色通報一旦通報馬上下架農委會也有因為我也曾經質詢過有關於一般的民眾偷渡一些中國或其他地方的種子就直接放在臉書上販售這個是違反我們農業部相關的法規那麼今天數位部也在這裡我想問兩位"},{"start":361.051,"end":377.76,"text":"就是那國防部跟數位部之間有沒有所謂的綠色通道可以要求Meta、Google或Line來做一個下架如果沒有那麼是不是可以現在來做一個建立因為我要強調的這些樣態都是從哪裡來都是從社群平台去招攬到現在我都還可以找到類似的這樣的不論是要求軍人裸拍還是給低利貸又或者是高額徵稿"},{"start":389.986,"end":390.006,"text":"部長．"},{"start":420.931,"end":439.011,"text":"蘇衛部 沒關係跟委員報告蘇衛部的綠色通道是對所有部會開放的好所以只要比如說比如說教育部他教育部這邊如果有兒少法相關的就是有法律依據要求蘇衛部通過綠色通道去下架那我們都會積極辦理"},{"start":440.046,"end":460.614,"text":"好 其實 治標是剛剛我詢問部長的就是在這三大樣態當中過去這一年多以來到底有沒有做必要的防制或是必要的宣導或是必要的處置對於我們國軍弟兄的心理素質或是對他們的狀況做了解但是亡羊補牢的部分就是我提出一個"},{"start":462.483,"end":477.346,"text":"呃"},{"start":478.246,"end":492.172,"text":"我個人當然現在可能要研議一下我們有關這個下架的依據這可能需要做個研議我的意思是下架的依據是當你看到這種要求"},{"start":494.229,"end":502.312,"text":"職業軍人裸拍或是職業軍人去用以低利來誘拐他們算誘拐嗎好就是吸引他們來做這個借貸又或者是高額的徵稿這樣的過程中他不涉及不法嗎或不涉及所謂機密上面的安全嗎尤其是要求軍人提供軍人證明或軍人證等等"},{"start":517.856,"end":527.028,"text":"如果有,那麼就軍方的內部來講,不是就應該要要求這樣的樣態的滲透方式的貼文下架嗎?部長"},{"start":531.045,"end":559.664,"text":"我們可能沒有辦法去處理到下架這個部分但是我們會處理到國軍在這個方面的一個警覺意識然後讓他有一個正確的一個理財的觀念或者是一個正確的一個保護各自的一個概念或者是保護這個國防相關機密的一個概念這樣子的一個宣導是很重要的那我們也會做一些相關的查核來查核這個官兵所相關的一些"},{"start":562.125,"end":571.348,"text":"部長謝謝你的回應我的言下之意就是數位部他其實跟社群平台是有所謂的一個下架的綠色通道他們會去處理所謂下架的這個過程包括過去我看到的金融詐騙或者是名人的這個假的部落格"},{"start":587.734,"end":591.077,"text":"假的這個所謂的粉絲專頁來做假的這種古有色等等那這個部分金管會會通報數位部他會來做下架那麼金管會會有他的法規同樣的農業部對於這種非法帶入台灣內部的生鮮"},{"start":602.93,"end":612.695,"text":"或者是總子等等這是農業部所管轄農業部如果一旦覺得有違法他會通報數位部那麼同樣的我剛剛質詢的脈絡只是要來提醒就是前面我所講到的這個三個樣態剛剛就質詢來說您也覺得這個不合理嗎不合規嗎甚至於包括會有對於國軍的滲透那麼如果你們覺得這些發文的內容是有問題的就可以聯絡數位部由他們來通知平台下架"},{"start":631.826,"end":649.963,"text":"所以言下之意我期望的是國防部跟數位部也要建立起這樣的聯絡管道因為剛剛數位部的缺陣子也說了他其實是對各部會來進行開放那麼我只希望就是亡羊補牢的時候你們這條線能夠連結起來就是這個意思可以嗎部長"},{"start":650.663,"end":671.652,"text":"是,我們來跟數位部來研議因為現在那個因為這個部也有涉及到黨詐這相關的可能的一個議題所以黨詐專法的部分如果能夠通過的話也許讓我們這個部分的這個下架的這個法律預計會更堅強一點好,謝謝好,謝謝今天"},{"start":680.596,"end":681.164,"text":"今天已登記質詢"}]}},{"id":"154647","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154647","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f84250628293bc0924ca0ece664f026f7b7bbd165341284486c01daae652d257f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:40:45 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核安會主委有請請主委劉委員好"},{"start":18.379,"end":47.048,"text":"主委今天大家都在討論核電演繹的問題大概兩個層面一個叫做民意的變化第二個叫做國際的趨勢民意的變化我想剛剛王鴻薇委員講得非常清楚超過63%到64%左右的人民基本上是贊成用開放的態度來務實的處理核電演繹的問題過去曾經有一段時間確實反核聲音是非常大甚至都講出了我是人我反核我請問核安會主委現在如果60幾%的人希望核電演繹請問他們不是人嗎"},{"start":50.215,"end":75.032,"text":"當然是人啦是嘛 對不對所以民意本來就是變化的所以換言之我們作為政治人物決定國家的政策當然要跟民意為依歸啊所以不要去講說這是這不應該是藍綠惡鬥的問題應該是務實面對國家挑戰的問題喔第二個我要講國際趨勢喔這個本期今天早上來出席在龜山我的選區一個算力中心的一個開幕典禮這個我本來要在那個地方待到典禮完成還要上去致詞"},{"start":75.712,"end":91.129,"text":"但是後來看時間實在來不及我只好提早離開為什麼呢因為我在下面跟他們聊天的時候他們的人直接講報告委員今天很高興你來但是我們這個算力中心順利運作我們缺電這個算力中心背後是美商在投資他們說連美國人都覺得很疑惑為什麼"},{"start":92.951,"end":109.157,"text":"為什麼當全世界需要AI發展AI發展電動車等等產業的時候台灣的能源政策如此僵化為什麼不務實地使用核能我聽到他們這樣講我就決定好吧我覺得今天的質詢好像還是比較重要所以我就提早離開了我們今天就舉幾個國際的例子來做一下討論先舉韓國的例子韓國總統尹錫悅2022年就任之後基本上就開始了大核電時代這個"},{"start":116.9,"end":138.061,"text":"以他的這個能源戰略來看2018年的時候核電佔比23.4%煤41.9天然氣26.8韓國再生源恐怕沒有我們走得快也沒有我們走得早但是淨零碳排是全世界共通面對的趨勢所以他們在2036年預計核電佔比提升到34%煤炭大幅下降到19%天然氣22%微幅下降"},{"start":141.864,"end":159.26,"text":"當然也要把再生能源的空間撐出來所以有30%的再生能源其實這樣子的一個能源戰略路徑其實就標準叫以核養綠務實減碳他為了把30%的再生能源的量擠出來他不得不依賴現有的核電甚至合理的來增加其實這不只是韓國嘛日本的核電廠研議了沒"},{"start":159.901,"end":162.943,"text":"韓國政府為什麼要決定把核電的占比再往上提高?第一蓋新機組的花費時間遠遠超過舊機組研議"},{"start":178.832,"end":202.391,"text":"這我們郭智慧部長也講了嘛至少6年而且還不進入人民反對這樣子的一個變化的因素。第二韓國如果發展AI產業資訊中心就是我剛講的算力中心還有電動車相關的產業不管怎麼樣電力需求必然大增。第三如果不使用核電必然要使用天然氣發電但天然氣的成本昂貴而且運輸是另外隱形的成本。"},{"start":203.112,"end":221.322,"text":"台灣跟韓國在產業上有若干的相似跟競爭之處,AI產業我們難道不跟他們競爭嗎?一定要拼的嘛,對不對?總不能輸掉下一個20年,下一個30年。我們也都想發展高比例的再生能源,他們有風場,我們也有風場。他們的土地面積還比我們大一些,發展太陽能也很有潛力。但即便是這樣子,他們也沒有捨棄核電不是嗎?"},{"start":222.142,"end":236.73,"text":"那我們今天如果故不知風非常僵化不是非常奇怪的事嗎?剛剛有很多人講40年的老舊機組好可怕好像會吃人的一樣請問主委這個美國總共有幾個核電反應爐?大概90幾座94座對不對?他們都運轉幾年了?超過40年大概有50幾座57座超過40年"},{"start":247.489,"end":256.334,"text":"已經有50幾座,超過40年對不對?我跟你講總共有85顆啊,達到40年的運轉期限之後,申請再研議,再研議幾年?再研議20年對不對?所以說94顆裡面有85顆啊,40年運轉期滿之後可以再搞20年啊,並且已經有61顆其實已經超過40年的運轉期限了,這叫國際趨勢啊。我們為什麼要對於科技,我們為什麼要對於技術那麼沒有信心呢?"},{"start":273.783,"end":302.195,"text":"我想全世界大概沒有幾個國家像台灣一樣還主動立法阻斷務實可用的發電工具啊我們不反對核安會秉持你的本位好好的嚴審把關這沒有問題嘛大家都不會反對不是嗎可是用一個法令自解自廢武功自己把手腳打斷然後說我們要迎向未來AI產業挑戰迎向未來淨零碳排的趨勢我覺得是笑話一則我希望政府在今天修法的時候可以用務實而且長遠的觀點來看待這件事情以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154646","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154646","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f85981951a6d77790ca39103cf15d5982f7bbd1653412844861143f66db424e4555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:32:19 - 11:43:25","影片長度":"00:11:06","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:32:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:43:25+08:00","duration":666,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時32分）謝謝主席，我們請金管會主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委好。金管會在今年3月初的時候曾表示，今年有要赴大陸做金檢的規劃，3月份正在向陸委會報備中，至於何時金檢，就要看後續的聯繫，時間原則希望是在上半年。你知道上半年什麼意思嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：已經過了。"],["陳委員玉珍：過了，你也知道過了，不過這不是在你任內說的，是前主委說的。好，新人有新氣象，請問你們現在還要到大陸去做金檢嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們對市場的管理是會按照我們表定的程序來做，我們還是對於所有的金融機構，不管在各地都是希望能夠做一個檢查的程序。"],["陳委員玉珍：是、是，講得很好，但沒有回答，會去做嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們還是希望去檢查。"],["陳委員玉珍：是嘛！希望什麼時候？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為這個部分畢竟不是我們能夠全部決定的，還要跟……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，你有向陸委會提出申請嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分的話，我們是有按照程序在進行中。"],["陳委員玉珍：有申請嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有往那邊要去檢查這樣子的……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是還沒申請？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在還在溝通協商中。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在7月了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們已經……"],["陳委員玉珍：來，檢查局長，檢查局長不是要退休了嗎？再回答也……"],["張局長子浩：我們都依照程序向陸委會先報備。"],["陳委員玉珍：已經有申請了？"],["張局長子浩：都報備了。"],["陳委員玉珍：有在報備，打算什麼時候去？還是會不會因為兩岸關係不佳就不去了？"],["張局長子浩：我們看對方的答復。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是啊！如果對方給你去，你會不會因為兩岸關係不好就不去？"],["張局長子浩：對方如果……"],["陳委員玉珍：陸委會昨天說要帶什麼新的電腦、新的平板、新的什麼東西，恐嚇人民啊！你們這樣怎麼檢查呢？"],["張局長子浩：如果對方同意，我們就會過去。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們就會過去？那你會帶新的電腦、新的手機跟新的平板嗎？你會嗎？主委你會嗎？"],["張局長子浩：我們的每一個同仁要檢查時的那個平板都是我們公家配發的，我們都有考慮到這些安全的相關設備，都有考慮。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是陸委會說要帶新的過去耶！你不知道？"],["張局長子浩：對，我們再瞭解。"],["陳委員玉珍：陸委會胡說八道，沒關係。主委，這個金檢事實上是要落實對大陸分行的監督管理，看他們的風控、內稽內控有沒有做好，對人民在大陸的資產也很重要，這也是要重視，排除萬難去做相關應該做的事情。","我們請數位發展部，今天有來嘛！次長有來。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["陳委員玉珍：是新的次長。"],["林次長宜敬：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：次長好。我想跟你討論金門數位建設發展的事宜，為了鼓勵電信事業在全國設置行動及固定寬頻網路，你們有訂定好各項補助辦法，在電信事業普及服務基金及前瞻預算有在做，你知道這件事嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：是，知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道，太好了。來，請看金門的數位發展，同樣身為離島的金門、連江及澎湖，你看111年，我們的補助跟澎湖一樣，到了112年，為什麼金門縣沒有被補助行動寬頻的計畫？你不知道？"],["林次長宜敬：對，我不知道，抱歉。"],["陳委員玉珍：你是新來的嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：是，我來不到兩個月。"],["陳委員玉珍：來不到兩個月也不能不知道啊！你知道要來財政委員會……"],["林次長宜敬：沒有，如果我有資料，我查的話我可以查得到。"],["陳委員玉珍：我也可以查得到啊！那我還要問你嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：但是你突然問我，我真的是沒辦法回答。"],["陳委員玉珍：是沒有準備，好，沒關係。"],["林次長宜敬：抱歉、抱歉、抱歉。"],["陳委員玉珍：另外您看看，補助偏鄉防救災的這個也很重要，像我們昨天全島大停電，對不對？這個行動通訊基礎建置計畫，你看看金門、連江、澎湖，又再次沒有把我們金門列進去，111年跟112年都是無、無，然後澎湖是256萬、635萬，像我們昨天全島大停電，包括通訊、水、碼頭、機場，各項重大的國安比如軍事基地全部都停電，這多重大的國安危機啊！你們在偏鄉裡頭、在離島裡頭的強化救災行動的這種計畫竟然沒有把我們列進去，什麼原因？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，這件事情我們回去會檢討，我們會再提供書面報告給委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：多久呢？"],["林次長宜敬：一個禮拜之內我們會提供。"],["陳委員玉珍：很好、很好，你不是找救兵上來，怎麼還沒有辦法回答？是連下面都不知道嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：因為今天我們以為是要講數位貨幣的部分，所以我們今天來的單位不一樣。"],["陳委員玉珍：新的次長到各個委員會，我跟您切磋一下，到委員會上來回答不知道是會上全國新聞的。請問，從民國104年開始，金門4年的綜建計畫就提到要把金門建設成為E-Island先鋒智慧島，這個就是讓每個人到金門要參觀、要旅遊的時候就馬上可以有無線網路，知道怎麼玩等等，這個其實是很重要的，我們希望數發部在這個部分可以持續大力補助我們數位基礎建設，沒有問題吧？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有問題吧？"],["林次長宜敬：可以，沒問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：可以，沒問題吧？我只跟離島比，不要下次再讓我看到別的離島縣市、別的縣市都有，然後金門都是0、0、0，這樣子我沒有辦法接受，可以嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：是，可以。"],["陳委員玉珍：一個禮拜嘛！好，謝謝您。"],["林次長宜敬：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：然後你的那個報告裡頭請告訴我未來你要如何強化金門數位發展的具體策略。"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒有問題，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有問題吧？一個禮拜可以吧！謝謝次長，請回座。","再來請問金管會主委，發展金融科技創新實驗的困境，在你們報告第三頁裡面有提到金融科技創新實驗核准9案、駁回2案、業者自行撤回5案，這是在你們報告所提到的嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：你認為從2018年實施到今天一共核准9案的成績，你滿意嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這有些結構性的問題，因為我們監理沙盒只要處理法律所不許的實驗，因為單一個落地，通常它真的如果出了沙盒以外，假如法律沒有做同步的修正，它也是沒辦法做，所以這是一個……"],["陳委員玉珍：結構性的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：最後還要經過大院的……"],["陳委員玉珍：結構性的問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，最後還要經過大院同意。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委很厲害，又講了很多，你滿意嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想大概任何一個人看到這個數字都跟當時的預期應該是有落差。"],["陳委員玉珍：就不滿意嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：那有結構性的，比如要修法……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們會……"],["陳委員玉珍：比如相關的制度要改變？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們已經有做委外的研究，而且我們內部也在檢討，看可以怎麼樣修改讓它變得更有功能。"],["陳委員玉珍：比較可以推動嘛！因為這是政府的政策嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！沒錯嘛！這是你們的責任吧！誰的責任啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是我們主管的法律。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！讓這個推動得更好是不是金管會的責任？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，是。"],["陳委員玉珍：當然是你的責任嘛！你多久可以把那個計畫做出來呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才跟委員報告，就是我們有請委外……"],["陳委員玉珍：有請人研究？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，做整個通盤，而且我們最近也都跟金融科技業者座談，然後希望能夠找到未來可以改善的方法。"],["陳委員玉珍：多久呢？像你們要修法嘛！歡迎送來財政委員會啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是我們按照我們的……"],["陳委員玉珍：而且送到院會去啊！你有沒有一個時間？要有一個目標導向啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想我們的委外報告很快就會出來，他們送過來，我們就會趕快來檢視。"],["陳委員玉珍：很快是指一個禮拜？剛剛數位部是一個禮拜。"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該是7月。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是這個月會出來，接著後續你們按照這個來修法，應該一個月內也可以做到吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個可能還要經過……因為修法可能按照……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，送進來就好，修法是我們的事情，送進來呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該是還要經過行政院……"],["陳委員玉珍：對、對、對，行政院。"],["彭主任委員金隆：依這個程序，修法可能沒那麼快，所以我們才會想說，我們可不可以用……我們金管會可以來做……"],["陳委員玉珍：麻煩你訂一個目標，好嗎？讓本席瞭解，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，我們可以把那個……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為我們都希望我們在這裡為國家社會做一點事嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：尤其是金融創新方面，我對彭主委的期待真的是很高的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是我在民間聽到，不是關於您的意見，就是對於金管會長久以來缺乏很多創新的想法，採比較限制性的作法讓國內的金融創新沒有辦法進行，也就是說比較遲滯，這會違反我們賴清德總統所揭櫫的，讓臺灣變成世界資產中心這麼高的一個好的目標，這個我們會覺得很遺憾。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我們希望金管會相關的法令要與時俱進，我們這邊也會全力配合來修法、推動。"],["彭主任委員金隆：金融科技的發展是總統的政見之一，也是我們現在執行的重點。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，那我已經看到，我用2013年櫃買中心成立創櫃板來當例子，這個事實上之前在座的各位也聽過，我也有講過，你們的創櫃板原來成立的目的就是提供創新、創意的非公開發行微型企業股權籌資功能，但不具交易功能。你看這十年來的成績，你看看，這算成績嗎？你滿意嗎？103年到112年，登錄家數從61家一直下降到現在的一、二十家；申請家數從剛開始大家滿懷期待的114家，像溜滑梯一樣一直降下來，你們對這個成績滿意嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我想任何人看到這條曲線，應該都是不如預期的，假設我們以臺灣的資本市場……"],["陳委員玉珍：應該是不滿意啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，應該是還有可以改善的空間。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是不滿意嘛，你看從剛剛講到現在都不滿意嘛，但不滿意的責任是在你啊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有很多要努力的空間啦。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，你知道我國有七成以上的企業資本額都是介於100萬到5,000萬，就是有很多中小微型的創新企業，對於創櫃板輔導中小微型創新企業的成績，你應該也是不滿意，未來如何強化？有沒有考慮開放由民間設立創櫃板？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分我會請證期局跟櫃買中心針對這個議題來……"],["陳委員玉珍：來做研究？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：那再很快地把研究報告交給本席，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，我們做出來以後會儘快送給委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：一個月啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們研究的結果……"],["陳委員玉珍：主席，我再講10秒鐘。金融科技的發展涉及您剛剛說的銀行局、證期局、保險局的相關業務，設「處」是不是還不夠？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然不夠，但是我們還是受限於現有的條件，剛才很多委員也希望我們……金管會不怕做事，是怕沒有資源，所以未來如果有機會的話，我們當然希望擴編成更大、更有企圖心的規模。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個我們一定是支持的，只要你們做得好，是不是？學者加入這些也是很好的，但是牽扯到你們內部的官僚體系，不知道大家會不會按照平臺啦，我想……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們會儘量來破除，我們希望能夠真的吸納意見。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝，我對主委有充分的信心，也有很高的期待。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的期許。"],["陳委員玉珍：除了把報告給我們之外，我們希望你們具體落實去做，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員的期許。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。","接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0603437500000001,"end":1.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.27971875,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.5115937500000003,"end":13.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.767218750000001,"end":21.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.137218750000002,"end":22.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.06534375,"end":32.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.274718750000005,"end":48.681593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.98971875,"end":48.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.681593750000005,"end":50.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.70659375,"end":55.650968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.92096875,"end":60.679718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.190343750000004,"end":63.531593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.97034375000001,"end":68.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.64909375,"end":67.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.79659375,"end":73.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.45409375,"end":77.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.04034375,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.68971875000001,"end":80.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.49971875,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.97221875000001,"end":80.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.33909375,"end":80.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.67659375000001,"end":81.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.71846875,"end":84.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.23721875000001,"end":85.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.24971875,"end":86.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.24534375,"end":90.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.70846875000001,"end":92.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.72534375000001,"end":92.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.74221875,"end":92.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.75909375,"end":92.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.79284375,"end":92.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.97846875,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.02909375,"end":94.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.59846875000001,"end":98.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.58096875000001,"end":98.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.59784375000001,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.32346875,"end":99.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.39096875000001,"end":104.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.31409375000001,"end":106.36034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.87909375000001,"end":109.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.81971875,"end":112.68846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.64596875000001,"end":115.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.50659375000001,"end":116.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.85221875,"end":118.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.25284375000001,"end":127.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.23471875000001,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.67721875,"end":131.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.81221875,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.58846875,"end":132.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.19596875000002,"end":134.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.21284375000002,"end":132.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.76096875000002,"end":151.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.34471875,"end":154.82534375},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start":164.276,"end":181.604,"text":"市長好,我想跟你討論金融數位發展、數位建設發展的事宜為了鼓勵電信事業在全國設置行動及固定寬頻網路你們有定有各項補助辦法嗎?在電信事業普及服務基金還有前瞻預算有在做嗎?你知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":183.083,"end":184.284,"text":"你不知道?對,我不知道,抱歉。"},{"start":203.016,"end":203.136,"text":"補助偏鄉"},{"start":222.499,"end":235.189,"text":"防救災的這個也很重要嘛像我們昨天全島大停電這個行動通訊這個基礎建設計畫你看看金門、連江、澎湖又再次的沒有把我們金門列進去111年跟110年都是555那澎湖咧?256萬、635萬"},{"start":237.631,"end":239.091,"text":"報告委員,這件事情我們回去會檢討,那我們會再提供書面報告給議員。多久勒?"},{"start":266.136,"end":271.721,"text":"一個禮拜一個禮拜之內很好很好那你不是找救兵上來怎麼還沒有辦法回答是連下面都不知道嗎"},{"start":272.523,"end":298.285,"text":"因為今天來的我們以為是要講那個數位貨幣的,所以我們今天來的大概不一樣。新的這個次長,到這個各個委員會,我跟您切磋一下。這個高代委上來回答不知道是會上全國新聞的。好,那請問喔,這個從民國104年開始金門就那個4年的中間計畫就提到要把我們金門建設成為E-island。"},{"start":299.666,"end":299.866,"text":"沒有問題吧"},{"start":322.718,"end":322.858,"text":"請回座﹗"},{"start":348.7,"end":369.505,"text":"主委,這個發展金融科技的創新實驗的這個困境你們報告第三頁裡面有提到金融科技創新實驗核准9案、駁回2案業者自行撤回5案這是在你們報告所提到的嘛那你認為說從2018年實施到今天一共核准9案的成績單這個你滿意嗎?"},{"start":371.239,"end":389.966,"text":"其實這有些結構性的問題因為我們堅尼沙盒只要處理法律所不許的實驗因為當一個落地通常他真的如果出了沙盒以外他如果法律沒有做相同步的修正他也是沒辦法做所以這是一個結構性的問題所以你也講"},{"start":393.968,"end":419.201,"text":"主委很厲害,又講了很多,你滿意嗎?我想這個當然任何一個人看到這個數字都跟當時的預期應該是有落差就不滿意嘛,那有結構性的比如說要修法嘛比如說相關的制度要改變嘛對,我們已經有做委外的研究而且我們內部也在檢討可以怎麼樣修改讓它變得更有功能比較可以推動嘛,因為這是政府的政策嘛對嘛沒錯嘛,那這是你們的責任吧,誰的責任啊?"},{"start":420.698,"end":443.255,"text":"這是我們主管的法律讓這個推動得更好是不是金管會的責任那當然那當然你的責任你多久可以把你那個計畫給做出來我們現在正在我剛才跟委員報告就是我們有請委員做那個整個通盤而且我們最近也都跟金融科技業者座談然後希望能夠找到可以未來改善的方法"},{"start":443.916,"end":451.475,"text":"啊,多久呢?像你要修法嘛,歡迎送來財政委員會啊,還有先到院會去啊,你有沒有一個時間啊,要跟目標導向啊?"},{"start":453.571,"end":475.461,"text":"對,我想這個我們的委外報告很快就會出來啦,就是他們過來,那我們就會趕快來檢視很快是指一個禮拜齁?剛剛說數位部一個禮拜應該是7月啦,7月就是這個月齁,這個月之後接著後續你們提出相關的這個按照這個來做修法應該一個月內也可以做到吧?這個可能還要經過,因為修法可能按照不然送進來,送進來就好,修法是我們的事情,送進來勒"},{"start":476.701,"end":476.941,"text":"我們都希望"},{"start":492.381,"end":509.46,"text":"拜託我們在這裡為國家社會做點事嘛尤其是金融創新的方面我對彭主委的期待真的是很高的但是我在民間聽到不是關於您的就是說對金管會長久以來很多創新的想法沒有就是比較限制性的這個做法讓國內的金融創新沒有辦法"},{"start":510.501,"end":514.363,"text":"金融科技的發展也是那個總統政見之一然後也是我們現在執行的重點"},{"start":535.855,"end":554.625,"text":"我用2013年櫃買中心成立創櫃板來當例子這之前事實上在座也聽過我也有講過了就是你們成立了原來創櫃板成立的目的就是提供創新創意的非公開發行的微型企業做這個籌資功能提供股權籌資功能但不具交易功能你看這10年來的成績你看看這算成績嗎你滿意嗎"},{"start":558.687,"end":587.558,"text":"103年到112年從登錄從61到現在一二十家申請加速從剛開始大家滿懷期待一百一十四家到像溜滑梯一直下來你們對這個成績滿意嗎當然我想任何人看到這條曲線應該都不是預期的啦反正我們以台灣的應該是不滿意啦應該是希望還有還有說是不滿意嘛你看從剛剛到現在剛剛講到現在都不滿意嘛但不滿意的責任是在你啊"},{"start":588.078,"end":588.979,"text":"有沒有考慮開放由民間設立創櫃板"},{"start":607.077,"end":609.959,"text":"金融科技發展涉及銀行及證據、保險局相關的,那涉促這個來講是不是還不夠?"},{"start":629.754,"end":653.336,"text":"當然當然不夠但是我們還是受限於現有的條件剛剛很多委員也希望說我們儘管會不怕做事是怕沒有資源所以未來當然若說有機會的話我們當然希望擴編更更大更有信心的規模這個我們一定是支持只要你們做得好是不是然後選擇加入這些是很好的但是現在你們內部官僚體系大家不知道會不會按照平台啦這我們會盡量來破除我們希望真的能夠吸納意見"},{"start":654.717,"end":654.918,"text":"陳玉珍委員"}]}},{"id":"154645","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154645","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8ad1823a13eb723d9a9bb3959728069a07bbd165341284486f3397ef17cf3074c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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各位委員 有請部長請部長是 政委部長好 辛苦了今天的主題是一個非常重要的一個主題"},{"start":27.269,"end":37.337,"text":"這裡面特別提到為了因應為了適應戰場變化以及建立強韌嚇阻戰力國防部參考美國"},{"start":38.732,"end":64.586,"text":"的國防創新單位的作法在今年2月1號當時部長還沒有上任成立國防創新小組負責創新概念評估及引進民間成熟科技協助提升整體防衛能量當然我不清楚美國的國防創新單位當然國防部應該要去了解"},{"start":67.403,"end":84.017,"text":"那我們看這個你的報告裡面國防科技研發體系把它列了三個民間學術機構中科研創新小組這樣的一個"},{"start":85.68,"end":114.114,"text":"然後國防創新小組說主要任務有創新概念發展戰略需求確認民間技術產能調研公開徵集與方案評估導入建設稠厚我們看這個國防部的報告裡面你現在把這個創新國防創新小組放在可能部長還不是那麼清楚"},{"start":115.379,"end":119.013,"text":"放在這個整平思：國防部的"},{"start":120.606,"end":149.293,"text":"很多師裡面的其中一個整評師部長回去再看一下整評師的出入規程裡面有寫整評師負責哪些業務都有寫然後成員包括軍職、文職、聘僱人員然後七分創新作戰發展創產業、條研、評估、軍林科技運用三組執行各項工作"},{"start":151.175,"end":178.855,"text":"最主要就是說這一個這麼重要的這麼重要的為了適應戰場變化建立強韌嚇阻戰力參考美國的這個國防創新單位然後成立這個國防創新小組然後現在是放在整平室這個我是只是請部長回去評估啦"},{"start":180.348,"end":205.301,"text":"請部長回去評估到底他能不能達成這樣的一個創新國防創新小組設置在整平斯能不能達成原來的目的這個請部長回去好好的去評估因為我們國家本來就有國防部"},{"start":207.17,"end":231.963,"text":"本來就設了行政法人國家中商科學研究院就設在那裏提升國防科技能力建立自主國防工業拓展國防及軍用通用技術設了這個國科院國科院他的業務範圍很廣然後呢"},{"start":233.374,"end":260.477,"text":"國科院的董事長就是國防部長然後還包含了這個經濟部的次長國科會的副主委當然的董事所以他這個是一個非常完備的然後一個這麼重要的國防創新小組然後再一個整平師就我這個30年的老公務員"},{"start":262.216,"end":283.274,"text":"然後也寫法的跟部長當然我比你差很多啦這樣的一個我是懷疑啦我是懷疑他能夠達成當初這麼重大的一個任務所以這個部分就請部長回去再跟相關的包括國科院"},{"start":285.676,"end":310.536,"text":"國家中商科學研究院一起去討論包括其他的部會、國科會一起去討論能不能應該怎麼樣去推動好不好部長有瞭解我的意思嗎是瞭解我的意思說在整平思是很難發揮啦部長你回去看一下整平思的這些"},{"start":312.62,"end":317.25,"text":"這些君子人員或是聘僱人員到底他們的專業如何?"},{"start":318.342,"end":341.731,"text":"我只是跟委員報告一點就是說委員看的是一個階層的問題我看的是一個任務導向的問題那不管他設置在哪裡那如果他的這個任務能夠直接受我直接的督管然後完成他相關的任務這是我比較看重的不管他設在什麼樣的一個階層"},{"start":343.172,"end":370.2,"text":"也許你是對的,也許國防部是對的,我沒有做定論,我只是讓你回去評估啦,好不好?是,好,了解,好,謝謝。我沒有去評論,我讓你去評估。好,這個上次,這個部長上任之後,我第一次跟你質詢的時候,就再次的跟我過去質詢過前任的部長,也質詢過這個行政院院長,軍,精良的軍備,"},{"start":371.843,"end":400.096,"text":"要有專精的國軍這是我一直強調要有精良的軍備更要有專精的國軍但是我們一直缺少、缺法你看這個志願役不是在去年服兩年然後7000人離營像這個我們看這個志願役的實領的薪資二等兵三萬六、一等兵三萬八、上等兵三萬九"},{"start":401.363,"end":429.282,"text":"跟我們的勞工的平均薪資4萬6千多差很多但我如果我們從上士官跟軍官去做比較一樣一樣所以這個部分我們的這個能力真的是一直所以我因為主席站起來了這個部長我還是"},{"start":431.226,"end":431.246,"text":"謝謝鄭委員"},{"start":462.677,"end":464.894,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154644","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154644","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f80c10550e800ff155ca0ece664f026f7b7bbd165341284486af1408e11982b4235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:33:53 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我們來問一下台電董事長"},{"start":293.459,"end":304.887,"text":"同志賢估計因為我們要發展AI產業他說未來的用電量他事實上增加未來用電增加上看300億度300億度將將好就是我們河山廠兩個機組"},{"start":312.58,"end":334.4,"text":"所以這個部分你們是不是認為因為你們也要去估這個電力的這個供給你們給部長院長的是3%那麼從此前遠遠的高於這3%好因為我看到我們的那個主席站起來你可以非常非常簡單好不好給你10秒鐘說明我不要耽誤別人"},{"start":335.233,"end":345.879,"text":"第一、核二、核三廠加起來才會有300億度,核三廠不會有300億度。第二、經營部現在做的評估8年的用電成長量高過300億度。所以你們的用電量其實還高於童子賢所預估的量。我們估計的是"},{"start":356.564,"end":360.766,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具、「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":386.443,"end":403.953,"text":"當時有講啊,你們台電送給經濟部了嗎?這個不是台電送的。不是台電。那經濟部次長答一下。我們在這個月,應該是月底之前會提出來。月底之前?可是立法院那時候休會耶。你們是要跟立法院提出,本來不是這樣的。我們會送到委員會這邊。送到委員會,好,OK,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154643","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154643","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8ccffd8a983e05943ca0ece664f026f7b7bbd1653412844864cf22a73b69dd6195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:24:39 - 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對 沒有錯所以我在講的嘛你要修法這些配套是不是通通一起要討論一起來處理"},{"start":424.7,"end":428.041,"text":"現在我們台灣你去問哪一個民眾可以接受蓋核電廠不需要做環評通通不能接受何況你演繹要等同於當作新核電廠來試值我強力的這樣主張絕對要再進行環評才可以再進行評估再來是最後我要請教主委是我們今天討論的因為關於核電現在有一些核融合新型核電小型核電廠的一些討論"},{"start":451.448,"end":473.743,"text":"有不同的意見 這也是很多永和者他們提出來的論述我個人對於這個新型核電因為都還沒有運轉過我還是抱持高度的疑慮但我還是想要釐清清楚今天我們在這裡討論的是針對國民黨提案五個版本核管法第六條修法的討論核管法第六條有沒有去管理到新型的核電廠"},{"start":475.768,"end":478.513,"text":"是沒有的,核管法在處理的就是針對老舊核電廠這一個修法就是要對老舊核電廠做一個後門的放寬"},{"start":486.229,"end":505.147,"text":"所以新式核電的這個支持者我認為我雖然個人高度一律但認為可以討論可是要講清楚的是今天的這個修法完全跟新式的核能沒有關係今天的這個修法第六條的版本通通這個國民黨立委提案版本當中在處理的就只有已經運轉40年的老舊核電廠"},{"start":509.531,"end":511.732,"text":"那這個安全的問題是最重要第二個核廢料沒有處理沒有資格來討論核電廠的演繹任何人只要支持今天提案的版本剛剛我們已經確認了他有可能會涉及到核一、核二廠的演繹喔"},{"start":524.739,"end":528.823,"text":"那就是你們要支持在屏東有更多的核廢料嗎?你們要支持在新北市有更多的核廢料嗎?要討論法案不要在空中談台灣現在這一條法在處理的就是現行的核電廠它有所在地所以我認為要務實來評估謝謝好謝謝兩位"}]}},{"id":"154642","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154642","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f898e1de2ec5bababfa9bb3959728069a07bbd16534128448648780db23e8b7b075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:17:44 - 11:32:44","影片長度":"00:15:00","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:17:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:32:44+08:00","duration":900,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":522,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時17分）謝謝主席，請顧部長及軍醫局蔡局長。"],["主席：請部長及軍醫局蔡局長。"],["顧部長立雄：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好、局長好。其實在國防部的主管下，除了有很多的軍職人員以外，還有很多文職跟約聘僱人員，不管他的職務或身分，基於希望能有一個起碼的勞動權益保障的立場，坦白說，大家期待只要有勞動事實就可以實際實領，這也被認為是最低的底線，部長同不同意？"],["顧部長立雄：是，委員的指教應該是。"],["洪委員申翰：同意對吧！其實這段時間我一直收到陳情，在軍醫局底下其實有很多醫療人員，他可能不只是醫生或護理師，比方像是分析血液、尿液的醫檢師，負責Ｘ光的放射師，或者是藥師，他們也會有夜間輪班的需求，他們也要值夜班，所以他們的勞動事實非常明確。如果你是一個醫檢師，而你是在教育部下面的教學醫院或者是在退輔會下的榮醫，或者是在衛福部下的部立醫院上班的話，我們要恭喜，因為你可以拿到足額的報酬。但如果這些醫檢師是在軍醫院上班，很抱歉，他的報酬是無法足額領取的。部長，你看一下數字，如果是一個醫檢師值大夜班一個月25天，臺大的基數比較好，有1萬7,000元，部立醫院跟榮總是1萬2,000元，軍醫院也是1萬2,000元，但很慘的事情是軍醫院的醫檢師值大夜班，只要是夜班，夜班的費用就沒有辦法實領，他會被打折，甚至打到85折！賴清德總統說軍公教要加薪3%，但這個我們一吃就吃人家15%！而這種陋習我跟部長報告，其實已經超過10年了，為什麼會出現這個狀況？很簡單，因為我們軍醫下面醫管單位自己另設了一個夜班費請領方式，是用三節獎金來請領，不像剛才說的其他主管機關下面的醫院都可以按月來領取，依照績效獎金來領取。我們自己訂了一個用三節獎金領取，所以一年就3次、領3次，但問題是三節獎金有一個上限，所以只要值夜班的狀況超過這個上限，超過的部分就算你沒發生過！所以一個醫檢師常常一個月算下來幾乎少了2,000塊以上，這就是長年的狀況。我要問部長，你聽到這個狀況，我相信你也是第一次聽到，但這個狀況你覺得有沒有要改進的空間或你的立場如何？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，是不是它有兩種，一個是夜班費、另外一個是醫勤的獎助金？"],["洪委員申翰：對，但我現在講的都是夜班費。"],["顧部長立雄：如果是夜班費的話，應該是他如果實際值班我們就足額發給，如果依照這樣子來發給的話，我想只要沒有超過行政院的公立醫療機構人員發給要點的話，這個部分應該是可以足額發給的。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你講到一個重點，國防部下軍醫局相對其他的部會，我們現在是適用醫勤獎金的方式來發給，所以是用三節獎金來發放，所以就遇到三節獎金上限的問題，我們一直跟國防部要求，這是一個不合理的狀況，因為有很多的醫檢師公會都來陳情，明明該給他們的卻都沒有給他們，而且這不是現在短期喔，這已經搞10年了，但對不起，軍醫局不理就是不理、不理就是不理！所以我今天不得不在這個地方提出，部長在這邊、局長在這邊，我們要不要改變這個狀況？我覺得這是最基本的吧？"],["蔡局長建松：跟委員報告一下，因為我們這個醫勤獎金發放是經過行政院核定的，所以我們的醫勤獎金有一個上限，如果整個要修的話，就變成所有軍醫的軍醫獎金全部都要再修。這個陳情其實我們不是不理，但是最近會有……"],["洪委員申翰：不要推給行政院。"],["蔡局長建松：不是，跟委員報告，最近會有這個問題是因為有一些軍醫院的業績、績效很好，所以才會到上限，如果沒有到上限，他其實都可以實領到。但是因為會超過上限，他的總額有個上限，所以大家才會覺得他的夜班費好像被排擠到了，其實……"],["洪委員申翰：局長，不是好像，就是啊！他夜班的勞動事實就是消失了，不是好像啊。"],["蔡局長建松：我們會按照委員的指導，以後我們福利金的計算方式會把夜班費優先計算，夜班費算完以後再來算其他……"],["洪委員申翰：局長很簡單嘛，我們就比照其他的醫院都是按月發放，不一定要把醫勤獎金搞到三節獎金才能發放嘛，每個月做多少很清楚，都可以看到眼前我就可以拿多少，沒有人要去多要，只是給他們應得的，每個月就按照……別人都可以做到，為什麼軍醫院做不到呢？"],["蔡局長建松：報告委員，其實我們每個月計算、也是每個月在計算，並沒有說……"],["洪委員申翰：但是三節才能領一次，所以人家是算下來發現，這跟我每個月該領的不一樣、有出入，甚至可能少了2,000塊、每個月少2,000塊！"],["蔡局長建松：另外跟委員報告，其實我們非醫護人員、聘僱人員的總薪資都比其他醫院還高。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，局長，你這個態度是不對的嘛！"],["蔡局長建松：沒有，不是這個意思！"],["洪委員申翰：不是因為他今天待遇比別人高，待遇有沒有真的比別人高，這是另外一回事，你明明說要給人家的績效獎金、夜班費，講好的你就是沒有給嘛！"],["蔡局長建松：我們會按照……"],["洪委員申翰：這跟其他比別人高有什麼關係？"],["蔡局長建松：報告委員，我們會按照您的指導，以後我們的醫勤獎金當中，夜班費都會單獨優先計算。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，第一個不是優先計算，我就問你，能不能夠承諾一定足額發放、按月足額發放？就像在其他部會的醫檢師、X光檢驗師、放射師可以受到一樣的待遇。"],["蔡局長建松：可以，這我們做得到。"],["洪委員申翰：可以嗎？這是可以承諾的事情？"],["蔡局長建松：是。"],["洪委員申翰：那多少時間可以把它改過來？兩個月？"],["蔡局長建松：我們現在已經在做了。"],["洪委員申翰：兩個月可不可以把它改過來？"],["蔡局長建松：應該是可以。"],["洪委員申翰：兩個月之後，我們這些非醫護人員的夜班費就可以按月足額拿到，沒有問題？"],["蔡局長建松：按月這個部分我們還要經由行政院，因為整個如果要修要一段時間。"],["洪委員申翰：你不要推給行政院，你們把方案拿出來，我們可以來跟行政院講，要他儘快核定，行政院會同意你們這個把醫護人員夜班費吃掉的方法嗎？"],["蔡局長建松：報告委員，我們會按照委員的指導，我們會每個月單獨來計算，也會跟行政院來做溝通。"],["洪委員申翰：可不可以每個月就直接發放？就像其他主管單位的醫院一樣，就比照嘛，這個這麼簡單的事情！"],["蔡局長建松：報告委員，我們會跟行政院做這個溝通、希望每個月來發放，但是因為它牽涉到整體要修，我們還要一段時間。"],["洪委員申翰：那這樣好不好，一個月後給我方案、兩個月承諾把它改好，可以嗎？"],["蔡局長建松：我們儘快，是。"],["洪委員申翰：一個月給我方案、兩個月把它改好，可以嗎？"],["蔡局長建松：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：至少一定要足額發放、可以足額領取，這最基本的吧？"],["蔡局長建松：是。"],["洪委員申翰：這不是優先，是足額領取喔！我不管你優先不優先，就是足額、不可以少一塊錢。"],["蔡局長建松：是，我們按照委員的指導來做。"],["洪委員申翰：好。","接下來，我要請數發部闕次長。次長，我不知道你有沒有看到，上週有一位美國的亞太議題專家在外交家雜誌上面發表了一篇專文，這篇專文其實談到了臺灣海纜的問題，這篇文章談了很多內容，他最後有一個很重要的建議，這個建議就是，他認為臺灣應該要將電纜認定為關鍵基礎設施。為什麼今天還是要跟闕次長討論這事情？我跟你說，我已經像蒐集七龍珠一樣，我已經問過陳建仁院長、問過國土辦、問過國安局、問過NCC、問過海巡署、也問過中華電信，大家都說他們同意、也覺得應該要把臺馬的海纜列為CI，但現在一直態度曖昧的是數發部。次長，你覺得呢？不管是國外、國內，大家都認為臺馬海纜的重要性，尤其過去被破壞的程度，尤其是現在像在聯合利劍行動裡面，他們就是針對我們的離島攻擊，應該要列為CI，次長？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，一個基礎建設我們能不能把它列為CI有幾個要件，那這個……"],["洪委員申翰：是。次長，我時間不夠，我跟你說，在之前所有的質詢裡面我們都把它的要件，包括它的定義全部都拿出來了，所以這些所有其他部會的人都同意它應該是CI。"],["闕次長河鳴：對，但是其他部會可能沒有我們清楚，比如說臺馬海纜跟臺金海纜，對我來說，臺馬海纜的微波備援是充足的，但是其他的海纜可能微波備援不是充足，所以……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我覺得不一定是充足的。之前有講過，你們是用了微波，但是這個微波如果在緊急的時候或者是遇到被封鎖的時候，我們可能要把頻寬優先交給軍方來使用，到時候還是不是充足的？這是打上一個大大的問號！包括微波備援的頻寬跟我們一般海纜的頻寬就是有很大的差別，包括你的養護、管理上面的作業，都跟一般列為CI的是不一樣的。"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，微波的部分，軍方的微波跟我們的微波是分開的，我沒辦法對軍方的微波發表任何意見。但是如果您到微波站去看，就會發現我們現在中華電信的微波跟軍方是分開的，但是海纜裡面的確有部分的海纜是提供軍方使用。"],["洪委員申翰：所以次長，現在意思是數發部還是不願列為CI？"],["闕次長河鳴：要不要列為CI每年會依程序準時來辦理。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我第一次質詢陳建仁院長是在去年3月，已經經過17個月了，你們的評估是怎樣？就我知道，國土辦也希望列入、NCC也希望列入、行政院也希望列入、大家都希望列入、國安局也覺得該列入，只有你們覺得……"],["闕次長河鳴：我們沒有覺得不應該列入，但我們是認為你要按照規定來辦理……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，如果你沒有覺得……"],["闕次長河鳴：你要列為CI是它沒有任何備援的時候，最後一道防線才會被列為CI……"],["洪委員申翰：不是，不只是這樣子吧？列為CI的定義不是只有它完全沒有備援吧？我們要不要來看一下CI的定義？CI的定義不是完全沒有備援才能夠被列入CI……"],["闕次長河鳴：按照你這邊寫的，它有分數跟重要性嘛？"],["洪委員申翰：是！"],["闕次長河鳴：我們就是根據它的……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我做一個建議，我沒有要求所有的國內海纜都要列入，但臺馬海纜或跟離島之間的海纜，我覺得有沒有一些方式可以把它的特殊性給標示出來？"],["闕次長河鳴：這個我們在通盤檢討的時候，我們也會納入考慮，但是我沒辦法在這邊承諾你特定的海纜在下次是不是會列為CI，因為就像你剛剛列的，它每一條有它的分數跟評估的方式，根據分數跟評估方式……"],["洪委員申翰：是，但次長我要跟你說，這件事情不是我第一次講，我們已經提了17個月了。"],["闕次長河鳴：我瞭解……"],["洪委員申翰：如果我們評估一條海纜要搞17個月還搞不定，態度還游移不定，我會對於關鍵基礎設施CI、我們對於政府國安的態度，我們有很大的存疑啊！"],["闕次長河鳴：我們評估是每年來評估，所以並沒有游移……"],["洪委員申翰：那今年要評估到什麼時候？"],["闕次長河鳴：會按照國土辦的程序來辦。"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["洪委員申翰：那會評估到什麼時候？"],["闕次長河鳴：按照國土辦的……"],["洪委員申翰：主席再給我1分鐘，會到什麼時候？"],["闕次長河鳴：我現在不知道，要回去查。"],["洪委員申翰：所以說問國土辦？"],["闕次長河鳴：評估CI每年……"],["洪委員申翰：為什麼你可以用你現在不知道這個態度？這不是你們主管的嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：那我請韌性司來回答評估……"],["洪委員申翰：這不是你們主管的嗎？"],["主席：因為時間的關係，你們討論完以後，再提供給委員相相關的資訊。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，你這個態度我沒辦法接受！"],["闕次長河鳴：因為……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，你這個態度我沒辦法接受！要嘛你給我一個明確的時間。"],["闕次長河鳴：我跟你說，因為CI每兩年才評估一次，你17個月沒有得到答案是正常的嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：次長，你確定要用這個回答嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：我手上的資料就是這樣嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：所以當這17個月裡面發生了聯合利劍行動，當他們在圍馬祖、圍我們離島的時候，你跟他說，對不起，我就是兩年評估一次嘛！你突然來一個演習……"],["闕次長河鳴：當你出現聯合利劍或馬祖斷纜，我們馬上搬衛星過去，我們馬上提升微波，我們所有的事情都是即時在做。"],["洪委員申翰：在做，但是大家還是關心CI啊！"],["闕次長河鳴：不管它是不是關鍵基礎設施，只要出現危機，我們馬上就會處理。"],["主席：好，謝謝，因為時間的關係……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，這態度大家沒辦法接受啊！"],["闕次長河鳴：馬上處理如果無法接受的話……"],["主席：次長，委員還在講嘛！你們無法接受的話，你要有一個說法，然後再看質詢怎麼樣，你不能自己就轉回去了。"],["闕次長河鳴：我們的說法就是我們都馬上處理了。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請鄭天財委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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我想請問其實我們在國防部的主管下除了有很多的軍職人員以外那還有很多的文職跟約聘僱的人員"},{"start":27.427,"end":45.834,"text":"所以,其實不管他的職務或身份,那我們基於希望有一個起碼的勞動權益保障的立場。那,可能大家是期待說,你只要有勞動事實,就可以實際實領。那這也是被認為其實是最低的底線。部長同不同意?"},{"start":54.641,"end":71.427,"text":"這段時間我一直收到陳情我們軍醫局底下其實有很多的醫療人員那他可能不是只是醫生或護士護理師比方說像是他們分析血液尿液的這個醫檢師也負責X光的放射師或者是藥師"},{"start":72.907,"end":96.033,"text":"那他們也會有夜班、夜間輪班的需求他們也要值夜班所以他們的勞動的事實非常非常的明確但如果你是一個醫檢師如果你是在教育部下面的教學醫院或者是在退輔會下的容醫或者是如果你在衛福部下的部立醫院上班的話我們要恭喜他們可以拿到足額的報酬"},{"start":97.728,"end":116.88,"text":"但如果這些醫檢師他如果在軍醫院上班很抱歉他的報酬是無法足而領取的我們來看一下數字部長你看一下數字如果今天是一個醫檢師大夜班他值大夜一個月25天台大的基數是比較好有1萬7部立跟榮總是1萬2軍醫院也是1萬2但"},{"start":122.93,"end":146.525,"text":"很慘的事情是部里軍醫院的醫檢師直大業只要是夜班夜班的這個費用就沒有辦法施理他會被打折甚至打到85折賴清德總統說軍工就要加薪3%但這個我們一吃就吃人家15%而這種陋習我跟部長報告其實已經超過10年了那為什麼會出現這個狀況很簡單"},{"start":149.755,"end":169.523,"text":"因為我們軍醫下面的醫管單位他的夜班費的請領的方式自己吝嗇了一個請領的方式是要所用三節獎金來請領不像剛剛說的其他主管機關下面的醫院他們都是可以按月來領取依照績效獎金來領取我們自己"},{"start":171.278,"end":199.011,"text":"訂了一個用三節獎金領取所以一年就領三次但問題是三節獎金對不起有一個上限所以只要你的夜班職業班的狀況超過這個上限超過的部分就算你沒發生過就算你沒發生過所以一個醫檢師常常一個月算下來幾乎少了兩千塊以上這就是長年的狀況我要問部長部長你覺得你聽到這個狀況我相信你也是第一次聽到"},{"start":200.168,"end":213.344,"text":"但這個狀況你覺得有沒有要改進的空間或你的立場如何?官委員報告是不是他有兩種一個是夜班費跟另外一個是疫情的獎助金"},{"start":214.825,"end":230.431,"text":"對那我現在講的都是夜班費如果是夜班費的話那麼夜班費應該是他有實際的值班那就我們就足額的發給吧那如果依照這樣子來來發給的話那我想"},{"start":232.472,"end":251.469,"text":"只要沒有超過行政院的公立醫療機構人員獎那個發給要點的話應該是可以足夠發給的在這個部分部長你講的你講到一個重點啦其實是因為我們相比於在國防部下軍醫局相對其他的部會我們現在是用依請獎金的方式來發給"},{"start":252.93,"end":278.19,"text":"所以是用三節獎金來發放所以就會遇到三節獎金上限的問題那我們一直跟國防部來要求這是一個不合理的狀況因為有很多的醫檢師他們的工會都來陳情明明他們該給他們卻都沒有給他們而且這不是限短期喔這已經搞了十年了喔但對不起軍醫局不理就是不理不理就是不理所以我今天不得不我要在這個地方"},{"start":279.366,"end":308.545,"text":"部長在這邊局長在這邊我們要不要改變這個狀況我覺得這是最基本的吧跟委員報告一下因為我們的這個疫情獎金的發放是經過行政院核定的所以如果我們的疫情獎金有一個上限如果整個要修的話就變成整個所有軍醫的軍醫獎金全部都要再修那我們這個陳情其實我們不是不理但是因為會有局長不要推給行政院啊"},{"start":309.185,"end":332.09,"text":"不是不是,跟委員報告,最近會有這個問題是因為有一些軍醫院因為它的業績績效很好,所以才會到上限,如果沒有到上限,它其實都可以實領到,但是因為會超過上限,所以它的總額因為有一個上限,所以才會大家覺得說好像是它的夜班費被排擠到了,其實...局長不是好像啊,就是啊"},{"start":333.01,"end":360.797,"text":"他夜班的勞動事實就是消失了啊不是好像啊我們會按照委員的指導我們會把以後的我們的計算方式就是福利金的計算方式會把夜班會優先計算夜班會算完以後再來算其他的福利金局長很簡單嘛我們就比照其他的醫院他們都是按月的發放不是一定要搞到疫情獎金的三節獎金才能發放嘛每個月做多少很清楚都可以看在眼前我就可以拿多少"},{"start":361.465,"end":383.602,"text":"沒有人要去多要,只是給他們應得的,每個月就按方法,反正別人都可以做到,為什麼其實軍院做不到呢?其實我們每個月計算,也是每個月在計算。但是你是三節才人家領一次嘛,所以人家是算下來以後發現,欸這跟我每個月該領的不一樣嘛,有出入嘛,甚至可能少了兩千塊,每個月少了兩千塊啊。"},{"start":384.342,"end":407.39,"text":"另外跟委員報告其實我們的會醫護人員的聘僱人員的總薪資啊都比其他醫院還高都比其他醫院高你這態度是不對的嘛沒有不是這個意思不是說我今天待遇比別人高我待遇有沒有真的比別人高這是另外一回事你明明說要給人家的績效獎金夜班費講好的你就是沒有給嘛"},{"start":408.878,"end":434.35,"text":"這跟你什麼其他比別人高什麼關係?報告委員我們會按照您的指導業班會以後我們的疫情獎金業班會都會單獨優先計算不是我說第一個不是優先計算我就問你說能不能夠承諾一定足額發放按月足額發放就像他們在其他部會的醫檢師、X光檢驗師、放射師他們可以受到的待遇一樣嗎?可以"},{"start":434.97,"end":462.102,"text":"可以嗎?這是可以承諾的事情?是是是好那多少時間可以把它改過來?兩個月?我們現在已經在做了兩個月可不可以把它改過來?應該是可以兩個月之後我們這些非醫護人員的夜班費就可以按月足額拿到,沒有問題按月這個我們還要經由行政院,因為整個要修要一段時間你不要推給行政院,你們把方案拿出來"},{"start":463.042,"end":484.382,"text":"行政院會盡快,我們可以來跟行政院來講,要盡快合定,行政院會同意你們這個把醫護人員的夜班費給吃掉的方法嗎?報告委員,我們會按照委員的指導,我們會每個月單獨來計算,阿也會跟行政院來做,可不可以每個月直接每個月就發放,就像其他,就像其他的主管單位的醫院一樣嗎?"},{"start":485.403,"end":502.371,"text":"報告委員我們因為我們會跟行政院做這個溝通希望每個月來發放但是因為他整體牽涉到整個要修我們還要一段時間那這樣好不好一個月後給我方案兩個月承諾把它改好可以嗎"},{"start":503.601,"end":526.758,"text":"我們盡快一個月給我方案兩個月把它改好是是可以嗎可以至少一定要要求要足額發放可以足額領取這最基本的吧是這不是優先喔是足額領取喔我不管你優先不優先喔就是足額不可以少一塊錢是我們按照委員的指導來做好那接下來我要請數發部卓次長"},{"start":535.726,"end":554.502,"text":"我不知道你們有沒有看到上週其實有一位美國亞太議題的專家他在外交家的雜誌上面有發表了一篇專文這篇專文其實又談到了台灣海嵐的問題那這篇文章他談了很多內容他最後有一個很重要的建議這個建議就是他認為台灣應該要將電纜認定為關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":559.091,"end":588.242,"text":"為什麼今天還是要跟圈長來討論這事情我跟你說我已經像收集七龍珠一樣我已經問過陳建仁院長問過國土辦問過國安局問過NCC 問過海巡署也問過中華電信大家都說他們同意也覺得應該要把臺馬的海瀾列為CI但現在一直態度曖昧的是數發部次長你覺得呢"},{"start":589.582,"end":599.832,"text":"不管是國外不管是國內大家都認為臺馬海岸的重要性尤其過去被破壞的程度尤其是現在大家看到像在聯合力艦行動裡面他們就是針對我們的離島的攻擊應該要列為C.I.這樣"},{"start":608.15,"end":627.273,"text":"跟委員報告就是說一個基礎建設能不能列為關鍵就是我們能不能把它列為CI那有幾個要件是那這個事實上我時間不夠我跟你說在之前所有的質詢裡面我們都把他的這個要件包括他的定義全部都拿出來了所以這些所有其他部會的人都同意他應該是CI"},{"start":628.554,"end":654.246,"text":"對,但是其他部會可能沒有我們清楚比如說臺馬海嵐跟台京海嵐對我來說臺馬海嵐它的微波備援是充足的但是其他的海嵐可能微波備援不是充足的市長,我覺得不一定是充足的之前有講過你們是用了微波但是這個微波如果在緊急的時候或者是遇到被封鎖的時候我們可能要把頻寬優先交給"},{"start":657.978,"end":676.391,"text":"﹗"},{"start":676.491,"end":704.222,"text":"跟委員報告微波的部分呢軍方的微波跟我們的微波是分開的那我沒辦法對軍方的微波發表任何意見但是如果您到微波站去看就會發現在我們現在中華電線的微波並跟軍方是分開的但是海纜的確裡面有部分的部分的海纜是提供軍方使用的所以次長現在意思是數發部還是不願意列為CI要不要列為CI每年會"},{"start":705.882,"end":724.197,"text":"每年會依程序準時在辦理我第一次質詢陳建仁院長是在去年3月已經經過17個月了你們的評估是怎樣就我知道國土辦也希望列入NCC也希望列入行政院也希望列入大家都希望列入國安局也覺得該列入"},{"start":725.259,"end":741.335,"text":"只有你們覺得我們沒有覺得不應該列入但是我們是認為你要按照規定的辦法市長就是你要列為CI是他沒有任何備援的時候不是不只是這樣子吧列為CI的定義不是只有他完全沒有備援吧我們要不要來看一下CI的定義"},{"start":742.697,"end":756.058,"text":"實驗案的定義不是沒有被人才能夠被列入實驗案按照你這邊寫的它有分數跟重要性是那我們就是根據它的這樣我建議我做一個建議我自己覺得我沒有要求所有的國內海岸都要列入但"},{"start":757.798,"end":783.07,"text":"臺馬海嵐或跟離島之間的海嵐我覺得有沒有一些方式可以把他的特殊性給標示出來我們在空盤檢討中我們也會納入考慮但是我沒辦法在這邊承諾你特定的海嵐是不是在下次會列為C因為就像你剛剛列的他每一條他有他的分數跟評估的方式那根據分數跟評估方式市長那我要跟你說這件事情不是我第一次講我們已經提了17個月了"},{"start":783.85,"end":784.55,"text":"我現在不知道要回去查"},{"start":813.288,"end":839.968,"text":"那我...是不是問國土辦?沒有,評估西安美...為什麼你可以用說你現在不知道這個態度?這不是你們主管的嗎?那我請那個任性室來回答評估西安的...這不是你們主管的嗎?你們討論完以後再提供給委員相...相關的資訊吧...次長我這個態度我沒有辦法接受啊因為...因為...次長我覺得這個態度我沒有辦法接受你要不然你給我一個明確的時間我跟你說因為西安美兩年才評估一次你17個月沒有得到答案是正常的嗎?次長"},{"start":843.271,"end":849.737,"text":"你確定要這個回答嗎?我手上的資料就是這樣嘛所以當這17個月裡面發生了聯合力艦行動當他們在維馬組"},{"start":854.949,"end":855.089,"text":"市長!市長!"},{"start":887.051,"end":887.212,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154641","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154641","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8bd1576c2c51470012652beeb573fd6de7bbd165341284486f2f941b50267ca495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:26:12 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11:32:13","影片長度":"00:06:01","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會、財政部率所屬相關單位列席就「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:26:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:32:13+08:00","duration":361,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":36,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-36"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":656,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時26分）請法務部跟工程會。"],["主席：有請法務部、工程會。"],["葉委員元之：部長好、處長好。我有一個問題請教，因為我非常好奇。上一次在經濟委員會時，我詢問農業部長有關於超思跟亮采的問題，得知他們是透過畜產會去買這批雞蛋。我發現超思跟亮采有一個非常奇怪的狀況，也就是畜產會是跟亮采簽約，可是卻叫畜產會付錢給超思。當時我問農業部，為什麼會出現這個狀況？有沒有去督導畜產會？而農業部部長給我的答案是，他不能去瞭解。他說畜產會到底要怎麼做、超思跟亮采是私法人之間關係，就是私人跟私人關係，政府不能去查，所以他完全沒有責任，就直接移送檢調。","今天看到這個題目我也非常好奇，實際上這也是公私之間的關係，是政府要進這批雞蛋，只是透過畜產會去處理，畜產會主要的錢也都來自政府。但畜產會在採購時可以直接繞過採購法，做出這麼奇怪的採購行為，甚至跟A公司簽約，卻付錢給B公司，造成一些弊端後，政府卻說跟它完全無關，這是檢調的問題，如果沒有查到弊案的話，或是沒有司法問題的話，就跟政府無關。我問一下部長，像這樣的模式，在政府的採購裡很常見嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我是次長，不是部長。委員您提的是超思那個個案嗎？"],["葉委員元之：對、對。"],["黃次長謀信：這個個案臺北地檢署已經分幾個案子在偵辦……"],["葉委員元之：我是問模式，因為我覺得這個模式很奇怪。"],["黃次長謀信：問模式的話，因為法務部並不是相關主管機關……"],["葉委員元之：我們今天不是要討論公私之間的採購關係嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，但採購的主管機關不是法務部。"],["葉委員元之：是哪一個機關？工程會嗎？OK。"],["徐處長肇晞：跟委員報告，農業部採購雞蛋這個案子，依照採購法第七條規定，雞蛋是屬於生鮮農漁產品，不是採購法的適用範圍……"],["葉委員元之：我知道。"],["徐處長肇晞：所以並不適用……"],["葉委員元之：這個我知道，後來像冷鏈、運費等並沒有透過採購法，農業部的說法是不符合採購法的就不付錢。實際上如果沒有被抓到的話，它就是違反採購法！我現在要問的是，政府單位裡有這樣的採購行為，身為採購主管機關，你不覺得很奇怪嗎？這合理嗎？"],["徐處長肇晞：這部分我不太理解委員的意思……"],["葉委員元之：我剛已經把案情都敘述一遍，只是我現在不問個案。我是說，有一個政府機構補助另外一個法人，並由那個法人來進行政府的採購事項，結果非常寬鬆，但這個法人在採購過程中出現問題了，而那個部會可以講說跟我沒有關係，那就是私人跟私人之間的關係，完全沒有督導的責任。這難道不是規避採購法的行為嗎？"],["徐處長肇晞：跟委員報告，依據採購法第四條，政府機關補助法人金額達到50%以上，或是達到公告金額以上，這個法人辦理採購是必須依據採購法的。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！可是問題是，我那時候問農業部就超思跟亮采的關係，他說他沒辦法督導啊！他說就送給檢調啊！行政機關在這個過程當中完全沒責任嗎？"],["徐處長肇晞：報告委員，超思這個是屬於得標廠商跟協力廠商的事情，這個並沒有在採購法的規範範圍內，除非它有違反轉包……"],["葉委員元之：你是處長對不對？"],["徐處長肇晞：是。"],["葉委員元之：處長，你現在一直在講法條，對不對？我們現在就是講這件事情的不合理之處。如果說這個法條衍生出這樣的不合理之處，我們是不是就要討論這個法條訂定得是否過於寬鬆？或者是有沒有漏網之魚，對不對？所以我把問題講出來，我相信我這樣子講，大家都會覺得很奇怪，對不對？農業部委託畜產會，花了大錢給畜產會，結果畜產會在採購過程當中，明明是跟A廠商簽約，但是付錢給B廠商。然後又說生鮮產品是不受採購法的限制，另外它採購、冷鏈跟運輸又違反採購法，然後我們相關部會說，這件事情跟它無關。","這事情聽起來，先不要管什麼法條，你作為一個一般人，你會不會覺得很奇怪？會不會？我講的都是事實，不是我掰出來的，在我們現在政府機關還存在這樣的採購行為，會不會很奇怪？你不敢回答，就是很奇怪啦！因為如果不奇怪的話，你就會說不奇怪了。","如果出現這樣的行為，是不是我們現在法律訂定上面可能有一些漏洞，才會造成這樣的行為？有沒有？好，時間到了。我也不為難你，可能你也沒有準備，是不是可以針對我剛剛那個問題，事後補一份報告給我，好不好？"],["徐處長肇晞：委員的問題是指超思跟……"],["葉委員元之：就是我剛才那個模式，就是超思那個模式，但是行政機關卻沒有任何責任，然後它都說它依法、它都合法的，這樣子有沒有很奇怪？你補一個答案給我，好不好？"],["徐處長肇晞：是。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。謝謝次長、謝謝處長。"],["主席：所有委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束，委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員翁曉玲、沈發惠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-36","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳玉珍","葉元之","翁曉玲","沈發惠","傅崐萁","傅崐萁"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會、財政部率所屬相關單位\n列席就「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.012218750000002,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.977218750000002,"end":21.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.47034375,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.790968750000005,"end":61.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.21534375,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.42534375000001,"end":140.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.74596875,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.77096875000001,"end":125.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.30534375000002,"end":136.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.75159375,"end":145.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.48971875,"end":142.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.37971875,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.38784375,"end":147.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.44221875000002,"end":150.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.91034375,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.07909375,"end":151.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.66534375,"end":154.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.94346875000002,"end":163.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.16596875000002,"end":172.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.47659375,"end":176.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.83034375,"end":178.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.97346875000002,"end":180.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.60596875000002,"end":183.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.67721875,"end":185.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.99346875,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.86659375000002,"end":213.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.76971875,"end":219.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.91221875000002,"end":222.612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這個部分我不太理解不是 我的意思我剛已經把那個案情都已經敘述一遍但我現在不問個案我是說現在能不能政府有一個機構這個機構呢補助另外一個法人然後由那個法人來進行政府要採購的事項結果非常的寬鬆當這個法人採購的過程當中出現問題然後農業部然後那個部會可以講說這跟我沒有關係那個就是私人跟私人之間的關係"},{"start":213.877,"end":241.115,"text":"然後他完全沒有督導的責任那這難道不是一個規避採購法的行為嗎我跟委員報告依據採購法第4條政府機關補助法人金額達到50%以上或是達到公告金額以上的話那這個法人辦理採購是必須依據採購法的對啊可是問題是那時候農業部就說我那時候問他說那超市跟量採關係他說他沒辦法督導啊他說就送給減掉啊那行政機關在這個過程當中完全沒責任嗎"},{"start":243.076,"end":268.066,"text":"報告委員在超私跟這個是屬於得標廠商跟協力廠商的事情這個並沒有在採購法的規範範圍內除非他有違反轉保那個處長對不對是處長齁你現在一直在講法條嘛對不對我們現在就是講說這件事情的不合理之處嘛那如果說這個法條衍生出這樣的不合理之處我們是不是就要討論這個法條定定的是否過於寬鬆或是有沒有漏網之魚嘛"},{"start":269.292,"end":274.275,"text":"所以我把問題講出來我相信我這樣子講大家都會覺得很奇怪農業部委託續產會花大錢給續產會結果續產會"},{"start":279.343,"end":279.363,"text":"會不會?"},{"start":301.94,"end":321.832,"text":"會不會我講的都是事實喔不是我掰出來的喔你會不會覺得在我們現在政府機關還存在的這樣的採購行為會不會很奇怪你不敢回答就是很奇怪啦因為如果不奇怪你就會說不奇怪了那如果出現這樣的行為是不是我們現在法律訂定上面可能有一些漏洞才會造成這樣的行為有沒有好時間到了"},{"start":329.557,"end":355.338,"text":"那...那不然我也不為難你啦可能你也沒有...你也沒有準備啦是不是可以針對我剛剛那個問題就是事後補一份報告給我好不好委員的問題是指超市跟...就是我剛剛那個模式就是超市那個模式然後但是...但是行政機關卻沒有任何的責任然後他都說他依法他都合法的這樣子有沒有很奇怪你給我...你...你補個答案給我啦好不好是好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":357.617,"end":357.637,"text":"謝謝次長、謝謝處長"}]}},{"id":"154640","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154640","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f83544bf615f10ad8aa39103cf15d5982f7bbd165341284486e0df1a73c0e558f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"11:19:40 - 11:32:04","影片長度":"00:12:24","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:19:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:32:04+08:00","duration":744,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":630,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（11時19分）請金管會主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，我想針對臺南市老年人口比例跟主委做一個探討。不好意思，因為我剛剛跟陳玉珍委員換，所以我從院區跑過來。我們臺南有185萬9,000的人口數，其實我們老人化的程度相當的高，112年65歲的老人比有18.77%，可是相對的，我們其實是超過了，而且高於全國的平均18.71%，到今年5月更高達19.12%。今天我們討論虛擬貨幣的交易跟金融科技的議題，科技帶來了很多的便利，可是相對的在我的選區，這些老年人不一定是非常便利的。我們的實體銀行過多，可是都集中在都會區，鄉村成為金融的真空區。主委，每10萬人平均會有17家銀行分行在服務，可是相對的，在本席的選區裡頭就有很大的一個區域落差。以我的選區為例，有20家分行在新營，但北門、將軍、後壁、東山、下營、柳營是完全沒有銀行。我在這裡要請問主委，如何提高偏鄉的金融覆蓋率以提供實質的金融服務，有沒有比較好的方法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實在過去我們對於銀行分行的遷移、裁撤或是增設，我們都是非常關注，特別是過去在整併的時候，很多銀行都是為了這個分行，所以我們對一些偏鄉服務的考慮並不會完全依據他們商業的考慮，實際上有做這樣的考慮，我可以請銀行局長……"],["賴委員惠員：可是分行就沒有啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員惠員：那怎麼辦呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這一部分，我想請銀行局局長做個簡短的回復，有關我們現在的政策。"],["賴委員惠員：是，請局長。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，我們確實對於偏鄉這邊，在銀行增設實體分支機構的時候其實是會給予一些便利性，比如說他任何時間都可以提出申請，所以我們也是希望在偏鄉這邊可以多設一些分支機構，不過有一個部分可能要跟委員解釋的就是說，因為我們目前定義的偏鄉還有包括它也沒有郵匯局，也沒有信用合作社。"],["賴委員惠員：好，局長，你講到了我們的郵局、我們的農會系統，事實上，我們在講數位落差非常大，這些高齡者在網路的使用率其實只有一半而已，近半65歲以上的長者是不會用網路的，而不會用網路，你怎麼樣避免「代操作」的風險？","主委，你有沒有想到其實超過一半，甚至就是更高的六成以上長者就是不會操作網路，所有在這一個數位落差這麼大的過程當中，局長還講到了，有沒有什麼樣更好的服務來服務老人？你只能靠郵局、你只能靠農會，事實上郵局跟農會普及性的服務讓數位弱勢的民眾也可以接受到便利的實體服務機會，可是在這裡，我想請問主委，你未來在科技金融裡頭，是不是也會一樣把它放到郵局、放到農漁會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實剛剛委員提到，在過去我照顧父母的經驗裡面，確實他們會有這樣的問題。"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分的話，我想請局長回答他可能會……"],["賴委員惠員：主委，我想請教你一下，你知道一個老人一個月可以領到的老人年金有多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：以前我母親是在某個縣市，大概是六、七千塊。"],["賴委員惠員：六、七千塊，現在已經八千多了，其實老人到所有銀行系統裡頭來的時候，他就是存錢、提錢，非常地簡單。既然偏鄉的郵局跟農漁會的信用部在還沒有普及以前，你有沒有考慮降低他們的手續費呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，確實跨行提款的部分會有一個手續費，這部分的話，我們可以來研議這個事情。"],["賴委員惠員：好，可以研議，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：接著，你要開放金融科技，我們知道在開放的過程當中，我們付出的社會成本也相當地高，是不是也必須要考慮到防詐？你看到在金融科技越方便的時候，是誰被騙得比較多？反而不是老人被騙得比較多，因為我們不會用，其實反而是年輕人被騙得比較多。我們從一個數據裡頭來看，從2017年的20億一直到現階段的80億，這7年當中增加60億，增加了4倍。主委，你怎麼看待虛擬貨幣的詐騙？它是金融創新還是一個詐騙陷阱？你看層出不窮的詐騙，我們覺得說在近四年的詐騙案，從66件暴增到245件，主委，如果金管會目前推出的虛擬貨幣專法沒有辦法有效地去管理這些沒有牌的公司，是不是會出現像租賃業一樣，沒牌的公司就是最大？我在這裡要請教金管會，如果你沒有辦法用監管股票市場的方式，高標準來監理虛擬貨幣的平台，如果都做不到的話，你為什麼要給它一個合法的地位呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，其實上這可以從兩個角度來思考。第一、現在我們對於所謂虛擬資產業者的管理都是遵照國際的步驟，因為他們在發展中，我們一定先從洗錢防制開始，接下來為什麼我們第四階段要訂定專法，這個專法裡面，其實我們在這專法之前，還有在打詐裡面，還有洗錢防制法裡面，也把它納入到這裡面的範圍，在打詐裡面也把它放進來，就是先從負面來……"],["賴委員惠員：主委，我想你們準備的、設想的都在計畫中進行，我想在這裡請問主委，如果今天有一個股票要上市，要受到多少的監理呢？一個股票上市要受到多少監理？你只要這樣回答我就好了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在股票上市的部分，第一個，它一定是公發，公發完還要上市，上市要經過我們交易所的審查，這個部分，它是有一個蠻嚴謹、蠻長的過程才有辦法。"],["賴委員惠員：好，一個券商如果要推薦你買賣一隻股票的話，要受到多少的監理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然這個牽涉到你今天有沒有這個執照，就像我們要推薦股票的話，按照我們現在的投信投顧法，應該是有它的規範。"],["賴委員惠員：是，這麼多的規範、這麼多的監理，你的金融科技的發展也應該要兼顧到數位弱勢，這才會避免掉讓金融科技反而成為金融詐騙的工具。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那是當然。"],["賴委員惠員：它變成是一個有牌的，這些老人會被騙光光，本來沒牌的時候還可以說銀行沒有認證，現在它只要有了你們給它的一個合法地位時，會騙得更慘。"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實……"],["賴委員惠員：是不是你要付出的詐騙成本會更高呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實，我們過去經驗的預期是所謂有牌就是機構納管，機構納管以後，必然增加它至少有內控和法遵上面的要求，再來，相應的它也會有明確的法律罰則，我想納管這件事情實際上一定會大幅地下降，剛才講還沒納管之前它可能導致的負面的效果。"],["賴委員惠員：有可能納管以後會大幅地下降嗎？詐騙會大幅地下降嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為機構所產生的比如剛才委員指正納管以後，它有了這個牌肆無忌憚，我想這個在過去的經驗比較不會發生，倒是那些還是沒有納管或不願意被納管的，可能就是要另外來處理。不過，我們過去的經驗……"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主委，我想這個有很多的問題，其實我們要深入的去瞭解，還有要深入的去研討。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員惠員：我再請央行總裁。"],["主席：有請楊總裁。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁，在這裡請教總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：通膨不斷往上，存款的利率會不會過低？昨天我們的CPI公布是2.42，和這個相比會不會過低呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，我知道委員在講的就是實質利率的問題。"],["賴委員惠員：對，實質利率。"],["楊總裁金龍：當然我們中央銀行也有關注這個實質利率的問題，我們如果跟其他國家來比較的話，事實上，也不是所有其他國家的實質利率都是正的，因為第一個，我們的通膨會慢慢地下來……"],["賴委員惠員：通膨會慢慢地下來？"],["楊總裁金龍：會、會、會，我……"],["賴委員惠員：你這麼有信心？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們的projection到目前為止，特別是像core來講的話，就是核心CPI，核心CPI現在都已經降到2%以下啦！"],["賴委員惠員：我跟你說，總裁，你不可以只看到核心的一個問題……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！"],["賴委員惠員：核心你扣掉糧食、你扣掉這些綠能啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！對啦！"],["賴委員惠員：其實這個就是食衣住行啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我想委員也沒有錯，就是人民的感受跟中央銀行貨幣政策所關注的指標好像是不一樣啦！"],["賴委員惠員：對啊！大家是……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！這個我同意，這個同意，我同意。"],["賴委員惠員：你同意？"],["楊總裁金龍：我同意，我同意委員……"],["賴委員惠員：所以臺幣可不可能升值呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：你看看大家的感受都跟我們中央銀行在講的，就是這個2%好像……"],["賴委員惠員：總裁，臺幣可不可能升值呢？八方雲集都已經漲價了，所有的食衣住行，然後……"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是，當然啦！我想……"],["賴委員惠員：房價也是往上漲的。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，中央銀行關注物價，但是我們不會單獨關注某一項的物價啦！"],["賴委員惠員：當然、當然。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們是關注所有物價的平均。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯、沒有錯……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！是這樣子。"],["賴委員惠員：所以在這裡也要跟總裁做一個建議，考慮有沒有機會加息？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是，好。"],["賴委員惠員：這個對於通膨有一個整體上的影響，貨幣的政策我們也希望你考慮到民生……"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["賴委員惠員：當然你說你有考慮嘛！可是大家感受不到，所以最後也要求金管會評估協助長者學習安全使用數位金融服務的具體作為，以及評估與郵局、農漁會信用部的合作，提高實質金融服務在偏鄉之覆蓋率的可行性，金管會也應該要考慮，是不是用更高的標準來監管虛擬貨幣交易平臺。謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員的質詢。","接著請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨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就是有一個部分可能要跟委員解釋就是說因為我們目前定義的偏鄉是還有包括就是說他也沒有郵費局也沒有信用合作社"},{"start":177.928,"end":195.281,"text":"市長你講到了我們的郵局我們的融匯系統那事實上我們在講這個數位落差非常大那這些高齡者在網路的使用率他其實只有一半而已那近半的一個65歲以上的長者是不會用網路的"},{"start":197.443,"end":211.964,"text":"那不會用網路你怎麼樣避免就是說帶操作的一個風險這個主委你有沒有想到就是說其實超過一半甚至就是更高六成以上他就是不會操作網路"},{"start":212.605,"end":213.585,"text":"那可是在這裡我想請問主委"},{"start":240.632,"end":240.752,"text":"賴惠員賴惠員"},{"start":260.554,"end":276.43,"text":"主委,我想請教您一下,那個你知道一個老人,一個月他可以領到的老人年金有多少?以前我母親大概是應該是他在某個縣市應該是大概六七千塊"},{"start":277.148,"end":279.51,"text":"對,確實跨行提款的部分是會有一個那個手續費吧,這部分的話"},{"start":305.636,"end":320.862,"text":"我們可以來演繹這個事情可以演繹好 謝謝主委謝謝那這接著就是說金融的科技你要開放那我們知道在這開放的過程當中我們付出的一個社會成本也相當的高那是不是也必須要考慮到黃柵"},{"start":322.442,"end":346.96,"text":"您看到在金融科技業方面的時候是誰被騙的比較多反而不是老人被騙的比較多因為我們不會用嘛其實反而是年輕人被騙的比較多那我們從一個數據裡頭來看從2017年它的一個20億一直到了就是說我們現階段的80億這個7年當中增加了60億增加了4倍啊"},{"start":348.181,"end":377.037,"text":"主委您怎麼看待的就是說新銀貨幣的一個詐騙是金融的一個創新還是一個詐騙的一個陷阱你看這個窮出不窮的一個詐騙是不是我們覺得說在近4年的詐騙案從66件暴增到245件那主委如果金管會目前推出了新銀貨幣的專法沒有辦法有效的去管理這些沒有牌的一個公司"},{"start":377.637,"end":399.355,"text":"那是不是會出現像朱鑫業一樣每一排的公司就是最大那如果我在這裡要請教金管會如果就是說你沒有辦法用監管股票市場的一個方式高標準的一個監理吸引貨幣的一個平台那你如果都做不到的話你為什麼要給他一個合法的地位呢"},{"start":401.036,"end":416.909,"text":"市長可以從兩個角度來思考第一個我們想說現在我們對於這個所謂的虛擬資產業者的管理都是遵照國際的一個步驟因為他們在發展中我們一定先從洗錢開始洗錢房子開始那接下來為什麼我們第4階段要訂定專法"},{"start":417.87,"end":420.992,"text":"主委,我想你們準備的、設想的這個都在這個計畫中在進行我想在這裡請問主委就是說如果今天有一個股票要上市"},{"start":444.924,"end":467.991,"text":"那你要受到多少的監理呢?一個股票要上市你要受到多少監理?你只要這樣回答我就好了現在股票上市的部分呢第一個他一定是公發公發完還要上市上市要經過我們的交易所的審查這個部分他是有一個蠻嚴謹蠻長的一個過程才有辦法一個建商如果要推薦你買賣一支股票的話要受到多少的監理?"},{"start":470.032,"end":499.252,"text":"當然這個牽涉到你今天是不是像比如說你是有沒有這個執照就像我們對我們要推薦股票的話我們按照我們的現在投進投不法應該是有它的規範是這麼多的一個規範這麼多的一個監理啊那你的金融科技的發展也應該要兼顧到就是數位的一個弱勢啊這個才會避免掉就是金融科技的緩成為金融詐騙的一個工具啊那是當然他變成是一個有牌的啊我家的老人可以用騙料料啊"},{"start":500.112,"end":517.598,"text":"本來沒白的時候還可以就是說這個銀行沒有認證現在他只要就是有了這個你們給他的一個合法的地位的時候騙得更慘那是不是你要付出的詐騙的一個成本會更高呢?"},{"start":518.058,"end":532.706,"text":"其實我們過去的經驗的預期是所謂有牌就是機構納管機構納管以後它必然增加它至少它內控還有法尊上面的要求再來它相應的也是會有明確的法律的法則我想"},{"start":533.166,"end":554.104,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":554.164,"end":554.484,"text":"總裁有請楊總裁"},{"start":576.69,"end":586.642,"text":"在這裡請教總裁,空盤不斷地往上,那存款的利率會不會過低?昨天我們的CPI公布是2.42,那這個相比會不會過低呢?"},{"start":593.484,"end":615.371,"text":"我知道委員在講的是實質利率的問題當然我們中央銀行也有關注這個實質利率的問題但是就是說我們如果跟其他國家來比較的話事實上也不是所有其他國家的實質利率都是這樣的"},{"start":616.571,"end":636.878,"text":"因為第一個就是說好因為我們的通膨會慢慢的會下來通膨會慢慢的下來會會會會這麼有信心對我們的Protection呢到目前為止我們特別是像Core來講的話就核心CPI核心CPI現在都已經降到2%以下了"},{"start":638.535,"end":659.687,"text":"主席,你不可以只看到核心的一個問題,核心你扣掉糧食,你扣掉這些利能,其實這個就是十一住行。我想委員也沒有錯,就是說人民的感受跟中央銀行的一個貨幣政策所關注的那個指標好像是不一樣。"},{"start":660.828,"end":662.369,"text":"我跟委員報告說中央銀行關注物價但是我們不會單獨關注某一項的物價"},{"start":689.585,"end":689.605,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":706.912,"end":706.932,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":728.297,"end":742.631,"text":"跟融融會信用部的合作提高實質的金融的服務在這個偏鄉覆蓋力的一個可行性那金管會也應該要考慮是不是用更高的一個標準就是來監管虛擬貨幣交易平台好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154639","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154639","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8d22c0ab497daf18b7345d751ed3a12a67bbd16534128448680b21b5ac2a9258a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:18:03 - 11:29:00","影片長度":"00:10:57","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS通勤月票辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:18:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:29:00+08:00","duration":657,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":391,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（11時18分）謝謝主席，我們請部長還有公路局局長。"],["主席：請部長跟陳局長。"],["李部長孟諺：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：部長好。關於TPASS，前幾天我在院會質詢的時候，部長也有提到，先跟交通部感謝一下，TPASS現在的確獲得滿好的迴響，事實上在111年的時候，交通部首次提出北北基通勤月票，正好那時候交通部到我們鳳山考察，我也要求月票到高雄，也都實現了。到112年7月，上路已突破全國5.5億人次使用，這個數目字真的滿不錯的，表示交通部這部分做得還不錯，所以首先予以感謝跟鼓勵。"],["李部長孟諺：謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：當然好還要更好，我們叫做實事求是、精益求精，上一次我在院會有跟部長要求TPASS是不是可以結合好玩卡，交通部也有在研擬，對不對？"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["許委員智傑：我想部長可能沒有玩過好玩卡，其實我們的TPASS是針對交通，好玩卡是針對觀光，公路局在規劃TPASS的時候，如果只是規劃公路局的，就會變成兩線獨立行使，事實上兩線如果結合，一加一可以大於二，所以我希望公路局跟交通部可以有這樣的思考，未來才會有不一樣的翻轉。我舉個例子給部長參考，部長可以參考一下大阪那邊，你可能沒有去玩過，日本有周遊卷跟樂遊券，周遊券是實體卡，樂遊券是QRcode，他們規劃到多細呢？你可以看到這個語言，中間那一條字太小了，他們的語言包括日語、英語、繁體中文、簡體中文、韓語，不同國家的人去那邊玩，你要看他們裡面的細部內容，你就可以用自己的語言進去看，然後你看底下有很多好玩的點，空中庭園展望臺、天空美術館、摩天輪等等，你看還有美女做代言人。他們這個行事曆規劃到多細，我跟部長報告，你看7月9號黃色那一天，你只要點那一天，這些旅遊景點的哪一些點在今天休館、哪一些點開放的時間是什麼時候，只要點進去都寫得很清楚，所以你如果要去大阪旅遊，你只要在網上這樣看一下、查一下就大概知道怎麼玩，包括還有免費景點，你出示卡片還會送小禮物，甚至你去買什麼東西會打折，也就是有人潮才會有錢潮，所以臺灣的好玩卡跟TPASS將來是不是有機會結合並且出電子版？現在年輕人到全世界各國去玩，他們已經很習慣用QRcode電子版在玩。我們再看底下第二行，未來的TPASS，交通部可以看看日本跟高雄的MeNGo卡，我們高雄的MeNGo卡其實也做得還不錯，現在應該比臺北推得還要好，但是從交通部公路局的角度，它是TPASS卡，從觀光署的角度，今天觀光署正好沒來，也拜託部長要先有這樣的格局跟眼光，一起要求觀光署，也就是要搭配在一起才會玩得更好玩。","我們再看韓國，其實韓國首爾的轉轉卡也是類似，他們現在在學習大阪，事實上這部分除了歐洲之外，亞洲應該是大阪做得最好，韓國他們也在學習這個轉轉卡，你可以看它的價格，你看右邊這個臺幣價格，在大阪大概1,100元，在首爾大概1,500元，在高雄我們從1,090元到現在陳其邁市長把它變成990元，北北基大概是1,900元。類似這樣的一個卡，它可以坐交通工具、可以到旅遊景點，全部都把它融合在一起，甚至你上網就可以看到這麼多的旅遊景點，哪一天、什麼日期開放什麼，這做得很細，所以你可以看到臺灣在這部分還差很遠，我們沒有做這麼細的規劃。再來，我們用旅遊景點來思考，剛剛那一張你可以看到世界博覽會在大阪，我們要趁這個時候，其實世界博覽會是在宣揚國威或者宣傳自己國家的特色，你知道大阪在明年3月到10月規劃3,000萬個人次，如果我們臺灣館在那邊，人家要吸引3,000萬人到這個城市，那我們在那個城市有沒有宣傳？以及在這個世界博覽會之前，我們臺灣這部分的配套有沒有做好？假設我們是高雄的MeNGo卡再加上臺北、北北基，其實可以配合這個好玩卡，將來是不是臺灣各個不同的城市都可以有這樣的推動？今天假設高雄人會去買北北基的好玩卡，臺中人會去買高雄好玩卡，國人要先會用，外國人來才會用，所以在明年世界博覽會的時候，是不是我們交通部跟觀光署，當然公路局是管國內公路，但是如果也加上觀光的概念，我們有沒有機會吸引人家去世界博覽會，順便到臺灣來玩？比如說，我們文化總會今年去京都辦TAIWAN PLUS，也是一個宣傳熱身，也是希望替臺灣宣傳，包括之前的東京奧運，故宮也會去宣傳，我們有大阪辦事處，也有我們觀光署的辦事處，我們有沒有做這樣的準備？","我是希望處處都是打卡點、部部都是觀光部，臺灣將來是高科技產業國跟觀光文化國，需要我們做更多這樣的全面性思考，才能把臺灣這部分再做一個不同的提升，所以我在這邊正式呼籲，交通部要重點推行TPASS 2.0，目前的TPASS是針對交通，未來的TPASS 2.0是交通跟觀光，TPASS 2.0是包括像日本、韓國這樣的精緻，我們要做精緻的整理，目前我們大部分都是外包，其實好玩卡的外包效果不好，日本和韓國他們都是自己公部門主導，當然它可能也會組公司或是有一個法人機構等等，但是公部門就會負責做比較完整的思考跟效率成果的展現，你外包出去，好像外包出去就沒事了，我覺得這個不夠，所以是不是請部長能夠仔細做這樣的思考，然後跟公路局跟觀光署做結合？未來我們可以看到TPASS 2.0表現出不一樣的高度跟不一樣的細膩，能夠吸引世界的人到我們臺灣來玩，這部分部長還OK嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：是，謝謝委員的提醒，確實怎麼樣讓「食宿遊購行」可以像人家說的一網打盡，其實是「一卡打盡」……"],["許委員智傑：對。"],["李部長孟諺：一卡都涵蓋在內，我覺得觀光客只要辦一張卡，來臺灣旅遊的「食宿遊購行」都可以在裡面得到很好的資訊，或者是很好的優惠。"],["許委員智傑：對。"],["李部長孟諺：我覺得這應該是我們要努力的方向。"],["許委員智傑：好，我今天把這個給部長看一下，你知道別人國家怎麼玩，而我們國內什麼時候可以看到交通部有這樣子豐富的內容跟展現，讓國人、讓世界的人可以到臺灣這樣子玩？"],["李部長孟諺：對。"],["許委員智傑：部長有沒有什麼概念？時間上有個要求……"],["李部長孟諺：第一個，現在公路總局會在年底推TPASS 2.0，也就是比較短天期的，譬如說5天、7天，讓觀光客或者是讓出差的……"],["許委員智傑：所以TPASS又把好玩卡結合嘛！"],["李部長孟諺：但是現在還沒有考慮到把相關的「食宿遊購」結合進來，這個我們會再請公路局跟觀光署來看怎麼樣……"],["許委員智傑：對，我今天的重點就是跨署司的一個……在交通部底下能夠由部長督導跟要求，請他們能夠有具體的成果展現，明年日本舉辦世界博覽會，我們國內從今年就開始準備，明年他們來也正好可以用得上。"],["李部長孟諺：確實從公路局的角度覺得只要解決行的問題，怎麼樣把「食宿遊購」也都能夠……"],["許委員智傑：所以要部部都是觀光部啊！公路局也要有這樣子的思考。"],["李部長孟諺：是，我們來……"],["許委員智傑：好，當然是由部長來督導，這樣OK嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：嗯。"],["許委員智傑：因應明年的世界博覽會，在今年年底之前，你們要做TPASS 2.0，我希望把這個一起規劃進去，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：好，我們來努力。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，許智傑委員發言完畢。","現在請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-19","speakers":["李昆澤","陳素月","廖先翔","何欣純","林國成","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳雪生","林沛祥","蔡其昌","邱若華","牛煦庭","陳俊宇","游顥"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS 通勤月票辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.32534375,"end":14.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.223468750000002,"end":10.847843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.88534375,"end":13.919093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.919093750000002,"end":13.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.93596875,"end":13.952843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.952843750000003,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.00346875,"end":14.189093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.965343750000002,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.184718750000002,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.06159375,"end":20.078468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.078468750000003,"end":20.500343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.47909375,"end":22.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.18346875,"end":26.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.047843750000002,"end":29.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.69721875,"end":29.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.79846875,"end":37.493468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.79721875,"end":46.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.38659375,"end":54.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.95909375,"end":58.469093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.94159375,"end":63.244718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.98721875000001,"end":72.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.45409375,"end":73.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.79159375,"end":75.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.03596875000001,"end":78.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.71909375,"end":85.50284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.85721875,"end":87.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.82721875,"end":91.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.61159375000001,"end":91.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.96596875,"end":95.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.72471875000001,"end":100.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.60596875,"end":102.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.59721875000001,"end":103.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.38596875,"end":107.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.21659375,"end":112.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.60409375,"end":112.90784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.90784375000001,"end":114.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.92471875000001,"end":112.94159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.79784375000001,"end":127.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.29784375,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.63471875000002,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.63346875000002,"end":141.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.71346875,"end":147.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.97409375,"end":150.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.99471875,"end":152.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.52596875,"end":154.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.97721875000002,"end":155.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.71534375000002,"end":158.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.06096875,"end":163.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.22471875000002,"end":167.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.00471875000002,"end":171.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.15596875,"end":179.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.59346875,"end":182.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.92221875,"end":187.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.06909375,"end":192.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.06409375,"end":196.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.45159375,"end":199.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.32034375,"end":202.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.10471875000002,"end":211.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.58846875,"end":237.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.03596875000002,"end":239.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.92596875,"end":246.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.57034375,"end":250.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.54034375,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.45534375000003,"end":259.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.90596875,"end":273.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":274.14846875,"end":274.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.16534375000003,"end":276.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.33784375,"end":289.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.14596875,"end":293.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":293.95971875000004,"end":294.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.09471875,"end":330.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對不對我想部長可能沒有玩過好玩卡好玩卡其實我們的TPASS是針對交通好玩卡是針對觀光那公路局在規劃這個TPASS的時候"},{"start":108.311,"end":131.385,"text":"如果只是規劃公路局的就會變成兩線的獨立行駛事實上兩線如果結合一加一可以大於二所以我希望說公路局跟交通部可以有這樣子的思考未來才會有不一樣的反轉我舉個例子給部長參考部長這你可以參考一下你大阪那你可能不去上過"},{"start":133.411,"end":155.724,"text":"日本有週郵券跟樂郵券週郵券是實體卡樂郵券是QR CODE他們規劃到多細呢你可以看到他這個語言你看中間那一條字太小了他們的語言包括日語、英語、繁體中文"},{"start":157.155,"end":181.709,"text":"簡體中文、韓語你不同的國家要去那邊玩你要看他們的裡面的細部的內容你就可以用自己的語言進去看然後你看底下有很多的好玩的點什麼空中庭園長萬台天空美術館摩天輪等等你看還有那個美女做代言人"},{"start":183.138,"end":211.452,"text":"那他們規劃到這個形勢力上規劃多細跟部長報告所以你看到他7月9號黃色的那一天你只要點那一天那這些旅遊景點哪一些點在今天是休館的哪一些點開放的時間是什麼時候他只要點進去都寫得很清楚所以你如果要去大阪旅遊你只要在網上這樣子看了一下查了一下你大概就知道要怎麼玩"},{"start":213.079,"end":238.934,"text":"那包括你看他那邊還有免費景點你出示卡片他會送你小禮物甚至你去買什麼東西會打折也就是說你有人潮才會有錢潮嘛所以台灣好玩卡跟TPASS是不是將來有機會結合這個要出這個電子版那現在年輕人其實到全世界各國去玩他們已經很習慣用這個QR CODE電子版在玩那我們再看"},{"start":240.214,"end":259.149,"text":"底下第二行就是未來的TPASS其實交通部可以看看日本跟高雄的Mango卡我們高雄Mango卡其實也做得還不錯那現在應該比台北推得還要好啦但是這個就是從交通部公務局的角度它是TPASS卡"},{"start":259.963,"end":275.382,"text":"那從觀光署的角度今天觀光署正好沒來也拜託部長先有這樣一個格局跟眼光那也一起要求觀光署就是說這個搭配在一起他才會玩得更好玩所以呢我們再看韓國"},{"start":277.824,"end":292.526,"text":"韓國其實韓國的那個首爾的轉轉卡也類似他們現在在學習大阪事實上大阪這部分應該是除了歐洲之外亞洲應該是大阪做得最好的那韓國他們也在學習他這個轉轉卡"},{"start":299.391,"end":310.224,"text":"臺幣在大阪大概一千一在首爾大概一千五在高雄我們從一零九零現在陳其邁市長現在把它變成九九零那北北基大概有一千九"},{"start":311.085,"end":334.634,"text":"那類似這樣子一個卡它可以做交通工具可以到旅遊景點那全部都把它融合在一起甚至你上網就可以看到我們在看前面日本那一張你上網就可以看到你看這麼多的旅遊景點哪一天什麼日期開放什麼這做得很細所以你可以看到台灣在這部分還差很遠我們沒有做這麼細的規劃"},{"start":337.031,"end":356.902,"text":"那再來我們再用有幾點來思考,你剛剛看那張,你可以看到這個世界博覽會在大阪那我們要趁這個時候呢,其實世界博覽會是在宣揚國威嘛,或者是宣傳自己國家的特色那你知道在大阪明年3月到10月規劃3萬個人次了,3000萬個人次了"},{"start":359.284,"end":375.446,"text":"如果我們台灣館在那邊趁機人家也要吸引3000萬人到這個城市去那我們在那個城市去有沒有去宣傳以及在這個城市世界博覽會之前我們台灣這部分的配套有沒有做好"},{"start":376.488,"end":390.576,"text":"假設我們就是從高雄來美國卡再加上台北北北基這個其實可以配合這個好玩卡那將來是不是台灣各個不同的城市都可以有這樣子一個推動"},{"start":391.716,"end":420.736,"text":"今天假設我高雄人我會來買北北機的好玩卡那臺中人會去買高雄的好玩卡你今天國人要先會用外國人要來才會用所以在世界博覽會這個明年的時候是不是我們交通部跟公安署當然公路局去管國內的公路但是你如果也加上觀光的概念我們有沒有機會去吸引人家去世界博覽會順便到台灣來玩"},{"start":422.537,"end":435.254,"text":"那比如說我們文化總會其實今年去京都要辦台灣PLUS也是一個宣傳熱身也是希望替台灣宣傳那包括之前的那個東京奧運故宮也會去宣傳"},{"start":436.144,"end":465.505,"text":"那我們今天大阪有大阪辦事處也有我們觀光署的辦事處那我們有沒有做這樣子一個準備我是希望說處處都是打卡點部部都是觀光部台灣將來高科技產業國跟觀光文化國需要我們做更多這樣子一個全面性的思考才能夠把台灣這部分再做一個不同的提升所以我在這邊正式的呼籲就是說最後一行交通部"},{"start":466.345,"end":482.84,"text":"上一頁 最後一樣 交通部重點要推行TPASS 2.0目前的TPASS是針對交通 未來的TPASS 2.0是交通跟觀光那TPASS 2.0是包括像日本韓國這樣子一個"},{"start":487.966,"end":510.318,"text":"那目前呢,我們都是,大部分都是外包啦。那外包其實,好文卡這個外包效果不好。日本跟韓國他們都是自己公部門主導。當然就是說他可能也會主公司,或者是他會有一個法人、機構等等。但是公部門就會負責去做這一部分比較完整的思考跟效率成果的展現。"},{"start":511.374,"end":532.94,"text":"你外包出去好像外包出去就沒事了我是覺得這個不夠所以是不是請部長能夠仔細做這樣的一個思考然後跟公路局跟觀光署做一個結合那為了我們可以看到TPASS 2.0表現的是不一樣的高度跟不一樣的細膩然後能夠吸引世界的人到我們台灣來玩這部分部長還OK嗎"},{"start":533.76,"end":562.8,"text":"是 我想謝謝委員的提醒那確實怎麼樣讓食宿遊構型可以人家說一網打盡是一卡打盡一卡都涵蓋在內我覺得讓觀光客他覺得他只要辦一張卡來台灣旅遊的食宿遊構型都可以在裡面得到很好的這個資訊或者是很好的優惠那我覺得這個方向應該是我們要來努力好 我今天是把這個給部長看了一下就是說你知道人家國家怎麼玩"},{"start":563.34,"end":573.555,"text":"那我們國內什麼時候可以看到我們交通部有這樣子一個豐富的內容跟展現讓國人、讓世人、世界的人可以到台灣這樣子玩"},{"start":575.066,"end":594.776,"text":"部長有沒有什麼概念時間上有個要求?第一個就是我們現在公共總局會在年底推T-PASS 2.0那這個部分就是會比較短天期比如說5天、7天那麼讓觀光客或是讓出差的所以T-PASS有把好玩卡結合嗎?"},{"start":595.336,"end":614.748,"text":"但是現在還沒有考慮到要把相關的時數有夠把它結合再進來所以這個我們會再跟請公務局跟觀光署大家看怎麼樣對就是我是今天的重點就是一個跨署司的一個交通部底下由部長能夠督導跟要求"},{"start":615.188,"end":639.188,"text":"那請他們能夠有具體的成果的展現在明年的世界展覽會博覽會到日本的時候我們國內今年就開始做準備那明年他們來也正好可以用得上確實從公路局的角度他覺得我只要解決行的問題那怎麼樣把時數郵購也都能夠所以要步步都是觀光部啊那個我們的公路局也要有這樣子的思考"},{"start":644.133,"end":654.424,"text":"明年的世界博覽會今年年底之前,你們要做TPASS2.0,我就希望把這個一起規劃進去,好不好?好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154638","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154638","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8d5d798de0184cf857345d751ed3a12a67bbd165341284486f2cd038e26ea9a035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:07:46 - 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mall 2026要開張，我們要有預期心理，現在就要逐步地來調整、來面對、因應，兩年後全亞洲最大的娛樂城如果真的完工開始啟用了之後，它未來的人潮、車潮遠遠數倍於現在的規模，我們又該如何因應？所以我再一次很誠懇地提醒，好不好？逐步的調整，逐步以其他各車站的經驗來做最恰當的調整，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：是，我想這部分會請臺鐵跟高鐵密切合作，不要讓下高鐵的乘客轉搭臺鐵等候過久，這樣就會失去接駁的意義。"],["何委員欣純：什麼樣是適當的等候時間，我覺得這個可以有大數據來跟其他各國大車站做一個比較，或者是汲取他們的經驗，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：是，另外全國最大的shopping mall目前有一個專案在研擬、評估週遭的交通，怎麼樣能夠不至於造成很大的交通負擔。"],["何委員欣純：是，好不好？好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員發言完畢。","現在請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-19","speakers":["李昆澤","陳素月","廖先翔","何欣純","林國成","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳雪生","林沛祥","蔡其昌","邱若華","牛煦庭","陳俊宇","游顥"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS 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央全力支持那我是希望再借重中央的經驗就是說其他城市的捷運入網尤其像臺北市已經成行那我們希望未來能夠"},{"start":45.081,"end":73.887,"text":"參考其他城市的經驗那請中央也跟地方一起把我們台中捷運的五線齊發的一個財務的規劃要如何穩健然後能夠落實而且中央全力支持這個我希望將來部長可以中央的立場跟經驗來支持地方而且給地方一個充分的一個意見好不好這是一個提醒第二個我們今天談TPASS那事實上TPASS就"},{"start":75.254,"end":102.154,"text":"跟剛剛我講的捷運其實有關係的T-PASS如果要真正達到它最大的一個經濟效應那它前提必須不管軟硬體的一個交通基礎運輸是必須要完善的那以台中來講現在有鐵道公路捷運只有一條但是我們也很高興在中央的支持之下我們看到這個數據是來自於交通部公路局的"},{"start":102.694,"end":103.675,"text":"臺中的增加率是最高的"},{"start":118.462,"end":119.784,"text":"本來就是充分的使用那所以呢雖然他的成長比較少但是還是有成長"},{"start":135.665,"end":152.752,"text":"南部也相對的成長的算不錯將近150、140幾所以以TPASS這樣子的一個公共政策行政院的決定是對的他的決策是對的而且真的是對我們全台灣的"},{"start":153.652,"end":175.368,"text":"北中南的公共運輸是有增加成長的趨勢尤其台中增加了2.3倍所以我必須要先謝謝行政院謝謝交通部那接著我們就要來討論那執行一年像我剛剛講都有提升但是台中提升這麼大的情況之下我們捷運還是只有一條線"},{"start":177.969,"end":205.808,"text":"我期許在剛剛我講的中央能夠努力的支持臺中捷運入網成型而且能夠五線齊發能夠完成除了穩健的財務規劃中央要支持以外最重要的是未來的TPASS的一個政策的延續永續還有是不是有其他加碼的可能性來全力支持臺中的這個公共運輸還有我們的TPASS政策可以在"},{"start":206.368,"end":206.869,"text":"後續我們覺得也"},{"start":225.751,"end":244.507,"text":"交通部也會來跟院裡面院裡面我認為也是支持的就繼續的來持續延續這樣的政策那但是確實是後續怎麼樣能夠再更精進讓使用率更高那提升大眾運輸的這個這個搭乘我想還有很多各方面的努力要"},{"start":244.687,"end":258.443,"text":"其實還有很多可以檢討的空間還可以再努力第一個使用的便利性第二個這個要便利性的軟硬體我剛剛一開頭所講的軟硬體設施都要到位要夠完善"},{"start":260.064,"end":273.99,"text":"當然我們一般民眾他會使用這個公共運輸的意願就會提高意願提高再加上政府的政策決策的一個引導跟配合跟補助那當然才會"},{"start":274.85,"end":299.589,"text":"改變國人的交通習慣使用習慣這個在台中尤其重要尤其台中的人口正在成長已經是全國的第二大城市如果再加上其他中部的縣市事實上是數百萬的人口的移動人口在這個台中都會需再移動所以這個要拜託部長一定要支持也要求行政院來支持"},{"start":300.089,"end":322.492,"text":"那接下來我就要跟你講說那既然台中是全國的第二大城市人口又在成長那加上我們這幾年來對於爭取國內外的觀光客來台中也是我們的城市行銷一個最重要的策略之一那除了台中市自己本身要努力之外接著就是什麼交通基礎設施到底方不方便"},{"start":323.513,"end":343.432,"text":"我們現在看到以這個捷運路網這個是我們未來的願景圖剛剛講的五線齊發在還沒有只有一個一條綠線的情況之下公路跟鐵路是現在接柏進市區的重要選項那尤其是鐵路尤其現在你看到從清泉崗機場要進來市區"},{"start":346.807,"end":369.74,"text":"是非常不方便還不方便那我們高鐵呢從新烏日站要進市區也不是很有善之前我曾經跟杜董事長提過包括班次的增加那班次的增加呢就要什麼就要因為新烏日站叫做三鐵共購在三鐵共購的情況之下我們不僅僅是雙鐵啦我現在只是今天只是講雙鐵事實上連捷運的便利性都未來要納進去"},{"start":375.443,"end":402.998,"text":"這樣子呢 國內外的旅客選擇臺中這個城市要來觀光旅遊的時候他才會方便啦方便的時候那才能夠有正向的一個循環吸引更多人來臺中嘛 對不對我今天只是稍微把這個高鐵的到站的時刻從早上到下午跟那台鐵在新烏日站的一個區間車的一個發車的時刻我只是稍微比對了一下啦事實上我覺得這個等待的時間算長"},{"start":404.139,"end":430.095,"text":"而且還可以再改進經濟就是銜接啦那個班車與班車之間的銜接我們是不是第一個我的建議有沒有可能呢是不是盤點像台北火車站也好或者日本東京車站也好或者是呢國外的各個國家的一個主要的一個轉運車站轉協車站也好我們去看看別人的經驗怎麼樣的一個等候的時間轉協的時間是"},{"start":432.697,"end":432.837,"text":"何欣純議員"},{"start":449.81,"end":450.15,"text":"先請董事長回答好了"},{"start":470.931,"end":489.339,"text":"跟委員報告的確最近我們高鐵還有增班是高鐵7月開始要再增43班對所以在這個情況之下我們這個提供的我們的接駁的車輛我們會來跟高鐵配合來研議看怎麼樣來調整這個間距"},{"start":491.88,"end":520.587,"text":"部長你就希望要求這個台鐵基於專業而且他必須要跨雙鐵來協調那如果更進一步的話還要跟地方政府捷運來做協調那如何讓這個轉成轉弦的這個不僅僅是空間的一個問題還有時間的拿捏問題那甚至牽涉到這個山鐵公共裡面的車站裡面的營運的問題那我相信這個是"},{"start":521.707,"end":547.052,"text":"可以有其他的經驗來研議再加上我再提醒雖然是兩年後會發生的事情再提醒一次高鐵車站外我們鐵道局招商的全亞洲最大的shopping mall2026要開張我們要有預期心理現在就要逐步的來調整來面對因應你兩年後"},{"start":548.427,"end":571.646,"text":"那一個全亞洲最大的娛樂城如果真的完工開始啟用了之後他未來的人潮車潮是遠遠數倍於現在的規模那我們又該如何因應所以我再一次很誠懇的提醒啦好不好逐步的來調整逐步的以其他各車站的一個經驗來做最恰當的調整好不好"},{"start":571.966,"end":592.596,"text":"我想這個部分台鐵會請台鐵跟高鐵密切合作不要讓下了高鐵的乘客轉搭台鐵那等候過久那這樣就會失去接駁什麼樣是適當的等候時間我覺得這個是可以有大數據或是其他各國的大車站可以來做一個比較或者是來汲取他們的經驗嗎好不好"},{"start":592.796,"end":605.226,"text":"那另外那個全國最大這個shopping mall目前有一個專案在研擬在評估周遭的交通怎麼樣能夠不至於造成這個對很大的這個交通的負擔是好不好好謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"154637","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154637","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f86afe7cf0950709d97345d751ed3a12a67bbd16534128448695660381a021fc6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:43:22 - 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請主席邀請李部長請李部長部長很早就是有關TPASS通勤月票從去年7月1號上路到今天也剛好滿一年了那這個政策的一個實施我想當初就是希望來減輕這個通勤組的這個負擔"},{"start":33.029,"end":35.112,"text":"提升公共運輸運量檢討道路交通事故經過實施一年,請部長說一下成效如何"},{"start":48.809,"end":66.206,"text":"跟委員報告就是目前整體的公共運輸那經過TPASS這樣跟實施前同期來比較大概普遍公共運具的使用率提升了12.7那其中像臺鐵大概提升了20%"},{"start":67.748,"end":95.085,"text":"那另外捷運的部分跟去年的同期比較跟實施前的同期比較都有顯著提升那像桃園捷運大概提升了百分之六十幾以上就是有我們看到這個統計的資料就是目前就是全國累計已經有達到768.8萬人次來加持購買這個通勤月票那使用的人次也累計到這個5.74億人次的一個使用"},{"start":95.525,"end":96.026,"text":"通勤月票通勤組"},{"start":120.589,"end":120.93,"text":"李孟諺議員"},{"start":130.953,"end":154.122,"text":"是 如果以各個區來分析 它的這個公共運輸的運量 像中樟投苗那它的運量從這個1200多萬增加到1300多萬提升了大概8.64那確實是有一些移轉的效果 就是說原來可能是利用自由的運具要有移轉到公共運輸來"},{"start":156.042,"end":170.949,"text":"每個地方的效果因為路網的密度等等不一所以效果不一定完全一樣我們看到有關TPASS的使用就生活圈的統計來看還是集中在北部都會區就是北北桃"},{"start":175.516,"end":176.257,"text":"中南部公共運輸"},{"start":191.998,"end":193.079,"text":"我們希望就是說接下來我們交通部還會在"},{"start":219.389,"end":220.391,"text":"除了TPASS讓他可以持續的來推動之外"},{"start":236.713,"end":261.911,"text":"其實我們另外還有一個計畫就是提升國內的公共運輸包括對於電動公車、市區公車的補助像今年就合訂了新增1900多台希望這些都盡量能夠補助到中南部另外幸福巴士這個也是持續在推動還有各縣市增建捷運的路網"},{"start":262.551,"end":262.852,"text":"臺鐵班次提升"},{"start":271.863,"end":299.788,"text":"對中南部來說公共運輸的建設資源比較少比北部比較少因為我們這樣彰化就沒有捷運目前還在規劃當中鐵路由北到南這樣縱線的鐵路所以對我們鄉親來說因為交通工具少選擇性就是比較少所以要來使用TPASS的"},{"start":300.168,"end":300.208,"text":"李孟諺"},{"start":320.718,"end":343.684,"text":"目前在彰化縣就是已經合併然後已經在通車的就只有竹塘鄉的幸福巴士那目前已經陸續在申請已經決標的就是永晉然後目前還在審核合併當中的有西州和美希望在這些有申請的這些鄉鎮我們也希望交通部能夠"},{"start":344.104,"end":344.524,"text":"主堂已經通車了"},{"start":367.385,"end":389.967,"text":"主堂另外還有一個路線還有一個路線那相信後續應該還會有其他的鄉鎮會再來送申請那這部分也希望交通部能夠多予以協助那剛剛部長有提到說補助這個電動巴士的一個部分可是這個我們還有設幾個問題就是駕駛人力這個缺工的一個問題"},{"start":390.928,"end":391.068,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":412.842,"end":412.922,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":440.089,"end":440.189,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":455.649,"end":456.249,"text":"陳素月委員"},{"start":476.56,"end":492.946,"text":"另外一個就是現在跟勞動部正在研擬就是有一些駕駛會列入中高階人力那引進相關的國外的這個人力來來協助現在已經幫忙各客運增加了將近2900位的這個新增新進的駕駛"},{"start":496.027,"end":505.431,"text":"部長的政策跟客運公司有密切宣傳嗎?我們看後續怎麼樣才可以再精進"},{"start":508.095,"end":527.129,"text":"是,畢竟這個都是有連帶關係的啦,你沒有人,然後就沒有辦法這個正常的一個營運嘛,那路線也沒有辦法有更充足啦,那另外就是我們交通部也有目前就是在試辦,應該是試辦的一個政策,就是愛接受預約式的通用計程車服務,這樣子的一個計畫嘛,"},{"start":529.691,"end":557.421,"text":"那這個計畫目前我們應該就是這是運營所在辦理的是不是可以簡單說明一下這個成效如何是跟委員報告一下IJ送的這個示範計畫當然目前是在六都都已經有這個服務的車隊然後整個一個服務的人次大概已經應該有到70萬人次以上那這個是讓受到各個這一個"},{"start":558.821,"end":585.525,"text":"包括服務的民眾跟地方政府都希望能夠持續後續能夠來推動辦理那這個部分因為我們是事辦計畫會到今年的這個年底但是後續的部分就會回歸到部門面對於所謂的通用計程車的一個補助的一個辦法裡面那會把這個愛接送這個部分未來在營運上面怎麼樣能夠把它的衍生的成本能夠反映到"},{"start":586.125,"end":586.165,"text":"李孟諺"},{"start":608.522,"end":636.962,"text":"如果說有這樣子的一個愛接送可以預約式的通用計程車服務我想對他們幫助會比較大因為剛剛我們提到這個幸福巴士他是有固定的一個行駛的一個路線我想對於一些行動不便的長輩也是仍然還是不夠方便不夠這個便利性所以針對這一個政策就是愛接送預約式的通用計程車服務我們是建議交通部是不是可以就是評估他的成效之後未來能夠"},{"start":637.602,"end":637.742,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154636","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154636","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f890c97f523f7006522652beeb573fd6de7bbd1653412844863801785a97705b0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:18:21 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專業委員什麼都不懂的委員來留下來聽一下連公私協力都聽不懂 委員這邊還是說明一下就是說 基本上謝謝 不知道什麼叫公私協力留下來聽一下謝謝吳思瑤委員的尊重因為本來按照議事規則基本上"},{"start":27.311,"end":35.157,"text":"主席我們這裡會不會提供嘔吐袋啊?司法委員會不是剛剛有人一邊講很噁心的東西一邊說不要介入個案一邊在講什麼基隆市政府的案子當場一直打臉自己我看都很想吐欸那那我想請這個我們財政部次長有出差司有來嘛對"},{"start":60.356,"end":86.791,"text":"法務部,因為我剛剛看到法務部的這個內容市長你好,上回在財政部有跟您請教過這一個今天的主題是公私協力就是說公私協力有什麼樣的合作營運的法制模式那因為我們的委員有一些都不了解自己的職權他說看不懂這個題目所以我想說在這裡跟您切磋一下也讓這個吳士堯委員知道立法委員的職權是什麼那為什麼題目看不懂還可以一直在這邊罵別人"},{"start":88.852,"end":115.118,"text":"我們知道像公私協力我剛剛看到這個內政部的這個內政部有寫嘛內政部的報告裡頭寫出有幾種模式嘛什麼BOTR、ROTR但是我發現公私協力裡面有一個很重要的這個就是很重要一點有一個最新的一個做法叫做PVP嘛Public Private and Partnerships對不對我們看裡面都沒有是不是因為我們的這個財政部出現在這個推廣的方面比較沒有"},{"start":116.575,"end":137.905,"text":"報告委員你知道我在說什麼嗎這是公私協力對吧也是這個公私這個部門合作營運的這種相關的這個不同的一個最新的一個模式嗎是的 是在111年修法的時候我們新增了九支一條那增進了這個叫做政府有償取的公共服務"},{"start":138.405,"end":166.497,"text":"主要的概念是除了剛剛講的BOT、BTO、OT等等我們認為說在公私協定裡面如果政府可以付費來取得服務的話這也不是一個好的方法我讓你充分講是因為我發現我們的立法委員其實不只立法委員包括很多部門裡頭的報告裡頭也沒有寫到這一點可見我覺得你們的宣導是不夠的然後立法委員連看題目也看不懂說不知道今天是要討論什麼"},{"start":168.157,"end":181.32,"text":"對不對,這個就要討論法制嘛,是不是比如說BOT啊、ROT啊、PPP啊這些各種,或是OT啊各種的這個法制的這種形式上到底在對我們這個政府在獎勵這個民間引進這個出差方面相關的這個的這種投資齁,幫助這個除了政府力量以外,讓民間力量引進來,有什麼好的方法"},{"start":191.883,"end":201.827,"text":"或者中間有什麼缺失如果可以在法制面做改善的話那民間投資的意願會比較強嘛對吧你說對吧是的對嘛沒錯嘛所以這個題目是定的很好事實上也是很有深度的只是我很遺憾是看到說第一個我們的這個相關的政府部門也不懂有一些新的這一種營運模式嘛剛剛我看到報告裡頭就寫的不詳盡那第二我就看到我們的這個相關即便是我們立法委員一邊在說他不知道今天的題目是什麼"},{"start":220.373,"end":220.393,"text":"來 次長"},{"start":242.151,"end":263.303,"text":"委員好那剛剛我又聽到委員一直在講說這個有人排這個就是故意就用個案啊什麼政治利益介入你們法務部會接受政治利益介入嗎當然不可以當然不會對不對所以這個委員這樣講事實上是對你們的沒有信心啊或者是他一向認為那個法務部都會介入政治個案就是只要委員這樣執行你們就會去介入有這種事嗎"},{"start":264.83,"end":274.655,"text":"委員的說法我們當然都尊重,但法務部的立場是絕對不尊重。絕對不會嘛,可是剛剛那個我們民進黨的這個這個黨防幹部公開說你們會受到政治力影響啊,會嗎?"},{"start":277.339,"end":306.437,"text":"這是委員的執行內容他執行內容啦他自己思想錯誤一定要把東西壓在別人身上這個我們也是沒有辦法嘛對不對你沒有辦法評論嘛對不對我沒有辦法評論沒辦法評論嘛對嘛因為你也不能贊同嘛是不是所以這個自己思想不正確然後一直想個案就說別人一直想個案自己心裡想說是不是他們有什麼行政力量可以介入因為心裡有這種想法才會覺得別人在問這些問題就想要介入明明我們的法務部就這麼的剛正不阿根本就不會接受政治力介入對不對"},{"start":307.853,"end":329.934,"text":"本來就不應該 本來我們講到辦就不應該接受這個政策對啊 然後你們本來也就不會嘛 對不對所以我們質詢關心 國會議員關心社會上所矚目的案件不管是社攤的啊 或者這一陣子很重大這個台南市的這個槍擊案件造成國人全面性的恐慌啊 這個當然你們是不是應該加強的去查辦嘛 對不對"},{"start":333.468,"end":354.006,"text":"像槍擊這個案子很重大嘛加強查辦對不對本來就應該嘛對然後我們如果這樣去問了難道就是介入個案嗎我們說你們趕快加強查辦哇國人都好恐慌我好多家人住在台南事實上都覺得很恐怖是不是應該加強查辦這個個案發生本來講要關天職是嘛那我們去質詢你這樣算不算介入個案"},{"start":355.129,"end":355.309,"text":"陳玉珍"}]}},{"id":"154635","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154635","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8cf3af8f8d3f359d4ca0ece664f026f7b7bbd165341284486d6e6be9007d987755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:15:58 - 11:24:35","影片長度":"00:08:37","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:15:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:24:35+08:00","duration":517,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":582,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時16分）好，謝謝主席。有請主委。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委你好。我相信所有教育及文化委員會的委員都會非常在意一件事情，當我們在這邊討論這麼複雜，不管是所謂的再運轉、延役或是核廢料，對於一般國家的公民來說，我們其實在意的是安全這件事情，是您的主管，對吧？好，就您的專業角度來看，在相關的法條當中，剛剛有非常多的委員一直要你表態，我不要問表態，我想要就安全請您給我們建議，我想要問一個條文這樣寫適不適當？有一個委員的版本，他寫的是：「前項運轉執照有效期間為四十年，期滿須繼續運轉者，經營者得依主管機關規定申請換發執照。」他下面甚至寫：「主管機關不得以屆期時限拒絕換發申請。」您是主管機關，他這樣要求，請問我們怎麼看待行政跟立法之間的邏輯？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分，在一般法案很少規定自己主管的法律，不得來規範自己啦。"],["陳委員培瑜：對、對！我要講的是這個寫法，我怎麼看呢？身為在立法院工作也才一年半的一位立法委員來說，我實在是不懂這個背後的邏輯，確實如同您說的不得這樣寫嘛，對不對？而且還說「主管機關不得以屆期時限拒絕換發申請」，這是強逼你們欸！您可以接受這樣的寫法嗎？或者是在任何的法案上，我們可以這樣寫嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：應該是不行啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：應該是不行吧！對不對？就如同剛剛葉元之委員，他拿學輔法來舉例，我就先不要說他那一天在場對學輔法有沒有任何的關懷跟發言，我就不予置評，那一天從頭坐到尾的是我們民進黨所有教育及文化委員會的委員，還有國民黨的召委柯志恩主席，我就先不管他當天談了學輔法什麼關懷，但是就他剛剛一直要你表態這件事情，我想要請主委，我們絕對支持您的專業跟您背後所帶領的專家團隊來看待這個安全的議題，請問我這樣的論述是否合理？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委。我們再來看一下，今天所有人都在談核安或者是核廢料問題，我其實想要跟主委談一談，我可不可以有一個論述是這樣說的，我可不可以說沒有核安就沒有核電在運轉，這個論述是對的嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：完全正確。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，國人會問核安是什麼？我們來往下看一看，今天所有國民黨委員的版本裡面，他們說要把這個版本修完，我就問如果把這個版本修完，難道就可以解決所謂的核安疑慮嗎？我自己的觀點是不行的，但是在國民黨委員的版本裡面，他們不斷提出美國、法國、歐洲、日本，我相信他們手上的資料跟數據，主委一定是清楚的，但是我可不可以問一個事情，我們在搬移任何國家的相關經驗跟法規之前，要不要考慮臺灣的地理環境、人文、社會條件，剛剛葉元之委員自己也講了，還有我們目前核廢料貯存的問題，這些事情會不會有國情差異？"],["陳主任委員東陽：委員答得非常好了，這個問題講得非常好。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以如果有國情……"],["陳主任委員東陽：每一個國家都會視自己的情況做抉擇，包含德國是反核，到現在也是嘛！那麼臺灣有自己面臨的情況，有民意的問題、有核安的問題、有核廢料的問題，很多的面向需要大家來凝聚共識。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以如果像你說的我們有國情的問題，還有社會共識的問題，甚至可能還有科普教育的問題，因為每次只要談到相關議題，就會看到民間有非常多造謠的圖卡，光是就這件事情，我們其實就已經要花很多很多很多力氣溝通。","我們今天就來談第一個問題，難道美國真的沒有核廢料處理的問題跟老舊核電廠安全的疑慮嗎？就你手上有的專業報告，應該是有的吧！因為我手上有的資料滿滿的都有說明，其實美國自己也在面臨相關議題。就算剛剛葉元之委員他說美國已經把相關核電廠延役，但是我們實際上看到資料為什麼要延役？因為他們已經沒有相關的成本或資源再投入新建的核電廠，於是他們是不得不的情況下做了這個處理，我的論述是對的嗎？主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：正確。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果我們來看一下法國，法國目前其實他們的核電發電量也在下降，我手上有的這些資料，我們辦公室花了很多力氣，我們也討論，甚至法國還有反應爐老化的問題。回到臺灣，我們在相關的設備上，難道不用考慮這些事情嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：完全要考慮，安全還是所有的前提。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以安全只是一個概念，一旦討論到機組設置的問題、討論到核廢料，甚至考慮到人民的共識，這些都包含在所謂的核安安全底下對嗎？也就是安全兩個字看起來很廣泛，但是我們要討論這麼多的細節，而且這裡面還有很多細節，它是跟科學專業背景有關，對嗎？好，謝謝主委。","我們來往下看，今天還有委員的版本，他的寫法是這樣寫的，我也是看不懂啦！他說：「核電經營者應於執照有效期限屆滿前向主管機關申請換發執照；未取得換發執照前，不得繼續運轉，但經主管機關確認核子反應設施安全無虞時，得繼續運轉。」這個主管機關又是你耶！主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，這個部分我核安會不敢承擔啦！這個責任太重大了。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，如果像您說的這個責任重大，那我們就必須要把所有的事情一併拿起來考慮，不是嗎？好，還有剛剛葉元之委員自己一再提到核廢料貯存的問題，那我就說，在跟地方縣市政府的溝通，其實這個要不要發照的權力在他們身上，對嗎？好，我相信你們在過往跟地方政府的溝通上，一定也是花了很多時間、做了很多的討論，甚至開了很多的會。但是就您在任內，您所認為在跟地方政府溝通上，我們最大的困境是不是就是您剛剛說的民意？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是，民意的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們來看一下民意，大家都知道，我過去十幾年住在花蓮，在花蓮也開過書店，我們來談一下核廢料。去年10月曾經有民眾投書說，台電內定在宜蘭南澳跟花蓮秀林交界處作為高放處置場，後來你們有所澄清，其實這不是民眾第一次，我們剛剛一直在談民意這件事情，不是民眾第一次對於相關事情有疑慮喔！在傅崐萁總召12年前擔任花蓮縣長的時候，新聞非常多，他說原能會跟台電不要亂倒核廢料，成為歷史罪人，否則他將率領原住民北上出草抗爭，這是他當時在擔任縣長時的說法。時隔12年，關於核廢料這件事情，我們是不是還有很多內容跟議題需要討論，長路漫漫？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，到目前沒辦法解決。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果到目前沒有辦法解決，我的時間有限，我最後就問，我們修完今天所有的版本之後就可以解決嗎？主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：問題還是存在。"],["陳委員培瑜：對嘛！我相信您的法學素養跟我的法學素養，我怎麼看起來這些版本完全沒有辦法解決，連傅崐萁總召自己也沒有辦法解決，所以我想在今天這個議題上，我們確實有待商榷、有待討論的地方還非常非常多，對嗎？主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：甚至跟我們的國家公民要溝通的內容也還非常多，我想這條路上我們一起努力，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝主委，謝謝陳培瑜委員。","接下來是吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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.737,"end":209.883,"text":"但是在國民黨委員的版本裡面他們不斷提出美國、法國、歐洲、日本我相信他們手上的資料跟數據主委你一定是清楚的但是我可不可以問一個事情我們在搬移任何國家的相關經驗跟法規之前我們要不要考慮台灣的地理環境、人文社會條件還有我們目前"},{"start":211.043,"end":233.297,"text":"剛剛葉元志委員這集也講了核廢料儲存的問題,這些事情它會不會有國情差異?委員答得非常好啦,這問題講得非常好。所以如果有國情,是。國家都會試自己的情況,做抉擇,那包含德國,那麼它是反核,到現在也是。"},{"start":234.378,"end":250.372,"text":"那麼台灣有自己面臨的情況那麼有民意的問題有核安的問題有核廢料的問題那很多的面向需要大家來凝聚共識好,所以如果你說的我們有國情的問題我們還有社會共識的問題甚至我們可能還有科普教育的問題因為每次只要談到相關議題我們就會看到有民間非常多造謠的圖卡"},{"start":261.261,"end":270.125,"text":"光是就這件事情我們其實就已經花很多很多很多力氣溝通我們今天就來談第一個問題難道美國真的沒有核廢料處理的問題跟老舊核電廠安全的疑慮嗎就你手上有的專業報告應該是有的吧因為我手上有的資料其實滿滿的都有說明其實美國自己也在面臨相關議題就算剛剛葉元芝委員他說美國已經把相關核電廠研議但是我們實際上看到資料為什麼要研議"},{"start":289.733,"end":303.829,"text":"因為他們已經沒有相關的成本或資源再投入興建新的核電廠。於是他們是不得不的情況下做了這個處理。我的論述是對的嗎?主委。正確。好。那如果我們來看一下法國。"},{"start":304.65,"end":319.676,"text":"法國目前其實他們的核電發電量也在下降我手上有這些資料我們辦公室花了很多力氣我們也討論甚至法國還有反應爐老化的問題回到台灣我們在相關的設備上難道不用考慮這些事情嗎"},{"start":322.118,"end":347.583,"text":"完全要考慮啦,那安全還是所有的前提。好,所以我們安全只是一個概念,一旦我討論到機組設置的問題,我討論核廢料,我甚至考慮到人民的共識,這些都包含在所謂的核安全底下,對嗎?也就是安全兩個字看起來很廣泛,但是我們要討論這麼多的細節,而且這裡面還有很多細節,它是跟科學專業背景有關,對嗎?"},{"start":349.636,"end":371.445,"text":"好,謝謝主委,那我們來往下看。在今天還有委員的版本,他的寫法是這樣寫的,我也是看不到啦。他說,這個,核電經營者因於執照有效期限借滿錢向主管機關申請換發執照,未取得換發執照之前不得繼續運轉,但經主管機關確認核子反應設施安全無虞時,得繼續運轉。"},{"start":374.214,"end":398.549,"text":"這個主管機關又是你了,諸位。是的,這個部分我核安會不敢承擔,這個責任太重大了。是,那如果您說的這個責任重大,那我們就必須要把所有的事情一併拿起來考慮,不是嗎?好,還有剛剛議員之委員自己一再提到核廢料儲存的問題,那我就說,在跟地方縣市政府的溝通,其實這個要不要發照的權利在他們身上,對嗎?"},{"start":400.307,"end":413.186,"text":"我相信你們在過往跟地方政府的溝通上一定也是花了很多時間花了很多的討論甚至開了很多的會但是就您在任內你所認為在跟地方政府溝通上我們最大的困境是不是就是您剛說的民意"},{"start":416.317,"end":440.649,"text":"是民意的問題是民意的問題我們來看一下民意大家都知道我過去十幾年住在花蓮在花蓮開過書店我們來談一下核廢料我們來往下看去年11月曾經有民眾投書說台電內定在宜蘭南澳跟花蓮秀林交觸界作為高放處置場後來你們有所澄清我們再往下看過往其實這不是民眾第一次我們剛剛一直在談民意這件事情"},{"start":441.149,"end":469.346,"text":"不是民眾第一次對於相關事情有疑慮在傅坤祺總召12年前擔任花蓮縣長的時候新聞非常多他說當時是原能會跟台電不要亂倒核廢料成為歷史罪人否則他將率領原住民北上出草抗爭這是他當時在擔任縣長的時候的說法時隔12年關於核廢料這件事情我們是不是還有很多內容跟議題需要討論長路漫漫"},{"start":472.065,"end":498.294,"text":"是的,到目前沒有辦法解決。好,如果到目前沒有辦法解決,我就最後問,我的時間有限。我們修完今天所有的版本之後,就可以解決嗎?主委。問題還是存在的。對嘛,我相信您的法學素養跟我的法學素養,我怎麼看起來這些版本完全沒有辦法解決。連富昆奇總召自己也沒有辦法解決。所以我想在今天這個議題上,我們確實有待商榷,有待討論的地方還非常非常多,對嗎?主委。是的。"},{"start":500.62,"end":513.901,"text":"甚至跟我們的國家公民要溝通的內容也還非常多。我想這條路上我們一起努力好嗎?好,謝謝主委,謝謝主席。好,謝謝,謝謝主委,謝謝陳佩玉委員。接下來是吳佩奕委員。"}]}},{"id":"154634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154634","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8acd7bc8d552dc51ea9bb3959728069a07bbd16534128448604f3c95b4c290d315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"11:04:52 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11:17:31","影片長度":"00:12:39","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:04:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:17:31+08:00","duration":759,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":500,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（11時4分）主席好。有請顧部長及整評司苗司長。"],["主席：請部長、苗司長。"],["陳委員永康：部長好、司長好。"],["顧部長立雄：是，陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：回到今天報告的主題我們是絕對支持國防自主，根據國防法第二十二條規定，自主研發為國軍獲得武器裝備優先策略。今天講到新成立的在整評司之下的DIU這個單位，根據你的報告內容，我們從前提、原則、目標、方法、手段，提出一個建議重點就是，國防產業供應鏈透過廠商資格與級別認證，尤其是DD要確實，以及保密協定，甚至在解約以後，他能不能把我們共同研發的成果拿去外銷或轉到其他地方，這個在我們的所謂簽署協定、協約裡都要律定清楚也就是說，我們信得過這些廠商，才能確實跟中科院完整的合作。","另外一個建議，國防產業鏈的關鍵單位必須要全程參與，我講關鍵技術，並不是因為民間有了我就不要我們很怕未來發生產業出走，可能會脫鉤斷鏈，那中科院這中間就會產生一個gap，所以我們合作的構想，以美軍所講的，第一個是adaptable可運用的；第二個是accountable可信任的；第三個是affordable可負擔的，在這三個前提下，我們來支持這個DIU的作法。過去在2019年，當時的科技部，現在的國科會，跟國防部成立一個5年50億的技術領域學研中心，包括臺大、清大、交大、成大、中興、中山等，這裡面有很多就是參與所謂無人系統，包括無人機、水下的等，還有一些反制的東西，這裡面就涉及到了很多通訊裝備，所以我的建議是，在這個新單位成立以後，可以由整評司或中科院同時邀請這7所國立大學學研中心共同來參與，提供他們過去這3年到4年研發的結果，用這個經驗，以他們作為民間廠商的對口，比較方便。剛剛前面陳冠廷委員也提到說要用民間的話來講話，我現在是擔心民間廠商講的話，中科院在他們的規格書面上不見得聽得懂，所以會有認知的落差，而不是誰對誰錯所以用這個新成立的單位來召集會議，把7所國立大學的學研中心，他們都是國防學研中心，都有涉及到水下、水上、地面無人機，包括通訊裝備，這是一個很好的平臺。","另外，我們借重美國成功的經驗及成功因素，但美國的成功因素並不代表完全適合我們，所以我們應該怎麼做呢？創新小組創新新概念，要戰力、發展相輔相成，軍民科技合一、創新運用，最主要就是中科院跟民間現在要有一個對口單位，當然，我建議在整評司底下的新成立人員，必須要有幾個有工程背景，甚至在實驗室做過，因為TRL3幾乎是實驗室過程，而民間發展技術很快，很多都是外面導入的，現在的無人機系統是一個主流趨勢，我們講的無人，包括空中的、地面的、水下的，甚至這些國立大學買了無人系統在做學研，他們還要向數發部，就是以前的NCC申請頻道、頻寬，我也曾經跟這些無人機的製造廠商參加研討會，他們交給國軍的是載臺，尤其是數量很大的這種輕型載臺，基本上是消耗型的，這個就是在戰時避免操作手在第一線，你的偵查排，甚至搜索班都不要出去了，無人會把畫面傳回來。至於剛剛講的AI技術，當然我們講說man in the loop、under the loop、out of the loop，AI要結合ROE，這要授權，也要double check。俄烏戰爭用無人機非常方便，城市相距30里、100里，不是烏克蘭就是俄國，看了就打，但是以哈戰爭你就發現無人機的效益沒那麼大了，雖然導入AI，在一個大樓裡面有哈瑪斯兩個人，對不起，以色列的炸彈、飛彈就打了，40個老百姓一起死，這個時候AI的效益就不太容易發揮。我們的防衛作戰希望能夠拒止在海岸線以外，所以中科院所發展出來或者美方所提供中長程做預警的這個效益是很大，但是屬於這種消耗型的、國產型的，當然它的成本會比中科院低，我們也接受這個。我這邊提出建議，包括所有的廠商都提出了，它提供你的是載台、載具、通訊頻道頻寬、傳輸速度，聯六通資次長室、資通電軍、數發部及NCC要去談我們的國軍能夠獲得多少頻寬、多少頻道，如果在戰時我們國內一般民間的通訊，比方講中華電信如果中斷了，誰來提供補充？即便我們跟英國的oneweb簽了，有七百個地面站或是三個國外臺，但是能夠分給國軍使用的有多少？在這邊不必講細部，但一定要提早定義，就是說你有這麼多的載台，並不代表這麼多載台可以同步使用，因為你的頻率控制台受限。另外一個是民用、商用、商規軍用，不同的廠商交出來的準則校範一定要標準化，這個東西是必須要統一的，不然我們沒有實驗編裝，你這些小東西都是給營級以下的操作手及單位，人員不會在前線犧牲，但是這些東西如果要回送（feedback）到上一層或者上兩層讓長官去看，它的判斷是不一樣的。所以共同圖像、通訊頻道頻寬、無人載台的整合是我們發展很重要的過程及手段，這個要提早作業。","剛才整評司並沒有講TRL裡面的分工，我們可以把裡面的細節分工圖提供做參考，不是光說1、2、3、4到9做水平切割，這裡面有很多是有重疊性質的。我想一個新成立的單位，它除了有專案管理、合約管理，最主要就是要有實驗室讓做過、有這種經驗的人一起參與計畫、提供參考。最後的具體建議，我們TRL是做國防科技驗證的門檻，檢視民間公司的技術或專利實況；至於能不能跟中科院做完整的整合？這個我們還要摸索。中科院過去有很多的計畫，承擔了很大的責任，但不是中科院的責任，而是因為軍種跟中科院簽的是Agreement、MOU，並不代表它的需要改變了，結果中科院前面三、五年的研究成果就白做了、就重新另起需求，這個將來都要定義清楚。中科院過去的三彈一機關鍵開發系統整合經驗，我相信在DIU的指導下，將民間專業導入系統開發會促成國防自主的發展。關鍵技術發展從來沒有一帆風順，一定要接受失敗，而且要有重置性，絕對不是水平劃線切割，我把這個東西提供參考，下面請部長或是整評司司長來回答一下。"],["顧部長立雄：我請中科院來回答。"],["李院長世強：跟委員報告，您剛剛講到TRL備便水準，未來中科院和DIU中間最重疊的部分在TRL6。當DIU引進一個新技術，中科院在現有關鍵技術的備便水準之上，我必須按TRL6發展出來我的原型模型，這個原型模型展示給軍種看，讓軍種去確認是不是符合它的作戰需求，如果符合的話，我們再進入工程發展7到9的階段。但是就像我剛剛講的，就算在進入工程發展7和8的時候有新的技術，我就會不斷地去修正我的原型模型，大概未來我們跟DIU的介接會在TRL6的部分。"],["陳委員永康：過去因為有些美方技術不轉移、不輸出，或是這個武器根本不賣，所以中科院等於是從基礎開始研發，但這個累積的成果不要中斷掉，能夠由美國提供，不管是軍售、商售或者是國內廠商有這個能力，縮短研發時間、儘速整合，這個我們是支持的，但是人才的培養還是很重要。我特別要建議，尤其是在DIU裡面對專案管理還要加上一部分有科技背景、做過實驗室的，他不必做主官，他提供一個客觀的建言是比較重要的。我相信今天在座當中在美國實驗室待過的可能沒有人在場，要瞭解到怎麼樣把實驗室的概念轉換到變成一個可製造、可整合，最後變成可以交出（deliverable）的貨，而且這個東西還是初期產品，就像你剛剛講的，這是要不斷升級的。"],["李院長世強：再回應委員的意見。我上禮拜花了一個禮拜的時間，從中科院所有的研發人員裡面挑了兩個人，一個是無人機的，一個是AI的，這兩個都是年輕的工程師，都有博士學位，是中科院未來研發很核心的關鍵的年輕人，這兩個人支援到DIU，就是要協助DIU有相關的工程背景一起去審視現有的技術。"],["陳委員永康：補充一下，針對現在七個國立大學的學研中心，禮拜一前經濟部長李世光召集會議還在談，他們研發的成果不要跟我們做平行浪費掉了，整評司或中科院可以請學研中心把他們的研發成果導入一起來support你們，配合國內產業的技術，這樣做整合可以更節省時間。"],["顧部長立雄：有，雖然學研中心的預算比較不多，但是我們將學研中心的發展納入這個平臺是沒有問題的。"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，由我們的國科會配合剛剛委員所指導的七大學研中心，我們一年都編10億，我們也會遵從委員的指導，把學研中心的研究成果整合到我們DIU平臺系統裡面來統一運用，以上報告。"],["陳委員永康：因為DIU這個整合非常重要，本席在這邊也予以支持，同時我們也提出一個建議，就是希望在這個案子整合人才培養，看到國內工合及科技整合的進展，我們希望整評司每三個月來提報一次。"],["苗司長惠芬：是，謝謝委員指導，我們未來三個月就去做一次提報。我們的創新小組一定是希望能夠引進民間的成熟科技，在軍事領域做創新的運用。針對這個部分，您剛才指導有關於在過程當中能夠引進有相關工程背景、科技背景，還有法律專業的這些人才，我們都會納入一起來提供我們做相關的參考和諮詢，以上。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請洪申翰委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林楚茵","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革\n新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學\n及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3.2034687500000003,"end":3.7772187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.16534375,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7.709093750000001,"end":8.654093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.902843750000002,"end":10.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.792843750000003,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.277843750000002,"end":14.239718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.239718750000002,"end":14.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.982218750000001,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.59346875,"end":19.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.53409375,"end":23.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.976593750000003,"end":29.528468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.950343750000002,"end":32.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.81909375,"end":42.572843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.315343750000004,"end":50.875343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.48284375,"end":60.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.219718750000006,"end":62.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.98721875000001,"end":65.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.06284375,"end":67.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.00346875000001,"end":74.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.53409375000001,"end":79.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.59659375000001,"end":82.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.52846875,"end":85.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.78971875,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.03409375000001,"end":88.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.51909375000001,"end":92.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.56909375000001,"end":95.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.35784375,"end":97.93971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.73284375,"end":99.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.62721875000001,"end":100.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.19659375,"end":101.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.14159375000001,"end":102.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.40721875000001,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.25096875000001,"end":106.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.78221875000001,"end":111.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.26659375000001,"end":140.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.78534375,"end":144.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.71721875,"end":148.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.39159375,"end":154.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.50034375,"end":163.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.53284375,"end":174.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.50159375,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.51971875,"end":211.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.72784375,"end":218.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.64659375000002,"end":232.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.63596875000002,"end":240.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.73596875,"end":252.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.18971875000003,"end":255.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.83909375000002,"end":262.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.34846875,"end":267.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.63471875,"end":278.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":278.26596875,"end":280.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.93221875,"end":283.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.68284375,"end":287.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.66534375000003,"end":289.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.18409375000005,"end":298.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.97159375,"end":331.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.75971875000005,"end":334.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":334.93221875,"end":339.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.62346875000003,"end":349.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.96784375000004,"end":352.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.92096875000004,"end":354.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.70534375,"end":358.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.54034375000003,"end":360.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.95346875,"end":382.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":383.02596875,"end":395.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","sta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in the loop, on the loop, out of the loopAI要結合ROE"},{"start":281.013,"end":281.173,"text":"陳永康"},{"start":299.088,"end":325.976,"text":"在一個大樓裡面有哈馬斯兩個人以色列對不起就炸彈飛彈打了40個老百姓一起死這個時候AI的效益就不太容易發揮那我們防衛作戰我們希望在拒止在海岸線以外所以在中科院發展出來的或是美方提供的中長城的做預警這個效益是很大但是屬於這種消耗型的國產型的當然它的成本會比中科院低我們也接受這個"},{"start":326.656,"end":348.429,"text":"我這邊提出建議的．所有的廠商都提出了．他提供你的是載台載具．通訊頻道頻寬．傳輸速度．我們聯六啊．通知次長室跟這個支通電軍．還有這個所謂的速發部啊．NCC啊．要去談我國軍能夠獲得多少頻寬．多少頻道．如果在暫時．"},{"start":350.031,"end":366.529,"text":"我們國內的一般民間的通訊的比方講中華電信如果中斷了誰來提供這個補充即便我們跟這個英國的OneWeb簽了有700個地面站或是三個國外台但是能夠分給國軍使用的"},{"start":367.17,"end":394.84,"text":"在這邊不必講細部一定要提早定義就是說你有這麼多載台並不代表這麼多載台可以同步使用因為你的頻率控制台受限另外一個就是民用、商用、商規軍用不同的廠商交出來的準則教範一定要標準化這個東西是必須要統一的不然我們沒有實驗編裝你這些小東西都是給營機下的操作手續單位"},{"start":396.414,"end":417.042,"text":"人員不會在前線犧牲但是你如果要這些東西要回送feedback到上一層或者上兩層長官去看他的判斷是不一樣的所以共同圖像、通訊頻道評判跟無人載胎的整合是我們發展一個很重要的一個過程跟手段這個要提早作業"},{"start":419.65,"end":419.77,"text":"陳永康"},{"start":437.458,"end":463.884,"text":"我想在一個新成立單位他除了有專案管理這個合約管理最主要就是要有實驗室做過這種經驗的人一起參與這個計劃提供參考那麼最後的具體建議我們TRL是做國防科技驗證的門檻檢視民間公司的技術或專利實況那至於能不能跟中科院做完整的整合這個我們還要有摸索中科院有很多過去的計劃"},{"start":464.804,"end":465.125,"text":"陳永康 陳永康"},{"start":472.202,"end":494.957,"text":"MOU．並不代表做需要改變．結果中科院前面這個時間．三、五年的研究成果就白做了．就重新另起需求．這個將來都要定義清苦．那中科院過去在三彈一金．關鍵開發系統整合經驗．我相信在DIU的指導下．將民間專業導入系統開發．會促成國防自主的發展．"},{"start":496.228,"end":512.757,"text":"關鍵技術發展從來沒有說一帆風順一定要接受失敗而且要有重置性絕對不是水平啊就是說劃線切割我把這個東西提供參考下面請這個部長或者是整平師長您來回答一下或中科院來回答一下"},{"start":514.175,"end":542.471,"text":"跟委員報告,您剛剛講到TIL備變水準未來中科院和DIU中間最重疊的部分在TIL6當DIU引進一個新技術中科院在現有的關鍵技術的備變水準之上我必須按TIL6去發展出來我的原型模型這個原型模型展示給軍種看讓軍種去確認是不是符合他的作戰需求如果符合的話我們再進入工程發展的7到9的階段但是就像我剛剛講的"},{"start":543.351,"end":554.023,"text":"就算在進入工程發展7和8的時候有新的技術我就會不斷的去修正我的原型模型大概未來我們跟DIU的借階會在TIL6的部分"},{"start":556.084,"end":575.564,"text":"過去因為是有些美方技術不轉移不輸出或這個武器根本不賣所以中科院等於說從基礎開始研發但這個累積的成果不要中斷掉那麼能夠美國提供不管是軍售商售或者我們國內廠商有這個能力縮短這個研發時間進速整合這是我們是支持的"},{"start":576.705,"end":600.681,"text":"人才培養還是很重要我特別要建議那尤其是在DIU裡面對專案管理還要加上一部分有科技背景做過實驗室的那可以他不必做主觀他提供一個客觀的這個建言這個是比較重要我相信我們今天在座裡面在美國實驗室待過的可能今天可能沒有人在場要了解到這個怎麼樣把實驗室的概念轉換到"},{"start":602.233,"end":602.613,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康"},{"start":613.945,"end":636.032,"text":"再回應委員的意見就是我上禮拜花了一個禮拜的時間從中科院所有的研發人員裡面挑了兩個人一個是無人機的一個是AI的這兩個都是年輕的工程師都有博士的學位也是我們中科院未來研發很核心的關鍵的年輕人那我這兩個人支援到DIU就是要協助DIU有相關的工程背景去一起去審視現有的技術"},{"start":639.075,"end":663.877,"text":"因為現在七個國立大學的學研中心禮拜一才李世光前經濟部長他在召集會議還在談他們研發的成果不要跟我們做平行浪費掉了那麼整評師或中科院可以請他們一起學研的中心把他們的研發成果導入就來support你那配合國內的產業的技術這樣做整合可以更節省時間"},{"start":664.978,"end":691.346,"text":"有有,學研中心的預算比較不多,但是我們對學研中心的發展,我們納入這個平台是沒有問題的,因為正美。跟委員報告,我們由我們的國科會配合剛剛委員所指導的七大學研中心,我們一年都編十億,我們跟國科會跟學研中心,那我們會遵從委員的指導,把學研中心的他們研究的成果打入我們"},{"start":698.408,"end":716.514,"text":"因為DIU這個整合是非常重要本席但在這邊也支持我們也提出一個建議就是說希望在這個案子整合人才培養看到這個整個這個國內工合還有科技整合的進展我們希望這個整平市每三個月來做一個提報"},{"start":720.925,"end":746.037,"text":"委員指導就是我們未來三個月就跟您去做一次提報那我們的創新小組一定就是希望能夠引進民間的成熟科技在軍事領域做創新的運用那在這個部分您剛才指導的有關於在過程當中能夠引進有一些相關工程背景、科技背景還有法律專業的這些人才我們都會納入一起來提供我們做相關的參考和諮詢以上謝謝,謝謝部長"},{"start":752.879,"end":756.082,"text":"謝謝接下來請洪森漢委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154633","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154633","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f860a58c000d54b671a39103cf15d5982f7bbd165341284486753ba3a61f17f3475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"11:11:37 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Spending）問題；第三個，女巫攻擊（Sybil Attack）。請問，我們的CBDC採用的DLT技術是不是都可以解決這3個問題了？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個是技術的問題，是不是請我們的同事來……"],["葛委員如鈞：請。能不能解決？是不是已經解決了？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，這些問題我們都有在關注，也都在解決，事實上像拜占庭將軍的問題，其實我們現在用的鏈不會有這個問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：不會有這個問題，然後後面兩個咧？Double Spending跟Sybil Attack呢？"],["林董事長國良：Double Spending當然也不會有這種問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：那下面呢？"],["林董事長國良：下面的其實我們還在研究，原則上也不會有這個問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我希望接下來我們一定要非常注意安全性的問題。另外，本席也要請教民眾最擔心的隱私問題。根據央行的問題調查，高達45.2%的民眾對於CBDC留下交易紀錄感到有一些擔憂，隱私應該非常地重要，但是央行7月1日提供給財委會的考察報告卻提到，開立不記名錢包需要提供手機號碼。請問總裁，對於開立不記名錢包要求需要提供手機號碼的理由到底是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：讓我們同事來回答。"],["謝參事鳳瑛：首先，不記名錢包的意思是可能它是不做KYC的，跟記名的錢包區分開來。為什麼要手機號碼？因為我們也很怕如果沒有手機號碼，他可能會開好多個錢包，來做詐騙車手的錢包，所以他們給我們號碼之後，我們會透過中介機構去發一個OTP，再回過頭來檢驗這個手機號碼的有效性，如果有效就給一個錢包，但是送到、傳到央行的部分就已經是去識別化、雜湊式亂碼的號碼。"],["葛委員如鈞：你們是用哪一個技術？誰提供的服務可以做到這樣子？你讓他提供手機號碼，你又說是隱私、匿名，你們用誰的技術？"],["謝參事鳳瑛：我們有開發一個標準的規格、一個標準……"],["葛委員如鈞：是你們開發的，還是誰開發的？"],["謝參事鳳瑛：我們開發……"],["葛委員如鈞：你們開發的，是你們自己的技術，當然就有可能留下這些資料啊。"],["謝參事鳳瑛：對，但是我由中介機構留下手機號碼……"],["葛委員如鈞：這樣怎麼叫做不記名呢？"],["謝參事鳳瑛：不是，是不做KYC。"],["葛委員如鈞：而且您剛剛提到防止……所以一個叫做要有KYC，一個叫做要留下手機號碼，這哪叫做不記名？這哪叫做隱私呢？沒關係，我今天時間有限。你說是為了防止大量開立不記名錢包，為了防詐，擔心大家用來詐騙，難道以後為了防止車禍，就不要讓大家開車？為了防止大家接到詐騙簡訊，就不要收簡訊？這種被動、消極的方法，我覺得真的不是最好的。","總裁，我想提醒，民眾的自由和隱私是最珍貴的，不管哪個政黨，我們都要全力去保障民眾……不好意思，我時間有限，我不想占大家太多時間。民眾有自由可以選擇用隱私的方式花錢，如果我們要用技術的方式去處理民眾的隱私，需要增加成本，央行就編列預算去執行，不要因噎廢食。","最後，我提到一個技術的問題。不好意思，主席，再跟您借一點點時間，謝謝。根據你們提出來的，尤其我訪查的時候，你們說TPS只有10，不太夠用，但是現在的技術隨著4年的時間已經過去了，乙太坊已經達到TPS 60，L2、L3擴容可以達到240，Solana可以到平均值2000。我真的要問央行對於DLT技術的應用，你們究竟採用什麼共識演算法？你們採用的技術到底跟哪一個國家是一樣的？我從所有的報告裡面完全看不出來，是技術黑箱，可不可以簡要說明？我已經幫你們整理了，會後我會提供給你們。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，可以。"],["葛委員如鈞：不是，我說你們用的技術跟哪一個國家一樣？到底是什麼演算法？什麼DLT？是R3還是Hyperledger？全部沒看到啊！"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，其實這個專案從2019年就開始了，所以技術是不斷地在演進，我們在試驗的過程裡面也不斷地在嘗試各種的技術，譬如我們之前有用過Quorum，也有用過Corda，也有用Hyperledger的Fabric……"],["葛委員如鈞：現在是什麼？"],["林董事長國良：目前是在用Hyperledger的Besu。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，那為什麼報告裡都沒有提到？"],["林董事長國良：因為這個比較細節。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，未來我們辦公室會跟你們做一些討論，希望我們能做一些技術交流，確保我們的技術CBDC是領先全球，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢。","接著我們請賴惠員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.13221875,"end":1.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.978468750000001,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.931593750000001,"end":15.404093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.404093750000001,"end":15.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.42096875,"end":15.606593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.606593750000002,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.68159375,"end":21.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.69846875,"end":22.778468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.91346875,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.17909375,"end":24.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.97221875,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.69409375,"end":50.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.36471875,"end":77.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.28034375,"end":80.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.98034375,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.64471875000001,"end":111.01784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.01784375000001,"end":125.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.23159375,"end":120.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.19284375000001,"end":128.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.32721875000001,"end":130.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.32721875000001,"end":131.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.25096875,"end":142.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.15221875,"end":144.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.76784375,"end":149.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.47159375,"end":150.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.48846875,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.75409375,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.03221875,"end":157.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.16721875000002,"end":155.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.72346875000002,"end":165.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.13659375,"end":163.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.74346875,"end":170.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.67096875000001,"end":171.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.46409375000002,"end":181.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.56909375,"end":174.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.78846875000002,"end":175.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.29784375,"end":183.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.91784375,"end":188.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.76096875000002,"end":194.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.40971875000002,"end":195.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.44346875000002,"end":197.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.13909375,"end":215.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.89596875,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.03409375,"end":250.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.02971875000003,"end":256.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.39159375,"end":259.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.20534375,"end":268.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.57971875000004,"end":276.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.59534375000004,"end":278.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.10971875,"end":293.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.96846875,"end":294.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.46159375,"end":301.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.41846875000005,"end":302.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.97096875,"end":306.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.23221875,"end":311.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.25721875,"end":307.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.712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Spending 跟 Spare Tech 呢?Double Spending 當然也不會有這種問題啦。"},{"start":215.93,"end":219.753,"text":"接下來我們一定要非常注意我們的安全性的問題另外本席也要請教民眾最擔心的隱私問題"},{"start":231.761,"end":258.976,"text":"根據央行的問卷調查高達45.2%的民眾對於CPTC留下交易記錄感到有些擔憂隱私應該要非常的重要但是根據央行7月1日提供給財委會的考察報告卻提到開立不記名錢包需要提供手機號碼請問總裁對於開立不記名錢包要求需要提供手機號碼的理由到底是什麼?好那我總署來回答"},{"start":261.28,"end":289.199,"text":"首先不記名錢包的意思是跟他是不做KYC的跟記名區塊來那為什麼要手機號碼因為我們也很怕說如果沒有手機號碼他可能會開好多個錢包然後做一個詐騙的一個車手的錢包所以他們給我們號碼之後我們會去透過中介機構他去畫一個OTP再回過頭來檢印這個手機是有效性的就給一個錢包但是受到傳到央行的部分是已經是去識別化雜錯數的亂碼的"},{"start":292.041,"end":303.852,"text":"你們是用哪一個技術?誰提供的服務?可以做到這樣子?你讓他提供手機,然後你又說是隱私、匿名。你們用誰的技術?是你們開發的還是誰開發的?你們開發的,你們自己的技術,你們當然就有可能留下這些資料啊。"},{"start":312.001,"end":326.469,"text":"對,但是我就說是中介機構留下手機號碼來的。那這樣怎麼叫做不記名呢?而且您剛剛提到房子,你說房子,所以你一個叫做要KYC,一個叫做要留下手機號碼,這哪叫做不記名,這哪叫做隱私呢?"},{"start":327.449,"end":328.79,"text":"總裁,我想提醒民眾的自由和隱私是最珍貴的。不管哪個政黨,我們都要全力去保護"},{"start":355.395,"end":368.504,"text":"民眾有自由可以選擇他用隱私的方式花錢如果我們要用技術的方式去處理他的隱私要增加的成本央行就編列相關的預算去執行不要去因約廢時"},{"start":370.285,"end":387.823,"text":"最後我提到一個技術的問題不好意思主席再跟您借一點點時間謝謝根據你們提出來的尤其我訪查的時候你們說TPS只有10不太夠用但是呢現在的這個技術4年的時間已經過去了以太坊已達到TPS60"},{"start":389.204,"end":417.736,"text":"好,L2、L3擴容可以達到240,索拉納可以到平均值2000我真的是要問鄉行對於DLT技術的應用你們究竟採用什麼共識演算法你們採用的技術到底跟哪一個國家是一樣的我從所有的報告裡面完全看不出來是技術黑箱,可不可以解藥說明我已經幫你們整理了,會後我會提供給你們好,可以啊不是我說,你們用的技術跟哪一個國家一樣"},{"start":418.973,"end":448.119,"text":"到底是什麼演算法?什麼DLT?是R3還是Hyperledger全部沒看到嗎?跟委員報告就是說其實這個專案從2019年就開始了所以技術是不斷的在演進那我們在這個試驗的過程裡面也不斷的在嘗試各種的技術譬如說我們之前有用過Colon那也有用過Coda也有用Hyperledger的Fabric目前是在用Hyperledger的Basso"},{"start":449.368,"end":462.941,"text":"為什麼報告你都沒提到?因為這個比較細節啦。歡迎我們,希望未來我們辦公室會跟你們來做一些討論,希望我們能做一些技術交流,確保我們的技術CBDC是領先全球好不好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154632","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154632","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8803980a0f15e73222652beeb573fd6de7bbd165341284486f7d8ca10ff378d0f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:02:58 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11:17:45","影片長度":"00:14:47","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會、財政部率所屬相關單位列席就「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:02:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:17:45+08:00","duration":887,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":36,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-36"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":595,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時3分）謝謝。我們的召委好像請智強委員代理。"],["主席：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：那蠻可惜！我今天其實想跟召委做一些意見的交換。今天對於本屆司法委員會的很多會議也到了會期末，我要表達一些我的觀察，也就是做為立法委員都要自制，更何況我們是在司法及法制委員會，政治力都不應當介入個案、不應當影響司法，政治力不要干預司法。可能從今天上午司法及法制委員會的詢答我們看得出來，都針對某些個案來進行很多未審先判或者是政治操作，又或者帶有要用政治力來影響司法的意圖。這個會期以來，這不是第一次，我們看到在野黨的委員，不論是從楊文科案、高虹安案，到現在鄭文燦案，都不斷地利用立法委員的詢答時間來進行很多影響跟干預司法的作為，我深表遺憾！","第二個，今天專案報告，我大概當立委9年了，我第一次質詢不曉得要請誰上臺，我也不打算請任何一個部門上臺，因為我認為召委排的這個案子就像我們國會擴權法案的反質詢一樣，定義不清啊！今天的專案報告題目到底是要講什麼，沒有人可以搞清楚，沒有人可以清楚地知道召委排案真切的目的，但是若以剛剛林思銘書記長所垂詢的事項，我恍然大悟，喔！又是針對某一個地方政府的個案，也就是基隆市府東岸廣場的個案想要做一些政治上的操作。專案報告題目意義定義不明，假探討之名來行護航之實，是這樣嗎？我不樂見，也不希望。好，所以我今天在這裡表示我的立場，我也不會請任何一個官員上臺。","就今天的主題是「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探討與改善」，我們讀過研究所、讀過博士班的人都知道任何一個論文的命題下面會有以什麼什麼個案為例，所以我實在不知道今天召委就這樣一個法制面，他想要探討跟釐清的爭議在哪裡，如果就法規面有非常清楚的促參法規可以來依循，所以這是不是一個政治命題，甚或是一個私設刑堂呢？我不知道，我也希望不是。","委員會的職權傻傻分不清嗎？立法院相關8個委員會的分工，司法及法制很清楚對於司法院、對於法務部、對於人事總處等有我們督導的職權，如果是要去關心促進民間參與公共建設，促參法規範的主管機關是財政部，這是促參法的明定，所以說如果是財政部主管的法律，那可以去財政委員會審議。所以今天在司法及法制委員會到底要審議、瞭解什麼執行的爭議，我也真的不瞭解，吳宗憲召委不在，我沒有辦法獲得他本人的釐清。","我試著去理解如果要講促參，促參90年大修之後，我們確實依新的促參法的法律授權，在全臺灣推動很多，不管中央政府或地方政府的促參案件。以91年促參法大修到現在113年的統計，全臺灣的促參案達到1,661件，所吸引帶動的民間投資額達到1兆38億元，這是我們努力的成果。所以我們企圖用這樣一個法律的賦權來增加政府的稅收、來增加民間企業投入，然後一起達到政府、民間、企業三贏的局面，這是促參法讓公共建設及公共服務可以升級，我這裡秀出來的是華山文創，還有宜蘭傳藝中心，都是我過去在教育及文化領域長期會去關心的促參相關案例。","財政部在促參法大修之後，同年91年金擘獎也上路了，司長在場，我沒有請您上臺，金擘獎嘛！金擘獎就是要肯定中央或地方政府促參的好的時機、成績，如果以2017年金擘獎的得獎名單來看，有臺大醫院美食街的促參案，它是優等；梨山賓館的營運也獲得優等；然後墾丁賓館的營運也獲得優等。而這三個金擘獎的得主都獲得續約的機會，因為它是執行良好而且得冠軍喔！它續約了，但是同一年一起得到金擘獎肯定的也有基隆市東岸立體停車場的這個促參案，當年2017年也獲得金擘獎的肯定，可是其他幾個案得獎、得肯定的都續約了，但是這樣一個得獎的基隆市東岸立體停車場，卻衍生了續約的爭議，產生了產權的爭議，也進入了執法的爭議，非常奇怪，明明是執行良好的促參廠商，沒有獲得續約合理在法律上應當有的法律地位，反而陷入了非常負面的續約爭議，現在還在對簿公堂。所以同一屆得獎的命運大不同，大家可以想看看，基隆市東岸立體停車場的促參案是獲得財政部金擘獎肯定的，今天被抹黑成什麼狀況？基隆市東岸停車場的ROT爭議，其實這是地方自治的權限，基隆市府是大有問題，當然包括它的執法爭議，強行帶警察侵入NET營運中的空間，所以謝國樑市長現在是涉強盜罪，正在偵辦中。續約的爭議更如同我剛剛說的，它明明是一個被財政部促參評鑑優等，它是佳等獎，結果呢？NET被評為優良評鑑，依原本的合約精神，原廠商可以優先續約，而且NET所提出的廠商簽約年限更長，但是權利金卻比NET低很多，我說的是現在謝國樑另外標出去的這個爭議個案，這是非常離譜的事，把好的廠商趕走，然後引入一個對於政府、對於公共利益條件更糟的廠商，這是前所未見，所以基隆市府是大有問題。","促參爭議的處理機制是什麼？剛剛前一位委員也有請教財政部的代表，其實促參的爭議處理機制有非常清楚的法律程序，促參法第四十八條之一，投資契約可以走協調會去協調履約爭議，協調不成再提付仲裁；或者是促參法第四十八條之一的第二項也有很清楚的調解過程，這都是現在法律有的機制，我不曉得剛剛在野黨的委員請財政部要積極介入，能介入什麼？要去替謝國樑解圍嗎？這也是地方事務啊，這也是地方自治啊，這也是私權之間的爭議啊，現在來向中央財政部討救兵，為了搶救謝國樑，我要再一次說司法及法制委員會以外力干預個案，請適可而止。","如果一個政策的正確會帶來地方大發展、大躍進，政策正確之下，基隆的東岸廣場可以從過去一個破敗的場域華麗大變身，Before and After，只要政策正確，政權移轉後，接棒的人也要好好地、用心地來做對的政策，把一個華麗大變身的東岸廣場，好不容易成為一個對於市民、企業、觀光客，包括基隆市府都是大加分的建設案，現在淪為執法的爭議、產權的糾紛、司法的訴訟，作為市長的人，這不是大有問題嗎？這是一個適任適格的市政府嗎？","既然有委員今天刻意排這個案是劍指個案，我也要藉這個機會來杜絕不實的抹黑，有人說基隆市東岸廣場這件事情，大日公司以5,050萬的權利金取得東岸的經營權來批判林右昌前市長，我要替他澄清，當年林右昌市府保底可以收到的權利金是5,050萬，但是謝國樑跟微風簽約，保底價只有2,655萬，誰替政府賺錢？誰讓政府吃虧？比一比就知道。國民黨在批評大日公司不可以轉租給NET，事實是什麼呢？在這個個案當中，NET就是大日的協力商，合約上清清楚楚，也是合約上規範可以邀請協力的廠商，何錯之有？不要這樣抹黑依法、依合約辦事的林右昌前市長。國民黨又在罵NET增加商業面積是增加獲益，跟大家澄清，增加的廣場面積是公共空間，24小時公民可以使用，如同為基隆市爭取了一個大公園，不是增加商場賺錢獲益的面積，而是增加24小時基隆市民都可以使用的公共空間，不要再抹黑，而這個公共空間，一樓可以連接到公車站的人行大通廊，二樓開放式廣場加上數個遮雨棚的穿廊連接，三樓還有天空跑道，是年輕人熱愛聚集的新場域。我要結束了，最後30秒，謝謝智強委員。增建的產權沒有登記嗎？我要澄清，只要謝國樑市長照著合約走，就都不會有這些爭議，但是謝國樑要以強盜的行為強行來接管，所以謝國樑現在是強盜案的被告，如果不要去搞這些奇奇怪怪的變更採購，涉及讓條件很不對等的廠商來標得這樣一個珍貴的促參成功案例，都不會有現在的產權爭議、都不會有現在的執法爭議。","所以今天我花一些時間，因為我真的是絞盡腦汁，很想知道召委排案到底是劍指哪一個個案，後來經過釐清、追查，原來是要講這個個案，我也就我的質詢本務、我的職責，努力地就這個個案去瞭解，也基於我的瞭解，我必須提出清楚的說明，這是我擔任立委9年以來，第一次我沒有請任何官員上臺。我希望未來召委排案，主題要明確、議題要清晰，但是我還是努力地做一個專業立委應該有的準備。謝謝智強委員多給我的時間，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。因為吳思瑤委員對於今天的主題有意見，我可能還是要說明一下，今天我們的主題是「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」，我看剛剛前面很多委員針對今天的主題詢答都沒有問題，官員也很認真地上來做詢答，所以以上做一個說明。","登記委員詢答完畢，現在有陳玉珍委員再請求詢答，在場如無異議，接著請陳玉珍委員進行詢答，時間5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-36","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳玉珍","葉元之","翁曉玲","沈發惠","傅崐萁","傅崐萁"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會、財政部率所屬相關單位\n列席就「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.050968750000001,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.04221875,"end":16.500968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.19284375,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.20096875,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.778468750000002,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.69784375,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.566593750000003,"end":31.570343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.992218750000006,"end":34.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.31659375,"end":38.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.37096875,"end":40.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.03721875,"end":43.939718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.54721875,"end":49.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.11596875,"end":52.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.45721875,"end":54.908468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.549718750000004,"end":56.680343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.49034375,"end":59.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.578468750000006,"end":61.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.979093750000004,"end":66.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.54784375,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.51784375,"end":75.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.81221875,"end":79.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.37721875000001,"end":82.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.12346875,"end":89.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.07596875,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.20659375000001,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.31596875000001,"end":100.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.00659375000001,"end":105.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.97221875000001,"end":116.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.27846875,"end":119.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.68721875000001,"end":121.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.96971875000001,"end":123.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.97784375,"end":129.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.22159375,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.13659375,"end":137.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.44409375,"end":149.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.86409375000002,"end":155.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.27659375000002,"end":163.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.42721875,"end":171.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.10534375,"end":179.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.08721875,"end":185.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.22971875000002,"end":189.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.22909375,"end":210.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.74909375000001,"end":213.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.41096875000002,"end":217.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.42721875,"end":241.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.01846875,"end":247.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.73909375000002,"end":249.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.94971875000002,"end":264.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.42409375,"end":269.38971875000004},{"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所以我今天在這裡表示我的立場我也不會請任何一個官員上台好 下一頁就今天的主題是盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探討與改善我們讀過研究所、讀過博士班的人都知道任何一個論文的命題下面會有以什麼什麼個案為例啊"},{"start":190.307,"end":213.118,"text":"所以我實在不知道今天交委就這樣一個法制面他想要探討跟釐清的爭議在哪裡如果就法規面有非常清楚的促參的法規可以來依循所以這是不是一個政治命題社會是一個私設形堂呢我不知道我也希望不是好下一頁委員會的職權傻傻分不清嗎"},{"start":218.476,"end":240.969,"text":"立法院的相關的八個委員會的分工司法法制很清楚我們對於司法院對於法務部對於人事總處有我們督導的職權如果是要去關心促進民間參與公共建設促參法的規範的主體的機關是財政部這是促參法的明定"},{"start":242.102,"end":268.88,"text":"所以說如果是財政部主管的法律那可以去財政委員會來審議所以今天在司法法制委員會到底要審議了解什麼執行的爭議我也真的不了解那吳宗憲召委不在齁我沒有辦法獲得他本人的釐清好 下一頁那我試著去理解如果要講促餐"},{"start":270.051,"end":288.455,"text":"那促參這個91年就90年大修之後我們確實以新的促參法的法律授權那在全台灣推動很多不管中央政府或地方政府的促參案件以91年促參法大修到現在113年統計全台灣的促參案達到1661件"},{"start":294.056,"end":311.714,"text":"所吸引帶動的民間投資額達到一兆38億元這是我們努力的成果所以我們企圖的用這樣一個法律的付權來增加政府的稅收來增加民間企業來投入"},{"start":312.915,"end":337.451,"text":"然後一起達到政府民間企業三贏的局面這是促餐法讓公共建設以及公共服務可以升級我這裡秀出來的是華山文創還有宜蘭傳譯中心都是我過去在教育文化領域長期會去關心的促餐的相關的案例下頁"},{"start":339.612,"end":346.318,"text":"財政部在促餐法大修之後同年91年也上錄了經過獎司長在場我沒有請您上台經過獎嘛經過獎就是要肯定中央或地方政府促餐的好的時機成績那如果以2017年經過獎的得獎名單我們來看喔"},{"start":363.954,"end":374.619,"text":"有臺大醫院的美食街的促餐案它是優等以梨山賓館的營運也獲得優等然後墾丁賓館的營運也獲得優等而這三個得獎的經過獎的得主都獲得續約的機會因為它是執行良好而且中間的它續約了"},{"start":390.745,"end":399.494,"text":"但是呢同一年一起得到金獲獎肯定的也有基隆市東岸立體停車場的這個促餐案當年2017年基隆東岸立體停車場也獲得金獲獎的肯定可是"},{"start":410.731,"end":422.839,"text":"其他幾個案得獎得肯定的都續約了但是這樣一個得獎的基隆市東岸立體停車場卻衍生了續約的爭議產生了產權的爭議也進入了執法的爭議非常奇怪明明是執行良好的住餐的廠商沒有獲得續約的"},{"start":438.399,"end":438.619,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":464.79,"end":488.018,"text":"基隆市東岸停車場的ROT的爭議是ROT的爭議其實這是地方自治的權限啦基隆市府是大有問題當然包括它的執法爭議強行帶警察去侵入這個NET在營運中的空間所以謝國良市長現在是涉強盜罪在偵辦中"},{"start":491.072,"end":494.135,"text":"那續約的爭議更如同我剛剛說的它明明是一個被財政部促參評鑑優等它是加等獎結果呢Net被評為優良評鑑依原本的合約精神約廠商可以優先的續約而且Net所提出的廠商簽約的年限更長但是權利金卻比Net低很多我說的是現在謝國良另外"},{"start":517.935,"end":518.736,"text":"剛才前一位委員也有請教我們財政部的代表"},{"start":547.512,"end":549.895,"text":"其實促參的爭議處理的機制有非常清楚的法律的程式嘛我們促參48條之一"},{"start":559.315,"end":582.091,"text":"你的投資契約你可以走協調會去協調履約爭議嘛協調不成再提付仲裁嘛或者是蘇三四十八條之一的第二項也有很清楚的調解的過程這都是現在法律有的機制我不曉得剛剛在野黨的委員請財政部要積極介入你能介入什麼"},{"start":583.345,"end":583.525,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":609.318,"end":629.661,"text":"如果一個政策的正確．會帶來地方大發展．大躍進政策正確之下．基隆的東岸廣場．可以從過去的一個破敗的場域．華麗大變身Before and after只要政策正確．"},{"start":631.428,"end":641.641,"text":"而政權移轉接棒的人也要好好的去用心的來做對的政策"},{"start":642.892,"end":643.593,"text":"現在淪為執法的爭議、產權的糾紛、司法的訴訟"},{"start":663.735,"end":664.035,"text":"最後一頁有人說"},{"start":686.058,"end":696.399,"text":"金融市東岸廣場這件事情大日公司以5050萬的權利金取得東岸的經營權來批判林右昌前市長"},{"start":697.765,"end":706.35,"text":"我要替他澄清當年零幼昌市場保底可以收到的權利金是5050萬但是謝國良跟微風簽約保底價只有2655萬誰替政府賺錢誰讓政府吃虧比一比就知道"},{"start":719.366,"end":744.347,"text":"國民黨在批評大日公司不可以轉租給Net事實是什麼呢在這個個案當中Net就是大日的協力商合約上清清楚楚也是合約上規範可以邀請協力的廠商合作之友不要這樣抹黑依法依合約辦事的林佑昌前市長"},{"start":746.244,"end":774.407,"text":"國民黨又在罵內特增加商業面積是增加獲益喔跟大家澄清增加的廣場的面積是公共空間24小時公民可以使用如同為基隆市爭取了一個大公園不是增加商場賺錢獲益的面積而是增加24小時基隆市民都可以使用的公共空間"},{"start":776.147,"end":776.928,"text":"尊健的產權沒有登記嗎?"},{"start":801.721,"end":822.942,"text":"我要澄清只要謝國良市長照著合約走就都不會有這些爭議但是謝國良要以強盜的行為強行來接管所以呢謝國良現在是強盜案的被告如果不要去搞這些奇奇怪怪的變更採購"},{"start":825.629,"end":852.058,"text":"涉及讓條件很不對等的廠商來標得這樣一個珍貴的促參成功的案例都不會有現在的產權爭議都不會有現在的執法爭議所以今天我花一些時間因為我真的是絞盡腦汁很想知道昭緯排案到底是見質哪一個個案後來經過釐清追查"},{"start":853.089,"end":854.249,"text":"我希望未來的朝委排案主題要明確議題要清晰但是"},{"start":878.797,"end":878.897,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154631","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154631","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8889650bd8993082a2652beeb573fd6de7bbd1653412844860665fd020f2568485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:51:20 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謝謝主席 我們請財政部我們的初三師師長"},{"start":17.535,"end":33.516,"text":"市長我想今天我們召委排這個題目有關這個公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議的探究與改善我想我們最近最熱門的有關我們公私部門合作所產生的一個爭議最大的"},{"start":34.497,"end":50.84,"text":"最近最大、最熱門的議題我想大家都知道就是基隆市政府與大日公司的履約的一個爭議我想這個案子一開始是大日公司與市政府的停車場的OT案"},{"start":51.661,"end":69.731,"text":"一開始是OT案就這個停車場公共建設的OT案後來因為一樓改建二、三、四樓增建而延伸是否為ROT案的一個爭議那這個案子請問這個司長您是專家那您認為說民間參與公共投資為什麼會發生這種爭議"},{"start":78.711,"end":104.038,"text":"報告委員謝謝委員的關心那這個案子呢其實從頭到尾都是OT案並沒有改為ROT那其實在他原先的契約規範裡面是希望民間來投資經營這個地下室的停車場那一樓跟一樓頂部的這個可以作為商場使用呢他是叫做附屬事業所以這個在原來的契約裡面都有明定"},{"start":104.818,"end":107.02,"text":"市長,這個我大概了解,其實我現在一個很好奇的點就是說"},{"start":121.07,"end":138.539,"text":"基隆市政府當初OT案然後就你剛才提到的所謂的一樓商場以及二到四樓的增建這個案子你認為是屬於附屬事業的一個跟市府跟這個當地公司的雙方的一個契約的一個約定"},{"start":139.707,"end":155.175,"text":"但是就是說當初我看市府那個當時的市府他好像有意說要把它改成ROT案他好像有這個意思所以我要請教你當初他們在做這個契約的一個研議的時候去做這樣一個變更的時候把ROT案"},{"start":156.316,"end":175.078,"text":"負責事業的部分可以去把它變更為由他來做一個改建、增建這樣子的他們雙方就簽了一個另外的一個契約變更的一個契約當初有沒有請教過財政部相關意願在這個研議的過程中變更的過程中"},{"start":175.838,"end":192.812,"text":"我記得當時105年的時候曾經有來跟我們來請示說這樣子是不是適當財政部但是我們檢視的整個合約其實它並不是改成ROT案它還是在原來的契約機制裡面還是按照OT的一個規範"},{"start":195.314,"end":209.721,"text":"所以財政部給他答案是說這個案子你們不認為說這個是改善OT案但是你們是不是認同說同意他就說那你可以依照這個OT案你可以就這附屬事業你們可以做另外的一個約定"},{"start":211.843,"end":239.986,"text":"這部分因為會是一旦簽約之後就按照契約的條文去履約基本上我們不會介入那很清楚的是在契約裡面有明定這樣的機制所以包括基隆市政府跟大日公司他們都是按照這樣的機制所以這樣做沒有違反初餐條例目前看起來是沒有的所以他們另外的變更契約的約定因為他在原來的契約裡面就有約定可以這樣子去執行"},{"start":242.155,"end":266.888,"text":"他不是變更契約的內容嗎?沒有,他沒有變更契約內容原契約就是有這樣的一個程序那我看一下法院判決的事實我想這個都是公開的內容基隆地安法院就這個案子已經有相關的判決我看判決理由第二點他認定說依細增會議記錄及被告提出的被告就是基隆市政府提出的細增變更營運計畫書"},{"start":269.249,"end":292.755,"text":"逐漸原告也就是大日公司在繫增105年的委託營運企業期間原申請改建東岸停車場一樓並拆除二樓原建物增建商場事經兩兆合議提升開發規模原告就是大日公司來提出規劃增建二樓到四樓商場的繫增計畫書"},{"start":295.316,"end":314.208,"text":"也就是說從這個判決裡面看出來當時他們是已經做他們的營運計畫書已經有做變更他們要提升開發的一個規模所以在這種情況之下我們不禁想說奇怪當初如果他有請教我們財政部出差司的話那奇怪這種變更營運計畫書難道不是把原來的就是OTI已經變更為ROTI嗎"},{"start":321.38,"end":349.699,"text":"報告委員因為這部分的變更其實他並沒有來請跟財政部這邊請求示意但是就我剛剛有跟您報告在契約裡面他們就約定可以提出改善計畫所以他們是按照契約的條文由以方提出變更經營的這個計畫書的內容然後再去協商他經營的範圍市長我的現在疑問就是這明明他就是改建跟增建現在不是改善"},{"start":350.219,"end":350.599,"text":"林思銘"},{"start":371.548,"end":385.127,"text":"所以我現在對你這個附屬事業的定義我們聽起來我想專業的人可能一般民眾可能聽不懂什麼叫附屬事業那連我們學法律的人都覺得你這個附屬事業這個名詞我都聽得很奇怪明明就是說"},{"start":386.633,"end":386.673,"text":"林思銘議員"},{"start":408.337,"end":430.682,"text":"大日公司出資來改建東岸停車場一樓及新建二樓至四樓的徵件物,繫增徵件物完成後,批為商場,由被告取得所有權,且納入繫增105年委託營運契約的範圍之內,仍交由原告大日公司營運,事後續約時也將"},{"start":433.763,"end":456.603,"text":"也將他列入戲徵110年後來又續約5年到期了嘛110年的委託營運契約的委託營運資產也當作他們的一個資產所以那個後來NET公司啊他以這個也以那個基隆市政府的名義去申請拆除執照及建造執照所以"},{"start":457.344,"end":480.099,"text":"他們雙方系統市政府跟大致公司很明顯的他就是為了擴大被告依促三法第八條擴大市政府依促三法第八條委託營運資產的範圍反正判決是這樣認定的因為他把整個資產已經擴大了而不是你剛才講什麼附屬事業就是把原來營運的標的他擴大了"},{"start":482.796,"end":512.216,"text":"原來的停車場這種建物的範圍這個資產擴大把它增加它的一個範圍所以也把它納入他們的契約的裏面所以法院認定說繫增建物的合意並就相關費用的負擔所有權的歸屬增建後的用途及受託營運的人均一併詳為約定所以判決認定說這個建物的所有權是屬於基隆市政府"},{"start":513.276,"end":523.183,"text":"所以雙方現在產生這麼大的一個爭議那當然我想您站在主幹機關的一個立場對於這種履約的爭議啊財政部是否應該介入協調"},{"start":524.847,"end":525.708,"text":"所以您當時拒絕他的協調的申請"},{"start":551.243,"end":571.915,"text":"因為大日想要申請的是要第二次的優先訂約那優先訂約的這個核准權其實是在基隆市政府那他們當時的判斷就是他們不予同意所以在這樣的情況下因為我們認為沒有調解上的一個實意所以我們並沒有受理這個案子"},{"start":572.595,"end":593.133,"text":"好 那是那個階段那現在這個階段呢 有關於履約爭議因為現在雙方在訴訟我現在比較好奇就是說奇怪 財政部為什麼就這個案子在雙方還沒有訴訟以前主動去告知你公私部門要合作嘛那為什麼你們沒有去告知基隆市政府說這個案子你們是先來我來幫你們先來調解一下"},{"start":597.385,"end":621.511,"text":"包委員如果就時間序來看的話這個案子他第一次的7月5年跟第一次的優先定約3年在8年的履約期間其實基隆市政府跟大日並沒有什麼爭議因為他的履約績效從他的分數來看都是達到優良良好的但是是在這個做資產的這個移交的部分"},{"start":621.991,"end":624.612,"text":"其實不管是後段的禮約爭議或中段或前段一開始的禮約"},{"start":640.699,"end":660.205,"text":"我建議其實財政部還是要積極的介入讓這些公私合作的案子雙方都能夠很周全的完成他們整個禮約的一個的項目否則現在我們看就造成訴訟我覺得某部分我們公部門還是要發揮積極的一個的一個影響力因為法規你在解釋的啊"},{"start":661.972,"end":662.432,"text":"我們會努力的來做這個事情"}]}},{"id":"154630","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154630","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f86b6b64697aa412002652beeb573fd6de7bbd1653412844865564f04bc932350b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:39:29 - 10:51:00","影片長度":"00:11:31","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會、財政部率所屬相關單位列席就「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:39:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:51:00+08:00","duration":691,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":36,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-36"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":519,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時39分）謝謝主席羅委員，我們請財政部的李司長。"],["主席：好，請財政部。"],["陳委員俊宇：司長早。"],["李司長建賢：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們今天要討論的是有關公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善。因為公部門和私部門合作的模式和範圍都相當多元及廣泛，所以應該就促進民間參與公共建設法，也就是促參法的內容來做討論。由於政府在財政和經營能力有所侷限，所以，當地方有重大的公共建設和相關議題的時候，我們都希望能透過民間的力量來投資參與，除了減輕政府財政上的負擔，也期待能夠提升建設還有營運的效能，來滿足社會大眾對於公共建設的需求。從促參法第三條的內容來看，法規上所適用的有關公共建設的範圍包括交通、環境、農業、醫療、文教等等，幾乎涵蓋民眾的日常生活，因為公共利益上影響的層面甚廣，所以在管控的措施上，我想還是必須要謹慎。","第一個想要請教的是，促參法第五條第二項有關主辦機關的定義是：「本法所稱主辦機關，指主辦民間參與公共建設相關業務之機關：在中央為目的事業主管機關；在直轄市為直轄市政府；在縣（市）為縣（市）政府。……」對於中央和地方政府之間，我想就教的是，地方政府在辦理促參案的時候都是自行辦理，再報備給財政部就好了嗎？還是說有什麼規模或類別的促參案需要由中央政府機關另外再來做審核？這方面有沒有相關的規定？"],["李司長建賢：謝謝委員的指教，有關促參法的規定，財政部是擔任促參法法令的主管機關，各個其他的機關是依據它的任務跟需求，在中央包括各部會及所屬機關，在地方政府包括直轄市、縣市政府這些，都可以依據他們公共建設的需求來辦理，並不需要將它的個案再報到財政部，除非在執行的過程裡面有涉及促參法法令的解釋，或是辦理的程序上有需要財政部協助的，我們會提供協助。大概的分工是這樣子。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，因為我們看到有一些促參案件履約的時間可能長達30年至50年，當時間一拉長，產生的爭議有可能也會提升，甚至也會影響到服務的品質，對於案件履約設定的期限，也是由主辦機關和民間機構自行決定的嗎？"],["李司長建賢：是的，一般來講，促參法的採購可以分成政府規劃完成之後來發包，另外一種是由民間自行提出規劃案之後，向主辦機關申請，不管是哪一種方式，其實契約裡面都會按照促參法的規定，每一年，還有他們需要的時間來辦理所謂的履約營運績效評定，這個營運績效的評定會就民間機構過去一年或是固定的時間內，到底它的履約品質如何來進行一些評定。如果有一些瑕疵或缺失的部分，當然都可以要求改善，如果表現良好的，也會有一個優先訂約的機制，讓這個民間機構繼續在一定時間內再來履約，所以它的機制是這樣的安排。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。司長，我想請教一下，履約時間訂定的認定標準有沒有一個基本的條件？"],["李司長建賢：基本上並沒有一定的規範，但主要就是透過財務試算，因為促參案件希望民間來投資，民間的投資會要求有一定程度的獲利，所以每個個案會依據它的收支情況去評估它的財務可行性，也就是民間的投報率是不是有達到。在這個投報率的要求底下，才會去訂定它的履約期限。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。另外一方面就是履約過短可能會招商困難，但履約時間設定過長的話，對公部門來說也會失去調整的彈性，進而對於服務品質也難以把關，這方面應該如何來權衡？"],["李司長建賢：履約期限的長短在契約裡面都有一定的機制在運作，譬如說如果太長的履約期，在一定時間內，不管是主辦機關或民間機構，都可以提出修約，修約的程序由任一方提出之後，經過雙方協調或協商，就可以來修正契約內容，改善履約的品質。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我想再討論的部分就是我們剛剛所詢問的幾個問題，我們也看到過去中國靠著一帶一路，對各國的基礎建設進行滲透，在我們促參法所規範的公共建設範圍包括自來水，還有能源、醫療，甚至鐵路、港口的建設，這些其實和普羅大眾的民生日常都息息相關，其他包括工業、商業，還有科技的設施，甚至還有我們新加入的數位建設，我想這些都是我們國家核心的技術，倘若有促參案主辦的機關有意或無意的引進中資，讓中國的勢力滲透到我們眾多基礎建設核心的技術，我想請教就是現行的法規對於中資的部分，我們是否有足夠的量能來管控？"],["李司長建賢：對於外國廠商要參與我們的促參案，他是被允許的，但是如果是中資的部分，因為在投資的時候，他的資金要進到臺灣，會有一個資金審議的機制是由我們經濟部這邊來進行審查，所以中資要滲透進來，在機制上是有一定的防止。但是我們比較關心的是，契約的履行過程裡面，如果有涉及資安或國安的一些議題的時候，我們現在在促參2.0的修法中，也特別要求主辦機關在做營運績效評定或是履約過程裡面，也要對於資安或涉及國安的部分，特別要求民間機構要做一些防範的作業。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。司長，我們擔心的是假冒成外資的中資企業，它有可能是中資投資到外國的廠商，然後再投資到臺灣相關的建設工程，對於這方面，我們有沒有一個比較好的管控機制？"],["李司長建賢：這部分會比較複雜，但是就實務的執行上，因為外國的公司來投標之後，它在興建期勢必要跟我們當地的廠商合作，所以並不是那麼容易可以全盤的控制整個計畫，或是全盤來掌握，所以這部分在實際運作上，目前是沒有發現這樣的一個情況。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，也希望這個部分我們能持續去瞭解，避免在我們相關促參案件中有中資的現象的相關疑慮。","另外，在我們前次的修法當中，也把數位建設納入第三條所規範的公共建設裡，這讓我們比較好奇的是，因為它反映出現在許多公共建設並不限於硬體建設，也符合現在政府發展的數位治理，更是符合各領域發展跨域創新所需的部分，但是數位建設的範疇，同樣是五花八門，可能涵蓋到群眾的部分無遠弗屆。我想請教，目前數位建設促參案件辦理的成效如何？案件的數量多不多？以及在辦理當中，我們部會機關與民間機構的合作，有沒有遭遇到什麼樣的困難？"],["李司長建賢：是的，謝謝委員。在我們修法的時候，把四個公共建設類別新增進去，包括綠電還有數位建設，目前數位建設還沒有新的案例，但是我們也發現，單純的數位建設要作為公共建設投資，不管是硬體或軟體，大概都會跟其他的公共建設類別有做一個結合。所以我們現在也在等著看數位部或是各地方政府的這些資訊中心，他們有沒有這個需求，會用這種方式來做招商，希望民間來投資，目前是沒有一個個案採用這種方式。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，在數位建設當中，不免也會提到的就是資安的問題，我也想說在我們數位服務中所要考量的因素，當然包括大數據、雲端數據的內容都要有妥善的防護，我想再就教的就是對於數位促參案在資安上的保護措施，我們是否需要再有更嚴謹的規範？"],["李司長建賢：目前完全都是按照行政院要求的資安管控機制，不管是公部門或是私部門都會一體適用，所以未來如果有數位建設促參案，它的防範等級還是一樣的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那就請我們司長這邊、我們財政部對於相關的規範一定要有一個比較好的掌握。"],["李司長建賢：是的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，以上，謝謝。"],["李司長建賢：謝謝委員。"],["主席：沈發惠委員改書面質詢。","沈委員伯洋、沈委員伯洋、沈委員伯洋不在。","請林委員思銘進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-36","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳玉珍","葉元之","翁曉玲","沈發惠","傅崐萁","傅崐萁"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會、財政部率所屬相關單位\n列席就「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.29534375,"end":15.555968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.99471875,"end":17.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.83346875,"end":22.930343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.14971875,"end":38.016593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.40471875,"end":107.62596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.35159375,"end":156.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.47909375,"end":157.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.01909375,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.03596875000002,"end":201.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.86034375000003,"end":226.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.88159375,"end":232.09596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.29846875,"end":237.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.34409375,"end":282.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.02909375,"end":288.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.335968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謝謝主席羅委員那我們請財政部的理事長好 請財政部"},{"start":22.317,"end":48.616,"text":"市長早委員好我們今天要討論的是有關公私部門合作營運模式在法制上爭議的這個探究和改善那我想因為公部門和私部門合作的模式和範圍都相當的多元及廣泛所以我應該就這個我們促進民間參與公共建設法也就是這個促參法的內容來做討論那由於我們政府在"},{"start":49.821,"end":71.714,"text":"財政和經營能力有所極限的情況之下所以當地方有重大的公共建設還有相關的議題的時候我們都希望能夠透過民間的力量來投資參與除了減輕政府財政上的負擔也期待能夠提升建設還有營運的效能來滿足社會"},{"start":76.457,"end":100.783,"text":"大眾對於公共建設的需求我們從這個畜産法第三條的內容來看法規上所適用有關這個公共建設的範圍包括了交通還有這個環境、農業、醫療、文教等等幾乎涵蓋民眾的日常生活那公共利益上影響的層面甚廣所以在管控的這個措施上我想還是必須要謹慎"},{"start":101.923,"end":106.228,"text":"所以第一個想要請教的是財政部在促參法第5條第二項當中"},{"start":108.427,"end":132.826,"text":"有關這個主辦機關的這個規定那該條文的內容規範的主辦的這個機關指的是辦理這個民間參與公共建設相關業務的機關在中央當然是我們目的事業主管機關在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市則由縣市政府作為主辦的機關對於中央和地方政府之間"},{"start":133.667,"end":153.187,"text":"我想就教的是地方政府在辦理促參案的時候都是自行辦理再報備給我們財政部就好了嗎還是說有什麼這個規模或類別的這個促參案需要由中央政府機關另外再來做審核"},{"start":153.968,"end":182.975,"text":"那這方面有沒有相關的這個規定是 謝謝委員的指教那有關那個初參法的規定財政部是擔任初參法的法令的主管機關是那各個其他的機關是依據他的任務跟需求那在中央包括各部會及所屬機關那在地方政府包括直轄市縣市政府這些都可以依據他們的公共建設的需求來辦理那並不需要說"},{"start":184.256,"end":199.993,"text":"將他的這個個案再報到財政部那除非有在執行的過程裡面有涉及出攤法法令的解釋或是辦理的程序上有需要財政部協助的那我們會給予提供協助大概的一個分工是這樣子"},{"start":201.495,"end":223.553,"text":"因為我們看到有一些促參的案件他履約的時間可能長達30年到50年當時間一拉長的情況之下產生的爭議有可能也會提升甚至也會影響到服務的品質對於這個案件履約的設定的期限也是由主辦的機關和民間機構自行決定的嗎"},{"start":227.303,"end":251.485,"text":"是的 一般來講我們初參法的這個採購可以分成政府來規劃完成之後來發包那另外一種是由民間自行提出規劃案之後向主辦機關來申請那不管是哪一種方式其實契約裡面都會按照我們初參法的規定每一年還有他們需要的時間來辦理所謂的履約的營運績效評定"},{"start":253.407,"end":273.7,"text":"那這個營運績效評定就會就民間機構他們在過去一年或是固定的時間內他到底他的履約的品質如何進行一些評定那當然如果有一些瑕疵或缺失的部分當然都可以要求來改善那如果表現良好的也會有一個叫優先訂約的機制"},{"start":275.522,"end":288.578,"text":"讓這個民間機構來繼續的來一定時間內再來履約所以他的機制是這樣的一個安排市長我想請教一下那個履約時間的訂定的認定標準他有沒有一個基本的條件"},{"start":290.04,"end":315.211,"text":"基本上並沒有一定的規範但是主要的就是透過財務試算因為出差案件希望民間來投資那民間的投資他會要求有一定程度的獲利所以在每個個案的情況下他會依據他的收支的一個情況去評估他的財務的可行性也就是說民間的投報率是不是有達到"},{"start":315.971,"end":337.397,"text":"那在這個投報率的這個要求底下呢才會去訂定他的履約的期限好那另外一方面就是履約時間過短可能會招商困難但履約的時間設定過長的話對公部門來說也會失去調整的一個彈性進而會這個對於服務的品質也難以把關"},{"start":338.177,"end":366.498,"text":"那這方面我們應該要如何來權衡?是的我想履約期限的長短在契約裡面都有一定的機制在運作譬如說如果太長的這個履約期的話那在一定時間內不管是主辦機關跟民間機構都可以來提出修約那修約的程序由任一方提出之後經過雙方協調或協商之後呢就可以來修正契約的一個內容那來改善這個履約的品質"},{"start":367.239,"end":380.267,"text":"好 那我想在討論的這個部分就是我們剛剛所詢問的這個幾個問題啦齁那我們也看到過去這個中國啦齁就是靠著一帶一路把各國的這個基礎建設進行滲透啦齁那"},{"start":382.928,"end":408.746,"text":"在我們促參法所規範的一個公共建設的範圍包括了這個自來水還有能源醫療甚至是這個包括還有這個鐵路還有港口的建設那其實和普羅大眾的這個民生日常都息息相關其他包括工業商業還有科技的這個設施甚至還有我們新加入的這個數位的建設那我"},{"start":409.406,"end":434.432,"text":"我想這些都是我們國家這個核心的技術倘若有這個促參案主辦的這個機關有意或無意的引進中資讓中國的這個勢力滲透到我們眾多的這個基礎建設核心的這個技術那我想請教就是現行的法規對於中資的部分我們是否有足夠的一個量能來管控"},{"start":435.938,"end":458.245,"text":"對於外國廠商要參與我們的促餐案它是被允許的但是如果是中資的部分因為它在投資的時候它的資金要進到台灣的時候會有一個資金的一個審議的一個機制是由我們經濟部這邊來進行審查所以中資要滲透進來在機制上是有一定的一個防止"},{"start":459.025,"end":459.045,"text":"市長"},{"start":485.18,"end":501.951,"text":"我們擔心的是假冒成外資的中資企業他有可能是中資投資到外國的廠商然後再投資到台灣的相關的建設工程那對於這方面我們有沒有一個比較好的管控的機制"},{"start":504.003,"end":527.25,"text":"這部分會比較複雜但是就實務上在執行因為外國的公司來投標之後他在新建期勢必要跟我們當地的廠商來合作所以並不是那麼容易就是說他可以全盤的來控制整個計畫或是他全盤的掌握所以這部分在實際運作上目前是沒有發現說有這樣的一個情況"},{"start":527.83,"end":556.975,"text":"好 我們也希望說這個部分我們持續去了解避免相關的這個疑慮在我們這個相關的這個促參的案件中會有這個中資的現象那另外在我們前置的修法當中也把數位建設納入第三條所規範的公共建設理那這讓我們比較好奇的是因為它反映現在許多公共建設並不限於硬體建設也符合現在政府發展的數位治理"},{"start":557.455,"end":586.246,"text":"更是符合各領域發展這個跨域創新所需的這個部分但是數位建設的範疇同樣是五花八門那可能涵蓋到群眾的這個部分無遠弗屆我想請教就是目前我們數位建設促參案件辦理的這個成效如何那案件的數量多不多以及在辦理的這個當中我們部會機關與民間機構的合作有沒有遭遇到什麼樣的困難"},{"start":586.949,"end":614.853,"text":"是的 謝謝委員那在我們修法的時候把四個公共建設類別把它新增進去那包括我們的綠電還有我們的數位建設那目前數位建設還沒有新的案例但是我們也發現就是說單純的數位建設要來作為公共建設投資不管是硬體或軟體大概都會去跟其他的公共建設類別有做一個結合所以我們現在也在等著"},{"start":615.293,"end":629.381,"text":"看數位部或是各地方政府的這些資訊中心他們有沒有這個需求會用這種方式來做這個招商那希望民間來投資目前是沒有一個個案來採用這種方式"},{"start":630.382,"end":654.081,"text":"那在數位建設當中不免也會提到的就是這個資安的問題那我也想說在我們數位這個服務中所要考量的因素當然包括大數據雲端數據的內容都要有妥善的一個防護那我想再就教就是對於數位促參案在資安上的保護措施我們是否需要再有更嚴謹的一個這個規範"},{"start":656.896,"end":682.958,"text":"目前完全都是按照行政院他要求的這個資安的一個管控的機制不管你是公部門或是私部門都會一體適用所以未來如果數位建設出產案他的這個防範的等級還是一樣的好 那就請我們這個市長這邊我們財政部對於相關的這個規範一定要有一個比較好的一個掌握是的 是的好 以上謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":690.082,"end":690.384,"text":"呃 省委員發"}]}},{"id":"154629","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154629","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f83e2e53494f48954aca0ece664f026f7b7bbd16534128448667be5a84947bdd715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:06:42 - 11:15:54","影片長度":"00:09:12","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T11:06:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:15:54+08:00","duration":552,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":538,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時6分）主席好，麻煩請核能會陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。現在總統府有成立一個氣候變遷對策委員會，你知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我知道。"],["葉委員元之：有沒有開始運作，有沒有通知你去開會、表達意見？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有通知我。"],["葉委員元之：從來沒有通知過你，那是總統府成立的，我們都知道總統的權力應該是臺灣最大的，所以以總統府的決定為準，總統府氣候變遷對策委員會副召集人童子賢講了一句話，他說臺灣現在沒有讓核電退場的條件，其實這跟我們今天修法的目標是一致的，對於這個委員會副召集人童子賢所講的話，主委，你有沒有反對他的意見？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我尊重。"],["葉委員元之：你有沒有反對？不是尊重，現在的政策是立場，沒有什麼尊重不尊重，現在講的是政策，你是支持還是反對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：核安會在核能上面是一個獨立機關，它沒有特定的立場。"],["葉委員元之：不是，如果是這樣，今天修法就不用你來了，我們現在就是在討論要不要修法，所以要問你的意見，現在童子賢的意見跟我們今天修法的方向一模一樣，我現在問的是你對於童子賢的看法是支持還是反對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我要再次強調……"],["葉委員元之：主委，這個不能逃避，不好意思！你不能逃避，你必須要回答，你對於童子賢的意見是支持還是反對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我沒有意見。"],["葉委員元之：你沒有意見，那你今天來答詢要幹嘛？你不能逃避！請問你對童子賢的意見是支持還是反對？不是尊重，如果政府機關講的話你支持，你就會說支持，所以我的解讀是你反對，但是你不好意思講，所以你才會說尊重。剛剛羅廷瑋委員也有講到，李遠哲說核電雖然有缺點，但是跟人類滅絕比較起來，核電還是要繼續使用，主委，你認為核電使用的缺點比較大，還是人類滅絕的影響比較大？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想我也尊重……"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！主委，你不能什麼都尊重，政務官要有肩膀，現在我講的都是你們民進黨的人講的話，你從頭到尾都說尊重，今天修法請你來不就是要問你的看法跟意見嗎？你從頭到尾都說尊重，這個詢答有什麼意義？不能夠逃避，好不好？這個是立場，我如果今天問你政治性口水或什麼東西，你說尊重我都沒有意見。我現在問的是跟你職權有關的政策、議題，沒有什麼尊重不尊重，童子賢、李遠哲都可以大方的對媒體表達他的看法，身為政務官的你，問到跟你職權相關的議題，你居然只能尊重，你一點肩膀都沒有耶！"],["陳主任委員東陽：核安會是安全的主管機關，假設我今天有特定的立場，那麼我做的判斷就不是公正客觀的。"],["葉委員元之：主委，剛剛羅廷瑋也有跟你確認了，今天修法的方向只是把核能延役的一個條件解開而已，以前規定核電廠如果要延役的話，可能要經過幾年的申請，甚至被卡住，現在修法之後讓這個條件放寬，如果台電認為核能必須要使用的話，還是必須經過您的評估，還有台電的申請，才能決定要不要延役，對吧？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["葉委員元之：你反對這個法案的修正嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想安全還是最重要的前提。"],["葉委員元之：我知道安全最重要，我問你反不反對這個法案的修正？"],["陳主任委員東陽：他必須先去檢視它相關的政策……"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！主委，我舉個例子好了，前一段時間我們在討論學生輔導法，教育部來，大家就問它說，對於第一條有沒有意見、對第二條有沒有意見、對第三條有沒有意見，教育部長有沒有跟你一樣，說我尊重、沒有喔，我只是教育單位，跟我無關。教育部來討論修法，就是要表達看法、表達意見，我現在就問你意見，結果你從頭跟我尊重到尾？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想還要看大院委員互相討論是不是可以達到共識。"],["葉委員元之：我現在就是問你，對這個條文你的態度是什麼？以後每個政府機關都學你就好了啊！來跟我們委員討論條文，他從頭尊重到尾，你的態度是什麼嘛？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想我們必須就條文本身具體來討論。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！那你現在對條文哪一條有意見？哪一個文字有意見？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我在報告裡面有提到5個版本……"],["葉委員元之：你說反對就反對！在場很多民進黨立委可能都是反對的，等一下都要表達意見，我現在是問你的態度嘛！"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，我在報告裡面有提到5個版本或有差異，是不是可以合併討論。"],["葉委員元之：合併討論，然後你就支持是不是？"],["陳主任委員東陽：就是看大家可不可以達成共識。"],["葉委員元之：不是，合併討論，你的態度是什麼嘛？好，繼續問主委，本來大家反核的聲音滿大的，之前發生福島核災的時候，反核聲音很大，現在已經非常多人跳出來支持核電了，你知道原因是什麼嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：主要是低碳，要達到2050。"],["葉委員元之：低碳是一個嘛，李遠哲就是這個看法嘛，要淨零碳排嘛，否則人類滅絕嘛！還有沒有別的？"],["陳主任委員東陽：能源需求吧。"],["葉委員元之：能源需求嘛，怕缺電嘛，還有嗎？還有沒有？有很多啦！包括像是國安的問題，因為我們如果大量仰賴天然氣，臺灣並沒有產天然氣，到時候如果被包圍的話，天然氣會進不來，還有電價的問題，因為綠能的電價一度是比較貴的，這個是大家現在開始認為核能可以考慮要使用的原因，當然核安也是非常重要。","對於核電的影響，大家還是要減少它對於環境的影響，當然大家比較擔心的，除了安全之外，還包括核廢，對吧？我給你看一下美國的案例，因為在2022年，當時的原能會有去美國跟他報告，我們核電廠如果要停役之後的處理情況，美國又給了你們一個意見，美國告訴你們說：其實在美國境內運轉中核電廠機組總共有92部，其中78部有獲得他們的主管機關NRC的審查，而且同意延役；換句話說，美國的機組也有延役的經驗，而且分成兩次，一次是運轉執照年限延長到60年，有6部申請再運轉，後來申請又延長到80年，換句話說，他還是有一個審查的過程，讓他的核電廠可以延役，所以延役不是說不可以，在美國的經驗是這樣。美國在審查機組延役的時候，他們會評估什麼？也是一樣評估對於安全跟對環境的影響，他們審查年限的中位數字落在兩年多左右，換句話說，我是要提醒主委，今天這麼多人呼籲沒有停止核電的條件，如果到時候台電要去申請延役，審查其實也是會有一定的時間，可能會有一年到兩年，現在大家一直呼籲、一直呼籲、一直呼籲，可是都聽不進去，等到真的要用的時候，你不是馬上可以用的，更何況我們現在法律還卡在那邊。","第二個，我要提醒主委的是核廢料的問題，我們的核廢料，核一、核二、核三廠所面臨的狀況是完全不一樣的，核一、核二的燃料池都已經滿了，現在是乾式貯存槽都沒有蓋，所以這個部分我希望台電或者是核安會可以積極跟地方政府溝通，看到底問題卡在哪裡，核一廠的乾式貯存槽是已經過了，請一定要如質如實的興建；核二廠問題卡在哪？如果是水保問題，也要去解決，不是就放在那邊；核三廠問題比較簡單，因為它的溼式貯存槽，就是燃料池並沒有滿，所以核三廠如果要延役的話，是一個比較可行的方案。過去地方政府對核一、核二比較有疑慮，是因為我們現在政府一直沒有找到一個永久貯存場，一直沒有找，我上次也在這邊質詢過，給我的感覺是完全沒有在找，丟了一句話說：因為地方有意見，所以就不去找了。感覺就是擺爛啦！我必須要說就是擺爛。難道核電廠不延役，就沒有核廢料嗎？我們看一個資料，不商轉直接除役一樣有核廢料問題，這是核三廠預估兩部機組在除役期間也都會產生低放射性廢棄物，換句話說，大概會有55加侖，約為8萬1,374桶的核廢料，所以核廢料不是停役就不處理啦！不管你要不要停役，不管你要不要延役，不管你要不要再使用，都要積極去處理核廢料問題，第一方面符合地方政府期待；第二，還是會不斷地產生核廢料，也是要去解決，如果要延役的話，更是要解決，所以希望政府拿出你們的執行力，不要遇到這些問題就在擺爛，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝主委，謝謝葉元之委員。接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳春城","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蘇清泉等\n26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具\n「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應\n器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":28.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.190968750000003,"end":30.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.91221875,"end":37.392218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.392218750000005,"end":38.016593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.21909375,"end":44.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.07471875,"end":44.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.49659375,"end":44.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.51346875,"end":44.766593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.766593750000006,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.80034375,"end":59.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.80221875,"end":61.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.27034375,"end":67.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.67846875000001,"end":70.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.07471875,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.13346875,"end":73.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.36534375000001,"end":74.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.97284375000001,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.38971875,"end":88.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.70471875000001,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.13034375000001,"end":101.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.14596875000001,"end":107.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.82846875000001,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.03096875,"end":108.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.55409375,"end":108.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.58784375,"end":108.67221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.67221875000001,"end":109.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.11096875000001,"end":109.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.12784375000001,"end":109.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.16159375000001,"end":109.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.78596875000001,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.13471875,"end":147.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.65346875,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.96971875,"end":151.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.10471875000002,"end":155.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.78346875,"end":183.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.90409375000002,"end":164.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.44534375,"end":183.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.83346875,"end":186.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.73159375,"end":190.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.56659375,"end":194.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.34659375,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.38034375,"end":196.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.54471875000002,"end":195.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.28721875000002,"end":197.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.80596875,"end":213.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.78221875000003,"end":221.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.84846875000002,"end":224.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.31659375,"end":228.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.83534375000002,"end":227.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.78409375,"end":232.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.92284375000003,"end":238.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.94284375,"end":241.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.91721875000002,"end":247.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.93784375,"end":245.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.30034375000002,"end":248.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.88659375,"end":251.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.45159375000003,"end":251.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.50221875000003,"end":251.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.97471875000002,"end":251.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.99159375000002,"end":258.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.00846875000002,"end":252.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.79659375,"end":259.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.20971875000004,"end":266.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.69409375000004,"end":267.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.24221875,"end":268.967843750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。"},{"start":188.282,"end":213.24,"text":"我想這個安全還是最重要的我問你反不反對這個條這個法案的修正那他必須先去解釋他的不是啦主委我舉個例子好了我們前一段時間我們在討論那個學生輔導法那教育部來大家就問他說你對於第一條有沒有意見對第二條有沒有意見第三條有沒有意見教育部長有沒有跟你一樣我尊重我沒有我只是什麼教育單位跟我無關"},{"start":214.847,"end":238.548,"text":"教育部來討論修法就是要表達看法表達意見我現在就問你意見就你從頭跟我尊重到尾我想還要看這個大約我現在就問你說這個條文你的態度是什麼我現在就是問你的條文的態度是什麼那以後每個政府機關都選你就好了啊來跟我們委員討論條文他從頭尊重到尾"},{"start":239.96,"end":267.153,"text":"你的態度是什麼嗎?我想我們必須就條文本身具體的討論那你現在對條文哪一條有意見?哪一個文字有意見?我在報告裡面有提到五個版本你說反對就反對在場很多民進黨立委可能都是反對的等一下都要表達意見我現在是問你的態度嘛是的我在報告裡面有提到五個版本或有差異是不是可以合併討論合併討論然後你就支持是不是?"},{"start":268.431,"end":272.073,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":289.38,"end":299.648,"text":"你知道原因是什麼嗎?主要是低碳嘛要達到2050低碳是一個嘛李遠哲就是這個看法嘛要淨零碳排嘛否則人類滅絕嘛還有沒有別的?能源需求吧能源需求嘛怕缺電嘛還有嗎?還有沒有?"},{"start":309.11,"end":337.584,"text":"有很多啦包括像是國安的問題因為我們如果大量仰賴天然氣台灣並沒有產天然氣所以到時候如果被包圍的話天然氣進不來還有電價的問題因為綠能的電價一度是比較貴的這個是大家現在開始認為核能可以考慮要使用的原因當然核安也是非常重要那當然對於核電的影響大家還是要減少它對於環境的環境的影響那當然大家比較嚴"},{"start":339.005,"end":345.03,"text":"擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員"},{"start":367.051,"end":383.703,"text":"其中78部有獲得他們的主管機關NRC的審查,而且同意研議。換句話說,美國的機組也有研議的經驗,而且分兩次,一次它的運轉執照年限延長到60年,後來有6部再申請再運轉。"},{"start":384.744,"end":405.376,"text":"後來申請就延長到80年。」換句話說他還是有一個審查的過程讓他的核電廠可以研議所以研議不是說不可以在美國的經驗是這樣那美國在審查他們的機組研議的時候他們會評估什麼呢也是一樣評估對於安全跟對環境的影響那他們的審查的"},{"start":406.547,"end":431.124,"text":"年限的中位數字落在兩年多左右。」換句話說我是要提醒主委啦今天這麼多人呼籲說沒有停止核電的條件如果到時候台電要去申請研議的話他的審查的時間其實也是會有一定的時間可能會有一年到兩年所以到時候現在大家一直呼籲一直呼籲一直呼籲都聽不進去等到真的要用的時候"},{"start":432.182,"end":452.3,"text":"你不是馬上可以用的你不是馬上可以用的那更何況我們現在法律還卡在那邊那第二個我要提醒主委的是我們的核廢料的問題我們的核廢料核一、核二、核三廠所面臨的狀況是完全不一樣的核一、核二他們的燃料池都已經滿了現在是乾式儲存槽都沒有蓋所以這個部分"},{"start":454.758,"end":480.469,"text":"我希望台電或者是核安會可以積極跟地方政府溝通,看到底問題卡在哪裡。核一廠的乾式儲存槽是已經過了嘛,那一定要如質如實的興建。核二廠問題卡在哪?如果是水保問題也要去解決,不是就放在那邊。那核三廠問題比較簡單,因為它的私式儲存槽就是燃料池並沒有滿,所以核三廠如果要研議的話是一個比較可行的方案。"},{"start":482.27,"end":501.587,"text":"合一合二現在過去地方政府比較有疑慮是因為我們現在政府一直沒有找到一個永久的儲存場一直沒有找我上次也在這邊質詢過給我的感覺是完全沒有在找丟了一句話說因為地方有意見所以就不去找了感覺就是擺爛啊我必須要說就是擺爛那難道核電廠不研議就沒有核廢料嗎我們看一個資料"},{"start":508.766,"end":520.834,"text":"我們不雙轉直接廚藝一樣有核廢料的問題這是核三廠預估兩部機組在廚藝期間也都會產生低放射性的廢棄物換句話說大概會有55加侖約為81374桶的核廢料所以核廢料"},{"start":527.987,"end":533.852,"text":"第一方面,符合地方政府期待。第二,你還是不斷地產生核廢料,也是要去解決。那如果要演繹的話,更是要解決。所以希望政府拿出你們的執行力,不要遇到這東西就在擺爛了。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154628","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154628","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8035804615df432c1ca0ece664f026f7b7bbd165341284486b927b96357d7ed705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:56:50 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親口說過是很難排除的選項，你現在還是保留這樣子的說法嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，但是我也說有很多的可能性。"],["羅委員廷瑋：就是安全，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我也說有很多的options、很多的可能。"],["羅委員廷瑋：現在還有其他的選項嗎？比如，2050淨零碳排有用其他的替代能源來處理核能的缺口嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：還有一些新科技，在未來還有時間。"],["羅委員廷瑋：新科技大概是哪些呢？地熱嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：氫能、地熱。"],["羅委員廷瑋：新型核能有列入在你們的範圍內嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：新型核能也看，如果是沒有核廢料，我們可以考慮，我們上一次5月29日的報告有提到核融合，但是這個東西在世界上的發展其實還需要一段時間，目前在技術上要達到商業運轉有非常大的困難。"],["羅委員廷瑋：行政院長卓榮泰上個月也說非核家園的年限已經不在，行政院秘書長龔明鑫在擔任國發會主委的時候也說能源政策調整是可以討論的，已經成為了一個選項，對執政黨來說。依照現行核管法規定，延役要在5年前提出已經過了期限，因此卡關，對嗎？核三廠延役有兩種路徑，一個是修改核子反應器設施運轉執照申請審核辦法第十六條，取消執照有效期限屆滿前5年至15年進行換照申請，另一個就是修改核管法第六條，讓延役不受審核辦法的限制。但卓院長之前就說沒有考慮修核管法，也就是不會有院版，在沒有院版的情況下，只好審查幾個委員的版本，所以如今我們才走到這個地步。當然我個人是保留，我覺得要尊重行政主管機關，在所有的探討裡面都要把安全列為最重要，有些人很注重核廢料，我們也尊重，但我希望今天能夠一併探討中部地區所有人用肺發電的問題，是不是一樣重要，讓我們來審慎思考，讓整個法令能夠有所完善，最後尊重主管機關所做的相關能源部署，以上是我們的態度，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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主委我們第一次呢"},{"start":138.456,"end":164.415,"text":"在討論核能研議的一個議題是今年4月您在答詢的上面直接回答核安會不是能源政策的主管機關尊重立法院的決議而在上週經濟部長針對核三是否研議的意見也是尊重立法院的決定立法院怎麼定經濟部怎麼執行那我想詢問一下主委也就是說核安會會尊重經濟部經濟部會尊重立法院沒錯吧"},{"start":166.021,"end":189.324,"text":"今天我們終於要排審法案請問主委您的立場還是如此嗎?是的但是所有的條件都是以安全為前提安全是最重要的啦我能夠認同剛剛有委員所提到的也就是我們的核廢料處理的問題要怎麼去做一個探討但是我覺得應該還中部人一個公道"},{"start":189.904,"end":209.285,"text":"在處理核廢料的一個這個事件上我們要積極的去探討但在處理碳排量影響到中部人的健康是不是能夠一併來檢討而不是核廢料極其重要然後中部人用非發電就不重要我想兩者應該都一樣重要吧"},{"start":210.046,"end":231.629,"text":"主委您覺得呢?是的,這個有好幾個面向,一個是安全,一個是核廢料,一個是空氣污染。那另外我想請問,剛剛我們有提到這個核能延益的問題,我想跟你就叫專業。以世界來說,核能延益在世界有沒有這樣子的案例?非常多,大概60%。"},{"start":233.618,"end":239.402,"text":"二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案﹚"},{"start":257.52,"end":267.942,"text":"不是不是對吧所以我們將這個年限拿掉以後要不要繼續研議是由行政主管機關來做決定是吧"},{"start":269.181,"end":294.121,"text":"是的,但是有前提,剛才我們提到了。安全。我知道。那我需要跟你探討的是,今天我們探討這個法案,不會因為我們立法委員修了這個法,我們就一定要強制用核能來發電,而是還是交由行政主管機關,也就是現在的執政黨所相關的能源政策去做部署、規劃,由你們來決定要不要繼續來研議嗎?是這樣子沒錯吧?"},{"start":297.488,"end":319.616,"text":"還是我過度解讀我剛才提到很多的問題安全要面臨的很多的面向核廢料也要面臨很多的面向那這些有需要一些時間那麼它整個時程是不是可行那麼這個必須要審慎評估所以剛剛我們說了這麼多我們今天只是在探討要不要將這個彈性"},{"start":321.697,"end":349.537,"text":"讓主管機關有機會去拿捏去做一個探討並不是說我們今天把這個法案修了你們就一定要核能發電我想這個部分留有這一個行政主管機關來保有最後的決定權這個是你們的權利對吧但我想在另外請問叫您本身因為核能安全是你的專業那你們有在探討所謂的現在核三原液它的危險"},{"start":350.698,"end":374.778,"text":"是有還是沒有?風險你們內部有做規劃嗎?風險必須看核酸的機組去做安全的檢查目前有檢查過嗎?或者是有探討研議的可能性嗎?目前應該是沒有,台電沒有吧?沒有都沒有研議?也沒有探討過?沒有探討過好,謝謝那我想我要再帶到這個"},{"start":375.979,"end":395.265,"text":"我們現在看到世界的一個發展昨天李遠哲上節目有說這相關的言論你應該很清楚我想這位前輩所提到的雖然核能有其危險的地方但比起面對人類從地球上滅絕這是一個好的選項主委你個人認同這句話嗎?"},{"start":397.219,"end":410.979,"text":"我想我尊重李院長的發言。好,那我想喔,在2050年淨零碳排到底需不需要核能?主委您4月親口說過很難排除的選項,您現在還是保留這樣子的說法嗎?"},{"start":411.553,"end":413.054,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":434.083,"end":461.604,"text":"地熱新型核能有列入在你們的範圍內嗎?新型核能也看嘛如果是沒有這個核廢料那麼我們可以考慮那當然這個這個核融合那當然這個我們上一次報告5月29號有提到這個東西那這個世界上其實發展還需要一段時間目前在技術上有非常大的困難然後就到商業運轉"},{"start":464.053,"end":485.813,"text":"好,我想這個行政院長卓榮泰上次上個月也說非核家園的年限已經不在那行政院秘書長龔明星在擔任國發會的時候也說能源政策調整是可以討論的那已經成為了一個選項對執政黨來說我想依照現行的核管法研議要在五年前提出已經過了此限,因此卡關,對嗎?"},{"start":488.459,"end":517.842,"text":"我想核三場要研議有兩種路徑一個是修改核子反應器設施運轉執照的申請核消申請的辦法第16條讓取消執照有效期限屆滿在5年至15年進行換照的申請另一條就是修改核管法第6條讓研議不受審核辦法的限制但卓院長之前就說好就說沒有考慮修核管法也就是說不會有院版在沒有院版的情況下只要審幾個"},{"start":519.082,"end":527.667,"text":"委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案 案件中的核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案 案件中的核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案 案件中的核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案 案件中的核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案"},{"start":544.978,"end":558.56,"text":"讓整個法令能夠有所完善最後尊重我們主管機關能夠做相關的能源部署這是我們以上的一個態度謝謝接下來請葉元智委員"}]}},{"id":"154627","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154627","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8a7d3e5e08835d443a9bb3959728069a07bbd1653412844861d5aae74ee2210ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:49:16 - 11:04:16","影片長度":"00:15:00","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:49:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:04:16+08:00","duration":900,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":375,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時49分）我們先請國防部長、陸軍參謀長、陸勤部參謀長。"],["主席：請顧部長、陸軍參謀長還有陸勤部參謀長。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。2020年行政院頒布了公務機關使用的產品，包含軟體、硬體服務，都禁止使用大陸廠牌的資通訊產品，對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。剛才我們看到我們馬文君委員、召委，他也提到了貼牌的紀錄器，可以看到行車紀錄器，可以看到最近包含是逆變器、路由器、工業電腦，然後包含華為產品，還有我們的行車紀錄器，也都是內容裡面可能有中國大陸製的。","我們來看一下這一張照片，剛才馬文君委員也有提出，我想請問一下，右邊上角紅色的標籤是什麼？"],["盧次長建中：報告委員，這是我們資訊產品的管制標籤。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，它是你們資訊產品的管制標籤，也就是說，這台行車紀錄器其實是屬於我們國防部所有。我們在淘寶上面可以看到，淘寶上面賣這一臺一模一樣的規格，只要臺幣310塊，而且它還是中國大陸製作的，所以三百多塊我們是不是不僅用到的是中國貨，還被廠商坑錢了？這一點你們要去思考看看喔！","再來請問一下部長，這一個消息被披露之後，請問圖上的這一批現在去哪裡了？"],["劉參謀長青勳：我是陸勤部參謀長，這一批的部分，我們上禮拜五之後，再依據國防部的清查，這一具的部分不在我的列管裡面。因為我上一次的時候……近期委員辦公室主要是對我們110年的購案總共買了……"],["徐委員巧芯：那這個去哪了？"],["劉參謀長青勳：這個基本上要請……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為上面有貼管制標籤，剛剛你們也說了，所以是國防部的財產啊！我隨便一個人可以去貼這種管制標籤嗎？那不就變成違法行為了嗎？我現在問這一批去哪了？"],["劉參謀長青勳：因為這一批不是我們陸勤部所採購的。"],["徐委員巧芯：那誰採購的呢？整個國防……"],["盧次長建中：委員好，我是聯六次長，針對我們上禮拜委員在媒體上所揭露這個行車紀錄器的這個部分，我們也做了一個全軍性的清查，目前我們的確是有查到部分的行車紀錄器。"],["徐委員巧芯：是這一臺嗎？"],["盧次長建中：有沒有這一臺我要……"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在先問這一臺。"],["盧次長建中：報告委員，有沒有這一臺我們要回去再查證。"],["徐委員巧芯：已經都多少天了，你們還沒有查到？"],["盧次長建中：我們針對大陸目前所製的這些行車紀錄器是已經有先下架了，這邊要先跟委員報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：多少臺下架了？"],["盧次長建中：目前下架……我們還有一些沒有查完的是內建在裡面的，這個……"],["徐委員巧芯：目前下架了多少臺？"],["盧次長建中：目前下架了大概是800部。"],["徐委員巧芯：800部啊？"],["盧次長建中：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那這個還沒找到？"],["盧次長建中：我跟委員報告，這一部我們當初是沒有看到這個資訊，但是我們下架的裡面有沒有含這一部，我們要回去查證。"],["徐委員巧芯：要回去查證，請給我答案好嗎？"],["盧次長建中：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為我們買的……通常啦，我不去講說是跟我們辦公室聯絡的這一臺，通常我們買大概是兩千多塊錢，通常的價格是這樣。結果人家淘寶上賣310塊，我們這不是很明顯被廠商坑了嗎？我們還用了中國貨，然後又被廠商坑錢，這是很不得了的事情欸！","再來你們要去清查喔，上面那張的這一款，是不是在消息披露之後，有人員去把它轉移到了輕型戰術輪車上使用？可不可以去搜尋這個訊息？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有沒有查過了？"],["陳參謀長建義：這個行車紀錄器並不是配附在這部……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，它是領了、用了，領了、用了，我知道，但請問有沒有這一臺？它後來有沒有被轉移到輕型戰術輪車上使用，你們有沒有查？"],["陳參謀長建義：誠如剛剛聯六次長跟委員說明的，只要是陸製的被我們查到，目前是全面下架。"],["徐委員巧芯：那有沒有查嘛！"],["陳參謀長建義：委員說的……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個。"],["陳參謀長建義：這個是不是在我們下架的裡面，我們現在要求證之後……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是……對，然後你要去查什麼？"],["陳參謀長建義：不會去轉用。"],["徐委員巧芯：這一批如果還沒有被查到，有沒有被移到輕型戰術輪車上，用領用的方式去處理？這個你要去查，可以嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：可以就好。回到剛才講的這個互暢公司，這個是互暢公司110年的時候，總計畫將近300萬的統籌案。我們看一下它官網裡面寫的跟行車紀錄器是沒有什麼關係的。","再下一張，其實剛才馬召委已經告訴大家了，他們彼此之間的關係是由義坤來進口，許張月桃他們是母子的關係，報關進口之後供貨給互暢，互暢再投標給陸勤部，然後來做這個統籌案。","我們再看下一張，我問部長，這兩個互暢跟義坤金屬工業公司，看起來像是MIT行車紀錄器的製造廠商嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這應該是一般的……沒有像是一個製造工廠的樣態。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們買的時候，我們都不用查廠？"],["劉參謀長青勳：跟您報告，這一批是我們當初在110年所採購的，總共是1,321個……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道。"],["劉參謀長青勳：這一塊的話，當初基本上對廠商資格的限定並沒有說它必須要自製。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們沒有要自製？"],["劉參謀長青勳：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你要如何檢查它是不是MIT或MIC？"],["劉參謀長青勳：我們有廠商的資格，還有相關的一個……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以是他說的算？"],["劉參謀長青勳：我們有去查察，因為當初的時候，這1,300個……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們沒有查廠？"],["劉參謀長青勳：我們當初的時候有這個履約的小組，最後……那些統統都有。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們去這裡看過，也去過那裡看過？"],["劉參謀長青勳：因為它沒有在那邊製造，它沒有在這個場地製造。"],["徐委員巧芯：它沒有在這個場地製造，那你知道它在哪裡製造嗎？"],["劉參謀長青勳：他當初交貨的地點有我們臺灣還有馬來西亞。"],["徐委員巧芯：臺灣？是臺灣的哪一家，所以他的前面是誰交貨給他？誰交貨給互暢，互暢再賣給你們？你們這兩千多萬的行車紀錄器，你們有沒有問？"],["劉參謀長青勳：這個是300萬。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是啦！"],["劉參謀長青勳：這次我們買的……這個議題裡面的這1,321部是300萬。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你有沒有問嘛！我就問說，你今天跟互暢買有沒有這件事？"],["劉參謀長青勳：有。"],["徐委員巧芯：你也知道了，不是由互暢製作的嘛！他是進口商、是貿易商嘛！"],["劉參謀長青勳：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：那是誰賣給他的？你有在意這件事嗎？有去查嗎？如果你沒有去查，你怎麼知道他給你的東西不是貼牌的？就不知道了嘛！","我時間真的很不夠，來，我問一下，你們知不知道這家互暢廠商跟我們剛剛講的義坤廠商被列過多少次的黑名單紀錄？"],["劉參謀長青勳：基本上我們都知道這一塊，但是就政府採購法……"],["徐委員巧芯：他們是不是被列黑名單？"],["劉參謀長青勳：它有這個所謂的廠商資格限制，對於不合格廠商有3個月會……"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，被列黑名單紀錄的，我們國防部來跟他們採購，你覺得合理嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我剛剛已經說了，如果我們查到的這個結果，比如說像有地址，或者是有這些剛剛講的母子或什麼關係的話，我想我下去會來檢討我們整個採購……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們會檢討？我給你看這件事情多嚴重。"],["顧部長立雄：因為這個案子……"],["徐委員巧芯：採購的時候，採購拒絕往來生效日是110年的 4月8號，看得到嗎？右邊陸軍後勤指揮部是什麼時候採購的？本案於110年4月8號下訂，你把它列為拒絕廠商黑名單的同時，你跟人家下訂，有這種道理？有這種事情？你們都不知道？回答一下好不好？所有人都不講話是什麼意思啊？"],["劉參謀長青勳：我們這個這個案子是在這個之前就已經得標了。"],["徐委員巧芯：得標了沒有錯啊！但是它已經被列為拒絕廠商了，你們沒有任何處理的方式嗎？"],["劉參謀長青勳：因為它後來是在4月7號的時候，開始在拒絕往來的名單裡面。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是嘛！"],["劉參謀長青勳：在它之前的時候，我們就已經完成公開招標了。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們沒有解約的一些相關方式嗎？不可能吧！不要騙我們沒有看過政府採購法。我說它4月8號被列為黑名單，你們的報告單上面寫說，在4月8號下訂，這跟國人交代得過去嗎？部長，您是新任的部長，我不跟你追究，但是這個事情你有沒有覺得應該要查，而且很嚴重？"],["顧部長立雄：我下去會來瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：是吧，這是很嚴重的事情吧！都被列拒絕廠商了，然後你還當天跟他下訂，代表你們整個國防部裡面，前後你們是搞不清楚狀況，或者是有人在貪贓枉法。我不想直接去定義說有人在貪贓枉法，但是這件事情非常地奇怪。"],["顧部長立雄：我想這個案子既然在110年那個時候，我想我們就把這個案子調出來，重新檢視一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：再來，我們跟陸軍這裡在詢問的時候，我們得到的、來的、送給我們看的實品是長這樣，跟我們剛剛來的那一臺不一樣。來，請問為什麼給我們看的所有包含你們給我們的照片上面都沒有管制標籤？"],["劉參謀長青勳：針對這一臺，我們在禮拜一的晚上1800到委員辦公室說明的時候，因為這一臺基本上目前是一個備品，並沒有說……它是有標籤在盒子上面。"],["徐委員巧芯：盒子上？不用貼在上面？"],["劉參謀長青勳：因為目前這一臺……"],["徐委員巧芯：別臺都要貼在上面，這一臺不用？"],["劉參謀長青勳：因為它在它的盒子裡面。"],["徐委員巧芯：盒子裡面？在哪裡？"],["劉參謀長青勳：因為你沒有拍到那一段，後來你提醒我們的時候，我們去檢查的時候確實是有的。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問一下，為什麼前面的要貼在行車紀錄器上，而這個不用？道理在哪裡？"],["劉參謀長青勳：確實單位可能沒有把它貼上去，但是我們後來去檢查單位，這一個拿去跟委員辦公室……"],["徐委員巧芯：貼在盒子上幹嘛？"],["劉參謀長青勳：在它那個盒子上面的地方，我們會做調整，因為我們是整個盒子拿過去……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們都會調整？你的意思是你們都會調整？最後拜託召委再給我1分鐘時間，你們所給我的這份清單上，關於當初你們的計畫清單，就是最後決標的這一份，因為我時間不夠，很抱歉，我沒有放在上面，你們有給我一份這個行車紀錄器的計畫清單，但是我也有拿到一份舊的，就是還沒有決標時的計畫清單，上面寫得很清楚，本採購屬於經濟部投審會公告具敏感性或國安（含資安）疑慮業務之範疇的服務採購，廠商不得為大陸地區廠商、第三地區含陸資成分廠商及在臺陸資廠商，經濟部投審會公告的資訊服務業者都有公開，都不可以使用，但是你們最後決標是怎麼寫的，你知道嗎？我念給你聽，你們最後決標的時候寫說，本案禁止使用中國大陸地區產品或僱用中國大陸地區人士等等……可以終止契約，惟非屬採購清單主體之周邊配件，如電池、電源、線材等應無違顧慮，且產地限制取得不易，故不在此限。我最後詢問一下顧部長，合約上寫這樣，你們最後的清單上寫這樣，你覺得合理嗎？如果我剛剛講的不清楚的話，需要我再念一次嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我剛剛聽起來應該是說它沒有涉及資通訊產品的部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，所以意思是說，這裡面的配件，包括電池、電源、線材可以不在此限，意思就是使用中國大陸製的零件的行車紀錄器是可以的，請問是可以的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：問題是現在的標案應該都一律禁止大陸製的產品。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！但你們上面是這樣寫啊！部長，我需要拿給你看嗎？這是你們給我的資料。"],["顧部長立雄：這可能是之前的。"],["徐委員巧芯：110年嘛！對不對？所以你們要去清查後續情況，因為後來規定改了，改了之後，你們還繼續用嘛！所以你們應該要清查，我不管這是後來才改的規定還是怎麼樣，但既然規定已經改了，是不是過往的你們也要全面清查，看看有沒有類似的情況，如果有的話就要下架，部長，你同意嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我去清查一下，包括委員剛剛講的這個110年的個案，另外就是看什麼時候改的這些相關採購規定。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，部長，我再跟你講一次，我會跟你講更清楚一點。在原本還沒有決標的計畫清單上面，很明確寫到說不可以，因為是屬於資安疑慮範疇，所以不可以使用大陸相關的用品。但是到了最後決標的時候，那幾條規定被拿掉了，部長，如果有需要，事後我可以給你資料，因為今天時間不夠，我時間已經到了，超過很久了，部長，給你多少時間，你可以完成全部的清查？給我們一個時間吧！"],["顧部長立雄：你是說……"],["徐委員巧芯：整個行車紀錄器的事情，包含馬召委剛剛問的，包含剛剛提到的管制清單，包含我剛剛所說的一切，你們需要多久時間可以查明真相？至少給我們一個書面報告做說明吧！"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，我們會確實把案情釐清和詳查，是不是兩個禮拜跟你報告？"],["徐委員巧芯：好，兩個禮拜，謝謝。"],["陳參謀長建義：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。剛剛提供給徐巧芯委員的那一臺沒有查，是因為你們只查行政車輛，沒有查戰術車輛，相關的規定，陸製產品很早就有規定了，沒關係，這個部分你們到時候一併查完後再……"],["陳參謀長建義：基本上是全查……"],["主席：好，沒關係，到時候再提供相關的資料好了。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員。鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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ext":"剛才我們看到的是馬文君委員趙偉提到了貼牌的記錄器可以看到行車記錄器可以看到最近包含是逆變器、路由器、工業電腦然後包含華為產品還有我們的行車記錄器也都是內容裡面可能有中國大陸製的"},{"start":52.449,"end":52.769,"text":"管制的標籤"},{"start":65.163,"end":83.207,"text":"報告委員這是我們的這個資訊產品的管制標籤對對它是你們資訊產品的管制標籤也就是說這台行車紀錄器其實是屬於我們國防部所有好那我們在淘寶上面可以看到淘寶上面賣這一台一模一樣的規格只要台幣310塊而且呢它還是中國大陸製作的"},{"start":87.268,"end":102.889,"text":"所以300多塊我們是不是不僅用到的是中國貨還被廠商坑錢了這一點你們要去思考看看喔再來請問一下部長這一個消息被披露之後請問圖上的JP現在去哪裡了"},{"start":106.189,"end":106.409,"text":"那這個去拿了嗎?"},{"start":128.331,"end":142.029,"text":"因為上面有貼管制標籤剛剛你們也說啦所以是國防部的財產啊我隨便一個人我可以去貼這種管制標籤嗎那就變違法行為啊我現在要問這一批去哪啦因為這一批不是我們陸行部所採購的"},{"start":143.208,"end":170.865,"text":"那誰採購的呢?整個國防部?委員好,我是連六次長。針對我們上禮拜啊,這個委員您所在媒體上所揭露的這個行車記錄器的這個部分,我們也做了一個全軍性的一個清查。那目前我們的確是有查到部分的行車記錄器。這是這一台嗎?我現在先問這一台嗎?對,報委員,有沒有這一台我們要回去再查證。已經都多少天了,你們還沒有查到?"},{"start":171.645,"end":189.361,"text":"我們針對大陸的這些目前所製的這些行車記錄器我們是已經有先下架了這邊要先跟委員報告多少台下架了目前下架我們還有一些還沒有查完的是內建在裡面的這個目前下架了多少台目前下架大概是800部800部啊對好那這個還沒找到"},{"start":192.634,"end":211.491,"text":"我跟委員報告這一部我們當初是沒有看到這個資訊但是我們下架的裡面有沒有含這一部我們要回去查證要回去查證請給我答案好嗎是的因為呢我們買的通常啦我不去講說是跟這個我們辦公室聯絡的這一台通常我們買大概兩千多塊錢啦通常的價格是這樣"},{"start":212.091,"end":238.258,"text":"啊結果人家淘寶上賣310塊我們這不是很明顯被廠商坑了嗎我們還用了中國貨然後又被廠商坑錢這是很不得了的事情欸再來你們要去清查喔這一款等一下上面那張這一款是不是在消息披露之後有人員去把它轉移到了輕型戰車的輪速輪車上使用可不可以去搜尋這個訊息"},{"start":240.801,"end":263.383,"text":"報告委員：你們有沒有查過了這個洗車紀錄器它並不是這個紀錄器配附在這部對它是領了用了領了用了我知道但請問有沒有這一台它後來有沒有被轉移到輕型戰術輪車上使用你們有沒有查如剛剛連六次長跟委員說明的只要是錄製的我們查到目前全面都下降那有沒有查嗎"},{"start":265.406,"end":287.094,"text":"委員說的這個這個是不是現在我們下架的裡面我們下去求證之後跟委員說的對然後你要去查什麼這一批這一批如果他們還沒有被查到有沒有被移到了輕型戰術輪車上用領用的方式去處理這個你要去查可以嗎是的好可以齁"},{"start":287.574,"end":313.575,"text":"好那回到剛才講的這個護唱公司齁這個護唱公司110年的時候總計劃將近300萬的重酬案我們看一下他的官網裡面喔他的官網裡面呢其實寫的跟行車紀錄其實沒有什麼關係的在下一張其實剛才馬昭偉已經告訴大家了他們彼此之間的關係由易坤來進口許章、岳陶他們是母子的關係報關進口之後供貨給護唱護唱再投標給陸軍"},{"start":317.398,"end":318.359,"text":"所以我們買的時候我們都不用查倉"},{"start":348.066,"end":351.368,"text":"這一批我們在當初這個110年所採購的總共是1321個那這一塊的話當初的是基本上產商資格限定並沒有說他必須要自製"},{"start":363.777,"end":382.511,"text":"那你們沒有要自治那你要如何檢查他是不是MIT或MIC那我們的廠商的資格還有這個相關的一個所以他說的算那還有我沒有去查一查因為當初的時候是1325我們當初的時候有這個旅院的小組最後最後對商品檢驗通通都有那所以你們去過這裡看過也去過這裡看過"},{"start":385.233,"end":399.526,"text":"因為他沒有在那裏製造,他沒有在這個場地製造他沒有在這個場地製造,那你知道他在哪裏製造嗎?他當初說他的交貨地點,我們台灣還有馬來西亞台灣?台灣的哪一家?所以他的前面是誰交貨給他?誰交貨給護唱,護唱再賣給你們?你們在兩千多萬的行車記錄器裏面你們有沒有問?"},{"start":409.148,"end":436.13,"text":"這個是300萬這個議題裡面是1321部是300萬好 你有沒有問嘛我就問說你今天跟護唱嘛有沒有這件事嘛有那護唱你也知道了不是由護唱製作的嘛他是進口商嘛他是貿易商嘛那誰賣給他的你有在意這件事嗎有去查嗎那如果你沒有去查你怎麼知道他給你的東西不是貼牌的"},{"start":437.677,"end":463.774,"text":"就不知道了嘛好我時間真的很不夠來我問一下你們知不知道這家護唱廠商跟我們剛剛講的益坤廠商被列過多少次的黑名單記錄就基本上我們都知道這一塊但是就政府採購他們是不是被列黑名單他有這個所謂的廠商資格限制對不合格廠方他有三個月或不合格的時間部長被列黑名單記錄的我們國防部來跟他們採購你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":465.403,"end":491.157,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛已經說了如果我們查到的這個結果比如說像有地址或者是有這一些剛剛講的母子或這些關係的話我想我下去我會來檢討我們整個採購你們會檢討我給你看這件事情多嚴重來採購的時候採購拒絕往來生肖日是110年的4月8號看得到嗎"},{"start":492.406,"end":512.767,"text":"右邊陸軍後勤指揮部採購的時候是什麼本案於110年4月8號下定你把它列為拒絕廠商的黑名單的同時你跟人家下定有這種道理有這種事情你們都不知道"},{"start":515.714,"end":515.814,"text":"不是嗎?"},{"start":537.796,"end":558.824,"text":"在他之前的時候我們就已經完成公開報告了你們沒有解約相關的一些方式嗎?不可能吧不要騙我們沒有看過政府採購法欸我說他4月8號被列為黑名單你們的報告單上面寫說在4月8號下訂這跟國人交代得過去嗎?部長"},{"start":562.075,"end":587.873,"text":"這個您是新任的部長,我不跟您追究,但是這個事情你有沒有覺得應該要查,而且很嚴重。我下去回來了解。是吧,這是很嚴重的事情吧。你都被列拒絕廠商了,然後你還當天跟他下定,代表你們整個國防部裡面你們前後你們是搞不清楚狀況,或者是有人在貪贓枉法。我不想直接去定義說有人貪贓枉法,但是這件事情非常的奇怪。"},{"start":589.226,"end":609.58,"text":"我想這個案子竟然在110年那個時候,那我想我們就把這個案子調出來,重新檢視一下。好,再來,我們跟陸軍這裡在詢問的時候,我們得到的,來的,送給我們看的食品是長這樣,跟我們剛剛來的那台不一樣。來,請問為什麼給我們看的所有的,包含你們給我們的照片上面都沒有管制標籤?"},{"start":612.876,"end":628.073,"text":"這一台這個在禮拜一的晚上要把東東到委員辦公室說明的時候啊因為這一台基本上目前是一個備品並沒有說它是有標籤在盒子上面盒子上不用貼在上面因為目前這一台的話它別台都要貼在上面這一台不用"},{"start":628.593,"end":630.896,"text":"請問一下為什麼前面的要貼在就是我們要貼在的是行車記錄器像這個不用嗎?"},{"start":645.316,"end":646.437,"text":"我最後要講一下你們所給我的"},{"start":672.535,"end":693.664,"text":"這份清單上面關於當初這個你們的計劃清單就是最後決標的這一份因為抱歉我時間不夠我沒有放在上面你們有給我們一份是這個行車紀錄器它的計劃清單但是呢我們有拿到一份舊的就是還沒有決標的時候的計劃清單"},{"start":694.844,"end":716.989,"text":"他上面寫得很清楚本採購屬於經濟部投審會公告具敏感性或國安資安疑慮業務之範疇的服務採購廠商不得為大陸地區廠商第三地區廠商含陸資成分廠商及經濟部投審會公告的資訊服務業者都有公開都不可以使用"},{"start":717.609,"end":741.262,"text":"但是你們在最後決標裡面你們怎麼寫的你知道嗎我唸給你聽你們最後決標的時候寫說本案禁止使用中國大陸地區產品或僱用中國大陸地區人士等等的那可以終止契約為非屬採購清單主體之周邊配件如電池、電源、線材等因無違密故慮且產地"},{"start":746.825,"end":768.038,"text":"我最後詢問一下我們的顧部長你們在合約上面寫這樣你們在最後的這個清單上寫這樣你覺得合理嗎需要我再念一次嗎如果我剛講不清楚的話我剛聽起來的話應該是說他沒有涉及自通訊產品的這個部對所以他的意思是說這個裡面的配件、電池、電源、線材"},{"start":769.019,"end":772.562,"text":"對阿但你們上面是這樣寫阿部長我需要拿給你看嗎這是你們給我的資料"},{"start":789.458,"end":814.016,"text":"這之前啊?還是之前?110年嘛!對不對?所以你們要去清查後續因為後來規定改了嘛改了之後你們還在繼續用嘛所以你們應該要去清查我不管是後來才改的規定還是怎麼樣的但既然規定已經改了你們是不是過往的你們就要全面去清查說有沒有類似的這個情況如果有的話要下架嘛部長您同意嗎?"},{"start":815.522,"end":829.321,"text":"我去清查一下,剛剛委員講了110年的這個個案,然後另外就是說看什麼時候去改這個相關的這些規定。部長,我再跟你講一次,我再跟你講更清楚一點,在原本的"},{"start":831.323,"end":858.36,"text":"另外一個還沒有決標的計劃清單上面他很明確的寫到說不可以他是屬於資安一律範疇所以不可以使用大陸相關的這個用品但是你到了最後決標的時候那幾條被拿掉了部長如果有需要我事後可以給你看資料因為我今天時間不夠所以是不是最後因為我時間已經到了超過很久了部長多少時間給你可以完成全部的清查給我們一個時間吧"},{"start":860.031,"end":876.409,"text":"您是說...所有整件事情,整個行車記錄器的事情,包含馬昭偉剛剛問的,包含剛剛那個管制清單,包含這個,包含是我剛剛所說的一切,你們需要多久的時間可以查出來,查明真相,至少給我們一個書面報告做說明吧。馬昭偉,呃,我們..."},{"start":881.294,"end":881.554,"text":"徐巧芯委員"}]}},{"id":"154626","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154626","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f801fd48b85b034263a39103cf15d5982f7bbd1653412844862ed63b081278be015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:50:06 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11:00:54","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:50:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T11:00:54+08:00","duration":648,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":508,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時50分）謝謝主席。我請楊總裁。"],["主席（郭委員國文）：有請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：王委員好！"],["王委員鴻薇：總裁好！今天我們討論有關於我們中央銀行推出數位貨幣的政策、期程，還有現在整個準備的進度，我其實已經看了整個報告，不過我還是要請問總裁，以中央銀行的立場來講，現在我們的CBDC有沒有一個大概可以上路的時間？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還沒有很明確地去決定我們要什麼時候上路，還沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是我看到其他國家，待會我也會講一下，他們也是在做一些準備……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是他們會宣布比如在2年內來決議要不要做，比如他們是不是2026或2025來決定，告訴大家到底會不會推CBDC，我們可以對外做一個這樣子的，因為這樣子也比較好，這樣子是你們有一個期程啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得這個有好處，但是也有不好的地方，為什麼？因為你如果說2年來決定，到2年要決定的時候，你說你不發行，但是全球都在發行的當中，剛剛我也講了，CBDC很重要的一個功能在它的cross-border，cross-border的時候，也就是要兩個國家之間CBDC可以來互轉……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以……"],["楊總裁金龍：你如果2年以後決定你不發……"],["王委員鴻薇：我不要做，結果別人都在做……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊！但是大家都在做的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：總裁，我聽你這樣的講法，就是未來我們會不會做CBDC當然有很多的考慮……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：其中一個就是它夠不夠國際化……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：如果世界各國主要國家都已經上路了，就算我們央行不願意，但是這個情勢使然，我們也要上車，是這個意思嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我們如果這樣子講的時候，人家又會說中央銀行好像很保守，它是被動的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我有看到剛才李彥秀委員的……"],["楊總裁金龍：人家會做這樣的質疑，所以我們還是說……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你到底是保守……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：還是有一點保守？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我跟委員報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：你很中立。"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，貨幣體系的改革必須要……"],["王委員鴻薇：茲事體大。"],["楊總裁金龍：它是要謹慎的，我只能這麼說。"],["王委員鴻薇：好啦！總裁，所以你認為你並不保守。"],["楊總裁金龍：我不保守。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，但是你會謹慎。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，這是你的態度。另外，在你們的報告裡面有提到，你可能會先行做一些試辦，特別提到政府的押標金部分，所以我請問一下，像世界各國也都不會全面性實施，它大概都會選擇一些，就是有所謂的試驗……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：在這個報告裡面特別講到政府的押標金部分，所以未來是不是有可能在這個部分先行試辦？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，反而委員應該要問，我們會不會就數位券的這個部分來做試驗？因為雖然押標金也是一個很好的構想，但是它要有一個前提，它有什麼前提呢？也就是我們商業銀行的存款必須要代幣化，這個工程會比較大，數位券的這個工程比較簡單，所以如果我們要試驗，我們是從這一步踏出去的話，對我們來講，第一個、比較有信心，第二個、比較容易做。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以確實有這樣的一個構想，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為世界各國，像美國、英國、歐盟、日本、韓國，確實都有很具體的一些進程，包含中國大陸，他們也開始有一些所謂的試點，包含一般的大眾或者企業，所以我才問我們的試點會不會放在政府的押標金？前不久央行提出有關抑制房價的信用管制措施，可是以最新的即時房價指數，即今年第二季，並跟去年第二季比較，全臺灣的年增率漲幅仍然高達9.5%。也就是說，我們一直要打房，雖然總裁說不是打房，是打炒房，隨便，總之就是要抑制房價，因為這兩年房價實在飆升太多。可是以第二季的數字來說，看起來房價依然在飆升！即便跟前一季，也就是拿今年的第二季與第一季比較，全臺灣的漲幅也高達了4.7%，其中新北市達到6.3%，新竹縣市達到6.8%。我想請教總裁，對於中央銀行所提出來的打房措施，到目前為止，你感到滿意嗎？你感覺到有收到成效嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，中央銀行必須要做我們該做的事情……"],["王委員鴻薇：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：且行政院健全房地產市場方案是各部會所要共同努力的目標。剛剛委員講到房價飆漲，事實上我們看了也都很警惕……"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有心驚膽跳？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們是很警惕的。但我還是一直強調，房價並不是中央銀行法的經營目標，但是……"],["王委員鴻薇：穩定物價才是你們的目標？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，而是房價是不是會導致泡沫，進而讓我們的金融業、銀行業因房價下跌後沒辦法承受相關損失，導致影響到金融穩定……"],["王委員鴻薇：總裁，你講的我一半同意，一半不同意。同意的部分，沒有錯，其實我們有很多政策可用，並非只有央行的信用管制措施才能收到成效。比如新青安，現在幾乎可以確定新青安就是這兩年助長房價非常重要的推手，讓我們非常擔心五年之後會出現問題。我昨天聽說某個企業的新婚員工夫妻，老婆以新青安貸了房子，先生說感覺好便宜，所以先生也趕快再去貸了新青安。明明他們只要買一棟房，結果卻因為新青安讓他們可以再去投資另一棟房，可見新青安確實有問題，不過現在新青安也在做整頓。另外像房地合一稅，鑑於當時的炒房，所以希望大家不要轉手太過頻繁，後來發生什麼狀況？飆得最兇的都是新建案，因為五年以內的房子不會釋出，畢竟稅實在太重了，導致新建案飆升。我們常常在講，這就像防水一樣，把這條堵住了，但水就是這麼多，所以我其實某個程度同意召委剛才所講的，錢就是這麼多，你這裡堵住了，它就往另外一個水道去，導致整個漲起來，可見裡面確實有很多問題。如果今天中央銀行採取這麼多措施，但我們仍然看到房價指數繼續飆升，大家就會認為政府打房是打假的，是不是還不夠力？即便有打出來，也恐怕沒有對症下藥。現在央行降低有些區域的第二間房的貸款成數，所以我們接到很多陳情，不是建商告買房的人、就是買房的人告建商，彼此互告。因為買房時不曉得貸款成數會變得這麼低，所以我當時跟央行協調。這個措施我支持，但是實施點要考慮，畢竟買房子時並不知道貸款成數會降得那麼低，結果現在在現場第一線產生了很多的困擾及爭議。","我剩最後一點時間，我覺得很重要的是，日元貶值，到目前我等了老半天只有1家車商，我也不要幫它做廣告，我覺得它本來就應該降價，但是它至少降價開第一槍。日系產品沒有人降價耶！怎麼會這樣？以前起碼要喝咖啡呀。我也公開喊話：「經濟部，你趕快去請這些廠商喝咖啡」，咖啡錢我來出，沒有問題。怎麼會這樣子？日元都已經貶到地板上了，結果我們所有的家電、女生的化粧品、家用用品、服飾，給我講一些有的、沒有的理由，就是不肯降價，很不合理，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：嗯。"],["王委員鴻薇：我上次也有問過總裁，總裁很關心這個事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：你可不可以跟經濟部部長講一下，怎麼會這樣子呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我也覺得它是不合理的。"],["王委員鴻薇：很不合理嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我也覺得不合理。"],["王委員鴻薇：你會不會跟經濟部部長講？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我來跟他溝通一下。"],["王委員鴻薇：你要跟他講喔，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。我們休息10分鐘。","休息（11時）","繼續開會（11時11分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接著請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.50346875,"end":3.2878437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.45659375,"end":4.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.83096875,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.906593750000003,"end":15.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.73346875,"end":28.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.70721875,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.02659375,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.34721875,"end":41.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.25784375,"end":33.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.10034375,"end":48.29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border"},{"start":108.387,"end":110.147,"text":"所以總裁我這樣聽你的講法就是說未來我們會不會做CBDC當然有很多的一些考慮但是其中一個就是它夠不夠國際化"},{"start":134.873,"end":154.115,"text":"如果世界各國,這主要國家都已經上路了,那就算我們銀行不願意,但是情勢所然,我們也要上車,是這個意思吧?當然,你如果說這樣子講的時候,我也覺得說中央銀行好像就是說它是很保守,它是被動的。"},{"start":155.436,"end":159.517,"text":"我剛有看到剛才的離人卻委員所以你到底是保守呢還是有一點保守你很中立事實上貨幣體系的一個改革它是要謹慎的"},{"start":179.249,"end":179.289,"text":"王鴻薇"},{"start":209.269,"end":209.589,"text":"會不會就這個數位券的這個部分來做試驗?"},{"start":231.304,"end":241.597,"text":"因為押標金這個也是一個很好的過程但是他要有一個前提他有什麼前提呢也就是說我們商業銀行的存款呢必須要代幣化那這個工程會比較大"},{"start":247.462,"end":265.482,"text":"那這個數位券的這個工程比較簡單所以如果說我們要試驗然後我們是從這一步踏出去的話也許對我們來講的話第一個我們比較有信心第二個比較容易做"},{"start":266.124,"end":270.825,"text":"所以確實有這樣的一個構成對不對?是是是是我覺得世界各國因為確實大家都已經美國、英國、歐盟、日本、韓國其實都有很具體的一些進程他們的時間包含中國大陸他們也開始有一些包含一般的大眾或者企業他有所謂的試點所以我才講說我們的試點會不會放在一個政府的押標金然後呢總裁"},{"start":295.029,"end":313.749,"text":"因為我們前不久提出了我們有關於就是要抑制房價的這個信用管制可是我們看到最新的有關於及時房價的指數那麼以今年第二季來看那事實上如果跟去年第二季來比較"},{"start":314.73,"end":333,"text":"全台灣這樣子的年增率仍然高達9.5%的漲幅所以也就是說我們一直要打房當然你說不是打房是打炒房隨便啦就是要抑制房價因為這兩年房價實在飆升的太多"},{"start":333.8,"end":350.84,"text":"可是看起來如果以第二季的數字來說房價依然在飆升即便跟前一季也就是今年的第二季跟第一季的比較全台灣的漲幅也高達了4.7%其中新北市達到6.3%新竹縣市達到6.8%"},{"start":354.804,"end":373.281,"text":"所以我想請教總裁你對於我們中央銀行所提出來的打房的措施到目前為止你感到滿意嗎?你感到有收到成效嗎?我跟委員報告就是說中央銀行必須要"},{"start":375.134,"end":397.281,"text":"必須要做我們該做的事情但是行政院的一個健全房地產市場的一個方案這是各部會的共同要努力的目標所以也就是說剛剛委員在講到說這個房價飆漲事實上我們看了我們也都是很警惕的"},{"start":397.941,"end":398.662,"text":"有沒有心驚膽跳?穩定物價才是你們的目標?"},{"start":414.437,"end":435.827,"text":"您的房價是不是會導致它泡沫而讓我們的金融業我們的銀行業呢因為他房價下跌了以後呢他沒辦法承受那些的損失然後導致這個金融的穩定總裁你講的話我一半同意啊一半不同意"},{"start":436.947,"end":465.976,"text":"同意的部分沒有錯其實我們很多的政策不是只有央行的信用管制的措施才能夠收到成效比如說像新青安現在幾乎都可以確定新青安就是這兩年助長房價的一個非常重要的推手而且我們非常擔心五年之後問題就會出現我昨天還在聽說某一個企業的員工夫婦兩個人新婚結果新青安呢"},{"start":467.016,"end":478.689,"text":"老婆去帶了一個房子買了一個房子後來先生說感覺好便宜然後先生也趕快再去帶了新清安就是說明明他們只要買一棟房結果他們因為新清安讓他可以去投資一棟房"},{"start":484.555,"end":496.264,"text":"新青安確實有問題但是現在新青安也在做一些整頓另外其實像我們房地合一歲當然希望當時草房不要大家的轉手太過頻繁但是它發生什麼狀況呢現在"},{"start":500.407,"end":500.927,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":520.939,"end":521.139,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":542.489,"end":542.849,"text":"現在呢﹖我們就接到很多的陳情﹖"},{"start":560.815,"end":570.949,"text":"不是建商告買房的人買房的人告建商互相告啊因為他當時去買房的時候他不曉得他貸款成數會變這麼低所以其實我當時有跟央行來協調"},{"start":573.821,"end":591.447,"text":"這個措施我支持但是你的實施點你要考慮到當時他去買這個房子的時候他不知道他貸款成數會降那麼低結果現在在現場第一線產生了很多的一些困擾跟爭議好我剩最後一點時間來我覺得很重要的"},{"start":592.367,"end":612.842,"text":"日圓貶值到目前我等了老半天只有一家車商我也不要幫他做廣告啦我覺得他本來就應該降價但他至少降價開第一槍日系產品沒有人降價欸啊怎麼會這樣以前起碼要喝咖啡啊啊我也公開喊話我說經濟部你趕快去請這些廠商喝咖啡咖啡錢我來出沒有問題"},{"start":613.863,"end":635.011,"text":"怎麼會這樣子日圓都已經扁到這個地板上了結果我們所有的家電啦我們女生的這個化妝品啦什麼就是家用用品啦服飾啊給我講一些有的沒有的理由就是不肯降價很不合理對不對我上次也有問過總裁啊總裁很關心這個事情你可以跟經濟部長講一下"},{"start":636.732,"end":648.404,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"154625","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154625","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8a78badc000d1961ca39103cf15d5982f90a5faf2fa6890fc356d507e2e3f6be45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:38:04 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10:49:49","影片長度":"00:11:45","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:38:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:49:49+08:00","duration":705,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":425,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時38分）謝謝主席，有請彭主委。彭主委，你直接上來，沒關係啦。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：主委好。主委，我想今天請你做專題報告的重點其實在扶植金融科技業啦，在你的報告當中沒有看到機器人理財，我是覺得有點失望，我以為你會以這個為重點，因為之前您就已經對外有一些政策宣示方向了。不過以金融科技業的這個定義來看的話，透過資訊或網路科技來輔助金融機構或提升金融服務，這個在你的定義當中啦，可是這樣看起來金融科技好像是金融的附屬產業，它沒有主體性可言啦，感覺上是如此啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：以致於看你去處理沙盒的部分還是以試辦為主啊，對不對？真正沙盒部分的家數寥寥無幾啊！金管會抱持這樣心態的情況底下，那個是科技金融而不是金融科技啊，就你的這個定義上是這樣子，所以主委，金融科技業的扶植很關鍵，你一定要把它主體化，不是嗎？主委，請說。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，報告委員，其實我們的沙盒實驗條例第十八條特別明定金管會負有扶植金融科技業的責任，這是法條所明定的。我們整個金融科技業假設用市場的區分，有所謂的FinTech跟TechFin，比如剛剛委員講的應該是講TechFin，就是由科技業者執行跟金融業務有關的，主體是科技業，那另外一個FinTech的主體是金融業做這個……"],["郭委員國文：對，FinTech跟TechFin。"],["彭主任委員金隆：過去一直都認為政府的重點都著重在FinTech，而沒重在TechFin……"],["郭委員國文：對！"],["彭主任委員金隆：TechFin最重要的是能不能創造像國外所謂的獨角獸，大概是這個概念。"],["郭委員國文：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們也關注到國際的趨勢，國際上金融業跟科技業的合作，大概從國際的FinTech發展裡面可以看出來，幾乎絕大多數、大概六、七成以上的所謂TechFin是協助金融業去增加效率，但是還是有差不多10%是想要做創新的，我想這個就是我們未來想要做的。"],["郭委員國文：對，我要跟你談的就是創新的這個部分我們實在是太落後了啦，講白一點，我就問你一個嘛，現在用機器人理財是最流行的，以機器人理財來說，有一個人如果成立一家公司，用機器人在進行理財，用自有資金的部分的話，我請問一下這算金融？是歸您管的嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果他今天是牽涉到對投資的決策規劃，比如像我們的投顧、投信就會做這個事情嘛……"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以如果他是去涉及到做這個，我們的法定業務，當然是歸金管會所轄。"],["郭委員國文：對，但是到目前為止他的資金來源也不一樣嘛，一個是IPO、一個是私募、一個是自有資產嘛，性質上還不一樣啊，如果是自己的錢自己來操作呢，這還算你管的嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們通常金管會會主管的是要對不特定大眾提供，而且長期以此為業……"],["郭委員國文：對，就是大眾資金嘛！那問題來了，過往其實我們對於投信業者的部分都一定要把它法人化，那你現在在推動所謂資產管理中心，資產管理中心就有家族辦公室的問題，家族辦公室不想要讓機構掌握的話，他就會找所謂的專業投資人嘛，也就是CFA嘛，CFA的部分臺灣有開放嗎？臺灣有像美國、像香港、像新加坡，當我們想要跟他爭奪競爭業務的情況底下，所謂的個人投信、專業的投資人在沒有開放的情況底下，你如何帶動這個資產管理中心的發展？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就我的理解，現行的架構確實沒有沒有針對這一塊……"],["郭委員國文：沒有嘛，那你有沒有考慮開放啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：在我們未來整個規劃所謂的資產管理中心時，我們會針各種的課程開始考慮……"],["郭委員國文：就是個人投信、專業投資人、家族公司不想要被機構綁架的情況底下，他只信任一個個人，個人投資人開放的重要性，你如果沒有讓他合法化的話，他也可能帶整個家族的資金過來，結果你沒有讓他過來，那你的資產管理中心怎麼建構？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這是其中的一塊，我們的目標課程裡面比如說……"],["郭委員國文：很專業的、很重要的一塊啊！主委，所以你有沒有考慮個人投信的部分跟既有的法人投信有一個競合的可能性？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我會請我們的證期局這邊來……"],["郭委員國文：你應該好好思考一下啦！真的，基本上，我們法規本身要鬆綁，金融科技就是要鬆綁法規，沙盒實驗就是要鬆綁法規，你的整個資產管理就是本身要鬆綁法規，你如果這個都還沒有建構起來的話，要怎麼成立資產管理中心？"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實我們過去的法制是有一定的思維跟框架啦。"],["郭委員國文：對，而且在金融管理中心如果能把這樣的個人專業投資人建構起來的話，還可以減少詐騙耶，你知道嗎？你給他一個license，你允許他一個執照，予以納管，其他的都是非法，有沒有可能？現階段很多詐騙就是假設個人是專業，而取代所謂投顧投信，然後跟著我走，就是這樣子的現況啊，不是嗎？亂象就這樣產生了，制度上的缺漏就是如此啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員提供一個可以思考的方向啦，我想過去我們金管會傳統就是對所謂的機構管理，都是對不特定大眾有做這樣……"],["郭委員國文：對，你應該站在這個角度，也需要順便打詐嘛，好不好？你思考一下開放個人投信專業投資人。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：第二個部分，理財機器人的部分，一般是跟ETF掛勾在一起的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：還有一個跟高頻交易掛勾在一起的，來，我讓你看一下。下禮拜說要討論當沖的議題啦，證券公會猴急的跟什麼一樣，那根本是明年底要處理的事情，還遊說、lobby本委員會委員！","我給你看一下機器人理財，機器人理財根據你們證交所的計算，當沖金額最高的獲利人數總共23人而已，這個人是自然人，他背後是法人，總獲利207億啦，平均一個人是獲利9億之多，我把它切開分成境內、境外及自然人、法人，很不巧的，就是這些境外的法人賺的最多，194億，當沖賺最多的是靠機器人的高頻交易啊，結果境內的法人還輸3億多，境內的自然人輸了291億。主委，這個當沖交易有符合金融正義嗎？有符合租稅正義嗎？你真的要思考一下，你是不是要黃規彭隨？這個問題你好好思考一下，不是下禮拜一找你來問你就答應他啊，對不對？你們報告已經送出去了，你看這個獲利的結果，韭菜是誰？國內的；獲利的是誰？是境外的，透過高頻交易、透過機器人交易而獲得，這個是不是競爭上的不公平？租稅上有正義嗎？金融上有正義嗎？主委，請回答。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想剛剛委員提醒這個，我會請證期局及交易所好好的把這些資料做分析，再來看看中間的一些行為模式……"],["郭委員國文：今天第一次看到這些資料吧！我跟你說，有兩大公司啦！有兩間法人公司，就在證交所旁邊而已，它聘請了大概300位的工程師，你自己去查一下，都是印度人，1個月可以大賺1億啊！1個月就可以大賺1億。這種情況，你想境外的這23家公司都不受金管會的AI運用所監管，主委，你知道嗎？你知道這種狀況嗎？制度可以這樣延續嗎？制度都不檢討嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個我們會來瞭解及檢討，我們會……"],["郭委員國文：你要好好思考一下，另外……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我會立刻責成證期局及交易所好好來……"],["郭委員國文：對，好好慎重思考一下。","另外一個部分，有關於沙盒實驗，本席一而再、再而三做提醒，沙盒與試辦本身性質不同，剛剛的FinTech與TechFin也都不同，金融科技與科技金融不一樣，不一樣的情況底下，就應該要分開計算，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：這樣你才會有壓力及目標，試辦的性質基本上是行政規範的鬆綁，可是沙盒的部分其實是在法令上的鬆綁，層級是不同的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，沙盒是針對法律的鬆綁部分……"],["郭委員國文：怎麼可以混為一談呢？好，我最後要問一個問題，跟總裁有關係，楊總裁請……"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：主委，請留步。","總裁，主委有去拜訪過您，有關於資本集中的問題、關於後門條款的部分，你到底給他什麼樣的指示？有什麼要交代他的，請說一下，好不好？你們私底下會談的重點。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們就是講到第七十二條之二，這個我們私下有談論過，就是第七十二條之二有那些排除條款，我們是不是來檢討一下看看……"],["郭委員國文：對，應該檢討一下，站在你的立場，就要檢討一下，他好像虛心受教，他好像要檢討，他還跟本席講1個月啦……"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是。"],["郭委員國文：如果具體要檢討，具體要檢討哪幾個，你有沒有跟他講？"],["楊總裁金龍：我是沒有跟他講……"],["郭委員國文：你沒有具體跟他講？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有具體。"],["郭委員國文：不用客氣嘛！剛剛王世堅委員已經把他交給你了，你就直接跟他講就好了啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我們再來跟他們討論一下看看。"],["郭委員國文：好，總裁請回去，主委請。","主委，上個禮拜銀行局莊局長跟我講，加上所謂後門條款是29%，但是金管會統計到113年5月份依第七十二條之二的總共是26.54%……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：跟你們109年的26.7%相比，看起來反而減少喔！主委，可是我要讓你看一個數字，你去看38家銀行的母數、基數，從44.8兆成長到56.8兆，總共增加了12兆耶！同樣的比例，你有沒有算過，到底多少資金放貸到整個土建融裡頭去，多了幾兆？你自己算。"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，剛剛那個……"],["郭委員國文：多了幾兆？大概足足多了4兆之多啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：是不是足足多了4兆之多？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：就絕對數額來看，比例看什麼比例，你要看健康數字啊！整個央行再怎麼總體信用管制，有效嗎？沒效啦！多了4兆耶！而且你每年存款金額大概多3兆多，彭主委，多3兆多的意思就是你又多了1兆可以放貸的空間，這樣房地產不可能不漲，對不對？你們沒有其他約束的方式嗎？彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在主要是第七十二條之二有個30%的限制，剛剛的比例確實分母及分子兩個同步上升，比例看起來是穩定，但那個量是增加。"],["郭委員國文：總體信用管制不能只有比例上的思考，還有金額上的思考，你看增加了4兆，房地產怎麼可能不漲！總體信用管制這3年多來為什麼比較沒有成效？就是銀行放大款，怪不得我們金融業會賺那麼多錢，放給土建融最容易嘛！我請問一下，彭主委，你管不管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們幾次在委員會裡面有蠻多委員關心這個，其實我們內部已經籌設一個小組，在針對……"],["郭委員國文：除了比例上的限制，有沒有考慮總額的限制？"],["彭主任委員金隆：總額的部分，可能要跟央行一起來討論。"],["郭委員國文：楊總裁，你覺得有沒有需要總額的限制？照這種存款比率一直持續增加，一年存款多3兆多的情況底下，你再怎麼總體信用管制有效嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們來討論討論，好不好？"],["郭委員國文：你們討論一下，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["郭委員國文：除了比例限制，也要總額限制，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是。"],["郭委員國文：好，那麻煩兩位，謝謝！"],["主席：郭國文召集人質詢時間結束，謝謝郭委員。","現在請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":0.6215937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.97534375,"end":6.814718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.61596875,"end":10.004093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.898468750000003,"end":28.718468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.07284375,"end":40.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.509718750000005,"end":47.939093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.22596875,"end":71.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.96909375,"end":135.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.05034375000001,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.42471875000001,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.28096875,"end":101.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.87846875000001,"end":112.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.79909375,"end":134.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.03096875,"end":151.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.73971875,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.17346875,"end":141.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.41659375,"end":160.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.03596875000002,"end":157.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.41096875000002,"end":160.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.96784375000001,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.03909375,"end":173.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.86034375,"end":176.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.96534375000002,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.64346875,"end":219.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.29971875,"end":197.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.14284375000003,"end":202.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.32409375,"end":203.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.96284375000002,"end":230.79659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.03846875000002,"end":222.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.34096875,"end":237.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.66471875000002,"end":247.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.45221875000001,"end":251.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.22409375,"end":249.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.79346875000002,"end":260.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.54721875,"end":261.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.58096875,"end":262.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.31909375000004,"end":262.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.65659375,"end":274.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.85721875,"end":274.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.87409375000004,"end":278.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.40096875,"end":285.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.55596875000003,"end":286.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.87221875,"end":301.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.97534375000004,"end":314.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.02409375,"end":324.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.14596875,"end":317.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.67221875,"end":328.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.57034375,"end":338.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.66284375000004,"end":330.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.62346875000003,"end":363.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.54784375,"end":368.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.18409375000005,"end":373.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.60971875,"end":376.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.74409375000005,"end":378.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.60471875,"end":381.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.01346875,"end":383.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.64596875,"end":388.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.16846875000005,"end":395.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.10409375,"end":398.65221875000003},{"speaker":"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這個當中交易有符合金融正義嗎有符合租稅正義嗎"},{"start":384.673,"end":401.773,"text":"你真的要思考一下你是不是要還規啊、捧水啊這個問題你要思考一下不是下禮拜一找你來問你就答應他啊 對不對你們報告已經送出去啦你看這個獲利的結果韭菜是誰?國內的獲利的是誰?境外的"},{"start":403.052,"end":420.543,"text":"透過高評交易、透過極情的交易而獲得,看這是不是競爭上的不公平?豬雖上有爭議嗎?金融上有爭議嗎?主委請回答所以我想剛才委員提醒這個我會請政體局跟交易所好好的把這些資料做一個分析然後再來看看中間的一些行為今天第一次看到這些資料吧"},{"start":421.563,"end":449.401,"text":"我跟你說有兩大公司啦有兩間法人公司啦就在這個證交所旁邊而已啦他聘請了大概300位的工程師啦你去查一下都是印度人一個月可以大賺1億啊一個月就可以大賺1億所以這種情況你想這些境外的23家公司他都不受金管會的AI運用所所監管喔知不知道嗎你知道這種狀況嗎制度可以這樣延續嗎"},{"start":450.674,"end":472.278,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":472.438,"end":472.738,"text":"主委,請留步。"},{"start":496.869,"end":514.176,"text":"總裁,主委有去拜訪過您有關於資本集中的問題關於後門條款的部分,你到底給他什麼樣的指示?有什麼樣要交代他的?請說一下好不好?你們私底下會談重點我們在講到就是說27條,這是我們私底下有談論過就是說這個27條之二,它有那些的排除條款我們是不是來檢討一下看看"},{"start":522.739,"end":523.319,"text":"主委 總裁請回去 主委請"},{"start":549.912,"end":571.879,"text":"主委上個禮拜銀行局莊局長跟我講說加上所謂後門條款29但是到113年5月份總共的金管會統計72條之二是26.54跟你109年相比是26.7看起來反而減少喔可是主委我要讓你看一個數字你去看喔38家銀行的母數"},{"start":572.859,"end":596.232,"text":"基數從44.8兆成長了56.8兆總共增加了12兆同樣的比例你有沒有算過到底多少資金放貸到整個土建籠子裡頭去?多了幾兆?你自己算多了幾兆嘛?足足大概多了4兆之多啦是不是足足多了4兆之多?"},{"start":598.194,"end":616.4,"text":"就絕對數額來看比例,看什麼比例?你要看健康數字啊!整個央行總裁再怎麼總體信用管制,有好沒?沒好啦!多了4兆耶!而且你每年存款金額大概要多3兆多!"},{"start":617.762,"end":644.633,"text":"彭主委,多三兆多的意思就是說你又多了一兆可以放貸的空間欸!房地產的話不可能不漲嘛!對不對?你都沒有其他約束的方式嗎?彭主委現在是主要是剛才72之2他有個30啦就是剛剛那個比例確實兩個分母跟分子同步上升比例看起來是會穩定但那個值是量是增加總體信用管制不能只有比例上的思考還有金額上的思考嘛!"},{"start":646.021,"end":663.151,"text":"你看增加了市造、房地產怎麼可能不漲?總體信用管制這三年多來為什麼比較沒有成效?就是銀行放大款!怪不得我們金融業會賺那麼多錢!放給土建銅最容易嘛!"},{"start":664.858,"end":665.939,"text":"楊總裁你覺得有沒有需要總額的限制?"},{"start":687.543,"end":687.743,"text":"拜託兩位,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154624","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8baa4ecbd2697e5e6ca0ece664f026f7b90a5faf2fa6890fcce2844124dec03b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:39:27 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10:49:36","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:39:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:49:36+08:00","duration":609,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時39分）謝謝召委，有請陳主委還有次長跟董事長。"],["主席：好，請陳主委、連次長還有曾董事長。"],["陳主任委員東陽：范雲委員好。"],["范委員雲：不知道為什麼，時間很快就輪到我，還好我坐在這個委員會裡面，我的PPT好像還沒有來得及。我想剛剛幾位都已經講了非常多關於核安、關於核廢料的部分，但是我想重點再提醒大家一下，剛剛陳主委已經講了，全世界沒有一個國家像我們一樣，用了核電廠40年，到現在都沒有乾式貯存場，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["范委員雲：主委，那你可不可以簡單講一句話，為什麼乾式貯存場一直都拖延，沒有辦法依照進度，主要是為什麼？"],["陳主任委員東陽：過去主要是新北市政府跟台電……"],["范委員雲：對，新北市政府是誰的任內一直阻撓？"],["陳主任委員東陽：應該朱縣長吧！"],["范委員雲：朱市長到侯市長嘛！"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["范委員雲：所以到現在都沒有辦法處理，那中期貯存場我們有沒有解方？"],["陳主任委員東陽：現在也沒有。"],["范委員雲：現在沒解方。全世界有幾個國家有高階核廢料的終期解方──最終處置場？"],["陳主任委員東陽：最終處置場，我知道大概只有芬蘭現在才在試營運階段。"],["范委員雲：這是高階的，就是燃料棒。而低階核廢料，全世界有沒有一個國家像臺灣一直放在蘭嶼，一直對不起蘭嶼人？"],["陳主任委員東陽：低階核廢料全世界就比較多了，臺灣現在也碰到困難……"],["范委員雲：有碰到困難，核廢料我們已經放在蘭嶼那邊幾年了？"],["陳主任委員東陽：從71年到現在。"],["范委員雲：我們請台電董事長過來。請問台電當時有告訴過蘭嶼人說核廢料要放在蘭嶼嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：這個已經有過相關的補償，我想也都查過了，是沒有講清楚。"],["范委員雲：好，那本來台電規劃什麼時候要把核廢料退出蘭嶼？"],["曾董事長文生：我們有在其他的地方找低階核廢料的貯存場，因為現在低階廢料貯存場在法律裡面規定要地方辦公投。"],["范委員雲：對。"],["曾董事長文生：那個公投其實一直都沒有辦法順利進行。"],["范委員雲：因為這樣子，我們一直對不起蘭嶼人，我這樣講對吧？好，董事長，所以關於低階核廢料，所有提案的或是如果覺得我們今天有這個彈性選項的立委，我覺得都應該要先去跟蘭嶼人下跪，因為到現在為止我們一直對不起蘭嶼人，就是因為台電的方案也無法執行，至於無法執行的理由為何，低階核廢料的最終處置場在101年詢問過金門縣政府，這個也請陳玉珍委員注意一下，如果你要投票支持的話，金門縣政府說歉難配合辦理，連公投都不願意辦理；臺東縣政府也說無法協助辦理公民投票事項。這個都是公文，所以到現在為止為什麼無法遷出？至少有金門縣政府、臺東縣政府都連公投都不願意辦。","我們看一下現在我們偉大的國民黨總召，聽說今天為什麼我們教文要排這個，是國民黨總召傅崐萁要求排的，沒有一個我們教文委員的提案，都是非教文委員提案要研議，我們的國民黨總召擔任花蓮縣長的時候，他說高階核廢料最終處置場連探勘都不能夠在花蓮探勘，因為當時的專業說只有花蓮跟哪裡有花崗岩？"],["曾董事長文生：有host rock，就是在秀林，還有……"],["范委員雲：秀林，當時他說這樣會扼殺花蓮縣觀光命脈，而且他還說，他力挺秀林鄉原住民北上出草抗爭，所以連探勘能不能放高階核廢料的探勘都不行；2019年花蓮縣長徐榛蔚也說，要考慮花蓮的地震頻繁跟在地原住民反對的民意，這是2019年；結果2021年花蓮縣長徐榛蔚居然支持核四續建，強調說，現在核廢料放哪裡就放哪裡，這不就是一個最好的例子嗎？花蓮這一對不知道現在是不是還是夫妻的政治人物，只要不放在他的縣市政府，放在蘭嶼、放在別的地方都沒有問題，所以我覺得這就是我們現在核廢料的問題，從低階到高階，這麼的不負責任，遇到自己的地方政府，而且這幾位都是藍營的，支持的也是以藍營立委為主，反對設置核廢料最終處置場從低階到高階的也都是以藍營的地方政府為主。所以剛剛每個發言的藍營立委都在講缺電，有哪一位認真的面對核廢料，告訴我們從低階到高階核廢料的解方？每一個被認為相關的縣市政府，連公投都拒絕，我們的國民黨總召傅崐萁說，連探勘都不尊重原住民，那請問他尊重過蘭嶼的原住民嗎？國民黨的總召、國民黨的召委，柯志恩召委也請你問一下你們的總召，為什麼花蓮不行，臺東蘭嶼行，好嗎？這是核廢料問題，這無法解決的話，我不知道我們怎麼對得起下一代的子孫。","時間也差不多了，我想請問核安會主委，從低階到高階的核廢料要多少年才能夠完全安全？"],["陳主任委員東陽：高階核廢料目前估計是2055年。"],["范委員雲：不是，我的意思是說，核廢料最終處置場如果真的找到的話，要埋放多少年才會安全？"],["陳主任委員東陽：10萬年。"],["范委員雲：10萬年！各位有沒有聽到，就算我們找到一個地方，要放10萬年才能夠完全讓它對人體傷害的毒性消失，所以對臺灣來講，我們到底有什麼條件處理這個部分？我們都還沒有講，請問主委，您再講一次，我問過你了，就是核三廠以及核一、核二，當時蓋的時候，知道他們都可能位於地震帶嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：當時蓋的時候不清楚有這個恆春……"],["范委員雲：完全不知道有地震帶，所以今天就算要做安全的審查也非常有可能不過關，剛剛經濟部次長無法回答，我想最後再問台電董事長，這個已經用了40年的核電廠，就算你要讓它有安全的運轉的話，你估計可能要花費多少成本代價？因為剛剛經濟部次長無法回答這個問題，你想一下是億還是兆或什麼單位，有沒有辦法估計？"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在看到國外做的一些相關狀況都是千億。"],["范委員雲：千億以上……"],["曾董事長文生：剛才有提到日本有些機組延役的狀況，用臺幣來算的話是千億。"],["范委員雲：千億以上，光是一個廠可能代價就要千億以上，對不對？要維持它的安全嘛！因為用了40年的核電廠……"],["曾董事長文生：它有好多東西要做……"],["范委員雲：很多東西要弄，請問台電董事長，這樣算起來核電還是便宜的嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：看它做多久發電的度數去除，我要這樣講，跟委員報告，做研議相關的工作，它要支出的成本是一件事，我們現在面對的是最終處置也是不確定的東西，在這件事情上台電最大的為難是我們會遇到很多不確定的事，所以我們才一直在講，我們用缺電的邏輯來講核電其實沒有辦法讓核電在安全的前提下來做選擇。"],["范委員雲：最後我想請大家看一下2011年福島核災，日本國土有百分之八受到放射性的污染，到現在，我們國民黨也反對過核食，所以我不知道為什麼國民黨總召可以做這麼不負責任的決定，只准自己花蓮人反對探勘，卻讓蘭嶼人繼續承擔低階的核廢料，所以拜託國民黨的委員們回去問你們的總召，這麼的不負責任，也請我們教文的召委做出負責任的決定，每一位委員要審查條文的時候，請先告訴我們核廢料怎麼處理好嗎？我反對我們在這些問題解決前，就這麼的不負責任要進入條文的審查，我認為這整個社會完全沒有瞭解到地質條件、地緣政治，敏感的臺灣有充分的原因不選擇核能，國民黨不顧核安風險和核廢料，到底想把臺灣帶往哪個方向？以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請各位回座。"],["吳委員沛憶：我有程序問題！"],["主席：等一下先聽完我講的這個部分。本席之前有特別提到，在羅廷瑋委員質詢結束之後，我們休息5分鐘，因為羅廷瑋委員前面的翁曉玲沒有到，羅廷瑋委員不在現場，所以照過去來說，我就用唱名3次的方法一路過去，造成各位委員趕至不及，所以剛剛跟議事人員充分溝通完之後，我作成以下決定，在休息5分鐘完之後，我們由羅廷瑋委員繼續，葉元之、陳培瑜、吳沛憶依序質詢。","我們現在先休息5分鐘的時間。謝謝。","休息（10時50分）","繼續開會（10時56分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會，接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳春城","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蘇清泉等\n26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具\n「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應\n器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.30034375,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.06221875,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.31096875,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.610343750000002,"end":50.470343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.094718750000006,"end":60.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.118468750000005,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.69596875,"end":68.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.76284375,"end":70.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.48409375,"end":85.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.54909375000001,"end":87.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.42659375000001,"end":94.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.93159375,"end":101.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.47971875,"end":99.18846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.41596875,"end":101.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.97284375000001,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.02346875,"end":102.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.27659375,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.96409375,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.67971875,"end":119.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.80971875,"end":121.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.32846875000001,"end":121.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.29034375,"end":124.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.28971875,"end":126.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.32346875,"end":126.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.86346875000001,"end":128.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.77471875,"end":130.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.27596875,"end":139.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.52346875,"end":148.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.88534375,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.96971875,"end":153.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.97284375,"end":162.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.73971875,"end":170.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.78909375,"end":171.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.31221875,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.01221875000002,"end":177.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.16721875000002,"end":257.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.94846875,"end":259.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.10846875000004,"end":263.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.58471875000004,"end":321.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.47409375,"end":269.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.10721875,"end":354.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.35096875000005,"end":366.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.92721875,"end":385.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.51909375,"end":398.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.05721875,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.50846875,"end":404.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.62159375000005,"end":412.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.97909375,"end":413.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.24909375000004,"end":416.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.94471875000005,"end":442.15596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.98284375000003,"end":443.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.37096875000003,"end":443.45534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.45534375000005,"end":444.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.02909375,"end":473.76284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.69471875000005,"end":481.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.16659375,"end":493.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.53284375000004,"end":487.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.21534375000005,"end":496.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.72971875,"end":497.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.16409375,"end":504.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.07471875000005,"end":506.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.96034375000005,"end":511.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.9465937499999,"end":534.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.7847187500001,"end":523.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.4240937500001,"end":538.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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。"},{"start":327.773,"end":344.106,"text":"案：一、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員蘇清泉等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條條文修"},{"start":355.41,"end":377.241,"text":"被認為的相關縣市政府連公投都拒絕放。國民黨總召傅坤祺說連探勘都不尊重原住民,請問他尊重過蘭嶼的原住民嗎?國民黨的總召、國民黨的召委、國民黨科智恩召委也請你問一下你們的總召為什麼?"},{"start":378.021,"end":402.708,"text":"花蓮不行,台東藍雨行。」這是核廢料問題,這無法解決的話,我不知道我們怎麼對得起下一代的子仙。我想請問我們核安會主委,請問你,那個從低階到高階的核廢料要多少年才能夠完全安全?高階核廢料目前估計是2055年,"},{"start":405.72,"end":408.541,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具 «核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":427.168,"end":429.311,"text":"所以這次到底是據說對台灣來講的話我們有什麼條件處理這個部分我們都還沒有講請問主委您再講一次我問過你了就是核三廠核一、核二當時蓋的時候知道他們都可能有地震帶嗎"},{"start":443.535,"end":458.783,"text":"當時蓋的時候不清楚有這個恆春…完全不知道有地震帶嘛所以今天如果就算要做安全的審查也非常可能不過關嘛那請剛剛我們經濟次長無法回答我想最後再問台電董事長"},{"start":460.344,"end":473.473,"text":"這個安全齁這個已經用了40年的核電廠齁就算你要讓它有安全的物品產的話你估計可能要花費多少因為剛剛經濟部次長無法回答這個問題這個成本代價你想一下是億還是兆或什麼一個單位有沒有辦法估計"},{"start":482.573,"end":511.55,"text":"我們現在看到國外做的一些相關狀況都是千億的狀況千億以上剛才有提到日本的一些日本有些基礎原液的狀況用台幣來算的話是千億千億以上光是一個廠可能代價就千億以上對不對要維持他的安全嘛因為用了40年的核電廠他有好多東西要做很多東西要弄好那請問我們台電董事長這樣算起來核電還是便宜的嗎"},{"start":512.984,"end":534.37,"text":"看他做多久發電的度數去除那個我要這樣講跟委員報告就是說做研議相關的工作他要的支出的成本是一件事那我們現在面對的是最終處置也是不確定的東西我們其實在這件事情上台電最大的為難是我們會遇到很多不確定的事所以我們才一直在講"},{"start":535.49,"end":555.621,"text":"我們用缺電的邏輯來講核電其實沒有辦法讓核電在安全的前提下來做選擇好那最後我想請大家看一下2011年福島核災日本國土有8%受到放射性的污染到現在據說我們國民黨也反"},{"start":555.981,"end":556.061,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":585.981,"end":586.001,"text":"案 。"}]}},{"id":"154623","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154623","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8079ff5fed5933326a9bb3959728069a090a5faf2fa6890fc9b76f11e714d12295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:37:08 - 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Authority，OTA讓美國國防部能夠避掉傳統且繁瑣的聯邦籌獲規範，所以他們可以跟企業彈性的簽訂商業合約，這樣還可以大幅度的提升他們籌獲的效率。","其實我們來看OTA的機制，從2016年，剛好是DIU在美國正式成立的時候開始，因為國防授權法允許他們擴大使用OTA的方式，所以美國國防部用OTA簽約的方式，它的金額呈現爆炸式的成長，我們這邊也看到，2016年是0.76億美金，到2028年是到20億美金，這還不是最新出來的data，我們知道這種類似OTA的機制，國防部是不是要考慮採購？思考建置更靈活的採購機制？我們講的是更靈活的採購機制，剛才幾位委員有提到，可能有些不夠好，但問題是我們要更多元、多種類，量也很重要，包含俄烏戰爭，其實俄烏戰爭用的不見得是最好。最強是怎麼定義？最好是怎麼定義？可能在每一個不同的戰場環境下必須要最適應，我想這才是這邊的狀況。","我希望今天我們討論DIU，我們要討論它從源頭開始的機制，我想請教一下，類似美國這種OTA加速創新制度的採購方式引進，目前的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想你要瞭解國防部的困難，建案的程序如果不做，沒有符合立法院監督的要求的話，這個部分很容易引起質疑，我們現在能夠做的，就是我們儘量採急迫性建案的方式，但還是要取得立法院的同意。"],["陳委員冠廷：就是儘量讓美國的資訊可以來跟大家分享。第二個部分，為什麼DIU這種創新的小組能夠存活下來，還有包含武器獲得相關流程的改善，大家應該知道，像是緊急能力的獲取、軟體籌獲、中階系統的籌獲等等，它是讓新文化能夠制度化，我當然知道一開始很難，一定會有很多不同的質疑聲，但不代表我們在創新的過程中不能夠嘗試嘛！就像為什麼要找文人部長？文人部長就是希望在過去舊有的體制下或者是他們的訓練過程中，認為我們要執行、要把這種傳統文化或是這種制度存留下來，但是文人部長能夠做的，是不是思考除了這個文化之外，看看我們的情況，再看看其他的國家、我們的友邦，如果美國有類似作法的時候，是不是可以參考，如果不符合國情當然可以不用，這個部分部長可不可以簡單回應一下？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有提到公開徵集解決方案的一個概念，如果認為可以作為引進的一個基礎，我們會在政府採購網上徵求這些相關的科技解決方案，如果有必要的話，像我們現在工業發展基金有委託的案子，也許我們用工業發展基金來提供這些委託案，但是我們要的不只是拿出一篇報告，我們要的是立即能夠加以運用的一些案子，在我們中科院最後做了系統整合之後，或構改以後，或性能提升之後，或者是相關已經可以進入量產的階段、要進行建案的話，我想我們還是必須要進入建案的程序。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，我沒有反對什麼，我只是把最近的一些狀況來跟大家討論，美國DIU主體的網站上面提到，他們把一些輔助型的技術，在應用上大概可以儘量縮短到12個月，我認為不見得什麼事情都一定是要看其他國家的狀況，不同的部分還是可以考量一下。"],["李院長世強：委員剛剛講的OTA，中科院也非常認同，我也跟委員報告，未來我們所有新製的裝備在有了DIU之後，比如說無人機好了，在它量產的第一架和最後一架，中間一定是不斷的update，不會從頭到尾都是一樣的，這就是OTA大概的概念，我們會不斷的引進新技術，不斷的在整個量產的過程中間讓它的性能不斷的提升。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。除了無人機，甚至高科技的這些軍用商規等等，其實我們要思考的是在DIU的過程中，它在研擬的東西不是只有所謂高科技的應用，有些高效率的應用，比方說它可能是很簡單的一個組件、一個零件，但可以改變它整個生態的體系，不見得一定就是所謂的高科技人才，他可能是在其他領域、生物界、工程界，或者是在軟體工程等等，這都有可能。","所以希望我們在討論DIU的時候，最好是不要把它只限縮在於無人機、AI，因為我看到今天許多委員都不斷在強調這一點，其實DIU所應用的、所採購的技術，不見得是武器，還有技術，甚至還有流程管理，就是它不一定是你摸得到的東西，但是它可以讓美軍更快速的適應戰場環境，我想這是我們在溝通的過程中，或者是在國會的質詢過程中，我們可以讓民眾知道國防部現在在做什麼。","部長，想請教一下，最近我看到媒體在說國防部將成立臺版的DARPA，這樣的說法是不是在這邊澄清一下？臺灣的DIU跟DARPA有什麼不同？"],["顧部長立雄：DARPA是那種未來先進科技，可能要花10年或20年的那一種叫DARPA，那是要像美國這樣的國家才有辦法、有能力跟資源去投入這麼長期、這麼多的預算，我們沒有這樣子的一個資源，所以我們應該是美國的DIU，所以美國不但有DARPA、DIU，還有DIO這些相關的很多，我們其實是他們其中一個DIU的項目，也就是成熟的解決方案。"],["陳委員冠廷：國防部提到，這是要負責創新概念評估及引進民間成熟科技，所以剛才部長的這個答復我覺得很好，我想讓民間也知道，我們在做的不是重新發明輪子，也不是他們有高等的技術研究，我們也要有，不是這樣子的，我們是希望能夠有更成熟的科技進入我們這個市場。","在國防部的報告裡面提到了「市場」，大家都知道，我們臺灣的市場，特別是軍工的市場相對的小，除了我們自己的採購之外，其實還是有一定的侷限在，不然現在這些新創的東西，如果可以賣出去的話，就可以賣給全世界的市場，所以跟美方積極交流的部分，你們的計畫是什麼？","我先講一下現在美國要求的資安認證就是CMMC，在這個體制之下，即這一個網路安全成熟度的模型是2019年提出來的，過去的分類是五個級別，現在的2.0版則是三個級別，就是基礎防護、進階防護跟專家級防護，我們要談的是，當我們要進入美方的市場，當我們要進入人家的國防產業鏈、要接軌的時候，就是我們不必重新說要加入、要加入，但是如果我們最基本的資安要求沒有達到的話，那你要怎麼加入？所以我想知道怎麼樣來跟美國做這一個合作，這很重要，就是你的規格、你的規制等等，臺灣不能夠我們自己做一版，然後跟美國如果不通用，變成每次都要重新申請的過程，或者是你要進入他們產業鏈的驗證過程，就會變得非常長，不知道部長在這方面有何看法？"],["顧部長立雄：CMMC 2.0的架構出來之後，我們現在已經積極的在跟美方做溝通，細節部分可能沒有辦法透露。但是有一個關鍵，到底在臺灣本地有沒有第三方認證的一個機制，如果美國可以在這裡設立一個第三方認證機制的話，對於整個CMMC通過認證所需要的費用，會相當大幅度的減低，這一點是很重要的，我們現在正在跟他們密切的研討當中。"],["陳委員冠廷：今年是2024年，2026年就會全面實施，所以我們希望能夠把這一個強制的要求先釐清，這個沒有什麼機密性，就是你如果要進入他們的產業鏈，你就必須要達到這些東西、條件。"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們跟他們有積極的在討論。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，我還是再強調，如果我們直接進入他們DIU的網站，一進去的視覺化或者是可親近性就很高了，因為它是要跟民間、商業交流的，它要有效率的，剛剛這邊也寫了，要說的是你的語言，要說的不是國防部的語言，國防部的語言有時我聽不太懂，因為我們是來自民間，因此，說我們的語言，說民間的語言，這樣子我們的產業才能夠進去美國的市場，所以未來在你的系統上面、網路上面、情報上面的分享，或者是你要讓更多民間的產業進來的話，就要說他們的語言，儘量用白話文，儘量讓真的有實力、有科技力、有能量的產業能夠進入我們的國防部，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：謝謝。接下來請林憶君委員、林憶君委員、林憶君委員不在。","請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林楚茵","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革\n新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學\n及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.55409375,"end":0.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.9040937500000001,"end":2.6634687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.10221875,"end":3.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.56971875,"end":9.531593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.73409375,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.032843750000001,"end":16.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.48409375,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.94284375,"end":25.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.74846875,"end":28.195343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.465343750000002,"end":32.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.41784375,"end":36.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.37534375,"end":47.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.955968750000004,"end":78.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.17471875000001,"end":83.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.15721875,"end":83.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.20784375000001,"end":157.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.16659375,"end":160.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.83284375000002,"end":161.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.87909375,"end":182.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.71971875,"end":183.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.05284375000002,"end":217.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.92096875000001,"end":219.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.84471875000003,"end":243.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.53284375,"end":252.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.40909375,"end":304.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.95409375,"end":303.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.86096875000004,"end":324.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.85659375,"end":305.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.04346875000005,"end":332.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.82346875,"end":330.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.48534375,"end":334.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.81409375000004,"end":339.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.21409375,"end":361.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.94909375000003,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.04159375,"end":367.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.97346875000005,"end":410.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.29659375,"end":379.78596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.76846875,"end":414.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.76784375000005,"end":418.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.29471875,"end":420.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.18034375,"end":423.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.03221875,"end":431.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.16596875000005,"end":433.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.95471875000004,"end":437.58284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.00471875000005,"end":441.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.61596875000004,"end":443.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.89409375,"end":481.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.27221875000004,"end":504.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.71159375,"end":507.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.61409375000005,"end":523.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.8984687500001,"end":529.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.02409375,"end":531.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.0659687500001,"end":540.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.38534375,"end":547.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.7934687500001,"end":551.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.7590937500001,"end":554.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.5434687500001,"end":555.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.2647187499999,"end":557.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.7834687500001,"end":571.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.92471875,"end":573.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.76409375,"end":580.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.07096875,"end":582.7078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.0959687500001,"end":586.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.67346875,"end":589.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.81221875,"end":596.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.0390937500001,"end":630.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPE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陳委員好部長好其實關於這個DIU我們這個論壇很早我們在2016年2017年那時候我們有邀請陳委員陳永剛將軍一起來來參與關於這個創新生態圈的討論那專業圈已經過了七八年了那很高興今天可以看到說我們在國會可以共同來去談這個議題那我們看到國防"},{"start":37.421,"end":55.157,"text":"國防部提供的報告說是善用民間新創技術及能量那採用對外徵集的方式來鼓勵國內的這個新創企業投入國防領域那這邊有提到說創新小組將以國軍建案程序進行籌貨所以我們知道說傳統的採購過程是非常的冗長的"},{"start":57.119,"end":78.44,"text":"美國的DIU之所以能夠有現在的成效那是為什麼那是因為它有OTA的機制在那OTA讓美國國防部能夠去避免掉傳統的這個繁瑣的聯邦籌貨的規範在所以說他們可以跟企業的彈性的簽訂商業合約那這樣還可以大幅度的提升它的無貨的效率"},{"start":79.241,"end":108.481,"text":"那其實OTA的機制我們來看從2016年開始剛好是跟這個DIU正式的來去成立在美國成立的時候才開始因為國防授權法去允許它擴大使用OTA的方式所以美國國防部它提供用OTA簽約的方式它的金額是呈現爆炸式的成長那我們這邊有看到從2016年它是0.76億美金它到2028年是到20億美金那這還不是最新的這個data出來"},{"start":109.221,"end":125.323,"text":"我們知道說這種類似OTA的這種機制國防部是不是要考慮一下來去採購來去思考一下建制更靈活的採購機制我們講的是更靈活的採購機制剛才我們提到幾位委員有提到說這個不夠可能有些不夠好"},{"start":125.743,"end":146.417,"text":"但是問題是我們要更多元多種類量也很重要這樣包含二無戰爭其實二無戰爭我們用的不是最好不見得是最強是什麼定義最好是什麼定義我可能是在每一個不同的戰場環境下他必須要最適應我想這還是狀況在在這邊那我們希望今天我們討論這一個DIU我們要討論他從源頭開始的機制"},{"start":150.16,"end":156.624,"text":"我想請教一下,類似美國的OTA的這種加速創新制度的這種採購方式的引進目前的狀況是什麼樣?"},{"start":158.606,"end":182.664,"text":"跟委員報告,我想你要了解國防部的困難那我想如果建案的程序如果不做的話那麼沒有符合這個立法院監督的這個要求的話這個部分很容易會引起質疑那我們現在做的話如果能夠做就是我們盡量的採急迫性建案的方式但是還是要取得立法院的同意這樣子謝謝"},{"start":184.145,"end":210.338,"text":"那我想就是盡量把美國的資訊我來跟大家分享那第二個部分DIU為什麼能夠這種創新的這種小組能夠存活下來還有包含武器獲得的流程的一個改善那我想大家應該知道說像是緊急能力的獲取軟體籌貨中階系統的籌貨等等它是讓新聞化能夠制度化那我當然知道一開始很難一定會有很多不同的質疑聲但是不代表說"},{"start":211.198,"end":218.843,"text":"我們在創新的這個過程中不能夠嘗試嗎?這為什麼要找文能部長?文能部長就是說希望在過去可能"},{"start":219.898,"end":243.666,"text":"在舊有的體制或者是他們的訓練過程認為說我們要執行要把這種傳統文化或者是這種制度存留下來但是無能部長能夠做的是不是思考說除了這個文化之外有沒有其他看看我們吧其他的國家我們的友邦如果美國有類似的做法的時候是不是可以參考如果不符合國情當然可以不用這個部分部長可不可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":244.614,"end":270.965,"text":"我們有提到一個公開徵集解決方案的一個概念那如果說認為可以作為引進的一個基礎的話我們會在政府採購網這邊徵求這些相關的科技解決方案那如果有必要的話那我們現在有工業發展基金有委託的案子那也許我們用"},{"start":271.665,"end":297.704,"text":"公園發展基金來提供這些委託案那但是我想我們要的不是一個拿出來只是一篇報告我們要的就是立即能夠加以運用的一個一些案子所以我想那但是我們最後中科院如果最後做了系統整合之後那麼或者是構改以後或性能提升之後或者是相關已經可以進入了這個量產的這個"},{"start":300.406,"end":300.466,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":325.407,"end":334.055,"text":"我認為不見得說什麼事情都一定是要學習其他國家那不同的部分還是可以來去考量一下"},{"start":334.861,"end":361.324,"text":"委員剛剛講的OTA這個我非常中會議員這邊非常認同那我也跟委員報告未來我們所有的新制的裝備在有了DIU之後其實它在第一架比如說無人機好了它量產的第一架和最後一架它中間一定是不斷的update不會是從頭到尾就是一樣這就是OTA大概的概念我們會不斷的引進新技術不斷的在整個量產的過程中間去讓它性能不斷的提升"},{"start":362.428,"end":383.998,"text":"除了無人機,我們這些高科技的軍用商規等等,其實我們要思考就是說它DIU的過程中,它在研擬的東西不是所謂只有高科技的應用,有些高效率的應用,就是說它可能是一個很簡單的一個組件,一個零件,它可以改變它整個生態的體系,"},{"start":385.419,"end":414.098,"text":"那不見得是一定就是所謂的高科技人才他可能是在其他領域生物界、工程界或者是在軟體工程等等這都有可能我說我們希望當我們在討論這一個DIU的時候最好是不要把他指限縮在於無人機AI因為我看到今天許多委員都不斷在強調這一點那其實DIU它所應用的所採購的技術不見得是武器還有技術甚至是還有流程管理"},{"start":415.158,"end":418.919,"text":"最近有看到媒體有在講說國防部將成立台版的DARPA這樣的說法是不是在這邊澄清一下台灣的這個DIU跟DARPA有什麼不同"},{"start":444.319,"end":464.133,"text":"大PAR是那種未來先進科技可能要花10年或20年的那一種叫大PAR他那個要美國這樣的國家才有辦法有那個能力跟資源去投入一個這麼長期然後這麼多的預算那我們沒有這樣子的一個資源所以我們應該是美國的這個DIU"},{"start":468.095,"end":480.62,"text":"所以美國不但有這個搭把DIU還有DIO這些相關很多,那我們覺得是他們的其中一個DIU的這個項目,也就是成熟的解決方案這樣子。"},{"start":481.525,"end":502.808,"text":"對 國防部提到說是負責創新概念評估引進民間成熟科技啦所以這個 剛才部長的這一個答詢我覺得很好我想讓民間也知道說我們在做的不是重新發明輪子他們有這個高等的這個技術的研究我們也要有不是這樣子的我們是希望能夠有更成熟的科技來進入我們的這個市場"},{"start":503.809,"end":528.898,"text":"但是在國防部的報告裡面有提到說市場大家都知道我們台灣的市場其實特別是軍工的市場相對的小除了這一個我們自己的採購之外其實還是有一定的局限在不然現在這些新創的這些東西如果可以賣出去的話全部都賣到全世界的市場那我想說跟美方的積極交流的部分你們的計畫是什麼"},{"start":530.263,"end":546.824,"text":"我先講一下現在美國要求的資安認證就是CMMC嘛這一個體制之下那是在2019年有提出來那這一個網路安全成熟度的模型這個東西2019年提出來那過去是其實是分類的很"},{"start":548.025,"end":570.591,"text":"調整是從五個級別那現在是2.0百是三個級別那就是基礎防護、進階防護跟專家級防護我們要談的是當我們要進入美方的市場當我們要進入人家的國防產業鏈要接軌就是說我們不必要重新說我們要加入要加入但是如果我們最基本的資安的要求沒有達到的話"},{"start":572.333,"end":578.546,"text":"那你怎麼加入那所以我想知道說怎麼樣跟美國的這個合作這就很重要你的規格你的規制"},{"start":581.404,"end":603.346,"text":"臺灣不能夠我們自己做一版然後跟美國如果不通用的話那重新每次的這一種你申請的過程或者說你要進入他們的產業鏈的這種驗證的過程那就會非常長不知道部長在這方面我想請教一下現在FMC的2.0的架構出來之後我們現在已經積極的在跟美方做溝通"},{"start":605.007,"end":629.414,"text":"細節部分可能沒有辦法透露但是總之就是說有一個關鍵就是說到底在台灣這裡本地有沒有第三方的認證的一個機制那如果美國可以在這裡設立一個第三方認證的機制的話對於整個CMMC通過的認證所需要的費用會相當大幅度的減低這一點是很重要的我們現在正在跟他密切的在做研討當中"},{"start":630.134,"end":651.229,"text":"今年是2024年,2026年就全面實施,所以說,我們是希望能夠先把這個強制的要求先釐清,這個沒有什麼機密性,就是你如果要進入他們的產業鏈,你就必須要打到這些東西,那這個可能未來要跟我們自己的……詳細的這個溝通狀況可能還是讓我有一點……"},{"start":652.149,"end":674.234,"text":"對,我們跟他再積極的再討論評估。謝謝部長,我還是在強調,就是包含如果我們直接進入他們的DIU的這種網站,進去的這種視覺化或者是可親近性就很高了,因為他是要跟民間商業,他要有效率的,能夠,那剛剛這邊也寫了嘛,要說你的語言。"},{"start":675.314,"end":694.122,"text":"說不是國防部的語言,國防部的語言我說聽不太懂,因為我們是來自民間的。說我們的語言,說民間的語言,那這樣子我們的產業才能夠進去美國的市場。那所以包含未來,你說你這個系統上面,網路上面的這種情報上面的分享,或者是說你要讓更多民間的產業進來的話,說他們的語言。"},{"start":697.603,"end":699.984,"text":"接下來請林益君委員 林益君委員不在 請徐巧欣委員上台諮詢"}]}},{"id":"154622","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154622","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f80999ca0650ae5e997345d751ed3a12a690a5faf2fa6890fce588b5cd50b116635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:31:52 - 10:43:11","影片長度":"00:11:19","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS通勤月票辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:31:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:43:11+08:00","duration":679,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":298,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時32分）謝謝主席，本席邀請交通部李孟諺部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["李部長孟諺：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：我今天還是要再跟你討論一些臺南的事情，幫我們臺南鄉親爭取一些來自中央的幫助。現在我們在推TPASS，有一個系統就是南高屏，部長，你也長期在臺南服務過，你知道臺南的地形是南北狹長，搭高鐵如果從臺南站上車，要坐19分鐘才會到嘉義，等於用兩百多公里的時速要跑20分鐘才能離開臺南，南北很狹長，因此，北臺南就是我們說的溪北地區，尤其是大新營地區，它的生活圈其實根本都不是跟高雄在一起，所以你那個TPASS以南高屏範圍，根本一半的臺南人不會使用。所以臺南市政府現在要結合嘉義縣市要來推一個嘉嘉南生活圈通勤需求，尤其現在溪北地區也逐步的要開發，台積電也要去嘉義投資，所以現在嘉嘉南的TPASS，臺南市政府希望交通部能夠給予幫助，幫助什麼呢？就是它需要一些通勤人數的統計，這樣它才可以計算出跟嘉義合作以後TPASS的價格。那為什麼需要推一個嘉嘉南系統呢？就是要讓我們溪北地方尤其是大新營地區的民眾來使用。若以嘉義民雄到南科的生活圈為例，一天來回火車票要160塊錢，如果上班20天啦，一個月通勤火車票就要3,200塊錢，如果推TPASS，可以大幅減輕民眾的負擔。但是現在嘉嘉南的TPASS還沒有把臺鐵納入，希望未來要把臺鐵納進來。現在因為臺南、嘉義是不同系統的平台，局長知道，嘉義一個系統，臺南一個系統，臺南現在用的是南高屏系統，所以如果北臺南要跟嘉義合作的話，第一、需要技術串接及運具系統程式修改經費，還有票務系統的串連，這現在都已經有提案了，要請中央幫忙，部長，對這部分你有什麼看法？是不是能請你協助？"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，目前臺南有299和399的自己的方案，嘉義有399的方案，我們現在跟臺南及嘉義在協助，就是怎麼樣這兩個縣市可以整合變成一個嘉嘉南的方案，把臺鐵也納進來，目前正在研議，我們也會在行政上和補助上，比如試行系統的建置上給予最大的協助。"],["林委員俊憲：好，其中有一些經費更需要交通部補助，例如電子票證製作，民眾搭乘各類公共運輸，如果買月票也有優待票，跟正常票價之間的差額，這個部分交通部也可以納為補助項目，還有票證系統的建置、程式開發和修改，這個請……"],["李部長孟諺：尤其臺南溪北，他如果搭高鐵都要到朴子。"],["林委員俊憲：都要去朴子，所以你……"],["李部長孟諺：另外有一些人是在嘉中唸書，所以相關的通勤確實是有必要。"],["林委員俊憲：部長很瞭解臺南，其實溪北地方、大新營地區，它跟嘉義根本就是一個生活圈，所以臺南其實分成兩個生活圈，一個是跟高雄比較接近，另外一個部分，北臺南你要另外考量，謝謝部長。"],["李部長孟諺：尤其臺南古早時代是諸羅縣，跟嘉義是同一個縣。"],["林委員俊憲：所以跟部長談臺南市政很輕鬆，你也很清楚。","另外，我這裡有一個建議，部長知道去（2023）年全國交通事故的死傷總人數有多少人嗎？有54萬2,000人；其中騎機車的，包含重型機車的死傷人數是42萬1,000人，。也就是全國一年的車禍死傷人數，騎機車的將近占78%，所以其實在臺灣騎機車非常危險，而且占肇事死傷人數的78%。那我們要如何降低死傷人數，就應該從降低機車的車禍事故發生來多方面著手。","而交通事故都發生在哪裡？有很多地方沒有大眾運輸工具，6都加總起來，因為人口稠密，所以6都加總起來又占了機車所有肇事事件的七成。因為人多，很多地方基本上使用的交通工具還是機車，他們的機車數目，我看幾乎都是一個人一台，差不多兩千多萬台。臺南雖然是6都裡面人口最少，但比較起來臺南的大眾運輸還是相對落後。所以臺南人口雖然是6都最少，但相較於其他直轄市，臺南的機車肇事件數是全國第四。","那要怎麼做才能降低機車肇事率？統計很久，交通部也有發現，而交通部現在在推動，就是機車駕訓班。大部分人去考機車駕照都是自己學自己騎，實際上很少人會去機車駕訓班，那交通部為什麼要來推這個，其實這是有研究數據的。如果有去機車駕訓班訓練完成考到機車駕照，後來發生車禍的比例大幅減少，有受訓的比沒受訓的在違規方面少了快六成。"],["李部長孟諺：對。"],["林委員俊憲：他可能就比較懂交通規則，我在猜啦！違規的。"],["李部長孟諺：對，是。"],["林委員俊憲：如果有受過駕訓班訓練的，比沒有受過駕訓班訓練的肇事、發生車禍少了36%。"],["李部長孟諺：對。"],["林委員俊憲：民眾於考照1年後及考照3年後，其平均違規率或肇事率都明顯下降。","現在交通部在推駕訓班，我覺得效果很差，推行到現在還是只有12.6%的民眾考照是經過機車駕訓班，全國平均可以使用的名額都用不完。交通部有補助地方政府，考交通駕照要去駕訓班，政府幫你出錢，一個好像是出1,300元，是不是這樣？"],["李部長孟諺：對。"],["林委員俊憲：但每個縣市財源不一樣，臺北市就很有錢，幾乎是剩下的臺北市政府全部買單；臺南市政府大概比較不行，民眾一般還要再負擔差不多將近一千多塊，將近2,000塊。但是這個名額為什麼都用不完？全國用88%其實都集中在比較進步的臺北、雙北，臺南的使用名額只有57%，不到六成，很多地方你看平均都只有百分之十幾，使用名額的比例非常非常低。","有幾個原因，第一個，駕訓班設置的點還很少。駕訓班跟一般考汽車不一樣，機車駕訓班有時候小小一個空地就可以，其實應該要落實到行政區、落實到社區。過去交通部拿臺南第一個試辦，就是機車駕訓班讓它到地方，比較有社區性，不過我希望，交通部既然要推機車駕訓班，那你應該要讓民眾第一個是有便利性，如果他去機車駕訓班還要跑很遠，基本上普及率就拉不起來。像臺南的機車駕訓班，臺南只有永康、仁德和歸仁有，臺南就只有這幾個點，就5個點，而且行政區只在永康，仁德，歸仁。臺灣有很多縣市都是在5家以下，其中有6個縣市是全縣只有1家，所以便利性一定很不足。","此外，去駕訓班的應該讓他可以原地考照，現在有24間是沒辦法原地考照，那誰要去那邊練習？基本上我們現在讓民眾便利就是，如果他在這個場地練習，這個地方既然是機車駕訓班的場地，就應該允許他可以原地考照才對，現在有好幾十間都沒辦法提供這些服務。簡單一句話，你要推這個政策就要讓它推成功，你推到現在，誘因還有普及率都那麼低，現在考機車駕照的了還是只有12.6%有經過駕訓班。那你明明知道到機車駕訓班上過課的，1年、3年的統計，其肇事及違規風險都大幅降低，既然政策要推就要好好地推動，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，現在這些很多是新設的，設1年之後經過審核就可以原地考照，所以目前還在推……"],["林委員俊憲：點數還是太少。"],["在場人員：是，還會再加。"],["李部長孟諺：對，所以大概1年內應該就會陸續增加。"],["林委員俊憲：好，我們希望通部，如果你要推動，希望能夠全力協助地方政府來推動。好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：林俊憲委員發言完畢。","現在請陳素月委員。陳素月委員委員發言完畢之後，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-19","speakers":["李昆澤","陳素月","廖先翔","何欣純","林國成","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳雪生","林沛祥","蔡其昌","邱若華","牛煦庭","陳俊宇","游顥"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS 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台南大眾運輸還是相對的落後所以台南人口雖然六都最少但是啊相較於其他直轄市呢 台南的機車造勢的建樹是全國第四那要怎麼走開人家幹的這個機車的造勢"},{"start":396.124,"end":408.995,"text":"所以你如果統計研究也是交通部有發現那交通部現在在推動就是機車駕訓班我們大部分的人去考機車駕照都是自己學自己騎實際上很少人會去機車駕訓班那交通部為什麼你要來推這個其實這是有研究數據的"},{"start":419.557,"end":440.444,"text":"你如果有去機車駕訓班,訓練後,考到機車的價值,你後來發生車禍的比例大幅減少,有受訓的比沒受訓的在違規方面少了快六成,他可能就比較懂交通規則啦,我在猜啦,違規啦"},{"start":442.315,"end":462.688,"text":"如果有受過駕訓班的比沒有受過駕訓班的肇事、化妝、車禍少了36%民眾在考照一年後還有考照三年後也平均違規率或肇事率都明顯的下降所以現在交通部在推這個駕訓班我認為好過很壞推行到現在還是只有12.6%的民眾他考照是經過機車駕訓班"},{"start":472.045,"end":495.028,"text":"全國平均可使用的名額都用不完,因為我們交通部部長有地方政府,你如果要靠交通架腳,要去架分班,政府幫你倒出錢,一個人好像出一千三百塊吧,是不是這樣?但每個縣市財源不一樣,臺北市就很有錢,臺北市幾乎剩下的,臺北市政府全部買單。"},{"start":496.879,"end":519.806,"text":"臺南市政府大概比較不行啦民眾一般大概要再負擔差不多將近一千多塊啦將近兩千塊啦但是這個名額為什麼用不完你全國用百分之八十八齁其實都集中在比較進步的臺北、雙北加拿大臺南的使用名額只有百分之五十七啦不到六成很多地方齁你看平均都只有十幾趴啦全國"},{"start":523.125,"end":541.236,"text":"這個使用這個名額的比例啊非常非常低啊有幾個原因啊第一個你駕訓班齁設置的點數還很少啦其實駕訓班跟一般考汽車不一樣啊機車駕訓班有時候少少一個空地就可以啦那其實應該要落實到行政區落實到社區去啦過去齁交通部拿台南做第一個示範齁交通部讓台南示範那個就是那個"},{"start":553.705,"end":580.962,"text":"機車駕訓班讓他到地方來到比較有社區性不過我希望交通部部長你既然要推這種機車駕訓班那你應該要讓民眾有一個第一個方便性就是你希望他你如果他要去機車駕訓班然後還要跑很遠他基本上你這個普舉率就拉不起來"},{"start":582.657,"end":608.636,"text":"那像臺南的機車駕訓班齁,那個部長,我們臺南只有英空臨地到整條路啦臺南就只有這幾個點啦,只有五個點啦而且行政區只在永康、仁德、奎仁那臺灣有很多縣市啦,就是在五家以下其中有六個縣市齁,全縣啦,全縣市只有一家啦所以這個便利性啦,一定很不足啦"},{"start":610.1,"end":638.08,"text":"還有你去駕訓班應該讓他可以原地考照我們現在有24間醫學部幫我原地考照的那誰要去那邊練習基本上我們現在讓民眾便利就是說他在這個場地如果來練習你應該讓這個地方如果既然是機車駕訓班的場地就應該允許他可以原地考照這樣才對你現在有20間都沒辦法提供這樣好不好簡單一句話你要推這個政策我就要讓他推成功"},{"start":639.329,"end":648.099,"text":"你推到現在那個誘因還有普及率都那麼低啦現在考機車駕照了還是只有12.6%有經過駕訓班那你明明知道機車駕訓班上過課的"},{"start":654.639,"end":679.419,"text":"一年三年的統計他的肇事還有違規風險都大幅降低那麼就既然政策要推就要好好的推動好不好跟委員報告就是現在這些很多是新設的那設一年之後就可以經過審核就可以原地考照所以目前還在推動所以大概一年內應該就會陸續增加好我們希望交通部如果你要推動希望能夠全力來協助地方政府來推動"}]}},{"id":"154621","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154621","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8343c7556bb418a5c7345d751ed3a12a690a5faf2fa6890fca2f0af228fb527a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"10:22:15 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check。"],["廖委員先翔：對，我只是希望推出這個政策，我想不會有民意代表反對，畢竟它就是撒錢去做補貼，只是撒的錢到底有沒有意義，才是我們關注的重點，如果撒的錢只是有點類似補助民眾而已，沒有辦法增加大眾運輸使用率的話，那我會認為我們交通部的這個政策沒有達到當初設定的目標，務必要再推出一個政策，提升民眾大公共運輸的使用率，這個政策才叫做成功，如果跟疫情前比我們並沒有顯著的成長的話，那我們花了這幾十億、兩百億，我認為只是有點類似政策買票的概念而已。"],["李部長孟諺：另外就是除了提升大眾運輸使用率，我們也希望縮小城鄉差距，讓住得離蛋黃區稍微遠一點的人一樣可以減輕負擔，這個對居住正義，我們覺得也有一些幫助。"],["廖委員先翔：我提供一些我個人搭乘大眾運輸的體驗，因為臺灣的公共運輸跟國外比確實價格便宜非常多，所以許多的民眾其實在乎的不一定是價格，許多民眾在乎的是搭乘舒適度。我不知道部長最近有沒有機會看到搭公車的民眾，因為公車司機缺員導致班次減少，民眾搭乘公車的時候跟擠沙丁魚一樣，這是非常不好的乘車體驗。每一個人在選擇公共運輸的時候可能會有不同的原因，有的人是因為價格，有的人是因為舒適度，我覺得交通部不要只用價格來考量，好像做一個政策性的補貼就是交通政策的成功，好像很多人買就很成功，問題是買的這些人本來就是在搭乘大眾運輸工具，我們的政策並沒有達到當初設定的目標。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["廖委員先翔：我是希望從兩個面向著手，交通部願意補助搭乘的民眾，我當然覺得很好，但是我們也希望交通部能夠提升我們大眾運輸搭乘的品質，我上禮拜搭臺鐵來立院差點遲到，因為第一班我擠不上去，第二班我是硬擠、貼在門上才搭過來的，這就是搭乘體驗嘛！唯有雙管齊下，在搭乘體驗的部分也同步的提升，我相信才能夠提升民眾使用大眾運輸的使用率。我希望交通部所有的統計資料，不要用美化後對自己有利的統計資料來呈現，希望往後相關的數據都能夠把疫情前跟疫情後的數據來做比較，這才會比較有意義。"],["李部長孟諺：我們會虛心來面對，那有很多待改善的，譬如該提升品質的，我們也會來努力。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝部長，謝謝局長。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖先翔委員。","現在請林俊憲委員發言。","先做以下宣告：在陳素月委員發言完畢之後，我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-19","speakers":["李昆澤","陳素月","廖先翔","何欣純","林國成","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳雪生","林沛祥","蔡其昌","邱若華","牛煦庭","陳俊宇","游顥"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS 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謝謝部長今天應該是我們這個會期最後一次的答詢為了表示我的慎重我昨天還特地去剪了頭髮希望我們今天的答詢能夠愉快我們今天要討論TPASS的使用我們TPASS推出來的最主要的目的"},{"start":37.202,"end":55.585,"text":"最主要的目的應該是要提升我們公共運輸的使用率嘛對不對如果說只是單純減輕民眾的負擔沒有辦法提升公共運輸的使用率那就單純的就是一個單純的政治買票而已所以說我們在報告裡面才會特別強調我們從111年7月到112年4月跟112年7月到113年4月就是同樣的月份去對一個比較我們運量提升了12.7%"},{"start":66.247,"end":91.866,"text":"當然還有其他的一些細項但是我們在討論一個科學化的統計的時候我想必須要有一些科學化的一些的一些做法我們比如在做一些化學實驗的時候我們一定要什麼我們要有實驗組跟對照組對不對我們要排除掉實驗組跟對照組除了那項變因以外的其他變因我們都要去排除來確認"},{"start":93.527,"end":120.279,"text":"我們去做的這一項變因到底對它實際上面的影響有多大我們在做TPASS也一樣我們從我們111年7月開始有幾項我們臺灣公共運輸一些比較大的一些變化包括你們有提到整個南部的公共自行車或者是南部公共運輸有所成長有許多的變因這跟兩位報告一下"},{"start":121.837,"end":149.385,"text":"我們統計從110年7月開始那我們在也就是2022年那我們在2022年10月5號的時候高雄捷運美術館站到愛河之心啟用同樣的高雄捷運在2024年1月1號愛河之心到凱旋公園啟用那我們高雄的輕軌才是一個完整的環境線嘛是嘛那也因為高雄輕軌環境線的完整啟用"},{"start":152.056,"end":170.047,"text":"相信也會造成我們這個搭乘使用率的一個上升所以說我們的一些報告比如說南部生活圈高屏成長20.5最高我想除了我們的TPASS我們這個捷運建設入廊的一個健全我認為這才是一個最主要的原因那包括我們的自行車公共自行車成長23.8%"},{"start":173.527,"end":195.714,"text":"在2022年11月16號的時候高雄UBIKE 2.01啟用了那當然陸陸續續就增加了很多站以及台北市的UBIKE在今年的2月8號恢復了前30分鐘免費這些都是除了我們TPASS以外的一些公共政策上面的一些改變那也因為他們的改變顯著的"},{"start":197.836,"end":206.715,"text":"成長的這個公共運輸的使用率那我們要那包括剛剛我們趙薇講的我們的疫情指揮中心事態的時候解散的"},{"start":208.154,"end":236.491,"text":"是在2023年的5月1號也就是在我們這一次的統計數據跟上一次的統計數據之間我們一起中間去做解散那在疫情中心解散了之後疫情的影響降低之後那包括公共運輸入網的一個完善自行車案完善導致我們的運量上升那要把這些運量上升的結果通通歸功於我們TPASS的一個月票的推出我認為這有點自我感覺良好"},{"start":237.031,"end":265.655,"text":"就比如說我們在考量到我們餐廳的一個業績好了我們可以說我們今年餐廳業績跟疫情期間業績我們暴增了10倍那你認為這樣子統計數據有意義嗎?它有許多不同的客觀因素那包括疫情也是一個很大的一個因素因此我認為剛剛我們李孟哲召委特別提出來疫情前跟疫情後的公共運輸的一個數據的一個比較它才是有意義的"},{"start":266.892,"end":294.07,"text":"以阪南縣來講我們應該要拿疫情前阪南縣的使用人數使用率來跟疫情後阪南縣或者是淡水縣的使用人數來比他才是有意義的啊因為我們並沒有做路線的變換我們並沒有政策上面的改變我們也排除掉疫情導致我們力量降低先蹲後跳的一個成長的因素啊那我們確實如剛剛我們的李昆哲教委講的在疫情前"},{"start":295.307,"end":310.682,"text":"的使用率跟我們疫情後的大眾使用率來相比我們推出了TPASS之後反而使用率還降低了這在剛剛的答詢之中你們並沒有回答出你們的一些檢討原因我們這部分可不可以先針對這部分來做一個說明"},{"start":311.583,"end":339.183,"text":"跟委員報告,就是當然大眾運輸的使用因素的這個升或降有很多種因素,譬如說可能疫情的考量,人不希望季節,那另外譬如說UBIKE恢復30分鐘的免費,還有譬如說入網的比較健全,新增的入網我想都會增加使用率,那不過從TPASS實施後確實像臺北捷運它的運量是增加了11.26,那桃園"},{"start":341.305,"end":341.425,"text":"陶傑增加68.1%"},{"start":365.854,"end":372.898,"text":"臺中捷運是增加31.7%不過這個數字當然委員建議說可不可以跟疫情前再做比較我只是希望推出這個政策我想不會有民意代表反對畢竟他就是一個傻錢"},{"start":391.607,"end":391.867,"text":"李孟諺主席"},{"start":410.234,"end":410.254,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":440.955,"end":454.815,"text":"提供一些我個人搭乘大眾運輸的體驗因為台灣的公共運輸跟國外比確實價格是便宜非常的多所以許多的民眾其實他在乎的不一定是價格許多民眾在乎的是搭乘的舒適度"},{"start":456.041,"end":478.033,"text":"我不知道部長最近有沒有機會看到搭公車的民眾因為公車司機的缺顏導致班次減少到每個民眾搭乘公車的時候跟擠沙丁一樣他是非常不好的乘車的體驗每一個人在是否選擇公共運輸的時候可能會有不同的原因有的人選因為價格有的人是因為舒適度"},{"start":479.538,"end":479.678,"text":"主席"},{"start":501.677,"end":520.773,"text":"兩個面向我們交通部願意補助我們搭乘的民眾我當然覺得很好但是我們也希望能夠提升我們大眾運輸的搭乘的一個品質包括上禮拜搭台鐵來我們立院我差點遲到因為第一班我擠不上去啊第二班我是硬擠貼在門上我才搭過來啊這就是搭乘體驗嘛"},{"start":521.914,"end":548.639,"text":"那我們唯有雙管齊下我們在搭乘體驗的部分也同步的來做提升我相信才能夠提升我們民眾使用大眾運輸的一個使用率那我希望我們所有的統計的資料不要用美化後對自己有利的一個統計資料來做呈現而已一定往後希望相關的數據都能夠把疫情前的數據來跟疫情後的數據來做比較我相信這才會比較有意義"},{"start":549.58,"end":555.917,"text":"我們會虛心來面對 那有很多待改善的 譬如說該提升品質的 我們也會來努力好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝局長"}]}},{"id":"154620","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154620","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8b902c4a884056a167345d751ed3a12a690a5faf2fa6890fc19d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:10:21 - 10:21:54","影片長度":"00:11:33","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS通勤月票辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:10:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:21:54+08:00","duration":693,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":236,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（10時10分）謝謝主席，請一下李部長、陳局長及臺鐵杜董事長。"],["主席：請李部長、陳局長及杜董事長。"],["李委員昆澤：部長好。"],["李部長孟諺：召委好。"],["李委員昆澤：我先就教於臺鐵，我請教杜微董事長，藍皮解憂號的票價調整，其實它也不是這兩天調整，它在5月1號就已經調整票價了，這兩天社會多所議論，最主要是臺鐵當初在2021年的時候，它是以固定的價格來出租給旅行社，就是雄獅旅行社，我記得在2021年的時候，它的全票票價是499，它還有平日的限量優惠是299，當時是在打廣告，蠻便宜的；到2022年的時候，它調整票價到全票599，但是臺鐵當初也有一些的基本要求，也就是屏東跟臺東的民眾有特別的優惠，全票一般人是599，但臺東跟屏東是399。5月1號調整之後，臺東跟屏東的票價還是399嗎？請說明一下。"],["杜董事長微：調整到499。"],["李委員昆澤：調整到499，399調整到499，也調整了100塊。全票的部分，從2021年的499到2022年的599，到5月1號調整為699。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["李委員昆澤：當初藍皮解憂號，其實不只是藍皮解憂號，鳴日號、鳴日廚房同樣都是出租給旅行社，我要提醒董事長，票價的調整臺鐵有跟他們討論嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有，他們要提出他們的方案以後，我們公司會做審核。"],["李委員昆澤：他們最主要的方案應該就是因為他們的薪水有調整，或是藍皮解憂號有相關的贈品，而這些贈品的價格也調整，但是這個調整的幅度是高了一點，我還是要提醒杜董事長。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["李委員昆澤：最主要的是，因為鳴日號是賺錢的，是很賺錢的，尤其是在疫情期間，因為國人出國比較困難，所以它在疫情期間真的是一票難求，就算現在疫情和緩，它平日也應該都有八成左右的搭乘量，是不是？"],["杜董事長微：有。"],["李委員昆澤：所以我要提醒部長跟董事長的就是，客運有幾條黃金路線、這一家公司有黃金路線，它也必須搭配一些沒有那麼賺錢的路線；國際航空也是一樣，它有黃金的航線，它也必須要搭配幾條沒有那麼賺錢的航線。我認為站在推動國旅這樣的一個角度，這個票價的調整以後部長還是要跟臺鐵來討論是否漲幅過高，這個都必須要來面對。","我們接下來就討論TPASS的問題，我們在2023年的7月啟用，其實到今年的6月30號為止，搭乘的人次已經達到5.74億人次，累計有768萬8,000人次購買TPASS相關的優惠。部長，我要提醒你，我們搭乘的人次不但沒有增加還減少，今年1至4月的搭乘總人次對比2019年的同期，就是1至4月，整體減少了，就是所有的載具減少了9.1%，其實臺鐵還有微幅的成長，大概微幅成長0.2%，高雄捷運也大概成長13%左右，臺北捷運反而是下跌的，臺北捷運下降了5.3%。汽車客運減少了20.5%，市區客運減少18.5%，公路客運減少了37.3%，下滑嚴重，顯示TPASS所吸引的就是原本使用公共運輸的人，它沒有吸引到新的使用者。部長，你們要怎麼辦？這個政策是好的，但是它的成效沒有如我們預期的，搭乘公共運輸的人次會成長，反而是衰退的，為什麼？來，說明一下。"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，從實施以來到6月為止，每月平均的購買人數大概是64萬，累計到768萬。最高峰是在去年10月，大概71萬，每個月的平均，其實這幾個月，大概4月、5月都到67萬，所以它是……"],["李委員昆澤：部長，這個沒問題，我說的搭乘的總人次也好，或者是購買的總人次，它的數目看起來都滿大的。"],["李部長孟諺：有一些波動。"],["李委員昆澤：但是搭乘公共運輸的人是減少的，你來看，2023年臺北市交通民意調查報告，公共運輸的通行者是衰退的，它也不是現在才發生，這是一個交通公共運輸重要問題的趨勢，2019年的時候還有48.2%，2023年下降成39.3%，然後交通部在2022年也有相關的調查報告，公共運輸的市占率2009年還有16.3%，到2022年變成14.3%，都是下降的，我們必須要來面對這個問題，來，部長說明一下。"],["李部長孟諺：是，有一些細節，我是不是請局長向您報告？"],["李委員昆澤：來，請陳局長。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，確實因為3年的疫情，整個公共運輸的使用量其實是一直在衰退，所以在TPASS加入之後，其實是將前3年因為疫情一直衰退的整個公共運輸……"],["李委員昆澤：你的意思是說本來會衰退得更嚴重？"],["陳局長文瑞：是，現在……"],["李委員昆澤：有這個政策之後，衰退得沒有那麼嚴重？"],["陳局長文瑞：而且已經要開始……"],["李委員昆澤：你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，而且要恢復了，因為108年是疫情前，所以那個時候公共運輸的量其實是成長最高峰的。"],["李委員昆澤：這個理由我不太接受，我還是要提醒部長，我們的公共運輸是遠遠地落後其他國家，你看，我們臺灣公共運輸的市占率整體是18.2%，日本是36%，英國是36%，然後亞洲各大城市的對比，我們臺北是37.2%，臺北算高的，但香港是87%，新加坡是86%，東京是84%，首爾是57%，差很大，所以部長，你們的責任很大，公共運輸必須要提升它的市占率。","當然，推動公共運輸有五項指標，就是價格要可以負擔、私人載具的成本與障礙，我們要讓公共運輸的價格比較可以負擔嘛。道路的建設、交通網的密度、速度也要提升，通勤的時間要能夠更縮短，以及舒適度、票務系統的方便度、電子化的方便度、轉乘的方便度，還有安全跟環境的影響。部長，這些都是很重要的指標，來，說明一下。"],["李部長孟諺：是，我想確實臺灣的公共運輸還有很大的成長空間，包括像路網的建設密度、票務的方便性，還有可負擔的程度等等，我想這個部分我們會持續努力推動，增加路網的密度，包括捷運的建設、公車路網的建置、票證的整合，還有最佳化路線的規畫。"],["李委員昆澤：好啦，時間的關係，我有簡單的幾項建議。第一個，在票務的價格方面，我們應該要提升服務品質以及安全性，這是首要的目標，我們要以良好的服務品質來帶動運載量的上升，改善財務狀況，如果你一昧的調高票價，會導致搭乘意願更低這樣的一個惡性循環，交通部要提供必要的協助，這我也說給杜董事長聽，你們藍皮解憂號越來越貴，現在是699元，不知道在坐什麼？這個票價太高了！","第二個，交通網密度不足的問題我們必須要面對，就是以區域的概念來推動區域的交通建設，中南部地區公共運輸系統的建設不足，是推展國際觀光的一個阻力，也是中南部民眾的痛，市占率都還是個位數，都必須要再提升。針對班次、候車時間以及轉乘的距離，這個都要去做改善。提高接駁、轉乘的密度，及推動票務與系統的整合，來提高公共運輸的便利性，然後我們要全面盤點各項交通系統的整合及安全性的問題並進行改善，提高民眾公共運輸的信賴度。部長，我還是要提醒你，我們對公共運輸的市占率，這個是很重要的工作，我不太能接受陳局長所說的，如果沒有TPASS，這個市占率會衰退得更嚴重，不就好在我們有TPASS，讓我們的衰退沒有那麼嚴重，本來要送加護病房，現在是住一般病房，大家應該要誇獎交通部，這是不對的！因為整體來說，我們的衰退以國內前幾年來比較，這兩、三年來是逐漸地下降，跟世界各國來比真的是慘不忍睹，這個公共運輸的提升，我想部長除了提高交通系統的安全性之外，對於交通公共運輸市占率的提升，也是你們未來的重要工作。以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝李昆澤召委的質詢。"],["主席（李委員昆澤）：謝謝陳素月委員。","現在請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-19","speakers":["李昆澤","陳素月","廖先翔","何欣純","林國成","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳雪生","林沛祥","蔡其昌","邱若華","牛煦庭","陳俊宇","游顥"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS 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這個票價調整 台鐵有跟他們討論嗎有 他們要提出他們的方案以後我們公司會做審核他們最主要的方案應該就是說因為他們的薪水有調整或是說他們藍皮9號有相關的贈品這些贈品的票價也調整這些價格也調整但是這個調整的幅度是高了一點我還是要提醒杜董事長"},{"start":159.042,"end":183.88,"text":"最主要是說因為他的名字號是賺錢的是很賺錢的尤其是在疫情期間因為國人出國比較困難所以他真的是一票難求疫情期間就算現在疫情和緩他平日也應該都有八成左右的搭乘量是不是所以說部長跟局長我要提醒就是說我們客運"},{"start":185.629,"end":185.729,"text":"李昆澤"},{"start":201.861,"end":202.862,"text":"接下來就討論TPASS的問題"},{"start":223.584,"end":241.088,"text":"TPASS問題我看我們在2023年的7月啟用其實到今年的6月30號為止搭乘的人次已經達到5.74億人次那累計有768萬8千人的人次購買TPASS的這個相關的這個優惠那其實"},{"start":251.138,"end":267.495,"text":"部長我要提醒你,我們搭乘的人次沒有增加,還減少。今年一至四月的搭乘總人次,對比2019年的同期,就是一至四月,整體減少了,就是所有的載具,減少了9.1"},{"start":270.519,"end":287.903,"text":"其實台鐵還有維吾的成長大概維吾成長0.2高雄捷運也大概有成長這樣的13%的左右台北捷運反而是下跌的台北捷運下降了5.3%那機車客運減少了20.5%市區客運減少18.5%公路客運減少了37.3%"},{"start":295.802,"end":295.922,"text":"為什麼?來說明一下"},{"start":322.754,"end":337.47,"text":"委員跟您報告就是大概從實施以來到6月為止平均大概每月購買人數大概是64萬那累計是到768萬那最高峰的是在去年的10月大概71萬"},{"start":338.951,"end":339.011,"text":"李昆澤"},{"start":355.516,"end":356.258,"text":"公共運輸的這些通勤者"},{"start":369.687,"end":382.834,"text":"他是衰退他也不是現在才發生這是一個交通公共運輸的重要問題的趨勢就是說2019年的時候還有48.22023年下降成39.3然後交通部在2022年也有相關的調查報告公共運輸的市佔率2009年還有16.3到2022年變成14.3都是有下降的然後我"},{"start":399.537,"end":425.286,"text":"我們必須要來面對這個問題來部長您說明一下有一些細節我是不是請局長請陳局長來跟委員報告確實因為三年的疫情其實這個整個公共運輸的這個使用量其實是一直在衰退所以在TPASS的這個加入之後的話其實是一直將這個以前衰退三年疫情的衰退的你的意思是說本來會衰退的更嚴重"},{"start":425.626,"end":426.306,"text":"公共運輸是遠遠的落後其他的國家"},{"start":447.233,"end":454.077,"text":"你看我們的公共運輸的市佔率臺灣整體是18.2日本是36%英國是36%然後亞洲各大城市的對比臺北是37.2臺北算高的臺北37.2香港是87新加坡是86東京是84首爾是57"},{"start":473.226,"end":489.223,"text":"差很大耶!差很大耶!所以說部長我們的責任很大的啦!責任很大啦!這個公共運輸的必須要提升它的市佔率嘛!我們剛才我們的推動公共運輸當然有五項指標啦!"},{"start":490.364,"end":511.897,"text":"價格要可以負擔、私人載具的成本與障礙我們要公共運輸價格比較可以負擔道路的建設、交通網的密度也要提升速度通勤的時間要能夠更縮短舒適度、票務系統的方便度、電子化的方便度轉乘的方便度還有安全跟環境的影響"},{"start":513.595,"end":539.54,"text":"這都是很重要的指標來說明一下是我想確實台灣的公共運輸還有很大的成長空間包括像入網的建設密度還有票務的方便性等等還有可負擔的程度我想這個部分我們會持續的來努力來推動增加入網的密度包括捷運的建設公車入網的建置還有票證的整合"},{"start":542.262,"end":563.119,"text":"時間的關係我有簡單的幾項建議第一個在票物的價格方面我們應該要以提升服務品質以及安全性這是首要的目標那我們要以良好的服務品質來帶動運載量的上升那改善財務狀況如果你一昧的調高票價"},{"start":563.82,"end":578.209,"text":"他是會導致搭乘意願更低的惡性循環 交通部要提供必要的協助這我也說給杜董事長聽 你藍皮幾號 越來越貴 現在699 不吃你借三 這票價太高了"},{"start":585.934,"end":595.519,"text":"交通網密度不足問題必須面對以區域概念推動區域交通建設中南部地區公共運輸系統建設不足"},{"start":598.456,"end":598.516,"text":"李昆澤"},{"start":618.735,"end":643.885,"text":"提高這個接駁轉稱的密度來推動票務及系統的整合來提高這個公共運輸的便利性然後我們要全面盤點各項的交通系統的整合及安全性的問題來進行改善提高民眾公共運輸的信賴度部長我還是要提醒你我們對公共運輸的市佔率"},{"start":646.315,"end":674.203,"text":"這個是很重要的工作啦我不太能接受陳局長所說的如果沒有TPASS這個市佔率會衰退得更嚴重阿我們好家宅,我們有TPASS,讓我們的這個衰退沒那麼嚴重本來要送加護病房,現在是住一般病房大家應該要給交通部下落,這是不對的因為整體來說我們的衰退以國內自己來比較這兩三年來是逐漸的下降"},{"start":675.202,"end":693.117,"text":"南歐跟世界各國來比真的是慘不忍睹這公共運輸的提升我想部長除了提高交通系統的安全性之外對於交通的這樣的一個公共運輸的市佔率提升也是你未來一個重要的工作以上"}]}},{"id":"154619","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154619","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f84f6560d6789396257345d751ed3a12a690a5faf2fa6890fc73de26ceb07beb505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"10:00:43 - 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據我手頭資料是否正確"},{"start":284.397,"end":309.022,"text":"第一北北居桃使用量佔了八成但是其他兩成啊就只有就只有其他的縣市保證保證欸這個要怎麼解決啊這代表都會行是大受歡迎但是偏鄉"},{"start":310.708,"end":311.629,"text":"大眾運輸的使用率都有提升"},{"start":331.544,"end":331.664,"text":"不立!"},{"start":357.646,"end":381.218,"text":"還有所長跟這個局長我這裡也要有一個建議第一個北北基桃確實使用率是高的那它的高的優點是什麼當然是集中人草集中車輛集中路網比較集中其實臺北市本席做過市議員做過世界我很清楚"},{"start":381.758,"end":381.798,"text":"主席"},{"start":404.96,"end":428.078,"text":"黃金這個都要把它研究出來哪邊車輛不足哪一個時間是最需要這個研究所就要把它研究出來另外一個我還是要建議建議局長在做這些事的時候逃逐逐秒要有另外一種研究很明顯現在是印量有沒印據"},{"start":429.219,"end":429.359,"text":"中章頭"},{"start":449.314,"end":468.448,"text":"銀嘉蘭這等等這生活圈完全都是會不一樣所以我也要拜託我們部長當然你不可能管得這麼細膩在最起碼局長還有首長你要研究出來一套這些TPASS"},{"start":469.349,"end":469.709,"text":"主席"},{"start":488.815,"end":506.597,"text":"自然而然就會做得正確方法不對那就會做得不正確所以我要拜託我們陳局長還有我們林所長部長要督促把這個政策好的政策把它做好但是像這種印量油"},{"start":507.418,"end":522.667,"text":"沒車輛這個問題怎麼解決我也希望林所長好好提供幕僚參考的資料給部長去做政策的限制給局長去做這個執行的議題這樣的話我相信這個政策"},{"start":523.627,"end":541.416,"text":"老百姓會給你們賀財的好不好好也簡單跟我們報告剛剛提到有運量沒運據現在我們有一個市區的電動公車的補助那今年有合訂了1900台那我想剛剛逃逐逐秒如果說缺乏公車我們會來聊像雲嘉蘭啊"},{"start":543.338,"end":544.759,"text":"中南部也有協助很多"}]}},{"id":"154618","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154618","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8057a54545b1ac2a17345d751ed3a12a690a5faf2fa6890fcbc5f279a864bc0545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:49:10 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通勤月票辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.63784375,"end":8.485343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.83971875,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.74534375,"end":19.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.63971875,"end":20.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.60159375,"end":74.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.24284375,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.55846875,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.70159375,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.62971875000001,"end":132.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.51659375,"end":141.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.13534375,"end":230.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.53909375,"end":231.64034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.68659375000001,"end":253.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.11784375000002,"end":292.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.55909375000005,"end":349.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.17471875,"end":357.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.22471875,"end":353.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.64596875,"end":357.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.13096875,"end":369.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.13346875,"end":390.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.64971875000003,"end":400.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.24659375000005,"end":413.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.18159375000005,"end":464.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.88659375000003,"end":468.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.05909375000005,"end":468.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.86909375000005,"end":468.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.97034375000004,"end":469.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.02096875,"end":474.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.85159375,"end":475.90596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.57284375,"end":475.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.59784375000004,"end":597.6084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.28971875,"end":477.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.9965937500001,"end":612.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.85534375,"end":636.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.87659375,"end":637.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.9734687499999,"end":642.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.63096875,"end":643.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.64346875,"end":650.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.9040937500001,"end":655.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.47284375,"end":664.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.4897187500001,"end":656.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.5603437500001,"end":677.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.7859687499999,"end":678.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.3172187499999,"end":679.7053437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.959,"end":8.123,"text":"有請部長 跟我們 請部長 公路局局長 請陳局長"},{"start":18.769,"end":46.371,"text":"部長 局長針對TPASS這個政策本席是給予高度的肯定但是老實說我也覺得因為TPASS的上路我有點失望 有點困惑為什麼這樣說 因為我會認為現在的TPASS嚴格講起來是對基隆的民眾甚至對大台北的民眾有點於不掩霞實質上來講這是現在TPASS之後服務品質不但不足反而變更差"},{"start":47.131,"end":73.916,"text":"那我們現在看到的這些都是目前我想局長都很清楚可能部長第一次看到這全部都是在臺北等車等國道客運的基隆人那每天都是這樣的狀況這是白天上班這是一邊是白天上班一邊是晚上下班變成是說造成我們這些已經從這樣的狀況已經持續了至少3年以上基本上來講越來尤其是TPASS上路之後是越來越嚴重"},{"start":75.456,"end":81.004,"text":"原因其實很特別就是因為我們都知道司機繼續缺工但是呢"},{"start":82.725,"end":109.971,"text":"班次因為人數的增加又因為司機的缺工所以反而更開不出來我記得沒有錯我最近這半年沒有去調資料因為每個月搭乘用TPASS搭乘國道客運的人數都在增加甚至以前我記得是約略每天有3萬5千名基隆人搭乘這個國道客運來台北上班上課現在應該已經突破4萬人以上"},{"start":110.771,"end":131.429,"text":"那這樣的一個大型的人潮那他們當他們這個上班沒有辦法準時上班明明要趕9點的班他們必須6點就6點6點半就已經出門那晚上明明5點半已經下了班他們到家時間是8點8點半那本席身為基隆的民意代表本席是感到非常的心痛"},{"start":132.73,"end":148.033,"text":"甚至這樣講今天我也看到交通運營所的所長在這邊對吧我們也都知道基隆到台北這一段跟台北到桃園這一段在上班時間都是最困難的時候"},{"start":148.513,"end":150.114,"text":"本席有針對下面5點來請教我們交通部也順便做出建議"},{"start":170.521,"end":193.041,"text":"第一個 從我2月1號一上任之後我就一直請我們交通部研擬所謂的國道客運的補助請問什麼時候到位那請問這個金額大概是多少因為我從的時候5月的時候最後王部長要離開的時候說已經核定了不要擔心已經核定了那本來是說6月就會到位"},{"start":193.641,"end":210.597,"text":"其實我6月還沒有現在到7月現在最後面說8月那你們給我們個確切時間什麼時候到位那第二個來講就是說我們什麼時候這筆補助大概是多少的金額那至少讓我們知道說我們交通部有拿出實質的誠意去解決國道客運的問題"},{"start":214.841,"end":230.074,"text":"我先這樣講我代表基隆的民意代表講這句話但是同樣的問題也發生在桃園甚至新北也被影響到所以這個是TPASS在北北基整個交通上面所交通部所希望也應該做出的補助請回答"},{"start":232.842,"end":252.657,"text":"相關的先跟委員報告就是缺司機這個部分目前已經有幾個措施在進行比如說我們把駕駛的那個年紀從65歲提高到68歲讓有更多人可以來擔任那第二個有相關的一些加薪的措施目前平均大概每個駕駛大概有加薪5000塊月薪"},{"start":254.218,"end":254.418,"text":"李沛祥議員"},{"start":271.448,"end":292.015,"text":"大概增加了將近2900多位的駕駛那另外有關桃園基隆這7條比較特殊的這個國道那目前有一些正在研擬特殊的一個協助的方式因為確實他的運量離峰跟尖峰有很大的落差那細節我是不是請我們局長跟您報告一下"},{"start":292.715,"end":301.621,"text":"跟委員報告反映業者實質營運的成本國道科運交通部已經合併在今年5月1日調漲他們的運價因為TPASS是補助票價的差額所以目前業者要去公告提升的因為像我們TPASS是全額做補貼"},{"start":317.631,"end":317.671,"text":"主席"},{"start":336.867,"end":355.551,"text":"業者的營運成本的話接受這個我們的補貼像三排座的話就是說大概就是這個整個營運的成本這個我們的補貼是在接近百分之二十那四排座大概是百分之五局長你們直接跟我們講說這次的補貼整個補助會大概是會有多少這個金額大概大約是多少"},{"start":360.024,"end":363.766,"text":"國道客運整個運價調整一年會增加6億元補貼經費基隆、臺北的尖峰性非常強補貼跟一般國道客運運價的補貼不一樣還會再加成"},{"start":387.375,"end":388.696,"text":"人均公里補助會提供多少?"},{"start":402.785,"end":425.287,"text":"這個部分的話 因為這個它的像基隆台北這邊的話就是說它會比我們5月1日合定的運價大概還會再增加2到6成左右我在這邊就直接把事情講因為局長也知道本溪長期關心我們的國道客運那尤其是不管是平面跟高速公路上面的補助其實是不一樣的"},{"start":425.948,"end":446.513,"text":"那我在這邊強烈建議就是說在人均公里補助的時候如果能的話建議一次補齊如果能夠到5塊台幣5塊的話人均公里補助如果能到台幣5塊的話我認為一次可以反映所有的成本而且跟甚至有關這個通貨膨脹另外一方面來講就是說你這樣子可以讓業者會願意來進來去經營這些辛苦的路線"},{"start":452.014,"end":456.657,"text":"平面道路補貼目前有計畫43塊提高到46塊明年才會進行計畫平面路段部分去年已經核定了什麼時候實施去年5月份已經實施了平面路段現在是45塊85嗎"},{"start":477.431,"end":503.616,"text":"對對現在已經到45塊85差不多OK好那另外一點就是所謂的養量計畫也就是剛剛部長有提到的7條我記得本來是我記得看到資料是6條不過7條客運路線的話我知道一年好像將近是300萬對某條某個路線的這些這些有需要但是會經營困難的路線來去做補助那本席認為說如果只定期為3年的養量計畫基本上這些這幾條路線都不用養量"},{"start":504.316,"end":524.936,"text":"這幾條路線量都很大不管是基隆到台北還是桃園到台北量其實都很大而局長你知道我講哪幾條路線所以說與其是這樣講倒不如說一個補助必要性國道客運的補助變成是一個常態性補助簡稱叫補幣因為這些路線必須要在不然的話這些路線他太多人去搭乘"},{"start":525.276,"end":547.049,"text":"如果這些沒有搭乘這些路線的話我們至少我保守估計至少多1000台車從基隆跟桃園上高速公路來做搭乘那這樣對我們目前的高速公路會有更大的影響那最後一點是我這邊就直接跟幫我們先祥委員講話基隆市目前最大的客運路線叫做1815我想局長很清楚"},{"start":547.969,"end":566.677,"text":"這條路線不是只有在基隆人也包括金山萬里的鄉親主要都是靠這條路線到台北不過呢因為最近1815的量太大已經大到無法負荷不能是說我們常常聽到基隆跟新北的鄉親我們在場說我們能不能說去誰能夠搭車先誰先排隊"},{"start":567.937,"end":595.638,"text":"讓我在這邊見請我們公路局然後請國光客運然後在1815上面直接試開一班直接從1815經過台北市之後直接到萬里金山我知道現在有直接到萬里可是有經過基隆市可是直接越過基隆市試開一班越過基隆市直接到萬里跟金山到法鼓山這個路線看是否能夠有效的把這個那個運量給疏散掉"},{"start":596.918,"end":613.066,"text":"這是我的建議這個部分的話我記得有在討論我確認一下他們是不是什麼時候要實施因為確實就是說他有一些部分的話可能是需要做一些可能挑戰的一個我剛剛提議的這些不管是運量上面的補價也好還是說還是說那個養量計畫的常態性或者1815的事情"},{"start":621.592,"end":636.351,"text":"這些問題都會實質上對我們的國道科運有幫助而國道科運是我們在TPASS裡面在基隆這一環裡面受惠最多的人那我希望說部長也好然後我們局長也好能夠認真把本期的本期剛剛進言納入考量以上"},{"start":636.932,"end":637.852,"text":"我覺得這一點TPASS對民眾是好事可是"},{"start":664.622,"end":664.742,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154617","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154617","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8ff7eca513856a41cca0ece664f026f7b90a5faf2fa6890fcc47a71c4ccfca2305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:30:14 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10:38:50","影片長度":"00:08:36","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:30:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:38:50+08:00","duration":516,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":401,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時30分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：好，請主委。謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：張委員早。"],["張委員雅琳：主委，你今天是坐公務車來立法院嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：你知道公務車有汰換年限嗎？我們知道根據主計總處的規定，公務車使用滿15年或行駛里程數超過25萬公里就可以辦理汰換，主要是考量到安全性這件事情，對不對？現在大家有辦法想像嗎？一台車齡40年的老車就像我們的核三廠，舊時的製造規格有沒有經過嚴謹的耐撞測試？若沒有可能會造成我們使用上、行車上的風險。在沒有確認安全無虞的狀況之下、沒有嚴謹的安全檢查之下，大家敢開這一台車上路嗎？我想大家應該非常清楚，大家不會把自己的生命拿來開玩笑。今天在討論核二、核三要不要解套的法案之前，我們必須非常清楚地確認有沒有核能安全、有沒有符合安全性，這個必須務實地討論。","我們可以看到從鈾礦開採到核電除役，其實都有核廢料，最久持續一萬年。在臺灣我們要處理的是低階核廢料，就是被污染的衣服、工具、建築體，再來就是高階核廢料──燃料棒。我們就先處理這兩個部分，因為這是臺灣必須面對的問題。根據我得到的資料，高階核廢料濕式貯存的狀況，核一、核二現在是滿存的，核三的空間有限；爐心方面，核一還有724束，核二還有1,248束。我想問主委，全世界哪一個國家的核電廠已經用了40年，燃料棒還無法處理，還無法退出？有嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：全世界現在沒有國家是這個樣子，大概……"],["張委員雅琳：完全沒有，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：大概只有臺灣。"],["張委員雅琳：只有臺灣，好。再來，為什麼會造成這樣的問題呢？主委可以幫我們做個說明嗎？為什麼燃料棒一直還在裡面，沒有辦法退出來？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想是地方政府的態度，因為有一些民意的難度……"],["張委員雅琳：民意的抗爭，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是。"],["張委員雅琳：大家都不希望核廢料放在自己家旁邊，大家都有安全的顧慮，對不對？好，至少我得到的資料是核一要到年底才有可能啟用、開工，對不對？核二到使用至少要5年，我這個資料是正確的嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：核二最快大概要再3年，有關年底啟用核一，可能要到明年中。"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解。但是根據我所得到的資料，核三現在是沒有的，而且最終處置場現在也是沒有著落的。我想請教主委，全世界哪一個國家用核電廠40年還沒有乾貯設施？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有，就只有臺灣吧！"],["張委員雅琳：還是只有臺灣，對不對？好，現在要處理核廢料，我們如果要解套的話，就必須解決核廢料的問題，對不對？主委，從安全性的專業看，現在如果沒有辦法處理核廢料，我們可以討論再度啟用或延役這個事情嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：以核二廠來講，完全沒有辦法，因為燃料在爐心，沒辦法拿出來，燃料池已經接近額滿，它就是沒辦法拿出來，我沒辦法放新的燃料下去。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。"],["陳主任委員東陽：核三廠其實有限，大概再幾年的運轉期間。"],["張委員雅琳：現在我們也還沒有乾貯，對不對？都沒有，我們現在修了這個法，能夠解決核廢料最終處置場的問題嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我剛才在報告裡面有underline，不管將來要除役或延役，乾貯都必須興建。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是我們現在的法也沒有處理高階核廢料選址，對不對？我們現在沒有，所以根本沒有解決核廢料的處置問題，這個問題沒有辦法解決的話，現在做任何討論都違反安全的原則。","再來是低階的部分，就是被污染的衣服、工具跟建築體這些低階核廢料。根據「低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施場址設置條例」，經濟部其實曾經建議過兩個候選場址，需要辦地方公投，當時是選在臺東達仁與金門烏坵。我想要瞭解這兩個地方發生了什麼事情，為什麼到現在還是放在蘭嶼的暫時貯存場、三座核電廠內跟核研所內呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：根據這個條例，必須通過地方的公投，兩個縣政府──臺東縣政府跟金門縣政府都是礙難同意，它沒有辦法辦理，到現在都沒辦法辦公投。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。所以就是無解，對不對？連低階的都無解，就是無法處理。中研院在2022年11月發布臺灣淨零科技研發政策建議書，有提到核電最大的阻力就是放射性廢棄物最終處置場，所以這個地方還有非常大的挑戰，我們必須解決。再來，依據核電廠的報告，核三廠東側緊鄰恆春活動斷層，西側外海也有逆衝斷層，所以之前也有考慮到這些地震可能造成的一些問題。我想要請教主委，假設這個地方我們都沒有做任何確認，發生事故的話，會不會影響到住在高雄地區人民的空氣、飲用水等等？這個問題可不可以請你就專業跟我們說明？"],["陳主任委員東陽：地震其實有潛在的威脅，主要是看震源，如果震源接近，比如說山腳斷層、恆春斷層，這個部分我們會相對的比較憂心。核安會對耐震有做一些處置，但是天然災害有不可預測性，我們必須謹慎為之。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。其實聽起來地震可能還是一個存在的隱憂，對不對？它如果不小心真的外洩，對周遭的農產品或食用水都會造成影響。我想要講的一件事情是，我們每一個人都生活在這一塊土地上面，我們的小孩，我們未來的子子孫孫、世世代代都會居住在臺灣這個土地上面，如果我們今天沒有辦法解決核廢料，沒有辦法處理好安全這個問題，我們就要進入修法讓核二跟核三解套的話，等於沒有為安全跟人民的性命把關。國民黨口口聲聲說要為能源政策提出一個解方，但是在整個過程中，如果今天下午就要排定修法……這是一個這麼具有爭議性的法案，我們卻沒有經過任何公聽會討論，在程序上有非常大的問題。國民黨從過去的國會擴權惡法、選罷法到現在，我們都不做任何討論嗎？都沒有要傾聽任何民意嗎？完全不顧人們的性命安全嗎？我們到底有沒有把人民放在心中？我們每一位立委的選票都是從人民手上得來的，每一個人都是帶著人民的寄託、期待和使命來到立法院，我們不該做傷害人民的事情。即便政黨的立場不同，人民的生命都不該成為政治鬥爭的犧牲品。我要建請召委，今天我們不要進入逐條審查，讓我們好好地傾聽民意，回應人民，好好地為人民的生命把關。謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員。","羅廷瑋委員，羅廷瑋委員，羅廷瑋委員。","陳培瑜委員，陳培瑜委員，陳培瑜委員。","吳沛憶委員，吳沛憶委員，吳沛憶委員。","范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳春城","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蘇清泉等\n26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具\n「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應\n器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":4.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.308468750000001,"end":7.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.164718750000002,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":13.125968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.56409375,"end":18.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.84659375,"end":21.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.609718750000003,"end":22.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.622218750000002,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.36846875,"end":92.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.87721875000001,"end":104.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.89221875000001,"end":120.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.73784375000001,"end":127.01534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.01534375000001,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.36971875,"end":127.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.51721875,"end":131.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.85846875000001,"end":133.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.97659375,"end":132.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.02721875,"end":132.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.07346875000002,"end":134.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.20409375,"end":143.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.58221875,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.53909375,"end":166.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.18596875,"end":176.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.59846875000002,"end":175.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.37471875,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.25221875,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.51534375,"end":194.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.88659375,"end":197.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.94534375,"end":198.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.00409375,"end":216.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.00534375,"end":225.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.27846875,"end":233.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.44721875000002,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.26096875000002,"end":229.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.58534375000002,"end":233.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.69909375,"end":239.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.33534375000002,"end":246.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.16534375,"end":248.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.71784375000001,"end":254.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.45971875,"end":253.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.45534375000003,"end":260.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.37409375000004,"end":267.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.59659375,"end":300.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.38909375000003,"end":302.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.43096875000003,"end":309.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.22721875,"end":327.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.28346875,"end":346.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.84596875,"end":366.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.09596875,"end":368.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.47971875,"end":378.52034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.92534375,"end":405.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.43346875000003,"end":394.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.22909375,"end":423.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.40346875,"end":438.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.81471875000005,"end":475.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.10846875000004,"end":476.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.35721875,"end":479.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.47909375,"end":482.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.63909375000003,"end":485.57534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.09846875000005,"end":504.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.47534375000004,"end":514.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.4565937500001,"end":516.96284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.249,"end":13.079,"text":"本席宣布我們在羅廷惠委員質詢完畢之後我們休息五分鐘謝謝謝謝主席我們讓他喝口水好了好我們有請主委謝謝好請主委謝謝張委員早好主委請教你今天是坐公務車來立法院的嗎是的那你知道我們公務車是有一個汰換年限的嗎"},{"start":27.958,"end":45.128,"text":"根據足跡總署的規定,公務車使用滿15年或行駛里程數超過25萬公里就可以辦理汰換,主要也是考量到安全性這件事情。現在大家有辦法想像嗎?一台車零40年的老車,就像我們的河山場,"},{"start":46.189,"end":68.028,"text":"他的舊時的製造規格沒有經過嚴謹的這個耐撞測試就有可能會造成我們的一些使用上面行車上面的風險大家敢讓這樣大家敢在沒有確認安全無疑的狀況之下沒有嚴謹的安全檢查之下大家敢開這台車上路嗎我想這大家應該是非常清楚大家不會把自己的生命拿來當開玩笑"},{"start":68.829,"end":91.65,"text":"所以今天在討論核二、核三的這些要不要解套的法案之前我們必須非常清楚的確認有沒有核能安全有沒有符合安全性這必須做一個務實的討論所以我們可以看到就是說從鈾礦開採到核電廚藝其實都有核廢料最久持續一萬年那在台灣我們會要處理的就是低階核廢料也就是說這些被污染的衣服、工具、建築體"},{"start":92.955,"end":116.531,"text":"那再來就是高階的核廢料燃料棒所以呢我想我們就先來處理這兩個部分因為這是在台灣我們必須面對的問題那在高階核廢料呢現在呢據我得到的資料在失事儲存的狀況核一、核二現在是滿存的那核三呢空間有限那爐心呢核一還有724宿核二還有1248宿"},{"start":120.794,"end":143.569,"text":"我想問主委,全世界哪一個國家核電廠經用了40年,燃料棒還無法處理,還無法退出的?有嗎?全世界現在沒有國家是這個樣子啦。完全沒有對不對?大概只有台灣。只有台灣嘛,好。那再來為什麼呢?為什麼我們會造成這樣子的問題呢?主委可以幫我們做個說明嗎?為什麼一直還在燃料棒裡面沒有辦法退出來勒?"},{"start":144.779,"end":166.528,"text":"我想地方政府的態度啦,那麼有一些民意的難度嘛。民意的抗爭嘛,對不對?大家都不希望核的廢料放在自己家旁邊嘛,大家都有安全的顧慮嘛,對不對?好,所以至少我得到的資料是核一要到年底才有可能啟用開工,對不對?那核二要到使用大概要至少五年,我這個資料是正確的嗎?"},{"start":169.335,"end":192.416,"text":"最快最快核二大概要在三年,那那個年底啟用核一可能要到明年,明年中。好,了解。好,那但是我們核三我所得到的資料是現在是沒有的,而且最終處置廠現在也是沒有著落的。那我想請教主委,全世界哪一個國家用了核電廠40年還沒有這些乾除設置?"},{"start":194.986,"end":216.599,"text":"沒有,就只有台灣吧。也還是只有台灣嘛,對不對?好,所以我們現在如果要去處理這個核廢料,我們如果要解套的話,我們就必須解決核廢料的問題嘛,對不對?所以啊,從你的安全性的專業,我們現在喔,如果沒有辦法處理核廢料,我們可以來討論再度啟用或研議這個事情嗎?"},{"start":218.169,"end":245.949,"text":"以核二廠來講是完全沒有辦法因為燃料在爐心沒辦法拿出來然後這個燃料池已經接近額滿所以它就是沒辦法燃出來我沒辦法放新的燃料下去那核三廠其實有限大概在幾年的運轉的期間但是我們現在也還沒有乾除嘛對不對都沒有嘛所以我們現在基本上現在修了這個法能夠解套解決我們核廢料的問題嗎"},{"start":247.23,"end":265.006,"text":"最終處置場的問題嗎?竿儲必須興建,我剛才在報告裡面有underline竿儲必須興建,不管將來是要儲役或延役,竿儲都必須興建但是我們現在法其實也沒有去處理這個高階和廢料的選址嗎?對不對?"},{"start":268.649,"end":288.202,"text":"我們現在是沒有了嘛,所以我們根本沒有解決核廢料的處置問題嘛,這個問題沒有辦法解決的話,我們現在在做什麼任何的討論,其實都是違反安全的原則再來就是低階的部分,就是在被汙染的衣服跟工具建築體的這些低階的核廢料根據低放射性的廢棄物處置"},{"start":289.904,"end":307.76,"text":"設施管制法第六條條文修正草案 經濟部其實曾經建議過兩個候選場址需要辦地方公投,當時是選在台東達仁與金門烏丘。我想要了解這兩個地方發生了什麼事情,為什麼我們到現在還是放在蘭嶼的暫時儲存場還有三座核電廠內跟核驗所內呢?"},{"start":311.466,"end":327.597,"text":"根據這個條例必須要通過地方的公投,那兩個縣政府,臺東縣政府跟金門縣政府都是愛南同意,就是他沒有辦法辦理,那這個就是到現在沒辦法公投。"},{"start":329.158,"end":345.078,"text":"所以就是無解嘛對不對就算是連第一階段我們都無解嘛就是無法處理啊那其實中研院其實在2022年11月有發布一個臺灣淨零科技研發政策建議書就有提到核電的主力最大主力就是放射性廢棄物的最終組織場"},{"start":347.08,"end":366.298,"text":"所以這個地方其實還有非常大的一個挑戰我們必須要來解決那再來就是一軍核電廠的一個報告核三廠東側緊鄰恆春活動斷層西側外海也有逆沖斷層所以之前也有考慮到這些地震可能會造成的一些問題那我想要請教主委到底這個地方"},{"start":367.259,"end":377.581,"text":"假設我們都沒有做任何確認發生事故的話他會被影響到我們住在高雄地區的人民的一些可能空氣啦飲用水啊等等的問題可不可以請你就轉眼給我們一個說明"},{"start":378.973,"end":404.092,"text":"那個地震其實是有一些潛在的威脅那主要是看震源那如果震源是在接近這個比如三角斷層、橫沿斷層那這個部分我們會相對的比較憂心那麼河岸會對這個耐震有做了一些處置但是天然災害有不可預測性那麼我們必須謹慎為之"},{"start":406.757,"end":423.172,"text":"那我想因為其實這個聽起來就是說如果這個地震可能還是一個存在的隱憂嘛對不對那他如果不小心真的向外洩他其實對我們都要使用的農產品也好或食用水也好可能都會造成影響所以我想要講的一件事情就是說我們每一個人其實都生活在這塊土地上面"},{"start":424.434,"end":450.053,"text":"我們的小孩、我們未來的子子孫孫世世代代都會居住在台灣這個土地上面如果我們今天沒有辦法解決核廢料沒有辦法處理好安全這個問題我們就要進入修法來讓核二跟核三可以進入解套的話那其實我覺得我們對這個我們等於沒有在為安全跟人民的性命來做一個把關齁那國民黨口口聲聲說要這個為能源政策提出一個解方齁"},{"start":450.854,"end":475.299,"text":"但是這整個過程之中今天如果下午就要排定修法這是一個這麼爭議性的一個法案我們沒有經過任何的公聽會的討論那我想這個程序上面我覺得是有非常大的問題例如像我們過去國民黨從在這個國會擴權惡法到選罷法到現在我們都不做任何討論嗎?我們都沒有要傾聽任何的民意嗎?我們完全不顧人們的性命安全嗎?"},{"start":477.423,"end":502.599,"text":"我們到底有沒有把人民放在心中我們每一位立委的選票都是從人民的手上得來的我們每一個人都是帶著人民的寄託跟期待和使命來到了立法院我們不該做傷害人民的事情即便今天政黨立場不同人民的生命都不該成為政治鬥爭的犧牲品所以我要建請我們的總召委"},{"start":504.64,"end":514.218,"text":"在今天我們不要進入逐條審查讓我們好好的請聽民意來回應我們人民來好好的為我們人民的生命做個把關謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154616","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154616","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f866f9a431babd30f4a39103cf15d5982f90a5faf2fa6890fcddeb7cde19618cf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:25:42 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10:37:49","影片長度":"00:12:07","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:25:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:37:49+08:00","duration":727,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":355,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時25分）主席，我請楊總裁。"],["主席：有請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁早安。連續一、三的一次會，我終於有機會問到有關於數位貨幣的議題，我看完你們的整個工作報告，其實我有12個字可以來形容，對於發行數位貨幣，央行的態度就是「明褒暗貶，作法保守，以拖待變」，我為什麼會說你們是明褒暗貶呢？因為你在工作報告裡面有提到央行對於數位貨幣，包括在很多先進國家，目前發展的狀況其實都不如預期，所以對於CBDC你們的態度是比較審慎的，這也凸顯出央行對於到底要不要主動積極推動數位貨幣這件事情，你們的意願度事實上是不高的。那為什麼我說你作法保守呢？因為其實我們仍舊保留銀行作為中介的功能，而且初期我們都還是不計利息，所以包括在以拖待變的部分，為什麼我這麼說？因為我們已經做完民調，但是相關的一些初期的準備，甚至是要到明年我們才準備要辦第一場公聽會。按照道理說，做民調反映的是現在對於推動數位貨幣，民間、產官學界大家的看法到底是什麼，我不知道是不是央行人不夠還是怎麼樣，你們居然要拖到明年才打算要辦第一場公聽會。所以我用這12個字送給總裁，對於推動數位貨幣這件事，總裁，你覺得委屈嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們要推動CBDC，除了要對公眾做一個很明確的溝通以外，我覺得委員做了這樣的一個評論，表示我們也要向委員再做進一步的溝通，那我的……"],["李委員彥秀：你不用跟我溝通，因為我看你到目前所做的事情，我用這12個字送給你，當然……"],["楊總裁金龍：因為我們在報告裡面也沒辦法講得非常的清楚啦，剛剛我也有提到CBDC它主要的功能，其中之一就是cross-border，就是要跨境，如果說我們的CBDC只有在國內做，它的功能不會很大。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我都很清楚，這個如果可以跨國境，很多國家大家都可以一起推動，未來……"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["李委員彥秀：未來都會更好，但是我們自己內部，是不是其他……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們現在也在……"],["李委員彥秀：大家也都在準備當中。"],["楊總裁金龍：有啊。"],["李委員彥秀：那我直接問總裁，我們到底在這一任賴總統任內、卓內閣任內，2028年我們到底有沒有發行CBDC的可能性？到底有沒有可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我就說這個要看國際的趨勢是怎麼樣，假如國際的趨勢都是……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你在等他們，大家都等來等去，最後等於沒有！"],["楊總裁金龍：不是、不是！我就說他發行喔，我剛剛也講了啊，因為CBDC到最後最主要的功能也是要跨境啊，跨境的時候就要兩個去兌換啊，如果說對方沒有的時候，我怎麼兌換？"],["李委員彥秀：那你跟國際之間，這件事情有在對話嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我告訴委員，這個我們在報告裡面也有講，BIS也是很積極的在要如何湊合一個平臺，讓國際之間的CBDC來做一個兌換，是啊，就是這樣子。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，那我再問一個問題，因為在這個過程當中，你指出說銀行要做中介性，這個中介性是階段性的還是永久？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，它還是永久的，它不是階段性喔。"],["李委員彥秀：永久的？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為我們講得很清楚，就是說，雙層……"],["李委員彥秀：所以未來如果有機會規劃的話，也不會是央行直接推，而是一定會透過中介銀行？"],["楊總裁金龍：譬如像說，我後面那個、第二個part會講到一個代幣化，代幣化的意思就是說你一定要存款代幣化這個要先做了以後，央行的一個……"],["李委員彥秀：其他國家一樣也會是雙層式嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：一樣的、一樣的、一樣的，所以我就說，這個並不是說單獨中央銀行來做一做，好，我們就推出來了，但是呢，最重要的，我是覺得CBDC……"],["李委員彥秀：所以我們有一個中介銀行雙層式的推動，最主要是不是擔心銀行體系會有極高，如果沒有透過它……"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，因為你透過那個銀行體系的時候，譬如說像那個wholesale，就是批發式的，你如果沒有商業銀行的代幣化的時候，中央銀行本身，它的運作就比較不會有效率，所以你看看……"],["李委員彥秀：所以是銀行比你的效率跟速度、積極度會更多？"],["楊總裁金龍：它兩個是連在一起的。"],["李委員彥秀：好，總裁，我問最後一個問題，因為我今天準備的議題很多，那為什麼你一開始連公聽會都還沒開，你就開始決定說初期不計息？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊，因為我們先從零售，然後再到wholesale，再到批發，零售的話，我剛剛也在講啊，零售的部分，很簡單的就是現金的數位化，CBDC就是現金的數位化，你看看，CBDC像那個……"],["李委員彥秀：這個會不會降低很多存戶的意願？因為你不計息……"],["楊總裁金龍：不會、不會、不會，因為你看看我們的現金，難道我們的現金有charge利息嗎？有利息嗎？沒有啊！現金就沒有利息啊。"],["李委員彥秀：我們存入銀行就有利息啊。"],["楊總裁金龍：但那是商業銀行貨幣，它的那個存款，它的活期存款，活期存款還是存款，那現金是現金，就是我支付馬上就settle，就是一手交錢一手交貨，所以我們就說現金的數位化，然後不計息，但是我們要計息的這個功能，要它是作為貨幣政策的一個工具，所以當然在一開始的時候，應該是要不計息啊。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我最後問一個問題，我們現在在臺灣登記的公司行號總共有78.1萬家，如果我們發行、推動CBDC的話，我們有沒有思考過，建置大概需要花多少的經費？你有沒有精算過？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們到目前為止還沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我為什麼用那12個字送給你，其實很清楚的嘛，我剛才那12個字其實很清楚的嘛，就是我覺得，一開始你們的態度對於推動CBDC這件事就是明褒暗貶，然後你們目前的作法，比照國際的作法，因為你覺得國際不做，你們也不會做，所以……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，所以我就說，國際……"],["李委員彥秀：如果照這樣看的話，其實我就直接做結論啦，2028，這一屆賴總統任期之前，其實不可能有推動數位貨幣這件事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟各位報告啦，事實上各個國家是主要的中央銀行在推動這個CBDC，到目前為止，大部分都沒有時間表，那為什麼？就是說……"],["李委員彥秀：所以我就直接下結論，總裁，因為我等一下還有金管會的問題要問，所以我就直接下結論，2028年其實不可能推動CBDC，好，謝謝。我時間先暫停一下，主席，我先問一下金管會。主委，我簡短1分鐘，一下子就好了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主委好。我還是要問一下，因為剛才我有關注到這兩天工商協進會吳東亮理事長有帶一群理監事一起去看您喔，其中最關鍵的一個問題，就是在金融的進言裡面有一個重點，就是提到說，幾十年來，我們的金融業占臺灣GDP的比重大概在6%左右，顯然的，這幾年都沒有顯著的成長。相較新加坡這幾十年，其實金融業的成長都在13%上下左右，也都超過臺灣的兩倍，甚至有3家全球百大銀行都是新加坡銀行，但是臺灣卻連一家也沒有。臺灣規模最大的銀行就是我們自己的臺灣銀行，在20年前臺銀的資產規模其實都比新加坡，甚至比星展銀行還要大，但這幾年星展銀行早就讓我們臺銀連人家的車尾燈都看不到了喔！主委，我知道拿我們來跟新加坡相比事實上不公平，因為我們整體的產業包括有製造業、高科技、農工、服務業等等，我們都有，事實上均衡的發展對臺灣最好，但是就金融業而言，我們要想辦法打亞洲盃，甚至我們要想辦法打世界盃。你也提到過我們最大的問題，之前我看到你說我們的人才不足，在金融業人才不足，我就要請問主委，對於我們人才不足，你有沒有什麼想法？要怎麼做解決？因為所有的人都可能跑去高科技產業，想去台積電上班，想去鴻海上班，你怎麼解決？如果做亞洲的資產中心仍舊是你這4年任內的最主要目標，那你怎麼去解決這件事情？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員。剛才提到大家很喜歡用金融產值占GDP的比重，其實跟香港跟新加坡比，這一點可能要稍微再仔細思考一下，因為臺灣是有產業，等於說我們的分母比那個……"],["李委員彥秀：這個我知道！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以說這個指標我們還是希望努力。過去臺灣金融業雖然保持在6%左右，實際上主要是它跟我們的GDP是同步成長，它沒有超額成長。我想人才是全世界競爭的，那……"],["李委員彥秀：你要怎麼解決呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是說這個東西……"],["李委員彥秀：無論你要打亞洲盃、世界盃，你要做亞洲資產管理中心之一，這都是重要的，你要怎麼解決？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然最重要的是工作的條件跟工作的願景，這也是為什麼我們要推動這個政策很重要的目標。"],["李委員彥秀：這需要跨部會的處理喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然、那當然。"],["李委員彥秀：所以主委，你還是要有解決的方案跟方式報到行政院那邊去，讓院長、讓總統知道這件事。我支持你做這件事情……"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：但是這個不是嘴巴喊了4年到最後什麼都沒有，我要提醒主委……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，當然要努力才知道做得到或做不到，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：臺灣銀行的規模不夠大，怎麼樣有機會上百大？怎麼樣跟星展銀行、新加坡銀行競爭？有可能透過金融整併來處理，你的手段跟方法到底是什麼？工具是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實每個國家在壯大金融市場的作法不同，像臺灣，今年我們有邁向22年的金控公司，各位可以看，臺灣幾大金控公司從過去這20來的整個資產規模擴大了大概6到7倍，我想這件事情是一個，我們的方法可能跟新加坡單純走銀行不太一樣，當然我覺得……"],["李委員彥秀：那你的方法是什麼？沒關係，因為時間到了……"],["彭主任委員金隆：第一個，我們持續的強化我們金控……"],["李委員彥秀：你……"],["彭主任委員金隆：……整併……我們還是會持續的推動。"],["李委員彥秀：整併是一個方向？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這是優質的整併，我覺得這是……"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席（王委員世堅代）：李彥秀委員質詢結束，謝謝，謝謝李委員。","再來請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe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"text":"總裁早安!"},{"start":28.71,"end":41.416,"text":"我看完整個你們的工作報告其實我有12個字可以來形容對於發行數位貨幣央行的態度就是明包暗扁、做法保守"},{"start":42.296,"end":69.268,"text":"以拖待變我為什麼會說你們是明包暗扁呢因為你在工作報告裡面有提了央行包括對於數位貨幣包括在很多新進國家其實目前發展的狀況其實都不如預期所以對於CBDC你們的態度是比較審慎的這也凸顯出央行對於到底要不要主動積極推動這個數位貨幣這件事情你們的意願度事實上是不高的"},{"start":69.988,"end":94.777,"text":"為什麼我說你做法保守呢因為其實我們仍舊保留銀行作為中介的功能而且初期我們都還是不計利息所以包括在以拖待變的部分為什麼我這麼說因為我們已經做完民調但是相關的一些初期的準備但是甚至是我們要到明年我們才準備要辦第一場公聽會"},{"start":95.897,"end":120.082,"text":"所以按照道理說做民調反映的是現在對於推動數位貨幣民間產官學界大家的看法到底是什麼但你要拖到我不知道是不是央行人不夠還是怎麼樣我們要拖到明年我們才打算辦第一場公聽會所以我說我用這12個字送給總裁對於推動這個數位貨幣這件事總裁你覺得委屈嗎"},{"start":122.363,"end":149.821,"text":"我想就是說我們要推動CBDC就是說除了除了就是說要對公眾來做比較那個要做一個很明確的一個溝通以外我覺得委員做了這樣的一個做了這樣的一個的評論我也意思認為就是說我們要向委員再做進一步的溝通"},{"start":150.481,"end":175.648,"text":"你不用跟我溝通,因為我看你到目前做的事情我用了12個字送給你,真的是謝謝因為我們在報告裡面我們也沒辦法講得非常的清楚剛剛我也有提到就是說CBDC它的主要的功能其中之一就是Cross Border,就是跨境"},{"start":176.462,"end":179.544,"text":"我們到底在這一任賴總統任內卓內閣任內2028年我們到底有沒有發行CBDC的可行性可能性"},{"start":206.144,"end":220.801,"text":"到底有沒有可能?我在想齁所以我就說這個要看國際的趨勢是怎樣那國際的趨勢假如說國際的趨勢都是是你在等他們?大家都等來等去?不是不是因為不是"},{"start":221.161,"end":246.139,"text":"不是我就說他發言不是因為我剛剛也講了因為他這個CPV到最後的最主要功能也是要跨境啊跨境的時候就要兩個去兌換啊如果說對方沒有的時候我怎麼兌換那你跟國際之間這件事情有在兌換嗎這個BIS我告訴委員這個我們報告裡面也講BIS也是很在積極的要如何撮合一個平台讓"},{"start":253.825,"end":264.995,"text":"總裁,那我再問一個問題因為在這個過程當中你指出說銀行要做中介性這個中介性是階段性的還是永久?沒有,它還是永久的"},{"start":268.029,"end":282.298,"text":"因為我們講的很清楚就是說所以未來如果有機會規劃的話也不會是央行直接推而是一定會透過中介銀行比如像說我後面的那個第二個part會講到一個代幣化"},{"start":284.165,"end":312.627,"text":"貸幣化的意思就是說你一定要存款貸幣化這個要先做了以後央行的一個其他國家會一樣也會是雙城市嗎?一樣的所以我就說這個就是不是說單獨中央銀行來做一做我們就推出來了但是呢最重要的我是覺得我們有一個中介這個銀行雙城市的推動最主要是不是擔心銀行體系會有急高如果沒有透過它"},{"start":314.049,"end":336.151,"text":"因為就是說你透過銀行的體系的時候比如說像那個Wholesale就是說批發式的你如果說沒有商業銀行的代幣化的時候呢商業銀行的本身它的運作就比較不會有效率"},{"start":336.972,"end":338.014,"text":"為什麼你一開始連公聽會都還沒開你就開始決定說初期不計息?"},{"start":353.215,"end":368.086,"text":"對啊,因為我們先從零售,然後再到 wholesale,到批發。那零售的話呢,我剛剛也在講啦,零售的很簡單的就是現金的數位化。"},{"start":368.866,"end":368.986,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":385.456,"end":404.521,"text":"我們存入銀行就沒有利息啊。但是那時候商業銀行貨幣他的那個存款,他的那個合期存款,合期存款還是存款,那現金是現金就是說支付他馬上,我支付馬上就一手交錢一手交貨。"},{"start":406.181,"end":419.559,"text":"所以現金我們就說現金的數位化然後沒有不計息但是我們要計息的這個功能要是它是作為貨幣政策的一個工具"},{"start":420.84,"end":442.885,"text":"所以當然是應該開始的時候是要我最後問一個問題我們現在在台灣登記的公司好像總共有78.1萬家如果我們發行推動CBDC的話我們有沒有思考過大概建制需要花多少的薪費你有沒有精算過到目前為止還沒有"},{"start":444.464,"end":463.724,"text":"所以我為什麼用那12個字送給你?因為其實很清楚的嘛我剛才那12個字其實很清楚的嘛其實就是我覺得一開始你們的態度其實就是對於推動CBDC這件事就是明包暗扁然後你們目前的做法"},{"start":464.842,"end":471.504,"text":"我跟各位報告了就是說事實上各個國家主要的中央銀行在推動這個CBDC呢到目前為止大部分都沒有時間表"},{"start":491.874,"end":492.054,"text":"主席"},{"start":511.465,"end":536.737,"text":"主委好,我還是要問一下因為剛才我有關注到這兩天工商協定會吳東亮理事長有帶一群理監事一起去看您其中最關鍵的一個問題就是在金融的競爭裡面有一個重點就是提到說目前幾十年來我們的這個金融業佔台灣的GDP的比重大概大概6%左右都在顯然的這幾年都沒有顯著的成長"},{"start":537.737,"end":537.917,"text":"新加坡銀行"},{"start":556.559,"end":572.347,"text":"台灣規模最大的銀行就是我們自己的台灣銀行在20年前包括台灣、台銀的資產規模其實都比新加坡甚至比新展銀行還要大但這幾年新展銀行早就把我們台銀早就我們連車尾燈都看不到"},{"start":572.807,"end":600.305,"text":"但是主委我知道拿台灣銀行跟我們跟新加坡相比事實上不公平因為我們整體的產業包括我們有製造業、高科技、農工、服務業等等我們都有事實上均衡的發展對台灣最好但是就金融業而言我們要想辦法打亞洲盃甚至我們要想辦法打世界盃你也提到說我們最大的問題之前我看到你說我們的人才不足在金融業人才不足那我就要請問主委"},{"start":601.766,"end":619.206,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":619.246,"end":644.298,"text":"是謝謝委員剛剛提到大家很喜歡用那個金融產值占GDP的比重其實跟香港跟新加坡比這個這一點可能要稍微再仔細思考一下因為台灣是有產業等於是我們的分母這個我知道對所以說這個指標我們還是希望努力過去台灣金融業雖然保持在6左右實際上主要它跟我們的GDP是同步成長它沒有超額成長我想剛才人才是全世界競爭的那你要怎麼解決呢"},{"start":644.898,"end":645.92,"text":"這是一個跨部會的主流"},{"start":661.38,"end":685.299,"text":"所以主委你還是要有解決的方案跟方式報到行政院那邊去讓院長讓總統知道這件事我支持你做這件事情但是這個不是嘴巴喊了四年到最後什麼都沒有我要提醒主委當然要努力誰知道最後都要做得到臺灣銀行的規模不夠大怎麼樣有機會上百大怎麼樣跟新展銀行新加坡銀行競爭有可能透過金融整併來處理你的手段跟方法到底是什麼工具是什麼"},{"start":686.139,"end":712.08,"text":"其實每個國家在壯大金融市場的做法不同像臺灣今年我們大概是我們有邁向22年的金控公司各位可以看臺灣幾大金控公司從過去這20年來資產規模整個資產規模擴大大概6到7倍我想這件事情是一個我們的方法可能跟新加坡單純走銀行可能不太一樣那你們的方法是什麼沒關係因為時間到了第一個我們持續的強化我們金控"},{"start":718.823,"end":720.087,"text":"金融科技創新發展"}]}},{"id":"154615","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154615","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8d2b42eaf74d4f614a9bb3959728069a090a5faf2fa6890fc6d1a1d9ac38fd4c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:18:45 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10:37:02","影片長度":"00:18:17","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:18:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:37:02+08:00","duration":1097,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":303,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時18分）謝謝主席，麻煩請顧部長。"],["主席：有請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長早安。部長，在這裡要先請教的是因為剛剛黃國昌委員也有揭露，就是說國軍使用中國製太陽能的逆變器、路由器、工業電腦等等，還有徐巧芯委員也揭露了國防部使用中國製的行車紀錄器，那這幾天……因為剛剛聽到黃委員在質詢的時候，顯然可能還有很多的部分沒有調查清楚，或者甚至可能有掩蓋事實的部分，因為這個其實是非常嚴重，這個不只一件，不只太陽能、不只行車紀錄器，還有很多過去其實也一直不斷地發生，我們先來看看，因為行車紀錄器這個早就驗收結案了，國防部當時除了更換以外，好像沒有其他的作法，可是我們常常說得非常大聲、定得好像非常嚴格，不可以使用陸製的產品，當我們嚴格要求的時候，甚至有些是法辦，可是有一些又輕輕地放過，我們不知道它的標準在哪裡，因為如果像公務車輛，尤其是高級將領，都是我們國防部高階的一些長官，他們的車輛都被裝上陸製的行車紀錄器，它到底已經透露什麼樣的訊息流出去，我們不得而知，可是我們看到現在很多案子顯示國防部在採購上沒有認真的查察，或者在評估得標廠商的履約能力、或者廠商以洗產地或第三地貼牌的方式引進陸製產品，好像也沒有杜絕的方法。","我們首先來看看，因為本席對於這些行車紀錄器，當時其實已經有找過國防部相關的人員詢問，那時候查核的結果也都是輕輕地帶過。我們來看一下，本席曾經就總金額兩年大概高達4億的陸軍中型戰術輪車維修案，有提醒伊達諾公司以出具不實原廠授權書的方式向國防部接標案，那時候陸軍還有相關單位都堅持採購的過程合於規定，可是到最後也發現很多都是採購陸製產品。我們先來看看，包括這個行車紀錄器，當時是一家互暢公司得標，結果過沒多久，他媽媽的公司叫義坤金屬，從大陸進了大概1,400具左右的數量進來，到底這個家族做了我們國防部多少生意？","我們現在先看一下他們的紀錄，義坤金屬有34個案子被停權，互暢公司有17個案子被停權，暢威興業有4個案子被停權，再加上這個伊達諾就是之前標到我們輕型戰術輪車的公司，他在後指部……目前二審的官司其實都輸了，可能很快也會被停權。我們來看看這些家族的關係，首先義坤金屬是互暢公司這個兒子的媽媽，然後他的女兒是伊達諾汽車公司，還有另外一個女兒就是暢威興業，這些做了我們國防部非常多相關的標案，我剛剛唸了一堆，總共高達將近60件被停權的案子，他可以有60件被停權還不斷、不斷地拿到我們國防部的案子，這是非常離譜的事情，甚至這個公司還告我說好像誹謗他們的商譽，當然是他輸了，因為我們大概都有提出證據。","我現在要提出來的是，不管是太陽能相關的設備也好，或者像這些分布在陸、海、空各軍種所有的採購，其實都發生這樣的問題，請教部長，我們對於陸製產品這麼大聲疾呼在合約上面定有相關規定，後續要怎麼做？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告……"],["馬委員文君：不然都是假的！"],["顧部長立雄：就太陽能光電的部分，因為他們原來認為是租屋、租地……"],["馬委員文君：部長，沒關係，因為黃國昌委員在關心太陽能的部分，我剛剛說其實有非常多，包括很多被停權的案子，很多都是因為它可能用了這些陸製製品，我們未來應該要怎麼做？因為有很多案例，包括現在的無人機，還有很多的國防武器裝備，甚至未來我們在DIU上面可以讓國內外企業參與我們的一些國防產業發展，這就更可能會有類似的情形不斷發生，我們有什麼樣的作為？我只要知道部長有什麼樣的作為。"],["顧部長立雄：我個人的看法，以我過去也是法律相關背景，我認為我們應該要在驗收程序上面加強策進，這個要結合政風單位，也要結合法律單位，一起進行相關的驗收程序，從採購室開始就要進行採購的……"],["馬委員文君：部長，這部分其實從過去到現在都有，當我們提出質疑的時候，這些單位也都很認真地保證應該都沒有問題，可是最後發現就是有問題，當我們凍結預算的時候、我們事先預警的時候，還是被強勢通過各項的預算。剛剛王召委也特別提到，很高興他發現到這個問題，也就是我們很多案子是減價驗收，當你做的品質不夠好，或者品質有瑕疵、或者有一些違規，甚至不符合我們軍種作戰需求的時候，我們都是減價驗收，它的樣態當然非常多，我們只想知道可以怎麼做。部長請在這裡告訴我們，現在不斷、不斷地發生，以你在法律專業的背景情況之下，未來怎麼樣防止？剛剛說的那些本來就有了，在我們的程序、體制上都有，一旦發現以後，我們怎麼做？因為你就是換掉而已啊！目前是換掉而已，不然就停權，停權後他又換一家公司，還是繼續標啊！"],["顧部長立雄：如果停權之後，他換了一家公司，以我個人的立場，我認為我們應該要做一個詳細的查核，如果他有這樣的一個狀況。"],["馬委員文君：部長，顯然沒辦法查核，因為我剛剛唸了幾十件、十幾件這樣被停權的部分，簡單來說，因為時間的關係，部長可不可以在合約上面定的清清楚楚，包括罰則還有應該接受什麼條件的懲罰？有沒有辦法在合約上面訂定清楚？"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，我是國防採購室主任，謝謝委員指導，我這邊針對剛剛委員所問的，摘要地跟委員報告。有關於廠商的部分，不管他們之間的關係是怎麼樣，我們依據相關的規定，廠商的基本資格包括設定登記的證明，還有納稅證明，這都是標準的規定，我們去審認，他們之間的關係當然只是一個……"],["馬委員文君：好，如果要講到這樣，我們就來講重點，我們一直只希望要個結果，可是你一直針對過去的案子，如果你還要再擦脂抹粉，我們現在來看。今天這個家族他們成立什麼樣的公司，我們也沒有意見，他可以設立很多樣的相關公司，都沒有問題，可是他的公司地址跟工廠地址都一樣，都在這個地方，甚至上次要修我們車子的時候，在那個二樓，請告訴我，怎麼樣在二樓修我們國軍的輪車？還有他媽媽在大陸進口以後，我們用了經濟部標準檢驗局合格的檢驗證明，就等同它的產地證明，我們是這樣收受的，我今天只是要知道在不斷、不斷發生的情況之下，你應該要有什麼樣的作為？因為顯然是沒有用的，或者甚至有人在包庇，我只想要請教部長，未來這部分要如何杜絕？如果你沒有辦法杜絕，甚至要用最新的DIU或者什麼樣更多的方式，你只是開愈多的窗口、愈多可能的漏洞，讓大家進到我們的國防產業，有沒有一個基本的防杜作為？就法律面來看。"],["顧部長立雄：就法律面來看，我想以剛剛委員所指教的，譬如這些新成立的公司，它的地址是一樣的，我認為這就很可疑，就這個部分的話，我們應該在查核上面就要審慎，甚至讓它不符合資格標，我想這部分應該要來做。所以從採購合約規範一開始，一直到最後驗收的程序，我想我們都有很多要以委員的指教來檢討精進的空間，我會好好地逐一檢視，我想我們的法律事務司應該要承擔這樣的一個責任。"],["馬委員文君：就未來要怎麼樣防堵這個部分，請給我們詳細的書面報告，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["馬委員文君：另外，因為時間的關係，今天我們主要討論的是DIU的部分，我想請教，因為我們提到未來這個小組要優先導入無人機跟人工智慧，現在也剛剛成立，可能我們還不是很明確它的整體作為，可是至少我們知道它要優先導入無人機跟人工智慧，現在我想要請教，民間的創新科技可以提升防衛的力量，是否可以舉例一下？除了AI很籠統的說法以外，有沒有什麼比較具體的作法？比如說，我們覺得現在的民間……因為我們現在已經編了五、六百億的預算，可能要採購無人機，我不知道這個預算金額是不是正確……"],["顧部長立雄：那個是軍用商規的部分……"],["馬委員文君：就至少五、六百億嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：嗯。"],["馬委員文君：其實我們跟美方採購的也高達一百多億，都是非常高的金額，目前軍用商規有沒有什麼特別突出的？比中科院還要好？因為中科院研發了這麼長的時間，經費至少也耗費了一百多億以上，可是民間有什麼樣的量能還有新興科技的創新技術比這些還要好，是不是可以舉例一下？因為你們要花那麼多錢啊！現在已經要引進了，也認為這個很好，是不是可以舉例，在無人機上面，民間科技有什麼樣的創新作法比我們現在還要好？"],["顧部長立雄：就分工來講，因為現在中科院比較focus在三、四級的無人機上，日後要結合我們作戰需求相關所需的這些，特別是偵打一體的無人載具，我想我們已經有相當的一些……"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為時間的關係……"],["顧部長立雄：但是我覺得不適合公開的去講哪些……"],["馬委員文君：無人機的相關技術都非常公開透明，全世界都在發展無人機，它只是不斷的在精進，我們之前看到有很多應用在最近的俄烏戰爭上面，它有一個成功的效果，當然後續還是發現它可能在GPS被影響、干擾以後沒有辦法很精準地做到位。","我現在只是要請教，剛剛一直講這個是創新科技，你們要讓民間進來，而中科院其實已經做出劍翔，它是有監偵跟攻擊，騰雲也是攻擊，還有銳鳶，之前還有很多像是紅雀，其實我們有非常多包括偵監和攻擊的，並不是沒有，可是現在民間的創新技術到底是什麼？可以比我們原來這些更好？應該要具體的說一下。"],["顧部長立雄：我們運用的無人機，如同您剛剛講的騰雲，它是高高空的無人機，至於銳鳶則是海軍在用的，紅雀三現在還沒有經過測評，我想相關的這些，包括剛剛提到我們買的300或600的彈簧刀，或者是我們能夠發展出更遠程的偵打一體無人機，還是水面的無人艦艇，甚至有可能是水下無人載具等等這些相關技術，在整個運用無人機相關的AI技術，包括影像識別、目標定位、防撞避碰、自動航路規劃、火力分配等等，這都有各種……"],["馬委員文君：部長……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我最後只講一句話，從烏克蘭戰爭的經驗告訴我們，無人機的需求是非常非常大的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們認同，我們很早之前就非常關注無人機，也認為這是必要的發展，我現在只是想知道，我們編了那麼多的預算，如果我們連五、六百億軍用商規，包括跟美軍購得的加起來可能高達八百億以上，我們剛剛念到的這些，針對剛剛部長說的功能、性能，中科院已經花了非常高額的預算研發出相關的成果，中科院花這麼多都還不如人意，民間的力量或者他們的創新科技都還可以高於中科院？剛剛林林總總念的這些，我們想知道民間到底是什麼樣的創新科技，可以比中科院花了這麼多錢研發出來的還要好？因為時間的關係，麻煩再給我們一些相關的資料，這部分我們可能還會再持續討論。","部長，無人機的預算被凍結，如果今天我們有這些創新的想法，DIU也要成立了，目前我們採購的這些無人機可能都比較過時，可能它也不符我們的需求，現在我們各軍種要買的這些預算是不是也應該要暫停？讓它好的進來，你們有AI的技術引進或者是其他，因為民間顯然已經有了，你們才會認為它比中科院的還要好嘛！是不是可以……"],["顧部長立雄：我們需要扶植民間自我產能的提升，我覺得這個案還是有效，還是請委員都能夠支持，如果我們不提升他們的……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我不是不支持民間的量能，而是現在已經有一些創新的科技，如果它可以直接加進來，我們就不會先買過時的，以後還要再買新的，這樣對我們來說，在預算有限的情況之下，其實我們只要讓中科院或者相關的民間企業可以清楚的說明我們無人機的優勢到底在哪裡，甚至比俄烏戰爭有實戰經驗的還要好，我們去買這些不是更好嗎？這部分是我在這裡特別提出來的，部長是不是可以考量？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：我們支持所有無人機採購的相關預算，既然你們有新的科技創新，包括剛剛的AI以人為本，會控制它不去傷害人……這不是我們能控制的，我們並不曉得現在的科技或未來的科技會怎麼延伸，可是就現在務實面來看，我們就講現在就好了，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["馬委員文君：請部長再提供相關的資訊，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我還要一個資料，我們上一次有提到快奇專案，我要的不是你們採購的過程，而是關於那個無人艇，為什麼人家可以用兩百萬、六百萬做出來，我們卻需要六千萬？這個部分希望可以清楚的給我們所有委員會，甚至我們所有的委員，讓我們可以知道詳細的部分，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。","接下來請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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要在查核上面就要能夠審慎那甚至是讓他不符合資格標"},{"start":604.844,"end":617.093,"text":"所以我想這個部分應該要來做所以從採購的合約規範一開始一直到最後驗收的程序我想我們都有很多要來檢討以委員的指教來檢討精進的空間我會來好好地來同意檢視我想我們的法律事務司應該要承擔這樣子的一個責任好 那就這個部分未來要怎麼樣防堵這個部分請給我們詳細的書面報告好不好好"},{"start":630.442,"end":636.286,"text":"另外因為時間的關係今天我們主要討論的就是我們的DIU的部分我想請教因為我們有提到說未來這個小組優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧因為現在也剛剛要成立它可能我們還不是很明確它的整體的作為可是至少我們知道說它優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧那現在"},{"start":655.977,"end":671.965,"text":"我想要請教民間的創新科技它可以提升防衛的力量是否可以舉例一下除了AI很籠統的說法以外有沒有什麼比較具體的說法的做法比如說現在的民間我們覺得因為我們現在已經要編了五六百億的預算可能要採購無人機我不知道預算這個金額是不是正確啦至少那個是軍用商規的部分"},{"start":681.409,"end":681.549,"text":"中科院研發了"},{"start":698.93,"end":725.735,"text":"這麼長的時間至少經費也耗費了一百多億以上可是民間有什麼樣的量能還有新興的科技的這個技術創新的技術比這些還要好是不是可以舉例一下因為你要花那麼多錢啊因為你現在已經要引進了也認為說這個很好是不是可以舉例說在無人機上面民間的科技有什麼樣的一個創新的做法比我們現在還要好"},{"start":728.411,"end":743.614,"text":"現在就分工來講的話因為現在中科院比較focus是在那個三四級的這個無人機的這個上面那我想日後要"},{"start":744.736,"end":758.751,"text":"結合相關我們的作戰需求所相關的需要的這些特別是增大一體的那無人載具我想我們已經有相當的一些但是我覺得不適合"},{"start":761.894,"end":766.918,"text":"公開的去講說哪些因為無人機的相關技術都非常的公開透明因為全世界都在發展無人機它只是不斷的進進我們看到的它有很多就是可能在"},{"start":777.985,"end":795.675,"text":"之前尤其是最近的二無戰爭上面他有一個成功的一個效果當然他後續還是被發現可能GPS可能被影響以後他沒有被干擾以後他沒有辦法很精準的做到位那我現在只是要請教的因為剛剛一直講說這個是創新科技嘛那你要讓民間進來所以"},{"start":800.956,"end":804.3,"text":"中科院其實有已經做出建想他是有有那個監偵跟攻擊喔騰雲也是攻擊然後還有瑞淵我們之前還有很多還有什麼紅雀其實我們有非常多他包括針尖"},{"start":819.4,"end":822.142,"text":"我想他這個我們運用這個無人機的這個部分您剛剛講的騰雲這是高高空的這一個無人機那至於這些類言的是海軍在用的那"},{"start":848.004,"end":866.545,"text":"紅卷山現在還沒經過測評那我想這些相關的這些包括剛剛講的您提到我們買的這個300或600的這些彈簧道或者是我們能夠發展出更遠程的這些整哪一體的無人機或者是我們水面的這些無人艦艇"},{"start":868.067,"end":887.487,"text":"那甚至有可能的話水下無人載具等等這些相關的這些技術在整個運用無人機的這相關的AI技術來包括影像識別目標定位防撞避撞防撞避碰然後自動航路規劃火力分配等等這個都有各種跟委員報告我只最後講一句話從烏克蘭戰爭的經驗告訴我們"},{"start":890.646,"end":902.034,"text":"無人機的需求是非常非常大的部長我們認同因為很早之前我們也非常關注無人機也認為這是必要的發展我現在只是想知道說我們編了那麼多的預算如果連我們五六百億軍用商規還包括跟美軍購的這樣加起來其實可能高達八百億以上"},{"start":911.101,"end":914.564,"text":"現在我們剛剛念到的這些剛剛部長你說的這些功能、性能其實中科院就是已經花了非常高額的預算去研發出來的成果那中科院花這麼多都還不如人意民間的力量或者他的創新科技都還可以"},{"start":930.658,"end":938.02,"text":"高於中科院我們想知道的是民間到底是什麼樣的創新科技可以比中科院花了這麼多錢研發出來剛剛林林總總念的這些比他還要好這個部分因為時間的關係麻煩再給我們一些相關的資料這個部分我們持續可能還會再討論因為"},{"start":950.743,"end":977.222,"text":"部長無人機的預算被凍結如果今天我們有這些創新的想法DIU也要成立了那目前我們採購的這些無人機可能都是比較過時甚至可能他可能不符我們的需求這些我們是不是現在各軍種要買的這些預算是不是也應該要暫停讓他好的進來你有AI的技術引進或者其他因為民間顯然已經有了你才會認為說會比我們中科院的還要好嗎"},{"start":979.744,"end":982.927,"text":"我覺得我們需要扶植民間自我產能的這個提升我覺得這個案還是有效還是請委員多能夠支持因為我們如果不提升他們的這個部長我不是說不支持民間的這樣的一個量能"},{"start":997.139,"end":997.179,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":1012.614,"end":1031.326,"text":"我們中科院或者相關的民間企業可以清楚的說明我們的無人機到底優勢在哪裡甚至比二無戰爭實際有實戰經驗的還要好的情況之下我們去買這些不是更好嗎這部分是我們在這裡特別提出來是不是部長可以去考量"},{"start":1032.086,"end":1032.126,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":1055.891,"end":1056.371,"text":"請部長再提供相關的資訊"},{"start":1085.971,"end":1086.573,"text":"馬文君"}]}},{"id":"154614","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154614","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8b60ed47ac0dd09ff2652beeb573fd6de90a5faf2fa6890fc90b6e40bd5604b075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:23:56 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那就請教次長昨天我在總執行的時候我有肯定我們政部長說上任後這個封箱7年鄭文燦所涉及的弊案檢方終於有行動了那但是我還是要請教次長為何發生在2017年的這個土地開發弊案拖了7年才辦"},{"start":54.068,"end":71.718,"text":"跟委員報告,他這個案子如果,我也是去報宅啦,他其實是7年來他有一些偵辦的歷程,不是說7年後才突然偵辦。他是一個偵辦的歷程。好,來,我來看看齁,你說的齁,來看陶議員,你知道陶議員的地方法院第一次裁定鄭文燦交保,你知道他怎麼講嗎?"},{"start":73.544,"end":88.441,"text":"他說本案案發時間距今已長達7年相關監聽譯文、收證照片已詳如卷內所示,任務羈押之必要所以換言之他覺得證據很夠了啦也不用再去羈押他去取證了啦"},{"start":89.847,"end":105.414,"text":"結果這個案子在法院認為這樣已經很夠的案子就在法務部就在檢察官那邊躺了7年我想請問你監聽議員收證照片早就有了那過去7年有沒有人在包庇押案"},{"start":107.318,"end":120.78,"text":"各位報告,這個個案上我沒有辦法回答這個問題,個案上的問題對,你當然不知道啊對,我不知道啊外界有很多懷疑是不是吃案包庇押案嘛這你應該有看到報導嘛,外界有懷疑,不是你啦,我講外界啦"},{"start":121.557,"end":143.803,"text":"外界有在質疑,但是也請委員給外界要相信賈寬的偵辦哥我相信你,我也相信鄭明謙,因為終於他辦了但是你叫外界要相信,抱歉我沒辦法相信嘛我舉幾個例子跟你就教一下,我怎麼相信啊你知道這個鄭文燦的這個所謂的土地弊案發生在哪一任部長的任內,被發現了哪一任,這應該答得出來吧"},{"start":149.315,"end":165.827,"text":"因為七年前他可能有橫跨部長交接的時間哪個部長嘛講出來嘛客觀上他我們前任部長是蔡部長再前任是邱部長就邱泰山嘛邱泰山之前是當鄭文燦的什麼職位副市長啊那邱泰山你知道他這個從政最光輝亮眼的司法政績是什麼可以告訴大家"},{"start":178.715,"end":194.541,"text":"你知道他政績是什麼嗎他最有功勳對國家貢獻最大一件事情就是他跟這個陶檢的檢察長對不對彭坤業去施壓檢察官這是被認證的他因此下台還記不記得這件事情他那時候那個國安會執委因此下台"},{"start":207.712,"end":231.526,"text":"後來檢察院彈劾是不成立的不成立啊 不成立他下台民進黨認證然後馬上高山這個陸委會主委我要告訴我們次長不是說今天我不信任檢察官 我們很信任檢察官啊就像我們信任我們的吳宗憲、昭緯一樣檢察官很辛苦啊"},{"start":232.639,"end":251.667,"text":"可是今天就有一些把手伸進檢查體系裡面去押案去施案的一些行政首長啊今天為什麼今天會質疑說7年前的案子拖到現在當時部長邱泰山你信不信任他你相信他嗎"},{"start":254.209,"end":281.687,"text":"我幫你回答你不能回答啦你不是他啦對不對至少我不相信他我在講第二件事情為什麼對檢察官這個很辛苦覺得他承受很大的壓力你知道民進黨執政還有一個非常有名的施壓檢察官的例子這施壓者叫做高永成你總聽過吧目前的檢察委員對不對這位監委阿的奉公委員最大的一宗就是為了幫段宜康解套"},{"start":282.918,"end":299.352,"text":"去恐嚇承辦案件的檢察官這是有事實的喔議員都出來喔你覺得這樣的一個監委他去施壓檢察官你覺得檢察官辛苦不辛苦檢察官辛苦不辛苦檢察官在每個領域上工作上都很辛苦都很辛苦還遇到這一種"},{"start":310.267,"end":315.889,"text":"遇到這種監察委員還連任監委嘞所以今天我為什麼肯定鄭明謙我肯定賴清德阿壓了七年的案子終於辦了阿封了七年終於辦了阿一半就辦大阿哥鄭文燦阿很好阿"},{"start":331.786,"end":349.05,"text":"但是抱歉啊,你們在辦下去的狀況,我也稍微有點擔心啦,你擔不擔心辦案的狀況?擔不擔心?呃,不會,我相信我們的檢察官。你很相信,我相信檢察官,但是我很擔心,很擔心幾件事情,第一個,現在檢察官有沒有壓力,請問?陳辦檢察官有沒有壓力?"},{"start":354.13,"end":375.78,"text":"我告訴你他現在壓力很大我已經看到很多的一些綠媒在開始修理他了有沒有看到檢討他私生活開始形容他是一個多麼糟糕的人一貫的方式啊今天敢站出來辦案的檢察官就用媒體修理他啦次長你願不願意當我們成案檢察官的後盾"},{"start":377.709,"end":399.837,"text":"我覺得任何首長任何的行政部門的這個如果是法務部的話他當然都會是一個紀念檢察官的最後的一個支持的後盾對啊謝謝你啊願意當檢察官的後盾第二個你知道過去縣市首長被辦這個弊案齁疑似弊案涉入一些案件齁很多嘛對不對"},{"start":400.968,"end":426.967,"text":"在野黨的監事首長包括高鴻安、楊文科還有包括林志廟我看到檢察官辦案很認真你知道怎麼個認真法兵分18路、兵分28路、兵分38路逢小出級全部搜索查光光、扣光光你現在監聽跟跟監所產行的證據跟搜索能夠收到、扣到的直接物證不太一樣吧對不對哪一個證據強度強"},{"start":430.182,"end":430.985,"text":"哪一個證據強度強請問吧 次長 這你應該答得出來吧"},{"start":437.433,"end":462.258,"text":"各位報告那如果形式上觀察當然我意思是說強制力對物的強制力當然是你指的當然是指搜索的可能性搜到證據的可能性比較高一點只是我們但是那個個案還是不一樣當然我知道個案但一般來說就是物的強制力搜索很強阿為什麼今天兵分十八路搜證阿所以我很擔心你們後續辦案不是沒有原因的請問鄭文燦搜索了沒有搜索了沒有"},{"start":466.641,"end":491.881,"text":"七年如如不動該滅的政也滅了 該篡的共也篡了啦七年漫漫長路啦 連壓都不能壓這個叫做民進黨涉案縣市首長的特權列車啊我為什麼擔心啊 我怕就算將來辦案下去你照你現在的偵辦的一個偵查的強度跟其他辦在野黨的偵查強度明顯不同嘛"},{"start":493.442,"end":513.747,"text":"你現在開了第一槍我很怕一件事情我跟次長講我很擔心今天這一槍打在鄭文燦身上你本來是避暗的一槍避命以為啦結果拿的是嗶嗶槍啦打他手痛一下警告他一下說不要再想大衛了變成政治鬥爭我不希望啦你也不希望吧"},{"start":515.236,"end":517.497,"text":"所以今天為什麼我昨天總質詢就肯定部長原因是什麼"},{"start":539.878,"end":552.895,"text":"這案子當然不是部長辦的嘛 對不對也不是次長你辦的嘛可是至少你們做了一件事情嘛你們沒有押案嘛你們押案吧 對不對你們沒有押案嘛當然嘛你光這件事情就民俗珍貴啦"},{"start":554.482,"end":579.746,"text":"但是壓力要頂住要能夠當檢察官的後盾要頂住這個壓力這才是今天我非常關切的一個問題所以要請今天我們的檢察機關真的好好加油一下然後能夠抗住這個政治的壓力也希望我們的部長跟次長能夠擔當我們的檢察官的後盾現在檢察官已經開始被清算了抱歉我看到有些報導開始對他補力但是拜託"},{"start":584.175,"end":584.195,"text":"羅委員"}]}},{"id":"154613","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154613","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8b15629532e3908ed2652beeb573fd6de90a5faf2fa6890fc1a472770252e28fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:12:38 - 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邀請我們內政部我們董次長麻煩次長好 委員次長好 幾個問題來請教啦是 不敢這個最近這個整個太平洋高壓這個是太強了臺灣就是像一顆番薯一樣我看我們沒有吹冷氣是真的是不行的啦那天氣熱在室內自然就會去開冷氣"},{"start":32.727,"end":46.716,"text":"我從2022年的時候我多次針對這整個租屋主的電費的部分來向我們內政部還有台電經濟部提出質詢後來我們內政部也在整個租屋的租賃定型化契約應記載跟不得記載事項裡面有去訂定每度的電費"},{"start":50.879,"end":53.322,"text":"臺電當月電價最高的極具的每度金額但是我們看到很多房東他現在還是會用不超過夏季電費的金額一度比如說五塊、六塊去超收變相在賺這個價差"},{"start":72.361,"end":84.691,"text":"後來我要求台電就在這個帳單上加注同期的平均金額我也一直在呼籲我們內政部就在這個定型化契約裡面應該去記載來保障租客的一個繳交實際的電費的一個權益那上個月底的時候我有看到內政部宣布說租屋電費到7月中旬要上路這個部要上路那新制的方向是怎麼樣"},{"start":97.462,"end":102.727,"text":"有關於電費的部分,我們在新的定型化企業裡面經過行政院審核通過之後,我們已經在禮拜一7月8號對外公告"},{"start":119.804,"end":139.87,"text":"公告過程裏面如果大家沒有任何的疑議我們會在7月15號上路在上路的同時我們就會把相關的懶人包還有新型的定型化契約都放進去新型定型化契約裏面就如同委員所垂詢的我們會把電價的需求狀況我們就明定在裏面那房客跟房東在訂約的時候他的"},{"start":140.31,"end":143.792,"text":"所以我們預計什麼時候上路?我們7月15號就會上路7月就一定上路?對還有請我們國庫署今天副署長也有到場"},{"start":165.796,"end":191.014,"text":"我另外一個問題我就延續剛剛其他委員的一個問題來請教兩位就是說我們現在政府整個清安的一個政策他其實就是想讓政府的美意就讓年輕人可以買得起房子那現在我們公股銀行總共撥貸40萬2000戶我請教兩位小不曉得大約知道這個金額有多大大約"},{"start":196.929,"end":215.941,"text":"報告委員您指的是目前為止累積波待的金額嗎?對就是如果是40多萬戶的話波待的金額大概是1.9兆1.9兆這個其實是一個很高的數字1.9兆其實我相信最主要這樣的一個目的就是政府要讓年輕人買得起房子那從去年2023年房屋買賣移轉的動數30.6萬棟是4年來的算新低"},{"start":227.109,"end":252.308,"text":"但這個數字裡面其實是暗藏玄機從2023年的下半年移轉比較起來跟比上半年增加的約21%那為什麼會在下半年增加兩位就很清楚了嘛就是我們政府推出了這個慶安的一個政策他同時在今年的五月份的房屋交易動數達到兩萬六千多棟是近十年的新高"},{"start":253.749,"end":258.694,"text":"我看財政部的一個最新的一個統計就是新清安的單月撥貸的一個戶數就高達了將近9000戶就8000多戶那平均每戶撥貸金額來到768萬元那剛剛副署長談到的就是說公庫銀行總共撥貸的40萬2000戶裡面撥貸的總金額來到1.8兆"},{"start":276.573,"end":281.694,"text":"那同時今年5月交易動勢這2萬6千棟10年來的新高那數據也呈現得很明顯就整個新安的一個政策新清安的一個政策讓房屋市場交易熱絡了起來熱絡不是壞事喔熱絡本身倒不反對喔但是對這些新清安政策的人似乎大家都是以自助為目的"},{"start":303.521,"end":308.268,"text":"那這也其實也是證明了就是大家買房子也變得容易了可是我必須要提出來就是說假設"},{"start":311.328,"end":335.311,"text":"我一個中古屋啊我現在開價兩千萬那如果我投資客要買的話我會向下去斡旋嘛一定會是這樣子嘛我有一定的一個利潤嘛那可是呢最高可能我認為說我這個投資客我認為一千九我至少要賺個一百萬那超過了他就嫌這個比例就太少了就不買了但同樣如果是兩千萬年輕人我們有新清安政策出來以後"},{"start":336.277,"end":337.638,"text":"對於整個政策影響整體的方式跟內政部這邊你們有什麼看法?"},{"start":366.228,"end":381.295,"text":"謝謝委員．瑞雄那跟委員報告有關於房市的問題那麼本部的立場一向是就是說我們要提供足夠的住宅讓那個年輕人能夠買得起所以在那個會議裡面我們就是提出說相關的貸款"},{"start":382.295,"end":382.515,"text":"我相信"},{"start":410.783,"end":425.368,"text":"大多數人認為這個政策是對的啦政策當然就是對的啦但是我們也很擔心就是說因為這個新金安的政策讓這個漲幅趨緩了黃式又去節節的一個飆高我們擔心的是這個尤其這個銀行不是在發錢欸"},{"start":426.508,"end":437.695,"text":"本金要還對不對所以我的意思就是說我希望我們內政部跟財政部要特別去留意尤其是在利用這個新青安的一個轉租或人頭戶的一個違規借款戶你到了7月5號你盤點出來超風險的案件大約是1000戶那你這1000戶裡面主要是高機率是人頭戶的借款戶或者以及確定違規的借款戶我說想進一步來請教副署長就是說"},{"start":452.043,"end":474.422,"text":"有什麼樣的態樣或是行為才會被列入這疑似違規或者人頭戶?是,謝謝委員垂詢那我這邊報告就是說新青安施行到現在那就誠如剛剛委員提到了其實青安的目的是要協助無自由住宅的民眾能夠購屋成家"},{"start":475.103,"end":493.416,"text":"那這個其實是利益很良善的一個政策那至於就是說最近可能大家會在討論說有可能有一些是人頭戶或者是有一些是申請了清安之後再去轉租的那這個部分我們現在已經也著手在處理了就是說我們會請各個函庫在受理的時候除了要"},{"start":496.698,"end":501.863,"text":"若實他的這個貸錢的徵審包含這個借款人他的相關的收支的一個狀況都是在貸錢的時候必須要納入一個核貸時候的一個考量另外呢就是要強化貸後的這個管理包含貸後的一個相關資金用途的稽查"},{"start":517.458,"end":542.394,"text":"那再來就是說我們從6月27號之後有要求就是必須要做一個自住的一個切結書那另外就是有現代一次的這樣子的一個方式那這些努力其實都是希望就是回到這個政策的初衷就是讓這個沒有自有住宅的民眾能夠自住然後來申請這樣子的貸款"},{"start":544.695,"end":566.521,"text":"我最主要是要提出提醒啦你像比如說啊你說屬於比較高的一個風險的你說第三人去繳交這個房貸其中比如說第三人有可能就是父母啊有可能是兄弟姊妹啊那這一些可能提出證明都很容易就不會被列入下一階段的高風險的案件但是有一部分高風險提出的解釋認為說我的兄弟姊妹幫忙的啦或是我的未婚啦"},{"start":570.262,"end":574.406,"text":"我正在交往 大家作為要來納粗的 什麼理由可能都會有但這理由可能是真 也有可能是假 這個你們也必須要特別去留意那這些使用人頭戶人他也不是笨蛋啦 比如說我同一個銀行裡面我是第三年繳交的多個借款戶的一個房貸 你這個比較容易發現了吧"},{"start":590.942,"end":605.708,"text":"可是呢他如果是多銀行我分別在不同的銀行你們各銀行之間的一個個資到底有沒有互通那這類案件我請問那個次長或者是副署長這些案件你們怎麼去處理"},{"start":607.637,"end":607.817,"text":"這個政策齁"},{"start":635.399,"end":635.419,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":666.459,"end":666.479,"text":"好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154612","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154612","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8766fb3ac594fb7e1ca0ece664f026f7b90a5faf2fa6890fcf07c02915393e3b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:21:13 - 10:30:04","影片長度":"00:08:51","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:21:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:30:04+08:00","duration":531,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":377,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時21分）謝謝主席，有請主委還有次長。"],["主席：好，主委跟經濟部次長，謝謝！"],["陳主任委員東陽：郭委員早！"],["郭委員昱晴：兩位早安！我想今天在這邊發言，其實我真的不建議今天進入法條的審查，就像剛剛我們諸多的委員提到，沒有任何的社會共識，在昨天其實還有很多的專家、學者紛紛去講，就算今天藍、白政黨用人數的多數通過了，就是我知道法規說不行，我要把它改到行，這像巨嬰耶！這像耍賴耶！所以其實沒有取得任何的社會共識之前，我覺得核能的安全，「安全」兩個字不是只有我們這一代，我們還有下一代，這個是最重要的一個課題。","好，我想今天很多人可能會在講說什麼能源錯誤、跳電、然後停電啦！我想問一下兩位，尤其是主委，安全很重要，但是很多人在講說，現在是不是真的有所謂的跳電、停電就是等於缺電嗎？跳電、停電等於缺電嗎？這個部分是不是請你們來做一個說明？"],["連次長錦漳：我說明一下跳電、停電，剛才有講不是缺電喔！因為它現在都是單獨的一個設施或一棟大樓去停電，這有可能是本身的一個設施或是外面有些設備的問題；如果是缺電的話，應該是這一整個區域都會停電所以說這兩個是不同……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以跳電、停電不等於臺灣缺電，這個是真的拜託大家一定要先有的一個觀念，所以我在這邊就先糾正這個觀念。","再來，我們談到所謂的能源政策，我覺得一定要更理性，再生能源的占比其實從2023年相較於2016年，我們成長了將近8倍，那麼今年我們的占比一定會超過10%，到了2025年會達到15%，甚至於2026年10月我們將到達20%的一個目標，所以其實我們的供電絕對會更加地穩定，這是毋庸置疑的。","再來，剛剛我忘了是哪一位委員一直在講說，馬英九他真知灼見、他是個大預言家，我現在就來提馬英九時代，他8年只有核定1座電廠3部機組，對嗎？他要交接的時候，那時候我們用電的備載容量只有1.6%對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是我們經歷過了前面8年的努力，到現在我們都至少維持10%，甚至以上，所以會跳電、會停電就等於缺電嗎？我想這邊我打一個非常大的問號喔！","好，再來我們供電其實也更加地穩定了，我想全力發展再生的能源，我們在用低碳燃氣作為橋接的能源，這才是真正比較專業、全面的能源政策，而不是目光如豆用政治性的語言，一直在架空臺灣、一直說我們不行，我們就用法律來把它改到行，這對我來講，真的是叫做無賴的行為。","再來，最重要的核電能不能夠再運轉、核廢料放在哪裡？這才是最基本的問題，我想他們在修改法條的時候，這個部分我不知道他們敢不敢講？我們這個部分是不是來做一下解釋？目前他們核廢料的處理，我們大家都知道核廢料是先要放置在用過的燃料池3到5年，對不對？再移至乾式貯存槽，存放40之後，最後才是放到所謂處置的永久存放，這是整個所有的程序。那現在臺灣核廢料的處理，我們找到解方了嗎？請教兩位。"],["陳主任委員東陽：乾式貯存目前才開始在起步，我們核一、核二廠其實都已經運轉40年，所以有些燃料在爐心還沒辦法拿出來。最終處置設施我們碰到極大的困難，主要是民意溝通、地方政府的態度，當然還有一些我們天然地質、選址的困難等等，我在報告裡面都有提到相關的情況，即便在國際上永久設施還是極為困難的問題，連美國目前也沒有。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，所以目前其實還沒有達到全民的共識，甚至核廢料還是基於安全上最重要的一個問題，我們看到核一、核二廠，尤其是核二跟新北市政府最近才剛剛行政調解而已，這個問題沒有解決，有可能再運轉嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：如果核二這個乾貯沒有解決，沒辦法再運轉。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，這個就是我們的結論。很多人可能在講說為什麼……剛剛我也聽到另外一位委員在講說，日本可以，為什麼我們不行，所以日本發生了什麼事情？就是講我們審查安全為什麼要3到5年，甚至要5到10年，這是不是只有「安全」這兩個字，是不是就是安全的問題？安全至關重要，所以剛剛他們在講說為什麼日本可以不用？為什麼我們臺灣要？所以日本有沒有福島的問題？問一下。"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個安全是所有最終、最主要的元件啦！我們要核安會就是要確保所有的安全，才會有後續的一些問題，當然核廢料也是必要處理的事情，剛才有提到處理核廢料有相關的難度。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，所以就算核電廠要重新再運轉，我們也必須要在期限之內申請，這是本來就應該做的，但是我們看到有很多人的版本，它其實就是把這個所謂的不行要改到行，把安全所設定的申請期限這些文字全數刪除，甚至還有人的版本說，只要主管機關認定它安全無虞的時候就可以，相對來講，就可以無照運轉啦！就是這個意思，這樣子對嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個核安會沒辦法接受啦！所有東西還是要以安全為考量，沒有經過安檢就沒有辦法確保、沒辦法再營運，我們會裡面也沒有人敢承擔，沒有經過安檢就可以核發執照。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以核安會真的是把關我們核安最重要的一個部門啦！應該這麼講，不是只有你們不能接受，光是我們一般的民眾也沒辦法接受，是這樣子在玩這種所謂文字上的遊戲。所以我真的誠懇地建議，為什麼我們要有所謂的一定要在申請期限當中？是基於「安全」兩個字，如果只是因人設事，先射箭再畫靶，簡直就是罔顧核能的安全。所以你說它要再運轉，第一，我們沒有缺電的問題；第二，我們的再生能源現在的效率其實真的比過去要多上非常多。這才是我們的主軸，所以核能最重要的是「安全」兩個字，沒有安全為前提，今天如果要進入法條的審查，本席在這裡堅決反對。謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝各位。","接下來請張雅琳委員。","本席宣布在羅廷瑋委員質詢完畢之後休息5分鐘。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳春城","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蘇清泉等\n26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具\n「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應\n器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.6340937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.67534375,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.185343750000001,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.68659375,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.70346875,"end":16.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.72034375,"end":16.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.88909375,"end":16.922843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.922843750000002,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.973468750000002,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.024093750000002,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.04096875,"end":17.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.95221875,"end":56.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.203468750000006,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.03034375,"end":85.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.65471875,"end":85.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.58284375000001,"end":108.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.87909375000001,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.23721875,"end":165.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.71346875,"end":176.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.89784375000002,"end":177.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.28596875000002,"end":226.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.24034375000002,"end":229.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.78409375,"end":230.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.96534375000002,"end":276.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.21534375000005,"end":278.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.24471875,"end":319.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.24659375000005,"end":338.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.15096875,"end":340.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.90596875,"end":342.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.93909375000004,"end":348.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.61346875000004,"end":351.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.77346875,"end":359.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.31221875,"end":362.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.24409375000005,"end":377.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.42346875000004,"end":385.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.67534375,"end":388.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.03346875,"end":389.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.36221875,"end":411.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.73909375000005,"end":410.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.64159375,"end":449.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.33596875,"end":457.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.38971875000004,"end":466.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.72596875000005,"end":476.71596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.76659375,"end":500.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.96534375000005,"end":530.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.10409375,"end":531.6440937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.551,"text":"案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案﹚"},{"start":17.064,"end":41.817,"text":"國務委員早早安兩位早安我想今天其實在這邊發言其實我真的不建議今天進入法條的審查就像剛剛其實我們諸多的委員在提到沒有任何的社會共識在昨天其實還有很多的專家學者他們紛紛去講就算今天藍白他們用人數的多數通過了這些就是我知道不行法規說不行我要把它改到行"},{"start":42.777,"end":53.303,"text":"這像巨嬰欸 這像耍賴欸所以其實沒有取得任何的社會共識之前我覺得核能的安全安全兩個字不是只有我們這一代我們還有下一代這個是最重要的一個課題"},{"start":57.335,"end":77.8,"text":"好,那我想呢今天很多人可能會在講說什麼能源錯誤啦然後跳電啦然後的停電啦我想問一下兩位尤其是我們的這個主委安全很重要但是很多人在講說現在是不是真的有所謂的跳電停電就是缺電等於缺電嗎跳電停電等於缺電嗎這個部分是不是請你們來說做一個說明"},{"start":86.896,"end":103.28,"text":"我說明一下,跳電停電剛才講不是缺電因為它現在都是單獨的一個設施或一棟大樓去停這有可能是本身的一個設施或是外面有一些設備的那如果是缺電的話應該是這一整個區域它才會一整個去停電"},{"start":107.901,"end":126.046,"text":"所以跳電停電不等於台灣缺電這個是真的拜託大家一定要先有的一個觀念所以其實我在這邊就先糾正這個觀念然後再來我們談到所謂的能源政策我覺得一定要更理性再生能源的佔比其實從2023年相對的來講相較於2016年我們成長了將近快要八倍"},{"start":132.808,"end":137.211,"text":"那今年其實我們的占比一定會超過10%到了2025年會達到15%甚至到於2026年的10月我們將到達20%的一個目標所以其實我們的供電絕對會更加的穩定"},{"start":148.417,"end":162.388,"text":"這是毋庸置疑的再來剛剛我忘了是哪一位的委員一直在講說馬英九他深知灼見他是大預言家我現在就來提馬英九時代當年他的八年只有核定一錯電廠三部機組對嗎當時"},{"start":168.752,"end":175.315,"text":"他那時候要交接的時候只有備載我們的用電的備載容量只有1.6%對不對但是到現在我們經歷過了前面八年的努力我們現在都至少維持百分之十甚至以上所以會跳電會缺電就等會跳電會停電就等於缺電嗎我想這邊我打一個非常大的一個問號"},{"start":196.785,"end":225.668,"text":"再來我們的供電其實也真的更加的穩定了那我想全力發展再生的能源我們在用低碳燃氣作為橋接的一個能源這才是真正比較專業真正比較全面的一個能源政策而不是目光如鬥用政治性的語言一直在架空台灣一直要我們說我們不行我們就用法律來把它改到行"},{"start":226.588,"end":249.523,"text":"這真的是叫無賴的行為對我來講好再來最重要的核電能不能夠再運轉核廢料放在哪裡這才是最基本的問題我想他們在修改法條的時候這個部分我不知道他們敢不敢講我們這個部分是不是來做一下解釋目前他們"},{"start":250.243,"end":266.133,"text":"核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等22人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等"},{"start":279.581,"end":304.387,"text":"那個乾式儲存目前才開始在起步那麼我們核一核二廠其實都已經運轉40年所以有些燃料在爐心還沒辦法拿出來那最終處置設施我們碰到極大的困難那麼主要是這個民意溝通地方政府的態度那這些當然還有一些我們天然的地質"},{"start":305.928,"end":319.546,"text":"選址困難等。我在報告裡面都有提到相關的情況。那麼即便在國際上那麼永久設施還是極為困難的問題。那麼即便美國目前也沒有。"},{"start":321.274,"end":342.04,"text":"好,所以目前其實還沒有達到全民的共識甚至我們的核廢料的問題還是基於最重要的還是安全上的一個問題連我們看到核一、核二尤其是我們的核二跟新北市政府最近才剛剛行政調解而已那這個問題沒有解決有可能再運轉嗎?如果核二這個干處沒有解決沒辦法再運轉"},{"start":349.656,"end":362.427,"text":"好 這個就是我們的結論好 那很多人可能在講說為什麼剛剛我也聽到另外一位委員在講說日本可以 為什麼我們不行所以日本發生了什麼事情"},{"start":364.281,"end":387.352,"text":"就是講我們那個審查安全為什麼我們要3到5年甚至要5年到10年這是不是只有就安全這兩個字是不是就是安全的問題安全至關重要所以剛剛他們在講說日本可以啊為什麼日本可以不用為什麼我們台灣要所以日本有沒有輔導的問題問一下"},{"start":391.551,"end":411.321,"text":"安全是所有的最終最終最主要的元件然後那麼我們要核安會就是要確保所有就是安全可以確保那麼才會有後續的一些問題那當然核廢料也是必要處理的事情那剛才我提到是廢料就相關的難度"},{"start":412.719,"end":435.866,"text":"所以就算核電廠要重新再運轉我們也必須要在期限之內申請這是本來就應該的但是我們看到了有很多人的版本他其實就把這個所謂的不行要改到行把申請期限安全所設定的申請期限這些文字全數刪除"},{"start":437.606,"end":465.809,"text":"甚至還有人的版本說只要主管機關認定他的安全無虞的時候就可以相對來講就可以無照運轉啦就是這個意思這樣對嗎這個核安會沒辦法接受啦齁那麼所有東西還是要以安全為考量沒有經過安檢就沒有辦法確保沒辦法再營運我們會裡面也沒有人敢承擔沒有安檢就可以合法執照"},{"start":466.83,"end":493.687,"text":"所以核安會是真的把關我們的核安最重要的一個最重要的一個部門啊應該這麼講不是只有你們不能接受光是我們一般的民眾我們也沒辦法接受是這樣子在玩這種所謂的文字上的一個遊戲所以我真的誠懇的建議為什麼我們要有所謂的一定要在申請期限當中是基於安全兩個字"},{"start":494.768,"end":519.314,"text":"如果只是因人設施,我先設建我再劃吧。我再劃吧。那簡直就是罔顧核能的安全。所以你說它要再運轉。第一我們沒有缺電的問題。第二我們的再生能源現在的效率其實真的比過去要多上非常多。所以這才是我們的主軸。所以核能"},{"start":520.074,"end":528.421,"text":"最重要的是安全兩個字沒有安全為前提今天如果要進入所謂的法條上的審查本席在這裡堅決反對謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154611","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154611","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8b93c2dddbed1a48fa39103cf15d5982f90a5faf2fa6890fc51333fc182bd9e865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"10:11:13 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Financial Crisis也就是亞洲金融危機之前，也有考量到是不是要把它納管，結果那時剛好金融危機發生，之後這個部分就pending在那邊。不過我總覺得委員好像對於融資公司的授信行為，這個好像也是授信，你覺得就是說……不過我想金管會會好好地去考量這部分。"],["王委員世堅：好好地考量，那要考量多久？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個就是由金管會……"],["王委員世堅：它已經考量結束，正式答復我喔！說現行機制就可以管理，結果現行機制是如何？這薯條三兄弟造成社會多大的危害跟亂象，深受其害者，尤其青年朋友、尤其需要資金的民眾是如何地被薯條三兄弟壓榨。","總裁，另外，為什麼我說財政部也要管？因為九大公營行庫就是屬財政部管，九大公營行庫董事長、總經理都是由財政部長任命的，結果你知道嗎？九大公營行庫在這十年間貸放給薯條三兄弟，就這三家而已，授信給它的額度高達8,921億，9,000億之多！然後實質放款給它是4,854億，將近5,000億。他們用1.7%的低利貸款給薯條三兄弟，薯條三兄弟左手貸低利1.7%，右手放高利貸給需要的民眾、放給青年朋友們，我們公營行庫眼睜睜地看著來自社會大眾的資金，縱容交給薯條三兄弟去吸血，吸民眾的血、吸青年朋友的血，眼睜睜地看著它在幹這種事，這不是縱容嗎？而且一而再、再而三。本席提出要求要管理之後，到現在4個月了，給我一個答復說現行機制就可以管理，現行機制是這個樣子、是這麼惡劣，縱容薯條三兄弟吸民眾的血！所以我請問楊總裁還有彭主委，公營行庫、我們公家管理的，如果讓薯條三兄弟吸民眾的血，你們於心何忍！這是我們的同胞，可以這樣子嗎？只因為這些有需求的民眾們、青年朋友們借貸無門，我們政府就讓他們給薯條三兄弟去剝皮，剝三件皮、四件皮，去吸他們的血，可以這樣嗎？所以我要求，楊總裁，我把金管會主委交給你，你糾正他這一點，根據中央銀行法第二十九條，本來就可以要求他，彭主委，我今天對你非常地失望！我本來對你抱以厚望啊，我想你新上任，你還保有赤子之心，會保護我們多數需要資金的民眾們合理的貸款，結果不是！抱歉，再給我30秒。總裁，抱歉，我生氣個3秒鐘。","另外，總裁，我要交代你，你要要求金管會，剛才提到的房市泡沫化，竟然我們前十名的建設公司負債比都在75%以上，最高的高達88.6%，將近九成，這都會造成房市泡沫化。你看，借錢給這些不肖建商，低利貸款借給它、高額度借給它，讓它去買地、養地、圈地，難怪房地產會一漲再漲，難怪需要的民眾們都買不到房子。所以金管會彭主委，你的重責大任在你的肩上，好不好？我希望任重道遠，從今天開始積極面對這些問題，去解決這些問題。楊總裁，我把彭主委就交給你了。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員的質詢。","接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.497843750000001,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.56909375,"end":13.007843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.906593750000003,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.007843750000003,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.395968750000002,"end":13.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.555343750000002,"end":20.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.21346875,"end":20.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.49596875,"end":26.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.305343750000002,"end":45.407843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.66096875,"end":47.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.618468750000005,"end":48.462218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.23846875,"end":58.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.26221875,"end":71.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.51346875,"end":71.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.71596875,"end":82.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.74971875,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.86721875,"end":76.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.88721875,"end":83.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.18659375,"end":105.56721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.66846875,"end":112.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.57034375,"end":113.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.97096875000001,"end":120.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.18096875,"end":120.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.40034375,"end":131.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.02721875,"end":134.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.14909375000002,"end":135.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.92534375,"end":137.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.19096875,"end":137.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.41034375,"end":137.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.59596875,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.03471875,"end":139.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.78534375,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.30784375000002,"end":192.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.99534375000002,"end":176.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.48846875,"end":179.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.39534375000002,"end":179.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.03909375,"end":192.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.62534375,"end":192.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.70971875,"end":193.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.81096875,"end":196.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.24096875,"end":219.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.77659375000002,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.78159375,"end":219.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.45659375000002,"end":221.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.23284375,"end":244.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.88721875000002,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.59596875000003,"end":245.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.58284375000002,"end":249.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.93284375000002,"end":259.298468750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那我要跟委員報告就是說等到我們往前推 我們還是有啊 我們在推啊 我們還是積極的推啊到某一個時點的時候呢 好像這個時機很成熟的時候 那總裁你的意思就是說事實上數位貨幣的推動 它的進程跟它的時間表你們是"},{"start":266.34,"end":267.061,"text":"有請彭主委"},{"start":290.686,"end":314.228,"text":"喂好彭主委我蠻失望的你正式回給我的答覆就是說我要求我們金管會應該負起責任做到兩點第一點對於現在租賃公司他造成的社會亂象跟對貸款需求的民眾對他們的危害這些我認為金管會第一點要"},{"start":315.205,"end":344.105,"text":"負起這個責任對租賃公司融資公司下去做管理第二個應該立一個融資租賃公司管理法才對結果你給我的答覆裡面我認為融資租賃公司管理法這個部分我認為需要而且刻不容緩結果你的答覆以你的專業你竟然答覆我我照你的答覆念你說現行機制啊"},{"start":345.046,"end":367.513,"text":"以及金管會近期的措施已經有處理的機制了第二個你說對於這個租賃公司的管理你說你會持續跟財政部、經濟部、消保會他們保持這部分的聯繫合作那你的答覆是這樣那這個答覆齁"},{"start":368.909,"end":391.65,"text":"我完全不能接受我相信社會大多數的民眾在瞭解租賃公司尤其最大的這三家占總租賃融資金的95%的這數條三兄弟對他們的惡行惡狀造成社會的亂象社會是不能接受的所以你這個答覆我不接受"},{"start":392.83,"end":420.622,"text":"我不接受。你認為就不用管嗎?你說現行機制已經有啦。我請問啦,現行機制哪一條是我們管得到這些租賃公司的?現行機制連金管會你都不用管,也管他不到不是嗎?現行機制裡面是把租賃公司推給經濟部管。結果經濟部管,是管他什麼?管他公司法。"},{"start":422.543,"end":427.607,"text":"欸!經濟部公司法管理是管理全國140萬家公司!"},{"start":429.249,"end":455.364,"text":"所以數條三兄弟一年的營業額超過五六千億以上他只不過140萬分之三天啊我們國家我們最高的監管單位竟然如此的縱容這些二次的租賃公司縱容這數條三兄弟你正是白紙黑字這樣跟我答覆的喔"},{"start":456.721,"end":478.656,"text":"我對你本來很多期許我想你學有專精在金融尤其保險這個部分你是非常好的風評結果你今天這樣給我答覆所以在你想一下你再答覆我不接受就對我先請楊總裁楊總裁是"},{"start":485.114,"end":496.839,"text":"根據中央銀行法第29條本來中央銀行就可以對像現在這樣子二值的這些融資租賃"},{"start":498.92,"end":522.287,"text":"這些二次的條約本來就可以有管理所以你認為應不應該由政府出面交由金管會財政部對融資註定公司立一個專法來管理而且把管理的權責收回金管會加上財政部"},{"start":523.479,"end":542.017,"text":"你認為需不需要?對於這個議題,我想就是說,事實上政府在亞洲金融危機之前也有考量到是不是要把它納管"},{"start":544.119,"end":569.452,"text":"那結果呢在那個時候呢就是說剛好就是說金融危機發生了以後這個就騙頂在那邊不過呢我總覺得啊委員這樣的話好像就對這個融資公司的一個那個一個一個授信這個好像也是授信啦授信的一個行為呢你覺得就是說不過呢我想就是說監管會他會去好好的去考量他啦"},{"start":569.892,"end":594.617,"text":"好好的考量,那需要考量多久啦?這個就是說,我們還...他不只是考量,他已經考量結束,正式答覆我喔,說現行機制就可以管理結果現行機制,這數條三兄弟造成社會多大的危害跟亂象深受疾害者,尤其青年朋友,尤其需要資金的民眾"},{"start":595.868,"end":616.45,"text":"那是如何的被數條三兄弟壓榨那那個總裁我另外一時候我就講為什麼說財政部也要管因為九大公營行庫就是屬財政部管啊九大公營行庫董事長總經理都是財政部長任命的結果你知道嗎九大公營行庫啊"},{"start":617.441,"end":645.356,"text":"在這十年間貸款給數條山兄弟就這三家而已喔受信給他的額度高達八千九百二十一億九千億之多然後實質放款給他的四千八百五十四億將近五千億他們低利1.7%的低利貸款給數條山兄弟"},{"start":646.417,"end":658.94,"text":"主條山兄弟左手對低利1.7%右手放高利貸放給虛後的民眾放給青年朋友們我們公營航空演稱真的"},{"start":660.612,"end":679.254,"text":"看著來自社會大眾的資金縱容交給數條山兄弟去吸血吸民眾的血吸青年朋友的血眼睜睜的看大家幹這種事這不是縱容嗎而且一而再再而三"},{"start":681.107,"end":703.843,"text":"本席提出要求要管理之後到現在四個月了給我一個答覆說他現行機制就可以管理現行機制是這個樣子欸是這麼惡劣縱容數條三兄弟吸民眾的血所以啊我請問啊那個楊總裁還有彭主委啊公營含庫我們公家管理的"},{"start":711.226,"end":731.337,"text":"如果我們讓楚條三兄弟吸民眾的血你們於心何忍這是我們的同胞會可以這樣子嗎只因爲我們需要的這些民眾們青年朋友們"},{"start":732.759,"end":760.06,"text":"他們借貸無門我們政府就讓他們給數條三兄弟去剝皮剝三件皮、四件皮去吸他們的血可以這樣嗎所以我要求楊總裁我把金管會主委交給你你糾正他這一點根據中央銀行法第29條本來就可以要求他"},{"start":761.601,"end":767.646,"text":"所以彭主任我今天對你非常的失望我本來對你抱以厚望啊我想你新上任啊"},{"start":769.09,"end":769.991,"text":"一、二、三、好。"},{"start":793.593,"end":819.491,"text":"另外我要交代給你就是說你要要求金融剛剛才提到的房市的泡沫化竟然我們負債比前10名的建設公司負債比都在75%以上最高的高達88.6%將近9成這都是會造成房市泡沫化你看借錢給這些不孝建商"},{"start":821.028,"end":822.529,"text":"我把彭主委就交給你啦"},{"start":850.306,"end":850.327,"text":"好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154610","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154610","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f83a346495f0a30f47ca0ece664f026f7b90a5faf2fa6890fc43ec86b666c9fb855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:11:38 - 10:21:08","影片長度":"00:09:30","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:11:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:21:08+08:00","duration":570,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時11分）謝謝主席，請核安會陳主委、經濟部連次長以及國發會的鄭簡技。"],["主席：好，我們就請三個單位的代表，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：陳委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：早安。今天我們要討論「核子反應器設施管制法第六條修正草案」，其實這件事情涉及國家非核安全發展的方向，國發會這邊是今天只派產業處的鄭簡技，本席其實要表達一下質疑，國發會好像不太重視我們非核家園發展的方向。","環境基本法第二十三條規定政府應訂定計畫，逐步達成非核家園的目標，並且應該加強核能安全的管制、輻射防護、放射性物料管理及環境輻射偵測，確保民眾避免輻射危害，這邊我想請教國發會的鄭簡技，目前非核家園的目標是不是都是一致的，有沒有變動？"],["鄭簡任技正永銘：跟委員報告，非核家園的目標是環境基本法的終極目標，國內的能源政策目前也是以這個方向來處理。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以是一致的，是沒有變動的吧？但是跳電跟停電是不是等於缺電，本席認為跳電跟停電是不等於缺電的，會跳電跟停電其實跟電力供應的調度還有管制的缺失是有密切的關係，我這邊想請教次長，跳電、停電跟缺電有什麼差別？你這邊是不是說明一下。"],["連次長錦漳：跳電跟饋線跳脫不是缺電啦！如果是缺電的話，應該是一整個區域，如果區域性……應該是一整個區域，它現在跳的都是譬如說這棟大樓，旁邊為什麼沒有？那個一定是設備上的一些問題，所以跳電不等於缺電……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以很明顯的就是整個電力供應的調度跟管制的缺失嘛？就像本席剛剛所說的，次長，一年多前111年臺灣大學社科院的風險社會與政策研究中心有一份臺灣缺電風險分析報告，其裡面寫說，政府不缺電的方案裡面有五個風險，第一個就是電力調度的管理困難度提升，第二個是新式電網的發展太慢，第三是再生能源多元化進度落後，還有電力需求評估不明確，以及地緣政治風險，這邊想請教次長，如果我們使用核電，就能解決以上這些問題嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：沒辦法，我剛才有講，核電最快也要5年啟動，如果整個機組再去檢修或是有什麼問題，搞不好要超過5年，這5年對於整個電的補充是沒有幫助的，所以我們不能用這樣的條件來規劃未來整個電的供應，所以這個對整個供電是比較危險的策略，我們一定是在一個最嚴格的條件下，我要怎麼來充分供應臺灣整體的供電，這個是我們經濟部一個比較穩健的作法。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝次長，的確如果使用核電也沒有辦法解決剛才提出的這些問題，所以本席認為，核電廠根本沒有繼續運轉的必要，因為我們無法完善核廢料的最終處置與核電廠在運轉的安全，當我們連核廢料都沒有辦法有效處置的時候，其實我們要討論核電廠再運轉，根本是沒有實質意義的。我的鄉親都很焦慮的一直問我為什麼會有委員要提案、要修法？核廢料我們根本無法處置、無法處理，這些提案委員有沒有保證他們能夠做這些核廢料的最終處置？其實是沒有，我們沒有辦法處理我們核廢料的這些問題。","今天我們要討論的這個修正草案，現行的第六條有規定期滿須繼續運轉者，經營者須於執照有效期屆滿前，向主管機關申請換發執照，我想請教次長，台電這邊有沒有規劃核電廠要申請換發執照或是繼續運轉？"],["連次長錦漳：沒有。"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：如果台電沒有規劃要……"],["連次長錦漳：目前的法律規定是不允許的。"],["陳委員秀寳：不允許也沒有規劃嘛！所以台電沒有規劃要申請換照繼續運轉，那我們今天為什麼要審查這個草案的必要性？你們沒有要提出這樣的需求，所以法案根本沒有修正的必要性。今天討論的修正法案原文有規定說，核子反應器設施運轉執照最長期間是40年，期滿須運轉者，經營者須於主管機關規定之期限內申請換發執照，未依規定換發執照者，不得繼續運轉，我想請問陳主委，當營運執照到期後，它已經到期了，能不能換發執照？"],["陳主任委員東陽：目前的法令是不允許。"],["陳委員秀寳：當初立法的時候是如何考量？時空背景有沒有改變？"],["陳主任委員東陽：在前5年到前15年，主要是因為安檢的需求，這個安檢的需求其實我們是跟隨美國相關的經驗，所以跟全世界是同步的。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以主委您剛剛也回答了，其實所有相關的規範都是為了安全考量，安全是最重要的，民眾真的非常的擔心，我要請教主委，如果條文真的強行通過，沒有經過換發執照的審查程序，真的可以確認核子反應設施是安全無虞的嗎？我們要經過怎樣的程序才能確定核子反應設施是安全的？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分，台電必須事先就它想要研議的機組做健康檢查，然後提出一個報告，這個報告我剛才提到，它就是一個老化分析、整體性的老化評估、老化安全分析、時限老化分析，這個運轉機組的相關條件，這個報告檢視完後，如果它有零件或者是某些設備需要更換，它必須去做更換、更新，然後把所有的報告送到核安會來，核安會是由國外、國內跟我們會內的專家，就各個專業領域去做審查，這個時程還要看所有報告的完整性，看看是不是有什麼問題，他們可以需要再改進，所以時程有一定的不確定性。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以時程是絕對不能倉促的，因為每一個關卡都是攸關著核能的安全，核電廠的運轉執照換發是攸關整個核能安全及公共利益的重要事項，民眾也希望知道如果像國民黨委員這樣子的修法、這樣子的提案，便宜行事，他們很質疑立法院怎麼可以擴權擴成這樣，只要是立法委員想做的，修法就可以，都可以不用顧慮安全、不用顧慮程序、不用顧慮是不是專業，民眾真的覺得非常的擔心，他們會覺得怎麼可以讓民眾這麼擔憂。我現在要請教主委，已經屆期限才申請換發執照，在整個營運跟監管會遇到什麼風險？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個全世界的案例非常非常的少，以核二來講，我們已經停機將近2年，它還要做乾貯，最快最快還要再3年，所以假設延役的法案通過，它要重啟最快也要5、6年以後，一臺車你用了40年，停機6、7年，你要再重啟，那麼我們的安全檢視有更強的密度，是有一定的難度。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以主委回答的意思是有時候這個風險是非常非常的高，其實我們臺灣在世界產業的供應鏈上，是一個非常重要的角色，當然民眾、企業都需要穩定的供電，所以本席要要求，我們在發展多元綠能跟智慧電網的同時，經濟部跟台電一定要強化電力系統供應的韌性。","最後，本席這邊要提醒大家，其實臺灣產業努力於改善能源的密集度，這幾年下來其實是有成效的，我們節省下來的用電量遠遠大於新建一座、兩座核電廠裝置的容量，如果我們體認到這個事實，就會發現我們臺灣為了爭論核電已經浪費太多的社會資源，造成更多的社會紛爭跟民眾的焦慮，所以本席認為，與其爭論臺灣應不應該採用核能，陷入曠日廢時的立法與後續選址、環評跟興建的過程，應該審慎地來規劃碳費，推出更多節能減碳的政策工具，會更加立竿見影。","因此本席在這邊也要建議召委，今天真的不要進入逐條審查，在沒有取得社會共識之前，不要倉促將民眾不接受、未取得社會共識的法案出委員會，以上。謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝！各位請回座。","接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳春城","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蘇清泉等\n26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具\n「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應\n器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.16596875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.632843750000003,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.15846875,"end":22.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.20471875,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.62346875,"end":66.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.97346875000001,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.14534375000001,"end":87.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.98346875,"end":88.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.00034375,"end":110.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.31346875000001,"end":110.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.19096875000001,"end":127.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.17159375000001,"end":133.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.51221875000002,"end":164.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.34284375000001,"end":196.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.67971875,"end":228.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.37909375,"end":235.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.73659375000003,"end":255.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.50159375,"end":256.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.05846875000003,"end":256.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.48034375000003,"end":256.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.64909375,"end":258.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.83034375,"end":261.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.08721875000003,"end":282.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.41721875,"end":298.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.36409375,"end":303.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.10159375,"end":305.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.22784375000003,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.54346875000005,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.57909375,"end":351.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.85346875000005,"end":354.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.79409375,"end":384.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.39284375,"end":385.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.36721875,"end":404.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.76096875,"end":429.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.73596875000004,"end":454.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.68971875000005,"end":489.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":489.03471875,"end":568.1615937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.043,"end":0.703,"text":"保委員。謝謝主席。請何恩威、陳竺偉、經濟部連次長以及國發會的正檢記。好,我們就三個單位的代表,謝謝。"},{"start":21.454,"end":41.853,"text":"陳委員好早安今天我們要討論核子反應器的設施管制法第六條修正草案其實這個事情這個試射國家非核安全發展的方向那國化會這邊是今天是指派產業處的政檢記本席其實要表達一下質疑國化會好像不太重視我們非核家園發展的方向"},{"start":42.814,"end":66.272,"text":"在我們環境基本法第23條規定政府應定定計劃逐步達成非核家園的目標並且應該加強核能安全的管制輻射防射輻射的防護以及放射性物料管理環境的輻射政策確保民眾避免輻射危害那這邊我想請教國防局的鄭檢記目前非核家園的目標是不是都是一致的有沒有變動"},{"start":71.261,"end":76.546,"text":"跟委員報告非核家園的目標是這個環境基本法的這一個"},{"start":78.517,"end":105.093,"text":"非核家園是環境基本法的終極目標那這個國內的能源政策目前也是以這個方向來處理所以是一致的是沒有變動的但是呢跳電跟停電是不是等於缺電本席認為說跳電跟停電是不等於缺電的會跳電跟會停電其實跟電力供應的調度還有管制的缺失是有密切的關係那我這邊想請教次長"},{"start":107.354,"end":112.475,"text":"條電停電跟缺電有什麼差別?你這邊是不是說明一下?所以很明顯的就是整個電力供應的調度跟管制的缺失就像本席剛剛所說的市長"},{"start":133.961,"end":161.939,"text":"一年多前,一零一年的台灣大學社科院的風險社會與政策研究中心有一份台灣缺電風險分析報告裡面寫說政府不缺電的方案裡面有五個風險第一個就是電力調度的管理困難度提升第二個是新式電網的發展太慢第三是增生能源多元化進度落後還有電力需求評估不明確以及地緣政治風險那我這邊想請教次長,如果我們只用核電"},{"start":162.839,"end":180.136,"text":"就能解決以上這些問題嗎?是沒辦法我剛才有講如果核電剛才要講說最快你要是5年啟動那如果說在整個基礎再去檢修或是有什麼問題搞不好要超過5年那這5年其實對於整個在電的補充是沒有幫助的所以我們不能用這樣條件來規劃我未來整個"},{"start":182.739,"end":183.019,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具"},{"start":204.625,"end":227.754,"text":"因為我們無法完善核廢料的最終處置與核電廠再運轉的核電廠這個安全當我們連核廢料都沒有辦法有效處置的時候其實我們要討論核電廠再運轉根本是沒有實質意義的我的鄉親都很焦慮的一直問我說為什麼會有委員要提案要修法核廢料我們根本無法處置無法處理那這些提案的委員有沒有保證他們能夠"},{"start":229.435,"end":250.892,"text":"做這些核廢料的最終處置其實是沒有我們沒有辦法處理到我們核廢料的這些問題喔那這邊今天我們要討論的這個修正草案現行的第六條有規定說期滿需繼續運轉者經營者需執照有效期借滿前向主管機關申請換發執照那我想請教次長台電這邊有沒有規劃核電廠要申請換發執照或是繼續運轉"},{"start":255.515,"end":281.085,"text":"沒有沒有如果台電沒有規劃要目前的法令規定是不允許的也沒有規劃嗎所以台電沒有規劃要申請換照繼續運轉那我們今天為什麼要審查這個草案的必要性你們沒有要提出這樣的需求所以根本沒有這個法案修正的這個必要性今天討論的這個修正法案原文有規定說核子反應器設施運轉期"},{"start":282.866,"end":297.632,"text":"執照最長其間最長是40年齊滿需運轉者、經營者需於主管機關規定至期限內申請換發執照,未依規定換發執照者不得繼續運轉。當營運執照到期後,已經到期了,能不能換發執照?目前的法令是不允許當初立法的時候是如何考量?時空背景有沒有改變?"},{"start":311.63,"end":325.817,"text":"是要在前5年到前15年主要是因為安檢的需求那這個安檢的需求其實我們是跟隨美國的相關的經驗所以是跟全世界是同步的"},{"start":326.658,"end":351.619,"text":"所以主委您剛剛也回答了其實所有的規範相關的規範都是為了安全考量安全是最重要的民眾就真的非常的擔心我這邊要請教主委如果條文真的強行通過沒有經過換發執照審查的這個程序真的可以確認核子反應設施是安全無虞的嗎我們要經過怎樣的程序才能確定核子反應設施是安全的這個部分"},{"start":354.841,"end":369.818,"text":"台電必須事先就他想要研議的機組做健康檢查然後提出一個報告那這個報告我剛才提到他就是一個老化分析整體性的老化評估老化安全分析實現老化分析這個運轉機組的相關的條件"},{"start":373.041,"end":390.587,"text":"那這個報告檢視完如果他有零件或者是有某些設備需要更換他必須去做更換更新然後把所有的報告送到核安會來核安會是有國外國內跟我們會內的專家就各個領域專業領域去做審查"},{"start":392.848,"end":405.958,"text":"那這個時程還要看這個我們這個所有報告的完整性那麼看看是不是有什麼問題他們可以需要再改進的所以時程有一定的不確定性所以時程是絕對不能倡處的"},{"start":407.619,"end":428.95,"text":"因為每一個關卡都是攸關著安全核能的安全核電廠的運轉執照換發是攸關整個核能安全及公共利益的重要事項那民眾也希望知道說如果像國民黨這樣級的委員這樣子的修法這樣子的提案平行是"},{"start":429.89,"end":442.261,"text":"他們很質疑說怎麼可以立法院擴權擴成這樣只要是立法委員想做的修法就可以都可以不用顧慮安全不用顧慮程序不用顧慮是不是專業這個民眾真的覺得非常的他們會覺得說怎麼可以讓民眾這麼擔憂那我現在要請教主委已經借期限才申請換發執照那在整個營運跟監管會遇到什麼風險"},{"start":456.675,"end":477.23,"text":"這個全世界這個案例非常非常的少那麼以核二來講我們已經停機將近兩年那他還要做乾除最快最快還要再三年所以假設研議的法案通過他要重啟最快也要五六年以後一台車"},{"start":478.331,"end":478.491,"text":"三、審查委員"},{"start":493.368,"end":509.119,"text":"那其實我們台灣在產業這個世界的產業供應鏈上是一個非常重要的角色當然民眾企業都需要穩定的供電所以這邊本席要要求說我們在發展多元綠能跟智慧電網的同時呢經濟部跟台電一定要強化我們電力系統這個供應的這個韌性那最後這邊本席要提醒大家"},{"start":515.703,"end":523.427,"text":"其實台灣的產業努力於改善能源密集度這幾年下來其實是有成效的我們集成下來的用電量遠遠大於興建一座兩座這個核電廠的裝置的容量如果我們體認到這個事實就會發現說我們台灣為了爭論核電已經浪費太多的社會資源造成更多的社會紛爭跟民眾的焦慮所以本席認為說與其爭論台灣應不應該採用核能"},{"start":542.356,"end":547.279,"text":"現入跨論費時的立法與後續選址、環評跟興建的這個過程應該審慎的來規劃碳費推出更多的節能減碳的政策工具會更加的立竿見影因此本席在這邊也要建議召委今天真的不要進入逐條審查在沒有取得社會共識之前不要長途的將民眾不接受未取得社會共識的法案出委員會以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154609","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154609","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f86aca3391c4ef3c71a9bb3959728069a090a5faf2fa6890fc7640df9354259b2b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:05:48 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10:18:34","影片長度":"00:12:46","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T10:05:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:18:34+08:00","duration":766,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":278,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時5分）謝謝主席。有請顧部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：沈委員好！"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好！我還是回來今天我覺得比較重要的問題，因為今天的這個報告事項是跟創新小組有關係，所以我還是以這個問題為主，我看能不能快一點，補一下剛剛失去的時間。","第一個、按照這一次的業務報告，剛剛羅美玲委員也有問過，就是有從TRL1一直到TRL9，民間學術機構負責的比較是一些基礎，中科院去做一些整合，創新小組可能更從一些戰略的角度，然後跟國外的一些溝通等等之類的，這是我們根據這一次國防部的業務報告做的小小整理。第一個我想問的事情就是從1到5這一邊跟組件、模組比較有關係，這都是民間在做，中科院會做一些，譬如在系統整合裡面，在作戰環境下要怎麼展示，但因為創新小組與中科院在這一邊看起來功能重疊蠻多的，所以想知道的第一件事情就是中科院在這邊的定位到底會是偏向什麼？是不是創新小組比較像是發想，中科院做執行呢？還是有另外的分工方式？"],["顧部長立雄：創新小組必須根據我們相關的，就像您剛剛提到的，特別是聯戰的需求，來發展分析較佳的一些戰術戰法與行動方案，然後哪一些武器能夠運用一些成熟的先進科技來提升防衛力量，這樣子的話，它就等於是作為一個橋梁，它會將國內或者是國外我們得到的這些相關資訊進行瞭解，瞭解以後，經過大家討論，認為是OK的，另外，我們會進一步向民間來公開徵集，它雖然是有了，但是我們這整個系統也好，裝備也好，可能還要有進一步的解決方案，它再進一步徵詢一些解決的方案，相關如果已經到達某一個程度的話，我們中科院仍然扮演不可或缺的角色，仍然要交給中科院去做相關的系統整合或者是進一步研發成為裝備，這樣的話，期程會縮短。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，因為時間的因素，有一些小細節我先不問，第一個我可能下一次再問，當然民間成熟科技會是我們很重要的一個目標，但我在看美方的時候，其實美方有時候做不一定會找成熟科技，它不找成熟科技的時候，中間會有一些來來回回的確認，到底這個科技要怎麼運用在軍方這邊，以及它本來是商規，商規要怎麼變成軍規，而不是一開始就要求它要軍規，會有一些細節的問題，但這個細節的問題我想晚一點問。","根據剛剛部長的回答請教，關於中科院的角色，左邊這個第三條是說中科院的業務範圍，裡面包含生產、製造、銷售、國內外的交流等等之類的，我在前任邱部長的時候有提過一件事情，中科院會負責生產、製造及銷售，但因為中科院的董事長是國防部長來兼任，今天如果創新小組去提出一些需求，到時候國防部也需要做採購，但是因為中科院本身的董事長也是部長自己，所以不管怎樣，以法律上來講，這樣等於是買方及賣方都會有國防部長，這一點會有點奇怪！當然不一定會是一個問題，是因為它本來就不適用一些政府採購的規定，但是像剛剛講的，譬如說資訊上的一些整合或者系統的整合，它並沒有很完整地定在中科院的業務範圍，所以除了剛剛講的這個利益上的衝突小點之外，我在想說我們是不是要把中科院的一些根據今天的業務報告做一些修正？這我還沒有提出來，因為我覺得這個是要慢慢來回討論的事情，我這邊只是嘗試性地寫寫看，第一個就是中科院畢竟會有一些比較需要更突破性的創新發展，所以我用紅字把它標在第一款；然後第四款這邊，因為有講到技術移轉跟技術服務，這是本來的條文，我就想說因為系統測試跟整合是中科院非常重要的目標，是不是應該在修法的時候在中科院的任務把這一個放進來？我覺得這是重要的；再來第二項，往下就把這幾款的突破型技術、關鍵技術，依照我們本來建軍需求去把它建立起來，這是我的第一個建議。","第二個就是講到生產跟製造這一邊，就像我之前在質詢夜視鏡，夜視鏡今天有提出需求之後，401也有給、中科院也有給，可能民間也有給，但是因為中科院給它的角色就會特別奇怪，因為畢竟董事長就是部長自己，所以不知道就這一點而言，有沒有可能我們在休會期的時候來討論一下中科院的定位，然後根據這一個新的方案，是不是有一些修法的必要？"],["顧部長立雄：這可以來研議，進一步來研議中科院更明確的定位。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，那就是希望我們看能不能在之後的時候討論一下這一點，因為畢竟如果按照今天的業務報告，其實中科院看起來還有更多的任務要做，如果今天民間的能量是越大的，民間可以做越多事情的時候，中科院可以更專注在做整合，甚至更專注在做研發，因為我們其實非常需要中科院做研發，中科院確實過去也做了對我們國防很重要的這些研發工作，如果更多事情放在研發，然後民間加入的話，這個對我們的國防整體應該會有更好的提升。","接下來就是因為在報告裡面有提到AI，那當然我這邊會有兩個小問題，因為裡面有提到一些優先事項跟其他要做的事情，那優先事項裡面其實並沒有把網路戰放在優先事項，但是我覺得比較奇怪的一點是，我們民間最強的看起來是網路，雖然剛才有一個資通電的插曲，但是臺灣確實在民間上，網路這個部分是滿強大的，所以這個方面的創新是不是應該把民間的網路相關的一些量能放進來？這是我第一個問題。第二個問題就是AI，因為右邊這一個是中國之前的武裝機器狗，美國的眾議院就要求他們的國防部長要報告AI如果去結合這樣的一個方式，會不會變成一個不受控的殺人武器，我們臺灣因為畢竟AI的演算，如果今天按照中科院之前講的要做一個偵打一體的無人機，偵打一體的無人機也有可能會有這些問題，就是說它如果不受控該怎麼辦，今天它的AI演算要不要直接鎖在裡面，它不要去連接外部，這些事情不知道有沒有一些研擬相關的規範？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一個、網路戰的部分，在我們報告的第3頁是有提到我們會關注網路戰的部分，這第一個。"],["沈委員伯洋：但是沒有放在優先。"],["顧部長立雄：對，沒有，也不能說沒有放在優先，我們會持續來關注這些，網路戰也是我們持續重點的關注項目之一。AI的這個部分，在軍事上的應用上面，應該是說生成式的、自我學習的這一個部分的運用要非常注意，所以自我學習然後自我去發動攻擊這個部分，在軍事的運用上面是大家現在非常地concern的，所以我們這個AI系統要讓它不至於成為不受控的、自己可以自我決定去的這樣子的一個狀況應該是不至於，我們不會讓它成為自動的殺人機，我們最後決定的指令還是要接受人的指令，只是說……中科院要補充。"],["李院長世強：跟委員很簡單報告，就是AI運用在軍事用途上，最基本的倫理就是最後的攻擊指令必須要由人來下達而不是AI，這是我們會嚴守的原則。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，沒問題，因為目前來講，就是我這邊列的，2023年美國跟荷蘭，荷蘭之前還有歐盟，都有發布叫做負責任軍事使用人工智慧的政治宣言，另外一個是軍事領域負責開發、部署和使用AI，有些規則對外公布，我覺得這也是我們可以做的事情，而這應該在行政上或許都可以做，所以搭配這一次的業務報告，我覺得這件事情或許是將來我們可以考慮的。","最後還有那麼一點點時間，我根據DIU的部分，大概問到這一邊，最後一個是要問蔡媽媽這3個月一直以來都在樓下，部長可能也知道，部長以前也有在洪仲丘案，我也有在洪仲丘案，我們對這些事情其實也相對熟悉，他們之前有開一個記者會，就是說到底軍冤委員會要不要讓它比較有一個常態性的設置，這是第一個。第二個就是，其實蔡學良案國防部後來已經有發新的報告了，然後也有去說跟原來的報告不符，我覺得這當然還是涉及一個軍中轉型正義的問題，就是說後來的確生出了一個比較正確的報告，但是在過往的那麼長的一段時間，為什麼這個報告一直都沒有出來？所以我覺得這個雖然是一個過去的事情，但是我覺得軍中如果能夠做好一些轉型正義的工作，我覺得大家對整體政府、對國軍的信任度也會有提升。"],["顧部長立雄：未來陸海空軍懲罰法裡面會明定關於類似這樣子重大的案件會組織一個專案調查小組，然後會讓當事人來做陳述，之後還有一個相關的應該是專案評議會，會請外部的委員來參與我們調查小組之後的評議，未來陸海空軍懲罰法如果通過的話，那就有像這樣的一個機制。蔡學良案我當然自己也一直感同身受，但是它確實已經經過相當多的司法程序的調查了，這個部分我們面對司法已經窮盡了，我想這個部分，我們行政調查是不是有辦法能夠再做更多，這件事情，因為我們沒有翻轉司法調查結果這樣的權力，所以這一點可能也要請委員能夠諒解。"],["沈委員伯洋：我覺得這一點是OK，就是司法程序的進展我們不會去置喙，但是我覺得一直比較傷感的地方就是在過去有很長一段時間，它其實有翻轉的機會，但是有一段時間一直沒有辦法去生成這樣的報告，後來是迫於壓力之後才形成，我們想要問的就是說在這個之前的狀況，我們要怎麼樣在體制內讓這種事情不要再發生，不是說這個案件不要再發生而已，而是說案件發生了之後，它的迅速調查、正確的調查、外部的監督機制能夠出現，讓以前這種調查錯誤、不調查的狀況不要再發生了。"],["顧部長立雄：對，剛剛提到陸海空軍懲罰法就有類似這樣的案件一定會成立一個專案，然後另外會再把調查報告交給評議會，這個評議會幾乎應該過半是外部的委員專家……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，之前審的時候。"],["顧部長立雄：這樣就類似一個……因為外界有確實的聲音說軍冤委員會要……那我認為陸海空軍懲罰法這樣的一個機制，如果能夠儘快通過的話，就等同這樣的機制是可以把它體制化這樣子。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒有問題，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：我們下面請馬文君委員來質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林楚茵","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革\n新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學\n及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.22909375,"end":1.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.759718750000001,"end":8.755343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.92409375,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.661593750000002,"end":83.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.24159375,"end":163.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.60721875,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.27971875,"end":244.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.08971875,"end":340.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.37409375000004,"end":350.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.11971875,"end":350.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.17034375000003,"end":350.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.37284375,"end":372.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.47471875,"end":456.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.70221875000004,"end":463.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.37221875,"end":462.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.13159375000004,"end":464.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.41409375,"end":503.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.93659375000004,"end":469.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.51034375,"end":469.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.44534375,"end":480.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.54659375000006,"end":480.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.95971875000004,"end":483.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.47846875000005,"end":484.73159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.29409375000006,"end":518.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.40659375,"end":512.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.44784375,"end":518.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.02159375,"end":519.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.03846875,"end":531.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.18034375,"end":529.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.9734687499999,"end":529.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.4922187500001,"end":618.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.31409375,"end":675.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.71846875,"end":622.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.99721875,"end":648.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.6172187500001,"end":684.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.48596875,"end":679.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":684.68346875,"end":687.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.8559687500001,"end":723.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.39471875,"end":734.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.77409375,"end":725.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.3940937500001,"end":727.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.6259687500001,"end":728.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.84534375,"end":728.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":734.76846875,"end":737.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.1059687500001,"end":735.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.2490937500002,"end":738.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":738.5147187500002,"end":740.1515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":740.7084687500001,"end":752.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.89784375,"end":744.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.20034375,"end":755.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":759.79409375,"end":760.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.3972187500001,"end":761.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":761.4140937500001,"end":763.0678437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.93,"text":"請顧部長,謝謝請顧部長是,沈委員部長好,那我還是回來今天我覺得比較重要的問題因為今天的這一個報告事項是跟這一個創新中心有關係所以我還是以這個問題來為準那我看能不能快一點補一下剛剛失去的時間"},{"start":24.799,"end":44.634,"text":"第1個就是按照這一次的業務報告就是剛剛羅美玲委員有問過就是有這個TRL從1一直到9然後民間學術機構比較負責的是一些基礎那中科院去做一些整合那創新角度可能更從一些戰略的角度然後跟國外的一些"},{"start":46.355,"end":68.949,"text":"這是我們根據這一次國防部的業務報告做的一個小小的整理那第一個我想問的事情就是從一到五這邊跟組件跟模組比較有關係看起來跟民間這都是民間在做那中科院會做一些比如說他在系統整合裡面然後要在作戰環境下要怎麼展示但因為創新小組跟中科院在這一邊看起來功能重疊的蠻多的"},{"start":70.771,"end":82.729,"text":"所以想知道的第一件事情就是中科院在這邊的定位到底會是偏向什麼是不是說是創新小組比較像是發想中科院做執行呢還是說有另外的這一個分工的方式"},{"start":83.474,"end":110.726,"text":"創新小組必須根據我們這個相關的你剛提到特別是聯戰的這個區域需求然後來發展出一個分析較佳的一個一些戰術戰法跟行動方案然後哪一些武器能夠運用一些先進科技成熟的先進科技然後來提升防衛力量那這樣子的話它就等於是作為一個橋樑"},{"start":111.846,"end":136.005,"text":"他將這個國內或者是國外的這些我們相關得到的一個資訊那我們會進行了解了解以後呢經過大家討論認為是OK的那另外我們會進一步向民間來公開徵集他雖然是有了但是我們這整個系統也好裝備也好可能還要有進一步的解決方案"},{"start":137.066,"end":161.619,"text":"他再進一步跟他徵詢一些解決的方案那相關如果已經到達某一個程度的話我們中科院也是仍然扮演不可或缺的角色仍然要交給中科院去做相關的這個系統的整合或者是進一步的這個研發成一個就是直接成為一個裝備可以來那這樣的話期程會縮短"},{"start":163.908,"end":180.318,"text":"那因為時間的因素有一些小細節我先不問第一個這個我可能下一次再問就是說當然就是說民間成熟科技當然是會是我們很重要的一個目標但我在看美方的時候呢其實美方有時候他做的他不一定會找成熟科技那他不找成熟科技的時候呢他中間會有一些"},{"start":181.178,"end":202.673,"text":"來來回回的一些確認到底這個科技要怎麼運用在軍方這邊然後以及他本來是商規然後商規要怎麼變成軍規而不是一開始就要求他軍規會有一些細節的問題但這個細節的問題我想晚一點問因為我想根據剛剛部長的回答關於中科院的這個角色就是說左邊這邊是中科院的第三條說中科院的業務範圍"},{"start":205.675,"end":223.17,"text":"中科院會負責生產、製造、銷售、國內外的交流等等之類的那第一個呢我還是就是說這個我在前面在這個邱部長的時候我有提過一件事情就是因為中科院他會負責生產製造跟銷售但因為中科院的這個董事長是國防部長來做兼任"},{"start":224.031,"end":244.027,"text":"那今天如果是這個創新他們去提出一些需求然後到最後國防部也需要做採購但是因為中科院本身他的董事長也是部長自己啦所以這個其實不管怎樣的這個在以法律上來講這個等於是這個買方跟賣方都會有這個國防部這一點會有點奇怪啦那這個"},{"start":245.388,"end":258.964,"text":"當然不一定會是一個問題是因為它本來就有它不是用一些政府採購的規定但是呢像剛剛講的譬如說資訊上的一些這個整合或者系統的整合它並沒有很完整的定在這個中科院的業務範圍"},{"start":260.265,"end":285.184,"text":"所以除了剛剛講的這個利益上的這個衝突的一個小點之外我有在想說我們是不是要把這一個中科院的一些根據剛剛今天的業務報告做一些修整這個我還沒有提出來因為我覺得這個是要慢慢來回討論的事情我這邊只是嘗試性的寫寫看就是第一個就是中科院它畢竟會有一些比較需要更突破性的一些創新發展所以我用紅字把它標在這一個第一款"},{"start":286.005,"end":300.926,"text":"然後第四款這邊呢因為有講到技術移轉跟技術服務這是本來的條文我就想說因為系統測試跟整合是中科院非常重要的目標那是不是應該在修法的時候把中科院的任務把這一個放進來我覺得這是重要的"},{"start":301.306,"end":328.3,"text":"然後再來第二項往下就把這幾款的突破型技術關鍵技術依照我們本來的建軍需求去把它整理起來這是第一個我的一個建議那第二個就是講到的就是生產跟製造這一邊就像我之前在質詢葉士進葉士進今天有提出需求之後401也有給中科院也有給可能民間也有給那但是因為中科院給他的角色就會特別的奇怪因為畢竟董事長就是部長自己"},{"start":328.92,"end":339.873,"text":"所以不知道就這一點而言有沒有可能我們在休會期的時候就是來討論一下就是中科院的定位然後根據這一個新的方案是不是有一些修法的必要"},{"start":343.182,"end":366.281,"text":"這可以來研議,來進一步來研議中科院的更明確的定位,這樣子。好,那就是希望就是說我們看能不能在之後的時候討論一下這一點,因為畢竟如果按照今天的業務報告,其實中科院看起來還有更多的任務要做。那如果今天民間的這一個能量是越大的,民間可以做越多事情的時候,中科院可以更專注在做整合。"},{"start":366.681,"end":367.002,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":382.443,"end":397.26,"text":"好那接下來就是因為在報告裡面有提到AI那當然我這邊會有兩個小問題就是說因為裡面有提到一些優先事項跟其他要做的事情那優先事項裡面呢其實並沒有把網路戰把它放在優先事項但是"},{"start":398.061,"end":421.761,"text":"我覺得比較奇怪的一點是我們民間最強的看起來是網路就台灣雖然剛剛有一個自動電的一個差距但是台灣確實在民間上網路這個部分是蠻強大的所以這一個方面的創新這個部分是不是應該把民間的這個網路相關的一些量能放進來這是我第一個問題那第二個問題就是AI因為右邊這一個是中國之前的這個武裝機器狗"},{"start":425.465,"end":442.14,"text":"眾議院在美國的眾議院就要求他們的國防部長要報告就是說他這個AI如果去結合這樣的一個方式會不會變成一個不受控的一個殺人武器那我們台灣因為畢竟AI的一個演算如果今天按照中科院之前講的要做一個真打一體的無人機"},{"start":442.941,"end":464.066,"text":"那真打一體的無人機它也有可能會有這些問題嗎就是說它如果不受控該怎麼辦那今天它的AI的演算要不要直接鎖在裡面它不要去連接外部這些事情不知道有沒有一些嚴厲相關的規範跟委員報告第一個網路站的部分在我們報告的第三頁是有提到我們會關注網路站的部分這第一個但那沒有放在優先"},{"start":465.126,"end":493.112,"text":"對沒有也不能說沒有放在優先我們會持續來關注這些網路戰也是我們持續重點的關注項目之一AI的這個部分在軍事上的應用上面應該是說深層式的那種自我學習的這一個部分的運用要非常的注意對所以自我學習然後自我去發動攻擊這個部分在軍事的運用上面是現在大家就非常的"},{"start":496.133,"end":515.943,"text":"所以我們這個AI的這個系統要讓它不至於成為不受控的自己可以自我決定去的這樣子的一個狀況應該是不至於我們不會讓它成為自動的一個殺人機我們最後決定的這個指令還是要接受人的指令"},{"start":519.085,"end":546.225,"text":"跟委員很簡單報告就是AI運用在軍事用途上最基本的倫理就是最後的攻擊指令必須要由人來下達而不是AI這是我們會嚴守的原則對沒問題因為這個目前來講就是我這邊列的2023年美國跟荷蘭還有荷蘭是結合歐盟都有發布叫做負責任軍事使用人工智慧的政治宣言那另外一個是軍事領域負責開發部署和使用AI有些規則"},{"start":547.666,"end":561.779,"text":"對外公佈我覺得這也是我們可以做的事情這應該在行政上或許就可以做所以搭配這一次的業務報告我覺得這件事情或許是將來我們可以考慮的最後還有那麼一點點時間根據DIU的部分大概問到這一邊最後一個是要問蔡媽媽這三個月一直以來都在樓下部長可能也知道"},{"start":572.688,"end":592.876,"text":"那部長以前也有在紅中秋案我也有在紅中秋案我們對這些事情其實也相對熟悉啦那他們之前有開一個記者會就是說到底軍援委員會要不要讓它比較有一個常態性的設置這是第一個那第二個就是呢其實在雪良案國防部後來已經有發新的報告了然後也有去說這跟原來的報告不符啦"},{"start":593.456,"end":617.722,"text":"那我覺得這當然還是涉及一個軍中轉型正義的問題就是說為什麼就是後來的確生出了一個比較正確的報告但是在過往的那麼長的一段時間為什麼這一個報告它是一直都沒有出來所以我覺得這個當然呢我們這雖然是一個過去的事情但是我覺得軍中如果能夠做好一些轉型正義的工作我覺得對整體政府的那一個大家對國軍的信任度也會有提升"},{"start":618.482,"end":631.818,"text":"未來陸海空軍懲罰法裡面會有明定關於類似這樣子重大的一個案件會組織一個專案的調查小組然後會讓當事人來做陳述之後還有一個相關應該是"},{"start":633.9,"end":653.079,"text":"專案評議會來請外部的委員來參與這個我們吊牙小組之後的一個評議這樣子對未來來講是我們在陸海公益審判法案如果通過的話那就有相當的一個機制那蔡協良案我當然自己也"},{"start":653.719,"end":674.946,"text":"一直感同身受但是他確實已經經過相當多的司法程序的調查了這個部分我們面對這個司法已經窮盡了我想這個部分我們行政調查是不是有辦法能夠再做更多這件事情因為我們沒有這個"},{"start":676.91,"end":686.255,"text":"這樣子的一個翻轉這個司法調查的結果這樣的一個權力所以這一點可能也要請委員能夠諒解"},{"start":688.215,"end":714.084,"text":"我覺得這一點是OK的我覺得司法程序它的進展我們不會去智慧當然我覺得但是我覺得一直比較傷感的地方就是在過去有很長一段時間它其實有翻轉的機會但是有一段時間一直沒有辦法去生成這樣的報告然後後來是迫於壓力之後才形成那我們想要問的就是說在這個之前的狀況我們要怎麼樣在體制內讓這種事情不要再發生不是說這個案件不要再發生而已而是說案件發生了之後"},{"start":714.224,"end":714.504,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":740.909,"end":752.939,"text":"因為外界有確實的聲音說軍演委員會要這樣那我認為陸海公益懲罰這樣的一個機制如果能夠盡快通過的話就等同這樣的機制是可以把它體制化這樣沒有問題謝謝部長謝謝主席我們下面請馬文君委員來質詢"}]}},{"id":"154608","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154608","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8654752e5ec513df72652beeb573fd6de90a5faf2fa6890fc14c0d4092921a8965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:56:48 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10:11:04","影片長度":"00:14:16","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會、財政部率所屬相關單位列席就「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:56:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:11:04+08:00","duration":856,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":36,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-36"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時56分）主席，我還是先一個會議詢問，你剛剛在我第一次會議詢問的時候說今天安排這個專報，是因為有本委員會委員請你安排這個主題，所以你安排了這個主題。我發現你雖然是本屆才進入立法院，你也對於我們委員會裡面委員詢問、質詢的自由度跟自主性都很大，剛剛我也拜聽了機關代表的說明，也聽了前面兩位委員的質詢，請教主席，你覺得你原來安排這個題目的專報有沒有符合之前那位委員對你請求希望安排的內容？有沒有？"],["主席：鍾召委，我們尊重每個委員的發言。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，都尊重啊！"],["主席：鍾召委，如果你有興趣可以去看一下我們歷次會議的直播，跟會議無關，整天在喊國會擴權、抗中保臺的是誰？所以我們不要在那邊討論這個問題，有興趣私下我們兩個討論就好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，因為你剛剛有一些跟法務部長可能是私下的對話，你公開講，如果按照你剛剛的詢問，你覺得你過去當檢察官有被施壓，或許今天的專報題目可以改為如何促進本國司法檢察官獨立辦案，免於施壓的專報，這樣不是更好嗎？"],["主席：鍾召委，我哪一句話說我被施壓？"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛黃委員問完之後就問你啊！"],["主席：鍾召委，我剛剛特別講了一句，我在為全國的檢察官講話，剛剛黃國昌委員講話，我也說了一句，以前怎麼樣我不知道，但是我相信部長不會，我也非常期待部長，我剛剛講了，如果你覺得不是，你回去聽聽看我剛剛說的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我尊重你的表達，您說過去你也不知道，包括你本人有沒有被施壓也不知道。"],["主席：不是！我跟你講，我記憶力沒有那麼差，過去的事情我想講不想講這是我的權利，任何人沒有權利逼我說，在這邊我相信你跟我，我們兩個都參加過劍青檢改會議，我們兩個都是支持檢察官的，我只希望我們就是挺基層檢察官，就這樣而已。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我支持、我支持，所以我很支持今天的專報如果是這個題目就更好了，不過你這個題目我也很喜歡，因為我過去在財政委員會多年，這個題目非常適合在財政委員會大家來關心這樣的一個題目。","接下來我要邀請內政部董次長、工程會徐處長以及財政部李司長，我們就今天專報的主題來就教，雖然這個場景可能比較像在財政委員會。"],["主席：麻煩次長、處長、司長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好、司長好、處長好。我們今天來關心所謂的公私模式，其實我也覺得很好奇，今天這個題目要怎麼來談，次長，這個圖你很熟悉，這是大學經濟學原理的供給曲線和需求曲線，我的標題怎麼說？我的標題是目前國家用融資及租稅手段要控制房市價格，但是根本是要用公共建設增加供給來滿足需求。我們來看這個圖，黑色的線是民眾對於房地產住屋的需求曲線及供給曲線，需求曲線是D，價格越高，需求就會被壓制；價格越低，數量就會越多，D是需求曲線。目前的供給曲線是S，我們認為價格P太高了，所以政府希望能夠把價格壓低，當價格壓低的時候是P2，透過房地合一稅，還有一個閉鎖期，以至於供給曲線變成怎麼樣？供給變少。供給變少的結果是什麼？當S變成S2的時候，價格就更高了，是不是這樣子？你同不同意？所以目前我們用融資、租稅的手段，包括房地合一稅、閉鎖期來避免房市炒作，短期間內抑制了高單價物件的飆漲。但是長期來看，至少目前是造成供給減少，造成需要住屋的民眾要花更高的價格買到更少的房子，是不是這樣子？同不同意？"],["董次長建宏：主席、委員。感謝委員提問，原則上住宅不一定符合一般供給需求的狀態，住宅的供給過程有興建期的狀態。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，會有延遲。"],["董次長建宏：基本上，新青安還是幫助了許多年輕人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：減輕他目前融資的負擔。"],["董次長建宏：對，減輕一些負擔。但是我們也希望在房價上面要有所平抑，所以我們希望透過平均地權條例或者房地合一稅等等，降低高單價的一些炒作，希望讓年輕人可以透過一些比較合理的方式來取得房子。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，因為內政部主管住宅，但是後面的問題在我們司長這邊了。司長，如果我們今天變成S1曲線，這是供給曲線，供給曲線增加了供給量，增加供給量之後價格會下降，可以滿足的需求量就更大，是不是這樣子？變成S1，是不是這樣子？所以要增加供給嗎？"],["李司長建賢：按照理論上是這樣子。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以前面說的，我們不否定政府的一些政策，的確在控制高房價、高物件的飆漲跟炒作是有效的，但長期來看，還是要增加供給，才能讓一般的年輕人買得到房子，是不是這樣子？現在我們就要問司長了，有一種叫作地上權宅，我就不多做介紹，地上權宅土地是國家的，興建之後他在地上權的期限內，這個純粹的住屋是可以交易的，司長是不是這樣子？它跟社宅是不是不太一樣？"],["李司長建賢：這部分的業務不是我所主管的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，那我就問次長，是這樣沒錯吧？這個地上權宅跟社宅，社宅是用租賃的，不能轉售，但是地上權宅沒有土地，他不擁有土地，而是土地上的建物，他擁有它的所有權，一定年限的所有權，可以交易嘛，是不是？新加坡是不是這樣子？"],["董次長建宏：對，是。地上權是可以交易的，新加坡……"],["鍾委員佳濱：新加坡的組屋就是這樣的地上權宅？"],["董次長建宏：對！組屋是這樣的邏輯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下地上權宅的缺點是什麼？它不能繼承，因為時間到，它就被收回，一般來講現在國內沒有繼承考量的戶數，包括我們看到15歲以上未婚人口、婚前有自用住宅的非婚生子女人口比例，我們算一算，其實推估國內沒有繼承需要的住屋需求大概有高達超過500萬戶，所以如果沒有繼承考量的部分民眾會不會偏好地上權宅？因為價格便宜嘛！不用含土地成本。"],["董次長建宏：基本上，對於相關土地的住宅需求，我們會討論各種方式來協助社會的需要，但是我們要觀察社會的需求，目前內政部所主導的政策，我們還是希望透過出租的方式，包括直接興建……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對！直接興建。"],["董次長建宏：包括包租代管、租金補貼，我們都希望透過這樣租金補貼的方式，或者租金的一些價格補貼，來降低大家的需求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那新加坡無土地所有權的地上權宅是不是也是一種可能考慮的方式？"],["董次長建宏：這當然都是可以列入討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以讓你們興建地上權的住宅，我們來看一看，假設一棟房子地上15樓、地下4樓，地上1、2樓的可以做店鋪，地下4層樓可以做車位，這個部分很適合作為興建者不把它賣掉、把它用來做營利使用，但是上面的3樓到15樓，可以用地上權宅的方式出售。請問次長，你覺得這樣的地上權宅，未來是不是能夠透過地下的車位跟店面回收他的興建成本？"],["董次長建宏：我想我們會再進行研議，這些相關的議題比較複雜啦！我們會本於提供國人合理安全的住宅，我們會做一些相關的思考。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，新青安目前核貸了五萬七千多戶，撥出的貸款額度高達四千兩百多億，利率補貼是0.5%，每年支出要20億，如果我們今天用地上權宅提高房屋的供給，不是用利息補貼的方式，讓民眾、需要的年輕人去市面上購買已經興建好的住宅，我們來看看會有什麼結果，往下看。如果政府釋出地上權宅，是否也能夠滿足部分民眾對社會住宅的需求？次長，你覺得呢？"],["董次長建宏：對所有可能的方式我們都會進行研議，我們的目的就如同委員講的，我們要讓住者有其屋，讓年輕人負擔得起。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實剛剛那個圖，就這個圖再往下看，我們去設算一下啦！如果把剛才那個地下4層樓、地上15層樓，他設定地下車位跟店舖，以不動產證券化的方式來經營，他的成本是可以透過這些底下營利的使用方式來回收興建成本，而相對住戶純住宅需求的價格會非常地低，大概是500萬以下。所以我想請問一下李司長，以剛剛我舉地上權宅的這個例子，目前以財政部持有的公有土地，如果選擇一部分除了蓋社宅之外，也來興辦這樣的地上權宅，您覺得可不可以提高我們對於民眾，尤其是年輕人，需要住屋的需求？"],["李司長建賢：是！報告委員，目前財政部國產署的確有在辦理有關地上權住宅的一些標案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有在標了，是不是？"],["李司長建賢：有在辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是！"],["李司長建賢：但是實際的情形，我沒有辦法來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果以剛剛例子為例，未來以促參的方式，以政府來興辦底下有營利能力的車位也好、店舖也好，用不動產證券化的方式是不是可以透過民間的資金來幫助政府，也不用公務預算的方式，就可以用基金的方式來興辦地上權宅，您覺得有沒有這個可能？"],["李司長建賢：以促參法裡面所規範的公共建設，是將社會住宅納為公共建設的其中一個類別。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那有沒有包括地上權宅？"],["李司長建賢：這部分其實就沒有涉及地上權的問題，因為社會住宅本身它的用地其實是國有地，所以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道。地上權宅未來會不會納入社會住宅的一種類型？"],["李司長建賢：這部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們都知道社會住宅是用租的啦！"],["李司長建賢：對！它其實是租的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：地上權宅是賣的啦！"],["李司長建賢：對！所以這部分可能要再討論一下，因為一個是用標租設定地上權來做的，一個是用促參法來做的，兩者不一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，未來促參法也可能把這樣的地上權宅納入促參的範圍，可能嗎？"],["李司長建賢：我們可以來討論看看，因為其實……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那如果用不動產證券化的方式來籌募資金，你覺得可行嗎？"],["李司長建賢：實際上我們也跟金管會一直在討論這塊，目前的投信投顧法也是希望推動用REITs……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們公建可以用REITs的方式來處理信託基金？"],["李司長建賢：是，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝！請教次長，我知道你們內政部是主管住屋的需求，今天我們在談的這個題目怎麼樣透過公私合力的合作模式來滿足我們除了由政府出面來興建之外，也可以引薦民間的力量來滿足人民的需求，是不是這樣？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得剛剛我所舉的這個例子，你願不願意拿回去評估，把地上權宅也併同社宅，納入我們未來政府協助民間獲取租屋的一種模式？"],["董次長建宏：基本上，社宅的政策主要還是以三大項為主，即直接興建、包租代管跟租金補貼，我們希望透過租金補貼方式，先協助年輕人……"],["鍾委員佳濱：直接興建這是一個項目啊！"],["董次長建宏：至於委員所提到的地上權宅部分，我們會來做進一步的研擬，因為剛才財政部也表示這是一個有可能在進行的方式，我們來思考一下，這樣的方式能不能在一定程度上增加供給量，透過增加供給量的方式給予大家更多的選擇。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果政府未來興辦地上權宅，你會支持類似案件需要的資金、融資的方式，也支持未來金管會將不動產證券化（REITs）的方式，把這樣的地上權宅也納入公建的範圍，你支不支持？"],["董次長建宏：這個部分我們需要再做研議、討論，因為REITs真的涉及到比較廣泛的事情，它有營利的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是！司長呢？你覺得未來如果在促參的部分，內政部把類似像社會住宅的地上權宅也納入住屋供給的模式，作為政府公建促參的一部分，你會不會支持？"],["李司長建賢：是，我們很樂觀其成，能夠來加速這個部分的興建。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。次長，那就拜託你，雖然今天是司法及法制委員會，我也不曉得今天為什麼在司法及法制委會討論這個題目，如果是在財政委員會問這個題目，我就很理直氣壯，雖然今天是在司法及法制委員會，請內政部承諾政府出土地興建地上權宅及地上權宅的車位、店面，以不動產證券化的方式開放公私合作營運的可行性，很具體喔！講的方法都很具體，可不可以做一個評估交給本席？"],["董次長建宏：好！我們內政部來研究評估，再向委員做書面報告，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝三位。"],["主席：謝謝鍾召委，我們先休息1分鐘。","休息（10時11分）","繼續開會（10時12分）"],["主席：因為部長人有一點不舒服，我就先請部長回去休息。接下來由常次來代理部長。","下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言。"],["莊委員瑞雄：（10時12班）謝謝召委，有請內政部董次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["董次長建宏：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長好，幾個問題來請教。"],["董次長建宏：是，不敢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：最近整個太平洋高壓太強了，臺灣就像一顆蕃薯一樣，我看我們沒有吹冷氣真的是不行的啦！天氣熱，在室內自然就會去開冷氣，我從2022年的時候，多次針對租屋族電費的部分，來向內政部還有台電、經濟部提出質詢。後來內政部也在租屋的租賃定型化契約應記載跟不得記載事項裡面，有去訂定每一度的電費不得收取超過台電所定當月用電量最高級距的每度金額。但是我們看到很多房東，現在還是會用不超過夏季電費的金額，比如說以一度5塊、6塊去超收，變相在賺這個價差。後來我要求台電就在帳單上加註同期的平均金額，我也一直在呼籲內政部在定型化契約裡面應該去記載，來保障租客繳交實際電費的權益。上個月底的時候，我有看到內政部宣布說租屋電費7月中旬要上路，這個部分要上路，新制的方向是怎麼樣？第二個，如果房東他還是不配合，租客有什麼樣的管道來提供給他們做協助？請次長。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員垂詢，有關於電費的部分，我們在新的定型化契約裡面，經過行政院審核通過之後，已經在7月8號（禮拜一）對外公告。公告過程裡面，如果大家沒有任何的疑義，我們會在7月15號上路，在上路的同時，我們就會把相關的懶人包還有新型的定型化契約都放進去。新型定型化契約裡面就如同委員所垂詢的，我們會把電價的需求狀況明定在裡面，房客跟房東在訂約的時候，每度的電價還有平均單價就是要依照台電所公布的這些相關範疇裡面去制定，而不得超過。如果超過了，會依據消保法的規範由房客去進行檢舉，我們也會有其他的稽核機制去協助進行。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我們預計什麼時候上路？"],["董次長建宏：我們7月15號就會上路。"],["莊委員瑞雄：7月15號就會上路？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好。國庫署今天副署長也有到場，另外一個問題，我就延續剛剛其他委員的問題來請教兩位，我們現在政府整個新青安的政策，其實政府的美意就是想讓年輕人可以買得起房子，現在我們公股銀行總共撥貸40萬2,000戶，我請教兩位，曉不曉得大約這個金額有多大？"],["林副署長秀燕：報告委員，您指的是目前為止累積撥貸金額嗎？"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。"],["林副署長秀燕：如果是四十多萬戶的話，撥貸的金額累積到現在大概是1.9兆。"],["莊委員瑞雄：1.9兆其實是很高的一個數字，我相信政府最主要的目的就是要讓年輕人買得起房子嘛！去（2023）年房屋買賣移轉的棟數30.6萬棟，算是4年來的新低，算新低喔！但這個數字裡面其實是暗藏玄機，2023年下半年移轉的跟上半年比較起來，增加了約21%，為什麼會在下半年增加？兩位就很清楚了嘛！就是我們政府推出了新青安的政策。同時在今年5月份的房屋交易棟數達到兩萬六千多棟，是近10年的新高。","我看財政部最新的統計，新青安單月撥貸的戶數高達將近九千戶，就是八千多戶；平均每戶撥貸金額來到768萬。剛剛副署長談到的就是公股銀行總共撥貸的40萬2,000戶裡面，撥貸的總金額來到了1.8兆，同時今年5月交易棟數2萬6,000棟，是10年來的新高。數據也呈現得很明顯，整個新青安的政策讓房屋市場交易熱絡了起來，熱絡不是壞事喔！熱絡本席倒不反對喔！但是對於這些適用新青安政策的人，似乎大家都是以自住為目的，這其實也是證明大家買房子也變得容易了。","可是我必須要提出來，假設一個中古屋今天開價2,000萬，如果投資客要買的話，就會向下去斡旋，一定會是這樣子，要有一定的利潤嘛！可是投資客認為最高可能是1,900萬，至少要賺個100萬，超過了他就覺得比例太少，就不買了。但同樣如果是2,000萬，年輕人有新青安政策出來以後，多個人在斡旋的話，他就認為我要自住，那我可能就是會向上斡旋，又增加啦！這樣來講的話，又有可能造成房價再度上漲。","所以本席想請教，就我所瞭解，6月24號行政院有開了一個新青安貸款的檢討會議，這個會議裡面是不是有具體的結論？還有，對於整個政策影響整體的房市，內政部你們有什麼看法？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員垂詢，跟委員報告，有關於房市的問題，本部的立場一向是我們要提供足夠的住宅，讓年輕人能夠買得起，所以在那個會議裡面，我們就是提出相關的貸款條件，也拜託財政部多做嚴格的審查，我們也會訂定一些相關明確的方法，讓年輕人能夠申請到相關的資金，而不是說變成是……另外，本部也會與許多的業者合作，我們去瞭解在整個申貸、買賣過程裡面，它必須要從嚴去審核相關的資格，才能夠符合新青安的貸款。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我相信大多數人認為這個政策是對的，政策當然就是對的啦！但是我們也很擔心，因為新青安政策讓漲幅趨緩的房市又再節節飆高，我們擔心的是這個，尤其銀行不是在發錢，那個本金要還的耶！所以我的意思是，我希望內政部跟財政部要特別去留意，尤其是在利用新青安轉租或人頭戶的違規借款戶，到了7月5號，你盤點出來高風險的案件大約是1,000戶嘛！你這1,000戶裡面主要高機率是人頭戶的借款戶以及確定違規的借款戶。我就進一步來請教副署長，有什麼樣的態樣或是行為才會被列入疑似違規或者人頭戶？"],["林副署長秀燕：是，謝謝委員垂詢，我這邊報告的是，新青安施行到現在，誠如剛剛委員提到的，其實新青安的目的是要協助無自有住宅的民眾能夠購屋成家，這個其實是立意很良善的一個政策。至於最近大家在討論可能有一些是人頭戶，或者有一些是申請新青安之後再去轉租的，這個部分我們現在也已經著手在處理了。我們會請各個行庫在受理的時候，除了要落實他貸前的徵審，包含借款人相關的收支狀況，都是在貸前的時候必須要納入核貸的考量；另外就是強化貸後的管理，包含貸後相關資金用途的稽查。再來，我們從6月27號之後，有要求必須要做自住的切結書；另外有限貸1次這樣子的方式。這些努力其實都是希望回到這個政策的初衷，就是讓沒有自有住宅的民眾能夠自住，然後來申請這樣子的貸款。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我最主要是要提出提醒啦！譬如你說屬於比較高風險的，第三人去繳交房貸，其中第三人有可能是父母、有可能是兄弟姐妹啊！這一些可能提出證明都很容易，就不會被列入下一階段的高風險案件。但是有一部分高風險提出的解釋是，那是我兄弟姐妹幫忙的，或者是我的未婚對象，或者我交往的人，大家一起要來繳房貸的，什麼理由可能都會有，但這理由可能是真，也有可能是假，這個你們也必須要特別去留意啦！這些使用人頭戶的人，他也不是笨蛋啦！比如說我是「同一銀行同一第三人」繳交多個借款戶的房貸，這個比較容易發現了吧？可是如果是多銀行呢？我分別在不同的銀行申貸啊，你們各銀行之間的個資到底有沒有互通？這類案件，我請問次長或者是副署長，這些案件你們怎麼去處理？"],["林副署長秀燕：有關可能在不同銀行申貸的部分，目前我們也在跟金管會還有聯徵中心研議，在聯徵的紀錄上面其實可以去做一些讓銀行在受理的時候，就可以看出他是不是曾經在別的銀行也申貸過，這個措施我們目前還在研議，但是大概會朝這個方向來處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個政策年輕朋友會認同，也會喜歡，政府也應該朝這個方向去做，但問題是我們擔心的就是炒作的人，利用我們政府這樣的一個政策，那這整個美意完全就喪失掉了。尤其是我們看這個月房子的一個交戶數，內政部跟財政部在這個地方要特別留意啦，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，下一位我們請羅智強委員，待會在羅智強委員詢答完畢後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-36","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳玉珍","葉元之","翁曉玲","沈發惠","傅崐萁","傅崐萁"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會、財政部率所屬相關單位\n列席就「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":9.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.36284375,"end":24.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.95534375,"end":29.106593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.32596875,"end":44.159093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.85971875,"end":45.205343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.205343750000004,"end":45.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.79596875,"end":45.812843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.812843750000006,"end":45.829718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.829718750000005,"end":54.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.63096875,"end":49.845968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.009718750000005,"end":55.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.039093750000006,"end":66.73784375000001}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以前怎麼樣我不知道但是我相信部長不會我也非常期待部長我剛剛講了如果你覺得不是你們聽聽看我剛剛說的好那我尊重您的表達就是說您說過去你也不知道包括你本人有沒有被"},{"start":112.452,"end":135.206,"text":"我跟你講啦我記憶力沒有那麼差啦那我過去的事情我想講不想講這是我的權利任何人沒有權利逼我說啦在這邊我相信你跟我我們兩個都參加過漸新減改的會議我們兩個都是支持檢察官的我只希望說我們就是挺基層的檢察官是這樣而已所以我很支持說今天的專報如果是這個題目就更好了"},{"start":135.846,"end":135.946,"text":"財政委員會"},{"start":165.294,"end":192.495,"text":"市長好 市長好 處長好來 我們今天來關心的所謂的公私模式那我也覺得很好奇今天的這個題目要怎麼來談其實我們發現 市長這個你很熟悉嘛這是我們大學經濟學原理 供給曲線跟需求曲線我的標題怎麼說 我的標題說我覺得目前我們國家對於用融資及租稅的手段要控制房市的價格"},{"start":193.396,"end":222.475,"text":"但是根本要用公共的建設的增加供應的建設增加供給來滿足需求我來看我們現在我們來看看原來這個黑色的是我們民眾對於房地產住屋的需求曲線這是供給曲線那麼我們的需求曲線是這個D需求曲線價格越高需求就被壓制價格越低數量就越多這個D是這個需求曲線目前的供給曲線是S"},{"start":223.756,"end":243.391,"text":"目前這個P的價格我們認為太高了所以政府希望能夠把這個價格壓低但是它當價格壓低的時候它是P2它是透過房地合一稅還有一個避所期以至於供給曲線它變成怎麼樣供給變少了供給變少的結果結果是什麼"},{"start":244.454,"end":272.481,"text":"是不是當S變成S2的時候價格就更高了是不是這樣子你同不同意所以目前我們用融資我們用租稅的手段包括房地合一稅包括閉鎖期避免房市炒作短期間內抑制了高單價物件的飆漲但是長期來看至少目前它就造成供給的減少造成需要租屋的民眾他更要花更高的價格買到更少的房子是不是這樣子同不同意"},{"start":274.381,"end":286.712,"text":"主席、委員感謝委員提問原則上住宅不一定符合我們一般供給需求的狀態因為住宅供給的過程有興建期的狀態"},{"start":288.974,"end":317.84,"text":"那所以我們基本上新清安基本上還是幫助了許多年輕人減輕他目前融資的負擔是不是對但是我們也希望說在房價上面要有所平益所以我們希望說透過平均地權條例或者房地合一稅等等我們降低高漲價的一些炒作那我們希望讓年輕人可以透過一些比較合理的方式來運營他的房子因為內政部主管住宅啦但是後面的問題在我們市長了市長"},{"start":319.585,"end":334.12,"text":"那是不是如果說我們今天變成是S1曲線,這是供給曲線,這個供給曲線呢增加了供給量,增加供給量之後價格會下降,那個可以滿足的需求量就更大,是不是這樣子?變成S2,S1是不是這樣子?"},{"start":337.445,"end":353.632,"text":"報告委員按照理論上是這樣所以前面說的我們不否定政府的一些政策的確控制高房價高物件的飆漲跟炒作是有效但長期來看還是要增加供給才能讓一般的年輕人買得到房子是不是這樣子好往下看"},{"start":354.572,"end":374.437,"text":"現在我們要有一個就問市長了,地上全宅,我就多多介紹,地上全宅土地是國家的,興建之後他在地上全的期限內,這個純粹的租屋是可以交易的,市長是不是這樣子?他跟社宅是不是不太一樣?包委員,這部分的業務因為不是我...OK,那我們就問市長"},{"start":377.509,"end":403.529,"text":"是這樣沒錯吧這個地上權財跟社財社財是用租賃的不能轉售但是地上權財沒有土地他不擁有土地他是土地上的建物他擁有他的所有權一定前年限的所有權可以交易嘛 是不是新加坡是不是這樣子地上權是可以交易的是不是新加坡的長屋就是這樣的一個地上權財主屋是這樣子的邏輯那主屋我們來看一下地上權財的缺點是什麼他不能繼承"},{"start":404.369,"end":430.769,"text":"因為時間到他就被收回了所以一般來講我們現在國內沒有繼承考量的戶數包括我們看到15歲以上未婚人口婚前有自用住宅的未婚人口的比例我們這樣算一算其實推估國內沒有繼承需要的住屋需求大概有高達超過500萬戶往下看所以說如果說沒有繼承考量的部分民眾會偏好地上全宅"},{"start":432.746,"end":456.48,"text":"因為價格便宜嘛 不用含土地成本報告委員 我們基本上對於相關土地的住宅的需求我們會討論各種方式來協助這個社會的需要但是我們要觀察這個社會的需求那目前內政部所主導的政策基本上我們還是希望透過出租的方式包括我們的直接興建包括我們的包租代管"},{"start":456.84,"end":457.04,"text":"新建地下"},{"start":473.527,"end":492.394,"text":"地上全的住宅我們來看一看假設一棟房子地上15樓地下4樓1、2樓地上的可以做店鋪地下4樓可以做車位這個部分很適合來作為新建者他不把它賣掉他把它用來做營利使用但是上面的3樓到15樓可以用地上全的方式來出售請問市長你覺得這樣的地上全宅未來是不是能夠透過地下的車位跟店面"},{"start":502.977,"end":526.591,"text":"來回收他的信任成本我想這個基本上我們會再進行研議那這些相關的議題比較複雜啦所以我們會基於本已提供國人合理安全的住宅我們會去做一些相關的思考好往下看那我們來看一下新青安的目前呢核貸了五萬七千多戶啊播出的貸款額度高達四千兩百多億利率的補貼是0.5%0.5%每年的支出要二十億"},{"start":530.031,"end":549.294,"text":"如果說我們今天用地上全宅來提高這個房屋的供給不是用一個利息補貼的方式讓民眾需要的年輕人去市面上購買已經新建好的宅我們來看看他會有什麼結果往下看所以如果政府釋出地上全宅那麼能不能也能夠滿足部分對社會住宅的需求?次長你覺得呢?"},{"start":550.166,"end":571.394,"text":"我們會對所有可能的方式我們都會進行研議我們的目的就如同委員講的我們要使著住者有齊屋讓年輕人負擔得起好我們來看一下其實剛剛那個圖往下看就這個圖再往下看我們就射算一下啦如果把剛才那個地下4層樓地上15層樓他設定地下車位跟店鋪以不動產正確方式來經營的話"},{"start":574.455,"end":574.555,"text":"李市長﹗"},{"start":592.216,"end":609.544,"text":"以剛剛我舉的這個例子地上全宅目前以財政部持有的共有土地如果選擇一部分除了蓋社宅之外也來興辦這樣子的一個地上全宅您覺得可不可以提高我們對於民眾尤其是年輕人他需要的住屋的需求"},{"start":611.861,"end":627.519,"text":"報告委員目前呢財政部的國產署的確有在辦理相關有關地上全住宅的一些標案有在標了是不是有在辦理但實際的情形呢我沒有辦法來那後半段那如果以剛剛的例子為例未來在促餐的方式"},{"start":628.479,"end":647.155,"text":"以政府來興辦底下的這有營利能力的車位也好、店鋪也好他來做這樣的不動產、證券化的方式是不是可以來透過民間的資金來幫助政府也不用用公務員的方式就可以用基金的方式來興辦地上全宅您覺得有沒有這個可能"},{"start":648.1,"end":670.691,"text":"報告委員以初參法裡面所規範的公共建設是將社會住宅納為公共建設的其中一個類別那有沒有包括地上全宅這部分其實就沒有涉及地上全的問題因為社會住宅本身它的用地就是國有地我知道社會住宅地上全宅會不會未來納入社會住宅的一種類型"},{"start":674.446,"end":690.953,"text":"這位處長我們都說用租的啦,地上權財是賣的啦對,所以這部分可能要再討論一下,因為一個是用標誅設定地上權來做的,一個是用出餐法來做的好,那出餐法未來也可能把地上權財納入到出餐的範圍,可能嗎?"},{"start":692.482,"end":708.118,"text":"我們可以來討論看看那如果用不動產政修方式來籌募資金你覺得可行嗎?實際上我們也跟金管會一直在討論這一塊目前的投信投顧法也是希望來推動我們公建可以用REITs的方式來處理系統資金是 沒有錯 謝謝 來請教次長"},{"start":710.373,"end":727.489,"text":"那我知道次長你們在內政部是主管住屋的需求今天我們在談的這個題目呢怎麼樣透過公私合力的一個合作模式來滿足我們除了除了由政府出面來興建之外我們也可以引薦民間的力量來滿足人民的需求是不是這樣"},{"start":728.469,"end":753.519,"text":"那你覺得剛剛我所舉的這個例子你願不願意拿回去評估把地上全宅也並同社宅納入我們未來政府協助民間獲取租屋的一種模式跟委員報告基本上社宅的政策還是主要還是以三大項為主就是說我們直接興建報租代管跟租金補貼我們希望透過租金補貼方式先協助年輕人那直接興建這是一個項目嗎"},{"start":754.679,"end":775.497,"text":"那至於委員所提到的這個那個就是說地上全宅的部分我們會來做進一步的研擬因為剛才財政部也表示說這是一個有可能在進行的方式那我們來思考一下就是說這樣的方式能不能在一定程度上增加供給量透過增加供給量的方式給予大家更多的選擇"},{"start":776.158,"end":802.272,"text":"那你支持未來類似政府來興辦地上全宅類似他需要的資金融資的方式也支持未來金管會將不動產證券化瑞慈的方式把這樣的一個地上全宅也納入到這個公建的範圍你支持不支持這個跟委員報告這個部分我們需要再做研議討論因為瑞慈是真的涉及到比較廣泛的事情那他有盈利的問題"},{"start":803.855,"end":820.442,"text":"市長,你覺得未來如果在出餐的部分,我們把這樣,內政部把這樣的一個住屋的供給的模式,類似像社會住宅的地上全台也納入來,作為政府公建出餐的一部分,你會不會支持?我們很樂觀其成能夠來加速這個興建。"},{"start":821.562,"end":846.317,"text":"那次長那就拜託你雖然今天是司法法制委員會我也不曉得今天為什麼在司法法制委員會討論這個題目但是我如果在財政委員會這個題目呢我就很理直氣壯請內政部可不可以雖然今天在司法法制委員會你承諾政府來出土地興建地上全宅及地上全宅的車位、店面以不動產爭議的方式開放公私合作營運的可行性很具體喔講的方法都很具體可不可以做一個評估交給本席"},{"start":846.92,"end":854.934,"text":"好,我們內政部來研究評估,那再向委員做說明報告,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝三位好,謝謝鍾昭偉"}]}},{"id":"154607","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154607","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8671f2034d4993e742652beeb573fd6de90a5faf2fa6890fc09fd7cf4a47809cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"09:40:46 - 09:56:41","影片長度":"00:15:55","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會、財政部率所屬相關單位列席就「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:40:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T09:56:41+08:00","duration":955,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":36,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-36"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":286,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（9時40分）主席，我請鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["謝委員龍介：部長早，辛苦了。先給你按個「讚」！不管是舊案新辦，還是死案活辦，最後不要沒辦！這個案件為什麼很嚴重？因為這和賴總統有關。所以我在這裡很肯定賴清德總統，他說他要打擊黑金、對抗黑金、對抗貪污包庇。我上禮拜二在總質詢的時候跟卓院長說（因為那天不是你的業務，所以你不在現場），若是過去8年的官商勾結，和卓榮泰內閣是沒有關係啦，但是在現在的內閣，如果不辦就變成包庇，這對一個法務部長的清名來說是很嚴重的，所以首先本席在這裡幫你按個「讚」，就是給予肯定。為什麼剛才說鄭文燦這個案件不辦不行呢？這個案件在收錢的那個時候，收錢的那一天就對了，剛好賴清德總統在臺南市要上來當行政院長的時候，他剛好在一個禮拜前就說，他當行政院長之後要解決五缺，包括欠水、欠電、欠土地，因為很多臺商回流，需要很多土地，桃園馬上就「鰗溜循便空」，他要創造很多土地，所以你如果沒有把案件辦清楚，會變成當時的賴清德院長是不是有跟他們勾結在一起了？這是依照他的政策所衍生出來的一個開發案。所以本席在這裡針對這個案件給予你們肯定，也肯定賴總統。但是會很辛苦，也會有很多壓力，你要擋得住，你如果不給這些檢察官支持，當他們的靠山，坦白說，到最後他會像氣球一樣消風了，這樣就枉費社會在肯定你，不過在這邊我也要慎重告訴你，司法打擊黑金、打擊犯罪，但是不要成為政治打壓的工具，這點也很重要，如果成為政治打壓的工具，這樣下去會讓百姓心目中對司法的信賴感再度失望，這一點在這裡跟你肯定，也提醒你。我現在要請教你一個問題，關於4月23日大法官憲法法庭廢除死刑的辯論，照理說是7月23日就要裁判了，有通知你們嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有通知。"],["謝委員龍介：他何時要宣判沒有通知你們？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是要尊重……這是司法院憲法法庭的進行……"],["謝委員龍介：是啊！因為7月23日，它可以延兩個月嘛！它會延嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["謝委員龍介：這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我請郭司長來代為回答。"],["謝委員龍介：沒關係，它沒有通知你們就對了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有通知就沒有答案了嘛！好。三個月內是7月22日就到了，我們的秘書長也同樣當成沒這回事這樣嗎？大法官對於死刑是否違憲的宣判三個月內如果沒有判，最晚9月22日就會判了。好，沒關係，法務部既然沒有收到這個通知，那麼針對這個判決的結果，你們有做推演嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們一定要對整個判決的結果，因為我們對判決怎麼樣，我們不清楚……"],["謝委員龍介：你們會推演嘛！對不對？各種的判決是違憲、不違憲或者是部分違憲，你們都有因應之策嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們一定會做及早的因應，但是我們要隨著一個……"],["謝委員龍介：如果宣告死刑是合憲，那麼這樣依照執行死刑的規定，三十七個死刑犯現在就變成沒有憲法訴訟中間的案件，我們法務部是不是有要執行死刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們還會依照我們執行死刑相關的規定來做檢視。"],["謝委員龍介：這樣你要怎麼挑選執刑的對象？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是個案的一個……"],["謝委員龍介：這是個案？沒有啊！執刑的對象……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個執刑因為我們有一套很縝密的規定，是不是我請我們……"],["謝委員龍介：因為你要看他是不是還可以繼續救濟嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：他如果還有在處於聲請救濟，或者身體有一個……"],["謝委員龍介：已經沒有了嘛！大法官如果說了合憲，他們的案子也都沒有了，或者他是不是有身心障礙嘛！你要怎麼挑啦？因為這個權力是你的啊！權力是你的嘛！對不對？三十七個要先槍決哪一個？你總是要有一個答案，對此，社會有很多的期待，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們有頒布一個執行死刑規則跟審核死刑案件執行實施要點，裡面有一些規定，我們會用這個規定來做審核。"],["謝委員龍介：你知不知道大法官在這一次，法務部有派人去辯論，但是辯論那時候不是你當部長，你有沒有瞭解他辯論的過程裡面，他把死刑判決的程序是不是要強制辯護，以及言詞辯論，加上評議一致決，包括是不是有針對他是身心障礙來判死刑等這些部分列為這次辯論的重點，你知不知道有這件事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是不是我請郭司長？因為他是到場去做陳述意見的。"],["謝委員龍介：沒關係啦！你們法務部有派人去，你不知道他有把這些……"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個時候我還沒有任法務部長。我是不是可以請郭司長？"],["謝委員龍介：可以。"],["郭司長永發：委員好。因為這有列入辯論的內容，但是那個比較不是重點之所在，就有關於……"],["謝委員龍介：你肯定是這樣嗎？"],["郭司長永發：有關於身心障礙，我們的答辯是那個是個案審查的問題……"],["謝委員龍介：好，沒關係，我要問你，你順便在那邊等。所以大法官有可能認定死刑的制度是違憲，或者是有可能認定死刑的制度是合憲，都有可能啦，但是目前這三十七個死刑犯的審理裡面，第一，多數大概都沒有精神鑑定，目前的現況啦！或者是這三十幾個在第三審的時候沒有聘任律師，而且也沒有言詞辯論，若用這三項就因此宣告這樣是違憲，會這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒辦法做預判……"],["謝委員龍介：請司長。你請他回答，因為你那時候不是部長，他比較瞭解。來！你說沒關係。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過這個會不會宣告違憲，並不是我們現在可以預見的，有沒有當時出庭陳述意見，跟這一件應該是沒什麼關係。"],["謝委員龍介：好，如果大法官宣告死刑是違憲，或者是依整個程序不完備而認為是違憲，那麼目前這三十七個死刑犯，是不是可以提起非常上訴，要求重新審理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我請……"],["謝委員龍介：好，沒關係，這個是很嚴肅的。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，假設性的問題，如果是這種狀況之下，因為這個案子的聲請是在我們憲法訴訟法施行之前，所以按照我們憲法訴訟法第九十一條規定，他有一個特別的救濟程序，就是檢察總長得聲請……"],["謝委員龍介：就是提起非常上訴嘛！對不對？好。如果是這樣，這些死刑犯在判決確定之後，我們繼續把他羈押、關著，那麼把他關在監獄的法律依據是什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：判決確定之後，他就進入我們的收容程序，倒不是羈押程序。"],["謝委員龍介：收容啦？你說的是收容。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["謝委員龍介：若是這樣，現在收容跟羈押的期間是不一樣的？"],["黃次長謀信：不一樣，羈押是羈押，收容是收容。"],["謝委員龍介：他是收容嘛？好。法律有規定收容的期限是多久？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：有啦！"],["黃次長謀信：收容有收容程序；羈押有羈押的程序。"],["謝委員龍介：收容可以多久？收容可以收容多久啦？刑事訴訟法沒有啦，但是妥速審判法怎麼會沒有呢？"],["黃次長謀信：妥速審判法，那是羈押程序。"],["謝委員龍介：司法院就說了，收容就5年而已，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：那是羈押最長的期間，那是羈押，妥速審判法在處理羈押的問題。"],["謝委員龍介：這些人都被關超過5年了，對不對？是不是這樣？"],["黃次長謀信：剛剛委員提的妥速審判法是在講羈押程序的最長期限，不是收容。"],["謝委員龍介：我之前問蔡部長的時候，我有跟他說，如果宣告違憲，死刑犯很有可能會放出來，當時還有我們本會的委員說怎麼可能啦！憲法是說沒有違法而已，又不是說判無罪啦！所以這些人如果放出來，我就是覺得這個很嚴重。部長，會放出來嗎？若是死刑違憲，這些人依法要放出來嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：應該還是在收容的程序。"],["謝委員龍介：還在收容，繼續收容，收容期限只有五年而已，這些人都已經超過五年了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個收容是沒有期限的，剛才講的是妥速審判法羈押的最長期限。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你講，因為他現在發回要重新判決，就表示他還沒判決確定，視為撤銷羈押，對不對？是不是這樣？法院是不是要把這個被告釋放？他變成被告而已，次長，這樣這些人是不是都超過五年了？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，你剛剛講的妥速審判法，其實是在講羈押最長期限的限制問題。"],["謝委員龍介：所以你確定不會放？不會放？"],["黃次長謀信：因為他已經……"],["謝委員龍介：若死刑違憲，這37個都不會放出來？你不敢說？會釋放嗎？不然的話你跟我說不會啊！這很嚴重啦！我覺得這些大法官「食飯坩中央」，所以我希望他在指引裡面寫清楚，如果在指引裡面寫不清楚，社會會面對到這個問題，這些人是要放出來的。部長，我跟你講頭很痛，不是不可能，因為大法官的認定、認知已經跟我們不一樣了，他也不用考慮民意，法務部要怎麼面對這個事情？你們這次在辯論的時候有提醒大法官嗎？你有提醒他，他在指引上面就會注意，你不要以為他們都很厲害，以為他們都會想很多，不可能，這是有可能放出來的，請部長思考一下，防患於未然，因為這麼做，到時候社會的壓力會變成在你們身上，你瞭解之後再以書面答復本席，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們就用書面來說明。"],["謝委員龍介：好，用書面答復本席。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關這個部分我們會再用書面說明。"],["謝委員龍介：你瞭解清楚，在死刑違憲的情形下，我們後面的因應，以及這37個死刑犯釋放的可能做法，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再來做書面說明。"],["謝委員龍介：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。部長，我上次跟鍾佳濱召委有去參加劍青檢改的活動，其實我和鍾佳濱召委兩個是非常支持法務部還有基層檢察官，所以我們不是找基層檢察官的麻煩，我們真的很希望為基層檢察官多做一點事情。戰國時候韓非子說：奉法者強，則國強，這也是法務部這次公益月曆上面所引用的，所以我一直覺得奉法者強，則國強、奉法者弱，則國弱，這是韓非子所說的一句話。我真的覺得部長可以替基層檢察官捍衛，千萬不要讓外面的任何力量來介入檢察官辦案，就像部裡面也不應該逼檢察官把扣案的證物發還一樣，這是不應該的，當事人可以聲請發還，但絕對不應該由法務部下令要求檢察官把扣案證物發還，我不是說這次的個案，話說到這裡就好，謝謝部長。","下一位請鍾佳濱召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-36","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳玉珍","葉元之","翁曉玲","沈發惠","傅崐萁","傅崐萁"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["202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我請內部長好 麻煩部長部長 老闆 辛苦先給你按一個讚不管是久安新班還是稀安晚班最好不談沒班"},{"start":41.383,"end":50.912,"text":"這案件為什麼很嚴重呢?因為這跟羅總統有關係啦。所以我在這裡很堅定羅清德總統,他說他要打擊歐金,對抗歐金,對抗貪污暴斃。我那一天,上禮拜二在總結社會上跟導演說,因為不是你的業務啦,所以你沒有在現場。"},{"start":65.1,"end":85.993,"text":"我講若是過去被當的高雄高級及到英台內閣是沒有關係的但是若是在現在的內閣裡面若是沒有班就變成保庇這對一個法務部長的簽名來說是很嚴重所以修昇本席在這裡先給你按一個讚就是說堅定有什麼剛才在講鄧文成這個案件沒有班不可以"},{"start":95.334,"end":123.323,"text":"這個案件收集那一天收集那一天就對了大陸聖殿總統在台南市要起來做行政議長的時候他剛在一個禮拜前他就說他做行政議長之後要解決有缺啦欠錢欠電欠土地因為很多台商火流需要很多土地我投行的水火流順便空了"},{"start":124.465,"end":133.927,"text":"他要創造很多土地所以你若是沒有辦好清措會變成當機時的羅清廷議長是不是比較明顯有高潔作為這是依照他的情形 從而落去、延伸出來的一個開發案所以本席在這裡 針對這個案件是把你們勤奮也把羅總統勤奮 但是會很辛苦 也會有很多壓力"},{"start":155.816,"end":165.863,"text":"你如果不讓這個檢察官批局做他們的課程,我坦白說,這搞不好他會像氣球一樣,整個會小風雨,這樣就翁徽、蛇火在牽著你。不然我也要在這裡心中跟你說,事實上,當局誤金、當局犯罪,"},{"start":181.345,"end":183.446,"text":"我現在要請教你一個問題"},{"start":209.5,"end":216.206,"text":"這個沒有通知?這個是要尊重這個事實法院、這個憲法法庭的...是啊,因為7月23嘛,他可以演兩個月嘛"},{"start":237.369,"end":239.81,"text":"三個月來七月二日就夠了啊啊我們的秘書長有什麼動作沒機會輸啊"},{"start":263.729,"end":265.969,"text":"我們一定要對整個判決的結果,因為我們對判決怎麼樣我們不清楚。"},{"start":292.458,"end":312.295,"text":"國中的法國是危險、不危險、否則是部分危險,你們都有因應之稱嗎?這個我們一定會做一個及早的因應,但是這個我們要隨著一個來做一個...如果說選舉,選舉的私刑是合憲,如果這樣依照執行私刑的規定,37個私刑犯"},{"start":319.454,"end":323.435,"text":"這部份我們還會照依照我們執行、實行的相關的一個的規定,我們來做一個檢視。"},{"start":337.422,"end":366.295,"text":"怎麼挑選這個執行的對象?這是個案的一個...這是個案?沒有啊,執行的對象...這個執行...因為我們這個有一個一套的一個很縝密的一個規定...因為你要看...就是他的...他是不是還可以繼續救濟嘛?他如果說有...還有在...一個申請一個救濟,或者一個身體有一個...已經沒有了嘛,待會兒說完以後這裡...他們的案子都沒有了,其實是說他是不是有信心重礙嘛?"},{"start":368.285,"end":371.068,"text":"你怎麼走啦?因為這個權益是你的啊!權益你的嘛!對不對?你總是要有一個...37歲要先長大一下啊!你要有一個大...這社會基台很多耶!"},{"start":388.484,"end":408.032,"text":"這個我們有頒布一個那個執行死刑規則跟審核死刑案件的執行所以要點你沒有一些規定我們會用這個規定來做一個審核你知不知道大法官在這次我不知道你有派人去辯論但是辯論那時候不是你做保證嘛你知不知道他辯論的規定裡面他把那個私刑判決的定數"},{"start":413.021,"end":433.603,"text":"是否要經濟變好,以及在原始辯論的平衡一致,還有包括他是不是針對他信心重大,有去把法治行政部份列作辯論的重點在這方面,你覺得有這件事情嗎?"},{"start":437.26,"end":445.524,"text":"委員好,因為這個有列入這個辯論的內容,但是那個比較不是重點,是所在啦。就有關於身心障礙我們的答案是,那個是個案審查。好,沒關係啦,我要問你,你先說,你等一下。"},{"start":466.673,"end":490.684,"text":"所以大法官就對了他有可能認定施行的制度是違憲啦那就是說有可能認定施行的制度是合憲啦 都有可能啦但是呢目前這37個施行犯的審理來得到處大概都沒有正式鑑定啦目前啦 現況啦"},{"start":495.12,"end":500.824,"text":"在這裡是說他在第三期的時候沒聘任就輸了這三十幾個你這樣也沒辦法輸辯論用這三項總要給你雙個說這樣危險啦會這樣嗎?"},{"start":514.231,"end":535.309,"text":"這個我沒辦法做預判你請你回答,因為你之前不是沒有,你不夠了解不過這個是因為會不會相對違憲,並不是我們現在可以預見的那有沒有當時出庭陳述意見,跟這一件應該是沒什麼關係再來,如果台灣官員選擇死刑是危險的,而且是已經過的定數不完畢"},{"start":536.63,"end":545.804,"text":"來認為是違憲：若如此目前這37個私刑犯是否可以拿到徽章上所要求重新審理"},{"start":550.396,"end":572.604,"text":"這部我請那個...沒關係這正檢証呢?各位報告如果...不是假設性的問題啦齁如果是這種狀況之下因為這個案子他申請是在我們憲法輸入法實行之前所以按照我們憲法輸入法九十一條規定他有一個特別的救濟程序就是要...假總長得申請這個...得提起負償上訴嘛對不對?好來阿如果這樣這個司法院齁他在判決決定之後啦齁"},{"start":581.755,"end":606.037,"text":"法律確定之後,他就進入我們的收容程序,倒不是羈養程序。喔,收容啊。你說的收容。對。啊,如果這樣,我們現在收容跟羈養期間是不同的?還不一樣。羈養是羈養,收容是收容。他是收容嘛。對。好啦,法律有規定說收容的期限多久?沒有。"},{"start":607.506,"end":631.652,"text":"有啦他收容程序,羈押,羈押有羈押的程序羞庸啦,羞庸可以多久啦羞庸可以羞庸多久啦沒有,不是收容程序啊像是訴訟法沒有啦對但是,妥適審判法怎麼沒有呢妥適審判法那是羈押程序對,那是羈押程序司法院說羞庸五年對不對"},{"start":635.388,"end":655.305,"text":"那是羈押,那是羈押,最長期的那是羈押律師長要把他處理羈押的問題對不對,這裡的人都管校規五檔,是不是這樣?剛剛委員提的是,徒訴長法是在講這個羈押程序的最長期我之前問創部長的時候,我有跟他說啊,卡蘇納酸更危險,私刑案件有可能會放出來"},{"start":657.352,"end":670.997,"text":"很可能會被綁起來當然還有本會的委員說很可能啦那件事是說沒違法而已 但是判沒罪啦 對不對所以這些人若是被綁起來 我這就是覺得很嚴重啦不一定會被綁起來啦若是私刑違憲啦 這些人違法要被綁起來沒有啦"},{"start":685.659,"end":706.137,"text":"應該還是在收容的一個程序吧?還在收容?繼續收容?收容就五年而已啊!這個人就都超過五年啊!那個收容是沒有期限,那個是剛才講是妥適審判完那個羈押的一個最長的期限。我告訴你,因為他現在發揮要重新判官嘛!就表示他還沒判多一點嘛,是為這個撤銷羈押嘛!對不對?是不是這樣?阿方,他是不是要把這個筆局釋放啊?"},{"start":714.684,"end":716.485,"text":"他變做比革娘咧?處長這樣這裡的人是不是都超過五年了啦?各位報告,剛剛講的那個你講的妥恕手段法,他其實是在講羈押的最長期限制的問題所以你肯定不會綁?不會綁?市府啦,有他現這37個都不會綁?"},{"start":746.519,"end":774.913,"text":"你不跟我說?會受訪嗎?沒有你跟我說嗎?這很嚴重,我跟你們說我感覺這台法官吃飯卡中風我希望他在基因裡面才有清楚在基因裡面才沒有清楚社會的面對這個問題"},{"start":777.438,"end":791.584,"text":"這些人是要放出來的,沒有對我講的頭痛,不是不可能的,因為大法官他的臉頸就已經看我們都不一樣,他說也不用看客戶的民意,法務部要怎麼面對這個事情就對了"},{"start":802.031,"end":825.812,"text":"你這次派去辯論的時候,有沒有跟大法官提倡?你如果把提倡在執運頂頭的主委,你不能當作他們都很厲害嗎?當作他們都會受很多呢?不可能的,這是有可能放出來的,不對嗎?暑假的啦,風寒伊米蓮啦"},{"start":828.444,"end":829.745,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":858.527,"end":862.93,"text":"部長部長我上次跟宗家斌召委我們去那個參加那個艱辛減改的"},{"start":887.389,"end":899.502,"text":"的那個活動所以我跟莊大兵召委兩個是非常支持法務部還有基層檢察官所以其實我們不是說會找基層檢察官的麻煩我們真的是很希望為基層檢察官多做一點事情"},{"start":904.592,"end":932.35,"text":"那個戰國時候那個韓非子說奉法者強則國強這也是法務部這次的閱歷上面所引用的公義閱歷上面所引用的所以我一直覺得奉法者強則國強奉法者弱則國弱這是韓非子他所說的一句話那我真的覺得部長這可以替基層的檢察官捍衛希望不要讓外面的任何力量來介入檢察官辦案就像就像"},{"start":933.584,"end":952.324,"text":"部裡面也不應該逼檢察官把扣案的證物發還這是不應該的當事人可以申請發還但絕對不應該由法務部來下令要求檢察官把扣案證物發還我不是說這一次的個案話說到這裡就好"}]}},{"id":"154606","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154606","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8a0c818b0971db6f82652beeb573fd6de90a5faf2fa6890fc46d6c6507aabb8eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:23:55 - 09:40:25","影片長度":"00:16:30","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會、財政部率所屬相關單位列席就「盤點公私部門合作營運模式法制爭議之探究與改善」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:23:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T09:40:25+08:00","duration":990,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第36次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":36,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-36"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":249,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時23分）對不起喔，主席，在開始詢答以前，作為司法及法制委員會的一員，我想要在程序上面先跟主席確認一些事情，請主席多包涵。第一個，我尊重召委的職權，但我也希望召委能夠尊重司法及法制委員會的委員，司法及法制委員會要怎麼運作，邀請機關的代表來，機關的代表就他所職掌的事項回答立法委員針對人民所關心的事情加以質詢，這個是本院各個委員會的常態，我相信不用我說啦，也不需要當立法委員才知道，我們在場有非常多的媒體朋友，甚至在網路上面關心立法院運作的公民，大概都可以印證我剛剛所說的並沒有錯。但我現在要請教主席的事情是，在剛剛會議詢問的階段，我不希望有誤會啦，召委有要限制今天個別立委在會議中詢答過程的主題嗎？召委有要干預、有要限制嗎？"],["主席：沒有，我剛剛已經講的很清楚，我說長久以來沒有這種事情嘛，所以我剛剛不是講鍾召委這麼多年下來應該看得很清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝、謝謝。召委，我相信你也不會等一下會議詢答到一半以後你人跑掉，剝奪其他委員的質詢權吧？"],["主席：當然不會啊！我不會這樣。"],["黃委員國昌：當然不會嘛，好，非常感謝召委。來，有請法務部部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：部長早。對於我們前海基會董事長鄭文燦貪污受賄的事情，全體國民都很關心，大家在質疑的是，現在螢幕上這張照片右手邊的廖俊松，送錢的被收押了；左手邊遞上一個「好彩頭」的是鄭文燦，當時桃園市市長跑去參加華亞園區的地主座談會，選前黃金週還跑去參加，並遞給他一個「好彩頭」啊！還去跟地主搏感情！好，昨天我問了行政院院長卓榮泰，我說早就查到金流也有監聽譯文的貪污案，為什麼過了七年才開始偵辦？當初參與處理的一些檢調人員不是被調職就是被施壓，沒有辦法辦這個案子。昨天卓榮泰院長的回復是什麼？我覺得他的回復還算中肯，社會上大家難免有相同的想法，我今天看早上的早報，卓榮泰院長也說，如果涉有不法，要全面偵辦。部長，贊不贊成院長所表達的這個態度？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們尊重院長的一個意見。"],["黃委員國昌：尊重院長的意見？所以對於院長的意見，你只是尊重？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是報載的消息，我想這個……"],["黃委員國昌：我簡單這樣講，涉及到貪腐的弊案，我們總統賴清德不是說，肅貪是目前政府重要的工作。部長，你贊不贊成？還是你也尊重賴總統的講法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：肅貪是我們全力要去執行的……"],["黃委員國昌：好，很好！如果肅貪是我們全力要偵辦的工作的話，現在社會大眾就有個問題嘛，這件事情鄭文燦一個人幹得來嗎？要不要全面的徹查、全面的清辦？請教部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在桃檢在偵辦中了，我想如果社會有提供任何一些告發或新的情況，我想桃園地檢署會一併來處理及瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我覺得你不要大小眼啦！臺南那11槍的事情，我看媒體報導說你震怒啊，下令徹查嚴辦，奇怪了，怎麼遇到民進黨的大官貪污，講話就這麼保守，尊重桃園地檢署，從法務部的立場，要不要徹查嚴辦？往上偵辦有沒有底線？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分是證據到哪裡我們就辦到哪裡。"],["黃委員國昌：好！我請教部長，螢幕上這個是我把整個時間軸全部都整理出來了，2017年9月的時候收了錢，收錢以後，鄭文燦很認真，收錢是有辦事的，馬上親自主持會議，他親自主持會議做了什麼事？來，我再跟部長講一下，他提供貼心的服務啊！山坡地解編我來處理，最大的地主，那個寺廟我也來出面處理；第三個最重要的，我要跟行政院爭取把你們這邊的農地核定為國家重大建設，目的是什麼？鄭文燦還很貼心的交代，這裡面9.12公頃記得要納入。這個會議資料不是我偽造變造的，我等一下質詢完之後會提供給所有的媒體朋友參考，收了錢以後有沒有辦事？有辦事，很認真，但問題是什麼？這個事情鄭文燦一個人辦得出來嗎？要跟我們的國家爭取納入啊，欸，這個很重要，要成為國家重大建設啊，以後要變更地目的時候才會好變更嘛！結果我們這位送錢的人，處理完了鄭文燦以後處理誰？馬上跟總統府陳情，在向總統府陳情了以後，來，請部長看清楚，這也不是我偽造變造的，是有蓋印章的，時任總統府秘書長的吳釗燮馬上下條子，開頭就是「俊松理事長惠鑒」，俊松理事長是誰？就是現在被收押的廖俊松啦！它寫的是「俊松理事長惠鑒：12月4日致總統府函及附件，看完了以後已經交代行政院去做了」。這個是2017年12月12號總統府秘書長的總統府用箋，總統府也沒有騙這位廖俊松，馬上交代下去，交代下去給誰？行政院秘書長，行政院秘書長速度很快喔，12月14號馬上交代下去，秘書長卓榮泰的章就蓋在下面，拿到卓榮泰蓋章的回函以後，這位廖俊松馬上轉交出去，你看文件上「弟廖俊松」後押的日期是12月19號啊，這要遞給誰？遞給鄭市長說：市長，我們要爭取把它納入國家重大建設，我去找了總統府，總統府也交代了行政院，行政院秘書長卓榮泰也回函了，我跟你回報，下面還有他親自簽名啦！鄭市長，這些事情我都做了。在臺灣啊，為什麼很多年輕人痛恨權貴？有權有勢的人有關係好辦事，什麼叫有關係好辦事？他們跟一般公民不一樣啊！找完了總統、找完了行政院，行政院交代下去，經濟部、內政部馬上就核准，火速核准！","2017年年底，處理完了總統府跟行政院以後，經濟部、內政部馬上核准，表示：沒有問題，這個地方很重要，我們馬上依照都市計畫法第二十七條第一項第三款的規定，配合國家經濟建設。根據都市計畫法第二十七條第一項第三款，這就是要件嘛！今天內政部的代表在這邊，應該也很清楚。誰可以核？經濟部說這個好棒棒，內政部也說這個好棒棒，上面交代下來的嘛！核完了以後變怎麼樣？上面都已經交代下來了，還有什麼問題？來，馬上就核下去了嘛！","2019年4月，申請的機關是誰？我手上這本是桃園市政府提給內政部的計畫。桃園市政府提給內政部什麼計畫？請部長仔細看，左手邊的圖是2014年以前搞了好久搞不動的。為什麼搞不動？要把農業區變成特定專用區，哇！這個茲事體大，還有寺廟、還要遷葬，茲事體大！沒有關係啦，我們的鄭文燦市長都出面幫你處理好了，最大的地主他也來處理、中央他也來處理，非常地賣命！臺灣社會為什麼讓人詬病說「有關係就沒關係」？這個廖俊松關係很好啊！除了找鄭文燦，送他500萬，還找上我們中央政府！","現在請部長再注意看右手邊的圖，因為我們是法律人，講話要有憑有據。圖中不僅是那個9.12公頃，連旁邊更大的全部都劃進來。一開始是9公頃，後來胃口越來越大，9公頃不夠啦！要幾公頃？要50公頃！50公頃才夠看，9公頃算什麼啊？結果呢？大家看一下桃園市政府提出來的計畫，50公頃的農地變什麼？變成第二種產業專用區和第五種住宅區。哇！點石成金啊！本來在那邊沒有辦法開發、沒有辦法用的地，有權有勢的人廖俊松一出面，從地方到中央，一條龍服務，變更成什麼？大家看一下，農業區變更成第二種產業專用區和第五種住宅區！鄭文燦點石成金，非常地厲害！我就覺得很奇怪，這些事情、這些東西檢調不知道嗎？還是檢調知道了，沒有辦法辦？為什麼沒有辦法辦？兩個人非常「麻吉」啊！事情發生的時候，邱太三本來是鄭文燦的副市長，他出任法務部部長的時候，鄭文燦給他最大的祝福，結果呢？我們邱太三跟那個時候桃園地檢署的檢察長……","這是我2019年在立法院追的案子。我最痛恨司法關說！幹過法務部部長的人敢去關說司法！結果那時候邱太三雖然一下子就下台，但是一轉過身，我們的蔡政府又重用他，讓他出任陸委會的主委。另外一個叫彭坤業，兩個人在「大車輪」吃日本料理，施壓、幫富商逃漏稅。","針對外界所質疑的，當初為什麼沒有辦法辦？約談也沒有辦法約談？有沒有人洩密？鄭文燦怎麼知道那些監聽譯文，才匆匆忙忙趕快把錢還回去？法務部這邊開始調查了沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這是有關案情的部分，桃園地檢署都會一併來瞭解、處理。"],["黃委員國昌：真的嗎？桃園地檢署都會一併瞭解、處理？從2017年瞭解到2024年哦？從2017年瞭解到2024年，做為我們法務部的大家長，對於我們的檢調辦案辦得這麼辛苦、面臨到這麼大的壓力，部長要不要給他們打打氣，說：不要害怕任何權貴，部長當你的靠山，向上偵辦，不管牽涉到誰，辦到底！部長有沒有這樣的氣魄？"],["鄭部長銘謙：本來檢察官辦案就是證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡。"],["黃委員國昌：是嗎？喔！好、好、好，因為我們司法及法制委員會剛好有一個受害人叫吳宗憲召委，他當過檢察官，檢察官辦案是不是想辦到哪裡就辦到哪裡，還是辦一辦，辦不下去了？可能下一棒吳宗憲委員上來質詢的時候，你有更多好的經驗可以跟部長交流。因為剛剛部長告訴全體國人的是說，檢察官要辦，沒有壓力啦，要辦到哪裡都可以。但是對這件事情，部長，我很希望你說的理想能在臺灣社會成真！您說的理想，我很希望在臺灣社會成真！我很希望臺灣社會有一天，我們的政府、我們的法務部部長夠清明、夠擔當，跟我們的全體基層檢察官、跟全體的基層調查員講：掃除貪瀆不法，部長給你最大的靠山，不管辦到誰，誰敢施壓，我部長第一個跳出來。我希望部長有這個肩膀！"],["主席：黃委員，我想部長的意思是說他以後絕對會挺啦！那以前的部長挺不挺，我們心裡都很清楚啦！"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好。"],["主席：但是部長剛剛跟我們講，他以後就會挺基層檢察官辦案，不受政治干預嘛！對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：應該是尊重檢察官的偵辦，因為我們沒辦法去……"],["主席：部長，我相信你一定會挺將來所有的檢察官、調查官、廉政官好好地辦這些政治人物的案子，我想你一定會挺下去，不會像我們當年那樣子嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：辦案本來就是不分黨派，有證據就辦到哪裡……"],["主席：你剛剛不是跟黃國昌委員這樣說嗎？我相信你絕對是這樣子的人啦！我們也都非常的期待。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，剛剛你講的如果是真的，那我就簡單問一個事嘛！你講的如果是真的，怎麼會出現邱太三跟彭坤業在大車輪日本料理密商完了以後，回去施壓基層檢察官的事？這個事你不會沒聽說吧？社會鬧得這麼大，你不會沒聽說吧？基層檢察官受不了了，才在檢察官論壇爆發嘛！怎麼會沒有施壓？沒有施壓的話，這個是什麼？是我們做夢夢到的嗎？千真萬確的事情啊！部長，我希望這件事情不要只是消極的，說這個桃園地檢署、桃園地檢署如何如何。檢察官獨立辦案我絕對尊重，但是當初誰在阻撓檢察官辦案？為什麼那些要辦的調查員不是自動請調或被請調，不然就是被清算？做為法務部的大家長，我給部長的建議是要去瞭解，要不然你剛剛所想的那個夢想是不會實現的。謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，部長請回座。","下一位請謝龍介委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-36","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","黃國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把整個時間軸全部整理出來"},{"start":314.738,"end":343.319,"text":"2017年9月的時候收了錢收了錢以後鄭文燦很認真收錢是有辦事的馬上親自主持會議親自主持會議做了什麼事來我再跟部長講一下提供貼心的服務山坡地解編我來處理最大的地主每個寺廟我也來出面處理第三個最重要的我要跟行政院爭取"},{"start":344.264,"end":366.501,"text":"你們這邊的這個農地啊我要爭取核定為國家重大建設目的是什麼這文章還很貼心的交代這裡面9.12公頃記得要納入記得要納入這個會議資料不是我偽造變造的我等一下質詢完我會提供給所有的媒體朋友參考"},{"start":367.688,"end":391.984,"text":"收了錢以後有沒有辦事有辦事很冷靜的但問題是什麼這個事情鄭文燦一個人辦得出來嗎要跟我們的國家爭取納入啊這個很重要啊要整個國家壯大建設啊以後要變更地木的時候才會好變更嘛結果我們這位送錢的人喔處理完了鄭文燦以後處理誰啊"},{"start":394.385,"end":416.123,"text":"馬上跟總統府陳情啦!總統府陳情完了以後來請部長看清楚喔!這也不是我偽造變造有蓋印章的啊!時任總統府的秘書長吳釗燮啊!馬上下條子!峻松理事長會見!峻松理事長是誰?就現在被收押的廖峻松啊!峻松理事長會見啊!你12月4號次總統府韓籍復建"},{"start":419.471,"end":426.304,"text":"我看完了以後我已經交代什麼我交代行政院去做了這個是2027年12月12號總統府秘書長他的總統府用簽"},{"start":433.062,"end":451.275,"text":"那總統府也沒有騙這位廖俊松啊馬上交代下去啊交代下去給誰行政院秘書長啊行政院秘書長速度很快啊12月14號的時候馬上交代給行政院秘書長秘書長卓榮泰的章啊蓋在下面"},{"start":452.571,"end":477.319,"text":"拿到了卓榮泰的章了以後啊這位廖峻松啊馬上遞廖峻松12月19號押的日期啊遞給誰遞給鄭市長說市長我們要爭取把他納入國家重大建設我去找了總統府總統府也交代了行政院行政院的秘書長卓榮泰也回函了我跟你回報"},{"start":478.619,"end":502.097,"text":"下面還要親自的簽名啊欸 鎮市長這些事情我都做了在台灣啊為什麼很多年輕人痛恨權貴啊有權有勢的人有關係好辦事什麼叫有關係好辦事他們跟一般的公民不一樣啊找完了總統找完了行政院行政院交代下去來看一下"},{"start":503.674,"end":526.704,"text":"經濟部、內政部馬上就核准火速核准啦2017年年底處理完了總統府跟行政院以後經濟部、內政部馬上核准沒有問題這個地方很重要我們馬上依照都市計畫法27條第一項第三款的規定配合國家經濟建設嘛"},{"start":528.322,"end":555.403,"text":"都市計劃法27條第一項第三款這就是要件嘛我想今天內政部的代表在這邊應該也很清楚嘛誰可以合經濟部說這個好棒棒內政部也說這個好棒棒上面交代下來的嘛合完了以後變怎麼樣上面都已經交代下來了各位想要問題來馬上就合下去了嘛2019年4月"},{"start":558.666,"end":580.866,"text":"我手上這一本2019年4月申請的機關是誰桃園市政府提給內政部的計畫桃園市政府提給內政部什麼計畫來請部長仔細看左手邊的圖啊是搞了好久2014年以前搞了好久搞不動的他為什麼搞不動"},{"start":582.23,"end":610.604,"text":"你要把農業區變成特定專用區哇 這個知識體大還有寺廟還要簽帳知識體大沒有關係啊我們的鄭文燦市長都出面了大家處理好啊處理好了最大的地主他也來處理中央他也來處理非常的賣命啊非常的賣命啊台灣社會為什麼跟人家詬病有關係就沒關係啊"},{"start":611.853,"end":635.246,"text":"這個廖俊松關係很好啊除了找鄭文燦送他五百萬還找上我們中央政府來右手邊來再請部長注意看因為我們是法律人啊講話要有憑有據啊馬上右手邊不僅是那個9.12公頃啊9.12公頃連旁邊更大的全部都劃進來"},{"start":637.028,"end":666.126,"text":"一開始是9公頃後來胃口越來越大9公頃不夠啦我們要幾公頃我們要50公頃50公頃才夠看9公頃算什麼啊結果咧 來看一下這個是桃園市政府提出來的計畫50公頃的農地變什麼第二產業專用區啊第五種住宅區啊哇點石成金啊"},{"start":667.082,"end":686.715,"text":"本來在那邊沒有辦法開發沒有辦法用的地有權有勢的人廖俊松一出面從地方到中央一條龍服務網一條龍服務網變更成什麼來看一下農業區變更成第二種產業用區"},{"start":689.861,"end":715.201,"text":"第五種住宅區啊鄭文燦點石成金啊非常的厲害啊非常的厲害啊我就覺得很奇怪這些事情這些東西這些事情這些東西檢調不知道嗎檢調不知道嗎還是檢調知道了沒有辦法辦為什麼沒有辦法辦兩個人就八幾個啊"},{"start":718.627,"end":743.037,"text":"事情發生的時候鄭文燦、邱泰山出任法務部部長的時候本來是鄭文燦的副市長啊給他最大的祝福啊結果呢我們的邱泰山跟那個時候桃園地檢署的檢察長這個是我2019年在立法院追的案子我最痛恨司法關說啊法務部部長幹過法務部部長的人敢去關說司法"},{"start":744.509,"end":768.337,"text":"結果那時候邱泰山雖然一下子下台但是什麼轉身一過我們的蔡政府又重用出任陸委會的主委另外一個叫彭坤業兩個人在大車輪日本料理吃日本料理施壓幫富商逃漏稅針對外界所質疑的當初為什麼沒有辦法辦約談也沒有辦法約談有沒有人洩密"},{"start":772.635,"end":780.719,"text":"鄭文燦怎麼知道那些監聽議員匆匆忙忙趕快把錢還回去法務部這邊開始調查了沒有我想這個是有關你案情的一個部分桃園地檢署都會一併來瞭解處理真的嗎桃園地檢署都會一併瞭解處理從2017年瞭解到2024年2017年瞭解到2024年"},{"start":798.208,"end":817.433,"text":"作為我們法務部的大家長對於我們的檢調辦案辦得這麼辛苦面臨到這麼大的壓力部長要不要給他們打打氣說不要害怕任何權貴部長當你的靠山向上申辦不管牽涉到誰辦到底部長"},{"start":818.584,"end":834.71,"text":"有沒有這樣的氣魄本來檢察官辦案就是證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡因為我剛好我們司法法制委員會有個受害人叫吳宗憲召委他當過檢察官檢察官是不是辦案想辦到哪裡就辦到哪裡還是辦一辦"},{"start":835.67,"end":864.042,"text":"拜不下去了可能下一棒吳宗憲委員上來質詢的時候你有更多阿好的經驗可以跟部長交流因為剛剛部長告訴全體國人的是說檢察官要辦沒有壓力啦要辦哪裡都可以但我對這件事情部長你說的理想我很希望在台灣社會成真您說的理想我很希望在台灣社會成真我很希望台灣社會有一天我們的政府"},{"start":865.256,"end":882.207,"text":"我們的法務部部長夠親民、夠擔當跟我們全體的基層檢察官跟全體的基層調查員講掃除貪賭不法部長給你最大的靠山不管辦到誰誰敢施壓我部長第一個跳出來我希望部長有這個肩膀"},{"start":883.908,"end":909.443,"text":"我想部長的意思是說他以後絕對會挺啦那以前的部長挺不挺我們心裡都很清楚啦但是部長剛剛跟我們講他以後就會挺基層檢察官辦案然後不受政治干預嘛對不對部長我相信你一定會挺將來所有的檢察官、調查官、廉政官好好的辦這些政治人物的案子我想你一定會挺下去不會像我們當年那樣子嘛"},{"start":913.589,"end":933.68,"text":"你剛不是跟黃國昌委員這樣說嗎?我相信你絕對是這樣子的人啊。我們也都非常的期待。部長,剛你講的如果是真的,那我就簡單問一個事嘛。你講的如果是真的,怎麼會出現邱派山跟彭坤業在大車輪日本料理密山玩的又回去施壓基層檢察官的事?這件事你不會沒聽說吧?"},{"start":936.542,"end":958.326,"text":"社會鬧得這麼大你不會沒聽說吧基層檢察官受不了了才在檢察官論壇爆發嘛怎麼會沒有施壓沒有施壓這個是什麼是我們做夢夢到的嗎千真萬確的事情啊我希望這件事情部長不要只是消極的這個討厭地檢署討厭地檢署檢察官獨立辦案我絕對尊重但是當初誰在阻擾檢察官辦案"},{"start":964.333,"end":985.384,"text":"誰在阻擾檢察官辦案為什麼那些要辦的調查員不是自動請調還是被請調要不然就是被清算作為法務部的大家長我給部長的建議是要去了解要不然你剛剛所想的那個夢想不會實現謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154605","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154605","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f880ea7f93910ab462ca0ece664f026f7b90a5faf2fa6890fc73ed662baa63b46f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:58:06 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10:11:30","影片長度":"00:13:24","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:58:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:11:30+08:00","duration":804,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":303,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時58分）謝謝主席，有請核安會主委、經濟部次長、國發會簡任技正以及台電董事長備詢。"],["主席：請這四個單位，謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：今天國民黨召委排審核子反應器設置管制法可以說是用心良苦，希望所有的人及在座各位官員都能夠體會。","首先請教主委，我們看今天核安會的報告，似乎是採取敬表尊重並不反對的態度。主委，我們是不是可以就此定錨？敬表尊重並不反對就是核安會對於核電廠延役的立場是嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：報告裡面只有「敬表尊重」。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以現在反對嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：就是尊重。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒有關係，現在還是在反對與不反對之間嘛！我們之前已經提過薛丁格狀態，沒有關係，如果7月27號停機，我們的電力減少了，如果真的再發生大跳電，在座的四位有沒有人要負責下臺？有沒有人願意負責下臺？"],["連次長錦漳：我要看……"],["葛委員如鈞：你要下臺嗎？次長。"],["連次長錦漳：不是，我是說誰該負的責任就應該……"],["葛委員如鈞：誰該負？總不可能沒有人該負責任吧！沒有關係，我已經預期到你們的反應了，董事長，您可以請回，其實您有可能要負責任，但既然你沒有要負責任，你就先回去吧，謝謝！","核安會昨天上午10點前以電子郵件送了今天的報告，下午5點又送了一份修正報告，不比對還好，一比對才發現越寫越倒退，把肯定委員考量國內能源需求以及若國家能源政策確定核電延役等等這一類立場比較傾向延役的句子都刪除就算了，最後還把延役需要的時程從國際經驗2到3年修正成，依我國核電廠基礎狀況估計需要3到5年，甚至到剛剛說法又變了，次長，你剛剛是不是又說要改成5到10年啊？我們這個時間可以這樣子亂跳嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：報告委員，剛才講的是檢查要5年，但是如果要再重置的話，有一些興建期或有一些要處理的問題，等到弄好之後有可能會到10年。"],["葛委員如鈞：我替你解釋啦，你們就是在算賴清德總統任期結束的時候啦！他可能還想要續任嘛，算一算8年，到時候萬一要開機怎麼辦，是這樣嗎？是用這種數學在算的嗎？我們這種科學的事情可以用這樣的數學在算嗎？","所以我們來看一些事實、看一些科學，好不好？在近年的國際局勢影響之下，我們鄰近的日本、韓國都加入了重啟核電的行列，日本九州電力公司川內核電廠1號機7月3號屆滿40年運轉期，直接從7月4號正式展開延役；日本高濱核電廠19個小時以前公告了，從40年的年限延長到加20年，直接延役！請問為什麼日本可以做，我們不能做？可不可以回答？有沒有研究他們怎麼做到的？為什麼他們不用花2到10年來檢查，為什麼他們不用？可不可以說明啊？我們用的核電不一樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：報告委員，這個案子我們會來研究一下，但是我跟委員報告，我們原來的執照是給定40年，依照法定的程序，停機之後如果要延役，我們必須做安全檢查，然後才可以……"],["葛委員如鈞：那為什麼他們不用檢查？他們罔顧人民性命嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分我要瞭解一下。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒有關係，你今天才開始瞭解，什麼時候瞭解完？今天之前都不用瞭解嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我沒有注意到這個新聞……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒有注意，謝謝，這是我們協作的部分。","那我再給你一個新聞，老實說，你們作為核安會沒有注意這些新聞！沒關係，我們就事論事，義大利7月1號也向歐盟提交新版的國家能源與氣候計畫案，預估2050年全國發電量至少11%來自核能，象徵義大利歷經34年的非核政策以後正式重啟核能發電。這個新聞有沒有注意到？有嘛，為什麼人家可以就這樣走了？為什麼我們都可以逆向而行？臺灣的核電跟別人的核電都不一樣嗎？你說我們的環境不同，我們跟日本環境很像啊！","我們今天在這裡其實就是希望，我們不要只是喊說我們在AI世界的中心，但是我們卻有可能成為缺電的中心，這完全兜不起來！科技巨頭都非常關心電力的穩定，但我們看到的是什麼？各種踢皮球的狀態，然後我們的賴總統左擁右抱，一邊是能源政策九彎十八拐、修正再修正的郭部長；另外一邊總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會從反核轉向挺核的童子賢副召集人，大家一搭一唱，忙著唱一部民進黨與非核家園有緣無分的大戲，一直說不是不愛、只是迫於無奈啊！520到現在，兩手策略讓民眾看的一頭霧水，現在我們在討論核電廠延役的時候，還是說得不清不楚，說國外的狀況沒有研究。","今天我們5個草案其實方向都是一致的，我們溫情喊話聲聲催，行政院充耳不聞，院長甚至抱著神主牌說這不是神主牌，說是心裡的理念，到現在還是沒有任何行政院的草案提出，甚至沒有建議版的文字。想請問核安會主委，您支持今天我們修法草案的方向嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我覺得行政院長已經說明，我們政府不會主動提出修法。"],["葛委員如鈞：但是您敬表尊重嘛，對不對？這4個字對吧？經濟部次長，您支持今天修法草案的方向嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：我們還是敬表尊重。"],["葛委員如鈞：您敬表尊重算是有修改立場，也是不錯啦，至少尊重，但我看你們郭部長還不只尊重，態度還有很多鬆動。請問國發會的鄭簡技，您支持我們今天修法草案的方向嗎？"],["鄭簡任技正永銘：……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們的神主牌換名字了，敬表尊重變成新的神主牌，那我們的非核家園神主牌算破除了嗎？沒關係，大家問到重點的時候就會停住，希望我們的電力不要這樣。","我想這個真的是很重要的問題，我們回顧過去民國91年核子反應器設施管制法的立法討論，當時負責說明法案的並不是經建會，而是核安會前身的原能會，那現在呢？有很多人又突然講，相關內容是國發會的責任，踢皮球踢來踢去，踢到國發會的門口了，國發會就簡技出來反應。我們體育也能踢球、文化也能踢球，我們現在經濟的核心──電力也在踢球，到底有什麼東西不是踢球的？會不會到最後又踢了一顆球，直接幫你們瞄準下一個目標啦，到最後假設我們的草案通過，我看你們這個球又要踢到氣候變遷委員會，是不是？到時候會不會又踢到氣候變遷委員會？我看我今天就是神預言了啦！如果今天大家都沒有什麼立場，講來講去就是敬表尊重，我覺得這樣真的是不夠負責任！","我想請教，剛剛也已經有非常多人詢問，這些準備你們到底有沒有做計算、到底要多少費用及多少時間？再給你們一個機會，有沒有估算過？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個安全檢查必須視個別機組的狀態，如果有零件要更換，那麼還需要更多的時間，所以這有一定的不確定性……"],["葛委員如鈞：那經費有沒有範圍？"],["陳主任委員東陽：經費可能要台電來說明。"],["連次長錦漳：因為這個經費就誠如剛才主委講的，要逐一下去檢視，才可以知道經費要怎麼編列。"],["葛委員如鈞：這真的是看起來……我們這邊是教文，我舉個例子，有點像小孩子明天就要上大學了，不知道他要唸幾年、也不知道他要多少學費，這真的是我們面對電力的作法嗎？","日本近年為了強化AI和晶片產業鏈的發展，非常積極和國際企業合作，廠商為了瞭解各國的環境適不適合，其實也會到當地參訪電廠，就本席瞭解，近期也有臺灣重點廠商到日本參訪核電廠。請問經濟部和國發會，日本是透過這樣的方式讓國際企業瞭解電力供應的穩定性，那我們呢？我們拿什麼來承諾穩定供電？我們有去參訪、我們有去瞭解嗎？剛剛還有人說沒有聽過這些消息，難道我們要用綠能概念股的股價成長趨勢來承諾穩定供電嗎？是這樣嗎？就是說，我們的綠能技術一片安詳、股價一片看好，是這樣嗎？我們用這個來承諾國際大廠我們有電嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：我們如果有重大投資一定是經過規劃、一定是穩定供電的。"],["葛委員如鈞：那剛剛說如果跳電、如果供電不穩定，誰要下臺？次長要下臺嗎？有人要負責嗎？","童子賢董事長最近又說了，現在我們的跨界良心，他說非核家園政策正在卡住臺灣，削弱我們晶片產業的競爭力，這也是我們許多關心能源議題人民的擔憂。今天國民黨主動出來，我們主動出來要破除什麼？我們今天多一張，我覺得我們不是煞車皮，國民黨不是煞車皮，我們是雷神之鎚，好不好！我們要來破除這個非核家園的神主牌，好不好？我們開大門、走大路、審法案，下臺階都搭好了，執政黨不要繼續陷賴總統於不義，把我們的賴總統塑造成左擁右抱、腳踏多條船的負心漢，我剛剛忘記按出我的雷神之鎚，雷神之鎚，畫個閃電，把我們的賴總統弄成這樣，真的是對的嗎？","同時，我要再強調，民進黨可以用卓院長近來最喜歡說的時空背景不同來回應嗎？當然不行，國會改革法案，我們提出跟過去相同的內容，民進黨反對的理由是時空背景不同，我們邀請總統來做國情報告，也是過去民進黨的主張，民進黨反對理由是什麼？時空背景不同，但是現在面對核電廠延役，各國都在擁抱核能，明顯就是時空背景不同，現在你們突然又不講啦！雙重標準，現在突然又時空背景相同了嗎？難怪童子賢形容臺灣對碳排的自我感覺過於良好，是集體處在夢遊的狀態。","各位官員不要再繼續裝睡下去，剛剛我問了很多問題，你們都停在那邊，也許真的是在夢遊啦！希望不是，希望稍後的逐條審查當中，各位可以清醒過來，我們理性務實地一起討論法案，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝各位，謝謝葛如鈞委員。接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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text":"我們原來的執照是給定40年,依照法定的程序,停機之後,如果要研議,我們必須做安全檢查,然後才可以...那為什麼他們不用檢查?他們罔顧人民性命嗎?這個部分我要了解一下。好,沒有關係。那你今天才開始了解,什麼時候了解完?今天之前都不用了解嗎?"},{"start":281.752,"end":287.738,"text":"我沒有注意到這個新聞沒有注意到謝謝這是我們協作的部分那我再給你一個新聞老實說你們作為核安會沒有注意這些新聞沒有關係這個我們就是論事"},{"start":300.803,"end":316.175,"text":"義大利7月1號也向歐盟提交新版的國家能源與氣候計劃案,預估2050年全國發電量至少11%來自核能,象徵義大利歷經34年的非核政策以後正式重啟核能發電。那這個新聞有沒有注意到?有嗎?那為什麼人家可以就這樣走了?"},{"start":324.344,"end":353.062,"text":"為什麼我們都可以逆向而行?台灣的核電跟別人的核電都不一樣嗎?你說我們的環境不同?我們跟日本的環境很像啊!我們今天在這裡其實就是希望我們不要只是喊說我們在AI世界的中心但是我們卻有可能成為缺電的中心這完全兜不起來啊!科技巨頭都非常關心電力的穩定但是我們看到的是什麼?"},{"start":353.982,"end":367.582,"text":"我們看到的是什麼?各種踢皮球的狀態然後我們的賴總統左擁右抱左擁右抱一邊是能源政策九彎十八拐修正在修正的郭部長"},{"start":368.632,"end":391.131,"text":"另外一邊總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會從反核轉向挺核的童子賢副召集人大家一搭一唱忙著唱一部民進黨與非核家園有緣無分的大戲一直說啊不是不愛啊只是迫於無奈啊520到現在兩手策略讓民眾看了一頭霧水現在我們在討論核電廠研議的時候還是說得不清不楚說國外的狀況沒有研究"},{"start":398.086,"end":423.348,"text":"今天我們五個草案其實方向都是一致的我們溫情喊話聲聲吹行政院充耳不聞院長甚至抱著神主牌說這不是神主牌說是心理的理念到現在還是沒有任何行政院的草案提出甚至沒有建議版的文字想請問委員會主委您支持今天我們修法草案的方向嗎"},{"start":425.649,"end":439.726,"text":"我覺得這個行政院長已經說明就是我們政府不會主動提出修法但是您敬表尊重嘛對不對這四個字對吧經濟部次長您支持今天修法草案的方向嗎還是敬表尊重"},{"start":444.278,"end":458.226,"text":"那您競表尊重算是有修改立場了啦,也是不錯啦,算至少有尊重但我看你們郭部長還不只尊重,態度還有很多鬆動那請問國發會的政檢記,您支持我們今天修法草案的方向嗎?所以我們的省主牌換名字啦,競表尊重變成新的省主牌啦那我們的非核家園省主牌算破除了嗎?"},{"start":471.826,"end":495.354,"text":"算破除了嗎?沒關係大家就是問到重點的時候就會停住希望我們的電力不要這樣啦那我想這個真的是很重要的問題我們回顧過去民國91年核子反應設施的管制法的立法討論當時負責說明的法案並不是經建會而是核安會前身的原能會"},{"start":496.914,"end":504.598,"text":"現在有很多人又突然講說相關的這個是國發會的責任踢皮球踢來踢去踢到國發會的門口了國發會我們就檢記出來來反映"},{"start":513.182,"end":539.557,"text":"我們體育也能踢球,文化也能踢球我們現在經濟的核心電力也在踢球到底有什麼東西是不是踢球的啦那我想這個真的是會不會到最後啊又踢了一顆球直接幫你們瞄準下一個目標啦到最後我們如果假設草案通過我看你們這個球又要踢到什麼氣候變遷委員會啊是不是到最後會不會又踢到氣候變遷委員會會不會"},{"start":542.81,"end":565.622,"text":"我看我今天就是神預言了啦如果今天大家都沒有什麼立場講來講去就是敬表尊重我是真的就覺得這樣真的是不夠負責任那我想請教那剛剛已經有非常多人在詢問就是說這些準備到底你們到底有沒有做計算到底要多少費用多少時間再給你們一個機會有沒有估算過"},{"start":576.798,"end":590.791,"text":"這個檢查安全檢查必須是個別機組的狀態如果有零件要更換那麼還需要更多餘的時間所以它有一定的不確定性那經費呢 有沒有範圍經費可能要台電來說明"},{"start":592.366,"end":609.635,"text":"因為這個禁慰就是像剛才朱薇講的要逐一下去檢視你才可以知道禁慰要怎麼去編列我真的是看起來我們就是教文我舉個例子有點像小孩子明天就要上大學了不知道他要念幾年也不知道他要多少學費這真的是我們在面對電力的做法嗎我們日本近年為了強化AI和晶片產業鏈的發展非常積極和國際企業合作"},{"start":616.938,"end":630.869,"text":"場商為了瞭解各國的環境適不適合其實也會到當地參訪電廠就本席瞭解近期也有台灣重點廠商到日本參訪核電廠請問經濟部和國發會日本是透過這樣的方式讓國際企業瞭解電力工藝的穩定性那我們呢我們拿什麼來承諾穩定供電我們有去參訪我們有去瞭解嗎剛剛還有說沒有聽過這些消息的"},{"start":642.638,"end":659.591,"text":"難道我們要用這種綠能概念股的股價成長趨勢來承諾穩定供電嗎?是這樣嗎?就是說我們這個綠能技術一片安詳股價一片看好是這樣嗎?我們用這個來承諾國際大廠我們有電嗎?我們如果有重大投資我們一定是經過規劃一定是穩定供電的"},{"start":667.844,"end":672.047,"text":"那剛剛說如果跳電如果供電不穩定誰要下台?市長要下台嗎?有人要負責嗎?我想這個同時前董事長最近又說了啦這現在的這個我們的跨界良心說非核家園政策正在卡住台灣削弱我們晶片產業的競爭力這也是我們許多關心能源議題人民的擔憂啦今天國民黨主動出來"},{"start":698.234,"end":699.956,"text":"主動出來勒?我們主動出來啦,要來破除什麼?我們今天多一張啦,多一張啊。我覺得我們不是煞車皮,國民黨不是煞車皮啊,我們是雷神之鎚啊,好不好?我們要來破除這個非核家園的神主牌,好不好?"},{"start":719.395,"end":729.285,"text":"我們開大門走大路審法案下台階都搭好了,執政黨不要繼續陷我們賴總統於不義,把我們的賴總統塑造成左擁右抱腳踏多條船的復興漢。」我剛剛忘記按出我的雷神之槌,雷神之槌啊,我還畫了閃電。"},{"start":740.455,"end":769.452,"text":"把我們的賴總統弄成這樣,真的是對的嗎?同時我要再強調,不好意思,這個稍微再給我30秒,10秒就可以了。我說,民進黨可以用卓院長近來最喜歡說的時空背景不同來回應嗎?當然不行。國會改革法案,我們提出過去相同的內容,民進黨反對的理由,時空背景不同。我們邀請來做國情報告,也是過去民進黨的主張,民進黨反對的理由也是什麼?時空背景不同。"},{"start":770.012,"end":786.757,"text":"但是現在面對核電廠演繹各國都在擁抱核能明顯就是時空背景不同現在你們突然又不講啦雙重標準現在突然又時空背景相同了嗎難怪童子前形容台灣對碳排的自我感覺過於良好是集體處在夢遊的狀態"},{"start":788.678,"end":802.903,"text":"各位官員不要再繼續裝睡下去剛剛我問很多問題你們都停在那邊也許真的是在夢遊希望不是希望我們稍後的逐條審查當中各位可以清醒過來我們理性務實的一起討論法案謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154604","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154604","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f84a22daac63d1b517a39103cf15d5982f90a5faf2fa6890fc970626aac8e0cc315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:57:27 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10:10:54","影片長度":"00:13:27","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:57:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T10:10:54+08:00","duration":807,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":229,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時57分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請央行的楊總裁。"],["主席：有請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：我先請教一下，現在股市天天漲、天天漲，外界大家都知道，股市漲，房市就跟著漲，你會不會擔心股市賺到錢就轉到房市去，又帶動房市新一波的上漲，會不會擔心這個事情？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想委員所講的這個都是有可能的，基於是一個行政院所推出來的健全房地產方案，我想也是各部會要共同要去密切注意的事情，中央銀行……"],["賴委員士葆：央行會不會有進一步的信用管制措施？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我們會密切注意，特別從去年8月以後，到目前為止，到我們的第一季，我們也都是隨時在密切注意當中。"],["賴委員士葆：因為現在通膨也是蠢蠢欲動，股市又漲，感覺就是國內的錢太多……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，通膨的議題慢慢是緩和下來的，如果我們是從CPI……"],["賴委員士葆：你的景氣線2%已經破了，會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，當然剛剛有說我們前三年都有超過2%，不過如果來看我們的Core CPI（核心CPI），現在核心CPI都已經慢慢降到2%以下。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我可以講一句話說，央行不排除進一步的對於通貨緊縮的作法，有可能？可不可以這樣講？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果按照委員你的解讀的話，我想每一個人都可以解讀啦！不過如果從中央銀行的立場來看，我們會說我們會密切注意，我們會滾動式的檢討，該做的時候，我們也要去做。"],["賴委員士葆：就是不排除有進一步的作法？"],["楊總裁金龍：中央銀行的職責就是金融穩定，對於金融穩定，我也一直在講，事實上我們是密切注意房價的，但是房價不是在我們中央銀行法的經營目標裡面，中央銀行法的經營目標是什麼？是金融穩定，這個背後的意思就是，如果房價太高，它是泡沫了，這樣泡沫下來的時候危害到我們銀行體系的債權，當它沒辦法承受的時候，會影響金融穩定，金融穩定發生問題的時候，它會外溢到我們經濟的發展。"],["賴委員士葆：現在房市有沒有泡沫的危機？有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我們就必須要密切的注意。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我們觀察兩個指標，第一個指標是NPL，就是呆帳率。"],["賴委員士葆：NPL很好啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是呆帳率是很低……"],["賴委員士葆：很好啦！NPL很好。"],["楊總裁金龍：NPL是很好，但是一般都認為它是落後指標，所以我們要更精進，我們做什麼呢？我們做stress test（壓力測試）。"],["賴委員士葆：基本上都通過了，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：關於壓力測試，在去年3月理監事會的時候，我們就有向理事報告，6月份理監事會的時候，我們也有跟理事報告，到目前為止，我們認為如果它發生巨變的時候，我們的銀行體系還能夠承受它的……"],["賴委員士葆：我問你今天的題目，央行數位貨幣能不能有個時間表？什麼時候可以正式上路，開始全面發行數位貨幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，事實上到目前為止我們還是在往前推動、往前進步，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：你從2019年就開始推動了，到現在……"],["楊總裁金龍：不、不、不，這個要謹慎，一個貨幣的改革必須要謹慎，要非常謹慎。"],["賴委員士葆：臺灣有沒有完全沒有現金的那一天，有沒有可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我只能回答說，在我們可看見的未來，現金還是會存在的。"],["賴委員士葆：你最少可以講一個，你大聲的講……"],["楊總裁金龍：我只能這樣說啊！因為如果那是很久很久以後的事情，我覺得我沒有那個vision，我沒有那樣的天眼通來告訴你。"],["賴委員士葆：總裁，最少你可以講一句話吧，在楊金龍任內絕對不會沒有現金，這句話可以吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，這個我可以保證，在我的任內，現金還是會留存。"],["賴委員士葆：而且比例還很高。"],["楊總裁金龍：可能、可能……"],["賴委員士葆：比例還非常非常高、非常非常非常高。虛擬貨幣到底是不是貨幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：虛擬貨幣事實上現在……也就是剛剛我在講的，這個定義、這個翻譯，因為我們所說的虛擬貨幣，事實上在英文是虛擬通貨，然而虛擬通貨的「通貨」，我總覺得那好像是在騙人，而虛擬資產，我們只能說它是資產，因為在我們的報告裡面也講了，它沒有具備那三個貨幣的條件，所以它不是貨幣。"],["賴委員士葆：所以到目前為止，你還不認為虛擬貨幣是資產，就這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：它只是資產，不是貨幣。"],["賴委員士葆：好。請金管會的彭主委，還有數位部的林次長，好嗎？"],["主席：有請彭主委跟林次長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：請教兩位長官，這是金管會講的吧？還是數發部講的？說詐騙24小時下架，然後我的FB被騙了、被盜用，結果我7月1號檢舉，兩天以後7月3號才下架，這誰管的？來。"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，之前是臉書，就是Meta它們答應24小時會下架，因為我們也接到委員您的通報，由於您是直接跟臉書那邊通報，事實上臉書現在在處理下架的速度上，我們覺得的確太慢了，我們一直跟它抱怨，現在數發部這邊就成立了一個公眾人物打詐專用郵箱，就是對於一些公眾人物，包含委員您，以後如果遇到這種狀況的話，可以通知我們，由我們這邊直接向Meta反映，請它們儘速下架。"],["賴委員士葆：做不到就不要講24小時下架，你也可以講48小時、72小時比較好講，請24小時下架，結果都是假的，這個東西根本下不了架。"],["林次長宜敬：那是Meta講的。"],["賴委員士葆：不是你講的？"],["林次長宜敬：不是我講的。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們來看，請金管會的彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員士葆：剛才楊總裁說虛擬貨幣是資產，也有人把它視為避難的資產，現在美國FBI資安報告提出，2021到 2022年損失4,300萬美金，金管會對於有關虛擬貨幣的這些交易造成的一些困擾、紛爭，你們怎麼處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們對於這個就是，最近有兩個部分，一個是從洗錢防制，一個在打詐的部分，我們已經把虛擬資產匡列在我們的對象裡面，當然洗錢這塊，就是打詐裡面帳戶管理的部分，我們也把虛擬資產的業者VASP已經放在打詐專法裡面。"],["賴委員士葆：我再請教，三家純網銀在3月底的時候虧損大概接近60億元，未來可能增加網銀的數目嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這是一個市場機制，不過大家對一些所謂的digital insurer或digital banking的獲利pattern，大家都有一定的想法，就是說銀行剛開始的時候建置成本很高，並不見得一開始用獲利來衡量它，我們也看到這三家純網銀確實在財報數字是這樣，但它們已經有開始呈現出改善的情況。"],["賴委員士葆：因為就是今天講到金融科技、科技金融，很重要的一環喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的態度就是即便它們虧損，可是未來這一塊如果有人要申請，你們也是開放，是不是這個意思？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實對市場來講，我們尊重市場機制，所以其實這些門，我們並沒有關掉。"],["賴委員士葆：我聽說金融研訓院要換人了，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是有任期制，各個組織都有它的任期制。"],["賴委員士葆：確定換人？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他的任期到了，現在……"],["賴委員士葆：確定換人？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在人事……"],["賴委員士葆：就是蘇建榮走了、要離開了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，他們應該是在9月才會到期，我想這部分還有一段時間。"],["賴委員士葆：還有F4也要換人？有這樣子嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們會按照我們的制度，就是他們任期到，這樣會……"],["賴委員士葆：最後一小題，主席，再給我一點點時間。最後一小題，有一個暗網，請數位部認真看喔！虛擬通貨有個暗網、有個幣託平台，你只要上去，然後你就可以透過它去買這些，你看臺灣股票、臺灣證券，臺灣股民100萬全格式，去買然後就被騙了，這個有沒有法可以管？有沒有技術可以管？你知道暗網這個事嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，以我的瞭解，目前並沒有法律可以管到這個地方，因為像這樣子的暗網，它的server通常是設在國外，所有這些……"],["賴委員士葆：它還成立協會，還有理事長，成立協會還有理事長。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，所以它大刺刺在那裡，你們就沒得管了？沒有法可以管了？"],["林次長宜敬：是，我想這個地方是我們整個臺灣不管是行政部門或立法部門，都必須通力合作想辦法來管理這樣的問題。事實上，世界各個國家對於這種暗網、這種交易都覺得非常困難，因為這個交易發生的地點事實上是在internet上面，有的像是這種加密貨幣的話，它根本就沒有在固定一個國家，因為它是完全去中心化的，所以到底是哪一個國家有這個管轄權……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的意思就是沒辦法管？"],["林次長宜敬：是，現在全世界所有的國家都面臨到這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：那金融會的彭主委呢？就這樣沒辦法管怎麼辦？"],["林次長宜敬：現在就是我們可以管的是虛擬貨幣的交易所，而不是虛擬貨幣本身，因為虛擬貨幣本身是完全去中心化的，但是虛擬貨幣的交易所是有它運作的地點，它是有server……"],["賴委員士葆：你們管得到嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：如果是虛擬貨幣的交易所……"],["賴委員士葆：交易所管得到嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：交易所如果設置在國內的話，我們就可以管得到，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：請彭主委講一下好不好？能不能管得到？像這些暗網，你們怎麼處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實剛剛次長講得很清楚，這是全世界大家對於網路無國界、對於數位資產一個很重要的盲點，我在前面幾次也有跟幾位委員報告這個問題，就是特別對一些境外，還有像這種不是我們現在已經做機構管理納管的部分，確實我們要想其他的辦法來好好處理。"],["賴委員士葆：好吧！金管會、數發部，好好去想一下吧！怎麼去管理這些？被騙的是很多、洗錢的也是很多，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員指正。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢。今天在王鴻薇委員的質詢之後，我們休息10分鐘。","接著我們請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.83221875,"end":3.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.30034375,"end":5.312843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.71784375,"end":7.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.30409375,"end":7.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.232218750000001,"end":9.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.922843750000002,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.25596875,"end":19.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.610343750000002,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.977218750000002,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.027843750000002,"end":20.297843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.297843750000002,"end":22.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.778468750000002,"end":23.132843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.18346875,"end":23.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.21721875,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.31409375,"end":25.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.05221875,"end":26.305343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.305343750000002,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.65971875,"end":28.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.71409375,"end":31.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.46471875,"end":32.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.44346875,"end":34.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.69221875,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.49784375,"end":39.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.97409375,"end":41.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.813468750000006,"end":62.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.71721875,"end":65.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.18971875,"end":65.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.43846875,"end":65.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.62409375,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.64096875,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.75909375,"end":68.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.69534375,"end":69.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.82596875,"end":78.56721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.68534375,"end":85.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.51971875000001,"end":89.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.46409375,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.70409375000001,"end":96.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.31971875,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.89596875000001,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.68034375,"end":131.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.55034375,"end":133.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.69784375,"end":139.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.19909375,"end":141.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.69659375,"end":145.78034375000001},{"spe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Test。我們做壓力測試。壓力測試呢,我們在去年的,我們在3月的時候,理監事會的時候呢,我們就有向理事報告。我們6月份的時候呢,我們理監事會的時候,我們也有跟理事報告。"},{"start":273.953,"end":296.178,"text":"那到目前為止呢我們認為就是說我們如果說它發生巨變的時候呢我們的銀行體系還能夠承受它的這個我問你今天題目啊這個銀行數位貨幣啊這個能不能有個時間表什麼時候可以正式上路說"},{"start":302.392,"end":314.635,"text":"我跟委員報告,事實上我們到目前為止還是在往前推動,往前進步你從2019年就開始推動了,到現在你還要顧不顧啊不不,這個要謹慎,一個貨幣的改革必須要謹慎"},{"start":321.596,"end":324.477,"text":"我只能回答說在我們可看見的未來現金還是會存在的"},{"start":341.604,"end":357.272,"text":"你最少可以講一個很大聲的結論我只能這樣說啊因為如果說那很久很久以後的事情我覺得我沒有那個vision我沒有那樣的那個天眼通最少你可以講一句話吧那個總裁在楊金龍任內絕對不會沒有現金對對對對這個我可以保證在我的陣內現金還是會留存"},{"start":367.517,"end":377.722,"text":"而且比例還很高可能可能比例還非常非常高還非常非常非常高這個虛擬貨幣到底它是不是貨幣啊"},{"start":386.426,"end":407.475,"text":"虛擬貨幣事實上現在所以也就是說剛剛我在講就是說這個定義這個翻譯有些時候就是說因為我們所說的虛擬貨幣事實上他們就說在英文他說虛擬通貨那事實上虛擬通貨通貨好像是我總裁人那是在騙人的"},{"start":408.661,"end":409.021,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":442.839,"end":449.425,"text":"請教兩位長官這是金管會講的吧說詐騙24小時下架還是數位部講的結果我的FB被騙了盜用結果7月1日我檢舉7月3日兩天以後才下架這誰管的"},{"start":467.995,"end":468.035,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":489.674,"end":508.282,"text":"在數發部我們這邊就成立了一個公眾人物打造專用郵箱就是對一些公眾人物包含委員您以後如果遇到這種狀況的話可以跟我們通知由我們這邊來直接向那個META來反映請他們儘速下架做不到就不要講24小時下架你可以講一個48小時72小時比較好講24小時下架結果都是假的"},{"start":514.264,"end":514.664,"text":"虛擬貨幣剛才楊總裁講說它是資產"},{"start":532.622,"end":553.861,"text":"也有人把它視為避難的資產。現在美國FBI資產報告提出來2021到2022損失4300萬美金這個經管會對於有關於虛擬貨幣的這些交易再存的一些困擾紛爭你們怎麼處理啊?"},{"start":555.102,"end":582.635,"text":"現在就是我們對於這個我們最近有兩個部分一個是從洗錢防治一個在打詐的部分我們已經把那個虛擬資產這個已經匡列在我們的對象裡面當然洗錢是最快這是打詐裡面的帳戶管理的部分我們也把虛擬資產的業者已經放在我們的打詐專法裡面我再請教這個三家存網銀在3月底的時候接近大概虧損接近60億元"},{"start":584.636,"end":611.451,"text":"未來還可能增加網銀的數目嗎?現在其實這是一個市場機制不過就是大家對一些所謂的digital insurer或digital banking的這個獲利的pattern大家都有一定有個想法就是說一個銀行剛開始的時候建制成本很高並不見得一開始用獲利來衡量它我們也看到這三家存網銀確實在財報數字是這樣但他們已經有開始呈現出就是改善的一個"},{"start":611.991,"end":632.996,"text":"因為這是今天講到金融科技、科技金融很重要的一環囉所以你的態度就是說即便他們虧損可是為了這一塊如果有人要申請你們也是開放是不是這個意思其實我們對市場來講我們尊重市場機制所以我們其實這些門我們並沒有關掉我聽說金融元氣業你們要換人了是不是"},{"start":635.033,"end":662.592,"text":"這是有任期制,各個組織都有他的任期制。確定換人?確定換人?這個蘇建隆走了,要離開了?沒有,他們應該是在9月才會到期啦,我想這部分還有一段時間。還有F4也要換人?他們會按照我們的制度,就是他們有任期到。好,最後一小題啊,這個主席再給我一點點時間。最後一小題啊,有一個暗網,請那個數位部認真看喔。"},{"start":664.366,"end":684.975,"text":"虛擬通貨有個暗網叫做幣有個平台的幣拖平台你這樣上去然後你就可以通過它去買這些台灣你看台灣股票台灣證券台灣股民100萬的全格式去買然後就被騙了這個有沒有法可以管有沒有技術可以管你知道這個事吧暗網"},{"start":688.682,"end":711.575,"text":"根委員報告,依我的瞭解目前並沒有法律可以管到這個地方,因為像這樣子的案網,它的那個server通常是設在國外。那這些所有...他成立協會了,還有理事長,成立協會還有理事長。是。不是,所以他大落落在那裡你們說沒得管了,沒有法可以管了。"},{"start":712.824,"end":739.02,"text":"我想這個地方是我們整個臺灣不管是行政部門或立法部門都必須通力合作想辦法來管理這樣的問題事實上世界各個國家對這種暗網這種交易都覺得非常的困難因為它這個交易發生的地點事實上是在Internet上面那有的像是這種加密貨幣的話它根本就沒有在固定一個國家因為它是完全去中心化的"},{"start":739.6,"end":762.588,"text":"所以到底是哪一個國家有這個管理?是,現在全世界所有的國家都遇到這個問題。那現在就是說我們可以管的是這個虛擬貨幣的交易所而不是虛擬貨幣本身,因為虛擬貨幣本身是完全去中心化的,但是虛擬貨幣的交易所是有它的運作的地點。你們管得到嗎?"},{"start":763.877,"end":763.957,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":786.445,"end":786.925,"text":"金融委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"154603","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154603","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8d1a7eb991b06e7a9a9bb3959728069a090a5faf2fa6890fc089d1730ef7b1b9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:55:53 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in China」，除非你把眼睛閉起來，否則你只要睜開眼睛，就會看到那個叫「Made in China」，它為什麼敢這麼大剌剌的？它有恃無恐，而且不只這樣，我給部長看，它說，有裝中國製路由器的工業電腦，只有紅柴林營區。這個是剛剛他們回報給部長的內容，我應該沒有掌握錯吧！"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，清查的結果也是這樣說。我為什麼說他們騙國防部？我今天詢答完，我願意選擇國防部是被欺騙的，而不是國防部知道，在幫他們遮掩，因為這兩天我一直在想，到底是他們騙國防部，還是國防部知道以後，幫他們遮掩。","請看一下，這個是廠商的公務車輛RCX-○○○○（中華得利卡），維護日期是2024年7月2日，回報人員、維運人員的全名我都有，但我想不要為難基層的人，他們只是奉命做事，他們去做什麼事？他們去國防_率真校區_教學大樓等等，地點全部都有，然後說明處理的狀況，國防大學：應校方要求回收MIC（就是Made in China）相關監控設備，共11臺IPC+Router（這是資通訊產品路由器）（含Sim卡）回公司。那等於是什麼？等於是國防大學知道，通知這個不肖廠商，東西你來給我拆走。因為軍人自己不會拆那些資通訊產品。它已經通知廠商來拆走，廠商被通知以後，派人去拆，現在拆完了沒有？拆完了，所以才會有這個「維運監工作業回報」。結果國防大學是隱匿不報嗎？國防部是被蒙蔽嗎？請問部長，這到底怎麼回事？這到底怎麼回事？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員回報，6月26日委員質詢完之後，我們部長就非常的要求我們要落實……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我瞭解，部長很重視，請不要講……"],["林局長文祥：我們確認三次，回報只有紅柴林有路由器……"],["黃委員國昌：是，國防大學什麼時候回報的？"],["林局長文祥：至今我們沒有得到這個訊息。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起！我聽不懂，我上次檢舉就有檢舉國防大學啦！剛剛部長也說，國防大學沒有啊！所以到底是沒有，還是你們不知道，還是沒有回報，現在情況到底是怎麼樣？"],["顧部長立雄：我看委員既然有這樣子的質疑，我想我們下去之後會跟國防大學來進一步查明。"],["黃委員國昌：因為主席站起來了，我很快跟部長報告，你們是有發新聞稿的喔！國防部清查的結果有發新聞稿，說至於國防大學率真營區，則沒有使用陸製產品。我相信這是國防部發的新聞稿，所以我不曉得你左手邊的是哪一位，他剛剛說你們不知道。應該不是不知道，就有發新聞稿了嘛！"],["林局長文祥：是它沒有回報給我們，我們不知道。"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有回報給你們，你們怎麼會說沒有呢？它應該是回報給你們說沒有嘛！而不是沒有回報給你們，我這樣理解沒有錯吧！"],["顧部長立雄：它應該是回報沒有。"],["林局長文祥：沒有，回報沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我今天就是要跟部長檢舉這件事，它跟部裡面回報沒有，可是就有，而且還是它通知廠商去拆的，拆的還不是只有逆變器，有IPC，有路由器，含Sim卡喔！這個問題就嚴重了嘛！國防大學誰在包庇？跟廠商勾串嗎？這到底是怎麼回事？部長，可不可以承諾把它查清楚？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們下去會把它調查清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：那個查清楚，查完了以後，查完的結果是不是可以回復給我？"],["顧部長立雄：可以、可以。"],["黃委員國昌：我只有一個原則，太可惡啦！太可惡啦！被抓到還幹這種事，被抓到還幹這種事！對不起我們的國防弟兄，甚至本來還要輕輕地放過它，結果還繼續在幹這種事，還欺騙國防部！這個責任一定要追究清楚。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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黃委員好部長 延續上一次那個質詢的主題綠能國家隊聯合再生我們納稅人投資的綠能國家隊不要說投資啦 是紓困拿錢去給他亂花的綠能國家隊竟然在我們的南洋指揮部還不止還包括了其他的海軍營區等等裝了中國製的逆變器那上一次質詢完了以後"},{"start":35.911,"end":64.69,"text":"那也很感謝我們部里的同仁把一些聯合再生他們回報的一個結果包括了說在軍警局有22台陸軍紅柴林園區有44台海軍有62台國防大學有83台這一些中國製的逆變器他們已經都呈報回來了"},{"start":67.072,"end":90.604,"text":"國防大學應該是沒有應該是您講的應該是三軍三總的松山分院部長您看一下我現在在講的是逆變期國防大學率真園區沒有沒有是不是沒有我等一下跟部長報告針對有的部分我上次跟部長提了說如果我們國防部有要求"},{"start":92.044,"end":117.84,"text":"對這種不肖廠商只是抓到了趕快通知他你被抓到了趕快換一換就不會有嚇阻的效力上次部長承諾我說你會回去研究一下契約當然我前兩天我有質詢過國安局局長這個也就是說在我們自通安全管理法裡面針對這個部分沒有設法則我個人是期期於而不可但沒有關係現行的法規範狀態長成這個樣子"},{"start":119.921,"end":135.062,"text":"那就契約上面,主張權力這件事情,國防部現在打算怎麼辦?國防部就那個涉及的紅柴林的營區應該是會終止這個合約那其他的部分呢?"},{"start":135.799,"end":151.711,"text":"其他部分跟委員報告因為如果涉及這個變流器的部分的話我們評估結果因為它沒有涉及運算傳輸等等的這個功能所以它只有逆變器的這個部分的話應該不至於有影響治安的這個狀況所以我們會採更換的這個部分來處理"},{"start":155.56,"end":172.077,"text":"我跟部長交換一個概念就是說能夠到我們國防部的軍事要塞裡面去裝設這種東西的廠商我們要很嚴肅的看待我希望建立的原則是不是他哪裡被抓到"},{"start":173.12,"end":196.881,"text":"哪裡壞一壞就處理掉了而是要一體性的去評估這一種會欺騙會說謊而且無視國防安全無視國安安全的廠商在本質上是不是我們國防部我們各個部隊我們所有其他三軍可以合作的對象"},{"start":198.331,"end":220.494,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在因為他是講他原來是租地跟或者是租屋頂所以我們原來的這一個相關的這個驗收的作為可能沒有因為他是我們只是單純租地租屋頂可是現在我們我已經要求了部長你說的有道理你說到的完全是point"},{"start":220.734,"end":248.725,"text":"他租地租屋頂來幹嘛?裝他的東西嗎?裝他的東西要發電嘛他要賣電要賺錢嘛我們允許一個廠商喔到我們的軍事要塞裡面去裝各式各樣的設備讓他發電讓他可以賣電所以我剛才跟部長講這個廠商會不會欺騙很重要這個廠商有沒有把我們國家的國家安全放在心裡面很重要"},{"start":250.045,"end":277.508,"text":"這個廠商有沒有顧慮到我們這一些非常辛苦冒險犯難我們的這一些軍人很重要所以我才跟部長講說我只是跟部長交換一個概念國防部面對這種廠商什麼樣的廠商我們應該允許他到我們的軍事要塞裡面來去裝這些東西這件事情要控管為什麼我會做這樣的事我跟部長報告"},{"start":278.829,"end":295.494,"text":"他絕對不是不小心的啦上次我給你看的那個照片照片上面貼著就Made in China嘛除非你把眼睛閉起來否則你只要睜開眼睛就會看到那個叫Made in China他為什麼敢這麼大剌剌的他有恃無恐而且不只這樣來我給部長看"},{"start":298.795,"end":314.632,"text":"他說有裝中國製路由器工業電腦的只有紅柴林營區嘛這個是剛剛他們回報給部長的內容我應該沒有掌握錯吧是好來清查的結果也是這樣說好來我為什麼說吼他們騙國防部"},{"start":318.252,"end":339.533,"text":"我今天詢答完我願意選擇國防部是被欺騙而不是國防部知道在幫他們遮掩因為我這兩天我一直在想到底是他們騙國防部還是國防部知道以後幫他們遮掩來請看一下這個是廠商喔公務車輛RCX中華德力卡"},{"start":341.123,"end":352.932,"text":"維護日期2024年7月2號回報的人員、維運的人員全名我都有但我想不要為難基層的人他們只是奉命做事他們去做什麼事"},{"start":354.093,"end":375.646,"text":"他們去國防率真營區、教學大樓等等等等地點全部都有然後說明處理的狀況國防大學應校方要求回收MIC就是Made in China相關監控設備共11台IPC加Routers這是資通訊產品路由器含SIM卡"},{"start":383.24,"end":408.951,"text":"回公司那等於是什麼等於是國防大學知道通知這個不肖廠商欸你東西也來給我拆走因為軍人他自己不會拆嘛那些資通訊產品他已經通知廠商叫他來拆走然後廠商被通知以後派人去拆拆完了現在拆完了沒有拆完了所以才會有這個什麼違運監工作業回報"},{"start":412.213,"end":438.63,"text":"那結果國防大學是以逆不報嗎?國防不是被蒙蔽嗎?請部長這到底怎麼回事?這到底怎麼回事?跟委員回報齁上6月26號委員執行完之後我們部長就非常的要求我們要落實這個我了解部長很重視請不要講我們確認三次就是"},{"start":440.131,"end":460.677,"text":"回報只有洪才琳有錄遊戲是 國防大學什麼時候回報的至今啦 我們沒有得到這個訊息對不起 我聽不懂我上次檢舉就有檢舉國防大學啦剛剛部長也說國防大學沒有啊所以到底是沒有還是你們不知道還是沒有回報現在情況到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":462.148,"end":488.217,"text":"我看委員既然有這樣子的一個質疑我想我們會下去之後會跟國防大學來進一步來進一步查明因為主席站起來我很快跟部長報告你們是有發新聞稿的喔國防部清查了結果發新聞稿喔所至於國防大學率真營區則沒有使用錄製產品我相信這是國防部發的新聞稿"},{"start":489.761,"end":516.337,"text":"所以剛剛我不曉得您左手邊那是哪一位說你們不知道應該不是不知道就有發新聞稿了嘛是他沒有回報給我們我們不知道對那如果沒有回報給你們那你們怎麼會說沒有呢他是應該回報給你們說沒有嘛而不是沒有回報給你們我這樣理解沒有錯吧他應該是回報沒有沒有回報沒有好那我今天就是要跟部長檢舉這件事他跟部裡面回報說沒有那就有"},{"start":517.87,"end":540.383,"text":"而且還是他通知廠商去拆的拆的還不是只有逆變器喔是IPC喔是路由器喔含SIM卡喔那這個問題就嚴重了嘛國防大學誰在包屁跟廠商勾串嗎這到底是怎麼回事部長可不可以承諾把他查清楚"},{"start":541.372,"end":555.346,"text":"我們下去會把它調查清楚那個查清楚查完了以後查完了結果是不是可以回覆給我可以可以我只有一個原則齁太可惡了太可惡了被抓到還幹這種事啊被抓到還幹這種事啊"},{"start":562.386,"end":564.428,"text":"我們接下來請沈博洋委員上台指導"}]}},{"id":"154602","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154602","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8fb08f808fe91cc75ca0ece664f026f7b7ec06bbf1d30435c72a2b8a50a72bd045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:49:38 - 09:58:01","影片長度":"00:08:23","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:49:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T09:58:01+08:00","duration":503,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":284,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（9時49分）謝謝主席。有請陳主委跟經濟部連次長。"],["主席：好，陳主委、連次長。"],["陳主任委員東陽：林委員早。"],["林委員宜瑾：首先我要向柯志恩召委喊話一下，核能安全、核廢處理和社會共識這三大要件都不可偏廢，我想在這三大要件還沒有完備之前，我們沒有任何透過修法要求繼續使用核電的正當性，我堅決反對外行的立法來干涉專業核能安全的審查，所以我呼籲柯志恩召委要珍惜人民賦予的權力，今天不應該進入法條的審查。如果這項法條那麼具有公益性，大家應該搶著提案都來不及，為什麼會淪落到今天這種地步？就連國民黨的教文召委跟國民黨的教文委員都不願意提案，只有幾個從國會擴權惡法一路惡搞臺灣到今天的戰鬥藍有提，所以我再次喊話柯志恩召委，今天真的不該進入法條的審查，我覺得詢答結束就應該散會，放過人民、放過臺灣、尊重專業。","昨晚公民團體與群眾在立法院外濟南路集結，舉辦「反對核電延役、拒絕草率修法」的晚會，表達拒絕核管法草率修法的訴求。今天本席要針對這一連串修法的提案版本來做一些批判，首先我想請教核安會主委，核安會作為把關國內核能電廠安全監督的機關，除了確保運轉當下的安全性，當然我們更不能忽略未來的安全性，我國核電廠從1980年代前後商轉至今，三座核電廠各機組都有40年左右的歷史，依照核管法第六條的規定，本來就應該在運轉期限屆期前重新進行安全評估，否則依法就要停止運轉，著手除役的作業，核管法制定當初就有這一層40年限制的安全考量，以及在運轉有效屆期前5年到15年換照申請的法定期間。請教主委，這些是否是為了核能發電未來安全性的考量而定的？面對核能這麼一個謹慎掌控風險的能源，主委你是不是同意這些年限的限制是合理的？"],["陳主任委員東陽：完全合理，我們是前5年到前15年，美國是前5年到前20年，我們其實是比照國際的經驗。"],["林委員宜瑾：其實在過去馬政府執政時期的2009年，台電就已經提出核一廠一號機及二號機的延役申請，只是截至2016年2月，歷經了近7年，台電公司乃有七項議題沒有提出相關的評估或改善結果的答復說明。從這個歷史前例我們可以看得出來，核電延役的審查需要時間，就如同過去主委你也常常回復委員的，因為這個問題相當複雜，以至於多年過去核電廠延役的審查都沒有下文，最後的結果就是台電撤回延役的申請。","再來同樣是一份歷史的回顧，2011年馬前總統召開能源政策記者會的時候，他曾經宣布核一、核二、核三將不再延役，並強調以積極、務實跟負責的態度，逐步邁向非核家園。現在各個國民黨委員紛紛提出核電要延役的修法，完完全全就是在穿越時空打臉馬前總統，非核家園不但是環境基本法的明文目標，也是這幾任總統通通都有宣示過的內容，況且核電的延役有安全性的問題，我們必須先停機檢修，才能符合繼續運轉的能量。可是檢修需要耗費好幾年的時間跟龐大的預算，綜合前面所說的，提出申請審核需要時間，停機檢修需要時間，更新機組也需要時間，所以核三機組停機在即的現在，我們要求不停止運轉而延役，等於是擔著核電廠超時服役的更高風險，我們根本沒有這樣的本錢去承受。所以本席在前一次核安會的質詢中，我就提出質疑說延役到底需要多少成本？根本沒有辦法平衡擁核人士口中所謂的便宜電價。這次我就簡單問一下主委跟次長好了，最近一次即將停機的核三廠一號機檢修需要多少時間？還有在現行條件下，如果重啟營運，維修成本又需要多少？請簡單回答。"],["連次長錦漳：就目前來講，最快、最快也要5年，就像剛才講的，因為核能如果停了之後要再運轉，它有很多很多複雜的問題，包括低階燃料怎麼去處理以及一些機構安全的問題，這些如果又要再評估完的話，我想最快是5年，最長搞不好要拖到10年以上。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，這是時間嘛，那整個的成本呢？需要花的經費的成本呢？"],["連次長錦漳：這個成本我們目前沒有估計，應該……"],["林委員宜瑾：難以估計？"],["連次長錦漳：第一個，我們沒有去做檢查，也沒有去評估哪邊還要再重製，再來就是說如果這個時間是拖到5年、10年，對於整個的能源供應上其實是緩不濟急啦！所以說我們在做整個能源供應的時候，我們要用最嚴格的環境設置條件，我不能講說它一定存在，這樣對於我們的能源供應就是存在一個大的漏洞，所以我們一定是說非核我執行下去，整個能源我要怎麼再去接上來，這樣對於整個國家在能源供應上才是一個最好的打算。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以在次長您的說法之下，核電真的經濟嗎？真的穩定嗎？我想這是大大的懷疑。另外，與其搶著討論核電再運轉，是不是來討論核廢處置場比較務實一點？在此想請教主委和次長，全世界有哪個國家在核電廠營運三、四十年之後還沒有興建核廢乾貯設施的？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我的理解是沒有國家……"],["林委員宜瑾：沒有國家？只有臺灣？"],["陳主任委員東陽：只有臺灣這樣子。"],["林委員宜瑾：只有臺灣，就只有臺灣！所以在安全把關的考量下，必須要先討論核廢料的處理。再度請教主委跟次長，使用核電的前提是不是得先安全的處理核廢料？是嘛！如果核廢的事情沒辦法處理，社會也沒辦法達到共識，核能安全也沒辦法掌握，我想討論今天的議題完全都是空談，所以我再次重申本席的立場，不能讓今天的決定成為明天的困境，任何人都不該用政治來決定安全這件事情，所以昨天公民集結，學者與各界代表一個一個宣講，表達拒絕核電的訴求，核電再運轉絕對不是一條可行的道路，所以拜託主委跟次長好好的把關，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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有請陳竺偉跟經濟部連次長"},{"start":15.086,"end":34.85,"text":"林委員早我想首先我先要向柯之恩召委喊話一下核能安全、核廢處理跟社會共識這三大要件都不可偏廢我想在這三大要件之前還沒有完備之前我們沒有任何透過修法要求繼續使用核電的正當性所以我堅決反對外行的立法來干涉專業的核能安全的審查"},{"start":39.491,"end":59.797,"text":"所以我呼籲科智恩、昭緯要珍惜人民賦予的權利今天不應該進入法條的審查那如果這項法條那麼具有公義性那大家搶後提而來不及為什麼會淪落到今天這種地步就連國民黨的教文的昭緯跟國民黨的教文委員都不願意提案只有幾個從國會擴權惡法一路惡搞台灣到今天的戰鬥欄有提"},{"start":64.679,"end":72.685,"text":"所以我再次喊話克珍、昭緯今天真的不該進入法條的審查。尋答結束,我覺得就應該散會。放過人民,放過台灣,尊重專業。昨晚公民團體與群眾在立法院外濟南路集結,舉辦反對核電研議拒絕草率修法的晚會。"},{"start":87.296,"end":113.676,"text":"那表達拒絕核管法草率修法有訴求我想今天本席要針對這一連串這個修法的這個提案版本來做一些批判首先我想請教核安會主委核安會作為把關這個國內核能電廠安全監督的機關除了確保運轉當下的安全性當然我們更不能忽略就是未來的安全性那我國核電廠從1980年代前後商轉至今"},{"start":117.459,"end":136.998,"text":"三座核電廠各機組都有40年左右的歷史依照核管法第六條的規定本來就應該在運轉期限屆期前重新進行安全的評估否則就依法要停止運轉來著手所謂的除役的作業"},{"start":137.799,"end":157.856,"text":"那核管法制定當初就有這一層40年的限制的安全考量以及在運轉有效借期前5年到15年的換照申請的法定期間所以請教主委這些是否是為了核能發電的未來安全性的考量而定的"},{"start":158.456,"end":167.161,"text":"那面對核能這麼一個謹慎掌控風險的能源,主委你是不是同意這些年限的限制是合理的?"},{"start":169.003,"end":194.778,"text":"完全合理五年到前15年美國是前5年到前20年我們其實是比照國際的經驗其實在過去馬政府執政時期的2009年台電就已經提出核一廠一號機及二號機的研議申請只是他截至2016年的2月他提出到"},{"start":197.259,"end":214.266,"text":"例經近7年,台電公司能有7項的議題沒有提出相關的評估或改善結果的答覆說明所以從這個歷史前提我們可以看得出來核電研議的審查需要時間就如同過去主委你也常常"},{"start":217.047,"end":227.214,"text":"這個問題是相當複雜以至於多年過去核電廠研議的審查都沒有下文最後的結果就是台電撤回研議的申請那再來同樣是一份歷史的回顧2011年馬前總統召開能源政策記者會的時候他曾經宣布"},{"start":237.481,"end":241.687,"text":"核一、核二、核三將不再研議並強調以積極務實跟負責的態度逐步邁向非核家園現在各個國民黨紛紛提出核電要研議的修法完完全全就是在穿越時空打臉"},{"start":254.785,"end":263.754,"text":"馬前總統非核家園不但是環境基本法的明文目標也是這幾任總統通通有宣示過的內容況且核電的研議有安全性的問題我們必須要先停機檢修才符合所謂繼續運轉的能量"},{"start":278.008,"end":295.796,"text":"那可是檢修需要耗費好幾年的時間跟龐大的預算那綜合前面所說的提出申請審核需要時間停機檢修需要時間更新機組也需要時間那所以核三機組的停機在即的現在我們要求"},{"start":296.943,"end":321.677,"text":"不停止運轉而研議等於是擔著核電廠超時服役的更高風險所以我們根本沒有這樣的本錢去承受所以本席在前一次核安會的質詢中我就提出質疑說研議到底需要多少的成本那根本沒有辦法平衡這個永和人士口中所謂的便宜電價這次我們簡單就問一下主委跟次長好了"},{"start":322.017,"end":327.006,"text":"最近一次即將停機的這個核三廠一號機檢修時間需要多少時間?還有在現行條件下如果重啟這個營運那維修成本又需要多少?簡單回答"},{"start":338.055,"end":361.692,"text":"就目前來講最快最快要5年了那有可能是因為剛才講的因為你可能如果你要停了之後要再運轉它有很多很多複雜的問題像剛才包括燃料這些低階燃料要怎麼去處理等等還有一些機構安全的問題這些如果又再平復完之後我想最快是5年最長搞不好要拖到10年以上對這是時間嘛那整個的成本呢需要花的經費的成本呢"},{"start":367.136,"end":387.326,"text":"因為這個成本我們是目前是沒有去估計的應該因為第一個我們沒有去做檢查嘛是也沒有去評估說哪邊還要再去重置嘛那再來就是說如果這個時間是拖到5年10年那對於我們整個在能源的供應上其實是緩不濟急的所以說我們在做整個能源供應的時候我們要用最"},{"start":388.146,"end":407.514,"text":"最嚴格的一個環境的一個設置條件我不能把這個就講說它一定是存在那這樣對於我的能源供應是一個存在一個大的漏洞所以我們一定是要把說那我非核我執行下去那我整個能源我要怎麼再去接上來那這樣對於整個國家在能源供應上才是一個最好的一個"},{"start":408.354,"end":419.201,"text":"好 所以在次長您的說法之下就是說核電真的經濟嗎?真的穩定嗎?那我想這是大大的懷疑啦齁那好 那另外我想預期啦齁搶著這個討論核電再運轉那是不是來討論核廢處置廠比較務實一點喔好 我們請教主委跟次長就全世界有哪個國家在核電廠營運三四十年之後還沒有興建核廢竿組設施的"},{"start":439.195,"end":464.908,"text":"我的理解是沒有沒有國家沒有國家只有台灣只有台灣就只有台灣所以在安全把關的考量下必須要先討論核廢料的處理嘛所以在座請教主委跟次長就使用核電的前提是不是得先安全的處理核廢料是嗎好那所以最後啦我想核廢的事情沒辦法處理"},{"start":466.252,"end":480.997,"text":"社會也沒有辦法達到共識 核能安全也沒辦法掌握那我想討論今天的這個議題 完全都是空談所以我再次重申本席的立場不能讓今天的決定成為明天的困境任何人都不該用政治來決定安全這件事情"},{"start":483.078,"end":498.023,"text":"所以昨天公民集結學者與各界的代表一個一個宣講表達拒絕核電的訴求核電再運轉這絕對真的不是一條可行的道路所以拜託我們主委跟次長好好的把關 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154601","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154601","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f84259aad901673771a39103cf15d5982f7ec06bbf1d30435cb6f4c723cc33aa495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:46:52 - 09:57:13","影片長度":"00:10:21","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:46:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T09:57:13+08:00","duration":621,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":177,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時46分）主席，麻煩請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：有請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：吳委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：楊總裁，我們今天一直在談的這個數位貨幣，它的定義是怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：數位貨幣最簡單的來說有兩個層次，第一個，我們把現在的現金數位化。"],["吳委員秉叡：現金數位化之後，那個現金還要不要再發行？"],["楊總裁金龍：假設我們零售型的CBDC開始發行的時候，當然我們的現金還是依然要發行……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以你印出來的現金存起來，假設我印了一兆的現金存起來，然後我相對應發行一兆的數位貨幣，是不是這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是這樣子，而是說我們的現金也是在流通，數位化……"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道，當然雙軌現金可以流通嘛，但是數位貨幣的印行後面是要有實體貨幣。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員問得很好，事實上，銀行現在跟中央銀行領取現金的時候都是要透過它的存款準備金去撥轉，也就是說我們的CBDC的背後就是存款準備金，這樣的話我要發出去的時候，它用存款準備金來跟我互換，跟現在現金的流通是一樣的。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，但是沒有給它的現金，央行要準備著嘛！要存放著嘛！我的意思是說，你的數位貨幣後面要錨定在現鈔上面嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員提的這個也是一個問題，不過我再更進一步的講，以前我們都一直在報告，我們現金背後都是有準備，我們的準備是什麼？我們準備有兩種，第一個就是黃金，第二個就是我們的外匯存底。也就是說，我們現金的發行是採十足的準備，我有黃金、我有外匯存底做為我發行現金，同樣的道理……"],["吳委員秉叡：總裁，這個我瞭解，但是問題是像現在美國已經不採這樣……"],["楊總裁金龍：它也不是，它應該不是百分之百。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！它已經沒有跟隨著他儲存的黃金等資產去印鈔。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還是百分之百。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你講，中國更嚴重喔！中國現在有一個名詞叫做「無錨印鈔」，沒有錨定，隨便它印啊！這是通貨即將要大幅膨脹、貨幣要巨額貶值的一種前兆啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，臺灣目前還是百分之百發行準備。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啦！我的意思是說，從這個邏輯推論起來，我認定目前的數位貨幣要錨定在我所有的現金上，假設我發行一兆的數位貨幣，我要儲存有一兆的現金嘛！當然，你說那個現金我可以不要用現金，我可以用黃金、我可以用債券，這我同意。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯、沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：那就是要錨定，總共的貨幣額沒有隨便增加，應該是這樣的概念啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以數位貨幣不是數字貨幣啦！因為中國現在在實驗數字貨幣，它實體的東西完全都不要啦！是不是會有這個問題？所以是數位貨幣還是數字貨幣，要弄清楚。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過有些時候他們是習慣用數字貨幣，當然有些時候會搞不清楚，這就像一個外國的名字在翻譯的時候，有的是翻這樣，有的是翻那樣，沒有一個共同的標準啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：現在有另外一個問題，你要發行數位貨幣，對於使用者來說，像我們一般在社會上活動的人在用錢的時候，你要尊重沒有能力使用數位貨幣，或是沒有意願使用數位貨幣的人，這個如何保障他們的權利？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒錯，所以我才會說，如果我們決定CBDC也要推出去之後，事實上現金還是會留存的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我舉例，已經有我的朋友去日本觀光回來跟我講說，日本有的店不能用現金了，全部都要用pay的，他覺得非常不方便，坦白講很不爽啦！那我也只是暫時安慰他說，那這樣子的店，你就不要去消費嘛！所以他去日本觀光的時候，他能夠選擇的店家就變少了，當然會影響到他的權益啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：我在講的就是這個，有的人沒有能力使用數位貨幣，社會上雖然都已經在數位化，但是有的人他就是對傳統使用的方法抱持一個比較安定的心態，不願意隨便變更，這是第一種人，這是沒有能力使用數位貨幣的人；第二個是沒有意願，像我就沒有意願，我為什麼所有的消費都要被你掌握得清清楚楚？我為什麼一定要留下跡證？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員講的我們也都考慮到了，所以才會說在我們推動的過程當中是漸進式的，委員講的沒有錯，這個就是我的習慣，如果說大家的習慣已經都改變的話，那麼CBDC就可以單獨使用，現金就會慢慢退到旁邊去了，這個是一個選擇的自由。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們擔心的是，當現有的現鈔慢慢退到旁邊去的時候，不能夠為了多數人可以使用CBDC數位貨幣，就去忽略那少數人不願意使用數位貨幣的權益啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！就中央銀行的立場來講，這個我們會考量，我們不會用強迫式的，自由的經濟體系不能用強迫式的，委員的講法是對的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟您提醒，我再講一個數字，當然數字不見得很準確，據入境人數顯示，中國的觀光客大概少掉九成多，當然理由很多，其中有一個很重要的理由是在那個地方的支付系統，外國的觀光客怎麼會用中國的支付系統？他去了中國，中國的店家全部都是用這種電子支付，全部都是用手機掃，使得觀光客在那邊沒辦法消費，這也是使得它的觀光客大幅下降的一個重要原因。我希望無論是金管會、無論是央行、無論是財政部，在考量這些事情的時候要面面俱到。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們贊成你去發展，但是同時必須要保留不願意使用的人的權益，不然有一天說九成的人都已經要用數位貨幣了，那一成的人你自己該死，或是讓店家給你加錢，這樣子的心態是不能接受的。"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得委員講的都沒有錯，我們也有考量到這一點，所以我們的推動是漸進式的。"],["吳委員秉叡：最後再跟你請教一個事情，2019年8月15號我們境外資金匯回專法規定綁的時間是五年，到今年8月五年就期滿了，當然有一些資金已經投資廠商了，有些投資製造業了，有一些資金已經用到哪邊去了，但是還有一部分的資金解禁之後可以進入不動產市場。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我跟委員報告，針對這個議題，事實上我們也有發布新聞稿去說明，基本上到目前為止還沒有動用的是1,380億，這個是要分三年，分三年的話，一年大概四百多億，這四百多億可以投資國內外，也就是說，這四百多億也不是全部都會到房地產去，它是會分散的，因為投資的管道很多，它也可以實質投資，它也可以金融投資、股票，它也可以到國外去，這都可以啊，也不是說這四百多億都會跑到……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以意思是你不是很擔心就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得應該是說它是分散的，當時的規劃就有考慮到這一點。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝您的說明，麻煩請您回座。請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：彭主委，我看中國的金融巨變迫在眉睫，尤其是昨天美國共和黨的黨綱裡面已經規定，如果川普當選之後，對中國要有什麼樣的動作，這裡面當然包括香港。所以現在有一些西方的金融業者在香港準備要……說難聽叫出逃啦！講好聽一點說是要轉到別的地方，我覺得臺灣應該是一個有機會可以吸引到他們的地方，我們能不能構築一個比較好的環境來去爭取這個機會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們正在研究增加我們誘因的機制，這是我們未來建構成為資產管理中心一個很重要的點。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個速度要快喔！因為我看這個巨變，假設川普當選的話，這個巨變搞不好半年、一年就來了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，其實我們內部都有在因應各種假設情況的變化。"],["吳委員秉叡：那也要注意到貨幣兌換的問題，中國的人民幣在我來看是巨幅貶值，通貨膨脹的時間應該是很快，你要有以待之，加油！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員指正。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員質詢。","接著請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.56221875,"end":3.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.148468750000001,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.700343750000002,"end":26.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.351593750000003,"end":42.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.52221875,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.06221875,"end":43.180343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.180343750000006,"end":43.399718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.150343750000005,"end":47.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.56784375,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.681593750000005,"end":48.985343750000006},{"speak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09:49:31","影片長度":"00:11:42","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:37:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T09:49:31+08:00","duration":702,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":218,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時37分）好，謝謝主席，是不是請核安會主委、台電的曾文生董事長，還有經濟部連次長？請三位。"],["主席：請三位官員備質詢。謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：好，非常謝謝三位。核能問題大家非常關心，雖然經濟部才是真正的能源主管機關，但是有關核電延役的問題卻落在核安會這個三級單位。大家可以看到各部會只要提到核能都是互踢皮球，經濟部說能源規劃是國發會；國發會說不是，他們只是幕僚；同樣的，面對核安問題，核安會說他們只是負責核安問題，所以核能變成三不管地帶。我們今天就把事情說清楚，倘若今天修法通過的話，請問次長，誰可以提出延役計畫的申請？"],["連次長錦漳：照法令要由台電提出……"],["柯委員志恩：要台電提出申請，所以台電如果不提出申請計畫，即使這一部法通過還是被動地躺在那邊，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：一定要在整個法令……"],["柯委員志恩：對，我現在只問，我們今天討論老半天，每個人都想要來抗爭，昨天晚上外面一堆人抗爭，一直討論這個法。這部法如果今天修過，台電卻不送出延役計畫的話，是不是被動地躺在那邊而已，是不是？只要回答是或不是。"],["連次長錦漳：不是……"],["柯委員志恩：是嘛！好，我們請台電董事長。"],["連次長錦漳：我講不是。"],["柯委員志恩：好，經濟部長說2030年前臺灣絕對不缺電，意思是說，這部法即使通過，2030年前不缺電的狀況下，台電應該不會提出延役的申請吧？"],["曾董事長文生：台電要做任何延役的工作都要先做安全的自我檢查。"],["柯委員志恩：我當然知道，每個人都是。"],["曾董事長文生：你現在提的意見是說意願上，但我們現在最重要的是客觀條件上到底能不能做。"],["柯委員志恩：所以如果你們可以打包票說2030年前不會缺電，當然延役就不是問題，你們也就不會提出所謂的延役申請計畫嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，現在的狀況是法修完後到底是什麼樣的狀況……"],["柯委員志恩：法修完就是把年限撤除，讓你更有彈性空間。"],["曾董事長文生：台電自己的安全評估狀況是如何，這些都要有一些根據……"],["柯委員志恩：好，沒問題，曾董事長，我等一下告訴你，台電的安全狀況是怎麼樣！我想很清楚，到目前為止，大家都鎖定在李遠哲及童子賢的發言，當然，郭智輝部長也是喔，我想請次長也來解讀一下。童子賢應該是沒有被委員請吃飯，所以目前為止他還是停留在認為核能還是一個解方。而郭部長說只要修法通過，核二、核三延役2、30年不是問題，核電不是基載電力，但也是備援電力；吃了一頓飯之後，他馬上說沒有考慮過備載的部分，結果最近他接受訪問，又改口說任何的電我們都需要。次長，你跟他比較接近，可不可以瞭解哪一個才是真正經濟部長的說法？到底目前你們的態度怎麼樣？到底是廢核，還是續核？能源到底誰說了算？"],["連次長錦漳：針對民間人士，我們不去做評論。"],["柯委員志恩：民間的人士？你指的是童子賢叫民間人士，你不評論，好，那經濟部長你評論一下。"],["連次長錦漳：我們部長的意思是說，在多元的電力供應下，我們已經做好妥善的電力供應的規劃準備。"],["柯委員志恩：你這有講跟沒有講一樣，我們還是聽不懂到底經濟部長要幹嘛？到目前為止，也沒有人知道他到底每一天……只要是一頓飯局或出國一次，回來之後，每個說法都不一致。我現在只問一個非常客觀的問題，核一廠除役從申請到許可，大概花4年時間，核二呢？大家念茲在茲，已經進入除役狀況，但各位看到沒有，從2018年提出除役報告之後，6年了，還沒有進入除役。上次我質詢陳東陽主委時，主委告訴我說因為有廠界爭議問題，所以管制範圍延伸到海邊，還有一些相關土地問題，所以到目前為止，什麼時候可以解決也不知道。至於核三的除役，2021年提出除役報告，現在還卡在經濟部，還沒有辦所謂的公聽會，連環境部許可的環評報告也沒有拿到，說實在的，根據經濟部、台電有關核一廠除役的審議時程，到底要多久你們才有辦法進入審議階段？我只請問一個問題，核三廠在2025年5月底前，有沒有辦法拿到除役許可？有沒有辦法？這是很正確的問題啊！時程就擺在這個地方啊！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，包括你提到的延役一樣，它都有安全申請，所以有很多行政程序的審查，還有安全的審查、環評的審查，這個都不是我們事業單位能夠決定要多久的時間……"],["柯委員志恩：那誰應該負責？台電認為應該誰來負責會比較有一個更主導性的規劃？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我還是要說一下，我們現在有一些相關議題，就是有這些審查，譬如像環境影響評估，我們也不只是這些除役的問題要審查很久，有一大堆案子我們都審查非常久……"],["柯委員志恩：是，所以我就告訴你，你一方面宣稱非核家園是不可放棄的目標，可是真的核電廠要除役的時候，我真的覺得是拖拖拉拉，你看核一就要6、7年，核二、核三的除役計畫難道也是這樣子嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：委員我們講一下……"],["柯委員志恩：是，你們請說。"],["曾董事長文生：你提到核二，核二的狀況是這樣子，它環評通過了，現在只是在修正邊界，但真正要能夠進到除役，要乾貯能夠實施，而乾貯的這一件事情，我們最近已經跟新北市談出一個結果，希望趕快送審，也能夠讓核二的除役順利進行……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你預估……"],["曾董事長文生：如果核一除役的乾貯工作能夠順利進行……"],["柯委員志恩：其實你們告訴大家什麼時候……"],["曾董事長文生：這個審查過程就超過10年了。"],["柯委員志恩：沒有，你們告訴大家要除役的時候，就應該提出時程，所以我剛剛特別提到，核三廠在2025年5月前有沒有辦法順利除役？我只問這個問題。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，它就停機了，然後接下來就會進入除役狀態，只要環評跟核安審查通過，就會進入除役狀態。"],["柯委員志恩：是，誠如我剛剛講的那個部分，2018年到現在為止，都還是一個問號，所以到底什麼時間點，我們目前都還是不知道。","好，那我現在請問連次長，非核家園的推動，上一次我們詢問第六次，也就是最近一次非核家園小組開會時間是在3年前的2021年，當時本來應該要討論有關中期暫貯存場址，你們講東講西，然後我上次問了陳東陽主委，主委很坦白的說從2023年之後就沒有再開會了，然後希望趕快召開第七次會議，討論低階核廢料解方問題。但是被這個小組打了回票，不開就是不開。我想請問台電，中期暫貯存場的地理條件，所謂的選址原則，到底是不是還在等非核家園推動小組來拍板？請問什麼時候可以討論這個問題？我今天從頭到尾的質詢，你都告訴我安全很重要，我也知道安全很重要，可是很多進程就還卡在那個地方。你看，我們就講個最現實的，第七次會議有關中期暫貯存場的問題，什麼時候可以解決？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我先解釋一下什麼是中期暫貯存……"],["柯委員志恩：你不用解釋，你只要告訴我第七次會議什麼時候要召開？大家都想要開會，2023年開完之後就沒有再召開會議，我上次已經提醒過了，你們還是沒有很積極處理，所以我只問，什麼時候開這個會議？次長還是這個會議的副召集人喔！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，這個不是非核家園小組開會就可以決定的，因為重點是這樣，它會回到跟現在低階核廢料處理的問題一樣，有地方公投等等相關問題，所以經濟部今天在報告中也特別提到，核電的使用要有始有終，如果頭開了，尾巴就要能夠解決，同時要能夠一起解決，才有辦法讓我們真正成為永續……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是嘛！大家都瞭解，問題是你們開了老半天的進程，連一個最基本可以透露給大家知道的會議紀錄，還有一些相關進度都沒有，到目前為止，問你們結果，都還是跟我扯一些什麼安全問題、核廢料問題等等，這些問題不是從10年前討論到現在都還一樣嗎？我剛才已經開宗明義講了，今天這樣一個討論只是提供大家更多延役空間的平臺，但如果台電不主動申請、不主動送出計畫，這個法案即使今天通過了，還是會躺在那邊，因為主動權還是在經濟部，還是在經濟部責成的台電，不是嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，你現在提這個法令，其實它就有它的價值意涵存在，而不是說它是一個被動的……"],["柯委員志恩：好，所以你贊不贊成今天我們提出這樣一個提供你們更彈性空間的修法？你贊不贊成？你個人贊不贊成？"],["曾董事長文生：我應該要跟委員報告，這件事情是把過去的限制拿掉。"],["柯委員志恩：對。"],["曾董事長文生：好，但這個限制拿掉，要做各種的評估……"],["柯委員志恩：一定的啊！"],["曾董事長文生：可以做的評估，我們當然要做，因為所有的安全就是都要做，還有包括可不可以使用……"],["柯委員志恩：董事長，我打岔一下，這個年限……"],["曾董事長文生：但是委員，我還是要跟你報告，你說這是被動的事情，坦白講，它就是一個清楚的價值指向……"],["柯委員志恩：價值指向……"],["曾董事長文生：所以它怎麼會只是一個被動的事情。"],["柯委員志恩：那你認不認可這個價值？請問你，認不認可這個價值？誠如你剛剛提到的，即使這個法通過，包括核安，包括台電，還是要經過一連串的安全檢視，這個安全檢視可能要花費3年、7年到10年時間，對不對？這都還是需要，同島一命啊！我只能說這個法、延役的法通過，只是提供你們更有彈性的空間，反而讓你們有一個解套的部分……"],["曾董事長文生：我完全同意，就是國家命運是一體的，這件事情完全同意……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是嘛！所以安全問題我們當然也會考慮。"],["曾董事長文生：它是有評估的空間，這個是確定……"],["柯委員志恩：好，那你就直接講嘛，這個法，我們認為是在幫你們做更彈性的解套空間，你贊不贊同？你贊不贊同？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我這樣說啦，你現在一直講說這是我們的事情，法修正完以後，就是我們的事情，但我覺得這個法的修正就已經有一個價值意向存在了，我怎麼可能是這樣切割？我真的是完全不瞭解……"],["柯委員志恩：我沒有給你切割啊！我們在這個法裡面，其實是……"],["曾董事長文生：因為所有的立法說明裡面提到的都不是這個意思……"],["柯委員志恩：切到核安，包括經濟部，包括台電，我們等一下在討論法時，再好好來修正……"],["曾董事長文生：我們真的是……"],["柯委員志恩：董事長，我完全不認為這是一個切割，誠如我剛剛所提到的，每次問到這個問題，經濟部都沒有辦法回應，然後就告訴我是國發會；國發會說它是幕僚單位，這是核安問題；核安會又告訴我說它只是負責安全的問題，所以我們只能透過這樣的討論，請你告訴我們整體的規劃。董事長，我完全瞭解，等一下討論這個法的時候，我們就一一來討論，它不是價值取向，我告訴你，它是一個非常大的問題，我也不會完全只是把它推到你們台電身上，這當然不是台電可以處理的，但你總要告訴我，政府的政策方向到底在哪裡，你們的價值有沒有跟過去是一致的？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：請林委員宜瑾發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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一個價值意向在了我怎麼可能是這樣切割我真的是完全不了解我沒有跟你切割我們在那個法裡面其實是切法核安包括經濟包括台電"},{"start":650.295,"end":656.876,"text":"我們等下在法社好好來做修正一下。董事長,我不覺得這是一個,我完全不認為這是一個切割。這只是你們在承諾我剛所提到的。每次問到這個問題,經濟部沒有辦法回應,就告訴我國發,國發告訴幕僚單位說這是核安問題,核安會又告訴我說他們只是一個安全的問題。所以我們只是透過這樣的一個討論,請告訴我們,整體的規劃我完全了解。"},{"start":677.08,"end":677.1,"text":"案。"}]}},{"id":"154598","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154598","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f886f43039104dd563a39103cf15d5982f7ec06bbf1d30435ce268ef1662321ad75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"09:36:02 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over他"},{"start":427.008,"end":446.296,"text":"他就是說是外溢到臺灣的情況來當然我的意思就是說我們臺灣的一個情況升息降息都要看國際的情況是怎麼樣我們內部我們臺灣目前自己的一個情況是怎麼然後是由理事會來決定到現在為止都還沒有這樣的一個規劃"},{"start":456.332,"end":482.351,"text":"這個房貸族壓力非常大當然我想報告委員就是說利息這個價格它影響的層面也不是只有房地產它也會影響到我們的企業也會影響到我們的個人這些都會所以整個利息的一個利率的決策不是只有光看房地產"},{"start":485.136,"end":485.657,"text":"有請彭主委"},{"start":496.187,"end":520.404,"text":"委員好 彭主任你好那今晚會的報告裡面說台灣為了運營無現金社會的這個到來所以朝向2025年要達到這種行動支付90%的目標啦 對不對那這邊有提到說要成立金融市場管理處創新啦創新管理處"},{"start":521.405,"end":531.521,"text":"那這樣子在金融科技園區臺灣的金融科技園區跟馬來西亞金融科技協會簽訂的末日那由數位"},{"start":533.202,"end":552.573,"text":"馬來西亞數位經濟局舉辦台灣金融科技發表日加速媒合產創的商機對接當地生態園區的資源、拓展台灣金融科技海外版圖請教主委這項MOU的內容能不能時間有限嗎?"},{"start":555.288,"end":574.404,"text":"這裏可不可以請我們那個那個我們負責規劃中規處的同仁跟委員做個說明,謝謝。是跟委員報告那個是我們創新園區跟這個馬來西亞這邊所簽署的我們這邊沒有沒有掌握他們的那個簽署的內容我們會後可以再跟他要"},{"start":574.997,"end":580.423,"text":"金融科技會帶來更高效、更便捷的金融服務同時也會促進金融市場的競爭與創新行動支付、虛擬銀行、P2P、網路借貸等等這些"},{"start":594.958,"end":595.438,"text":"主席彭主席"},{"start":615.864,"end":630.813,"text":"創新實驗條例分兩部分一個是扶植金融科技業的部分我想這部分我們會持續再做再來就是有關沙盒實驗的部分因為現在案源比較少可能在裡面的機制設計我們都在檢討中好的謝謝顏寬恒委員"}]}},{"id":"154597","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154597","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8d2b21dab48146ebda9bb3959728069a07ec06bbf1d30435cfeac053b3bfb4f645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:26:48 - 09:41:21","影片長度":"00:14:33","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:26:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T09:41:21+08:00","duration":873,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":141,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時26分）謝謝主席，麻煩顧部長，先請政戰局長。"],["主席：請顧部長還有……"],["王委員定宇：部長你先坐，先請政戰局長。"],["主席：政戰局局長。"],["王委員定宇：局長，今年漢光40號的乖乖是你們做的還是陸軍自己做的？"],["陳局長育琳：今年的這個乖乖是國防部為了推展全民國防，希望民眾能夠關心國防事務。"],["王委員定宇：你知道我們多困擾嗎？現在大家要買卻買不到。"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：這是一個小事情，我今天特別把乖乖帶來，當然台積電的機臺上面都會放乖乖。"],["陳局長育琳：是，民間資訊業很喜歡。"],["王委員定宇：這個事情是代表著創意、代表著有趣、代表跟人民之間的親近，好事！戰訓本務當然重要，但是要用哪個介面讓人民看到國軍在做什麼，因為這樣有好多人就開始說漢光40號是什麼事情，所以不管是哪個單位做的，這不是顧部長做的吧？乖乖是你做的還是誰做的？我建議，你們現在好像是限量？"],["陳局長育琳：是，限量。"],["王委員定宇：市面上好像也沒有了。"],["陳局長育琳：我要瞭解一下，因為我們限量2,500箱。"],["王委員定宇：我不知道其他委員怎麼樣，本席就這麼一包，我連拆開來吃都不敢，就這一包而已，我建議在漢光演習期間，如果我們有這樣的創意發想，我以前看過小朋友拿著國旗在路邊，以前在軍演的時候會有一些鼓舞軍心的事情，我倒覺得這是滿好的一件事情，一個季節限量版讓有興趣的人可以買到，上面可以傳遞一些不管對募兵或……"],["陳局長育琳：漢光小學堂。"],["王委員定宇：漢光要傳遞軍民一體或者是全民民防的訊息在上面，本小利多，它還可以賣錢，這個事情先讓你參考。我接下來請部長。"],["陳局長育琳：謝謝委員。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝，所以到底是不是政戰局用的？"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有冤枉你？"],["陳局長育琳：沒有，這是我們製作的，心戰大隊……"],["王委員定宇：好，心戰大隊做的嗎？"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為我以前看你們空飄氣球到中國也有類似這樣的東西，你先請回。","部長，我們回到相關不管叫DIU，或者是我們軍事裝備的研製、採購等等，本席有幾個問題要就教於您。第一個，這個看起來無聊，但是很重要的一件事情，我們在政府採購法裡面，有關軍事機關財物勞務採購減價收受作業規定，我今天特別拿出「減價收受」，我們常常在發包比方3,000萬或者1億的某一個品項的時候，當然要如期如質交貨，但是會有物價調整、會有原物料缺乏、會有關鍵零組件突然尋商不到，就會產生變數，或者像蓋營舍、蓋砲校，在物價調整的時候，經費不夠了，我們常常就會追加預算或是減項，還有一種就是減價收受。","追加預算或者是減項發包有相關的規定，你不能高到一個比例，像最近基隆市追加預算可以追加到超過50%以上，那個都罕見。我今天特別focus在所謂的減價收受的部分，減價收受須符合六個條件，例如現在有一個標案，你標到了，結果你做不出來或做出來的成品不符合標案設定的品項、項目或數值的時候，在符合這六個條件的情況下，就可以打折給他買進來。部長，這個狀況你應該瞭解？"],["顧部長立雄：我當律師的時候有處理過類似的案件。"],["王委員定宇：這裡面會有一些可能產生弊端的地方，值得思考的部分，第一個，他為什麼後面會做不出來？有一種可能是低價搶標，比方說，這一個裝備在國際市場上都是一億，他用5,000萬標到了，你又不能用made in china的，他到時候交貨就會有困難。還有一種情形是，他以為搶了便宜標到了，可能被特定廠商把供應鏈掌握住了，他根本買不到貨，所以像之前整流器，上一次中科院爆發一個整流器弊案，小東西，結果他去找原廠，原廠就是不賣給他，他就跑去浙江找一個廠做假的來供應。還有一種情形是，這個標案原來設定的價格就太低，所以正常的、有能力的廠商不進來投標，變成一些良莠不齊，只要有生意做就切進來的。","所以，減價收受是末端，源頭的標案可能有很多樣態，根據減價收受的作業規定，有六種情形可以減價收受。我這邊要提醒不管是採購室、中科院、軍備局或者是部長這裡，常常各單位在結案的壓力下，就用減價收受把案子處理掉，我不知道部長還是各位主管，有沒有看過這個情形？"],["顧部長立雄：減價收受，當然我來國防部這裡還沒有碰到，但是我過去在擔任律師的期間，減價收受確實是一個，對主管來講，做決定的時候，是很困難的一件事情……"],["王委員定宇：很大的考驗喔，很大的考驗。"],["顧部長立雄：我記得好像是馬特拉……"],["王委員定宇：馬特拉也是啊！"],["顧部長立雄：對，但是它就還可以用，只是它……"],["王委員定宇：我現在舉幾個樣態，比方說軍用車輛某一個零部件，標案是指定一定要什麼規格，現在供貨供應的東西可以用，不影響安全，就像整流器，也可以過電，只是跟原來要求的產地不一樣；或者它沒有用到中國的產地，但是可能規格不一樣；甚至於防彈背心，防彈背心可以減價收受，我都覺得很不解。有的東西就是過關跟不過關，可以不可以，我不能打六折，打七折，部長，你懂我的意思嗎？所以我會建議部長，部長是法律的專業，在減價收受上可能要有一個team去review一下，我只能點到這裡。"],["顧部長立雄：對，減價收受就我的瞭解，我過去處理的相關經驗，都要經過相關的專業，包括法律專業跟使用單位很審慎的評估……"],["王委員定宇：所以，這一題我先提到這裡，比方我舉例，我曾經跟陸軍討論過，像我們在偵測無人機，參謀長，你不用上來，就偵測無人機，它在距離六公里、幾公里要有什麼能力，那是絕對標準，結果我們設定的評分標準竟然是好啦，你沒有六公里，那我給你70%的分數，本來要買三項整合的，到最後有一個應該是零分的，就只買到兩項整合，結果國軍就當了冤大頭。","所以減價收受是各位擔任主管，在做決定的時候最大的痛苦，也是最大的陷阱。你可能收了品質不合規的，它整體還可以用，但是這個標案在源頭就作弊了，或者這個標案可能會有一些問題，所以我今天特別先點出減價收受，請部長review一下。","未來我會拿一些具體個案給各位，我也建議，尤其剛接主管的，像李世強剛接中科院，這種剛接主管的，比如戰規司，剛接主管的該看一下既有的減價收受的案件，看一下，不管是營建類或者是其他的。如果它品項的品質都達標，只是原來要求一千件，他只做了六百件，這個還可以討論，但是如果在品質上堪用卻減價收受的，這個都值得懷疑。甚至我們應該建立一個規則，品質未達標根本不可以用減價收受，這個給部長做參考，因為它的樣態太多，沒辦法每一個都把它列出來。","我今天要請教部長，上一次我們國防委員會有排一個考察是到軍備局所屬XT-112的兵工廠去看，那個是205廠嘛。當天有一位沒有當過兵的委員叫林憶君委員，他今天不在，他打滿靶欸，滿靶，打得比參謀長的分數還高。滿靶的原因後來我們就去看，後來我們也去試用了，發現有配備近戰瞄準鏡，四倍的近戰瞄準鏡，對於訓練射擊的準度、效率跟訓練時間的縮短，有非常大的幫助。我們到現在還在用覘孔瞄準，可是在戰場上如果要用瞄準鏡的話，我們平常都沒有這樣的訓練，特戰有而已，所以在XT-112這個裝備上，我們如果採購飛彈，採購所有的武器都追求打得更遠、射得更精準、更易形成戰力，訓練時間成本縮短，那為什麼我們的步槍兵，我們單兵的步槍不需要這樣的標準？所以，部長，我們未來有沒有可能讓這樣的光學瞄具，而且這個不用對外採購，是我們自己兵工廠生產的，能不能列為全軍標配，有沒有可能？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，陸軍參謀長向您報告，如委員所說的，新式的步槍已經從機械瞄準改變為光學瞄準，效能的確是很好，我們的整規書（整體規劃書）也會在這個月送到行政院，目前我們的籌購，現階段是先以特戰跟下車戰鬥的……"],["王委員定宇：時間的關係，我提出此事讓部長思考，當然要花經費，但是我們也不是要求一年，可以是在五年或幾年內完成。我們現在新式步槍有幾個決策需要參考，部長，這個很重要，我要提醒你三點。就我瞭解，我們兵工廠有在研製6.8口徑的步槍，6.8口徑跟我們現在用的5.56口徑，因為北約用6.8的，美軍的新式步槍用6.8的，共軍用6.8的，我們現在國軍還是5.56的口徑，所以如果軍備局研製的新式步槍有6.8，重量差異不大，那我們整批換裝是不是要用T-112還是要其他的，這是一個決策要思考的。因為6.8口徑子彈比較大，所攜彈藥的數量比較小，但是打中的時候，對方不能動的機率比較大；5.56打中的話，對方還可以往前衝，跟防彈背心形成矛與盾的競爭。所以我沒有說有絕對答案，也就是說6.8正在研製中，聽說今年底會出來，那我們現制的T-112是好槍，坦白講K2也不錯，國際評價也很好，所以當我們要換裝新式步槍的時候，到底要進到6.8，跟北約、美軍一樣，還是維持5.56，這是一個重大的決策，因為這一決定，20年以後再看下一批了。","第二個重要決策是，我們的步槍要更換，那我們的現役部隊，至少第一線部隊，不是只有特戰，如果能夠配上光學瞄具提高它的精準度，他的打擊能力提高，而且最重要的是，步槍兵的訓練時間縮短，效率提高。如此在平時可以提高訓練成效，縮短射擊訓練時間，大幅提升精準度；但是如果在特殊時候或者是在戰時，後備要形成戰力，形成有效的步槍兵，那個訓練時間就非常非常的重要。這個請部長思考，我們可以分年把它撥上去。","謝謝主席給我時間，我最後一句話就是，我剛剛跟陳永康委員在討論，我們現在空軍有整個建制部隊在美國那邊受訓，陸軍也有營級聯兵營兩個營在美國受訓，美國也有派人來我們這邊協訓，但是我們現在海軍並沒有在美方的艦艇上訓練的，至少就我知道沒有，但這個是很重要的。","再來，剛才羅美玲委員問的驗證，我們現在在場的所有將領都沒有在美國的相關實驗室，跑那個模擬是要工程師跑，要不然會變動畫。所以可不可以爭取到這兩個？就是海軍在艦艇上進行跨國的協訓，或者是我們相關的人員能夠進到他們的實驗室去做一定的訓練，請部長做參考，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：委員不需要我回答嗎？"],["王委員定宇：再借我30秒就好了。"],["顧部長立雄：6.8公釐的步槍研發會在今年開始進行，在113年底以前完成研製跟交軍的測評，那麼您剛剛提到的那些瞄準器設備，我們逐步到位，逐年編列然後到戰鬥人員……"],["王委員定宇：就是說全部的戰鬥人員都要有。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：那剛剛講的海軍，我覺得這個有一點比較機敏，我想不適宜在這個地方跟委員描述。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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in China的"},{"start":256.633,"end":283.009,"text":"他到時候交貨就會有困難那還有一種情形是他以為搶了便宜標到了可能被別特定廠商把那個供應鏈掌握住了他根本買不到貨所以之前整流器有沒有以前上次中科院爆發一個整流器小東西結果呢他去找原廠原廠就是不賣給他他就跑去找這樣吧找一個廠做假的來供應還有一種情形是"},{"start":284.784,"end":302.456,"text":"這個標案呢原來就用低價太低的價格設定所以正常的有能力的廠商不進來會變成一些良誘不齊只要有生意做他就切進來的所以減價收受是末端源頭的標案是可能有很多樣態"},{"start":303.777,"end":329.071,"text":"那這裡面有6種情形可以減價收受我這邊要提醒我們不管是採購室、中科院、軍備局或者是部長這裡我們常常各單位在結案的壓力下在結案的壓力下就用減價收受把這個案子處理我不知道部長還是各位這個主管有沒有看過這個情形"},{"start":332.057,"end":356.269,"text":"檢架收受當然我來國防部這裡還沒有碰到但是我過去在擔任律師檢架收受確實是一個對主管來講做決定的時候是一個很困難的一件事情很大的考驗我記得好像是馬特拉馬特拉也是對但是他就還可以他可以用只是他所以現在就是說我現在舉幾個樣態就是說比方說"},{"start":359.858,"end":381.364,"text":"我這個車子軍用車輛某一個零部件標案的時候是指定一定要什麼的他現在供貨供的東西可以用不影響安全就像整流器也可以過電只是跟原來要求的產地不一樣他沒有用到中國的產地他可能規格不一樣甚至於防彈背心防彈背心可以減價收售我都覺得很"},{"start":387.694,"end":396.906,"text":"有的東西是過關跟不過關可以不可以我不能打六折打七折部長懂我意思嗎所以我會建議部長部長是法律的專業"},{"start":398.482,"end":419.017,"text":"在減價收受上可能要一個team去review一下我只能點到這裡這個減價收受我的了解齁我過去的處理相關經驗都要經過相關專業律法律專業跟這個使用單位他們的一個很深深的評估啊我這一題我先提了解比方我舉例我曾經跟陸軍討論過像我們在偵測無人機齁這個參謀長你不用上來不用上來就偵測無人機"},{"start":425.66,"end":453.194,"text":"他一個距離6公里幾公里要有什麼能力那是絕對標準結果我們設定的評分竟然是好啦你沒有6公里那我給你70%的分數本來要買三項整合的到最後呢有一個拿根本不應該應該是0分的就只買到兩項整合就國軍就當了冤大頭所以減價收售是各位主管擔任擔任主管在做決定的時候最大痛苦也是最大的陷阱"},{"start":454.042,"end":468.147,"text":"你可能收了品質他整體還可以用但是這個標案在源頭就作弊了或者這個標案可能會有些問題所以我特別今天請檢架收受請部長"},{"start":469.773,"end":498.999,"text":"Review一下那我未來會拿一些具體個案給各位那我也建議尤其剛接主管的像李士強剛接中科院這種剛接主管的站櫃司剛接主管的該看一下既有的減價收收的案件看一下不管是營建類啦或者是他品項的品質都達標只是原來要求1000件他只做了600件這個還可以討論但是如果在品質上堪用"},{"start":500.785,"end":523.219,"text":"卻減價收售的這個都值得懷疑甚至我們應該建立一個規則品質未達標根本不可以用減價收售這個我給部長做參考因為這個樣態太多沒辦法每一個都把它列出來我接下來請教部長我們上一次我們國防委員會有排這一個考察到我們軍備局所屬ST112的變工廠去看那個是205嗎"},{"start":530.92,"end":549.39,"text":"當天有一位沒有當過兵的委員叫林義軍委員他今天不在他打滿把耶滿把打得比參謀長分數還高滿把的原因我們就去看了後來我們也去試用了後來發現有配備"},{"start":551.181,"end":573.472,"text":"這一個近戰的瞄準鏡那個4倍的近戰瞄準鏡對於訓練射擊的準度、效率跟訓練的時間的縮短有非常大的幫助我們到現在還是在用瞻孔瞄準可是在戰場上如果要用瞄準鏡的話我們平常都沒有這樣訓練特戰有而已所以ST-112在這個裝備上"},{"start":579.281,"end":607.421,"text":"我們如果採購飛彈採購所有的武器都追求打得更遠射得更精準更易形成戰力訓練時間成本縮短那為什麼我們的步槍兵我們的單兵這樣子的步槍不需要這樣的標準所以我不知道部長我們未來有沒有可能讓這樣子的光學瞄具而且這個不用對外採購是我們自己兵工廠生產的能不能全軍變標配有沒有可能"},{"start":608.527,"end":609.088,"text":"報告委員陸軍參謀長向您報告"},{"start":612.458,"end":613.338,"text":"時間的關係我這是給部長思考"},{"start":642.248,"end":663.615,"text":"當然要花經費,但是我們也不是一年,我們可以五年或多少。就是說,我們現在新式步槍,有幾個決策需要參考。部長,這個很重要,三點要提醒你。就我了解,我們兵工廠有在研製6.8口徑的。"},{"start":666.729,"end":690.841,"text":"6.8口徑跟我們現在的5.56口徑因為北約用6.8的美軍的新式步槍用6.8的共軍用6.8的那我們現在國軍還是5.56的這個口徑所以如果軍備局研製的新式步槍有6.8重量差異不大那我們整批換裝是不是要用T112還是要其他的這是一個決策要思考的"},{"start":691.701,"end":710.035,"text":"因為它子彈比較大、吸彈量的數量比較小但是打中的時候對方不能動的機率比較大5.56打中了對方還可以往前衝跟防彈背心形成毛與盾的競爭所以我沒有說絕對答案也就是說6.8正在研製中聽說今年底會出來"},{"start":710.956,"end":739.123,"text":"那我們現值的T112是好槍坦白講K2也不錯國際評價也很好所以當我們要換專心式步槍的時候到底要進到6.8跟北約美軍一樣還是維持5.56這是一個重大決策因為這一決定20年以後再看下一批了第二個重要決策是我這樣子的步槍要更換那我們的現役部隊至少第一線部隊不是只有特戰如果能夠配上光學瞄具"},{"start":740.203,"end":757.55,"text":"他的精準度提高他的打擊能力提高而且最重要是步槍兵的訓練的時間縮短效率提高這個時候在平時可以有提高訓練成效縮短射擊訓練時間大幅提升精準度但是如果在特殊時候或者在暫時的時候"},{"start":759.432,"end":773.088,"text":"後備要形成戰力形成有效的步槍兵那個訓練時間就非常非常的重要這個請部長思考我們可以分年把它播上去那謝謝主席給我的時間我最後一句話就是我剛剛跟"},{"start":774.389,"end":787.287,"text":"陳永康委員在這邊討論我們現在空軍在美國有整個建制部隊在這邊受訓陸軍也有營級聯兵營兩個營在美國受訓美國也有派人來我們這邊協訓但是我們現在海軍"},{"start":791.428,"end":816.13,"text":"海軍並沒有在美方的艦艇上訓練的至少就我知道沒有但這個是很重要的再來剛才羅美林委員問的驗證我們現在在場的所有的將領都沒有在美國的相關的實驗室跑那個模擬是要工程師跑要不然會變動畫所以可不可以爭取到這兩個就是海軍在艦艇上的"},{"start":817.432,"end":826.596,"text":"謝謝。謝謝。"},{"start":828.411,"end":852.747,"text":"委員不需要我回答這個6.8公里的步槍研發會在今年開始進行那禮拜一十三年底以前完成研製跟交軍的測評那麼您剛剛提到的那個那些瞄準器的一個設備我們逐步到位逐年編列然後到戰鬥人員就全部的戰鬥人員都要好 謝謝那剛剛講的海軍我覺得這一點有點"},{"start":857.85,"end":858.832,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154596","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154596","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f870e75851ec4b1243ca0ece664f026f7b7ec06bbf1d30435c143847ea1a8270d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:28:29 - 09:37:33","影片長度":"00:09:04","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:28:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T09:37:33+08:00","duration":544,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":168,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時28分）謝謝召委，有請經濟部連次長、台電曾董事長及核安會陳主委。"],["主席：好，請三位。"],["連次長錦漳：委員早。"],["萬委員美玲：好，首先我先就教連次長，上個月賴清德總統成立了三大任務編組委員會，預計每季都要定期來開會，這個核電廠延役的問題會在國家氣候變遷對策委員會中來討論，這個月底也即將要第一次開會了。請問一下經濟部，你們知道氣候變遷委員會要討論的題目是哪些嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：主要是討論有一些能源結構，還有核電相關的問題……"],["萬委員美玲：請你對著麥克風好嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：主要討論能源結構，還有一些核電相關的問題。"],["萬委員美玲：所以到底要討論哪些項目，你並不知道？"],["連次長錦漳：因為那個還沒有很清楚的輪廓出來。"],["萬委員美玲：還沒有很清楚喔！來，本席告訴你，要討論淨零路徑、綠能、減碳、綠色與數位轉型、永續綠生活、綠色金融及國土永續調適等七大議題。這個總統府委員會是上位的氣候治理角色，但是真正執行落實的還是在行政院的各部會，所以經濟部是不能不知道的啊！","次長，我們提到2023年能源占比，綠電占了9.5%，比核電的6.3%還要多，可是氣候變遷對策委員會的副召集人童子賢說，綠能是間歇性能源，沒有能力提供穩定的供電。經濟部認為綠能有辦法提供穩定的供電嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：綠能發電我們一定要搭配儲能，它可以提供……"],["萬委員美玲：你只要告訴我你同不同意童子賢的說法。"],["連次長錦漳：民間委員的意見我們不便置評。"],["萬委員美玲：好，那我就單純問你，你認為綠能可以穩定的供電嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：一定要搭配儲能，這樣可以提供穩定的……"],["萬委員美玲：所以在有些條件之下未必能，不一定能，因此你也否定了童子賢的說法。我請教一下，以後相關的能源議題到底要聽誰的？"],["連次長錦漳：政府應該會好好做完整的規劃。"],["萬委員美玲：我們也希望如此，但是現在看起來好像沒有好好規劃。"],["連次長錦漳：有，我們有完整規劃。"],["萬委員美玲：如果按照你們現在所說的，我們有辦法穩定的供電，我就講本席的選區，為什麼從4月到現在不斷地停電，一直在停電，一直在跳電？甚至於進入夏季以後，到7月1號、2號、3號，桃園還是連續三天跳電，現在連部立桃園醫院都停電，連機場都跳電。您知道嗎？部立桃園醫院跳電那一天的狀況還好是運氣好，沒有出人命。醫院跳電何其嚴重？機場跳電何其重大？現在口口聲聲左一句不缺電、右一句不缺電。台電進入狀況好嗎？5月份卓院長來桃園視察的時候，有說會全力穩定桃園地區的供電，今年也投入了8億改善線路跟有弱點的設備，兩個月過去了，現在我們看到到處停電、跳電，又是小動物出沒，哪來那麼多小動物出沒？部立桃園醫院停電那一天大家非常不能接受，誰能保證每一次運氣都這麼好，都不會出大事？我們發現停電、跳電一下說是小動物，一下又說是線路老舊等等，從來不承認是供電不穩、供電不足。","我記得本席在5月29號的時候曾經要求經濟部，在一個月內要由外部專家學者組成停電、跳電原因調查委員會，你們當時也有承諾會組成，針對大規模停電來做，但現在看起來還沒有。我請教一下台電，現在桃園頻頻跳電、停電，是不是其實就是缺電了？"],["曾董事長文生：委員剛才提到的幾個例子都是在備轉容量率非常高的時候發生，所以那個跟供電夠不夠是兩件事情。台電一直說明這些線路的問題，我們知道桃園市這幾年來人口成長最多，也是用電量成長最快的地方，所以有很多饋線的負載已經超過原來的設計，我們現在希望能夠調整它。"],["萬委員美玲：好，曾董，您的這些說法或者藉口我們聽過非常多次了。"],["曾董事長文生：這個就是原因。"],["萬委員美玲：老百姓只有一個想法，怎麼樣能夠保持穩定的供電，不要再讓我們一直停電，不要讓大家民生不方便，甚至造成很大的影響，這是老百姓唯一的要求跟需求。"],["曾董事長文生：這個我們也同意。"],["萬委員美玲：接下來請教一下核安會陳主委，我們今天審查核子反應器管制法，幾位委員提案解除核電廠延役至少要五年前申請的限制，其實這個是為了臺灣的能源政策跟乾淨的發電，我們要多留下這一個選項。主委，我想請教你，今天五個版本的條文如果通過，核三廠會自動延役嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：不會。"],["萬委員美玲：不會，好。如果修正通過以後，營運者台電是不是還是跟現在一樣，第一個，如果我們要延役，要向核安會申請，並且經過審查，審查完以後確認安全無虞才會發給執照，之後才能夠繼續運轉；如果沒有提出申請也無法延役，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：好，依照核安會專業的角度出發，這一次修法通過之後，您認為會不會有核安的疑慮？如果你認為有，又會是什麼？"],["陳主任委員東陽：核安的部分，台電必須先檢視想要延役的機組，它必須寫一個報告。我們有一些規範，像是整體性的老化評估、老化分析、時限安全分析，這個東西在我們所有的規範裡面，目錄大概這麼長……"],["萬委員美玲：主委，本席只是要問您，這一次我們修法的條文通過以後，會不會產生核安的疑慮？就這麼簡單。"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個還要看個別機組的狀態來決定。"],["萬委員美玲：按照我們今天修法的內容，會不會有？"],["陳主任委員東陽：必須看這個機組健康的情況。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，根據相關的審核辦法第十六條來看，如果要繼續運轉，目前是五年前要提出申請，可是我們看到同辦法第十九條有規定，審查期限由主管機關公告之。也就是說，核安會還是有相當的決定權，對不對？如果我們修法拿掉五到十五年這個申請的限制，怎麼審查、審查多久，或怎麼樣確保安全，是不是都還是操之在核安會手上？你認為對嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，但是一切都是以專業、安全考量。"],["萬委員美玲：當然，這個就是核安會的功能，當然要借助專業，怎麼可能任何一個人說了就算數？當然要你們核安會。我們今天要修法把五年這個期限拿掉，事實上，真的是為民進黨政府解套，也讓我們將來多一個選項。","據本席瞭解，核三廠一號機組目前還有438束燃料的儲存空間，足夠容納現在反應爐內157束燃料移出的需要，也不會像核二廠有滿儲的狀況。所以請教你，如果今天修法通過，核三廠一號機組是不是具有延役的條件跟空間？"],["陳主任委員東陽：第一個，我們執照是給40年，所以是到今年7月27，它必須依法停機。如果通過，台電還必須準備一個安全報告，就是我剛才講延役的報告。它要視機組的整個情況更新必要的設備，送到核安會來，我們才會開始審查，這個需要比較長的時間。以上報告。"],["萬委員美玲：所以您還是沒有回答，如果今天修法通過以後，核三廠一號機組有沒有延役的條件跟空間？"],["陳主任委員東陽：目前沒辦法估計，還是要由台電先評估。"],["萬委員美玲：好，確保核能安全其實就是核安會的職責，沒有核安也不會給予執照，也不會到今天核三廠還在運轉。我們今天這樣修法是為了核電延役及備用，留一個選擇的機會，不然只會讓我國在核能跟核安方面的技術停滯，會跟不上國際的發展趨勢。我們希望針對問題，今天希望主委能夠把這個事情說清楚，講明白，不要讓大眾誤解，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝萬美玲委員。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞代）：有請柯志恩召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-21","speakers":["柯志恩","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","羅智強","萬美玲","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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我們賴清泉總統成立了三大任務編組委員會那預計每季都要定期來開會那這個核電廠研議的問題會在國家氣候變遷對策委員會中來討論那這個月底也即將要第一次開會了那請問一下經濟部我們知道這個氣候變遷委員會要討論的題目是哪些嗎"},{"start":44.617,"end":48.621,"text":"主要是討論有一些能源結構還有核電相關的問題主要討論能源結構還有一些核電相關的問題所以到底要討論的項目你並不知道?"},{"start":55.548,"end":59.269,"text":"談論淨零路徑、綠能減碳、綠色與數位轉型、永續力生活、綠色金融及國土永續調適等七大議題。總統府委員會是尚未的氣候治理角色,但是真正執行落實的還是在行政院各部會嗎?所以經濟部是不能不知道的,次長。"},{"start":78.414,"end":96.905,"text":"所以我們提到2023年能源佔比我們綠電佔了9.5%比核電的6.3%還要多可是我們氣候變遷對策委員會的召集人副召集人童子賢說道他說綠能是間歇性能源沒有能力提供穩定的供電經濟部認為綠能有辦法提供穩定的供電嗎?"},{"start":100.347,"end":112.116,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員王鴻薇等19人擬具:「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案件及核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案件及核子反應器設施管制法"},{"start":126.107,"end":148.661,"text":"我想應該是我們政府會好好去做一個完整的一個規劃我們也希望啦但是現在看起來好像沒有一個好好的規劃好如果按照你們現在所說的說這個我們有辦法來做一個穩定的供電喔我就講本席的選區啦為什麼從4月到現在不斷的在停電一直在停電一直在跳電喔那甚至於進入夏季以後到7月1號2號3號桃園還是連續三天的來跳電現在連醫院玻璃桃園醫院都停電那麼連這個機場都跳電喔"},{"start":155.825,"end":177.172,"text":"你知道嗎?其實玻利桃醫院跳電那一天的狀況那是還好是不是運氣好還沒有出人命這醫院跳電何其嚴重機場跳電何其重大那現在我們口口聲聲左一句不缺電右一句不缺電所以我想在我們台電來台電五月在這個卓院長在視察的時候來桃園視察的時候台電進入狀況內好嗎"},{"start":183.737,"end":191.86,"text":"我們在5月份這個德院長來桃園視察的時候有說會全力穩定桃園地區的供電那今年也投入了8億去改善這個線路跟弱點的一個設備那兩個月過去了現在我們看到到處停電跳電又是小動物出沒"},{"start":200.743,"end":225.63,"text":"哪來那麼多小動物出沒啊?玻璃桃園醫院那一天其實我們大家就非常不能接受了神的保證每一次運氣都這麼好都不會出大事喔所以我想我們發現這個停電跳電一下說是小動物一下又說是這個陷入老舊啊等等啊從來不承認這是這個供電不穩供電不足啊我記得本席在這個5月29號的時候曾經要求經濟部我們在一個月內要由外部的這個專家學者來組成"},{"start":227.611,"end":242.743,"text":"停電跳電原因的調查委員會當時也有承諾說會來組成來針對大規模的停電來做但現在看起來還沒有那我請教一下台電我們現在桃園這樣子平平的一個跳電一個停電是不是其實就是缺電了"},{"start":243.977,"end":271.976,"text":"委員您剛才提到的幾個例子都是在我們備轉容量率非常高的時候發生的事情所以那個跟供電夠不夠是兩件事情那台電一直在說明就是這一些線路的問題其實包含我們知道說桃園市是這幾年來人口成長最多也是用電量成長最快的地方所以我們有很多潰線的負載其實已經是超過原來的設計"},{"start":273.677,"end":293.093,"text":"我希望能夠調整它。您的這些說法,或者這些藉口,其實我們聽過非常多次。老百姓只有一個想法,怎麼樣能夠保持我們穩定的空間,不要再讓我們一直停電,不要讓大家民生不方便,甚至造成很大的影響。這是老百姓唯一的一個要求跟需求。接下來,我請教一下核安會陳主委。來主委。"},{"start":297.628,"end":317.141,"text":"我們今天審查核子反應器的管制條例我們幾位委員提案要來解除核電廠研議至少要五年前申請的限制其實這是為了台灣的能源政策跟我們乾淨的發電我們要多留一個選項留下這個選項所以主委我想請教你今天我們五個這個版本條文如果通過核三廠會自動研議嗎?"},{"start":319.244,"end":339.419,"text":"如果修正通過以後,我們營運者,我們台電是不是還是跟現在一樣?我們是要第一個,如果我們要研議要向核安會來申請,並且經過審查。然後呢,審查完以後確認安全無虞才會發給這個執照,之後才能夠繼續運轉。如果沒有提出申請也無法研議,對不對?"},{"start":341.351,"end":357.638,"text":"是的,好,那所以依照核安會專業的角度來看,來出發,這一次修法通過之後,您認為會不會有核安的疑慮?如果你認為是有,又會是什麼?那個核安的部分,台電必須先去檢視他想要研議的機組。"},{"start":358.858,"end":377.957,"text":"那這個部分他必須寫一個報告,那我們有一些規範,就是整體性的老化評估、老化分析、實現安全分析,那這個東西在我們所有的規範裡面的目錄大概有這麼長。主委,本席只是要問您說,這一次我們如果今天的修法條文通過以後,有沒有會產生核案的疑慮,就這麼簡單?"},{"start":379.138,"end":379.158,"text":"案。"},{"start":390.467,"end":414.718,"text":"主委根據我們這個相關的這個審核的辦法第16條來看如果要繼續運轉目前是要5到15年之前就是5年前要提出申請可是我們看到同辦法第19條我們有規定審查的期限是由主管機關公告之也就是說核安會還是有相當的決定權嘛對不對所以如果說我們修法拿掉了5"},{"start":415.418,"end":430.029,"text":"到15年這個限制的這申請限制那我們怎麼審查或者審查多久那怎麼樣去確保安全這是不是都還是操之在核安委的手上您認為對嗎是的但是一切都是以專業安全的考量"},{"start":430.629,"end":431.05,"text":"核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草"},{"start":451.833,"end":472.715,"text":"據本席了解,核三廠一號機組目前還有438束燃料的儲存空間是足以足夠容納我們現在反應爐內157束燃料移出的需要,也不會像核二廠有滿足的狀況。主委請教您,如果今天修法通過,核三廠的一號機組是不是具有嚴厲的條件跟空間?"},{"start":474.082,"end":499.225,"text":"第一個我們執照是給40年所以到今年7月27他必須依法停機那麼如果通過那台電必須還要準備一個安全的報告我剛才講說研議的報告那麼他要是機組的整個情況那麼做必要的設備的更新那麼我們送到核安會來才會開始審查所以這個需要比較長的時間以上報告"},{"start":500.166,"end":506.229,"text":"所以您還是沒有回答嗎?那如果今天修法通過了以後,核三廠一號機組有沒有研議的條件跟空間?這個目前沒辦法估計啦,這個還是要由台電先來做評估。好,我想主委喔,我們要確保核能安全其實就是核安委的職責啦,沒有核安其實也不會給予執照,也不會到今天我們這個核三廠還在運轉喔。所以我想喔,我們今天這樣的一個修法喔,"},{"start":524.497,"end":524.817,"text":"三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具"}]}},{"id":"154595","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154595","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f87bf1f9afe1586b6ca39103cf15d5982f7ec06bbf1d30435c442b61f25c0f82105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:24:49 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09:35:48","影片長度":"00:10:59","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:24:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T09:35:48+08:00","duration":659,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":61,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時24分）謝謝主席。是不是請金管會彭主委，還有央行的楊總裁？"],["主席：有請彭主委、楊總裁。"],["林委員德福：主委你好，總裁你好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["林委員德福：首先問你兩、三個問題，第一個，我想我們都知道，現在臺股差不多2萬4,000點上下，下半年開始變數會比較大，因為美國大選還有美國即將要降息，主委，你有什麼看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，承蒙您上次有詢問過，金管會是市場主管機關，我們對市場會密切關注，剛剛你提到確實有很多的外界會提到這兩個因素是影響臺股的一個因素，我想我們還是會密切的關注。"],["林委員德福：密切關注。那你認為我們整個基本面會不會受到一些……因為大選的變數很大，包括降息，依您在金融業的專業，您有沒有什麼想法跟看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實股市是一個非常非常敏感的機制，它會吸納各式各樣的資訊，除了國內、國外，還包括本國經濟的基本面的資訊以外，還有各方的預期以及訊息面，我想這都是非常非常廣泛的，這些所有因素大概都會影響到股市。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔。另外我再請教主委，工商協進會吳東亮董事長有帶一些企業，尤其是金融業去拜訪你，他們當然也希望金融能夠整併來壯大整個金融的產業，彭主委，你有什麼看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實昨天工商協進會確實有帶領大概11位理監事來針對他們的建言白皮書，有關金融產業的建言部分，提出非常廣泛的意見，其實剛剛委員指示的有關金融整併只是其中一小部分，他們討論的範圍非常非常廣，這個報告書我想工商協進會他們在裡面的這些資料應該都是公開的，因為主要是金管會作為一個主管機關，對於各方的意見我們都要仔細聆聽、善加的回應，所以昨天大概不是專門針對這個部分，我們有各式各樣的議題，都有做廣泛的討論。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔，好，彭主委你請回。我來請教楊總裁，總裁，我請教，因為卓榮泰院長說，考量到臺灣近年來整個經濟穩定成長，再加上政府必須要拚經濟，因此明年軍公教薪資待遇將往合理的方向來調升，當然同時也希望民間企業能夠跟進加薪。總裁，主計總處曾估算，軍公教每調薪1%，差不多是70億左右的預算，若調薪4%，差不多要匡列將近300億左右上下。請問總裁，對於行政院調薪，你有什麼樣的看法？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得第一個，經濟成長如果說穩定的成長，這是第一個；第二個，政府的財稅、稅收足夠來應付，我覺得這兩個如果加起來的話，應該就是合理要加薪。"],["林委員德福：合理要加薪。因為這一段時間，講實在話，物價通膨……"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然，委員講的沒錯。"],["林委員德福：過去所調的這些薪水幾乎都被通膨吃掉。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員德福：所以很多民眾其實他們沒有受到一點好處，尤其民間業者，有的企業是沒有加薪，但是政府當然希望能夠做一個帶動、起頭的作用。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["林委員德福：現在已經7月初了，卓院長指示相關部會是不是要啟動明年軍公教整個調薪作業，差不多7月底會定案，那我請問總裁，你認為這次調薪是考慮目前整個物價上漲的幅度，所以做出調薪比例這樣的一個決策嗎？依您的看法。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這也是其中因素之一，不過我剛剛在講的就是說，第一個，如果我們的經濟成長穩定成長；第二個，我們的稅收如果……"],["林委員德福：所以兩方面都往正的……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，如果這三個因素都加起來的話，那應該就要……"],["林委員德福：所以總裁你也贊成應該要適度的再加薪？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是，沒有錯。"],["林委員德福：好。總裁，因為臺灣消費者物價指數（CPI）已經連續三年都超過2%，對於外界習慣以2%作為通膨警戒線，上個禮拜財政組總質詢時，你說臺灣應該要採取彈性的物價穩定定義比較妥適，但是本席一直認為這個通膨警戒成為變動指數，政府跟民間預測機構各說各話，那我請問總裁，彈性通膨警戒線的CPI適合作為調薪參考的依據嗎？依您看。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，當然以目前的情況來看，因為現在就是誠如委員所講的，我們已經連續三年都是2%……"],["林委員德福：對，都2%以上啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：所以現在你看看各個國家當前的一個目標就是要把這個通膨控制在2%，甚至以下，至於我在講的small open，就是我們的小額開放的經濟體要比較有彈性，這個是屬於比較中長期的。"],["林委員德福：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：當然我現在要強調的就是，因為我們目前連續三年都是超過2%，所以目前應該是以控制在2%，目前的工作是以控制在2%以下作為主要的目標。"],["林委員德福：2%以下可以接受？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是。"],["林委員德福：但是總裁，所謂的中長期是平均多久？你的中長期是3年還是5年還是更久？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該也不要太長啦，就是說5年、3年左右這樣子。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["林委員德福：總裁，媒體報導目前在籌編明年的整個預算，在政府財政狀況方面，稅收連年超徵，今年稅收表現也不錯，對於軍公教加薪將是有利來支撐今年2月主計總處公布2023年薪資統計的一個結果，因為去年通膨率達到2.5%，創下近15年來次高、第二高，物價漲幅吃掉薪水，不論是每個人每月經常性薪資或總薪資都呈現負成長，那我請問總裁，你認為明年軍公教調薪會不會依舊出現物價漲幅吃掉薪水，甚至於薪水負成長的這種情況呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，軍公教的調薪跟基本工資的調薪，它對於物價的影響比較小，因為基本工資的調漲會涉及到我們中小企業這些商家，它把工資轉嫁到那個價格去，軍公教就比較不會，它就沒有這樣的一個狀況，所以它的一個衝擊（impact）會比較小。"],["林委員德福：總裁，甚至有學者提出以現況考量明年軍公教調薪，恐怕陷入薪資物價螺旋式上漲這種惡性循環，發生所謂的通膨螺旋，我請問總裁，你認為有沒有發生的機率？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想他講的就是在一個比較特殊的情況，像歐洲ECB也提到這樣的一個概念，事實上，我總覺得在學理上是有這樣的一個概率，不過，就目前來講的話，我個人的判斷，臺灣應該是比較不會……"],["林委員德福：比較不會發生？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員德福：總裁，我們希望不會發生啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員德福：央行透過指定銀行、選定特定範圍的店家和民眾，準備在安全、可控原則下來進行小規模試點，逐步打造央行數位貨幣（CBDC）的生態體系。我請問總裁，維持傳統貨幣體系雙層式架構的運作模式，你認為對於央行數位貨幣生態體系朝向普及化有沒有幫助？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這是我們的目標啦！當然我們也希望在現行傳統的支付體系裡面，CBDC的加入能夠讓這個體系更普及化、更健全，也讓貨幣體系能夠更穩定，這是我們的目標啦！當然我們現在還是在往前推進。"],["林委員德福：總裁，你說如果經過審慎評估，認為有推行試點計畫的必要，逐步來打造CBDC生態體系，那我請問，試點計畫是不是有規劃找出克服隱私權疑慮的模式，有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，這個我們都會有考慮到。"],["林委員德福：有考慮到？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們都會考慮到。"],["林委員德福：試點計畫到底有沒有規劃防詐交易的這些模式？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個都會有。"],["林委員德福：都會納進去？"],["楊總裁金龍：嗯，都會。"],["林委員德福：我認為這個很重要，因為現在詐騙到處都是，而且很嚴重，當然我們事前有規劃、有想到的，一定要事前去籌劃、去杜絕，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員的質詢。","接著我們請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.26721875,"end":3.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.08096875,"end":6.3590937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.83159375,"end":7.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.04159375,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.070968750000002,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.04971875,"end":24.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.454718750000001,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.90471875,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.27159375,"end":26.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.250343750000003,"end":28.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.80284375,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.79846875,"end":32.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.03846875,"end":34.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.502218750000004,"end":37.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.134718750000005,"end":38.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.15159375,"end":57.962843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.962843750000005,"end":67.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.53096875,"end":69.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.07909375,"end":76.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.95159375,"end":93.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.34346875,"end":79.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.92346875000001,"end":94.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.03721875000001,"end":96.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.04534375,"end":97.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.24346875,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.67221875000001,"end":109.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.68471875,"end":111.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.19909375,"end":115.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.38846875,"end":117.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.97034375000001,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.81409375000001,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.04596875000001,"end":122.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.54346875,"end":148.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.12596875,"end":153.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.09971875000002,"end":160.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.81596875,"end":161.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.82846875,"end":166.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.97534375,"end":193.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.12784375,"end":190.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.34221875,"end":197.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.87346875,"end":198.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.64534375000002,"end":212.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.01034375,"end":220.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.22096875000003,"end":215.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.17784375000002,"e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很大"},{"start":68.417,"end":76.12,"text":"包括降息以您在金融業您的專業您有沒有什麼想法跟看法?另外我再請教"},{"start":97.096,"end":118.926,"text":"那個主委因為工商協定會這個吳東亮董事長他不是有帶一些企業尤其是金融業去拜訪你那因為他們當然也希望說這個金融能夠整併來壯大整個金融的產業那那個"},{"start":120.1,"end":141.989,"text":"彭主任,您有什麼看法呢?是,報告委員其實昨天工商協定會確實他有帶領在11位的李監事來針對他們的建言白皮書有關金融產業的建言部分提出非常廣泛的意見其實剛剛委員您剛剛指示的有關金融整併只是其中一小部分他們討論的範圍非常非常廣"},{"start":143.57,"end":144.311,"text":"彭主任,請回我來請教楊總裁來"},{"start":167.168,"end":193.684,"text":"總裁我請教因為卓榮泰院長說考量台灣近年來整個經濟穩定成長再加上政府必須要拼經濟因此明年軍工教薪資的待遇將往合理的方向來調升當然同時也希望民間企業能夠更進加薪總裁主計總數曾估算軍工教"},{"start":195.37,"end":222.871,"text":"每條薪1%差不多要差不多70億左右的預算條薪4%差不多要匡列將近300億左右上下請問總裁對於行政院條薪你有什麼樣的看法我覺得如果說政府第一個經濟成長如果說穩定的成長這是第一個第二個政府的財稅"},{"start":225.203,"end":234.816,"text":"稅收他足夠來應付這個我覺得這兩個如果加起來的話那應該就是合理要加薪因為齁這一段時間講實在話物價通膨那是那當然也就是說社會"},{"start":241.805,"end":247.107,"text":"民間業者有的企業是沒有加薪但是政府當然希望能夠做一個帶動起頭的作用"},{"start":260.59,"end":282.117,"text":"沒有錯那現在已經7月初了卓院長的指示相關部會是不是要啟動明年金工教整個調薪的作業差不多7月底會定案那我請問總裁你認為這次調薪是考慮目前整個物價上漲的弧度所以說做出調薪的比例這樣的一個決策嗎"},{"start":283.358,"end":283.858,"text":"您的看法?"},{"start":313.777,"end":322.501,"text":"總裁因為臺灣消費者物價指數CPI已經連續三年都超過2%對於外界習慣你2%作為通膨警戒線上個禮拜財政組總實行時你說臺灣應該要採取彈性的物價穩定定義比較妥適但是本席一直認為說這個通膨警戒"},{"start":337.446,"end":348.135,"text":"成為變動指數政府跟民間預測機構各說各話那我請問總裁彈性通能警戒線的CPI適合作為調心參考的依據嗎一您看我跟委員報告當然以目前的情況來看因為現在就是說陳柔委員在講就是說我們連續已經是三年都是百分之二"},{"start":363.747,"end":369.371,"text":"所以現在你看看各個國家當前的一個目標就是要把這個通膨"},{"start":371.226,"end":398.091,"text":"就要把它控制在2%甚至這以下那至於我在講的就是說是small open就是說我們的小額開放的經濟體呢要比較有彈性這個是屬於比較中長期的當然我現在就是在講在強調的就是說因為我們目前呢是就連續三年都超過2%所以應該目前是以控制在2%目前的工作呢是以控制在2%以下作為"},{"start":399.431,"end":402.913,"text":"總裁,媒體報導目前籌編明年的整個預算在政府財政狀況方面稅收連連超徵"},{"start":429.245,"end":443.355,"text":"今年稅收表現也不錯對於軍工教加薪將是有力來支撐今年二月足跡總署公布2023年薪資統計的一個結果因為去年通膨率達到2.5%創下近15年來次高第二高"},{"start":448.559,"end":468.173,"text":"那物價漲幅吃掉薪水不論是每個人每個月經常性的薪資或總薪資都呈現負成長那我請問總裁你認為明年金工教調薪會不會依舊出現物價漲幅吃掉薪水甚至於薪水負成長的這種情況"},{"start":471.216,"end":496.352,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說軍工教的調薪跟基本工資的調薪它對於物價的影響比較小因為基本工資的調漲會涉及到你的那個就是說我們中小企業這些的商家他把那個價格把工資轉嫁到那個價格去"},{"start":497.233,"end":499.276,"text":"總裁,甚至有學者提出說現況考量明年軍工教條新恐怕陷入"},{"start":515.635,"end":530.828,"text":"新資物價螺旋式的上漲這種惡性的循環發生所謂的通膨螺旋那我請問總裁你認為這樣的機率會不會發生?我想他講的就是說是在一個比較"},{"start":531.949,"end":531.969,"text":"總裁"},{"start":553.843,"end":572.229,"text":"我們希望不會發生的。央行透過指定銀行選定特定範圍的店家和民眾準備在安全可控原則下來進行小規模試點來逐步打造央行數位貨幣CBDC的生態體系那我請問總裁維持傳統貨幣體系雙層式的架構的運作模式你認為對於央行數位貨幣生態體系朝向普及化"},{"start":583.533,"end":602.922,"text":"有沒有幫助?我想這是我們的目標當然就是說我們希望是在現行的傳統的一個支付體系裡面CPTC的加入能夠更讓這個體系能夠更普及化然後更健全對貨幣的體系能夠更穩定這是我們的目標當然我們現在還是在往前的來推進"},{"start":610.945,"end":629.922,"text":"總裁,您說如果經過審慎評估認為有推行四點計畫的必要逐步來打造CBDC生態體系那我請問四點計畫是不是有規劃找出客戶隱私權一律的模式?對對對,這個在我們都會有考慮到有考慮到我們都會考慮到"},{"start":632.765,"end":658.455,"text":"因為四年計劃到底有沒有規劃防詐交易的這些模式是,這個都會有都會納進去因為我認為這個很重要因為你不要因為現在詐騙到處都是而且很嚴重那這個當然我們事前有規劃有想到的一定要事前去籌劃去杜絕好不好是好謝謝謝謝林德福"}]}},{"id":"154594","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154594","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8f70c02a7b32dcbdcca0ece664f026f7b7ec06bbf1d30435c711898d07e4142ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:24:54 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因為這個相關涉及到這些我們防衛作戰任務的一個改變,其實這個部分我可能沒有辦法在這裡公開向"},{"start":629.704,"end":643.423,"text":"因為我有看報導說美方在抨擊說我們是自廢武功所以這些都不是事實就沒有沒有這樣完全沒有這樣的一個事實存在這個是反而是要精進這個我們整個國土防衛作戰的這個部署這個跟任務這樣"},{"start":644.903,"end":670.494,"text":"對,這個也要對國人說明啦,我在想像出軍人,就是老兵他們覺得,欸這可能是不是很好的一個作法,這可能軍方我們國防部還是要說明清楚。應該不需要太擔心說有這樣無端被裁撤的狀況,我們一定會來秉持一個最具有作戰效益,包括中隊的這個他的任務一定會存續。OK,好,以上謝謝。"},{"start":675.014,"end":678.142,"text":"謝謝接下來請王帝宇召委上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"154592","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154592","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8d716459e962e801aca0ece664f026f7b7ec06bbf1d30435cf4d63c271f6545ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:08:12 - 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09:08:08","影片長度":"00:03:19","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員蘇清泉等26人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-10","start_time":"2024-07-10T09:04:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-10T09:08:08+08:00","duration":199,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-21"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.09409375,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.70159375,"end":199.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.10596875000002,"end":141.29159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.244,"end":15.078,"text":"主席還有在場的各位委員各位長官們大家好這次本席所提出核子反應器設施管制法的修法那最主要的原因呢就是要幫民進黨政府解套在現在的核子反應器設施管制法將核電廠的換發執照的申請期間"},{"start":22.205,"end":28.031,"text":"是授權核安會以行政命令的方式來訂定並且規定在執照屆滿期五年前執照屆滿前的五年就要提出換照的申請而目前核一核二廠都已經停機了那核三廠的一號機也將在"},{"start":40.083,"end":40.243,"text":"案案案案案案案"},{"start":70.166,"end":90.441,"text":"最近也都重新擁抱核能。那麼不管是在日本、意大利還有美國、法國、比利時等這些國家其實他們都已經實施了要延長核電廠的研議的計劃就是為了要應對日漸高漲的電力需求並且緩解高碳排造成的全球暖化"},{"start":91.161,"end":92.402,"text":"三、審查委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具《核子反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":117.102,"end":117.222,"text":"案案案案"},{"start":136.752,"end":137.412,"text":"條文修正草案案件事宜提出"},{"start":166.758,"end":173.2,"text":"不可能去核可核電廠的研議及安全性。」那麼所以呢我們希望賴政府能夠好好的為台灣的未來為台灣的民生用電做出最好的思考要去思考我們的未來產業需要什麼我們還有多少土地是可以適合發展綠能我們到底有實力我們有沒有足夠的實力可以對抗這個碳排放那麼以上的這個論點是本席這次所提出的法案修正最重要的原因謝謝"},{"start":195.828,"end":196.51,"text":"案﹚一、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}