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主計總署 交易部 行政院 內政部 海委會 經濟部 農業部 外交部 法務部 考試院 僑委會 國發會 公平會等含送書面資料交相關委員會134-137 司法院 主計總署 國防部含送114年度中央政府總預算案 單位預算刊物表及總預算案刊物表交財政及相關委員會並114年度中央政府總預算案處理"},{"start":2036.047,"end":2055.581,"text":"一三八至一四二監察院含為預算決議事項交司法及法治委員會處理一四三人事處含送立法院第11屆第2會期各委員會交集委員名單國民黨黨團提議陣列一委員葛如軍等擬具指通安全管理法交交通委員會審查二至三委員黃建豪等擬具電信管理法交交通委員會審查學校公參法交交易及文化委員會審查"},{"start":2056.702,"end":2071.721,"text":"4至5委員呂玉玲等女居就業保險法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查客家語言發展法交內政委員會審查6委員蘇清泉等女居地方制度法交內政司法及法治兩委員會審查7至9委員邱振軍等女居老年農民福利津貼暫行條例交社會福利及衛生環境經濟內政三委員會審查"},{"start":2073.723,"end":2074.564,"text":"委員會審查委員會審查委員會審查委員會審查委員會審查委員會審查"},{"start":2104.364,"end":2105.324,"text":"委員會審查委員會審查委員會審查委員會審查委員會審查"},{"start":2127.161,"end":2150.264,"text":"28至36委員中嘉賓等女居醫療法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查道路交通管理處罰條例交交通委員會審查中華民國刑法交司法及法制委員會審查調度司法警察條例交司法及法制內政兩委員會審查中華民國刑法交司法及法制委員會審查電信管理法交交通委員會審查刑事輸送法中華民國刑法交司法及法制委員會審查國家中醫研究院設置條例交司法及法制社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查"},{"start":2152.406,"end":2169.046,"text":"37-41 委員吳立華等已居 貨物稅條例交財政委員會審查發展觀光條例交交通委員會審查 證券交易稅條例 菸酒稅法 娛樂稅法交財政委員會審查42-52 委員沈伯陽等 委員林益晶等 委員黃潔等 委員蔡易餘等 委員郭育群等 委員張宏祿等 委員張雅玲等 委員林月琴等 委員李柏毅等"},{"start":2169.806,"end":2189.716,"text":"委員吳秉瑞等委員陳培鈺等分別擬去臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例交內政委員會審查五十三行政院韓經審議114年度中央政府總預算案及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第五期特別預算案引請院會定型舉行會議邀請行政院院長主席長財政部部長國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長夜席報告114年度施政計畫114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":2191.997,"end":2219.374,"text":"及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案編制經過並備諮詢諮詢事項對行政院院長施政報告繼續諮詢宣讀完畢好我們宣讀完畢現在請登記委員發言我們第一位請林委員思明發言主席各位委員大家午安"},{"start":2220.596,"end":2241.911,"text":"本院國民黨團提案針對第11屆第2會期第2次會議陣列報告事項第42至53案暫緩列案其餘照議事日程草案及各黨團提議陣列報告事項通過是否有當盡請公決提案人中國國民黨立法院黨團"},{"start":2249.039,"end":2266.965,"text":"42至5242至53包括中央政府總預算是是是這個史無前例接下來我們請第二第二位登記委員我們請王委員正續發言"},{"start":2277.691,"end":2300.316,"text":"好 主席 各位委員同仁案由是針對第11屆第2會期第2次會議議程報告事項 質詢事項及對行政院長報告施政施增繼續質詢 建請照議事日程草案及政列報告事項通過提案人 民主進步黨立法院黨團 謝謝"},{"start":2304.755,"end":2308.351,"text":"好 接下來我們請登記第3位的程委員御爭發言"},{"start":2318.507,"end":2335.359,"text":"今天國民黨團提出兩件一件就是兩人關係條例這個提了無數次的就是意圖讓內政部來限制這些民意代表的這個人身自由這個憲法保障的自由露出這個自由還要經過審查這個部分從40幾案到52案43到5242到50"},{"start":2343.581,"end":2368.299,"text":"第52案本黨團提出的理由已經重複無數遍不再贅述第二有關中央政府總預算及前瞻計畫特別預算這個部分剛剛我聽到主委說實務潛力大家不知道有沒有注意立法院公報當初賴清德、卓榮泰、柯建民都同時在擔任立法委員的時候民進黨團也曾經提出這樣的"},{"start":2370.381,"end":2371.301,"text":"退回中央政府總預算"},{"start":2390.752,"end":2415.857,"text":"廣大農民的公糧收購的這個價格還有很重要的我們醫療醫療機構我們要求保障健保點值0.95以上因為大家都知道現在病醫院有常常有病床但是沒有沒有醫護人員可以協助所以已經嚴重剝奪了人民接受醫療這個權利那針對這些立法院最高民營機構通過的這些決議我們在今年的總預算裡頭完全沒有看到邊路"},{"start":2416.917,"end":2439.627,"text":"所以我不知道行政院是完全在藐視民意呢或是根本不在乎原住民不在乎農民也不在乎我們廣大人民的這個醫療權利所以我們提出說退種預算並不會影響到現在正在施行任何施政只是希望行政院長我們的這個相關單位把當初立法院做的決議這些預算重新編進去以上謝謝"},{"start":2444.397,"end":2453.782,"text":"好接下來我們請登記第4位林委員處應發言我們在林委員處應發言結束之前 截止發言登記謝謝主席各位媒體朋友"},{"start":2469.843,"end":2476.908,"text":"這個將是在立法院的國會史上程序委員會現在是連總預算審都不審"},{"start":2478.536,"end":2500.391,"text":"全部整本退回我就問在場的國民黨跟民眾黨的立法委員總預算各個部會厚厚一大疊都是用推車推進來你們看了嗎如果你們連內容都沒有看就全部退回這個叫做失職叫做薪水小偷"},{"start":2501.823,"end":2511.612,"text":"有句話說活得久什麼都看得到2008年的時候本席在TVBS擔任記者本席在當記者的時候坦白說當時"},{"start":2522.386,"end":2538.25,"text":"民進黨只有20幾席的空間請問要怎麼退回程序委員會當中的總預算怎麼退回院會當中的總預算如果當年可以退回的話請問一下民進黨現在51席我們有51席我們當然可以守得住啊如果27席可以退回51席怎麼會守不住怎麼會發生上個星期五的時候"},{"start":2553.049,"end":2577.919,"text":"這種莫名其妙荒腔走板只為了做政治操作我就說各位軍公教的朋友你們的加薪3%就這樣被退回去了我就說那些等著私校補助的朋友們你們的補助被退回去了像這樣的惡意杯葛所造成的是整體的國家社會無法前進"},{"start":2579.574,"end":2588,"text":"我就問這樣的一個狀態底下合理嗎是因為要做薪水小偷嗎我就問二億杯格種預算到底誰受會沒有人受會全民受害但是誰受會有就是在場的藍白的立法委員們作秀可以"},{"start":2610.523,"end":2627.23,"text":"但是不要讓全民受害我再次強調從上個會期藍白過數過半的立法院當中我們看到的是兩岸人民關係條例這種攸關國家安全的法案"},{"start":2628.328,"end":2647.244,"text":"在程序委員會被擋了61次在立法院的院會當中被擋了91次你說法案可以不用過沒關係可以門戶動開沒關係但是最後5秒鐘我就問全民受害總預算要退回合理嗎好我們現在截止登記發言"},{"start":2657.648,"end":2674.186,"text":"接下來我們請登記第5位專委員瑞雄發言謝謝主席 各位在場的媒體朋友 我們立法院所有的委員"},{"start":2675.952,"end":2684.935,"text":"這個喔 今天我剛剛聽了 很仔細的聽啦 剛剛林士明委員很聰明 他就講說是否有當 他就點點你知不知道 什麼叫點點提案暫緩立案 會點點就是說抱歉啦 抱歉說理由啦 然後呢"},{"start":2693.666,"end":2713.715,"text":"我也有聽到其他的委員這樣的一個講法說要把整個總預算這樣給退回去思考一下這個劇本這樣演下去好不好第一個我們程序委員會什麼時候我們也要來取代整個委員會把預算放在我們程序委員會裡面來審有嗎第二個"},{"start":2718.257,"end":2738.679,"text":"我想民眾黨的委員也要仔細的想一下啦那不是齁 人牽都不走 整條牽都不走啦你要跟著國民黨把這個案 你們也要去陪葬下去啦我也不曉得等一下你們的態度會怎麼樣啦你們也許會講說 哎喲 那個整個政令宣導的一個預算啊 過高那你在委員會裡面 你去把它砍掉啊"},{"start":2739.704,"end":2755.606,"text":"好好的去做一個討論這個是總預算這個是總預算所以是不是從我看兩岸人民關係條例的部分兩個案子本來沈博洋一直提那你們也一直擋"},{"start":2756.287,"end":2756.327,"text":"主席"},{"start":2778.342,"end":2803.569,"text":"全部都退回去 拍謝回家吧 回家改一改然後呢 改完了以後再送過來 這個成何體統啊也許你們會去講啦 會講說法定的支出啊 那全部都可以照列行政部門可以這樣子 都沒有這筆預算也沒有關係那整個行政部門來編這個總預算 送到程序委員會要幹嘛"},{"start":2804.611,"end":2821.32,"text":"只要符合程序只要符合議事規則我看今天在場的所有的朋友國家大家的要把這個預算哪一筆不合理就到委員會去發揮你們的功力在這個地方擋我看這只會讓老百姓透氣好 接下來我們請當地第6位陳委員御尊第二次發言"},{"start":2839.844,"end":2860.535,"text":"如果民進黨 如果我們的執政黨政府 真心在乎百姓的話 在我們退回總預算的同時 就趕快把去年我們通過的不管是原住民 農民 醫療點子 健保點子相關的預算 趕快重新編進來 以國家人民為紀念 趕快重編"},{"start":2861.596,"end":2874.165,"text":"第2個 不知道是誰是心水小偷 眼睛越漲重 沒有仔細看到這個今年的預算裡頭 我隨便舉個例子警政署的宣傳預算 媒宣預算 從1400萬增到2.3億"},{"start":2879.248,"end":2894.591,"text":"衛福部從9億增加到14.9億增加了65%勞動部從1.28億增加到2.08億不知道有沒有人知道是不是有人不知道說自己身為民意代表就是在幫百姓監督政府"},{"start":2895.572,"end":2896.032,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2912.958,"end":2920.3,"text":"不是在這邊 像詐騙集團一樣 詐騙百姓說明明這個是114年預算 114年都還沒有開始恐嚇百姓說 你的加薪沒有的 你的滯水預算沒有了 你的什麼兒童福利沒有了今天是110年 113年19月 都還沒10月113年9月 還有3個月行政院動作快一點 下個禮拜重新編衝進來 我們就趕快的審啊"},{"start":2940.114,"end":2953.444,"text":"用這個東西來恐嚇百姓民進黨真是人民所痛恨的詐騙集團啊詐騙百姓當作百姓不懂是嗎所以就是國民黨團提出的退回中央這種準預算非常的有道理 謝謝好接下來我們請登記第7位林委員國城發言謝謝主席本來我是不講話的"},{"start":2970.652,"end":2996.924,"text":"結果議題到臺灣民眾黨非得講話我特別要奉獻民進黨大會結議退回程序委員會請問依法召開程序委員會大家不是說法治嗎那就大家來表決嘛那為什麼不能談呢所以我還是要奉獻"},{"start":2998.362,"end":3020.851,"text":"民進黨自己想一想退回來以後有沒有協商解釋能不能讓他過有沒有沒有你們就在演戲嘛第二沈伯陽的案子你們認為今天這個程序委員會很重要請問一下"},{"start":3021.977,"end":3022.997,"text":"臺灣人民看得很清楚"},{"start":3046.247,"end":3057.458,"text":"重申 臺灣民眾黨有自己的主體性我要拜託 不要說什麼的 說什麼的 跟人家那個白毛 不要這樣說臺灣民眾黨 對事不對人對的 任何政黨 我們都支持不對的 我們當然要堅持"},{"start":3066.266,"end":3075.113,"text":"所以雖然反對黨但是我們是理性務實再度重申臺灣民眾黨是對事不對人好接下來我們請登記第8位莊委員瑞雄第2次發言"},{"start":3092.751,"end":3116.646,"text":"主席 各位委員我特別要回應您國城委員我沒說您公公對人家去賠謀這是您台灣民眾黨自己創出來了我是說人牽不走 鬼牽咕咕走陳玉珍委員是做足了功課但是在我聽起來還是叫做嘴炮為什麼你如果這麼做足了功課這一些預算哪一筆不合理就在委員會裡面把它給刪掉啊"},{"start":3117.606,"end":3137.441,"text":"好像講的說法定預算可以去執行然後你們認為說在程序委員會全部把它給擋掉然後再做協商協商什麼時候是在程序委員會裡面做協商如果程序完備了符合議事規則了為什麼不列不要自我膨脹這種地步我料在場你們剛發言的你們根本總預算都還沒有看你注意就把它看啊然後你說你看啊那看了就很簡單啊那你水利建設的159億的不是這一次匡列的嗎"},{"start":3147.802,"end":3162.213,"text":"那你整個住宅基金210的不是在這一次放進去的嗎這些是在法定支出嗎所以要想想看啦不要說不合你的意預算編的好像是說我都不爽全部退回去"},{"start":3163.547,"end":3177.61,"text":"再送進來你們還是不爽啦你們照樣還是把他退啦所以啊這個真正解決之道啊你說要協商當然是可以協商但是協商不是在程序委員會這邊協商嘛在各個委員會裡面哪一筆預算你覺得不合理大家講講道理嘛所以以上啊我還是奉勸啊這個臺灣民眾黨不要連這裏也要對人走啦你們老大一下去廢了你們賣鬆了之後在立法院裡面都撒了黑白蔥這樣不好啦"},{"start":3197.46,"end":3202.851,"text":"登記發言委員全部發言完畢了我們要進行處理這個"},{"start":3208.955,"end":3232.487,"text":"本席剛才有脫口說了指無前例這確實是指無前例是從來沒有在程序委員會退過總預算過去一次另外一個就是這個禮拜之外之前親民黨退過一次但是那個都在院會從來沒有說在程序委員會連排議程都不排進去"},{"start":3234.793,"end":3259.265,"text":"這個就我個人我這樣認為是說我們程序委員會的人我們就決定了大家全院的人都沒有機會來審查這個總預算我是覺得這個確實是史無前例那我也希望說當然我們還是照程序來照程序來進行但是我是希望說我們這個總預算你在程序委員會是擋掉等於對於全院的委員來講"},{"start":3260.826,"end":3287.987,"text":"對於這個我們可以其實我們可以讓他程序委員會讓他排入議程你們在院會裡面再去把他退回這東西是是照程序來但是在程序委員會就退回總預算這確實是中華民國史上立法院史上首第一次這個史無前例好那我們我們現在開始進行處理我們依照提案先後順序進行處理"},{"start":3289.54,"end":3307.912,"text":"處理順序我們第一個我們先處理林思明委員的提案就是這個將增列第42案到53案暫緩列案其餘均照議程草案及增列報告事項通過請問贊成林思明委員提案的請舉手對不起請清點人數"},{"start":3321.223,"end":3346.014,"text":"好這個我們現在贊成林志明委員提案的請舉手好那我們我們反對"},{"start":3348.8,"end":3374.538,"text":"好 我們反對林斯林委員提案的請舉手有棄權一位嗎"},{"start":3380.472,"end":3408.012,"text":"好我們初期委員17人贊成者9人反對者7人棄權者1人我們贊成者多數我們就照林思平委員提案通過那這個我們接下來因為這個我們這通過的就照這個其餘均照增列事項編列所以我們王正旭委員的提案我們就不予處理了"},{"start":3409.208,"end":3433.908,"text":"那這個所以我們報告事項修正通過那我們質詢事項是對行政院長施政報告繼續質詢我們也通過那這個接下來請宣讀人民請願案人民請願一韓送本院委員審查者共32二一請願法第4條之規定系屬應用及訴訟之事項共21案三一立法院質詢實施法第6處條規定韓轉機關處理者共24案宣亂並"},{"start":3445.2,"end":3450.332,"text":"好 宣讀完畢那請問有無異議沒有異議我們通過請問有無臨時動議"},{"start":3452.813,"end":3474.989,"text":"沒有臨時動議那我報告委員會經各黨團同意及國民黨黨團來函本會及本委員會由黃孟楷委員羅廷輝委員陳玉珍委員黃仁委員更換為陳金輝委員王紅薇委員翁曉琳委員及林倩琪委員以上跟委員會報告那現在謝謝各位委員我們散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-1","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第1次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期程序委員會第1次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第2會期第2次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","委員發言時間":"11:30:02 - 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各位委員我特別要回應您國城委員我沒有說您說話對人去賠謀這是您臺灣民眾黨自己創出來了我是說人牽不走 鬼牽咕咕走陳玉珍委員是做足了功課但是在我聽起來還是叫做嘴炮為什麼你如果這麼做足了功課這一切預算奶筆不合理就在委員會裡面把它給刪掉啊"},{"start":29.514,"end":34.399,"text":"好像講的說法定預算可以去執行然後你們認為說在程序委員會全部把它給擋掉然後再用協商協商什麼時候是在程序委員會裡面做協商如果程序完備了符合議事規則了為什麼不列不要自我膨脹這種地步我料在場你們剛發言的你們根本總預算都還沒有看"},{"start":51.087,"end":74.149,"text":"你注意就把它看啊然後你說你看啊那看了就很簡單啊那你水利建設的159億的不是這次匡列的嗎那你整個住宅基金200億的不是在這次放進去的嗎這些是在法定支出嗎所以要想想看啊不要說不合你的意預算編的好像是說我都不爽全部退回去"},{"start":75.478,"end":97.872,"text":"再送進來你們還是不爽啦你們照樣還是把他退啦所以啊這個真正解決之道啊你說要協商當然是可以協商但是協商不是在程序委員會這邊協商嘛在各個委員會裡面哪一筆預算你覺得不合理大家講講道理嘛所以以上啊我還是奉勸啊這個臺灣民眾黨不要輾遲你要跟別人走啦你們撈大一點的秘密之後你們不爽之後在立法院裡面都傻傻的亂衝這樣不好啦"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-1","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第1次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:21:33 - 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媒宣預算從1400萬增到2.3億"},{"start":46.452,"end":61.773,"text":"衛福部從9億增加到14.9億增加了65%勞動部從1.28億增加到2.08億不知道有沒有人知道是不是有人不知道說自己身為民意代表就是在幫百姓監督政府"},{"start":62.774,"end":63.054,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":80.163,"end":89.191,"text":"不是在這邊像詐騙集團一樣 詐騙百姓說明明這個是114年預算 114年都還沒有開始恐嚇百姓說 你的加薪沒有的 你的滯水預算沒有你的什麼兒童福利沒有了今天是110年 113年19月 都還沒10月113年9月 還有3個月行政院動作快一點 下個禮拜重新編衝進來我們就趕快的審啊"},{"start":107.378,"end":120.081,"text":"用這個東西來恐嚇百姓民進黨真是人民所痛恨的詐騙集團啊詐騙百姓當作百姓不懂是嗎所以就是國民黨團提出的退回中央這種準預算非常的有道理 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-1","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第1次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:17:17 - 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各位在場的媒體朋友 立法院所有的委員"},{"start":15.303,"end":25.675,"text":"這個喔今天我剛剛聽了很仔細的聽啦剛剛林士明委員很聰明他就講說是否有當他就點點你知道嗎什麼叫點點提案暫緩立案會點點就是說抱歉啦抱歉說理由啦然後呢"},{"start":33.038,"end":52.907,"text":"我也有聽到其他的委員這樣的一個講法說要把整個總預算這樣給退回去思考一下這個劇本這樣演下去好不好第一個我們程序委員會什麼時候我們也要來取代整個委員會把預算放在我們程序委員會裡面來審有嗎第二個"},{"start":57.628,"end":78.142,"text":"我想民眾黨的委員也要仔細的想一下啦那不然齁 人牽都不走 幾牽都不走啦你要跟著國民黨把這個案 你們也要去陪葬下去啦我也不曉得等一下你們的態度會怎麼樣啦你們也許會講說 唉呦 那個整個政令宣導的一個預算啊 過高那你在委員會裡面 你去把它砍掉啊好好的去做一個討論啦那這個是總預算欸 這個是總預算欸"},{"start":84.511,"end":100.544,"text":"所以是不是從我看兩岸人民關係條例的部分兩個案子本來沈博洋一直提那你們也一直擋那沈博洋現在還沒出現啊你那麼討厭你們覺得沈博洋長得比你們帥要把他的案子全部都退掉那今天他也沒來啊也不會遮掩掉你們的光彩啊那為什麼連這兩個案你們把他給砍掉以後暫緩立案以後連你的總預算你都要把他給侵入進去喔"},{"start":114.005,"end":142.918,"text":"這就變成說 你們認為說 只要我不爽全部都退回去 抱歉 回家吧回家改一改 然後呢 改完了以後再送過來 這個成何體統啊也許你們會去講啦 會講說法定的支出啊 那全部都可以照列行政部門可以這樣子 都沒有這筆預算 也沒有關係那整個行政部門來編這個總預算 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截止發言登記謝謝主席 各位媒體朋友這個將是在立法院的國會史上程序委員會現在是連總預算 審都不審"},{"start":28.109,"end":49.97,"text":"全部整本退回我就問在場的國民黨跟民眾黨的立法委員總預算各個部會厚厚一大疊都是用推車推進來你們看了嗎如果你們連內容都沒有看就全部退回這個叫做失職叫做薪水小偷"},{"start":51.397,"end":61.146,"text":"有句話說 活得久 什麼都看得到2008年的時候本席在TVBS擔任記者本席在當記者的時候坦白說 當時"},{"start":71.96,"end":87.826,"text":"民進黨只有20幾席的空間請問要怎麼退回程序委員會當中的總預算怎麼退回院會當中的總預算如果當年可以退回的話請問一下民進黨現在51席我們有51席我們當然可以守得住啊如果27席可以退回51席怎麼會守不住怎麼會發生上個星期五的時候"},{"start":102.622,"end":109.306,"text":"這種莫名其妙荒腔走板只為了做政治操作我就說各位軍公教的朋友你們的加薪3%就這樣被退回去了我就說那些等著私校補助的朋友們你們的補助被退回去了像這樣的惡意杯葛所造成的是整體的國家社會無法前進"},{"start":129.144,"end":137.551,"text":"我就問這樣的一個狀態底下合理嗎是因為要做薪水小偷嗎我就問二億杯格種預算到底誰受會沒有人受會全民受害但是誰受會有就是在場的藍白的立法委員們作秀可以"},{"start":160.097,"end":176.814,"text":"但是不要讓全民受害我再次強調從上個會期藍白過數過半的立法院當中我們看到的是兩岸人民關係條例這種攸關國家安全的法案"},{"start":177.901,"end":196.705,"text":"在程序委員會被擋了61次在立法院的院會當中被擋了91次你說法案可以不用過沒關係可以門戶洞開沒關係但是最後5秒鐘我就問全民受害總預算要退回合理嗎"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-1","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第1次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:10:54 - 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我不知道行政院是完全在藐視民意呢 或是根本不在乎原住民 不在乎農民 也不在乎我們廣大人民的這個醫療權利所以 我們提出說 退一種預算 並不會影響到現在正在施行任何施政只是希望 行政院長 我們的這個相關單位 把當初立法院做的決議這些預算 重新編進去 以上 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-1","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第1次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:08:37 - 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院長你先休息我們請那個速發部速發部長"},{"start":460.138,"end":465.16,"text":"我想新加坡這個投資10億的新幣大概250億的台幣在AI的發展然後他們經發局也網羅全球的人才"},{"start":489.086,"end":510.824,"text":"包括在Google在新加坡本來有3座資料中心現在已經2024今年設了第4座然後在台灣Google在我們彰化為主有資料中心微軟主要在桃園現在有一所叫做亞馬遜他打算投資高雄"},{"start":511.611,"end":538.18,"text":"打算投資臺灣是不是有機會到高雄這個我們也希望說中央可以重視另外新加坡其實他很會吸收人才就是從科技準證吸引國際人才等等還有一些家庭辦公室等等有很多蠻好的措施我們想先請教一下就是海底電纜海纜霸權這個是一個最基本的條件"},{"start":539.24,"end":566.293,"text":"新加坡上岸的大概有400垂簾的流量香港大概不到200的流量臺灣大概有109左右的流量那大部分都從北部的海南站上來北部有三個海南站那南部的仿山呢大概上來的流量大概不到一梯啦那我是希望說在高雄是不是有機會設立這個數位港口"},{"start":567.288,"end":595.44,"text":"也就是說讓全球的資訊資料大數據可以在高雄上岸這個部分速發部是不是有規劃是跟委員報告本部已經在9月2號邀請相關部會包含國科會交通部和航港局港務公司以及高雄市政府召開座談會就是討論就是要這樣高雄海嵐的上岸地點那我們這個正在討論那我們會積極的進行這件事情"},{"start":596.543,"end":623.466,"text":"什麼時候可以完成這個海欄站這個還在研商報告委員現在還沒有明確的日期估計的時間沒有按上現在都在跟時間賽跑目前我們了解的狀況因為這個有很多的部會必須一起合作一起負責包含高雄市政府所以我們這個事情可能雙方都要再加把勁"},{"start":624.235,"end":653.385,"text":"現在跟院長報告希望說院長可以幫忙追進度就是我們現在高雄可能在興達電廠那邊有之前運煤的那個通道現在那個地方是一個很好的設置海底電纜站的地方那我們其實就是大概台電跟港務公司我們幾乎都溝通過跟速發部溝通過希望說這個部分速發部可以儘速進行也就是說你一個海纜登陸站先設定好"},{"start":654.565,"end":677.558,"text":"將來其他海嵐公司都會陸續上來包括中華電信 包括其他民間業者海嵐公司都讓他上來我希望說速發部就是用一個公平的原則以前主要上來的海嵐站幾乎都是中華電信但是其實我們希望說有多個不同的進來這樣子對我們的數位韌性對於我們的國安治安"},{"start":678.158,"end":683.522,"text":"蘇發部預定在10月2號我們會邀集7家國際海欄業者以及高雄市政府在進一步開會盡快加速這件事情還有就是蘇發部的100億的AI軟體應用的"},{"start":705.718,"end":711.845,"text":"資金主要是for我們國內的企業還是可以for地方政府還是可以for國外的企業"},{"start":712.968,"end":716.731,"text":"你可以看到新加坡他這裡什麼叫科技準證他去世界網絡人才"},{"start":743.444,"end":764.575,"text":"那臺灣人其實真的很強在那個臺灣人有一個做那個Living Optics那個AI相機其實你看包括輝達黃仁鑫臺灣人包括AMD蘇之鋒臺灣人包括梁建厚美超委"},{"start":765.39,"end":784.086,"text":"包括這一家這一家其實是臺灣人新創他這個其實用那個顏色可以做AI的辨識其實比人眼可能要強100倍這個其實他是人才但是其實他在英國然後被新加坡吸引去了所以就是說我們這一百"},{"start":784.821,"end":785.522,"text":"新加坡走很前面"},{"start":808.084,"end":829.185,"text":"當然我們不是都惡人但是好的我們可以學習所以你吸收國際人才包括你看像我們這個臺灣人叫新加坡吸氣我們也很沒差所以這個部分可能是為發展部跟國發會甚至跟經濟部我們是不是有一個國內的類似新加坡的經濟發展區"},{"start":832.653,"end":847.927,"text":"經濟發展局跟特務一樣很厲害全世界各地的展覽他都去看看一看以後有什麼好的展覽他都去拜訪拜訪覺得將來有機會就把他找進來找進來以後這個是一個很強的企業他還可以增加就業機會可以增加國內投資"},{"start":849.165,"end":864.37,"text":"所以這個角度事實上我們國內是不是請行政團隊可以組一個類似這樣子的團隊去全世界征服不是征服去找這樣一個優秀的人才到國內來我是覺得這個非常的重要"},{"start":864.79,"end":888.855,"text":"是完全同意委員的看法發展AI高科技產業最重要的是人才最優秀的人才都希望居住在一個美麗迷人而且宜居的城市高雄是一個美麗迷人而且宜居的城市所以我們認為說高雄是發展AI一個很好的地點我們這個部分希望就是說我們跟"},{"start":889.695,"end":896.06,"text":"中央需要專門去找人才的單位不管是經濟部、國發會、速發部也好要有這樣的方向去找甚至110的基金裏否國內企業有沒有否地方政府"},{"start":914.161,"end":936.23,"text":"跟委員報告因為國發基金這筆這種國發基金目前不會說是直接拿給地方政府我們是主要是要主要是給企業而且是投資並不是補助如果地方政府要發展這一方面的專業但是呢這個地方政府呢他不能直接跟我們蘇發部跟國會申請那如果是企業他是一個"},{"start":936.87,"end":938.771,"text":"國發基金主要是依據產創條例只要符合上面的規定各別企業也可以來申請我們的資金對"},{"start":964.85,"end":993.884,"text":"所以我就說其實我們在評分的時候如果加上他跟地方政府合作可以前MOU可以增加他被我們核准的機會的話事實上地方政府他要發展會有角色否則你就看不到地方政府的角色我們可以看其實我們地方政府現在也很努力在招商我們可以看到那個輝達已經跟那個鴻海在我們高雄設台北灣所以那名字叫台北灣那是設在高雄那包括"},{"start":994.682,"end":1020.636,"text":"MD也要把研發中心進駐高雄所以我再一次的呼籲就是亞馬遜中央如果說有那個角度就是臺北當臺灣政治的首都高雄當臺灣AI的首都那現在高雄正好有這個條件不管是這一些科技大廠進駐那不管是我剛提到海南站我們希望說數化部可以盡快然後跟NCC能夠盡快把這個全世界你可以看新加坡那個網路"},{"start":1022.475,"end":1049.968,"text":"新加坡你看那個海底電纜那個多強啊真的是全世界海底電纜現在幾乎是第一強的大概是新加坡那我們台灣其實這是我們一個學習的方向所以從星達電廠這裡我們電也比其他地方好我們在這邊大廠也來了甚至高雄也不缺水整體上來高雄的環境都很好那包括這一陣子其實陳其邁市長也"},{"start":1050.387,"end":1050.607,"text":"委員．完整會議"},{"start":1080.839,"end":1108.548,"text":"世界很強的一個AI城市這個部分是不是 院長可以認同謝謝委員 報告委員包括城市長他一直是非常努力在招商在引資 在留財的地方首長那高雄找一個適當的地點讓海嵐上岸所以包括委員剛剛所提的興達港在內我們還有幾個地方在評估"},{"start":1109.349,"end":1137.763,"text":"那10月2號我們會邀集7家的廠商再進一步來演講如何把高雄打造一個更符合現在所謂南部S狼帶能夠發展的一個以高雄為中心向上發展的一個基地那這個部分是符合國家重大建設的謝謝院長我的意思是說AI其實在高雄應該就是中央部會能夠幫忙強化你可以看到AI三立就是人力 算力 應用力那我們的"},{"start":1139.961,"end":1141.93,"text":"電力水利是另外必須要的東西"},{"start":1144.022,"end":1168.903,"text":"海南站上來其實他需要的就是在包括我們的超級電腦我們的算力中心那這些其實也耗電那這些其實在我們高雄的條件比台北的北部的條件更適合很多所以現在就是幾個方面的條件將來我們希望說我們在這三例上面那能夠再加強那首先就是海南站上來再來就是資料中心跟超級電腦超級電腦現在也進來了"},{"start":1170.561,"end":1192.463,"text":"將來做整個AI的應用能夠在高雄發光發熱把高雄的經驗可以推到全台灣甚至可以跟全世界結合所以剛才這個方向希望說蘇發部國發會以及經濟部可以幫忙來協助最後一個就是亞洲資產管理中心這個金融特區跟家族辦公室事實上我也看到新加坡也做得還不錯"},{"start":1193.397,"end":1202.715,"text":"所以這個部分是不是有機會在高雄設置那甚至就是這個境外銀行等等的那高雄是一個這一部分是個處女地啦"},{"start":1203.402,"end":1227.017,"text":"但是你著眼到未來的整個AI的開發這個部分是不是高雄一個非常重要的方向是 跟委員報告一下我們在這次推動台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心的16項計畫裡面其中有一項就是希望在高雄在過去既有的基礎上面我們能夠建置一個資產管理的一個專區或是一個聚落一個園區所以現在這個方向沒有問題"},{"start":1227.937,"end":1254.188,"text":"我們已經在規劃的更細部的做法除了延續過去我們的既有的兩三年前會討論基礎以外我們最近還會把它加入有關私人銀行還有OPU還有一些其他的加入辦公室的機能在裡面這是以高雄為主這個非常重要所以這是包括AI的算力人力應用力整個軟體的發展的資源包括我們的"},{"start":1255.318,"end":1256.639,"text":"謝謝許思杰委員的質詢：謝謝卓院長的備詢："},{"start":1285.014,"end":1302.652,"text":"接下來我們請登記第19位黃建豪委員質詢好 謝謝大會主席我們請這個左院長麻煩再請左院長備詢"},{"start":1311.608,"end":1333.397,"text":"委員好 院長好 院長我想首先一開始也要跟大家關心上禮拜我們想這個司法院判決出來說這個死刑存廢的問題當然這個司法院雖然說死刑何限但是呢他有要求說這個各省級合議庭法官的意見必須一致我想這是這樣在這個判決裡面講說法院組織法"},{"start":1337.145,"end":1363.788,"text":"沒有明定要和議廷法官一致才可以判處死刑這件事情在違反了正當法律程序原則那我想問一下如果所有的法官在三省裡面所有的法官都要判決一致他才符合正當法律程序原則嗎是這樣嗎依照憲法法庭的解釋出來的文字看出來他有這樣的"},{"start":1365.268,"end":1366.448,"text":"施政院院長施政報告"},{"start":1391.918,"end":1408.148,"text":"相關機關兩年內要提出相關修法民調上看得很清楚84%的民眾是反對廢除死刑的如果相關機關要提出相關修法的話我想請問像行政院或法務部你們算不算相關機關"},{"start":1409.469,"end":1433.133,"text":"跟委員報告 一直覺得這個是屬於平易的審判的一個失誤這是規定在法院指示法所以相關機關應該有這個是屬於司法院主管的一個法規所以要有司法院來做一個主政所以到時候所謂的修法版本不會有你們院版的版本會有行政院的版本他那個修法後會選行政院"},{"start":1434.347,"end":1440.409,"text":"行政院會提出版本嗎還是全部都司法院來提那你法務部的立場是什麼你到時候一定會徵詢你們意見嗎因為我想這件事情提出來"},{"start":1459.179,"end":1483.262,"text":"雖然說這個時期是合憲的但其實本質上他就是實質廢死了那本席在這邊講啊這東西如果要送到立法院我要講一下你們是民選政府的官員我們是民意代表我們是投票投出來的這麼多民眾去反對這件事情我真的不知道到時候送進立法院裡面在委會審查也好在大院討論也好我們立法委員要怎麼去審這個法案"},{"start":1483.422,"end":1485.745,"text":"施法院等於這個判決等於凌駕立法院等於凌駕行政院的版本"},{"start":1499.376,"end":1517.783,"text":"報告委員我並不認為現在等於就是把它說成是實質廢死用四個字來形容它原則上它是有條件的合憲我們在這個有條件合憲的框架底下把一些程序讓它完備完備程序的目的在於不要造成冤枉的判決"},{"start":1518.743,"end":1534.473,"text":"但是我們在完備的過程當中我們可以對很多的過程比方說我們可以慎重對這些重大案件的各種事後的一些檢驗包括他是不是經過一定的鑑定這個鑑定的過程也要有"},{"start":1535.333,"end":1560.638,"text":"跟社會能夠非常的接受再來就是我們可以改變一下居禁的方式用終身居禁來取代無期徒刑那樣的這個方式這個是未來司法跟行政院當中乃至於跟立法院大院當中我們互相可以討論的很多的重點所以原則上我不認為這就是實質廢棄有條件我們會把條件當成更合理化市政的立場一直覺得說要跟民眾跟立法院來溝通我就看看這兩年"},{"start":1562.418,"end":1586.963,"text":"到底要怎麼樣溝通才能讓民眾接受這樣子要立審一致決的這個版本另外我要提醒一件事情如果立審一致決才能夠符合所謂的這個正當法律程序原則的話那是不是其他的行者其他的法律相關的法律不是只有死刑那竊盜呢強盜呢這些東西是不是立審都要一致他才符合正當法律程序原則"},{"start":1588.939,"end":1594.644,"text":"委員提到這是屬於私體面的問題正當法律程序是要在刑訴訴訟法做一個規範所以"},{"start":1599.264,"end":1628.742,"text":"對於強盜或其他的刑事罪者是不是也都要立審都要一致他才能夠符合如果今天那個判處死刑罪那個最嚴重的那個罪行如果說法院要判處死刑的話那根據憲法法庭憲判第8號的一個規定一個判決的意旨這個是要一致決他這個是屬於從一審二審到最高法院的那個都要所有的法官何一庭的法官都要做一致決才能判處死刑"},{"start":1629.263,"end":1633.719,"text":"好 部長那還有個意見嘛那其實過去我們都知道說法院的三級三審是"},{"start":1635.25,"end":1660.729,"text":"如果今天地方法院一審裡面光是一審裡面法官就覺得不需要的時候那他上訴到後面二審、三審之後那你等於剝奪了二審、三審的權利啦過去二審、三審可能跟一審有不一樣的結果那如果今天一審裡面就已經有說有法官不認為他被判處死刑是合理的如果有法官就覺得他不該被判處死刑那所以後面的二審、三審等於也被限制的相關權利了嘛"},{"start":1663.223,"end":1685.985,"text":"這部份檢察官收到判決﹖會斟酌來做一個上訴不是 部長我請教一下專業問題如果今天一審有法官說認為這個罪犯他不能判處死刑所以一審的法官已經有這樣子的見解了那二審三審的法官他即便覺得他有判處死刑的必要性是不是也無解"},{"start":1687.518,"end":1703.115,"text":"這個沒有這個問題啊這個一審的話如果說他應該判死刑沒有判死刑的話我想這個檢察官會請求上訴或被害人家屬會請求檢察官來做一個上訴我們會審酌那個檢察會審酌那個判決法官判決良形是否妥適"},{"start":1703.908,"end":1711.937,"text":"所以你的立審一致決的這個部分是從一審裡面的法官到三審的法官都一致嗎?還是不是?三級三審繼續維持嗎?對啊,我就說要一致決"},{"start":1721.045,"end":1747.658,"text":"所以如果在地方法院在第一審的時候他就已經判決說不任務就是他已經沒有死刑有法官決定他不該判處死刑那到了檢察官如果覺得因為過去是這樣嘛過去檢察官如果覺得這個人罪行重大但是在地方法院如果沒有判處他死刑所以上訴到這高院高院如果能夠判處他死刑那是不是就有這個死刑的問題那如果現在地方法院第一審的時候就沒有判處死刑了"},{"start":1748.829,"end":1774.525,"text":"檢察官即便上訴了到二審之後二審的法官也不能推翻一審這件事情吧這個不一定要看個案他那個做一審的話應該一致那個一致決是要判死刑才有一致決的一個問題如果不是判死刑就沒有一致決的一個問題就譬如說一個最終的一個犯刑如果說一審的法院是判無期徒刑如果說檢察不服或被害人的家屬或被家屬會請求檢案來上訴那個上訴到二審"},{"start":1775.345,"end":1804.816,"text":"那當然以現判第80號的一個判決的意思那二審的話要判死刑還要一致決所以何以廷的三個法官都要都要認為就是要判死刑這才會這個當我確認這個東西我想民眾都非常關心啦我才利用這麼多時間來跟你們就教我想這個我們大家都很關心那個法務部也是非常關心這件事情二審如果說要三個二審的何以廷法官如果都決定要判處死刑如果啦假設某個個案是這樣子"},{"start":1805.902,"end":1826.812,"text":"但是一審的時候還沒有被判處執行這件事情到底是有還是沒有他這樣有沒有能不能被執行事務上會有這種情形那個二審的話如果說認為一審的判決是並未妥適或違法的話二審可以改判二審可以改判嗎可以改判所以他的所謂的立審一次決就不存在了嗎"},{"start":1830.994,"end":1852.959,"text":"這個都要規定是要一字決才能判死刑啊但是如果說一字決他不判死刑的話我們還是可以上訴啊這個二審也是可以做一字決可以判死刑啊所以二審一字決如果判死刑就是可以判死刑跟一審無關不是因為不符一審的才有上訴到二審嘛二審審核如果一審的原來的判決是不非合法妥適"},{"start":1854.056,"end":1879.642,"text":"他這樣的話可以改判為實行只要一致決議可以改判為實行好 部長謝謝那我們後面繼續來討論這個問題謝謝部長委員的意思是說一二三審都要一致決對啊判時都要一致決那這個說法是不是在判事第8號這個解釋文上面引申我這樣的說法我認為一定會引起很多的討論的那我們再看看很多的法律專家所以這個說法並不一定是正確並不一定是照他自認這樣的說法一定會引起討論的修法還會再修吧好 謝謝"},{"start":1883.442,"end":1884.664,"text":"那接下來談論一下地方建設部長謝謝"},{"start":1887.13,"end":1913.338,"text":"我想我們也有關注我們行政院這個新任部長陳志凱部長的臉書我看到他前兩天發了一個這個reel講到說這個響應世界無車日呼籲民眾我剛剛有個截圖我有截到呼籲民眾來乘坐公共運輸那剛好他所在的位置在台北捷運的藍線那剛好我想明年的預算裡面也編列了台中捷運的藍線我想部長也出生在台中也很清楚知道"},{"start":1914.238,"end":1942.334,"text":"今天如果身為一個臺中市民他想要響應這個部長的呼籲響應我們院長的呼籲來響應這個世界無車日但卻只有一條捷運可以搭乘的話我想這個就很難去達到這個目標所以今天提到說我想翻到下一頁臺中市的整體捷運路網裡面先講這個捷運藍線當然預計明年要來動工但是我看目前送進來的這個院板的預算那當然現在程序委員會被退回但是目前的版本"},{"start":1943.422,"end":1943.462,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":1968.425,"end":1984.17,"text":"報告委員藍線的部分目前正在細部計畫的過程當中明年的預算的部分因為現在正在用地取得的部分用地取得本來就是地方政府會多一些所以它撥了八十幾億中央目前是只有五億"},{"start":1984.77,"end":1988.913,"text":"中央該補助的金額絕對會到照當時我們大家討論好的那個金額下去補助這個比例上都沒有問題"},{"start":2000.418,"end":2023.357,"text":"好 謝謝再來院長我要就叫一樣臺中捷運我想部長繼續留著跟這個捷運有關係剛剛上面這個章化的黃議員也有質詢過相關的議題就捷運綠線延伸線的問題我想這卡到所謂的章東都市計劃區那我想這個之前有提到說章東都市計劃區只要有審定那中期的綠線的綜合規劃就能夠抱怨來做相關的審查"},{"start":2024.88,"end":2044.013,"text":"中間捷運綠線的部分往北是在我的選區在大坑往南是你以前部長以前的選區烏日到黃秀芳委員的選區到彰化等等的在這整條要做因為會卡到所謂的彰東都市計畫所以本期要問的是說有沒有解套的空間有沒有機會"},{"start":2045.134,"end":2066.71,"text":"是分段通車的方式來執行因為我想北段這邊基本上沒有太大問題他就是很簡單的一個2點多公里的延伸線南段因為涉及到所謂都市計劃的問題那如果都市計劃因為江東都市計劃就如同剛剛前面黃秀芳委員所說的他從議員當到委員了這次自己還沒有成案"},{"start":2067.31,"end":2088.275,"text":"同樣問題捷運綠線延伸從我當議員到我現在當委員也是一樣看到那個建物的預留線留在那邊但是一直沒有什麼新的進度所以本席今天要問的是說捷運綠線延伸這件事情會因為張東都是計畫而卡關嗎還是有其他的方式可以讓他部分的分階段來通車過去有沒有其他的捷運可以這樣做"},{"start":2091.898,"end":2109.134,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個部分因為我知道臺中市這邊這一端大家希望說這個延伸北屯大坑的這一條線速度可以快一些但是因為往南往彰化那邊還有都市計畫的問題所以速度可能會緩一些慢一些"},{"start":2109.754,"end":2127.546,"text":"目前因為這條線的延伸正在綜合規劃的過程當中其實我們可以協助地方政府大家一起來討論一下有沒有可能分段來研究分段來研究也就是說我們大坑段的部分的綜合規劃是不是我們走快一點可不可以分段來處理這個部分我們會來協助地方政府大家一起來討論看看"},{"start":2128.707,"end":2129.168,"text":"臺中捷運目前虧損狀態"},{"start":2145.79,"end":2164.732,"text":"解運虧損從以前的臺北解運以前的高雄解運大家都經歷過這段時間為什麼就是因為解運那時候就一條的時候它一定會虧損因為沒有人流嘛那今天我們希望入網能夠形成那今天明年來講解運藍線即將動工那台中的解運坦白講全國第二大城它的進度的確比其他城市慢了非常多"},{"start":2165.333,"end":2194.394,"text":"所以我想問一下我們這個行政院這邊到底對於未來我們捷運包含說局線連結到中科連結到台中車站還有捷運有一條紅線整個崇德路這一條很重要的紅線因為我知道紅線目前本來預計10年後才會開始評估那我們也有爭取我想交通部也支持行政院也支持希望讓這個捷運紅線能夠提早開始規劃我想問一下這兩個案子局線跟紅線有沒有機會加速的來趕快來執行"},{"start":2197.37,"end":2225.392,"text":"跟委員報告目前局限我們正在可行性評估當中那這個部分就由市政府這邊他速度加快我們這邊也會來協助這個沒有問題我希望可行性研究的部分走快一點那另外一個部分您所提到的紅線也就是臺中的崇德一直到豐原的這一段那這一段確實現在的車流量非常的大那也因為您的爭取跟地方政府的爭取我們目前針對可行性研究的部分中央已經會盡量來提供協助跟補助"},{"start":2226.052,"end":2245.302,"text":"好 謝謝我們交通部的再次想感謝我們院長跟交通部這個臺中捷運真的非常重要要不然其實第二大城一直沒有捷運這件事情其實是很荒謬的事情所以要拜託這個中央權力的支持因為經費上面跟文書作業上各種的審查作業我們都希望能夠減短一點可以不可以"},{"start":2247.352,"end":2247.372,"text":"院長謝謝"},{"start":2271.759,"end":2295.337,"text":"這過去有會勘過啦就是我們國立自然科學博物館的設備的更新經費我講科博館這個已經成立了快要40年了比我年紀還大我也在這邊當過志工啊我講科博館是臺中的很重要的一個場館也是全國來講很重要場館在統計上面來講他是全國第2 觀光人數道館人數第2名的這個博物館但他的經費他的這個設備的確我講的這個比較可憐一點的事情"},{"start":2300.117,"end":2314.439,"text":"我高中的時候16歲17歲的時候去當他的志工我跟院長報告如果今天你來台中科普館再參訪我還可以辦導覽因為沒有什麼改變啊那種基本上一樣20年前的事情"},{"start":2315.413,"end":2344.411,"text":"那更不用講從以前到現在這個場館基本上沒有太大的更新所以這個當然相關計畫後續科目館他們應該也會報教育部也會報但是我要講的是我們今年其實有去會館有幾個比較重點的部分因為是有會議紀錄的會議紀錄沒有提到說包含說這個太空劇場太空劇場這個東西在幾十年前科目館剛落成的時候剛弄起來這個球型的所謂的這個劇場哇 那時候很先進啊"},{"start":2345.256,"end":2356.216,"text":"三十幾年前非常先進那時候還沒有IMAX那時候的科普館是非常先進的地方但是如果現在再去同樣的這個所謂太空劇場去看他的這個影像"},{"start":2357.245,"end":2366.773,"text":"這就有480P而已啊但我們現在都進入4K階段了結果他的影像還是這樣子沒有更新到所以那時候我們去會刊的時候當時這個會刊記錄有講說要試113年經費節約情形或最遲納入114年的預算來調配處理"},{"start":2375.501,"end":2375.521,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":2391.616,"end":2409.401,"text":"甚至我們講科博館一年去看所謂太空劇場的人數大概24萬25萬人平均票價一張100元所以基本上你投資一個這個場館的這個費用2000多萬政府投資下去很快就能夠從觀光客從民眾從各界來的這個遊覽人士裡面來把它回收"},{"start":2410.342,"end":2420.915,"text":"這對政府來講應該不是一個太龐大的經費各方這是有會議紀錄也承諾要幫我們更新的但為什麼在明年預算裡面沒有看到相關的進度院長怎麼辦"},{"start":2423.075,"end":2448.925,"text":"我也同意我們包括自然科學在內日新月異的進步我們給國人或是給下一代年輕朋友應該有一個符合現代台灣在這個學科上面應該有的一個呈現那或許是沒有提到地方進行的需求那如果我們進一步的來請教委員或是地方政府或是其他的地方如果在往後的年度可以把它納進去一個計畫的話那我們應該可以審慎的來評估"},{"start":2451.414,"end":2466.746,"text":"沒有啦 院長你不能往後年度啦這個是會議紀錄我再給你報告一下這個是官方會議回來不是我們服務處做的喔我們服務處做的更細但是官方提供的會議紀錄裡面已經提了理論上今年113年度有結預款就可以拿來用或是最遲"},{"start":2467.606,"end":2468.407,"text":"教育部有沒有什麼計畫"},{"start":2483.291,"end":2502.861,"text":"跟委員報告,非常感謝委員關心科博館的所有的工程,包括展示上的工程的改善。確實我們在112年已經有先給科博館有一個先期的規劃會,"},{"start":2504.962,"end":2516.628,"text":"當時也有關污水納管的工程跟太空劇場的這些雷射投影機的一個計畫確實當時也說在今年我們在汛期過後如果這個經費上能夠有剩餘的經費我們會優先來支持"},{"start":2523.931,"end":2546.088,"text":"那另外也跟委員報告科博館目前它本身這個基金的一個剩餘也有1億3千多萬所以當時我們也跟交館長說假設有急迫性你就先在現有的基金裡面先處理那至於這一個有關蓋新的一個大樓總共要大概我今天沒有提蓋新大樓"},{"start":2547.065,"end":2550.289,"text":"該新建的大樓將近要50億我們已經先給規劃會了在去年就先給規劃會那今年在考慮在迅期之後我們也會"},{"start":2565.949,"end":2588.13,"text":"這一個有關污水跟太空機場的這一個部分的一個改善我們也同意在信息的經費節餘我們會優先來補助那如果在時間上交館長他認為應該優先處理我們也同意他這一個在現有的一個基金裡邊有還有一億三千多萬他可以優先來做處理"},{"start":2588.47,"end":2610.781,"text":"我想這個不是單一館長或單一場館的問題啦我今天會在這邊提如果今天只是一個場館問題我們就私下寫一條會就好今天特別提出來跟院長講就是因為今天這個是官方的會議紀錄有講了明確的講了要列入最遲114年教育部的預算裡面"},{"start":2612.092,"end":2624.001,"text":"結果卻沒有列入那我是說這樣的承諾這樣子會議記錄不就等於無效了嗎那如果以後都這樣子做的話那立法委員跟行政部門之間要怎麼樣互信要怎麼樣去溝通要怎麼樣去協調"},{"start":2625.458,"end":2652.147,"text":"今天是白紙黑字寫的不是空口說白話 大家好好好基本上講一講就沒事了今天是有官方會議紀錄的東西那如果今天剛剛你提到的這個什麼場館50億那個東西我知道所以我也沒在這邊提因為那個是長期計畫今天是簡短的 簡單的國家預算三兆多裡面這個攸關國家科學發展一個場館也就是兩千多萬頂多四千萬不同計畫裡面今天一個設備兩千多萬拿不出來"},{"start":2653.107,"end":2676.162,"text":"這還是政府承諾要給的為什麼會沒有呢報告委員剛剛部長所說這個自然科學博物館現在有1億多的剩餘館那館長他已經部長有指示他如果有進擊需要就這個部分來使用我想不管是教育部院裡面我們都同意也支持這樣的使用好 議長謝謝部長謝謝接下來我想下個月是國慶日"},{"start":2681.994,"end":2703.152,"text":"我想這提到國慶喔我想最近大家常常暑假期間﹖很多委員都訪美我也跟院長﹖跟大院來分享在去訪美之後看到一個景象就是呢他們真的家家戶戶﹖很多企業也好﹖民間也好真的四處都會輕易的見到他們美國的國情那這個場景在台灣相對來講會比較少見一點"},{"start":2704.753,"end":2726.22,"text":"國慶 國慶 國慶 國慶"},{"start":2726.44,"end":2750.737,"text":"當然相關的這個法令有要求啦這個紀念日節日實施辦法國家紀念日是要來在中央機關在機關裡面來懸掛國旗但是並沒有去鼓勵民間來懸掛國旗所以我今天特別提出來是希望說向院長提出建議是不是能夠獎勵或補助民眾在特定的節日或是什麼國旗日或國慶日等等的來購買或者你就乾脆送大家去掛國旗嘛"},{"start":2751.581,"end":2781.051,"text":"院長你覺得這有可能嗎謝謝委員雖然我認為國旗重要是掛在心中但是能夠掛在路面上過幾天你就會看到整個凱道都會有很多的國旗總統府也開始布置了每個人讓自己對愛國心的表達會有不同的方式我們都予以尊重那懸掛國旗當然也是一種就像我們在奧運的時候我們雖然看到的是我們的會旗但是唱起國旗歌大家還是非常澎湃像我也把國旗放在手錶上這個也是一種表示你也看到"},{"start":2781.911,"end":2807.021,"text":"謝謝 謝謝院長我想這個還是要提一下這個最近用者名叫做認知作戰認知作戰對內也很重要就讓民眾認知到我們是這個中華民國我們對外團結一致所以這個平常就要建立起來這也是我去這個暑假期間訪美的時候特別看到他們國家甚至跟他們政治部聊天他們也講平常就要建立起這樣的文化"},{"start":2808.103,"end":2809.804,"text":"凡事有助於國人團結以國家為最終目標的這種團結任何的表現的形式我都認為是好的"},{"start":2829.218,"end":2839.661,"text":"不僅是尊重如果大家有好的意見我們都可以共同來討論也支持好 院長謝謝那接下來現在沒有多少時間了我延續上一次的這個質詢有提到所謂外籍勞工的問題"},{"start":2841.411,"end":2871.151,"text":"在上次7月9號的時候我們跟院長總質詢的時候也提到下半年會來討論開放所謂外籍家庭幫傭的議題那院長也提到說營造更好的帶小孩的環境讓女性能夠重新參與勞動市場絕對是對生育率有所幫助那所以本國目前是這個三名60歲以下才能申請這個家庭幫傭比較嚴下半年要來檢討那這個部長也提到下半年要來檢討那我想已經下半年了已經即將第四季啦"},{"start":2876.475,"end":2898.234,"text":"請部長跟委員說明我們之間討論的過程跟現在的想法跟委員報告 院長一直非常關心然後也一直指示我們要針對您的這個提議要來研究那麼先跟您報告我們初步先使用我們先進行我們的多元陪伴服務方案的處理現在我們已經"},{"start":2899.294,"end":2925.204,"text":"進入這個正式的把多元陪伴服務反而就是所謂的終點移工我們甚至已經把這個具體的那個時程都訂出來了大概在今年11月底我們就可以提供服務了那我們是不是先就這個方案來先做一個試辦之後呢我們會在下半年我們看這個方案進行的情況如何因為其實這個方案其實也有點類似"},{"start":2926.624,"end":2952.952,"text":"可以類似就是像家庭幫傭這樣的功能對於顧老跟顧小都可以cover而且是沒有這一個服務對象的這個資格的設限的所以是不是可以允許我們把這個事辦方案我們看成效如何如果可以的話也許我們逐步來推動委員所提的建議這樣子部長謝謝因為其實這個提出來最主要就是希望"},{"start":2953.852,"end":2967.162,"text":"因為今天少子化我想今年是農年大家看到數據也很驚訝就是說過往少子化理論上不是少子化農年的生育率理論上會反彈一下下再往下跌但是今年完全沒有看到這狀況所以這個"},{"start":2969.364,"end":2987.823,"text":"少子化是一個非常嚴肅的議題那少子化當然很多原因那其中一個最重要的就是現代的雙薪家庭的問題嘛我今天之所以提出來這個外籍幫優放寬的原因就第一個我國的這個所謂的白領的外籍這個這些這個高階白領階級他們是可以直接看薪水來決定"},{"start":2989.024,"end":3014.222,"text":"放寬他們去請這個所謂外籍的幫友但是本國籍的是要就像我提到的你必須要有3個6歲以下的孩童你才能夠去請我想這個對比落差非常大那正常現在多數的家庭誰家裡會有3個6歲以下的孩童根本就不可能那不可能的情況下這個法規就形成劇文嘛那我們當然希望說能夠讓雙薪家庭因為現在基本上都是雙薪家庭"},{"start":3014.662,"end":3027.745,"text":"他除了上班之外回來他能夠鬆開他的雙手他可以不用去背這些書房他可以多背他的小孩甚至陪他上學等等的所以我們才希望說這個方向能夠往這方向去走好不好 院長跟部長"},{"start":3029.189,"end":3031.229,"text":"最後剩下一分鐘我來跟大家討論一下我們社會主宰的問題"},{"start":3052.216,"end":3078.646,"text":"先看這個數字啊5月31號的時候目標還是12萬6869到8月31不知道為什麼只剩下12萬1938有五千會不見當然細節我們沒辦法跟討論了因為時間不夠但是這個數字我想讓院長看到一下就為什麼我們的社會住宅的這個數字降低反而降低了那另外我想今天稍早其他委員有關心社宅政策有提到所謂住宅基金的問題那當時候大家講說這個"},{"start":3082.084,"end":3107.835,"text":"社會住宅跟租金補貼彼此之間不衝突但是我們細究一下所謂住宅基金的數字在明年度的預算裡面社宅在住宅基金裡面只有38億7千萬左右大概40億到包租代管50億租金補貼350億換句話說租房這件事情包租代管加租金補貼就佔了400億那你社宅只花了38億"},{"start":3109.437,"end":3129.986,"text":"所以我想這個數字來講的話其實對於整個這個百萬社宅計畫你等於是拿那個租屋的補貼的計畫來填充啊好 謝謝 謝謝黃建豪委員的質詢謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第20號陳素月委員請質詢"},{"start":3162.281,"end":3162.581,"text":"陳委員好"},{"start":3177.83,"end":3200.503,"text":"主委長午安辛苦了不會我們知道這個就是農業可以說是國家一個很重要的部分那彰化縣是農業也是工業的農工混合大縣那在南彰化也是重要的一個農業生產區那目前因為就是國土計畫法就是實施在即"},{"start":3201.423,"end":3229.516,"text":"因為在2015年12月18號在立法院完成刪讀之後一直到2016年5月1號在馬英九總統任內即將卸任之前來公告要施行那目前就是要一直按照這個時程在進行當中那隨著這個要實施的這個時間的一個逼近那在地方真的也越來越多人在討論關注這個議題尤其是很多我們就是農業地區的一些農民"},{"start":3230.897,"end":3251.861,"text":"因為他們對於他們的農地﹐他們的土地﹐他們的非常的關心因為相信大家都聽過一句話因為以前老一輩的人都說有土思有財所以這個土地對農民來說真的是他們要就是非常在意捍衛的一個要項所以現在這地方都在"},{"start":3252.581,"end":3267.367,"text":"封傳說這個國土計劃法若實施之後 農地就要被判死刑了然後農民就永無翻身之日了所以對這樣子的一個說法 我不曉得我們行政部門有什麼可以去澄清的"},{"start":3272.433,"end":3288.771,"text":"請陳部長說明我跟委員說明其實國土計畫裡面針對農業發展區的部分其實我們都有一個共通的目的就是為了農序永續發展這是非常重要的而且不會讓過往的土地的破碎化而造成更嚴重的一個生態的影響"},{"start":3289.512,"end":3289.913,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":3303.055,"end":3327.083,"text":"以農業部的一個立場他們這樣子的一個不同的考量是可以持續做溝通的因為畫社有畫社的原則但是也會依據縣市政府當地所在的產業的需求而調整但是非常重要就是中央跟地方一定會互相去做後續的溝通跟討論這是非常重要的那第三個部分要跟委員說明的就是"},{"start":3328.104,"end":3346.937,"text":"農業部針對整個農地農用的部分來講是完全沒有影響你只要農地從事農用的部分完全沒有影響那農業部也會持續的針對配合整個國家的希望工程裡面我們會發展以農村為發展中心的一個永續的支持系統"},{"start":3348.078,"end":3367.296,"text":"這個支持系統就是我們看農地絕對不能是看農一農二因為農業不只是生產 農業還有很多的農村的一個生活這個部分我想我們會持續的去規劃跟執行它不會因為國土計畫的一個如期實施或延後而改變以上"},{"start":3368.413,"end":3383.514,"text":"我們從《國土計畫法》立法的要旨有提到為了因應氣候變遷確保國土安全保育自然環境與人文資產促進資源與產業合理配置強化國土整合管理機制"},{"start":3384.815,"end":3405.79,"text":"並賦予環境敏感與國土破壞地區﹐追求國家永續發展以這樣的一個立法的目的當然我們都贊成可是我想請教一下院長就是國土計畫法真的實施之後就是可以達到這樣的一個理想的境界嗎就是可以解決目前的這個農地面臨的問題的一個萬靈丹嗎"},{"start":3410.495,"end":3424.887,"text":"依照剛剛委員所列的施政表國土激發法在公告立法的時候我認為還是會站在一個以國家土地永續利用的這種方式來保存最好的農地的方向來進展"},{"start":3425.848,"end":3440.587,"text":"但是現在看起來很多國人或是農民對他裡面的一些文字等等的解釋都會產生疑慮那這個部分內政部也好農業部也好這期間以來實際上非常積極的在做溝通跟說明"},{"start":3441.047,"end":3441.067,"text":"國務院議員"},{"start":3464.585,"end":3483.119,"text":"當然這是一個問題可是我們就是說就目前已經送出來的就是說或者是已經有草案的這些資料來看我們看出來就是說國土計畫的實施號稱說未來希望就是讓這個農地種量不變就是要追求國家的永續一個發展"},{"start":3483.579,"end":3483.659,"text":"此外﹐"},{"start":3500.979,"end":3527.54,"text":"我們也看到有一個縣市它針對這個水庫的這個區域它原本目前是屬於山坡地的保育區可是它如果在國土計畫法調整之後它反而變成龍山是可以開發的這樣不是也是違背了我們要追求國土保育的一個要旨嗎所以這個目前就是說我們看到很多存在一些矛盾所以當然會引起民眾的疑慮"},{"start":3528.16,"end":3555.256,"text":"那也讓很多有心人士來見縫插針所以就造成地方的紛紛擾擾 民心不安所以我覺得說 如果一個政策沒有辦法說服民眾 說服農民而且這個政策如果說實施之後沒有辦法比以前的這個政策更好的話我們是不是要先緩一緩來在審慎的一個評估之後再來實施 院長請你內政部回答"},{"start":3556.676,"end":3577.902,"text":"謝謝委員 非常關心農業跟農民的權益我們知道說這個國土計畫法他是在明年的時候要所謂的一併公告目前13個縣市送上來表示13個縣市他們在有關於國土計畫的功能分區上面他們願意跟中央政府來多做溝通委員所關心比較多是在於農地方面的處理"},{"start":3578.622,"end":3602.618,"text":"目前為止 農地的處理還有農業本身的發展在我們的檢討當中我們認為應該把鄉村規劃或是跟農業發展好好的把它劃到我們的國土計劃裡面同時針對已經送上來的13個縣市政府裡面我們也認為說他們有討論的空間委員所提到說也許有某一個什麼水庫區域裡面它可能在劃地上面有問題事實上"},{"start":3603.959,"end":3632.177,"text":"在國土計劃法徵政開始實施第11年也就是115年之後我們會有國土的永續發展基金大概目前編列是以500億的方式來解決有關這個環境敏感地區裡面如果碰到國土富裕的時候必須要做其他的補償或其他的相對的對立的措施所以不管是說因應氣候變遷或者是環境保育我們其實一步一步往前走但是對於有關於農地的劃分的部分的話就會像這個委員所說的部分"},{"start":3632.577,"end":3657.379,"text":"我們現在對於農一農二總共的總量的管制其實要各個縣市地方政府願意坐下來跟農業部或是跟內政部一起來討論才有一個發展的方向所以委員跟很多其他關心的委員所開的這個記者會我們是一個字一個字在評估當中如果認為《國土計畫法》有修正的必要的話我們願意從善如流但是所謂的展言的部分並沒有完全解決問題"},{"start":3658.74,"end":3682.43,"text":"展言的話你沒有辦法對已經繳交國土功能分區表的縣市表示說這個展言對他們有任何其他繼續往前走的部分所以我們在想說有沒有什麼樣的方式讓縣市地方政府在處理相關的這個農地或是其他的土地城鄉發展的區域劃分的時候可以繼續跟中央政府保持溝通但是這樣子的一個國土功能分區的部分就是不要停"},{"start":3683.43,"end":3685.51,"text":"謝謝部長那因為我們就是說在這個國土計畫法目前在就是進行的當中我們就是就如同我剛剛所舉的兩個點就是我們可以看得出來"},{"start":3711.036,"end":3711.136,"text":"﹚國土計劃法﹚"},{"start":3741.053,"end":3755.327,"text":"我來請教一下有關龍筍的部分在這次7月下旬有關楷米颱風造成我們全國從北到南很多的災害包括不管是淹水也好或是農業的損失"},{"start":3759.826,"end":3774.959,"text":"當時總統跟院長都有馬上去勘栽而且都馬上對外宣誓說對農業的施的現金救助部分要重塑、重寬、重減可是目前已經過了一個多月快兩個月了目前很多的農民他們都還沒有收到"},{"start":3775.379,"end":3776.379,"text":"請部長關心一下"},{"start":3804.082,"end":3826.349,"text":"我先跟委員說明就是在那個堪比颱風來的時候其實我們做的幾件事情是比過往更快速的就是過往都是地方去勘察以後報到中央以後再公告那這一次我們是由中央的同仁跟地方一起地方看了以後就主動公告那那個時間大概省了7天到10天這個過程"},{"start":3829.75,"end":3856.536,"text":"公告以後本身的因為還是要回到公所去審查那有一部分是免現刊的我們認為他的災情如果有普遍性而且有一致性的時候我們就會公告為免現刊那免現刊的話就不用去現場看你只要有這個耕作的事實那這個部分也重述了那唯一比較麻煩的就是因為這一次的那個品項比較多公所還是要在現場去看"},{"start":3858.196,"end":3882.106,"text":"現場看了以後還要獻福還要復刊復刊完了以後才報農業部那農業部7天之內一定會付款所以現在這個後面的部分我們會在那裏努力後續看用怎麼樣的方式來教訓接下來就是這個農損部分就是拜託部長這邊能夠多加關心讓農民真的可以感受到我們政府對他們照顧的一個心意"},{"start":3883.107,"end":3898.11,"text":"另外一個問題我想請問一下有關這個流浪犬的問題就是在我的選區在彰化縣這個流浪犬的數字真的很高那在二水就是有這個愛護動物的善心人士他主動的來提供"},{"start":3899.251,"end":3915.11,"text":"來協助做流浪犬的收容進行結紮再回放因為它利用的土地是在林務局的土地目前林務局本來要跟它開罰目前是沒有開單可是要求它要移除"},{"start":3915.57,"end":3943.693,"text":"可是我覺得這個不是他個人的問題因為他也是做義務性的所以這個應該是整個公部門要來解決的問題如果說他今天他也撒手不管的時候那整個市變成風博廣場風博嶺這個風景區就是都是流浪犬在那邊亂竄對旅客 遊客也是一個很大的一個威脅所以我們希望就是說在這個流浪犬的一個安置因為我們知道當然就是說目前一個時代的進步我們都"},{"start":3944.053,"end":3947.595,"text":"最後一個問題我們知道就是說在最近兩年因為"},{"start":3969.026,"end":3969.127,"text":"主席"},{"start":3985.529,"end":3985.71,"text":"主席"},{"start":4004.204,"end":4025.647,"text":"所得到訊息就是中午回辦公室的時候那檢調單位針對雞蛋的部分有來請續場會的同仁跟相關的本會的同仁到那個應該是檢調單位那邊去做一些詢問跟約談那至於說到底是什麼樣的方式我想因為正常不公開的方式我不便說明"},{"start":4027.146,"end":4054.137,"text":"對當然我們尊重偵查部公開當然就是說這個農業部真的是責任重大因為就是關心著這個民生的議題不管是農民的這個農業的生產或者是畜牧業等等真的這個面向非常的廣尤其是面對目前面臨這個極端氣候的一個威脅那真的是我們要做的事情非常的多那我們也希望我們的陳部長要加油"},{"start":4055.077,"end":4056.418,"text":"陳素月委員的質詢 也謝謝卓院長的備詢"},{"start":4076.96,"end":4091.535,"text":"報告委員會 我們本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢我們非常謝謝卓院長 曾副院長以及各部會首長列席的答詢先來做以下決定 下次會議繼續進行施政報告之質詢我們先來散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","委員發言時間":"16:10:00 - 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因為還有一段整修的時間"},{"start":1919.722,"end":1935.599,"text":"我一直到了6月的中旬之後才陸續有在官邸使用 開一些跟部長的會議我個人一直到6月底或7月初 詳細日子我忘記了6月底或7月初我會每個禮拜使用兩天"},{"start":1936.4,"end":1939.743,"text":"博帝你碰喜在關底的時間應該沒那麼多阿沒有沒有像我們前陣子嘉義發生公災"},{"start":1962.864,"end":1967.247,"text":"陳建仁院長同樣時間的電費人家少了你50%你用了2萬度15萬人民的納稅錢這是一個很重要的對比所以現在兩個問題要解決"},{"start":1990.694,"end":1991.175,"text":"施政報告"},{"start":2010.418,"end":2010.558,"text":"施政報告"},{"start":2031.631,"end":2057.354,"text":"陳建仁陳院長同樣是院長的官邸做對比同樣的時間點你多出人家50%欸這個趕快去改好不好你剛講就是說你要去查嘛對不對對要查那更重要的更重要的人民的觀感就會很不好的嘛所以要怎麼去把這個墊節省下來好不好你要趕快去做這件事情4到6月啊我使用的時間非常短他也是增加了3700度左右6到8月"},{"start":2058.001,"end":2078.195,"text":"我有比較多一點的使用他增加了3900度我覺得這個數字都非常的異常都非常的異常其實不是跟你行政院院長的這個官邸出問題而已啦我給他看一下你知道今年中央部會一共花了多少的人民納稅錢嗎幫你們付電費嗎今年喔40億更離譜的"},{"start":2086.516,"end":2096.687,"text":"我們送來的遺産書裡面我們一本一本去翻明年的中央政府竟然要用到101億暴增了25億"},{"start":2100.922,"end":2111.469,"text":"現在不是只有你單純你自己的官邸用太多多了50%出來喔明年竟然一下子用到一百零億人民的納稅錢暴增了25%這個兩個部分跟委員解釋111年我們電費漲了8.4%112年跟113年各漲了11%左右所以加起來這三年的30%"},{"start":2123.918,"end":2150.907,"text":"過去的預算都沒有反映在預算裡面我們這次把它編了這是第一部分第二部分過去台電吸收以前都沒漲的現在一次把它漲足喔議員長以前為什麼沒有漲就是人民不能這麼苦店家不能這麼苦所以你才會不要漲這麼多嘛你現在變成說一次以前都沒漲的把盈利全部抹掉然後再一次要不要編足是沒漲是以前漲價之後都是吸收都沒有編漲價的費用那第二點我們現在"},{"start":2154.049,"end":2168.56,"text":"臺電不再負擔這麼多的政策吸收所以回歸到教育部衛福部等等部會首長部會單位他們就目的事業主管機關編自己的預算來支應電費所以回到部會裡面來所以雙重的因素之下"},{"start":2169.343,"end":2169.764,"text":"電費的這個編列是比較多的"},{"start":2184.537,"end":2193.885,"text":"人民已經很苦阿很多店家跟產業已經很苦阿所以才不能漲那麼多嘛以前不能漲現在就不能漲對不對而且你把以前沒有漲的全部放在這一次人民受得了嗎電費已經漲了但是過去3年電費都沒有反映在預算裡面"},{"start":2207.197,"end":2209.018,"text":"所以這個預算我們一定會延審好不好"},{"start":2235.66,"end":2243.015,"text":"我更期待了現在總預算退回去嘛我覺得院長你可以去想一想真的嘛以前沒有漲的全部在才一年裡面你要增加25%增加21億"},{"start":2245.792,"end":2249.216,"text":"是不是讓請委員在審查預算的時候實質討論我們希望部會首長跟部會的官員都能夠向大院來清楚說明"},{"start":2269.226,"end":2283.266,"text":"好啦我很期待啦很期待你是透過這次總預算退回去程序委員會不只是原住民的那個進法那個補償包括我們農民的公糧這個收購欸明年的總預算增加4000億欸"},{"start":2286.629,"end":2311.108,"text":"那個原住民那個預算才多少21億我們公糧收過一年也60億那個都是零頭你要照顧原住民不照顧要照顧農民不照顧一定要增加4000億為什麼現在有機會退回去城區委員我拜託拜託院長重新想一下一個是電費不要多這麼多這是要調整的第二個怎麼照顧我們原住民怎麼照顧農民想一下好不好都要經過合理的編列程序要合法合憲"},{"start":2314.43,"end":2340.928,"text":"這樣我們才能夠保持預算的完整性原住民的這個禁法條例是我們三讀通過的我們台灣民眾黨提的公糧收購提高一公斤提高五塊錢是經過院會通過的這都是法定的預算這次有個機會退到程序會議趕快補破網好不好這個可以跟大院再好好的討論這樣的編列方式如果可行將來行政院編列預算的法定權利將會被破壞那我們不願意這樣做但是我們希望說各部會"},{"start":2342.209,"end":2369.585,"text":"在編列預算的時候能夠具體說明清楚審查預算的時候也能夠很清楚的捍衛自己的預算這樣整個預算的完整性才能完整院長今年4月1號調的平均的這個幅度是11%民生用電只有5到10那我剛提醒你了你一下增加了25% 101那是連過去兩三年的我再給你看一個我從你個人的觀底談到整體的預算再來進一步我們來看某些機關來"},{"start":2374.796,"end":2387.149,"text":"總統府明年的水電費要增加28%施法院一下子跳了60%剛剛在講在挖礦挖比特幣嗎"},{"start":2389.308,"end":2405.698,"text":"委員這種形容非常不當委員這種形容非常不當你說司法院在挖比特幣這樣形容非常不當我覺得不要用這樣的形容是民間在諷刺為什麼民間黨在挖比特幣這個錢是誰的錢大家國人的錢我們人民的納稅錢付你們水電費結果這個幅度漲這麼高"},{"start":2414.261,"end":2442.965,"text":"你不掏人民的錢我剛剛跟委員講過那是三年的為什麼委員都不談論這一點一直用你一開始的論調呢那我們這裡沒有辦法這樣對話嘛我說這是三年來調整的百分之三十過去沒有反映在預算上甚至把它反映上去了就是這樣的計算方式那進入實質審查之後委員如果有意見可以在審查的時候跟我們的各部位首長好好的去討論那這個要做一個合理的編列這個我們都接受"},{"start":2443.405,"end":2468.207,"text":"院長你解釋了三年沒有漲 這次要把它漲熟不是三年沒有漲 三年沒有反應第一個當初沒有漲一定有它的理由 而且已經漲得過多了這三年已經漲得過多了 你都反應在上面 第二更嚴重了你再一次要漲25% 人民是不會接受的 人民是不會接受的兩萬年前 今天你說的 我們到審查的時候好好來討論"},{"start":2469.368,"end":2475.456,"text":"4月或9月在漲電價的時候沒有辦法適時的反映在預算上面這個我應該知道這個時程"},{"start":2477.574,"end":2479.755,"text":"今天也是一個很重要的事情"},{"start":2508.615,"end":2530.321,"text":"今天的最新的新聞說10月1號要漲電價而且幅度本來跟原來講的本來說要漲多少不給你1000億的補貼你要漲12到13%現在一下子要漲到13到14為什麼突然又調高了第二個你們這是情緒勒索嗎甚至什麼這恐惡取材嗎"},{"start":2531.704,"end":2559.089,"text":"你一下子一定要給你撥補,你撥撥補我就要漲你的電價,有這種道理嗎?把人民當什麼?當帕納薩?當培養是不是?報告委員,撥補台電是為了改善台電的財務結構,跟電價沒有關係,電價是由電價審議會...誒誒市長,等一下等一下等一下等一下,你要改善你的財務也有很多方法啊你開源節流啊,你有很多方法,你為什麼要拿人民納稅錢一千億又補上去?院長我提醒你一下齁"},{"start":2560.995,"end":2586.668,"text":"臺電的資產可以重估他的資產可以活化現在你說要改善這個財務最簡單的啊臺鐵現在不是正在做嗎為什麼你為什麼不去做自己的財資產的這個重估或者是說是活化你反而拿這筆納稅錢一千億一千億這樣去補嗎我先提醒你這一點第一個所以不要為了所謂你本身臺電的錯誤要去漲人民的一千億"},{"start":2587.668,"end":2602.095,"text":"不要去讓我們撥補然後不要再漲我們電價可以嗎第一點電價要不要漲要等電價審議會來決定並不是政府能夠主導而且現在外部委員已經過半所以對於電價未來要怎麼樣漲或跌這要由電價審議會來決定"},{"start":2604.096,"end":2619.333,"text":"第二點一千億的撥補是因為過去向院長講由臺電吸收之後他的財務結構需要補充但是我要跟委員報告我們已經請臺電要做資產重估火化資產改善經營效率多方採購等等這些都會照原理自然做"},{"start":2621.653,"end":2650.255,"text":"郭部長說如果這個一千億有撥補應該就是不會有漲這個價的問題那我現在進一步跟你講你這一千億根本就是不用是為了臺電的財務去做這個一千億的撥補有更好的方法嘛你臺電的資產兩兆一千億欸你自己不努力不做開源節流的事情包括你能源政策錯誤你從人民的身上掏錢所以這個一千億本來就不應該給那如果是像郭部長上禮拜講的"},{"start":2651.684,"end":2678.826,"text":"第一個一千億我們就想辦法不要從人民身上再去撥補第二個10月1號就不要再漲電價了我問一下部長我問一下議員你說4月1號民生用電已經漲了民生很苦對不對4月1號今年漁人節已經漲過一次了嘛你回答我人民這個漲電價一方面衝擊到物價一方面要穩定民生嘛你也是傾向說10月1號不要漲對不對"},{"start":2681.051,"end":2705.972,"text":"這個是政府的期待,但是還是要由電價審議會來決定你今天能不能清楚跟全民贏,10月1號不要再漲電價了你是比較接地氣的,我剛剛已經講了,第一個現在電費已經太高,人民已經哭哈哈的第一個你上禮拜也講了,你認為這個會衝擊到物價,衝擊到民生甚至你之前都講了,10月1號漲了就不要再漲了你今天清楚的跟人民講"},{"start":2708.412,"end":2733.943,"text":"雖然電價審議委員會還沒有開但是我想能夠擔任是電價審議委員的這些先進們都會觀測到整個社會民生的需求我個人認為雖然我們的民生用電現在是低於台電的發電成本但是基於民生用電的需求政府應該想盡各種方法來對民生的用電"},{"start":2735.305,"end":2745.296,"text":"來讓他有平穩的機制不要再增加大家的負擔這是要的但是我們的產業結構這些用電大戶的用電的量跟用電的單價我覺得我"},{"start":2747.728,"end":2766.306,"text":"我們就讓這個電價審議委員會來討論結論現在沒有人知道 但是我是希望你講這個很重要啊 你說希望馬上要開的電價審議委員會 民生用電這是我個人的期待不要漲了 要嘛就去檢討包括工業用電是不是這樣子"},{"start":2766.826,"end":2771.549,"text":"所以一句話就是這個討論跟追加預算一千億是不一樣的追加預算那就是要來看過去台電支付那麼多的政策目標之後"},{"start":2788.58,"end":2796.908,"text":"財政財務上的健全需不需要讓他能夠順利的經營以及民生用電需不要政府多投一些來協助讓他能夠平穩"},{"start":2797.557,"end":2820.293,"text":"那我們要用這個方式來講另外臺電花了很多錢做電網韌性的改善這個要不要增加一些錢讓他處理因為電價審議委員會馬上就要開了我們要決定10月1號要不要漲電價那大家生氣的是今天的媒體已經講了不只原來的12到13%他一下子要漲13到14那我們經過今天這樣的對話以人民為主"},{"start":2821.175,"end":2847.572,"text":"我們盡量民生用電不要再去碰到的甚至更進一步的現在很多產業用電也是很辛苦我只能說這是我我自己的想法我個人的想法第一個我們盡量再往10月1號不要漲電價的方向去走好不好我們盡量往這邊去走接下來我們來討論那個1000億你別的地方可以找到這1000億阿你為什麼每次都要從大家的人民的口袋裡面去掏錢呢大家看一下"},{"start":2850.599,"end":2869.106,"text":"從2022年的12月開始你們透過認股的增資1500特別預算500然後經濟部又認股增資1000過去的3年已經拿了人民的納稅錢3000億去補了台電另外大家看右邊這個表"},{"start":2872.149,"end":2891.438,"text":"過去3年漲了3次的電價一次漲8.4一次漲11%一次漲11%3年3年漲了3年漲了30%院長我現在提醒你最重要是什麼你現在看到一個趨勢波普漲價波普漲價結果問題有解決嗎沒有"},{"start":2898.4,"end":2909.208,"text":"去年 去年 去年底的時候3800多億的這個虧損你們說4月1號 今年4月1號 讓我漲一下電價結果虧損越來越嚴重啊現在變成無底洞 就表示你現在用撥補 院長你現在用撥補跟漲人民的這個電價 你不只沒有解決問題你變成個無底洞啊"},{"start":2923.286,"end":2931.933,"text":"報告委員 這個每次漲價都沒有漲到應該有的成本這個是我 這是真的所以 所以要用撥補的方式來填補這個財務的狀況那今年4月漲價之後可是你現在 你現在就是還是一彎一彎還是在漲電價10月一下馬上要漲 第二個你還是在撥補啊"},{"start":2943.302,"end":2943.863,"text":"院長 透過我們這樣兌換你沒有發現"},{"start":2966.274,"end":2993.335,"text":"你在講漲電價的同時在講撥補的時候你都解決不了問題就台電那個虧損是越來越大的有發現這個問題嗎你如果行政院長跟這個執政黨沒辦法解決問題只能從人民的身上一直操繭再撥補一直漲電價人民對你們不會很失望嗎人民不會很苦嗎也許委員認為是左手跟右手目的是主管機關來付或是台電來付再委員看也許是左手右手"},{"start":2993.735,"end":3021.344,"text":"但就台電來看就是他財務能不能健全經營能不能適妥的一個方式現在我們就是把他的很多的補貼政策移到目的事業主管機關來我們希望台電能夠真正的自立自營來經營他的財務院長你現在提了一個方法啦就是用政策補貼要改回去啦例如說可能各個機關以前台電負擔的這才是一個正常之道可是我再提醒你這個雷水車薪真正要財務的解決"},{"start":3022.625,"end":3049.267,"text":"要重更奏齊這簡單的嘛我們從國小就練過了從這個地方開始從大體的來推動開源節流嘛對不對開源節流嘛我剛給你看的就是節流從你的官邸到各個機關的用水電費一直到各個機關總統府跟司法院不要用那麼多的電你叫人民說要省電結果政府拍幾串頭"},{"start":3051.172,"end":3051.972,"text":"其實我們的電價應該是往下降不是往上漲"},{"start":3081.087,"end":3091.289,"text":"每次你們要漲的時候這是一個最重要的因素你特別說烏鶴戰爭以後天然氣暴漲這張圖我們看一下這張圖這個是天然氣最近這幾年他的整個趨勢圖給大家看一下這個圖你有沒有看到2022跟2023很高阿你看齁"},{"start":3109.804,"end":3123.948,"text":"天然氣最暴增的時候是在就是上面那個2022到2023年對不對可是你有發現嗎2023年就往下掉了現在2024嘛對不對2024右邊你看右邊這個圖跟左邊的2017年跟2018年現在國際天然氣的價格從去年2023年就開始掉了掉到現在"},{"start":3139.042,"end":3156.702,"text":"比201717年跟2018年還低是不是這樣所以剛剛跟委員報告四月之後臺電的盈餘狀況是有所改善的跟這個也有相關啊對啊我剛剛已經講過啦所以院長你這個很重要所以是那個電費應該降啊你怎麼反而往上飆呢"},{"start":3160.232,"end":3180.8,"text":"你的過程成本在往下掉的時候竟然電費不是降你是往上是成本的關係我們電費的原則第一個是反應成本第二個是照顧民生第二個是穩定物價再來是節能指引碳所以第一個要反應成本過去都沒有辦法反應成本因為原料也高各種都很高現在是盡量把它接近成本"},{"start":3181.3,"end":3207.094,"text":"一定是你跟大家說的從上一任的總統跟院長到你這一任的院長跟總統還有經濟部你們就跟我講為什麼虧損會那麼嚴重包括要漲電價你們的過電成本還是高的嘛所以我今天給你看啊你們一直講天然氣啊這個土清清楚楚了吧它已經掉下來了今年是改善的啊對所以它掉下來了今年是改善的但過去虧損太多院長院長所以改善了所以電價是不是往下降"},{"start":3211.582,"end":3233.557,"text":"過去虧損太多我們距離成本還是有距離的距離發電成本還是有距離的你已經過去3年撥補了3000億以上然後你已經漲了三次電價了你跟我講還撥不夠等一下次長你不要講你已經撥補那麼多漲了那麼多我再重複一次好不好3年撥補了3000億以上"},{"start":3236.853,"end":3242.218,"text":"那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例"},{"start":3256.509,"end":3281.648,"text":"還有民生用電其實是低於成本的所以政府也要穩定民生用電的成本計算不會漲太多的民生用電這個是已經存在多年的事實所以他的財務狀況一直不是很好尤其到了2022、2023整個燃料、能源上漲之後他的級距是加深的那今年我們在4月調漲之後以及現在這個能源的變化"},{"start":3282.248,"end":3309.99,"text":"今年度到4月之後它是有所改善的但過去的虧損仍然很多就是那兩個原因一個是穩定民生一個就是政策的撥補政策的這個政策之印那現在我們把政策這個回到各目的世界主管機關那我們再撥再希望用最佳預算來填補現在的這個民生用電這樣我們期待一年兩年之後的台電呈現出來的可以現在經營狀況會有所不點那天郭部長在這裡"},{"start":3310.831,"end":3333.319,"text":"也很大聲的說兩年之內他希望能夠有所改善那希望給經濟部一個這樣的時間也給台電同仁努力辛苦給他們一個鼓勵院長我們台灣人民的出資是很高的我想從這個圖很清楚看出來就是前幾年政府一直在講因為天然氣暴增所以你的電費必須漲今天很清楚從這個圖看出來"},{"start":3335.117,"end":3353.425,"text":"拜託一下現在電費應該是考慮要往下降了不是再往上漲我們現在還跟發電成本還有距離問題來了為什麼你的發電成本應該是往下降啊你用天然氣用那麼多你以前漲電價發電成本高也是天然氣啊它降了啊所以問題"},{"start":3358.496,"end":3374.952,"text":"出在什麼地方?一定還有另外一個漏洞你沒有跟人民講嘛你有一個沒有跟人民講的真相嘛為什麼成本還在增加?天然氣明明也是這樣啊為什麼?這段時間出了什麼問題?現在核能的比例已經相當低了所以核能的成本並不能"},{"start":3382.492,"end":3397.223,"text":"降低太多的成本因為現在是要彌補過去的這個狀況過去的這個補貼政策現在台電的這個財務是不健全的那希望說能夠讓他財務健全兩年之後那天郭部長講了"},{"start":3397.984,"end":3425.821,"text":"他很勇敢的而且負責的講兩年之內要把台電的經營讓他能夠順暢能夠進入到一個正常的經營的狀態那我們應該給台電這樣努力的空間所以我們盡量把他的財務狀況調的比較健全一點不要負太多的政策的負擔責任院長你台電的財務怎麼樣才可以財務的健全很多方式他本來是經濟模板我回到剛剛那張圖給大家看一下台電是一個經濟模回到上面那張圖"},{"start":3427.861,"end":3440.587,"text":"台電為什麼金雞母變成敗家子?你在講他財務的問題你看喔2017年2018年的時候台電都還是金雞母都還是賺錢的2017年那時候台電賺多少錢?118億2018年的時候還賺了35億到了今年你們累計要虧損多少?光是今年2024年不只沒有賺錢喔"},{"start":3455.66,"end":3466.088,"text":"要競損2124億為什麼這麼大的落差同樣天然氣現在天然氣已經比2017年跟18還低了那時候是賺錢的為什麼現在賠這麼多你在講財務問題在哪裡我們看下一張好不好問題在你剛講的你把核電廢掉之後"},{"start":3485.54,"end":3486.941,"text":"當然啦 核電你現場買很便宜售後服務就很貴阿"},{"start":3504.733,"end":3506.355,"text":"那也是人民的錢不是嗎?"},{"start":3517.398,"end":3540.9,"text":"對阿 你的再生能源買很貴阿現在就兩個問題嘛 你現在講財務你現在出了問題我剛剛跟你講 現進產業需要用綠能阿你以前是賺錢的 現在賠錢那你有去知道 去看那個結構到底 能源結構出了什麼問題第一個就是因為你把核電停掉了嘛 結果你買了很多再生能源欸這兩個價格差很多 你有沒有跟人民講這個事情 而且你又跟真相沒有講 要跟全民去講清楚"},{"start":3543.186,"end":3543.326,"text":"議長 讓我講完"},{"start":3560.54,"end":3561.741,"text":"院長你在會合的同時是不是要跟人民講"},{"start":3582.766,"end":3583.466,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3606.676,"end":3624.991,"text":"所謂的真相就是 核電買很便宜啦 比較便宜 對它事後的售後服務非常的貴每一筆錢都是 而且它的建設費用也很高 這個都要算進去的現在核電已經佔的比例相當低了而且你講後端 我們每一度店裡面就有核廢料的處理 有核後端的基金啊 細菌果園擺在那"},{"start":3633.218,"end":3661.111,"text":"這也是人民的錢這也是人民的錢所以繼續的用就會繼續要處理核廢料你剛講的是有問題的院長來來來最關鍵我覺得人民最關心的啦實業也要不要漲電價第二個你要跟人民講真相要講清楚因為你們廢核這是你們的薪酬班或者你們的意識形態嘛這個代價有多高一度電來看看這是從台電的官網抓下來的資料核電一度電的成本"},{"start":3664.879,"end":3685.924,"text":"1.13對不對 過便宜了吧你剛剛在講核二端處理基金4000多億也在那裡用火力發電一度要多少 2.98用再生能源5.39你這段時間你剛剛講那個為什麼一直在拿錢 拿漲人民的電價一直在撥補就是因為核一停了 核二停了 核三的一號機停了"},{"start":3697.045,"end":3713.689,"text":"好 謝謝時間到齊改委員謝謝張齊改委員 謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第9號陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":3735.479,"end":3735.86,"text":"請卓院長備詢"},{"start":3753.759,"end":3777.479,"text":"委員長早安三個跟兒少有關的議題快速跟您討論第一個我想要談的是3C我想要先說3C是中性的但是一旦過度的使用不當的使用對於非常多兒少造成的困擾我相信這幾年所有的行政機關還有包含院長您一定都相當的清楚我們來看一下但是可以怎麼樣對抗3C呢我這裡想要試著提出一個解方"},{"start":3778.752,"end":3805.672,"text":"一個是用閱讀來對抗3C但是這個我是有一些學理論證想要跟院長分享來下一頁在非常多的社群網站都可以隨便找就可以找到有非常多的老師跟家長在分享孩子們過度使用3C會注意力不集中而且這個注意力不集中會長時間的延續到他他入學以後開始學習學術相關科目表現都非常的不好甚至情緒也會不穩定下一頁"},{"start":3806.912,"end":3830.421,"text":"我們來看一下相關的科學研究其實從疫情前就開始有人在研究到疫情後這幾年相關的研究絕對超過1000篇以左手邊這個大腦白紙比較文展跟右手邊這個比較不完整可以看到過度使用3C長時間使用3C不當使用3C孩子們的大腦發育會出現很大的問題他在識字認知情緒控管會出現困難這個是學齡前我們已經可以看到證據下一頁"},{"start":3832.506,"end":3854.845,"text":"那如果時間用得更長呢﹖他會外顯到個人的行為表現在學校裡面就會出現了問題他跟同學跟老師之間也會有非常多的衝突下一頁那另外呢﹖如果過度使用3C呢﹖他在語言讀寫還有認知能力的測驗表現分數也會較低這都是這幾年非常完整的研究這是國外的研究我們來看下一頁"},{"start":3856.087,"end":3872.285,"text":"到了臺灣我們發現從衛福部給我們的數字裡面可以看到3歲4歲5歲院長你有發現嗎年紀越小的小孩用3C的時間越來越長喔那這都會對認知語言社會情緒身體功能還有整體的認知發展都會有明顯的負面影響下一頁"},{"start":3874.448,"end":3900.699,"text":"台灣呢做了一個統計這個是施大跟受了衛福部還是教育部的委託做了一個相關的研究我們發現從3個月開始6個月12個月然後1歲半2歲3歲4歲5歲孩子們親子共讀綠色那一塊都非常非常的低但是看電視跟用3C的比例卻非常非常的高我想這個已經充分的表現全世界的孩子跟台灣的孩子一樣都有3C過度使用的問題好下一頁"},{"start":3901.719,"end":3901.84,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":3917.318,"end":3943.133,"text":"那怎麼解呢 其實在所有的研究當中 包含國外跟台灣的研究都告訴我們要維持孩子的注意力 維持孩子的情緒穩定除了良好的家庭教育跟陪伴品質 有一件事情成本很低 而且也很簡單 就是用閱讀所以呢 每一年都會有相關的單位 包含師大 他們也都會召開記者會跟大家分享他們的研究報告 也告訴大家在閱讀這件事情上"},{"start":3943.353,"end":3958.37,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":3958.37,"end":3958.69,"text":"所以我來問一下其實我們盤點過"},{"start":3977.618,"end":4000.142,"text":"衛福部、文化部、教育部在孩子不同的年齡階段其實都已經有給予一些些我必須要說是一些些閱讀資源但是它是破碎的而且它不是用國家統整的高度來面對這個議題那如果3C這件事情它真的很有可能是未來或者是現在孩子們在一路成長的國安危機我們政府單位還可以做哪些事情"},{"start":4000.282,"end":4001.923,"text":"謝謝委員：從這個角度對我們兒少的身心健康提出了這個提醒"},{"start":4027.645,"end":4045.597,"text":"我認為除了學校家庭也是很重要的爸爸媽媽跟小孩之間的互動如果是用一個3C來減少互動是為了比較安寧的話那也許這樣的只對螢幕不對父母的現象會產生所以學校家庭都要進行很多的一個"},{"start":4047.339,"end":4067.718,"text":"認知上的改變才可以那我希望這幾個部會都能夠提出比如說我們這個衛福部就提出一些什麼手機還我小孩不哭等等之類的一些情境的手冊出來那我希望說各個方面也要從健康方面文化方面家庭生活方面能夠來持續做這些事情做更多的投入"},{"start":4068.257,"end":4082.496,"text":"我這邊有想要因為我的時間有限我想要簡單提出用閱讀對抗3C在各個部會盤點之下除了現有我剛說的那些少少的預算少少的事情之外有沒有機會用國家的高度來面對3C這件事情是引入閱讀"},{"start":4083.557,"end":4112.566,"text":"在這個AI時代因為我們是AI創新內閣我也要講下個月即將出版的一本中文書但是我已經看過英文版它裡面就在提到AI時代AI所能夠提供給我們的是知識但不是智慧唯有人類有智慧而智慧才有辦法去辨別跟思考還有批判所有來到我們面前的知識是不是正確的所以我也想要拜託院長協同各個部會在後續的閱讀政策上閱讀資源上可不可以以國家的高度統整三個部會"},{"start":4113.126,"end":4137.101,"text":"提出用閱讀對抗3C還有協助爸爸媽媽您剛剛說的協助爸爸媽媽跟協助老師共同去面對3C的困境是 比方說教育部也有提出一個新世代雙閱讀就鼓勵有數位閱讀跟紙本閱讀增加閱讀素養我覺得這個是現在很長一段時間我們在教育體系當中有所忽略或許那現在教育部已經提出了是不是不知道能夠簡單的簡要的跟"},{"start":4140.082,"end":4165.628,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心事實上我們從2000年開始這個全面教育部在推動這個閱讀運動以來那我今年剛上任但是等一下對不起部長因為我時間有限我們可不可以後續再跟你們討論我因為對閱讀非常熟悉所以我已經研究過了我簡單的跟委員報告就是說我們現在也鼓勵中小學所有的圖書館搬到一樓然後他是"},{"start":4166.528,"end":4169.43,"text":"在閱讀導入學校或是協助家庭教育的部分我們一起努力"},{"start":4194.059,"end":4199.124,"text":"我們來看下一題喔 另外一個也是困境 也是兒少的困境就在普特融合的部分喔普特融合當然是一個非常重要的回應"},{"start":4219.845,"end":4224.162,"text":"這個時代的理念但是問題現場非常多的困境我想我要讓院長知道來 第一個"},{"start":4225.993,"end":4254.32,"text":"在修法之後其實有相關的執法都已經盤點完而且也陸續修法完成可是我們看到還是有一些困境來下一頁第一個是老師的相關專業知能研習這個部分其實還沒有跟上腳步再來就是關於學生合理調整執營的部分其實也還不夠我們來看下一頁還有之前在教育文化委員會質詢的時候我也拜託過部長在分散式資源班他們共用教室甚至共同分攤導師費的部分其實對於現場的老師教學都非常的不利之前有跟部長討論過"},{"start":4255.3,"end":4255.6,"text":"施政策略委員"},{"start":4278.817,"end":4304.276,"text":"在IEP以外還要額外做課程計劃這對於在教學現場行政量已經非常重的特教老師其實都帶來很大的困境我們辦公室甚至拜託國教署跟地方政府一起來開協調會來解決地方政府到底認知上出了什麼問題我想要講這麼多問題我當然會說教育部跟國教署真的在普特融合已經很努力了可是在很多現場的落實跟政策真的還是要拜託院長"},{"start":4305.437,"end":4321.008,"text":"給教育部更多的資源讓教育部有機會跟國教署共同協助地方政府在補足人力也好在空間的調整也好在相關費用真的都可以讓普生、特生、普師、特師都會共同有感因為我們是一個普特融合的現場"},{"start":4323.063,"end":4324.165,"text":"主要就是希望"},{"start":4341.306,"end":4365.672,"text":"陳委員剛才所提的我們也希望在這個支援班裡面能夠降低這個師生比也能夠提供許多的這些普特融合教師的增能包括強化這個普特融合的等等包括無障礙環境的一些改善我們總是希望這些特教一方面能夠支持我們普通班有更多的一些特殊需求的這些學生能夠"},{"start":4366.312,"end":4385.542,"text":"在一般的教室裡邊來學習那也希望能夠透過更多的一個支持讓在普通班的老師能夠增能能夠協助這個特教學生在普通班的一個更好的一些發展我想這個方向我們是一直在努力的"},{"start":4385.899,"end":4404.097,"text":"那後續這個部分我們也會跟教育部跟國教署持續保持聯絡協助現場更多老師跟家長好吧那也謝謝院長的支持喔好謝謝部長謝謝接下來一題呢要談的是臺灣的即將升格的體育暨運動發展部那前兩天周思齊引退喔在他的現場我雖然沒有到現場但是我有看"},{"start":4405.278,"end":4417.832,"text":"埃爾達的轉播,其中有講到一段我非常的有感他說你們大家還記得臺北棒球場嗎那就是大巨蛋的前身很多人可能不知道它的原始在哪裡就是現在的小巨蛋而那個地方承載了很多的記憶"},{"start":4419.614,"end":4447.049,"text":"臺北市長已經承諾所謂協助立一個杯可是我認為這件事情應該不會只有地方政府的事情其實我相信在院長您的心中一定也對這樣的事情很有感觸所以是不是可以拜託體育署在所謂體育記憶文化傳承的部分我們不要只是立一個杯因為周思齊他身為一個選手他談的是這個事情但是用國家的高度如何協助記憶臺灣的運動文化不要讓它流失甚至有非常多的文物"},{"start":4447.769,"end":4465.476,"text":"現在體育署只有做數位典藏但是一般人很沒有感甚至不知道我想這個運動文化記憶的傳承想要拜託行政院持續努力再來我時間有限我先講再來關於他在那天的引退他講了一段話他說如果你們在牌桌上看到小兄弟拜託不要拍照"},{"start":4466.016,"end":4491.219,"text":"但是請去告訴他們我們回去練球好嗎他在講的是大家共同的職棒賭博的記憶我相信院長你一定也印象深刻當年球場只剩下101個人在1999年花了25年的時間臺灣球場總算回到了4萬人院長我要跟你說到目前為止體育署本來應該要開的職棒防堵會議到現在一場都還沒有開已經快要年底了我要講的是"},{"start":4492.04,"end":4517.695,"text":"在相關的條例裡面我們也提出我們希望有防堵會議的落實我們希望有防堵信託的支持我們希望有法治教育的深化如果有這些支持我們的選手就不用成為被賭博的工具他們甚至可以不用被黑道威脅在那個時代的記憶走到現在周思齊還有今年隱退的三位選手包含關大元、高國慶都談了相關的問題這個部分要拜託院長在新的部會裡面要積極的落實"},{"start":4520.437,"end":4521.478,"text":"全新與全民運動發展部"},{"start":4549.476,"end":4570.195,"text":"院長我想要問你看得出來裡面哪些是俱樂部的小孩哪些是學校體育班的小孩嗎應該看不出來對不對對我想我也是看不出來但是對我們來說他們就是台灣孩子他們就是台灣的兒少我想要談目前的規劃裡面我看不到兒少運動司我們之前一直在跟體育署開會可不可以提出一個"},{"start":4570.896,"end":4585.835,"text":"而稍為主體政策去思考的兒少運動司不要侷限在社區俱樂部也不要只有侷限在學校的體育班不要只有侷限在校隊如何把這個事情擴大到兒少運動司我覺得是有機會而且也想要拜託行政院"},{"start":4586.555,"end":4586.915,"text":"請院長快速回應"},{"start":4609.182,"end":4633.36,"text":"謝謝委員的關心跟深入我會請我們體育局運動發展部 院內的籌備小組 龔明星秘書長以及諮詢小組的召集人鄭麗君副院長他們能夠再請委員能夠把這些資料我們把它納到會議相關討論會議當中我覺得非常有他的意義臺灣不僅要有棒球的紀念那個圓山足球場我也很懷念"},{"start":4633.863,"end":4657.649,"text":"是是是沒錯沒錯好我最後還有20秒我只講一個標題就好了我們之後會再跟教育部討論會考制度已經實施10年了有非常多的事情其實需要重新盤點跟討論這個部分我想部長一定也會表達關心是不是後續我們還有機會再開持續的深入會議來討論關於會考制度造成的一些問題部長點頭當然好那我們就先謝謝部長後續我們會持續討論也謝謝院長謝謝"},{"start":4660.677,"end":4660.777,"text":"羅志強委員"},{"start":4698.695,"end":4703.076,"text":"主席有請行政院院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢陸委員好院長好我想請教一下我念一句話對總預算有意見有幾種處理的方式包括退回總預算修正說明通過或擇期在意這句話誰說的"},{"start":4728.649,"end":4745.9,"text":"委員說的這句話是2003年柯建民說的我們偉大的柯總召說的我想請教您在2008年曾經民進黨提案要退回馬英九政府的總預算請問你知道提案人是誰嗎我告訴你是當時的民進黨黨團幹事長賴清德說真的跟院長說一下有點感慨"},{"start":4758.703,"end":4778.131,"text":"全世界全台灣都知道民進黨雙標但也不要雙標這麼明顯啦柯建民自己都說對總預算有意見可以退回阿阿現在民進黨總預算被退回了我現在看到網路上很多謠言包括民進黨很多人站出來把國家說好像滅亡一樣"},{"start":4779.534,"end":4803.601,"text":"那麼如果退回總預算有這麼禍國殃民那民進黨是要先發個聲明來譴責一下賴清德總統呢以前也想退馬英九總統的總預算啊還是民進黨的邏輯是退民進黨的總預算叫傷天害理對不對退國民黨的總預算就是天公地道不要這麼雙標可以嗎 院長"},{"start":4805.132,"end":4823.651,"text":"謝謝委員對於總議選被退回我只有兩個字感覺遺憾過去我覺得好啦謝謝你對柯建民遺憾也謝謝你對賴清德遺憾過去不管什麼時候總議選被退回這個時候的行政單位應該也會做同樣的表達沒關係阿你要努力打臉柯建民跟賴清德我也尊重啦畢竟你是賴清德"},{"start":4824.468,"end":4843.247,"text":"的愛將嘛你這麼愛愛心的愛到打臉他我也接受啦那我想請教一下其實在野黨退行政院總預算也不是私出無名阿今天我跟你講行政院提的很多的預算過去預算的使用也有很多人不滿意吧 院長是不是"},{"start":4844.446,"end":4844.586,"text":"9月16號民進黨"},{"start":4867.952,"end":4868.132,"text":"沒有錯"},{"start":4885.677,"end":4906.275,"text":"未來不允許這樣的情形 你有沒有這樣說過所以你自己都知道 民進黨過去預算執行使用有問題在野黨來為人民把關 好好監督荷包 也是順行我們卓議院長的意志啊所以難道只許龍泰不滿 不准在野退回嗎"},{"start":4907.356,"end":4928.721,"text":"我發現問題我們是解決問題退回解決不了問題好啦你今天不滿叫做解決問題我們不滿就叫製造問題退回解決不了問題謝謝你再繼續不要再打臉賴清德跟柯建民我真的是我代替賴清德柯建民求求你啦不要再打臉他們啦又是時空環境不同我知道幫你講了"},{"start":4930.353,"end":4952.063,"text":"那我跟你講剛剛我們偉大的卓院長這麼樣反省這個所謂的標案集中的問題那我跟您說來你知道嗎立法院預算中心有說政府各個機關媒體宣傳多以限制性招標的方式部分得標廠商過度集中你有注意到這個問題嗎"},{"start":4954.437,"end":4983.715,"text":"如果這個是產生問題的原因我們就要把這個原因檢討之後從新的方式來做問題的解決那你知道農委會限制性招標的比例多少嗎你要新的方式見往之來過去怎麼做的方式都不知道新的方式不容易找到我告訴你99.99%限制性招標衛福部多少"},{"start":4987.188,"end":5012.919,"text":"99.82勞動部多少?99.47內政部多少?98.25國發會多少?百分之百啊請部長來說明沒關係啊 全部列在你後面來 全部都站出來 部長你講啊我們的衛福部 農委會 勞動部 內政部 法務部 國發會主管院長請你們全部上來好 沒關係 我要跟你講我就要講新方法了"},{"start":5013.82,"end":5038.627,"text":"建網之來 檢討過去才能設立未來嘛 對不對那很簡單啊你預算94%給民視這個叫什麼 花人民錢 洗人民腦我用白話文說就是養有慮媒體嘛就是養有慮媒體 沒關係啊 待會我講完再問他回答所以我跟你講 我有一個很好的建設性方案"},{"start":5040.263,"end":5062.67,"text":"現在我跟各位講請問我們院長你知道我們的媒體政策跟業務宣導費編列多少嗎?今年?明年?會不會這個不知道吧?全部政府嗎?對啊全部政府編列的數字有說增加了9.5億14.多億好啦我跟你講沒關係啦學長這數字還是要稍微盯一下"},{"start":5067.927,"end":5094.982,"text":"十四億九千兩百八十八萬較今年增加五點九億元暴增百分之六十五我不知道欸卓院長你都對過去感到這個做法覺得很有問題對不對太過集中對百分之九十四集中特定媒體百分之九十九的限制性招標結果我不知道我們的政府哪來的自信還可以增加百分之六十五預算讓你去洗腦啊"},{"start":5095.882,"end":5098.324,"text":"我告訴你我還是回到我們令我尊敬的9月16號的卓議院長"},{"start":5123.586,"end":5148.678,"text":"關鍵跟你編列數跟你現在成長數我告訴你沒有政相關政相關是什麼你要讓政府今天真真正正善用人民納稅的錢就是把你過去沒做好把它扣掉啦對不對你94%的預算集中給特定媒體我就砍你94%的預算啊這樣子我現在剩下6%你會不會好好運用"},{"start":5149.338,"end":5174.393,"text":"你不用尊敬我 你相信我就可以我相信你 我也尊敬你我只限於相信9月16號的主流報今天到目前為止表現我有點疑慮9月13號我說的話 我們若是在未來預算執行當中我跟主委員長講 砍到行政院院長你就會立場有點改變 沒有關係但是我跟你講 立法院幫人民把守荷包是我們天職吧 對不對"},{"start":5175.54,"end":5188.451,"text":"你過去你都承認集中預算標案這樣是不對的那我就用這個做預算指標來看看行政院未來預算該怎麼編嘛你太集中了我就砍嘛"},{"start":5189.56,"end":5212.911,"text":"回應民意嘛每一分每一毛都是人民的納稅錢啊你都斤斤計較原住民進法補償了對不對對不對21億那麼計較那我跟你講行政院的完全預算亂用我砍一砍拿去給原住民用我也覺得開心原住民也開心陳寅也開心吳立華也開心啊你的原則啊讓費羅作為原則我無法接受啦"},{"start":5219.755,"end":5230.633,"text":"施出有名整個預算書大致粗略的看了一下真的問題很多你知道吧 院長"},{"start":5231.903,"end":5252.668,"text":"我們在野地我是幫你把關找出很多的問題我們各個部會都很用心編列來來來 我跟你講我要講下一個問題再問一次沒關係 我們一個一個講我真的今天 我講三天三夜講不完但我只舉幾個比較好玩的例子我們大家一起當作一個有趣的事情來共同探討一下我想請教一下剛剛我們這個張祺凱委員就對我們的您的官邸"},{"start":5262.992,"end":5287.62,"text":"這個電費齁 暴增他覺得齁 很有意見他就說齁 你們是在挖比特礦嗎 比特幣嗎當然你就不認同嘛 你覺得這樣說法不好我也不認同 怎麼會是挖比特幣呢是在養北極熊啊什麼挖比特幣 養北極熊啊我再問我們的卓院長齁"},{"start":5289.363,"end":5316.919,"text":"我想問一下你比較怕熱還是陳建仁比較怕熱一樣一樣啊不不不我覺得你比較怕熱你有沒有看過X戰警X戰警他不怕熱啊X戰警不怕熱錯X戰警有一個人很怕熱誰你知道嗎兵人很怕熱啦兵人在一級X戰裡面就是被火噴死的啦很怕熱啦你可以去應徵X戰警的兵人啦"},{"start":5318.12,"end":5325.945,"text":"我們陳進仁可以應徵還可以贊成火人啦火人不怕熱你超級怕熱你跟電費可以比陳進仁多50%到底發生什麼事啊我知道你說檢討嘛我們幫你檢討嘛你用的時間並不多比那台多50%6月到8月不是你用的6月到8月是不是你用的嘛今年6月到8月是多少"},{"start":5346.766,"end":5347.727,"text":"所以我講第二件事啊"},{"start":5368.939,"end":5373.62,"text":"請問北海道是黑熊的棲息地還是棕熊的棲息地?北海道是黑熊的棲息地還是棕熊的棲息地?難倒你了啦 對不對"},{"start":5398.667,"end":5423.579,"text":"我給你一個暗示台灣是黑熊棲息地還是棕熊棲息地台灣黑熊比較有名黑熊嘛對不對那越北方你知道哪一種熊比較在北方一點的那北海道的棲息地是誰是誰的棲息地因為我白熊啊再更貴北極熊就你們行政院官邸養的我知道啦那個我現在是到北極去了啦棕熊啦北海道是棕熊棲息地啦"},{"start":5424.38,"end":5438.075,"text":"那我問你喔 如果今天政府編一筆預算說我偉大的政府 超級關心國際的生態保育我要到北海道去考察黑熊保育這個預算 如果院長看了 你會不會舌頭掉下來啊叫他更改去考察棕熊很好啊 理由都亂編啊"},{"start":5446.417,"end":5473.566,"text":"就在預算書裡面當然不是你行政院啦不能算給你啊監察院啦監察院給我編一筆預算所有的北海道考察黑熊保育我都快昏了黑熊保育跟監察院業務什麼關係第一個問號第二個跑到人家日本北海道人家明明是中熊七七地去考察黑熊我跟院長說啊我剛剛講過了今年的總預算是歷史新高吧是吧"},{"start":5478.201,"end":5494.786,"text":"非常努力我覺得今天我們要努力的幫老百姓把關這是我們的天職嘛 對不對所以我剛剛隨便舉就三個例子然後接下來我們再講下一個啦好不好下一個今天我們講退回總預算對不對"},{"start":5497.625,"end":5523.079,"text":"原因之一就是因為行政院沒有編足我們立法院三讀通過的原住民禁法補償條例的預算嘛 對不對這個是原因之一啦 對不對那我想請問齁你不編足這21億我剛剛隨便講那些東西加起來也真的是夯不啷噹包括政府的電費大增啊 什麼大增啊"},{"start":5524.529,"end":5543.853,"text":"說真的 原住民的進法補償這麼多年沒調整我們對原住民總要有點交代嘛 對不對你知道這個進法補償條例提出來 你知道是誰提案的嗎誰提案的 高金素梅委員提案的何止高金素梅啊 還有陳寅跟伍麗華院長我真的跟你講啦今天這一件事情沒有那麼難解決"},{"start":5553.055,"end":5574.809,"text":"只要院長一顆柔軟的心對原住民有一點柔軟的心你對立法院立的國家法律三讀通過法律有一顆柔軟的心你就直接跟在野黨溝通你就溝通你今天既然三讀通過對原住民對農民的照顧行政院絕對努力的把預算編組來對武麗華交代來對陳盈交代院長願不願意"},{"start":5582.452,"end":5602.341,"text":"我們絕對有柔軟的心但是在柔軟之前我們對憲法跟法定的預算承受必須要維護好柔軟在你的柔軟心之下原住民踩在腳底下你叫民進黨立委怎麼到原住民選區去面對你沒有關係我告訴你講今天總預算退回"},{"start":5610.785,"end":5637.022,"text":"今天起因之一是進法補償條例那我今天也知道院長您的態度沒關係反正原住民的票或原住民的福利原住民的福祉原住民的權益原住民過去的所謂的正義這不是黨派的問題不是哪一個委員哪一個黨的問題所以這個是憲法給予行政院編列預算預算完整性的問題接下來我想請教您啊柯建民就說要去釋憲嘛是不是"},{"start":5640.558,"end":5641.639,"text":"今天政府創下歷史新高的預算 增加4000多億"},{"start":5666.577,"end":5687.063,"text":"連一個對原住民柔軟的心都沒有然後到處 現在很多到處謠言啊講到說什麼總預算被退回 社福支出 什麼都不見了我講一個東西給院長聽 你認不認同這是我們現在法律規則的狀況即便總預算被退回"},{"start":5688.567,"end":5707.312,"text":"法律性的所謂的支出法律義務支出其實也是不受影響包括社會保險包括社會保險補助教育經費補助地方補助大概佔六成如果真的沒有收到補助反而是行政機關怠惰"},{"start":5708.325,"end":5734.38,"text":"然後侵害人民權益至於非法律義務的支出根據預算法54條之規定國會就算沒有在法定期限內通過預算審查行政部門可以依照上一年度預算先執行我真的說實在話啦民進黨不要一天到晚搞認知作戰這件事起因就是對民進黨政府對國家法律的不尊重預算濫編我隨便講那麼多的例子預算濫編然後呢"},{"start":5735.834,"end":5757.396,"text":"加上今天對原住民我們必須為原住民伸張啊所以這個事情搞了半天如果真的要讓總預算不要退對不對我們來去審啦看看我們到底是北海道該考察黑熊還是棕熊就是對原住民謙卑就解決了啦我想請教您下一個問題"},{"start":5759.088,"end":5765.33,"text":"院長除外根據各大機構民調包括臺灣民意基金會等等的民調臺灣民眾土片對司法沒有信心你知道原因是什麼嗎我跟你講一個是跟死刑有關一個是偵查不公開變偵查大公開我想再請教你下一個問題"},{"start":5783.578,"end":5803.391,"text":"民進黨在黨綱的自由人權章裡面直接寫嚴議廢止死刑的可行性 院長你贊成廢除死刑嗎對不起 再說一次黨綱就跟你講我剛剛問問題的時候好啦沒關係來您先喝口水先喝口水先緩和一下喝口水沒關係然後我再問我的問題對好 謝謝院長"},{"start":5812.574,"end":5842.26,"text":"民進黨在黨綱的自由人權章直接寫研議廢止死刑的可行性 院長你贊成廢除死刑嗎黨綱這麼寫是研議它的可行性 那現在的可行不可行在憲法法庭之後它就是一個標準 那我們在這個標準底下您贊成廢除死刑嗎現在大法官憲法法庭所做出來的決定就是我們的東方投票我一直很欣賞你 我覺得你是有擔當的人"},{"start":5843.73,"end":5872.079,"text":"連這句話有打不出來沒有那我就問你下一題你知道依照國內目前的多項民調多數人贊成廢除死刑還是反對廢除死刑依照民調的結果這個贊成死刑的是比較多對啊就是桃園民意基金會84%反對廢死嘛中華人權協會是今年這樣都今年的民調80%反對廢死那我想請問你齁在這麼強大的反廢死的民意之下你贊成大法官用憲法解釋的方式廢除死刑嗎"},{"start":5873.527,"end":5895.855,"text":"第一個他的解釋是有條件的合憲那下面訴出來很多的條件我們現在行政機關就在這個條件底下我們如何逐一的去執行你的回答是我下一個要問的問題啦那你贊成大法官用憲法解釋的方式表面說實行合憲但又有條件的方式設下18同仁證的超高門檻來達到實質廢死嗎"},{"start":5899.343,"end":5924.212,"text":"我不能說同意不同意因為大法官出來我們就只能做社會共通的標準我們在研究行政部門該做的比方說兩年內該修很多的法蔡英文政府的法務部長曾經主張死刑的存費應該由立法院透過修法的方式決定不應由大法官來解釋你認同這樣的主張嗎部長坐坐各位委員報告那法務部在這一次的那個死刑的憲法訴訟的延遲編入"},{"start":5926.202,"end":5932.304,"text":"認為大法官雖然宣布死刑核限但其實已經是實質廢死了你覺得大法官已經實質廢死了嗎?"},{"start":5957.304,"end":5972.089,"text":"在滿足他所列的那種狀況條件底下是應該有執行的空間是有空間的我講一個更具體更直觀的指標有沒有實質廢死就看死刑有沒有執行對不對如果到2028年我們賴清德總統任滿之前你覺得死刑有執行的可能性嗎"},{"start":5985.234,"end":6012.479,"text":"因為他裏面有很多 為什麼有37個 死刑定驗的死刑犯喔死刑有執行的可能性嗎他裏面有很多 必須在兩年內完成修法我直接跟你講啦 我告訴你啦零啦 不會有啦我很獨斷的說啦我們到2028年5月19號 吳國遠院長不管你還在不在這個位置上我們把我今天講這話打開來看看 好不好"},{"start":6013.514,"end":6041.871,"text":"社會大眾就認為已經實質廢死了啦來 我為什麼這樣講不是因為有憑證那我就問法務部長啊 你要不要找一天來司法法治委員會報告一下接下來37名死刑犯的非常上訴你打算怎麼應對以及他死刑執行你打算怎麼應對欸你這可不要推大法官了 大法官現在是說核限喔"},{"start":6043.097,"end":6054.3,"text":"阿既然合憲就執行阿執不執行?要不要依法執行?很好阿沒關係啦沒關係所以我跟你講我第一個跟我們的卓院長講2028之前那開始熱滿之前我不認為有任何死刑會執行就是實質廢死"},{"start":6070.506,"end":6091.212,"text":"但會不會有死刑執行這個問號也不用卓院長回答就是法務部長因為現在是法務部的事了吧不是吧是不是對啊所以請我也會跟我們的司法法務委員會招委來請你來做個專案報告好好跟國人解釋一下是不是實質廢死"},{"start":6092.776,"end":6120.305,"text":"那我跟院長說我講說是不是實質廢死我跟你講不是沒有本據的啦現在要判死是不是很難啦院長你對相關數據有概念嗎我直接講司法院殺人案件量刑系統統計犯下刑法271條普通殺人罪的罪犯你知道有百分之多少會被判死嗎百分之四對我上面已經秀給你看"},{"start":6121.377,"end":6146.023,"text":"可是在過去5年,過去5年誰執政?誰執政?民進黨執政476件殺人權利案件只有一件死刑定讞所以是降到千分之二一千件殺人案件只有兩個凶嫌會判死所以還不用大法官設門檻現狀要判就不容易了"},{"start":6147.239,"end":6172.985,"text":"施行要訂閱很難但要執行施行我跟你講更難你知道過去4年來從2020年5月到現在請問政府有沒有執行過施行上面有啦 我都很大方的啦對 我也不想用這種方式突襲院長沒有啦 零啦那我想請問齁我就不算現在賴總統啦"},{"start":6175.219,"end":6202.017,"text":"我們最近的3位總統你知道陳水扁任內執行多少個死刑嗎那有執行過32個馬英九任內多少個33個蔡英文任內多少個2個難不難賴清德到現在為止幾個當然是0可是我直接跟你講賴清德就是0一路0到底是不是實質廢死其實判準很簡單"},{"start":6203.476,"end":6223.03,"text":"我們就看著法務部接下來對37位死刑定驗的所謂的死刑犯你今天到底的做法是什麼到底實質廢死是大法官實質廢死還是今天卓榮泰內閣行政院實質廢死人民都睜大眼睛在看喔"},{"start":6224.502,"end":6231.069,"text":"行政機關推大法官 大法官推行政機關 但是我跟你講為什麼今天已經沒有興趣去管你到底是大法官推給行政機關還是行政機關推給大法官"},{"start":6246.53,"end":6267.109,"text":"我們今天站在這裡是真的是對那些無辜往死的被害人還有被害者家屬感到深深的沉痛憲法法庭也說兩年內要完成很多法律的修改這不只是行政院的責任大院也應該可以在這個時間內跟行政院互相來配合好 那接下來我要想請教一下"},{"start":6273.407,"end":6296.602,"text":"我們的大法官說犯罪情節屬最嚴重之罪才能判死嘛對不對是那麼如果犯下情節最嚴重的罪就應該要考慮死刑嘛那我想請問標準在哪裡你說情節最嚴重我舉個例子啊姦殺殺警察殺父母殺小孩嚴重危害社會治安這些算不算犯罪情節嚴重這個是算非常嚴重的非常嚴重謝謝"},{"start":6300.131,"end":6311.979,"text":"我就看我們法務部接下來對於現在死刑定讞的一些死刑犯你是不是用這個標準去看我們看到這37名的死刑犯裡面有人監察83歲的老婦人"},{"start":6314.537,"end":6317.919,"text":"請問這些叫不叫犯罪情形嚴重如果這些不叫犯罪情形嚴重"},{"start":6343.973,"end":6358.727,"text":"我還真不知道什麼叫犯罪情形嚴重我真的要請問院長你知道這37案要背負多少人命嗎?你知道嗎?這個數字我請院長跟部長老老記在心裡好不好這個數字我真的是很誠懇請老老記在心裡61條人命"},{"start":6372.61,"end":6385.836,"text":"當這個社會走向實質廢死的時候請大家請真的請大家看看這61條往死的人沒有關係嘛我跟你講院長今天你講也沒有用嘛我剛已經說過好不好我跟你的對話我就說過了"},{"start":6399.878,"end":6400.838,"text":"我會非常樂意你指證我的錯誤"},{"start":6429.022,"end":6456.775,"text":"因為當看到這些往死的人請問院長你心裡躺不躺血你躺不躺血我覺得這種行為國人都無法容忍法律也無法容忍但如果它合於憲法規定的正當法律程序好了 院長因為我的時間也差不多了政府必須依法執行謝謝你啦我本來要問偵查不公開變偵查大公開但我只剩1分鐘所以我問你一個簡單一點的題目"},{"start":6459.626,"end":6484.274,"text":"請問最近衛福部長邱太元公開爆料說賴清德打電話罵環境部長童啟明這件事你有聽聞嗎我看媒體知道所以我們的邱部長也沒跟你講啊我看媒體知道事後的詢問我覺得邱部長的發言相當的不當他自己也聲表歉意好啦那請他們兩個上來一下啦對不對我幫助你們大和解一下啦兩個握個手啦"},{"start":6487.848,"end":6497.905,"text":"真的不好看我跟他沒有怎樣阿我說我不說你我生兩個他們兩個你跟他沒怎樣你跟他問題才大了他跳過你三個更好"},{"start":6499.827,"end":6511.33,"text":"部長不要跳過行政院長去告遇狀不好啦好不好這樣對卓院長不尊重啦好啦我知道啦好好的團隊努力為國家做事謝謝您謝謝委員謝謝羅志強委員質詢謝謝卓院長的備詢報言會現在我們休息10分鐘休息之後繼續進行質詢"},{"start":7205.387,"end":7205.808,"text":"林國成委員"},{"start":7246.325,"end":7252.207,"text":"好謝謝院長請行政院卓院長勞動部我們何部長請勞動部何部長備詢議員好好院長"},{"start":7269.175,"end":7296.103,"text":"我看你每一次來到立法院西裝必挺然後穿得端端正正非常欣賞那是對院長的指示還有對大院的尊敬我也要特別強調在我們韓院長阿他的響應之下院長你看一下我是打領帶又穿西裝"},{"start":7297.481,"end":7312.21,"text":"為什麼 一樣 立法委員尊重行政院 行政院尊重立法院這是基本的為官之道的禮數所以本席還要再強調一次"},{"start":7314.441,"end":7336.692,"text":"臺灣民眾黨理性務實科學所以我在問政的時候我絕對是以理性方式來探討但是有一點勞工出身雖然穿上西裝但是我有一個個性也就是當我提問題答非所問不針對問題"},{"start":7338.936,"end":7363.066,"text":"我們這個勞工就會硬怒所以我還是要拜託院長我提問題的時候我們是共同來探討為了台灣為了所有的民眾我們共同來討論出一個行政院可以做的方法院長我想我這個拜託應該你不會反對吧"},{"start":7363.82,"end":7392.385,"text":"我會很誠實的很忠實的反應委員的詢詢我如果答得不夠完整我會請部長來加強好 謝謝院長 謝謝部長我當然我很關心就是台灣一千一百多萬勞工的問題所以我的標題很清楚也就是政府說得到要做得到千萬勞工才會安心"},{"start":7393.484,"end":7410.085,"text":"其實從民進黨執政這兩年來我對他對於勞工的勞保基金的處理方式個人覺得是負責跟滿意的"},{"start":7411.34,"end":7429.057,"text":"因為我要談的很簡單就是勞保基金的問題當然你們撥補也有撥補但是我今天要跟院長報告的就是過去勞保基金虧損年年當然"},{"start":7431.243,"end":7450.015,"text":"我都希望所有執政過的政府都要概括承受絕對不是勞工繳勺的問題而造成所以勞工是無辜的這一點我希望院長應該是很了解因為你也從"},{"start":7450.936,"end":7465.997,"text":"立法委員從基層選舉出來你可以瞭解勞苦功高不敢講勞工對於整個社會是有幫助的所以最後一塊的勞保基金的棺材本"},{"start":7466.718,"end":7466.898,"text":"這一點 院長"},{"start":7488.766,"end":7497.713,"text":"你應該認同吧勞工是臺灣發展經濟最重要的資產從過去歷任的政府到現在對勞工的照顧從來不敢怠慢"},{"start":7498.547,"end":7498.867,"text":"所以 院長"},{"start":7523.188,"end":7537.622,"text":"我常講過我個人對你是尊敬的但是有些政策你如果違背的時候當然我也是對你有所質疑但是我們要替台灣人做事當然就針對問題來談問題所以我還是要拜託院長"},{"start":7541.943,"end":7560.622,"text":"本席還有我們國民黨民進黨都有同樣的共識也就是現在勞保條例66條撥補的部分是行政院長也是你們決定自動撥補去挽救勞保基金"},{"start":7562.904,"end":7583.611,"text":"但是本席認為啊 既然你們這兩三年來都有在撥普那撥普是危機的處理 但是在法的立場 完完全全是行政作為所以本席率先跟我們宴會裡面的同仁 我就提一個"},{"start":7584.711,"end":7599.697,"text":"老保條例66條的修法也就是把撥補常態化 撥補法制化所以 院長 這個撥補讓他入法我想聽聽你的意見 聽聽部長的意見"},{"start":7607.074,"end":7622.743,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢非常肯定委員一直支持我們撥補勞保基金那麼因為是在這個我們目前總統在520就進行了宣誓只要政府在勞保就不會倒"},{"start":7624.597,"end":7642.421,"text":"總統宣誓底下 院長也承諾在今年的114年度的總預算裡面我們就編列了1300億的預算你們現在有在做 剛才我也跟院長說明了你們都有在做 那我的提這個66條只是把它"},{"start":7645.482,"end":7675.042,"text":"法制化也就是說現在勞保條例66條當中是沒有的但是本期已經提了這個法那當然最後還是要行政機關當然因為我認為立法院通過的東西只要行政機關不要因為我很怕又要提釋憲啦所以啊乾脆我們就講清楚如果這個是入法是對整個法制對勞工是有保障的"},{"start":7675.562,"end":7676.983,"text":"老保條例69條是什麼?"},{"start":7702.59,"end":7723.613,"text":"勞工有一段時間在10年前一天到晚恐嚇勞工勞保基金快要倒 勞保基金快要倒其實這對1100多萬有頭保的勞工他心有多痠 他心有多恐懼所以69條的部分我也希望把它入法"},{"start":7724.153,"end":7744.274,"text":"也就是 院長 不管是陳院長 不管是卓院長 甚至乙民村部長跟何部長 你們都同聲的保證勞保不會倒 勞保勞工一定領到他的棺材本 這點我要跟你們肯定 但是本席還是要拜託"},{"start":7745.535,"end":7771.802,"text":"因為我提69條是把他政府最終給付讓1100萬的勞工他知道他也了解政府已經下了法定的政府最終給付所以這一點我特別要跟卓院長要跟何部長讓你們了解我提這個案的當中是你們現在都有在做"},{"start":7772.222,"end":7801.024,"text":"所以這點我希望也不要再提視線講清楚說明白我想都是為了勞工好都是為了勞工好讓勞工安心政府也盡心讓這樣一團和氣勞工的問題解決就等於解決社會二分之一的問題所以總院長我剛才已經說明這麼清楚你對已入華你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":7801.98,"end":7829.105,"text":"一句話就是我們對勞保這個基金除了撥補之外還有很多其他的多元的配套可以來運用所以現在只能跟委員說的是政府不負責沒有人可以負責所以剛剛副部長講政府在勞保不會倒而且我們又會想辦法對勞工要更好謝謝卓院長因為你也是接地氣勞工要的不多"},{"start":7829.825,"end":7855.637,"text":"只要政務有作為勞工自然就會放心所以這一塊我要拜託卓院長拜託何部長當我們在我們立法院有關程序勞保條例66條69條的時候我希望行政機關院長也在那邊講也認同我希望這個會很順利的來入華這入華本來就是你們有在做讓勞工覺得他自己本身得到"},{"start":7856.758,"end":7877.082,"text":"我們卓院長跟何部長絕對肯定的讓他們一個安心所以我希望政府盡心勞工安心這個政策能夠去做好好不好 院長我們會靈活的運用這個勞保基金 謝謝好 接下來我們請教育部長來教育部長 政部長好 院長那個何部長你也不要走來來來"},{"start":7886.963,"end":7902.299,"text":"因為我現在要跟你談的齁我現在要跟你談的或許啊這些範圍很大但是這個是一個社會問題左院長我剛才在跟你討論你接地氣"},{"start":7903.513,"end":7931.852,"text":"但是有些事情你沒有為官沒有當行政院長的時候你沒有辦法做但是當你有機會當了中華民國的行政院長的時候你就有辦法去做這是什麼政策的問題我要跟你談的就是技職教育萎縮以後臺灣產業真的是非常危機"},{"start":7932.981,"end":7954.676,"text":"那有些人就在講林國成你是勞工出身為什麼要談這個議題這個議題很重要欸產業倒勞工就倒勞工倒產業就倒所以息息相關所以我要跟院長說明的跟兩位部長說明的技職的重要性好接下來"},{"start":7957.329,"end":7967.738,"text":"好 我要考考事啦 我要考考事我們賴清德總統在7月21號的時候他在開幕等你的時候我要請教何部長賴總統怎麼說總統在當時就指示他說台灣未來的產業"},{"start":7984.521,"end":7984.841,"text":"賴清德總統講這些話"},{"start":8003.925,"end":8004.305,"text":"總統怎麼講總統怎麼講"},{"start":8030.477,"end":8045.603,"text":"你現在只有瞭解卓院長你都還不瞭解賴總統這樣不行啦他就說計時教育非常重要啦不是只有像你講的這種光面團圓的光話所以"},{"start":8046.584,"end":8047.965,"text":"你同不同意總統講這些話"},{"start":8073.288,"end":8080.274,"text":"既然都同意了那我們就來探討一個比較客觀的問題來 下一張即時能力 真的學生為什麼會不青睞這叫做什麼 我們教育政策出問題"},{"start":8103.63,"end":8130.931,"text":"還有教育連貫性不實在所以才會產生這個問題所以我們就來看看這個問題在哪邊所以我提供給我們卓院長去做政策的決策才有辦法指令我們勞動部跟我們教育部要把它連貫起來因為教育跟技職是息息相關的好 下一張"},{"start":8133.768,"end":8136.717,"text":"說實在啦我再度再重申計止教育是臺灣經濟奇蹟的締造者"},{"start":8140.646,"end":8163.564,"text":"那這個締造者當然我們要去引導不然的話怎麼樣去締造者所以我在想我們從不管從50年代50年代開始從重工業開始起基在60年代這個人才的培育到70年代高科技的培育"},{"start":8164.465,"end":8175.722,"text":"這個方向都是對可是有一點從50年代還OK沒有問題60年代在計職教育還好在這個部分據我個人所研究"},{"start":8177.781,"end":8198.834,"text":"吳京部長在這個部分 他是做了跟行政院長報告 跟總統報告 計職教育做了最好的一段所以提供給部長去做參考那段時間第一個哪有什麼這個移工的問題啦 沒有 為什麼"},{"start":8199.906,"end":8200.186,"text":"施政報告"},{"start":8216.718,"end":8243.854,"text":"在這個部分我們的技職教育聯關性是不足的這我特別教育部政部長我要讓你了解要你了解所以我的簡單雖然吳京部長已經卸任但是他確實在技職教育部分是做得非常到位非常連結跟產業是連結的接下來"},{"start":8246.345,"end":8257.947,"text":"下一張好我說實在的阿 院長沒有計職教育阿就沒有今天的台積電阿 院長這句話你同意吧"},{"start":8260.316,"end":8280.154,"text":"所以這個台積電現在世界各國是一個護國神山那這個是什麼當初如果沒有政府正確方向去引導哪有這些工程書哪有今天的台積電所以我為什麼會提這個是只要給"},{"start":8281.396,"end":8282.298,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":8292.116,"end":8310.945,"text":"我們的教改成不成功我們都不要談成不成功我相信我不要問院長你也知道為什麼要回復50年代做得非常好的60年代做得非常好的技職教育為什麼就是未來到現在為止"},{"start":8312.315,"end":8331.221,"text":"副長你沒有發現到大家都要用移工嗎你現在壓力很大的不管是10萬個20萬個我們現在的移工高達這麼多不管是營造業不管是旅館業連開公車的都希望外勞連我們台電"},{"start":8333.562,"end":8344.993,"text":"在修理電線的都需要外勞這是為什麼就是我們技職教育失敗嘛所以這20年來完全是失敗的耶卓院長"},{"start":8346.345,"end":8370.354,"text":"我以重心長我們看到的是這些根本就是教育連貫失敗的計職教育是很失敗的耶 議長這樣啦 我用這個時間給議長因為我剛才跟你報告這些事情議長來 你對於計職教育本席到現在為止提出來哪一點不符合實際議長 來"},{"start":8372.655,"end":8372.855,"text":"主席"},{"start":8396.491,"end":8423.391,"text":"我們整個產業的結構能不能跟計職教育能夠銜接在一起其中兩項一個就是我們計職教育能不能提供很好的誘因讓希望學的以及整個年輕朋友可以進到這個體系裡面來第二我們的計職教育裡面的相關的教學設備設備跟師資趕不趕得上時代我知道很多的學校他裡面做的實驗到外面來是接不上的表示我們在設備的更新上是慢了"},{"start":8423.951,"end":8452.316,"text":"那有沒有足夠的師資﹖如果專業的師資不夠﹖業師能不能請進來﹖也增加他的量﹖用經驗來傳承我覺得這都應該馬上下手出去續資好 謝謝院長那在這裡來接下來下一張好問題在這裡重高中輕技資破身一定要生血所以在這裡有一個數據提供給卓院長"},{"start":8454.304,"end":8481.032,"text":"學歷越高 失業越高知道嗎 這個就是技職教育的重要性這個我特別要提供給卓院長 下一張我現在就是要來 大概來考試一下他山之石 台灣要接近 人家好的 我們當然要接近啊好 我們幾例 院長 我們幾例 瑞士"},{"start":8482.301,"end":8508.308,"text":"他是一個獨立國家他是一個很小的國家可是你就從來沒有聽到有勞工抗爭的問題也沒有聽到說他們那邊發生什麼重大罷工的問題沒有但是我在這裡國家有沒有特色當然有特色其他我不談就談勞工這個部分一定這我問你一個瑞士"},{"start":8509.226,"end":8536.58,"text":"他最出名的他的手工技藝你知道是什麼嗎瑞士就是手錶你看看一個瑞士很小的國家你看他可以行銷勞力士也好什麼表也好世界各國可是這些人才他從來沒有中斷過這個叫做什麼他山之石台灣要去借鏡"},{"start":8538.511,"end":8565.967,"text":"台灣要去借鏡好下一張我們看看德國德國你看看平常都沒有什麼聲音但是他有一個好處他什麼好處呢師徒一對一的教導一邊上課一邊工作實習就有薪水畢業就就業他這裡我還要再請教我們卓院長"},{"start":8568.86,"end":8588.127,"text":"什麼東西做得最好汽車對嘛雙B嘛你看到現在是最夠格可是這些人才他有沒有缺乏沒有欸他是跟產業結合來做教育還有做產業的發展所以這個部分我們真的要借鏡好下一張好啦這個我們簡單講過啦完全對岸啦"},{"start":8593.895,"end":8621.146,"text":"雖然他的經濟他的做法政治我們不談但是他對於這些就業的事情他是做得非常到位的非常到位所以我比的就是一些西方國家歐洲然後台灣比較接近的對岸這些都可以值得我們參考好的我們用不好的我們不要用"},{"start":8621.966,"end":8639.756,"text":"那這裡我們也不得不承認我舉例當然也有很多啦那你想一想這麼多的人口他有辦法維繫整個就業市場這個我們當然也要去給他研究來下一張"},{"start":8641.636,"end":8668.457,"text":"所以這很明顯嘛 卓院長我們技職教育的人才是真的不足的啦因為我們政策不重視就不會培養人才所以在這個部分 真的我要拜託卓院長你好好啊 給他升職 叫這個政府委員一個來負責好好研究一個台灣技職教育要不要重新的改變"},{"start":8669.755,"end":8689.308,"text":"以現在的情況來講 都是什麼 紙上談兵 畫餅充雞 完全沒有到位以及跟產業結合 教育結合 來達到真正既知人才的這些花效 沒有"},{"start":8690.747,"end":8715.656,"text":"沒有因為我們針對問題來談嘛教育部有一些策略沒有啦 我不聽啦我要聽左院長的啦不是 政部長剛才跟我回答那個他那個就是你送一個書面給我我有空我讀一讀啦你給我答覆那個就是在打官腔你看看我跟你們談話都很溫和我很柔情的人欸"},{"start":8716.696,"end":8724.321,"text":"但是他給我答話 你看我就馬上放炮他為什麼 不符合我們基層的需求"},{"start":8725.96,"end":8751.104,"text":"因為我們已經20年來計職教育已經失敗在失敗所以我為什麼提出這個問題讓卓院長因為卓院長我也期待你有所對台灣計職教育把它恢復回來這不是哪一個執政的問題這是歷史遺業也就是對於計職教育對於我們產業如何去發展是息息相關的"},{"start":8752.128,"end":8766.109,"text":"好 息息相關所以今天那個經濟部長不需要上來最起碼我要讓卓院長知道這個觀念你才有辦法去指導他們如何去把這個計職教育去把它改變好 下一張"},{"start":8767.722,"end":8785.198,"text":"好啦最主要幾個問題我也提供給我們院長啦齁直言投入啊大小眼齁大小眼這個你們回去檢討所以鄭部長你不要跟我講啊你們有多雄偉的這種雄心抱負你都不要跟我講啦問題現在就很簡單啦"},{"start":8786.826,"end":8807.127,"text":"我們談民進黨執政這8年裡面 技職教育根本就是失敗的我希望我們期待賴總統跟卓院長 領導之下在技職方面有另外一番不一樣的做法跟不一樣的感覺所以在這個部分 資源投入大小園我希望你們趕快改進來下一張"},{"start":8809.994,"end":8819.702,"text":"不符合企業產協合一完全落功這個我也要提供給卓院長好好地去針對這個問題我們大家來商討來 下一張這個重新一樣過去雖然我們對於這個協數的"},{"start":8835.049,"end":8835.449,"text":"會讀書的讀大學"},{"start":8864.144,"end":8887.421,"text":"不太想讀書但是他有技能的就在記職這樣合而為一為才是用這樣的話臺灣的記職教育跟人才的培育才會去成功的所以以上幾點給這個院長去做參考也就是一因應未來的趨勢"},{"start":8890.229,"end":8916.618,"text":"創造良好的就業方針這個應該部長你們也有在做我也看到那另外就是補充阿真的這個教育人才所謂正部長抱歉拜託你做法看下一次我就會讓你好好講到現在為止我也知道你剛接可是以前的部長我對他極度不滿意為什麼聽不進去基層需求的真音只有聽"},{"start":8917.864,"end":8939.458,"text":"政策又失敗當然這個問題就會失敗我希望到立法院來是要聽立法委員以重心長給你的良善建議所以這個部分我希望卓院長那最後一個就是增加記者的教育經費從今年所送來的預算"},{"start":8940.492,"end":8940.953,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8958.575,"end":8958.635,"text":"主席"},{"start":8974.415,"end":9000.041,"text":"是要做如何的指示他們如何去做 院長可以不可以告訴我好 謝謝委員幾項當中我現在特別要了解是我們對於技職教育的經費跟過去的比較我們有沒有呈現什麼樣的數經費上的不同或是內容上的不同但重要的是我要請教育部做法上要有不同同樣的預算做法上要有不同我一定要聽你的"},{"start":9002.506,"end":9004.229,"text":"因為政部長齁一定一定 純規文件規"},{"start":9015.629,"end":9044.849,"text":"我只拜託你今天聽完我這些建議你認不認同我們技職教育要加強完全認同完全認同而且我們也在加強當中謝謝委員的建議非常好所有三個要改變台灣人才方就是要從這裡走手不是今年做明年就有成果或許是要三年五年你就會看到我希望讓老百姓覺得說"},{"start":9045.969,"end":9070.971,"text":"卓榮泰院長做這個政策還好有他做這個政策就像李國鼎一樣啊聯電跟台積電不是他去做政策的決定怎麼會有今天所以我希望你做這個記者的教育讓人家覺得卓榮泰院長還好有他所以我希望院長責成這些這一個專案然後來"},{"start":9085.312,"end":9087.253,"text":"謝謝林國成委員的質詢 謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請陳瑩委員請質詢"},{"start":9129.304,"end":9132.307,"text":"請行政院長請卓院長備詢政委員好"},{"start":9147.373,"end":9171.231,"text":"院長好我接下來要質詢的題目因為涵蓋的部會非常多所以我想就請各部會首長就坐在位置上仔細聆聽然後看簡報這樣子就可以院長這是去年6月份行政院的新聞稿標題政府希望藉由提高軍公教的待遇帶動民間企業跟進全民共享經濟成長的果實"},{"start":9173.933,"end":9188.364,"text":"文化健康站、巷弄長照站的兆福園從2019年調薪到三萬三之後已經整整五年沒有再調薪了所以我希望可以立即檢討加薪的問題因為這攸關上萬名兆福園的權益"},{"start":9195.229,"end":9222.776,"text":"還有就是有關於各部會所主管的法人基金會以及公司是不是有依照行政院政策方向落實調薪這是我調查各部會的情形那有很多部會的法人基金會或者是公司公司他們根本就沒有調薪那甚至在有些法人沒有調薪的理由呢竟然是因為績效不好"},{"start":9223.436,"end":9252.66,"text":"那我覺得他們完全搞錯政府的方向政府是希望帶動民間企業跟進的是希望調整整個薪資的水平那希望透過調整提升整個薪資架構讓全民共享經濟成長的果實所以我們在這裡討論的並不是一個績效的問題那麼接下來我特別在我們看一下勞動部的部分"},{"start":9253.66,"end":9279.415,"text":"因為勞動部只有一個法人而已那今年6月份本席特別和整個和我們未還委員會的這個同仁一起去考察重建之家的時候我在現場已經有特別提出也特別提醒董事長也就是現在這個兼任董事長就是治安署的署長那我特別提醒他這個問題那這個董事長"},{"start":9283.978,"end":9299.09,"text":"還當著大家的面很大聲的來同意那我不知道就是說到底他是怎麼回去回報部長這個問題為什麼這個法人到現在時時都沒有調心所以我想"},{"start":9301.352,"end":9325.522,"text":"政府想要提高勞工薪資水平的美意勞動部其實責無旁貸有一個帶頭的作用所以這樣子會比較有說服力如果有更多的部會的這些法人單位如果大家都不願意為勞工加薪的話那這樣怎麼去帶動整個民間的企業去加薪去跟進我相信我們勞動部長"},{"start":9326.783,"end":9350.954,"text":"他一定是很願意來做這個領頭羊只是說我不太理解你們的董事長回去怎麼跟您報告的所以今天勞動部在這裡失去了一個帶頭的機會而且這些資料我還有一些資料我在質詢我現在沒有秀出來這些部會裡面有很多是像勞務承攬還有計劃用人的方式他長期聘用這個臨時人員"},{"start":9352.475,"end":9372.511,"text":"那這些臨時人員的薪資都相當低我們很多的部會也都沒有為他們加薪我在這邊特別花時間整理讓院長瞭解一下這個情形所以院長我希望這些單位我們大家可以馬上來檢討第一明年軍公教調薪3%"},{"start":9373.912,"end":9394.856,"text":"這些單位都可以跟進調薪3%第二個訴求就是這些單位今年沒有調整4%的特別是有人拍胸脯保證的那個應該要馬上調整而且要回溯到今年1月1日我想就提出這些訴求請教院長不知道能不能同意"},{"start":9396.338,"end":9411.706,"text":"好 謝謝委員各部會所屬相關的法人他的性質或許都有所不同所以條新的狀況是不相同的但是在行政院公佈了這個條新的結構之後"},{"start":9413.467,"end":9432.428,"text":"我覺得我們不僅是公務人員 軍公教人員調薪我們也希望民間的企業也一併能夠把薪資往上調所以在這個情況底下我還是認為即使他性質不相同還是要盡自己的經營的績效能夠往上調不過據勞動部 剛剛部長跟我說他所屬的這些都已經調了"},{"start":9438.495,"end":9451.43,"text":"委員關心我們已經決定在今年11月1號會召開董事會重建預防重建中心董事會已經有跟我報告了我們也讓他要在11月1號召開董事會對明年1月1號開始會挑釁4%"},{"start":9454.315,"end":9482.668,"text":"從明年1月1號開始對 所以這個差距這就是我為什麼會有第二個訴求那因為這個本來今年可能7月就可以做的事情那結果拖到明年那拖到明年之後他們等於喪失了今年加薪的這個權利我想這個部分我還是請你們再回去好好的再重新檢討研議一下畢竟這個你們有帶頭的作用嘛"},{"start":9483.356,"end":9512.829,"text":"好我知道委員在關切前面去年有調而我們未調的狀況那麼我們會在明年年中也會在一併補足3%好謝謝那沒關係謝謝我們後續主任總回答一下好不好再說謝謝委員我想剛才委員關心的大概有幾個不同的組織形態一個是政府兼注20%以上財團華人他整個調薪的機制要經過董事會通過以後再"},{"start":9513.444,"end":9538.551,"text":"暴阻管機關核准那事實上他在調薪他有一定的一個遊戲規則另外關於事業機構的話就是跟他的經營績效是相關的事實上有時候政府是調4%那事業的經營績效如果好的話他是可以調到5% 6%之類的因為他是以那個績效導向的所以不同的組織型態他在調薪的部分是"},{"start":9539.113,"end":9565.953,"text":"有看績效或者看他的公司章程直接來做一個不一樣的規範好 這個可以理解那總之我想今天這個主題也是給大家刺激一下提醒一下那我們來做一個檢討讓政府來帶頭好嗎所屬的這些單位好 謝謝那我接下來要請這個園民會主委院長也請留步其他可以請回"},{"start":9571.29,"end":9588.327,"text":"這個問題我想大家傷腦筋很久了但其實它沒有那麼複雜啦真的院長這個禁法補償的這個法定支出本來就會依規定核發那但是因為有立委覺得呢就是明年的這個禁法補償應該要編列到42億元"},{"start":9592.851,"end":9607.737,"text":"所以當他們看到預算書之後覺得說怎麼只有27億元加減乘除算一算少了15億所以那天就衝到台前罵了院長也罵了原民會主委那我幫大家整理一下"},{"start":9608.797,"end":9634.188,"text":"各位這個是進法補償歷年的經費核發的資料除了第一年剛開始之外過去的七年每年都是公務預算跟基金共同支應甚至在去年的基金的支出比公務預算是還要多的我們其實只要把過去的資料我們就攤開來看一下就一清二楚了"},{"start":9636.049,"end":9645.177,"text":"所以 主委 這個過去合法禁法補償的經費是不是就像本席所說的循網利辦理對 公務員報告對"},{"start":9646.958,"end":9665.026,"text":"我想這段時間有很多的溝通也克服很多的困難我是不是請主委也跟大家報告一下就是說你們這段時間當然我們委員也很努力你們這邊努力溝通的過程經過進度目前如何"},{"start":9666.381,"end":9692.354,"text":"跟委員報告這個進華補償是從105年開始就來補償我們原住民的林農從2萬到3萬到今年的6月3號我們大宴通過那這邊的這些調整也是因應我們的物價通膨的一個是主要的原因嗎是"},{"start":9693.775,"end":9693.915,"text":"主席"},{"start":9711.92,"end":9712,"text":"主席"},{"start":9726.32,"end":9743.791,"text":"應該是夠花放明年的進華補償我比較關心的是就是說這個部分你們是不是有跟主席那邊有討論過然後最後也是要問一下院長這邊的態度因為眾說紛雲那那個主席的部分是不是主委那邊也有對過了"},{"start":9745.11,"end":9766.675,"text":"這個跟委員報告剛剛主委他說的是說現在針對今年的預算他有他的想法但是我們要回歸到預算制定編列的原則上面來看行政院制定編列預算立法院審議這個預算有任何增加預算新的增加預算都必須要有新的裁員"},{"start":9767.898,"end":9784.758,"text":"如果說因為立法院一個審議的決議或是一個建議就把預算給它整個提升行政院沒有導到相同的裁員的話那對行政院的預算的完整性是不合憲法規定的我們是正在這個原則底下但是"},{"start":9787.02,"end":9803.676,"text":"另外一個方式就是由3萬調整到6萬這種百分之百的條幅在任何的實際政策跟補貼政策當中都少見都少見所以今年我們在大院審查過程當中我們曾經提出說如果能夠"},{"start":9804.597,"end":9819.108,"text":"由3萬調整到4萬行政院願意來吸收這樣的4萬在預算裡面表現但是在審查過程當中卻沒有被重視因此但是行政院還是負責任的依照過去的承諾我們編了4萬這4萬之後"},{"start":9822.233,"end":9823.174,"text":"行政院院長施政報告"},{"start":9838.368,"end":9858.417,"text":"各部會都用這種方式通過委員方式來增加預算那明年往後的預算將無可控制所以我們希望兩院之間要這種討論的空間而不是用一個表決的方式就把預算提高那如果這個是從30萬提高到60萬300萬提高到600萬行政院也無法接受"},{"start":9859.77,"end":9888.081,"text":"好 這個我們充分可以理解因為畢竟大水庫概念我們的總預算是固定的那所以現在要回到這個主委這邊那剛剛院長有很明確的有很明確的表示了就是不足的部分 園民會自己內部要去做調整那這個調整的部分不曉得主委這邊有沒有遇到什麼困難或者是有做到什麼樣的進度"},{"start":9889.441,"end":9904.9,"text":"或者是你們還需要更多的時間在座討論我想今天就藉著這個大院總質詢把話講清楚因為外面齁整天大家打來打去啦那當然我跟吳麗華都是劍拔啦"},{"start":9905.641,"end":9922.602,"text":"但是我們自己也是提案人我要在這裡重申我的立場我們還是跟原住民站在一起我不管這中間誰說了什麼我們就是代表我們是原住民選出來的民意代表就是跟原住民站在一起所以我要給主委加油"},{"start":9923.91,"end":9944.203,"text":"這個委員您跟吳立華委員長期為原住民：發言爭取權益這個大家都看到了那我也願意在這個領域當中能夠跟委員好好地來檢討甚至我們好好來制定對原住民最大的權利但是如果在一般原來的原民會的預算當中"},{"start":9945.303,"end":9974.021,"text":"卻占據了40%的預算拿去做單一的補助的話那對其他的原住民權益上是有所不當的我們當時的理由是這個樣子這個我們可以理解但是我想主委經過這段時間的一些調整還有跟主計的溝通我想你們是不是還差最後一步要再跟這個院長這邊來做最後的確認跟報告進度那我想如果是"},{"start":9974.801,"end":9991.995,"text":"如果他們試算出來是許可的那是不是院長也可以用您當初秉持的柔軟的心來同意他們的編列而且我想我見證了最早就是說我們在討論要不要這個"},{"start":9993.516,"end":9995.937,"text":"我們不希望預算的編列是用這樣的方式這個是不合法不合憲的那我們希望大家能夠"},{"start":10018.578,"end":10045.598,"text":"很理性的來討論那這一筆預算在原民會裡面當初我們希望原民會是說你應該就你原民會裡面業務的優先順序來做你最好的選擇我想是這樣就是說主委你把話也講出去了那到底這一筆預算你要怎麼去調整處理有沒有自愛難行的地方"},{"start":10046.701,"end":10051.434,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個是要發放也是明年9月底才"},{"start":10078.217,"end":10095.52,"text":"現在周不齊都是太早 都沒有說太早所以大家就先不要再讓你製造多奇奇怪怪的新聞我們就給他們一點時間做周周 把預算補齊我們就可以為你們加油這樣好不好不要把這個走預算退回走預算把這個原住民的居家補償當作藉口退回走預算我們還有很多救疫錢在裡面"},{"start":10107.93,"end":10108.13,"text":"主席 謝謝"},{"start":10148.5,"end":10151.321,"text":"首先還是先就叫全民所關心的議題有高達八成的民眾實時是反對廢除實行"},{"start":10174.121,"end":10175.722,"text":"憲法法庭做出的對憲法的解釋他的位階是相當高的"},{"start":10190.731,"end":10210.857,"text":"我要問的是政府能夠接受嗎?現在是應該形成社會的共同標準但在後面有一些相當的多的條件社會的共同標準就是歷次到現在八成以上的民意都是反對廢除實行您認為現在台灣社會有條件廢除實行嗎?"},{"start":10212.924,"end":10239.2,"text":"我還是遵照憲法法庭所說的有條件的合憲在實行這個制度上基本上原則上它是合憲的上午已經有委員也有就教您就是您個人到底是贊成廢除死刑還是反對廢除死刑院長我能不能請教一下因為其實我們也都很想了解我們部會首長大家對於這一個社會大家到高度關心的議題到底態度立場是什麼"},{"start":10241.015,"end":10247.707,"text":"我第一點在憲法法庭這樣的解釋文之後他應該成為一個共同的標準第二點如果要問我我覺得"},{"start":10248.888,"end":10252.17,"text":"所以您到底是贊成廢除死刑還是反對廢除死刑?"},{"start":10279.264,"end":10293.657,"text":"您反對廢除死刑是不是我覺得台灣現在是有死刑是存在的是有死刑存在但是重點是沒有執行啊過去到現在現在尤其民進黨政府上任之後其實執行死刑的狀況非常的少"},{"start":10294.417,"end":10318.337,"text":"而現在在做出這樣的一個和有條件合憲之後的一個判決讓外界質疑在台灣殺人比死刑更容易難道不諷刺嗎尤其大法官還做出了條件解釋要一審二審三審法官都要一致判決變成一票否定制中華民國從上到下所有的制度裡面有那麼嚴苛的制度嗎行政院長"},{"start":10320.123,"end":10342.957,"text":"所以這個憲法法庭要行政院跟立法院合作兩年內要修改相關的很多的法律他不是要我們行政立法合作現在看起來是司法院凌駕行政立法司法院凌駕行政院因為認為是行政院如果說要有任何法官要判處死刑的話全部的這個法官都要同意法務部能夠接受嗎"},{"start":10344.298,"end":10349.633,"text":"法務部過去我們在釋憲法庭的時候所講出來的認為死刑是合憲的有條件嗎"},{"start":10354.733,"end":10376.41,"text":"法務部的立場、死刑有條件嗎?判決死刑是有條件的嗎?我在問的是法務部的立場,不是你尊重憲法法庭法務部的立場是什麼?判決死刑有沒有條件?有沒有要一審、二審、三審法官都一定要定宴都一定要一致的判決才能夠判決死刑?有沒有?"},{"start":10377.236,"end":10382.6,"text":"立法委員在過去所有世界民主國家裡面﹐死刑都是立法權來做決定﹐來定立﹐可是今天是司法院凌駕行政跟立法院"},{"start":10402.861,"end":10423.152,"text":"院長我再請教現在有37名死刑犯是已經三審定業其中最長的死刑犯24年已經定業24年1999年判決死刑到現在24年還沒有執行現在既然有條件核限該不該執行"},{"start":10425.609,"end":10427.59,"text":"法務部該不該執行?我們是在依法處理37位是不是都可以非常上訴?"},{"start":10454.019,"end":10454.239,"text":"所以院長"},{"start":10481.138,"end":10504.851,"text":"我再拉回來我們這兩年上一屆一直在討論的是所謂國民法官法國民法官制度但是今天大法官判決出來之後所謂的憲法法庭要求一致性的判決未來國民法官的案件即便是六名國民法官都同意他要判處死刑但只要有一名職業法官反對是不是就沒有辦法判處死刑"},{"start":10505.745,"end":10506.205,"text":"現在就是要跟您確認這個議題嘛"},{"start":10534.688,"end":10551.246,"text":"六名國民法官如果說一致都判處死刑但只要一名職業法官不同意他就沒有辦法判處死刑那是不是就是一個漏洞是不是就是大法官解釋之後沒有辦法形成的後續的漏洞有可能變成是殺人犯或者是罪大惡行者的一個犯罪空間逃脫條款"},{"start":10553.598,"end":10571.686,"text":"這是法院指出應該處理的問題所以行政院您的態度是什麼會修法所以會提出行政院的版本修法是不是我只確認會提出行政院版本修法把這個漏洞給補齊是這樣嗎"},{"start":10575.211,"end":10595.177,"text":"這個法院主管的機關是司法院那這部分他們修法會跟行政院會選那我們法務部的話我們會提出我們的建議意見你的意見是什麼要修正這個漏洞要不要修正這個漏洞我現在就問那麼簡單院長我還有很多問題是不是請院長回答好不好"},{"start":10595.799,"end":10622.288,"text":"院長您的行政院版本會怎麼出來會不會修正這個漏洞剛剛部長說過法院組織法的調整這個是司法院的職權啊司法院的職權但我們認為可以討論的是如何將來在執行上它是可行的這個可行也要符合到社會大家共同的標準跟價值就是本席點出來大法官的視線就是跟我們八成以上民意背道而馳這樣變成是已經實質廢死"},{"start":10624.65,"end":10625.89,"text":"委員我很負責的能跟委員說明現在法庭所說的這個解釋不是廢死"},{"start":10654.557,"end":10655.097,"text":"以人為先團結合作"},{"start":10674.3,"end":10685.44,"text":"團結合作以人為先我想我們都同意但重點是團結不是只有你的團結是團結在野黨的團結也是團結全民的團結是團結所以凝聚共識非常重要"},{"start":10686.571,"end":10708.869,"text":"我們想請教當然國家的團結國家的方向一起走阿那我想請教上禮拜禮拜五晚上說賴清德總統宴請民進黨籍的立委那並且轉述之後賴總統說總預算被退回很罕見所以要求民進黨團要求韓院長要進行朝野協商那本席也想請教賴總統從當選總統到現在9個月的時間了沒有跟在野黨"},{"start":10714.417,"end":10724.585,"text":"包括國民黨團包括民眾黨團有任何的想要溝通的一個方向或是想要溝通的一個表示是不是這也很罕見"},{"start":10725.694,"end":10726.374,"text":"總統尊重五院體制的憲法結構"},{"start":10751.886,"end":10753.827,"text":"委員長,我可以請教,您剛剛進來的時候有接受媒體採訪,你也講是說希望朝野進一步溝通,那這個責任在誰身上?"},{"start":10775.182,"end":10795.856,"text":"我希望我跟韓院長也能夠溝通是 少野黨團也能夠繼續溝通那還有包括行政部門跟立法部門溝通以及現在最重要是總統執政團隊執政黨跟在野黨的溝通不是嗎那如果院跟院之間的溝通不良或是有任何的重大事件發生那我似乎總統是可以依照憲法啟動院際協商那這個不輕易的啟動"},{"start":10798.658,"end":10799.358,"text":"總統自由判斷我們完全聽到而且願意"},{"start":10820.157,"end":10821.078,"text":"蔡英文總統 馬英九總統 陳水扁總統 都有這樣的動作"},{"start":10835.475,"end":10853.253,"text":"您自己的了解總統不願意做這樣動作的原因是什麼總統沒有不願意他自有判斷在什麼時機用什麼方式所以您覺得您也不願意跟總統建議說是不是應該也可以跟在野黨來互相的溝通甚至如果說邀請在野黨來做這個所謂的這個國事會議"},{"start":10854.389,"end":10881.149,"text":"來做一個國事溝通我相信在野黨應該都很樂意委員的這幾話總統一定聽得到不用我建議總統一定聽到大院委員的建議他都非常重視好那所以您說總統現在在看我們立院的直播就對了我現在沒看他也沒看到報導那我們來看一下那我想請教院長來院長之前我們行政院江怡化前院長他也在上任的時候表態說要拜會在野黨的領袖當時民進黨的主席是蘇貞昌"},{"start":10882.47,"end":10903.485,"text":"雖然到最後沒有促成,但是我也想請教您個人的意願呢?總統拜會在野黨領袖嗎?不是,行政院啊,您現在是行政院長,除非您想要當總統,否則我現在講的是行政院長表態要拜會在野黨領袖啊,那現在您也從520上任到現在也已經4個多月了嘛,您自己有沒有這種打算?"},{"start":10904.524,"end":10920.122,"text":"既然國民黨跟在野黨跟執政黨好像現在溝通上那您本身願不願意來拜會在野黨的領袖我現在的工作還是比較適宜跟韓院長還有其他的院長我們來做溝通那各黨的主席"},{"start":10922.705,"end":10942.705,"text":"韓議員"},{"start":10942.705,"end":10945.406,"text":"大法官人士連綠營內部都已經有罵聲黨籍立委哀嚎拍出力"},{"start":10972.247,"end":10996.947,"text":"有這件事嗎那我希望因為這個是總統府的作業啦總統府的作業是那我也希望說我想請教上禮拜五你們一起座談因為民進黨上任8年以來找所謂的立委溝通都是找民進黨籍的立委從來沒找過這樣的黨籍立委不過沒關係我尊重你們的做法但重點是黨籍立委連人事也有意見了"},{"start":10997.788,"end":11015.84,"text":"那你現在人事你也不溝通你們沒有跟你們自己內部民進黨的立委溝通你也不找在野黨立委溝通那你們到底要溝通什麼這個在你認為之後的人事會很順利的通過嗎不管NCC不管考試委員不管大法官你認為會很順利的通過嗎他自然會有黨的祕書總統府祕書長"},{"start":11018.722,"end":11044.486,"text":"帶著這幾位被提名人：到各黨團做正式的拜託：讓大家互相的認識這個是絕對會做到的那我也希望大家能夠衝過去瞭解個人的背後的立場跟過去的學經歷院長說實在話要溝通拿出誠意不要什麼事情面對到在野黨的合理的監督的時候就推給韓院長韓院長已經是我們最看到最公平的工作人員了"},{"start":11045.319,"end":11067.363,"text":"但是不要每一次溝通不順的時候韓院長草野協商那如果說你們要你們通過你們的法案的時候你們就是下達軍令狀要求你們黨籍立委團進團出來投票報告我剛剛在談話當中沒有這種意思說韓院長溝通不良沒有 我絕對沒有這種意思院長想請教人事的部分內閣團隊有沒有溝通不良的狀況 內部"},{"start":11072.555,"end":11099.647,"text":"一開始我承認有那漸漸的到現在為止互相都知道彼此的工作的角色要怎麼扮演而且有充分的合作所以已經從一開始上路KK到現在比較順暢當然是比較順暢那邱太元部長跟我們環境部部長這是怎麼回事這剛剛上個月我也有推出過我知道啊但是我現在只有看到你人前手牽手啊但背後怎麼樣下一句我就不講了"},{"start":11101.401,"end":11101.521,"text":"總統罵彭部長"},{"start":11130.363,"end":11138.491,"text":"是你自己有聽到總統告訴你還是別人轉述跟你說我只是說總統罵在討論的當中這個我完全沒有跟總統有互動過你沒有跟總統有互動過所以是彭部長告訴你說總統罵他"},{"start":11149.321,"end":11154.782,"text":"所以是彭部長告訴你總統打給他嗎?邱部長 聽本席的問題本席是說是 你說總統打給邱部 欸 彭部長是彭部長告訴你 總統打給他來 彭部長接到總統的電話 有沒有第一時間跟卓院長報告"},{"start":11173.993,"end":11199.998,"text":"有其實我跟總統跟卓院長我們都常常在討論這個淨零減碳的事情所以這個議院的部分其實院長也很所以總統確實已經不只一次打給你要求你做相關淨零減碳的政策沒有其實我們在你剛說不實打電話現在又說沒有不是就是我們在這個總統有國家氣候變遷對策委員會我們行政院會先報告完然後到國家氣候變遷委員會裡面去討論所以這個討論的議題在這個裡面都有在裡面"},{"start":11203.672,"end":11203.692,"text":"院長"},{"start":11219.471,"end":11245.997,"text":"行政院院長你們的老闆說實在你們的領導人是行政院院長你們的任命權也是行政院院長任命的那一樣啊總統今天他貴為我們中華民國的元首他可以私下打電話給你跟你講一個政策還要你補貼相關的醫療院所這是不是已經介入到了行政體制報告委員我現在再請教彭部長報告委員其實我每天都接到"},{"start":11246.761,"end":11266.138,"text":"公總 商總 各式各樣對淨寧檢探的關心喔那個是關心阿 但你不一定做嘛但今天是總統打電話來阿總統打電話來你可以不做嗎而且我剛剛就請教的是說你有沒有第一時間接到總統電話之後你跟卓院長報告還是總統跟卓院長說了卓院長跟你指示"},{"start":11267.078,"end":11278.772,"text":"這是體制的問題你懂我意思嗎我們體制上我們跟院長都是在一起的我們每個禮拜沒有在一起因為卓院長剛剛已經承認了他說這件事件是他看了新聞才知道"},{"start":11279.997,"end":11303.7,"text":"所以換言之你沒有主動跟卓院長報告我剛看了新聞才知道是說 邱部長講的那句話我看了新聞才知道對啊他講的那句話我看了新聞才知道他講說總統罵彭部長對他講這句話我看新聞才知道報告委員喔我其實這件事情來院長我兩句話就好了院長我一個結論啦這件事情其實是說實在的話你們幾個部會首長自己私下的溝通但重點我要凸顯是什麼"},{"start":11304.721,"end":11304.741,"text":"兩句話對應"},{"start":11328.616,"end":11355.05,"text":"希望總統能夠做相關的責任政治的報告兩句話跟委員報告那我們現在在講部長也好我也好跟總統都會有公開或是固定在私底下見面的時間都會有沒錯嘛我現在講的就是說打電話指示我會跟總統談說這不嚴重我跟總統會談說院長你要這樣唾棉自乾我沒有辦法但是重點在於是今天如果說你跟總統是不同調的話那總統是跳過你指示"},{"start":11355.99,"end":11357.35,"text":"第一 碳肺基金要不要趕快訂立"},{"start":11384.895,"end":11407.77,"text":"本來應該是今年上半年度就出來但到目前為止還沒有出來基金的運用有沒有規則可循?絕對有我覺得各部會今天私下打電話我要五毛我要一塊那部長這邊就可以來做這個小金庫那這樣完全不對所以是不是應該要法制化作業?"},{"start":11409.568,"end":11409.948,"text":"總預算的部分"},{"start":11439.249,"end":11458.286,"text":"我們看最先進民主國家美國美國從1974年到2023年他們全國家的總預算真正能夠在預設時間通過的49年49次裡面有幾次 院長知道嗎"},{"start":11461.125,"end":11466.048,"text":"只有4次美國成熟民主國家他們在總預算預設時間可以通過49次裡面只有4次"},{"start":11474.96,"end":11501.977,"text":"立法院上禮拜五確實我們做出一個決議是大家投票通過是退回行政院所提出來的總預算這是明年最主要幾個原因第一2016年馬政府最後一年的時候全國的總預算是一兆九千多億但是過去民進黨八年執政之後尤其賴清德總統的第一年預算居然高砸史上破天荒的三兆這是創歷史新高"},{"start":11503.962,"end":11524.98,"text":"我們也認為說裡面有一些預算因編列沒編列 剛編列沒編列是不是應該要做調整以及第三 有一些預算明顯就已經有服編或是服報的狀況包括說宣傳費用大漲的部分我們也請行政部門是不是能夠算盤來再做一個檢討或討論其實站在角度是什麼"},{"start":11525.64,"end":11537.75,"text":"就是為人民把關嘛我的原則很簡單預算當用則用當審則審你可以問一下每一個部會如果說來我辦公室的只要他們來我說為中華民國做事為台灣2350萬人做事我預算絕對不會刁難"},{"start":11540.692,"end":11563.729,"text":"但是如果說沒有而是用政治意識形態或是讓我覺得是說你們有浮邊爛邊的狀況很抱歉我們不會手軟但現在退回預算其實只要行政部馬上調整再送進來我們來做檢視都可以進入到立法院再做實質的討論因為進入到委員會立法委員只能刪減預算只能凍結預算不能增加預算"},{"start":11564.829,"end":11584.315,"text":"這點院長你也很清楚啊所以我們現在退回總預算我現在要請教我們現在退回總預算之後行政部門有沒有打算調整預算有沒有打算所以你沒有打算要沒有打算任何的調整院長我可以直接確認一下院長我只要確認一件事情院長我確認一件事情"},{"start":11592.782,"end":11604.253,"text":"行政院這次編列史上最高3兆元預算我們現在退回我們也說只要行政部門趕快再重新審議編列都可以再送進來而且更重要的是預算法54條裡面有規定"},{"start":11606.391,"end":11624.526,"text":"一般性的費用人事費用補償費用補貼費用一般性例行計畫是不受預算的這個審查的限制換言之就是即便我們到12月底以前沒有通過明年的總預算但是明年1月一樣該發的薪水會發該補貼的這個計畫會補貼例行的計畫會照走"},{"start":11631.251,"end":11631.892,"text":"行政院知道"},{"start":11654.656,"end":11683.012,"text":"一般的預算我們可以執行但是我們不會因此而怠惰跟立法院的溝通第二點 很多的新增預算代表我們下一個年度政府的政策 新增預算就無法執行政府大開表步向前走的速度就會慢以人為本 團結合作你的團結就變成是說我說的才算啊我們現在認為是說你應該要去重新調整不要 我不要調整"},{"start":11683.874,"end":11699.58,"text":"我就是不要調整山上那麼多我不要調整在實質審查都可以達到這樣的功能我只是請教一件事是不是就是您的態度不會調整我們就繼續溝通希望那個禁訴復違之後呢大院就實質審查詳細審查我們誠意的溝通跟說明"},{"start":11703.635,"end":11732.342,"text":"卓院長丟一個難題給你他完全不退讓完全鐵板一塊但是就要求立法院長做超越協商這就是現在民進黨政府執政下的嘴臉我是維護行政院預算權的完整性宣傳大增尤其去年宣傳費用9億200多萬我其實認為這已經比馬政府時代的時候又多編了很多那我一直強調我相信卓院長應該也認同"},{"start":11734.011,"end":11755.104,"text":"做得好 大家會幫你倒選團不用你自己自誇自擂自吹但如果做不好 只想要粉飾太平的話 民眾沒有辦法接受那今年 全中央部會總預算高達14億9千多萬 將近15億暴增了5億9千萬我想請教 宣傳費用 多了5億多6億剛我這個需要"},{"start":11757.961,"end":11773.621,"text":"報告委員 去年的9億多是去年 網路我甚至沒有講說網訊喔但我想是說 電視這一些相關的部分即便 您有講到 只增加了3億多3億多不是錢嗎"},{"start":11775.152,"end":11799.157,"text":"3億多可以有多少營養午餐3億多能夠有多少學童補助這難道不是費用嗎為什麼要增加那麼多3億多裡面內政部因為打詐相關打詐2.3億院長你就講打詐我就來討論打詐昨天的新聞101董作他講什麼他說廖恆化有種不要下架他要下架什麼"},{"start":11801.201,"end":11819.502,"text":"他要下架詐騙集團假冒他的名字的網路廣告我們看下一張我們已經打詐三法通過了打詐五法通過了昨天 賈詠潔都還在他個人臉書上又在貼講說現在有詐騙集團冒他的名做這樣的一個詐騙廣告我說實在話"},{"start":11822.642,"end":11830.188,"text":"我們編列5億10億的預算去宣傳打詐底不上一個賈詠潔她在臉書上發一篇她又被詐騙的文"},{"start":11831.838,"end":11849.832,"text":"為什麽 因為這代表是說 國人業在在來上 你要執法權利 我們給你執法權利 你要執法空間 給你執法空間 但是 到目前為止 這樣的詐騙廣告還是層出不窮啊但你好好意思講是說 我的詐騙 打詐的宣傳要增加 從原本的1400多萬 變成兩億三千萬 增加將近20倍"},{"start":11854.891,"end":11857.793,"text":"所以蔡英文政府說不希望嗎來 院長我再來跟你討論本期的選區啊淡水"},{"start":11883.151,"end":11884.352,"text":"院長請問知道這個事情嗎"},{"start":11897.957,"end":11925.045,"text":"這個牽扯到治安甚至是國安的問題我覺得這個要整體的規劃整體的規劃才能產生出一個一個是主委說要6000名志工一個海巡署馬上出來講說沒有規定完全沒有6000名海巡志工這件事我們也不瞭解這個新聞怎麼來的所以管碧玲主委表示沒有 完全沒有那這個新聞是假新聞囉不知道 連署長都不知道沒有任何人知道這個新聞怎麼來的那要不要跟這個媒體來提告"},{"start":11926.045,"end":11953.89,"text":"我們沒有提告但是我們有澄清但是6000名海巡志工完全沒有人聽錯院長那我只請教因為我們發生事情之後我還是想叫我們各同防護海巡我們也各同支持海巡那今年海巡有編列了1億的紅外線的相關的建置計畫太少了1億太少了是但是至少我們在所謂的紅色海灘裡面你要建置吧到目前為止18座紅色海灘我們建置了幾處"},{"start":11955.106,"end":11959.712,"text":"但是至少本席講到的本席的淡水以及林口這兩個紅色海灘也是我們之前國防部所規劃的都沒有建置阿"},{"start":11998.334,"end":12015.252,"text":"好謝謝洪孟凱委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長的備詢謝謝報告院會我們上午的質詢到此為止我們下午2點30分繼續開會進行施政報告質詢現在休息謝謝大家"},{"start":21607.807,"end":21609.408,"text":"現在我們繼續開會進行施政報告質詢接下來我們請黃秀芳委員請質詢謝謝院長我們請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21645.916,"end":21646.1,"text":"網友好"},{"start":21646.943,"end":21673.505,"text":"院長好 院長剛剛在12點左右立法院的程序委員會又將114年度的中央政府總預算退回程序委員會那我想請教就是說其實在今年8月份的時候總統有到彰化去訪視地方的社福機構那當時國民黨執政的彰化縣長王惠美王縣長也在現場跟賴總統提出"},{"start":21676.867,"end":21702.132,"text":"章化縣有很多社福機構有需要中央這邊的幫忙尤其有五棟的社福大樓需要中央盡速合撥當場賴總統也有答應只要立法院的預算通過之後應該就可以很快速的中央的預算就會撥到地方來"},{"start":21703.472,"end":21728.294,"text":"現在我們看到這個中央政府的總預算又被退回程序委員會我覺得這應該是有史以來第一次那我當了立委第三屆我也是碰到第一次在預算會期應該是要審預算的結果是沒有預算可以審那我想請教這個院長你針對這一件事未來這個是影響的不只是這個執政"},{"start":21729.975,"end":21756.838,"text":"不是只有影響民進黨影響的是全台灣人民我們看到不只是社府的預算受到影響教育的預算然後我們也看到要給學子的住宿的補貼還有我們中低收入戶的補貼我看到這影響的層面真的非常的大國防預算也會受到影響那我想請院長針對這件事那未來我們行政院要怎麼應應"},{"start":21757.892,"end":21783.359,"text":"好謝謝委員我還是誠摯的希望大家能夠心平氣和理性的去看待整部的預算這預算裡面他縱然他有很多的人事跟一般的法定支出我們還是可以依法來執行但是重點在於一些新增的業務如果沒有預算通過的話是沒有辦法實施的那我願意很誠意的說明就是無論"},{"start":21784.321,"end":21804.506,"text":"是中央定的任何政策或是未來跟地方要合作的任何的預算包括我們的一般性的補助以及統籌補助等等我都認為這個是中央預算的一個整體不會割裂說是因為地方的我們就比較不在意因為中央的我們就比較在著急不會是整個一體"},{"start":21805.166,"end":21825.791,"text":"希望用中央整理中央預算的總預算的完整性交付給大院來審議所以在目前這個程序而言我仍然是希望說程序委員會能夠盡快的復為施之審查審查的過程當中我們據理說明清楚那麼有任何刪減的意見大家可以來好好的討論我們都予以尊重"},{"start":21827.351,"end":21842.357,"text":"我認為中央政府總預算影響的是全台灣人民當然就以我是區域立委來講我當然是希望中央補助地方的經費能夠儘速快速到達"},{"start":21843.237,"end":21867.642,"text":"那當然如果說這個中央的預算在立法院在第一關程序委員會就被擋掉那很難就是中央的這個挹注很難挹注到地方這個尤其是挹注地方的這個建設所以我們也希望就是說不論是在野黨所有的立委應該也要去審思因為這個影響的是全臺灣人民那尤其是這個地方政府的話"},{"start":21868.402,"end":21868.782,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":21885.234,"end":21911.816,"text":"網路上面市場會看到名人詐騙就是在網路上面就是說他可能這個投資啊然後就可以賺蠻多錢的那很多人是因為看到這樣子的一個廣告然後就做這樣的一個投資那我們也看到速發部可能在最近有這個打詐就是我行政院這邊相關部會也都很認真就是這個打詐的部分那我想請教就是說"},{"start":21912.577,"end":21914.538,"text":"目前是不是還有類似就是名人"},{"start":21933.147,"end":21934.85,"text":"實名制刊登廣告的成效如何?"},{"start":21945.59,"end":21964.159,"text":"我不敢否認還是有那過去我們是對於這些平台毫無力道可以作為那在打仗新法通過之後我們至少要求他下架下架就可以納管納管就必須會有責任我們就有源頭可以追溯所以目前在尋這個管道跟方式來"},{"start":21964.699,"end":21992.91,"text":"那對於若干的這種利用名人打詐 詐欺的這個狀況我們已經破獲了不少那麼也請一些受害的名人出來現身說法但是這個事情還是會出現那我們現在要求的就是出現之後用最短的速度讓他能夠下架同時追溯到源頭所以我們現在有一個打詐的平台等等不管是165打詐中心或是這個平台都提供了這樣的管道跟方式"},{"start":21993.47,"end":22016.313,"text":"那確實是24小時下架嗎或發現在網路上有這樣的一個詐騙的一個廣告目前我們通知Facebook或者是Line通常都會在24小時之內下架那委員所提到的24小時下架的這個應該是指的是我們最近速發部公布的打詐專法的執法我們這裡面有規定說如果我們通知了這些"},{"start":22016.893,"end":22017.373,"text":"刊登廣告應該使用實名制"},{"start":22038.88,"end":22050.272,"text":"要不然其實這個詐騙的廣告真的非常的多而且影響受騙的人真的非常的廣所以我們希望說這個打詐的這部分我們應該還要再努力"},{"start":22051.186,"end":22051.647,"text":"臺中捷運綠線延伸到彰化"},{"start":22071.188,"end":22085.54,"text":"當時交通部李前部長也有特別提到我們預計在今年年底應該整個綜合規劃會完成我想請教因為從5月份到現在也又經過了將近4個月的時間"},{"start":22088.823,"end":22107.894,"text":"因為民眾引頸期盼的彰化非常重要的軌道建設這兩個軌道建設已經講了非常久而且在今年我已經第三次來質詢我們的院長一個是這個第一會期第一次是質詢我們陳建仁院長那5月份我是"},{"start":22108.314,"end":22111.096,"text":"指詢卓院長和陳部長針對彰化非常重要的軌道建設進度如何"},{"start":22123.564,"end":22124.285,"text":"提出分擔金額﹑預算"},{"start":22143.026,"end":22167.518,"text":"捷運綠線可能要分擔到67億﹖鐵路高架可能就103億左右﹖其實對地方政府來講﹖這個負擔真的非常的重﹖所以我想請教﹖如果說中央政府﹖如果跟地方政府﹖可以同心一起的話﹖我認為﹖卓院長你也認為﹖軌道建設對地方來講﹖真的是非常的重要﹖"},{"start":22168.038,"end":22192.83,"text":"不論是運輸或者是觀光對地方政府整體的發展真的非常的重要所以我想再一次的請卓院長針對我們彰化的這兩個軌道建設那未來中央跟地方要如何來合作那競速如果是在年底綜合規劃可以完成的話那如何來加速我們鐵路高架的進行"},{"start":22194.362,"end":22219.214,"text":"捷運綠線道彰化以及這個鐵道的高架化最新的進度這陳部長應該有所掌握請他跟委員報告先說跟委員報告這個鐵路高架化的部分目前已經進入綜合規劃的階段那環評也正在進行當中我們針對花壇跟二水的這兩個基地目前設定好是雙基地也跟地方政府也都協商好所以這個部分是沒有問題"},{"start":22220.354,"end":22246.914,"text":"加速進行的部分委員也一直在關心所以交通部這邊會竭盡所能的來協助這個地方政府在針對這個綜合規劃的部分我們盡量盡快來加速這個部分是沒有問題我們盡快來推動那如果中間還有什麼疑義的話包含經費的部分其實我們跟地方會持續來協商這個沒有問題那到時候也會拜託委員也幫忙溝通那另外針對捷運的部分其實捷運的綠線目前是由台中市政府在做這個綜合規劃的階段"},{"start":22248.795,"end":22277.603,"text":"這個部分是沒有問題但是就是說彰化的這一段比較往南的這一段因為牽涉到這個彰東的這個都市計畫那我們希望這個縣政府能夠在都市計畫的部分能夠具體一點讓我們知道說整個路線他到時候的落站點會是在哪裡因為這還要都市計畫所以土地的規劃還沒有確定那這個部分還在等彰化縣政府不過這個部分交通部也會出面來協助臺中市政府跟彰化縣政府之間的溝通我知道委員很關心所以地方也很期待"},{"start":22278.343,"end":22305.063,"text":"所以這個部分我們會盡量來推動加速的計畫我要再次提這兩個軌道建設真的是非常非常久從我當議員到現在將近已經20年的時間這兩個從一開始就在講彰化要鐵路高架台中捷運綠線要到彰化來結果到現在還在綜合規劃那我不知道說未來我要怎麼跟我的地區的民眾講說"},{"start":22306.684,"end":22321.825,"text":"未來經過幾年之後還在綜合規劃所以我希望說這個卓院長我也覺得你是一個行動派的院長我們希望彰化的軌道建設對彰化整個都市的發展非常非常的重要而且"},{"start":22323.287,"end":22336.086,"text":"張化是六都以外人口最多的一個地方那張化可不可以發展其實有關於這兩個軌道建設如果可以做好的話其實可以帶動整個張化的都市的成長"},{"start":22337.868,"end":22361.583,"text":"章化也是整個中小企業非常多的地方整個中部地區中小企業最多也是在章化所以我希望卓院長你的關愛的眼神是不是可以投注在章化多一點進速將這兩個軌道建設能夠如果今年年底綜合規劃可以完成之後那是不是可以中央跟地方合作加速推動這兩個軌道建設的進行"},{"start":22363.643,"end":22384.963,"text":"好 我們本於這個均衡台灣的理念各地的重大化建設都是非常重要的剛剛陳部長所說的這個希望地方政府跟我們必須的合作包括這個有三個戰體它周邊的開發以及財務的計畫經費的分擔等等都希望地方政府能夠緊縮的有一個說法跟規劃出來才好進行到下一波的綜合規劃"},{"start":22385.592,"end":22411.332,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來我想請教就是說我們在前幾年行政院這邊都有一些專案針對學校的專案不論是這個斑斑有冷氣或者是深深有用平板那我也知道就是說之前行政院這邊教育部這邊也有針對學校的PU跑道或者是老舊廁所老舊校舍都有專案這樣的一個補助地方"},{"start":22411.812,"end":22412.172,"text":"張嬅教授"},{"start":22431.408,"end":22451.833,"text":"教育部在去年一年當中只有編列4千萬左右讓全台灣的國中國小來改善老舊的廁所其實全台灣只有4千萬真的非常的不夠我記得是去年的時候彰化這邊才分到幾間"},{"start":22454.154,"end":22478.135,"text":"尤其是在我的選區裡面其實針對這個老舊廁所會影響到整個學生或者是老師的這個身體健康真的影響非常的大那我想請教就是說未來我們行政院這邊會不會針對我們這些老舊廁所會有什麼樣的專案然後來挹注地方建設"},{"start":22479.445,"end":22502.475,"text":"我請部長先說明一下公立國民中小學老舊廁所的改建計畫謝謝委員關心事實上從105年到113年我們投入從行政院他用專案的一個改善老舊廁所投入了83.5億那整個做了一個改善總共有這一個3639棟那事實上這一個我們"},{"start":22509.043,"end":22532.793,"text":"中小學這裡邊每年的邊的有關這個建築物這一些硬體設備譬如說瓷磚掉落或者地平包括廁所我們實際上是邊列這個2億多但是以全國的這老舊叫這個廁所的改善確實是在整個年度的預算是比較不夠的但是也非常感謝行政院院長事實上看到了這一個問題他也這一個"},{"start":22536.628,"end":22550.179,"text":"對歷年的這個 全國的中小學的老舊教室也已經有都裝潢在編列來改善那我是不是可以麻煩院長針對我們所有全台灣的這些老舊的廁所"},{"start":22575.29,"end":22575.41,"text":"謝龍介委員質詢"},{"start":22615.534,"end":22641.736,"text":"主席我來請議長一下麻煩再請主委委員長備選議長今天比較輕鬆市委員好我來代表台南市的農業民送你一個東西拜託你他們希望你替我們台南市的農業產品多多推廣"},{"start":22644.38,"end":22646.781,"text":"這我告訴你,這今天熱情點要喝過,別人都不喝過"},{"start":22678.643,"end":22700.111,"text":"來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":22724.051,"end":22749.147,"text":"非常甜蜜這是台南市山頂壓星的盤壁真的烹飪跟農民、漁民經濟不好希望一定你的官邸可以多多為中南部這些農業產品推廣選一些最大的氣氛"},{"start":22751.158,"end":22760.583,"text":"加一些探訪會最多這是農曆民希望我在這提供表達他們真無奈的心聲蕊哥啊是你在打捏請像一個家庭一樣人家說家和伴屬親"},{"start":22779.465,"end":22780.766,"text":"他不是這種人這我們很清楚"},{"start":22810.97,"end":22837.882,"text":"在那不是老總統的意思嘛在你﹐也不是你委員長的意思啊齁?這樣算什麼意思?就自己三八個懸揮啊我今天訂陳時中﹐對我有什麼幫忙?突然你跟老清廷有交情這樣齁?沒有啦,他們這裡來的﹐什麼人的交情比我們倆的關係好嗎?委員好"},{"start":22841.243,"end":22857.949,"text":"沒有啦,我們倆的背後,我們倆的牽絲穿著背後啦除了你們副委長以外,可能沒有人比我們倆的牽絲好我講的你可能聽得懂啦所以何必在那裡,在鳳堤民燈前,在清唱意思是什麼?總統有感冒過,你不很清"},{"start":22865.97,"end":22878.82,"text":"我希望這件事不要再發生了是 這絕對要再發生這就會改變 會影響到你呢對 這一定要請內閣委員可以真的謹修自己這個分寸對政策清清楚楚感受出來我們的戰鬥機 發生各種非英文挑機對不對 這件事你知道嗎是"},{"start":22895.779,"end":22896.839,"text":"委員長施政報告．第1次會議．第2次會議"},{"start":22922.313,"end":22935.566,"text":"委員報告這件事在處理的那些東西 最快的時間來都有掌握到它的狀況我是說我愛想...我們要尊重第一層 機會關 跟工作的這個...沒有啦 不要再尊重了啦你給我應付這個也沒意思嘛 我跟你說 總比的檢查要怎麼落實啊"},{"start":22947.366,"end":22962.554,"text":"你不一定知道,我們訓練一個肥胸丸,到他成為一個合計的肥胸丸,我們都要花多少錢這要用經費來算,那不得了,但是我覺得那是有價的實際的經費,以美金給我們的標準,我們訓練一個合計的肥胸丸,合理說差不多在那550萬、780萬的美金嘛等於說我們開啟他的新股定價,到他可以買"},{"start":22978.122,"end":22986.746,"text":"應該是差不多在那1億6千萬至1億8千萬不然我講這樣說不對所以會議員救起來那時候大家心裡都覺得很安慰都覺得很安慰所以我們尊重第一線 工作我們開這麼多錢去訓練一個合計的會議員目的是什麼是要保護我們的國家嘛 修復經濟結果他下去 救到不得不遲"},{"start":23006.345,"end":23014.829,"text":"那是全國際都是給我們浪費的,臭的這部長有說明一下嗎部長我請教你,要怎麼挽救?這是裝備兼職要怎麼落實?我們有六台直升機有夜間搜救的能力,所以我們的這個能力是有,但是委員講的就是說"},{"start":23031.348,"end":23036.03,"text":"所以我剛才在跟你說醫藥對裝備檢測要怎麼落實對不對對,裝備的妥善率這真的是要減少改進"},{"start":23058.735,"end":23080.047,"text":"我告訴你不要緊張 因為現在兩方很緊張嘛我們每一個總編在來都不簡單 都發生了很多事嘛你如果好好檢查 維修你看看那是大老人 你要收罪嗎 你覺得要收罪那老人在12月聽就對了"},{"start":23082.341,"end":23093.353,"text":"他的跳繩有一個環在裡面的土地海水不是陰溼的,都是熄溫溼的大家互相勉勵,我是覺得這很重要總比的檢測如果沒有落實這件事大家已經看了兩百年了,潘石居自己執政了"},{"start":23102.834,"end":23117.063,"text":"感謝委員的提起這一定是未來要加強總比 妥妥善這個工作一定要加強下去 我剛才跟你答應要給台灣的鄉親放心啦我們的弟兄姊妹在這裡處理很努力現在又落在一邊 很難看啦 不用我放心給專民放心 好不好"},{"start":23131.203,"end":23134.625,"text":"總比檢測要落實這我沒便宜 隨時會發生因為我們有訓練"},{"start":23143.044,"end":23159.472,"text":"簽入中選 入席我們的訓練領隊就入席入席 議會就發聲再發聲 再處理 再背 再拉起來那時候就犯規了 好不好來 你說我們跟海巡的那個合作不是這麼密切啦市長 這個事情啦齁大法官 真偉大大法官 憤怨的解說"},{"start":23173.499,"end":23187.631,"text":"什麼叫憲法的解釋我們的憲法是不是某款憲法啊 議長當然 現在是某款的體制但是我為什麼侵犯立法院的規則在18小時內我在這裡公開"},{"start":23198.666,"end":23204.148,"text":"施行合憲這叫作不動的心理啦因落中就是要說施行是危險的打你的好朋友 老總統請電那一隻起來說這要聽民意"},{"start":23227.029,"end":23240.336,"text":"有夠好 他們真的是政運中的政運 但坦白說先跟你說施行 合憲 後來改水 外來外去 外出 外來外去改水又不搭不齊就要3、4、10月的法官都同意 一個沒同意 不能放 按照他的改水 沒一個會死"},{"start":23252.782,"end":23273.498,"text":"所以臺灣今天已經入侵到1111 輝煮私營臺灣要做什麼?後來要煎豚肉 後來要煎魚 煎刺身 不好這台法官要面對人民的可憐現在來解說以後 教育解說以後就換到你們了喔這私營37個私營份啦齁破頂的 當機時我們是依照什麼"},{"start":23283.164,"end":23298.556,"text":"施政法案第148條第1項繼續收容收容有沒有期限收容是沒有期限沒有期限嘛因為它是待執行的執行的對對對 收容是沒有因為要等10天嘛好不好那這樣"},{"start":23307.578,"end":23312.362,"text":"這個37的死刑犯就是由最高檢察署來做一個審核這個要看那個個案這個有可能"},{"start":23336.598,"end":23337.018,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":23366.425,"end":23373.108,"text":"所以您是說希望建議 繼續 歡迎 繼續 給我這個檢察會建立法院要繼續來擠壓啊歡迎啦 沒同意的 他們就放手這樣"},{"start":23388.092,"end":23400.317,"text":"委員報告這事是不是發回 發回也做什麼破罪 裁定一半一半所謂的問題 你也說一半一半這三張 這些人都是極凶惡之徒 但是在大法國的改正就說他們不地勢大法國就是這樣想的"},{"start":23412.816,"end":23421.282,"text":"被他們殺害的那60多人的人權在哪裡?他說什麼?就要30、40、50億的法官都當他?YES!可以破死他這是違反的不對嗎?如果要說人權都說了如果這樣為什麼不去當他?跟他去當他?不用傳播的法官都當他?"},{"start":23441.67,"end":23441.87,"text":"實在說﹖歡迎"},{"start":23469.568,"end":23472.47,"text":"若是非常上訴以後 確定啦 確定啦齁這37個裡面 同期是有一地割的 有一地割的有幾個 你知道嗎 柏中這個要最高檢察署來調 調位那個 我們會把卷送給來做一個審核那另外那個 這個一致決的話 這個要向平益部"},{"start":23498.766,"end":23498.946,"text":"這要調評一部來審核"},{"start":23529.249,"end":23551.755,"text":"所以你若不知道就對了,這的人已經有20幾年了,保證,40幾年了,已經拐摸無機都行的都行現在來若沒有再審,若沒有五個法官都把他破死刑,他即時可以申請假釋,保證是不是這樣"},{"start":23554.027,"end":23562.955,"text":"這個依照現行的法律﹚無期徒刑﹚要假釋其實要25年25年跟委員報告不是25年就可以假釋 只是達到假釋的一個對啦 那就是他就可以申請了嘛 對不對依法﹚他可以申請假釋再來﹚37條裡面 這37條的私隱文有幾個人在三省有件事辯論的 你知道嗎"},{"start":23581.107,"end":23585.009,"text":"現在大法官說 如果三審沒言詞辯論 你是不能發言這37個有整個有言詞辯論的這個要有調劵來做一個具體的個案的一個宣言你發了你不就要問我說 數萬人聽到就公開說阿37個裡面只有5個人有言詞辯論阿對不對 一定會這樣 表示另外那30個不能發言"},{"start":23611.167,"end":23628.351,"text":"牆壁不可以破屎 還不一定還可以再鎖這樣不好喔 這個台灣官員在免 免得過分你不會放他過去這我告訴你 傷害了台灣人民的感情最深的如果要領款 你不就應該說 最初一喔"},{"start":23637.892,"end":23660.64,"text":"議員："},{"start":23661.383,"end":23679.366,"text":"我回答一個中性的問題啦齁 拔斷市名款 跟拔斷主流款 其實是不一樣的 因為差異數比較高的標準 是針對拔斷市名款的這個管理啦 但是這個 是特地黨的社會過討論 剛才你說有誤會 沒錯 一百多年以後 要怎麼改善違憲他才會受傷害 是要延遲辯論 他應該替代婚姻 由你換他來制定新的婚姻 不是他講的尊聖啦 所以我說他違憲啦"},{"start":23693.319,"end":23721.295,"text":"致敬酒 罷敬酒 致敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬酒 現在是怎樣?致敬酒 罷敬"},{"start":23722.403,"end":23723.043,"text":"對這議案這情何以堪好來"},{"start":23752.708,"end":23763.453,"text":"委員長 您的政策還沒辦法改變您繼續維持2025年恢復恢復齡的家庭 每個月的標料還要檢討這樣讓我們台灣就對了 延長差不多3年多至4年 會再度恢復恢復齡"},{"start":23779.175,"end":23784.577,"text":"會料到我們的九千億至一丟兩千億的剩餘這是專門要共同付出的代價那麼你那一天有去七個﹐看一個太陽燈的場﹐有嗎有你去看那張有沒有合法那張剩下的是比較順利的一張但是還有一些稍微滑下去的艇數要再完成"},{"start":23807.034,"end":23815.198,"text":"他回頭有跟我說他還有一些他有跟你說嗎?我還沒完全學到就對了你為什麼去看那張?你怎麼知道?誰跟你介紹的?這是經濟部收到的資料來,我一定要去那個資料經濟部?那間就是老總統清廳的好朋友"},{"start":23830.353,"end":23841.722,"text":"我去晉晉真的不知道我去晉晉真的不知道我知道你晉晉不知道 但是你去的時候 人家有跟你說 穿上衣服穿得很好嗎沒有 沒這樣說 不好意思沒這樣說喔我台南喔 台南跟你去那個七角啦七角的面積是110平方公里啦已經有晉天了 你知不知道多少差不多15平方公里 等於說一個七角裡面有15%的晉天"},{"start":23861.234,"end":23876.702,"text":"辦門叫這兩個太陽七個叫這三個太陽你一日去的時間你六人道的客廳四十一度了我十二月要十二月去的時候你六人道的客廳三十九度了三個太陽一個七個已經達到超過一個幾個月我們台南市已經超過四點二幾個月這樣還要做"},{"start":23891.394,"end":23899.599,"text":"要再做在出現文總統的臨來 給我起訴一件道理91頁現主席 這裡的太平洋發電廠會長會長 有人帶路照你知不知道你知不知道 你不知道啦 帶什麼路照 路詐啦"},{"start":23920.979,"end":23946.353,"text":"一餘兩三次啊啊為什麼 因為待了啊 冰頭太陽已經大了啊學校簽20年 跟大學簽20年 你們什麼人敢去跟他學沒有人敢去跟他學檢察官也不一定跟他學的學的也沒有的 對不對因為那種菜 茄子嘛 茄子菜好啊我如果有機會做市長 我會跟他學"},{"start":23948.442,"end":23964.375,"text":"因為當今時 你要跟人們在地來檢估就是說 會不會已經戴路照了他路照戴好了 賺一條錢 給我賣你你來做光電 光電沒有違法囉你來做還給我戴了 光電就在路照上面你起來的年齡 到現在 光電的幣額這麼多你還沒有反駁"},{"start":23976.65,"end":23977.931,"text":"我希望你做一個重檢討要重量關節"},{"start":23990.512,"end":24010.98,"text":"第二就是在申請的時候 要通過一規範你經濟部不是嗎 地方譴責 地方譴責就會太狡猾了接受性招待 有來偶世的 有來怕事那樣的 我幫你通過若沒有 我幫你擱置 是這樣 台南市局長那一關是這樣來的你中央沒有要制定一個名堪 你完全沒有做名堪去規範"},{"start":24019.011,"end":24033.641,"text":"所以責性 台南市 地方這的官員 會當最下級手我先可以報告 委員兩句話就好第一 我一天去那現場 我第一句說若是每天都存在這裡的損失 我都不用來了 我知道有很多問題第二 我覺得說"},{"start":24036.503,"end":24048.855,"text":"現在經濟部跟郵輪、郵輪、郵輪、郵輪所寬的那個 所安省的那些 稍看 要去檢討沒必要的 困難的不要去做 檢討所才去做我了解你去看的意思就是有剛才你說的爐渣 我要求 現在我們在檢查單位 主動調查"},{"start":24058.587,"end":24078.798,"text":"最主要的是因為 要給他背書 不是針對他背書啦 就是說這張被告合法啦 咱們坦白講啦阿你這樣我就不用去寫了 我知道有問題阿你知道有問題為什麼不辦啦 問題是什麼不辦啦我明明有公私的方法啊 第一要透明 第二要幹法你不知道兩千 兩千年一陣"},{"start":24083.376,"end":24090.5,"text":"全世界黑麵皮露有幾隻你知道嗎?全台灣兩百隻經過我們台南這裡做雲吶在燒雲吶的時候都流一瓦給黑麵皮吃叫你說雲吶燒完我會拼我還要再拼喔?他沒有,他等黑麵皮剝回去拼好之後他才開始整理雲吶還要定期到九年就對了,到今年,年初了"},{"start":24114.079,"end":24135.187,"text":"都中立請九百八十八隻非常好 幾年 比幾年就對了加三百五十五隻 全世界來 整個國家 統計起來但是 全世界加三百五十五隻台灣 減九十一隻台南市 減一百九十一隻為甚麼 因為電競有夠多現在屏東 加九十六隻"},{"start":24143.442,"end":24144.403,"text":"委員長施政報告並備質詢：完整會議"},{"start":24165.114,"end":24174.863,"text":"你從來沒有關閉到當歐美南北這麼熱鬧不再來的時候就是表示台灣這塊土地已經倒下去了例外我們都很清楚了我們為什麼不能停下來這塊土地 對不對再來就是說在這樣的過程我們現在才有一張"},{"start":24190.882,"end":24191.262,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":24222.019,"end":24248.077,"text":"還是要施政?主席委員 我請署長跟委員請講 你在總結的資料 我馬上來處理每一套都有報啦嘛 齁在辦公啦 你們的分家人 方官署的署長 也說不宜再開花了啦所以我才跟你說 總量管制 要怎麼管制 你們鑽進去拖下去 我不會跟你介入啦 我不會說 欸我到這裡不用用了 我不會這樣啦"},{"start":24250.27,"end":24255.434,"text":"全民去檢討我請教你 從頭到尾幾幾天 無論大在北大在南大在東 都是你的住民 是不是這樣 喝水的時候 您說50公分要補助"},{"start":24274.687,"end":24290.971,"text":"老總統聖殿下說過去30天做不完事我30天做好了各位台南鄉親從今天開始我們台南市不會再喝水了我還是特地再喝?民宿有減酒啦後面民宿減酒喝水喝得比較高你知不知道後面哭啦我在今年八月我已經控告了我不知道你們有辦嗎?地檢署有辦嗎?"},{"start":24303.652,"end":24309.255,"text":"叫你說不用喝水,那叫什麼?提供綁花綁花啦綁花啦綁花啦綁花啦綁花"},{"start":24325.401,"end":24326.562,"text":"這不是經濟沒做的"},{"start":24354.005,"end":24370.318,"text":"不是經濟補償 大家有錢有錢有錢 大家有錢有錢 這不是我做的這樣主委會做的 主委會說也不是我做的大家能拿到2億所以我還去賭啦今天我查看誰做的啦那後裔人如果要控體恨沒白費啦沒白費啦我問你"},{"start":24376.75,"end":24391.734,"text":"後果會大後果來 一定會改變他現在修補這塊有百天喔這20公尺有百五 頭正後面沒百這樣要怎樣你不要去看一看 不然檢察官會在討論要慶慶慶慶我告訴你 整層就在150公分150公分"},{"start":24403.08,"end":24405.581,"text":"巴掌司的帖文我給你看"},{"start":24453.787,"end":24454.828,"text":"謝謝謝忠建委員的質詢 謝謝卓院長的備詢"},{"start":24464.127,"end":24467.708,"text":"接下來我們請登記第16位李博義委員質詢好"},{"start":24493.932,"end":24513.466,"text":"來有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢理委好院長先跟你抱歉我們今天程序委員會 呃 行政院的預算再度被退回"},{"start":24514.707,"end":24527.397,"text":"但是在從7月16休會到今天正式可以在這邊再質詢院長其實這段時間博弈在地方上也做了很多的努力包含跟行政院團隊"},{"start":24529.338,"end":24531.862,"text":"新台17縣在去年度院長還沒有上任的時候國防部提出比原本多14億"},{"start":24546.101,"end":24565.532,"text":"必須要高雄市政府來代差代鑒包含新建新的戰備跑道包含中正哨口等等這一些那我在這個暑假期間那也拜託我們公共工程委員會陳金德主委以及李毅德副主委"},{"start":24566.36,"end":24583.48,"text":"很順利在9月5號跟9月18號的現刊分別解決了幾個問題那現在甚至國防部也允許高雄市政府把工建計畫不用重送用抽換的方式"},{"start":24584.14,"end":24600.071,"text":"直接跟國防部這邊來抽換把14億裡面國防部需要的戰備跑到28億已經抽換完畢那目前就等國防部這邊快速來送給行政院我們的目標還是期待在2026年這一條路能"},{"start":24602.832,"end":24627.378,"text":"能如期同車在這邊感謝行政院各部會的協調包含工程會跟高雄市政府還有國防部院長這個但是這個也是明年度的預算跟委員報告那個有關我們那個需要待拆待建的那個公共建設計畫也就是我們的那個南段二期的那一個幾個需求項目9月23號已經"},{"start":24630.49,"end":24654.818,"text":"完成抽換成報行政院審議了9月23已經成報了謝謝部長你請回這個在過去其實我處理這條新台17縣處理了十幾年了沒有那麼簡單那感謝行政院的這個橫向的聯繫很快的協調好但是我們還是需要謝謝委員的關心讓我們可以跟地方政府一起合作第二個感謝院長本人"},{"start":24655.798,"end":24655.938,"text":"是的"},{"start":24680.766,"end":24701.763,"text":"這兩個預算在這邊感謝院長對於國家重點領域校際研教園區的這個支持高雄其實正在轉變高雄其實正在脫胎換骨高雄因為台積電加上AI還有種種的產業高雄其實正在轉變我們需要的是大量的建設"},{"start":24703.405,"end":24716.697,"text":"但是在新任交通部長來之前前任交通部長其實有到我辦公室希望可以溝通一個高雄方案也就是高鐵要延伸到屏東"},{"start":24717.833,"end":24741.692,"text":"要不要經過高雄車站的這個方案2019年行政院蘇院長來到屏東宣布這個左營方案那希望這個左營方案他可以讓高鐵從左營直接進入屏東不用經過高雄車站不用在明娃不用在淺頓那用比較少的經費可以讓這個高鐵進入屏東"},{"start":24743.356,"end":24748.057,"text":"但是前部長到我辦公室的時候鐵道局拿了"},{"start":24749.858,"end":24772.595,"text":"高雄方案說要淺遁要明挖我想要確認一下這件事情有沒有這一個高雄計畫目前我看到部長一上任同學很認真喔直接跑到屏東宣布這個屏東六塊處車站等等的可能什麼時候要興建我要問的是為什麼高雄計畫又重新被拿出來討論"},{"start":24774.844,"end":24802.145,"text":"容我講一下在高鐵公司成立的時候在做這些高鐵站計畫的時候2000年以前1998年合訂高鐵在臺灣西部有哪幾個站當時的高雄市市長吳敦義因為會經過高雄車站附近會拆到一些房子所以高鐵當時只到左營站"},{"start":24803.274,"end":24828.303,"text":"在2010年的時候國民黨執政當時正在做這個高雄的鐵路地下化的工程的時候陸正思曾經有一個公文我秀給大家看當時的交通部長毛志國當時的交通部次長葉匡石後來10年後還被我們韓院長請來高雄當副市長的葉匡石"},{"start":24829.554,"end":24857.526,"text":"他一輩子也沒有想到當時他否定這個計畫讓高鐵進入高雄車站供軌的這個計畫沒有進一步研究高鐵有沒有辦法進入高雄車站這個計畫有一天會在擔任高雄市副市長被拿出來修理兩次機會一個國民黨的市長一個國民黨的部長都沒有讓高鐵進入高雄車站甚至延伸到屏東"},{"start":24859.022,"end":24886.117,"text":"如果這個政策是確定的如果這個政策確定高鐵要進入高雄車站要延伸到屏東請問這10多年來鐵路地下化造成高雄交通黑暗期再加上高鐵如果要進入高雄車站再一次民挖或者是再一次用潛盾對高雄地區造成的影響誰該負責請問"},{"start":24889.801,"end":24905.953,"text":"我們要怎麼樣把它做好可以降低到影響高雄市民我重點答覆委員之後請部長來說明現在過去我們一段時間我們所了解的是左營方案是整個在決定高鐵南征的時候左營方案是"},{"start":24906.753,"end":24922.768,"text":"之前的一個決定但是之後地方上有很多不同的意見包括左營方案它的優劣性以及現在的高雄車站不是左營車站是高雄車站是相當大過去在興建的時候就是為了高鐵而做的"},{"start":24923.348,"end":24948.736,"text":"那所以現在有人討論到說用高鐵進到高雄車站的高雄方案目前是這個樣子那細節的部分我請部長來回答部長請你回應跟委員報告確實當時在2007年的時候高鐵是要進到高雄車站的當時是有這樣子的方案但是在2010年的時候像委員剛剛所說的由毛志國部長當時就覺得不可行所以就是"},{"start":24949.176,"end":24973.088,"text":"不可行的原因說這個營運規劃這個公文慢慢幫我秀一下不可行的原因說高鐵是BOT啦這個台鐵跟台鐵的這個延伸方案不一樣啊隨便找一個理由啦是所以當時就沒有延伸到高雄站這是一個非常可惜的過程所以在當時我們的高鐵就沒有進到高雄"},{"start":24974.028,"end":24999.387,"text":"到了現在大家在討論所謂的這個延伸屏東的方案的時候就有兩個案子一個是從左營走高屏二塊同樣的路廊直接到屏東這是一個方案另外一個方案就是回復到過去2007年當時所決定的高雄方案那第一個方案為什麼不可行呢因為我們有找這個高鐵的原廠也就是山林重工他們來做過評估他們評估的結論是不可行"},{"start":25000.188,"end":25016.91,"text":"幾個原因第一個對於未來的整個高鐵的整體的轉運可能會有相當負面的影響第二個如果是從左營拉到屏東的話車子沒有足夠的機場可以轉彎的狀況底下可能是倒退路啦倒著走到屏東所以他們認為不可行"},{"start":25017.33,"end":25043.526,"text":"那回到高雄方案我剛剛必須要說的是說2007年確實我們有設定高雄方案2010年雖然停止了但是我們的高雄車站現在的高雄火車站當時的設計就是要讓高鐵跟台鐵一起進入這個車站所以未來這個車站我想委員應該很清楚這個車站目前的建設是非常大的規模上面還會有一個商業大樓還會有一個飯店部長同學我跟你講的是"},{"start":25044.707,"end":25068.752,"text":"我們現在如果再挖一次對高雄市民需要一個交代為什麼你當初在做這個鐵路地下化的時候沒有一併做這個是誰做的決定請說明清楚第二個再次影響到高雄市民的生活的時候你要怎麼樣把這個傷害降到最低影響降到最低而這個都是補破網補誰的破網"},{"start":25072.353,"end":25097.128,"text":"當時2010年鐵路地下化的時候就不應該沒有進入高雄車站的這個政策是對於高雄市來說如果當時在鐵路地下化同時做高鐵的延伸的話其實是一次工不用兩次工那當時委員也有修出當時的文件就是毛志國部長當時做下這樣子的決定那確實在這十幾年的過程當中我們看到高雄車站周邊的沒落也是一個很大的問題"},{"start":25097.828,"end":25117.799,"text":"我們看到高雄車站的運量在全台灣目前已經排名到了第11大家的想像是臺北跟高雄應該是最大的兩站目前高雄站已經退到了第11名其實高雄車站要活絡齁其實臺鐵在高雄做的每一個車站它的區間的這些區間車其實我們都認為建議可以加密齁"},{"start":25119.099,"end":25141.588,"text":"這個部分我會努力那另外針對工程的部分不要造成大家的黑暗期就是我們會大量用淺燉不會用明蛙明蛙會減少會減到最低就我目前看到高雄計畫裡面左營的明蛙確實就影響到左營目前的崇德路所以這一個部分我們還要必須那這個部分我會跟委員來協商看怎麼樣減少影響"},{"start":25143.769,"end":25169.77,"text":"好那另外我們會用半半施工的方式也就是說東半邊在施工的時候左半邊通行左半邊施工的時候右半邊通行那讓他半半施工的時候對交通影響會降到最低同學我真的對你比較好讓你回答很多時間快不夠了接下來我講一句話就好了我到高雄的時候有人就跟我提到說如果10多年前這個案子實施的話第一個已經接近完工而且預算不用這麼多"},{"start":25170.791,"end":25171.031,"text":"還有為了當時錯誤的政策"},{"start":25201.172,"end":25212.749,"text":"公開的說明會跟市民朋友說明清楚這個我會舉辦接下來幾個小的啦這個高雄方案進去之後可能上千億這個兩億就好了"},{"start":25214.848,"end":25241.577,"text":"現在臺北車站進到高鐵第9車廂外面直接下這個人行道首扶梯就會接到臺北捷運我在8月的時候也會勘了這個高雄的高鐵其實高雄捷運也都做好這個空間來準備了那高鐵目前的評估還有很多的顧慮希望部長跟院長這邊也一併可以做這一個考量那第三個"},{"start":25242.617,"end":25271.011,"text":"高雄現在的轉變非常的大我來我秀一下這個演唱會最近的演唱會包含火星人包含艾爾頓牆包含One OK Rock Coldplay最新的今天公佈的Blackpink的Lisa也要來那這一些還有高雄現在加上台南的這個半導體的製造業TSMC的這個產值都已經超過新竹"},{"start":25272.162,"end":25300.672,"text":"我要告訴院長跟部長高雄機場不需要幾百億的擴建那個是幾百億的事情高雄機場需要的是培養運量把A350的飛機調來高雄開始培養可以直飛歐美或直飛澳洲的這些班機開始培養高雄機場的運量有運量之後這個機場才需要做更大的航廈的興建等等"},{"start":25302.455,"end":25303.275,"text":"先爭取國航,可以安排一架A350來高雄"},{"start":25324.747,"end":25352.089,"text":"那捷運紫縣也在9月19的時候高雄市政府已經送到交通部我們進一步可能要做這些先行規劃以及可能性評估的核定這個請交通部也加速規劃最後我只剩下一分鐘來講臺灣跟中國的房市的問題我有看到我們央行總裁也在場那先恭喜這一次央房的第7波信用管制應該會成功"},{"start":25355.016,"end":25365.341,"text":"應該會讓整個交易量停下來應該房價短期內也不會有再漲價的問題但是我在這裡要提醒2021年到2024年"},{"start":25368.086,"end":25384.275,"text":"一共34萬實價登錄的預售屋裡面有多少是楊總裁認為必須要給教訓的但是有多少是無辜要換屋有多少是家裡有繼承房產"},{"start":25384.835,"end":25385.175,"text":"請正視這些人"},{"start":25414.057,"end":25415.599,"text":"謝謝李博義委員質詢：謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第17號賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":25438.517,"end":25446.579,"text":"謝謝韓院長主席以及各位先進我們有請行政院的卓院長再請卓院長備詢內委員好內委員長你好你今天很紅"},{"start":25464.332,"end":25472.798,"text":"從早上到現在人都沒有你的幕僚告訴你為什麼會花這麼多錢早上一問下午到現在沒有答案"},{"start":25494.366,"end":25499.915,"text":"委員應該沒有看早上我對其他委員的答覆啊我一分鐘讓我答覆可嗎"},{"start":25508.763,"end":25532.02,"text":"520之後 裡面還在整修所以我在6月中下旬開始才陸續有一些會議在那裡開6月中到7月以後我才進去沒有人在說你浪費你做的時間不多可是大家問一個堂堂的行政院長過去的宰相結果"},{"start":25533.421,"end":25553.588,"text":"結果你一個月幾度墊你知道嗎?幾度墊你知道嗎?你也不知道?都這樣為AZ跟現在的某人做功課兩萬度墊兩萬度墊是什麼概念?所以我說你知不知道我們現在平均我的懷疑是你聽我講我聽我講好不好我講我再讓你講"},{"start":25555.762,"end":25579.214,"text":"你知不知道平均普羅大眾 老百姓 平均是多少 幾度點我告訴你這個極端值每個月超過一千度的 佔兩趴 兩趴 萬度 兩趴百分之二 我們院長是兩萬度"},{"start":25582.762,"end":25609.245,"text":"一個月兩萬度就是這個最高兩趴的二十倍大家看得到嗎?我們院長到底是在哪裡啊?在分店啊?在雲端啊?我以為你知道那裡面有四棟建築物嗎?怎麼會第二件事情?好像是我一個人用了兩萬度電一樣"},{"start":25612.282,"end":25616.045,"text":"是我一個人用2萬度電嗎?對,那裡有4棟建築物這個是...不正確的訊息"},{"start":25632.095,"end":25645.266,"text":"不要用這種簡單的數學喔 看一個事實的狀況 那裡有4棟建築物 裡面居住的人不是只有我一個人不是4個房間啊 4棟建築物 報告委員不是4個房間 4棟建築你認為兩萬度不會太多嗎"},{"start":25659.116,"end":25659.696,"text":"請你跑啦 我給你個數字啦"},{"start":25678.15,"end":25689.036,"text":"那裡面有4棟建築物住了非常非常多的人不是我一個人委員不能把狀態停在這種錯誤的資訊不能把狀態停在這種不真實的資訊"},{"start":25704.264,"end":25707.387,"text":"這個題目我問過你 我還問過陳建仁在今年3月 我問了陳建仁 我說 欸 院長啊5月1號勞動節要不要不要一國兩制啊"},{"start":25726.223,"end":25752.538,"text":"有些人就可以放假 有些人不放假 多麼的不方便我們要不要一國一制 統統放假 你知道陳建聯怎麼跟我講 我很高興 我覺得不錯 我最少幫大家都得分了 對不對 看起來今年的5月1號就要放樓 誰說沒有啊 NO SUIT 明年5月1號 也NO SUIT"},{"start":25753.939,"end":25770.034,"text":"我去查了一下內政部的長官 相關的長官還告訴我們相關人員說因為左院長沒有交代啊左院長只要交代就放假啦請問你 全國是不是希望5月以後全面放假請問你要不要全面放假"},{"start":25770.865,"end":25772.647,"text":"明年你不放啊什麼時候有共識什麼時候會有共識請問你們 你的態度怎麼樣"},{"start":25794.741,"end":25804.532,"text":"你可不可以很害羞很害羞啊你今天比如說你要來上班旁邊你的同仁替你開車的他照理講他要放啊"},{"start":25815.237,"end":25831.962,"text":"請人事長說明一下公務員的放假方式委員報告一下啦因為在整個假日期紀念日實施放法來政博要去考慮這次美女沒有放假的原因主要就是"},{"start":25832.862,"end":25840.767,"text":"我剛說過已經達到我們放假的上限這是一個再來社會的構思公務員服務法我們放假加上週休二日是一百一十五到一百一十六天"},{"start":25862.102,"end":25878.286,"text":"樂見其成 非常正面 讓我以為要放了 結果不是啊 我認爲陳院長也一定經過多方的考量 跟社會的溝通 所以今年的5月1號我們秉持一樣的溝通 繼續進行溝通有沒有機會"},{"start":25890.163,"end":25908.888,"text":"有沒有機會放假如果社會共識都非常高我們可以尋社會共識都非常高我講太快你又說我獨裁我講太慢你又說我拖拉我到現在為止沒有講過你獨裁的我不知道你這次獨裁要怎麼來的"},{"start":25911.385,"end":25913.026,"text":"我不能講太快否則我會獨斷我必須要跟社會溝通"},{"start":25933.766,"end":25962.923,"text":"我沒有講的話你不能塞到嘴巴裡面好我收回來阿我不能講太快我不能獨斷我必須跟社會講好來那個任市長可以回去了雖然我知道你想表現但以後再來來我們來看賴總統說AI就是國力我暫時把台灣造成人工智慧之道沒有人團隊結果呢亞洲是小龍各位看起來看一看喔"},{"start":25965.081,"end":25968.824,"text":"希望我們一起看得起台灣好不好我們一起看得起台灣啊"},{"start":25992.383,"end":26002.579,"text":"你知道國科會有發展一個LM叫泰德語言模型"},{"start":26005.68,"end":26034.278,"text":"你知道嗎 結果人家Loyal Qualification Results就是律師的資格的檢查看看我的AI的程度怎麼樣我們的準確力怎麼樣結果台灣37.8倒數同位這個主委請吳主委說明主委你貴姓吳主委是是 謝謝你看得怎麼樣"},{"start":26035.657,"end":26038.579,"text":"第一名這一家這第一家是台灣的公司台灣發電料"},{"start":26065.747,"end":26077.84,"text":"這個代表什麼意思我們整體的國力AI的國力輸給亞洲其他的山小龍第二個我們國科會發展的態度輸給台灣台灣國內的成家"},{"start":26087.187,"end":26106.054,"text":"國外的AI硬體其實都是台灣做的那我們自己的應用我們現在才剛開始要起步要發展所以將來我們會快速的追趕你要不要弄個KPI啊院長我問你啦給你企圖心好不好你什麼時候可以超過香港"},{"start":26119.952,"end":26130.355,"text":"委員我們的硬體製造相當的好但這個軟體的部分我們現在在全力發展我們的軟體所以我說我們要進入一個主權AI的應用時代這個就是主權AI的一個具體表現"},{"start":26135.677,"end":26148.409,"text":"我們不如亞洲三小龍我們take whatever輸給國內廠家再介紹兩年超過韓國對嗎?韓國15名你25名你說韓國?對韓國我們已經急起直追兩年可以嗎?三年"},{"start":26162.952,"end":26164.074,"text":"麻煩請央行總裁請備詢"},{"start":26190.367,"end":26218.782,"text":"我對楊總裁的學經歷專業雖然我是反對黨我都講他好話他的構想就是人高於老實掉底緊緊扒拼不敢忤逆長官他不是這樣 大家感覺是什麼這次很奇怪 左院長8月29號說不會有現代力就是聽他講 我應該要看中"},{"start":26222.744,"end":26243.894,"text":"賴總統9月1號也說沒有現代力我不管細節啦齁我就要講一個東西你們兩位當然就是希望資金寬鬆然後百業發達然後大家有機會談資金流動多 流動性嘛 liquidity大家都知道兩岸總是這個東西"},{"start":26246.756,"end":26269.882,"text":"結果我們總裁碰一個人就說叫核彈級的信用官職這裡面一定有原因以你這麼溫和的人這麼溝語的人這麼老實的人怎麼會碰一個說我要經說正面打臉左院長跟蔣總統不是跟那個賴總統不是蔣總統我們上台賴總統不是蔣總統"},{"start":26276.178,"end":26280.648,"text":"好 你要不要講一下 你看到什麼一定要做這個東西 看到什麼"},{"start":26283.511,"end":26286.193,"text":"我首先來跟委員報告"},{"start":26311.65,"end":26319.859,"text":"都已經超﹐已經到達這個百分之三十﹐三十﹐欸 百分之他到臨界點了已經到警戒點了途徑"},{"start":26321.457,"end":26347.279,"text":"土地建築加貸款37點多了他30%了所以呢一些的銀行就採取了現代令當時市場是跟他們講就是說這個就是現代令這個是市場給他的一個名稱但是呢這個是銀行本身他的一個自主性的一個"},{"start":26348.649,"end":26374.684,"text":"一個現代令我們說現代令但是這個不是政府這個不是政府說我們呢就是說政府呢是把它推推推動的一個現代令不是這個是銀行他的自主的管理因為他要到達那個C0了沒有沒有等一下好不好等一下你的意思就是說你看到了銀行給房地產的"},{"start":26376.345,"end":26377.787,"text":"不是不是不是不是"},{"start":26384.787,"end":26387.769,"text":"為什麼你要祭出這麼強烈的信用管制你還沒回答問題"},{"start":26413.629,"end":26418.131,"text":"我希望你長話短說是不是你看到了如果沒有出售有可能引起"},{"start":26444.315,"end":26450.463,"text":"我想是這樣子啦 第一個就是說我們的資源要合理的"},{"start":26452.096,"end":26480.69,"text":"分配第一個我們的信用的資源要合理的分配這是第一點第二點呢如果說我們呢我們的資源沒有做合理的分配太過集中這個的時候如果沒有去注意它的時候呢很容易會就像日本或是美國日本的一個泡沫還有就是還有次貸風暴就是這樣子但是呢我們事實上就是說所以簡單來講就是你想心裡想如果我沒有出手"},{"start":26481.94,"end":26503.676,"text":"台灣可能不如日本跟美國的次貸風暴不過這個是一個時間的問題啦如果我們現在來出手的時候呢 那麼這個可能就不會發生那如果說我們太接近去出手的時候呢 這個泡沫會爆掉所以這個是一個時間的距離的一個問題啦"},{"start":26507.978,"end":26509.619,"text":"你聽到說有中型的銀行45間 差不多有問題 趕快出所 有這件事情嗎"},{"start":26531.56,"end":26554.845,"text":"你再說一次 你有聽到中型的銀行因為過度的放貸快要出問題了 沒有就說他快要出問題 沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有說他要出問題 沒有沒有這回事 我們只是說如果說大家都是到達這個C0的時候呢 那這樣的話會"},{"start":26556.425,"end":26558.047,"text":"請問大家有沒有到達西林?"},{"start":26569.349,"end":26579.656,"text":"都是到26、27 因為他到28的時候就已經很高了 因為他會徐林是多少 30他到了28啦 28、27、26、25都有啦 只是說有一些家是這樣子啦"},{"start":26589.404,"end":26614.532,"text":"剛才有民進黨的委員提到的你這裡面會不會有濫殺無辜我想委員這樣的懷疑是合理的啦是合理的但是我也要跟委員藉這個機會來跟委員報告事實上我們持續的在聆聽在聽取各方的意見"},{"start":26616.956,"end":26635.672,"text":"我們如果說必要的時候 我想我們對於那些需要協助的那些我們所稱的無辜的 我想我們可能會推出相關的協助措施或是排除條款"},{"start":26637.67,"end":26660.535,"text":"主要就是開選期你等於說有一個補救的配套措施要出來對不對那個也不是說補救啦那也可以說啦是那個什麼配套措施好了阿什麼時候可以出來我想我們會盡快一個月內可以嗎一個月內可以嗎不用那麼久我們不用那麼久"},{"start":26666.226,"end":26682.141,"text":"我跟委員報告 如果說有一些的人需要來協助的時候我個人都覺得盡快越快越好這樣能夠協助他們我這樣子是不是可以你講的我給你做一個小節一個月一個禮拜以內"},{"start":26687.246,"end":26714.261,"text":"提出相關的配套特殊需要的情況我們專案處理這樣對嗎你可以接受嗎拜託委員 這個讓央行能夠充裕的時間 妥善的因應收集各方的反應之後他才能夠做出整套的 合理的制度院長這回過了 你比較專業的齁這個總裁啊你剛剛講的話 我能不能再做一個小節"},{"start":26715.578,"end":26735.621,"text":"就是楊金榮總裁看到了水位不斷的接近天花板怕引起本土性類似日本美國的時代風暴所以不得不痛下殺手"},{"start":26737.197,"end":26766.121,"text":"這個講得太嚴重了太嚴重了 這個不是說馬上就會發生的問題啦我們就說如果說能夠給我們比較長的時間來做一些事的話總裁啊 我是替你講話啊因為你這一出手得罪院長啊 得罪總統啊來給你同情寒鬆咧不會 我在上次的院會當中我第一時間我說要感謝中央銀行第一時間提醒航庫跟社會大眾我們是非常肯定的"},{"start":26766.861,"end":26784.786,"text":"總裁請問請問請問謝謝我請教韓國瑜院長不好意思我很少請教你請問你經濟部的國智慧部長今天不來有沒有跟你請教阿他有什麼偉大的公司沒有"},{"start":26791.633,"end":26815.897,"text":"不是不是 講一下 我了解一下 他是什麼偉大的公司 他今天不來跟賴司法委員報告時間暫停 郭勤輝部長因公赴日本訪問日本你知道哪裡嗎目前沒有 我只知道他的時間院長啊 你人太好啦 你說用愛啊 對對他啊 他們吃定你啊 他是雄本啊"},{"start":26816.724,"end":26826.386,"text":"對 跟委員報告 部長去熊本 因為熊本的重大的投資這個台積電也沒有去啊 不僅僅這個禮拜他不來喔這個禮拜五他也不來喔 國智會帶頭藐視國會 那個左院長啊 你前幾天才說喔"},{"start":26837.662,"end":26866.775,"text":"才說要各部會首長都要來備詢對我說除了陪總統接見重要的外賓或者有特別重要的行程那這一件郭部長在早先就跟我說了這個很重要嗎重要到比來國會備詢重要喔國會備詢當然重要國會這麼重要的地方我們有次長代理這個也是次長出國就好啦次長代理這個也是正常的程序他是管情報的他對一定都不懂啊你叫他來就不好"},{"start":26868.601,"end":26897.099,"text":"叫來的母豪阿天瑞這麼簡單嗎我們的部長、次長都是在專業上跟委員就教的你不要講外行話啦次長都有分工的啦請問你是不是管國貿的貿易的對吧是是嘛如果今天問CPTPP你可以回答問ECPA你可以回答國安會可以回答但是我問你電力的話阿你馬上你就不知道"},{"start":26898.257,"end":26903.991,"text":"對不對 這個東西這個 院長阿要求 不會所長阿"},{"start":26905.35,"end":26931.117,"text":"不要請你的假借出國這個容許我也代替郭部長 再向委員跟院長致歉確實是非常重要的行程今天也有一位首長也是請假但我們認為說 院會比較重要還是請他留在這裡但是郭部長這個是之前跟日方就安排好的行程早先就跟我講過了我們都很尊敬 都很愛在喊院長以後他們不會送請假 不要隨便准了"},{"start":26932.366,"end":26938.27,"text":"我當年當召委的時候在法治委員會游錫堃總統和秘書長來跟我請假我就不准阿理由不充分阿他說那個中藥我說來立法院跟中藥也面對人民欸"},{"start":26962.125,"end":26963.345,"text":"out of China, out of Taiwan"},{"start":26987.802,"end":26988.683,"text":"美國跟中國在fight"},{"start":27014.614,"end":27016.235,"text":"對不起委員不是這樣的講法這樣對郭部長也不公平"},{"start":27044.06,"end":27062.893,"text":"所以我要特別提醒院長對於你的部會首長不能給人家施定你隨便給你糊弄一下這個只有兩個可能第一個他不願意來面對立法院第二個可能你認為他的運營的技巧不好最好他不要來"},{"start":27064.88,"end":27068.302,"text":"一百一十二年 去年到現在我們給他多少錢給三千億"},{"start":27094.217,"end":27121.105,"text":"給3千億然後現在還要給最佳金預算1千億還有明年度的增加預算1千億 2千億不到兩年的時間要5千億要這麼多錢還一定要錢所以我說這個陳社長就不能來嘛 郭部長先理人就知道了這塊的公司要怎麼做負債百分之九十幾"},{"start":27124.309,"end":27128.931,"text":"這個不是事實阿 這個不是事實阿"},{"start":27153.618,"end":27176.363,"text":"事實上電價要由這個月的這個電價審議會來決定請問你們要不要面對這樣子的一個社會側翼的罔工你們要把新聞搞我們沒有對立法院做這樣子的公職我立法院提前就我們要漲價這什麼跟什麼這叫PUA 情緒勒索PUA"},{"start":27180.765,"end":27203.44,"text":"PWA pick up artist這個是情緒勒索很嚴重這假訊息弄得然後我們就覺得奇怪我們在這邊政治澄清這個是假訊息沒有這樣的事情你看喔核能1.1塊錢再生能力5塊錢你台電跟你說的因為核電不用1塊錢生產成本多4塊"},{"start":27205.199,"end":27220.193,"text":"合費料的處理成本非常高委員你是財經的專家你應該算得出來這個成本不能只看1.1塊錢合費料的成本的處理是非常高的最後一個題目大法官現在快要變成過街老鼠了忍忍難打特別是會時的期次出來之後"},{"start":27232.554,"end":27256.571,"text":"那個法務部長可以上來齁你看大法官喔最近的人家的民調百分之五成以上對大法官獨立性沒有信心曾部長上來把法務部的好了大法官現在是社會最大的亂民他只要解釋一出啊社會必亂在109年的時候790號解釋令"},{"start":27260.166,"end":27283.538,"text":"大麻現在到處氾濫 大麻是二毒品對不對 二級毒品大麻是二毒品 到處氾濫 因為大麻跟790號解釋再過來國會擴圈 暫時出分 朝野不合再過來現在實行實現現在部長啊 你剛剛客氣的啦 我們就講一個"},{"start":27284.713,"end":27287.234,"text":"謝謝 謝謝時間已到 謝謝賴司法委員指定 謝謝卓院長的備詢"},{"start":27311.474,"end":27331.674,"text":"報告委員會現在在議場參觀的是日本關西大學老師帶著學生來中華民國立法院參觀我們掌聲來歡迎好不好歡迎哈歡迎大家日本來的好朋友謝謝報告委員會現在我們休息10分鐘休息之後繼續進行質詢現在休息好 委員長辛苦"},{"start":27936.038,"end":27936.739,"text":"主席大家好,我們請院長麻煩再請左院長備詢"},{"start":27970.174,"end":27998.846,"text":"徐委員好 院長好我們要推動高雄AI產業鏈打造AI首都 Tech高雄這個Tech包括TechnologyEconomyCharmIn Happy叫科技經濟魅力華誼的高雄我們其實很多數位韌性需要再加強比如說數位港口高雄有海港有空港但是現在數位港還沒有"},{"start":27999.625,"end":28025.695,"text":"所以我們希望說是不是有機會在高雄打造一個數位港口那他山之石可以工作新加坡這個案例其實我覺得還蠻不錯的就是吸引AI廠商建立金融特區跟舉辦國際會議加強AI投資我們現在有一些新創的預算但是是不是可以讓地方政府充分的利用我想我們"},{"start":28026.648,"end":28051.315,"text":"整個中央的團隊可以再做一個思考然後呢 亞洲資訊管理中心這個也是高雄的機會那包括麥斯國際會議這一些我想我們一樣一樣希望說可以來接近新加坡然後呢 來增加我們高雄的AI的能量那我想我們 院長你先休息我們請那個抒發部抒發部長"},{"start":28056.004,"end":28062.866,"text":"我想新加坡呢這個投資10億的新幣大概250億的台幣在AI的發展然後呢他們經發局也網羅全球的人才"},{"start":28085.212,"end":28106.968,"text":"包括在Google在新加坡本來有3座資料中心現在已經2024今年設了第4座然後在台灣Google在我們彰化為主有資料中心微軟主要在桃園現在有一所叫做亞馬遜他打算投資高雄"},{"start":28107.738,"end":28134.317,"text":"打算投資臺灣是不是有機會到高雄這個我們也希望說中央可以重視另外新加坡其實他很會吸收人才就是從科技準證吸引國際人才等等還有一些家庭辦公室等等有很多蠻好的措施我們想先請教一下就是海底電纜海纜霸權這個是一個最基本的條件"},{"start":28135.377,"end":28161.176,"text":"新加坡上岸的大概有400垂簾的流量香港大概不到200的流量台灣大概有109左右的流量那大部分都從北部的海南站上來北部有三個海南站那南部的仿山呢大概上來的流量大概不到一梯啦那我是希望說在高雄是不是有機會設立這個數位港口"},{"start":28163.397,"end":28191.567,"text":"也就是說讓全球的資訊資料大數據可以在高雄上岸這個部分速發部是不是有規劃是跟委員報告本部已經在9月2號邀請了相關部會包含國科會交通部和航港局港務公司以及高雄市政府召開座談會就是討論就是要這樣高雄海嵐的上岸地點那我們這個正在討論那我們會積極的進行這件事情"},{"start":28192.208,"end":28219.586,"text":"那什麼時候可以完成這個海欄站這個還在研商報告委員現在還沒有明確的日期估計的時間沒有按上現在都在跟時間賽跑是目前我們了解的狀況因為這個有很多的部會必須一起合作一起負責包含那個高雄市政府所以我們這個事情我們可能雙方都要再加把勁"},{"start":28220.362,"end":28249.511,"text":"現在跟院長報告希望說院長可以幫忙追進度啦就是我們現在高雄可能在興達電廠那邊有之前運煤的那個通道現在那個地方是一個很好的設置海底電纜站的地方那我們其實就是大概台電跟港務公司我們幾乎都溝通過跟速發部溝通過希望說這個部分速發部可以儘速進行也就是說你一個海纜登陸站先設定好"},{"start":28250.691,"end":28273.708,"text":"將來其他海南公司會陸續上來包括中華電信包括其他民間業者海南公司都讓他上來我希望說速發部就是用一個公平的原則以前主要上來的海南站幾乎都是中華電信但是其實我們希望說有多個不同的進來這樣子對我們的數位韌性對於我們的國安治安"},{"start":28274.528,"end":28279.551,"text":"蘇發部預定10月2日邀請7家國際海欄業者以及高雄市政府進一步開會,盡快加速這件事情還有蘇發部的100億的AI軟體"},{"start":28300.647,"end":28307.973,"text":"應用的資金主要是for我們國內的企業還是可以for地方政府還是可以for國外的企業"},{"start":28309.114,"end":28309.234,"text":"主要的對象"},{"start":28339.568,"end":28360.717,"text":"那臺灣人其實真的很強在那個臺灣人有一個做那個Living Optics那個AI相機其實你看包括輝達黃仁鑫臺灣人包括AMD蘇之鋒臺灣人包括梁建厚美超委"},{"start":28361.516,"end":28380.212,"text":"包括這一家這一家其實是臺灣人新創他這個其實用那個顏色可以做AI的辨識其實比人眼可能要強100倍這個其實他是人才但是其實他在英國然後被新加坡吸引去了所以就是說我們這一百"},{"start":28380.987,"end":28381.087,"text":"主席"},{"start":28404.21,"end":28425.444,"text":"當然我們不是都二人,但是好的我們可以學習,所以你吸收國際人才,包括你看像我們台灣人叫新加坡KiKi,我們也很沒差,所以這個部分可能數位發展部跟國發會,甚至跟經濟部,我們是不是有一個國內的類似新加坡的經濟發展局,"},{"start":28428.498,"end":28443.723,"text":"經濟發展局跟特務一樣很厲害全世界各地的展覽他都去看看一看以後有什麼好的展覽他都去拜訪拜訪覺得將來有機會就把它找進來找進來以後這個是一個很強的企業他還可以增加就業機會可以增加國內投資"},{"start":28445.143,"end":28446.203,"text":"發展AI高科技產業最重要的是人才"},{"start":28467.348,"end":28485.002,"text":"最優秀的人才都希望居住在一個美麗迷人而且宜居的城市高雄市一個美麗迷人而且宜居的城市所以我們認為說高雄市發展AI一個很好的地點那我們這個部分希望就是說我們跟"},{"start":28485.822,"end":28489.223,"text":"中央需要專門去找人才的單位,不管是經濟部、國發會、書發部也好,要有這樣的方向去找,甚至他100億基金裏否國內企業有沒有否地方政府"},{"start":28510.247,"end":28512.871,"text":"主要是給企業如果地方政府要發展這方面的專業但是呢這個地方政府呢"},{"start":28526.77,"end":28528.332,"text":"主要是讓這個在這個地方上可以發展得更好這個我們這樣子錢可以用嗎"},{"start":28549.932,"end":28575.726,"text":"跟委員報告一下 國發基金主要是依據產創條例只要符合上面的規定 個別企業也可以來申請我們的資金對 所以我就說其實我們在評分的時候 如果加上他跟地方政府合作可以可以增加他被我們核准的機會的話事實上地方政府他要發展會有角色 否則你就看不到地方政府的角色"},{"start":28576.539,"end":28590.013,"text":"我們可以看其實我們地方政府現在也很努力在招商我們可以看到那個輝達已經跟那個鴻海在我們高雄設台北灣所以那名字叫台北灣了那是設在高雄那包括"},{"start":28590.806,"end":28616.747,"text":"MD也要把研發中心進駐高雄所以我再一次的呼籲就是亞馬遜呢中央如果說有那個角度就是臺北當臺灣政治的首都高雄當臺灣AI的首都那現在高雄正好有這個條件不管是這一些科技大廠進駐那不管是我剛提到海南站我們希望說數化部可以盡快然後跟NCC能夠盡快把這個全世界你可以看新加坡那個網路"},{"start":28618.601,"end":28645.388,"text":"新加坡你看那個海底電纜那個多強啊真的是全世界海底電纜現在幾乎是第一強的大概是新加坡那我們台灣其實這是我們一個學習的方向所以從興達電廠這裡我們電也比其他地方好我們在這邊大廠也來了甚至高雄也不缺水整體上來高雄的環境都很好那包括這一陣子其實陳其邁市長也"},{"start":28646.533,"end":28646.753,"text":"臺灣最強的地方："},{"start":28676.986,"end":28704.688,"text":"世界很強的一個AI城市這個部分是不是院長可以認同謝謝委員 報告委員包括城市長他一直是非常努力在招商在引資 在留財的地方首長那高雄找一個適當的地點讓海嵐上岸所以包括委員剛剛所提的興達港在內我們還有幾個地方在評估"},{"start":28705.475,"end":28733.881,"text":"那10月2號我們會邀集7家的廠商再進一步來研商如何把高雄打造一個更符合現在所謂南部X狼帶能夠發展的一個以高雄為中心向上發展的一個基地那這個部分是符合國家重大建設的謝謝院長我的意思是說AI其實在高雄應該就是中央部會能夠幫忙強化你可以看到AI三立就是人力 算力 應用力那我們的"},{"start":28735.043,"end":28735.063,"text":"委員長"},{"start":28751.878,"end":28751.898,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":28768.181,"end":28768.261,"text":"﹚發言委員："},{"start":28797.538,"end":28804.059,"text":"在推動台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心的16項計畫裡面其中有一項就是希望在高雄在過去既有的基礎上面我們能夠建置一個資產管理的一個專區或是一個聚落一個園區"},{"start":28821.903,"end":28850.309,"text":"所以現在這個方向沒有問題我們已經在規劃的更細部的做法除了延續過去我們的既有的兩三年前會討論基礎以外我們最近還會把它加入有關私人銀行還有OBU還有一些其他的加速辦公室的機能在裡面這是以高雄為主是的這個非常重要所以這是包括AI的算力人力應用力整個軟體的發展的資源包括我們的"},{"start":28851.444,"end":28852.744,"text":"謝謝許思杰委員的質詢 也謝謝卓院長的備詢"},{"start":28881.138,"end":28896.934,"text":"接下來我們請登記第19位黃建豪委員質詢好 謝謝大會主席我們請這個左院長麻煩再請左院長備詢"},{"start":28907.574,"end":28929.52,"text":"委員好院長好院長我想首先一開始也要跟大家關心上禮拜我們想這個司法院判決出來說這個死刑存廢的問題當然這個司法院雖然說死刑何限但是呢他有要求說這個各審期何以庭法官的意見必須一致我想這是這樣在這個判決裡面講說法院組織法"},{"start":28933.271,"end":28959.921,"text":"沒有明定要何義廷法官一致才可以判處死刑這件事情在違反了正當法律程序原則那我想問一下如果所有的法官在三省裡面所有的法官都要判決一致他才符合正當法律程序原則嗎是這樣嗎依照憲法法庭的解釋出來的文字看出來他有這樣的"},{"start":28961.391,"end":28962.171,"text":"施政部長施政報告"},{"start":28985.74,"end":29004.275,"text":"那我想問說這個判決裡面講說相關機關兩年內要來提出相關的修法我想民調上看得很清楚84%、85%的民眾是反對廢除死刑的那今天如果相關機關要提出相關修法的話我想請問像行政院或法務部你們算不算相關機關"},{"start":29005.596,"end":29029.258,"text":"跟委員報告,這個一致覺得這個是屬於平易的審判的一個事務這是規定在法院指示法,所以相關機關應該有這個是屬於司法院主管的一個法規所以要有司法院來做一個主政所以到時候所謂的修法版本不會有你們院版的版本?會有行政院的版本?他那個事完修法後會會選行政院"},{"start":29030.273,"end":29031.273,"text":"法制作業提出意見"},{"start":29052.813,"end":29069.158,"text":"因為我想這件事情提出來雖然說這個死刑是核限的但其實本質上它就是實質廢死那北協這邊講啊這東西如果要送到立法院我要講一下你們是民選政府的官員我們是民意代表我們是投票投出來的"},{"start":29070.078,"end":29093.661,"text":"這麽多民眾去反對這件事情我真的不知道到時候受盡立法院裡面在委會審查也好在大院討論也好我們立法委員要怎麽去審這個法案不知道部長或院長你有什麽樣的想法可以教我們我們要怎麽樣去立這個法我們要怎麽樣把法律修到滿足大法官的這個判決才有辦法做到這個判決等於凌駕立法院等於凌駕行政院的版本"},{"start":29095.502,"end":29113.91,"text":"報告委員我並不認為現在等於就是把它說成是實質廢死用四個字來形容它原則上它是有條件的合憲我們在這個有條件合憲的框架底下把一些程序讓它完備完備程序的目的在於不要造成冤枉的判決"},{"start":29114.77,"end":29114.83,"text":"主席"},{"start":29131.717,"end":29133.798,"text":"律長一直覺得說要跟民眾跟立法院來溝通我就看看這兩年"},{"start":29158.547,"end":29183.11,"text":"到底要怎麼樣溝通才能讓民眾接受這樣子要立審一致決的這個版本另外我要提醒一件事情如果立審一致決才能夠符合所謂的這個正當法律程序原則的話那是不是其他的行者其他的法律相關的法律不是只有死刑那竊盜呢強盜呢這些東西是不是立審都要一致他才符合正當法律程序原則"},{"start":29183.524,"end":29185.286,"text":"政法律程序要在行訴訴訟法做規範"},{"start":29194.757,"end":29215.629,"text":"所以對於強盜或其他的刑事罪者是不是也都要立審都要一致他才能夠符合如果今天那個判處死刑罪那個最嚴重的那個罪行如果說法院要判處死刑的話那根據憲法法庭憲法第8號的一個規定一個判決的意旨這個是要一致決"},{"start":29216.269,"end":29216.689,"text":"法院的三級三審視"},{"start":29231.377,"end":29256.855,"text":"如果今天地方法院一審裡面光是這個一審裡面法官就覺得不需要的時候那他上訴到後面二審三審之後那你等於剝奪了二審三審的權利啦過去本來說二審三審可能跟一審有不一樣的結果那如果今天一審裡面就已經有說有法官不認為他被判處死刑是合理的如果有法官居然不該被判處死刑那所以後面的二審三審等於也被限制的相關權利了嘛"},{"start":29259.368,"end":29282.106,"text":"這部份檢察官受到判決會斟酌來做一個上訴不是,部長我請教一下專業問題如果今天一審有法官說認為這個罪犯他不能判處死刑所以一審的法官已經有這樣子的見解了那二審、三審的法官他即便覺得他有判處死刑的必要性是不是也無解"},{"start":29283.643,"end":29307.676,"text":"這個沒有這個問題啊這個一審的話如果說他應該判死刑沒有判死刑的話我想這個檢察官會請求上訴或被害人家屬會請求檢察官來做一個上訴我們會審酌那個檢察會審酌那個判決法官判決良形是否妥適所以你的立審一致決的這個部分是從一審裡面的法官到三審的法官都一致嗎還是不是對那個三審繼續維持嗎那個這是"},{"start":29310.638,"end":29316.408,"text":"憲判48號的一個判決意思是一二三審全部都要一致決對啊我就說要一致決"},{"start":29317.171,"end":29343.781,"text":"所以如果在地方法院在第一審的時候他就已經判決說不任務就是他已經沒有死刑有法官決定他不該判處死刑那到了檢察官如果覺得也因為過去是這樣嘛過去檢察官如果覺得這個人罪行重大但是在地方法院如果沒有判處他死刑所以上訴到這高院高院如果能夠判處他死刑那是不是就有這個死刑的問題那如果現在地方法院第一審的時候就沒有判處死刑了"},{"start":29344.955,"end":29370.651,"text":"檢察官即便上訴了到二審之後二審的法官也不能推翻一審這件事情吧這個不一定要看個案他那個做一審的話應該一致那個一致決是要判死刑才有一致決的一個問題如果不是判死刑就沒有一致決的一個問題就譬如說一個最終的一個犯刑如果說一審的法院是判無期徒刑如果說檢察不服或被害人的家屬或被家屬會請求前來上訴那個上訴到二審"},{"start":29371.471,"end":29400.573,"text":"那當然以現判第80號的一個判決的意思那二審的話要判死還要一致決所以何立廷的三個法官都要都要都要認為就是要判死這才可以部長這個當然我可以確認這個東西我想民眾都非常關心啊我才利用這麼多時間來跟你們就教我怕教徒很關心那個法務部也是非常關心這件事情二審如果說要三個二審的何立廷法官如果都決定要判處死刑如果啦假設某個個案是這樣子"},{"start":29402.025,"end":29422.933,"text":"但是一審的時候還沒有被判處執行那這件事情到底是有還是沒有他有沒有能不能被執行事務三會有這種情形啊那個二審的話如果說認為一審的判決是並會妥適或違法的話二審可以改判二審可以改判嗎可以改判所以他所謂的立審一次決就不存在了嗎"},{"start":29427.362,"end":29449.102,"text":"這個都要規定是要一字決才能判死刑啊但是如果說一字決他不判死刑的話我們還是可以上訴啊這個二審也是可以做一字決可以判死刑啊所以二審一字決如果判死刑就是可以判死刑跟一審無關不是因為不符一審的才有上訴到二審嘛二審審核如果一審的原來的判決是不非合法妥適"},{"start":29450.202,"end":29477.492,"text":"他這樣的話可以改判為死刑只要一字決可以改判為死刑好 部長謝謝那我們後面繼續來討論這個問題委員的意思是說一二三審都要一字決對啊判時都要一字決那這個說法是不是在判事第8號這個解釋文上面引申為這樣的說法我認為一定會引起很多的討論的那我們再看看很多的法律專家所以這個說法並不一定是正確並不一定是照他字面上的說法一定會引起討論的一定會修法還會再修吧好 謝謝"},{"start":29479.568,"end":29481.171,"text":"那接下來談論一下地方建設阿部長謝謝"},{"start":29483.257,"end":29509.465,"text":"我想我們也有關注我們行政院這個新任部長陳志凱部長的臉書啊我看到他前兩天發了一個這個reels講到說這個響應世界無車日呼籲民眾剛剛有個截圖我有截到呼籲民眾來乘坐公共運輸那剛好他所在的位置在台北捷運的藍線那剛好我想明年的預算裡面也編列了台中捷運的藍線我想部長也出生在台中也很清楚知道"},{"start":29510.385,"end":29538.47,"text":"今天如果身為一個臺中市民他想要響應這個部長的呼籲響應我們院長的呼籲來響應這個世界無車日但卻只有一條捷運可以搭乘的話那我想這個就很難去達到這個目標所以今天提到說我想翻到下一頁臺中市的整體捷運路網裡面先講這個捷運藍線當然預計明年要來動工但是我看目前送進來的這個院板的預算那當然現在程序委員會被退回但是目前的版本"},{"start":29539.462,"end":29539.642,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":29564.511,"end":29590.308,"text":"報告委員藍線的部分目前正在細部計畫的過程當中明年的預算的部分因為現在正在用地取得的部分用地取得本來就是地方政府會多一些所以它撥了八十幾億中央目前是只有五億但是未來整個中央跟地方分配的補助金額其實已經定下來了所以這個沒有問題到時候看工程走到什麼樣的進度中央該補助的金額絕對會到"},{"start":29591.469,"end":29592.87,"text":"章東都市計劃區只要有審定﹖綠線綜合規劃﹖就能抱怨來做相關的審查"},{"start":29621.026,"end":29640.155,"text":"中捷捷運綠線的部分往北是在我的選區在大坑往南是你以前部長以前的選區烏日到黃碩芳委員的選區到彰化等等的在這整條要做因為會卡到所謂的彰東都市計畫所以本期要問的是說有沒有解套的空間有沒有機會"},{"start":29641.275,"end":29662.857,"text":"是分段的這個分段通則的方式來執行因為我想北段這邊基本上沒有太大問題他就是很簡單的一個2點多公里的延伸線南段因為涉及到所謂都市計畫的問題那如果都市計畫因為山東都市計畫就如同剛剛前面黃秀芳議員黃秀芳委員所說的他從議員當到委員了這是自己還沒有成案"},{"start":29663.437,"end":29684.197,"text":"同樣的問題捷運綠線延伸從我當議員到我現在當委員也是一樣看到那個建物的預留線留在那邊但是一直沒有什麼新的進度所以本席今天要問的是說捷運綠線延伸這件事情會因為張東都市計畫而卡關嗎還是有其他的方式可以讓他部分的分階段來通車過去有沒有其他的捷運可以這樣做"},{"start":29688.024,"end":29705.283,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個部分因為我知道台中市這邊這一端大家希望說延伸北屯大坑的這一條線速度可以快一些但是因為往南往彰化那邊還有都市計畫的問題所以速度可能會緩一些慢一些"},{"start":29705.883,"end":29723.691,"text":"目前因為這條線的延伸正在綜合規劃的過程當中其實我們可以協助地方政府大家一起來討論一下有沒有可能分段來研究也就是說我們大坑段的部分的綜合規劃是不是我們走快一點可不可以分段來處理這個部分我們會來協助地方政府大家一起來討論看看"},{"start":29724.771,"end":29724.851,"text":"臺中捷運虧損狀態"},{"start":29741.921,"end":29769.669,"text":"捷運虧損從以前的台北捷運以前的高雄捷運大家都經歷過這段時間為什麼就是因為捷運那時候就一挑的時候它一定會虧損因為沒有人流嘛那今天我們希望入網能夠形成那今天明年來講捷運藍線即將動工那台中的捷運坦白講全國第二大城它的進度的確比其他城市慢了非常多所以我想問一下我們這個行政院這邊到底對於未來我們捷運包含說局限連結到中科連結到台中車站"},{"start":29770.689,"end":29790.494,"text":"還有捷運有條紅線整個崇德路這一條很重要的紅線因為我知道紅線目前本來預計10年後才要開始評估那我們也有爭取我想交通部也支持 行政院也支持希望讓這個捷運紅線能夠提早開始規劃我想問一下這兩個案子橘線跟紅線有沒有機會加速的來趕快來執行"},{"start":29793.497,"end":29821.289,"text":"跟委員報告目前局限我們正在可行性評估當中那這個部分就由市政府這邊他速度加快我們這邊也會來協助這個沒有問題我希望可行性研究的部分走快一點那另外一個部分您所提到的紅線也就是臺中的崇德一直到豐原的這一段那這一段確實現在的車流量非常的大那也因為您的爭取跟地方政府的爭取我們目前針對可行性研究的部分中央已經會盡量來提供協助跟補助"},{"start":29822.182,"end":29841.434,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝我們交通部的再次想感謝我們院長跟交通部這個臺中捷運真的非常重要要不然其實第二大城一直沒有捷運這件事情其實是很荒謬的事情所以要拜託這個中央要全力的支持因為經費上面跟文書作業上各種的審查作業我們都希望能夠減短一點可以不可以"},{"start":29843.559,"end":29864.95,"text":"院長我們盡量依照地方這麼強大的需求那中央在離定計畫跟地方提出各種評估之後能夠在施政上跟地方來配合當然我們願意工程早日的進行跟完工這個當然是我們的期待好 院長謝謝那接下來還是地方先生要跟院長反映一下這過去有會刊 這個部長謝謝"},{"start":29867.885,"end":29891.451,"text":"這過去有會堪過就是我們國立自然科學博物館的設備的更新經費我講科博館這個已經成立了快要40年了比我年紀還大我也在這邊當過志工我講科博館是臺中的很重要的一個場館也是全國來講很重要場館在統計上面來講他是全國第2觀光人數大館人數第2名的這個博物館但他的經費他的這個設備的確我講個這個比較可憐一點的事情"},{"start":29896.252,"end":29910.558,"text":"我高中的時候16歲17歲的時候去當他的志工我跟院長報告如果今天你來台中可不敢再參訪我還可以辦導覽因為沒有什麼改變啊那種基本上一樣20年前的事情"},{"start":29911.377,"end":29911.497,"text":"主席"},{"start":29930.322,"end":29952.334,"text":"包含說這個太空劇場太空劇場這個東西在幾十年前科普館剛落成的時候剛弄起來這個球形的所謂的這個劇場哇那時候很先進啊三十幾年前非常先進那時候還沒有IMAX那時候的科普館是非常先進的地方但是如果現在再去同樣的這個所謂太空劇場去看它的這個影像"},{"start":29953.391,"end":29963.26,"text":"這就有480P而已啊但我們現在進入4K階段了結果他的影像還是這樣子沒有更新到所以那時候我們去會刊的時候當時這個會刊記錄有講說要試113年經費結餘情形或最遲納入114年的預算來調配處理"},{"start":29971.627,"end":29971.827,"text":"主席"},{"start":29987.734,"end":29987.954,"text":"民政事務部長"},{"start":30017.974,"end":30043.044,"text":"怎麼辦我也同意我們包括自然科學在內日新月異的進步我們給國人或是給下一代年輕朋友應該有一個符合現代台灣在這個學科上面應該有的一個呈現那或許是沒有提到地方進行的需求那如果我們進一步的來請教委員或是地方政府或是其他的地方如果在往後的年度可以把它納進去一個計畫的話那我們應該可以審慎的來評估"},{"start":30047.54,"end":30065.902,"text":"沒有啦,院長,你不能往後年度啦這個是會議紀錄,我再給你報告一下這個是官方會議,本來不是我們服務處做的我們服務處做的更細但是官方提供的會議紀錄裡面已經提了理論上今年113年度有結餘款就可以拿來用或是最遲114年要編進去但是我就沒看到"},{"start":30066.443,"end":30066.844,"text":"教育部有沒有什麼計畫?"},{"start":30079.418,"end":30099.09,"text":"跟委員報告,非常感謝委員關心這個科博館的一些這個所有的這些的工程包括所有的展示上的一個工程的改善確實我們在112年已經有先給科博館有一個先期的一個規劃會"},{"start":30100.271,"end":30112.65,"text":"那當時也有關這個污水納管的工程跟太空機場的這些雷射投影機的一個計畫確實當時也說在今年我們在汛期過後如果這個經費上能夠這個"},{"start":30116.394,"end":30142.211,"text":"有剩餘的經費我們會優先來支持那另外也跟委員報告科博館目前他本身這個基金的剩餘也有1億3千多萬所以當時我們也跟交館長說假設有急迫性你就先在現有的基金裡面先處理那至於這個有關蓋新的大樓總共要大概我今天沒有可以提價的新大樓"},{"start":30143.192,"end":30160.855,"text":"我先沒有提新大樓我先提純粹會議紀錄上的這兩筆而已我跟委員報告的就是說蓋新建的大樓裡邊將近要50億我們已經先給規劃會了在去年就先給規劃會那今年在考慮在迅期之後我們也會"},{"start":30162.096,"end":30183.962,"text":"這一個有關污水跟太空機場的這一個部分的一個改善我們也同意在信息的經費節餘我們會優先來補助那如果在時間上交館長他認為應該優先處理我們也同意他這一個在現有的一個基金裡邊還有1億3千多萬他可以優先來做處理"},{"start":30184.722,"end":30206.935,"text":"我想這個不是單一館長或單一場館的問題啦我今天會在這邊提如果今天只是一個場館問題我們就私下寫一條會就好今天特別提出來跟院長講就是因為今天這個是官方的會議紀錄有講了明確的講了要列入最遲114年教育部的預算裡面"},{"start":30208.218,"end":30220.13,"text":"結果卻沒有列入那我是說這樣的承諾這樣子會議記錄不就等於無效了嗎那如果以後都這樣子做的話那立法委員跟行政部門之間要怎麼樣互信要怎麼樣去溝通要怎麼樣去協調"},{"start":30221.584,"end":30248.253,"text":"今天是白紙黑字寫的,不是空口說白話,大家好好好基本上講一講就沒事了今天是有官方會議紀錄的東西那如果今天剛剛你提到的這個長管50億,那個東西我知道所以我也沒在這邊提,因為那是長期計畫今天是簡短的、簡單的國家預算3兆多裡面這個攸關國家科學發展的一個長管也就是2000多萬,頂多4000萬,不同計畫裡面今天一個設備2000多萬,拿不出來"},{"start":30249.093,"end":30249.113,"text":"部長謝謝"},{"start":30274.338,"end":30294.852,"text":"接下來我想下個月是國慶日我想提到國慶最近大家常常暑假期間很多委員都訪美我也跟院長和大院來分享在訪美之後看到一個景象就是他們家家戶戶很多企業也好民間也好真的四處都會輕易的見到他們美國的國旗這個場景在台灣相對來講會比較少見一點"},{"start":30300.976,"end":30301.076,"text":"主席"},{"start":30322.566,"end":30346.869,"text":"當然相關的這個法令有要求啦這個紀念日節日實施辦法國家紀念日是要來在中央機關在機關裡面來懸掛國旗但是並沒有去鼓勵民間來懸掛國旗所以我今天特別提出來是希望說向院長提出建議是不是能夠獎勵或補助民眾在特定的節日或是什麼國旗日或國慶日等等的來購買或者你就乾脆送大家去掛國旗嘛"},{"start":30347.708,"end":30373.326,"text":"議員長你覺得這有可能嗎雖然我認為國旗重要是掛在心中啦但是能夠掛在路面上 過幾天你就會看到整個凱道都會有很多的國旗每個人讓自己對愛國心的表達會有不同的方式我們都予以尊重那懸掛國旗當然也是一種就像我們在奧運的時候我們雖然看到的是我們的會旗但是唱起國旗歌大家還是非常澎湃"},{"start":30373.626,"end":30373.746,"text":"主席"},{"start":30404.227,"end":30405.929,"text":"凡事有助於國人團結以國家為最終目標的這種團結任何的表現的形式我都認為是好的"},{"start":30425.35,"end":30435.784,"text":"不僅是尊重如果大家有好的意見我們都可以共同來討論也支持好 院長謝謝那接下來現在沒有多少時間了我延續上一次的這個質詢有提到所謂外籍勞工的問題"},{"start":30437.537,"end":30467.277,"text":"在上次7月9號的時候我們跟院長總質詢的時候也提到下半年會來討論開放所謂外籍家庭幫傭的議題那院長也提到說營造更好的帶小孩的環境讓女性能夠重新參與勞動市場絕對是對生育率有所幫助那所以本國目前是這個三名60歲以下才能申請這個家庭幫傭比較嚴下半年要來檢討那這個部長也提到下半年一起要來檢討那我想已經下半年了已經即將第四季啦"},{"start":30472.598,"end":30494.343,"text":"請部長跟委員說明我們之間討論的過程跟現在的想法院長一直非常關心然後也一直指示我們要針對您的這個提議要來研究那麼先跟您報告我們初步先使用我們先進行我們的多元陪伴服務方案的處理現在我們已經"},{"start":30495.423,"end":30521.333,"text":"進入這個正式的把多元陪伴服務方案就是所謂的終點移工我們甚至已經把這個具體的那個時程都訂出來了大概在今年11月底我們就可以提供服務了那我們是不是先就這個方案來先做一個試辦之後呢我們會在下半年我們看這個方案進行的情況如何因為其實這個方案其實也有點類似"},{"start":30522.754,"end":30545.401,"text":"可以類似就是像家庭幫傭這樣的功能啦對於顧老跟顧小都可以cover而且是沒有這一個服務對象的這個資格的設限的沒有很所以是不是可以允許我們把這個事辦方案我們看成效如何如果可以的話也許我們逐步來推動委員所提的建議這樣子"},{"start":30546.161,"end":30563.286,"text":"副部長謝謝因為其實這個提出來最主要就是希望因為其實今天少子化我想今年是農年大家看到數據也很驚訝就是說過往少子化理論上不是少子化農年的生育率理論上會退反一下下再往下跌但是今年完全沒有看到這狀況所以這個"},{"start":30565.487,"end":30591.115,"text":"少子化是一個非常嚴肅的議題那少子化當然很多原因那其中一個最重要的就是現代的雙薪家庭的問題嘛我今天之所以提出來這個外籍幫傭放寬的原因就第一個我國的這個所謂的白領的外籍這個這些這個高階白領階級他們是可以直接看薪水來決定放寬他們去請這個所謂外籍的幫傭但是本國籍的是要就像我提到的你必須要有"},{"start":30591.915,"end":30610.345,"text":"三個六歲以下的孩童才能夠去請我想這個對比落差非常大那正常現在多數的家庭誰家裡會有三個六歲以下孩童根本就不可能那不可能的情況下這個法規就形成拒文嘛那我們當然希望說能夠讓雙薪家庭因為現在基本上都是雙薪家庭"},{"start":30610.785,"end":30623.868,"text":"他除了上班之外回來他能夠鬆開他的雙手他可以不用去背這些書房他可以多背他的小孩甚至陪他上學等等的所以我們才希望說這個方向能夠往這方去走好不好 院長跟部長"},{"start":30625.336,"end":30627.358,"text":"好 院長謝謝最後剩下一分鐘我來跟大家討論一下我們社會主宰的問題"},{"start":30648.342,"end":30674.797,"text":"先看這個數字啊5月31號的時候目標還是12萬6869到8月31不知道為什麼只剩下12萬1938有5000會不見當然細節我們沒辦法跟討論了因為時間不夠但是這個數字我想讓院長看到一下就為什麼我們的社會住宅的這個數字降低反而降低了那另外我想今天稍早其他委員有關心社宅政策有提到所謂住宅基金的問題那當時候大家講說這個"},{"start":30678.213,"end":30703.959,"text":"社會住宅跟租金補貼彼此之間不衝突但是我們細究一下所謂住宅基金的數字在明年度的預算裡面社宅在住宅基金裡面只有38億7千萬左右大概40億包租代管50億租金補貼350億換句話說租房這件事情包租代管加租金補貼就佔了400億那你社宅只花了38億"},{"start":30705.56,"end":30726.111,"text":"所以我想這個數字來講的話其實對於整個這個百萬社宅計畫你等於是拿那個租屋的補貼的計畫來填充阿好 謝謝 謝謝黃建豪委員的質詢 謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第20號陳素悅委員請質詢"},{"start":30758.407,"end":30758.707,"text":"主席"},{"start":30777.229,"end":30787.472,"text":"我們知道農業是國家很重要的一部分彰化縣是工業的農工混合大縣在南彰化也是重要的農業生產區目前國土計畫法實施在即"},{"start":30797.555,"end":30822.675,"text":"因為在2015年12月18號在立法院完成三讀之後一直到2016年5月1號在馬英九總統任內即將卸任之前來公告要施行那目前就是要一直按照這個時程在進行當中那隨著這個要實施的這個時間的一個逼近那在地方真的也越來越多人在討論關注這個議題尤其是很多"},{"start":30823.235,"end":30823.435,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30850.393,"end":30857.201,"text":"國土計劃法實施後﹐農地就要被判死刑﹐農民就永無翻身之日﹐"},{"start":30868.558,"end":30884.892,"text":"請陳部長說明我跟委員說明其實國土計畫裡面針對農業發展區的部分其實我們都有一個共同的目的就是為了農序永續發展這是非常重要的而且不會讓過往的土地的破碎化而造成更嚴重的一個生態的影響"},{"start":30885.652,"end":30886.133,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30899.178,"end":30923.215,"text":"以農業部的一個立場他們這樣子的一個不同的考量是可以持續做溝通的因為化社有化社的原則但是也會依據縣市政府當地所在的產業的需求而調整但是非常重要就是中央跟地方一定會互相去做後續的溝通跟討論這是非常重要的那第三個部分要跟委員說明的就是"},{"start":30924.235,"end":30943.06,"text":"農業部針對整個農地農用的部分來講是完全沒有影響你只要農地從事農用的部分完全沒有影響那農業部也會持續的針對配合整個國家的希望工程裡面我們會發展以農村為發展中心的一個永續的支持系統"},{"start":30944.221,"end":30963.439,"text":"這個支持系統就是我們看農地絕對不能是看農一農二因為農業不只是生產農業還有很多的農村的生活這個部分我想我們會持續的去規劃跟執行它不會因為國土計畫的一個如期實施或延後而改變以上"},{"start":30965.179,"end":30985.064,"text":"國土計畫法 立法要旨提到為了因應氣候變遷 確保國土安全保育自然環境與人文資產促進資源與產業合理配置強化國土整合管理機制並賦予環境敏感與國土破壞地區追求國家永續發展"},{"start":30986.844,"end":30988.246,"text":"國土計畫法實施後可以達到這樣的理想境界嗎?可以解決目前農地面臨問題的萬靈丹嗎?"},{"start":31006.618,"end":31021.011,"text":"依照剛剛委員所列的施政表國土激發法在公告立法的時候我認為還是會站在一個以國家土地永續利用的這種方式來保存最好的農地的方向來進展"},{"start":31021.992,"end":31036.733,"text":"但是現在看起來很多國人或是農民對他裡面的一些文字等等的解釋都會產生疑慮那這個部分內政部也好農業部也好這期間以來實際上非常積極的在做溝通跟說明"},{"start":31037.173,"end":31059.453,"text":"那我們也希望這個溝通說明能夠有效大家在這個法的精神底下如果去推動讓所有的農地分級之後能夠得到妥適的使用跟他應該保障的農民的權益那目前看起來還有一些縣市我所知道還有9個縣市他們目前還是沒有辦法在這種溝通跟說明之下照時程把分區的溝通圖送過來"},{"start":31060.951,"end":31079.274,"text":"當然這是一個問題可是我們就是說就目前已經送出來的就是說或者是已經有草案的這些資料來看我們看出來就是說國土計畫的實施號稱說未來希望就是讓這個農地種量不變就是要追求國家的永續一個發展"},{"start":31079.694,"end":31080.054,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":31100.783,"end":31101.023,"text":"民眾疑慮"},{"start":31124.284,"end":31151.379,"text":"那也讓很多有心人士來見縫插針所以就造成地方的紛紛擾擾民心不安所以我覺得說如果一個政策沒有辦法說服民眾說服農民而且這個政策如果說實施之後沒有辦法比以前的這個政策更好的話我們是不是要先緩一緩來在審慎的一個評估之後再來實施院長請內政部回答"},{"start":31152.8,"end":31174.034,"text":"謝謝委員非常關心農業跟農民的權益我們知道說這個國土計劃法他是在明年的時候要所謂的一併公告目前13個縣市送上來表示13個縣市他們在有關於國土計劃的功能分區上面他們願意跟中央政府來多做溝通委員所關心比較多是在於農地方面的處理"},{"start":31174.734,"end":31183.7,"text":"目前為止 農地的處理還有農業本身的發展在我們的檢討當中我們認為應該把鄉村規劃或是跟農業發展好好的把它劃到我們的國土計劃裡面同時針對已經送上來的13個縣市政府裡面我們也認為說他們有討論的空間委員所提到說也許有某一個什麼水庫區域裡面它可能在劃地上面有問題事實上"},{"start":31200.071,"end":31228.289,"text":"在國土計劃法真正開始實施第11年也就是115年之後我們會有國土的永續發展基金大概目前編列是以500億的方式來解決有關這個環境敏感地區裡面如果碰到國土富裕的時候必須要做其他的補償或其他的相對的對立的措施所以不管是說因應氣候變遷或者是環境保育我們其實一步一步往前走但是對於有關於農地的劃分的部分的話就會像這個委員所說的部分"},{"start":31228.609,"end":31228.809,"text":"總統總量管制﹚"},{"start":31246.152,"end":31246.452,"text":"國土計劃法修正"},{"start":31266.101,"end":31292.602,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":31299.364,"end":31310.327,"text":"國土計畫法目前在進行的當中我們就是就如同我剛剛所舉的兩個點就是我們可以看得出來各地地方政府的話是標準的不一或者是說"},{"start":31311.167,"end":31332.671,"text":"他們委託顧問公司來做只是做這個圖資的套會並沒有做現場的一個會刊所以我們希望說應該要有更多的時間來做這個溝通然後讓民眾的疑慮可以消除所以我們也是希望就是說在這個整個完整的配套沒有到位之前我們還是希望國土計畫法能夠暫緩實施謝謝我們劉部長那接下來"},{"start":31336.792,"end":31336.912,"text":"蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":31355.949,"end":31374.816,"text":"當時總統跟院長都有馬上去勘栽﹚而且都馬上對外宣誓說﹚對農業的損失的現金救助部分﹚要重塑、重寬、重減可是目前已經過了一個多月﹚快兩個月了目前很多的農民他們都還沒有收到這個現金救助甚至是已經被退件"},{"start":31375.456,"end":31375.636,"text":"請部長關心"},{"start":31400.206,"end":31415.821,"text":"我先跟委員說明就是在那個堪比颱風來的時候其實我們做的幾件事情是比過往更快速的就是過往都是地方去勘察以後報到中央以後再公告那這次我們是由中央的同仁"},{"start":31425.886,"end":31441.014,"text":"公告以後本身的因為還是要回到公所去審查那有一部分是免現刊的我們認為他的災情如果有普遍性而且有一致性的時候我們就會公告為免現刊那免現刊的話就不用去現場看你只要有"},{"start":31441.834,"end":31441.894,"text":"因為我還有兩個問題"},{"start":31468.869,"end":31469.009,"text":"流浪犬問題"},{"start":31487.815,"end":31510.815,"text":"在二水有愛護動物的善心人士﹐主動來協助做流浪犬的收容﹐進行結紮﹐然後再回放﹐因為他利用的土地是在林務局的土地﹐目前林務局本來要跟他開罰﹐目前是沒有開單﹐可是要求他要移除﹐"},{"start":31511.696,"end":31539.806,"text":"可是我覺得這個不是他個人的問題因為他也是做義務性的所以這個應該是整個公部門要來解決的問題如果說他今天他也撒手不管的時候那整個是變成風博廣場風博嶺這個風景區就是都是流浪犬在那邊亂竄對旅客 遊客也是一個很大的一個威脅所以我們希望就是說在這個流浪犬的一個安置因為我們知道當然就是說目前一個時代的進步我們都"},{"start":31540.306,"end":31542.048,"text":"最後一個問題就是我們知道就是說在最近兩年"},{"start":31565.109,"end":31565.249,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":31581.643,"end":31581.843,"text":"主席"},{"start":31600.33,"end":31621.773,"text":"所得到訊息就是中午回辦公室的時候那檢調單位針對雞蛋的部分有來請續場會的同仁跟相關的本會的同仁到那個應該是檢調單位那邊去做一些詢問跟約談那至於說到底是什麼樣的方式我想因為偵查不公開的方式我不便說明"},{"start":31623.273,"end":31650.755,"text":"對當然我們尊重偵查部公開當然就是說這個農業部真的是責任重大因為就是關心著這個民生的議題不管是農民的這個農業的生產或者是畜牧業等等真的這個面向非常的廣尤其是面對目前面臨這個極端氣候的一個威脅那真的是我們要做的事情非常的多那我們也希望我們的陳部長要加油是"},{"start":31651.315,"end":31651.596,"text":"陳樹越委員質詢．昨天的備詢"},{"start":31673.083,"end":31687.649,"text":"報告委員會我們本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢我們非常謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長以及各部會首長列席的答詢先來做以下決定下次會議繼續進行施政報告之質詢我們先來散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","委員發言時間":"08:30:02 - 17:22:00","id":"16123"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:30:42","end_time":"2024-09-24T17:02:13+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154885","gazette":{"lineno":606,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（16時31分）謝謝大會主席，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：院長好。院長，首先一開始也要關心上個禮拜司法院判決出來有關死刑存廢的問題，當然司法院雖然說死刑合憲，但是要求各審級合議庭法官的意見必須一致。我想是這樣，在這個判決裡面有提到，法院組織法沒有明定要合議庭法官一致才可以判處死刑，這件事情違反了正當法律程序原則，那我想問一下，意思是在三審裡面的所有法官都要判決一致才符合正當法律程序原則，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照憲法法庭解釋出來的文字來看，它有這樣的期待，就是要一致決，至於程序上的問題，我們往後還會有相當一段時間要進行各種修法，這個細節部分法務部已經在研究當中。"],["黃委員健豪：我想如同院長剛剛所說的，其實這部分我也覺得很疑惑，可是如果要針對程序問題要求到這麼細緻的話，它本質上是立法問題，不應該是司法解釋的問題。這個判決裡面也講相關機關兩年內要提出相關修法，但是從民調看得很清楚，84%、85%的民眾是反對廢除死刑的，今天如果相關機關要提出相關修法的話，請問行政院或法務部，你們算不算相關機關？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個一致決是屬於評議審判事務，規定在法院組織法中，是屬於司法院主管的一個法規，所以要由司法院來主政。"],["黃委員健豪：所以到時候所謂的修法版本不會有你們院版，就是不會有行政院的版本？"],["鄭部長銘謙：司法院修法後會會銜行政院提出。"],["黃委員健豪：那行政院會提出版本嗎？還是全部都是司法院來提？"],["鄭部長銘謙：主政的是司法院，所以司法院會會銜行政院再送立法院審議。"],["黃委員健豪：那你法務部的立場是什麼？因為到時候一定會徵詢你們意見嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分在進行法制作業的時候，我會再提出我們的意見。"],["黃委員健豪：因為這個判決提出來，雖然說死刑是合憲的，但其實已經是實質廢死了，本席要在這邊講，這東西如果要送到立法院，你們是民選政府的官員，我們是民意代表，我們是人民投票投出來的，這麼多民眾反對這件事情，我真的不知道到時候送進立法院，不管在委員會審查也好，在大院討論也好，我們立法委員要怎麼去審這個法案。不知道部長或院長有什麼樣的想法可以教我們，我們要怎麼樣去立這個法，我們要怎麼樣把法律修到可以滿足大法官的這個判決？司法院這個判決等於凌駕立法院，等於凌駕行政院的版本！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我並不認為現在等於就是把它說成是「實質廢死」，用4個字來形容，原則上它是有條件的合憲，我們在這個有條件合憲的框架底下，把一些程序讓它完備。完備程序的目的，在於不要造成冤枉的判決，但是我們在完備的過程當中，可以對很多的過程，比方我們可以慎重對這些重大案件的各種事後的一些檢驗，包括它是不是經過一定的鑑定，這個鑑定的過程也要跟社會能夠非常地接受；再來就是我們可以改變一下拘禁的方式，用終身拘禁取代無期徒刑這樣的方式，這都是未來司法跟行政院當中，乃至於跟立法院、大院當中，我們互相可以討論的很多重點。所以原則上我不認為這就是實質廢死，就是有條件，我們一定會把條件讓它更合理化。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，院長，我想你現在的立場一直覺得要跟民眾、跟立法院溝通，我就看看這兩年到底要怎麼樣溝通，才能夠讓民眾接受要歷審一致決的這個版本。","另外我要提醒一件事情，如果歷審一致決才能夠符合所謂正當法律程序原則的話，那是不是其他的刑責、其他的法律、相關的法律不是只有死刑，那竊盜呢？強盜呢？這類是不是歷審都要一致，它才符合正當法律程序原則？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員所提的，這是屬於實體面的一個問題，那個正當法律程序是要在刑事訴訟法做規範。"],["黃委員健豪：我是說，所以對於強盜或其他的刑事罪責，是不是也都歷審要一致，它才能夠符合？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果今天判處死刑、最嚴重的那個罪刑，如果法院要判處死刑的話，根據憲法法庭憲判第8號的規定、判決的意旨，這個是要一致決，這個是屬於從一審、二審到最高法院，都要所有的法官、合議庭的法官就要做一致決才能判處死刑。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，還有一個意見，其實過去我們都知道法院是三級三審制，如果今天地方法院一審裡面，光是一審裡面法官就覺得不需要的時候，他上訴到後面的二審、三審之後，那你等於剝奪了二審、三審的權利了啊！過去本來二審、三審可能可以跟一審有不一樣的結果，如果今天一審裡面就已經有法官不認為他被判處死刑是合理的，如果有法官覺得他不該被判處死刑，所以後面的二審、三審等於也被限制了相關權利嘛！那不就實質廢死了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分檢察官收到判決會斟酌上訴。"],["黃委員健豪：不是，部長，我請教一下專業問題嘛！如果今天一審有法官認為這個罪犯他不能判處死刑，所以一審的法官已經有這樣子的見解了，那二審、三審的法官即便覺得他有判處死刑的必要性，是不是也無解？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有這個問題。一審的話，如果他應該判死刑，沒有判死刑的話，我想檢察官會請求上訴，或被害人家屬會請求檢察官上訴，我們會審酌，檢察官會審酌那個判決、法官的判決量刑是否妥適。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你的歷審一致決的這個部分，是從一審裡面的法官到三審的法官都要一致嗎？或者不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，那個憲判……"],["黃委員健豪：三級三審繼續維持嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是憲判字8號的判決意旨，是一、二、三審全部都要一致決。"],["黃委員健豪：對啊！我就說你要一致決，所以如果地方法院在第一審的時候，就是有法官覺得他不該判處死刑，那檢察官如果覺得……也因為過去是這樣嘛！過去檢察官如果覺得這個人罪刑重大，但是在地方法院如果沒有判處他死刑，上訴到高院，高院如果能夠判處他死刑，那是不是就有死刑的問題？那如果現在地方法院第一審的時候就沒有判處死刑，檢察官即便上訴了，到二審之後，二審的法官也不能推翻一審的這件事情吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不一定，要看個案。如果一審的話應該一致……那個一致決，是要判死刑才有一致決的問題，如果不是判死刑就沒有一致決的問題。譬如一個最重的判刑，如果一審的法院是判無期徒刑，如果檢察官不服，或被害人的家屬可以請求檢察官上訴，上訴到二審，當然以憲判第8號的判決意旨，二審的話判死刑，要一致決，所以合議庭的3個法官都要認為就是要判死刑，才可以……"],["黃委員健豪：當然，我可以確認，這個東西我想民眾都非常關心，所以才利用這麼多時間來跟你們就教。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個我們大家都很關心，法務部也是非常關心這件事情。"],["黃委員健豪：二審的合議庭法官如果都決定要判處死刑，如果啦，假設某個個案是這樣子，但是一審的時候他沒有被判處死刑，這件事情到底是有還是沒有？他這樣能不能被執行？"],["鄭部長銘謙：實務上會有這種情形啊！二審的話，如果說認為一審的判決並非妥適或者說違法的話，二審可以改判。"],["黃委員健豪：二審可以改判嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以改判。"],["黃委員健豪：所以所謂的歷審一致決就不存在了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：規定是要一致決才能判死刑啊！但是如果一致決他不判死刑的話，我們還是可以上訴啊，二審也是一致決可以判死刑啊！"],["黃委員健豪：所以二審一致決如果判死刑就是可以判死刑，跟一審無關？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是，因為不服一審的才有上訴到二審嘛！二審審核如果一審原來的判決非合法妥適，這樣的話，可以改判為死刑，只要一致決，可以改判為死刑。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長，謝謝。我們後面繼續來討論這個問題，謝謝部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的意思是說，一、二、三審都要一致決……"],["黃委員健豪：對啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：判死刑都要一致決。這是不是在憲判字第8號的解釋文上面引申為這樣的說法，我認為一定會引起很多的討論，我們再看看很多的法律專家……"],["黃委員健豪：所以這個說法並不一定是正確的，並不一定是照它字面上的說法？"],["卓院長榮泰：一定會引起討論啦！"],["黃委員健豪：所以法還會再修嘛！好，謝謝。","接下來要談論一下地方建設。部長，謝謝。","我們也有關注行政院新任陳世凱部長的臉書，我看他前兩天發了一個Reels，講到響應世界無車日，呼籲民眾乘坐公共運輸工具，我截圖有截到他所在的位置在台北捷運的藍線，剛好明年的預算裡面也編列了臺中捷運的藍線。部長出生在臺中，也很清楚知道，今天如果身為一個臺中市民，他想要響應部長的呼籲、響應院長的呼籲，來響應這個世界無車日，但卻只有一條捷運可以搭乘的話，我想就很難去達到這個目標。所以我今天要提到，在臺中市的整體捷運路網裡面，捷運藍線當然是預計明年要來動工，但是我看目前送進來的院版預算（當然，現在在程序委員會被退回），比例非常懸殊，我想請問一下，為什麼比例那麼懸殊？就是明年臺中捷運的藍線，中央政府只編了5億，地方編了88億，這是什麼樣的狀況？為什麼比例那麼懸殊？未來捷運預計要蓋10年，是每年都會照這個比例去做，還是未來中央能夠多支持臺中捷運的建設？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，藍線的部分目前正在細部計畫的過程當中，明年預算的部分，因為現在正在用地取得的部分，用地取得本來就是地方政府會多一些，所以它撥了八十幾億，中央目前是只有5億，但是未來整個中央跟地方分配的補助金額其實已經定下來了，所以這個沒有問題，到時候看工程走到什麼樣的進度，中央該補助的金額絕對會照當時我們大家討論好的那個金額下去補助，這個比例上都沒有問題。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。院長，我接下來要繼續就教臺中捷運的事情，也請部長繼續留著，因為跟捷運有關係。","剛剛彰化的黃委員也有質詢過相關的議題，就是捷運綠線延伸線的問題，我想這卡到所謂的的彰東都市計畫區。之前有提到彰東都市計畫區只要有審定，中捷綠線的綜合規劃就能夠報院做相關的審查。中捷綠線的部分往北是在我的選區大坑，往南就是部長以前的選區烏日到黃秀芳委員的選區彰化等等，這整條要做，一定會卡到彰東都市計畫，所以本席要問的是：有沒有解套的空間？有沒有機會以分段通車的方式來執行？因為北段這邊基本上沒有太大的問題，它就是很簡單的一個二點多公里的延伸線，南段因為涉及都市計畫的問題，彰東都市計畫就如同剛剛前面黃秀芳委員所說的，他從議員當到委員了，這件事情還沒有成案，同樣的問題，捷運綠線延伸從我當議員到我現在當委員了，也是一樣，看到那個建物的預留線留在那邊，但是一直沒有什麼新的進度。所以本席今天要問的是：捷運綠線延伸這件事情會因為彰東都市計畫而卡關嗎？還是有其他的方式可以讓它部分地分階段來通車？過去有沒有其他捷運可以這樣做？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，其實這個部分，因為我知道臺中市這一端，大家希望延伸北屯、大坑的這一條線速度可以快一些，但是因為往南、往彰化那邊還有都市計畫的問題，所以速度可能會緩一些、慢一些。目前因為這條線的延伸正在綜合規劃的過程當中，其實我們可以協助地方政府，大家一起來討論一下，有沒有可能分段來研究？也就是大坑段這部分的綜合規劃是不是我們走快一點，可不可以分段來處理？這個部分我們會來協助地方政府，大家一起來討論看看。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝行政院跟交通部的支持。這兩天大家也看到新聞了，捷運綠線上面有工作人員因為疑似過勞的問題在捷運往生了，也提到臺中捷運目前屬於虧損的狀態。我想捷運虧損，從以前的臺北捷運、以前的高雄捷運，大概都經歷過這段時間，為什麼？就是因為捷運只有一條的時候，它一定會虧損，因為沒有人流嘛！我們希望路網能夠形成。以明年來講，捷運藍線即將動工，臺中的捷運坦白講，全國第二大城，它的進度的確比其他城市慢了非常多，所以我想問一下行政院這邊，到底對於未來我們的捷運，包含橘線連結到中科、連結到臺中車站，還有捷運有一條紅線，是整個崇德路這一條，很重要的一個紅線，因為我知道紅線本來預計10年後才要開始評估，我們有爭取，我想交通部也支持、行政院也支持，希望讓捷運紅線能夠提早開始規劃。我想問一下，這兩個案子─橘線跟紅線有沒有機會加速趕快來執行？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，目前橘線我們正在可行性評估當中，這個部分就由市政府這邊，它速度加快，我們這邊也會來協助，這個沒有問題，我希望可行性研究的部分走快一點。另外一個部分，您所提到的紅線，也就是臺中的崇德一直到豐原的這一段。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["陳部長世凱：這一段確實現在的車流量非常地大，也因為您的爭取跟地方政府的爭取，我們目前針對可行性研究的部分，中央已經會儘量來提供協助跟補助。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝交通部，再次想感謝我們院長跟交通部。臺中的捷運真的非常重要，要不然第二大城一直沒有捷運，這其實是很荒謬的一件事情，所以要拜託中央全力的支持，尤其經費上面跟文書作業上、各種的審查作業，我們都希望能夠簡短一點，可不可以？院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們儘量，依照地方這麼強大的需求，中央在擬定計畫跟地方提出各種評估之後，能夠在施政上跟地方來配合，當然我們願意工程早日地進行跟完工，這個當然是我們的期待。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝院長，謝謝部長。接下來還是地方建設要跟院長反映一下，過去有會勘過，就是國立自然科學博物館的設備更新經費，我想科博館已經成立了快要40年了，比我年紀還大，我也在這邊當過志工，我想科博館是臺中很重要的一個場館，以全國來講也是很重要的場館。在統計上面來講，它是全國第二，到館人數第二名的博物館，但它的經費、它的設備，的確我講個比較可憐一點的事情，我高中的時候，16歲、17歲的時候去當它的志工，我跟院長報告，如果今天你來臺中科博館再參訪，我還可以幫你導覽，因為沒有什麼改變，內容基本上一樣，20年前的事情。更不用講從以前到現在，整個場館基本上沒有太大的更新，當然相關計畫─後續科博館應該也會報、教育部也會報，但是我要講的是，我們今年其實有去會勘，有幾個比較重點的部分，一個是有會議紀錄的，會議紀錄裡面提到，包含太空劇場，太空劇場這個東西在幾十年前科博館剛落成的時候，剛弄起來這個球形的所謂的劇場，那時候很先進，三十幾年前非常先進，那時候還沒有IMAX，那時候的科博館是非常先進的地方，但是如果現在再去同樣的太空劇場去看，它的影像就只有480p而已，我們現在都進到4K階段了，結果它的影像還是這樣子，沒有更新到。","所以我們去會勘的時候，當時會勘紀錄有講要視113年經費結餘情形，或最遲納入114年的預算來調配處理，所以相關預算整個看起來，太空劇場兩千多萬，那麼所謂污水管線，有的、沒有的更新起來，大概四、五千萬的經費，但是這對一年三兆的國家總預算來講，應該不是太龐大的經費，但是我翻遍了所有預算書，就是沒有看到這一條。甚至我們講科博館一年去看太空劇場的人數大概24萬、25萬人，平均票價一張100元，所以基本上你投資這個場館的費用兩千多萬，政府投資下去，很快就能夠從觀光客、從民眾、從各界來的遊覽人次裡面來把它回收。這對政府來講應該不是一個太龐大的經費，更何況這是有會議紀錄，也承諾要幫我們更新的，那為什麼在明年預算裡面沒有看到相關的進度？院長，怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也同意，我們包括自然科學在內，日新月益的進步，我們給國人或是給下一代年輕朋友，應該有一個符合現代臺灣在這個學科上面應該有的一個呈現，那或許是沒有提到地方上的需求，如果我們進一步地來請教委員或是地方政府或是其他的地方，如果在往後的年度可以把它納進去一個計畫的話，那我們應該可以審慎地來評估。"],["黃委員健豪：沒有啦！院長，你不能往後年度啦！這個是有會議紀錄的。我再跟你報告一下，這個是官方會議，不是我們服務處做的，我們服務處做得更細，但是官方提供的會議紀錄裡面已經提了，理論上今年113年度有結餘款就可以拿來用，或者是最遲114年要編進去，但是我就沒看到。所以我今天為什麼要提出來？就是希望院長知道這件事情、了解這件事情，這種官方文書紀錄是不能開玩笑的，不能說我承諾了，那最後沒有編進去，那這樣我們會勘跟會議紀錄不就沒有意義了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：看教育部有沒有什麼計畫。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，非常感謝委員關心科博館所有的這些工程，包括所有展示上的工程改善。確實我們在112年已經有先給科博館先期的一個規劃費，那當時有關污水納管的工程跟太空劇場的這些雷射投影機的計畫，確實當時也說今年我們在汛期過後，如果這個經費上能夠有剩餘的經費，我們會優先來支持。另外也跟委員報告，科博館目前它本身基金的賸餘也有一億三千多萬，所以當時我們也跟焦館長說，假設有急迫性，你就先在現有的基金裡面先處理。至於有關蓋新的一個大樓，總共要大概接近50億……"],["黃委員健豪：沒有，我今天沒有提新大樓、我今天沒有提新大樓，我今天就提純粹會議紀錄上的這兩筆而已。"],["鄭部長英耀：如果其他的這一個就……我跟委員報告，新建的大樓裡面將近要50億，我們已經先給規劃費了，在去年就先給規劃費，那今年考慮在汛期之後，有關污水跟太空劇場這個部分的改善，我們也同意在汛期的經費結餘，我們會優先來補助。那如果在時間上，焦館長他認為應該優先處理，我們也同意他在現有的基金裡面還有一億三千多萬，他可以優先來做處理。"],["黃委員健豪：我想這個不是單一館長或單一場館的問題，我今天會在這邊提，如果今天只是一個場館問題，我們就私下開協調會就好，今天特別提出來跟院長講，就是因為今天這個是官方的會議紀錄，有明確地講了要列入最遲114年教育部的預算裡面，結果卻沒有列入，我是說這樣的承諾、這樣子的會議紀錄不就等於無效了嗎？如果以後都這樣子做的話，立法委員跟行政部門之間要怎麼樣互信？要怎麼樣去溝通？要怎麼樣去協調？今天是白紙黑字寫的，不是空口說白話，講一講就沒事了，今天是有官方會議紀錄的東西。你剛剛提到的場館50億，那個東西我知道，所以我也沒有在這邊提，因為那是長期計畫，今天是簡短的、簡單的，國家預算三兆多裡面，這個攸關國家科學發展的一個場館，也就是兩千多萬，頂多4,000萬，在不同計畫裡面，今天一個設備兩千多萬拿不出來，而且這還是政府承諾要給的，為什麼會沒有呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，剛剛部長所說，自然科學博物館現在有一億多的賸餘款，館長他已經……部長有指示，如果有緊急需要，就這個部分來使用，我想不管是教育部或院裡面，我們都同意，也支持這樣的使用。"],["黃委員健豪：好，院長，謝謝。部長，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：接下來，我想下個月就是國慶日，提到國慶，我想最近大家……常常暑假期間很多委員都有訪美，我也跟院長還有大院來分享，我去訪美之後看到一個景象，就是他們真的家家戶戶，很多企業也好、民間也好，真的是四處都能輕易地見到美國的國旗，這個場景在臺灣相對來講會比較少見一點。為什麼我今天要特別提出來呢？我想因為最近第一個要國慶，第二個，我想兩岸關係也緊張。大家常常說，我們戰力要提升，心戰也很重要，心戰就包含民眾對國家的認同感，所以我們希望國旗除了在國慶日的時候能夠懸掛之外，當然相關的法令紀念日及節日實施辦法也要求，國家紀念日在中央機關、在機關裡面是要懸掛國旗的，但是並沒有鼓勵民間來懸掛國旗。所以我今天特別提出來，就是希望向院長提出建議，是不是能夠獎勵或補助民眾在特定的節日，像國旗日、國慶日等等的來購買，或者你就干脆送大家去掛國旗嘛！院長，你覺得有這個可能嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，雖然我認為國旗最重要是掛在心中，但是能掛在路面上，過幾天你就會看到整個凱道都會有很多的國旗，總統府也開始布置了。"],["黃委員健豪：這是政府機關的。"],["卓院長榮泰：每個人自己對愛國心的表達都會有不同的方式，我們都予以尊重，懸掛國旗當然也是一種，就像我們在奧運的時候，我們雖然看到的是我們的會旗，但唱起國旗歌，大家還是非常澎湃。像我也把國旗放在手表上，這個也是一種表示嘛！你也看得到。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝院長。因為我想這個還是要提一下，最近有個名詞叫「認知作戰」，認知作戰對內也很重要，就是讓民眾認知到我們是中華民國，我們對外要團結一致，所以這是平常就要建立起來的。這也是我在暑假期間訪美的時候特別看到的，他們國家……甚至跟他們的政治人物聊天，他們也講平常就要建立起這樣的文化，不要說只有比賽的時候，或是對外的時候才拿出來，平常大家多數的民眾就應該要有這樣的認知心態，當然這需要政府去幫忙、去從旁鼓勵，所以院長你覺得這件事情有沒有可行性？"],["卓院長榮泰：凡事有助於國人團結、以國家為最終目標的這種團結，任何表現的形式，我都認為是好的，不僅是尊重，如果大家有好的意見，我們都可以共同來討論，也支持。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝院長。接下來剩下沒有多少時間了，我延續上一次的質詢有提到所謂外籍勞工的問題，上次在7月9號的時候我跟院長總質詢也提到，下半年會來討論開放所謂外籍家庭幫傭的議題。院長也提到說，營造更好的帶小孩的環境，讓女性能夠重新參與勞動市場，絕對對生育率會有所幫助。本國目前是有3名6歲以下兒童才能申請家庭幫傭，比較嚴，下半年要來檢討，而部長也提到下半年會一起來檢討。我想已經下半年了，即將到第四季不知道檢討的結果有沒有什麼進度？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長跟委員說明我們之間討論的過程跟現在的想法。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，院長一直非常關心，也一直指示我們要針對您的提議來研究。先跟您報告，我們初步先使用、先進行我們的多元陪伴服務方案的處理，現在我們已經進入正式把多元陪伴服務方案，就是所謂的鐘點移工，甚至已經把具體的時程都訂出來了，大概在今年11月底就可以提供服務了。我們是不是先就這個方案來先做一個試辦之後，我們會在下半年，看這個方案進行的情況如何。因為這個方案其實也有一點類似家庭幫傭這樣的功能，對於顧老跟顧小都可以cover，而且是沒有服務對象資格的設限的。所以是不是可以允許我們看這個試辦方案的成效如何，如果可以的話，也許我們逐步來推動委員所提的建議。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，謝謝。其實這個提出來最主要就是希望……因為現在少子化，今年是龍年，大家看到數據也很驚訝，過往龍年的生育率理論上會反彈一下下，然後再往下跌，但是今年完全沒有看到這個狀況。少子化是一個非常嚴肅的議題，少子化當然有很多原因，其中一個最重要的就是現代雙薪家庭的問題嘛！我今天之所以提出來外籍幫傭要放寬的原因就是，第一個，我國所謂的白領的外籍、高階白領階級，他們是可以直接看薪水來決定放寬他們去請所謂的外籍幫傭，但是本國籍的就像我提到的，你必須要有3個6歲以下的孩童，才能夠去請，我想這個對比落差非常大，正常現在多數的家庭誰家裡會有3個6歲以下的孩童，根本就不可能！那不可能的情況下，這個法規就形同具文嘛！我們當然希望能夠讓雙薪家庭，因為現在基本上都是雙薪家庭，除了上班之外，回來他能夠鬆開他的雙手，被這些鬆綁，他可以多陪他的小孩，甚至陪他上學等等的，所以我們希望這個部分能夠往這個方向去走，好不好？院長、部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，跟委員報告，在部長剛剛所說的多元陪伴服務式的開辦期間，我們也希望勞動部同時持續地進行整套政策的研擬及制定，我希望是同時並進的，不會因為這樣就停止我們對整套政策的想法。"],["黃委員健豪：好，院長，謝謝。","最後剩下1分鐘，我來跟大家討論一下我們社會住宅的問題。先看這個數字，5月31日的時候目標數還是12萬6,869，到8月31日，不知道為什麼，只剩下12萬1,938，有5,000戶不見了，當然細節我們沒辦法跟您討論，因為時間不夠，但是這個數字我想讓院長看到一下，就是為什麼我們社會住宅的這個數字反而降低了。","另外，我想今天稍早其他委員也有關心社宅政策，有提到所謂住宅基金的問題，當時候大家講社會住宅與租金補貼彼此之間不衝突，但是我們細究一下所謂住宅基金的數字，在明年度的預算裡面，社宅在住宅基金裡面只有38億7,000萬左右，大概40億，包租代管50億，租金補貼350億，換句話說，租房子這件事情（包租代管加租金補貼）就占了400億，那你社宅只花了38億，這個數字來講的話，其實對於整個百萬社宅計畫，你等於是拿租屋補貼的計畫來填充啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：再請部長跟委員會後說明，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第20號陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 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麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":20.669,"end":42.458,"text":"黃元豪院長好 院長我想首先一開始也要跟大家關心上個禮拜我們想這個司法院判決出來說這個死刑存廢的問題當然這個司法院雖然說死刑核限但是呢他有要求說這個各省級合議庭法官的意見必須一致我想這是這樣在這個判決裡面講說法院組織法"},{"start":46.927,"end":50.37,"text":"依照憲法法庭的解釋出來的文字看出來他有這樣的"},{"start":74.189,"end":74.989,"text":"施政院院長黃健豪"},{"start":100.979,"end":117.207,"text":"相關機關兩年內要提出相關的修法我想民調上看得很清楚百分之84、85的民眾是反對廢除死刑的那今天如果相關機關要提出相關修法的話我想請問像行政院或法務部你們算不算相關機關"},{"start":118.528,"end":142.174,"text":"跟委員報告 這個一致覺得這個是屬於平易的審判的一個事務這是規定在法院指示法所以相關機關應該有這個是屬於司法院主管的一個法規所以要有司法院來做一個主政所以到時候這所謂的修法版本不會有你們院版的版本會有行政院的版本他那個事完修法後會會選行政院"},{"start":143.148,"end":144.109,"text":"那你法務部的立場是什麼因為到時候一定會徵詢你們意見嗎因為我想這件事情提出來"},{"start":168.241,"end":192.307,"text":"雖然說這個死刑是合憲的但其實本質上他就是實質廢死那本席在這邊講這東西如果要送到立法院我要講一下你們是民選政府的官員我們是民意代表我們是投票投出來的這麼多民眾去反對這件事情我真的不知道到時候送進立法院裡面在委會審查也好在大院討論也好我們立法委員要怎麼去審這個法案"},{"start":193.087,"end":206.582,"text":"部長或院長你有什麼樣的想法可以教我們我不要怎麼樣去立這個法我不要怎麼樣把法律修到滿足大法官的這個判決才辦法做到這個判決等於零價立法院等於零價行政院的版本"},{"start":208.437,"end":226.845,"text":"報告委員我並不認為現在等於就是把它說成是實質廢死用四個字來形容它原則上它是有條件的核限我們在這個有條件核限的框架底下把一些程序讓它完備完備程序的目的在於不要造成冤枉的判決"},{"start":227.705,"end":227.905,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":244.395,"end":265.379,"text":"跟社會能夠非常的接受再來就是我們可以改變一下居禁的方式用終身居禁來取代無期徒刑那樣的這個方式這個是未來司法跟行政院當中乃至於跟立法院大院當中我們互相可以討論的很多的重點所以原則上我不認為這就是實質廢棄有條件我們能夠把條件當上更合理化我看這兩年"},{"start":271.48,"end":289.97,"text":"到底要怎麼樣溝通才能讓民眾接受這樣子要立審一字決的這個版本另外我要提醒一件事情如果立審一字決才能夠符合所謂的這個正當法律程序原則的話那是不是其他的行者其他的法律相關的法律不是只有死刑"},{"start":290.796,"end":303.706,"text":"那竊盜呢?強盜呢?這些東西是不是歷審都要一致他才符合正當法律程序原則?這個是屬於那個私體面的一個問題那個正當法律程序是要在刑訴訴訟法做一個規範所以"},{"start":308.325,"end":337.809,"text":"對於強盜或其他其他的刑事罪者是不是也都要立審都要一致他才能夠符合如果今天那個判處死刑罪那個最嚴重的那個罪行如果說法院要判處死刑的話那根據憲法法庭憲判第8號的一個規定一個判決的意旨這個是要一致決他這個是屬於從一審二審到最高法院的那個都要所有的法官何一庭的法官都要做一致決才能判處死刑"},{"start":338.209,"end":343.059,"text":"好 部長那還有個意見嘛那其實過去我們都知道說法院的三級三審是"},{"start":344.312,"end":369.768,"text":"如果今天地方法院一審裡面光是一審裡面法官就覺得不需要的時候那他上訴到後面二審、三審之後那你等於剝奪了二審、三審的權利啦過去二審、三審可能跟一審有不一樣的結果那如果今天一審裡面就已經有說有法官不認為他被判處死刑是合理的如果有法官就覺得他不該被判處死刑那所以後面的二審、三審等於也被限制的相關權利了嘛"},{"start":372.283,"end":395.041,"text":"這部份檢察官收到判決﹖會斟酌來做一個上訴不是 部長我請教一下專業問題如果今天一審有法官說認為這個罪犯他不能判處死刑所以一審的法官已經有這樣子的見解了那二審三審的法官他即便覺得他有判處死刑的必要性是不是也無解"},{"start":396.579,"end":412.174,"text":"這個沒有這個問題啊這個一審的話如果說他應該判死刑沒有判死刑的話我想這個檢察官會請求上訴或被害人家屬會請求檢察官來做一個上訴我們會審酌那個檢察會審酌那個判決法官判決良形是否妥適"},{"start":412.97,"end":420.998,"text":"所以你的立審一致決的這個部分是從一審裡面的法官到三審的法官都一致嗎?還是不是?三級三審繼續維持嗎?對啊,我就說要一致決"},{"start":430.106,"end":456.722,"text":"所以如果在地方法院在第一審的時候他就已經判決說不任務就是他已經沒有死刑有法官決定他不該判處死刑那到了檢察官如果覺得因為過去是這樣嘛過去檢察官如果覺得這個人罪行重大但是在地方法院如果沒有判處他死刑所以上訴到這高院高院如果能夠判處他死刑那是不是就有這個死刑的問題那如果現在地方法院第一審的時候就沒有判處死刑了"},{"start":457.89,"end":483.586,"text":"檢察官即便上訴了到二審之後二審的法官也不能推翻一審這件事情吧這個不一定要看個案他如果一審的話應該一致決是要判死刑才有一致決的一個問題如果不是判死刑就沒有一致決的一個問題就譬如說一個最終的一個犯刑如果說一審的法院是判無期徒刑如果說檢察不服或被害人的家屬或被家屬會請求檢案來上訴那個上訴到二審"},{"start":484.406,"end":513.884,"text":"那當然以憲判第80號的一個判決的意思那二審的話要判死還要一致決所以何立廷的三個法官都要都要都要認為就是要判死來 副長這個當然我這個也確認這個東西我想民眾都非常關心啊對才利用這麼多時間來跟你們就教我想這個我們大家都很關心那個法務部也是非常關心這件事情二審如果說要三個二審的何立廷法官如果都決定要判處死刑如果啦假設某個個案是這樣子"},{"start":514.963,"end":535.874,"text":"但是一審的時候還沒有被判處執行這件事情到底是有還是沒有他這樣有沒有能不能被執行事務上會有這種情形那個二審的話如果說認為一審的判決是並未妥適或違法的話二審可以改判二審可以改判嗎可以改判所以他的所謂的立審一次決就不存在了嗎"},{"start":540.055,"end":562.021,"text":"這個都要規定是要一字決才能判死刑啊但是如果說一字決他不判死刑的話我們還是可以上訴啊這個二審也是可以做一字決可以判死刑啊所以二審一字決如果判死刑就是可以判死刑跟一審無關不是因為不服一審的才有上訴到二審嘛二審審核如果一審的原來的判決是不非合法妥適"},{"start":563.137,"end":588.719,"text":"他這樣的話可以改判為實行只要一致決議可以改判為實行好 部長謝謝那我們後面繼續來討論這個問題謝謝部長委員的意思是說一二三審都要一致決對啊判時都要一致決那這個說法是不是在判事第8號這個解釋文上面引申為這樣的說法我認為一定會引起很多的討論的那我們再看看很多的法律專家所以這個說法並不一定是正確並不一定是照他自認這樣的說法一定會引起討論的修法還會再修吧好 謝謝"},{"start":592.503,"end":593.726,"text":"那接下來談論一下地方建設部長謝謝"},{"start":596.192,"end":622.4,"text":"我想我們也有關注我們行政院這個新任部長陳志凱部長的臉書我看到他前兩天發了一個這個reel講到說這個響應世界無車日呼籲民眾我剛剛有個截圖我有截到呼籲民眾來乘坐公共運輸那剛好他所在的位置在台北捷運的藍線那剛好我想明年的預算裡面也編列了台中捷運的藍線我想部長也出生在台中也很清楚知道"},{"start":623.3,"end":651.401,"text":"今天如果身為一個臺中市民他想要響應這個部長的呼籲響應我們院長的呼籲來響應這個世界無車日但卻只有一條捷運可以搭乘的話我想這個就很難去達到這個目標所以今天提到說我想翻到下一頁臺中市的整體捷運路網裡面先講這個捷運藍線當然預計明年要來動工但是我看目前送進來的這個院板的預算那當然現在程序委員會被退回但是目前的版本"},{"start":652.709,"end":652.849,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":677.469,"end":693.203,"text":"報告委員藍線的部分目前正在細部計畫的過程當中明年的預算的部分因為現在正在用地取得的部分用地取得本來就是地方政府會多一些所以它撥了八十幾億中央目前是只有五億"},{"start":693.843,"end":697.868,"text":"中央該補助的金額絕對會照當時我們大家討論好的那個金額下去補助 這個比例上都沒有問題"},{"start":709.48,"end":732.415,"text":"好 謝謝再來院長我要就叫一樣臺中捷運我想部長繼續留著跟這個捷運有關係剛剛上面這個張化的黃議員也有質詢過相關的議題就捷運綠線延伸線的問題我想這卡到所謂的張東都市計劃區那我想這個之前有提到說張東都市計劃區只要有審定那中期的綠線的綜合規劃就能夠抱怨來做相關的審查"},{"start":733.422,"end":733.482,"text":"黃健豪議員"},{"start":754.196,"end":775.775,"text":"是分段通車的方式來執行因為我想北段這邊基本上沒有太大問題他就是很簡單的一個2點多公里的延伸線南段因為涉及到所謂都市計劃的問題那如果都市計劃因為江東都市計劃就如同剛剛前面黃秀芳委員所說的他從議員當到委員了這次自己還沒有成案"},{"start":776.375,"end":797.356,"text":"同樣問題捷運綠線延伸從我當議員到我現在當委員也是一樣看到那個建物的預留線留在那邊但是一直沒有什麼新的進度所以本席今天要問的是說捷運綠線延伸這件事情會因為張東都是計畫而卡關嗎還是有其他的方式可以讓他部分的分階段來通車過去有沒有其他的捷運可以這樣做"},{"start":800.959,"end":818.184,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個部分因為我知道台中市這邊這一端大家希望說這個延伸北屯大坑的這一條線速度可以快一些但是因為往南往彰化那邊還有都市計畫的問題所以速度可能會緩一些慢一些"},{"start":818.824,"end":836.609,"text":"目前因為這條線的延伸正在綜合規劃的過程當中其實我們可以協助地方政府大家一起來討論一下有沒有可能分段來研究分段來研究也就是說我們大坑段的部分的綜合規劃是不是我們走快一點可不可以分段來處理這個部分我們會來協助地方政府大家一起來討論看看"},{"start":837.709,"end":837.909,"text":"臺中捷運目前虧損狀態"},{"start":854.339,"end":882.584,"text":"那我想捷運虧損從以前的臺北捷運以前的高雄捷運大家都經歷過這段時間為什麼就是因為捷運那時候就一挑的時候它一定會虧損因為沒有人流嘛那今天我們希望入網能夠形成那今天明年來講捷運藍線即將動工那台中的捷運坦白講全國第二大城它的進度的確比其他城市慢了非常多所以我想問一下我們這個行政院這邊到底對於未來我們捷運包含說局限連結到中科連結到台中車站"},{"start":883.604,"end":903.435,"text":"還有捷運有條紅線整個崇德路這一條很重要的一個紅線因為我知道紅線目前本來預計10年後才會開始評估那我們也有爭取我想交通部也支持 行政院也支持希望讓這個捷運紅線能夠提早開始規劃我想問一下這兩個案子橘線跟紅線有沒有機會加速的來趕快來執行"},{"start":906.432,"end":934.233,"text":"跟委員報告目前局限我們正在可行性評估當中那這個部分就由市政府這邊他速度加快我們這邊也會來協助這個沒有問題我希望可行性研究的部分走快一點那另外一個部分您所提到的紅線也就是臺中的崇德一直到豐原的這一段那這一段確實現在的車流量非常的大那也因為您的爭取跟地方政府的爭取我們目前針對可行性研究的部分中央已經會盡量來提供協助跟補助"},{"start":935.114,"end":954.373,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝我們交通部的再次想感謝我們院長跟交通部這個臺中捷運真的非常重要要不然其實第二大城一直沒有捷運這件事情其實是很荒謬的事情所以要拜託這個中央權力的支持因為經費上面跟文書作業上各種的審查作業我們都希望能夠減短一點可以不可以"},{"start":956.494,"end":977.888,"text":"院長我們盡量依照地方這麼強大的需求那中央在離定計畫跟地方提出各種評估之後能夠在施政上跟地方來配合當然我們願意工程早日的進行跟完工這個當然是我們的期待好 院長謝謝那接下來還是地方建設要跟院長反映一下這過去有會刊 這個部長謝謝"},{"start":980.823,"end":1004.391,"text":"這過去有會勘過啦就是我們國立自然科學博物館的設備的更新經費我講科博館這個已經成立了快要40年了比我年紀還大我也在這邊當過志工啊我講科博館是臺中的很重要的一個場館也是全國來講很重要場館在統計上面來講他是全國第2 觀光人數道館人數第2名的這個博物館但他的經費他的這個設備的確我講了這個比較可憐一點的事情"},{"start":1009.178,"end":1023.485,"text":"我高中的時候16歲17歲的時候去當他的志工我跟院長報告如果今天你來台中科普館再參訪我還可以辦導覽因為沒有什麼改變啊那種基本上一樣20年前的事情"},{"start":1024.475,"end":1053.47,"text":"那更不用講從以前到現在這個場館基本上沒有太大的更新所以這個當然相關計畫後續科目館他們應該也會報教育部也會報但是我要講的是我們今年其實有去會館有幾個比較重點的部分因為是有會議紀錄的會議紀錄沒有提到說包含說這個太空劇場太空劇場這個東西在幾十年前科目館剛落成的時候剛弄起來這個球型的所謂的這個劇場哇 那時候很先進啊"},{"start":1054.318,"end":1065.278,"text":"三十幾年前非常先進那時候還沒有IMAX那時候的科普館是非常先進的地方但是如果現在再去同樣的這個所謂太空劇場去看他的這個影像"},{"start":1066.306,"end":1076.155,"text":"這就有480P而已啊但我們現在進入4K階段了結果他的影像還是這樣子沒有更新到所以那時候我們去會刊的時候當時這個會刊記錄有講說要試113年經費結餘情形或最遲納入114年的預算來調配處理"},{"start":1084.562,"end":1084.762,"text":"黃健豪議員"},{"start":1100.678,"end":1100.818,"text":"黃健豪議員"},{"start":1130.898,"end":1157.966,"text":"怎麼辦我也同意我們包括自然科學在內日新月異的進步我們給國人或是給下一代年輕朋友應該有一個符合現代臺灣在這個學科上面應該有的一個呈現那或許是沒有提到地方基礎上的需求那如果我們進一步的來請教委員或是地方政府或是其他的地方如果在往後的年度可以把它納進去一個計畫的話那我們應該可以審慎的來評估"},{"start":1160.475,"end":1175.806,"text":"沒有啦 院長你不能往後年度啦這個是會議紀錄我再給你報告一下這個是官方會議回來不是我們服務處做的喔我們服務處做得更細但是官方提供的會議紀錄裡面已經提了理論上今年113年度有結預款就可以拿來用或是最遲"},{"start":1176.667,"end":1177.368,"text":"教育部有沒有什麼計畫?"},{"start":1192.35,"end":1211.922,"text":"跟委員報告,非常感謝委員關心科博館的所有工程,包括展示上的工程改善。確實我們在112年已經有先給科博館有一個先期的規劃會,"},{"start":1214.023,"end":1225.687,"text":"當時也有關這個污水納管的工程跟太空劇場的這些雷射投影機的一個計畫確實當時也說在今年我們在汛期過後如果這個經費上能夠有剩餘的經費我們會優先來支持"},{"start":1233.17,"end":1255.144,"text":"另外也跟委員報告科博館目前它本身這個基金的一個剩餘也有1億3000多萬所以當時我們也跟交館長說假設有急迫性你就先在現有的基金裡面先處理至於這個有關蓋新的一個大樓總共要大概我今天沒有人提蓋新大樓"},{"start":1256.244,"end":1259.345,"text":"新建大樓將近要50億我們已經先給規劃會了在去年就先給規劃會那今年在考慮在迅期之後我們也會"},{"start":1275.011,"end":1297.169,"text":"這一個有關污水跟太空機場的這一個部分的一個改善我們也同意在信息的經費節餘我們會優先來補助那如果在時間上交館長他認為應該優先處理我們也同意他這一個在現有的一個基金裡邊有還有一億三千多萬他可以優先來做處理"},{"start":1297.529,"end":1319.842,"text":"我想這個不是單一館長或單一場館的問題啦我今天會在這邊提如果今天只是一個場館問題我們就私下寫一條會就好今天特別提出來跟院長講就是因為今天這個是官方的會議紀錄有講了明確的講了要列入最遲114年教育部的預算裡面"},{"start":1321.151,"end":1333.08,"text":"結果卻沒有列入那我是說這樣的承諾這樣子會議記錄不就等於無效了嗎那如果以後都這樣子做的話那立法委員跟行政部門之間要怎麼樣互信要怎麼樣去溝通要怎麼樣去協調"},{"start":1334.52,"end":1361.208,"text":"今天是白紙黑字寫的 不是空口說白話 大家好好好基本上講一講就沒事了今天是有官方會議紀錄的東西那如果今天 剛剛你提到的這個什麼場館50億 那個東西我知道所以我也沒在這邊提 因為那是長期計畫今天是簡短的 簡單的國家預算三兆多裡面 這個攸關國家科學發展一個場館也就是兩千多萬 頂多四千萬 不同計畫裡面今天一個設備兩千多萬 拿不出來"},{"start":1361.988,"end":1385.384,"text":"議長,謝謝!"},{"start":1387.273,"end":1412.213,"text":"接下來我想下個月是國慶日我想提到國慶我想最近大家常常暑假期間很多委員都訪美我也跟院長和大院來分享在訪美之後看到一個景象就是他們真的家家戶戶很多企業也好民間也好真的四處都會輕易的見到他們美國的國旗這個場景在台灣相對來講會比較少見一點"},{"start":1413.914,"end":1434.402,"text":"好 那為什麼今天特別提出來呢我想因為 最近 一個 要國慶第二個 我想兩岸關係也緊張大家常常說 我們這個戰力要提升新戰也很重要新戰就包含說 民眾對國家的認同感所以我們希望國企除了在國慶日的時候能夠懸掛之外"},{"start":1435.502,"end":1459.796,"text":"當然相關的這個法令有要求啦這個紀念日節日實施辦法國家紀念日是要來在中央機關在機關裡面來懸掛國旗但是並沒有去鼓勵民間來懸掛國旗所以我今天特別提出來是希望說向院長提出建議是不是能夠獎勵或補助民眾在特定的節日或是什麼國旗日或國慶日等等的來購買或者你就乾脆送大家去掛國旗嘛"},{"start":1460.643,"end":1490.11,"text":"院長你覺得這有可能嗎謝謝委員雖然我認為國旗重要是掛在心中但是能夠掛在路面上過幾天你就會看到整個凱道都會有很多的國旗總統府也開始布置了每個人讓自己對愛國心的表達會有不同的方式我們都予以尊重那懸掛國旗當然也是一種就像我們在奧運的時候我們雖然看到的是我們的會旗但是唱起國旗歌大家還是非常澎湃像我也把國旗放在手錶上這個也是一種表示你也看到"},{"start":1490.99,"end":1516.083,"text":"謝謝 謝謝院長因為我想這個還是要提一下這個最近用者的名字叫做認知作戰啊認知作戰對內也很重要啊就讓民眾認知到我們是這個中華民國我們對外團結一致所以這個平常就要建立起來這也是我去這個暑假期間訪美的時候我特別看到他們國家甚至跟他們政治部聊天他們也講平常就要建立起這樣的文化"},{"start":1517.165,"end":1518.886,"text":"凡事有助於國人團結以國家為最終目標的這種團結任何的表現的形式我都認為是好的"},{"start":1538.28,"end":1548.706,"text":"不僅是尊重如果大家有好的意見我們都可以共同來討論也支持好 院長謝謝那接下來現在沒有多少時間了我延續上一次的這個質詢有提到所謂外籍勞工的問題"},{"start":1550.472,"end":1580.212,"text":"在上次7月9號的時候我們跟院長總質詢的時候也提到下半年會來討論開放所謂外籍家庭幫傭的議題那院長也提到說營造更好的帶小孩的環境讓女性能夠重新參與勞動市場絕對是對生育率有所幫助那所以本國目前是這個三名60歲以下才能申請這個家庭幫傭比較嚴下半年要來檢討那這個部長也提到下半年要來檢討那我想已經下半年了已經即將第四季啦"},{"start":1585.536,"end":1607.294,"text":"請部長跟委員說明我們之間討論的過程跟現在的想法跟委員報告 院長一直非常關心然後也一直指示我們要針對您的這個提議要來研究那麼先跟您報告我們初步先使用我們先進行我們的多元陪伴服務方案的處理現在我們已經"},{"start":1608.355,"end":1634.265,"text":"進入這個正式的把多元陪伴服務方案就是所謂的終點移工我們甚至已經把這個具體的那個時程都訂出來了大概在今年11月底我們就可以提供服務了那我們是不是先就這個方案來先做一個試辦之後呢我們會在下半年我們看這個方案進行的情況如何因為其實這個方案其實也有點類似"},{"start":1635.686,"end":1662.014,"text":"可以類似就是像家庭幫傭這樣的功能對於顧老跟顧小都可以cover而且是沒有這個服務對象的這個資格的設限的沒有很所以是不是可以允許我們把這個事辦方案我們看成效如何如果可以的話也許我們逐步來推動委員所提的建議這樣子部長謝謝因為其實這個提出來最主要就是希望"},{"start":1662.914,"end":1663.074,"text":"黃健豪議員"},{"start":1678.425,"end":1696.888,"text":"少子化是一個非常嚴肅的議題那少子化當然很多原因那其中一個最重要的就是現代的雙薪家庭的問題嘛我今天之所以提出來這個外籍幫優放寬的原因就第一個我國的這個所謂的白領的外籍這個這些這個高階白領階級他們是可以直接看薪水來決定"},{"start":1697.449,"end":1698.39,"text":"發言委員：黃健豪發言委員：黃健豪"},{"start":1723.723,"end":1736.803,"text":"他除了上班之外回來他能夠鬆開他的雙手他可以不用去背這些書榜他可以多背他的小孩甚至陪他上學等等的所以我們才希望說這個方向能夠往這方去走好不好 院長跟部長"},{"start":1738.251,"end":1740.292,"text":"最後剩下一分鐘我來跟大家討論一下我們社會主宰的問題"},{"start":1761.277,"end":1787.708,"text":"先看這個數字啊5月31號的時候目標還是12萬6869到8月31不知道為什麼只剩下12萬1938有五千會不見當然細節我們沒辦法跟討論了因為時間不夠但是這個數字我想讓院長看到一下就為什麼我們的社會住宅的這個數字降低反而降低了那另外我想今天稍早其他委員有關心社宅政策有提到所謂住宅基金的問題那當時候大家講說這個"},{"start":1791.145,"end":1816.899,"text":"社會住宅跟租金補貼彼此之間不衝突但是我們細究一下所謂住宅基金的數字在明年度的預算裡面社宅在住宅基金裡面只有38億7千萬左右大概40億到包租代管50億租金補貼350億換句話說租房這件事情包租代管加租金補貼就佔了400億那你社宅只花了38億"},{"start":1818.496,"end":1818.956,"text":"謝謝黃健豪委員的質詢 謝謝卓院長的備詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:31:31 - 17:02:13","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154885"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:15:24","end_time":"2024-09-24T17:17:51+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154884","gazette":{"lineno":694,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（17時2分）謝謝院長，請院長邀請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好！"],["陳委員素月：卓院長，午安，辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會。"],["陳委員素月：我們知道農業可以說是國家一個很重要的部分，彰化縣是農業也是工業的農工混合大縣，南彰化也是重要的一個農業生產區。目前國土計畫法實施在即，因為2015年12月18日在立法院完成三讀之後，一直到2016年5月1日，馬英九總統任內在即將卸任之前公告要施行，目前就是要一直按照這個時程在進行當中。隨著這個要實施的時間逼近，在地方真的也越來越多人在討論、關注這個議題，尤其是很多我們農業地區的農民，因為他們對於他們的農地、土地都非常地關心。相信大家都聽過一句話，以前老一輩的人都說：有土斯有財，所以土地對農民來說，真的是他們非常在意、要捍衛的一個要項。現在在地方都在瘋傳，說這個國土計畫法如果實施之後，農地就要被判死刑了，然後農民就永無翻身之日了。對這樣子的一個說法，我不曉得我們行政部門有什麼可以去澄清的，可以很簡單地讓農民可以知道？"],["卓院長榮泰：請陳部長說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，國土計畫裡面針對農業發展區的部分，其實我們都有一個共通的目的，就是為了農業永續發展，這是非常重要的，而且不會讓過往的土地破碎化，而造成更嚴重的生態影響。","第二個部分要跟委員說明的，您剛才說地方政府有一些對於國土計畫裡面農業發展區農一、農二、農三的劃設有不一樣的意見，這個部分我想以農業部的立場，他們這樣不同的考量是可以持續做溝通的。因為劃設有劃設的原則，但是也會依據縣市政府當地所在的產業的需求而調整，非常重要的就是中央跟地方一定會互相去做後續的溝通跟討論，這是非常重要的。","第三個部分要跟委員說明的，農業部針對整個農地農用的部分是完全沒有影響的，只要農地從事農用的部分完全沒有影響，農業部也會持續配合整個國家的希望工程，我們會發展以農村為發展中心的一個永續支持系統，這個支持系統就是我們看農地絕對不能是看農一、農二，因為農業不只是生產，農業還有很多農村的生活。這個部分我想我們會持續去規劃跟執行，它不會因為國土計畫的如期實施或延後而改變，以上。"],["陳委員素月：因為國土計畫法的立法要旨有提到，為了因應氣候變遷，確保國土安全，保育自然環境與人文資產，促進資源與產業合理配置，強化國土整合管理機制，並復育環境敏感與國土破壞地區，追求國家永續發展。這樣子的立法目的當然我們都贊成，可是我想請教一下院長，國土計畫法真的實施之後，可以達到這樣一個理想的境界嗎？是可以解決目前農地所面臨問題的一個萬靈丹嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照剛剛委員所列的時程表來看，國土計畫法在公告立法的時候，我認為還是會站在一個以國家土地永續利用的這種方式來保存最好的農地的方向來進展，但是現在看起來，很多國人或是農民對它裡面的一些文字等等的解釋都會產生疑慮，這個部分內政部也好、農業部也好，這段期間以來事實上非常積極地在做溝通跟說明，我們也希望這個溝通說明能夠有效，大家在這個法的精神底下如何去推動，讓所有的農地分級之後能夠得到妥適的使用跟它應該保障的農民的權益。","目前看起來還有一些縣市，我所知道還有9個縣市，他們目前還是沒有辦法在這種溝通跟說明之下，照時程把分區的功能圖送過來。"],["陳委員素月：當然這是一個問題啦！可是就目前已經送出來的或者是已經有草案的這些資料來看，看起來國土計畫的實施號稱未來希望讓農地總量不變，要追求國家的永續發展，可是照這個數字統計，部分的結果看起來農一的面積反而是少於目前區域計畫中特定農業區的面積，所以這樣子是不是也違背了我們原來的立法要旨？這是一項。","另外，我們也看到有一個縣市，針對水庫的這個區域，原本目前是屬於山坡地的保育區，可是如果在國土計畫法調整之後，反而變成農三，是可以開發的，這樣不是也違背了我們要追求國土保育的要旨嗎？目前我們看到存在一些矛盾，所以當然會引起民眾的疑慮，也讓很多有心人士來見縫插針，就造成地方的紛紛擾擾、民心不安。所以我覺得如果一個政策沒有辦法說服民眾、說服農民，而且如果這個政策實施之後沒有辦法比以前的政策更好的話，我們是不是要先緩一緩，審慎地評估之後再來實施？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：請內政部回答。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝，委員非常關心農業跟農民的權益。我們知道國土計畫法是在明年要一併公告，目前有13個縣市送上來，就表示13個縣市他們在有關於國土計畫的功能分區上面願意跟中央政府來多做溝通。委員關心比較多的是在於農地方面的處理，目前為止，有關農地的處理還有農業本身的發展，在我們的檢討當中我們認為應該把鄉村規劃或是把農業發展好好地劃到我們的國土計畫裡面，同時，針對已經送上來的13個縣市政府裡面，我們也認為他們有討論的空間。委員所提到的也許有某一個水庫、區域裡面可能在劃地上面有問題，事實上，在國土計畫法真正開始實施第11年，也就是115年之後，我們會有國土永續發展基金，大概目前編列是以500億的方式來解決有關環境敏感地區裡面，如果碰到國土復育的時候必須要做其他的補償或其他相對的措施。所以不管是因應氣候變遷或者是環境保育，我們其實一步一步往前走，但是對於有關於農地劃分部分的話，就會像委員所說的，我們現在對於農一、農二總共的總量管制，其實要各個縣市地方政府願意坐下來跟農業部或是跟內政部一起來討論，才有一個發展的方向。所以委員跟很多其他關心的委員所開的記者會，我們是一個字、一個字在評估當中，如果認為國土計畫法有修正必要的話，我們願意從善如流，但是所謂的展延部分並沒有完全解決問題，展延沒有辦法對已經繳交國土功能分區表的縣市表示這個展延對他們有任何其他繼續往前走的部分。所以我們在想有沒有什麼樣的方式，讓縣市地方政府在處理相關的農地或是其他的土地、城鄉發展區域劃分的時候，可以繼續跟中央政府保持溝通，但是這樣的國土功能分區部分不要停，既然可以不要停的話，我們可以跟農業單位、農政單位或是跟其他在乎國土功能分區的環保單位，或是其他的學者專家再做很好的溝通，這一部分我們會從善如流，也會跟農業部或是相關的部會做一個比較完善的解釋。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝部長。目前國土計畫法在進行當中，就如同我剛剛所舉的兩個點，我們可以看得出來各地方政府的劃設標準不一，或者他們委託顧問公司來做只是做圖資套繪，並沒有做現場會勘。所以我們希望應該要有更多的時間來做溝通，然後讓民眾的疑慮可以消除，在整個完整配套沒有到位之前，我們還是希望國土計畫法能夠暫緩實施，謝謝劉部長。","接下來我請教一下有關農損的部分。在這一次7月下旬有關凱米颱風造成我們全國從北到南很多的災害，不管是淹水也好或是農業損失，當時總統跟院長都有馬上去勘災，而且都馬上對外宣示對農業損失的現金救助部分要從速、從寬、從簡；可是已經過了一個多月，快兩個月了，目前很多的農民都還沒有收到現金救助，甚至是已經被退件，或者是在送案的時候，會勘單位有很多的意見，跟當時中央、長官所宣示的完全有落差，所以也造成地方農民的一些怨言，我們希望在這部分是不是可以請部長關心一下？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員說明，在凱米颱風來的時候，其實我們做了幾件事情是比過往更快速的，過往都是地方去勘查以後報到中央再公告，這次我們是由中央的同仁跟地方一起，地方看了以後就主動公告，這個過程的時間大概省了7天到10天。第二個部分，因為公告以後還是要回到公所去審查，有一部分是免現勘的，我們認為它的災情如果有普遍性，而且有一致性的時候，我們就會公告為免現勘，免現勘的話就不用去現場看，你只要有耕作的事實，這個部分也從速了。唯一比較麻煩的就是因為這一次的品項比較多，公所還是要去現場看，現場看了以後還要縣府複勘，複勘完了以後才報農業部，農業部7天之內一定會付款，所以現在後面的部分，我們會再來努力，後續看用怎麼樣的方式來加速。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝部長，因為我還有兩個問題。農損部分拜託部長能夠多加關心，讓農民真的可以感受到我們政府對他們照顧的心意。","另外一個問題，我想請問一下有關流浪犬的問題，在我的選區、在彰化縣流浪犬的數字真的很高。在二水有愛護動物的善心人士主動地來協助流浪犬的收容，進行結紮然後再回放，可是因為他利用的土地是在林務局的土地，林務局本來要跟他開罰，目前是沒有開單，而是要求他要移除，可是我覺得這個不是他個人的問題，因為他也是做義務性的，所以這個應該是整個公部門要來解決的問題，如果他今天也撒手不管的時候，整個變成豐柏廣場、松柏嶺風景區都是流浪犬在那邊亂竄，對遊客也是一個很大的威脅。所以我們希望在流浪犬的安置上，我們知道目前因為時代進步，我們都有愛護動物這樣的觀念，在2017年法令也規定了禁止全面的撲殺，所以我們不撲殺，可是我們也要有另外一個配套的措施，讓這樣子的政策更完整，是不是請部長再用心一下？","最後一個問題，我們知道在最近兩年因為雞蛋缺蛋的問題，也造成農業部很大的一個壓力，在去年我們也進口了雞蛋，也引發在野黨很多見縫插針的操作，甚至在這次國會擴權的過程當中，他們也用這個議題說要查弊案。剛剛本席得到的消息說目前農業部有遭受到檢調的搜索，我不曉得這個跟案子有關係嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們所得到的訊息就是中午回辦公室的時候，檢調單位針對雞蛋的部分有來請畜產會的同仁跟相關的本會同仁到……應該是到檢調單位那邊去做一些詢問跟約談，至於說到底是什麼樣的方式，我想因為偵查不公開的方式，我不便說明。"],["陳委員素月：對，當然我們尊重偵查不公開啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員素月：當然，農業部真的是責任重大，因為這是關心著民生的議題，不管是農民農業的生產，或者是畜牧業等等，真的面向非常地廣，尤其是目前面臨極端氣候的威脅，我們要做的事情非常地多，我們也希望陳部長要加油。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員素月：對，因為我們目前在地方遇到很多的問題，也希望能夠獲得農業部更多的支持跟積極的協助。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝卓院長。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，我們非常謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長以及各部會首長列席答詢。現在作以下決定：下次會議繼續進行施政報告之質詢。我們現在散會。","散會（17時18分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137501_00010"}},"委員名稱":"陳素月","duration":924,"start_time":"2024-09-24T17:02:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdc7d5d95287b8947f6346d29aeea0cb9fd6e84e674c262d35fa0dfa50724638a3474509b675d045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.67846875,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.52596875,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.00534375,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":30.203468750000003,"end":32.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.21159375,"end":32.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":33.03846875,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":35.502218750000004,"end":58.502843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":58.907843750000005,"end":65.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":65.60721875,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":70.12971875000001,"end":108.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":108.99284375,"end":118.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":118.44284375000001,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":120.58596875,"end":123.64034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.87659375000001,"end":123.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.89346875000001,"end":124.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.24784375,"end":124.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.53471875000001,"end":124.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.56846875000001,"end":124.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.73721875000001,"end":125.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.37846875000001,"end":125.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.71596875,"end":130.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.87971875,"end":135.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.82409375,"end":141.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.91596875000002,"end":145.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.86471875,"end":151.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.88909375,"end":153.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.47534375,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.46659375000002,"end":157.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.82909375,"end":160.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.52909375000002,"end":162.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.65534375000001,"end":163.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.66784375,"end":169.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.38409375,"end":173.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.79284375,"end":177.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.30284375000002,"end":179.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.17159375,"end":185.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.55471875,"end":193.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.12721875000003,"end":199.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.98284375,"end":201.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.67034375,"end":204.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.60659375,"end":219.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":220.31721875000002,"end":224.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":224.28284375,"end":236.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.59846875000002,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":236.71971875000003,"end":248.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":248.98784375000002,"end":252.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":252.91971875000002,"end":262.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.92659375,"end":266.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.47034375000004,"end":268.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.83284375,"end":269.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.46971875,"end":271.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.87034375,"end":275.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.58284375,"end":277.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.24909375000004,"end":278.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.05909375000005,"end":280.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.89846875,"end":283.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.29471875,"end":285.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.31971875,"end":286.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.51784375,"end":287.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.59784375000004,"end":289.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.70721875000004,"end":293.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.43659375000004,"end":295.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.61346875000004,"end":297.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.94221875,"end":298.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.93784375,"end":299.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.61284375,"end":304.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","st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農業發展區 農業 農二 農三"},{"start":155.512,"end":179.538,"text":"以農業部的一個立場他們這樣子的一個不同的考量是可以持續做溝通的因為化社有化社的原則但是也會依據縣市政府當地所在的產業的需求而調整但是非常重要就是中央跟地方一定會互相去做後續的溝通跟討論這是非常重要的那第三個部分要跟委員說明的就是"},{"start":180.559,"end":199.396,"text":"農業部針對整個農地農用的部分來講是完全沒有影響你只要農地從事農用的部分完全沒有影響那農業部也會持續的針對配合整個國家的希望工程裡面我們會發展以農村為發展中心的一個永續的一個支持系統"},{"start":199.957,"end":200.137,"text":"主席"},{"start":221.51,"end":241.375,"text":"國土計畫法 立法要旨提到為了因應氣候變遷 確保國土安全保育自然環境與人文資產促進資源與產業合理配置強化國土整合管理機制並賦予環境敏感與國土破壞地區追求國家永續發展"},{"start":243.155,"end":244.576,"text":"國土計畫法實施後可以達到這樣的理想境界嗎?可以解決目前農地面臨問題的萬靈丹嗎?"},{"start":262.952,"end":277.347,"text":"依照剛剛委員所列的施政表國土激發法在公告立法的時候我認為還是會站在一個以國家土地永續利用的這種方式來保存最好的農地的方向來進展"},{"start":278.308,"end":295.18,"text":"但是現在看起來很多國人或是農民對他裡面的一些文字等等的解釋都會產生疑慮那這個部分內政部也好農業部也好這期間以來實際上非常積極的在做溝通跟說明那我們也希望這個溝通說明能夠有效"},{"start":295.74,"end":295.86,"text":"主席"},{"start":317.265,"end":334.507,"text":"當然這是一個問題可是我們就是說就目前已經送出來的就是說或者是已經有草案的這些資料來看我們看出來就是說國土計畫的實施號稱說未來希望就是讓這個農地種量不變就是要追求國家的永續一個發展"},{"start":336.168,"end":336.369,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":353.423,"end":379.978,"text":"我們也看到有一個縣市它針對這個水庫的區域它原本目前是屬於山坡地的保育區可是它如果在國土計畫法調整之後它反而變成龍山是可以開發的這樣不是也是違背了我們要追求國土保育的一個要旨嗎所以這個目前就是說我們看到很多存在一些矛盾所以當然會引起民眾的疑慮"},{"start":380.598,"end":381.078,"text":"請內政部回答"},{"start":409.134,"end":430.365,"text":"謝謝委員非常關心農業跟農民的權益我們知道說這個國土計劃法他是在明年的時候要所謂的一併公告目前13個縣市送上來表示13個縣市他們在有關於國土計劃的功能分區上面他們願意跟中央政府來多做溝通委員所關心比較多是在於農地方面的處理"},{"start":431.065,"end":435.246,"text":"目前為止 農地的處理還有農業本身的發展在我們的檢討當中我們認為應該把鄉村規劃或是跟農業發展好好的把它劃到我們的國土計劃裡面同時針對已經送上來的13個縣市政府裡面我們也認為說他們有討論的空間委員所提到說也許有某一個什麼水庫區域裡面它可能在劃地上面有問題事實上"},{"start":456.411,"end":478.679,"text":"在國土計劃法徵政開始實施第11年也就是115年之後我們會有國土的永續發展基金大概目前編列是以500億的方式來解決有關這個環境敏感地區裡面如果碰到國土富裕的時候必須要做其他的補償或其他的相對的對立的措施所以不管是說因應氣候變遷或者是環境保育我們其實一步一步往前走"},{"start":479.179,"end":479.319,"text":"農業部﹚內政部﹚"},{"start":495.982,"end":521.635,"text":"所以委員跟很多其他關心的委員所開的這個記者會我們是一個字一個字在評估當中如果認為國土計劃法有修正的必要的話我們願意從善如流但是所謂的展言的部分並沒有完全解決問題展言的話你沒有辦法對已經繳交國土功能分區表的縣市表示說這個展言對他們有任何其他繼續往前走的部分所以我們在想說有沒有什麼樣的方式讓"},{"start":522.495,"end":522.555,"text":"﹚陳素月﹚"},{"start":555.697,"end":570.749,"text":"國土計畫法目前在進行的當中我們就是就如同我剛剛所舉的兩個點就是我們可以看得出來各地地方政府的一個劃設標準的不一或者是說他們委託公務公司來做只是做這個圖資的套會"},{"start":571.389,"end":571.429,"text":"主席"},{"start":593.126,"end":593.146,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":612.283,"end":627.416,"text":"當時總統跟院長都有馬上去勘栽而且都馬上對外宣示說對農業的施的現金救助部分要重塑、重寬、重減可是目前已經過了一個多月快兩個月了目前很多的農民他們都還沒有收到"},{"start":627.836,"end":628.436,"text":"請部長關心"},{"start":656.54,"end":672.155,"text":"我先跟委員說明就是在那個堪比颱風來的時候其實我們做的幾件事情是比過往更快速的就是過往都是地方去勘察以後報到中央以後再公告那這一次我們是由中央的同仁"},{"start":672.856,"end":699.583,"text":"跟地方一起地方看了以後就主動公告那那個時間大概省了7天到10天這個過程那第二個部分就是公告以後本身的因為還是要回到公所去審查那有一部分是免現刊的我們認為他的災情如果有普遍性而且有一致性的時候我們就會公告為免現刊那免現刊的話就不用去現場看你只要有這個跟作的事實"},{"start":700.223,"end":700.323,"text":"我還有兩個問題"},{"start":725.186,"end":750.568,"text":"接下來就是這個農損部分就是拜託部長這邊能夠多加關心讓農民真的可以感受到我們政府對他們照顧的一個心意另外一個問題我想請問一下有關流浪犬的問題就是在我的選區在彰化縣這個流浪犬的數字真的很高那在二水就是有這個愛護動物的善心人士他主動的來提供"},{"start":751.028,"end":751.068,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":768.027,"end":796.15,"text":"可是我覺得這個不是他個人的問題因為他也是做義務性的所以這個應該是整個公部門要來解決的問題如果說他今天他也撒手不管的時候那整個市變成風博廣場風博嶺這個風景區就是都是流浪犬在那邊亂竄對旅客 遊客也是一個很大的一個威脅所以我們希望就是說在這個流浪犬的一個安置因為我們知道當然就是說目前一個時代的進步我們都"},{"start":796.55,"end":797.01,"text":"陳素月議員陳素月議員"},{"start":821.34,"end":821.48,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":837.984,"end":838.284,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":856.661,"end":878.087,"text":"所得到訊息就是中午回辦公室的時候那檢調單位針對雞蛋的部分有來請續場會的同仁跟相關的本會的同仁到那個應該是檢調單位那邊去做一些詢問跟約談那至於說到底是什麼樣的方式我想因為政察不公開的方式我不便說明"},{"start":878.643,"end":878.683,"text":"陳副部長"},{"start":907.655,"end":907.776,"text":"陳素月議員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"17:02:27 - 17:17:51","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154884"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:30:33","end_time":"2024-09-24T17:02:08+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154883","gazette":{"lineno":606,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（16時31分）謝謝大會主席，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：院長好。院長，首先一開始也要關心上個禮拜司法院判決出來有關死刑存廢的問題，當然司法院雖然說死刑合憲，但是要求各審級合議庭法官的意見必須一致。我想是這樣，在這個判決裡面有提到，法院組織法沒有明定要合議庭法官一致才可以判處死刑，這件事情違反了正當法律程序原則，那我想問一下，意思是在三審裡面的所有法官都要判決一致才符合正當法律程序原則，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照憲法法庭解釋出來的文字來看，它有這樣的期待，就是要一致決，至於程序上的問題，我們往後還會有相當一段時間要進行各種修法，這個細節部分法務部已經在研究當中。"],["黃委員健豪：我想如同院長剛剛所說的，其實這部分我也覺得很疑惑，可是如果要針對程序問題要求到這麼細緻的話，它本質上是立法問題，不應該是司法解釋的問題。這個判決裡面也講相關機關兩年內要提出相關修法，但是從民調看得很清楚，84%、85%的民眾是反對廢除死刑的，今天如果相關機關要提出相關修法的話，請問行政院或法務部，你們算不算相關機關？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個一致決是屬於評議審判事務，規定在法院組織法中，是屬於司法院主管的一個法規，所以要由司法院來主政。"],["黃委員健豪：所以到時候所謂的修法版本不會有你們院版，就是不會有行政院的版本？"],["鄭部長銘謙：司法院修法後會會銜行政院提出。"],["黃委員健豪：那行政院會提出版本嗎？還是全部都是司法院來提？"],["鄭部長銘謙：主政的是司法院，所以司法院會會銜行政院再送立法院審議。"],["黃委員健豪：那你法務部的立場是什麼？因為到時候一定會徵詢你們意見嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分在進行法制作業的時候，我會再提出我們的意見。"],["黃委員健豪：因為這個判決提出來，雖然說死刑是合憲的，但其實已經是實質廢死了，本席要在這邊講，這東西如果要送到立法院，你們是民選政府的官員，我們是民意代表，我們是人民投票投出來的，這麼多民眾反對這件事情，我真的不知道到時候送進立法院，不管在委員會審查也好，在大院討論也好，我們立法委員要怎麼去審這個法案。不知道部長或院長有什麼樣的想法可以教我們，我們要怎麼樣去立這個法，我們要怎麼樣把法律修到可以滿足大法官的這個判決？司法院這個判決等於凌駕立法院，等於凌駕行政院的版本！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我並不認為現在等於就是把它說成是「實質廢死」，用4個字來形容，原則上它是有條件的合憲，我們在這個有條件合憲的框架底下，把一些程序讓它完備。完備程序的目的，在於不要造成冤枉的判決，但是我們在完備的過程當中，可以對很多的過程，比方我們可以慎重對這些重大案件的各種事後的一些檢驗，包括它是不是經過一定的鑑定，這個鑑定的過程也要跟社會能夠非常地接受；再來就是我們可以改變一下拘禁的方式，用終身拘禁取代無期徒刑這樣的方式，這都是未來司法跟行政院當中，乃至於跟立法院、大院當中，我們互相可以討論的很多重點。所以原則上我不認為這就是實質廢死，就是有條件，我們一定會把條件讓它更合理化。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，院長，我想你現在的立場一直覺得要跟民眾、跟立法院溝通，我就看看這兩年到底要怎麼樣溝通，才能夠讓民眾接受要歷審一致決的這個版本。","另外我要提醒一件事情，如果歷審一致決才能夠符合所謂正當法律程序原則的話，那是不是其他的刑責、其他的法律、相關的法律不是只有死刑，那竊盜呢？強盜呢？這類是不是歷審都要一致，它才符合正當法律程序原則？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員所提的，這是屬於實體面的一個問題，那個正當法律程序是要在刑事訴訟法做規範。"],["黃委員健豪：我是說，所以對於強盜或其他的刑事罪責，是不是也都歷審要一致，它才能夠符合？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果今天判處死刑、最嚴重的那個罪刑，如果法院要判處死刑的話，根據憲法法庭憲判第8號的規定、判決的意旨，這個是要一致決，這個是屬於從一審、二審到最高法院，都要所有的法官、合議庭的法官就要做一致決才能判處死刑。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，還有一個意見，其實過去我們都知道法院是三級三審制，如果今天地方法院一審裡面，光是一審裡面法官就覺得不需要的時候，他上訴到後面的二審、三審之後，那你等於剝奪了二審、三審的權利了啊！過去本來二審、三審可能可以跟一審有不一樣的結果，如果今天一審裡面就已經有法官不認為他被判處死刑是合理的，如果有法官覺得他不該被判處死刑，所以後面的二審、三審等於也被限制了相關權利嘛！那不就實質廢死了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分檢察官收到判決會斟酌上訴。"],["黃委員健豪：不是，部長，我請教一下專業問題嘛！如果今天一審有法官認為這個罪犯他不能判處死刑，所以一審的法官已經有這樣子的見解了，那二審、三審的法官即便覺得他有判處死刑的必要性，是不是也無解？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有這個問題。一審的話，如果他應該判死刑，沒有判死刑的話，我想檢察官會請求上訴，或被害人家屬會請求檢察官上訴，我們會審酌，檢察官會審酌那個判決、法官的判決量刑是否妥適。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你的歷審一致決的這個部分，是從一審裡面的法官到三審的法官都要一致嗎？或者不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，那個憲判……"],["黃委員健豪：三級三審繼續維持嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是憲判字8號的判決意旨，是一、二、三審全部都要一致決。"],["黃委員健豪：對啊！我就說你要一致決，所以如果地方法院在第一審的時候，就是有法官覺得他不該判處死刑，那檢察官如果覺得……也因為過去是這樣嘛！過去檢察官如果覺得這個人罪刑重大，但是在地方法院如果沒有判處他死刑，上訴到高院，高院如果能夠判處他死刑，那是不是就有死刑的問題？那如果現在地方法院第一審的時候就沒有判處死刑，檢察官即便上訴了，到二審之後，二審的法官也不能推翻一審的這件事情吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不一定，要看個案。如果一審的話應該一致……那個一致決，是要判死刑才有一致決的問題，如果不是判死刑就沒有一致決的問題。譬如一個最重的判刑，如果一審的法院是判無期徒刑，如果檢察官不服，或被害人的家屬可以請求檢察官上訴，上訴到二審，當然以憲判第8號的判決意旨，二審的話判死刑，要一致決，所以合議庭的3個法官都要認為就是要判死刑，才可以……"],["黃委員健豪：當然，我可以確認，這個東西我想民眾都非常關心，所以才利用這麼多時間來跟你們就教。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個我們大家都很關心，法務部也是非常關心這件事情。"],["黃委員健豪：二審的合議庭法官如果都決定要判處死刑，如果啦，假設某個個案是這樣子，但是一審的時候他沒有被判處死刑，這件事情到底是有還是沒有？他這樣能不能被執行？"],["鄭部長銘謙：實務上會有這種情形啊！二審的話，如果說認為一審的判決並非妥適或者說違法的話，二審可以改判。"],["黃委員健豪：二審可以改判嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以改判。"],["黃委員健豪：所以所謂的歷審一致決就不存在了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：規定是要一致決才能判死刑啊！但是如果一致決他不判死刑的話，我們還是可以上訴啊，二審也是一致決可以判死刑啊！"],["黃委員健豪：所以二審一致決如果判死刑就是可以判死刑，跟一審無關？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是，因為不服一審的才有上訴到二審嘛！二審審核如果一審原來的判決非合法妥適，這樣的話，可以改判為死刑，只要一致決，可以改判為死刑。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長，謝謝。我們後面繼續來討論這個問題，謝謝部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的意思是說，一、二、三審都要一致決……"],["黃委員健豪：對啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：判死刑都要一致決。這是不是在憲判字第8號的解釋文上面引申為這樣的說法，我認為一定會引起很多的討論，我們再看看很多的法律專家……"],["黃委員健豪：所以這個說法並不一定是正確的，並不一定是照它字面上的說法？"],["卓院長榮泰：一定會引起討論啦！"],["黃委員健豪：所以法還會再修嘛！好，謝謝。","接下來要談論一下地方建設。部長，謝謝。","我們也有關注行政院新任陳世凱部長的臉書，我看他前兩天發了一個Reels，講到響應世界無車日，呼籲民眾乘坐公共運輸工具，我截圖有截到他所在的位置在台北捷運的藍線，剛好明年的預算裡面也編列了臺中捷運的藍線。部長出生在臺中，也很清楚知道，今天如果身為一個臺中市民，他想要響應部長的呼籲、響應院長的呼籲，來響應這個世界無車日，但卻只有一條捷運可以搭乘的話，我想就很難去達到這個目標。所以我今天要提到，在臺中市的整體捷運路網裡面，捷運藍線當然是預計明年要來動工，但是我看目前送進來的院版預算（當然，現在在程序委員會被退回），比例非常懸殊，我想請問一下，為什麼比例那麼懸殊？就是明年臺中捷運的藍線，中央政府只編了5億，地方編了88億，這是什麼樣的狀況？為什麼比例那麼懸殊？未來捷運預計要蓋10年，是每年都會照這個比例去做，還是未來中央能夠多支持臺中捷運的建設？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，藍線的部分目前正在細部計畫的過程當中，明年預算的部分，因為現在正在用地取得的部分，用地取得本來就是地方政府會多一些，所以它撥了八十幾億，中央目前是只有5億，但是未來整個中央跟地方分配的補助金額其實已經定下來了，所以這個沒有問題，到時候看工程走到什麼樣的進度，中央該補助的金額絕對會照當時我們大家討論好的那個金額下去補助，這個比例上都沒有問題。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。院長，我接下來要繼續就教臺中捷運的事情，也請部長繼續留著，因為跟捷運有關係。","剛剛彰化的黃委員也有質詢過相關的議題，就是捷運綠線延伸線的問題，我想這卡到所謂的的彰東都市計畫區。之前有提到彰東都市計畫區只要有審定，中捷綠線的綜合規劃就能夠報院做相關的審查。中捷綠線的部分往北是在我的選區大坑，往南就是部長以前的選區烏日到黃秀芳委員的選區彰化等等，這整條要做，一定會卡到彰東都市計畫，所以本席要問的是：有沒有解套的空間？有沒有機會以分段通車的方式來執行？因為北段這邊基本上沒有太大的問題，它就是很簡單的一個二點多公里的延伸線，南段因為涉及都市計畫的問題，彰東都市計畫就如同剛剛前面黃秀芳委員所說的，他從議員當到委員了，這件事情還沒有成案，同樣的問題，捷運綠線延伸從我當議員到我現在當委員了，也是一樣，看到那個建物的預留線留在那邊，但是一直沒有什麼新的進度。所以本席今天要問的是：捷運綠線延伸這件事情會因為彰東都市計畫而卡關嗎？還是有其他的方式可以讓它部分地分階段來通車？過去有沒有其他捷運可以這樣做？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，其實這個部分，因為我知道臺中市這一端，大家希望延伸北屯、大坑的這一條線速度可以快一些，但是因為往南、往彰化那邊還有都市計畫的問題，所以速度可能會緩一些、慢一些。目前因為這條線的延伸正在綜合規劃的過程當中，其實我們可以協助地方政府，大家一起來討論一下，有沒有可能分段來研究？也就是大坑段這部分的綜合規劃是不是我們走快一點，可不可以分段來處理？這個部分我們會來協助地方政府，大家一起來討論看看。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝行政院跟交通部的支持。這兩天大家也看到新聞了，捷運綠線上面有工作人員因為疑似過勞的問題在捷運往生了，也提到臺中捷運目前屬於虧損的狀態。我想捷運虧損，從以前的臺北捷運、以前的高雄捷運，大概都經歷過這段時間，為什麼？就是因為捷運只有一條的時候，它一定會虧損，因為沒有人流嘛！我們希望路網能夠形成。以明年來講，捷運藍線即將動工，臺中的捷運坦白講，全國第二大城，它的進度的確比其他城市慢了非常多，所以我想問一下行政院這邊，到底對於未來我們的捷運，包含橘線連結到中科、連結到臺中車站，還有捷運有一條紅線，是整個崇德路這一條，很重要的一個紅線，因為我知道紅線本來預計10年後才要開始評估，我們有爭取，我想交通部也支持、行政院也支持，希望讓捷運紅線能夠提早開始規劃。我想問一下，這兩個案子─橘線跟紅線有沒有機會加速趕快來執行？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，目前橘線我們正在可行性評估當中，這個部分就由市政府這邊，它速度加快，我們這邊也會來協助，這個沒有問題，我希望可行性研究的部分走快一點。另外一個部分，您所提到的紅線，也就是臺中的崇德一直到豐原的這一段。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["陳部長世凱：這一段確實現在的車流量非常地大，也因為您的爭取跟地方政府的爭取，我們目前針對可行性研究的部分，中央已經會儘量來提供協助跟補助。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝交通部，再次想感謝我們院長跟交通部。臺中的捷運真的非常重要，要不然第二大城一直沒有捷運，這其實是很荒謬的一件事情，所以要拜託中央全力的支持，尤其經費上面跟文書作業上、各種的審查作業，我們都希望能夠簡短一點，可不可以？院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們儘量，依照地方這麼強大的需求，中央在擬定計畫跟地方提出各種評估之後，能夠在施政上跟地方來配合，當然我們願意工程早日地進行跟完工，這個當然是我們的期待。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝院長，謝謝部長。接下來還是地方建設要跟院長反映一下，過去有會勘過，就是國立自然科學博物館的設備更新經費，我想科博館已經成立了快要40年了，比我年紀還大，我也在這邊當過志工，我想科博館是臺中很重要的一個場館，以全國來講也是很重要的場館。在統計上面來講，它是全國第二，到館人數第二名的博物館，但它的經費、它的設備，的確我講個比較可憐一點的事情，我高中的時候，16歲、17歲的時候去當它的志工，我跟院長報告，如果今天你來臺中科博館再參訪，我還可以幫你導覽，因為沒有什麼改變，內容基本上一樣，20年前的事情。更不用講從以前到現在，整個場館基本上沒有太大的更新，當然相關計畫─後續科博館應該也會報、教育部也會報，但是我要講的是，我們今年其實有去會勘，有幾個比較重點的部分，一個是有會議紀錄的，會議紀錄裡面提到，包含太空劇場，太空劇場這個東西在幾十年前科博館剛落成的時候，剛弄起來這個球形的所謂的劇場，那時候很先進，三十幾年前非常先進，那時候還沒有IMAX，那時候的科博館是非常先進的地方，但是如果現在再去同樣的太空劇場去看，它的影像就只有480p而已，我們現在都進到4K階段了，結果它的影像還是這樣子，沒有更新到。","所以我們去會勘的時候，當時會勘紀錄有講要視113年經費結餘情形，或最遲納入114年的預算來調配處理，所以相關預算整個看起來，太空劇場兩千多萬，那麼所謂污水管線，有的、沒有的更新起來，大概四、五千萬的經費，但是這對一年三兆的國家總預算來講，應該不是太龐大的經費，但是我翻遍了所有預算書，就是沒有看到這一條。甚至我們講科博館一年去看太空劇場的人數大概24萬、25萬人，平均票價一張100元，所以基本上你投資這個場館的費用兩千多萬，政府投資下去，很快就能夠從觀光客、從民眾、從各界來的遊覽人次裡面來把它回收。這對政府來講應該不是一個太龐大的經費，更何況這是有會議紀錄，也承諾要幫我們更新的，那為什麼在明年預算裡面沒有看到相關的進度？院長，怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也同意，我們包括自然科學在內，日新月益的進步，我們給國人或是給下一代年輕朋友，應該有一個符合現代臺灣在這個學科上面應該有的一個呈現，那或許是沒有提到地方上的需求，如果我們進一步地來請教委員或是地方政府或是其他的地方，如果在往後的年度可以把它納進去一個計畫的話，那我們應該可以審慎地來評估。"],["黃委員健豪：沒有啦！院長，你不能往後年度啦！這個是有會議紀錄的。我再跟你報告一下，這個是官方會議，不是我們服務處做的，我們服務處做得更細，但是官方提供的會議紀錄裡面已經提了，理論上今年113年度有結餘款就可以拿來用，或者是最遲114年要編進去，但是我就沒看到。所以我今天為什麼要提出來？就是希望院長知道這件事情、了解這件事情，這種官方文書紀錄是不能開玩笑的，不能說我承諾了，那最後沒有編進去，那這樣我們會勘跟會議紀錄不就沒有意義了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：看教育部有沒有什麼計畫。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，非常感謝委員關心科博館所有的這些工程，包括所有展示上的工程改善。確實我們在112年已經有先給科博館先期的一個規劃費，那當時有關污水納管的工程跟太空劇場的這些雷射投影機的計畫，確實當時也說今年我們在汛期過後，如果這個經費上能夠有剩餘的經費，我們會優先來支持。另外也跟委員報告，科博館目前它本身基金的賸餘也有一億三千多萬，所以當時我們也跟焦館長說，假設有急迫性，你就先在現有的基金裡面先處理。至於有關蓋新的一個大樓，總共要大概接近50億……"],["黃委員健豪：沒有，我今天沒有提新大樓、我今天沒有提新大樓，我今天就提純粹會議紀錄上的這兩筆而已。"],["鄭部長英耀：如果其他的這一個就……我跟委員報告，新建的大樓裡面將近要50億，我們已經先給規劃費了，在去年就先給規劃費，那今年考慮在汛期之後，有關污水跟太空劇場這個部分的改善，我們也同意在汛期的經費結餘，我們會優先來補助。那如果在時間上，焦館長他認為應該優先處理，我們也同意他在現有的基金裡面還有一億三千多萬，他可以優先來做處理。"],["黃委員健豪：我想這個不是單一館長或單一場館的問題，我今天會在這邊提，如果今天只是一個場館問題，我們就私下開協調會就好，今天特別提出來跟院長講，就是因為今天這個是官方的會議紀錄，有明確地講了要列入最遲114年教育部的預算裡面，結果卻沒有列入，我是說這樣的承諾、這樣子的會議紀錄不就等於無效了嗎？如果以後都這樣子做的話，立法委員跟行政部門之間要怎麼樣互信？要怎麼樣去溝通？要怎麼樣去協調？今天是白紙黑字寫的，不是空口說白話，講一講就沒事了，今天是有官方會議紀錄的東西。你剛剛提到的場館50億，那個東西我知道，所以我也沒有在這邊提，因為那是長期計畫，今天是簡短的、簡單的，國家預算三兆多裡面，這個攸關國家科學發展的一個場館，也就是兩千多萬，頂多4,000萬，在不同計畫裡面，今天一個設備兩千多萬拿不出來，而且這還是政府承諾要給的，為什麼會沒有呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，剛剛部長所說，自然科學博物館現在有一億多的賸餘款，館長他已經……部長有指示，如果有緊急需要，就這個部分來使用，我想不管是教育部或院裡面，我們都同意，也支持這樣的使用。"],["黃委員健豪：好，院長，謝謝。部長，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：接下來，我想下個月就是國慶日，提到國慶，我想最近大家……常常暑假期間很多委員都有訪美，我也跟院長還有大院來分享，我去訪美之後看到一個景象，就是他們真的家家戶戶，很多企業也好、民間也好，真的是四處都能輕易地見到美國的國旗，這個場景在臺灣相對來講會比較少見一點。為什麼我今天要特別提出來呢？我想因為最近第一個要國慶，第二個，我想兩岸關係也緊張。大家常常說，我們戰力要提升，心戰也很重要，心戰就包含民眾對國家的認同感，所以我們希望國旗除了在國慶日的時候能夠懸掛之外，當然相關的法令紀念日及節日實施辦法也要求，國家紀念日在中央機關、在機關裡面是要懸掛國旗的，但是並沒有鼓勵民間來懸掛國旗。所以我今天特別提出來，就是希望向院長提出建議，是不是能夠獎勵或補助民眾在特定的節日，像國旗日、國慶日等等的來購買，或者你就干脆送大家去掛國旗嘛！院長，你覺得有這個可能嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，雖然我認為國旗最重要是掛在心中，但是能掛在路面上，過幾天你就會看到整個凱道都會有很多的國旗，總統府也開始布置了。"],["黃委員健豪：這是政府機關的。"],["卓院長榮泰：每個人自己對愛國心的表達都會有不同的方式，我們都予以尊重，懸掛國旗當然也是一種，就像我們在奧運的時候，我們雖然看到的是我們的會旗，但唱起國旗歌，大家還是非常澎湃。像我也把國旗放在手表上，這個也是一種表示嘛！你也看得到。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝院長。因為我想這個還是要提一下，最近有個名詞叫「認知作戰」，認知作戰對內也很重要，就是讓民眾認知到我們是中華民國，我們對外要團結一致，所以這是平常就要建立起來的。這也是我在暑假期間訪美的時候特別看到的，他們國家……甚至跟他們的政治人物聊天，他們也講平常就要建立起這樣的文化，不要說只有比賽的時候，或是對外的時候才拿出來，平常大家多數的民眾就應該要有這樣的認知心態，當然這需要政府去幫忙、去從旁鼓勵，所以院長你覺得這件事情有沒有可行性？"],["卓院長榮泰：凡事有助於國人團結、以國家為最終目標的這種團結，任何表現的形式，我都認為是好的，不僅是尊重，如果大家有好的意見，我們都可以共同來討論，也支持。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝院長。接下來剩下沒有多少時間了，我延續上一次的質詢有提到所謂外籍勞工的問題，上次在7月9號的時候我跟院長總質詢也提到，下半年會來討論開放所謂外籍家庭幫傭的議題。院長也提到說，營造更好的帶小孩的環境，讓女性能夠重新參與勞動市場，絕對對生育率會有所幫助。本國目前是有3名6歲以下兒童才能申請家庭幫傭，比較嚴，下半年要來檢討，而部長也提到下半年會一起來檢討。我想已經下半年了，即將到第四季不知道檢討的結果有沒有什麼進度？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長跟委員說明我們之間討論的過程跟現在的想法。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，院長一直非常關心，也一直指示我們要針對您的提議來研究。先跟您報告，我們初步先使用、先進行我們的多元陪伴服務方案的處理，現在我們已經進入正式把多元陪伴服務方案，就是所謂的鐘點移工，甚至已經把具體的時程都訂出來了，大概在今年11月底就可以提供服務了。我們是不是先就這個方案來先做一個試辦之後，我們會在下半年，看這個方案進行的情況如何。因為這個方案其實也有一點類似家庭幫傭這樣的功能，對於顧老跟顧小都可以cover，而且是沒有服務對象資格的設限的。所以是不是可以允許我們看這個試辦方案的成效如何，如果可以的話，也許我們逐步來推動委員所提的建議。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，謝謝。其實這個提出來最主要就是希望……因為現在少子化，今年是龍年，大家看到數據也很驚訝，過往龍年的生育率理論上會反彈一下下，然後再往下跌，但是今年完全沒有看到這個狀況。少子化是一個非常嚴肅的議題，少子化當然有很多原因，其中一個最重要的就是現代雙薪家庭的問題嘛！我今天之所以提出來外籍幫傭要放寬的原因就是，第一個，我國所謂的白領的外籍、高階白領階級，他們是可以直接看薪水來決定放寬他們去請所謂的外籍幫傭，但是本國籍的就像我提到的，你必須要有3個6歲以下的孩童，才能夠去請，我想這個對比落差非常大，正常現在多數的家庭誰家裡會有3個6歲以下的孩童，根本就不可能！那不可能的情況下，這個法規就形同具文嘛！我們當然希望能夠讓雙薪家庭，因為現在基本上都是雙薪家庭，除了上班之外，回來他能夠鬆開他的雙手，被這些鬆綁，他可以多陪他的小孩，甚至陪他上學等等的，所以我們希望這個部分能夠往這個方向去走，好不好？院長、部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，跟委員報告，在部長剛剛所說的多元陪伴服務式的開辦期間，我們也希望勞動部同時持續地進行整套政策的研擬及制定，我希望是同時並進的，不會因為這樣就停止我們對整套政策的想法。"],["黃委員健豪：好，院長，謝謝。","最後剩下1分鐘，我來跟大家討論一下我們社會住宅的問題。先看這個數字，5月31日的時候目標數還是12萬6,869，到8月31日，不知道為什麼，只剩下12萬1,938，有5,000戶不見了，當然細節我們沒辦法跟您討論，因為時間不夠，但是這個數字我想讓院長看到一下，就是為什麼我們社會住宅的這個數字反而降低了。","另外，我想今天稍早其他委員也有關心社宅政策，有提到所謂住宅基金的問題，當時候大家講社會住宅與租金補貼彼此之間不衝突，但是我們細究一下所謂住宅基金的數字，在明年度的預算裡面，社宅在住宅基金裡面只有38億7,000萬左右，大概40億，包租代管50億，租金補貼350億，換句話說，租房子這件事情（包租代管加租金補貼）就占了400億，那你社宅只花了38億，這個數字來講的話，其實對於整個百萬社宅計畫，你等於是拿租屋補貼的計畫來填充啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：再請部長跟委員會後說明，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第20號陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 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院長我想首先一開始也要跟大家關心上禮拜我們想這個司法院判決出來說這個死刑存廢的問題當然這個司法院雖然說死刑何限但是呢他有要求說這個各審期何以庭法官的意見必須一致我想這是這樣在這個判決裡面講說法院組織法"},{"start":42.455,"end":69.082,"text":"沒有明定要何一庭法官一致才可以判處死刑這件事情在違反了正當法律程序原則那我想問一下如果所有的法官在三省裡面所有的法官都要判決一致他才符合正當法律程序原則嗎是這樣嗎依照憲法法庭的解釋出來的文字看出來他有這樣的"},{"start":70.555,"end":72.758,"text":"獨同院長剛所說的其實這部分我也覺得很疑惑"},{"start":86.835,"end":86.995,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":107.006,"end":132.231,"text":"那今天如果相關機關要提出相關修法的話我想請問一下行政院或法務部你們算不算相關機關跟委員報告那個這個一致覺得這個是屬於評議的審判的一個失誤這是規定在法院指示法所以相關機關應該有這個是屬於司法院主管的一個法規所以要有司法院來做一個主政所以到時候這所謂的修法版本不會有你們院版的版本"},{"start":133.981,"end":161.041,"text":"會有行政院的版本他那個施完修法後會匯嫌行政院那行政院會提出版本嗎還是全部都司法院來提那個是主政的是由司法院所以行政院他匯嫌那個行政院再來再送立法院的審議那你法務部的立場是什麼你到時候一定會徵詢你們意見嗎這部分我們會把我們的意見在在在在那個法治作業的話我們會提出我們的意見"},{"start":161.994,"end":178.339,"text":"因為我想這件事情提出來雖然說是這個死刑是核限的但其實本質上它就是實質廢死那北協這邊講啊這東西如果要送到立法院我要講一下你們是民選政府的官員我們是民意代表我們是投票投出來的"},{"start":179.259,"end":202.805,"text":"這麽多民眾去反對這件事情我真的不知道到時候受盡立法院裡面在委會審查也好在大院討論也好我們立法委員要怎麽去審這個法案不知道部長或院長你有什麽樣的想法可以教我們我們要怎麽樣去立這個法我們要怎麽樣把法律修到滿足大法官的這個判決才有辦法做到這個判決等於凌駕立法院等於凌駕行政院的版本"},{"start":204.663,"end":223.071,"text":"報告委員我並不認為現在等於就是把它說成是實質廢死用四個字來形容它原則上它是有條件的核限我們在這個有條件核限的框架底下把一些程序讓它完備完備程序的目的在於不要造成冤枉的判決"},{"start":223.951,"end":223.991,"text":"主席"},{"start":240.62,"end":261.206,"text":"跟社會能夠非常的接受再來就是我們可以改變一下居禁的方式用終身居禁來取代無期徒刑那樣的這條方式這個是未來司法跟行政院當中乃至於跟立法院大院當中我們互相可以討論的很多的重點所以原則上我不認為這就是實質廢棄我們要把條件當上更合理化我就看看這兩年"},{"start":267.728,"end":292.274,"text":"到底要怎麼樣溝通才能讓民眾接受這樣子要立審一致決的這個版本另外我要提醒一件事情如果立審一致決才能夠符合所謂的這個正當法律程序原則的話那是不是其他的行者其他的法律相關的法律不是只有死刑那竊盜呢強盜呢這些東西是不是立審都要一致他才符合正當法律程序原則"},{"start":293.325,"end":320.778,"text":"這個是所謂委員就提的這個是屬於那個私體面的一個問題那個正當法律程序是要在刑訴訴訟法做一個規範所以對於強盜或其他其他的刑事罪者是不是也都要立審都要一致他才能夠符合如果今天那個判處死刑最那個最嚴重的那個罪行如果說法院要判處死刑的話那根據憲法法庭憲判第8號的一個解釋的一個"},{"start":321.578,"end":321.978,"text":"法院的三級三審視"},{"start":340.54,"end":366.019,"text":"如果今天地方法院一審裡面光是這個一審裡面法官就覺得不需要的時候那他上訴到後面二審三審之後那你等於剝奪了二審三審的權利啦過去本來說二審三審可能跟一審有不一樣的結果那如果今天一審裡面就已經有說有法官不認為他被判處死刑是合理的如果有法官居然不該被判處死刑那所以後面的二審三審等於也被限制的相關權利了嘛"},{"start":368.532,"end":391.27,"text":"這部份檢察官受到判決﹖會斟酌來做一個上訴可是部長我請教一下專業問題如果今天一審有法官說認為這個罪犯他不能判處死刑所以一審的法官已經有這樣子的見解了那二審三審的法官他即便覺得他有判處死刑的必要性是不是也無解"},{"start":392.384,"end":397.427,"text":"所以立審一致決的這個部分是從一審裡面的法官到三審的法官都一致嗎?還是不是?三審繼續維持嗎?"},{"start":419.802,"end":425.572,"text":"現判48號的一個判決意思是一二三審全部都要一致決對啊我就說要一致決"},{"start":426.332,"end":452.945,"text":"所以如果在地方法院在第一審的時候他就已經判決都不認我就是他已經沒有有法官決定他不該判處死刑那到了檢察官如果覺得因為過去是這樣嘛過去檢察官如果覺得這個人罪行重大但是在地方法院如果沒有判處他死刑所以上訴到這高院高院如果能夠判處他死刑那是不是就有這個死刑的問題那如果現在地方法院第一審的時候就沒有判處死刑了"},{"start":454.119,"end":479.812,"text":"檢察官即便上訴了到二審之後二審的法官也不能推翻一審這件事情吧這個不一定要看個案他那個做一審的話應該一致那個一致決是要判死刑才有一致決的一個問題如果不是判死刑就沒有一致決的一個問題就譬如說一個最終的一個犯刑如果說一審的法院是判無期徒刑如果說檢察不服或被害人的家屬或被害家屬會請求前來上訴那個上訴到二審"},{"start":480.632,"end":510.098,"text":"那當然以現判第80號的一個判決的意思當然二審的話要判死還要一致決所以何立廷的三個法官都要都要都要認為就是要判死部長這個當然我可以確認這個東西我想民眾都非常關心啊對他利用這麼多時間來跟你們就教我怕教徒很關心那個法務部也是非常關心這件事情二審如果說要三個二審的何立廷法官如果都決定要判處死刑如果啦假設某個個案是這樣子"},{"start":511.189,"end":532.099,"text":"但是一審的時候他沒有被判處執行那這件事情到底是有還是沒有他有沒有能不能被執行事務三會有這種情形啊那個二審的話如果說認為一審的判決是並未妥適或違法的話二審可以改判二審可以改判嗎可以改判所以他所謂的立審一次決就不存在了嗎"},{"start":536.521,"end":558.246,"text":"這個都要規定是要一字決才能判死刑啊但是如果說一字決他不判死刑的話我們還是可以上訴啊這個二審也是可以做到一字決可以判死刑啊所以二審一字決如果判死刑就是可以判死刑跟一審無關不是因為不服一審的才有上訴到二審嘛二審審核如果一審的原來的判決是不非合法妥適"},{"start":559.366,"end":585.572,"text":"他這樣的話可以改判為死刑只要一字決可以改判為死刑好 部長謝謝那我們後面繼續來討論這個問題謝謝部長我原本的意思是說一二三審都要一字決對啊判時都要一字決那這個說法是不是在判事第8號這個解釋文上面引申為這樣的說法我認為一定會引起很多的討論的那我們再看看很多的法律專家所以這個說法並不一定是正確並不一定是照他自立這樣的說法一定會引起討論的一定會修法還會再修吧好 謝謝"},{"start":588.732,"end":590.346,"text":"那接下來談論一下地方建設阿部長謝謝"},{"start":592.418,"end":618.648,"text":"我想我們也有關注我們行政院這個新任部長陳志凱部長的臉書我看到他前兩天發了一個這個REALS講到說這個響應世界無車日呼籲民眾剛剛有個截圖我有截到呼籲民眾來乘坐公共運輸那剛好他所在的位置在台北捷運的藍線那剛好我想明年的預算裡面也編列了台中捷運的藍線我想部長也出生在台中也很清楚知道"},{"start":619.548,"end":647.648,"text":"今天如果身為一個臺中市民他想要響應這個部長的呼籲響應我們院長的呼籲來響應這個世界無車日但卻只有一條捷運可以搭乘的話那我想這個就很難去達到這個目標所以今天提到說我想關到下一頁臺中市的整體捷運路網裡面先講這個捷運藍線當然預計明年要來動工但是我看目前送進來的這個院板的預算那當然現在程序委員會被退回但是目前的版本"},{"start":648.68,"end":648.74,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":673.695,"end":699.47,"text":"報告委員藍線的部分目前正在細部計畫的過程當中明年的預算的部分因為現在正在用地取得的部分用地取得本來就是地方政府會多一些所以它撥了八十幾億中央目前是只有五億但是未來整個中央跟地方分配的補助金額其實已經定下來了所以這個沒有問題到時候看工程走到什麼樣的進度中央該補助的金額絕對會到"},{"start":700.63,"end":726.226,"text":"照當時我們大家討論好的那個金額下去補助這個比例上都沒有問題好 謝謝再來院長我要就叫一樣台中捷運我想部長繼續留著跟這個捷運有關係剛剛上面這個章化的黃議員也有質詢過相關的議題就捷運綠線延伸線的問題我想這卡到所謂的章東都市計劃區但我想這個之前有提到說章東都市計劃區只要有審定那終結綠線的綜合規劃就能夠抱怨來做相關的審查"},{"start":729.687,"end":729.787,"text":"王北﹑吳瑞﹑張嬅﹑"},{"start":750.436,"end":772.009,"text":"是分段的這個分段通則的方式來執行因為我想北段這邊基本上沒有太大問題他就是很簡單的一個2點多公里的延伸線南段因為涉及到所謂都市計劃的問題那如果都市計劃因為山東都市計劃就如同剛剛前面黃秀芳議員黃秀芳委員所說的他從議員當到委員了這次自己還沒有成案"},{"start":772.609,"end":793.579,"text":"同樣的問題捷運綠線延伸從我當議員到我現在當委員也是一樣看到那個建物的預留線留在那邊但是一直沒有什麼新的進度所以本席今天要問的是說捷運綠線延伸這件事情會因為張東都是計畫而卡關嗎還是有其他的方式可以讓他部分的分階段來通車過去有沒有其他的捷運可以這樣做"},{"start":797.205,"end":823.599,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個部分因為我知道台中市這邊這一端大家希望說這個延伸北屯大坑的這一條線速度可以快一些但是因為往南往彰化那邊還有都市計畫的問題所以速度可能會緩一些慢一些目前因為這條線的延伸正在綜合規劃的過程當中其實我們可以協助地方政府大家一起來討論一下有沒有可能分段來研究"},{"start":824.059,"end":825.339,"text":"捷運綠線工作人員因疑似過勞問題在捷運往生"},{"start":846.964,"end":870.038,"text":"提到台中捷運目前虧損的狀態,從以前的台北捷運、以前的高雄捷運經歷過這段時間,因為捷運一跳的時候一定會虧損,因為沒有人流。希望入網能夠形成。明年來講,捷運藍線即將動工,台中的捷運坦白講,全國第二大城的進度的確比其他城市慢了非常多。"},{"start":870.638,"end":899.672,"text":"所以我想問一下我們這個行政院這邊到底對於未來我們捷運包含說局線連結到中科連結到台中車站還有捷運有一條紅線整個崇德路這一條很重要的紅線因為我知道紅線目前本來預計10年後才要開始評估那我們也有爭取我想交通部也支持行政院也支持希望讓這個捷運紅線能夠提早開始規劃我想問一下這兩個案子局線跟紅線有沒有機會加速的來趕快來執行"},{"start":902.661,"end":930.673,"text":"跟委員報告目前局限我們正在可行性評估當中那這個部分就由市政府這邊他速度加快我們這邊也會來協助這個沒有問題我希望可行性研究的部分走快一點那另外一個部分您所提到的紅線也就是臺中的崇德一直到豐原的這一段那這一段確實現在的車流量非常的大那也因為您的爭取跟地方政府的爭取我們目前針對可行性研究的部分中央已經會盡量來提供協助跟補助"},{"start":931.363,"end":950.612,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝我們交通部的再次想感謝我們院長跟交通部這個臺中捷運真的非常重要要不然其實第二大城一直沒有捷運這些事情其實是很荒謬的事情所以要拜託這個中央要全力的支持因為經費上面跟文書作業上各種的審查作業我們都希望能夠減短一點可以不可以"},{"start":952.739,"end":974.128,"text":"院長我們盡量依照地方這麼強大的需求那中央在離定計畫跟地方提出各種評估之後能夠在施政上跟地方來配合當然我們願意工程早日的進行跟完工這個當然是我們的期待好 院長謝謝那接下來還是地方先生要跟院長反映一下這過去有會刊 這個部長謝謝"},{"start":977.046,"end":1000.334,"text":"這過去有會堪過就是我們國立自然科學博物館的設備的更新經費我講科博館這個已經成立了快要40年了比我年紀還大我也在這邊當過志工我講科博館是臺中的很重要的一個場館也是全國來講很重要場館在統計上面來講它是全國第2觀光人數大館人數第2名的這個博物館但它的經費它的這個設備的確我講個這個比較可憐一點的事情"},{"start":1005.416,"end":1019.722,"text":"我高中的時候16歲17歲的時候去當他的志工我跟院長報告如果今天你來台中科普館再參訪我還可以辦導覽因為沒有什麼改變那種基本上一樣20年前的事情"},{"start":1020.52,"end":1038.916,"text":"會議記錄"},{"start":1039.485,"end":1061.526,"text":"包含說這個太空劇場太空劇場這個東西在幾十年前科普館剛落成的時候剛弄起來這個球形的所謂的這個劇場哇那時候很先進啊三十幾年前非常先進那時候還沒有IMAX那時候的科普館是非常先進的地方但是如果現在再去同樣的這個所謂太空劇場去看它的這個影像"},{"start":1062.552,"end":1072.222,"text":"這就有480P而已啊但我們現在進到4K階段了結果他的影像還是這樣子沒有更新到所以那時候我們去會刊的時候當時這個會刊記錄有講說要試113年經費結餘情形或最遲納入114年的預算來調配處理"},{"start":1080.811,"end":1080.991,"text":"黃健豪議員"},{"start":1096.818,"end":1096.918,"text":"黃健豪議員"},{"start":1127.138,"end":1154.22,"text":"怎麼辦我也同意我們包括自然科學在內日新月異的進步我們給國人或是給下一代年輕朋友應該有一個符合現代臺灣在這個學科上面應該有的一個呈現那或許是沒有提到地方計畫上的需求那如果我們進一步的來請教委員或是地方政府或是其他的地方如果在往後的年度可以把它納進去一個計畫的話那我們應該可以審慎的來評估"},{"start":1156.704,"end":1175.063,"text":"沒有啦院長你不能往後年度啦這個是會議紀錄我再給你報告一下這個是官方會議回來不是我服務處做的喔我們服務處做的更細但是官方提供的會議紀錄裡面已經提了理論上今年113年度有結餘款就可以拿來用或是最遲114年要編進去但是我就沒看到"},{"start":1175.623,"end":1176.124,"text":"教育部有沒有什麼計畫?"},{"start":1188.582,"end":1208.254,"text":"跟委員報告,非常感謝委員關心這個科博館的一些這個所有的這些的工程包括所有的展示上的一個工程的改善確實我們在112年已經有先給科博館有一個先期的一個規劃會"},{"start":1209.435,"end":1221.811,"text":"那當時也有關這個污水納管的工程跟太空劇場的這些雷射投影機的一個計畫確實當時也說在今年我們在汛期過後如果這個經費上能夠這個"},{"start":1225.575,"end":1251.372,"text":"有剩餘的經費我們會優先來支持另外也跟委員報告科博館目前它本身這個基金的剩餘也有1億3千多萬所以當時我們也跟交館長說假設有急迫性你就先在現有的基金裡面先處理至於這一個有關蓋新的大樓總共要大概我今天沒有人提到新大樓"},{"start":1252.353,"end":1270.015,"text":"我今天沒有提新大樓我今天就提純粹會議紀錄上的這兩筆而已我跟委員報告的就是說蓋新建的大樓裡邊將近要50億我們已經先給規劃會了在去年就先給規劃會那今年在考慮在訓期之後我們也會"},{"start":1271.256,"end":1293.406,"text":"這一個有關污水跟太空機場的這個部分的一個改善我們也同意在信息的經費節餘我們會優先來補助那如果在時間上交館長他認為應該優先處理我們也同意他這一個在現有的一個基金裡邊有還有一億三千多萬他可以優先來做處理"},{"start":1293.766,"end":1316.093,"text":"我想這個不是單一館長或單一場館的問題啦我今天會在這邊提如果今天只是一個場館問題我們就私下寫一條回就好今天特別提出來跟院長講就是因為今天這個是官方的會議紀錄有講了明確的講了要列入最遲114年教育部的預算裡面"},{"start":1317.382,"end":1329.313,"text":"結果卻沒有列入那我是說這樣的承諾這樣子會議記錄不就等於無效了嗎那如果以後都這樣子做的話那立法委員跟行政部門之間要怎麼樣互信要怎麼樣去溝通要怎麼樣去協調"},{"start":1330.745,"end":1357.437,"text":"今天是白紙黑字寫的,不是空口說白話大家好好好機關上講一講就沒事了今天是有官方會議紀錄的東西那如果今天剛剛你提到的這個什麼場館50億那個東西我知道所以我也沒在這邊提因為那是長期計畫今天是簡短的、簡單的國家預算三兆多裡面這個攸關國家科學發展一個場館也就是兩千多萬頂多四千萬不同計畫裡面今天一個設備兩千多萬拿不出來"},{"start":1358.337,"end":1358.437,"text":"理事長謝謝"},{"start":1383.502,"end":1404.216,"text":"接下來我想下個月是國慶日我想提到國慶最近大家常常暑假期間很多委員都訪美我也跟院長和大院來分享在訪美之後看到一個景象就是他們家家戶戶很多企業也好民間也好真的四處都會輕易的見到他們美國的國旗這個場景在台灣相對來講會比較少見一點"},{"start":1410.14,"end":1410.18,"text":"黃健豪議員"},{"start":1431.747,"end":1455.446,"text":"當然相關的這個法令有要求這個紀念日節日實施辦法國家紀念日是要來在中央機關在機關裡面來懸掛國旗但是並沒有去鼓勵民間來懸掛國旗所以我今天特別提出來是希望說向院長提出建議是不是能夠獎勵或補助民眾在特定的節日或是什麼國旗日或國慶日等等的來購買或者你就乾脆送大家去掛國旗"},{"start":1456.892,"end":1482.49,"text":"院長你覺得這有可能嗎?謝謝委員雖然我認為國旗重要是掛在心中啦但是能夠掛在路面上過幾天你就會看到整個凱道都會有很多的國旗總統府也開始布置了每個人讓自己對愛國心的表達會有不同的方式我們都予以尊重那懸掛國旗當然也是一種就像我們在奧運的時候我們雖然看到的是我們的會旗但是唱起國旗歌大家還是非常澎湃"},{"start":1482.79,"end":1482.91,"text":"認知作戰"},{"start":1513.411,"end":1515.052,"text":"凡事有助於國人團結﹐以國家為最終目標的這種團結﹐任何的表現的形式﹐我都認為是好的"},{"start":1534.511,"end":1544.945,"text":"不僅是尊重 如果大家有好的意見 我們都可以共同來討論也支持好 院長謝謝 那接下來喔 現在沒有多少時間了我延續上一次的這個質詢 有提到所謂外籍勞工的問題"},{"start":1546.701,"end":1576.461,"text":"在上次7月9號的時候我們跟院長總質詢的時候也提到下半年會來討論開放所謂外籍家庭幫傭的議題那院長也提到說營造更好的帶小孩的環境讓女性能夠重新參與勞動市場絕對是對生育率有所幫助那所以本國目前是這個三名60歲以下才能申請這個家庭幫傭比較嚴下半年要來檢討那這個部長也提到下半年一起要來檢討那我想已經下半年了已經即將第四季啦"},{"start":1581.766,"end":1602.165,"text":"請部長跟委員說明我們之間討論的過程跟現在的想法跟委員報告 院長一直非常關心然後也一直指示我們要針對您的這個提議要來研究 那麼先跟您報告我們初步先使用 我們先進行我們的多元陪伴服務方案的處理"},{"start":1603.046,"end":1617.826,"text":"現在我們已經進入這個正式的把多元陪伴服務方案就是所謂的終點移工我們甚至已經把這個具體的那個時程都訂出來了大概在今年11月底我們就可以提供服務了"},{"start":1618.467,"end":1643.969,"text":"那我們是不是先就這個方案來先做一個示範之後呢我們會在下半年我們看這個方案進行的情況如何因為其實這個方案其實也有點類似可以類似就是像家庭幫用這樣的功能啦對於顧老跟顧小都可以cover而且是沒有這個服務對象的這個資格的設限的沒有很所以"},{"start":1645.77,"end":1672.47,"text":"是不是可以允許我們把這個事發方案我們看成效如何如果可以的話也許我們逐步來推動委員所提的建議這樣子部長謝謝因為其實這個提出來最主要就是希望因為今天少子化我想今年是農年大家看到數據也很驚訝就是說過往少子化理論上不是少子化農年的生育率理論上會退反一下下再往下跌但是今年完全沒有看到這狀況所以這個"},{"start":1674.671,"end":1700.279,"text":"少子化是一個非常嚴肅的議題那少子化當然很多原因那其中一個最重要的就是現代的雙薪家庭的問題嘛我今天之所以提出來這個外籍幫傭放寬的原因就第一個我國的這個所謂的白領的外籍這個這些這個高階白領階級他們是可以直接看薪水來決定放寬他們去請這個所謂外籍的幫傭但是本國籍的是要就像我提到的你必須要有"},{"start":1700.999,"end":1701.099,"text":"黃健豪"},{"start":1719.966,"end":1733.049,"text":"他除了上班之外回來他能夠鬆開他的雙手他可以不用去背這些書房他可以多背他的小孩甚至陪他上學等等的所以我們才希望說這個方向能夠往這邊去走好不好 院長跟部長"},{"start":1734.497,"end":1736.518,"text":"最後剩下一分鐘我來跟大家討論一下我們社會主宰的問題"},{"start":1757.506,"end":1783.961,"text":"先看這個數字啊5月31號的時候目標還是12萬6869到8月31不知道為什麼只剩下12萬1938有5000會不見當然細節我們沒辦法跟討論了因為時間不夠但是這個數字我想讓院長看到一下就為什麼我們的社會住宅的這個數字降低反而降低了那另外我想今天稍早其他委員有關心社宅政策有提到所謂住宅基金的問題那當時候大家講說這個"},{"start":1787.374,"end":1813.156,"text":"社會住宅跟租金補貼彼此之間不衝突但是我們細究一下所謂住宅基金的數字在明年度的預算裡面社宅在住宅基金裡面只有38億7千萬左右大概40億包租代管50億租金補貼350億換句話說租房這件事情包租代管加租金補貼就佔了400億那你社宅只花了38億"},{"start":1814.744,"end":1814.924,"text":"黃健豪議員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:31:35 - 17:02:08","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154883"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:15:29","end_time":"2024-09-24T16:31:20+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154882","gazette":{"lineno":556,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（16時16分）主席、大家好，我們請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：許委員好。"],["許委員智傑：院長好。我們要推動高雄AI產業鏈，打造AI首都TECH高雄，這個「TECH」包括Technology、Eeconomy、Charming、Happy，亦即科技、經濟、魅力、歡喜的高雄。我們其實很多數位韌性需要再加強，比如說數位港口。高雄有海港有空港，但是現在數位港還沒有，所以我們希望是不是有機會在高雄打造一個數位港口。他山之石可以攻錯，新加坡這個案例我覺得還滿不錯的，就是吸引AI廠商建立金融特區跟舉辦國際會議。加強AI投資，我們現在有一些新創的預算，但是是不是可以讓地方政府充分的利用，我想我們整個中央的團隊可以再做一個思考。然後，亞洲資訊管理中心，這個也是高雄的機會，包括MICE國際會議等等，我們一樣一樣希望可以借鏡新加坡來增加我們高雄的AI能量。","請院長先休息，我們請數發部部長。院長，你先休息，你站得太累了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不要緊。"],["許委員智傑：不要緊嗎？"],["主席：請數發部。"],["許委員智傑：新加坡投資10億新幣（大概250億臺幣）在AI的發展，然後他們的經發局也網羅全球的人才，包括Google在新加坡本來有三座資料中心，今年（2024年）已經設了第四座，然後在臺灣，Google在彰化為主有資料中心，微軟主要在桃園，現在有一所叫做亞馬遜打算投資臺灣，是不是有機會到高雄，這個我們也希望中央可以重視。另外，新加坡它其實很會吸收人才，就是從科技准證吸引國際人才等等，還有一些家庭辦公室等等，有很多滿好的措施。我們想先請教一下，就是海底電纜海纜霸權，這是一個最基本的條件，新加坡上岸的大概有400 Trillion（T）的流量，香港大概不到200T的流量。臺灣大概有109T左右的流量，大部分都從北部的海纜站上來，北部有三個海纜站，從南部枋山上來的流量大概不到1T。我希望是不是有機會在高雄設立數位港口，也就是說讓全球的資訊、資料、大數據可以在高雄上岸，這個部分數發部是不是有規劃？"],["林次長宜敬：是。跟委員報告，本部已經在9月2號邀請相關部會，包含國科會、交通部航港局、港務公司以及高雄市政府召開座談會，就是要討論在高雄海纜的上岸地點，這部分我們正在討論，我們會積極的進行這件事情。"],["許委員智傑：什麼時候可以完成這個海纜站？"],["林次長宜敬：這個還在研商，報告委員，現在還沒有明確的日期。"],["許委員智傑：沒有估計一個時間嗎？現在都在跟時間賽跑。"],["林次長宜敬：是，目前依我們了解的狀況，因為這個有很多的部會必須一起合作、一起負責，包含高雄市政府，所以對這個事情我們可能雙方都要再加把勁。"],["許委員智傑：我可以跟院長報告，也希望院長可以幫忙追進度啦！就是高雄在興達電廠那邊有之前運煤的通道，現在那個地方是一個很好的設置海底電纜站的地方，其實台電跟港務公司，我們幾乎都溝通過，也跟數發部溝通過，希望對這個部分數發部可以儘速進行，也就是說，你把一個海纜登陸站先設定好，將來其他海纜公司會陸續上來，包括中華電信，包括其他民間業者的海纜公司都讓它上來，我也希望數發部就是用一個公平的原則，在以前主要上來的海纜站幾乎都是中華電信，但是其實我們希望有多個不同的進來，這樣子對我們的數位韌性，對於我們的國安、資安，會有比較多一層的選擇跟保障，所以這個部分希望數發部對這個海纜登陸站可以儘速完成。"],["林次長宜敬：是，跟委員報告，數發部已經預定在10月2號會邀集7家國際海纜業者以及高雄市政府再進一步開會，儘快加速這件事情。"],["許委員智傑：還有就是數發部100億的AI軟體應用的資金，這個主要是for我們國內的企業或是可以for地方政府還是可以for國外的企業？"],["林次長宜敬：我們這個100億的金額主要是我們跟國發會匡列了100億臺幣，那將會在……"],["許委員智傑：主要的對象？"],["林次長宜敬：對象主要是國內跟AI相關的科技公司，那是排除掉上市上櫃公司，主要是新創企業已經A輪的企業。"],["許委員智傑：好，跟院長報告，你可以看到新加坡這裡什麼叫做科技准證，就是他們去世界網羅人才，臺灣人其實真的很強，有臺灣人做了Living Optics AI相機，其實你看包括輝達的黃仁勳是臺灣人，包括AMD的蘇姿丰是臺灣人，包括美超微的梁見後也是臺灣人，還包括這一家，這一家其實是臺灣人新創，這個是用那個顏色可以做AI的辨識，比人眼可能要強一百倍，其實他是人才，但是他在英國，然後被新加坡吸引去了。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["許委員智傑：所以我們這100億的資金不管夠或不夠或者是要再提高，就是說我們今天吸收的人才不只是國內的人才，包括對國外的人才我們有機會吸收的話，我希望我們可以把它變成一個數位經濟，在全世界其實新加坡走很前面，我看了他的那個片子，其實我覺得還蠻感動的，人家真的走得很前面。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["許委員智傑：當然我們不是都要學他們，但是好的部分我們可以學習嘛！所以要吸收國際人才，你看像我們這個臺灣人被新加坡吸收過去，我們也覺得很可惜，所以對這個部分可能數位發展部跟國發會，甚至跟經濟部，我們是不是可以在國內有一個類似新加坡的經濟發展局？他們的經濟發展局就跟特務一樣，很厲害，全世界各地的展覽他們都去看，看一看以後覺得有什麼好的展覽，他就去拜訪，拜訪以後覺得這個將來有機會，就把他找進來，在找進來以後，這個是一個很強的企業，它還可以增加就業機會，可以增加國內投資，所以從這個角度，事實上，我們國內是不是請行政團隊可以組一個類似這樣子的團隊去全世界征服……不是征服，而是去找這樣優秀的人才到國內來，我是覺得這個非常的重要。"],["林次長宜敬：是，我完全同意委員的看法，發展AI高科技產業最重要的是人才，然後最優秀的人才都希望居住在一個美麗迷人而且宜居的城市，然後……"],["許委員智傑：沒關係，你講重點就好。"],["林次長宜敬：對，高雄是一個美麗迷人而且宜居的城市，所以我們認為高雄是發展AI一個很好的地點，那我們對這個部分希望就是中央跟地方政府一起努力。"],["許委員智傑：對，我的意思是說，中央需要這樣一個專門去找人才的單位，不管是我們的經濟部也好，不管是我們的國發會也好，不管是我們的數發部也好，就是說要有這樣一個方向去找，甚至這個100億的資金是否for國內的企業，有沒有for地方政府？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，因為國發基金目前不會說是直接拿給地方政府，我們主要是要投資。"],["許委員智傑：主要是給企業。"],["林次長宜敬：而且是投資，並不是補助。"],["許委員智傑：如果地方政府要發展這一方面的專業，但是這個地方政府它不能直接跟我們數發部、跟國發會申請嘛，如果它是一個好的企業，地方政府也認為這是一個好的方向，如果它跟地方政府簽MOU，有沒有可能加分或加錢？主要是讓這個在地方上可以發展得更好，這樣子錢可以用嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告一下，國發基金主要是依據產創條例，只要符合上面的規定，個別企業也可以來申請我們的資金。"],["許委員智傑：對，所以我就說，其實我們在評分的時候，如果加上它跟地方政府合作可以簽MOU，可以增加它被我們核准的機會的話，事實上，地方政府它要發展會有角色，否則你就看不到地方政府的角色，我們可以看到其實地方政府現在也很努力在招商，我們可以看到輝達已經跟鴻海在我們高雄設Taipei 1，雖然名字叫Taipei 1，但是設在高雄，包括AMD研發中心也要進駐高雄，所以我要再一次呼籲，就是針對亞馬遜，中央如果有那個角度，就是臺北當臺灣政治的首都，高雄當臺灣AI的首都，現在高雄正好有這個條件，不管是這些科技大廠進駐，不管是我剛剛提到海纜站，我們希望數發部可以儘快，然後跟NCC能夠儘快把全世界……你可以看新加坡那個網路，新加坡的海底電纜多強啊！全世界海底電纜現在第一強的大概就是新加坡，而我們臺灣，其實這是我們一個學習的方向，所以從興達電廠這裡來看，我們的電也比其他地方好，我們這邊大廠也來了，甚至高雄也不缺水，整體上高雄的環境都很好，包括這一陣子其實陳其邁市長也招商這麼多好的大廠來，所以其實在AI首都的角色，我希望不只是我們高雄人自己在喊爽的啦！而是說從各個條件看起來，高雄的確有這個機會變成全臺灣AI最強的地方，所以中央各部會是不是可以一起來做這樣的思考？有什麼資源、有什麼協助，然後跟地方政府配合，我們一起來打造一個全世界很強的AI城市，這個部分院長是不是可以認同？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。報告委員，包括陳市長，他一直是非常努力在招商、引資、留才的地方首長，高雄找一個適當的地點讓海纜上岸，所以包括委員剛剛所提的興達港在內，我們還有幾個地方在評估，10月2號我們會邀集7家廠商，再進一步來研商如何把高雄打造成一個更符合現在所謂南部S廊帶，能夠以高雄為中心向上發展的一個基地，這個部分是符合國家重大建設的。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝院長。我的意思是說，AI其實在高雄，應該就是中央部會能夠幫忙強化的，你可以看到AI三力，就是人力、算力、應用力，我們的電力、水力是另外它必須要的東西，就是說海纜站上來，其實它需要的就是包括我們的超級電腦、我們的算力中心，這些其實也很耗電，其實我們高雄的條件比臺北、北部的條件更適合很多，所以現在就是集各方面的條件，將來我們是希望我們在這三力上面能夠再加強，首先就是海纜站上來，再來就是資料中心跟超級電腦，超級電腦現在也進來了，將來整個AI的應用能夠在高雄發光發熱，把高雄的經驗可以推到全臺灣，甚至可以跟全世界結合，所以剛才這個方向希望數發部、國發會以及經濟部可以幫忙來協助。","最後一個就是亞洲資產管理中心，還有金融特區跟家族辦公室。事實上我也看到新加坡也做得還不錯，所以這個部分是不是有機會在高雄設置，甚至就是境外銀行等等？高雄市在這部分是個處女地，但是你著眼未來整個AI的開發，這一部分是不是高雄一個非常重要的方向？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，跟委員報告一下，我們在這次推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心的16項計畫中，有一項就是希望高雄能夠在過去既有的基礎上建置一個資產管理專區或一個聚落、一個園區。"],["許委員智傑：所以現在這個方向沒有問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們已經在規劃更細部的作法，除了延續過去既有的兩、三年的討論基礎以外，我們最近還會加入有關私人銀行、OBU，還有其他如家族辦公室的機能在裡面。"],["許委員智傑：這是以高雄為主？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["許委員智傑：感謝！這個非常地重要。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們建議以亞灣作為一個基地。"],["許委員智傑：所以這是包括AI的算力、人力、應用力整個軟體發展的資源，包括亞洲資產管理中心，還有一個就是大型的會議，如果各部會有這些大型的會議，也希望想到高雄，就如同我們現在的演唱會經濟辦得很好，這些大型會議MICE，我已經沒有時間細講，但是這是一個大的方向，也希望所有中央部會有這個活動時想到高雄，到高雄來辦，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第19位黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 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院長你先休息我們請那個抒發部抒發部長院長你先休息你站得太痛嗎"},{"start":113.476,"end":116.318,"text":"我想新加坡這個投資10億的新幣大概250億的台幣在AI的發展然後他們經發局也網羅全球的人才"},{"start":138.135,"end":160.09,"text":"那包括就是在Google在新加坡本來有3座資料中心現在已經2024今年設了第4座然後在台灣Google在我們彰化為主有資料中心微軟主要在桃園現在有一所叫做亞馬遜那他打算投資高雄"},{"start":160.86,"end":187.46,"text":"打算投資臺灣是不是有機會到高雄這個我們也希望說中央可以重視另外新加坡其實他很會吸收人才就是從科技準證吸引國際人才等等還有一些家庭辦公室等等有很多蠻好的措施我們想先請教一下就是海底電纜海纜霸權這個是一個最基本的條件"},{"start":188.5,"end":214.296,"text":"新加坡上岸的大概有400垂簾的流量香港大概不到200的流量台灣大概有109左右的流量那大部分都從北部的海南站上來北部有三個海南站那南部的仿山呢大概上來的流量大概不到一梯啦那我是希望說在高雄是不是有機會設立這個數位港口"},{"start":216.54,"end":244.69,"text":"也就是說讓全球的資訊、資料、大數據可以在高雄上岸這個部分蘇發部是不是有規劃是跟委員報告本部已經在9月2號邀請相關部會包含國科會、交通部、航港局、港務公司以及高雄市政府召開座談會討論就是要將高雄海嵐的上岸地點那我們這個正在討論那我們會積極地進行這件事情"},{"start":245.328,"end":272.709,"text":"那什麼時候可以完成這個海欄站這個還在研商那報告委員現在還沒有明確的日期估計的時間沒有按上現在都在跟時間賽跑是那個目前我們瞭解的狀況因為這個有很多的部會必須一起合作一起負責包含那個高雄市政府所以我們這個事情我們可能雙方都要再加把勁"},{"start":273.524,"end":302.651,"text":"現在跟院長報告希望說院長可以幫忙追進度就是我們現在高雄可能在興達電廠那邊有之前運煤的那個通道現在那個地方是一個很好的設置海底電纜站的地方那我們其實就是大概台電跟港務公司我們幾乎都溝通過跟速發部溝通過希望說這個部分速發部可以儘速進行也就是說你一個海纜登陸站先設定好"},{"start":303.811,"end":326.848,"text":"將來其他海南公司都會陸續上來包括中華電信包括其他民間業者海南公司都讓他上來我希望說速發部就是用一個公平的原則以前主要上來的海南站幾乎都是中華電信但是其實我們希望說有多個不同的進來這樣子對我們的數位韌性對於我們的國安治安"},{"start":327.668,"end":332.691,"text":"蘇發部預定10月2日邀請7家國際海欄業者以及高雄市政府進一步開會,盡快加速這件事情還有蘇發部的100億的AI軟體"},{"start":353.77,"end":361.096,"text":"應用的資金主要是for我們國內的企業還是可以for地方政府還是可以for國外的企業"},{"start":362.234,"end":362.875,"text":"你可以看到新加坡他這裡"},{"start":389.133,"end":413.63,"text":"什麼叫做科技準證,我們要去世界網絡人才台灣人其實真的很強台灣人有一個做Living Optics的AI相機其實你看包括輝達黃仁鑫台灣人包括AMD蘇之鋒台灣人包括梁建厚、美超維"},{"start":414.639,"end":433.335,"text":"包括這一家這一家其實是臺灣人新創他這個其實用那個顏色可以做AI的辨識其實比人眼可能要強100倍這個其實他是人才但是其實他在英國然後被新加坡吸引去了所以就是說我們這一百"},{"start":434.11,"end":434.21,"text":"許智傑議員"},{"start":456.693,"end":478.499,"text":"當然我們都不是惡人,但是好的我們可以學習,所以你吸收國際人才,包括像我們這個台灣人叫新加坡KiKi,我們也很沒差,所以這個部分可能數位發展部跟國發會甚至跟經濟部,我們是不是有一個國內的類似新加坡的經濟發展局,"},{"start":481.898,"end":496.865,"text":"經濟發展局跟特務一樣很厲害全世界各地的展覽他都去看看一看以後有什麼好的展覽他都去拜訪拜訪覺得將來有機會就把他找進來找進來以後這個是一個很強的企業他還可以增加就業機會可以增加國內投資"},{"start":498.286,"end":499.327,"text":"發展AI高科技產業最重要的是人才"},{"start":520.471,"end":535.123,"text":"最優秀的人才都希望居住在一個美麗迷人而且宜居的城市高雄市一個美麗迷人而且宜居的城市所以我們認為說高雄市發展AI一個很好的地點"},{"start":538.945,"end":561.2,"text":"中央需要專門去找人才的一個單位不管是我們的經濟部也好不管是我們的國發會也好不管是我們的速發部也好就說要有這樣子一個方向去找甚至他這個一百億的基金你否國內的企業有沒有否地方政府"},{"start":563.37,"end":565.994,"text":"主要是給企業如果地方政府要發展這方面的專業但是呢這個地方政府呢"},{"start":579.893,"end":581.454,"text":"主要是讓這個在這個地方上可以發展得更好這個我們這樣子錢可以用嗎"},{"start":603.053,"end":628.843,"text":"跟委員報告一下 國發基金主要是依據產創條例只要符合上面的規定 個別企業也可以來申請我們的資金對 所以我就說其實我們在評分的時候 如果加上他跟地方政府合作可以可以增加他被我們核准的機會的話事實上地方政府他要發展會有角色 否則你就看不到地方政府的角色"},{"start":629.682,"end":643.136,"text":"我們可以看其實我們地方政府現在也很努力在招商我們可以看到那個輝達已經跟那個鴻海在我們高雄設台北灣所以那個名字叫台北灣了那是設在高雄那包括"},{"start":643.929,"end":669.567,"text":"MD也要把研發中心進駐高雄所以我再一次的呼籲就是亞馬遜呢中央如果說有那個角度就是臺北當臺灣政治的首都高雄當臺灣AI的首都那現在高雄正好有這個條件不管是這一些科技大廠進駐那不管是我剛提到海南站我們希望說數化部可以盡快然後跟NCC能夠盡快把這個全世界你可以看新加坡那個網路"},{"start":671.724,"end":698.514,"text":"新加坡你看那個海底電纜那個多強啊真的是全世界海底電纜現在幾乎是第一強的大概是新加坡那我們台灣其實這是我們一個學習的方向所以從興達電廠這裡我們電也比其他地方好我們在這邊大廠也來了甚至高雄也不缺水整體上來高雄的環境都很好那包括這一陣子其實陳其邁市長也"},{"start":699.656,"end":699.756,"text":"主席"},{"start":730.109,"end":758.014,"text":"世界很強的一個AI城市這個部分是不是院長可以認同謝謝委員 報告委員包括城市長他一直是非常努力在招商在引資 在留財的地方首長那高雄找一個適當的地點讓海嵐上岸所以包括委員剛剛所提的興達港在內我們還有幾個地方在評估"},{"start":758.598,"end":787.018,"text":"那10月2號我們會邀集7家的廠商再進一步來演講如何把高雄打造一個更符合現在所謂南部S狼帶能夠發展的一個以高雄為中心向上發展的一個基地那這個部分是符合國家重大建設的謝謝院長我的意思是說AI其實在高雄應該就是中央部會能夠幫忙強化你可以看到AI三立就是人力 算力 應用力那我們的"},{"start":788.183,"end":788.343,"text":"施政委員"},{"start":805.061,"end":827.201,"text":"北部的條件更適合很多所以現在就是幾個方面的條件將來我們希望說我們在這三例上面能夠再加強首先就是海南站上來再來就是資料中心跟超級電腦超級電腦現在也進來了將來就整個AI的應用能夠在高雄發光發熱把高雄的經驗可以推到全台灣甚至可以跟全世界結合"},{"start":830.344,"end":850.702,"text":"蘇發部、國發會、經濟部可以幫忙協助最後一個就是亞洲資產管理中心這個金融特區跟家族辦公室事實上我也看到新加坡也做得還不錯所以這個部分是不是有機會在高雄設置甚至就是境外銀行等等的高雄是一個處女地"},{"start":852.363,"end":854.085,"text":"高雄在過去既有的基礎上面我們能夠建置一個資產管理的一個專區或是一個聚落一個園區"},{"start":875.023,"end":900.556,"text":"所以現在這個方向沒有問題我們已經在規劃的更細部的做法除了延續過去我們的既有的兩三年前會討論基礎以外我們最近還會把它加入有關私人銀行還有OPU還有一些其他的加入辦公室的機能在裡面這是以高雄為主 是的這個非常重要所以這是包括AI的算力人力應用力整個軟體的發展的資源"},{"start":902.504,"end":903.005,"text":"許智傑委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:15:51 - 16:31:20","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154882"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:31:15","end_time":"2024-09-24T16:05:10+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154881","gazette":{"lineno":266,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（15時34分）謝謝韓院長。主席以及各位先進，我們有請行政院的卓院長。"],["主席：再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：院長你好，你今天很紅耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啦！"],["賴委員士葆：你今天很紅。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啦、不會啦！"],["賴委員士葆：因為大家都在問：哇！你一期電費15萬是怎麼用的？有夠紅啊！你google一下，都是卓榮泰用電15萬，2個月15萬，1個月7萬5,000元。從早上到現在，難道你的幕僚沒有告訴你為什麼會花這麼多錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員……"],["賴委員士葆：早上也問，下午到現在沒有答案耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該沒有看早上我對其他委員的答復。"],["賴委員士葆：你答復不清楚，我看了不清楚，你說你們查看看有什麼地方電器壞了等等的……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是，委員，1分鐘讓我答復可以嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你什麼答復？"],["卓院長榮泰：520之後裡面還在整修，所以我在6月中下旬開始才陸續有一些會議在那裡開……"],["賴委員士葆：雞同鴨講啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：6月中到7月以後，我才進去……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有說你浪費，沒有人在說你浪費……"],["卓院長榮泰：事實是這樣陳述。"],["賴委員士葆：你住的時間不多，可是大家問一個堂堂的行政院長，過去的宰相，結果你1個月幾度電，你知道嗎？幾度電你知道嗎？1個月，你也不知道啊！都這樣，從早上到現在都沒有認真做功課。"],["卓院長榮泰：有啦！"],["賴委員士葆：兩萬度電。"],["卓院長榮泰：一萬九千多……"],["賴委員士葆：兩萬度電是什麼概念？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說……"],["賴委員士葆：來，你知不知道我們現在平均……"],["卓院長榮泰：我的懷疑是……"],["賴委員士葆：你聽我講完好不好？我講完再讓你講。你知不知道普羅大眾老百姓平均1個月是多少？幾度電？"],["卓院長榮泰：也有用100度的啊！"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你說一個極端值啦！每個月超過1,000度的占2%，我們院長是兩萬度，1個月兩萬度，就是這個最高2%的20倍，大家看了跳起來，我們院長到底是在哪裡啊？在雲端啊！Somewhere 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sky。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你知道那裡面有4棟……"],["賴委員士葆：不接地氣啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：那裡面有4棟建築物嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，那是第二件事情……"],["卓院長榮泰：怎麼會第二件事情？"],["賴委員士葆：第二件事情……"],["卓院長榮泰：好像是我一個人用了兩萬度電一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：你要面對的就是你的官邸用了兩萬度，沒錯啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是我一個人用兩萬度電嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你的官邸用了兩萬度電，這沒有錯啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，那裡有4棟建築物。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼建築物不管，就是你的官邸用了兩萬度電，卓榮泰官邸用了兩萬度電……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是不正確的訊息。"],["賴委員士葆：是我們最高2%的20倍，我就告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：不要用這種簡單的數學……"],["賴委員士葆：簡單就是這樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：看一個事實的狀況，那裡有4棟建築物，裡面居住的人不是只有我一個人。"],["賴委員士葆：是不是都統統開冷氣，郭智輝說不要每個房間開冷氣耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是4個房間啦！是4棟建築物。"],["賴委員士葆：一樣啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，不是4個房間，是4棟建築。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你認為兩萬度剛剛好，是吧？不會太多？"],["卓院長榮泰：什麼？對不起。"],["賴委員士葆：你認為兩萬度不會太多嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：夏天一過，大家的電都會往下降，但是那裡的用電異常我發現了，也謝謝委員從昨天開始的提醒，我們現在全面來檢修它裡面電力是不是有異常，不可能用到這麼多。"],["賴委員士葆：太離譜啦！我給你一個數字啦！信義區的頂級豪宅1個月的電費大概3萬，你1個月的電費7萬5，豪宅的2.5倍啦！好，這個問題就到此為止了。"],["卓院長榮泰：那裡面有4棟建築物，住了非常非常多的人，不是我一個人，委員不能把狀態停在這種錯誤的資訊。"],["賴委員士葆：第二件事就是……"],["卓院長榮泰：不能把狀態停在這種不真實的資訊。"],["賴委員士葆：你就是坐擁耗電這麼大的地方，這樣說就對了啊！","來，我們來看，請問你，這個題目我問過你，我也問過陳建仁，在今年3月我問了陳建仁，我說：「院長啊，5月1號勞動節不要一國兩制啦！有些人就可以放假，有些人不放假，多麼的不方便，我們要不要一國一制，統統放假？」你知道陳建仁怎麼跟我講？我問了我好高興，我覺得不錯耶！我至少幫大家都得分了對不對？看起來今年的5月1號就要放了喔！結果沒有啊！明年5月1號也沒有！我去查了一下，內政部相關的長官還告訴我們相關人員說因為卓院長沒有交代啊！卓院長只要交代就放假啦！請問你全國是不是希望5月1號全面放假？請問你要不要全面放假？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前依照公務員服務法，我們整年公務員的休假已經達到115到116天，這個已經達到上限，況且今年5月1號也沒有放假，明年我們衡諸……"],["賴委員士葆：明年也不放啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：各方的意見還沒有辦法有效的共識……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候有共識？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是各種、各方的意見……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候會有共識？請問你們的態度怎麼樣，你會不會覺得怪怪的？怪怪的啊！比如說今天你要來上班，旁邊你的同仁、替你開車的，他照理講要放，他是勞工，他要放啊，對不對？那其他的公務員不放啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很多的假日是這樣子啊！"],["賴委員士葆：那其他的公務員不放啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：很多的假日是這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：部長旁邊替他開車的都要放啊，為什麼不放？"],["卓院長榮泰：請人事長說明一下公務員的放假方式。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一下，因為在整個紀念日及節日實施辦法中內政部會去考慮，這次明年沒……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦，你不要跟我講那麼多，因為你講……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有啦！明年沒放假的原因，主要就是……"],["賴委員士葆：人事長……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那一天有一些勞工……"],["賴委員士葆：你回答，回答我，回答我，院長你的態度傾向要放或者不放？或者我不知道？院長我只請問你，我不要人事長，我要問院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛說過已經達到我們放假的上限，這是一個；再來社會的共識……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，放假有上限？"],["卓院長榮泰：公務員服務法……"],["賴委員士葆：有上限？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們放假加上週休2日是115到116天。"],["賴委員士葆：你回頭去看一看陳建仁怎麼回答我的？「樂見其成」，非常正面！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是今年……"],["賴委員士葆：讓我以為要放了耶！結果不是啊，沒有啊！我覺得……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我認為陳院長也一定經過多方的考量跟社會的溝通，所以今年的5月1號……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有放啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們秉持一樣的溝通繼續進行……"],["賴委員士葆：明年也沒有放啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：繼續進行溝通。"],["賴委員士葆：繼續進行溝通？有沒有機會放，我問你有沒有機會放？我問你有沒有機會？有沒有機會嘛！院長讓你講一句。"],["卓院長榮泰：有沒有機會放假？"],["賴委員士葆：對，有沒有機會放？明年……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果社會共識都非常高……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有機會啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以循……社會共識都非常高……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要跟我講那麼多條件……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是……"],["賴委員士葆：就講有機會或者確定沒有機會這樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：我講太快，你又說我獨裁；我講太慢，你又說我拖拉！"],["賴委員士葆：我從剛剛到現在為止沒有講過你獨裁耶，我不知道你獨裁從哪來的，我從頭到尾、到現在為止還沒有講獨裁，還沒有講過這個字眼。"],["卓院長榮泰：也許不是啦，我講太快你會說我「獨斷」，這樣可以嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：我也沒有講你獨斷啦！奇怪咧，我沒有講的話，你把它塞到我嘴巴裡面，I don't accept. I don't buy it. 我不買帳，不可以這樣子喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：那我這樣說，我不能講太快，否則我會獨斷，我必須要跟社會溝通。"],["賴委員士葆：我沒有講的話，你不能塞到我嘴巴裡面。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我收回來啊！我不能講太快，我不能獨斷，我必須跟社會溝通。"],["賴委員士葆：好，人事長可以回去了，雖然我知道你想表現，但以後再來。","來，我們來看賴總統說AI就是國力，我贊成；把臺灣造成人工智慧之島，沒有人反對，結果亞洲四小龍各位看一看喔！AI的國力，我只比較四小龍，第1名新加坡；南韓15名；香港20名；臺灣25名啊，亞洲四小龍最後一名，丟臉！枉費我們的賴總統拚成這樣！"],["卓院長榮泰：希望委員我們一起看得起臺灣好嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：來，來，我還沒講完，你不要急，不要急！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起看得起臺灣啦！"],["賴委員士葆：來，來，我還沒急喔！國科會有發展一個LLM叫TAIDE你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：大型語言模型啦！"],["賴委員士葆：對，TAIDE語言模型。你知道嗎？結果Lawyer Qualification Results律師資格的檢查，看看我們AI的程度、準確率怎麼樣，結果臺灣才37.8，倒數最後一個！主委啊……"],["卓院長榮泰：請吳主委說明。"],["賴委員士葆：主委你貴姓啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：你看到感覺如何？你難道不會感到不好意思？TAIDE，TAIDE，TAIDE！"],["吳主任委員誠文：有啦，會不好意思啦！連我都不好意思了。"],["賴委員士葆：看到會不好意思啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：有啦，我們開始在努力了，所以我們未來幾年會快速的成長。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，我跟你報告請你仔細看喔！第1名你沒有看得很清楚，因為這字太小了，第1名這一家是臺灣的公司呢！臺灣發展的喔！這個代表什麼意思？我們整體的國力，AI的國力，輸給亞洲其他的三小龍。第二個，我們國科會發展的TAIDE輸給臺灣國內的廠家，這才嚴重啊！國家給你那麼多資源，結果却輸了！"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實國外的AI硬體都是臺灣做的。"],["賴委員士葆：好。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們自己的應用，現在才剛開始要起步、要發展，所以將來我們會快速的追趕。"],["賴委員士葆：你要不要弄個KPI啊？院長，我問你啦，給你企圖心，好不好？你什麼時候可以超過香港？"],["吳主任委員誠文：超過新加坡啊？"],["賴委員士葆：香港，不要說新加坡，新加坡是第1名啊！香港是第20名，韓國……"],["吳主任委員誠文：兩年內。"],["賴委員士葆：兩年內喔？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["賴委員士葆：喔，我不知道你會不會做兩年耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們的硬體製造相當好，但我們現在全力發展軟體的部分，所以我說我們要進入一個主權AI的應用時代，這個就是主權AI的一個具體表現。"],["賴委員士葆：這我不會管你，你要怎麼說都可以。我只是告訴你，我們不如亞洲三小龍，我們的TAIDE，whatever輸給國內廠家是很丟臉的，再努力一點，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩年超過韓國，對不對？韓國第15名，我們是第25名啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：你說韓國啊？"],["賴委員士葆：對，韓國。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定急起直追。"],["賴委員士葆：兩年可以吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：3年。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼退縮了？香港第20名……"],["吳主任委員誠文：對啊！"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，請你回座。","下一位，請院長請一下央行的楊總裁。"],["主席：麻煩請央行楊總裁備詢。"],["賴委員士葆：我對於楊總裁的學經歷、專業啊……雖然我是反對黨，但我都說他的好話耶，他的個性憨厚、老實、坦率、認真努力，不敢忤逆長官，一般是這樣、大家覺得是這樣。咦！這次很奇怪，卓院長8月29號說：不會有限貸令。簡單來講，銀根要寬鬆；賴總統9月1號也說：沒有限貸令。我不管細節啦，我就講一個東西，你們兩位當然希望資金寬鬆、百業發達，大家有錢可賺，資金流動多、流動性（liquidity），大家都知道央行重視這個東西，結果總裁「砰」一個人就說出核彈級的信用管制，這裡面一定有原因，以你這麼溫和的人、這麼憨厚的人、這麼老實的人，怎麼會「砰」一聲說要緊縮？正面打臉卓院長跟蔣總統，不是！是賴總統，不是蔣總統。我馬上改，是賴總統，不是蔣總統。好，你要不要講一下，你看到什麼才一定要做這個東西？你看到什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：我首先跟委員報告，我們院長還有總統講……"],["賴委員士葆：他們的意思是不是資金要寬鬆，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有限貸令……"],["賴委員士葆：資金要寬鬆，對吧？不然我問你，是不是資金要寬鬆？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我想他們也有講，我的認知就是，當時有一些銀行因為他們的貸款都已經到達30%，第七十二條……"],["賴委員士葆：30%？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，30%，他們到臨界點了、已經到警戒點了……"],["賴委員士葆：土建、土地建築……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以他們的……"],["賴委員士葆：現在貸款百分之三十七點多了……"],["楊總裁金龍：30%，所以有一些銀行就採取了限貸令，當時市場跟他們講這個就是限貸令，這是市場給他們的一個名稱，但這是銀行本身自主性的一個限貸令，我們就說限貸令啦。但這個不是我們政府推動的限貸令，這是銀行的自主管理，因為他們要到達那個ceiling了……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有、沒有，等一下，你的意思是說，你看到銀行給房地產的房貸……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員士葆：已經到了滿水位，你不能忍受了，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是、不是……"],["賴委員士葆：就這個意思？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是！不是！央行的選擇性信用管制從2020年它就存在了，而這個限貸令是前一陣子，事實上在6、7、8月的時候，是銀行它貸款的……"],["賴委員士葆：總裁，枉費我這麼稱讚你，你都沒有回答我的問題，我的問題是，為什麼你要祭出這麼強烈的信用管制？你還沒有回答我的問題，先不要管限貸令的部分！你看到了什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們也是認為，銀行的授信過度的集中。"],["賴委員士葆：好，因為我的時間有限，很抱歉，我希望你長話短說，是不是你看到了，如果沒有出手，是有可能引起本土型的金融風暴？有沒有可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想是這樣子的，第一個，我們的信用資源要合理的分配，這是第一點；第二點，如果我們的資源沒有做合理的分配、太過集中的時候；如果沒有去注意它的時候，很容易就像日本或是美國，即日本的一個泡沫還有……"],["賴委員士葆：次貸風暴。"],["楊總裁金龍：還有次貸風暴，就是這樣子，但是我們是認為……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你才會在心裡想，如果我沒有出手，臺灣可能步入日本跟美國的次貸風暴，有可能會發生，是不是這樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：這是一個時間的問題，如果我們現在來出手的時候，那麼這個可能就不會發生；如果我們太接近去出手的時候，這個泡沫會爆掉，所以這是一個時間、距離的問題，而且我也不是說明天就是要bubble了……"],["賴委員士葆：那個就是硬著陸了，那個就是斷崖式了。對此，我有聽到一個聲音說，是因為你看到了臺灣的……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們也不是說……"],["賴委員士葆：你聽我講完，不要緊張，就是你聽到有四、五間中型的銀行，差不多快要有問題了，所以趕快出手，有這回事嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：你再說一次。"],["賴委員士葆：就是你有聽到中型的銀行，因為過度的放貸，快要出問題了，所以你趕快來出手……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，就是說它快要出問題……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有！沒有！沒有說它要出問題，沒有這回事，我們只是說，如果大家都是到達這個ceiling的時候，那這樣的話，在貸款上會出亂子。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，大家有沒有到達ceiling？"],["楊總裁金龍：什麼？"],["賴委員士葆：大家有沒有到達ceiling？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，都是到26%、27%，因為到28%的時候就已經很高了，因為……"],["賴委員士葆：ceiling是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：30%。"],["賴委員士葆：30%嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對！對！對！"],["賴委員士葆：它到了28%啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：28%、27%、26%、25%，都有啦！只是說有一些銀行是這樣子啦！"],["賴委員士葆：剛才有民進黨的委員提到，你這裡面會不會有濫殺無辜？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想委員這樣的懷疑是合理的，但是我也要藉這個機會來跟委員報告，事實上，我們持續的在聆聽、聽取各方的意見，如果有必要的時候，對於那些需要協助的，就是那些我們所稱「無辜的」，我想我們可能會推出相關的協處措施或是排除條款。"],["賴委員士葆：主要就是寬限期……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的資訊也是很多，我們要聽取各方的……"],["賴委員士葆：等於是你有一個補救的配套措施要出來，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：那個也不是「補救」，也可以說它是配套措施好了！"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候會出來？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會儘快。"],["賴委員士葆：1個月，可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們不用那麼久！"],["賴委員士葆：兩個禮拜？也不用那麼久？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，如果有一些人需要來協助的時候，我個人都覺得是儘快、越快越好，這樣才能夠協助他們……"],["賴委員士葆：就你講的我做一個小結：一個禮拜以內提出相關配套，就特殊需要的情況專案處理，這樣對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我們儘快啦！"],["賴委員士葆：你可以接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：拜託委員，這要讓央行能夠有充裕的時間妥善因應，蒐集各方反映後，才能做出整套合理的制度……"],["賴委員士葆：院長，這個讓他講，他比較專業。總裁，就你剛剛講的話我能不能做一個小結？就是楊金龍總裁看到了銀行的貸款水位不斷接近天花板（ceiling），怕引起本土性、類似日本、美國的次貸風暴，所以不得不痛下殺手，這樣對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個講得太嚴重了，太嚴重了！"],["楊總裁金龍：太嚴重了。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有這樣子。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個也不是說馬上就會發生的問題，我們是說如果能夠給我們比較長的時間來做一些……"],["賴委員士葆：總裁，我是替你講話，因為你這一出手得罪院長、得罪總統！他們是希望資金寬鬆耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有……"],["楊總裁金龍：不會……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會！我在上次院會當中說要感謝中央銀行在第一時間提醒行庫跟社會大眾，我們是非常肯定的。"],["賴委員士葆：總裁請回，謝謝。我請教韓國瑜院長，抱歉，我很少請教你。請問經濟部郭智輝部長今天不來有沒有跟你請假？他有什麼偉大的公事？講一下，讓我了解一下他是什麼偉大的公事今天不來？"],["主席：跟賴士葆委員報告，時間暫停。郭智輝部長因公赴日本訪問，因此請假。"],["賴委員士葆：日本？你知道哪裡嗎？"],["主席：目前沒有，我只知道他的時間。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，你人太好了，你說用愛對他，所以他們吃定你了。他去熊本啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：去熊本啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：部長去熊本，因為熊本的重大投資……"],["賴委員士葆：重大什麼投資？台積電也沒有去。不僅僅這個禮拜二他不來，禮拜五他也不來，郭智輝帶頭藐視國會！卓院長，你前幾天才說要各部會首長都要來備詢，結果經濟部長不理你！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我說除了陪總統接見重要外賓，或有特別重要的行程。這一件事郭部長在早先就跟我說了……"],["賴委員士葆：這很重要嗎？重要到比來國會備詢重要？"],["卓院長榮泰：國會備詢當然重要……"],["賴委員士葆：國會這麼重要的地方……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有次長代理……"],["賴委員士葆：讓次長出國就好了……"],["卓院長榮泰：次長代理也是正當、正常的程序。"],["賴委員士葆：他是管經貿的，對電不懂，叫他來沒用，鴨子聽雷，就這麼簡單。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的部長、次長都是在專業上跟委員就教的。"],["賴委員士葆：你不要講外行話！次長都有分工的，請問你是不是管國貿的？貿易的，對吧？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛！"],["陳次長正祺：但我也代表部長。"],["賴委員士葆：如果今天問CPTPP，你可以回答。"],["陳次長正祺：楊政委在那邊。"],["賴委員士葆：問ECFA，你可以回答，國發會可以回答。但我問你電，你就ありません，你不知道啊，對不對？院長，要求部會首長不要輕易假借出國就叫不來啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：容許我代替郭部長再向委員跟院長致歉，這確實是非常重要的行程……"],["賴委員士葆：非常重要？"],["卓院長榮泰：今天也有一位首長本來也想請假，但我們認為院會比較重要，還是請他留在這裡。至於郭部長這個是之前跟日方就安排好的行程，早先就跟我講過了。"],["賴委員士葆：我建議，我們都很尊敬、很愛戴韓院長，以後他們部會首長請假不要隨便准，要問清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：我有請郭部長至少要跟秘書長請示過……"],["賴委員士葆：他只有講日本，對不對？唬弄啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我現在證實我有請郭部長一定、至少跟秘書長請示過，得到院長首肯才能夠請假。"],["賴委員士葆：我當年在法制委員會當召委時，總統府秘書長游錫堃來跟我請假，我就不准，理由不充分啊！他說那個重要，我說來立法院更重要，因為要面對人民，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：接下來在會期中再發生這種狀況會越來越少，因為這個時間是在之前就安排好的，當時會期還沒有完全訂定。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，你知道嗎？或者次長要講也可以。現在流行OOC還有OOT，你知道嗎？Out of China、Out of Taiwan，為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有聽過這樣的講法。"],["賴委員士葆：你聽我講完，不要急，你還沒有進入狀況，不要隨便答。Tesla、通用他們就告訴供應商，他們要避開中國的供應鏈，要避開臺灣的供應鏈，要避開中國供應鏈是因為美國跟中國在fight，要避開臺灣則是因為臺灣有地緣的風險，所以OOC、OOT不僅僅Tesla、通用，特別現在連半導體也是如此，所以現在郭部長就變成帶頭OOT（Out of Taiwan），特別是Out of the Legislative Yuan！"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，委員，不是這樣的講法啦，這樣對郭部長也不公平。"],["賴委員士葆：就是這樣子啊，他就不在啊！對不對？所以我要特別提醒院長，對於你的部會首長，不能讓人家吃定你啊，隨便給你唬弄一下，這只有兩個可能，第一個，他不願意來面對立法院，第二個，可能你認為他的應對技巧不好，最好他不要來。對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：都非事實！"],["賴委員士葆：你看像顧立雄國防部長，他的嘴很會說，都不用怕，他來都不用怕，就讓他來，你都不用擔心，但郭部長不是啊，他來是講三句錯四句。","來，我們來看台電，它一直要錢，一直虧損，112（去）年到現在我們給它多少錢了？給3,000億欸，給3,000億欸！現在還要追加預算1,000億、還有明年度的增加預算1,000億，總共2,000億，不到兩年的時間要5,000億，要這麼多錢，但一直虧錢！所以我說陳次長就不能來嘛，郭部長這個生意人就知道，這種公司怎麼能生存，負債百分之九十幾！對不對？更可議的是，最近網路上大概是台電發動吧，還是誰發動的，說不給錢就要漲價，恐嚇立法院，我們都還沒有審查……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，沒有這樣的講法。"],["賴委員士葆：我們都沒有審查，什麼不給過就恐嚇要漲電價，這個禮拜五要開電價審議委員會，要漲13%……"],["卓院長榮泰：請次長說明一下，沒有這樣的講法。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，沒有這樣……"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼會這樣呢？"],["陳次長正祺：這個不是事實，這個不是事實。事實上，電價……"],["賴委員士葆：你們要發新聞稿啊！"],["陳次長正祺：電價要由這個月的電價審議會來決定。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你們要不要面對這樣子的社會側翼的網攻，你們要發新聞稿表示沒有對立法院做這樣的攻擊，說立法院不給錢我們就要漲價……"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，台電……"],["賴委員士葆：這什麼跟什麼！這是PUA！"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，台電下午已經有公開澄清了。"],["賴委員士葆：情緒勒索！PUA！PUA（Pick-up Artist），這個是情緒勒索，很嚴重啊，這假訊息，然後我們就覺得很奇怪啊！"],["陳次長正祺：我們在這邊正式澄清，這個是假訊息，沒有這樣的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，你看喔，核能1.1塊錢，再生能源5塊錢，這是台電自己說的，因為核電不用1塊錢，再生能源的成本多4塊……"],["卓院長榮泰：核廢料的處理成本非常高。"],["賴委員士葆：一直做就一直虧錢！一直做一直虧錢！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你是財經專家，你應該算得出來這個成本，你不能只看1.1塊錢，核廢料的處理成本是非常高的。"],["賴委員士葆：你說的那個都是五四三啦！","好啦，我的時間快到了，最後一個題目，大法官現在快要變成過街老鼠，人人喊打了，特別是廢死的解釋出來之後。法務部長可以上台，你看大法官喔，最近民調顯示，5成以上對大法官的獨立性沒有信心，法務部鄭部長上來吧。好啦，大法官現在是社會最大的亂源，只要解釋一出，社會必亂，在109年的時候做了790號解釋令，讓大麻現在到處氾濫，大麻是二級毒品，對不對？部長，對吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：大麻是二級毒品。"],["賴委員士葆：二級毒品喔，到處氾濫，就因為大法官790號解釋。再過來，國會擴權暫時處分，朝野不合，再過來現在死刑釋憲。部長，你剛剛客氣了啦，我們就講一個，差不多，這37個人通通放了啦，不會死刑啦，對吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要審查，這個現在會由最高檢察署審查137人……"],["賴委員士葆：結果就是這樣啦，這很悲哀！而且現在大法官真的變成過街老鼠，人人喊打。"],["主席：謝謝，時間已到。謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓的是日本關西大學老師帶著學生來中華民國立法院參觀，我們掌聲歡迎。歡迎，歡迎大家，日本來的好朋友，謝謝。","報告院會，現在休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢。現在休息。","休息（16時5分）","繼續開會（16時15分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 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平均是多少 幾度點我告訴你這個極端值每個月超過一千度的 佔兩趴 兩趴 萬度 兩趴百分之二 我們院長是兩萬度"},{"start":151.377,"end":177.857,"text":"一個月兩萬度就是這個最高兩趴的二十倍大家看得到嗎?我們院長到底是在哪裡啊?在分店啊?在雲端啊?我以為你知道那裡面有四棟建築物嗎?怎麼會第二件事情?好像是我一個人用了兩萬度的電一樣"},{"start":180.909,"end":181.47,"text":"這是我們最高2%的20倍"},{"start":200.046,"end":200.906,"text":"所以你認為兩萬度剛剛好是吧不會太多你認為兩萬度不會太多嗎"},{"start":227.654,"end":227.934,"text":"我給你個數字啦"},{"start":258.912,"end":266.477,"text":"那裡面有4棟建築物住了非常非常多的人不是我一個人委員不能把狀態停在這種錯誤的資訊不能把狀態停在這種不真實的資訊"},{"start":272.881,"end":276.024,"text":"這個題目我問過你 我還問過陳建仁在今年3月 我問了陳建仁 我說 誒 院長啊5月1號勞動節不要一國兩制"},{"start":294.858,"end":316.826,"text":"有些人就可以放假 有些人不放假 多麼的不方便我們要不要一國一制 統統放假 你知道陳建聯怎麼跟我講我最少幫大家都得分了 對不對 看起來今年的五月一號就要放樓 結果沒有啊"},{"start":319.252,"end":320.413,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":339.5,"end":340.401,"text":"明年你不放啊什麼時候會有共識"},{"start":361.292,"end":373.167,"text":"請問你們 你的態度怎麼樣你是不是很害羞很害羞啊你今天比如說你要來上班旁邊你的同仁替你開車的他照理講他要放啊"},{"start":374.551,"end":400.58,"text":"他是老公啊 他要放啊對不對 其他公務員不放啊很多市府長 旁邊的 其他開車的都要放啊 為什麼不放請人事長說明一下公務員的放假方式委員報告一下啦 因為在整個假日期 今天是實施辦法 內政部要去考慮這次的美女沒有放假的原因 主要就是"},{"start":401.48,"end":406.283,"text":"我剛說過已經達到我們放假的上限這是一個再來社會的構思公務員服務法我們放假加上週休二日是115到116天已經回答看一看陳建仁怎麼回答我的"},{"start":430.717,"end":455.826,"text":"樂見其成 非常正面 讓我以為要放了 結果不是啊 我認爲陳院長也一定經過多方的考量跟社會的溝通 所以今年的5月1號我們秉持一樣的溝通繼續進行溝通有沒有機會放我問你有沒有機會問你 有沒有機會 有沒有機會讓我跟院長溝通"},{"start":458.783,"end":466.028,"text":"我講太快你又說我獨裁我講太慢你又說我拖拉我到現在為止沒有講過你獨裁的我不知道你這次獨裁要怎麼來的"},{"start":480.009,"end":481.651,"text":"我不能講太快否則我會獨斷我必須要跟社會溝通"},{"start":502.401,"end":506.423,"text":"來 我們來看賴總統說AI就是國力或戰型把台灣造成人工智慧之道沒有人團隊結果呢 亞洲是小龍各位看起來 看一看喔"},{"start":533.459,"end":537.44,"text":"AI的國力第一名新加坡四小龍指揮校南韓15名香港20名臺灣25名亞洲四小龍同位1名介紹總裁的賴總統表達好來來來我還沒起"},{"start":561.021,"end":571.208,"text":"你知道國科會有發展一個LM叫泰德語言模型"},{"start":574.298,"end":602.916,"text":"你知道嗎 結果人家loyal qualification result就是律師的資格的檢查看看我的AI的程度怎麼樣我們的準確力怎麼樣結果台灣37.8倒數同位這個主委請吳主委說明主委你貴姓吳主委是是謝謝你看得怎麼樣"},{"start":604.275,"end":607.297,"text":"第一名這一家這第一家是台灣的公司台灣發電的"},{"start":634.368,"end":646.472,"text":"這個代表什麼意思我們整體的國力AI的國力輸給亞洲其他的山小龍第二個我們國科會發展的態度輸給台灣台灣國內的成家"},{"start":655.824,"end":674.671,"text":"國外的AI硬體其實都是台灣做的那我們自己的應用我們現在才剛開始要起步要發展所以將來我們會快速的追趕你要不要弄個KPI啊你什麼時候可以超過香港"},{"start":688.57,"end":698.973,"text":"委員我們的硬體製造相當的好但這個軟體的部分我們現在在全力發展我們的軟體所以我說我們要進入一個主權AI的應用時代這個就是主權AI的一個具體表現"},{"start":704.312,"end":713.138,"text":"我們不如亞洲三小龍我們太太太太太太太太太太太太太太太太太太太太太"},{"start":731.493,"end":748.933,"text":"請備選"},{"start":758.985,"end":786.699,"text":"我對楊總裁的學經歷專業雖然我是反對黨我都講他好話他的構想就是人高於老實掉底緊緊扒拼不敢忤逆長官一般是這樣大家覺得是這樣這次很奇怪左院長8月29號說不會有現代力就是聽他講我應該要寬鬆"},{"start":791.365,"end":812.497,"text":"賴總統9月1號也說沒有現代力我不管細節啦齁我就要講一個東西你們兩位當然就是希望資金寬鬆然後百業發達然後大家有機會談資金流動多流動性嘛Liquidity大家都知道兩岸總是這個東西齁"},{"start":815.393,"end":838.503,"text":"結果我們總裁碰一個人就說叫核彈級的信用官職這裡面一定有原因了以你這麼溫和的人這麼溝語的人這麼老實的人怎麼會碰一個說我要經說正面打臉左院長跟蔣總統不是跟那個賴總統不是蔣總統我們上台賴總統不是蔣總統"},{"start":844.793,"end":849.269,"text":"好 你要不要講一下 你看到什麼一定要做這個東西 看到什麼"},{"start":852.149,"end":858.313,"text":"我首先來跟委員報告就是說我們院長還有總統他們一個講說"},{"start":880.268,"end":880.428,"text":"主席"},{"start":901.571,"end":902.692,"text":"賴士葆賴士葆"},{"start":917.287,"end":919.448,"text":"你的意思就是說你看到了銀行給房地產的"},{"start":944.98,"end":945.2,"text":"博士"},{"start":953.624,"end":956.385,"text":"為什麼你要祭出這麼強烈的信用管制你還沒回答問題"},{"start":982.035,"end":986.737,"text":"我希望你長話短說是不是你看到了如果沒有出手有可能引起"},{"start":1010.146,"end":1019.078,"text":"蠻圖形的金融網報有沒有可能我想是這樣子啦第一個就是說我們的資源要合理的"},{"start":1020.714,"end":1023.655,"text":"所以簡單來講就是你一想心一想如果我沒有出手"},{"start":1050.915,"end":1072.351,"text":"臺灣可能不如日本跟美國的次貸風暴不過這個是一個時間的問題啦如果我們現在來出手的時候呢 那麼這個可能就不會發生如果說我們太接近去出手的時候呢 這個泡沫會爆掉所以這個是一個時間的距離的一個問題啦"},{"start":1076.616,"end":1078.817,"text":"你聽到說有中型的銀行4、5間 差不多有問題 比較快出手 有這件事嗎"},{"start":1100.194,"end":1123.74,"text":"你再說一次你又聽到中型的銀行因為過度的放貸快要出問題了沒有就是說他快要出問題沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有說他要出問題沒有沒有這回事我們只是說如果說大家都是到達這個C0的時候呢那那這樣的話呢會會"},{"start":1125.06,"end":1126.662,"text":"請問大家有沒有到達西林?"},{"start":1134.534,"end":1148.277,"text":"大家有沒有到達西林沒有 都是到26 27因為他到28的時候就已經很高了因為他會 西林是多少 30他到了28啦 28 27 26 25都有啦 只是說有一些家是這樣子啦"},{"start":1158.041,"end":1183.153,"text":"剛才有民進黨的委員提到的你這裏面會不會有濫殺無辜我想委員這樣的懷疑是合理的但是我也要跟委員藉這個機會來跟委員報告事實上我們持續的在聆聽在聽取各方的意見"},{"start":1185.59,"end":1204.29,"text":"我們如果說必要的時候 我想我們對於那些需要協助的那些我們所稱的無辜的 我想我們可能會推出相關的協助措施或是排除條款"},{"start":1206.031,"end":1229.157,"text":"主要就是改憲期你等於說有一個補救的配套措施要出來對不對那個也不是說補救啦那也可以說啦是那個什麼配套措施好了阿什麼時候可以出來阿我想我們會盡快如果需要的話一個月內可以嗎一個月內可以嗎我不用那麼久我們不用那麼久"},{"start":1234.842,"end":1254.646,"text":"我跟委員報告 如果說有一些的人需要來協助的時候我個人都覺得盡快 越快越好這樣能夠協助他們我這樣子是不是可以 你講的我跟你做一個小節一個月一個禮拜以內"},{"start":1255.886,"end":1282.877,"text":"提出相關的配套特殊需要的情況我們專案處理這樣對嗎你可以接受嗎拜託委員這個讓央行能夠充裕的時間妥善的因應收集各方的反應之後他才能夠做出整套的合理的制度院長這回過了你比較專業這個總裁你剛剛講的話我能不能再做一個小結"},{"start":1284.192,"end":1304.24,"text":"就是楊金榮總裁看到了水位不斷的接近天花板怕引起本土性類似日本美國的時代風暴所以不得不痛下殺手"},{"start":1305.815,"end":1334.742,"text":"這個講得太嚴重了太嚴重了沒有這樣這個不是說是馬上就會發生的問題啦我們就說如果說能夠給我們比較長的時間來做一些事的話總裁啊我是替你講話啊因為你這一出手得罪院長啊得罪總統啊來給你重新寬鬆咧不會啦我在上次的院會當中我第一時間我說要感謝中央銀行第一時間提醒行庫跟社會大眾我們是非常肯定的"},{"start":1335.482,"end":1353.441,"text":"總裁請問請問請問謝謝我請教韓國瑜院長不好意思我很少請教你請問你經濟部的國智慧部長今天不來有沒有跟你請教阿他有什麼偉大的公事沒有"},{"start":1360.247,"end":1384.494,"text":"不是不是講一下我了解一下他是什麼偉大的公司他今天不來跟賴司法委員報告時間暫停郭勤輝部長因公赴日本訪問日本你知道哪裡嗎日本目前沒有我指出他的時間院長你人太好啦你說用愛對他他們吃定你啊他是最本啦"},{"start":1385.359,"end":1395.023,"text":"對 跟委員報告 部長去熊本 因為熊本的重大的投資這個台積電也沒有去啊 不僅僅這個禮拜他不來喔這個禮拜五他也不來喔 國智會 帶頭藐視國會那個 總院長啊 你前幾天才說喔"},{"start":1406.3,"end":1435.373,"text":"才說要各部會首長都要來備詢我説除了陪總統接見重要的外賓或者有特別重要的行程那這一件 郭部長在早先就跟我說了這個很重要嗎重要到比來國會備詢重要國會備詢當然重要國會這麼重要的地方我們有次長代理次長出國就好啦次長代理這個也是正常的程序他對一定都不同啊你叫他來都不好"},{"start":1437.219,"end":1450.068,"text":"請問你是不是管國貿的貿易的對吧是是嘛如果今天問CPTPP 你可以回答問ECPA 你可以回答 國貿會可以回答但是我問你電力的話 阿你馬上就不知道"},{"start":1466.872,"end":1472.621,"text":"對不對 這個東西這個 院長阿要求 不會所長阿"},{"start":1473.988,"end":1499.748,"text":"不要輕易的假借出國這個容許我也代替郭部長﹑在向委員跟院長致歉確實是非常重要的行程今天也有一位首長也是請假但我們認為說 院會比較重要還是請他留在這裡但是郭部長這個是之前跟日方就安排好的行程早先就跟我講過了我是建議啦 我們都很尊敬都很愛在喊院長以後他們不會送請假 不要隨便准啦"},{"start":1500.984,"end":1509.17,"text":"我當年當召委的時候在法治委員會游錫堃總統和秘書長來跟我請假我就不准阿理由不充分阿他說那個中藥我說來立法院跟中藥也面對人民欸"},{"start":1530.859,"end":1531.379,"text":"請問院長你知道嗎?"},{"start":1531.379,"end":1536.023,"text":"或者處長你要講也可以的 你知道嗎?現在流行一個叫 OOC 還有 OOT 知道嗎?Out of China Out of Taiwan"},{"start":1556.437,"end":1557.317,"text":"美國跟中國在fight"},{"start":1583.229,"end":1585.53,"text":"對不起委員不是這樣的講法這樣對郭部長也不公平"},{"start":1612.691,"end":1631.531,"text":"對 所以我要特別的提醒院長這個對於你的部會首長不能給人家吃定了 隨便給你糊弄一下這個只有兩個可能 第一個 他不願意來面對立法院第二個 可能你認為他的因應的技巧不好 最好他不要來"},{"start":1633.521,"end":1636.742,"text":"他一直要錢一直虧損到現在我們給他多少錢給3000億"},{"start":1662.855,"end":1689.757,"text":"給3千億然後現在還有一個追加金預算1千億還有明年度的增加預算1千億 2千億不到兩年的時間要5千億要這麼多錢還一定要錢所以我說這個陳社長就不能來嘛 郭部長生意人就傻了這種公司要怎麼做負債百分之九十幾"},{"start":1694.164,"end":1697.546,"text":"這個不是事實阿 這個不是事實阿"},{"start":1722.256,"end":1747.457,"text":"事實上電價要由這個月的這個電價審議會來決定請問你們要不要面對這樣子的一個社會側翼的罔工你們要不要兇搞我們沒有對立法院做這樣子的攻擊我們立法院提前就要我們要漲價這什麼跟什麼這叫PWA情緒勒索PWAPWAPick up"},{"start":1754.399,"end":1772.072,"text":"這個情緒勒索很嚴重這假訊息弄得然後我們就覺得奇怪我們在這邊政治澄清這個是假訊息沒有這樣的事情你看喔核能1.1塊錢再生能力5塊錢你台電跟你說什麼因為核電不用1塊錢生產成本多4塊"},{"start":1773.817,"end":1789.489,"text":"合費料的處理成本非常高委員你是財經的專家你應該算得出來這個成本不能只看1.1塊錢合費料的成本的處理是非常高的最後一個題目大法官現在快要變成過街老鼠了忍忍難打特別是會死的機制出來之後"},{"start":1801.289,"end":1825.174,"text":"那個法務部長可以上來齁你看大法官喔最近的人家的民調百分之五成以上對大法官獨立性沒有信心曾部長上來把法務部的好了大法官現在是社會最大的亂雲他只要解釋一出啊社會必亂在109年的時候790號解釋令"},{"start":1828.781,"end":1852.15,"text":"大麻現在到處氾濫大麻是二毒品對不對 二級毒品部長對嗎 二級毒品喔 到處氾濫 因為大麻跟790號解釋再過來國會擴權 暫時出分 朝野不合再過來現在死刑失陷現在部長啊 你剛剛客氣的啦 我們就講一個"},{"start":1853.334,"end":1853.514,"text":"賴士葆"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:33:55 - 16:05:10","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154881"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:15:49","end_time":"2024-09-24T15:33:45+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154880","gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（15時18分）有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：院長，先跟你抱歉，我們今天程序委員會行政院的預算再度被退回。從7月16日休會到今天可以正式在這邊再質詢院長，其實這一段時間柏毅在地方上也做了很多的努力，包含跟行政院團隊做的多項協調，我在這邊也要負責地跟我的選民報告。","新台17線在去年度院長還沒有上任的時候，國防部提出比原本多14億必須要高雄市政府來代拆代建，包含興建新的戰備跑道、包含中正哨口等等這一些，我在這個暑假期間也拜託公共工程委員會陳金德主委以及李怡德副主委，很順利在9月5號跟9月18號的現勘分別解決了幾個問題，甚至現在國防部也允許高雄市政府不用重送公建計畫，用抽換的方式直接跟國防部這邊來抽換，把14億裡面國防部需要的戰備跑道28億已經抽換完畢，目前就等國防部快速送給行政院，我們的目標還是期待在2026年這一條路能如期通車，在這邊感謝行政院各部會的協調，包含工程會跟高雄市政府還有國防部，院長，但這個也是明年度的預算。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，有關需要代拆代建的公共建設計畫，也就是南段二期那幾個需求項目，9月23號已經……"],["李委員柏毅：完成抽換了。"],["顧部長立雄：呈報行政院審議了。"],["李委員柏毅：9月23已經呈報了？"],["顧部長立雄：呈報行政院了。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝部長，你請回。其實我過去處理這條新台17線已經處理十幾年了，沒有那麼簡單，感謝行政院橫向的聯繫，很快的協調，但是我們還是需要這些經費。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的關心，讓我們可以跟地方政府一起合作……"],["李委員柏毅：第二個，感謝院長本人，就是清華大學跟陽明交大要來高雄左營設分校的事情，在教育部送到國發會審核的9億預算裡面，原本少了一半，經過院長親自了解之後，這一筆預算也回復到9億，在這邊也感謝院長，但是這個還是需要明年度的預算在立法院來做實質的審核。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["李委員柏毅：針對這兩個預算，在這邊感謝院長對於國家重點領域校際研教園區的支持，高雄其實正在轉變，高雄其實正在脫胎換骨，高雄因為台積電加上AI，還有種種的產業，高雄其實正在轉變，我們需要的是大量的建設，但是在新任交通部長來之前，前任交通部長其實有到我辦公室，希望可以溝通一個高雄的方案，也就是高鐵延伸到屏東要不要經過高雄車站的這個方案。","2019年行政院蘇院長來到屏東宣布左營方案，希望這個左營方案可以讓高鐵從左營直接進入屏東，不用經過高雄車站、不用再明挖、不用再潛盾，用比較少的經費讓高鐵可以進入屏東。但是前部長到我辦公室的時候，鐵道局拿了高雄方案說要潛盾、要明挖，我想要確認一下這件事情，有沒有這一個高雄計畫？目前我看到部長一上任，同學，很認真喔！直接跑到屏東，宣布這個屏東六塊厝車站等等可能什麼時候要興建，我要問的是為什麼高雄計畫又重新被拿出來討論？","容我講一下，在高鐵公司成立的時候，在興建這些高鐵站計畫的時候，2000年以前，1998年核定高鐵在臺灣西部有哪幾個站，當時的高雄市市長吳敦義因為會經過高雄車站附近，會拆到一些房子，所以高鐵當時只到左營站。在2010年的時候國民黨執政，當時正在做高雄鐵路地下化工程，路政司曾經有一個公文，我show給大家看，當時的交通部長毛治國、當時的交通部次長葉匡時，後來十年後還被我們韓院長請來高雄當副市長的葉匡時，他一輩子也沒有想到，當時他否定這個計畫、讓高鐵進入高雄車站共軌的這個計畫、沒有進一步研究高鐵有沒有辦法進入高雄車站的這個計畫，有一天會在擔任高雄市副市長時被拿出來修理。兩次機會，一個國民黨的市長、一個國民黨的部長，都沒有讓高鐵進入高雄車站，甚至延伸到屏東。如果這個政策是確定的，如果這個政策確定高鐵要進入高雄車站、要延伸到屏東，請問這十多年來鐵路地下化造成高雄交通黑暗期，再加上高鐵如果要進入高雄車站，再一次明挖或者是再一次用潛盾，對高雄地區造成的影響，誰該負責？請問我們要怎麼樣把它做好，可以降低被影響的高雄市民？"],["卓院長榮泰：我重點答復委員之後，再請部長說明。"],["李委員柏毅：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：過去一段時間，我們所了解的是整個在決定高鐵南伸的時候左營方案是之前的一個決定，但是之後地方上有很多不同的意見，包括左營方案的優劣性，以及現在的高雄車站，不是左營車站，是高雄車站，是相當大，過去在興建的時候就是為了高鐵而做的，所以現在有討論到用高鐵進到高雄車站的高雄方案，目前是這個樣子，細節的部分我請部長來回答。"],["李委員柏毅：好，部長，請你回應。"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，確實當時在2007年的時候，高鐵是要進到高雄車站的，當時是有這樣子的方案，但是在2010年的時候，像委員剛剛所說的，毛治國部長當時就覺得不可行，所以就是讓高鐵只有到……"],["李委員柏毅：不可行的原因說高鐵是BOT，跟臺鐵的延伸方案不一樣，隨便找一個理由啊！"],["陳部長世凱：是，所以當時就沒有延伸到高雄站，這是一個非常可惜的過程，因此當時高鐵就沒有進到高雄，到了現在大家在討論所謂延伸屏東的方案時就有兩個案子，一個是從左營走高屏二快，同樣的路廊直接到屏東，這是一個方案；另外一個方案就是回復到過去2007年當時所決定的高雄方案。第一個方案為什麼不可行？因為我們有找高鐵的原廠，也就是三菱重工來做過評估，他們評估的結論是不可行，有幾個原因，第一個，對於未來整個高鐵的整體轉運可能會有相當負面的影響；第二個，如果是從左營拉到屏東的話，車子在沒有足夠的機廠可以轉彎的狀況下，可能是倒退走的，倒著走到屏東，所以他們認為不可行。回到高雄方案，我剛剛必須要說的是，2007年確實我們有設定高雄方案，2010年雖然停止了，但是現在的高雄火車站，當時的設計就是要讓高鐵跟臺鐵一起進入車站，所以未來這個車站，我想委員應該很清楚，這個車站目前的建設是非常大的規模，上面還會有一個商業大樓、還會有一個飯店。"],["李委員柏毅：部長、同學，我要跟你講的是，我們現在如果再挖一次，對高雄市民需要一個交代……"],["陳部長世凱：我要跟委員報告……"],["李委員柏毅：為什麼當初在做鐵路地下化的時候沒有一併做，這個是誰做的決定？請說明清楚……"],["陳部長世凱：當時……"],["李委員柏毅：第二個，再次影響到高雄市民生活的時候，你要怎麼樣把這個傷害降到最低、影響降到最低？而這個都是補破網，補誰的破網？補當時2010年鐵路地下化的時候，就不應該沒有進入高雄車站的這個政策。"],["陳部長世凱：對於高雄市來說，如果當時在鐵路地下化的同時做高鐵延伸的話，其實是一次工，不用兩次工，委員也有秀出當時的文件，就是毛治國部長在當時做下這樣子的決定。確實在這十幾年的過程當中，我們看到高雄車站周邊的沒落也是一個很大的問題，我們看到高雄車站的運量在全臺灣目前已經排名到了第十一，大家的想像是臺北跟高雄應該是最大的兩站，目前高雄站已經退到了第十一名。"],["李委員柏毅：高雄車站要活絡，其實臺鐵在高雄做的每一個車站，它的這些區間車我們都建議可以加密，這個也建議部長……"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分我們會努力……"],["李委員柏毅：這個也建議部長可以來高雄……"],["陳部長世凱：另外，針對工程的部分不要造成大家的黑暗期，就是我們會大量用潛盾，不會用明挖，明挖會減少，會減到最低，也就是對於民眾的影響會最低。"],["李委員柏毅：就我目前看到的高雄計畫裡面，左營的明挖確實就影響到左營目前的崇德路，所以這個部分我們還要必須……"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我會跟委員來協商，看怎麼樣減少影響。"],["李委員柏毅：跟所有的市民朋友說明清楚。"],["陳部長世凱：好，另外我們會用半半施工的方式，也就是東半邊在施工的時候，左半邊通行；左半邊施工的時候，右半邊通行，讓它在半半施工的狀況下，對交通影響會降到最低。"],["李委員柏毅：同學，我真的對你比較好，我讓你回答很多，時間快不夠了。接下來……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我講一句話就好了。"],["李委員柏毅：好，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我到高雄的時候，有人就跟我提到如果十多年前這個案子實施的話，第一個，已經接近完工，而且預算不用這麼多，當場我回他說，為了國人整個高鐵的運輸，也為了高雄市的發展，為了以後的院長，如果我有可能，在地方和諧共識之後，我願意做一個決定，讓它儘早實施。"],["李委員柏毅：還有，為了當時錯誤的政策，你現在做的都是補破網，我們希望把影響到高雄的部分降低，我們不會去阻止其他城市的發展，但是有影響到高雄市民的部分，希望可以降到最低。第二個，可以召開公開的說明會跟市民朋友說明清楚。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們會舉辦。"],["李委員柏毅：接下來幾個小的啦，高雄方案進去之後，可能上千億，這個2億就好了。現在臺北車站進到高鐵第9車廂外面，直接走人行道，下手扶梯就會接到臺北捷運，我在8月的時候也會勘了高雄的高鐵，其實高雄捷運也都做好這個空間來準備了。高鐵目前的評估還有很多的顧慮，希望部長跟院長這邊也可以一併考量。","第三個，高雄現在的轉變非常地大，我秀一下最近的演唱會，包含火星人、艾爾頓強、ONE OK ROCK、Coldplay，最新的、今天公布的，BLACKPINK的Lisa也要來，還有現在高雄加上臺南的半導體製造業，TSMC的產值都已經超過新竹。我要告訴院長跟部長，高雄機場不需要幾百億的擴建，那個是幾百億的事情，高雄機場需要的是培養運量，把A350的飛機調來高雄，開始培養可以直飛歐、美或直飛澳洲的這些班機，要開始培養高雄機場的運量，有運量之後，這個機場才需要做更大的航廈興建等等，這個部分請部長簡單回應一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分我們會先爭取到一些區域的航班，讓區域的航班增加之後，對於長線的這個部分，轉運的客人、轉乘的客人就會多，當轉乘的客人多、轉機的客人多的時候，長線的包含飛澳洲、飛美洲的部分就會增加。"],["李委員柏毅：先爭取國航，可以安排一架A350來高雄。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們來努力。"],["李委員柏毅：捷運紫線在9月19日的時候，高雄市政府也已經送到交通部，我們進一步可能要做這些先行規劃以及可行性評估的核定，這個部分請交通部也加速規劃。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這部分我們會加速。"],["李委員柏毅：最後我只剩下1分鐘，要講臺灣跟中國房市的問題。我有看到央行總裁也在場，先恭喜，這一次央行的第七波信用管制應該會成功，應該會讓整個交易量停下來，應該房價在短期內也不會有再漲價的問題，但是我在這裡要提醒，從2021年到2024年一共34萬筆實價登錄的預售屋裡面，有多少是楊總裁認為必須要給教訓的？但是有多少是無辜要換屋，而有多少是家裡有繼承房產，出來外面買預售屋，他可能即將要面對多籌20%到30%交屋時的交屋款？有多少人也被楊總裁上了這一課？內政部沒有辦法給我答案，我相信央行也沒有辦法給我答案，只有到時候這些人被斷頭的時候，你才會知道答案，所以請正視這些人的問題，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第17號賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 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來有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢李委員好院長先跟你抱歉我們今天程序委員會 呃 行政院的預算再度被退回"},{"start":42.247,"end":61.577,"text":"但是在從7月16休會到今天正式可以在這邊再質詢院長其實這段時間柏毅在地方上也做了很多的努力包含跟行政院團隊做的多項協調我在這邊也要負責的跟我的選民來報告"},{"start":63.058,"end":83.121,"text":"新台17縣在去年度院長還沒有上任的時候國防部提出比原本多14億必須要高雄市政府來代差代鑒包含新建新的戰備跑道包含中正哨口等等這一些"},{"start":84.002,"end":93.082,"text":"那我在這個暑假期間那也拜託我們公共工程委員會陳金德主委以及李毅德副主委"},{"start":93.919,"end":117.371,"text":"很順利在9月5號跟9月18號的現刊分別解決了幾個問題那現在甚至國防部也允許高雄市政府把工建計畫不用重送用抽換的方式直接跟國防部這邊來抽換把14億裡面國防部需要的戰備跑到28億已經抽換完畢"},{"start":120.413,"end":142.111,"text":"那目前就等國防部這邊快速來送給行政院我們的目標還是期待在2026年這一條路能如期通車在這邊感謝行政院各部會的協調包含工程會跟高雄市政府還有國防部院長這個但是這個也是明年度的預算"},{"start":144.814,"end":154.949,"text":"有關我們需要代材代件的公共建設計畫,也就是我們的南段二期的幾個需求項目,9月23號已經"},{"start":158.052,"end":182.384,"text":"完成抽換 呈報行政院審議了9月23已經呈報了 謝謝部長你請回這個在過去其實我處理這條新台17縣處理了十幾年的沒有那麼簡單那感謝行政院的這個橫向的聯繫很快的協調好但是我們還是需要謝謝委員的關心讓我們可以跟地方政府一起合作第二個感謝院長本人"},{"start":183.226,"end":206.224,"text":"就是清華大學跟陽明交大要來高雄左營設分校的事情在教育部送到國發會審核的9億預算裡面原本少了一半經過院長親自了解之後這一筆預算也回復到9億在這邊也感謝院長但是這個還是需要明年度的預算在立法院來做實質的審核是的"},{"start":208.325,"end":236.794,"text":"這兩個預算在這邊感謝院長對於國家重點領域校際研教園區的這個支持高雄其實正在轉變高雄其實正在脫胎換骨高雄因為台積電加上AI還有種種的產業高雄其實正在轉變我們需要的是大量的建設但是在新任交通部長來之前前任交通部長其實有到我辦公室"},{"start":237.865,"end":252.326,"text":"希望可以溝通一個高雄方案也就是高鐵要延伸到屏東要不要經過高雄車站的這個方案2019年行政院蘇院長來到屏東"},{"start":253.387,"end":255.668,"text":"但是前部長到我辦公室的時候 鐵道局拿了"},{"start":277.418,"end":300.157,"text":"高雄方案說要淺遁要明挖我想要確認一下這件事情有沒有這一個高雄計畫目前我看到部長一上任同學很認真直接跑到屏東宣布這個屏東六塊處車站等等的可能什麼時候要興建我要問的是為什麼高雄計畫又重新被拿出來討論"},{"start":302.403,"end":329.702,"text":"容我講一下在高鐵公司成立的時候在做這些高鐵站計畫的時候2000年以前1998年合訂高鐵在臺灣西部有哪幾個站當時的高雄市市長吳敦義因為會經過高雄車站附近會拆到一些房子所以高鐵當時只到左營站"},{"start":330.834,"end":355.86,"text":"在2010年的時候國民黨執政當時正在做這個高雄的鐵路地下化的工程的時候陸正思曾經有一個公文我秀給大家看當時的交通部長毛志國當時的交通部次長葉匡石後來10年後還被我們韓院長請來高雄當副市長的葉匡石"},{"start":357.113,"end":385.085,"text":"他一輩子也沒有想到當時他否定這個計畫讓高鐵進入高雄車站供軌的這個計畫沒有進一步研究高鐵有沒有辦法進入高雄車站這個計畫有一天會在擔任高雄市副市長被拿出來修理兩次機會一個國民黨的市長一個國民黨的部長都沒有讓高鐵進入高雄車站甚至延伸到屏東"},{"start":386.581,"end":413.68,"text":"如果這個政策是確定的如果這個政策確定高鐵要進入高雄車站要延伸到屏東請問這10多年來鐵路地下化造成高雄交通黑暗期再加上高鐵如果要進入高雄車站再一次民挖或者是再一次用潛盾對高雄地區造成的影響誰該負責請問"},{"start":417.363,"end":433.492,"text":"我們要怎麼樣把它做好可以降低到影響高雄市民我重點答覆委員之後請部長來說明現在過去我們一段時間我們所了解的是左營方案是整個在決定高鐵南征的時候左營方案是"},{"start":434.312,"end":434.792,"text":"部長 請你回應"},{"start":461.181,"end":482.376,"text":"跟委員報告確實當時在2007年的時候高鐵是要進到高雄車站的當時是有這樣子的方案但是在2010年的時候像委員剛剛所說的由毛志國部長當時就覺得不可行不可行的原因說這個營運規劃這個公文慢慢幫我修一下"},{"start":484.754,"end":500.646,"text":"高鐵是BOT,台鐵跟台鐵的延伸方案不一樣,隨便找一個理由所以當時就沒有延伸到高雄站,這是一個非常可惜的過程,所以在當時我們的高鐵就沒有進到高雄"},{"start":501.527,"end":501.747,"text":"李柏毅議員"},{"start":524.111,"end":544.464,"text":"做過評估他們評估的結論是不可行幾個原因第一個對於未來的整個高鐵的整體的轉運可能會有相當負面的影響第二個如果是從左營拉到屏東的話車子沒有足夠的機場可以轉彎的狀況底下可能是倒退路倒著走到屏東所以他們認為不可行"},{"start":544.884,"end":571.072,"text":"那回到高雄方案我剛剛必須要說的是說2007年確實我們有設定高雄方案2010年雖然停止了但是我們的高雄車站現在的高雄火車站當時的設計就是要讓高鐵跟台鐵一起進入這個車站所以未來這個車站我想委員應該很清楚這個車站目前的建設是非常大的規模上面還會有一個商業大樓還會有一個飯店部長同學我跟你講的是"},{"start":572.247,"end":596.314,"text":"我們現在如果再挖一次對高雄市民需要一個交換為什麼你當初在做這個鐵路地下化的時候沒有一併做這個是誰做的決定請說明清楚第二個再次影響到高雄市民的生活的時候你要怎麼樣把這個傷害降到最低影響降到最低而這個都是補破網補誰的破網"},{"start":599.916,"end":624.665,"text":"當時2010年鐵路地下化的時候就不應該沒有進入高雄車站的這個政策是對於高雄市來說如果當時在鐵路地下化同時做高鐵的延伸的話其實是一次工不用兩次工那當時委員也有修出當時的文件就是毛志國部長當時做下這樣子的決定那確實在這十幾年的過程當中我們看到高雄車站周邊的沒落也是一個很大的問題"},{"start":625.385,"end":645.362,"text":"我們看到高雄車站的運量在全台灣目前已經排名到了第11大家的想像是臺北跟高雄應該是最大的兩站目前高雄站已經退到了第11名其實高雄車站要活絡齁其實臺鐵在高雄做的每一個車站它的區間的這些區間車其實我們都認為建議可以加密齁"},{"start":646.643,"end":666.242,"text":"這個部分我會努力另外針對工程的部分不要造成大家的黑暗期就是我們會大量用淺鈍不會用明蛙明蛙會減少會減到最低就我目前看到高雄計畫裡面左營的明蛙確實就影響到左營目前的崇德路所以這一個部分我們還要"},{"start":666.742,"end":666.842,"text":"接下來﹖"},{"start":687.117,"end":710.527,"text":"委員我講一句話就好了我到高雄的時候有人就跟我提到說如果10多年前這個案子實施的話第一個已經接近完工而且預算不用這麼多當場我回答說為了國人整個鐵道的高鐵的運輸也為了高雄市的發展為了以後的院長如果我有可能地方和諧共識之後我願意做一個決定讓他儘早實施"},{"start":710.947,"end":711.227,"text":"李柏毅議員"},{"start":737.38,"end":741.214,"text":"這個高雄方案進去之後可能上千億這個兩億就好了"},{"start":742.408,"end":769.137,"text":"現在臺北車站進到高鐵第9車廂外面直接下這個人行道首扶梯就會接到臺北捷運我在8月的時候也會勘了這個高雄的高鐵其實高雄捷運也都做好這個空間來準備了那高鐵目前的評估還有很多的顧慮希望部長跟院長這邊也一併可以做這個考量那第三個"},{"start":770.177,"end":798.562,"text":"高雄現在的轉變非常的大我來我秀一下這個演唱會最近的演唱會包含火星人包含艾爾頓牆包含One Ok Rock Coldplay最新的今天公布的Blackpink的Lisa也要來那這一些還有高雄現在加上台南的這個半導體的製造業TSMC的這個產值都已經超過新竹"},{"start":799.724,"end":828.232,"text":"我要告訴院長跟部長高雄機場不需要幾百億的擴建那個是幾百億的事情高雄機場需要的是培養運量把A350的飛機調來高雄開始培養可以直飛歐美或直飛澳洲的這些班機開始培養高雄機場的運量有運量之後這個機場才需要做更大的航廈的興建等等"},{"start":830.014,"end":831.115,"text":"先爭取國航,可以安排一架A350來高雄"},{"start":852.307,"end":879.632,"text":"那捷運紫縣也在9月19的時候高雄市政府已經送到交通部我們進一步可能要做這些先行規劃以及可能性評估的核定這個請交通部也加速規劃最後我只剩下一分鐘來講臺灣跟中國的房市的問題我有看到我們央行總裁也在場那先恭喜這一次央房的第7波信用管制應該會成功"},{"start":882.578,"end":893.544,"text":"應該會讓整個交易量停下來應該房價短期內也不會有再漲價的問題但是我在這裡要提醒2021年到2024年一共34萬實價登錄的預售屋裡面"},{"start":901.417,"end":930.788,"text":"有多少是楊總裁認為必須要給教訓的但是有多少是無辜要換屋有多少是家裡有繼承房產出來外面買預收屋他可能即將面對多籌20%到30%的交屋的時候的交屋款有多少人也被楊總裁上了這一課內政部沒有辦法給我答案我相信央行也沒有辦法給我答案"},{"start":931.502,"end":932.303,"text":"謝謝李柏毅委員質詢 謝謝卓院長的備詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:17:56 - 15:33:45","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154880"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:31:12","end_time":"2024-09-24T15:17:47+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154879","gazette":{"lineno":38,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（14時46分）主席，請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["謝委員龍介：院長，今天比較輕鬆一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：我來代表臺南市的農漁民送你一個東西，拜託你，希望你多多推廣我們臺南市的農漁產品。我跟你說，這只有賴清德有喝過，別人都沒喝過。","你試試看，只有賴清德在7年前有喝過。先吃個甜甜的。"],["卓院長榮泰：非常甜蜜。"],["謝委員龍介：這是臺南市山上野生的蜂蜜，很多蜂農跟農民、漁民因為景氣不好，希望院長你的高度可以多多為中南部這些農漁產品推廣，減少一些相殺的氣氛，多一些賺錢的商機，這是農漁民希望我在這裡替他們表達他們很無奈的心聲。","內閣是你在帶領，就像一個家庭一樣，人家說，家和萬事興，家不和萬世窮。如果你的閣員互相「定古」，互相「相殺」，其實受到傷害的是你。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯。"],["謝委員龍介：我不認為賴清德會刻意去說，一個已經當到總統的人不會刻意叫閣員修理閣員，他不是這種人，我們都很清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["謝委員龍介：第一，不是賴總統的意思。第二，也不是院長的意思，這樣是誰的意思？就是自己「三八裝賢慧」，我今天修理陳時中對我有什麼幫忙？凸顯你和賴清德有交情這樣嗎？沒有，他們這裡面誰的交情會比我們兩個和他還要好？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的交情比較好。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦，我們兩個一樣好，我們兩個和賴清德一樣好。除了副院長之外，可能沒有人比我們兩個和他的交情還要好，我說這樣你可能聽得懂，所以何必在皇帝的面前爭寵，這個意思是怎樣？總統有罵過他了，那你不是很囂張！我希望這個事情不要再發生了。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，這絕對還要再……"],["謝委員龍介：否則到最後會影響到你。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，一定要請內閣的閣員真的謹守自己的分寸，對政策清清楚楚嚴肅處理。"],["謝委員龍介：再來，看到上回我們的戰鬥機發生故障，飛行員跳機，對不對？這件事情你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["謝委員龍介：不幸中的大幸，飛行員跳機沒死的案例是很少的，結果跳機落海沒死，差一點被你們救死，到底是國防部、軍方還是海巡？港口、海面的巡弋到底是怎麼協調的？裝備檢查是誰在處理的？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這件事情在處理的當時，在最快的時間內都有掌握到他的狀況，我覺得海巡……"],["謝委員龍介：你們救不起來，還叫他跳下去又用游的，還好他剛好會游泳。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要尊重第一線指揮官跟工作弟兄的處理。"],["謝委員龍介：不要再講尊重了，你應付我這個也沒有意思嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我不是在應付，我有瞭解。"],["謝委員龍介：我剛才跟你講的，裝備檢查要怎麼落實，你知不知道？院長不一定知道，我們訓練一個飛行員到他成為合格的飛行員總共要花多少錢，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果要用經費來算是不得了，但是我覺得那是無價的。"],["謝委員龍介：實際的經費，以美軍給我們的標準，我們訓練一個合格的飛行員，合理差不多在550萬至600萬美金，等於我們花在他身上到他可以飛行，應該差不多在1億6,000萬至1億8,000萬，部長，我講的有沒有錯？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以飛行員被救起來的那個時候，大家心裡都覺得很安慰，所以我們尊重第一線工作跟指揮官的處理。"],["謝委員龍介：我們花這麼多錢訓練一個合格的飛行員，目的是什麼？就是要保護我們的國家，守護疆土。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["謝委員龍介：結果他落海救得「不答不七」，說實在，全世界都在看我們漏氣、笑話。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明一下。"],["謝委員龍介：部長，我請教你要怎麼挽救？這些裝備檢查要怎麼落實？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有6台直升機有夜間搜救能力，所以我們是有這個能力，但是委員說的那天直升機的吊籃吊下去之後……"],["謝委員龍介：纜繩就咬死了，你還說有！我怎麼會不知道有。"],["顧部長立雄：現在就是要……"],["謝委員龍介：「嗚？就像囡仔在笑的嗚！」。"],["顧部長立雄：當然這種情形是我們不願意看到的。"],["謝委員龍介：所以我剛才問你，以後對裝備的檢查要怎麼落實，部長？"],["顧部長立雄：裝備的妥善率真的是要檢討改進。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你講不要開玩笑，因為現在兩岸很緊張，我們每一個裝備進來都不簡單，都是百姓的血汗錢。你們如果有好好檢查維修，你看一下，那是因為剛好是夏天，你會不會游泳？"],["顧部長立雄：他跳傘下來之後……"],["謝委員龍介：如果是發生在12月天……"],["顧部長立雄：他跳傘下來有一個……"],["謝委員龍介：跳到海水裡面，都不是淹死的，而是失溫死的，大家互相勉勵啦！我是覺得這很重要啦，如果沒有落實裝備的檢查，這件事大家已經都看在眼裡，不好意思指責你啦！大家都很辛苦。"],["卓院長榮泰：感謝委員的提醒，這一定是未來要加強的，裝備妥善這個工作一定會加強下去，部長有跟你答應的。"],["謝委員龍介：好啦！院長……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員請你放心，我們要救人的時候，一定會確認他的狀況……"],["謝委員龍介：不要說放心，而是要讓臺灣的鄉親放心啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們的弟兄姐妹在這件事的處理上都很努力，很努力……"],["謝委員龍介：好啦！好啦！弟兄姊妹很多啦！現在再掉一次就很難看了，不用讓我放心，而是讓全民放心，好嗎？裝備檢查要落實，這我沒騙你們，隨時會再發生啦！對不對？因為我們有訓練，入侵中線越多，我們的訓練、應對就會越多，而這些越多，意外就會發生，如果再發生出勤飛出去，又拉不起來的狀況，那個時候就不好意思了，好嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：但是我們跟海巡的合作很密切，在這一次……"],["謝委員龍介：好、好、好。有關死刑這件事情，大法官很偉大，大法官在憲法上的解釋，什麼叫憲法的解釋？我們的憲法是不是五權憲法啊？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然現在是五權的體制。"],["謝委員龍介：大法官為什麼要侵犯立法院的權責？他是吃飽撐著？我在這裡公開宣告大法官的憲法解釋是違憲的，「食飯坩中央」，不聆聽百姓的聲音，說死刑合憲，這叫作不當的心理，他們的用意就是要說死刑是違憲的。你的好朋友──賴總統清德兄一上來就說這個要聽從民意。有夠厲害！我們坦白說，他們真的是菁英中的菁英，先跟你說死刑合憲，之後再來歪來歪去、歪來歪去的解釋，解釋地「不答不七」，就是要經過三審、11位法官都同意，如果有1個不同意就不能判，按照他的解釋沒有一個人會死的，所以臺灣今天已經進到實質廢除死刑，還在那邊裝什麼呢？「漚梨子裝蘋果，漚鹹魚裝成生魚片」，沒有用！這些大法官要面對人民的考驗，現在依照他們的解釋之後，就換到你們了，對這些37個死刑犯，當時的判定我們是依照什麼把他關進監獄裡？部長，你知道吧，是不是按照第一百四十八條第一項來收容他的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：監獄行刑法第一百四十八條第一項繼續收容。"],["謝委員龍介：收容有沒有期限？"],["鄭部長銘謙：收容是沒有期限。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有期限嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為他是待執行的……"],["謝委員龍介：對、對！收容是沒有期限，因為他要等執行嘛！這樣我們的總長可以按照大法官解釋提起非常上訴嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：37個死刑犯就是由最高檢察署來做一個審核。"],["謝委員龍介：然後最高法院如果把他撤銷、發回，會這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要看那個個案。"],["謝委員龍介：有可能嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有可能。"],["謝委員龍介：有嘛！再來，如果是這樣發回之後，這些人就會變成案件未確定的狀態，是嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個確定判決撤銷的話就會……"],["謝委員龍介：發回之後就是他的案件還沒確定，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：在審理中的案件。"],["謝委員龍介：好，這樣還可以收容他嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是要依照刑事訴訟法來做重新羈押的一個……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！重新羈押的未確定嘛！所以你們是說希望、建議……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以是要得到刑事訴訟羈押的制度……"],["謝委員龍介：你們有說喔！你們說建議法院繼續羈押他，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個檢察官會建議法院要繼續羈押。"],["謝委員龍介：法院如果不同意呢？院長，他們就放出來了欸！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以跟委員報告，這個是不是發回、發回會做什麼判決……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：裁定是一半一半啦！"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！所有的問題……你不要說一半一半，這37個人都是極兇惡之徒，但是在大法官的解釋就說應不至死，大法官就是這樣想的，可惡！被他們殺害的那六十幾個人的人權在哪裡？他說要三審所有11位法官都要同意、yes，才能夠判死刑，這違法耶！部長，如果要說人權兩公約，為什麼無期徒刑跟有期徒刑不用全部的法官都同意就能夠判無期徒刑？這樣有違憲嗎？對不對？為什麼獨獨死刑要全部的法官都同意？說實在的，為了要配合民進黨、貴黨要來挽救選票，不要忤逆84%的民意，解釋得「不答不七」，說實在的，法院如果非常上訴之後，確定了，那這37個裡面，當初有一致決的有幾個你知道嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要最高檢察署來調閱，我們會把卷送給……來做一個審核。"],["謝委員龍介：大法官解釋後你們沒去調？"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外這個一致決的話，這個要向……"],["謝委員龍介：大法官解釋後你們沒去調？"],["鄭部長銘謙：評議部……"],["謝委員龍介：大法官解釋後你們沒去調？還沒調嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在要陸續來進行。"],["謝委員龍介：還沒調，好。我聽最高法院，這37個裡面總共有幾個人是有一致決的，你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要調評議部來審核。"],["謝委員龍介：所以你也不知道就對了？這些人有的已經關二十幾年了，部長，已經關滿無期徒刑的徒刑了，現在如果再審，如果沒有5個法官都把他判死刑，他就可以申請假釋，部長是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依照現行的法律，無期徒刑假釋期要25年。"],["謝委員龍介：這些人就已經關25年了，你聽不懂嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，不是25年就可以假釋，只是達到假釋的一個執行的門檻而已。"],["謝委員龍介：對啦！就是他可以申請了嘛！對不對？依法他可以申請假釋。再來，37件裡面，這37個死刑犯有幾個人在三審時有言詞辯論的，你知道嗎？現在大法官說如果三審沒有言詞辯論，是不能判他死刑的喔！這37個有幾個有言詞辯論？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要調卷來做一個具體個案的審核。"],["謝委員龍介：他判完你不就要問了嗎？我跟你說，司法院那個廳長就公開說了，37個裡面只有5個人有言詞辯論，對不對？院長，這樣表示另外那32個不能判死刑耶！確定不能判死刑，這5個還不一定喔，還可以再訴喔！這樣不是很可惡！大法官是明知故犯耶，你要放過他？我跟你說，傷害到臺灣人民的感情太深了啦！如果要人權，你不就應該說從此以後有期徒刑、無期徒刑，所有的刑事的刑度全都要3個法官同意，你不就要這樣解釋，法律才有一致性、人權才有一致性，現在是怎樣，死刑犯有人權，有期徒刑的人就沒有人權？解釋成這樣耶！你聽得下去嗎？院長，你聽得下去嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我回答一個中性的問題，剝奪生命權跟剝奪自由權確實是不一樣，他們採取比較高的標準，是針對剝奪生命權的權利啦！但是這個是絕對值得社會再討論，剛才你說有5位，沒錯，101年以後……"],["謝委員龍介：為什麼解釋……"],["卓院長榮泰：依照訴訟法是要言詞辯論……"],["謝委員龍介：應該退到本院，由立法院來制定新的法律，而不是他說的算，所以我說他違憲啦！借荊州、霸荊州，現在是怎樣？大法官衣服都穿不下了，叫他重做一套，這麼大啊！跟你說這個有時候怨嘆啦！百姓實在是心在痛，對不對？現在再訴訟下去，我先跟你說，部長，遇到了啦！你也要面對啦！這些如果再訴訟，重判判無期徒刑，要釋放了，要帶他去哪裡釋放，你知道嗎？帶去司法院釋放，叫他先進去跟這些大法官道謝，這些死刑犯如果要釋放，把他放在司法院啦！叫他先去跟這些大法官道謝、感謝一下，但對這些被害者情何以堪。","再來，院長，能源政策你還是沒辦法改變，你們繼續要維持2025年非核家園，達到目標後才要來檢討，這樣讓臺灣延宕差不多三年多至四年，再度恢復核能會賠差不多九千億至一兆兩千億的預算，這是全民要共同付出的代價。你那天有去七股看一個太陽能光電場，有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["謝委員龍介：你去看的那個案場有合法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：那個案場算起來是比較順利的一個案場，但是還有一些接下來的程序要再完成，他當場有跟我說還有一些……"],["謝委員龍介：他有跟你說嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["謝委員龍介：還沒完全合法就對了，為什麼你會去看那一案場，你知道嗎？誰跟你介紹的？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是經濟部建議的幾個地方，我們決定要去這個案場。"],["謝委員龍介：經濟部！那間就是賴總統清德兄的好朋友。"],["卓院長榮泰：我去之前真的不知道。"],["謝委員龍介：事後知道就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我去之前真的不知道。"],["謝委員龍介：我知道你之前不知道，但是你去的時候，他們有跟你說，清德跟他們很好嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，沒有這樣說。"],["謝委員龍介：臺南只有你去的七股，七股的面積是110平方公里，已經有種電的，你知道有多少嗎？差不多15平方公里，等於說七股裡面就有15%在種電。北門叫做兩個太陽，七股叫做3個太陽。你那天去的時候，里長他們家的客廳41度，我11月快12月去的時候，里長他們家的客廳39度，3個太陽。光一個七股就已經達1GW了，我們臺南市已經超過4.2GW了，這樣還要再繼續做？在蔡英文總統任內只起訴一起案件，圖利91億，現在這些太陽能光電場的地底下有人埋爐碴，你知道嗎？你知道嗎？你不知道嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：埋什麼？"],["謝委員龍介：爐碴啦！一魚兩、三吃，為什麼？因為埋了，上面搭了太陽能板，合約和台電簽約20年，你們誰敢去挖？沒有人敢去挖，檢察官也不一定敢挖下去，挖下去如果沒有呢？對不對？因為現在都會打樁，樁都打好了。我如果有機會當市長，我會去挖，因為當時里長跟在地人來檢舉，就是說底下已經埋爐碴了，他爐碴埋好了，賺一筆錢後就賣給你，你來做光電，光電沒違法喔！你來做剛好就埋進去，光電就在爐碴上面。你上任以來到現在，光電的弊案這麼多，你還沒辦半件，我不知道有沒有在查，你們都跟我說有、有在查，院長，我希望你做一個總檢討，第一，要總量管制。第二，在申請的時候要有統一規範，你們經濟部說這是地方權責，地方權責就會官商勾結、接受性招待，有去賄賂的、有去打通關係的，就讓它通過，如果沒有的就擱置，就是這樣，臺南市的局長被關就是這樣來的。中央不制定明確嘛，你完全沒有一個明確規範，所以造成臺南市、地方的這些官員可以上下其手。"],["卓院長榮泰：我是不是可以報告委員兩句話就好？"],["謝委員龍介：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：第一，我那天去到現場第一句話就說，如果每場都這麼順遂，我就都不用來了，我知道有很多問題；第二，我覺得現在經濟部跟農業部預計要做的地方太多，要減少，沒必要的、困難的不要去做，要減少地方去做。"],["謝委員龍介：你不用跟我解釋這些，我瞭解。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我那天在現場說的話。"],["謝委員龍介：我瞭解你去看的意思就是……"],["卓院長榮泰：有剛才你所說的爐碴，我要求我們的單位要去主動調查。"],["謝委員龍介：會挑這場去，最主要就是因為要背書，不是針對他背書，就是說這場比較合法，我們坦白說。"],["卓院長榮泰：每場都這樣，我就不用去了，我知道有問題。"],["謝委員龍介：你知道有問題，為什麼不辦？問題是什麼，為什麼不辦了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我在現場有講四個方法，第一要透明，第二要簡化……"],["謝委員龍介：我說給你聽，你知不知道2000年時全世界的黑面琵鷺有幾隻，你知道嗎？剩差不多200隻，經過我們臺南這些做魚塭的，在收魚塭的時候都會留一些給黑面琵鷺吃，照理說魚塭收完要曬池才能再放，他沒有，他等到黑面琵鷺飛回去北方以後，才開始整理魚塭重新飼養，到去年、到今年年初總共6,988隻。"],["卓院長榮泰：非常好。"],["謝委員龍介：全世界比去年多355隻，來這裡過冬的統計起來，但是全世界多355隻，臺灣減少91隻，臺南市減少191隻，為什麼？因為電種得很多，現在屏東多好幾隻，濁水溪口多好幾隻，嘉義、臺南、高雄的黑面琵鷺減少，這就是生態已經受到影響。院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以那天我去現場看，我有跟他說沒必要做那麼多的面積，可以減少。"],["謝委員龍介：不是啦！你要做一個管制，你要有一個明確的說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！"],["謝委員龍介：你總量沒有管制，到最後黑面琵鷺等等這些候鳥都不再來的時候，就表示臺灣這塊土地已經沒有用了，你我都很清楚，我們為什麼不能疼惜這塊土地，對不對？","再來就是說，在這樣的過程，現在北門還有一場，有一個人一次申請50間公司要來做太陽能，都是能源公司，部長，你知道嗎？你是經濟部的次長，你知道嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：經濟部。"],["謝委員龍介：不知道喔？一次申請48間公司要來做太陽能，像雲豹公司申請18間子公司，五天公司被起訴1間、申請9間，現在這個申請四十幾間是要怎麼樣？是要逃稅還是要洗錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，會後我請次長跟委員請教，你再將這個資料提供，我們馬上來處理。"],["謝委員龍介：媒體都有報導了，在北門，你們雲嘉南風管處的處長也說不宜再開發了，所以我才跟你說要總量管制，要怎麼管制，你們專業的去考慮，我不會去介入，我不會說我家這裡不要用，我不會這樣，要全面去檢討，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我那天在現場就已經說到這個重點。"],["謝委員龍介：你去七股，結果你沒有去後壁庄。手指頭夾到每隻都會痛，我請教你，無論是住在北部、住在南部、住在中部，都是你的子民，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：都是國家的主人。"],["謝委員龍介：淹水的時候，你們說50公分要補助，賴總統清德兄說：過去30年做不好，我3年就做好了，各位臺南鄉親，從今天開始，我們臺南市不會再淹水了。結果還是每年都淹，後壁……"],["卓院長榮泰：面積有減少。"],["謝委員龍介：面積減少，淹水淹比較高，你知道嗎？關於後壁區我在今年8月有去控告，我不知道你們有沒有辦？地檢署有沒有辦？照理說不必淹水，結果是怎麼樣？堤防潰堤，崩塌了差不多20公尺，潰堤了！"],["陳次長正祺：沒有潰堤啦，那是溢流、滿過去。"],["謝委員龍介：潰堤啦！滿過去？"],["卓院長榮泰：是說八掌溪那件事，對不對？"],["陳次長正祺：是，那是滿過去。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，溢堤啦，那是溢堤。"],["謝委員龍介：什麼溢堤，溢堤歸溢堤啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長跟你說明已經有……"],["謝委員龍介：潰堤跟溢堤我會看不懂？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這部分臺南地檢署已經分案偵辦中。"],["謝委員龍介：這樣就好了，對不對？潰堤你跟我說溢堤，次長，你有去看嗎？現在崩塌之後大家怎樣說呢？所以你是經濟部的嘛？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["謝委員龍介：他說這不是經濟部做的！不是經濟部就是臺南市政府做的？臺南市政府說這不是我們做的！這樣是水利會做的？水利會說也不是我們做的！大家都推得一乾二淨，所以我才要去告，讓檢察官查看看是誰做的！哪有用水泥建造堤防沒有綁鋼筋，沒有綁鋼筋耶！我問你，下個月再下大雨會再潰堤嗎？一定會再潰堤！他現在修補這塊有綁鋼筋，這20公尺有綁，但前後沒綁，這樣要怎麼辦？一天到晚跟我說這些，對不對？你也要去看一下！部長，檢察官有在查了吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["謝委員龍介：要還鄉親一個……院長，我告訴你，整個村莊剛好淹150公分，所以要跟市長要1,200個便當，市長說什麼？震怒啦！活動中心只有60個，為什麼要1,200個便當？他不知道說一千多個都淹水了，他們家的廚房都淹水了、都不能出外買便當！情況是這樣，你知道嗎？你也沒去看。我想要跟院長拜託一下，多幫忙這些災民──150公分的災民，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：八掌溪那個堤防我有去看，我知道那個情形，現在臺南地檢署已經分案，我們就希望儘速查辦清楚。"],["謝委員龍介：那補助呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：補助已經有……"],["謝委員龍介：他們就照50公分的補助，你聽不懂嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：還有欠缺的地方我想由經濟部再去瞭解。"],["謝委員龍介：你有要瞭解嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：我們會跟委員報告。"],["卓院長榮泰：趕快去跟委員請教。"],["謝委員龍介：好。"],["主席：謝謝謝龍介委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第16位李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 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他們希望你替我們台南市的農業產品多多推廣"},{"start":52.864,"end":55.645,"text":"這我告訴你,這只是熱情點,不要喝過,別人都不要喝過請後面"},{"start":87.262,"end":87.902,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":132.532,"end":146.795,"text":"非常甜蜜這是台南市山頂野生的番蜜真的烹飪﹑農民﹑肥民經期不好希望議長你的關討﹐可以多多為中南部﹐這些農業產品﹐推廣﹐選一些﹐上色的氣氛"},{"start":159.619,"end":168.141,"text":"加一段時間的詳細這都是委員希望我在這裡提供表達他們真無奈的心聲蕊哥啊是你在打捏像一個家庭一樣人家說家合辦事興啦家不合辦事情"},{"start":192.028,"end":209.776,"text":"如果你的個案﹐互相定顧﹐互相凶殺﹐其實﹐傷害的是你沒有錯我沒有認為若清廷會勸他去說﹐這個做總統﹐他做到總統就對﹐他不會勸他叫這個個案﹐修理這個個案﹐他不是這種人是這我們很清楚對第一﹐不是做總統的意思"},{"start":224.04,"end":225.121,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":249.724,"end":266.432,"text":"沒有啦,我們倆的背後,我們倆的寒暖情在背後啦除了你們副委長以外,可能沒有人比我們倆的寒暖情好我講的你可能聽得懂啦所以何必在那裡,在鳳堤民燈前,在清唱意思是什麼?總統有感冒過,你不很清"},{"start":274.431,"end":287.281,"text":"我希望這件事不要再發生了是 是 這絕對要再發生這就在高鐵 會影響到你呢對 對這一定要請到內閣的國安 能夠真的謹修自己這個分寸對政策清清楚楚的處理我們的戰鬥機 發生各種非英文挑機對不對 這件事你知道嗎是"},{"start":304.244,"end":325.281,"text":"不幸當時大廈的飛行員跳機不適是有救救捏結果落海 跳機不適被你們救死了到底是國防部軍方還是海巡 光靠海面的巡邏到底是怎麼協調的啦總比檢查是怎麼處理的"},{"start":330.794,"end":344.017,"text":"委員報告,這件事在處理的那些東西,最快的時間來都有僵硬,就是他的狀況,我是覺得我愛想...我們要尊重第一層,機會高,跟工作的,這個...沒有啦,不要再尊重了啦,你說我應付這個也沒意思嘛,我跟你說,總比的檢查要怎麼落實啊?"},{"start":355.848,"end":370.32,"text":"你不一定知道,我們訓練一個肥胸丸,到他成為一個合計的肥胸丸,我們都要花多少錢?這要用經費來算,不得了,但是我覺得那是有價的。實際的經費,以美軍給我們的標準,我們訓練一個合計的肥胸丸,合理說差不多在那550萬、780萬的美金。等於說我們開啟他的新股定價,到他可以買。"},{"start":386.583,"end":406.673,"text":"應該是差不多在那1億6千萬至1億8千萬 不然我講這樣說不對所以會議員救起來的時候 大家心裡都覺得很安慰都覺得很安慰 所以我們尊重第一線 工作我們開這麼多錢去訓練一個合計的會議員目的是什麼是要保護我們的國家嘛 修復經濟嘛結果他下去 救到不得不遲"},{"start":414.827,"end":438.675,"text":"那是來講全國際都是給我們浪費的,笑話的這補兌有說明一下嗎?補兌我請教你,要怎麼挽救?就是這些裝備、警察要怎麼落實?我們有六台直升機有夜間搜救的能力,所以我們的這個能力是有,但是委員講的就是說"},{"start":439.83,"end":444.514,"text":"所以我剛才在跟你說醫療對裝備檢測要怎麼落實對不對對,裝備的妥善率這真的是要減少改進"},{"start":467.216,"end":487.913,"text":"我告訴你不要關起來 因為現在中華很緊張嘛我們每一個裝逼在來都不簡單 都被審判過多次嘛你如果好好檢查 維修你看看那是大老人 你要收罪嗎 你覺得要收罪那老人在12月聽就對了"},{"start":490.822,"end":501.487,"text":"他在跳繩後有一個環在裡面的土地海水不是陰溼的,都是熄溫溼的大家互相勉勵,我是覺得這很重要總比的檢測如果沒有落實這件事已經大家都看在眼裡了,潘石居自己指責"},{"start":511.295,"end":522.344,"text":"委員請你放心,我們在救人的時候,一定要看人民的狀況放心,要給台灣的鄉親放心啦我們的弟兄姊妹在這裡處理很努力現在又落在一邊,很難看啦不用我放心,給專民放心好不好"},{"start":540.004,"end":544.968,"text":"總比檢測要落實這我沒有陪你隨時會發生因為我們有訓練"},{"start":551.365,"end":572.039,"text":"侵入中選入席,我們的訓練領隊就入席入席,議會就發聲,再發聲,再敲鈴,再背又拉不起來那個時候就抱歉了,好不好?但是這個,我們跟海巡的合作不是這麼密切啦,這邊...私刑這個事情啦齁,來法官很偉大的來法官,憤怨的解說"},{"start":581.98,"end":596.112,"text":"什麼叫做憲法的解釋我們的憲法是不是柯款憲法啊 議長當然現在是柯款的體制但是我現在想要侵犯立法院的規則在18小時內我們在這裡公開"},{"start":607.148,"end":618.513,"text":"施行合憲這叫作不動的心理啦因落中就是要說施行是危險的把你的好朋友 老總統請到那裡一起來說這要聽民意"},{"start":635.51,"end":658.67,"text":"有狗狗 他們真的是經營中的經營 但坦白說先跟你說施行 合憲 後來改水外來外去 外出外來外去改水不搭不清就要三星十月的福光都同意 一個沒同意不能放 按照他的改水 沒一個會死"},{"start":661.243,"end":672.748,"text":"所以臺灣今天已經入侵到1111 輝圖私刑臺灣今天已經入侵到1111 輝圖私刑臺灣今天已經入侵到1111 輝圖私刑臺灣今天已經入侵到1111 輝圖私刑臺灣今天已經入侵到1111 輝圖私刑"},{"start":691.648,"end":707.038,"text":"施政法律148條第1項繼續收容收容有沒有期限收容是沒有期限沒有期限嘛因為它是待執行的執行的對對對 收容是沒有因為要短時間嘛好不好那這樣"},{"start":716.062,"end":720.605,"text":"這個37的死刑犯就是由最高檢察署來做一個審核這個要看那個個案這個有可能"},{"start":745.22,"end":746.481,"text":"發言委員：謝龍介"},{"start":772.591,"end":773.111,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":796.874,"end":808.683,"text":"議員報告,這是不是發回,發回會做什麼破罪,裁定一半一半所謂的問題,沒有啦,你不要說一半一半這30...這些人都是極凶惡之徒但是在大法國的改正就說他們不地勢大法國就是這樣想的"},{"start":821.297,"end":832.701,"text":"兵殺害了那六十幾個人的人權在哪裡?他說什麼?就要三十五十一的法官都中動議YES!可以破死人這是違反的沒有對嗎?如果要說人權你能說什麼?"},{"start":843.117,"end":851.08,"text":"如果有什麼不去投票和有去投票 不用宣佈的法官都同意 就可以破不去投票這樣危險嗎 對不對 為什麼独特私營的宣佈法官都同意這實在說 為了要配合民進黨 整黨要來挽救選票 不可以誣蔑84%的民意 解說又不達不清"},{"start":873.174,"end":879.42,"text":"一來講的齁 歡迎啦 若是非常上手之後啦 確定啦 確定啦齁這37個裡面 當期是有一定割的 有一定割的有幾個 你知不知道 保證"},{"start":894.446,"end":901.331,"text":"這個要最高檢察署來調閱那個我們會把卷送給最高檢察來做一個審核這個一致決的話這個要向平益部現在要陸續的進行我聽那個最高法院"},{"start":924.526,"end":938.871,"text":"這37人當中有幾個人是有異地割的你知不知道這要調評一部來審查所以你若不知道就對了這些人已經有20幾年了,沒錯嗎?20幾年,已經拐摸無機都行的都行"},{"start":951.258,"end":969.944,"text":"現在人家若沒有財神若沒有國會法官都給他破死刑他這次可以申請假刑 普通人是不是這樣這個依照現行的法律那個無期徒刑要假釋其實要25年25年跟委員報告不是25年就可以假釋只是達到假釋的一個對啦 那就是他可以申請對不對"},{"start":977.339,"end":991.867,"text":"議法﹚他可以申請加息﹚再來﹚37條內﹚這37個施行案﹚有幾個人﹚在3省有原書辯論的你知不知道?你現在大法廣告喔﹚如果3省沒原書辯論你是不是不能破他的施行喔?這37個有幾個﹚有原書辯論的?"},{"start":1001.054,"end":1009.356,"text":"這個要有調卷來做一個具體的個案的一個宣言37個裡面只有5個人有言詞辯論阿對不對 一定這樣 表示另外那30個人不能破事捏肯定不能破事 還不一定喔還可以再鎖喔這樣不好喔 阿這台火鍋他在賣 賣低過分捏"},{"start":1033.356,"end":1059.516,"text":"你會不會放過他?這我告訴你 傷害了台灣人民的感情最深的如果要領權 你們就應該說 最初以後有機都行 無機都行 所有的行事 行動 都要三個法官同意你們就要這樣解釋 法律不夠一地情 領權不夠一地情現在為什麼?"},{"start":1059.516,"end":1061.538,"text":"需要法律領權 有機行就沒有領權"},{"start":1064.008,"end":1074.255,"text":"我回答一個中性的問題啦齁不斷拾命款跟不斷主流款其實是不一樣的因為差數比較高的標準是針對不斷拾命款的這個管理啦但是這個是特地黨的社會過討論剛才你說有五位沒問題一百多年以後他才有所想法是要議員主辯論議員該替代婚姻"},{"start":1092.11,"end":1098.335,"text":"由你發言：你製定新的法律：不是他講的尊聖啦：所以我講他違憲啦做經濟 罷經濟 現在是怎樣?大法官都請他三口都請不下去 叫他訂做一宿 要大喔?你講這個有人生喔 萬壇阿 百姓是要 心在痛啦 對不對"},{"start":1121.038,"end":1135.291,"text":"你現在再說下去,我現在先跟你說,沒錯嗎?答對了啦,你還要面對啦?這次再說下去就對了啦,頂撥普普基督教徒,要釋放啦你坐在那裡把他綁,你知道嗎?坐在那裡把他綁,叫他先在那裡把大法關閉就行了這是私刑犯啦,如果要綁啦,把他綁成死犯啦"},{"start":1148.137,"end":1155.923,"text":"叫他先去把這台大和國的世代之下滾掉一下對這比海這情何以堪啊好 來反正 因為這樣臨環政策還沒辦法改變我們繼續要維持李鴻 李柯尼 揮霍齡的家庭每個人都不要了 還要來檢討這樣讓我們台灣就對了齁"},{"start":1179.073,"end":1192.86,"text":"沿途差不多3年多至4年的再度恢復婚姻﹐會料差不多9千億至1.2千億的無損這是專門要共同付出的代價那麼你那一天有去Chicco﹐看一個太陽營的場﹐有沒有﹐有你去看那張有沒有合法"},{"start":1207.95,"end":1220.576,"text":"那張算起來是比較順利的一張但是還有一些耍弱的延遲要再完成他當場有跟我說他還有一些...他有跟你說嗎?對阿伯完全學我就對了你為什麼去看那張你怎麼知道?誰跟你介紹的?這是經濟部上幾個地方來的,我經常要去那個地方經濟部?那間就是老總統清廳的好朋友"},{"start":1238.834,"end":1250.201,"text":"我去晉晉真的不知道我去晉晉真的不知道我知道你晉晉不知道 但是你去的時候 人家有跟你說 穿著很好嗎沒有這樣說我台南喔 台南跟你去的七角七角的面積是1百10平方公里啦已經有晉天了 你知不知道多少差不多15平方公里 等於說一個七角裡面有15%的晉天"},{"start":1269.575,"end":1285.18,"text":"辦門叫這兩個太陽七個叫這三個太陽你去一天的時間你六人道的客廳四十一度了我十二月要十二月起的時候你六人道的客廳三十九度了三個太陽一個七個已經達到超過一個幾個月我們台南市已經超過四點二幾個月你還要做"},{"start":1299.875,"end":1313.305,"text":"要再做在川元文總統的臨來 給我起訴一件道理91頁現主席 這裡的太陽明發電廠會停會停 有人帶路照你敢知道你敢知道你不知道啦 帶什麼路照 爐渣啦"},{"start":1329.441,"end":1354.835,"text":"一餘兩三次啊啊為什麼?因為台了啊 頂頭太空營大了啊合約簽20年 跟台東的簽20年 你們什麼人敢去跟他合?沒有人敢去跟他合?檢察官也不一定跟他合了耶合了也沒有耶 對不對?因為我都說拆了嘛 拆了才好啊我如果有機會做市長 我會跟他合"},{"start":1356.923,"end":1369.029,"text":"因為同期時 立法會跟人們在地來檢估就是說 會不會已經帶邏輯了他邏輯帶好了 賺一條錢 給我賣你你來做光電 光電不違法喔你來做 那給我帶了 光電就在邏輯上面你起來的年齡 到現在 光電的幣額這麼多你還沒有辦法走"},{"start":1385.131,"end":1386.532,"text":"我希望你做一個重檢討 第一要重量關節"},{"start":1399.153,"end":1418.957,"text":"對你 就是說在你申請的時候 要通一規範啦你經濟部不是嗎 地方譴責 地方譴責就會過重糾結了接受性招待啦 有來偶世的 有來怕私下樓的 我把你通過 如果沒有的 我把你擱置 是這樣 第11屆的局長會議關 是這樣來的你中間沒有要制定一個命檻嘛 你完全沒有做命檻去規範"},{"start":1427.492,"end":1442.102,"text":"所以責勝 台南市 地方的官員 會當上下機首我先可以報告 委員兩句話就好我一天去現場 我第一句說 如果每天都存在這麼的損失 我都不用來了 我知道有很多問題第二 我覺得說"},{"start":1444.985,"end":1458.958,"text":"現在經濟報告由龍介報告所寬的暗算的稍看 要去檢討不必要的 困難的不要去做 檢討的地方要去做我了解你去看藝術有剛才你說的爐渣 我要求現在我們在電視台主動調查你去看藝術 會去經濟中"},{"start":1467.071,"end":1477.658,"text":"最主要的是因為 要給他背書 不是針對他背書啦 就是說這張被告合法啦 咱們坦白講啊啊你這樣我就不用去寫了 我知道有問題啊你知道有問題為什麼不辦啊 問題是什麼不辦啊我告訴你聽啦 你敢知道兩千 兩千年以前啊"},{"start":1491.857,"end":1505.384,"text":"全世界黑麵皮肉有幾隻你知不知道全台灣有兩百隻經過我們台南這裡做雲吶在燒雲吶的時候都流一瓦給黑麵皮吃照你講雲吶燒完我會拍拼我還要再拼喔他沒有 他等黑麵皮皮回去爆香之後他才開始整理雲吶還要定期到九年到今年 年初了"},{"start":1522.54,"end":1543.67,"text":"隆重辣青九百八十八隻非常好 幾年 比幾年就對了 計三百五十五隻 全世界啦就來規定一下 統計起來但是 全世界計三百五十五隻台灣 減九十一隻台南市 減一百九十一隻為什麼 因為電競有夠多現在屏東 計九十六隻"},{"start":1551.923,"end":1557.187,"text":"這就是生態已經去受到影響你得做一個關節 你得一個名牌的算命嘛"},{"start":1573.575,"end":1581.763,"text":"你從來沒有關閉到要當歐美納杯﹐這個訊號不再來的時候﹐就是表示台灣這塊土地已經倒下去了﹐你看我們都很清楚﹐我們為什麼不能停下來這塊土地﹐對不對﹐再來就是說﹐在這樣的過程﹐我們現在﹐還有一點﹐"},{"start":1599.366,"end":1599.866,"text":"發言委員：謝龍介"},{"start":1630.48,"end":1656.558,"text":"還是要施政?主席 委員 我請署長 請委員請講 你在總結的資料 我馬上來處理每一套都有報啦嘛 齁 在辦盲啊 你們的分家人 方官署的署長 也說不宜再開發了啦所以我才跟你說 總量管制 要怎麼管制 人轉行 人去靠路 我不可以跟你介入啦 我不會說 欸 我到這裡不用用了 我不會這樣啦"},{"start":1658.752,"end":1667.72,"text":"專門去檢討嘛對不對是 我在現場我就已經說了這個重點你去檢討結果你沒有去後面爭我請教你從頭到尾幾幾天無論大里北大里南大里東都是你的住民是不是這樣都是國家的住人淹水的時候您說50公分要補助"},{"start":1683.168,"end":1710.191,"text":"老總統聖殿下說過去30年做不完事我30年做好了各位台南鄉親對今天開始我們台南市不會再喝水了我還是特地再喝?民宿有減酒啦後面民宿減酒喝水喝得更高你知不知道後面哭啦我一經年的被委我已經控告了我不知道你們有辦了沒有地檢署有辦了沒有"},{"start":1712.133,"end":1718.039,"text":"叫你說不用喝水,那叫什麼?提供綁花綁花那是議題反正議題啦"},{"start":1732.923,"end":1735.044,"text":"這不是經濟沒做的"},{"start":1762.486,"end":1784.089,"text":"阿不是經濟報告阿 台南市政府做 台南市政府 阿這不是我做的阿這樣主委會做的 主委會說也不是我做的大家都拿到你那裡 所以我還去找阿 跟他觀察看誰會做的啦那後裔的人們控體署沒白提阿 沒白提阿勒 我問你"},{"start":1785.234,"end":1786.716,"text":"一百五公分一百五十公分"},{"start":1811.561,"end":1814.062,"text":"巴掌心的帖文我給你看"},{"start":1862.28,"end":1863.04,"text":"謝謝謝龍介委員的質詢謝謝卓院長的備詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:46:35 - 15:17:47","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154879"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:16:03","end_time":"2024-09-24T14:46:28+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154878","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（14時30分）謝謝院長，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：院長好。院長，剛剛在12點左右，立法院的程序委員會又將114年度的中央政府總預算退回程序委員會，我想請教就是說，其實在今年8月份的時候，總統有到彰化去訪視地方的社福機構，當時國民黨執政的彰化縣長王惠美王縣長，也在現場跟賴總統提出彰化縣有很多社福機構需要中央的幫忙，尤其有5棟的社福大樓需要中央儘速核撥，當場賴總統也有答應，就是只要立法院的預算通過之後，應該中央的預算就可以很快速會撥到地方來。現在我們看到中央政府的總預算又被退回程序委員會，我覺得這應該是有史以來第一次，我當了立委第三屆，我也是第一次碰到在預算會期，應該是要審預算的，結果是沒有預算可以審。","我想請教院長，針對這件事，未來影響的不只是執政，不是只有影響民進黨，影響的是全臺灣人民，我們看到不只是社福的預算受到影響，還有教育的預算，然後我們也看到要給學子的住宿補貼，還有中低收入戶的補貼，影響的層面真的非常的大，國防預算也會受到影響，請教院長，針對這件事，未來行政院要怎麼因應？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。我還是誠摯的希望大家能夠心平氣和、理性的去看待整部的預算，在預算裡面縱然它有很多的人事跟一般的法定支出，我們還是可以依法來執行，但是重點在於一些新增的業務，如果預算沒有通過，是沒有辦法實施的。那我願意很誠意的說明就是，無論是中央定的任何政策，或是未來跟地方要合作的任何預算，包括我們一般性的補助以及統籌補助等等，我都認為這個是中央預算的一個整體，不會割裂說是因為地方的，我們就比較不在意，因為是中央的，我們就比較著急，不會，是整個一體，希望用中央整筆總預算的完整性，交付給大院來審議。所以在目前這個程序而言，我仍然是希望程序委員會能夠儘快的付委實質審查，審查的過程當中，我們據理說明清楚，那麼有任何刪減的意見，大家可以來好好地討論，我們都予以尊重。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，我也認為中央政府總預算影響的是全臺灣人民，就以我是區域立委來講，我當然是希望中央補助地方的經費能夠儘速、快速的到達，當然如果說中央的預算在立法院，在第一關程序委員會就被擋掉了，那中央的這個挹注就很難挹注到地方，尤其是挹注地方的建設，所以我們也希望不論是在野黨所有的立委，應該也要去審思，因為這個影響的是全臺灣人民，尤其是在地方政府，地方政府國民黨執政的縣市更多，所以這個影響的層面真的非常的廣，我們也希望所有的立委同事應該針對這一部分好好的去思考一下。","接下來我想請教院長，因為我們在網路上面時常會看到名人詐騙，就是在網路上面他可能投資就可以賺滿多錢，很多人因為看到這樣的廣告後就做了這樣的投資。我們也看到數發部可能在最近有打詐，就是行政院這邊相關部會也都很認真在做打詐的部分。","我想請教就是說，如果在網路上有看到可能疑似是詐騙的廣告，有說24小時會下架。未來刊登這個廣告是要用實名制，我想請教的就是，目前是不是還有類似名人的廣告，直接在網路上廣告，就是鼓勵民眾去做投資的狀況，我們24小時下架，然後又用實名制在刊登廣告，這個成效到底是怎樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不敢否認還是有，過去我們對於這些平台毫無力道可以作為，在打詐新法通過之後，我們至少要求它下架，下架就可以納管，納管就必須有責任，我們就有源頭可以追溯，所以目前是循這個管道跟方式來。對於若干利用名人詐欺的狀況，我們已經破獲了不少，也請一些受害的名人出來現身說法，但是這個事情還是會出現。我們現在要求的就是，出現之後用最短的速度讓它能夠下架，同時追溯到源頭，所以我們現在有一個打詐的平台等等，不管是165的打詐中心，或是這個平台都提供了這樣的管道跟方式。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，那確實是24小時下架嗎？如果發現在網路上有這樣一個詐騙的廣告。"],["卓院長榮泰：請次長來說明一下。"],["林次長宜敬：目前我們通知Facebook或者是LINE，通常都會在24小時之內下架，委員所提到24小時下架的這個指的應該是我們最近數發部公布的打詐專法子法，我們在裡面有規定說，如果我們通知了這些網路平台，他們在24小時之內沒有下架的話，我們會對它處以行政處罰，但是那是最後的手段。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["林次長宜敬：到目前為止，看來就是說，我們通知Facebook跟LINE的話，像這種平台，他們都會在24小時之內下架。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們也希望刊登廣告應該也要用實名制，要不然其實詐騙的廣告真的非常多，而且影響受騙的人真的非常地廣，所以我們希望打詐的這部分，我們應該還要再努力，好不好？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：院長，接下來我要再請教，我在5月的時候也質詢卓院長有關我們彰化的地方建設，我提到了兩個建設，一個是彰化的鐵路高架，一個是臺中捷運綠線延伸到彰化。當時交通部李前部長也有特別提到，就是預計在今年年底整個綜合規劃應該會完成。我想請教，因為從5月到現在又經過了差不多4個月的時間，因為民眾引頸期盼彰化非常重要的軌道建設，這兩個軌道建設已經講了非常久，而且在今年我已經第三次質詢我們的院長，一個是第1會期第一次是質詢我們的陳建仁院長，5月份我是質詢卓院長，這一次我還是再次地質詢卓院長跟我們的陳部長。","我想請教的就是說，針對彰化非常重要的這兩個軌道建設，它的進度如何？再來就是說，地方可能它自己也要有一些分擔，地方可能會提出分擔的金額，這個預算可能會有點多，捷運綠線的話，可能要分擔到67億，鐵路高架可能就是103億左右，其實對地方政府來講，這個負擔真的非常地重，所以我想請教，如果中央政府跟地方政府可以同心一起的話，我認為卓院長你也認為這個軌道建設對地方來講真的是非常重要，不論是運輸或者是觀光，對地方政府整體的發展真的非常重要，所以我想再次地請卓院長針對我們彰化的這兩個軌道建設，未來中央跟地方要如何來合作？如果是在年底綜合規劃可以完成的話，如何來加速我們鐵路高架的進行？"],["卓院長榮泰：捷運綠線到彰化以及鐵路高架化的最新進度，陳部長應該有所掌握，請他跟委員報告。"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，鐵路高架化的部分目前已經進入綜合規劃的階段，環評也正在進行當中，針對花壇及二水這兩個基地，目前設定好是雙基地，跟地方政府也都協商好，所以這個部分是沒有問題。加速進行的部分，委員也一直在關心，所以交通部這邊會竭盡所能的來協助地方政府，在針對這個綜合規劃的部分，我們儘量儘快來加速，這個部分是沒有問題，我們儘快來推動，如果中間還有什麼疑義的話，包含經費的部分，其實我們跟地方會持續來協商，這個沒有問題，到時候會拜託委員也幫忙溝通。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["陳部長世凱：另外，針對捷運的部分，其實捷運的綠線目前是由臺中市政府在做綜合規劃的階段，這個部分是沒有問題，但是就是彰化的這一段，比較往南的這一段，因為牽涉到彰東的都市計畫，我們希望縣政府在都市計畫的部分能夠具體一點，讓我們知道整個路線到時候的落站點會是在哪裡，因為這個還要都市計畫，所以土地的規劃還沒有確定，這個部分還在等彰化縣政府，不過這個部分交通部也會出面來協助臺中市政府與彰化縣政府之間的溝通，我知道委員很關心，地方也很期待。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["陳部長世凱：所以這個部分我們會儘量來推動它的加速計畫。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。我要再次提，就是這兩個軌道建設真的是非常非常久，從我當議員到現在已經20年的時間，這兩個從一開始就在講，彰化要鐵路高架，臺中捷運綠線要到彰化來，結果到現在還在綜合規劃，我不知道未來我要怎麼跟我這個地區的民眾講經過幾年之後還在綜合規劃，所以我希望，卓院長，我也覺得你是一個行動派的院長，彰化的這個軌道建設對彰化整個都市的發展非常非常的重要，而且彰化是六都以外最大、人口最多的一個地方，彰化可不可以發展攸關於這兩個軌道建設，如果可以做好的話，其實可以帶動整個彰化都市的成長，彰化也是中小企業非常多的地方，整個中部地區，中小企業最多也是在彰化，所以我希望卓院長關愛的眼神是不是可以投注在彰化多一點，這兩個軌道建設如果今年年底綜合規劃可以完成，之後是不是可以中央與地方合作，加速推動這兩個軌道建設的進行？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們本於均衡臺灣的理念，各地的重大建設都是非常重要的，剛剛陳部長所說的，希望地方政府和我們合作，包括這個有三個站體，它周邊的開發，以及財務的計畫、經費的分擔等等，都希望地方政府能夠儘速的有一個說法及規劃出來，才好進行到下一波的綜合規劃。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。","接下來我想請教，前幾年行政院這邊都有一些專案，針對學校的專案，不論是「班班有冷氣」，或者是「生生用平板」，我也知道之前行政院這邊、教育部這邊，也有針對學校的PU跑道，或者是老舊廁所、老舊校舍，都有這樣的專案補助地方，我今天想要跟院長講的就是我們彰化，我以彰化這邊為例，彰化這邊有很多的學校，不論是國中、國小，或者是高中也好，尤其是國中、國小，很多的老舊廁所，真的還非常的多，教育部在去年一年當中只有編列4,000萬左右，讓全臺灣的國中、國小來改善老舊的廁所，其實全臺灣只有4,000萬真的非常的不夠，我記得去年的時候彰化這邊才分到幾間，尤其是在我的選區裡面，其實老舊廁所會影響到整個學生或者是老師的生理健康、身體健康，真的影響非常的大，我想請教，未來行政院這邊針對這些老舊廁所會有什麼樣的專案來挹注地方建設？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長先說明一下公立國民中小學老舊廁所的改建計畫。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，從105年到113年行政院用改善老舊廁所的專案投入了83.5億，整體做了一個改善，總共有3,639棟。事實上我們中小學有關建築物硬體設備編列的預算，譬如說磁磚掉落、地坪，包括廁所，我們實際上每年是編列兩億多，但是以全國老舊廁所的改善而言，確實在整個年度的預算是比較不夠的，但是也非常感謝行政院院長看到了這一個問題，歷年來對全國各中小學的老舊教室也已經都有編列專款來進一步改善。"],["黃委員秀芳：我可不可以麻煩院長針對全臺灣所有老舊的廁所編列預算，讓這些老舊廁所能夠儘速更新？"],["卓院長榮泰：未來114年、115年我們還有80億的預算能夠針對二千六百多間的廁所進行改善，我希望都能夠平均的散布在需要的各地方。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，那麻煩院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第15號謝龍介委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137501_00010"}},"委員名稱":"黃秀芳","duration":963,"start_time":"2024-09-24T14:30:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdc7d5d95287b89b2a080db18246d46b9fd6e84e674c262de33c92cf3cd52490148225f33e433285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.329093750000002,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.36221875,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.31409375,"end":24.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25.309718750000002,"end":107.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":108.14909375,"end":135.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.27971875,"end":139.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.92471875,"end":140.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.13971875000001,"end":144.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.73409375,"end":145.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.89846875,"end":148.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.34096875,"end":150.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.84284375000001,"end":154.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.23034375,"end":158.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.45346875,"end":159.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.87096875,"end":161.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.62596875,"end":162.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.63846875000002,"end":164.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.61284375000002,"end":168.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.32534375,"end":170.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.90721875,"end":172.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.99971875,"end":173.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.06284375,"end":176.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.66159375,"end":179.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.64846875,"end":183.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.44534375,"end":186.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.95534375000003,"end":188.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.76096875000002,"end":189.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.52034375000002,"end":192.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.67596875,"end":194.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.07221875000002,"end":199.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.71284375000002,"end":204.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":204.60659375,"end":262.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":263.41596875,"end":302.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":302.97096875,"end":323.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.62596875,"end":325.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":325.88721875000005,"end":328.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.41846875000005,"end":329.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.59971875,"end":330.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.88221875000005,"end":334.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":334.94909375000003,"end":340.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.24784375,"end":341.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.61471875,"end":342.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.96471875000003,"end":350.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.72721875,"end":356.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.56596875,"end":359.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.56971875000005,"end":362.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.65784375000004,"end":364.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.86846875000003,"end":369.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.35721875,"end":371.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":371.31471875,"end":374.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.28471875,"end":374.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":374.62221875,"end":378.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.03971875,"end":377.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.49096875000004,"end":377.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.50784375,"end":377.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.82846875,"end":377.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.52034375000005,"end":395.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.88534375,"end":392.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.10846875000004,"end":410.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":410.75159375000004,"end":416.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":417.21471875000003,"end":418.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":418.75034375,"end":428.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":429.56721875000005,"end":571.6884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.65159375,"end":429.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.97221875,"end":430.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.14346875,"end":441.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.3459687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院長剛剛在12點左右立法院的程序委員會又將114年度的中央政府總預算退回程序委員會那我想請教就是說其實在今年8月份的時候總統有到彰化去訪視地方的社福機構"},{"start":47.941,"end":75.183,"text":"當時國民黨執政的張化縣長王惠美王縣長也在現場跟賴總統提出張化縣有很多社福機構有需要中央這邊的幫忙尤其有五棟的社福大樓需要中央盡速合撥當場賴總統也有答應就是說只要立法院的預算通過之後"},{"start":83.085,"end":99.069,"text":"中央政府的總預算又被退回程序委員會我覺得這應該是有史以來第一次那我當了立委第三屆我也是碰到第一次在預算會期應該是要審預算的結果是沒有預算可以審"},{"start":99.989,"end":100.009,"text":"蔣麗芳議員"},{"start":120.324,"end":120.884,"text":"國防預算影響"},{"start":136.305,"end":161.78,"text":"好謝謝委員我還是誠摯的希望大家能夠心平氣和理性的去看待整部的預算這預算裡面他縱然他有很多的人事跟一般的法定支出我們還是可以依法來執行但是重點在於一些新增的業務如果沒有預算通過的話是沒有辦法實施的那我願意很誠意的說明就是無論"},{"start":162.734,"end":163.034,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":183.576,"end":204.224,"text":"希望用中央整理中央預算的總預算的完整性交付給大院來審議所以在目前這個程序而言我仍然是希望說程序委員會能夠盡快的復為施肢審查審查的過程當中我們據理說明清楚那麼有任何刪減的意見大家可以來好好的討論我們都予以尊重"},{"start":205.765,"end":220.786,"text":"我認為中央政府總預算影響的是全台灣人民當然就以我是區域立委來講我當然是希望中央補助地方的經費能夠儘速快速到達"},{"start":221.647,"end":246.055,"text":"那當然如果說這個中央的預算在立法院在第一關程序委員會就被擋掉那很難就是中央的這個挹注很難挹注到地方這個尤其是挹注地方的這個建設所以我們也希望就是說不論是在野黨所有的立委應該也要去審思因為這個影響的是全台灣人民那尤其是這個地方政府的話"},{"start":246.815,"end":247.095,"text":"院長,因為我們在這個"},{"start":263.647,"end":290.213,"text":"網路上時常會看到名人詐騙在網路上投資就可以賺蠻多錢的很多人是因為看到這樣子的廣告就做這樣的一個投資我們也看到抒發部可能在最近有打詐行政院這邊相關部會也都很認真打詐的部分我想請教就是說"},{"start":290.993,"end":291.434,"text":"目前還有類似名人﹚"},{"start":311.557,"end":323.009,"text":"的這個廣告直接在網路上面去廣告就是鼓勵民眾去做投資的這個狀況如果我們這個24小時下架然後又用實名制的刊登廣告那這個成效到底是怎樣"},{"start":324.006,"end":342.588,"text":"我不敢否認還是有那過去我們是對於這些平台毫無力道可以作為那在打仗新法通過之後我們至少要求他下架下架就可以納管納管就必須會有責任我們就有源頭可以追溯所以目前在尋這個管道跟方式來"},{"start":343.129,"end":371.32,"text":"那對於若干的這種利用名人打詐﹖詐欺的這個狀況我們已經破獲了不少那麼也請一些受害的名人出來現身說法但是這個事情還是會出現那我們現在要求的是出現之後用最短的速度讓他能夠下架同時追溯到源頭所以我們現在有一個打詐的平台等等不管是165打詐中心或是這個平台都提供了這樣的管道跟方式"},{"start":371.88,"end":394.731,"text":"那確實是24小時下架嗎我發現在網路上有這樣的一個詐騙的一個廣告目前我們通知Facebook或者是Line通常都會在24小時之內下架那委員所提到的24小時下架的這個應該是指的是我們最近速發部公布的打詐專法的執法我們這裡面有規定說如果我們通知了這些"},{"start":395.311,"end":395.832,"text":"刊登廣告應該使用實名制"},{"start":417.293,"end":428.702,"text":"要不然其實真的這個詐騙的廣告真的非常的多而且影響受騙的人真的非常的廣所以我們希望說這個打詐的這部分我們應該還要再努力"},{"start":429.599,"end":430.059,"text":"臺中捷運綠線延伸到彰化"},{"start":449.609,"end":463.955,"text":"當時交通部李前部長也有特別提到我們預計在今年年底應該整個綜合規劃會完成我想請教因為從5月份到現在也又經過了將近4個月的時間"},{"start":467.336,"end":467.656,"text":"陳建仁議員"},{"start":486.73,"end":491.113,"text":"指詢卓院長和陳部長針對彰化非常重要的軌道建設的進度如何?"},{"start":502.1,"end":517.905,"text":"再來就是說地方的負責可能他自己也要有一些分擔可能要有一些分擔地方可能會提出分擔的金額這個預算可能有點多捷運綠線的話可能要分擔到67億"},{"start":525.908,"end":526.329,"text":"主席"},{"start":546.451,"end":571.237,"text":"不論是運輸或者是觀光對地方政府整體的發展真的非常的重要所以我想再一次的請卓院長針對我們彰化的這兩個軌道建設那未來中央跟地方要如何來合作那競速如果是在年底綜合規劃可以完成的話那如何來加速我們鐵路高架的進行"},{"start":572.775,"end":597.647,"text":"捷運綠線道彰化以及這個鐵道的高架化最新的進度這陳部長應該有所掌握請他跟委員報告先說跟委員報告這個鐵路高架化的部分目前已經進入綜合規劃的階段那環評也正在進行當中我們針對花壇跟二水的這兩個基地目前設定好是雙基地也跟地方政府也都協商好所以這個部分是沒有問題"},{"start":598.767,"end":625.318,"text":"加速進行的部分委員也一直在關心所以交通部這邊會竭盡所能的來協助這個地方政府在針對這個綜合規劃的部分我們盡量盡快來加速這個部分是沒有問題我們盡快來推動那如果中間還有什麼疑義的話包含經費的部分其實我們跟地方會持續來協商這個沒有問題那到時候也會拜託委員也幫忙溝通那另外針對捷運的部分其實捷運的綠線目前是由台中市政府在做這個綜合規劃的階段"},{"start":627.219,"end":656.016,"text":"這個部分是沒有問題但是就是說彰化的這一段比較往南的這一段因為牽涉到這個彰東的這個都市計畫那我們希望這個縣政府能夠在都市計畫的部分能夠具體一點讓我們知道說整個路線他到時候的落站點會是在哪裡因為這個還要都市計畫所以土地的規劃還沒有確定那這個部分還在等彰化縣政府不過這個部分交通部也會出面來協助臺中市政府跟彰化縣政府之間的溝通我知道委員很關心所以地方也很期待"},{"start":656.756,"end":683.496,"text":"所以這個部分我們會盡量來推動加速的計畫我要再次提這兩個軌道建設真的是非常非常久從我當議員到現在將近已經20年的時間這兩個從一開始就在講彰化要鐵路高架台中捷運綠線要到彰化來結果到現在還在綜合規劃那我不知道說未來我要怎麼跟我的這個地區的民眾講說"},{"start":684.957,"end":685.117,"text":"張嬅的主席"},{"start":701.7,"end":715.618,"text":"張化是六都以外人口最多的一個地方那張化可不可以發展其實有關於這兩個軌道建設如果可以做好的話其實可以帶動整個張化的都市的成長那"},{"start":716.298,"end":740.016,"text":"章化也是整個中小企業非常多的地方整個中部地區中小企業最多也是在章化所以我希望卓院長你的關愛的眼神是不是可以投注在章化多一點進速將這兩個軌道建設能夠如果今年年底綜合規劃可以完成之後那是不是可以中央跟地方合作加速推動這兩個軌道建設的進行"},{"start":742.073,"end":763.375,"text":"好 我們本於這個均衡台灣的理念各地的重大建設都是非常重要的剛剛陳部長所說的這個希望地方政府跟我們必須的合作包括這個有三個戰體它周邊的開發以及財務的計畫經費的分擔等等都希望地方政府能夠緊縮的有一個說法跟規劃出來才好進行到下一波的綜合規劃"},{"start":768.487,"end":777.978,"text":"前幾年行政院這邊都有一些專案 針對學校的專案不論是斑斑有冷氣 深深有用平板"},{"start":779.56,"end":780.06,"text":"張嬅有很多學校﹑國中﹑國小"},{"start":802.461,"end":802.961,"text":"黃秀芳教育部長"},{"start":832.266,"end":856.532,"text":"那尤其是在我的選區裡面其實針對這個老舊廁所會影響到整個學生或者是老師的這個身體健康真的影響非常的大那我想請教就是說未來我們行政院這邊會不會針對我們這些老舊廁所會有什麼樣的專案然後來挹注地方建設"},{"start":858.075,"end":880.892,"text":"請部長先說明一下公立國民中小學老舊廁所的改建計畫謝謝委員關心事實上從105年到113年我們投入從行政院他用專案的一個改善老舊廁所投入了83.5億那整個做了一個改善總共有這一個3639棟那事實上這一個我們"},{"start":887.476,"end":911.209,"text":"中小學這裡邊每年的邊的有關這個建築物這一些硬體設備譬如說瓷磚掉落或者地平包括廁所我們實際上是邊列這個2億多但是以全國的這個廁所的改善確實是在整個年度的預算是比較不夠的但是也非常感謝行政院院長事實上看到了這個問題他也這一個"},{"start":913.797,"end":917.821,"text":"那我是不是可以麻煩院長針對這個我們所有全台灣的這些老舊的廁所"},{"start":953.703,"end":954.406,"text":"黃秀芳委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:30:25 - 14:46:28","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154878"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:31:20","end_time":"2024-09-24T11:50:09+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154877","gazette":{"lineno":644,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時19分）主席謝謝，麻煩請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：卓院長早。首先還是先就教全民所關心的議題，有高達八成的民眾遲遲是反對廢除死刑，廢除死刑人民沒有辦法接受，也不願意尊重，怎麼辦？這一次憲法法庭上禮拜做出了一個有條件的合憲判決，政府能夠接受嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法法庭對憲法做出的解釋，它的位階是相當高的……"],["洪委員孟楷：我要問的是政府能夠接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以，我們現在應該形成社會的共同標準，但後面有一些相當的多的條件……"],["洪委員孟楷：社會的共識就是社會的共同標準，歷次到現在，有八成以上的民意都是反對廢除死刑，您認為現在臺灣社會有條件廢除死刑嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是遵照憲法法庭所說的有條件的合憲，在死刑這個制度上，基本上、原則上它是合憲。"],["洪委員孟楷：上午也有委員就教您，您個人到底是贊成廢除死刑？還是反對廢除死刑？院長，我能不能請教一下？其實我們也都很想瞭解部會首長，大家對於這個社會高度關心的議題，到底態度、立場是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一點，在憲法法庭這樣的解釋文之後，它應該成為一個共同的標準。第二點，如果要問我，我覺得社會重大的惡行，在法律所不允許的狀況底下，如果能夠遵照憲法上所規定的正當法律程序完成對一個人的防衛權利的抗辯之後，仍然由法官能夠來判處他應得的罪刑，這樣的行為應該被社會所接受，也應該依法執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以，您到底是贊成廢除死刑？還是反對廢除死刑？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛才講過……"],["洪委員孟楷：聽起來你是反對廢除死刑嗎？是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起？"],["洪委員孟楷：您反對廢除死刑是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得臺灣現在是有死刑存在的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，有死刑存在。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是依法行政。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是重點是沒有執行啊！過去到現在，尤其民進黨政府上任之後，其實執行死刑的狀況非常的少，而現在做出這樣的一個有條件合憲之後的判決，讓外界質疑在臺灣殺人比死刑更容易，難道不諷刺嗎？尤其大法官還做出了條件解釋，要一審、二審、三審法官都要一致判決，變成一票否定制，中華民國從上到下所有的制度裡面，有那麼嚴苛的制度嗎？行政院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以憲法法庭要行政院跟立法院合作，兩年內要修改相關的法律。"],["洪委員孟楷：他不是要我們行政、立法合作！現在看起來是司法院凌駕行政、立法耶！司法院凌駕行政院，因為如果有任何法官要判處死刑的話，全部的法官都要同意啊！法務部能夠接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去法務部，我們在釋憲法庭的時候所講出來認為死刑是合憲的，有條件嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：死刑的制度在我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：法務部的立場，死刑有條件嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：立場我們認為是合憲的。"],["洪委員孟楷：判決死刑是有條件的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是尊重整個憲法法庭的……"],["洪委員孟楷：我在問是法務部的立場，不是你尊重憲法法庭！法務部的立場是什麼？判決死刑有沒有條件？有沒有要一審、二審，三審法官都一定要一致的判決，才能夠判決死刑？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分法務部還是尊重……我們是依照憲法法庭……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經出來了，我現在在問的是法務部的意見有沒有……"],["鄭部長銘謙：……憲判字已經判決出來……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有條件？沒有條件嘛！那立法權，我們也講了，立法委員在過去所有世界民主國家裡面，死刑都是立法權來做決定、來訂立，可是今天是司法院凌駕行政跟立法院！院長，我再請教，現在有37名死刑犯已經三審定讞，其中最長的死刑犯24年了，已經定讞24年，1999年判決死刑到現在24年還沒有執行，現在既然有條件合憲，該不該執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，我覺得這兩天以來很多的討論，針對裡面……這37名當中，有幾位在程序上顯然不符合的，那個有一定的處理過程……"],["洪委員孟楷：我在問的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：其他的部分，應該由檢察單位，就他們該不該執行程序來做瞭解。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，現在是由最高檢察署……"],["洪委員孟楷：法務部該不該執行？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是依法處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：依法處理啊！我現在就是有條件合憲……"],["鄭部長銘謙：……37位死刑犯……"],["洪委員孟楷：37位是不是都可以非常上訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是都可以非常上訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不一定要非常上訴……這個現在由最高檢察署來審……"],["洪委員孟楷：他們37位，是不是因為這一次的大法官解釋之後都可以非常上訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要再審……"],["洪委員孟楷：再審不就是非常上訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為每個個案不同嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以加害者能夠非常上訴，那被害者誰幫他們上訴？被害者的家屬誰幫他們上訴？這不就是我們政府應該的責任嗎？所以院長，我再拉回來，我們這兩年、上一屆一直在討論所謂國民法官法、國民法官制度，但是今天大法官判決出來之後，憲法法庭要求一致性的判決，未來國民法官的案件，即便是六名國民法官都同意要判處死刑，但只要有一名職業法官反對，是不是就沒有辦法判處死刑？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有發現到這樣的狀況，未來在執行上是否適當，所以就憲法法庭所說的，2年內要修改相關的條文，這當中是不是容許有更多的討論空間……"],["洪委員孟楷：也會把它納進來修法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說，是不是容許有更多討論空間……"],["洪委員孟楷：行政部門會提出版本嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：而且能夠得到社會的認同，在行政、立法、司法之間也能取得平衡。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我現在就是在就教您，現在就是要跟您確認這個議題嘛！六名國民法官如果一致都判處死刑，但只要有一名職業法官不同意就沒有辦法判處死刑，那是不是就是一個漏洞？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是就是大法官解釋之後形成的後續漏洞？有可能變成殺人犯，或者是罪大惡刑者的犯罪空間、逃脫條款，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是法院指出應該處理的問題，因為這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以行政院的態度是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們法務部會再配合修法，在修法之中會把我們的意見……"],["洪委員孟楷：會修法？所以會提出行政院的版本修法，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們行政部門會提意見……"],["洪委員孟楷：我只確認，會提出行政院版本的修法，把這個漏洞給補齊，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個法院組織法的主管機關是司法院……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：他們修法會跟行政院會銜，我們法務部會提出建議意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：你的意見是什麼？要修正這個漏洞？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個一致性的……"],["洪委員孟楷：要不要修正這個漏洞？我現在就問那麼簡單……院長，我還有很多問題，是不是請院長回答，好不好？院長，您的行政院版本會怎麼出來？會不會修正這個漏洞？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長說過，法院組織法的調整是司法院的職權，但我們認為可以討論的是，將來如何在執行上是可行的，這個可行也要符合社會大家共同的標準跟價值。"],["洪委員孟楷：這就是本席點出來的，大法官釋憲跟我們八成以上的民意背道而馳，這樣已經變成是實質廢死，臺灣現在真的沒有理由、沒有空間和條件廢死；本席希望未來有一天如果沒有這種重大惡行犯罪者，當我們社會天下太平，可以不要有死刑，但是重大惡行犯罪者還沒有防制之前，有死刑的嚇阻做最後一道防線，這是司法正義的最後一道防線。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我很負責任的跟委員說明……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法法庭所做的這個解釋不是廢死、並非廢死……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是它已經實質走向廢死的方向……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，它不是廢死，我們死刑是存在的。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，本席再跟您討論、就教下一個會期，部長可以先請回。","本席一直強調這個會期的重點是人事跟總預算，您也提到以人為先、團結合作。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，團結合作、以人為先，我想我們都同意，但重點在於團結不是只有你的團結是團結，在野黨的團結也是團結……"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：全民的團結是團結，所以凝聚共識非常重要，我想請教……"],["卓院長榮泰：整個國家的團結。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，國家的團結、國家的方向一起走。我想請教，上禮拜五晚上，賴清德總統宴請民進黨籍的立委，並且經過轉述之後，賴總統說總預算被退回很罕見，所以民進黨團要求韓院長要進行朝野協商。本席也想請教，賴總統從當選總統到現在9個月的時間了，沒有跟在野黨包括國民黨團、民眾黨團有任何一個想要溝通的方向，或是想要溝通的表示，這是不是也很罕見？一個民選的總統，過去陳水扁總統也跟在野黨領袖拜會過，過去馬英九總統也跟在野黨領袖座談過，蔡英文總統也跟在野黨領袖座談過，那我想請教，9個月過去了，一個40%的少數民選總統，到目前為止沒有打算要跟在野黨有任何的溝通，是不是也很罕見？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統尊重五院體制的憲法結構，他不會……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您說過去蔡英文不尊重囉？"],["卓院長榮泰：他不會輕易的啟動院際的協商，但是他跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是院際協商啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：他跟五院院長在各種場合的碰面是都有的。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是朝野溝通。"],["卓院長榮泰：那如果……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我可以請教，您剛剛進來有接受媒體採訪，你也講說希望朝野進一步溝通……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那這個責任在誰身上？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望我跟韓院長也能夠溝通……"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：朝野黨團也能夠繼續溝通……"],["洪委員孟楷：還有包括行政部門跟立法部門溝通……"],["卓院長榮泰：行政、立法兩院也能繼續溝通……"],["洪委員孟楷：以及現在最重要是總統、執政團隊，執政黨跟在野黨的溝通不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果院跟院之間的溝通不良，或是有任何的重大事件發生，似乎總統是可以依照憲法啟動院際協商，但這個不輕易的啟動。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果不輕易啟動，那什麼時候、什麼情況下會啟動？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統自有判斷。"],["洪委員孟楷：黨團也認為，現在這樣一個總預算以及包括人事的部分，對於我們一而再、再而三的要求或是說民眾的一個呼籲，行政部門沒有聽到、充耳不聞，這樣子不算嚴重嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們完全有聽到，而且願意更誠懇地跟大家談。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，您知不知道為什麼總統不願意跟在野黨有任何的溝通？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統沒有說不願意。"],["洪委員孟楷：可是都一直沒有做任何的行動啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說總統自有判斷。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去蔡英文總統、馬英九總統以及陳水扁總統都有這樣的動作，您自己的了解，總統不願意做這樣的動作的原因是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統沒有不願意，他自有判斷在什麼時機、用什麼方式。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您覺得您也不願意跟總統建議，是不是應該也可以跟在野黨來互相的溝通，甚至是邀請在野黨來做所謂的國是會議，來做一個國是溝通？我相信在野黨應該都很樂意。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的這席話，總統一定聽得到，不用我建議，總統一定會聽到大院委員的建議，他都非常重視。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以您說總統現在也在看我們立院的直播就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在沒看，但他也會看到報導。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我想請教院長，之前我們行政院江宜樺前院長，他也在上任的時候表態要拜會在野黨的領袖，當時民進黨的主席是蘇貞昌，雖然到最後沒有促成，但是我也想請教您個人的意願是？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統拜會在野黨領袖嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，行政院啊！您現在是行政院長，除非你想要當總統……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在講的是，行政院長表態要拜會在野黨領袖，您從520上任到現在也已經4個多月了，您自己有沒有這樣的打算？既然國民黨、在野黨跟執政黨好像現在溝通上是這樣，那您本身願不願意來拜會在野黨領袖？"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在的工作還是比較適宜跟韓院長還有其他的院長來做溝通，那各黨……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您也不願意？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，各黨有各黨的主席，由主席去做溝通，我覺得黨務的交流是比較順暢的，我很願意跟韓院長溝通，其實我們各種溝通都很多的。"],["洪委員孟楷：各種溝通很多？這個我不知道，因為現在韓院長沒有辦法發言，我也不想問。"],["卓院長榮泰：他有微笑！"],["洪委員孟楷：但是本席的重點在什麼？就像您剛剛講的，臺灣、中華民國我們一起努力打拼啊！可是本席要講的是，執政者、擁有執政權力的人沒有多一點點善意，如果能夠多釋出一點橄欖枝，否則你要怎麼樣期待所謂的團結合作、以人為本？這是講真的還講假的？","再來，總預算、人事的部分，我們先討論人事，大法官人事連綠營內部都已經有罵聲，黨籍立委哀號「歹處理」！有這種事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為這個是總統府的作業，我也希望說……"],["洪委員孟楷：我想請教，上禮拜五你們有一起座談，因為民進黨上任8年以來，找所謂的立委溝通，都是找民進黨籍的立委，從來沒找過在野黨籍立委，不過沒關係，我尊重你們的作法，但重點是黨籍立委連人事也有意見了，現在的人事你也不溝通，沒有跟你們自己內部的民進黨立委溝通，你也不找在野黨立委溝通，那你們到底要溝通什麼？你認為之後的人事案會很順利得通過嗎？不管是NCC、不管是考試委員、不管是大法官，你認為會很順利得通過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統府提名之後，自然會由總統府秘書長帶著這幾位被提名人到各黨團做正式的拜託，讓大家互相的認識，這個是絕對會做到的，我也希望大家能夠充分去了解他們個人的立場和過去的學經歷。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，說實在話，要溝通就拿出誠意，不要什麼事情面對到在野黨合理監督的時候就推給韓院長，韓院長已經是我們看過最公道的公道伯了，但是不要每一次溝通不順的時候就是要韓院長來朝野協商。因為如果要通過你們法案的時候，你們就是下達軍令狀，要求你們黨籍立委團進團出來投票。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我剛剛談話當中沒有這種意思，說韓院長溝通不良，沒有，我絕對沒有這種意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，想請教人事的部分，內閣團隊有沒有溝通不良的狀況？就是內部有沒有橫向溝通不良的狀況？"],["卓院長榮泰：一開始我承認有，漸漸的到現在為止，互相都知道彼此工作的角色要怎麼扮演，而且有充分的合作……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以已經從一開始上路卡卡的，到現在比較順暢了？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是比較順暢。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，邱泰源部長跟環境部部長是怎麼回事？"],["卓院長榮泰：這問題剛剛上一位委員也有提到。"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道，但我現在只看到你們人前手牽手，背後怎麼樣……下一句我就不講了。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：請邱部長跟彭部長請上臺。這件事情凸顯三個狀況，第一，網內互打對卓賴體制其實是損傷，坐實總統把手伸進行政體系。第二，卓院長是不是無視被架空、沒有領導統御？第三，會不會所有內閣團隊以後都有樣學樣，就直接跟總統報告就好了？邱部長，總統罵彭部長是你自己聽到的？總統告訴你？還是別人轉述跟你說？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有。我跟彭部長是多年好友，我們一直在討論醫療院所怎麼節能減碳……"],["洪委員孟楷：我是說總統罵……"],["邱部長泰源：在討論當中，這個我完全沒有跟總統有互動過。"],["洪委員孟楷：你沒有跟總統互動過？所以是彭部長告訴你說總統罵他？"],["邱部長泰源：不是罵，他是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是彭部長告訴你，總統打給他？"],["邱部長泰源：對醫療院所節能減碳的活動非常肯定……"],["洪委員孟楷：邱部長，聽本席的問題！本席是問，你說總統打給彭部長這件事，是彭部長告訴你總統打給他？"],["邱部長泰源：是彭部長告訴我的。"],["洪委員孟楷：彭部長，接到總統的電話，有沒有第一時間跟卓院長報告？"],["彭部長啓明：有，其實我跟總統、跟卓院長，都常常在討論淨零減碳的事情，所以對於醫院部分，其實院長也很……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以總統確實不只一次打給你，要求你做與淨零減碳相關的政策？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，其實我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛說不時打電話，現在又說沒有？"],["彭部長啓明：不是。總統府有國家氣候變遷對策委員會，行政院會會先報告完，然後到國家氣候變遷委員會討論，所以討論的議題在這裡面。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，但打電話啊！剛剛邱部長證實你告訴他總統打電話給你，不管是罵或說。中華民國憲政體制再怎麼樣，現在最高行政首長是誰？"],["彭部長啓明：院長。"],["洪委員孟楷：行政院院長？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在，你們的老闆、你們的領導人是行政院院長；你們的任命權，也是行政院院長任命的。一樣，今天總統貴為我們中華民國的元首，他可以私下打電話給你，跟你講政策，還要你補貼相關的醫療院所，這是不是已經介入行政體制？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在在請教彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我每天都接到工總、商總各式各樣對淨零減碳的關心，包含……"],["洪委員孟楷：那是關心，你不一定做。但今天是總統打電話來！總統打電話來，你可以不做嗎？我剛剛請教，你第一時間接到總統電話後，有沒有跟卓院長報告？還是總統跟卓院長說了，卓院長指示你？這是體制的問題，你懂我意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：體制上我們跟院長都是在一起的，我們每個禮拜……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有在一起，因為卓院長剛剛已經承認了，說這件事他看了新聞才知道。換言之，你沒有主動跟卓院長報告……"],["卓院長榮泰：所謂看了新聞才知道是說，邱部長講的那句話我看了新聞才知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：對啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：他講的那句話我看了新聞才知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：他講總統罵彭部長？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，他講的這句話我看了新聞才知道。報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：其實這件事情……"],["卓院長榮泰：我講兩句話就好了……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我一個結論。說實在話，這件事其實是你們幾個部會首長自己私下的溝通，但我要凸顯的重點是什麼？第一，中華民國憲政體制；第二，責任政治。如果總統今天可以直接跟部長溝通的話，那我們邀請總統來做國情報告何錯之有？我們認為現在的雙首長制讓行政院長相對來說，就像總統的幕僚長或秘書長，而總統有實際的權力去指揮各部會首長，也因此我們才會說，希望總統能夠來做責任政治的報告……"],["卓院長榮泰：兩句話跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在講……"],["卓院長榮泰：部長也好，我也好，跟總統都會有公開或是固定在私底下見面的時間，都會有……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯嘛！我現在講的就是打電話……"],["卓院長榮泰：我會跟總統談說……"],["洪委員孟楷：這不嚴重……"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟總統會談說……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你要這樣唾面自乾我也沒有辦法。重點在於，如果今天你跟總統不同調的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：同調。"],["洪委員孟楷：總統是跳過你直接指揮……"],["卓院長榮泰：我的第二句話是，我跟部長的重要政策，在我跟總統的見面當中都會跟總統談，所以總統完全知道每個部會首長重要政策在推動的時程跟進度，他關心的是這個事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我可不可以……"],["洪委員孟楷：邱部長不要再打斷我的話，我現在請教院長。院長，這件事情凸顯什麼？第一，碳費基金要不要趕快訂立？碳費本來應該是今年上半年度就出來，但是到目前為止還沒有出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：環境部已經決定了。"],["洪委員孟楷：第二，基金的運用有沒有規則可循？絕對有啊，否則的話，今天各部會私下打電話，我要五毛、我要一塊，部長這邊就可以來做這個小金庫，這樣完全不對。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有這種事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是不是應該要法制化作業？"],["卓院長榮泰：碳費的決定怎麼實施，環境部已經完整，相關的三個子法也出來了……"],["彭部長啓明：對，三個子法已經在8月底公布了，一般費率300到500塊已經定了，現在就是優惠費率……"],["洪委員孟楷：還沒有最後的確認嘛，所以我剛剛上來質詢之前才要確認的是，其實最後一次你們才把所謂的碳費確認出來嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：已經確認了。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，拉回來總預算的部分，兩位部長請回。","有關總預算的部分，我們看最先進民主國家美國，美國從1974年到2023年，全國家的總預算真正能夠在預設時間內通過的，在49年的這49次裡面有幾次，院長知道嗎？只有4次，美國……"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為能夠在法定時間通過對每個國家、每個人民都好。"],["洪委員孟楷：美國這個成熟民主國家在總預算預設時間內通過4次，在49次裡面只有4次。立法院在上禮拜五確實我們做出了一個決議，是大家投票通過退回行政院所提出的總預算，這是明年度的，最主要有幾個原因，第一，2016年馬政府最後一年的時候，全國總預算是一兆九千多億，但是過去民進黨8年執政之後，尤其賴清德總統的第一年預算居然高達史上破天荒的3兆，這是創歷史新高。第二，我們也認為裡面有一些預算應編列沒編列、該編列沒編列，是不是應該要做調整？第三，有一些預算明顯有浮編或浮報的狀況，包括宣傳費用大漲的部分，我們也請行政部門的算盤是不是能夠再做個檢討或討論？其實站的角度是什麼？就是為人民把關嘛，我的原則很簡單，預算當用則用、當省則省。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：你可以問一下每個部會，如果說有來我辦公室的，只要他們來，我說為中華民國做事、為臺灣2,350萬人做事，我對預算絕對不會刁難。但是如果說沒有，而是用政治意識形態或是讓我覺得你們有浮編、濫編的狀況，很抱歉，我們不會手軟。現在退回預算，其實只要行政部門馬上調整，再送進來，我們來做檢視，都可以進入到立法院再做實質的討論，因為進入到委員會後，立法委員只能刪減預算、凍結預算，不能增加預算，這點院長你也很清楚吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，行政院編列預算就是法定的權限。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，所以我們現在退回總預算，我現在要請教，在我們退回總預算之後，行政部門有沒有打算調整預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望盡力的透過朝野黨團繼續協商。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有打算？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望儘快的付委，委員剛剛所說的那幾項都正確……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你沒有打算要做任何的調整？"],["卓院長榮泰：你剛剛說的那幾項都正確……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我可不可以直接確認一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：都可以在實質審查裡面呈現出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我只要確認一件事情，院長，我確認一件事情，行政院這一次編列史上最高3兆元預算，我們現在退回，我們也說只要行政部門趕快重新審議編列都可以再送進來，而且更重要的是預算法第五十四條有規定，一般性費用、人事費用、補償費用、補貼費用、一般性例行計畫是不受預算審查的限制，換言之，即便我們到12月底以前沒有通過明年的總預算，但是明年1月一樣該發的薪水會發，該補貼的計畫會補貼，例行計畫也會照走，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以沒有影響到我們一般的，包括育兒津貼、衛福支出、社福支出等都沒有影響，人事費用也沒有影響。"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院知道這個規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在要問的是，請聽清楚我的問題，我們退回預算，行政部門有沒有打算做任何的調整？還是沒有，就是這樣鐵板一塊？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，行政院知道一般的預算我們可以執行，但是我們不會因此而怠惰跟立法院的溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那我現在講……"],["卓院長榮泰：第二點，很多的新增預算代表了我們下一個年度政府的政策，新增預算無法執行，政府大開腳步向前走的速度就會慢。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，讓我再提醒一下，以人為本、團結合作，但你的團結就變成是我說的才算啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，在國家的團結底下……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在認為預算應該要重新調整，但你們不要調整，就是不要調整，3兆那麼多，但你們不要調整，這就是行政院的態度……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛委員所說的，在實質審查時都可以達到這樣的功能。"],["洪委員孟楷：我只請教一件事，是不是就是您的態度？不會調整？有沒有調整的空間啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望繼續溝通，希望能夠儘速付委，之後大院就實質審查、詳細審查，我們誠意的溝通跟說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：韓院長，卓院長丟一個難題給你，他完全不退讓，完全鐵板一塊，但是就要求立法院長做朝野協商，這就是現在民進黨政府執政下的嘴臉！"],["卓院長榮泰：我是維護行政院預算的完整性，預算權的完整性。"],["洪委員孟楷：我還要請教的是宣傳費大增，尤其去年宣傳費用九億二百多萬，我認為這其實已經比馬政府時代又多編了很多，我一直強調，我相信卓院長應該也認同，做的好，大家會幫你做宣傳，不用你自己自誇自擂自吹，但如果做不好，只想要粉飾太平的話，民眾沒有辦法接受。今年全中央部會的宣傳預算高達十四億九千多萬，將近15億，暴增了5億9,000萬，我想請教，宣傳費用多了五億多，將近6億，有這個需要嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，去年的九億多是去年審查之後，打折之後的預算。"],["洪委員孟楷：買廣告、做電視、網路，我甚至沒有講網軍喔，但我想說電視等相關部分，即便你有講到只增加了三億多，三億多不是錢嗎？三億多可以有多少營養午餐，三億多能夠有多少的學童補助，這難道不是費用嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：光是……"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼要增加這麼多？"],["卓院長榮泰：在三億多裡面，內政部因為打詐相關所編列的就有2.3億。"],["洪委員孟楷：打詐，漂亮，非常好！院長，你講到打詐我就來討論打詐，昨天的新聞，101的董座講了什麼？她撂狠話說：「有種不要下架」，她要下架什麼？她要下架詐騙集團假冒她的名字的網路廣告。我們看下一張，我們打詐三法、打詐五法通過了，昨天賈永婕還在個人臉書上又貼說現在有詐騙集團冒她的名在做詐騙廣告。我說實在話，我們編列5億、10億的預算去宣傳打詐，抵不上一個賈永婕在臉書上發一篇她又被詐騙的文，為什麼？因為這代表的是國人一而再、再而三……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這個打詐我們會有處理……"],["洪委員孟楷：你要執法權力，我們給你執法權力，你要執法空間，我們給你執法空間，但是到目前為止，這樣的詐騙廣告還是層出不窮啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以每次出來我們都會……"],["洪委員孟楷：你還好意思講說打詐的宣傳要增加，從原本的一千四百多萬變成2億3,000萬，增加將近20倍！你1年的打詐預算比過去8年蔡英文執政的預算還要多，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請內政部長來說明我們增加的內容。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你知道你1年的打詐預算比過去蔡英文執政8年的打詐預算還要多，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為大家都希望能夠遏止詐騙這個歪風，我們也全力在進行……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以蔡英文政府的時候不希望嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們全力在進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，院長，我再來跟你討論本席的選區──淡水、林口在端午中秋節都有發生大陸人士突破海防的狀況，海委會說要6,000名的海巡志工，海巡署又說沒有規劃，請問院長知道這個事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個牽扯到治安，甚至是國安問題，我覺得這個要整體規劃，整體規劃才能產生出一個聯合防衛的效果。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，所以一個是主委說要6,000名志工，但海巡署馬上出來說沒有規劃。"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，沒有喔，完全沒有6,000名海巡志工這件事，我們也不了解這個新聞怎麼來的。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，完全不了解……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以管碧玲主委表示編列6,000名海巡志工……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，完全沒有，完全沒有！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這個新聞是假新聞囉？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不知道，連署長都不知道，沒有任何人知道這個新聞怎麼來的。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個新聞是假新聞？要不要跟這個媒體提告？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們沒有提告，但是我們有澄清，對於6,000名海巡志工這件事情完全沒有人聽說過……"],["洪委員孟楷：好。院長，我只請教，因為我們發生事情之後……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的海巡志工是救生救難，我們有3個海巡志工隊都是為了救生救難。"],["洪委員孟楷：我還是強調，我們共同防護海巡，我們共同支持海巡，今年海巡有編列了1億的紅外線相關建置計畫……"],["管主任委員碧玲：太少了，1億太少了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但是至少我們在所謂的紅色海灘裡面要建置吧？到目前為止，18處的紅色海灘你們建置了幾處？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，這個部分能不能容許我們不公開說明我們建置在什麼地點？因為我想還是某種程度會牽涉機敏。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是至少本席講到的，本席的淡水以及林口這兩個紅色海灘，也是我們之前國防部所規劃的，都沒有建置啊！所以你才沒有辦法掌握有遊艇、小艇進來到我們河口的狀況，不是嗎？這就是現在的問題嘛。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，所以我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你今年已經有編列1億的預算，但是你到目前為止，連最重要的18處的紅色海灘都沒有建置，那你怎麼有辦法說服國人說，我們有保衛國家的決心？"],["管主任委員碧玲：1億沒有辦法……"],["洪委員孟楷：這才是真真正正的重點。"],["管主任委員碧玲：1億沒有辦法包括所有的紅色海灘，所以我們的計畫是很龐大的，要……"],["主席：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止，下午兩點三十分繼續開會，進行施政報告之質詢。現在休息，謝謝大家。","休息（11時50分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 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死刑都是立法權來做決定來訂立可是今天是司法院凌駕行政跟立法院"},{"start":277.779,"end":298.409,"text":"院長我再請教現在有37名死刑犯是已經三審定業其中最長的死刑犯24年已經定業24年1999年判決死刑到現在24年還沒有執行現在既然有條件核限該不該執行"},{"start":300.523,"end":305.284,"text":"法務部該不該執行我們是在依法處理依法處理阿我現在就是有條件和限那該37位是不是都可以非常上訴"},{"start":328.916,"end":329.136,"text":"所以院長"},{"start":356.055,"end":379.751,"text":"我再拉回來我們這兩年上一屆一直在討論的是所謂國民法官法國民法官制度但是今天大法官判決出來之後所謂的憲法法庭要求一致性的判決未來國民法官的案件即便是六名國民法官都同意他要判處死刑但只要有一名職業法官反對是不是就沒有辦法判處死刑"},{"start":380.76,"end":407.845,"text":"我們有發現到這樣的一個狀況在未來執行上是否適當所以在這個憲法法庭所說的兩年內要修改相關的條文當中是不是這個部分容許有更多的討論空間也會把他納進來修法嗎我是說容許是不是容許有更多討論空間行政部門會提出版本嗎能夠得到社會的認同那麼在行政立法跟司法之間也能取得平衡現在就是要跟您確認這個議題嘛"},{"start":409.885,"end":426.161,"text":"6名國民法官如果說一致都判處死刑但只要1名職業法官不同意他就沒有辦法判處死刑那是不是就是一個漏洞是不是就是大法官解釋之後沒有辦法形成的後續的漏洞有可能變成是殺人犯或者是罪大惡行者的一個犯罪空間逃脫條款"},{"start":430.136,"end":446.601,"text":"這是法院指出應該處理的問題所以行政院您的態度是什麼那這邊法務部的話我們會再配合修法會修法所以會提出行政院的版本修法是不是我只確認會提出行政院版本修法把這個漏洞給補齊是這樣嗎"},{"start":450.11,"end":459.285,"text":"這個法院主管的機關是司法院那這部分他們修法會跟行政院會選那法務部的話我們會提出我們的建議意見"},{"start":461.308,"end":488.413,"text":"你的意見是什麼?要修正這個漏洞?要不要修正這個漏洞?我現在就問那麼簡單院長我還有很多問題是不是請院長回答好不好?院長您的行政院版本會怎麼出來?會不會修正這個漏洞?剛剛部長說過法院組織法的調整這個是司法院的職權但我們認為可以討論的是如何將來在執行上它是可行的這個可行也要符合到社會大家共同的標準跟價值"},{"start":489.284,"end":497.202,"text":"就是本席點出來大法官的視線就是跟我們八成以上的民意背道而馳這樣變成是已經實質廢死"},{"start":499.568,"end":500.789,"text":"委員 我很負責的跟委員說明 憲法法庭所說的這個結結是 不是廢死"},{"start":529.468,"end":530.008,"text":"以人為先團結合作"},{"start":549.198,"end":560.352,"text":"團結合作以人為先我想我們都同意但重點是團結不是只有你的團結是團結在野黨的團結也是團結當然全民的團結是團結所以凝聚共識非常重要"},{"start":561.485,"end":583.772,"text":"我們想請教啊當然國家的團結國家的方向一起走啊那我想請教上禮拜禮拜五晚上說賴清德總統驗起民進黨籍的立委那並且轉述之後賴總統說總預算被退回很罕見所以要求民進黨團要求韓院長要進行朝野協商那本席也想請教賴總統從當選總統到現在9個月的時間了沒有跟在野黨"},{"start":589.335,"end":599.491,"text":"包括國民黨團包括民眾黨團有任何的想要溝通的一個方向或是想要溝通的一個表示是不是這也很罕見"},{"start":600.612,"end":622.177,"text":"一個民選的總統過去陳水扁總統也跟在野黨領袖拜會過過去馬英九總統也跟在野黨領袖座談過蔡英文總統也跟在野黨領袖座談過我想請教9個月過去了一個40%的少數民選總統到目前為止沒有打算要跟在野黨有任何的溝通是不是也很罕見"},{"start":623.751,"end":648.354,"text":"總統尊重五院體制的憲法結構他不會輕易的啟動院紀的協商但是他跟五院院長在各種場合的朝野溝通院長我可以請教您剛剛進來的時候有接受媒體採訪媒體採訪您也講是說希望朝野進一步溝通那這個責任在誰身上"},{"start":650.08,"end":672.713,"text":"我希望我跟韓院長也能夠溝通是 朝野黨團也能夠繼續溝通還有包括行政部門跟立法部門溝通以及現在最重要是總統執政團隊執政黨跟在野黨的溝通不是嗎如果院跟院之間的溝通不良或是有任何的重大事件發生那我似乎總統是可以依照憲法啟動院際協商那這個不輕易的啟動"},{"start":673.573,"end":693.603,"text":"不經意啟動那什麼時候什麼情況下是啟動總統是有判斷黨團也認為說現在的這樣的一個總預算以及包括人事的部分我們對於行政部門一而再再三我們要求或說民眾的一個呼籲行政部門沒有聽到從而不聞這樣子不算嚴重嗎我們完全聽到而且願意"},{"start":695.075,"end":695.975,"text":"蔡英文總統 馬英九總統 陳水扁總統"},{"start":710.37,"end":728.163,"text":"您自己的瞭解總統不願意做這樣動作的原因是什麼總統沒有不願意他自有判斷在什麼時機用什麼方式所以您覺得您也不願意跟總統建議說是不是應該也可以跟在野黨來互相的溝通甚至如果說邀請在野黨來做這個所謂的這個國事會議"},{"start":729.284,"end":756.064,"text":"來做一個國事溝通我相信在野黨應該都很樂意委員的這幾話總統一定聽得到不用我建議總統一定聽到大院委員的建議他都非常重視好那所以您說總統現在在看我們立院的直播就對了現在沒看他也沒看到報導那我們來看一下那我想請教院長咧院長之前我們行政院江怡化前院長他也在上任的時候表態說要拜會在野黨的領袖當時民進黨的主席是蘇貞昌"},{"start":757.385,"end":778.403,"text":"雖然到最後沒有促成但是我也想請教您個人的意願呢總統拜會在野黨領袖嗎不是 行政院啊您現在是行政院長除非您想要當總統否則我現在講是說行政院長表態要拜會在野黨的領袖啊那現在您也從520上任到現在也已經4個多月了嘛您自己有沒有這種打算"},{"start":779.44,"end":794.819,"text":"既然國民黨跟在野黨跟這個執政黨好像現在溝通上那您本身願不願意來拜會在黨領袖我現在的工作還是比較適宜跟韓院長還有其他的院長我們來做溝通那各黨的主席"},{"start":797.942,"end":798.203,"text":"主席韓議員"},{"start":817.602,"end":820.303,"text":"大法官人士連綠營內部都已經有罵聲黨籍立委哀嚎拍出力"},{"start":847.162,"end":871.884,"text":"有這件事嗎那我希望因為這個是總統府的作業啦總統府的作業是那我也希望說我想請教上禮拜五你們一起座談因為民進黨上任8年以來找所謂的立委溝通都是找民進黨籍的立委從來沒找過這樣的黨籍立委不過沒關係我尊重你們的做法但重點是黨籍立委連人事也有意見了"},{"start":872.705,"end":898.976,"text":"那你現在人事你也不溝通你們沒有跟你們自己內部民進黨的立委溝通你也不早在野黨立委溝通那你們到底要溝通什麼這個在總統府作業完提名之後不管NCC不管考試委員不管大法官你認為會很順利的通過嗎他自然會有黨的祕書總統府祕書長帶著這幾位被提名人到各黨團做正式的拜託讓大家互相的認識這個是絕對會做到的"},{"start":903.027,"end":919.365,"text":"所以我一個結論啦 院長 院長 說實在話要溝通拿出誠意 不要什麼事情 面對到在野黨的合理的監督的時候就推給韓院長韓院長已經是我們最看到 最公道的公道伯了"},{"start":920.236,"end":945.362,"text":"但是不要每一次溝通不順的時候韓院長朝野協商那如果說你們要你們通過你們的法案的時候你們就是下達軍令狀要求你們黨籍立委團進團出來投票報告我剛剛的談話當中沒有這種意思說韓院長溝通不良沒有 我絕對沒有這種意思院長想請教人事的部分內閣團隊有沒有溝通不良的狀況 內部"},{"start":947.452,"end":974.505,"text":"一開始我承認有那漸漸的到現在為止互相都知道彼此的工作的角色要怎麼扮演而且有充分的合作所以已經從一開始上路KK到現在比較順暢當然是比較順暢那邱太元部長跟我們環境部部長這是怎麼回事這剛剛委員剛剛上一個委員也有推出過我知道啊但是我現在只有看到你人牽手牽手啊但背後怎麼樣下一句我就不講了"},{"start":976.319,"end":978.401,"text":"我直接向總統報告就好啊來 那個邱部長總統罵 彭部長"},{"start":1005.278,"end":1023.194,"text":"是你自己有聽到總統告訴你還是別人轉述跟你說沒有因為我跟彭部長是多人的好友我們一直在討論醫療演說怎麼樣來解釋我只是說總統罵在討論的當中這個我完全沒有跟總統有互動過你沒有跟總統互動過所以是彭部長告訴你說總統罵他"},{"start":1024.475,"end":1026.776,"text":"接到總統的電話有沒有第一時間跟卓院長報告"},{"start":1048.908,"end":1074.916,"text":"有其實我跟總統跟卓院長我們都常常在討論這個淨零減碳的事情所以這個議院的部分其實院長也很所以總統確實已經不只一次打給你要求你做相關淨零減碳的政策沒有其實我們在你剛說不實打電話現在又說沒有不是就是我們在這個總統有國家氣候變遷對策委員會我們行政院會先報告完然後到國家氣候變遷委員會裡面去討論所以這個討論的議題在這個裡面都有在裡面"},{"start":1078.57,"end":1078.59,"text":"院長"},{"start":1094.366,"end":1112.091,"text":"行政院院長你們的老闆說實在你們的領導人是行政院院長你們的任命權也是行政院院長任命的那一樣啊總統今天他貴為我們中華民國的元首他可以私下打電話給你跟你講一個政策還要你補貼相關的醫療院所"},{"start":1114.281,"end":1131.351,"text":"這是不是已經介入到了行政體制報告委員我現在在請教彭部長報告委員其實我每天都接到公總商總各式各樣對淨零減碳的關心那個是關心阿但你不一定做嘛但今天是總統打電話來阿總統打電話來你可以不做嗎"},{"start":1132.952,"end":1153.687,"text":"而且我剛剛就請教的是說你有沒有第一時間接到總統電話之後你跟卓院長報告還是總統跟卓院長說了卓院長跟你指示這是體制的問題你懂我意思嗎我們體制上我們跟院長都是在一起的我們每個禮拜沒有在一起的因為卓院長剛剛已經承認了他說這件事件是他看了新聞才知道"},{"start":1154.912,"end":1178.855,"text":"所以換言之你沒有主動跟卓院長報告我剛看了新聞才知道是說邱部長講的那句話我看了新聞才知道他講的那句話我看了新聞才知道他講說總統罵彭部長對他講這些我看新聞才知道報告委員喔我其實這件事情來院長我兩句話就好了院長我一個結論啦這件事情其實是說實在的話你們幾個部會首長自己私下的溝通但重點我要突顯是什麼"},{"start":1179.616,"end":1191.306,"text":"第一 中華民國憲政體制第二 責任政治如果說總統今天可以直接跟部長來做溝通的話那我們邀請總統來做國情報告何錯之有"},{"start":1192.065,"end":1192.245,"text":"沒錯嘛"},{"start":1216.254,"end":1243.517,"text":"我現在講的就是說打電話指示我會跟總統談說這不嚴重我跟總統會談說院長你要這樣拓滅自乾我沒有辦法但是重點在於是今天如果說你跟總統是不同調的話那總統是跳過你直接指揮第二句話是說我跟部長的重要的政策我在跟總統的見面當中我都會跟總統談所以總統都完全知道每一個部會所長重要政策在推動的時程跟進度"},{"start":1244.678,"end":1272.938,"text":"關心的是這個事情院長來 院長 邱部長不要再打斷我的話我現在請教院長院長 這件事情其實凸顯什麼第一 碳費基金要不要趕快訂立碳費應該 本來應該是今年上半年度就出來但到目前為止還沒有出來第二 基金的運用有沒有規則可循 絕對有否則的話各部會今天私下打電話 我要"},{"start":1274.002,"end":1275.663,"text":"所以是不是應該要法制化作業?"},{"start":1284.482,"end":1284.842,"text":"總預算的部分"},{"start":1314.164,"end":1333.2,"text":"我們看最先進民主國家美國美國從1974年到2023年他們全國家的總預算真正能夠在預設時間通過的49年49次裡面有幾次 院長知道嗎"},{"start":1335.623,"end":1336.744,"text":"美國在預設時間可以通過49次"},{"start":1349.858,"end":1376.886,"text":"立法院上禮拜五確實我們做出一個決議是大家投票通過是退回行政院所提出來的總預算這是明年最主要幾個原因第一2016年馬政府最後一年的時候全國的總預算是一兆九千多億但是過去民進黨八年執政之後尤其賴清德總統的第一年預算居然高砸史上破天荒的三兆這是創歷史新高"},{"start":1378.86,"end":1399.875,"text":"我們也認為說裡面有一些預算因編列沒編列 剛編列沒編列是不是應該要做調整以及第三 有一些預算明顯就已經有服編或是服報的狀況包括說宣傳費用大漲的部分我們也請行政部門是不是能夠算盤來再做一個檢討或討論其實站在角度是什麼"},{"start":1400.555,"end":1412.664,"text":"就是為人民把關嘛我的原則很簡單預算當用則用當審則審你可以問一下每一個部會如果說來我辦公室的只要他們來我說為中華民國做事為台灣2350萬人做事我預算絕對不會刁難"},{"start":1415.586,"end":1438.644,"text":"但是如果說沒有而是用政治意識形態或是讓我覺得是說你們有浮邊爛邊的狀況很抱歉我們不會手軟但現在退回預算其實只要行政部門馬上調整再送進來我們來做檢視都可以進入到立法院再做實質的討論因為進入到委員會立法委員只能刪減預算只能凍結預算不能增加預算"},{"start":1439.724,"end":1459.612,"text":"這點院長你也很清楚啊所以我們現在退回總預算我現在要請教我們現在退回總預算之後行政部門有沒有打算調整預算我們希望盡力的通過朝野黨團有沒有打算我們希望盡快的赴委委員剛剛所說的那幾項都正確你剛剛說的那幾項都正確都可以在實質審查裡面呈現出來院長我確認一件事情"},{"start":1467.697,"end":1479.333,"text":"行政院這次編列史上最高3兆元預算我們現在退回我們也說只要行政部門趕快再重新審議編列都可以再送進來而且更重要的是預算法54條裡面有規定"},{"start":1481.308,"end":1499.423,"text":"一般性的費用人事費用補償費用補貼費用一般性例行計畫是不受預算的這個審查的限制換言之就是即便我們到12月底以前沒有通過明年的總預算但是明年1月一樣該發的薪水會發該補貼的這個計畫會補貼例行的計畫會照走"},{"start":1506.15,"end":1506.79,"text":"行政院知道"},{"start":1529.574,"end":1557.91,"text":"一般的預算我們可以執行但是我們不會因此而怠惰跟立法院的溝通第二點 很多的新增預算代表我們下一個年度政府的政策新增預算就無法執行政府大開表步向前走的速度就會慢以人為本 團結合作你的團結就變成是說我說的才算啊我們現在認為是說你應該要去重新調整不要 我不要調整"},{"start":1558.789,"end":1574.496,"text":"我就是不要調整三跳那麼多我不要調整在實質審查都可以達到這樣的功能我再請教一件事是不是就是您的態度不會調整有沒有調整空間啦我們需要繼續溝通希望那個禁訴復違之後呢大院就實質審查詳細審查我們誠意的溝通跟說明"},{"start":1578.553,"end":1607.252,"text":"卓院長丟一個難題給你阿他完全不退讓完全鐵板一塊但是就要求立法院長做超越協商這就是現在民進黨政府執政下的嘴臉那我也請教宣傳大增尤其去年宣傳費用9億200多萬我其實認為阿這已經比馬政府時代的時候又多編了很多那我一直強調我相信卓院長應該也認同"},{"start":1608.908,"end":1630,"text":"做得好 大家會幫你倒選團 不用你自己自誇自擂自吹但如果做不好 只想要粉飾太平的話 民眾沒有辦法接受那今年 全中央部會總預算高達14億9千多萬 將近15億暴增了5億9千萬我想請教 宣傳費用多了5億多6億 剛我這個需要"},{"start":1632.859,"end":1648.539,"text":"報告委員去年的9億多是去年 網路我甚至沒有講說網絡的預算但我想是說電視這一些相關的部分即便您有講到只增加了3億多3億多不是錢嗎"},{"start":1650.067,"end":1674.054,"text":"3億多可以有多少營養午餐3億多能夠有多少血統補助這難道不是費用嗎為什麼要增加那麼多3億多裡面內政部因為打詐相關的編列2.3億院長你就講打詐我就來討論打詐昨天的新聞101董作他講什麼他說廖恆化有種不要下架他要下架什麼"},{"start":1676.475,"end":1694.388,"text":"下架詐騙集團假冒他的名字的網路廣告我們看下一張我們已經打詐三法通過了打詐五法通過了昨天 賈詠潔都還在他個人臉書上又在貼講說現在有詐騙集團冒他的名做這樣的一個詐騙廣告我說實在話"},{"start":1697.56,"end":1705.106,"text":"我們編列5億10億的預算去宣傳打詐底不上一個賈詠潔她在臉書上發一篇她又被詐騙的文"},{"start":1706.736,"end":1708.898,"text":"打詐的宣傳要增加從原本的1400多萬變成兩億三千萬增加將近20倍"},{"start":1729.308,"end":1731.089,"text":"來 院長我再來跟你討論本期的選區啊淡水"},{"start":1758.069,"end":1759.25,"text":"院長請問知道這個事情嗎?"},{"start":1772.856,"end":1799.958,"text":"這個牽扯到治安甚至是國安的問題我覺得這個要整體的規劃整體的規劃才能反昇出一個一個是主委說要六千名志工一個海巡署馬上出來講說沒有規劃報告委員沒有 完全沒有六千名海巡志工這件事我們也不瞭解這個新聞怎麼來的所以管碧玲主委表示沒有 完全沒有那這個新聞是假新聞囉不知道 連署長都不知道沒有任何人知道這個新聞怎麼來的那要不要跟這個媒體來提告"},{"start":1800.939,"end":1828.813,"text":"我們沒有提告但是我們有澄清但是6000名海巡志工在這次事件完全沒有人聽說過院長那我只請教因為我們發生事件之後我還是想叫我們各同防護海巡我們也各同支持海巡那今年海巡有編列了1億的紅外線的相關的建置計畫太少了1億太少了是但是至少我們在所謂的紅色海灘裡面你要建置吧到目前為止18座紅色海灘我們建置了幾處"},{"start":1829.733,"end":1834.615,"text":"但是至少本席講到的本席的淡水以及林口這兩個紅色海灘也是我們之前國防部所規劃的都沒有建置阿"},{"start":1873.609,"end":1874.79,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢：也謝謝卓院長的備詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:18:49 - 11:50:09","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154877"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:16:57","end_time":"2024-09-24T11:18:41+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154868","gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時2分）謝謝院長，麻煩請行政院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：院長好。我接下來要質詢的題目因為涵蓋的部會非常多，所以請各部會首長坐在位置上仔細聆聽，然後看簡報，這樣子就可以。","院長，這是去年6月份行政院的新聞稿標題，政府希望藉由提高軍公教的待遇帶動民間企業跟進，全民共享經濟成長的果實，我們文化健康站、巷弄長照站的照服員從2019年調薪到三萬三之後，已經整整五年沒有再調薪了，所以我希望可以立即檢討加薪的問題，因為這攸關上萬名照服員的權益。","還有就是有關於各部會所主管的法人、基金會以及公司是不是有依照行政院政策方向落實調薪？這是我調查各部會的情形，有很多部會的法人、基金會或者是公司根本就沒有調薪，甚至有些法人沒有調薪的理由竟然是因為績效不好，我覺得他們完全搞錯政府的方向，政府是希望帶動民間企業跟進的，是希望調整整個薪資的水平，希望透過調整、提升整個薪資架構，讓全民共享經濟成長的果實，所以我們在這裡討論的並不是績效的問題。","接下來我們特別看一下勞動部的部分，因為勞動部只有1個法人而已，今年6月份本席特別和衛環委員會的同仁一起去考察重建之家的時候，我在現場已經有特別提出、也特別提醒董事長，現在兼任的董事長也就是職安署的署長，本席特別提醒他這個問題，董事長還當著大家的面很大聲的同意，我不知道到底他回去是怎麼回報部長這個問題，為什麼這個法人到現在遲遲都沒有調薪？我想政府想要提高勞工薪資水平的美意，勞動部其實責無旁貸，有一個帶頭的作用，這樣子會比較有說服力，如果有更多部會的這些法人單位，大家都不願意為勞工加薪的話，這樣怎麼帶動整個民間的企業去加薪、去跟進？我相信我們勞動部長一定是很願意來做領頭羊，只是我不太理解你們的董事長回去怎麼跟您報告的，所以今天勞動部在這裡失去了一個帶頭的機會，而且我還有一些資料現在質詢沒有秀出來，這些部會裡面有很多像是勞務承攬、計畫用人的方式，長期聘用臨時人員，這些臨時人員的薪資都相當低，我們很多部會也都沒有為他們加薪，我在這邊特別花時間整理，讓院長了解一下這個情形。","院長，我希望這些單位大家都可以馬上來檢討，第一、明年軍公教調薪3%，這些單位都可以跟進調薪3%；第二個訴求，今年沒有調整4%的這些單位，特別是有人拍胸脯保證的應該要馬上調整，而且要回溯到今年1月1日。我提出的這些訴求，請教院長不知道能不能同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，各部會所屬的相關法人，它的性質或許都有所不同，所以調薪的狀況也是不相同的，但是在行政院公布了調薪的結構之後，我覺得我們不僅是軍公教人員調薪，也希望民間的企業也一併能夠把薪資往上調。所以在這個情況底下，我認為即使它性質不相同，還是要盡自己經營的績效能夠往上調，不過勞動部部長剛剛跟我說，它所屬的這些都已經調了，是不是請勞動部說明一下它的性質，再請人總說明一下？"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，謝謝委員關心，我們已經決定在今年10月1號會召開董事會，就是預防重建中心，董事長已經有跟我報告了，我們也讓他要在10月1號召開董事會，明年1月1號開始會調薪4%。"],["陳委員瑩：明年1月1號？"],["何部長佩珊：對，而且會在明年……"],["陳委員瑩：所以這個差距就是我為什麼會有第二個訴求，因為這個本來今年可能7月就可以做的事情，結果拖到明年，拖到明年之後，他們等於喪失了今年加薪的權利，我想這個部分還是請你們再回去好好地重新檢討研議一下，畢竟你們有帶頭的作用。"],["何部長佩珊：我知道委員在關切去年有調而我們未調的狀況，我們在明年年中也會再一併補足3%。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝，沒關係，我們後續……"],["卓院長榮泰：請人總回答一下，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["陳委員瑩：麻煩請簡短。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員，我想剛才委員關心的大概有幾個不同的組織型態，一個是政府捐助20%以上的財團法人，它整個調薪的機制要經過董事會通過以後再報主管機關核准，事實上它在調薪上有一定的一個遊戲規則；另外，關於事業機構的話，就是跟它的經營績效是相關的，事實上有時候政府是調4%，事業的經營績效如果好的話，它是可以調到5%、6%之類的，因為它是績效導向的。所以不同的組織型態，它在調薪的部分是看績效，或者看它的公司章程直接來做一個不一樣的規範。"],["陳委員瑩：好，這個可以理解，總之，我想今天這個主題也是給大家刺激一下、提醒一下，讓我們來做一個檢討、讓政府來帶頭所屬的這些單位，好嗎？謝謝。","我接下來要請原民會主委，院長也請留步，其他可以請回。這個問題我想大家傷腦筋很久了，但其實它沒有那麼複雜，真的。院長，禁伐補償的法定支出本來就會依規定核發，但是因為有立委覺得明年的禁伐補償應該要編列到42億元，所以當他們看到預算書之後，覺得怎麼只有27億元，加減乘除算一算，少了15億，所以那天就衝到臺前，罵了院長，也罵了原民會主委。","我幫大家整理一下，主委，這個是禁伐補償歷年經費核發的資料，除了第一年剛開始之外，過去的7年每年都是公務預算跟基金共同支應，在去年基金的支出甚至比公務預算還要多，我們其實只要把過去的資料攤開來看一下，就一清二楚了。主委，所以這個過去核發禁伐補償的經費，是不是就像本席所說的，循往例辦理？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我想這段時間有很多的溝通，也克服了很多的困難，我是不是請主委也跟大家報告一下，這段時間，當然我們委員也很努力，你們這邊目前努力溝通的過程、經過及進度如何？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，禁伐補償是從105年就開始補償我們原住民的林農，從2萬到3萬，到今年6月3號大院通過。"],["陳委員瑩：這些調整也是因應我們物價通膨，這是一個主要的原因嘛，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，因為今年6月大院通過的是1公頃要變6萬，那麼它本來要變成從21億最少要增加到45億左右。明年會裡面我們編了28億，原則上我們的基金還可以調度大概17億左右，所以應該是夠發放明年的禁伐補償。"],["陳委員瑩：但我比較關心的是，就這個部分，你們是不是有跟主計那邊討論過？最後也是要問一下院長這邊的態度，因為眾說紛紜，主計的部分，主委是不是也有對過了？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個跟委員報告，剛剛主委說的是，現在針對今年的預算，他有他的想法，但是我們要回歸到預算制定、編列的原則上面來看。行政院制定、編列預算，立法院審議預算，有任何增加的預算、新的增加預算，都必須要有新的財源。如果因為立法院一個審議的決議或是一個建議，就把預算整個提升，行政院沒有找到相同的財源的話，對於行政院預算的完整性，是不合憲法規定的，我們是在這個原則底下辦理。但是另外一個方式，就是由3萬調整到6萬，這種百分之百的調幅，在任何實際的政策跟補貼政策當中都少見。","所以今年我們在大院審查的過程當中曾經提出，如果能夠由3萬調整到4萬，行政院願意來吸收這4萬，在預算裡面表現，但是在審查的過程當中卻沒有被重視，然而行政院還是負責任地依照過去的承諾編了4萬，這4萬之後原民會就必須要在內部做調整，至於做怎麼樣的調整，這是原民會內部的作業，因為我們要維持的是行政院制定跟編列預算的完整性。如果此例一開，其他各部會都用這種方式，透過委員的方式來增加預算，那明年、往後的預算，將無可控制，所以我們希望兩院之間要有討論的空間，而不是用一個表決的方式就把預算提高。如果這個是從30萬提高到60萬，300萬提高到600萬，行政院也無法接受。"],["陳委員瑩：好，這個我們可以充分理解，因為畢竟是大水庫的概念，我們的總預算是固定的，所以現在要回到主委這邊，剛剛院長有很明確地表示了，就是不足的部分，原民會自己內部要去做調整，這個調整的部分，不曉得主委這邊有沒有遇到什麼困難，或者是有做到什麼樣的進度？或者是你們還需要更多的時間再做討論？我想今天就藉著大院總質詢把話講清楚，因為外面整天大家打來打去，當然我跟伍麗華都是箭靶啦！但是我們自己也是提案人，我要在這裡重申我的立場，我們還是跟原住民站在一起，我不管這中間誰說了什麼，我們是原住民選出來的民意代表，就是跟原住民站在一起，所以我要給主委加油。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您跟伍麗華委員長期為原住民發言爭取權益，大家都看到了，我也願意在這個領域當中能夠跟委員好好的來檢討，甚至我們好好來制定對原住民最大的權利。但是如果在一般原來的原民會預算當中，卻占據了40%的預算拿去做單一補助的話，那對其他的原住民權益上是有所不當的，我們當時的理由是這個樣子，但是……"],["陳委員瑩：這個我們可以理解，但是主委經過這段時間的一些調整還有跟主計的溝通，你們是不是還差最後一步要再跟院長這邊來做最後的確認跟報告進度，我想如果他們試算出來是許可的，那是不是院長也可以用您當初秉持的柔軟的心來同意他們的編列？而且我想我見證了最早行政院在討論說要不要提覆議，院長講了一句話說：「我實在是不忍心。」我知道院長真的對原住民很好，所以我想釋憲的部分應該也是泛指有很多的肉桶法案，而不是針對禁伐補償，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不希望預算的編列是用這樣的方式，這個是不合法、不合憲的，我們希望大家能夠很理性的來討論，這一筆預算在原民會裡面，當初我們希望原民會應該就原民會裡面業務的優先順序來做最好的選擇。"],["陳委員瑩：對，我想是這樣，主委，你把話也講出去了，那到底這筆預算你要怎麼去調整處理，有沒有窒礙難行的地方？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，因為這個要發放也是明年9月底才會發放，所以我們還有時間，我們願意來拜託院裡面來給予協助。當然我絕對相信我們的政府是關心、是愛原住民的，因為我們的預算在今年度已經成長了13%，優於其他的部會，這個部分我想我們還是繼續努力來爭取。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：所以現在說不行都是太早，說沒有都太早嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！所以大家就先不要在那裡製造很多奇奇怪怪的新聞，我們就給他們一點時間做溝通，把預算補齊，我們為你們加油，這樣子好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝……"],["陳委員瑩：好，不要把原住民的禁伐補償當作藉口退回總預算，我們還有很多救命錢在裡面啊！這是一樣的道理嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的、是的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第13號的洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137501_00010"}},"委員名稱":"陳瑩","duration":1017,"start_time":"2024-09-24T11:01:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdc7d5d95287b89b95550b9d97fc20bb9fd6e84e674c262f96f22d889c8458c1e55ec2f4bd2b2985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.02221875,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.16096875,"end":33.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.90721875,"end":37.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.829718750000005,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.994093750000005,"end":58.469093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.907843750000005,"end":64.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.24034375000001,"end":71.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.38659375,"end":93.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.90659375,"end":94.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.91909375,"end":147.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.33284375000002,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.32971875,"end":187.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.11971875,"end":198.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.48096875000002,"end":199.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.16846875000002,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.16409375,"end":208.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.21346875,"end":238.39034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.87971875000002,"end":294.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.03534375000004,"end":301.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.62096875000003,"end":302.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.93721875,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.24909375000004,"end":309.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.55221875,"end":312.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.38284375,"end":314.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":314.88471875000005,"end":319.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.45784375,"end":320.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.75721875,"end":321.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.47846875000005,"end":329.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.08909375,"end":332.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.24471875,"end":336.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.88159375000004,"end":336.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.83909375,"end":353.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.22034375000004,"end":357.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.23721875,"end":355.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.39721875000004,"end":363.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.60284375000003,"end":382.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.29596875000004,"end":383.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.98784375,"end":393.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.86034375,"end":390.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.74159375000005,"end":396.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.12971875000005,"end":394.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.36159375,"end":395.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.69909375000003,"end":395.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.71596875,"end":397.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":397.67346875000004,"end":397.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.69034375,"end":398.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":397.74096875000004,"end":397.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.80846875000003,"end":397.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":398.55096875000004,"end":408.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":408.91221875,"end":413.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":413.21534375000005,"end":445.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.37471875000006,"end":462.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.51971875000004,"end":466.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.29971875,"end":467.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.47659375,"end":470.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.96159375,"end":476.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.61471875,"end":506.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.19659375000003,"end":507.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.69409375000004,"end":527.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.33659375,"end":534.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.1372187500001,"end":544.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":544.63784375,"end":545.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.5109687500001,"end":565.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":566.01846875,"end":567.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":567.68909375,"end":569.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":569.9672187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巷弄長照站的趙服員從2019年調薪到三萬三之後已經整整五年沒有再調薪了所以我希望可以立即檢討加薪的問題因為這有關上萬名我們這個趙服員的權益那麼"},{"start":95.172,"end":122.708,"text":"還有就是有關於各部會所主管的法人基金會以及公司是不是有依照行政院政策方向落實調薪這是我調查各部會的情形那有很多部會的法人基金會或者是公司公司他們根本就沒有調薪那甚至在有些法人沒有調薪的理由呢竟然是因為績效不好"},{"start":123.368,"end":152.568,"text":"那我覺得他們完全搞錯政府的方向政府是希望帶動民間企業跟進的是希望調整整個薪資的水平那希望透過調整提升整個薪資架構讓全民共享經濟成長的果實所以我們在這裡討論的並不是一個績效的問題那麼接下來我特別在我們看一下勞動部的部分"},{"start":153.588,"end":176.816,"text":"因為勞動部只有一個法人而已那今年6月份本席特別和整個和我們未還委員會的這個同仁一起去考察重建之家的時候我在現場已經有特別提出也特別提醒董事長也就是現在這個兼任董事長就是治安署的署長"},{"start":178.377,"end":199.039,"text":"我特別提醒他這個問題那這個董事長還當著大家的面很大聲的來同意那我不知道就是說到底他是怎麼回去回報部長這個問題為什麼這個法人到現在遲遲都沒有調心所以我想"},{"start":201.301,"end":225.517,"text":"政府想要提高這個勞工的薪資水平的美意勞動部其實責無旁貸有一個帶頭的作用所以這樣子會比較有說服力那麼如果有更多的部會的這些法人單位如果大家都不願意為這個勞工加薪的話那這樣怎麼去帶動整個民間的企業去加薪去跟進那我相信我們勞動部長"},{"start":226.718,"end":250.866,"text":"他一定是很願意來做這個領頭羊只是說我不太理解你們的董事長回去怎麼跟您報告的所以今天勞動部在這裡失去了一個帶頭的機會而且這些資料我還有一些資料我在質詢我現在沒有秀出來這些部會裡面有很多是像勞務承攬還有計劃用人的方式他長期聘用這個臨時人員"},{"start":252.626,"end":272.446,"text":"這些臨時人員的薪資都相當低我們很多的部會也都沒有為他們加薪我在這邊特別花時間整理讓院長瞭解一下這個情形所以院長我希望這些單位我們大家可以馬上來檢討第一明年軍公教調薪3%"},{"start":273.827,"end":294.771,"text":"這些單位都可以跟進調薪3%第二個訴求就是這些單位今年沒有調整4%的特別是有人拍胸脯保證的那個應該要馬上調整而且要回溯到今年1月1日我想就提出這些訴求請教院長不知道能不能同意"},{"start":296.069,"end":311.641,"text":"好 謝謝委員各部會所屬相關的法人他的性質或許都有所不同所以條新的狀況是不相同的但是在行政院公佈了這個條新的結構之後"},{"start":313.402,"end":332.355,"text":"我覺得我們不僅是公務人員、軍公教人員調薪我們也希望民間的企業也一併能夠把薪資往上調所以在這個情況底下我還是認為即使他性質不相同還是要盡自己的經營的績效能夠往上調不過據知這個勞動部剛剛部長跟我說他所屬的這些都已經調了"},{"start":338.437,"end":351.343,"text":"委員關心我們已經決定那個在今年11月1號會召開董事會就重建預防重建中心董事會已經有跟我報告了那麼我們也讓他要在11月1號召開董事會對明年1月1號開始會挑釁4%"},{"start":354.229,"end":382.388,"text":"從明年1月1號開始對所以這個差距這就是我為什麼會有第二個訴求那因為這個本來今年可能7月就可以做的事情那結果拖到明年那拖到明年之後他們等於喪失了今年加薪的這個權利我想這個部分我還是請你們再回去好好的再重新檢討研議一下畢竟這個你們有帶頭的作用"},{"start":383.305,"end":412.758,"text":"好 我知道委員在關切前面去年有調而我們未調的狀況那麼我們會在明年年中也會再一併補足3%好 謝謝那沒關係謝謝我們後續主任總回答一下好不好再說謝謝委員我想剛才委員關心的大概有幾個不同的組織形態一個是政府兼注20%以上財團法人他整個調薪的機制要經過董事會通過以後再"},{"start":413.956,"end":438.486,"text":"主管機關核准那事實上他在調薪他有一定的一個遊戲規則另外關於事業機構的話就是跟他的經營績效是相關的事實上有時候政府是調4%那事業的經營績效如果好的話他是可以調到5% 6%之類的因為他是以百那個績效導向的所以不同的組織形態他在調薪的部分是"},{"start":439.045,"end":465.87,"text":"有看績效或者看他的公司章程直接來做一個不一樣的規範好 這個可以理解那總之我想今天這個主題也是給大家刺激一下提醒一下那我們來做一個檢討讓政府來帶頭好嗎所屬的這些單位好 謝謝那我接下來要請這個園民會主委院長也請留步其他可以請回"},{"start":471.222,"end":488.258,"text":"這個問題 我想大家商量已經很久了但其實它沒有那麼複雜啦 真的院長 這個禁法補償的這個法定支出本來就會依規定核發那但是因為有立委覺得呢就是明年的這個禁法補償應該要編列到42億元"},{"start":492.782,"end":507.669,"text":"所以當他們看到預算書之後覺得說怎麼只有27億元加減乘除算一算少了15億所以那天就衝到台前罵了院長也罵了原民會主委那我幫大家整理一下"},{"start":508.729,"end":534.117,"text":"各位這個是進法補償歷年的經費核發的資料除了第一年剛開始之外過去的七年每年都是公務預算跟基金共同支應甚至在去年的基金的支出比公務預算是還要多的我們其實只要把過去的資料我們就攤開來看一下就一清二楚了"},{"start":536.619,"end":536.78,"text":"對 公務員報告對"},{"start":546.89,"end":564.958,"text":"我想這段時間有很多的溝通也克服很多的困難我是不是請主委也跟大家報告一下就是說你們這段時間當然我們委員也很努力你們這邊努力溝通的過程經過進度目前如何"},{"start":566.312,"end":592.285,"text":"跟委員報告這個進華補償是從105年開始就來這個做就是補償我們的原住民的林農從2萬到3萬到今年的這個6月3號我們大宴通過那這邊的這些調整也是因應我們的物價通膨的一個是主要的原因是"},{"start":593.706,"end":593.846,"text":"主席"},{"start":611.852,"end":624.77,"text":"陳瑩議員"},{"start":626.252,"end":643.722,"text":"應該是夠花放明年的進華補償我比較關心的是就是說這個部分你們是不是有跟主席那邊有討論過然後最後也是要問一下院長這邊的態度因為眾說紛雲那那個主席的部分是不是主委那邊也有對過了"},{"start":645.042,"end":666.625,"text":"這個跟委員報告剛剛主委他說的是說現在針對今年的預算他有他的想法但是我們要回歸到預算制定編列的原則上面來看行政院制定編列預算立法院審議這個預算有任何增加預算新的增加預算都必須要有新的裁員"},{"start":667.83,"end":668.09,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":686.952,"end":703.607,"text":"另外一個方式就是由3萬調整到6萬這種百分之百的條幅在任何的實際政策跟補貼政策當中都少見都少見所以今年我們在大院審查過程當中我們曾經提出說如果能夠"},{"start":704.528,"end":719.035,"text":"由3萬調整到4萬行政院願意來吸收這樣的4萬在預算裡面表現但是在審查過程當中卻沒有被重視因此但是行政院還是負責任的依照過去的承諾我們編了4萬這4萬之後"},{"start":722.165,"end":722.185,"text":"委員長陳瑩"},{"start":738.3,"end":758.346,"text":"各部會都用這種方式通過委員方式來增加預算那明年往後的預算將無可控制所以我們希望兩院之間要這種討論的空間而不是用一個表決的方式就把預算提高那如果這個是從30萬提高到60萬300萬提高到600萬行政院也無法接受"},{"start":759.701,"end":788.775,"text":"好 這個我們充分可以理解因為畢竟大水庫概念我們的總預算是固定的那所以現在要回到這個主委這邊那剛剛院長有很明確的有很明確的表示了就是不足的部分 園民會自己內部要去做調整那這個調整的部分不曉得主委這邊有沒有遇到什麼困難或者是有做到什麼樣的進度"},{"start":789.375,"end":804.832,"text":"或者是你們還需要更多的時間在做討論我想今天就藉著這個大院總質詢把話講清楚因為外面齁整天大家打來打去啦那當然我跟吳麗華都是劍拔啦"},{"start":805.573,"end":822.531,"text":"但我們自己也是提案人我要在這裡重申我的立場我們還是跟原住民站在一起我不管這中間誰說了什麼我們就是代表我們是原住民選出來的民意代表就是跟原住民站在一起所以我要給主委加油"},{"start":823.842,"end":844.115,"text":"委員您跟吳立華委員長期為原住民發言爭取權益這個大家都看到了那我也願意在這個領域當中能夠跟委員好好的來檢討甚至我們好好的來制定對原住民最大的權利但是如果在一般原來的原民會的預算當中"},{"start":845.235,"end":873.933,"text":"卻占據了40%的預算拿去做單一的補助的話那對其他的原住民權益上是有所不當的我們當時的理由是這個樣子這個我們可以理解但是我想主委經過這段時間的一些調整還有跟主計的溝通我想你們是不是還差最後一步要再跟這個院長這邊來做最後的確認跟報告進度那我想如果是"},{"start":874.733,"end":891.926,"text":"如果他們試算出來是許可的那是不是院長也可以用您當初秉持的柔軟的心來同意他們的編列而且我想我見證了最早就是說我們在討論要不要這個"},{"start":893.447,"end":895.868,"text":"我們不希望預算的編列是用這樣的方式這個是不合法不合憲的那我們希望大家能夠"},{"start":918.51,"end":945.533,"text":"很理性的來討論那這一筆預算在原民會裡面當初我們希望原民會是說你應該就你原民會裡面業務的優先順序來做你最好的選擇我想是這樣就是說主委你把話也講出去了那到底這一筆預算你要怎麼去調整處理有沒有自愛難行的地方"},{"start":946.633,"end":951.369,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個是要發放也是明年9月底才"},{"start":978.148,"end":1002.873,"text":"現在收入期都是太高了,都沒有收太早所以大家就先不要再讓你製造很多奇奇怪怪的新聞我們就給他們一點時間做周兆,把預算補齊,我們就可以為你們加油這樣好不好?不要把這個走預算退回走預算,把這個原住民的居家補償當作藉口退回走預算,我們還有很多救疫錢在裡面啊"},{"start":1007.861,"end":1008.061,"text":"陳英文指詢：卓議員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:01:44 - 11:18:41","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154868"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:31:18","end_time":"2024-09-24T11:01:37+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154867","gazette":{"lineno":521,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（10時30分）謝謝院長，請行政院卓院長、勞動部何部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、勞動部何部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員國成：院長，我看你每一次來到立法院都西裝筆挺，穿得端端正正，我非常欣賞。"],["卓院長榮泰：那是對院長的指示，還有對大院的尊敬。"],["林委員國成：我也要特別強調，在我們韓院長的響應之下，院長，你看一下我是打領帶又穿西裝，為什麼？一樣，立法委員尊重行政院，行政院尊重立法院，這是基本的為官之道、禮數。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員國成：所以本席還要再強調一次，台灣民眾黨理性、務實、科學，所以我在問政的時候絕對是以理性方式來探討，但是有一點，勞工出身雖然穿上西裝，但是我有一個個性，也就是當對我提的問題答非所問，不針對問題，我們勞工就會易怒，所以我還是要拜託院長，我提問題的時候，我們是共同探討，為了臺灣、為了所有的民眾，我們共同討論出行政院可以做的方法。院長，我想我這個拜託，你應該不會反對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會很誠實的也很忠實的反映委員的垂詢，我如果答得不夠完整，我會請部長來加強。"],["林委員國成：謝謝院長、謝謝部長。我很關心臺灣一千一百多萬勞工的問題，所以我的標題很清楚，也就是政府說得到要做得到，千萬勞工才會安心，其實從民進黨執政這兩年來，對於勞工勞保基金的處理方式，我個人覺得是負責跟滿意的。我要談的很簡單，就是勞保基金的問題，當然你們也有撥補，但是我今天要跟院長報告的是，過去勞保基金虧損連連，我希望所有執政過的政府都要概括承受，絕對不是勞工繳少的問題而造成，所以勞工是無辜的，這一點我相信院長應該很瞭解。因為你也從立法委員、從基層選舉出來，你可以瞭解，不敢講勞苦功高，但勞工對於整個社會是有幫助的，所以最後一塊勞保基金的棺材本一定要確實做到保障，這是我今天對院長、對部長的特別懇求，對於勞工這個部分，我們要有實質作為，確保勞工勞保基金對他的保障，這一點院長應該認同吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：勞工是臺灣發展經濟最重要的資產，從過去歷任的政府到現在，對勞工的照顧從來不敢怠慢，也只有一步一步地更加強，包括勞保基金、各種勞工權益，以及現在我們持續提高的最低工資等等，我覺得都是一代一代的政府持續墊步上去的，我覺得也應該跟勞工朋友們能夠談一談，未來政府必須做更多、更好、更快的是什麼事情，我們願意來聆聽。"],["林委員國成：OK。院長，我常常講我個人對你是尊敬的。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["林委員國成：但是有些政策如果你違背的時候，當然我也是對你有所質疑啦！但是我們要替臺灣人做事，當然就針對問題來談問題，所以我還是要拜託院長，本席還有國民黨、民進黨都有同樣的共識，也就是現在勞保條例第六十六條撥補的部分是行政院長，也是你們決定自動撥補去挽救勞保基金。但是本席認為，既然你們這兩、三年來都有在撥補，撥補是危機的處理，但在法的立場完完全全是行政作為，所以本席率先跟我們院會裡面的同仁提議勞保條例第六十六條的修法，也就是把撥補常態化、撥補法制化。院長，讓這個撥補入法，我想聽聽你的意見、聽聽部長的意見。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員垂詢，非常肯定委員一直支持我們撥補勞保基金，目前總統在520就進行宣示：只要政府在，勞保就不會倒。在這個總統的宣示底下，院長、我們也承諾在114年度的總預算裡面，就編列一千三百億的預算……"],["林委員國成：我知道、我知道。部長，你們現在有在做，剛才我也跟院長說明了，你們都有在做。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["林委員國成：我提第六十六條，只是把它法制化，也就是現在勞保條例第六十六條當中是沒有的，但是本席已經提了這個法，當然最後還是要行政機關……我認為立法院通過的東西只要行政機關不要，因為我很怕又要提釋憲，所以乾脆我們就講清楚，如果這個入法是對整個法制、對勞工是有保障的，倒不如你們就贊成，當然我們這個程序會繼續走下去。院長，我的意思是你們現在都有做，但是我建議把它入法。這個是第六十六條的撥補。","另外我還有同一個案，就是修改勞保條例第六十九條，第六十九條是什麼？在十年前勞工有一段時間，一天到晚恐嚇勞工勞保基金快要倒！勞保基金快要倒！其實，這對一千一百多萬有投保的勞工而言，心有多酸，心有多恐懼，所以我也希望把第六十九條入法，也就是不管是陳院長、不管是卓院長，甚至於許銘春部長跟何部長，你們都同聲的保證勞保不會倒、勞工一定領到他的棺材本，這一點我要給你們肯定，但本席還是要拜託。因為我提第六十九條是由政府最終給付，讓一千一百萬的勞工知道、也了解政府已經下了法定的政府最終給付，所以這一點我特別要讓卓院長、何部長了解，我提的這個案是你們現在都有在做的，所以這點我希望也不要再提釋憲。講清楚、說明白，我想都是為了勞工好，讓勞工安心，政府也盡心，讓其一團和氣，勞工的問題解決就等於解決社會二分之一的問題。卓院長，我剛才已經說明這麼清楚，對於入法，你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：一句話，就是我們對勞保這個基金，除了撥補之外，還有很多其他多元的配套可以來運用，所以現在只能跟委員說的是，政府不負責，沒有人可以負責。"],["林委員國成：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以剛剛部長講政府在，勞保不會倒，而且我們也會想辦法對勞工要更好。"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝卓院長，因為你也是接地氣，勞工要的不多，只要政府有作為，勞工自然就會放心，所以這一塊我要拜託卓院長、拜託何部長，當我們在立法院處理勞保條例第六十六條、第六十九條有關程序的時候，既然行政機關、院長也這麼講、也認同，我希望這個會很順利地來入法。這入法本來就是你們有在做的，讓勞工覺得本身得到卓院長跟何部長絕對肯定的安心，所以我希望政府盡心、勞工安心，這個政策能夠去做好，好不好？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會靈活地運用勞保基金，謝謝。"],["林委員國成：好，接下來我們請教育部鄭部長。何部長不要走。我現在要跟你談的這些範圍或許很大，但是這個是一個社會問題。卓院長，我剛才才在稱讚你接地氣，但是有些事情你沒有為官、沒有當行政院長的時候，你沒有辦法做，但是當你有機會當了中華民國的行政院長，就有辦法去做，這是什麼？政策的問題。我要跟你談的就是技職教育萎縮以後，臺灣產業真的是非常有危機，有些人跟我講：林國成，你是勞工出身，為什麼要談這個議題？這個議題很重要，產業倒勞工就倒，勞工倒產業就倒，所以息息相關。我要跟院長說明的、跟兩位部長說明的是，技職的重要性。好，接下來，我要考考試。賴清德總統在7月21號的開幕典禮，我要請教何部長，賴總統怎麼說？"],["何部長佩珊：總統在當時就指示，他說臺灣未來的產業，其實也必須奠基在技職教育的發展之上，即便是高科技產業。"],["林委員國成：好，來，鄭部長、教育部長，技職教育跟你也有關，請問一下，你知不知道賴清德總統講這些話？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我想這一個總統……"],["林委員國成：你不要你想，總統怎麼講，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我跟委員報告，總統不只重視技職人才培育，而且他這一次還安排要比照奧運的選手，在總統府裡宴請參與國際技能競賽的所有代表，也接待這些所有的……"],["林委員國成：好，鄭部長……"],["鄭部長英耀：表示總統是非常重視的。"],["林委員國成：哎呀！你現在只有了解卓院長，你都還不了解賴總統，這樣不行啦！他在說技職教育非常重要，不是只有像你講的這種冠冕堂皇的官話。部長，我為什麼請你上來，就是讓你知道這技職教育已經失傳20年都沒有重視，所以非常重要。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上，我上來就特別提到一個……"],["林委員國成：對啦！我剛才已經講過，勞工出身很易怒……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們對技職人才……"],["林委員國成：聽了不爽快就會馬上發脾氣。來，卓院長，你同不同意總統講這些話？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然同意，而且我們要把它化為政策來執行。"],["林委員國成：好，OK，院長，那我們就來繼續談下去。既然都同意了，那我們就來探討一個比較客觀的問題，技職能力，學生為什麼會不青睞？這叫做什麼？就是我們教育政策出問題，還有教育連貫性不實在，所以才會產生這個問題。我們就來看看這個問題在哪邊，我提供給卓院長去做政策的決策，才有辦法指示勞動部跟教育部，要把它連貫起來，因為教育跟技職是息息相關的。","說實在啦！我再度重申，技職教育是臺灣經濟奇蹟的締造者，這個締造者當然我們要去引導，不然的話，怎麼樣去締造？我在想不管從50年代開始，從重工業起家，到60年代人才的培育，到70年代高科技的培育，這個方向都是對的，可是有一點，50年代還OK，沒有問題，60年代在技職教育還好。據我個人所研究，吳京部長在這個部分跟行政院長報告、跟總統報告，是技職教育做得最好的一段，所以提供給部長去參考。那段時間，第一個，哪有什麼移工的問題啦！沒有，為什麼？畢業就是就業，為什麼？技職教育做得非常好，所以那段時間，50年代、60年代跟70年代，當然70年代開始從高科技產業去培養，可是技職教育連貫性是不足的，我特別要讓教育部鄭部長了解。雖然吳京部長已經卸任，但是他確實在技職教育部分做得非常到位、非常連結，跟產業是連結的。","接下來，我說實在，院長，沒有技職教育就沒有今天的台積電，院長，這句話，你同意吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：同意。"],["林委員國成：好，所以台積電現在在世界各國是一個護國神山，這個是什麼？當初如果沒有政府正確方向去引導，哪有這些工程師？哪有今天的台積電？我為什麼會提這個？主要是給卓院長去做政策方向的決策，你如果沒有正確的方向，永遠都是在那邊搞。至於教改成不成功，我們都不要談，成不成功我相信我不用問院長，你也知道，為什麼要回復50年代、60年代做得非常好的技職教育？為什麼？就是未來……到現在為止，部長，你沒有發現到大家都要用移工嗎？你現在壓力很大的，不管是十萬個、二十萬個，現在的移工高達這麼多，不管是營造業，不管是旅館業，連開公車都需要外勞，連台電在修理電線都需要外勞，這是為什麼？就是我們技職教育失敗嘛！所以這二十年來完全是失敗的。卓院長，我語重心長，我們看到的是這些，根本就是教育連貫失敗，技職教育是很失敗的。我把這個時間給院長，對於我剛才跟你報告這些技職教育的事情，本席到現在為止提出來的，哪一點不符合實際？院長，來，你來幫我說。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。委員能夠關心技職教育，就表示委員對很多問題深入地了解，現在已經指出問題。技職教育在過去幾年真的是呈現一個中空的狀態，不管是學生的人數、學校的設備都不足以因應現在產業的需求，我不願意從少子化這個角度來看，雖然它是一個事實，我願意說的是，我們整個產業結構能不能跟技職教育銜接在一起，其中兩項，一個就是技職教育能不能提供很好的誘因，讓希望學得一技之長的年輕朋友可以進到這個體系裡面；第二，技職教育的相關教學設備跟師資趕不趕得上時代，我知道很多學校所做的實驗到外面來是接不上的，表示我們在設備的更新上是慢了。另外，有沒有足夠的師資，如果專業的師資不夠，業師能不能請進來，並且增加量的部分，用經驗來傳承，我覺得這些都應該馬上下手去執行。"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝院長。","接下來，問題在這裡，重高中，輕技職，破解升學迷思，所以在這裡有一個數據提供給卓院長，學歷越高，失業越高，知道嗎？這就是技職教育的重要性，這部分我特別要提供給卓院長瞭解。","我現在要來考試一下，他山之石，臺灣要借鏡，人家好的地方，我們當然要借鏡。院長，我們舉例瑞士，它是一個獨立國家，它是一個很小的國家，可是你就從來沒有聽到有勞工抗爭的問題，也沒有聽到他們那邊有發生什麼重大罷工的問題，沒有！他們國家有沒有特色？當然有特色，其他我不談，就談勞工這個部分。院長，我問你，瑞士最出名的手工技藝，你知道是什麼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員是說手錶嗎？"],["林委員國成：對，瑞士就是手錶，你看看一個瑞士、很小的國家，你看它可以行銷勞力士也好、什麼錶也好，行銷到世界各國，可是他們的這些人才從來沒有中斷過，這個叫做什麼？他山之石，臺灣要去借鏡。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員國成：接下來，我們再看看德國，你看德國平常都沒有什麼聲音，但是它有一個好處，什麼好處？師徒一對一教導，一邊上課一邊工作，實習就有薪水，畢業即就業。我還要再請教卓院長，德國什麼東西做得最好？"],["卓院長榮泰：汽車。"],["林委員國成：對嘛！雙B嘛！你看到現在世界各國有沒有缺乏這些人才？沒有耶！它是跟產業結合來做教育以及產業的發展，所以這個部分我們真的要借鏡。這個我們簡單講過，就是對岸，它的經濟、它的作法、政治，我們不談，但是它對於這些就業的事情做得非常到位。我比的就是一些西方國家、歐洲，以及跟臺灣比較接近的對岸，這些都值得我們參考，好的我們用、不好的我們不要用。這裡我們也不得不承認，我舉例，當然也有很多啦，你想一想，就算這麼多的人口也有辦法維繫整個就業市場，這個我們當然也要去研究。","接下來，這很明顯嘛！卓院長，我們技職教育的人才是真的不足，因為我們的政策不重視，就無法培養人才，所以我真的要拜託卓院長，你好好將這個部分成立，叫一個政務委員來負責，好好研究一下臺灣技職教育要不要重新改變。以現在的情況來講，都是紙上談兵、畫餅充飢，完全沒有到位，以及沒有跟產業結合、跟教育結合來真正達到技職人才的發酵。院長，我跟你報告，沒有。因為我們針對問題來談嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：教育部有一些策略。"],["林委員國成：不要啦、我不要聽啦！我要聽卓院長的。"],["卓院長榮泰：私底下再跟委員報告，會後。"],["林委員國成：不是，鄭部長剛才回答我的，他那個就是你送一個書面給我，我有空讀一讀。你給我的答復就是在打官腔！你看看我跟你們談話都很溫和，我很柔情的人耶！但是他給我答話，你看我就馬上放炮他，為什麼？不符合基層的需求。","因為二十年來技職教育已經失敗再失敗，所以我為什麼要提出這個問題問卓院長？因為我也期待卓院長把臺灣技職教育恢復回來，這不是哪一個執政的問題，這是歷史遺業，因為技職教育對於產業如何發展是息息相關的！今天經濟部長不需要上來，最起碼我要讓卓院長知道這個觀念，你才有辦法去指導他們如何改變技職教育。","好啦，最主要幾個問題我也提供給院長，資源投入大小眼，這個你們回去檢討，所以鄭部長不要跟我講說你們有多雄偉的雄心抱負，你都不要跟我說那個啦！現在的問題就很簡單，我們談民進黨執政這八年裡面技職教育根本就是失敗！我們期待在賴總統跟卓院長的領導之下，技職方面有另外一番不一樣的做法跟不一樣的感覺，所以在資源投入大小眼這個部分，我希望你們趕快改進；不符合企業、產學合一完全落空，這個我也要提供給卓院長，好好地針對這個問題來商討；過去雖然我們輕技職，但是針對傳統的觀念，我也希望卓院長能夠在這個地方著墨一下。","如何再出發？我提供幾個拙見，我認為迫切需要的就是什麼？就是技職教育真的要跟教育連貫，會讀書的讀大學、不太想讀書但是他有技能的就在技職，這樣合而為一、唯才適用！這樣的話，臺灣的技職教育跟人才的培育才會成功。以下幾點給院長參考，也就是一、因應未來的趨勢，創造良好的就業環境，這個部長應該也有在做，我也看到；另外就是補充教育人才，鄭部長不好意思，拜託你做給我看！下一次我就會讓你好好講，到現在為止……我也知道你剛接，可是我對以前的部長極度不滿意，為什麼？聽不進去基層需求的聲音，只有聽政策，那政策又失敗，當然這個問題就會失敗，我希望到立法院來是要聽立法委員語重心長給你的良善建議，所以這個部分我希望卓院長……最後一個就是增加技職的教育經費，今年所送來的預算我有去翻一翻，在這個部分還是一樣；最後，我要拜託勞動部跟教育部跨部會合作，與企業共同。","我要拜託卓院長，我提出這些是良善的建議，我希望卓院長重視這個，卓院長，以上這些我給你建議，以及用實例給你比較，我要聽聽卓院長最後要如何指示他們去做？院長，可不可以告訴我？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。幾項當中我現在特別要瞭解的是，有關技職教育經費跟過去的比較，我們有沒有呈現什麼樣經費上的不同或者內容上的不同，但重要的是我要請教育部在作法上要有不同，即使是同樣的預算，作法也要有不同……"],["林委員國成：沒有啦！院長，我要聽你的說法，因為鄭部長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請他跟過去的作法要不同，即使在差不多的預算經費底下，我現在查一下預算經費到底有沒有增加多少，作法要有不同。"],["林委員國成：沒有啦！院長，剩幾分鐘了，我只拜託你，今天聽完我這些建議，你認不認同我們技職教育要加強？"],["卓院長榮泰：完全認同！"],["林委員國成：那你同不同意……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也在加強中，謝謝委員的建議，非常好！"],["林委員國成：對，所有三個……要改變臺灣人才方，就是要從這裡著手，不是今年做，明年就有成果，或許是要三年、五年才會看到，我希望讓老百姓覺得卓榮泰院長做這個政策，還好有他做這個政策，就像李國鼎一樣啊！聯電跟台積電如果不是他去做政策的決定，怎麼會有今天？所以我希望你做這個技職的教育能讓人家覺得還好有卓榮泰院長，所以我希望院長責成這些，做一個專案，然後來做一個統籌、來研究，如果能夠提供的，我們儘量來提供，反正為臺灣人民做事情，是不分黨派的。"],["卓院長榮泰：一定努力，謝謝。"],["林委員國成：我希望院長也有這個觀念，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林國成委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 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一樣立法委員尊重行政院 行政院尊重立法院這是基本的為官之道的禮數"},{"start":95.089,"end":121.525,"text":"所以本席還要再強調一次臺灣民眾黨理性務實科學所以我在問政的時候我絕對是以理性方式來探討但是有一點勞工出身雖然穿上西裝但是我有一個個性也就是當我提問題答非所問不針對問題"},{"start":123.749,"end":147.882,"text":"我們這個勞工就會硬怒所以我還是要拜託院長我提問題的時候我們是共同來探討為了台灣為了所有的民眾我們共同來討論出一個行政院可以做的方法院長我想我這個拜託應該你不會反對吧"},{"start":148.632,"end":177.214,"text":"我會很誠實的很忠實的反映委員的詢詢我如果答得不夠完整我會請部長來加強好 謝謝院長 謝謝部長當然我很關心就是台灣一千一百多萬勞工的問題所以我的標題很清楚也就是政府說得到要做得到千萬勞工才會安心"},{"start":178.294,"end":194.894,"text":"其實從民進黨執政這兩年來我對他對於勞工的勞保基金的處理方式個人覺得是負責跟滿意的"},{"start":196.312,"end":197.033,"text":"老保基金虧損連連"},{"start":216.072,"end":239.207,"text":"我都希望所有執政過的政府都要概括承受絕對不是勞工繳勺的問題而造成所以勞工是無辜的這一點我希望院長應該是很了解因為你也從立法委員從基層選舉出來你可以了解"},{"start":240.087,"end":258.946,"text":"老虎功高不敢講勞工對於整個社會是有幫助的所以最後一塊的勞保基金的棺材本一定要切實去做到一個保障這是我今天對的院長對的部長"},{"start":259.807,"end":282.543,"text":"特別懇求對於勞工這個部分我們要實質的作為確保勞工勞保基金對他的保障這一點 院長你應該認同吧勞工是台灣發展經濟最重要的資產從過去歷任的政府到現在對勞工的照顧從來不敢怠慢"},{"start":283.356,"end":283.696,"text":"所以 院長"},{"start":307.998,"end":322.754,"text":"我常講過我個人對你是尊敬的但是有些政策你如果違背的時候當然我也是對你有所質疑但是我們要替台灣人做事當然就針對問題來談問題所以我還是要拜託院長"},{"start":326.755,"end":345.424,"text":"本席還有我們國民黨民進黨都有同樣的共識也就是現在勞保條例66條撥補的部分是行政院長也是你們決定自動撥補去挽救勞保基金"},{"start":347.725,"end":368.439,"text":"但是本席認為 既然你們這兩三年來都有在撥普那撥普是危機的處理 但是在法的立場 完完全全是行政作為所以本席率先跟我們宴會裡面的同仁 我就提一個"},{"start":369.52,"end":384.538,"text":"老保條例66條的修法也就是把撥補常態化 撥補法制化所以 院長 這個撥補讓他入法我想聽聽你的意見 聽聽部長的意見"},{"start":391.904,"end":407.555,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢非常肯定委員一直支持我們撥補勞保基金那麼因為是在這個我們目前總統在520就進行了宣誓只要政府在勞保就不會倒"},{"start":409.416,"end":427.252,"text":"總統宣誓底下,我們也承諾在今年的114年度的總預算裡面,我們就編列了1300億的預算你們現在有在做,剛才我也跟院長說明了,你們都有在做,那我的提這個66條,只是把它"},{"start":430.294,"end":431.035,"text":"法制化"},{"start":460.694,"end":461.034,"text":"老保條例69條是什麼"},{"start":487.402,"end":508.425,"text":"勞工有一段時間在10年前一天到晚恐嚇勞工勞保基金快要倒 勞保基金快要倒其實這對1100多萬有頭保的勞工他心有多傷 他心有多恐懼所以69條的部分我也希望把它入法"},{"start":508.985,"end":529.086,"text":"也就是 院長 不管是陳院長 不管是卓院長甚至乙民村部長跟何部長你們都同聲的保證勞保不會倒勞保勞工一定領到他的棺材本這一點我要跟你們肯定但是本席還是要拜託"},{"start":530.367,"end":545.159,"text":"因為我提69條是把他政府最終給付讓1100萬的勞工他知道他也了解政府已經下了法定的政府最終給付所以這一點"},{"start":546.4,"end":566.211,"text":"我特別要跟卓院長要跟何部長讓你們了解我提這個案的當中是你們現在都有在做所以這點我希望也不要再提視線講清楚說明白我想都是為了勞工好讓勞工安心政府也盡心"},{"start":571.973,"end":598.699,"text":"讓這樣一團和氣勞工的問題解決就等於解決社會二分之一的問題所以總院長我剛才已經說明這麼清楚你對已入法你的看法是怎麼樣一句話就是我們對勞保這個基金除了撥補之外還有很多其他的多元的配套可以來運用所以現在只能跟委員說的是"},{"start":599.42,"end":615.565,"text":"政府不負責沒有人可以負責所以剛剛副部長講政府在勞保不會倒而且我們會想辦法對勞工要更好謝謝卓院長因為你也是接地氣勞工要的不多只要政府有作為"},{"start":616.565,"end":640.432,"text":"勞工自然就會放心所以這一塊我要拜託卓院長拜託何部長當我們在我們立法院有關程序勞保條例66條69條的時候我希望行政機關院長也在那邊講也認同我希望這個會很順利的來入華這入華本來就是你們有在做讓勞工覺得他自己本身得到"},{"start":641.51,"end":641.59,"text":"教育部長"},{"start":666.94,"end":687.123,"text":"好 院長那個何部長你也不要走來來來因為我現在要跟你談的齁我現在要跟你談的或許啊這些範圍很大但是這個是一個社會問題左院長我剛才在跟你討論你接地氣"},{"start":688.325,"end":716.664,"text":"但是有些事情你沒有為官沒有當行政院長的時候你沒有辦法做但是當你有機會當了中華民國的行政院長的時候你就有辦法去做這是什麼政策的問題我要跟你談的就是技職教育萎縮以後臺灣產業真的是非常危機"},{"start":717.793,"end":718.113,"text":"好 接下來"},{"start":742.142,"end":752.55,"text":"好 我要考考事啦 我要考考事我們賴清德總統在7月21號的時候他在開幕等你的時候我要請教何部長賴總統怎麼說總統在當時就指示他說台灣未來的產業"},{"start":769.353,"end":770.333,"text":"賴清德總統講這些話你不要你想"},{"start":788.74,"end":789.12,"text":"總統怎麼講?總統怎麼講?"},{"start":814.969,"end":815.33,"text":"主席"},{"start":831.357,"end":832.678,"text":"你同不同意總統講這些話"},{"start":858.237,"end":886.722,"text":"當然同意 我寫我們要把它化為政策來執行好 OK一定 那我們就來繼續談下去 來下一張好 既然都同意了那我們就來探討一個比較客觀的問題 來下一張即時能力 真的學生為什麼會不青睞這叫做什麼 我們教育政策出問題"},{"start":888.443,"end":915.743,"text":"還有教育連貫性不實在所以才會產生這個問題所以我們就來看看這個問題在哪邊所以我提供給我們卓院長去做政策的決策才有辦法指令我們勞動部跟我們教育部要把它連貫起來因為教育跟技職是息息相關的好 下一張"},{"start":918.601,"end":921.528,"text":"說實在啦我再度再重申計止教育是臺灣經濟奇蹟的締造者"},{"start":925.458,"end":948.373,"text":"那這個締造者當然我們要去引導不然的話怎麼樣去締造者所以我在想我們從不管從50年代50年代開始從重工業開始起基在60年代這個人才的培育到70年代高科技的培育"},{"start":949.294,"end":960.551,"text":"這個方向都是對可是有一點從50年代還OK沒有問題60年代在計職教育還好在這個部分據我個人所研究"},{"start":962.593,"end":981.609,"text":"吳京部長在這個部分他是做了跟行政院長報告跟總統報告計職教育做了最好的一段所以提供給部長去做參考那段時間第一個哪有什麼這個移工的問題沒有 為什麼"},{"start":984.735,"end":985.015,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":1001.531,"end":1028.672,"text":"在這個部分我們的技職教育連貫性是不足的這我特別教育部正部長我要讓你了解要你了解所以我的簡單雖然吳京部長已經卸任但是他確實在技職教育部分是做得非常到位非常連結跟產業是連結的接下來"},{"start":1031.158,"end":1042.759,"text":"下一張好我說實在的阿 院長沒有計職教育阿就沒有今天的台積電阿 院長這句話你同意吧"},{"start":1045.149,"end":1064.966,"text":"所以這個台積電現在世界各國是一個護國神山那這個是什麼當初如果沒有政府正確方向去引導哪有這些工程書哪有今天的台積電所以我為什麼會提這個是只要給"},{"start":1066.027,"end":1075.732,"text":"左院長你去做政策的方向決策你如果沒有正確的方向那永遠都是在那邊搞至於"},{"start":1076.929,"end":1095.754,"text":"我們的教改成不成功我們都不要談成不成功我相信我不要問院長你也知道為什麼要恢復50年代做得非常好的60年代做得非常好的技職教育為什麼就是未來到現在為止"},{"start":1097.128,"end":1116.036,"text":"副長你沒有發現到大家都要用移工嗎你現在壓力很大的不管是10萬個20萬個我們現在的移工高達這麼多不管是營造業不管是旅館業連開公車的都希望外勞連我們台電"},{"start":1118.377,"end":1129.805,"text":"在修理電線的都需要外勞這是為什麼就是我們技職教育 失敗嘛所以這20年來完全是失敗的欸 卓院長"},{"start":1131.158,"end":1155.166,"text":"我以重心長我們看到的是這些根本就是教育連貫失敗的計職教育是很失敗的耶 議長這樣啦 我用這個時間給議長因為我剛才跟你報告這些事情議長來 你對於計職教育本席到現在為止提出來哪一點不符合實際議長 來"},{"start":1158.068,"end":1180.563,"text":"謝謝委員 委員能夠關心即時教育就表示委員對很多問題深入的了解現在已經指出問題即時教育在過去幾年真的是呈現一個中空的狀態不管是學生的人數 學家的設備都不足以因應現在產業的需求那我不願意從這個什麼少子化這個角度來看雖然它是一個事實 我願意說的是"},{"start":1181.303,"end":1208.203,"text":"我們整個產業的結構能不能跟計職教育能夠銜接在一起其中兩項一個就是我們計職教育能不能提供很好的誘因讓希望學的以及整個年輕朋友可以進到這個體系裡面來第二我們的計職教育裡面的相關的教學設備設備跟師資趕不趕得上時代我知道很多的學校他裡面做的實驗到外面來是接不上的表示我們在設備的更新上是慢了"},{"start":1208.763,"end":1237.151,"text":"那有沒有足夠的師資﹖如果專業的師資不夠﹖業師能不能請進來﹖也增加他的量﹖用經驗來傳承﹖我覺得這都應該馬上下手出去續資好 謝謝院長那在這裡來接下來下一張好問題在這裡重高中輕技資破身一定要生血所以在這裡有一個數據提供給卓院長"},{"start":1239.133,"end":1265.861,"text":"學歷越高 失業越高知道嗎 這個就是技職教育的重要性這個我特別要提供給卓院長 下一張我現在就是要來 大概來考試一下啦他山之石 台灣要接近啦人家好的 我們當然要接近啊好 我們幾例 院長 我們幾例 瑞士"},{"start":1267.113,"end":1295.956,"text":"他是一個獨立國家他是一個很小的國家可是你就從來沒有聽聽到有勞工抗爭的問題也沒有聽到說喔他們那邊發生什麼重大罷工的問題沒有但是我在這裡他國家有沒有特色當然有特色其他我不談就談勞工這個部分一定這個我問你一個瑞士他最出名的他的"},{"start":1296.804,"end":1298.204,"text":"臺灣要去借鏡下一張"},{"start":1326.872,"end":1354.412,"text":"我們看看德國德國你看看平常都沒有什麼聲音但是他有一個好處他什麼好處呢師徒一對一的教導一邊上課一邊工作實習就有薪水畢業就就業他這裡我還要再請教我們卓院長德國什麼東西做得最好"},{"start":1356.761,"end":1373.099,"text":"對嘛雙B嘛你看到現在是最夠格可是這些人才他有沒有缺乏沒有欸他是跟產業結合來做教育還有做產業的發展所以這個部分我們真的要借鏡好下一張好啦這個我們簡單講過啦反正對岸啦"},{"start":1378.707,"end":1400.269,"text":"雖然他的經濟他的做法政治我們不談但是他對於這些就業的事情他是做得非常到位的所以我比的就是一些西方國家歐洲然後台灣比較接近的對岸"},{"start":1400.956,"end":1401.096,"text":"來 下一張"},{"start":1426.448,"end":1453.288,"text":"所以這很明顯嘛 卓院長我們技職教育的人才是真的不足的啦因為我們政策不重視就不會培養人才所以在這個部分 真的我要拜託卓院長你好好啊 給他升職 叫這個政府委員一個來負責好好研究一個台灣技職教育要不要重新的改變"},{"start":1454.588,"end":1474.131,"text":"以現在的情況來講 都是什麼 紙上談兵 畫餅充雞完全沒有到位以及跟產業結合 教育結合來達到真正既知人才的這些花效 沒有"},{"start":1475.179,"end":1477.66,"text":"我跟你們談話都很溫和我很柔情的人"},{"start":1501.508,"end":1509.157,"text":"但是他給我答話 你看我就馬上放炮他為什麼 不符合我們基層的需求"},{"start":1510.773,"end":1535.917,"text":"因為我們已經20年來 計職教育已經失敗在失敗所以我為什麼提出這個問題讓卓院長 因為卓院長我也期待你有所對台灣計職教育 把它恢復回來這不是哪一個執政的問題 這是歷史遺業也就是對於計職教育 對於我們產業如何去發展 是息息相關的"},{"start":1536.94,"end":1550.942,"text":"好 息息相關所以今天那個經濟部長不需要上來最起碼我要讓卓院長知道這個觀念你才有辦法去指導他們如何去把這個計職教育去把它改變好 下一張"},{"start":1552.551,"end":1570.007,"text":"好啦最主要幾個問題我也提供給我們院長啦齁直言投入啊大小眼齁大小眼這個你們回去檢討所以鄭部長你不要跟我講阿你們有多雄偉的這種雄心抱負你都不要跟我講啦問題現在就很簡單啦"},{"start":1571.656,"end":1591.937,"text":"我們談民進黨執政這8年裡面 技職教育根本就是失敗的我希望我們期待賴總統跟卓院長 領導之下在技職方面有另外一番不一樣的做法跟不一樣的感覺所以在這個部分 資源投入大小園我希望你們趕快改進來下一張"},{"start":1594.807,"end":1604.515,"text":"不符合企業產協合一完全落功這個我也要提供給卓院長好好的去針對這個問題我們大家來商討來 下一張這個重新一樣過去雖然我們對這個協數的"},{"start":1619.861,"end":1620.261,"text":"會讀書的讀大學"},{"start":1648.956,"end":1672.23,"text":"不太想讀書但是他有技能的就在記職這樣何而為一啊為才是用這樣的話臺灣的記職教育跟人才的培育才會去成功的所以以上幾點給這個院長去做參考也就是因應未來的趨勢"},{"start":1675.042,"end":1701.441,"text":"創造良好的就業防信這個應該部長你們也有在做我也看到那另外就是補充啊真的這個教育人才所謂鄭部長抱歉拜託你做法看下一次我就會讓你好好講到現在為止我也知道你剛接可是以前的部長我對他極度不滿意為什麼聽不進去基層需求的聲音只有聽"},{"start":1702.677,"end":1724.273,"text":"政策又失敗當然這個問題就會失敗我希望到立法院來是要聽立法委員以重心長給你的良善建議所以這個部分我希望卓院長那最後一個就是增加記者的教育經費從今年所送來的預算"},{"start":1725.305,"end":1727.346,"text":"最後我要拜託勞動部跟教育部要跨部會的合作"},{"start":1739.301,"end":1739.741,"text":"主席"},{"start":1759.087,"end":1759.267,"text":"主席"},{"start":1782.577,"end":1782.998,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":1800.461,"end":1829.661,"text":"我只拜託你今天聽完我這些建議你認不認同我們技職教育要加強完全認同而且我們也在加強當中謝謝我們的建議非常好所有三個要改變台灣人才方就是要從這裡走手不是今年做明年就有成果或許是要三年五年你就會看到我希望讓老百姓覺得說"},{"start":1830.781,"end":1831.222,"text":"一定努力"},{"start":1870.129,"end":1871.39,"text":"謝謝林國成委員的質詢 謝謝卓院長的備詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:30:19 - 11:01:37","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154867"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:30:49","end_time":"2024-09-24T10:18:49+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154866","gazette":{"lineno":270,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時48分）主席，有請行政院院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：院長好。我想請教一下，我唸一句話「對總預算有意見，有幾種處理的方式包括退回總預算、修正、說明、通過或擇期再議」，這句話誰說的？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員說的。"],["羅委員智強：這句話是2003年柯建銘說的，偉大的柯總召說的。我想請教您，在2008年曾經民進黨提案要退回馬英九政府的總預算，請問你知道提案人是誰嗎？我告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["羅委員智強：是當時的民進黨黨團幹事長賴清德。說真的，跟院長說一下，有點感慨啦！全世界、全臺灣都知道民進黨雙標，但也不要雙標得這麼明顯啦！柯建銘自己都說對總預算有意見可以退回啊！現在民進黨總預算被退回了，我現在看到網路上很多謠言，包括民進黨很多人站出來，把國家說得好像要滅亡一樣。如果退回總預算有這麼禍國殃民，那麼民進黨是不是要先發個聲明來譴責一下賴清德總統呢？因為他以前也想退馬英九總統的總預算啊！還是民進黨的邏輯是：退民進黨的總預算叫傷天害理，退國民黨的總預算就是天公地道？不要這麼雙標可以嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，對於總預算被退回，我只有兩個字，感覺「遺憾」。過去我覺得不管什麼時候……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，謝謝你對柯建銘「遺憾」，也謝謝你對賴清德「遺憾」！"],["卓院長榮泰：過去不管什麼時候總預算被退回，這對於我們行政單位……"],["羅委員智強：我現在想要問你下一個問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：應該也會做同樣的表達。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦，你要努力打臉柯建銘跟賴清德，我也尊重啦！畢竟你是賴清德的愛將嘛！你這麼愛賴清德，愛到去打臉他，我也接受啦！","那我想請教一下，其實在野黨退行政院總預算也不是師出無名啊！今天我跟你講，行政院提的很多預算、過去預算的使用也有很多人不滿意吧？院長，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：可以實質地審查、討論。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！也有人不滿意嘛！可以檢討嘛！對不對？你知道有一個人非常不滿意喔！我很尊敬他，他超級不滿意，他對民進黨過去預算執行的做法很不滿意喔！你知道是誰嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["羅委員智強：就是卓榮泰院長你自己啊！","9月16號，有關民進黨過去在反詐宣導標案上，民視電視臺拿走高達94%的預算，院長當時是不是說過：真的過度集中在某個廠商的話，不是廠商的問題，是政府的問題。你有沒有這樣說過？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯。"],["羅委員智強：未來不允許這樣的情形！你有沒有這樣說過？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，所以你自己都知道民進黨過去的預算執行、使用有問題，在野黨來為您把關、好好監督人民的荷包，也是遂行我們卓院長的意志啊！所以難道只許榮泰不滿，不准在野退回嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我發現問題，我們是解決問題，退回解決不了問題。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！你今天不滿叫做解決問題，我們不滿就叫製造問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：退回解決不了問題……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你！再繼續……"],["卓院長榮泰：實質審查才……"],["羅委員智強：你不要再打臉賴清德跟柯建銘！我真的是……","我代替賴清德跟柯建銘求求你啦！不要再打臉他們了啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：當時的行政機關也會這樣表達啊！"],["羅委員智強：又是時空環境不同！我知道！幫你講啦！","那我跟你講啊，剛剛我們偉大的卓院長這麼樣反省所謂標案集中的問題，你知道嗎？立法院預算中心有說，政府各個機關媒體宣傳多以限制性招標的方式，部分得標廠商過度集中，你有注意到這個問題嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果這個是產生問題的原因，我們就要把這個原因檢討之後，從新的方式來做……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝！謝謝！新的方式！我待會兒跟你講新的方式。","那你知道農業部限制性招標的比例多少嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["羅委員智強：你要新的方式，鑑往知來，過去怎麼做的方式都不知道，新的方式不容易找到啦！我告訴你，99.99%是限制性招標！衛福部多少？99.82%！勞動部多少？99.47%！內政部多少？98.25%！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，請部長來說明。"],["羅委員智強：國發會多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長來說明。"],["羅委員智強：百分之百啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長來說明，讓委員瞭解為什麼要這樣用。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦，部長待會兒……","可以、可以，全部列在你後面，來，全部都站出來！部長，你講啊！我們的衛福部、農業部、勞動部、內政部、法務部、國發會主管，院長請你們全部上來。","好，沒關係，我要跟你講！我就要講新方法啦！鑑往知來，檢討過去才能策勵未來嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：那很簡單啊！預算94.04%，這個叫什麼？花人民錢、洗人民腦，我用白話文說，就是養友綠媒體嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["羅委員智強：就是養友綠媒體！","沒關係，待會兒我講完再問他，給他回答。","所以我跟你講，我有一個很好的建設性方案。現在我跟各位講，請問院長，你知道我們的媒體政策及業務宣導費明年編列多少嗎？","不會這個不知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：全部政府嗎？"],["羅委員智強：對啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：全部政府編列的數字增加了9.5億，一共十四點多億。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！我跟你講，沒關係啦！可是院長對數字還是要稍微盯一下。","14億9,288萬，較今年增加5.9億元，暴增65%！我不知道耶！卓院長，你都對過去的做法覺得很有問題，對不對？太過集中！94%集中在特定媒體、99%是限制性招標，結果我不知道我們的政府哪來的自信，還可以增加65%的預算讓你去洗腦啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：三句話跟委員解釋，14.93億是我們預算數編列的數字，是編列數，你說的……"],["羅委員智強：好啦、好啦！我跟你講，謝謝你啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：9.7億元是去年審查之後的……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，沒關係啦！我告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：法定預算數。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：第三句話……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，謝謝啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：去年的編列數是十一點多億，去年跟今年的編列數只增加3.3億。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，我還是回到令我尊敬的9月16號的卓院長，關鍵跟你編列數跟你現在的成長數，我告訴你，沒有正相關，真正相關是什麼？你要讓政府今天真真正正善用人民納稅的錢，就是把你過去沒做好的，把它扣掉啦！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的……"],["羅委員智強：你94%的預算集中給特定媒體，我就砍你94%的預算啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的指導。"],["羅委員智強：這樣子，剩下6%，你會不會好好運用？"],["卓院長榮泰：你不用尊敬我，你相信我就可以。"],["羅委員智強：我相信你，我也尊敬你……"],["卓院長榮泰：好，那9月14號我說的話……"],["羅委員智強：但是我只限於相信9月16號的卓榮泰啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會落實在預算的執行當中。"],["羅委員智強：今天你到目前為止表現，我有點疑慮啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：9月14號我說的話，我們會落實在未來預算執行當中。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！我跟卓院長講，砍到你行政院預算，你就會立場有點改變，沒有關係啦！但是我跟你講，立法院幫人民把守荷包，是我們天職嘛！對不對？過去你都承認集中預算、標案這樣是不對的！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們發現問題啊！"],["羅委員智強：我就用這個做預算指標來看看行政院未來預算該怎麼編嘛！你太集中的，我就砍嘛！回應民意，每一分每一毛都是人民的納稅錢啊，你都斤斤計較原住民禁伐補償了，對不對？20億，你那麼計較！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是斤斤計較，那是預算編列原則的問題……"],["羅委員智強：那我跟你講，行政院的文宣預算亂用，我砍一砍，拿去給原住民用，我也覺得開心，原住民也開心，陳瑩也開心，伍麗華也開心啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：那是預算編列的原則問題，要合法合憲。"],["羅委員智強：你的原則啊！浪費如果作為原則，我無法接受啦！我再跟你講，我們講師出有名，我跟你講，整個預算書我也看了，大致粗略的看了一下，真的問題很多，你知道吧？院長，在野立委是幫你把關，找出很多的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們各個部會都很用心編列……"],["羅委員智強：來，我跟你講，我要講下一個問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：要實質審查，告訴我們的意見，我們都會尊重。"],["羅委員智強：來，沒關係，我們一個一個講，真的我講三天三夜也講不完，但我只舉幾個比較好玩的例子啊！我們大家一起當作一個有趣的事情來共同探討一下。我想請教一下，剛剛張啓楷委員就對您的官邸電費暴增，他覺得很有意見，他就說你們是在挖比特礦、比特幣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛說這種比喻不對。"],["羅委員智強：當然你不認同嘛！你覺得這樣的說法不好，我也不認同，怎麼會是挖比特幣呢？是在養北極熊啊！什麼挖比特幣，是養北極熊啊！我再問我們的卓院長，我想問一下，你比較怕熱，還是陳建仁比較怕熱？"],["卓院長榮泰：一樣。"],["羅委員智強：一樣啊？不、不、不，我覺得你比較怕熱。你有沒有看過X戰警？"],["卓院長榮泰：X戰警？"],["羅委員智強：X戰警。"],["卓院長榮泰：他不怕熱啊！"],["羅委員智強：X戰警不怕熱？錯！X戰警有一個人很怕熱，誰？你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不知道。"],["羅委員智強：冰人很怕熱啦！冰人在X戰警裡面就是被火噴死的，很怕熱啦！你可以去應徵X戰警的冰人，我們的陳建仁可以應徵X戰警的火人，火人不怕熱，你超級怕熱，你一個電費可以比陳建仁多50%，到底發生什麼事？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛已經答復過張啓楷委員。"],["羅委員智強：我知道，你說要檢討，我們幫你檢討嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我用的時間並不多。"],["羅委員智強：你用的時間並不多，比他還多50%？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我回去檢查這個電力是不是……"],["羅委員智強：6月到8月不是你用的？"],["卓院長榮泰：電器是不是有問題。"],["羅委員智強：不是，6月到8月是不是你用的嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我一個禮拜只有兩個晚上……"],["羅委員智強：今年6月到8月是多少？你花多少度電？快兩萬度？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，所以比過去多了……"],["羅委員智強：15萬？去年6月到8月陳建仁花多少度，1萬5,000度？10萬？"],["卓院長榮泰：今年多了3,900度……"],["羅委員智強：對啊！那我說你當冰人蠻適合的啊！X戰警冰人非你莫屬。","所以我講第二件事了啊！你覺得我講你們預算編列沒有道理嗎？今天民眾質疑沒有道理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會檢討。"],["羅委員智強：我再講第三個啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我會檢討官邸電器的檢查……"],["羅委員智強：來，沒關係，我現在考你一個自然保育常識題啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：希望能夠儘速讓大家清楚，因為實際上用電並沒有那麼多……"],["羅委員智強：沒有，我現在來考考我們卓院長的國際觀，也跟預算有關。請問北海道是黑熊的棲息地，還是棕熊的棲息地？北海道是黑熊的棲息地，還是棕熊的棲息地？難倒你了啦！對不對？我給你一個暗示，臺灣是黑熊棲息地，還是棕熊棲息地？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣黑熊比較有名。"],["羅委員智強：黑熊嘛！對不對？那越北方，你知道哪一種熊比較在北方一點的？北海道是誰的棲息地？"],["卓院長榮泰：也有白熊啊！"],["羅委員智強：北極熊就是你們行政院官邸養的，我知道啦！那是到北極去了。棕熊啦！北海道是棕熊棲息地啦！我問你喔！如果今天政府編一筆預算，說我偉大的政府超級關心國際的生態保育，我要到北海道去考察黑熊保育，這個預算如果院長看了，舌頭會不會掉下來啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：叫他更改，去考察棕熊。"],["羅委員智強：很好啊！理由都亂編啊！就在預算書裡面，當然不是行政院啦！也不能算給你，是監察院，監察院編一筆預算，說到北海道考察黑熊保育，我都快昏了，黑熊保育跟監察院業務什麼關係啊？是第一個問號。第二個，跑到人家日本北海道，人家明明是棕熊棲息地，結果考察黑熊。我跟院長說，我剛剛講過了，今年的總預算是歷史新高吧？是吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為國人非常努力，歲入有比較高，我們有餘裕……"],["羅委員智強：我覺得今天我們要努力幫老百姓把關，這是我們的天職，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：所以我剛剛隨便舉就三個例子，然後接下來我們再講下一個啦！好不好？下一個，今天我們講退回總預算，對不對？原因之一就是因為行政院沒有編足我們立法院三讀通過的原住民禁伐補償條例的預算，對不對？是啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是原因。"],["羅委員智強：原因之一啦！對不對？那我想請問，你不編足這21億，我剛剛隨便講那些東西加起來，也真的是……夯不啷噹，包括政府的電費大增啊！什麼大增啊！說真的，原住民的禁伐補償這麼多年沒調整，我們對原住民總要有點交代嘛！對不對？你知道這個禁伐補償條例提出來，你知道是誰提案的嗎？誰提案的？"],["陳部長駿季：高金素梅委員提案的。"],["羅委員智強：何止高金素梅，還有陳瑩跟伍麗華。院長，我真的跟你講啦！今天這一件事情沒有那麼難解決，只要院長有一顆柔軟的心，對原住民有一點柔軟的心，你對立法院立的國家法律、三讀通過的法律有一顆柔軟的心，你就直接跟在野黨溝通，你就溝通，今天既然三讀通過對原住民、對農民的照顧，行政院絕對努力的把預算編足，來對伍麗華交代、來對陳瑩交代，院長願不願意？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們絕對有柔軟的心，但是在柔軟之前……"],["羅委員智強：做不到？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對憲法跟法定的預算程序……"],["羅委員智強：好柔軟啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：必須要維護。"],["羅委員智強：好柔軟。"],["卓院長榮泰：必須要維護。"],["羅委員智強：好柔軟，在你的柔軟心之下，把原住民踩在腳底下，你叫民進黨的立委怎麼到原住民選區去面對……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，這樣的講法不公平。"],["羅委員智強：沒有關係，我跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們照顧的是全民。"],["羅委員智強：今天總預算退回，起因之一是禁伐補償條例，那我今天也知道院長的態度，沒關係，反正原住民的票或原住民的福利、原住民的福祉、原住民的權益，原住民過去所謂的正義……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是黨派的問題，不是哪一個委員、哪一個黨的問題。"],["羅委員智強：講的非常好！原住民，連民進黨也有原住民立委……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這個是憲法給予行政院編列預算，預算完整性的問題。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！接下來我想請教您，柯建銘就說要去釋憲嘛！是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：黨團也可以有這樣的釋憲。"],["羅委員智強：請問你們行政院要不要也來釋憲一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是希望能夠順利的付委，實質的審查。"],["羅委員智強：所以你也不太認同柯建銘的釋憲主張？你們還是不打算走釋憲的路？"],["卓院長榮泰：黨團可以有這樣的思維跟主張啊！"],["羅委員智強：我要跟院長說，今天政府創下歷史新高的預算，增加了4,000多億，連一個對原住民柔軟的心都沒有，然後現在到處有很多謠言，說什麼總預算被退回，社福支出什麼都不見了。我講一個東西給院長聽，看你認不認同，這是我們現在法律的狀況，即便總預算被退回，法律性的所謂支出，法律義務支出其實也是不受影響，包括社會保險補助、教育經費補助、地方補助大概占六成，如果真的沒有收到補助，反而是行政機關怠惰、侵害人民權益。至於非法律義務的支出，根據預算法第五十四條之規定，國會就算沒有在法定期限內通過預算審查，行政部門可以依照上一年度的預算先執行。","我真的說實在話，民進黨不要一天到晚搞認知作戰，這件事的起因就是民進黨政府對國家法律的不尊重、預算濫編，我隨便講就有那麼多預算濫編的例子，然後加上今天我們必須為原住民伸張，所以這個事情搞了半天，如果真的要讓總預算不被退，我們就去審，看看我們到底該到北海道去考察黑熊還是棕熊？對原住民謙卑就解決了啦！我想請教您下一個問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們對原民會的預算今年增加了12%。"],["羅委員智強：院長，根據各大機構的民調，包括臺灣民意基金會等等的民調，臺灣民眾普遍對司法沒有信心，你知道原因是什麼嗎？我跟你講，一個跟死刑有關，一個是偵查不公開變成偵查大公開啦！","我想再請教您下一個問題，民進黨在黨綱的「自由人權」章裡面直接寫「研議廢止死刑的可行性」，院長，你贊成廢除死刑嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，再說一次黨綱。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，我剛剛問問題的時候……好啦！沒關係，您先喝口水，先緩和一下，喝口水沒關係，然後我再重問我的問題。","謝謝院長，民進黨在黨綱的「自由人權章」直接寫「研議廢止死刑的可行性」，院長你贊成廢除死刑嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：黨綱這麼寫是研議它的可行性，現在的可行、不可行在憲法法庭之後，它就是一個標準，我們要在這個標準底下……"],["羅委員智強：您贊成廢除死刑嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在大法官在憲法法庭所作出來的決定就是我們的共同標準。"],["羅委員智強：院長，我一直很欣賞你，我覺得你是個有擔當的人，連這句話你都答不出來，沒關係，那我就問你下一題。你知道依照國內目前的多項民調，多數人贊成廢除死刑，還是反對廢除死刑？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照民調的結果，贊成死刑的是比較多。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！台灣民意基金會84%反對廢死，中華人權協會也是，這兩個都是今年的民調，有80%反對廢死。那我想請問你，在這麼強大的反廢死民意之下，你贊成大法官用憲法解釋的方式廢除死刑嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，它的解釋是有條件的合憲，下面訴諸了很多條件，我們現在行政機關就是在這個條件底下，如何逐一去執行。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，你的回答就是我下一個要問的問題。你贊成大法官用憲法解釋的方式，表面說死刑合憲，但又用有條件的方式設下十八銅人陣的超高門檻來達到實質廢死嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不能說同意、不同意，因為大法官解釋出來，我們就只能作社會共通的標準。我們在研究行政部門該做的，比方說兩年內該修很多的法，我們要不要去做……"],["羅委員智強：蔡英文政府的法務部長曾經主張死刑的存廢應該由立法院透過修法的方式決定，不應由大法官來解釋，你認同這樣的主張嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說說看。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，法務部在這一次死刑憲法訴訟的言詞辯論，一直主張死刑制度是合憲的。"],["羅委員智強：認不認同蔡清祥？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然我們知道死刑這個議題是社會意見紛陳，我們也是認為……"],["羅委員智強：很好。其實我也問過你，你也是認為要用立法，對不對？這次大法官對死刑的憲法判決，社會有很大的質疑喔！認為大法官雖然宣布死刑合憲，但其實已經是實質廢死了，你覺得大法官已經實質廢死了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：在滿足所列的狀況、條件底下，應該是有執行的空間。"],["羅委員智強：我再講一個更具體、更直觀的指標，有沒有實質廢死就看死刑有沒有執行，對不對？這樣好了，更具體一點，如果到2028年賴清德總統任滿之前，你覺得死刑有執行的可能性嗎？目前有37個死刑定讞的死刑犯，死刑有執行的可能性嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：裡面有很多必須在2年內完成修法……"],["羅委員智強：我直接跟你講，我告訴你，零啦！不會有啦！我很篤斷地說，我們到……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員為什麼有這樣……"],["羅委員智強：到2028年5月19日不管你還在不在院長這個位置上，我們把我今天講的這個話打開來看看，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員……"],["羅委員智強：社會大眾就認為已經實質廢死了啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：相關的不管是刑事訴訟法或者監獄行刑法……"],["羅委員智強：我為什麼這樣講？不是沒有憑證……"],["卓院長榮泰：2年修法完成之後，它是有空間的，現在我們就……逐條討論……"],["羅委員智強：那我就問法務部長，部長，你要不要找一天來司法及法制委員會報告一下接下來37名死刑犯的非常上訴你打算怎麼應對，以及他們的死刑執行，你打算怎麼應對？你這個可不要推大法官，大法官現在是說合憲喔！既然合憲，就執行啊！執不執行？要不要依法執行？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是依法辦理，我一直強調依法辦理……"],["羅委員智強：很好，沒關係啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分因為目前的階段就是要先由最高檢察署來審核……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，所以我跟你講，我第一個跟卓院長講，2028之前，賴清德任滿之前，我不認為有任何死刑會執行，就是實質廢死，但會不會有死刑執行？這個問號也不用卓院長回答，就是法務部長，因為現在是法務部的事了，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們就依法來辦理。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！所以我也會請我們司法及法制委員會的召委請你來做個專案報告……"],["鄭部長銘謙：初步……"],["羅委員智強：好好跟國人解釋一下我們是不是實質廢死。","我跟院長說，我講是不是實質廢死？我跟你講，不是沒有根據的，現在要判死是不是很難？院長，你對相關數據有概念嗎？我直接講，司法院殺人案件量刑系統統計，犯下刑法第兩百七十一條普通殺人罪的罪犯，你知道有百分之多少會被判死嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：4%。"],["羅委員智強：對，我上面已經秀給你看了，可是在過去5年，過去5年誰執政？誰執政？民進黨執政。476件殺人確定案件只有1件死刑定讞，所以是降到千分之二，1,000件殺人案件只有2個兇嫌會判死，所以還不用大法官設門檻，現狀要判就不容易了，死刑要定讞很難，但要執行死刑，我跟你講更難，你知道過去4年來，從2020年5月到現在，請問政府有沒有執行過死刑？上面有，我都很大方的啦！我也不想用這種方式突襲院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：零件。"],["羅委員智強：沒有，零啦！那我想請問，我就不算現在的賴總統，我們最近的三位總統，你知道陳水扁任內執行多少個死刑嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：那有執行過。"],["羅委員智強：32個，馬英九任內多少個？33個，蔡英文任內多少個？2個，難不難？賴清德到現在為止幾個？當然是零啦！可是我直接跟你講，賴清德就是零，一路零到底，是不是實質廢死？其實判準很簡單，我們就看著法務部接下來對於37位死刑定讞的（所謂的死刑犯）作法到底是什麼，到底實質廢死是大法官實質廢死，還是今天卓榮泰內閣（行政院）實質廢死？人民都睜大眼睛在看喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，大法官是有條件合憲，行政機關就是在這個條件底下……"],["羅委員智強：我講的是結果論。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，行政機關就在這個條件底下要依法行政。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！行政機關推大法官，大法官推行政機關，但是我跟你講，為什麼我今天已經沒有興趣去管你到底是大法官推給行政機關，還是行政機關推給大法官？我們今天站在這裡真的是對那些無辜枉死的被害人還有被害者家屬感到深深的沉痛！"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法法庭也說2年內要完成很多法律的修改，這不只是行政院的責任，大院也應該可以在這個時間內跟行政院互相來配合……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啊！所以修法工作我們好好做，我跟法務部繼續參商啊！","接下來我想要請教一下，大法官說犯罪情節屬最嚴重之罪才能判死，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：那麼如果犯下情節最嚴重的罪，就應該要考慮死刑，我想請問標準在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：你說情節最嚴重？"],["羅委員智強：我舉個例子，姦殺、殺警察、殺父母、殺小孩，嚴重危害社會治安，這些算不算犯罪情節嚴重？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是算非常嚴重的。"],["卓院長榮泰：算。"],["羅委員智強：非常嚴重，謝謝。我就看法務部接下來對於現在死刑定讞的一些死刑犯是不是用這個標準去看。我們看到這37名死刑犯裡面，有人姦殺83歲的老婦人，有人十年連殺3人，有人殺母親、殺婆婆、殺丈夫企圖詐領保險金，有人持霰彈槍殺警察，有人綁票、勒贖、撕票、棄屍，有人在KTV縱火燒死5個人，有人在審判時直接嗆法官：沒有判我死刑，依我的個性會繼續殺人。請問這些叫不叫犯罪情形嚴重？如果這些不叫犯罪情形嚴重，我還真不知道什麼叫犯罪情形嚴重。我再請問院長，你知道這37案背負多少人命嗎？你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這些行為如果都經過合於憲法規定的正當法律程序，就應該依法執行。"],["羅委員智強：這個數字我請院長跟部長牢牢記在心裡，這個數字我真的是很誠懇請你們兩個牢牢記在心裡，61條人命。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以依照大法官……"],["羅委員智強：當這個社會走向實質廢死的時候……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，委員……"],["羅委員智強：請大家看看這61條枉死的人命……"],["卓院長榮泰：依照憲法法庭的文字，這些行為如果合於憲法規定……"],["羅委員智強：沒有關係啦！我跟你講，院長，今天你講也沒有用嘛！我剛剛已經說過……"],["鄭部長銘謙：還是要先由最高檢察署來……"],["羅委員智強：部長，先不用緊張，我現在在跟院長對話，我跟你的對話在司法及法制委員會裡多的是。我說過了，2028年賴清德任滿之前，一個死刑都不會執行，這就叫做實質廢死，你可以否定這句話，但我希望你把我否定掉，我希望你用法務部的行動否定我，否定羅智強、打臉羅智強，2028年5月19號的時候，我不管卓院長在哪裡，來跟我講說：羅智強，你錯了，你看你說錯了。我會非常樂意你指正我的錯誤啊！因為當看到這些枉死的人，請問院長心裡淌不淌血？你淌不淌血？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得這種行為國人都無法容忍，法律也無法容忍，但如果他合於憲法規定的正當法律程序，經過這個程序之後，政府必須依法執行。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！院長，我的時間也差不多了，謝謝你啦！我本來要問偵查不公開變偵查大公開，但我只剩一分鐘，所以我問你另外一個簡單一點的題目。請問最近衛福部長邱泰源公開爆料說賴清德打電話罵環境部長彭啓明，這件事你有聽聞嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我看媒體知道……"],["羅委員智強：你看媒體知道，所以邱部長也沒跟你講？可不可以請邱部長跟彭部長上來一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我看媒體知道，事後詢問，我覺得邱部長的發言相當不當，他自己也深表歉意。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！那請他們兩個上來一下。我幫助你們大和解一下，兩個握個手啦！真的，不好看。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟他沒有怎樣啊！"],["羅委員智強：我不是說你，我是說他們兩個。你跟他沒怎樣，你跟他問題才大了，他跳過你……"],["卓院長榮泰：三個人都握手。"],["羅委員智強：三個更好。部長，不要跳過行政院長去告御狀，不好啦！這樣對卓院長不尊重。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我跟彭部長是多年的好友，一起並肩作戰很久，我們是一直都在努力，為節能減碳在努力。"],["羅委員智強：我知道啦！好好的團隊努力為國家做事，謝謝您。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢。","休息（10時18分）","繼續開會（10時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 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院長"},{"start":129.366,"end":137.971,"text":"謝謝你對柯建民遺憾也謝謝你對賴清德遺憾再想要問你下一個問題沒關係阿你要努力打臉柯建民跟賴清德我也尊重啦畢竟你是賴清德"},{"start":149.146,"end":149.527,"text":"議員長施政報告"},{"start":168.78,"end":168.92,"text":"9月16號民進黨"},{"start":192.284,"end":192.464,"text":"沒有錯"},{"start":210.011,"end":230.609,"text":"未來不允許這樣的情形你有沒有這樣說過所以你自己都知道民進黨過去預算執行使用有問題在野黨來為人民把關好好監督荷包也是順行我們卓議院長的意志啊所以難道只許龍泰不滿不准在野退回嗎"},{"start":231.69,"end":253.065,"text":"我發現問題我們是解決問題退回解決不了問題你今天不滿叫做解決問題我們不滿就叫製造問題退回解決不了問題你不要再打臉賴清德跟柯建民我真的是我代替賴清德柯建民求求你啦不要再打臉他們啦又是時空環境不同我知道幫你講了"},{"start":254.687,"end":276.392,"text":"那我跟你講剛剛我們偉大的卓院長這麼樣反省這個所謂的標案集中的問題那我跟您說來你知道嗎立法院預算中心有說政府各個機關媒體宣傳多以限制性招標的方式部分得標廠商過度集中你有注意到這個問題嗎"},{"start":278.772,"end":308.049,"text":"如果這個是產生問題的原因我們就要把這個原因檢討之後從新的方式來做問題的解決那你知道農委會限制性招標的比例多少嗎你要新的方式見往之來過去怎麼做的方式都不知道新的方式不容易找到我告訴你99.99%限制性招標衛福部多少"},{"start":311.522,"end":337.254,"text":"99.82勞動部多少?99.47內政部多少?98.25國發會多少?百分之百啊請部長來說明沒關係啊 全部列在你後面來 全部都站出來 部長你講啊我們的衛福部 農委會 勞動部 內政部 法務部 國發會主管 院長 請你們全部上來好 沒關係 我要跟你講我就要講新方法了"},{"start":338.154,"end":362.976,"text":"建網之來 檢討過去才能設立未來嘛 對不對那很簡單啊你預算94%給民視 這個叫什麼 花人民錢洗人民腦我用白話文說 就是養有慮媒體嘛就是養有慮媒體 沒關係啊 待會我講完再問他回答所以我跟你講 我有一個很好的建設性方案"},{"start":364.615,"end":387.003,"text":"現在我跟各位講請問我們院長你知道我們的媒體政策跟業務宣導費編列多少嗎?今年?明年?不會這個不知道吧?全部政府嗎?對啊全部政府的編列的數字有說增加了9.5億14 14點多億好啦我跟你講沒關係啦學長這數字還是要稍微定一下齁"},{"start":392.259,"end":393.28,"text":"14億9288萬較今年增加5.9億元暴增65%"},{"start":400.302,"end":401.643,"text":"三句話跟委員解釋14.93億是我們預算數編列的數字編列數"},{"start":427.517,"end":429.159,"text":"我告訴你我還是回到我們令我尊敬的9月16號的卓議院長"},{"start":447.92,"end":472.992,"text":"關鍵跟你編列數跟你現在成長數我告訴你沒有政相關政相關是什麼你要讓政府今天真真正正善用人民納稅的錢就是把你過去沒做好把它扣掉啦對不對你94%的預算集中給特定媒體我就砍你94%的預算啊這樣子我現在剩下6%你會不會好好運用"},{"start":473.672,"end":498.179,"text":"你不用尊敬我你相信我就可以我相信你我也尊敬你我只限於相信9月16號的主流報今天到目前為止表現我有點疑慮9月13號我說的話我們落實在未來預算執行當中我跟主委員長講砍到行政院院長你就會立場有點改變沒有關係但是我跟你講立法院幫人民把守荷包是我們天職對不對"},{"start":499.875,"end":521.133,"text":"你過去你都承認集中預算標案這樣是不對的那我就用這個做預算指標來看看行政院未來預算該怎麼編嘛你太集中了我就砍嘛回應民意嘛每一分每一毛都是人民的納稅錢啊你都斤斤計較原住民進法補償了對不對"},{"start":524.276,"end":550.453,"text":"對 21億那麼計較 那我跟你講 行政院的完全預算濫用我砍一砍 拿去給原住民用 我也覺得開心原住民也開心 陳穎也開心 伍麗華也開心啊你的原則啊 讓費羅作為原則 我無法接受啦那我再跟你講 我們講師出有名啊我跟你講 整個預算書我也看了 大致粗略的看了一下"},{"start":551.542,"end":554.305,"text":"實質審查告訴我們的意見我們都會尊重我想請教一下"},{"start":580.017,"end":606.07,"text":"剛剛齁我們這個張祺凱委員齁就對我們的您的官邸齁這個電費齁暴增他覺得齁很有意見他就說齁你們是在挖比特礦嗎?比特幣嗎?我剛剛說這種比喻當然你就不認同嗎?你覺得這樣說法不好我也不認同怎麼會是挖比特幣呢?是在養北極熊啊!"},{"start":607.179,"end":608.941,"text":"X戰警他不怕熱啊X戰警有一個人很怕熱誰你知道嗎"},{"start":631.53,"end":651.739,"text":"兵人很怕熱啦兵人在一級X戰裡面就是被火噴死的啦很怕熱啦你可以去應徵X戰級的兵人啦我們的陳進仁可以應徵X戰級的火人啦火人不怕熱你超級怕熱你跟電費可以比陳進仁多50%到底發生什麼事啊我知道你說檢討嘛我們幫你檢討嘛"},{"start":657.568,"end":665.956,"text":"我用的時間並不多你用的時間並不多 比那台多50%66到8月不是你用的不是 66到8月是不是你用的嘛今年6月到8月是多少今年6月到8月你發多少度電快2萬度"},{"start":675.154,"end":675.835,"text":"所以我講第二件事啊"},{"start":693.274,"end":697.955,"text":"請問北海道是黑熊的棲息地還是棕熊的棲息地北海道是黑熊的棲息地還是棕熊的棲息地難倒你了啦 對不對"},{"start":723.001,"end":747.908,"text":"我給你一個暗示台灣是黑熊棲息地還是棕熊棲息地台灣黑熊比較有名黑熊嘛對不對那越北方你知道哪一種熊比較在北方一點的那北海道的棲息地是誰是誰的棲息地因為我白熊啊再過去北極熊就你們行政院官邸養的我知道啦那個我現在是到北極去了啦棕熊啦北海道是棕熊棲息地啦"},{"start":748.717,"end":751,"text":"叫他更改去考察中熊很好阿 理由都亂編阿"},{"start":770.748,"end":797.908,"text":"就在預算書裡面當然不是你行政院啦不能算給你啦監察院啦監察院給我編一筆預算所有的北海道考察黑熊保育我都快昏了黑熊保育跟監察院業務什麼關係第一個問號第二個跑到人家日本北海道人家明明是中熊七七地就考察黑熊我跟院長說啊我跟他講過了今年的總預算是歷史新高吧是吧"},{"start":800.916,"end":801.577,"text":"今天我們講退回總預算"},{"start":821.96,"end":847.43,"text":"原因之一就是因為行政院沒有編足我們立法院三讀通過的原住民禁法補償條例的預算嘛 對不對這個是原因之一啦 對不對那我想請問齁你不編足這21億我剛剛隨便講那些東西加起來也真的是夯不啷噹包括政府的電費大增啊 什麼大增啊"},{"start":848.863,"end":875.006,"text":"說真的 原住民的進法補償這麼多年沒調整我們對原住民總要有點交代嘛 對不對你知道這個進法補償條例提出來 你知道是誰提案的嗎誰提案的 高金素梅委員提案的何止高金素梅啊 還有陳寅跟伍麗華院長我真的跟你講啦今天這一件事情沒有那麼難解決"},{"start":877.386,"end":899.141,"text":"只要院長一顆柔軟的心對原住民有一點柔軟的心你對立法院立的國家法律三讀通過法律有一顆柔軟的心你就直接跟在野黨溝通你就溝通你今天既然三讀通過對原住民對農民的照顧行政院絕對努力的把預算編組來對武麗華交代來對陳盈交代院長願不願意"},{"start":906.786,"end":927.134,"text":"我們絕對有柔軟的心但是在柔軟之前我們對憲法跟法定的預算承受必須要維護好柔軟在你的柔軟心之下原住民踩在腳底下你叫民進黨立委怎麼到原住民選區去面對你沒有關係我告訴你講今天總預算退回"},{"start":935.12,"end":961.354,"text":"今天起因之一是進法補償條例那我今天也知道院長您的態度沒關係反正原住民的票或原住民的福利原住民的福祉原住民的權益原住民過去的所謂的正義這不是黨派的問題不是哪一個委員哪一個黨的問題所以這個是憲法給予行政院編列預算預算完整性的問題好啦 接下來我想請教您啊柯建民就說要去釋憲嘛是不是"},{"start":964.875,"end":966.056,"text":"今天政府創下歷史新高的預算 增加了4000多億"},{"start":990.911,"end":1011.411,"text":"連一個對原住民柔軟的心都沒有然後到處 現在很多到處謠言啊講到說什麼總預算被退回 社福支出 什麼都不見了我講一個東西給院長聽 你認不認同這是我們現在法律規則的狀況即便總預算被退回"},{"start":1012.921,"end":1031.646,"text":"法律性的所謂的支出法律義務支出其實也是不受影響包括社會保險包括社會保險補助教育經費補助地方補助大概佔六成如果真的沒有收到補助反而是行政機關怠惰"},{"start":1032.659,"end":1059.036,"text":"然後侵害人民權益至於非法律義務的支出根據預算法54條之規定國會就算沒有在法定期限內通過預算審查行政部門可以依照上一年度預算先執行我真的說實在話啦民進黨不要一天到晚搞認知作戰這件事起因就是對民進黨政府對國家法律的不尊重預算濫編我隨便講那麼多的例子預算濫編然後呢"},{"start":1060.185,"end":1081.727,"text":"加上今天對原住民我們必須為原住民伸張啊所以這個事情搞了半天如果真的要讓總預算不要退 對不對我們來去審啦 看看我們到底是北海道該考察黑熊還是棕熊就是對原住民謙卑就解決了啦我想請教您下一個問題"},{"start":1083.423,"end":1089.665,"text":"院長除外根據各大機構民調包括臺灣民意基金會等等的民調臺灣民眾土片對司法沒有信心你知道原因是什麼嗎我跟你講一個是跟死刑有關一個是偵查不公開變偵查大公開我想再請教你下一個問題"},{"start":1107.912,"end":1127.72,"text":"民進黨在黨綱的自由人權章裡面直接寫嚴議廢止死刑的可行性 院長你贊成廢除死刑嗎對不起 再說一次黨綱就跟你講 我剛剛問問題的時候好啦好啦 沒關係來 您先喝口水來 先喝口水先緩和一下喝口水沒關係然後我再問我的問題 對好 謝謝院長"},{"start":1136.909,"end":1166.6,"text":"民進黨在黨綱的自由人權章直接寫研議廢止死刑的可行性 院長你贊成廢除死刑嗎黨綱這麼寫是研議它的可行性 那現在的可行不可行在憲法法庭之後它就是一個標準 那我們在這個標準底下你贊成廢除死刑嗎現在大法官憲法法庭所做出來的決定就是我們的東方投票我一直很欣賞你 我覺得你是有擔當的人"},{"start":1168.065,"end":1196.411,"text":"連這句話有打不出來沒有那我就問你下一題你知道依照國內目前的多項民調多數人贊成廢除死刑還是反對廢除死刑依照民調的結果這個贊成死刑的是比較多對啊就是桃園民意基金會84%反對廢死嘛中華人權協會是今年這樣都今年的民調80%反對廢死那我想請問你齁在這麼強大的反廢死的民意之下你贊成大法官用憲法解釋的方式廢除死刑嗎"},{"start":1197.861,"end":1220.189,"text":"第一個他的解釋是有條件的合憲那下面訴出來很多的條件我們現在行政機關就在這個條件底下我們如何逐一的去執行你的回答是我下一個要問的問題啦那你贊成大法官用憲法解釋的方式表面說實行合憲但又有條件的方式設下18同仁證的超高門檻來達到實質廢死嗎"},{"start":1223.677,"end":1248.547,"text":"我不能說同意不同意 因為大法官出來我們就只能做社會共通的標準我們在研究行政部門該做的 比方說兩年內該修很多的法蔡英文政府的法務部長曾經主張死刑的存費應該由立法院透過修法的方式決定不應由大法官來解釋 你認同這樣的主張嗎各位委員報告那法務部在這次的那個死刑的憲法訴訟的延遲編入"},{"start":1250.756,"end":1256.819,"text":"認為大法官雖然宣布死刑核限但其實已經是實質廢死了你覺得大法官已經實質廢死了嗎?"},{"start":1281.636,"end":1296.423,"text":"在滿足他所列的那種狀況條件底下是應該有執行的空間是有空間的我講一個更具體更直觀的指標有沒有實質廢死就看死刑有沒有執行對不對如果到2028年我們賴清德總統任滿之前你覺得死刑有執行的可能性嗎"},{"start":1309.568,"end":1336.817,"text":"因為他裡面有很多 為什麼有37個 死刑定驗的死刑犯喔死刑有執行的可能性嗎他裡面有很多 必須在兩年內完成修法我直接跟你講啦 我告訴你啦零啦 不會有啦我很獨斷的說啦我們到2028年5月19號 吳國遠院長不管你還在不在這個位置上我們把我今天講這話打開來看看 好不好"},{"start":1337.849,"end":1366.203,"text":"社會大眾就認為已經實質廢死了啦來 我為什麼這樣講不是因為有憑證那我就問法務部長啊 你要不要找一天來司法法治委員會報告一下接下來37名死刑犯的非常上訴你打算怎麼應對以及他死刑執行你打算怎麼應對欸你這可不要推大法官了 大法官現在是說核限喔"},{"start":1367.432,"end":1378.641,"text":"阿既然合憲 就執行阿 執不執行 要不要依法執行很好阿 沒關係啦沒關係 所以我跟你講 我第一個跟我們的卓院長講2028之前 大憲熱滿之前 我不認為有任何死刑會執行 就是實質廢死"},{"start":1394.841,"end":1415.55,"text":"但會不會有死刑執行這個問號也不用卓院長回答就是法務部長因為現在是法務部的事了吧不是吧 是不是對啊 所以請我也會跟我們的司法法務委員會招委來請你來做個專案報告好好跟國人解釋一下是不是實質廢死"},{"start":1417.13,"end":1444.645,"text":"那我跟院長說我講說是不是實質廢死我跟你講不是沒有本據的啦現在要判死是不是很難啦院長你對相關數據有概念嗎我直接講司法院殺人案件量刑系統統計犯下刑法271條普通殺人罪的罪犯你知道有百分之多少會被判死嗎百分之四對我上面已經秀給你看"},{"start":1445.714,"end":1470.355,"text":"可是在過去5年,過去5年誰執政?誰執政?民進黨執政476件殺人權利案件只有一件死刑定讞所以是降到千分之二一千件殺人案件只有兩個兇嫌會判死所以還不用大法官設門檻現狀要判就不容易了"},{"start":1471.573,"end":1497.34,"text":"施行要訂閱很難但要執行施行我跟你講更難你知道過去4年來從2020年5月到現在請問政府有沒有執行過施行上面有啦 我都很大方的啦對 我也不想用這種方式突襲院長沒有啦 零啦那我想請問齁我就不算現在賴總統啦"},{"start":1499.554,"end":1526.357,"text":"我們最近的3位總統你知道陳水扁任內執行多少個死刑嗎32個馬英九任內多少個33個蔡英文任內多少個2個難不難賴清德到現在為止幾個當然是0可是我直接跟你講賴清德就是0一路0到底是不是實質廢死其實判準很簡單"},{"start":1527.83,"end":1553.522,"text":"我們就看著法務部接下來對37位死刑定讞的所謂的死刑犯你今天到底的做法是什麼到底實質廢死是大法官實質廢死還是今天卓榮泰內閣行政院實質廢死人民都睜大眼睛在看喔報告委員大法官是有條件合憲行政機關就是在這個條件底下我講的是結果論"},{"start":1554.947,"end":1569.717,"text":"對 行政機關就在這個條件底下要依法行政好啦 行政機關推大法官 大法官推行政機關但是我跟你講為什麼今天已經沒有興趣去管你到底是大法官推給行政機關還是行政機關推給大法官"},{"start":1570.862,"end":1591.428,"text":"我們今天站在這裡是真的是對那些無辜往死的被害人還有被害者家屬感到深深的沉痛憲法法庭也說兩年內要完成很多法律的修改這不只是行政院的責任大院也應該可以在這個時間內跟行政院互相來配合好 那接下來我要想請教一下"},{"start":1597.742,"end":1620.936,"text":"我們的大法官說犯罪情節屬最嚴重之罪才能判死嘛對不對是那麼如果犯下情節最嚴重的罪就應該要考慮死刑嘛那我想請問標準在哪裡你說情節最嚴重我舉個例子啊姦殺殺警察殺父母殺小孩嚴重危害社會治安這些算不算犯罪情節嚴重這個是算非常嚴重的非常嚴重謝謝"},{"start":1624.465,"end":1636.113,"text":"我就看我們法務部接下來對於現在死刑定讞的一些死刑犯你是不是用這個標準去看我們看到這37名的死刑犯裡面有人監察83歲的老婦人"},{"start":1638.891,"end":1639.812,"text":"請問這些叫不叫犯罪情形嚴重"},{"start":1665.776,"end":1665.836,"text":"61條人命"},{"start":1696.944,"end":1710.35,"text":"當這個社會走向實質廢死的時候請大家請真的請大家看看這61條往死的人沒有關係嘛 我跟你講院長今天你講也沒有用嘛我剛已經說過我現在跟院長對話好不好 我跟你對話我就說過了"},{"start":1724.212,"end":1725.172,"text":"我會非常樂意你指證我的錯誤"},{"start":1753.356,"end":1781.105,"text":"因為當看到這些往死的人請問院長你心裡躺不躺血你躺不躺血我覺得這種行為國人都無法容忍法律也無法容忍但如果它合於憲法規定的正當法律程序經過這個程序之後政府必須依法執行謝謝你啦我本來要問偵查不公開變偵查大公開但我只剩1分鐘所以我問你一個簡單一點的題目"},{"start":1783.96,"end":1808.594,"text":"請問最近衛福部長邱太元公開爆料說賴清德打電話罵環境部長彭啟明這件事你有聽聞嗎我看媒體知道所以我們的邱部長也沒跟你講啊我看媒體知道事後的詢問我覺得邱部長的發言相當的不當他自己也聲表歉意好啦那請他們兩個上來一下啦對不對我幫助你們大和解一下啦"},{"start":1810.613,"end":1822.254,"text":"兩個握個手啦真的不好看我跟他沒有怎樣啊我說我不說你我說兩個他們兩個你跟他沒怎樣你跟他問題才大了他跳過你三個更好"},{"start":1824.161,"end":1826.162,"text":"謝謝羅智強委員 紫薰 謝謝卓院長的備詢報言會現在我們休息10分鐘 休息之後"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:48:00 - 10:18:49","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154866"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:15:47","end_time":"2024-09-24T09:47:55+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154865","gazette":{"lineno":224,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時32分）好，謝謝院長。我們等一下卓院長喝水，好，那有請行政院院長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：院長早安，針對3個跟兒少有關的議題快速跟您討論，第一個，我想要談的是3C，我想要先說3C是中性的，但是一旦過度的使用、不當的使用，對於非常多兒少造成的困擾，我相信在這幾年所有的行政機關還有包含院長你一定都相當的清楚。我們來看一下，但是可以怎麼樣對抗3C呢？我這裡想要試著提出一個解方，一個是用閱讀來對抗3C，關於這個我是有一些學理論證想要跟院長分享。來，請看下一頁，在非常多的社群網站隨便找就可以找到有非常多的老師跟家長在分享，孩子們過度使用3C會注意力不集中，而且這個注意力不集中會長時間的延續到在他入學以後開始學習學術相關科目，表現都非常的不好，甚至情緒也會不穩定。請看下一頁，我們來看一下相關的科學研究，其實從疫情前就開始有人在研究，到疫情後這幾年相關的研究絕對超過1,000篇，從左手邊這個大腦白質比較完整跟右手邊這個比較不完整的圖我們可以看到，過度使用3C、長時間使用3C、不當使用3C，孩子們的大腦發育會出現很大的問題，他在識字、認字、情緒控管會出現困難，這個是在學齡前，我們已經可以看得到證據。請看下一頁，如果時間用得更長，它會外顯到個人的行為表現，在學校裡面就會出現問題，他跟同學、跟老師之間也會有非常多的衝突。請看下一頁，另外，如果過度使用3C，他在語言、讀寫還有認知能力的測驗表現分數也會較低，這都是這幾年非常完整的研究，這是國外的研究。","我們來看下一頁，到了臺灣，我們從衛福部給我們的數字裡面可以看到3歲、4歲、5歲的現況，院長，你有發現嗎？年紀越小的小孩用3C的時間越來越長，這對認知、語言、社會、情緒、身體功能還有整體的認知發展都會有明顯的負面影響。請看下一頁，臺灣有人做了一個統計，這是師大受衛福部還是教育部的委託做了一個相關的研究，我們發現，從3個月開始，6個月、12個月，然後1歲半、2歲、3歲、4歲、5歲的孩子們在「親子共讀」綠色那一塊的比例都非常非常的低，但是看電視跟用3C的比例卻非常非常的高，我想這個已經充分的表現，全世界的孩子跟臺灣的孩子一樣都有3C過度使用的問題。但是我們要如何來面對這個問題呢？其實有很多臺灣的專家學者還有老師也提出短影音對孩子真的造成很大的衝擊，包含破壞了注意力、包含了破壞情緒的穩定、破壞了學術學習的能力。","那怎麼解呢？其實在所有的研究當中，包含國外跟臺灣的研究都告訴我們，要維持孩子的注意力、維持孩子的情緒穩定，除了良好的家庭教育跟陪伴品質，有一件事情成本很低，而且也很簡單，就是用閱讀，所以每一年都會有相關的單位包含師大，他們也都會召開記者會跟大家分享他們的研究報告，也告訴大家在閱讀這件事情上，其實政府可以做得更多。","我們來看看可以做哪些事情，閱讀到底可以造成什麼好處？這是一個最新的研究。院長你可以看一下，最左手邊那個大腦的活化比起最右邊那個是比較不活化的，不管在任何年紀，大腦它非常有趣，它並沒有一個專門管閱讀的區位，它必須要啟動非常多的區位共同工作，大腦才可以活化，去發揮閱讀可以產生的影響力，或者是產生任何的好處在自己身上。所以我來問一下，我們盤點過衛福部、文化部、教育部在孩子不同的年齡階段，其實都已經有給予一些些，我必須要說是一些些閱讀資源，但它是破碎的，而且它不是用國家統整的高度來面對這個議題。如果3C這件事情它真的很有可能是未來，或者是現在孩子們在一路成長的國安危機，我們政府單位還可以做哪些事情？","我這邊跟院長分享一下，衛福部在0到2歲有所謂的閱讀禮袋，從2歲開始到18歲有教育部的角色，有文化部的角色，所以我才會……感謝三位部長都已經站出來了。我想要問院長，您剛剛聽完之後，您認為3C焦慮造成國安危機這件事情是不是很嚴重？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員從這個角度對兒少的身心健康提出了這個提醒，我認為除了學校，家庭也是很重要的。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：爸爸、媽媽跟小孩之間的互動，如果是用一個3C來減少互動，是為了比較安寧的話，也許這樣只對螢幕不對父母的現象會產生，所以學校、家庭都要進行很多認知上的改變才可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯、沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望……"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分三個部會……"],["卓院長榮泰：這幾個部會都能夠提出比方說，我們衛福部就有提出手機還我，小孩不哭等等之類一些情境的手冊出來，我希望各個方面也要從健康方面、文化方面、家庭生活方面能夠來持續做這些事情，做更多的投入。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為我的時間有限，我想要簡單提出用閱讀對抗3C，在各個部會盤點之下，除了現有我剛剛說的那些少少的預算、少少的事情之外，有沒有機會用國家的高度來面對3C這件事情是引入閱讀？在這個AI時代，因為我們是AI創新內閣，我也要講，下個月即將出版的一本中文書，但是我已經看過英文版，它裡面就提到AI世代，AI所能夠提供給我們的是知識，但不是智慧，唯有人類有智慧，而智慧才有辦法去辨別跟思考，還有批判所有來到我們面前的知識是不是正確的，所以我也想要拜託院長協同各個部會，在後續的閱讀政策上、閱讀資源上，可不可以以國家的高度統整三個部會，提出用閱讀對抗3C，還有協助爸爸、媽媽，像您剛剛說的，協助爸爸、媽媽跟協助老師共同去面對3C的困境。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，比方說，教育部也有提出一個新世代雙閱讀，就是鼓勵國中、國小能夠閱讀……"],["陳委員培瑜：有數位閱讀跟紙本閱讀。"],["卓院長榮泰：增加閱讀素養，我覺得這個是很長一段時間，或許我們在教育體系當中有所忽略，現在教育部已經提出了，是不是部長能夠簡單的、簡要地跟委員說明？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心。事實上，我們從2000年開始，教育部全面推動閱讀運動以來，我今年剛上任……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下，對不起，部長，因為我時間有限，我們可不可以後續再跟你們討論？因為我對閱讀非常熟悉……"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我已經研究過……"],["卓院長榮泰：就是一個重點啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：我簡單地跟委員報告，我們現在也鼓勵中小學所有的圖書館搬到一樓，它是連星期六、日都開放，然後我們也大量的補助許多圖書，然後鼓勵親師伴讀的老師。"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道、我知道，去年國教法修法提出要有購書預算、要有國家來支持入法，就是我所提出的，所以我非常的清楚，所以我是不是在時間有限的情況下，可以持續拜託行政院跟三個部會，我們辦公室會持續跟大家溝通，在閱讀導入學校或者是協助家庭教育的部分，我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，有一個重點，雙閱讀就是紙本跟數位。"],["陳委員培瑜：數位，沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：都必須要重視，因為這是一個工具。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：紙本那是一個互動之間的，那也是增加學生閱讀素養的工作，數位也不能夠放棄，我們會雙向來進行。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝三位部長，也謝謝院長。","我們來看下一題，另外一個也是困境，是兒少的困境，就在普特融合的部分，普特融合當然是一個非常重要的回應這個時代的理念，問題是現場有非常多的困境，我想我要讓院長知道。在修法之後，其實相關的子法都已經盤點完，而且也陸續修法完成，可是我們看到還是有些困境，第一個是老師相關專業知能研習，這部分其實還沒有跟上腳步；再來就是關於學生合理調整指引的部分其實也還不夠；還有之前在教育及文化委員會質詢的時候，我也拜託過部長，分散式資源班共用教室，甚至共同分攤導師費的部分，其實對於現場的老師教學都非常不利，之前有跟部長討論過，部長有說會帶回去研議，可是我們目前還沒有看到進度；還有在師生比的部分其實有很大的困境，尤其在特教的部分，當時修法的時候雖然說是一比八，可是後來教育部做出了一比十、一比八、一比十五，其實都跟現場的想像有非常多的落差；再來是這個暑假才剛發生的事情，有縣市政府要求特教老師要額外，我說的是額外，在IEP以外還要額外做課程計畫，這對於在教學現場行政量已經非常重的特教老師來說，其實都帶來很大的困境，我們辦公室甚至拜託國教署跟地方政府一起來開協調會，解決地方政府到底認知上出了什麼問題。我想要講這麼多問題，我當然會說教育部跟國教署真的在普特融合方面已經很努力了，可是在現場的落實跟政策，真的還是要拜託院長給教育部更多的資源，讓教育部有機會跟國教署共同協助地方政府，無論在補足人力也好，在空間的調整也好，在相關費用也好，真的都可以讓普生、特生、普師、特師共同有感，因為我們是一個普特融合的現場。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，感謝委員長期關注普特融合的教育，那也是一個國際趨勢，我們確實也在明年的預算裡面增列了一些經費，總共編列了二十五億四千多萬，誠如陳委員剛才所提的，主要就是希望能夠降低資源班的師生比，也能夠提供許多普特融合教師的增能，包括強化普特融合、無障礙環境的改善，我們總是希望特教一方面能夠支持更多有特殊需求的學生能夠在普通班的教室裡學習，也希望能夠透過更多的支持，讓普通班的老師能夠增能，協助特教學生在普通班有更好的一些發展。我想這一個方向是我們一直在努力的。"],["陳委員培瑜：後續這個部分，我們也會跟教育部、國教署持續保持聯絡，協助現場更多老師跟家長，好嗎？也謝謝院長的支持，謝謝部長。","接下來一題要談的是臺灣即將升格的體育暨運動發展部，前兩天周思齊引退，我雖然沒有到現場，但是我有看愛爾達的轉播，其中有講到一段，我非常的有感，他說你們大家還記得臺北棒球場嗎？那就是大巨蛋的前身，很多人可能不知道它的原址在哪裡，就是現在的小巨蛋，而那個地方承載了很多的記憶，後來臺北市長已經承諾會協助立一個碑，可是我認為這件事情應該不是只有地方政府的事情，其實我相信在院長心中，一定也對這樣的事情很有感觸，所以，是不是可以拜託體育署，在體育記憶文化傳承的部分，我們不要只是立一個碑，因為周思齊身為一個選手，他談的是這個事情，但是站在國家的高度，如何協助記憶臺灣的運動文化，不要讓它流失，甚至有非常多的文物，現在體育署只有做數位典藏，但是一般人很無感，甚至不知道。對於運動文化記憶的傳承，我想要拜託行政院持續努力。","因為時間有限，我先講，他在那一天引退時講了一段話，他說如果你們在牌桌上看到小兄弟，拜託不要拍照，但是請去告訴他們：「我們回去練球，好嗎？」他在講的是大家共同的職棒賭博的記憶，我相信院長一定也印象深刻，在1990年代，當年球場只剩下101個人，花了25年的時間，臺灣的球場總算回到了4萬人，院長，我要跟你說，到目前為止，體育署本來應該要開的職棒防賭會議，到現在一場都還沒有開，已經快要年底了。我要講的是，在相關的條例裡面，我們也提出，我們希望有防賭會議的落實，我們希望有防賭信託的支持，我們希望有法治教育的深化，如果有這些支持，我們的選手就不用成為被賭博的工具，他們甚至可以不用被黑道威脅。在那個時代的記憶走到現在，周思齊還有今年引退的3位選手，包含官大元、高國慶都談了相關的問題，這個部分要拜託院長在新的部會裡面要積極落實。","最後一個就是全新跟全民的運動發展部，我昨天在副院長的臉書也有看到您提出了全新的思維，甚至相關的會議，我們也看到行政院非常有誠意邀請了體壇大老、運動員球員工會、帕運、新興運動還有所有的產業代表，所以我相信絕對是一個新的思維。但是在過去的框架裡面如何把新的思維放進去，我相信絕對是後續行政的挑戰。","最後，我們來看一張很可愛的照片，院長，你記得這張照片嗎？院長，我想要問你看得出來裡面哪些是俱樂部的小孩，哪些是學校體育班的小孩嗎？應該看不出來，對不對？對，我也是看不出來，但是對我們來說，他們就是臺灣孩子，他們就是臺灣的兒少。我想要談目前的規劃裡面，我看不到兒少運動司，我們之前一直在跟體育署開會，可不可以提出一個以兒少為主體政策去思考的兒少運動司，不要侷限在社區俱樂部，也不要只侷限在學校的體育班，不要只侷限在校隊，如何把這個事情擴大到兒少運動司，我覺得是有機會，而且也想要拜託行政院去思考這個議題。甚至我想要再次提出兒少教練證，還是有非常多教練對於兒少的基本認識非常不足，他可能只有運動相關專業的認知，但是他並沒有兒少的認知，所以我也想要在以兒少為主體的情況下，拜託行政院提出相關規劃。","以上四個議題，關於運動的部分，可不可以請院長快速回應一下？謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的關心跟深入，我會請我們體育暨運動發展部院內的籌備小組龔明鑫秘書長，以及諮詢小組的召集人鄭麗君副院長，再請委員能夠把這些資料，我們把它納到相關的討論會議當中，我覺得都非常有它的意義，臺灣不僅要有棒球的紀念，圓山足球場我也很懷念。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯。最後還有20秒，我只講一個標題就好了，我們之後會再跟教育部討論。會考制度已經實施十年了，有非常多的事情其實需要重新盤點和討論，這個部分我想部長一定也會表達關心，是不是後續我們還有機會再開持續深入的會議來討論關於會考制度造成的一些問題？部長點頭。"],["鄭部長英耀：當然。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們就先謝謝部長，後續我們會持續討論，也謝謝院長。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第10號羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137501_00010"}},"委員名稱":"陳培瑜","duration":947,"start_time":"2024-09-24T09:32:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdc7d5d95287b89dc2f94efea3ffcfbb9fd6e84e674c262b062435bfed6d92a7e067b1efe2647ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.45971875,"end":11.759093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.492843750000002,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.26034375,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.74096875,"end":21.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.60034375,"end":28.617218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.617218750000003,"end":29.629718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.629718750000002,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.01409375,"end":60.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.02971875,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.11096875000001,"end":106.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.79471875,"end":117.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.81409375000001,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.38596875000002,"end":148.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.69534375,"end":176.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.83034375,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.57471875000002,"end":205.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.29409375,"end":209.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.38221875000002,"end":226.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.23596875,"end":295.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.05221875,"end":297.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.16159375,"end":302.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.85284375000003,"end":308.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.97471875,"end":306.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.25284375,"end":310.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.32034375,"end":308.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":311.00346875,"end":318.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.66909375,"end":318.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.40721875,"end":321.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.14096875,"end":326.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.79471875,"end":326.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.56221875,"end":343.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.50971875000005,"end":339.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.04096875000005,"end":341.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.48784375,"end":395.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.74971875,"end":396.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.42471875,"end":414.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.04846875000004,"end":402.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.44721875000005,"end":414.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.49784375,"end":423.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.51471875000004,"end":414.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.76221875000005,"end":426.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.78284375000004,"end":434.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.21221875000003,"end":441.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.75096875,"end":451.85909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.15034375000005,"end":468.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.37534375,"end":470.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":469.64534375000005,"end":472.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.48034375000003,"end":472.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.86846875000003,"end":472.91909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":472.91909375000006,"end":483.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.21846875000006,"end":474.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.84596875000005,"end":482.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.43221875,"end":499.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.59409375,"end":596.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":531.52596875,"end":531.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.35096875,"end":660.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.1428437500001,"end":731.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.2922187500001,"end":762.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":762.34221875,"end":766.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.25284375,"end":794.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":794.37096875,"end":822.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":822.2822187500001,"end":823.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":824.7122187500001,"end":830.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":830.80409375,"end":832.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":832.4240937500001,"end":883.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":884.1628437500001,"end":887.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPE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包含師大 他們也都會召開記者會跟大家分享他們的研究報告 也告訴大家在閱讀這件事情上其實政府可以做的更多 我們來看看可以做哪些事情閱讀到底可以造成什麼好處 這是一個最新的研究"},{"start":227.47,"end":228.451,"text":"所以我來問一下其實我們盤點過"},{"start":252.891,"end":269.448,"text":"衛福部、文化部、教育部在孩子不同的年齡階段其實都已經有給予一些些我必須要說是一些些閱讀資源但是它是破碎的而且它不是用國家統整的高度來面對這個議題那如果3C這件事情它真的很有可能是未來"},{"start":270.089,"end":294.9,"text":"或者是現在孩子們在一路成長的國安危機我們政府單位還可以做哪些事情我這邊跟院長分享一下衛福部在0到2歲有所謂的閱讀禮帶從2歲開始到18歲有教育部的角色有文化部的角色所以我才會感謝三位部長感謝三位部長都已經站出來了我想要問院長院長你剛剛聽完之後您認為3C焦慮造成國安危機這件事情是不是很嚴重"},{"start":296.489,"end":320.887,"text":"謝謝委員從這個角度對我們兒少的身心健康提出了這個提醒我認為除了學校家庭也是很重要的爸爸媽媽跟小孩之間的互動如果是用一個3C來減少互動是為了比較安寧的話那也許這樣的只對螢幕不對父母的現象會產生所以學校家庭都要進行很多的一個"},{"start":322.208,"end":323.029,"text":"﹚陳培瑜﹚陳培瑜﹚陳培瑜﹚陳培瑜﹚"},{"start":343.547,"end":357.78,"text":"我這邊有想要 因為我的時間有限我想要簡單提出用閱讀對抗3C在各個部會盤點之下除了現有我剛說的那些少少的預算少少的事情之外有沒有機會用國家的高度來面對3C這件事情是引入閱讀"},{"start":358.841,"end":387.873,"text":"在這個AI時代因為我們是AI創新內閣我也要講下個月即將出版的一本中文書但是我已經看過英文版它裡面就在提到AI時代AI所能夠提供給我們的是知識但不是智慧唯有人類有智慧而智慧才有辦法去辨別跟思考還有批判所有來到我們面前的知識是不是正確的所以我也想要拜託院長協同各個部會在後續的閱讀政策上閱讀資源上可不可以以國家的高度統整三個部會"},{"start":388.413,"end":412.411,"text":"提出用閱讀對抗3C還有協助爸爸媽媽您剛剛說的協助爸爸媽媽跟協助老師共同去面對3C的困境是 比方說教育部也有提出一個新世代雙閱讀就鼓勵有數位閱讀跟紙本閱讀增加閱讀素養我覺得這個是很長一段時間我們在教育體系當中有所忽略或許那現在教育部已經提出了是不是能夠簡單的簡要的跟"},{"start":415.353,"end":440.934,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心事實上我們從2000年開始這個全面教育部在推動這個閱讀運動以來那我今年剛上任但是等一下對不起部長因為我時間有限我們可不可以後續再跟你們討論我因為對閱讀非常熟悉所以我已經研究過了我簡單的跟委員報告就是說我們現在也鼓勵中小學所有的圖書館搬到一樓然後他是"},{"start":441.815,"end":444.716,"text":"在閱讀導入學校或者是協助家庭教育的部分我們一起努力"},{"start":469.466,"end":474.411,"text":"我們來看下一題喔另外一個也是困境 也是兒少的困境就在普特融合的部分喔普特融合當然是一個非常重要的回應"},{"start":495.131,"end":499.436,"text":"這個時代的理念但是問題現場非常多的困境我想我要讓院長知道來第一個"},{"start":501.283,"end":529.61,"text":"在修法之後其實有相關的執法都已經盤點完而且也陸續修法完成可是我們看到還是有一些困境來下一頁第一個是老師的相關專業知能研習這個部分其實還沒有跟上腳步再來就是關於學生合理調整執營的部分其實也還不夠我們來看下一頁還有之前在教育文化委員會質詢的時候我也拜託過部長在分散式資源班他們共用教室甚至共同分攤導師費的部分其實對於現場的老師教學都非常的不利之前有跟部長討論過"},{"start":530.61,"end":552.216,"text":"部長說會帶回去研議可是我目前還沒有看到進度還有在施生筆的部分其實也有很大的困境尤其在特教的部分當時雖然修法的時候說是1比8可是後來教育部做出了1比10 1比8 1比15其實都跟我們現場的想像有非常多的落差再來下一個這個暑假才剛剛發生的事情有縣市政府要求特教老師要額外"},{"start":554.116,"end":579.547,"text":"在IEP以外還要額外做課程計劃這對於在教學現場行政量已經非常重的特教老師其實都帶很大的困境我們辦公室甚至拜託國教署跟地方政府一起來開協調會來解決地方政府到底認知上出了什麼問題我想要講這麼多問題我當然會說教育部跟國教署真的在普特融合已經很努力了可是在很多現場的落實跟政策真的還是要拜託院長"},{"start":580.727,"end":581.008,"text":"培瑜委員"},{"start":599.515,"end":614.936,"text":"謝謝委員我想感謝委員長期對這個普特融合的這個教育那也是一個國際歧視那確實我們在明年的預算裡面也增列了一些經費我們總共編列了25億多25億4千多萬主要就是希望"},{"start":615.436,"end":630.266,"text":"能夠陳委員剛才所提的我們也希望在這個支援班裡面能夠降低這個施政比也能夠提供許多的這些普特融合教師的增能包括強化這個普特融合的等等包括"},{"start":631.147,"end":631.327,"text":"﹚陳培瑜﹚"},{"start":661.189,"end":661.71,"text":"前兩天周思齊引退"},{"start":680.572,"end":680.712,"text":"培瑜"},{"start":695.688,"end":722.337,"text":"已經承諾所謂協助立一個杯可是我認為這件事情應該不會只有地方政府的事情其實我相信在院長您的心中一定也對這樣的事情很有感觸所以是不是可以拜託體育署在所謂體育記憶文化傳承的部分我們不要只是立一個杯因為周思齊他身為一個選手他談的是這個事情但是用國家的高度如何協助記憶台灣的運動文化不要讓它流失甚至有非常多的文物"},{"start":723.057,"end":745.921,"text":"現在體育署只有做數位典藏但是一般人很沒有感甚至不知道我想這個運動文化記憶的傳承想要拜託行政院持續努力再來我時間有限我先講再來關於他在那一天的引退他講了一段話他說如果你們在牌桌上看到小兄弟拜託不要拍照但是請去告訴他們我們回去練球好嗎他在講的是大家共同的"},{"start":746.421,"end":766.487,"text":"直磅賭博的記憶我相信院長你一定也印象深刻當年球場只剩下101個人在1999年花了25年的時間台灣球場總算回到了4萬人院長我要跟你說到目前為止體育署本來應該要開的直磅防堵會議到現在一場都還沒有開已經快要年底了我要講的是"},{"start":767.347,"end":792.982,"text":"在相關的條例裡面我們也提出我們希望有防堵會議的落實我們希望有防堵信託的支持我們希望有法治教育的深化如果有這些支持我們的選手就不用成為被賭博的工具他們甚至可以不用被黑道威脅在那個時代的記憶走到現在周思齊還有今年隱退的三位選手包含關大元高國慶都談了相關的問題這個部分要拜託院長在新的部會裡面要積極的落實"},{"start":794.483,"end":823.462,"text":"最後一個就是全新跟全民的運動發展部我昨天在副院長的臉書也有看到您提出了全新的思維甚至相關的會議我們也看到行政院非常有誠意邀請了體談大佬、運動員、球員工會、帕運、新興運動還有所有的產業代表所以我相信絕對是一個新的思維但是在過去的框架裡面如何把新的思維放進去我相信絕對是後續行政的挑戰最後一個我們來看一下一個很可愛的照片院長你記得這張照片嗎"},{"start":824.864,"end":845.486,"text":"院長我想要問你看得出來裡面哪些是俱樂部的小孩哪些是學校體育班的小孩嗎應該看不出來對不對對我想我也是看不出來但是對我們來說他們就是台灣孩子他們就是台灣的兒少我想要談目前的規劃裡面我看不到兒少運動司我們之前一直在跟體育署開會可不可以提出一個"},{"start":846.187,"end":865.278,"text":"以兒少為主體政策去思考的兒少運動師不要局限在社區俱樂部也不要只有局限在學校的體育班不要只有局限在校隊如何把這個事情擴大到兒少運動師我覺得是有機會而且也想要拜託行政院去思考這個議題甚至我想要提出再次提出兒少教練證"},{"start":866.258,"end":883.147,"text":"還是有非常多的教練對於兒少的基本認識 非常的不足他可能只有運動相關專業的認知但是他並沒有兒少的認知所以我也想要在以兒少為主體的情況下拜託行政院提出相關的規劃以上四個議題關於運動的部分可不可以請院長快速回應一下 謝謝"},{"start":884.467,"end":908.648,"text":"謝謝委員的關心跟深入我會請我們體育局運動發展部院內的籌備小組 廣明星秘書長以及諮詢小組的召集人鄭麗君副院長他們能夠在請委員能夠把這些資料我們把它納到會議相關討論會議當中我覺得非常有他的意義臺灣不僅要有棒球的紀念那個圓山足球場我也很懷念"},{"start":909.153,"end":932.939,"text":"是是是沒錯沒錯好我最後還有20秒我只講一個標題就好了我們之後會再跟教育部討論會考制度已經實施10年了有非常多的事情其實需要重新盤點跟討論這個部分我想部長一定也會表達關心是不是後續我們還有機會再開持續的深入會議來討論關於會考制度造成的一些問題部長點頭當然好那我們就先謝謝部長後續我們會持續討論也謝謝院長謝謝"},{"start":935.967,"end":936.067,"text":"羅志強委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:32:08 - 09:47:55","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154865"},{"date":"2024-09-24","影片長度":"00:31:03","end_time":"2024-09-24T09:31:50+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154864","gazette":{"lineno":30,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時1分）謝謝院長，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：卓院長早安，我們今天來談經濟跟民生。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：希望不要漲電價，不要吃到進口的壞蛋。今天大概有很多記者都在問你，前兩個月（6月到8月）的電費高達將近兩萬度對不對？用了人民的納稅錢15萬，為什麼用這麼多呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，因為520之後還有一段整修的時間，我一直到6月中旬之後才陸續在官邸開一些跟部長的會議，我個人到6月底或7月初，詳細的日子我也忘記了，在6月底或7月初，我每個禮拜會使用兩天，但是只有我一個人，我的家人都沒有在官邸，所以這個用電的異常，我也覺得怪怪的，所以我們會請電力單位來做一些用電的檢查，同時我認為我還是要跟國人一樣，我們都要節約用電，我非常謝謝委員這樣的提醒。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你平常在官邸的時間應該沒那麼多啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：像前陣子嘉義發生風災，我們就去嘉義東石勘災、上阿里山勘災……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：現在這就是一個大問題了，你平常在官邸的時間那麼短，這個問題很嚴重，因為我對比了上一任陳建仁院長同樣時間的電費，人家少了你50%，你兩個月用了兩萬度，用了人民的納稅錢15萬，這是一個很重要的對比，所以現在有兩個問題要解決。第一個，院長，你用的是人民的納稅錢，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個可能更嚴重喔，你不是講要節能省電嗎？你的電怎麼會兩個月用到兩萬度？有人在開玩笑，你在裡面挖礦嗎？挖比特幣嗎？現在臺灣除了詐騙機房之外，一個官邸要用到這麼多的電嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該清楚，官邸不是我一個人在使用，有很多的安全維護人員，當我在大院在備詢的時候或是在外面，還是有安全維護人員在官邸裡面使用……"],["張委員啓楷：所以我才會用這樣的對比，院長，所以我才會拿陳建仁院長、同樣是院長的官邸去做對比，同樣的時間點，你多出人家50%，這個趕快去改，好不好？你剛剛講你要去查，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，要查。"],["張委員啓楷：更重要的，這樣人民觀感就會很不好……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定要查出來。"],["張委員啓楷：所以要怎麼把這個電節省下來，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你要趕快去做這件事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：4月到6月我使用的時間非常短，它也增加了3,700度左右；6月到8月，我有使用比較多一點，它增加了3,900度，我覺得這個數字都非常的異常。"],["張委員啓楷：其實不是只有行政院院長的官邸出問題而已，給你看一下，你知道今年中央部會一共花了多少人民的納稅錢幫你們付電費嗎？今年喔！80億。更離譜的，送來的預算書，我們一本一本去翻，明年中央政府竟然要用到101億，暴增了21億，現在不是單純的、只有你自己的官邸用太多，多了50%出來，而是明年竟然一下子要用到101億人民的納稅錢，暴增了25%，會不會太離譜了？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，這兩個部分跟委員解釋，111年我們電費漲了8.4%，112年跟113年各漲了11%左右，所以加起來這三年的30%，過去都沒有反映在預算裡面，而我們這次把它編了，這是第一部分。第二部分，過去台電吸收……"],["張委員啓楷：你是說以前都沒漲的，現在一次把它漲足嗎？院長，以前為什麼沒有漲，就是人民不能這麼苦，店家不能這麼苦，所以你才會沒有漲這麼多嘛！你現在變成是以前沒漲的，把原因全部抹掉，然後再一次編足，在上面編了101億嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是沒漲，是以前漲價之後都是吸收，都沒有編漲價的費用。第二點，現在台電不再負擔這麼多的政策吸收，所以回歸到教育部、衛福部等等部會單位，由目的事業主管機關編自己的預算來支應電費，就是回到部會裡面來，所以在雙重因素之下，電費的編列是比較多的。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，所以你講的是兩件事嘛！你以前在做政策補貼給某些單位，對不對？你現在要改嘛！這是第一個；第二個是我剛才提醒的，以前沒有漲，不代表現在可以漲，以前為什麼沒辦法漲這麼多、沒辦法補，因為人民已經很苦啊！很多店家跟產業已經很苦啊！所以才不能漲那麼多嘛！你現在倒果為因，以前沒有漲的就全部把它補足，沒有這種事情！"],["卓院長榮泰：電費已經漲了！"],["張委員啓楷：以前不能漲，現在就不能漲，對不對？而且以前沒有漲的全部都放在這一次，人民受得了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：電費已經漲了，但是過去三年電費都沒有反映在預算裡面，都是機關吸收漲價的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：80億還不夠多啊？院長，今年這80億還不夠多嗎？明年101億還不夠多嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你要聽我講清楚，是漲價的部分沒有反映在預算裡面，今年是把它放在預算裡面，把過去三年漲價的放進去。"],["張委員啓楷：80億已經很多很多了，明年一下子漲到101億，你說這是把它一次補足，人民還是受不了啊！所以這個預算我們一定會嚴審，好不好？","我更期待的是，現在總預算退回去了，我覺得院長可以去想一想，真的！以前沒有漲的，全部就在一年裡面，你要增加25%、增加21億，再想一下，好不好？回去總預算調整的時候，去調一下電費的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：過去三年漲了30%，所以現在把它反映在預算上面……"],["張委員啓楷：你本來就有反映啊！沒有反映的原因，就是以前不能加這麼高，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是請委員在審查預算的時候實質討論，我們希望部會首長跟部會的官員都能夠向大院來清楚說明。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！我很期待、很期待，透過這一次總預算退回去程序委員會，不只是原住民的禁伐補償，包括我們農民的公糧收購，明年的總預算增加4,000億，但原住民那個部分預算才多少？21億；我們公糧收購一年也才60億，那個都是零頭，要照顧原住民你不照顧，要照顧農民你不照顧，卻一下增加4,000億，為什麼？現在有機會退回去程序委員會，我拜託院長重新想一下，電費不要多這麼多，這是要調整的。第二個，怎麼去照顧我們原住民？怎麼去照顧我們的鄉下？想一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：任何一筆預算都要經過合理的編列。"],["張委員啓楷：對！"],["卓院長榮泰：程序要合法合憲，這樣我們才能夠保持預算的完整性。"],["張委員啓楷：原住民禁伐補償條例是我們三讀通過的；我們台灣民眾黨提出公糧收購，一公斤提高5塊錢，是經過院會通過的，這都是法定的預算，這次有個機會退回程序委員會，請趕快補破網，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個可以跟大院再好好地討論，這樣的編列方式如果可行，將來行政院編列預算的法定權利將會被破壞，我們不願意這樣做，但是我們希望各部會在編列預算的時候，能夠具體說明清楚；審查預算的時候，也能夠很清楚地捍衛自己的預算，這樣整個預算的完整性才能完整。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，今年4月1日調的平均幅度是11%，民生用電只有5%到10%，我剛剛提醒你了，你一下增加了25%、101億……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是連過去兩、三年的……"],["張委員啓楷：我再給你看一個，我從你個人官邸談到整體的預算，現在進一步我們來看某些機關，總統府明年的水電費要增加28%；司法院一下子跳了60%。剛剛講了，這是在挖礦、挖比特幣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員這種形容非常不當。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼總統府的……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員這種形容非常不當。你說司法院在挖比特幣，這樣形容非常不當，我覺得不要這樣形容。"],["張委員啓楷：這是民間在諷刺為什麼……"],["卓院長榮泰：民間哪有諷刺在挖比特幣？"],["張委員啓楷：總統府一下增加那麼多？院長我問你，這是誰的錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：大家、國人的錢。"],["張委員啓楷：用我們人民的納稅錢來付你們的水電費，結果幅度漲這麼高？你不掏人民的錢……"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛跟委員講過，那是三年的比例，為什麼委員都不談論這一點，一直用你一開始的論調呢？這樣我們沒有辦法對話嘛！三年來調整了30%，但過去沒有反映在預算上，這次反映上去了，是這樣的計算方式。在進入實質審查之後，委員如果有意見，可以在審查時跟各部會首長好好去討論。不過這要做合理的編列，這個我們都接受。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你解釋是因為三年沒有漲，所以這次要漲足……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是沒有漲……"],["張委員啓楷：我剛剛已經跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是沒有漲，是三年沒有反映。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，當初沒有漲一定有它的理由，而且已經漲得夠多了！這三年已經漲得夠多了，你也反映在上面。更嚴重的是，這次一次漲25%……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：人民不會接受的！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：人民是不會接受的！"],["卓院長榮泰：兩、三年前……"],["張委員啓楷：如同你說的，審查的時候我們再來好好討論……"],["卓院長榮泰：4月或9月漲電價時，並沒有辦法適時反映在預算上，委員應該知道這個時程。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，人民看到電費單都已經快昏倒了，你還說沒有完全反映？"],["卓院長榮泰：我同意委員的觀點，就是……"],["張委員啓楷：人民已經受不了，已經夠苦了，你還說沒有足夠的反映？"],["卓院長榮泰：終結是要節約用電，沒有錯，所以我們全力在做，也鼓勵國人在做。至於預算的編列是反映過去三年的漲幅，把它反映在預算上，但終結還是要節約用電，這個我完全同意。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我們今年來談一個很重要的事情。今天最新的新聞說10月1日要漲電價，原來講要漲多少？若不給1,000億補貼的話就要漲12%到13%，現在一下子要漲13%到14%，為什麼突然又調高了？第二個，你們這是情緒勒索嗎？還是恐嚇取財？"],["卓院長榮泰：先請經濟部答一下。"],["張委員啓楷：一下子說一定要撥補，不撥補就要漲電價，有這種道理嗎？把人民當盤子、當肥羊，是不是？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，撥補台電是為了改善台電的財務結構，跟電價沒有關係！電價是由電價審議會……"],["張委員啓楷：次長，等一下。改善財務有很多方法，可以開源節流，有很多方法，為什麼要拿1,000億的人民納稅錢來補上？院長我提醒你，台電的資產可以重估，資產可以活化。既然說要改善財務，那麼這是最簡單的，臺鐵現在不是正在做嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼不做資產重估或活化，反而拿1,000億又1,000億的人民納稅錢去補？"],["陳次長正祺：經濟部已經請……"],["張委員啓楷：我先提醒，第一個，不要為了台電本身的錯誤拿人民的1,000億撥補！然後不要再漲電價，可以嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：第一點，電價要不要漲，要等電價審議會來決定，並不是政府能夠主導的，而且現在外部委員已經過半，所以未來電價是漲或跌，要由電價審議會來決定。第二點，1,000億的撥補，如同院長所說，由台電吸收之後他的財務結構需要補充。但是我要跟委員報告，我們已經請台電做資產重估、活化資產、改善經營效率、多方採購等等，這些都會照委員指示來做。"],["張委員啓楷：上個禮拜郭部長在這裡說，如果這1,000億有撥補，應該就不會有漲價的問題。我現在進一步跟你講，根本不用為了台電的財務撥補這1,000億，有更好的方法嘛！台電資產達2兆1,000億，自己不努力、不開源節流，包括能源政策錯誤在內，然後從人民身上掏錢？所以這1,000億本來就不應該給！如果像郭部長上禮拜講的，那麼第一，1,000億要去想辦法，不要再從人民身上撥補；第二，10月1日不要再漲電價了！我問一下院長，你上禮拜五說4月1日民生用電已經漲了，民生很苦，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：4月1日……"],["張委員啓楷：今年愚人節已經漲過一次了，你上禮拜五說過，而且漲電價一方面會衝擊到物價，一方面要穩定民生，所以你也傾向10月1日不要漲，對不對？"],["陳次長正祺：這個是政府的期待啦，但還是要由電價審議會來決定。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我在問院長，院長今天能不能清楚的跟全民允諾10月1號不要再漲電價了？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，這個……"],["張委員啓楷：你是比較接地氣的喔，我剛剛已經講了，第一個，現在電費已經太高，人民已經苦哈哈了，對不對？第二個，你上個禮拜也講了，你認為這個會衝擊到物價、衝擊到民生，甚至你之前都講了，4月1號漲了就不要再漲了啊，你今天……"],["卓院長榮泰：好，報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：你今天要不要清楚的跟人民講不要漲電價？10月要不要漲？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，雖然電價審議委員會還沒有開，但是我想能夠擔任電價審議委員的這些先進們都會觀測到整個社會民生的需求。我個人認為，雖然我們的民生用電現在是低於台電的發電成本，但是基於民生用電的需求，政府應該想盡各種方法來對民生用電讓它有平穩的機制，不要再增加大家的負擔，這是要的。但是我們的產業結構，這些用電大戶的用電量跟用電單價，我覺得我們就讓電價審議委員會來討論，結論現在沒有人知道，但是我是希望……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你講這個很重要喔，你說希望馬上要開的電價審議委員會民生用電絕對不要漲了。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我個人的期待。"],["張委員啓楷：要嘛就去檢討包含工業用電這些，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我個人的期待。"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？這件事是很重要的，你個人的期待是這樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以再跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：如果照經濟部上次部長在這邊的說法，就是10月1號儘量不要再漲了，好，我們進一步來……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以一句話就是，這個討論跟追加預算的1,000億是不一樣的，追加預算就是要來看過去台電支付那麼多的政策目標之後，它的財政及財務上健全需不需要讓它能夠順利的經營，以及民生用電需不需要政府多投入一些來協助，讓它能夠平穩，我們要用這個方式來講。另外，台電花了很多錢做電網韌性的改善，這個要不要增加一些錢讓它處理。"],["張委員啓楷：好，因為電價審議委員會馬上就要開了，我們要決定10月1號要不要漲電價。"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是我決定的。"],["張委員啓楷：但大家生氣的是今天媒體已經講了，不只是原來的12%至13%，它一下子要漲13%至14%，但我們經過今天這樣的對話，以人民為主，我們儘量民生用電不要再去碰到了，甚至更進一步的，老實講……"],["卓院長榮泰：我只能說這是我的……"],["張委員啓楷：現在很多產業用電也是很辛苦，儘量……"],["卓院長榮泰：我只能說這是我個人的想法……"],["張委員啓楷：院長、院長，我做個簡單的結論，第一個，我們儘量往10月1號不要漲電價方向去走，好不好？我們儘量往這個方向去走。","OK，接下來我們來討論1,000億的部分，你在別的地方可以找到這1,000億啊，為什麼每一次都要從大家、人民的口袋裡面去掏錢呢？大家看一下，從2022年12月開始，你們透過認股增資1,500億，特別預算500億，然後經濟部又認股增資1,000億，過去3年已經拿了人民的納稅錢3,000億去補了台電。另外，大家看一下右邊這個表，過去三年漲了三次電價，一次漲8.4%，一次漲11%，一次漲11%，三年漲了30%！院長，我現在要提醒你，最重要的是什麼？你現在看到一個趨勢了，撥補、漲價，撥補、漲價，撥補、漲價，結果問題有解決嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，因為……"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，去年底的時候，三千八百多億的這個虧損，你們說今年4月1號讓我漲一下電價，結果虧損越來越嚴重啊，現在變成無底洞，就表示你現在用撥補，院長，你現在用撥補和漲人民的電價，你不只沒有解決問題，你變成一個無底洞啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個每次漲價都沒有漲到應該有的成本，這個是政策……"],["張委員啓楷：你又繞回來了，人民已經很苦，當然就不能再漲啊，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以要用撥補的方式來填補這個財務的狀況，今年4月漲價之後……"],["張委員啓楷：可是你現在就是一方面還是要漲電價，10月1號馬上就要漲……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我說過去……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你還是要撥補啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以今年4月漲價之後，我現在數字忘記了，台電的營收狀況有所改善，漲價之後有所改善，但距離它的成本當然還是有相當的距離啦。這一次希望電價審議委員會能夠在這個時機點做什麼樣的決定，我們就尊重。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，透過我們這樣對話你有沒有發現，你在講漲電價的同時，在講撥補的時候，你都解決不了問題，就是台電的虧損是越來越大的，有發現這個問題嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為過去它就是……"],["張委員啓楷：如果行政院長和現在的執政黨沒有辦法解決問題，只能從人民的身上去掏錢撥補……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就是要解決問題……"],["張委員啓楷：一直漲電價，人民對你們不會很失望嗎？人民不會很苦嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：也許委員認為是左手跟右手，目的事業主管機關來付或台電來付，在委員看也許是左手、右手，但是就台電來看，就是它財務能不能健全、經營能不能適妥的一個方式。現在我們就是把它的很多補貼政策移到目的事業主管機關來，希望台電能夠真正的自立、自營的來經營它的……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你現在提了一個方法，就是用政策補貼的要改回去啦，例如說可能各個機關以前是台電負擔的，這個我贊成……"],["卓院長榮泰：這才是一個正常之道。"],["張委員啓楷：可是我要再提醒你，這個是杯水車薪，真正的財務解決要從根做起，最簡單的嘛，我們從國小就唸過……"],["卓院長榮泰：好、好，我們就從這個地方開始大力地來推動。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，解決方法我們從國小就唸過了，開源節流嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：開源節流嘛，我剛剛給你看的就是節流，從你的官邸到各個機關用的水電費，一直到各個機關，包括總統府跟司法院，不要用那麼多的電，你叫人民要省電，結果政府「歹鬼𤆬頭」，你們是「歹鬼𤆬頭」嘛！所以我們來得及補破網，院長，來得及補破網，趕快把政府的用電跟上人民的省電，金額不要那麼多，這是要省的嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我也承諾官邸的用電狀況我們一定馬上查清楚，跟大家報告。"],["張委員啓楷：好，解決方法很簡單嘛，就是開源節流，你提的是開源節流的一部分嘛，對不對？政策補貼改變了嘛！","來，我們看一下，其實我們的電價應該是往下降而不是往上漲，每次你們要漲的時候，這是一個最重要的因素，你們每次都說俄烏戰爭以後天然氣價格暴漲，院長，我給你看一下，我們來看這張圖，這是天然氣最近這幾年的趨勢圖，給大家看一下這個圖，院長，你有看到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有，我看到2022年跟2023年很高啊！不是嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：你看喔，天然氣價格最暴增的時候就是在上面那個2022年到2023年，可是你有發現嗎？2023年就往下掉了。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：現在民國幾年？現在2024年嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：2024年，你看右邊這個圖跟左邊的2017年、2018年相比，現在國際天然氣的價格從去年、2023年就開始掉了，掉到現在比2017年跟2018年還低，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以剛剛和委員報告，4月之後台電的盈餘狀況是有所改善的，跟這個也有相關啦。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛已經講過啦。"],["張委員啓楷：所以院長，這個就很重要，所以電費應該要降啊，你怎麼反而往上飆呢？你的成本，你的購電成本在往下掉的時候，竟然電費不是降而是往上……"],["卓院長榮泰：是成本的關係，我們電費的原則第一個是反映成本，第二個是照顧民生，第三個是穩定物價，再來是節能減碳，所以第一個要反映成本，過去都沒有辦法反映成本，因為原料也高，各種都很高，現在是儘量把它接近成本。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，是你們跟大家說的，從上一任的總統跟院長，到你這一任的院長跟總統，還有經濟部，你們一直跟我們講為什麼虧損會那麼嚴重，包括要漲電價，你們的購電成本還是高的嘛，所以我今天給你看啊，你們一直講天然氣啊，但這個圖清清楚楚了吧，它已經掉下來了！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以今年是改善的啊，今年是改善的……"],["張委員啓楷：所以院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：但過去虧損太多……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，所以改善了！院長、院長，既然改善了，所以電價是不是要往下降？你怎麼往上調？"],["卓院長榮泰：過去虧損太多，我們距離成本還是有距離的，距離發電成本還是有距離的。"],["張委員啓楷：你已經在過去3年撥補了3,000億以上，然後你也已經漲了3次電價了，你還跟我說還撥不夠？","次長，你不要講。","來，你已經撥補那麼多，也漲了那麼多，我再重複一次好不好，3年撥補了3,000億以上，3年漲價漲了30%以上，你不就是該補起來了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：那有相當的比例……"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼還補不夠呢？這是第一點。","第二個，你們一直掛在嘴邊的是什麼？天然氣的價格……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是台電負擔很多的補貼政策，政府必須做這些補貼政策……"],["張委員啓楷：你又繞回去了，補貼的不是你剛才說了嘛，我贊成嘛，你回去……"],["卓院長榮泰：還有民生用電一直是低於成本的，所以政府也要穩定民生用電的成本計算，不要漲太多的民生用電，這個是已經存在多年的事實，所以它的財務狀況一直不是很好，尤其到了2022年、2023年整個燃料、能源上漲之後，它的級距是加深的。今年我們在4月調漲之後，以及現在能源的變化，今年度4月之後到現在是有所改善的，但過去的虧損仍然很多，就是那兩個原因，一個是穩定民生，一個就是政策的支應。現在我們把政策這部分回到各目的事業主管機關，我們希望用追加預算來填補民生用電的部分，這樣，我們期待一年、兩年之後的台電所呈現出來的，跟現在的經營狀況會有所不同。那天郭部長在這裡也很大聲的說，兩年之內他希望能夠有所改善，希望給經濟部這樣一段時間，也給辛苦、努力的台電同仁一個鼓勵。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我們臺灣人民的水準是很高的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我想從這個圖很清楚的看出來，就是前幾年政府一直在講，因為天然氣價格暴增，所以電費必須漲，今天很清楚，從這個圖看出來，拜託一下，現在電費應該是考慮要往下降了，不是再往上漲，我進一步來……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在的電價跟發電成本還有距離。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼？對，問題來了，為什麼？你的發電成本應該是往下降，你用天然氣用那麼多，你以前漲電價，發電成本高也是因為天然氣，現在天然氣價格降啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們以氣換煤，這個是政策……"],["張委員啓楷：來來來，所以問題出在什麼地方？一定還有另外一個漏洞，你沒有跟人民講，你有一個沒有跟人民講的真相。為什麼成本還在增加？天然氣明明已經降了，為什麼？這段時間出了什麼問題？你們廢核嘛！對不對？來，院長，我給你看一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，不是。現在核能的比例已經相當低了，所以核能發電的部分並不能降低太多的成本，因為現在是在彌補過去的狀況，過去的補貼政策，現在台電的財務是不健全的，希望能夠讓它的財務健全，兩年之後，那天郭部長講了，他很勇敢而且負責任的講，兩年之內要讓台電的經營能夠順暢，能夠進入到一個正常的經營狀態，那我們應該給台電這樣努力的空間，所以，我們儘量把它的財務狀況調得比較健全一點，不要負擔太多的政策責任。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，台電的要怎麼樣做才可以財務健全？"],["卓院長榮泰：很多方式，可以討論……"],["張委員啓楷：它本來是金雞母，回到剛剛那張圖給大家看一下，台電是一個金雞母，回到上面那張圖，台電為什麼從金雞母變成敗家子？你一直講財務的問題，你看喔！2017年、2018年的時候，台電都還是金雞母，都還是賺錢的。2017年，那時候台電賺多少錢？118億；2018年的時候還賺了35億，光是今年，2024年不只沒有賺錢，還要淨損2,124億，為什麼有這麼大的落差？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也非常不能接受……"],["張委員啓楷：你同樣用天然氣，現在天然氣的價格已經比2017年跟18年還低了，那時候是賺錢的，為什麼現在賠這麼多？你在講財務，問題在哪裡？我們看下一張，好不好，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：賠的就是兩、三年前……"],["張委員啓楷：問題在你剛剛講的，你把核電廢掉之後，你有跟人民講嗎？你廢掉核電之後我們每一年要增加多少錢，你有跟人民講過這個事嗎？這就是你所謂的財務。院長，最便宜的電是什麼電？我們看下一張，你看台電，你知道核電一度電成本是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，核電你在現場買很便宜，售後服務就很貴。"],["張委員啓楷：你在講的售後服務，那部分有核後端基金，你不曉得這件事嗎？核後端基金已經有4,000多億擺在那裡啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，但是報告委員，那也是人民的錢，不是嗎？那也是人民的錢啊。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，你的再生能源買很貴啊，現在是兩個問題嘛！你在講財務，你現在出了問題，我剛剛跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有綠能，很多先進產業需要用綠能的。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我現在在跟你講，為什麼你以前是賺錢的，現在賠錢，那你有去看那個能源結構到底出了什麼問題？第一個就是因為你把核電停掉了嘛；第二個你買了很多再生能源，這兩個價格差很多，你有沒有跟人民講這個事情？而且，你那個真相沒有講，要跟全民去講清楚，核電，因為你明年還要廢掉核三廠的二號機，我們人民的用電成本會越來越高，所以它造成要漲電價。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們還要很多的錢用於核二、核三的後續……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，再生能源我們沒有反對用，抱歉，讓我講完，院長，讓我講完。院長，我們沒有反對你去發展再生能源，可是太陽能出現那麼多的弊案，很多案子顯然就是花了太多錢，這才是兩個真正的原因嘛。","我給大家看一下這個圖表，來、來、來，看一下上一個核三的。院長，你在廢核的同時是不是要跟人民講，這幾年為什麼一直在漲電價，一直在撥補，就是因為核一已經沒有了，核二已經沒有了，核三的一號機已經被你停了，明年二號機又要停，這代價有多高，你知道嗎？人民到底要付多少錢？你有沒有跟人民解釋過，跟人民講過這個事情？院長，你有去統計過這個嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，所謂的真相就是核電買起來很便宜，確實比較便宜，可是它事後的售後服務非常的貴，每一筆錢都是，而且它的建設費用也很高，這個都要算進去的，現在核電占的比例已經相當低了。"],["張委員啓楷：你核一廠、核二廠、核三廠不都建好了，那核四廠都建好了，不是嗎？而且你講後端，我們每一度電裡面就會有核廢料的處理，有核後端的基金啊！四千多億放在那裡啊！本來就在那裡啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這也是人民的錢，所以繼續的用，就會繼續要處理核廢料。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你剛剛講的是有問題的，院長，來、來、來，我覺得人民最關心的就是10月1日不要漲電價，第二個，你要跟人民把真相講清楚，因為你們廢核，這是你們的神主牌或者你們的意識形態嘛！這個代價有多高？來，我們來看看，這是從台電的官網抓下來的資料，核電1度電的成本是1.13元，對不對？夠便宜了吧！你剛剛在講的核後端處理基金四千多億也在那裡啦！用火力發電1度要多少？2.98元；用再生能源是5.39元。在這段時間你剛剛講為什麼一直在拿錢，漲人民的電價，一直在撥補？就是因為核一停了，核二停了，核三的一號機停了，那個代價有多高？來，你這個數學題，電是科學問題，也是簡單的數學題，你知道嗎？院長，你算一下，跳回去，你算一下，光是一個核三廠好了，核三廠去年……抱歉，請暫停一下。"],["主席：時間到了，啓楷委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以私下再談。"],["張委員啓楷：我們等一下再談，就是那個成本的問題要好好去解釋，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第9號陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 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行政院院長的這個官邸出問題而已啦我給他看一下你知道今年 中央部會一共花了多少的人民納稅錢嗎幫你們付電費嗎 今年喔 八十億 更離譜的"},{"start":241.687,"end":251.877,"text":"我們送來的預算書裡面我們一本一本去翻明年的中央政府竟然要用到101億暴增了25億"},{"start":256.109,"end":266.637,"text":"現在不是只有你單純你自己的官邸用太多多了50%出來喔明年竟然一下子用到一百零億人民的納稅錢暴增了25%這個兩個部分跟委員解釋111年我們電費漲了8.4%112年跟113年各漲了11%左右所以加起來這三年的30%"},{"start":279.106,"end":307.739,"text":"過去的預算都沒有反映在預算裡面我們這次把它編了這是第一部分第二部分過去台電吸收以前都沒漲的現在一次把它漲足喔議員長以前為什麼沒有漲就是人民不能這麼苦店家不能這麼苦所以你才會不要漲這麼多嘛你現在變成說一次以前都沒漲的把盈利全部抹掉然後再一次要不要編足不是沒漲以前漲價之後都是吸收都沒有編漲價的費用那第二點我們現在"},{"start":309.242,"end":311.972,"text":"臺電不再負擔這麼多的政策吸收所以回歸到"},{"start":312.833,"end":337.853,"text":"教育部衛福部等等部會首長部會單位他們就目的事業主管機關編自己的預算來適應電費所以回到部會裡面來所以雙重的因素之下電費的這個編列是比較多的院長所以你講的是兩件事嘛你以前在做政策補貼給某些單位對不對你現在要改嘛這是一個第二個是我剛才提醒的以前沒有漲不代表現在可以漲因為以前為什麼沒辦法漲這麼多沒辦法補"},{"start":339.727,"end":350.996,"text":"人民已經很苦啊﹖很多店家跟產業已經很苦啊﹖所以才不能漲那麼多嘛﹖以前不能漲﹖以前不能漲﹖現在就不能漲對不對﹖而且你把以前沒有漲的全部放在這一次﹖人民受得了嗎﹖電費已經漲了﹖但是過去3年﹖電費都沒有反映在預算裡面﹖"},{"start":362.385,"end":364.206,"text":"所以這個預算我們一定會延審好不好"},{"start":390.848,"end":398.2,"text":"我更期待了現在總預算退回去嘛我覺得院長你可以去想一想真的以前沒有漲的全部在才一年裡面你要增加25%增加21億"},{"start":400.98,"end":403.942,"text":"是不是讓請委員在審查預算的時候實質討論我們希望部會首長跟部會的官員都能夠向大院來清楚說明"},{"start":424.414,"end":425.035,"text":"明年的總預算增加4000億"},{"start":441.36,"end":468.658,"text":"那個原住民那個預算才多少 21億我們公糧收購一年也60億 那個都是零頭你要照顧原住民不照顧要照顧農民不照顧 要增加4000億 為什麼現在有機會退回去城區委員我拜託 拜託院長重新想一下 一個是電費不要多這麼多 這是要調整的第二個怎麼照顧我們原住民 怎麼照顧農民 想一下好不好都要經過合理的編列都要經過合理的編列 程序要合法合憲"},{"start":472.2,"end":496.116,"text":"原住民的這個進法條例是我們三讀通過的我們台灣民眾黨提的公糧收購提高一公斤提高五塊錢是經過院會通過的這都是法定的預算這次有個機會退到程序會議趕快補破網好不好這個可以跟大院再好好的討論這樣的編列方式如果可行將來行政院編列預算的法定權利將會被破壞那我們不願意這樣做但是我們希望說各部會"},{"start":496.716,"end":524.75,"text":"在編列預算的時候能夠具體說明清楚審查預算的時候也能夠很清楚的捍衛自己的預算這樣整個預算的完整性才能完整院長今年4月1號調的平均的這個幅度是11%民生用電只有5到10那我剛提醒你了你一下增加了25% 101那是連過去兩三年的我再給你看一個我從你個人的觀底談到整體的預算再來進一步我們來看某些機關來"},{"start":529.983,"end":542.337,"text":"總統府明年的水電費要增加28%施法院一下子跳了60%剛剛在講在挖礦挖比特幣嗎"},{"start":544.476,"end":561.343,"text":"委員這種形容非常不當委員這種形容非常不當你說司法院在挖比特幣這樣形容非常不當我絕對不要用這樣的形容是民間在諷刺為什麼民間黨有這樣共識在挖比特幣這個錢是誰的錢大家國人的錢我們人民的納稅錢付你們水電費結果這個幅度漲這麼高"},{"start":569.448,"end":598.133,"text":"你不掏人民的錢我剛剛跟委員講過那是三年的為什麼委員都不談論這一點一直用你一開始的論調呢那我們這裡沒有辦法這樣對話嘛我說這是三年來調整的百分之三十過去沒有反映在預算上甚至把它反映上去了就是這樣的計算方式那進入實質審查之後委員如果有意見可以在審查的時候跟我們的各部委首長好好的去討論那這個要做一個合理的編列這個我們都接受"},{"start":598.953,"end":623.387,"text":"議員長你解釋了三年沒有漲 這次要把它漲熟我剛剛已經跟你講了 第一個當初沒有漲一定有它的理由 而且已經漲得過多了這三年已經漲得過多了 你都反應在上面 第二更嚴重的 你再一次要漲25%人民是不會接受的 人民是不會接受的 沒關係 今天你說的我們到審判桌好好來討論"},{"start":624.087,"end":632.568,"text":"欸!"},{"start":632.762,"end":634.943,"text":"今天也是一個很重要的事情"},{"start":663.783,"end":685.522,"text":"今天的最新的新聞啊說10月1號要漲電價而且幅度本來跟原來講的本來說要漲多少不給你1000億的補貼你要漲12到13%現在一下子要漲到13到14為什麼突然又調高了第二個你們這是情緒勒索嗎甚至什麼這恐惡取材嗎"},{"start":686.892,"end":714.289,"text":"你一下子一定要給你撥補,你撥撥補我就要漲你的電價,有這種道理嗎?把人民當什麼?當帕納薩,當培養是不是?報告委員,撥補台電是為了改善台電的財務結構,跟電價沒有關係,電價是由電價審議匯率市長等一下等一下等一下等一下,你要改善你的財務也有很多方法啊你開源節流啊,你有很多方法,你為什麼要拿人民納稅錢一千億又補上去?院長我提醒你一下齁"},{"start":716.182,"end":741.856,"text":"臺電的資產可以重估他的資產可以活化現在你說要改善這個財務最簡單的啊臺鐵現在不是正在做嗎為什麼你為什麼不去做自己的財資產的這個重估或者是這個活化你反而拿這筆納稅錢一千億一千億這樣去補嗎我先提醒你這一點第一個所以不要為了所謂你本身臺電的錯誤要去漲人民的一千億"},{"start":743.356,"end":757.283,"text":"不要去讓我們撥補然後不要再漲我們電價可以嗎第一點電價要不要漲要等電價審議會來決定並不是政府能夠主導而且現在外部委員已經過半所以對於電價未來要怎麼樣漲或跌這要由電價審議會來決定"},{"start":759.284,"end":774.521,"text":"第二點一千億的撥補是因為過去向院長講由臺電吸收之後他的財務結構需要補充但是我要跟委員報告我們已經請臺電要做資產重估火化資產改善經營效率多方採購等等這些都會照原理自然做"},{"start":776.82,"end":805.441,"text":"郭部長說如果這個一千億有撥補應該就是不會有漲這個價的問題那我現在進一步跟你講你這一千億根本就是不用是為了臺電的財務去做這個一千億的撥補有更好的方法嘛你臺電的資產兩兆一千億欸你自己不努力不做開源節流的事情包括你能源政策錯誤你從人民的身上掏錢所以這個一千億本來就不應該給那如果是像郭部長上禮拜講的"},{"start":806.854,"end":825.787,"text":"第一個一千億我們去想辦法不要從人民身上再去撥補第二個10月1號就不要再漲電價了我問一下部長 問一下議員你聽我講你說4月1號民生用電已經漲了民生很苦對不對4月1號今年漁人節已經漲過一次了你聽我講這個漲電價一方面衝擊到物價一方面要穩定民生你也是傾向說10月1號不要漲對不對"},{"start":836.238,"end":861.143,"text":"這個是政府的期待但是還是要由電價審議會來決定你今天能不能清楚跟全民贏10月1號不要再漲電價了你是比較接地氣的我剛剛已經講了第一個現在電費已經太高人民已經哭哈哈的第一個你上禮拜也講了你認為這個會衝擊到物價衝擊到民生甚至你之前都講了10月1號漲了就不要再漲了你今天清楚的跟人民講"},{"start":863.583,"end":889.142,"text":"雖然電價審議委員會還沒有開啊但是我想能夠擔任是電價審議委員的這些先進們都會觀測到整個社會民生的需求我個人認為雖然我們的民生用電現在是低於台電的發電成本但是基於民生用電的需求政府應該想盡各種方法來對民生的用電"},{"start":889.991,"end":890.011,"text":"張啓楷"},{"start":902.895,"end":921.494,"text":"我們就讓這個電價審議委員會來討論 結論現在沒有人知道 但是我是希望你講這個很重要啊 你說希望馬上要開的電價審議委員會 民生用電絕對不要漲了 要嘛就去檢討包括工業用電是不是這樣子"},{"start":921.994,"end":926.736,"text":"所以一句話就是這個討論跟追加預算一千億是不一樣的追加預算那就是要來看過去台電支付那麼多的政策目標之後"},{"start":942.623,"end":952.101,"text":"他在財政財務上的健全需不需要讓他能夠順利的經營以及民生用電需不需要政府多投一些來協助讓他能夠平穩"},{"start":952.745,"end":975.458,"text":"那我們要用這個方式來講另外臺電花了很多錢做電網韌性的改善這個要不要增加一些錢讓他處理因為電價審議委員會馬上就要開了我們要決定10月1號要不要漲電價那大家生氣的是今天的媒體已經講了不只原來的12到13%他一下子要漲13到14那我們經過今天這樣的對話以人民為主"},{"start":976.363,"end":1002.757,"text":"我們盡量民生用電不要再去碰到了甚至更進一步的現在很多產業用電也是很辛苦我只能說這是我我自己的想法我個人的想法第一個我們盡量再往10月1號不要漲電價的方向去走好不好我們盡量往這邊去走接下來我們來討論那個1000億別的地方可以找到這1000億阿你為什麼每次都要從大家的人民的口袋裡面去掏錢呢大家看一下"},{"start":1005.786,"end":1024.299,"text":"從2022年的12月開始你們透過認股的增資1500特別預算500然後經濟部又認股增資1000過去的3年已經拿了人民的納稅錢3000億去補了台電另外大家看右邊這個表"},{"start":1027.319,"end":1047.159,"text":"過去三年 漲了三次的電價一次漲8.4一次漲11%一次漲11%三年 三年漲了三年漲了30%院長我現在提醒你最重要是什麼你現在看到一個趨勢了波普 漲價波普 漲價波普 漲價結果問題有解決嗎"},{"start":1051.801,"end":1058.848,"text":"股泥 去年底的時候3800多億的虧損你們說今年4月1號讓我漲一下電價結果虧損越來越嚴重現在變成無底洞 就表示你現在用撥補跟漲人民的電價你不只沒有解決問題 你變成個無底洞"},{"start":1078.456,"end":1078.596,"text":"報告委員："},{"start":1098.77,"end":1103.172,"text":"院長 透過我們這樣對話你沒有發現你在講漲電價的同時在講撥補的時候你都解決不了問題就台電那個虧損數越來越大的"},{"start":1127.796,"end":1133.261,"text":"也許委員認為是左手跟右手目的是使主管機關來付或是台電來付再委員看也許是左手右手"},{"start":1148.917,"end":1176.523,"text":"但就台電來看就是他財務能不能健全經營能不能適妥的一個方式現在我們就是把他的很多的補貼政策移到目的實業主管機關來我們希望台電能夠真正的自立自營來經營他的財務院長你現在提了一個方法啦就是用政策補貼要改回去啦例如說可能各個機關以前台電負擔這才是一個正常之道可是我再提醒你這個咧嘴車薪真正要財務的解決"},{"start":1177.813,"end":1204.442,"text":"要重更奏起 這簡單的嘛我們從國小就練過 從這個地方開始大體的來推動開源節流嘛 對不對開源節流嘛 我剛給你看的就是節流從你的官邸 到各個機關的用水電費一直到各個機關 總統府跟司法院不要用那麼多的電你叫人民說要省電結果政府拍幾串頭"},{"start":1206.34,"end":1206.98,"text":"其實我們的電價應該是往下降不是往上漲"},{"start":1236.274,"end":1246.477,"text":"每次你們在講說要漲的時候這是一個最重要的因素你特別都說烏鶴戰爭以後天然氣暴漲這張圖來我們看一下那張圖這個是天然氣最近這幾年他的整個趨勢圖給大家看一下這個圖你有沒有看到2022跟2023很高阿你看齁"},{"start":1264.992,"end":1279.135,"text":"天然氣最暴增的時候是在就是上面那個2022到2023年可是你有發現嗎2023年就往下掉了現在2024嘛對不對2024右邊你看右邊這個圖跟左邊的2017年跟2018年現在國際天然氣的價格從去年2023年就開始掉了掉到現在"},{"start":1294.229,"end":1311.889,"text":"比2017年跟2018年還低是不是這樣所以剛剛跟委員報告四月之後臺電的盈餘狀況是有所改善的跟這個也有相關啊對啊我剛剛已經講過啦所以院長你這話很重要所以是應該電費應該降啊你怎麼反而往上飆呢"},{"start":1315.403,"end":1335.991,"text":"你的電費的原則第一個是反應成本第二個是照顧民生第二個是穩定物價再來是節能指引碳所以第一個要反應成本過去都沒有辦法反應成本因為原料也高各種都很高現在是盡量把它接近成本"},{"start":1336.491,"end":1362.265,"text":"一定是你跟大家說的從上一任的總統跟院長到你這一任的院長跟總統還有經濟部你們就跟我講為什麼虧損會那麼嚴重包括要漲電價你們的過電成本還是高的嘛所以我今天給你看啊你們一直講天然氣啊這個土清清楚楚了吧它已經掉下來了今年是改善的啊對所以它掉下來了今年是改善的但過去虧損太多院長所以改善了所以電價是不是往下降"},{"start":1365.629,"end":1389.301,"text":"你怎麼往上調過去虧損太多我們距離成本還是有距離的距離發電成本還是有距離的你已經過去3年撥補了3000億以上然後你已經漲了三次電價了你跟我講還撥不夠等一下市長你不要講你已經撥補那麼多漲了那麼多我再重複一次好不好3年撥補了3000億以上"},{"start":1391.843,"end":1401.852,"text":"三年漲價漲了30%以上那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例"},{"start":1411.701,"end":1436.615,"text":"還有民生用電一直是低於成本的所以政府也要穩定民生用電的成本計算不會漲太多的民生用電這個是已經存在多年的事實所以他的財務狀況一直不是很好尤其到了2022、2023整個燃料、能源上漲之後他的級距是加深的那今年我們在4月調漲之後以及現在這個能源的變化"},{"start":1437.435,"end":1465.175,"text":"今年度到4月之後它是有所改善的但過去的虧損仍然很多就是那兩個原因一個是穩定民生一個就是政策的撥補政策的這個政策支應那現在我們把政策這個回到各目的事業主管機關那我們在希望用最佳預算來填補現在的這個民生用電這樣我們期待一年兩年之後的台電呈現出來的可以現在經營狀況會有所不點那天郭部長在這裡"},{"start":1465.896,"end":1470.818,"text":"議員長我們台灣人民的出資是很高的我想從這個圖很清楚看出來就是前幾年政府一直在講因為天然氣暴增所以你的電費必須漲今天很清楚從這個圖看出來"},{"start":1490.305,"end":1509.165,"text":"拜託一下現在電費應該是考慮要往下降了不是再往上漲我們現在還跟發電成本還有距離為什麼你的發電成本應該是往下降阿你用天然氣用那麼多你以前漲電價發電成本高也是天然氣阿他降阿我們以氣換煤這個是政策所以問題"},{"start":1513.683,"end":1530.137,"text":"出在什麼地方?一定還有另外一個漏洞你沒有跟人民講嘛你有一個沒有跟人民講的真相嘛為什麼成本還在增加?天然氣明明也是這樣啊為什麼?這段時間出了什麼問題?現在核能的比例已經相當低了所以核能的成本並不能"},{"start":1537.662,"end":1552.413,"text":"降低太多的成本因為現在是要彌補過去的這個狀況過去的這個補貼政策現在台電的這個財務是不健全的那希望說能夠讓他財務健全兩年之後那天郭部長講了"},{"start":1553.174,"end":1581.015,"text":"他很勇敢的而且負責的講兩年之內要把台電的經營讓他能夠順暢能夠進入到一個正常的經營的狀態那我們應該給台電這樣努力的空間所以我們盡量把他的財務狀況調的比較健全一點不要負太多的政策的負擔責任院長你台電的財務怎麼樣才可以財務的健全很多方式他本來是金雞母我回到剛剛那張圖給大家看一下台電是一個金雞母回到上面那張圖"},{"start":1583.049,"end":1592.975,"text":"台電為什麼金雞母變成敗家子你在講他財務的問題你看喔2017年2018年的時候台電都還是金雞母都還是賺錢的2017年那時候台電賺多少錢118億2018年的時候還賺了35億到了今年你們累計要虧損多光是今年2024年不只沒有賺錢喔"},{"start":1610.848,"end":1625.518,"text":"要競損2124億為什麼這麼大的落差我也非常不能接受同樣天然氣現在天然氣已經比2017年跟18還低了那時候是賺錢的為什麼現在賠這麼多你在講財務問題在哪裡我們看下一張好不好問題在你剛講的你把核電廢掉之後"},{"start":1641.028,"end":1642.709,"text":"當然啦 核電你現場買很便宜售後服務就很貴阿"},{"start":1659.921,"end":1663.086,"text":"那也是人民的錢不是嗎那也是人民的錢啊"},{"start":1672.586,"end":1696.092,"text":"對阿 你的再生能源買很貴阿現在這兩個問題嘛 你現在講財務你現在出了問題沒有綠能 現在跟你講 先進產業需要用綠能你以前是賺錢的 現在賠錢 那你有去知道去看那個結構到底 能源結構出了什麼問題第一個就是因為你把核電停掉了嘛 因為你買了很多再生能源這兩個價格差很多 你有沒有跟人民講這個事情 而且你又跟真相沒有講 要跟全民去講清楚"},{"start":1698.353,"end":1698.493,"text":"議員長 讓我講完"},{"start":1715.728,"end":1716.929,"text":"院長你在會合的同時是不是要跟人民講"},{"start":1738.257,"end":1755.848,"text":"這幾年為什麼一直在漲電價一直在撥股就是因為核一已經沒有了核二已經沒有了核三的一號機已經被你停了明年二號機又要停這代價有多高你知道嗎人民到底要付多少錢你們跟人民解釋過跟人民講過這個事情"},{"start":1759.26,"end":1787.166,"text":"議員長你有去統計過這個嗎報告委員所謂的真相就是核電買很便宜啦比較便宜對他事後的售後服務非常的貴每一筆錢都是而且他的建設費用也很高這個都要算進去的現在核電已經佔的比例相當低了那你核一廠核二廠核三廠都建好了連核四廠都建好了不是嗎而且你講後端我們每一度店裡面就有核廢料的這個處理有核後端的基金啊市場外有擺在那"},{"start":1788.406,"end":1816.304,"text":"這也是人民的錢這也是人民的錢所以繼續的用就會繼續要處理核廢料你剛講的是有問題的院長來來來最關鍵我覺得人民最關心的啦不要實力要不要漲電價第二個你要跟人民講真相要講清楚因為你們廢核這是你們的薪酬班或者你們的意識形態嘛這個代價有多高一度電來看看這是從台電的官網抓下來的資料核電一度電的成本"},{"start":1820.067,"end":1841.114,"text":"1.13對不對 過便宜了吧你剛才講核二端處理基金4000多億也在那裡啦用火力發電一度要多少 2.98用再生能源5.39你這段時間你剛講那個為什麼一直在拿錢 拿漲人民的電價一直在撥補就是因為核一停了 核二停了 核三的一號機停了"},{"start":1852.233,"end":1852.994,"text":"好 謝謝時間到了 請開會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-1","title":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:00:47 - 09:31:50","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）","id":"154864"}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}