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李宗盛編曲 李宗盛編曲"},{"start":2755.595,"end":2778.344,"text":"好來我們現在開始開會我們開始進行黨團協商那本案在教育及文化委員會審查的結果我們還有保留第四條第五條增訂第七條之一第十條第十一條第十二條第十七條增訂第十七條之一等八個條文跟相關的修正動議還有附帶決議實案"},{"start":2781.425,"end":2785.348,"text":"那我們現在就開始繼續我們是不是先從第四來 我們要介紹官員是吧大家都很熟了 天啊 我們真的是相看兩不厭好 來 教育部長鄭一耀 鄭部長 謝謝我們的政次 我們的張料萬堅謝謝我們的教育部學務司的吳林輝 吳司長還有我們國教署的彭復原 彭署長"},{"start":2808.832,"end":2818.7,"text":"誒 彭處長 你的字是怎麼樣 你用毛筆寫是吧真的是 很漂亮來 教育部的我們法務處的我們的李處長還有我們的我們的吳小霞 吳司長 好不好還有我們的 對不起 我們還有法務部矯正誒 還有這個嗎 矯正署啊"},{"start":2830.397,"end":2834.039,"text":"法務部矯正署副署長林雲達林副署長人事總署副人事長懷旭內政部民政司專員劉專元衛福部檢任專事察行政院主計總署專委員王專委員衛福部心理健康司專委員洪專委員法務部參事"},{"start":2860.109,"end":2860.229,"text":"從第四條開始討論"},{"start":2875.009,"end":2875.589,"text":"委員陳培鈺等19人擬具"},{"start":2906.24,"end":2926.791,"text":"好 謝謝大家我剛應這個召委的交代討論過的我就不再重複因為我第一次來那第四條裡面我提出一個附帶的意見因為不論在學輔法裡頭大家重點無論是常態性的人力的編制行政人員或者是任務性的大家都已經有很多的討論"},{"start":2927.952,"end":2944.009,"text":"但是我還是認為未來在行政人力的緣額到底會如何具體去做規劃會不會跟服務的量人的行政人力比會有所調整因此我希望提出一個附帶的意見未來教育部可以定期檢討學服中心的組織編制、適時研修符合實務的需求"},{"start":2950.456,"end":2977.949,"text":"這是在第四點我提出來的附帶意見那當然重點還是在人力比的部分所以第十一條我有另外一個條文的修正案修正動議提出來就是未來高中以下每15校就要設置一名專輔人員再加上每4500名學生要設置一名專輔人員這個是我在第十一條裡面的修正動議以上兩點跟大家"},{"start":2978.789,"end":2980.33,"text":"併案審查委員併案審查委員併案審查委員併案"},{"start":3005.181,"end":3022.913,"text":"謝謝我們已經通過的部分那有幾個地方還是稍微提一下學生輔導諮商中心的正式編制簽證的層面真的是比較複雜但今天還是希望教育部至少能夠針對薪資提升保障薪資對齊的部分要講清楚那同時本席也針對本條有提出關於薪資的附帶決議"},{"start":3024.594,"end":3047.383,"text":"我個人認為同工不同酬的問題一定要在這一次的學生輔導法的修法做這樣的一個機會來處理當我們忽視食物現場同工不同酬的問題的時候除了人力流動的困境沒有辦法改善很可能也非常難去訴求好的服務品質和對孩子的保障所以我們應該要先照顧好幸福人員"},{"start":3048.183,"end":3057.879,"text":"他們才能夠幫我們在照顧好整個教育的環境最後還是請教育部也如果可以的話回應一下先前本席問過的關於行政人力的規劃謝謝"},{"start":3062.243,"end":3080.432,"text":"果仁委的修正這是第十一條不好意思都等一下再送過來給我們好接下來陳佩玉委員我記得我們上一次在第四條卡了很久其實不是相關的工作內容卡太久我們其實是在正式化還是在薪資加急的部分卡了很久"},{"start":3081.252,"end":3107.748,"text":"那我想要說的是上一次彭署長的說明我覺得確實也讓我們重新更加確定就是正式化編制的困境可能會有的困境會讓地方政府產生財務上的負擔或者是緣合上的限制那當時我記得有很多委員舉例談到家庭教育中心後來我們有跟教育部這邊私下討論家庭教育中心到底目前狀況是好是壞這件事情"},{"start":3109.898,"end":3135.612,"text":"我覺得都還有很多要討論的地方所以到底是正式編制化還是只是加薪這件事情其實我個人現在是越來越覺得是不是需要更多的討論因為我自己當然希望這些地方學輔資中心的專家學者們心理師、老師或者是社工師所有在幫助學生的人他們可以得到最好的照顧因為我有把他們自己照顧好他們才有能力去照顧我們的孩子可是目前的困境是如果"},{"start":3136.653,"end":3148.029,"text":"教育部或者是我們在相關資源上或是跟地方政府的溝通都還不夠確切是不是在今天我覺得在這一題我想要先提出這一條我覺得要保留啦好 謝謝今天還要再保留啊"},{"start":3152.523,"end":3168.591,"text":"我們今天在保留如果我還是強調一句話這個當然我們可以我們可以再協商了但對我個人來說我說實在我們如果今天所有的條文大家都沒有太大意見但是我們在這薪資的提升上面沒有辦法做"},{"start":3169.631,"end":3170.192,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":3192.875,"end":3194.196,"text":"范雲等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":3213.553,"end":3225.965,"text":"提出的更具體的規劃因為這才是對現場的老師一個最直接的支持也才是對我們的孩子最直接的支持啦所以我還是希望說教育部今天一定要清楚的來告訴我們到底我們具體的一個可以做的方式是什麼謝謝"},{"start":3230.662,"end":3253.081,"text":"我能夠了解剛剛那個陳培委員說要保留的一個想法我想他不是因為我們會覺得如果在這個教育部現在這樣的狀況不明確的情況之下對於今天就能夠協商出一個結論抱有很大的疑慮所以才有可能說會不會就這一條很難談"},{"start":3254.022,"end":3280.677,"text":"所以我們希望教育部是不是能夠切正問題趕快來幫我們協助這件事那家庭教育中心來做一個舉例我坦白講我們聽到的狀況並不是很好所以拿家庭教育中心的狀況來研擬的話可能就會要蠻難去做一個比擬因為專輔人員他們的辛苦我想尤其到了這個年齡上的一個變化像最近這個有一個新的電影這個腦筋急轉彎2"},{"start":3283.619,"end":3297.055,"text":"對不起他就是在講孩子的情緒變化到了青少年階段其實是很變化陌生的齁那所以我覺得專輔人員我還是在上一次強調我們現在就是很簡單第四條就是談薪資了到底他們的"},{"start":3299.117,"end":3299.717,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":3320.845,"end":3321.846,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":3338.804,"end":3364.578,"text":"謝主席喔第四條我想我有整理一個新的修正動議是申訂第四項跟第五項那我們民進黨的所有教文委員會的委員也都有簽署喔那所以也希望教育部能夠來採納這個修正條文那在這份修正動議裡面喔我是明定地方政府要有絕對的彈性那判斷"},{"start":3365.678,"end":3390.277,"text":"學生輔導諮商中心究竟要採取長設性的任務編組又或者是正式化的組織而且也因為教育部特別舉了家庭教育中心的案例來提醒納入正式化組織未必可以運作得很好所以本席在這一版的修正動議中特別強調說如果要採取正式化的組織"},{"start":3391.118,"end":3413.515,"text":"必須是要經過評估認為確實能夠有效的發揮輔資中心的職能另外我也有參照文化基本法等五部法律的立法方式在合於財政紀律法規範的狀況之下要求中央跟地方主管機關寬列預算來降低學生輔資中心人員離職率"},{"start":3415.096,"end":3434.115,"text":"提升專業者任職意願供應學生完備資產管道考量到任何看似在完善的制度實施起來都發現有不足之處本席在第五項特別要求中央及地方政府逐年會商並檢討及調整輔資"},{"start":3440.521,"end":3441.082,"text":"委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":3455.904,"end":3471.901,"text":"第四條據說這個正式化是不是或常識化這部分我們已經討論很久了那因為林宜瑾委員的這個修正同意早上有找我討論那我看他已經又在做修正了所以看起來可行性是蠻高的"},{"start":3473.422,"end":3497.492,"text":"當然我們今天也有很多針對薪資各種部分的附帶決議如果可以配合林宜瑾委員這個修正動議的話至少我覺得這一條如果能夠以林宜瑾的部分的文字跟我們相關的薪資的附帶決議通過的話應該是能夠得到足夠的保障因為大家最關心的就是"},{"start":3498.632,"end":3524.671,"text":"新資待遇會不會比現在更好那如何能夠有這個可能性就是說林宜瑾的文字也保留未來有正式化的空間嘛那現狀還做不到的時候那如果我們的附帶訣跟他的搭配的話我至少個人是有被說服就是這條可以就是讓他通過但當然教育部也需要表達意見對這樣子的一個版本覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":3528.618,"end":3551.577,"text":"我個人覺得這個文字的話可以請教育部表達意見但是身為26年的諮商工作培育者我還是強調薪資的調整比什麼都重要我不在乎這些文字文字可能可以確定請教育部去看薪資的調整薪資的調整決定你人才的留任沒有這個東西其他講的都是空的這是我一向的原則好不好一向的原則文字的調整其實是"},{"start":3557.523,"end":3564.847,"text":"我對我個人來說的話教育部只要認為大體的方式特別是在第三項跟第四項的一個層面當中"},{"start":3566.668,"end":3584.512,"text":"因為是林一綺委員才剛剛提出來所以請教育部根據她的文字裡面再做一些本席利用這個時間我還是再一次的強調潘文忠部長我說實在的他在當初割喉案的時候他提到我都記得很清楚目前已經增加5,004名輔導老師600位專輔人員會針對中大型學校擴充專業輔導人力搭配薪資提升跟升遷的留任機制"},{"start":3595.835,"end":3625.118,"text":"這都是前教育部長所提到的所以說呢薪資的提升跟留任計制本來就對全國第一線工作人員的最大的一個承諾我今天對於第四條來說我不覺得我需要我們是需要花時間在文字上面做一些的斟酌但是在於附帶決議裡面大家各自版本所提出的薪資的幾等的一個一個調升那個才是一個最實質上面對學對這些人員裡面最有幫助請教育部千萬不要迴避啊"},{"start":3631.798,"end":3660.134,"text":"先從文字上面來去說那在看這個文字的時候呢我還是要特別提到這個知府人力當中為什麼我一直強調薪資很重要因為當初的起薪就是很低本來就是非常錯誤的那這次的修法是在搏破網所以我覺得人事總署如果你每次都要提出解放你不要一直跟我說做不到做不到而是你只要去問嘛我先只問嘛第一線的人員你是不是要調薪嘛你告訴我一個事實嘛要不要調薪我覺得我講到這邊我都已經有點生氣了你到底要不要調薪你若然是是的話"},{"start":3661.155,"end":3682.622,"text":"那你就應該在這個事的原則之上面去做出其他可以配套的一個方法而不是在文字上面跟其他的部分裡面完全沒有迂迴的來做這樣的一個處理本席今天已經提出了一個附帶決議比上次更加的一個完整我個人覺得這對於第一線的工作人員來說這完全是足以能夠讓他們覺得他們的工作是被尊重的"},{"start":3683.482,"end":3696.746,"text":"所以對我們來說的話我同意第四條裡面你不管在第四項、第三或第四項裡面像你們在文字上面你做修正但是附帶決議裡面的薪資今天一定務必要一定要有一個結果否則我們講別的都是假的好羅廷偉委員朝野我們有看到你的附帶決議齁那是不是就直接請教育部趕快回應我們一下了"},{"start":3709.09,"end":3735.855,"text":"教育部教育部先從本文我們通常負責決定是從本文的條文剛剛林宜瑾委員已經特別提到第三項、第四項所以我們就會過來然後呢我剛剛已經提出來這幾天今天一定要作為一個討論那就是剛剛是我剛剛講這麼多是要給教育部一個時間因為剛剛那個那個整個文字是剛剛才呈現出來的好不好我們現在把它現在是有把它因為你們民進黨委員全部簽字嘛就表示你們對於你們每個人都有看得很仔細嗎都有看得很仔細"},{"start":3740.606,"end":3753.053,"text":"負貸決議很重要好了我們暫時目前為止先把這個本文的條文裡面做確認完之後我們就進入到負貸決議裡面的薪資的部分這部分是所有委員都非常關切的這部分還需要時間嗎還是現在"},{"start":3764.465,"end":3791.206,"text":"好 可以 范議員因為我今天也簽一個跟薪資相關的附帶決議那我是希望說不管是昭緯柯真昭緯的附帶決議或是我的附帶決議我們的附帶決議要通過的話林宜瑾委員這個修正的動議才有意義啦那所以就是說我是希望說能夠一起通過要不然的話我們就希望能夠再協商這樣"},{"start":3792.287,"end":3793.768,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3808.306,"end":3809.166,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3827.956,"end":3854.209,"text":"那因為教育部還在考慮這部分我就不浪費時間說明一下我的附帶決議那我的部分是希望說如果是常設性的任務編組的話專府人員任主任督導應該要提升續薪以原薪點平移淨等再進一階起薪那最高至九等六階主任應在於以現行之計畫主持人費用那第二點若輔資中心正式化"},{"start":3854.989,"end":3876.722,"text":"於下列方式至少擇一聘之以鼓勵專府人員久任升遷亦利於中心政治化之銜接沿用主任督導依照《一事人員人事條例》以師三級本諷加專業家級並有年功諷等待遇才繼其年資起聘之二、專府人員擔任主任督導者"},{"start":3877.282,"end":3901.552,"text":"比照高中以下各級學校主任組長方式給予職務加緊不低於公立中等以下學校教師及幼兒園教保服務人員信任一覽表的主任7520元、組長5750元有鑒於目前督導回任專輔人員其年資未被採記不合理亦不利督導工作發展督導回任專輔人員時應採記其年資提敘"},{"start":3905.293,"end":3922.628,"text":"第三點我之前在討論的時候就有提到那因為他沒有辦法放在條文中所以我也希望放在附帶決議那這三點都應該在就是三個月內嚴明具體落實的方案並向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":3924.069,"end":3940.644,"text":"委員范雲也非常確實提出該如何來提高薪資本人其實第四條到今天所提出來的附帶決議也請各位可以看一下因為現在教育部在對文字的部分怎麼樣文字部分可以確定嗎那我們還是以本文為優先請教育部部長還是次長部長好來"},{"start":3946.243,"end":3961.125,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位委員的關心我想我們的方向都是一致的只是因為在第四條的第二項裡面它已經就明文說高級中等以下學校主管機關因涉學生"},{"start":3961.966,"end":3962.686,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":3983.819,"end":4001.67,"text":"我這一個具體的建議是不是說謝謝林宜瑾委員所提出來是不是在第四項這一個部分就不需要再特別針對說要長設性組織因為說不定也有哪一個地方縣市他覺得他可以設編制內從地制法裡面去來針對這一個機構"},{"start":4007.794,"end":4019.473,"text":"那另外最後一項等於說最後一項降低人員離職率是不是可以考慮這個刪去因為從第三行的提升專業"},{"start":4022.996,"end":4040.641,"text":"提升專業及任職意願從正面表列因為提升任職意願已經等於就是另外一方面就是那個降低離職率了嘛所以從這個裡面這樣的一個文字就法律上來講我們盡量"},{"start":4042.681,"end":4067.332,"text":"從正面表列的這樣一個精神來看是不是可以這樣是不是適當請主席還有我們各委員參與考量好 所以說我們根據林宜瑾委員的部分來說本條所稱學生輔導諮商中以常設性任務編組為原則這句話就徹底把它去掉這一項全部把它去掉 對不對"},{"start":4068.871,"end":4097.165,"text":"好了,把第三項去掉,然後在第四項的部分的衛力學生輔導諮商中心運作降低人員離職率去掉,然後就直接進入到提升專業者任職意願等等之類的,是這樣子嗎?好不好,那是不是誰可以把文字?這來為極啦極,好,OK,極專業這後面,後面才會可以鋪陳我們對這個學薪資待遇上,我想我們在"},{"start":4098.595,"end":4098.976,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4117.014,"end":4136.139,"text":"其實大家討論過就很知道吧我們其實附帶決議第四條的附帶決議還有第十一條的有關於不管五十五班到四十班二十校十五校這些討論完畢就是它就是整個我們立法的這一次最大的主軸嘛 對不對雖然只有八條但事實上真的很需要被用力討論但是兩條嘛來我們請我們因為我們現在打字啊還沒請到委員在這個時候需要有意見的"},{"start":4157.503,"end":4173.167,"text":"我們請教育部相關單元或人總針對我跟范雲委員所提出的附帶決議裡面有關薪資的建議請仔細看一下等一下提出來流動大家來一起來做一些參考好不好這樣比較快速"},{"start":4184.087,"end":4201.831,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳"},{"start":4209.202,"end":4212.665,"text":"新資部分有人看嗎?有人在做處理嗎?"},{"start":4224.722,"end":4226.682,"text":"提升專業及任職意願同時供應學生完備之輔導資商管道各級主管機關皆應寬列預算並逐年由中央主管機關"},{"start":4249.447,"end":4258.756,"text":"會商直轄市縣市主管機關檢討並調整運行策略以符本向意旨"},{"start":4274.383,"end":4296.65,"text":"同時提供學生完備這樣可以嗎?好 可以 我們在條文上面我來呼應一下 這條文是我們是要來提升專業者專業及任職意願我們就來看看我們的附帶決議的提升意願很重要的就是薪資真的不要以為助人公主都在做功德了沒有這種事了 好不好他們能夠到第一線去幫大家來做輔導本身就已經在做功德了"},{"start":4304.27,"end":4329.236,"text":"來我們來看一下負債決議我們剛剛討論了這個部分是請誰對於負債決議因為我們剛剛已經特別提到我們要同樣的要會同嘛對不對我們剛剛已經提到了我們同樣要會同人總嘛主計處嘛共同演繹來人總跟主計處誰可以來對於我們所提出的負債決議的薪資加給的部分提出建議夫人之長好謝謝"},{"start":4335.469,"end":4335.489,"text":"來 麥克風"},{"start":4347.907,"end":4366.258,"text":"主席跟委員各位先進那我簡單報告一下第一個就是說如果說我們這個輔導中線人員是正式公務人員的話自然他的待遇就進入到正式公務人員的條件去處理所以可以不必在這邊另外去做處理那另外這邊有提到就是我先針對那個柯委的這個"},{"start":4367.679,"end":4388.277,"text":"公務人員這個就可以不用處理了好不好政治公務人員吵了好幾天了接下來就是說我們在那個我先談先報告柯委員這個公號1的這個部分跟公號第一點跟第二點部分因為我們現在有福島中心設置辦法這是教育部主管的法令那這個部分會涉及到跟衛福部目前的"},{"start":4389.578,"end":4417.25,"text":"社工人員之間待遇的這個橫評那這邊的意見當然未來是作為我們的討論所參考的使用那第三點的部分因為保護性社工這個是目前是最高但是它所面臨的那個第一線的工作環境是當初是有特別不一樣所以才有特別另外這樣的處理那如果這邊把一般學校的輔導的部分提高到跟保護性社工一樣相對的保護性社工這邊所面臨的第一個職場的環境它是不一樣的"},{"start":4417.97,"end":4439.463,"text":"所以這邊會也需要跟衛福部這邊在一起來討論那第三個第四點部分要回認的部分因為回認部分這部分因為是剛剛有提到因為他們是約聘用人員本來就是在新典責任率上面去做處理所以我們建議這個第四點這部分這個是可以把它拿掉不要不需要有"},{"start":4440.123,"end":4465.544,"text":"第五點因為證照部本來我們擔任輔導的時候上次我就跟林報告過他本來就是有專業證照那衛福部這個補助民間單位的這個計畫因為衛福部這個計畫補助明年他未必是有專業證照所以當初為了鼓勵這些人去取得專業證照所以衛福部才會有這樣的方案說給他提高新點"},{"start":4466.144,"end":4490.276,"text":"或是鼓勵你如果進入因為你沒有專業證照所以我們就鼓勵你雖然已經在民間擔任這個工作所以我們希望你取得專業證照但我們學校這不一樣因為我們學校這本來你進來就要有專業證照這個前提已經擺在這個地方上所以這兩個的立法本意是不太一樣我就在上次有做一個報告 謝謝"},{"start":4490.996,"end":4508.263,"text":"這次的部分完全沒有辦法說服我特別請教一下特別是在有證照的部分在有證照的部分當然是這樣就像我到我的學校去任教我有博士資格可是他在我因為我有博士資格他還是每個人進去大學就都有博士資格可是學校還是因為你有博士資格還是給你額外因為他們認為給你的薪資很低"},{"start":4510.504,"end":4530.173,"text":"就這樣那你的社工證我覺得我上次也特別反應過了我覺得每次拿資輔裡面都要拿社工來綁標然後就因為社工人員社工人員本來的薪資你們本來就給人家非常的低的這個部分你現在對這些資輔人員來說的話本來你給人家的部分是在地下室我講個舉例來說你本來是在地下室你現在把他從你不能從一樓開始給他起薪嗎所以說你不能拿過去已經是一個錯誤的這是我不斷的提到的"},{"start":4538.257,"end":4562.77,"text":"所以政造你這個理由不是不是這樣子政造即使你32新點對於目前來說所有已經具有政造的人來說他這樣子的一個增加還是有他的必要性因為他們過去有政造這些人你給他是低於樓地板的一層樓地下室現在只不過是希望能夠變成從一樓來開始來做這樣的一個討論所以不是有沒有政造的這個問題就誠如我剛剛所提到的"},{"start":4564.931,"end":4574.114,"text":"每個人進到學校當教授都有博士學位但是博士學位還是有我們的學術佳績啊所以不是因為你有才給你聽起來本來就是需要這個資格所以這樣的條文還有你特別提到的還是一句話每一次都是用我們社工人員如何所以我們的這個資輔人力就必須要跟他一樣才有一個橫頻的效果社工你已經給人家很低了我想在場的每個人都知道"},{"start":4591.218,"end":4620.784,"text":"所以我今天不能用這個方法來討論我們這個薪資這是本人要再次提到的好 委員我跟您報告一下就是說剛剛我們就已經提到前面就是要由教育部、衛福部大家會一起討 一起來原商嘛對對那接下來就是說因為我們這邊如果是直接去用那個新點加我們目前這些人用的那個新點表會變成它原來的新點表就不是你會你加進去的新點會不等於現在的新點表上面的這個部分所以我們才不建議因為譬如說"},{"start":4621.224,"end":4623.166,"text":"請問我們在今天協商之前是不是你們就應該跟衛福部有一些討論?現在有共同討論嗎?"},{"start":4643.483,"end":4670.798,"text":"教育部不好意思部長我們提到薪資我說是重中之重所以這個東西人總要會同教育部跟這個所謂的教育部一起討論請問你們有事前討論嗎為什麼到現在為止還是告訴我還要再會同衛福部啊不是就已經說我們今天要討論這個議題的嗎你們到底有沒有會同衛福部啊沒有的話我們這邊坐在這邊所有的委員坐在這邊一排坐在這邊我們眼睜睜看你們不是白搭嗎這鞋子衝啥各位委員呼應一下好不好"},{"start":4673.91,"end":4699.884,"text":"難怪剛剛會說要保留因為就感覺沒辦法我們上一禮拜就是以這個東西為重中之重你們告訴我要是人種還有主機處、衛福部不是大家都一同討論嗎那我們倒是因為你告訴我還要繼續討論那你把我們這些委員當潘啦我們先休息十分鐘休息五分鐘好不好"},{"start":4702.037,"end":4727.017,"text":"主席是把它列在互代決議然後我們根據這個去我們事實上私底下是有討論的那討論的結果呢我們今天不是要把它提出來我們今天就是要討論這些啊你可以範圍的部分任何誰的版本都可以但是你起碼要告訴我你們大家都覺得流行很重要啊那你們到底討論的結果是怎麼做要告訴我們一下吧有啦這一個問題但是現在要怎麼改觀"},{"start":4730.54,"end":4736.585,"text":"這本獎是典軌說今天要協商 典軌說今天要協商就是讓每個黨員、各部會都可以有你協商版本就對了 我今天坐在這裡你還跟我說還跟別人說還沒討論也沒協商 他們真的會花費"},{"start":4761.946,"end":4762.086,"text":"蔣麗玉議員蔣麗玉議員"},{"start":4779.632,"end":4780.893,"text":"來 等一下 休息時間"},{"start":4801.855,"end":4804.777,"text":"委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1"},{"start":4821.732,"end":4843.082,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":4846.775,"end":4874.352,"text":"審查委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正�"},{"start":4876.053,"end":4881.881,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":4891.715,"end":4906.843,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":4907.923,"end":4919.008,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":4929.412,"end":4939.055,"text":"委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1"},{"start":4955.84,"end":4964.624,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":4968.057,"end":4989.942,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳"},{"start":4990.362,"end":5009.308,"text":"審查委員范雲等17人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅"},{"start":5010.145,"end":5031.78,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳"},{"start":5034.031,"end":5039.476,"text":"董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長"},{"start":5058.915,"end":5085.983,"text":"審查委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅"},{"start":5087.363,"end":5108.017,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳"},{"start":5108.357,"end":5115.363,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商："},{"start":5131.237,"end":5131.257,"text":"好"},{"start":5159.178,"end":5180.505,"text":"這本席就是強力的希望能夠在還是一句話吧薪資的提升是最實際的如果薪資沒有辦法提升我說實在我們修這一步法還是留有非常多的遺憾我們都很難面對江東復老了來啦 部長這附帶決議不管是柯真委員提出來或是范雲委員提出來的教育部請給一個說法好不好會總監 會總監"},{"start":5187.432,"end":5212.65,"text":"謝謝主席我想我們事實上跨黨派對這一個怎麼樣是確保我們這一些辛苦人力辛苦人員他們專業而且能夠有更高的一個留職意願來協助我們學校來推動學生的心理輔導有一個更好的一個支持力量我想我們會後我願意來"},{"start":5215.073,"end":5215.774,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":5230.127,"end":5256.874,"text":"我覺得我還是要說一下啦就是在學復法的過程當中我真的很感謝昭緯也一直echo我的辦公室的討論可是我當然也支持這些現場的同仁們可是我現在想要問的是提高新典折合率這件事情的算法我們其實剛剛在聽任總這邊說明的時候我真的還是沒有很清楚當然我知道現場的困境真的很大所以剛剛部長的回應也真的很感謝那只是說"},{"start":5258.959,"end":5278.426,"text":"除了這個新點折合率之外另外第四點督導回認年資問題這個我認同跟職務加給就是再把職務加給的部分所以我覺得今天這一張附帶決議裡面有太多太多的細節真的要請那個算錢的算人員的拜託給我們更專業的建議好不好謝謝"},{"start":5281.724,"end":5308.446,"text":"年資是可以算啦但是加級因為他既然沒有當督導就沒有加級就像我們今天師長如果他不再當主管他同職等變成督學他事實上就沒有主管加級所以這一個部分我想督導回任的年資這個年資應該納進去我覺得這是合理但是他因為回任以後回任為這個一般的這個辛苦人員他當然就沒有所謂的職務加級"},{"start":5310.648,"end":5335.163,"text":"這跟他的任務跟他的職責是有關聯的但他起碼在當督導的那一段的年資本來就是本來就給他併入才對嘛要好不好所以因為這個部分是加薪資事體大所以呢因為我們好所以部長有承可是部長你剛剛的說法是你承諾會努力的爭取所以意思就是說"},{"start":5336.212,"end":5339.794,"text":"也有可能還是回歸到原點 爭取沒有到"},{"start":5345.255,"end":5366.533,"text":"來 可不可以回應一下等一下部長要回應那我可不可以順便問另外一個問題也是在教委的版本裡面第五點教委擬停了兩個方案一個是方案一參考衛福部第二個是參考國內大專院校我覺得這個事情是不是也還是要請你們說明一下就是這兩個方案的優缺點或者是更適合現場的實務狀況因為剛剛教委也提醒了還有地方政府經費的問題"},{"start":5368.314,"end":5377.705,"text":"大縣市的問題就是他會花很多錢小的縣市他搞不好就是補不足這樣的人那一併的考慮下我們其實需要更多意見讓我們知道好不好謝謝"},{"start":5381.314,"end":5393.204,"text":"因為我個人覺得啦裴育委員雖然很謝謝你會仔細的看我們這個部分啦不過現在卡在前的部分裡面當中因為我們我跟范育委員其實都提的還蠻細節的我覺得這種併的方法把我們這兩個附帶決議室一併帶回去四個單位共同來我現在還是要請"},{"start":5400.69,"end":5425.152,"text":"佈長回應我剛剛所提到的大家對於這樣一個薪資的調整都認為它是留任一個非常重要的一個關鍵那部長也願意去努力那我剛剛只是多問了一句如果行政院還是以他們自己的預算經費的一個限制沒有辦法達到任何的一個結果的話是不是這樣子的部分我們又是回到一個原點還是部長在此時此刻其實可以給在場所有的第一線的助人工作者"},{"start":5426.428,"end":5436.841,"text":"一些可以讓他們覺得我們有正在幫他們爭取的這樣子的一些的隻字片語可以嗎還是還是得回去做討論"},{"start":5439.5,"end":5467.723,"text":"我想這個額度不曉得啦我不敢我還是要從政府的整體的一個總體這個財政這個來看但是朝這一個加薪的那個方向是我們努力的而且我希望應該大家都既然大家的心念功都有很高的一個共識我認為我是樂觀的那至於督導回任年資那個我覺得是合理"},{"start":5470.009,"end":5494.897,"text":"就是樂觀的操作部長樂觀的操作型定義好不好舉例來說從4400多加到4這個叫操作型定義好不好部長你是樂觀的其實不用論我對薪資的結構我真的比較外行因為朝我們的理想絕對不會讓我們太失望對不對"},{"start":5497.618,"end":5523.172,"text":"我想歡迎委員已經講我不會讓各位失望的謝謝那因為薪資的部分我們因為還是要因為我還是要特別跟大家說一下因為薪資的部分還是需要有我們還是需要這四個單位共同來嚴寧啦但是我再一次的呼籲社工人員我們還是要尊重還是要給人家在薪資的值等上面他們所遭遇的處境其實是相當的一個辛苦的"},{"start":5523.852,"end":5551.522,"text":"但是呢不能因為社工人員已經大家已經很對不起他了然後資輔人員因為不想讓社工人員覺得有相對剝奪感所以把資輔人員的這個薪資也跟著要扯平我覺得這樣的概念是完全是不能夠接受的我們就責成在我們的附帶決有關薪資的部分留給我們教育部部長來做一個統合在我們八月的臨時會當中我們在一次的協商的時候我們就一定具體的把它提出來這樣可不可以那我們是不是可以先通過第四條的我們的條文好不好第四條的條文"},{"start":5552.882,"end":5554.223,"text":"委員林宜瑾等18人擬具第十一條條文修正草案"},{"start":5573.101,"end":5600.37,"text":"還有范雲委員你就有三個好不好還有葛如君委員還有林彥秀委員柯真委員剛剛你說已經保留了這是誰范雲委員還有范雲委員你有四個好不好范雲委員認為可以一起保留好不好好那我們就所有的附帶決決一起保留謝謝來我們進入到第五條第五條我們把第五條上次的第五條把它拿出來好不好"},{"start":5601.892,"end":5605.474,"text":"各位第五條完之後其實就最後就是第十一條比較重要第五條沒有我們先討論第五條我們上那個什麼第五條的我們當初的保留誰可以幫我回一下那個職能治療師職能治療師好我們藍綠各有人非常為職能治療師在發聲好啦來來那個羅廷偉委員跟張雅琳委員"},{"start":5631.325,"end":5656.646,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉我想學生輔導諮詢會相關人員我希望還是能夠增加職能治療師那我再次表達學生輔導諮詢相關人員應該正面表列我個人比較沒辦法接受那教育部說這個職能治療師屬於這個身體上的一個附件那我要跟大家分享身體上的附件就我所知道台中市市有所謂的物理治療師"},{"start":5657.847,"end":5658.167,"text":"主席"},{"start":5679.448,"end":5680.029,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":5694.472,"end":5712.671,"text":"張雅琳委員講完說我們請衛福部也一起來回應一下好那我也是希望幫職能治療師爭取因為我過去長期的跟職能治療師一起在合作那其實他們並不是只有在做身體的部分其實他們的養成訓練跟現場的實務上面其實都做非常多的心理的部分心理"},{"start":5715.603,"end":5741.777,"text":"在這個領域已經有跟特殊教育的合作其實已經有一個非常長遠的歷史那所以呢因為我自己在現場我也看到很多小孩子他們其實是還沒有得到特教生的鑑定資格或者是因為受限於家長不讓他們去鑑定而早生他一直無法以特教的身份來去取得相關的資源所以我還是希望這些造成困擾的小孩呢我還是希望我們可以在這個"},{"start":5743.761,"end":5752.535,"text":"現在的相關專業人員裡面上去列上職能治療師來讓所有的小孩可以得到更多的支持 謝謝"},{"start":5753.595,"end":5776.596,"text":"好 謝謝陳佩玉委員好 謝謝主席關於職能治療師的部分確實我們知道在現場的職務可能如果他進入學服部法的概念就會是當學生沒有被發現他可能有輔導的困境他可能是因著別的生理因素而產生的困境所以呢我猜想雅琳委員或者是羅廷委員的建議是希望一併把職能治療師邀請進來在這個團隊裡面討論"},{"start":5779.358,"end":5801.339,"text":"可是我其實想要回到專業的角度來請教教育部因為我們之前在修特教法的時候其實有意識到這個事情那我們自己後來在看學復法的時候我們也問過教育部關於特教生的心輔資源這件事情它到底是比較多的概念是落在所謂特教老師還是三級輔導機制這件事情到底那個先後的順序"},{"start":5802.72,"end":5808.262,"text":"我們當然知道很多事情它不是看先後順序可是問題是在實務的現場它就會有先後順序的倫理要處理所以我可不可以拜託教育部在這個部分先做回應先不是說要不要放的問題而是目前你們所收集到現場的實務狀態大概會是什麼好 謝謝好 那我們請還有范雲委員"},{"start":5829.157,"end":5839.605,"text":"關於職能治療師的部分因為他們的相關協會也有跟我們反映說事實上輔導業務常常會涉及到需要職能治療師的儲育性輔導的時候至少應該讓地方能夠聘請職能治療師的代表"},{"start":5844.708,"end":5867.817,"text":"所以我是支持在輔助中心輔導業務涉及的時候就是應該要能夠找他們那所以到底是直接明文就放在我們的跟其他的相關專員包括臨床心理師這樣還是說錢款以外之學的專家明白指出說包括例如職能治療師等這部分"},{"start":5868.197,"end":5868.357,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":5888.067,"end":5888.307,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5916.235,"end":5936.624,"text":"學生輔導法第六條第二項第三款對於處遇性的輔導的內涵以及所提供的服務已經說得很清楚因為處遇性的輔導最重要的是要提供整合性的服務整合哪些整合各類的資源跟各類的專業服務那當然職能治療也是其中一種"},{"start":5937.324,"end":5937.844,"text":"佛智慧委員"},{"start":5961.937,"end":5975.38,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":5985.382,"end":5986.443,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6012.415,"end":6015.28,"text":"佳談或諮商需求"},{"start":6022.608,"end":6048.386,"text":"在先後順序上應該是先輔導的尤其是在學習障礙跟情緒障礙來講都會需要先經由學校一般性的輔導一段時間並且做成觀察的紀錄之後憑藉著這些輔導的措施以及觀察的紀錄提報申請鑑定鑑定通過之後他才能取得特教生的身份進而由特教老師來提供特教服務不過"},{"start":6049.147,"end":6068.122,"text":"因為鑑定相對嚴謹也有可能在輔導一段期間觀察紀錄等等還不足以判斷他的身份很可能也會鑑定他為疑似學生那疑似生這一塊在目前國教署的規劃是已經允許由特教來提供協助了"},{"start":6068.762,"end":6084.918,"text":"當然是很期待在服務的過程更嚴謹的收集資料幫助他取得身份並且能夠很正式的納入特教的一個服務的範疇我先做這樣以上說明等一下等一下你剛剛是把職能製造師放到哪裡對不起我剛剛你的訊息太多你把它放到哪裡"},{"start":6085.518,"end":6097.844,"text":"第二款 前款以外知識專家然後你會在立法說明裡面把這些你相關的包括職能治療師跟其他的部分包括家庭輔導包括法律服務等等的相關"},{"start":6099.484,"end":6099.944,"text":"處遇性輔導會連結各類資源"},{"start":6123.811,"end":6140.964,"text":"有關委員問到職能治療這一塊職能治療在精神衛生裡面是相關專業至於說要不要把職能治療是納入這個就是在爐裂在這個諮詢會的人員上面這個我們尊重主管機關教育部的意見謝謝主席"},{"start":6151.058,"end":6166.926,"text":"就是因為教育部需要你們的專業意見他們當然有他們現場在輔導現場但是他們更需要你們告訴他們你們就職能治療師過往的工作經驗也許有一些狀況可以跟教育部分享"},{"start":6167.606,"end":6194.626,"text":"因為當然司長他現在的寫法是給了一個解方可是我也說說不確定雅琳委員跟廷文委員是不是可以接受這個寫法所以而且我相信我們一般人遇到職能治療師的狀態怎麼樣可能在學校現場是比輔導老師少很多那少很多的原因是因為過往沒有機會邀請他們所以少很多還是因為真的不需要所以少很多所以可不可以就你們的專業告訴我們更多意見好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":6196.167,"end":6206.972,"text":"呃不好意思我補充一下請問一下您是新建師的代表嗎?對不對?那會不會是因為要醫師師才比較能夠回答這一題?對不對?"},{"start":6214.4,"end":6229.711,"text":"對所以我怕說不同師會不會沒辦法回答但是我還是希望你能夠說明不要只是我們委員在幫他們講話我們希望有衛福部來幫忙認定他的一個代表性或他的職能上能夠協助到的真正幫助到的他的重要性"},{"start":6231.506,"end":6258.641,"text":"各位委員報告就是說剛剛我提到從我們精神衛生的角度來看職能治療師確實是我們精神衛生裡面就是專業的一環專業人員的一環那我覺得是說就是回到這個法條我們在成立這樣的一個諮詢會裡面教育部在成立這樣的一個諮詢會裡面它的一個目的那去衡量說這樣的一個職能治療師是不是要如列在你們的這個"},{"start":6259.582,"end":6273.248,"text":"范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人"},{"start":6279.4,"end":6279.84,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":6305.729,"end":6328.744,"text":"那其他的你需要把它列在那個第一款相關專業人員我也是想要呼應這一點就是說因為畢竟他就是精神衛生這可能過去大家並不是那麼熟悉啦所以可能並不會去找他但事實上他們的確在很多的時候是協助了很多孩子在去做這些相關的心理輔導的工作所以還是希望可以在第一個第一項裡面呢就把職能治療師給列入謝謝"},{"start":6330.965,"end":6353.974,"text":"因為如果衛福部都這樣說了我們還不把它列入那我們怎麼會把精神健康這個部分可以一起來溝通討論的特別把它摒除負面表列我覺得很奇怪所以這個部分來誰這個部分我常常對薪資比較有意見其他我都沒意見"},{"start":6358.581,"end":6382.116,"text":"因為第一項看起來都是臨床心理、諮商心理、社會工作室及精神科醫生那如果我們在第二項後面不要放在那個說明文字直接說前款以外之學者、專家、痘號包括職能治療師等呢這樣會不會這個地位就更明確然後也不會感覺上排擠到第一項的人員的參與"},{"start":6384.477,"end":6391.189,"text":"因為大家都希望能夠有更好的身份一起來貢獻這一塊嘛都是正面的來 最後一步可以嗎"},{"start":6392.685,"end":6419.053,"text":"我還是想要支持在第一項教育部也可以在不過我們說實在在我們自己在這個在真的第一線的工作上面的確就是他所條列的臨床諮商社工跟精神這四個大項是我們一般所對準的一個直接的一個對象這是事實這絕對是事實了因為我後面還有太多太多所以他才特別用第二這叫款嗎對不起我也同樣地問"},{"start":6419.833,"end":6431.624,"text":"所以才會在第二款之外把一些額外的部分把它做條列不過這一點我們不堅持我們教育部的意見因為有這麼堅持嗎教育部不好意思因為這是對象的問題教育部比較簡單的方式來說第一款是主力學生輔導的主力就是靠這四類人員"},{"start":6448.274,"end":6467.533,"text":"對 那職能治療、家庭輔導或者法律服務他其實是站在後面第二線支援的就是當我前面這四類我覺得他的有些問題我沒辦法處理我需要外面的人進來支援他才會拉到第二線去啦所以如果要放在第二款如同剛才"},{"start":6469.275,"end":6472.557,"text":"委員范雲等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":6490.879,"end":6510.439,"text":"我剛剛那個問題司長沒有回應我耶就是說第二項到底就是我們所講的這些相關專業人員裡面組成上有沒有專輔人員因為你那個部分如果是臨床心理師、資深心理師等等但他都沒有參加到學校的專輔人員的話這個部分是不是可以說明一下"},{"start":6512.801,"end":6523.332,"text":"請說我先說其實在第一款的心理師設公司其實就包含在裡面的你當然也可以聘你的輔治中心的"},{"start":6524.696,"end":6552.365,"text":"主任或者是督導當然可以拚但你覺得我可能需要更師傅級的把專家他就第一項了通常我們都認為這種比較屬於事務層級他可能是工作小組的他不會是放在諮詢委員會裡面的以上說明能不能在那個說明欄裡面讓那個學校的那個輔助中心的人也會有參與的代表在裡面好不好"},{"start":6553.34,"end":6553.62,"text":"請衛福部來回應一下"},{"start":6574.966,"end":6594.798,"text":"我來回應好了啦通常我所以學校在我們的實務工作現場當中他們第一款所提到的這個相關專業人員來說我們完全沒有否定職能治療師的一個專業這絕對是個事實但是在我們的group大家一起來工作的話的確臨床諮商社工跟精神這四款通常就是我們主軸的一個範圍"},{"start":6595.858,"end":6596.178,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":6625.738,"end":6625.918,"text":"佳玲"},{"start":6653.41,"end":6657.796,"text":"教育輔導、心理、犯罪防治、職能治療或藝術治療等相關學者專家"},{"start":6667.202,"end":6681.015,"text":"是 不好意思沒有辦法了啦 那個廷偉我講完就好了你可以 好感謝所有台中職能治療協會感謝羅廷偉委員為他們大力的支持因為沒有放進去都是因為其他委員認為在立法說明"},{"start":6682.196,"end":6684.597,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":6707.851,"end":6724.985,"text":"這次感謝張雅琳委員跟羅廷偉委員作為會議記錄他們從第一次到現在每一天都為職能治療師來做最強力的發言我們都感受到了所以我們一定你還可以好了還有個方式啦我們可以把那個職能治療藝術的往前放這樣好不好在裡面幫你有"},{"start":6725.285,"end":6725.425,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6747.761,"end":6769.459,"text":"我幫兩位委員問一下既然都要寫進立法說明了在相關的實務上通常寫進立法說明學校或者是主管機關在組成這個學生輔導諮詢會的時候他們就有機會有這個法源依據可以邀請嗎那會有什麼實務上的困難讓兩位委員知道一下好不好實務上會有什麼困難"},{"start":6771.045,"end":6797.776,"text":"讓他們原本想要照顧的團體的意見在實際的執行上可能會有遇到什麼樣的困難?除了張偉剛說的過往的工作慣性這個我們都可以理解會有什麼樣的困難嗎?如果沒有就說沒有這樣兩位委員就比較放心我先說因為前面講的那個諮商心理師、臨床心理師、設公司跟計程可以支持主力"},{"start":6798.649,"end":6822.546,"text":"他一定是介入性輔導到一個程度進入到處遇性的時候這個還是有特殊的需求他會依照學生的需求去整合服務所以那個部分就是依學生的需求那你可以理解嗎我們的輔資會定期開會很有可能這次討論談不到職能治療下一次談 談不到職能治療我想各位可以理解我講的問題嗎"},{"start":6823.587,"end":6852.239,"text":"有學生的問題因為他們討論的會從政策輔導政策規劃資源配置整體討論可是如果你沒有察覺有特殊的問題他就不會討論到職能治療的問題那那個人他來他只能對於我們的輔導工作有整體的理解一下參與過程給意見可是他不一定能討論到職能治療的議題我覺得這是事務上的限制若各委員都已經充分表達意見我們事務第五條就修正完通過謝謝那我們七支一條是陳培宇委員"},{"start":6856.294,"end":6866.858,"text":"被點名我已經講很多了可不可以直接通過就好我認真再講一次就是那個自殺死因回溯的事情"},{"start":6869.295,"end":6888.449,"text":"我們後來回去重新研究過了我們知道司長上次有講到說學校有那個相關的自殺死因的填報有那個校安事件可是現在實務現場是很多簡單的填一填還有就是他目前都是一個case一個case在填他基本上假設我"},{"start":6888.909,"end":6889.35,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":6904.066,"end":6904.946,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":6918.911,"end":6934.026,"text":"自殺或自殺未遂嚴重自我傷害個案的回顧調查研究公布研究報告把這個研究報告作為後續制定相關政策甚至作為這次學復法修法完之後所有在現場工作的老師們很重要的依據跟參考"},{"start":6936.024,"end":6959.518,"text":"那因為我認為我現在的七之一它不涉及組織的設立也不涉及人事的安排其實沒有動用到所謂人事相關的規範應該不會要讓人種或是族種再跑出來這樣所以到底現在的困難是不能還是不願意還是說到底還有什麼困難的地方是我們所沒有設想到的那還是要請教育部回應 謝謝"},{"start":6961.673,"end":6973.212,"text":"好 教育部然後呢我特別附帶剛剛沒有提到的七之一部分我們還有范雲委員跟張雅琳委員所提出的修正動議還有陳培余的附帶決議好吧 我們一併來討論"},{"start":6976.892,"end":6988.455,"text":"好 針對第七條之一我先做補充其實布里頭這幾年因為感受到自殺通報的數量增加很重視這個議題所以我們在111年的時候曾經檢討過我們的各級學校的自殺防..."},{"start":6997.837,"end":7021.873,"text":"全自我傷害的三級預防工作計畫其實經過很懇切的檢討花了半年多的時間委託亞洲大學的科副校長然後也邀請很多學生提供意見所以已經完成了那個工作計畫的修訂在這個工作計畫當中修訂有一個很重要的精神就是針對每一個不幸的個案後面因為輔導人員在過程當中會有"},{"start":7024.855,"end":7025.195,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":7038.41,"end":7039.11,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":7068.951,"end":7069.251,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":7093.493,"end":7108.023,"text":"那當然我覺得這塊就是運作上確實有相當程度的難度那尤其是在委員所提到的那個第七條之一的第二項是要把那個調查研究辦法置立成法規我們認為這個涉及專業的問題還有這個議題坦白講是需要"},{"start":7113.807,"end":7140.283,"text":"相當充分的討論那我們是建議說能不能不要急著第七條之一就入法能允許我們因為培育委員有提了一個附帶決議那我們是希望能夠依照陳培育委員的附帶決議我們來配合辦理那我們也很誠懇的願意來做這件事情邀集包括學者專家還有輔導工作者來進一步的做討論我們確實需要藉由研究調查而且兼顧質與量"},{"start":7142.191,"end":7142.431,"text":"佩玉委員"},{"start":7160.78,"end":7165.582,"text":"請問教育部會定期做一些相關研究嗎?在我的版本裡面並沒有第二項,那你覺得第一項的內容這樣是可以嗎?大家請教育部來回應陳菲玉委員還是范雲委員范雲委員先好了"},{"start":7191.115,"end":7211.673,"text":"我本來是針對陳培委員的修正因為我覺得如果能夠加上就是對學生身心健康不利這個文字及知識統性因素逐年公佈去識別化之研究報告的話可能大家看到這個部分壓力就會小很多因為"},{"start":7212.814,"end":7227.613,"text":"衛福部對我講到說其實這一類的個案非常難做因為自殺被污名化遺族悲傷調適的歷程跟相關方法的問題因為之前我記得我們公聽會的時候衛福部的這個說法"},{"start":7229.235,"end":7251.201,"text":"很多相關學者專家都認為不是這個樣子這跟你的研究方法跟各方有關但這個其實是需要蠻多專業的討論所以我也不堅持一定要放在這最重要是說這個要做系統性的研究因為譬如說怡瑾跟我我們是念社會學的我們就覺得不一定要去觸及到個案"},{"start":7251.601,"end":7251.801,"text":"主席"},{"start":7267.085,"end":7291.744,"text":"我個人真的是覺得我們可以看一下這個培育委員的附帶決議我還是覺得7-1這個部分在我們討論學粉我自殺防治沒有人認為它絕對是重中之重但是應該去思考一下就是7-1有沒有必要把它放在正式的條文當中放在這一部法當中來做一個處理我覺得這位可能是等下教育部要表達一下意見的好不好"},{"start":7292.754,"end":7307.381,"text":"我們在討論的那個我們在討論的時候其實有講過這個我也覺得很重要所以我主張我以前在做那個兒少全法的時候其實是要求那個六歲以下做那個死嬰逐一回合對入法但是因為六歲以下的樣態是因為他沒辦法表達"},{"start":7307.961,"end":7308.321,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":7323.683,"end":7345.224,"text":"我想那個昭偉是學那個應該知道就是說他可能去遇到感情問題同儕問題老師問題或者各種問題那如果每個族裔都要去做研究的話那事實上也不是不行我覺得很重要嘛對不對但是曾經我就問他們說那為什麼不能做他說因為曾經有這個計畫做好之後錢準備好要發包沒有人要做就是"},{"start":7347.338,"end":7372.932,"text":"那個你招標要招標嗎就是可能就是范雲委員講的就是說這類的案子在實務上你要去做研究的時候對很多家庭的個案那個已經是傷心事你再問我就拒絕所以它會有很多很難做的好那是不是就不能做那個因素的回顧呢死因因素的回顧呢是可以就是說它有一些其實在發生當下的時候其實已經有一些"},{"start":7374.093,"end":7398.588,"text":"有一些勾選或者做一些報告我是建議說那個報告可以再精進一點那將來可以拿那些東西來做一些那個因素的分析然後能夠從分析的因素裡面去找到可以預防的方式啦其實最近韓國他們也有這個問題韓國跟台灣的學生自殺率都很高他們最近也在訂一些計畫那希望3年後5年後能夠降低啦"},{"start":7399.088,"end":7399.929,"text":"佩玉委員可以同意嗎?用附帶決議的方式"},{"start":7428.312,"end":7443.513,"text":"我情感上有所保留但理智上我可以同意所謂情感上有所保留的意思就是說其實剛剛張大次長講了一個很重要的原因就是韓國跟我們台灣一樣的那個困境其實剛剛兩位長官所講的"},{"start":7445.936,"end":7462.29,"text":"其實用我的話講是一樣的就是我們其實大人都不知道原因那研究的方法我也認同它有系統性的回顧調查很好沒有一定要逐案所以我也如果要回到條文來看我沒有要堅持逐案然後相關的辦法本來在研究上它就會有各式各樣的"},{"start":7463.691,"end":7486.485,"text":"典範可以去討論可以去做研究甚至如把不同跨學科的人邀請進來都是重要的但我還是認為如果不入法那我想要請問一下附帶決議我們當然知道它相關的效應是有的可是它也可能相對是薄弱的我想大家都非常清楚所以要求入法這件事情我只是覺得學輔法今年修完再一次修又不知之何日何月何日何年"},{"start":7487.506,"end":7495.393,"text":"所以如果我們更改一個寫法有沒有機會還是入法不要用附帶決議就是甚至參考范雲委員的版本我也覺得很OK我沒有一定要逐萬回顧研究這樣"},{"start":7498.23,"end":7498.791,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7521.711,"end":7521.851,"text":"第十條"},{"start":7536.448,"end":7560.666,"text":"好了就還是在這個班級的這個層面當中啦大家都已經講說20班嘛對不對然後呢12班高級中學是沒有問題12班嘛然後呢國民中學還有大家在國民小學的這個部分裡面目前為止在第十條裡面有羅廷偉委員陳培鈺委員柯珍委員范雲委員特別提出來有沒有意見要表達的好林宜瑾委員"},{"start":7564.785,"end":7588.697,"text":"羅廷瑋委員第十條因為這次我們的條文在高中輔導老師的緣額沒有動上次范雲委員有提到一個關鍵就是兼任輔導主任應補足其他輔導人力的應聘緣額本席也認為說其實如果這所學校比較小"},{"start":7589.397,"end":7614.692,"text":"那只有一個輔導老師專輔老師的話那一個專輔老師同時又擔任主任那恐怕會造成老師真的很忙那學生就會沒有被充分照顧到所以也會讓老師不願意去小校擔任專輔老師所以上次范雲我有建議說要看教育部怎麼樣調整或者是定到執法上那這部分等等請教育部說明好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":7619.378,"end":7619.619,"text":"國庭委委員"},{"start":7626.754,"end":7648.129,"text":"剛剛移情委員有說明的蠻清楚的那就是說因為我們上次第九條已經通過說輔導主管已由輔導專業優先嘛那所以原則上那邊應該是要優先喔那可是這個時候呢其實那個輔導人力他就會受到影響那我收到蠻多的第一線的輔導老師跟輔導主任的反應就真的需要這個條文"},{"start":7649.43,"end":7650.051,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":7667.633,"end":7695.498,"text":"負責的班數人數等於就跟你表象上的這個東西就會受到蠻大的影響那這是第一個就是原本他的輔導的量能就會受影響那第二個其實這兩個工作其實也有一定的角色衝突啊比如你行政工作需要跨單位的協調那容易出現輔導個別協助關係的保密盈利那學生也會比較保留那另外就是家長也會質疑說輔導主任為什麼不能夠用主任身份幫他的小孩爭取權益"},{"start":7696.118,"end":7696.618,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":7722.643,"end":7723.104,"text":"委員陳佩玉等19人擬具"},{"start":7739.319,"end":7758.775,"text":"我覺得現在其實很多的一線的我們這個輔導的老師其實他們最擔心的就是8月1號之後其實是新學期的開始那如果以現行的這個班級數如果真的有下降的話其實他們最擔心的就是自己的工作會不會變動這個部分其實我要幫很多一線的這個輔導人員來稍微問一下這個部分 以上"},{"start":7759.482,"end":7759.622,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":7774.637,"end":7795.8,"text":"平常高中跟國中是沒有問題可是完全中學他們是一體適用的對不對但是你現在目前為止你的主任通常都要專輔人員嘛對不對但是很多國中的時候你如果說他是完全中學的話那國中的主任可能也要受這樣的一個限制但是目前以現實環境來說很多國中的老師他是輔導"},{"start":7796.761,"end":7797.641,"text":"委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1"},{"start":7818.11,"end":7838.527,"text":"佛島主任是一定要是專輔的這樣子的一個背景但是國中的時候並沒有這樣子那你如果說是完全中學的話那你完全中學裡面的國中部也要比照高中部啊那這對他們來說其實會造成一些的困擾如果你不是完全中學沒有這個困擾完全中學就有這個困擾那這是從高級中等教育法裡面要來做一個修法順帶提出來謝謝還有沒有額外的問題沒有我們就請那個陳佩玉委員好不好"},{"start":7846.803,"end":7870.697,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要問一下就是關於從24班就是變20班這件事情我們當然很肯定行政院這邊的調整但是我想要問一下目前我們之前那天的算法是說2088人嘛缺口對不對好 那如果把范雲委員剛剛建議放進來就是他們被抓去當行政的時候我們就要再把人力補上會變成2400人的缺口嗎"},{"start":7872.148,"end":7882.535,"text":"如果是的話利益良好但是還是要拜託教育部再積極推動那個人力補上來這件事情目前的工作規劃進度又會是什麼這樣好 謝謝"},{"start":7889.42,"end":7906.508,"text":"相對而言也有陳培宇委員的附帶決議是不是可以統一一起來去做這樣處理其實就是他剛所提到的嘛是不是可以請這個教育部根據這個附帶決議還是范雲委員他所提到的在這個所關切的問題是不是可以一併來做一個回應好不好"},{"start":7921.661,"end":7921.841,"text":"郭中曉議員"},{"start":7928.106,"end":7955.171,"text":"那還沒有講高中那高中的情況更嚴重因為這次我們修法高中的員額並沒有提升而且高中的輔導主管一定是主任輔導教師那他事實上也會吃12班一人的員額那根本沒有一班教師會有輔導專長來兼任的空間那所以那他如果去當主任的話那事實上這個工作量很龐大譬如說我們現在教育部有友善校園、自殺、自傷防治等等"},{"start":7955.751,"end":7976.758,"text":"而且不管學生規模每個學校的行政量都是差不多那實務上也不可能出現說讓所有專輔教師來分擔行政工作的情況所以這邊其實就會有衝突在人力的部分那真的很希望教育部還是可以考量這些狀況這一次就能夠一併改善"},{"start":7982.057,"end":8005.683,"text":"我分成三點說明第一個我們的國小輔導老師通常都有兩個專長一個專長是一般教師可以當級任可以當科任因為國小是包辦制的嘛他是一般教師的身份第二個因為他有修了輔導第二專長的學分有加助輔導專長所以他也可以擔任專任輔導老師"},{"start":8008.204,"end":8033.171,"text":"國小的部分雙重資格國中也一樣國中的輔導老師他也是這樣他既是國中輔導活動課的老師他也可以擔任國中的專任輔導老師他也是雙重身份那我想高中有類似的問題這都是雙重因為他都被要求具有該階段的老師資格同時又有輔導專長雙重"},{"start":8035.011,"end":8047.037,"text":"如果他要兼任行政的話其實校內如果有職缺可以調整只要把他的職缺調整為一般課一般的老師或者調整為輔導活動課的老師他來擔任輔導主任的時候"},{"start":8053.407,"end":8069.858,"text":"因為國教署定有那個擔任主任的授課時數對,他會減然後他的課自然會有其他老師幫忙分攤超終點處理掉了那換句話說他當他調整為一般老師的時候他專任輔導老師就缺就補出來啦"},{"start":8070.498,"end":8071.299,"text":"委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1"},{"start":8086.65,"end":8086.83,"text":"委員黃秀芳等1"},{"start":8104.324,"end":8131.342,"text":"第二點就是高級中等學校比較特別是因為在高級中等教育法裡頭規定他的輔導主任必須要由高中的專任輔導老師來擔任那他被限制住了你知道嗎你只能是專任輔導師來兼任不像我們剛才國中國小是可以轉成一班老師再來對是是是"},{"start":8133.596,"end":8159.349,"text":"因為完全中學是以上位階的學校來當配置的它是以高級終點教育法來任用所以有同樣的問題那我想這一塊等一下看國教署是不是有一些想法可以來處理因為一般老師擔任他就是你超售課終點費嘛給錢他就超中其他班那這一塊就是他可能需要增加的是輔導資源那這個和國教署可不可以補充對"},{"start":8162.628,"end":8163.009,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8170.431,"end":8197.197,"text":"謝謝趙薇跟各位委員的提問剛才吳司長其實大體上都講得非常的清楚那現在就是可能有一些面臨的困境怎麼幫忙一起來處理首先先講兼主任就是幾位委員再來是趙薇講到完中兼主任這個剛才剛好范雲委員提到了一個詞那個詞很特別您剛才講到主任"},{"start":8198.584,"end":8199.245,"text":"主任專輔教師"},{"start":8215.836,"end":8241.046,"text":"就跟教官一樣有主教他基本上去完成該校這一類的工作所以當時立法委員們的設計就有這樣只是說主任專輔教授好像出現了這個那跟主任跟輔導主任會不會又怎麼樣所以把它變成叫輔導主任因此只有他能夠去當輔導主任"},{"start":8243.793,"end":8265.984,"text":"所以在這個脈絡下當時的立法者很感謝剛好范雲委員提出這一段但是時事所趨103年、102年的背景到現在10年後有沒有更要小心現在老師的處境學生的需求這個是不是給我們一點時間雖然"},{"start":8267.785,"end":8269.706,"text":"至於國中小的部分那個兼任基本上"},{"start":8291.038,"end":8316.216,"text":"有三個縣市左右他是沒有辦法去換鬼來考主任以國民教育法的國中小主任他一定經過甄選處訓所以他一開始就不讓他來考所以他要去兼也不行所以有三個縣市不會發生委員講的問題因為他跑不過來主任鬼"},{"start":8317.304,"end":8335.209,"text":"大概有三個以上的縣市 這要查有很多現在的確會有委員講的這個情況但是實務上他們還是會先找一般這邊因為輔導老師的資源已經很少也跟各位委員報告我查了一下 有一千位老師他因為具有雙證嘛他就到了這個一般老師這邊"},{"start":8343.328,"end":8361.04,"text":"其實培育委員也有提到這夠不夠有一千多位出頭一點他是跑到一班這邊屆時整體的運作他如果基於學校的安排有一些現在有些縣市在做這個甄選的時候"},{"start":8362.341,"end":8362.662,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8377.662,"end":8379.083,"text":"委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1"},{"start":8407.216,"end":8418.063,"text":"這一個專府人員那個 剛才也有當然郭委員所提 絕對不會 絕對不會全部都不會因為修法有任何的 不會因為它這樣而影響 不會因為班級數"},{"start":8423.987,"end":8434.652,"text":"這個我們馬上會盤點一下因為法的方向蠻明確的我們馬上會掌握不要影響它不要在這個空窗當中7月30號就要重新7月30號是個截止時間的時候好不好因為這個修法的方式也蠻明確的我們馬上會做調查跟關心跟處置好"},{"start":8442.116,"end":8461.272,"text":"好,就麻煩給這些老師,現在真的是串在蛋上來,佩玉委員謝謝主席我要echo一下范雲委員剛剛那個事情可是因為署長剛剛回了一個說法,我有點疑問我3號記得這個東西現在已經沒有了主任專輔教師,我記得是沒有了吧"},{"start":8463.181,"end":8477.777,"text":"她是源自於這裡啦主任專門教授現在已經沒有這個名詞了啦現在已經沒有這個名詞了那是久一些啦所以還是回歸到你們還是要回去盤點嗎好我想說怎麼會有這個回答好OK謝謝她是從盤古開天說起啦好不好"},{"start":8479.358,"end":8501.089,"text":"第十條我們就是保留好不好再一次的保留因為既然新字都保留這一件就沒什麼好特別就保留那麻煩我們剛剛委員所提到意見麻煩帶回去我們下一次再來討論的時候就一定要更確實好了我們現在進入那也是一樣附帶決議那個陳培偉的附帶決議也是一貫保留了好不好可以來我們第十一條十一條討論完後面就那個了十一條"},{"start":8504.551,"end":8515.502,"text":"是一條最大的部分裡面就是我們用效的方法可是現在目前有很多助效的老師就引發非常大的焦慮他們還是很希望能夠把55班降為40班我們算出來55班能夠降為40班這樣的概念"},{"start":8521.869,"end":8523.169,"text":"委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1"},{"start":8549.156,"end":8566.831,"text":"教育部用了20校的這種說法那你用4500到5000這是用基點嘛 這點數嘛那這個點數跟這個助校來說的話大家還是 因為你如果用基點的話你可以讓大家不要能夠統籌來做一個分配嘛可是對很多大校對助校老師他很希望"},{"start":8567.532,"end":8595.728,"text":"不要被分配出去好不好這是個點這是你寫法的問題所以你要採取一個用20校的這種說法然後你用點數的這個說法那你如何保障有一些學校比較大的這些人他們這些駐校老師能夠因此就可以留下來我覺得這個是教育部必須要解決的好不好就是第十一條還有沒有我先說完完畢還有沒有還沒有要補充的好還要補充是吧我以為我已經補充很詳盡了來"},{"start":8597.909,"end":8625.817,"text":"來來來 林宜瑾委員 郭老師 范雲委員好 謝謝主席再次這個就是加強這個交委的這個這個這個版本 就是說其實每四十班以上應設置這個一名我覺得這個是參照像我的版本是參照學生衛生法因為我學生衛生法規定就是每四十班以上應設置這個營養師一人那學校護理人員也每校治醫人"},{"start":8626.457,"end":8645.356,"text":"所以我覺得還是請教育部要慎重考慮一下讓這個高級中等以下的學校班級數在40班以上的要設專業輔導人員一人那還有就是說高中以下學校主管機關若所匣的校數是15校以下的必須要設置一名的專業輔導人員我覺得這個是我們還蠻堅持的以上"},{"start":8651.243,"end":8666.486,"text":"那我的意見也是跟兩位一樣第一個就是還是希望輔助中級專輔人比例可以下修到每15校1人那第二個就是大校剛剛昭偉也有講到大校助校的專輔人員我們專業團體真的認為非常的需要那所以這一點雖然上次JB有講你們的考慮希望統籌運用那可是真實狀況那真的還是"},{"start":8679.109,"end":8706.723,"text":"非常多專業團體的反應覺得應該要保留大校的駐校專輔人員我還有一個附帶決議是幫專科以上的學校講話希望說他們的薪資也是有提升的必要所以到時候如果我們薪資提升的時候希望也能夠處理專科以上學校專輔人員的薪資不過這個部分可能我們十一條要保留那就可以一起保留"},{"start":8706.943,"end":8707.103,"text":"陳培余委員"},{"start":8722.102,"end":8740.749,"text":"好可以認同前面幾位委員的發言齁我也希望呢這個部分教育部可以正面的回應來跟我們探討這個問題也希望今天這一條是不是能夠露出一些曙光齁不要是保留我們可以正面的就看到兩位的附帶決議齁我也個人覺得非常認同也希望朝這個方向來努力以上"},{"start":8743.275,"end":8765.2,"text":"謝謝羅廷文委員 文春生委員今天立法院很忙 其實包括很多委員會都在協商我也覺得我們教文非常努力 從早上協商到現在一片和諧 一片看著各個政黨 其實意見都很一致教育部好像問題都出在教育部"},{"start":8766.8,"end":8767.12,"text":"臺灣民眾黨支持"},{"start":8781.476,"end":8781.696,"text":"《大少》55班"},{"start":8798.146,"end":8815.554,"text":"如果自己算沒有算錯55班是不是372那如果改成40班就變738那如果再往下那個人數又會是多少我覺得可不可以請教一部說明一下讓大家更心裡有數那而且如果大小條款通過然後改成40那總應聘人數的那個翻倍狀況又會是什麼樣子"},{"start":8817.635,"end":8844.942,"text":"那另外剛剛那個移警委員有問我說科委員有一個科招委有一個第十一條附帶決議關於住校模式的事情我想要確認一下好免得我們搞錯這個所謂住校的那個專輔大校的住校他們的人力的算法是放在輔資中心只是被調派去學校嗎還是還是那個是學校額外自己聘請的因為如果他是從輔資中心調過去的"},{"start":8846.002,"end":8864.389,"text":"那他不就又吃掉了輔資中心我們原本要回來的人嗎多要來的人嗎我不確定就是請你們算那個數字給我聽免得我們這個寫法造成了我們對於現場的不理解他到底是誰算誰的人算誰的緣額這樣因為我們好不容易"},{"start":8865.299,"end":8865.379,"text":"主席"},{"start":8878.171,"end":8878.291,"text":"佳麗娟議員"},{"start":8898.5,"end":8898.8,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":8917.827,"end":8920.668,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":8945.339,"end":8958.415,"text":"好 我想要針對就是前面有特別講到就是說那個高級中等以下的那個學校輔導的案量跟地理地區的一些特殊的一個情況然後就是在這個專業輔導人員的總數是6%的一個範圍之內包含這些"},{"start":8962.72,"end":8987.357,"text":"那我想這個有沒有明確的一個規範因為包含我們知道在這個偏遠地區的一個學校院上次其實我也有講過就是我們總計這個學校的學校數是1205所那這個6%是不是有一個明確的規範還有他們的一個輔導安量還有那個地區的區域地理的區域的部分是不是能夠再更明確的定義一下會可能會比較清楚 以上"},{"start":8991.55,"end":9005.826,"text":"好 其實我也是想要特別幫助校的輔導人員來去爭取一下因為他們其實其實有非常多的過去都有非常多的文獻去講助校模式的價值所以還是希望說在我們這次的修法版本還是可以去保留助校的這個模式 謝謝"},{"start":9008.854,"end":9017.801,"text":"好 那我們是不是請教育部一併來做說明我知道你們利益良善啦然後大家也覺得你們已經有所了但是我還是認為那個 我說實話還是要回應到上次的20校改為15校也不過多了58人可不可以考慮一下 好不好好啦 來請司長"},{"start":9024.827,"end":9048.281,"text":"好 首先說明現行的學生輔導法第十一條就有規定縣市主管機關的輔資中心是可以統籌調派主校的人員現行法就是這樣那實務上運作上六個直轄室裡頭有四個直轄室那個55禮拜他是派在"},{"start":9049.241,"end":9073.199,"text":"學校完全沒有統籌調度有統籌調度的只有臺中跟臺南兩個治轄市至於一般縣市政府統籌調度的情況非常普遍只有兩個縣市完全沒有統籌調度一個是宜蘭另外一個我記得是新竹沒有統籌調度其他的縣市都是統籌調度"},{"start":9075.134,"end":9090.786,"text":"福祉中心統統調度這件事情是目前相關還是普遍存在的那問題是在哪裡就是學校會覺得你那個人是跟你共用的你福祉中心是可以調走對於學校運用這個輔導人員就沒那麼好用"},{"start":9091.246,"end":9112.709,"text":"所以學校希望說你就把它切清楚吧學校希望切清楚專業輔導人也會覺得很辛苦因為我不只服務這個學校輔資中心隨時調度我我還要去支援別的學校從專輔人員的角度從學校的角度他都希望你專心在我這兒但抱歉就人力資源的運用跟整合來講確實由縣市政府的輔助統統是比較"},{"start":9113.49,"end":9114.271,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":9123.939,"end":9151.939,"text":"多數都用心理師 社工師也有少數 但並不多再來就是剛剛柯趙偉所說的因為第十一條其實院版是已經經過很嚴謹的審核通過了要再去改變它是很困難的那我想布里頭在態度上也會希望能夠支持院版能採院版的方式那剛才那個裴育文有問數字的問題我先說明55班以上的學校目前有372校"},{"start":9154.804,"end":9160.906,"text":"若調降為40班以上,校數會倍增,變成738校,總共增加366所學校,比原本的55班以上需要幾乎兩倍若原本按照每20班設一個專輔人員"},{"start":9182.771,"end":9205.797,"text":"一目前的設置大概是200人左右那如果調成每15校設一人它的會增加大概63位左右所增加的人數相對比較少一點點那總而言之我們還是建議第十一條能夠採取院版那可不可以接受我的附帶決議讓駐校老師能夠稍微安心因為剛剛講的其實我剛剛講為什麼"},{"start":9208.459,"end":9234.832,"text":"大型的縣市或人力充足的縣市基本上是希望輔導人員是派駐在大型學校因為大型學校本身需求就比較高而且大型學校通常都在某些區域的地理中心為人口比較密集以它為中心點去調度支援鄰近學校其實是更就近的可以緊急狀況及時支援我想柯昭偉的附帶決議我們是支持的對"},{"start":9235.672,"end":9235.832,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":9253.018,"end":9273.529,"text":"提會的討論的版本是不是就是讓他通過第十一條還有意見好來賴委員當然就是說如果最後真的爭取不到的話那我們怎麼來寫附帶決策討論啊可是我還是希望最後一步考慮一下就是說那個40分以上就能夠助校友專輔人員這部分"},{"start":9273.809,"end":9296.256,"text":"就像剛剛司長講的嘛本來就有協調我們這一次修的它本來就有就是說跟輔助中心的一個協調的一個關係嘛那40班的學校就已經很多人了那為什麼不能夠有一個助校的那個專任專業的輔導人員那這部分我還是希望能夠爭取啦"},{"start":9296.536,"end":9317.626,"text":"那當然就是說你們的版本就是那個20校1人然後我的版本是15校1人的那這部分剛剛有算出來說其實就是增加63個人嘛那當然就是說你說行政院那個我們能不能再爭取剛剛教育部長不是前面就有針對我們的期待他有說他努力再去爭取嗎"},{"start":9318.186,"end":9318.326,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9338.74,"end":9357.228,"text":"所以我們要...好來郭昱晴委員沒有回答我的問題我剛剛說的那個就是根據那個地區還有輔導案量那個6%是不是可以更具體的一個明確的規範那這一塊是不是可以請國教署來協助做補充說明"},{"start":9362.962,"end":9364.123,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9381.271,"end":9384.272,"text":"委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1"},{"start":9409.144,"end":9409.885,"text":"委員黃秀芳等1"},{"start":9422.15,"end":9449.155,"text":"法過了以後會增加192人左右覺得含納得住現行的人嘛就不會動啊可是你如果一直講註效的話那個班級數我們就很不好去幫他了反而用十一條現在的文字原版模式我可以幫忙是為什麼我還沒談十一條要改成現在看到這個我會怕如果用我原來講的我就全部192一定可以吸納所有的人大概這樣"},{"start":9450.656,"end":9457.263,"text":"不過目前為止比較好這樣好嗎就可以解決剛剛的問題以及用移來解決兩個模式會對打的問題大概這樣"},{"start":9461.789,"end":9462.329,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9480.376,"end":9508.645,"text":"他到8月1號怎麼辦的問題我會請那個署長這邊就是發文跟他們講就是說這個目前修法會增加人力所以這部分暫時不會去動盪好不好好 那范委員的意見是怎麼樣還要條文還要繼續保留嗎我剛剛是基於院版裡面提出我的這個所謂附帶決議那你如果連院版裡面都有意見那就看教育部的看法"},{"start":9510.199,"end":9510.499,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9536.676,"end":9559.351,"text":"剛才所提的20改成15並且同時是40班這件事那這樣不是58人對就不是了啦不是不是這樣就425人對不是各位委員各位委員現在是這樣子你55變40跟目前教育部的版本你兩個"},{"start":9561.365,"end":9575.779,"text":"必須要選擇一個啦好不好但是剛才為什麼會有58出來是因為各位委員請看一下我以為齁因為原來召委所提的58那個數字齁是用11條但是微調那個"},{"start":9580.404,"end":9582.744,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":9605.569,"end":9608.454,"text":"主席我問最後一個問題就好了既然要保留了但是請幫我釐清在第幾項"},{"start":9620.993,"end":9644.333,"text":"好 就是第十一條的教育部提會版本你們有一個寫法說依照前兩項的規定所制的專業輔導人員應由高級中等以下學校主管機關統籌調派這個我沒有問題並得委由所設學生輔導諮商中心所在學校或責定之學校聘用之目前實務狀況比較是什麼樣子或者是說它是給地方主管機關自己做選擇嗎還是怎麼樣"},{"start":9653.274,"end":9680.118,"text":"我補充啦實務上因為很少縣市輔治中心是設在縣政府裡面很少因為空間真的有困難大部分都借用學校的場地那也因為借用場地學校場地的關係所以他的人員的聘任、差勤管理、預算執行也都會委託那個所在學校來執行了對對 他就是另外的"},{"start":9680.871,"end":9708.554,"text":"好 既然是保留了好 我現在對於保留我都覺得有點好 那怎麼樣第十一條我們就保留連附帶決議也一併保留好不好但我要跟各位委員報告十二條跟十一條是連動的那你十一條都已經是保留了那十二條要討論啥好吧 也就十二條就保留了好了沒有沒有沒有沒有 只剩下十七而已十七 十七跟十七之一好不好 就是陳佩玉委員的"},{"start":9710.367,"end":9712.788,"text":"委員張雅琳等17人擬具17人擬具17人擬具17人擬具17人擬具17人擬具"},{"start":9733.359,"end":9757.67,"text":"17我直接說教育部一定有困難對討論過了 17要保留那我們今天是幹嘛我先看一下回復到今天的成果一下朝委至少推進一點我可以再回到剛剛那個立法說明嗎因為剛剛並沒有逐字確認我想要確認關於職能治療師的那一段"},{"start":9758.697,"end":9758.757,"text":"第五條 欸第幾條"},{"start":9776.597,"end":9801.158,"text":"看到沒有 各位看清楚兩位而且還把指導智能師我把它放到第一條了你看另第二款名定為前款以外之相關學者專家包含職能治療本來要從第五個序位現在變成第一序位兩位滿意了吧看清楚了 謝謝來來來 各位各位 謝謝兩位"},{"start":9803.942,"end":9814.052,"text":"我們那個還有個通案的附帶決議啊各位我們就看一下通案的附帶決議范雲委員、郭玉琴委員跟張雅琳委員來 最後一步看了嗎通案的附帶決議有嗎不是不是 額外額外我們這十一條就都是保留我們現在有個通案的附帶決議那麼請最後一步看一下"},{"start":9829.246,"end":9855.013,"text":"有鑒於本法增定為成年學生同意下並經個案會議評估有需求時得本與兒少最佳利益不經家長同意進行輔導諮商之規定請教育部於本法通過後半年內與施行細則或相關執法或行政執引中明定不受心理施法限制之例外情形違和並加強與家長之宣傳溝通以減少公眾對心智之疑慮OK嗎OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":9859.738,"end":9881.363,"text":"好來我們協商的結論在各位協商結論協商結論我們不能只確定職能治療這四個字就變成我們協商決議沒這回事等一下好我想說是不是建議一下這個已出審通過的條文還有立法說明會有是不是由教育部重整文資之後提供我們教育委員會是好不好可以教育部可以嗎好謝謝那我們等一下的最後的部分"},{"start":9885.801,"end":9909.76,"text":"好 那我們各位我們聽一下我們今天協商結論第四條第五條修正通過然後呢增訂第七條之一第十條十一條第十二條第十七條及增訂第十七條之一含各條對應修正的動議文保留我們就送院會處理好 那院會協商院會協商"},{"start":9911.943,"end":9932.776,"text":"好 那我們通過附帶決議共一項然後原審查會保留及新增附帶決議共15案均保留送院會協商其餘均照審查會審查結果通過那檢附立法說明一份那我們目前就是我們的今天所得到的結場結論大家有沒有意見好 非常感謝各位 謝謝來 我們簽名一下好不好"},{"start":9939.889,"end":9940.51,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9948.546,"end":9972.942,"text":"來 周偉辛苦了你們沒完沒了 我們到底是誰 沒錯加油加油 已經越來越好了 越來越好簽名簽名 簽名很大的進度了很大的進度了起碼讓人家7月30號的那個人家可以得到確診書辛苦了我從早上跑到這邊你跑到這邊我們也是好不好我們也是我還要回去弄"},{"start":9977.543,"end":9978.063,"text":"編曲 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{"start":2519.929,"end":2539.303,"text":"那就是我們從待遇端開始先把他拉高嘛所以他就會維持這個制度上面的所謂前後端的橫屏也是在前端的時候他就拉高所以他的腳配的標準就會跟這個後端領取的時候是一個橫屏的狀態所以他現在的"},{"start":2539.983,"end":2550.925,"text":"差距同樣等階的警校跟非警校大概會差9000到16000,這個我們就是不包括像雙北那個比較有特別"},{"start":2551.87,"end":2580.108,"text":"之給的一個情形然後它危老的設計上面也是在自願退跟借退有降臨的一個狀態那自願退大概是差10年也是讓這部分的同仁真的很辛苦讓他可以早一點領退休金因為退休金的啟資年齡也目前是差5歲到65歲大概做這樣的一個設計那這個慰問金的部分也把它差距拉出來"},{"start":2581.038,"end":2598.511,"text":"那我們就退休的狀況來看現在退休的平均年齡這個警校人員因為有降齡的關係所以他是55.59歲那非警校是60.25那這樣看起來差距就是有一點差距拉出來"},{"start":2601.655,"end":2618.953,"text":"在上次有很多人有些媒體有報導對於有一個質疑就是說景蕭同仁退休以後的平均死亡年齡到底跟國人是不是有比較低我們這個數據是從警政署的網站公開的資料"},{"start":2620.515,"end":2639.572,"text":"去接取的,就是看起來是接近啦然後我們自己在109年游益蘭委員其實也要我們全區府有做過平均餘命的一個這個精算那我們那次是委託精算公司去做處理那以65歲的"},{"start":2641.354,"end":2648.358,"text":"平均餘命退休後,景蕭同仁及國人接近,以退平均月退休金"},{"start":2663.018,"end":2680.053,"text":"會比非警消大概多四千塊一個月那他的退休金的積聚因為前端制度的設計讓他的縫集把他拉開所以現在看起來落在五萬到七萬的警消的統領是69.1%那在"},{"start":2683.155,"end":2708.316,"text":"四萬到六萬的非警消的一般公務通行是59.1%這個是以現況的呈現修法後大概會造成的情形就是修法後以退休的因為他已經退休了他就不會再扣他的錢所以他大概就維持在六萬左右"},{"start":2709.717,"end":2737.023,"text":"我們是用這個因為警校大概八成都是警政事階退休啦所以我們就用警政事階這個階級來做處理那非警校的同仁因為他還會所得替代還會持續下降所以從113到118還會從四萬九大概降到四萬四左右那修法前後如果是修法過了以後新退的就是警政事階的同仁會從大概六萬"},{"start":2738.479,"end":2758.897,"text":"二千多到會拉高到七萬九那鑑認第六指等的部分因為他沒有適用這端所以他是一個持平的狀態就五萬三大概一三到一八大概是一樣的狀態那財務的影響就是我們上次也很也很佩服這個"},{"start":2760.851,"end":2780.421,"text":"國常委員希望我們做負責任的主管機關應該是要有比較精確一點的數據來讓大家做參考讓這個政策的決定能夠更周延所以我們現在這樣算出來政府的支出修法以後這樣會增加"},{"start":2782.142,"end":2800.248,"text":"我們是用50年啦,因為退伏法上面的規範就希望我們是每三年精算一次,然後每次的精算都是用50年所以我們是也盡量不要自己再創一個不同的模式所以政府的支出是會增加3117億"},{"start":2805.021,"end":2812.872,"text":"這是政府的支出增加那對基金的影響就是本來要扣的扣不到了就是"},{"start":2815.319,"end":2836.9,"text":"本來給予預註到基金的部分就是政府因為給予必須編列預算到基金來預註的部分大概會少掉1093億那上次我們是的出估是講1080億那這是經過精算師的協助大概數據差距不大很接近這是1093"},{"start":2839.122,"end":2854.322,"text":"那基金的支出大概會要增加668億那在這個收入依住減少支出增加的狀態之下那個流量"},{"start":2855.143,"end":2871.585,"text":"就是我們現在這個跑出來我們也是在金鑽石協助之下他是沒有委託他們但是因為他是我們之前有委託他其他案子所以他也有了協力來幫我們做一個比較一個可靠的一個"},{"start":2873.174,"end":2898.287,"text":"一個估算的方式所以他的這個用盡年度就會提早兩年以現在就是本來年改是希望能夠到140年那因為上次12年7月1號以後那個個人專戶制實施之後當然那個進水量就變少了所以那一部分現在有一萬多人那是"},{"start":2898.767,"end":2912.814,"text":"另外一個儲金在做處理所以就會提早到134年那當然現在是政府在持續撥補那如果這個修正再通過的話就會再提早兩年"},{"start":2913.769,"end":2935.578,"text":"那剛剛要特別跟黃委員報告的就是我們有一個很困難的點就是很困難的點就是那個基金是大家一起參與的那照理說應該是繳費的標準跟你這個給付的標準應該是一樣那現在我們都是用本分兩倍在在做處理那所以"},{"start":2936.178,"end":2956.544,"text":"我們可以按照委員的要求去算85、75、80等等這些擬具不過這個核心的問題會讓我們很難去面對其他的公務人員我們如果要告訴他說你的這個繳費的標準是一樣的然後你將來領的是不一樣的"},{"start":2957.364,"end":2980.395,"text":"那公園的心理的那種衝擊是我們一個負責任的主管機關我們必須要說出來的所以我們為什麼會一直立場很堅定的要呼籲、要建議委員們能夠看到我們現在提出來這個問題"},{"start":2981.736,"end":3007.174,"text":"就是這個部分是比較比較辛苦的部分就是我有想這個比較以上跟委員做報告那委員的那個剛才希望我們再做補充這個做估算的部分我們回去可以再跟我們的同仁再討論一下那個時間到底多久我們能夠趕得出來然後再跟委員回報再把資料送到立法院來"},{"start":3009.06,"end":3025.598,"text":"不好意思,中介我再補一下就是說非常感謝你的說明那剛剛你講到的那些方方面面的考慮這段時間各方面的聲音我們其實都有聽到那我只是要再特別強調一下就是說以我們現在"},{"start":3027.937,"end":3054.159,"text":"聽了很多聲音在這個社會裡面真的對我們的警消統人是有相當高程度的支持這個不是我捏造出來的但如同你所說的我們怎麼樣去維持一個橫貧以及年輕永續這樣子的一個想法以及政府在這個過程裡面扮演的角色"},{"start":3055.26,"end":3071.429,"text":"以及如果說要對於警校的同仁政府應該給他們更好的待遇因為現在整個人力的結構從上一次我看警政署所提出來的數字人力的結構事實上已經真的在改變當中了"},{"start":3073.03,"end":3091.385,"text":"那那個所謂衝擊到的還有外部社會成本的問題那個我們要一併的把它考慮在這裡面那正是因為有很多方方面面的考慮我們必須要綜合的來考量所以我才會請全區部的同仁稍微再辛苦一點你們後面的那個"},{"start":3092.806,"end":3108.668,"text":"包括政府的給付、然後資金的溢出、支出跟用盡的年度就是在不同的所得替代率的情境下可以把那個具體的數字特別是因為你現在是一下子是拉50年嘛"},{"start":3111.796,"end":3131.866,"text":"對吧,你是用50年當估算嗎?跟委員報告,就是我剛剛有跟委員報告就是因為我們的退伏法上面這個精算都是用50年來做出來的這個我不挑戰啦,就是你就維持你本來的model就好了"},{"start":3132.446,"end":3155.57,"text":"我只是因為你們data保護得很好嘛data在你們你們把data保護好所以是應該的事情那用你們那個data用一樣的公式那用不一樣的參數把數字跑出來讓我們可以有一個依循好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝黃委員那我們還是把"},{"start":3161.687,"end":3188.873,"text":"沒有人來不一樣我們還是第二案的行政部門的代表出席有空勤總隊的副總隊長周鴻升全區部政次張修遠人事行政總處的副處長李美惠還尋屬人事室主任陳旺順"},{"start":3190.885,"end":3213.731,"text":"民用航空局人事室主任張蘭華國防部資源規劃司司長鄧克雄主計總處基金預算處科長周明正其餘的我就不一一介紹"},{"start":3219.059,"end":3235.234,"text":"那我們現在進行主案的建議協商那協商時候請參閱協商條文對照表、審查報告還有寄附二讀提案官新聞書與會委員如果有修正動議或機關有建議內容請提出書面應發現場進行討論"},{"start":3269.318,"end":3271.972,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商"},{"start":3274.902,"end":3303.371,"text":"法制委員併案審查委員黃健豪等20人、委員徐巧芯等18人分別擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案、委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案、委員王育敏等20人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人分別擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案、"},{"start":3304.511,"end":3324.84,"text":"委員蘇清泉等28人擬具《中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百六條之一條文修正草案》、國民黨黨團委員柯之恩等19人、委員徐欣穎等18人及委員陳昌明等22人分別擬具《中華民國刑法第二百六條修正草案》等10案"},{"start":3325.62,"end":3345.508,"text":"院會禁賦二讀委員賴士寶等17人、委員陳清輝等20人、委員盧憲毅等17人及委員盧明哲等18人等提案其次委員會抽出禁賦二讀委員徐宇貞等22人提案法案審查會前一"},{"start":3346.868,"end":3361.355,"text":"本今年度4月17日審查完略審查結果第七七條增訂第二七二條之一第二八六條及第二八六條之一均保留送院會處理並決議院會前討論前交由黨團協商"},{"start":3366.658,"end":3386.608,"text":"並定第十一次院會將委員賴世寶等17人、委員陳靜惠等20人及委員盧憲英等17人提案禁復二讀第十二次院會將委員徐宇貞等22人提案至委員會抽出禁復二讀第十三次院會將委員魯明哲等18"},{"start":3388.544,"end":3410.919,"text":"提案淨附二讀與相關提案併案審查以上共計15萬與今日併案進行協商現在先請與會機關代表說明並請委員進行討論請問一下與會的機關代表有沒有要說明沒有有嗎好沒有的話請問與會的委員有要說明沒有"},{"start":3417.48,"end":3436.596,"text":"因為本日的協商由黨團代表未出席討論無法達成共識所以後續會依據立法院職權刑事法第十二章的相關規定我們已請院長召開黨團協商會議再進行協商謝謝各位那我們現在進行第二案"},{"start":3440.771,"end":3462.784,"text":"繼續進行第二案協商保釋法及法制內政兩委會併案審查蘇星權等27人擬具警察人員人事條例修正第35條條文及增訂附表三草案委員萬美玲等19人、委員葉榮介等19人、委員王宏威等29人委員丁學忠等17人、委員顏寬衍等20人"},{"start":3465.405,"end":3482.763,"text":"分別擬具警察人員人事條例第35條條文修正草案、委員鄭天才等18人擬具警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案、委員林詩敏等23人擬具警察人員人事條例第35條條文修正草案"},{"start":3483.769,"end":3502.011,"text":"委員吳立華等16人擬具《警察人員人事條例》第35條及第36條條文修正草案、委員王鴻薇等18人、委員游皓38人及委員張志文等17人分別擬具《警察人員人事條例》第35條條文修正草案等12案"},{"start":3502.972,"end":3519.427,"text":"法案審查會前於4月17日審查完略審查情形第35條及增訂副表3保留送院會處理其餘均有審查結果通過並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商現在請與會代表說明並請出席委員討論那請問與會的代表有無要進行說明好次長"},{"start":3528.961,"end":3556.021,"text":"謝謝召委除了剛剛跟黃委員提的問題的報告之外就是剛剛內政部馬次長有跟我討論一個疑慮的部分就是我們看到我們整理那張表限職的待遇警政事階是八萬一千四百二十塊然後如果修法以後我們用警政事階任職三十五年"},{"start":3558.107,"end":3567.373,"text":"最高可以領到七萬九千多所以這兩個的差距會拉近到接近只差一兩千塊只差一兩千塊這種狀況那限職人員會不會造成"},{"start":3573.738,"end":3588.61,"text":"退離,因為做跟沒做其實是很接近的,這個可能會像剛剛這個黃委員提到那個警力的人力可能也是另外一個難題,這個做一個補充說明,謝謝好,謝謝,那還有其他機關代表要說明嗎?好,次長"},{"start":3602.126,"end":3625.609,"text":"朝委還有黃委員那內政部的部分針對我們這次的修正提出內政部的一個建議第一個就是說剛剛我們全序部的張次長也提到如果今天按照目前的這個版本做所得地價率的調整的話那我們的限職的警消人員勢必會面臨大量流失的狀況"},{"start":3626.77,"end":3647.033,"text":"那在歷次的委員會包括院會有非常多的委員都擔心我們現在的消防同仁是不足的尤其是上一次我們在新竹的勤工會大火之後有非常多的委員一直關心我們消防人力的補足的部分那我們現在也很努力的包括透過考試"},{"start":3647.955,"end":3661.197,"text":"跟這個訓練的加速來讓我們各地方政府的一個消防同仁的數量能夠得到一個滿足那麼滿足我們地方政府對於消防以及防災的需求"},{"start":3662.915,"end":3687.018,"text":"那第二個就是說如果按照這個版本通過的話勢必我們在人員的流失的速度會比我們在新訓人員的速度來得快那這部分的衝擊我們目前還沒有數據但是顯而易見的從權敘部所提供的數據可以看得出來這個衝擊是非常明確存在的"},{"start":3687.638,"end":3708.952,"text":"所以如果沒有一個數據來能夠把這個衝擊說明清楚的話那做這樣的一個修法可能會造成我們立即的社會安全包括犯罪預防、治安防治跟我們災害防救上面的一個危機所以這部分還是請委員來多做考量那第二點就是說"},{"start":3710.433,"end":3736.387,"text":"我們在目前的法規的修正部分部分委員的版本將法規的內容延伸到移民跟空勤那在這個兩個單位的同仁他目前是以檢建委的一個方式為主那如果修正為警察官的適用的話這會有法律上的漢格這部分也麻煩召委跟委員們來考量那麼再者我們在消防機關"},{"start":3738.083,"end":3755.645,"text":"他本身是雙軌制他有警察人員任用也有警建委的任用那同一個機關同樣的職務那在不同的這個法條的規範下如果我們按照這樣的方式修訂會造成退休人員他的所得替代率的差距過大"},{"start":3757.266,"end":3778.607,"text":"這個也是我們在橫平性上面也必須要去考慮的所以中整以上的意見也懇請我們召委跟委員對於這樣一個修正案能夠再審慎尤其是我們剛剛提到的人員流失的部分所以電政部這邊除了武力華委員的版本我們競表同意之外"},{"start":3779.869,"end":3790.105,"text":"其他委員的版本我們還是建議委員多做考慮希望能夠考量社會的衝擊以及我們目前一個人員培訓的不易以上謝謝召委"},{"start":3796.388,"end":3814.635,"text":"因為現在沒有其他委員在那我就兩位次長是這樣第一位我們先請那個全市府次長因為剛剛黃委員有提出說要麻煩你們補一些資料那這個部分再麻煩全市府這邊要他有說時間內嗎?多久內嗎?"},{"start":3817.074,"end":3834.824,"text":"趙委員報告我剛剛有跟委員確認就是我們回去他容許我們回去跟我的同仁討論以後然後再跟他回報時間那他剛剛有沒有跟你說多久內他就是讓我回去他知道我們同仁很辛苦所以他是讓我回去跟我們的同仁討論那個時間再跟他回報"},{"start":3835.97,"end":3857.667,"text":"那這部分再麻煩那個次長 全副次長是 接著稍微我們回去處理好 那剛剛那個因為兩位次長剛剛有發表一些高見那當然我們也不是說完全不認同兩位次長的看法但是因為現在沒有其他人在我也沒有辦法其他人在代理主席那我就直接說明就是我自己提出我幾個淺見"},{"start":3859.648,"end":3878.707,"text":"而第一個就是說雖然說本縫的部分這所責替代率拉近的話看起來似乎是現職人員跟退休人員他們的這個薪資會差不多但是事實上因為我們都是公務員出身的事實上現職人員他有其他的"},{"start":3879.488,"end":3897.746,"text":"其他的一些家籍可以領取其實實際上還是有蠻大一段的差距這我先跟兩位次長說明一下尤其是警察他有一些超刑津貼啦一些一些有的沒有的那個家籍那我也沒有去細算其實這個金額加起來"},{"start":3898.487,"end":3920.299,"text":"限職人員即便他在本縫上面差不多,但是他實際領取的薪資是高於退休的。」這先跟兩位說明一下那第二個就是說當黃國昌委員有提到結構的部分的問題那為什麼這一次我們先從這個錦霄、海巡或是"},{"start":3921.64,"end":3939.4,"text":"將來可能是不是空情要列入為什麼我們會提這個因為這幾個工作性質跟一般的公務員、委員比較不太一樣的是他們需要比較多體力或是他們有一些危險性所以我們特別把它拉出來"},{"start":3941.484,"end":3963.963,"text":"所以你們剛剛說啦,說現階段就已經人員不足了,如果我們今天再把它改制成它的所得替代率幾乎到跟現值差不了太多的話,會造成人員的大量流失對這個理由,這個確實也是一個道理,但是會不會回過頭來我們去思考"},{"start":3965.188,"end":3979.673,"text":"就我上次在質詢的時候我有提到一個點就是我剛出來當檢察官的時候派出所的警察都很年輕二十幾年前都很年輕但我們現在去看派出所的警察其實都上了年紀了那這樣子的"},{"start":3980.433,"end":3999.804,"text":"人力的結構有沒有辦法去因應這樣的工作其實是我擔心的因為我認識的基層警察我在跟他們請教的時候他們都跟我說一樣的話就是現在的這個所得替代率變成他不敢退休那不敢退休又因為總員額的問題年輕人"},{"start":4002.566,"end":4013.178,"text":"根本沒有辦法進來我們這個就沒辦法進來當公務員那我們這幾份工作又是正好需求年輕的人力進來的工作"},{"start":4014.973,"end":4042.079,"text":"所以這個會變成是一個問題點那當然我也是肯定剛剛馬次長說的那個人員的這個問題那第二個就是說會不會是因為我們把退休制度改成今天這個樣子導致年輕人根本不想進來所以我們每年招的人數可能都不足我現在回過頭去跟兩位次長報告一件事如果我當年"},{"start":4043.564,"end":4063.449,"text":"我當年告訴我說我的退休制度是會變成今天這個樣子那我也不敢來當公務員啦因為我們當年嘛我再選擇我要去當律師去賺錢還是要到公務員去做一份穩定的工作然後退休金讓我穩定的退休這是兩個抉擇但是但是"},{"start":4066.65,"end":4089.998,"text":"如果說我今天知道我退休後的這個退休金領的是金額是這樣我甚至我連考慮都不會考慮去當檢察官所以所以也是要請兩位次長這個是兩位從來沒有去談論到的論點所以剛兩位提的論點我也不是不支持那兩位論點是很金幣但是是不是我們從另外一個角度去思考的"},{"start":4091.075,"end":4115.432,"text":"也是要考量進去因為畢竟這幾個工作項目是比較特殊的它跟一般我們做辦公桌的工作性質還是不同那我們真的需要年輕的人來從事警消還有其他海巡、空巡這一方面的工作我們還是需要很多年輕人來那會不會是我們的制度反而造成了"},{"start":4116.797,"end":4135.791,"text":"這個年輕人不敢進來雖然總數看起來好像沒有變而且我們沒有讓一群人去領退休金但是是不是會讓反而是造成國家的另外一個社會成本的負擔就剛剛黃國昌委員所說的所以這是我的淺見再麻煩兩位次長也能夠思考一下謝謝兩位好 那個"},{"start":4142.148,"end":4167.492,"text":"今天就第二案的協商因為一樣是黨團代表沒有出席討論所以無法達成共識後續我們會依據立法院職權行使法第十二章的相關規定我們會引請院長召開黨團協商會議進行協商謝謝各位今天會議到此散會"}]}},{"id":"16094","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16094","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0c95e053c453ffb765d2e70a2fa94eea928aaa308df9ea373385ae65fe3af22515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-11T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商有關「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」、「洗錢防制法修正草案」、「科技偵察及保障法草案」及「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」等案（民進黨黨團提議）二、研商有關「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」等案（國民黨黨團提議）三、研商有關「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第五條、第七條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案（國民黨黨團提議）四、研商有關「新住民基本法草案(新住民權益保障法草案)」、「四零三震災重建條例草案」、「本院國民黨黨團，建請院會作成決議『農業部應調整公糧收購價格，由每公斤26元調整至每公斤34元，提高農民基本利潤，請公決案』」等案（國民黨黨團提議））","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-11","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:00:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T21:07:00+08:00","duration":40020,"影片長度":"11:07:00","委員發言時間":"10:00:00 - 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他們權益上面的問題所以這次徐委員他所提出來以審查會的版本為基準的再修正動議那好像也去除了上次在黨團協商的時候大家所擔心會發生的問題"},{"start":2496.562,"end":2501.308,"text":"謝謝,我們請NCC黃主任秘書請發表報告,欸對不起,沈博洋文請發言"},{"start":2504.431,"end":2527.808,"text":"好那這個因為上次釐清了他是對於未來的一個限制就不能夠再繼續這個那這次改成一定時間那因為這個平普的取得他還是有時間就跟這個電視台的那個執照一樣所以就會變成說假設他今天過了一段時間他原來的已經到期了然後未來他又有一定時間不能做那其實這個營業自由的侵害還是很大"},{"start":2528.608,"end":2551.493,"text":"其實營業自我欺犯很大,按照法條來講不一定是一個最大的問題,我覺得它最主要是搭配台灣的現狀,就是說因為畢竟台灣的電信業者就是那幾家,那到最後併購啦,或者說就是讓,因為它資本本來就非常集中,所以我覺得就是說還是可能要考慮一下,它有可能會有一個,因為畢竟本來的法環跳到這一個,它中間的落差其實非常的大,那它會造成的市場的動盪會大一點,我覺得還是可以考慮一下。"},{"start":2552.78,"end":2573.53,"text":"好,謝謝沈博亮委員發言。請NCC黃主任秘書,請補充一下。是,上一次這個,上次我們也確實是,因為李先生是針對未來,就,大概就不會有直接侵害人民財產權的問題。但是剛才沈委員也特別有提到,因為整個電信事業啊,我們台灣電信事業就,能夠有這麼樣密,密,資本密集的電信事業就只有三家而已。"},{"start":2574.51,"end":2590.823,"text":"實際上是整個的未來的台灣的發展整個AI的發展整個電信服務的發展其實還在繼續當中如果說假設我們用這樣的一個手段的話這麼嚴格的手段這麼嚴厲的手段就是說因為某一些打詐上面的因素而造成它一定要"},{"start":2592.364,"end":2592.484,"text":"二、研"},{"start":2608.545,"end":2612.106,"text":"國民黨團最新的再修正版本您看到了嗎?對未來的競標限制它一段一定期間的參與"},{"start":2640.329,"end":2661.243,"text":"黃國昌總召請再發言我只是想要請教一下就是說因為看你們現行的那個電線管理法在針對不同的違反你們NCC所制定的使用規範上面除了發放的法律效果以外"},{"start":2662.438,"end":2687.414,"text":"你們也有廢止它使用的合配這樣的處置手段那也就是說即使在電信管理法的脈絡裡你採取的行政法的手段是雙軌的一個是罰錢嘛那另外一個是廢止它的合配那你廢止它的合配包括了在不同的脈絡裡面"},{"start":2689.29,"end":2716.506,"text":"也有廢止他網路設置的許可也有廢止他檢驗合格的證明等等等等也就是說你在電信管理法裡面竟然有這種雙軌處罰的模式那針對電信業者我們希望他能夠做好在打詐上面實際應該要有的管制座位那他沒有做好他沒有做好當然第一步是先罰錢"},{"start":2718.058,"end":2732.452,"text":"那到第二步的時候才會有向未來禁止的問題那未來禁止的問題我以法條上面的法律效果來講是比你直接去廢止它現在的核准"},{"start":2734.525,"end":2762.573,"text":"直接去廢止現在你早就配給他的東西直接廢止的法律效果反而是更強烈的所以我剛剛聽你的說明我就有一點聽不太懂因為我本來想要確認一下說電信事業只有三家如何如何很重要這個我們大家都了解但問題是說當你自己在電信管理法裡面你所採取的有關於行政管制的強制處罰作為就不是只有"},{"start":2763.533,"end":2787.323,"text":"法環是除了法環以外你連廢紙目前已經既有的核准都已經在你的規範之列了那這個時候你可能要提出一個更具有說服力的理由為什麼在電線管理法裡面你們針對你們NCCC所頒布的一些管制使用的規則如果有違反"},{"start":2788.163,"end":2811.841,"text":"可以用到直接廢紙寄存的那在打詐這邊那你如果沒有去符合我們要求電信業者應該要做到的事情然後把它做為第二軌必要的時候的管制手段我覺得這部分可能你你可能要再更清楚的論述一下看可不可以說服一下那個提案的委員"},{"start":2814.208,"end":2829.879,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召的再度發言,接下來請NCC黃主任秘書請補充。是,我以黃委員剛才所出席的這個案例來說,因為最近的一個案例事實上就是,如果假設你不配合那個通訊傳播主管機關的要求而設置"},{"start":2830.759,"end":2851.527,"text":"通訊監聽設備的話．那這時候其他所涉及的其實上是．本身是一個職業法令的違反．直接拿電信設備去做違法的使用．那通常是在這種情況之下．或者是說．那他沒有按照他自己所定的移運計畫．來實行的時候．你既然你的移運計畫是說我要做什麼服務．結果你又完全做另外一種服務的時候．"},{"start":2852.168,"end":2866.244,"text":"這時候我們才會廢止它的那個網路的這個設置的這個許可通常是到這麼樣嚴重的情況我們才會處理那我們回過頭來看我們現在目前所列的這些法條因為事實上是它大多數是一個是一個沒有辦法"},{"start":2866.904,"end":2888.511,"text":"二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四"},{"start":2890.171,"end":2902.766,"text":"前提還是一個手段目的之間的這個衡量的問題了以目前我現在所看的這個個款上面來看的話我覺得似乎沒有用到這麼嚴重的手段說以後你都不要來參與競標了的這種必要性"},{"start":2906.138,"end":2921.726,"text":"二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四"},{"start":2929.29,"end":2946.608,"text":"我總覺得說在我們在立法品質上其實還是不能讓人家覺得說我的手段的目的之間會像他的這麼大那建議還是救他的反正我的目的只是要強迫你要履行你的這些配合的義務嘛所以把他的這個法權加高也就夠了"},{"start":2948.568,"end":2965.701,"text":"謝謝黃竹密的補充報告柯總長因為時間到了我再講一下好嗎?好長話短說,謝謝剛才竹密講很清楚因為只用這個來做違法的使用犯罪工具當然要擺位置我們知道現在電信國際是有一類二類二類當然是網路業者"},{"start":2968.183,"end":2993.888,"text":"那一列就是當然包括顧王等等現在這三家業者就是一列基本上當然過去是這樣分類但最主要是講說我們業者用來做犯罪工具的時候當然賣廢照那你想這三家這樣大的電信公司有可能拿這個來做犯罪工具嗎?不可能嘛"},{"start":2995.389,"end":3022.907,"text":"我們現在要求不外乎說他對客戶要做一個KYC要把客戶放卡的時候要了解他到底那個手機的時候有沒有別人在使用等等所以這個是一個管制規則管制的問題並不是他拿來做營運謀利的問題所以這個要分清楚假如我們這樣的話直接用這樣強制的手段其實坦白講我們現在所要求的包括黑名卡等等我們當然"},{"start":3023.968,"end":3039.679,"text":"我們都知道現在沒有實名制嘛,將來要走上實名制才是我們的正辦啦,比如說令管理法裡面過去修掉了嘛,所以應該走上實名制,這個是要整個法規面來看待,那你現在就是說我們很多"},{"start":3040.96,"end":3054.912,"text":"電視管理規則還是要follow CSMA﹖就是國際的一個規則﹖國際所訂出來的規則﹖這是兩百多個國家參加﹖八百個電視公司參加的﹖但是我們在這裡做一些管制的規則﹖假如脫離那個部分的話﹖實際上講坦白﹖"},{"start":3059.956,"end":3081.774,"text":"對電信公司的困難。我們不能把政府打詐的責任全部推給這個電信公司嘛。打詐是一個團隊要一起來打。我說我們今天搞答案司法幹什麼呢?這四個法項也是所有工具都給了。我們希望說詐騙體能夠降低。法則也降低,洗錢防制怎麼都來了嘛。"},{"start":3082.725,"end":3091.043,"text":"我們現在回到一個邏輯就是說,好像不行的話就把定義公司拿來開刀,這是本末導致的。"},{"start":3092.608,"end":3119.431,"text":"我剛才說過,國際公務委員會就是公務員去處理,不可以給國防崩壞嘛所以我們覺得這個,這有兩個危機啊第一個,這個電影公司之間比起惡性競爭我找很多人在亂搞,不…不…QRC給亂搞那這個惡性競爭亂把命還家幹掉,這還得了臺灣未來是AI的世界,我們網路這個這麼重要,這個已經整個國家都亂掉了"},{"start":3120.552,"end":3147.122,"text":"第二個中國藝術,這兩個藝術我絕對考慮,中國也派人來擾亂到最後我們事務法參加都關起來,我們回到十幾十代就好了所以我們立法要講清楚立法目的是怎麼樣?不是用最直接的,你是管理,然後你用管理推到最極致我再講用電信管理法上面對於"},{"start":3151.643,"end":3173.93,"text":"對於這個價格不當維持,那樣市場圖案的地位就是價格不當維持,它只是幾百萬的罰則那公民教育法上面有結合行為有多少錢的罰則還沒有一個動到就是說以這樣,因為館裡面的,有是不是可以把這個比這個價格不當維持還嚴重,結合行為還嚴重的,不要把它直接"},{"start":3175.939,"end":3187.744,"text":"讓他不能來標或是寫法撤照這個我想這個一定要好好思考我想講說兩個最可能想像的我們這邊可以看到二星金的結果第二中國運輸好謝謝柯總召補充"},{"start":3191.049,"end":3218.252,"text":"報告各位黨團幹部很簡單第一個我想打詐現在其實已經是國家安全問題所以剛剛祖密講說這個比例性跟價值它是有一個判斷就是也很難說哪一個價值高那第二事實上前一天我們在講的時候我覺得柯總統講得很好如果是直接向過去廢止的話我覺得衝擊太大"},{"start":3218.752,"end":3245.362,"text":"所以今天其實法律上我們基本上已經調整很明確是向未來的所謂的禁止在一定期間內參加評普的投標那我覺得事實上已經是有一個雙方已經往這個差異性往中間接近一點那第三是什麼事實上這個條文的罰款的啟動這個處罰的啟動基本上它是有前提那不是說今天馬上可以啟動就是有前項各款情形情節重大你罰了錢限期改善"},{"start":3245.862,"end":3268.988,"text":"他還不改善．那才給行政機關一個得的一個啟動的考量就是說其他的威嚇性當然因為剛剛柯總長講說因為這個東西這個知識體大啦齁如果不讓他這個投標知識體大可是正因為這個知識體大其實他對主管全是掌握在那個電信主管機關嘛所以某種程度也會更加的附加說基本上"},{"start":3269.648,"end":3289.464,"text":"這些電信事業他們在配合國家的打詐政策上可能會有更高的一個所謂的動力跟警惕心因為最有把關的還是這個主管機關所以基本上主管機關如果剛剛認知到不管是祖密講的情形或是剛剛我們柯總長講的情形的話其實主管機關就不用祭出這麼重的所謂的禁止這個參加評普投標"},{"start":3290.945,"end":3312.138,"text":"所以我認為說其實還是可以放進去那多一個主管機關的一個材料而且它也不是漫無限制它前面必須有一個前提條件以上謝謝羅志強委員發言我還是對這個事情要保留我們現在先休息這二十四條五款內容在講什麼這是在管理什麼東西現在跟我們黨黨幹部會報告一下"},{"start":3316.44,"end":3334.51,"text":"我們現在休息休息期間拜託各黨團幹部跟NCC的主管我們一起繼續來協商24條跟25條休息之後我們先接待一下外賓重要的外賓我們11點20分繼續開始那非常感謝大家特別謝謝我們所有列席的各位閣員謝謝"},{"start":4686.172,"end":4703.039,"text":"好,謝謝各位黨團幹部、各位內閣的各位閣員現在他們正在二十四條、二十五條正在擬定條文然後在修正的提案的徐議政委員現在正在質詢,他等一下會過來我們就先把保留起來,回過頭來我們再來探討,我們現在進入下一案來"},{"start":4731.345,"end":4750.111,"text":"呃,NCC主秘,因為不好意思,萬一回頭來的話,可能還會要麻煩到您,不好意思,也跟部長特別...啊,部長...好的...好...好...那..."},{"start":4785.16,"end":4790.73,"text":"黃主席你們可以先休息一下,不好意思,對不起他不會離開,他不會離開"},{"start":5398.058,"end":5400.06,"text":"那個剛剛有拿一個修正動議那針對第二十四條"},{"start":5412.301,"end":5426.803,"text":"跟二十五條最後的那個法律效果限制其在一定期間內用戶號碼數量之合配這個我們同意這同意那只是前面在針對"},{"start":5429.093,"end":5456.723,"text":"第二款部分,它那個主觀要件上面跟其他的各款就明顯地做了差別的處理然後要求主觀的要件上面只要求明知,就直接拉到明知而不是知悉就可以了那因為你到明知的時候就要有確定故意它在概念上面是要有確定故意"},{"start":5460.141,"end":5484.03,"text":"一般我們在主管要件上面界定之期只要到未必故意就可以了那你如果說要要求主管機關要進行裁罰的時候你要把他拉到主管機關他裁罰他必須要盡得舉證責任要證明到這個電信業者明知這樣子的一個程度"},{"start":5485.03,"end":5506.92,"text":"那這樣子區別對待（他實質上面的理由（跟正當性以及主管機關（如果加上這個要件的話（在未來他們的管理上面（會不會出現一些困難（是不是可以請NCC表示一下意見啊 這樣子NCC是同意的嗎好 陳柏陽委員請發言"},{"start":5508.79,"end":5525.362,"text":"這一個地方我覺得比較麻煩的地方就是說因為第十六條是屬於這種移轉這個它的門號比如說給家人等等之類的那通常它雖然會有告知的一個義務但是其實我覺得以業者來講他主動去查核這件事情他的量能應該是不太可能做得到"},{"start":5526.302,"end":5547.011,"text":"現在問題就在說如果說我們要限定它是要故意的情形那我們到底要像明知就是直接故意然後還是說它是知悉然後它是故意的情形然後都可以納入我覺得這一個是都有可能那就要看主管機關覺得哪一種情形是比較覺得合乎現在執法的一個狀況"},{"start":5553.035,"end":5563.423,"text":"主席、各位委員,剛才那個原來的條文裡面是包含過失跟故意跟過失的那確實是可能業者的那個所謂擔負的責任狀態會比較"},{"start":5566.112,"end":5594.454,"text":"是,我是說原來的條文那現在的話就是動議裡面把它改成明智的話,因為明智只建議直接過意那如果主管局官證明直接過意,我想在舉證責任上面給主管局官的這個負擔也太大所以基本上我是同意那個荒謬議員在說的,把它改成窒息那未來的話,未來我只要證明說我的一些措施他窒息的話,那他就要擔不起責任那我想也可以把未必故意也包含進去"},{"start":5599.63,"end":5624.389,"text":"黃昇偉是要發言還是沒有啊?沒有啦,你如果說啦就是因為主管機關也表示意見了嘛我現在很擔心的是齁你在主管要件上一口氣把他拉到民資直接故意那你會讓這個條文實際上面空洞化因為你要主管機關怎麼去證明到直接故意這樣子的一個程度"},{"start":5625.53,"end":5642.321,"text":"所以我是同意剛剛主管機關他所建議的就是主管要件上面不要拉到名字只要知悉有一般的故意包括直接故意跟未必故意都可以謝謝黃國昌委員補充發言接著請莊瑞雄委員請發言"},{"start":5645.044,"end":5664.874,"text":"這個我有點意見是不是討論一下這個方位有沒有會不會把概念把刑法的概念移到行政法的概念裡面來了我們整個行政法的第七條的規定違反行政法上的義務的行為本來就是沒有去講故意或者說是過失這個是我怕我們這邊討論的時候有時候"},{"start":5666.836,"end":5693.692,"text":"有時候一下子要談憲法有時候要談到我們整個科徵刑法我們現在在討論的是行政法的問題那我倒反而會覺得說我就一併來講啦 院長你像比如我們剛剛提到那個這個二十四條跟二十五條那個部分我特別有一個感想就是說我在我們在審這個條文我也特別提出來我們其實就是去仿照仿照整個日本那個"},{"start":5694.733,"end":5695.454,"text":"那把這一些人他該有的成本"},{"start":5721.442,"end":5744.227,"text":"那手機非法去使用的人的成本你也轉嫁給電信機關這個也不太合理那你偵查機關你倒就是偵查不利那把這個成本也就丟給電信業者我倒認為也都不合理所以我的結論是說像這樣子在我們整個電信業者跟申請業者之間你本來就要明確的去規範"},{"start":5745.68,"end":5765.787,"text":"你應該要去告訴他就不能把這些不利益全部都轉嫁到電信業者身上尤其你去把它看它其實在我們把它在最後一項要求通知頻率主管機關禁止合佩頻率這樣的一個規定這個當然我們等一下會協商可能大家都有一個共識"},{"start":5767.865,"end":5781.859,"text":"所以我的意思要指出來就是說前面這些重的東西啊其實處罰都沒有那麼嚴重反而最重的我們處罰的沒有那麼重那比較輕的部分是別人的不利益的科與電信機關這個好奇怪請各個黨團大家再深思熟慮一下謝謝"},{"start":5790.229,"end":5804.134,"text":"現在有幾個名詞知悉、明知、還有故意我想大家都很清楚假如說明知的話就沒有今天故意還有過失"},{"start":5805.768,"end":5825.86,"text":"在我們所有的立法律裡面我去找一找海關七十條,我們很多,法務等一下可以回答看看海關七十條例很多都寫明資、環境用藥、市場擁有立法律、社會自治法、社會自治維護法等等,我們很多包括氣候變遷"},{"start":5827.455,"end":5838.882,"text":"都有寫上名字（明確、榮耀、管理法等等都有（所以在地法律商案過去我們都碰過（今後無法表示意見好不好?"},{"start":5844.538,"end":5872.014,"text":"我們行政法法是這樣按照行政法法的規定它是處罰故意跟過失如果法條上沒有寫它是故意過失的話你違反它的義務的話既處罰故意也處罰過失但是立法例上你可以排除直接故意你只可以現已直接故意排除間接故意也可以排除過失這幾個選項都可以這是立法上的選擇如果說我們立法法條上有規定明知的立法例也非常的多行政法上但是這個涉及到"},{"start":5872.734,"end":5895.687,"text":"我們的執法機關、我們的行政機關他的舉證責任的問題當你限於明日的時候他的裁罰範圍就變小他的舉證責任就加強那如果再降一個我限於故意就包括直接故意、包括間接故意、包括未必故意都可以不包括過失如果不寫的話就包括故意跟過失都要裁罰如果不寫的話故意過失都要裁罰"},{"start":5897.5,"end":5917.806,"text":"好,謝謝法務部的說明,再請沈博洋委員請發言因為他這個是違反第十六條,那因為第十六條他是用戶他沒有去,就是說他轉了這個號碼,那他沒有依前項規定去重新辦理核對登錄者,所以用戶自己有一個責任啦,然後用戶沒有去做了以後呢,電信事業應該要去停止"},{"start":5918.306,"end":5941.267,"text":"所以照理說至於這個電信事業它已經因為這個對打仗來講這已經是往前一層又再一層的事情了所以如果說客語電信業者說連未必故意都包含在裡面的話當然責任我覺得還是會有點重啦當然它規則上可以設計它可以規避啦但是我總覺得這一個要不要直接把就是把未必故意包含在裡面我覺得是可以討論看看我是覺得明智是不錯的"},{"start":5942.648,"end":5944.891,"text":"A77的主密老是這樣轉來轉去,他要把不利於全部規則又延遲,對他來講最簡單。你就是這種心態。"},{"start":5955.373,"end":5983.53,"text":"我們整個打詐是整個國家、團內、中小法一起在弄嘛!他要減輕他的負擔嘛!所以要不然你遇到整個官員的業者嘛!你就...剛才...剛才講說沒有問題,現在又說...欸...你還自欺!我們...所以...NCC...你是不是在做事?我不是在做事!他本來在換...換號碼的時候他們就要問你這個手機是不是...你有管理規則是不是你自己在用?因為這個東西...他要...他只要沒有做這個動作的話...他們...看起來你們都有查核嘛!"},{"start":5986.012,"end":6009.264,"text":"你講北京所有責任,我們若有事都理他們就好,這個運氣心態可以,我這樣講白了,你們兩邊人在做來做去嘛,我不清楚你在想什麼,剛才在這裡說可以沒問題,現在等下一問,這樣比較方便,什麼叫知識?明知嘛,當然是要明知嘛"},{"start":6011.996,"end":6031.084,"text":"你本來他換手機號碼的時候,他就會問嘛,你們有那些管理規則,那手機要幾百萬,規則萬機啊。所以那些人有辦法抓說,韓院長你的手機五支另外一支是你注意在用,這不行啦。那你們也有辦法做到嗎?很難的嘛。"},{"start":6031.749,"end":6032.329,"text":"黃主委深呼吸勇敢"},{"start":6055.333,"end":6056.715,"text":"中常會其實每個月我們的三個局處大概兩百多個人"},{"start":6071.773,"end":6087.257,"text":"每一個月我們大概有十幾批人固定在查核所有的電信通路我們最近內部其實也有在考慮是不是要把我們這些查核的這些結果也對外公佈會讓業者有所緊張因為我們確實也發現某些特定地區它的冒名頂替的量確實是有一些異常"},{"start":6095.339,"end":6117.657,"text":"所以我們最近也在考量這些事情做必要的資訊公開這是一件事情很容易報告就是通常會其實在這麼有限人力底下負責通訊傳播業務其實是非常非常的辛苦所以我要先跟總召說要跟我們總召報告一下就是說我們同仁其實真的很辛苦那第二件事情是當時因為原來在整個的法治上面"},{"start":6118.317,"end":6139.993,"text":"因為通常對在行政法上面在行政機關通常我們只要要求說業者你只要做到什麼動作那我就會認為也是OK的但是你只要沒有做到什麼動作我就認為你要負起責任我們就如同法務部次長所說的通常我們在行政機關裡面不會在構成要件裡面去加上一個叫做它的主觀狀態"},{"start":6141.454,"end":6141.654,"text":"主觀構成要件"},{"start":6162.337,"end":6169.261,"text":"主管機關不能夠證明故意過失,主管機關就不能夠罰人家。第二、假設它的責任狀態是屬於過失的話,我們也會卓以有卓減的空間。同時,本來在構成條例就賦予主管機關,你可以在哪一個額度之內,"},{"start":6180.707,"end":6207.989,"text":"在一定範圍之內﹐給予適當的裁量﹐我們內部其實也定有裁量﹐有一個電信管理法違規的裁量表﹐我們大概都有在做﹐現在所涉及的就是說﹐這個案件裡面﹐確實﹐如果說假設它是刻意要去規避﹐刻意要去冒名頂替﹐我們的電信事業﹐似乎就如同總召所說的﹐似乎確實是有一些﹐比較加重業者的責任﹐"},{"start":6209.43,"end":6209.771,"text":"主管機關的顧慮就會"},{"start":6235.794,"end":6236.074,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":6263.83,"end":6280.168,"text":"這武大郎放風箏啊你光看風箏那個手在哪裡你到底答案是什麼我還是聽不太懂要改故意好了這個手在誰身上武大郎身上你到底結論是什麼請表達意見好沒有沒有你還沒我們讓NC主任秘書直接再表達一次沒關係所以我們再討論沒問題的"},{"start":6282.615,"end":6305.04,"text":"我是覺得應該在直接故意當然要負責了那那個未必故意的話我想已經既然贏到未必故意了我想在正面程度上主管就已經不會那麼吃力了只要我能夠知道他有窒息的話會比較好那這一件可能就要跟柯總統遭一點抱歉但是沒關係祖密你勇敢講出來沒問題我們正在討論沒問題的所以祖密還是希望說用窒息來接下來請華國昌委員發言沈某陽委員請準備來請"},{"start":6310.455,"end":6317.989,"text":"因為在這一次的打壓專法裡面他要處理一個很重要的問題就是說手機的號碼"},{"start":6320.239,"end":6341.982,"text":"我們一般人是正常的使用但現在在目前詐欺的形態裡面已經成為犯罪集團他們的犯罪工具這是為什麼兩年以前開始有很多檢察官開始提出呼籲你前面的那個犯罪工具行政機關要把它管制好包括帳戶"},{"start":6343.303,"end":6361.385,"text":"包括手機、包括個資這三個部分是現在新型態的詐欺犯罪裡面一定要用到的犯罪工具你前端犯罪工具沒有處理好你後端到檢警那一邊的時候就會產生我們今天現在的狀況"},{"start":6362.586,"end":6380.851,"text":"整個詐欺犯罪的案件量已經快要壓垮第一線監警他們幾乎一半以上的偵辦能量全部都放在這裡那在這樣的前提下針對這個部分因為第十六條事實上"},{"start":6383.206,"end":6411.28,"text":"因為涉及到用戶端的行為所以我同意要把過失的情況把它排除在外但你實際上面電信業者他們在對於他們自己有關於用戶相關的管制行為在這個詐欺專法以下已經苛於他一定的義務要他去做這件事情"},{"start":6412.472,"end":6436.042,"text":"但他知道而沒有做我覺得這個時候給他處罰是適當的你如果一下把主觀要件拉到民資事實上你某個程度上是把業者他們本來應該要盡的責任讓他轉嫁到相對於的資源比較有限的公部門"},{"start":6437.406,"end":6462.983,"text":"以NCC目前所有的人力他們的能量跟電信業者他們所有的資源的能量兩個之間來思考到底誰在一個比較好的位置去做這樣子的一個管控我覺得是電信業者啦那因此我是建議啦大家可不可以再思考一下不要一下子"},{"start":6463.763,"end":6485.721,"text":"把他拉到明智故意就是明智的直接故意這樣子的程度不要讓那個天秤一下子傾向電信業者這麼多所以在這個主觀要件上面不要把它定得那麼嚴讓我們的NCC在採取實際的管制作為的時候能夠真的發動這個工具"},{"start":6489.651,"end":6512.063,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員,請沈伯陽委員請發言我重整一下,整個二十五條他要罰到十萬到一百萬那他指的是違反十五、十六、十七、十八、二、三這幾個那為什麼十六條特別是因為十五條是在簽約的時候十七、十八、二、三都是發現對方有詐欺也就是十五、十七、十八、二、三都是這個"},{"start":6513.603,"end":6542.523,"text":"這個電信業者他在主動的時候他發現了什麼事情所以他要怎樣所以在這邊反而不會有疑慮但十六條我再回去一次就是十六條他的特色是用戶轉讓的時候他要去跟電信業者講那電信業者如果他用戶沒有講這件事情的話其實我說真的用戶其實要有一定的責任那現在是這一條的意思是說用戶沒有去做的時候那電信業者如果發現了那應該要去做一個限制跟停止那他如果沒做的話那就是這一個十萬到一百萬"},{"start":6543.303,"end":6558.271,"text":"所以這個對電信業者來講說真的會是一個量能上比較大的就畢竟因為誰在轉讓他不可能掌握的那麼清楚所以這也是為什麼我覺得主觀要先要定在這個這一款的原因但至於要不要明知真的大家可以討論這我倒是沒有那麼"},{"start":6559.471,"end":6559.571,"text":"那現在"},{"start":6588.635,"end":6604.223,"text":"改成故意好不好?就很明確故意可以好,那我們今天達成共識了,謝謝三個黨團我們改為故意,謝謝全部達成共識,我現在等一下要宣讀一下黃主任秘書,可以喘一口氣了趕快協商解讀給我,快快快"},{"start":6620.926,"end":6622.183,"text":"那以後要改實名字就好"},{"start":6655.143,"end":6668.144,"text":"好,各位黨團幹部、各位內閣的閣員那我現在來念一下我們協商結論請大家保持肅靜請保持肅靜重要的協商結論我們"},{"start":6671.175,"end":6690.95,"text":"我們今天協商的主題是並按審查行政院含情審議臺灣民眾黨黨團及陳廷飛等16委員分別凝聚《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案》二、何新淳等21位立委凝聚《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案》"},{"start":6691.73,"end":6715.662,"text":"我們現在協商結論一、協商通過小一、照行政院提案通過第八條、第十一條、第十二條、第十三條、第五十七條、小二、照協商條文通過第二十條、二十四條、二十五條、第四十四條、第四十九條如附件二、通過附帶決議三項"},{"start":6717.654,"end":6731.99,"text":"三、其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過其中第二項附帶決議不予處理四、委員提案及相關修正動議均列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":6733.763,"end":6760.168,"text":"五、補充立法說明如附件．六、各黨團同意王美惠委員、徐宇貞委員、羅廷維委員、蘇巧惠委員、蔡易瑜委員等．分別說您《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案》等五案．從委員會抽出近乎二讀與相關提案並案．在本次協商會議處理"},{"start":6761.608,"end":6764.929,"text":"這就是我們今天的協商結論我已經簽了 請各位黨團依序來我們簽名 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":6789.164,"end":6812.862,"text":"跟各位黨團報告現在簽字的時候也跟各位閣議員報告我們現在開始審理第二案協商主題嚴商洗錢防制法修正草案我們現在在現場參與協商的有我們來介紹一下貴賓其他的請可以我們法務部的黃長賜歡迎您司法院的黃副秘書長歡迎您經管會的"},{"start":6813.749,"end":6838.702,"text":"彭主委 歡迎您 還有一個協防隊數位發展部的黃部長歡迎您 內政部的張視察歡迎您警政署的刑事警察局 歡迎您移民署的魏視察 移民署的"},{"start":6841.772,"end":6850.519,"text":"財政部的謝祕書,歡迎您財政部官務署的郭副組長經濟部商業發展署的莊副組長,歡迎您衛福部的政風處的蔡副處長,歡迎您"},{"start":6872.311,"end":6874.973,"text":"中央銀行金融業務檢察處 謝副處長"},{"start":6907.156,"end":6912.26,"text":"現在要報告一下我們洗錢防制法修正草案"},{"start":6926.923,"end":6945.876,"text":"本案施法及法制委員會並按審查行政院提案及台灣民進黨黨團、郭國文等十六位委員提案等四案,審查情形,審查於一百一三年六月三日審查完略,審查結果第五條第二十四條保留,其餘均照審查結果通過,並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商。"},{"start":6950.049,"end":6960.8,"text":"令院會將林怡瑾等二十位委員及蔡易瑜等十六位委員提案近乎二讀與相關提案並按協商"},{"start":6962.233,"end":6985.263,"text":"目前協商的情形跟各位黨團報告一、民進黨團於六月二十八日召集協商由鍾嘉斌召集委員主持二、協商結果第五條協商內容通過第二十四條照行政院提案通過第十九條保留其餘均照審查會審查結果通過並新增附帶決議一項"},{"start":6987.441,"end":7006.872,"text":"協商結論並未完成簽署本日協商我們就先就保留條文進行討論如果各位委員對於審查會通過及先前協商有共識之條文有意見待保留條文處理完畢之後我們再接續處理請問各位黨團幹部有意見"},{"start":7008.422,"end":7015.245,"text":"現在要增加台灣民眾黨黨團再增加第五條修正動議也跟各位黨團報告幹部來報告一下保留條文一條第十九條我們先請提議保留的台灣民眾黨黨團表示意見"},{"start":7041.378,"end":7060.426,"text":"謝謝院長那個院長我先確認一下我們現在先處理第五還第十九第十九OK那個跟各位院長各位參與協商的委員還有行政部門的機關代表說明我們在委員會審查的時候其實說明過就是說針對"},{"start":7065.987,"end":7087.749,"text":"一億以上的重大洗錢行為我們事實上在這一次的修法當中只加了一個最低的刑度是一年以上本來全部的是七年以下沒有加最低的刑度那這一次改按照不同的金額"},{"start":7089.246,"end":7116.842,"text":"我們等於是在法條的結構上分成了兩級我們先講一億以下的一億以下的事實上就是六個月以上五年以下這個我們沒意見但是在一億以上的如果我們現在修正只是一上七下的話事實上對於這種重大洗錢的行為它的罰則是沒有辦法產生足夠"},{"start":7118.345,"end":7143.784,"text":"跟他的罪責相應的刑罰我為什麼這樣說我分成幾個層次的理由來說明第一個我國法院所有的刑度法官在量刑的時候都是從minimum開始加你如果是一年以上有期徒刑他大概就說一年往上一年一個月、一年兩個月、一年三個月你大概判決看得夠多"},{"start":7145.475,"end":7158.248,"text":"你會很清楚發現這樣子的一個pattern。那第二個,針對這一次的打詐專法當中,我們針對有關於詐欺所得的金額,我們事實上針對一億以上,"},{"start":7160.549,"end":7184.825,"text":"是有加重的我們一億以上我們臺灣民進黨黨團所提的再修正動議是五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑那也感謝其他各個黨團的支持在委員會審查的時候就已經通過了所以針對有關於我們在這一次打詐的這幾個法律當中針對詐欺的行為是直接拉"},{"start":7186.141,"end":7210.515,"text":"一以上的是五年以上十二年以下因此我們真覺得就是如果針對一以上的論其實際論其實際在這一次的洗房法裡面是根本沒有什麼刑度上面的更動的話我們覺得沒有辦法去遏制這種重大洗錢的行為第三個部分事實上"},{"start":7211.816,"end":7238.98,"text":"三年以上十年以下是我們建議的刑度因為我們心裡面知道法官在量刑的時候從來就不是從中間值開始的美國他們在量刑的時候是從中間值開始然後有一個他們的會發佈一個sentencing guideline就是量刑基準表它有各種不同的形狀往上往下但台灣幾乎都是從下從minimum開始再往上加"},{"start":7239.82,"end":7243.123,"text":"而這樣我們所規定的刑度會過重嗎?我跟各位報告,其實不會。"},{"start":7260.916,"end":7279.079,"text":"在美國聯邦法裡面違反美國聯邦洗錢罪違反美國聯邦法的洗錢罪最高刑度是二十年那當然大家會說怎麼可能會判到最高刑度所以我就跟大家報告中間值他們的中間值判出來是八十個月"},{"start":7280.168,"end":7294.084,"text":"八十個月將近是七年將近是七年那你說這一種一億以上的重大的洗錢行為真的會在搞這種事情的是誰?一定都是有組織的"},{"start":7295.946,"end":7310.835,"text":"因為你自己一個人要搞到這個金額也不是那麼容易的事情所以我們真的會建議說針對我們這一次在打詐專法裡面除了詐欺這一邊要加重處罰之外相應的"},{"start":7315.798,"end":7331.825,"text":"導致很多的犯罪他們的不法所得在處理的重大洗錢的行為的刑度應該要往上拉而不是只有維持現在的最高刑度多加一個一年以上遊戲圖形而已以上說明"},{"start":7333.14,"end":7360.001,"text":"謝謝提案的臺灣民進黨黃國昌總召的說明接下來請鍾嘉斌召委請說明好謝謝因為這個保留條文其實已經其實是沒有保留啦照行政院通過但是協商的時候要保留重新保留那我說明一下還是要請法務部清楚的說明因為剛剛黃總召所提的個點我們在協商的時候也討論很久那要回過頭來看這個"},{"start":7362.007,"end":7383.837,"text":"條文版你們原來條文是四條他說有第二條各款所列洗錢行為者處七年以下有期徒刑七下併科新台幣五百萬以下是罰金那現在呢這個七年不動但是呢加個一年以上併科新台幣一億你們現在加重的部分是七年以下的部分你們加個一年以上然後呢併科一億的罰金這裡面都有加重"},{"start":7384.577,"end":7399.731,"text":"然後你們說前項未遂犯罰資你們後面加的後段是說未達一億元的未達一億元的是六個月以上五年以下等於說你們的說明我看後來民眾黨的修正通也接受了書寫方式將舉證責任反過來"},{"start":7402.273,"end":7419.69,"text":"要對方證明他的這個金額未達一億元以上才能適用較低的刑期就六億元以上五年以下的但是這裡面有個第三項原條有個第三項你們前二項情形不得刻意超過其犯其特定犯罪所定最重本刑之刑其實你們在後來這個最後這一項"},{"start":7421.817,"end":7421.837,"text":"請說明"},{"start":7448.338,"end":7474.898,"text":"麻煩請法務部黃成長請說明主席各位委員大家好首先我們這次就一億以上的洗錢我們並不是沒有加重我們把它的樓地板從一年往上調所以最低它要從一年往上開始量刑最高當然還是七年而且它併加罰金的部分我們已經從原來五百萬提高到一億新台幣所以就這一個超過一億的洗錢的部分我們是有提高並不是沒有提高這第一點"},{"start":7475.839,"end":7503.293,"text":"第二點我們一直在強調就是說洗錢它要保障的法益到底是什麼洗錢它要保障法益要跟它原來的那個前置犯罪我們要分開來看我們現在洗錢有個特性前置犯罪有可能是很輕的罪只要六個月以上的罪或一些劣跡很輕的罪但是它後面犯的洗錢的金額是很大的這個時候前面的罪如果是很輕的罪甚至是處罰金的一些賭博的罪它洗錢的金額稱為億"},{"start":7504.494,"end":7523.244,"text":"他的洗錢的介紹意義,他洗錢必須要被處以三年以上但是那個主嫌反而是要處罰進行這個有沒有就是說我們所謂的法律上失衡的部分當然委員提的意見也非常好是洗錢可悟還是原來犯那個前置犯罪人可悟這當然各有見解但就法務的立場來講洗錢它畢竟"},{"start":7525.265,"end":7542.684,"text":"它是有一個附屬性的概念你犯了一個主罪你犯貪污你犯毒品之後你去洗錢所以洗錢它基本上概念上它是有附屬性的概念所以它的刑度不應該要重於原來的前置犯罪我們的基本概念是這樣那為什麼我們要把十四條原來的"},{"start":7544.105,"end":7571.758,"text":"第三項把他拿掉呢我們原來第三項甚至規定你洗錢犯的罪的判的刑不能重於原來的獨立犯罪不可以告一他但是因為最近我們整個國際洗錢的思維產生變化他認為洗錢他不是在不再是一個獨立的不再是個附屬的犯罪他把獨立他要保障的是那個金流本身而不是你前置犯罪你隱匿那個金流本身就可惡所以要這叫做洗錢的獨立性的概念所以我們為了"},{"start":7572.318,"end":7589.313,"text":"因應國際的潮流．所以我們把十四條第三項把它說你判洗錢罪不能重於原來的犯罪這個條文把它拿掉了但是基本上它的洗錢的本質上它還是有它的附屬性這一點性質上、定性上是不會有改變的"},{"start":7590.134,"end":7615.844,"text":"第三點,我們這次洗錢的這個條文我們跟原來已經產生一些過程要先做一些改變了我們用的文則是洗錢的財物超過一億換句話說不是用犯罪所得超過一億是洗錢的金額超過一億這句話什麼意思我犯了一個貪圖案罪他的犯罪所得也許只有一千萬但是我加入我合法的金流去洗之後他超過一億了"},{"start":7617.044,"end":7644.726,"text":"這個時候你還是要落入重罪喔他的犯罪所得只有一千萬但他加入他合法的金流的九千萬之後他洗錢的金額其實是一億的所以換句話說這樣子構成要再改變之後他很容易超過一億的很容易超過一億這第二點要跟各位委員報告第四點報告是實務上的一些看法為什麼呢洗錢最容易誰被處罰到都是那個主嫌的至親啦你太太你的配偶"},{"start":7645.607,"end":7657.724,"text":"這才會辦、我們書上都是辦這些人以後會變成一個很奇怪的現象他的老公犯了一個輕罪叫老婆去洗錢老公判的刑是輕的但老婆反而要處三到十年的罪"},{"start":7659.333,"end":7681.114,"text":"這就是我們比較顧慮的就是說這個權衡上是私衡所以我們就取其中所以希望把它樓地板提高你洗錢你最低從一年往上量刑來取它的中間法律的均衡以上補充謝謝謝謝黃次長的報告接下來我們請司法院事務的黃也是黃副副理事長今天是黃氏中經會都姓黃"},{"start":7686.228,"end":7711.059,"text":"主席、各位委員關於洗錢的行為提高這部分當然是刑事政策讓我們尊重大院跟主管機關這說明當然剛才主管也有提到說這跟前接的特定犯罪之間的刑度的形成性的關係當然也請大院能夠做斟酌當然如果說刑事政策對洗錢的意義已經不是在"},{"start":7711.539,"end":7715.39,"text":"在事後犯的這種刑刑而應該獨立的話,那麼我們也尊重。謝謝。好,再請黃國昌總召請發言。"},{"start":7722.881,"end":7750.918,"text":"我想剛剛法務部的代表第一點講得非常的清楚我們為什麼會把第三項刪掉過去第三項把洗錢當成是一個附屬的行為這個思潮在現在國際上面針對於洗錢的管制跟處罰這個想法被淘汰掉了這是為什麼在修法理由當中你們為什麼砍掉第三項講得很清楚"},{"start":7751.918,"end":7775.871,"text":"洗錢犯罪跟錢治犯罪是不同的犯罪行為（它的保護法意是建立在社會經濟秩序的維護．跟國家主權安定的確保．防止犯罪組織藉由將黑錢洗成乾淨的錢．如此使得避免犯罪組織再度獲得滋養．而危害社會秩序或金融秩序．"},{"start":7777.509,"end":7797.229,"text":"正是因為這個樣子﹐我們很清楚的去界定洗錢罪的保護法役﹐跟前置犯罪的保護法役是兩件事我覺得我們在討論事情的時候﹐這個前提先把它說清楚那第二個﹐你們說樓地板﹐本來是七年以下有起徒刑"},{"start":7798.51,"end":7820.458,"text":"針對一億以上的你們多加一個樓地板是一年以上有期徒刑我真的必須要老實講針對我國的重大洗錢犯罪我到目前為止看到的判決真的判得太輕了啦真的判得太輕了啦也正是因為這個樣子那些人才會囂張嘛才會囂張嘛"},{"start":7824.008,"end":7845.902,"text":"你針對一億以上的我就具體的問目前剛剛黃次長似乎是認為說因為那個定義的改變所以一億以上的很容易達成真的嗎你以按照你們目前所偵辦的犯罪它佔的比例有多重這個是我的第一個問題第二個等一下是不是可以請司法院"},{"start":7846.883,"end":7863.416,"text":"跟大家講一下目前在司法院的統計裡面我們去判洗錢罪的平均的刑度是多重也讓大家瞭解一下因為針對詐欺也好針對洗錢也好就判太輕這件事情"},{"start":7864.276,"end":7881.568,"text":"是我們在有關於推動整個打詐相關的法案抑制詐欺犯罪、洗錢犯罪的這件事情我們從基層聽到非常強烈這樣的聲音今天就詐欺的犯罪行為一以上的我們在打詐專法拉到五到十二"},{"start":7882.449,"end":7908.066,"text":"我覺得這個某個程度上可以回應社會上對這件事情的期待跟大家的憤怒與不滿但相對的就有關於洗錢的部分七年以下有期徒刑那你只多增加一個樓地板一億以上的一年以上七年以下我真的覺得啦我真的覺得這樣子的一個修正對於重大的洗錢犯罪沒有辦法讓他獲得應該有的刑罰"},{"start":7910.063,"end":7911.884,"text":"今天其實我在看這個條文我相信大家內心都會有糾結"},{"start":7932.978,"end":7957.447,"text":"主跟父之間這個就像我們今天早上司法法治委員會裡面我們那個脫逃罪我們要把它提升到三年那我舉的例子是我跟黃某信次長我們兩個來打一打架打完你告我你會覺得告了也沒意思啊檢察官去就搞不好一萬五千塊就給我繳保啦"},{"start":7958.717,"end":7985.514,"text":"那我就覺得五千塊交保沒什麼我就來賺錢就好了我來賺五千塊罰一罰或者是受傷的把他處罰掉這個法院傳票來我就覺得沒有時間啦哪有時間我們都和解掉啦私底下都講好啦那好啦可是呢法院來啦我也不去開庭啦我棄保啊我哪有棄保我主觀上也不是要棄保就形式上客觀上我看起來我就是棄保我也沒有檢討啊"},{"start":7987.213,"end":8015.828,"text":"我是台積電來我們這個地方在設廠我去工作努力賺錢後我變成要三年那如果我們兩個去和解掉了我甚至於法官在審判的時候直接把我不受理掉啦是我們這罪行我們都在拉高都在拉高我知道立法院我們大家委員的這些立法理由裡面講得很清楚對這一些這個犯罪啊或者脫逃啊大家都很痛恨沒錯"},{"start":8017.165,"end":8025.177,"text":"可是我今天早上除了問了法務部以外我特別問了司法院司法院的看法是很接地氣的"},{"start":8026.858,"end":8047.559,"text":"說這一些其實就也不曉得該怎麼辦就是立法院裡面自己去做決定所以我倒要想再看看就是說想再請教啦黃國昌委員剛提到說這個世界上這個洗錢這個失潮的觀念在改變這個我可以認同但問題是說全世界的立法院裡面我們有沒有再去跟他做一個比較有沒有像這麼重"},{"start":8050.455,"end":8074.404,"text":"真的啊,這個有時候關到最後啊有時候是老公去賭博或者是做一些比較輕的罪犯罪所得一大堆怎麼關到老婆關到親戚關到小孩這個社會上也到最後我會覺得也很奇怪啊所以是不是大家再考慮一下尤其是你像這樣子你刑法一提這個一拉高以後拉高以後你這個以後連緩刑的機會也都沒有欸"},{"start":8076.045,"end":8090.426,"text":"也都會沒有欸那是不是請這個司法院或者法務分再說明一下就是說全世界各國的立法力有拉到這麼高的那我們再來做一個比較看看這樣會不會在立法院這邊大家在審的時候"},{"start":8091.527,"end":8115.532,"text":"會覺得不要說這個洗錢的世界上的一些一個思維的一個改變只有我們立法院、立法委員改變我們可以接受那民眾也會覺得你怎麼改變我也都不知道啊我也都不知道啊以上我提這一些我都很怕失衡啦這個要加重的道理大家都知道這個其實都是要遏止這樣的一個犯罪可是就是重的"},{"start":8116.584,"end":8135.978,"text":"我們剛剛不是也協商過了嗎﹖像那個剛提到那個電信業者那個也是一樣啊﹖就重的反而你罰清﹖然後該科與這個偵察機關更強的義務﹖或者說手機持有著你的義務﹖你自己的那個門號都﹖或者說身份證借人家亂去申請﹖"},{"start":8137.699,"end":8143.203,"text":"然後偵察機關自己偵察不力（到最後是科技電信業者（我們剛剛也覺得這樣不太合理（才去做一個協商那以現在這樣子貿然去通過的話（會不會有失衡的問題我很想請行政部門再給我們提醒一下就是說是不是全世界各國的立法律到底是怎麼樣因為我從這陣子在看"},{"start":8158.394,"end":8179.322,"text":"你們這些很多的立法不管是去抄德國、學德國、學日本我後來都發現你們都給人家抄一半害我辦公室一直對、對、對、對到最後我會發現那奇怪的你都衝了一半所以我的意思就是說這個真的要再慎重一下因為我很怕輕重失衡到最後法律效果出來以後整個"},{"start":8180.854,"end":8206.561,"text":"整個社會還有環境宣告的部分也請說明一下謝謝中央選委發言接下來請柯建民總召請發言我想今天在討論這個法案我們過去也都知道不管專家、營養法超過一億以上的加州嘛變成一到七年嘛那有關於這個洗錢的問題當然剛才黃志成講很清楚"},{"start":8208.627,"end":8235.976,"text":"當然黃昌偉有講說《刑事犯罪》法律不同當然《刑事犯罪》這個有頭輕腳重的問題當然《刑事犯罪》的問題變成只有法律上的顛倒倒是我的看法就是說我們昨天在審查這個《詐欺危害防制法》有對於矚謀嘛 都是加重嘛我們就是矚謀加重嘛"},{"start":8238.664,"end":8266.606,"text":"洗錢有、詐欺有的是車手嘛﹖車手當然是有不同層次的嘛﹖車手和這個主謀都是不一樣的這個型度嘛﹖所以有關於就是三、四十四一例加重詐欺應該是主謀﹖一以上的都是主謀﹖我還認為就是說﹖我們在過去審查這個刑事防制法的時候﹖我們有一個洗錢法的單獨沒收嘛﹖"},{"start":8268.811,"end":8290.818,"text":"你洗錢可以單獨沒收,那是另外一個,獨立的單獨沒收,所以你把你的錢全部扣出來,扣下來,這只要洗錢當然把他所洗的錢不管你多少,你的這個財產可能是洗錢來的,也可能不是,但是全部可以扣到沒收,因為有可能都是全部扣到沒收嘛,這刑法已經改了嘛。"},{"start":8292.608,"end":8320.881,"text":"我還是大家要討論一下就是說有很多不同的樣態莊永恆講的沒有錯啦棄保潛牢也是有一樣的嘛他棄保潛牢很重但是他主席不見得說要怎麼辦所以這些都是有法院上面的一些衝突以及大家要好好思考我應該尊重法務部和這個司法院的意見和看法好不好事務長是怎麼樣"},{"start":8322.566,"end":8322.986,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":8339.571,"end":8363.617,"text":"剛剛有提到立法律的部分,但我目前沒有立法律的刑度該是多少。但這條會修其實是因為我們在APG的第三輪評鑑的時候有涉及到我們國家洗錢的嚇阻性,他認為不夠,所以我們來修這個法。他倒不是說我們法律的這個刑度不夠,嚇阻性是指良刑的結果,嚇阻性不夠。所以我們訂了一個最低的一個樓地版分卡,讓他的這個刑度稍微提高一點。"},{"start":8364.877,"end":8387.359,"text":"第二點就是有關於定到三到十年另外純粹法律適用上會產生一個問題就是說除非他是符合另外有構成刑法五十九條的檢刑事由要不然他是沒有辦法宣告緩刑的因為緩刑他的實際上宣告刑兩年以下才有緩刑的機會換句話說沒有法官定五十九條這個洗錢的被告他勢必就必須要入監服刑這是第二點"},{"start":8387.959,"end":8415.294,"text":"第三點,剛剛黃委員有提到這個一億元的計算的部分我們是這樣子想啦會來就是說你會洗錢的金額洗錢的金額達到一億基本上它是一個很大的集團所以它的合法的金流其實也蠻大的加入金我意思說很容易超過一億意思是什麼它合法的金流再加上非法的金流它本身合法金流就大再加上一個非法金流也許不是這麼大它就會超過一億了"},{"start":8415.814,"end":8431.791,"text":"所以這部分去操縱洗錢再超過一億去論罪的話,未來是容易成立的。相對於舊法的犯罪所得是容易成立的。那以上補充在這裡。黃國昌總統意思是在根據實務上這樣超過一億的,您的經驗法則裡面有多少大概?"},{"start":8432.847,"end":8435.729,"text":"黃國昌總長,您稍等一下,還有司法院,我的意思是他已經先答覆,等一下有問題再說,我們請司法院黃副院長請"},{"start":8458.243,"end":8470.736,"text":"主席、各位委員,比較法上面的例子,我們現在手上也沒有,那看主管機關那邊好像也沒有,那可能要事後再蒐集,那關於法院量刑的這些情況,"},{"start":8472.958,"end":8487.329,"text":"那我先跟各位報告因為在現行的法制上面因為洗錢案件常常都會跟其他這個犯罪會有那個進而的情形那一些比較嚴重的情形即可能已經構成其他的犯罪而被吸收掉了那單獨就洗錢、構成洗錢單獨犯罪這部分我們現在手上面目前有的統計資料裡面確實當然因為目前抓到很大部分都是車手這些比較單純的所以當然他們"},{"start":8500.899,"end":8521.811,"text":"大概絕大部分是在一年以下有期徒刑但是也有抓到比較嚴重的情形底下的話我們也有判到像去年的話大概判到三年到五年之間的有六件有六件判到三年到五年的那大概一年到兩年之間大概五十件"},{"start":8523.692,"end":8539.084,"text":"目前看到判過最重的大概在五年到七年之前也曾經判過事件這樣子這個目前我們的這個手邊的這些統計資料當然如果說為了要達到這個二指的這些行刑提高這些我們刑度的話我想我們司法院當然是尊重大院的這個職權"},{"start":8541.566,"end":8561.134,"text":"謝謝 謝謝 接下來黃國昌委員發言 傅坤祺總召請準備當然啦 那個兩個主管機關要再去找其他的立法律也可以啦那我剛剛其實在第一輪發言就跟大家報告過美國聯邦洗錢罪規定在第十八章一千九百五十六條"},{"start":8563.53,"end":8575.276,"text":"他的刑度最高二十年二十年那當然我們看不可以看最高刑度你要看平均看起來是怎麼樣子"},{"start":8576.713,"end":8599.664,"text":"也正是因為這個樣子他們聯邦在針對犯罪實際上面所做的統計出來的結果上因為講這個要負責任所以稍微等我一下下我把剛剛因為有一些紙本的東西我剛剛沒有把它印出來它的平均平均數是70到80個月70到80個月"},{"start":8603.426,"end":8616.054,"text":"當然他會按照聯邦量刑的基準還會再往上也會往下但我現在在講的是平均喔不是最高喔七十到八十個月那大家除以十二看看看起來是幾年他沒有定最低"},{"start":8622.459,"end":8644.321,"text":"對啦,但是喔,那個我要跟莊委員報告的事情是說,你如果真的要看最低的話,他們有一個量刑手冊,好幾百頁,然後就洗錢罪的部分你可以把它抽出來看,它有很多加重因子,很多減輕因子,那個range啦,我這樣講好了啦,"},{"start":8645.427,"end":8671.89,"text":"我們的範圍大概在這裡他們範圍大概在這裡差別非常非常的大剛剛司法院在講說我們實際上面判出來的結果我不知道司法院看的是第幾年的資料但我現在要講的事情法務部應該很清楚因為是法務部違反洗錢防制案件的統計分析"},{"start":8672.771,"end":8693.384,"text":"依照法務部違反洗錢防制案罪的統計分析我跟大家說就針對違反洗錢防制的案子在一百零七年度到一百一十一年度就我們過去這幾年很嚴重的情況我現在不講詐欺就講洗錢"},{"start":8695.505,"end":8720.295,"text":"總共違反洗錢防制法的一萬一千五百四十四人其中一萬一千兩百三十三人是六個月以下有嫉妒心一萬一千五百四十四人裡面有一萬一千兩百三十三人是六個月以下有嫉妒心那代表什麼意思大概就一顆罰金就game over了"},{"start":8722.028,"end":8749.602,"text":"那,針對這些人,你們剛剛所在顧慮到的啦,就是一些比較小的啦,沒那麼嚴重,幹嘛處罰那麼重,一些年輕人,就幾乎啦,全部都是落在,全部都落在這裡面。在一萬一千五百四十四人當中,六個月以上一年未滿的,一百九十六個人。一年以上兩年未滿的,九十七個人。"},{"start":8751.045,"end":8778.373,"text":"兩年以上的只有十七個人我們看完了這個刑度上面的分佈我相信大家應該不難了解為什麼社會上對於我們在不管是詐欺還是洗錢特別是重大洗錢的為什麼大家會覺得法院所判出來的刑度為什麼會這麼輕為什麼會這麼輕大家事實上是有很深很深"},{"start":8780.066,"end":8807.042,"text":"的民營院那這個是我們為什麼在這一次我再強調一次詐欺的部分我們在詐欺專法在打的詐專法五上十二下那也很感謝在委員會審查的時候就得到多數委員的支持在洗錢的這個部分一以上的你把七年以下有期徒刑再加一個樓地板一年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":8808.223,"end":8829.873,"text":"我想司法院的代表也在這裡啊司法院的代表應該很清楚我國法官在量刑的時候不是從中間開始往上下調啦是從樓地板開始再往上下調所以我們為什麼三、三、九之四那個時候一年以上七年以下有期徒刑我們攤開來看大概都是一年一個月一年兩個月"},{"start":8831.013,"end":8856.865,"text":"一年三個月．審判實務上面就是這個樣子嘛．所以我們再拉回來看．針對洗錢．到一億以上的．我們樓地板給他訂三年以上有期徒刑．真的很重嗎．真的很重嗎好 謝謝寬寬昌總召的補充．接下來我們請傅坤祺總召請發言．鍾嘉斌委員請準備我想我們今天在"},{"start":8858.257,"end":8883.383,"text":"大家坐在這裡就是為了打詐釋法怎麼樣讓執法單位有更多的武器也讓處犯者有更多的警惕大家討論很久但是我們要特別對法務部剛剛表示的意見你講的完全正確但是有一個盲點我們現在針對的既然是打詐"},{"start":8888.254,"end":8908.706,"text":"打詐他們是一個集團在集團裡面這並不是說是哪一個你又講到貪污自罪條例還講到其他我們現在完全是因為打詐他洗錢的這個金額才是龐大的會很龐大我們現在一年台灣被詐欺有多少錢"},{"start":8911.043,"end":8938.928,"text":"而且大概幾個這個這個做什麼湯啊這大概是臺中啊幾掛人這個大概都在社會上大家都有聽到現在要強調的就是你說這個影響到家人跟配偶事實上事實上啊我們純就打詐來講的話我們現在一直盲點叫一以上一以上法務部可以考慮一下一以上"},{"start":8940.663,"end":8968.934,"text":"在其他的面向的法律上面是不是都是七年以上有期徒刑一以上的不罰所得也有很多三年以上十年以下或七年以上加重等等那為什麼在這裡而且剛剛我覺得次長有講到一個你不斷帶一個盲點說他的合法金額是多少然後他的非法金額是多少"},{"start":8970.206,"end":8992.606,"text":"當然是算它的非法金額而且它既然是合法金額有什麼好洗的非法所得才是洗錢嘛那現在就是說到底這個是洗錢一億還是不法所得一億以上"},{"start":8995.343,"end":9023.946,"text":"剛剛你有講到就是說這個由家人的戶頭然後最後它的合法的是多少非法可能只有一千萬那合法的超過九千萬然後最後變成一以上這是完全兩個概念並不是這樣這完全不是這樣因為我們一直強調是所得非法所得非法所得的部分所以現在到底我們打造事法要帶來就是這些"},{"start":9025.683,"end":9049.758,"text":"犯罪集團,你說現在車手齁,這個行業現在很夯啊,非常夯啊,現在年輕人有很多他可以當車手,哇這個所得這麼高,現在已經變成一個通病了,所以我們今天竟然要花這麼多時間討論打詐司法,要有足夠的嚇阻的力量,而且我一再強調,"},{"start":9051.656,"end":9073.001,"text":"如果改成三年以上的話﹖是他的不罰所得的金額﹖比方說這個洗錢集團﹖他把你洗一億元﹖他可能是拿多少﹖兩趴﹖可能兩百萬﹖他每一天進出的金額很大﹖可能一天的不罰的金額﹖可能就好幾千萬所得﹖"},{"start":9077.443,"end":9103.8,"text":"所以我們現在應該討論的是這個問題我們不要再去強調說他合法的金額是多少、非法的金額是多少我們一直在強調就是他的非法所得是多少好不好這才是我們在focus的重點好不好謝謝富坤祺總召發言接下來請鍾嘉斌委員再次發言好感謝我想我們這裡一直在談洗錢洗錢到底真實的樣貌是什麼請問主席我們在場有刑事警察局的同仁在嗎沒有嗎有"},{"start":9106.682,"end":9133.138,"text":"副局長我待會描述一下你幫我印證一下目前我們說的洗錢大家去想像什麼是洗錢洗錢就是把一些現金來源不明的或者有犯罪的我透過跟其他的現金雜流之後我再透過銀行的賬戶讓他查不出來源叫洗錢實務上我大概知道在我的接觸的選民服務或接觸的來陳述的陳情人當中大概有幾種現金"},{"start":9135.408,"end":9157.443,"text":"會用大量流動現金的第一個就是我們的職業賭場這是我們覺得要抓的那職業賭場他有大量的組織流動他要怎麼合理化這些犯罪所得他要有水房但是水房如果通通是職業賭場附設的水房他沒有辦法解釋這麼多的現金所以實務上有這樣的情況不知道是不是外籍移工經常會做非法打工"},{"start":9158.303,"end":9184.716,"text":"非法打工的所得都是現金所以有些業者、水房他幫外籍移工這樣的打工的現金他要做匯兌今晚會主委在這裡實務上是存在的因為我們的友善金融外籍移工在台灣他要做拿到了台灣的青台幣要匯回母國很多都是透過水房所以很多專營外籍移工這些匯兌的這些集團"},{"start":9186.076,"end":9210.608,"text":"進出的金額多．他就連同掩護他職業賭場的賭資這是一種另外一種會現金交易的是什麼．大家可能想像不到資源回收資源回收業者拍糖骨蝦．絕對是現金交易這些實荒的人受到資源回收業者來講．他一定現金給你所以資源回收業者有大量的現金"},{"start":9211.601,"end":9240.728,"text":"那這些現金也可能透過這樣的一個水房混雜在當中成為職業賭場的賭資的資金流通的來源所以當我們想像洗錢的時候我們要抓的是什麼就是這種水房的主持人他幫忙他透過幫外籍移工去做會隊他幫忙幫這些資源回收業者現金流通然後呢他加上結合賭資你看不出來他的樣貌所以每次我們看到新聞說沖水房沖水房就是抓這一個"},{"start":9241.806,"end":9256.376,"text":"但是這還是現金的部分但是我們看實務上這些法條的差別原來的法條第十四條因為七年以下沒有樓地板很多都判六個月一顆罰金那麼什麼人會判六個月一顆罰金"},{"start":9257.752,"end":9285.266,"text":"這種水防的主持人可能如果沒有足夠的事證判一課罰金有可能是什麼?職場小白出出社會他可能把自己的帳戶給人家用那這種情況之下實際的良心通常會給他六個月通常會給他六個月因為很多來的都是這樣子年輕人不懂事帳戶給人家使用通常法官問名之後他只是一個單一的帳戶給人使用但是這個帳戶的使用金額會多少呢?大概不至於到一億啦"},{"start":9286.434,"end":9308.613,"text":"所以這次的修法大概有幾個重點,第一個它加個樓地板,杜絕了以後沒有一克罰金的這個刑度,就一億以上的,但是一億以下的職艙小白還是維持六個月有一克罰金的機會,我們犯罪打擊是要抓手惡放小矛頭,"},{"start":9309.734,"end":9333.554,"text":"你會發現在我們的陳情當中有那種職場小白的判得很重來找我們也有那種被詐欺很多結果守謀判很輕的這兩種對象都是我們要對付的所以我們的立法部門就要想辦法讓守惡可以得到他應有的嚴懲但是也要讓這些小白不至於連置信的機會都沒有所以後來的說法一億以上的"},{"start":9334.468,"end":9363.079,"text":"一年以上、七年以下一億以下的小白大概就是六個月到五年這裡給予法官可以著個案去衡量現在如果我們做了這個區隔之後應該就不會有職場小白因為這樣子會一年以上或三年以上三年跟年差別是什麼?剛剛講得很清楚了二年以上就不能做緩刑宣告了所以我知道加到三年之後就表示什麼?一億以上的沒有緩刑的機會"},{"start":9364.383,"end":9378.557,"text":"但是兩年有沒有機會?一年有沒有機會?樓地板在一年、兩年跟三年的法律效果就是對一以上的這些守謀啊讓它沒有緩行宣告我想這是三年以上、十年以下的目的但是金管主委在這裡我要提醒一點"},{"start":9379.525,"end":9404.847,"text":"如果是這樣的話,這個三年以上跟一年以上差別在哪裡?首先,他不會一克罰金,一年以上就不能一克罰金。三年以上不得會緩行宣告。那接下來的洗錢會從職昌小白變成金融從業人員。因為金融從業人員如果去涉入了洗錢的業務,他的金額絕對不是職昌小白一個賬戶給你流通個幾百萬而已,一定一下子就是上億。"},{"start":9406.072,"end":9423.567,"text":"那所以未來可以想像法院會遇到的什麼?遇到的這些金融從業人員因為犯了洗房法這第十九條他的內容算起來金額達到一億以上但是他沒有怎樣?沒有二年以下的緩刑的機會"},{"start":9424.568,"end":9436.314,"text":"那這個時候快是才要頭痛了經營管委員要頭痛了我講一個例子讓大家知道我們在哪裏的分寸的哪裏我們固此會失比舉一個例子大法庭在幾年前針對"},{"start":9440.022,"end":9460.934,"text":"以債務人為名的要保人的保單給予債權人可以申請強制執行當年這個大法庭的裁定我猜想很多惡性倒帳的人他跟人家借了很多的錢轉換成保單、儲蓄保單、高額保單然後名下沒有財產結果債權人要去強制執行沒有房地產可以執行一大堆保單"},{"start":9462.299,"end":9476.97,"text":"這些保單都是他實際的財產後來大法庭為了針對這樣的惡性倒帳所以規定以債務人為名的要保人的保單可以讓債權人去申請強制執行但是過了兩年後發生什麼事情了"},{"start":9477.811,"end":9503.986,"text":"故然這些惡性倒帳的大概不敢再用保單來轉移、脫產了但是發生了一堆退休的、將借退的他的健康保險、醫療險、癌症險的保單也不過五、六張強制解約可能拿不到五、六萬他欠的錢可能一、兩百萬結果紛紛被債權人以要求強制執行將他之後他也名下也沒有車也沒有房他靠這個保單出了病他要靠這個醫療"},{"start":9505.657,"end":9514.032,"text":"兩、三百萬價值的保單．已經沒有辦法買到年輕時的費率保單．健康型的保單．因此被強制解約後．解約金也不過三、五萬不到十萬"},{"start":9515.337,"end":9543.45,"text":"這樣一個大法庭才是本來用意是要對付那些惡性的導障可是當時做了這個決定之後忘了後半段對於那些弱勢的部分沒有了保障所以要提醒當我們做一個刑度的決定的時候不要只看我們的主要目標要看它可能波及影響了其他的非主要目標它可能會受到影響所以我在這裡很慎重提出來如果說我們現在是用法務部的版本一年以上七年以下它的效果就是什麼"},{"start":9544.15,"end":9561.808,"text":"不得一克罰金那我認為這個合理因為一億以上的不可能是紙糖小白的問題但是可能是金融從業人員的問題但是你調告到三年以上他就沒有兩年以下的緩刑宣告的裁量餘地了就沒有這個良心餘度了這時候就強迫法院一旦拿到"},{"start":9563.119,"end":9582.382,"text":"這個金融業的從業人員、協助、洗錢、超額以上的通通要入監服刑所以這個因為還沒有發生所以我們沒有想像但是一旦這個定了之後可能金管會就要開始來面對這個問題我們為了保單強制執行解約最近好不容易才有保險局協助將八類的保單列為不得強制執行"},{"start":9583.283,"end":9606.964,"text":"非受險類的﹐非儲蓄型的﹐而是保障型的﹐癌症險、健康險、醫療險﹐而且金額在十萬以內的﹐我們就不得列為強制執行﹐以保障這些弱勢的債務人﹐但是我們還是要堅決的去處罰這些惡性重大的、倒帳的債務人﹐那我是希望未來的良心上﹐不只是法務要表示意見﹐金管會要想清楚﹐我們洗錢防制法最大的可能來源是什麼﹐"},{"start":9611.122,"end":9629.613,"text":"以後這個加上去洗錢會有銀行帳號最多容易上下洗手是什麼?金融用成員人員三年以上以後第一次犯一億以上沒有緩刑的餘地沒有緩刑的餘地一年以上有緩刑的餘地但不可一顆罰金所以這個部分我是覺得金管會跟法務部你們要慎重其餘量去思考"},{"start":9630.697,"end":9630.937,"text":"是希望說﹖"},{"start":9652.978,"end":9671.868,"text":"是希望說可以在這一輪就把這個做一個定案然後因為討論這麼久也非常的透徹那我覺得我們要回到委員會因為今天我們如果直接以台灣民眾黨黨團的委員會的這一這個paper修正動議那我們直接看審查會通過版本然後再"},{"start":9672.748,"end":9672.888,"text":"二、研商有關"},{"start":9694.088,"end":9708.126,"text":"能不能夠有效嚇阻呢?其實去對應我會覺得對應我們在委員會第一次看到這個新版本修正的時候現行的條文現行的條文沒有樓地板對不對就直接七年然後五百萬"},{"start":9709.207,"end":9724.493,"text":"然後我們把第三項拿掉了那是跟上這個國際的組織的規範如果回到原始條文的比較的這個時候其實就可以看出我們要遏止犯罪加重刑度的努力"},{"start":9725.453,"end":9740.185,"text":"但現在如果就民眾黨版提出來的這個審查會通過的版本要再加碼再去看它的第十九條的修正動議其實某種程度我們在遺忘了本來就已經提高刑度的那個思考"},{"start":9740.865,"end":9762.126,"text":"所以我非常同意剛剛幾位委員的討論我們在做任何的刑度的我們要入法對立法委員很簡單我的數字填一填大家有一個基本的論述可是我們要打擊的主要目標也不要去誤傷很多他不是那麼惡性重大的無辜者所以那個橫評是非常重要的"},{"start":9763.027,"end":9788.85,"text":"所以希望我覺得回到原始的修法就是現行條文跟修正後的條文我們認為有沒有加重?有可不可以達到一致的效果?我認為會而且可以精準打擊主婦有別所以橫平性是很重要的所以我希望大家可以很慎重很理性其實修法加重行動真的我們修法不要那麼民粹啦"},{"start":9789.791,"end":9794.558,"text":"我覺得審查會通過的版本是經過我們深思熟慮,請大家支持好嗎?"},{"start":9801.171,"end":9821.796,"text":"那個報告所有的更好那剪短來謝謝因為喔再想一下因為昨天的有關於這個詐欺危害防制法2394嘛最主要最主謀嘛那你這個是連前置犯罪那個全部來嘛那剛才中山英委員講很清楚請大家思考一下好不好"},{"start":9823.672,"end":9837.45,"text":"報告所有黨團幹部跟各位所有閣員建會主委你下午兩點半你還是要參加我們兩點半要繼續好不好好那個彭主委請補充"},{"start":9840.8,"end":9859.126,"text":"有關這一條我們還有第五條其實我們沒有爭議這部分應該是保留應該我們都同意剛剛那個部分的話我們剛剛就是該中委員提到一些顧慮我們過去我們也就是比較沒有思考到這一點因為我們討論原來沒有討論到不過剛剛"},{"start":9861.647,"end":9861.987,"text":"王國昌總裁,請"},{"start":9882.694,"end":9900.036,"text":"那今晚會主委下午還會來嗎對嘛我這樣說好了啦金融機構的人涉入洗錢這是何其嚴重的事情外國法怎麼罰的啊外國法怎麼罰的啊我相信金管會很清楚啦那"},{"start":9900.777,"end":9922.655,"text":"中加兵委員很擔心說我們的金融從業人員涉入洗錢很容易就會洗超過一億然後給他三年最低的有期徒刑連假釋的機會都沒有真的是太那個了我相信臺灣的金融機構我們的金融從業人員會涉入洗錢的事情"},{"start":9924.281,"end":9944.692,"text":"那個案件到目前為止有多少金融機構的人員因為涉入洗錢而被起訴的我相信那個數字非常非常的低要不然在臺灣早就成為超級大新聞了那是不是下午請金管會主委來的時候把宗嘉斌"},{"start":9945.572,"end":9945.952,"text":"三、研商有關"},{"start":9969.505,"end":9979.192,"text":"就是被起訴的整理給大家看看看看是不是按照他的那個犯罪行為的太陽跟他的惡性我們需要擔心這件事情"},{"start":9980.288,"end":9981.288,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨黨幹部"},{"start":10002.076,"end":10011.961,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部熱烈的發言各位所有列席的閣員各位官員我們上午協商到此為止下午兩點半繼續協商我們現在休息謝謝"},{"start":16458.694,"end":16479.465,"text":"非常非常感謝各位黨團的所有的黨團幹部現在我們列席的官員有一點調整我再來宣布一下我們非常歡迎法務部的黃政務次長,歡迎司法院的黃副秘書長,歡迎您經管會的彭主委,歡迎數位發展部的林政務次長,歡迎"},{"start":16481.406,"end":16507.433,"text":"國家傳播委員會的黃文哲黃祖密歡迎您內政部地政司的張世察內政部有列名的等一下到了之後再說內政部警政署刑事警察局林副局長歡迎您內政部移民署的魏世察歡迎財政部許專門委員謝專門委員對不起謝專門委員歡迎您"},{"start":16510.871,"end":16526.532,"text":"財政部官務署 國副組長 歡迎經濟部商業發展署 莊副組長 歡迎您衛生福利部政風處的蔡副處長 歡迎中央銀行金融業務檢察處的謝副處長"},{"start":16529.096,"end":16544.403,"text":"歡迎,好,那麻煩請金管會彭主委針對我們上一個部分所討論的十九條金融從業人員這個黃國昌總召所提的還有其他委員所提的,麻煩請做個簡短二要說明,謝謝"},{"start":16545.063,"end":16574.107,"text":"市議院長、各位委員長,承蒙早上隨巡的有關金融業現在過去因為違反洗錢防制法的一個案例經過我們早上回去中午去查詢的結果過去銀行在最近幾年只有兩個案例兩個案例有兩個行員因為勾結這個詐團去因為這樣而被起訴另外的話在有關這個會計師部分是過去五年是沒有"},{"start":16576.168,"end":16581.492,"text":"有關虛擬資產的那個VASP的話是一百零八年就是王牌交易所那案 以上就沒有了 謝謝"},{"start":16583.541,"end":16583.741,"text":"法務部黃征務長"},{"start":16614.021,"end":16620.545,"text":"這個比較法上相關的規定第一個,你剛所講的那兩個行員跟那個詐團勾結的,現在的階段是只有起訴還是有判第一審出來?"},{"start":16642.752,"end":16665.257,"text":"現在是起訴,他起訴的罪名是包括加重詐欺跟洗錢還是連組織都有?加重詐欺、洗錢跟組織三個嘛那反正最後組織跟洗錢就會被想像淨核掉最後用加重詐欺判嘛我的理解應該沒有錯吧,廳長"},{"start":16668.24,"end":16674.526,"text":"請司法院請答覆所以我們現在並沒有什麼年輕的行員就一下無知透過銀行去洗錢我們到目前為止就是這兩個人嘛處於起訴的階段嘛"},{"start":16688.055,"end":16700.997,"text":"包括就以現在的我們現在有的案例就是我們現在收集到是這兩個案例OK那第二個事情是你剛剛說我們現在要討論銀行的那你說也有參與王牌交易所的"},{"start":16701.923,"end":16704.344,"text":"第二件事情是謝謝法務部我知道你們很辛苦在這麼短的時間當中"},{"start":16729.007,"end":16740.05,"text":"我對德國法那邊的掌握,大概如同剛剛次長所講的大家也可以看得到,如果是一個比較重的,事實上是可以拉到十年"},{"start":16741.312,"end":16758.114,"text":"我剛上午在講的美國法的案例是到二十年但我可以理解為什麼大家可能對於拉到山上跟石下是不是會誤傷無辜事實上我必須要老實講"},{"start":16759.375,"end":16784.135,"text":"沒有什麼人有那個財力搞到洗到一億以上你談到這個數額的時候真的會搞到那個金額以上的事實上案子並不多但我現在試圖提出一個折衷的方向讓大家思考那個折衷的方向是說我們在有關於打詐專法的時候針對"},{"start":16788.029,"end":16788.109,"text":"因此﹐"},{"start":16814.042,"end":16842.078,"text":"我剛思考了一下另外一個可能的方向是我們在第一項就是說在本來現在在討論的十九條的地方十九條的地方一億以上的一億以上的我們維持我們維持就是現在法務部他們認為一個比較好的就是我們只要一上七下就好了但是增加第二項"},{"start":16843.311,"end":16867.492,"text":"如果是以發起組織操縱指揮犯罪組織犯前項前段之罪所謂前項前段就是一樣我們不搞小的一億以上的你如果一億以上是用發起組織犯罪的方式去判的那針對那種比較"},{"start":16869.844,"end":16889.09,"text":"大型的組織形態的首腦就像剛剛次長所講的在德國法的第二級那樣子往上拉到山上石下我試圖啦就看大家因為我老實說啦"},{"start":16891.807,"end":16917.258,"text":"我真實的想法一以上的三上十下其實真的不會太重你只要考慮到現實上面的狀況我們法官在量刑的時候都是從最低開始往上想那只是說看要不要如果在黨團協商的過程當中大家真的覺得"},{"start":16918.587,"end":16920.108,"text":"接下來我們請柯建民總召請發言好"},{"start":16948.923,"end":16962.399,"text":"國民在討論這一條的時候要了解2018的時候AVG洗錢防治組織第三輪的時候那時候我們被列為觀察名單是一個非常緊張危險的時刻因為要到"},{"start":16963.499,"end":16981.026,"text":"蔡英文總統執政以後我們才開始去好好的去面對洗錢防制法那洗錢防制法一修再修那我們1990年代從來沒有但是國際洗錢防制組織已經對我們的洗錢防制組織的所有的法有一些意見"},{"start":16981.966,"end":17007.997,"text":"然後假如我們第三輪沒有過的時候﹖會發生什麼﹖發生台灣是全球經濟孤島﹖包括你要廢情整個國家就完蛋了所以在這個時候大家要記得2018年的時候為了第三輪所以修了五個法又洗錢防制法指控防制法還有國際司法互助還有一個叫公司法到底要對公司的人要到第幾層"},{"start":17009.818,"end":17023.647,"text":"那還有一個叫做……一個叫做中央團體排除,台灣法院法這五個法我們如有如足的修"},{"start":17024.744,"end":17041.047,"text":"當然是為了為了A、B、C第三輪嘛所以要考慮哪一個法修有多少分、哪一個法修有多少分所以公司法則說那時候沒有修到最嚴格的那時候課分不多那洗黃法、這個防制法一定要再修那以前沒有修的部分包括那種財產法案法"},{"start":17042.108,"end":17066.059,"text":"那財源法和文法分為兩種,一種是屬於公家財源法和文法,一種是屬於私人財源法和文法。那私人財源法就當然管制程度是不一樣嘛,因為財源法也可以洗錢嘛。那最後判到一個最糾葛最大的就是宗教團體要不要納入。那把中央團體納入,那為了中央團體是我納入,引起很大風波嘛。"},{"start":17067.386,"end":17081.645,"text":"所以中央參議員排除掉,那時候我們排除掉。那時候我講這個就是說,我為了因為ABC是第三輪嘛,所以第三輪剛剛,因為完畢以後,他們對我們有一些堅硬的看法,而且我們修了"},{"start":17082.586,"end":17099.97,"text":"還要再繼續修也就是說現在第十四條它講的先兩項不得刻意超過其確定犯罪、鎖定罪行本行也就是說主從不能一致的當然這個法律上也不同因為刑事防制有兩種一個是個人財產的損失"},{"start":17102.751,"end":17123.42,"text":"因為國家經濟知識的問題嘛所以法律上不同,他認為我們這樣修的法律師學校不對所以叫我們去改嘛,才有今天所謂這個東西大家講清楚但今天修出來的東西是比較多,法務部是把整個金額來計算一億以上今天"},{"start":17124.608,"end":17145.643,"text":"最大重點就在這裡我要請教黃國昌委員你那犯罪守則的疑義,早上分析也講說犯罪守則的疑義,那是犯罪守則的疑義,那是很大的因為我們這邊是金額超過疑義,但是他不會有六個以上、文以下,還有判緩性的機會好,我們現在發生這個問題的時候"},{"start":17148.447,"end":17176.866,"text":"兩張分析也講過你想不想要一趴一個一趴你就一趴把人家你要弄到一億至少要一百次啊一百次,你只要翻的時候才能打到一億啊那現在這個就是有發生道德風險了我們現在這個例子,我們這樣是要幹什麼?那一億以下都可以翻掉嗎?這有極大高峰,我不知道現在七十五年有沒有一億以下,應該很多嘛是吧?因為他守則要差不多做一億要一百百"},{"start":17178.649,"end":17199.819,"text":"對吧?所以,我不知道,因為你委員剛剛、荒唐委員今天在講這個問題說已經犯罪手、已經寫犯罪手了,這個可能有個案解套的問題。這個極大到手風險,所以要小心。我覺得你這個寫法不是A、B、C、O、9,我們您把這全部另轉過來。這一點我倒是有不同意見。那荒唐委員這樣說啊,"},{"start":17202.805,"end":17215.656,"text":"主持犯罪那個頭頭三上十下但是你不要忘記你在我們詐欺犯罪法有關於刑法三十九之四"},{"start":17217.41,"end":17238.252,"text":"三九四是上一屆才修,已經加重,這次你再加重,OK沒有關係,一以上一以上吧,是五到十二年,那你今天這兩個邏輯就不通了既然要加重,你這邊要把一以下,你把一以下翻到自由道路風險這一點我們請大家注意一下"},{"start":17240.686,"end":17247.199,"text":"然後你所舉的什麼國外的案例我們只要符APG就可以了接下來我們再請黃國昌總召請發言"},{"start":17249.972,"end":17271.822,"text":"先說明一下我們現在在討論的是我們的修正動議根本就不存在剛剛柯建民總召所存在那個問題上一次在委員會審查的時候討論過法務部解釋我們就把用語弄一字用語已經弄一字了嘛我們現在坐在這邊討論的就跟法務部的文字完全一字嘛"},{"start":17272.702,"end":17295.111,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下,你怎麼會又胡亂的去扯什麼個案解套、道德風險,根本就不存在這個問題嘛。沒有啦,你看一下我們現在在跑的條文嘛,就不一樣就不一樣啦,你現在怎麼這樣凹完。來來來來來來,唸。把我們的再修正東西的條文。沒有。我上面不是寫犯罪所的。"},{"start":17302.623,"end":17307.209,"text":"今天在討論的早就提出來了洗錢的財務或財產上利益你說錯了啦"},{"start":17320.56,"end":17344.025,"text":"你說錯了啦不是,今天上午交出來的版本上一次在委員會在協商的時候已經討論過了法務部解釋過了我們文字就一次了所以不存在剛剛柯建民總召所指的這件事我覺得這個事情很重要"},{"start":17345.61,"end":17368.07,"text":"必須要把它說清楚。我們先確認這個基礎事實再往下討論嘛。文字就一字了嘛。主席,那我先確認齁,剛剛黃總召的提議齁,其實就去...對不起,我沒有看到你修正版本嘛。我問你修正版本是寫這個,你的意義是什麼?"},{"start":17370.918,"end":17399.939,"text":"因為上午我們就討論到一開始幾乎是沒有分級就是七年以下那很容易在判的時候不分大小有的都判六個月就一顆罰金那真正那些守謀惡性的又判得很低所以這次法務部的案子分成兩級一億以上跟一億以下一億以下是六個月以上五年以下然後一億以上的是一億一年以上七年以下那以上七下的就沒有一顆罰金的可能了"},{"start":17400.659,"end":17429.357,"text":"一億以下的因為是六個月起跳所以還有一顆罰金一億以下的可能有剛剛早上說的爺爺職場小白被利用做賬戶人頭這種的金額大概會不會超過一億我想大致上常理來判斷應該不至於因為他可能是偶一被利用另外我們早上提到的其實我也私下要跟刑事警察局去做一個請教就是現在我們要抓的像這些水房這些真的就是為洗錢為目標在用"},{"start":17430.457,"end":17453.262,"text":"掩護其他非法的黑錢的這些目標大概你們有沒有統計他們的金額查獲的時候大概是多少的規模那另外呢金管會也在這裡早上問到金管會因為現在我們條文修改後第二條也好第五條也好金管會它所含設的範圍包括虛幣那未來那個另外我們還有把第三方支付當然那不是金管會的範圍"},{"start":17454.666,"end":17469.08,"text":"這些未來都有可能作為洗錢的掩護的那他們的這些經常性的交易規模大概是多少這個不涉及到對剛剛黃總召所說的分三級黃總召三級是說六年以上"},{"start":17470.441,"end":17491.326,"text":"六個月以上五年以下一年以上七年以下再去抓首謀組織性的弄個三年以上十年以下就分成三級那從原來的完全不分級到法務的主張分兩級到現在再分三級第三級最嚴重的就是一億以上而且呢它也類似我們上午所審查的我們的這個"},{"start":17492.666,"end":17515.159,"text":"相關的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例當中一樣對於組織者、守謀者予以更嚴重的一個制裁那這個方向上我想都符合社會的期待那是不是這個部分可以請刑事警察去說明一下這樣的三級分級是不是真的可以抓到讓那些守謀那些我們不能寬待的可以適用到三年以上十年以下大概以上建議"},{"start":17519.571,"end":17545.502,"text":"其實警察局林副局長你腦海中有沒有一些案例可以要跟我們大家一起分享,請院長、各位委員、協議局這邊報告依我們統計記錄來講的話在去年我們偵辦這些詐團的部分依實際的不法犯罪所得超過一億的我們就有六件"},{"start":17547.129,"end":17568.718,"text":"黃國昌總召現在刑事檢察局報告六件去年就不法所得就單純不法所得可能涉及到他洗錢不然購買珠寶房產那個車輛等等掩飾他的整個不法犯罪所得在去年有六件今年有九件那所以現在為止九件到現在"},{"start":17570.577,"end":17599.209,"text":"以破我們查扣的這些的一個個案來講的話﹖你說去年有幾件?去年有六件。今年到現在有九件。是。所以是不是數字急劇的在膨脹了,對不對?在成長。報告委員應該是說我們在追查的這個方法跟技術部分可以比過去更成功了,因為我們更有經驗。破案率高啦。現在廣告時間。那另外就是說洗錢管道其實它基本上它會"},{"start":17600.149,"end":17620.022,"text":"有分層的處置的方式到最後會統合所以他也可能是會以比如說一個辦理地下會對非法洗的部分他可能有涉及到博弈也可能涉及到詐欺或是涉及到一般的外籍移工他們的一個轉會所以在累積如果單純的來論累積金額來講的話因為他每天都會做一億來講長時間來講是不困難"},{"start":17628.647,"end":17654.119,"text":"如果是長時間他不斷再從事的話,半年超過一億其實蠻容易的。那個,院長。現在請國民黨團副困境總導發言,請。那個,呃,瓜葬啊。我覺得這個東西,我們用了太多的時間了。從十一點二十談到現在,我們要再次強調,我們是協助政府。"},{"start":17655.387,"end":17683.274,"text":"要如何打詐打詐釋法要怎麼樣能夠更嚴謹讓政府有更多的工具跟武器所以現在一般來講在不法所得一以上一以上所有的這些刑法還是其他的法不法所得一以上幾乎都三點以上有期徒刑那在這個部分其實這跟小白跟車手都沒有什麼直接關係了"},{"start":17685.278,"end":17709.375,"text":"這是詐團首腦,我們都很清楚,一個詐團要搞異議太容易了嘛不法所得意義上,那還是算小團的啦那他們所得要透過這個水房去洗嘛,對不對所以說剛剛這個刑事局的,剛剛這位副局長已經講了嘛"},{"start":17709.895,"end":17715.376,"text":"五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一"},{"start":17733.389,"end":17754.384,"text":"長夜洗錢的一以上也很普通現在這兩個部分這沒有主從的問題它是在洗錢的範圍裡面長夜的洗錢這是長夜的詐騙的我們現在這個方面要不要可以比較重的刑罰有嚇阻力"},{"start":17756.024,"end":17782.273,"text":"今天我們在這裡從十一點二十到現在時間太多了我們都是給執政政府有更大的工具跟力量好不好我覺得柯總召這事情無需再討論就是說你們覺得我的建議啦我們在討論基隆要講沒有意思啦就是說你要一年以上七年以下"},{"start":17784.028,"end":17806.33,"text":"三年以上十年以下基本上國民黨開放啦我剛剛問了一下黃總他也不堅持啦現在就是說你們到底給執政者有更大的工具今天是我們在這裡協商打詐司法是為了這個事情那你覺得說怎麼樣有利於有利於打詐"},{"start":17807.677,"end":17823.451,"text":"有利於把這些不法行為人繩之以法（有更強的嚇阻（我知道你所說我還講得很清楚所以我覺得討論到這裡可以啦你們要怎麼樣就講反正很簡單我沒有意見好不好那接下來莊銳雄我先講一下我先講你要繼續換嗎"},{"start":17829.517,"end":17831.879,"text":"好 柯建民總教育發言人 請準備"},{"start":17853.553,"end":17858.364,"text":"所以我剛剛講黃國昌是犯罪所﹖他現在又不是早上又跟你一樣啊你現在說...你現在說...你現在說...沒有人..."},{"start":17863.055,"end":17865.817,"text":"我們講水防是長夜的嘛!水防是發足的意義上!"},{"start":17865.817,"end":17886.729,"text":"到底你們兩個人是不是疑似?早上你早來跟人家說這句話,你們在說什麼?沒關係啦,我們尊重你們啦!沒有,你們聽我說嘛!你們浪費時間,早上你只有來,講不到一分鐘!我們從早上一直坐到現在,你現在來又說再浪費時間!什麼叫早上我不坐在這裡啊?你來坐一分鐘講這一條,你早上就進來一分鐘講這一條嘛!"},{"start":17888.86,"end":17896.923,"text":"因為我在講到底是否犯罪所得黃國昌說要改了那我誤會他要改了可是你講完以後黃國昌就說我犯罪所得現在你現在又講犯罪所得黃國昌師傅又同意我們到底今天講清楚到底在講什麼事情這才是關鍵嘛我現在瞭解你們兩個有沒有一致嘛"},{"start":17922.516,"end":17937.506,"text":"麻煩請莊銳雄委員發言 黃國昭 黃國昭總統請準備其實我剛聽了大家的發言 如果像那個 叫什麼叫什麼名字 副官司 叫他小副"},{"start":17940.228,"end":17969.454,"text":"就是說如果他講的是長夜的話我又沒意見了所以不要以為我們早上爭執到現在是沒有意義是超級有意義啊我一直在講說請法務部來提供或者說我跟黃國昌總召我們意見有不同我也知道他想幹什麼啊他今天提出來的折衷案裡面我也知道這個會有所掙扎跟拉扯啊那如果說你這個部分要把它類型化到長夜那我沒意見了我會支持你喔"},{"start":17970.117,"end":17992.467,"text":"那如果說你說長夜這個部分你要去處罰 你要把它加重 各黨團不會有意見啊我們是怕說你那個設成裡面 黃國昌總統他就是考量到一點點所以他才決定要把它給弄下來 把它往下再調嘛那所以說啊 其實倒也不是說是無辜啦 是說輕重會失衡"},{"start":17995.936,"end":18017.486,"text":"對對對,犯罪所得跟那個金額確實也完全是不一樣的概念啦所以上面就太是浪費時間我們大家一直在那邊拔河,就是在想說怎麼樣才會比較好一點那如果中國國民黨那邊要提修正案,你說長夜的部分是三到七我們民進黨我們也可以附和你啊,你要把它類型化我們願意啊現在沒有長夜了,一做一發囉"},{"start":18019.175,"end":18020.698,"text":"我剛剛已經說得非常的清楚了"},{"start":18029.81,"end":18055.84,"text":"我們上一次委員會協商的時候法務部說明為什麼不採其他我們在加重的時候基本上不管是在政教法或者是這一次的打詐專法裡面都是用犯罪所得所以才用那個名詞上一次委員會協商的時候中嘉賓召委主持的"},{"start":18058.024,"end":18073.49,"text":"法務部說明了以後我說沒有問題就按照法務部說明的文字做調整我們堅持的只有在這一次洗錢防制法的修正當中沒有加重處罰"},{"start":18075.358,"end":18087.494,"text":"當然有人說有加重處罰說已經一年以上了已經一年以上那個叫加重處罰但我就不是這樣看理由是說你把它分成兩個類型第一種類型"},{"start":18090.137,"end":18111.083,"text":"是五年以下有期徒刑那大概就是在處理我們現在所講的百分之九十以上的案子甚至是百分之九十五以上的案子甚至是百分之九十七以上的案子我們剛剛早上看法務部的統計資料通通都是這個樣子"},{"start":18112.759,"end":18137.39,"text":"上一次委員會協商完了以後我們就已經按照法務部建議的文字做調整了從今天早上開始一直到現在為止臺灣民眾黨提出來的修正動議所使用的文字都是依照他洗錢的財務或財產上利益"},{"start":18139.345,"end":18165,"text":"從早上到下午從來沒有變動過放在各位的桌上白紙黑字從來沒有變動過從早上到下午我們所提出來的再修正動議從來沒有修正過因為上一次委員會協商就已經調整過了嘛所以我不知道柯建民總統剛剛在說什麼我聽不懂那你嘛 可以吧"},{"start":18167.824,"end":18176.02,"text":"請說啊對啊 我是看這一本嘛你長這個丟手我一直在聽大家講因為我副分局後來跑進來說要犯罪守則所以我"},{"start":18177.324,"end":18177.684,"text":"這件事情﹖"},{"start":18206.84,"end":18230.493,"text":"我再重申一致立場是我們現行的法定刑度是七年以下有期徒刑我們這次改完了所謂對於比較重大的一億以上的我們的改法是一年以上七年以下有期徒刑那我個人認為"},{"start":18232.517,"end":18255.71,"text":"實際上沒有加重你加了一個樓地板一年以上七年以下再處理一億以上的我認為沒有加重所以我才會主張三年以上、十年以下三年以上、四年以下而我們法院目前在量刑的時候都是從樓地板開始算"},{"start":18256.65,"end":18262.73,"text":"都是從樓地板開始算 這個司法實務上面實際上面運作的結果 大家都很清楚"},{"start":18264.195,"end":18266.717,"text":"我們的立場就是這個樣子以上說明完畢"},{"start":18294.355,"end":18314.807,"text":"基本上進出的金錢他只要製造斷點大概都是詐騙來的那另外有些水房他會混雜比如說其他外籍移工、地下會隊的錢那後者這個東西就是用一種灰色地帶來隱藏他龐大進出的金流那這些進出的金流就不完全是不法犯罪所得而可能是"},{"start":18315.367,"end":18333.507,"text":"在這個過程當中參與的洗錢的財務．所以成如剛剛副校長所說的．如果是後者這種類型參與洗錢的財務．可能不要說半年．一個月的金額都數十億．大家可能有點瞭解的話．目前外籍移工在臺灣．他每個月的地下會隊．"},{"start":18334.608,"end":18358.561,"text":"我要強調這個地下會隊不是犯罪所得他只是一個違反我們的金融法規的一個地下會隊那這種灰色地帶所參與的水防他其實並不是他只是會混雜這些詐騙所得或犯罪所得的黑錢但是他製造警方在查的斷點的困難那我是覺得三級的防制是不是可以請法務部回答一下"},{"start":18359.241,"end":18382.234,"text":"因為我們看到了組織犯罪條例的第三條第一項（它其實就是誠如剛剛黃總統所說的（組織犯罪條例第三條第一項（它對於守謀（發起者是三到十年（的確是如此（所以我是覺得我們各項的打詐法（還有犯罪防制法令呢（是不是我們會取得一個行動上的一致性（就像我們早上也談到的（對於守謀的我們也加重（"},{"start":18385.677,"end":18402.215,"text":"今天我們對洗錢的部分,它如果是屬於後者,它只是被犯罪集團利用它的灰色地帶來進行洗錢的,可能它的金額很容易就超過一億,但不會全都是不法犯罪所得,可能是洗錢的財務很容易超過一億的,這種可能是一到七年。"},{"start":18402.836,"end":18429.964,"text":"但是如果是犯罪集團他們所謀發起的專門來負責洗這些不法所得的可能我們可以參考組織犯罪條例第三條第一項予以他三到十年這樣較重的刑責是不是請法務部說明一下因為這個不同的法條我們希望他對於犯罪的嚴重程度有比較一致性的良心那個傅昆吉總統請等一下我們先請法務部解釋麻煩請法務部的黃正智這個還有前次犯罪的問題"},{"start":18433.223,"end":18460.996,"text":"好,謝謝主席還有大任各位委員那法務部說明就是說因為剛剛黃國昌總召提出來的這個三層的這個建議我們是剛剛才聽到了那所以我們初步先回應就是說我們之前為什麼我們認為說一億元以上就直接跳到三上十下我們會有所疑慮是因為我們目前我們整個刑法體系的這個刑度有一個表"},{"start":18462.537,"end":18473.724,"text":"一階一階上去因為洗錢的行為同樣都是洗錢的行為並沒有其他的要件在增加只是它的金額比較大所以我們認知這樣的罪質是要再加一級"},{"start":18478.507,"end":18493.638,"text":"三上十下是跳兩級在我們整個刑事法的這個刑度的這個平衡上面我們覺得有點可能跳太快這樣子但是如果說再加入了這一個所謂的操縱犯罪組織守謀的話我們認為是可以討論的就是說在"},{"start":18496.68,"end":18518.391,"text":"本來分兩集,現在分三集但是到底要怎麼去界定這個犯罪過程要見,可能要請具體的文字讓我們稍微看一下、演繹一下那我們也請同仁現在來處理沒關係,那法務部這邊同仁處理的時候,剛才我們也看到一個版本先收回去,等一下文字再做調整,我們再來彙整,好不好接下來請傅坤祺總召請發言那個,院長"},{"start":18523.717,"end":18534.855,"text":"我們早上幾點鐘開始協商?十點半您在的時候我在不在?我們十一開會開到十二點四十四分副科技總召在"},{"start":18536.712,"end":18559.647,"text":"所以我要特別強調大家在這裡協商針對條文我再次講不要在那邊點名、點人、點什麼東西這個都是一個基本的一個禮儀啊因為你的想法你講沒有關係嘛點東點西的這就是很奇怪的東西什麼叫人家進來總共講一分鐘的話這個都很不適宜啦本黨有提的案子"},{"start":18566.695,"end":18594.442,"text":"對不對（詐欺防制法二十四條、二十五條（對不對（各種大家跑來問我是不是這樣可以（總加兵也跑來問我是不是這樣可以（對不對（今晚回來跟我講了多少次（什麼叫我在這裡講一分鐘（我不知道在講什麼（不要老是人身攻擊嘛 對不對我們本黨有版本的（我們有我們的想法（那現在在討論洗錢防制法（本黨沒有提案（沒有提版本（所以我很尊重大家的意見（你們去討論"},{"start":18596.172,"end":18620.899,"text":"同樣我們終究還是說執政黨是你們要對全民負責嘛所以打仗是好我們大家花那麼多時間我從來就沒有講過浪費時間嘛就我們已經討論了三個小時現在是不是要告一個結論對不對我們說你執政黨你們要負責嘛你打仗有沒有成績嘛越打越炸還是打了以後有成績今天給你武器嘛我們戰略黨都是支持嘛大家討論和氣一點"},{"start":18624.827,"end":18648.756,"text":"不需要再講,已經有的沒有的嘛,對不對?副總召,我們上會是十二點四十四分,副總召在我們就尊重他的意見嘛,已經講了嘛,也不用大家講來講去,我希望以後就事論事好,謝謝我知道我叮你一句,麻煩法務部那個文字可能要稍微快一點點那接下來我們請黃國昌總召請發言,何建民總召請準備"},{"start":18652.185,"end":18679.314,"text":"法務部喔你們要做這個文字上面的調整上一次委員會我就尊重了但當我們在討論洗錢罪的時候這一次為什麼把第三項修掉把第三項修掉就是肯認洗錢它有獨自要保護的法義存在否則第三項修掉一點意義都沒有好那這一次我們把第三項修掉"},{"start":18681.546,"end":18701.512,"text":"與國際上的標準結軌肯認洗錢罪本身有獨自保護的法義與前置犯罪兩者是兩回事如果不是兩回事第三項不會刪除請法務部看你們自己行政院的版本所提出來的立法理由"},{"start":18702.552,"end":18714.921,"text":"你們的立法理由是怎麼寫的?你們的立法理由說,鑒於洗錢行為,除了侵害人民財產法例外,並影響合法資本市場及足道偵查。兩個法例出來了喔?"},{"start":18720.185,"end":18745.778,"text":"一個是影響合法資本市場第二個除老增差再往下洗錢犯罪、行為人犯罪所得越高對金融秩序的危害通常越大上面寫行為人的犯罪所得越高對金融秩序的危害越大"},{"start":18747.069,"end":18770.507,"text":"這也是你們自己寫在立法理由裡的那所以你們以洗錢的財務或財產上的利益是否達新台幣一億以上作為情節慶祝的標準我剛講的全部都是你們寫在立法理由上面的說明這些立法理由上面的說明我都贊成但我對於你們這一次"},{"start":18772.56,"end":18796.28,"text":"考慮了這一些法議了以後,你們的解決方案竟然是一億以上的加一個地板,一年。我不能同意。我不能同意。你們針對小白,你說要把他弄到五年以下,這個我同意。因為不管改不改,現在的操作就是這樣嘛。"},{"start":18798.206,"end":18824.581,"text":"不管改不改現在的操作對小白啦不管改不改現在的操作就是這個樣子啦現在雖然是七年以下七年以下是好看的啦我們剛剛法務部的統計資料拿出來看非常清楚啊一萬多件一萬兩千多件裡面一萬兩千多件都六個月以下我們真正care的事情真的到上面的"},{"start":18829.42,"end":18855.296,"text":"各位數各位數這個是我們現在在面臨的狀況對於那種洗錢大戶我再重申我的立場我深惡痛絕對於洗錢大戶深惡痛絕這些人吃香喝辣搞招待所胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":18857.756,"end":18885.643,"text":"到了海關人還可以放走造成台灣社會多大的動盪甚至有人洗錢洗多少結果搞到後來像在買贖罪券一樣給他還起訴我不點名在台灣社會赫赫有名那個還起訴出來的時候整個社會輿論的評價是什麼因為他很有錢繳錢買贖罪券就把他放掉了"},{"start":18886.567,"end":18908.127,"text":"那不是緩刑欸那是緩起訴欸對於這種洗錢大戶為什麼要客氣哪有違反什麼最值相當的原則我不認為有啦這是為什麼我主張對於這種洗錢大戶基本款就是三年以上有期徒刑以上說明"},{"start":18910.698,"end":18923.105,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召,現在請柯建銘總召請發言第一點先跟副總統表示抱歉,因為他早上就知道就忘記了,太昏頭了我只是記得他講那一句話說浪費時間"},{"start":18927.173,"end":18949.234,"text":"我不是說要攻擊你,坦白講因為早上一直在集中,前面還要找你協商我忘記了,因為太集中,這樣你講起執政黨當成績,這個成績是大家的啦不是執政黨不執政黨,因為大家都一直要做嘛那至於防傷委員所談的問題,因為引起大家討論嘛,那現在已經分為三個層次嘛"},{"start":18950.975,"end":18979.704,"text":"當然早上黃國勛市長一直講到這前置犯罪有罪行比較輕所以有這個問題才會一直在討論那早上後來我誤解說這個犯罪所得是還得了所以有一些誤解因為早上很多法案已經進來你拿了就來那新的版本就在旁邊你來不及看大概是如此都是大家都有的說的沒有什麼特定對象的問題"},{"start":18981.67,"end":18991.725,"text":"那那個防務有沒有心靈還是需要一點時間?你一下有沒有關係啊?等一下已經討論四個多小時了好,可能要請他們準備一下然後印出來才有辦法這樣子"},{"start":18994.028,"end":19004.581,"text":"但是黃總統最後好像他又撤回他的三接論不是啊,我們還是一樣可以進行啊你現在表格送不出來,我就要宣布表格,因為我們已經討論了沒有啦,什麼表格,這張已經有結果"},{"start":19014.272,"end":19032.818,"text":"我怕你喊表決先處理第五條OK那這樣我們等一下我們先處理第五條因為他整個效果都在這裡先處理第五條等一下還有通保法嘛科技偵察法都在嘛我們是照協商臺灣民眾黨黨團有提出來一個修正動議第五條修正動議我們現在在第五條請鐘嘉斌委員說明"},{"start":19045.416,"end":19069.223,"text":"民進黨團的意見他們放在說明、立法說明那上次關於這個NFT的部分就是有委員表達希望能夠把它放進去那麼經過討論之後大家覺得是放在條文說明即可涵蓋在裡面那現在條文說明就在我們的手上的這個修正動議的第二頁的說明欄用紅字表示的部分應該可以吧"},{"start":19070.327,"end":19092.534,"text":"你也可以啊各位黨團幹部如果沒有意見我們第五條復待決議我們就找協商內容通過好嗎?好那我們現在處理三個復待決議回過頭來我們再回到十九條沒有三個復待決議我們提的啦復待決議我們請民進黨黨團提的都建議案而已啦復待決議是到最後因為三點以後才處理的"},{"start":19101.757,"end":19122.771,"text":"非常感謝,我們希望各黨能支持這個附帶決議當然就是補充我們在立法過程當中所看到的一些有些需要強化的地方但是又未達到協助法條的內容那附帶決議一包括的就是電子商務平台及第三方支付那要求要落實執行賣家的KYC這是第一個部分"},{"start":19123.531,"end":19144.556,"text":"這當中要求速發部應該在六個月內針對電子商務平台及第三方住業者去管理研議適當的內控及管理機制那附帶決議二也都是類似附帶決議第二就是關於電商平台那麼因為平台本身本身它作為一個買賣交易構成的一個"},{"start":19146.54,"end":19163.388,"text":"呃﹚角色﹚但是呢﹚他的支付工具啊﹚卻有各種的路徑﹚包括公﹚包括在這個平台上呢﹚也有可能透過﹚第三方的代售代付﹚也有可能透過超商的臨櫃繳款﹚那這些都有些漏﹚漏洞都有些斷點齁﹚所以我們希望說經濟部啊﹚"},{"start":19164.708,"end":19187.65,"text":"初發部應該會同經濟部在六個月內﹐針對這些電商平台的規範﹐包括登錄的機制﹐未完成登錄的撤銷營業登記﹐必須指定納入洗錢防制﹐並督導第三方支付﹐以及對電商平台執行KYC我想今天如果經濟部的代表在﹐應該了解到上次我們相關的會議當中﹐我們有特別針對經濟部這邊提出要求﹐"},{"start":19188.531,"end":19209.938,"text":"第三個負債決議也是接近一樣要求速發部會商、經濟部、金管會及相關部會就六個月內就未完成登錄的處罰以及管制不得及時兌付的部分那什麼叫做管制不得及時兌付呢因為目前在這個電商平台當中的交易它可能是透過超商、零貴、現金"},{"start":19212.259,"end":19236.54,"text":"那這個東西是透過提供的QR Code的條碼來幫你支付但是這個現金在超商通貨上事實上可以做到一定程度的延遲交付以便於事後在去追查的時候可以有效的堵絕現金交付到第三方支付業者手上那有效的幫助被害者能夠追回他們的被詐騙的所得"},{"start":19237.941,"end":19259.891,"text":"那這個部分呢就包含裡面所說的包括交易雙方因買賣雙方因確認交易權利義務值的交付款項還有商品目有意義使得言合理退款等消費者保障以上說明謝謝昭偉宗嘉賓昭偉的補充說明各位其他黨團幹部針對這民進黨所提三附帶決議有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":19261.837,"end":19271.346,"text":"如果沒有話,我們就通過照列。好,謝謝。那我們現在再回到19條,發布的文字還沒有出來。"},{"start":19274.13,"end":19300.869,"text":"跟主席還有各位委員報告因為說實在的要增加第三項照剛剛侯商總召所提出來的我們去比對了之後發現第三項的組織犯罪的那一個條文會長得跟目前的組織犯罪條例是一樣的而且新度也會差不多只差在他的罰金跟這個但書沒有寫上去而已一定要是三上十下"},{"start":19301.81,"end":19319.604,"text":"所以未來在法解釋上面會有什麼問題可能司法院這邊也可以補充所以就是變成說有沒有需要這樣子做我不是覺得說我們尊重大院對於最後一年以上的部分我們尊重大院最後的決定"},{"start":19328.419,"end":19349.416,"text":"如果說修正了以後 那麼那個十九條修正分成三級以後 那個主持的部分跟那個組織犯罪法防制條例第三條第一項的這個刑度完完全全一樣的話 那麼將來可能產生競合的時候要 因為這個情形可能性是蠻大的 那麼可能就要 因為兩個情形完全一樣"},{"start":19351.4,"end":19378.971,"text":"沒關係,那個黃常委稍稍等,因為仲介兵會先舉手麻煩請仲介兵召委,請我想我們了解啦,因為剛剛在聽到這個三級這個設計或許從法律專業要簡潔表達以及考慮到未來的審判實務上可能造成的競合問題或許有些考量但是我們覺得在有些立法上呢我們縱使是重複加以規定那可能的一些不是那麼完美的地方或許可以"},{"start":19379.631,"end":19397.297,"text":"在看司法院這邊代表怎麼說我們覺得我們在表彰的就是我們對於打擊詐欺犯罪當中在洗錢防制法當中我們是有對於對象分級刻意他們應有的制裁那這個部分請司法院在待會"},{"start":19398.557,"end":19422.509,"text":"回應的時候能夠考量到．或者在立法上．從法律專業的角度．有這些競合的考量．但是在表彰政府打擊詐欺的決心．在洗防法當中我們引進了．組織犯罪條例第三條第一項．的這樣的規定．如果沒有太大的後遺症．我是傾向希望我們可以用這個方向上去．去促成了謝謝總裁並召委接下來請黃國璋總召請補充說明"},{"start":19425.976,"end":19452.281,"text":"我剛剛已經說了我們剛剛對於我們修正條文所採取的立場我就不再複述了各位黨團幹部各位列席的閣員跟官員現在我念一下我們立法院黨團協商的結論我們今天協商的主題並按協商一、司法及法制委員會並按審查行政院罕請審議洗錢防制法修正草案"},{"start":19453.261,"end":19476.284,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團凝聚洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案、郭國文十六位委員凝聚洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案．臺灣民眾黨黨團凝聚洗錢防制法部分條文修正案等四案．二、林怡瑾等二十位委員凝聚洗錢防制法修正草案．三、"},{"start":19477.768,"end":19499.834,"text":"蔡易瑜等十六位委員凝聚、洗錢防制法修正草案．四、我們協商結論．一、第五條照協商內容通過、詳如附件．二、第十九條保留、送院會處理．三、第二十四條照行政院提案通過．"},{"start":19501.036,"end":19524.547,"text":"四、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過五、新增附帶決議四項,相如附件六、院會進行處理十、非保留部分宣讀後均與通過保留部分暫保留保留部分院會進行處理前由各黨團推派一人"},{"start":19525.367,"end":19549.176,"text":"一、臺灣民眾黨黨團．民進黨黨團．國民黨黨團順序輪流發言．每人發言時間三分鐘．發言完畢之後．各該保留條文均不再發言．及進行各保留條文的處理．請問各黨團有沒有意見沒有就簽了沒有意見 那我們就簽等一下好不好好 請柯建民總統請說明"},{"start":19551.097,"end":19570.777,"text":"關鍵要有結論的時候,人家說要表決,不是說要公開一塊,好不好?應該剛才有共識了嘛,十九條應該有共識嘛,把方偉恩也放進來嘛。對阿,這個當然最後是重重而已嘛,行徒來一樣還好嘛。"},{"start":19573.658,"end":19581.72,"text":"我剛剛在最後發言的時候我已經說了我們維持我們本來的修正動議一以上、三年以上、四年以下有期徒刑這個是本黨團的立場"},{"start":19596.91,"end":19617.865,"text":"我把你放進來啊,可以啊你講幾句無故大家都說你都沒有意見,然後你又回來說不要我一定要這樣,不可以這樣啦那把你也放進來嘛,變成有三階嘛,就OK啦那宿安也不會有問題吧"},{"start":19620.462,"end":19632.014,"text":"黃珊珊幹事長有寶貴意見嗎?就是如果大家都沒意見就把這個文字錄法就好啦今天是黃氏中青會開會全部姓黃"},{"start":19633.459,"end":19636.002,"text":"我剛剛善意提供一個思考的方向在這整個過程當中討論完我剛剛把"},{"start":19649.542,"end":19674.319,"text":"整個你們當初要修法的立法理由我剛已經唸給我們所有行政院相關部會首長的代表所以我最後的結論是我們維持我們本來所提的就是三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑這是我們今天早上提出來到現在一個字都沒有修正過的修正動議"},{"start":19680.343,"end":19707.863,"text":"剛才有講三階嘛沒有,那他講好了,你現在到最後你又給我回去那這樣我們討論半天幹什麼,我發現兩個都在討論這大家需要有共識才要討論嘛那剛才大家都在這裡聽你講話都很清楚啦那我覺得可以啊那我跟黃志棠還講,剛才還問了我後部,還問了市委員啊那現在大家話可以用話嗎,那是不像嗎那不是這樣嘛"},{"start":19711.435,"end":19714.877,"text":"一早就開會就講這樣就好了,大家互談了半天嘛"},{"start":19730.928,"end":19731.308,"text":"各種招募﹖"},{"start":19752.825,"end":19755.928,"text":"七百場協商不是每次都順?反正到時候再溝通"},{"start":19790.891,"end":19807.36,"text":"請問主席還是要課真法?那休息五分鐘課真法是不是金管會有沒有要參與?有些沒有要參與的機關代表可能先離開?有有有,他有留那個銀行訊息好,謝謝大家,謝謝,休息五分鐘"},{"start":19818.202,"end":19845.412,"text":"只要不屬於下一案的就可以先離開啦 是不是 先宣告一下只要是不屬於下一案的機關代表就可以先離開啊柯真還有通寶嘛 對不對那讓縣長宣告不屬於下面兩案的機關代表可以先離開這樣就可以了 他們自己會判斷啦有關的話就不能走啊"},{"start":19846.755,"end":19849.269,"text":"NCC怎麼趕走那個通訊保障一定有他"},{"start":20086.225,"end":20086.245,"text":"對的"},{"start":20609.57,"end":20626.434,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部、各位列席的閣員跟官員。現在有幾位調整的列席官員,我把他報告一下。交通部民用航空局遙控無人機工作小組,耿執行秘書,謝謝啊。髮型一模一樣啊。"},{"start":20628.407,"end":20632.629,"text":"海洋委員會海巡署情報組黃組長﹖歡迎﹖個人資料保護委員會籌備處嚴科長﹖國防部法律事務司法紀調查王處長﹖"},{"start":20653.686,"end":20680.104,"text":"其他還有法務部的司法院的都是一樣我們就不再重複了各位黨團幹部、各位各院官員我們現在開始進入科技偵察及保護法草案本案司法及法治委員會審查行政院提案審查情況跟各位黨團幹部報告審查案一百一三年六月五日審查完畢審查結果名稱第一條之第十一條軍照行政院提案通過"},{"start":20681.646,"end":20703.525,"text":"並決議．院會討論前需交由黨團協商另外．院會將蔡依瑜等十七位委員．林怡瑾等二十一位委員提案近乎二讀與相關提案並且協商協商情況．跟各位黨團幹部報告民進黨團於六月二十八日召集協商．由鍾嘉斌召集委員主持有關"},{"start":20705.765,"end":20732.674,"text":"有關科技偵察手段及程序之規範究竟採用本案制定之專法或於刑事訴訟法本日協商會議議事由第二案定定專章之立法政策選擇各方有不同意見現在請黨團代表表示意見中嘉賓召委請先說明沒有啦因為這次協商沒有到啦"},{"start":20734.795,"end":20761.383,"text":"那請吳宗憲召委請說明那宗憲來賓召委請準備好 謝謝主席我們主張科技偵查的部分應該在刑事訴訟法裡面列入專章而不是另立專法那主要我們考量的是第一個人權的保障那科技偵查必須兼顧人權保障我們認為說交給司法院他比較能夠確保一個橫頻第二個是證據能力的部分"},{"start":20761.783,"end":20783.105,"text":"二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四"},{"start":20784.195,"end":20804.589,"text":"二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四"},{"start":20805.811,"end":20821.492,"text":"應該要由司法院來主責去認定這個證據到底可不可以用而不是說單純一個因為科技的變化日新月異所以我們應該要由法務部來管理會比較好這一點我們不太能接受而且"},{"start":20822.213,"end":20851.413,"text":"也不可以說因為司法院的態度被動修刑事訴訟法很困難所以這個理由我覺得民眾也沒有辦法接受雖然說這個也是我目前看到的實際狀況就是刑事訴訟法在修正的時候有關檢察官的部分司法院是連理都不想理那會確實造成檢方在施用很多法律的時候他那個法條都有一點過度落後但這是司法院應該要負的責任而不是"},{"start":20852.635,"end":20856.088,"text":"必須定科偵法專法的這個理由"},{"start":20858.807,"end":20884.027,"text":"那再來就是行事訴訟法有關強制處分的手段跟科技偵察的法制那如果標準不依舊有操作上的混亂跟困難因為目前搜索、扣押等等也都是定在行事訴訟法裡面那科技偵察也是在輔助搜索跟扣押的相關事宜那如果說搜索跟扣押定在行事訴訟法但是科技偵察又要另定專法"},{"start":20885.248,"end":20911.083,"text":"那這個也很奇怪,你們應該是像仿照德國一樣就直接把它定在刑事訴訟法裡面那我們應該請求的是司法院真的要負起責任而不是說另立專法由法務部來處理那司法院既然主責,那我們也應該是要由司法院來負責訓練讓陳審法官對於這個科技偵察的概念能夠跟上時代"},{"start":20911.903,"end":20929.546,"text":"二、數位資訊的保存、監管及監督機制不應該由偵查單位負責就跟羈押、搜索、扣押一樣因為已經是屬於侵害人民權利的手段了尤其是最近有那個"},{"start":20931.708,"end":20953.31,"text":"民眾常常在討論王毅川的言論,類似這種東西其實民眾都是很在乎資訊的隱私、定位資訊或是GPS或M化車的使用那這些權利上面也不宜全部由檢方自己來調查、自己來保管、自己來監控我們覺得還是要"},{"start":20954.071,"end":20975.658,"text":"由司法院也能夠進來．讓他有足夠的法治授權．這個會比較好．如果保存是偵察機關．監督也是偵察機關．那就毫無監督可言了．所以我們還是覺得由司法院來主責．建立一個監督機制會更好．我們是希望．我們把發動的門檻．"},{"start":20981.07,"end":21005.28,"text":"還有程序的監督以及司法的救濟我們都把它完整的建置起來在刑事訴訟法內而不是有專法讓法務部就專法去立法跟控管不然就是變得有點頭痛一頭腳痛一腳那有刑事訴訟法做根本的管理這才比較好這以上是我們的想法謝謝吳宗憲召委的說明接下來請宗嘉賓召委請說明"},{"start":21006.3,"end":21026.095,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那麼跟各黨團代表說明還有與會的列席機關代表本來這個《刑事訴訟法》跟《科技偵察法》在我們立法體力上從委員會審查的時候就一直有立法體力的討論那我想這個之間也跟我們吳宗憲召委保持一個良好的溝通也就是說我們那時候在委員會期間"},{"start":21027.496,"end":21054.799,"text":"各自就科技偵察法以及刑事訴訟法進行討論在委會也經過充分的交換意見事實上為了節省我們討論的資源起見我大概相同的部分我就不再多提但是只是略略的說明一下不管是在GPS還是煙化車還是熱顯像的部分分別在兩個立法例的版本當中都通過相當多的討論也獲知了一定程度的共識只是在最後這個部分有一個新增的部分"},{"start":21055.299,"end":21072.684,"text":"就是大家對於實施調查機關會不會違法實施調查是不是應該克責這個部分產生了一個有必要性的徵定因此在之後就像今天我們看到手上這一份就是由民進黨團提出的科技偵察及保障法草案的修正動議重點說明"},{"start":21074.781,"end":21095.089,"text":"這個部分我們看到有第二案這個第二案檢要的內容我說明一下我們增列了第十一條、十二條、十三條、十四條這四個條文是在原來委員會審查的時候它並不具備的為什麼要增加這個就是說第十一條我們增訂違法實施調查之法則"},{"start":21096.549,"end":21104.555,"text":"那這當中我簡單說包括第一項如果違法時是第二條、第三條、第四條也就是GPS、文化、車跟熱險項之刑責我們要訂進去了那麼第二項我們認為實行或協助執行調查之公務員或從業人員要加重刑責"},{"start":21114.503,"end":21141.188,"text":"必免我們這個給予的犯罪偵察者．給予他較佳的科技調查工具．他卻濫用．那第三項．如果意圖盈利而犯之者．那加重其刑之二分之一．也就是說避免具有執法公務能力者．他圖失利來犯這樣的一個罪．那第十二條我們徵定了．無故洩漏或交付違法實施調查所得資料之刑責．因為我們．"},{"start":21144.011,"end":21170.977,"text":"違法交付違法實施調查的因為有時候違法實施調查的這個內容其實是不能夠再外洩的那麼最這個部分我們仿照通訪法的架構分別定了兩項明之為違法實施調查所得的資料不能無故洩漏或再交付那第二項一樣意圖盈利而犯之等加重其刑之二分之一那我們在增列第十三條也增定了無故洩漏或交付合法實施調查所得資料之行者把它區分兩項"},{"start":21171.937,"end":21197.933,"text":"一、違法實施調查所得的資料不能無故洩露或交付就算你是合法實施調查所得的資料有些犯罪偵訪人員實施合法調查取得的資料外洩或交付這一樣要刻以刑責最後我們增加了一個告訴乃論條款因為這個不管是十一條、十二條還是十三條非公務員及非盈利犯之者"},{"start":21198.473,"end":21227.267,"text":"即是說有些他並不是具有公務身份也不是就為了要來營利那這種情況之下我們提供給受害者他可以用告訴乃論的條款那我這樣說明到這裡為什麼要強調到此為止會對立法例造成一個很根本的問題因為刑事訴訟法它是一個程序法那要去徵定這些刑責罰則有一個兩個上的困難第一因為目前刑事訴訟法的條文以送"},{"start":21228.345,"end":21249.026,"text":"委員會送修的條文當中沒有可以附著這些的因為這些法則都在刑法當中但是因為科技偵察法它是一個新創法那新創法原來的條文內容我們可以再增加新的條次這不影響到我們新立法的一個原則所以考量到審查到中途發現我們原來的"},{"start":21250.047,"end":21275.114,"text":"內容相反體力不同但是在增加了這些罰則之後勢必要以專法的方式再配合這次新創法的方式來以附加不然的話如果以修法的方式的話就沒有辦法滿足這個需求所以在這裡請求我們各黨團的代表能理解如果大家肯認我們目前爭議的這次條文是有必要防度我們給予犯罪偵訪者科技偵訪的工具但又為了防度他濫用"},{"start":21279.315,"end":21304.425,"text":"我們要科以它一定的課則那因此要增訂的這四個條文唯有在科偵法當中才有辦法在本次的會席當中完成立法那麼這涉及到我們立法的效能跟效率那在這裡請求我們可以從立法例上回覆到我們要以課則的部分來考量以科技偵察法專法來立法為優先謝謝鍾嘉賓召委的說明接下來請台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召請發言"},{"start":21306.912,"end":21313.346,"text":"第一個在立法的體力上面我們目前現在所採行或者是說在委員會裡面討論"},{"start":21315.069,"end":21341.006,"text":"那的所謂的科技偵察的手段其實說到底從跟外國的立法例相比的話事實上這次過得非常的少這兩個啦一個是GPS一個是M花車沒有其他的了沒有其他的就GPS跟M花車在只有這兩種科技偵察手段的情況之下事實上它本身的量能"},{"start":21341.866,"end":21361.76,"text":"就沒有辦法也沒有必要去支撐透過一個專法來加以處理所以我們一開始在針對這整個法案進行研擬的時候基本上是仿德國的立法力有關於科技偵察的手段他們本來就是都放在刑事訴訟法當中這個在委員會討論都有歷經過的"},{"start":21364.862,"end":21382.853,"text":"至於說就增加特別罰則的部分在這次再修正動議提出來透過像在通訊監察保障法的部分仿那樣子的立法例在這邊去加罰則但我要說的事情是刑事訴訟法針對有關於"},{"start":21384.614,"end":21402.241,"text":"我們在進行強制處分的手段．本來就是在調和人權保障跟發現真實．透過立法者在刑事訴訟法裡面的授權．讓我們的執法者可以採行特定的偵查手段．"},{"start":21404.318,"end":21419.365,"text":"根據刑事訴訟法的規定才行特定的偵查手段才可以去排除在這個過程裡面對於各式各樣不同的法役在這個過程當中所可能造成的侵害的處罰"},{"start":21420.444,"end":21438.233,"text":"要不然就會出現我們之前用GPS結果還是有人因此而被判刑這樣子的一個結果那因此在整個立法的體力上面就針對有關於各式各樣強制處分的手段它本來就應該要規範在刑事訴訟法當中"},{"start":21441.354,"end":21454.762,"text":"規範在刑事訴訟法當中因為有刑事訴訟法的授權第一個你不用去擔心會因為法益的侵害而去觸犯刑法相關的條文那第二個因此而取得的證據才會有證據能力"},{"start":21456.403,"end":21471.195,"text":"那把它放在刑事訴訟法當中．如果違反了這個法定的程序．依照你所侵害的法意．本來就回到刑法．目前我們在法意保障的體系當中．"},{"start":21474.537,"end":21500.106,"text":"對與各相關的行為所應該科於的刑罰處罰到目前為止整個體力全部都是這個樣子那你如果說是以要增加新的罰則的方式當成是立特別法的理由的話其實上次在論壇裡面非常多共同參與的法界大家共同的一致是會不斷的造成我們的特別法肥大化"},{"start":21501.027,"end":21515.208,"text":"這樣子的一個問題跟現實上面的狀況那第二個會讓整個刑事訴訟有關於強制偵查手段的部分變得極度的破碎變得極度的破碎那因此"},{"start":21516.449,"end":21539.369,"text":"贊成放在刑事訴訟法裏面那放在刑事訴訟法裏面如果沒有踐行法定的程序就如同現在在刑事訴訟法裏面你如果沒有踐行法定的程序去採取一定的作為的話我們也不是立什麼特別法去處理針對各式各樣不同的強制處分的作為違反了這個、違反了這個、違反了這個、違反了這個"},{"start":21542.652,"end":21569.117,"text":"會有什麼樣子用特別法的方式立了處罰你就回到刑法的體力當中針對你違法採取的作為所相對應侵害的法益來加以處罰那因此我們認為這比較好的立法的體力還是把它維持在刑事訴訟法當中那至於說如果違反了刑事訴訟法所授權的法定偵查手段"},{"start":21569.757,"end":21591.633,"text":"而造成了個人、各式各樣不同的法意侵害的話﹐這個時候回到刑法﹐本來我們針對各式各樣不同法意的侵害﹐不管是資訊﹐或者是隱私權﹐個別法意的侵害﹐回到那個法條﹐來予以論斷﹐就可以了﹐以上這個是我們的基本立場"},{"start":21593.733,"end":21614.695,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召的補充說明,我們現在請柯建民總召發言,請吳政憲請準備吳宗憲委員請準備院長各位同仁,這個當然牽涉到我想不只是立法政策的選擇啦,我知道反正習近平是比較德國的,德國實際上是有很完整的專章,我知道"},{"start":21616.231,"end":21627.641,"text":"吳宗憲委員或黃宗偉就不外乎把法務部的科技偵察法裡面有關於GPS和煙火車就不能就不能抄進來吧那"},{"start":21628.584,"end":21651.387,"text":"我要講的是一件事情就是說剛才黃國昌委員所講的要徵紀律當然所以我們要立這個法因為過去在法院被判沒有徵紀律因為沒有立法完成嘛那本條不是本法不是只有GPS啊M法車啊當然還有內影像的問題嘛那過去有木馬小木馬的問題後來拿掉了嘛"},{"start":21652.248,"end":21677.568,"text":"而內政察的部分也拿掉了,我不知道這內政察的部分在法國常委員版本是我還有基本上他就從法國黑政黨搬過來嘛那不是說德國立法院這樣我們一定要這樣做啦我看我就說因為剛才中間那位委員談得很清楚,這裡面有罰則出現的所以只要十一條、十二條、十三條那還有過程要件"},{"start":21679.161,"end":21704.517,"text":"所以這個已經不是刑事訴訟的問題而已啦刑事訴訟不可能有罰則嘛然後還有過程要件有時候有四條嘛所以我的看法就是說應該大家回到一個比較理性我們在打到司法裡面科技偵察法已經講好多年大家一聽就知道這個打詐因為刑事訴訟法大家聽不懂況且現在我們要回到刑事訴訟法也有程度上困難的這是第一點"},{"start":21706.418,"end":21733.699,"text":"我看我就說有關刑事訴訟法的部分我當時比較贊成有關大法案四十二六四有關歷史的筆記前的那一部分在那部分我們來處理是可以的把它拆開來的所以刑事我們處理歷史筆記前的部分那這個部分有關於科技偵察的我們應該放在刑事處因為回到科技偵察的主題方委這個是將來法務部在用的嘛法務部做清楚嘛那"},{"start":21734.838,"end":21738.982,"text":"謝謝柯建民總召的發言接下來請吳宗憲委員發言、莊瑞泉委員請準備再下來就是法務部跟司法院"},{"start":21759.441,"end":21781.476,"text":"謝謝主席有關這個部分到底應該修在刑事訴訟法還是另訂專法其實民進黨之前的版本也是在刑事訴訟法那後來對後來他當然改變想法嘛那改變想法的做法他就是加了一些刑責在裡面然後讓他變成沒有辦法修在刑事訴訟法裡面但我覺得這個是沒有意義的因為"},{"start":21782.697,"end":21811.003,"text":"我們只要回過頭去想一下當年海巡署在裝GPS的時候這個行為被法院的判刑也是回歸到刑法上面的適用所以根本不需要我們另立一個專法只是為了塞刑責進去我現在反而是覺得你好像是為了另立專法而搞一個刑責在這裡只是為了把它變成專法仿通保法的概念但是事實上沒有這個必要"},{"start":21811.443,"end":21832.21,"text":"那之前那個林三田教授他也是批評過我們台灣變成是一個特別法肥大政的地方我們把整個法律體系弄得非常的混亂那這段時間我跟法務部的同仁有談過其實他們唯一擔心的就是我剛說的他認為說因為目前訴訟法是由司法院主責"},{"start":21834.151,"end":21858.936,"text":"實體法有法務部．所以他們擔心科徵．修下去之後．會不會將來司法院就不甩．不甩科技的進步．那這個部分我覺得不能當作是．我要另立專法的理由．而是說．我們應該是要求司法院．你必須跟著時代進步去修刑事訴訟法．而不是說．這個不是我司法院用．是法務部用的．那我就修法我都懶得理你．這個是你．"},{"start":21861.477,"end":21886.796,"text":"你怎麼講就是你司法院的怠惰不能當作另立這個專法的理由所以我覺得還是應該是這樣就是有關搜索扣押這一類的概念我們還是把它放在刑事訴訟法裡面至於說違反而造成人民的侵害那就回歸到實體法由刑法或是相關法律下去處理應該是這樣才符合我不要不是說"},{"start":21887.757,"end":21888.278,"text":"二、研商有關"},{"start":21907.293,"end":21935.024,"text":"事用法律這一塊我過去二十年我很熟悉你法制越混亂你會造成第一線的執法人員越辛苦好 以上謝謝謝謝吳宗憲委員的補充接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言請法務部準備好 謝謝院長那其實這個是在我們事要法制委員會裡面大家也都知道討論這部法律的時候法務部本來送到行政院的時候其實根本就不是程序法它裡面當初還有小木馬"},{"start":21936.701,"end":21944.197,"text":"這個我們當初都把它否決掉了我在審這部法律的時候啊我是從頭反對到尾啦所以到最後我們一直在修訂嘛"},{"start":21945.18,"end":21966.279,"text":"對不對 你說針對那個你那個GPS那個我也反對阿我就說後來我們就說 欸要符合人權嘛我們要朝人家的行政委員從善如流了所以也有把它區分成對被告犯罪嫌疑人也有第三人 這個就出來了所以這個我就可以認同啦那你到第二個的問題說M化車的時候那當初我也反對阿我就說你要去發動你還是要區分阿阿不然我跟韓國瑜院長在一起"},{"start":21970.222,"end":21974.505,"text":"人家明明要鎖定你 我有要說 我也一起被鎖定進去了所以你要去做一個區分那後來就變成說我們對被告或者犯罪嫌疑人你有相當理由和可信那第三者的話你就變成要有事實跟主任與被告、犯罪嫌疑人或者證人或者說你要扣押物有關聯的部分我們嚴格這樣就做區分了"},{"start":21992.394,"end":22011.085,"text":"這個對人權就有保障了所以我們就慢慢的就覺得法國部這個是有道理的後來其實倒也不是只有這兩樣我覺得爭議最大的當初我再提出來就是說你那個用偷拍的方式這個家我都一直覺得是人民最後避難的一個堡壘你不能輕易去拍它"},{"start":22013.653,"end":22037.147,"text":"後來我們就去加了好多要件我說我們要抄德國可以我們要把人家抄清楚就變成說你誰去弄熱血像這個部分你說對被告犯罪嫌疑人你要有一個理由相當讓人家外人看起來是或在檢驗你說你這樣子拍是可以的但是你說對第三人的部分這個部分你對室內的一個調查這個射程"},{"start":22040.28,"end":22049.705,"text":"這個都要非常小心我到最後認為是說我們那個二十四小時的部分是不是真的是只要沒有超過二十四小時真的就是隨便人家我們當初考慮到是每一個條文道本來在程序法裡面"},{"start":22056.357,"end":22060.779,"text":"是不是要規定在刑事訴訟法其實規定在那邊也有它的道理但問題是整部你們提出來以後你們根本就不是要程序法嘛你們本來在規定的部分裡面就有好多東西在裡面後來我們一直認為說本來上次提出來的時候後面是有對公務人員的處罰"},{"start":22079.068,"end":22090.29,"text":"後來我就跟柯永超講說不見了新的法怎麼對公務人員的部分給你新的武器那你到最後怎麼變成把對公務人員萬一你違法的話這個刑責處罰的規定給拿掉了所以我們就覺得說你本來這個就不是完全的程序法你也要把它給放進去所以也從善如流了所以我反而會覺得這整部法令來看的話"},{"start":22102.313,"end":22130.353,"text":"各自有它的一個道理可是從委員會到現在其實讓整個這一部科證法裡面的修法已經更趨於保障人權了這個我倒是可以接受那是不是請法務部這個地方也再次的做一個說明你們現在我看爭執的重點就只剩在剩下是不是要在程序法裡面在刑事訴訟法裡面出規定而已那可是我也會必須要再提出來"},{"start":22131.013,"end":22133.035,"text":"那如果照這樣講的話那通報呢?也會碰到吳宗憲委員你剛剛所提到的問題一樣的道理在以上提供大家來這個共同來討論謝謝莊銳雄委員的發言接下來請法務部請黃市長請"},{"start":22148.16,"end":22162.719,"text":"好,謝謝主席跟各位委員那我想法務部這邊在司法院前面講話先跟司法院抱歉因為剛才吳宗憲委員也幫我們講了很多次那為什麼這個法最後還是由法務部這邊來提出"},{"start":22164.261,"end":22192.596,"text":"那也確實誠如委員剛剛所提到的是因為這個主動權如果是要修刑事訴訟法的話主動權隨時在我們現行制度裡面並不在法務部的手上那也不會因為它規定在刑事訴訟法裡面未來這個事情就由司法院主責事實上所有的事情是偵查中檢方要做的事情還是由檢方來負責不會因為定在刑事訴訟裡面就變成是他們的事"},{"start":22193.416,"end":22220.687,"text":"那剛剛專選委員也有提到事實上廣義的刑事訴訟程序相關的法律我們如果不是講這個狹義的刑事訴訟法這個法典的話事實上已經有專法的潛力了包含剛剛有提到的通訊保障及監察法提審法、羈押法、國民法官法還有刑事妥肅審理法也就是說事實上這個刑事上是單獨一個法律還是定在"},{"start":22221.807,"end":22238.652,"text":"統合性的《刑事故障法典》裏面這是一個形式的問題實質上關於證據能力是不是要法官保留以及法官對於偵察行為有沒有辦法做監督事實上就是看具體的法條文字都可以訂定譬如說就以這個《通訊保障及監察法》來講"},{"start":22240.272,"end":22257.68,"text":"這裏面依照通保法的規定執行監聽、調取相關的紀錄這些東西未來在刑事訴訟過程中能不能夠成為證據有沒有證據能力也不會因為它定在通保法而不是定在刑事訴訟法而有任何的差異所以法務要說其實還是一個相當實際的問題"},{"start":22263.482,"end":22283.179,"text":"也就是說可能刑事訴訟法相關的法學者他們在比較各國立法律跟他們的這個可以說是有一點美學性的思維上面他們會認為體力上應該有一定的要求但是其實以實務、實用的角度來看法務部這邊的立場還是要懇請大院"},{"start":22284.12,"end":22301.98,"text":"來支持由法務部這一邊來訂單訂定的過程中關於人權保障以及法官、法院的這些令狀、制度等等的我們一定會在相關的法條裡面跟充分的溝通然後達到保障和人權的效果另外補充說明"},{"start":22303.922,"end":22319.053,"text":"因為針對這個6月28號這個委員會協商的時候所提出來徵定的這一些這個科證法的行則它的背景是這樣第一個就誠如剛才中央選委所提到的在"},{"start":22321.014,"end":22335.043,"text":"應該是五、六年前法務部曾經就一版的科技偵察法曾經預告過那時候在社會上引起巨量大波了包含大木馬、小木馬通通都有在裡面那一版的科證法其實就有罰則的規定了"},{"start":22336.104,"end":22356.239,"text":"也就是說法務部一開始在研擬規劃這個法律的時候他就不是一個單純的刑事程序法的這個角度在擬定那當然因為那一次的法令在社會上引起很多的討論有很多不同的意見所以這個法務部在重新的研擬跟思考之後決定以"},{"start":22356.92,"end":22357.16,"text":"二、研商有關"},{"start":22375.229,"end":22397.627,"text":"相關的有爭議的部分把它拿掉也同時因為它看起來都更像一個程序法了所以我們這一次院版本來的版本才把相關的法則拿掉但是送到立法院來之後在整個討論的過程仍然收到質疑所以我們才模仿通保法的體力通保法其實也有這些相關的針對違法來取證違法來執行強制處分的這些相關的規定也有"},{"start":22403.672,"end":22427.174,"text":"法法則那這邊比較補充說明的是在科證法或通訪法訂定這些法則跟剛才結構委員所提到的回歸現行的刑法的法律去保護它會有構成要件相應的問題也就是說如果我們在這一部特別法裡面就有訂定假設相關的公務員、執法人員違法或是限密"},{"start":22427.794,"end":22442.748,"text":"那麼他的構成要件就是跟他這個行為有關而已但是如果回歸到刑法不管是315之一或是318、318之一等等的要件他都還會有限於他人非公開活動、言論談話、身體實施部分等等"},{"start":22443.729,"end":22463.548,"text":"二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四"},{"start":22464.329,"end":22480.586,"text":"依照我們這個版本那麼當然坊間也有很多的學術專家其實誠如剛才這個委員所提到覺得我們這一次科技偵察的引進的外國立法力還不夠還認為應該要把之前我們所講的包含小木馬大木馬"},{"start":22481.967,"end":22502.335,"text":"這些對於打擊犯罪非常關鍵的這些工具也要來引進那如果是這樣的話我們等待社會討論時機更為成熟我們會希望以專法的形式外來法務部才會有修法的主動權可以再來精進再來這個跟社會來加強我們的犯罪政策那以上說明了感謝您的支持謝謝"},{"start":22504.198,"end":22527.074,"text":"謝謝法務部黃次長的說明接下來請司法院明明胡被打了好幾拳請黃副秘書長加油請說明主席各位委員好剛才其實黃次長也說明過了為什麼我們司法院也會支持說用定科技偵查跟保障的專法首先我要澄清一點"},{"start":22529.776,"end":22547.661,"text":"其實我們的體制上面關於屬於訴訟程序甚至證據方面用特別法的情形除了剛才所講的早就這個不是第一例之前通保法甚至那個DNA條例都是如此的那今天如果只是為了說證據能力然後要定在訴訟法裡面定在特別法裡面就會擔心那個證據能力問題我想這個是比較多慮了不管是特別法那法官一定都會遵守的"},{"start":22557.344,"end":22563.227,"text":"至於說可能擔心說要定在刑事訴訟法底下才擔心不會被授仇我想應該也不會有這種情形法官們在適用法律的時候只要是國會通過的法律不管是一般法、特別法都是如此為什麼我們認為說定在刑事訴訟法底下"},{"start":22579.656,"end":22596.455,"text":"並不是很符合需要,並不是說我們要澄清,並不是說所謂司法院比較保守跟被動的這個問題,因為大家知道刑事訴訟法三、四百條,那裡面加那個條文的時候,我們每次修刑事訴訟法,都坦白講動議法"},{"start":22598.137,"end":22602.119,"text":"這一法動全身啦,動全身,所以比較少說只為一條去動刑事訴訟法,因為你要動刑事訴訟法就牽涉到了非常多所以跟各位委員報告,即使是涉案主法的法律裡面,涉及到特殊訴訟、特殊證據的時候,我們也傾向用專法所以各位可以看那個智慧財產案件審理法,其實它就是屬於民事訴訟刑事訴訟法的特別法,為什麼?"},{"start":22623.348,"end":22628.592,"text":"因為它如果定在民事訴訟法裡面直接修的時候,我們將來去修這個法都比較不方便所以用專法的時候可以符合它的需要,與時俱進今天你要動這個的時候,你不需要牽涉到訴訟法的其他條文,直接去動就好那誠如剛才黃委員所說的"},{"start":22643.681,"end":22659.786,"text":"今天所謂說我們訂這個專法 那麼大家也像我們中委員講將來才能夠除了這個證據方面 證據能力方面以外你也可以一併去思考說它有沒有涉及到這個違反的時候會有刑事責任甚至民事責任的問題 那剛才"},{"start":22666.128,"end":22672.493,"text":"黃國昌委員也有指教啦那這個依照法律的保護你就可以回到刑法跟民法去但是說實話齁這個要轉了好幾萬啦轉了好幾萬而且我們知道齁今天到底他保護的是什麼法律你到民法跟刑法裡面去的時候還講不是都非常的清楚他走過去被遭到遭到的東西沒有通知他到底侵害什麼法律我要告損害賠償我要告哪一條"},{"start":22693.57,"end":22707.256,"text":"二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四"},{"start":22714.039,"end":22731.358,"text":"因此衍生的不管刑事責任、民事責任你都可以做一個與時俱進的這個規定那麼隨著這樣這個科技的發展非常的快你今天隨著時間的改變的時候像剛才黃國昌委員講的目前只訂兩項但是大家都講還有很多今天講的是訂在刑事訴訟法我們要修的時候它像是一個"},{"start":22735.828,"end":22736.048,"text":"二、研商有關"},{"start":22766.048,"end":22783.455,"text":"坦白講司法是很穩健,他要動的時候會整個訴訟法一起去動,而不會只動這兩個條文,所以這一點要跟各位講的,而且不管說各位所提到的說相關這些保管使用這些東西,你幾乎不太可能在訴訟法裡面去訂定說這些資料要如何保管,那除了法以外還有一個很重要的,"},{"start":22788.877,"end":22798.803,"text":"今天你法定了以後你後續還有很多的那些行政後續的法規命令跟行政規則那我們主管行事訴訟法、民事訴訟法那後續的這些行政規則只針對這些東西定行政規則對我們來講也並不是那麼的方法我們只會定行事訴訟法的執法我們不太會去定行事訴訟法哪一個條文的這個執法"},{"start":22812.25,"end":22832.365,"text":"這個並不是那麼容易做（那由法務部針對這一個特別法（它訂定授權的這些執法（可以符合需要（而且可以與時俱進（隨時需要、隨時去修（這才比較符合（符合一個法制上面的一個常規（而且更何況（我們目前的相關的這些（包含剛才所講的這些特別法（都是如此體力（那德國雖然是一種思維（"},{"start":22833.306,"end":22855.851,"text":"但是德國市委也不是比較法上通律我們看到非常多的國家都是用特別法案去訂的這邊也跟各位做一個報告所以就結論上面來講我們並不是說保守或者是但是我們認為符合國家的需要其實是一個特別的這個科技偵察保障法才符合大家需要以上報告謝謝黃副民主黨的說明接下來柯建民總召請發言剛剛法務部辦事委員大家都講得很清楚"},{"start":22864.293,"end":22887.047,"text":"我在這裡講說科技偵察法在出現的時候是在兩、三年前那時候大家說這個科技偵察法來不得了東廠但現在因為打詐大家都主張要趕快立法都趕快立科技偵察法打詐釋法這是外來形勢改變的情形"},{"start":22888.311,"end":22907.696,"text":"那時候林英雄教授就說科技政法本來就要趕快立啊,因為你沒有立,保護照常在用嘛,他照常N法車、GPS照常在用嘛所以你們跟這個要把立法立清楚,否則的話會造成將來懷疑的爭執力不足嘛,所以這個是很實際的問題"},{"start":22909.176,"end":22926.024,"text":"那林英雄就是我也跟他很熟他主張是換來的那是劉德的嘛他刑事訴訟法可是德國刑事訴訟法他是為這個是寫得很完整的一個章節那今天我們要回頭過來看就是說"},{"start":22927.366,"end":22942.892,"text":"我現在在談的所謂的道理要在哪一個地方齒理而論這個是延遲大家一個爭執我剛才的結論就是說假如說歷史的比喻淺那個部分讓我們刑署趕快修修到關二六十那部分也可以處理"},{"start":22943.812,"end":22972.051,"text":"但現在的科技偵察法和送來的上議員的法都改變很多以前有這個木馬兩年以後不管小木馬、大木馬反正木馬都是很恐怖的事情但是兩年以後才能做得到所以那個拿掉了那我們也把任意偵察也拿掉了那我要講的就是說進來以後,國民黨內部衝突很大因為"},{"start":22973.106,"end":22997.311,"text":"那中央衛生局委員包括我們中央衛生局委員、我們民進黨黨團內部為了這個討論很多次因為中央衛生局委員他們覺得這個法當然中央衛生局委員有講過那你要欺負被告和嫌疑人有什麼不一樣所以他在六條第三條都有欺負那第四條都有欺負然後他要講說你欺騙什麼莊莊"},{"start":22999.741,"end":23010.391,"text":"那不是告訴當事人雖然這個是有令狀但是到最後還是要告訴當事人但是我要告訴當事人那我們一般的令狀怎麼走就這樣怎麼走"},{"start":23013.451,"end":23029.379,"text":"然後再增加四個,十一、十二、十三、十四範圍過程要件,又有罰則了。這整個已經和我們大家一開始進來大家有爭執的情況已經完全改變了。"},{"start":23030.419,"end":23054.214,"text":"那整個法已經是完全改變了我們提出版本提出版本所以和原始的完全是不一樣的樣態所以我比較還是認為我們過去審討很多特別法、訴訟法等等都是我們都經過了嘛所以這整個刑事樣態和一開始活過送來的版本已經完全不一樣在這種情況底下我們認為要有完整的"},{"start":23055.435,"end":23075.717,"text":"人權保障及對可以倖免的刑責等這些都是重新增加的版本所以情況是不太一樣所以還是拜託有關於刑事我們可以處理歷史比喻前我想那個部分比較單純"},{"start":23077.138,"end":23093.886,"text":"這個還是回到科技偵察法．將來打仗都是科技偵察法．已經講好多了 大家都不知道打仗是科技偵察法．要把刑事訴訟法出來 不然我才聽不懂．而且內容也沒有辦法塞進去了 已經失去那個原來可以調整的空間了"},{"start":23095.863,"end":23111.329,"text":"謝謝柯定平總裁 接下來請林思明委員請表達意見我想這部法律我個人還是認為說定在刑事訴訟法不要符合立法的體力我想我們刑事訴訟的進行檢察官他是負責舉證"},{"start":23113.61,"end":23127.386,"text":"那檢察官舉出來的證據到底有沒有證據能力這部分是由我們法院來審認法院來認定那今天我們要針對科技方法來偵查犯罪這些科技偵查方法"},{"start":23128.767,"end":23156.278,"text":"到底有沒有證據能力當然我們認為這個就是由法院來主責會比較合適所以這部法律把它由法院來主責我們認為定在刑事訴訟法是比較OK的其實我想我從實務面再來做提供大家一些意見其實各位我想不知道莊烈雄或者朱獻我們考過的司法官或者檢察官、律師的都知道今天很多的科目都是考試為導向的"},{"start":23157.719,"end":23173.762,"text":"如果今天我把它定在科偵法﹖未來律師檢察官﹖或者法官﹖因為考試沒有考這個科目﹖除非你未來那個考試員曾江蘇要考科偵法﹖我把它定在專法裡面﹖那刑事訴訟法是必考的﹖"},{"start":23174.483,"end":23189.249,"text":"所以你定在刑訴法我想大家就一定會對於科技偵察的相關的手段我們會非常熟悉這些考生會非常熟悉你以後考上了你也對這些偵察的手段會非常的熟悉如果你是定在專法因為不考"},{"start":23190.109,"end":23218.149,"text":"不考大家就不會唸阿這是很實在的阿 這很實際的阿對 所以說我是更認為說這個把它定在刑訴法因為從各種情況來看沒有有正導向我跟你講就是說這個是等於說是我們法律人必備的一個工具你要成為司法官成為律師必備的工具阿你要對這些科技偵察手段你要了解你要知道那個搜索扣押以及用科技方法怎麼樣來偵查"},{"start":23219.15,"end":23243.801,"text":"才不會構成違法這你要都要非常熟悉所以我個人是建議我想司法院這幾個條也沒有很多把它定在刑訴法裡面我認為並沒有什麼有何罕格不足之處至於說這些相關的法則我想我們國昌剛才講很清楚其實我們的法制已經足備了各種法律的保障其實我們去把它含釋進去絕對是OK的"},{"start":23245.202,"end":23254.107,"text":"不會說因為要訂專法而特別的又去把這個很細的東西把它訂在專法裡面我想我們實際上可以喊捨了以上 謝謝"},{"start":23270.483,"end":23294.669,"text":"請莊瑞雄委員發言我剛聽了林委員這樣的一個講法啦齁 這個當然有點不是說完全沒有道理啦 這個是站在法律院考試的立場看 但這不通啦可是照你這樣講的話 我們為什麼有通保法啊有好多法令 法令都不應該有這個制定這麼多的一個特別法 我倒認為啦"},{"start":23296.613,"end":23302.496,"text":"我們在司法法治委員會你們很清楚啦我是一條一條在把關啦我每一條我都提出來啦這我反而會覺得說這裏面有涉及我再講一次我不管誰執政我都不相信這個政府啦"},{"start":23318.124,"end":23345.897,"text":"我講我的真心話所以我們制定這一些是真的要打擊犯罪給公務人員去依法行政你像比如說法務你們行政院提出來這個我也倒認為說很多這一些措施要不要到法官保留或者至少要檢察官保留本來行政院認為是他們內部訂定規則就可以了"},{"start":23347.045,"end":23369.379,"text":"我認為是不夠的我認為是不夠的你像比如說像現在各位我不曉得各位要的是什麼你們不是說要支持嗎要支持那我覺得大家的方向就是一致嘛那只是說放在程序法裡面就是行動訴訟法裡面或者要弄這個專法一個專法"},{"start":23371.82,"end":23387.328,"text":"剛剛那個其實施民委員提那個就其實不夠充分啦我們說實在話反而是怎麼樣把那個行政院的條文裡面我們去把它做一個加強針對它去實施這一些措施"},{"start":23388.528,"end":23397.174,"text":"要不要事先有檢察官保留或者法案保留我覺得這個才是一個重點我還請教過昨天我還特別請教過吳宗憲、文昭偉我說那個M化車你們以前怎麼搞他說我們最高法案下來以後我們都不敢用了這個叫做什麼意思這以前他都亂搞啊"},{"start":23413.41,"end":23423.842,"text":"最高法院沒有做判決啊所以以前都一直在用啊是後來最高法院宣告說你這個就是採證程序全部都違法那個不能列為證據啊沒有證據能力是這樣子啊可是我是突然看到那個報紙又出現那一台那麼貴重的M化車以後其實我也覺得"},{"start":23433.129,"end":23439.794,"text":"先你頭也不太舒服啦我說實在話啦我們在審這個法律的時候那吳宗憲你們以前當檢察官的時候你們就是這樣幹啊 對不對所以我反而會覺得說我是從實質上去各位應該是實質上大家覺得要對法務部對行政部門支持他的打擊犯罪我們一起支持但反而是從這個具體的條文裡面有涉及到人權侵害的部分要嚴格的把關啊否則2020年我們是不是都被你們怎麼K的"},{"start":23462.796,"end":23472.141,"text":"你們反而這次對內容就變成沒有意見了,變成我在有意見了。二零年的時候一直罵,每天罵我們東廠東廠東廠,罵到我覺得奇怪,怎麼變成我在罵我們自己,你們都不罵了。所以我反而到覺得放在刑事訴訟法裡面,或者說我剛剛為什麼挺懷負特別再提出說明,請他們來說服你們,因為我覺得還是要有刑責在裡面。公務人員給你這一些武器,你違反了。"},{"start":23492.608,"end":23512.263,"text":"那這個你放在刑事訴訟法的話你的過程要含涉不進去我認為所以這個站在人權保障立場我還反而會覺得說要達到打擊犯罪的一個目的可以提供他們武器但是另一個專法而且是把公認人的義務還有科與他責任的把它寫清楚是合理的謝謝莊惠玄委員發言接下來請黃國昌總召請發言羅志強委員請準備"},{"start":23516.936,"end":23540.317,"text":"其實對於莊瑞雄委員保障人權的用心我也是非常的佩服那M化車的事情新的國會我第一次總諮詢就提出來那我那時候就充滿了困惑最高法院做了判決說沒有證據能力那我們的高檢署還是花錢買的"},{"start":23541.744,"end":23560.579,"text":"那個時間序我記得很清楚最高法院的判決先出來出來了以後你們才去辦招標所以我那時候問他們說最高法院判決都出來了你們應該也很清楚你們還花錢買那個東西是在做什麼"},{"start":23562.421,"end":23573.315,"text":"但我還是要回到這件事情就是說因為過去這幾年就法務部跟司法院來來回回"},{"start":23574.568,"end":23596.275,"text":"每一次科證法不同時期的版本其實我都有看過我都有看過在不同時期的版本裡面我相信法務部非常的清楚司法院也很清楚你們都有參與你們都有參與在不同時期的版本"},{"start":23597.83,"end":23624.477,"text":"每一次在科證法最後如果有罰則的話是針對什麼設置罰則其實是針對小木馬其實是針對小木馬有特別罰則的只有針對小木馬那為什麼就其他GPS的部分沒有去設特別的罰則因為你們也很清楚知道"},{"start":23626.651,"end":23645.965,"text":"違法使用那個你們就回到普通刑法去加以處罰那否則的話當初那麼多年的版本針對除了小木馬以外的證據收集方法如果有違法的話都沒有設法則喔都沒有設法則喔"},{"start":23647.288,"end":23675.309,"text":"那這一次就柯真法的版本最後刪減掉把什麼小木馬、大木馬那些全部都排除掉了以後就回到了可能大家爭議最小的部分那些爭議最小的部分事實上在你們本來柯真法的版本裡面通通都沒有設法則為什麼通通都沒有設法則不代表說沒有設法則你就可以亂搞"},{"start":23676.636,"end":23704.095,"text":"而四、你們也知道在刑法規範的體力當中你牽涉到個人相對應的法益的時候本來就有法條可以用刑法針對不同個人法益你以非法的方式去侵害到個人法益的時候本來就有相對應的法條可以用否則的話當初用GPS的那個海巡他是怎麼被判刑的那因此"},{"start":23705.034,"end":23727.889,"text":"到最後目前的這個階段可能在立法體力上面有所爭執的時候才趕快我某個程度上面我會覺得說趕快加一些好像可以相對應的條文但是在刑法的體力本身的作為一個以刑事手段作為後盾的法益保障法裡面"},{"start":23728.789,"end":23753.397,"text":"法律保障法裡面的刑法本來就有進行規範你們現在用特別法的方法只是把事情搞得越來越複雜不僅把證據能力的部分拉到一個特別法裡面而不是讓它回歸刑事訴訟法那第二個部分第二個部分就變成了是你事後你還是要去處理有關於法規競合"},{"start":23754.577,"end":23769.309,"text":"的問題．所以我才說你們把事情搞得越來越複雜．你們可以看一看．你們之前．在通．就是在科．在科證法歷次不同的版本的條文、理由．你們所提出的意見．"},{"start":23770.33,"end":23787.827,"text":"包括法務部也好包括司法院也好因為我看完的時候在那個階段裡面你們從來沒有針對除了小木馬、大木馬以外說在科證法裡面要立法者現在立法者是什麼現在是立法者是可能牽涉到立法體力的問題"},{"start":23789.088,"end":23804.365,"text":"某個程度上就是為了要提特別法而在後面塞法則有一點畏負心遲搶說愁我可能比較粗略的比例是這個樣子否則的話前面那麼多年"},{"start":23807.127,"end":23834.303,"text":"我沒有去統計啊來來回回這麼多版本裡面就M號車等等的部分根本沒有設法者根本沒有設法者難道你們當初司法院法務部是認為說那些行為亂搞不需要處罰嗎不是嘛因為你們心裡很清楚嘛如果違反了就回去刑法處罰就好了嘛如果是公務員假借職務上的機會方法刑法本來就有加重期刑的規定啊"},{"start":23835.556,"end":23851.944,"text":"個人的法律保障法．比如說三一五條之一．如果是公務員假借職務上的權利機會或方法放．他那邊也有加重期刑的規定．以上是我的看法其實我覺得"},{"start":23862.148,"end":23890.186,"text":"第一個,事實上這個科證法在我們在委員會的時候跟莊惠雄委員的意見是非常接近的那對科證法我們也提出了很多關於法律實體條文裡面的一些我們的一些疑慮那我今天看到民進黨的這個修正動議裡面其實大體上都有放進去了包括說對於所謂的那個犯罪嫌疑人跟第三人你的那個科技偵察發動的條件應該要有所區別"},{"start":23890.906,"end":23918.496,"text":"包括說針對那個GPS即便是沒有滿連續二十四小時應該也要把它加入所謂有通知義務這些規定我覺得基本上這實體的法律的內容意見我覺得我跟莊育雄委員的意見一直都一致那我看到民進黨的修正東西也放進去我覺得這一點是我也是支持的但是對於法的體力的部分我覺得事實上黃國昌委員也好或是中線委員也好"},{"start":23919.276,"end":23942.117,"text":"希望能夠說不要讓這個特別法肥大化放進刑訴法裡面在相應的法律有所一個體系上的適用的怎麼講會比較清楚在運用上我覺得也比較不會產生混淆這個部分我覺得應該也是採取刑訴法的一個優點所以我倒是認為說也許可以有一個折衷"},{"start":23942.958,"end":23961.11,"text":"就是基本上當然我是覺得行政機關不要用這個刑訴法要再去做修正在刑訴法裡面認為說好像又多一道工要多一點麻煩來從這個角度來去思考說今天一定要用一個專法來去做但如果說今天"},{"start":23961.69,"end":23980.369,"text":"考量到說我們今天這個法的體系的完整性或是說今天實際上結構的周延性的話那我是比較認同吳宗憲委員跟黃國昌委員但是對於法律的實質內容的修正的部分我就還蠻認同民進黨提出的這個修正東西我是覺得有沒有可能就整合一下"},{"start":23981.05,"end":24009.417,"text":"就實質的條文內容就把這個民進黨版的修正動議放到我們的法律條文內容但是修法體力上的話能不能就還是尊重就是我們這個兩位這個委員中憲委員跟那個我們的國昌委員這是我提的一個折衷的一個做法那各位黨團幹部我們已經討論了非常久嘉賓委員、中嘉賓委員等一下發言完畢之後我們先休息黃金五分鐘大家再溝通一下看看如果沒辦法達成我就必須要處理了好嗎?請中嘉賓委員進"},{"start":24010.819,"end":24027.941,"text":"好,謝謝主席也謝謝剛剛羅委員的發言非常感謝在科偵法的協商當中我們羅委員充分的參與那麼也跟我們的莊委員有速度的對話都是為了要精進讓這樣的一個偵察法科技偵察法能夠完備"},{"start":24029.246,"end":24050.199,"text":"提供犯罪偵訪所必要的工具．也能夠確保人權的保障．再發現事實跟保障人權都能夠兼顧．所以我就剛剛聽得這樣一輪下來．感覺上．對於這樣的科偵法也好．刑事訴訟法也好．反而是法律人對於法體力．會比較有所堅持．像我們這些非法律專業的人．都覺得像羅委員一樣．我們就務實．"},{"start":24051.3,"end":24079.113,"text":"可以用．好用．在著立法經濟效率上的比較高的．我們就可以採用．到於對於體力何者回憶．孰優孰劣．其實我們聽了雙方的不同的意見．都覺得可以接受．這一點我大概是蠻跟羅遠一樣的．那現在就拉回來談．那麼因為這兩個不同的體力．如果我們還是僵持在體力之爭．感覺上好像可能院長就比較感受．華山派．華山論見有見忠跟器忠．"},{"start":24079.853,"end":24098.584,"text":"每次兩派子弟華山論劍有人說劍中說劍中的好氣中說氣中的棒對不對但是氣中好劍中也好誰的武功秘籍傳下來學的人多學的人強那才是重要所以現在我們不來論氣中跟劍中不再讓體力上是損失法還是專法我們來論既有的版本上"},{"start":24099.304,"end":24123.096,"text":"怎麼樣已經它的條文已經完備性已經具備了我們用相對較少的時間能夠就已經比較完備的版本來加以處理我想這在立法上不管在協商上是一個很務實的做法啦不要再去論器中見中了啦哪一套功夫現在大家練一練學會可以打得倒壞人這個就是好的武功啦所以我看一看是說其實我也覺得也不用再去指"},{"start":24123.556,"end":24149.409,"text":"在過去為了捍衛自己的這個立法體力不管是訴訟法還是一個專法我們就開始要強化自己過去不足的地方也不用再去翻對方說過去你們其實也沒有怎麼樣也少了什麼還不是一樣照做我覺得這個討論呢都是這樣過去去好像表達說誰才是正宗的我就不用我們往未來看那現在呢大家手上就這兩個版本有一個科證法的修正動議"},{"start":24150.129,"end":24169.423,"text":"他將全部的條文內容上都已經做了一個處理那相對的也有刑訴法的部分也有一個版本那我是不是建議說就這兩個版本比較成熟的部分我們就進入法條來討論把剛剛包括專委委員所講的羅委員所講的這些內容我們所需要放進的內容把它加以肯認"},{"start":24170.143,"end":24187.157,"text":"那肯認好之後呢,我們說不定兩個版本看完了,我們覺得那兩個版本比較成熟,我們來得及再交付,完成協商可以交付用的表決,這個在時間效益上來考量,這個比較務實啦,我只做這樣的一個建議,因為我不是見忠也不是器忠,因為我們不是華山弟子,比較不會那麼堅持。那,好,請檢討。"},{"start":24194.761,"end":24217.28,"text":"我聽了一輪,如果講委員講的,他高度肯定現在重新調過了有四個條文嘛因為你們委員審查我都在注意,他們都有跟我反映,是我主持的調版本的,我要講清楚所以你講的說,既然站在這邊又要折衷,現在已經沒有這條路可以走了吧"},{"start":24218.942,"end":24241.995,"text":"怎麼可能再篩到刑訴區了現在不管是司法院他認為應該在科證法嘛那法部也應該在科證法這兩個單位都是這樣的主張我們硬要說把它拆掉坦白講我們也不必太勉強啦因為這個是立法到現在為止我們找到司法不過不行啦"},{"start":24242.935,"end":24264.252,"text":"然後沒有那個所謂的說兩個都把三、研又再選擇,現在是一條路可以走的我認為齁,連鄭家斌他自己也本來提提起訴他也撤案了嘛所以今天不是又在講說什麼某個都擦擦可以撿到寶貝,那沒有那事情了嘛那個已經不可得了,那不是成熟的,我認為不是這樣"},{"start":24266.935,"end":24280.772,"text":"兩個司法院議員講得很清楚、法務委也講得很清楚（甚至司法院講到說將來執法法規（他們都很難立了（如果要裁給他們的話都很困難的（所以這已經是一條路的選擇（我覺得大家放棄民主的問題（"},{"start":24281.733,"end":24309.307,"text":"因為那這個從一開始有這個之爭但是呢現在已經應該要拖以那個時刻了因為已經調了四個版本了嘛它原來的都不一樣了嘛所以我還是很懇謝拜託說我們應該趕快做一個因為這個法不過也不行也很急的嘛你們從又要再寶貝再比再表決兩個案子這個不對的這是一個很務實而很緊急啊道西齁"},{"start":24310.327,"end":24336.65,"text":"倒是有關於歷史比喻嫌的部分．在刑事我們也一併給它通過這樣比較實際也不存在說你是不是委員所說的大學生都沒有讀過大學生沒有讀過法律一大堆我現在五年通過大學生都沒有讀過我不要這種理論好不好我有反對大家不要務實一點而且不要有藍綠的因為這打詐事必須我們一屆明天要通過的"},{"start":24337.711,"end":24339.877,"text":"所以必須要有一個選擇,如果要保保的話,我們來拚難力。"},{"start":24348.496,"end":24371.064,"text":"其實我覺得一部分認同柯總召的意見但事實上我覺得並不衝突為什麼?因為事實上本來就是有法律實體條文我們大家有一些主張然後本來的條文有一些設計很好但是後來不知道在委員會審查的時候我們就提出了很多問題那我看到民進黨的那個版本有把這個問題放進去我覺得很好"},{"start":24371.644,"end":24400.448,"text":"但是這個是實體條文內容的部分那事實上立法體力的部分本來就是兩個不同層次的議題我覺得倒是沒有說一定要混在一起講啦那事實上你也可以一個做法就是說我們針對現在院版的或是針對國民黨版或民眾黨版的我們把一些修正動議把裡面有關於人權保障的部分你可以把它做得更細緻一點這是一個做法但是我認為條文內容既然要做就做好了那也不要說是因為說今天"},{"start":24401.148,"end":24408.652,"text":"條文內容我們在這邊怎麼討論所以我們立法體力一定要如何如何這兩個是不同層次的問題我覺得應該分開來看以上"},{"start":25618.875,"end":25634.222,"text":"各位黨團幹部、各位列席的閣員、官員,現在我們今天的協商,容許我把協商的結論把它唸出來。時間一百一三年七月十一號新一四上午十點三十分到現在第一點一場三樓會議室協商主題。"},{"start":25635.362,"end":25660.802,"text":"並按協商．一、司法及法制委員會審查行政院函請審議科技偵察及保障法草案．二、十七、蔡易瑜等十七位委員凝聚科技偵察及保障法草案．三、林怡瑾等二十一位委員凝聚科技偵察及保障法草案．四、我們協商的結論明稱第一條至第十一條均保留送院會處理"},{"start":25662.583,"end":25670.905,"text":"這是我們今天協商的結論好不好,請各位黨團幹部我們簽,對我們可以處理前我們可以繼續協商,好那麻煩請各位黨團幹部來簽字"},{"start":25711.414,"end":25719.764,"text":"各位黨團幹部,現在我們下一案（刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案等案（"},{"start":25721.142,"end":25745.656,"text":"本案（司法及法制委員會並審查司法院及行政院、臺灣民眾黨黨團、羅志強等二十七位委員、吳宗憲等二十位委員、鍾嘉斌等十八位委員、沈伯陽等十八位委員提案其中鍾嘉斌等十八人提案經本院第十一屆第一會期第二十次會議同意撤回"},{"start":25746.716,"end":25772.142,"text":"我們現在審查的情況跟與會所有的幹部報告審查會於一百一三年六月十二日審查完畢審查的結果有兩項一、有關徵定科技偵查專章之各題案章名及條文均保留二、第二百四十五條偵查中辯護人筆記權徵定第二百四十五條之一及第四百一十六條禁憲處分之救濟保留"},{"start":25773.926,"end":25800.866,"text":"協商情況 國民黨團於七月四日召集協商由召集委員吳宗憲委員主持本日會議協商《刑事訴訟法有關徵定科技偵察專章之各提案及條文》已經充分討論是否均予以保留送院會處理現在我們處理第兩百四十五條筆記權等三條看各位委員、各位黨團幹部有什麼寶貴的意見"},{"start":25809.862,"end":25817.712,"text":"請柯建民總召請法演請蘇萊恩法務部那我們請法務部先說明,謝謝"},{"start":25822.361,"end":25842.735,"text":"好,謝謝那關於刑事訴訟法這個兩百四十五條那這個司法院跟行政院會嫌含情審議是對於這個偵查中辯護人的這個筆記權的部分那麼我們認為說這個因為是憲法法庭的判決有它的時效性那麼經過司法院跟法務部這個"},{"start":25845.297,"end":25867.277,"text":"會嫌提出的版本,我們認為足以保障律師相關的權益也兼顧訴訟指揮當中關於偵查上面的資料不公開以及國家行使刑罰權程序上必須確保這個利益所以我們建議依照法務部跟司法院的版本來通過以上"},{"start":25872.64,"end":25893.071,"text":"主席、各位委員關於這一個刑訴245之一這個我們大概司法院跟保護部都協商過那我們就是依照那個兩院版這一部分請委員支持謝謝司法院黃副院長的補充那公眾委員版本是不是一樣?長得一樣?"},{"start":25895.868,"end":25922.09,"text":"沒有,他們兩個就是他們有匯錢,有當然有溝通好的嘛那現在就是說,現在用哪一個版本嘛?對,那黃國昌委員也有提案嘛,是長得一樣,只要你用就...驗版可以嗎?好,那就這樣好了"},{"start":25923.817,"end":25945.825,"text":"麻煩請黃國昌總召請發言因為我們上次在討論的時候我有請教過一個問題就是說政治修法會出來上一次那個裁判他所出現具體的問題是說就明明跟你講不可以做了你還去做嘛那我們現在給他筆記權沒有錯"},{"start":25947.386,"end":25956.87,"text":"但我們給他的筆記權是有附例外的在例外的情況之下你還是不能做那你們發現接下來在實際上面操作的時候當發現他"},{"start":25961.158,"end":25987.001,"text":"符合例外的狀況,他卻仍在抄筆記的時候那這個時候,力挺的檢察官要怎麼處理?現在在這個條文裡面,你們所採取的立場以及給檢察官們他們具體的行為規範是什麼?因為當初在那個案子裡面是直接就把他那個筆記給沒收了嘛"},{"start":25988.29,"end":26014.443,"text":"現在是說可以做筆記所以只要可以做筆記就沒有沒收筆記的問題那如果是例外不可以做筆記的話卻發現他來做筆記這個時候檢察官該怎麼做你們給檢察官的行為規範是什麼我記得我們上次我忘了在委員會實質討論條文還是在協商的時候我有具體把這個問題提出來然後你們一直說你們還在思考"},{"start":26015.143,"end":26025.417,"text":"那今天這樣子司法院跟法務部有共識的條文對剛剛我所提的那個問題你們思考的結論是什麼麻煩請法務部黃司長請"},{"start":26026.956,"end":26046.872,"text":"據我們了解上次有提出來事實上在現行法底下假官若認為律師在作筆記的時候有犯罪嫌疑的時候也是可以當體擊破的情形作為證據之物可以把他扣押當然事後要受法官審查法官保留審查要報"},{"start":26047.893,"end":26052.315,"text":"民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．"},{"start":26068.623,"end":26090.604,"text":"當然這個部分我們認為就是給檢察官更大的權限可以來做這個執行是我們認為當然對我們來講是有利的但是可能那時候討論的時候司法院認為這樣子的一個扣押的要件是不是符合人權的保障以及事後製造這個法官審查的這個困難這個應該由司法院來說明這樣子以上"},{"start":26092.382,"end":26092.823,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":26104.289,"end":26127.938,"text":"那因為我們看到那個黃國昌委員提的這一個剛才所講這種情況底下那麼是建議要扣押啦那因為這一個扣押我們第一個懷疑說這扣押跟我一般扣押的這個概念並不相當啦扣押通常都是針對得為證據跟得沒收之物嘛那現在他到底有沒有構成刑事犯罪也不清楚"},{"start":26129.258,"end":26145.692,"text":"如果說以再假設這個是發生在法院的時候,那麼通常進行在法院就要依照我們法院組織法有法庭警察權法庭警察權,法官禁止的行刑底下,他違反的時候是由法庭警察權會法法院組織法本身有處罰,但是那個處罰也不是直接對付強制處分而是認為你違反法院的命令有點藐視法庭這種情況"},{"start":26153.959,"end":26167.696,"text":"所以說,我們對這一條文的疑義是說,如果在法院底下的這種違反法院的命令都還沒有到隊伍強制執行的時候,能不能在偵查程序只在警察要求的時下,底下就給他這樣的權限。我們是覺得說,超過法官可以給的權限。"},{"start":26172.682,"end":26177.446,"text":"那這個有一點疑問至於說剛才那個黃委員所提到具體的個案應該怎麼樣處理比較好當然剛才黃次財有講如果說他有構成具體的犯罪當然可以偵查那如果說他有因為這個具體的行為妨礙我們是假設啦妨礙那個警察跟檢察官執行公務那有沒有妨礙公務上面的相關的問題我們只是假設是這種情形"},{"start":26198.524,"end":26198.744,"text":"再請黃國昌總召發言"},{"start":26219.813,"end":26222.655,"text":"對於第一線在辦案的檢察官最困擾的狀況就是我不知道該怎麼辦"},{"start":26246.417,"end":26265.379,"text":"我所採取的行動有沒有法律的授權我們當初是為了要在這個情況下有一個清楚的法律的依據而且不是只是片面的授權給他你接下來還是要受法官審查嗎所以我才會說去用後面的條文"},{"start":26267.281,"end":26287.384,"text":"現在你們的意思是不需要這個條文不需要這個條文我也沒堅持但我覺得我們總是要讓第一線的檢察官知道發生這個狀況他該怎麼辦那你們今天給的答案似乎是你們自己看著辦我聽起來是這樣如果有誤會的話再請你們指正"},{"start":26289.14,"end":26313.434,"text":"法務部請補充好,謝謝主席跟這個文補充說明那我們剛意思是講就是說因為其實在委員所提出的條文裡面呢最後還是要回到法官之後來做審查嘛那在現行法底下呢檢察官是必須要主張這個扣押的程序就算是得為證據之物啦或是有犯罪嫌疑的時候他才可以用現有的扣押條文來執行"},{"start":26315.816,"end":26334.53,"text":"但是如果徵令這個條文的話當然大家就可以依據這個條文在我做這個禁止或者是限制你做筆記的時候你違反的話我就可以直接扣押但是我們是考慮到後面還是要回到法官的審查所以我才會請司法院去表明說假設這個條文定了"},{"start":26336.038,"end":26354.466,"text":"那現在檢察官依照這個條文來做扣押了之後後面依照準用的規定去報的時候我們司法院在那邊的態度是法官用什麼標準來審查如果又回到這個要得為證據之物或是得人情形的話他才要准的話那其實這一條可能就會有問題"},{"start":26355.546,"end":26371.722,"text":"因為我剛剛聽這個黃富密他的說法其實他是認為這個條文本身就賦予對物的強制處分在要件上面跟其他相類似的情形可能會認為這個授權的範圍有點過廣所以司法院本身並不是很贊成如果司法院"},{"start":26372.242,"end":26397.628,"text":"在這件事上不贊成那立了這個條文之後後面就讓檢察官其實我沒有理由反對這一條對法務部來講當然如果我可以直接做扣押我有這個法律授權依據當然我很高興我可以這個訴訟只會上更大的權限但是如果後續的法官的審查並不支持的話那我想這個是我們的疑慮所在所以我才會這樣子做說明以上補充報告謝謝法務部的再次說明"},{"start":26399.723,"end":26419.959,"text":"黃國昌總長您暫時發言請您剛剛說的我理解但是你只解釋了你們跟司法院的關係那我只希望法務部清楚的說那檢察官這時候該怎麼辦就直接call了還是不要call這個時候到底該怎麼辦我還是沒有聽出來"},{"start":26420.319,"end":26440.178,"text":"就是回到刑事訴訟法現有的規定假設沒有這一條的話當檢察官現場認為這個違反禁止規定這是筆記的行為因為其實訴訟指揮的過程其實千變萬化這個律師或辯護人他違規的行為到底是什麼性質其實也為能一概而論"},{"start":26440.999,"end":26459.109,"text":"那如果說這一條沒有定的話,那麼就是依照現在的刑事訴訟法規定．跟我們過去的案例所顯示．事實上如果他認為這個行為已經構成犯罪嫌疑．還是一樣可以依照現有的規定去做扣押．所以就是他必須要負責去主張這件事情不是啊,但這個會構成犯罪行為嗎?蛤?你們認為會構成什麼犯罪行為可以講清楚一點嗎?"},{"start":26468.442,"end":26469.743,"text":"這要看實際的案件然後具體的情況來判斷這個齁"},{"start":26496.249,"end":26512.878,"text":"假設在這個黃次長你在我我授你偵訊你講偵訊我做就輸我大旁邊我在那抄抄抄後你告訴我你這個可能會有勾串證人"},{"start":26515.294,"end":26532.762,"text":"國篡政人．大部分都用這一條．什麼國家秘密那個未必來．因為有些根本沒有涉及到國家．大部分都有共犯的情況之下．你跟我說我沒有停職．我繼續寫．我是違反你的命令而已．"},{"start":26534.056,"end":26543.722,"text":"我要勾串,這怎麼會過成刑責?我要勾串,我也要真正去被告,哎,副秘,來來來,你,你,剛才你,我要去跟你講,我要去跟你討論了,我們兩個討論,這樣怎麼會有勾串?要不然我單純繼續再記載,不理你,除非有,你說在法庭上法官預知,嘖,這個妨礙法庭秩序而已咧。"},{"start":26560.578,"end":26581.089,"text":"我還沒有到這個違法的程度也沒有我是覺得也沒有我這大家這樣溝通啦你說除非我已經到了最後就是我去把我這個抄出來的訊息跑去跟共同被告那邊跟他在那邊好像跟他故意去跟他走漏風聲或者去跟他通風報信這個才會該當啊否則我光這個抄這個"},{"start":26586.673,"end":26587.093,"text":"請柯建民總長請"},{"start":26612.639,"end":26641.406,"text":"這個一定比以前當然大關事實我們要注意的至於要扣押一定要有要件嘛你沒有提出要件怎麼扣押是不是這樣所以扣押這個有沒有必須要扣押哪種情況要扣押其實他只要記筆記而已所以這部分也沒有需要再寫吧"},{"start":26646.49,"end":26651.414,"text":"你怎麼認定他當場沒有犯法?除非他馬上傳簡訊出去還是怎麼樣?那就可以當場制止?相對法律上應該有吧?"},{"start":26670.359,"end":26698.474,"text":"我們請黃國昌總召再發言,謝謝對不起,我大概只講最後一次啦因為我覺得我好像在幫法務部抄法務部該抄的心我老實說這真的是法務部該抄的心那你們如果法務部最後的立場還是決定沒有關係的話我不會堅持但書的情況如果有妨礙國家機密的可能性"},{"start":26701.461,"end":26712.833,"text":"說檢察官跟律師講你不要抄喔你不要抄結果他還是抄了他還是抄了被發現他抄了抄在那個筆記上面"},{"start":26715.037,"end":26739.765,"text":"我要攜帶這個筆記離開法庭這個時候檢察官可以做什麼你說他這個行為本身構成犯罪我就很困惑他到底構成了什麼犯罪他還沒有開始洩漏這個機密給任何第三人他只是單純要把這個東西帶出去那難不成你要從他帶走的時候開始監控他看他是不是有把這個東西"},{"start":26741.725,"end":26770.424,"text":"帶給任何第三人這操作起來你們真的會讓到時候檢察官真的不知道該怎麼辦你現場說我要把你這個東西扣起來那你說回到一般扣押的那你要回到一般扣押的是它符合什麼樣子的要件我當初是希望把這件事情怎麼處理的程序給明確化讓第一線的檢察官不要那麼累"},{"start":26771.184,"end":26800.043,"text":"不要那麼累因為你要把它全部都拿掉說交給檢察官個案判斷我老實說我不會堅持就按照他們的條文但我覺得話要說清楚你們今天這樣子做的決定未來的檢察官還是會很困惑那我們以後到底該怎麼辦是要目送他帶著那個筆記離開還是要把他扣下來如果要把他扣下來我的法律依據到底是什麼"},{"start":26803.853,"end":26824.54,"text":"請法務部再說明就是說我還是要再表明一次事實上對於這個事情我們並不反對我們也支持若要賦予警察官這個權利的話但是我們的疑慮一直在於說未來法院在警察官做這個動作之後他會用什麼標準來審查我這個扣押的行為所以我們才認為說因為這個刑事訴訟法也是司法院主管的"},{"start":26825.46,"end":26826.561,"text":"司法院還要不要再補充?"},{"start":26846.817,"end":26868.227,"text":"認為這個法律體系我們是建議要做整體的這個思考這個扣押不知道是什麼樣的扣押不是我們刑事訴訟體系裡面的扣押那後續它的這些效果如何可能我們都會產生疑義如果說有必要做處理可能要做進一步的去研議跟思考我們覺得這個條文直接這樣子規範去運用恐怕會產生疑問"},{"start":26872.33,"end":26887.415,"text":"可是我不堅持就按照你們兩邊講好的條文過就好就按照你們但我建議一個針對這個部分提一個附帶決議因為你說你要去處理嘛就不要空空說白話"},{"start":26888.275,"end":26917.638,"text":"復呆決議的文字要寫成什麼樣子讓你們理沒有關係我建議這樣條文我不堅持你們兩邊講好就講好了但從剛剛的討論聽得出來你們兩邊也同意我們本來希望要處理那個問題按照你們通過的條文恐怕是沒有辦法處理所以你們還要再回去想那沒有關係給你們這樣子的時間跟空間但我覺得這件事情在立法的過程裡面要講清楚"},{"start":26918.338,"end":26931.821,"text":"所以我是不是建議說按照他們的條文通過但提一個附帶決議就看司法院跟法務部這邊就在這樣的情況之下要怎麼處理他們必須要做一個研商"},{"start":26951.1,"end":26961.933,"text":"二百四十五條我有提案修正就是在這個四十五條的最後一項"},{"start":26963.759,"end":26979.896,"text":"第一項偵查不公開之作業與處罰令與法律定之那我先跟各位說為什麼今天我想要提這個因為實際上在一百零六年司法國事改革會議第三次會議就已經講出了避免媒體不當報導成為輿論公審現象做出決議"},{"start":26983.659,"end":26996.356,"text":"認為要落實違反偵查不公開必須負行政懲戒及刑事責任然後由權責機關依法定程序調查處理並與言語究責這是司法國事會議的結論七年過去"},{"start":27000.759,"end":27028.875,"text":"偵查不公開已經變成我們司法最大的笑話不客氣的講啦現在叫偵查大公開時代我遠的齁什麼林志廟、高鴻安、楊文科的案子都不講在發動任何的偵查手段開始的前或是中就有特定媒體把所有的案情全部報導而且全部是對當事人不利我不要講這麼遠的喔我就講鄭文燦案嘛不就是"},{"start":27030.861,"end":27055.074,"text":"繼續迷移啊那換言之偵查不公開就是無罪推定原則的一個非常重要的精神就是不讓今天司法單位藉由偵犯案件來帶風向先用輿論將這個犯罪嫌疑人定罪然後方便將來去訴罪他那我舉個例比如說貪污的那個很多的一些貪污案件涉及貪污案件"},{"start":27056.875,"end":27081.251,"text":"當偵查大公開去報導當事人之後你就發現最後定罪於六成那我想問那四成沒有被定罪的人被這個所謂偵查大公開那個刨落一遍之後對他們的公平正義何在那我再舉一個數字就知道我們今天當然我看那個法務部一直跟我講你們自己有內控啊你們也在檢討啊不需要用這個法律的層級來定啊我也不想用法律層級來定啊我直接講啊"},{"start":27082.992,"end":27108.331,"text":"如果你過去績效夠好我也不用被逼到說要提法律層級來定我們從一百零八年到一百一十二年整理了七千兩百五十五件機關收集資料有違反偵查部公開之語那最後呢認為說確實有這個相關的疑慮的有三百八十二件所以列入檢討七千兩百五十五件然後最後呢"},{"start":27109.964,"end":27119.065,"text":"檢察官被起訴零人、行政處分十五人總共的跟這個比例只有千分之二、百分之四跟百分之七"},{"start":27120.563,"end":27145.189,"text":"我必須講如果偵查不公開因為沒有法則因為沒有一個真的行政的責任在上面你做一個具體的法規範的話就算今天的結果今天結果是因為反正檢察官或是司法單位偵查公開了你不用負擔任何責任倒楣的是今天被偵查公開的當事人完全破壞我們今天無罪推定的這個原則"},{"start":27146.289,"end":27155.997,"text":"所以今天為什麼在刑訴法我最後一項,二四五最後一項我提案要用法律,法治化今天偵查不公開的這件事情,以上"},{"start":27167.752,"end":27196.425,"text":"不對 這個應該是司法院就是在這二十五條原條文當中他第一項寫偵查不公開之第二項就是包括被告及犯罪嫌疑人等等等到第三項他這裡所寫的就是屬於檢察官、檢察事務官、司法檢察官、司法檢察辯護人告訴代理人或其他於偵查程序依法執行職務之人員好在那邊除就從這裡開始除依法令"},{"start":27197.145,"end":27223.346,"text":"或為維護公共利益或保護合法權益有必要者外那麼這個偵查中因執行職務窒息之事項不得公開或介入與執行法定職務必要範圍以外之人員那這裡面就有一個除什麼之外除這裡面所寫的維護公共利益、保護合法權益有必要的"},{"start":27223.846,"end":27235.758,"text":"那這個關於這樣的內容目前在實務上你們有沒有訂定什麼相關的規範這也是剛剛羅委員所說的因為目前我們這裡它所謂的"},{"start":27237.462,"end":27258.1,"text":"現在的修正條文當中在行政院版的部分它放在最後一項它是由司法院會同行政院定制那是辦法但是因為羅委員這邊是認為要處罰所以利用法律定制那目前到底這兩者的差異跟你們這個除書內容的具體執行上的規範到底實況上如何能不能跟大家說明一下"},{"start":27262.944,"end":27265.286,"text":"我再補充一下就是說目前剛剛講的除書的內容是否就是你們目前行政院版最後一項第一項偵查不公開的作業辦法"},{"start":27283.883,"end":27292.605,"text":"你們就可以根據剛剛講的除書的內容去制定這就是法律的依據就是你們第一最後一項所說的第一項政黨不公開做辦法的法律依據請說明"},{"start":27295.446,"end":27322.087,"text":"跟主席還有我們所有委員來報告那我想這個現在剛剛周大斌委員所唸的那個最後一項就是作業辦法這個是現行條文就有了所以這個作業辦法是由司法院會統我們行政院就法務部這邊來定的所以它本身它的位階就是一個法規命令就是授權的法規命令那所以其實位階已經相當高它不是一個行政規則而已"},{"start":27325.242,"end":27346.567,"text":"剛剛鍾委員有唸到第十三項的部分所以這個其實就已經規範了相關的甲官、檢視官、司法警察等等甚至包含辯護人員跟告訴代人他們的義務、他們的保密的義務所以在法律的層面事實上他們的行為義務都已經有了"},{"start":27348.087,"end":27375.921,"text":"當然我過去也很關心這個題目所以我也非常重視我接任之後我們部裡面也針對剛才羅翔委員所提的過去偵查部在作業辦法的執行狀況做一個檢討也開了這個精進的會議這邊補充說明就是說所說的七千多案事實上確實是因為我們是由各地檢署"},{"start":27376.641,"end":27393.717,"text":"自己來做對內部的管控所以是各地檢署自己的行政人員每天看報章雜誌然後就自己列了這些案件所以各地檢署其實過去這個標準不一有的地檢署其實列了很多案檢討之後其他部分都沒有問題"},{"start":27394.938,"end":27416.997,"text":"二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四"},{"start":27418.699,"end":27443.176,"text":"這個表格上不能只有這個數字必須要針對這一些討論的個案裡面到底什麼狀況要復解、要理由第三個,這一個如果發現任何有問題的話因為這個所謂的洩密或是說透露案情不一定是只發生在檢察官本身或是說地檢署裡面也有可能相關這個共同辦案的這一些人員都有可能"},{"start":27443.436,"end":27467.512,"text":"所以也要求說若發生這些情形的話應該要主動罰函並且追蹤這一些自我檢討認為有違反政策不公開一律的案件要列管來執行這個是目前法務部在行政措施上面所做的精心作為在這邊跟所有的委員補充說明關於羅站委員今天的提案在方向上面"},{"start":27468.412,"end":27488.911,"text":"這一個到底要用法律的位階來定或是維持現在法規命令這個當然可以討論不過我會懇請委員支持就是說這一次因為我們可能沒有接軌的問題如果現在馬上就修法通過要用法律來定的話那現行的作業辦法到底還適不適用"},{"start":27490.372,"end":27506.137,"text":"所以可能讓我們先就這個現行的作業辦法跟他執行了我們來做一些精進的作為之後大家再討論是不是必須要以單獨的專法的方式來訂定才能夠符合大家的期待以上跟這個大院來做說明"},{"start":27511.226,"end":27522.317,"text":"我還是那句話雖然說七千多件是你們的各檢察機關的統計落差但是我跟法務部講非常符合人民觀感啦"},{"start":27524.017,"end":27544.04,"text":"現在你出去問問看,到底我們人民認為偵查是公開還是不公開?我跟你保證,大家都認為偵查是公開的因為幾乎每一個案子只要稍微有點社會矚目度,都是偵查公開然後到最後到現在法務部、主管機關根據現行的作業辦法去查辦的結果,就是績效就是一塌糊塗"},{"start":27544.941,"end":27562.897,"text":"完全沒有任何對政大部公開的任何的一點強制跟約束所以今天我才會希望用法律的方式來去提高它的位階當然我接受你剛剛講的作業辦法現在正在運作當中但是第一個你的作業辦法運作那個績效到現在我也沒看到你的績效"},{"start":27563.778,"end":27592.978,"text":"二、如果真的覺得說有這個銜接的問題的話我覺得可以設計日出條款啊給你一個法定的一個期限嘛這期限然後到時候你就把作業辦法變成是所謂的法律從法規命令變法律那我認為中間真正重點是什麼必須法律明文規定處罰的方式啊就是要有一個約束力你以現在的做法就是法規命令的話只是講作業辦法由司法院會同行政院定之不痛不癢啦"},{"start":27593.798,"end":27604.917,"text":"如果靠法務部的內控能夠解決這個問題今天也不用討論這個問題因為偵查公開幾乎是全民共識完全破壞我們無罪推定的法治原則以上"},{"start":27605.831,"end":27623.966,"text":"好,謝謝羅志祥偉那跟各位黨團幹部報告齁那這個兩百四十五條顯然大家的意見非常的分不一致啦我想我們就繼續溝通我們先往下一條兩百四十五條之一來討論如果大家有什麼其他意見我們回頭來再說好不好因為這大家意見不一我們等一下再協商那現在"},{"start":27625.438,"end":27636.795,"text":"我們現在就進入兩百四十五條之一好不好對等一下等一下沒有關係那我們請法務部勒麻煩黃次長再辛苦一下我們兩百四十五條之一請說明好不好行政版本"},{"start":27641.132,"end":27661.153,"text":"主要是針對兩百四十五條的這個後續救濟的程序性的規定那這部分我們也懇請大院支持依照配套的規定當初保留應該是因為兩百四十五條保留所以一併保留的所以如果說能夠依照前面的規定來通過的話後面懇請大家一致來支持以上"},{"start":27666.676,"end":27667.276,"text":"黃國昌總召"},{"start":27686.977,"end":27710.747,"text":"那本來只是設計前面的救濟程序那因為它前面已經規定在兩百四十五條之一特別做救濟程序了所以我們就集中火力在兩百四十五條之一就好所以四百十六條的部分不予增列我們同意那我們四百十六條就不予修正"},{"start":27713.311,"end":27718.159,"text":"那兩百四十五條及兩百四十五條之一等下我們喊一個休息時間我們大家可以溝通一下"},{"start":27749.171,"end":27757.114,"text":"沒有,我講一下,這個正常公開泄密的環節很多,連法警都可能,大部分都是法警"},{"start":27761.77,"end":27775.007,"text":"當然旁邊聽嘛,有宋公文的,都有,從調查局開始到警察官哪個警察官特定會跟哪個媒體配合,這個大家都很清楚"},{"start":27995.24,"end":28022.669,"text":"各位黨團幹部、各位閣員、官員我想我把我們暫時一個草原協商的結論先唸出來以後再請大家用餐請大家仔細聆聽兩位總召請仔細聆聽好不好柯總召跟副總召因為這跟你柯總召提的有關係柯總召這下面跟你提的有一點關係我先宣布一下以後大家開始用餐大家有意見的話再表達"},{"start":28024.199,"end":28051.307,"text":"第一點跟大家報告科證法跟刑訴法在立法政策上各黨團意見尚未一致但打詐釋法是民間民眾期盼的法案希望各黨團能夠繼續溝通、把握時間希望能夠順利完成這些法案的處理二、剛才科證法的協商結論是均保留院會處理但是民進黨的柯總召有表示希望院會處理前要再繼續協商請問國民黨團跟民眾黨團有沒有意見"},{"start":28054.54,"end":28072.842,"text":"如果沒有意見的話就繼續協商就這樣也跟兩位黨團報告一下第三、如果有不同意見跟打詐有關的科證法、專法以及刑訴修正我們就請黨團來繼續溝通一、議事規定來處理大致上是這樣子那我們先休息請用餐"},{"start":28084.315,"end":28093.985,"text":"剩下其實我們要處理到哪一個法只要處理到通保法的話很快了通保法結束嘛新住民那個還早"},{"start":28106.157,"end":28122.968,"text":"明天還可以協商嗎?明天還可以協商?禮拜一還可以協商?對!所以還好啦!那新住民還早啦!市長不好意思啊!副民主黨不好意思!大家請用餐!我看你今天要通保就好了!院長!今天要通保法!"},{"start":31008.349,"end":31035.826,"text":"謝謝謝謝各位黨團的幹部、各位列席的閣員、官員現在有新增幾位列席的官員代表剛才不在現場我現在補充介紹一下內政部移民署的江副組長江副組長還沒到齁他這邊名字列上去的等一下請內政部的官員稍微注意一下交通部的交通產業發展及國際事務司的政績證歡迎您"},{"start":31037.589,"end":31056.825,"text":"衛生福利部的張專門委員國家安全局的第五處的馬副處長中華郵政公司的吳副總歡迎這些名字打上去單位都已經在這裡怎麼人都不在了"},{"start":31058.399,"end":31060.843,"text":"個人資料保護委員會的嚴科長,歡迎你"},{"start":31072.318,"end":31093.921,"text":"好,沒關係。好,謝謝各位黨團幹部。我們現在接下來討論通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正案本案司法及法治委員會並在審查行政院及臺灣民眾黨黨團提案。審查情形,審查會於一百一三年六月六日審查完畢。審查結果,第五條、第六條、第十一條之一及第三十一條保留。"},{"start":31094.602,"end":31116.596,"text":"院會第十八次會議（將林怡瑾等二十一位委員提案近乎二讀與相關提案並按協商現在協商情況跟各位黨團幹部報告一、民黨團於六月二十八日召集協商由鍾嘉斌召集委員主持二、協商結果第五條、第六條、第十一條之一及第三十一條均照協商內容通過"},{"start":31117.757,"end":31141.244,"text":"協商結論並未完成簽署另一院會第二十次會議．再將羅志強等十六位委員提案近乎二讀與相關提案並按協商保障條例四條先前協商據以共識另一新增．羅志強委員提案需協商兩條．第十五條及第十九條我們另外"},{"start":31144.401,"end":31165.894,"text":"還有鍾嘉斌委員等十八人提案及蔡易瑜等十八位委員提案自委員會抽出近乎二讀與相關提案並附於本次協商會議並按後新增協商條文一條、第十八條之一合計本案須協商三條第十五條、第十八條之一及第十九條我們先請羅志強委員請說明第十九條"},{"start":31172.957,"end":31174.519,"text":"第四九頁跟第二十頁19、20頁"},{"start":31178.669,"end":31202.548,"text":"那這次這個通保法的一個修法雖然說增加所謂的通信記錄跟網路流量記錄的這些調取但是被調取人他無從獲知被調取的行為以至於無法從事救濟所以也沒有辦法去明定違法調取應負的損害賠償責任所以為了"},{"start":31205.691,"end":31211.75,"text":"確保我們人權保障的周延．所以我在第十五條就甄列最後一項就是"},{"start":31213.629,"end":31240.249,"text":"第六、前六項規定與本法調取他人通訊紀錄與網路流量紀錄之情形一準用之所以換言之如果真的有所謂的偵查犯罪的必要你要去調取通訊紀錄跟網路流量紀錄的話應該要比照通保法第十五條的規定在這個所謂的事後的部分的話應該要讓被調取人或知他有被調取的這個情形這第十五條"},{"start":31241.03,"end":31266.547,"text":"那第十九條就是如果有一些違法的一些調取的狀況的話那應該要負損害賠償的一個責任那這個就是把關於這個調取通訊記錄、通訊網路流量記錄的情況一樣是準用第十九條前面的三項的規定就是也可以有所謂的也要科以損害賠償責任以上"},{"start":31271.488,"end":31290.225,"text":"第四十五條條文還有沒有其他黨團的幹部想要發言我這邊也附帶提一下我這邊抽出近乎二讀並同協商的部分其實全部的條文都已經在協商的過程當中已經融入"},{"start":31292.593,"end":31317.791,"text":"對,我剛才講了,我剛所說的就是指中加兵等十八人所提的通保法第三條之一、第十一條之一、第十八條之一還有那個蔡委員的部分條文修正那因為本席在參與協商的時候呢雖然當時尚未有交付委員會那也是就其內容來參與協商所以原則上是跟協商內容意見一致"},{"start":31318.671,"end":31335.741,"text":"現在建議是就剛剛羅委員的第十五條、第十九條建議聽取因為我們在協商過程當中這個部分並還沒有有稍微講一下但是還沒有完整的把相關的意見收集齊所以建請就相關部門做說明"},{"start":31338.069,"end":31364.277,"text":"那去法務部黃司長那辛苦一下謝謝謝謝主席那關於本次討論剛剛羅志強委員所提第十五條的部分那因為這個如果規定所有的通訊紀錄或網路流量紀錄的調取事後都要來通知的話現行15帳比照這個監聽事實上都是由法院來執行的所以可能等一下要聽司法院的意見"},{"start":31365.557,"end":31388.538,"text":"我們這邊了解是因為件數相當多我們這次修法是新增網路人員紀錄通訊紀錄過去其實也都有在調取這個本來就是另狀的都是要經過法院同意的所以就是案件數恐怕相當的大這是第一個第十九條的部分因為其實這個當初就是為了要強化對於人民權益的保障"},{"start":31391,"end":31399.887,"text":"事實上依照民法的規定本來如果違法就侵害到他們的權益就要負所在朋友責任所以外語證定的話我們也是支持不會反對以上"},{"start":31406.947,"end":31434.208,"text":"主席、各位委員那正如剛才黃正智所講的這一個羅委員增加這一個第十五條加上這一個通知的規定那個量是相當的多那當然可以預見說將來我們法院的這個通知的工作會增加非常非常的這個多那我們如何因應會是我們非常困擾的一個問題這是第一個第二個問題就是說"},{"start":31436.189,"end":31457.322,"text":"加上這個通知這個規定的時候也不知道這個規定的準用的結果是如何因為我們不是所有的調取通話都經過法院許可像十一條之一的第四款也就是重罪第四項那麼在十年以上有期徒刑的這些特殊案件的時候其實是不需要經過法院的"},{"start":31457.862,"end":31481.771,"text":"不需要經過法院的話那準用的結果是還是要法院通知嗎?因為法院根本通的都不經過法院我不知道準用的結果還需要法院通知我們每個不知道那這種情形是不是得在這邊去做一個釐清或者是說準用的結果是性質相同才準用性質不相同當然不準用那恐怕也得在理由上面我們是建議要能夠釐清楚這一點因為我們從頭到尾都"},{"start":31482.651,"end":31487.655,"text":"因為他重罪,從頭到尾都沒有經過法院,不太可能是由我們法院去做通知,以上報告"},{"start":31498.34,"end":31521.336,"text":"當初提這個意見我覺得因為本來我針對像我跟專委選委員在關切的那個角度就是為了要所謂打詐、偵防犯罪我們事前會給這個相關的一些司法機關等於是有比較大的彈性跟時效作業空間但事後通知我是不太能接受所以人力局處為由來去做一所謂的"},{"start":31521.816,"end":31537.209,"text":"事後不用通知這個狀況,因為道理很簡單,我不管是調取任何記錄,事後通知其實也是賦予今天司法機關會更謹慎使用這個新的偵查工具的一個謹慎性"},{"start":31538.57,"end":31564.896,"text":"否則的話你調了以後就到最後當事人從頭到尾都不知道他連這個救濟連申訴甚至連損害賠償的發動都不知道那至於剛剛司法院那邊講說到底這準用情形如何我覺得司法院你可以來提一個覺得有什麼樣一個方式在條文上更明確但是我要強調的重點就是說我覺得不能夠說今天你去調取他之後結果呢我被調取我都不知道"},{"start":31565.416,"end":31581.313,"text":"那我覺得這種情形對於所謂的隱私侵犯那我覺得這一點我覺得是說不過去那當然另外一點我覺得剛剛聽了那個講這幾次溝通講那個人力的部分我覺得我倒是可以修正一個就通信記錄可以不用"},{"start":31582.995,"end":31609.258,"text":"我直接講啦,因為現在通信記錄根本就不重要啦因為現在也沒什麼人真的是在用電話的通信記錄在去做一些什麼的一些意識聯絡但是網路流量的記錄我覺得還是很重要因為畢竟現在人對網路的依賴度是非常高的所以你調取我的網路的足跡網路流量記錄的話我覺得這個是對我的隱私權侵犯你當然必須要事後要通知,以上"},{"start":31610.576,"end":31637.973,"text":"謝謝羅思強委員的補充接下來請鍾嘉斌召委繼續發言好 那麼剛剛那個羅委員提到第十九條因為這個還是一個補充的說對於前三項規定與違法本法或其他法律之規定調取他人通訊記錄剛剛通訊記錄已經說明了那麼通訊通訊使用者資料那他們的說法是說升登資料啦那升登資料呢跟流量記網路流量記錄這個情況那麼也就是讓被調取的人因為在違法"},{"start":31638.793,"end":31648.805,"text":"違反本法或其他法律去調取的時候確實有必要讓這個相關的純害賠償的請求應該是包含在內我是針對第十條部分做說明"},{"start":31652.142,"end":31652.722,"text":"柯總召這邊有沒有寶個意見?如果沒有,我們就..."},{"start":31684.655,"end":31699.719,"text":"剛才有補充就是說因為這個後面還有是否可以救濟的部分就是說如果當事人接到通知之後他認為說你是違法來調取那後面的救濟部分可能在相關的刑事訴訟法配套措施"},{"start":31700.439,"end":31714.845,"text":"要一併加上才會有施議因為目前的話只是知悉但他對於前面的這個命狀的決定他也沒有這個究竟的管道所以可能要請司法院重新整體的從旁來規劃才會比較完整以上補充報告司法院黃副秘書長您要不要再發言一下"},{"start":31730.121,"end":31740.717,"text":"主席、各位委員關於這個許可的救濟原來的條文並沒有這部分如果回到那個"},{"start":31742.54,"end":31755.81,"text":"因為許可到後來才通知那通知今天假設說後來被通知的時候他認為原來違法你恐怕得依照其他的那個相關的這些規定去主張說國家機關的這些行為是不當的"},{"start":31759.318,"end":31779.073,"text":"因為這個是早就已經過了那個事後跟你通知嘛你也沒有來不及在許可的時候去抗告所以說事後你只能依照其他法律程序至於說會尋什麼其他法律程序的話可能要看看是不是因為他主張說原來處分違法那麼讓他受到什麼樣的損害"},{"start":31780.134,"end":31791.164,"text":"那依照相關的這些法律規範（實體法律規範去做主張（如果我目前初步的這個思考是如此（但是如果要進一步的去規劃（可能要再去做進一步研議"},{"start":31793.396,"end":31808.917,"text":"謝謝司法院補充那如果大家行政部門也已經解釋過了我想各黨團幹部如果會的完我們就這個我們把這五個字所刪掉就是針列十五條之六就是切"},{"start":31810.669,"end":31838.118,"text":"前六項規定,於依本法規定調取他人網路流量記錄之情形,亦準用之。我們針對這個。好,我們第六,我們就照協商內容。對不起,黃副院長請。因為剛才那個主席,因為剛才羅委員是說,他也接受這個準用齁,因為在十一條之一第四項其實完全都沒有經過法院。"},{"start":31838.698,"end":31840.141,"text":"二、研商有關"},{"start":31854.07,"end":31879.312,"text":"對是是是是是那可能這個條文再把條文字可不可以訂得比較清楚一點是是Morgan你可以按麥克風說怎麼寫比較清楚可以請司法院表達意見啊呃司法院請木良我們先把這個條文研擬一下那提供給給那個答案參考好那我們休息五分鐘您研擬"},{"start":31888.573,"end":31891.257,"text":"請司法院幕僚人稍微辛苦一下,我們這邊休息五分鐘。"},{"start":31964.424,"end":31984.61,"text":"這樣,那個,對不起,我建議一下法務部跟司法院的兩位黃副秘書長跟黃長長,我們現在繼續先往十八條,然後請司法院的這些幕僚稍微辛苦一下,我們這樣可以節省時間,好不好?好,那個,鍾嘉斌,鍾嘉斌召委,我們就準備繼續了,十八條之一,好不好?好,那我們繼續開會,來。"},{"start":31990.56,"end":32018.369,"text":"那針對第十八條之一,請鍾嘉賓召委,請發言好,那明月十八條之一我們是原來在所有的修正案當中並沒有包含在內那我在這邊是增加最後一項的規定就是說前三項之規定與違反第十一條之規定所取得的通訊使用者資料、通訊記錄或網路流量記錄準用之那這樣的內容已經被其他的相關修正內容所吸收了所以在這裡不堅持"},{"start":32042.625,"end":32046.386,"text":"中加兵委員希望能夠跟各位黨團幹部希望能聽一下法務部針對十八條之一有沒有什麼對"},{"start":32079.073,"end":32102.202,"text":"那一面讀的時候我一面說明一下因為原通報法的十八條之一它的前三項都是在談完成後所應與規定予以銷毀就在取得的資料它都必須在銷毀那麼我們認為違法取得的也應該要準用之"},{"start":32122.963,"end":32146.465,"text":"麻煩請法務部黃次長謝謝謝謝中央兵委員提出來當然違法的部分我們也認為應該要銷毀可是這是一個判斷的過程所以說這個還是委有證據能力相關的規定來處理至於說永祿洋紀錄的銷毀的部分我們另外在前面的條文已經有所規範了所以這一項應該可以不用來釘釘緣緣"},{"start":32148.507,"end":32161.174,"text":"主要哪些條文有規範?在十一條之一跟十四條之一的最後一項授權的字法裡面我們都有規定銷毀的相關的規定"},{"start":32173.482,"end":32192.433,"text":"有啦!就最後一項啦!最後一項陣列啦!對對對!在協商的時候都有機會把它訂到那個授權執法裡面好!同意!好!謝謝!那我們第十八條之一,我們不許修正維持現行條文那...不好意思,司法院這個...您好..."},{"start":32230.831,"end":32248.794,"text":"好,各位黨團幹部,現在我們司法院還在草擬,我們先處理一下附帶決議現在有臺灣民眾黨黨團通報法附帶決議,請各位黨團幹部仔細聆聽臺灣民眾黨所提的附帶決議,通訊保障法監察法第四條之一的附帶決議,第十四條之一明定"},{"start":32249.595,"end":32260.59,"text":"電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者經通訊監察之建置機關指定者有保存及協助執行調取網路流量記錄之義務"},{"start":32263.266,"end":32286.723,"text":"其為建制保存網路流量記錄之系統與維持保存及執行調取網路流量記錄功能正常作業所生之必要費用由建制機關負擔依據法務部評估建制三大電信業者及六個機關網路流量記錄保存與調取相關系統合計"},{"start":32288.605,"end":32292.968,"text":"需約一百零七億七千八百八十萬元"},{"start":32294.811,"end":32317.922,"text":"為法務部未提供任何評估依據．無從判別經費使用之合理性．原請作成決議．法務部應於本法修正通過三個月之內．向立法院司法及法制委員會提出相關經費評估之專案報告．經審查同意後實則執行這是我們台灣民進黨所提的附帶決議"},{"start":32319.222,"end":32337.499,"text":"各位黨團幹部要不要請法務部先說明黃國昌總召請說明因為當初在偵辦其實不僅僅是詐欺犯罪很多重要的犯罪甚至國安犯罪有需要建置網路流量紀錄"},{"start":32339.04,"end":32360.827,"text":"當然我們也經過了相當多時間的考慮然後徵詢各方的意見確認真的有這個必要性我們第一線的監禁只不過說我們當初在討論到第十四條之一的時候其實那個時候真的沒有意識到說初期建制要上百億所以後來再請你們補交一些資料過來"},{"start":32367.009,"end":32393.411,"text":"只不過說到上一次委員會協商為止我還是有提出說看可不可以有時間的話排讓法務部也好警政署也好那包括那個時候我們應該是花了一千八百萬請中華電信去做一個基本的類似像評估報告因為那是用標案做的花了一千八百萬做了一個報告"},{"start":32394.565,"end":32415.592,"text":"我那個報告看完了以後我必須要老實講我真的嚇一大跳因為這個只是初期建制還不包括每一年要花的錢那我們在通過了這個十四條之一的授權條款的時候做這件事情真的要比較仔細一點那這個是為什麼我們提修正動議"},{"start":32417.672,"end":32441.137,"text":"這個修正動議那為什麼要經過同意要報告以後才可以執行最主要的理由之一那第二個最主要的理由之二因為後來我本來希望司法法制委員會能夠排這個專案報告讓大家有機會能夠好好的針對這個內容進行實質的討論那只不過說後來可能議程安排上面沒有辦法"},{"start":32442.137,"end":32469.393,"text":"排入這樣子的一個專案報告那因為我不太確定接下來到底是法務部還是警政署這邊會主責這個整個系統的建構但我要特別提醒注意的一件事情這件事情很重要我要特別提醒注意的一件事情是中華電信當初得標一千八百萬所提的那個評估報告我看完了"},{"start":32470.37,"end":32482.152,"text":"我看完了以後發現他那個評估報告裡面在計價的時候他用的你們要去擷取網路流量記錄"},{"start":32484.229,"end":32513.029,"text":"中華電信的解決方案是採用加拿大的Standby公司它報告裡面寫得很清楚你們去看報告覺得看得到那個加拿大的Standby公司在國際社會上面是惡名昭彰它已經被美國列為制裁的公司為什麼列為制裁的公司因為它違反美國國家安全"},{"start":32514.059,"end":32530.716,"text":"他為什麼違反美國國家安全?因為他協助一些極權政府,牽制網路上面的行為,所以他把他列入了屍體的清單。這個是在2024年,也是今年二月所發生的事情。"},{"start":32531.921,"end":32546.373,"text":"而且他之前銷售網路監控設備及軟體給白俄羅斯等極權國家用來監控人民所以我那時候看完那個報告然後去查那家公司他所用的這個軟體出現了這樣子的狀況"},{"start":32551.31,"end":32572.811,"text":"當然這只是提醒我們我們未來在使用這個網路流量紀錄的時候你們到底是去跟什麼公司買什麼軟體這件事情很重要因為如果真的按照中華電信提供給你們那個報告用那個Sanitify公司的話到時候一搞下去"},{"start":32573.852,"end":32600.421,"text":"可能我們自己檢警這邊實際辦案的需要之外會引發很多不必要大家擔心的討論跟衝擊因為你挑錯了公司那個公司在國際社會上面曾經幹過這樣的事情還被美國政府列為一個實體的清單這是一個很嚴重的事情那甚至當初中華電信怎麼提那個報告給你們的"},{"start":32601.661,"end":32618.529,"text":"我有一點不確定,因為它裡面其中針對網路流量紀錄,它講的三個軟體有一個叫Digital Witness,那個Digital Witness的這個軟體Stand-by公司目前它已經停產了"},{"start":32619.81,"end":32645.347,"text":"那這個公司因為被美國政府制裁現在目前處於一個非常糟糕的狀態所以我有一點不太確定你們當初那個標案中華電信到底是怎麼執行的好 那有鑒於此有鑒於此因為我們立法通過讓你們去買東西去建置這個網路流量紀錄那我們所合作的電信業者"},{"start":32646.427,"end":32661.464,"text":"三大變性業者他們在建構這個網路流量紀錄的時候如果去用到我因為這不是我說他們會用他們自己的報告裡面在評估這個計畫的時候跟你們報的價就是要去買這家公司的這個軟體"},{"start":32662.845,"end":32676.68,"text":"來做網路流量紀錄如果到時候真的是這個樣子的話我覺得一定會引起軒然大波所以有必要善意的事前先跟你們做提議但這個例子也讓我們知道說"},{"start":32678.541,"end":32706.56,"text":"到時候這個東西在建制的時候你們所花的這個第一個是不是真的要上百億我老實講我看那個經費評估報告可以討論的事情還蠻多的但沒有關係我不希望因為這個事情而阻礙了這個法律授權的規定但我們授權歸授權你們真的要下去搞的時候我覺得立法院要比較負責任的方式還是要再進行一次審查所以提出這樣子的附帶決議以上說明"},{"start":32709.003,"end":32711.247,"text":"我仔細聆聽黃偉民的說法,他是對這個案子也"},{"start":32720.302,"end":32734.367,"text":"好像蠻有研究的,也看為什麼能夠會拿到這個評論報告我就不知道但是我請教一下法務部,這法案通過以後是不是要有預算採購?這個應該是要依照法的評理預算"},{"start":32741.029,"end":32758.566,"text":"至於採購法,我認為三個月內叫立法院先來做一個採購個案的評估,同時才可以這樣我們有進入個案的嫌疑我是照政府的採購法與執行法處理,到時候總會送來立法院審議,應該是這樣才對"},{"start":32762.149,"end":32787.766,"text":"這才開大門走大路啊那現在你現在那一家可以,那一家不可以,廠商等一下捐錢的捐錢一大堆啊,真假很難有我是覺得這樣有機會又要採購不好,我們沒有法院不應該注意這個事情照預算法採購法已經好了預算總是要審嘛,哪有先審我從來沒有看過一個案子先能先先搞這一套再來才能夠採購才能配預算的"},{"start":32790.083,"end":32814.083,"text":"這是把這個一間成功地選了謝謝柯建民總召的發言現在請鍾嘉斌召委請發言好 謝謝喔那麼我想對本案非常關注的委員都會希望去理解所謂的網路流量記錄的調取跟保存先有保存才能調取那保存的話呢三大業者要配合建制那目前我所知道的"},{"start":32815.024,"end":32843.567,"text":"對於真正的使用機關大概是來自於法務部調查局跟內政部警政署的刑事警察局因為真正在第一線做犯罪偵訪的他們才知道他們流量紀錄需要到什麼程度需要能夠在多少的時間內提供多少量的資訊才能滿足他們犯罪偵訪之所需所以我對於這樣的一個附帶決議我是建議一個思考第一個就是說是不是應該在上面的明白要求法務部應該會同"},{"start":32845.769,"end":32864.217,"text":"內政部警政署、刑事警察局及法務部調查局去做這些需求的評估那這個需求的評估至於要幾個月去完成的評估再來第二個其實經費目前根據委託中華電信那個標案一千五百萬、一千八百萬的案子"},{"start":32864.637,"end":32891.334,"text":"所做出來的整體的一百零七億等等這個其實還是在一個相當一個概括的範圍也就是說這樣的一個預算需求在未來執行分年分期在每個階段可以滿足犯罪偵防機關它什麼樣的一個需求它不是一下子一夕之間就達成的就像我們過去還在語音通訊的時候那麼建置這些監聽的資料其實也是在透過機房"},{"start":32892.495,"end":32920.143,"text":"拉線慢慢慢慢建立起來．慢慢的普及到很多的門號所以我建議法務部這邊是不是給予法務部充足的時間然後當然中華電信那一份評估報告其實我還是要強調一次應該合理推論未來不會是以那一份的報告來作為建制整個計畫的唯一依據應該還是要反向去推估使用機關的需求後再去尋采購法、去密商來建制"},{"start":32920.603,"end":32948.285,"text":"那至於預算的編列多少也未必就是一百零七億我想這個數值在當時都是一個初步的規劃所以是認同說法務部應該會同這兩個機關那麼在一定的期間內將這個相關的經費評估後面還是要其實說到預期效用也要包含在內因為在建制的過程當中可以達到什麼樣的效用最好能夠在這樣的建制過程也理解預算花下去之後能達到什麼樣的效果一併可以在裡面予以說明那麼請法務部"},{"start":32949.266,"end":32971.096,"text":"待會是不是可以做一個回應我們麻煩再請法務部謝謝黃次長謝謝主席那跟各位說明也謝謝黃國昌總召的提醒那我想這個都是我們未來在建制跟執行政府的經費應該要注意的事情那當然誠如這個課長所講"},{"start":32972.757,"end":32992.962,"text":"未來是要選預算程序跟採購程序來做那所以在這邊提出一點說明就是說未來這個實際執行的機關在行政院內部已經做過決定會有這個內政部警政署跟法務調查局分別去編列預算那基礎的建設比較大比的"},{"start":32993.722,"end":33015.676,"text":"會是在內政部請證書那法務調局主要是做我們在做資料分析的部分是比較小筆的那所以是不是可以建請第一個這個時程可能要有兩個執行單位來說明大概什麼時程是比較適合第二個因為這畢竟職業評估就像我們做了這個評估報告它也未必會是未來實際執行採購的一個唯一的依據所以"},{"start":33019.358,"end":33044.871,"text":"第一個,這個報告到底要寫到什麼程度才不會有那個問題這是第一點第二個,是不是可以直接列明由這兩個相關單位去提出報告因為由我們來統整其實因為我們只是法定的主管機關實際執行這些技術性的事項並非本部的職責所以說是不是可以請這個尤其是跨部會是不是可以請兩個單位分別來向立法院提出就可以了我不同意見"},{"start":33050.495,"end":33068.574,"text":"這個採購何其多啊?就要採購法嘛,他們應該開什麼Spec,他們自己的單位會弄出來嘛。然後行政司法編寫一段進來,然後有一個採購案才先向立法院先報告。這個很奇怪啊,這個個案先進入個案的報告,還要我們同意才可以啊。"},{"start":33069.701,"end":33071.723,"text":"我們提的內容請看是經費評估的專案報告"},{"start":33092.262,"end":33093.083,"text":"哪有涉及到採購?"},{"start":33122.562,"end":33150.725,"text":"因為今年沒預算了嘛沒有什麼預算審查的程序了嘛你們今年不會做這件事情所有的事情都從明年才開始做的話那我沒意見我們就按照從明年的預算開始編開始做審查我為什麼提這個案子是因為如果是你們現在就要做的話我們要很清楚的讓大家知道這個會花上百億"},{"start":33152.347,"end":33171.807,"text":"這個會花上百億至於說你們的預算編出來我們認為合理我們預算過了以後當然是你們按照政府採購程序去做採購嘛這裡完全沒有牽涉到有關於政府採購標案的問題我上面寫的是什麼是"},{"start":33172.868,"end":33200.397,"text":"相關經費評估就是你要多少錢因為我現在看到要上百億我現在看到要上百億老實說啦我有點驚訝我有點驚訝因為這個授權條款下去就授權了但我後來也再去請教你們相關的部會是不是真的有這個需要你們一直說辦案這個很重要有需要我問你們經費怎麼估的"},{"start":33202.297,"end":33225.115,"text":"開了一千八百萬的標案讓中華電信去做中華電信標案的成果報告是公開的資訊我看完了成果報告大概二、三十頁的成果報告我看了那二、三十頁的成果報告以後我心裡就很納悶為什麼這二、三十頁的成果報告竟然要一千八百萬"},{"start":33226.016,"end":33251.474,"text":"因為我看到一份報告二、三十頁是一千八百萬我嚇一大跳我想說這到底是怎麼回事他們後來跟我講過說還牽涉到什麼一個模組還有軟體就是好像是有軟體也有硬體實際下面去做測試然後把那個測試的結果用那個報告呈現出來所以才會花一千八百萬"},{"start":33252.535,"end":33267.632,"text":"去做這件事當你們跟我解釋說有軟體有硬體去做測試做那個報告出來我看到中華電信上面所估價的所估價所使用的軟體那個時候我就覺得很奇怪"},{"start":33268.453,"end":33293.977,"text":"真的要上百億嗎?所以我後來才去看中華電信你們所估價的那個軟體、那個公司那個公司它的背景一點都不難查各位你們現在把手機拿出來Google、Standify今年我剛剛所講的那些內容全部都跑出來了我才會很驚訝提醒你們要跟中華電信講"},{"start":33295.646,"end":33310.923,"text":"他們怎麼會挑那個公司的軟體來做這件事情在測試階段給你們的報告他寫就是這樣寫完全是用這個來當作估價的基準所以我再說明一次第一個"},{"start":33312.199,"end":33335.202,"text":"你們如果今年完全沒有要做這件事情要等到明年的預算才開始編那沒有關係等到我們要審明年預算的時候我一樣會請你們提出這個評估報告所以我不管你是編五十億、八十億還是一百億但你如果今年就要開始做的話這件事情就有必要要進行"},{"start":33337.845,"end":33361.924,"text":"跟主席報告,剛才我跟警務組確認,確實今年不會執行,明年才會執行,先讓大家知道沒有,不管哪一年執行,這法院通過以後,依據法律可以憑追加預算的,不一定要年度預算,可以憑追加預算所以依法律就是如此,等一下我把它講完好不好?你們一直講話"},{"start":33366.485,"end":33376.008,"text":"這很關鍵啦!立法院對於那個採購案要去做、要來報告專案、報告審查統一後才可以去哪一個案子有這樣?"},{"start":33377.677,"end":33394.222,"text":"只要依法執行就可以即便我們通過以後他可以追加一算、辦理追加一算任何法律都是如此他明年才在明年才辦是一回事哪一回事到都是要照採購法以及依法去處理就好沒有一個案子可以說我們那個有採購我們政府採購多少"},{"start":33397.182,"end":33424.853,"text":"然後先立法院來審查以後．評估報告審查以後．總務以後才可以沒有這回事所以這個我絕對反對的這依法執行就可以一採購法一算法執行假如要追加一算你就幫你追加一算嘛這本來就是如此嘛謝謝柯總召那黃總召我拿一家公司可以拿一家公司不可以你們自己要負責的阿那如果您同意沒有沒有沒有我齁這樣講好了我再說一次最後一句話相關經費評估"},{"start":33426.955,"end":33427.779,"text":"根本就沒有到採購階段"},{"start":33429.537,"end":33454.444,"text":"你要花多少錢你先聽我說完嘛你們如果現在公開的表明不會在今年不會在今年去處理這一件事情不會用今年已經過的去處理這件事情你們要等到明年按照預算的程序來處理那我就沒意見就不用做這樣子的附帶就不用做這樣子的附帶決議"},{"start":33459.229,"end":33484.927,"text":"我的意思是說不管今年或明年都是今年假如要辦最佳預算本來法院通過以後他必須辦最佳預算就必須辦最佳預算根本沒有和今年明年有關係嘛都是要經過立法院審查的嘛哪有他經費評估方案報告我們要同意以後才可以去搞哪一個案是如此我對這個案子是完全反對的依法實行就可以什麼和今年明年都一樣的今年要最佳預算就辦最佳預算"},{"start":33486.368,"end":33504.41,"text":"也要送進來的不是今年你馬上讓最佳預算機今年要送進來也是要審查他明天審查這個沒有關係今年明年沒有關係要照預算法查過來就可以我真的很堅持以後可以立法院今天要搞這個"},{"start":33509.758,"end":33523.147,"text":"謝謝黃總召的說明其實因為如果沒有細看文字以剛剛的說明來講我們是認為有必要由執行機關包括刑事警察局跟防護調查局要對他們的需求做一個建制計畫的說明但是這個條文的附帶決議因為剛剛"},{"start":33525.669,"end":33529.732,"text":"黃總幹事說今年不執行因為未來會在預算執行程序預算編列程序的審查過程自然的會表達那麼因為這個副代覺得一個問題是再說最後一句金審查同意後使得執行會不會誤以為我們在立法同時就針對一個預算案去要求必須提出對採購部分的說明後才能執行該項預算這樣的認知恐怕會造成一個誤會"},{"start":33550.504,"end":33567.117,"text":"所以原來當心的是說最後那幾個字經審查同又使得知行可能是引起誤會的主要原因我這裡先說序名至於說相關經費評估雖然目前我們黃總統說的如果今年不執行他這個案子就不需要處理了但是我還是要覺得表達"},{"start":33568.698,"end":33590.439,"text":"如果這個相關機會評估能夠以中性的方式建制計畫之專案報告未來在事務法制委員會能夠有機會來安排讓他們來做一個建制計畫專案報告未嘗不是意見我們對於這個流量紀錄未來如何使用以及在未來要編列預算要怎麼樣去支出的時候先有個瞭解"},{"start":33591.059,"end":33618.357,"text":"幫助民意機關未來審議預算的時候有個瞭解這倒不是個壞事啦所以我是說兩點這個負債決的部分經審查後同意使得執行這個恐怕會遭致誤會不應該有這樣的一個文字描述第二個相關經費評估其實重點是在於整個建制計畫是不是滿足使用機關的需求這是我們委員會會關心的那當然既然這是今年不會執行黃董阿倫會說那如果不執行那負債決就不予討論那我們也尊重了"},{"start":33621.279,"end":33635.648,"text":"你 你在講什麼話 聽不懂韓國昌這個案子是 這個案子經費預算要來做判 包括同意柴克兵編列的這案今年明年有什麼關係他要追加預算就要行預算法來的嘛成功法來的嘛 你就說"},{"start":33638.47,"end":33644.213,"text":"這個案子都應該處理吧?我沒講過不處理,你不要急你還在講今年明年,都是一樣的嘛對,沒問題你先把好,各位黨團幹部"},{"start":33655.513,"end":33681.549,"text":"非常感謝大家,謝謝行政官員,不好意思我們每次實在會有些激烈的,之後會有個會有美麗的花朵,好不好那剛剛黃國昌總召已經講完,如果行政單位今年不去進行採購的話明年度,那明年度審查預算再來,所以我們這個負債決議我們就不處理,好不好徵求各位黨團同意,好,不處理,好,謝謝那請問司法院,剛才您訂那個,好好好,謝謝各位黨團幹部"},{"start":33686.653,"end":33689.359,"text":"關於《通訊保障及監察法》第十五條第七項"},{"start":33695.407,"end":33716.392,"text":"前六項規定於依本法規定調取他人網路流量記錄之情形亦准用之但實施第十一條之一、第四項調取網路流量記錄之情形應由執行機關通知各位請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎"},{"start":33717.489,"end":33741.451,"text":"有沒有意見?那我們十九條就照協商內容通過好不好?那我看我們再休息五分鐘吧先宣讀完畢我們休息五分鐘大家喘一口氣柯總召、中委員請專心聽一下好不好?協商結論好不好?"},{"start":33742.85,"end":33747.842,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論時間一百三年七月十一日星期四下午兩點半"},{"start":33749.502,"end":33774.991,"text":"地理院議長三樓會議室（協商主題並案協商（一、司法及法制委員會並案審查行政院行情審議及臺灣民眾黨黨團凝聚、通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正案等兩案（二、林一景二十一人、二十一位委員凝聚、通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案（三、羅志強等十六位委員凝聚、通訊保障及監察法第十五條及第十九條條文修正草案（"},{"start":33774.991,"end":33795.961,"text":"草案（四、鍾家斌等十八位委員凝聚、通訊保障及監察法第三條之一、第十一條之一及第十八條之一條文修正草案（五、蔡易瑜等十八位委員凝聚、通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案（四、協商結論"},{"start":33797.691,"end":33816.682,"text":"一、第五條、第六條、第十一條之一、第十五條、第十九條及第三十一條我們居照軍造協商內容通過、詳如附件二、第十八條之一不予修正維持現行條文三、其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過四、各黨團同意"},{"start":33817.162,"end":33843.421,"text":"中嘉賓等十八位委員（凝聚通訊保障監察法第三條之一（第十一條之一及第十八條之一條文修正草案（及蔡易瑜等十八位委員（凝聚通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案等二案（從委員會抽出近乎二讀與相關提案並案（在本次協商會議處理如果大家沒有意見（那就請大家通通開始"},{"start":33845.343,"end":33851.948,"text":"我們準備簽署,簽署完畢我們休息五分鐘五分鐘之後我們再審查下面案"},{"start":34482.129,"end":34508.377,"text":"謝謝謝謝各位黨團幹部謝謝我們現在繼續開會接下來介紹我們列席的閣議員及官員首先歡迎國家通訊傳播委員會的陳主任委員黃主任秘書歡迎再來權敘部的藍副司長歡迎內政部的簡世察歡迎教育部人事處的廖專門委員歡迎"},{"start":34511.121,"end":34530.346,"text":"教育部高等教育師的郭專門委員 歡迎文化部影視及流行音樂發展的陳專門委員 歡迎行政院人事行政總處主編人力處曾專門委員 歡迎培訓考用處賴專門委員 歡迎"},{"start":34540.833,"end":34566.399,"text":"來向各位黨團幹部報告我們現在我們現在進行國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第五條、第七條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案本案司法及法治交通兩委會並案審查傅坤祺等三、三位委員"},{"start":34568.41,"end":34587.6,"text":"以及傅昆吉等四十一位委員（及洪孟凱等二十五位委員（及翁曉琳等十八位委員提案（審查情形（審查會於一百一三年五月一日審查完略（審查結果（第四條、第八條及第十條保留（"},{"start":34589.195,"end":34607.181,"text":"另外,院會將賴世寶等二十四位委員提案（李燕秀等二十三位委員提案近乎二讀與相關提案並按協商我們現在協商情形一、國民黨黨團於六月十四日召集協商由吳宗憲召集委員主持二、"},{"start":34607.921,"end":34633.218,"text":"各黨團代表經充分討論．仍然無法取得共識．所以本日協商審查會保留條文第四條．第八條及第十條．以及進覆二讀提案需要協商的條文第五條．第七條、共計五條．請提案國民黨黨團先發言．接下來請陳主任委員請準備好,請好,謝謝院長"},{"start":34636.179,"end":34657.887,"text":"我們現在針對第四條有關於我們委員的提名辦法我想我們現在有一個修正動議那這個修正動議我們把這第四條就是把那個得連任的規定我們現在已經只有得連任一次只能連任一次"},{"start":34658.847,"end":34679.56,"text":"其餘的我們都是依照原來的我們現行的條文另外就是說對於這個如果委員出缺的話或者人數未達足而實或者是因為立法院不同意人數未達足而實那行政院院長因爲三個月補足提名我們做這樣的一個修正"},{"start":34680.881,"end":34709.141,"text":"所以我們已經就是對於這個原來我們所這個提案的相關的版本我們都已經在這一次做很大幅的修正那我想也請這個不管是民進黨的委員或者這個民眾黨的委員都能夠支持我們這一次的就第四條的一個修正好 謝謝謝謝我們林委員的發言接下來我們請NCC陳主委請發言"},{"start":34711.554,"end":34723.724,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家晚安這邊說明一下關於這個第四條的修正動議的部分來講的話第一個就是說關於修正說得連任一次這個部分來講的話"},{"start":34726.271,"end":34748.481,"text":"二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四"},{"start":34752.523,"end":34773.128,"text":"當過委員的人會被再提名為所謂的主委或是副主委那我覺得這個不得在任這個可能是建議不要加進去的因為從尋找人才的角度來講反而曾經當過本會委員他去當過在任委員或在任主委或副主委反而是比較有經驗所以我是建議說這個在任這個部分是建議不要列進來"},{"start":34774.308,"end":34796.347,"text":"另外一個關於這個三個月補足這個是院長的提名權不過這裡修正都有一個很重要的一點是說他把我們原來現行的條文的第四條的第五項關於過度條款那個部分把它完全拿掉那我們有一個擔憂是這樣子就是說我們稱之為過度條款當然有委員認為說什麼萬年條款"},{"start":34800.632,"end":34825.921,"text":"但是如果依照目前這個修正說行政院院長必須在三個院院補足提名的話這種所謂的德言任這種情況不會一直繼續下去反而這個德言任這個條款應該留著避免這個機關會產生沒有辦法運作的現象比如說以我們現在這一屆委員來講的話如果把德言任這個拿掉的話我們本來七個委員就剩下三個"},{"start":34826.781,"end":34849.849,"text":"那我們法定我們要運作最低的法定的緣額就是四名委員嘛那你現在我們只是三個變成NCC沒有辦法去運作那反而把這個所謂的嚴任條款、過渡條款留著讓大院在審查委員的時間比較充裕因為大院現在在立法院職權席次法裡面來講的話你們要舉辦公聽會或相關的聽證會裡面審查期間還有一定的規定"},{"start":34854.369,"end":34866.603,"text":"那這樣的話才不會出現這個空窗期是所以說介意這個在修正動議這個部分來講原來我們本會第四條裡面第五項的這種所謂的過渡條款還是繼續保留"},{"start":34867.418,"end":34879.23,"text":"何況根據這個修正動議來講的話那行政院長他必須在三個月再補足的話這個應該不會所謂的這種過渡期限不會太長將對整個機關來講的話正常運作對大會來講的話你們在審查的期間上比較有一個餘裕比較不會出現所謂的"},{"start":34886.958,"end":34887.098,"text":"三、研"},{"start":34919.5,"end":34944.095,"text":"好 謝謝院長 謝謝大家大家辛苦了那現在我們看到的是國民黨的修正動議那當然首先也肯定我們在委員會的階段還有在黨團協商的階段一直認為期期以為不可的違反這個憲法613釋字的有關於政黨比例來推派NCC委員的這個部分"},{"start":34944.734,"end":34967.144,"text":"今天終於國民黨委員們也知道不應當再站在憲法的對立面再一次提出一個會違憲的版本這個部分今天去刪除的這個是予以肯定但是我想剛剛回到第一項的部分連任一次不得再任原來的條文就是"},{"start":34968.064,"end":34968.405,"text":"黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":34979.871,"end":35007.059,"text":"強迫他不能再任的這個規定因為就我們在政治事務或是我們是國會議員那能夠在某一個專業領域裡頭長期累積他對於事務的專業尤其NCC是完全非常著重專業的一個領域那能夠有這樣子的服務的經歷然後他本身專業的養成以及經過"},{"start":35009.139,"end":35036.613,"text":"這個行政院提名．然後立法院同意．上任的NCC委員．我認為這都是國家重要的人才．所以在這個領域當中．他累積了他的專業．他貢獻了他的才華．然後在這裡．我認為為什麼會突然有一個限制．這個任期的限制．我認為這不利於優秀人才持續在該專業領域貢獻國家．我要強調NCC的委員不好找啊．"},{"start":35037.642,"end":35058.712,"text":"不容易去找到這方面．而且可以獲得行政部門的提名．立法委員的同意這個門檻這樣子的人才的稀有性都非常的珍貴但是有這樣子的產出的人選之後卻在法條上規定他只能夠連任一次"},{"start":35060.173,"end":35084.877,"text":"這完全不合理就像刑 就是像我們立法委員就規定你只可以連任一次 這很怪而且更重要的是不能再任也就是他未來如果就算離開一段時間再回任好像不行我真的不曉得這樣的制度設計是原因什麼樣子的制度設計臺灣有這樣子的其他的獨立機關或者是有其他的什麼樣的公署服務它基於哪些理由"},{"start":35085.357,"end":35108.329,"text":"必須這樣被限制那如果看到國民黨在第一項的條文說明欄是說這樣子的話有這個制度設計才能夠去防止任何的個人在政府中長期掌握權力避免權力集中造成濫用及腐敗所以連任一次不得再任我覺得好怪"},{"start":35109.929,"end":35133.061,"text":"我剛剛是非常正面的在思考國家珍貴的人才而且是非常珍書的人才在這個專業領域可以貢獻國家可是在野黨的條文是又防弊大於心力去阻卻了專業的人才我要強調他是行政部門提名立法院行使同意權的這是double的認可這個人的專業跟是任與否"},{"start":35134.232,"end":35150.528,"text":"所以如果是一個不適任的人他在同意權的部分就不可能通過嘛如果你認為一個人的提名他本身是有極貪腐於一身行政部門也不可能提名他立法部門基於這個對不對也不可能讓他同意上任所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":35151.991,"end":35175.271,"text":"很好奇為什麼有這樣子的設計然後呢我也非常同意雖然這個最後面有這個行政院院長三個月來補足提名的這個第一、二、三、四、第四項但我也同意基於正因為有這樣子的這個我聽得沒有很清楚你們同意有這個三個月補足嗎那也因為這樣被拿掉的第五項那個過渡條款就更應當留下來啊"},{"start":35179.494,"end":35202.663,"text":"因為你不會有人擔心說在這個空窗沒有辦法完成任命或者是沒有辦法完成同一群人的行使的那過程拉得很長然後原來的藉其的委員繼續續任在那裡正因為如此假設有設一個三個月補足的提名的這個前提的話那原來的第五項更應當留著而且留著的它不是為了保有某一個人繼續在那裡什麼什麼繼續擁有權利我認為那是服務那是專業人才在服務國家"},{"start":35209.733,"end":35226.507,"text":"所以那個條款更應當留著而且才能夠避免NCC的日常的尤其關於民生的商用的業務能夠持續的來進行穩健的來推進所以這是我的意見但是這個條文我記得當初在討論好像還有民眾黨的"},{"start":35227.568,"end":35229.649,"text":"我看法和吳志堯委員差不多不得在任我現在講市法院院長許仲敬是不是在任"},{"start":35257.828,"end":35279.124,"text":"現在是嘛對不對那先是首長選舉他當了兩任以後他隔一屆他再來選也可以總統也可以啦總統連任兩次嘛他隔一屆又以後再跳出來選舉也是可以的來除了馬英九或是陳水扁都可以所以"},{"start":35280.734,"end":35295.696,"text":"民進黨團提議的理事長也是用選舉的吧兩任以後再轉到監事再回來他是有些規範這個同意權行使的以及有選舉的都要等同來看待"},{"start":35297.045,"end":35322.02,"text":"我現在就很清楚的嘛是不是啊司法院院長就是在任的嘛這是國家人才而且連總統都可以在任的啊現在縣市長都可以的嘛所以不要用負面的說這個造成腐敗造成腐敗這種思維可能有點差距啊你來思考一下至於"},{"start":35323.181,"end":35344.837,"text":"有關於行政院長三個月補足,就來補從原來的,就是說新的沒有的時候就去做,但是你有時間壓力,三個月再補嘛,這個剛好可以銜接這種的機制嘛但是對於政治國民黨沒有用這種比喻,我們是值得肯定啦"},{"start":35346.658,"end":35351.445,"text":"謝謝柯建民總召的發言接下來我們請那個臺灣民眾黨黨團還沒有發言"},{"start":35354.834,"end":35378.208,"text":"兩黨都已經發言過了請黃國昌總召請曾主委再準備說明第一個部分我們台灣民進黨黨團我們在委員會的時候所提出的在修正動議我們本來就不贊成用政黨比例的方式來推荐信息委員這個是我們從第一天就開始堅持這樣子的立場"},{"start":35379.717,"end":35404.991,"text":"在審查的階段我們事實上是希望能夠有引進像公視那樣的模式但是沒有那麼高的表決門檻然後讓整個提名的作業所有的候選人都還是由行政院院長提名他不會有在大法官解釋裡面實質徹底剝奪行政院院長提名權的問題"},{"start":35406.191,"end":35421.004,"text":"希望藉由一個比較嚴謹的審查程序,最後再讓行政院院長把通過的名單送到立法院來進行審查。經過這樣一個比較慎重的審查程序,我們覺得立法院在考慮NCC委員任選的時候,因為其實"},{"start":35431.713,"end":35449.047,"text":"從NCC成立、設立到現在風風雨雨不管是哪一個政黨執政都會出現這樣的狀況那目前我相信就是說社會上面對NCC這個組織大家也會有非常多的意見當然每一個"},{"start":35449.967,"end":35468.481,"text":"委員有各自的看法但社會上面的確也有一定的評價這是第一件事情那第二個事情是針對有關於認滿的時候可以再繼續演這樣子的事情事實上真的是從NCC"},{"start":35470.042,"end":35498.333,"text":"組織法才開始了我想主委也承認了這樣子的事情那後來到公平交易法事實上是到公平交易委員會的組織法是到比較後期的時候才學NCC那樣子的方式在任何的機關當中都會有都會有提名空缺這樣子的問題但沒有一個組織沒有一個組織是像NCC這樣子是像NCC這樣子就是時間到了以後"},{"start":35499.133,"end":35522.916,"text":"如果沒有新的人出來的話就繼續延任就繼續延任下去所以對於那種自動延任的條款這件事情是我們的底線就變成了這真的是一個很奇怪的制度設計在其他所有的機關當中除了仿效"},{"start":35523.777,"end":35551.617,"text":"通傳會組織法的公平交易委員會以外沒有其他任何一個機關沒有其他任何一個機關是採取這樣子的一個立法的模式所以針對第四條的部分針對第四條的部分我們願意採取比較開放的討論態度但是對於任期滿了以後可以自動再延任的這件事情是我們會比較堅持的底線"},{"start":35554.985,"end":35581.414,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召的發言接下來國民黨團是不是要 黨團要不要發言請傅坤吉總召我想我們陳主委戰功彪炳所以我想這個已經是一個普羅的一個共識我想當然這個柯總召對我們這個條文還是有不同高見"},{"start":35582.982,"end":35610.376,"text":"不過你剛剛講得很好做得很好兩任以後隔一任可以再回來所以蔡英文總統二零二八還要再選我們也是很鼓勵當然我們也很歡迎就是說還是要讓社會的人才都有表演有能夠上舞台的機會所以為什麼說得連任一次基本上幾乎所有的用選舉產生的"},{"start":35612.478,"end":35637.373,"text":"前市長、鄉鎮長、總統幾乎這種首長都是得連任一次所以這個是一個普羅的共識至於說現在能不能產生新的委員的問題這就是朝野大家的一個怎麼樣來面對、怎麼樣和諧、怎麼樣溝通"},{"start":35642.533,"end":35664.887,"text":"既然是人才,大家一起來推舉嘛都可以協商嘛,今天陳水扁總統時代都是大家在商量都一起推舉的嘛過去也是這樣嘛我想這個彼此大家尊重嘛沒有說非誰不可我覺得還是要廣納各界的意見啦這樣真的讓很多人才能夠為國家服務,這是我們的想法好不好"},{"start":35666.322,"end":35693.137,"text":"謝謝傅昆吉總召,接下來我們請陳主委說明之後等一下,我再請問一下,傅總召你那個不得載任還在留著嗎?不得載任,可不可載任?可以載任嗎?不得載任什麼?你剛才半天講什麼?沒有沒有,我沒聽懂你的意思對啊,可不可載任?"},{"start":35701.784,"end":35726.724,"text":"那個衝突性就很大了啦在所有法界大家清德偉有衝突性很大那我講先是所長嘛我總也是可以再任啊對啊成績要夠好啊成績要夠好啊這個可不可以我們先講清楚啊好謝謝了 成績要夠好啊基本上吼基本上啦好不好我們立法是這樣子"},{"start":35727.705,"end":35730.906,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":35745.55,"end":35763.1,"text":"發言完畢之後你已經聽了一輪委員發言再下來就是請翁曉琳委員先舉手再來是鍾嘉斌委員先舉手翁曉琳委員準備發言再來是翁曉琳委員準備發言再來是吳世耀委員準備發言再來是侯孟凱委員準備發言請陳主委好 謝謝 剛剛各位有沒有報告"},{"start":35763.88,"end":35788.545,"text":"本會曾經就有那個委員在任的潛力就是我們十四號主委他是第一任的我們本會NCC的副主委當時的九位委員之一後來在我記得是在滿久總統任期這邊他後面又被提名為主任委員所以我們本會其實是有在任的潛力那因為這個當時我所記得因為我們十組委會被再提名在任就是因為他"},{"start":35789.205,"end":35803.423,"text":"根據我們NCC的業務是相當的熟悉（而且很快的就可以進入狀況（所以在那邊沒有像各位所提的政治上的考量（因為有些還是有專業性考量的問題存在（跟各位報告一下"},{"start":35804.484,"end":35828.397,"text":"二、關於所謂的連任一次或是說認滿和連任沒有次數限制﹖其實我們在其他兩個相關的獨立機關有不一樣公平會這就跟我們一樣就是認滿得連任﹖它沒有次數的限制那中選會它認滿﹖它是得連任一次這個是兩個獨立機關跟我們一樣﹖所以它設計上不太相同"},{"start":35830.438,"end":35853.916,"text":"為什麼原因我個人並沒有了解當時的立法的過程不過從這兩個獨立機關的主心來看中選會應該是比較政治性的因為它是選務的問題公平法院跟我們一樣它是屬於競爭管制它比較專業性的考量所以這個就是看大院的決定說這個是不是要認一次與否或者可不可以在之後限制連任一次的問題而已"},{"start":35855.958,"end":35878.032,"text":"另外一個關於過度條款的部分也跟黃總召和各位說明一下本會是合一制機關跟其他部會不一樣其他部會我一個手掌我就可以做行政處分沒問題但是本會合一制機關我們七位委員裡面來講至少要有四位委員才有辦法組成合法的委員會才有辦法做成行政處分"},{"start":35878.792,"end":35904.796,"text":"而且我們的組織法裡面有一些重要的行政組織都必須要經過委員會的討論決定才可以這也是當時為什麼會設計這個所謂的過渡條款那其實黃總裁給我們指教以後我們回去查其實當時的修法其實立法理由就只有黨團協商沒有其他的那個理由存在所以我個人的推測是因為"},{"start":35905.496,"end":35905.636,"text":"二、研商有關"},{"start":35935.796,"end":35954.308,"text":"關於行政院院長這三個院內（因為組織法提名權是行政院院長的權利（這個不是我們的權利（所以這個部分來講的話（我們只能說競表對委員的意見（的提議（競表尊重那以上補充到這裡"},{"start":35956.147,"end":35983.292,"text":"黃竹敏也要補充嗎?我請你們行政機關,請我後面有四位委員要發言,請我稍微述事以情,因為我其實是從早上做到現在大家就可以發現其實NCC幾乎因為通訊傳播是在我們生活當中已經是不可或缺的一環了所以這可能還真的不只是單純的就是說我們一些iPhone或什麼的其實單是今天早上我們通過那個打詐條例裡面的那個黑媒體裡面所涉及到的那個高風險事業的公告"},{"start":35984.592,"end":36010.188,"text":"那個公告就是委員會保留事項,假設委員會領到主責的話,那個公告就沒有辦法辦理,這個是補充我補充一分鐘就好了所以剛才那個修正動議裡面有說那個行政院要三個月內補足這個提名,所以我們剛才提說因為就是因為有這樣的設計,所以那個過渡條件應該留著,這個空窗期才不會太長,而且也是避免這個"},{"start":36010.976,"end":36036.864,"text":"行政的運作陷入癱瘓以上補充謝謝謝謝陳主委發言接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言好 謝謝我想剛剛聆聽了各黨團的意見還有我們NCC主管機關的意見我想首先闡明目前在我們國家的機關設置當中有三個獨立機關中選會、NCC跟公平會"},{"start":36037.944,"end":36064.134,"text":"那必須依照憲法必須超出坦白獨立行使職權的有包括考試院、法官跟監察院那因此我們可以來細細考究這幾個包括國家最高機關跟這些獨立機關他們之間的設計上有很大的相關性首先我們先看到我先問一個這個大家可以思考一下先回到這個現實的修正動議當中如果按照文藝解釋"},{"start":36065.234,"end":36082.921,"text":"任期四年,任滿得連任一次,並不得再任。從後面來限制前面,亦只是任滿連任一次者才不能再任,如果按照文議解釋。但是任滿沒有連任的人,他就不受不得再任的限制。如果嚴格來講,我要詢問修正動議他的原意,"},{"start":36087.182,"end":36116.322,"text":"是說不希望你連續做八年因為一任四年嘛你如果連續做八年了你就以後不能再來做了但是你做了四年建段後你可以再做四年建段後再做四年也就是說不得再任是針對連任一次的那八年的人那如果他的修法的原意是這樣的話那我認為或許不無有道理怎麼說呢因為我們注意到我們目前啊任期半半交錯的有大法官"},{"start":36117.162,"end":36129.807,"text":"有公平教育委員會．有NCC委員．那麼人數都不多公平教育委員七門．NCC七名．大法官十五名那麼大法官很抱歉我這邊可以稍微說一下因為當年的大法官改成"},{"start":36131.206,"end":36146.582,"text":"不能連任,但是任期半半交錯呢是在當年我在擔任第三屆國大代表的時候我們有參與到那時候將司法院大法官的人數改成任期半半交錯也就是說有兩批,有七人團跟八人團"},{"start":36147.843,"end":36165.198,"text":"其中的八人團只做四年,七人團先做八年之後就半半交錯,每四年就換一半目前NCG的設置也是這樣,它分成三人團跟四人團然後它是半半交錯的設計,每兩年就有一半到任"},{"start":36165.999,"end":36189.941,"text":"那麼為什麼要做半漫交錯呢?就是為了經驗傳承所以類似這樣的獨立機關他們非常重視的就是經驗傳承總不能你一次七個人通通都是新人所以如果說修正動力它的認滿得連任一次並不得再任是限制認滿連任的八年者不得再任但是如果只認四年"},{"start":36195.281,"end":36209.379,"text":"這其實也蠻符合獨立機關它的任期慢慢交錯的一個經驗傳承的精神所以我是覺得這個文藝設計上似乎有表達反映出獨立機關的需求但是我覺得比較可惜的是什麼"},{"start":36210.253,"end":36234.572,"text":"因為我們看到公平交友委員會跟我們的NCC它不是寫超出黨派之上獨立薪酬之權它是任一黨籍不得超過一半這是兩種的思維方式一個是要求他們完全獨立不得有黨派一個是任一黨派不得有一半的影響力那兩種方式都有一定的抑制黨派操控獨立機關的意涵那哪一種設計比較好"},{"start":36236.274,"end":36256.227,"text":"考試院、監察院、大法官必須超出黨外之上那麼NCC跟國民教育委員會任意黨籍不得超二分之一那可能都會達到同樣的效果那這一點是沒有錯但是我們看到了國民教育委員會裡面它有一個叫做缺位的時候"},{"start":36257.674,"end":36268.02,"text":"二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四"},{"start":36273.021,"end":36289.027,"text":"行政院長因於委員任滿前三個月前依第一項程序提名新任委員委員出缺時這個委員出缺是指不是按照任期屆滿的方式在委員任期間出缺繼任委員之任期至原任任期屆滿為止"},{"start":36291.333,"end":36305.147,"text":"這個設計很重要這個設計就確保半半交錯字不會被打亂目前我們大法官的半半交錯字為什麼會被打亂現在不是兩批現在是三批今年十月份有七位任滿"},{"start":36306.088,"end":36332.53,"text":"另外的八位他在未來的四年分兩次屆滿為什麼會造成這個結果?就是當年在補提名大法官的時候並沒有要求補的大法官、補提名的大法官他補到原屆滿任期為止譬如說有一個大法官做了六年出缺、辭職了新補的大法官應該只做兩年但是我們當時因為解釋的關係造成補提名的大法官一樣做八年"},{"start":36333.705,"end":36355.502,"text":"所以造成的結果就是目前大法官的任期的半半交錯是被打壞了那如果說NCC我們真的要回歸到制度上去保障他的獨立行使之權又能夠任期交錯又能夠經驗傳承那麼可能應該是在我們的修正動議當中比照我們公平交易委員會如果是委員出缺時"},{"start":36357.035,"end":36379.544,"text":"補聽名委員應至原委員任期屆滿為止那這個時候他補屆滿為止按照這個意思他如果沒有連任他空了四年四年後他可以再任那再任的話他就不會有持續的影響力每一個委員如果只能當四年而這四年他的委員任期又跟其他的委員是任期半半交錯的話其實每一個委員新任委員在前兩年"},{"start":36380.524,"end":36400.683,"text":"是有舊任委員已經做了兩年的比較資深我剛上來我一定先學嘛等到後面兩年我比較資深了新任委員才剛兩年那因為我們NCC跟公民教育委員會一樣它面對的產業環境都是在與時俱進的你脫離這個位置兩年你再回來再任其實你就跟菜鳥差不多啦"},{"start":36401.383,"end":36411.78,"text":"為什麼?你雖然有之前的運作經驗但是對最新的資訊、產業的消息你可能沒有一定的影響力你必須在當中去做一個經驗傳承、做一個學習之後你才能夠"},{"start":36413.17,"end":36434.694,"text":"才能夠再繼續進行所以如果我們考量到獨立機關的運作性格的話這裡面的修正動議說連任一次並不得再任如果語意解釋上是指連續做四、八年的人就不能再任了但是如果只做四年的人他未來還有機會再任這樣的話的確是有利於經驗傳承那至於說我們是不是要比照公平教育委員會去強調說"},{"start":36437.535,"end":36438.196,"text":"謝謝宗教兵委員接下來請翁曉林委員請"},{"start":36463.895,"end":36482.731,"text":"主席還有各位委員我想這一次的這個NCC第四條的新的提出的修正動議案那最主要我們之所以規定任滿的連任一次並不得再任是考慮到就是NCC它作為獨立機關它的委員一定要維持相當的這個"},{"start":36486.894,"end":36508.12,"text":"專業、獨立、中立客觀性等等的這些要件可是如果說一個委員他都已經連續做了八年我們很難去就是非常有可能就是會讓他就是長期的把持住NCC這個重要的職位然後會有可能會有濫權的一個情況"},{"start":36510.181,"end":36523.068,"text":"再說其實就我們現在總統的制度還有司法院大法官等等那些制度裡面其實都是只能夠連任一次然後就不得再任但為什麼要這樣的設計其實也是考慮到就是說這麼重要的職務那麼他會有這麼大的權利那當然就是對於整個通訊傳播還有新聞媒體的產業影響非常大如果說一個委員他已經做了八年其實我覺得也夠了再說我們國家的人才記憶"},{"start":36538.576,"end":36562.721,"text":"其實應該可以換不同的人然後來擔任NCC委員但這是我要講的還有就是說剛剛主委這邊有說石世豪當時就是在任可是我必須說石世豪主委為什麼會在任因為當時他第一屆當副主委的時候後來那個NCC組織法被大法官宣告為那一屆的組織是違憲的"},{"start":36564.921,"end":36579.936,"text":"因為當時他被認為是個違憲的這個組織．裡面他擔任副主委那他的任期當然跟後來他合憲之後又再提名當委員我覺得那是不一樣的事情所以他並不是所謂的在任的問題那至於說為什麼要刪除就是過度的條款"},{"start":36588.154,"end":36611.139,"text":"我要講就是說我自己當過NCC委員我並不認為江蘇任期制是有必要的還有就是說對於現任的委員對於已經離職的委員假設新委員沒有補提名上還要讓這個已經要離職的委員繼續在留任也沒有太大的意義因為他也不太可能會做出什麼重要的決定"},{"start":36612.599,"end":36632.756,"text":"他都已經要離開了那麼如果說還繼續讓他連任下去其實我覺得反而他做出來的決定可能還會遭受到之後業者的質疑因為你本來就是已經要離開的人然後竟然還可以繼續坐在那邊然後做出一些重大的決定所以我的想法是說我們現在的這個設計讓卸任的委員離開了就離開不需要說因為"},{"start":36639.401,"end":36646.068,"text":"新提名的委員還沒有補上然後繼續留任這是沒有道理的那麼再加上"},{"start":36647.781,"end":36671.11,"text":"主秘有講說NCC有很多重要的事情必須要經過委員會至少四個人以上的同意其實據我了解很多也都是行政規定你們自己的辦法修一修就好了把真正很關鍵重要再留到大委員會四個人去做決議就好了有一些事情其實就可以透過分組會議就可以去處分就可以做成了其實沒有太大的影響"},{"start":36672.21,"end":36697.144,"text":"那麼這個是我的看法,再加上現在NCC已經有些業務已經一倒數發布去了所以他們能夠處理的業務其實也沒有太多根本也不需要說有什麼經驗交錯傳承NCC裡面的專業的公務員事務官他們有足夠的能力可以去應付一些例行性的一些行政事務所以我就這個部分來講其實沒有什麼太大的關係"},{"start":36698.83,"end":36721.87,"text":"謝謝翁曉琳委員的發言,接下來請吳思瑤委員發言,後孟凱委員請準備。接著剛剛翁曉琳委員的說法,我覺得前後邏輯不通,我這樣來分享一下。剛剛您最後提到說NCC現在很多業務一波倒數發燴了,所以NCC委員很多事情分出去也沒那麼重要。"},{"start":36723.203,"end":36740.014,"text":"如果沒有那麼重要,你們又這麼在乎說做久了他會獨攬很大的權利,做久了可能就會產生你們比較會導向說他就傾向不獨立的這種弊病"},{"start":36741.147,"end":36765.818,"text":"我覺得這個邏輯是不通的﹖如果說你覺得NCC委員就是﹖而且您剛剛說您也做過NCC委員﹖你說如果沒有這個嚴任制的話﹖有些事情你們就叫行政處分就好了﹖不需要送到委員會來﹖那是不是您又小看了NCC委員的重要性﹖又覺得分出去行政處理就好﹖那如果照這個邏輯﹖那NCC委員不需要讓你們支柱必較到﹖"},{"start":36767.369,"end":36785.765,"text":"二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四"},{"start":36792.91,"end":36820.005,"text":"來產生NCC的委員也就是說組成一個審查會但是審查會呢是由各政黨在立法院的席次來推薦之那因為我過去在教育文化委員會我對於公式的模式公式去產生它的這個董監事的那個過程實在是歷歷在目啦就是因為公式的模式它就是組成一個審查會然後那個審查會的那個一樣"},{"start":36821.192,"end":36834.732,"text":"政黨比例．立法院的政黨比例．以至於公視的董監會．董監事難產了多久啊第四屆的時候嚴當了九百六十八天九百六十八天是幾年啊"},{"start":36835.694,"end":36859.649,"text":"第五屆的時候還好一點,延宕五十八天沒有說的是民進黨,他剛剛說他的版本第六屆的時候是延宕了九百五十七天這都是當初的公式模式所以我剛剛有請問,我有請教民進黨因為剛剛黃國昌總召的意思是他們似乎也有在,他們的還在帳上因為就是說他們的"},{"start":36860.506,"end":36873.506,"text":"公式條款他今天還是在這裡繼續協商我的理解是這樣不是完全就直接進入國民黨的臨時修正動議我的理解是這樣所以我要再次說公式的模式如果這樣的話就會"},{"start":36876.277,"end":36898.162,"text":"可能再重蹈覆轍讓NCC的委員透過一個審查會政黨比例產生的他就更難產那更因為他難產所以那個過渡條款就必須留著啊要不然延宕了三四年沒有辦法產生新的委員你又沒有過渡條款那你NCC就是唱空城你所有的業務他所有的業務"},{"start":36901.98,"end":36927.649,"text":"中央就沒有辦法推動我現在說的是民眾黨的版本民眾黨的版本是用公式模式但是公式模式的風險就是由立法院的政黨比例產生的這些審查會的委員會造成他很難再去推選出NCC的委員所以這樣的話那個過渡條款就必須再存在所以講回來我認為"},{"start":36929.284,"end":36949.587,"text":"我個人還是覺得公平會跟NCC委員一樣他是高度的專業性這個人才的珍惜性我自己認為第一項我覺得還是原來的版本比較好你去限制他再連任或是再回任我都覺得這"},{"start":36951.806,"end":36976.572,"text":"不太必要啦而且如果如剛剛翁小林委員說的NCC委員現在很多業務都分出去了沒那麼重要的話那你何必在乎所以我希望說是不是延任的條款對不起那個過渡條款是一定得保留的這是基於它的穩健的運作是一定需要的那至於剛剛的連任一次是要以八年之後就不能再"},{"start":36977.812,"end":36992.18,"text":"不能再任或者是四年他還可以再任這個在語意上確實是要釐清但如果維持國民黨的臨時修正動議的話既然有行政院長三個月補足那麼他的"},{"start":36992.867,"end":36994.027,"text":"謝謝吳思瑤委員的發言 接下來請洪孟凱委員發言 柯建民總召請準備好 感謝 院長我想"},{"start":37012.452,"end":37041.251,"text":"首先我們先看到這個連任一次並不得再任我覺得重點在於是立法精神大家去思考就是說我們行政機關的部分為什麼不管是總統也好上至總統下至這個地方首長或說這個相關都會有說這個連任一次就是其實我們的立法精神或說這個行政機關的限制就希望是說你最多是八年因為你手握權力在那個地方如果說時間太久了可能會有"},{"start":37043.595,"end":37070.78,"text":"所以相對來講我現在在講的是說立法精神你如果說我們每一個地方的條文裡面講的限連任一次基本上我們也希望是說他就是八年那會有說中間八年完之後再隔四年之後再回來這種任期的相對來講真的是少不能說沒有但是真的是少所以說我覺得回歸到這個立法精神所以這也是為什麼我們提出來是說連任一次並不得再任這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":37073.038,"end":37097.459,"text":"再來我必須要先講在這一次的NCC的這個人事提名其實卓榮泰行政院長跟之前的陳建仁行政院長在這個過程裡面就讓我們看到是說其實這個人事提名是真的有相對的沒有負到政治責任為什麼這樣講呢陳建仁院長是在四月三十號的時候來做這個提名"},{"start":37098.319,"end":37106.684,"text":"當時我們五月二十號新上任的時候我在五月三十一號我就質詢卓榮泰院長是說當時的這四位提名人選你有沒有看過"},{"start":37108.038,"end":37132.83,"text":"卓榮泰院長原話回答是說他沒有看過他也沒有跟陳建仁院長也沒有找他來討論因為那時候他也不是行政院長雖然說他已經被提名他已經被任命了賴清德總統也已經告知大家說他就是接下來的行政院長了但是他沒有討論而當時五月三十一號卓榮泰院長怎麼回答我呢他回答是說他會在最短時間內提出名單"},{"start":37134.468,"end":37153.259,"text":"最短時間提出名單後來我們等我們等到了我們的協商等到最新一次我剛才看到是七月九號黃國昌委員利用總質詢的時候在質詢我們卓榮泰院長卓榮泰院長才吐露心聲說他支持原案"},{"start":37154.039,"end":37176.624,"text":"所以從五月三十一號到七月九號其實中間有差不多一個半月的時間我們的行政部門其實我們一直在等啊你竟然五、三、一就告訴我們說你會提出新的名單了最短時間提出名單那代表是說你可能你會重新檢視這四個名單這四個名單也不是過去你討論的你會再提出名單但沒想到我們一直等不到行政部門的消息"},{"start":37177.6,"end":37200.595,"text":"直到七月九號還是我們委員利用總質詢的時間再問行政院長如果說今天我們委員沒有持續追的話是不是行政院也就無消無息了那變成說兩個機關難道就這樣子轉沒高墜沒老嗎所以其實說實在話我們當初講的本意是什麼你只要行政部門提出好的人選提出"},{"start":37201.856,"end":37209.923,"text":"社會大眾能夠公平幸福﹐能夠有聲望﹐能夠符合大家期待的這種專業的人選沒有人會有意見"},{"start":37212.272,"end":37233.184,"text":"執政黨、在野黨我們做的每一個決定也要對人民負責如果說你提出的這個名單﹐確實是他的﹐不管是經驗、資歷以及這個完整度都是讓大家覺得說他符合擔任NCC委員的條件的話我覺得在野黨也沒有反對的理由啊重點是你提出什麼樣的名單嘛如果好的名單出來﹐兩個禮拜我們也可以讓他通過啊但如果說這個名單不好的話﹐很抱歉"},{"start":37238.792,"end":37265.576,"text":"在野黨或者是立法院沒有背書我們沒有說義務一定要吃下去一定要吞下去的義務也因此一定會有審查那審查完之後就會希望行政院長要在相關的時間內給他補足那我們現在三個月內補足提名嘛可是在這個過程裡面我們也不能讓原有如果說他一直沒有辦法提出一個讓社會大眾滿意的名單的話難道原有的名單就可以持續的一直延任嗎?我也認為不是啊"},{"start":37266.761,"end":37289.582,"text":"陳耀祥主委在司法法治委員會我們也之前在交通委員會的時候我們也共事過很多討論資訊很多陳耀祥主委就有講過他到七三一他也要卸任回歸學校我那時候問他說如果說我們到七三一之前還是沒有辦法確定名單的話他說他不會留下來"},{"start":37290.723,"end":37314.669,"text":"他還是瀟灑的要離開所以我是請教說你是要自動請辭嗎因為委員也可以請辭但是我們現在講是說我們也避免陷入這樣的尷尬的局面也因此我們就說希望的是行政部門還是要負起責任就是你如果說提出好的名單你們自己先審慎立法院這邊來做一個審查那如果說"},{"start":37316.089,"end":37335.715,"text":"真的沒有辦法這名單符合大眾的期待的話退回你要趕快補齊但是在這過程裡面你原本的名單就不應該要延任我想這才符合一個雙方各自負責的態度並且能夠讓國家找到真正好的人才我再次強調好的人才我們國家很多了"},{"start":37337.025,"end":37345.534,"text":"我們國家很多了．所以只要提出好的人才．立法部門也不會說無條件的杯葛這就是精神以上謝謝"},{"start":37349.386,"end":37375.725,"text":"你們現在好像把很多題目都混在一起了什麼好人才、不好人才NCC明天送過來,你們這個記審網都全部不划嘛對不對?那這個...那不是你們是這樣講的嗎?好,我們現在講這個有關於在任的問題溫小英委員當然應該是第二屆NCC委員啦第一屆主委是蘇永青那副主委是十四豪"},{"start":37376.741,"end":37392.556,"text":"那時候是用政府黨比喻去審查委員,審查委員再選NC委員,所以那時候很清楚,因為十四條就是民進黨推薦的,我不認識他,人家說他不錯,我打電話給他。"},{"start":37394.213,"end":37415.007,"text":"他在東華大學教書,他說要考慮一下,後來過兩天再打電話給他,他說好,這邊我根本不能上,那時候有很多名單要看一下。但是後來六一三四四釋出來嘛,釋出來的時候在九十五年七月二十一號釋出來,六一三四四出來。"},{"start":37416.158,"end":37434.76,"text":"那時候實際上,大法官員也知道,這個違憲全部弄下來的話,馬上開天窗嘛。所以他兩年半以後,也要兩年半以後,九十五年七月二十一號設出來以後,他要叫他九十七年年底,叫他兩年半以後要改選。"},{"start":37435.621,"end":37453.751,"text":"換句話說這些雖然是基本繩子違憲但是也不能馬上沒有這就是剛才董事長小丑談的一半一半的一半一半裡面當然跟NCC大法官、中協會也是一樣所以他這個有要審查 不用這種機關完全不見"},{"start":37457.782,"end":37482.984,"text":"到後來第四屆的時候石草在當主任委員他那時候米漢去往草他寫債刃寫是債刃的他那時候要當主任委員的時候有點糾葛因為滿久說這個人以前剛進來AZ當副主任委員的時候是科技媒體推薦的這不可靠怎麼可以要當主任委員"},{"start":37483.965,"end":37505.614,"text":"後來他們討論了半天,還是給十二號當初認為,當初是寫災難所以我們今天談的就是說,不得災難這個事情,這個大家斟酌一下然後我還是認為,因為有銜接的問題,過度條款加了三個月,趕快再提出來,但是"},{"start":37507.591,"end":37525.768,"text":"怎麼剛才何某給你講半天,好像這樣提好的很慘,好壞不是,就請你同意錢啦,好壞怎麼可以看成是好壞?你是不是,你有成見嗎?你說,你說那個陳主委,你十四歲還沒到他,他也沒多嗎?他也沒多嗎?"},{"start":37531.392,"end":37552.606,"text":"你們網上跳出來點名說絕對不可以計審,你們是計審所以今天不要講半天好像你們好人才、壞人才、好人才你們一定要根本好壞是你心中的主見嘛你就是董運館寵下去,行使下去才見真章嘛"},{"start":37554.131,"end":37568.088,"text":"謝謝柯建民總召,現在我想所有的委員基本上都已經充分討論了那個原則上這樣,剛剛大家都一直提到說是當議院以後"},{"start":37569.932,"end":37570.853,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":37587.43,"end":37604.086,"text":"因為他連任一次以後其實這樣也就夠了啦就八年做完就夠了啦那這樣好不好那文字修改喔連任一次以連任者不得再任這樣就更清楚了以連任者不得再任"},{"start":37605.347,"end":37630.904,"text":"小林啊認滿的連任一次以連任者不得再任就是如果你做了八年你就永遠不能再來那通常這種情況會是在什麼情況就是說如果他做了四年覺得不錯要讓他當主委或副主委他就繼續做他是他們那一屆裡面最有經驗的但做完以後不會再回來了所以適合當主委副主委的就讓他連任不然的話他以後可以再任了可以讓經驗傳承把病改成以連任"},{"start":37632.807,"end":37638.583,"text":"不得在任那個病字拿掉然後變以為不得在任你們去改這個沒有什麼道理啊"},{"start":37640.031,"end":37646.436,"text":"民意代表跟行政機關就不一樣民意代表沒有任期限制民意代表沒有任期限制但是縣省長、總統、行政部門就有任期限制這東西很簡單啊"},{"start":37664.992,"end":37668.034,"text":"因為某種程度我真的覺得你這樣還是用我們的立法去限制了行政部門的人事任命權嗎?"},{"start":37691.506,"end":37709.406,"text":"所以我一直覺得八年不能再任的合理理由是什麼?我不太...就我們在討論NCC的這件事情...這樣好不好?我說明一下齁,如果說大家認同"},{"start":37710.567,"end":37728.023,"text":"獨立機關又要滿足他不會一直在任把持也又能經驗傳承那有幾個三個部分我是覺得要一起配套思考就是說除了連任一次以連任者不得在任這樣的情況之下另外一個為了維持半半交錯制"},{"start":37729.224,"end":37742.565,"text":"公平會原來那個文字呢（繼任委員出缺時（其繼任者自原任期屆滿為止（這個文字要放進來啦因為這個是有它道理的因為如果我們希望維持它的半半交錯這第二個部分"},{"start":37743.593,"end":37772.037,"text":"第三個部分,其實我還是要回到剛剛吳志堯委員所說的其實目前我們所說的行政院院長因為三個院內補足提名還是會有一個問題就是說為什麼因為公平會為什麼要維持他的那個其實公平會那個寫法還是有點小小的缺漏他說如果未能提任時原委員繼續至新任者接任為止"},{"start":37772.977,"end":37799.642,"text":"這樣的一個說法會有一個問題如果說它隔了半年新任者才來補那新任者的任期應該只剩三年半這樣才能完成半半交作制所以我大概是三個意見如果說希望保留獨立機關它的獨立職權不需要有人太久久任但是又希望能經驗傳承那半半交作制下有三個設計一個是以連任一次者不得再任第二個那麼"},{"start":37800.502,"end":37817.864,"text":"委員初學時即任者應至原任期屆滿為止（第三個（如果還是用原來公平會的設計（就是新任者（因為應顧會能提任者（原任者繼續做（但是新任者接任的時候（他只能補原來的任期（"},{"start":37819.046,"end":37831.777,"text":"這樣的話,我們可以讓他出缺的情況,空隙變短。那我要強調的是什麼?因為呢,你不可能一出缺,就馬上可以補到人。我現在還要提醒各黨團,他還有第五項。"},{"start":37841.886,"end":37864.38,"text":"他現在不是國安委員的任期的問題,還有一個第五項請問一下民進黨黨團能同意嗎?所以我現在宣布,如果我們現在這樣沒有辦法聚焦我們第四條的條文,我們就保留好不好?我們現在開始進入下一條,第五條我們先進入第五條李燕秀二十八人委員的提案請國民黨團請說明"},{"start":37876.84,"end":37880.183,"text":"請國民黨團哪一位代表說明在第七頁"},{"start":37901.378,"end":37918.791,"text":"五條是李燕秀委員所提出來的那主要的這個條文的內容就是說如果說是主委跟副主委都出缺的時候或是因故無法行使職權這時候就是由其他的委員互相推一人來擔任代理主委"},{"start":37920.015,"end":37937.231,"text":"我覺得這些很清楚為了要維持整個會務的運作需要有一個人來擔任主委翁曉琳委員代替李燕秀委員講的說明一下第五條李燕秀23位委員所提案的請問各黨團請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":37947.451,"end":37954.716,"text":"主委或副主委均出缺或沒有辦法行使職權的時候是誰來出任代理主委嘛 對不對"},{"start":37972.168,"end":37972.768,"text":"我們請NCC陳主委請表達。"},{"start":37989.821,"end":38017.538,"text":"我們NCC的委員是行政院長提名經過大院同意後由院長來任命那原來其實我們前幾屆我想翁委員很清楚那時候是委員互推那委員互推後來我們NCC坦白講內鬥也很兇委員之間所以後來國民黨在執政的時候就把它修改為在提名的時候就由行政院長指定一人為主委一人副主委那我們現在現行條文"},{"start":38019.199,"end":38036.153,"text":"前面還是院長來任命結果你如果說要出缺的代理說變成有違護推這個在整個正當性上或民主上好像有點矛盾而且這樣的修法好像有點走回頭路我是建議說是不是可以維持現行的條文"},{"start":38038.82,"end":38054.529,"text":"委員請再次發言是,我想李燕秀委員他提出這個條文的意思是因為也有看到當我們的NCC主委是由行政院院長所指定之後其實NCC它就已經不再像是一個合一制機關而是變成首長制了嘛"},{"start":38056.85,"end":38082.159,"text":"主委的權力很大﹖這也都是大家就想到說現在的獨立機關哪還算是一個合一制機關﹖它基本上就變成首長制﹖所以在這樣的一個情況之下﹖其實如果主委跟副主委同時出缺﹖到目前為止沒有發生過﹖主委跟副主委同時出缺﹖但如果說有同時出缺的情況﹖當然由委員們之間互推一個最有經驗﹖或是最能服眾的人來當主委﹖"},{"start":38083.139,"end":38085.06,"text":"來代理主委．而且這也是短暫的時間"},{"start":38098.26,"end":38116.02,"text":"我們前一任的詹廷宜主委後來請辭,翁副主委代理後他又請辭,說我是委員裡面被院長指名為代理主委,就是適用第五條的,所以我們已經有發生過這件事情。以前適用複推過嘛。以前適用複推,後來是改成用第五條就實定了。那會搞得很亂嘛。有啦,有啦。"},{"start":38120.692,"end":38147.293,"text":"我都走貨我都知道這個是這樣啦歐元基本上這是行政院長提名的人事前所以你不要他來指定誰來當主委那個也是他的人事前啦那互推就不是了吧所以我還是這整個邏輯是怎麼樣都怎樣就怎樣啦不要再去硬去改這個行動也很少啦"},{"start":38149.827,"end":38160.481,"text":"我想大家都不要改好了,重點在第四條麻煩重複就不用直接"},{"start":38162.702,"end":38181.335,"text":"對,沒有,就是因為才需要反駁一下剛剛溫委員說的我真的對於您的邏輯是不是跟我同,就是不好意思不再講就是說剛剛溫委員說如果是再由行政院長再去任命的話這樣就變成首長制,我不知道在說什麼他原本從頭到尾就是合議制啊"},{"start":38182.625,"end":38197.911,"text":"他從頭到尾就是合議制不是說行政院長在主委或副主委出缺的時候行政院長在指定之後就改變了他現在在議決所有的業務的方式沒有為什麼會因為這樣就變成首長制我不懂這個邏輯是什麼"},{"start":38200.282,"end":38201.624,"text":"李燕秀委員版本的精神還是在於是說應該"},{"start":38215.322,"end":38233.133,"text":"因為NCC的委員他們就是一個合意制而且我們也希望是他超然獨立那如果說真的有發生這樣的情況的話因為他已經是委員了也因此他沒有已經沒有在審查不像說之前第四條沒有錯是行政院長提名的時候指定一個人是主委一個是副主委"},{"start":38233.453,"end":38255.88,"text":"但是他有經過一個審查系統就是有經過立法院的一個審查所以他不一定是擔任主委他不一定擔任副主委他不一定到時候一定通過但現在這個情況第五條是說他們都已經是委員了如果說有真的發生這個情況的話你再由行政院長任命的話這沒有任何的審查機制就沒有任何審查機制說可以"},{"start":38257.199,"end":38265.511,"text":"要求行政院長不要指定其中一個人為主委而是因為他們既然已經是委員了就由委員自己互推"},{"start":38266.397,"end":38289.482,"text":"我想這個也是符合相關的一個精神,其實很多的團體都有。但是我還是拜託,既然我們大家坐下來草野協商,大家互相,我們從今天早上那麼早到現在,我覺得院長也很辛苦,院長也很辛苦。真的大家協商的代表都不用說去指責,好像指桑罵槐或講說別人邏輯怎麼樣。"},{"start":38290.362,"end":38317.622,"text":"我覺得貶低別人不會把自己形成更高尚我們就是就事論事所以本席講的是說我們可以不堅持我想彥秀委員我們還是表達為什麼講那麼多是因為我想表達的是李彥秀委員的提案有他的意義但是如果說真的沒有辦法取得共識我們在這裡的時候不堅持而且這個情況本來也很少見你說主委不見然後又副主委不見然後再互退這個情況很少見我也承認"},{"start":38318.402,"end":38344.963,"text":"但是確實歷史上有發生過但是請不要否定別的委員的提案不管是提案的委員還是我們今天坐在這邊的協商代表我希望大家互相尊重好不好謝謝謝謝洪孟凱幹事長我們就不再發言我們先不堅持了好不好那跟各位黨團報告那我們第五條那國民黨也這邊就提出了一個不予修正我們維持現行條文現在我們進入第七條"},{"start":38347.585,"end":38359.372,"text":"我們請國民黨黨團賴世保二十四位委員提案請國民黨團請說明林思明委員請發言好謝謝院長像第七條是賴世保委員他的提案"},{"start":38360.424,"end":38383.111,"text":"那委員他的提案是講說本會委員擔任職務前三年虛承未出任政黨或其他政治團體的職務他的重點在這裡但是剛才他有打他已經來電了他說他不堅持他不堅持所以我想我們也就這一條因為他不堅持我們也不用再做再多討論了"},{"start":38384.011,"end":38398.921,"text":"好,那現在提案的委員不堅持了,那我們如果各位黨團同意的話,我們第七條不予修正,維持現行條文。好,謝謝我們現在第八條,傅坤祺等四十一位委員所提案。麻煩請國民黨團請說明。傅坤祺委員。"},{"start":38408.027,"end":38424.225,"text":"好,我們再請林思明第八條,我想我們復...你那頭線我忘記了首席副主委長請林思明首席副主委長謝謝院長我想第八條呢因為我們基於說第一項的規定原本的條文"},{"start":38425.006,"end":38449.847,"text":"講說NCC要依法獨立行使職權（而且委員應超出黨派以外獨立來行使職權（於任職期間也要謹守利益迴避的原則（不得參與政黨活動（或擔任政府機關或公營事業的職務（或者是顧問（並不得擔任通訊傳播事業或團體（任何專任或兼任職務（所以我們在第二項就規定說（"},{"start":38451.128,"end":38464.12,"text":"NCC委員在離職三年後不得擔任與其離職前五年內之職務直接相關之營利事業的董事及監察人這就是有關於利益迴避的條款"},{"start":38465.885,"end":38485.157,"text":"那我們在這個第八條針列說亦不得擔任公職人員或代表政黨參選公職人員我想這一條的立法精神就在於說因為第一項已經講說NCC的委員要超出黨派不得參加政黨活動"},{"start":38486.258,"end":38510.356,"text":"或者政府機關的相關的一些公營事業的職務．已經有很明確這樣的規定．所以我們從第一項而來．我們認為如果他離職之後．他也不應該去擔任政黨所推薦的．去代表政黨來參選公職人員．或者是擔任其他的公職人員．所以能力法精神在這裡．"},{"start":38512.699,"end":38540.99,"text":"希望他就是要超出黨派以外啦請吳思耀委員請發言思明委員第一項確實是他在任的時候他當然要獨立於黨派之外這個沒有問題第二項的前半段再說他離任的時候的旋轉門條款對於相關業務也不得這個也沒有問題這都是現行條文但是就是在第二項的最後面你們要擴大線說對於離任者他的"},{"start":38542.55,"end":38568.947,"text":"權利就是他不可以去出任公職人員不可以參選這已經就違反憲法對於工作權選舉權的部分這個完全是違反憲法對於每個而且他是離任的喔他已經離開了但是基於旋轉門條款利益迴避我不能去從事電信業的什麼東西這沒有問題可是你限縮了他的參政權參政權是憲法所保障的"},{"start":38569.827,"end":38581.74,"text":"所以這個在委員會討論的時候我也分享過我的觀點所以這個東西是一定要慎重思考我們不能夠去限制一個離任者他的參政權利"},{"start":38591.345,"end":38601.103,"text":"沒有關係啦,這本的雞髓不在這裡啦這本的雞髓不在這裡柯總召講話了,我們尊重他一下嘛好不好"},{"start":38603.666,"end":38629.555,"text":"跟各位黨團報告我們第八條條文的不予修正維持現行條文現在接下來第十條請富坤吉委員四十一人、洪孟凱二十五位委員提案請富坤吉總高請說明我想這個重點還是在他的總額嘛他事情的決定必須要在總額總數的過半為之啊基本上就這個重點"},{"start":38635.799,"end":38650.574,"text":"差不多吧?用總額了是吧?我要提醒大家目前憲法所定的國家最高機關屬於合一制有緣額的包括了立法院113名、監察院"},{"start":38654.927,"end":38682.636,"text":"檢察院是二十九名．考試院七到九名．然後呢．司法院大法官十五名．那所有這些是屬於這樣名額．有法定名額的機關．他在行使職權的時候．通常不會以法定名額．為計算的緣額．他會以現有名額．包括我們立法院．大家去看徵修條文、憲法．"},{"start":38683.576,"end":38708.298,"text":"我們立法院所有的決議都是以全體委員過半數那全體委員怎麼計算呢?絕對不是一百一十三位因為一百一十三位立法委員經常會有缺額﹖有人辭職﹖或者說有人因故去職等等等因此我們的全體委員是以全現有委員那在這種情況之下如果我們要以法定緣額來作為一個合意式機關的緣額的話"},{"start":38710.74,"end":38735.448,"text":"那恐怕．恐怕．會有限制．所以我是建議說．這個還是維持．維持以現有委員．現有委員．現有委員．而不只以法定員額．現有委員．那麼剛剛．我知道民進黨．可以請民進黨來表達一下．因為我知道立法院的委員．額數是以應僱、去職、出缺．就辭職．職跟亡僱者都不記錄．請請"},{"start":38740.055,"end":38759.693,"text":"我想這條的精神其實跟我之前提案要修改憲法訴訟法明定大法關係有總額的意義是一樣的就是我們希望能夠對於一些重大的處分案還有像憲法判決這種那麼影響重大的案子還是必須要由多數的委員來決議那麼如果說"},{"start":38761.995,"end":38764.317,"text":"謝謝翁小玲委員發言台灣民眾黨目前民進黨、國民黨都表達意見了請問台灣民眾黨有寶貴意見嗎?"},{"start":38793.035,"end":38801.018,"text":"沒有意見?好,台灣民進黨基本上都是開放態度,柯總統你要表達意見嗎?總共七個吧,那五個總共一半那是多少?四個是吧?三個"},{"start":38820.376,"end":38833.184,"text":"以這次的情況,如果說有四個委員卸任,只剩下三個委員,那你的意思是說三個委員裡面再去投票過半,不是兩個委員就已經決定一個重要的案子,這樣適合嗎?"},{"start":38838.048,"end":38863.635,"text":"麻煩NCC陳主委請說明報告各位委員我們現在的運作方法依照我們會議規則來講就是現有總共七位然後要過半一定要四位所以我們剛才講嘛如果只有剩下三位我們委員會沒有辦法組成合法的委員會沒有辦法去做重大決議就是這樣子所以我們還是以四位為我們現在會議自己的內部定的會議規則是用四個至少要四個才有辦法"},{"start":38864.857,"end":38870.416,"text":"讓委員會合法組成這樣子所以他的修正就是現行的嗎?"},{"start":38872.597,"end":38898.424,"text":"其實憲刑是一樣的,可以不用修啊,憲刑的總額就是這樣子,就是法定總額。對啊,那個,要說給,翁委員他在解釋給您聽,就是說憲制,現在的文字就是您說的那樣,就是法定總額了。翁委員連續舉例了好幾個極端的,每個案子,主委跟副主委都不在。就是憲刑就是這樣,就是以法定總額來處理。還是四個嘛,翁委員講的四個沒有錯。像我們當時齁,"},{"start":38899.844,"end":38916.005,"text":"主委跟副主委都出缺我當代理主委我們還是五個嘛可是我們要如果通過那個行政處還剩四個才可以那就是我們的會議規則就是以七票裡面的四票才有過半來做所以現在是議會四個送進來你至少要同一個要四位我們就這樣定"},{"start":38918.067,"end":38941.602,"text":"現在的規定它是講的是因以委員的總額過半可是還是回到我們之前講的那個總額就有很多的解釋它到底是指法定的總額還是指現有的總額就不明確嘛委員總額就是七個委員總額的七個的一半就是這樣啦"},{"start":38942.623,"end":38943.364,"text":"現在有三個嘛,明天上四個你來同意一下"},{"start":38960.522,"end":38983.18,"text":"剛才主委的意見是說他們的會議規則是他們的會議規則就他們一期會一定要四個人的決議才可以成立是不是是這樣嗎所以但是不是我們現行的法律的規定是他們自己的會議規則所以我們現在這樣修法就是說一定要你的法定總額就符合你們的會議規則這種立法就符合你的會議規則"},{"start":38984.141,"end":38986.542,"text":"第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":39006.329,"end":39007.71,"text":"我了解翁委員的意思了"},{"start":39034.941,"end":39061.759,"text":"那麼如果現有的計算就是以七名法定總額為計算標準那你要把它寫清楚寫死了那麼配套就是什麼配套就是對於原來原任、延任的部分要放進來不然的話就會造成缺額造成不能開會所以如果我們堅持要以法定總額七名為整個會議的計算的母數那麼我們要確保這七名盡量減少他有缺額的情況"},{"start":39062.62,"end":39081.751,"text":"所以原來的延任規定就是為了運作啦!不是!這是完全相關的事情!這就是重點!因為如果你那個過渡條款沒有保留的話,它永遠沒有辦法運作!它永遠沒有辦法運作!"},{"start":39084.625,"end":39101.874,"text":"沒有人要讓機關不能運作重點在於是行政部門你的提名的你有三個月的提名啊你可以我再一次強調柯總召再一次強調這一個人NCC的人事提名我們都很不是不是提的不好您先聽我說"},{"start":39104.383,"end":39132.712,"text":"我們從四月三十號那個時候我們就一直強調說你應該陳建仁院長因為你已經預期得到你五二零就是卸任了你就是一個看守內閣所以你應該要把你的提名人選的提名權應該要尊重新任的總統跟新任的行政院長當時我們在黨一直強調這件事情因為這是責任政治但是陳建仁院長還是在四月三十號他就提名了而這四個人選進來之後卓龍泰院長根本不知道"},{"start":39133.192,"end":39159.079,"text":"所以在五月三十一號我們質詢的時候卓榮泰院長才講是說他會最短速度補人選到了七月九號的時候才講說他覺得這四個人選可以所以這中間一個半月時間行政部門完全沒有尊重我們立法部門說實在不是沒有尊重在野黨是連民進黨你也沒有尊重為什麼?因為行政院他就沒有主動告知立法院到底他這人選是誰你懂我意思嗎?"},{"start":39159.739,"end":39184.276,"text":"所以我們才強調是說其實行政部門他有三個月的時間可以提名人那你就應該要利用那三個月而且不是我到任期到了之後我才去找人嘛其實你從今年二月你已經知道說NCC委員七月三十一號到了你今年二月、三月的時候你就可以陸續的去收集人選了不是嗎所以行政部門有大把大把時間壓到最後一天"},{"start":39186.597,"end":39210.851,"text":"因為最後一天他才提出來所以好院長我比較結論啦齁如果說照剛剛主委您講的確實是委員總額的一半就是一定要四人所以你不管你現在委員現有的委員人選五人你也要通過四票四人也要通過四票好那這樣子我們把它釐清的話那本因為這一個版本第十條有我跟"},{"start":39211.852,"end":39222.477,"text":"副總召的版本那我不堅持我的版本我們就是照原但是前面的部分第四條嚴認的部分我們絕對堅持本來就是這樣嘛"},{"start":39232.349,"end":39241.959,"text":"那現在提案的委員、洪孟凱委員不堅持,那現在...我如果不堅持的話,我們第十條就..."},{"start":39255.629,"end":39262.509,"text":"那本來就總和了文子掌握度很差"},{"start":39275.988,"end":39293.463,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們現在提案委員、副分局委員、洪孟凱委員就不堅持我們第十條不予修正維持現行條文報告各位黨團所有的幹部我們現在立法院黨團協商我跟各位報告一下協商結果"},{"start":39294.203,"end":39318.363,"text":"時節一百一三年七月十一日,星期四下午兩點三十分,地點一廠三樓。三、協商主題,並案協商。一、司法及法制交通委員會報告並案審查委員傅坤琦等三十三人凝聚國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案。傅坤琦等四十一人凝聚國家通訊傳播委員會組織第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":39319.892,"end":39336.862,"text":"侯孟凱等二十五位委員凝聚國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案．翁小林等十八位委員凝聚國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案等四案．二、"},{"start":39337.623,"end":39354.618,"text":"藍絲堡等二十四位委員（凝聚國家通信傳播委員會組織法第四條及第七條條文修正草案（三、李燕秀等二十三位委員（凝聚國家通信傳播委員會組織法第四條及第五條條文修正草案（四、協商結論（"},{"start":39355.839,"end":39383.213,"text":"一、第四條保留送院會處理二、第五條、第七條、第八條及第十條均不予修正維持現行條文三、其餘照審查會審查結果通過四、院會進行處理時非保留部分宣讀後均予以通過保留部分暫保留保留部分院會進行處理前由各黨團推派一人"},{"start":39383.993,"end":39391.536,"text":"一、臺灣民眾黨黨團．二、民進黨黨團．三、國民黨黨團．順序輪流發言．每人發言時間三分鐘．發言完畢後．即進行保留條文之處理．請問我們黨團協商結論．大家有沒有寶貴．請吳思瑤委員發言"},{"start":39401.761,"end":39425.532,"text":"委員長,我是要確認一個事情,因為剛剛在第四條的時候,我們看到的是,因為民進黨是維持現行條文,然後國民黨是用今天用一個修正動議,那因為我不知道民眾黨的案子還是不是也是表決的標的,還是您就是﹖到目前為止是﹖還是有民眾黨的那個公式模式還在﹖到目前為止是﹖你公式模式還在啊﹖還在,對,我要確認這一個﹖因為違憲的不好了吧﹖"},{"start":39427.352,"end":39442.18,"text":"沒有啦,你有你的立場跟主張,我尊重啦那但,你就回去看613,什麼叫做提名前被實質剝奪再一次謝謝NCC的陳主委,還有一整天花很多時間,很辛苦啊謝謝各位觀眾,我們先簽這晚,請離席,我們就繼續往下"},{"start":39454.574,"end":39457.016,"text":"我們休息五分鐘,下面繼續休息五分鐘後繼續向下還有下面的條文"},{"start":39470.323,"end":39470.743,"text":"那民眾黨在哪裡?"},{"start":39500.034,"end":39517.346,"text":"誰啊?沒有辦法?明天再來?因為那很多同仁很關心你現在幫你找不到人,我們不能這樣搞,真的我跟妳講不是,妳要看情況,我那種威脅都會來,這個不能這樣搞嘛,海多倫都很關心"},{"start":39782.159,"end":39787.345,"text":"總編證委員會官卿都要來啊好,你今天在這裡沒夠召喚"},{"start":39811.31,"end":39836.583,"text":"麻煩請那個麻煩請那個會議室安靜一下我宣布一下那三個黨團都共同決議今天晚上就我們今天朝野協商看到這裡為止因為新住民法案有很多委員都關心所以我們明天早上等院本部的討論事項結束之後再麻煩各黨團以及所有的閣員跟官員我們再來討論剩下的朝野協商好幾個"},{"start":39837.623,"end":39850.177,"text":"好幾個法案．包括新住民法案．還有其他新租金送的好幾位約估在十點半左右也請大家參考我們今天超越協商就到此為止再一次感謝各位列席的觀看"}]}},{"id":"16093","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16093","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcc95e053c453ffb768bd51cfe4d9463a428aaa308df9ea3737d5a46af9ce2822f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-11","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-11T08:30:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T11:58:59+08:00","duration":12485,"影片長度":"03:28:05","委員發言時間":"08:30:54 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25,"text":"三之二條的條文草案。最主要一百六十三之一條是為了改正棄保潛逃罪犯竟能夠在無裁"},{"start":2341.278,"end":2355.076,"text":"制裁罰則的荒謬規範現狀並永效降低棄保潛逃的誘因及機會,針對棄保潛逃者科與刑責,五年以下有期徒刑並科一百萬以下的罰金,並且被告經"},{"start":2356.317,"end":2373.944,"text":"法院許可停止羈押而命應遵守一定事項者仍違反相關命令則科與三年以下有期徒刑並科三十萬以下罰金另外增訂第163之二條則是鼓勵被告自首或是自動到案以節省"},{"start":2374.764,"end":2392.886,"text":"有限的司法資源並鼓勵被告自新因此增訂此條。所謂自動到案無論是傳喚到案或是通緝中自動投案應該都可以屬之。本期剛剛看了法務部的相關的意見我想針對163之一以及163之二各有看法。"},{"start":2393.246,"end":2410.974,"text":"但一百六十三之二看得出來法務部是相對來講比較正面的一個回應是不是這個樣態或說一定時間裡面應該要給予這樣子的一個自守自動到案的一個期限本事也予以尊重也因此我們也希望能夠再進一步的做這樣子實質的討論"},{"start":2412.535,"end":2439.034,"text":"法務部可以提出相關方向或是請法務部在我們逐條審查的時候提出實務上怎麼樣一定時間裡面能夠有自動投案的一個期限那163之一我們想可能要凝聚更多共識但我們的初衷以及出發點都還是希望能夠改善過去荒謬的一些狀況而進一步讓我們國家更能夠正常穩定以上謝謝"},{"start":2441.278,"end":2442.918,"text":"主席各位委員今天司法法制委員會"},{"start":2470.168,"end":2496.907,"text":"立經了多年的等待我們今天終於排審了有關於刑法相關修正條文針對妨礙司法公正罪的審查走到今天這一步真的等了非常非常的久2017年司改國事會議向台灣社會做出了莊嚴的承諾說"},{"start":2500.472,"end":2522.923,"text":"我們針對權貴的犯罪屢屢發生棄保潛逃我們針對有權有勢的人竟然可以透過關說司法來幫特定政治上有影響力甚至富商"},{"start":2530.08,"end":2555.237,"text":"來進行改變不管是法官還是檢察官他們本來應該要依法審判依法訴追犯罪所作的決定這對於司法的公正性是一個嚴重的挑戰也是一個嚴重的傷害法律之前人人平等"},{"start":2556.218,"end":2581.235,"text":"是一個法治國家所應該遵循的基本原則。然而當我們看到當一般的社會大眾感受到權貴在我們的刑事司法體系當中果然不一樣不管是貪賭金融重大的經濟犯罪"},{"start":2582.472,"end":2601.432,"text":"面對這些權貴我們司法體系所表現出來的竟然是判得慢跑得快即使最後被抓到了還可以早早的就假釋出獄"},{"start":2603.644,"end":2626.653,"text":"這樣的狀況已經對於我國整個刑事司法體系的公正性產生非常嚴重的威脅在整個反貪腐法制當中我們目前是希望透過貪污自罪條例的修正來予以改正今天"},{"start":2628.137,"end":2656.665,"text":"我們先邁出了第一步而這第一步我們要來處理有關於不法關說竟然膽敢運用自己的影響力去關說法官檢察官這樣的亂象必須要遏止對於棄保潛逃的人也必須要讓他付出法律上面的代價不可以再讓"},{"start":2658.244,"end":2685.711,"text":"棄保潛逃毫無成本這麼荒謬的情況在台灣繼續蔓延。期待我們今天所提出來的條文能夠得到各位委員的支持也希望我們的法務部我們的主管機關能夠從善如流想一想2017年做出的承諾我們2024年在這邊才在排案審議討論"},{"start":2688.191,"end":2712.672,"text":"法案司法公正罪台灣社會等了太久了。二致權貴司法就從這一步開始。謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。那我們接著請機關代表報告時間五分鐘。喔,好好。不好意思。好,那我們接下來請羅智強委員進行提案說明。"},{"start":2720.051,"end":2747.922,"text":"在台灣最大的一個司法笑話就是關說司法竟然是無罪的關說司法竟然是無罪的欸幾十年來在台灣為什麼大家對司法公信力對司法不信任就是因為有權判生無權判死的關說司法行為不斷的存在啊"},{"start":2749.788,"end":2777.198,"text":"遠的不說先講近的最近鄭文燦社攤風風火火壓案七年外界都在疑惑為什麼壓案七年是不是當初在發動案件的檢察官那時候的邱泰山部長你到底有沒有干涉司法防害司法公正的行為在裡面"},{"start":2778.668,"end":2800.236,"text":"這個部分雖然目前還不得而知只是引人疑鬥而已但是邱泰山本身就有關說司法的這個豐功偉業在曾經跟彭坤業檢察長然後去施壓檢察官對於富商的一個稅捐的案子然後呢然後呢"},{"start":2804.997,"end":2814.063,"text":"沒有然後因為關說司法無罪啊就算他關說司法你能拿他怎麼樣沒事啊我們的司法法制委員會我們的柯建民總召也是關說司法的慣犯啊之前也發生關說司法的事情啊一樣總召一樣到現在也沒事啊"},{"start":2832.682,"end":2854.317,"text":"所以今天司法最大的恥辱之一就是竟然在台灣關說司法是無罪的所以關說司法恨刑我只問我們平民百姓你有能力去用你手中的權力去影響法官的判決影響司法官檢察官的辦案嗎你沒有的"},{"start":2855.902,"end":2874.633,"text":"你只有高官選決擁有政治職務權利的人你才有能力接近法官接近檢察官施壓法官施壓檢察官因此要確保司法公信今天關說司法防害司法公正罪的立法就顯得非常重要"},{"start":2875.578,"end":2903.991,"text":"另外關於棄保潛逃罪我今年2月17號就開記者會希望能夠來去立法今天很高興終於我們開始來討論這件事情我們的立法要往前推進了一步這兩件事棄保潛逃罪跟關說司法跟妨礙司法公正罪都是非常重要的法案希望我們今天能夠達成共識讓我們的相關法制進步往前更推一步謝謝"},{"start":2906.586,"end":2913.379,"text":"謝謝羅委員接下來我們請機關代表報告報告時間五分鐘請法務部徐次長報告"},{"start":2920.154,"end":2943.208,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀代表本部列席報告並被質詢深感榮幸感謝各位委員長期對脫逃棄保潛逃等妨礙司法公正罪相關法制的關心及努力本部對於委員所提修正草案之目的均表支持贊同"},{"start":2944.529,"end":2967.9,"text":"確保國家司法權及刑法權正確行使發現事實真相維護司法公信力是我們共同的目標本部已嚴提刑法部分條文修正草案經過行政院11次審查會議後已形成具體共識以下僅就委員所提四個版本草案內容"},{"start":2969.942,"end":2993.813,"text":"針對脫逃罪、棄保檢逃及司法關稅罪之法制面上做重點說明,敬請指教。第一,刑法脫逃罪本罪從刑法制定以來從未修正,卻有因時空需求調整刑度之必要。那部分委員修正草案主張提高第一項普通脫逃罪刑度"},{"start":2994.493,"end":3011.765,"text":"這部分與本部所提草案方向相同至於第二項刑度是否一併提高提高到多少涉及罪責相當性衡量這部分可再討論斟酌調整第二祭保潛逃罪部分"},{"start":3012.489,"end":3038.179,"text":"有部分草案是以傳居未到發布通緝作為認定棄保潛逃的構成要件但棄保潛逃本質上應以具有積極逃亡常理事證為前提通緝本身並未等同於棄保潛逃行為直接科以刑責規範是否恰當請再通盤考量另外"},{"start":3038.7,"end":3068.036,"text":"部分草案版本認為如果是犯重罪而棄保檢逃應該加重其刑但在實務上有時候所犯的重罪還沒有判決確定棄保檢逃卻已經要判決了這樣的時間差可能導致審判機關根本無法認定是否要加重其刑反而失去委員提案加重程度的立法目的另外也有部分委員提到"},{"start":3068.916,"end":3095.036,"text":"主張如果所棄保遣逃之罪最後被判決無罪或不起訴處分時就不處罰這一個被告的棄保遣逃行為然而棄保遣逃立法目的是在考量如果棄保遣逃只沒入保證金沒有刑責等於是讓被告付費購買自由讓被告可以透過"},{"start":3096.847,"end":3122.672,"text":"逃亡藏匿而削弱檢察官努力收集得來之證據基於這樣的思考如果個案中被告藉由棄保潛逃拖延收證的時效間接影響證據滅失一方面導致原本所犯案件只能不起訴處分或無罪另一方面又同時因為適用草案不法規定更享有不處罰棄保潛逃的利益這樣結果"},{"start":3125.553,"end":3150.238,"text":"反而導致的變相鼓勵棄保潛逃行為也請務必再通盤考量。第三）有關司法關說罪部分委員版本也納入我們妨礙司法公正罪章的處罰規定回應施改國事會議結論這部分本部聲表贊同但考量法官跟檢察官職權不限於裁判跟處分"},{"start":3151.298,"end":3169.379,"text":"例如法官也會負責審查搜索票跟羈押票那檢察官也要對是否上訴或撤回上訴做決定所以在構成要件上如果只限於關說草案所列的法官裁判檢察官處分"},{"start":3170.24,"end":3193.021,"text":"是否會有所缺落也請斟酌考量以完善我們妨礙司法公正罪的相關法制以上報告請各位委員指教是否等行政院版送大院後並按審查已求完備讓我們一起捍衛司法公正及連結性回應人民對司法改革的期待謝謝"},{"start":3197.125,"end":3200.126,"text":"其餘機關報告就請參閱書面機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容列入公報記錄"},{"start":3209.605,"end":3227.72,"text":"提案說明跟機關報告都已經進行完畢我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘均不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在先請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":3239.954,"end":3264.257,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩有請市長麻煩市長委員長市長好台灣社會啊退役有權有勢的人啊竟然可以去關說司法真的是深惡痛絕啊一般的小老百姓不管是走進地檢署還是走進法院都是誠惶誠恐"},{"start":3266.084,"end":3292.018,"text":"三）委任律師當他們的代理人或辯護人來主張他們訴訟上面的權益。但是啊卻有一群明明在這個社會上面已經掌握了相當高權力的人包括我們的法官法官去關說司法也包括了我們位高權重的政治人物去關說檢察官"},{"start":3294.195,"end":3322.224,"text":"不要對他所涉入的刑事案件來提起上訴。更離譜的還有幹過法務部部長的邱泰山去找桃園地檢署的檢察長蓬坤業去關說幫富商逃稅五億的案子關說明明沒認罪還要關說叫檢察長去施壓桃園地檢署的檢察官讓他進行認罪協商"},{"start":3324.779,"end":3344.885,"text":"這些過去實際上面的亂象讓我們行政院院長卓榮泰前幾天在院會備詢的時候說台灣是民主國家不會有押案的事情我是不知道他是脫離現實了還是準備要說謊"},{"start":3348.746,"end":3375.577,"text":"這明明吶全部都是具體發生過的事情。針對這些案子最後的結果是怎麼樣?次長你知道嗎?有任何人受到任何刑事處罰嗎?請教次長。沒有。沒有吧?是。這樣子的結果我相信吶沒有人可以接受這是為什麼我們今天"},{"start":3376.704,"end":3404.99,"text":"要來這邊審不法關說罪防礙司法公正罪不可以讓這些違法濫權的人繼續逍遙法外享受一般人所沒有的特權第二個問題在權貴犯罪的脈絡裡我們常常發現我們的權貴犯罪司法審判程序通常拖很久拖到五年十年十五年的"},{"start":3407.517,"end":3435.296,"text":"好不容易確定了人卻跑了人卻跑了讓我們的刑事刑法權沒有辦法獲得落實這也是為什麼我們今天要處理棄保險逃罪的問題其實這兩件事在司改國是會議2017年的時候都做出了決議到現在延役了七年了"},{"start":3436.232,"end":3460.514,"text":"市長對這樣的速度你能夠接受嗎?報告委員我想法律的修改有時候也不是完全看實效因為學術上的假說以說學者很多人有不同的見解我們最近討論也是一樣一個法律上的用語可能會有不同的解釋所以"},{"start":3460.894,"end":3486.182,"text":"才會開了11次的一個協商會議我講在制定的過程中的確是大家很用心但是就是要求慎重所以才會有這樣不過這一個法案現在已經大概都文字上都大概都完成現在要成合然後再送到司法院然後再會選以後很快的應該就會送到那個大院來好我們希望啦齁"},{"start":3489.848,"end":3517.182,"text":"針對這些明顯的法律的漏洞幫權貴犯罪開的後門其實討論的越久拖的越久這個後門存在的就越久只要不完成立法我就繼續幹我就繼續跑我就繼續幹我就繼續去關說司法沒人可以拿我怎麼樣我就繼續棄保潛逃也不會有任何法律效果"},{"start":3518.26,"end":3541.789,"text":"今天剛好在處理棄保潛逃的問題有一件事情要請教一下次長檢察官向法院申請羈押的時候有的時候符合羈押的必要性符合羈押的要件但法院認為沒有必要性那所以會用具保的方式來替代"},{"start":3544.336,"end":3568.687,"text":"問題是我們在羈押的事由裡面除了有逃亡之運以外還有什麼重罪串證串證嘛對滅證嘛對好那如果今天他沒有跑喔我們用一千兩百萬給他交保他沒有跑他沒有跑但是他跑去串證他跑去滅證"},{"start":3570.379,"end":3583.162,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第2會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第3會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第4會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第5會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第6會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第7會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第8會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第9會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":3601.172,"end":3623.085,"text":"就是以防他逃逆以及將來執行不到案就會沒入保證金所以只有保他到不到庭嘛對那如果他違反法院的命令那個具保的金會沒收嗎不會再執行再申請執行羈押所以嘛我們把法律效果說清楚啦對就是說今天不管多少錢"},{"start":3624.4,"end":3652.725,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一"},{"start":3654.065,"end":3671.596,"text":"法務部在不贊成?這個不是我們這是刑訴不是我們主管的我知道啦但台灣現在刑事司法荒謬就在這裡刑法跟刑訴實體法跟訴訟法像是雙胞胎一樣一體兩面嘛"},{"start":3673.034,"end":3692.284,"text":"結果你們一個法務部管一個司法院管這兩者之間必須要有一個很好的統合的機制啦我今天不會請你代表司法院發言從法務部的立場我剛剛那樣子啊立法上面方向的建議啊 贊不贊成"},{"start":3695.578,"end":3717.967,"text":"我們待會去研議好了好好研議啦因為我覺得這些事情怎麼樣確保國家的刑事司法權能夠落實這是一個非常嚴肅而重要的問題謝謝下一個我要追的事情是八八會館的調查報告我上次去高檢署的時候高檢署已經承認了"},{"start":3718.871,"end":3741.752,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":3743.206,"end":3761.582,"text":"那個時候次長跟我承諾黃謀信次長跟我承諾說高檢署會修正報告而且會儘速公佈現在快兩個月了東西在哪裡報告委員本部的確在113年4月17號有含請台高檢再釐清據報確實有88會館人員出入將提給懲戒法院來審訟"},{"start":3771.944,"end":3793.747,"text":"提過去了還提過去了不是啊給懲戒法院是一回事啦是那個是被彈劾的所以給懲戒法院嘛是現在我的問題是你們高檢署的行政調查報告避重就輕嘛我追了半天啊你們答應說高檢署會儘速公佈修正的報告我等到今天沒看到啊"},{"start":3796.112,"end":3813.632,"text":"的確當時是根據相關人員所說所做的認定並沒有調查不實那後來再追查的結果是有八八會館人員出入但是不是有女陪室的那一種沒有關係你們修正的報告什麼時候要公布跳票啦"},{"start":3816.869,"end":3835.103,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":3836.084,"end":3848.312,"text":"我希望能夠幫我們監所的同仁喊出他們的心聲深夜圍牢勤務津貼的知己表排除了監所管理員法務部認同嗎?"},{"start":3850.796,"end":3879.158,"text":"他們的工作很辛苦很危險欸在監所裡面去看管那一些受刑人。報告委員我們絕對贊同齁就是他們的確是有危險性而且很辛苦那這一部分我們一定會帶回去研議不要研議阿是法務部要有立場阿要支持他們阿爭取要把他納入阿可以嗎這麼多監所管理員大家在關心的一件事情是什麼"},{"start":3881.325,"end":3904.107,"text":"你們的公文是你們在研議嗎?那現在大家關心的是法務部有幫這一些在各個監所裡面幫我們在讓這個受刑人能夠好好的服完他應該有的刑期這一些的監所管理員你們法務部有站出來爭取嗎?"},{"start":3907.638,"end":3930.887,"text":"對於改善他們的工作環境我們法務部一直有在努力那有時候是有很會牽扯到部會或者是費用的問題不過我們還是會極力爭取我希望法務部作為這些監所管理員的大家長該幫他們爭取正當合法的權益這個絕對是正當合法的權益"},{"start":3934.158,"end":3941.365,"text":"要認真一點不要讓他們繼續失望這樣好不好是好謝謝謝謝黃委員那下一位我們請宗嘉斌委員發言另外我們那個"},{"start":3955.987,"end":3982.076,"text":"我們同時做一個宣告今天委員提出臨時提案那我們依據往例在上午11點的時候處理那如果屆時有委員在巡打那我們就請該委員巡打完畢之後馬上進行臨時提案處理好不好意思好謝謝主席主席在場的委員先進烈士政府平安市長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請徐次長和司法院的朱法官以及移民署的林組長好組長"},{"start":3991.857,"end":4019.787,"text":"好 次長好 那麼還有幾位 那我就想先就教一個過去曾經在我們司法法制委員會跟檢察署發生一個爭議昨天大家看到了憲法訴訟法的憲法法庭的開庭那麼關於憲法訴訟法何謂機關正義案件規定在我們憲法訴訟法的第65條第一項那麼還有包括4至585號的解釋說是要有具體案件 那你們就你的認知所謂的機關正義案件的申請要件是什麼"},{"start":4020.367,"end":4042.385,"text":"在《憲法書法案》第65條第一項就一般常識人認知﹖你可以回答嗎?這是由﹖就主法官來,來。我了解,就是我們一般的法律常識,我也是從這個常識面來思考的。我了解,但是您就這個條文來講他的申請要件很容易理解吧?"},{"start":4044.036,"end":4063.753,"text":"你不便回答,那我們看進行第二頁,4至729號立法院我們司法及法制委員會曾經要求要調閱319槍擊案當時跟最高檢察署有職權上的爭議,這個部分次長你可以答了吧你對這個案件的了解他是有在爭議,是行政院跟立法院在權限的爭議是不是?"},{"start":4065.728,"end":4084.11,"text":"那時候本委員會本院本委員會要求調閱文件根據當時的立法院執行司法那你們行政院法務部最高檢察署認為呢不適合所以這是不是屬於屬於偵查職權與立法院調閱文件的權限爭議"},{"start":4090.397,"end":4113.925,"text":"對 這個偵查的權限行使的時候那必定會跟行政機關所以是不是比較像是剛剛講的憲法訴訟法第65條的適用對象當時是不是走這個部分來我往下看我們這邊左邊這個部分當行政院跟立法院有權限爭議的時候我們申請司法院憲法法庭來做判決是不是"},{"start":4114.79,"end":4131.098,"text":"那那這裡面呢就產生了729號的解釋文他當時還是用司法院大法官審理案件法大審法來處理那大概呢大審法的那個條次啊大概就跟我們的現在的憲法訴訟法的65條相近這你瞭解吧沒有錯沒有錯嗎很好那現在呢我們看到了現在昨天審法法庭呢他行政院"},{"start":4140.871,"end":4147.236,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":4169.364,"end":4195.686,"text":"應該是法規範法規範對所以若認為行政院法規範本身可能抵觸憲法申請法律違憲那當然是適用我們憲法憲訴法第47條的部分是不是這樣子我們來看一下憲法訴訟法第47條第一項國家最高機關因本身或下級機關行使之權就所適用的法規範認為這個法規範有抵觸憲法者申請憲法法庭宣告違憲的判決是法律有沒有違憲的申請是不是這樣是"},{"start":4197.406,"end":4217.131,"text":"那至於我們剛剛講的四至七二九號呢他講的是憲法輸送法第六十五條之一第六十五條第一項最高機關應行使職權與其他國家最高機關發生憲法上權限之爭議經爭議之機關協商未果得申請憲法法庭為機關爭議之判決這裡指的是合憲的法律要如何適用的問題是不是這樣"},{"start":4220.021,"end":4240.3,"text":"是好謝謝那我們講看那最後呢就憲法訴訟法呢我們昨天是做暫時處分的效力根據這第43條憲訴法的第43條第一項暫時處分的有對法律凍結那等到判決確定後呢再實施那請問在你認知裡面法律凍結期間立法院之間行使法比如說人事同意權是否應依舊法執行"},{"start":4245.644,"end":4260.342,"text":"這個要看憲法法庭怎麼判決如果要說暫停試用那當然我們的人事同意權比如說接下來審查的可能就按照舊法那麼舊法是不是現況新法試用前的現況就是舊法"},{"start":4262.148,"end":4289.615,"text":"對嘛所以適用就法大概是對現況變動最小的原則嘛也可能損害是最小嘛是好謝謝好來我們現在看今天的主題齁來刑事訴訟中被告可能失聯的時間我希望失聯啦不要說逃逸啦也不要說脫逃啦齁請問在起訴前就偵查中以及呢起訴後審判中或者在判決後執行執行的階段請問根據統計目前這個三個階段分別過去你們的統計有多少人失聯你這個偵查中呢有沒有統計過"},{"start":4293.595,"end":4314.081,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":4314.915,"end":4333.904,"text":"指的就是起訴後到判決確定前對不對?法院審理中的有多少?六千出頭件那剛剛講的三萬多人嘛因為我們有案子還沒起訴對我知道起訴前嘛跟判決執行階段嘛好所以我們看得清楚在這三個階段都有可能是本修正法案的含色範圍我們往下看"},{"start":4334.83,"end":4351.879,"text":"所以棄保潛逃的罪責的處罰基本上根據我們看到的修正條文的第161條之一的第一項在交保折付限制出入居或限制出境出海經傳喚到庭而未到就發布通緝目前所處罰的對象就是發布通緝的這些人是不是這樣子你們的意見當中"},{"start":4356.295,"end":4377.521,"text":"我們在草案裡面不會以發佈通緝作為唯一的要件。我們現在看有哪一些考量。您說得很好,我看了你們的意見覺得蠻不錯的。首先第一個,我們最根本的問題是防止嫌犯逃亡國外。通常在發佈通緝或者限制出境的時候,這個時候我們假設被告可能還在國內。"},{"start":4379.912,"end":4380.653,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具"},{"start":4403.487,"end":4421.293,"text":"你們覺得這個護照註銷後有沒有有助於讓這個逃亡的嫌犯或被告在國外的行動上受到拘束?註銷護照是外交部的權責。那你們認為有沒有幫助?因為今天沒有找外交部。現在一般來講說他只要有通知我們限制出境的"},{"start":4421.673,"end":4450.12,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三"},{"start":4451.414,"end":4476.037,"text":"之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及四十一條之一及五十一條之一及六十一條之一及五十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及"},{"start":4477.902,"end":4503.085,"text":"依照刑事使用法一百一十六條之二這個是替代羈押處羈押替代處分是如果認為有必要的話法院可以秘密實務上有沒有說具保之後沒有扣護照的比例多少這個是個案由法院來審卓你們有沒有統計目前我覺得你們要統計一下因為法官覺得不用扣護照結果他已經偷渡出境拿在國外拿著台灣的護照還到把把照有沒有這樣的情況"},{"start":4504.707,"end":4529.088,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":4532.148,"end":4546.893,"text":"之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一及第八百六十一及第八百六十一及"},{"start":4554.141,"end":4580.834,"text":"法務部跟司法院可不可以利用電子繳料加強防治被告脫逃,在他判決確定後到執行之間?對,如果在審理中法官﹖不是審理中,我說判決確定。他沒判決確定他不跑啊,判決確定到法院執行他跑掉啦。不是,他那個﹖他只要在審理中他有裝設電子的監控設備,會平轉給我們的那個﹖那有沒有那種在審理中沒有裝設的﹖因為不曉得會判有罪嘛。但判決有罪之後呢,發現這個很重大。"},{"start":4582.13,"end":4602.453,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":4603.669,"end":4627.701,"text":"現在大家對於人云亦雨會聲會影說一大堆人就是因為我們沒有房子要脫逃趴趴照這些在實務上你們都有手段可以防治的或者要入法或者你們現在行政上就要去處理應該要先做一個統計讓我們知道說這個手段有沒有必要同不同意同意好現在我們最後我們看結論了問題二對不起往前看還有人不知道自己被通緝的我覺得你們這裡已經講清楚了"},{"start":4628.086,"end":4649.52,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":4656.698,"end":4667.961,"text":"之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一"},{"start":4671.096,"end":4674.678,"text":"三（罪無罪結果為未到庭但是被判刑才會這樣嗎?"},{"start":4688.697,"end":4714.756,"text":"因為他不因為他後來最後宣判無罪的結果有可能是他延遲拖延據不到庭產生無法傳喚無法審理的結果那這種情況下他的一個脫逃就還是要處刑最後的結果我們做結論這個棄保潛逃需要再研議希望你們再用科技工具來防逃以上剛剛所提的要求你們做的統計數字請盡速的什麼時候可以交給本席你們統計要讓我們知道未來修法的依據"},{"start":4720.362,"end":4738.877,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百"},{"start":4748.926,"end":4775.399,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第"},{"start":4777.281,"end":4795.155,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件中．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第38次全體"},{"start":4796.039,"end":4819.81,"text":"我看你們今天的回答怎麼又變成說你們法務部要研議,這個落差太大了。我抱歉,因為沒有接受,可能是不是黃政事,因為他是他主管的業務。因為我負責督導是檢查業務。那所以政策沒有分歧?沒有沒有沒有分歧。所以以哪一位講的為準?"},{"start":4821.471,"end":4835.996,"text":"三條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一及第一百六十一及"},{"start":4837.597,"end":4838.338,"text":"兩條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4856.408,"end":4867.341,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":4868.993,"end":4873.859,"text":"兩種同樣都是民眾你把他放在一樣的罪責裡面都是三年這個有沒有什麼你認為有沒有什麼特別的一個目的"},{"start":4890.202,"end":4913.879,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":4917.501,"end":4947.172,"text":"所謂的具體就是我們的確有去查訪過就問過相關的收集了相關的跡證證明他在我們強制準備以後他又跑掉了而不是以單獨說發布通緝要特別小心你說妨礙刑事執行程序就脫逃罪或者說刑事偵查審辦程序裡面棄保潛逃你罪行一樣都是關三年我到現在還是百思不得其解這個我在我看來就是大家認為說這很討厭罪行把它增加就這樣子一個理由而已"},{"start":4950.068,"end":4967.542,"text":"包委員我這一點剛才有一點沒有具體的講出來就是脫逃罪他本身是侵害國家的一個行就是譬如說破壞機具啦或者是說已經在逮捕拘禁的程序上他有就是在公權力的監督之下全部都算嘛"},{"start":4967.722,"end":4982.349,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":4990.735,"end":5018.841,"text":"這個前面都是法界的前輩一堆在這個地方大家都很專業的人你去看我們刑法第161條脫逃罪裡面一年以下嘛 對不對對 我們草案有提高我說本來都一年以下嘛對對對 是一年以下沒錯你知道這個條文什麼時候訂到現在嗎這個條文從1934年這24年90年沒有去改變原因你知道嗎原因喔對啊為什麼大家都不動就期待可能性不高啦"},{"start":5020.25,"end":5035.397,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":5050.16,"end":5077.428,"text":"長栗人犯一百六十四條那個是把人藏起來兩年以下。把人藏起來都只有兩年以下。那自己當被告人把自己藏起來這個是被告有時候他自己都不可能去製證自己有罪啊。他就認為說我先藏起來啊。過一陣子出來再說啊。那個期待可能性更低啊。那你這個兩個條文之間你不覺得你跟那個長栗人犯來一百六十四條你去做比較的話"},{"start":5078.528,"end":5097.519,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":5104.534,"end":5120.61,"text":"一萬塊交保,我也都看到啊。我們看了也知道說只是稍微給你一個威嚇警惕一下。好啦,你像這種兩個人打架的,像這種這麼輕微的,這種幾乎都是告訴難論之罪。就哪怕你起訴了,你到法院去了,這個和解完以後,馬上又判決不受理了。"},{"start":5128.373,"end":5148.022,"text":"之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":5150.558,"end":5151.959,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具 «中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":5162.196,"end":5190.191,"text":"我個人非常佩服委員不敢當先前剛剛次長也有提到其實法務部我也幫他講一下話他沒有怠惰因為這個歷次已經開11次的會議那包括有邀請學者那學者就這個處罰的必要性還有這個輕重刺痕一再提出尤其是161條的脫逃罪在修法之前只有一年以下那已經據國家的實力監控之下而逃亡"},{"start":5191.031,"end":5220.511,"text":"這時候判一年,據保讓你處在一個自由的氛圍之下而不來開庭,這樣要判三年。嚴格來講確實有輕重失衡所以法務部的對策是盡量在很矛盾之中找到一個合理的均衡點參考日本的立法例把161條的脫逃罪提高刑度到三年以下讓這個矛盾點不要那麼突出我跟次長還有跟法官這邊各位列席的官員來做一個說明提醒啦"},{"start":5220.691,"end":5235.039,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一及第一百六十一"},{"start":5236.445,"end":5265.412,"text":"我們有時候常常在民粹在立法我們要解決事情沒有錯可是法律條文的設計會跟立法院不一樣耶立法院是一群野獸耶立法院是親在公共的人多數料化同軌有民粹支持一下就過去了可是這個民粹這個民...不要我們也不一定講民粹民意的方向搞不好一個禮拜轉變耶你講幾個具體的案件大家覺得說哎呦阿太當初我們這樣想到最後承擔責任的都是誰?都是你們啊不會是我們耶"},{"start":5266.636,"end":5268.198,"text":"當年的條文到現在你90年沒有去動它沒有動它合不合理我倒認為也合理喔"},{"start":5284.781,"end":5304.473,"text":"除非你要把整部刑法或刑律訴訟你要把它大修啊你如果沒有大修的話你就會造成這種射程的範圍你會傷及到無辜啊輕罪的啊我剛舉的兩個案子就夠輕了吧哪有什麼我那個犯了本罪那麼輕甚至我那個本罪到最後判決是不受理的那或者說纏送了那麼久到最後有一次就像你講的你當作大家都老百姓都吃飽硬硬都要接你的船票"},{"start":5314.602,"end":5325.708,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":5338.635,"end":5338.915,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具"},{"start":5347.881,"end":5369.709,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及"},{"start":5375.911,"end":5395.708,"text":"尤其是你沒收以後還有刑事責任會不會重複處罰的問題你這個也都要去好好的思考一下我要聽聽剛聽了司法院的看法以後是不是次長這邊來再說明一下法務部的立場的確委員剛才講的都是很重要的不過在當時考慮的討論的過程中也都有討論過那剛才講到末路跟那個刑法的話"},{"start":5401.754,"end":5403.759,"text":"三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十"},{"start":5410.39,"end":5425.375,"text":"三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六"},{"start":5435.259,"end":5449.328,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":5465.46,"end":5466.365,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具"},{"start":5467.83,"end":5487.678,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一"},{"start":5497.022,"end":5513.13,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":5515.484,"end":5534.222,"text":"市長是好不好我是認為提出要修法的人立法理由我們都看到了社會上也都聽見了那那個只是說要提出修法的一個他的理由到底堅不堅強我們再把這些個案你如果沒有去把它做類型化去做一個區分的話"},{"start":5534.722,"end":5550.938,"text":"之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":5555.165,"end":5573.637,"text":"之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":5593.242,"end":5594.443,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5601.525,"end":5617.963,"text":"市長早市長我們今天要討論的這個是有關這個刑法部分條文的修正草案那從各位委員還有黨團的版本來看主要是將妨礙司法公正的這個法制給完備那"},{"start":5618.524,"end":5637.301,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":5638.622,"end":5652.378,"text":"這不但是有失我們司法的威信和公正性也讓民眾喪失對司法的信心所以健全法制的相關措施來逐步落實司法國是會議的這個決議尤其重要"},{"start":5653.399,"end":5669.446,"text":"不僅是要維護我們司法體系的這個公正性回應民眾對於司法的改革高度的期待也能夠讓我們檢警在辦案的過程中能夠更有信心來伸張正義那就我們這個棄保潛逃入罪的部分"},{"start":5670.286,"end":5699.326,"text":"來就教我們法務部有關現況和修法的規劃。由於過去我們有包括像這個朱國榮的這個個案對於行期較高的經濟犯來說他潛逃之後我們依法只能沒收他的保證金沒有辦法有其他有效的這種懲罰那相當於讓這個財力雄厚的人用一筆保證金來抵罪幫自己免除這個牢獄之災倘若這樣的案例不斷的發生也"},{"start":5700.166,"end":5720.136,"text":"不免讓人覺得說有權勢的人就能夠胡作非為了那我想就叫我們次長是不是也反映我們現有的這個防逃機制還是不夠周全對於這個被告脫逃所需付出的成本不高法務部對此有什麼樣的這個檢討措施"},{"start":5722.762,"end":5723.463,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5739.92,"end":5758.029,"text":"提出草案就是要對這個棄保潛逃要入罪那其實我們在之前科技防逃就已經都建立好平台那如果說具保的話其實法官也可以裁定就是給他戴電子的腳鐐或手銬那個手環等等這個所謂的"},{"start":5762.351,"end":5788.063,"text":"計壓的替代的措施這些都是事後我們檢討以後那為了防止他潛逃我們所做的努力以及改善好那對於這個科技手段來強化防逃的機制剛剛次長您也說了這個電子腳療類的這個相同相關的事務那我想在過去一段時間也相關的討論也就是在修法之前能夠藉由電子監控"},{"start":5788.863,"end":5815.638,"text":"或這個科技的輔助來杜絕被告這個潛逃啦齁那如果真的發生逃亡的情形也能夠及時讓相關單位得知馬上來追捕尤其我們法務部和司法院還共同建置這個科技設備的監控中心那目前我想請教就是司法我們在科技設備監控的這個使用上成效如何那是否會再擴大使用"},{"start":5835.424,"end":5845.646,"text":"目前有五十幾案五十幾案有五十幾案在監控中那未來有可能再擴大使用嗎?"},{"start":5848.171,"end":5864.726,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":5866.391,"end":5871.553,"text":"三（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":5888.558,"end":5907.762,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":5912.363,"end":5931.025,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會及法制委員會等第二百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一"},{"start":5933.227,"end":5948.332,"text":"報告委員目前居家讀取器跟個案手機是選用的設備並不是普遍的是它自己選用選用對那是屬於我們法定的是電子腳鐐跟電子手環這個部分是我們因為"},{"start":5950.032,"end":5964.592,"text":"我發現到一個問題想提醒就是因為我們現在科技也日新月異那AI的這個製成的這種仿真人的影片也蠻趨於這個真實那會不會以假亂真那再加上一些科技的這個手法來"},{"start":5966.053,"end":5982.703,"text":"規避監控進而脫逃,這也可能會造成剛剛以上我們所講的這種情形來發生所以還是提醒我們法務部對這個部分另外有關這個棄保潛逃的部分我想法務部這邊也有自己的眼裡的版本那同樣"},{"start":5983.423,"end":6007.182,"text":"要處罰透過逃亡藏匿的行為想要脫逃刑事制裁的這個被告那報告之中也提及委員這個提案與法務部研擬中的草案構成要件設計略有差異那我想請教我們次長我們這個法務部所研擬的這個相關的版本那會與今天所審查的內容上有什麼區別是不是請次長這個簡單說明一下"},{"start":6010.95,"end":6012.151,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":6026.681,"end":6027.702,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具"},{"start":6042.348,"end":6060.505,"text":"才能認為是棄保潛逃罪而不是單就書面上因為找不到人發誤通緝就已經構成這個犯罪那至於再來就是我們是主張在裁判宣告就是本行的宣告前如果自動歸案呢接受逃亡藏匿案件的偵審的話執行我們減輕其刑"},{"start":6063.228,"end":6082.485,"text":"我們對這個部分是認為說在宣告本行宣告前規案的話那我們就可以就他逃亡的部分棄保潛逃這部分可以減輕那委員可能就有認為輕罪不起訴處分那逃亡棄保潛逃這個部分就不要處分那這個就是會討論到一個問題就是"},{"start":6085.687,"end":6102.506,"text":"如果他因為逃亡常例而讓我們增審困難以至於他本案判無罪那反而是他就會有兩個獲利本案也獲利逃亡也獲利這樣子的話民眾等於是又更鼓勵民眾來逃亡所以我們認為說這是脫鉤的我們重點是在於他棄保潛逃這個部分要單獨來看"},{"start":6107.779,"end":6123.193,"text":"那本案的部分的話是不受影響的這樣子的話才會能夠督促他一定要到案來接受審理好 謝謝次長那我想我們剛剛討論一下那針對這個刑法不會是我們唯一的一個手段"},{"start":6123.894,"end":6149.45,"text":"那加重罰則也不一定是最好的方法面對我們這個現在有這麼多棄保潛逃在外的這個案例立法院要修法相當的這個容易不過真正的核心應該還是要有一個能夠這個有效杜絕脫逃的一個設計那這個部分真的要請我們法務部還有我們司法院的部分在精進防逃的機制上更加的用心好以上好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6151.752,"end":6180.249,"text":"謝謝陳委員那下一位我們請審發會委員發言主席我們請次長麻煩次長委員好次長早齁早安"},{"start":6181.306,"end":6199.033,"text":"我想這個經過剛剛前面幾位委員大家大概都針對今天的這個案子有做一些做一些這個有一些是針對今天的這個修正修正的草案做的具體討論那有一些他把這個"},{"start":6200.478,"end":6221.185,"text":"之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一"},{"start":6223.649,"end":6239.976,"text":"有關在2017年世改國事會議所所這個這個通過的這個決議決議內容非常明確的有關這個這個欸一些相關的妨礙司法公正的這些罪名罪行齁以及這個棄保潛逃齁"},{"start":6242.789,"end":6269.096,"text":"委政等相關案件確實在事改國事會議的結論裡面很明確的說明在當時事改國事會議的時候我們法務部所表達的立場也是一致但是今天排這樣子的議程其實有一個我聽剛才的這些包括提案委員包括剛才質詢的委員大家都有一個好像就是"},{"start":6270.407,"end":6271.489,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6277.867,"end":6305.007,"text":"所以我們這個這個司法法制委員會我們就先來來來把這個委員所委員齁所提的這個修正案齁今天來列入議程來來審議齁目的就是因為你們怠惰七年這個這個四海國事會2017到現在2024七年的時間齁這個這個棄保潛牢罪以及相關其他妨礙司法的相關的罪行齁你們都沒有立法"},{"start":6306.587,"end":6312.776,"text":"所以這個都沒有提出修正草案所以今天來排這個來逼我們法務部來做這個這個說明"},{"start":6318.294,"end":6345.084,"text":"所以這個重點我想在這邊還是要釐清因為剛才其實剛才都已經說明過很多次但是我覺得這個說明就因為我們有一些部分我們就聚焦在這個目前這個委員提案跟我們法務部目前的還沒有送到立法院來的這個草案有一些地方是不一樣的所以這個好像剛剛聚焦在這個討論但是我想"},{"start":6347.645,"end":6353.264,"text":"前提上還是要讓法務部來說明這7年來法務部都在睡覺嗎?"},{"start":6354.915,"end":6380.687,"text":"市長包委員因為這裡面包括剛才委員就叫的很多就是會有是不是有失衡 制定有失衡的問題我們召開了11次的一個演唱會議很多學者專家也都有不同的意見要整合這些要花很多很多的時間我想重點是這樣子我們看到你剛才一再說明說我們從這個"},{"start":6383.041,"end":6398.047,"text":"這2017年四海國事會議之後我們大概從2019年開始我們這個我們2019年我們法務部的的最早的這個草案就就提出來了就就送到送到行政院但是在行政院之後我們經過11次的會議的審的這個審查會議對不對對對這11次的審查會議"},{"start":6405.526,"end":6422.752,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一"},{"start":6424.734,"end":6446.506,"text":"問題出在哪裡?他一定有他的一些爭點。剛才大概有做一些說明,是不是能夠請你現在比較聚焦的說幾個讓這個我們審查會議進行11次,他裡面比較重要的幾個正義焦點。報告委員,氣袍潛逃是來自於美國的立法的概念。"},{"start":6448.167,"end":6475.958,"text":"相對的在歐陸法系裡面基於一個很重要的原則叫做不自證己罪的原則不自證己罪對所以他歐陸的法系是比較沒有這樣的立法但是我們司改國制會議已經做成這樣的決議而且我們法務部也支持我們自己的草案裡面也有這樣的立法所以這個部分就不用再說了這部分應該是一次會議就解決了包委員我的意思是說因為我們的刑事實體法還是主要是歐陸傳習過來"},{"start":6477.939,"end":6500.092,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一"},{"start":6506.716,"end":6525.456,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":6526.32,"end":6548.213,"text":"所以剛剛所講的你說這個歐陸法系不制正脊椎原則等等這些可能在我們提出法務部提出草案之前的前階段的討論我相信進入這11次的審查會議裡面他的焦點不會是這個他今天會拖到11次會議一再修改一再各界有意見"},{"start":6549.332,"end":6564.422,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":6567.304,"end":6588.047,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":6589.97,"end":6603.03,"text":"這個罪行相當的原則。」這個部分在立法過程中有很多我們所立出來的草案學者有不同的意見這是第一個另外剛剛有提到有一些部分是有關明確性的原則"},{"start":6604.178,"end":6627.779,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百"},{"start":6630.751,"end":6637.83,"text":"這個另外就是也有提到說要符合比例原則啦齁就在比例原則上面也有一些學者有不同的見解啦齁"},{"start":6638.826,"end":6665.631,"text":"所以就是說這11次的會議並不是我們在拖延而是有關剛剛所講這些包括我們今天等一下我們我們我們看今天的包括黨團的提案包括委員的提案本身裡面如果這個是是法務部的草案的話我想在這11次會議不要說11次會議12次13次14次按照這種條文也是不會過啦因為裡面也確實有一些有一些部分是不符合這些原則的嘛對不對是好所以"},{"start":6669.775,"end":6685.721,"text":"接下來就是說這11次會議之後現在你必須要說明就是說我想今天委員會也會關心了包括我們今天最後我們委員會我們委員會會做成什麼樣的處理方式針對今天委員的提案會做什麼樣處理方式也跟這個這目前我們這個進度到哪裡"},{"start":6686.874,"end":6699.786,"text":"法務委員我們現在有一些會議有一些文字還在修改馬上就會送給我們陳和完了以後就會要會前司法院"},{"start":6702.176,"end":6718.714,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":6719.935,"end":6734.781,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":6737.438,"end":6765.121,"text":"多久?因為又牽扯到司法院院會的問題我知道司法院院會到處在司法院會今天因為我們是法官來不是如果說今天秘書長來我們就來問司法院的進度今天是我們行事廳所以我們就不太能夠很精確的講我現在不講會前的部分什麼時候行政院的部分會送到這個司法院會前我們只能禁訴因為真的只剩下文字修改而已真的所以這部分我不想齁"},{"start":6766.707,"end":6788.772,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":6793.493,"end":6813.524,"text":"重點是我們你剛講說盡快很快而且這個是最後的修改了所以有沒有辦法這半年之內半年之內送到立法院來我們我們進我們進朝這個目標前進朝這個目標啦吼我這樣問好了那你們最後你們你們最後的文資修改什麼時候會送到行政院這個你總總總這你訪問部總說得出來吧"},{"start":6819.605,"end":6846.298,"text":"那行政院給我們的時間是這禮拜五這禮拜五對所以你們這禮拜五就會送到行政院對對對對那這樣子的進度齁我想這個這個因為這整個立法體力它不只是不只是這個棄保潛逃啦今天也就很多委員提案是棄保潛逃事實上它是整個妨礙妨礙司法公正的相關的這些法令這些法令的整個整個體甚至那個這個章潔明章潔都必須要新增了齁新增"},{"start":6846.778,"end":6873.169,"text":"所以我個人是也在這邊建議主席希望說我們能夠不要讓法務部這過去7年這11次的努力變成白費我們還是等待法務部的草案能夠從行政院送到司法院會前之後送到立法院來我們再併案來審查這部分是本席的建議以上"},{"start":6874.226,"end":6897.531,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第四百六十一條之一及第七百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八"},{"start":6898.735,"end":6905.571,"text":"我想這個七寶潛逃罪及所有的其他的包含妨害司法公正罪這幾個罪"},{"start":6908.581,"end":6930.789,"text":"二）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":6939.235,"end":6963.238,"text":"所以你同不同意這是一個就是要訂這些罪責是不是刑事政策的問題我想這個是刑事政策同時也是符合國人的期待我想這是大家的期待所以因為我剛才聽到你講說就是說我們現在是雖然我們當時是因為美國有相關棄保潛逃罪的相關的規定歐陸法系的國家就沒有嘛"},{"start":6964.372,"end":6983.017,"text":"所以我現在才會問你說那到底我國要不要就是你要仿效美國要定立棄保潛逃罪或者你要採歐陸歐美那個歐陸國家的立法沒有所以這這就是你的抉擇嗎是所以這就是我國要不要採這樣的一個刑事政策的問題嗎"},{"start":6985.069,"end":7009.884,"text":"所以當然現在從你的整份報告裡面你講得很清楚了就是說依照為了確保我們的司法的公信力還有讓這個司法權及刑法權能夠正確的行使必發現事實的身像維護司法的公信力那你是認為說法務部的立場認為說這是要定的要定相關的妨害這個司法的相關的一個罪責"},{"start":7011.089,"end":7027.591,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一"},{"start":7029.272,"end":7047.018,"text":"說這個要處罰禁命拒保、責負、限制駐居及特定處分或命令之人對於積極逃亡藏匿之行為因為我們有些這個委員他的立法並沒有就逃亡藏匿的行為做一個就做一個文字的一個敘述那你們這邊有強調嗎"},{"start":7048.658,"end":7052.501,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文裏面有做一個規定嘛因為就妨礙作證罪你們在172條之二或者172條之三"},{"start":7067.114,"end":7091.51,"text":"也處罰對協助詢問程序證人的人或對專家鑑定人或專家證人通歷等是以恐嚇騷擾等及行賄的犯罪行為也予以處罰所以這個也有對騷擾恐嚇證人鑑定人的行為予以處罰另外172條之四非法使用卷證罪"},{"start":7092.631,"end":7115.585,"text":"也加以處罰。另外對於不法關說罪在一百七十二條之五又有很明確的一個規定所以你已經涵蓋了整個我們這個這個妨礙司法罪的相關的一個規定所以你已經有這麼好的草案所以我們的問題又回到說經過了11次的審查會議今年也開了兩次去年開了三次"},{"start":7116.685,"end":7143.269,"text":"為什麽這部草案在行政院那邊會一直卡住出不來?包括委員這個就是成果這是很多專家學者慢慢會慢慢修所以委員剛才看到說這個很好啊這個就是這11次的成果這不是一進去就長這個樣子所以你這次的成果已經也就是說你現在已經修正的差不多了最後的版本已經差不多了"},{"start":7143.989,"end":7160.105,"text":"也就是說該您回答這個審判會委員說這個星期五這個星期五行政院你們就已經把文字修正送到行政院了嗎行政院就會核定會寫那個司法院對然後是什麼情況請再說明清楚"},{"start":7162.338,"end":7187.434,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百"},{"start":7190.436,"end":7210.101,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":7214.547,"end":7227.357,"text":"市長,這次立法委員訂了這麼多版本,剛剛審委員說要逼你們法務部提版本,民進黨政府做得不好。其實我想大家絕對沒有這樣的想法。"},{"start":7228.078,"end":7248.092,"text":"大家只希望說讓這些司法國事會議所提出來的這樣的一個建議能夠落實是幫現在執政黨解套幫法務部解套希望案子不要一直在行政院來來去去審查了那麼多次都一直沒有辦法定案就感覺就決心不夠"},{"start":7249.461,"end":7266.07,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":7267.927,"end":7282.517,"text":"之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一"},{"start":7283.277,"end":7299.132,"text":"再可以刑責恐構成雙重處罰,不符而比例原則。」也有人認為說若逃逸的被告本身犯的是輕罪卻被加判棄跑潛逃罪有可能導致後罪大於全罪,不符比例原則。"},{"start":7300.732,"end":7314.443,"text":"市長你贊成這樣的看法嗎這個我們之前他們在研討的時候有討論過不過我們還是為了維護司法的一個公正審判這個兩個是分開的不是市長我們現在純粹這個這個看法見解啊"},{"start":7318.166,"end":7341.496,"text":"其實我提出我的見解給你看 你看這個是不是有道理就是說你現在我們的很多的刑罰我們除了就是說判有期徒刑以外 我們會並科罰金所以你這個拒保潛逃罪 沒收他的金額 這對你來說就是一個罰金刑然後再給他一個刑度 這怎麼會有什麼不符比例原則的規定呢"},{"start":7342.734,"end":7356.06,"text":"這就跟我們現在的刑法規定一樣啊給你罰金病科罰金就你拒保錢然後你那個金額我就給你沒收拒保券就給你沒收而且給你刑責所以這很OK的我不曉得是哪門子的學者的見解蠻奇怪的"},{"start":7357.952,"end":7374.911,"text":"另外就說什麼若逃獄的被告本身涉犯的是侵罪那被加判棄保潛逃罪有可能導致後罪大於前罪其實部長我不曉得你們有沒有統計過今天這些被告被判侵罪的犯侵罪的人他有可能潛逃嗎"},{"start":7377.193,"end":7394.923,"text":"之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第四百六十一條之一及第七百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第"},{"start":7396.244,"end":7417.255,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":7424.378,"end":7447.029,"text":"之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":7456.922,"end":7479.105,"text":"謝謝主席有請徐次長跟我們司法院的代表朱法官朱法官委員好我想大家都應當有聚焦昨天憲法法庭的法規範的審理其實本期在這裡這個會期我從教育文化的領域那一角"},{"start":7480.049,"end":7494.075,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會"},{"start":7495.68,"end":7519.907,"text":"一個以立法院最大、絕對的國會優位的原則下立出來、修出來的惡法除了讓立法院能夠凌駕其他的憲政機關嚴重地破壞台灣的憲政體制以及權力分立它就是毀憲亂政,莫此為勝但是往正面來看正因為國會這樣的惡搞"},{"start":7523.254,"end":7550.071,"text":"三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六"},{"start":7551.152,"end":7575.603,"text":"不只是立法院的四周也包括全台灣的各個地點各個角落很多的年輕世代青鳥們大家一起來上一堂珍貴的民主課一堂珍貴的公民課我認為這也是珍貴的意義另一個部分就是昨天的憲法法庭"},{"start":7576.443,"end":7602.841,"text":"我想這是台灣有史以來最多人在關注觀看憲法法庭直播的史上第一次同時這也是全台灣一起來上一堂憲法課法律課非常珍貴的時間所以我們的召委昨天也一起出席了我也是申請方的代表"},{"start":7604.212,"end":7607.519,"text":"大法官不是特別對國民黨民眾黨的立委嚴格"},{"start":7608.649,"end":7635.608,"text":"大法官憲法法庭對於憲法受到挑戰當然要嚴格的檢視所以我認為有人要不斷的毀憲亂政摧毀台灣的民主的另外一個面向我認為這是留下一個珍貴的民主憲政探討的資產留給台灣社會我想我們今天在這裡我在國會與眾欣賞"},{"start":7637.915,"end":7647.566,"text":"但是非常遺憾憲法法庭還沒有審理之前甚至還沒有受理之前我們看看國民黨的委員們"},{"start":7649.919,"end":7671.64,"text":"從罵大法官是民進黨的看門狗再批判大法官沒有民意基礎再到要求大法官要自重愛洗羽毛甚至在野黨說如果大法官裁定暫時處分就會對大法官的預算跟人事同意權做出因應這是還沒受理前的國民黨喔"},{"start":7673.294,"end":7689.271,"text":"昨天憲法法庭開了憲法法庭的當庭民眾黨的代表也是立法院的機關代表黃國昌委員他居然以大法官不該成為特定政黨的守護神為題太荒謬了"},{"start":7690.072,"end":7707.492,"text":"甚至到今天憲法法庭開完的今天國民黨今天上午剛剛開完記者會繼續的來鬥臭憲法法庭繼續的抹綠這些大法官國民黨的記者會的主題是憲法法庭到底在捍衛誰的民主法治"},{"start":7708.666,"end":7737.378,"text":"我今天在這裡我要一個一個來回應憲法法庭基於憲法的授權何錯之有昨天立法院的機關代表們國眾黨的委員說程序不完備所謂的暫時處分因為它的性質其實開庭並非必要甚至不是常態而且是第一次吧我說的沒有錯吧"},{"start":7738.547,"end":7758.79,"text":"所以說憲法法庭是特別慎重的過去不需要就暫時處分這種特別開庭因為慎重因為尊重立法院所以特別召開準備庭所有的程序該上網的上網該可以調閱的卷證都完全的提供程序哪裡不完備"},{"start":7759.671,"end":7782.231,"text":"如果國民黨民眾黨的委員在批判大法官程序不完備那請好好思考自己在審議強行碾壓國會擴權法案的時候程序有完備嗎?程序不正義在國會完全被踐踏的第二點有委員說害他這幾天都只睡三個小時好辛苦喔準備時間不足"},{"start":7784.107,"end":7798.256,"text":"當國民黨可以在今年的三月八號民眾黨是二月二十號就提出立法院職權刑事法乃至於刑法的修正案你們送出一個違憲的版本的時候你們就應當做足準備你們會面對憲法的挑戰時間不足嗎"},{"start":7803.499,"end":7816.674,"text":"甚至你們最後一刻黑箱橋條文我要說國民黨跟民眾黨的委員是事先比要被表決的條文是什麼比民進黨的委員都預先知道因為當時他們列為最高機密"},{"start":7817.83,"end":7832.551,"text":"五季不對等嗎?我要再還原那天在朝野協商韓院長主持的民進黨是禮讓了立法院的機關代表讓國民黨民眾黨代表包括訴訟代理人民進黨是禮讓的"},{"start":7834.707,"end":7852.283,"text":"但是另外這邊有人說12比3為什麼這邊是12因為有四個申請的機關總統府行政院監察院立法院是同用共享昨天在憲法法庭的時間如果以可以在庭論述發表意見的時間上來講"},{"start":7855.856,"end":7877.314,"text":"四個機關分享三十分鐘但是立法院的機關代表就使用三十分鐘完全是均等甚至大家可以看看昨天的直播是誰占用了更多的時間大法官也充分的讓立法院的機關代表來發表意見不是嗎所以沒有武器不對等這件事"},{"start":7878.533,"end":7905.218,"text":"昨天大法官真的是只求對決了但是大法官是做求給立法院的機關代表委員們充分的可以針對是不是有違憲或者是他們主張核憲充分的一題又一題給機會再給機會聚焦再聚焦給予立法院的機關代表幾位立法委員完整的時間去做回應"},{"start":7906.454,"end":7921.294,"text":"所以如果現在還是要用這種政治來詆毀威脅大法官真的是對於憲政另外一個層面的大傷害"},{"start":7922.637,"end":7924.438,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具〈中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":7943.223,"end":7966.59,"text":"今天的主題防礙司法公正罪我的主張修法不要為急而急不要為快而快不要只做半套下一頁當然剛剛很多委員都提到司改國是會議在2017年就做出了決議確實要研議相關的防礙司法公正罪的內容下一頁"},{"start":7967.799,"end":7990.949,"text":"法務部的版本2019年9月17號第一次送入行政院到今天是過了1759天卡關的原因你們剛剛說明了是為了力求周延為求慎重對話再對話凝聚共識而不是推卸也不是延宕更不是怠惰"},{"start":7991.889,"end":7997.299,"text":"我可以接受我可以理解因為這樣一個重要的修法都需要比嚴謹更嚴謹"},{"start":8000.089,"end":8020.6,"text":"所以我在這裡具體提出其實整個全方位的來看看妨害司法公正罪除了在野黨的委員都有提到的棄保潛逃罪他們都有提到的司法關說罪乃至於在野黨版本有都提出了恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪之外其實更完備的還有幾個面向譬如說淹滅證據罪"},{"start":8022.481,"end":8050.034,"text":"例如說訴訟外目的使用證據罪例如說藐視法庭罪我知道法務部想提但司法院有不同意見所以這是我建構出來也是我的理解整個要全套系統性的去理解訂定一個妨礙司法公正罪每一個面向都不可偏廢而不是現在只有在野黨委員比較側重的三大目標我想次長同意我的主張嗎"},{"start":8051.745,"end":8077.852,"text":"報委同意好那下一頁我甚至這裡都做出來國眾黨分別都聚焦在棄保潛逃罪恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪及司法關說罪但是對於訴訟外目的使用證據罪跟湮滅證據罪是目前複製缺乳的我認為這就是我們需要等行政院版的理由不要只修半套下一頁"},{"start":8079.144,"end":8095.223,"text":"民眾黨甚至我聚焦在司法觀說罪對不起最後一分鐘司法觀說罪我的主張要擴大打擊範圍因為現在以民眾黨的主張是針對在法定程序外對法官或檢察官不法觀說者"},{"start":8096.084,"end":8117.482,"text":"五四謠的主張跟建議也是參酌你們今天的說明報告你們認為說實務上若發生對承辦法官檢察官的長官關說的情形其實應該一併考量有無處罰之必要所以五四謠的主張納入法官檢察官有直接監督的長官也應當是不當關說處罰的對象"},{"start":8119.804,"end":8132.097,"text":"而且他的行為除了關說之外也應當更擴大範圍在請託跟施壓的面的層面要予以來容納下一頁"},{"start":8133.476,"end":8160.384,"text":"因為我很遺憾的說立法院不應當成為各種利用質詢來對於各案乃至於對於司法來介入或干預的作為所以我更為嚴謹的我希望可以在172條之五裡頭具體的來做出我的建議就是向承辦法官檢察官或其監督長官不罰請託"},{"start":8163.446,"end":8182.285,"text":"關說施壓者都要一併來成為處罰的標的定定相關的法則我這樣的主張我認為是擴大打擊也是現在我們的必要否則外力的介入對於長官們的施壓"},{"start":8183.846,"end":8199.657,"text":"或是關說各種方式的請託也就來自於政治力我們自己立法委員修法也要勇敢對自己開槍對自己來嚴格的審視跟克責我不曉得法務部代表司法院代表同意我這樣的主張嗎就是針對這個關說的部分"},{"start":8202.299,"end":8225.36,"text":"法務委員同意同意來司法院就相關的政策決定部分司法院都予以尊重好那我認為我們往這個方向我相信在野黨委員也會支持我們一起來自我克責跟自律我們如果要對於非法關說罪定我們就定的明確擴大打擊面我會爭取大家的支持然後我同意給予你們合理的時間提出布板"},{"start":8226.101,"end":8244.49,"text":"院版然後還要會會嫌司法院求好而不是求快我會繼續努力下去也會監督你們好謝謝主席謝謝市長謝謝好謝謝吳委員好那我們就請那個林思明委員代理主席"},{"start":8253.667,"end":8254.868,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8278.605,"end":8300.13,"text":"兩位好我先請教一下次長我們來看一下其實我們這段時間我想說次長一定非常清楚一個案子在偵辦的時候被告沒有達到羈押的必要的時候這時候我們可能會用交保的方式希望他將來能夠順利的到庭會讓訴訟能夠順遂"},{"start":8305.071,"end":8325.304,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":8332.381,"end":8359.002,"text":"二）委員羅福柱等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百"},{"start":8362.517,"end":8364.499,"text":"其他的我們不是很清楚,都是傳說的。"},{"start":8378.137,"end":8403.195,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":8403.735,"end":8430.709,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":8432.89,"end":8450.58,"text":"就是一兩千萬幾百萬或是五億這種交保金額其實對他來說他都不會當作是一個損失那其實我在上任不久後二月中我就有跟那個羅智強委員我們有一起主張說我們應該要修法解決這個問題應該要新增這個棄保檢討罪"},{"start":8455.023,"end":8465.202,"text":"因為我們目前國家有五萬多個通緝犯有一半是在起訴之後在審判或者是他在面臨執行之前他就跑掉了"},{"start":8466.035,"end":8487.27,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十一條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一"},{"start":8488.07,"end":8506.231,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三"},{"start":8506.852,"end":8528.861,"text":"之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":8530.026,"end":8548.289,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":8549.113,"end":8570.545,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":8571.625,"end":8593.597,"text":"保證金的沒收之外還是有其他的責任去對他刻意其他的責任那我想請問一下目前法務部的防治那個棄保潛逃有有什麼具體做法因為我看你們今天的報告也沒有提到具體的措施啊我就簡單來說就是到底法務部目前有什麼防逃機制哎"},{"start":8604.33,"end":8609.236,"text":"我想科技監控大概是以前我們剛開始當檢察官比較多的這個設備如果將來我們設計這個草案它違背了我們監控的一些做法"},{"start":8623.234,"end":8644.595,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":8644.875,"end":8666.57,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":8667.51,"end":8696.36,"text":"為例,我們是編列三千八百一十一萬八千元的預算但是到一百一十二年的八月底才受理二十二件這個數字你看一下這上面這個數字啊因為我們編了幾千萬然後只有少數幾件那再來就是我們剛剛提到了去年一月到八月就有八百個通緝犯然後我們一整年到八月底受理二十二件"},{"start":8697.921,"end":8712.955,"text":"此數字差距其實蠻大的再來就是科技監控中心在110年度構置的電子手環、腳鐐還有居家讀取器、個案的手機這些總共是550組、220組、110組跟330組也就是說"},{"start":8718.82,"end":8743.791,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":8743.951,"end":8765.809,"text":"二）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":8766.408,"end":8782.572,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":8782.992,"end":8804.448,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":8812.193,"end":8812.513,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具"},{"start":8835.859,"end":8863.169,"text":"那這再麻煩你們瞭解一下然後再來就是有關護照的部分因為今天我看很多人有提到護照的這個問題那我們之前那個212號在高檢署有召開一個判決確定案件外逃人犯註銷護照精英作為的會議那這時候呢其實會議有說到幾個實行案逃這四個標準嘛"},{"start":8864.946,"end":8886.861,"text":"那我也不為難次長啦,時就是時程嘛,要判決確定,刑就是刑度,就是六個月或更重之罪,未違反刑的宣告。案就是要重大案件,比如說我們檢方的重大刑案的注意事項,第二點的重大案件或是經濟重大的經濟案件這一類的,那個頭就是已經未執行或執行完畢。"},{"start":8888.348,"end":8900.234,"text":"或執行未完畢然後通緝外逃的。」好 那我們當時的會議是主要是這四個點啦 那我想請教一下 這個註銷護照有什麼 有有有辦法防逃嗎他"},{"start":8906.087,"end":8933.866,"text":"他沒有在在國外的話沒有我們的護照他就沒有辦法移動那那我請問一下吼這幾年有我們講去這三年內有多少人是因為護照註銷之後然後然後我們順利的把他抓回來來來來呃受審或者是執行我們目前是有有我們發函註銷三百二十六個人的護照但是目前並沒有"},{"start":8935.39,"end":8960.67,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百"},{"start":8963.032,"end":8982.512,"text":"效果,所以這幾年根本沒有人因為這樣子棄貨回來所以我們是不是還在想有沒有其他的方式所以這樣啦我是希望法務部能夠在一個月內就棄保潛逃這個議題提出幾個說明第一個就是說目前這個法案研議的進度怎麼樣"},{"start":8984.073,"end":9003.027,"text":"二）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":9008.931,"end":9037.277,"text":"因為注銷護照而棄貨多少人逃亡的人數有沒有因此而下降我希望說一個月內能夠給我這些資料啦好那不好意思那我再請教一下那個警政署署長我們用朱國榮的案子來說朱國榮的案子他他有好像是四天沒到派出所報到然後才發現他跑掉才通知法院那我想請問一下警政署對這個狀況有沒有什麼改善"},{"start":9038.456,"end":9062.815,"text":"四天欸四天的已經都跑去哪裡了現在現在針對這個應該他沒有來他沒有按照時間來就立刻要反映那我們刑事局事實上也有一些相關通報機制那這件確實是疏失那我們經過這件也是有內部檢討然後通靈一定要按照如果沒有按照遵期來報到一定要立刻反映"},{"start":9064.028,"end":9087.162,"text":"整個部分就是檢討內部檢討的問題那內部檢討是一回事啊那這樣好不好就兩週內你提出一個檢討報案改善措施因為朱國榮他這個案子是四天沒有來才通知法院那其實他當當天沒有來的話你們連是不是應該就一些重要案子或是普遍你就要去聯繫嗎聯繫不上的話你們就要有警覺"},{"start":9090.183,"end":9108.407,"text":"兩週內要給我這個檢討報告還有改善措施那要麻煩你們清查一下目前有多少被告是定期要到派出所報到的那有沒有一些相關的SOP要趕快建立起來最後我跟那個次長說明一下剛剛那個吳少偉講那個我覺得"},{"start":9111.989,"end":9136.539,"text":"這個他講的東西跟我國法制還是有不一樣啦因為他提到幾個說用武器不平等齁這個其實我們常用的法律專有名詞嘛所以用在這個地方他的用法好像不太對啦然後另外就是說他說大法官比較對立法院厚愛啦所以說這個可以不用開庭的所以他還讓你開庭所以表示對你好"},{"start":9137.279,"end":9137.72,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具"},{"start":9154.337,"end":9171.307,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":9177.031,"end":9200.24,"text":"立法院之間的訴訟標的不同所以訴訟標的不同原本是不同案件我們從這個角度去看他到底是不是要請那個幾個律師嗎而不是說用那種用那種很法盲的角度去說放在一起12個律師放在一起共用時間所以這個是對立法院好啊所以你們剛剛也不要這樣子"},{"start":9203.319,"end":9208.657,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":9209.755,"end":9238.414,"text":"一個案子請三個律師上線 這沒有錯但是在面對四個機關他們四個不同的訴訟標的的時候其實它是不同的案子所以我們主張是所謂的武器平等不平等是從這個角度出發去思考這是法律人的思考角度那不懂的法盲去這樣子胡扯亂帶風向我是不喜歡這樣子其實我跟你講我來這我很不喜歡去打臉一些不懂法律又愛在這裡講法律的人但是齁一直都在我面前一直這樣我就"},{"start":9239.275,"end":9260.538,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":9262.056,"end":9284.995,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":9296.211,"end":9297.692,"text":"五分鐘後處理臨時提案"},{"start":10268.39,"end":10275.575,"text":"好那我們現在繼續開會我們出臨時提案共兩案請一併宣讀宣讀後再主案處理請宣讀"},{"start":10276.917,"end":10297.74,"text":"零時提案一略以有限於近年來食安、公害、金融及獨職必案層出不窮且制定必接避者保護專法為反貪腐之重要機制亦為國際間衡量國家聯能之重要指標為落實保障接避者權益並盡速建立專法將接避者權益保護民文化"},{"start":10298.22,"end":10319.191,"text":"以提供揭露不法諮詢者全面性質保護機制,原提案要求法務部於兩個月內與行政院積極溝通並讓行政院板儘速通過並送進立法院審議,若通過衛國亦應於兩個月後將其揭秘者保護法草案與法務部官網上公告。提案人委員吳宗憲等。"},{"start":10320.071,"end":10340.862,"text":"零十提案二．國際人權公約及刑事訴訟法無罪推定原則．法院對未申請羈押及未受羈押者實施科技設備監控應兼顧人權保障及公共利益並應確保手段符合比例原則且應有具體規定統一公告然現行科技監控手段並無具體標準"},{"start":10341.943,"end":10366.038,"text":"全依法官行政,亦發生不符比例原則或逾越必要之監控情節,故請司法院研議修正,巡視被告科技設備監控執行辦法,依所涉犯罪之情節,依比例原則具體規定電子較聊、電子手環、手機監控等不同辦法應適用何種犯罪行為人,尤其對於暴力犯罪及一般犯罪應有所居格。第二人委員羅智強、王洪威等宣讀完畢。"},{"start":10370.2,"end":10375.309,"text":"就臨時提案第一案針對臨時提案請問機關有其他意見或說明"},{"start":10379.759,"end":10399.083,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12"},{"start":10408.445,"end":10435.438,"text":"行政院沒有同意之下我們就進行把它公告這樣子我們法務部的立場會會非常的為難謝謝委員是不是能把它刪除請問各位委員有沒有意見同意齁好那如果各位委員同意的話那我們臨時提案第一案就依照修正後的文字通過"},{"start":10437.109,"end":10446.163,"text":"我們現在處理臨時提案第二案請問臨時提案第二案的提案人有無提案說明"},{"start":10449.737,"end":10469.232,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":10469.452,"end":10475.415,"text":"三（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":10495.626,"end":10512.857,"text":"由其對於暴力犯罪及一般犯罪應有區隔。」那這個部分也跟剛剛所講的這個的標準好像有點漢格那是不是可以把它我們再如果說委員關心這部分的話我們把它改軟一點就把它改成並考量"},{"start":10513.777,"end":10534.611,"text":"暴力犯罪及一般犯罪是否有所區隔?」以這樣的文字來呈現那最後要講一個重點因為這個法規命令其實不是只有司法院的獨立的權責而已還有涉及到跟法務部跟法務部要會嫌的問題那這部分是不是也容許給我們內部跟法務部"},{"start":10535.251,"end":10557.542,"text":"三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六"},{"start":10558.923,"end":10580.874,"text":"研議修正是請司法院研議修正的話似乎我們確認一下也是這樣的一個意旨我們先內部跟要有給我們一點時間跟法務部有一個研議修正的這樣子的一個時間那不一定說馬上就急著要提出這樣的一個修法那如果是這樣子的話這樣子的臨時提案我們是勉強可以接受以上"},{"start":10584.343,"end":10609.856,"text":"請問各位委員就機關他希望能夠做如上的修正那各位委員是否同意有異議那個報告主席基本上就是他那個所做的文字修正我都沒有什麼意見就是可以按照這個司法院修正那另外我想請教就是因為其實我這提案也是請你們研議修正所以你們再跟法務部再來開會討論都沒有問題"},{"start":10612.637,"end":10632.925,"text":"那只是說那這樣的話你們可不可以大致就是說我們可以講一個時間因為你們上你們本來講說可以到下會區可以講你們大概有個時間嗎因為現在我剛才聽該溝通的時候司法院事實上現在也在準備要來做一些修正對不對可以嗎"},{"start":10639.758,"end":10664.026,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":10670.479,"end":10675.022,"text":"三個月後還是三個月內?"},{"start":10694.52,"end":10698.021,"text":"三個月內三個月後太久了三個月內好謝謝"},{"start":10718.986,"end":10741.96,"text":"請問各位委員就剛剛那個王洪威委員所提的堅以及機關所提的意見那就我們對本臨時提案二做修正請問各位委員有無其異議好那沒有異議的話臨時提案第二案依照一討論後修正文字通過"},{"start":10744.588,"end":10748.851,"text":"那下一位我們請王洪威委員進行詢問好謝謝主席我請我們的法務部次長麻煩次長委員好"},{"start":10769.364,"end":10783.523,"text":"市長好市長其實今天我們立法院正在進行朝野協商那其中協商主要的內容就是有關於打詐司法那大家都有關於法詐騙打詐大家非常非常關心"},{"start":10784.324,"end":10807.511,"text":"但是呢最近我們所接獲到的一些的資訊其實讓我們非常非常的憂心因為呢現在這些的詐團他們真的非常非常的神通廣大而且呢據我們所了解的甚至呢他們都可以滲入到主流的媒體還不是一般的社群平台"},{"start":10808.371,"end":10809.612,"text":"甚至還出現了由我們政府的平台來幫他們背書。這個簡直是匪夷所思。在上個星期我曾經開記者會提出來"},{"start":10823.607,"end":10830.709,"text":"就是在我們檢調其實也要肯定我們一線的檢調人員他們在整個打詐有一些成果那麼我們這個虛擬貨幣S王牌交易所那麼他們有這個詐騙洗錢的這個狀況然後呢已經有32個人陸陸續續被起訴而且呢他們的這個洗錢的金額非常龐大"},{"start":10852.176,"end":10879.772,"text":"但是呢後來我們發現這個涉案的主嫌呢竟然可以跟我們三立的集團的子公司一起來合資來開公司而且這個主嫌就協助洗錢幫主嫌洗錢的這個所開立的公司竟然也可以長生在三立集團所有的大樓裡面"},{"start":10881.053,"end":10900.6,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":10905.742,"end":10928.858,"text":"這個裏面詐團在三立竟然還脫波了一個節目叫做什麼合夥人然後呢叫做願望合夥人他可以由這個S王牌交易所獨家冠名贊助然後把整個的這樣的詐騙行為洗錢行為來洗白我們再來看下一個來看下一個"},{"start":10931.718,"end":10950.573,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及"},{"start":10961.802,"end":10988.009,"text":"這個就是我今天要講的這個詐騙集團的主嫌像這個最右邊的江建良他已經被起訴了他不但他在這個三立裡面去就製作節目甚至在我們經濟部的YT裡面去宣傳NFT有多麼多麼安全有風險有多麼多麼的低"},{"start":10989.315,"end":11010.017,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":11011.218,"end":11022.104,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":11023.257,"end":11049.842,"text":"而這個S王牌交易所他所推出的什麼區塊鏈加速器竟然還能夠申請到經濟部中小企業的補助所以我們要講了我們今天在草野協商我們要打詐司法政府要打詐可是沒想到在這個case裡面在這個案例裡面我們的政府竟然幫忙背書竟然我們的平台直接讓這些詐團來滲入"},{"start":11052.282,"end":11074.451,"text":"所以在這邊我當然今天經濟部沒有人來可是我會直接發文我要求經濟部要做行政調查可是我要拜託法務部勿妄勿縱這一次的這個辦案他絕對還要繼續追查下去比如說我這裡面包含三立集團裡面有沒有人當內應我剛才講到這些情勢"},{"start":11078.339,"end":11097.346,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第四百六十一條之一及第七百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一及第八百六十"},{"start":11103.948,"end":11122.92,"text":"一種呢是各位官員很壞跟他們有勾結是不是不能排除所以要求你們查下去另外一種呢官員很笨被他們騙了政府都被他們騙了以為他們是非常哇創新投資然後政府提供平台然後也給他補助"},{"start":11124.121,"end":11147.908,"text":"之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":11149.108,"end":11171.842,"text":"所以打詐就一定要勿妄勿縱追究到底好不好?報告委員我們北檢這個案子已經分案持續在追查中本部的立場絕對不會干預有任何的影響的行為而且只要有任何的嫌疑就要讓他們查下去好不好?是沒問題好好謝謝好謝謝王委員那現在我們請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":11188.475,"end":11190.818,"text":"二．主席楊群發言邀請次長"},{"start":11197.963,"end":11219.19,"text":"謝謝次長,我想我們來討論這個棄保遣逃的這個部分因為我們也知道國內有不少的這個重大犯罪的被告棄保遣逃那即使逃亡失敗,他也僅是保證金被沒收他根本不需要再負擔了什麼刑責"},{"start":11221.181,"end":11244.101,"text":"所以換句話說棄保潛逃就是指放棄保證金潛逃尤其我們根據法務部的統計在目前為止有五萬多名的通緝犯當中有一半是起訴後的審判或者是他在執行階段逃脫所以在我們的現行刑法當中"},{"start":11250.367,"end":11251.135,"text":"三條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11261.971,"end":11284,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":11284.84,"end":11301.53,"text":"卻只有沒入這一個保證金的一個行政法所以目前這樣子的一個社會面向請教市長你的看法的確這一個部分的話規範的有所不足那規範不足你們預計要怎麼做呢"},{"start":11302.23,"end":11303.091,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具"},{"start":11317.619,"end":11340.677,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三"},{"start":11341.437,"end":11369.573,"text":"條文修正草案的本來就已經在行政院那個審查那我們在那個七部的文字修改完了以後那就會只要通過行政院院會就會送到司法院你們預估呢既然社會大眾都很期待是你們也認為是不足的大家也都非藍綠白的委員都非常的關心所以在這樣的情形之下你預估你們大概多久會送進來呢"},{"start":11370.313,"end":11377.121,"text":"條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":11391.856,"end":11401.599,"text":"之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條"},{"start":11411.841,"end":11439.578,"text":"我們要成立要一個法當然也不能草率那符合目前社會的一個需求所以因此你既然都已經走到最後文字修正的這個地步那你更下來的這個動作時間流程就更好掌控啊如果行政院支持你你禮拜五把文字修好在行政院裡頭下個禮拜就可以納入到行政院院會啊"},{"start":11440.538,"end":11463.255,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":11464.794,"end":11490.732,"text":"所以你還是去盤點你的時間指標到底要怎麼做啊好不好讓社會大眾有一個安全感嘛對不對因為我覺得一個好的政府就是要讓人民對尤其在司法尊重司法讓司法是成為人民的信賴啊對不對是 包委員我自己就是檢察官我們的辦案對這個法律也非常非常的需求"},{"start":11491.232,"end":11516.745,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":11519.006,"end":11529.873,"text":"檢察官簡直是蠻翻了天在這樣的一個情況之下我們看到107年起因為成長案件一直成長所以107年那個起合爭了檢察機構一千人"},{"start":11536.836,"end":11552.482,"text":"為了執行這個打擊詐欺的業務一百一十二年我們更同意檢察官的助理人員兩百五十人所以請教部長目前請教市長目前的人力怎麼樣呢我們當然需要這個"},{"start":11556.977,"end":11580.144,"text":"三）委員羅智強等第二百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條"},{"start":11585.39,"end":11606.394,"text":"一百一十二年是一百個一百一十三年是一百五十個對那現在呢現在禁用的情況怎麼樣呢一百個都禁用了那一百五十個是現在正在各地檢測正在禁用中所以本席也就是說我們既然看到社會的面向有這個需求那我們在執行的這個過程當中我們要積極"},{"start":11609.955,"end":11626.148,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":11638.699,"end":11648.265,"text":"應該很快會在各地去補足吧?現在正在禁用中因為現在目前看到地檢署都在禁用中都在禁用中一起加油謝謝謝謝委員謝謝王委員接下來我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員"},{"start":11659.686,"end":11685.669,"text":"鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員洪孟楷委員洪孟楷委員洪孟楷委員張綺楷委員張綺楷委員張綺楷委員邱志維委員邱志維委員邱志維委員邱志維委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員好那我們接下來請羅智強委員進行詢問"},{"start":11699.232,"end":11723.428,"text":"有請次長麻煩次長委員好次長好今年2月17號我開記者會參議要修訂棄保檢討罪那這個會期的尾聲樂見法案開始審理那這是避免罪犯逃逸不受司法制裁改革第一理路那也是守護司法正義的第一理路"},{"start":11724.332,"end":11753.445,"text":"那去年詐欺案件發生將近三萬八千件超過八十八億這個詐損那雙雙創下中華民國歷史新高實際上民進黨執政八年這個台灣詐欺案成長1.8倍讓很多的國人家破人亡而詐騙集團的首腦幹部很多目前都藏身國外那利用網路通訊繼續遠端指揮嘛 對不對事實上有這個情形嘛 對不對知道是沒錯"},{"start":11754.165,"end":11768.566,"text":"所以現在逍遙法外的通緝犯有多少百分比涉犯的是詐欺罪你有掌握嗎我們目前只有通緝的罪名"},{"start":11770.865,"end":11771.245,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具"},{"start":11790.971,"end":11812.42,"text":"根據刑事局統計目前有超過八萬名通緝犯登記在案其中有出境紀錄高達八千人有一半是在起訴後的審判或執行階段逃脫那實際上也對我們的司法威信跟社會治安造成很嚴重的威脅但現行法制規範是依法逮捕拘禁脫逃者"},{"start":11813.24,"end":11826.768,"text":"那有刑責但對具保責付限制租居限制出境出海的被告有逃逆行為的時候那只能夠按照刑事訴訟法一百一十八條末路保證金並沒有刑責嘛對不對現狀是這樣所以造成我們現在氣保潛逃者為數者眾"},{"start":11832.791,"end":11856.276,"text":"也傷害我們司法公正的信任度從此警政的單位要耗費大量的人力去追捕棄保潛逃的通緝犯所以我們有參照美國的法制的棄保潛逃罪以及我們這個司法改革國是會在2017年的決議增加了這個第一段後項就是將棄保潛逃入罪來提高棄保潛逃的這個"},{"start":11859.518,"end":11885.078,"text":"法律的嚇阻。那麼我要想問一下實際上今天我們討論的不管是妨礙司法公正棄保檢討的刑法修正案行政院從2019年11月到2024年3月已經召開11次審查會這麼漫長的時間仍在審議沒有通過院會提出院版我想請教部長到底是什麼原因院內反對意見又是什麼"},{"start":11885.916,"end":11908.446,"text":"我不是院內的那個院裡面的長官反對喔不是因為棄保潛逃罪那他就是美國立法的立法的概念喔那我們實體法是承襲歐美法系的有不正不自正擊罪的原則喔那這兩個比較不是很很相同的一個法理要結合在一起"},{"start":11908.846,"end":11932.083,"text":"之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百"},{"start":11932.583,"end":11957.073,"text":"三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六"},{"start":11959.35,"end":11968.695,"text":"這是整個刑法修改草案是在一起的,都是妨礙司法公正的。"},{"start":11970.138,"end":11988.503,"text":"實際上我沒有看到你們願版啊沒關係我跟你講我現在待會要問法案司法公正罪我先把那個棄保潛逃這部分問完像國保集團總裁朱國榮涉及重大經濟犯罪無意交保卻在去年9月棄保潛逃直到今年2月最高檢韓請北檢啟動廢紙註銷護照程序才註銷了朱國榮的護照"},{"start":11994.045,"end":12013.37,"text":"那我想請問一下這難怪其實很多人都講說今天沒有七寶潛逃罪啊七寶潛逃就是相對變相的付費逃亡反正有錢人他無所謂啊對不對你交保金就五億他也無所謂啊對不對因為尤其是像其他的包括炸雞飯那個炸雞金額更高的時候更無所謂"},{"start":12014.25,"end":12033.196,"text":"但是我就要從這個案例來問為什麼針對棄保潛逃的逃犯那通常是由檢查機關發函外交部依照護照條例來廢止逃犯逃犯的護照對不對那為什麼剛我講那個諸國人的案子這個經歷了半年之久花那麼長的時間從潛逃到註銷護照"},{"start":12038.919,"end":12064.158,"text":"通緝要不要護照從潛逃棄保潛逃到註銷護照大概將近半年的時間這個是由法院跟司法機關他是接到通知外交部來決定是不是我這樣講我覺得整個的那個註銷護照程序都要重新再檢討為什麼因為事實上應該要去有些配套就是說賦予法院主動註銷"},{"start":12065.772,"end":12086.781,"text":"逃犯護照的權益,然後同時減少行政機關擁藏罪。」因為實際上我們在偵辦犯罪也是分秒必爭嘛 對不對所以因此盡量的增加效率這是我今天針對棄保潛逃這個部分我要我問的接下來我要問一下妨礙司法公正罪我想請問最近沸沸揚揚鄭文灘涉貪生壓那我直接問一個問題"},{"start":12090.623,"end":12104.524,"text":"三條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六"},{"start":12108.055,"end":12131.36,"text":"這個案子那個桃園地檢署都已經依法在偵辦我想這個是具體的個案我知道啦其實我昨天問那個黃次長他也沒辦法正面回答他只能回答他不知道啦因為你不是邱台山你不會知道啊對不對可是我今天要問的問題其實不是到底他有沒有他只有兩個結果嘛有跟沒有嘛對不對有沒有施壓跟沒有施壓嘛對不對"},{"start":12132.964,"end":12155.217,"text":"之一及第三條之一及第三條之一及第三條之一及第三條之一及第三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三條之一及三"},{"start":12163.114,"end":12165.637,"text":"二）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議"},{"start":12181.178,"end":12192.548,"text":"三）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第38次全體委員會第38次全體委員會第"},{"start":12194.488,"end":12210.355,"text":"就他去關說桃園檢察長彭坤業施壓檢察官可是同樣的一個問題這件事情請問在刑法上構成哪一個犯罪他如果他今天施壓檢察官對檢察長去施壓檢察官犯什麼罪"},{"start":12220.025,"end":12235.095,"text":"以我們現行的刑法規定對於司法人員關說司法人員這個部分目前我們刑法上是沒有規範第三個案例也很有名本人也是半個受害人"},{"start":12236.156,"end":12248.526,"text":"就是那個我們柯建民總召我把那個電話譯文念給你聽你看看這怎麼關說司法王金平院長說喂找你都沒人啦柯建民說我靜音啦下午有開啦王院長說喔這樣啦那個阿黃就陳守煌啦有打電話來啦柯建民說怎麼樣他說他跟我說那個姓林啦林秀濤啦檢察官啦"},{"start":12263.197,"end":12280.529,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":12290.496,"end":12295.521,"text":"這叫柯建民去找王金平做司法官說啦,像法務部長曾永夫司法官說啦,然後再去關說今天成辦的檢察官啦,就是一個赤裸裸的司法官說,請問犯什麼罪?"},{"start":12316.681,"end":12337.814,"text":"委員問到的大概就是我們現在刑法目前規定的對無罪無罪真的我覺得很可悲到最後辦司法官所有這個檢察總長被判刑因為泄密被判刑結果所有這一串漏眾司法官所有人通通都沒事"},{"start":12339.534,"end":12367.134,"text":"因為我們的刑事我們的刑法我們的司法體制關說司法無罪就是最大的笑話我現在想要請問次長平民的老百姓有能力關說司法嗎還是法務部長比較有能力施壓司法誰有能力施壓司法一個開早餐店開計程車送快遞的平民百姓誰有能力關說司法"},{"start":12367.705,"end":12394.646,"text":"我覺得我覺得要關說司法很困難啊很困難我告訴你平民老百姓更困難我跟你講不要你說很困難啊我告訴你什麼叫冰山一角理論你知道吧你關法官關說司法就已經有案例在前啊邱泰山再加上我們今天柯建民案例斑斑啊但是為什麼今天像你講說很困難是你沒看到原因很簡單因為關說司法無罪反正也抓不到啊"},{"start":12395.507,"end":12406.978,"text":"今天就是要讓這些關稅司法攤在陽光下而且負罪加以刑責才能夠重振司法公信力啦是我同意好謝謝次長你的同意感謝謝謝次長所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢那我們詢答結束"},{"start":12419.122,"end":12427.194,"text":"委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關緊速送交個別委員會及本會。"},{"start":12433.598,"end":12445.565,"text":"委員翁曉琳副坤琦所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並且相關機關與書面答覆本次會議由到此進行到此議程討論事項並定期繼續審查現在的會議謝謝大家"},{"start":12464.974,"end":12489.91,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第四百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六"},{"start":12494.309,"end":12501.53,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第四百六十一條之一及第七百六十一條之一及"}]}},{"id":"16092","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16092","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eac95e053c453ffb768370c866c440906728aaa308df9ea3732ce09c64d528d2885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查國民黨黨團擬具「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-11","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-11T08:30:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T13:16:00+08:00","duration":17137,"影片長度":"04:45:37","委員發言時間":"08:30:23 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謝謝主席齁 你看主席這樣很好啊有意義嘛 台下有意義的聲音當有發出來有意義之後主席就才是讓我們可以講話 這才是正常的開會流程今天這樣就是一個很好的示範但是顯然上一次並不是這樣的進行啊上一次的進行遠的不說 我們就先說最近的就好了"},{"start":2419.398,"end":2424.82,"text":"上一次在所謂的主席宣布這個開會然後大家有沒有異議有異議的那個瞬間的時候這是徐宇珍嘛我記得是徐宇珍徐委員說要做一個什麼停止發言人討論的時候有沒有異議有異議啊那個有異議的聲音大成這個樣子我正想應該是美會委員的聲音吧還是我是沒有認真分不太出來但是"},{"start":2444.127,"end":2448.628,"text":"這個聲音那麼大聲怎麼會現在在這個會議議事錄進行上面叫做無意義呢怎麼會是這樣呢這個光是這個字今天的議事錄就不應該確定了更何況更何況我們必須要說上一次的會議很明顯的是會議通知就是發在這一間內政委員會長期慣行的紅樓2024在這裡進行"},{"start":2472.156,"end":2476.8,"text":"民進黨委員這麼認真這麼早就已經來欸!立法委員認真上班不好嗎?大家不是說7點半上班就多認真有一黨的主席還拼命每天都宣傳我超級認真7點半不好意思立法委員永遠都是最早來的我們這麼早來上班在這裡這個會議室進行準備要等著會議的開始進行沒有想到哭等一個早上不但議事人員沒有進來"},{"start":2497.639,"end":2507.404,"text":"所有的簽到發、簽到發言每一個程序都沒有按照平常的程序來進行我們見不到議事人員、看不到程序發言單、看不到簽到的單子最後竟然是在下午一點多的時候出現了"},{"start":2515.868,"end":2522.33,"text":"有一位神秘人士在門口張貼了這個一個用手寫的用手寫的本會第27次全體委員會改制紅樓201這個二還經過了圖改然後就說換了會議室這是什麼狀況這個人是誰還貼了一個手寫的沒有官房這樣子的一張單子就表示我們的會議要改會議室這樣是合理的嗎這是合乎程序的嗎沒有一個內政委員會知道啊"},{"start":2543.536,"end":2545.458,"text":"好!那我們就算按照這個規定走到隔壁的201好了!欸!內政委員會不就是我嗎?不就是在座的各位嗎?我本人沒有辦法進去啊!影片清清楚楚的證明嘛!在那邊轉的那個鎖沒有辦法進去會議室啊!"},{"start":2559.091,"end":2562.435,"text":"部長官員也都沒有辦法進去請問這個會議是要怎麼樣開始呢?請問這個會議怎麼會是有效的呢?但是在短短20秒之內不但主席宣布了開會主秘宣布了什麼到場人數這些都是在我們沒有進入發生的狀況"},{"start":2575.811,"end":2590.878,"text":"所以這一場會議自始至終就不應該是一個有效率的會議所以我強烈的主張這一個會議意思錄應該如實記載上一次無效的狀況這才是有效的會議錄"},{"start":2610.953,"end":2628.869,"text":"謝謝主席我還是很尊敬你齁我在前面還是跟你鞠躬那一天我沒有機會跟你鞠躬啊你被圍起來了我們講懷疑一下當天的狀況7月8號早上5點20分我到我們內政委員會的時候門打不開敲門裡面有人黃婕幫我開門了"},{"start":2631.611,"end":2645.502,"text":"黃捷是五點十分以前就到了問一下後面那個喇叭手有沒有壞掉內政委員會這裡的手有沒有壞掉壞掉的只有茶水間被國民黨委員撞壞的門串怎麼會說要辦黃捷呢這韓院長太誇張太離譜了吧一個內政委員會的委員提早那麼早來到內政委員會開會沒有破壞任何門鎖的情況下說要辦黃捷合理嗎"},{"start":2661.053,"end":2685.126,"text":"韓院長怎麼了又怎麼了好韓院長指示之後我也不知道我一向也尊敬我們內政委員會我們的我們的祖密我們的議事人員你們跑去哪裡了我們從5點多在這邊也沒有冷氣喔冷氣7點半中央空調自己開的"},{"start":2687.677,"end":2695.994,"text":"到七點多一般議事人員今天也很好嘛我們七點半進來議事人員也都來了嘛請問議事人員從七點"},{"start":2699.277,"end":2718.267,"text":"辦到下午一點半這一段時間又跑去哪裡了?又坐誰的車來到紅樓201了?剛剛巧會委員那一張公告又是誰張貼的?有沒有蓋內政委員會的章?當那一張貼上去我要去201開會的時候門被鎖起來了"},{"start":2722.573,"end":2742.189,"text":"當我們進去簽到的時候裡面已經有五個國民黨的委員已經簽到了這是什麼黑箱為什麼要在內政委員會發聲都要一一的確認清楚這個在議事錄裡面都沒有接下來在進到這個內政委員會之後"},{"start":2745.709,"end":2767.754,"text":"連劉士芳部長剛才接受媒體訪問的時候也沒有收到通知說聽說你是看電視才趕快來2011的太離譜了吧我們的內政委員會要這樣開嗎為的是什麼為的是要請所有的要連署罷免的所有的台灣人民"},{"start":2769.059,"end":2788.894,"text":"要把身份證拿出來罷免才算數國民黨就是要做這個所以要製造所有的這一些衝突所以要製造所有的這一些黑箱的會議所以我們在這邊繼續程序發言我們主張7月8號的議事錄是無效的必須要詳實記載謝謝"},{"start":2799.48,"end":2802.061,"text":"好,繼續我們請美會委員發言,謝謝。主席,大家董事,大家好。在這裏本身要說一個覺得說,是怎樣會沒好,因為在過程當中,我們開會,有史以來都是在這個會議裡控理的開會。"},{"start":2828.697,"end":2835.842,"text":"結果那天,沒想到民進黨臨陣打拚,早早就來佔這個主席台。在這個規定當中,不管你是怎樣的規定,你要跟那個所在,說實在,這個小朋友的租賃在哪裡,這有什麼在這個地方的公文,"},{"start":2856.437,"end":2864.742,"text":"說實在,我當時在那裡也在想說,怎麼可能要刷去那裡,要刷去那裡,也要我們大家都知道,結果本席和其他黨委員辦公室的主任說,才有接到我們主席阿基斯特說要把辦公室開了,完全都沒有把這個"},{"start":2883.934,"end":2885.897,"text":"我又不知道在外面,人家說裡面的問題很大,結果我想要去那邊聽說其實"},{"start":2895.41,"end":2907.475,"text":"審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。．審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。．審查"},{"start":2917.259,"end":2918.321,"text":"我認為雖然我是內政委員,但我沒有在裡面開會,這樣有一點可憐吧?"},{"start":2929.332,"end":2940.719,"text":"所以說,我要跟主席說,因為主席剛才說,我們都是很和諧的,但是因為出錯問題關於國家的態勢,我們一定要有精力,所以我看韓國瑜院長"},{"start":2951.605,"end":2974.532,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":2977.881,"end":2984.843,"text":"過多次,從來不聽到院長說出他的良心話對中華民國的立法院的價盤,所以我對他的價盤越來越沒了,不然如果回到我都說院長院長。"},{"start":2995.606,"end":2999.608,"text":"真的,我覺得他的做法這樣是不對的。所以說,我認為,我們內政委員,我覺得那天,真的做了,想過想過,尤其說有意義,尤其我這個大聲的,我說有意義,結果也是這樣過了。這樣說,有一點點天理,有一點點公平,以上。"},{"start":3021.754,"end":3026.436,"text":"主席,我們與會同仁。針對我們7月8號,就這個禮拜一,現在要確定這議事錄,本席是非常的遺憾,因為我也是內政的召委。"},{"start":3048.515,"end":3063.666,"text":"我今天也提案我們內政有內政的流程那我們內政我們兩位召委是一個最和諧的在立法院我們內政委員會是最和諧那我看到禮拜一我真的也真的傻掉了"},{"start":3064.406,"end":3092.082,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":3093.223,"end":3110.644,"text":"也沒有我們內政部的公文也沒有召委的名字那個公文到底是公文還是所寫的那也不能確定說我們的議事廳換了在隔壁那也沒有公信力啊也沒有辦法號召我們所有的我們內政委員會到那邊去開會啊"},{"start":3112.346,"end":3112.446,"text":"主席"},{"start":3125.066,"end":3147.394,"text":"我們確定議事錄這應該是我們是無法來做確認是不是我本席建議是當天的會議無效或是我們想個比較原法的讓整個我們的內政的整個流程以整個和諧不要去破壞掉"},{"start":3148.334,"end":3148.634,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":3168.391,"end":3169.652,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":3196.056,"end":3196.196,"text":"主席"},{"start":3211.38,"end":3217.362,"text":"好,主席、各位同事,我在這邊要嚴正的宣告,禮拜一的會議是無效的,違法會議,會議無效。為什麼會這樣說呢?平常我們內政委員會其實都非常的有紀律,早上七點半的時候我們的議事人員就會出現在會議室。"},{"start":3230.365,"end":3235.289,"text":"讓我們來準備簽到8點所有的委員也都準時來簽到可是禮拜一大家看到早上8點我們所有的委員站在這邊等著排隊要來簽到結果議事人員全部都消失了全部都消失了消失多久6小時我們議事人員水癮6小時請問是去了哪裡被誰帶走難道我們"},{"start":3256.585,"end":3264.413,"text":"立法院不需要給大家一個交代嗎?為什麼我們的議事人員可以消失這麼久不在內政委員會來開會呢?所以這一次的會議的舉行跟發言的登記已經很明顯違反議事規則了。"},{"start":3272.561,"end":3294.869,"text":"所以我主張這一次的會議無效再來我們的委員會組織法第九條也規定除了秘密會議之外各委員委員會應該要公開舉行可是我們當天禮拜一召委宣告會換會議室甚至阻擋我們立法委員進到更換的會議室為什麼因為其實我們開會通知單明明就是寫紅樓202可是當天才手寫到一個"},{"start":3300.851,"end":3323.243,"text":"要換到201而這一張手寫沒有任何的蓋章沒有任何的簽證甚至我們都沒有收到通知的情況下會議就換到201舉行了這難道算是一個有效的會議嗎甚至我們的部長都被擋在外面都還不知道哦原來已經改到已經換會議室了這樣的會議真的是有效的嗎"},{"start":3324.404,"end":3352.885,"text":"甚至當天我進到會議室201的時候國民黨所有的委員都已經完成簽到了這難道不是黑箱嗎?為什麼國民黨的委員可以先簽到再把門打開讓我們在不知情的情況下進到現場才知道說難道是不是已經優先先讓國民黨的委員在會議還沒召開之前就已經知道要換到哪裡而且已經完成簽到呢?這樣的會議是有效的嗎?"},{"start":3354.625,"end":3376.2,"text":"最後我要抗議嚴正的抗議韓國瑜院長議事不中立為什麼特別針對我更何況我到底是違反了哪一個法律違反了哪一個規定門鎖既沒有被破壞我也是合法合規的進到會議室真的破壞門鎖的是國民黨陳永康委員他把茶水間的門栓踹斷了為什麼韓院長選擇辦綠不辦藍呢"},{"start":3384.577,"end":3413.477,"text":"所以我必須要在這邊嚴正的抗議韓國瑜院長根本就是針對我個人甚至把我的影像外洩沒有任何的通知可以在不告知委員的情況下就這樣洩露立法院的監視器的影像嗎沒有影響我個人的個資的問題嗎這就是現在意識不中立的立法院我在這邊嚴正的抗議我再次主張今天的議事錄因數無效禮拜一的會議是無效的"},{"start":3414.366,"end":3414.686,"text":"怎麼變這麼高?"},{"start":3452.191,"end":3470.92,"text":"各位委員其實大家對上一次的會議意思錄大家都有各種不同的看法其實我們必須要說這個程序上是不是完全沒有瑕疵呢我認為還是有一點點瑕疵在剛剛很多委員都說了"},{"start":3473.021,"end":3497.036,"text":"通知不臨時,內政委員不得其門而入,到了之後都已經簽到好了。其實這一點點,我個人覺得內政委員會的委員,不管是各黨各派,我覺得都必須要受到尊重。這一點我覺得我必須要在這邊說明一下。"},{"start":3498.735,"end":3526.321,"text":"那另外對於議事進行的程序裡面除了我剛說的這個臨時更改會議是沒有及時通知之外呢我記得當天吳立華委員他是在現場的然後呢在唱名的過程當中吳立華委員有說他要發言結果他沒有得到發言的機會"},{"start":3527.648,"end":3553.753,"text":"我覺得這大家都是立法委員我覺得這一點他沒有發言的機會所以我認為這個會議的意思錄就是那你如果要這樣子你也要把這個過程稍微寫一下讓他以後對著他的選民什麼的他可以有一個說法有一個機會我覺得這個可能要對吳委員有一些"},{"start":3555.283,"end":3574.35,"text":"公平的機會畢竟我們那天我們的議事議事要進行的程序裡面有很多是關於原住民委員他們這個投票的一些相關的權利這一點我覺得這個吳立華委員的權利我們必須也要保障他"},{"start":3575.273,"end":3600.228,"text":"那其他的很多的委員都有說了我就不再追溯了所以我個人會覺得說這一次的議事錄要確定我覺得我們可以再斟酌一下那是不是要修改內容或是我們今天先不處理議事錄其實不處理議事錄我們會議還是可以照常的進行所以這一點我覺得我們大家可以思考一下謝謝"},{"start":3602.385,"end":3605.688,"text":"主席,各位同仁,大家好。本席在這裡要特別地強調,"},{"start":3625.666,"end":3650.729,"text":"我們內政委員會確實過去一直都很和諧但是不知道為什麼從7月4號開始我們的會議連召委都進不了會議室這一塊我覺得大家也要去想那7月4號召委進不了會議室然後呢我們也沒有辦法來開會所以難道7月8號也要如此嗎"},{"start":3651.98,"end":3665.078,"text":"所以我想7月8號這個會議室會更改到這個2011他一定有其原因的我記得我在念博士班的時候我們老師跟我講"},{"start":3666.118,"end":3683.568,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":3685.129,"end":3702.03,"text":"所以7月8號民進黨委員說很認真開會其實認真是要讓大家開會大家來討論那不是提早到你考試提早到你就考比較高嗎?我想不是"},{"start":3702.952,"end":3717.203,"text":"所以我們內政委員會一直很和諧為什麼我們這個7月8號我們民進黨的委員呢需要那麼早而且會議室的門就不是議事人員開的"},{"start":3718.584,"end":3738.921,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":3739.381,"end":3750.389,"text":"我不知道立法院什麼時候需要由立法委員來開門所以本席在這裡希望這個不要斷章取義我們今天民進黨委員剛剛所發言的斷章取義那我們要讓所有的事情社會大眾要了解也要有公斷"},{"start":3764.138,"end":3787.848,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":3792.258,"end":3813.692,"text":"我們對於那一天雖然在混亂中雖然在混亂中但是呢整個的程序本身還是非常的要在這裡呢我們的召委非常的辛苦那一天雖然我們沒辦法完整的開會但是至少至少我們整個議事我們已經進行了謝謝"},{"start":3816.107,"end":3821.356,"text":"好,非常謝謝徐信義委員的發言繼續我們請劉許廷委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":3828.821,"end":3849.677,"text":"這幾件事情我們還是在這邊做一下釐清第一個有關於早上起床提早進入叫認真上班這件事情真的好意思這樣說嗎?第一個大家想知道你是要用什麼樣的方式你難道不用講清楚說明白嗎?第二早起你是為了霸佔主席台為了阻止一場會議的正常進行這不叫認真上班"},{"start":3850.638,"end":3872.97,"text":"這一場不但沒有讓內政委員會可以順利進行還連帶影響了很多委員會在上個禮拜四跟禮拜一兩場的會議之中其實是嚴重影響立法院的議事效率嚴重影響我們立法院同仁的工作內容請問這是認真上班嗎這是什麼值得拿來說嘴很驕傲的事情嗎不要搞笑好不好"},{"start":3873.848,"end":3884.166,"text":"第二回到這個門鎖的問題啊問題不是有沒有破壞而是有外人疑似進入立法院的院區嗎這件事情從院長的高度他難道不應該被合理的調查嗎"},{"start":3885.856,"end":3911.719,"text":"問題是在於今天有我們的立法院的同事在受媒體採訪的時候公然否認自己做過的事情在所有媒體鏡頭前面公然說謊沒有真相的一件事情難道不用查清楚嗎難道我們立法院的同仁跟社會大眾不值得了解事情的真相不應該說明白嗎我覺得這件事情自有公論啦這個我同意自有公論再來我要講這下午的會議它真的是一場黑箱的會議嗎"},{"start":3913.7,"end":3936.994,"text":"我手上這裡應該大家都有收到內政委員會正式變更會議室的公函該走的程序有走嘛回去找一下嘛回去找一下嘛第一個第二個你如果講說這一場黑箱會議你們沒有辦法參加你們不得其門而入請問為什麼議事錄上面有14位我們所有內政委員會簽名簽到的簽到表為什麼"},{"start":3938.494,"end":3962.807,"text":"為什麼有47位列席的委員,包含不同的委員會?那場會議所有參加人都非常清楚我們在前面進去佈置會場是因為要等待會議直播的訊號切換我們之所以沒有第一時間開門是因為我們清楚一旦開門民進黨就會攻佔主席台按照事後的發展,難道這不是事實嗎?"},{"start":3964.349,"end":3981.919,"text":"我們自始至終都希望會議可以順利進行不管在紅樓202或者是201或者是群賢我們的初衷沒有改變我們希望場地佈置好我們希望負責主席台只是希望會議能夠順利進行我們在這邊都直接講高清召委很明白的跟我們黨團表示"},{"start":3983.3,"end":4006.279,"text":"如果要開會,叫兵叫驚,該答詢要答詢,該處理要處理,該逐條要逐條,如果有任何動議的修正,也要按照正常的會議規則來做行使。他有沒有說到做到?難道沒有嗎?是不是按照開會的程序?如果我們這次一場真的會議要快速通關,大可重演過去30秒或一分鐘的事件,可是有嗎?"},{"start":4007.472,"end":4016.347,"text":"我們主動開門讓大家進來讓大家開會是因為希望大家可以好好的討論可是結果是什麼?結果是這個會議又一次的被癱瘓"},{"start":4017.662,"end":4037.387,"text":"所以這些事情難道不應該說清楚嗎?所以我們希望這個議事錄我同意鴻祿委員講的內容上有若干可以討論大家值得修正的地方但你要講它是一場無效的會議或者是藉機還要把事情扯到韓國院長身上或者是要抹黑召委跟我們議事人員本行是絕對不同意的以上非常謝謝牛煦庭委員的發言謝謝"},{"start":4042.125,"end":4042.205,"text":"主席"},{"start":4060.578,"end":4083.028,"text":"主席還有各位同仁大家好我想針對7月8號的我們的這個議事錄到底有沒有效我想公道這在人心尤其在7月4號的時候我們可以看到當我們的高金昭偉就站在這裡要主持議事的進行為什麼因為主席台整個都被佔領了那高金昭偉跟我們的議事人員站在這邊的時候議事人員的這個議事錄還被搶走"},{"start":4086.69,"end":4098.448,"text":"這歷歷在目所以在7月8號的時候又重新上演了一次我還記得如果5點多就可以進到會議室的話那就可以表示他認真上班的話那我想請教一下為什麼後來門要鎖出來 鎖起來"},{"start":4102.313,"end":4109.477,"text":"為什麽一堆另外的民進黨委員都在外面排隊在演什麽明明裡面就一堆人啊為什麽還要把門鎖起來然後在外面演呢所以表示他們就是認為這樣是不對的應該是我們7點才能夠正式開門大家應該要7點這是我們內政委員會的這個慣例7點才能夠進來"},{"start":4124.224,"end":4130.447,"text":"那當裡面一堆人在五點多已經潛入的時候到底是用什麼樣的方式?這樣是合法的嗎?這樣是對的嗎?那我覺得這個部分為什麼到最後迫使我們要改其他的委員會就是因為民進黨占據主席台我們沒有辦法讓議事能夠順利的進行"},{"start":4144.275,"end":4165.961,"text":"也沒有辦法讓我們的高金昭偉能夠坐在主席台上跟我們的議事人員能夠確保議事的進行所以這是不得不下面的一個做法那當然我想高金昭偉也非常重視整個的流程跟程序所以當我們換到隔壁的會議室的時候第一個是有公告的我們要換到隔壁會議室第二個呢最重要的是我們當天要討論的議案是什麼"},{"start":4169.562,"end":4184.466,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":4189.568,"end":4192.911,"text":"主要是要來討論這個那也是民進黨委員的提案我們也都非常尊重我們也都很希望大家共同來好好討論希望聯署的條件能夠更加嚴謹而不是像現在這個方式這到底何錯之有"},{"start":4216.391,"end":4223.896,"text":"所以我想增加身份證的發證日期的這個部分我們也認為很有道理所以當天我們也想好好討論它包括我們很多原住民的委員當天也都來也很希望針對原住民的捲壩法的一些相關的規範能夠做一些修法的條件請問一下這樣一個方向我們其實為了換會議室就是為了讓議事順利的進行那當天我為什麼發言是因為我是第一個登記發言"},{"start":4243.789,"end":4260.635,"text":"那我也要做詢答那在那過程中可是因為事實上民進黨的委員完全無所不用其極在主導議事的進行我根本沒有辦法能夠好好的詢答所以我當然就是要請主席是不是能夠先暫停會議這個就是當天真實的狀況那我想大家應該都看得到因為其實都有民進黨這個佔領主席台的一個狀況我們希望今天的議事錄本來就是有效的謝謝"},{"start":4273.274,"end":4277.892,"text":"好,非常謝謝許宇珍委員的發言,繼續我們再次請黃婕委員發言,謝謝。"},{"start":4288.154,"end":4317.036,"text":"好那因為簡短我要回憶一下啦因為還是聽到有些委員斷章取義完全是曲解當天的會議的進行的內容甚至是造謠的我在這邊簡短的回憶一下第一個就是說當天什麼時候主席宣布開會的呢他們在20宣布開會的時候我們在場至少我們所有民進黨的委員都沒有收到通知因為他們就是偷偷摸摸使用一個email"},{"start":4317.316,"end":4321.86,"text":"然後傳到我們的公務信箱五分鐘之後就在二零一宣布開會了也就是說我們仍在現場的委員根本就還沒有打開這個e-mail請問五分鐘後就宣告會議是開始這難道不是心裡有鬼嗎這就是他們偷偷摸摸正在進行的事情"},{"start":4338.362,"end":4357.134,"text":"然後剛剛有委員說到如果我們這樣子不是是會上演這個半分鐘的事情我不知道國民黨怎麼好意思講十年前的半分鐘我相信張志文委員在這裡最清楚他爸爸當年就是引發十年前半分鐘事件上演的元兇"},{"start":4359.468,"end":4362.95,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4375.897,"end":4392.14,"text":"當天會議無法進行,完全都是因為國民黨挾持了會議。為什麼呢?因為早上8點我們所有的委員在這邊乖乖的準時排隊。結果,我們在後面的這個議事桌,大家可以看到,以往就是8點甚至7點的時候,議事員就坐在那邊,然後把所有的簽到單、登記發言,把單子擺出來。結果我們在排隊的時候,怎麼等?等不到。等了6個小時,還是等不到。"},{"start":4402.162,"end":4418.284,"text":"就因為議事人被帶走。到底被誰帶走了?給大家看一個畫面喔!欸?沒有拿著啊!李嘉!李嘉!好補充一下!這個!媒體都拍到了喔!當天議事人身影6小時在哪裡?是不是在我們高經交委的辦公室?"},{"start":4418.965,"end":4431.316,"text":"然後6個小時之後才被一起帶出來坐上同一台車進到201的會議室。這難道不是瑕疵一省人難道不是偷偷摸摸為了要開閉門會議嗎?甚至我們所有的委員當時終於得知說啊!原來是在201開會5分鐘後我們走到那裡甚至連部會都還沒進去結果他們把門關上不讓我們進去"},{"start":4442.626,"end":4457.953,"text":"結果開門的時候他們已經部署好了,然後站在主席台上的是誰?是國民黨!你們說為了要怕癱瘓議事進行隨意,你們說要好好開會,結果當天霸佔主席台的竟然是國民黨!把主席台完全佔住了!這不就是國民黨你們在癱瘓議事嗎?真的是太厲害了!"},{"start":4466.095,"end":4491.06,"text":"那最後我講一下啦這個吳秉瑞撤案的事情他早就已經撤案了我不知道為什麼國民黨到現在還要寄生人家要吃人家豆腐過去造成最大的不合格率的連署的就是國民黨就是造假大戶多少死人連署多少假人連署都是在國民黨手上結果他們現在好意思透過這一個法律要來寄生別人的提案"},{"start":4491.64,"end":4508.551,"text":"為了要保護謝國良,為了要保護這些委員自己怕被罷免,就來提高這個罷免門檻,真的是非常的厚顏無恥。像這樣,沒收民主,沒收大家人民的罷免權。等提案,我們絕對不同意。謝謝。好啦,謝謝大家。"},{"start":4521.618,"end":4521.638,"text":"租賃"},{"start":4537.296,"end":4566.181,"text":"各政黨的委員尤其民進黨的委員跟國民黨委員針對7月4號禮拜四7月8號禮拜一的議程的部分還有所做的行為所做的發言都已經聽完了現在身為一個排案的召委有事實的這個說明首先我第一次要講我首先我要講的是7月4號的星期四其實星期四大家都可以看到我的身體是非常還沒有復原的那麼我一進來的時候呢"},{"start":4567.691,"end":4568.071,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":4589.242,"end":4589.282,"text":"租賃租賃"},{"start":4604.76,"end":4628.762,"text":"一早的時間除了我們內政委員會被癱瘓之外呢還有三個委員會其實也被癱瘓我覺得感到非常的遺憾身為一個22年在立法院裡面的立法委員我不樂意這件事情發生所以一直到下午的時候我們希望能夠改變這個這個開會的地方那開會的地方要改變的時候呢"},{"start":4629.841,"end":4630.622,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":4651.5,"end":4672.693,"text":"沒有任何一個包括提案委員吳秉瑞委員來告訴我他不要排入議程。身為一個召委,既然已經合乎程序的規則排入到委員會裡面,民進黨委員在禮拜四的時候霸佔吐息台是因為徐宇珍委員門檻的問題,那麼"},{"start":4675.094,"end":4696.812,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":4697.833,"end":4719.273,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":4724.157,"end":4748.891,"text":"這個不正式的方法開門呢還有我們也看到了鍾嘉斌委員他也企圖要破壞我們的窗戶那麼這些事情當抓委都知道的時候我當然非常的擔心我們的議事能不能順利的進行而且我們也透過了畫面上看到"},{"start":4749.531,"end":4770.017,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":4773.658,"end":4788.381,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":4788.962,"end":4788.982,"text":"公報﹚"},{"start":4814.935,"end":4815.376,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":4834.275,"end":4854.269,"text":"已經完成了公開透明的程序規則那因此我也要求國民黨你們必須要打開門不能夠我們自己在裏面開會當然按照我們的議事程序只要內政委員會的五個人其實就可以開會"},{"start":4855.39,"end":4879.237,"text":"但是召委並沒有那麼做,召委希望其他黨團的委員也進來。因此當我們都合乎了所有的開會的議程之後,我也請國民黨團一定要把門打開來。那麼在打開來的同時,我們也讓大家簽名,因此就會看到我們的媒體朋友。"},{"start":4880.213,"end":4881.094,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":4898.664,"end":4909.532,"text":"徐宇貞委員的提議之下,我們就不再進行討論。我接受了徐宇貞委員的要求,也希望我們就不要再繼續討論,我們就休息。"},{"start":4915.691,"end":4915.851,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4932.515,"end":4932.655,"text":"租賃主席"},{"start":4951.098,"end":4955.925,"text":"也沒有任何造謠,完全是根據事實在說明。"},{"start":5138.327,"end":5139.348,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":5172.005,"end":5172.085,"text":"主席"},{"start":5217.145,"end":5217.365,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":5234.548,"end":5235.388,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":5252.295,"end":5252.555,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":5281.718,"end":5282.238,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":5298.212,"end":5309.338,"text":"所以七位跟五位贊成上次的會議議事錄多數所以我們的議事錄就確定好 我們繼續進行討論事項我們現在請宣讀 謝謝"},{"start":5321.988,"end":5347.125,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":5349.636,"end":5351.097,"text":"李博弈委員王美惠委員張宏路委員"},{"start":5376.738,"end":5380.879,"text":"黃婕、劉許廷、徐欣盈、丁學中、張志倫、徐宇貞、黃建斌、麥玉珍、"},{"start":5400.541,"end":5407.83,"text":"現在我介紹一下列席的官員歡迎內政部部長劉世芳部長政務次長董建宏"},{"start":5409.721,"end":5438.001,"text":"地政司司長王成基、專門委員何俊達、科長廖慶安、國土管理署專門委員張玉欣、國家住宅及都市更新中心資產管理部副主任廖雪菲、財政部負稅署專門委員王俊隆、個人資料保護委員會籌備處法治事務組科長陳景儀、法務部檢察官謝佑君。"},{"start":5439.422,"end":5440.362,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":5457.224,"end":5481.053,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員大家辛苦了我們總是要回到民生法案的討論本席作為年輕世代的民意代表非常了解年輕人面對防止孩子二選一的困境高房價高租金高通膨是所有現在年輕世代生活的重大負擔所以說居住正義的推動我想是不分藍綠白應該要共同主張而且共同重視的這樣子的一個價值"},{"start":5482.293,"end":5506.233,"text":"那麼我們中央政府從2017年開始推動社會住宅包租代管計畫,如今邁入第四期。本來是希望說可以帶動去化這個市場上的空屋,空的房子,讓它這個地方可以充分的來發揮效果。但無奈這一段時間推行下來,這個租屋市場不透明,租屋黑市的情況還是比較嚴重。導致,也導致了這個包租代管的政策推動上要受到阻礙。"},{"start":5507.335,"end":5533.87,"text":"那從包租貸款歷年媒合的數據來看市場往貸款傾斜貸款的數量比包租的數量多3.25倍但是以現行的租賃條例法規只要求包租業的轉租案件要做實價登錄而數量比較多的貸款業者卻不用登錄這其實是有改善的空間因此本席提出租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、三十八條之二條文修正草案"},{"start":5534.35,"end":5541.481,"text":"除了既有的包租登錄之外,也讓代管納入實價登錄系統,逐步來落實租賃市場的透明化。"},{"start":5543.905,"end":5564.713,"text":"本席同時也要代表國民黨黨團作出說明,國民黨黨團的版本跟本席的版本方向一致,但強度有差。國民黨黨團的版本主張連租屋補貼的部分也要納入這個透明化的機制,換言之把這樣子的一個義務,這個讓這個租賃人有申報的這樣子的一個義務,但不管"},{"start":5565.933,"end":5583.988,"text":"這個今天的討論可以達成什麼的程度?我們都希望我們都希望可以往前邁一步我想這是比較重要的我們當然了解這個行政院內政部應該也會我想行政院不反對推動租屋市場透明化但我們不希望這個只淪為口號而沒有逐年逐年的進展"},{"start":5584.768,"end":5602.321,"text":"所以我們希望先透過相對衝擊較小的租賃條例來做修正未來我們也會提出住宅法相關的修正目標一定要在這一屆裡面讓我們的租屋市場有顯著改善這個透明化的進度必須要讓大家看到成果"},{"start":5602.941,"end":5615.454,"text":"按照現行規定包租貸款業者在成立契約後30日就要把相關資訊提供給地方政府政府手上其實已經有足夠的相關資訊本期之前在質詢內政部長的時候也講擴大租金補貼的申請戶數51萬加上包租貸款的8萬餘件政府其實"},{"start":5619.938,"end":5636.507,"text":"可以只要透過整理跟法規的修正可以有效掌握可以高達60萬件的注定契約如果這些東西可以有效的來做公佈有效來做透明其實就可以導引租屋市場全體走向透明我們希望透過法條的修正配套措施的擬定讓這個租屋"},{"start":5638.448,"end":5663.076,"text":"市場的透明化可以有更顯著的進展讓未來的實價登錄網上有更多的租屋資訊提供民眾參考也讓大眾知道租屋地點附近的租金行情藉由比價讓房東在定價時能夠審慎而不是因為這個資訊的不透明而有收取超額利潤的機會本期相信只有市場正常包租貸款政策才會成功包租貸款的業者"},{"start":5663.536,"end":5680.973,"text":"才會有未來真正更多的商機。最後我們要感謝高津昭委的排案,也懇請各位同仁在名稱法案的部分我們捐濟成見,予以大力支持。以上,謝謝。好,非常謝謝田安委員、牛煦庭委員的提案。說明,我們現在請內政部劉部長釋放來做報告。"},{"start":5686.945,"end":5703.818,"text":"謝謝昭偉,也謝謝各位內政委員會的委員以及列席的官員。今天貴委員會開會,審查大院國民黨立法院黨團還有牛委員許庭等18人所提租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例的部分條文修正草案,一共有兩案。"},{"start":5704.699,"end":5728.268,"text":"那內政部應邀列席報告深感榮幸那對於國民黨立院黨團跟牛委員等18人所推動租屋市場透明化的用心跟努力表達謝意那其實長久以來不管是藍綠黨團或者是民眾黨黨團對於租屋市場透明化其實都是我們努力達成的目標那也是無非說對於很多年輕世代在租屋市場上面能夠獲得比較正確的資訊"},{"start":5730.129,"end":5730.209,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":5752.819,"end":5759.204,"text":"內政部在推動有關租屋市場透明化的時候不是只有根據現在所說的租賃住宅市場發展跟管理條例的部分條文而是我們根據住宅法還有不動產經濟業者以及若干的租賃市場的發展條例來做全面性的參考那到目前為止在內政部裡面所"},{"start":5774.714,"end":5781.297,"text":"登錄的部分包括租金補貼或者包括包租貸款已經超過有60萬戶那我們在做這個內部的滿意度的時候滿意度也非常的高但是仍然有改善的空間所以我們就針對這個國民黨黨團提案的部分還有牛委員徐庭所提案的部分跟大院做一個簡單的報告第一個國民黨黨團所提案修正明定全面租賃實價登錄的部分"},{"start":5801.746,"end":5805.369,"text":"內政部在111年的時候曾經邀集了22個地方政府來開會嚴商全面租賃實價登錄的議題當時的22個地方政府都認為租賃實價登錄雖然有助租屋資訊的透明但是也有可能面臨在租屋市場租金上漲或者是租屋釋出減少等不利民眾租屋的衝擊"},{"start":5827.808,"end":5831.331,"text":"也就是說22個地方政府都認為它的衝擊性是在於租屋的房客那所以認為現階段尚不宜推動全面的實價登錄此外在租賃契約經過租賃雙方合意就成立不會以書面登記為必要契約的成立及實際內容不亦全面掌控"},{"start":5848.948,"end":5852.749,"text":"也就是說契約裡面所登錄的這個價格是實或是虛或者是有不實的狀況可能也會面臨出租人第一個也就是房東規避申報登錄或者以不實作價登錄的方式來誤導紐區租屋市場的資訊這個情形反而會影響提供租屋資訊的正確性那對於檢舉獎金的機制雖然看起來是可以協助租賃實價登錄的稽查"},{"start":5877.697,"end":5897.347,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十"},{"start":5901.169,"end":5920.02,"text":"在租賃住宅服務業所提供的資訊當中,其中,包租契約簽訂後,業者將再轉租於房客。包租契約的成交租金資訊尚不具市場的參考性。再來,代管契約則為業者受委託管理事務及代管費用的規定。"},{"start":5920.72,"end":5925.902,"text":"也非租賃契約的租金行情資訊,如果這些資訊也由地方政府全部進行辦理實價登錄,也會造成租屋資訊的混亂。更何況,很多租客或是房東他是跨縣市地方政府的,那這個也會有置私欲焚的考量。"},{"start":5938.827,"end":5963.735,"text":"二、在有關設宅代管的案件方面因為業者需要重建媒合符合資格的房客涉及重建居間的行為依照現行的規定已經需要申報租賃時價登錄至於設宅以外一般代管的租賃契約資訊因為約定的代管事項非以代收租金為必要業者未必能夠掌握真實的租金訊息"},{"start":5964.855,"end":5980.692,"text":"且如因此而申報不實受到裁罰,將會衍生不同的爭議,而且是屬於房東跟房客之間的民法上面的爭議比較多,所以要建議需要再謹慎來評估修法效益和可行性。"},{"start":5981.372,"end":6001.471,"text":"三、對於租賃實價登錄主要在提供租屋市場交易行情資訊參考為租屋資訊透明化的方法之一。內政部目前規劃將透過已經收集到的租賃實價登錄還有包租代管及租金補貼等等資料在有三個原則下第一個去識別化"},{"start":6002.091,"end":6018.802,"text":"二、個人資料保護可以獲得保護。第三、不修法的原則下,會儘速辦理以區域為主的租金行情等相關統計分析,並且適時對外來發布,讓民眾更能夠了解租賃市場的情形,增加透明度。"},{"start":6032.652,"end":6035.154,"text":"提供給各位大院委員來做參考以上報告"},{"start":6056.613,"end":6056.813,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":6091.864,"end":6120.047,"text":"張委員早來部長早部長其實整個租屋的市場透明化我相信這個也是內政部要努力的目標嘛是的對啦但我今天的這個修法我有兩點要請問一下部長部長我們現在所有的300億的租屋補貼當中如果我所有的年輕人我要得到租屋補貼需不需要修這個法"},{"start":6121.035,"end":6142.416,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":6144.71,"end":6173.589,"text":"我們希望的是年輕人要租房子或有需要租房子的人能夠用最快最合理的速度去租到房子這是我們努力的目標吧當然沒錯嘛是所以部長問題來了如果今天這個法令這樣通過之後每個都要都要申報的話部長同一個區段同一個大樓"},{"start":6175.919,"end":6178.34,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":6194.224,"end":6194.764,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":6210.669,"end":6232.745,"text":"這會不會造成到時候租金上漲的一個壓力來源?部長擔不擔心?是,報告委員其實就是我剛剛在報告裡面跟大家提的我們在111年的時候邀集22個地方政府尤其是六都租客房租比較多的地方那他們地方政府也表達同樣的憂慮"},{"start":6234.206,"end":6234.326,"text":"租賃住宅法"},{"start":6253.163,"end":6262.229,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":6271.434,"end":6291.836,"text":"我們採取去識別化,然後可以保護個人資料的部分用區段式的來部分公佈,讓真正想要租屋的人或即將要租屋的年輕人知道他所想要去的區位大概的市場行情是多少,這樣子比較不會出現就是說前言或是前法跟後法上面的矛盾的差異。"},{"start":6293.037,"end":6320.597,"text":"部長你的看法我是支持的就像你剛剛說的如果要介入到很詳細的個資第一個會變成有些人我乾脆有房子不要出租好了我就放在那邊你會不會擔心有這種情況發生實際上你會不會有這種情況發生我相信一定會有啦一定會有而且我們在多次跟這個包租代管業者在座談當中也有聽到這樣的聲音"},{"start":6322.479,"end":6341.945,"text":"實際上確實會有這種事情發生所以我其實我的看法跟部長是有點相同我覺得租屋的這個市場要不要透明化我覺得我們要朝透明化的方向去走但如果一次走到"},{"start":6343.035,"end":6357.095,"text":"每一個介入到門牌號碼每一個的我覺得會讓很多本來想要出租的人打退堂鼓反而你很多房子我們要他出來的不見了他收回去的他不出租了所以我認為"},{"start":6358.337,"end":6387.298,"text":"今天這個法其實我認為啦要不要修或者是修別的法達到部長所說的就像我們那時候實價登錄我們是先從區塊開始我們一步一步來我覺得部長我們應該朝這個方向來努力讓他比如說這一個區塊的租屋行情大概是多少我讓要去租屋的人出租人跟成租人大概都有一個標準"},{"start":6388.098,"end":6406.015,"text":"但又不是一個絕對的對不對這樣有兩個好處第一個避免租金往上一直調一直調我跟你講如果這樣子像他們的修法我跟你講我可以去弄一間比較好一點的然後我把租金往上調高五千塊"},{"start":6407.585,"end":6409.288,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。"},{"start":6422.133,"end":6439.082,"text":"我們用區塊來做的,在不修法的情況下,做不做得到?是,我們依照剛剛委員的指示的方向,其實有做過研議,就是我們如果是去識別化,然後推動的是區域租金的行情,提供給租客或是房東來參考,就是他的行情不會是一個定碼,"},{"start":6442.003,"end":6444.224,"text":"租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃"},{"start":6471.271,"end":6471.671,"text":"李柏英委員"},{"start":6492,"end":6497.745,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條"},{"start":6518.769,"end":6535.821,"text":"未來要朝這個租金要朝透明化的方向去走這個大家都其實都同意但是怎麼走可以讓這個租金對所有的這個成住人來講是穩定的那"},{"start":6537.446,"end":6554.114,"text":"出租人跟成租人的關係是和諧的這個是我們希望要朝向透明化的這一個過程裡面希望的有這一個過程不是說變成我們要把這個透明化"},{"start":6555.097,"end":6581.562,"text":"那或者是申請租金補貼的這個過程來造成房客跟房東之間的緊張跟對立的關係其實我們的政策吼有一個內政部有一個政策就是租金補貼的政策其實讓大部分的人都很滿意而且申請租金補貼我之前也呃垂詢過呃林佑昌部長"},{"start":6583.382,"end":6611.824,"text":"申請租金補貼大部分的人申請的到但是來看一下下面最最有糾紛的地方在哪裡可能有糾紛的地方在哪裡第一個就是租金無法申報扣除所的第二個他們很擔心他這個所有的房東其實都很擔心就是契約家住不得申請租金補貼因為房東怕什麼房東怕被課稅"},{"start":6613.618,"end":6642.398,"text":"所以來我要請司長說明一下我們住宅法第三條、第十五條、第十六條的內容司長你可以說明一下這個內容嗎我們請那個沒關係讓司長講用他的觀點講住宅法裡面的剛剛委員提到那三條其實主要的部分當時就是去年通過了那個住宅法施行那個住宅法裡面很重要一點就是說"},{"start":6643.37,"end":6644.211,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":6663.755,"end":6681.545,"text":"房客有申請租金補貼但依照住宅法第三條、第十五條、第十六條他是排除稅捐積增法的第21條他不能作為追稅房東的依據但是房東還是會害怕"},{"start":6683.227,"end":6702.23,"text":"如果我們去執行租金全部實價登錄那房東不是怕死了第一個我房子不租了如果真的房子很多了第一個我房子不租了不租給人家了供給量少了租金就上來了第二個"},{"start":6703.871,"end":6732.262,"text":"真的實價登錄以後如果真的每一戶實價登錄以後這一棟大樓每一戶都給你漲價因為有一戶裝潢比較好嘛15樓租3萬12樓15樓租3萬我20樓怎麼可能租3萬以下會有這個心理會造成更多的這些可能租金的波動所以基於這個房租的這個穩定來講的話其實我們是主張"},{"start":6733.542,"end":6749.807,"text":"要部分的公布區塊的公布比如說美術館區巨蛋區他如果是三房的大概是多少錢那他的屋齡是多少大概是多少或是這一條路上這個捷運站附近的大概是多少"},{"start":6750.489,"end":6753.311,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。"},{"start":6768.244,"end":6783.98,"text":"這一個修法的討論可以實際上加惠到所有的租屋人我們其實也做了這個相關用租屋電費的這個新制那還是有一些問題我想要這邊再就教"},{"start":6784.98,"end":6811.089,"text":"如果我們從今年7月4號我們內政部自己整理我們的用電度數等等問題那如果以救濟來講的話如果這個合約租屋的合約走到一半房東不願意採取新的這個內政部其實也應該要有一個救濟的方式比如說我們現在租屋糾紛租屋有糾紛的時候去找誰?去找小保官"},{"start":6812.469,"end":6834.224,"text":"我其實一直想建議內政部遇到租屋有糾紛的時候既然我們有租屋補貼內政部是不是有一個專責的單位出來協調這個租屋的糾紛包含這個電費我們公佈實施之後如果這個合約契約是在進行當中房東不願意更改"},{"start":6834.924,"end":6858.893,"text":"那我們要怎麼樣去保護到我們的成租人還有剛剛所講的如果我們要公佈區域性的這些租金的話我們要怎麼樣維持這些房價的穩定這些都需要內政部做第一線而不是讓地方政府的小保官去處理來請次長做一個簡單的回應"},{"start":6860.618,"end":6882.159,"text":"有關於舊契約部分,我們當然不溯及既往,但是房客其實是可以討論。我希望內政部可以介入協助,不是交給小寶端。是不是可以公佈一個專責的單位,讓租客有遇到這些問題的時候就可以協助他們?地方地政局還有我們一些法輔的單位,我們都會協助介入。"},{"start":6884.021,"end":6885.261,"text":"主席,我們有請我們的內政部次長。好,有請董事長。"},{"start":6915.911,"end":6934.064,"text":"想要請教一下,因為我們的民眾黨一直都很注重居住正義這個議題而現在人民面臨的就是買不起又住不起等不到的困境回顧執政黨八年來,居住正義從來沒有實現過,一直以來"},{"start":6937.646,"end":6965.759,"text":"全世界最不正義房市就是我們臺灣房價所得比可以說節節一個升高所以買不到房子的負擔越來越大在買不起和等不到的狀況下民眾只能退而求其棄租屋但租屋市場不但資訊不足不透明更沒有居住品質的保障形成租屋黑市"},{"start":6966.946,"end":6983.751,"text":"所以租屋黑市是否透過全面推動租屋實際登錄來改善,或者是推動有爭議,是否逐步的推動的可能,跨出健全租屋市場的第一步。好,謝謝委員垂詢。我想"},{"start":6989.366,"end":7017.516,"text":"本部的立場從過去到現在一直是如此就是我們在推動居住正義這件事情上是不遺餘力而且我們跟民眾站在一起我們希望讓整個國家的住宅政策是透明化而且是公平的那基於這樣的原則之下我們當然非常樂意接受許多來自民間跟委員們的建議我們希望透過逐步的方式來讓整個市場能夠比較健全那在這個健全的推動過程裡面呢"},{"start":7017.956,"end":7031.705,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展"},{"start":7047.094,"end":7075.3,"text":"出租者他本身因為資訊的不對稱或等等他會擔心而他把房子就空下來不租了這反而會擠壓到住宅市場而且造成住宅市場的不公所以我們希望能夠透過逐步的方式一步一步的引導大家往一個社會的共識然後資訊的逐步透明化讓年輕人讓有需要的人能夠在完整的一個相對清楚的資訊之下獲得最佳的房子"},{"start":7076.044,"end":7100.023,"text":"是,所以三屆在進行就是租收租宅市場發展及管理條例協商時確定包租業和房東定在包租企業進行的實價登錄,所以現在的法規就僅將就是包租的有納入實際登錄,但是代管的"},{"start":7100.743,"end":7122.661,"text":"租屋越來越多,甚至經過包租的兩三倍了。這樣子的租屋市場的狀況,內政部是否是全面張包租貸款就納入登錄呢?所以沒有看到,所以大家有看到這個數據。所以更進一步來說,就是房東還有房屋的"},{"start":7123.379,"end":7140.179,"text":"租給的租金,就是說公益租屋的人房東享有政府給予的優惠,但是因此更多的義務也給合法的範圍,內政部認為公益租屋的是否也應該實際登錄。這個部分。"},{"start":7143.905,"end":7173.22,"text":"跟委員報告,謝謝委員垂詢。那麼委員所提到的就是說包租貸管的部分在設宅的部分我們包租與貸管都已經納入實價登錄的系統裡面所以我們現在只要是所以兩個都有登錄嗎?對現在因為我們在看到的只有就是包租有登錄但是貸管是沒有看到實質的登錄我們都有,包租設宅的包租與貸管我們都有納入登錄體系這也是我們剛才所強調的"},{"start":7174,"end":7174.06,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":7192.199,"end":7220.037,"text":"民進黨過去的執政期間臺灣就是面臨就是多經濟的挑戰但是其中就是暴漲就是不論是年輕人還是我們的壯世代就是普遍感受到就是房價帶來的壓力社會住宅提供不足的讓大家普遍的關心的問題所以現在面臨的狀況政府一直宣布就是在打房所以呢在政治"},{"start":7220.777,"end":7241.289,"text":"上就是漲價因此我們希望內政部在掌握當下的房價的走勢是所回落還是說在漲價所以政府相關的政策是否何時實際的影響到現在的房價的狀況是漲還是漲呢"},{"start":7244.349,"end":7245.17,"text":"所以現在是我們的房價是漲價還是漲價?"},{"start":7267.263,"end":7293.416,"text":"房價基本上是要回歸到市場的需求那臺灣在過去這幾年因為我們的經濟的發展所以相關的我們因為經濟的發展的關係所以市場的狀況他當然因為油資的過多他有一些發展但是內政部跟行政院我們其實有積極的許多的政策主張以及政策的實施讓整個房價有一個穩定性的狀態我們目前就是在推薦推"},{"start":7294.817,"end":7322.031,"text":"推廣了就是說我們現在的新清安貸款這個部分但是目前我們在臺灣薪資所得的就是只有50萬左右而已但是呢說50%民眾薪資所得的中微數但是每年只有50萬左右但這個舉例來說臺北市現在的新建案就是單價就將近120萬了"},{"start":7324.492,"end":7334.478,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":7340.882,"end":7357.45,"text":"所以這樣子的一個方案新金安的貸款這樣子的方案對年輕人是真正的有幫助嗎還是有創造他們更多的負擔還有創造更多的中古屋變成是漲價"},{"start":7359.885,"end":7362.927,"text":"這個部分我們希望就是我們內政部這邊要重視要怎麼樣更符合我們年輕人的口袋還有他的薪資這個部分要請我們的市長要去努力"},{"start":7389.645,"end":7390.525,"text":"主席"},{"start":7416.793,"end":7418.594,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":7435.026,"end":7453.293,"text":"那其實過去啊都知道說這個在租屋市場裡面可能會因為租屋族怕房東漲租就不敢爭取應有的權利但我知道說這幾年其實我們很努力包括說租屋族其實只要拿著他的租賃契約就可以跟我們政府來申請租屋補貼"},{"start":7455.054,"end":7460.615,"text":"那其實就有很多程序不需要說還要跟房東在這邊有什麼他們礙於房東的壓力所以導致說怕他變相漲價所以就不敢跟房東說他們要拿這個去申請補貼的事情這是我們過去已經做到的但是現在當然就要進一步的談怎麼讓租屋的黑市再更加的資訊"},{"start":7478.999,"end":7479.3,"text":"市場的透明"},{"start":7490.339,"end":7509.15,"text":"那跟委員報告,我們依據我們相關的經濟業管理條例,那我們現在目前,不動產經濟業者或者是居間代理成交的租賃都應該要實價申報。所以這部分就是說,他只要是包租代管的業者等等,他們的資訊就一定要公開。這是我們目前法令的規定。那"},{"start":7510.911,"end":7523.615,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":7535.139,"end":7550.358,"text":"讓民眾可以了解租賃市場的狀態因為我們也要跟委員跟大家報告租賃市場是一個多元複雜的每一個人想要租的房子形態不一樣區位不一樣包括每一個房間的房型不一樣那變動性也很多因為有人租短期有人租長期"},{"start":7550.979,"end":7570.632,"text":"所以我們在整個登錄的過程裡面,如果我們Lockate的到每一個住戶本身,事實上他會有一些資訊的不對稱性跟一個資訊的短暫性的不穩定那這些不穩定就會造成市場上的資訊的模糊跟錯亂那這些資訊錯亂就會造成有心者他去操弄這個房價"},{"start":7571.773,"end":7596.541,"text":"反而造成對年輕人來講這個租屋市場的更加的不公平所以我們希望說透過區間一個比較穩定性的概念那麼讓大家有一個參考值透過這個參考值來做進行的一些相關的判斷怎麼樣租賃那事實上在國外這也是行之有年的方法我們希望說能夠透過這樣的方式逐步逐步的讓我們的租屋市場透明化公平性都能夠達到"},{"start":7597.349,"end":7602.732,"text":"好,所以這樣子的你們預計要公佈的這種區間式的資訊什麼時候會公佈?跟委員報告,我想目前我們也會來整理這個資料,那我們盡量"},{"start":7615.39,"end":7634.205,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":7644.013,"end":7645.215,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7660.816,"end":7661.376,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":7677.441,"end":7688.332,"text":"而這個資訊其實是區段間的好處是在於說因為每個人想要出租的房型或者是每個租屋的人想要居住的房型形態不一樣時間長短就我剛剛講時間長短也不一樣沒錯有人短租有人長租然後有些就是他其實因為租屋的確實他需要的需求就會很細緻是這樣沒錯"},{"start":7697.421,"end":7722.306,"text":"那也跟委員報告事實上我們從去年開始我們也補助各大學從大學生18歲開始那他住學校宿舍或什麼我們也都鼓勵他們可以申請甚至我們就直接補貼那很多大學也都配合所以在這個過程裡面事實上許多大學生都有受到許多的那個幫助我想這個都是我們在整個居住正義政策裡面我們逐步逐步要來落實的一件事情"},{"start":7722.626,"end":7740.752,"text":"好謝謝次長那我也希望說在這個公開的過程當中千萬不能讓房東把成本再次轉嫁到消費者身上那另外一件事情也是提醒說我們在公開的過程還是要鼓勵這一些房東做公益的出租因為我們還是希望降低空房率空污率"},{"start":7741.893,"end":7758.965,"text":"我們還是鼓勵這些擁有房子的人盡量的把房子拿出來使用那這個活化率是很重要的所以我希望同時兼顧這兩件事我們在住宅法裡面也明確說明了那整個的那個出租者公益出租者他基本上他是享有一定的免稅額而且會有一些適當的保障"},{"start":7760.046,"end":7760.186,"text":"好,謝謝次長。"},{"start":7783.186,"end":7783.546,"text":"請董事長"},{"start":7808.556,"end":7829.249,"text":"市長好我們時間短短我們直接進入我想今天大家真的關心的這個問題就是不准是任何世代只要是有租屋需求的民眾都非常的希望能夠知道如何能夠讓這個市場能夠更透明化讓大家能夠租到理想的房子並且是用心中想要的價錢"},{"start":7830.309,"end":7858.962,"text":"那可是我們這樣來看其實這幾年這八年小英政府的時代其實做了非常非常多的政策引導在這段期間我們主要是用鼓勵的方式所以在我看起來其實是用了這個不管是實價登錄的部分或者是包租代管的部分然後尤其是租金補貼的部分主要是用租金補貼的部分來引導大家你有登錄的把這個約租約拿出來的我就給你補助用鼓勵的方式來那你看這樣的"},{"start":7859.602,"end":7880.684,"text":"有效契約的涵蓋率以這個全國和六都來看這幾年確確實實是大幅提高以這個數據來看每個幾乎都是成長甚至是兩倍到三倍的狀況這個圖市長同意嗎是這個確實是大幅的提高好那你覺得呢我剛剛是說這是用有效政策獎勵政策來引導那你覺得主要的原因是什麼"},{"start":7881.264,"end":7907.059,"text":"我想整個的那個契約涵蓋率能夠提高最重要原因還是在於說政府我們修訂了住宅法之後我們讓大家有一個免稅額那也讓租屋市場比較透明化最重要的事情是房東他自己本身也不需要花很多精力去照顧因為我們包租代管業者這個產業非常成熟是好那可是這樣子來看啊你看這樣我們把六多六個直轄市一排排出來很明顯的雙北是最低的"},{"start":7907.839,"end":7933.568,"text":"就算我們一樣是在雙北也有成長喔可是成長的幅度不但不如其他的四都而且是在六都裡面明顯的是非常低的至少少了20%啊那所以你覺得你又怎麼看這個部分因為坦白講租屋市場最有需要的就是雙北地區啊所以我們覺得這個政策有效但雙北是低的那你現在有什麼解方"},{"start":7934.946,"end":7963.526,"text":"我想雙北地區的房價第一個他的房價跟他的那個租屋的市場的狀態可能有一些跟其他地方比起來比較不完整不完整的地方包括說他的居住環境空間可能使得房東他覺得他並不想要參與這樣的一個市場的登記或者是參與包租代管業的登記因為這個涉及到市場的房型等等所以他覺得說他透過其他的方式可以獲得"},{"start":7964.326,"end":7984.846,"text":"那另外一個當然就是說有效契約的涵蓋的狀況也來自於說整個包租代管業者他能介入的程度多少也就是說這個地方的租屋市場的需求量很大大到業者本身就是租出租人本身他不需要別人介入他自己就可以親手去看一個東西他就有人買那個要租"},{"start":7987.629,"end":7997.613,"text":"市長我覺得你這個回答非常的誠實而且誠意啦所以我把時間留給你讓你講完但是你用正面的語句描述了這樣的狀況我們也不得不承認這就是表示還有問題嘛表示還有問題"},{"start":8003.576,"end":8032.494,"text":"那所以在這樣還有問題的下面來講你看我從前面一開始先鼓勵你們說你們這個政策不錯有效引導所以提高很多但是接下來我就告訴你雙北還是有狀況好那所以我們的獎勵手段已經出鏡了嗎還有沒有更多的手段可以用呢還是如同今天我們要討論的我坦白講話鋒一轉就是到今天國民黨團或者是有委員提出的版本其實就是在胡蘿蔔用盡之後他現在要開始用棒子要拿出來了"},{"start":8033.354,"end":8037.379,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8051.836,"end":8071.776,"text":"還有這支棒子也就是國民黨團他們提出來的版本這樣對我們的問題真的能夠解決嗎還是又產生了新的問題因為過去我們在講這個包租代管把合約拿出來或者是租金補貼的時候其實考量到很大的一部分除了行政實際上可不可行能不能夠"},{"start":8072.817,"end":8090.342,"text":"有效的拿出來還是說法律定一定其實大家根本市場做不到這是一個另外一個就是曾租雙方租賃雙方的關係也是大家必須要考慮的這是我們能夠想到的那次長我請你回答這個問題現在是拿出棒子的時候了嗎我們今天要討論的是他們的版本當中這個棒子合用合規嗎真的能解決問題嗎請作答"},{"start":8096.684,"end":8097.545,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":8126.844,"end":8152.941,"text":"租屋市場是一個自由經濟市場沒錯這個自由經濟市場當你拿出胡蘿…當你拿出胡蘿蔔的時候它意願比較高對當你拿出棍子的時候它就轉入地下化它的地下化程度會更高因為它不需要是它不需要政府的介入或者不需要什麼它就可以自己做一些事情所以很多時候站在我們的立場是我們會期待的事情是我們透過更多的鼓勵然後政策的積極的介入是讓更多的業者去搜尋這些相關的"},{"start":8154.102,"end":8154.202,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":8172.797,"end":8192.894,"text":"反而導致情況更惡劣嗎?這都是很有可能的事情啦所以說實在的我們今天在討論這個政策需要非常細緻的原因而且要把利弊都能夠兩邊呈現在所有民眾的面前我們只是民意代表而已啊我們也不可能有天眾英明完成的所有一次問題在這裡解決但"},{"start":8194.295,"end":8209.163,"text":"我認為從這個表單來看我們可以很清楚看到過去的獎勵政策是有效的是大幅度有效的所以我個人認為反而會是既然它有效而且促進是多方關係良善那麼反而我們是不是應該把力氣花在雙北地方"},{"start":8210.163,"end":8229.6,"text":"有效的政策可以更大推廣會比今天修法以後陷入強制關係這種裁罰關係的修法會比較適當這是我的意見啦也請等一下如果我們有機會討論主條的時候也請內政部多表示意見是謝謝委員追尋謝謝好謝謝橋惠委員的質詢謝謝也謝謝次長和司長接下來我們請王美惠委員質詢"},{"start":8240.956,"end":8245.428,"text":"主席、南鄉政事及市長有請董事長以及我市長"},{"start":8248.766,"end":8258.429,"text":"委員長,今天要為您探討的是租屋市場的透明化。今天是要討論租賃,但在本社要告訴您,在買賣房屋、實價登錄,我們已經14、12年了。你認為這個14、12年對我們的買賃"},{"start":8278.462,"end":8280.866,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之三條文"},{"start":8286.572,"end":8300.806,"text":"你感覺的?跟委員報告,我想整個的住宅市場在整個實價登錄的過程裡面,它提供給大家的是一個完整的資訊,就是說每個區塊的資訊。沒有啦,當然,我現在如果你說實質的登錄嘛,一定是實質的啦。我現在是說,我們的用意就是要讓這裡的房子可以發射嘛。"},{"start":8311.897,"end":8314.938,"text":"結果我覺得沒有,在這十二年的規定當中,沒有那麼熟,又那麼貴,每天開始報告,這個區長開始差不多一千萬,現在又兩三個月,又一千多萬。"},{"start":8331.31,"end":8338.155,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員"},{"start":8354.919,"end":8355.38,"text":"主席"},{"start":8371.02,"end":8373.002,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":8389.381,"end":8418.608,"text":"到租賃期間當然就是說他有一些關係但是這個關係基本上就取決於更大的市場但是公佈的過程裡面當然就是說我們的主動公平性就是說公平性怎麼創造資訊公開怎麼創造才不會讓大家去做一些變動但是我們不可否認在整個租屋市場在整個一開始的公佈的過程裡面我們會難免會去發現到有些人就是會透過不同的契約模式不同的登記的方法"},{"start":8419.048,"end":8421.869,"text":"因為我先跟你說的是說我們是要公佈因為租賃的人不是像買房子的說到我買來不一定14人買一間而已租賃有時候要三個月半天、一天、兩天"},{"start":8435.214,"end":8451.644,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":8459.528,"end":8462.229,"text":"因為每一個人都希望如果稍微稍微好,但我們有必要做什麼,大家互相探討啦。現在我是要跟你請教說,你說要公佈啦各位,是要我們中央公佈,還是要地方政府來公佈啦。"},{"start":8482.298,"end":8492.225,"text":"來當然是我們內政部來公佈啦這樣齁因為所有的資料要在我們家做去識別化喔好來我們政治 文學哥來你請教如果說專門要透明化的時候在這兩天外你如果有空 還有管理 雷射聲的時候大家都不來齁"},{"start":8506.116,"end":8525.373,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":8529.925,"end":8537.272,"text":"給委員報告,我們之前110...沒有啦,之前我知道兩黨,我知道大家都反對,現在目前我們今天要討論,在你們接到今天要討論的時候,你們有想所有的官司再問一次說,要如何協助我呢?"},{"start":8551.984,"end":8560.75,"text":"不是說叫他們全部都來問一次,但是我在今年四月開會的時候,其實那種討論的時候,他們有來討論一些問題的時候,也有稍微問一下,想要問問說,如果要全面施加登錄這部分,這部分他們也是都沒辦法。"},{"start":8572.429,"end":8598.992,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":8599.895,"end":8605.003,"text":"到今年的年底後,未來我們還有租金的補貼嗎?有沒有?來,感覺有?"},{"start":8613.376,"end":8627.191,"text":"主席在一分鐘時間,抱歉,在這裏面正是剛才有很多我們的董事有講過,住宅法在第三條、十五條、十六條的,有說免稅改移提出的"},{"start":8633.118,"end":8654.725,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":8662.844,"end":8663.184,"text":"租賃主席"},{"start":8671.074,"end":8697.06,"text":"審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十"},{"start":8700.881,"end":8710.268,"text":"有要回答嗎?來30秒因為一開始是接到的,同樣對到他的租金應該是說,因為我們現在有其他的專案查核那專案查核裡面,那我們是針對那一個屋主個人那他屋主個人如果是比較持有多戶的話那我們是針對他那一個人不是啦,我現在就是,你說他孩子如果租了"},{"start":8728.701,"end":8742.232,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8748.336,"end":8748.737,"text":"主席董事長"},{"start":8778.991,"end":8781.192,"text":"租賃市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8799.02,"end":8814.93,"text":"整體就是說整體臺灣的租屋的人數跟現在實價登錄的這個租金的這個比例大概是你們已經掌握到多少的比例多少的百分比是現在已經有這個實價登錄的部分"},{"start":8816.287,"end":8834.874,"text":"那跟委員報告,目前我們根據人口統計資料,我們國內目前應該有大概87萬戶左右的出租戶。那這個87萬戶左右的出租戶,我們透過不同的管道,包括已經收集到的租賃的一些實價登錄,因為包括代管這些社宅的部分,"},{"start":8835.094,"end":8839.356,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":8857.496,"end":8877.818,"text":"我講有效企業就是112年的話這個有效企業我們掌握到的實價登錄有9萬4千筆全部65萬只有9萬多掌握嗎那65萬裡面有56萬是租金補貼的資訊56萬是租金補貼是然後其他9萬是包租代管對好 謝謝"},{"start":8882.247,"end":8896.668,"text":"其實內政部還蠻用心的其實這樣的比例看起來是還蠻不錯的當然還有一些我相信是內政部沒有辦法掌握的一些資料那我請問一下部長其實為什麼沒辦法掌握的最大原因是什麼嗎?"},{"start":8897.774,"end":8901.658,"text":"所以第一個就是房東不願意申報就是租金的問題所以我這邊我有做一個公式給你看"},{"start":8920.234,"end":8940,"text":"現在坊間大家最重視的,如果這個房東一個月的租金三萬塊,如果他房東有做租金補貼跟沒有做租金補貼,我請教一下政事,這個一個會計數學題,他如果這個申報的話,這個租金申報的話,他實拿要拿多少錢?"},{"start":8940.74,"end":8960.491,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":8965.194,"end":8990.154,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":8994.898,"end":9006.612,"text":"他可以拿出來就像剛剛講的這個數量56萬跟9萬那我想要請教的9萬的部分是包租代管56萬是公益出租人可是他們要繳的稅負卻是不一致的"},{"start":9007.168,"end":9025.382,"text":"所以剛剛這個政事有特別提到9萬的包租代管他能扣掉的這個所得稅的費用率是60%可是高達56%的公益出租人就是現在社會上有非常多需要租金補貼的所有的辛苦的一些補優學生他們"},{"start":9026.323,"end":9029.725,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":9046.488,"end":9068.7,"text":"好,我請我們國土署的同仁做一個說明好,謝謝大家的確有意思嘛,對不對對,這個部分我們的確有發現有這個問題那我們也將演繹,正在進行演繹將來來修正、修法,謝謝好,謝謝齁,那今天很開心喔我也要感謝召委啦今天擺盤真的非常辛苦才有辦法召開這個會議喔其實就是要實質的討論喔然後去發現說56萬的公益出租的房東喔"},{"start":9073.803,"end":9096.155,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":9097.418,"end":9098.359,"text":"租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃"},{"start":9126.85,"end":9141.48,"text":"有關於電價的部分我們已經在行政院合訂了新的那個定型契約那這個定型契約我們在7月8號開始已經公告那在7月15號會正式上路我們上路的過程之後呢我們就會明確訂定"},{"start":9142.32,"end":9144.661,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":9158.047,"end":9162.851,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":9181.824,"end":9182.867,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":9189.878,"end":9216.131,"text":"我們會那個請小 就是說只要大家在那個契約簽訂之後那認為這個租金有不實 那麼他就可以去跟小保官申訴那我們也有那個法服 新市政府的相關的法服也都可以提供這些相關的說明跟那個那另外我們也會在我們的網站上面放上這些相關的QA還有一些新型的定型化契約的資料那提供所有的租租人做參考"},{"start":9216.823,"end":9222.474,"text":"好,好,謝謝,那再麻煩你們繼續再,這剛剛提到的問題幫我解決一下,謝謝。好,謝謝張志倫委員的質詢,謝謝,也謝謝次長、市長。好,我們休息三分鐘,謝謝。"},{"start":9600.184,"end":9600.664,"text":"主席董事長"},{"start":9626.411,"end":9642.08,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及"},{"start":9654.467,"end":9676.585,"text":"規定也都引起廠商的質疑都認為有讀後某個廠商的嫌疑再加上去年的審計部審核111年度的內政部住都中心會計報表發現住都中心預計新建約7萬戶的社會住宅有高估租金低估建築費用跟管理費用的問題所以截至112年經費虧損將高達近3000億"},{"start":9681.309,"end":9703.162,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":9707.245,"end":9722.559,"text":"有關於委員所提到的這兩則相關的新聞我們都已經請政風處進行調查相關的調查報告出來的話我們會奉部長呈示看如何我們再跟對外公布"},{"start":9723.021,"end":9745.123,"text":"所以說,內政部也認為這確實有很大的問題嗎?沒有,我們的重點是這樣,就是只要大家有疑義,那我們就請政風來瞭解。那預計什麼時候會有這樣子的一個政風調查出來?因為其實你看到現在,我現在看指出來這幾項其實問題都非常嚴重喔。是,我們儘快,因為政風調查還有它的程序。"},{"start":9746.537,"end":9751.925,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9761.537,"end":9762.258,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":9796.903,"end":9811.039,"text":"首先跟委員報告永續債的部分事實上只是在研議階段而且是相關的銀行業者他們自行的評估那住宅中心目前並還沒有確認要進行這件事情那本部也還在商議當中"},{"start":9812.394,"end":9837.97,"text":"因為現在看起來就是我們現在25萬戶的社會住宅的這個政見因為我們看到下一張表你可以看到目前完工的其實只有3萬戶那規劃中的有將近2萬戶也就是說真正完工才3萬戶那如果以25萬戶的目標的話未來還要興建13萬戶請問一下分年完成的期程如何未來4年會完成幾戶"},{"start":9839.335,"end":9859.353,"text":"那我請那個住宅組的同仁做完整的說明是不是簡單的說明一下因為時間的關係謝謝委員那這個部分我們現在就是包括一、生活圈統籌規劃還有多元取得設宅的方式還有透過整體開發區域取得設宅土地那預計每年大概增加1.1萬戶為目標然後最後一年會有2.5萬戶所以預計這13戶在這個1、2、1年預計來達成以上"},{"start":9866.069,"end":9866.689,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":9884.878,"end":9885.238,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":9907.241,"end":9926.113,"text":"的檢舉或者是申報租金補貼所導致的。那弱勢的房客因為社會經濟會劇烈失沒有房子必須要租屋維生。如果有租金補貼可以讓生活好一點。所以請問部長目前我看目前剛剛的報告是說反對實價登錄嗎?剛剛部長其實是不理是反對實價登錄是嗎?"},{"start":9930.117,"end":9951.277,"text":"我們的政策是這樣就是說我們正在居住正義的立場我們希望讓市場的透明化這點跟各位委員是一致的只是市場透明化的過程裡面我們希望透過一些漸進式的方式避免對市場做最大的擾動因為如果我們快速的通過的時候它會造成有一些業者像這邊講的他可能就不願意把房子拿出來了"},{"start":9951.937,"end":9953.478,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":9971.187,"end":9984.198,"text":"那也跟委員報告其實每個人的租房是租屋的內容也不太一樣有人要住豪宅式的房子有人住要雅房有人只要簡單的套房這些都會造成街市場的問題因為最近國稅局也在講說要展開為期兩年的查核"},{"start":9987.12,"end":10012.739,"text":"預定要對房東開始查逃漏稅的問題那當然如果這樣的話不是代表說也有可能引起一些糾紛嗎也有可能房東和房客的信任值也會因為這樣子來打破所以我覺得如果沒有辦法你剛講的這個部分沒有辦法說實施租賃的實價登錄那我們是不是可以先從政府所主導的包租代管或者是社會住宅先來實行"},{"start":10014.14,"end":10043.017,"text":"目前我們的政策就是希望說逐步逐步把我們目前手上所擁有的一些資訊我們慢慢的做整理這部分我請市長來做一個更完整的說明各位報告我們目前的那個設宅的包租代管的實價登錄都有落實都有執行這是設宅的部分都有做那包租代管呢包租代管的部分我們去年修法了就是說轉租的部分我們目前也納入"},{"start":10043.669,"end":10044.59,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":10063.309,"end":10080.502,"text":"在不修法的狀態之下那我們透過行政的方式把這個居住正義這件事情把它達到因為修法會造成我們再一次跟各位委員報告修法還是希望就是內政部要針對這個居住正義那也待會我們會充分的討論好不好謝謝好非常謝謝徐議政委員的質詢謝謝謝謝次長謝謝司長繼續我們請黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":10098.596,"end":10101.837,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條"},{"start":10127.683,"end":10149.977,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":10154.62,"end":10181.566,"text":"請問我們內政部是否願意支持本席的這個爭取呢?好,我請市長做完整回覆,謝謝。好,謝謝委員。這個部分那個測量人員也就包括助理包括A股人員以及我們的正式的測量編制類測量人員的這個加薪的這個部分目前我們從去年已經有研議那今年也有研議那事實上目前的整個方案也有報到行政院"},{"start":10182.363,"end":10210.828,"text":"好,謝謝我們內政部這邊的認同本席也希望市長能夠儘速的跟我們行政院來溝通那讓新增調整的這個案子能夠早日完成那有需要協助的地方本席一定全力的支持一起提升我們基層公務人員的這個待遇那好,因為會問到這個是因為最近我們討論的時間越來越少那會期快結束只好利用這樣的時間來跟各位來反映那我們希望未來能夠在討論上能夠更順暢會能夠更順暢進行那我們就回到今天討論的議題"},{"start":10212.228,"end":10241.608,"text":"那我想今天針對我們租賃條例的討論我想還是要表達許多租主的心聲我想現在的明年新年不是討論買不買得起房而是先求能夠租得起這個房我想問市長你知道今年房價漲多少嗎今年房價漲多少現在市場的Value不一定所以要看區塊那知道今年的房價房租漲多少嗎"},{"start":10243.507,"end":10243.567,"text":"租賃租賃"},{"start":10258.767,"end":10283.427,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":10284.568,"end":10296.495,"text":"其中對我們租客來講除了考慮地段以外屋領這部分也是很重要的因素嘛對不對那我們台北市中央區委員會在實價登錄的網站裡面一年來我們有571筆的資料裡面有210筆的屋領都是領"},{"start":10302.605,"end":10306.687,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之四條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":10327.635,"end":10342.586,"text":"蔡英文總統在2016年提出的這個防事三件的政策裡面其中有一個就是在講到現權租屋體系我想請問現在三件當時的三件現在設到什麼地方既然我們過去民進黨八年執政都沒有做的部分我們國民黨來做嗎"},{"start":10344.685,"end":10373.079,"text":"我們這次修法的重點有三個部分第一個就是強化我們租賃市場的透明化我要保障租客的權益第二個就是我們不動產實價登錄的目的是為了避免賣方的壟斷當初政府推出不動產實價登錄的目的不就是為了避免人為的烘台房價嗎那為什麼現在對我們租屋的實價登錄卻讓租屋節節的升高我們內政部的書面報告根本就是互相自相矛盾這我也反對我也反對那第三個"},{"start":10374.703,"end":10395.374,"text":"買賣登錄是不時可以來罰為什麼租屋就不可以為什麼針對我們買屋政府就願意用罰款的方式來保障那對於租賃的市場卻是兩手一攤這根本是雙重標準最後這邊我跟市長市長在那份提出的這個書面報告裡面提到將透過已收集到的租賃實價登錄包括"},{"start":10397.115,"end":10414.226,"text":"包租代管及租金補貼的資料,會儘速辦理區域租金行情等相關統計分析,並適時的對外發布。這一段話過去內政部在8年前已經說過了,那現在進度在哪裡?多久可以給外界報告?我想請市長回答。市長"},{"start":10416.481,"end":10416.981,"text":"根委員報告"},{"start":10431.848,"end":10432.449,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":10456.485,"end":10467.334,"text":"租屋補貼、租金補貼、直接興建跟包租代管。事實上我們已經在一定程度上讓整個居住市場有一定的穩定性。"},{"start":10467.864,"end":10491.028,"text":"那當然隨著國家的經濟的成長跟發展在一定程度上我們的因為經濟成長好所以他對租金對整個租屋市場都有一些推動這我們不可否認所以我們會進一步的去透過不同的方式跟管道那包括委員所提到的我們透過漸進式的方式我們讓租屋市場能夠公開透明好謝謝董事長謝謝主席謝謝委員好謝謝監兵委員謝謝次長繼續我們請吳啟明召委"},{"start":10502.923,"end":10505.148,"text":"主席以及議會同仁請我們內政部處長有請總次長"},{"start":10516.002,"end":10541.034,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":10542.074,"end":10567.512,"text":"因為社會住宅的需求需求量都非常的高尤其抽籤率的比例都還是偏低做差不多兩成那對一些年輕人對一些沒有房子的居住爭議這是我們政府要去推動那大家都知道我們在都會區裡面的房子房價都過高"},{"start":10568.513,"end":10593.958,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":10594.986,"end":10612.462,"text":"唯一就是找我們公家的土地這適度是最快因為有很多土地我們還是需要說我們中央跟地方來合作目前要達到這25萬戶真的你要是沒有跟地方來合作的話"},{"start":10613.063,"end":10613.584,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":10629.462,"end":10652.362,"text":"好,那先跟委員報告,我們在未來整個整體開發的過程裡面呢,我們直接興建的社宅,直接興建的社宅,因為社宅政策包括包租貸款,包括租金補貼跟直接興建。直接興建的部分委員比較關心的,那我們未來會用透過整體開發的方式,包括市地重劃跟區段徵收的過程裡面,我們也希望能夠提供3到5%的社宅的土地的提供。"},{"start":10653.102,"end":10680.516,"text":"這已經奉准行政院合定之後我們就會實施那至於相關在那個整個新北市的部分我請我們國債組的同仁說明一下好的委員好就是說在新北市的部分像我們在11年合定的目標是3萬3千戶那目前已經達成了2萬331戶那其中中央的部分這個"},{"start":10682.188,"end":10688.296,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":10701.665,"end":10702.565,"text":"新北市新莊重劃區文拉準面積大5%"},{"start":10722.511,"end":10750.132,"text":"這個土地有沒有辦法取得?我們已經跟新北市在進行討論當中,那我們也希望透過那個跟新北市的協商找到這5%的左右的土地。那新北市政府現在承諾跟我們進行討論。那這堆沒問題吧?我們就陸續我們持續討論中。因為新莊我們那邊啊,那邊的土地好幾百公頃啊。那未來包含我們的大甘嶺,大甘嶺這個地方也好幾百公頃。"},{"start":10751.041,"end":10777.925,"text":"那你要是能取得5%的話我們這速度才會快這一定要跟地方政府來做協調我們會跟地方政府合作因為這是創造雙贏啦相信新北市他也會同意啦因為畢竟新北市很多年輕人大家要取得現在要去購買一間房子大家都知道你一坪差不多多少錢以你們我看你們準不準以我們土層好了啦"},{"start":10779.42,"end":10779.64,"text":"租賃住宅"},{"start":10795.146,"end":10796.147,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":10819.793,"end":10836.661,"text":"你以一般基層的像勞動階級的你根本你要去付我們所訂出來的價格他們還是受不了那你政府的免疫就會變消失了我們政府是要照顧這一些弱勢的"},{"start":10837.361,"end":10837.621,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":10860.575,"end":10863.237,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10879.369,"end":10879.549,"text":"警察局、消防局、"},{"start":10894.923,"end":10910.231,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":10912.211,"end":10933.43,"text":"對,這就是我們的目標,我們未來的目標,一定要朝這個方向,好不好?這是地方大家的需求,真的,兩成,兩成齁,抽籤的比例真的不高阿!是,是,我們的健康,我們的健康。好,謝謝,謝謝。非常謝謝吳清明召委,謝謝,謝謝董事長。司長,繼續我們請劉許廷委員。"},{"start":10942.406,"end":10944.53,"text":"次長有請謝謝主席好 次長吳安 辛苦了"},{"start":10953.157,"end":10978.507,"text":"用這個質詢的時間因為時間比較短針對法條的細節待會有主條討論的時間我們再來一一細究但今天在質詢的時候主要我們要表述的是政策邏輯的問題就是說推動居住正義除了現在政府正在努力的就大幅增加社會住宅的供給量之外其實應該是多管齊下因為你大幅增加社會住宅的邏輯叫做弱勢照顧的邏輯叫做社會福利的邏輯對不對"},{"start":10980.053,"end":10998.735,"text":"沒有 我想我們社會住宅的增加是三支鍵包租代管租金補貼對 我跟你講這些是不是都是在增加社宅的提供增供給量我們在增加社宅的提供給量那社宅不會只僅是社會福利的部分它是一個廣泛性的對於所有居住使用者的需求我們要增加今天我們第一學期中委員在這裡他可以租社宅嗎"},{"start":11000.275,"end":11000.716,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":11020.618,"end":11046.886,"text":"已經變形了,已經變態了。對不對?在購屋市場,房地產金融化,變成操作。對,很多人的需求,變成人家可以做金融槓桿可以操作的金融化商品。所以房價高到,剛剛土層一坪70萬,我這邊歸山也不遑多讓啊。從當初合一住宅的15萬,現在A7重劃區已經是50萬了。15萬變50萬了。那多可怕的一件事。好,這是購屋市場。那麼租屋市場最大的挑戰,其實就是非常的不透明嘛。"},{"start":11047.546,"end":11068.584,"text":"因為我們始終不太敢真的我講我們今天話就潑到底了本期當選民意代表就是要言所當言我們始終不敢面對大家沒有辦法入室申報入室課稅沒有辦法建立市場秩序以至於租屋黑市啊讓很多的房東具有收取超額利潤的空間嘛對不對這就是問題所以我們希望政府在推動居住生意相關政策的時候我們絕對支持大力支持"},{"start":11069.184,"end":11093.153,"text":"大幅提供社宅給最需要的人有幫助但是其他方面的政策邏輯你也要多管齊下我們今天做修法的理由其實比較的重點是在於推動市場的正常化這個內政部前面來跟我們溝通的時候有講嘛我們現在包租代管的總數量大概10萬件左右對不對這個包租25000件代管金75000件左右對不對那我想請問一下他們走的社宅邏輯的總共多少"},{"start":11096.291,"end":11123.682,"text":"也就是說我加入包租貸款但是我是提供社宅也就是我用相對低廉的租金然後限制身份可以承租這樣的數字是多少?剛剛委員提的那個數字的話都是社宅的包租貸款對 總共多少戶嘛?社 包租加量總共十萬戶嘛加入社宅這個政策總共多少戶?我如果用應該算是用"},{"start":11125.387,"end":11140.075,"text":"就包租代管欸你們這樣資料查太慢了九萬七千戶啦對不對然後有三千戶左右是一般人一般住宅走包租代管對不對對那是不是表示你你現在包租代管的十萬戶所謂的成效大部分還是增加了社會住宅的供給量是的是嗎"},{"start":11140.675,"end":11164.754,"text":"可是我們今天修法的重點不是增加社會住宅供給量而是讓一般市場也可以逐步走向正常化換言之這政策設計的邏輯剛剛很多包含內政部來報告的時候包含其他黨委員在質詢的時候有提出若干的一些質疑但我要講如果大家討論的邏輯不在同一個平面上那是沒有意義的我為什麼今天要今天先講這件事情就是因為現在一般的就是非社宅體系的包住宅數量還沒有很多"},{"start":11165.535,"end":11190.451,"text":"所以我們要先把遊戲規則講清楚今天我們修正34條、38條等等其實是讓包租貸款的業者知道未來的遊戲規則這甚至都不是說紅蘿蔔跟棒子的問題因為數量那麼少其實還沒有開始上路還沒有開始真實要使用的需求可是我擔心的是未來如果你一般的包租貸款也就是一般的房東加入包租貸款也就供一般人任何人都可以承租的這樣的數量一多的時候你的規則是絕對改變不了的"},{"start":11192.318,"end":11220.41,"text":"我們今天修法的目的就是讓包租貸款業者知道未來在推動這包租貸款的時候你就是有申報的義務你就是肩負這個臺灣租屋市場透明化的一定的責任對於業者來講對於地方政府來講對於中央政府來講這對事情變多了那是個事實可是這事情變多是有正面意義的那個正面意義在於未來加入包租貸款提早知道遊戲規則讓未來政策可以推動的時候可以順利好那我現在要講剛剛我們講現在十萬戶裡面有九萬七千戶走的是社宅邏輯為什麼"},{"start":11221.75,"end":11245.593,"text":"為什麼大部分人加入包租貸款都是用設宅的方式來提供而不是用一般的方式來提供?請政府說明一下。跟委員說明,其實我那天也有跟委員說明就是說事實上目前來講的話轉租的部分我們在去年已經開始9月1號開始已經轉租的部分也都要實價登錄了。現在委員的版本裡面有一個很大的重點就是貸款的這個部分要進來。"},{"start":11246.334,"end":11261.203,"text":"那我跟委員報告就是說設宅的代管也已經實價登錄了現在唯一的就是一般的嘛還沒嘛一般宅的這個代管這個部分是委員今天要討論的一個重點嘛是好吧那現在的問題是難道不應該做嗎"},{"start":11263.206,"end":11287.854,"text":"沒有我跟委員報告就是說這些事情我們當然會做但是在做的過程裡面其實我們還是要去理解就是說市場上面對於這些事情的反應是什麼我看到內政部的報告啦你擔心說我修正了之後市場的業者會覺得說我的門檻變高了然後我導致我的意願下降對不對你的邏輯是不是這樣說的可是我更擔心的是現在只有3000戶未來啊如果你的政府各方各面的政策更成熟之後變成有30萬戶的時候請問我們還動得了這個規則嗎"},{"start":11291.073,"end":11317.835,"text":"更難了嘛 對不對更難了嘛我們是不是要趁數量還少衝擊小的時候先把規則設定好那市長剛剛跟市長剛剛都沒有回答問題為什麼大家都加入社宅而不是一般因為政府提供了大量的補貼對不對有更好的政策誘因所以我加入包租代管的時候我都提供在社宅這個政策平台我才可以拿到比較多的政府補助這是不是代表我們政府在設計政策的時候對於我推廣一般戶啊"},{"start":11318.996,"end":11343.099,"text":"非社宅體系的政策誘因不足夠應該是吧讓他有比較心嘛所以我提供房子我都是供到社宅那邊而不是供給一般的租戶嘛是啊這也是一個原因啦但是另外一個就是說我們現在整個包租呃代管的這個行業來講的話我們也才成立了對新的嘛新的嘛對不對大家都在磨合對不對那我也是希望所以說這租戶業他能夠很努力的來"},{"start":11344.06,"end":11363.52,"text":"所以先易後難嘛,所以是不是在社宅這部分比較容易,也有比較多的誘因。可是我講嘛,政策邏輯不能只重社宅而忽略市場正常化嘛。我們一般的所謂的市場的部分,其實在我們的租金補貼的部分其實已經納入了。我們未來的政策就是會公佈區間,就是這些租金補貼的資訊我們也會納入區間的資訊裡面,然後讓大家"},{"start":11368.804,"end":11391.497,"text":"你走了租屋補貼或一般的政策誘因之後,如果它透明化,很多的房東就會加入包租貸款,因為方便嘛。可是問題是如果你加入包租貸款,你的政策沒有對齊的話就麻煩嘛。我要講的就是這個事嘛。我知道,可是我們現在已經透過租金補貼的部分,在一定程度上也掌握了相當比例的市場的租金行情。我今天花一點時間去講的邏輯就是,我希望市場正常化的政策誘因也要出來。"},{"start":11391.837,"end":11417.239,"text":"也就是說我現在包租貸款大部分都加入了社宅可是你對一般的我主動加入一般的包租貸款這個平台你政府也要提供更多的誘因跟投資我們現在的做法就是先把遊戲規則確立趁人還少的時候先課予明確的義務啊讓他知道加入這個市場之後要符合什麼樣遊戲規則同時我們今天會用負債決議等等方式要求政府針對這一般戶啊你要有效擴張啊你不能搞了幾年之後還是只有三千戶啊"},{"start":11417.839,"end":11439.654,"text":"目標要變三萬戶甚至三十萬戶嘛這才是一個成功的政策讓他有秩序的來進行包租代管的部分跟租金補貼部分跟社宅部分我們的政策方向跟對應的target本來就是有些不同我們可以再後續我們進一步跟委員做解細節的部分我們就處理好之後再來討論但是這些事情並不會不能執行但我們本席本黨也都不接受寸步不行好不好"},{"start":11439.994,"end":11451.878,"text":"我們沒有說不能執行,我們也沒有說增加行政委員業,我們是希望讓市場能夠穩定,這件事情是最重要的。好,我們待會再詳細討論,謝謝。好,非常謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢,謝謝次長,謝謝次長。繼續我們請低璇中委員。感謝主席,安安恰董次長。請董次長。"},{"start":11465.498,"end":11480.268,"text":"市長好!委員好!我們今天討論租賃住宅市場管理條例的修法的部分。租賃住宅是我們國家的重大建築。因為租賃住宅市場的額數比較大。是這個做法的人有多少?我們有否統計起來?"},{"start":11485.149,"end":11513.185,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":11514.025,"end":11523.632,"text":"說到這個弱勢租客,最多是都入社會年輕的群組,兼聘的負擔是很重要。我們回顧電子階收支國費,這是兩年前的事。我們來盡快排除我們這個租金、實價登錄,雖然你有跟電子階都一樣不一樣,甚至你有中,最重要的是公開租金的租金上漲。"},{"start":11540.785,"end":11558.398,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":11568.365,"end":11583.252,"text":"我認為租金的額外與否與市場有關,但是我們透過目前我們快速地去直接落實到租金的市長每一戶每一戶的直接公開會造成另外一個狀況就是說"},{"start":11584.452,"end":11599.038,"text":"市場的供給的量會下降,因為很多人租房,其實他不是說,我們現在對他的目標是說那種賃貨很多的,譬如說他是大包租公、包租婆,其實市民最多的是什麼,是一些,是大人,他的生活裡面,他可能多一間房子,"},{"start":11604.807,"end":11607.508,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":11635.781,"end":11637.243,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11655.482,"end":11670.793,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":11685.063,"end":11689.605,"text":"希望說全面實施租賃實價登錄發想就來接受這是一定有比較困難像剛才我們次長說的我們要如何一國一國來做到希望我們內政國要有一些具體的規約跟一些政策讓我們看得到如何讓我們租房者的權益可以再加多一個高中不然可能要再討論這個居住正義的修法我們內政國"},{"start":11714.272,"end":11733.361,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":11742.105,"end":11746.789,"text":"這是符合我們的發貨租賃的款項,但減少電費,有可能會提高租金嗎?我們對租金的部分,這當然是定型化企業的意思,我們契約裡面就比較好,租金是安全。"},{"start":11761.081,"end":11762.423,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11777.722,"end":11778.742,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條"},{"start":11800.612,"end":11802.413,"text":"臺電申請公司用電話,有一定的通過。申請完成,可能會做成分一戰鬥出乎不同,來分攤附近的一個爭議,做成我們租客房東的一個爭議。我們推動居住爭議也要靠兩世界,以及我們這個公權的合理性。"},{"start":11820.325,"end":11832.316,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":11842.165,"end":11845.888,"text":"不然真的誇獎到我們這位租客,頂多祖先到我們這個市場的金雕及灶灰就出,這樣,就在這給我們次長提醒一下,感謝次長先靠你,先靠你。感謝委員的指教,謝謝,謝謝。委員剛才提成的事情,我們未來會檢討。好,謝謝,謝謝。好,非常謝謝丁協中委員,謝謝,謝謝次長、次長,繼續我們請許新穎委員。"},{"start":11871.212,"end":11874.413,"text":"依照經濟學的供需理論,當供給大於需求的時候,價格是上漲還是下降?"},{"start":11893.543,"end":11911.029,"text":"公己大於需求當然是下降當然是下降那也很奇怪我們這個現在的自有住宅率高達78.6那我們空閒的住宅也有18.5為什麼房價和房租呢還是一路飆漲"},{"start":11913.092,"end":11940.265,"text":"這個要跟委員報告一般我們當然是市場的供需原則是就是supply demand side的互動可是住宅有一個特殊的狀況是它有所謂的獨一性也就是說這個地點蓋了房子別的地點就就是這個地點就不能蓋另外一間所以它具有一定程度的壟斷性那在經濟學上我們很清楚有壟斷性的地方它就不是一般的單純市場而是具有壟斷性的市場或寡占性市場"},{"start":11940.785,"end":11956.937,"text":"那反正現在台灣就是房價房租一路飆漲嘛那我們今天要談的當然我想您也這個接受很多委員質詢就是租屋黑市的問題嘛對那租屋黑市的問題這個我們現在空屋高達有166.4萬戶那為什麼沒有辦法破那個"},{"start":11969.987,"end":11974.75,"text":"讓民間釋出這些空屋呢?"},{"start":12000.018,"end":12017.317,"text":"對,那但是我們看到日本日本他這個取消固定資產稅的優惠額他讓持有人的成本增加3到4倍所以他的空屋開始釋出可是我們台灣蔡政府之前"},{"start":12017.978,"end":12034.866,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":12035.586,"end":12063.019,"text":"那當然我們了解就是說我們現在300億包租貸款嘛這包租貸款蔡政府花了8年那4年呢過去4年1200億的租金補貼本席想了解每年租金補貼到底你預算300億但是你真正申請然後你真正接受申請的你花掉多少平均平均我請我們國土組來做說明"},{"start":12067.657,"end":12094.335,"text":"你跟委員報告一下,就是說我們租金補貼的部分齁,我們今年度的...今年不要,去年,因為去年整年過掉了嘛,去年,去年你預算應該有300億吧?對,因為去年是第一年開辦300億,所以他的這個,是大概32萬戶左右。300億,那他到底有來申請的你,你到底300億花掉多少?"},{"start":12096.072,"end":12122.509,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":12123.79,"end":12150.343,"text":"請你回答房東會怎麼對就是房客要租屋補貼請問房東下一句話是什麼你一定很清楚嘛不要租你對不對跟委員報告我們其實不是這情況怎麼解決我要聽的是這個我們第一個就是我們透過實際的租屋的住宅調查裡面其實我們就發現因為租金租屋補貼而不去租租的房東其實並沒有很高大概一層左右"},{"start":12151.003,"end":12172.021,"text":"這個就可怕,你知道,你們,所以現在我就擔心我們的官員齁,在實際的市場,我跟你講,現在立法院,立法院,我先講齁,立法院這麼多的助理,很多絕對不一定,有的當然是,但很多不是在涉及在台北,他在台北都租房子。"},{"start":12172.501,"end":12199.744,"text":"還有我們區域立委在各地的助理全部都租房子真正去問一下我看我們就做個問卷在我們委員的助理裡面如實回答一下大部分都黑市啊全部都是黑市租屋你怎麼會說只有一層我跟委員報告就是說整個申請租金補貼本來就不需要房東同意我們目前的修法已經確定不需要房東同意而且房客可以依據消保法第12條去主張"},{"start":12201.525,"end":12221.623,"text":"房客要提出嘛提出以後那個國稅局就還是會去查他嘛我們在法令裡面也明確規定他不得作為他查稅的依據嘛好不查稅對所以基本上他們基本上他只要願意申請我們就會給予然後他如果說在這個過程裡面對我說房東"},{"start":12225.246,"end":12226.708,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12240.506,"end":12268.358,"text":"但是他揭露的情況下比如說我是房東我有20間我這棟房子我有20間小套房出租結果呢有三個要跟我申請就是他要租屋補貼那是不是我這邊的我就所以你的意思說揭露沒有關係不影響他的權益沒有揭露啊我們沒有揭露他申請租金補貼就是他拿來然後我們告訴他他就去申請了就這樣對對他去申請那房東的"},{"start":12269.979,"end":12297.361,"text":"他去申請你們不會去查說有沒有確實是這樣嗎?會吧?他會上傳他的租賃資料。所以你們只看契約就給他了?所以無關乎他的房東的房子你們不會去查?這個是一直這樣嗎?還是現在有改法令?是這一兩年去年開始有改還是?我們就是針對房客提出的資料進行審查。審查合格我們就會撥付租金補貼。"},{"start":12300.127,"end":12328.964,"text":"對,那所以房東的資訊房東的都不會被政府什麼都不會看然後也沒有人會去查房東對,我們不會去查房東因為他房租基本上房租上面就會有一些相關的資訊那甚至我們現在連房東不會有人去查說這邊有一間有租金補貼所以去查說這邊有20間這邊整個都是租出租的,不會對,我們不會主動去做這種查核"},{"start":12329.514,"end":12330.695,"text":"主席紅森漢委員質詢"},{"start":12368.752,"end":12384.542,"text":"主席好請董事長也請董事長董事長我其實在我今天的質詢開始之前我其實想給你一個建議就是因為我剛才聽到你說因為申請租屋補貼而"},{"start":12385.916,"end":12386.256,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":12401.914,"end":12426.464,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":12430.526,"end":12437.426,"text":"跟次長來表達其實今天有很多委員我們都很關注租屋族的權益其實我自己長期也是租屋族"},{"start":12438.325,"end":12463.078,"text":"那都在租房子所以部長我要先肯定其實現在內政部在6月底的時候通過行政院的小保會那會在7月15號上路的租電價的這個新制上面其實這是一個非常大的進展其實從去年的11月開始我就透過幾次的質詢包括跟經濟部跟內政部來討論怎麼樣解決房東利用這個電價來賺差價來獲利的這個漏息"},{"start":12468.121,"end":12493.867,"text":"那我自己的辦公室也我們一直在參與跟內政部的政策的討論這部分坦白說我覺得要給內政部蠻大的肯定那今年的6月28我在我自己的社群平台上面宣傳這個政策即將要公佈實施其實獲得非常非常多年輕網友的好評不過也陸續收到了很多網友跟相關租屋族他們也很多疑問或者是他們有很多的提問"},{"start":12495.168,"end":12522.42,"text":"那我現在看到在內政部的租賃條例的專區裡面有公布一份QA這份QA在租賃專區的QA裡面我有看到那看起來有想要回答一些問題可是說實話我看到這份QA我認為有很大改善的空間舉例來說這個我們現在在社群的平台上面收到最多的問題現在我以上列的這些我們目前看到內政部都還沒有很清楚的解釋比方說舉例"},{"start":12523.661,"end":12538.589,"text":"租賃家的心智是否適用於營業場所﹐比方說百貨公司﹐百貨商場﹐包括夜市﹐小攤商也告訴我說﹐他們往往多架一顆燈﹐就要被夜市的管委會多收費30塊﹐像這算不算﹐電價被超收﹐像這種問題﹐"},{"start":12539.71,"end":12553.99,"text":"二、租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":12555.993,"end":12572.507,"text":"在比方說更多人會問那租客要如何知道有沒有被房東超收電費那這部分其實我們已經跟台電商量好規劃好的一個好的大家去查詢平均電價的機制可是大家也是不知道所以我們需要給大家一些操作型的指引讓大家去做"},{"start":12573.007,"end":12599.89,"text":"再來,房東不能透過電費來賺差價,那是不是會來趁機漲房租?那該怎麼辦?這剛剛前面有一個委員,我記得張志文委員有問到,那執行面上面到底房東要怎麼配合台電才能夠減少麻煩?這些問題我覺得都是重要的問題,但是現在在QA上面我們都沒有看到這些問題。所以部長、次長我要說,其實我們在看到現在的這個租市場上面有很多不同型態的房東跟租客,包括"},{"start":12600.811,"end":12617.174,"text":"大家現在說的包租代管或者是獨立的整層的住家或者是分租套房、分租雅房甚至是頂樓加蓋的這些型態其實有很多不同的型態它的公共用電的方式也不太一樣所以到底這個電費收取要怎麼樣合法才能夠做出一個"},{"start":12618.054,"end":12644.788,"text":"在合法合規上面其實現在是需要內政部更大力的去做宣傳的要給完整的建議所以我要要求這個包括市長跟司長我覺得我們要定期來檢討這份QA那把大家遇到直接常見的問題都應該列上去其實有一個明確的答案第二個我覺得不能夠只有放在你們的網站上啊年輕人看不到啊你們要不要去利用更多的社群平台去甚至我要說"},{"start":12646.004,"end":12664.312,"text":"你們應該我自己都覺得我們有很多的租屋網站這些租屋網站是不是直接在租屋網站上面就要標明把這訊息不得超收電費那電費該怎麼收清清楚楚的列在上面讓房東跟房客直接就可以知道不一定一定非得透過房客的檢舉才能夠去修改過去錯誤的行為"},{"start":12665.532,"end":12665.652,"text":"市長,有沒有問題?"},{"start":12681.593,"end":12707.101,"text":"沒問題,我們會照委員的建議,那做定期的對QA的修正。那也感謝委員提供一些相關的QA給我們。但我覺得重點是要花力氣、花資源主動宣傳。這是一個好的政策讓大家更多人知道,它可以廣受好評,可是只怕我們的配套不足、宣傳不足。第二個事情,主席再給我一分鐘。我要說在這新的學期裡面,現在新學期快到了。"},{"start":12707.501,"end":12711.823,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12726.4,"end":12738.765,"text":"其實現在很多房東來跟我們反映他們過去確實可能因為過去的習慣或者是過去前人跟他們講的做法不是合法的做法可是他們現在可能也想要改用合法的做法但是他們"},{"start":12739.81,"end":12766.713,"text":"有些來反映他想更知道怎麼這些操作上面的細節。第二個事情是其實確實坦白說很多委員講到租屋黑市的存在是現在很多租客跟房東之間權力不平等的問題這事情當然需要面對可是我覺得在面對的同時幾件事情的做法我覺得至少可以優先先做我們政府不是不了解這個問題但是其實已經推出很多棍子跟胡蘿蔔但是包括房東或者是公益出租人"},{"start":12767.213,"end":12787.099,"text":"其實我覺得我們現在也開始有所謂專案的查核在這個學校周邊想要查八千我們這都有我覺得我們要讓房東很清楚知道第一個如果你要做一個合法的房東其實你可以享有政府多少的優惠如果你要做一個非法的房東或不合規的房東你可能要付出什麼樣的代價其實我覺得這部分"},{"start":12788.12,"end":12809.5,"text":"要擴大的宣傳讓大家知道我們把這個你可以拿到的優惠跟你會受到的懲罰之間這個要讓大家清清楚楚我覺得在大家會慢慢的做行為上面的校正因為有很多的房東他也跟我們說我們並沒有就想要當一個非法的房東可是過去長年以來的習慣是這樣我現在也想改可是我要怎麼改我需要一些政府的幫忙"},{"start":12810.12,"end":12831.534,"text":"這部分我還是要跟內政部說我們還是現在開始說我覺得我們其實陸陸續續推出了蠻多的政策但真的有很多房東跟房客還是不了解這部分宣傳是一件事情但我們現在接下來可能想討論更多規範性的做法我也贊成要有規範性的做法但至少宣傳能夠是起的應該是第一步而且這要花資源宣傳不要把頭埋在沙裡面我覺得這是一個部分市長應該沒問題吧"},{"start":12832.375,"end":12839.7,"text":"沒有問題,我們會照委員的建議,我們加長來處理。好,謝謝。好,非常謝謝洪森漢委員的建議,非常謝謝。謝謝次長,謝謝次長。繼續我們請鄭天才委員質詢。"},{"start":12865.16,"end":12867.405,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請次長。委員好。"},{"start":12875.819,"end":12894.687,"text":"我們看這個是110年的統計數字這個原住民住宅自有率還有租賃的複數我們就以計較在這個都會期都會期就是非原住民族鄉鎮市區住宅自有率65.87%跟這個全國的76.66%這個差距將近10%"},{"start":12903.524,"end":12903.724,"text":"新北市60.85%台北市60.85%"},{"start":12923.431,"end":12949.89,"text":"臺北市只有55.28%臺中市只有55.81%所以這個差距都相當大所以在過去內政部在提出行政院提出住宅法的時候當時我在內政委員會也提出這個住宅法的一個條文所以在住宅法第四條特別明定這個有關"},{"start":12951.242,"end":12966.214,"text":"社會住宅相關需要列入的部分,所以在第九款,原住民也把它列入,列入在優先進駐社會住宅。社會住宅法第五條,也特別規定"},{"start":12971.264,"end":12993.779,"text":"為此,前提國民居住以適宜之住宅,且享有尊嚴之居住環境需要,中央主管機關應橫走未來環境發展住宅市場供需狀況、住宅負擔能力、住宅發展課題及援助民族文化需求等嚴尼住宅政策,報行政案核定。"},{"start":12994.554,"end":13010.166,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之三條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之三條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之三條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等"},{"start":13021.468,"end":13035.628,"text":"所以這個部分就是解決尤其是都會期原住民的住宅自由利非常非常的差百分之十以上所以這樣的一個情形當然"},{"start":13036.604,"end":13052.578,"text":"租宅法第二條,因為它是目的事業主管機關。那我曾經,等一下我也會講,我曾經也質詢過前任的行政院院長,當初還是林佑昌部長。"},{"start":13053.68,"end":13073.219,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":13074.452,"end":13100.215,"text":"這個社會住宅因為內政部有這個新辦社會住宅出租辦法這裡面就是根據當初我們原住民立委在住宅法的時候所提的附帶結議做了一個針對原住民要保障原住民入住社會住宅不得低於原住民族人口數佔全國人口數的比例所以這個部分內政部有把它列進去"},{"start":13101.022,"end":13121.701,"text":"現在就是也要請內政部去督促還有哪些縣市政府他們的社會住宅是不是沒有把這樣的比例列進去這個調查結果再回覆給我好不好好我們看這個在今年3月5號院會總質詢質詢當時的陳建仁院長當時的內政部林右昌部長"},{"start":13126.431,"end":13126.891,"text":"租賃住宅基金"},{"start":13154.794,"end":13176.312,"text":"社會住宅就是根據住宅法﹖所以應該從住宅基金﹖而且曾經內政部也同意用住宅基金﹖這個下次資料給次長﹖所以不能說沒有經費﹖這個是有問題的﹖另外就是說新北市樹林原住民族社會住宅"},{"start":13177.553,"end":13182.617,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":13195.319,"end":13219.936,"text":"好,跟委員報告,您所列的這三個裡面,它基本上臺中跟桃園是因為那個,桃園當然是發飆的問題,然後臺中是因為他們自己不願意辦,那我們會積極跟地方政府協商,請他們跟我們合作,然後趕快來完成。所以這個沒有經費是,這個是錯誤的,好不好?我們有經費,那我們也會盡力完成。好,謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢,謝謝次長、司長,謝謝。繼續我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"},{"start":13231.926,"end":13259.955,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及"},{"start":13260.775,"end":13283.922,"text":"只有證明一件事,就是我們的黑道、黑牆倉爵沒有把內政部、警政署放在眼裡。所以請次長今天回去跟部長說我們的立場。希望內政部要把這件事情當成最重要的事情。是,沒有問題。也跟委員報告,本部一向打擊犯罪不遺餘力。我們也把所有的這些事情當成是本部最重要的業務。他是向政府宣戰。我們一定,我們一定會強力執行。"},{"start":13285.503,"end":13285.663,"text":"我們絕對不手軟,我們會嚴厲執行。"},{"start":13310.176,"end":13335.657,"text":"對這兩天司法新聞因為都被鄭文燦搶走了所以這件事情可能大家沒有那麼關注我希望內政部不能掉以輕心請委員放心我們一定會嚴厲執行第二個部分就是有關租屋市場黑市我其實跟部長跟總執行的時候都提過租屋市場黑市的問題是政府長期的漠視長期以來我們對租屋市場幾乎叫做不管不問好不容易定了住宅法然後定了辦法"},{"start":13336.597,"end":13336.637,"text":"租賃租賃"},{"start":13353.831,"end":13374.676,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":13376.133,"end":13400.888,"text":"這才是今天人民碰到的痛苦所以不要再告訴我說你們做不到這是有法律要執行有稅要查稅現在的問題就是我們很怕房東反彈因為房東的選票也很重要所以大家就是假裝沒看見兩個具體要求第一個租金補貼要實價登錄目前沒有做要不要做"},{"start":13402.23,"end":13429.015,"text":"租賃補貼我們會逐步完成...不要逐步了五十幾萬戶在你手上你可以去識別化、杜斷化把它講清楚這個地方租金多少錢我補貼了它這有什麼難的我們在那個相關的策略上我們會去處理這是第一個這是政府手上有資料都不敢公佈這才是我們的問題我們怕什麼我們會逐步去完成怕房東嗎怕拿到租賃補貼的房東嗎不是吧我們會逐步去完成這件事情第二個"},{"start":13430.334,"end":13454.607,"text":"貸管業者要不要管?要不要讓他公告?貸管業者納進來有沒有問題?不是問題嗎?那天部長有答應我啊。好不好?貸管業者。社宅的貸管業者的部分都已經有實價登錄了。是。仲介業、貸管、包括租業有了。現在租金補貼在你內政部的手上,你就是相關公佈的資料。第三個就是最後貸管業者。"},{"start":13455.467,"end":13455.667,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":13472.833,"end":13473.833,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":13489.76,"end":13516.435,"text":"其實將來我們可能在我們所因為現在的稅都差不多收不到嘛將來在我們所謂的租賃所得收入的時候在財政部提撥一筆錢來鼓勵大家做實價登錄之後能夠得到一些優惠比如說公正費用能夠補助讓房東能夠站出來讓租屋會是能夠曬到陽光我想這個是內政部長期要做弄十年來做看能不能把租屋市場徹底的陽光化"},{"start":13516.755,"end":13546.111,"text":"跟委員報告您的主張跟我們其實是一致的我希望你提出一個時程表漸進式的方式我們來達到這個事情這四年賴政府這四年要做到哪裡未來的八年要做到哪裡我覺得你必須要有一個方向尤其內政部的事務官我相信大家都有這個理想可是不能夠一直假裝沒看見另一個法還告訴人家說我不會查稅這個國家是什麼回事我們正視這個問題也感謝委員的提醒我們正在逐步要推動這件事情"},{"start":13546.331,"end":13550.922,"text":"查稅好像變成政府很羞愧承認的事情,我覺得這件事情很要不得。"},{"start":13553.476,"end":13579.811,"text":"好,非常謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢跟提醒。市長,你一直在講逐步完成,身為一個召委,我覺得你的逐步完成的確是好在虛擬事實。租金補貼已經拿了,剛剛黃珊珊委員所講的非常的正確。所以我認為身為一個負責任的政府,你們不應該用逐步,因為甚至於你告訴我們你們什麼時候可以完成。"},{"start":13580.311,"end":13581.132,"text":"主席董事長"},{"start":13607.512,"end":13627.771,"text":"市長,大家都聽了一個上午,就是剛剛召委所說的逐步逐步,問題是什麼?應該是整個資訊要均衡的一個透明、平等,這個天平才會公平。那你們之所以不願意公開透明,原因是什麼?"},{"start":13628.474,"end":13650.248,"text":"沒有不願意公開透明,我們剛才那個我們市長已經報告了,我們會在6個月內,我們將所有相關內政部所掌握到的資訊,我們用區段透過統計的方式去識別化的方式,那逐步把它完成區段的公布。6個月內,什麼時候起算?因為這個議題大家關心很久了,你的6個月是當時?"},{"start":13653.012,"end":13653.112,"text":"主席"},{"start":13682.796,"end":13684.177,"text":"明年1月以前"},{"start":13707.791,"end":13724.646,"text":"會正式公布?是嗎?來你講清楚好嗎?我們盡量在六個月內來把這些統計的資料分別類的來做公布那所以最慢的時間點就是在明年的一月會正式公布我可以這樣解讀對不對?是"},{"start":13728.669,"end":13749.315,"text":"這個時間點我希望能夠加油因為這個是社會面向大家需要的所以今天在修法的租賃住宅市場發展條例管理條例裡頭第三十四條、三十八條以及三十八條之二特別在三十四條裡頭因為是牛委員以及大家連署的這個"},{"start":13750.495,"end":13766.53,"text":"你們針對於三十四條裡頭所說明的那機關應將前項資訊進行登錄進行登錄跟原先你們的是三十天之內的那你同意嗎?修正條文跟委員報告那個牛委員提案的部分的話就是說"},{"start":13776.014,"end":13778.596,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13798.767,"end":13811.173,"text":"確認我們再來討論細節我也謝謝就支持我們所提案的這個第三十四條、三十八條跟三十八條之二就這個方向怎麼樣去簡化怎麼樣去簡化好終於有一點達成共識那接下來我們討論細節的部分7月15號那電費新資要上任是不是要上路對7月15號"},{"start":13822.498,"end":13822.958,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":13837.947,"end":13862.755,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":13863.915,"end":13865.477,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":13880.794,"end":13881.254,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":13904.326,"end":13905.026,"text":"最後一個議題我給你,也就是自然人憑證"},{"start":13922.256,"end":13935.461,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":13937.814,"end":13958.731,"text":"這個我們會在演繹當中,我們儘量簡化程序。儘量簡化程序,因為到目前為止,你們兩年內是超過45萬人的註冊,但是你累進的有用的是330萬人,可是我們總的這個比例是只有普及率,只有兩成。"},{"start":13960.012,"end":13970.261,"text":"所以你的方式是務必要調整嘛因為你要你一個政策下去要看結果論自然人憑證如果這麼方便還要只有兩層執行到現在兩層就理當去討論我們的政策我們的方式要怎麼樣檢討嘛對不對你們兩個都一直點頭你什麼時候檢討出來"},{"start":13982.56,"end":13985.822,"text":"我們會把相關資料再跟委員報告,我們就順便報告給委員。"},{"start":14015.971,"end":14018.472,"text":"有請董事長有請董事長市長這個住宅產品因為這個供給者跟需求者會因為這個一些住宅政策會有一些調整"},{"start":14033.315,"end":14060.411,"text":"我想說的就是小宅化小宅化就是說這個每一戶成屋的這個坪數啊都大概是20坪到25坪甚至有20坪以下為什麼會造成這種現象為什麼供給者建築投資業者不敢或者不想去興建大坪數因為他有豪宅這個豪宅門檻還有所得的這個限制然後因為房價又那麼高啊"},{"start":14061.288,"end":14084.365,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":14085.146,"end":14110.138,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":14111.51,"end":14128.846,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":14137.042,"end":14158.94,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":14160.9,"end":14179.366,"text":"目前相關的政策我們還是先以設宅的部分為主啦我們希望能夠推動合理的設宅的興建在直接興建的部分透過這樣的方式來平易市場的價格因為事實上小宅的出現也如同委員剛才所指教的他的因為"},{"start":14180.851,"end":14185.714,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14197.608,"end":14222.583,"text":"那這個你這個社會住宅當然是這個坪數空間會大一點但是他有租賃期間的限制嘛所以最多6年嘛如果相關的這個弱勢啊經濟或社會弱勢可以再延長到12年嘛對不對好如果一個年輕夫婦居住他只有6年對不對6年他是不是還要再去找新的家那時候還是一樣買到小坪數的"},{"start":14223.598,"end":14249.686,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":14252.386,"end":14258.359,"text":"那你針對這些這個年輕族群只能讓他6年的期間這個有必要做檢討"},{"start":14260.776,"end":14262.677,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案"},{"start":14288.282,"end":14298.364,"text":"對報委員就是說因為我們現在社會住宅的量還不夠多就將來我們社會住宅累積的量比較多的時候就是說就可以來檢討這個放寬這個12年的讓它變得更長會來研議檢討謝謝那量到什麼時候你才會放寬"},{"start":14304.673,"end":14308.535,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14320.168,"end":14323.392,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14337.929,"end":14358.238,"text":"言的委員除了不在場者之外,其餘的都已經發言完畢,尋答結束。委員高金素美所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。書面質詢還有未及答覆的部分,我們請相關單位在一周之內以書面來答覆,並且複製本會。我們現在先休息五分鐘,繼續處理法案。謝謝。"},{"start":14717.986,"end":14726.794,"text":"好來報告委員會我們現在進行法案的審查請宣讀討論事項所有版本還有條文附帶決議呢我們也請一併宣讀宣讀完畢以後我們進行協商謝謝"},{"start":14729.778,"end":14752.772,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條國民黨黨團提案第二項修正為出租人應於簽訂租賃契約之日起三十日內向池霞市縣市主管機關申報登錄成交案件實際資訊以下簡稱申報登錄資訊但包租業之租賃住宅轉租案件及不動產經紀業居間或代理成交之租賃案件應由該業者申報登錄資訊"},{"start":14754.013,"end":14767.559,"text":"第五項將包租業或賜成租人的文字修正為租賃契約當事人其餘同線型條文。委員牛煦庭等18人提案。第二項修正為直轄市縣市主管機關應將前項資訊進行登錄成交案件實際資訊以下簡稱登錄資訊。"},{"start":14771.781,"end":14793.228,"text":"第五項前段修正為指下市縣市主管機關會查核第一項資訊得向租賃住宅服務業或租賃住宅服務當事人要求查詢取閱有關文件或提出說明其餘同現行條文。第三十八條委員牛煦庭等18人提案刪除第五款後段或提供不實資訊等文字其餘同現行條文。"},{"start":14794.088,"end":14818.445,"text":"第三十八條之二國民黨黨團提案第一項第二項前段修正為出租人包租業及不動產經濟業第三項前段之包租業或賜承租人修正為租賃契約當事人其餘同現行條文委員牛煦庭等18人提案第一項第二項前段修正為租賃住宅服務業依第三十四條第一項規定提供之"},{"start":14819.326,"end":14834.63,"text":"第三項前段之包租業或賜承租人修正為租賃住宅服務業或租賃住宅服務當事人,其餘同現行條文。國民黨黨團提案增訂第38條之三,民眾對租賃申報登錄資訊之有違反法規定情勢者,得續明事實並檢據證據資料向直轄市縣市主管機關檢舉。直轄市縣市主管機關對於前項檢舉,"},{"start":14844.153,"end":14861.881,"text":"警察正屬實並處以罰還者,得以實收罰還總金額收入一定比率,提供檢舉獎金於檢舉人,前向主管機關受理檢舉案件之管轄處理其間保密檢舉人獎金及其他應遵行事項之辦法,由中央主管機關定之。附帶決議111年審計部"},{"start":14870.997,"end":14892.656,"text":"111年審計部決算報告略以由於國內租賃住宅市場以個人出租形態為主,都說房東不願多繳稅,或以自用住宅稅率申報,逃避租屋收入課稅,造成政府對於租賃住宅市場掌握資訊非常有限,而產生租屋黑市或地下化問題,以致中央及地方機關所以積極推動租金補貼等居住協助措施,卻無法確實發揮政策效益。"},{"start":14894.818,"end":14916.582,"text":"就民眾角度而言租屋黑市也嚴重影響其申請租補、攝護及抵稅等合法權益並衍生諸如租住品值安全與糾紛保障等課題。為引導租屋市場透明第一步應先從政府做起。近年來政府已投入數以百億計補貼經費用於租屋市場包括包租代管租金補貼理應掌握"},{"start":14917.402,"end":14941.81,"text":"這些受補住屋標的資訊可透過大數據分析轉化為租屋供給、租屋價格等資訊供民眾參考,並作為政策規劃依據。為促進租屋市場透明,建起內政部於114年1月開始,針對租金補貼資料進行分析,針對不同地區不同屋型租金行情區間分析匯整,並定期公布於內政部網站。提案人委員麥玉珍等四人。"},{"start":14945.913,"end":14961.954,"text":"好,為了使討論聚焦,我們這次的會議就按照委員會編制的條文對照表順序進行逐條討論。然後每條條文如果有委員提案或是修正動議的,我們先分別請委員表示意見後,再由行政單位一併回覆說明。"},{"start":14962.515,"end":14985.69,"text":"目前我們這個委會會議裏面的部分有國民黨團的提案還有牛煦庭委員的提案那麼這個剛剛我們有討論到國民黨的提案就是他們不堅持所以待會討論的時候我們就針對牛煦庭委員的提案來說明來我們來宣告一下第34條大家看一下提案第34條"},{"start":14990.663,"end":14990.783,"text":"行政委員"},{"start":15009.974,"end":15038.156,"text":"好各位委員那針對於牛煦庭委員所提的這個整個修正這裡面的第三十四條這個部分因為整個配套三十四然後還有後面還有三十八之二跟三十八之三我們目前的內政部的立場是是不是這個部分先保留因為這個裡面整個來講的話我們在報告裡面有提到就是說代管企業現在目前的社宅的"},{"start":15039.025,"end":15062.849,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":15068.99,"end":15069.691,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":15082.142,"end":15083.882,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":15104.848,"end":15123.183,"text":"所以這個部分我們的立場是這樣那另外一個就是說剛剛那個資訊來講剛剛也跟牛委員溝通過那個這一部分的資訊事實上資料事實上並不是那麼的多我們也預估一年大概4000多件有這樣一個一般仔的代管企業"},{"start":15124.483,"end":15148.869,"text":"所以是不是這個時候我們一定要去做這樣一個衝擊那我們也建議的就是說那我們剛剛也答應了我們針對於租金補貼的這個資訊我們來分析來做統計分析來做一些去識別化的這些分析然後呢我們也答應在六個月內我們來公佈不同區域的不同"},{"start":15149.389,"end":15149.629,"text":"租賃住宅"},{"start":15164.531,"end":15185.388,"text":"這我們剛剛在答詢的時候其實講得非常清楚居住正義的推動兩個管道第一個是透過社會住宅供給量的增加是社會服務力跟協助弱勢的邏輯第二個是透過其他政策的調整讓市場更加的有秩序這是市場正常化的邏輯我們今天修正的用意跟目標本來就是在推進市場正常化的一個過程"},{"start":15186.128,"end":15203.894,"text":"剛剛在答詢的過程中或者是在內政部說明的過程之中你講非常清楚現有的資訊大部分都是社宅體系的而一般戶的數量大概只有3000戶好那現在我們要更動遊戲規則如果包租貸款業者因為3000戶你就感到很困難你就很崩潰那未來請問變2萬戶3萬戶我們要怎麼修這是個問題吧"},{"start":15208.294,"end":15236.537,"text":"所以本來就是要趁衝擊小的時候現在今天就是衝擊最小的時候因為每一天的數量都會增加對不對這是政策上的一個方向的確定那難道你政府今天要反對唯一的理由就是你根本不想做嗎難道不是這樣嗎你怎麼樣兼顧在衝擊不變的情況之下你能夠推進這樣政策的措施就變成打死結了嘛你一定是趁衝擊相對小的時候先把規則搞清楚這是我要講第一個這是大的方向第二個我要講細節"},{"start":15237.981,"end":15263.844,"text":"你知道我們的租賃市場發展及管理條例應該不是一部法走全部吧應該有授權條款對不對裡面的這個第七項就有寫第一項的資訊類別內容提供方式經因遵行事項由中央主管定制嘛對不對所以其實你是有執法的嘛而且不只是規定嘛你還有執法租賃住宅服務業資訊提供辦法就有一套做法嘛那你們有沒有看過裡面的內容"},{"start":15264.778,"end":15267.594,"text":"有啊當然那個是我們定的這個執法啦"},{"start":15268.342,"end":15294.152,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":15298.376,"end":15323.663,"text":"對不對所以說不管從方向上或是從細節上來講我們修法有絕對的正當性嘛你本來就該做的事情我們只是法文明文那法文明文也是在一個衝擊相對小的這樣一個時機來做所以我們就講嘛今天如果有辦法用比較溫和的方式也就是說包租貸款這部分先達成共識今天就來處理政府也得分我們執政黨委員也得分我們在黨委員也得分大家一起共同推動民生法案我想這是大家都可以接受的結果"},{"start":15324.431,"end":15346.151,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":15347.623,"end":15361.795,"text":"那我們如何對支持這件事情的選民交代對不對所以我今天不修法我之後再來你剛剛講之後再來我會把話一路潑到底了來112年你們的新聞稿自己唸一下啦我唸給你們聽啦免得叫你們找很麻煩"},{"start":15363.613,"end":15387.515,"text":"內政部112年8月5號新聞稿有效率推動租屋市場透明化。內政部強調為加強透明化、修正租賃條例,後續亦將強化租賃資訊整合分析,進一步提升租賃市場透明度。快一年了,有進度嗎?沒有嘛。你看我們今天不要求修法,不做這些事情,你會主動做嗎?大概不會嘛。"},{"start":15388.41,"end":15417.182,"text":"對不對所以我覺得有些時候就是該走該往前走就要走步子可以不用走那麼大步但你總要前進現在社會大眾特別是年輕年輕世代的族群不是弱勢戶而已一般租不起房子的人或者是租房遇到很多障礙困難的人都需要這個市場這個包租貸款業界遊戲規則趕快確認然後趕快對一般大眾有利這個是對大家有利的事情希望內政部可以秉於這樣子的推動居住正義的精神今天我們就達成共識以上"},{"start":15418.496,"end":15434.455,"text":"非常謝謝牛煦庭委員非常清楚明白的也甚至於拿出這個條文還有你們自己內政部裡面的新聞稿說了剛剛我記得在不管是黃珊珊委員的質詢或者是楊瓊瑩委員的質詢針對這個部分內政部也都說"},{"start":15437.899,"end":15439.52,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15459.197,"end":15477.271,"text":"我來簡單說明一下剛牛委員提到說我們有一個租賃住宅一個資訊的一個提供辦法裡面那我們那個提供辦法裡面事實上是有要業者來提供這些資訊但是我跟委員報告這個是業者提供給直轄市縣市政府"},{"start":15477.751,"end":15477.931,"text":"租賃住宅"},{"start":15493.662,"end":15497.483,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":15519.83,"end":15521.051,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":15540.62,"end":15556.974,"text":"包租貸款,還有中階的實價登錄租金資料,以及租金補貼,事實上它裡面的內容格式並不一致。我們要做這個,我們也在做了,不是之前沒有做。我們現在請博弈委員來說明。"},{"start":15563.289,"end":15590.071,"text":"謝謝齁,那個,呃,謝謝召委,那,呃,牛委員提這個案齁,其實我也覺得利益良善,剛剛我在那個質詢的時候就有講了,但是我們要達到整個租賃市場透明的這個過程裡面,我現在看到內政部拿出來的都是蘿蔔啦,都在想,都在,呃,都在增加誘因,讓這一些可能是空屋的房東們,"},{"start":15592.072,"end":15617.059,"text":"願意自己拿出來做公益出租人或者是願意把房子委託給包租代管的業者。那中間現在我們現在重點在這這個三十四條可能這就是在討論房東拿出來給包租代管業者的意願還有包租代管業者未來可以為台灣社會做到多少這一方面的業務的這個過程嗎?"},{"start":15619.38,"end":15631.297,"text":"那如果說內政部認為我們在這6個月我們即將要用比如說區域性那去來做這個公告這個過程會比現在馬上來做這個修法"},{"start":15634.83,"end":15654.831,"text":"還要讓房東更願意把這些房屋拿出來給包租代管業者我希望內政部再說更明確一點的說明跟例子比如說啦目前包租代管的業者他們遇到什麼樣的困難就你剛講的嘛我一開始也還聽不太懂那後來我聽懂了就是"},{"start":15655.765,"end":15674.677,"text":"他只負責管理這個管理這個他的房子但是租金的這個租金的部分是房東跟這個租客他們他們直接的業務那如果讓包租代管業者也來公佈這個實價登錄也來公佈這些資訊的話會造成"},{"start":15679.68,"end":15700.015,"text":"其他房東的意願等等的我覺得這個部分你要講清楚那才可以說服在場所有的委員們大家都希望朝向讓來租屋的人他有更多的資訊或者是有更平易的房子來可以來承租請次長跟次長來做這一方面的說明謝謝"},{"start":15700.835,"end":15726.187,"text":"我想次長跟司長剛剛不管在答詢的部分或者是給你時間回答都已經回答清楚了我希望博弈委員清楚知道剛剛牛煦庭委員堅持的部分他說其實現在這個部分正義點大概只有3千戶我們知道的資料那萬一以後這些部分沒有他會更大他的數據會更大所以你現在不處理的話不是處理我希望講清楚"},{"start":15727.008,"end":15734.007,"text":"他剛剛已經講了其實呢代管啊不出資料其實或者是房東不願意這個其實他其實就有三千戶而已是增加什麼問題"},{"start":15736.944,"end":15761.744,"text":"應該說市場上有三千戶是一般戶來做貸款。對,一般戶的嘛。對不對?所以按照總體報酬代表是十萬戶。大部分都還是走社會住宅這個邏輯嘛。對。對不對?但表示一般戶的數量不夠。那政策問題就是一般戶的政策又應該要不要提升嘛。阿第二個是趁衝擊還小的時候先建立好的完整的遊戲規則。免得你到最後從三千戶變成五千戶變八千戶。你三千戶都說很難了。那五千戶八千戶會不會更難?一萬戶兩萬戶會不會更難?"},{"start":15764.977,"end":15788.534,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":15794.679,"end":15804.316,"text":"審報登錄資訊其實反而很多業者會覺得這次多一道手續很麻煩我已經面對房東房客我要協助包租也好或協助代管也已經很麻煩了對不對 然後我還要"},{"start":15805.307,"end":15824.444,"text":"我還要自己想辦法去跟政府去做申報其實多行政程序那我們就修正你只要提供資訊就好而不用親自走那個申報流程你提供相關資訊讓政府平台來做申報這樣子政府機關也可以快速掌握所有的數字未來你才有辦法有效推動居住正義的政策所以這其實也是降低業者的工作難度跟負擔"},{"start":15825.684,"end":15849.558,"text":"所以這修法的時候並不是沒有幫業者考慮啦。好,非常謝謝牛秦庭委員補充說明。剛剛其實博弈委員也請內政部,你們不要一直停留在你們的說明都是一個說法。剛剛博弈委員也說,麻煩你們也把你們的蘿蔔拿出來,你現在是不是可以把蘿蔔拿出來再講清楚你們未來要怎麼做?是的,謝謝。剛剛講的部分就不要再持續講,不要像鸚鵡一樣好嗎?謝謝。"},{"start":15850.834,"end":15879.645,"text":"所以說一般宅的這個政策誘因我們事實上在訂租賃條例的時候那時候就有訂了我們也不分什麼一般宅社宅的這個包租貸款它事實上都有誘因包括所得稅包括房屋稅以及地價稅這個事實上也有提供誘因但因為社宅的誘因當然是比較多因為它是幫助經濟弱勢所以目前的整個那個社宅的量在包租貸款裡面的時候是大多數"},{"start":15880.445,"end":15880.865,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":15897.574,"end":15916.044,"text":"你如果現在都提不出來的話,你如何說服我們,然後這個這個不支持牛煦庭委員的這個提案呢?沒有,我說不支持,多想想,多想想,會不會造成什麼樣的困難呢?對,現在你就講清楚,困難就是我剛剛提到的,會多支出預算是嗎?這個就是變成"},{"start":15922.074,"end":15943.118,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":15951.139,"end":15973.998,"text":"有什麼意見嗎?如果沒有意見的話,我們在文字上做修訂,現在停止討論,我們來討論一下,因為它是連帶的,第三十四條、第三十八條及三十八條之二,三十四條如果沒有訂的話,下面很難。好,謝謝。對,接著下來,第五款那個都下不去。對,了解了。來,討論一下。"},{"start":15982.416,"end":15985.516,"text":"你總共幾家業者?"},{"start":16007.443,"end":16017.11,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16031.901,"end":16034.822,"text":"財管界的做不到的決定"},{"start":16061.254,"end":16061.534,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":16102.643,"end":16105.385,"text":"最主要是你有寫到發的那個啊,人家如果真的"},{"start":16107.859,"end":16131.905,"text":"問題是在這裏,就是說,如果你現在這樣就可以開始發的時候,未來的包圖災難更不會變少。你都沒出嘛!你都沒出嘛!如果是這樣子的邏輯,應該是現在很多改革還沒有發生。現在還很少。現在還很少。現在不用公開啊,不用公開。"},{"start":16137.067,"end":16137.548,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":16153.187,"end":16173.941,"text":"委員不是這樣我們的立場應該是這樣但是我要跟委員報告就是說當我們強制立法之後我們馬上會面臨的現況就是說第一個業者本身因為要罰要他可能退出這個市場這是最大的壓力第二個是房東就會消失了"},{"start":16174.934,"end":16175.134,"text":"租賃租賃"},{"start":16200.263,"end":16201.563,"text":"施行的日期可以"},{"start":16228.848,"end":16256.954,"text":"討論。"},{"start":16260.772,"end":16270.335,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案。"},{"start":16287.84,"end":16314.866,"text":"你所授權的執行執行都不用舉法,你怎麼會需要在民法裡面講呢?對不對?民法定律是標誌的。但你在執行,你在查核。剛剛包含大家關係,總會馬上裁罰你。對不對?你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際上身後的進度,你實際"},{"start":16315.509,"end":16317.21,"text":"都不好啊啦,都不好。"},{"start":16338.53,"end":16357.419,"text":"他們同意我們沒有意見,他們可以做就好。現在大家的爭議,本來他們就要做,只是說大家的想法都可以給年輕人,"},{"start":16363.737,"end":16390.569,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":16392.329,"end":16417.297,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":16419.778,"end":16432.083,"text":"一般戶的數量,一般戶的數量已經是五萬八萬,然後你擔心他會從下回升。那我早一點把規則明確化比較好。你如果沒有增加政策,政策的優惠增加嗎?"},{"start":16439.989,"end":16441.37,"text":"可是你又因剛開始"},{"start":16459.38,"end":16487.891,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":16488.911,"end":16496.834,"text":"房東也都已經拿到了房東也都已經拿到了房東也都已經拿到了房東也都已經拿到了房東也都已經拿到了房東也都已經拿到了"},{"start":16516.102,"end":16516.683,"text":"租賃租賃租賃"},{"start":16535.867,"end":16550.283,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":16550.964,"end":16579.032,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":16579.712,"end":16585.898,"text":"市場會否不成熟?市場會否不成熟?市場會否不成熟?市場會否不成熟?"},{"start":16605.514,"end":16630.171,"text":"我們現在的狀況我們現在的狀況就是大家不是不是不是這個就跟我們在買東西是一樣的是一步一步的往前走你一下子要全部都要怎麼樣的時候那個還沒有進入市場的人他就會恐懼所以我們才會說讓我們把市場做大大家熟悉了"},{"start":16630.911,"end":16634.634,"text":"好,那我們就可以往下走,這樣子。需要,拜託你溝通。要保留。希望保留。"},{"start":16657.598,"end":16662.363,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16673.913,"end":16674.654,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":16703.773,"end":16707.978,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":16725.812,"end":16754.641,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":16754.901,"end":16755.301,"text":"負債決議第二課"},{"start":16779.889,"end":16807.488,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及"},{"start":16811.305,"end":16833.597,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":16834.678,"end":16861.3,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":16862.823,"end":16863.584,"text":"租賃租賃租賃"},{"start":16879.575,"end":16883.697,"text":"加入那個文字那個文字那個文字那個文字那個文字那個文字那個文字"},{"start":16907.85,"end":16927.243,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":16927.843,"end":16954.614,"text":"一、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":16955.274,"end":16955.394,"text":"主席"},{"start":16963.988,"end":16991.551,"text":"好,我們現在還有另外一個附帶決議,然後我們現在請議事人員來宣讀。附帶決議二,請內政部於六個月內研議相關政策優惠及便民措施,建議增加房屋所有權人加入非屬社會住宅形式之一般包租代管體系之意願,並扶植租賃住宅服務業,並提升居住品質及健全租賃住宅市場。提案人委員牛煦庭等7人,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":16994.855,"end":16998.277,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17018.578,"end":17043.35,"text":"好 謝謝大家 大家都辛苦了 現在已經是1點14分我們的列席官員也都沒有用餐為了體恤大家 我們現在趕快來宣布一下經剛剛各黨團協商的結果 我在這邊宣告第34條、第38條、第38條之二以及增訂第38條之三的條文 我們通通保留協商並且通過兩項附帶決議 請問有無異議"},{"start":17047.705,"end":17047.965,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":17078.266,"end":17099.809,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":17100.169,"end":17100.189,"text":"都會"},{"start":17121.049,"end":17138.017,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":17142.688,"end":17161.768,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":17178.647,"end":17195.688,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十八條之二及三十"},{"start":17196.189,"end":17214.997,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"}]}},{"id":"16091","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16091","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbc95e053c453ffb76da8636340bb32aa828aaa308df9ea37378eee20e02d090d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：依據修正後「立法院職權行使法部分條文」相關規定：討論成立本會「有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組」及「運作要點草案」等相關事宜。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-11","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-11T08:31:10+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T10:26:00+08:00","duration":6890,"影片長度":"01:54:50","委員發言時間":"08:31:10 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謝謝我們請主秘報告初期人數報告全體會初期委員10人已足法定人數好 我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄請宣讀"},{"start":1760.814,"end":1786.125,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議一四路時間113年7月8日星期一九十一分至十二時五十八分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員邱毅英委員的13人列席委員羅明才委員等3人列席人員農業部長陳俊記考選部內政部教育部衛福部法務部工程會各單位代表及其相關人員"},{"start":1787.205,"end":1816.164,"text":"主席楊昭吉委員瓊瑛報告事項宣讀第17次及第18次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項一繼續審查一委員陳樹岳等人擬拒職務診療施法草案案二委員邱益穎等人擬拒職務診療施法草案案三委員楊瓊瑛等人擬拒職務診療施法草案案二審查一行政院韓勤審議職務診療施法草案案二委員羅廷偉等人擬拒職務診療施法草案案"},{"start":1816.944,"end":1834.954,"text":"決議一 法案名稱及第一章張明君照案通過二 第一條條文照行政院提案及委員羅廷偉等人提案通過三 第二條條文照案通過四 第三條條文修正通過除三除具中一本法等文字外 其餘照行政院提案通過"},{"start":1836.174,"end":1855.115,"text":"5.第4條條文照行政院提案與提案內容相同之各委員提案及委員賴內容等人所提修正動議通過6.第5條條文修正通過除第1項第一款墨具修正為經撤銷職務診療師考試及格資格尚未屆滿3年及第二款手具"},{"start":1856.076,"end":1884.346,"text":"修正為因執行職務、診療業務上有關之故意犯罪行為外其造行政院提案通過。7.第6條條文造行政院提案內容相同之委員羅廷輝等人提案及委員賴日榮等人修正動議通過。8.第2張張明照案通過。9.第7條條文造行政院提案通過。10.第8條條文造行政院提案內容與各委員提案及委員賴日榮等人"},{"start":1885.635,"end":1895.955,"text":"修正動議通過 十一第九條條文修正通過 處第三劇中修正為應預定期間完成繼續教育並取得積分外 取一照行政院提案通過"},{"start":1898.163,"end":1924.102,"text":"十二 第十條條文照行政院提案內容相同之各委員提案及委員賴銳榮等人修正同意通過十三 第十一條條文照行政院提案與提案內容相同之委員羅廷維等人提案及委員賴銳榮等人修正同意通過十四 第十二條條文照行政院提案與提案內容相同之各委員提案及委員賴銳榮等人修正同意通過十五 第十三條條文照行政院提案"},{"start":1925.834,"end":1944.031,"text":"與提案內容相同之委員補聽委等人提案與委員賴瑞榮等人修正動議通過。16 條條文照行政院與提案內容相同之各委員提案通過。17 條條文照案通過。18 條條文照行政院提案與提案內容相同之各委員提案與委員賴瑞榮等人修正動議通過。"},{"start":1946.394,"end":1948.296,"text":"19.第17條條文照案通過20."},{"start":1948.296,"end":1956.126,"text":"第18條條文照行政院提案與提案內容相同之委員或聽委等人提案與委內內容等人修正通過21."},{"start":1956.126,"end":1958.949,"text":"第三章張明照案通過22."},{"start":1958.949,"end":1961.733,"text":"第19條至第21條條文均照行政院提案"},{"start":1962.934,"end":1981.029,"text":"與內容相同之各委員提案及委員賴日榮等人修正動議通過。23.第22條及第3條條文遵照行政提案內容相同之委員羅廷偉等人提案與委員賴日榮等人修正動議通過。24.第24條條文遵照行政與提案內容相同之各委員提案及委員賴日榮"},{"start":1981.93,"end":2004.361,"text":"等人修正動議通過。ﷺ第25條條文造行政院提案通過。ﷺ第26條條文造案通過。ﷺ第27條條文造行政院與提案內容相同之委員羅廷偉等人提案。ﷺ結尾賴岳榮等人修正動議通過。ﷺ第28第4張張明造案通過。ﷺ第29第28條至第31條條文軍造行政院與提案內容相同之羅廷偉"},{"start":2005.021,"end":2008.424,"text":"等人提案及委員賴日榮等人修正動議通過。30."},{"start":2008.424,"end":2012.767,"text":"第32條條文照行政院及委員羅天惟等人提案通過。31."},{"start":2012.767,"end":2017.491,"text":"委員陳淑月等人第32條條文不予通過。32."},{"start":2017.491,"end":2020.353,"text":"第33條條文照行政院提案通過。33."},{"start":2020.353,"end":2025.657,"text":"第34條條文照行政院提案及委員羅天惟等人提案通過。34."},{"start":2025.657,"end":2032.543,"text":"第35條及第36條條文均照行政院與提案內容相同是各委員提案及委員賴日榮等人修正動議通過。"},{"start":2034.064,"end":2058.807,"text":"35.第5章張明照案通過36.第37條條文修正通過除第1項第2款修正為全國植物診療施工會聯合會外其餘造型論提案通過37.第38條條文照案通過38.第39條條文修正通過除第2項及第3項修正為全國植物診療施工會等人質均修正為全國植物診療施工會聯合會外"},{"start":2059.728,"end":2077.078,"text":"取依照行政院提案通過。319第40條條文修正通過,除首句、句中、職業、團體等文字,修正為社會行政外。取依照行政院提案通過。40第41條條文修正通過,除第1項、第2款,修正為全國植物診療師公會員合會及第2項首句。"},{"start":2077.958,"end":2090.577,"text":"修正為前項理事兼市民而在三人以上時外其餘照行政院提案通過第42條條文修正通過除聚中職業團體等文字修正為社會行政外其餘照行政院提案通過第43條條文"},{"start":2094.017,"end":2117.31,"text":"趙行政院及委員 羅廷偉等人提案通過第43第44條條文修正通過除序文職業團體修正為社會行政外局 趙行政院提案通過第44第45條條文修正通過除第一項默劇職業團體修正為社會行政及第二項修正為前項處分必要時得由主管及官委之外 趙行政院提案通過第45第46條條文修正通過除默劇"},{"start":2121.092,"end":2139.289,"text":"職業團體修正委社會行政外局造行政院提案通過46.第6商章營造案通過47.第47條條文造行政院提案與委員提案內容相同之各委員提案通過48.第48條文造行政院提案內容相同之各委員提案及委內容等人修正動議通過49.第49條"},{"start":2141.511,"end":2159.642,"text":"至第51條條文均照案通過﹐50通過附帶決議﹐向51併案審查文具理據審查報告提報院會討論﹐不須交給黨團學商﹐並推行讓召集委員求運院會討論時﹐作補充說明﹐主席宣告通過這條文相關法制用與授權主席及議事人員整理﹐散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":2164.824,"end":2187.775,"text":"好 請問各位同仁上次的會議意思錄有無異議沒有錯 我們意思錄確認現在進行討論事項請宣讀依據修正後《立法院職權行使法部分條文》相關規定．討論成立本會有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組及運作要點草案等相關事宜。宣讀完畢好"},{"start":2193.086,"end":2214.563,"text":"本例已曾排定依據修正《立法院職權行使法部分條文》相關規定．討論成立本委員會有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組以及運作要點草案等相關事宜。．我們現在進行發言請委員自主席台登記"},{"start":2220.404,"end":2225.869,"text":"登記後依序發言主席台並作以下的宣告每位委員發言的時間3分鐘"},{"start":2251.004,"end":2254.957,"text":"好我們現在請第一位登記發言的陳廷飛委員請做發言"},{"start":2273.352,"end":2288.725,"text":"謝謝主席我覺得今天我們在昨天憲法法庭在處理緊急處分的整個過程然後全國都在看這樣的直播然後今天我們經濟委員會"},{"start":2290.886,"end":2307.312,"text":"來召開這樣的一個所謂要成立調查專案小組還有運作要點草案的相關事宜我覺得有點奇怪而且時間有點讓大家有點質疑因為為什麼這麼說光為什麼我們要做緊急處分"},{"start":2311.874,"end":2331.96,"text":"大家知道我們光在調查權的問題到底監察院的調查權還有檢調的調查權還有立法院的調查權這三個範圍到底要怎麼界定到底要怎麼去執行各個區別而不要有跌床架屋"},{"start":2332.58,"end":2360.916,"text":"大家都還在討論當中而且在事先當中甚至是為什麼要做緊急處分也就是在整個都未釐清之前我們如果讓這樣的一個未經過充分討論的條文上路那麼就會讓整個執行行政的部門完全無法去了解他們的定奪跟定調那麼今天更好笑的是"},{"start":2361.957,"end":2384.973,"text":"我們除了我們在釋憲是不是有違憲的部分甚至我們現在又在處理一個我們自己對於這個條文都已經在違規的狀況這個條文都還在做緊急處分然後呢我們就自己在針對條文裡面的內容在做愉悅的動作"},{"start":2386.226,"end":2410.046,"text":"大家有看到《立法院職權行使法》這個是我們認為要釋憲的這個條文這個條文的部分裡面所寫的有一個裁判確定前之訴訟案件就其偵查或審判所為的處置及其卷證立法院不得行使調查權"},{"start":2411.167,"end":2438.278,"text":"有沒有看得非常的清楚在立法院職權行使法也就是我們認為違憲的這個職權行使法第46條之二這裡面就已經給你寫得很清楚了裁判確定前之訴訟案件就其偵查或審判所為之處置及其卷證立法院不得行使調查權那麼"},{"start":2441.38,"end":2465.153,"text":"對於一個我們認為違憲的條文國民黨自己所提出的現在還在違規違法這是不是很離譜然後什麼叫確立檢訴訟案件即其偵查或審判剛剛好這個案子臺北地檢署他們自己的新聞稿說"},{"start":2466.826,"end":2494.272,"text":"他們這個案子9個月都在進行當中我們也去調所有的資料了解說到底這個案子有哪幾個單位在查我們知道的臺北地檢署也在做了而且是112年5月就在動作了臺北調查處、高雄地檢署、彰化地檢署、台中地檢署也都已經在動作了因為他們也都對外"},{"start":2494.992,"end":2521.135,"text":"有作帳的一個宣誓然後呢除了農業部續產會都有在被調查當中農業部在今年6月7號也自行移送臺北地檢署調查然後監察院也在112年9月也開始進行調查我覺得國民黨在你們的所有新聞資料裡面掉一掉都看得到啦"},{"start":2522.128,"end":2543.939,"text":"都已經有檢調調查都已經有監察院調查了我們今天要怎麼去成立這一個所謂的專案小組調查專案小組還要去給人家成立所謂的運作要點草案有沒有看清楚看清楚啦各位民眾委員會的條文裡面已經自己在違規違法啦"},{"start":2546.56,"end":2560.929,"text":"這到底在做什麼?立法院難道都沒有一定的標準嗎?還是國民黨現在要成立什麼調查會就可以成立什麼調查會?要成立什麼專案小組就可以成立什麼專案小組嗎?所以我們請"},{"start":2562.39,"end":2584.286,"text":"國民黨委員看清楚《立法院職權行使法》第46條之二裁判決定前之訴訟案件就其偵查或審判所為之處置及其卷證立法院不得行使調查權很清楚謝謝接下來我們請邱映委員請做發言"},{"start":2591.65,"end":2615.504,"text":"好謝謝主席主席既然現在是程序發言我可不可以請教一下今天的討論事項的文字依據修正後立法院職權行使法部分條文相關規定請問主席您今天排定的議程是依據立法院職權行使法哪一條條文來排定主席"},{"start":2616.653,"end":2626.035,"text":"主席請不要滑手機好不好請發言現在是發言請發言可以現在發言你你一併發言完要程序我們依照依法來組織議事現在是請各位委員請發言一個人3分鐘因為我們後面還有委員我們後面還有委員經濟委員會都是最"},{"start":2645.781,"end":2646.202,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2649.849,"end":2673.113,"text":"好 現在是每一個委員發言3分鐘好啦 主席 我知道你不敢回答如果依照剛剛我走過來的時候張祺凱委員很清楚地講這個條文已經在立法院通過了所以就可以開始實行如果是照你們剛剛這樣講的話那你就是依照立法院職權行使法第46條之2開始來排定這個議程嘛 對不對"},{"start":2676.454,"end":2683.12,"text":"你不敢回答我我可以很清楚告訴你依照立法院職權行使法第46條之二這個裡頭很清楚寫到這個是你們國民黨跟民眾黨委員通過的條文很清楚寫裁判確定前之訴訟案件就其偵查或審判所為之處置及其卷證立法院不得行使調查權"},{"start":2705.638,"end":2722.614,"text":"這是其一其二調查委員會成立之後其他依法應獨立行使職權的機關亦本於職權進行處理相關案件調查委員會得停止調查換句話說"},{"start":2724.775,"end":2750.665,"text":"換句話說這個所謂你們要查的超私的案子112年5月檢調已經開始在進行調查檢調依他們的職權甚至監察院也依他們的職權在進行調查就國眾兩黨通過的立法院職權行使法第46條之二"},{"start":2753.318,"end":2765.616,"text":"現在立法院是不應該也不能夠成立調查委員會即使你成立了之後你必須要停止調查這是依照"},{"start":2767.948,"end":2790.883,"text":"國民黨民眾黨通過的所謂的立法委員職權行使法所以我剛剛才會請教主席你是依照哪一條法令來排定今天的報告案今天的成立調查委員會的案子第一你不敢回答我第二如果依照你們通過的這個版本"},{"start":2791.804,"end":2812.152,"text":"依照你通過的這個版本我先不談它有沒有違憲你們通過了這個版本在調查當中的案子檢調在調查當中的案子立法院不得越卷不得調查即使在這個之前成立的委員會在調查當中的案子我們也要停止調查權結果法是你們過的現在要帶頭違法也是你們太好笑了吧"},{"start":2821.857,"end":2832.302,"text":"主席啊回去墊高枕頭想一想啊要擴權的也是你們說要行使調查權也是你們通過這個法以後首先要帶頭違法的也是你們滑天下之大雞啊真的滑天下之大雞啊你們昨天被大法官打臉臉還不夠腫嗎還不夠腫嗎你們今天真的還要這樣子違法硬幹懸崖勒馬吧"},{"start":2852.804,"end":2854.207,"text":"謝謝 我們接下來請賴瑞榮委員請做發言"},{"start":2863.438,"end":2884.411,"text":"主席各位我想立法院立法委員即使在行使職權也不能夠違法那我們還是要呼籲今天這樣的一個如果要通過這樣的一個專案小組事實上是違法的我們還是要提醒立法院其實作為立法者更應該遵守法律更應該來依照法律來行事那我提一下有四點的一個建議第一個"},{"start":2885.131,"end":2909.509,"text":"昨天大家也看到了這個國會的立法院的職權行使法已經提出釋憲昨天大法官也開始在做處理了那事實上大家有談到緊急處分的部分這個也就是大家擔心說這個過程中的時候可能會對於既有的一些包括行政權包括司法權產生一些侵犯上的問題所以大家有這樣的一個要求昨天也非常的清楚大法官有非常多的一些擔憂"},{"start":2910.47,"end":2930.255,"text":"那這個時間點再來排這樣的一個調查專案調查的部分有可能會侵犯到了這個司法的部分我們認為其實並不恰當我認為其實在台灣狀況下司法尊重司法是大家基本上的一個要求那既然這樣狀況下我認為今天立法院至少在這樣狀況下應該尊重整個"},{"start":2932.215,"end":2949.424,"text":"大法官釋憲最後的結果再來做處理我認為是比較恰當的如果這時候強行來通過的話我認為其實這個將來一樣是有違憲的疑慮我認為立法者不應該帶頭來違法違憲這是我第一個主張第二個是這個在這件案件其實在112年的5月"},{"start":2952.327,"end":2971.241,"text":"法務部這個地檢署就已經在查了包括臺北、彰化、高雄、台中都有在查了也都有在調查了那這個在進行當中包括在今年的6月7號因為大家的質疑所以農業部也已經移送把整個案件全部移送去做調查"},{"start":2972.162,"end":2997.375,"text":"那我認為其實這件事情司法已經在進行相關的調查當中了我們認為應該尊重司法的調查立法院這時候再去成立一個這個專案的小組來干涉到司法甚至影響到司法我認為這個並不恰當特別是在大法官的釋字第729號裡面有談到偵查中的案件立法院不得調閱"},{"start":2998.556,"end":3025.859,"text":"那這個部分大法官已經非常清楚的一個明示了在調查中的案件立法院不得調閱4至729號我認為其實立法院再怎麼樣大都不應該超越到憲法超越到法律的一個規定所以今天如果要再成立這樣一個調查小組事實上是侵犯到司法權大法官4至729號你再次的清楚這個偵查中的案件立法院不得調閱"},{"start":3028.327,"end":3046.676,"text":"這個從去年的5月司法院地檢署就已經在偵辦當中了偵查當中包括今年的6月7號農業部已經再次的送給這個法務部地檢署這邊在做相關的偵辦了我們認為應該尊重這個偵辦同時也尊重大法官釋字這樣的一個解釋"},{"start":3047.737,"end":3066.976,"text":"那再來是剛剛大家也都提到了齁即使是不論事件結果最後怎麼樣子事件當中不論結果最後怎麼樣的狀況下當時在藍白多數下通過的立法院職權行使法第46條之二都提到了採辦確定前之訴訟案件就其偵查或審判"},{"start":3067.857,"end":3094.791,"text":"所謂是處置及卷證立法院不得行使調查權立法院不得行使調查權立法院不得行使調查權很重要講三次藍白自己通過的法如果連你自己都能夠違法的話那人民怎麼能相信立法院怎麼能夠相信這個立法呢人民又怎麼樣遵從這樣的法律的規定所以我們認為今天要來成立這個專案小組是違法違憲的我們呼籲立法者"},{"start":3095.592,"end":3106.292,"text":"應該尊重人民尊重國家尊重制度不應該通過這樣的一個專案小組好謝謝好謝謝我們接下來請邱志維委員請做發言"},{"start":3121.826,"end":3123.467,"text":"委員發言 登記發言 你是登記第4位"},{"start":3135.473,"end":3136.073,"text":"為什麼本席在這邊"},{"start":3164.059,"end":3181.355,"text":"告訴大家 成立這個專案小組基本上是一個違法成立很明顯的幾個大法官事線第585跟729對偵查中的相關的卷證 立法院不得調閱這樣違憲不?"},{"start":3184.144,"end":3212.002,"text":"李偉憲吳維懷某當然違法按照剛通過在藍白兩黨合力之下通過的毀憲亂政的立法委員職權行使法部分條文第46條之二的規定偵查中的卷證立法院不得行使調查權這個案子有沒有在行使調查有沒有在偵查有啊"},{"start":3213.474,"end":3227.962,"text":"幾個地檢署都在偵查 調查局也在偵查所以這很明顯是屬於偵查中的卷證立法院不得行使調查權你今天要成立這個專案小組你要行使調查權 是不是就違法違憲一個違法違憲的這個調查小組我們市立法院 各位 諸公 都是立法者"},{"start":3240.39,"end":3262.955,"text":"立法者不能拜託違法而且46字案是你們主導事項所通過的然後你們是拜託違法如果你今天成立所謂這個立法院經濟委員會違法成立這個進口雞蛋調查專案小組本席也要成立一個針對立法院經濟委員會"},{"start":3265.679,"end":3287.05,"text":"違法成立進口雞蛋成立調查專案小組,我要成立這個調查專案小組。我成立,針對你今天成立這個違法的調查小組,我要成立這個調查小組,要調查你。楊瓊英主席召開成立這個調查,如果今天你強行要成立這個調查小組,一個違憲違法的這個調查小組,"},{"start":3292.185,"end":3315.933,"text":"那我要立刻成立一個調查小組,針對你這個違法的這個成立我組成一個專案小組我如果成立這個小組,我反而是合憲合法因為他不是偵查中,也不是調查中我可以把你相關的決議可以調出來,也可以把你楊求英主席也可以調你來問,提供相關的卷證"},{"start":3317.884,"end":3341.759,"text":"所以一個明顯違法違憲為什麼這個基本上普羅大東都可以了解這個違法違憲的這個小組竟然能夠提上議程來討論匪夷所思華天下之大雞啊立法院難怪這個被全國人民所憂慮跟詬病為什麼這個"},{"start":3343.577,"end":3371.324,"text":"這一屆成立到現在全國老百姓最擔憂的就是立法院相關的運作相關的立法成立那麼多毀憲亂政的這個通過那麼多毀憲亂政的法案成立那麼多毀憲亂政的小組來破壞這個行政立法或者調查監察的這個分際把所有的權力獨攬到立法院"},{"start":3372.674,"end":3374.294,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員請做巡檔"},{"start":3421.575,"end":3440.324,"text":"謝謝主席主席我們今天基於立法院職權行使法然後說要來成立這個雞蛋的一個調查小組但是就我們很清楚的知道在112年的5月那至少有臺北地檢"},{"start":3441.701,"end":3469.113,"text":"高雄地檢、彰化地檢、台中地檢都有來開始在調查所謂雞蛋的一個狀況所以這件事情檢調就代表國家的檢查機關都已經發動那至少農委會就農業部在今年6月的時候也有主動把本案相關的卷證都已經移送給臺北地檢署"},{"start":3470.29,"end":3485.006,"text":"所以很清楚的這個案件現在是在法務部這個檢查機關他是一個憲法賦予他獨立行使職權行使國家賦予他的偵查犯罪的偵查權"},{"start":3487.355,"end":3510.884,"text":"所以你這樣說起來：大法官4至729號就講得很清楚：這個屬於偵查權：是國家進行犯罪的偵查追溯：那基於權力分立跟制衡的原則：我們必須保障檢察機關獨立行使職權：對於偵查中的案件：檢察官不得向其調閱相關卷證："},{"start":3513.223,"end":3534.391,"text":"不得這個是400這個是4至729號公六甲請測所以我們今天針對監偵查中的案件難得被刑死難得被還成立這個調查小組調閱都不可以了我們還要調查小組基本上今天這樣的一個開會就已經違反了4至729號的違憲了"},{"start":3537.492,"end":3544.457,"text":"我們今天這個會這樣定於違憲啊,人家就說不行,我們就硬要開門,生意有一股危啦,廟公吼,念經吼,沒比較積在回想啦。就是說你是廟公,你如果要賣賣吼,要賣房子,你賣房子感受什麼比較有房子啦,廟公比較沒積在回想啦。"},{"start":3561.641,"end":3577.533,"text":"所以我們立法委員我們幹嘛要把自己擴權然後要把手伸到了這一個檢察官地檢署的一個手上而且更荒謬的是我們在通過這個立法院職權行使法藍白一起要強行通過的46條之二"},{"start":3580.055,"end":3603.055,"text":"至少也有載明這一段,至少這一段也是在4至729號,他的精神都放進去,雖然放了也不完全,因為你們沒有講到說所謂牽結的案件,所謂不起訴的案件,他的調查的方法,但是至少也有講嘛,至少也有說吼,就以偵查中所謂的處置或卷證,立法院不得行使調查權"},{"start":3605.083,"end":3613.106,"text":"每次都說得這麼清楚：大法官也說得這麼清楚：昨天的處理：大法官針對這一次違憲擴權的法案的一個暫時處分：昨天的規定而已：大法官還問說：有立即的違憲嗎：謝謝趙偉你讓全國的國民看到立即的違憲的風險就在我們經濟委員會今天的開會"},{"start":3633.665,"end":3633.765,"text":"主席"},{"start":3657.881,"end":3665.568,"text":"大家好那其實剛剛前面幾位委員他們在講的都是針對超思雞蛋但是呢我們很明顯的本委員會今天要討論的是有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組跟作業要點跟超思有什麼關係呢我現在先拿出來請大家仔細看這個是什麼"},{"start":3686.621,"end":3703.351,"text":"總統府公報第7728號民國113年6月24號大家仔細看上面寫什麼總統令所以這是總統府公報的上面寫的一清二楚總統賴清德我是想要問"},{"start":3708.215,"end":3717.384,"text":"這個是完整經過完備的法制程序三讀通過的法為什麼民進黨自己不尊重民進黨的委員為什麼會不尊重賴總統所公布的這個總統令呢"},{"start":3723.51,"end":3725.112,"text":"如果民進黨的委員不接受不同意為什麼賴清德總統還要公告呢?如果真的違憲的話就是賴清德總統帶頭違憲"},{"start":3738.464,"end":3755.972,"text":"在座的委員們是在跟賴總統唱反調嗎?在座的委員們是在跟賴總統內鬥嗎?為什麼總統府公告的你們大家都說是違憲呢?所以呢我本席想要知道就是說"},{"start":3758.267,"end":3783.758,"text":"調查小組的必要性難道大家都不覺得調查小組有其必要性嗎?全民難道都不想知道真相嗎?你們大家都不想知道真相嗎?還是其實在座的民進黨委員都已經知道真相只是因為真相如果被查出來不能看所以百般的阻擾今天調查小組的成立"},{"start":3784.838,"end":3785.038,"text":"本期再給你們看"},{"start":3814.605,"end":3830.976,"text":"第8章總統公布的第8章裏面第45條裏面就寫得很清楚立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予之職權得經院會同意設立調查委員會或經委員會之決議設立調查小組"},{"start":3838.466,"end":3843.875,"text":"對相關議案或立法委員職權相關之事項行使調查權跟調閱權這上面寫的一清二楚一清二楚在總統公布的這個總統令上面所以呢"},{"start":3855.271,"end":3855.631,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請張祺凱委員"},{"start":3900.645,"end":3916.563,"text":"謝謝主席請所有的立法委員：包括民進黨的立法委員：跟人民站在一起人民要真相我們民進黨的立委不要一直只是在護衛行政部門把立法院職權閹割了"},{"start":3919.039,"end":3940.196,"text":"把自己當行政院的立法局．變成行政院的打手人民要真相需要成立有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組其實民進黨今天在會議上講的上星期在交通委員會叫司法的聯席會議都講過一輪經過辯論"},{"start":3944.997,"end":3963.088,"text":"後來也成立啦 民進黨後來沒有再抗議這個 民進黨只有抗議什麼不要聯席 不要聯席 不要交通委員會 不要交通委員會跟司法委員會聯席所以今天我們把它單純化 今天的小組 是由經濟委員會"},{"start":3968.271,"end":3997.291,"text":"單獨成立．沒有像進電視的弊案調查小組是兩個委員會的聯席沒關係請尊重我的講話請重講話等一下你第二輪可以繼續講這案通常剛剛嘉靖有講了操司只是其中的一部分立法院當然有職責啊人民要真相啊整個進口蛋為古年的巴西蛋一直到前年日本蛋不是只有操司喔"},{"start":3998.552,"end":4000.914,"text":"用的是我們人民納稅錢啊"},{"start":4025.253,"end":4038.54,"text":"第二個要清楚當初怎麼接上線啊沒有關上勾結這個不用查嗎請民進黨的立法委員面對現實給人民真相為什麼不查呢這樣對得起人民嗎我覺得今天最重要的是我們收到人民的戶頭第一個把人民的納稅錢要勘緊第二個要有真相人民的態度已經是那麼清楚了"},{"start":4054.039,"end":4054.059,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":4086.909,"end":4088.478,"text":"接下來我們請謝依鳳委員請做發言"},{"start":4097.503,"end":4120.262,"text":"主席各位本委員會以及所有的媒體先進大家早安其實我們剛才要澄清的就是民進黨所說的我們要在這裡對所進行的進口雞蛋做審判我們沒有地檢署的審判權我們沒有地檢署的調的那個實行他檢調的權利也沒有"},{"start":4123.044,"end":4136.943,"text":"法院審判的權利我們在這裡只是對於行政院的進口雞蛋的這樣子的執行來進行調查權的形式那這根據的是6月24號"},{"start":4138.866,"end":4151.434,"text":"我們賴清德總統所通過的新的職權行使法的第45條來行使的那剛才民進黨委員有提到的根據46條之二部分"},{"start":4154.216,"end":4158.74,"text":"那到底會不會跟目前檢調在進行辦案調查的相關的範圍會有重疊的部分我認為這需要上代調查小組成立之後我們與農業部對於相關檢調在進行的案件以及我們整體就是行政院對於進口雞蛋執行去年的情況"},{"start":4182.739,"end":4206.659,"text":"我們來做相關的討論那對於檢調進行的部分我們是不是就不調那對於我們需要了解政策執行的部分相關的這些資料我們也行使調查的權利那希望在委員會可以公諸給所有民眾了解去年進口雞蛋"},{"start":4207.279,"end":4208.3,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做發言"},{"start":4250.743,"end":4276.861,"text":"主席、各位委員今天是針對有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組以及運作要點草案剛才民進黨的委員、我們的同仁一再的提的都是已經調查的我們這裡沒有針對已經調查的"},{"start":4279.867,"end":4301.419,"text":"是整個進口雞蛋我們如果從去年來看農業部啟動專案進口措施從美國、日本、澳洲、巴西、土耳其、菲律賓、馬來西亞、新加坡、泰國等國家進口雞蛋"},{"start":4306.482,"end":4331.81,"text":"沒有針對哪一個已經當然我們要依賴清德總統所公布施行的立法院職權行使法的修正條文來辦理所以已經在調查的訴訟判決確定之前我們當然就不調查不列入在這個地方"},{"start":4333.417,"end":4362.75,"text":"所以這個並沒有寫說是哪一個案我們沒有寫哪一個案這是第一個第二個剛才也有提到說昨天憲法法庭針對緊急暫停處分如果我們從憲法法庭昨天的那個快速不對配合之快我們就可以了解到更應該要去"},{"start":4364.54,"end":4391.137,"text":"成立這個調查小組從來沒有一個案這麼快何況現在還沒有做成處分還沒有做成判決我修正了憲法法庭對於所提的暫停處分也還沒有做判決我們要依憲法"},{"start":4392.318,"end":4421.725,"text":"依法例來執行．所以．有什麼好擔心的呢．我們不應該擔心．我們是為了人民．立法委員都是為了人民．來去進行我們的前者．所以我們根據立法院三讀通過的條文．我們根據賴總統依憲法的規定．所公布施行的條文．"},{"start":4423.562,"end":4445.222,"text":"來進行成立這個調查專案小組以及運作要點所以這個部分請大家能夠基於這樣的一個我們立法院的前者來辦理以上謝謝好謝謝謝謝鄭委員我們接下來請鄭正前委員請發言"},{"start":4456.725,"end":4472.778,"text":"謝主席今天安排了就是有關於就是有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組還有運作要點的一個草案那我在想說因為總統令這邊的時候其實很清楚所以剛剛很多委員大家在討論都是針對"},{"start":4474.679,"end":4492.273,"text":"第46條之二的部分因為大家也認為今天能夠召開這個專案小組成立的這樣的一個討論的時候就是因為針對46條之二那我個人從這個46條之二的法條上來看的時候因為46條之二的時候在第二項的部分他指針對"},{"start":4493.534,"end":4513.198,"text":"其偵查或審判所為之處置或其卷證在這個範圍當中不得行使調查權我們肯定是尊重因為是我們立出來的一個法所以我們今天針對的部分並不是針對超失個案的部分而是針對整個進口雞蛋的部分所以剛剛有很多委員也都提到了因為"},{"start":4513.678,"end":4529.11,"text":"整個進口雞蛋的範圍其實相對是比較廣的那所以說並不是針對整個的一個目前檢調他們在查的這個部分那針對第46條之二的部分第三項的部分他也有做了一個補充的一個說明他說當我們這個調查"},{"start":4531.973,"end":4552.006,"text":"委員會第2小組成立之後那如果其他依法應獨立行使職權的機關以本於職權進行處理相關案件時那我們調查委員會第2小組可以停止調查所以說這個部分我們現在在做的一個部分就是因為民眾都非常非常關心就是從111年以來整個"},{"start":4552.586,"end":4564.454,"text":"但黃所導致的一連串的一個問題那當然我們知道現在檢調確實在某一些部分還有介入個案的一個調查那農業部他有他也有在做一些反應可是我們發現農業部的一些反應是跟我們"},{"start":4568.396,"end":4568.656,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4594.248,"end":4601.992,"text":"討論是不是要得停止調查我們專案小組這部分而不是應停止所以我覺得這部分事實上是我們這個小組成立之後能夠繼續對於整個雞蛋相關進口事件"},{"start":4610.536,"end":4610.576,"text":"謝謝 以上"},{"start":4637.964,"end":4646.402,"text":"好 謝謝曾正琴委員 謝謝現在我們進行二輪發言有登記第一位我們是邱奕穎委員請做發言"},{"start":4655.49,"end":4669.962,"text":"第二輪發言感謝剛剛國民黨的委員對於這個立法委員職權行使法的這個法條修正的過程內容再進一步的闡述那我想要再進一步的詢問跟請教"},{"start":4672.244,"end":4690.266,"text":"剛剛大家一直在談這個法是由賴清德總統公告你們剛剛念的職權行使法只念了一部分我們一直在質疑的第46條之二你們連看都不敢看連讀都不敢讀連念都不敢念那剛剛鄭正前委員也特別提到"},{"start":4691.508,"end":4707.308,"text":"這個成立叫做有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組嘛對不對所以你們不是只有查超私我必須告訴大家111年進口雞蛋的廠商兩家一家叫亮彩一家叫超私112年有4家"},{"start":4711.393,"end":4726.231,"text":"所以,檢調要查的話,會是全部都查,檢調也不是只有查超私,也不是只有查亮彩,檢調叫做全部都查,全部都查就會落到您剛剛所說的"},{"start":4729.034,"end":4757.117,"text":"這個在調查中的檢調在調查中的案件立法院是不是應該要停止調查立法院就不能來成立這樣的一個調查小組剛剛張家俊委員一開始說不是查超私最後又講說超私的案子難道大家不想知道嗎其實我們也很想知道但是檢調在調查監察院也在調查如果按照你們剛剛一直念的"},{"start":4758.497,"end":4774.505,"text":"總統公告的立法委員職權行使法立法委員：立法院是不能成立不能行使這樣的調查權但是在第46條之二的第三項剛剛政政前委員也很清楚講到最後一句"},{"start":4775.605,"end":4798.505,"text":"調查委員會得停止調查正常來講應該是要寫應停止調查但是這個由國民黨民眾黨通過的法條寫得停止調查也就是剛剛鄭正前委員所說的你們可以自行決定你們要不要停止調查因為他是得不是應那"},{"start":4799.486,"end":4810.68,"text":"照您剛剛的解釋這不是擴權這不是違憲那什麼才叫擴權什麼才叫違憲明明都在法院的調查裡頭在檢調的調查裡頭了而由立法委員自己去解釋說"},{"start":4816.147,"end":4837.722,"text":"我可以我得停止調查不是我應停止調查很顯然這個法條在立的過程裡頭就已經漏洞百出這是根據剛剛各位委員所說的第三點我要提到鄭天才委員臺大法律系畢業你說關鍵資料你們不調閱請教一下"},{"start":4843.158,"end":4865.538,"text":"請教一下檢調在調查的資料是不是關鍵資料檢調已經把所有的資料通通調到檢調單位裡頭去了然後你們在這裡成立一個調查委員會那你說關鍵資料你們不會去調閱你們會去避過那請問你成立這個調查委員會要幹嘛你這個調查小組你要查什麼"},{"start":4867.233,"end":4888.564,"text":"所以喔 你們不要再講了啦 你們越講漏洞越多啊 自己被打臉打得越腫 我剛剛已經說過了張祺凱你不要叫我們起義來歸 這沒有什麼起義來歸 反而是你要起義來歸你的頭腦要清楚 你當了一輩子的媒體人 怎麼會在最後這半年歪成這樣 壞成這樣呢 腦袋壞成這樣呢"},{"start":4892.079,"end":4892.8,"text":"二輪發言 張祺凱委員"},{"start":4915.646,"end":4941.629,"text":"我不好意思說邱委員腦袋不清楚啦因為他腦袋非常清楚不過時間差完全弄錯了你有時間上很大的錯誤你剛才說檢調單位去年四家前年兩家都要查嗎你知道檢調現在在查什麼嗎地檢署現在在查什麼因為去年發生巴西蛋的這個超市的案子很多人去案名申告對不對"},{"start":4943.203,"end":4961.079,"text":"有嗎?秋瑩秋瑩,想換嗎?你時間差是不是有問題?地檢署現在有沒有在查經營的事?沒有這個案子,你趕快去案例申告才有可能。我再重複一下,我再重複一下,現在地檢署在查什麼案?因為去年的巴西超濕蛋,發生了"},{"start":4963.014,"end":4981.919,"text":"讓會人民的民始民高．裡面黑幕重重．所以有很多人包括立法院去北檢各個地檢署按齡申告對不對那大家很生氣的立法委員開始在重新執行之前北檢高國威當木頭人全部停擺連相關的人連被告一個都沒有傳"},{"start":4983.786,"end":5010.62,"text":"立法院不該問嗎?立法院不該回應民意,幫民意去發聲嗎?如果那時候立法委員,包括我本席在內,沒有問,北檢這個案子會重新好查嗎?這是第一次,第二次,第三次,邱委員剛才說的,你說有在查另外的兩家嗎?如果不是我們這兩三個月窮追猛打,說還有一個超私,不是只有去年的巴西蛋,前年還有日本蛋,還有一個亮柴跑出來,"},{"start":5012.839,"end":5026.171,"text":"這是新的東西欸 秋瑩 腦筋清楚一點你連這個案情都搞不清楚很清楚 你剛開始罵人 腦袋不清楚你連最基本的時間都搞不清楚 真相都弄不清楚"},{"start":5031.099,"end":5042.792,"text":"現在是我的時間所以現在我們公開會議請大家弄清楚請大家弄清楚剛剛邱委員講的只有那時候去安寧申告去北檢的那些狀況而且北檢到現在"},{"start":5044.619,"end":5061.376,"text":"還沒有好好查第二個我們這個專案小組還要往前推包括前年日本的超市蛋跟量產到底是什麼關係這是一個點第二個我要非常倚重心長的然後講心情有點沉重的講拜託一下民進黨的立委"},{"start":5063.28,"end":5079.739,"text":"回到人民這邊好不好你們現在一直站在立法委那一站在行政院那邊把我們當成一個小小的立法局一直在閹割自己的前線啊你們閹割自己當心裡的小偷不打緊你現在偷我們下水我們成立一個調查小組回應民意有什麼不好讓人民知道真相啊"},{"start":5081.26,"end":5105.296,"text":"怎麼會違法違憲呢?在釋字585包括整個憲法這個規定裡面本來各自就是不一樣的我們的立法權裡面有我們立法委員該做的你說真的我們調查小組調查完之後真正有問題需要糾正要彈劾的送到監察院去對不對?真正有刑責的還是要送到地檢署去啊"},{"start":5106.328,"end":5123.868,"text":"有刑者你要不要起訴後來法院會判刑後面也是要走啊那如果民進黨這樣把立法院關起來算了請你們回應民意民意呼聲那麼高進口雞蛋從去年到全年那麼多問題浪費多少人民的民脂民膏裡面黑幕重重沒有關山勾結嗎"},{"start":5125.41,"end":5137.691,"text":"立委跟那些民眾都已經安寧申告了北省不好查到現在進度這麼慢為什麼要阻擋我們調查小組的這個調查請回到人民這邊給人民真相幫人民那稅錢省下來把真相追清楚謝謝"},{"start":5139.164,"end":5140.625,"text":"賴慧如委員"},{"start":5163.634,"end":5177.328,"text":"謝謝主席、各位委員我想這個追求真相給人民交代這是大家的要求也是一個目的但現在最好的方法就是透過檢調、透過司法來調查清楚我認為以台灣現狀的話"},{"start":5179.149,"end":5200.454,"text":"立法委員在人民的信任度倒數第二名由立法院來調查跟由司法院來調查誰信任我比較相信司法院會把真相查得清楚所以到底有沒有不法 有不法當然讓司法來查清楚那如果沒有不法的話就應該還給公務員跟還給所有的人清白司法調查中我認為其實是最好的方式"},{"start":5201.094,"end":5217.031,"text":"這時候透過立法院政治的手伸進去處理我認為不是一個好的方法同時間有可能是擴權有可能是違憲那還是回到這個來談剛剛很多的委員們談到台北地檢署地檢署也特別在這件事情在6月27號發了一個新聞稿出來他說的是"},{"start":5220.154,"end":5235.539,"text":"臺北地基金署受理告發進口雞蛋相關貪賭、詐欺、偽造文書等案件持續向農業部、中央續產會等機關調閱資料進行資金清查並指揮法務部調查局、臺北市調處積極偵辦當中並無延旦情勢本案的檢察官將試進度來做適當的偵查作業"},{"start":5243.661,"end":5263.559,"text":"很清楚地檢署已經很清楚的在做這樣的一個進度的一個調查跟說明那裡面也談到不只是超市案是連所有的進口雞蛋都在查這跟今天想要通過的是一致的包括貪賭、詐欺、偽造文書的部分這個也都是"},{"start":5265.401,"end":5280.902,"text":"這段時間來大家告發的行為所以由地檢署司法來偵辦我相信是最恰當也最適合也最沒有任何的爭議的這時候立法院要另外再繞過一個途徑來訂定這個專案小組逾越到司法權"},{"start":5282.023,"end":5310.189,"text":"立法委員的公信力會比司法更高嗎?會比法更高?如果立委真的這麼認為那你應該轉職啦改去當法官改去當檢察官比較適當不是當立法委員立法委員是立一個法座讓司法機關去進行他的相關職責這個才是五權分立的精神所以我呼籲立法院不要逾越到自己的職責再來我還是要強調即使在大法官的釋字729號也講得非常的清楚"},{"start":5311.426,"end":5326.42,"text":"檢查機關代表國家進行犯罪之偵查及追溯基於權力分立與制衡的原則保障檢調檢查機關獨立行使職權對於偵查中的案件立法院自不得向調閱不得調閱相關的這個證券"},{"start":5328.863,"end":5343.723,"text":"所以這個已經非常清楚大法官再次強調偵辦當中的案件這一個就是講到的裡面的雞蛋進口雞蛋相關的貪賭、詐欺、偽造文書全部都在偵辦當中那如果所有的資料都已經被"},{"start":5345.604,"end":5368.209,"text":"這個地檢署在偵辦當中了那我們成立這個要調什麼依照剛剛國民黨委員講的你說我們不會去涉及到這些資料關鍵重要的資料如果地檢署沒調走那地檢署在辦什麼還能辦出公信力的案子嗎那如果重要資料他都已經調走了那成立這個立法院成立這個的目的又要在幹什麼你能夠調到時候你要去批評這個資料沒給我那個資料沒給我"},{"start":5370.629,"end":5385.184,"text":"所以我的意思是說這個時間點最關鍵的其實應該是靜候司法的調查讓司法還原真相有不法就辦沒不法就還原清白再次回到強調不只是這個大法官四次這樣講"},{"start":5386.465,"end":5416.185,"text":"自己通過的這個違憲疑慮現在這個釋憲都在進行當中好歹尊重一下嘛都在釋憲進行當中這時候成立這個專案小組你不是在跟整個司法體制跟整個大法官的會議整個在做挑戰嗎我認為至少尊重司法讓大法官的會議做出釋憲的決定之後再來進行退一萬步來講就算你要弄也很清楚知道立法院不得行使調查權在這個偵查中的"},{"start":5422.507,"end":5441.212,"text":"現在所有的雞蛋相關的貪賭、詐欺、偽造文書全部都在調查中全部都依你就算你通過了法都不應該行使調查權所以我們呼籲藍白立委不要再違憲違法了這樣的作為不是在查真相這個作為只是在違憲違法"},{"start":5442.412,"end":5445.373,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請張家俊委員那麼我們後面還有陳廷飛委員做二輪發言那我們就截止登記 謝謝"},{"start":5467.537,"end":5488.428,"text":"主席我就想要問民進黨到底在怕什麼到底在怕什麼為什麼不願意把真相公開剛才邱映穎委員說其實檢調可以查所有的案子啊我現在想要質疑的是民進黨委員現在已經是可以指揮檢調辦案是不是所以他可以指使檢調說你全部案子要查呀為什麼我們可以查我們不自己查還要交給檢調你看四字585號裡面就說"},{"start":5498.053,"end":5512.238,"text":"國會應有調查權不是要調閱資料是要自行調查檢調查了一年多了一年多了不公開而且也沒有進度那委員為什麼不相信自己呢為什麼不相信說我們可以一起合作民進黨、國民黨、民眾黨"},{"start":5517.64,"end":5540.777,"text":"我們三黨的委員一起合作在經濟委員會成立調查小組把真相公布給民眾讓大家可以知道這對民進黨也沒有任何的不利啊只要是沒有不法對任何的黨都沒有任何的不利而且不只是超思絕對不只是超思要查的有這麼多包括說"},{"start":5543.695,"end":5549.777,"text":"這個農委會補貼中央續產會買蛋的運送冷鏈相關的補助竟然多補了而且呢理由是未依採購法所以要追討回368萬的補助款這個這些錢如果不是這一段時間立法院立法委員一直在委員會質詢的話我們連我們失去了"},{"start":5573.706,"end":5576.668,"text":"多補了368萬都不知道,你們相信這是唯一一件嗎?本席認為肯定不只這一件,一定有非常多需要查清楚的真相。"},{"start":5593.721,"end":5595.602,"text":"所以過去發生的類似的問題我們是不是應該積極把它還原把真相還給人民所以本席在這裡認為"},{"start":5605.839,"end":5613.124,"text":"成立調查小組是有其必要性成立調查小組是有其必要性剛才已經講了總統公佈的這麼清楚假設就像你們講的是違法違憲的話為什麼賴總統要公佈賴總統是帶頭違憲嗎本期在這裡強烈的質疑所以"},{"start":5627.214,"end":5643.346,"text":"請民進黨的委員我們是不是一起共同的來合作一起三黨共同合作把真相調查出來這樣子你們也可以洗清這種可能也許這是你們的冤屈啊大家一直說這個是民進黨所主導的我們把真相公諸於世的話對民進黨也是有好處的為什麼一再的阻撓呢"},{"start":5654.861,"end":5655.343,"text":"陳婷菲委員"},{"start":5665.738,"end":5689.868,"text":"謝謝主席齁首先我們沒有阻擾我們認為要調查清楚現在檢調都在調查了監察院也在調查了每一個體系可以調查行使調查權的都在調查了所以我們沒有害怕民進黨沒有害怕甚至"},{"start":5691.408,"end":5710.123,"text":"農業部也在今年的6月7號把所有相關的案子都已經自行移送臺北地檢署來調查所以沒在怕的調查清楚我們也希望檢調監察院趕快以最速的速度"},{"start":5711.384,"end":5728.178,"text":"公開給所有台灣人民知道這一件所謂的超私蛋到底是怎麼一回事所以我們希望檢調查清楚希望監察院查清楚但是今天比較奇怪的邏輯是說為什麼我們都要交給檢調那所以立法院未來就是檢調囉"},{"start":5737.981,"end":5755.196,"text":"我們不是有權責的劃分嗎?當時我們說違憲就是因為檢調有調查權監察院有調查權如果立法院有調查權他的範圍跟他的所施的職責要怎麼去論斷"},{"start":5756.924,"end":5765.134,"text":"這個就是大家都還沒說清楚講明白也沒有討論清楚就這樣直接過關大家認為這有違憲的問題所以沒有害怕調查我們是認為這邏輯有問題而且我們所說的"},{"start":5776.673,"end":5792.265,"text":"立法院職權行使法就算我們現在我們民進黨團已經把它送所謂釋憲的階段而且昨天也對於緊急處分已經開了憲法法庭"},{"start":5793.683,"end":5818.895,"text":"那這重不重要就是因為總統簽字了我們認為這是行政程序總統不能不簽啊如果總統不簽國民黨又要罵了所以簽字我們趕快緊急處分可是緊急處分之後昨天憲法法庭大家看得很清楚有不同的論述而且也看到很多人被問到啞口無言"},{"start":5820.856,"end":5835.464,"text":"所以緊急處分在進行當中我們今天針對立法院職權行使法說要成立調查專案小組好我們再把這個立法院職權行使法再拿出來看更好笑"},{"start":5837.731,"end":5857.839,"text":"國民黨自己就又在違規違法因為46條之後就已經跟你講了裡面就算是我們不認同這個法可是我們在把這個法拿出來因為剛剛有人說這個法是總統已經簽訂的但是我們再次強調現在在做緊急處分"},{"start":5858.439,"end":5869.849,"text":"我們就拿這個法來看這個法裡面就跟你講了如果訴訟的案件在偵查或審判已經在調查了立法院不得行使調查權講得這麼清楚這也是國民黨一直在捍衛的這一部法立法院職權行使法國民黨一直在談的可是國民黨在談的自己現在又是違規違法了"},{"start":5886.587,"end":5914.645,"text":"再一次強調,判決確定前之訴訟案件,就其偵查或審判所為之處置及其卷證,立法院不得行使調查權。所以剛剛已經講了,你們從所有的媒體google一下對於這一個超市蛋有多少個檢調已經在查了包括地檢署包括調查處都在查了監察院也在查了"},{"start":5915.97,"end":5935.105,"text":"那請問我們可以去行使調查權嗎?這是你們白抓黑你寫的喔這是你們國民黨自己所寫的所提的喔那難道我們現在在做違規違法的動作嗎?先不要談違憲囉現在憲法法庭在執行當中但是又違規違法了所以今天要怎麼成立?太好笑了吧!"},{"start":5948.213,"end":5976.628,"text":"好 謝謝那我們今天經過一輪二輪各位委員都充分討論過了那我們現在就你還要發言嗎各位同仁剛剛是已經截止發言我尊重大家還要不要再給先鋒委員一個發言還是大家要不要三輪要不要我尊重大家剛剛我是有宣告那要不要"},{"start":5978.646,"end":5978.666,"text":"請宣讀"},{"start":6007.199,"end":6023.162,"text":"我們依法處理議事規則我尊重各位委員請宣讀為查明政府因應淡荒而陸續啟動之進口雞蛋相關措施維持情況之依立法院職權行使法第8章會議請我們經濟委員都最理性齁好啦等一下再講啦要求有關機關就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料"},{"start":6036.104,"end":6040.011,"text":"在列就已經違憲違法已經違法違規了啊這已經違法違規了啊沒有啦這已經違法違規了啊已經違法違規了"},{"start":6050.333,"end":6053.756,"text":"請問各位同仁剛剛議事組人員宣讀過成立進口雞蛋執行情形調查小組請問有沒有異議"},{"start":6077.152,"end":6090.457,"text":"請問有沒有異議?你沒有異議齁?好,休息。"},{"start":6103.108,"end":6122.932,"text":"主席鬧跑開會不要走主席鬧跑啊現場的人沒過半哦主席都鬧跑了摸著你們的良心啊違法違憲"},{"start":6136.342,"end":6137.247,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6166.013,"end":6166.935,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6174.28,"end":6174.68,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6200.801,"end":6201.462,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6223.466,"end":6223.907,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6243.629,"end":6256.799,"text":"好 謝謝我們繼續開會請問各位同仁成立進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組請問有沒有異議沒有好 謝謝那無異議我們通過"},{"start":6259.271,"end":6277.864,"text":"我們現在進行運作要點草案請宣讀立法院經濟委員會進口雞蛋相關措施及預算執行必端調查專案小組運作要點草案依立法院經濟委員會依立法院職權行使法第8章調查權之行使及立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第20次會議決議"},{"start":6281.346,"end":6304.868,"text":"成立進口雞蛋相關措施及預算執行弊端調查專案小組,以下簡稱本小組。2.本小組運作除有關法令另有規定外,依本要點行之。3.本小組由經濟委員會以下簡稱本會,全體委員組成之。4.本小組至召集人一人,由參加本小組成員互選。"},{"start":6305.869,"end":6333.465,"text":"負責處理小組事務並代表本小組對外發言。5.本小組會議需有委員三分之一出席方得開會,其決議以出席委員過半數同意行之,但在場出席委員不足三人者,不得一決,必要時得以祕密會議方式行之。6.本小組會議有關連署或附屬人數,準用本院各委員會會議之規定。"},{"start":6336.167,"end":6342.652,"text":"7本小組運作期間自民國113年7月11日至113年12月31日但經本小組決議得延長之資料查閱時間為每週一至週五上午9時至下午5時8本小組成員行使調查職權時"},{"start":6357.866,"end":6373.264,"text":"應親自為之並署名於查閱登記部查閱人員負保密義務對機密文件不得抄錄、攝影、影印、送讀、錄音或為其他複製行為亦不得將文件稀離查閱場所或洩漏之"},{"start":6374.065,"end":6393.757,"text":"前項機密文件如被調查機關拒絕提供時﹐該機關應以書面示明機密之種類及原因﹐並於三個工作天內﹐送交本小組存查。9.本小組對外行為得以本會名義為之﹐本小組成員未經決議不得以本小組名義對外發言。10."},{"start":6396.789,"end":6409.743,"text":"本小組調查文件之對象為農業部及相關部會但經本小組決議亦得增加調查對象本小組擬調查之文件應經三人以上提案並經本小組決議通過調取之"},{"start":6412.385,"end":6432.521,"text":"調查文件以副本為原則。十一本小組會議召開時﹐得邀請被調查文件之機關首長﹐率同有關人員列席說明﹐受邀請者非有正當理由不得拒絕出席及說明。十二本小組為因調查文件需要﹐得附相關單位查訪﹐並得詢問於本"},{"start":6434.062,"end":6456.828,"text":"案相關之人士或諮詢專家學者本小組會議召開及調查文件時得必聘請專家學者陪同調查及針對調查內容表示意見。傾向專家學者之人選以二人為限由召集人提名,全體本小組成員表決之。十三,被調查對象在調查期間"},{"start":6458.198,"end":6472.334,"text":"應指派專人將調查文件送達指定場所以供查閱並由本會派員管理及副保管責任。十四未行使調查職權必要時經本小組一立法院職權行使法第59條之二規定舉行聽證會"},{"start":6475.517,"end":6488.476,"text":"15本小組提出調查報告及處理意見應經本會決議調查報告書及處理意見未提出前工作人員、專業人員、保管人員或查閱人員負有保密之義務"},{"start":6490.031,"end":6515.174,"text":"不得對文件內容或處理情形予以揭露,涉及依法令應秘密事項者,應予保密並以秘密會議處理之。16本小組所需工作人員由本會職員擔任,必要時得依立法院職權行使法第49條規定,請求院長指派專業人員協助。17本運作要點由本會通過後施行,修正時異同。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6521.153,"end":6536.287,"text":"請問各位委員通過的作業要點草案有意義因為當中有幾個字我們經過議事組這邊所以我們現在先休息協商"},{"start":6748.168,"end":6748.768,"text":"首先第一點在於這個"},{"start":6777.54,"end":6797.955,"text":"提案的部分我們把提案相關措施及預算執行弊端這一塊弄成與今日的議事日程相符合這是第一個裡面有兩塊涉及的部分那第二個部分因為是已經成立專案小組所以裡面有本會這一塊我們就修正小組那第三點在第13點的這一塊"},{"start":6799.861,"end":6812.871,"text":"第2行以供查閱並由本會派員修正為以供查閱並派員有本會這三個字刪除第4點在第14點的部分第2行第59條之2規定舉行聽證會修正為第59條之2亦決舉行聽證會以上就照運作要點通過報告完畢"},{"start":6823.715,"end":6836.54,"text":"好謝謝各位同仁剛剛祖密所宣讀的經過協商我們的作業要點請問有異議好那我們作業要點通過"},{"start":6841.892,"end":6854.591,"text":"本委員會決議成立有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組且通過作業運作要點草案"},{"start":6856.107,"end":6871.58,"text":"那我們現在依照運作要點的規定本小組至召集人一人由參加本小組成員來互推請問各位同仁請推舉召集人曾振杰委員"},{"start":6877.334,"end":6886.883,"text":"我們經過鄭振賢委員﹚玉琳委員﹚天才委員﹚嘉峻委員﹚謝一鋒委員﹚昌明委員一致推舉張祺凱委員為召集人"},{"start":6897.042,"end":6911.647,"text":"好那謝謝各位同仁我們今天經過詳實的二輪發言正式完成本日議程處理完畢謝謝大家議事主任辛苦了媒體朋友辛苦了謝謝好今天議程散會"},{"start":6936.194,"end":6939.555,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6962.038,"end":6962.218,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"16090","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16090","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373dc95e053c453ffb766c84cb4fe30d9c7128aaa308df9ea373a5569f691144800d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Full","date":"2024-07-11","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-07-11T08:30:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T13:24:00+08:00","duration":17602,"影片長度":"04:53:22","委員發言時間":"08:30:38 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案。"},{"start":1769.434,"end":1780.166,"text":"二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":1789.858,"end":1815.225,"text":"一、立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議．事由．時間中華民國一百一三年七月十日上午九十至十二時十六分．本院群行樓一零一會議室初期委員萬美玲委員等15人內協議委員中嘉賓委員等14人內協人員河南安全委員會主任委員陳東陽社同有關人員經營部常務司長林錦章臺灣電力股份有限公司董事長曾文生國家發展委員會產業發展處檢任記政鄭永明"},{"start":1818.866,"end":1837.726,"text":"主席柯交集委員志恩報告事項、宣讀上次會議事錄、決定議事錄確定、討論事項、因審查委員王洪威等19人擬具合則反應器設施管制法第六條條文修正草案案等5案。進行詢答本次亦曾由委員萬美玲等17人提出質詢。"},{"start":1839.007,"end":1863.535,"text":"軍經、可能安全委員會主任委員陳獨陽、經濟部常務次長林錦章、臺灣電力股份有限公司董事長曾文生、國家發展委員會產業發展處檢任計政鄭永明及相關人員及其答覆說明。另有五委員吳春成等二人提出書面質詢。決議一報告及詢答完畢。六委員所對於書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並開設公報。三對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分。請相關機關技術以書面答覆。"},{"start":1865.356,"end":1868.821,"text":"四、核子反應器設施管制法相關修正草案另訂其繼續處審查。"},{"start":1876.155,"end":1876.435,"text":"第二十六條之"},{"start":1906.315,"end":1907.696,"text":"七條之二條文草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":1918.499,"end":1919.479,"text":"第二十四條之"},{"start":1937.904,"end":1946.809,"text":"三條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、"},{"start":1965.259,"end":1975.163,"text":"三條之一條文草案：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十六條之一條文草案：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文草案：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文草案：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文草案："},{"start":2003.345,"end":2023.024,"text":"三條之二條之一條文修正草案案 案 ﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案 案 ﹚立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之一條文修正草案 ﹚立法院第11會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第11會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第11會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":2028.325,"end":2046.411,"text":"三條文修正草案 案 規範不是無法保障運動賽事之公平性,如有不法分子破壞其禁忌公平性之事情,僅能原用刑法相關規定來辦理。」"},{"start":2049.093,"end":2051.834,"text":"二條文修正草案 案 ﹚一、審查委員"},{"start":2072.803,"end":2091.438,"text":"條文草案以完善我國法規對國內賽事禁忌公平性之保護並嚇阻不法分子企圖與不法手段來影響賽事獲取不法的利益。這個束縛有當當然在進行公決因為2009的時候職棒這個甲球賽這個這個"},{"start":2102.267,"end":2111.713,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案 案 令全民眾對職業運動賽事公平性的信任度,使得棒球產業受到嚴重衝擊,當時沒有辦法滿足一些法源作為審判的依據。"},{"start":2122.02,"end":2131.907,"text":"那最終啊涉案的人員只有以兩年以下有期徒刑並一顆滑金造成民怨繪騰那立法院於2011年1月通過這個運採條例第21條修正案"},{"start":2138.055,"end":2162.353,"text":"企圖加重對於打球員打假球簽讀的相關罰則那運採條例第二十一條僅有規範投注標的以及運動競技賽事若非這個運採投注的賽事恐有不適之用"},{"start":2163.985,"end":2187.221,"text":"而現今運動產業有許多具有規模性的運動職業聯盟來舉辦例行性的職業聯賽皆會投注標的的運動競技賽事不符合運產條例第二十一條之構成要件所以說近期發生職業籃球聯盟"},{"start":2189.693,"end":2207.524,"text":"球員射擊打假球以地下主投遷堵之不法案件違恐相關案件重演2009年職棒的假球賽沒有辦法可以重處這些涉案人員造成民眾對我國運動競賽事件"},{"start":2213.408,"end":2217.737,"text":"再度信任度來大幅下滑再度重創我國運動產業發展與運動競技環境之公平"},{"start":2224.152,"end":2249.222,"text":"氣氛二氛圍所以說我們今天要增加本條文希望整個運動賽事能夠以競爭公平性之保護以維護運動產業良善的一些發展以上謝謝好謝謝林德福委員的提案說明那我們接下來我們就請教育部的張亮政策來進行報告報告的時間是8分鐘"},{"start":2258.323,"end":2284.92,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生大家好今日應邀列席大院教育文化委員會第22次全體委員會審議運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案運動產業發展條例增訂二十四條之二條文草案運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、七條之二、第七條之三條文草案及運動產業發展條例增訂"},{"start":2286.781,"end":2291.548,"text":"第七條之一、第七條之二條文草案。在此僅進行檢要報告。"},{"start":2293.592,"end":2301.276,"text":"二條文草案、委員陳培宇等21人擬具運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一第七條之二條文草案、委員陳培宇等21人擬具運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一第七條之二條文草案、委員陳培宇等"},{"start":2322.987,"end":2338.667,"text":"及第七條之三條文草案及台灣民眾黨團擬具運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案。」說明如下。一、運動產業發展條例系本部會推動促進運動產業發展"},{"start":2341.365,"end":2357.996,"text":"所定之法源依據包括健全職業運動產業發展並推動相關業與運動加速職業化進程及重點運動賽事提供營利事業租稅優惠誘因鼓勵地方政府及公營事業投入運動產業那麼因應運動產業環境變化來提供運動產業相關輔導及講助以及為國人建構優質運動休閒環境等規範其能厚實運動產業利基健全運動產業發展"},{"start":2371.525,"end":2395.262,"text":"那麼本部對各委員及黨團所提草案回應說明如下一、委員蔡易餘等19人擬具《運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案》本部原則支持為考量營利事業捐贈租稅優惠提高捐贈金額減儲額度以及涉及稅務已與財政部言商二、"},{"start":2395.842,"end":2401.306,"text":"二條文草案、委員陳培宇等21人擬具運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之三條文草案、及臺灣民眾黨團擬具運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案。"},{"start":2421.616,"end":2443.839,"text":"等事案,各委員及黨團版本提案大部分內容與本部方向一致,本部原則之詞,那部分內容與條文條次、立法的目的、立法的用詞、中央主管機關公告之運動競技賽事,除納入投注標的之賽事外其餘以非法"},{"start":2444.44,"end":2458.06,"text":"方式妨害運動競技賽事公平性之罰金額度及解夥三人以上之徒刑刑度及處罰意圖營利之行為等相關事項與本部維護國內職業與業餘運動清新環境"},{"start":2462.75,"end":2479.801,"text":"希望帶給民眾精彩賽事的目標一致為將中央主管機關公告之職業與業餘運動賽事作為處罰要件事涉司法院及法務部全責以及未來刑事偵查審判事務運作之可行性令"},{"start":2480.922,"end":2505.173,"text":"涉罪刑法定級刑法明確性原則本案建議暫與保留並由本部、會商、司法院、法務部研議哪些賽制範圍之不公正行為須以刑法制裁第三、委員陳佩瑜等21人擬具《運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案》案"},{"start":2506.038,"end":2523.15,"text":"一、增列第七條之一明定各級政府與公營事業出資經營運動團隊之數量因注意性別比例平等原則且人員之禁用而排除政府採購法及公營事業管理法相關規定之限制。"},{"start":2524.791,"end":2544.358,"text":"違採購與人員禁用、仍受補助機關或目的事業主管機關監督並明訂相關管理辦法之授權法源。包括一、第一項各級政府與公營事業出資經營運動團隊涉及性別比例平等原則部分有助於落實性平政策並作為組建運動團隊之參考本部予以尊重。"},{"start":2548.322,"end":2576.176,"text":"第二、第二項人員禁用的部分可以排除政府採購法及國營事業管理法相關規定之限制,為人受補助機關或目的事業主管機關監督,並明定相關管理辦法之授權法源部分,試涉臺皮籃球隊及臺灣電力公司六支球隊球員投保問題,依實務運作若以換約方式即可解決長期球員未享有勞健保之疑義。"},{"start":2577.777,"end":2584.866,"text":"建議免疫增列那麼第二增列七條之二明定中央主管機關應積極輔導相關賽事之運動工會或團體成立並訂定運動員工會或團體之承認輔導業務費用與基本人事費團體"},{"start":2595.461,"end":2608.089,"text":"協約簽訂之獎補助及其他事項之相關辦法考量運動員工會之主管機關在中央為勞動部在地方為各直轄市縣市政府定有相關法規保障勞動權益並設有推動籌組工會或工會成立後"},{"start":2612.165,"end":2631.753,"text":"等相關輔導及講注等措施。本部體育署欲協助運動員工會及團體辦理組織發展事項,助補助辦理回饋列車計畫,補助建置職棒、退役人才媒合資料庫發展計畫,及補助翻譯國外職業運動資料等。本部體育署除了"},{"start":2632.353,"end":2645.521,"text":"持續進行行政協助措施外,亦鼓勵可善用勞動主管機關提供之專業資源及服務經驗,同時基於促進運動員工會組織培力及發展立場,若欲辦理或"},{"start":2647.793,"end":2670.314,"text":"推動相關活動計劃將依現行法規適時予以協助共同努力來保障運動員的權益建立免疫陣列最後為了促進運動產業發展提升產業國際競爭力感謝各位委員的關心及支持本次所提有關增加租稅優惠優因完善職業運動防堵機制"},{"start":2673.176,"end":2692.74,"text":"針對儲納入投注標的之賽事外其餘與非法手段妨礙賽事公平者應予處罰,提供地方政府及公營事業經營運動團隊經用人員之彈性以及輔導運動員工會或團體成立等提案,期望透過本次修法能夠營造運動產業更良好的經營環境,並增益運動產業發展實力。"},{"start":2696.735,"end":2720.241,"text":"以上報告,敬請各位委員持續給予本部支持與指教。詳細內容請參閱書面報告,並祝各位委員健康如意。謝謝。好,謝謝張六次長的報告。那我想我們事先確定這我們上次的議事錄,請問上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之錯?好,沒有的話那我們議事錄確定。那目前我們就來進行詢答。每位出席委員質詢時間是6分鐘,必要時延長2分鐘。列席委員質詢時間是4分鐘。"},{"start":2726.203,"end":2734.293,"text":"第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人�"},{"start":2756.211,"end":2756.532,"text":"二條之一條之一條"},{"start":2765.56,"end":2792.065,"text":"來,市長好市長委員好來,我想首先先要請教我們之前一直在爭取這個球員他代表出場的時候能夠要有出賽費那出賽費這個事情在六月的時候你看過去到現在本席也都一直關心這個議題就認為是說當初我們在修相關條例的時候出賽費他就是應該並不是一個薪水並不是有盈餘的時候才給如果說這樣可以的話那"},{"start":2792.785,"end":2813.935,"text":"一般其實也可以講是說我公司有賺錢我才給你薪水這是不對的但六月的時候我們看到是說籃球男籃很好可以有出賽費一個五千塊但沒想到最近又有風波就是同工不從同仇並且有男女性別平等的部分不平等的部分那為什麼會造成這樣的狀況"},{"start":2815.774,"end":2829.939,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例四、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例五、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例六、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例七、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例八、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條"},{"start":2842.304,"end":2863.294,"text":"今天是為什麼男男女男會不平等我想那個體育署長我們那時候看到的時候也覺得很奇怪我也跟署長講說這個好像涉及到性別平等的問題所以協會也沒有在制定的時候也沒有跟體育署報告他就自己制定了我想他協會是自主在運作啦坦白講就是說我們政策上當然基於性別平等基於為國家出賽必須應該談到這個出賽費的問題那我想署長這個細節部分是不是我們請署長"},{"start":2869.597,"end":2869.777,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":2884.427,"end":2913.386,"text":"這真的是完全沒有辦法能夠接受喔我們想教育部體育署這邊已經表達立場了是不是我們立場那未來怎麼樣防範這樣的事情在發生我想我們會積極的來跟各單項協會基於性別平等基於這個出賽費一律公平的情況下以及應該要來支付部分的費用那要透過一個民主機制來協商譬如說跟公會好好的來談然後能夠得到一個比較好的"},{"start":2913.926,"end":2927.171,"text":"能不能承諾至少未來不要再發生這個事情未來國際同一個盃賽只要是同一個盃賽球員的出賽費應該要一致我認為應該要一致能不能承諾能不能下這行政命令"},{"start":2928.973,"end":2948.528,"text":"我們會發文要求把這個委員的這個要求跟關心我想這是對的我想部這邊我們會跟體育署責成要求各單項協會以後必須採取一致的立場本席再次強調之前我也講過出賽費多少是協會或是球員他們去協調"},{"start":2950.569,"end":2951.029,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":2975.423,"end":2985.653,"text":"來再來今天講到這個運產條例的相關部分我先請教有一個Youtuber這個蠻紅的Bomb他之前也有這個"},{"start":2987.301,"end":3000.615,"text":"打詐、破貨、柬埔寨、救我們台灣的人回來。不過他比較關注最近都是打詐。他其中最近有一個話題就是有一些詐騙集團用運動彩券來做詐騙。我簡單敘述一下啦,因為這影片蠻長,二十幾分鐘,但是現在點閱已經快將近百萬。"},{"start":3007.982,"end":3026.377,"text":"三條之二條之二條之一條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條"},{"start":3034.13,"end":3042.432,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":3059.037,"end":3085.539,"text":"幾十萬。」等於是他直接下大錢這樣子那他裡面就講到如果說你可以其實上面都有彩券的號碼彩券的號碼現在只能查輸入只能查說這張券到底有沒有中獎但你沒有辦法顯示金額也因此很多的詐騙集團就會故意這樣子讓民眾誤以為他們真的有內線消息這影片出來一個半月了請教有沒有看到這樣的影片"},{"start":3088.158,"end":3111.28,"text":"體育署這邊有跟我們講說有這個情況我知道體育署好像也有內部看到並且因為本席辦公室那個時候也有跟體育署這邊來聯繫說應該要注意並且本席也說也要去思考那時候也看到說要去思考說這樣會不會有個人各自的問題但後來我們發覺是說除非你自己買了彩券之後你自己要高調的上網"},{"start":3111.88,"end":3112.9,"text":"三條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":3137.685,"end":3141.006,"text":"三條之一條文草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3166.954,"end":3182.219,"text":"三條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":3189.801,"end":3214.413,"text":"本席來不及提案但是本席今天也會做相關的這個修正動議那本席其實也有相關提案其實我們也知道現階段其實被大家詬病的一件事情就在於是說運採條例其實沒有納入沒有被納入運採條例的賽事他就沒有辦法用到我們這個是相關的這一個比較高的這個打假球防炸的一個法則"},{"start":3215.313,"end":3243.94,"text":"所以我們現在也在問這次的修法重點也希望是說能夠增加主管機關制定的認定的賽事就應該被納入這樣的一個罰則而不是只是運採開賣的因為運採開賣像國內之前TP、SBL有一些賽事他沒有開賣那這造成是說這可能會有這樣子刑責比較沒有辦法用到我們比較高的這個打打假球的一個刑責那我們要怎麼樣"},{"start":3244.865,"end":3264.431,"text":"我想這一部分我們很認同委員提案版本的精神所以我們在討論的時候我們會同意這個擴大把它納入就把一些我們國內常常球迷比較喜歡看的像直籃或者是這個直棒已經有了那譬如說有一些甚至是企業排球聯賽對對對像高中棒球籃賽聯賽等等黑豹旗HBL"},{"start":3270.493,"end":3271.353,"text":"三條之一條之一條"},{"start":3295.365,"end":3296.086,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":3311.528,"end":3312.529,"text":"條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":3330.109,"end":3351.808,"text":"對我想如果我們會入主條對在主條的時候法務部有代表過來我們如果或是你們應該就應該提出版本吧對取得公司的話因為我們現在委員你剛剛也講是說同意這樣的立法精神我想這也是我們應該要做的擴大納入那只是我們現在還沒有主條的時間嘛那教育部能不能在主條的時候能夠提出你們相當的版本"},{"start":3352.569,"end":3356.271,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":3371.698,"end":3372.098,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":3390.194,"end":3392.675,"text":"三條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條"},{"start":3421.94,"end":3433.403,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":3449.687,"end":3451.228,"text":"條文草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之二條文草案：立法院第11屆第12條之"},{"start":3471.235,"end":3472.715,"text":"三條之二條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":3489.62,"end":3500.024,"text":"我想這個是大家討論的過程裡面有意見那我也跟我們的同仁討論過是不會有涉及到違憲的部分本來就是而且你們剛剛說這是空白授權那我要請問你們目前運採條例的第三條你們運動採券的定義是指以各種運動競技為標的那我請你定義一下所謂的運動競技是什麼如果運動競技是你們可以這樣來然後就可以通過你們運採條例那我今天所提出來的當然也沒有所謂的這個空白授權的問題啊不是嗎"},{"start":3519.392,"end":3532.972,"text":"因為二十一條他其實你看他第三條講各種運動競技為標的那二十一條處罰又把他就是妨礙投注標的嘛所以是指運彩公司開的我們才罰那現在當然運彩公司沒有開的很多運動賽事的"},{"start":3534.614,"end":3540.219,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":3561.055,"end":3568.438,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人�"},{"start":3585.586,"end":3585.866,"text":"三、審查委員"},{"start":3615.566,"end":3616.326,"text":"第二十六條之一條文草案案。"},{"start":3633.295,"end":3637.037,"text":"已經被列為失蹤這都會是觸怒到我們WADA這樣的一個法規欸這很嚴重欸你到時候就要準備上場就發現你的藥檢並沒有被世俗的一個通知然後因此錯失了我想這裡面有些也不是國手啦不過"},{"start":3648.522,"end":3648.882,"text":"第二十四條之一條文草案案。"},{"start":3674.907,"end":3684.317,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等19人�"},{"start":3699.674,"end":3700.875,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":3726.361,"end":3734.443,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例�"},{"start":3755.907,"end":3760.229,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之"},{"start":3775.436,"end":3780.58,"text":"我本身是沒有聽到這件事情,我不知道署長有沒有,我請署長來回答署長你沒有聽到這件事情我們往下看他的執行長都已經要請辭了,為什麼?因為他認為體育署給他,他雖然是個獨立基金會可是他卻用你們代辦的費用裡面來支付他董事長的薪水代辦費用可以這樣做嗎?"},{"start":3794.773,"end":3815.416,"text":"報告委員,首先這些我先解釋一下,在幾年前挖打要求世界各國在政府支持運動經驗這件事情我們有簽一個合約,那這個合約上面有講到,第一個我們全力要支持他的那個。我知道了署長這都不是問題。第二個,不能有任何的介入,所以其實我們在這件事情上面我們也是第一次遇到,那我們也在學習。"},{"start":3815.796,"end":3822.798,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案�"},{"start":3844.346,"end":3846.928,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":3869.002,"end":3869.462,"text":"二條之一條之一條"},{"start":3883.976,"end":3911.765,"text":"所以我只能告訴你不要每次體育署的大辦費太多人需要被你們來照顧不要以獨立機關之時然後當你做任何事情的時候只是因為過去的資格資歷都非常的大然後以至於讓很多人都不敢去有任何的聲音出現我覺得這對我們來說是完全不能夠接受的好不好那最後的時間裡面我們來看一下我們現在目前要升格為體育暨運動發展部然後你們應該都辦了四次的論壇嘛對不對已經兩次了"},{"start":3913.305,"end":3934.532,"text":"已經兩次,成效怎麼樣?報告委員,其實我們第一場的確有點比較衝突,人數不夠多,但是第二場就滿場。滿場是社會賢達人士來,還是你體育署長動用所有的關係,請他們號召人數過來?報告委員,其實都是體育界的人,不管怎麼樣,他們各個階層,從專業運動教練到政府機關代表,幾乎都有人來參加。所以這叫社會共識嗎?"},{"start":3939.193,"end":3943.794,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":3962.739,"end":3968.763,"text":"三條之一條文草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條"},{"start":3992.799,"end":3996.482,"text":"三條之一條文草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4025.148,"end":4026.309,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":4042.558,"end":4060.735,"text":"這個計劃其實有很多的背景希望它這個計劃為期四年預計編列至少7億元再加上其他的配套很可能接下來出估要44億元本席在此對這個計劃表達支持因為它既可以幫助我們本土的落葉同時又可以為學童補充營養"},{"start":4061.556,"end":4075.851,"text":"但是有地方政府反映有一些配套措施及需要教育部來提供協助以立本項政策預計是要在九月就要推行首先學校反映有冷鏈可能斷鏈造成食安的問題"},{"start":4076.952,"end":4096.197,"text":"因為先來的運輸要在7度C,團扇的運送很可能動輒50到60度C起跳。另外運送可能是委外來的廠商來運送。想請教幾個問題。第一個,請教次長,針對校方反映先乳配送的問題,我們全台灣有2600多所國小跟輔助幼兒園的需求,我們如何來滿足?"},{"start":4098.166,"end":4105.449,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":4127.578,"end":4152.413,"text":"這個鮮乳配送問題到底有沒有在討論啊?您剛剛自己提到冷藏設備我想是這樣子啦就是說這個政策因為有主要是農業部這邊那當時他要協助諾農來解決這個就是你剛才委員所講的所以是由農業部那邊經過這個行政院的善意嘛對對對所以現在目前這個政策是由這個行政院的食安辦來做跨部會的協調"},{"start":4153.394,"end":4181.052,"text":"如果我們現在教育部這邊負責是他負責還是教育部負責當然當然都要負責啦這種問題嘛對嘛那我想是因為我們現在負責的部分就是去了解說我們現在配送的數量所以我們七月底以前會將這個兩千六百多九月來得及嗎來不來得及我想還必須要協調我們努力啦好還有齁剛剛您提到這個負責各自負責的問題齁你看我們目前市售鮮乳最低行情每瓶大概18.5塊齁"},{"start":4182.293,"end":4183.113,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":4196.625,"end":4212.812,"text":"我想今年下半年因為比較急迫所以目前行政院才是由農業部這邊來支付下半年度我們目前的共識就是希望九月能夠上路然後供應的次數不會少到月底"},{"start":4213.072,"end":4213.312,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":4229.696,"end":4248.605,"text":"我想這個學童的自主性我們也非常關注嘛對不對我們民主社會啊我們希望養成學生的這個自主嗎但是其實有很多人可能有一些他自己的這個狀況學童可能有身體因素沒有辦法喝牛奶或者是真的不太想喝牛奶的小朋友教育部有要提供其他的選項嗎"},{"start":4249.705,"end":4250.246,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":4267.52,"end":4267.98,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":4283.786,"end":4300.849,"text":"所以我想接下來想要來談一下體育界這個熱門的話題也就是我們的巴黎奧運7月26號要開幕我們有60名學手祝福他們要這個出發前往法國請問一下次長目前代表團的這個十一住行後勤中繼站等等是不是都已經安排妥當能不能解藥的說明"},{"start":4301.63,"end":4310.434,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之"},{"start":4330.663,"end":4332.565,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":4358.827,"end":4385.953,"text":"全部都是商務艙希望保障選手應有的權利讓他們有最好的發揮另外有一項國際賽事我也非常關注在沙烏地阿拉伯舉辦的2024電競世界盃我想我們都非常關注到底會不會有選手又去又沒有錢又沒水喝我們詢問了體育署結果體育署說這一場賽事沒有人透過中華民國電子競技協會報名參賽因此"},{"start":4387.953,"end":4414.028,"text":"不清楚報名隊伍比賽等等的情況一問三不知提署難道就是這樣關心我們的電競選手嗎今年四月初我剛剛提到的就是五天賽程他只有300塊美金台幣不到一萬塊的錢一天只敢吃一頓飯然後每天喝的水還要跟飯店去拜託他、給他最後報走了這個冠軍報百萬美元的獎金電競協會第一時間就發文祝賀"},{"start":4416.049,"end":4416.329,"text":"三條之二條之三條之"},{"start":4433.342,"end":4449.293,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案�"},{"start":4456.918,"end":4475.103,"text":"報告委員,第一個我先釐清,這間賽事,這個賽事它就是商業賽事,是個職業賽事,所以為什麼當初我們同仁一開始在處理這件案子的時候,沒有立即處理,原因就在這個地方,一般我們補助是到IOC底下的,這個奧會體系底下的,不一定要補助啊,有沒有人去參賽我們不用掌握嗎?"},{"start":4475.863,"end":4494.139,"text":"這部分就是因為他們職業選手會自己去比賽這個我們的確不會去掌握各個運動賽事我們得到答覆啦你們就說透過協會報名的才是國際賽事才是代表國家的國手你們才會來關注原則上是這樣那到底哪些電競賽事是你們有在關注的國際賽事啊你們要不要先列個名單出來可不可以列出來給我"},{"start":4494.639,"end":4495.179,"text":"第二十四條之一條文草案案 。"},{"start":4517.814,"end":4542.552,"text":"其實我們應該要來思考像電競運動一樣也應該要能夠被補助不管你是身體的電競還是雙手的電競這個國際其實都範圍是非常廣的三個月時間過去請問體育署的補助標準目前研議的進度如何報告委員其實我們當時就有回答就是說基本上電競選手是我們亞運的項目亞運的種類所以在我們亞奧運的選手我們基本上是一致公平的對待的所以現在就是還是沒有要"},{"start":4542.972,"end":4544.693,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":4568.55,"end":4596.028,"text":"沒有關係我想我們今天所有的社會都會有公平啦電競的比賽台灣的選手不斷的拔得頭籌得冠軍然後我們現在體育署的反應是說我們就等亞奧運我們不做任何積極的這些討論比方說像賽車之前有羅廷偉委員在報賽車我們有國手啊我們就是用比方說我們有媒合平台我們來幫忙一起號召社會大眾一起來做贊助這件事情我們目前是積極在做啦"},{"start":4597.109,"end":4624.27,"text":"所以就交給社會踢皮球踢給社會我這張圖我就不換了所以說有太多的運動賽事了啦所以我們目前的確是以澳亞運為主還有世界運動沒關係我們幫你們再踢一顆球啦就是說黃牛的事情不好意思跟主席再借一點時間請教市長啦黃牛的這個問題全台灣都非常關注尤其運動賽事我先恭喜最近台灣運動賽事越來越熱門非常非常的活躍那請教市長您認為打擊黃牛最有效的手段到底是什麼"},{"start":4628.004,"end":4632.905,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":4651.069,"end":4666.686,"text":"但是我看其實你們的答覆確實是這樣你們說這個不是適合每一種事件但是其實你們針對實名制的回覆其實你們又說是鼓勵推動實名制你們還有在研擬補助實施計畫的草案"},{"start":4667.307,"end":4668.208,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具 «運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":4689.707,"end":4708.383,"text":"我們現在草案已經送到那個基金管理委員會通過之後就可以實施好我想接下來這個黃流這個會因為體育賽事越來越熱門一定會蠢蠢欲動可能會破壞我們購票的公平性甚至影響我們運動產業的發展補助計畫既然已經延誼半年而且你們剛剛也說已經快要上路了"},{"start":4708.803,"end":4723.429,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":4734.315,"end":4740.42,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":4753.373,"end":4753.893,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":4768.524,"end":4775.847,"text":"對這就是我們今天要討論的昨天藍鞋還說要用激勵掌心的方式發給每位女籃球員的2000元等於說他在補足這個茶餌一樣是5000塊但是署長如果這個這樣子的說法跟相較於說一樣出賽費這樣是5000塊這個很難嗎"},{"start":4787.432,"end":4788.393,"text":"三條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":4801.991,"end":4812.477,"text":"當然你說的沒有差是說反正就是一樣是給五千那其實出殺費的這個差異呢藍協他們宣稱說是沒有對這些女的女藍是有沒有歧視的他覺得是一樣的其實他們一開始討論的時候其實並沒有納入女藍那後來藍藍他說主動將家跟女藍來起頭其實這樣子的說法我覺得是非常的荒腔走板"},{"start":4824.924,"end":4826.424,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":4846.309,"end":4847.29,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":4864.901,"end":4893.334,"text":"報告委員其實我在私底下勢力真的很多啦說實在當然我還是要先說明前面四次球員公會跟藍鞋在談的時候的確前面四次先著重在男子隊這部分那還沒談到女子隊那雙方就談判就先暫停了所以他們的確藍鞋這塊有一個既有的一個這種不正確的觀念所以有常常發生但是我們在第一時間就已經要求一定要改正這件事情"},{"start":4894.011,"end":4905.742,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":4920.675,"end":4948.282,"text":"有怎樣的方式可以去改善它?你們用這樣的方式可以去提醒它應該要改善?其實八五委員除了八五委員之外第二個其實就是教育啦因為這是根本的觀念上的一個改善這是長期以來我們的確一直要去跟協會講在男女生的不管是他出場費也好或是他整個比賽的準備的待遇甚至他的選訓選拔還有比賽的項目其實我們在世界上的目前的潮流就是希望男女生這部分是能夠一致的"},{"start":4948.422,"end":4949.063,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等"},{"start":4963.624,"end":4964.325,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘"},{"start":4993.904,"end":5008.597,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":5018.218,"end":5020.381,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":5036.84,"end":5060.939,"text":"選訓爭論國家隊的部分甚至基層的培訓潛優我們一直都是很支持但是我想可能還沒有找到對的方法那我們這邊我們持續再來鼓勵他們其實我這邊真的覺得說經過這麼多次的事件我真的看不到說體育署針對單項協會的改革從足協拖欠薪資到這次這個出賽費的這個事情其實體育署如果你們一直只是站在單項協會的角度來處理"},{"start":5063.061,"end":5063.922,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":5080.071,"end":5105.245,"text":"我們一直期待可以將體育署升為運動部所以我們希望有更多的資源來照顧這些運動員我們也希望把台灣打造為對運動員友善的一個環境加上其實八年奧運在即喔全國的民眾的目光都會專注的就是投注在我們體育署如何對待我們的國手以及他們的福利所以這邊我希望體育署你們要加把勁喔好接下來我要請教我們署長喔"},{"start":5105.925,"end":5134.068,"text":"一百一十二年度的動資券從去年的六月一號開始領取,在今年的六月三十號抵用截止。那根據體育署的統計,可以領券的人數大概是一百五十五萬人,但是領券人數只有八十八萬人,差不多只有五成多一點。那實際使用的人數是五十五萬人,使用率只有百分之三十五點五。那次長跟署長您覺得對一百一十二年度的動資券的執行成效你們滿意嗎?"},{"start":5135.188,"end":5135.829,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":5160.427,"end":5162.568,"text":"三條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5190.854,"end":5206.281,"text":"我們在下半年度我們有沒有針對動資券的這個推廣呢有演繹怎樣設計的方案?報告委員其實我們在掙扎一件事情就是我們當時的立場是說鼓勵去做運動看比賽那文化券其實他們可以去買書那我們的東西能不能去買運動用品"},{"start":5207.982,"end":5210.325,"text":"第二十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":5226.684,"end":5254.913,"text":"教育部在112學年度下學期有在42所的高中試辦的身心調試假那一個學期之後呢決定在8月1號來上路那我想請教市長在試辦階段有沒有遇到什麼問題遇到什麼問題都還好吧就是都還好所以才上路好那我們8月1號要上路的這個請假規定呢有沒有就是以試辦階段各方意見來進行調整還是照原來的還是有調整"},{"start":5256.018,"end":5257.379,"text":"條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具〈運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":5272.312,"end":5272.752,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":5302.412,"end":5318.676,"text":"二條之二條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":5324.198,"end":5324.718,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":5358.135,"end":5359.236,"text":"第二十四條之二條文草案。」案。"},{"start":5374.225,"end":5375.567,"text":"三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5389.941,"end":5391.002,"text":"三條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":5406.897,"end":5414.161,"text":"三條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之一條文修正草案：一"},{"start":5435.905,"end":5436.888,"text":"五十條之一條文草案案。"},{"start":5444.946,"end":5446.367,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具〈運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之〉"},{"start":5474.341,"end":5474.921,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":5496.091,"end":5506.056,"text":"三條之一條文草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":5522.143,"end":5538.29,"text":"這一次我想要問一下就是在我們的這個體育署所長他們所長你之後當然這個事後其實你也做了一些解釋了那我想問的是除了這一次我們會補足這兩千塊錢讓它變成所謂的齊頭式的一個平等但這個我剛剛聽到您覺得補這兩千塊進去其實跟原本我們在預想的其實你說是沒有差別的但對我來講其實差別很大"},{"start":5551.016,"end":5551.516,"text":"三條之一條文草案 案"},{"start":5567.649,"end":5590.692,"text":"所以事實上這個事情發生之後我也主動跟署長講說怎麼會發生這樣的狀況那署長跟我說他已經發表聲明了就是說已經表達對這個立場因為藍協畢竟是民間團體但是他是國家重要比賽的一個國際窗口他常常要辦一些國際賽事那他用這樣的態度其實相當程度反映的是不平等的觀念所以我記得今天運動產業發展條例裡面"},{"start":5592.213,"end":5598.498,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12"},{"start":5618.454,"end":5634.732,"text":"所以我覺得這個運動平權是國際的潮流所以我們國內目前要升格做體育部我們以這樣子的規格在推動國家的運動賽事我相信所有的單項協會也必須要有這樣子的一個價值觀念"},{"start":5634.972,"end":5635.532,"text":"第二十四條之"},{"start":5651.318,"end":5678.615,"text":"好那今天時間關係接下來我想要問一下就是我們在教育部的體育署我們在補助學推動學校的體育尤其是選手們他們這個所謂的移地的訓練的部分那這一塊我想有很多的我們收到有很多的這個學校對我們的一些反應甚至選手自己來跟我們的反應說我的選項是不是不要只有中國或者是有沒有其他的一些選項可以來做這個移地的一個訓練"},{"start":5679.495,"end":5679.935,"text":"二條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5701.724,"end":5730.863,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案 案件,並不可能由中央或地方政府並列一個預算來支持所有的運動團隊都做這種集訓跟國內外的一地訓練。坦白講我會覺得這個基層的運動還是需要很多企業界或者家長會的支持。在國外其實它的那個運動團隊在高中以下很多都是這種社團的俱樂部的,它會很多家長的支持會很多民間的支持。"},{"start":5731.423,"end":5732.043,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之"},{"start":5755.353,"end":5767.317,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":5785.763,"end":5808.608,"text":"最後來我問一下就是說在我們的這個運動產業的發展捐款的部分那大家都知道台灣的科技產業其實是真的非常非常的不錯但是問題是我們看到了是金融保險業他們的捐款是佔第一名但我們的科技製造業反而不是那這個部分我在想是不是跟我們的這個所謂的"},{"start":5811.044,"end":5831.52,"text":"基本所得稅額有一些些的關係。」我舉例來講,這邊我是特別舉例,比方說B公司他賺了一千萬,他的成本是五百萬,如果依照二十六之二的這個條例來看,這個他捐款兩百二十三萬,就是一百五十趴的一個認列,那他等於就是"},{"start":5832.501,"end":5834.703,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等一、審查委員林德福等一、審查委員林德福等一、審查委員"},{"start":5862.781,"end":5863.262,"text":"三條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5880.934,"end":5881.275,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":5904.557,"end":5931.125,"text":"科技產業的出口占台灣的這個種子這麼大可是為什麼都是金空在支持所以我想這部分假如我們能夠當然還沒升格前我們當然也可以遇過透過一些跨部會的一個協調比如說科技部國科會或者是其他的這個經濟部這邊能夠來協助我們來接觸我想很多科技產業他們大概也願意支持只是沒有一個管道"},{"start":5931.425,"end":5932.606,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":5960.745,"end":5961.946,"text":"四、審查委員林德福等19人擬具〈運動發展部組織圖〉草案。"},{"start":5982.489,"end":6004.344,"text":"我時間有限部長我想這個就是目前坦白講是從原來體育署的架構裡面然後特別把全民運動跟運動產業的部分把它抽出來另外運動產業除了行政體系的師或署之外當時的規劃那麼希望能夠成立更靈活的一個法人性質的國家運動產業發展中心"},{"start":6007.306,"end":6022.035,"text":"從這裡看出來就是我們升格之後很大的兩個部分就是除了原來的體育運動之外我們希望在運動產業的鼓勵就是剛才很多委員都關心到的那另外呢就是全民運動的普及化就是我們現在因為運動產業市場規模小"},{"start":6024.416,"end":6024.936,"text":"四、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":6044.329,"end":6045.129,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":6072.136,"end":6072.436,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之"},{"start":6091.091,"end":6091.391,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":6106.024,"end":6128.356,"text":"我讓次長講了這麼多時間是因為我想要讓大家也聽一聽看起來次長對這件事情確實是有掌握的而且也是由您的價值跟想像在裡頭對嗎由您在過去擔任立委期間其實你一直都非常關心體育運動我想很多關心體育運動的委員包括你在場大概都大家知道說這部分我們升格之後希望在這部分能夠加強"},{"start":6129.497,"end":6146.819,"text":"但是這個加強目前我們面臨一些實質上的困難在還沒有深刻之前我們來看下一頁其實這個組織文化一直是我們在告訴體育署他們我認為體育署自己也知道面臨很大的困境就是組織文化不只是來自體育署內部還有更多是來自外部整個體育界的氛圍"},{"start":6147.62,"end":6173.862,"text":"每一次我們只要到教文來執行體育署得到的回應狀況我常常自己都會冒出這個問號怎麼說呢我來舉一些例子跟次長分享第一個在我們6月12號的質詢我們提了很多問題這個問題是在體育署補助的賽事現場竟然看到了有性騷行為人來當工作人員這個我不知道次長您記不記得或是署長您記不記得那網友也有很多討論甚至這個事情我在質詢台上也問過體育署我們來看下一個"},{"start":6174.662,"end":6189.948,"text":"還有談過這個北部球隊的教練不當的體罰對待選手而且不是只有在高職甚至在國中端眼一樣次長我們今天不一個一個case來因為這些全部都是我講過這樣這些都有在處理對可是已讀不回就是對已讀不回真的不知道為什麼再來一樣同一場質詢我談到大仁國中一樣目前我們收到狀態我覺得是石沉大海"},{"start":6196.65,"end":6222.183,"text":"次長您過去擔任委員多年關心基層教育文化你自己覺得看到你的質詢被這樣對待我們怎麼看待這些處理的緩慢我剛說也許不見得全部都是體育署內部的問題整個體育界外部文化的問題至於我們在行政機關上我們到底還能夠做哪些事情在我關心體育的這一年多當中喔就是進到立法院工作之後我常常在網路上看很多網友的發言我覺得大家一直在問一件事情"},{"start":6222.503,"end":6223.123,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":6242.908,"end":6270.933,"text":"這只是我舉了其中幾個現象來看下一頁四月十八號我們一樣有質詢這個案子已經追蹤超過半年以上我們問體育署為什麼這個人他可以在他是違反兒少法而且列入那個49條的公告資料庫裡面但是他繼續在體育署主辦的賽事現場大搖大擺主持會議體育署給我們的說明沒有清楚的說明你給我們的回覆叫做無法一一說明而且體育署補助照給比賽照辦下一頁"},{"start":6272.244,"end":6273.825,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":6287.737,"end":6288.037,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":6304.602,"end":6305.222,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":6326.772,"end":6326.972,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":6343.659,"end":6344.419,"text":"四、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":6359.884,"end":6362.046,"text":"三條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之"},{"start":6384.045,"end":6407.677,"text":"因為面臨升格的壓力還有奧運的籌辦那現在有很多的事情包括今天要審的運動產業發展條例我想我們都非常認真的在面對開過好幾次會那我個人也不會因為說以前當委員這樣主張然後當了這個次長之後負責體育署我就改變立場事實上剛才我也跟誠實的跟大院報告運產條例26條之二當年我主張250%後來只有通過150%看到"},{"start":6412.379,"end":6425.534,"text":"現在有委員提出來我也是說一定支持可是事實上政府是一個團隊它是涉及到財政部的一些立場那當年在協調的時候那未來在協商的時候那我們都希望說繼續再爭取"},{"start":6427.196,"end":6427.897,"text":"四、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":6444.206,"end":6465.525,"text":"對,還有就是就官方來說是態度跟回應的問題可是就我們站在民間我們來看是整個體育文化要改變的問題喔如果現在在這些位置上的我覺得在這個位置上的大家如果都願意相信體育可以往更文明更現代化的腳步去走絕對對未來的整個台灣體育發展才是好事甚且劉伯鈞都還提醒我們不要再講體育了要講運動"},{"start":6467.086,"end":6467.627,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":6487.606,"end":6501.797,"text":"我會督促來如此來做那尤其是針對兒少跟運動員權益的部分如同您說的常常一個事情就上新聞那次長你一定知道新聞為什麼要報因為大家在意兒少議題大家在意運動員的權益而不應該只有很多組織的問題被解決運動員權益的問題非常重要"},{"start":6504.799,"end":6505.919,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":6539.702,"end":6540.023,"text":"三條之一條之一條。"},{"start":6552.745,"end":6553.225,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":6572.47,"end":6593.06,"text":"如果藍鞋建議女藍沒搶,出場費五千塊,工會會不會認為不公平呢?男藍比賽票房比較好,出場賽事多,應該高於女藍的五千才合理啊。」所以我想這到底就讓我們可以非常清楚的知道說,也許我們的藍鞋在這件事情上面並沒有正確的理解所謂的同工同酬這件事情,性別平等這個問題。"},{"start":6595.262,"end":6596.302,"text":"三條之二條之二條之三條之"},{"start":6618.103,"end":6641.831,"text":"我們可以看見在這件事情上藍鞋的性別意識不足那運動賽事本來就受到了所謂的性別刻板印象的一個限制所以女性相比男性是更不易親近體育的相關活動那在CCTO這個消除對女婦女一切形式的歧視公約其實有特別的針對女性的一些運動生活的參與必須要備以保障"},{"start":6642.955,"end":6661.821,"text":"例如說我們必須要積極的參與運動和體育的機會是要相等的以及在第十三條參與娛樂生活運動和文化生活各個方面的權利也是必須要去相等的那在2019年呢其實美國女主也曾經提起訴訟告美國的主總因為制度的性別歧視等等等等來"},{"start":6663.106,"end":6681.455,"text":"三條之一條文草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":6681.975,"end":6694.856,"text":"所以在我們最近也剛審查完這個國民體育法我們其實就有講這個性別就是當時大家都非常一致的支持就是要強調這個所謂的性別平等的參與"},{"start":6696.86,"end":6697.361,"text":"第二十六條之"},{"start":6713.407,"end":6714.848,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":6731.927,"end":6737.193,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文"},{"start":6753.994,"end":6765.174,"text":"對,好,所以齁,這個部分,這個大概是什麼,我們有沒有規劃一個預計的時程,什麼時候會來跟各單項協會來確認他們落實呢?在稍後。報告委員,至少目前為止在"},{"start":6767.092,"end":6767.593,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":6786.247,"end":6786.507,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":6807.708,"end":6808.428,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":6829.687,"end":6856.227,"text":"方委員其實雖然我們是大力支持協會來舉辦國際賽會但其實如果您看我們體育署所做的不管是男子運動員女子運動員在各項的補助賽事的支持我們其實是朝向平等這樣來進行但的確啦藍協在出賽費這一次他們的自籌款裡面的這些出賽費這部分的確有非常不好的一個示範那這部分我們我相信其他協會都看到了啦所以這部分我們會持續來呼籲"},{"start":6861.172,"end":6869.895,"text":"提議署提出《國家代表運動權益保障法》的報告有提到在第四、四、五月有大概兩次諮詢會議,其實裡面有針對出場費的問題有做一些討論。所以有關單項協會與運動員間的一個協議範本,我們預計什麼時候可以提供給大眾來了解呢?"},{"start":6879.158,"end":6879.618,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":6895.327,"end":6909.787,"text":"所以文化預計有什麼時候要推出這個公報?因為談判這種事情是雙方的,取決於雙方的態度跟技巧跟處理的態度。這部分我實在是沒有辦法給委員一個非常明確的時間,但是我們一直持續在督促他們一定要繼續執行。"},{"start":6911.129,"end":6911.469,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":6942.05,"end":6958.352,"text":"這部分我們會持續的努力。事實上我們對於公會不管是縣市的公會、球類、種類的公會我們是在它的業務費整個它的公會的籌組、業務進行、它在法治教育等等我們其實是相當會支持的啦。"},{"start":6959.329,"end":6959.789,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":6989.589,"end":6991.61,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":7012.56,"end":7013.22,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":7028.905,"end":7046.098,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":7047.423,"end":7049.044,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":7076.411,"end":7076.651,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":7100.807,"end":7124.947,"text":"首先跟次長討論一下就是一個國小教學組長的心聲根據現在國家語言發展法我們本土語言已經正式納入國高中的正式課程那國小也要修習這個本土語那本席當然非常支持說我們推廣本土語因為語言是文化的載體跟靈魂母語一旦斷了文化就會滅"},{"start":7125.748,"end":7134.874,"text":"三條之二條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":7153.866,"end":7171.333,"text":"一條文修正草案案案件 令家長覺得學賽德克語很特別,於是他就會讓他孩子去學賽德克語。當然學多種語言是好事,可是家長如果用那種所謂第二跟第三外語的心態請孩子去選,那可能就會造成學校的教學組長很大的困擾。再者,我們如果修了某種語言一年後,"},{"start":7176.815,"end":7177.416,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":7192.816,"end":7200.467,"text":"也不見得有任何的老師來主動應徵。學校都要千方百計地去打聽詢問拜託老師來,會造成整個教學組整個暑假都要找人。"},{"start":7208.118,"end":7209.739,"text":"第二十六條之二條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":7235.333,"end":7235.553,"text":"三條之二條之二條之"},{"start":7250.953,"end":7275.811,"text":"那我覺得這也不是一間學校遇到的狀況所以教育部不曉得有沒有注意到這樣的狀況那教育部要怎麼協助來減輕學校這些教學單位的壓力那我是重申啦學習本土語非常的重要那如果教育部可以配合家長來開放語言的選修就要確保有完整多元而且有效的師資跟機制那這部分"},{"start":7276.371,"end":7277.272,"text":"三條文修正草案案案"},{"start":7292.461,"end":7312.118,"text":"其實他這個多語言的學習其實是國家政策那我們目前為止也知道說可是在這個狀況下我們討論過大院討論過好幾次是這問題怎麼來所以事實上教育部也研發了各種教材各種語言都有透過那個遠距教學的那個教材所以"},{"start":7312.498,"end":7329.623,"text":"四、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案�"},{"start":7340.706,"end":7353.273,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條"},{"start":7370.183,"end":7396.573,"text":"所以一年可以讓他有興趣所以一年就可以轉換這個政策還是要繼續這個東西就是說讓他接觸有興趣然後以後他遇到這個語言的時候他會有一個入門我可以自己去學習就幫他開啟一個學習之門的開始打開這樣子大概是不會要求說我們要考試要考得很嚴格要做語言的這個程度的一個當然除非他很有興趣再去深化"},{"start":7397.793,"end":7402.717,"text":"那就是教學現場的這個困境,就請教部來協助。好,那我們今天回到今天的主題,就是運動產業那個發展條例喔。那本席對於這個職棒遷讀這個記憶猶新,也深深傷了我這個球迷的心。那當然我想我們花了十幾年的時間,又讓這個職棒重回榮景喔。"},{"start":7422.691,"end":7440.997,"text":"三條之二條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":7448.8,"end":7451.561,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":7477.947,"end":7482.272,"text":"那我想攔血跟直攔工會針對球員擔任國家隊出場費有長時間的討論那之前攔攔爭取出場費攔血的代表竟然說那打不好就不要講成這類的言論"},{"start":7495.285,"end":7495.825,"text":"第二十四條之"},{"start":7517.301,"end":7517.481,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":7532.278,"end":7532.798,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":7553.293,"end":7570.454,"text":"以後會不會說就是按照前例就女人的出場分是3000然後基金2000那我覺得這還是有點明目上雖然雖然總數是一樣的可是為什麼要用明目上不一樣來做來來來這樣的表達所以我覺得這件事情是不是嘿"},{"start":7571.234,"end":7593.622,"text":"對我想我再次表達對這個事情我表達遺憾就是說這個是非常不應該那體育署署長事實上第一時間他也表達聲明那後來藍協雖然是用又補了兩千但是他用的名義顯然還是不夠平等所以我會來跟體育署來研究我想這些單項協會都是國際運動的窗口"},{"start":7596.983,"end":7597.403,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":7613.208,"end":7626.8,"text":"三條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":7641.209,"end":7641.329,"text":"三條之二條之"},{"start":7665.111,"end":7665.211,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":7687.702,"end":7706.314,"text":"三條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條"},{"start":7721.067,"end":7723.11,"text":"二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":7730.763,"end":7751.277,"text":"四長好今年四月的時候我們在教文會那很多的委員都在關心就是去年在台北市發生一起幼兒園狼屍的性侵案那當時我們就要求教育部要去了解這個地方的主管機關就是台北市教育局在整個事件當中因為這個案發長達一年多的時間有沒有什麼樣的疏失以及後續的檢討"},{"start":7757.381,"end":7757.682,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":7775.728,"end":7776.749,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":7795.281,"end":7817.112,"text":"還對受害人拍攝了高達600多部的性剝削影像而這些受害人也就是幼兒園的學生也就是他們年紀都在3到5歲而已是這個新聞出來所有的家長聽到是更加的人心惶惶所以我先跟市長確認幾件事情就第一個這位老師被起訴了沒有"},{"start":7818.939,"end":7845.554,"text":"已經收押了對、羈押並且起訴再來第二個很多家人在問這個幼兒園到底哪一家還不公佈但是大家擔心的是來這個幼兒園現在廢了沒有啊已經廢紙了11年就廢紙了已經廢紙去年去年就廢紙我們已經是廢紙他的設立許可了再來這個幼兒園的負責人因為後來發現更可惡他就是這名狼屍的家長對"},{"start":7847.275,"end":7867.627,"text":"當中甚至有涉及接惑家長反應老師觸摸學童下體結果負責人沒有通報這個負責人以後還可不可以開幼兒園對他因為涉及到隱匿那時候調查完他也做了這個裁罰60萬而且終生不得在教保服務機構任職好那所以這是直寫嗎"},{"start":7868.667,"end":7887.862,"text":"現在至少我們確保這一名藍絲以及這個幼兒園現在不存在這個世界上不會再造成立即的危害而相關的刑責我們一定要司法要來嚴懲但是呢從發生之後就不斷的跟台北市教育局我看你們的這個檢討報告有兩點今天就想要請教次長兩點你們檢討第一個是說在事件調查當中因為當時很多家長在問那時候我也在台北市議會"},{"start":7897.91,"end":7904.553,"text":"三條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":7924.773,"end":7951.722,"text":"然後再來第二個就是在司法調查期間這一位老師他應該依法是要停職的但是當時沒有做是等到他被羈押了才帶走才解職如果他在一年前第一次報案的時候因為報案就是司法調查就開始了不需要等到起訴就依法來停職的話我們可以我們真的是可以免去"},{"start":7955.265,"end":7970.584,"text":"三條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":7974.449,"end":7986.023,"text":"三條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":7987.312,"end":7994.599,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":8014.257,"end":8029.435,"text":"這個情況非常嚴重啦委員都非常關心我們也會來積極調查這處理的過程裡面有沒有涉及為師的部分好那再來就是今天我們修法因為是委員提案版本要來修運動產業發展條例那我也相當的支持裡面涉及到了國營失業應該要幫球員來投保勞健保"},{"start":8031.978,"end":8041.783,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":8058.412,"end":8062.675,"text":"發生有出廠費同工不同從的情況。」剛剛市長也已經提到說你們第一時間就要求這個藍協應該要來改正。那這個事件我希望不要當成一個個案來看待。對,報告委員剛才我也提到說第一個對這個事情再重申我們非常非常的遺憾而且也不認為這是正確的做法然後立即由署長發表聲明"},{"start":8080.268,"end":8080.848,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":8102.122,"end":8109.944,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬"},{"start":8131.271,"end":8132.872,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":8153.206,"end":8162.894,"text":"我們要把它制度化我想今天討論我們可以好好來討論我想方向都是一樣的我們都希望來協助這些台灣的運動產業去職業運動產業還沒有那麼蓬勃的時候我們希望這些球員工會能夠更健全發達好那等會進主條的時候我們來詳細討論再來是這個上個週末我有邀請體育署長來到萬華參加我這個民間舉辦的街舞小學後我也非常的支持那我相信署長也看到這個街舞"},{"start":8181.809,"end":8183.13,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":8197.176,"end":8197.676,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":8224.406,"end":8226.087,"text":"三條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":8259.722,"end":8262.385,"text":"三條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":8270.388,"end":8272.711,"text":"二條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":8294.007,"end":8314.204,"text":"三條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之"},{"start":8315.264,"end":8337.184,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":8339.166,"end":8351.397,"text":"三條文修正草案 案 兩條文修正草案 案 三條文修正草案 案"},{"start":8356.101,"end":8379.375,"text":"三條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":8842.025,"end":8842.506,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會,然後請羅廷維委員質詢。"},{"start":8861.749,"end":8875.973,"text":"四、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例四、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例五、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例六、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例七、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例八、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例九、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例十、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條"},{"start":8889.057,"end":8903.661,"text":"三條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":8907.162,"end":8933.577,"text":"對對對對因為我記得一一他被接獲檢舉的時候當時第一次是不起訴嘛所以一二的七月的時候又再一次有人通報再一次啟動調查才斬獲了一些情資那有幾點我想我們都非常關心喔你的這一份報告裡面當中其實很重要因為你們調查結果有認定他有性侵的一個行為對吧"},{"start":8935.979,"end":8957.67,"text":"對那個是司法司法調查你們的行政調查我們認就是有看到那個司法調查報告對對那目前我們現在很擔憂的是因為光媒體的揭露啦其實這一個個案這一個行為人他只有去呃承認比較輕的行為比如說猥褻相關的一個行為"},{"start":8958.59,"end":8987.393,"text":"當然事後我想一切交給司法單位來做調查但是我們還是要再講的是包括其實很多的網友都在說因為兒少全法有規定媒體不能詳盡的報導狼屍及幼兒園相關的資訊造成我們111年到112年這一個過程當中雖然是不起訴但是許多的家長不知情導致陸續送援然後將孩童送入到狼屍當中"},{"start":8988.294,"end":8988.534,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":9006.517,"end":9016.663,"text":"三條之一條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":9033.712,"end":9060.455,"text":"我想從這個個案裡面這個過程裡面第一個發生通報的時候然後臺北市政府的行政介入跟司法介入的過程我們做一個盤點就了解然後呢我們也會檢討在中央跟地方通報上面那有沒有辦法可以再更緊密然後我們在法規的認知上剛好羅委員提到的怎麼會有家長這樣認為其實只要調查確定有這個行為那基於公益他是應該要公佈的"},{"start":9061.676,"end":9070.682,"text":"三條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條"},{"start":9085.692,"end":9085.972,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":9109.515,"end":9121.587,"text":"立法委員都很關心同工不同酬的一個問題那當時藍協的一個回應說男藍票房好場次多應該多於女藍才合理請問次長您認同這樣說法嗎"},{"start":9123.992,"end":9145.086,"text":"我覺得這是一個角度但是不是一個商業角度就是說我們還是應該重視到男女平權我剛才已經提過現在運動非常重視平權不是只有性別平權包括我們這個對奧運、帕運的規格越來越高就希望能夠促進平權的這樣的概念所以這種講法我個人不認同"},{"start":9145.626,"end":9156.124,"text":"好,那我想在這段時間呢體育署也做了許多的努力溝通齁但是藍鞋最新的一個回應為及時與教練團和女藍直接溝通以至於造成誤會請問一下是什麼誤會"},{"start":9158.469,"end":9176.75,"text":"這可能就是溝通上的問題吧就是溝通上的問題我想沒有誤會這就是我們看到結果了嘛那藍鞋現在表示出賽費這一塊體育署沒有補助是我們自籌發給男女藍的選手次長出賽費的爭議當初如果由體育署全額補助行不行"},{"start":9178.302,"end":9198.288,"text":"三條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":9206.491,"end":9206.832,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":9218.357,"end":9229.862,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":9245.208,"end":9246.829,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文"},{"start":9262.637,"end":9262.877,"text":"三條之二條之二條之"},{"start":9286.977,"end":9312.048,"text":"今天有版本談到運動產業發展租稅優惠的部分本期看了財政部與教育部的報告教育部的報告是說本部原則之詞為考量盈利事業租稅優惠提高捐贈金額減除額度的部分以及涉及稅負已與財政部言商財政部的報告是直接寫建議維持現行條文次長請問教育部原則之詞是指哪一塊"},{"start":9312.867,"end":9325.945,"text":"三條之二條之二條之三條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條之四條"},{"start":9326.773,"end":9345.19,"text":"當然我們現在的現行26條是規定是底稅是150%那因為我們版本有委員的版本蔡委員的版本是250%就是更提高那我也跟委員報告在上一屆上一屆運動產業發展條例在修法的時候也有各種版本有250%有200%最後是150%那當時財政部有他的立場跟考量"},{"start":9350.134,"end":9354.407,"text":"所以我想請問一下教育部跟財政部雙方有沒有就今天委員的版本開過會去討論有嗎?"},{"start":9358.581,"end":9387.089,"text":"目前還沒有因為我們接到當然委員版本提出來有一段時間但是之前有協調過那目前我們有請財政部一起過來後續是不是有機會去了解一下各委員的一個版本然後內部做一個溝通發布會的一個溝通因為今天是省委員的版本我們都尊重方向一致我們可以接受的就接受那有需要做文字調整我們就做文字調整那副組長主管機關表態支持請問能給予什麼樣的一個支持呢"},{"start":9390.35,"end":9406.224,"text":"條文室實施兩年多,我們是覺得有看到成效,我們建議再多觀察。好,那這個我們都希望能夠促成,那也希望這個加緊腳步,你們內部的能夠做跨部會的一個溝通。就體育署的立場,我想問體育署署長,您怎麼看待這次質然合併失敗的結果?"},{"start":9412.829,"end":9413.77,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":9436.178,"end":9461.183,"text":"我想林書豪曾經在訪談過有提到這個說法他說籃球產業要發展首先要最好的環境最好的球員這樣的前提是所有的聯盟可以結合在一起集中資源喔籃球行業才會賺錢如果不賺錢產業的發展上限就會非常的低我們希望這段話跟署長分享我們一起來努力讓我們的籃球產業越來越好也有賴於你更有智慧的溝通協助那幫忙整合好嗎署長這我會努力的好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":9477.551,"end":9485.399,"text":"二條之一條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":9500.212,"end":9502.673,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":9523.304,"end":9536.121,"text":"這個違反法律的問題啊性別平等工作法第十條僱主對受僱者薪資之幾付不得因性別或性傾向而有差別待遇請問次長這個應該是去說薪資吧"},{"start":9540.421,"end":9540.561,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":9559.326,"end":9578.594,"text":"你們跟中華奧會2010年簽署了這個相關的國際運動宣言裡面講到資源權利和責任的分配應公平不得有性別歧視但分配應改正男女在福利方面的任何失衡署長你知道簽過這個東西嗎?"},{"start":9580.592,"end":9587.736,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之"},{"start":9605.065,"end":9607.692,"text":"對報告委員我們剛才已經有提到了這個案例會讓我們將來對這些單項協會在補助款的時候我們會用"},{"start":9612.523,"end":9614.304,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":9640.74,"end":9641.862,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":9656.824,"end":9670.233,"text":"三條之二條之一條文草案：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人�"},{"start":9687.224,"end":9687.404,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":9716.864,"end":9717.465,"text":"第二十四條之"},{"start":9733.402,"end":9734.383,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":9749.119,"end":9759.345,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案�"},{"start":9778.197,"end":9780.059,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":9795.397,"end":9817.969,"text":"一年半一年半已經不短了您前面我們都不忍心把體育中都問題這協會當然有些協會可能很不錯可是單向協會的弊病這個我還沒當立委就聽過了對不對那您前面沒有署長我們就不忍心就是要次長兼署長的時候處理那您到現在我想請問你你花多少時間跟協會講話你花多少時間問選手的意見"},{"start":9822.811,"end":9823.893,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":9837.688,"end":9838.008,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":9858.932,"end":9862.654,"text":"公會的事情我從10年、11年、12年、13年都要求體育署要去鼓勵因為教育部的議題太多了我要講句說我這次質詢前把你們的回應看出來我真的覺得你們真的是輕忽我們立委的要求"},{"start":9879.122,"end":9884.304,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":9905.25,"end":9905.971,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":9926.149,"end":9926.509,"text":"三條之四條之五條之"},{"start":9944.332,"end":9960.762,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":9971.468,"end":9971.809,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之"},{"start":9986.072,"end":9997.202,"text":"我看到的是差不多一成一直都沒有成長我關心了這些年所以不要再給我文不對題的東西我今天就有個臨時提案你有沒有具體的方式你多少時間譬如說成長兩倍現在百分之十多少時間變百分之二十那你就要去輔導那些還沒有工會的不是說補助給已經有工會的做個翻譯就叫做你的業績然後勞動部做什麼好不好"},{"start":10009.233,"end":10010.394,"text":"三條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":10036.578,"end":10036.999,"text":"三條之一條之一條"},{"start":10044.633,"end":10070.482,"text":"來 謝謝委員次長、署長我覺得今天從早到晚我們繼續還是要再罵這件事情喔也就是說我們現在看到的窮是被男女賽的出場費的不同喔那最嚴重的我看到藍鞋竟然在這件事情發生之後啊他有一個聲明不知道次長跟署長有沒有看到他說出賽費不只是男女平等的問題實質平等是容許事物本質不同的差別待遇這到底在講什麼鬼啊"},{"start":10071.002,"end":10088.613,"text":"對阿其實這句話在講什麼鬼阿對其實我已經剛才提過說我非常不能認同生表遺憾然後也要求體育署第一時間發表我覺得非常的離譜啦那但是剛才我不知道我沒有誤會到署長的意思喔那因為剛才講說就是五千塊跟三千加兩千是一樣的"},{"start":10089.994,"end":10090.574,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":10105.543,"end":10105.703,"text":"條文草案 案 。"},{"start":10134.697,"end":10135.358,"text":"第二十四條之"},{"start":10151.852,"end":10152.332,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":10171.872,"end":10172.552,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":10199.83,"end":10200.471,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":10226.092,"end":10226.772,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":10243.117,"end":10244.057,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":10261.444,"end":10281.605,"text":"三、審查委員陳曉就看到一百一十二年應該有一百五十五萬名的青年是符合資格的可是實際領取只有八十一萬人二分之一那麼領取了以後使用的人數更少只有五十五萬人只有達到符合資格青年的三分之一而已所以領用使用率都低這是什麼原因"},{"start":10283.055,"end":10301.928,"text":"我請署長來回答?可以。保委員這部分我們的確我有看到問題我們在高中大學階段特別高中學生都仰賴學校的體育課但在他整個運動的部分的確需要加強那往未來這部分的確是我們必須要面對從根本上去處理才有辦法去讓這個青春動作卷"},{"start":10302.148,"end":10302.848,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":10318.733,"end":10320.495,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":10347.637,"end":10359.737,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：立法院第11會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文修正草案：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例"},{"start":10361.544,"end":10390.04,"text":"好,那我們再來看現在我們有一個第二次的發放就是現在正在做4億的預算那這個使用的期限是1月到12月的今年符合資格我們看到150萬人但是到6月30號半年的時間過去了李德仁只有40萬人只有符合資格的四分之一我們是不斷的退步也就是說我們這個常態性要發放的青春動資券不斷的退步而且使用的人數李德仁使用的人數只有25萬人六分之一"},{"start":10390.64,"end":10391.861,"text":"所以目前執行預算只有一億出頭一點點執行率28%其實可以說成績是非常差為什麼"},{"start":10398.809,"end":10408.157,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等"},{"start":10421.988,"end":10427.032,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例四、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例五、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例六、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條"},{"start":10450.771,"end":10451.131,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":10474.025,"end":10474.165,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":10487.448,"end":10516.005,"text":"我想我們現在就是已經在請地方政府來算就剛才有委員提到說有的孩子他沒有喔次長這不好意思打斷您一下現在是教育部是就一紙公文下去只是要地方政府說你要統計一下數字回來給我那這個地方政府收到這個公文的時候其實也很困擾因為呢他把這個數字統計給你他到底要不要接受你這個政策接受以後有沒有會不會產生什麼問題點如何配送什麼時間點喝那安不安全這些東西你都沒有跟地方縣市政府溝通沒有跟學校端溝通啊"},{"start":10516.365,"end":10536.844,"text":"現在是行政院實案辦,因為那個發動是農業部,農業部的畜牧師,他那時候為了解決弱農過度生產的問題,不是過度生產,就是因為擔心那個關稅問題,所以他現在是他們這整個在主導,那我們也提出說我們必須要去調查分數,然後提供不喝牛奶的孩童有另外豆乳可以以來飲用"},{"start":10537.324,"end":10539.865,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具第12條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":10561.713,"end":10574.86,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例�"},{"start":10591.468,"end":10618.842,"text":"因為我想我們教育部最了解教育的體系嘛所以我希望喔這個能夠盡快最好能在七月底之前我不管是食安辦也好教育部也好農業部也好由教育部來主導去跟地方的教育局處首長還有學校做好溝通好不好好我們會協助一起辦理好好謝謝好謝謝好接下來呢我們就要處理臨時提案今天由委員提出臨時提案計四案請宣讀"},{"start":10620.097,"end":10646.355,"text":"第二運動員工會是運動員權益之倡議先鋒提署應針對協助運動員組成工會提出具體鼓勵與協助措施並於一個月內明定未來推動運動員組工會之目標包括各年度應輔導成立運動員工會之目標值等以落實改善運動員勞動環境提案人范雲、連署人吳佩義、郭益晴"},{"start":10646.955,"end":10653.225,"text":"第二案。近期中華民國籃球協會和臺北市職業籃球員職業工會,針對出賽費進行協商,然而針對商業性直飛正式國際賽事部分,籃協表示願給籃籃選手每場五千元出場費,"},{"start":10662.739,"end":10686.786,"text":"全體委員提供女籃球員每巧三千元引發民眾質疑同工不同酬有違性別平等有鑒於此體育署因依國民體育法性別平等工作法與2014布萊頓與賀新芝女性與運動宣言之精神積極督導各特定體育團體建立實質平等支出賽費獎金與薪資等發放制度切勿讓類似爭議重演"},{"start":10688.807,"end":10717.74,"text":"並於兩周內提出書面報告提案人犯予無配意連署人郭益晴第三案本次中華藍鞋辦理瓊斯杯賽事出現出賽費男女差別待遇問題已明確違反教育部對於性別平等之核心價值予要求體育署未來應明確將不得有相關作為與人士參與體育署補助或委辦賽事作為追回行政給付之條件提案人曾賠予無配意"},{"start":10718.38,"end":10735.171,"text":"張雅琳第四案。針對體育署就體育部升格所舉辦之體育運動政策白皮書記體育運動發展部規劃論壇有介於已舉行完畢之場次均會由體育署官員在場致使民眾提問無法得到具體回應。"},{"start":10750.382,"end":10751.142,"text":"三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10767.123,"end":10780.71,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員陳培宇等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員陳培宇等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12"},{"start":10787.123,"end":10815.817,"text":"次長請說就是在最後一句最後第三行第二段的第三行原要求體育署未來亦明確將不得有把修正為違反核心價值人士擔任體育署補助或委辦賽事的工作人員作為扣減或追回該賽事一部或全部行政幾戶之條件"},{"start":10818.757,"end":10833.488,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條"},{"start":10850.703,"end":10861.33,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動"},{"start":10878.831,"end":10880.835,"text":"一、審查委員林德福等一、審查委員林德福等一、審查委員林德福等"},{"start":10887.748,"end":10908.482,"text":"單證體育署補助或委辦賽事的工作人員。好,我想要釐清一下,因為每次講到這所謂工作人員的定義,常常單項協會或者是體育署跟我們辦公室的解讀就會有很大的落差。我們是不是這邊可以釐清或是請署長說明,到底在您的認知當中或是在過往在體育署的補助或委辦賽事當中,什麼樣的人叫做工作人員?"},{"start":10909.162,"end":10937.84,"text":"或者是我們辦公室之前所有提出來這些有爭議的個案他們會不會又被你們說是顧問啊跟體育署的補助沒有關係那個是協會自己找的人啊這樣報委員我想第一個會務人員還有他的理監事顧問再來是理監事是指協會的理監事嗎當然是該協會就是那個主辦單位他的理監事他的顧問以及他的這個賽事的有拿薪資的工作人員因為會務人員不能拿薪資嘛"},{"start":10938.32,"end":10939.361,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":10961.923,"end":10963.224,"text":"三條之一條之二條之一條"},{"start":10986.488,"end":11012.943,"text":"作為追回行政起伏之條件。」一部或全部?一部或全部,那這個,好,當然當然當然,但是因為我們這個領題如果要處理這麼細緻,我可以追問嗎?所謂的一部是指多大一部?全部我當然可以理解,一部,這個裁量權是交給體育署嗎?還是我們可以明定至少二分之一或全部?"},{"start":11017.421,"end":11043.229,"text":"如果屬有一個裁罰的標準但是我很好奇就體育署的角度這個裁罰標準有機會量化或者是表格化說明嗎?這個可能牽涉到評議委員會類似這樣的機制去討論會比較合適因為樣態真的很多沒錯沒錯就是因為樣態很多我才不能接受所謂一部因為5%也可以是一部啊5%也可以是一部分嘛對不對"},{"start":11043.729,"end":11044.53,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之"},{"start":11057.183,"end":11059.284,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":11089.171,"end":11089.692,"text":"三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11110.515,"end":11111.195,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":11137.156,"end":11140.101,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":11151.049,"end":11151.329,"text":"三條之四條之五條之六條之"},{"start":11171.582,"end":11177.723,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文"},{"start":11200.348,"end":11202.43,"text":"第一、國家政策支持及協助、規模及選手、高度競技水準選手及具專業管理人力及運動商業操作經驗的團隊"},{"start":11225.232,"end":11237.496,"text":"第五、審查委員需要具備完整的賽事行銷包裝的能力跟傳播媒體的能力這是整個產業鏈第六、審查委員我們要具備有國際水準的運動場館及周邊設施所以才不會說我們要來舉辦賽事在這些設施上沒有辦法完備"},{"start":11248.78,"end":11275.381,"text":"第七條是要充沛的贊助、支援跟支援的環境這個我想大家應該都同意這個部分還不是很完整我們知道現在我們口號喊得很多但是執行上都感覺很無力所以希望體育署這邊能夠抱著做大事的積極心態來往這個部分促成這樣運動發展部未來我們才會比較有動能是的"},{"start":11276.441,"end":11288.427,"text":"接下來本席就針對本席在這個會期一開始很關心的這個運動的這個發展尤其是足球的這個部分這個足球就跟剛才本席所講的一定規模的這個選手還有一定規模的這個團體賽有關那這個會期一開始我其實問了有關於足球還有本席這個參與的帆船"},{"start":11298.132,"end":11310.116,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案�"},{"start":11325.402,"end":11330.793,"text":"那麼經費直接補助縣市政府進行籌辦那是不是要跟本席分享一下你們目前的進度"},{"start":11333.464,"end":11356.289,"text":"二條文修正草案 案。議員,其實這一塊我們當時也跟女足的部分球員有聊過,當然也跟工會在場的時候也談過,那我們不是不支持有更多隊伍,而是目前的確在市場上的女足的球員還是就是強度到那邊的球員還不過多,所以他們當然也擔心說你今天六隊變八隊,那這兩隊的強度"},{"start":11358.109,"end":11358.409,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":11374.66,"end":11375.341,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":11396.796,"end":11417.269,"text":"所以麻煩先公告周知那第二個部分呢是至於您講的這個程度上的問題他就跟整個這個女主委員在全球的全國的這樣子一個所謂流浪的狀況有點關係那接下來本席就要來談一下那這個部分呢是我們會這樣子做最主要是針對未來的世界盃"},{"start":11418.85,"end":11419.09,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":11441.425,"end":11455.915,"text":"三條之二條之一條文草案﹑一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案﹑一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案﹑一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案﹑一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案﹑一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案﹑一、審查委員林德福等19人"},{"start":11463.88,"end":11464.26,"text":"第二十四條之"},{"start":11487.31,"end":11514.177,"text":"我知道你們要去奧運了齁?那...那個...報告委員當然再稍微晚一點,這個真的,我們最近真的事情太多,我們真的全心全意放在奧運的選手跟排運選手身上。好啦,這個可以...那個挺亮的啦。各位委員,這個針對您關心的這個整個賽事的結構部分,我們之前的確有發生個案,那這部分我們的確有去做介入。那這部分我們在每個賽事結束之後,企業聯賽結束都有做一個總檢討,來做下一次的一個精進,這個我們都有去做介入啦。"},{"start":11514.377,"end":11530.742,"text":"三條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條"},{"start":11543.066,"end":11544.087,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":11561.06,"end":11562.48,"text":"第二十四條之一條文草案案案案。"},{"start":11585.505,"end":11589.548,"text":"九月初可不可以聯同國訓中心還有當時倡議的球員、工會辦公室召開相關的會議來做討論?接下來吳村城委員、葉元智委員"},{"start":11621.055,"end":11622.096,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":11633.174,"end":11657.839,"text":"剛聽您說現在全心全意都放在對於我們巴黎奧運選手的照顧現在天氣非常熱那我說有看到新聞就是說巴黎奧運的選手村他是沒有冷氣的他說他要環保用了一個什麼冷水的系統然後後來因為各國去抗議各國去反應所以又開放讓很多國家可以自備冷氣或自己調度冷氣然後讓選手來吹有這件事嗎"},{"start":11658.615,"end":11668.141,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":11686.192,"end":11699.837,"text":"三條之一條文草案：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12會期教育及文化委員柯志"},{"start":11711.882,"end":11713.003,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":11728.657,"end":11734.918,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":11755.282,"end":11760.266,"text":"三條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條"},{"start":11773.556,"end":11775.758,"text":"三條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之一條文"},{"start":11798.059,"end":11802.762,"text":"我們選手一定有,教練這邊也都會,但是我們這部分還在持續努力。"},{"start":11827.759,"end":11828.119,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具〈運動產業發展條例〉條例〉"},{"start":11847.819,"end":11868.219,"text":"但是比賽開始之後他們也是有回應但是女藍三千塊這件事情我強烈表達不滿所以呢他們目前是多給兩千但是在名詞上我們還是有歧視也不用你強烈表達不滿大家都覺得很怪嘛我現在問是說當初為什麼會這樣子考慮就是在談判過程還沒有談到那一塊就先暫停了啦"},{"start":11869.003,"end":11893.529,"text":"那一開始為什麼會這樣訂嘛?那一開始就沒有出賽費後來我們回應委員們的要求國體法的要求我們要求協會只要有收門票你一定要給出賽費所以他們開始談出賽費的金額金額多少是通過工會跟協會之間的談判過程不是啊那協會你自己都已經知道男子是爭取到五千那女生你為什麼不直接就五千呢?"},{"start":11893.769,"end":11894.39,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":11911.713,"end":11912.173,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":11937.025,"end":11937.405,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":11947.267,"end":11968.943,"text":"之前還在勞委會的時期87年有頒布過一個公告就是說下列以下各種行業是不適用勞基法用紅色圈起來用紅字的部分很多實際上已經後來有適用了包括像私立幼兒園等教師跟職員如果說我們現在球員要組工會的話請問一下勞動部它是什麼關係?聘僱關係嗎?"},{"start":11972.017,"end":11980.379,"text":"兩回事。那他需要適用勞基法嗎?我剛才有回答委員,就是說他有沒有適用勞基法跟他可不可以組工會其實是不相關的。只要他是勞工就可以組工會。那你會覺得說他需不需要適用勞基法不用?適用勞基法我們有一套審查標準。"},{"start":12000.407,"end":12008.165,"text":"我知道我現在就在問你嘛因為之前像施立佑志源等教師跟志源當時是為什麼沒有適用老計法後來為什麼又適用"},{"start":12010.617,"end":12038.857,"text":"我請我們相關單位回答一下。報告委員,我這邊是勞動部調評師。報告委員報告,就是我們當初87年在指定施用勞基法的時候,那時候有針對各個行業別有一些它在試用上有自在難行之處,那時候是有把它排除試用。那之後如果說有排除自在難行之處的理由已經消失的話,那我們就會適時的把它檢討,納入施用勞基法來保障勞工的權益。"},{"start":12040.078,"end":12052.736,"text":"那時候有一些自愛男型是什麼自愛男型可能要看各個那個類別像如果說像之前講那個私立幼稚園教室職員自愛男型的原因在哪裡"},{"start":12053.359,"end":12054.94,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":12074.409,"end":12084.394,"text":"對那後來可能因為就是可能一些勞工議事很有建議那覺得說應該還是要適用整個勞基法他的保障會更完善等等之類的那就會後續會進行檢討OK好好好謝謝"},{"start":12096.186,"end":12108.058,"text":"三條之二條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":12122.68,"end":12142.585,"text":"市長,恭喜你。我們看到近來我們的臺灣的團體職業運動的賽事非常蓬勃發展,尤其我們台中庫城市庫運動。但是我們看到也就是體育賽事相關的防堵法治機制是不是應當要更加的加強?請教。"},{"start":12145.463,"end":12146.164,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":12165.163,"end":12181.42,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具第12條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具第12條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具第12條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具第12條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具第12條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具第12條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具第12條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具第12條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具第12條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具第12條之三、審查委員林德福等16"},{"start":12188.207,"end":12214.245,"text":"現在我們是一個民主國家,對於兩性侵權是非常非常地重視,而且應當要給予尊重。那為什麼?因為一般在整個教育它是不分,那為什麼會產生這樣子的一個情勢?除了剛剛署長所回答的,你會積極地你給他抗議,所以再給他加兩千。我想我們的女人也不是kitty啊,不可以如此嗎?"},{"start":12215.086,"end":12219.29,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具 «運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":12238.547,"end":12251.25,"text":"三條之二條之二條之一條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條"},{"start":12263.593,"end":12284.002,"text":"第二件事情我們會新聞給各個協會要請他們說這個政策方案請到落實兩性這個平權的這件事情所以出賽費未來只要是國家隊它不是一個職業賽事它是一個國家隊的賽事它就應該要兩邊要同相同的出賽費這個觀念我知道目前在體育界的確有些落差那我們透過政策來做引導"},{"start":12284.682,"end":12291.004,"text":"所以這個政策已經要這麼執行嗎?我們也認為因為完善相關的職業或者是業餘的運動這些不管是防堵機制以及它的公平性"},{"start":12301.608,"end":12316.567,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":12317.508,"end":12340.521,"text":"所以這個部分請務必要做好我也希望你們運動署請你將防堵跟發展跟公平性的這些計畫詳實的書面資料給本席好那接下來本席要請教也就是在整個公平性當中你們也說了你們看到是必須要去提升的所以這一些不法的"},{"start":12341.441,"end":12352.786,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案�"},{"start":12368.072,"end":12369.553,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":12390.769,"end":12392.39,"text":"第二十六條之二條文草案案案案"},{"start":12417.059,"end":12436.308,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":12442.247,"end":12442.467,"text":"三、審查委員"},{"start":12459.369,"end":12464.471,"text":"三條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":12489.229,"end":12490.03,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之"},{"start":12510.509,"end":12511.41,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":12537.014,"end":12565.817,"text":"我們要跟著這樣國際時代的潮流你看銀超、西甲、德甲那個觀眾啊任何一場職業足球都是大概五、六萬人這個現在是歐洲盃嘛那歐洲盃你知道現在冠軍隊是哪一位嗎是哪一個國家抱歉不確定還沒比完當然不知道嘛"},{"start":12567.096,"end":12589.127,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人�"},{"start":12592.369,"end":12596.751,"text":"三條之二條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":12619.036,"end":12645.591,"text":"三條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":12648.547,"end":12649.388,"text":"三條之二條之三條之"},{"start":12659.787,"end":12676.87,"text":"二條文修正草案案 案 。議員,您認為這是總統的一個政策,那當然行政部門要盡快去執行。議員,我們在過去的運動產業部分的確相對保守,特別在足球的部分,所以這部分我們在接下來的體育部的組織的籌劃部分會針對運動產業這件事情能夠更務實面去跟產業這邊做結合。議員,八年奧運26號就要開幕了,那這個中華隊"},{"start":12690.047,"end":12691.989,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":12710.982,"end":12717.485,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":12740.365,"end":12747.047,"text":"三條文修正草案案案件 。接下來鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員王國昌委員"},{"start":12770.214,"end":12777.46,"text":"黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃"},{"start":12815.243,"end":12833.792,"text":"三條文修正草案 案 。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案 案 。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案 案 。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案 案 。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案 案 。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案 案 。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產"},{"start":12841.147,"end":12868.892,"text":"三條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":12872.871,"end":12873.872,"text":"三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12901.701,"end":12902.573,"text":"三條文修正草案。"},{"start":12931.286,"end":12933.468,"text":"三條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":12954.036,"end":12957.699,"text":"三條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12986.116,"end":12987.057,"text":"三條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":13018.139,"end":13046.54,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人�"},{"start":13048.17,"end":13071.145,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具第十四條之二條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具第十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具第十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具第十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具第十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具第十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具第十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具第十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具第十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具第十四條之三、審查委員林德福"},{"start":13074.481,"end":13075.662,"text":"三條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":13097.185,"end":13119.721,"text":"三條之二條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條"},{"start":13134.405,"end":13147.153,"text":"二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":13160.325,"end":13176.793,"text":"二條之二條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":13184.502,"end":13207.097,"text":"那我們現在就是來看一下陳培宇委員的七支一條來七支一條七支一條來要發言的委員來陳培宇委員張雅玲委員"},{"start":13211.544,"end":13227.597,"text":"三條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":13229.536,"end":13251.075,"text":"關於那個性別比例的問題我想次長一定非常清楚所以這個部分我們後續希望國營事業在新增球隊的時候要考量性別橫屏的原則那七之一的第二項這個寫法我知道我們彼此都花了很多時間討論可是我們其實之前也跑去那個跟經濟部還有財政部質詢過"},{"start":13253.096,"end":13275.23,"text":"事實上,勞務關係的判定主管機關並不是經濟部,也不是財政部,更不要再用合約名稱作為判斷基準。這一次我們辦公室提出來的修法是希望也協助,我再次強調是協助台皮跟台電在求對用人上的彈性。大家都知道台皮是因為公司捐助的協會,所以會適用採購法。"},{"start":13277.731,"end":13287.902,"text":"條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「"},{"start":13293.029,"end":13293.229,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13323.209,"end":13323.59,"text":"三條之一條文草案案。"},{"start":13340.846,"end":13341.807,"text":"二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12屆第12條之"},{"start":13357.369,"end":13359.63,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具第十四條之"},{"start":13381.547,"end":13407.833,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人�"},{"start":13409.008,"end":13410.049,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":13435.306,"end":13442.598,"text":"這個協會的運作其實球隊就是第一件事情是要拿冠軍。第二個就是"},{"start":13444.36,"end":13457.669,"text":"條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、"},{"start":13471.118,"end":13471.598,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":13485.953,"end":13504.003,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":13508.067,"end":13534.205,"text":"規用關係上會有我們有考慮到一些費用跟成本的增加的部分所以原則上陳委員已經很廣泛的跟協調大家所以我們今天原則上是說如果七至二條七至一條如果可以不修我們是建議不修但是如果有附帶的決議我們就照協商的那個內容我們尊重"},{"start":13534.505,"end":13535.666,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":13562.628,"end":13582.779,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之一條文修正草案案案件。netesa,我是非常支持這一條修法的精神,因為如果是我們自己國營事業的運動員就要當作我們的員工,如果沒有勞健保,這個我想是大家都沒有辦法認同。那如果說現在在實務上面,你們是說就算沒有修法,你們也能夠來,就是說未來能夠來提供我們的球員勞健保,是不是這個意思?"},{"start":13588.172,"end":13608.041,"text":"說明一下第一個是原來是我們的球員都會有勞健報只是因為有一些是屬於那種配合練習的練習生那過去是用委任關係就存在那現在我們會去向人事就是我們會向人事代會去爭取我們會爭取這個名額然後用這個就是勞動部可以接受的方式我們來處理這個問題"},{"start":13610.402,"end":13611.143,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":13633.484,"end":13633.684,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":13645.776,"end":13648.857,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條之"},{"start":13670.745,"end":13696.722,"text":"運動球隊的目的事業主管機關我們也會去檢視我們附帶決議成立之後我們所有的國營事業的企業球隊是否都有針對這個方式附帶決議來進行如果沒有的話我們一定會發文要求協調來協助以上好是不是陳培文有提到附帶決議我們是一併在這個地方來做一些處理好不好主席我可以回應一下剛剛他們三位的發言嗎"},{"start":13697.742,"end":13698.382,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":13722.534,"end":13722.754,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":13744.083,"end":13748.546,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":13776.465,"end":13777.146,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":13793.288,"end":13795.45,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":13815.27,"end":13830.7,"text":"二條之一條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":13838.444,"end":13851.389,"text":"二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":13862.834,"end":13883.513,"text":"目前我們提出來附帶決議請問各位可以接受的話我們就可以用這個版本通過所以目前我們的比較大的公約數就是我們第一項是保留大家都沒有意見但第二項來說的話我們是希望是教育部立場是免於增訂但是對陳培宇委員所提出的附帶決議你可不可以看一下條文可以接受嗎"},{"start":13885.609,"end":13888.411,"text":"最後一頁為保障國營事業及所補捐助成立之協會所管理之運動團隊球員之勞動權益"},{"start":13907.166,"end":13929.915,"text":"財政部與經濟部應針對臺皮籃球協會所轄球員及臺電娛樂會轄下之體育幹事部分於半年內以訂期契約的方式完成明載僱主之勞健保責任之合約修訂並不得藉此對球員有不利益的作為,必保障球員勞動權益。我想要說明一下為什麼會寫這句話"},{"start":13931.636,"end":13932.897,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":13961.052,"end":13984.032,"text":"後來有再加一段就是財政部與經濟部督導臺灣研究公司及台電公司有加這麼一段字我們現在講的是附帶決議喔?對不對?剛剛陳培利委員所念的那個"},{"start":13985.72,"end":13988.881,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文草案 案。」"},{"start":14019.577,"end":14021.879,"text":"第二十六條之一條文草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14041.338,"end":14047.003,"text":"現在的時空環境有顯著的變化為了釐清所謂職業運動業的適用範圍以明確相關運動產業從業人員之勞動保障與運動產業的實務需求我們要求體育署在三個月內邀請相關部會與單位共同會商並把相關定義提供勞動部與相關部會參考這個就是他們希望我們協助"},{"start":14063.197,"end":14064.258,"text":"三條之二條之一條文草案。」案。"},{"start":14086.57,"end":14089.553,"text":"第二項本文及第三項的規定,對於職業或業餘運動業及重點運動賽事主辦單位之捐贈金額加成減除的部分,應計入《營利事業之基本》所得額。"},{"start":14107.111,"end":14122.92,"text":"此舉造成體育署與產業界重大疑慮,有實質架空原先該條文的疑慮,原此請複稅署具體整理受此公告影響的捐贈狀況,僅因此公告被要求適用基本所得稅額的企業,提供教育文化委員會參考。"},{"start":14124.321,"end":14135.472,"text":"例如一年內邀請體育署及相關適用本法制營利事業單位及專家學者共同會商,討論有無必要暫緩實施相關公告,以為本條例修正是美意。」"},{"start":14151.553,"end":14152.534,"text":"三條之二條之二條之三條之四條"},{"start":14174.326,"end":14175.207,"text":"三、審查委員"},{"start":14201.781,"end":14202.281,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":14220.146,"end":14226.248,"text":"法律規定說有效稅率要繳到基本的12%那是企業有效稅率低於12%太低的關係才要去補到12%所以這個是法律的規定那這個規定其實並不是針對運動產業發展條例是所有其他促進產業發展的租稅優惠都要適用那當企業你適用很多的減免稅的規定以後以至於你的有效稅率低於12%的時候"},{"start":14249.654,"end":14277.353,"text":"才會被要求補到12%。」等一下等一下那我可以先補充回應負稅署我的寫法其實沒有那麼強硬我是最後一句話我說討論有無必要暫緩實施相關公告那當然就整個產業的影響我想請體育署說明謝謝我想這個案這個案子本來在這個抵稅條款本來就是希望給運動產業一個非常獨特的支持所以這部分並不是公平不公平的問題啦"},{"start":14281.016,"end":14300.244,"text":"主要是因為運動產業在台灣的規模都很小而且到目前能夠真的賺錢的職業運動很少所以我們一直希望說讓企業投注更多其實是對運動員有更好的環境不然你賠錢的公司運動員待遇怎麼會好所以我們希望用租稅"},{"start":14301.144,"end":14328.357,"text":"三條之二條之一條的優惠條件讓企業投入更多那球員勢必也不會因為這些產業只有運動沒有賺錢而那個福利被壓抑所以跟現在財政部講的說很多的產業在優惠的時候有很多稅的一個優惠這是事實但是運動產業是真的比較特殊所以因為它還沒市場的規模還沒到會賺錢所以我們當時才會希望這部分能夠讓企業"},{"start":14329.878,"end":14330.038,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":14356.295,"end":14357.516,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":14379.157,"end":14380.158,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":14399.881,"end":14400.221,"text":"二條之一條文草案案。"},{"start":14421.118,"end":14433.962,"text":"七之二的部分我看一下七之二部分陳培宇委員還有對目前是陳培宇還有附帶的決議有陳培宇委員的附帶決議好好謝謝那一樣啦是經過會前會討論所以才會講出附帶決議謝謝主席七之二的部分主要就是談運動員工會或者是團體啦齁那這個部分是希望肯定運動員團體或工會對於運動產業發展的貢獻"},{"start":14444.726,"end":14464.033,"text":"這個法的因為中央主管機關是教育部我們目前跟你們討論的結果我們可以接受的是把成立最後那兩個字拿掉可是我們希望政策上到底還有什麼積極的作為讓體育署不是都只站在協會跟企業的那一邊佩玉委員之前還有伊金委員很多質詢都有提到"},{"start":14464.853,"end":14488.352,"text":"那接下來往下看喔,第二,七至二這一條的第二項喔談到這個運動員工會團體承認輔導相關的費用我們知道你們告訴我們人事費啊、業務費這個部分可是我們這個部分是希望作為前項應輔導對象的明確定義例如說組成的比例每年應該要做哪些事情相關義務我們這一條的寫法主要是希望避免體育署認為"},{"start":14491.127,"end":14502.811,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":14517.396,"end":14544.138,"text":"目前在工會實質上運作最吃力就是人事費因為目前受限於各項賽事的隊伍數量還有薪資都會對匯費收入造成結構性的限制目前甚至是直籃女足工會的運作都是由直棒工會這邊在支持直籃跟女足工會可是實務上我們可以看到直棒直籃跟女足工會成立之後對於產業環境的進步所能夠做出來的貢獻"},{"start":14545.399,"end":14570.41,"text":"而目前為了健全運動產業的發展我們也肯定工會或是運動員團體所扮演的角色可是在整部運產條例中我們對於企業投入包含剛講那個稅貸款的部分或者是用地規劃的部分我們都做了很多機制跟討論可是對於運動產業從業人員看不到實質的照顧那我剛說我剛有說勞動部你們之前在相關的勞動補助"},{"start":14572.231,"end":14575.513,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具〈運動產業發展條例〉三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具〉三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":14587.162,"end":14594.487,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12條之一條文修正草案：立法院第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":14617.022,"end":14637.504,"text":"三條之一條文草案 案 ﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12條之一條文草案 案 ﹚立法院第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第"},{"start":14638.405,"end":14640.146,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":14668.845,"end":14669.286,"text":"三條之一條之一條"},{"start":14687.36,"end":14710.508,"text":"這本來就應該要盡量來成立,球員才有管道來可以自己發聲爭取權益,我以前是搞勞工運動的,所以超級支持工會。可是這一條本席確實有一點小疑慮就是說,工會的人事費跟業務費用如果是由中央來提供資金的話,那是否會反而干涉了工會的獨立性?我覺得這是不是要一併來考量?"},{"start":14711.988,"end":14736.945,"text":"因為像現在教師也有教師公會告訴幹會可是教師公會的整個基本上的人事或整個的業務費用都是自己透過收教師的會費來支應的除了他辦一些跟官方協力的活動才會請求教育部的補助所以我覺得公會的獨立性基本上這個也要顧及"},{"start":14740.347,"end":14762.532,"text":"所以這部分等一下再請勞動部跟教育部來做一些說明,以上。好,謝謝張雅琳委員,完結的是吳春泉委員。好,那因為其實在我剛剛的質詢裡也有提到就是說希望體育署可以去爭取這個勞動部的預算來去協助籌組公會,因為不管是剛剛最近的這個瓊師杯也好,或是過去的女足,她們訓練的環境等等都其實都透過公會發聲,那如果我們沒有"},{"start":14763.172,"end":14764.533,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":14791.358,"end":14812.624,"text":"我先說明一下大家如果看到剛剛我們的提案版本其實他們因為教育部特別把七之二他把它列為說不予增訂所以以至於我們其他委員所提出來的七之三等等在這份版本裡面就變成七之二來做討論所以大家會有點confuse好不好所以我們現在就看到陳培宇委員這一塊目前來說是討論工會的問題我怕大家跟我剛剛一樣有點造成困擾好不好"},{"start":14818.846,"end":14825.449,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條之二條文修正草案：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":14847.81,"end":14848.931,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":14865.097,"end":14866.417,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":14895.487,"end":14897.051,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具"},{"start":14904.264,"end":14906.686,"text":"二條文修正草案案 案例第1、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":14926.421,"end":14926.641,"text":"三條之一條文草案 案"},{"start":14948.792,"end":14951.313,"text":"二條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":14972.605,"end":14982.952,"text":"條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：一、�"},{"start":14999.264,"end":15000.485,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":15018.544,"end":15030.796,"text":"最重要的就是裡面會有人事可能會是一個負擔會有一些業務費用會是一個負擔我在想能不能我們能接受第一項保留我們會請體育署來訂定輔導的相關要點那要點裡面會找"},{"start":15036.641,"end":15058.972,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":15064.383,"end":15084.264,"text":"可以計劃裏面如何申請計劃補助的內容。那這個要點在訂要點的時候我們會找相關的工會、工協會代表一起來協商。所以你是認為第二項的條文可以接受你還要額外再訂要點?還是怎麼樣?第二項那個我們用要點的方式不要入法。不要入法?"},{"start":15085.484,"end":15088.525,"text":"二條之一條文草案 案。"},{"start":15114.279,"end":15116.061,"text":"三條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":15127.199,"end":15144.718,"text":"第一項成立拿掉第二項如果我還是希望留法源依據可是我們把所謂業務費用跟基本人事費刪掉可以嗎因為剛剛怡瑾也提醒我如果按照公會的角度去想的話業務費用跟人事費用跟基本人事費我們還是留到他們以後例如說他們來寫計劃拿任何補助"},{"start":15149.177,"end":15164.825,"text":"三條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":15169.907,"end":15179.922,"text":"有不同的工會他有不同的主管機關所以但是如果你們有相關辦法讓地方政府有所依據他們才不會又說啊沒有辦法所以不用做這樣可以嗎好還有紅夢開委員"},{"start":15186.437,"end":15200.157,"text":"本期在這一條上面我也是支持說我們一定要給予運動員的公會跟團體最大的一個協助所以我反而我們在第一段的部分我覺得成立其實可以不用拿掉那應該再加入說運作"},{"start":15201.659,"end":15202.4,"text":"除了成立及運作"},{"start":15225.575,"end":15233.72,"text":"二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案案案件 、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之"},{"start":15250.166,"end":15275.156,"text":"所以我覺得承認是不是也要保留我反而認為說第二段的部分還是要保留因為現在要入法那我同意張廖次長剛剛講的是說你後續再找協商就中央主管定定之這個辦法找協商找討論我們一定會參與那但是我認為說這個文字的部分還是要保留在這個七之二上面以上謝謝好來教育部還有范議員"},{"start":15279.392,"end":15306.666,"text":"這條就如同我早上的質詢一樣我還覺得說我們這個只是積極鼓勵輔導就變得還不夠有力量所以承認的部分刪除剛剛黃孟楷委員的意見我也同意但我希望這個條文能夠保留那還希望就是說如果教育部這邊能夠有一些更積極更能夠有力量的文字能夠加進去這是我認為的"},{"start":15307.346,"end":15324.842,"text":"二條之一條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":15334.468,"end":15335.389,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":15359.423,"end":15362.025,"text":"條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文"},{"start":15378.837,"end":15379.518,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":15394.44,"end":15394.76,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":15423.152,"end":15423.592,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":15438.823,"end":15455.354,"text":"二條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一"},{"start":15469.283,"end":15490.003,"text":"所以說我們在七之二的條文的第一項,大家是都可以﹖不過沒有,剛剛洪孟楷提出的是團體成立與運作,還是﹖還是﹖第一項啊。我說第一項,是針對第一項。對,我的想法是成立不要三,即運作。"},{"start":15494.516,"end":15498.719,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":15518.316,"end":15540.436,"text":"第一項部分為健全職業與業員運動業之發展中央主管機關應積極輔導相關賽事之運動員工會成立及運作第二項部分其實還蠻多的一些爭議我們的第二項部分是不是保留好不好第一項部分我們就確定可以嗎"},{"start":15544.613,"end":15546.033,"text":"三條之一條文草案案。"},{"start":15567.145,"end":15568.386,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":15593.181,"end":15597.563,"text":"三條之一條之一條之三條之一條之三條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之"},{"start":15622.198,"end":15624,"text":"七之三等19人擬具"},{"start":15652.011,"end":15675.078,"text":"我的修正草案七之二就說一定要成立這個所謂的好七之三就是所謂成立所謂的防治賭博運動賭博的信託基金所以呢這個七之三沒有問題那我們也要要求是說這個說明的部分應該要說明清楚教育部等一下可以再說明清楚一點是說那你"},{"start":15675.598,"end":15702.971,"text":"之後這個信託基金的用途要怎麼使用?這可能可以在說明欄裡面來做這個說明那另外本席要求如果說這樣的話那我們修正動議以及像教委你有提到的這個納入中央主管機關公共運動競技賽事我們就列為七之四所以等一下我們要不要脫鉤七之四來討論這個好我們可以討論還沒有等一下剛剛舉手的不好意思喔"},{"start":15703.331,"end":15711.838,"text":"三條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":15730.29,"end":15750.726,"text":"非法運動賭博影響運動產業的健全發展而且對運動選手個人的運動生涯甚至人身安全造成極大的威脅所以必須要有效的抑止非法運動賭博的擴散強化對運動選手的保障所以我們提出了運動產業發展條例的第七條"},{"start":15754.409,"end":15765.737,"text":"本來是之一跟之二現在要改成之三跟之四條文的草案那這一個但是呢體育署這裡好像把它這個就是"},{"start":15767.423,"end":15769.404,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":15797.896,"end":15811.524,"text":"三條之一條之二條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":15826.479,"end":15836.688,"text":"三條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":15839.079,"end":15840.019,"text":"第二十五條之一條文草案案"},{"start":15862.325,"end":15863.726,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":15880.401,"end":15893.998,"text":"我想要討論一個重點就是說業與運動賽事的定義。業與運動賽事的範圍如何界定?什麼規模標準的業與運動賽事需要納入規範?這個部分請體育署等一下針對這個部分說明一下。"},{"start":15899.435,"end":15920.49,"text":"國務卿委員我想這個運動賽事業跟那個所謂的賭博的這個相關的一些議題其實大家都一直在非常的關注也在討論但是因為現在這個科技不斷的在進步之下其實那個運動的博弈的管道其實是非常非常多那不管是透過所謂現金或者是海外賬戶的一個方式進行其實都會重創我們的運動產業的一個形象"},{"start":15922.791,"end":15945.549,"text":"那我想說現行我們這個部分是不是跟我們的司法機關上面的合作上是不是真的能夠有力來做這樣子的一個有效的一個組織那因為有很多的這個他們的海外就是他們博弈的那個中心是設在海外那這個部分是不是有能力可以來做這樣子一個查緝的動作這個我比較關心的謝謝以上好謝謝然後接下來林倩琦委員"},{"start":15947.791,"end":15949.433,"text":"二、審查委員陳培余等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文"},{"start":15976.926,"end":15978.507,"text":"三條之一條之二條之三條之"},{"start":15994.301,"end":16019.938,"text":"不過這樣有沒有辦法就真的能幫助國家的職業或業餘的運動賽事都零賭博然後再者打打假球的懲罰不管是法律上的或者是道德上的他幾乎就是一項對人格跟職業深矮毀滅性的罪行所以這時候還會去打假球的我覺得那不一定就是一個刑法定的刑度不夠的問題不夠重的問題"},{"start":16022.439,"end":16042.734,"text":"此外我覺得制定這個防堵的政策不管是源頭的防堵或者是經流的階段甚至是抓捕這種賭博集團都有賴各部會的分工跟協同的作戰所以這部分本席認為說其實還是要跨部會來積極的研商才是正辦以上"},{"start":16049.248,"end":16060.418,"text":"第二項的部分教育部目前根本的版本是說監獄免以增列但是我還是要提一下為什麼我們希望的寫法是這樣目前我們這個項次是參考運動產業發展條例的立法體力"},{"start":16065.603,"end":16089.596,"text":"考量對於運動產業賽事的保護不應該只限於運彩開盤賽事所以希望透過可以由體育署認定並且公告的職業和業餘賽事擴大保護標的對象另外呢就算是運彩現在有開盤的賽事也會有運彩不開盤的賽事中間有法制空窗所以我們才會提出第二項的主張"},{"start":16090.857,"end":16116.83,"text":"體育署在跟我們開會的時候你們積極的主張會有所謂空白授權的問題你們認為這違反法律的明確性可是我要說目前如果按照你這個說法在運財條例當中也沒有人知道運財會不會開盤或是運財要把哪些賽事納入投注標的可是我希望這一次是透過體育署公告的做法明確界定哪一些賽事要被匡列我要舉一個例子"},{"start":16117.33,"end":16142.366,"text":"之前跟體育署討論過有非常多的學生聯賽其實有非常多的黑金在介入主要就是他們也可以藉此控制年輕選手所以過往這些賽事不在體育署的政策範圍當中它真的就會影響整個運動產業的發展它已經不再是全民運動或是所謂精英運動的問題了所以除了剛剛林議員提到過去職棒的賭盤重重的傷害台灣的職棒"},{"start":16146.869,"end":16148.551,"text":"三條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":16166.36,"end":16174.987,"text":"三條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":16189.48,"end":16190.121,"text":"三條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":16208.4,"end":16208.781,"text":"三條之一條文草案 案 。"},{"start":16226.084,"end":16235.15,"text":"所以不要說因為你說是涉及刑法那你說在這個說明裡面提出是說這個可能還要再跟法務部討論所以建議暫不予爭裂但是那你們就趕快去討論啊不是說還沒討論暫不予爭裂就不予爭裂我還是認為說法則應該要可以訂定進去了"},{"start":16248.334,"end":16261.161,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":16269.525,"end":16284.591,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":16289.393,"end":16303.601,"text":"三條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":16304.79,"end":16307.992,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文"},{"start":16330.365,"end":16332.246,"text":"三條之一條文草案。」案。繼於運動自治,所以各項的運動從"},{"start":16355.356,"end":16361.904,"text":"二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文"},{"start":16374.198,"end":16374.338,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":16392.978,"end":16394.839,"text":"一條文草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":16414.813,"end":16438.221,"text":"那這樣的一個概念的話我們前面講的是合法的運產那後面的這一個其他的投注其實都是不合法的的賭盤那另外一個其他的委員就是沒有這個構成要件他是單純提到說你只要用強暴脅迫甚至是詐欺的方式去影響賽事的公平而他是範圍是什麼"},{"start":16440.741,"end":16449.585,"text":"職業運動或是業餘的運動我們提到會影響賽事的公平性的運作有兩個一個是單純違反規則想贏而已對你說一個想贏的也會被包進來那背後沒有那種想賭盤的想贏的那種作弊也會包進來在其他的委員的版本裡頭所以我們講本來這些都是運動自治的概念要不要把這些納進來處罰這是一個問題"},{"start":16469.594,"end":16471.175,"text":"二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具第十四條之"},{"start":16494.156,"end":16494.336,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":16514.148,"end":16537.314,"text":"主席謝謝我想開宗明義本席先講因為我們剛剛大家發言完一輪之後其實大家對於設置防堵基金大家都有共識都一定要所以這就七之三嘛所以我認為是說如果大家可以看七之三OK的話我們就先讓他直接通過因為七之三就是防堵基金大家都有共識但我們現在討論的其實是七之我剛剛所謂的七之四好"},{"start":16539.002,"end":16539.763,"text":"三條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":16562.938,"end":16563.499,"text":"三條之一條文草案 案 。"},{"start":16575.239,"end":16575.979,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":16595.819,"end":16612.792,"text":"所以我們現在才要講的是說你即使是台灣運彩的一個這個標的以及大多數人大家關注的國內的賽事如果剛我們官方代表要講的是說啊奧運啊世界世界級的部分有世界級的處理但是我們現在能夠"},{"start":16613.873,"end":16625.957,"text":"範圍就是我們國內的職業跟業餘賽事那職業業餘賽事其實教育部體育署已經有很明確的認定嘛很明確的定義什麼是職業賽事什麼是業餘賽事所以我說除了我們職業的運動你說籃球棒球相對業餘的運動像現在排球聯賽也很紅啊那這一些也應該可是他運彩沒有運彩沒有開盤但是他是不是也應該納入就是我們要把"},{"start":16641.201,"end":16641.601,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":16663.05,"end":16672.281,"text":"所以說這才是創立這個七之四的要點所以我真的拜託我們官方代表不要再講那種好像不食人間煙火的話不然越講真的越會讓這些球迷會覺得說欸拳頭都硬了以上謝謝"},{"start":16677.807,"end":16682.03,"text":"三條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第17條之三條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":16695.498,"end":16715.335,"text":"也就是我們平常一般委員裡面的第一項吧。我們這邊如果沒有意見,教育部沒有意見的話,我們7-3就這樣子通過嘛,可以。那對於7-4的部分裡面,我請法務部要做一些說明,不然我們就做保留,然後再來做協商。你需要做一些說明嗎?好,你先簡短做一些說明好不好?"},{"start":16716.876,"end":16718.678,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":16735.573,"end":16736.274,"text":"三條文修正草案 案"},{"start":16751.223,"end":16752.043,"text":"三條之四條之五條之"},{"start":16769.915,"end":16774.776,"text":"兩條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條之"},{"start":16796.681,"end":16807.767,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":16814.83,"end":16816.992,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":16836.147,"end":16836.487,"text":"條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":16864.324,"end":16865.105,"text":"三條之二條之一條文草案。」案。"},{"start":16882.168,"end":16889.913,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之一條文修正"},{"start":16911.085,"end":16911.887,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16927.229,"end":16951.701,"text":"現在其實有一些譬如說我們現在政策上在鼓勵一些希望能夠朝向職業化發展所以我們用企業聯賽企業聯賽你說他到底是純業餘還是職業他有時候有點職業的形態有時候業餘的形態所以我們有時候就講說他是半職業啦所以有時候很難去做這種明確的定義啦對確實是會有點難"},{"start":16958.107,"end":16968.121,"text":"當你沒有辦法界定沒有辦法定義沒有辦法在選定那個範圍的時候那你這個法要怎樣在什麼情況之下是可以法要法應該要法黃國昌委員"},{"start":16976.598,"end":16978.639,"text":"三條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之"},{"start":17001.736,"end":17017.244,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":17030.23,"end":17048.557,"text":"二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":17051.178,"end":17071.555,"text":"三條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":17072.996,"end":17096.508,"text":"大家提供參考的是說事實上我們在這條管制上面的核心不是只是要把它交給全部交給運產業者讓運產業者決定什麼是我們的投注標的所以那些比賽或那些比賽參與的選手就有獲得保護的必要性那如果是這個樣子的話我們在這邊的核心管制是以中央主管機關他所公告的運動競技賽事"},{"start":17098.869,"end":17114.45,"text":"如果是以中央主管機關所公告的運動競技賽事的話我會建議考慮在法條的構成要件上面不需要的東西就不要放譬如說職業與業餘這樣子的一個描述因為"},{"start":17115.111,"end":17117.332,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":17136.062,"end":17151.961,"text":"對於構成要件該當性解釋的困擾因為那個不是我們要保護法益他所要去囊括的構成要件要素所必要的所以或許在規範的架構上面是以中央主管機關他所公告的運動經濟賽事當作一個核心"},{"start":17153.482,"end":17178.969,"text":"這樣子會讓我們的構成要件比較不會增加一些不必要的累贅那最後一點就是我認為或許可以考慮是說在我們針對這種非法的情況之下如果他是要用盈利當作目的的話他在刑度上面他在刑度上面要有一些加重的涉及因為到目前為止我們前面是以強暴脅迫詐欺或非法的方法妨害這些運動賽事的公平性嘛"},{"start":17179.469,"end":17194.847,"text":"但是在我們一般針對非法的活動或是行為,如果是意圖營利的話,通常會有加重處罰的規定。這個是我們當初法條為什麼這樣設計的理由,一併提給教育文化委員會的委員大家做參考。謝謝。好,謝謝。接下來范雲委員。"},{"start":17195.848,"end":17213.57,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":17215.052,"end":17233.191,"text":"我認真支持剛剛黃國昌委員的這個理由但是因為講到說要不要訂定職業或業餘運動業其實我們運動產業條例的第四條的第一款的第一項就已經有這樣子的文字我們使用的是職業或業餘運動業"},{"start":17236.614,"end":17258.623,"text":"對,所以體育署應該本當對於職業或業餘運動業就有所定義了這個是大家可以討論因為我們現行條例第四條就已經有這樣的文字了好,謝謝那回應一下剛剛范雲委員來說的話因為我們這個部分來說原文上是沒有七之四就一如我們剛剛我本來是七之一然後被這個提案版本裡面被併到了七之三那為"},{"start":17259.343,"end":17259.763,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案"},{"start":17287.068,"end":17287.369,"text":"七條之三條文草案案案案案"},{"start":17302.239,"end":17302.96,"text":"三條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":17319.051,"end":17319.732,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":17336.269,"end":17336.769,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":17357.588,"end":17381.24,"text":"不要以為說我們這樣子裂了之後然後以後所有學生裡面開個玩笑都不行這個不會我們講的還是集團的犯罪還是這種暴力威脅強迫真的是傷害到人家讓人家生命性命財產或者是用金錢利用讓球員在運動比賽當中沒有辦法盡全力放水或者是配合運作這第一點"},{"start":17382,"end":17397.854,"text":"第二點如果說我們沒有用主管機關來公告而是用所謂的運動產業發展去開盤的運動賽事才來符合這個要求的話會產生什麼狀況如同我剛剛講的就像去年的SBL沒有辦法處罰到"},{"start":17398.795,"end":17422.873,"text":"還有我記得印象中之前運動彩卷裡面有一條是學生運動的比賽雖然全國矚目但是他沒有辦法當作是投注標的譬如說HBL譬如說UBA這是學生運動比賽但是他不能當成是投注標的但是目前也許沒有但有一些委員剛剛已經講了就是說他也知道說實務上的情形學生運動也有一些這個"},{"start":17424.574,"end":17425.014,"text":"三條之一條文草案。」案。"},{"start":17441.51,"end":17442.631,"text":"二條之一條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之"},{"start":17467.273,"end":17468.574,"text":"三條文草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":17496.317,"end":17502.46,"text":"二十六條之二十六條之二十六條之二十六條之二十六條之二十六條之二十六條之二十六條之二十六條之二十六條之二"},{"start":17520.066,"end":17532.31,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":17538.032,"end":17541.134,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":17558.647,"end":17566.229,"text":"二條之一條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":17587.493,"end":17590.334,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17610.524,"end":17611.466,"text":"三條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":17626.917,"end":17627.657,"text":"三條之一條文草案 。"}]}},{"id":"154737","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154737","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9b4790a0f53dcad72398a8850000c6975e3022e36bc3caf3b34c6ec24cfec767b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:10:47 - 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Kacaw委員：我們看這個是110年的統計數字──原住民住宅自有、租賃戶數，我們就聚焦在都會區，都會區就是非原住民族鄉、鎮、市、區，住宅自有率65.87%，跟全國76.66%的差距將近10%。如果看新北市，110年新北市只有60.85%；臺北市只有55.28%；臺中市只有55.81%，差距都相當大。所以過去內政部、行政院提出住宅法的時候，當時我在內政委員會也提出住宅法的條文，在住宅法第四條特別明定有關社會住宅的相關需要列入的部分，因此在第九款也把「原住民」列入，優先進住社會住宅。","住宅法第五條也特別規定「為使全體國民居住於適宜之住宅，且享有尊嚴之居住環境需要，中央主管機關應衡酌未來環境發展、住宅市場供需狀況、住宅負擔能力、住宅發展課題及原住民族文化需求等，研擬住宅政策，報行政院核定。」另外，就住宅法第二條，我這邊沒有列，住宅法第二條，這個次長都很清楚，我唸一下：「目的事業主管機關應視原住民族教育及語言文化等傳承發展需要，會同主管機關，興辦或獎勵民間興辦，專供原住民承租之社會住宅。」所以這個部分就是解決，尤其都會區原住民的住宅自有率非常非常地……差10%以上，是這樣的一個情形。","當然住宅法第二條，因為它是「目的事業主管機關」，等一下我也會講，我曾經質詢過前任的行政院院長，當初還是林右昌部長，因為現在原民會一直沒有推動出來，所以希望能夠協助，因為你們有住都中心，你們可以協助原民會，那我等一下把這個相關的答復的……另外，我先談這個，當初社會住宅，因為內政部有興辦社會住宅出租辦法，這裡面就是根據當初我們原住民立委在住宅法的時候所提的附帶決議，作了一個針對原住民，要保障原住民入住社會住宅不得低於原住民族人口數占全國人口數的比例，所以這個部分內政部有把它列進去，現在就是也要請內政部去督促，還有哪些縣市政府的社會住宅，是不是沒有把這樣的比例列進去？這個調查結果再回復給我，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今年3月5日院會總質詢，質詢當時的陳建仁院長，當時的內政部林右昌部長特別提到，他說「臺中沙鹿，或者新北市的樹林，以及桃園的部分其實已經有三處了，大概有541戶」，然後我這邊就說是不是把進度提供給我？結果提供了，臺中的說沒有經費，事實上經費要從哪裡來？要從住宅基金，社會住宅就是根據住宅法，所以應該要從住宅基金，而且曾經內政部也同意用住宅基金喔！資料給次長。所以不能說沒有經費，這個是有問題的。","另外，新北市樹林原住民族社會住宅沒有進度；桃園大溪原住民族社會住宅也沒有進度，所以這個部分要請內政部，因為你們有住都中心、有專門的人力去協助原民會及地方政府，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好，跟委員報告，您所列的這三個裡面，基本上臺中跟桃園，桃園當然是發標的問題，臺中市因為他們自己不願意辦，那我們會積極跟地方政府協商，請他們跟我們合作，然後趕快完成。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個沒有經費，這個是錯誤的。"],["董次長建宏：錯的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好不好？"],["董次長建宏：OK，我們有經費，那我們也會盡力完成。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢，謝謝次長、司長。","繼續我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-28","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","黃捷","張宏陸","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","丁學忠","麥玉珍","張智倫","黃建賓","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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10:28:34","影片長度":"00:09:08","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:19:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T10:28:34+08:00","duration":548,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時19分）有請署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["張委員雅琳：署長早安。今天早上大家都非常關心瓊斯盃男女籃同工不同酬的問題，也就是給男籃5,000，給女籃3,000，7月9號籃協還是在聲明稿上非常堅持就是要同工不同酬，他們說如果籃協建議女籃每場出場費5,000塊，工會會不會認為不公平呢？男籃比賽票房比較好，出場賽事多，應該高於女籃的3,000才合理。這就讓我們非常清楚的知道，也許籃協在這件事情上面並沒有正確的理解所謂同工同酬這件事情以及性別平等這個問題。也非常高興看到體育署署長在第一時間就已經發表聲明，呼籲他們必須要針對同工同酬這件事情來處理。","因為目前瓊斯盃女籃都打完了，我想還是有很多事情接下來應該繼續做，第一，我們可以看見在這件事情上籃協的性別意識不足，運動賽事本來就受到性別刻板印象的限制，所以女性相比男性更不易親近體育相關活動，CEDAW（消除對婦女一切形式歧視公約）其實有特別提到針對女性運動、生活的參與必須要予以保障，例如積極參與運動和體育的機會是要相等的，以及在第十三條提及參與娛樂生活、運動和文化生活各個方面的權利也是必須要相等的。其實2019年美國女足也曾經提起訴訟，針對美國足總因為制度的性別歧視等等來進行一些求償，最後在2022年達成和解，美國足球協會賠了2,400萬美金，其中2,200萬用來做為薪資賠償，這就顯示制度會造成的性別歧視在國外是有案例可循的。最近我們也剛審查完國民體育法，當時大家都非常一致支持要強調所謂的性別平等參與，署長在當天其實也有說會持續針對推廣女性參與體育運動白皮書進行盤點，所以我就想要暸解這項盤點大概什麼時候會完成、什麼時候可以提供報告？這是第一個問題。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我已經有在內部開會，目前的確也在進行當中，這部分我們在月底之前……"],["張委員雅琳：月底嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：一個月之內我們把報告交給委員。"],["張委員雅琳：好，再來就是修法過後，有沒有具體的計畫要如何落實到各單項協會？這份報告裡面都有含嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我們有把它加進去，不過說實在的，就剛剛委員提到的這件事情，其實不只是當天我有提出聲明，之後我對於籃協用激勵獎金2,000元這樣的字眼，我還是告訴他們在整個根本上的觀念，其實性別意識還是不足、平等的部分還是不足，這部分我們都會再加強。"],["張委員雅琳：好，針對這個部分，有沒有規劃一個預定的時程，什麼時候會跟各單項協會確認他們是否有落實呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，至少目前為止在新的一屆選舉，在各個委員會的聘任方面，我要求男女生至少要有三分之一單一性別一定要達到，這是在委員會的聘任部分。至於選舉的部分，目前我們的確還在跟他們協商研究，但我覺得這部分也不是不可能。因為後年會進行各單項協會的整個選舉，這一年我們會好好的持續來跟他們溝通。"],["張委員雅琳：所以現在的選舉我們就已經會要求了嘛！"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["張委員雅琳：如果選舉完了……"],["鄭署長世忠：就是接下來只要有新的選舉，委員會一定要有單一性別三分之一……"],["張委員雅琳：0K，瞭解，這部分我還是會持續來追蹤，其實藍協拿了政府非常多的補助款，超過半數的預算都來自於補助款，可是在這次的行為上面卻顯示了這樣子的狀態，所以我想要請教署長，你們會不會有一些更積極的作為去督導他們推行政府所要乎的，這些性別平等的工作？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，雖然我們大力支持協會舉辦國際賽會，但如果您看我們體育署所做的，不管是男子運動員、女子運動員，在各項的補助、賽事的支持，我們其實是朝向平等這樣的方向來進行，籃協這一次在他們的自籌款裡面的出賽費這部分的確有非常不好的示範，我相信其他協會也都看到了，所以這部分我們會持續來呼籲。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想詢問署長，因為其實體育署的國家代表運動權益保障法的報告裡面有提到說在4、5月有召開兩次諮詢會議，其實裡面針對出場費的問題有做一些討論嘛，所以有關單項協會與運動員間的協議範本，我們預計什麼時候可以提供給大眾來瞭解呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，目前我們是先從籃球開始，足球也已經啟動了，我想這部分我們來看看整個雙方談判的結果，滾動式地修正，我們當然希望接下來出現的版本能夠作為大家的公版……"],["張委員雅琳：所以我們大概預計有什麼時候要推出這個公版嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個部分實在是因為談判這種事情是取決於雙方的態度跟技巧跟處理的態度，這部分我實在是沒有辦法給委員一個非常明確的時間，但是我們一直持續在督促他們一定要繼續執行。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，這個我們之後再繼續討論，因為我時間有點不太夠，所以我想因為這次的事件所幸工會公布給大家，大家才知道這件事情，因為勞動部其實有相關的預算來讓民間的這些企業或是勞工籌組工會推動一些相關的保障，所以我在想，為了維護職業運動選手的權益，署長是不是也可以跟勞動部爭取一部分的預算來協助運動員籌組工會？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分我們會持續來努力，事實上，我們對於工會，不管是縣市的工會、球類種類的工會，我們是在它的業務費、整個工會的籌組、業務進行、它在法治教育等等，我們其實是會支持的啦！"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解。接下來，我們這次的巴黎奧運結束之後，其實我們有相當多的選手都即將進入退役了，我之前有看到我們其實有一個黃金計畫梯隊，目前是從2020年東京奧運有大概兩成的選手進入了這次的巴黎奧運，我想要瞭解，在LA的奧運我們有沒有目標要提升，不僅只是兩成，我們有沒有更高的一個目標，要讓更多的選手可以進入LA計畫裡面？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，數字方面，目前我可能沒有辦法很明確來告知委員，但是在計畫方面我們已經啟動2028甚至2032整個潛優，我們在除了目前黃金計畫3億之外，我們在備戰之後的奧運的部分，我們也已經籌編了3億來陸續進行，也請協會提出……"],["張委員雅琳：但是我們應該還是要設一個更高的目標吧，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：是，當然。"],["張委員雅琳：我們也有一個更高的目標……"],["鄭署長世忠：我們希望越來越好，當然。"],["張委員雅琳：好，不好意思，因為我可能時間有點不太夠，所以次長今天可能就先不用上來，我就先問完這個，因為我們在2028其實有一些新興的奧運項目，我們現在已經有選手可以進入國訓中心來做培訓了嗎？我們已經有了嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實只要是奧運的運動種類，我們都會持續來輔導，事實上……"],["張委員雅琳：現在這幾個什麼腰旗美式足球、袋棍球、壁球、板球，因為民間其實也都有人在玩嘛！"],["鄭署長世忠：目前協會都成立了啦！"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是我們已經有選手……因為也只有4年嘛！我們已經有開始有選手……我們有看到選手了嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分他們目前還是不太強，所以在亞洲的階段，目前成績也都還沒有出來，所以這部分我們還在持續努力啦！"],["張委員雅琳：我想這部分其實也跟場地的建置非常有關係。"],["鄭署長世忠：是，沒有錯，你講的沒有錯。"],["張委員雅琳：他們到底有沒有地方可以去練習，所以我想這個我們還是一樣會後繼續討論，我們如何興建相關的場地來支持這些選手可以去做練習，不然成績是不可能好的。"],["鄭署長世忠：是的，沒有錯。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。本席在這邊宣布，在吳沛憶委員質詢完畢之後，我們就會休息10分鐘。","接下來我們請林宜瑾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員林德\n福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案；四、審查委員陳培瑜等21\n人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案；五、審查\n台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.5834687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.25284375,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.598468750000002,"end":14.172218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.960968750000003,"end":16.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.26034375,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.817218750000002,"end":18.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.56784375,"end":23.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.769718750000003,"end":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9人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案�"},{"start":226.073,"end":237.25,"text":"對,好,所以齁,這個部分,這個大概是我們有沒有規劃一個預計的時程,什麼時候會來跟各單項協會來確認他們落實呢?在稍後。報告委員,至少目前為止在"},{"start":239.031,"end":257.566,"text":"三條之一條新的一屆的選舉他在各個委員會的聘任方面我要求男女生這部分至少一定要三分之一的單一性別一定要達到在委員會的聘任部分那選舉的部分當然目前我們的確還在跟他們協商研究啦但我覺得這部分也不是不可能那我這部分因為"},{"start":258.346,"end":259.467,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":279.799,"end":280.52,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":301.789,"end":328.311,"text":"方委員其實雖然我們是大力支持協會來舉辦國際賽會但其實如果您看我們體育署所做的不管是男子運動員女子運動員在各項的補助賽事的支持我們其實是朝向平等這樣來進行但的確啦藍協在出賽費這一次他們的自籌款裡面的這些出賽費這部分的確有非常不好的一個示範那這部分我們我相信其他協會都看到了啦所以這部分我們會持續來呼籲"},{"start":333.257,"end":341.985,"text":"提示署提出國家代表運動權益保障法的報告有提到在第四、四、五月有大概兩次諮詢會議其實裡面有針對出場費的問題有做一些討論所以有關單項協會與運動員間的一個協議範本我們預計什麼時候可以提供給大眾來了解呢?"},{"start":351.254,"end":351.454,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":367.423,"end":368.123,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":390.228,"end":390.448,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":414.139,"end":430.431,"text":"這部分我們會持續的努力。事實上我們對於公會,不管是縣市的公會、球類、種類的公會,我們是在它的業務費整個、它的公會的籌組、業務進行、它在法治教育等等,我們其實是相當會支持的啦。"},{"start":431.431,"end":437.214,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之"},{"start":460.726,"end":473.635,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第1會期教育及文化委員蔡"},{"start":484.642,"end":486.003,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":501.004,"end":503.805,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":519.522,"end":545.539,"text":"我們有看到選手了嗎?包括委員這部分他們還是目前還是不太強所以在亞洲的階段目前成績也都還沒有出來所以這部分我們還要持續努力我想這部分其實也跟場地的建置非常有關係他們到底有沒有機會這個地方可以去練習所以我想這個我們還是要會後繼續的討論就是說我們如何來興建相關的場地來支持這些選手可以去做練習不然成績是不可能好的是的沒有錯謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"154734","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154734","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9b49019e682bf252c398a8850000c69757a1943798cc7ee90896b02f461641f995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:24:02 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管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":68.206,"end":75.105,"text":"跟次長來表達其實今天有很多委員我們都很關注租屋族的權益其實我自己長期也是租屋族"},{"start":76.004,"end":96.855,"text":"那都在租房子所以部長我要先肯定其實現在內政部在6月底的時候通過行政院的小保會那會在7月15號上路的租電價的這個新制上面其實這是一個非常大的進展其實從去年的11月開始我就透過幾次的質詢包括跟經濟部跟內政部來討論怎麼樣解決房東利用這個電價來賺差價來獲利的這個漏息"},{"start":105.8,"end":131.549,"text":"那我自己的辦公室也我們一直在參與跟內政部的政策的討論這部分坦白說我覺得要給內政部蠻大的肯定那今年的6月28我在我自己的社群平台上面宣傳這個政策即將要公佈實施其實獲得非常非常多年輕網友的好評不過也陸續收到了很多網友跟相關租屋族他們也很多疑問或者是他們有很多的提問"},{"start":132.847,"end":160.2,"text":"那我現在看到在內政部的租賃條例的專區裡面有公布一份QA這份QA在租賃專區的QA裡面我有看到那看起來有想要回答一些問題可是說實話我看到這份QA我認為有很大改善的空間舉例來說這個我們現在在社群的平台上面收到最多的問題現在我以上列的這些我們目前看到內政部都還沒有很清楚的解釋比方說舉例"},{"start":161.34,"end":176.268,"text":"租賃家的心智是否適用於營業場所﹐比方說百貨公司﹐百貨商場﹐包括夜市﹐小攤商也告訴我說﹐他們往往多架一顆燈﹐就要被夜市的管委會多收費30塊﹐像這算不算﹐電價被超收﹐像這種問題﹐"},{"start":177.409,"end":191.674,"text":"二、租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":193.675,"end":210.192,"text":"在比方說更多人會問那租客要如何知道有沒有被房東超收電費那這部分其實我們已經跟台電商量好規劃好的一個好的大家去查詢平均電價的機制可是大家也是不知道所以我們需要給大家一些操作型的指引讓大家去做"},{"start":210.692,"end":237.572,"text":"再來,房東不能透過電費來賺差價,那是不是會來趁機漲房租?那該怎麼辦?這剛剛前面有一個委員,我記得張志文委員有問到,那執行面上面到底房東要怎麼配合台電才能夠減少麻煩?這些問題我覺得都是重要的問題,但是現在在QA上面我們都沒有看到這些問題。所以部長、次長我要說,其實我們在看到現在的這個租賃市場上面有很多不同型態的房東跟租客,包括"},{"start":238.473,"end":240.534,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。"},{"start":255.439,"end":282.481,"text":"在合法合規上面其實現在是需要內政部更大力的去做宣傳的要給完整的建議所以我要要求這個包括市長跟司長我覺得我們要定期來檢討這份QA那把大家遇到直接常見的問題都應該列上去其實有一個明確的答案第二個我覺得不能夠只有放在你們的網站上啊年輕人看不到啊你們要不要去利用更多的社群平台去甚至我要說"},{"start":283.683,"end":301.993,"text":"你們應該我自己都覺得我們有很多的租屋網站這些租屋網站是不是直接在租屋網站上面就要標明把這訊息不得超收電費那電費該怎麼收清清楚楚的列在上面讓房東跟房客直接就可以知道不一定一定非得透過房客的檢舉才能夠去修改過去錯誤的行為"},{"start":303.214,"end":303.334,"text":"市長,有沒有問題?"},{"start":319.275,"end":337.456,"text":"沒問題,我們會照委員的建議做定期的對QA的修正。那也感謝委員提供一些相關的QA給我們。但我覺得重點是要花力氣、花資源主動宣傳。這是一個好的政策讓大家更多人知道,它可以廣受好評,可是只怕我們的配套不足、宣傳不足。"},{"start":338.337,"end":362.737,"text":"二、租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":364.062,"end":376.463,"text":"其實現在很多房東來跟我們反映他們過去確實可能因為過去的習慣或者是過去前人跟他們講的做法不是合法的做法可是他們現在可能也想要改用合法的做法但是他們"},{"start":377.489,"end":401.031,"text":"有些來反應,他想更知道怎麼這些操作上面的細節。第二個事情是,其實確實坦白說,很多委員講到租屋黑市的存在,是現在很多租客跟房東之間權力不平等的問題。這事情當然需要面對,可是我覺得在面對的同時幾件事情的做法,我覺得至少可以優先先做。我們政府不是不了解這個問題,但是其實已經推出很多棍子跟胡蘿蔔,"},{"start":401.972,"end":424.794,"text":"但是包括房東或者是公益出租人其實我覺得我們現在也開始有所謂專案的查核在這個學校周邊想要查八千我們這都有我覺得我們要讓房東很清楚知道第一個如果你要做一個合法的房東其實你可以享有政府多少的優惠如果你要做一個非法的房東或不合規的房東你可能要付出什麼樣的代價其實我覺得這部分"},{"start":425.799,"end":447.179,"text":"要擴大的宣傳讓大家知道我們把這個你可以拿到的優惠跟你會受到的懲罰之間這個要讓大家清清楚楚我覺得在大家會慢慢的做行為上面的校正因為有很多的房東他也跟我們說我們並沒有就想要當一個非法的房東可是過去長年以來的習慣是這樣我現在也想改可是我要怎麼改我需要一些政府的幫忙"},{"start":447.799,"end":469.213,"text":"這部分我還是要跟內政部說我們還是現在開始說我覺得我們其實陸陸續續推出了蠻多的政策但真的有很多房東跟房客還是不了解這部分宣傳是一件事情但我們現在接下來可能想討論更多規範性的做法我也贊成要有規範性的做法但至少宣傳能夠是起的應該是第一步而且這要花資源宣傳不要把頭埋在沙裡面我覺得這是一個部分市長應該沒問題吧"},{"start":470.054,"end":472.476,"text":"沒有問題,我們會照委員的建議,我們加長來處理。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154731","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154731","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9310be66981f8085d398a8850000c69757a1943798cc7ee9090663b8067722b965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:48:17 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side的互動，可是住宅有一個特殊狀況是它有所謂的獨一性，也就是說，這個地點蓋了房子，這個地點就不能蓋另外一間，所以它具有一定程度的壟斷性，在經濟學上我們很清楚，有壟斷性的地方就不是一般的單純市場，而是具有壟斷性的市場或寡占性市場。"],["徐委員欣瑩：反正現在臺灣就是房價、房租一路飆漲，我們今天要談的，我想您也接受了很多委員質詢，那就是租屋黑市的問題。有關租屋黑市的問題，現在空屋高達166.4萬戶，為什麼沒有辦法讓民間釋出這些空屋呢？"],["董次長建宏：我想空屋跟租屋市場之間的連結性，首先要先跟委員報告，我們目前在法定上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我的問題是，目前我們政府的政策有在想辦法鼓勵或獎勵讓他釋出嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們當然是透過包租代管政策等等，誘使房東把房子釋出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，但是我們看到日本，日本取消固定資產稅優惠額，讓持有人的成本增加三到四倍，所以它的空屋開始釋出，可是我們臺灣呢？蔡政府之前的囤房稅2.0也提高了三到四倍，但是並非實價課稅，所以讓每戶每年大概就增加個三、四萬，等於他每年就是多繳個三、四萬塊，所以我們的囤房率還是比較高。當然我們瞭解，現在300億包租代管，包租代管蔡政府花了8年，過去4年1,200億的租金補貼，本席想瞭解每年租金補貼的預算300億，但是真的接受申請的到底花掉多少？平均。"],["董次長建宏：我請我們國土署來說明。"],["張專門委員渝欣：跟委員報告一下，我們租金補貼的部分，今年度……"],["徐委員欣瑩：今年的不要，我問去年，因為去年整年過掉了，去年的預算應該有300億吧？"],["張專門委員渝欣：對，去年是第一年開辦300億，大概是32萬戶左右。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有來申請的，到底300億花掉多少？"],["張專門委員渝欣：報告委員，這個確實數據是不是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們都沒掌握？都不知道？這樣真的不行！"],["張專門委員渝欣：不好意思。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我想次長你們一定瞭解，包括王司長，我們現在租屋黑市問題很大，而租屋補貼沒辦法落實是因為房客要申請租屋補貼，請問房東下一句話是什麼？你一定很清楚嘛！就是──不要租你！"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，我們其實透過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，這個情況怎麼解決？我要聽的是這個。"],["董次長建宏：第一個，透過實際租屋的住宅調查，我們就發現因為租屋的租金補貼而不出租的房東，其實並沒有很高，大概一成左右。"],["徐委員欣瑩：哇！這個就可怕了。你知道……"],["董次長建宏：對，但是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以現在我就擔心我們的官員對實際的市場，我跟你講……"],["董次長建宏：沒有，我要跟委員報告，我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我先講，現在立法院這麼多的助理，很多不是設籍在臺北，他們在臺北都要租房子，還有區域立委在各地的助理全部都租房子，真正去問一下，我看我們就在委員的助理裡面做個問卷，如實回答一下，大部分都黑市啊！全部都是黑市租屋，你怎麼會說只有一成？我不相信。"],["董次長建宏：我跟委員報告，申請租金補貼本來就不需要房東同意，我們目前的修法已經確定不需要房東同意。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，這些我都知道。"],["董次長建宏：房客可以依據消保法第十二條主張……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，不用他同意，可是房客要提出，提出以後，國稅局就還是會去查他嘛！"],["董次長建宏：我們在法律裡面也明確規定不得作為查稅的依據。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不查稅？"],["董次長建宏：對，所以基本上他們只要願意申請，我們就會給予。如果在這個過程裡面……"],["徐委員欣瑩：他如果不申請也可以？"],["董次長建宏：對……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我說房東，也就是說……"],["董次長建宏：這個申請是房客的事情，房客自己去申請就可以了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，房客申請嘛！那房東的資訊不會被揭露嗎？會不會被揭露？房東的房子會不會被揭露？"],["董次長建宏：它被揭露，但是不能夠查稅啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是被揭露的情況下，比如說我是房東，這一棟房子我有20間小套房出租，結果有3個要申請租屋補貼，所以你的意思是說揭露沒有關係，不影響他的權益？"],["董次長建宏：沒有揭露啊！我們沒有揭露，租金補貼就是他拿來，然後我們告訴他，他就去申請了，就這樣！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，他去申請，你們不會去查有沒有確實是這樣？會吧？"],["董次長建宏：他會上傳他的租賃資料、他的租約嘛！"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們只看契約就給他了？"],["董次長建宏：對啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以無關乎他房東的房子，你們不會去查，這個是一直這樣嗎？還是現在有改法令，是這一兩年或去年開始有改嗎？"],["張專門委員渝欣：我們就是針對房客提出的資料進行審查，審查合格我們就會撥付租金補貼。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以房東的資訊政府什麼都不會看，然後也沒有人會去查房東？"],["張專門委員渝欣：我不會去查房東，基本上房租上面就會有一些相關的資訊，甚至我們現在連房東……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不會有人去查說，這邊有一間是租金補貼、這邊有20間整個都是出租的，不會去查？"],["張專門委員渝欣：我們不會主動去做這種查核。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，不好意思！本席希望就是，去年開始實施嘛，去年跟今年你有300億元的租金補貼，你告訴我到底有多少戶來申請、發出了多少錢，可不可以把這個資料能夠儘快給我們？"],["張專門委員渝欣：好，可以給委員，沒問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝，謝謝主席！"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢，謝謝次長跟司長。","繼續請洪申翰委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-28","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","黃捷","張宏陸","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","丁學忠","麥玉珍","張智倫","黃建賓","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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side的互動可是住宅有一個特殊的狀況是它有所謂的獨一性也就是說這個地點蓋了房子別的地點就就是這個地點就不能蓋另外一間所以它具有一定程度的壟斷性那在經濟學上我們很清楚有壟斷性的地方它就不是一般的單純市場而是具有壟斷性的市場或寡占性市場"},{"start":69.219,"end":83.702,"text":"反正現在台灣就是房價房租一路飆漲我們今天要談的當然我想您也接受很多委員質詢就是租屋黑市的問題租屋黑市的問題我們現在空屋高達有166.4萬戶為什麼沒有辦法"},{"start":94.864,"end":98.886,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。"},{"start":119.789,"end":145.492,"text":"我們當然是透過那個包租貸款政策等等去使用又是房子房東把房子釋出出來對那但是我們看到日本日本他這個取消固定資產稅的優惠額他讓持有人的成本增加3到4倍所以他的空屋開始釋出可是我們台灣蔡政府之前"},{"start":146.452,"end":173.005,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":174.506,"end":192.231,"text":"四年呢?過去四年一千兩百億的租金補貼本席想了解每年租金補貼到底你預算三百億但是你真正申請然後你你真的接受申請的你你花掉多少?平均平均我請我們國土組來做說明跟委員報告一下"},{"start":197.148,"end":222.532,"text":"就是我們租金補貼的部分齁,我們今年度的...今年沒有,去年,因為去年整年過掉了嘛,去年,去年你預算應該有300億吧?對,因為去年是第一年開辦300億,所以他的這個,是大概32萬戶左右。300億,那他到底有來申請的你,你到底300億花掉多少?"},{"start":223.94,"end":250.743,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":251.964,"end":278.517,"text":"請你回答房東會怎麼對就是房客要租屋補貼請問房東下一句話是什麼你一定很清楚嘛不要租你對不對跟委員報告我們其實不是這情況怎麼解決我要聽的是這個我們第一個就是我們透過實際的租屋的住宅調查裡面其實我們就發現因為租金租屋補貼而不去租租的房東其實並沒有很高大概一層左右"},{"start":279.177,"end":300.195,"text":"這個就可怕,你知道,所以現在我就擔心我們的官員在實際的市場,我跟你講,現在立法院這麼多的助理,很多絕對不一定,有的當然是,但很多不是涉及在台北,他在台北都租房子。"},{"start":300.675,"end":327.922,"text":"還有我們區域立委在各地的助理全部都租房子真正去問一下我看我們就做個問卷在我們委員的助理裡面如實回答一下大部分都黑市啊全部都是黑市租屋你怎麼會說只有一層我跟委員報告就是說整個申請租金補貼本來就不需要房東同意我們目前的修法已經確定不需要房東同意房客可以依據消保法第12條去主張"},{"start":329.702,"end":349.797,"text":"房客要提出嘛提出以後那個國稅局就還是會去查他嘛我們在法令裡面也明確規定他的他不得作為他查稅的依據嘛好不查稅對所以基本上他們基本上他只要願意申請我們就會給予然後他如果說在這個過程裡面對我說房東"},{"start":353.18,"end":354.501,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":368.68,"end":396.632,"text":"但是他揭露的情況下比如說我是房東我有20間我這一棟房子我有20間小套房出租結果呢有三個要跟我申請就是他要租屋補貼那是不是我這邊的我就所以你的意思說揭露沒有關係不影響他的權益沒有揭露啊我們沒有揭露他申請租金補貼就是他拿來然後我們告訴他他就去申請了就這樣對對他去申請那房東的"},{"start":398.153,"end":425.532,"text":"他去申請你們不會去查說有沒有確實是這樣嗎?會吧?他會上傳他的租賃資料嗎?所以你們只看契約就給他了?所以無關乎他的房東的房子你們不會去查?這個是一直這樣嗎?還是現在有改法令?是這一兩年去年有開始有改還是?我們就是針對房客提出的資料進行審查審查合格我們就會撥付租金補貼"},{"start":428.301,"end":457.143,"text":"對,那所以房東的資訊房東的都不會被政府什麼都不會看然後也沒有人會去查房東對,我們不會去查房東因為他房租基本上房租上面就會有一些相關的資訊那甚至我們現在連房東不會有人去查說這邊有一間有租金補貼所以去查說這邊有20間這邊整個都是租出租的,不會對,我們不會主動去做這種查核"},{"start":458.736,"end":459.397,"text":"主席紅森漢委員"}]}},{"id":"154730","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154730","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9c2e908c430b387c4398a8850000c69757a1943798cc7ee90523c519c83fc81e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:41:31 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Kacaw","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查國民黨黨團擬具「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十\n八條之三條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第\n三十四條、第三十八條及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":4.7897187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.05971875,"end":18.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.58909375,"end":21.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.20471875,"end":23.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.27221875,"end":22.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.07784375,"end":25.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.246593750000002,"end":32.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.456593750000003,"end":35.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.23221875,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.479093750000004,"end":102.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.862218750000004,"end":54.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.790343750000005,"end":55.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.523468750000006,"end":61.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.77971875,"end":96.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.32721875,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.34409375000001,"end":102.78284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.96846875,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.87409375,"end":120.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.41721875,"end":139.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.59721875,"end":129.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.26784375,"end":131.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.07784375,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.23284375,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.17971875,"end":155.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.95596875,"end":156.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.39471875,"end":183.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.52909375000002,"end":160.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.67659375000002,"end":162.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.94471875000002,"end":174.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.19784375,"end":174.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.09221875,"end":175.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.61909375000002,"end":178.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.98159375,"end":181.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.38221875000002,"end":188.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.15346875,"end":188.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.33909375000002,"end":188.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.85784375,"end":217.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.90034375000002,"end":216.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.95471875,"end":218.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.88284375,"end":229.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.53096875000003,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.48784375000002,"end":236.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.27909375000002,"end":255.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.08034375000003,"end":251.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.82221875000002,"end":268.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.11721875,"end":258.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.36534375,"end":264.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.76534375,"end":278.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.26596875,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.65284375000005,"end":305.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.44346875,"end":308.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.91971875,"end":307.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.69596875,"end":314.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.31596875,"end":309.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.68284375,"end":311.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.45471875000004,"end":313.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.95659375,"end":373.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.48534375,"end":360.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.03159375,"end":391.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.68409375000005,"end":384.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.46034375000005,"end":384.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.99159375000005,"end":394.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.65721875,"end":400.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.99034375,"end":396.25596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":14.744,"text":"市長好!委員好!我們今天來討論租賃住宅市場管理條例的修法的部分。租賃住宅是我們國家的重大建築,因為租賃住宅市場的額數比較大,是這個租賃住宅的人有多少?我們可以統計起來嗎?"},{"start":25.523,"end":40.553,"text":"實際上我們的根據人口統計資料我們大概有八十幾萬的出租戶,八十七萬的出租戶。 將近百萬,將近百萬,其實我們今天統計起來是可能有更多的啦。是。 啊,我們政府現在要求像要求我剛才講的,將要對這個做廚的人資訊比較有透明,變性比較弱勢,所以我們今天來討論這個手法啦。啊,剛才"},{"start":48.618,"end":58.185,"text":"說到這個弱勢租客,最多是都入社會年輕的群組,獎勵人的負擔是很重要。我們回顧第一次修這國法,這是兩年前的事。我們來進一步排除租金、實價登錄,雖然你有跟第一次都一樣不一樣,甚至你有中最重要的是公開租金的租金上漲。"},{"start":75.358,"end":91.511,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":102.939,"end":124.383,"text":"我認為租金的壓軌與否與市場有關,但是我們透過目前快速的去直接落實到租金的市場每一戶每一戶的直接公開的會造成另外一個狀況就是說市場的供給的量會下降,因為很多人租出其實他們不是說我們現在對的目標是說"},{"start":128.604,"end":130.125,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":139.38,"end":142.102,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":170.342,"end":171.823,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":190.075,"end":205.366,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":219.636,"end":223.798,"text":"希望說全面實施租賃實價登錄發想就來接受這是一定有比較困難像剛才我們次長說的我們要如何一國一國來做到希望我們內政國要有一些具體的規劃及一些政策讓我們看得到如何讓我們租房者的權益可以更加多的一個過程不然可能要再討論這個居住正義的修法我們內政國"},{"start":248.848,"end":267.935,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":276.678,"end":281.101,"text":"這是符合我們這個合乎租客的款項,但減少電費,有可能會提高租金嗎?我們對於租金的部分,這當然就是定型化企業的意思,就是我們客戶裡面就比較好,租金是安全。"},{"start":295.652,"end":297.013,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":312.159,"end":313.319,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條"},{"start":335.185,"end":337.306,"text":"臺電申請公司用電話,有一定的通過。申請完成,可能會造成分一戰鬥出乎不敢來分攤附近的一個爭議,造成我們租客房東的一個爭議。我們推動居住爭議也要考量實際,以及我們這個公權的合理性,否則最會影響的,大部分是比較弱勢的一個狀況。"},{"start":359.557,"end":359.817,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":376.753,"end":380.475,"text":"不然真的誇獎到我們這位的租客,頂多贖心到我們這個市場的金條及租賃到處。在這,給我們次長提醒一下,感謝次長先靠你,先靠你。感謝委員的指教,委員剛才提成的事情,我們未來的檢討。好,謝謝,謝謝。好,非常謝謝丁薛忠委員,謝謝,謝謝次長、次長,繼續我們請許新穎委員。"}]}},{"id":"154729","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154729","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9784ce9c2f28af5de160fff40bb8bca637a1943798cc7ee902ed63b081278be015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:57:51 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案。」案。"},{"start":28.933,"end":55.633,"text":"二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":58.857,"end":63.419,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具〈運動產業發展條例〉三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具〈運動產業發展條例〉"},{"start":80.134,"end":81.035,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":106.658,"end":135.292,"text":"我們要跟著這樣國際時代的潮流你看銀超、西甲或者是德甲那個觀眾啊任何一場職業足球都是大概五、六萬人這個現在是歐洲盃嘛那歐洲盃你知道現在冠軍隊是哪一位嗎是哪一個國家抱歉不確定還沒比完當然不知道"},{"start":136.801,"end":158.751,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之三、審查委員林德福等16人�"},{"start":162.014,"end":186.064,"text":"條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之三、審查委員林德"},{"start":188.66,"end":215.225,"text":"三條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":218.171,"end":218.992,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":229.451,"end":248.398,"text":"二條文修正草案案 案 。 bicy 您認為這是總統的一個政策,那當然這個行政部門要盡快去執行。 bicy 包委員我們在過去的運動產業部分的確相對保守,特別在足球的部分,所以這部分我們在接下來的體育部的這個組織的籌劃部分,會針對運動產業這件事情能夠更務實面去跟產業這邊做結合。 bicy 八年奧運這個26號就要開幕了,那這個中華隊"},{"start":259.692,"end":261.614,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":280.606,"end":282.547,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":310.01,"end":310.992,"text":"三條之二條之一條"}]}},{"id":"154728","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154728","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db91cb9e97527bd3c65e6fdecbb7cc8faa77a1943798cc7ee907bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:45:43 - 11:57:44","影片長度":"00:12:01","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T11:45:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T11:57:44+08:00","duration":721,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":37,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-37"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":667,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時45分）有請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：次長好。今年2月17號我開記者會倡議要修訂棄保潛逃罪，這個會期的尾聲樂見法案開始審理，這是避免罪犯逃逸不受司法制裁改革的第一哩路，也是守護司法正義的第一哩路。去年詐欺案件發生將近3萬8,000件，財損超過88億，雙雙創下中華民國歷史新高。實質上，民進黨執政8年，臺灣的詐欺案成長1.8倍，讓很多的國人家破人亡，而詐騙集團的首腦、幹部很多目前都藏身國外，利用網路通訊繼續遠端指揮，對不對？事實上有這個情形嘛，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是，沒錯。"],["羅委員智強：所以現在逍遙法外的通緝犯有多少百分比涉犯詐欺罪，你有掌握嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們目前只有通緝的罪名……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，將近3成，我看到的相關……"],["徐次長錫祥：我們發布通緝偵查中的五大案由，第一個就是詐欺，它有37.99%。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["徐次長錫祥：如果是有罪執行通緝的話，它是排第四位，是7.5，大概是這樣。"],["羅委員智強：對。根據刑事局統計，目前有超過8萬名通緝犯登記在案，其中有出境紀錄高達8,000人，有一半是在起訴後的審判或執行階段逃脫，實際上對我們的司法威信跟社會治安造成很嚴重的威脅。然而，現行法制規範依法逮捕拘禁脫逃者有刑責，但對具保、責付、限制住居、限制出境或出海的被告有逃匿行為的時候，只能夠按照刑事訴訟法第一百十八條沒入保證金，並沒有刑責，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是的。"],["羅委員智強：現狀是這樣。所以造成我們現在棄保潛逃者為數者眾，也傷害我們對司法公正的信任度，同時警政單位也要耗費大量人力去追捕棄保潛逃的通緝犯，所以我們有參照美國法制的棄保潛逃罪，以及我們司法改革國是會議在2017年的決議，增加了第一段後項，就是將棄保潛逃入罪，以提高棄保潛逃的法律嚇阻。","那麼我想問一下，實質上，今天我們討論的不管是妨害司法公正、棄保潛逃的刑法修正案，行政院從2019年11月到2024年3月已經召開了11次審查會，這麼漫長的時間仍在審議，沒有通過院會提出院版，我想請教次長到底是什麼原因？院內的反對意見又是什麼？"],["徐次長錫祥：不是院內、院裡面的長官反對，不是，因為棄保潛逃罪就是美國立法例的立法概念，我們實體法是承襲歐美法系的，有不自證己罪的原則，這兩個比較不是很相同的一個法理要結合在一起，那就會很多學者有意見。"],["羅委員智強：其實我覺得次長，基本上，學者有意見，我們還是要看所謂法律的實質效果。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：因為事實上，現在擺在明顯的現實上就是有非常多的詐欺犯棄保潛逃，今天為什麼要去審打詐四法？就是要提高各樣的威嚇力，也要阻斷今天在海外這些詐欺集團去詐騙國人這個犯罪情事，所以我要特別講的是，事實上，為什麼今天很欣慰有這第一哩路往前走？就是因為過去實質上關於棄保潛逃的研議，就只聞樓梯響，不見人下來。實質上，我剛剛問的問題還不只是棄保潛逃罪，還有包括妨害司法公正罪，我就不太懂，為什麼妨害司法公正罪也一樣躺著不出來呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：這是整個刑法修改草案，是在一起的，都是妨害司法公正的。"],["羅委員智強：實質上我沒有看到你們院版啦！沒關係，我跟你講，我待會要問妨害司法公正罪，我先把棄保潛逃這個部分問完，像國寶集團總裁朱國榮涉及重大經濟犯罪，5億交保，卻在去年9月棄保潛逃，直到今年2月，最高檢函請北檢啟動廢止註銷護照程序，才註銷了朱國榮的護照。我想請問一下，難怪很多人都講說，今天沒有棄保潛逃罪，棄保潛逃就是相對變相的付費逃亡，反正有錢人他無所謂啊！對不對？交保金就5億，他也無所謂啊！對不對？尤其是像其他的包括詐欺犯，那個詐欺金額更高，他就更無所謂，但是我就要從這個案例來問，針對棄保潛逃的逃犯，通常是由檢察機關發函外交部，依照護照條例來廢止逃犯的護照，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["羅委員智強：為什麼剛剛我講的那個朱國榮的案子，經歷了半年之久，花那麼長的時間？從潛逃到註銷護照。"],["徐次長錫祥：通緝要不要護照？"],["羅委員智強：從棄保潛逃到註銷護照大概將近半年的時間。"],["徐次長錫祥：這個是由法院跟……就是司法機關就會通知外交部來決定是不是把他的……"],["羅委員智強：我這樣講，我覺得整個註銷護照的程序都要重新再檢討，為什麼？因為事實上應該要有些配套啦！就是說賦予法院主動註銷逃犯護照的權力，同時減少行政機關冗長作業，因為實質上我們在偵辦犯罪也是分秒必爭，對不對？所以因此儘量來增加效率。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：這是我今天針對棄保潛逃這個部分我所問的。接下來要問一下妨害司法公正罪，我想請問，最近沸沸揚揚鄭文燦涉貪聲押，我直接問一個問題，邱太三前法務部長，這個案子壓了7年，請問邱太三法務部長有沒有壓案、有沒有吃案？有沒有去關切、施壓這個個案？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個案子桃園地檢署都已經依法在偵辦，我想這個是具體的個案。"],["羅委員智強：我知道啦！其實我昨天問黃次長，他也沒辦法正面回答，他只能回答他不知道啦！因為你不是邱太三，你不會知道啊！對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["羅委員智強：可是我今天要問的問題其實不是到底他有沒有，這只有兩個結果嘛！有跟沒有，對不對？有施壓跟沒有施壓嘛，對不對？沒錯吧！還有第三種結果嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：不是、不是，我真的也是不知道到底……"],["羅委員智強：對啊！我就用二分法，有跟沒有，我跟你講，沒有就沒事嘛，對不對？像鄭銘謙就沒有嘛，對不對？鄭部長沒有嘛，你也沒有嘛，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：那我先這樣講啦……"],["徐次長錫祥：我自己的事情我知道，我沒有。"],["羅委員智強：那我問你一個問題，這是非常好笑的問題，如果鄭銘謙有壓案、吃案，你有指揮壓案、吃案，我想請問你犯什麼法？"],["徐次長錫祥：目前就是沒有。"],["羅委員智強：答對了！"],["徐次長錫祥：所以司法關說這個草案我們才會弄出來。"],["羅委員智強：今天次長講得太好了，邱太三有沒有？不管他有沒有壓案、吃案，針對鄭文燦的涉貪案，沒有沒事啦！有也沒事啦！這就是今天我為什麼要提妨害司法公正罪的緣故，當然邱太三在鄭文燦的涉貪案有沒有施壓、有沒有關說，我不知道，可是抱歉，邱太三被認證的一個司法關說就是他去關說桃園的檢察長彭坤業施壓檢察官，可是同樣的一個問題，請問這件事情在刑法上構成哪一個犯罪？如果他今天施壓檢察官，檢察長去施壓檢察官是犯什麼罪？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有……"],["羅委員智強：沒有對價關係喔！對價關係是所謂的行賄、受賄啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：我知道。以我們現行刑法的規定，對於關說司法人員這個部分，目前我們刑法上是沒有規範。"],["羅委員智強：對，沒有嘛！我跟你講，第三個案例也很有名，本人也是半個受害人，就是我們柯建銘總召，我就把電話譯文念給你聽，你看看這怎麼關說司法。王金平院長說：喂，找你都沒人啦。柯建銘說：我靜音啦，下午有開啦。王院長說：喔，這樣啦，那個阿煌（就是陳守煌）有打電話來啦。柯建銘說：怎麼樣？他說：他跟我說是那個姓林啦，林秀濤檢察官，他是勇伯（曾勇夫）的人啦。然後柯建銘說：喔！勇伯的人喔！然後王金平說：所以我就要跟勇伯說，然後已經跟勇伯說完了，柯建銘說：怎麼說？他說：勇伯說好，他會盡力，他會弄。然後柯建銘說：勇伯要處理嗎？王金平說：勇伯要處理。柯建銘說：沒有問題嗎？王金平說：不知道，就讓他處理，他說要處理。然後接下來下一個電話就是，欸，請問一下，就是什麼呢？就是講勇伯，說勇伯說OK了啦，處理了。我跟你講這叫什麼，這叫柯建銘去找王金平做司法關說啦！向法務部長曾勇夫司法關說啦！然後再去關說今天承辦的檢察官啦！就是一個赤裸裸的司法關說，請問犯什麼罪？"],["徐次長錫祥：委員問到的大概就是我們刑法目前規定的……"],["羅委員智強：對，無罪！"],["徐次長錫祥：就是這個部分沒有辦法處理。"],["羅委員智強：無罪！我真的覺得很可悲，到最後辦司法關說的這個檢察總長被判刑，因為洩密被判刑，結果所有這一串肉粽、司法關說的人統統都沒事，因為我們的刑法、我們的司法體制，關說司法無罪就是最大的笑話！我現在想要請問次長，平民的老百姓有能力關說司法嗎？還是法務部長比較有能力施壓司法？誰有能力施壓司法？一個開早餐店、開計程車、送快遞的平民百姓，誰有能力關說司法？"],["徐次長錫祥：我覺得要關說司法很困難啊！"],["羅委員智強：很困難，我告訴你，平民老百姓更困難，我跟你講，你說很困難，我告訴你什麼叫冰山一角理論，你知道吧！光是法官關說司法就已經有案例在前啊！邱太三再加上我們今天柯建銘，案例班班啊！但是為什麼今天……像你講說很困難，是你沒看到，原因很簡單，因為關說司法無罪，反正也抓不到啊！今天就是要讓這些關說司法攤在陽光下，而且負罪、加以刑責，才能夠重振司法公信力啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：是，我同意。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝次長你的同意，感謝，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝次長。所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，我們詢答結束。委員質詢時，要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員翁曉玲、傅崐萁所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-37","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","羅智強","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等27\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬\n具「中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對不對事實上有這個情形嘛 對不對知道是沒錯"},{"start":67.515,"end":81.909,"text":"所以現在逍遙法外的通緝犯有多少百分比涉犯的是詐欺罪你有掌握嗎我們目前只有通緝的罪名"},{"start":84.189,"end":103.216,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一"},{"start":104.316,"end":120.516,"text":"根據刑事局統計目前有超過八萬名通緝犯登記在案其中有出境紀錄高達八千人有一半是在起訴後的審判或執行階段逃脫也對我們司法威信跟社會治安造成很嚴重的威脅"},{"start":121.497,"end":139.446,"text":"但現行法制規範是依法逮捕拘禁脫逃者有刑責但對據保責付限制住居限制出境出海的被告有逃逆行為的時候只能夠按照刑事訴訟法一百一十八條末路保證金並沒有刑責所以造成我們現在棄保潛逃者為數者眾"},{"start":146.129,"end":173.365,"text":"也傷害我們司法公正的信任度從此警政的單位也要耗費大量的人力去追捕棄保潛逃的通緝犯所以我們有參照美國的法制的棄保潛逃罪以及我們這個司法改革國是會在2017年的決議增加了這個第一段後項就是將棄保潛逃入罪來提高棄保潛逃的這個法律的嚇阻"},{"start":174.346,"end":198.425,"text":"那麼我要想問一下實際上今天我們討論的不管是妨礙司法公正棄保檢討的刑法修正案行政院從2019年11月到2024年3月已經召開11次審查會這麼漫長的時間仍在審議沒有通過院會提出院版我想請教部長到底是什麼原因院內的反對意見又是什麼"},{"start":199.281,"end":221.788,"text":"我不是院內的那個院裡面的長官反對不是因為棄保潛逃罪那他就是美國立法立的立法的概念那我們實體法是承襲歐美法系的有不正不自正擊罪的原則那這兩個比較不是很很相同的一個法理要結合在一起"},{"start":222.308,"end":245.127,"text":"之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":248.209,"end":271.352,"text":"所以我要特別講說事實上今天為什麼今天很欣慰有這第一理路的往前走就是因為過去事實上對於這個有關於棄保檢討的這個言議就只聞樓梯響不見人下來事實上我剛剛問的問題還不只是棄保檢討罪啦還有包括防害司法公證罪我就不太懂為什麼防害司法公證罪也一樣躺著不出來呢"},{"start":272.435,"end":274.279,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具"},{"start":283.503,"end":301.848,"text":"實際上我沒有看到你們願版啊沒關係我跟你講我現在待會要問法案司法公正罪我先把那個棄保潛逃這部分問完像國保集團總裁朱國榮涉及重大經濟犯罪五億交保卻在去年九月棄保潛逃直到今年二月最高檢韓請北檢啟動廢紙註銷護照程序才註銷了朱國榮的護照"},{"start":307.389,"end":326.722,"text":"那我想請問一下這難怪其實很多人都講說今天沒有七寶潛逃罪啊七寶潛逃就是相對變相的付費逃亡反正有錢人他無所謂啊對不對你交保金就五億他也無所謂啊對不對因為尤其是像其他的包括榨汽飯那個榨汽金額更高的時候更無所謂"},{"start":327.603,"end":346.547,"text":"但是我就要從這個案例來問為什麼針對棄保潛逃的逃犯那通常是由檢查機關發函外交部依照護照條例來廢止逃犯逃犯的護照對不對那為什麼剛我講那個諸國人的案子這個經歷了半年之久花那麼長的時間從潛逃到註銷護照"},{"start":352.261,"end":365.599,"text":"通緝要不要護照從潛逃棄保潛逃到註銷護照大概將近半年的時間這個是由法院跟司法機關他是接到就會通知那個外交部"},{"start":366.089,"end":390.973,"text":"條文修正草案案案件 決定是不是長談呢?我這樣講我覺得整個的那個注銷護照程序都要重新再檢討為什麼因為事實上應該要去有些配套就是說賦予法院主動注銷逃犯護照的權利然後同時減少行政機關冗長做因為事實上我們在偵辦犯罪也是分秒必爭對不對所以因此盡量的增加效率這是我今天"},{"start":392.033,"end":411.785,"text":"三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六"},{"start":421.399,"end":444.707,"text":"這個案子那個桃園地檢署都已經依法在偵辦我想這個是具體的個案我知道啦其實我昨天問那個黃次長他也沒辦法正面回答他只能回答他不知道啦因為你不是邱台山你不會知道啊對不對可是我今天要問的問題其實不是到底他有沒有他只有兩個結果嘛有跟沒有嘛對不對有沒有施壓跟沒有施壓嘛對不對"},{"start":446.308,"end":468.58,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百"},{"start":475.27,"end":476.612,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":494.622,"end":515.765,"text":"這就今天我為什麼要防害司法公正罪的緣故當然邱泰山在鄭文燦社攤有沒有施壓有沒有關說我不知道可是抱歉啊邱泰山也被認證了一個司法關說啊就他去關說這個這個桃園的檢察長對不對彭坤業然後施壓檢察官啊可是同樣的一個問題"},{"start":517.126,"end":523.695,"text":"這件事情請問在刑法上構成哪一個犯罪?他如果他今天施壓檢察官對這個檢察長去施壓檢察官犯什麼罪?"},{"start":528.046,"end":547.84,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第五百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十"},{"start":549.521,"end":561.869,"text":"就是那個我們柯建民總召我把那個電話譯文念給你聽你看看這怎麼關說司法王金平院長說喂找你都沒人啦柯建民說我靜音啦下午有開啦王院長說喔這樣啦那個阿黃就陳守煌啦有打電話來啦柯建民說怎麼樣他說他跟我說那個姓林啦林秀濤啦檢察官啦"},{"start":576.559,"end":596.903,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":603.844,"end":608.848,"text":"這叫柯建民去找王金平做司法官說啦,像法務部長曾永夫司法官說啦,然後再去關說今天承辦的檢察官啦,就是一個赤裸裸的司法官說,請問犯什麼罪?"},{"start":628.442,"end":651.178,"text":"我們委員問到的大概就是我們現在刑法目前規定的對無罪無罪真的我覺得很可悲到最後辦司法官所有這個檢察總長被判刑因為泄密被判刑結果所有這一串漏眾司法官所有人通通都沒事"},{"start":652.895,"end":680.473,"text":"因為我們的刑事我們的刑法我們的司法體制關說司法無罪就是最大的笑話我現在想要請問次長平民的老百姓有能力關說司法嗎還是法務部長比較有能力施壓司法誰有能力施壓司法一個開早餐店開計程車送快遞的平民百姓誰有能力關說司法"},{"start":681.069,"end":707.988,"text":"我覺得我覺得要關說司法很困難啊很困難我告訴你平民老百姓更困難我跟你講不要你說很困難啊我告訴你什麼叫冰山一角理論你知道吧你關法官關說司法就已經有案例在前啊邱泰山再加上我們今天柯建民案例斑斑啊但是為什麼今天像你講說很困難是你沒看到原因很簡單因為關說司法無罪反正也抓不到啊"},{"start":708.869,"end":719.702,"text":"今天就是要讓這些關稅司法攤在陽光下而且負罪加以刑責才能夠重振司法公信力啦是 我同意好 謝謝次長你的同意感謝 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154727","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154727","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db904282d6dfc67afd9160fff40bb8bca63ab2d837d11fc3fab8184ff050374ff9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:52:28 - 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11:52:19","影片長度":"00:08:10","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T11:44:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T11:52:19+08:00","duration":490,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":883,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時44分）主席好，麻煩先請體育署長。"],["主席：好，鄭署長。謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：署長好。剛剛聽您說現在全心全意放在照顧巴黎奧運的選手，現在天氣非常熱，我有看到新聞提到巴黎奧運的選手村沒有冷氣，他說他要環保，用了水冷系統，後來因為各國去抗議、反應，所以又開放讓很多國家可以自備冷氣或自己調度冷氣，讓選手吹，有這件事嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分在新聞上還是要做個釐清，法國的籌備處一開始就開放各個國家的奧會申請租用他們指定的移動式空調，放在選手的房間內。"],["葉委員元之：所以本來就有冷氣跟空調？"],["鄭署長世忠：不是全部，是我們要去租。"],["葉委員元之：你們要去租？"],["鄭署長世忠：對，他有開放讓各國去租。"],["葉委員元之：開放去租。"],["鄭署長世忠：各國自備是指他們有跟大會租，不是自己帶去。"],["葉委員元之：之前媒體報導，好像也沒看到體育署澄清，所以大家非常擔心，因為現在天氣非常熱。目前我們的代表團總共有99位，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["葉委員元之：請教一下，我們現在怎麼處理冷氣的問題？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們目前至少在選手村的部分租了50台以上的移動式空調，射擊的分村每一間都有；高爾夫的部分，大會指定的飯店每一間都有冷氣，目前的狀況所有選手一定都有。"],["葉委員元之：你說高爾夫是每一間都有。"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["葉委員元之：射箭呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：射擊也是每一間都有，選手村的部分我們會租到足夠的數量，選手一定有。"],["葉委員元之：所以是誰沒有？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們的隊職員有可能，當然我們現在還在爭取，因為這個部分還是要跟大會……"],["葉委員元之：99個人50台，有的人應該是2個人1間。"],["鄭署長世忠：我們有一些是雙人房。"],["葉委員元之：但是你剛剛講只要是高爾夫跟射擊的……"],["鄭署長世忠：那是大會在他們……"],["葉委員元之：選手都會有冷氣？"],["鄭署長世忠：對，那個分村全部都有。"],["葉委員元之：可能隊職員有的沒有冷氣吹。"],["鄭署長世忠：在選手村裡面……"],["葉委員元之：沒有冷氣吹會不會影響他們這一次照顧選手的表現？"],["鄭署長世忠：其實它本身就有地冷系統，大會是保證一定會有，但是大家不相信。"],["葉委員元之：那是他講的。"],["鄭署長世忠：對，所以我們才要租這麼多台，但也不是每個人都喜歡吹冷氣睡覺。"],["葉委員元之：為什麼不多租幾台？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們有在爭取，但是這部分還是要看大會……"],["葉委員元之：它有限額，是不是？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["葉委員元之：規定只給我們50台嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前我們正在爭取，他們沒有把話講死，我們還在爭取當中，但至少50台，選手一定有。"],["葉委員元之：至少50台是他已經答應的？"],["鄭署長世忠：教練都有。"],["葉委員元之：他已經答應的？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["葉委員元之：但是你自己也覺得不夠，所以在爭取當中。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["葉委員元之：這樣解讀沒錯吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：對，沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：大概什麼時候可以確定？"],["鄭署長世忠：等到比賽前。"],["葉委員元之：比賽前多久？"],["鄭署長世忠：可能出發的時候。"],["葉委員元之：出發的時候，沒有就沒有了？"],["鄭署長世忠：選手一定有，教練也都會有，這部分我們還在持續努力。"],["葉委員元之：好，第二個，剛剛我有聽到很多委員也有問瓊斯盃籃球賽的問題，我非常好奇，一開始傳出男球員一個人的出場獎金是5,000塊，女生一開始是沒有錢。"],["鄭署長世忠：一開始……"],["葉委員元之：你先聽我講完，一開始傳是沒有錢，後來變3,000。其實我們也有接到陳情，後來一看到又變5,000了，為什麼會這樣？"],["鄭署長世忠：前面四次球員工會跟籃協談判的過程，的確先從男子隊的出場費開始談，只是到瓊斯盃之前，因為雙方的一些因素所以先暫停，但是比賽開始之後，他們也有回應，女籃3,000塊這件事情我強烈表達不滿，所以他們目前多給2,000，但是在名詞上我覺得還是有歧視……"],["葉委員元之：不用你強烈表達不滿，大家都覺得很怪，我現在是問當初為什麼會這樣考慮？"],["鄭署長世忠：談判過程還沒有談到那一塊就先暫停。"],["葉委員元之：一開始為什麼會這樣定？"],["鄭署長世忠：一開始沒有出賽費，後來回應委員們、國體法，我們要求協會只要有收門票一定要給出賽費，所以他們開始談出賽費的金額。金額多少是透過工會跟協會之間的談判過程……"],["葉委員元之：不是，協會自己都已經知道男子是爭取到5,000，女生的為什麼不直接就到5,000？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分我們也跟他們要求男女平等……"],["葉委員元之：體育署補助籃協那麼多錢，對他們都沒有督導的責任嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：有，當然，所以我們介入。"],["葉委員元之：介入？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們第一時間就介入。"],["葉委員元之：不是，這個過程已經造成傷害了。"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：這個過程讓社會大眾跟球員受傷了，女子選手覺得難道我低人一等嗎？而且現在社會那麼重視性平。"],["鄭署長世忠：這是不對的。"],["葉委員元之：你對籃協應該要有相對的處置，而且未來也不應該再發生這樣的事情。這不是看結果，而是看整個過程。","再來，剛剛也有委員提到好像要讓職業球員組工會，這部分我要請勞動部一起上來。組工會可能會面臨……當然組工會給球員保障是好事，可是有一些配套也要做好。比如說，之前還在勞委會的時期，87年有頒布過一個公告，說以下各種行業不適用勞基法，我用紅色圈起來很多，紅字的部分很多實際上後來已經適用了，包括像私立幼兒園教師跟職員，如果說現在球員要組工會的話，請問勞動部，他是什麼關係？聘僱關係嗎？"],["許專門委員根魁：報告委員，以組工會來講，基本上他只要是勞工都可以組。"],["葉委員元之：那要適用勞基法嗎？"],["許專門委員根魁：至於他有沒有適用勞基法跟他可不可以組工會是兩回事。"],["葉委員元之：那他需要適用勞基法嗎？"],["許專門委員根魁：我剛剛有回答委員，就是他有沒有適用勞基法跟他可不可以組工會其實是不相干的，只要他是勞工就可以組工會。"],["葉委員元之：你會覺得他需要適用勞基法嗎？不用？"],["許專門委員根魁：適用勞基法我們有一套審查標準。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，我現在就在問你嘛，因為之前像私立幼兒園教師跟職員當時為什麼沒有適用勞基法，後來為什麼又適用？"],["許專門委員根魁：我請我們相關單位回復一下。"],["蔡科長瑩潔：我是勞動部條平司，跟委員報告，當初在87年指定適用勞基法的時候，有針對一些在適用上有窒礙難行之處的行業別予以排除適用，之後如果窒礙難行的理由消失了，我們就會適時的檢討，把它納入適用勞基法來保障勞工的權益。"],["葉委員元之：那時候是什麼窒礙難行？"],["蔡科長瑩潔：可能要看各個類別。"],["葉委員元之：比如像之前講的那個私立幼兒園教師、職員，窒礙難行的原因在哪裡？"],["蔡科長瑩潔：個別的部分可能要去查閱當初排除適用的理由，但是教師跟職員的部分，是因為當初可能在跟教育部的會商過程中，發現他們已經有一些既有權益保障的規範，所以那時候就沒有將他們納入適用。"],["葉委員元之：可是後來又納入啦。"],["蔡科長瑩潔：對，後來可能因為有人建議，覺得應該還是要適用勞基法，保障會更完善，後續就會進行檢討。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","本席先宣布：等一下在所有人詢答完畢之後，我們就接著逐條來處理今天的條文。","請楊瓊瓔委員，4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員林德\n福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案；四、審查委員陳培瑜等21\n人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案；五、審查\n台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.8915937500000001,"end":3.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.199093749999999,"end":5.228468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.46784375,"end":16.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.82159375,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.399093750000002,"end":20.78721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除試用。那之後如果說有排除自在難行之處的那個理由已經消失的話,那我們就會適時的把他檢討納入施用勞基法來保障勞工的權益。"},{"start":431.51,"end":444.169,"text":"那時候有一些自愛男型是什麼?是什麼自愛男型?可能要看各個那個類別像如果說像之前講那個私立幼稚園教室職員自愛男型的原因在哪裡?"},{"start":444.795,"end":458.562,"text":"二條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":465.846,"end":479.492,"text":"對,那後來可能因為就是可能一些勞工議事可能有建議,那覺得說應該還是要適用整個勞基法,它的保障會更完善等等之類的,那就會後續會進行檢討。OK,好,好,謝謝。好,謝謝葉元智委員。"}]}},{"id":"154725","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154725","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9f8bada16fcded945e6fdecbb7cc8faa7ab2d837d11fc3fabb5c97df5e7f71b625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:37:20 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11:45:08","影片長度":"00:07:48","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T11:37:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T11:45:08+08:00","duration":468,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":37,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-37"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時37分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，次長，我想我們來討論這個棄保潛逃的部分，因為我們也知道國內有不少重大犯罪的被告棄保潛逃，即使逃亡失敗，他也僅是保證金被沒收，他根本不需要負擔什麼刑責。換句話說，棄保潛逃就是指放棄保證金潛逃，尤其我們根據法務部的統計，到目前為止，在五萬多名的通緝犯當中有一半是起訴後審判或者是在執行階段逃脫，所以在我們的現行刑法當中，被逮捕、拘禁的人逃脫有刑責，但是他在案件偵辦或者是審理到判決確定的這段時間，如果說被告逃跑，但是卻只有沒入保證金的一個行政罰，對於目前這樣子的一個社會面向，請教次長，你的看法是什麼？"],["徐次長錫祥：的確這個部分的規範有所不足。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那規範有不足，你們預計要怎麼做呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們針對這個有提出一個草案，就是棄保潛逃罪，就是妨礙司法公正罪，我想這個部分將來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：進度呢？因為我們看到平均每個月有上百人逃脫，那這樣子你到底要怎麼樣去防堵？你剛才說了，這是有不足，那對不足的地方你們在研議，什麼時候會送出來呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們開了11次會，經過專家學者還有各部會的討論，目前已經到最後文字的修正，那這個草案本來就已經在行政院審查，我們在細部的文字修改完了以後，只要行政院院會通過，就會送到司法院。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們預估呢？既然社會大眾都很期待，你們也認為是不足的，藍綠白的委員大家也都非常的關心，在這樣的情形之下，你預估你們大概多久會送進來呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們法務部的立場，我們答應行政院禮拜五就會把文字修改好送到行政院……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：禮拜五送到行政院？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個是文字的部分，其他的草案本來就在行政院，在修改完了以後在禮拜五送去，然後行政院院會還要開會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：禮拜四排院會，那你們預估……"],["徐次長錫祥：我們這個部分就很難估……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不能說很難估，你做任何一個法案，你總是有一個KPI的時程指標啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：之前都在討論中，所以才不斷的修，其實草案的整個架構都有了，現在就是先走行政院院會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，我們要定一個法，當然也不能草率，要符合目前社會的需求，你既然都已經走到最後文字修正的這個地步，那你接下來的動作、時間、流程就更好掌控啊！如果行政院支持你，你禮拜五把文字修好送到行政院，在下個禮拜就可以納入到行政院院會，是不是有這樣打算？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們會努力，因為我們是下屬單位，我們只能努力的爭取。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們會努力，我也希望你這個努力會有一個目標、有一個方向，而不是你下屬很努力，那上頭不支持你，那我們社會這麼需求，那當然這個國家會亂掉嘛！對不對？所以你還是去盤點你的時間指標到底要怎麼做，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：讓社會大眾有一個安全感嘛！對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我覺得一個好的政府就是要讓人民……尤其要尊重司法，讓司法成為人民的信賴啊！對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是，報告委員，我自己就是檢察官，我們在辦案時對這個法律也非常非常的需求。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常的需求，對啊！執行者也需求，現在你認為是需要的，也走到這個地步，所以加油，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，接下來本席要請教，你剛才講到你是檢察官，那我們全國各地地檢署的詐欺案件暴增，這個問題我們討論了很多次，甚至地檢署更增長了四成以上的案件量，檢察官簡直是忙翻了天，在這樣的情況之下，因為案件一直成長，我們看到從107年起檢察機構核增了1,000人，為了執行打擊詐欺的業務，在112年我們更同意檢察官的助理人員250人，所以要請教次長，目前的人力是怎麼樣呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們當然需要更多的檢察官助理來協助，因為他的時效比較短……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以才會在112年特別再核增了250位啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：對，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那現在呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：現在正在進用，現在各地檢署都在辦理進用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：進用的情況如何呢？因為你們人不夠，我們趕快加油，讓人力資源趕快進來，那你們執行的情形怎麼樣呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們在112年是100個，在113年是150個。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，那現在進用的情況怎麼樣呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：100個都進用了，那150個是現在各地檢署正在進用中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要說的就是，我們既然看到社會的面向有這個需求，那我們在執行的過程當中要積極。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我相信大家都知道，缺人的情況很嚴重，因為光是詐欺這個部分的案件就增加了四成以上，所以要怎麼樣提升我們整個偵查的能量，維護人民的權利？我想政府、司法單位是責無旁貸。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我們也瞭解，在責無旁貸的時候，我們仍舊希望不足的人力要趕快補足，所以今年的150人應該很快會在各地去補足吧！"],["徐次長錫祥：現在正在進用中，目前看到很多地檢署都在進用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都在進用中？"],["徐次長錫祥：是、對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一起加油，謝謝。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","接下來請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員。","張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員。","傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員。","接下來請羅智強委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-37","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","羅智強","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等27\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":7.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.24909375,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.180968750000002,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.193468750000001,"end":31.772843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.19471875,"end":36.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.80159375,"end":36.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.88596875,"end":43.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.80471875,"end":60.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.455968750000004,"end":61.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.21471875,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.82471875,"end":78.56721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.95534375000001,"end":81.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.80721875,"end":85.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.89096875,"end":89.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.55284375000001,"end":92.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.86909375,"end":90.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.93659375,"end":91.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.16846875,"end":93.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.29909375000001,"end":100.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.26846875000001,"end":109.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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,{"start":13.66,"end":35.975,"text":"市長,我想我們來討論這個棄保遣逃的這個部分因為我們也知道國內有不少的這個重大犯罪的被告棄保遣逃那即使逃亡失敗他也僅是保證金被沒收他根本不需要負責負擔了什麼刑責"},{"start":37.015,"end":60.777,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":66.244,"end":67.002,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":77.807,"end":99.819,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":100.679,"end":117.37,"text":"卻只有沒入這一個保證金的一個行政法所以目前這樣子的一個社會面向請教市長你的看法的確這一個部分的話規範的有所不足那規範不足你們預計要怎麼做呢"},{"start":118.186,"end":132.665,"text":"我們針對這一個我們有提出一個草案就是棄保潛逃罪就是妨礙司法公正罪我想這個部分的話將來進度呢因為我們看到平均"},{"start":133.046,"end":156.496,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一"},{"start":157.276,"end":185.412,"text":"條文修正草案的本來就已經在行政院那個審查那我們在那個七部的文字修改完了以後那就會只要通過行政院院會就會送到司法院你們預估呢既然社會大眾都很期待是你們也認為是不足的大家也都非藍綠白的委員都非常的關心所以在這樣的情形之下你預估你們大概多久會送進來呢"},{"start":186.132,"end":190.556,"text":"條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":207.691,"end":227.174,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":227.694,"end":255.874,"text":"我們要成立要一個法當然也不能草率那符合目前社會的一個需求所以因此你既然都已經走到最後文字修正的這個地步那你更下來的這個動作時間流程就更好掌控啊如果行政院支持你你禮拜五把文字修好在行政院裡頭下個禮拜就可以納入到行政院院會啊"},{"start":256.254,"end":279.091,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":279.793,"end":306.548,"text":"所以你還是去盤點你的時間指標到底要怎麼做啊好不好讓社會大眾有一個安全感嘛對不對因為我覺得一個好的政府就是要讓人民對尤其在司法尊重司法讓司法是成為人民的信賴啊對不對是 包委員我自己就是檢察官我們的辦案對這個法律也非常非常的需求"},{"start":307.068,"end":326.316,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":334.84,"end":345.707,"text":"檢察官簡直是滿翻的天喔在這樣的一個情況之下我們看到107年起因為成長案件一直成長所以107年那個起合爭了檢察機構一千人"},{"start":352.672,"end":367.603,"text":"為了執行這個打擊詐欺的業務一百一十二年我們更同意檢察官的助理人員兩百五十人所以請教部長目前請教次長目前的人力怎麼樣呢"},{"start":369.383,"end":388.964,"text":"我們當然需要這個更多的檢察官助理來協助因為他的時效所以才會在112年特別再合爭了250位啊對謝謝委員那現在呢現在就是這個現在正在那個禁用現在各地檢署都在辦理禁用"},{"start":389.738,"end":391.42,"text":"一百一十二年是一百個一百一十三年是一百五十個對那現在呢現在禁用的情況怎麼樣呢"},{"start":409.349,"end":422.24,"text":"一百個都禁用了那一百五十個是現在正在各地檢測正在禁用中所以本席也就是說我們既然看到社會的面向有這個需求那我們在執行的這個過程當中我們要積極"},{"start":425.843,"end":443.529,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":454.533,"end":463.646,"text":"應該很快會在各地去補足吧?現在正在禁用中因為現在目前看到地檢署都在禁用中都在禁用中一起加油謝謝謝謝委員謝謝王委員"}]}},{"id":"154724","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154724","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db97c36dd4b96c49a99160fff40bb8bca63ab2d837d11fc3faba0e7bbdf4b47cc755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:35:28 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11:44:08","影片長度":"00:08:40","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T11:35:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T11:44:08+08:00","duration":520,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":841,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時35分）謝謝召委。主席以及今天列席的各位長官夥伴們，大家好。"],["主席：你要請哪位？"],["林委員倩綺：還沒有，我先講一下這一段，然後再請次長跟署長，想說請你們先坐一下。","在進入今天運動產業發展條例修正案的討論之前，本席想分享一些想法，希望能夠在進行這個法案的修正以外，未來再配合運動發展部的成立，讓我們更能夠水到渠成。","接下來就請張廖次長跟署長。"],["主席：好，謝謝，我們請次長跟署長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：次長、署長，你們好。目前我們臺灣在職業運動上來講，應該不算很少，那大概我這邊先……"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實不多啦，職業運動其實不多。"],["林委員倩綺：分享一下，但是至少有。在整個職業的賽事，職棒跟職籃應該是我們最熟悉的；另外，大家可能比較少知道的是撞球跟高爾夫球……"],["張廖次長萬堅：高爾夫球，對，沒有錯。"],["林委員倩綺：另外，比較屬於半職業的賽事應該有排球、羽球還有足球等等。比較遺憾的是，球員有些是用支薪的職業球員，有些是用沒有薪資或者是補貼的學生球員，這是目前的狀況。那當然我們還有很多國際競技表現優異的項目，但是目前在職業賽事上來說也比較難支撐，我這邊針對這個現象做了幾點分析，想先做一下分享。","發展職業運動應該具備的條件，我整理了一下，第一個當然很重要的是國家政策的支持與協助；第二，該運動要有一定的規模與選手；第三，擁有高度競技水準與選手，這也是必要的；第四，具有專業管理人力跟運動商業操作經驗的團隊，這邊特別要講到的是團隊；第五個，需要具備完整的賽事行銷包裝跟媒體傳播的能力，這個涉及整個產業鏈；第六個，我們要有具備國際水準的運動場館及周邊設施，這樣才不會當我們要舉辦賽事時，在設施上沒有辦法完備；第七個，要能獲得充沛的贊助資源跟支持環境，這個我想大家應該都同意。這部分國內的條件還不是很完整，我們知道我們口號喊得很多，但是執行上都感覺很無力，所以希望體育署這邊能夠抱著做大事的積極心態來往這部分促成，這樣運動發展部未來才會比較有動能。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是的。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來就針對本席在這個會期一開始很關心的運動項目的發展，尤其是足球這部分，足球這部分就跟剛才本席所講的，一定規模的選手還有一定規模的團體賽有關。這個會期一開始，我問了有關於足球還有本席參與的帆船，那在足球這個部分，這幾個月我們在跟體育署溝通的過程當中，體育署對於本席的想法都有積極的解答、正面的回應跟支持，這個部分我是肯定的。但是重要的是態度跟做法要一致，遇到問題我們應該更積極的處理，所以本席要談的是，4月1號體育署承諾本席支持，希望女子足球木蘭聯賽今年能從6隊擴展到8隊，經費直接補助縣市政府進行籌辦，那是不是要跟本席分享一下你們目前的進度？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我是不是請署長來回答？"],["林委員倩綺：好的，署長請。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實這一塊我們當時也跟女足的部分球員有聊過，當然工會在場的時候我們也談過，我們不是不支持有更多的隊伍，而是目前的確在市場上的女足球員，強度到達那邊的球員還不夠多，所以她們當然也會擔心說今天從6隊變8隊，那新成立的兩隊的強度可能會太弱，這樣對打的時候，其實也不是這麼的理想。我們持續觀察，正在談，對於是不是能夠變8隊，我們支持但是也希望球員……"],["林委員倩綺：程度上是嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：程度跟人數有沒有拉到這個地方？"],["林委員倩綺：好的，本席其實很投入各縣市，所以我瞭解，我跟你們建議，第一個，你至少動作先做出來，讓大家有機會瞭解，就是公開的公告，讓各縣市政府知道這樣的訊息，至少他們會先有概念，會比我們一個一個推來得有效益，至少大家知道目前體育署要往這個方向走，所以麻煩先公告周知。"],["鄭署長世忠：好。"],["林委員倩綺：第二個，你講程度上的問題，它就跟整個女足員在全國流浪的狀況有點關係。","接下來本席就要來談一下，我們會這樣做最主要是針對將來的世界盃，剩下三年，資格賽大概只有兩年。你們在女足的計畫投入1,000萬，木蘭聯賽也投入1,000萬，木蘭聯賽其實也是國家隊計畫的一環，可是我們聯賽的制度不清，還有教練團干預球員選擇球隊，另外還有長期集訓的限制，導致這樣的狀況發生。剛才你們講這樣的困境，其實這個部分你們應該再整理清楚。體育署是計畫補助單位，應該積極瞭解，朝這樣的目標，將每一步的期程定出來，而不是我們一直去追。行政單位是你們，我們是立法部門，我們追得比你們還積極就不太好了。另外，現行足球木蘭聯賽的主要單位，你們每年挹注2,000萬的資源，但是對於相關賽事的監督目前比較缺乏，資格賽轉會的期程嚴重影響球員，這個部分是不是可以在兩週內給本席一個報告？我知道你們要去奧運……"],["鄭署長世忠：能不能再稍微晚一點？我們最近真的事情太多，真的全心全意放在奧運選手跟帕運選手身上。"],["林委員倩綺：好啦！這個可以體諒。"],["鄭署長世忠：針對您關心整個賽事的結構，之前的確有發生個案，這部分我們的確有介入。在每個賽事結束之後，企業聯賽結束都會做總檢討，做下一次的精進，這個我們都有介入。"],["林委員倩綺：好，報告的部分，你們參加奧運回來大概8月底，9月馬上給本席一個報告，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：好，9月底之前。"],["林委員倩綺：另外，雖然你們在忙這個部分，我先提議，本賽季木蘭聯隊結束後轉會至資格賽的報名參賽隊伍，可不可以讓晉級資格隊員至少有一個月的轉會期間，好不好？資格賽要在年底前辦理完畢，可以吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分我們需要再跟協會、各球隊談，因為之前發生的真的是個案，有它背後的原因存在，有一些誤解，這部分我們跟他們深談之後再給委員一個報告。"],["林委員倩綺：好，那個賽事在年底前辦完應該可以吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：對不起，您……"],["林委員倩綺：木蘭聯隊的賽事。"],["鄭署長世忠：這個應該是……"],["林委員倩綺：可以嘛！"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["林委員倩綺：好，這個部分最主要是希望球員不會在行政失能的情況下被犧牲。另外，長期集訓的邏輯，你們是不是經常會忽略已經在社會上的球員？本席就遇到幾個。這個部分可不可以請你們……好啦！你們9月回來，我本來是希望8月底，9月初可不可以連同國訓中心還有當時倡議的球員工會辦公室，召開相關的會議討論，好不好？可以，好，謝謝次長、署長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們來努力，好不好？"],["林委員倩綺：好，加油。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來吳春城委員，吳春城委員，吳春城委員。","葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員林德\n福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案；四、審查委員陳培瑜等21\n人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案；五、審查\n台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.422218750000001,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.637218750000002,"end":41.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.307218750000004,"end":44.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.96909375,"end":47.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.03596875,"end":49.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.86284375,"end":52.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.64721875,"end":60.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.03846875000001,"end":61.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.97471875,"end":83.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.31971875,"end":71.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.90096875,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.47784375,"end":160.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.66409375,"end":184.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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{"start":455.029,"end":456.05,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":473.022,"end":474.183,"text":"第二十四條之一條文草案案案案。"},{"start":497.23,"end":514.584,"text":"二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"}]}},{"id":"154723","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154723","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9fc4064741d054853398a8850000c6975ab2d837d11fc3fab0bb70b5dcafacf595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:32:54 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我想我們社會住宅的增加是三支鍵包租代管租金補貼對 我跟你講這些是不是都是在增加社宅的提供增供給量對 我們在增加社宅的提供給量那社宅不會只僅是社會福利的部分它是一個廣泛性的對於所有居住使用者的需求我們要增加今天我們第一學中委員在這裡他可以租社宅嗎"},{"start":52.357,"end":52.598,"text":"租賃住宅市場"},{"start":72.699,"end":98.968,"text":"已經變形了,已經變態了,對不對?在購屋市場,房地產金融化,變成操作,對很多人的需求,變成人家可以做金融槓桿可以操作的金融化商品,所以房價高到,剛剛吐成一坪70萬,我這邊歸山也不遑多讓啊,從當初合一住宅的15萬,現在A7重劃區已經是50萬了,15萬變50萬了,那多可怕的一件事,好這是購屋市場,那麼租屋市場最大的挑戰,其實就是非常的不透明嘛,"},{"start":99.648,"end":120.666,"text":"因為我們始終不太敢真的我講我們今天話就潑到底了本期當選民意代表就是要言所當言我們始終不敢面對大家沒有辦法入室申報入室課稅沒有辦法建立市場秩序以至於租屋黑市啊讓很多的房東具有收取超額利潤的空間嘛對不對這就是問題所以我們希望政府在推動居住正義相關政策的時候我們絕對支持大力支持"},{"start":121.246,"end":145.238,"text":"大幅提供社宅給最需要的人有幫助但是其他方面的政策邏輯你也要多管齊下我們今天做修法的理由其實比較的重點是在於推動市場的正常化這個內政部前面來跟我們溝通的時候有講嘛我們現在包租代管的總數量大概十萬件左右對不對這個包租兩萬五千件代管金七萬五千件左右對不對那我想請問一下他們走的社宅邏輯的總共多少"},{"start":148.373,"end":173.386,"text":"也就是說我加入包租貸款但是我是提供涉宅也就是我用相對低廉的租金然後限制身份可以承租這樣的數字是多少?剛剛委員提的那個數字的話都是涉宅的包租貸款對 涉宅對 總共多少戶嘛涉 包租交量總共十萬戶嘛對加入涉宅這個政策總共多少戶?我如果用應該算是用"},{"start":177.469,"end":192.154,"text":"就包租代管欸你們這樣資料查太慢了九萬七千戶啦對不對然後有三千戶左右是一般人一般住宅走包租代管對不對對那是不是表示你你現在包租代管的十萬戶所謂的成效大部分還是增加了社會住宅的供給量是的是嗎"},{"start":192.754,"end":216.836,"text":"可是我們今天修法的重點不是增加社會住宅供給量而是讓一般市場也可以逐步走向正常化換言之這政策設計的邏輯剛剛很多包含內政部來報告的時候包含其他黨委員在質詢的時候有提出若干的一些質疑但我要講如果大家討論的邏輯不在同一個平面上那是沒有意義的我為什麼今天要今天先講這件事情就是因為現在一般的就是非社宅體系的包住宅數量還沒有很多"},{"start":217.617,"end":242.533,"text":"所以我們要先把遊戲規則講清楚今天我們修正34條、38條等等其實是讓包租貸款的業者知道未來的遊戲規則這甚至都不是說紅蘿蔔跟棒子的問題因為數量那麼少其實還沒有開始上路還沒有開始真實要使用的需求可是我擔心的是未來如果你一般的包租貸款也就是一般的房東加入包租貸款也就供一般人任何人都可以承租的這樣的數量一多的時候你的規則是絕對改變不了的"},{"start":244.4,"end":268.85,"text":"我們今天修法的目的就是讓包租貸款業者知道未來在推動包租貸款的時候你就是有申報的義務你就是肩負這個臺灣租屋市場透明化的一定的責任對於業者來講對於地方政府來講對於中央政府來講這件事情變多了那是個事實可是這事情變多是有正面意義的那個正面意義在於未來加入包租貸款提早知道遊戲規則讓未來政策可以推動的時候可以順利好那我現在要講剛剛我們講現在10萬戶裡面有9萬7千戶走的是社宅邏輯為什麼"},{"start":273.832,"end":297.675,"text":"為什麼大部分人加入包租貸款都是用設宅的方式來提供而不是用一般的方式來提供請政府說明一下跟委員說明其實我那天也有跟委員說明就是說事實上目前來講的話轉租的部分我們在去年已經開始9月1號開始已經轉租的部分也都要實價登錄了現在委員的版本裡面有一個很大的重點就是貸款的這個部分要進來"},{"start":298.416,"end":313.177,"text":"那我跟委員報告就是說設宅的代管已經實價登錄了現在唯一的就是一般的嘛還沒嘛一般宅的這個代管這個部分是委員今天要討論的一個重點嘛是好吧那現在的問題是難道不應該做嗎"},{"start":315.267,"end":339.939,"text":"沒有我跟委員報告就是說這些事情我們當然會做但是在做的過程裡面其實我們還是要去理解就是說市場上面對於這些事情的反應是什麼我看到內政部的報告啦你擔心說我修正了之後市場的業者會覺得說我的門檻變高了然後我導致我的意願下降對不對你的邏輯是不是這樣說的可是我更擔心的是現在只有3000戶未來啊如果你的政府各方各面的政策更成熟之後變成有30萬戶的時候請問我們還動得了這個規則嗎"},{"start":343.155,"end":369.917,"text":"更難了嘛 對不對更難了嘛我們是不是要趁數量還少衝擊小的時候先把規則設定好那市長剛剛跟市長剛剛都沒有回答問題為什麼大家都加入社宅而不是一般因為政府提供了大量的補貼對不對有更好的政策誘因所以我加入包租代管的時候我都提供在社宅這個政策平台我才可以拿到比較多的政府補助這是不是代表我們政府在設計政策的時候對於我推廣一般戶啊"},{"start":371.078,"end":395.181,"text":"非社宅體系的政策誘因不足夠應該是吧讓他有比較心嘛所以我提供房子我都是供到社宅那邊而不是供給一般的租戶嘛是啊這也是一個原因啦但是另外一個就是說我們現在整個包租呃代管的這個行業來講的話我們也才成立了對新的嘛新的嘛對不對大家都在磨合對不對那我也是希望所以說這租戶業他能夠很努力的來"},{"start":396.142,"end":415.598,"text":"所以先易後難嘛所以是不是在社宅這部分比較容易也有比較多的誘因可是我講嘛政策邏輯不能只重社宅而忽略市場正常化嘛我們一般的所謂的市場的部分其實在我們的租金補貼的部分其實已經納入了我們未來的政策就是會公佈區間就是這些租金補貼的資訊我們也會納入區間的資訊裡面然後讓大家"},{"start":420.882,"end":443.553,"text":"你走了租屋補貼或一般的政策誘因之後,如果它透明化,很多的房東就會加入包租貸款,因為方便嘛。可是問題是如果你加入包租貸款,你的政策沒有對齊的話就麻煩嘛。我要講的就是這個事嘛。我知道,可是我們現在已經透過租金補貼的部分,在一定程度上也掌握了相當比例的市場的租金行情。我今天花一點時間去講的邏輯就是,我希望市場正常化的政策誘因也要出來。"},{"start":443.933,"end":469.304,"text":"也就是說我現在包租貸款大部分都加入了社宅可是你對一般的我主動加入一般的包租貸款這個平台你政府也要提供更多的誘因跟投資我們現在的做法就是先把遊戲規則確立趁人還少的時候先課予明確的義務啊讓他知道加入這個市場之後要符合什麼樣遊戲規則同時我們今天會用負債決議等等方式要求政府針對這一般戶啊你要有效擴張啊你不能搞了幾年之後還是只有三千戶啊"},{"start":469.904,"end":491.696,"text":"目標要變3萬戶甚至30萬戶,這才是一個成功的政策,讓他有秩序的來進行。但是要跟委員說明說,包租貸款的部分跟租金補貼部分跟社宅部分,我們的政策方向跟對應的target本來就是有些不同,那我們可以再後續我們進一步跟委員做一個說明。細節的部分我們就處理好之後再來討論,但是這些事情並不會不能執行,但我們本席本黨也都不接受寸步不行,好不好。"},{"start":492.076,"end":498.964,"text":"我們沒有說不能執行,我們也沒有說增加行政運營業,我們是希望讓市場能夠穩定,這件事情是最重要的。好,我們待會再詳細討論,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154722","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154722","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db94aceb65a3de259cee6fdecbb7cc8faa7ab2d837d11fc3fab403bed0ec3b6ed555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:30:08 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11:37:08","影片長度":"00:07:00","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T11:30:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T11:37:08+08:00","duration":420,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":37,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-37"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時30分）謝謝主席。請我們的法務部次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長好。次長，其實今天我們立法院正在進行朝野協商，主要的內容就是有關於打詐四法，有關於防詐騙、打詐騙，大家都非常非常關心，但是最近就我們所接獲的一些資訊，其實讓我們非常非常的憂心，因為現在這些詐團，他們真的非常非常的神通廣大，而且據我們所瞭解，甚至他們都可以滲入到主流的媒體，還不是一般的社群平臺，甚至還出現了由我們政府的平臺來幫他們背書，這個簡直是匪夷所思。","在上個星期我曾經開記者會提出來，其實也是要肯定我們第一線的檢調人員，他們在整個打詐上有了一些成果，像虛擬貨幣ACE王牌交易所，他們有詐騙洗錢的狀況，然後已經有32個人陸陸續續被起訴，而且他們洗錢的金額非常龐大，但是後來我們發現涉案的主嫌，竟然可以跟我們三立集團的子公司一起合資開公司，而且這間協助洗錢、幫主嫌洗錢所開立的公司，竟然也可以藏身在三立集團所有的大樓裡面，所以這個部分我們都覺得非常非常的震驚。","在我上個星期召開記者會之後，事實上三立集團他們也有發表一些聲明，當然它是說這是子公司的一個投資行為等等之類的。我們再來看後面的部分，這個詐團在三立竟然還託播了一個節目，叫做「願望合夥人」，這居然可以由ACE王牌交易所獨家冠名贊助，然後把整個這樣的詐騙行為、洗錢行為來洗白。","我們再來看下一個，而且這些主嫌跟三立這些集團一起召開記者會，然後一起做很多的活動，所以在這邊我要求的是，我們應該針對這些詐團他們如何去滲入這些社群平臺也好，或者這些主流媒體也好，其實我們必須要把它追究下去。","再來，這個就是我今天要講的，這個詐騙集團的主嫌，圖片中最右邊的姜建良，他已經被起訴了，他不但在三立裡面製作節目，甚至在我們經濟部的YT裡面去宣傳NFT有多麼多麼的安全、風險有多麼多麼的低，這是在我們自己經濟部的YT上面。而且最離譜的是，你們辦案辦得這樣沸沸揚揚、這麼辛苦，卻在人盡皆知了，一直到昨天早上這個訊息傳出來之後，我們經濟部才把這個節目下架，這個節目叫「經貿！瞭解一下」，到底要瞭解什麼？瞭解詐團嗎？瞭解詐團怎麼樣詐騙人嗎？這個非常離譜！","我們再看下一頁，而這個ACE王牌交易所所推出的區塊鏈加速器，竟然還能夠申請到經濟部中小企業的補助，所以我們要講了，我們今天在朝野協商，我們要協商打詐四法，政府要打詐，可是沒想到在這個case裡面、在這個案例裡面，我們的政府竟然幫忙背書，竟然我們的平臺直接讓這些詐團來滲入。雖然今天經濟部沒有人來，可是我會直接發文要求經濟部要做行政調查，我要拜託法務部毋枉毋縱，這一次的辦案他絕對還要繼續追查下去，比如說，在這裡面包含三立集團裡面有沒有人當內應，我剛才講到這些情事，跟他一起合資，幫他做節目，然後把他的辦公室放在這個集團大樓裡面，那這裡面到底有沒有內應、到底有沒有瓜葛，我覺得第一個檢調一定要繼續地查下去。另外，我要求經濟部去做行政調查，但是另外一方面，我們也不排除有兩種可能，一種是官員很壞，跟他們有勾結，是不是不能排除，所以要求你們查下去？另外一種是官員很笨，被他們騙了，政府都被他們騙了，以為他們是非常創新的投資，所以政府提供平臺，然後也給他補助，不是壞就是笨，可是笨的部分要去做行政調查，壞的部分就要靠檢調，所以在這邊是不是可以請法務部對這個案子絕對不要劃下紅線？我要講的是，為什麼我們陸陸續續會接到一些爆料？也是內部有人覺得怎麼有這種壓力讓他們查不下去，所以打詐一定要毋枉毋縱、追究到底，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我們北檢對這個案子已經分案持續在追查中，本部的立場絕對不會有干預、有任何影響的行為，請委員放心。"],["王委員鴻薇：而且只要有任何的嫌疑，就要讓他們查下去，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是，沒問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-37","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","羅智強","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等27\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.257843750000001,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.320343750000003,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.31596875,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.99471875,"end":16.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.95659375,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.496593750000002,"end":18.289718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.762218750000002,"end":20.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.449718750000002,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.56596875,"end":128.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.25971875000002,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.52596875,"end":166.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.77284375000002,"end":177.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.34909375,"end":179.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.00284375,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.99659375000002,"end":209.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.73659375000003,"end":211.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.18346875,"end":218.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.93346875,"end":236.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.54659375000003,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.89471875,"end":258.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.48409375,"end":261.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.28534375000004,"end":262.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.74096875000004,"end":270.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.51596875,"end":281.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.16409375,"end":283.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.78409375,"end":323.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.38971875000004,"end":325.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.62971875,"end":327.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.57034375,"end":330.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.29159375,"end":334.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.18534375,"end":352.009718750000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11:27:33","影片長度":"00:09:39","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T11:17:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T11:27:33+08:00","duration":579,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":707,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時17分）好，謝謝召委，我們有請張廖次長以及鄭世忠署長。"],["主席：次長跟署長，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員。"],["萬委員美玲：次長、署長，我覺得今天從早到晚，我們還是繼續要罵這件事情，也就是我們現在看瓊斯盃球男籃、女籃賽事的出場費不同，最嚴重的，我看到籃協竟然在這件事情發生之後，它有一個聲明不知道次長跟署長有沒有看到？有關出賽費，它說：「這不單單僅是男女平等的問題。實質平等，是容許事物本質不同的差別待遇。」這到底在講什麼鬼啊？這句話在講什麼鬼啊？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對啊，其實我剛才已經提過我非常不能認同，深表遺憾，然後也要求體育署第一時間……"],["萬委員美玲：我覺得非常的離譜啦！剛才我不知道有沒有誤會署長的意思，因為剛剛在講5,000塊，跟3,000加2,000是一樣的，我跟你講這是完全不一樣喔！"],["張廖次長萬堅：他是說實質上一樣，但是名義上還是涉及到不平等啦！"],["萬委員美玲：這太嚴重，這非常嚴重，為什麼女性的運動員必須3,000加2,000，必須是要妥協之後、爭取之後才有，沒有這樣的事情喔！這件事情今天我要做最強力、最嚴重的一個譴責喔！但是並不是說我們呼籲、我們溝通、我們也不認同，這件事就可以過去了，既然我們一直在講運動平權是國際的潮流，男女運動員絕對不能夠同工不同酬喔！所以我希望能夠在一個月內，拜託次長跟署長能夠提出關於我們運動平權相關的精進與作為，不管是現在正在做的、計畫中的，你要規劃怎麼去改改善檢討，一個月之內可以提出來嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為有奧運的關係，三個月好不好？署長跟我說……"],["萬委員美玲：奧運到什麼時候？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為他們即將要出發了啦，8月回來還有帕運，帕運到9月初才結束，我們會儘速啦，好不好？"],["萬委員美玲：當然奧運、帕運是非常重要的，但是這件事情其實並不是一直都沒有在做，這樣好不好，就是9月1號以前，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們剛才其實已經提過，我們會用扣減補助款的方式跟其他的方式……"],["萬委員美玲：沒關係，我想就9月1號以前把書面的正式報告提出來，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，可以。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。再來，剛剛提到奧運跟帕運，我想也要感謝一下我們體育署，署長上任以後，其實我個人給的評價真的還不錯，我覺得署長非常的認真。在4月份的時候其實我也曾經提案過，因為現在巴黎那邊非常非常的熱，歐洲現在非常的酷熱，所以我們希望能給選手一個良好的環境，現在我們好像已經也租用了50臺移動式水冷氣機了嘛，請問一切都順利嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：順利。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝喔。再來，當時我除了要爭取給我們選手有一個好的水冷機能夠散熱之外，我也問過署長，一樣是奧運規格的國際賽事，帕奧金牌的獎金只有400萬元，但是奧運金牌的獎金是2,000萬元，帕奧只是其五分之一，所以當時我有提出希望能提高帕奧的獎金，當時署長說要修正，在辦理中，不曉得現在的進度如何？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們請署長說明。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，已經到部的法規會這邊，我們正在進行當中，很快就會完成。"],["萬委員美玲：已經在進行中？"],["鄭署長世忠：在帕奧之前就會完成。"],["萬委員美玲：就來得及今年的帕奧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以，來得及。"],["萬委員美玲：當時署長有說要提高到500萬元，但是我個人那時候提出來是要提高到600萬元，請問600萬元可以嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：600萬元。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有問題嘛？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["萬委員美玲：好，OK，謝謝，這絕對是給我們帕奧選手一個很大的鼓勵，所以非常感謝喔。","接下來請教一下，體育署現在在推動常態性發放500元的青春動滋券，第一期在今年6月30號就到期了，我想我們應該來檢討一下成效。我們檢討成效就看到112年應該有155萬名的青年是符合資格的，可是實際領取的只有81萬人，約二分之一，領取後使用的人數更少，只有55萬人喔，只有達到符合資格青年的三分之一而已，所以領用率跟使用率都低喔，請問這是什麼原因？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我是不是請署長來回答？"],["萬委員美玲：可以。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分的確我有看到問題，我們在高中、大學階段，特別是高中學生，都仰賴學校的體育課，他們整個運動的部分的確需要加強，未來這部分的確是我們必須要面對的，從根本上去處理，才有辦法讓這個青春動滋券……"],["萬委員美玲：但是署長，我想我們討論是這樣講，但實際來看，領取的低，他們為什麼連領都不去領？是我們的宣傳不夠還是領取的過程太複雜？這個我們要去看一下，不是只說我們有看到這個問題點，我們也想要克服啊！也就是說，第一個是領取低，為什麼不去領？是不是手續太複雜？還是誘因不夠？領了以後又不用，為什麼？是不是不好用、不容易使用？我覺得這個點是你必須要實質上去注意的，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["萬委員美玲：另外，我們看到跟體育署合作的店家現在有2,563家，但是幾乎在六都啊，六都有1,972家，比率是七成七，非常高，會不會因為過度集中於六都，其他縣市比較沒有，這一點過去其實本席也提過很多次了，我們有沒有辦法在其他縣市再加強一下，然後六都之內也能夠繼續增加？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我想六都以外，大概第一個是他們的國民運動中心、運動場館的確比較少，賽事也的確少於六都，這也跟各縣市政府在補助運動賽事的強度有關係。"],["萬委員美玲：好，那我們再來看喔，現在我們有第二次的發放，現在正在做，有4億元的預算，這個使用的期限是今年的1月到12月，符合資格的有150萬人，但是到6月30號，半年的時間過去了，領的人只有40萬人喔，只有符合資格的四分之一啊，我們是不斷的退步啊！也就是說，我們常態性要發放的青春動滋券就不斷的退步，而且領取之後的使用人數只有25萬人，六分之一啊，所以目前執行預算只有1億出頭一點點，執行率28%，其實可以說成績是非常差，為什麼？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實這部分也包含了今年上半年領券的，因為我們是把去年延長到今年6月30號，所以上半年領券有很多是去年的份，今年還沒有領，不過這部分的確我們應該是要繼續努力。"],["萬委員美玲：再加強一下，好嗎？針對怎麼樣去做具體的改善，本來本席是希望一個月之內能夠給一個答復，但現在是不是一樣在9月之前，好嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個我們已經在努力的腦力激盪，真的，我承認真的不容易，這個部分我們來努力。"],["萬委員美玲：好，三個月內，給個具體答復出來，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：是，謝謝委員。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。再來，請教次長，本席也非常關心我們現在的「班班有牛奶」，我想這是一個好事，可以給孩子更多的資源、更多的照顧，我們都是舉雙手贊成喔！但是以前的「斑班有石斑」是因為石斑沒有辦法再銷往大陸，石斑太多了，就給孩子吃，但是後來也跳票，後來孩子也沒有吃到啊！現在又因為整個紐西蘭進口液態乳明年要進來，可能會影響酪農，我們又說讓孩子來喝牛奶。是不是雞蛋萬一盛產的時候也就要讓孩子吃雞蛋？是不是要盤點一下到底現在還有哪些東西是多的，統統要送往學校去喔！我還是要重申，如果對孩子健康是好的，給他們更多的資源、更多營養，那是沒有問題的，可是我們就要來看一下怎麼樣去確保食安跟品質，這件事非常的重要，農業部的政策教育部來執行，地方政府怎麼配合？請你簡單說明一下。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想我們現在就是已經在請地方政府來算，就是剛才也有委員提到說有的孩子……"],["萬委員美玲：沒有喔，次長，不好意思打斷你一下，現在是教育部就一紙公文下去，要求地方政府要統計一下把數字交回來，地方政府收到這個公文的時候其實也很困擾，因為他把數字統計給你之後到底要不要接受你的這個政策，接受以後會不會產生什麼問題點？如何配送、什麼時間點喝、安不安全，這些東西你都沒有跟地方縣市政府溝通，沒有跟學校端溝通啊！"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有，現在是行政院食安辦，因為那個的發動者是農業部畜牧司，那時候是為了解決酪農過度生產，不是過度生產，是因為擔心關稅問題……"],["萬委員美玲：被影響。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，所以現在是他們整個在主導，我們也提出說我們必須要去調查份數，然後提供不喝牛奶的孩童有另外的豆乳可以來飲用……"],["萬委員美玲：沒有、沒有，我沒有問你說替代的部分，替代的部分我相信大家一定會去考量，不可能這個孩子不能喝牛奶，我們硬要給他喝牛奶嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["萬委員美玲：但是次長，因為時間有限，我不要耽擱太久，我要提醒您一件事情，就是說，我們這個政策要下去，我建議教育部要去找各縣市教育局處的首長來，大家坐下來開會一下，農業部的政策下來，教育部到底可以怎麼樣執行，地方政府可以怎麼配合，團膳的業者、學校怎麼來配合這個政策，才能夠安全的、有品質的讓我們孩子能夠確實班班有牛奶。"],["張廖次長萬堅：報告萬委員，國教署這邊也有提到，因為行政院食安辦開會，他已經透過農業部邀請各縣市政府代表來研商，有研商2次了。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，其實我相信你一定瞭解我要講什麼，如果今天是食安辦，然後農業部主導，但是事實上跟我們教育部是最有關係的，我覺得部分的主導權您還是要拿回來，因為我們教育部最瞭解教育的體系嘛，所以我希望真的能夠儘快，最好能在7月底之前，我不管是食安辦也好、教育部也好、農業部也好，由教育部來主導，去跟地方的教育局處首長及學校做好溝通，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會協助一起辦理。謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案計4案，請宣讀。","一、","案由：","運動員工會是運動員權益之倡議先鋒，鑒於我國運動產業日益蓬勃，職業與業餘運動不時傳出勞資爭議，是否有相關運動員工會可協助發聲，並扮演捍衛運動員權益、倡議制度改善之角色，愈顯重要。","為厚植運動產業能量、鼓勵組織培力、健全運動產業生態，體育署應針對「協助運動員組成工會」提出具體鼓勵與協助措施，並於一個月內明定未來推動運動員組工會之目標，包含各年度應輔導成立運動員工會之目標值等，以落實改善運動員勞動環境。","提案人：范　雲","連署人：吳沛憶　　郭昱晴","二、","案由：","近期，中華民國籃球協會和台北市職業籃球員職業工會針對出賽費進行協商，然而針對商業性質非正式國際賽事部份，籃協表示願給男籃選手每場5,000元出場費、卻僅願提供女籃球員每場3,000元，引發民眾質疑同工不同酬、有違性別平等。","引發爭議後，籃協宣佈除了原出賽費3,000元外、將額外提供女籃球員2,000元激勵獎金；而針對為什麼不是出賽費提升到與男籃相同的5,000元，而是以激勵獎金來發放，籃協指出「女籃士氣有點低落，希望能激勵她們。」","籃協所提出的解方仍引起民眾不滿，質疑「激勵獎金」名目不同、仍非實質性別平等，擔心未來籃協可能以「成績不符預期所以收回激勵獎金」為由調整制度等。","《國民體育法》第21條第5款明定「特定體育團體舉辦或參與具收益之商業性賽會時，應支付選手出賽費。」；另《性別平等工作法》第10條明定「雇主對受僱者薪資之給付，不得因性別或性傾向而有差別待遇」，球員與籃協間雖非僱傭關係，但「同工同酬」之性別平等價值仍應是基本理念；再者，體育署與中華奧會2020年共同簽署的「2014年布萊頓暨赫爾辛基女性與運動宣言」中，亦強調「資源、權力和責任的分配應公平，不得有性別歧視，但分配應改正男女在福利方面的任何失衡。」","有鑑於此，體育署應依《國民體育法》、《性別平等工作法》與「2014年布萊頓暨赫爾辛基女性與運動宣言」之精神，積極督導各特定體育團體，建立實質平等之出賽費、獎金與薪資等發放制度，切勿讓類似爭議重演，並於兩周內提出書面報告。","提案人：范　雲","連署人：吳沛憶　　郭昱晴","三、","本次中華籃協辦理瓊斯盃賽事出現出賽費男女差別待遇問題，已明確違反教育部對於性別平等之核心價值，查本賽事體育署補助費用高達八百餘萬，然體育署針對相關問題僅能以「呼籲」處理。","回顧過去體育署補助賽事活動中，屢次有違反兒少法人員、涉及性別事件人員參與狀況，體育署同樣束手無策狀況，為強化體育署對於相關零容忍事項與其他核心價值之要求落實，爰要求體育署未來應明確將不得有相關作為與人士參與體育署補助或委辦賽事，作為追回行政給付之條件。","提案人：陳培瑜　　吳沛憶　　張雅琳","四、","針對體育署就體育部升格所舉辦之「體育運動政策白皮書暨體育運動發展部規劃」論壇，有鑑於已舉行完畢之場次均未有體育署官員在場，致使民眾提問無法得到具體回應，現場主持學者亦只能回應將問題帶回體育署報告，徒生相關本論壇僅是做社會交代，政府對於民間溝通部分毫無誠意等質疑。爰此，請體育署務必於最後一場次之論壇派請相關管理職出席，以彰政府重視與民眾對話之誠意。","提案人：陳培瑜　　吳沛憶　　張雅琳"],["主席：現在處理提案，先看臨時提案第1案，提案人是范雲委員，有沒有需要說明的？請教育部。"],["張廖次長萬堅：一個月內那部分，因為現在是奧運期間，是不是可以改為兩個月，好不好？"],["范委員雲：好，那就兩個月，希望這次能夠有時間、作法跟基本的進度，好嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，就是配合辦理。"],["范委員雲：期待有進度，OK。"],["主席：好，那就修正後通過。處理第2案。"],["張廖次長萬堅：配合辦理。"],["主席：第2案配合辦理，好。處理第3案，陳培瑜委員的提案。"],["張廖次長萬堅：有做文字修正。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，次長請說。"],["張廖次長萬堅：就是將第二段第三行修正為「爰要求體育署未來應明確將不得有違反核心價值人士擔任體育署補助或委辦賽事的工作人員，作為扣減或追回該賽事一部或全部行政給付之條件。」"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，我們可以討論一下，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以、可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：你們這邊希望改成「違反核心價值」？"],["張廖次長萬堅：它講的是兩性平權嘛，是不是？還有那個……"],["陳委員培瑜：可是我們上面的寫法……"],["張廖次長萬堅：是涉及性別事件，對。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果次長這邊要改成所謂「違反核心價值」，那上面是不是還可以加上一個關於兒少權益，把所謂的「核心價值」講得更明確，或者是體罰零容忍？"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以啦，可以，沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果次長這邊要把「不得有相關作為人士」改成「違反核心價值」……"],["張廖次長萬堅：「違反上述……」也可以，就是你提的這些嘛。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我就加入「兒少權益」跟「體罰霸淩零容忍」，可以嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以，你說違反的那個部分？"],["陳委員培瑜：對對對。我往上加，因為你往下調嘛，那我就往第二段去加。"],["張廖次長萬堅：不然就把「核心價值」劃掉，用「上述事件」就可以了，「應明確將不得有違反上述事件人員擔任體育署補助或委辦賽事的工作人員」，這樣就可以了。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我想要釐清一下，因為每次講到這個所謂「工作人員」的定義，常常單項協會或者體育署跟我們辦公室的解讀就會有很大的落差，是不是這邊可以釐清或者是請署長說明，到底在您的認知當中，或是過往在體育署的補助或委辦賽事當中，什麼樣的人叫做工作人員？或者我們辦公室之前所有提出來這些有爭議的個案，他們會不會又被你們說是顧問啦，跟體育署的補助沒有關係，那是協會自己找的人啦等等？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我想第一個是會務人員，還有它的理監事、顧問，再來是……"],["陳委員培瑜：理監事是指協會的理監事嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：協會，當然是該協會，就是主辦單位它的理監事、它的顧問以及這個賽事中有拿薪資的工作人員，因為會務人員不能拿薪資，至於其他工作人員都是一定要拿薪資的，所以這部分都包括在內。當然我們之前也有問過一些協會，他們是說如果不是他邀請來的，也不是他的人，他自己要跑來，他也會覺得冤枉，但是我跟他說，如果是他的工作人員，你的理監事還有顧問，有這種情況的人，你就不應該讓他過來，就是列為不歡迎人士，這部分我們是滿明確的要求。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。當然如果任何公開的賽事，我如果陳培瑜曾經有相關的行為，我要跑去，當然你們現場也很冤枉，可是如果是如同署長您剛剛說的，在相關的工作人員名單裡面，我們就把這個定義說清楚，這樣好嗎？好，那作為追回行政給付之條件，這一段可以嗎？"],["主席：最後的那一段。"],["陳委員培瑜：作為追回行政給付之條件。"],["張廖次長萬堅：一部或全部。"],["陳委員培瑜：一部或全部，那這個……"],["張廖次長萬堅：就是嚴重的當然可以……"],["陳委員培瑜：當然、當然，但是因為我們這個臨提如果要處理得這麼細緻，我可以追問所謂的「一部」是指多大的一部？全部我當然可以理解，「一部」這個裁量權是交給體育署嗎？還是我們可以明定至少二分之一或全部？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想署這邊會有一個裁罰的委員會……"],["陳委員培瑜：如果署有一個裁罰的標準，但是我很好奇，就體育署的角度，這個裁罰標準有機會量化或者是表格化的說明嗎？細緻化的……"],["鄭署長世忠：這個可能牽涉到類似評議委員會這樣的機制去討論會比較合適，因為樣態真的很多……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯、沒錯，就是因為樣態很多，我才不能接受所謂「一部」，因為5%也可以是「一部」，百分之五也可以是一部分嘛，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：委員，這個我們也不堅持，如果你的意思就是說，反正我們就交給一個評議的……"],["陳委員培瑜：那我們來討論後面再加一句話，好不好？請問評議委員會是誰組成的？"],["鄭署長世忠：當然是我們體育署來召集。"],["張廖次長萬堅：裡面的要點，我請他們來……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那就由體育署的評議委員會召開討論，然後作為追回行政給付一部或全部之條件，這樣可以嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：根據評議委員會的決議，那我們就把這個文字做修正。"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以。好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，就文字修正後通過。","處理第4案。"],["張廖次長萬堅：遵照辦理。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝次長。"],["主席：好，就配合辦理。","接下來我們繼續詢答，請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員林德\n福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案；四、審查委員陳培瑜等21\n人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案；五、審查\n台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3890937500000002,"end":7.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.09721875,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.084093750000001,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.180968750000002,"end":37.830968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.915343750000005,"end":38.860343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.72534375,"end":40.125968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.125968750000006,"end":47.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.08284375,"end":56.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.297218750000006,"end":51.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.96721875,"end":62.265968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.992218750000006,"end":63.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.666593750000004,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.67346875,"end":73.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.41096875000001,"end":108.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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謝謝委員次長、署長我覺得今天從早到晚我們繼續還是要在罵這件事情喔也就是說我們現在看到的窮是被男女賽的出場費的不同喔那最嚴重的我看到藍鞋竟然在這件事情發生之後啊他有一個聲明不知道次長跟署長有沒有看到他說出賽費不只是男女平等的問題實質平等是容許事物本質不同的差別待遇這到底在講什麼鬼啊"},{"start":38.035,"end":55.644,"text":"對阿其實這句話在講什麼鬼阿對其實我已經剛才提過說我非常不能認同生表遺憾然後也要求體育署第一時間發表我覺得非常的離譜啦那但是剛才我不知道我沒有誤會到署長的意思喔那因為剛才他講說就是五千塊跟三千加兩千是一樣的"},{"start":57.008,"end":57.608,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":72.557,"end":79.999,"text":"三條之二條之二條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":101.544,"end":102.305,"text":"第二十四條之二條文草案案"},{"start":118.885,"end":119.025,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":138.902,"end":165.659,"text":"好謝謝再來呢剛剛提到奧運跟帕運我想也要感謝一下我們體育署我想署長上任以後其實我個人給的評價其實真的還不錯我覺得非常的認真那在四月份的時候其實我也在也提案過因為我們現在巴黎那邊非常非常熱這歐洲現在非常的酷熱所以呢我們在對於選手有兩個環境的部分現在我們好像已經也租用了50台的這個移動式的水冷氣的冷氣機了嘛那一切都順利嗎順利"},{"start":166.86,"end":167.641,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":193.123,"end":193.483,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":210.148,"end":210.609,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":231.413,"end":248.635,"text":"應該有155萬名的青年是符合資格的可是實際領取只有81萬人二分之一那麼領取了以後使用的人數更少只有55萬人只有達到符合資格青年的三分之一而已所以領用使用率都低這是什麼原因"},{"start":250.066,"end":250.366,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":269.178,"end":269.878,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":294.264,"end":295.284,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":315.791,"end":327.331,"text":"包括委員我想六都以外大概是第一個是他的國民運動中心運動場館的確比較少賽事也的確少於六都這也跟各縣市政府在補助運動賽事的強度也是有關係"},{"start":328.578,"end":357.077,"text":"好 那我們再來看現在我們有一個第二次的發放就是現在正在做4億的預算那這個使用的期限是1月到12月的今年符合資格我們看到150萬人但是到6月30號半年的時間過去了李德仁只有40萬人只有符合資格的四分之一我們是不斷的退步也就是說我們這個常態性要發放的青春動資券不斷的退步而且使用的人數李仁使用的人數只有25萬人六分之一"},{"start":357.677,"end":363.815,"text":"所以目前執行預算只有一億出頭一點點執行率28%其實可以說成績是非常差為什麼"},{"start":365.837,"end":369.321,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":389.022,"end":392.144,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具 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11:17:49","影片長度":"00:09:02","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T11:08:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T11:17:49+08:00","duration":542,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":658,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時8分）謝謝召委，有請次長跟署長。"],["主席：請次長跟署長，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：次長跟署長好。我想今天我的題目有些前面都已經持續關心了，第一題當然就是明顯籃協出賽費同工不同酬，剛剛兩位都說這是國際趨勢，但是我想提醒一下，這不只是國際趨勢，這個違反法律的問題啊！性別平等工作法第十條：雇主對受僱者薪資之給付，不得因性別或性傾向而有差別待遇。請問次長，這個應該是薪資吧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個是出賽費，不是薪資。"],["范委員雲：出賽費也是薪資的一種嘛！因為這是一種工作，他們的工作是相同的，對不對？所以這個已經違反性別工作平等法。還有體育署，我要提醒署長，您記不記得或者您知不知道那時候您還沒上任，你們跟中華奧會2020年簽署了相關的國際運動宣言，這我就不念了太長了，裡面講到「資源、權力和責任的分配應公平，不得有性別歧視，但分配應改正男女在福利方面的任何失衡」，署長知道簽過這個東西嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個我曉得，不過我們在體育署本身推動的各項培訓、賽事各部分，其實我們都是站在男女平等，資源脈絡是一樣的。"],["范委員雲：你們站在……但是拿你們補助的沒有站在啊！"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分的確是我們這次……"],["范委員雲：你聽起來好像一副你沒有任何的方法……"],["鄭署長世忠：所以這個案例是非常不好。"],["范委員雲：你至少告訴他違法了，可以去檢舉，他如果是在臺北市勞動局所屬範圍內是會被罰款，好嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：報告委員，我們剛才已經有提到了，這個案例會讓我們將來對這些單項協會，在補助款的時候我們會用扣減的方式來處理、來懲罰。"],["范委員雲：對，這樣非常好，就是要有懲罰機制，署長不要每次都說這個是市場考慮之類的，我不能接受。"],["張廖次長萬堅：不會，不會。"],["范委員雲：性別平等工作法哪個企業不是市場考慮？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["范委員雲：就不能夠有性別歧視嘛！要同工同酬。"],["張廖次長萬堅：它可能是市場考慮，可是違反了性別平等的價值啦！"],["范委員雲：對。"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以我們也把這個案例，體育署會跟各單項協會發文，我們剛剛說第一時間發文，請他們以後不要再犯這樣錯誤。"],["范委員雲：好，OK，我相信次長的承諾，因為非常瞭解各方面的法令，那署長也請記得你們簽過的約，做不到的事情就不要亂簽，好不好？OK，好。","再來，我看這個協會的事情真的是層出不窮，泳協奧運選手的遴選到底是不是黑箱？可不可以請署長說明，您知道這件事情嗎？臺大泳后丁妹指控泳協放小道消息，操弄女泳選手參賽資格，以我們學術界也經常在出國開會，沒辦法理解一個中正盃積分算不算可以有這麼多不確定的消息，署長知道這個部分嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員當然知道，而且在這位丁妹在網路上發表她的言論之前，其實我們陸續就已經在處理了，所以後面是有導正……"],["范委員雲：有導正？"],["鄭署長世忠：但我們其實在檯面下，已經處理了很多事情。"],["范委員雲：經過你們努力之後有導正？"],["鄭署長世忠：韓安齊已經確定可以參賽，這個沒有問題，我們要求泳協一定要針對他們的積分……"],["范委員雲：今天如果丁妹不發文，沒有傳聞出來，我都不知道不會叫的是不是就沒有辦法得到公開的承諾？尤其泳協裁判還說他們在背後有好多的努力，本來好像這個中正杯沒有列入，因為他們的努力又列入了，一個中正盃列不列入可以有這麼多的爭議，體育署的說法是本來就有計分，所以體育署的說法跟泳協不一樣耶！現在三種說法，丁妹的說法是泳協放小道消息，從一開始算分後來又不算分、後來又算分；體育署的說法是中正盃從頭到尾都算分；泳協裁判委員會委員在臉書上說原先不算分，是因為我們泳協努力爭取後才算分，體育署，到底是哪一種？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，從頭到尾都算分，我們也一再的跟泳協講，請它的裁判長不要在網路上代表協會發言，這是非常不恰當的。"],["范委員雲：關於泳協裁判委員會，我們助理都去查了，剛剛那位發文的，我們現在不是要指責個人，他的意思是說泳協協會……丁妹跟泳協裁判的講法都是本來不算後來算，算來算去，不知道跟你們的介入有沒有關係，我覺得非常的糟糕。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["范委員雲：讓我們重要的選手，連一個奧運遴選都有這種黑箱，大家都不能接受了，今天如果不是因為他們的發聲，我們都不知道體育署是不是瞭解這個狀況。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個我也不能接受，這塊我一直在盯著泳協。"],["范委員雲：好，但是這種事情我要告訴署長，您上任多久了？"],["鄭署長世忠：一年半。"],["范委員雲：一年半已經不短了，您前面我們都不忍心把體育這麼多問題……當然有些協會可能很不錯，可是單項協會的弊病，我還沒當立委就聽過了，對不對？您前面沒有署長，我們不忍心要次長兼署長的時候處理，而到現在我想請問，你花多少時間跟協會講話，你花多少時間問選手的意見？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，說實在我常常去國訓關心，當然比賽的會場我也是很多場次都會去。"],["范委員雲：我要求你未來跟協會溝通的時間，就是跟選手直接溝通的時間，不得低於跟協會領導可以嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：好。"],["范委員雲：不然這個簡直是……萬一協會都是這樣的話，那你不就是只聽到它講自己單方的意見嗎？今天籃協的問題，如果不是工會站出來，並且男籃讓人非常的肯定跟女籃與工會站在一起，我們還不知道這個錢的事情這麼大。工會的事情，我從110年、111年、112年、113年都要求體育署要去鼓勵，因為教育部的議題太多了，我要講我這次質詢前看你們的回應，我真的覺得你們是輕忽我們立委的要求。","也請次長回去檢討，我不知道體育署是不是中文不好？如果沒有中文不好，為什麼都給我們文不對題的答案？我問體育署，你怎麼有具體的作法鼓勵工會，因為協會是一方，如果工會能夠成長的話，就可以制衡協會嘛，就像我們剛剛講男籃跟女籃就是工會在發聲。可是你們給我們的報告，問你們能夠做什麼？你都跟我說勞動部做什麼，我是問你們體育署可以做什麼，你們都回答勞動部做了什麼。然後問你怎麼鼓勵輔導新工會成立，你告訴我你補助了工會的翻譯，這個叫做鼓勵輔導新工會成立嗎？你是鼓勵既有的棒球工會或是職業工會的翻譯。最後你還跟我們講，你們輔導的運動團體，怎麼取得職能機構認證，這裡面只有職能，好像聽起來跟勞動有關，這跟工會一點關係都沒有，給我們辦公室的報告好像看起來4、5頁洋洋灑灑，簡直是……署長，你們下面的員工是中文不好嗎？還是故意糊弄我們？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，對這個我想很抱歉，我也剛上來，我會承諾你提到職業工會的輔導，我們會正式開會，邀請他們一起來，就這個發展遇到的困難，需要的一個支持，我們請體育署這邊擬定方案來具體支持。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝次長，也要跟次長說，現在工會的組織率在我們的協會裡面，您知不知道現在是百分之多少？就是我們所有的這些體育項目裡面，有協會沒有工會的？"],["張廖次長萬堅：應該有組的大概只有一成而已。"],["范委員雲：我看到的是差不多一成，我關心了這些年一直都沒有成長，所以不要再給我文不對題的東西，我今天就有一個臨時提案，你們要有具體的方式，譬如多少時間成長兩倍，現在10%，多少時間變20%？你就去輔導那些還沒有工會的嘛，不是說補助給已經有工會的做個翻譯就叫做你的業績，然後勞動部做什麼，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["范委員雲：要有具體的方法，否則你就沒有在關心這件事情，好，今天就是這樣，後面就是在展示你們如何文不對題，就不放了，OK。好，那就這樣，謝謝召委，我有臨時提案跟今天的質詢有關的，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員林德\n福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案；四、審查委員陳培瑜等21\n人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案；五、審查\n台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.05971875,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.549093750000001,"end":10.004093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.395968750000002,"end":14.340968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.374718750000003,"end":53.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.11534375,"end":27.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.929718750000006,"end":93.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.26284375,"end"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案。"}]}},{"id":"154716","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154716","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9e79e80634a783e40160fff40bb8bca63ab2d837d11fc3faba44ad80bc68501425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:58:05 - 11:08:26","影片長度":"00:10:21","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:58:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T11:08:26+08:00","duration":621,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":590,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時58分）謝謝主席，有請張廖次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：次長好。次長，我們長期都認識你，你對兒童的教育也非常的關心，在擔任立委的時候，你也長期開記者會來揭露兒童相關不管是虐待、性侵或性騷等事件。這一次臺北市幼兒園發生這起案件，我們非常不捨也非常氣憤，有幾件事情想跟你詢問，剛剛有其他委員問你，說這個幼兒園在民國幾年就廢校了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：去年、112年。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為我剛剛聽你說111年。"],["張廖次長萬堅：112年。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對不對？應該是112年才對啦！"],["張廖次長萬堅：112年10月1日。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，因為我記得111年接獲檢舉的時候，當時第一次是不起訴嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，因為證據不足。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以112年7月的時候又有人通報，再一次啟動調查，才斬獲了一些情資。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有幾點我們都非常關心，你的這一份報告當中，其實很重要，因為你們調查結果有認定他有性侵的行為，對吧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，那個是司法調查。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你們的行政調查。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們有看到司法調查報告。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們現在很擔憂的是，因為光媒體的揭露，其實這一個個案、這一個行為人，他只有承認比較輕的行為，比如說猥褻相關的行為，當然事後我想一切交給司法單位來做調查。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我們還是要再講，包括其實很多的網友都在說，因為兒少權法有規定媒體不能詳盡的報導狼師及幼兒園相關的資訊，造成在111年到112年這個過程當中雖然是不起訴，但是許多的家長不知情，導致陸續送園，將孩童送入到狼師手中。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想羅委員這樣的講法其實是一半一半，如果是基於公益，比如說您剛才提到的，我也擔心其他家長再把孩子送進去，當然他應該要公布，所以我想這個部分沒有所謂不能公布，法令也沒有這樣禁止。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，現在我們來看是往後推敲……"],["張廖次長萬堅：法令的精神不是這樣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為畢竟現在已經是既成的事實，我們認定他嫌疑是非常的重，但是還是希望這個過程當中……我要強調的是，在過程當中除了能不能有效的調查之外，還能夠有效的防堵有更多的孩子在這個過程當中因為不知情，然後被送入，甚至遇到這些狼師，我希望在後續的檢討，我們能夠加強。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想從這個個案裡面、這個過程裡面，第一個發生通報的時候，臺北市政府的行政介入跟司法介入的過程，我們會做一個盤點、瞭解。然後我們也會檢討在中央、地方通報上面，有沒有辦法可以再更緊密，我們在法規的認知上，剛才羅委員提到的怎麼會有家長這樣認為，其實只要調查確定有這個行為，基於公益，他是應該要公布的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想很高興您站在這個位置……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們在修法的時候，事實上之前是這樣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：畢竟您做過不同角色，從立法委員的角度再去看，我希望您現在在次長的這個角度，能夠把我們所認定不足的範圍，甚至在未來能夠防範於未然的這些細節加以補上，有賴你在這個部分再努力，可以嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以，我們努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。另外，看到瓊斯盃女籃出賽費的爭議，在昨天籃協願意提供每場新臺幣2,000元的激勵獎金，等同比照給足5,000元男籃一樣，終於有好的一個結果。但是體育署身為籃協的主管機關，我認為還有可以值得檢討再進步的空間，籃協在主辦瓊斯盃出現男籃、女籃的出場費議題，我想今天很多立法委員都很關心……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員都非常關心，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：同工不同酬的問題，當時籃協的回應說男籃票房好、場次多，應該多於女籃才合理。請問次長，您認同這樣的說法嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我覺得這是一個角度，但是不是一個商業角度，我們還是應該重視到男女平權，我剛才已經提過現在運動非常重視平權，不是只有性別平權，包括我們對帕運的規格越來越高，就是希望能夠促進平權這樣的概念，所以這種講法我個人不認同。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我想在這段時間，體育署也做了許多努力的溝通，但是籃協最新的回應：未及時與教練團和女籃直接溝通，以致於造成誤會。請問一下是什麼誤會？"],["張廖次長萬堅：可能就是溝通上的問題吧！"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，就是溝通上的問題，我想沒有誤會，這就是我們看到結果了。籃協現在表示：出賽費這一塊，體育署沒有補助，是我們自籌發給男女籃的選手。次長，出賽費的爭議，當初如果由體育署全額補助，行不行？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想這是球員跟協會之間，因為有太多的國際比賽，像瓊斯盃是一個邀請賽，事實上它也是國際賽，行之多年，所以基於善意或者好的互動，我覺得協會跟球員之間能夠透過協商，有一個好的……其實5,000元對一個選手，不管是職業或者是業餘也好，鼓勵其實不算多啦！但是它是第一步，我覺得這是一個宣誓，將來當然我們在重要的國家比賽或其他重要的比賽裡面，是不是會去談到這個部分，我們會跟體育署繼續來開會、來研商啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想用其他的名目……"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為比賽真的太多了，我們單項太多了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然、當然，用其他的名目來做協助，未來有沒有機會來做盤點、研議，您覺得呢？我想女籃比男籃少2,000，一般來說一隊12位球員，一場也才增加2萬4，我們乘以10場就好了，24萬……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想我們請署長來回答，好不好？"],["羅委員廷瑋：署長，您覺得呢？有沒有機會？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實這個層面，第一個，不是錢多、錢少的問題，是觀念上的問題，就是男女生一定要一致……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然。"],["鄭署長世忠：第二個，出賽費是我們在國體法賦予協會的責任，就是它有商業賽事、它有收門票的時候，它有責任。體育署的角度是在培訓的部分，我們給它不管是零用金或是各個所有後勤的支援，這塊是由我們來負責。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，所以我說用其他的名目來協助嘛！"],["鄭署長世忠：後勤支援的部分我們會處理，一定。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想後勤的部分給予更加的關懷。"],["鄭署長世忠：這個可以幫忙。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個是我們希望看到的，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想請財政部賦稅署副署長。今天有版本談到運動產業發展租稅優惠的部分，本席看了財政部與教育部的報告，教育部的報告是說：本部原則支持，惟考量營利事業租稅優惠，提高捐贈金額、減除額度的部分以及涉及稅賦，已與財政部研商；財政部的報告是直接寫：建議維持現行條文。次長，請問教育部原則支持是指哪一塊？"],["張廖次長萬堅：原則支持就是我們透過租稅優惠，更優惠、更好的手段，能夠讓企業對運動產業投入更多，這部分我們絕對支持。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那要與財政部研商的又是哪一塊？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們現行第二十六條規定抵稅是150%，因為有委員的版本，蔡易餘委員的版本是250%，就是更提高。我也跟委員報告，在上一屆運動產業發展條例修法的時候，也有各種版本，有250%、有200%，最後是150%，當時財政部有它的立場跟考量。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我想請問一下，教育部跟財政部雙方有沒有就今天委員的版本開過會、去討論，有嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：目前還沒有，因為我們接到……當然委員版本提出來有一段時間，之前有協調過，目前我們有請財政部一起過來。"],["羅委員廷瑋：後續是不是有機會去瞭解一下各委員的版本，然後內部做跨部會的溝通，可以嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然、當然，因為今天是審委員的版本，我們都尊重，方向一致，我們可以接受的就接受；有需要做文字調整，我們就做文字調整。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。副署長，主管機關表態支持，請問能給予什麼樣的支持？"],["倪副署長麗心：報告委員，因為這個條文只實施兩年多，我們是覺得有看到成效，建議再多觀察。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們都希望能夠促成，也希望加緊腳步，你們內部能夠做跨部會的溝通。不好意思，我再借30秒。就體育署的立場，我想問體育署署長，您怎麼看待這次職籃合併失敗的結果？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我想這部分因為職業運動當然我們還是尊重他們之間有一些商業利益的考量啦！我還是跟他們講，希望積極促成他們能夠整併；但如果不能整併，我希望他們在整個市場方面，各個的細節都能夠盡可能達成協議去一致，甚至不排除未來臺灣大賽這部分，當然我們還是給他一點時間去做雙方的討論。"],["羅委員廷瑋：林書豪曾經在訪談有提到過這個說法，他說：籃球產業要發展，首先要有最好的環境、最好的球員，這樣的前提是所有的聯盟可以結合在一起，集中資源，籃球行業才會賺錢，如果不賺錢，產業的發展上限就會非常的低。這一段話跟署長分享，希望我們一起來努力讓籃球產業越來越好，也有賴於你更有智慧的溝通、協助，幫忙整合，好嗎？署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：我會努力的，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：謝謝。本席宣布在萬美玲委員質詢完畢之後，我們就接著處理臨時提案。現在請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員林德\n福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二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、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例五、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例六、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例七、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例八、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例九、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例十、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條"},{"start":45.234,"end":45.795,"text":"三條之一條之二條之一條之一條"},{"start":63.352,"end":89.774,"text":"對對對對因為我記得一一他被接獲檢舉的時候當時第一次是不起訴嘛所以一二的七月的時候又再一次有人通報再一次啟動調查才斬獲了一些情資那有幾點我想我們都非常關心喔你的這一份報告裡面當中其實很重要因為你們調查結果有認定他有性侵的一個行為對吧"},{"start":92.174,"end":113.865,"text":"對那個是司法司法調查你們的行政調查我們認就是有看到那個司法調查報告對對那目前我們現在很擔憂的是因為光媒體的揭露啦其實這一個個案這個行為人他只有去呃承認比較輕的行為比如說猥褻相關的一個行為"},{"start":114.785,"end":143.587,"text":"當然事後我想一切交給司法單位來做調查但是我們還是要再講的是包括其實很多的網友都在說因為兒少全法有規定媒體不能詳盡的報導狼屍及幼兒園相關的資訊造成我們111年到112年這一個過程當中雖然是不起訴但是許多的家長不知情導致陸續送援然後將孩童送入到狼屍當中"},{"start":144.488,"end":144.728,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":162.711,"end":178.103,"text":"三條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條"},{"start":189.912,"end":216.626,"text":"我想從這個個案裡面這個過程裡面第一個發生通報的時候然後臺北市政府的行政介入跟司法介入的過程我們做一個盤點就了解然後呢我們也會檢討在中央跟地方通報上面那有沒有辦法可以再更緊密然後我們在法規的認知上剛好羅委員提到的怎麼會有家長這樣認為其實只要調查確定有這個行為那基於公益他是應該要公佈的"},{"start":217.867,"end":220.749,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具 «運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文"},{"start":241.866,"end":246.069,"text":"三條之二條之二條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":265.083,"end":277.524,"text":"二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":280.166,"end":301.277,"text":"我覺得這是一個角度但是不是一個商業角度就是說我們還是應該重視到男女平權我剛才已經提過現在運動非常重視平權不是只有性別平權包括我們對奧運、帕運的規格越來越高就希望能夠促進平權的這樣的概念所以這種講法我個人不認同"},{"start":301.817,"end":312.313,"text":"好,那我想在這段時間呢體育署也做了許多的努力溝通齁但是藍鞋最新的一個回應未及時與教練團和女藍直接溝通以至於造成誤會請問一下是什麼誤會"},{"start":314.644,"end":332.945,"text":"這可能就是溝通上的問題吧就是溝通上的問題我想沒有誤會這就是我們看到結果了嘛那藍鞋現在表示出賽費這一塊體育署沒有補助是我們自籌發給男女藍的選手市長出賽費的爭議當初如果由體育署全額補助行不行"},{"start":334.497,"end":356.286,"text":"三條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":362.668,"end":373.036,"text":"三條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":374.511,"end":377.192,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":401.383,"end":402.264,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":421.321,"end":435.094,"text":"三條之二條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":443.154,"end":468.229,"text":"今天有版本談到運動產業發展租稅優惠的部分本席看了財政部與教育部的報告教育部的報告是說本部原則之詞為考量盈利事業租稅優惠提高捐贈金額減除額度的部分以及涉及稅負已與財政部言商財政部的報告是直接寫建議維持現行條文次長請問教育部原則之詞是指哪一塊"},{"start":469.042,"end":469.503,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":482.967,"end":506.011,"text":"當然我們現在的現行26條是規定是底稅是150%那因為我們版本有委員的版本蔡委員的版本是250%對就是更提高那我也跟委員報告在上一屆上一屆運動產業發展條例在修法的時候也有各種版本有250%有200%最後是150%對那當時財政部有他的立場跟考量"},{"start":506.311,"end":510.822,"text":"所以我想請問一下教育部跟財政部雙方有沒有就今天委員的版本開過會去討論有嗎?"},{"start":514.755,"end":543.106,"text":"目前還沒有因為我們接到當然委員版本提出來有一段時間但是之前有協調過那目前我們有請財政部一起過來後續是不是有機會去了解一下各委員的一個版本然後內部做一個溝通跨部會的溝通因為今天是省委員的版本我們都尊重方向一致我們可以接受的就接受那有需要做文字調整我們就做文字調整那副組長主管機關表態支持請問能給予什麼樣的一個支持"},{"start":546.544,"end":562.039,"text":"條文子實施兩年多,我們是覺得有看到成效,我們建議再多觀察。我們都希望能夠促成,也希望加緊腳步,你們內部能夠做跨部會的溝通。就體育署的立場,我想問體育署署長,您怎麼看待這次職籃合併失敗的結果?"},{"start":568.786,"end":569.546,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":592.372,"end":618.441,"text":"我想林書豪曾經在訪談過有提到這個說法他說籃球產業要發展首先要最好的環境最好的球員這樣的前提是所有的聯盟可以結合在一起集中資源喔籃球行業才會賺錢如果不賺錢產業的發展上限就會非常的低我們希望這段話跟署長分享我們一起來努力讓我們的籃球產業越來越好也有賴於你更有智慧的溝通協助那幫忙整合好嗎署長這我會努力的好謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"154715","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154715","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9239eab83bed9e523e6fdecbb7cc8faa7ab2d837d11fc3fab4e6b963910a1f12d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:48:31 - 11:05:46","影片長度":"00:17:15","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:48:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T11:05:46+08:00","duration":1035,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":37,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-37"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":522,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時48分）請次長還有警政監。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：兩位好。我先請教一下次長，次長，我們來看一下，我想次長一定非常清楚，一個案子在偵辦而被告沒有達到羈押必要的時候，這時候我們可能會用交保的方式，希望他將來能夠順利到庭，讓訴訟能夠順遂，但是我們也知道，對有錢人來說，這個交保金額其實相較他的資產並沒有辦法達到要求他將來順利到庭的可能性，目前也沒有任何刑罰。","我想請次長看一下，這4個人你認識哪一個？我想至少有一個你會認識。"],["徐次長錫祥：朱國榮啊，第二個認識啦。"],["吳委員宗憲：第二個。第一位你不認識嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：這是羅福助，第三個是羅福助，第一個跟第四個……"],["吳委員宗憲：第一個是井天博，應該認識。"],["徐次長錫祥：井天博。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，我們應該都認識。這些人現在去哪裡了，你知道嗎？有沒有掌握？"],["徐次長錫祥：都是媒體報導的。"],["吳委員宗憲：什麼？"],["徐次長錫祥：朱國榮的部分是警政署這邊掌握的，其他的我們不是很清楚，都是傳說的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想這個也不容易知道啦，畢竟地檢署這邊是發布通緝。從這邊我們可以看出一個共同點，這些人其實是案件還在審理中人就跑掉了，臺灣變成有錢人的犯罪天堂，因為我們的交保金額其實跟很多國家比起來算很低的，尤其是對於這些人犯罪所得這麼高，其實這個交保金額是非常非常低，對於有一些人的交保金額一、兩千萬，其實是在羞辱他，因為一、兩千萬對他來說是非常低的金額，尤其像這4個人裡面，有的獲利是非常高、幾十億的，像這種狀況下，其實一兩千萬、幾百萬，或是5億這種交保金額對他來說，他都不會當作是一個損失。","其實我在上任不久後，2月中我就有跟羅智強委員一起主張，我們應該要修法解決這個問題、應該要新增棄保潛逃罪，因為目前我們國家有五萬多個通緝犯，有一半是在起訴之後，在審判或者是他在面臨執行之前就跑掉了，前年有1,267位，去年光是1月到8月就八百多位，所以每個月有上百個人脫逃，目前都沒辦法有效的防範。因為對於脫逃的人來說，他們的成本就是他的保證金被你沒收，甚至很多人的那個金額是低到，他不跑可能會覺得對不起自己，所以他就跑掉；有一些人尤其是經濟犯罪，他的犯罪所得非常高，他的犯罪所得也早就匯到國外去了，這時候他跑掉了，他其實在國外享受人生，被害人根本也無從去求償，這個就是為什麼我們一直主張棄保潛逃罪一定要訂的原因。最近有幾個案子，譬如說im.B、郭哲敏的洗錢案，這些是不是又會有這個狀況發生？","其實被害人一點都不在意被告能判多久，他只在意自己的錢拿不拿得回來，結果今天對檢方而言很輕鬆，我就寫一個通緝的簽呈，發布通緝之後這個案子就跟我無關，從此也不會掛在未結案的案號裡面，可是當事人其實心裡很難過，因為他的錢從此就都拿不回來，這個案子對檢方而言，也等於是放到冷凍庫冰起來的意思，我想次長也一定很瞭解這樣的情況。所以我們才會一直主張，我們真的還是要趕快透過修法去對這些人，除了保證金沒收之外，還是可以對他課以其他的責任。","我想請問一下，目前法務部防止棄保潛逃有什麼具體作法？因為我看你們今天的報告也沒有提到具體的措施，簡單來說，到底法務部目前有什麼防逃機制？"],["徐次長錫祥：我想召委最瞭解我們檢方的偵查實務，科技監控大概是以前我們剛開始當檢察官時比較多的設備，如果將來我們設計這個草案，他違背了我們監控的一些作法，一樣就會有……就是我們可以及時發現，而且他就會成立犯罪，這個對於防逃就會更加嚴密。如果是委員講到立法，剛才好像也講過很多次了，我們現在做文字修正送到行政院，院會通過以後就會會銜司法院，然後就會送到大院來。至於草案，我們在說明裡面有寫，這個部分加上科技監控、加上棄保潛逃罪的話，我們的防衛會更加地嚴密。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。次長有提到科技監控，我就舉一個例子，以科技監控來看，我覺得目前也是成效不彰，以112年為例，我們編列了3,811萬8,000元的預算，但是到112年8月底才受理22件，你看一下簡報上面這個數字……"],["徐次長錫祥：對，沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們編了幾千萬，只有少數幾件。再來，我們剛剛提到了去年1月到8月就有800個通緝犯，到8月底受理22件，這個數字差距其實滿大的。再來，科技監控中心在110年度購置了電子手環、腳鐐、居家讀取器、個案的手機，總共分別是550組、220組、110組及330組，也就是說，幾乎所有的設備都是在閒置的狀態。我們花了那麼多錢，使用上又加了很多的侷限性，難怪犯罪的人還是跑掉，因為我們雖然講得很好聽，說我們會使用科技監控來防逃，但是我們使用科技監控的數字與通緝犯增加數字的比例，第一個，比例真的是差距很遠；第二個，我們編了很多錢買了很多設備，但是都沒有用，都放在那裡。就這個部分，法務部有什麼想法？是因為法規的問題，還是什麼問題？如果是法規的問題，有沒有修法的想法？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們都是實務界來的，感覺起來目前對於比較矚目、比較重大的案件，會比較選擇用替代羈押，一般像我們的通緝，數量很大，很多都是傳不到，他沒住在那裡、搬家，或是房東不租給他，他跑掉了，所以我們當時通緝的確就會……這個條件具備，我們就通緝了，通緝是很簡單，就會構成。但是這種設備的話，它的確是比較嚴謹，有一些特定的案件我們才比較會使用，這個我們有努力的空間，這是的確的。買這麼多設備，就要好好地使用，我們也會訓練、溝通……"],["吳委員宗憲：這樣講沒錯，就是現在通緝其實很簡單，檢察官傳拘不到、掛傳不到之後，就可以去通緝，但是這個不是理由，否則你為什麼編那麼多預算、買那麼多組設備？如果這個使用率這麼低的話，你當初在預算編列的時候，就不用有的、沒有的加起來買了快1,000組吧。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：那就沒有這個必要，因為我們才用22個。"],["徐次長錫祥：是，我剛才講過，這個絕對有努力的空間，應該加強宣導、訓練。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，再麻煩你們瞭解一下。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來，有關護照的部分，今天我看很多人有提到護照的問題。之前2月2日在高檢署有召開一個判決確定案件外逃人犯註銷護照精進作為的會議，其實這個會議有說到「時」、「刑」、「案」、「逃」等4個標準。我也不為難次長，「時」就是時程，要判決確定；「刑」就是刑度，也就是六個月或更重之罪，未為緩刑之宣告；「案」就是重大案件，譬如檢方重大刑案注意事項第二點的重大案件或是重大的經濟案件這一類的；「逃」就是尚未執行或執行未畢，且經通緝外逃者。當時這個會議主要是這4個點。我想請教一下，註銷護照有辦法防逃嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：他在國外沒有我們的護照，就沒有辦法移動。"],["吳委員宗憲：我請問一下，這3年內有多少人是因為護照被註銷之後，我們順利地把他抓回來受審或者執行？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們有發函註銷326個人的護照，但是目前並沒有統計因為註銷以後，他被遣返回來的數字。"],["吳委員宗憲：目前沒有？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有，應該是沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：我手上得到的資料也是沒有，這變成沒有效果了，當然註銷護照的目的是希望他能夠順利回來受審或是執行嘛……"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：可是似乎這幾年註銷護照並沒有達到效果，這幾年根本沒有人因為這樣子緝獲回來，所以我們是不是還要再想看看有沒有其他方式，我希望法務部能夠在一個月內就棄保潛逃這個議題提出幾個說明，第一個是目前法案研議的進度怎麼樣，有沒有一些精進的方式？第二個，有沒有增加棄保潛逃罪，或是認為到底有必要還是沒有必要？第三個，在法案通過前的過渡時期有哪些防逃機制？第四個就是護照註銷的成果；我希望你們給我的數據是目前註銷幾個人的護照？因為註銷護照而緝獲多少人？逃亡的人數有沒有因此而下降？我希望一個月內能夠給我這些資料。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：不好意思，我再請教一下警政署署長，我們用朱國榮的案子來說，朱國榮好像是4天沒到派出所報到，發現他跑掉才通知法院，我想請問一下警政署對這個狀況有沒有什麼改善？4天耶！4天人已經不知道跑去哪裡了。"],["蔡警政監坤益：針對這個狀況，他沒有按照時間來就要立刻反映，刑事局事實上也有一些相關通報機制，這一件確實是疏失，我們經過這件事之後也有做內部檢討，並通令如果沒有遵期來報到的話，一定要立刻反映，這部分是內部檢討的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，內部檢討是一回事，這樣好不好，你們在兩週內提出一個檢討報案改善措施，因為朱國榮這個案子是4天沒有來才通知法院，其實他當天沒有來，你們是不是就應該針對一些重要案子去聯繫？聯繫不上的話，你們就要有警覺，麻煩你們兩週內要給我檢討報告還有改善措施。也要麻煩你們清查一下，目前有多少被告是定期要到派出所報到的？一些相關的SOP要趕快建立起來，好不好？"],["蔡警政監坤益：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後我跟次長說明一下，剛剛吳思瑤委員講的那個，我覺得他講的東西跟我國法制還是有些不一樣啦！因為他提到幾個像是武器不平等，這其實是我們常用的法律專有名詞，用在這個地方的話，他的用法好像不太對。","另外，他說大法官比較對立法院厚愛，所以這個可以不用開庭的還讓你開庭，表示對你好，我覺得邏輯不是這樣，邏輯應該是，只要開庭，當事人都享有一些訴訟上的權利，應該在什麼時候通知，或是開庭的時候有什麼樣的訴訟權利，我覺得應該是要這樣想，而不是說本來可以不用開庭，所以只要開庭就是對你好，我剛剛在那邊聽，覺得邏輯怪怪的，而且他剛剛又一直講，一邊3個律師一邊12個律師，然後這12個律師是4個機關共用時間，我覺得這說法也很怪，在我們法律人的立場，我們看的是訴訟標的，4個機關跟立法院之間的訴訟標的不同，訴訟標的不同，原本就是不同案件，所以我們應該是從這個角度去看他到底要請幾個律師，而不是說用那種很法盲的角度說：12個律師放在一起共用時間，所以這個是對立法院好。所以你們剛剛也不要這樣子……好啦，這個我也不為難啦！我只是跟你們講一下，一個案子請3個律師是上限，這沒有錯，但是在面對4個機關、4個不同的訴訟標的時，其實是不同的案子，我們主張所謂的武器平等或不平等是從這個角度出發去思考，這是法律人的思考角度，由不懂的法盲去這樣子胡扯、亂帶風向，我是不喜歡這樣子，其實我來這裡很不喜歡去打臉一些不懂法律又在愛這裡講法律的人，但是都在我面前一直這樣，我知道你的目的是什麼的時候，我就不得不說，我的習慣也是這樣，我講的東西你都可以來挑戰我，我認為4個機關是不同訴訟標的，你混在一起說他可以請12個律師，這邊3個，然後說什麼12個共用一個時間，我覺得講這個都是外行話，這其實沒有意思啦！","昨天他又講，為什麼來質詢的範圍跟今天會議題目不一樣？昨天才罵完，今天他到這裡又做了一個跟今天題目不一樣的質詢，我覺得為什麼大家都可以昨非今是？我沒有辦法理解這些政客們在想什麼。好，謝謝次長和警政監。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：好，因為還要溝通，我們就休息5分鐘，5分鐘後處理臨時提案，謝謝。","休息（11時6分）","繼續開會（11時22分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","處理臨時提案，共兩案，請一併宣讀，宣讀後再逐案處理，請宣讀。","一、","案由：","我國現有針對揭弊保護之規範，散見於「證人保護法」、「食品安全衛生管理法」、「食品安全衛生檢舉案件處理及獎勵辦法」、「勞動基準法」及「金融控股公司及銀行業內部控制及稽核制度」等等；惟該揭法令對保護對象及適用情事均有所不同，或僅屬行政命令層級，整體而言仍有欠周延，然而法務部的揭弊者保護法草案卻仍擱置在行政院多年，遲遲未能通過。","有鑑於近年來食安、公害、金融及瀆職弊案層出不窮，且制定揭弊者保護專法為反貪腐之重要機制，亦為國際間衡量國家廉能之重要指標，為落實保障揭弊者權益，並儘速建立專法將揭弊者權益保護明文化，以提供揭露不法資訊者全面性之保護機制，爰提案要求法務部於兩個月內，與行政院積極溝通並讓行政院版儘速通過並送進立法院審議；若通過未果，亦應於兩個月後將其揭弊者保護法草案於法務部官網上公告。","提案人：吳宗憲　　黃國昌　　羅智強","二、","依國際人權公約及刑事訴訟法無罪推定原則，法院對未聲請羈押及未受羈押者實施科技設備監控，應兼顧人權保障及公共利益，並應確保手段符合比例原則，且應有具體規定統一公告。然現行科技監控手段並無具體標準，全依法官心證，易發生不符比例原則或逾越必要之監控情節。故請司法院研議修正「刑事被告科技設備監控執行辦法」，依所涉犯罪之情節，依比例原則具體規定電子腳鐐、電子手環、手機監控等不同辦法應適用何種犯罪行為人，尤其對於暴力犯罪及一般犯罪應有所區隔。","提案人：羅智強　　王鴻薇　　林思銘　　傅崐萁"],["主席：謝謝，針對臨時提案第一案，請問機關有無其他意見或說明？"],["徐次長錫祥：主席、各位委員。臨時提案第二段的倒數第三行的「若通過未果，亦應於兩個月後將其揭弊者保護法草案於法務部官網上公告」，這跟我們的行政體制不是很吻合，希望委員能夠再思考一下，因為法案在行政院，我們下級機關不方便在行政院沒有同意之下就把它逕行公告，這樣子我們法務部的立場會非常的為難，謝謝委員，是不是能把它刪除？"],["主席：請問各位委員，有沒有意見？"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：同意啦！"],["主席：好，如果各位委員同意的話，臨時提案第一案就依照修正後的文字通過。現在處理臨時提案第二案，請問臨時提案第二案的提案人有無提案說明？沒有，好。請問機關有無補充說明？"],["朱法官嘉川：司法院報告，考量有關科控的主要目的是在防逃，所以關於委員的關心，我們非常感謝，後段的「依所涉犯罪的情節……」，這部分似乎跟科控的主要目的不太一樣，因為科控不太適合以所犯的罪名或犯罪情節來做一個判準，所以我們建議，如果要有這個提案的話，至少我們把它改成是「依被告逃亡之風險程度……」；最後面的「尤其對於暴力犯罪及一般犯罪應有所區隔」，這個部分也跟剛剛所講的標準，好像有一點扞格。如果委員很關心這部分，是不是我們把它改軟一點，就是把它改成「並考量暴力犯罪及一般犯罪是否有所區隔」，以這樣的文字來呈現。","最後要講一個重點，因為這個法規命令其實不是只有司法院的獨立權責而已，還有涉及到跟法務部會銜的問題，這部分是不是也容許我們內部跟法務部先有一個開會研議這樣的時間？我們本來是想爭取先以書面報告來提出我們開會的結論，接著我們再進一步來決定是不是有這樣子的一個必要，如果委員容許的話，看起來這個臨時提案，如果只是要我們研議修正，就是請司法院研議修正的話，似乎我們確認一下也是基於這樣的意旨，則請給我們一點時間，讓我們內部跟法務部有研議修正這樣的一個時間，不一定馬上就急著提出這樣一個修法，如果是這樣子的臨時提案，我們是勉強可以接受，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝朱法官。請問各位委員，機關希望能夠做如上的修正，各位委員是否同意？有無異議？"],["王委員鴻薇：報告主席，基本上，他所做的文字修正，我都沒有什麼意見，就是可以按照司法院的意見來修正。","另外我想請教的是，因為我這個提案內容也是請你們研議修正，所以你們跟法務部再來開會討論，這都沒有問題，只是如果是這樣的話，你們可不可以大致跟我們講一個時間，因為你們本來說可以到下會期，所以可不可以大致跟我們講一個時間？剛才溝通的時候，其實司法院事實上現在也準備要來做一些修正，對不對？可以嗎？"],["朱法官嘉川：是不是委員可以給我們3個月的時間？"],["王委員鴻薇：可以，沒問題。"],["朱法官嘉川：謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是請司法院研議修正，那不用……"],["林委員思銘：3個月提出書面的修正報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：然後最後的部分修正為「3個月內提出修正報告」，可以嗎？"],["沈委員發惠：3個月後提出書面報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，「3個月後提出書面報告」，如果是這樣，報告主席，我們就在最後加上「3個月後提出書面報告」，你們OK吧？好的。"],["主席：「3個月後」還「3個月內」？"],["王委員鴻薇：「3個月內」，「3個月後」就太久了。"],["主席：請問各位委員，剛剛王鴻薇委員所提的建議及機關所提的意見，就是我們對臨時提案第二案作修正，請問各位委員有無異議？（無）沒有異議的話，臨時提案第二案依照討論後修正文字通過。","下一位我們請王鴻薇委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-37","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","羅智強","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等27\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.8153437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.21596875,"end":7.337843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.67909375,"end":11.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.20221875,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.719718750000002,"end":21.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.563468750000002,"end":27.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.95909375,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.65096875,"end":53.963468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.18659375,"end":30.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.418468750000002,"end":31.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.284093750000004,"end":58.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.43534375,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.66534375,"end":71.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.81721875000001,"end":73.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.83409375000001,"end":72.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.80846875,"end":75.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.16659375,"end":78.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.17909375,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.79471875,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.05596875,"end":83.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.86596875000001,"end":85.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.48159375,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.21971875,"end":94.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.47596875,"end":96.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.16346875,"end":98.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.63971875,"end":102.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.62659375000001,"end":105.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.30534375,"end":107.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.09846875000001,"end":109.53284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":488.729,"end":510.59,"text":"二）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":511.169,"end":527.351,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":527.751,"end":530.853,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十"},{"start":556.972,"end":557.272,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具"},{"start":580.638,"end":598.547,"text":"那這再麻煩你們瞭解一下然後再來就是有關護照的部分因為今天我看到很多人有提到護照的這個問題那我們之前那個2月2號在高檢署有召開一個判決確定案件外逃人犯註銷護照經營作為的會議那這時候其實會議有說到幾個實行案逃這四個標準"},{"start":609.724,"end":631.634,"text":"那我也不為難次長啦,時就是時程嘛,要判決確定,刑就是刑度,就是六個月或更重之罪,未違反刑的宣告。案就是要重大案件,比如說我們檢方的重大刑案的注意事項,第二點的重大案件或是經濟重大的經濟案件這一類的,那個頭就是已經未執行或執行完畢。"},{"start":633.11,"end":645.025,"text":"或執行未完畢然後通緝外逃的。」好 那我們當時這個會議是主要是這四個點啦 那我想請教一下 這個註銷護照有什麼 有 有 有辦法防逃嗎他"},{"start":650.865,"end":678.617,"text":"他沒有在國外的話沒有我們的護照他就沒有辦法移動那我請問一下齁這幾年有我們講去這三年內有多少人是因為護照註銷之後然後然後我們順利的把他抓回來來受審或者是執行我們目前是有有我們發函註銷三百二十六個人的護照但是目前並沒有"},{"start":680.128,"end":705.434,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百"},{"start":707.794,"end":727.294,"text":"效果,所以這幾年根本沒有人因為這樣子氣貨回來。所以我們是不是還在想有沒有其他的方式。我是希望法務部能夠在一個月內就氣保潛逃這個議題提出幾個說明。第一個就是說目前這個法案研議的進度怎麼樣。"},{"start":728.855,"end":747.806,"text":"二）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":753.709,"end":782.038,"text":"因為注銷護照而棄獲多少人逃亡的人數有沒有因此而下降我希望說一個月內能夠給我這些資料啦好那不好意思那我再請教一下那個警政署署長我們用朱國榮的案子來說朱國榮的案子他他有好像是四天沒到派出所報到然後才發現他跑掉才通知法院那我想請問一下警政署對這個狀況有沒有什麼改善"},{"start":783.258,"end":807.586,"text":"四天欸四天的已經都跑去哪裡了現在現在針對這個應該他沒有來他沒有按照時間來就立刻要反映那我們刑事局事實上也有一些相關通報機制那這件確實是疏失那我們經過這件也是有內部檢討然後通靈一定要按照如果沒有按照遵期來報到一定要立刻反映"},{"start":815.109,"end":831.918,"text":"兩週內提出檢討報案改善措施朱國榮這個案子是四天沒有來才通知法院當天沒有來的話你們是不是應該就一些重要案子或是普遍你就要去聯繫嘛聯繫不上的話你們就要有警覺"},{"start":834.98,"end":853.198,"text":"兩週內要給我這個檢討報告還有改善措施那要麻煩你們清查一下目前有多少被告是定期要到派出所報到的那有沒有一些相關的SOP要趕快建立起來最後我跟那個次長說明一下剛剛那個吳少偉講那個我覺得"},{"start":856.761,"end":881.317,"text":"這個他講的東西跟我國法制還是有不一樣啦因為他提到幾個說用武器不平等齁這個其實我們常用的法律專有名詞嘛所以用在這個地方他的用法好像不太對啦然後另外就是說他說大法官比較對立法院厚愛啦所以說這個可以不用開庭的所以他還讓你開庭所以表示對你好"},{"start":882.037,"end":882.498,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具"},{"start":898.297,"end":915.288,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":921.812,"end":945.258,"text":"立法院之間的訴訟標的不同所以訴訟標的不同原本是不同案件我們從這個角度去看他到底是不是要請那個幾個律師嗎而不是說用那種用那種很法盲的角度去說阿放在一起12個律師放在一起共用時間所以這個是對立法院好阿所以你們剛剛也不要這樣子"},{"start":948.157,"end":949.26,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具"},{"start":954.537,"end":983.176,"text":"一個案子請三個律師上線這沒有錯但是在面對四個機關他們四個不同的訴訟標的其實他是不同的案子所以我們主張是所謂的武器平等不平等是從這個角度出發去思考這是法律人的思考角度那那不懂的法盲去這樣子胡扯亂帶風向我是不喜歡這樣子其實我跟你講我來自我很不喜歡去打臉一些不懂法律又在愛在這裡講法律的人但是齁一直都在我面前一直這樣我就"},{"start":983.916,"end":1005.336,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":1006.854,"end":1028.202,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"}]}},{"id":"154714","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154714","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9a80a545efdc2a805398a8850000c6975ab2d837d11fc3fab09594e8b99b3c67d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:56:32 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那實價登錄的大概是多少筆?有沒有統計一下?我請市長好,謝謝市長"},{"start":90.789,"end":100.359,"text":"我講有效企業就是112年的話這個有效企業我們掌握到的實價登錄有9萬4千筆全部65萬只有9萬多掌握嗎那65萬裡面有56萬是租金補貼的資訊56萬是租金補貼是然後其他9萬是包租代管對好 謝謝"},{"start":114.579,"end":117.16,"text":"我請問一下部長,其實為什麼沒辦法掌握的最大原因是什麼嗎?"},{"start":132.743,"end":146.766,"text":"有些租金的資訊沒有辦法透明化,可能來自於說對房東來講,他自己反映這個是私契約,那私契約他並沒有公佈的義務。所以第一個就是房東不願意申報就是租金的問題,所以這邊我有做一個公式給你看。"},{"start":153.528,"end":173.293,"text":"現在坊間大家最重視的,如果這個房東一個月的租金三萬塊,如果他房東有做租金補貼跟沒有做租金補貼,我請教一下政事,這個一個會計數學題,他如果這個申報的話,這個租金申報的話,他實拿要拿多少錢?"},{"start":174.033,"end":193.784,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":198.487,"end":200.409,"text":"公益出租人公益出租人公益出租人公益出租人"},{"start":220.191,"end":239.529,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":240.441,"end":258.896,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":259.617,"end":262.179,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":279.782,"end":301.973,"text":"我請我們國土署的同仁做一個說明好 謝謝委員好大家的確有意思嘛 對不對對 這個部分我們的確有發現有這個問題那我們也將演繹 正在進行演繹 接下來來修正 修法 謝謝好 謝謝齁 那今天很開心喔我也要感謝召委啦 今天擺盤真的非常辛苦才有辦法召開這個會議喔其實就是要實質的討論喔 然後去發現說56萬的公益出租的房東喔"},{"start":307.096,"end":329.471,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":330.691,"end":344.299,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案．租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案．租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案．租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案．租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條文修正草案．租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例"},{"start":360.124,"end":373.709,"text":"有關於電價的部分我們已經在行政院合訂了新的那個定型契約那這個定型契約我們在7月8號開始已經公告那在7月15號會正式上路我們上路的過程之後呢我們就會明確訂定"},{"start":375.45,"end":401.043,"text":"每度電價的一個規範,那房東跟房客之間要依據這個新的制度的規範去確定,那也不得違法,違法的話我們會有小寶官會去存取。我剛有問問其他的內政委員會委員,他現在是規定說這個電付,尤其現在是夏季的電費是特別的高,那房東最多可以跟房客收的最高的限額是夏季這個用電的電費,他時資時付嗎?最高是時資時付,不能再任何超收嗎?"},{"start":402.549,"end":407.051,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":423.171,"end":436.179,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具《租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案》案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":450.098,"end":455.744,"text":"好,好,謝謝,那再麻煩你們繼續再,這剛剛提到的問題幫我解決一下,謝謝。好,謝謝張志倫委員的質詢,謝謝,也謝謝次長、市長。好,我們休息三分鐘,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154713","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154713","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db95c4fde67b8ac5adf398a8850000c6975ab2d837d11fc3fab43e9052c5e581b275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:47:50 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個人那他屋主個人如果是比較持有多戶的話那我們是針對他那一個人不是啦,我現在就是啦,你說他孩子如果租了"},{"start":483.473,"end":494.603,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"}]}},{"id":"154712","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154712","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db988259718e3d60680398a8850000c6975ab2d837d11fc3fabf0b00bd4c9e3223e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"10:40:32 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審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":290.899,"end":291.9,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條"},{"start":321.059,"end":347.191,"text":"租屋市場是一個自由經濟市場沒錯這個自由經濟市場當你拿出胡蘿…當你拿出胡蘿蔔的時候它意願比較高對當你拿出棍子的時候它就轉入地下化它的地下化程度會更高因為它不需要是它不需要政府的介入或者不需要什麼它就可以自己做一些事情所以很多時候站在我們的立場是我們會期待的事情是我們透過更多的鼓勵然後政策的積極的介入是讓更多的業者去搜尋這些相關的"},{"start":348.331,"end":348.431,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":367.02,"end":387.109,"text":"反而導致情況更惡劣嗎?這都是很有可能的事情啦所以說實在的我們今天在討論這個政策需要非常細緻的原因而且要把利弊都能夠兩邊呈現在所有民眾的面前我們只是民意代表而已啊我們也不可能有天眾英明完成的所有一次問題在這裡解決但"},{"start":388.37,"end":388.55,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":404.369,"end":423.815,"text":"有效的政策可以更大推廣會比今天修法以後陷入強制關係這種裁罰關係的修法會比較適當這是我的意見啦也請等一下如果我們有機會討論主條的時候也請內政部多表示意見是謝謝委員追尋謝謝好謝謝橋惠委員的質詢謝謝也謝謝次長和司長謝謝我們請王美惠委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"154711","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154711","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db961e7c145fb49324f398a8850000c6975ab2d837d11fc3fab2418cf11d8ba20085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:33:57 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"},{"start":121.099,"end":123,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":138.527,"end":140.969,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":159.381,"end":184.089,"text":"反而造成對年輕人來講這個租屋市場的更加的不公平所以我們希望說透過區間一個比較穩定性的概念那麼讓大家有一個參考值透過這個參考值來做進行的一些相關的判斷就怎麼樣租賃那事實上在國外這也是行之有年的方法我們希望說能夠透過這樣的方式逐步逐步的讓我們的租屋市場透明化公平性都能夠達到"},{"start":184.96,"end":190.462,"text":"好,所以這樣子的,你們預計要公布的這種區間式的資訊,什麼時候會公布?跟委員報告,我想目前我們也會來整理這個資料啦,那我們盡量"},{"start":203.004,"end":206.265,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具"},{"start":231.636,"end":232.838,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。"},{"start":248.278,"end":263.87,"text":"好,謝謝我們盡量來朝這個方向來努力因為我想最重要的是整個的居住的政策的重點其實是在於說我們怎麼樣子讓整個年輕人或者是在市場上有想要租屋跟購屋的人他能夠掌握到明確清楚的事情"},{"start":265.051,"end":275.942,"text":"而這個資訊其實是區段間的好處是在於說因為每個人想要出租的房型或者是每個租屋的人想要居住的房型形態不一樣時間長短就我剛剛講時間長短也不一樣沒錯有人短租有人長租然後有些就是他其實因為租屋的確實他需要的需求就會很細緻是這樣沒錯"},{"start":285.031,"end":309.92,"text":"那也跟委員報告事實上我們從去年開始我們也補助各大學從大學生18歲開始那他住學校宿舍或什麼我們也都鼓勵他們可以申請甚至我們就直接補貼那很多大學也都配合所以在這個過程裡面事實上許多大學生都有受到許多的那個幫助我想這個都是我們在整個居住正義政策裡面我們逐步逐步要來落實的一件事情"},{"start":310.24,"end":328.366,"text":"好謝謝次長那我也希望說在這個公開的過程當中千萬不能讓房東把成本再次轉嫁到消費者身上那另外一件事情也是提醒說我們在公開的過程還是要鼓勵這一些房東做公益的出租因為我們還是希望降低空房率空屋率"},{"start":328.866,"end":328.966,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":347.654,"end":347.794,"text":"好,謝謝次長。"}]}},{"id":"154710","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154710","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9e129829ad30b99f0398a8850000c6975ab2d837d11fc3fab5010cf70e641b11b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:25:28 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程裡面呢我們包括在去年我們就已經將報租轉租的一個部分我們也納入實價登錄的過程裡面那透過這樣的方式我們逐步逐步一步一步的來讓整個市場在最小衝擊狀況之下那麼大家可以取得最完整的最大的資訊"},{"start":133.762,"end":147.287,"text":"我想剛才的兩位委員的質詢也都有提到當我們快速的就是說立法強制的時候我們可能會導致出租者他本身因為資訊的不對稱或等等"},{"start":148.627,"end":172.433,"text":"他會擔心而他把房子就空下來不租了,這反而會擠壓到住宅市場而且造成住宅市場的不公,所以我們希望能夠透過逐步的方式一步一步的引導大家往一個社會的共識然後資訊的逐步透明化,讓年輕人讓有需要的人能夠在完整的一個相對清楚的資訊之下獲得最佳的房子。"},{"start":173.177,"end":197.045,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十"},{"start":197.865,"end":219.791,"text":"租屋越來越多,甚至經過包租的兩、三倍了。這樣子的租屋市場的狀況,內政部是否是全面將包租貸款就納入登錄呢?所以沒有看到,所以大家有看到這個數據。所以更進一步來說,就是房東還有房屋的"},{"start":220.512,"end":237.298,"text":"租給的租金,就是說公益租屋的人房東享有政府給予的優惠,但是因此更多的義務也給合法的範圍,內政部認為公益租屋的是否也應該實際登錄,這個部分。"},{"start":241.038,"end":270.233,"text":"跟委員報告,謝謝委員垂詢。那麼委員所提到的就是說包租貸款的部分在涉宅的部分我們包租與貸款都已經納入實價登錄的系統裡面所以我們現在只要是所以兩個都有登錄嗎?對現在因為我們在看到的只有就是包租有登錄但是貸款是沒有看到實質的登錄我們都有,包租涉宅的包租與貸款我們都有納入登錄體系這也是我們剛才所強調"},{"start":271.133,"end":271.193,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":289.349,"end":317.17,"text":"民進黨過去的執政期間臺灣就是面臨就是多經濟的挑戰但是其中就是暴漲就是不論是年輕人還是我們的壯世代就是普遍感受到就是房價帶來的壓力社會住宅提供不足的讓大家普遍的關心的問題所以現在面臨的狀況政府一直宣布就是在打房所以呢在政治"},{"start":317.91,"end":338.44,"text":"上就是漲價因此我們希望內政部在掌握當下的房價的走勢是所回落還是說在漲價所以政府相關的政策是否何時實際的影響到現在的房價的狀況是漲還是漲呢"},{"start":341.482,"end":342.303,"text":"所以這現在是我們的房價是漲價還是漲價?"},{"start":364.396,"end":386.994,"text":"房價基本上是要回歸到市場的需求那臺灣在過去這幾年因為我們的經濟的發展所以相關的我們因為經濟的發展的關係所以市場的狀況他當然因為油資的過多他有一些發展但是內政部跟行政院我們其實有積極的許多的政策主張以及政策的實施讓整個房價有一個穩定性的狀態我們目前就是在"},{"start":390.516,"end":413.23,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":414.07,"end":417.211,"text":"但這個舉例來說臺北市現在的新建案就是單價就將近一百二十萬了先當五年以下的是這樣子漲幅所以我們要為了讓年輕人去買房這樣的話我覺得是房價打下來越鬆讓我們年輕人不只沒有買到房還會增加他們的負擔"},{"start":438.018,"end":454.584,"text":"所以這樣子的一個方案新金安的貸款這樣子的方案對年輕人是真正的有幫助嗎還是有創造他們更多的負擔還有創造更多的中古屋變成是漲價"},{"start":457.018,"end":460.06,"text":"這個部分我們希望就是我們內政部這邊要重視要怎麼樣更符合我們年輕人的口袋還有他的薪資這個部分要請我們的市長要去努力"},{"start":486.978,"end":487.658,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154709","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154709","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db905bde1ba2c579a5a398a8850000c6975ab2d837d11fc3fab720e17fc406f2b395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:18:37 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art":15.84,"end":42.997,"text":"來部長找部長其實啊整個租屋的市場透明化我相信啊這個也是內政部啊要努力的目標嘛是的對啦齁但我今天的這個修法我有兩點要請問一下部長部長我們現在所有的300億的租屋補貼當中齁如果我所有的年輕人我要得到租屋補貼需不需要修這個法"},{"start":43.988,"end":65.568,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":67.642,"end":96.542,"text":"我們希望的是年輕人要租房子或有需要租房子的人能夠用最快最合理的速度去租到房子這是我們努力的目標吧當然沒錯嘛是所以部長問題來了如果今天這個法令這樣通過之後每個都要都要申報的話部長同一個區段同一個大樓"},{"start":98.871,"end":101.785,"text":"我的裝潢比較好的,我的租金會不會比較貴?"},{"start":103.726,"end":131.621,"text":"是,當然啊,市場的行情一定是這樣子啊。裝潢越好就越貴嘛。是不是?對。對不對?這是一定是市場的運作是這樣嘛,對不對?好,所以,如果我的裝潢好,然後呢,我的租金比較貴,同樣這一棟大樓,我的租金我沒有特別的裝潢,我的租金相對便宜一點點,但如果我們以這個例子來的話,"},{"start":133.621,"end":155.696,"text":"這會不會造成到時候租金上漲的一個壓力來源?部長擔不擔心?是,報告委員其實就是我剛剛在報告裡面跟大家提的我們在111年的時候邀集22個地方政府尤其是六都租客房租比較多的地方那他們地方政府也表達同樣的憂慮"},{"start":157.037,"end":157.177,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":176.109,"end":185.179,"text":"二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具:「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及"},{"start":194.389,"end":214.768,"text":"我們採取去識別化然後可以保護個人資料的部分用區段式的來部分公佈讓真正想要租屋的人或即將要租屋的年輕人知道他所想要去的區位大概的市場行情是多少這樣子比較不會出現就是說前言跟後或是前法跟後法上面的矛盾的差異"},{"start":215.969,"end":243.541,"text":"部長,你的看法我是支持啦。就像你剛剛說的,如果要介入到很詳細的個資,第一個,會變成有些人,我乾脆有房子不要出租好了啊,我就放在那邊啊。你會不會擔心有這種情況發生?實際上,你會不會有這種情況發生?我相信一定會有啦,一定會有。而且我們在多次跟這個包租代管業者在座談當中也有聽到這樣的聲音。"},{"start":245.431,"end":264.898,"text":"實際上確實會有這種事情發生所以我其實我的看法跟部長是有點相同我覺得租屋的這個市場要不要透明化我覺得我們要朝透明化的方向去走但如果一次走到"},{"start":265.987,"end":280.047,"text":"每一個介入到門牌號碼每一個的我覺得會讓很多本來想要出租的人打退堂鼓反而你很多房子我們要他出來的不見了他收回去的他不出租了所以我認為"},{"start":281.289,"end":310.25,"text":"今天這個法其實我認為啦要不要修或者是修別的法達到部長所說的就像我們那時候實價登錄我們是先從區塊開始我們一步一步來我覺得部長我們應該朝這個方向來努力讓他比如說這一個區塊的租屋行情大概是多少我讓要去租屋的人出租人跟成租人大概都有一個標準"},{"start":311.05,"end":328.97,"text":"但又不是一個絕對的對不對這樣有兩個好處第一個避免租金往上一直調一直調我跟你講如果這樣子像他們的修法我跟你講我可以去弄一間比較好一點的然後我把租金往上調高五千塊"},{"start":330.558,"end":341.836,"text":"然後到時候這一棟哇人家都多少了全面租金會上揚我不樂見這種情況發生但我也認為這個必須要有一點適度的透明所以部長你剛剛說的"},{"start":345.086,"end":362.034,"text":"我們用區塊來做的,在不修法的情況下,做不做得到?是,我們依照剛剛委員的指示的方向,其實有做過研議,就是我們如果是去識別化,然後推動的是區域租金的行情,提供給租客或是房東來參考,就是他的行情不會是一個定碼,"},{"start":364.955,"end":367.176,"text":"租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃租賃"},{"start":394.605,"end":395.446,"text":"文件比較重要。"}]}},{"id":"154707","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154707","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9833f829f0e48ddace6fdecbb7cc8faa7c114453cb9c203b07e470654c3813b7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:35:12 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10:48:13","影片長度":"00:13:01","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:35:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T10:48:13+08:00","duration":781,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":37,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-37"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":497,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時35分）謝謝主席。有請徐次長跟司法院的代表朱法官。"],["主席：請次長、朱法官。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我想大家都應當有聚焦昨天憲法法庭的法規範審理，其實本席這個會期從教育及文化的領域一腳踏進司法及法制的領域，我有充分地學習，我想我知道自己對於法律的理解、憲法的尊重永遠不嫌多。","國會擴權法案很遺憾地在這個屆期通過了，一個在立法院最大、絕對的國會優位原則下立出來、修出來的惡法，除了讓立法院能夠凌駕其他的憲政機關，嚴重地破壞臺灣的憲政體制以及權力分立，它就是毀憲亂政，莫此為甚。但是往正面來看，正因為國會這樣的惡搞，社會開始全方面的省思，青鳥的行動全臺串聯，所以國會不討論，就交給社會來討論。我們看到臺灣有了一個有史以來最擴權、濫權的國會，但也因此臺灣凝聚了一個最團結的社會，我往正向來看。所以在場外，不只是立法院的四周，也包括全臺灣的各個地點、各個角落，很多的年輕世代、青鳥們，大家一起來上一堂珍貴的民主課、一堂珍貴的公民課，我認為這也是珍貴的意義。","另一個部分就是昨天的憲法法庭，我想這是臺灣有史以來最多人在關注、觀看憲法法庭直播，史上第一次，同時這也是全臺灣一起來上一堂憲法課、法律課非常珍貴的時刻。我們的召委昨天也一起出席，我也是聲請方的代表，大法官不是特別對國民黨、民眾黨的立委嚴格，大法官、憲法法庭對於憲法受到挑戰，當然要嚴格地檢視，有人要不斷地毀憲亂政，摧毀臺灣民主的另外一個面向，我認為這是留下一個珍貴的民主憲政探討的資產給臺灣社會。","我今天在這裡，我在國會語重心長。但是非常遺憾，憲法法庭還沒有審理之前，甚至還沒有受理之前，我們看看國民黨的委員們，從罵大法官是民進黨的看門狗，再批判大法官沒有民意基礎，再到要求大法官要自重、愛惜羽毛，甚至在野黨說如果大法官裁定暫時處分，就會對大法官的預算跟人事同意權作出因應，這是還沒受理前國民黨說的喔！昨天憲法法庭開了，憲法法庭當庭，民眾黨的代表也是立法院的機關代表黃國昌委員，他居然以大法官不該成為特定政黨的守護神為題，太荒謬了。甚至到今天，憲法法庭開完的今天，國民黨今天上午剛剛開完記者會，繼續地來鬥臭憲法法庭、繼續地抹綠這些大法官，國民黨的記者會主題是憲法法庭到底在捍衛誰的民主法治。","今天在這裡我要一個一個來回應，憲法法庭基於憲法的授權，何錯之有？昨天立法院的機關代表們，國、眾黨的委員說程序不完備，所謂的暫時處分，因為它的性質，其實開庭並非必要，甚至不是常態，而且是第一次吧？我說的沒有錯吧？所以憲法法庭是特別慎重的，過去不需要就暫時處分來特別開庭，因為慎重、因為尊重立法院，所以特別召開準備庭，所有程序該上網的上網，該可以調閱的卷證都完全地提供，程序哪裡不完備？如果國民黨、民眾黨的委員再批判大法官程序不完備，那請好好思考自己在審議、強行輾壓國會擴權法案的時候，程序有完備嗎？程序不正義，在國會完全被踐踏。","第二點，有委員說害他這幾天都只睡3個小時，好辛苦喔，準備時間不足。當國民黨可以在今年的3月8號，民眾黨是2月20號就提出立法院職權行使法乃至於刑法的修正案，你們送出一個違憲的版本時，你們就應當做足準備你們會面對憲法的挑戰。時間不足嗎？甚至你們最後一刻黑箱喬條文，我要說國民黨跟民眾黨的委員是比民進黨的委員事先知道要被表決的條文是什麼，因為當時他們列為最高機密。武器不對等嗎？我要再還原那天韓院長主持的朝野協商，民進黨是禮讓了立法院的機關代表，讓國民黨、民眾黨代表，包括訴訟代理人，民進黨是禮讓的，但是另外這邊有人說12比3，為什麼這邊是12？因為有四個聲請的機關，總統府、行政院、監察院、立法院是同用共享昨天在憲法法庭的時間，如果以可以在庭論述發表意見的時間上來講，四個機關分享30分鐘，但是立法院的機關代表就使用30分鐘，完全是均等，甚至大家可以看看昨天的直播，是誰占用了更多的時間，大法官也充分地讓立法院的機關代表來發表意見，不是嗎？所以沒有武器不對等這件事。","昨天大法官真的是直球對決了，但是大法官是做球給立法院的機關代表委員們，可以充分地針對是不是有違憲，或是他們主張合憲，充分地一題又一題，給機會再給機會，聚焦再聚焦，給予立法院的機關代表、幾位立法委員完整的時間去做回應，所以如果現在還是要用這種政治來詆毀、威脅大法官，真的是對於憲政另外一個層面的大傷害。言盡於此。我希望今天在這裡作成議事紀錄，但我還是正向地認為這是全臺灣有史以來最珍貴的民主課、公民課、憲法課、法律課，全臺灣都在這個過程裡頭獲得滋養、獲得學習。","今天的主題是妨害司法公正罪，我的主張是修法不要為急而急，不要為快而快，不要只做半套。當然剛剛很多委員都提到司改國是會議在2017年就作出了決議，確實要研議相關妨害司法公正罪的內容，法務部的版本在2019年9月17號第一次送入行政院，到今天是過了1,759天，卡關的原因你們剛剛說明了，是為了力求周延，為求慎重，對話再對話，凝聚共識，而不是推卸也不是延宕，更不是怠惰，我可以接受，我可以理解，因為這樣一個重要的修法，都需要比嚴謹更嚴謹。","所以我在這裡具體提出，其實整個全方位地來看看妨害司法公正罪，除了在野黨的委員都有提到的棄保潛逃罪，他們都有提到的司法關說罪，乃至於在野黨版本也都提出了恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪之外，其實更完備的還有幾個面向，譬如說湮滅證據罪，譬如說訴訟外目的使用證據罪，譬如說藐視法庭罪，我知道法務部想提，但司法院有不同意見，所以這是我建構出來也是我的理解，要整個全套系統性地去理解，訂定一個妨害司法公正罪，每一個面向都不可偏廢，而不是只有現在在野黨委員比較側重的三大目標！次長同意我的主張嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：這裡都做出來，國、眾黨分別都聚焦在棄保潛逃罪、恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪及司法關說罪，但是對於訴訟外目的使用證據罪跟湮滅證據罪目前是付之闕如的，我認為這就是我們需要等行政院版的理由，不要只修半套。","民眾黨甚至……聚焦在司法關說罪，對不起，最後一分鐘。關於司法關說罪，我主張要擴大打擊範圍，因為現在民眾黨的主張是針對在法定程序外對法官或檢察官不法關說者，吳思瑤的主張跟建議也是參酌你們今天的說明報告，你們認為實務上若發生對承辦法官、檢察官的長官關說的情形，其實應該一併考量有無處罰之必要，所以吳思瑤的主張是，納入法官、檢察官有直接監督的長官也應當是不當關說處罰的對象，而且他的行為除了關說之外，也應當更擴大範圍，在請託跟施壓的層面要予以容納。","因為我很遺憾的說，立法院不應當成為各種利用質詢來對於個案，乃至於對於司法介入或干預的作為，所以我更為嚴謹地，我希望可以針對第一百七十二條之五具體地作出我的建議，就是向承辦法官、檢察官或其監督長官不法請託、關說、施壓者都要一併成為處罰的標的，訂定相關的罰則。我認為我這樣的主張是擴大打擊，也是現在的必要，否則外力的介入，對於長官們的施壓或是關說、各種方式的請託，也就來自於政治力，我們自己立法委員修法也要勇敢對自己開槍、對自己嚴格地審視跟課責。我不曉得法務部代表、司法院代表同意我這樣的主張嗎？就是針對這個關說的部分。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：同意。來，司法院。"],["朱法官嘉川：就相關的政策決定部分，司法院都予以尊重。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我認為我們往這個方向，我相信在野黨委員也會支持，我們一起來自我課責跟自律，我們如果要訂非法關說罪，我們就訂得明確、擴大打擊面，我會爭取大家支持。然後我同意給予你們合理的時間提出部版、院版，然後還要會銜司法院，求好而不是求快，我會繼續努力下去，也會監督你們。謝謝主席、謝謝次長，謝謝。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","請林思銘委員代理主席。"],["主席（林委員思銘代）：接下來請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-37","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","羅智強","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等27\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":4.097843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.95034375,"end":3.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.53659375,"end":5.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.58721875,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.920343750000001,"end":6.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.637218750000002,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.15159375,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.554718750000003,"end":27.149093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","s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"end":464.864,"text":"所以如果現在還是要用這種政治來詆毀威脅大法官真的是對於憲政另外一個層面的大傷害"},{"start":466.22,"end":467.641,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具〈中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":486.806,"end":510.169,"text":"今天的主題防礙司法公正罪我的主張修法不要為急而急不要為快而快不要只做半套下一頁當然剛剛很多委員都提到司改國是會議在2017年就做出了決議確實要研議相關的防礙司法公正罪的內容下一頁"},{"start":511.385,"end":534.533,"text":"法務部的版本2019年9月17號第一次送入行政院到今天是過了1759天卡關的原因你們剛剛說明了是為了力求周延為求慎重對話再對話凝聚共識而不是推卸也不是延宕更不是怠惰"},{"start":535.453,"end":558.969,"text":"我可以接受我可以理解因為這樣一個重要的修法都需要比嚴謹更嚴謹下一頁所以我在這裡具體提出其實整個全方位的來看看妨害司法公正罪除了在野黨的委員都有提到的棄保潛逃罪他們都有提到的司法關說罪乃至於在野黨版本有都提出了恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪之外"},{"start":561.471,"end":566.799,"text":"其實更完備的還有幾個面向比如說淹滅證據罪比如說訴訟外目的使用證據罪比如說藐視法庭罪我知道法務部想提但司法院有不同意見"},{"start":574.554,"end":593.616,"text":"所以這是我建構出來也是我的理解整個要全套系統性的去理解訂定一個妨礙司法公正罪每一個面向都不可偏廢而不是現在只有在野黨委員比較側重的三大目標我想次長同意我的主張嗎"},{"start":595.309,"end":621.452,"text":"報委同意好那下一頁我甚至這裡都做出來國眾黨分別都聚焦在棄保險逃罪恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪及司法關稅罪但是對於訴訟外目的使用證據罪跟湮滅證據罪是目前付之缺乳的我認為這就是我們需要等行政院版的理由不要只修半套下一頁"},{"start":622.711,"end":638.807,"text":"民眾黨甚至我聚焦在司法觀說罪對不起最後一分鐘司法觀說罪我的主張要擴大打擊範圍因為現在以民眾黨的主張是針對在法定程序外對法官或檢察官不法觀說者"},{"start":639.668,"end":661.046,"text":"五四謠的主張跟建議也是參酌你們今天的說明報告你們認為說實務上若發生對承辦法官檢察官的長官關說的情形其實應該一併考量有無處罰之必要所以五四謠的主張納入法官檢察官有直接監督的長官也應當是不當關說處罰的對象"},{"start":663.388,"end":675.683,"text":"而且他的行為除了關說之外也應當更擴大範圍在請託跟施壓的面的層面要予以來容納下一頁"},{"start":677.062,"end":703.969,"text":"因為我很遺憾的說立法院不應當成為各種利用質詢來對於各案乃至於對於司法來介入或干預的作為所以我更為嚴謹的我希望可以在172條之五裡頭具體的來做出我的建議就是向承辦法官檢察官或其監督長官不罰請託"},{"start":707.031,"end":725.87,"text":"關說施壓者都要一併來成為處罰的標的定定相關的法則我這樣的主張我認為是擴大打擊也是現在我們的必要否則外力的介入對於長官們的施壓"},{"start":727.432,"end":743.243,"text":"或是關說各種方式的請託也就來自於政治力我們自己立法委員修法也要勇敢對自己開槍對自己來嚴格的審視跟克責我不曉得法務部代表司法院代表同意我這樣的主張嗎就是針對這個關說的部分"},{"start":745.865,"end":768.947,"text":"法務委員同意同意來司法院就相關的政策決定部分司法院都予以尊重好那我認為我們往這個方向我相信在野黨委員也會支持我們一起來自我克責跟自律我們如果要對於非法關說罪定我們就定的明確擴大打擊面我會爭取大家的支持然後我同意給予你們合理的時間提出布板"},{"start":769.668,"end":779.939,"text":"院版然後還要會會嫌司法院求好而不是求快我會繼續努力下去也會監督你們好謝謝主席謝謝次長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154706","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154706","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db973c2599e48c9f97f160fff40bb8bca63c114453cb9c203b01aae88de4fb15d3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:39:13 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棒球足球也都有社區俱樂部等等相關的這些方式未來我們在體育署升格為體育部之後我們是不是把兒少體育要把它擴張它的概念相關的這些輔導機制一起通通納入來討論"},{"start":498.882,"end":499.402,"text":"三條之二條之一條"}]}},{"id":"154705","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154705","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db95436ebaac8b2d937160fff40bb8bca63c114453cb9c203b0749a260809b8290f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:28:45 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10:39:07","影片長度":"00:10:22","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:28:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T10:39:07+08:00","duration":622,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":509,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時28分）謝謝主席，有請張廖次長。"],["主席：好，請張廖次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：首先跟次長討論一下，就是一個國小教學組長的心聲，根據現在國家語言發展法，我們本土語言已經正式納入國高中的正式課程，國小也要修習本土語，本席當然非常支持我們推廣本土語，因為語言是文化的載體跟靈魂，母語一旦斷了，文化就會滅。不過臺灣的本土語非常多樣化，所以現場的教學人員就會碰到一種狀況，就是新生一開始進入學校就要開始選某種語別，那修完一年之後，他可以轉換別種語別，可是這種語言不見得是這位學生的母語，例如說他學習自己的母語是客家語好了，可是他的好朋友在學阿美語，或者家長覺得學賽德克語很特別，於是他就會讓他孩子去學賽德克語，當然學多種語言是好事，可是家長如果用那種所謂的第二跟第三外語的心態請孩子去選，可能就會造成學校的教學組長很大的困擾。再者，我們如果修了某種語言一年後，我們其實是可以換別的語別，那這樣的學習成效好嗎？學生選擇某種語別，學校的教學組長就要去找老師來開課，可是招考的期程就算拉一個月，也不見得有任何的老師來主動應徵，學校都要千方百計地去打聽詢問，拜託老師來，這個會造成整個這個教學組整個暑假都在找人，特別老師們的動態又有很大的不確定性，可能答應了要來考試和上課，可是可能最後又不來，反正最後會搞得學校的這些教學人員真的是非常非常困擾。","所以按照現行的國民中小學開設本土語文課程應注意事項，學生如果要選擇哪項語別就選什麼，而且修習一年以上是可以轉換，可是我現在就是要跟你檢討說，這樣的轉來轉去說實在地成效不會好，當然如果我們能勸退家長當然沒事，可是一旦家長的態度很堅持，學校承擔的壓力就會很大，我覺得這也不是一間學校遇到的狀況，所以教育部不曉得有沒有注意到這樣的狀況？教育部要怎麼協助來減輕學校這些教學單位的壓力？我是重申學習本土語非常重要，如果教育部可以配合家長來開放語言的選修，就要確保有完整、多元而且有效的師資跟機制，這部分……"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，謝謝林委員的關心，這個問題其實就是大家都會講，因為國家語言發展法通過之後，我們所謂的本土語言、國家語言是變多了，也是因為我們在推動語言平權的時候能夠顧慮到文化多樣性，其實多語言的學習是國家政策，我們目前為止也知道，可是在這個狀況下，大院討論過好幾次師資問題怎麼來，所以事實上教育部也研發了各種教材，就是各種語言都有，透過遠距教學的教材，所以事實上如果即使有一個學生說我今天就對賽德克族的語言有興趣，老師怎麼辦呢？就是有遠距教學的資源可以運用，一個人一樣開班，當然有些大概行政上會覺得說這樣子很麻煩，可是事實上我們知道像歐洲國家也是多語言，一個孩子從成長過程裡面，他可能接觸到法語、德語，他也可能都學一年之後，有一個印象之後，他可能常常在生活上遇到，然後他會再複習，所以事實上這種多語言環境的形成跟我們的國家語言法的政策是有關係的。委員所指的這個部分，我想是現場老師目前在面對，的確他們會覺得說這樣子到底好嗎，他這樣一個人在看遠距教學到底學到了什麼，所以他的學習內容，我們一般設計會以生活化為主，我們程度不會很難。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以一年……"],["張廖次長萬堅：讓他有興趣。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以一年就可以轉換這個政策還是要繼續……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，這個東西就是說讓他接觸有興趣，然後以後他遇到這個語言的時候，他會有一個入門，他會想我可以自己去學習，就幫他開啟一個學習之門的開始。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["張廖次長萬堅：打開這樣子，大概是不會要求要考試、考得很嚴格，或要做語言的程度鑑定。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然。"],["張廖次長萬堅：除非他很有興趣再去……"],["林委員宜瑾：好，那就是教學現場的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我們會……"],["林委員宜瑾：就請教育部來協助。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對這部分會再協助，好不好？"],["林委員宜瑾：好，那我們回到今天的主題，就是運動產業發展條例，本席對於職棒簽賭記憶猶新，也深深傷了我這個球迷的心，當然我想我們花了十幾年的時間又讓職棒重回榮景，我們都不希望歷史重演，所以我非常贊同這次修法的精神。不過加重刑責固然好，可是會打假球的人或者這些組頭會因為這樣就不賭了嗎？這當然是有點納悶啦！另外就是說，運動彩券現行條例針對投注標的的簽賭，妨礙賽事會進行重罰，不過沒有在投注標的的職業賽事就可能會成為破口，像是PLG或T1現在都還不是運彩的投注標的，可是這又是國內很重要的職籃賽事，本席當然覺得前述的賽事有必要來檢視怎麼處理，剛剛有很多委員提到，我身為女性，我還是要講一下瓊斯盃出場費男女不平等的問題，我想籃協跟職籃工會針對球員擔任國家隊的出場費有長時間的討論，之前男籃爭取出場費，籃協的代表竟然說「打不好就不要獎懲」這類的言論，這次的瓊斯盃出場費，工會好不容易爭取到，可是又發生什麼男生5,000元、女生3,000元這種問題、同工不同酬的不公平事件，那天像女籃的藍白兩隊比賽，很多球迷就穿黑衣進場相挺，球員也在手臂上貼黑肌貼表達柔性的抗議。我覺得這整起事件真的很難過，到今（2024）年還會發生這種事情……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，我可以回應嗎？"],["林委員宜瑾：你先讓我說完啦！我當然要稱讚體育署在這個事件上真的有在第一時間就表達要注意性別平等，昨天籃協有亡羊補牢，說會發2,000元的激勵金給女籃，名目不是出賽費，還是所謂的激勵金，我覺得這樣以後會不會就按照前例，女籃的出場費是3,000元、激勵金是2,000元？但我覺得在名目上，雖然總數是一樣的，可是為什麼要用不一樣的名目來這樣表達？所以我覺得這件事情是不是……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我想再次表達，對這個事情我表達遺憾，這是非常不應該，事實上體育署署長第一時間也表達聲明，後來籃協雖然又補2,000元，但是它用的名義顯然還是不夠平等，所以我會跟體育署來研究，我想這些單項協會都是國際運動的窗口，領有國家大量的補助，對於國家的政策一定要遵行，所以如果將來還有類似的事情發生，我們不排除就減扣補助款。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，因為體育署真的有在補助籃協，所以我覺得主動介入督導是必須的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們來研究，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：最後就是巴黎奧運，我想簡單提一下，因為這是最後一次質詢，我們開始要正式登場了，我很肯定體育署這邊，包括我們讓選手全部坐商務艙，也安排膳食中心、運動中心，特別還派安全官保護我們的球員，現在重點來了，假設有一些意料之外的事情，像是我有注意到，這次巴黎主要機場的工會揚言要發起罷工，我們的代表隊也差不多那個時間要抵達巴黎，如果萬一罷工擴大的話，可能會壓縮到我們賽前的訓練或調適的時間，最壞的狀況就是選手沒辦法上場，所以這個怎麼因應？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們這次要特別感謝駐外單位，事實上對於這次到巴黎奧運，包括我們借到的運動中心、包括我們在地方的一些運動場館的訓練，其實他們都幫了很大的忙，我們也注意到這兩天因為法國大選有罷工的事情，我們會透過駐外單位做最好的安排。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，就是讓選手一定不能有任何的意外。"],["張廖次長萬堅：會協助，這部分我們對反恐也做過演練、也做過兵推，另外有關罷工可能造成的事項，事實上我們也在注意，也會做預防，然後來做協助。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK，謝謝次長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，感謝。","接下來我們請吳沛憶委員。吳沛憶委員質詢完畢之後，我們先休息10分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員林德\n福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案；四、審查委員陳培瑜等21\n人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案；五、審查\n台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.95409375,"end":10.240343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.952843750000003,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.066593750000003,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.640343750000003,"end":191.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.83284375000002,"end":160.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.84846875000002,"end":169.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.67784375000002,"end":180.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.15721875,"end":237.63096875000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令家長覺得學賽德克語很特別,於是他就會讓他孩子去學賽德克語。當然學多種語言是好事,可是家長如果用那種所謂的第二跟第三外語的心態請孩子去選,那可能就會造成學校的教學組長很大的困擾。再者我們如果修了某種語言一年後,"},{"start":91.764,"end":92.365,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":107.765,"end":114.934,"text":"也不見得有任何的老師來主動應徵。學校都要千方百計地去打聽詢問拜託老師來。這個會造成整個教學組整個暑假都會找人。"},{"start":122.984,"end":124.685,"text":"第二十四條之二條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":150.282,"end":150.502,"text":"三條之二條之二條之"},{"start":166.262,"end":173.405,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第12條之一條文修正草案：立法院第12條之一條文修正草案：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員等19人擬具"},{"start":191.331,"end":193.493,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具 «運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":207.426,"end":227.067,"text":"其實他這個多語言的學習其實是國家政策啦那我們目前為止也知道說可是在這個狀況下我們討論過大院討論過好幾次是這問題怎麼來所以事實上教育部也研發了各種教材各種語言都有透過那個遠距教學的那個教材所以"},{"start":227.447,"end":244.572,"text":"四、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文修正草案�"},{"start":255.655,"end":256.695,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":285.126,"end":288.448,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":312.742,"end":313.442,"text":"第二十六條之"},{"start":330.914,"end":331.394,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":350.326,"end":350.707,"text":"第二十六條之"},{"start":368.149,"end":368.89,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":389.524,"end":389.665,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":406.621,"end":431.673,"text":"就不要講成這類的言論。那這次瓊師杯出場費公衛好不容易爭取到就是可是又發生到什麼男生五千男女生三千這種問題同工不同酬那這樣不公平的事件那天像說女男的那個藍白兩隊對賽比賽那很多球迷就穿黑衣進場相挺那那個球員也在手臂上"},{"start":432.313,"end":433.575,"text":"三條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":447.21,"end":447.69,"text":"條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":468.259,"end":479.934,"text":"三條之二條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條之三條"},{"start":486.162,"end":508.571,"text":"對我想我再次表達對這個事情我表達遺憾就是說這個是非常不應該那體育署署長事實上第一時間他也表達聲明那後來藍協雖然是用又補了兩千但是他用的名義顯然還是不夠平等所以我會來跟體育署來研究我想這些單項協會都是國際運動的窗口"},{"start":511.932,"end":512.352,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":528.157,"end":538.919,"text":"三條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":556.158,"end":556.278,"text":"三條之二條之"},{"start":579.022,"end":585.045,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第12條之一條文修正草案：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":602.634,"end":602.794,"text":"三條之二條之一條"}]}},{"id":"154704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154704","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9e8bdc23adc7c05bae6fdecbb7cc8faa7c114453cb9c203b066c057cb154940df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:25:36 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10:35:01","影片長度":"00:09:25","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:25:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T10:35:01+08:00","duration":565,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":37,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-37"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":450,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時25分）謝謝主席。請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我想棄保潛逃罪及所有其他包含妨害司法公正罪這幾個罪，討論很久了啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["林委員思銘：剛才沈發惠委員提到整個從2017年司改國是會議做成決議之後，法務部在2019（108）年提出了修法版本，我看今天你們的報告一直提到其實要不要定這些妨害司法公正罪或者棄保潛逃罪，包括司法院也提到這好像是一個刑事政策的問題，所以你同不同意要定這些罪則是刑事政策的問題？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個是刑事政策，同時也是符合國人的期待，我想這是大家的期待。"],["林委員思銘：因為我剛才聽到您講當時是因為美國有棄保潛逃罪的相關規定，歐陸法系的國家就沒有嘛！所以我現在才會問你，到底我國要不要仿效美國訂立棄保潛逃罪，或者要採歐陸國家的立法──沒有，所以這就是你的抉擇嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["林委員思銘：所以這就是我國要不要採這樣的一個刑事政策的問題嘛！當然現在從你的整份報告裡面，你講得很清楚，就是說為了確保司法的公信力，還有讓司法權及刑罰權能夠正確的行使，並發現事實的真相，維護司法的公信力，法務部的立場認為這是要定的、要定相關妨害司法公正的相關罪責。","今天其實我很贊同法務部在今天報告對於修正草案裡面你們整個的版本，其實你們定得非常周詳，你們寫得非常清楚，從包括第一百七十二條之一的棄保潛逃罪，你們的構成要件是要處罰經命具保、責付、限制住居及特定處分或命令之人積極逃亡、藏匿之行為，因為我們有些委員的立法並沒有就逃亡、藏匿的行為做文字敘述，但你們這邊有強調嘛！所以你們這個版本已經寫得非常清楚了，對於潛逃的行為是什麼，你們這個法案條文裡面有做規定嘛！另外就妨害作證罪，你們在第一百七十二條之二還有第一百七十二條之三……"],["徐次長錫祥：對，干擾。"],["林委員思銘：也處罰對協助詢問程序的證人，或者對於鑑定人、專家證人或通譯等，施以恐嚇、騷擾及行賄等犯罪行為也予以處罰，所以這個也有對騷擾恐嚇證人、鑑定人的行為予以處罰。還有第一百七十二條之四非法使用卷證罪也加以處罰，另外對於不法關說罪在第一百七十二條之五也有很明確的一個規定，所以已經涵蓋了整個妨害司法罪相關的規定嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["林委員思銘：你已經有這麼好的草案，所以我們的問題又回到經過了11次的審查會議，今年也開了兩次，去年開了3次，為什麼這部草案在行政院那邊會一直卡住，出不來？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，這個就是成果，這是很多專家學者慢慢開會、慢慢修，所以委員剛才看到說這個很好啊！"],["林委員思銘：對啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：這個就是這11次會議的成果，並不是一進去就長這個樣子，大家……"],["林委員思銘：所以你這次的成果已經……也就是你現在已經修正得差不多了。"],["徐次長錫祥：對，現在就剩一點點。"],["林委員思銘：最後的版本已經差不多了。"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["林委員思銘：也就是剛才您回答沈發惠委員說，這個星期五你們就會把文字修正送到行政院，行政院就會核定，是這樣嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：不是，是會銜司法院，然後……"],["林委員思銘：是什麼情況？請再說明清楚。"],["徐次長錫祥：行政院還要排院會，院會通過草案以後會銜司法院，然後司法院也沒有意見了，那我們就會送大院。"],["林委員思銘：那大概多久？所以你剛剛回答說星期五就是什麼……"],["徐次長錫祥：這個是文字修改，現在草案已經在行政院，還要我們修改完了，就會送行政院院會，通過以後會銜司法院，司法院沒有意見以後，這個就會送到大院來，我們希望……"],["林委員思銘：所以期程大概是？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們剛才跟沈委員特別報告，希望在六個月、半年之內達到這個目標。"],["林委員思銘：還要六個月啊？"],["徐次長錫祥：因為這中間行政院院會跟司法院院會都不是本部能夠有辦法決定的時間。"],["林委員思銘：是啦！其實次長，這次立法委員提出這麼多的版本，剛才沈委員說好像是要逼你們法務部提版本還是民進黨政府做得不好怎樣，其實我想大家絕對沒有這樣的想法，大家只希望讓這些司改國是會議所提出來的建議能夠落實，是幫現在執政黨解套、幫法務部解套，希望案子不要一直在行政院來來去去審查了那麼多次，都一直沒有辦法定案，就感覺決心不夠。利用這次我們召委來排審這個法案，我們期許法務部能夠儘快把院版提到司法及法制委員會，我們大家一起來討論嘛！因為你們的版本我覺得非常好，你們有更多的專家學者可以提供我們修法的意見，所以你們提出來的非常好。","至於說我看到有些有意見的，他是認為說如果沒收具保金以外，對棄保潛逃罪再科以刑責恐構成雙重處罰，不符合比例原則，也有人認為若逃逸的被告本身犯的是輕罪，卻被加判棄保潛逃罪，有可能導致後罪大於前罪，不符比例原則。次長，你贊成這樣的看法嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有，這個之前他們在研討的時候有討論過，不過我們還是為了維護司法的公正審判，這兩個是分開的。"],["林委員思銘：不是，次長，我們現在純粹就這個看法、見解……"],["徐次長錫祥：我知道，有一點……"],["林委員思銘：我提出我的見解，你看是不是有道理。就是現在我們很多刑罰除了判有期徒刑以外，會併科罰金，所以這個棄保潛逃罪沒收他的金額，這類似就是一個罰金刑，然後再給他一個刑度，怎麼會有什麼不符比例原則的規定呢？這就跟我們現在的刑法的規定一樣啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：對啊！"],["林委員思銘：給你罰金、併科罰金，就是棄保潛逃那個金額我就沒收，具保金就沒收，而且給你刑責。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["林委員思銘：所以這很OK的，我不曉得是哪門子的學者見解，蠻奇怪的！另外就是說什麼若逃逸的被告本身涉犯的是輕罪，被加判棄保潛逃罪有可能導致後罪大於前罪。其實次長我不曉得你們有沒有統計過，今天這些被告被判輕罪的、犯輕罪的人，他有可能潛逃嗎？他判輕罪，他巴不得趕快易科罰金執行完畢啊！所以現在會潛逃都是我們講的這些重大的經濟犯罪、有能力的人。我最怕他們輕而易舉地潛逃，我巴不得法院趕快認罪協商，然後易科罰金，就讓他執行完畢。這個見解我是覺得是哪門子見解喔！所以很奇怪啦！我是希望法務部還是要趕快把相關的版本……跟行政院說明清楚，我現在看到臺灣會這麼亂，很多專家學者的見解參考、參考，務實一點啦！都不夠務實，才會在我們立法方面產生很多很多的卡關，都是開著冷氣在講事情而已，根本對於我們現實面、務實面、法庭的實際上、被告的社會動態等完全不瞭解，我真的可以這樣講，所以我希望法務部與時俱進，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上，謝謝。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-37","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","羅智強","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等27\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.290968750000001,"end":11.505968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.759093750000002,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.52221875,"end":17.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.85096875,"end":25.984718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.68909375,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.10971875,"end":37.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.884718750000005,"end":56.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.47346875,"end":57.760343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.30034375,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.025343750000005,"end":63.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.05909375,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.64534375000001,"end":71.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.34471875,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.44409375000001,"end":88.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":543.524,"end":562.824,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及"}]}},{"id":"154702","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154702","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9a90562194c0f4646e6fdecbb7cc8faa7c114453cb9c203b0231ebb0c6498256a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:13:32 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都有提到從2017年國事會議到司改國事會議到現在這個有關在2017年司改國事會議所這個這個通過的這個決議決議內容非常明確的有關這個這個一些相關的妨礙司法公正的這些罪行以及這個棄保潛逃"},{"start":86.68,"end":111.646,"text":"委政等相關案件確實在事改國事會議的結論裡面很明確的說明在當時事改國事會議的時候我們法務部所表達的立場也是一致但是今天排這樣子的議程其實有一個我聽剛才的這些包括提案委員包括剛才質詢的委員大家都有一個好像"},{"start":112.79,"end":121.072,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":121.758,"end":148.898,"text":"所以我們這個這個司法法制委員會我們就先來來來把這個委員所委員齁所提的這個修正案齁今天來列入議程來來審議齁目的就是因為你們怠惰七年這個這個四海國事會2017到現在2024七年的時間齁這個這個棄保潛牢罪以及相關其他妨礙司法的相關的罪行齁你們都沒有立法"},{"start":150.478,"end":156.666,"text":"所以這個都沒有提出修正草案所以今天來排這個來逼我們法務部來做這個說明"},{"start":162.165,"end":188.972,"text":"所以這個重點我想在這邊還是要釐清因為剛才其實剛才都已經說明過很多次但是我覺得這個說明就因為我們有一些部分我們就聚焦在這個目前這個委員提案跟我們法務部目前的還沒有送到立法院來的這個草案有一些地方是不一樣的所以這個好像剛剛聚焦在這個討論但是我想"},{"start":191.536,"end":197.147,"text":"前提上還是要讓法務部來說明這7年來法務部都在睡覺嗎?"},{"start":198.789,"end":224.592,"text":"市長包委員因為這裡面包括剛才委員就叫的很多就是會有是不是有失衡 制定有失衡的問題我們召開的11次的一個演唱會議很多學者專家也都有不同的意見要整合這些要花很多很多的時間我想重點是這樣子的我們看到你剛才一再說明說我們從這個"},{"start":226.936,"end":241.951,"text":"這2017年四海國事會議之後我們大概從2019年開始我們這個我們2019年我們法務部的最早的這個草案就提出來了就送到行政院但是在行政院之後我們經過11次的會議的這個審查會議對不對對這11次的審查會議"},{"start":249.417,"end":266.642,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一"},{"start":268.625,"end":290.377,"text":"問題出在哪裡?他一定有他的一些爭點。剛才大概有做一些說明,是不是能夠請你現在比較聚焦的說幾個讓這個我們審查會議進行11次,他裡面比較重要的幾個正義焦點。報告委員,氣泡潛逃是來自於美國的立法的概念。"},{"start":292.058,"end":319.849,"text":"相對的在歐陸法系裡面基於一個很重要的原則叫做不自證己罪的原則不自證己罪對所以他歐陸的法系是比較沒有這樣的立法對但是我們司改國制會議已經做成這樣的決議而且我們法務部也支持我們自己的草案裡面也有這樣的立法所以這個部分就不用再說了這個部分應該是一次會議就結局了包委員我的意思是說因為我們的刑事實體法還是主要是歐陸傳習過來"},{"start":321.81,"end":344.663,"text":"三）委員羅智強等二十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一"},{"start":350.606,"end":369.341,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":370.594,"end":392.104,"text":"所以剛剛所講的你說這個歐陸法系不制正己罪原則等等這些可能在我們提出法務部提出草案之前的前階段的討論我相信進入這11次的審查會議裡面他的焦點不會是這個他今天會拖到11次會議一再修改一再各界有意見"},{"start":393.183,"end":410.635,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三"},{"start":411.175,"end":431.935,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":433.857,"end":446.904,"text":"這個罪行相當的原則。」這個部分在立法過程中有很多我們所立出來的草案學者有不同的意見這是第一個另外剛剛有提到有一些部分是有關明確性的原則"},{"start":448.029,"end":471.665,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百"},{"start":474.625,"end":489.92,"text":"此外也提到要符合比例原則,在比例原則上也有一些不同的見解。所以這11次的會議並不是我們在拖延,而是有關剛剛所講的這些,包括今天黨團的提案、委員的提案,"},{"start":495.566,"end":509.54,"text":"本身裡面如果這個是司法部的草案的話我想在這11次會議不要說11次會議12次13次14次按照這種條文也是不會過啦因為裡面也確實有一些有一些部分是不符合這些原則的嘛對不對是好所以"},{"start":513.646,"end":519.995,"text":"三（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．"},{"start":530.765,"end":543.682,"text":"報告委員我們現在有一些會議有一些文字還在修改馬上就會送給我們陳和完了以後就會要會前司法院"},{"start":546.067,"end":562.585,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一"},{"start":563.806,"end":579.581,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":581.328,"end":608.993,"text":"多久?因為又牽扯到司法院院會的問題我知道司法院院會到處在司法院會今天因為我們是法官來不是如果說今天秘書長來我們就來問司法院的進度今天是我們行事廳所以我們就不太能夠很精確的講我現在不講會前的部分什麼時候行政院的部分會送到這個司法院會前我們只能禁訴因為真的只剩下文字修改而已真的所以這部分我不想齁"},{"start":610.598,"end":632.663,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":637.384,"end":657.231,"text":"重點是我們你剛講說盡快很快而且這個是最後的修改了所以有沒有辦法這半年之內半年之內送到立法院來我們我們進我們進朝這個目標前進朝這個目標啦吼我這樣問好了那你們最後你們你們最後的文字修改什麼時候會送到行政院這個你總總總這個你訪問部總說得出來吧"},{"start":663.496,"end":690.189,"text":"那行政院給我們的時間是這禮拜五這禮拜五對所以你們這禮拜五就會送到行政院對對對對那這樣子的進度齁我想這個這個因為這整個立法體力它不只是不只是這個棄保潛逃啦今天也就很多委員提案是棄保潛逃事實上它是整個妨礙妨礙司法公正的相關的這些法令這些法令的整個整個體甚至那個這個章潔明章潔都必須要新增了齁新增"},{"start":690.669,"end":717.054,"text":"所以我個人是也在這邊建議主席希望說我們能夠不要讓法務部這過去7年這11次的努力變成白費我們還是等待法務部的草案能夠從行政院送到司法院會前之後送到立法院來我們再併案來審查這部分是本席的建議以上"}]}},{"id":"154701","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154701","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9f5491f99d0275d44160fff40bb8bca63c114453cb9c203b055ef2657418d39405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:09:45 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10:20:20","影片長度":"00:10:35","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:09:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T10:20:20+08:00","duration":635,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":429,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時9分）謝謝主席。有請次長，謝謝。"],["主席：請次長，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長早安。我想要跟次長談一談關於體育署升格的事情。我們來看一下，左手邊這張圖是現行的組織圖，右手邊是我們在相關會議當中看到的運動發展部組織圖草案，請問次長，你覺得左邊跟右邊有沒有很大差別？我時間有限，次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：坦白講，這個就是從原來體育署的架構裡面，特別把全民運動跟運動產業的部分抽出來。另外，運動產業除了行政體系的司或署之外，當時的規劃，是希望能夠成立一個更靈活的法人性質的國家運動產業發展中心，從這裡看出來，在體育署升格之後，有很大的兩個部分，除了原來的體育運動之外，還有針對運動產業的鼓勵，就是剛才很多委員都關心的議題，另外就是全民運動的普及化。現在因為我們的運動產業市場規模小，事實上，很多運動選手從小培養到一定程度，甚至為國爭光，但是他未來、之後的出路其實是沒有那麼大的，以前我們常常也討論說，如果臺灣的運動產業沒有很健全、沒有蓬勃發展，那這些從小訓練到大、為國爭光，甚至奧運拿到金牌的選手，事實上，未來的出路是受限的，所以良好的運動產業環境非常重要。","另外我們也回過頭來思考，除了過去這種菁英式的栽培之外，是不是也應該讓運動能夠普及化、全民化？臺灣過去都是靠政府補助，譬如學校裡的菁英式訓練，以前我在臺中市的時候，33個國小有16支棒球隊，現在拿到世界冠軍之後，反而剩下4隊跟5隊菁英式練習。所謂全民運動是希望能夠跟世界比較強的國家，像美國、日本一樣，他們在國小、國中就有很多團體，不一定是在學校，而是社團、俱樂部……"],["陳委員培瑜：是運動俱樂部。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，以前大家下課之後只會去才藝班，補美術……"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，我時間有限……"],["張廖次長萬堅：補國語、英文，將來可能也會有運動，就是家長覺得運動很好，可以去補桌球、上棒球課、上網球課，其實這跟美國、日本是一樣的，我們希望這兩個部分可以加強。"],["陳委員培瑜：可以併行。好，我讓次長講這麼多、占這麼多時間，是因為我想要讓大家聽一聽，看起來次長對這件事情確實是有掌握的，而且也是有你的價值跟想像在裡頭，對嗎？過去你在擔任立委期間，其實一直都非常關心體育運動……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想有很多關心體育運動的委員，包括你以及在場的大家，應該都知道，我們希望在升格之後，這個部分能夠加強。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，但是要加強，目前看起來是面臨了一些實質的困難。在還沒有升格之前，我認為體育署自己也知道面臨的很大困境就是組織文化的問題，這不只來自體育署內部，還有更多是來自外部整個體育界的氛圍。每一次我們只要到教文委員會來質詢體育署，得到的回應狀況常常讓我冒出問號，怎麼說呢？我舉一些例子跟次長分享，第一個，6月12號質詢時，我提出很多問題，包括在體育署補助的賽事現場，竟然看到了有性騷行為人來當工作人員，我不知道這個次長或署長記不記得？網友對此有很多討論，甚至我在質詢臺上也詢問過體育署。再來看下一個，我們也談過北部球隊教練不當體罰、不當對待選手，而且不是只有在高職，甚至在國中端也一樣。次長，我們今天不一個一個談case，因為這些全部我都講過……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這些都有在處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，可是已讀不回，就是已讀不回，真的不知道為什麼？再來，同一場質詢，我談到大仁國中，目前我們收到的狀態一樣是石沉大海。次長，你過去擔任委員多年，關心基層教育文化，看到我們的質詢被這樣對待，你怎麼看待這些事情處理的緩慢？我剛剛說了，也許不見得全部都是體育署內部的問題，是整個體育界外部文化的問題，但我們的行政機關，到底還能夠做哪些事情？","在我關心體育的這一年多當中，就是我進到立法院工作之後，我常常在網路上看很多網友留言，大家一直在問一件事情，因為大家知道政治的手不能伸入運動界，可是如果現在不是把政治的手伸進去，而是把錢放進去，其實我們臺灣的政府花非常多的錢補助這些單項協會或補助非常多的運動發展，如同次長你剛剛說的，可是身為主管機關，當我們面對很多事情時，好像都沒有辦法有所作為，到底該怎麼辦？這只是我舉的其中幾個現象，4月18號我一樣有質詢，這個案子已經追蹤超過半年以上，我問體育署為什麼這個人可以在……他是違反兒少法，而且列入第四十九條的公告資料庫裡面，但是他繼續在體育署主辦的賽事現場大搖大擺主持會議，體育署沒有給我們清楚的說明，給我們的回復叫做「無法——說明」，而且體育署補助照給、比賽照辦。","另外還有3月21號的臨時提案 ，朝野都有共識，大家希望把欠錢的部分可以解決清楚，而且我們把當時的人、事、時、地、物都很明確地給予資料，可是回復依然令人失望，這個回復擺明就是掩護，他說都有回，體育署書面報告回復我們說「全數撥款並通知當事人」，如果我對體育署是百分之百信任，可能這件事情到這裡就結案了，可是我請辦公室助理去查證，非常多球員跟相關當事人都沒有收到錢、錢都沒有收回來，到底怎麼回事？","我不是要請次長今天突然第一時間回答我，我剛剛花這麼多時間讓次長談您對體育署升格的期待跟您想要做的事情，談這麼多，我要講的是有沒有機會請次長在您的任內監督體育署在升格的過程當中，把更多您過往在當委員的無奈……因為您現在當了次長，我們共同來解決與面對，因為接下來就休會了，我相信我們有比較多的時間，不管是開會討論，或者是跟各個團體、各個球員或相關代表討論，我們是不是可以更積極地做更多的事情？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我上任之後，只要聽到剛才委員所提的，每一個單項或者每一個學校裡面發生這個事件，我都會問署長怎麼會發生這個事情、現在到底是增加還是減少以及為什麼？署長跟我說事實上大家現在都非常關心，只要個案發生，媒體一定大幅報導。事實上，整個數量、整個發生的頻率究竟還在增加還是在減少，我都請他一定要認真地去面對跟檢討。第二個，我來公部門之後，其實我也非常重視，因為我負責督導體育署，體育署因為面臨升格的壓力以及奧運的籌辦，現在有很多的事情，包括今天要審的運動產業發展條例，我想我們都非常認真的在面對，也開過好幾次會。我個人也不會是以前當委員的時候這樣主張，現在因為當了次長之後負責體育署我就改變立場。事實上，剛才我也誠實的跟大院報告，針對運產條例第二十六條之二，當年我也主張250%，後來只有通過150%，看到現在有委員提出來，我也是說一定支持。事實上，政府是一個團隊，它涉及到財政部的一些立場，不管是當年在協調的時候，或是未來在協商的時候，我們都希望繼續再爭取。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，謝謝，因為我時間有限。我真的非常相信次長您是有改革的決心，所以我就直接……"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：在這整個會期當中，我們花了這麼多時間談了這麼多個案，可是我要說其實個案不是增加或減少的問題，而是整個體育界的文化……"],["張廖次長萬堅：就像你講的，是態度跟回應的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，就官方來說是態度跟回應的問題，可是就我們站在民間的角度來看，其實是整個體育文化要改變的問題，如果現在在這些位置上……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這部分我們會來檢討。"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得在位置上的大家如果都願意相信體育可以往更文明、更現代化的腳步去走，對未來的整個臺灣體育發展才是好事，甚且劉柏君都還提醒我們，不要再講體育了，要講運動。體育是侷限在學校裡面，運動是全民的，所以我提出比較具體的要求，請次長落實要求體育署要正視所有委員質詢的問題，我剛剛說不是只有我們辦公室被這樣對待，其實非常多委員對於體育署相關的回應都非常的納悶，而且我們希望實質進行列管，case by case的列管，這個部分會有困難嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我會督促如實來做。"],["陳委員培瑜：尤其是針對兒少跟運動員權益的部分，如同您說的，常常一個事情就上新聞，次長你一定知道新聞為什麼要報？因為大家在意兒少議題，大家在意運動員的權益，不應該只有組織的問題被解決，其實運動員權益的問題非常重要。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我今天提了這麼多，針對回復不實或者是還沒有處理的案件，有沒有機會在一個月內提出檢討跟事件處理報告？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我會找體育署，我們一起來……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們辦公室也會繼續跟體育署開會，確保相關的案件……"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：未來體育署升格的事情我們就一起努力，謝謝次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員林德\n福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案；四、審查委員陳培瑜等21\n人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案；五、審查\n台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.485343750000002,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.898468750000003,"end":10.915343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.915343750000002,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.758468750000002,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.33221875,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.31034375,"end":21.715343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.53971875,"end":40.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.80534375,"end":99.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.744718750000004,"end":50.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.33596875,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.91596875000002,"end":143.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.81846875000002,"end":146.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.69159375,"end":146.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.48034375,"end":148.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.53096875,"end":148.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.59846875000002,"end":148.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.23096875000002,"end":151.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.33221875,"end":151.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.46721875,"end":151.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.03534375,"end":176.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.51409375,"end":185.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.67409375,"end":178.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.09909375,"end":242.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.59659375,"end":243.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.57534375,"end":319.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.81971875,"end":299.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.77409375,"end":327.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.28346875,"end":359.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.63284375,"end":381.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.80659375000005,"end":398.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.36096875000004,"end":399.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.90096875,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.96846875,"end":407.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.61284375,"end":411.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.84846875000005,"end":482.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.77409375,"end":498.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.09034375000005,"end":485.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.38909375000003,"end":490.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.84346875000006,"end":499.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.68284375,"end":509.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.59284375000004,"end":510.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.58846875000006,"end":522.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.53159375,"end":522.9365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.00409375,"end":543.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.67034375,"end":525.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.40596875,"end":546.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.4140937500001,"end":545.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.15659375,"end":578.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.53409375,"end":560.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.70284375,"end":560.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.37221875,"end":570.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.41346875,"end":578.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.0165937500001,"end":578.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.5053437500001,"end":585.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.22909375,"end":596.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.5747187500001,"end":598.1484687500001},{"s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案 。"},{"start":382.847,"end":383.047,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":399.734,"end":400.494,"text":"四、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":415.959,"end":418.121,"text":"三條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之二條之"},{"start":440.117,"end":463.396,"text":"因為面臨升格的壓力還有奧運的籌辦那現在有很多的事情包括今天要審的運動產業發展條例我想我們都非常認真的在面對開過好幾次會那我個人也不會因為說以前當委員這樣主張然後當了這個次長之後負責體育署我就改變立場事實上剛才我也跟誠實的跟大院報告運產條例26條之二當年我主張250%後來只有通過150%看到"},{"start":468.2,"end":476.304,"text":"三條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":483.268,"end":498.34,"text":"次長謝謝因為我時間有限我我因為真的非常相信次長您是有改革的決心所以我就直接在這整個會期當中我們花了這麼多時間談這麼多個案可是我要說其實個案不是增加或減少的問題而是整個體育界的文化"},{"start":500.281,"end":521.6,"text":"對還有就是就官方來說是態度跟回應的問題可是就我們站在民間我們來看是整個體育文化要改變的問題喔如果現在在這些位置上的這部分我們會來檢討是我覺得在這個位置上的大家如果都願意相信體育可以往更文明更現代化的腳步去走絕對對未來的整個台灣體育發展才是好事甚且劉伯鈞都還提醒我們不要再講體育了要講運動"},{"start":523.161,"end":523.702,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":543.442,"end":544.483,"text":"二條之一條之一條"},{"start":560.877,"end":561.998,"text":"二、審查委員張雅玲等19人擬具"},{"start":595.236,"end":596.258,"text":"三條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":608.8,"end":618.607,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例四、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例五、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例六、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例七、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例八、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例九、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條"}]}},{"id":"154700","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154700","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db92430c6b4ea86e553e6fdecbb7cc8faa7c114453cb9c203b06013a5e6b2b6089b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:04:04 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10:13:27","影片長度":"00:09:23","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:04:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T10:13:27+08:00","duration":563,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":37,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-37"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":353,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時4分）謝謝主席、召委。我們有請徐次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長早。我們今天要討論的是有關刑法部分條文的修正草案，從各位委員還有黨團的版本來看，主要是將妨害司法公正的法制給完備。我們從機關的報告來看，對於修法的目的，應該也是給予正面的支持，畢竟我們從過去在新聞上的案例來看，確實有些社會矚目的案件是透過邪門歪道的手段來妨害司法，讓犯罪者無視法制而逍遙法外，這不但是有失我們司法的威信和公正性，也讓民眾喪失對司法的信心，所以健全法制的相關措施來逐步落實司法國是會議的決議尤其重要，不僅要維護司法體系的公平性、回應民眾對司法改革高度的期待，也能夠讓檢警在辦案的過程中更有信心伸張正義。","就棄保潛逃入罪的部分，本席想就教法務部有關現況和修法的規劃。過去曾發生朱國榮的個案，對於刑期較高的經濟犯來說，他潛逃之後，我們依法只能沒收他的保證金，沒有辦法有其他有效的懲罰，相當於讓財力雄厚的人能用一筆保證金抵罪，幫自己免除牢獄之災，倘若這樣的案例不斷地發生，不免讓人覺得有權勢的人就能夠胡作非為。我想就教次長，這是不是也反映現有的防逃機制還是不夠周全，對於被告脫逃所需付出的成本不高，法務部對此有什麼樣的檢討措施？"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。針對以往的規定，具保免予羈押的話，如果他潛逃，就只能沒入保證金。現在我們提出草案將棄保潛逃入罪，其實我們在之前科技防逃就已經都建立好平臺，如果具保的話，其實法官也可以裁定給他戴電子腳鐐或手環等等所謂羈押的替代措施，這些都是事後我們檢討以後為了防止他潛逃所做的努力及改善。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。對於運用科技手段強化防逃的機制，剛剛次長您也說了電子腳鐐類的相關事務，我想在過去一段時間已經有相關的討論，也就是在修法之前能夠藉由電子監控或科技輔助來杜絕被告潛逃，如果真的發生逃亡的情形，也能夠即時讓相關單位得知，馬上來追捕。尤其法務部和司法院還共同建置科技設備的監控中心，我想請教，目前我們在科技設備監控的使用上成效如何？是否會再擴大使用？沒關係，次長還是……"],["徐次長錫祥：目前有五十幾案……"],["陳委員俊宇：五十幾案？"],["徐次長錫祥：有五十幾案在監控中。"],["陳委員俊宇：未來有可能再擴大使用嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：高檢署還是每個月跟廠商會召開維運專案會議，隨時修正、調整、優化系統，減少錯誤及繁複的作業程序，持續來調整及放寬部分告警的條件，減少不必要的告警。臺高檢也會持續地精進，辦理教育訓練及參訪活動，強化法官、檢察官對於科技設備監控系統的熟悉度，增加運用度。因為這個過程還是有精進的空間，以免有時候會……"],["陳委員俊宇：次長，您覺得我們現在的成效是好、還是壞？"],["徐次長錫祥：可以再加強，因為不是很普遍，應該再繼續加強。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我們也看到先前的案例，被告在交保之後接受的電子監控是一支專用的手機，只要自拍自己的臉部相片，加上指紋的辨識，就可以完成遠距的報到，不僅能夠有效掌握被告的行蹤，也能夠減輕檢警所付出的成本。我想請教次長，手機報到的科技監控方式已經取代傳統的模式了嗎？在實務上，它所適用的案件數量是否已經達到預期的目標？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，目前居家讀取器及個案手機是選用的設備，並不是普遍的，是他自己選用的。"],["陳委員俊宇：選用？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，屬於我們法定的是電子腳鐐及電子手環，這個部分是我們……"],["陳委員俊宇：我發現到一個問題想提醒一下，現在科技日新月異，AI製程的仿真人影片也滿趨於真實。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：會不會以假亂真，再加上一些科技的手法，來規避監控，進而脫逃？這也可能會造成以上我們講的情形發生，所以還是提醒法務部對這部分……"],["徐次長錫祥：是，我們會注意，我們會注意。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，有關棄保潛逃的部分，我想法務部也有自己研擬的版本，同樣要處罰透過逃亡、藏匿的行為，想要脫逃刑事制裁的被告，報告之中也提及委員提案與法務部研擬中的草案構成要件設計略有差異。我想請教次長，法務部所研擬的相關版本與今天所審查的內容上有什麼區別，是不是請次長簡單說明一下？"],["徐次長錫祥：請問委員，是就棄保潛逃的部分？"],["陳委員俊宇：對，棄保潛逃的部分。"],["徐次長錫祥：因為有部分委員把發布通緝作為棄保潛逃罪的要件之一，發布通緝有時候是因為傳喚不到，有時候是郵務的問題，我們認為這樣入刑的話，是有一點比較嚴格了一點。所以我們主張要有具體的逃亡、藏匿事實，才認為是棄保潛逃罪，而不是單就書面上因為找不到人、發布通緝，就已經構成犯罪。","再來，我們主張在裁判宣告，就是本刑宣告前如果自動歸案，接受逃亡、藏匿案件偵審執行的話，我們減輕其刑。對這個部分，我們認為在本刑宣告前歸案的話，就可以就他棄保潛逃的部分可以減輕，但委員可能認為輕罪、不起訴處分者，棄保潛逃的部分就不要處分，這個會討論到一個問題，就是如果他因為逃亡、藏匿而讓我們偵審困難，以至於他本案獲判無罪，反而他就會有兩個獲利，本案也獲利，逃亡也獲利，這樣子的話，等於更鼓勵民眾逃亡，所以我們認為這是脫鉤的。我們的重點在於他棄保潛逃的部分要單獨來看，本案的部分是不受影響的，這樣子的話，才能督促他一定要到案接受審理。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝次長。我們剛剛討論了一下，刑罰不會是我們唯一的手段，加重罰責也不一定是最好的方法，面對現在有這麼多棄保潛逃在外的案例，立法院要修法相當地容易，不過真正的核心應該還是要有一個能夠有效杜絕脫逃的設計，這個部分真的要請法務部及司法院再精進，在防逃的機制上更加地用心。以上。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","下一位請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-37","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","羅智強","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等27\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.68846875,"end":9.126593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.396593750000001,"end":10.020968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.73784375,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.644718750000003,"end":64.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.76346875,"end":99.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.94784375,"end":133.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.17034375,"end":135.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.75659375,"end":136.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.90409375000002,"end":150.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.04596875000001,"end":147.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.89346875,"end":166.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.80659375000002,"end":172.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.23596875,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.02784375000002,"end":182.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.95596875,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.97284375,"end":183.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.66471875000002,"end":199.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.23596875,"end":227.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.01596875,"end":231.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","st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"end":345.098,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具"},{"start":361.485,"end":376.695,"text":"我發現到一個問題想提醒就是因為我們現在科技也日新月異那AI的這個製程的這種仿真人的影片也蠻趨於這個真實的那會不會以假亂真那再加上一些科技的這個手法來這個規避監控"},{"start":378.796,"end":393.533,"text":"竟而脫逃,這也可能會造成剛剛以上我們所講的這種情形來發生所以還是提醒我們法務部對這個部分另外有關這個棄保潛逃的部分我想法務部這邊也有自己的研擬的版本"},{"start":394.854,"end":418.794,"text":"要處罰透過逃亡藏匿的行為想要脫逃刑事制裁的這個被告那報告之中也提及委員這個提案與法務部研擬中的草案構成要件設計略有差異那我想請教我們次長我們這個法務部所研擬的這個相關的版本那會與今天所審查的內容上有什麼區別是不是請次長這個簡單說明一下"},{"start":422.401,"end":423.582,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":438.112,"end":438.613,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具"},{"start":453.796,"end":471.956,"text":"才能認為是棄保潛逃罪,而不是單就書面上因為找不到人發誤通緝就已經構成這個犯罪。那至於再來就是我們是主張在裁判宣告就是本行的宣告前如果自動歸案呢接受逃亡藏匿案件的偵審的話執行我們減輕其刑。"},{"start":474.679,"end":475.679,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件 規範規範規範規範規範規範規範規範規範"},{"start":502.509,"end":503.01,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具"},{"start":519.225,"end":537.914,"text":"那本案的部分的話是不受影響的,這樣子的話才會能夠督促他一定要到案來接受審理。好,謝謝次長。那我想我們剛剛討論一下,那針對這個刑法不會是我們唯一的一個手段。那加重罰則也不一定是最好的方法。"},{"start":538.394,"end":562.442,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"}]}},{"id":"154699","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154699","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db959c9c94b8175513d39b61d768c41420ec114453cb9c203b00c047472bec184315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:05:31 - 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立法院職權行使法國民黨一直在談的可是國民黨在談的自己現在又是違規違法了"},{"start":226.946,"end":255.003,"text":"再一次強調,判決確定前之訴訟案件,就其偵查或審判所為之處置及其卷證,立法院不得行使調查權。所以剛剛已經講了,你們從所有的媒體google一下對於這一個超市蛋有多少個檢調已經在查了包括地檢署包括調查處都在查了監察院也在查了"},{"start":256.328,"end":275.464,"text":"那請問我們可以去行使調查權嗎?這是你們白抓黑你寫的喔這是你們國民黨自己所寫的所提的喔那難道我們現在在做違規違法的動作嗎?先不要談違憲囉,現在憲法法庭在執行當中但是又違規違法了所以今天要怎麼成立?太好笑了吧!"}]}},{"id":"154698","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154698","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9ed1ce2ef84edabef160fff40bb8bca63c114453cb9c203b0cd073220c318363b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:00:01 - 10:09:40","影片長度":"00:09:39","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:00:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T10:09:40+08:00","duration":579,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":376,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時）謝謝主席。有請次長，還有署長。"],["主席：我們請次長跟署長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：早安。我想要問一下，因為接著下來大家都會聚焦在巴黎奧運的部分。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：巴黎奧運這一次包含他們的選手村是主打環保，然後要減碳，原先他們說並不會為選手村的七千個房間安裝冷氣，但是後來在各國的要求之下，因為巴黎其實也是非常非常的高溫，高溫甚至高達34、35度，隨著這樣子暖化的狀況，所以巴黎奧運也成為最熱的一屆奧運。這次因為在各地代表團的要求之下，所以已經確定要為選手村訂購2,500台冷氣，大概有三之一的房間是可以使用的，這個部分我想要問一下，有沒有包含我們臺灣的選手？"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然有，這2,500台裡面就是包括我們跟大會租用的50台，每一個房間都裝。"],["郭委員昱晴：是移動式的冷氣嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：有50台，但我們這次一行人大概去多少人？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們的團員有100個人在選手村裡面。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛好是這50個房間裡嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們以選手為主。"],["郭委員昱晴：關於安裝的問題，我也想要請問一下，如果大家有去過歐洲、去過巴黎的話，你會發現其實巴黎人……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們的先遣人員12號就會到了，然後18號以前會安裝完成。"],["郭委員昱晴：這已經是跟巴黎官方有在做的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，前置作業都已經安排，預定的時間。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我想這次如果有這樣子一個補救的措施，讓選手在選手村當中能夠得到一個比較舒適的環境。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，你秀出來的照片裡面，我們選手大概都是住那個三至四坪的規格，所以我們大概租了50台。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，所以安裝上也沒有任何的問題？"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有問題、沒有問題！"],["郭委員昱晴：好，那我想這個部分我們應該有得到一個解答了。另外，剛剛也有多位委員特別提到，就是在我們的籃球部分，我想商業價值向來用來實際換算所謂男性或女性運動賽事作為薪資報酬的標準，但其實都不應該用這樣子的商業考量，體育署署長事後當然也做了一些解釋，我想問的是，除了這一次我們會補足這兩千塊錢，讓它變成所謂齊頭式的平等，但我剛剛聽到，您覺得補這兩千塊進去，其實跟原本我們在預想的，你說是沒有差別的！但對我來講其實差別很大，那個補來的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，這樣子啦……"],["郭委員昱晴：你聽得懂我在講的嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我懂。"],["郭委員昱晴：那個心裡的感受。"],["張廖次長萬堅：署長講的是最後的結果是一樣的啦！就是實質上的鼓勵……"],["郭委員昱晴：但是過程其實是有點粗糙跟瑕疵。"],["張廖次長萬堅：但是我個人認為用這樣的名詞還是有歧視啦！事實上，這個事情發生之後，我也主動跟署長講怎麼會發生這樣的狀況，署長跟我說他已經發表聲明了，就是已經表達對這個的立場，因為籃協畢竟是民間團體，但是它是國家重要比賽的一個國際窗口，它常常要辦一些國際賽事，它用這樣的態度，其實相當程度反映的是不平等的觀念，所以我記得今天運動產業發展條例的修法，好像有委員提到，希望不管是主企業球隊或者是職業球隊都能夠注意到男女平權這個事情，所以我們是非常支持這樣子一個，不管是宣示性，或者實質性的表達。"],["郭委員昱晴：不應該有任何差別待遇。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我想這些單項協會……其實像巴黎這次舉辦，它非常重視男女平權，而且是身心障礙跟一般奧運、帕運，都是一樣，都非常重視。"],["郭委員昱晴：是一樣的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以我覺得運動平權是國際的潮流，國內目前要升格為體育部，我們以這樣子的規格在推動國家運動賽事，我相信所有的單項協會也必須要有這樣子一個價值觀念。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想不是只有出場費這一點而已。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，當然，所有……"],["郭委員昱晴：包含所謂的醫療器材，或者是後勤的醫療等等……"],["張廖次長萬堅：待遇都是一樣的。"],["郭委員昱晴：還有之後所謂硬體上的設備，其實都不應該要有男女不平等的歧視狀況。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，沒有錯。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，因為時間關係，接下來我想問一下，就是教育部體育署在補助、推動學校體育部分，尤其是選手們所謂的移地訓練部分，這一塊我們收到很多學校的反映，甚至選手自己也來跟我們反映，表示選項是不是不要只有中國，或者是有沒有其他選項可以做移地訓練？這個部分，不曉得次長有什麼看法？"],["張廖次長萬堅：以我個人經驗，我覺得如果是入選國家隊，譬如透過正常賽事，那當然在集訓及移地訓練上都有一定的補助標準，但如果是各級學校自己本身的訓練或者移地，我想大部分都是學校自籌，不太可能中央或者地方政府會編列預算來支持所有運動團隊做這種所謂的集訓和國內外移地訓練。坦白講，我覺得基層的運動還是需要很多企業界或者家長會支持，在國外，其實很多高中以下的運動團隊，都是屬於社團性的俱樂部，也會有很多家長及民間的支持，我們臺灣比較特別，臺灣是比較菁英式訓練，常常是為國爭光，所以我們賦予政府很大的角色，一定要從小補助到大，而這樣的觀念。事實上，在將來升格為體育部之後，我們在推展全民運動時，這個觀念會稍微平衡一下，就是透過全民投入資源的方式來鼓勵基層運動，從基層到中央，這也是今天我們修運動產業發展條例的目的，希望能夠讓運動產業的環境更健全，讓這些孩子從小開始訓練，除了得到政府的照顧之外，民間、家長資源的投注，也很重要。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我想要更多宣導，再來就是要提供他們更多的選擇，而不是真的就只能操縱於學校、操縱於教練，決定派我們的孩子到哪裡做移地訓練就到哪裡訓練。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，沒有錯，沒有錯。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，最後我問一下，就是有關運動產業發展的捐款部分，大家都知道，臺灣的科技產業其實是真的非常非常不錯，問題是我們看到金融保險業的捐款占第一名，但科技製造業反而不是，這個部分，我在想是不是跟所謂的基本所得稅額有一些些關係？舉例來講，比方B公司賺了1,000萬，他的成本是500萬，如果依照第二十六條之二的規定，捐款223萬就是150%的認列，公司的基本稅額是33.2萬，但他如果有捐款的話，所得稅額變成是33.1萬，也就是說可能超過某個定額之後，他就不會再捐了，因為這樣他其實就沒有得到一些所謂所得稅的鼓勵……"],["張廖次長萬堅：鼓勵，對。"],["郭委員昱晴：這個部分，我們有沒有……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，你這個想法跟我一樣，事實上，臺灣的運動產業市場真的非常小，要鼓勵企業投入，而企業投入運動產業到現在能夠分潤、能夠有盈餘的非常少，在這種狀況下，政府的政策引導跟鼓勵非常重要，所以過去在修第二十六條之二時，我們都希望能夠提高誘因，讓企業投入更多，但大家知道體育署是三級單位，坦白講，在支持上，當教育部跟財政部協商的時候，財政部會認為150%已經是一個霸王條款，如果再往上增加的話，可能會有一些稅損跟其他不利的關係，所以我們也在努力要怎麼樣……所以賴總統支持體育部升格，不分黨派大家都支持是非常重要的，將來升格之後，譬如科技產業，我也覺得臺灣是科技島，科技產業的出口占臺灣總值這麼大，可是為什麼都是金控在支持？"],["郭委員昱晴：沒錯。"],["張廖次長萬堅：這部分假如我們能夠……當然還沒有升格前，我們也可以透過一些跨部會的協調，譬如科技部、國科會或者經濟部這邊，能夠協助我們接觸科技產業，我想很多科技產業界大概也願意支持，只是沒有一個管道。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，大家都已經意識到這個問題，我們就朝這個方向來努力。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝，謝謝郭委員的支持。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員林德\n福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案；四、審查委員陳培瑜等21\n人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案；五、審查\n台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.95409375,"end":9.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.71721875,"end":11.337218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.78409375,"end":14.442218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.644718750000003,"end":29.309093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.15846875,"end":21.934718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.95159375,"end":21.96846875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案"},{"start":207.305,"end":230.352,"text":"所以事實上這個事情發生之後我也主動跟署長講說怎麼會發生這樣的狀況那署長跟我說他已經發表聲明了就是說已經表達對這個立場因為藍協畢竟是民間團體但是他是國家重要比賽的一個國際窗口他常常要辦一些國際賽事那他用這樣的態度其實相當程度反映的是不平等的觀念所以我記得今天運動產業發展條例裡面"},{"start":231.872,"end":241.44,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第1會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第1會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第1會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":256.852,"end":257.212,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":276.047,"end":279.67,"text":"一條文修正草案案 案 ﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":305.689,"end":307.572,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":321.91,"end":326.193,"text":"二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第12條之二條文修正草案：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":341.383,"end":353.629,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人"},{"start":371.098,"end":371.398,"text":"三條之二條之二條之"},{"start":395.031,"end":408.256,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":425.423,"end":448.28,"text":"最後來我問一下就是說在我們的這個運動產業的發展捐款的部分那大家都知道台灣的科技產業其實是真的非常非常的不錯但是問題是我們看到了是金融保險業他們的捐款是佔第一名但我們的科技製造業反而不是那這個部分我在想是不是跟我們的這個所謂的"},{"start":450.683,"end":451.203,"text":"三條之一條文草案 案 。"},{"start":472.159,"end":472.96,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":502.439,"end":502.9,"text":"三條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":520.59,"end":520.91,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":544.216,"end":570.781,"text":"科技產業的出口占台灣的這個種子這麼大可是為什麼都是金空在支持所以我想這部分假如我們能夠當然還沒升格前我們當然也可以透過一些跨部會的一個協調比如說科技部國科會或者是其他的這個經濟部這邊能夠來協助我們來接觸我想很多科技產業他們大概也願意支持只是沒有一個管道"},{"start":571.603,"end":571.944,"text":"三條之一條"}]}},{"id":"154697","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154697","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db905b6ece2f0095da3e6fdecbb7cc8faa7c114453cb9c203b048df2a3e15060a625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:50:21 - 10:03:51","影片長度":"00:13:30","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T09:50:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T10:03:51+08:00","duration":810,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":37,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-37"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":313,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時50分）謝謝召委，有請法務部徐次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：司法院朱法官也有來，是嗎？也先請一下。我先請教次長，我記得7月3號本席在這個地方質詢的時候，針對監獄相關人員的危勞津貼，我記得我就教了你們另外一位黃世杰次長，他說對他們危勞加給的部分，你們的態度是怎麼樣，7月3號你們回答我說，你們已經準備好資料，今日就會向行政院提案，但我看你們今天的回答怎麼又變成你們法務部要研議？這個落差太大了。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，很抱歉，因為沒有接收到，可能因為是黃政次他主管的業務，我負責督導的是檢察業務。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以政策沒有分歧？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有，沒有分歧。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以以哪一位講的為準。"],["徐次長錫祥：以黃政次講的為準。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以說7月3號……"],["徐次長錫祥：我剛才回答研議是因為我回去還要請教他。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個不要開玩笑，因為我7月3號在這邊質詢，你們已經跟我說資料你們都準備好了，當天你們就會向行政院院會提案，現在的進度呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：以黃政次為主。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好吧，我想這個部分要特別注意一下。","我今天要特別來就教的是，今天在討論棄保潛逃跟妨害司法公正相關的條文，本席看到這麼多的委員對這件事情很關心，我相信對於這個社會上逃亡或棄保潛逃的很多態樣，大家都非常的厭惡，可是有一部分我倒也覺得納悶，就是在野黨的版本對於依法逮捕脫逃的人，或者具保以後傳喚不到通緝者，兩種同樣都是民眾，但把他們放在一樣的罪責裡面，都是三年，這個你認為有沒有什麼特別的目的？我要就教次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：通緝的部分我們也是請大院要特別慎重，因為通緝的原因有很多種，有時候是郵遞的失誤，他沒有收到，如果因為通緝就要處刑責，這個一定要慎重，所以我們在草案裡面就不把這一項列為是要處刑事責任的部分，應該要有具體的藏匿、逃亡，所謂的具體就是我們的確有去查訪過，蒐集了相關的跡證，證明他在我們強制處分以後跑掉了，而不是單獨說以發布通緝……"],["莊委員瑞雄：要特別小心啦，你說妨害刑事執行程序，就是脫逃罪，或者說刑事偵查審判程序裡面棄保潛逃，罪刑一樣都是關三年，我到現在還是百思不得其解啦。這在我看來，就是因為大家認為這很討厭，就增加其罪刑，就是這樣一個理由而已。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，關於這部分我剛才有一點沒有具體的講出來，就是脫逃罪本身是侵害國家的一個……譬如破壞機具，或者是已經在逮捕拘禁的程序上，他跑掉了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就是在公權力的監督之下，全部都算嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：在監督之下跑掉了。這個只是單純的強制處分以後他逃亡然後藏匿，並不是對現下的一個……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的意思就是你們對這樣的立法方式有沒有疑義？我問你們有沒有感受到？難道真的都沒有嗎？我簡單來講，很多法界的前輩都在這個地方，大家都是很專業的人，你去看我們刑法第一百六十一條脫逃罪，一年以下，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，我們草案有提高。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我說本來都是一年以下。"],["徐次長錫祥：對，是一年以下，沒錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你知道這個條文什麼時候訂到現在嗎？這個條文從1934年訂定，已經90年沒有改變，原因你知道嗎？為什麼大家都不動？就是期待可能性不高，脫逃很合理啊！就人性來講真的是很合理啊。你去看全世界的罰則為什麼都訂這麼低，也不會說開什麼玩笑，你藐視國家公權力，所以要把刑責弄很重。不會啊！因為有時候本罪很輕啊。像今天這個，我是有點擔心，譬如刑法也有其他相似的概念，你說藏匿人犯，第一百六十四條是把人藏起來，刑期兩年以下，把人藏起來都只有兩年以下，那麼自己當被告，把自己藏起來，有時候被告自己都不可能去自證自己有罪，他就認為先藏起來，過一陣子出來再說，所以那個期待可能性更低啊！這兩個條文之間，你跟第一百六十四條藏匿人犯來做比較，這就怪了，所以你這是牽一髮而動全身，會不會？","我舉我們鄉下的例子來跟你做討論，一般賭博罪，賭博罪這是很輕的罪，對不對？或者我們兩個扭打、打架，檢察官搞不好……這本來是直接可以斥回的，但是看你們的態度不好，五千塊交保，我也看到這一種啊！一萬塊交保我也都看到啊！我們看了也知道只是稍微給一個威嚇，警惕一下。好啦！你像這種兩個人打架的、像這種這麼輕微的，這種幾乎都是告訴乃論之罪，哪怕你起訴了、到法院去了，這個和解完以後，馬上又判決不受理了，像這種案件，本罪到最後有可能是無罪的、有可能是不受理的、有可能是易科罰金的，可是就因為我要上班，現在台積電四處在蓋廠，我跟你在吵架、打架而已，結果卻要到法院那邊處理。結果這樣，變成我們這個條文這樣的設計會不會有輕重失衡？我針對這個地方來請教司法院。"],["朱法官嘉川：我個人非常佩服委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不敢當。"],["朱法官嘉川：剛剛次長也有提到，我也幫法務部講一下話，它沒有怠惰，因為這個已經開過11次的會議，包括有邀請學者，學者就處罰的必要性以及輕重失衡，一再提出，尤其是第一百六十一條的脫逃罪，在修法之前只有一年以下，已經居於國家的實力監控之下而逃亡，這時候判一年，反而是具保讓你處在一個自由的氛圍之下而不來開庭，這樣要判三年，嚴格來講確實有輕重失衡。所以法務部的對策是儘量在很矛盾之中，找到一個合理的均衡點，參考日本的立法例，把第一百六十一條的脫逃罪，提高刑度到三年以下，讓這個矛盾點比較不要那麼突出。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟次長還有跟法官以及各位列席的官員來做一個說明跟提醒，不要以為別的國家立了些什麼，我們就一定要抄，就同樣的，我們中華民國立法院立了些什麼，搞不好人家看到說臺灣有立，我們也來抄，他們不曉得我們是在什麼情況之下立下去的。我們有時候常常在民粹立法，我們要解決事情沒有錯，可是法律條文的設計，你們跟立法院不一樣，立法院是一群野獸，立法院是隨便講一講，人多數、喊通過，有民粹支持，一下就過去了，可是這個民粹……","我們也不一定講民粹，民意的方向搞不好一個禮拜就轉變了，你講幾個具體的案件，大家覺得：哎喲！怎麼當初我們會這樣想。到最後承擔責任都是誰？都是你們，不會是我們。人家會覺得你們這些人不是都專業的嗎？什麼法務部、什麼司法院，你們不是最專業的嗎？怎麼都沒有提醒呢？我在這個地方就提醒過很多次了，當年的條文到現在，90年沒有去動它，沒有動它合不合理？我倒認為也合理，除非你要把整部刑法或刑事訴訟法大修，如果沒有大修的話，你就會造成這種射程的範圍會傷及無辜。輕罪的啊！我剛舉的兩個案子就夠輕了吧！哪有什麼犯的本罪那麼輕，甚至那個本罪到最後判決是不受理的，或者纏訟了那麼久，到最後有一次就像你講的，你當作老百姓都吃飽閒閒，光接你的傳票就好了？刑法為什麼大家在講有謙抑性就在這個地方，不能去輕易發動就是這樣子嘛！有時候老百姓確實真的是要去上班、真的要去工作，管這刑法不刑法，遇到就有夠倒楣了，稍微去問一下會不會怎麼樣，來了，我也都說不會、放心啦，到時候賠償、和解，趕快去賺錢。我都這樣跟人家講，我都跟他們講趕快去賺錢，這個到最後跟法官講一下、跟檢察官講一下，說不好意思，那天因為心情比較差、脾氣比較暴躁跟衝動，所以吵架。很合理啊！如果這個案子在各位手上，你們也會考量打架而已，有沒有和解？有和解就好了。你們地檢署偵辦案件程序的時候，有時候你們更希望當事人趕快和解掉，甚至叫警察機關趕快把它和解掉。所以我的意思是，所有的案件，如果沒有去做區分，那個射程真的會傷及無辜啊！尤其是你沒收以後還有刑事責任，會不會有重複處罰的問題？你這個也都要好好的思考一下。剛剛聽了司法院的看法以後，是不是次長這邊再說明一下法務部的立場？"],["徐次長錫祥：的確委員剛才講的都是很重要的，不過在當時討論的過程中，也都有討論過，剛才講到沒入跟刑罰，目前來講，還是以刑事優先，如果相同有罰金跟沒入，那還可以折抵的存在，就跟公共危險、酒駕是一樣的情形，行政跟刑事是可以並存的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我的意思就是，這其實還要好好的去做思考，法界在討論東西都很慢，而且都有不同見解，學者專家出來又會不一樣了，法官跟檢察官系統看法又常常會有所不同，那都沒有不對，那個是站在各自立場或甚至於在人權的考量，或者你站在國家的角度，妨害國家法益，你要怎麼樣去給他加重，都可以表達尊重，但是你去看，比如剛才鍾佳濱委員提到法官宣判的時候，被告不需要到庭，對不對？而許多被告得知有罪判決確定以後，會趁著檢察官在執行刑罰的時候脫逃，是不是像這一些，我們去把它做一個類型化，重大案件被告的部分，要讓他強制到庭去聽，不過這又涉及到修法，你看這個工程會有多大。你說要防範這一些在判決當下，你就立刻馬上去做執行，這個有時候你也未必會做得到，但是以目前我們搭配刑事被告科技設備監控執行辦法裡面去提供對停止羈押的人執行科技的監控，或者日前我們在審查科偵法的一些工具，是不是在這個地方也可以去做搭配？我今天提出來，真的是希望要集思廣益，如果你們不表達意見，不要修完以後，到時候被拿出這一些去質疑，你怎麼去解釋？是不是這樣說，司長？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好不好？我是認為提出要修法的人，立法理由我們都看到了，社會上也都聽見了，只是他要提出修法的理由到底堅不堅強，這些個案你如果沒有去把它做類型化去區分，射程會變成如此，搞到最後會變天下大亂，而且罪責完全就會失衡掉，這個不是我們建立法律體系最主要的一個目的啊！我們也不能隨便做，我們也都知道民氣可用啊！民氣可用，法務部你們最喜歡這個，司法院倒未必又喜歡，判決理由很難寫，你知不知道？奇怪！這一條怎麼定這樣，到最後這個地方怎麼重得莫名其妙！本來是可以把它和解掉的，結果是多出一個比本刑還要重的罪刑出來，到最後大家會覺得很荒唐，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-37","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","羅智強","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1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對不對對我們草案有提高我說本來都一年以下對是一年以下沒錯你知道這個條文什麼時候訂到現在嗎這個條文從1934年這24年90年沒有去改變原因你知道嗎原因喔對啊為什麼大家都不動就期待可能性不高啦"},{"start":281.325,"end":296.754,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":311.218,"end":327.103,"text":"長栗人犯一百六十四條那個是把人藏起來兩年以下,把人藏起來都只有兩年以下,那自己當被告人把自己藏起來這個是被告有時候他自己都不可能去製證自己有罪啊,他就認為說我先藏起來啊,過一陣子出來再說啊,那個期待可能性更低啊,那你這個兩個條文之間你不覺得你跟那個長栗人犯來一百六十四條你去做比較的話,"},{"start":339.426,"end":358.574,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":365.592,"end":381.666,"text":"一萬塊交保,我也都看到啊。我們看了以後知道說只是稍微給你一個威嚇警惕一下。好啦,你像這種兩個人打架的,像這種這麼輕微的,這種幾乎都是告訴難論之罪。就哪怕你起訴了,你到法院去了,這個和解完以後,馬上又判決不受理了。"},{"start":389.411,"end":396.419,"text":"之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":411.613,"end":413.015,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具 «中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":423.251,"end":451.249,"text":"我個人非常佩服委員不敢當先前剛剛次長也有提到其實法務部我也幫他講一下話他沒有怠惰因為這個歷次已經開11次的會議那包括有邀請學者那學者就這個處罰的必要性還有這個輕重刺痕一再提出尤其是161條的脫逃罪在修法之前只有一年以下那已經據國家的實例監控之下而逃亡"},{"start":452.089,"end":475.22,"text":"這時候判一年,據保讓你處在一個自由的氛圍之下而不來開庭,這樣要判三年。嚴格來講確實有輕重失衡。所以法務部的對策是盡量在很矛盾之中找到一個合理的均衡點。參考日本的立法例,把161條的脫逃罪提高刑度到三年以下,讓這個矛盾點不要那麼突出。"},{"start":475.58,"end":495.977,"text":"我跟次長還有跟法官這邊各位列席的官員來做一個說明提醒不要以為說別的國家立了些什麼我們就一定要抄就同樣的我們中華民國立法院立了些什麼搞不好人家看到說台灣有立我們也來抄他們不曉得我們是在什麼情況之下立下去的"},{"start":497.503,"end":525.243,"text":"我們有時候常常在民粹在立法我們要解決事情沒有錯可是法律條文的設計會跟立法院不一樣立法院是一群野獸立法院你親在公共的人多數要話同軌有民粹支持一下就過去了可是這個民粹這個民我們也不一定講民粹民意的方向搞不好一個禮拜轉變你講幾個具體的案件大家覺得說哎呦阿太當初我們這樣想到最後承擔責任的都是誰都是你們不會是我們"},{"start":527.694,"end":529.256,"text":"當年的條文到現在你90年沒有去動它,沒有動它合不合理?我倒認為也合理喔。"},{"start":545.839,"end":565.549,"text":"除非你要把整部刑法或刑事訴訟你要把它大修啊你如果沒有大修的話你就會造成這種射程的範圍你會傷及到無辜啊輕罪的啊我剛舉的兩個案子就夠輕了吧哪有什麼我那個犯了本罪那麼輕甚至我那個本罪到最後判決是不受理的那或者說纏送了那麼久到最後有一次就像你講的你通常大家都老百姓都吃白鹽鹽都要接你的船票"},{"start":575.66,"end":579.542,"text":"這個刑法為什麼大家在講說有遷移性就在這個地方嗎?不能去輕易發動就是這樣子嗎?有時候老百姓確實啊我真的是要去上班啊我真的要去工作啊我告訴你這刑法不刑法肚子就有夠衰啊稍微去問一下說會不會怎麼樣來我也說不會啦放心啦這到時候這樣白白的會被禁去賺錢我都這樣說的"},{"start":599.753,"end":599.993,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具"},{"start":608.939,"end":628.266,"text":"三）立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第四百六十三條之一及第四百六十三條之一及第四百六十三條之一及第四百六十三條之一及第四百六十三條之一及第四百六十三條之一及第四百六十三條之一及第四百六十三條之一及第四百六十三條之一及第四百六十三條之一及第四百六十三"},{"start":636.969,"end":654.422,"text":"尤其是你沒收以後還有刑事責任會不會重複處罰的問題你這個也都要去好好的思考一下我要聽聽剛聽了司法院的看法以後是不是次長這邊來再說明一下法務部的立場的確委員剛才講的都是很重要的不過在當時考慮的討論的過程中也都有討論過那剛才講到末路跟那個刑法的話"},{"start":662.568,"end":670.969,"text":"三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六"},{"start":671.445,"end":685.23,"text":"三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六"},{"start":696.354,"end":710.383,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":726.999,"end":728.166,"text":"不過這又涉及到修法了"},{"start":728.905,"end":733.287,"text":"條文修正草案案案案件,而其中一人擬具刑法部分條文修正草案案件,而其中一人擬具刑法部分條文修正草案案件,而其中一人擬具刑法部分條文修正草案案件,而其中一人擬具刑法部分條文修正草案案件,"},{"start":758.18,"end":774.048,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一及第八"},{"start":776.021,"end":795.28,"text":"是不是這樣說 市長是好不好 我是認為提出要修法的人立法理由我們都看到了社會上也都聽見了那 那個只是說要提出修法的一個他的理由到底堅不堅強我們再把這些個案你如果沒有去把它做類型化去做一個區分的話"},{"start":795.52,"end":811.999,"text":"之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":816.223,"end":828.809,"text":"之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之"}]}},{"id":"154696","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154696","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db901535d67247e04f539b61d768c41420ec114453cb9c203b017656227f15220735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:02:12 - 10:05:25","影片長度":"00:03:13","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：依據修正後「立法院職權行使法部分條文」相關規定：討論成立本會「有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組」及「運作要點草案」等相關事宜。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T10:02:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T10:05:25+08:00","duration":193,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":0.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.65534375,"end":2.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.09721875,"end":49.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.99784375,"end":81.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.18659375,"end":84.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.14846875,"end":145.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.35409375,"end":190.90409375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.693,"end":1.458,"text":"那我們就截止登記謝謝"},{"start":8.134,"end":28.288,"text":"主席我就想要問民進黨到底在怕什麼到底在怕什麼為什麼不願意把真相公開剛才邱映穎委員說其實檢調可以查所有的案子啊我現在想要質疑的是民進黨委員現在已經是可以指揮檢調辦案是不是所以他可以指使檢調說你全部案子要查呀為什麼我們可以查我們不自己查還要交給檢調 你看四字585號裡面就說"},{"start":38.654,"end":55.962,"text":"國會應有調查權不是要調閱資料是要自行調查檢調查了一年多了一年多了不公開而且也沒有進度那委員為什麼不相信自己呢為什麼不相信說我們可以一起合作民進黨國民黨民眾黨"},{"start":58.243,"end":81.356,"text":"我們三黨的委員一起合作在經濟委員會成立調查小組把真相公布給民眾讓大家可以知道這對民進黨也沒有任何的不利啊只要是沒有不法對任何的黨都沒有任何的不利而且不只是超思絕對不只是超思要查的有這麼多包括說"},{"start":84.292,"end":90.374,"text":"這個農委會補貼中央續產會買蛋的運送冷鏈相關的補助竟然多補了而且呢理由是未依採購法所以要追討回368萬的補助款這個這些錢如果不是這一段時間立法院立法委員一直在委員會質詢的話我們連我們失去了"},{"start":114.284,"end":117.266,"text":"多補了368萬都不知道,你們相信這是唯一一件嗎?本席認為肯定不只這一件,一定有非常多需要查清楚的真相。"},{"start":134.318,"end":136.1,"text":"所以過去發生的類似的問題我們是不是應該積極把它還原把真相還給人民本席在這裡認為"},{"start":146.437,"end":153.723,"text":"成立調查小組是有其必要性成立調查小組是有其必要性剛才已經講了總統令公布的這麼清楚假設就像你們講的是違法違憲的話為什麼賴總統要公布賴總統是帶頭違憲嗎本期在這裡強烈的質疑所以"},{"start":167.814,"end":184.042,"text":"請民進黨的委員我們是不是一起共同的來合作一起三黨共同合作把真相調查出來這樣子你們也可以洗清這種可能也許這是你們的冤屈啊大家一直說這個是民進黨所主導的我們把真相公諸於世的話對民進黨也是有好處的為什麼一再的阻撓呢"}]}},{"id":"154695","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154695","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db93917d216ea04fd58398a8850000c6975c114453cb9c203b0f60cbfe02f6e7d345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:01:17 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了我們從5點多在這邊也沒有冷氣喔冷氣7點半中央空調自己開的"},{"start":78.103,"end":86.421,"text":"到七點多一般議事人員今天也很好嘛我們七點半進來議事人員也都來了嘛請問議事人員從七點"},{"start":89.703,"end":108.693,"text":"辦到下午一點半這一段時間又跑去哪裡了?又坐誰的車來到紅樓201了?剛剛巧會委員那一張公告又是誰張貼的?有沒有蓋內政委員會的章?當那一張貼上去我要去201開會的時候門被鎖起來了"},{"start":113.002,"end":132.599,"text":"當我們進去簽到的時候裡面已經有五個國民黨的委員已經簽到了這是什麼黑箱為什麼要在內政委員會發聲都要一一的確認清楚這個在議事錄裡面都沒有接下來在進到這個內政委員會之後"},{"start":136.136,"end":158.197,"text":"連劉士芳部長剛才接受媒體訪問的時候也沒有收到通知說聽說你是看電視才趕快來2011的太離譜了吧我們的內政委員會要這樣開嗎為的是什麼為的是要請所有的要連署罷免的所有的台灣人民"},{"start":159.445,"end":159.665,"text":"好,非常謝謝博弈委員,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154685","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154685","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db94204511ad51eaaec398a8850000c6975c114453cb9c203b0eaa168ddc20ba7d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:10:28 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09:59:55","影片長度":"00:10:24","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T09:49:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T09:59:55+08:00","duration":624,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（9時49分）謝謝主席，請張廖次長以及鄭署長。"],["主席：好，次長跟署長。"],["陳委員秀寳：首先先請教鄭署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：關於瓊斯盃女籃出賽費這個爭議，目前體育署你們的態度是什麼？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實我在第一時間就不只打電話跟籃協要求要更正這個亂象；第二個，我也發了一個聲明，希望他們能夠注意性平這件事情，因為所有的國家隊同一個盃賽不應該有男女的差別。"],["陳委員秀寳：對，這就是我們今天要討論的，昨天籃協還說要用激勵獎金的方式，發給每位女籃球員2,000元，等於說他在補足這個差額，一樣是5,000塊，但是署長，這樣的說法相較於一樣出賽費是5,000塊，這個很難嗎？一樣平等的、齊頭式的，就是出賽費是5,000，跟你本來是3,000塊，你給他2,000塊的激勵獎金……"],["鄭署長世忠：我覺得沒有差啦，而且我也跟籃協很明白的表示，實在是沒有必要這樣子，而且也不應該。"],["陳委員秀寳：當然你說的沒有差是說反正就是一樣是給5,000啦，其實出賽費的這個差異，籃協他們宣稱說對女籃是沒有歧視，他們覺得是一樣的，他們一開始討論的時候，其實並沒有納入女籃，後來男籃他們說要主動降價跟女籃齊頭，其實這樣的說法我覺得是非常的荒腔走板。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：他們主動降價其實對於整個男女平等、同工同酬這樣的一個意識、這樣的平等意識其實是無助的，反而讓人家覺得，那你是施恩嗎？我這邊是3,000塊，你本來是5,000塊，你願意降低了，是你來屈就我嗎？這其實是一種很傷害的感覺喔！"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：體育署，我這邊真的要提醒你們，一直以來在我們體育界就存在這種男女不平等的待遇，其實一直都有，從這一次這個事件，體育署你們剛開始也只是喊話，如果你們沒有實質的作為，你們是袖手旁觀的話，這樣的情況會一直發生。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實我在私底下施力真的很多啦！說實在的，當然我還是要先說明，前面4次球員工會跟籃協在談的時候，的確前面4次先著重在男子隊這部分，還沒談到女子隊，雙方談判就先暫停了，他們籃協這一塊的確有一個既有的這種不正確的觀念，所以才有這樣的情況發生，但是我們在第一時間就已經要求他一定要改正這件事情。"],["陳委員秀寳：我也相信署長，我相信署裡面、我相信教育部是願意用各種方式來宣導男女平等。不同的性別，其實他們在體育上的付出、他們的表現，我們都應該一致給予同樣的期待，但如果已經成為國家隊了，籃協還是一樣用商業價值來看待國手，其實這樣的狀況、這樣的思維，在體育署的看法，你們有怎樣的方式可以去改善它？你們有怎樣的方式可以去提醒它應該要改善？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，除了發文之外，第二個其實就是教育啦！因為這是根本觀念上的一個改善，這是長期以來我們的確一直要去跟協會講，男女生不管是出場費也好，或者是整個比賽準備的待遇，甚至他的選訓、選拔，還有比賽的項目，其實目前世界上的潮流就是希望男女生這部分是能夠一致的。"],["陳委員秀寳：署長，您在剛上任的時候曾經說過您會找單項協會一一談話，以瞭解各單項協會遇到的困難，或是他們的想法。"],["鄭署長世忠：有。"],["陳委員秀寳：希望可以跟單項協會取得改革與進步的共識，我想知道你現在所談的進度跟成果有什麼可以分享？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我在這一年來其實有跟很多的協會在談，包括解決他們目前在選訓方面遇到的困難，還有他們出國比賽遇到的困難，所以我實施了很多的措施，比方說一些單據上，或是我們的職業選手的黃金計畫，我們的選手部分出國的待遇……"],["陳委員秀寳：署長，請將現在已經有跟單項協會對談的這些項目、內容，提供一份報告給我，讓我知道你們到底現在談了什麼、有什麼方式是大家可以一起來努力的。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：瓊斯盃女子賽事還在進行中，可是中華藍跟中華白分別遭到日本隊拉大比分吞敗，引起一片反思的聲浪，也談及女籃是停滯的，以及是不是他們的打法跟訓練方式需要改善？體育署鄭署長，您覺得我們現在應該提供什麼協助，或是我們可以有什麼資源來提供給女籃？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我當然沒辦法去批評我們的教練，但是我也希望他們在賽事、聯賽的部分，第一個是先開放外籍球員進來，能夠增加我們的強度；第二個，其實籃協只要提出來，當然我們會要求他們，他們提出來所有的選訓，針對國家隊的部分，甚至基層的培訓潛優，我們一直都是很支持，但是我想可能還沒有找到對的方法，這部分我們持續再來鼓勵他們。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實我這邊真的覺得，經過這麼多次的事件，我真的看不到體育署針對單項協會的改革。從足協拖欠薪資到這次出賽費這個事情，體育署如果一直只是站在單項協會的角度來處理，你們站在維護他們的角度來處理，對於我們這些運動員該有的福利、該有的一些尊嚴，你們都沒有去維護的話，其實不只是傷害到運動員，對民眾來講，他們也會感到很失望！我們一直期待是不是可以將體育署升格為運動部，所以我們希望有更多的資源來照顧這些運動員，我們也希望跟把臺灣打造為對運動員友善的一個環境，加上巴黎奧運在即，全國民眾的目光都會專心投注在體育署如何對待我們的國手以及他們的福利，所以這邊我希望體育署你們要加把勁喔！","接下來我要請教署長，112年度的動滋券從去年6月1號開始領取，在今年6月30號抵用截止，根據體育署的統計，可以領券的人數大概是155萬人，但是領券人數只有88萬人，差不多只有五成多一點，實際使用的人數是55萬人，使用率只有35.5%，次長跟署長覺得對112年度的動滋券執行成效，你們滿意嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，當然不滿意！不過這部分是個根本的問題，目前我們的學子在高中階段，說實在真的是非常著重在學業課業方面，在體育部分的參與，目前的確都比較僅限於在學校裡面的體育課，因此校園外的部分，也是我們未來必須要去著力的地方，這樣才有辦法有效提升。所以，青春動滋券的確反映了我們這部分的困境。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以，署長您本身也知道這個還有很大的進步空間。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：今年度的動滋券成效也不是很好，相較於文化部的文化禮金已經在1月底開始發放，到3月的時候領取率就已經將近有七成了，比文化禮金大概早20天發放的動滋券，到3月底的領取率只有兩成，所以說比文化禮金真的低了很多很多，這是到3月的統計喔！我們在下半年度有沒有針對動滋券的推廣研議怎樣策進的方案？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實我們在掙扎一件事情，我們當時的立場是鼓勵去做運動、看比賽，而文化券可以去買書，我們的東西能不能去買運動用品？說實在我們只要開放這一項，保證秒殺！但是我們一直很掙扎這件事情！"],["陳委員秀寳：但是我們的用意並不在於讓他們去購買，而是要讓他們去參與。"],["鄭署長世忠：是，這部分跟文化券就有一個很大的差異在這個地方，所以這部分我們還是要去思考啦！"],["陳委員秀寳：請你們再研議看看有怎樣的方式去鼓勵。"],["鄭署長世忠：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來我要請教我們次長，教育部在112學年度下學期在42所高中試辦身心調適假，一個學期之後決定在8月1號上路，我想請教次長，在試辦階段有沒有遇到什麼問題？"],["張廖次長萬堅：遇到什麼問題？都還好吧！就是都還好，所以才上路。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，那我們8月1號要上路的請假規定呢？有沒有以試辦階段各方意見來進行調整？還是照原來的？還是有調整？"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有什麼調整，就是因為試辦的狀況還不錯，然後反應都很好。"],["陳委員秀寳：教育部也說將視高中的辦理情形，會邀集學者專家來討論是不是要把身心調適假往下到國中、國小。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：目前你們有沒有研議什麼時候要開始來做這些討論跟相關的規劃？"],["張廖次長萬堅：現在就是高中的部分我們先上路，上路大概一學期之後或一年之後，我們會看……"],["陳委員秀寳：一個學期或者一個學年這樣子？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，之後……"],["陳委員秀寳：有青年團體建議，在學生請身心調適假之後，學校可以進行相關的配套來落實學生輔導事務的推動，例如，有大學在學生請了身心調適假之後，會透過系統來寄送關懷信件，信裡面會提供諮詢專線及紓壓的方式，也會提供學校諮詢預約的網站，高中的部分，教育部有沒有規劃類似的配套措施？我們要及早地提供需要的協助給孩子們，讓他們可以得到相對應的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，委員，你這個建議非常好，目前高中的部分只要請身心調適假的話，輔導室就會有學生的關心名單，會進行關心、瞭解……"],["陳委員秀寳：做後續的追蹤？"],["張廖次長萬堅：會。"],["陳委員秀寳：也讓他們有管道、有資源……"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然……"],["陳委員秀寳：有訊息知道去哪裡求助。"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然更細緻的一個作法，我們會繼續來精進，譬如是不是要設計卡片啦，或者有一些撫慰的方式，或者有一些鼓勵的方式，我想會繼續看實施狀況裡面成效比較好的部分，我們來實施。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝次長。就是希望我們的孩子能夠及早得到他們所需要的協助。"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以紓解。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們來接住這些孩子，以上，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員關心，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審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案。"},{"start":460.638,"end":462.278,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條文草案案。」案。"},{"start":481.343,"end":495.352,"text":"但是我們的用意並不在於說讓他們去購買是讓他們去參與所以這部分跟文化券有一個很大的差異在這個地方所以這部分我們還是要去做思考啦這個也請你們再研議看有什麼樣的方式去補充的那接下來我要請教我們次長教育部在112學年度下學期有在42所的高中試辦的身心調試假那一個學期之後呢決定在8月1號來上路那我想請教次長在試辦階段有沒有遇到什麼問題"},{"start":510.526,"end":510.766,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":526.343,"end":527.044,"text":"條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":542.737,"end":551.3,"text":"現在就是高中的部分我們先上路啦上路大概一學期之後或一年之後我們會看一學期或一個學年這樣子那有青年團體建議在學生請身心調適假之後呢學校可以進行相關的配套來落實學生輔導事務的推動例如有大學呢他在學生請了身心調適假之後呢他會透過系統來寄送關懷信件那信裡面會提供諮詢專線及書鴨的方式"},{"start":570.126,"end":571.587,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":594.542,"end":599.065,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"}]}},{"id":"154682","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154682","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db97127527f273ca27d39b61d768c41420ec114453cb9c203b05d607953504530f25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:53:03 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秋瑩 腦筋清楚一點你連這個案情都搞不清楚很清楚 你剛開始罵人 腦袋不清楚你連最基本的時間都搞不清楚 真相都弄不清楚"},{"start":119.631,"end":131.905,"text":"現在是我的時間所以現在我們公開呼籲請大家弄清楚請大家弄清楚剛剛邱委員講的只有那時候去安寧申告去北檢的那些狀況而且北檢到現在"},{"start":133.729,"end":134.19,"text":"拜託一下民進黨的立委"},{"start":152.389,"end":168.851,"text":"回到人民這邊好不好你們現在一直站在立法委那一站在行政院那邊把我們當成一個小小的立法局一直在閹割自己的前線啊你們閹割自己當新的小偷不打緊你現在偷我們下水我們成立一個調查小組回應民意有什麼不好讓人民知道真相啊"},{"start":170.373,"end":194.409,"text":"怎麼會違法違憲呢?在釋字585包括整個憲法這個規定裡面本來各自就是不一樣的我們的立法權裡面有我們立法委員該做的你說真的我們調查小組調查完之後真正有問題需要糾正要彈劾的送到監察院去對不對?真正有刑責的還是要送到地檢署去啊"},{"start":195.441,"end":212.969,"text":"有刑者你要不要起訴後來法院會判刑後面也是要走啊那如果民進黨這樣把立法院關起來算了請你們回應民意民意呼聲那麼高進口雞蛋從去年到全年那麼多問題浪費多少人民的民脂民膏裡面黑幕叢叢沒有關山勾結嗎"},{"start":214.76,"end":216.883,"text":"請回到人民這邊 給人民真相 幫人民納稅錢省下來 把真相追清楚 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154681","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154681","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db927cd626663bd0c2639b61d768c41420ebeb11409451ce229e3b48d9307feac045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:48:39 - 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邱議瑩第二輪發言感謝剛剛國民黨的委員對於這個立法委員職權行使法的這個法條修正的過程內容再進一步的闡述那我想要再進一步的詢問跟請教"},{"start":25.625,"end":43.662,"text":"剛剛大家一直在談這個法是由賴清德總統公告你們剛剛念的職權行使法只念了一部分我們一直在質疑的第46條之二你們連看都不敢看連讀都不敢讀連念都不敢念那剛剛鄭正前委員也特別提到"},{"start":44.904,"end":60.704,"text":"這個成立叫做有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組嘛對不對所以你們不是只有查超私我必須告訴大家111年進口雞蛋的廠商兩家一家叫亮彩一家叫超私112年有4家"},{"start":63.047,"end":63.868,"text":"全部都查就會落到您剛剛所說的"},{"start":82.429,"end":110.509,"text":"這個在調查中的檢調在調查中的案件立法院是不是應該要停止調查立法院就不能來成立這樣的一個調查小組剛剛張家俊委員一開始說不是查超私最後又講說超私的案子難道大家不想知道嗎其實我們也很想知道但是檢調在調查監察院也在調查如果按照你們剛剛一直念的"},{"start":111.89,"end":127.903,"text":"總統公告的立法委員職權行使法立法委員：立法院是不能成立不能行使這樣的調查權但是在第46條之二的第三項剛剛鄭振琴委員也很清楚講到最後一句"},{"start":129.004,"end":151.881,"text":"調查委員會得停止調查正常來講應該是要寫應停止調查但是這個由國民黨民眾黨通過的法條寫得停止調查也就是剛剛鄭正前委員所說的你們可以自行決定你們要不要停止調查因為他是得不是應那"},{"start":152.882,"end":172.458,"text":"照您剛剛的解釋這不是擴權這不是違憲那什麼才叫擴權什麼才叫違憲明明都在法院的調查裡頭在檢調的調查裡頭了而由立法委員自己去解釋說我可以我得停止調查"},{"start":173.419,"end":191.112,"text":"不是我應停止調查很顯然這個法條在立的過程裡頭就已經漏洞百出這是根據剛剛各位委員所說的第三點我要提到鄭天才委員臺大法律系畢業你說關鍵資料你們不調閱請教一下"},{"start":196.554,"end":218.934,"text":"請教一下檢調在調查的資料是不是關鍵資料檢調已經把所有的資料通通調到檢調單位裡頭去了然後你們在這裡成立一個調查委員會那你說關鍵資料你們不會去調閱你們會去避過那請問你成立這個調查委員會要幹嘛你這個調查小組你要查什麼"},{"start":220.609,"end":241.86,"text":"所以喔 你們不要再講了啦 你們越講漏洞越多啊自己被打臉打得越腫 我剛剛已經說過了張祺凱你不要叫我們起義來歸 這沒有什麼起義來歸 反而是你要起義來歸你的頭腦要清楚 你當了一輩子的媒體人怎麼會在最後這半年歪成這樣 壞成這樣呢 腦袋壞成這樣呢"},{"start":245.595,"end":245.976,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154680","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154680","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db92b0fcd319ba25cebe6fdecbb7cc8faa7beb11409451ce22992bee04615099ad75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:36:45 - 09:49:52","影片長度":"00:13:07","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T09:36:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T09:49:52+08:00","duration":787,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":37,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-37"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":224,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時37分）謝謝主席。主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請徐次長、司法院朱法官以及移民署的林組長。"],["主席：請次長、朱法官及林組長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好。先就教一個過去曾經在司法及法制委員會跟檢察署所發生的爭議。","昨天大家看到憲法訴訟法的憲法法庭開庭，有關憲法訴訟法中何謂機關爭議案件，規定在憲法訴訟法第六十五條第一項及釋字585號解釋是要有具體案件。就你的認知，所謂機關爭議案件的聲請要件是什麼？以憲法訴訟法第六十五條第一項，就一般常識性認知來說，你可以回答嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：法官比較適合吧？"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，就請朱法官。"],["朱法官嘉川：報告委員，這不是本人的權責範圍……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我了解，就是從我們一般的法律常識來看，我也是從常識面來思考的。"],["朱法官嘉川：這不是我們刑事廳的權責範圍。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，但就這個條文來講，其聲請要件很容易理解吧？不便回答？那我們看第2頁。釋字729號立法院調閱偵查卷證案，立法院曾經要求調閱319槍擊案卷證。當時的最高檢察署認為有職權上的爭議，這部分次長可以答了吧？以你對這個案件的瞭解，是行政院跟立法院在權限的爭議，是不是？那時候本院本委員會依據當時的立法院職權行使法要求調閱文件，但行政院、法務部及最高檢察署認為不適合，這是不是屬於偵查職權與立法院調閱文件的權限爭議？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，偵查權限行使時必定會跟行政機關調閱……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以是不是比較像剛剛講的憲法訴訟法第六十五條的適用對象？當時是不是走這個部分？往下看。左邊這個部分，當行政院跟立法院有權限爭議時，我們聲請司法院憲法法庭來做判決，是不是？所以就產生了釋字729號解釋文，當時還是用司法院大法官審理案件法（大審法）來處理，而大審法的條次大概就跟現在的憲法訴訟法第六十五條相近，這點你瞭解吧？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯？很好。現在我們看到昨天的憲法法庭，行政院，是行政院，所以法務部要仔細聽。行政院提出抽象法規範可能牴觸憲法，故聲請釋憲，作為國家最高機關，你們認為以立法院職權行使法來說，是該聲請機關爭議的判決，還是要聲請憲法法庭對法規範憲法的審查？是哪一種？你認為？"],["徐次長錫祥：應該是法規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法規範？對！行政院提出法規範本身可能牴觸憲法，聲請法律違憲，當然是適用憲訴法第四十七條，是不是這樣子？我們來看一下。憲法訴訟法第四十七條第一項，國家最高機關，因本身或下級機關行使職權，就所適用之法規範，認為有牴觸憲法者得聲請憲法法庭為宣告違憲之判決，所以是法律有沒有違憲的聲請，是不是這樣？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：至於剛剛講的釋字729號，它講的是憲法訴訟法第六十五條第一項，最高機關因行使職權，與其他國家最高機關發生憲法上權限之爭議，經爭議之機關協商未果，得聲請憲法法庭為機關爭議之判決。這裡指的是合憲的法律要如何適用的問題，是不是這樣？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。我們昨天做的是暫時處分的效力，根據憲法訴訟法第十三條第一項，暫時處分有對法律凍結，等到判決確定後再行實施。在你的認知裡面，於法律凍結期間，立法院職權行使法，比如說人事同意權是否應依舊法執行？"],["徐次長錫祥：這要看憲法法庭怎麼判決。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果暫停適用，那麼人事同意權，比如說接下來審查的可能就按照舊法？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：舊法是不是現況？新法適用前的現況就是舊法？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對？所以適用舊法大概是對現況變動最小的原則，損害也可能是最小的？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝，我們來看今天的主題。刑事訴訟中被告可能失聯的時間，我希望用「失聯」，不要說逃逸，也不要說脫逃。在起訴前（就是偵查中），以及起訴後（審判中），或判決後（執行）的階段，請問目前分別針對這三個階段的統計來說，過去你們統計有多少人失聯？偵查中的有沒有統計過？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們目前只針對偵查跟執行，大概三萬多人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：三萬多人？好，審判中的呢？誰知道？朱法官？"],["朱法官嘉川：我們有統計過，這幾年目前還在通緝，而還沒有撤緝的案件大概六千件出頭。"],["鍾委員佳濱：指的就是起訴後到判決確定前，對不對？"],["朱法官嘉川：法院審理中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法院審理中的有多少？"],["朱法官嘉川：六千出頭。"],["鍾委員佳濱：六千出頭件？而剛剛講的是三萬多人？"],["徐次長錫祥：因為我們有案子還沒起訴。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，我知道起訴前跟判決後執行階段，所以我們看得很清楚，這三個階段都有可能是本修正法案的涵攝範圍。我們往下看。有關棄保潛逃罪責的處罰，基本上根據我們看到的刑法修正條文第一百六十一條之一第一項，交保、責付、限制住居或限制出境、出海，經傳喚到庭而未到就發布通緝，目前所處罰的對象就是發布通緝的這些人，是不是這樣子？你們的意見當中？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們在草案裡不會以發布通緝作為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：唯一的要件？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看有哪些考量。您說得很好，我看了你們意見，覺得蠻不錯的！首先第一個，最根本的問題是防止嫌犯逃亡國外，通常在發布通緝或限制出境時，假設被告可能還在國內，但是也可能已經偷渡出去了，是不是這樣？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有可能當發現他已經不在國內時，可不可以直接註銷護照？因為他在國外啊！護照不註銷，但人已經不在國內，他到處亂跑，有沒有考慮過這個？移民署，移民署的看法呢？你們覺得護照註銷後會不會有助於讓逃亡的嫌犯或被告，在國外的行動受到拘束？"],["林組長貽俊：報告委員，註銷護照是外交部的權責。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們認為有沒有幫助？因為今天沒有找外交部來。"],["林組長貽俊：現在一般來講，只要有通知我們限制出境的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：人就都偷渡出去了，你們也管不到他了，但他護照還在身上。好，我直接問次長，如果你覺得在發布通緝或限制出境、責付、交保時就扣押他的護照，有沒有這樣的作法？有沒有扣押護照的作法？"],["徐次長錫祥：有，依刑訴第一百十六條之二。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以扣護照嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是現在在限制出境的同時都會扣他的護照？有沒有每一件都扣他的護照？"],["徐次長錫祥：一般都會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果你們每個案件具保的時候都扣護照，後面就沒有註銷的問題了，他護照根本不在身上，偷渡之後，在國外也很難行動，是不是這樣？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們覺得未來是不是這個扣護照的動作要同時具備？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個由法官跟檢察官來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：由法官跟檢察官來認定。請問朱法官，檢察官或法官在什麼情況下認為具保了，但是不用扣護照？"],["朱法官嘉川：依照刑事訴訟法第一百十六條之二，這是羈押替代處分，如果認為有必要的話，法院可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：實務上有沒有說具保之後沒有扣護照的？比例多少？"],["朱法官嘉川：個案是由法院來審酌。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有統計？"],["朱法官嘉川：目前我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得你們要統計一下，因為法官覺得不用扣護照，結果他已經偷渡出境，在國外拿著臺灣護照趴趴走，有沒有這樣的情況？有嘛，這個請你們注意。那一般來講，判決確定到發監執行要多久？次長，因為入監執行是你們負責，判決之後就不是法院的事了，這段時間如何避免他逃亡？你們有沒有什麼作法？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們會根據案件的特殊性，像有時候最高法院通知我們，我們立刻就會監控。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我們看你們怎麼監控，電子腳鐐防止被告脫逃，有沒有？"],["徐次長錫祥：不會在這個時候，我們是通知執行，這是羈押的替代。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是羈押的替代，但是有沒有幫助於避免他在判決確定到發監執行之間的脫逃？法務部跟司法院可不可以利用電子腳鐐加強防止被告脫逃，在他判決確定後，到執行之間？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，如果在審理中，法官……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是審理中，我是說判決確定，還沒判決確定，他不跑啊，判決確定到發監執行之間，他跑掉啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：不是，只要在審理中他有裝設電子監控設備，會平轉給我們的平台。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那有沒有那種在審理中沒有裝設的？因為不曉得會判有罪嘛，但判決有罪之後，發現這個很重大，會不會在判決之後追加這個處分？"],["徐次長錫祥：好像沒有這樣子……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那有沒有人因為本來在審理期間沒有被羈押，也沒有做這個替代處分，但是判決之後，他發現要被抓去關了，趕快跑，有沒有這樣的案例？有沒有統計過？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有統計？你們要統計一下。就是現在大家人云亦云、繪聲繪影說一大堆人就是因為我們沒有防止他脫逃，趴趴走，這些在實務上你們都有手段可以防制的，或者要入法，或者你們現在行政上就要去處理，應該要先做一個統計，讓我們知道這個手段有沒有必要，同不同意？"],["徐次長錫祥：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後我們看結論。還有人不知道自己被通緝的，我覺得你們這裡已經講清楚了，因為如果對方只是因為搬家，送達他不知道，嫌疑人就因此被發布通緝，他沒有積極逃亡的意圖，你們通常就不會用來處罰，這是你們的意見？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我覺得很好，所以如果是這樣子，發布通緝的人，未必就要用脫逃罪來處罰，是不是這樣？好，最後一個問題，就是無罪判決但因未到庭而被判刑，有人被判無罪，因為他不認為自己有罪嘛，所以他未到庭，結果被判刑，你們會不會要處刑？因為無罪的結果未到庭而被判刑，有這樣的情況嗎？判決無罪的結果因為未到庭但是被判刑，會這樣嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：剛才我在報告的時候就特別說，因為他的不到庭如果妨害到證據的蒐集等等，他會享受到這種利益，我們要防止這個發生。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我就要讓你講出這一段，本席支持這樣的方向，因為他最後被宣判無罪的結果，有可能是他拖延、拒不到庭，產生無法傳喚、無法審理的結果，在這種情況下，他的脫逃就還是要處刑。"],["徐次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那麼還有幾位那我就想先就教一個過去曾經在我們司法法制委員會跟檢察署發生一個爭議昨天大家看到了憲法訴訟法的憲法法庭的開庭那麼關於憲法訴訟法何謂機關正義案件規定在我們憲法訴訟法的第65條第一項那麼還有包括4至585號的解釋說是要有具體案件那你們就你的認知所謂的機關正義案件的申請要件是什麼"},{"start":71.445,"end":93.457,"text":"在憲法書法案第65條第一項就一般常識人認知﹖你可以回答嗎?這是由﹖就主法官來來。我了解就是我們一般的法律常識我也是從這個常識面來思考的。我了解但是您就這個條文來講他的申請要件很容易理解吧?"},{"start":95.191,"end":114.828,"text":"不便回答,那我們看進行第二頁,4至729號立法院我們司法委員會曾經要求要調閱319槍擊案當時跟最高檢察署有職權上的爭議,這個部分次長你可以答了吧你對這個案件的了解他是有在爭議,是行政院跟立法院在權限的爭議是不是?"},{"start":116.823,"end":135.177,"text":"那時候本委員會本院本委員會要求調閱文件根據當時的立法院執行司法那你們行政院法務部最高檢察署認為呢不適合所以這是不是屬於屬於偵查職權與立法院調閱文件的權限爭議"},{"start":141.476,"end":166.315,"text":"對這個偵查的權限行使的時候那必定會跟行政機關所以是不是比較像是剛剛講的憲法訴訟法第65條的適用對象當時是不是走這個部分來我往下看我們這邊左邊這個部分當行政院跟立法院有權限爭議的時候我們申請司法院憲法法庭來做判決是不是那這裡面呢"},{"start":167.577,"end":182.888,"text":"就產生了729號的解釋文他當時還是用司法院大法官審理案件法大審法來處理那大概呢大審法的那個條次啊大概就跟我們的現在的憲法訴訟法的65條相近這你瞭解吧沒有錯沒有錯嗎很好那現在呢我們看到了現在昨天審法法庭呢他行政院"},{"start":191.946,"end":198.311,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":220.439,"end":246.761,"text":"應該是法規範法規範對所以若認為行政院法規範本身可能抵觸憲法申請法律違憲那當然是適用我們憲法憲訴法第47條的部分是不是這樣子我們來看一下憲法訴訟法第47條第一項國家最高機關因本身或下級機關行使之權就所適用的法規範認為這個法規範有抵觸憲法者申請憲法法庭為宣告違憲的判決是法律有沒有違憲的申請是不是這樣是"},{"start":248.479,"end":268.826,"text":"那至於我們剛剛講的四至七二九號呢他講的是憲法輸送法第六十五條第一項最高機關應行使職權與其他國家最高機關發生憲法上權限之爭議經爭議之機關協商未果得申請憲法法庭為機關爭議之判決這裡指的是合憲的法律要如何適用的問題是不是這樣"},{"start":271.096,"end":290.774,"text":"是好謝謝那我們講看那最後呢就憲法訴訟法呢我們昨天是做暫時處分的效力根據這第43條憲法的第43條第一項暫時處分的有對法律凍結那等到判決確定後呢再實施那請問在你認知裡面法律凍結期間立法院之間行使法比如說人事同意權是否應依舊法執行"},{"start":296.719,"end":311.419,"text":"這個要看憲法法庭怎麼判決如果要說暫停試用那當然我們的人事同意權比如說接下來審查的可能就按照舊法那麼舊法是不是現況?是不是新法試用前的現況就是舊法?"},{"start":313.221,"end":340.708,"text":"對。對嘛。所以適用舊法大概是對現況變動最小的原則嘛。也可能損害是最小嘛。是。好謝謝。好來我們現在看今天的主題齁。來。刑事訴訟中被告可能失聯的時間欸。我希望失聯啦。不要說逃逸啦。也不要說脫逃啦齁。請問在起訴前就偵查中。以及呢起訴後審判中。或者在判決後執行的階段。請問根據統計目前這個三個階段分別過去你們的統計有多少人失聯?你這個偵查中的有沒有統計過?"},{"start":344.93,"end":364.893,"text":"我們目前只有偵查跟執行大概三萬多人三萬多人好那審判中的呢誰知道來我們法官有統計過這幾年目前還目前通緝而還沒有徹緝的案件大概六千件出頭六六"},{"start":365.99,"end":384.979,"text":"指的就是起訴後到判決確定前對不對?法院審理中的有多少?六千出頭見那剛剛講的是三萬多人嘛因為我們有案子還沒起訴對我知道起訴前嘛跟判決執行階段嘛好所以呢我們看得很清楚在這三個階段都有可能是本修正法案的含色範圍我們往下看"},{"start":385.885,"end":402.959,"text":"所以棄保潛逃的罪責的處罰基本上根據我們看到的修正條文的第161條之一的第一項在交保折付限制出入居或限制出境出海經傳喚到庭而未到就發布通緝目前所處罰的對象就是發布通緝的這些人是不是這樣子你們的意見當中"},{"start":407.39,"end":428.948,"text":"我們在草案裡面不會以發佈通緝作為唯一的要件。我們現在看有哪一些考量。您說得很好,我看了你們的意見覺得蠻不錯的。首先第一個,我們最根本的問題是防止嫌犯逃亡國外。通常在發佈通緝或者限制出境的時候,這個時候我們假設被告可能還在"},{"start":429.77,"end":447.126,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三"},{"start":454.042,"end":472.368,"text":"你們覺得這個護照注銷後有沒有有助於讓這個逃亡的嫌犯或被告在國外的行動上受到拘束?報告人注銷護照是外交部的權責。那你們認為有沒有幫助?因為今天沒有找外交部啊。現在一般來講說他只要有通知我們限制出境的"},{"start":472.748,"end":501.208,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三"},{"start":502.789,"end":527.459,"text":"之一及第二百六十二條之一及第三百六十一條之一及四十一條之一及五十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及五十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及六十一條之一及"},{"start":528.977,"end":554.16,"text":"依照刑事說法一百一十六條之二這個是替代羈押處羈押替代處分是如果認為有必要的話法院可以秘密實務上有沒有說具保之後沒有扣護照的比例多少這個是個案由法院來審卓你們有沒有統計目前我覺得你們要統計一下因為法官覺得不用扣護照結果他已經偷渡出境拿在國外拿著台灣的護照還到把把照有沒有這樣的情況"},{"start":555.782,"end":580.157,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百"},{"start":583.22,"end":598.009,"text":"之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第八百六十一條之一及第八百六十一及第八百六十一"},{"start":605.216,"end":631.903,"text":"法務部跟司法院可不可以利用電子繳料加強防治被告脫逃,在他判決確定後到執行之間?對,如果在審理中法官不是審理中我說判決確定他沒判決確定他不跑啊,判決確定到法院執行他跑掉啦不是他他那個他只要在審理中他有裝設電子的監控設備會平轉給我們的那個平安那有沒有那種在審理中沒有裝設的,因為不曉得會判有罪嘛但判決有罪之後呢發現這個很重大"},{"start":633.166,"end":653.528,"text":"之一及第一百六十三條之一及第二百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三條之一及第三百六十三"},{"start":654.764,"end":678.779,"text":"現在大家對於人云亦雨會聲會影說一大堆人就是因為我們沒有房子要脫逃趴趴照這些在實務上你們都有手段可以防治的或者要入法或者你們現在行政上就要去處理應該要先做一個統計讓我們知道說這個手段有沒有必要同不同意同意好現在我們最後我們看結論了問題二對不起往前看還有人不知道自己被通緝的我覺得你們這裡已經講清楚了"},{"start":679.158,"end":699.532,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百"},{"start":707.773,"end":719.036,"text":"之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一"},{"start":722.171,"end":725.092,"text":"三（罪無罪結果為未到庭但被判刑。」"},{"start":739.775,"end":765.828,"text":"因為他不因為他後來最後宣判無罪的結果有可能是他延遲拖延拒不到庭產生無法傳喚無法審理的結果那這種情況下他的一個脫逃就還是要處刑最後的結果我們做結論這個棄保潛逃需要再研議希望你們再用科學工具來防逃以上剛剛所提的要求你們做的統計數字請盡速的什麼時候可以交給本席你們統計讓我們知道未來修法的依據"},{"start":771.305,"end":771.706,"text":"條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"154679","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154679","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db965691288b7423ffb160fff40bb8bca63beb11409451ce229939d2a991c27a3a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:37:29 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09:49:22","影片長度":"00:11:53","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T09:37:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T09:49:22+08:00","duration":713,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":231,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時37分）謝謝主席，有請教育部張廖次長跟體育署鄭署長。"],["主席：請次長、署長，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：次長跟署長好，首先我要來關心一下今天大家都看到的一個消息，今年9月開學之後即將實施國小附設幼兒園學童每週飲用兩次牛奶的計畫，這個計畫其實有很多背景，希望這個計畫為期4年，預計編列至少7億元，再加上其他的配套，很可能接下來初估要44億元。本席在此對這個計畫表達支持，因為它既可以幫助我們本土的酪業，同時又可以為學童補充營養，但是有地方政府反映，有一些配套措施亟需教育部提供協助，本項政策預計要在9月推行，首先學校反映可能有冷鏈斷鏈造成食安的問題，因為鮮奶運輸的溫度在7℃，團膳運送很可能動輒50到60℃起跳；另外，可能是由委外廠商來運送。想請教幾個問題，第一個，請教次長，針對校方反映鮮乳配送的問題，全臺灣有兩千六百多所國小跟附設幼兒園的需求，我們如何來滿足？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想配送是教育部最關心的，因為我們喝的是鮮奶，不是保久乳，所以它存放的條件跟環境相對比較嚴格，如果在配送的過程裡面產生一些變數的話，事實上鮮奶很容易壞掉。"],["葛委員如鈞：對，這是問題，我是說解決方案，現在9月來得及嗎？而且還有偏鄉的學生占總供餐人數20%，這個鮮乳配送問題到底有沒有在討論啊？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們現在已經……"],["葛委員如鈞：您剛剛自己提到冷藏設備……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我想是這樣子啦，這個政策主要是農業部這邊當時要協助酪農來解決，就是剛才委員所講的問題，所以由農業部那邊經過行政院的……"],["葛委員如鈞：這是一個善意嘛！對吧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，所以目前這個政策是由行政院的食安辦來做跨部會的協調……"],["葛委員如鈞：如果現在教育部這邊出問題，是他們負責還是教育部負責？"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然都要負責，政府一體。"],["葛委員如鈞：對嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為我們現在負責的就是去瞭解現在要配送的數量，所以7月底以前會將這個兩千六百多所……"],["葛委員如鈞：9月來得及嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：來不來得及還必須要協調，我們努力啦……"],["葛委員如鈞：還有您剛剛提到各自負責的問題，目前市售鮮乳最低行情每瓶大概18.5塊，我們算了一下，農業部每瓶大概只補助14塊……"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：可能會有經費不足的問題，教育部打算要向農業部再爭取經費，還是要另外編列預算來補足價差，有沒有討論過？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為是在今年下半年，所以比較急迫，目前行政院裁示由農業部支付下半年度，我們目前的共識是希望9月能夠上路，供應的次數不會少，會到年底……"],["葛委員如鈞：拜託次長幫忙關注一下，到時候我們用了過度便宜的價格，一來傷害到酪農，很可能還傷害到學童的食安……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個我們其實內部的討論都有反映"],["葛委員如鈞：市場的價格一定要能夠match，好嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：有反映了。"],["葛委員如鈞：最後一個問題，關於牛奶的部分，我們也非常關注學童的自主性，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們是民主社會，希望養成學生的自主，其實有很多人可能有一些自己的狀況，學童可能有身體因素沒有辦法喝牛奶，或者有真的不太想喝牛奶的小朋友，教育部有提供其他的選項嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：有、有……"],["葛委員如鈞：不然的話，會不會讓社會大眾看起來好像要強迫喝牛奶的感覺……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員非常瞭解，因為有些孩子可能有一些過敏不喝牛奶，針對不喝的孩子，我們目前提供的方案就是給他們喝豆奶，加鈣的豆奶、豆漿。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以有可能會有這個選擇？還是一定會有？"],["張廖次長萬堅：有，有這個選項。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，會有這個選項，那我們就都記得了，因為這真的是要有彈性。","另外，有健康的臺灣、健康的學童，鮮乳的配送也一定要是安全的，才能夠有穩健的體育發展，所以我接下來想要談一下體育界熱門的話題，也就是巴黎奧運於7月26日開幕，祝福我們60名選手，他們要出發前往法國，請問一下次長，目前代表團的食衣住行、後勤、中繼站等等是不是都已經安排妥當，能不能簡要說明？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們這次是全力以赴，在好幾次的會議裡面都有針對巴黎奧運討論，譬如那邊的天氣比較熱，但是巴黎奧運這次的特色是希望能夠符合SDGs永續環境的條件，他們沒有設冷氣……"],["葛委員如鈞：次長，我打斷你一下，現在7月11號，兩個禮拜後他們可能就要在那邊開始了……"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：到底準備事項做完了沒？中繼站設好了沒？"],["張廖次長萬堅：中繼站沒有問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：完成了嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：7月12號以前……"],["葛委員如鈞：20號還是12號？後面有人打pass……"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為那邊的場地基本上都已經安排好了，只是我們第一批人員的進駐……"],["葛委員如鈞：一定要關注，因為他們準備了這麼長的時間就是為了這個比賽，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有問題。這次的所有的人力配備，包括我們過去被詬病的……"],["葛委員如鈞：我下一題要問商務艙的問題……"],["張廖次長萬堅：物理治療、商務艙，全部都沒有問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：這次所有60位選手、教練是什麼艙等？"],["張廖次長萬堅：全部都是商務艙。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，希望保障選手應有的權利，讓他們有最好的發揮。","另外，有一項國際賽事我也非常關注，在沙烏地阿拉伯舉辦的2024年電競世界盃，我們都非常關注到底會不會有選手去了之後又沒有錢、沒水喝等等，我們詢問了體育署，結果體育署說這一場賽事沒有透過中華民國電子競技協會報名參加，因此不清楚報名隊伍比賽等等情況，一問三不知，體育署難道就是這樣關心我們的電競選手嗎？我剛剛提到的是在今年4月初，他們5天賽程中只有300塊美金，不到臺幣一萬塊的錢，一天只敢吃一頓飯，每天喝的水還要拜託飯店給他們，最後抱走了冠軍、抱百萬美元的獎金，電競協會第一時間就發文祝賀，過程當中完全沒有補助他們，那我們又問，這次電競世界盃有沒有幫助他？結果一問三不知，這種消極的態度如果不改的話，我覺得這可能對臺灣的電競發展不太公平，所以我先想要確認，接下來電競到底是不是我們要重視的事情？因為皮球踢來踢去，我們現在畫了一個冠軍的圖，絕對不是嘛！對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員，這個冠軍是我們的署長，我請他來就細節、您質疑的部分做詳細的說明，好不好？"],["葛委員如鈞：對啊，電競不要又踢給協會啊！"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，第一個我先釐清，這個賽事是商業賽事，是個職業賽事，所以為什麼當初我們同仁一開始在處理這件案子的時候沒有立即處理，原因就在這個地方，一般我們補助是在IOC底下的、奧會體系底下的賽事，我們才會……"],["葛委員如鈞：你不一定要補助啊！有沒有人去參賽，我們不用掌握嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分就是因為他們職業選手會自己去比賽，這個我們的確不會去掌握各個運動賽事……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我們得到答復，你們說透過協會報名的才是國際賽事，才是代表國家的國手，你們才會來關注。"],["鄭署長世忠：原則上是這樣……"],["葛委員如鈞：到底哪些電競賽事是你們有在關注的國際賽事？你們要不要先列個名單出來？可不可以列出來給我？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分我們會請協會這邊協助一起列出來。"],["葛委員如鈞：好不好？不然到時候我們看到這些又蹭來蹭去，我相信這不是你們的意思啦！還有一個問題，就是除了關注他們之外，在這個過程當中，到底我們有沒有一些電競選手的補助標準？我4月3號質詢的時候就有向您表示，就是關於這個補助的規定，其實我們應該要來思考，像電競運動一樣也應該要能夠被補助，不管是身體的電競還是雙手的電競，國際其實範圍是非常廣的，3個月的時間過去，請問體育署的補助標準目前研議進度如何？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實我們當時就有回答，基本上，電競選手是我們亞運的項目、亞運的種類，所以在我們亞、奧運的選手，基本上是一致公平的對待。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以現在就是還是沒有要補助電競選手嘛！"],["鄭署長世忠：有，如果今天是亞運種類的話，我們就會補助他，我們就會來培訓他，這部分本來就是跟其他運動種類都是一致公平的對待。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以只要不在亞、奧運底下的，就算是其他國家舉辦的電競，我們也都不管，是不是？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前我們的能力所及是到這邊，但是未來我們再來思考啦！這部分真的要請委員諒解，因為太多運動種類了。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想這個……沒關係，我想今天所有的社會都會有公評啦！電競的比賽，臺灣的選手不斷的拔得頭籌、得冠軍，然後我們現在體育署的反應是，我們就等亞、奧運，我們不做任何積極的這些討論。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，比方賽車，之前羅廷瑋委員在關心……"],["葛委員如鈞：賽車我們有國手啊！"],["鄭署長世忠：我們就是用……比方我們有媒合平臺，我們來幫忙號召社會大眾一起來做贊助，這件事情我們目前是積極在做啦！"],["葛委員如鈞：所以就交給社會，踢皮球踢給社會？我這張圖我就不換了。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，有太多的運動賽事了啦！所以我們目前的確是以奧、亞運為主，還有世界運動會。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒關係，我們幫你們再踢一顆球啦，就是說黃牛的事情，不好意思，跟主席再借一點時間。請教次長，黃牛這個問題全臺灣都非常關注，尤其運動賽事，我先恭喜，最近臺灣的運動賽事越來越熱門，非常非常的活躍，請教次長，您認為打擊黃牛最有效的手段到底是什麼？"],["張廖次長萬堅：你問我，我實在……"],["葛委員如鈞：我已經洩題了、我已經洩題了，我幫你把這個答案的球踢到另外一個部會去。"],["張廖次長萬堅：你說實名制嗎？"],["葛委員如鈞：您覺得實名制是不是最有效的作法？您同意嗎？您同意文化部王次長的說法嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：實名制當然是很有效的方法，但是不是每一種文化活動或運動賽事都適合，也有很多因素啦！"],["葛委員如鈞：但是我看其實你們的答復確實是這樣，你們說，這個不是適合每一種事件，但是你們針對實名制的回復，其實你們又說是鼓勵推動實名制，你們還有在研擬補助實施計畫的草案啊！又跑出一個多重宇宙來？我們已經各個部會都在那邊多重宇宙了，現在體育署也要開始流行了嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，因為很多賽事是民間在主辦，那民間它要不要採用？坦白講，有時候很難強制它，所以我們會用補助的一些……"],["葛委員如鈞：這是你們自己的報告，現在的草案什麼時候可以實施？研議的進度如何？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們現在草案已經送到那個基金管理委員會，通過之後就可以實施。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我想接下來黃牛會因為體育賽事越來越熱門，一定會蠢蠢欲動，可能會破壞我們購票的公平性，甚至影響我們運動產業的發展，補助計畫既然已經研議半年，而且你們剛剛也說已經快要上路了，是不是可以請教育部來督促體育署一個月內儘速提出實名制的補助計畫？相關的計畫是不是能夠提前送到我們辦公室，我們一起來討論一下？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們來努力好不好？謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來我們請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員林德\n福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案；四、審查委員陳培瑜等21\n人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案；五、審查\n台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.30409375,"end":12.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.125968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.11284375,"end":87.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.43471875,"end":110.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.46534375,"end":109.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.12346875,"end":124.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.08471875000001,"end":116.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.59846875000001,"end":122.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.64034375000001,"end":165.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.29221875000002,"end":138.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.49784375000002,"end":147.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.79659375,"end":150.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.26909375,"end":150.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.69096875,"end":150.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.72471875000002,"end":150.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.92221875,"end":156.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.25471875000002,"end":162.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.46971875,"end":162.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.59159375000002,"end":186.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.71909375,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.73596875,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.03284375,"end":204.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.11721875,"end":204.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.77534375000002,"end":204.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.97784375,"end":245.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.44909375,"end":216.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.43596875,"end":217.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.67159375000003,"end":221.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.05909375000002,"end":226.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.40034375000002,"end":228.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.56721875000002,"end":241.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.87909375,"end":243.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.11096875,"end":255.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.65034375000002,"end":248.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.18096875,"end":292.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.71659375,"end":257.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.53659375,"end":274.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.55909375000005,"end":310.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.44721875000005,"end":307.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.15159375,"end":308.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.85596875000005,"end":319.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.96534375000005,"end":312.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.26471875000004,"end":313.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.14221875000004,"end":314.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.03659375,"end":315.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.16659375,"end":320.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.61784375,"end":322.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.73159375,"end":323.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.25471875,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.03096875,"end":326.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.02221875000004,"end":326.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.83221875000004,"end":327.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.59159375,"end":335.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.67159375,"end":330.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.96221875000003,"end":332.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.58659375,"end":333.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.83096875,"end":339.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«運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具《運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具《運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":173.297,"end":174.117,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":187.636,"end":203.816,"text":"我想今年下半年因為比較急迫所以目前行政院才是由農業部這邊來支付下半年度我們目前的共識就是希望九月能夠上路然後供應的次數不會少到月底"},{"start":204.056,"end":205.016,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":220.703,"end":239.612,"text":"我想這個學童的自主性我們也非常關注我們民主社會我們希望養成學生的自主但是其實有很多人可能有一些他自己的狀況學童可能有身體因素沒有辦法喝牛奶或者是真的不太想喝牛奶的小朋友教育部有要提供其他的選項嗎"},{"start":240.612,"end":241.393,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":258.53,"end":258.81,"text":"三條之二條之一條"},{"start":274.773,"end":291.939,"text":"所以我想接下來想要來談一下體育界這個熱門的話題也就是我們的巴黎奧運7月26號要開幕我們有60名選手祝福他們要這個出發前往法國請問一下次長目前代表團的這個十一住行後勤中繼站等等是不是都已經安排妥當能不能解藥的說明"},{"start":292.619,"end":293.46,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":321.633,"end":322.133,"text":"這次所有的60位選手、教練"},{"start":349.217,"end":349.818,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":378.957,"end":405.032,"text":"不清楚報名隊伍比賽等等的情況一問三不知提署難道就是這樣關心我們的電競選手嗎?今年四月初我剛剛提到的就是五天賽程他只有300塊美金台幣不到一萬塊的錢一天只敢吃一頓飯然後每天喝的水還要跟飯店去拜託他、給他最後報走了這個冠軍報百萬美元的獎金電競協會第一時間就發文祝賀"},{"start":407.173,"end":407.634,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之"},{"start":424.349,"end":439.072,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人�"},{"start":447.934,"end":466.101,"text":"報告委員第一個我先釐清這間賽事這個賽事它是商業賽事是個職業賽事所以為什麼當初我們同仁一開始在處理這件案子的時候沒有立即處理原因就在這個地方一般我們補助是在IOC底下的這個奧會體系底下的你不一定要補助啊有沒有人去參賽我們不用掌握嗎"},{"start":466.861,"end":485.126,"text":"這部分就是因為他們職業選手會自己去比賽這個我們的確不會去掌握各個運動賽事我們得到答覆啦你們就說透過協會報名的才是國際賽事才是代表國家的國手你們才會來關注原則上到底哪些電競賽事是你們有在關注的國際賽事啊你們要不要先列個名單出來可不可以列出來給我"},{"start":485.646,"end":486.226,"text":"第二十四條之一條文草案案。"},{"start":508.821,"end":533.711,"text":"其實我們應該要來思考像電競運動一樣也應該要能夠被補助不管你是身體的電競還是雙手的電競這個國際其實都範圍是非常廣的三個月時間過去請問體育署的補助標準目前研議的進度如何?報告委員其實我們當時就有回答就是說基本上電競選手是我們亞運的項目亞運的種類所以在我們亞奧運的選手我們基本上是一致公平的對待的所以現在就是還是沒有要補助"},{"start":534.471,"end":547.084,"text":"三條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":559.557,"end":587.034,"text":"沒有關係我想我們今天所有的社會都會有公平啦電競的比賽台灣的選手不斷的拔得頭籌得冠軍然後我們現在體育署的反應是說我們就等亞奧運我們不做任何積極的這些討論其實比方說像賽車之前有羅廷偉委員在報賽車我們有國手啊對我們就是用比方說我們有媒合平台我們來幫忙一起號召社會大眾一起來做贊助這件事情我們目前是積極在做啦"},{"start":588.095,"end":615.279,"text":"所以就交給社會踢皮球踢給社會我這張圖我就不換了所以說有太多的運動賽事了啦所以我們目前的確是以澳亞運為主還有世界運動會沒關係我們幫你們再踢一顆球啦就是說黃牛的事情不好意思跟主席再借一點時間請教市長啦黃牛的這個問題全台灣都非常關注尤其運動賽事我先恭喜最近台灣運動賽事越來越熱門非常非常的活躍那請教市長您認為打擊黃牛最有效的手段到底是什麼"},{"start":619.011,"end":621.832,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":644.324,"end":664.31,"text":"你們的答覆確實是這樣,你們說這個不是適合每一種事件,但是其實你們針對實名制的回覆呢,其實你們又說是鼓勵推動實名制啊,你們還有在研擬補助實施計畫的草案啊,又跑出一個多重宇宙來,我們已經各個部會都在那邊多重宇宙了,我們現在體育署也要開始流行了嗎?"},{"start":664.71,"end":676.918,"text":"二條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":680.714,"end":699.39,"text":"我們現在草案已經送到那個基金管理委員會通過之後就可以實施好我想接下來這個黃流這個會因為體育賽事越來越熱門一定會蠢蠢欲動可能會破壞我們購票的公平性甚至影響我們運動產業的發展補助計畫既然已經延誼半年而且你們剛剛也說已經快要上路了"},{"start":699.81,"end":712.479,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"}]}},{"id":"154678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db921c4968d79087c7039b61d768c41420ebeb11409451ce229d58348d2a66612b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:45:27 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09:36:37","影片長度":"00:11:48","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T09:24:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T09:36:37+08:00","duration":708,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":37,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-37"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時24分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好。臺灣社會對於有權有勢的人竟然可以去關說司法，真的是深惡痛絕啊！一般的小老百姓，不管是走進地檢署還是走進法院，都是誠惶誠恐，委任律師當他們的代理人或辯護人來主張他們訴訟上面的權益，但是卻有一群明明在這個社會上面已經掌握了相當高權力的人，包括我們的法官，法官去關說司法；也包括了我們位高權重的政治人物，去關說檢察官，不要對他所涉入的刑事案件來提起上訴；更離譜的，還有幹過法務部部長的邱太三，去找桃園地檢署檢察長彭坤業，幫富商逃稅5億的案子進行關說，明明沒認罪還要關說，叫檢察長去施壓桃園地檢署的檢察官，讓他進行認罪協商。這些過去實際上面的亂象，讓我們行政院院長卓榮泰前幾天在院會備詢的時候，說臺灣是民主國家，不會有壓案的事情，我不知道他是脫離現實，還是準備要說謊！這明明全部都是具體發生過的事情，針對這些案子最後的結果是怎麼樣，次長你知道嗎？有任何人受到任何的刑事處罰嗎？請教次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有吧？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣子的結果，我相信沒有人可以接受，這就是為什麼我們今天要來這邊審不法關說罪、妨害司法公正罪，不可以讓這些違法濫權的人繼續逍遙法外，享受一般人所沒有的特權。","第二個問題，在權貴犯罪的脈絡裡，我們常常發現，我們權貴犯罪的司法審判程序通常會拖很久，有拖到5年、10年、15年的，好不容易確定了，人卻跑了，讓我們的刑事刑罰權沒有辦法獲得落實，這也是為什麼我們今天要處理棄保潛逃罪的問題。其實這兩件事在2017年司改國是會議的時候都做出了決議，到現在研議了7年，次長，對於這樣的速度，你能夠接受嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我想法律的修改，有時候也不是完全看時效，因為學說上的甲說、乙說，學者很多人有不同的見解，像我們最近的討論也是一樣，光一個法律上的用語，可能會有不同的解釋，所以才會開了11次的協商會議，我想在制定的過程中，的確大家很用心，但為要求慎重，所以才會這樣，不過這個法案現在文字上大概都已完成，陳核後再送到司法院，然後再會銜，很快的應該就會送到大院來。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們希望啦！針對這些明顯的法律漏洞，幫權貴犯罪開的後門，其實討論得越久，拖得越久，這個後門就存在得越久，只要不完成立法，我就繼續幹，我就繼續跑；我就繼續幹，我就繼續去關說司法；沒人可以拿我怎麼樣，我就繼續棄保潛逃，也不會有任何法律效果。","今天剛好要處理棄保潛逃的問題，有一件事情要請教一下次長，檢察官向法院聲請羈押的時候，有時候符合羈押的要件，但法院認為沒有必要性，所以會用具保的方式來替代，問題是我們在羈押的事由裡面除了有逃亡之虞以外，還有什麼呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：重罪、串證。"],["黃委員國昌：串證嘛！滅證嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好。如果今天他沒有跑，我們用1,200萬給他交保，但是他跑去串證，他跑去滅證，違反一開始的時候法院沒有給他羈押，只是給他具保，但叫他不可以去接觸證人；如果有去接觸證人的話，這個時候的法律效果是什麼？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個會再裁定羈押。"],["黃委員國昌：會再聲請羈押？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我們現在的具保，保的到底是什麼？只有保他會到庭嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：就是以防他逃匿以及將來執行不到案，就會沒入保證金。"],["黃委員國昌：所以只有保他到不到庭？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：如果他違反法院的命令，那個具保的錢會沒收嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：不會，會再聲請執行羈押。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我們把法律效果說清楚，今天不管具保多少錢，具保了以後，就只是擔保他會到庭，沒有辦法擔保他會不會滅證、他會不會串供，如果他違反法院的命令，我們目前的效果是向法院再聲請羈押，如果未來我們在修法上面，把它進一步擴及到除了向法院聲請羈押以外，他違反之前交保的時候法院所為的命令，一併的把他具保的金額沒入，法務部贊不贊成？"],["徐次長錫祥：刑訴法不是我們主管的法律。"],["黃委員國昌：我知道啦！但臺灣現在刑事司法的荒謬就在這裡，刑法跟刑訴、實體法跟訴訟法像是雙胞胎一樣，一體兩面，結果一個法務部管、一個司法院管，這兩者之間必須要有一個很好的統合機制。我今天不會請你代表司法院發言，所以從法務部的立場，我剛剛那樣子就立法方向提出的建議，法務部贊不贊成？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們帶回去研議好了。"],["黃委員國昌：請好好研議。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我覺得這些事情，像怎麼樣確保國家的刑事司法權能夠落實，這是一個非常嚴肅而重要的問題。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：下一個我要追的事情是88會館的調查報告，我上次去高檢署的時候，高檢署已經承認了，說一開始調查報告的內容是不實的，這88會館裡面聚集了非常多的權貴犯罪，過去這兩年我們看了非常非常的多，結果一開始連高檢署做出來的行政調查報告，內容都是虛偽不實，然後我在5月15號的時候，那個時候黃謀信次長跟我承諾說，高檢署會修正報告，而且會儘速公布，現在快兩個月了，東西在哪裡？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，本部的確在113年4月17號有函請臺高檢再釐清，據報確實有88會館人員出入，將提給懲戒法院來審酌，所以是提過去了。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！給懲戒法院是一回事，那個是被彈劾所以提給懲戒法院，現在我的問題是，你們高檢署的行政調查報告避重就輕，我追了半天，你們答應說高檢署會儘速公布修正的報告，可是我等到今天都還沒看到啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：的確當時是根據相關人員陳述所做的認定，並沒有調查不實……"],["黃委員國昌：就被騙了嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：後來再追查的結果，是有88會館人員出入，但是不是有女陪侍的那一種……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你們修正的報告什麼時候要公布？跳票了啊！我是給你們兩個月的時間！"],["徐次長錫祥：我們會後再送給大院。"],["黃委員國昌：速度快一點，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：因為這個牽涉到我們對於檢察機關的信任，連高檢署做出來的行政調查報告都「離離落落」，這要怎麼跟人民做交代？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：最後一件事情，不好意思，最後再給我30秒。我希望能夠幫監所的同仁喊出他們的心聲，深夜危勞勤務津貼支給表排除監所管理員，法務部認同嗎？他們的工作很辛苦、很危險，在監所裡面看管那些受刑人。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我們絕對贊同他們的工作的確有危險性，而且很辛苦，所以這一部分我們一定會帶回去研議。"],["黃委員國昌：不要研議！法務部要有立場，要支持他們，爭取把他們納入，可以嗎？這麼多監所管理員大家在關心的一件事情是什麼？你們的公文寫的是你們在研議，現在大家關心的是，這些在各個監所裡值勤，讓受刑人能夠好好服完應有刑期的監所管理員，法務部有為他們站出來爭取嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：對於改善他們的工作環境，法務部一直都有在努力。但有時候可能會牽扯到部會或費用問題，不過我們還是會極力爭取。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望法務部作為這些監所管理員的大家長，就該幫他們爭取正當合法的權益，這絕對是正當合法的權益！要認真一點！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：不要讓他們繼續失望，這樣好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。下一位我們請鍾佳濱委員發言。另外同時宣告，今天有委員提出臨時提案，依據往例在上午11點的時候處理，屆時如有委員在詢答，我們就等該委員詢答完畢之後馬上進行臨時提案的處理，不好意思。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-37","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","羅智強","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等27\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.32534375,"end":8.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.282843750000001,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.602843750000002,"end":13.345343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.800968750000003,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.011593750000003,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.74096875,"end":22.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.356593750000002,"end":24.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.870968750000003,"end":30.06846875},{"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案件,並擬具具保了以後,我只是擔保他會倒庭,我沒有辦法去擔保他會不會滅政,他會不會竄購,那如果他違反法院的命令,我們目前的效果是向法院再申請羈押,那如果說未來我們在修法上面,把他進一步擴及到除了向法院申請羈押以外,他違反之前交保的時候法院所為的命令,一併的把他具保的金額沒入"},{"start":420.874,"end":438.402,"text":"法務部在不贊成?這個不是我們這是刑訴不是我們主管的我知道啦但台灣現在刑事司法荒謬就在這裡刑法跟刑訴實體法跟訴訟法像是雙胞胎一樣一體兩面嘛"},{"start":439.842,"end":459.095,"text":"結果你們一個法務部管一個司法院管這兩者之間必須要有一個很好的統合的機制啦我今天不會請你代表司法院發言從法務部的立場我剛剛那樣子啊立法上面方向的建議啊 贊不贊成"},{"start":462.386,"end":484.609,"text":"我們待會去研議好了好好研議啦因為我覺得這些事情怎麼樣確保國家的刑事司法權能夠落實這是一個非常嚴肅而重要的問題謝謝下一個我要追的事情是八八會館的調查報告我上次去高檢署的時候高檢署已經承認了"},{"start":485.86,"end":507.985,"text":"一開始調查報告內容是不實的八八會館裡面聚集了非常多的權貴犯罪過去這兩年我們看了非常非常的多了結果我們一開始連高檢署做出來的行政調查報告內容都虛偽不實然後我在5月15號的時候"},{"start":510.014,"end":528.379,"text":"那個時候次長跟我承諾黃謀信次長跟我承諾說高檢署會修正報告而且會儘速公佈現在快兩個月了東西在哪裡報告委員本部的確在113年4月17號有含請台高檢再釐清據報確實有88會館人員出入將提給懲戒法院來審訟"},{"start":538.753,"end":560.553,"text":"提過去了還提過去了不是啊給懲戒法院是一回事啦是那個是被彈劾的所以給懲戒法院嘛是現在我的問題是你們高檢署的行政調查報告避重就輕嘛我追了半天啊你們答應說高檢署會儘速公佈修正的報告我等到今天沒看到啊"},{"start":562.921,"end":586.937,"text":"的確當時是根據相關人員所說所做的認定並沒有調查不實那後來再追查的結果是有88會館人員出入但是不是有女陪室的那一種沒有關係你們修正的報告什麼時候要公布跳票啦我給你們兩個月的時間我們會後再送給大院"},{"start":587.779,"end":613.48,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百"},{"start":617.605,"end":645.967,"text":"他們的工作很辛苦很危險欸在監所裡面去看管那一些受刑人。報告委員我們絕對贊同就是他們的確是有危險性而且很辛苦那這一部分我們一定會帶回去研議。不要研議啊!法務部要有立場啊!要支持他們啊!爭取要把他納入啊!可以嗎?這麼多監所管理員大家在關心的一件事情是什麼?"},{"start":648.134,"end":670.916,"text":"你們的公文是你們在研議嗎?那現在大家關心的是法務部有幫這一些在各個監所裡面幫我們在讓這個受刑人能夠好好的服完他應該有的刑期這一些的監所管理員你們法務部有站出來爭取嗎?"},{"start":674.266,"end":697.696,"text":"對於改善他們的工作環境我們法務部一直有在努力那有時候是有很會牽扯到部會或者是費用的問題不過我們還是會極力爭取我希望法務部作為這些監所管理員的大家長該幫他們爭取正當合法的權益這個絕對是正當合法的權益"},{"start":700.967,"end":701.348,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"}]}},{"id":"154675","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154675","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9e80ec3e2faf568ec39b61d768c41420ebeb11409451ce229519f11711756444d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"09:39:23 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16.789,"end":32.703,"text":"謝謝主席。請所有的立法委員：包括民進黨的立法委員：跟人民站在一起。人民要真相。問問民進黨的立委不要一直只是在護衛行政部門,把立法院職權閹割了。"},{"start":35.182,"end":56.335,"text":"把自己當行政院的立法局變成行政院的打手人民要真相需要成立有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組其實民進黨今天在會議上講的上星期在交通委員會叫司法的聯席會議都講過一輪經過辯論"},{"start":61.141,"end":79.232,"text":"後來也成立啦 民進黨後來沒有再抗議這個 民進黨只有抗議什麼不要聯席 不要聯席 不要交通委員會 不要交通委員會跟司法委員會聯席所以今天我們把它單純化 今天的小組 是由經濟委員會"},{"start":84.416,"end":108.696,"text":"單獨成立,沒有像進電視的弊案調查小組是兩個委員會的聯席沒關係,請尊重我的講話等一下你第二輪可以繼續講這案當中的,剛剛家俊有講了,操司只是其中的一部分立法院當然有職責啊,人民要真相啊,整個進口蛋為古年的"},{"start":109.497,"end":128.602,"text":"巴西蛋一直到前年日本蛋不是只有超市喔這進口蛋第一個有沒有讓費人民的納稅錢第一個有沒有弊案重重有沒有關山勾結人民到現在很多疑問阿光是本席辦公室整理出來最少20天阿包括前年去日本買雞蛋一顆"},{"start":133.871,"end":137.995,"text":"請民進黨的立法委員面對現實,給人民真相,為啥不查呢?這樣對得起人民嗎?"},{"start":158.288,"end":167.506,"text":"我記得今天最重要的是我們收到人民的戶頭第一個把人民的納稅錢要勘緊第二個要有真相人民的態度已經是那麼清楚了"},{"start":170.183,"end":170.203,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154673","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154673","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db93f5546690fc6c6d8160fff40bb8bca63beb11409451ce22948e605c7b2b947165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:27:37 - 09:37:16","影片長度":"00:09:39","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T09:27:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T09:37:16+08:00","duration":579,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":158,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時27分）謝謝主席，我們請張廖次長跟鄭署長。"],["主席：請次長跟署長備質詢，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：召委好。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝，次長跟署長好。我們今天排這樣一個運動產業發展條例，大家都希望能夠健全我們運動員生態的發展，避免假球再一次的發生。承續剛剛孟楷委員所提到的，目前為止，我們的法規只是針對運彩有開盤的比賽，我們才來進行加重的罰則嘛，其實還有很多沒有開盤的，像我們剛剛說目前在談合併的P聯盟跟T1聯盟都屬於這個狀況，甚至中華職棒部分。但是我想署長過去也說要深刻的一個檢討，可是當你們體育署的人員到我辦公室來，針對我所提出的第七條之一，你們認為由體育署來公告運彩沒有投注的職業跟業餘項目，有點「空白授權」的味道，甚至說出這好像會有違憲的疑慮。次長，這個要是真通過的話，你們是不是要聲請釋憲啊？有這麼嚴重嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個是大家討論的過程裡面有意見，我也跟我們的同仁討論過，不會有涉及到違憲的部分。"],["柯委員志恩：本來就是，而且你們剛剛說這是空白授權，那我要請問，你們目前運彩條例的第三條，你們的運動彩券定義是指「以各種運動競技為標的」，那我請你定義一下，所謂的運動競技是什麼？如果運動競技是你們可以這樣來……就可以通過你們運彩條例，那我今天所提出來的，當然也沒有所謂的空白授權的問題，不是嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為你看它第三條講「以各種運動競技為標的」，那第二十一條處罰又寫「妨害投注標的」，所以是指運彩公司開的我們才罰，現在當然運彩公司沒有開的很多運動賽事也非常精彩，譬如剛才提到HBL……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是啊，所以我才責請你們體育署，用你們公部門的力量來幫我們條列，比這個運彩來說的話，應該更具有說服力，所以這絕對不是空白授權，等等我們在逐條的時候會討論到。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["柯委員志恩：我今天比較關注的是因為我們的奧運選手馬上就要出去了，可是目前為止，大家都陷入了禁藥疑雲、禁藥的檢測。你看看我們目前唯一獲得資格的選手王冠閎，錯過藥檢，已經是第3度沒有受檢了，可能會有被禁賽的一個危機，署長，為什麼會發生這樣的一個狀況？而且根據WADA的規範，你只要12個月內有3次行蹤不實（包括填報不實、錯失藥檢），就會被停權1至2年耶！，我們這些選手，為什麼我們會允許這種事情發生？好不容易有一個可以奪牌的選手，竟然因為錯失藥檢就發生這樣的狀況。"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為它的藥檢是主動到球員的休息室去找他，可能在聯絡上沒有聯絡好……"],["柯委員志恩：那我們再看一下，目前來說……"],["張廖次長萬堅：後來其實我們主動幫他申訴啦，所以這個案件基本上他沒有問題，可以去比賽。"],["柯委員志恩：次長，問題是目前為止，有這樣例子的人，我們先看一下國訓中心，你只是建立這樣一個LINE群組，我們現在唯一國內在做的這個禁藥防制基金會，不好意思，一張海報而已啦！體育署就是選手出了事，你就找專家、律師來提供諮詢。除了我剛剛提到的王冠閎，我們往下看，夯不啷噹30個，好不好？次長，有30個，其中有5個已經3次被列為失蹤，這都是觸犯到WADA的法規，這很嚴重！你到時候就要準備上場，結果發現你的藥檢並沒有被適時的通知，然後因此錯失了，怎麼辦？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，我想這裡面有些也不是國手啦，不過藥檢這個觀念是很重要，WADA的規定非常嚴格，我們是不是請署長來做一個簡單說明，好不好？"],["柯委員志恩：等一下一併說明，等我把題目問完，WADA這個部分我常常會提到，我現在先問，等一下請署長一併來說明。禁藥管制中心到底是不是要設在我們的政府機構下面？因為目前為止是我們唯一的，如果內控沒有做好的話，是不是影響選手參賽權益，署長你認同嗎？次長，你認同嗎？可以，認同，好，我們往下來看，你看看各國運動禁藥的機構，有些是私法人，有些是政府機構，有些是國家奧會，臺灣是在什麼地方？臺灣是屬於哪一塊？臺灣的禁藥中心？"],["張廖次長萬堅：財團法人。"],["柯委員志恩：好，體育署有沒有提供經費？"],["鄭署長世忠：有，我們有補助。"],["張廖次長萬堅：有補助。"],["柯委員志恩：多少？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委辦。"],["柯委員志恩：3,000萬，你有沒有監督的責任？"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然有。"],["柯委員志恩：那禁藥中心怎麼樣看待你們體育署？5月3號禁藥基金會召開董監事會，因為這邊有一個詹貴惠教授，他已經被WADA認為他的身分上面其實是不宜，但是禁藥基金會卻告訴大家，實際業務並沒有實質的利益……體育署有沒有派人參加這場會議，有沒有？"],["張廖次長萬堅：有，有派人。"],["柯委員志恩：下場呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：被請出去。"],["柯委員志恩：被趕出去？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["柯委員志恩：有這種事？你花3,000萬資助一個基金會，然後體育署要來善盡你的責任，然後你們被基金會給趕出去？你看，因為大家是認為它沒有符合WADA的一個規定，政府可以輔導協助去做這樣的事情，我必須直指，雖然這是你們綠營的大佬，但是他就是這裡面的董事長，他直接嗆你們體育署，你沒有權管基金會的運作，有沒有這種事？你們花了3,000萬給人家請了一個董事長來，然後嗆你們沒有資格管理這件事。你們有沒有資格管這件事？"],["張廖次長萬堅：基本上，因為財團法人是獨立運作，雖然我們有補助，但它是一個獨立運作的基金會，我本身是沒有聽到這件事情，我不知道署長有沒有，我們請署長來回答。"],["柯委員志恩：你沒有聽到這件事啊？那我告訴你，署長，你沒有聽到這句？它的執行長都已經要請辭了，為什麼？因為他認為體育署……它雖然是個獨立的基金會，可是卻用你們代辦的費用裡面來支付董事長的薪水，代辦費用可以這樣做嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，首先這件事情我先解釋一下，在幾年前WADA要求世界各國政府支持運動禁藥這件事，我們有簽一個合約，這個合約上面有講到，第一個，我們全力要支持它的經費；第二個……"],["柯委員志恩：我知道啦，署長，這都不是問題！"],["鄭署長世忠：絕對不能有任何的介入，其實我們在這件事情上面，我們也是第一次遇到，我們也在學習。"],["柯委員志恩：你們在學習，你們不能夠介入？你們給它3,000萬，給它資助……"],["鄭署長世忠：對，但是……"],["柯委員志恩：你們想要來審核監督它費用的使用，它把你們體育署3,000萬裡面、代辦費，拿去支付董事長的薪資，你告訴我，你無權介入，這像話嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：委員這我們知道，但是WADA的確有強力要求，我們不能夠任何……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你的界線……"],["鄭署長世忠：所以當時我們才把它移出去變獨立的機構，這件事情我們的確在私底下有強力的去要求，所以後面他們也慢慢去導正他們的作法了。"],["柯委員志恩：有導正他們的作法？我只告訴你，代辦費不是這樣子用的，你是獨立機構，你給人家3,000萬，然後你什麼事都不能講，還被請出去！我都不曉得你為什麼可以忍得下這一口氣？連我們所看到的，很多都看不下去了，特別是裡面的執行長發了一封信直接表明他的心志，裡面這樣胡說八道、亂搞一通，經費沒有完全交代清楚，你們體育署可以置之不理嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員……"],["柯委員志恩：你告訴我它是獨立的機構……"],["鄭署長世忠：那位執行長也有過來找我們，都有釐清一些事情，其實這部分我們都有在處理當中……"],["柯委員志恩：都有處理了？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前也都導正過來了。"],["柯委員志恩：導正過來？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們現在要求他們所有的董事都不可以兼任何的訓練輔導相關事務。"],["柯委員志恩：所以我只能告訴你們，不要每次體育署的代辦費……太多人需要被你們照顧，不要以獨立機關之實，當你們做這些事情的時候，只是因為過去的資格、資歷都非常的大，以至於讓很多人都不敢有任何的聲音出現，我覺得這對我們來說是完全不能夠接受的，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：好。"],["柯委員志恩：最後的時間我們來看一下，你們現在要升格為體育暨運動發展部，你們應該都辦了4次的論壇嘛，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：已經兩次了。"],["柯委員志恩：已經兩次了，成效怎麼樣？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實我們第一場的確有點比較匆促，人數不夠多，但是第二場就滿場，在今天下午就有第三場要開始了……"],["柯委員志恩：滿場是社會賢達人士來，還是體育署長動用所有的關係，請他們號召人過來？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實都是體育界的人，不管怎麼樣，他們各個階層，從專業運動教練到政府機關代表幾乎都有人來參加，我們做了公告……"],["柯委員志恩：所以這個叫社會共識嗎？你認為這樣是社會共識嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們其實希望每一次都去聽取他們的民意，但是不是社會共識，當然我們後面還有很多的會議，我們在教育部也會邀請一些民間代表來……"],["柯委員志恩：我只是希望呈現出一個現實出來……"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["柯委員志恩：還有兩場，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["柯委員志恩：所以這完全是受體育署補助的單項協會，還有國立大學的老師都被你們號召來……"],["鄭署長世忠：還有很多是地方的委員會，那個跟我們無關啦！"],["柯委員志恩：但對不起，還是有很多東西都是環環相扣，都有人來跟本席來做這樣的說明，我只能告訴你們，所謂的社會共識是真正的社會共識，而不是在一場會議當中用不同的方法把他們動員過來，他們所提出來的意見並不能夠澈底反映很多基層運動員認為未來升格完之後該怎麼樣去做，這是一個非常大的部分，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：是，我們會再做微調。"],["柯委員志恩：未來兩場座談會，希望能夠真正贏得所謂的社會共識。"],["鄭署長世忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩召委，謝謝兩位。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：接下來請葛如鈞委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員林德\n福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案；四、審查委員陳培瑜等21\n人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案；五、審查\n台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一及第七條之二條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":1.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.53221875,"end":8.974718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.56096875,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.649093750000002,"end":65.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.560343750000001,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.85034375,"end":22.187843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.79284375,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.15034375,"end":81.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.23471875,"end":73.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.14909375,"end":102.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.90096875,"end":123.28596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.33721875,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.18846875000001,"end":126.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.17534375,"end":129.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.21034375000002,"end":181.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.67346875,"end":183.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.88846875000002,"end":188.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.41534375,"end":208.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.68596875,"end":212.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.85846875000001,"end":229.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.07534375,"end":236.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.65221875,"end":268.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.13659375000003,"end":269.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.77784375000005,"end":270.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.31346875,"end":272.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.17409375,"end":274.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.39721875000004,"end":275.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.37596875,"end":277.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.08471875000004,"end":277.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.89034375,"end":279.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.99159375,"end":279.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.90284375000005,"end":280.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.40909375,"end":282.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.67034375000003,"end":283.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.21034375,"end":287.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.61471875,"end":306.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.51471875000004,"end":307.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.88596875,"end":307.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.68721875,"end":310.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.49721875,"end":311.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.25659375000004,"end":311.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.98221875,"end":322.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.11971875,"end":344.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.70284375,"end":351.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.95909375,"end":363.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.03784375000004,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.33471875000004,"end":399.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.53096875,"end":393.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.32721875000004,"end":414.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.56284375,"end":404.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.43471875,"end":429.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.53096875,"end":420.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.05784375,"end":422.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.76159375000003,"end":452.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.16284375000004,"end":466.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.50221875000005,"end":496.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.85221875,"end":496.96596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.86471875,"end":498.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.56909375000004,"end":507.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.85909375000006,"end":513.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.5034687500001,"end":521.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.7934687500001,"end":522.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.7678437500001,"end":524.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.8015937499999,"end":533.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.2009687500001,"end":544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官地檢署的一個手上而且更荒謬的是我們在通過這個立法院職權行使法藍白一起要強行通過的46條之二"},{"start":178.67,"end":201.51,"text":"至少也有載明這一段,至少這一段也是在4至729號,他的精神都放進去,雖然放掉不完全,因為你們沒有講到說所謂牽結的案件,所謂不起訴的案件,他的調查的方法,但是至少也有講嘛,至少也有說吼,就以偵查中所謂的處置或證證,立法院不得行使調查權,"},{"start":203.541,"end":211.724,"text":"每次都說得這麼清楚：大法官也說得這麼清楚：昨天的處理：大法官針對這一次違憲擴權的法案：的一個暫時處分：昨天的規定而已：剛才我跟他問說：有立即的違憲嗎：謝謝召委：你讓全國的國民看到：立即的違憲的風險：就在我們經濟委員會今天的開會"},{"start":231.943,"end":234.212,"text":"你給大話關快點啦立即的危險在這裡啦好 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那個議事組員員"},{"start":30.756,"end":53.774,"text":"議事要很確定而且主題要很明確主題不能違法也不能模糊今天會議的主題是你依據立法院執行法部分條文相關規定相關規定為何是哪一條哪一項有這個規定來成立有關進口雞蛋執行情形調查專案小組跟運作的要點草案"},{"start":55.462,"end":75.256,"text":"為什麼本期在這邊告訴大家成立這個專案小組基本上是一個違法成立很明顯的幾個大法官事線第585跟729對偵查中的相關的卷證立法院不得調閱這樣違憲不?"},{"start":78.052,"end":105.901,"text":"李偉憲：無違法部當然違法按照我們剛通過在這個藍白兩黨合力之下通過的毀憲亂政的立法委員職權行使法部分條文第46條之二的規定偵查中的卷證立法院不得行使調查的權這個案子有沒有在這個行使調查有沒有在偵查有啊"},{"start":107.402,"end":122.51,"text":"幾個地檢署都在偵查,這個調查局也在偵查所以這很明顯是屬於偵查中的卷證立法院不得行使調查權你今天要成立這個專案小組你要行使調查權是不是就違法違憲一個違法違憲的這個調查小組我們市立法院各位諸公都是立法者"},{"start":134.295,"end":156.86,"text":"立法則不能拜託違法而且46字案是你們主導事項所通過的然後你們又是拜託違法如果你今天成立所謂這個立法院經濟委員會違法成立這個進口雞蛋調查專案小組本席也要成立一個針對立法院經濟委員會"},{"start":159.586,"end":180.979,"text":"違法成立進口雞蛋成立調查專案小組,我要成立這個調查專案小組。我成立,針對你今天成立這個違法的調查小組,我要成立這個調查小組,要調查你。楊瓊英主席召開成立這個調查,如果今天你強行要成立這個調查小組,一個違憲違法的這個調查小組,"},{"start":186.109,"end":209.838,"text":"那我要立刻成立一個調查小組,針對你這違法的這個成立我組成一個專案小組我如果成立這個小組,我反而是合憲合法因為他不是偵查中,也不是調查中我可以把你相關的決議可以調出來,也可以把你楊求英主席也可以調你來問,提供相關的卷證"},{"start":211.789,"end":233.62,"text":"所以明顯違法違憲為什麼這個基本上普羅大東都可以了解這個違法違憲的這個小組竟然能夠提上議程來討論匪夷所思華天下之大雞啊立法院難怪這個被全國人民所憂慮跟詬病"},{"start":235.635,"end":261.294,"text":"為什麼這一屆成立到現在全國老百姓最擔憂的就是立法院相關的運作相關的立法成立那麼多毀憲亂政的這個通過那麼多毀憲亂政的法案成立那麼多毀憲亂政的小組來破壞這個行政立法或者調查監察的這個分際"},{"start":262.878,"end":286.696,"text":"把所有的權力獨攬到立法院我想全國人民全國老百姓都無法接受這種違憲違法成立這個專案小組我再說一次如果你們今天要強行表決通過或者強行要通過這個調查小組我提案我另外成立一個調查小組來針對你今天為了成立成立一個調查專案小組"}]}},{"id":"154669","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154669","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9dd2765b274ddd7d9160fff40bb8bca63beb11409451ce2295f904473d48c895a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:16:27 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09:27:25","影片長度":"00:10:58","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第二十四條之二條文草案」案。\n四、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「運動產業發展條例增訂第七條之一、第七條之二及第七條之三條文草案」案。\n(進行詢答及逐條審查)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-07-11","start_time":"2024-07-11T09:16:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-07-11T09:27:25+08:00","duration":658,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":74,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時16分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請張廖次長跟鄭署長。"],["主席：次長跟署長，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長好。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：我首先要請教，我們之前一直在爭取球員代表出場的時候能夠有出賽費，出賽費這個事情在6月的時候，你看過去到現在，本席也都一直關心這個議題，當初我們在修相關條例的時候，就認為出賽費是應該的，並不是一個薪水，並不是有盈餘的時候才給，如果這樣可以的話，一般企業也可以講公司有賺錢才給薪水，這是不對的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但6月的時候，我們看到籃球、男籃很好，可以有出賽費一個5,000元，但沒想到最近又有風波，就是同工不同酬，並且有男女性別不平等的部分，為什麼會造成這樣的狀況？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想出賽費，尤其是這些運動球員多數是代表國家參與國際競賽，所以這個出賽費應該要給，我也非常感謝委員的分享，我覺得這是應該要做的。至於為什麼男籃的部分有先提出要給出賽費……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有看到3,000、5,000元？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天不是差2,000元的差別，今天是為什麼男籃、女籃會不平等？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我跟體育署長那時候看到也覺得很奇怪，我也跟署長講這個好像涉及到性別平等的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以協會在制定的時候也沒有跟體育署報告，它就自己制定了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想協會是自主運作，坦白講，我們政策上基於性別平等、基於為國家出賽，必須談到這個出賽費的問題，這個細節部分我們是不是請署長說明？"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在來講，女籃是要以再加2,000元激勵獎金的方式，所以看起來錢是一樣，但實際上不同，而且何處惹塵埃？現在2024年、民國113年了，我們還有男女不平等的狀況？這真的是完全沒有辦法接受喔！"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想教育部體育署這邊已經表達立場了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，站在這個立場，未來怎麼防範這樣的事情再發生？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想我們會積極跟各單項協會，基於性別平等、基於出賽費一律公平的情況下，以及應該要支付部分的費用，透過一個民主機制來協商，譬如跟工會好好來談，然後能夠得到一個比較好的結果。"],["洪委員孟楷：能不能承諾至少未來不要再發生這個事情？未來同一個國際盃賽，只要是同一個盃賽，球員的出賽費應該要一致。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我認為應該要一致。"],["洪委員孟楷：能不能承諾？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會……"],["洪委員孟楷：能不能下這個行政命令？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會發文要求，委員的這個要求跟關心，我想是對的，部這邊會責成體育署，要求各單項協會以後必須採取一致的立場。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席再次強調，之前我也講過，多少出賽費是協會或是球員他們去協調。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，協商。"],["洪委員孟楷：有一些運動相對來說，說實在的，票房比較好，有些運動雖然有售票，但是相對來講，可能市場沒有那麼大，但是出賽費應該要給，給多給少應該是協會去協商，但重點是不應該男女性別不平等，所以我剛剛也說了，只要是同一個盃賽就應該要出賽費一致，教育部會立即去督促嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會立即發文要求。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，今天講到運彩條例的相關部分，我先請教，有一個滿紅的YouTuber叫「好棒Bump」，他之前有打詐，他也有去柬埔寨救我們臺灣的人回來，不過他最近比較關注打詐，其中有一個話題是有些詐騙集團用運動彩券來做詐騙。我簡單敘述一下，因為這個影片滿長的、二十幾分鐘，但是現在點閱率已經將近百萬，他說詐騙集團會故意用報明牌的方式跟你說他們有內線消息，你跟著他之後就可以跟你講明天哪一支球隊會贏，叫你去買彩券，很多人就加會員，而且加會員要一萬、兩萬，他取信於民眾的方式是什麼？他會貼出運彩的單子，他說這一張中了二十萬、三十萬，但其實是串關。","接下來，這個「好棒Bump」就講到關鍵在哪裡，關鍵是詐騙集團可能買很多張，每一張都是用十塊錢、十塊錢這樣最低的投注金額去買，買了之後只要有中一張，他就可以用變造、P圖的方式，讓大家誤以為他中了一百萬、幾十萬，等於是他直接下大錢這樣子，他在裡面講到如果你可以，其實上面都有彩券的號碼，彩券現在只能輸入查詢這一張券到底有沒有中獎，但沒辦法顯示金額，因此很多詐騙集團就會故意這樣讓民眾誤以為他們真的有內線消息，這個影片出來一個半月了，請教有沒有看到這樣的影片？"],["張廖次長萬堅：體育署這邊有跟我們講這個情況。"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道體育署內部好像也有看到，因為本席辦公室那時候也有跟體育署聯繫說應該要注意。"],["張廖次長萬堅：已經跟運彩公司……"],["洪委員孟楷：並且本席也說要去思考，那時候看到也要去思考這樣會不會有個資的問題，但後來我們發覺，除非你自己買彩券之後高調地上網去講、po出來，否則的話，個人買個人的，那一張彩券號碼不會出現在任何地方，所以照理講，不會有個資的問題。但是詐騙集團可以拿這個來取信別人，變成好像是大家在幫他打廣告，所以如果輸入這個號碼能夠出現中獎金額到底是多少，譬如他只有中一百塊，但是詐騙集團把它P圖成中一百萬，其實就差很多，這樣就可以破解詐騙的話術。"],["張廖次長萬堅：報告委員，我們跟運彩公司有開過會，他們7月20號會在網頁提供查證，也就是說這是真的或假的，以避免有人誤解……"],["洪委員孟楷：還有查投注的金額，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，包括金額。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席今天特別提出來，就是我知道我們體育署正在做這個事情，可能也會立即改善，因此今天透過次長的嘴講出來，詐騙的方式百百種，但是魔高一尺，道要高一丈，能夠看到這樣的漏洞趕快去填補，我想這是好事。"],["張廖次長萬堅：有，7月20號運彩公司的網頁就可以查證。"],["洪委員孟楷：7月20號之後的運彩，你自己輸入號碼就可以知道金額？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：就可以讓詐騙集團不會再用這樣的一個方式？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝次長。最後，今天本席來不及提案，但是本席今天也會做相關的修正動議，本席其實有相關的提案，我們也知道現階段被大家詬病的一件事情，在於沒有被納入運彩條例的賽事就沒辦法用比較高的打假球、防詐的罰則，所以我們現在也在問，這次的修法重點希望能夠增加，主管機關認定的賽事就應該被納入這樣的罰則，而不只是運彩開賣的，因為運彩開賣的賽事，像國內之前T1、P、SBL有一些賽事沒有開賣。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，它沒有開。"],["洪委員孟楷：這可能造成比較沒辦法用到我們比較高的打假球的刑責，那我們要怎麼辦？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想這部分我們很認同委員提案版本的精神，所以在討論的時候，我們會同意把它擴大納入，把一些我們國內球迷比較喜歡看的，像是職籃，職棒已經有了，譬如有一些高強度的……"],["洪委員孟楷：甚至是企業排球聯賽或是……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，像高中棒球聯賽、籃球聯賽等等，都把它納入。"],["洪委員孟楷：黑豹旗、HBL。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我們初步……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然這一些目前是沒有……"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席也認為學生運動不應該有任何勢力介入，都應該以最嚴厲譴責，但是能不能把這些都納入保護？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會尊重大院的討論，然後把這些應該要限制被拿來當作賭博下注的一個運動賽事，我們都把它納入。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你知道美國NCAA大學籃球聯賽，它一些比賽的精彩度或強度，其實不亞於一般的球賽。"],["張廖次長萬堅：臺灣也是，HBL或是棒球……"],["洪委員孟楷：HBL或是UBA也都是這樣子嘛，好，我現在就直接請教，因為你們裡面有特別講到，還要再去跟司法院、法務部研商，對於這些賽事範圍的不公正行為需要刑法制裁，所以這次建議不予增列，那能不能另外一個角度是予以增列，你們在我們討論的時候，就應該提出相關的一個版本。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我想如果會後討論……"],["洪委員孟楷：進入逐條？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，在逐條的時候，法務部有代表過來，我們協商覺得有共識的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：或是你們就應該提出版本吧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，取得共識的話。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為你剛剛也講同意這樣的立法精神……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想這也是我們應該要做的，擴大納入，只是我們現在還沒有逐條的時間嘛！教育部能不能在逐條的時候提出你們相關的版本？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會尊重委員的版本……"],["洪委員孟楷：要尊重，我希望……"],["張廖次長萬堅：討論有共識的話我們會參採。"],["洪委員孟楷：半年前你也是委員，你不要尊重，支持行不行？"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然支持這個精神。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，支持，我們一起努力讓假球真的在臺灣消失，尤其……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，其實棒球現在防制的還不錯啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：今天早上，我又再看了一次，因為周思齊選手他這禮拜一也受我們召委的邀請，來立法院開公聽會……"],["張廖次長萬堅：有，我知道，我也認識他。"],["洪委員孟楷：早上我再看了一次2008年他黑米事件之後的致詞感言一分半，我本來想說今天要來放啦，但是後來覺得今天的時間真的很寶貴。可是我必須要說以這樣子的態度、認真打拼的球員，不管是在臺灣的任何一個角落，我們都要給予一個最高的支持，這是政府以及我們民意代表責無旁貸的使命。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想我們一樣，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝兩位，謝謝洪孟楷委員。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞代）：請柯志恩召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-22","speakers":["柯志恩","林德福","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","萬美玲","林倩綺","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","牛煦庭","吳春城","林楚茵","張智倫","黃國昌"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":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這個議題就認為是說當初我們在修相關條例的時候出賽費他就是應該並不是一個薪水並不是有盈餘的時候才給如果說這樣可以的話那"},{"start":46.078,"end":67.166,"text":"一般其實也可以講是說我公司有賺錢我才給你薪水這是不對的但六月的時候我們看到是說籃球男籃很好可以有出賽費一個五千塊但沒想到最近又有風波就是同工不從同仇並且有男女性別平等的部分不平等的部分那為什麼會造成這樣的狀況"},{"start":68.988,"end":83.232,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例四、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例五、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例六、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例七、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例八、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條"},{"start":95.595,"end":116.784,"text":"今天是為什麼男男女男會不平等我想那個體育署長我們那時候看到的時候覺得很奇怪我也跟署長講說這個好像涉及到性別平等的問題所以協會也沒有在制定的時候也沒有跟體育署報告他就自己制定了我想他協會是自主在運作啦他們還講說我們政策上當然基於性別平等基於為國家出賽必須應該談到這個出賽費的問題那我想署長這個細節部分是不是我們請署長"},{"start":122.807,"end":123.388,"text":"條例增訂第二十四條之"},{"start":140.811,"end":149.138,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等16人�"},{"start":169.534,"end":170.815,"text":"三條之二條之一條文草案：一、審查委員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":182.267,"end":201.822,"text":"我們會發文要求把這個委員的這個要求跟關心我想這是對的我想部這邊我們會跟體育署責成要求各單項協會以後必須採取一致的立場本席再次強調之前我也講過出賽費多少是協會或是球員他們去協調"},{"start":203.863,"end":213.886,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":228.491,"end":229.452,"text":"二、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":240.595,"end":242.236,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之"},{"start":261.286,"end":261.466,"text":"二十六條之"},{"start":287.426,"end":289.628,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具、「運動產業發展條例三十三條之一條文草案案案案案案"},{"start":312.35,"end":338.832,"text":"幾十萬。」等於是他直接下大錢這樣子那他裡面就講到如果說你可以其實上面都有彩券的號碼彩券的號碼現在只能查輸入只能查說這一張券到底有沒有中獎但你沒有辦法顯示金額也因此很多的詐騙集團就會故意這樣子讓民眾誤以為他們真的有內線消息這影片出來一個半月了請教有沒有看到這樣的影片"},{"start":341.451,"end":364.557,"text":"體育署這邊有跟我們講說有這個情況我知道體育署好像也有內部看到並且因為本席辦公室那個時候也有跟體育署這邊來聯繫說應該要注意並且本席也說也要去思考那時候也看到說要去思考說這樣會不會有個人各自的問題但後來我們發覺是說除非你自己買了彩券之後你自己要高調的上網"},{"start":365.177,"end":367.019,"text":"三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":390.979,"end":400.721,"text":"三條之二條之一條文草案﹚一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案﹚一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案﹚一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案﹚一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案﹚一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十六條之一條文草案﹚一、審查委員林德福等19人�"},{"start":420.245,"end":439.716,"text":"三條之三條之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":443.098,"end":467.707,"text":"本席來不及提案但是本席今天也會做相關的這個修正動議那本席其實也有相關提案其實我們也知道現階段其實被大家詬病的一件事情就在於是說運採條例其實沒有納入沒有被納入運採條例的賽事他就沒有辦法用到我們這個是相關的這一個比較高的這個打假球防炸的一個法則"},{"start":468.607,"end":497.236,"text":"所以我們現在也在問這次的修法重點也希望是說能夠增加主管機關制定的認定的賽事就應該被納入這樣的一個罰則而不是只是運採開賣的因為運採開賣像國內之前TP、SBL有一些賽事他沒有開賣那這造成是說這可能會有這樣子刑責比較沒有辦法用到我們比較高的這個打打假球的一個刑責那我們要怎麼樣"},{"start":498.158,"end":517.982,"text":"我想這一部分我們很認同委員提案版本的精神所以我們在討論的時候我們會同意這個擴大把它納入就把一些我們國內常常球迷比較喜歡看的像直籃或者是這個直棒已經有了那譬如說有一些甚至是企業排球聯賽對對對像高中棒球籃賽聯賽等等黑豹旗HBL"},{"start":523.803,"end":533.429,"text":"三條之一條之二條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":548.918,"end":563.986,"text":"市長你知道到美國啊NCAA大學籃球聯賽他其實他的一些比賽的精彩度或強度其實不亞於一般的球賽台灣也是台灣那個HBL或是UBA也都是這樣子嘛"},{"start":564.326,"end":566.788,"text":"條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案：一、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":583.403,"end":605.101,"text":"對我想如果我們會入主條對在主條的時候法務部有代表過來我們如果現在或是你們應該就應該提出版本吧對取得公司的話因為我們現在委員你剛剛也講是說同意這樣的立法精神我想這也是我們應該要做的擴大納入那只是我們現在還沒有主條的時間嘛那教育部能不能在主條的時候能夠提出你們相當的版本"},{"start":605.851,"end":606.352,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等19人擬具"},{"start":624.974,"end":625.394,"text":"三、審查委員林德福等16人擬具"},{"start":643.487,"end":644.248,"text":"三條之二條之一條"}]}},{"id":"154668","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154668","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db94f11ee26117a247739b61d768c41420ebeb11409451ce2292358c043e02a71fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"09:18:49 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謝謝主席主席既然現在是程序發言我可不可以請教一下今天的討論事項的文字依據修正後立法院職權行使法部分條文相關規定請問主席您今天排定的議程是依據立法院職權行使法哪一條條文來排定主席"},{"start":29.093,"end":44.578,"text":"主席請不要滑手機好不好我再跟您請發言現在是發言請發言我可以請教啊我可以請教主席您是依照依照職權行使法哪一條條文來排定這個現在是請各位委員請發言一個人三分鐘因為我們後面還有委員我們後面還有委員你是依照立法院職權行使法來排定經濟委員會都是最"},{"start":58.223,"end":58.644,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":62.29,"end":85.559,"text":"好 現在是每一個委員發言3分鐘好啦 主席 我知道你不敢回答如果依照剛剛我走過來的時候張祺凱委員很清楚地講這個條文已經在立法院通過了所以就可以開始實行如果是照你們剛剛這樣講的話那你就是依照立法院職權行使法第46條之2開始來排定這個議程嘛 對不對"},{"start":88.88,"end":95.744,"text":"你不敢回答我我可以很清楚告訴你依照立法院職權行使法第46條之二這個裡頭很清楚寫到這個是你們國民黨跟民眾黨委員通過的條文很清楚寫裁判確定前之訴訟案件就其偵查或審判所為之處置及其卷證立法院不得行使調查權"},{"start":118.078,"end":133.39,"text":"這是其一 其二 調查委員會成立之後其他依法應獨立行使職權的機關亦本於職權進行處理相關案件 調查委員會得停止調查換句話說"},{"start":137.212,"end":163.119,"text":"換句話說這個所謂你們要查的超私的案子112年5月檢調已經開始在進行調查檢調依他們的職權甚至監察院也依他們的職權在進行調查就國眾兩黨通過的立法院職權行使法第46條之二"},{"start":165.758,"end":178.056,"text":"現在立法院是不應該也不能夠成立調查委員會即使你成立了之後你必須要停止調查這是依照"},{"start":180.386,"end":203.323,"text":"國民黨民眾黨通過的所謂的立法委員職權行使法所以我剛剛才會請教主席你是依照哪一條法令來排定今天的報告案今天的成立調查委員會的案子第一你不敢回答我第二如果依照你們通過的這個版本"},{"start":204.244,"end":224.592,"text":"依照你通過的這個版本我先不談它有沒有違憲你們通過了這個版本在調查當中的案子檢調在調查當中的案子立法院不得越卷不得調查即使在這個之前成立的委員會在調查當中的案子我們也要停止調查權結果法是你們過的現在要帶頭違法也是你們太好笑了吧"},{"start":234.298,"end":244.747,"text":"主席啊回去墊高枕頭想一想啊要擴權的也是你們說要行使調查權也是你們通過這個法以後首先要帶頭違法的也是你們滑天下之大雞啊真的滑天下之大雞啊你們昨天被大法官打臉臉還不夠腫嗎還不夠腫嗎你們今天真的還要這樣子違法硬幹懸崖勒馬吧"}]}},{"id":"154663","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154663","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db9cdf4b7f58c370d5c39b61d768c41420ebeb11409451ce229c4e7b6cfcd426f665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:08:59 - 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案 ﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案 案 ﹚立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第二十四條之一條文草案 案 ﹚立法院第11會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第11會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「運動產業發展條例第11會期教育及文化委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「"},{"start":34.329,"end":52.683,"text":"三條文修正草案 案 規範不是無法保障運動賽事之公平性,如有不法分子破壞其禁忌公平性之事情,僅能原用刑法相關規定來辦理。」"},{"start":55.117,"end":72.327,"text":"我國為維護整個運動禁忌之相關法規的公平性當然可能有一些漏洞所以說今天要提出這個運動發展條例增訂第24條之二的這個草案以這個"},{"start":78.81,"end":97.461,"text":"條文草案 以完善我國法規對國內賽事禁忌公平性之保護並嚇阻不法分子企圖與不法手段來影響賽事獲取不法的利益。這個疏忽有當當然在進行公決因為2009的時候職棒這個甲球賽這個這個"},{"start":108.291,"end":120.301,"text":"三條文修正草案案 案 令整個民眾對職業運動賽事的公平性的信任度,使得棒球產業受到很嚴重的衝擊,當時沒有辦法來滿足一些法源作為審判的依據。"},{"start":128.047,"end":137.914,"text":"那最終啊涉案的人員只有以兩年以下有期徒刑並一刻劃清造成民怨繪騰那立法院於2011年1月通過這個運採條例第21條修正案"},{"start":144.079,"end":168.38,"text":"其圖加重對於打球員打甲球簽讀的相關罰則那運採條例第二十一條僅有規範投注標的以及運動競技賽事若非這個運採投注的賽事恐有不適之用"},{"start":170.01,"end":193.251,"text":"而現今運動產業有許多具有規模性的運動職業聯盟來舉辦例行性的職業聯賽皆會投注標的的運動競技賽事不符合運產條例第二十一條之構成要件所以說近期發生職業籃球聯盟"},{"start":195.717,"end":213.548,"text":"球員射擊打假球以地下主投遷堵之不法案件違恐相關案件重演2009年職棒的假球賽沒有辦法可以重處這些涉案人員造成民眾對我國運動競賽事件"},{"start":219.412,"end":223.761,"text":"再度這個信任度來大幅的下滑再度重創我國運動產業發展與運動競技環境之公平"},{"start":230.178,"end":255.253,"text":"氣氛二氛圍所以說我們今天要增加本條文希望整個運動賽事能夠以競爭公平性之保護以維護運動產業良善的一些發展以上謝謝好謝謝林德福委員的提案說明那我們接下來我們就請教育部的張亮政次來進行報告報告的時間是"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}