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謝謝主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀致大院交通委員會就行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益的警力配置"},{"start":2137.239,"end":2165.928,"text":"以及雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫以及台鐵公司化執行情況講序規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃進行專題報告。非常感謝。在行人交通安全改善以及成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置的部分"},{"start":2167.165,"end":2174.35,"text":"就整體以及行人交通事故傷亡的數字報告並且說明相關的改善重點。"},{"start":2175.629,"end":2198,"text":"以及相關法規在工程、執法、監理、管考、資訊揭露等面向闡述各項道安精進的作為,全面提升行人交通安全。就雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫的部分今年 的雙十國慶假期為10月10日"},{"start":2204.526,"end":2226.94,"text":"屬於單一的假期日期但是考量到本次的雙十節與週六日中間只隔了一天的上班日有許多的民眾可能會在禮拜五請假讓這個假期成為連假所以本部所屬的相關運輸單位均以四天連假的模式做完整的輸運規劃"},{"start":2228.749,"end":2245.815,"text":"高速公路已經擬定各項管制措施並且提供民眾即時路況以及旅行時間的查詢數據高鐵、台鐵以及國道客運等公共運輸也已經準備充足的量能並且視狀況機動加開班次各輸運單位"},{"start":2250.616,"end":2264.487,"text":"並已經成立輸運應變中心也就是應變小組隨時來應變另外也針對花東地區可能受到天候影響的情況做好橫向的聯繫隨時啟動應變的規劃。就台鐵公司化執行的情況講序規範即歸軌道月台旅客安全規劃的部分"},{"start":2275.331,"end":2294.864,"text":"國營台灣鐵路股份有限公司在民國113年的1月1號已經完成了公司登記許可正式成立。第一屆的董事會到現在已經召開了8次的會議。董事會也已經有安全管理委員會、協助健全、安全監督功能以及強化董事會的職能。"},{"start":2296.257,"end":2317.308,"text":"台鐵公司化之後今年截至8月的客運人數平均為64萬人較過去同期增加了10.52%日平均客運收入有4723萬也較去年的同期增加了4.89%至於8月份的客運收入"},{"start":2319.332,"end":2342.615,"text":"至8月份的客運收入有115.24億較去年同期增加了5.82億元相關軌道旅客安全的防護部分因為台鐵的車型比較多月台門必須適用所有的車型的車門位置所以台鐵公司將會先在高雄站試辦目前的招標作業預計在今年底"},{"start":2343.462,"end":2370.621,"text":"以前完成一組示範機的發包一百一十四年的六月會完成全功能的測試至於台鐵公司的獎序規範台鐵公司董事長以及總經理的獎懲為交通部核定的事項依台鐵公司設置條例來規定必須送台鐵公司董事會來審議再依程序報交通部核定以下"},{"start":2372.042,"end":2395.927,"text":"分別請本部陸政及道安司黃司長就行人交通安全改善公共運輸及監理司林司長就雙十假期輸運計畫以及台鐵公司杜董事長就台鐵公司化執行狀況等內容向各位委員報告。敬請各位委員指教。謝謝。那我們是不是請市長?"},{"start":2409.195,"end":2426.687,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天應邀至貴委會就《行人交通安全改善成效及道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置》進行專題報告請說明如後進行各位委員指教"},{"start":2427.367,"end":2442.017,"text":"那接下來就行人交通安全改善的成效進行說明今年一至六月的30死亡人數整體死亡人數累計是1428人較去年同期減少了141人降伏是達9%那行人死亡人數累計為183人較去年同期增加了10人"},{"start":2455.146,"end":2474.941,"text":"為了改善道路安全,我們各單位都落實推動各項道安改善工作接下來就是接續針對各項工作跟各委員做報告首先是完善道安政策、計畫及法規今年1月1日已經施行道路交通安全基本法"},{"start":2475.521,"end":2493.975,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":2497.418,"end":2516.242,"text":"是內政部要積極地訂定行人交通安全設施條例的施行細則,那依據是在今年10月1日會來施行。此外,交通部也在今年7月22日已經會前內政部發布了道路交通標誌標線號誌設施規則部分條文,未來會陸續配合滾動式檢討修正。"},{"start":2522.003,"end":2539.706,"text":"那依據在今年11月的下旬我們交通部的運輸研究所會完成道路交通號誌標誌設計規則參考指引那此外在年底公路局也會完成整體道路規劃指引的初稿那此外部裡面也會定期召開"},{"start":2540.607,"end":2544.371,"text":"公路道路設計相關技術標準檢討的精進會議來滾動檢討,針對公路路線設計規範跟交通工程規範等技術規範進行檢討的工作,未來會進行整個規範的通盤檢討。"},{"start":2558.303,"end":2581.851,"text":"在積極辦理工程改善部分目前交通部跟內政部正在積極推動4年400億的永續提升人行安全的計畫那其中有799處的入口改善預計是在今年9月底前會完成400處年底預計要全數完成那截至今年的8月25號各縣市已經完成了199處那公務級已經完成了55處總共是245處"},{"start":2587.833,"end":2605.948,"text":"在校園周邊改善部分年底一級完成200校那目前已經完成了44校至於省道路口安全的部分公務局在今年9月底前會完成500處在年底前會完成2000處截至8月25號已經完成了615處其內專用10項跟早開10項截至今年8月25號全國已經有5130處"},{"start":2616.596,"end":2634.938,"text":"那行人穿越到退縮部分截至8月25號時全國已經完成了1959處此外我們也會強化資訊的揭露那今年6月24號我們已經就道安總動員的平台正式上線為了提升整個"},{"start":2635.819,"end":2648.429,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":2657.737,"end":2683.191,"text":"的建議在監理作為部分首先是落實大客車的管理措施相關單位會持續辦理公路客運的安全考核會與勞動部協商提高機查的加速針對客運業部分也將入口停讓納入評鑑的指標並透過入口機查確認未落實的止差業者持續督導改善"},{"start":2685.092,"end":2690.797,"text":"對於未來停讓行人的業者將處罰擴減營運的虧損補貼款此外,入口停讓納入評鑑項目評鑑成績將影響路線細雲的年限跟全年補助款的折減"},{"start":2701.768,"end":2718.443,"text":"此外,公路局對九大運輸業者已要求行進入口左右轉,無論有無看見行人,均請駕駛人暫停確認,且將該違規列為優先裁罰的項目之一。另外,未停讓行人依規定應納入講習訓練導正行為。"},{"start":2721.986,"end":2748.536,"text":"在擴大機車駕訓部分一、一、三年期沿駕訓補助是四萬名我們將擴大辦理每名一千三百元另外道路安駕訓練沿補助是兩千兩百位我們也將擴大辦理每名補助是一千兩百元經統計駕訓者、教衛參加者保育的風險是降了百分之五十九"},{"start":2749.096,"end":2755.96,"text":"那事故風險是降低了36%若同時有參加駕訓跟道路安駕訓練的話其違規風險更是降低到64%事故風險降低了51%"},{"start":2764.329,"end":2785.657,"text":"另外我們可以加強執法能量建議就是因為我們現在行人事故噪音主要是因為車輛未依規定停讓行人先行以及行人未依規定穿越道路而執法既有立即嚇阻作用那建制科技執法有助於降低事故的傷亡"},{"start":2786.357,"end":2801.66,"text":"那中央輔助警政單位多功能的科技執法設備目前有345處已陸續完工在明年的1月1號起會前面加入輔助執法的行列強化警察的執法能量"},{"start":2802.361,"end":2809.186,"text":"最後是強化管考作為我們今年有8月16號有針對1到7月24小時的死亡事故的做統計針對這個部分如果說相關縣市較去年同期"},{"start":2819.713,"end":2845.346,"text":"未減少的話,我們已經有行文給該縣市的相關單位跟首長希望能夠來重視這項工作,後期將持續定期檢討我們也會在我們每縣市的道安聯席匯報會將這些成效不佳的縣市請他們提供做說明如果連續三個月以上較去年同期增加且有呈現上升趨勢的縣市"},{"start":2846.246,"end":2873.226,"text":"要求到中央大安匯報進行專案報告。未來,交通部會就工程、教育、監理跟執法等四大面向來推動國家的道路交通安全綱要計畫,並促請相關部會嚴體計舉對策,結合跨部會及各縣市力量全力投入,以有效提升道路安全成效。交通部對於行人交通安全改善成效報告,敬請各位委員指教。謝謝。"},{"start":2886.358,"end":2902.628,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先生女士今天應邀到委員會就雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備及海陸空疏運計畫進行報告今年雙十連假10月10號是禮拜四屬單一天假日"},{"start":2904.248,"end":2926.049,"text":"與週六日緊隔一天上班日放假類型跟這一次的中秋節差不多部分民眾可能會在週五請假所以交通部所屬的相關運輸單位已經省慎因應車潮與人潮均以四天連續假期預作輸運規劃這一次的輸運規劃主要是以強化公路交通疏導維護行車安全及提升運輸"},{"start":2928.328,"end":2940.901,"text":"提升大眾輸運量能作為主要規劃的一個原則在高速公路部分除擬定各項管制措施外將加強提供國道即時路況資訊、旅行時間預測及替代"},{"start":2943.604,"end":2970.271,"text":"道路行駛時間比較讓民眾有充分明確資訊事先規劃行程也儘量避開尖峰用路的一個時段在大眾運輸部分高鐵主要是以服務西部長途為主台鐵以服務東部及西部中短途離島部分則是以航空為主海運為輔那國道客運的部分針對主要輸運路線增開半次"},{"start":2971.462,"end":2991.729,"text":"那在觀光遊樂地區部分那觀光署也會協調在地相關單位規劃區域性及路段性的疏導作業那整個疏運在高速公路交通疏導管制措施部分預估假期期間交通量會較一般假日平均為高大概會落在102到110百萬車公里"},{"start":2994.91,"end":3022.223,"text":"那整個相關的措施有包括實施高層窄管制、單一廢綠、入口閘道移控、開放路線及暫停施工等主要措施那在高層窄管制的部分主要是會在10月13號也就是週日在針對國五的蘇澳、羅東、宜蘭、投誠等交通道的北向入口閘道在下午3點到晚上"},{"start":3023.203,"end":3034.648,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":3043.092,"end":3069.368,"text":"那其他包括這個路口閘道移控還有開放這個路線的部分的話那這個高雄局都按照這個原來的規定還有程序來做辦理但是會因應這個地區性的一個車流在做滾動的檢討那在重要省道交通的部分公路局預估這一次蘇花公路、南迴公路及台61線西濱快速公路等重點路段交通狀況"},{"start":3070.268,"end":3084.856,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。六、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":3099.994,"end":3116.17,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。六、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":3125,"end":3136.428,"text":"每日平均運能預估增加2.6%但主要增加的部分會在東線跟這個南迴這個花東線的部分增加4.1%南迴線增加6%單日這個疏運的運能提供可疏運70.7萬"},{"start":3144.053,"end":3158.345,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":3165.811,"end":3176.954,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。六、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":3187.316,"end":3200.479,"text":"提供將近11萬個座位那重點金馬澎離島的航線總共有1156架次有總共有這個83994個這個座位那另外也會因應這個天候的狀況備妥疏運的ABC的一個計畫"},{"start":3208.53,"end":3225.056,"text":"那在觀光署的部分主要重點就是已經將各地的這個呃旅宿訂房率提供給相關疏運單位來做參考那另外他所屬的這個臺灣好行跟臺灣關巴的部分在假期期間都有相當的一個這個優惠那因應這個書啊"},{"start":3226.477,"end":3243.574,"text":"路廊可能受天候影響的一個部分那這個部分我們公務局跟這個航港局還有民航局的部分這邊都已經做好這個應變航班的一個這個調度那另外一個部分的話也會這個引導民眾往南走那"},{"start":3244.255,"end":3261.161,"text":"三、台鐵公司也會加開京南迴線列車並協調高鐵公司加開至左營站北上班次來協助接駁輸運。本次國慶假期雖然非連假,但相關輸運單位都以四天連續假期來做規劃輸運的工作,已經做好運營籌措,也會落實各項養護巡查的工作。"},{"start":3269.324,"end":3296.432,"text":"也會特別關注假期期間天候的狀況因應各種突發的一個這個情況那務必在交通部及所屬相關的疏運單位務必會讓民眾在假期期間能夠順利平安返鄉及出遊以上報告 敬請各位委員指教好 謝謝林市長杜董事長能不能把你那個報告精華版精華一下好不好因為這個不要第一個字念到最後一個字謝謝"},{"start":3299.474,"end":3309.853,"text":"現在由臺鐵公司就臺鐵公司化執行情形、講序規範及軌道月台旅客安全規劃進行專題報告。敬請各位委員指教。"},{"start":3311.004,"end":3331.367,"text":"一、台鐵公司治理運作在公司的設置方面我們公司在111年6月22日依據這個我們設置條例明令公布以後我們就積極來辦理公司成立的事宜那往下呢一、公司設置條例的規定執法15項"},{"start":3332.728,"end":3347.436,"text":"已經有12項奉核訂來發布在這個底下在有公司已經制定完成353項的營運規章及44項人事規章這個均已發布實施在公司治理方面"},{"start":3348.897,"end":3372.587,"text":"首先我們這個公司依公司法跟設置條例的規定成立了董事會第一屆董事會已經召開了八次會議完成了許多的報告以及討論案交由公司的經理部門來照案執行另外在董事會還設有安全管理委員會及資產開發委員會等功能性的委員會組織來強化董事會的一個運作"},{"start":3377.309,"end":3382.814,"text":"至於經理部門也依據第一階段公司的組織調整推動公司轉型經營目前運作平順順利"},{"start":3390.017,"end":3414.709,"text":"在經營績效方面營運時機我們今年在客運我們比較去年同期我們客運量增加了10.52%那我們的客運的營收增加了4.89%那貨運因為受到風災的影響是有一些下降但是我們今年到8月的貨運頓速仍然有"},{"start":3416.59,"end":3420.404,"text":"八十九點三萬噸那麼我們的收入來到3.05億元"},{"start":3422.472,"end":3442.501,"text":"列車準點率方面今年累計到8月的整體準點率是93.01這個不諱言主要也是因為風災、震災以及路線中斷等等的影響但扣除不可抗力因素以後我們的準點率還是維持在97.10我們會持續檢討來提高列車準點率跟旅運服務的品質"},{"start":3450.385,"end":3458.087,"text":"在副業營運方面今年我們在便當的銷量較去年成長6.55%營收有來到5.25元較去年增加0.68億元所以營收的部分成長14.83%"},{"start":3474.272,"end":3501.846,"text":"那商品的部分呢今年累計到8月我們商品營收是0.39億元那較去年呢也有增加成長率是14.83%那特別是今年我們是公司首次辦理便當節的活動那這個不論是規模還是來參與的人數還有我們本身的營收都創歷年的新高這個就請各位參閱"},{"start":3503.487,"end":3520.332,"text":"四、資產開發目前台鐵公司已經招商成功的案件像是臺北雙子興開發案、南港吊車場都更案、南港商山特公辦都更案等案件預計在117年到119年就可以陸續完成"},{"start":3526.494,"end":3546.391,"text":"這個權力變換利益大約是346.91億元預計今年後半年、下半年我們還會推出臺北市安東街的土地開發案而且我們會積極的辦理鳳山車站、高雄車站、園林車站、屏東車站等地區的招商以及開發"},{"start":3547.532,"end":3568.592,"text":"那這個資產開發的效益跟我們的時機也請各位參閱在強化服務的部分台鐵公司在今年我們已經把我們新式的EMU3000型的乘機列車還有EMU900型的區間列車我們全數都已經投入營運了"},{"start":3569.813,"end":3587.353,"text":"所以整體自強號的運能較還沒有投入之前提升了40%其中東部更提升了54%在整體區間車的運能提升也有35%其中北部地區有提升到25%之多"},{"start":3589.996,"end":3616.294,"text":"提升旅運服務的其他項目包括精進票務措施、便民、推出電子定期票還有我們有推出這個常客回饋方案還有我們432台的自動售票機全部完成太舊換新增加了863台自動驗票機的這個讀卡機那持續優化等等的措施呢這個我們會繼續來加強來推動"},{"start":3620.216,"end":3647.535,"text":"提升行車安全的部分我們持續落實這個安全管理系統的SMS那目前危害登記冊的登錄的部分我們算是齊全那一共有285項1502項的這個因子的分析而且已經針對各個因子我們都有一個改進跟這個預防的一個"},{"start":3648.895,"end":3676.041,"text":"規劃正在執行另外要加強我們SMS安全管理我們在去年底我們已經完成了SMIS的我們的安全管理的資訊系統目前已經上線在運作了我們預計在今年跟明年很重要是我們要優化這個系統的功能然後而且我們會建置集合模組讓這個系統可以大力的發揮"},{"start":3678.744,"end":3702.79,"text":"在軌道月台旅客安全防護的部分那台鐵公司在今年一到八月一共有十件月台跳下也就是這個是應該是含有這個蓄意的成分這個跳下那有十二件是侵入這個我們的路線就是在車站月台以外的地點有十二件侵入路線"},{"start":3703.37,"end":3710.638,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":3722.892,"end":3738.923,"text":"我們公司會持續進行各項改善措施剛剛講到的侵入路線的事件我們已經有規劃在今年跟明年我們會加設我們路線旁的維理而且會加強我們行車運轉的注意"},{"start":3742.585,"end":3763.619,"text":"這個一共會增加到61.5公里範圍讓民眾不要闖入另外我們正在研議建置月台門月台門的話因為我們車種比較多所以月台門要適用所有車種的停車位置必須要進行一個試辦跟設計現在試辦的招標作業預計會在10月底完成"},{"start":3771.404,"end":3792.513,"text":"完成以後我們在年底我們會裝設一組我們的展示機架那在明年6月我們會來進行全功能的一個測試來決定後續我們月台門的推動增加員工福利跟獎勵的部分包括我們公司提撥給職服會23億的職工福利獎勵第七頁"},{"start":3799.756,"end":3808.393,"text":"差不多了吧快了吧你沒有精華版你看都不看我們議員就一直唸啊精華版精華版這個結論是是是"},{"start":3812.743,"end":3836.92,"text":"另外就是辦理員工福利措施提高全體員工的三節禮金等等這個部分也請各位來參閱我們公司有一個確保安全提升服務永續經營及幸福企業的策略目標我們寄望未來打造黃金十年我們有創造"},{"start":3837.5,"end":3851.6,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。六、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":3853.154,"end":3881.546,"text":"接下來第8頁的第二大部分就是台鐵公司的獎序規範那台鐵公司續獎案是依據交通事業鐵路人員獎懲標準表的規定來辦理那在公司內所有的獎懲案件都需要經過考成委員會的一個審議而且考成委員會裡面是有票選委員的可以維持審議的一個公正性"},{"start":3883.127,"end":3897.336,"text":"至於董事長跟總經理的續講規範,基於公司治理,必須先提到董事會來審議,如果審議通過了,再依規定來呈報交通部合訂,才可以實施辦理。"},{"start":3898.357,"end":3918.77,"text":"那台北公司現在以確保營運安全提升準點力跟旅運服務品質為我們最優先的推動事項那長期來講的話推動公司EA-10G的永續經營就是我們的最大的目標那以上報告敬請各位委員支持指教謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":3923.561,"end":3949.586,"text":"那接下來我們因為剛剛那個在場委員我們針對於上次會的議事錄有沒有意見沒有意見我們議事錄確定那接下來那次長、次長、董事長你代表內政部來齁因為警政署的見警率啊怎麼如何配合提升啊然後這個國土署你們有什麼想法要報告吧"},{"start":3951.482,"end":3952.972,"text":"就只有三分鐘嗎?好,謝謝"},{"start":3961.674,"end":3985.422,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生,非常感謝委員會邀請本部來就今天所審議的行人交通安全改善及道路見警率等等相關的兩岸的一個說明。本部目前主要針對行人交通安全有兩個主要的職責,一個是國土署在工程方面所負責的永續提升行人安全計畫,跟警政署負責的執行的部分。"},{"start":3985.922,"end":4002.555,"text":"那麼在國土署關於工程部分我們從113年到146年投入400億的經費在這個計畫裡面本部有260億那針對入口的交通安全改善那整個道路人行道的改善跟校園周邊環境的改善等等我們做了有六大方案"},{"start":4003.075,"end":4015.219,"text":"希望透過這六大方案我們已經合訂了243案總共有45億的資金的合訂在行人肇事入口這邊我們有799處的肇事入口其中我們到今年為止已經完成了294處後續會在今年年底將所有合訂的601處都完成"},{"start":4025.282,"end":4048.085,"text":"那特別是我們也特別提出了全民參與街道改善平台計畫那麼已經透過全民的投票參與選出8條優先改善的路段我們希望透過這8條優先改善的路段跟民眾一起共同討論那促進整個環境的永續改善那道安條例也經過審慮之後在9月25號完成會議前我們10月1號開始實施"},{"start":4049.506,"end":4071.513,"text":"國土署將會透過永續人行安全提升計畫還有行人交通安全設施條例的規定去追蹤地方政府整個相關的交通改善希望提升用路人的安全品質那在執法的部分警政署透過加強執法的部分包括入口不停讓行人非號誌化入口的未停車再開以及人行道規範違規停車等等相關的取締那麼已經取締了64萬多件"},{"start":4076.535,"end":4094.924,"text":"路口的科技執法也以不停讓行人以及闖紅燈為主取締了大概有60萬件左右見警率基本上我們認為最重要的還是要加強守法的觀念道路的安全等等我們希望透過科技執法的方式來輔助我們警察跟本部的相關執行"},{"start":4097.065,"end":4107.473,"text":"那這些執行其實都已經具有很大的成效了包括我們的那個同期發生的事件減少了1000多件死亡案件也減少12%受傷案件減少20幾%這些都很明確的看到科技執法對於我們相關的請教那麼我們未來會配合科技執法"},{"start":4114.438,"end":4130.277,"text":"還有相關的道路入口的修正我們希望能夠協助整個人停環境特別是交通平權的建立那也懇請所有委員會能夠支持我們道安的預算大概48億多科技執法預算大概5億多請請大院繼續支持感謝謝謝好謝謝次長的報告"},{"start":4136.308,"end":4161.809,"text":"好那我先簡單說明一下啦因為我知道今天很多委員會沒有開會那很多人在問說為什麼交通委員會要開會啦那當然因為今天因為交通委員會尤其交通部長是在我們休會之後大概各部會是唯一新到任的部長那所以我們覺得因為過去已經很多的部長新上任之後有一個半月不管是在各委員會跟總諮詢"},{"start":4162.91,"end":4165.954,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就"},{"start":4179.451,"end":4198.268,"text":"非常特別的一天是你擔任這個中央首長的第一天我也聽到你說你要用心學習來自各地立法委員他帶來訊息希望您能夠把能夠盡量協助跟接受那我們現在就進行詢答先宣告以下事項"},{"start":4199.309,"end":4218.341,"text":"第一,尋答時間,初期委員8加2分鐘,列席委員6分鐘。第二,委員發言登記於10點30分截止,本委員會委員除外。第三,各委員如有臨時提案,取應10點前提出,以便議事人員會診。"},{"start":4221.094,"end":4228.797,"text":"暫定10點30分休息10分鐘。五、中午原則上不休息。現在我們就請登記第一位的蔡奇昌委員發言。謝謝主席。請陳部長。陳部長。"},{"start":4253.297,"end":4265.65,"text":"部長早委員早時間過得很快二十年前我們一起在立法院打拼那二十年後你現在已經高升為交通部的部長"},{"start":4267.03,"end":4289.071,"text":"我聽到這個消息一方面為你感到高興因為我相信這是20年來你自己的努力得到賴總統然後這個卓院長的這個賞賜肯定所以才會指派這個任務給你那第二個我也感到為你感到一絲的沉重這個交通部加大越大"},{"start":4290.083,"end":4305.168,"text":"要當部長不容易啦這個所管轄的範圍太廣你想陸海空到觀光然後各式各樣交通部下屬所有的事業單位所以一個部長要能夠全懂不容易"},{"start":4306.109,"end":4331.786,"text":"你上任之後我也看到一些媒體的朋友或者在野黨對你有一些挑戰包括說你是不是交通的專業我在交通委員會算資深了在立法院也差不多將近20年了在我看法交通部基本上所謂的專不專業他第一個問題大家問的應該是說是不是交通本科"},{"start":4333.39,"end":4348.177,"text":"那交通部部長大概我算了一下應該接近有一半任期都不是在交通本科的部長底下在主政但是交通的專業其實跟本科不一定"},{"start":4351.159,"end":4369.045,"text":"我講這個話不是要鼓勵你或者替你講話而是我要告訴你說交通部長在我的這麼多年的任內看交通部長要做好要被大家肯定叫做專業我統結八個字叫做謙卑傾聽認真做事交通部部長範圍太廣了"},{"start":4373.604,"end":4378.917,"text":"有沒有認真傾聽因為你的業務太廣你一個人無法每一樣你都很了解"},{"start":4379.724,"end":4406.909,"text":"我請教部長你上任之後所有業務單位你都請他們來跟你做過這個簡報了嗎?報告員所有的業務單位都跟我做過簡報那我也很積極的在跟各個業務單位在做溝通那除此之外我也做行動的管理也就是說到各個地方到各局處去該看的部分其實我們也都看了那一些工會我們也都接觸過也都理解說所有所屬單位的工會的心聲OK"},{"start":4407.629,"end":4421.609,"text":"這個叫做內部傾聽每一個部會這些文官都是從基層一路上來他們有他們的專業所以做部長一定要了解每一個業務單位這些文官去尊重他們、傾聽他們專業的意見"},{"start":4423.792,"end":4443.463,"text":"二、你拜訪過立法院所有交通委員會的委員沒有?報告委員每一位委員我都拜訪過了有一些非交通委員會的我也拜訪過了那你知道交通委員的委員基本上都是立法院相對比較資深的委員是,我曉得他們都對交通的領域有一定程度的認識跟專業?是我考你一下好了"},{"start":4445.219,"end":4469.391,"text":"在鐵道建設裡面本席對台中有三樣我已經講過非常多年了你覺得是哪三個哪三項台中的捷運橘線以及台中的捷運藍線那還有一條就是當時我在擔任議員的時候跟委員一起在努力的台中的這個台鐵海線的雙軌高架化好那主席魯明哲委員他最重視交通建設是什麼"},{"start":4469.991,"end":4470.091,"text":"主席,對嗎?對,好,謝謝。"},{"start":4493.171,"end":4519.65,"text":"因為我不知道你我沒有太關注你關心什麼但我的部分是對啦所以我也請教一下看你的部分對不對好這個就是做一個部長要傾聽立法院對的事情不論他什麼顏色啦該做的事情因為交通建設沒有顏色嘛該做的事情就是要去做而每一個委員在他的轄區的這個領域當中他一定對一些特別事項你要去關心第三個要傾聽民意啦"},{"start":4520.715,"end":4539.552,"text":"這個未來會有很多的交通建設跟交通政策的提出他會跟人民直接相關如果交通部沒有認真去傾聽民意這個部長得不到民眾的支持所以這個叫做認真傾聽接下來你就要做事啦就你傾聽完之後你就要做事"},{"start":4540.493,"end":4567.93,"text":"重大的交通建設進度到哪裡該怎麼進行我想這些就是部長你要帶領著所有交通部的團隊去做的這個是我給你的我看到你沉重壓力我給你八個字的祝福啦我希望這八個字能夠讓你當一個專業的部長那考驗才剛開始啦考驗才剛開始接下來呢我想這個我要來問一下部長我想你也知道"},{"start":4569.136,"end":4595.739,"text":"對於這個行人地域本席長期以來都一直非常關心這個惡名何時可以移除最近台中又發生了一個東海大學的女同學這麼青春年華的歲月走在斑馬線上面竟然被公車唸壁我看了她的媽媽的一些發言包括昨天的這個講話我其實非常的難過"},{"start":4597.298,"end":4616.153,"text":"而且這個剛好也是我東海大學的學妹媽媽說希望不要這個她的犧牲她女兒的犧牲能夠是有意義的那媽媽有大愛說實在話我覺得很感動但是我們站在立法委員監督的立場"},{"start":4617.659,"end":4630.684,"text":"本席還是必須要把我的一些看法跟我們目前的一些作為我們還是要做一些檢討而這個檢討一定要針對原因針對一些數據本席列了幾個你看看這個你看看這個數據本席在今年五月我就講過台中市"},{"start":4642.682,"end":4668.662,"text":"是傷亡啊這個相對於其他縣市來講我們算是最嚴重的啦特別在直轄市裡面你看齁各縣市113年1到6月30日到6月之前啊你看台中市啊是28人死亡人數比較去年同期還增加了7人下一頁"},{"start":4672.047,"end":4698.373,"text":"這個我們交通部跟內政部跟地方政府來合作要盤點這個所謂優先改善的路口這個包括內政部本席也提了這個內政部也編了預算這個中央重視嘛所以也編了預算來改善這些危險路口但這些路口要跟地方政府來配合但是你看看這個中央編了錢也有了政策希望來把這個行人地域解決啦"},{"start":4699.853,"end":4717.379,"text":"但是你看臺中市政府這個63處只改了4處啦這個進度實在是緩慢而且比起其他縣市你看我們這個落後那麼多臺中市到8月僅改善4處是直轄市最低的啦好來下一頁"},{"start":4719.67,"end":4747.239,"text":"那你再來看看這個以10萬人死傷人數來統計你看這個台中市3405這個也是難看的數字所以本席在上一次就是在今年5月的質詢的時候我就講了當時的李部長跟交通部的同仁告訴本席說會督促台中市政府請台中市政府提出檢討報告來讓我們看一下檢討報告是什麼"},{"start":4752.305,"end":4778.152,"text":"二、檢討報告叫用路人普遍不守法用路人普遍不守法也就是行人的問題不是市政府改善這些問題再來人口數持續成長機動車輛持續增加所以基本上我們這個市政府是放牛般的市政府這樣的一個狀況所以再發生了"},{"start":4780.031,"end":4808.411,"text":"這一次的這個不幸事件就讓本席覺得交通部對於放牛班的學生不能只是上一次本席還拜託你們說多多幫忙台中市政府多多協助台中市政府讓放牛班的學生可不可以好一點但是我看光鼓勵支持幫助這個是不夠的台中市還是一樣依然顧我所以我們台中市市民行的安全"},{"start":4809.571,"end":4824.659,"text":"像這些學童走斑馬線還遇到這樣的問題表示這個放牛班的學生不受教部長除了協助去年除了今年5月我講的協助幫助之外"},{"start":4825.97,"end":4842.345,"text":"交通部是不是對於不只台中市,當然台中最嚴重其他相對改善慢、置之不理對於用路行人安全的投入資源過少關注度過少的這些縣市政府要不要採取一些比較"},{"start":4845.35,"end":4859.746,"text":"強硬一點的手段或者有一點處分型的手段不然放留班的孩子整天放在宿治那裡本席叫你們去問你們問回來還是這些都是別人的問題都跟市政府沒有任何改善作為"},{"start":4861.392,"end":4888.627,"text":"報告委員一方面我們當然會主動協助像您所交代的我們會主動協助台中市政府在交通安全上面的改善的部分那二方面針對成績比較不好的一些縣市一方面我們在這個網路上我們會公布這個數字讓縣市政府有壓力那二方面其實我們行政院也有一個道安工作會報那我們會請他們來做專案報告那昨天確實台中市政府已經來行政院做過專案報告了"},{"start":4889.127,"end":4915.576,"text":"也就是在匯報的過程要說明說他們到底未來要怎麼樣改善台中市的交通那這個部分管考的部分我們會繼續嚴格來督促都是活生生的人命特別像這種十幾歲、二十歲的孩子遇到這種不幸我相信這個不分朝野不分政黨大家其實都很難過所以我們能夠做的是怎麼在政策督促要求政府的角色是什麼"},{"start":4916.872,"end":4936.744,"text":"政府的角色怎麼去要求民間這些客運公司怎麼營造一個安全的環境其實這個都是我們責無旁貸的事情一起加油啦謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝蔡其昌委員接下來有請李崑哲委員發言"},{"start":4946.359,"end":4953.246,"text":"謝謝召委,請一下陳部長還有杜董事長、高鐵江董事長、陳文瑞局長陳局長"},{"start":4959.396,"end":4981.312,"text":"部長以及杜董事長我想不管是部長或者是台鐵最重要的責任跟工作就是保障旅客的安全現在台鐵我們來看2023年的時候日均量每一天平均搭乘的人數大概是60萬左右那到今年2024年1月到9月他的"},{"start":4984.734,"end":4996.389,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":5003.806,"end":5014.579,"text":"今年2024年意外落軌已經到達25件那蓄意跳下月台的這種不幸的事件2023年有17件那2024年有10件杜董事長應該記得在2022年11月30號交通委員會"},{"start":5022.509,"end":5032.197,"text":"我針對越台的這樣一個跌落的事件特別提出質詢並要求台鐵嚴厲來設置越台門這樣的一個狀況那相關的這樣的一個設計規劃台鐵也在著實的進行那在2024年的3月我們也"},{"start":5044.54,"end":5064.399,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":5066.618,"end":5075.596,"text":"不僅是關乎旅客的安全也彰顯我們道路交通公共服務的一個基本的責任跟要求杜董事長來簡單說明一下"},{"start":5080.274,"end":5097.339,"text":"是跟委員報告那這個設置月台門這個案子我們有積極照期程在推動那預計在高雄市辦的這一組月台門我們預計是在年底要完成一個展示的框架"},{"start":5097.699,"end":5114.432,"text":"杜董事長這個稍微有延誤我們3月的時候就說公開設計以及要做發包但是到9月的時候才要正式的公開的一個招標那其實就有延誤了到年底能否完成設置以及相關的測試呢"},{"start":5115.741,"end":5141.621,"text":"這跟委員報告的確因為中間有大不多延誤兩個月左右的期程那是因為招標公告需要徵詢廠商進行修正但是後面的進度我們預計在10月底以前我們決標以後我們會協調廠商盡速的來加緊進行那就是以高雄來當初跟你所討論的就是以高雄來先做一個設置跟測試"},{"start":5143.342,"end":5159.143,"text":"那我們月台設置其實有三大問題我們第一個就是說施工期間旅客的安全以及相關運輸的安排那我們施作的天數跟施作的這樣的一個時段必須要做規劃來 董事長簡單說明一下"},{"start":5161.266,"end":5182.279,"text":"是,這個因為月台門他設置的地點是還在營運的地區對,因為你施工的話他相關月台的這樣一個範圍會更為縮小是那所以施工的天數跟施工的時段不是很重要的是,所以剛剛委員講的我們施工的這個天數跟施工的時段我們會聖密的去規劃"},{"start":5183.14,"end":5206.363,"text":"那基本上有一些工作是可以在白天進行但是有某些工作他必須在這個夜間封鎖這個車輛以後再來進行這個必須要更明確的規劃出來另外我們越台越台門的這樣一個設置的優先次序杜董事長你也知道我們台鐵有分特等站、一等站"},{"start":5206.883,"end":5220.07,"text":"二等站、三等站、檢疫站、招呼站當然不會說都要去做設置我們還是依照旅客的運量來做相關的一個規劃那現在高雄要先做那我們"},{"start":5221.075,"end":5246.965,"text":"旅客每天搭乘人數最多的像台北、像板橋、像桃園你的優先順序是怎樣來簡單說明一下各位委員報告這個優先順序當然我們是看那個現場我們月台情形跟人流做主要的依據但是因為我們另外還有一個月台提高工程這個也要綜合考量對那相關的技術問題你也必須要去考量我們"},{"start":5247.745,"end":5266.918,"text":"有很多的月台它是曲型的彎曲型的一個月台或是也有高低不一的這樣一個月台那我們相關的規劃是如何你現在到底除了高雄要先做這樣一個測試跟裝置月台們之外你其他的車站有相關的規劃嗎現在正在規劃"},{"start":5269.659,"end":5290.882,"text":"政策規劃是什麼就是要看哪一些車站他是有比較需要有沒有基本的概念或規劃出來目前還沒有那必須要加緊相關的作業我提醒你像台北板橋、桃園它的每天搭乘人數都非常的多相關的安全必須要去注意"},{"start":5291.943,"end":5303.937,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":5313.027,"end":5322.853,"text":"那相關的這些因為他們的系統的測試以及司機員的訓練這都必須要納入計畫了我現在請教一下江董事長"},{"start":5325.427,"end":5350.622,"text":"姜董事長我們的高鐵其實這樣一個落軌的事件其實也多啦好像在九月的時候今年九月在日前也有旅客來向我陳請他因為跌落月台他認為是燈光的一個問題啦那台鐵第一時間來跟我們聯繫要跟家屬來對話來瞭解相關的狀況"},{"start":5353.504,"end":5359.015,"text":"那我們台鐵我們高鐵的跌落事件2021年是有8件"},{"start":5361.089,"end":5386.677,"text":"那2022年是10件2023年16件那2024年到8月總共15件那這個旅客有8件物品有7件因為高鐵有分這個旅客的跌落或是物件的這樣一個掉落的狀況那台鐵在目前是沒有做物品掉落這樣的一個統計這個也要去做統計好不好杜董事長這個要去做規劃"},{"start":5387.657,"end":5398.626,"text":"那我們現在9月3號的時候啊這個江董事長在過去我也跟你討論過相關越台門的這樣的一個狀況那"},{"start":5401.328,"end":5415.159,"text":"高鐵相當有計畫在9月3號就已經表示為了提升後車安全跟營運的效率要全線11個站都要去施作相關的月台門的這樣的一個計畫來讓你簡單說明一下"},{"start":5418.59,"end":5427.474,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":5436.517,"end":5462.269,"text":"新竹站跟板橋站優先施作11個站這兩個站優先施作全部最後是2028年江董事長我請教一下你們要優先施作的車站現在是預訂板橋跟新竹嗎是的那為什麼是板橋跟新竹江董事長你也清楚了"},{"start":5463.129,"end":5482.618,"text":"高鐵也是有跟台鐵一樣它的站有分相關的級數我們有特等站有一等站跟二等站三個級數那板橋跟新竹都應該是屬於一等站那特等站除了台北已經有之外台中跟左營都沒有做預先的一個規劃嗎?有"},{"start":5484.139,"end":5494.07,"text":"因為新竹站因為風特別大那旅客的行李箱以及旅客常常會掉落到月台所以我們是優先要做新竹"},{"start":5495.819,"end":5522.45,"text":"板橋呢?因為它是曲形月台那旅客也曾經跌落有這樣的影響所以我們這兩個車站那預定是2028年都會全部完成嗎?是的好謝謝江董事長謝謝我杜董事長跟江董事長針對旅客的安全真的是你們最重要的工作跟責任那來請陳世凱部長來簡單說明一下對於相關的旅客的安全針對"},{"start":5523.871,"end":5548.617,"text":"台鐵跟高鐵你有什麼基本的要求跟計畫?是相關的越台門我希望能夠儘速完成我在上任的第一天當天剛好前一天啦前一天剛好發生台中車站有一位民眾跌落軌道所以在我就任的那一天我就直接到台中站去給那個副站長鼓勵那同時我也要求台鐵公司在針對這個越台門的部分要加速來設置"},{"start":5549.497,"end":5570.774,"text":"那目前設置的部分是以高雄為先優先做事辦的方式一個月台先來做那我希望能夠加速因為我看到的是台鐵目前落軌的狀況也還蠻高那高鐵的部分當然相對沒有像台鐵這麼多不過有些地段確實是人一多就蠻危險像去年的中秋節在台中的這個高鐵站"},{"start":5571.835,"end":5587.09,"text":"我們就看到月台上蠻多的人擠爆了那是一個非常危險的事情所以這個部分我希望台鐵公司跟高鐵公司都能夠加速來進行那尤其委員剛剛所指示的就是說針對特等站也就是說人潮特別多的地方我覺得這個要優先來處理"},{"start":5588.191,"end":5610.011,"text":"好 最後 朝偉不好意思 我再借一分鐘那杜董事長跟姜董事長我們針對在月台門還沒有在設置之前那在尖峰時刻相關的旅客擁擠在月台之上那相關的這樣一個路軌的事件我們是不能讓它發生我們有什麼做基本的一個規範跟處理來 先請姜董事長"},{"start":5610.712,"end":5629.097,"text":"基本上我們對於人潮湧到月台的人數會做疏導跟管控那另外月台上也有保全人員以及帳戶人員隨時在巡視跟呼籲還有檢查等等高鐵這個部分好像他的人力比較足一點那台鐵的部分呢"},{"start":5630.237,"end":5653.691,"text":"對,跟委員報告,台鐵的部分我們還是會加派人力尤其是我們看到那個越台容量比較小一點的車站那這個車站我們會研議再來加派人力那杜董事長我最後再提醒你2022年的時候我就提醒你相關越台旅客掉落的這樣的一個不幸的事件那20"},{"start":5655.652,"end":5677.174,"text":"二三跟二零二四都還是這個競速還是非常的多了責任非常重的這個要去做全力的一個防範在玉台門設置的流程相關的完成之前相關的這個旅客的宣導跟規範以及疏導志工的服務等等這個都必須要加強保障旅客的安全"},{"start":5680.953,"end":5684.994,"text":"主席大家好,我們請部長跟台鐵董事長好,請陳部長、杜董事長"},{"start":5718.084,"end":5747.059,"text":"部長好,那個謝謝部長其實上任的隔天就到高雄去看那個月台門我們剛崑澤委員跟我其實一直在要求去年今年的那個三月客工館有人落軌死亡所以在4月18日我質詢的時候也有要求說要加裝這個月台門委員相當積極在爭取然後板橋今年8月也有人落軌死亡"},{"start":5747.984,"end":5761.491,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。六、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":5766.727,"end":5792.476,"text":"那每年平均有24件落軌事件從2018到2023有146件其中就有29個人死亡所以這件事情事實上我們應該全面來思考檢討所以剛剛聽工作人員問台鐵目前也沒有基本的就是規劃說哪裡先做哪裡晚做那是不是台鐵可以根據這個流量"},{"start":5794.554,"end":5819.539,"text":"譬如說全台灣到底火車站裡面是流量是超過1000每日還是多少或者是說哪一些比較小那有什麼安全的顧慮應該是先把這個原則訂出來然後盡速來規劃然後逐步來實施也希望把速度都加快所以這個部分除了感謝之外我們也希望說台鐵可以盡速來訂出這個計畫完成"},{"start":5822.844,"end":5849.996,"text":"二、事實上我也經常要求就是去年其實我們臺北便當節其實都辦得還不錯啦所以我也要求說能夠考慮到高雄辦那在行政院會質詢的時候我也曾經就是要求就是部長、院長以及各部會首長就是有什麼活動其實多想想高雄以前都是集中在臺北"},{"start":5850.976,"end":5862.638,"text":"那我們這幾年的要求包括那個文博館、文博會也在高雄辦過了包括現在那個33屆金曲獎也在高雄辦了"},{"start":5864.281,"end":5889.007,"text":"那最近還有一個還不錯的也跟部長鼓勵一下就是我們高雄機場現在有米其林餐廳的美食啦雖然不是米其林整建下來但是已經有米其林的素食跟牛肉麵那這個是高雄人可以嘗到這個米其林餐廳的口味這個也算是一個不錯的進步也跟部長感謝一下但是呢"},{"start":5889.847,"end":5914.824,"text":"格局還是不夠啦我們希望說包括高雄機場我一直在要求就是我們這半半施工16年才能完成那整個現在目前高雄的機場的二樓呢其實都是屬於行政那未來其實你可以看到台北松山機場那個美食其實真的是做得蠻不錯的那是不是機場在現在"},{"start":5917.606,"end":5932.14,"text":"甚至在16年完成之前有沒有什麼樣比較好的規劃可以來讓這個機場可以享受到更好的更舒適的空間跟配套報告委員"},{"start":5932.98,"end":5961.039,"text":"在高雄機場的部分因為現在配合半班施工的狀況所以他的這個辦公空間或許沒有辦法弄出來但是我知道委員希望的是他的美食空間跟整個旅客的體驗的感受要提升那這個部分其實我們可以來做更積極的提升那樓上的空間如果是辦公處所有辦法空出來我們就盡量空出來讓旅客有更多的空間可以更好的這個體驗所以其實可以思考一下我的意思就是說二樓"},{"start":5962.62,"end":5986.378,"text":"如果可以類似松山機場這樣思考那現在辦公室當然沒有地方去但是呢你16年後這個不可能永遠擺成這個樣子我們會朝這個方向那你提早做規劃其實才有辦法去處理要不然你都時間夠了說到沒空間沒空間英文也沒空間其實旅客到機場通常都會比較早啦"},{"start":5986.618,"end":6005.26,"text":"好,所以要有一些空間讓他可以有比較好的舒適。對啊,所以是不是希望說這裡可以有事先的規劃,部長跟局長可以有一些事先的規劃。那剛剛委員所提到這個便當節的部分,台鐵的便當節在明年的5月就會到高雄。是。因為委員一直在交代跟要求,所以這個部分我們在明年5月就會完成。"},{"start":6005.72,"end":6022.012,"text":"OK,我們希望說這個可以多到高雄辦活動,把一些熱鬧的場合,或者是比較可以看的有規模的活動,就是大家都盡量思考到我們高雄。那先感謝了,明天5月就可以看到便當節在我們高雄。"},{"start":6025.069,"end":6043.789,"text":"局長正好上來也跟部長感謝一下啦最近我們高雄有好幾個新的班機那也準備要開了所以也謝謝我們民航局的努力包括岡山啦、雜黃啦那包括那個我們"},{"start":6045.253,"end":6065.165,"text":"到曼谷甚至到熊本清邁對熊本清邁這個都即將即將有機會可以開始飛所以也謝謝民航局的努力我們高雄將來我們會一起來爭取讓高雄的飛機可以更寬闊好謝謝部長那再來就是那個"},{"start":6066.664,"end":6072.088,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":6088.056,"end":6110.289,"text":"車子進入我們的系統,然後我們攝影機有攝到,有圖示器進入我們的這個,已經錄影機都錄到了,然後卻沒有辦法辨識、警示、通知,都要靠人去處理,我覺得這個已經太不符合科學了,那其實現在有很多AI辨識基本上不困難,"},{"start":6111.474,"end":6118.138,"text":"是不是可以要求台鐵就是在這個攝影機的辨識能夠加入AI的辨識系統"},{"start":6120.215,"end":6145.404,"text":"報告委員這個部分應該台鐵都有已經加入了因為我們上次在這個花東所發生的事情在六月的那次的出軌的狀況其實它不是落石它那個時候是土石流從橋下面淹上來所以造成這個脫軌的狀況那這個部分我們也加入檢討所以現在除了我們的監視系統也就是CCTV的告警系統有這個監視的這個AI的判別之外"},{"start":6146.064,"end":6164.534,"text":"更重要的其實他判別出來之後要有人力還是要有人力去看啦他如果警示了還是要有人力去看去做判別那才會比較精準因為其實坦白說因為落實的部分他的實塊的大小跟形狀這個部分還要去評估所以AI的部分還是有他的極限但是我們還是會加上人力目前的不少人力"},{"start":6167.011,"end":6190.599,"text":"那個因為我有跟董事長聊過啦,他說哎呀還有很多學習的時間啦是,還有一段時間,你怎麼辦法這麼快不不不,我要跟部長跟董事長報告有一些參數你先進去就可以處理,也不用學那麼久啦你今天躺在那裡,我多少面積的東西、固定的東西在那裡我辨識出來,我就可以警示,就是辨識跟警示可以一致"},{"start":6191.599,"end":6214.465,"text":"其實這個在AI的調整這個其實參數有一些是要靠學習有一些是靠input進去給他的所以我不認為要學習那麼久那所以現在就是有26處的立即危險有裝AI我是認為就是說包括這個高風險的72處啦這個部分其實AI趕快請專家來協助交通部跟台鐵"},{"start":6215.955,"end":6242.651,"text":"這個我相信不困難,不需要花這麼長的時間所以就是整個AI的規劃我是認為就是希望部長跟董事長再要求一下好,是各位報告,這個部分我們委員交代以後我們會趕快來做評估OK,麻煩啦,因為AI沒那麼猛啦AI能把我們做得快、做得多,不用在那等那麼久啦好不好,這個部分請董事長也能夠再加強"},{"start":6244.175,"end":6256.22,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":6264.853,"end":6271.862,"text":"事實上我們也很認真在找廠商但是就是台鐵裡面有幾個問題我想細節我不講太多包括我們的空間設計、動線設計、樓地板設計、手扶梯設計就當時在規劃的時候事實上你就應該去問一下潛在廠商我內部怎麼規劃"},{"start":6282.856,"end":6297.276,"text":"不是說我整個出來了,現在來,他覺得這個地方不好,這個地方不好,用這個不舒適所以現在台鐵可能內部還要再重新再請建築師,裡面再重新佈置但是你重新佈置之前,我是建議還是要找潛在廠商去談"},{"start":6298.197,"end":6318.064,"text":"你的需求是怎麼樣?我要怎麼樣調整?才能夠覺得說啊你覺得會合?旅行的生意沒人要做啦你覺得會合來?啊我怎麼樣去公平、公正、公開、合理的情況之下能夠找到人進來?我想這個我也拜託說董事長親自操刀一下"},{"start":6318.844,"end":6346.218,"text":"這跟委員報告這有兩部分一部分就是我們的招商說明會我們在第二次招標之前我們還是有辦招商說明會然後也有爭取大家意見那另外第二個就是我們也會高級主管會親自的去拜訪我們的潛在廠商就是希望能夠真正了解他們的需求然後我們在預計是在9月30號我們第二次公告"},{"start":6346.678,"end":6374.569,"text":"我們的那個公告的內容我們可以來配合這個招商的一個期程來做一個最好的處理所以希望說董事長用一點心去找我舉個例子這部長也聽一下就是樓地板在五六樓本來是要設計那個辦公室所以你現在擺貨進去樓地板承重跟原來商場的規格不同不足不足"},{"start":6375.922,"end":6402.853,"text":"然後呢電影院設計在五六樓的時候他那個地方廠商進去看一看說啊今天可以十幾個看電影而已現在看電影十幾個就一定了解了嘛所以你在整個行程說一開始在整個那包括手扶梯等等的就是說我希望說台鐵辛苦一點就是說能夠match大家雙方面的需求那能夠順利把它招商出去那該怎麼改的大家怎麼樣去分擔"},{"start":6403.893,"end":6419.784,"text":"反正我的目的就是希望說台鐵能夠順利把我這個地方能夠找到好的廠商把他招標出去希望台鐵多努力那也希望部長幫忙跟我跟董事長一起來助力好不好好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝許智傑委員接下來有請何新淳委員發言"},{"start":6435.66,"end":6438.163,"text":"好,謝謝趙偉,大家早,我們請陳世凱部長好,請陳部長部長好委員好"},{"start":6451.844,"end":6469.129,"text":"這一次台中發生的令人非常心痛又遺憾我們東海的女大學生被公車撞死那這位女大學生是部長您的東海的小學妹所以我也非常的悲痛你也非常的悲痛所以你現在身為交通部部長我更"},{"start":6470.79,"end":6485.04,"text":"嚴厲的要求我們中央跟地方應該要好好的合作來把這個行人安全還有道路交通相關的配套我覺得這個大家都責無旁貸啦為什麼呢?尤其你也來自台中"},{"start":6486.101,"end":6505.382,"text":"台中三年前呢就發生過一次也是同一家客運公司在清水嘉陽高中前面撞死了一個高中生這個高中生住在我太平父母親阿公阿嬤都是我的好朋友三年前我們很心痛很心痛"},{"start":6507.23,"end":6515.819,"text":"當時候的台中市政府有沒有作為我不知道但是我們看到這個女高中生16歲的年紀"},{"start":6518.888,"end":6547,"text":"他的爸爸媽媽他的阿公阿嬤非常的傷心這一次他們也針對三年後竟然又發生了東海女大學生也一樣被公車撞死他們更加的悲痛而且發出了很多的心聲你知道三年前這個女高中生她是嘉陽高中的航太機械科她的夢是什麼她希望畢業之後可以進入漢翔我們呢真的"},{"start":6548.715,"end":6573.977,"text":"拜託了漢翔公司去孩子的臨前臨鄉我們送了他榮譽的員工證我們送了一套漢翔的制服給他我們非常心痛的去做這一件事情因為他只能在天堂圓夢他沒有辦法真正實踐他自己的人生夢想這是一個孩子的人生生命可是三年之後"},{"start":6576.328,"end":6597.731,"text":"你的小學妹走在斑馬線我們在道安在各級學校裡面教孩子教我們的國人我們走路要守法要走在斑馬線他守法了但是呢他一樣被公車撞死你那學生的媽媽昨天有發聲明"},{"start":6599.819,"end":6617.441,"text":"難道我們的孩子以後走在路上都要穿的盔甲嗎?部長你聽到這句話你做何感想?當然我自己也有孩子每天也都在街道上走路所以聽到這句話當然相當的難過那作為交通部長這個部分我們責無旁貸我們會來努力"},{"start":6618.363,"end":6643.115,"text":"雖然你才剛接任但是我相信你是台中人你對台中的所有的交通環境不陌生甚至呢擴及到全台灣各縣市的交通環境我們有責任所以過去呢在過去王部長的時代甚至呢在我曾經在三會期當任這個交通委員會的召委的時候我們呢全力訂定了道路交通安全的基本法"},{"start":6643.775,"end":6673,"text":"我們三讀通過了我們接著行人的交通安全設施條例也三讀通過了中央該立法中央該修法中央該政策明確找足預算來補助各地方政府來協助各地方政府來完善行人的交通安全甚至呢所有的交通的配套措施這是我們的責任但是"},{"start":6674.246,"end":6680.451,"text":"我們中央法規努力做,預算也編了。部長你認為地方政府有跟上嗎?"},{"start":6681.947,"end":6709.449,"text":"報告委員這個部分其實台中所發生的這個案例我們看到的是一個公車它該停等沒有停等在中央的法令上其實我們也已經有強制性要求大客車跟大貨車在這個過這個馬路要左轉或右轉的時候一定要停等這是強制的而且有罰則這一次這個公車有所謂的輔助系統可是沒有發生功能輔助系統基本上都有裝置"},{"start":6710.109,"end":6735.458,"text":"那但是公車的這個駕駛員到底自己有沒有注意這是一方面那二方面我剛才在講的是強制停等的部分其實我覺得我問部裡面的同仁跟我講說在北部尤其是台北市大家停等的文化跟停等的觀念比較有但確實我自己來自台中我在台中也看到許多的客貨運業者在轉彎的過程當中不一定會停等這個部分其實就是有風險"},{"start":6740.402,"end":6752.835,"text":"我們的法令上有了該宣導交通部跟地方政府會一起來努力不過要強制讓司機不敢不停等的狀況底下你就必須要有一些執法面的協助"},{"start":6753.836,"end":6781.022,"text":"讓司機知道說如果假使他不聽等會受到嚴厲的懲罰這個部分可能是地方要加強執法的部分這個地方是我們中央地方要加強執法的部分但是有一件事情在行政措施上面是我們中央地方也該做的一件事情比如說臺中市政府每年都有做市區汽車客域的評鑑報告書他每年做喔他從100年一直做喔"},{"start":6782.498,"end":6807.289,"text":"在這個市區的汽車客運評鑑報告書裡面有五大指標其中一項的指標項目就是部長你剛剛講的駕駛員、旅客服務品質與駕駛員管理還有安全也是另外一個指標那我們每年都在做都要求地方政府要做這些客運的評鑑那評鑑服務書出來了之後"},{"start":6810.646,"end":6830.275,"text":"有追蹤嗎?有追蹤嗎?有考核嗎?有確實的要求地方政府去要求這些市區的客運去要求駕駛員嗎?後續有嗎?部長,後續好像沒有你知道更諷刺的是什麼?我找到了一個數字根據剛剛"},{"start":6832.276,"end":6852.576,"text":"我提到的一百一十一年度臺中市市區汽車客運營運及服務評鑑計畫書是在去年的十二月二十二號公布的你知道這一次昭市的劇業劇業劇業竟然是滿分最高分"},{"start":6854.571,"end":6870.48,"text":"我不知道是算錯了還是怎麼樣欸一百一十年度我剛剛很心痛的坐在我太平的女高中生才被這一家客運公司的公車撞死了結果隔年他的這個評鑑他竟然是這樣子的分數"},{"start":6875.834,"end":6898.147,"text":"我們希望地方政府對於客運業者的這個評鑑可以更落實而且要更務實要確實看出因為這個評鑑其實除了要獎勵之外重點是要看出問題在評鑑的過程要看出每一個業者他的問題在哪裡那如果找得出問題就可以克服問題那如果這個評鑑總是分數都很高沒有找出問題那就很可惜"},{"start":6898.666,"end":6916.032,"text":"那部長你可不可以責成我們相關單位我們是不是可以來盤點各地方政府針對市區公車業者的這個所謂的評鑑雖然可能是他地方自治的項目但是我們可不可以就專業來協助各地方政府說那你的評鑑這個服務什麼服務書做得好不好"},{"start":6920.473,"end":6924.037,"text":"做的有沒有後續的一個追蹤、考核有沒有落實那能不能像部長一樣說的我們要從這個評鑑報告書裡面看出他們有什麼問題那有問題我們針對問題中央來協助地方甚至協助客運公司來解決"},{"start":6939.961,"end":6967.711,"text":"我們請市長各位委員報告委員提的這個方向我想我們這個公務局那邊有公共運輸補助計畫我們透過這個公共運輸的一個這個補助的機制來要求各地方政府每年評鑑做完之後必須要請專家學者來做審驗那另外一個部分就是說每年在訂這個評鑑這個指標項目的時候我們也就是說一起來做這個解釋讓每個地方政府要做評鑑的項目一定要切合他這個地方"},{"start":6968.371,"end":6981.862,"text":"這一個包括營運安全所需要的一個部分不是只有在補助款裡面的扣款機制啦我覺得還要再更積極更正向甚至呢更進一步的去輔導甚至呢抓出問題解決問題啦不然你剛剛說扣款部長"},{"start":6987.126,"end":7010.452,"text":"盧市長在臺中市政府也有五大宣示啊五大宣示的其中一個就是說他要去扣款啊扣一百二十萬啊但是部長你看了那五大宣示你覺得能夠改變現行的市區公車這個客運的生態嗎你覺得這五大宣示之後臺中市就不會再有其他的交通意外事故了嗎"},{"start":7011.479,"end":7026.296,"text":"我覺得該有的法令規定當然中央政府跟立法院這邊都相當的努力我們盡量在完善當中那地方的硬體建設的部分跟工程的改善我們也盡量在努力不過有兩個很關鍵的一方面是守法的觀念"},{"start":7026.856,"end":7055.432,"text":"二方面是以業者來說的話對於司機員的管理面跟教育面我覺得這個是重要的地方政府其實可以努力去督促我們給地方政府對於客運的補助其實在給的過程當中我們也會特別去要求地方政府未來在這一塊對於司機員的管理對於客運業者的管理要積極落實部長你剛剛講到一個重點以後表示之前我們的機制強度不夠"},{"start":7056.434,"end":7063.235,"text":"我們中央給地方政府有關這個汽車科技的補助款的時候我們現在的強度不夠嘛"},{"start":7064.841,"end":7088.877,"text":"我們加強了要求我們交通部有專業我們有那麼多學者專家那我一個給補助款的時候就如同我剛剛講的給各地方政府該有的專業指導該有的強度的要求那要求什麼你剛剛講到重點守法的觀念還有客運公司駕駛員的這個安全的一個觀念"},{"start":7090.638,"end":7107.357,"text":"還有要求很多很多那就是強度不夠嘛所以我覺得這個是要用我們政策工具預算補助的這樣的工具我們真的要拿出專業希望中央地方大家一起合作啦不然接下來這一張"},{"start":7108.629,"end":7129.648,"text":"表格,部長,我們各縣市比一比啊,死亡人數台中市都在增加,那我們每年看到這樣子的一個交通事故的死亡人數你作何感想,這每一條生命都是寶貴的,每一條生命背後都有無數傷心的家人跟破碎的家庭"},{"start":7130.819,"end":7156.392,"text":"我們跟台中市政府會一起來努力那剛剛蔡其昌委員也有質詢到這個問題我們中央以管考方面也一直在努力例如說台中確實這段時間他的數字是不好的包含這個路口改善的數字也不夠好然後這個死亡率行人死亡的數字也蠻高的所以我們就會要求他到行政院的這個道安的這個工作彙報來做專案報告"},{"start":7158.513,"end":7177.116,"text":"那報告說他們未來要怎麼樣做改善這個部分管考的部分我們會積極來要求責拜託部長因為你也來自台中那這一次喪失生命的也是你東海的小學妹我覺得不管哪一次的事故發生不管死傷的哪一個人都是一個不幸我們都希望這不是"},{"start":7178.578,"end":7191.355,"text":"一直發生我希望他是最後一次甚至我希望連一次都不能發生好不好我們中央地方一起來努力一定要保護我們國人行的安全謝謝"},{"start":7200.95,"end":7214.82,"text":"好 謝謝何委員待會發言之前先做個宣告就待會發言到萬美玲委員截止我們先休息10分鐘接下來有請廖先祥委員發言好 謝謝召委麻煩邀請我們的陳部長好 有請陳部長"},{"start":7234.4,"end":7251.309,"text":"部長部長建議一下你回到位置一下不是我因為立法院不管是你到其他委員會麻煩是不是起立徵求發言像以前議會也是一樣好不好先起立然後徵求發言請謝謝"},{"start":7257.793,"end":7282.871,"text":"好 謝謝部長謝謝委員部長今天算是您就任後第一次來到我們立法院也是教委會第一次來做報告跟備詢那其實從一開始的一些業務報告因為其實您就任的時候那當然有一些可能一些社會的輿論是說可能部長在專業度上面好像不是科班出身的"},{"start":7283.211,"end":7294.838,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":7303.983,"end":7327.62,"text":"做一些宣誓可能還是不太夠的啦我是覺得個人有點可惜啦那今天有幾大主題那當然第一個我最關心的還是行人安全的一個部分啦在行人安全的部分當然過去這兩三年來我們政府投入了非常多的一個資源上百億但是一個客觀的一個統計數據嘛在今年的上半這當然是你就任之前的事啦"},{"start":7328.34,"end":7348.296,"text":"在今年上半年跟去年同期的行人死亡數還是增加的嗎?還是增加的對不對?那我們有沒有徹底去檢討說為什麼我們政府花了這麼多錢上百億的經費但是我們的行人的A1死亡事故率還是沒有下降你有沒有針對這個部分去做一些科學化的一個客觀數據的檢討?"},{"start":7351.125,"end":7371.993,"text":"報告委員這個部分的數據其實我都有看有仔細的去分析因為發生了事件我們就要去先理解一件事就是為什麼會發生那我們去看的那個數據有21%是汽車未禮讓行人所以發生了不幸的事件有19%是行人未照標示標線"},{"start":7375.275,"end":7383.261,"text":"這兩項加起來都是違規的狀態有的是車的違規有的是行人的違規最高的是這兩項總共加起來佔了差不多四成所以以科學化來看對於違規的事件我們要怎麼有效的降低這是很重要的一件事"},{"start":7398.732,"end":7422.279,"text":"那除了這個違規的部分那有沒有針對我們的年齡啊或者是說造勢的車輛的樣態比如說今天討論非常多的是公車或者是說時段白天或者是晚上哪個時段比較容易發生車禍或者是上班的接風時間還是反而是離風的時間容易發生A1的事故那我們是針對這些"},{"start":7424.159,"end":7448.708,"text":"科學化的客觀的數據我們才能夠對症去下藥因為我們政府已經花很多錢了代表有一些可能是我們過去沒有注意到的東西那這部分有沒有可以再補充加強說明的跟委員報告數據上面來看您也非常的專業也非常的理解其實比較多的是年紀比較長的長者會比較多那以車型來講的話機車所佔的比例差不多佔了六成左右"},{"start":7449.148,"end":7474.975,"text":"我剛才講的長者差不多佔了4成然後機車的部分佔了6成那發生的時間點不幸事故發生的時間點時常都是早上的6點到8點也就是上班時間之前的這一段可能是長者出來在運動之類的還有就是傍晚的時間可能會比較多一些那這個部分有可能是因為天氣天候開始變暗開始變暗的時候其實風險就會增加那這個部分我們是目前掌握的數據"},{"start":7475.595,"end":7495.864,"text":"那也就是說除了可能一些客觀的一些路口的一個行人友善設施之外那還是有一些其他因子會提升我們行人或者是交通車輛發生事故的一些原因那我們有沒有針對當然路口的一些友善設施這個是政府花錢編列去補助地方做的沒有錯但是有一些"},{"start":7496.664,"end":7524.807,"text":"特殊情境的發生事故率高的情況那我們怎麼樣來避免這些高風險族群在高風險的時段或是情境去降低相關的風險?這個部分其實我們也在努力我相信大家都有看到就是這個行人穿越道的退縮的部分的工程我們在努力那讓它發生的機率就可以降低那另外就是說針對高風險的地區或者是學生比較多或是族群的部分"},{"start":7525.908,"end":7547.009,"text":"對老人家比較多的地方我們可能也會做一些路口讓大家在路標上面看起來比較明顯有不一樣的顏色不一樣的色彩然後再來就是說行人早開實相這個部分或者是行人專用實相這個部分我們也是全國都在推行目前大概有五千多處已經完成尤其這個特殊族群的宣導"},{"start":7548.03,"end":7574.609,"text":"教育的部分老人家的宣導老人家的教育或是特殊發生事故率高的用車族群的教育的部分有一些委員其實很關心說為什麼這個交通部今年的這個宣傳的預算有增加了不少那我們增加的最高的比例差不多佔了八成到九成就是針對行人的宣導的部分那我們過去的宣導也有發現一個狀況就是說我們過去都蠻重視在網路上面或者其他的這個手機上面的宣導"},{"start":7575.209,"end":7594.64,"text":"但我們有發現老人家比較會看電視比較會看紙本的文宣所以在未來我們的改善方案裡面就是在宣導跟宣傳的部分增加電視的廣告那增加紙本的廣告甚至可以到公園去跟地方政府合作在公園跟老人家做宣導這個部分我們都會持續來努力"},{"start":7595,"end":7610.814,"text":"好我想這個我想今天最主要的最主要的部分就是提醒說我們既然政府正是這個問題的那全民其實也都非常重視這個問題花了這麼多錢下去結果這個事故的A1死傷率居然沒有下降反而是提升代表有某一些部分"},{"start":7611.534,"end":7632.936,"text":"是我們過去忽略的我們以為花錢就可以解決事情的但實際上並不是那我們可能需要更深刻去探討它或許每年幾件這是一個統計的數據但是我們必須要去探討它每一件背後發生的原因然後來對症下藥然後才解決它我們政府的經費才不會白花那我可不可以給部長看你願不願意"},{"start":7634.518,"end":7651.91,"text":"因為畢竟您在就任前這個死亡人數較去年通緝是增加的那您有沒有信心在您就任後的半年您有沒有給自己一個相關的目標希望國內的行人A1的事故在您就任後的半年有一個最起碼的怎樣的一個改善"},{"start":7653.211,"end":7680.357,"text":"報告委員我們整體的目標因為說實在的你說短期之內要快速的解決我覺得沒有這麼容易但是我們希望在2030年之前能夠讓他的機率降低50%那以整體的不說行人的以整體的這個肇事的死亡死傷率來講的話我們在前半年其實是有達標的是有達標的那我們希望拉一個長段時間來看包含委員剛才在講的工程的努力"},{"start":7680.717,"end":7681.398,"text":"我們今年希望能夠降7%"},{"start":7696.341,"end":7715.774,"text":"今年是您的任內的跟去年同期相比還是整年度整年度整年度包含你就任前的部分比上一年度降低百分之七我們希望朝這個方向好百分之七大家一起加油我不會說你沒有達到就要下台怎麼樣但是我希望部長給自己一個目標我們同仁會有更有一個目標來來努力"},{"start":7718.696,"end":7735.313,"text":"第二部分我請教一下台鐵的部分台鐵不用上來沒關係因為我不是要討論你們的漲價跟漲價有關但是跟你們沒關係就是說我們有一個TPAS專案對不對那部長有宣示了就算我們台鐵票價漲了我們TPAS的1280"},{"start":7738.676,"end":7763.452,"text":"一二零零這個東西是不會動的對不對不受影響不受影響那代表說我們政府的補貼金額是要增加的嘛對不對必然是的是必然的票價增加因為我們的TPUS的原則是一二零零吃到飽對一二零零吃到飽那我們的民眾即便他搭的台鐵的這個用具工具他的價格提高這個部分都由政府來吸收對一部分是中央政府嘛一部分是地方政府那我不確定這一個部分有沒有地方政府已經提出來因為這個是"},{"start":7764.733,"end":7781.111,"text":"一定是增加地方政府的一個財政支出的一個情形嗎?我們今年漲價的機會是蠻高的應該是這樣子看但是地方政府你們有沒有提前請他們因為地方政府現在也在編經費啦他們有沒有提早你們有沒有告訴他們說需要編列多少經費"},{"start":7782.775,"end":7801.609,"text":"來支應這個漲價或者是說我們交通部我們台鐵漲價沒關係那我們也不要增加地方政府的負擔相關的差額在明年度的時候我們交通部必須來把它cover掉不要讓地方政府增加負擔跟委員報告TPAS的部分它的經費90%是由中央來負擔10%是由地方來負擔"},{"start":7804.551,"end":7826.258,"text":"那雖然比例上不高不過未來台鐵如果是漲價之後我們的公路局會再跟地方來做協商盡量不要讓地方增加太多的負擔好那這一點就麻煩好不好希望能夠不要增加地方財政的負擔就不要增加財政的負擔不要變成說好我們中央同意台鐵漲價我們中央也很霸氣的跟民眾說"},{"start":7827.498,"end":7828.579,"text":"好,謝謝各位委員"},{"start":7854.861,"end":7863.369,"text":"一位林培祥委員也到了現場那待會等林培祥委員這個發言完我們再休息接下來有請萬美玲委員發言謝謝召委我們有請陳世凱部長好陳部長"},{"start":7884.264,"end":7904.505,"text":"好部長上任到今天第幾天?25天今天來備詢緊不緊張?過去有12年質詢別人的經驗今天第一次備詢當然有一些需要適應的過程好那我想我們就開始喔我想雖然你過去還沒有上任但是這個交通上面你來了以後應該都有多所去了解111年12月喔"},{"start":7906.107,"end":7924.225,"text":"因為美國媒體CNN的報導將台灣稱作行人地獄所以我想整個國人或者政府整個開始重視我們行人的交通安全所以立法院也要回應這個改善行人安全所以在去年的4月份我們也修正了道路交通管理處罰條例那麼對於不停讓行人加重處罰6000"},{"start":7926.827,"end":7949.943,"text":"那去年8月20號的時候部長有沒有注意到我們行人臨死亡推動聯盟號召了近3萬人來一個大遊行那麼訴求就是要終結台灣行人交通地域所以12月立法院也馬上三讀通過了道路交通安全基本法將交通事故臨死亡的一個願景跟以人為本的主張納入修法這個我想部長應該知道"},{"start":7950.543,"end":7955.448,"text":"不過一年多過去全國行人死傷人數111年17157人112年來到17660人其中讓人更遺憾痛心的是12歲以下的兒童死傷人數111年972人"},{"start":7969.341,"end":7998.536,"text":"一百一十二年一千兩百四十二人他不僅僅是增加而且還雙雙創下五年來的新高這個數字部長雖然剛到任可是要深刻的記在心中那麼這等於什麼每一天平均有四十八位行人其中四位是兒童在台灣的道路上非死即傷而且這個數字的背後我們都知道這代表是一個一個破碎的家庭所以我想這個數字部長我想請後面那兩位先回座"},{"start":8000.29,"end":8020.514,"text":"回座謝謝好這樣子部長比較可以專心啊因為聽說您今天是來聆聽的嘛對不對那我想真的要認真聆聽喔那這個數字喔其實我們觸目驚心您跟我跟我們的國人啊都覺得這樣的數字是不可以存在的其實真的要靈啊那不但沒有靈還不斷去上升喔好我們再來看喔"},{"start":8020.854,"end":8033.851,"text":"交通部在今年113年預算在道路交通安全的向下你編列了6.05億辦理第十四期行政院頒訂的道路交通秩序與交通安全改進方案的這些業務嘛對不對好112年也編了6.7億這兩年編的"},{"start":8039.298,"end":8055.465,"text":"都相較於111年的3.08億增加了3億好 我們再看111年底行政院合訂了校園周邊際道路行車安全改善計畫由內政部跟交通部分別編列了41.5億跟3.5億那麼之後又有"},{"start":8058.846,"end":8085.16,"text":"永續提升人行安全計畫這個四年計畫,部長應該知道嗎?113年到116年總經費來到了400億由內政部跟交通部分別匡列了260億跟140億本席為什麼以上在談這些背景一方面因為部長要聆聽那我不知道這些數字,部長已經知不知道了我必須讓您知道但更重要的是,以上換句話說就是"},{"start":8085.98,"end":8111.112,"text":"當我們要改善這些交通尤其是在行人這個事情上面政府你們是要法我們給法你們要錢我們給錢你們希望修法我們修法你們希望要經費我們給經費但是呢行人死傷的人數還是逐年的增加那我相信許許多多我們所有的委員不管是不是交通委員會的委員每一個人都非常關心那也問過這個歷任的交通部長"},{"start":8112.252,"end":8136.978,"text":"這個問題一而再再而三其實在這個委員會裡面一直都在好像似乎沒有辦法解決那您上任了以後大家對您當然有很高度的期許因為大家都在質疑說您不是交通的背景還有過去的經歷好像跟交通都沒有關係但是本行今天並不在這件事情上面對你存有非常大的質疑因為我們還是願意給你機會給你這個時間去把它好好做好不過"},{"start":8138.098,"end":8143.622,"text":"您已經上任第一時間您提出了解決方案真的讓我們瞠目結舌您竟然說要改善是要提高見警率加強取締這個就是你還沒解決一個問題你又帶出了另外一個問題我覺得非常不可思議"},{"start":8153.669,"end":8174.241,"text":"我不知道這在引起這個輿論一片嘩然之後你有沒有覺得非常的懊惱覺得怎麼會提出這樣子那等一下我把它講完待會留時間給您我想取締絕對是交通上面的一個手段而不是目的啦安全才是這個我們一定都有這個共識所以呢你當初把它提出來的時候交通沒有解決反而我覺得警戒一片炸鍋啦來部長"},{"start":8174.906,"end":8194.544,"text":"好 謝謝委員感謝您今天提到這個問題我也一直想要說明這個問題因為坦白說大家有這樣的說法表示什麼表示這是一個很典型的大家只看標題沒看文字的內容如果有仔細看那篇報導的內容在當天的記者會我的說法是第一我們要窮盡所有工程的手段"},{"start":8195.365,"end":8216.954,"text":"第二、我們要針對教育安全宣導的部分道路安全的教育宣導的部分我們要積極去落實讓道路安全的觀念落實在每一個人的腦海裡第三、由於我剛有講過一個數據因為我們行人的這個死亡的部分有佔了四成不管是車的違規或者是行人的違規針對違規的部分佔了四成坦白說"},{"start":8219.875,"end":8244.945,"text":"要解救任何的人命該做的做法都應該要做所以第三個方案我提出要加強執法而加強執法裡面有科技執法也有見警率的部分我講的其實是完整的這樣子那第四還有一個很重要就是監理的方案這個部分也是交通部一直在努力的但很可惜的是當時的媒體只有取一個標題但內容都有寫到不過更可惜的是有一些"},{"start":8246.246,"end":8263.71,"text":"朋友大概都沒有看我當時講的內容也沒有看報導內容我想這個本席其實今天因為外國人會時間有限但我還是給了你很多時間去做說明那我希望啦您講的很好解決交通的問題每一個面上能做都要做那但是呢我覺得這個有輕重環節還有能"},{"start":8265.811,"end":8273.573,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":8286.656,"end":8301.941,"text":"全方面都要來做但是呢一上來就有這樣一個等於是一個你認為是誤會也好但我們認為說其實你在這個各方面方法上面的比例跟執行率上沒有去掌握得很好但是我想其實講得很完整所以大家只看那個標題您剛剛上任那我們也希望就是後面能夠看到有一些更具體的作為那麼再來"},{"start":8309.744,"end":8333.718,"text":"我想你一定自己也有注意到因為雖然你身為交通部長但同時你有另外一個身份你也是行人或者你也可能是駕駛人嘛所以我們這幾年看到我們停讓行人其實在現場的執行還是有很多的問題跟困擾嘛那你不管是今天我們禮讓行人在邁馬線上走的時候我們右轉的車輛可能就是後面大塞車大排長龍那甚至於還是有這個駕駛會去搶"},{"start":8336.04,"end":8363.519,"text":"所以我覺得我們看到的是不希望一個政策還沒有解決一個問題行人地域還沒有解決就行車地域又來了我們希望這個問題部長能夠改善積極那最後一點我們去年提交通部要地方優先提報這個義照市入口的改善合計提報799處入口那目前改善245處也就是改善率只有30.6%非常非常的低那這一點呢"},{"start":8364.079,"end":8378.297,"text":"我想不論是中央不論是地方應該都要配合因為呢我覺得交通的問題不會分藍綠那任何一個縣市都有可能面對交通帶來的一個困境所以呢這個30.6%為什麼這麼低我希望會後啊部長能夠來把這個做一個說明那最後"},{"start":8383.624,"end":8402.642,"text":"最後本席今天非常的羨慕這個高雄啊,非常羨慕許智傑委員啊他今天在這裡啊,上來的時候呢,不斷的感謝您那我隱約只聽到感謝非常非常多,特別是您上任第一天都要到高雄所以他感謝您非常多事情,其實我非常非常羨慕啦那當然喔,我們桃園啊,不知道部長上來來過了嗎?"},{"start":8403.983,"end":8427.834,"text":"去過了來過幾次一次來過一次所以連我們朝委都不知道您來過其實我是自己去看您自己去看的對不是公開的好那我想我希望因為您剛上任我們不會苛求不過呢我們總是希望如果其他的縣市都走過您熟悉的台中啦或者是您重視的這個高雄啦我們覺得很棒很好但是很好很好那我們希望"},{"start":8428.374,"end":8457.478,"text":"桃園現在有綠線捷運各項捷運在做鐵路地下化延宕了9年那現在問題非常的多同時桃園的這個國道客運的問題相當的嚴重我們希望能不能在這邊我公開的來邀請部長能夠在最短的時間之內跟我們的交委跟我們桃園這邊來做一個聯繫那請部長下來幫我們解決桃園許多的交通問題可以嗎報告委員我昨天有跟交委報告過了隨時他邀請我隨時去"},{"start":8458.078,"end":8479.28,"text":"我也可以邀請您嗎?因為今天有聽說嘛您這個交通委員會的委員都這個這個拜訪完了那有一些非交通委員會也有拜訪那我想說我辦公室406非常歡迎部長來好不好好最後兩句話您接交通部長我本人非常佩服您的勇氣但是我更想看到您的成績沒問題我會努力謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8486.564,"end":8491.307,"text":"好 謝謝萬委員接下來有請林佩祥委員發言有請陳部長有請陳部長呃"},{"start":8516.072,"end":8522.794,"text":"部長抱歉目前這個是時事題目前您知道在基隆市基金一路這邊的交流道目前正在淹水嗎?"},{"start":8524.346,"end":8551.238,"text":"這個我沒有掌握到請高工局局長上台高工局局長現在這個時間在帶淹水我想現在這個時間我不知道現在應該是東森新聞現在正在報現在在高速公路的交流道上面淹水應該是基金一路上國道南下交流道已經經建小河不知道你有沒有掌握這個狀況我剛剛在開會之前我打電話給你剛好你沒有接到"},{"start":8552.796,"end":8579.014,"text":"而且這個是高空局因為這個交流道是我在當議員的時候辦過三次會刊那針對這邊排水報告委員這個應該是在基金一路上面的不是我們在那個閘道上的閘道上也有閘道上的部分是那個是水流那個不會到淹水的一個地方已經淹了你可以看那個新聞你可以在交流道上面有淹水那我想說我不管怎麼樣因為這部分沒有說到妨礙到那個通行老師有因為已經有車泡水了"},{"start":8579.534,"end":8600.993,"text":"所以說我不知道說我們今天在這邊辯論的結果是什麼但是我們現在趕快確認然後趕快去解決問題因為老實說我這個問題已經是我這已經辦過兩次但是當初當議員的時候已經辦過兩次會刊但是後來是高工取方面來講比較老實講如果今天不當立法委員基隆也不會有人跟你講說那邊的事情高工取需要負一些責任"},{"start":8603.234,"end":8628.693,"text":"所以我在這邊直接就講說局長我們當初你來找我的時候我並不知道豪大雨會再度發生那現在颱風要來了豪大雨現在基隆全區都有可能淹水那包括等一下公路總局包括公路總局基辛一路目前也有淹水的狀況所以針對這一點的話我想未來等雨勢停了之後我們需要辦一些會刊我會邀請市政府一起來聯合會刊解決這次的問題可以嗎"},{"start":8629.634,"end":8652.252,"text":"我們等一下馬上用CCP先看現在新聞上面都在報你 要拿這個新聞一點都不難好不好 因為我有點急委員如果有需要會看交通部一定配合好 謝謝然後再來 其實我要談的上次也是主要的就是有關剛剛萬美玲外委員有提到桃園的國道客運是有一些很明顯很明顯的問題的"},{"start":8653.593,"end":8680.448,"text":"那我也知道公務總局有一些應對的方法針對短程的客運但是這一點來講的話我就必須在這邊跟公務總局講一句話你們的宣傳可能嚴重不足那不理因為如果說這個短程的國道客運寄費方式補貼已經有改善那為什麼萬委員會不知道為什麼那個邱若驊委員會不知道為什麼桃園的委員不知道這些事情"},{"start":8682.426,"end":8698.033,"text":"這個應該是主動你們去跟這些委員們說明而不是我今天問出來我因為我一直在追這個案子劉委員那邊也說劉委員有跟我講劉許廷劉委員跟我講說這邊可能補貼的不夠但是這個不管怎麼樣你們這不管怎麼樣"},{"start":8698.553,"end":8715.83,"text":"桃園跟基隆都是一樣有國道客運來台北上班可是因為短時間在尖峰時段人潮擁擠可是平常沒人做的狀況所以我知道你們有補貼機制但是你們有沒有去問過這些除了問過基隆的委員我本人之外你們有問過跟這些桃園的委員報告過嗎"},{"start":8722.272,"end":8737.549,"text":"國道客運的運價調整在今年的五月份因為短途包括基隆跟桃園它的特性又特別不一樣所以就是說它在五月我們通過之後九月我們又有另外一個短途通勤的"},{"start":8738.55,"end":8757.185,"text":"客運在調整,那我想我會再跟監理所、我會到跟當地的委員說那我會希望說局長跟部長這邊既然你們有做這些事情應該跟委員報告沒有錯應該讓當地的委員都知道因為你們如果跟委員們主動講委員們才會跟民眾講民意代表就是代表民意"},{"start":8757.625,"end":8758.826,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就"},{"start":8776.477,"end":8803.644,"text":"可是我現在現在那個局長已經上來了我必須在這邊再提到說上次我提過兩個問題兩個議題第一個議題就是有關基隆市因為基隆市的通勤人口是應該如果以比例來講是全台灣最高的那全台灣最高之外那我們現在目前來講如果說台鐵因為我知道等一下請台鐵杜董事長準備上台台鐵目前先不要講說目前基層的員工的抱怨有關有關薪資制度的問題但是目前來講台鐵"},{"start":8805.807,"end":8831.961,"text":"五點蠻嚴重的尤其在基隆到台北早上上班的時候我已經跟國防市長已經合力要求加班但是目前狀況還是很嚴重而且我現在目前知道最新的消息是我本來預估的一萬兩千人的這個台鐵搭台鐵往返基隆風情上班跟上課現在已經銳減成為八千人左右也就是說這多出來四千人不是做國道刻印就是自己開車"},{"start":8833.581,"end":8855.08,"text":"所以我們很明顯的可以看到現在每天早上上班的時候基本上從6點半、6點45分開始高速公路就會塞車那這一點來講的話其實台鐵如果台鐵你們加班次也好還是解決霧點的問題的時候其實對於整個基隆市的通勤是會絕對有幫助的好 謝謝副董事長先講一下看有沒有加班的計畫"},{"start":8856.448,"end":8880.063,"text":"沒有 跟委員報告 那個我沒有注意到這個情形這8000人的這個通勤營量是往下掉 本來是12000現在往下掉到8000 足足減了差不多將近50%是 但是這個 我們車上就是並沒有擁擠的情形所以說 這個應該跟加班董事長 沒有擁擠的情形就代表民眾對於台鐵失去信心啊"},{"start":8881.684,"end":8898.845,"text":"如果說像國道客運我想局長可以直接講每一個國道客運1815、1813、1813D每一個都是滿班如果說滿班的話如果台鐵如果位置很空的話那就代表什麼代表一般民眾不想坐台鐵因為他們不確定會不會到的"},{"start":8898.885,"end":8921.021,"text":"這是跟委員報告所以委員剛剛講的沒錯這個真的是需要檢討加班不是唯一的選項我們現在是要把準點率把它拉出來讓我們的旅客能夠再回流到我們台鐵進行通勤通學的搭乘我是直接問什麼時候你們會有改善方案什麼時候我們可以看到成效"},{"start":8922.161,"end":8945.209,"text":"怎麼樣可以讓基隆的通行組坐台鐵可以說一小時然後真的知道一小時從基隆火車站可以直接到台北火車站而且不會誤點到一小時半有沒有機會有什麼時候給我答案我想我們把整體的我們的改善的情形整理好以後就跟委員報告好嗎好"},{"start":8945.969,"end":8972.705,"text":"我這邊還是要跟局長因為現在鐵路的乘客量往下掉變成說大家都是自己開車或者坐國道客運所以我之前跟你提過的1815、157、918、1813D這三條酷限可能要加班次甚至你本來甚至你目前有補助的1573跟9026這五條路線都刻意要加班次而9026的經營不善這點對我來講其實我一直在一直長期在關注著這點我希望局長這邊能夠"},{"start":8974.266,"end":8983.534,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":8991.781,"end":9009.696,"text":"但是尷尬的地方就是人口增長都是在中山區都是在西邊中山區那邊而西邊中山區那邊現在有一個大型的建案那邊有2500戶變成是說那邊的人如果全部讓這2500戶全部來台北上班全部都開車你就會有1200台以上的小客車"},{"start":9011.858,"end":9040.197,"text":"那這樣對於臺北市交通或整個高速公路上面交通會有很大的衝擊所以這邊上次我有跟過局長講請局長主動而且積極的去尋求可能性從中山區這邊可以直接到南港的國道客運或者是區間車這樣才能實質上的利用國道客運然後把我們的公共運我們的大眾運具的運載量往上提最重要的是讓高速公路不會那麼再塞車局長"},{"start":9042.36,"end":9059.234,"text":"委員所提的這個部分因為新興社區的這個將來衍生出來的這個客運的需求的話那包括就是說是不是要新闢路線或者是委員有路線要做一些調整或增搬的部分我想我們已經在跟這個包括客運業者跟我們的建立所已經在研議了是"},{"start":9059.975,"end":9083.696,"text":"什麼時候可以給我答案呢這個部分的話我想會盡快我在下週就跟這一個把我們的研議的方案跟委員報告為什麼我有這麼急的原因是其實那邊的社區如果我們不早一點去做先前的準備的話我們那邊的社區人最後面就全部開車上去最後面現在不只在基隆市內交通會塞高速公路也會塞甚至到台北也會塞"},{"start":9084.096,"end":9089.34,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":9105.791,"end":9133.605,"text":"怎麼講我也會很樂意說能夠的話來基隆做一次考察你不用邀請我或要求我因為您剛剛說的那個新興社區就在我岳母家的旁邊我太太帶小朋友要回娘家也是搭那邊的客運那你知道那邊的客運現在最高的地方是那個客運站在那個客運站在之前就載滿了啦所以來是沒有辦法載的那你知道如果部長知道這個狀況的話我們就請局長跟各個相關單位集體解決市長會去基隆再找委員好"},{"start":9134.585,"end":9134.765,"text":"好 謝謝部長"},{"start":9163.664,"end":9177.63,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":9178.65,"end":9194.219,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":9198.742,"end":9216.482,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":9839.94,"end":9854.953,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來有請陳素悅委員發言謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳部長好 有請陳部長"},{"start":9865.832,"end":9882.408,"text":"部長早安我們知道就是說在前年底因為這個CNN媒體的一個報導說我們台灣的這個交通環境對行人很不友善那並形容台灣是這個行人地獄所以這樣子的一個"},{"start":9884.569,"end":9908.162,"text":"對整個我們國家的形象也是一個重創那也引起國人非常大的一個重視跟議論所以我們在中央我們看到行政院也非常的積極針對這部分有做出了一些回應我們看到在去年2023年的5月跟8月行政院就分別通過行人優先交通政策綱領還有行人交通安全政策綱領"},{"start":9909.062,"end":9927.049,"text":"那在今年的四月也三讀通過的行人交通安全設施條例那我們今年這個行政院也編列了四年四百億要來提升這個有序提升人行安全計畫所以我們這樣子就是說希望透過中央與地方政府的一個"},{"start":9927.329,"end":9931.733,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":9944.566,"end":9965.051,"text":"那舊工程的部分我們來看因為今天應該也很多委員都有關心就是就目前我們交通部所掌握的就是全台799處的路口改善那在1到8月間的這個改善的一個成果我們看到這樣子一個統計數字就是以六都來"},{"start":9965.851,"end":9993.337,"text":"看的話臺中的這個執行率是最低的就是以件數跟它預期改善的數字來做一個計算的話它的比例是只有6.3%那如果以全國非六都來看甚至還有就是未改善一件都沒有的所以在這邊想先請教一下部長就是說對於這些危險路口到底是我們的經費沒有到位呢還是說他們的執行率真的有問題"},{"start":9994.742,"end":10022.538,"text":"報告委員這些路口其實就是中央跟地方一起選定的799處我們希望能夠快速來進行中央也會如果年底之前完成的話都會做全額的補助跟補貼所以錢的部分是沒有問題不過實際的執行面上面的話大部分是由地方政府來完成以交通部來說的話我們在公路系統也就是省道系統公路的部分是交通部來負責那2000處的部分我們目前的進度是超前的"},{"start":10023.158,"end":10050.445,"text":"那但是對於地方這個799處的改善的部分應該絕大多數是地方政府那以彰化來說確實數字上比較低那這12件裡面其中有一件是跟交通部有關的那11件是跟國土署有關的那交通部有關的這一件已經完成了那另外還有11件那已經完成了一件是國土署的但還有10件是國土署要補助給彰化縣政府所以這個部分可能彰化縣政府要積極努力"},{"start":10050.985,"end":10067.601,"text":"是那就是說針對這樣子的目前的一個進度啊我們就是能夠清楚看出來他們的這個執行的比例啊所以對這樣子執行率偏低的狀況我們交通部是不是應該要更積極的去輔導或者協助督促他們能夠盡快的做一個改善"},{"start":10068.621,"end":10088.909,"text":"這個部分我們每個月像您的這個數據我們每個月都會公告在網路上那其實地方的民意代表也非常關注這個議題所以他們看到這個資訊自然會去跟地方政府去要求跟督促那另外就是說這個部分剩下的彰化剩下的那10件應該改善的路口是跟國土署比較相關那國土署也會應該會盡量協助地方"},{"start":10092.89,"end":10114.545,"text":"那就是我們交通部宣示就是要從四個面向來改善這個跟提升這個交通安全環境跟這個行人的一個安全可是很遺憾的就是說我們看到這個統計數字今年一到六月我們根據交通部的統計就是整體的交通事故的死亡人數是比去年同期有減少"},{"start":10115.345,"end":10141.395,"text":"一百四十一人是下降了九趴那機車高齡、酒駕及兒少的死亡都有減少可是行人事故的死亡率就是一百八十三人反而是比去年同期增加了十人就是這個比例增加了五點八趴所以這樣子真的是讓我們覺得非常的遺憾那當然就是說其中我們依據交通部的一個分析這個噪音有就是其中包括就是車輛沒有依規定來"},{"start":10143.237,"end":10161.196,"text":"暫停這個禮讓行人的部分那當然有行人沒有依標誌或標線來穿越道路這樣子的一個狀況可是就是說車輛位依規定暫停的比例是比較高的所以這部分應該還是要再去加強這個是不是透過監理或教育的一個手段"},{"start":10161.996,"end":10190.003,"text":"來加強監理跟教育的手段我們都會加強那教育的部分我剛有報告過就是說我們在明年度也就是114年的這個預算裡面我們增加了五千多萬的這個宣導的經費這個部分我們會跟地方政府一起來合作做宣導的部分那至於監理面我也在跟部裡面的同仁在在討論就是未來針對考照的部分的加強教育跟安全的概念那個考照不要讓他太簡單就考過"},{"start":10190.943,"end":10197.032,"text":"這個部分其實我們有些數據看起來是會有效的所以監理面的部分、考照面的部分我們都會來加強努力"},{"start":10197.654,"end":10224.78,"text":"是 好 那相信部長也有注意到那很多人都很關心就是在前幾天就發生了這個台中的這個公車因為轉彎又去撞擊了這個就是穿越馬路的這個東海大學的女學生然後造成其中一個女學生不幸傷重亡生了嘛那也再度引起社會的一個高度的一個關注可是我們去看一下就是去搜尋一下資料"},{"start":10226,"end":10248.948,"text":"這個台中的公車的這樣子的一個事故近三年來已經發生了三件很嚴重的這樣子的一個事故所以這個比例也是非常的高而且都是造成了有這個行人傷亡的這樣子的一個重大事故所以針對這樣子的一個重大事故我們交通部有沒有去主動了解到底原因是出在哪裡"},{"start":10250.348,"end":10267.346,"text":"其實這個事故看起來應該是因為這個司機應該要停等在左轉或右轉的時候應該要停等但他沒有依照我們的規定來停等他就直接就開過去了那其實我們交通部都有嚴格要求第一我們的客運或者是貨運的大車"},{"start":10268.687,"end":10285.788,"text":"在要過馬路的時候要左轉或右轉第一你必須要停等第二甚至我們有要求要指叉確認也就是左看右看前看指叉確認要做那明顯的看起來是他們並沒有落實到這一點那這個部分當然我們有罰則有罰則但是地方落實的狀況"},{"start":10287.049,"end":10300.34,"text":"這個部分如果可以再更落實一點我相信這些憾事都能夠排除掉都能夠避免掉所以這個部分我們會再積極要求各個地方政府在針對我們的規定的部分該怎麼樣落實我們會盡量協助盡量跟他們溝通"},{"start":10301.112,"end":10323.268,"text":"是,剛剛部長你講的就是說他沒有停等嘛可是我們去看一下瞭解一下其中有一件這個車禍事故就是在2022年這個伊拉克籍的男子他一家山口就是過馬路的時候被撞擊那這個就是伊拉克籍這個丈夫他在接受訪問的時候他有講到說這個司機速度很快"},{"start":10324.569,"end":10343.489,"text":"就是車速過快。那包括這一次的這個東海大學的女學生的事故之後我們也發現網路上也有網友在嘲諷說這個台中市政府不用辦賽車賽了因為在整個市區上這個就是這個公車就是開快車等於就是在像在賽車一樣了"},{"start":10345.251,"end":10368.238,"text":"所以造成這樣子的原因我想這個應該也是我們要去了解的那我有去了解了一下我不曉得這正不正確可是我也希望我們交通部是不是也要去主動了解一下就是也有人反映說因為台中市政府實施的這個交通新制就是說這個班車客運如果誤點托班就是要罰錢開罰"},{"start":10370.078,"end":10390.815,"text":"所以是不是這樣子也導致了這個司機在行駛在載客的時候他有一個心理的壓力他為了怕霧點他就要開快車那開快車就等於造成了相對的一個危險這個就是互為因果的一個關係所以這個部分我們交通部是不是可以去做一個瞭解"},{"start":10391.215,"end":10406.19,"text":"就我所知因為我以前擔任台中市的議員就我所知很像台中市是有類似托班會做開罰的動作那這個部分如果大家覺得說會不會因為這個因素造成很多的公車的司機怕被罰"},{"start":10407.031,"end":10430.892,"text":"所以開的特別快,這個部分我們會主動來跟台中市政府來溝通跟協調。那做仔細的研究,說這個準點率跟這個行車的安全,中間該怎麼抓平衡點,這個我們再主動積極去找台中市政府來溝通。因為其實在一般市民的一個印象裡面,就是台中市的共車開很快。所以應該就是要先去了解一下為什麼他們會開這麼快。"},{"start":10434.799,"end":10442.995,"text":"應該從司機去做一個訪問或訪查,應該就可以得出一個結果。我們到地方去了解一下之後,再協助台中市政府來做更好的改善。"},{"start":10443.889,"end":10465.392,"text":"對,所以我覺得說如果是因為這樣子的一個要求跟制度啊就跟我們交通部要宣示的這個監理跟教育的這樣子的一個面向就相違背了因為我們本來是希望透過教育讓不管是駕駛或者是行人都能夠遵守這個交通安全結果反而在這樣子的一個規定如果說造成司機有一個壓力的話"},{"start":10465.933,"end":10484.372,"text":"我想就是跟我們的政策就是利益有相違背了再來就是我們在這個面向裡面當然執法應該是最後的一個手段我們也看到最近我們中央政府也補助地方廣設這個就是"},{"start":10486.754,"end":10515.268,"text":"就是科技執法就是這個超速的照相等等可是這樣子的一個政策實施之後我也是希望我們交通部也要去做一個滾動式的檢討因為我們在地方民眾給我們的反應就是說政府在跟民眾搶錢因為當然就是我們的利益是希望能夠遏止這個違規希望大家守法要守法可是就是說目前我們也看到就是說這個"},{"start":10516.808,"end":10544.885,"text":"審計部也有檢討苗栗縣政府針對科技執法裝設之後的成果因為有些路口是裝設了之後造勢率是不減反增的所以這個部分我們也希望交通部能夠做一個事實點解的這個部分我們會跟內政部來做協調因為這個部分是內政部警政署他們在負責的那我們會來跟他們做協調說怎麼樣落實會讓民眾達到一個最好的平衡那也達到安全的效果"},{"start":10545.815,"end":10546.135,"text":"好,謝謝陳樹葉委員"},{"start":10572.998,"end":10600.284,"text":"好接下來有請林俊憲委員發言好感謝主席本席邀請我們交通部陳部長有請陳部長我們台鐵的杜董事長杜董事長好"},{"start":10601.621,"end":10630.29,"text":"部長好 委員好部長我先給你看個照片喔好這我們台南火車站的照片喔你看一下我們台南火車站是這火車站是我們台南市的門戶啦現在很像一個工地啦左邊有圍那個綠色篱笆那個鐵那個很難看喔是那右邊是改善後啦那改善後還是個工地啦比較好看一點的工地啦"},{"start":10631.431,"end":10643.883,"text":"但是因為去年11月本席有辦一個會刊當時杜董事長也有去我們交通部的胡市長胡香林今天不在他也有去他帶隊的"},{"start":10645.896,"end":10655.499,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":10664.383,"end":10688.695,"text":"那旅客進出這個真的是個大笑話後來他都改成右邊他有承諾要改啦然後還說要配合臺灣燈會臺南建整400年那火車站要用一些燈光去給他裝飾啦光雕啦那後來全部跳票啦胡說八道根本也沒有啦現在就像右邊這樣子啦那重點是我要請教啦"},{"start":10689.96,"end":10701.395,"text":"部長你要督促一下台鐵啦台南火車站整修啦什麼時候可以完工啦你知道這個火車站啦預計完工日是2021年後來延一年說2022年1月"},{"start":10705.123,"end":10722.668,"text":"結果呢,2022年的2月就被落令停工,為什麼?因為他破壞古蹟啦。就建,建,營造商跟建築師,我不知道發生什麼事啦。就是說,把古蹟給弄壞了。停工啦,停工到現在已經兩年半了。我不知道什麼時候可以完工了。阿哥委員報告,來。"},{"start":10728.53,"end":10754.532,"text":"根據委員報告臺南400年是一個非常臺灣很重要的一個里程碑所以一個都市裡面尤其在最近這100年來講的話火車站會是最關鍵的一個設施所以這個400年裡面最重要的這100年的火車站的設施必然要快速來完成尤其是古蹟的這個修護我看這個上面寫委員所提供的上面寫說修壞了這是非常的不應該那細節我是不是請那個臺鐵"},{"start":10755.413,"end":10783.947,"text":"他已經停工兩年半了來杜董事長跟委員報告還是感謝委員你什麼時候可以動工那個現在的我講進度了現在的進度是因為先前我們招標要來持續修復工程這件事情沒有人來投標留標了那我們戲就他的原因是因為廠商不肯來是因為沒有辦法釐清楚說到底這裡面有多少你告訴我你的問題你解決了沒有"},{"start":10785.148,"end":10814.22,"text":"有阿現在齁現在這個主要的問題阿你告訴我當時的完工啦台南市政府的文資局齁他現在同意齁來幫我們代辦調查阿那個代辦協議書已經好了所以他台南市政府所以什麼時候這個完工你也沒把握啦這個完工照我的估算齁那什麼時候可以重新動工啦重新動工要到完成整個程序的話要到115年的年終"},{"start":10815.888,"end":10833.407,"text":"同心動工那115年,2026年中,所以還要再等兩年啊?115年的年中,對所以希望工地還要再持續兩年部長,這個火車站整修只剩10%啦"},{"start":10835.009,"end":10857.504,"text":"那這十發就開始停工,停工兩年半,現在照杜董事長的解釋還要再等兩年才能動工,那動工不知道要做多久才可以完工,這台南會加薪嗎?報告員,這個你也積極在關心,那這個部分工程會跟交通部我們會把它列管,列管之後我們每一部院。你沒有辦法加快速度嗎?"},{"start":10858.024,"end":10884.054,"text":"我們每一個月都來做檢討我們來協助台鐵公司來加快為了保留台南這個舊火車站整個鐵路地界化工程做了一個很重大的就當時工程設計就是以要保留這個火車站這個是1900年日本人開始蓋的比台北市火車站還早一年為了把它保留結果呢你為了把它整修搞成這樣子所以台鐵的這個"},{"start":10888.449,"end":10905.144,"text":"速度確實要加快我們到115年才要開始動工那也太久了已經圍滿久了對於台南的一些小朋友來講他的記憶可能火車站就是有圍籬的狀態這是不好的那你至少要現在把它弄得好看一點"},{"start":10906.745,"end":10931.433,"text":"進出要安全是不要像海上旅客在工地裡面進進出出是是這個部分我們現在也有在做有你走我們有配合那個台南那個設有有有台南設計展我們大概在10月中旬可以第二階段可以完成所以這個地方就有看出台北台北辦事情所以難怪"},{"start":10933.82,"end":10952.171,"text":"董事長、副董事長難怪你加個薪水大家就沒了難怪你要自己技功大家都罵了因為你也覺得我有一點政治敏感度好不好你台鐵現在搞這樣子你怎麼好意思加薪啊"},{"start":10953.474,"end":10979.604,"text":"報告委員 這個是 這個薪資齁 他們是由這個國營事業的董總 也就是主持人啦他的薪資標準下去評估我知道啦 這時間點不到對吧第一個啦 台鐵員工的薪資本來就偏低啦我舉雙鐵來做個比較啦高鐵的中位數啦 薪資中位數啦非儲管的薪資中位數是99萬"},{"start":10981.425,"end":11009.979,"text":"台鐵才68萬,薪水差30萬,年薪差了30萬再來,台鐵缺人,為什麼缺人?沒人要去啦你知道台鐵有招考部長你知道有好幾個項目是報考的人比需要應徵的人還少那幾乎可以全部都報名就入局了,你知道嗎?"},{"start":11011.53,"end":11026.594,"text":"而且海鐵目前的人力缺口多少?兩千多個?董事長你說明一下好不好?其實並沒有兩千多個跟委員報告我們今年度還要在第二次招募我們的招募含100個司機員是722人"},{"start":11038.61,"end":11048.878,"text":"會來嗎?會確定嗎?來,我再給你看台鐵,你看它的缺額公務、機務、電務缺額都兩位數缺額都10%以上然後台鐵有1055個人公事化以後有超過1000個1055人選擇領優退就離開了,不願意繼續待"},{"start":11066.277,"end":11073.401,"text":"然後台鐵的今年也預計有多少人要離職今年預計也有1288個人要離職這是媒體公布的資料"},{"start":11087.045,"end":11110.689,"text":"所以你去年公視化走了1055人今年還要再離開1288個人兩年啊台北就走了2300多個人你今年啊董事長都說要考台北每年都考啦台北沒有一年不考啊都沒人來啦那你甚至還有零入局的所謂零入局就是零報到啦"},{"start":11112.318,"end":11120.709,"text":"有錄取喔有通知你錄取喔恭喜你喔結果報導沒人來啦尤其在一個比較像東部那個地方啦"},{"start":11121.806,"end":11147.602,"text":"那你怎麼辦?所以我們這一次第二次招募的話我們針對東部跟技術的話我們會再來想辦法再來加強這不是我不會跟你講的啦你再看一下報員您這個資料齁這是2024年底統計那個齁這要容我回去再統計一下因為那個總計我引用媒體的報導啦週刊的報導啦週刊報導7月就報導了你也不澄清你現在說我講的不對蛤?"},{"start":11154.179,"end":11167.413,"text":"七月媒體就披露了你今年有1200多個人要離職再來同樣是交通部的國營事業請部長參考一下我們台鐵的離職率就是最高的"},{"start":11169.119,"end":11192.346,"text":"他跟郵政公司比一下郵政公司人流會掉啊以前覺得最辛苦的是港務公司台鐵比港務公司還嚴重啊台鐵今年上半年啊光目前離職就三百個人啊另外啊台鐵去年離職四百個人就是說他入企然後他受不了又離開了這個我是覺得喔"},{"start":11197.908,"end":11223.673,"text":"為什麼多年來這個是很長久的問題台鐵沒有辦法留住人才報告委員這兩方面我跟台鐵公司也在做商量跟討論兩方面要來處理一方面是公司的這個職場的文化那二方面其實是薪資的部分尤其是從業人員的薪資怎麼拉高怎麼會來努力因為新部長來我是讓你知道有這個狀況我希望部長要稍微督促一下另外"},{"start":11224.81,"end":11242.394,"text":"台鐵對旅客的服務我們來看一下你不用說跟高鐵比你跟捷運比台鐵現在花了3500萬台鐵財富已經不好了花了3500萬要來更新月台的資訊看板你看一下左邊月台顯示器你看它的顏色你看它的字體"},{"start":11248.936,"end":11276.977,"text":"他這個一更新啦花那麼多錢啦旅客一片罵聲啦然後很多民眾啦提出的批評我給部長參考一下啦他說這個字體啦都看不清楚啦你看一般都會用黑體字啦都對年長者比較友善就那個字比較容易辨識嘛你要注意看台題用這種字體還有他使用的顏色"},{"start":11278.617,"end":11304.6,"text":"保證你眼花撩亂還有許多搭乘者他習慣他是先看車種比如舉光號、志強號什麼號那你現在把大家習慣的用法改掉了你最前面列的是班次我請教很少人搭車會計班次的對不對部長那你回台中你坐高鐵都坐哪一個班次"},{"start":11305.602,"end":11333.482,"text":"我真的不知道不知道 哪有人去班次班次應該列在最後面啦這一定是習慣 一般人習慣幹嘛 時間嘛 班車時間嘛還有它的車種 有的人會挑車種 因為關係到票價啦價格不一樣嘛你來把班次寫最前面幹嘛所以顏色以外 字體以外 還有續期轉換的速度啦它中文是看5秒 英文停10秒"},{"start":11335.595,"end":11360.009,"text":"是到底看中文的多還是看英文的我發現很多旅客提供意見非常正確啊你開三千五百萬你還做到好沒報告委員這個我們會來改善好不好我們會來改善時間的關係啦我們希望台鐵已經公式化了那應該像一個公式化該有的效率和能力好不好好謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝董事長謝謝委員"},{"start":11365.373,"end":11386.259,"text":"好 謝謝林委員接下來有請徐富奎委員發言謝謝主席 有請我們陳部長跟我們航港局的葉局長好 陳部長葉局長"},{"start":11397.334,"end":11413.786,"text":"部長好、局長好、委員好。謝謝部長。部長一上任也很快的時間就先到我們屏東來關切我們高鐵南眼的一個進度。但是在這邊我要先跟部長提醒說,我們屏東我們有"},{"start":11416.708,"end":11433.074,"text":"陸海空的一個條件我們有兩個機場那也有東流線跟現在新園延浦到小琉球的一個航線那我們南北狹長112公里那我們整個公路系統有包含我們的平地有包含我們的山區還有離島的一個環境"},{"start":11434.855,"end":11439.399,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":11453.512,"end":11453.712,"text":"請部長答覆"},{"start":11468.972,"end":11486.641,"text":"報告委員那當然屏東的鄉親都非常的關心所以我一上任沒多久就到屏東去先看六塊錯的這個車站那這個部分是未來是雙鐵共購的一個車站那我們先讓屏東的鄉親知道說未來這個雙鐵共購的車站包含旁邊的都市計畫那個屏東縣政府都加速在進行"},{"start":11487.682,"end":11508.249,"text":"那這個部分先讓屏東的鄉親知道未來的這個高鐵應該會延伸到屏東這個沒有問題那另外針對委員其實您相當關心的屏南的這個快速道路的部分其實我們也都在做積極的討論跟研究我們希望說未來讓您的選區那邊的鄉親其實說實在話如果你從屏南要到"},{"start":11508.909,"end":11530.007,"text":"醫院去或者是要到比較北邊去那個長度非常的長那那個搭起車來大概都要到一個小時以上那當然花東的鄉親副委員也非常努力在爭取那他們時常提到就是說人命是無價的所以你在這個就醫的後送的部分其實希望速度快一點所以這個部分我們會再積極再努力來做"},{"start":11530.968,"end":11559.248,"text":"這裡一定要特別拜託部長因為我們現在到恆春半島只有唯一一個平俄公路所以我們很積極爭取所謂的一個平安快速道路還有包含我們的軌道建設的一個延伸性就是要去凸顯我們這樣的一個困境那部長我想先請教一下這次七月份的凱米颱風造成我們台灣有一艘的貨輪沉沒然後八艘擱淺那也有一些的船員死亡跟失聯"},{"start":11560.109,"end":11575.044,"text":"那這次颱風造成這樣大量的一個輪船的擱淺事件包含有三艘在屏東、三艘在台南、兩艘在高雄那目前我們交通部有掌握到這一相關的一個事故的原因嗎?報告委員"},{"start":11576.426,"end":11599.362,"text":"當時我們也有依照SOP就是開米颱風要來之前我們有依照SOP像這種次標準船我們就會請他駛離港區不要讓他在港區裡面那這一次是因為這個西南氣流非常的強大甚至其中有一艘八艘擱淺的裡面其中有一艘其實已經距離岸邊40公里差不多40公里的距離但因為這個西南氣流實在太強大所以還是把它吹到了岸邊來造成這個擱淺"},{"start":11600.843,"end":11628.007,"text":"那所以針對這個部分交通部當然有掌握航港局這邊也當然有掌握這個沒有問題那另外就是說對緊急的抽油的部分我們也都已經完成不要至少他雖然擱淺但至少我們不要讓油污去污染到我們的海岸這個部分我們有做緊急的處理那目前已經脫離了兩艘啦已經兩艘離開了但是我們還有六艘我們正在積極努力在做處理那我們也跟傳統的部分也積極要做配合"},{"start":11628.447,"end":11649.459,"text":"部長因為這些擱淺的船這個已經變成我們的觀光景點了大家都要打卡那尤其我自己我自己還到現場去看覺得很危險因為大家有的靠得很近拍照甚至我還聽說有人爬上去塗鴉的這實在是很危險那所以針對目前還在擱淺的這個船隻"},{"start":11650.519,"end":11676.577,"text":"我們也要求我們港務局應該要盡快的來做後續的一個處理。這個部分會積極處理。在年底之前全部都可以讓他脫離。對,另外針對目前還有一些擱淺的船隻,我知道昨天那個局長來的時候有特別提到有一艘在台南的一個船隻,它是登記在一個香港公司,但是這個航號已經解散多年,那變成我們即使開出了一個違規的一個罰單,"},{"start":11681.68,"end":11700.051,"text":"針對這樣的狀況我們後續怎麼處理我想一方面我們會看這個船公司在台灣的資產的部分我們會先去調查先處理那二方面我也會積極準備如果在國際上面有一些司法的動作需要做的話我們也會積極做準備那這個細節是不是請局長是"},{"start":11704.88,"end":11724.479,"text":"這艘船的船東是香港商我們這個採儲處已經透過盧委會已經兩度都轉請這個船東來開始採訪那另外一方面就是像剛剛部長所提的後續有必要我們會以國際訴訟的方式來追查這個船東的責任"},{"start":11726.741,"end":11750.189,"text":"目前綱要之急就是剛剛委員提到的部長剛剛有提到油已經抽完了我們現在就是避免船在沙岸上造成潛在的危險我們現在已經緊急委託廠商預計在50個工作天左右要來進行拆除我們10月20號會來決標50個工作天來完成這個拆除"},{"start":11754.93,"end":11764.956,"text":"所以這個部分我們會特別來加速那追查的部分我想我們還是會積極來追查來保障這個機關應有的權益"},{"start":11766.742,"end":11795.203,"text":"我想在這邊還是要再次提醒交通部因為我們現在的極端氣候南武岸剩下原本40公里就有扣的一個距離就事實上包含我們仿山也把我們一些養殖的一些管線整個都破壞掉了所以未來針對這個一個疏散或是入港的部分甚至後續採取部分也應該請交通部要做一個比較完善的一個處理機制這個我們會有一個更好的處理機制因為這個部分我們交通部管的是港"},{"start":11796.064,"end":11815.482,"text":"那我們請他離港之後的那個距離我們已經有跟海巡那邊有做討論有開過兩次的會已經開過兩次的會那未來我們也會劃設海域上面的警戒區那拜託海巡這邊協助讓這些船隻可以到達更安全的距離然後避免未來又影響到我們自己的海岸"},{"start":11816.621,"end":11837.498,"text":"另外針對我想剛剛我們有好幾位委員都提到這個行人地域這個事情那我想我們的行政團隊也做了非常的努力但是根據數據來顯示我們今年一到六月的行人事故死亡183人還是比去年同年增加了一個10人那尤其是車輛位移規定讓行人先行還有"},{"start":11837.858,"end":11850.908,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備"},{"start":11863.418,"end":11891.388,"text":"這個部分我們還是希望說減少事故的方面我剛剛有講過第一個部分我們要窮盡所有的工程的可能性我們在工程面做改善那另外一方面民眾的這個交通安全的教育的宣導要把交通安全這個概念跟觀念置入到所有的民眾的腦海裡面這個是最重要的其實要減少違規的話教育還是最重要的大家如果有守法守規的觀念的話基本上不太需要執法不太需要執法"},{"start":11892.148,"end":11912.756,"text":"那所以當大家觀念不足而我們又希望能夠讓一些人有警惕的時候執法那當然也是一個必要的手段不過那個平衡點的部分可能可以討論那這個部分因為執法面不是在交通部是內政部所管轄的那這個部分內政部應該也會做很妥適的這個安排平衡點他們會去抓"},{"start":11913.536,"end":11930.121,"text":"部長那因為我知道我們目前有盤點了全台灣799處的一個路口改善進度嘛但看起來6度的比例還是遠高於非6度那尤其屏東縣目前只有8條被列入這樣子一個改善的一個路段那我認為這樣的評估是"},{"start":11932.362,"end":11952.137,"text":"有問題的因為依我們屏東縣來講這個幅員遼闊那城鄉的差距又很大那真的這樣的狀況是不是有機會我們重新來盤點過那另外針對我們屏東縣政府的發報的部分確實也因為經費的不足所以造成有些危險路段發報也不容易這部分是不是請交通部也來主動來協助"},{"start":11953.138,"end":11979.225,"text":"如果可以的話這個發包的經費不足的部分我們盡量來協助因為我們所知道是只要他年底之前完工應該是中央政府會全額來補助所以經費上面應該問題不會這麼大但是如果屏東縣政府有需要協助的部分沒有問題我們就來我們主動來跟屏東縣政府瞭解那包含因為這個補助的部分不是只有交通部也有一大部分是國土署那我們會協同國土署一起來跟屏東縣政府來"},{"start":11979.885,"end":11996.82,"text":"目前我們掌握到是我們還有五個地方,包含潮州四個地方、東港一個地方,那這裡都是一個交通流量非常大的一個地方,是不是我們針對這部分來積極來協助一下我們?我們會跟內政部來配合,然後跟國土署來配合積極協助屏東縣政府,沒有問題。"},{"start":11997.781,"end":12011.532,"text":"最後一個我想墾丁的發展還有大鵬灣的觀光發展也是我們這個屏東縣的一個很重要的一個觀光的一個產業我想先請教一下部長大鵬灣的這個招標的計畫目前的進度為何?"},{"start":12015.215,"end":12033.633,"text":"當然我們積極在辦理整個大鵬灣的觀光對於整體的屏東來說實在非常重要所以我們希望在114年也就是明年的1月能夠評選出最優的申請人那我們希望在明年的2到5月之間用促參招商的這個議約跟簽約的部分我們來盡量讓他來完成"},{"start":12035.051,"end":12063.656,"text":"那另外針對肯定國家公園的問題那我也感謝我們內政部董政次這個禮拜有召集了我們相關的部會來協調但是我覺得開市會一定不會解決肯定的問題那後續包含我們的公路局也好觀光署也好還有相關的部會我們希望一起來共同努力肯定不能只是被污名化我們要讓肯定有更多一個新的亮點更多一個新的風貌然後呈現在國人的眼前那請我們相關的部會大家一起來努力謝謝"},{"start":12064.616,"end":12082.084,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我們一起努力好 謝謝許委員 接下來有請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":12090.55,"end":12095.543,"text":"主席、反省交通部陳部長、警政署李副署長"},{"start":12109.978,"end":12122.716,"text":"首先還是要恭喜部長稱為做內閣第二位交通部長那部長您9月2日就職以來至今23天了對交通部的業務都還熟悉嗎報告委員每一個局處該做簡報我都已經"},{"start":12124.238,"end":12146.788,"text":"理解過了 都理解過一輪了而且我也到地方上面去各個局處該看的地方我也都盡量去看過我們不是只有在辦公室聽簡報我們也是用行動管理的方式那另外也跟委員報告我們所屬的單位其實有相當多的工會那也有很多勞工的權益的問題那我到目前為止也已經拜訪過四個工會那理解說每個單位的員工的想法"},{"start":12147.328,"end":12174.312,"text":"部長雖然您過去的經歷與交通業務關係不大不過本席原來希望您將會是一位稱職的交通部長希望部長加油本席想就這次本次的專報題目就教部長幾個問題首先我們今年的9月5號部長您在道安記者會有針對那個道路安全有提出9月起加強執法增加見警率那隨後遭到基層員級批評官員拿不出良策需要警察背鍋"},{"start":12175.072,"end":12199.242,"text":"那隨後交通部門只有回應說提高見舉率主要是針對新增死亡較多的縣市不是所有的縣市都要強力大執法那這邊我想就叫我們的李副署長警政署的主管機關是誰執法的部門嗎警政署的主管機關主管就是交通組主管機關"},{"start":12201.391,"end":12202.652,"text":"跟委員報告其實早上有其他委員有問過這個問題"},{"start":12224.554,"end":12237.74,"text":"我覺得蠻可惜的因為針對交通安全的議題還有行人安全的議題我那天的論述其實相當的完整首先我希望能夠極盡可能的把工程改善的部分把它做好是你有提到科技執法的部分嗎部長有提到那我這邊想要問的是有開會討論過了嗎"},{"start":12240.261,"end":12264.118,"text":"這樣說好了,執法面確實不是交通部的夜館但記者的問題是說針對行人道安的部分因為我剛剛有講過行人的死亡率有佔40%是因為違規而違規的樣態我們希望能夠有執法面來嚇阻大家違規的這個想法所以我們當然會做這樣的建議但這樣的建議不代表交通部可以這麼做但我們會去跟警政單位跟內政部來溝通"},{"start":12264.938,"end":12289.52,"text":"那我們這邊有實際的執行計畫了嗎?有明確了嗎?執行計畫,警政署和交通部?這樣說好了,我們的聯繫匯報其實裡面都有講不過說實在話,因為警政署是內政部所管轄那由內政部他們來決定怎麼樣執法我們能夠講的只有一點,就是說加強執法的部分必須要做這是交通部可以給的建議,如此而已是,我這邊就叫我們的李副署長"},{"start":12291.225,"end":12297.44,"text":"警政署在交通執法的部分我們對於行人交通事故發生"},{"start":12306.465,"end":12330.632,"text":"警政署負責的部分就是交通執法的部分那我們在對於行人交通安全的部分我們對於就是對於重大交通違規的部分包括入口不停讓行人還有非號誌化入口未停車再開人行道違規停車這幾樣的重大違規沒關係鄉信部長鄉信部長提出見警率是為了要增強民眾對交通"},{"start":12331.252,"end":12338.135,"text":"指法面其實不是交通部能夠做的啦,我們只能建議那如果大家未來認為說指法面的建議交通部不需要多做,其實或許我們未來的這個建議會減少"},{"start":12355.083,"end":12371.713,"text":"我可以只有講工程面我們可以努力的部分,還有這個交通安全宣導的部分,我們來做指示。因為據實交通部的權責是軟硬體設施的監管,那包括像是交通動線,然後還有我們希望交通安全的通行環境。報告委員,就是因為全國的民眾跟我們"},{"start":12372.353,"end":12392.347,"text":"我們所有的這個委員都相當關心行人的安全那跟道路的安全那這個部分其實大家都很期許交通部能夠多做一些所以講得比較完整出發點是好那這邊也要就是提醒部長因為我們來看到我們內政部的資料顯示全國員警缺乏數不斷攀升我們可以看到從110年從3000"},{"start":12395.049,"end":12421.906,"text":"三千四百二十八人提高到一百一十二年的四千四百八十八人另外我們也看到犯罪案數也是逐年的攀升所以基層員警都已經不夠了可是犯罪案數也越來越高那基層員警他們在查緝案件的時候時間都不夠了要如果他們要為了提升您所您說的就是見警率去站入口的話那無疑是加重我們基層員警的工作負擔且壓縮其他的業務時間那部長還要繼續執行"},{"start":12425.088,"end":12453.065,"text":"報告委員,如果委員您認為說增加執法或者是增加見警率或增加員警們的工作負擔希望交通部未來不要再提這方面的建議沒有問題,我們未來不提只要委員認為說這些執法面不需要交通部來建議那我們就不要去建議由內政部他們自己去判斷說該怎麼再增加執法或者是加強執法面該怎麼做是,OK,好"},{"start":12456.647,"end":12477.031,"text":"部長我們這邊也看到我們造成上半年行人死亡的人數高於去年同期的死亡人數的責任那很多我們要想想真的都是地方政府的錯嗎?如果將全數的過錯推給地方政府那對地方政府是非常的不公平法規是交通部定的那責任也是我們常常看到交通部都推給地方那難道交通部沒有責任嗎?請部長說明"},{"start":12477.831,"end":12501.706,"text":"報告委員我剛剛有說過全國的民眾包含所有的委員對於交通的改善其實大家最期許的是交通部要更努力所以我們才會提出這麼多的建議但是交通部當然要負擔很大的責任但是中央跟地方是一體的因為說實在話民眾走在路上發生了這個安全事故上面的問題那個跟中央跟地方大家不會去分那個"},{"start":12502.566,"end":12522.419,"text":"我們重點是要讓他能夠達到安全的狀況我們看到就是針對機車免兩段式左轉取消進行機車還有大型重機車停車格的問題甚至是道路的設計還有標誌標線等問題那常常都會用因地之疑來回復民眾的質疑那本席就是在想交通部是不是要這樣的慣例是不是該廢除"},{"start":12525.117,"end":12541.793,"text":"其實標誌、標線跟號誌的指引中央只能夠訂立那個指引啦但實際上地方要怎麼去劃設停車格要怎麼去劃這些線是地方政府的權責那中央確實也沒有辦法去代替他們來做這樣子的工作這些是地方政府必須要去做的"},{"start":12542.85,"end":12561.936,"text":"那修法的部分要不要來做檢討修法的部分我們正在進行檢討當中這個部分其實委員也提供很多很好的建議那我們也都會納入那這個部分我們希望把整個修法面修得更完善然後讓交通更安全那接下來有請我們台鐵公司杜威董事長杜董事長"},{"start":12571.691,"end":12591.203,"text":"朱董事長好那朱董事長您有提到中修禮金是依照交通部所屬機關員工紀律還有表揚的要點嗎?發放那是依照公務人員紀律的辦法那紀律的辦法發放這獎勵不得以現金發放所以您所以現在目前我們台鐵的同仁有在反應那您和部長有討論了嗎?"},{"start":12593.884,"end":12618.455,"text":"有討論這個部分我們有討論我們交通部的部分也積極在協助協助台鐵公司來做這方面的處理我們知道說員工們的希望跟需求所以這個部分我也已經因為規定是在全序部那邊我已經跟全序部做聯繫如果有需要的話我會親自到全序部去跟他們做溝通不過法令上面的規定到底能不能完成這個不是交通部能夠在這邊決定的"},{"start":12621.078,"end":12631.778,"text":"是,那本席這邊也要提醒,勞動基準法第22條規定,工資之己付應,應以法定通用貨幣為之,那接下來要怎麼發放給我們的台鐵同仁?"},{"start":12633.451,"end":12651.208,"text":"您是說獎金嗎對獎金有獎金的規定有獎金的規定對獎金薪資不一樣那這邊我這邊有有我們基層的同仁反映說臺鐵員工據勞工的身份啊因以勞基法來發放獎金他臺鐵公司是不發現金非法人的問題是不是不想發"},{"start":12652.438,"end":12661.964,"text":"不會啦那個跟委員報告如果今天可以發現金是那我們為什麼還要再多花時間去申購禮券來發放給同仁"},{"start":12664.646,"end":12681.707,"text":"因為原則上公司花的錢都一樣他們也不希望再多一次的行政手續再去換成禮券他們也希望能夠發現金那現在是卡在法規上面的問題那這個部分我們交通部盡量來協助"},{"start":12682.904,"end":12699.034,"text":"是 那也希望就是部長那個針對我們那個見警率希望就是所以接下來提升見警率的部分我們交通部還會委員交代我以後就不會再講見警率甚至執法面的部分我們就請內政部他們來說明就可以了OK 好 謝謝部長 謝謝市長"},{"start":12710.88,"end":12737.178,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員接下來有請游昊委員發言謝謝張偉那有請部長"},{"start":12740.768,"end":12741.169,"text":"好,陳部長。"},{"start":12754.232,"end":12778.312,"text":"那也大家對於部長就任交通部長之後大家有許多的期待那其實再看今天交通部所屬許多的單位確實也很盡責的在昨天其實幾乎都在跟交通委員進行拜會所以大約超過八成現場的就是主管其實昨天都已經針對很多議題做討論"},{"start":12782.274,"end":12805.504,"text":"也知道部長是很有憧憬其實我想說要跟你更多的深入探討我跟我的辦公室就花了好長一段時間把你臉書所有的爬文都爬過了還有你以前把阿台中市議會提的三接院提的許多案子都大致上都看過了謝謝委員"},{"start":12806.084,"end":12820.2,"text":"那我想許多的重大的建設尤其是在交通我們交通委員所關心其實那時候你在陪同不管是蔡英文總統或是賴清德總統不管在競選期間其實你應該都了解他們的承諾是"},{"start":12821.101,"end":12840.329,"text":"那我是想要先直接先就教一下那在終結近南投的部分那是不是部長也可以向這個承諾這個是支持支持這個終結近南投的建設那同時是預估在什麼期間的時候是可以有一個完成或進度"},{"start":12841.193,"end":12865.756,"text":"我們這個臺中的這個捷運的部分我知道油耗委員一直非常關心能不能夠進去到南投縣因為目前我看南投草屯這邊的人口也越來越多在網內其實觀光的價值也非常的高那目前比較有可能是我們臺中的局縣臺中市的局縣那目前正在進行可行性的研究可行性研究那目前我們希望"},{"start":12867.394,"end":12883.682,"text":"對我們希望他能夠一方面其實台中市那邊的委員也在爭取能夠延伸到霧峰那如果假使到霧峰其實跨過去這個南投的草屯只差了一條溪跨過溪大概就到草屯了"},{"start":12884.022,"end":12910.499,"text":"所以距離並不遠那需求也應該有那這個部分我們會希望臺中市政府在可行性研究的內容裡面看可不可以來做這個研究我們來跟他們溝通看看那未來即便是短時間之內沒有辦法立刻延長到這個南投的話我們至少在軌道上面的建設我們先做一個微軌讓他預留未來可以延伸的可能性那如果這個部分做到我們繼續持續來努力所以部長是表態是全力支持"},{"start":12911.377,"end":12933.087,"text":"其實我覺得整個都會區的交通的便捷尤其是公共運輸的交通便捷是相當的重要那我也理解說草屯這邊的生活圈其實已經跟大台中的這個都市的生活圈大部分是併在一起了所以未來我相信這個需求會越來越高那如果越來越高的時候我們朝這個方向努力我是覺得是可以的真的是支持"},{"start":12934.634,"end":12954.556,"text":"我蠻支持的但是要看可行性研究的狀況怎麼做那大致上就是可行性評估以及包括後面劉佑就接南投的這個區塊的這個相關的報告以及相關的這個這條局限上的部分那在有勞交通部這邊能夠協調的都是政府南投省政府一定也是全力配合"},{"start":12955.257,"end":12968.194,"text":"是那今天的主要的重點在這個行人地域的部分那在2022年的這邊報導上來講那CNN來評論就是目前我國的交通路行人地域那這一則報導來講那部長你覺得公允嗎?"},{"start":12973.739,"end":12988.924,"text":"這樣的文字當然對台灣來講是一個非常大的傷害那不過我也必須要說的是台灣的這個交通的狀況確實是很多的民眾很擔憂我自己在路上也會覺得這個部分是應該要再更積極的加強跟檢討跟改進的部分"},{"start":12990.124,"end":13008.296,"text":"那我想就交交部長那像目前來講因為我知道你有準備了很多資料你覺得在任內一開始之後你覺得最主要要推的三件的一個重點是如何能夠盡速的來改善這個交通的這個問題"},{"start":13009.366,"end":13035.723,"text":"我想當時我上任之後大概第四天吧有這個交通安全的這個記者會我們每一週都召開那我大概過了上任之後四天每個月我都會召開一次那上任四天就召開了啦那當時的媒體的朋友也有問到這件事那我說的說法是這樣子我們先窮盡一切工程改善的可能性在工程面做改善道路的安全的部分那第二個"},{"start":13037.384,"end":13049.997,"text":"針對這個行人交通安全跟行車安全的這個觀念的教育跟宣導我們必須要多做一些那第三個因為我們看到這個造勢的樣態21%是因為車子沒有禮讓行人的違規19%是因為行人"},{"start":13054.682,"end":13079.781,"text":"沒有依照標線標誌穿越馬路所造成的違規那總共已經佔了四成是違規的樣態所以最後我還有提到的一個是所謂的執法面的部分那剛剛很多委員在關心其實我講的蠻完整的但很可惜的是媒體只標註了後面那一個那但是還有第四個項目就是說針對監理的手段我們應該要更積極來做包含考照的過程包含機車的這個駕訓班的部分的加強"},{"start":13082.623,"end":13096.693,"text":"這個都對未來的整個行人的安全也好或者是道路安全都有幫助的我們都要來努力好那我就直接就叫你們的宣導的部分那在目前來講在今年度總工交通部辦了多少次的相關的這種"},{"start":13097.774,"end":13100.075,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》"},{"start":13114.222,"end":13143.047,"text":"報告委員場次的部分你說細節我大概等一下再請相關單位跟您報告但是我必須要跟委員報告的是說我們針對樂齡中心或者是老人比較聚集的地方我們都有在做那另外其實比較多一點的是我們跟地方政府一起合作的包含新北市政府、台中市政府等等的很多地方政府其實我們都有合作在做這個宣導跟教育的工作那我們也都有補助經費給他們因為這個教育不是只有教育那個交通部來做就夠了"},{"start":13143.407,"end":13166.323,"text":"部長我就是打斷一下就是當然說我知道有心要做所以說這個交通部在輔助那我也希望本席希望能夠得到資料那不管是我們來提供給縣市政府以及說不管是在因為我們都議員出身啦那所以說在地方社區啊包括熱林中心啊或是各種社團級都有在跑那所以說有沒有配合"},{"start":13166.963,"end":13193.048,"text":"新市政府或警察局他們在宣導的話其實大致上我們都會遇到所以我想說那目前配合新市政府在今年度截至目前為止辦了多少場次以及未來預計過的話多少場次還有在哪些的面向包括是在學校還辦了多少場次因為交通部必須要完全掌握他才能夠針對這個宣導來去做一個全面甚至說在一些特別的案例還有像是我們看到這次的一個不幸的悲劇"},{"start":13194.228,"end":13220.654,"text":"所以說我們希望說在這種宣導上能夠持續加強因為工程的改善、執法等等相關都是大家都一定清楚的那我們再來看這個你曾經有提過一個在臉書上的文章全區盲點系統就是盲區內人渣主動警示系統列入公車評鑑項目這你應該也很懷念這是你那時候你推的那是我在議員任內的時候爭取希望能夠做到的"},{"start":13220.694,"end":13247.307,"text":"那我想請教一下那像你推動的這麼重要的一個雖然能夠列入評鑑那目前全國納入評鑑的一個情況如何?報告委員當時我是擔任議員所以我在爭取的是臺中市政府要將這些項目納入評鑑那當時臺中市政府有一些已經加進去了那現在全國各縣市政府全國各縣市政府目前為止我沒有掌握這些知道嗎?市長"},{"start":13248.728,"end":13268.704,"text":"根文報告就是說我們是透過供應的計畫有提供這個ADAS系統設備的一個這個補助那地方政府這個是他們小館的業者的需求可以提出這個計畫那向公眾來申請這個補助好那沒關係那我是希望說在過去您當議員期間的理念"},{"start":13269.444,"end":13284.116,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":13291.121,"end":13309.707,"text":"那再來的話我們看一下集集支線基礎建設那這個部分昨天董事長來的時候也有提到說希望能夠加快在集集支線的一個就是提早能夠完工因為目前集集水利確實因為這樣剛剛受到很大的影響那我想請教一下就是"},{"start":13311.087,"end":13332.738,"text":"呃...是不是讓這個...董事長簡單說一下目前完成的騎車遺跡希望能夠提早還在明年的年底還能夠盡快的完成因為那次剛好是部長要來會刊嘛對,我們上次有去看對,那希望下一次能夠有一個具體的一個成果能夠提早的時候那再由部長帶來禮物給地方好,沒問題,謝謝委員"},{"start":13334.44,"end":13348.717,"text":"讓董事長補充一下謝謝委員剛剛委員提到的我們集體支線的一個整修的計畫我們是預計在明年的年底來做一個恢復通車那這個現在都在進程上面我們會努力來進行"},{"start":13349.978,"end":13366.003,"text":"好 那太好了那我就想目前來講期程它是規劃在2026年那如果說到時候能夠確實能夠完成這個進度的時候我們再邀部長來地方上再來跟大家做一個會開說明是 我們希望能夠加速加強謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":13378.288,"end":13395.912,"text":"好 謝謝油漢委員好 接下來有請賴世寶委員發言謝謝主席以及各位先進有請陳部長好 陳部長"},{"start":13409.904,"end":13430.884,"text":"部長你早委員好這個交通部是很大的一個部他管的業務你知不知道我加一加大概有多少錢你知道嗎加一加多少錢對加一加多少錢管的業務有多大如果您所說的包括你的國營事業、地下的全部加起來"},{"start":13432.438,"end":13458.417,"text":"如果包含現在正在執行的工程當中的話加起來可能六、七千億以上上兆喔!你要認真看上兆喔!所屬的全部加起來上兆喔!很多業務喔!因為你接部長你說你年輕衝勁好你就要了解業務你知不知道請問你知不知道自由貿易港區是你管的"},{"start":13459.401,"end":13469.046,"text":"我知道你知道嗎我們現在就看這個事情了你知不知道現在在自由貿易港區到現在為止電子煙彈有2622匹加熱煙彈有25000多的千就是K是千"},{"start":13489.178,"end":13503.089,"text":"今年的3月就有很大的量9月就越來越多部長啊聽我講好啊你先不聊的話先不要聽人你聽清楚喔你們現在一來按照關稅法你們全部都不懂解釋關稅法15條這是違禁品"},{"start":13514.443,"end":13532.581,"text":"四、好那為什麼給他進來呢從我上一次在陳建仁當院長的時候我就執行這個事情結果越來越多越來越多你看關務署是什麼關務署說了關務署財政部的國務署財政部的"},{"start":13533.302,"end":13548.657,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":13551.18,"end":13566.123,"text":"輸入的一個物品很明顯的這是違禁品你告訴我為什麼這麼多越來越多報告委員關務署的說法沒有錯不得進口而且禁止輸入這個是一定的這個它是違禁品"},{"start":13566.763,"end":13581.991,"text":"這很確認沒有問題所以目前的這個自由貿易港區的部分我們有詢問過衛福部衛福部他們有表示說峽管之指定的煙品包含加熱煙他必須要的組合的元件目前可以運到"},{"start":13583.132,"end":13583.692,"text":"你這個講法太年輕太嫩的講法"},{"start":13611.269,"end":13614.031,"text":"這為什麼放一堆加熱鹽電子在這裡就等著我們這個法要通過他要進來台灣啦你這個轉口出去的請問如果按照你這樣講他們這樣講可以接受的話那請問你我這裡面可以不可以放這個麻煩可不可以"},{"start":13628.599,"end":13629.38,"text":"應該是因為健康的因素吧"},{"start":13648.089,"end":13664.065,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":13670.638,"end":13689.734,"text":"衛福部是想說你可以申請但是到現在為止沒有准一件一件都沒有所以假熱菸跟電子菸來講基本上就是大家會擔心從這個特別是電子菸電子菸其實就是從化學物在那裡這裡面很容易有"},{"start":13690.655,"end":13711.031,"text":"我剛提到的有大麻有一些現在最少是二級毒品的一個萃取物在裡面這個對健康是很大的傷害的那如果這樣子的話那某種程度它就是毒品啊如果這樣子當然電子煙不等於毒品啊加熱煙也不等於毒品可是為什麼禁它"},{"start":13711.992,"end":13714.214,"text":"自貿區松散造成犯罪分子的濫用自貿區松散造成犯罪分子的濫用從現在來看就這個現象"},{"start":13741.786,"end":13753.503,"text":"他是違禁品他是違禁品他是違禁品我就請問部長是你告訴我一個時間表可以嗎什麼時候把它清出去可不可以"},{"start":13754.989,"end":13780.004,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們是那個地方是除放的不能進來這個部分的原則我們一定完全把握所以您這邊的數據他的庫存一直在增加增加表示沒有出去啦我們不會讓他出去有出去啦有啦有啦我們一定不會讓他出去那這個部分有出去啦有出去啦報告委員我們會配合關務署有進來有出去都有啦我們會配合關務署您剛剛的提醒我聽到你有時間不要管什麼要解決啊"},{"start":13782.325,"end":13787.953,"text":"我們用最快的速度跟衛福部還有關務署我們來協商因為您剛剛所提示到的有可能會有毒品的問題所以我們盡快在兩個月之內我們找他們來協調這個問題"},{"start":13799.288,"end":13815.403,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":13823.17,"end":13850.82,"text":"你看喔今年來台旅客目標一千兩百萬人次王國才部長和陸客能來今年二月份講的結果目標是一千兩百萬結果到現在為止我們就六百多今年根本就到不到一千萬了這個主要原因現在你要選後目標要下修到一千萬人次而且我們的機場的"},{"start":13853.538,"end":13880.066,"text":"這個我突然忘了放了我們那個漏水漏得很厲害 機場什麼時候可以改善報告 報告委員機場的改善我們一直持續在做那因為過去的機場很多的設置都希望能夠有採光所以做了大量的玻璃帷幕那現在因為極端氣候兩個部分一個部分是說天氣特別熱所以上面玻璃跟玻璃的銜接會有一些SILICONE會老化你看喔 因為時間到了不要當太多時間"},{"start":13883.267,"end":13898.652,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":13903.026,"end":13923.538,"text":"我就請教你啦 最後請你給我一個答案今年一千萬人次能不能達到 是不是確定 不能達到我們的目標是一千萬人次 到目前為止差不多五百多萬 接近六百萬左右那這個部分我們繼續在 還到啦 剩三個月而已啊跟委員報告 當然壓力很大 但是前線的同仁還在努力當中路客是不是 很關鍵"},{"start":13926.339,"end":13945.007,"text":"陸客是關鍵但我一直希望陸客能夠來不過現在是中國方面也就是說中國的政府正在限制他們陸客來台的部分另外我們也很希望他們能夠開放我們的桃吉在全球百大機場排名66名你知道我們台灣的經貿實力全世界排第幾你知道嗎16到18左右我們的經貿實力16到18結果我們的機場是66還是進步了上一次是80幾"},{"start":13956.571,"end":13975.845,"text":"這個東西很丟臉啦!所以觀光客要多,所以我們積極來努力爭取海外的方法。部長,這個很丟臉啦!你們告訴我,在你任內...我們展開雙手歡迎顧客來台。我問你,什麼時候可以讓我們的淘機的排名跟經貿的實力一樣,20名內有沒有可能?"},{"start":13976.468,"end":13988.054,"text":"有可能但是要大家一起來努力大家一起來努力你要說現在66我們會往前拉在我任內一定會讓他進步一定會讓他進步謝謝委員謝謝賴司馬委員那也希望交通部協調陸委會積極作為謝謝那接著有請鄭天才委員"},{"start":14054.124,"end":14054.864,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長"},{"start":14064.754,"end":14084.731,"text":"部長好委員好恭喜部長我先從台灣十大建設來講1974年那時候你還沒出生我1977年台灣十大建設其中一個就是北迴鐵路"},{"start":14086.601,"end":14108.576,"text":"在那時候的經濟不是那麼好但是當時的政府蔣經國總統沒有忘記花東的重大建設北迴鐵路北迴鐵路1979年那已經出生了1979年完工前線通車在1980年前線通車"},{"start":14113.79,"end":14140.275,"text":"總共這個到現在已經四十多年了新建的騎乘五年多王宮到現在四十多年這個北回鐵路因為我那時候這個王宮的時候已經這個正好大學畢業所以我是華聯的所以常常會很期待常常做這四十多年來"},{"start":14142.171,"end":14168.087,"text":"這四十多年來無論再怎麼大的地震再怎麼樣大的颱風、豪雨這四十多年來都沒有怎麼樣那這一次0403地震因為這個一震0403大地震的當天北迴鐵路也都沒有怎麼樣非常好但是因為這一次"},{"start":14169.818,"end":14195.886,"text":"移證特別特別的多到現在都還在證到5月10號的時候移證是1396次到8月16號移證是1653次也就是因為移證特別多所以整個山整個山的土石鬆動所以一下大雨"},{"start":14196.943,"end":14217.47,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。六、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":14225.101,"end":14253.667,"text":"這個就是現在從德到和倫之間的一個現況所以我們必須要去解決這個部分所以這個部分蘇花安還有台鐵的這個相關的這些改善你們有沒有一個方向報告委員蘇花安的部分我們現在都積極在規劃這個部分本來就是既定的政策也正在進行當中這個部分會更加快的來進行"},{"start":14254.887,"end":14281.252,"text":"那針對鐵路的部分委員您剛剛上一張照片有秀到其實它那個隧石是從上面差不多一千多公尺下來那這個部分在下面做防置我們只能積極地用人工的方式或者是說用工程的方式讓那些土石下來可以趕快流出去這個部分我們積極在做那另外就是說比較中期來看的話鐵路方面做明隧道大概是中期的規劃不過要坦白跟委員報告因為人定不一定能夠勝天"},{"start":14283.232,"end":14303.946,"text":"這個大自然的力量實在是太大了所以讓我們不得不考慮就是說從德道河仁的這一段這一段的鐵道我們也有可能長期要規劃一個改道的可能性那我們目前正在做討論當中因為對花蓮人來講也好或者對東部人來講也好這個北回的鐵路回家的安全的道路實在是太重要了"},{"start":14304.346,"end":14323.733,"text":"所以這個部分我們也會做短期目前的安全很重要要先處理那中期民隧道的部分也是要處理他的安全問題那長期來看做改道或許是一個會更安全的方式那短中長期我們都來努力好部長齁這個我剛才為什麼要先從北回鐵路開始講是"},{"start":14325.154,"end":14327.496,"text":"現在以現在的工程技術、科技的發達"},{"start":14350.853,"end":14378.79,"text":"絕對可以解決這些問題所以這個部分要去加油報告委這一段我相當理解因為我已經去三次了那個地方我去看三次你也去了很多次蘇花安剛提到了蘇花安我們先看這個蘇花安這個整個環評還有部落的諮商同意都OK了但是現在說要121年才會完工通車我來做比較"},{"start":14380.477,"end":14402.227,"text":"蘇發安就是針對蘇發改還沒有做的部分東澳到南澳、和平到和中、和人到崇德我們來做比較蘇發改民國97年11月10號行政院核定可行性研究之後100年1月29號就動工了只有這麼短的時間兩年兩個月就動工了"},{"start":14408.212,"end":14422.365,"text":"一零九一二六號前線通車你看我們看蘇阿安一百零八年十二月二十號行政院核定可行性研究到現在已經四年十個月了"},{"start":14423.246,"end":14437.125,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":14440.414,"end":14468.633,"text":"報告委員我們目前正在做細部設計也準備要跟行政院來爭取預算因為綜合規劃已經都結束了所以我們現在等環評通過之後環評也已經過了那現在正在爭取預算的過程當中那只要爭取到預算我們就馬上會來做動工的所以預算是非常重要所以拜託委員支持要加油不是不是我們絕對是全力支持我翻了整個預算書沒有啊"},{"start":14469.571,"end":14494.688,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":14501.407,"end":14524.529,"text":"臺鐵這個特考這個你在事後再提供這個第一個原住民報考的人數這一次然後已經放榜了嘛然後原住民入企的人數提供書面資料好不好好好好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝鄭經常委員那接著我們請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":14547.389,"end":14567.567,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請我們交通部陳部長請陳部長好 陳部長 你看 這個部長開學了開學第一天 到目前為止心情怎麼樣"},{"start":14568.98,"end":14588.221,"text":"雖然今天是委員給我的開學日但其實我來內閣已經從520到現在已經一百多天了所以先行都一樣就積極努力交通委員會第一次來到這裡被選來是非常正式的那因為我特別看到雖然你過去沒有在交通方面的一個專業"},{"start":14589.542,"end":14605.274,"text":"但為你也許了三個月嘛其中一個是用心學習啦齁那想一個用心的學習的學生每一天做夢都在想可不可以明天就開學所以我完成你這個夢立法院趕快開學可是為什麼齁"},{"start":14606.355,"end":14634.971,"text":"為什麼到底發生什麼事啊是你交代了嗎昨天我們行程出來之後我接到市主人嘛要求學校不准今天開學是你有交代公關說一定要把今天的開學日把它滅掉嗎還是我有接到委員的電話說建議今天不適合開學因為黃道吉日不太對最後可怕是外面的專家學的教授也"},{"start":14636.291,"end":14639.154,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》"},{"start":14651.892,"end":14671.265,"text":"我有跟委員報告過說如果可以的話跟其他的委員會大概同樣時間會比較好因為昨天發開會通知對我們來講確實不到24個小時決定要開會我相信也很多委員的助理們要準備質詢的內容有點辛苦是委員叫你們的公關來講的"},{"start":14672.862,"end":14699.958,"text":"我懂我懂沒有沒有沒有不是我不是這個意思好啦我只是真的說一說啦其實講真的今天溝通一個議程啦都是交通很多領域在休會期間很多民眾關心的議題啦然後第二個呢因為剛剛我也說了那在整個休會的過程中新部長上任只有您一位嘛我們趕快一定要比其他的委員會早點開學啦我昨天也有講說要得勤學獎我們一起得勤學獎對好"},{"start":14702.3,"end":14722.534,"text":"我們這一堆人要變你的學伴你要快點學習事實上剛剛第一位發言的也是過去你的這個算是老師我們蔡局長副院長那事實上我感覺你是抱著一個我們要好好用心學習然後我對於已經專業我要尊重專業"},{"start":14724.079,"end":14747.219,"text":"我們會認真做你的一個管理可是我們發覺在很多上面你過去真的沒有經驗那在交通部長其實很多民眾的一個期待是希望能夠有一些遠見因為在交通的領域不管從政策、工具很多面向發展太快了太快了那我們覺得要有遠見就是說你已經具備了一些交通領域的一個專業比較"},{"start":14749.281,"end":14770.504,"text":"有機會去推演他一些發展這是很多人一個期待當然我們希望你能夠學習快一點在我過去早期就業的時候其實我跟你的心理某個部分也一樣所以每次看到那個要就業的時候都一定講說我要應徵一個新的職務我大學畢業"},{"start":14771.789,"end":14796.844,"text":"那你是告訴我你要有三年經驗我就沒有三年經驗你不給我機會我怎麼會有這個經驗可是這僅止於應徵在基層的員工跟基層的幹部像你現在直接應徵進來的是一個部長加大越大所以我真的是希望說你在學習的過程你能夠速度要快一點"},{"start":14797.825,"end":14820.73,"text":"你知道台積電是台灣的護國神山嘛對不對事實上也很我是覺得台積電已經不可否認變成我們國力的一部分喔在很多地方都展現了甚至先進的國家大家搶著要台積電我相信啊不光是張忠謀董事長一個人的一個能量他一定要有這樣的一個遠見"},{"start":14822.267,"end":14849.57,"text":"你知道嗎我覺得他帶了一些人人對了這個企業的方向大概就成功了八成你覺得對不對我認為是對的對那你知道嗎張總某董事長他在應徵人他有一個死穴他的死穴是說如果有人跟我說一句話面試直接淘汰啊就是說在這間公司有很多學習的機會"},{"start":14850.931,"end":14871.261,"text":"所以這就直接淘汰他邏輯很簡單啦因為現在科技也在打仗嘛大家都需要集戰力我願意把這句話真的送給你啦事實上在交通部他是一個非常明顯有太多重大建設這個的部分在推動的這個部分你大概需要多少的學習時間呢請說"},{"start":14874.325,"end":14900.233,"text":"您在交通委員會也相當久的時間您應該也很清楚整個交通部的業務跨得非常的廣光是鐵路有鐵路一般的鐵路高鐵跟捷運光是公路有一般的公路還有道路安全的問題還有高速公路然後我們還有跨到了氣象還有跨到了觀光還有跨到了航空還有跨到了航港就是港那港的部分有硬體建設也有船舶的管理"},{"start":14901.033,"end":14928.615,"text":"其實跨的面向相當的大我相信過去到現在為止雖然說我之前有提過一個數據有差不多15位部長不是本科系畢業的那另外一件事是我剛才說過他跨的領域這麼大的狀況底下有任何一個部長不需要學習嗎我相信每一位部長都很努力在學習其實我拜訪過好幾位前部長他們都跟我說他們剛來的時候前三個月每個晚上在上課每個晚上在看資料"},{"start":14929.215,"end":14958.022,"text":"每一個部長都要積極努力的學習那這個部分我也會努力但我要跟委員報告您剛剛所說的那三點是我被公布說發布說要來接這個單位的時候我所說的但是我很清楚委員您的交代也很清楚我也知道一上任就要是集戰力所以到現在為止今天的質詢到目前大家委員給我的指教我都吸收以外就是我們能夠做處置的部分如果有哪裡做得不好我也好希望委員給我指教跟指導好"},{"start":14959.182,"end":14981.102,"text":"這個部長其實對我們來講這是你剛剛講說你的一個想法那其實對我們的想法我們覺得說真的有幾分無奈了因為新的政府這個上任之後我們一個半月的時間好不容易跟前任部長磨合了把地方要做的事情好不容易講清楚了花了很多的精神我們要重新開始所以我們也要"},{"start":14981.883,"end":15007.584,"text":"沒什麼耐心啊所以你要學快一點那很多委員都提到了這個行人死傷也是很多的一個團體在關心的我們法規上路了大家覺得按照道理很多的一個相對的法規上路了而且包括了從總統到行政院到交通部甚至相關的一個單位都在做軟硬挺的一個努力過程中但在112年年底看這個數字還是增加"},{"start":15008.385,"end":15035.91,"text":"那最近在東海大學發生這個憾事我想就請教一下我看到部長你有發言我請教一下你對這個案子這個我只想問兩件事這一台公車到底有沒有裝這個ADAS就是先進的駕駛輔助系統他到底這台車有沒有裝其中六個面向盲點偵測他到底有沒有"},{"start":15037.092,"end":15062.131,"text":"還是第二個是他有裝再來是正常的嗎還是壞掉了因為駕駛最後的說法是說我不知道是真的還假的天氣太暗當然因為有時候駕駛的路況真的是不一定那我在想這件事情部長有沒有去了解這台車到底有沒有盲點監測系統裝在車上是可用的嗎"},{"start":15062.871,"end":15068.183,"text":"報告委員您剛剛所說的這個ADAS的部分我們得到的訊息是有裝的是有裝的"},{"start":15069.224,"end":15073.447,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》"},{"start":15099.424,"end":15127.972,"text":"麻煩去了解一下我目前強制的是盲點的這個影像的部分這個確定是有的這個沒有問題確定是有的那當下其實主要是司機他可能沒有去理會或者是沒有去看那個東西那第二他其實該停等的這個動作這是強制的有罰則的停等的這個動作他沒有做不是你那個盲點偵測系統將一般的轎車事實上都會叫的我不知道那是什麼狀況我建議你們要去了解好不好"},{"start":15129.281,"end":15130.464,"text":"以死亡人數來做一個分析"},{"start":15138.254,"end":15161.288,"text":"那這個部分就像剛剛部長你也有看過這相關的一些資料在警政署各個分局統計啊那到底發生這樣的一個死亡他想辦法去歸類在歸因在駕駛端有29類的原因在行人端有分成7類的原因然後呢在112年8月到113年6月因為我們要資料的時候只有統計11個月"},{"start":15163.449,"end":15178.637,"text":"總共343人行人因為交通事故死亡我們看了一下駕駛端242大概佔7成主要是因為駕駛因素第二個行人端30%那我們來看"},{"start":15181.498,"end":15205.68,"text":"趙英的排名就像你剛剛有說的有說的第一個是主要駕駛端沒有在斑馬線先暫停讓路人先行第二名是行人行人部分他可能不看號誌或者沒有走標線穿越馬路第三個也是駕駛端不管是分心、恍神等等的因為我們的交通部"},{"start":15207.181,"end":15230.353,"text":"從交通的政策、相關的一些規劃、教育甚至對於駕駛人車輛的一個監管都是你們那在教育的部分你們有沒有嘗試的針對於駕駛端、行人端分別要在哪個地方投入這個教育比較有效麻煩你說一下有這個部分其實我們投入相當多的努力"},{"start":15230.973,"end":15257.003,"text":"那不過這個部分不是只有交通部要做我們也跟地方政府一起合作包含一些經費的補助上面我們在做行人的這個交通安全的這個宣導的部分尤其委員在關心的駕駛端的部分我們該做的網路宣傳也都有做那不過我覺得大家希望再做得更好所以這個部分的力道我們在明年度會再更加強好最後我特別看到你今年2月7號"},{"start":15258.629,"end":15283.455,"text":"很疲憊地回到了台中什麼叫腰痠背痛就是說準備回家過年回家過年從台北出發到台中開了整整四個小時因為那時候還不是交通部長然後疲勞之外加上許多的腰痠背痛返鄉過年塞車的洗禮回家真有一種儀式感這個部長這個"},{"start":15288.018,"end":15303.495,"text":"因為我們這次有談到 其實過年我們的連假可能是這個車潮最多的那我們發覺上次中秋假期 台鐵也好他發覺奇怪 比去年三天的連假完全連在一起的"},{"start":15304.366,"end":15329.693,"text":"跟今年度有分開一天他的乘坐他們的人潮大概不管是返鄉來來去去的人潮多了9%所以我今天提出這個題目是說現在因為有些不連了嘛大家不要補休那有一些這個假期是在五六之前像中舊節是在禮拜二那這種這個部分我覺得真的有點不同形態他是兩波回家"},{"start":15330.493,"end":15349.387,"text":"或者短假期他在區域中間跑,你們有沒有做一個分析?跟委員報告,因為前一陣子才有一次的經驗,也就是中秋節,他中間也是隔一天,所以我當時也有交代我們的所屬單位,我當時在討論疏運的時候,我跟他們說這是一個變形的假期,第一我們先把它做成四天連假的規劃,"},{"start":15350.328,"end":15372.119,"text":"那鐵路的部分更特殊他們可能要前面再加一天後面再加一天因為他們速度相對快一點所以可能要延伸到六天那這是第一點第二點是說更重要的是應變因為我們對於民眾到底他有沒有請假這個比例其實不一定抓得準那我們目前有幾個數據我有拜託我們同仁一定要做就是第一我們先看這個訂房率"},{"start":15372.739,"end":15376.801,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":15398.109,"end":15409.077,"text":"那因為時間的關係,今天我們的詢答就到這裡,謝謝謝謝委員指教謝謝魯明哲委員那接著請王宏威委員發言好,謝謝主席,我請我們陳部長那有請陳部長"},{"start":15430.68,"end":15438.942,"text":"好,部長辛苦了部長請問一下,按照交通部的組織法在交通部轄下的二級單位有哪些?二級單位嗎?對,交通部所屬的二級單位公路局、鐵道局然後觀光署、氣象署高工局還有嗎?港務以及民航"},{"start":15460.575,"end":15490.047,"text":"港港局民航局對對不對對我這是放水題啊因為他們都坐在下面好謝謝委員好再來請問一下交通部所屬的公司組織有哪些其實非常多講啊好台鐵、中華郵政也都是屬於我們這邊的然後港灣公司、陶基公司也都是我們這邊的對很多還有嗎"},{"start":15491.409,"end":15495.253,"text":"交通部除了自己所屬的直接百分之百持股的公司,還有很多轉投資公司,這也都是交通部的投資有哪些?"},{"start":15513.969,"end":15541.925,"text":"中華電線是我們的所屬轉投資然後這個高鐵公司也應該屬於我們的轉投資的部分還有嗎?世西工程嗎?世西應該也是我們轉投資的還有嗎?因為這些單位他們比較沒有來其實我們非常非常多阿法人也非常多就公司阿公司組織阿"},{"start":15542.728,"end":15558.476,"text":"公司也非常多,法人也非常多。非常多,阿龍回答的非常多。來,告訴你一下,這個過去都有報告啦,陽明海運、臺灣行業、淘琴,包含臺北的那個捷運公司,中華電信、臺灣高鐵,剛才有6個裡面答對2題。"},{"start":15564.279,"end":15589.638,"text":"所以其實交通部所屬的單位非常非常多我剛才前面兩天我根本放水鐵因為他們都在下面大家應該微笑你們也在幫部長緊張對不對我為什麼要提這個事情就是交通部的所屬業務非常重要而且是民生我想今天很多人關心有關於行人交通安全的部分那我更關心我們在交通部不管所屬"},{"start":15590.979,"end":15603.762,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":15611.57,"end":15633.845,"text":"怎麼樣由轉輝為營這個是交通部跟台鐵的一個非常重大的課題可是啊在這過程裡面在工會質疑我們台鐵懂做自肥也就是因為加薪然後幫自己有那個記大功這件事情請問"},{"start":15635.848,"end":15659.634,"text":"部長上任之後有沒有瞭解這件事情到底怎麼回事?是,報告委員加薪的部分是這個樣子因為他113年的1月1號他公司化了那公司化之後他的給薪方式跟過去的台鐵局當然是不一樣所以他要比照國營事業嗎?他那個水準是對對對就是比照國營事業的組織的薪級這就是董事長說我不是啊我是因為你要比照國營事業"},{"start":15661.36,"end":15688.831,"text":"因為他現在真的是公司化了那我現在呢我就必須幫台鐵的員工來講話如果台鐵公司的董事長應該比照國營事業但是這個我都已經直接給你看了部長你知道嗎我們台鐵他轉換為國營事業之後他的薪資員工薪資是所有國營事業最低的"},{"start":15690.177,"end":15710.869,"text":"所以董事長要比照,部長請問一下,那麼台鐵的基層員工該不該比照呢?我認為應該要比照,應該要比照。太好了,所以沒有錯,我們在之前有幾位委員都談到就是現在台鐵有缺工的問題,事實上在之前傳出切2000人,那剛剛講說"},{"start":15713.09,"end":15728.958,"text":"沒有圈那麼多人,圈一百人因為我們有招考但是你知道台鐵的問題是招考了之後很多人不來報到因為他可能有更好的工作或者他來報到之後當他又報考到其他的一些國營事業他第一個選擇誰?"},{"start":15730.259,"end":15750.841,"text":"他立刻跑掉所以他就一直處於缺工的狀態所以部長在這邊可以承諾台鐵的基層員工可以比照董事長一樣的要比照其他的國營事業至少比照你交通部的其他國營事業要全體一致來加薪可不可以"},{"start":15751.281,"end":15774.063,"text":"報告委員我認為臺鐵的員工的薪資確實要加高一些那包含從業人員我覺得這個是首先要處理的因為目前為止看起來從業人員的薪資是相對是低一些天低那這個部分我們正在努力當中那目前整個計畫跟規劃都有了那我們針對細節再來做溝通我希望你能夠承諾幫"},{"start":15775.504,"end":15781.37,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》"},{"start":15792.981,"end":15819.301,"text":"有關於交通部不管所屬的事業或者是轉投資事業都出現了董事長自肥的爭議這裡面包含台灣高鐵這裡面還包括陽明海運而且都出現零去秋波陽明海運董事長已經離開了他在離開之前然後為自己加薪然後台灣高鐵董事長因為現在還坐在位置上"},{"start":15819.921,"end":15836.523,"text":"但是呢因為他時間久了外界也在推測因為現在慢慢國運事業在換搞不好就換到我們台灣高鐵不曉得什麼時間所以在零去秋波可能換人的狀況之下這個時候為董事長加薪"},{"start":15837.564,"end":15862.633,"text":"這是不適當的當然這個都是發生在你來交通部之前所以我也請部長能夠針對我們轉投資事業也好我們所屬的事業也好當董事長加薪的時候部長不能說哎呀這是公私治理啊如果員工引起這麼大的反彈他加薪到底合不合理還有真的不要變成好像變成他的一個畢業禮物"},{"start":15864.574,"end":15876.946,"text":"這個我覺得是對員工來講很難接受的好不好報告委員這個部分交通部一定會嚴審那我的原則是基層優先加薪好所以我在台鐵的部分就拜託你好不好好謝謝好謝謝王委員"},{"start":15886.187,"end":15898.605,"text":"這個因為現在快接近一點那我先請教一下陳部長陳部長還有我們這個內政部我們次長、董事長這個你們要休息吃便當嗎?"},{"start":15901.581,"end":15901.921,"text":"黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":15942.301,"end":15945.251,"text":"二、謝謝主席。十一時麻煩有請交通部陳部長。好,請陳部長。"},{"start":15959.109,"end":15981.482,"text":"創新智慧大概從我們民進黨政府過去幾年來一直在強大的招牌創新跟智慧創新行動過去的這八年我們交通部推展的ITS的計畫過去這八年投入多少預算報告委員我現在手上沒有資料可以提供給我嗎"},{"start":15983.206,"end":16009.616,"text":"來你先說明一下ITS現在目前推動的進度如何委員可以跟我指教你知不知道什麼是ITS委員你可以跟我指教智慧交通的運輸吧是嗎我們發展智慧運輸目前政府已經投入了72億投入了72億大家都在問"},{"start":16012.008,"end":16019.979,"text":"到2024年的計畫第一期四年30億第二期四年到2024年42.87億總共投入了72億投入了72億搞的ITS計畫目前的成效是什麼請部長"},{"start":16029.153,"end":16057.498,"text":"是 報告委員當然各部分都在進步當中啦好 但是自駕的部分您上面寫的自駕的部分那個是Part 2啦先回答Part 1的問題啦IPS計畫投入了72億目前的成效是什麼具體的成效講三點來聽就好了啦講智慧講創新我們大家都同意嘛72億丟下去具體的成效不用太多"},{"start":16059.888,"end":16086.205,"text":"隨便講舉相出來聽就好了各位媛媛報告就是針對這個ICS的一個這個計畫的部分的話到目前就所了解的部分第一個部分就是在就是有些特定場域包括這個淡海市政區那個淡海新市政那邊有一些這個交控的這個試驗的一個場域那另外另外一個部分的話就是有關於這個就是自駕這個無人煞車的部分跟這個經營部"},{"start":16088.387,"end":16113.107,"text":"進入經濟部這個核准的16個一個試驗計畫那交通部這邊也有這個參與這個補助那第三個部分的話大概就是說我先聽一下啦講到這裡啊我不知道你自己會不會覺得心虛啊丟了72億下去喔我開放式的問題啊讓你可以自己Promote講得這麼虛無你剛剛提到滯降"},{"start":16114.542,"end":16143.442,"text":"自駕巴士國家隊的口號什麼時候打出來的什麼時候打出來這個口號部長知不知道委員請指教你什麼都要我指教奇怪是你是部長還是我是部長我問你ITS你也要我指教自駕巴士國家隊你也要我指教這個都是民脂民膏欸人民砸下去的錢欸交通部有這麼多的建設不可能每一個時間點我在這邊背給您聽"},{"start":16144.775,"end":16159.122,"text":"我沒有!要你背給我聽喔!你連資本上面的ITS是什麼都搞不清楚耶!沒有關係啦!我換一個比較簡單的題目啦!自家巴士國家隊目前進度如何?"},{"start":16162.651,"end":16189.602,"text":"市長可以幫忙回答嗎跟委員報告一下這個自駕巴士的部分的話第一道程序就是要經這個經濟部核准在這個沙盒實驗裡面去做這個實驗那所以現在多少業者走出了沙盒跟這個委員報告據我所了解的一個這個部分總共有16個計畫案那其中有10個是有關於這個大客車的部分那目前只剩下這一個兩岸一個是這一個台積電"},{"start":16190.282,"end":16201.551,"text":"所以有多少業者走出了沙盒跟我報告就是說大概剩兩個案子其他的都已經目前都離開了這個沙盒是結束還是離開沙盒是計畫這個就是在沙盒計畫已經這一個結束"},{"start":16207.156,"end":16234.017,"text":"那結束了以後然後呢那結束了這部分我跟各位報告據我所瞭解因為參與這個就是沙盒計畫裡面有系統業者有車輛業者的部分那這個相關系統業者開發的部分就是包括這些ADAS先進的一個這個部分的話他們也要轉向到這個做單品的一個這個這個產品那另外一個部分就是系統面的這些東西他們也在跟車"},{"start":16234.737,"end":16260.146,"text":"沒關係啊,我再具體的問齁,你們目前估計大概還要多久可以上路?跟我們報告,如果說這個是自駕巴士的這個部分的話以目前國際上成熟的商品大概是到這個Level 3但是Level 3的部分的話,駕駛員都還要在這個上面所以你們估計大概還要多久?"},{"start":16261.246,"end":16287.029,"text":"我們這個估計我們在今年年底我們就會有一個自駕巴士的這個操作指引出來那如果說這個呃所謂的自駕巴士要真正能夠這個商用上路的部分可能比較可行是在早期可能是公車專用到這個線型比較大所以還要多久呃我個人的看法呃可能這個3到5年的一個時間3到5年OK好來我們的淘氣三行下"},{"start":16288.557,"end":16308.755,"text":"運輸系統十七億的標案裡面其中一個非常重要的就是T2到T3嘛T2到T3啊 旅客的運輸服務啊我們現在安排的比較特殊啊我們要用自駕車嘛我講的應該沒有錯吧 部長是 沒錯到現在可以follow上齁是 好 可以齁 好"},{"start":16310.034,"end":16317.703,"text":"從T2到T3要搞自駕巴士的系統那我看了就覺得這個非常的ambitious非常好"},{"start":16318.989,"end":16342.207,"text":"其他的先進的國家開始大家慢慢上路了台灣搞了八年到現在講原地踏步可能太沉重了但沒有任何一個業者出沙盒真的可以商轉也是事實嘛那因此我看到這個標案我就很好奇當初怎麼評選出來的所以我就仔細的去拜讀這個招標的服務建議書"},{"start":16343.482,"end":16364.062,"text":"結果裡面看到了負責自駕控制的是一個系統啊叫做禮利系統股份有限公司啊這家公司部長有沒有聽過有聽過有聽過嗎委員過去有質詢過是是是我質詢過很多次了啊但我覺得非常的奇怪我覺得非常的奇怪這家公司不曉得是有什麼通天的本領啊"},{"start":16365.205,"end":16386.548,"text":"在台灣的自駕車市場非常的活躍這個標案又給他拿到了那標案給他拿到沒關係嘛我們交通看的是專業看的是能力絕對不是在搞政商關係搞政商背景給能力有能力有專業的人拿到標案天經地義天公地道"},{"start":16387.429,"end":16410.757,"text":"但問題是是這樣嗎?然後我就看了一下他當初投標愜意服務處的時機啊2018年台中智慧城自駕車試行計畫也是履歷得標啊部長那個時候你應該還是台中市議員嘛那個時候你應該在台中市議院很認真地監督林佳龍部長在搞這個事嘛"},{"start":16413.459,"end":16420.965,"text":"來 我跟你報告一下沒有關係啦 因為到部長的高度我問部長成績的問題不會問市議員議員的成績的問題啦履歷 台中自駕公車系統7000萬打水漂 一事無成台南的 又給他7300萬 還是一事無成我們台鐵 原來的系統不好好用"},{"start":16441.702,"end":16456.495,"text":"丟了五千六百四十萬給他控搞列控4.0結果運安會上個會期跟我說這個系統根本不能用從台中到台南然後到台鐵全部都是被害人結果"},{"start":16457.296,"end":16473.248,"text":"我們淘機這麼重要T2到T3的標案又給他得標了說明一下現在這個標案又給李立自駕系統得標目前的狀態是什麼報告委員我這邊的訊息不知道對不對目前得標的廠商是晨運汽車公司"},{"start":16474.289,"end":16490.715,"text":"沒有錯我剛架構圖我不是都畫給你看了嗎主承包商是承運嘛去做presentation的時候除了承運以外另外一個重要的人就是履歷的系統嘛因為那自駕車的系統是履歷在搞的嘛對嘛所以我現在問你狀態如何"},{"start":16492.697,"end":16515.296,"text":"這個標案錢給他了嘛你要推動進度如何大家都很關心嘛目前在細部設計當中啦目前在細部設計當中您對履歷的系統有什麼樣子的疑慮其實您可以提供給我們我現在直接請教啊現在組成包商成運啊是不是有跟淘機申請啊說這個履歷很爛啊根本不能用啊要換有還是沒有"},{"start":16517.89,"end":16533.999,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":16537.981,"end":16560.676,"text":"我今天要請教部長的也要拜託部長注意我知道你剛上任所以有一些資訊今天其實是利用質詢的時間提供給部長請部長跟我們淘機的董事長大家好好合作因為我想淘機T3的進度延緩這件事情全國國人都很關心我相信院長也很關心我先預告這是我下一次質詢的主題但就T2到T3的運輸"},{"start":16568.301,"end":16588.335,"text":"當初做了標案也做了評選結果搞了一個惡名昭彰的履歷讓他拿到標案結果搞了幾年啊說他能力不足啊是在靠政商關係拿標案啊對他的批評啊完全沒錯因為現在連主承包商承運都受不了了"},{"start":16589.365,"end":16604.242,"text":"爛的不得了啊他們自己都受不了啊要換飆商啊那我的問題就來了當初這個評選到底是怎麼做的部長可以去了解一下嗎好 沒有問題委員交代去了解我就去了解需要多教"},{"start":16606.398,"end":16626.872,"text":"應該一兩個月內就可以了解清楚不用這麼久吧部長一個月好不好好沒問題一個月內我要的是一個清楚的檢討我們當初喔T2到T3這些旅客的運輸何其重要大剌剌的辦了招商還評選結果選到一個能力最差最爛還有詐騙紀錄的廠商"},{"start":16630.494,"end":16646.741,"text":"這還不是我們嘴巴講他如果後來做得很成功我們大家還是給他鼓鼓掌嘛但現在連跟他一起合作的主承包商都受不了啊要求要換廠商那問題就大了因為我相信陶基的董事長現在也很痛苦啦"},{"start":16647.501,"end":16676.334,"text":"按照本來超標的規範就已經得標了嘛得標到一半你突然要換廠商你也會擔心說欸那這樣會不會有公平性的問題當初是他來評分嘛啊我給他了現在你又要換那當初其他參與競爭的廠商會不會覺得說啊這個是有案盤還是在怎麼搞還得標了以後評選了以後還可以隨便換廠商所以我相信剛剛董事長楊董事長您在講的在等他的申請主要是這回事嘛"},{"start":16676.934,"end":16701.702,"text":"但我希望我們處理問題就是面對問題要解決問題就要先面對問題嘛當初到底怎麼評選的怎麼會給時機這麼爛他提給你們淘氣的時機三樣我剛剛全部都列出來因為每一個我都有追蹤全部都失敗全部都失敗給他得標結果現在搞到起虎難下"},{"start":16703.052,"end":16726.677,"text":"到底要不要准他換阿不准他換繼續爛下去怎麼辦那准他換那當初這個評審是怎麼做的是不是有不可告人的地方是不是靠政商關係在南阿標案的社會都會關心嘛所以我也感謝部長啊勇於認識一個月之內您說的部分我詳細去了解一個月之內好謝謝好謝謝黃委員"},{"start":16737.096,"end":16759.95,"text":"好 接下來有請盧憲一委員發言這是邀請部長好 陳部長"},{"start":16768.121,"end":16790.935,"text":"陳部長好委員好以後希望你看到我的時候就想到原住民的問題我知道您在總諮詢的時候又提到這一句我會記得好那我先請問一下你最近去阿里山鄉是什麼時候我很久沒去阿里山OK好阿里山我們講到這個之前我先問一下義城孤島的地區目前全台有幾處"},{"start":16793.244,"end":16812.437,"text":"議程孤島的地區小的地區啦這個我不曉得但是大的地區應該是沒有內政部有統計議程孤島的地區有194處193處最新的最多的在花蓮、旗幟市、屏東再過來高雄跟南土市相當多是19處"},{"start":16813.698,"end":16839.383,"text":"那要提到這個就是說我們原住民地區大概有這個193處佔了174處也就是說90%都是在我們原住民地區那為什麼特別提到阿里山鄉呢最近凱美颱風我有去那邊勘災那得到了一些不一樣的額外的問題這個離美道路就是離家道三美他原本在省政府時代的時候要做一條道路"},{"start":16840.403,"end":16855.777,"text":"對,省政府精神以後呢,這個經費就斷掉了那赫伯颱風以後就沒有再建了他當時只建了4公里,就是看到的這個中間這個路那還差了5、6公里的路就可以把這條路做完也就是說因為這條路沒有做完呢"},{"start":16856.838,"end":16874.607,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":16879.676,"end":16890.57,"text":"就一般的人來說他像很像到了隔壁的縣市一樣所以希望把這條道路能夠復編因為他們說他們永遠的問題都是卡在他不是編號道路"},{"start":16891.687,"end":16921.127,"text":"他就是當時省政府時代沒有完成的一條村與村之間的他這個目前算是現道是算是現道所以我希望部長你能夠接收這個問題不要永遠把問題停留在那邊他們已經爭取20年以上了那這個問題誰去都說哪一個立委去都沒有用那我希望你上任以後可以把這件事情放在心裡面我們跟地方政府來協調一下請他們提出可行性研究的這個需求那我們來做研究好不好好 下一案"},{"start":16922.864,"end":16939.492,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":16946.161,"end":16964.643,"text":"你知道雪屋那這邊比較靠近我們新北臺北這個都會區所以會很多遊客當時困住了300多個遊客幸好他有一個很多年沒有走的一個替代道路區公所把它搶通了以後才可以勉強的可以人可以走過去"},{"start":16965.484,"end":16975.939,"text":"我今天要凸顯這個問題就是說它無預警崩塌嘛目前在台灣我們國家只有在鐵道跟國道有那個邊坡的那個預警系統"},{"start":16977.133,"end":16996.579,"text":"那我們是不是交通部這邊可以去盤點所有我們無論是風景區或者是我們原住民地區主要的林外道路都應該要有一個預警系統的一個部件希望你們可以早一點規劃你想想看那個崩塌如果是發生在白天或者是上下班的時間的話會死多少人"},{"start":16997.279,"end":17024.293,"text":"幸運的是國家這個發生的是在半夜這兩次都是半夜發生的所以沒有傷到任何人不過如果是白天就很難想像而且是復興區那花蓮那個地方是它是唯一的林外道路裡面很多是要洗身的人很多是要上班上課的人就沒有辦法通過所以這些五一警系統的部件我希望交通部能不能把它放在我們的近期的規劃裡面好不好部長"},{"start":17025.759,"end":17028.251,"text":"可以嗎?可以,沒有問題。委員您交代這個,我們來定義。"},{"start":17032.745,"end":17058.478,"text":"我要講的就是我們南橫的痛就是我們桃園區還有我們只要經過那裡的一些我們的旅客或者是要運輸那裡的農產品明巴洛克橋自從我們八八風災以後到現在它每一年或者是說到現在為止已經花了非常非常多的錢那裡的原住民都非常羨慕我們霧台的原住民我們霧台有一個叫做果川大橋"},{"start":17059.318,"end":17062.42,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":17081.733,"end":17083.394,"text":"我們國道8號就停在新化我們國道10號就停在岐山"},{"start":17110.765,"end":17131.72,"text":"我們八八就停在潮州沒有一個是到原鄉地區的所以我希望把多一點的經費花在我們這個整修而不是永遠在修變橋的一個等級可以嗎這是變橋沒有錯啦是那我們之後確實也會提高層級在中期的部分29跟20你現在看到的那個是短期啦我知道台29跟台20希望部長能夠聽進去謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":17139.511,"end":17160.678,"text":"好 謝謝盧憲宜委員接下來有請林月琴委員發言好 有請我們的陳部長好 陳部長"},{"start":17169.689,"end":17193.125,"text":"9月22日,台中女大優秀學生遇到交通事故離開我們。昨天,她媽媽黃女士表示,她女兒的死,是否可以換到交通改革?期望妳在任內。"},{"start":17194.045,"end":17206.193,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":17213.318,"end":17241.454,"text":"未來他提的我的孩子的犧牲才會是有意義的就是要換到交通改革也希望部長能夠切記那下一頁最近大家都很關心我們的行人條例即將在10月份就上路了相信我各部會都很忙碌那我想問部長針對條例的實施相關的法令規範目前的處理進度是什麼有沒有掌握"},{"start":17244.281,"end":17268.722,"text":"我們現在正在進行法制作業當中。好,我們現在進行法制作業。對,我們也正在進行法制作業當中。來,下一頁。就我們辦公室掌握的資料,交通部在行人優先區標誌的通過過程當中,事實上似乎有點草率。首先圖示的一個設計上,好像只開過一次會議。那就完成討論了。而且怎麼設計的?"},{"start":17270.183,"end":17297.802,"text":"沒有人講清楚那其次呢在會議當中提供的版本跟最後通過的版本都不同所以參與會議的一些專家團體都覺得我都不知情為什麼當初你會議當中提出來版本也不是按照他們意見調修出來的第二個版本不是所以這中間到底發生什麼事所以經過大家反應之後一週你們週一的時候又再度召開會議了可是最後難"},{"start":17298.462,"end":17304.484,"text":"有些人同意有些人不同意確實啦有些民團跟一些專家他們的想法會不太一樣是可是你不可以對外說他們已經是同意的狀態我們之後還會再召開一次的會議然後再來做更具體的討論對好"},{"start":17328.581,"end":17357.326,"text":"那夏業部長我當然知道因為人民團體為什麼或公民團體為什麼不同意因為你要去考慮到就是說我知道當然你們有一些困難在於說我們國內有一些相關法規不能用紅斜線可是我還是要去提醒兩點我們在臺灣的習慣包含我們的法規裡面規定紅斜線其實是禁止的意思大家的習慣性會覺得是禁止"},{"start":17358.506,"end":17372.684,"text":"可是本來就是已經這個是在終點那我就要提醒是我們國也是維園納的公約國在相關的通用圖面設計考慮上是不是應該要以這個為優先來作為依據"},{"start":17375.027,"end":17391.5,"text":"所以以圖示為主然後文字為輔就像剛剛講的優先區的終點的時候用文字今天我們很鼓勵觀光可是外國人來到我們這邊看到那個圖面的話坦白講用文字表達的話不太清楚會沒有辦法去理解下一頁"},{"start":17392.921,"end":17410.323,"text":"二、國外針對於行人優先區事實上有對應的配套措施,像是鋪面的樣式、降速的設施、出入口的設計、停車空間跟動線的安排和直栽的高度跟位置限制。所以想問部長,"},{"start":17411.704,"end":17431.116,"text":"目前有針對優先區研擬、修訂相關的措施人嗎?報告委員這個部分應該是會內政部他們來研擬這個部分會會選交通部但是是那個內政部為主因為他是市區裡面的道路市區細則裡面對優先區的部分是好那我們"},{"start":17431.789,"end":17436.892,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》"},{"start":17449.18,"end":17472.879,"text":"中點是不是還是考慮事實上是圖示大家比較清楚因為我們還是要考慮其他外國人來到這邊的時候要怎麼去理解我們希望在年底之前大家凝聚共識因為那個圖示的部分大家建議比較多所以我們現在先用文字那未來如果要加圖示是可以再加的那是不是到時候10月1號要上路如果有排面這樣做的話是不是浪費公堂可能要去考慮啊"},{"start":17473.844,"end":17497.721,"text":"下面的文字上面未來可以再加圖示那個沒有問題不會浪費公帑因為你即便未來有圖示下面我們文字還是建議要寫上去所以希望你盡速而且我認為要跟公民團體跟專家學者充分的溝通不是一意孤行沒問題沒問題那再來我想問部長如果今天你開車準備左轉的時候你會停在哪一個地方是A還是B如果是我會停在A"},{"start":17501.922,"end":17514.257,"text":"那相信部長應該隨時有掌握我們的新修法的條文的狀況所以你才會回答是A可是我也要問進一步問部長說如果這個車道前方都是車停在"},{"start":17515.458,"end":17525.705,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":17546.338,"end":17561.322,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。六、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":17567.924,"end":17588.009,"text":"禁止在環網線當中去暫停的規定當然據說這是警政署堅持的可是修法的版本當中不僅沒有定義何謂叫做暫停這樣的規定也會讓跟先進國家的規範是不同的所以除了背離實際的駕駛的情境也有可能產生行車的安全"},{"start":17589.427,"end":17613.911,"text":"來下一頁所以在這邊我主張是不是可以儘速完善我們的標誌的規則來修正可是要多方參考國際的規範專家學者的跟團體的意見第二個能夠有效的落實應該儘速訂定新任遊閒區的相對應的規範那所以是不是這兩個觀點那也麻煩部長兩個禮拜內回覆我相關的書面意見好感謝委員沒問題好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝"},{"start":17621.513,"end":17644.151,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 接下來有請洪森翰委員發言請陳部長然後跟高鐵高鐵公司現在是總經理"},{"start":17653.552,"end":17655.103,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱"},{"start":17658.302,"end":17681.643,"text":"OK好部長好委員好今天是我第一次質詢部長剛上任那部長我其實時間沒有很多我直接想跟你詢問我想請問部長部長你知道我們現在搭高鐵它其實這個700T那一列車其實有989個位置你知道有幾個電動輪椅"},{"start":17684.4,"end":17698.849,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":17709.435,"end":17736.093,"text":"不曉你知道我們其實現在在臺灣的障礙者目前其實已經超過120萬人那如果以我們現在高齡化的狀況看起來這個數字的比率只會越來越高所以不曉我想跟你分享我們其實現在這個臺灣我們120萬人如果來算的話當然我不是說120萬全部都是需要輪椅可是看起來這個比率是遠遠高過於剛才說0.2%的這個數字"},{"start":17739.695,"end":17765.45,"text":"我想分享現在其實科技越來越發達那障礙者其實使用的輔具那他們為了要來增加他們這個自立生活或包括自我行動的能力其實很多的障礙者其實他們目前都會選擇電動輪椅那也包括其實很多障礙者他們可能也會有這個團體旅遊的需求包括出差的需求所以你可以想像當今天有一群障礙者的團體他們要團體旅遊的時候"},{"start":17767.631,"end":17774.317,"text":"好,我們要一起做高鐵結果高鐵,對不起,只有兩個論議席所以他可能這個團體裡面假如有10個、15個這個障礙者"},{"start":17778.945,"end":17800.083,"text":"那他們要分幾班座?他到同一個地方他要分幾班座?恐怕非常多這造成他們非常非常多的不便其實這個問題並不是現在才在討論這個問題其實是從2018年我們很多障礙者的團體就不斷地找高鐵找交通部在討論說是不是可以來增加"},{"start":17801.38,"end":17815.724,"text":"高鐵裡面的這個電動輪椅席但當時高鐵當然都回答說如果你要我們拆這個相關的座位可能會有結構上面的安全當時高鐵的回答一直是這樣當時高鐵一直給這樣回答好那現在時間來了"},{"start":17821.47,"end":17839.661,"text":"這個障礙者他的需求當然當時一直是對這樣回應那我們現在要買新車了嘛是沒錯我們現在要買新車了嘛所以部長你知不知道其實這個我們其實現在高鐵其實也發了新聞稿說我們接下來很可能會跟日本東京簽約這個採購的金額高達1200億日幣那每個編組目前大概是23.4億台幣那這個新車呢會以這個"},{"start":17848.846,"end":17872.669,"text":"日本的東海道新幹線N700S為參考的系統2026年交車2027年希望可以投入營運所以部長你知不知道N700S日本的N700S裡面有多少個輪椅系?這個我不曉得但是應該要比現在要更多才對他們有6個輪椅系有6個輪椅系所以我們辦公室之前其實就一直在跟高鐵討論"},{"start":17874.778,"end":17902.103,"text":"如果我們既然都要買這個日本的N700S那我們為什麼不能比照N700S目前在日本運行的它有6個輪椅系我們是不是就我也不要求多我們並沒有要求超過這個數字就至少就比照現在日本的這個東海道新幹線的這個同樣的車型就這麼多的就好可是說實話我一直得不到高鐵一個明確的回覆"},{"start":17903.303,"end":17915.58,"text":"我們辦公室跟高鐵討論好幾次但一直得不到回覆所以今天我也想趁著今天當然是第一次陳部長到委員會你說應該是因為您的關心現在新的車廂是用6個輪椅系"},{"start":17917.859,"end":17935.806,"text":"這是新的訊息喔因為之前我們跟高鐵公司詢問的時候一直沒有給我們正式的回覆所以我們其實要的很簡單是希望能夠比照這六個輪椅席就安全比照因為我們就是要買這個型號嘛所以如果今天部長願意在這邊承諾的話回來不要再改了啦"},{"start":17936.246,"end":17961.164,"text":"你不改就是六個嘛沒有 這個事情是我們要要求日本的廠商要按照這個要求的標準做六個輪椅席那之前我們希望高鐵這樣做可是我們沒有得到正面的回應因為您的關心所以高鐵現在也對日本的原廠有做這樣子的要求那如果今天陳部長在這邊也做了這個承諾我覺得這是最好我覺得這也是對我們很多障礙者來說是一個很大的福因為這是他們從2018到現在的訴求"},{"start":17963.365,"end":17978.384,"text":"好不容易等到現在要買新車了那當然有機會來實現他們這個願望坦白說六個我自己覺得也沒有到很多啦但至少大家是一個很基本的要求希望能夠適應這個要求所以我自己是希望說如果今天部長跟總經理都在這個地方的話"},{"start":17978.965,"end":17993.342,"text":"那當然有這個承諾那是不是也可以讓我們有一個接下來我們可能這相關的採購要求日本的廠商相關的規劃的報告可能在一個月內如果現在已經開始規劃了一個月內可以提給我們你們現在高鐵在做這個採購的規劃的報告應該沒有問題吧這個部分"},{"start":17997.133,"end":18016.665,"text":"因為根本報告現在因為都在這個細部設計的過程之中我們已經把這個要求跟對方要求了但是對於這外面我們現在都還不太方便去announce我們整個規格包括我們的輪椅這邊有多少這個有多少的量這個請這個委員瞭解"},{"start":18017.225,"end":18036.701,"text":"但是就總經理跟部長都很清楚反正我們現在就一定會有六個這是我們已經明確提出要求了嘛對不對好在這邊先謝謝部長我覺得這是我們今天先聽到一個對於我們交通部對於障礙者朋友一個很大的福音也是讓大家長久以來的願望至少能夠得以實現我們希望這個新車能夠越快上路越好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝紅委員接下來有請有許廷委員發言"},{"start":18056.4,"end":18058.829,"text":"好謝謝主席這個交通部長有請來請陳部長"},{"start":18072.492,"end":18095.362,"text":"好 部長辛苦了 我們就先開始謝謝委員今天很多人對你進行靈魂拷問是 因為從大家從傳統的觀念來看算是破格就任交通部長 對不對那當然很多人講是在學習沒有沒有破格啦 不是破格一般來講 要不然你要具有非常深厚的專業素養要不然就是經過一定的歷練嘛所以大家媒體會這樣報導其實也是其他友誌我的歷練其實也不少"},{"start":18095.802,"end":18108.954,"text":"好 幾月不少 沒有關係但我希望我聽到的是你今天帶來我先問你一個問題就是你請問部長就任之後你想要給整個交通部帶來什麼改變我們國家大的交通政策會有什麼樣的創新跟調整"},{"start":18110.686,"end":18139.691,"text":"所有的交通建設都是所有民眾非常期待的也真正的都是福國利民的那也跟每一個民眾的生活絕對是息息相關的我相信所有的民眾都希望可以做到更安全這是第一個安全那接下來更重要的是很多的民眾包含委員都在內都希望能夠做得更多做得更快做得更好那這個部分當然我上任之後所有的進度我都會盯緊讓他做得更快時間有限視頻包吻的話大概差不多就好"},{"start":18140.151,"end":18168.713,"text":"當然這很正常但我希望聽到的其實說部長你相對年輕的這個年齡相對沒有像傳統不管是學經歷或怎麼樣就就任交通部長其實我覺得你可以得分的地方是有魄力嘛你來帶來一個大的改變帶來一個很好的政策亮點我想這就是作文這個位置非常重要的一個特質我跟你做交換的分享今天我們專案報告的主題其實在談的是行人安全你剛剛第一個講到的就是安全那我們順著安全往下談最近行人路權是險學"},{"start":18169.474,"end":18185.594,"text":"因為我們的中央政府到地方其實都編列相關非常多的預算執行非常多的建設在改善這樣的事情但你剛好這跟你的經驗我們都當過地方的議員 對不對這樣的政策下到地方的時候比如說我們要做一個人行道的改善等等常常打折扣部長同意這樣的說法嗎確實是有這個說法為什麼"},{"start":18190.287,"end":18209.456,"text":"中央有時候是規劃的部分是中央或者是說設計整體規劃是中央但實際到地方的執行是地方政府那中央只有補助那為什麼會打折扣你就從地方的視角來分析這個事就看地方政府他們在發包的過程真的只是地方政府的問題嗎"},{"start":18211.072,"end":18238.183,"text":"部長你也當過議員我也當過議員你都很清楚嘛我們當民意代表有時候坦白說會到地方在施工的過程會有這個建議那個建議對嘛我們要聽到是基層的聲音對不對你人行道拓寬對不對哇停車位不見了哇里長不高興了對不對或者是開車有需求的人不高興了你的人行人路權好的政策初衷到了地方因為你要跟縣市妥協到了最後又陷入人車在爭奪路服啊這樣子的一個"},{"start":18238.923,"end":18262.961,"text":"一直以來都有的成科 對不對我們聽到這樣子面對問題的態度就很好所以政策常常難落地甚有可能造成所謂的衝突對立如果今天部長你今天就任交通部長你可以大膽的講說我們就是貫徹政府這樣子的一個政策配套我們能夠解決地方的問題透過交通政策的各方各面的配套措施那我覺得你做這個交通部長我會願意讚美你 對不對那我們就順著這往下談人車"},{"start":18264.963,"end":18282.324,"text":"這個爭論的問題怎麼來解決你覺得你在做部長這樣子的一個任內你有沒有目標要把台灣從車本城市轉型變成人本跟大眾運輸為主的交通政策我在上任的時候第一天大家問我說要怎麼做我第一句話叫做人本交通人本交通"},{"start":18283.365,"end":18297.093,"text":"好 那我們就順著這個往下講我現在請問部長我原本不問編制我問我們整個交通部裡面整個公共汽車明年的預算大概是多少大概就好公共汽車啊公共汽車"},{"start":18299.086,"end":18317.406,"text":"四十億是公共汽車但那個TPAS的部分另外算TPAS其實也比例也非常是九十億但是裡面不是全部是公共汽車沒錯TPAS我本來就要另外算公共汽車就好如果把TPAS含進去我們這個公共汽車的這樣子的一個運輸"},{"start":18321.102,"end":18344.731,"text":"加起來總額大概是179億左右但是東拉西扣比如說T-PASS佔了90億就像你講的不存在是公共汽車還有光是電動巴士的補助就佔了4、50億真正你能夠支持地方基層做公車路網跟路線調整的大概就像你剛剛所講的大概4、50億左右部長你覺得這樣夠嗎?"},{"start":18346.255,"end":18362.676,"text":"我覺得公共汽車的部分可以再加強但是我們在TPAS實行之後我有看到一個蠻特殊的數據TPAS實行之後捷運跟鐵路的這個運量有上來但是公車的運量沒有上來所以這個部分其實要做得更好一點為什麼公車運量沒有上來"},{"start":18364.178,"end":18383.398,"text":"幾個部分啦當然補助的部分我們盡量做因為需求提升了可是供給沒有提升嘛對不對對但是供給不但沒有提升反而是下降的我覺得為什麼要強調公共機車這個會變成一個惡性循環我們今天如果要從車本交通轉型成人本交通你總得解決通勤族的問題吧通勤族上班我們希望他可以多走多使用人行道"},{"start":18383.979,"end":18396.648,"text":"那他不開車他怎麼上班呢?如果沒有好的公共汽車的接駁路線他怎麼到捷運站呢?這都是老問題了可是如果部長你上任你可以講說我就針對這個事好好解決的話那我覺得那是值得期待的現在供給下降的問題是"},{"start":18398.567,"end":18413.351,"text":"業者退場啊司機缺額的問題沒有辦法解決啊你看這幾年我們針對公共汽車的預算中110年的48億左右到了113年我們現在是排除TPAS的狀況好像有增加但是因為那是電動公車的專項的預算到了114年其實總體藍色的部分其實是沒有什麼變化的"},{"start":18418.427,"end":18427.412,"text":"可是這個沒有什麼變化能夠解決中間發生很大的兩件事第一個叫業者退場嘛第二叫司機缺額嘛你現在新的挑戰你如果用舊的邏輯跟舊的預算的時候請問你怎麼解決這樣的問題部長"},{"start":18431.738,"end":18459.166,"text":"報告委員目前的做法您應該也都清楚但是如果有更新的做法可以建議我歡迎委員建議給我們我期待看到的是未來這個預算當然應該要逐年來做上升而且這個上升你不是說我又多編電動公車現在你業者換電動公車有什麼用呢沒有司機開有什麼用對不對你看哪一些的政策細節可以來做設計讓公車的補貼要提升嘛你要讓業者有誘因進場嘛你要專案解決司機缺額的問題嘛"},{"start":18460.766,"end":18485.896,"text":"這些東西要不然你要有好的政策優惠要不然你就要有大量的預算支持嘛你這樣才有辦法讓各級的地方政府去配合讓中央跟地方的公車路線去做提升嘛公車路線去提升的時候才有意義那很多人會講啊預算什麼大家都要對不對馬路建設也要對不對軌道建設也要可是部長這我講你也很清楚搞一條捷運線多少錢好幾百億這一條捷運線能夠服務多少地方"},{"start":18486.997,"end":18501.217,"text":"頂多一個自家式的兩三個行政區嘛長一點三五個行政區好幾百億造福了大概一個縣市的一半左右的旅客可是我們今天看的這個是全國捏全國的公共機車才50億一年啊難道不少嗎"},{"start":18501.998,"end":18520.598,"text":"我們應該是要增加啦那另外就是說增加幸福巴士的部分比較偏鄉或者是人口比較少這些細節我們希望在未來的幾年如果您在這個部長的位置上越坐越穩的時候我們希望看到的不只是我們針對行人安全的各式硬體建設提升軟體的部分也要提升你要讓我們台灣的交通從"},{"start":18521.579,"end":18535.486,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":18555.237,"end":18568.924,"text":"好 謝謝您委員接下來有請黃建豪委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們一樣先請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":18580.063,"end":18602.19,"text":"好部長委員好部長辛苦了1點40分我想說你應該還沒用午餐但是我想這個年輕人年輕力壯應該撐得住啦OK沒問題謝謝所以部長我是第一次在這個交通委員會正式的業務質詢那我想這個部長跟我也是老交情的但是我們第一次面對面的來做這個質詢的工作我想今天心情此刻心情跟上午應該還是有點不一樣了啦應該已經慢慢習慣了這個節奏"},{"start":18604.511,"end":18623.165,"text":"那部長這兩天來拜會的時候我也跟部長提一個期許我想今年交通委員會一年換三個部長那我們期待我們陳世凱部長未來三年同一個部長就好了我們的交通政策希望能夠延續下去那就來進行我的主題我想這個最近大家這禮拜在關心到我們台中的這個公車問題"},{"start":18624.286,"end":18624.406,"text":"直覺啊對"},{"start":18651.676,"end":18668.868,"text":"沒關係你就頂加一點直覺就好我看我們看我們的這個意見沒有一致沒有一致我可以跟你講我分享我的直覺是什麼我的感覺他蠻寬敞的什麼寬敞其實不寬啦中山路我熟他其實不寬但照片看起來是寬敞的照片看起來對人行道的設置是有的"},{"start":18670.834,"end":18690.148,"text":"這都看起來就是道路明顯的比這個人行道寬敞很多啦你也看到你剛才提到說的確中山路本身想像中路幅不寬但是也看到旁邊有一輛微停的計程車它是停在路側端但旁邊路側端這邊這一條路其實它還有很寬的路可以通過"},{"start":18690.928,"end":18711.867,"text":"是所以回到什麼問題就回到說今天到底就像剛剛牛委員講的一樣今天你這個部長新上任之後要跟過去的部長有什麼不一樣我們現在都提到說希望台灣的交通的部會這個交通這個想法能夠從車本的交通轉換成人本交通我想今天這個道路很明顯的就在告訴部長說"},{"start":18713.619,"end":18729.339,"text":"雖然中山路已經不寬但他居然旁邊危停的計程車停在那裡他的路還過得去就表示這個道路設計是有問題他不是為了行人設計他是為了讓大家方便停車啊有人行道但不夠寬我們看下一張齁部長"},{"start":18730.84,"end":18757.603,"text":"當然是這個民間團體這個我從這個標線改造台灣路的這個臉書專頁上面拿下來這個圖我想這兩年這幾年下來很多人本交通的團體提供了交通部也提供民意代表很多的想法跟意見希望說能夠讓台灣的這個道路能夠走向這個人本交通的這個問題因為其實大家都知道說最嚴重的大家常常講說因為這個國外跟台灣的民情不同但是我們放諸四海"},{"start":18758.524,"end":18782.804,"text":"全世界各國不管是荷蘭也好、日本也好、其他國家我們現在看到的好像這個人行道做的、人行、日本交通做得比較好的國家他們當年道路也是比較寬的慢慢的透過政府的溝通、社會的溝通慢慢的做到今天的樣子那我想問一下部長你對於這樣子的溝通工作你做好準備嗎?就像其實我剛剛跟女委員的問題有點類似因為我們都當過地方民意代表"},{"start":18783.724,"end":18813.344,"text":"今天交通部的各位官員你們很專業也願意出很多錢我們出了幾百億希望去改善各地方的交通但是落到地方之後會遇到什麼障礙部長你看清楚吧這個我相當清楚其實行人路權的這個觀念其實在北部相對是比較簡單的你要限縮道路然後讓人行道能夠寬闊一點是比較容易的但坦白說在我們中部或者是在南部要做這方面的溝通其實我覺得在社會上的溝通要更加努力"},{"start":18813.444,"end":18815.785,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「當年大家都覺得找民意代表喬"},{"start":18830.874,"end":18846.394,"text":"坦白說是這樣子但現在可以嗎?現在都不行現在當然不行但是現在我們現在做人行道我坦白講最近的確感謝交通部也感謝內政部撥了很多款項到地方要來做人行道會議看的時候對啊里長就跳出來講啦我沒地方停車"},{"start":18847.395,"end":18868.495,"text":"我道路不夠寬我有商店我有零停的問題所以這個問題我想問一下我們新的這個陳世凱部長你未來要怎麼樣來做社會溝通要怎麼樣去推動你除了把錢不下去把責任交給地方政府去執行之外那交通部作為全國這個預算最多最大的部會我們要怎麼樣去改變要怎麼去推動人本交通"},{"start":18869.136,"end":18898.018,"text":"我覺得這個觀念除了宣導跟教育之外很重要的是政府要有決心那交通部的部分有決心要這麼做不過坦白說因為委員您也是從地方的民意代表上來的您也很清楚有時候地方政府礙於地方的民情的狀況底下會有一些不太願意配合的部分那我覺得是這個樣子我現在觀察到有一個點就是社會對於行人路權的這個觀念越來越重"},{"start":18899.178,"end":18922.852,"text":"當社會的這個觀念越來越成熟的時候其實政府要推動這件事就可以更努力更簡單一點所以我在交通部長任內我會大力來推行這樣子的觀念那甚至主動到地方去跟地方政府來溝通的動作我會來做那當然我知道委員應該期許的會是更大幅度的修改一些交通上面的法令跟規則讓這些東西能夠實際落實這個部分我們也來做檢討"},{"start":18927.074,"end":18948.091,"text":"我想這個部長不只是更多的這個宣傳不只是更多的這個經費跟這個法規啦我想每年政府編列了非常多的這個宣傳預算那大家在野黨我們身為在野黨也常詬病說你們到底把錢花到哪裡去我想這就是一個部分就是說今天既然你要推動人本交通既然今天你希望能夠讓大眾去接受這樣的觀念"},{"start":18949.172,"end":18949.872,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就"},{"start":18979.632,"end":18981.854,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》"},{"start":18999.528,"end":19014.076,"text":"所以換句話說到底這個盤點的過程是不是有更客觀的數據跟標準可以去盤點這個數據因為你今天不管是民間提報的因為這個包含說透過這個民眾通報路口改善有637那交通部自己通報的是799這些數量"},{"start":19016.96,"end":19038.751,"text":"他怎麼而來?報告委員一方面是行人的這個傷亡的數字這個如果是高的地方當然就是我們優先要改善的地方那另外一個部分就是地方政府由他們來提報因為實際上地方的交通的路口哪裡比較危險需要急速的改善應該是地方政府會比中央政府更清楚所以有一大部分的數據是地方政府提報上來的"},{"start":19039.631,"end":19058.094,"text":"那有沒有更客觀的除了死亡人數之外我是希望說今天我今天在這邊質詢就是因為過去都是用這個邏輯來做事情就是啊這類似地方裝紅綠燈一樣啦你要先有A級車禍我才能裝紅綠燈這很多地方政府這樣幹今天但我們要做的是今天交通部如果要盡量推動所謂人門交通要推動路口改善計畫"},{"start":19058.795,"end":19078.137,"text":"你除了看死亡人數之外有沒有預判預防的機制什麼樣的路口它應該被提報什麼樣的路口你應該編譯算改善不然每年真的我是說真的這兩年的確花了很多錢幾百億再去改善所謂的這個人行道路口改善但是其實說真的這個車禍死亡人數層數不窮啊死亡人數現在是上漲的是"},{"start":19079.478,"end":19097.786,"text":"因為行人事故他比去年同期他還是增加的所以這個數字我讓部長當作一個警惕我們希望明年看到數的時候他一定要下降不要日日上升大家要一起努力沒有錯這很重要那再來一樣這個公車交通事故當然這是大家的焦點放在台中但是我們去看數據其實認真調閱數據是一個很驚人的數字111年因為公車這種貨大貨車的大客車"},{"start":19104.088,"end":19118.13,"text":"或者是公營民營的這個交通則是公車死亡人數110.40去年43今年目前是13所以公車這事情不是只有地方政府個別個別去罵交通局長或是交通局長去裁罰公車業者"},{"start":19119.428,"end":19136.306,"text":"今天猜到這個數據我想交通部這個數據是你們統計出來的全國的數據那就表示我們公車可能業者也好或司機也好或整個交通的這個問題也好他有系統性的問題他每年有這麼多人因為公車這是公車有沒有算其他的什麼大卡車都沒有就是公車而已"},{"start":19137.367,"end":19157.533,"text":"一年有這麼多人因為公車而死亡所以不知道部長對這件事情有沒有什麼樣的想法你沒有提改善計畫嗎還是說就是各地方政府繼續各行其事臺北有臺北做法臺中有臺中做法高雄高雄做法那交通部做法是什麼報告委員目前齁我剛剛在幾位委員的詢問當中我都有回答就是說對於停等的這個強制性對於"},{"start":19158.713,"end":19175.64,"text":"大型的客車或者大型的貨車我們都有要求而且是強制的啦如果沒有做到一定會有罰則那個停等是左轉跟右轉的時候必須停等這是第一個第二個車上的一些預警系統其實我們也都一定的規範包含說這個盲點的這個影像的部分"},{"start":19176.26,"end":19192.96,"text":"每一台都有裝了每一台都有裝了那ADAS的部分目前裝的比例也非常的高所以這些設施的增加包含說停等的要求尤其是公車的部分我們要求他在停等的過程當中還要指叉確認也就是左邊看完右邊看右邊看完再往前看其實這些的確"},{"start":19194.401,"end":19202.323,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":19218.968,"end":19229.999,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":19243.132,"end":19266.786,"text":"那這個假車牌當然有些網路論壇有提到說可能是因為所謂嚴重超速的這個規範變嚴之後很多的車牌他因為超速嘛所以被扣了所以他就去用偽造車牌那原因怎麼發生呢我先不細究今天時間不夠我們要談的是罰則的部分罰則部分以現在來講是罰3600到18000部長你可以上網上蝦皮看一下假車牌多少錢啊是"},{"start":19267.54,"end":19291.646,"text":"你罰的前夕跟假車牌比假車牌便宜啊我講真的所以他根本罰的不痛不癢那我們看到目前的交通道交條例、處罰條例裡面看下一頁除了罰錢之外還有一個是可以牌照扣腳我就已經有假車牌了你還扣腳我的牌照那那個假車牌被扣腳意義在哪裡呢他還是可以去買個假車牌放上去啊所以這個邏輯問題就是說第一個"},{"start":19294.284,"end":19318.294,"text":"你罰則已經比假車牌便宜了然後你又扣他的車牌但他去買一張不就好了嗎他買一張假的車牌放上去他繼續開在路上所以在罰則部分現有的條例裡面我認為你們有機會試用我們看下一頁在相關的法律裡面他本來就應該要取得相關的合格證明那如果沒有的話第一個車輛應該理論上依法是可以沒入的吧"},{"start":19319.212,"end":19349.032,"text":"所以我希望說在假車牌這個問題上面除了罰錢跟所謂你再扣繳息是沒有意義的之外對於車輛這個財產本身交通部有沒有機會去做執行所謂車輛摸輪行為部長這個部分可能條件上會比較嚴格但是委員您剛剛所提到的增加罰則的部分我們來研究然後通過立法院的同意我們大概就可以增加罰則是第一個第二個其實它是有刑責的用假車牌其實是有刑罰的部分那這個部分我們也可以來做討論那我們也可以來建議說看要不要修正"},{"start":19349.492,"end":19352.594,"text":"好 部長 謝謝好 謝謝黃建豪委員 接下來有請羅志強委員發言有請陳部長好 陳部長"},{"start":19383.559,"end":19383.979,"text":"韓國籍的啦啦隊"},{"start":19405.117,"end":19414.906,"text":"那他日前取得就業金卡也考取了機車駕照我想請教部長你覺得李多會在台灣騎機車安全嗎?"},{"start":19418.408,"end":19438.321,"text":"要看韓國那邊的交通文化啦我們是比較少去韓國我不曉得韓國的機車多不多我覺得部長點到一個重點這個交通文化不同其實也就是這個我們講說外籍人士在台灣的騎車的時候的一個風險就他會慣性什麼不同所以那這個我接下來切入正題"},{"start":19439.915,"end":19454.479,"text":"近年來臺灣缺工然後政府也積極開放引進外籍的勞動力人才那我目前合法拘留在我國的外籍人士從108年的78.5萬人增加到112年的85.2萬人增加成長大概是8.48%但是我要請教部長你知道從108年到112年同期"},{"start":19467.862,"end":19480.589,"text":"外籍人士交通事故死傷人數增加多少幅度嗎?報告委員我現在沒有掌握這個數字外籍人士我也不會突襲你因為這個數字比較細我告訴你從6213人增加到12021人漲幅高達93.48%"},{"start":19493.957,"end":19517.168,"text":"我不知道部長你看到這個數字的感覺是什麼感覺到驚人對 非常驚人 我是用恐怖兩個字來形容人數成長是8.48%但交通死傷率增加93.48%這顯然就不純粹是因為人數增加的增加嘛那包含了 剛剛其實部長也提到嘛"},{"start":19517.688,"end":19533.185,"text":"就是外籍人士對我國交通國情不熟悉在交通文化適應過程當中所產生的一個風險問題以今年上半年來說你知道我們的外籍人士交通死傷人數成長多少嗎"},{"start":19535.814,"end":19564.019,"text":"我告訴您5.4%那又預計要再創歷史新高紀錄好這些都是我先講背景我希望部長真的是能夠好好去想一想這外籍人士在臺灣的交通安全問題那但是有一點我就要跟部長稍微抱怨一下112年審計部的報告其實就已經針對外籍人士交通死傷大幅增加提醒過交通部"},{"start":19564.699,"end":19588.278,"text":"但我看到交通部的回應坦白講我不是很滿意啦交通部說會主動媒合有考照需求之外籍人士參加機車駕駛訓練我想問部長這就是我們交通部能夠講出克服外籍人士在台灣的所謂的交通風險大增的唯一解方嗎"},{"start":19590.164,"end":19611.082,"text":"應該不會是只有這方面啦其實教育宣導的部分相當重要不過教育宣導的部分又牽扯到文字跟語文的部分那這個部分其實交通部應該要做多國語言讓外籍人士看得懂的部分應該要多加強因為部長你是新上來那過去交通部對審計部回復這種態度我直接用三個字來形容太敷衍了"},{"start":19612.102,"end":19632.973,"text":"但是我覺得這個也不能算到部長你頭上畢竟你心上來可是我認為部長這個事情你要放在心上事實上李多惠他把他騎機車上路的影片發布之後真的就很多的臺灣的網友就提醒李多惠要注意臺灣的交通狀況"},{"start":19635.134,"end":19650.803,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。六、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":19658.067,"end":19681.494,"text":"我們對於我們在招募外籍的人才甚至外國的朋友來台灣觀光都會有負面影響他會覺得你不安全會害怕那麼同樣的CNN就曾經以所謂的地域為名來報導台灣外籍人士死傷過多認為這不利觀光所以這邊我要拜託部長"},{"start":19682.874,"end":19706.729,"text":"觀光跟道安都是交通部的核心業務嘛對不對所以我希望交通部可以針對外籍人士死傷增加的問題提出專門的一個報告跟解決的方案能夠來大幅降低這種狀況好不好好沒問題下一個我想請教那個部長我們歷年行人死傷人數最多是哪一年行人死傷對"},{"start":19711.072,"end":19731.738,"text":"這個數字部長你要熟悉一下107年嗎其實是去年就是2023年全國死傷人數高達17660人那交通部今年的報告跟大家講說到2023年底行人安全跟耗資設施改善了一萬處對不對"},{"start":19733.318,"end":19749.596,"text":"這一點我覺得有改善我覺得給交通部拍拍手啦但是我想請教部長今年上半年行人死亡人數較去年同期是增加還是減少報告委員很遺憾的是增加對而且增加5.8個百分比其實是蠻多的"},{"start":19750.197,"end":19768.19,"text":"那就出現一個根本的問題為什麼改善一萬處設施行人死亡數還是上升?部長什麼原因?報告委員這個部分各方面的努力都要做啦我剛剛講過工程也好或者是教育宣導也好執法也好都要做但是我們要去找到原因"},{"start":19768.71,"end":19787.878,"text":"我剛剛有報告過目前看起來有四成是因為違規包含21%是行車沒有禮讓行人另外19%是行人沒有依規定穿越馬路的部分那違規的部分是目前我們看到最高的我提醒部長一件事情就慢慢把原因找出來很重要"},{"start":19788.678,"end":19803.221,"text":"但是事實上交通部我們像本席如果交通部對行人交通改善需要的經費我們一定都是很努力的支持但我不希望見到說今天軟液體經費我們很努力的來支持交通部結果我發現"},{"start":19803.922,"end":19823.283,"text":"你改善了這麼多最後死亡人數還是不斷的上升那這一點顯然就變成是恐怕除了你在改善這些交通設施之外還有更多要努力的地方是沒有錯包含我剛剛說的教育的部分還有違規的這個這個部分看要怎麼讓違規的次數可以降低跟比例可以降低好"},{"start":19823.763,"end":19844.995,"text":"那最後我想有一個問題因為事實上我剛講這些這個交通事故哪一個年齡層交通事故最嚴重你知道嗎比較年長者那因為時間到了我就不再多述但是我希望對於高齡者行人的一個交通的安全問題真的也請部長多多上心謝謝你謝謝委員"},{"start":19848.806,"end":19852.89,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強委員接下來有請蔡易瑜委員發言好 謝謝主席我們是不是有請交通部部長陳部長"},{"start":19873.396,"end":19886.39,"text":"部長好部長因為你剛上任我想藉由這個6分鐘跟你分享一下我們嘉義的鐵路建設那嘉義就是台鐵的建設"},{"start":19889.762,"end":19914.507,"text":"呃...嘉義市先有這個鐵路高架化那當然鐵路高架化後延伸北段就是嘉義縣的民雄南段就是嘉義縣的水上這兩個鄉鎮那嘉義市的一個高架化咧當時在政策在決定的時候呃...卻很奇怪的他把所謂車輛的調度基地車輛調度基地就是大家要放火車、要修理的地方主要都放在水上"},{"start":19917.407,"end":19940.732,"text":"放在南部的水上鄉所以在當時決定了嘉義市的鐵路高架化同步也決定了水上有了一個車輛基地這個在當時嘉義縣是持一個反對的態度認為說這個車輛基地你就把它這樣放在水上會影響到未來水上鐵路高架化的進展"},{"start":19941.872,"end":19968.209,"text":"那現在問題來了問題來了就是說好那當然嘉義縣我們後續在爭取鐵路高架化北段的部分民雄的部分經濟效益評估是有到達所以他們北段鐵路高架化就延伸到民雄南段的部分在當時的經濟效益評估沒有達到所以南段的部分沒有鐵路高架化是沒有鐵路高架化所以當時有所謂一些替代方案"},{"start":19968.649,"end":19983.759,"text":"包括說我們希望在車輛基地周邊有一個擴大的一個都市計畫包括說是不是可以在水上的一個車站可以用大平台的一個形式來取代這個鐵路的高架化"},{"start":19987.141,"end":20003.184,"text":"因為大平台在水上的一個車站要做大平台在因為地方的整體的台一線跟這個跟鐵路太過於接近我想部長這個有時間我會邀請來嘉義縣看一下"},{"start":20003.644,"end":20018.584,"text":"所以那個地方又做大平台也有它在設計路段的一個障礙使得它的大平台的形狀沒有辦法那麼的那麼的完美可以說有關缺陷存在所以大家還是想說阿不然我就要回到這裡了"},{"start":20019.966,"end":20022.889,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就"},{"start":20037.045,"end":20052.735,"text":"剛剛講的車輛的一個調度基地在水上使得他的車輛不管是有沒有高架化車輛勢必要要塞要要行駛下來平面然後讓火車在平面有一個可以停車或者是"},{"start":20053.195,"end":20056.917,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":20074.148,"end":20096.446,"text":"那我們在部長你就任前的前部長這個李部長我有來邀請他包括說在於這個楷米颱風後他有來一次然後後來又有一次我們再請他以及我們鐵道局台鐵公司一次來來我們嘉義縣政府那也是討論了這個水上的鐵路高架化"},{"start":20096.986,"end":20112.041,"text":"那當時李孟彥前部長他有承諾說好他可以重新來評估水上的鐵路高架化那我們現在要請教部長的是說那這個李前部長的他這個承諾對你來說依然有效嗎"},{"start":20113.15,"end":20139.896,"text":"報告委員當然有效政府是延續的所以之前部長答應的部分那就是交通部的一個政策交通部的政策會延續來做這個沒有問題那因為現在我覺得嘉義在這幾年的這個發展的速度其實相當的快雖然之前的可行性評估可言的部分沒有順利來通過但是現在嘉義的發展跟過去不一樣或許我們可以一起來討論說可言的一些內容看要怎麼樣讓它比較符合實際的需求好"},{"start":20140.416,"end":20151.002,"text":"那當然是說因為如果要重新進行這個水上的鐵路高架評估也是需要我們嘉義縣政府再提出計畫來那我們縣長也針對這件事現在正在評估中那我們還是希望說因為整體的一個嘉義的開發我們知道從科學園區從水上南進的一個產業園區甚至到中埔的產業園區水上是一個樞紐一個核心的地方"},{"start":20167.37,"end":20182.854,"text":"所以這個地方對於交通的需求是確實是有的阿不就是高價化一直是卡住然後現在到底兩個案之間大平台跟高價化就變成兩個案在這邊打劫我希望說部長你可以這兩個案至長的門檻都一樣對"},{"start":20187.295,"end":20194.703,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":20207.017,"end":20230.33,"text":"要更加回饋因為你一個調度基地你就把它放在水上事實上你對於這個地方我是希望說我們交通部可以就不要只要用這個經濟效益的這麼冷冰冰的數字你永遠知道說你打卡丁幣設施就放在這裡你不要用冷冰冰的數字說你接下來你以後的交通現象你也是都要比照大家的地方所在不夠你就買我我覺得部長你可以"},{"start":20234.252,"end":20251.524,"text":"播個時間,在台灣跟他一樣,我跟您介紹一下那裡大概的一個地形,以及現在的水上車站,因為它就是我剛講的台一線跟交流道太近,又有紅綠燈的因素,所以那裡剛才最下班時間是嚴重的塞車,"},{"start":20252.905,"end":20270.175,"text":"阿所以這個東西急需解決,否則我希望說,你把我們這個地方可以在任內做了一個決定,然後把這些問題把它解決掉。我就跟鐵道局長一起過去找一看。好,那我會來找個時間,麻煩部長你幫我把出這個時間,我們來研究一下。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝蔡育瑜委員。接下來有請葉元之委員發言。"},{"start":20292.655,"end":20321.221,"text":"我們麻煩請部長 謝謝好 陳部長部長好恭喜恭喜部長當然今天第一次啦 您來立法院我也是要針對我們板橋的相關鐵道建設來跟您爭取一下因為想要讓您瞭解一下狀況好那我主要是要講兩條啦第一條就是所謂太阪輕軌我們不知道你對太阪輕軌有瞭解嗎目前正在進行可行性研究可行性研究"},{"start":20321.601,"end":20346.464,"text":"他是會經過我們板橋新莊土城跟中河大概全程大概是10.3公里經過14個車站對於我們板橋的發展是特別重要但是我對於這個太阪金軌所謂可行性評估他的這個所謂的進度我其實是不太滿意我跟你報告一下第一次去年5月3號的時候新北市政府送交鐵道局鐵道局到8月16號退回"},{"start":20347.205,"end":20369.152,"text":"然後到了11月27號就去年那新北市政府再送一次鐵道局在今年2月出審那再退回新北市政府在5月13號的時候再一次送鐵道局那當時在這個中間我也是在這個交通委員會諮詢李孟彥部長就請他說可不可以加快速度結果我6月13號諮詢"},{"start":20371.013,"end":20392.934,"text":"中間又隔一個多月又退那退的理由是什麼退的理由有幾個我是可以接受的但有幾個我是不能接受的第一個是說希望相關的財務成本的標準要跟五態一致這個OK這個原本就應該第二個他居然在質疑我們太阪輕軌的效益"},{"start":20393.895,"end":20418.931,"text":"這個我就非常不能接受為什麼他說他的講法是講說因為這個太阪輕軌的運量剛好達標而已但我覺得看一個輕軌的建設不是這麼狹隘更何況去年9月的時候前前交通部長王國才到我們板橋另外一區因為我們板橋兩區到我們板橋另外一區跟當地的板橋民眾承諾說要蓋太阪輕軌的攝後支線"},{"start":20421.365,"end":20429.397,"text":"那我也樂觀其成但我不理解的是既然你都已經承諾要蓋支線結果你在主線的可行性評估在卡"},{"start":20431.474,"end":20451.265,"text":"因為可行性評估是什麼意思可行性評估就是可不可行嘛就像剛剛蔡議委員講說嘉義他們有一個可行性評估沒過嘛那如果王國才部長他都認為要蓋支線了那請教一下主線還需要可行性評估還需要評估效益嗎代表他已經覺得有效益他才會去承諾支線啊部長對吧"},{"start":20452.205,"end":20469.453,"text":"所以如果今天你認為主線沒有效益那你去年王國才就是在欺騙選民嘛他是在一個信賴台灣的說明會上面那我覺得我們板橋選民是不能夠被接受欺騙的所以這個效益的部分除了運量評估之外他這個"},{"start":20470.834,"end":20477.176,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》"},{"start":20491.94,"end":20512.283,"text":"透過這些都市計畫的推動到時候會進行都市更新會帶動產業還有人口的進駐所以到時候的運量不是用現在的運量來評估啦所以我希望說部長既然這個以王國才所說根本就是一定要做的那為什麼我們要這樣卡一卡去我都不太懂啊"},{"start":20512.643,"end":20532.183,"text":"報告委員其實這種公共建設尤其是交通的部分我們當然希望公共運輸可以量更大一點希望大家都去搭公共運輸所以它的網路的便捷是相當重要這第一點第二點您剛剛所說的這個效益的部分您確實也提到了重點它經過一些重劃區未來它的運量可能需求是會增加的"},{"start":20532.603,"end":20550.754,"text":"所以我們要看交通的建設是很多...因為我時間有限代表說你認同我講的話那接下來我們講下去我覺得時間上可以再加速因為呢他這一次就今年7月26號退回的理由其中有一個叫做他說因為這個輕軌會經過我們台六四公路"},{"start":20551.434,"end":20570.549,"text":"他說希望重新評估跟台六十四公路的一些因為太近了萬一未來台六四要維修補強會不會有問題說要繼續研議但我現在不懂的就是台六四在這邊已經那麼多年了如果說你認為有這樣的問題你在第一次新北市政府送可行性評估的時候你為什麼不能跟他講"},{"start":20571.584,"end":20587.529,"text":"你為什麼要到第三次你才跟他說那你再去研究一下台六四那你這就在卡我們我不曉得說為什麼一個地方這麼希望的一個輕軌的建設我們交通部在公文旅行就是說你感覺就是我發問一個個單位"},{"start":20589.129,"end":20611.078,"text":"你們二十天有意見就在二十天內回覆二十天回覆之後我們再來看一看我再把相關意見再退回地方政府你們再研究一下然後如此這樣一來一往一來一往這兩三年就過去了所以我不知道說不然因為你也是民意代表出身的你也知道地方的需求我們都希望能夠加速可不可以針對這個可行性評估你就召開一個專案會議"},{"start":20612.899,"end":20627.701,"text":"馬克機關叫來問他們到底有什麼意見一致講清楚你不要說我發文給你你有意見這樣沒完沒了其實我6月13號那時候就請之前部長這樣做鐵道局後面是鐵道局長嘛你也在嘛但是你在這邊備完巡回去之後就忘記了啊"},{"start":20627.881,"end":20650.239,"text":"所以隔了一個多月之後又這樣啊我們不能接受就是這個原因嘛我們到時候部長您可不可以直接跟鐵道局長講請他召開專案會議叫他趕快審查的單位其實相當多啦確實您所說的不是啦你如果是跟文發給他們這樣表達意見那沒完沒了啦單位大家都一次提出一些問題那真的會拖滿久所以我會請鐵道局長就是召開專案會議"},{"start":20651.98,"end":20678.405,"text":"跨部門的這個協商的部分跟跨部門的意見一次整合起來,讓新北市政府可以更快速的把所有的問題解決掉,趕快讓...對嘛,部長那種態度就對了,跟鐵道局長講一下,上一次我們都白講了,對,所以...所以什麼時候會...這個肯定評估什麼時候會...會通過?專案會議什麼時候會召開?請問一下鐵道局長。沒問題的話你都在那邊呼嚨了嗎?包委員我們一個月內來處理,是。蛤?什麼?一個月內。蛤?一個月喔?"},{"start":20679.932,"end":20706.551,"text":"因為人家還要他送過去之後還要再一個月處理因為我們還要了解新北市政府現在整個報告準備的狀態我們盡量來努力加快因為拖很久如果今天說這個東西我們的新北市政府先回來之後我們趕快來召開好不好新北市政府那邊還不回來那部長拜託這是我們關心的所以利用第一次機會跟你報告第二個我很簡單一分鐘講一下就是我們那邊有一個萬大二期捷運"},{"start":20707.432,"end":20726.009,"text":"他其實已經就是動工了但是因為他其中有一段土層段因為之前疫情導致那個缺工缺料然後成本提高所以修正計畫要增加200多億啦中央負擔100億那這個東西已經交通部好像據我了解8月23號已經報告請政院那其實這沒有什麼爭議"},{"start":20727.17,"end":20743.054,"text":"就希望說部長可以跟院長講一下好就是說趕快核定我們地方這個部分已經抱怨了對抱怨就跟因為這沒有爭議啦所以不像可行性評估一樣還要還要做那麼多的文書作業我們到行政院去就請他行政院做趕快幫我們通過一下好我們去行政院好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝好謝謝葉元之委員接下來有請徐欣盈委員發言"},{"start":20763.282,"end":20767.584,"text":"好,謝謝主席,本席有請陳部長好,交通部陳部長部長好,我想昭偉您也辛苦了,我們魯昭偉還有陳部長今天從早上一直到現在,所以我想我應該是最後一個那我諮詢完你們大家就可以好好休息了"},{"start":20792.113,"end":20818.538,"text":"那陳部長您剛履新那我們的賴總統跟總院長對您都深具信心那我本身也是所以很希望您這個交通部長可以好好地做久一點因為我上任才幾個月半年左右我們遇三個交通部長所以首先您剛上任的時候曾經有說過九月起要"},{"start":20820.049,"end":20834.627,"text":"加強執法要增加這個見警率那本席首先請教您您知道我國公路總里程是多少公里嗎總里程公路我們的公路總里程是多少公里"},{"start":20835.728,"end":20842.597,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":20850.788,"end":20866.195,"text":"那所以如果說按照部長所說的要達到您增加見警率的目標效益您看要多少警力?有沒有顧上過?我之前其實對於行人道安的部分我剛剛早上也都有說明過我其實講的方法是很完整啦齁"},{"start":20866.795,"end":20896.076,"text":"這個只是其中一環我說在工程面要窮盡一切的可能性去改善工程面的部分在道路上面改善第二針對交通安全的觀念的教育跟宣導我們必須要落實我是針對見警率對沒有錯那第三我才是要說執法的部分執法有科技執法當然也有見警率的部分而見警率的部分當時交通部的幕僚們給我的建議是這個樣子他們給的建議是說在高度風險的地方可能有需要增加見警率我們不是全面"},{"start":20897.357,"end":20910.812,"text":"所以這可能是文字的誤解說法的誤解我早上有說蠻遺憾的就是說大家只看那個媒體報導的標題但我裡面講的內文沒有人在看只看標題會以為我只講見檢疫但實際上我不是這樣說的"},{"start":20912.567,"end":20936.176,"text":"對 所以您剛剛也有提到現在已經進入AI時代了嘛所以連手機都有AI所以本席在這裡就是您一定要調整你見警率的思維這個沒有問題如果委員覺得說增加見警率不會是未來處理行人道安的一個好方法那未來我們交通部就不講見警率的部分因為坦白說執法的這個層面不是交通部該做的"},{"start":20936.536,"end":20961.895,"text":"也不是我們能做的是內政部警政署做的因為您上任說了嘛大家就會去追這個好那沒關係所以這個現在警力不足啦警力不足所以在交通部分要能夠加強我想AI時代還有包括科技執法您剛剛有提到科技執法但是您上任之後有沒有了解到其實科技執法"},{"start":20962.775,"end":20991.862,"text":"這麼多年也沒有很多年就這幾年下來其實造成民怨非常大您知道這件事嗎這個我理解我是地方民意代表出身的事實上我聽到大家只要有收到紅單都一定是抱怨有的不一定是因為接到紅單的抱怨那科技執法也有它很多這個不當的地方執行面的部分所以本席在這裡要請您一定要回去瞭解跟您報告連科技執法這一面也不是交通部管的是內政部管的"},{"start":20992.122,"end":20995.803,"text":"你還記得今年八月你有來新竹一趟,我們還有碰到面,是哪一場?"},{"start":21011.44,"end":21039.479,"text":"客家的那個對,藝名祭嘛,在新埔藝名廟那天非常的熱那一天非常熱,對那你們那一天您跟卓院長是搭高鐵還是坐公務車下來?我是坐公務車您是坐公務車?那卓院長呢?你們不是一起的?我們不是一起的沒有一起齁?沒有一起所以您要說的塞車我有遇到,我知道我提早差不多一個小時從台北出發才到達所以在哪一段塞?"},{"start":21040.356,"end":21058.298,"text":"就楊梅那一段對楊梅一下來然後你開始塞湖口就到了是是是這個呢是大概常常在走一高的很多全國的民眾大概就知道所以這一塊我們有賴這個所謂的羊頭高架道路"},{"start":21058.959,"end":21078.488,"text":"那這個部分也要請我們交通部可以加速來進行報告委員這個部分加速進行之外我最近也請我們的運援所跟我們每一個單位包含高工局大家一起來研究在工程完成因為工程完成至少還要5、6年5、6年之內的這段時間我們要怎麼改善"},{"start":21078.948,"end":21099.454,"text":"例如說公共運輸怎麼加強或者科技園區裡面有沒有可能會有接駁車之類的讓大家盡量不要開這麼多車就高速公路短時間這五六年還是要想辦法去解決對很好對這些配套還是要給我們那除了羊頭高架當然我們竹北交流道那個已經是20年的這個問題"},{"start":21101.215,"end":21115.071,"text":"所以我想現在也應該在進行中目前有在做評估了所以我們希望陳部長上來能夠非常的重視然後能夠全力的支持讓我們能夠加速進行是這個部分我們來加速"},{"start":21116.553,"end":21137.376,"text":"那最後本席要特別提就是說我們的不管高速公路、快速道路或甚至鐵道周邊的住戶常常會受到噪音的干擾那像我們新竹就有一些部分路段的民眾不斷的反應而且那個噪音的分貝值已經都"},{"start":21137.856,"end":21152.403,"text":"已經達標了已經達標了那有些就算沒有達標的部長有些就算沒有達標的比如說你72分貝可是我只測到60或是65那我要給部長一個概念就是"},{"start":21153.183,"end":21168.496,"text":"你測這個分貝數沒達標但是它長期在這種環境下現代人是受不了的那本席要特別跟您講在休會期間我們特別去會堪當地的住戶說那個噪音大到他養的豬都不生了"},{"start":21169.016,"end":21188.281,"text":"你看連動物豬都不能生他都生不出來了動植物都受影響了所以我們希望交通部這種我們民意代表反映而且地方上已經受苦連連除了豬不生我們的民眾人啊人的感受是什麼他常常早上"},{"start":21189.261,"end":21205.036,"text":"以為車子撞到他家了你看聲音有多大他以為他家被車子撞上來了所以我們希望我們提出來的交通部要重視能夠盡快的給我們這個隔音牆的補助可以嗎我們來朝正向來討論好不好"},{"start":21206.858,"end":21227.061,"text":"要苦民所苦啊其實你看連豬都受不了到生不出來了你看人每天住在那裡所以我們這一塊我們要請部長還有我們這個而這裡面當然可能是公路局因為那個我去會刊的是快速道路麻煩一定要重視我們跟委員一起來努力好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝學卿委員這個很重要啊隔音講要做好不然會少子化問題會更嚴重"},{"start":21237.674,"end":21253.811,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。六、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":21254.899,"end":21279.116,"text":"報告及質詢完畢。二、委員林國成、劉建國、傅坤祺所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料及未及答覆的部分,請相關機關盡速以書面答覆。今天會到這裡結束,現在散會。謝謝。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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«雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就"},{"start":175.244,"end":190.946,"text":"剛剛講的車輛的一個調度基地在水上使得他的車輛不管是有沒有高架化車輛勢必要要塞要要行駛下來平面然後讓火車在平面有一個可以停車或者是"},{"start":191.386,"end":195.248,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":212.356,"end":234.657,"text":"那我們在部長你就任前的前部長這個李部長我有來邀請他包括說在於這個楷米颱風後他有來一次然後後來又有一次我們再請他以及我們鐵道局台鐵公司一次來來我們嘉義縣政府那也是討論了這個水上的鐵路高架化"},{"start":235.197,"end":250.229,"text":"那當時李孟彥前部長他有承諾說好他可以重新來評估水上的鐵路高架化那我們現在要請教部長的是說那這個李前部長的他這個承諾對你來說依然有效嗎"},{"start":251.338,"end":278.104,"text":"報告委員當然有效政府是延續的所以之前部長答應的部分那就是交通部的一個政策那交通部的政策會延續來做這個沒有問題那因為現在我覺得嘉義在這幾年的這個發展的速度其實相當的快雖然之前的可行性評估可言的部分沒有順利來通過但是現在嘉義的發展跟過去不一樣或許我們可以一起來討論說可言的一些內容看要怎麼樣讓它比較符合實際的需求好"},{"start":278.744,"end":279.965,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":308.604,"end":311.167,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》"},{"start":325.503,"end":332.911,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":345.205,"end":368.654,"text":"要更加回饋因為你一個調度基地你就把它放在水上事實上你對於這個地方我是希望說我們交通部可以就不要只要用這個經濟效益的這麼冷冰冰的數字你永遠知道說你打卡丁幣設施的放在這你不要用冷冰冰的數字說你接下來你以後的交通現象你也是都要比照每個所在受力不夠你就賣了"},{"start":369.674,"end":389.733,"text":"我估計部長你可以撥個時間在台灣跟他一樣我跟您介紹一下那裡大概的一個地形以及現在的水上車帳因為它就是我剛講的台一線跟交流道太近又有紅綠燈的因素所以那裡剛才最下班時間是嚴重的塞車"},{"start":391.114,"end":403.569,"text":"阿所以這個東西急需解決,否則我希望說,你把我們這個地方可以在任內做了一個決定,然後把這些問題把它解決掉。我就跟鐵道局長一起過去看看。好,那我會來找個時間,麻煩部長你幫他把出時間,我們來研究一下。好,謝謝委員,謝謝。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:01:19 - 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非常驚人 我是用恐怖兩個字來形容人數成長是8.48%但交通死傷率增加93.48%這顯然就不純粹是因為人數增加的增加嘛那包含了 剛剛其實部長也提到嘛"},{"start":147.35,"end":162.862,"text":"就是外籍人士對我國交通國情不熟悉在交通文化適應過程當中所產生的一個風險問題以今年上半年來說你知道我們的外籍人士交通死傷人數成長多少嗎"},{"start":165.489,"end":193.712,"text":"我告訴您5.4%那又預計要再創歷史新高紀錄這些都是我先講背景我希望部長真的是能夠好好去想一想這外籍人士在臺灣的交通安全問題但是有一點我就要跟部長稍微抱怨一下112年審計部的報告其實就已經針對外籍人士交通死傷大幅增加提醒過交通部"},{"start":194.392,"end":217.954,"text":"但我看到交通部的回應坦白講我不是很滿意啦交通部說會主動媒合有考照需求之外籍人士參加機車駕駛訓練我想問部長這就是我們交通部能夠講出克服外籍人士在台灣的所謂的交通風險大增的唯一解方嗎"},{"start":219.84,"end":240.758,"text":"應該不會是只有這方面其實教育宣導的部分相當重要不過教育宣導的部分又牽扯到文字跟語文的部分那這個部分其實交通部應該要做多國語言讓外籍人士看得懂的部分應該要多加強因為部長你是新上來那過去交通部對審計部回復這種態度我直接用三個字來形容太敷衍了"},{"start":241.778,"end":262.846,"text":"但是我覺得這個也不能酸到部長你頭上畢竟你新上來可是我認為部長這個事情你要放在心上事實上李多惠他把他騎機車上路的影片發布之後真的就很多的台灣的網友就提醒李多惠要注意台灣的交通狀況因為"},{"start":264.807,"end":280.475,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。五、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。六、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":287.759,"end":311.49,"text":"我們對於我們在招募外籍的人才甚至外國的朋友來台灣觀光都會有負面影響他會覺得你不安全會害怕那麼同樣的CNN就曾經以所謂的地域為名來報導台灣外籍人士死傷過多認為這不利觀光所以這邊我要拜託部長"},{"start":312.57,"end":336.408,"text":"觀光跟道安都是交通部的核心業務嘛對不對所以我希望交通部可以針對外籍人士死傷增加的問題提出專門的一個報告跟解決的方案能夠來大幅降低這種狀況好不好好沒問題下一個我想請教那個部長我們歷年行人死傷人數最多是哪一年行人死傷對"},{"start":340.765,"end":361.433,"text":"這個數字部長你要熟悉一下107年嗎其實是去年就是2023年全國死傷人數高達17660人那交通部今年的報告跟大家講說到2023年底行人安全跟耗資設施改善了一萬處對不對"},{"start":362.994,"end":379.272,"text":"這一點我覺得有改善我覺得給交通部拍拍手啦但是我想請教部長今年上半年行人死亡人數較去年同期是增加還是減少報告委員很遺憾的是增加對而且增加5.8個百分比其實是蠻多的"},{"start":379.893,"end":397.868,"text":"那就出現一個根本的問題為什麼改善一萬處設施行人死亡數還是上升部長什麼原因報告委員這個部分各方面的努力都要做我剛剛講過工程也好或者是教育宣導也好執法也好都要做但是我們要去找到原因"},{"start":398.388,"end":417.57,"text":"我剛剛有報告過目前看起來有四成是因為違規包含21%是行車沒有禮讓行人另外19%是行人沒有依規定穿越馬路的部分那違規的部分是目前我們看到最高的我提醒部長一件事情就慢慢把原因找出來很重要"},{"start":418.351,"end":432.901,"text":"但是事實上交通部我們像本席如果交通部對行人交通改善需要的經費我們一定都是很努力的支持但我不希望見到說今天軟液體經費我們很努力的來支持交通部結果我發現"},{"start":433.601,"end":452.956,"text":"你改善了這麼多最後死亡人數還是不斷的上升那這一點顯然就變成是恐怕除了你在改善這些交通設施之外還有更多要努力的地方是沒有錯包含我剛剛說的教育的部分還有違規的這個部分看要怎麼讓違規的次數可以降低跟比例可以降低好"},{"start":453.436,"end":474.678,"text":"那最後我想有一個問題因為事實上我剛剛講這些交通事故哪一個年齡層交通事故最嚴重你知道嗎比較年長對那因為時間到了我就不再多述但是我希望對於高齡者行人的一個交通的安全問題真的也請部長多多上心謝謝你謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:53:08 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14:01:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154907","gazette":{"lineno":1438,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（13時53分）有請陳部長。"],["主席：好，陳部長。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：有一項議題我想請部長來注意，但是在談議題之前，我想請教一下部長，你知道現在照片上的這一位是誰嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：不知道。"],["羅委員智強：我給你提示一下，韓國籍的啦啦隊員。"],["陳部長世凱：李多慧是不是？"],["羅委員智強：答對了。他日前取得就業金卡，也考取了機車駕照，我想請教部長，你覺得李多慧在臺灣騎機車安全嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：要看韓國那邊的交通文化，我是比較少去韓國，我不曉得韓國的機車多不多。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得部長有點到一個重點，交通文化不同，其實也就是我們說外籍人士在臺灣騎車的一個風險，就是他的慣性等等不同。所以我接下來就要切入正題，近年來臺灣缺工，政府也積極開放引進外籍的勞動力人才，到目前合法居留在我國的外籍人士，從108年的78.5萬人增加到112年的85.2萬人，成長幅度大概是8.48%。但是我想請教部長，你知道從108年到112年同期，外籍人士交通事故死傷人數增加多少幅度嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我現在沒有掌握外籍人士的這個數字。"],["羅委員智強：好，我也不會突襲你，因為這個數字比較細。我告訴你，從6,213人增加到1萬2,021人，漲幅高達93.48%，我不知道部長看到這個數字的感覺是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：感覺到驚人。"],["羅委員智強：對，非常驚人，我是用「恐怖」兩個字來形容。人數成長是8.48%，但交通死傷率增加93.48%，這顯然就不純粹是因為人數增加而增加，包含了其實剛剛部長也提到，就是外籍人士對我國交通國情不熟悉，在交通文化適應過程當中所產生的一個風險問題。以今年上半年來說，你知道我們的外籍人士交通死傷人數成長多少嗎？我告訴你，5.4%，預計要再創歷史新高紀錄。","這些都是我先講的背景，我希望部長真的能夠好好的去想一想外籍人士在臺灣的交通安全問題，但是有一點我就要跟部長稍微抱怨一下，112年審計部的報告其實就已經針對外籍人士交通死傷大幅增加提醒過交通部，但我看到交通部的回應，坦白講，我不是很滿意啦！交通部說，會主動媒合有考照需求之外籍人士參加機車駕駛訓練。我想問部長，這就是交通部能夠講出克服外籍人士在臺灣的交通風險大增的唯一解方嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：應該不會是只有這方面，其實教育宣導的部分相當重要，不過教育宣導的部分又牽扯到文字跟語文的部分，這個部分其實交通部應該要做多國語言，讓外籍人士看得懂的部分應該要多加強。"],["羅委員智強：因為部長你是新上來，過去交通部對審計部這種回復的態度，我直接用三個字來形容──「太敷衍」了。但是我覺得這個也不能算到部長頭上，畢竟你新上來，可是我認為這個事情部長你要放在心上。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["羅委員智強：事實上李多慧把她騎機車上路的影片發布之後，真的就有很多臺灣網友就提醒李多慧要注意臺灣的交通狀況，因為李多慧的廣大粉絲並不希望李多慧因融入臺灣而在交通上增加風險，這個是所有外籍人士都會共同面臨的問題。","同樣的，涉及外籍人士的交通意外，除了剛剛講的語言、法律、保險等等問題，它也會衝擊到一件事情，就是對於我們在招募外籍人才，甚至外國朋友來臺灣觀光都會有負面影響，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["羅委員智強：他會覺得你不安全、會害怕。同樣的，CNN就曾經以「地獄」為名來報導臺灣外籍人士死傷過多的情況，認為這不利觀光。所以我要拜託部長，觀光跟道安都是交通部的核心業務，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["羅委員智強：所以我希望交通部可以針對外籍人士死傷增加的問題提出專門的報告跟解決方案，來大幅降低這種狀況，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["羅委員智強：下一個我想請教部長的是，歷年行人死傷人數最多的是哪一年？"],["陳部長世凱：行人死傷？"],["羅委員智強：對，這個數字部長要熟悉一下了。"],["陳部長世凱：107年嗎？"],["羅委員智強：其實是去年，就是2023年，全國死傷人數高達1萬7,660人。交通部今年的報告跟大家講，到2023年底，行人安全跟號誌設施改善了一萬處。這一點我覺得有改善，也給交通部拍拍手。但是我想請教部長，今年上半年行人死亡人數較去年同期是增加還是減少？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，很遺憾的是增加。"],["羅委員智強：對，而且增加5.8個百分比，其實是滿多的。那就出現一個根本的問題，為什麼改善一萬處設施，行人死亡數還是上升？部長，什麼原因？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分各方面的努力都要做，我剛剛講過，工程也好，教育宣導也好，執法也好，都要做，但是我們要去找到原因。我剛剛有報告過，目前看起來有四成是因為違規，包含21%是行車沒有禮讓行人，另外19%是行人沒有依規定穿越馬路，違規的部分是目前我們看到最高的，我們現在來克服違規的部分。"],["羅委員智強：我提醒部長一件事情，把原因找出來很重要。事實上，如果交通部對行人交通改善需要經費，我們一定都是很努力的支持，但我們不希望見到，今天我們很努力的來支持交通部的軟硬體經費，結果發現改善了這麼多，最後死亡人數還是不斷地上升。這一點顯然就變成是，除了改善這些交通設施之外，恐怕還有更多要努力的地方。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯，包含我剛剛說教育的部分，還有違規的部分，看要怎麼讓違規的次數跟比例可以降低。"],["羅委員智強：最後我有一個問題，我剛剛講這些交通事故，哪一個年齡層交通事故最嚴重，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：比較年長者。"],["羅委員智強：對。因為時間到了，我就不再多述，但是我希望對於高齡者的行人交通安全問題，真的也請部長多多上心。謝謝你。"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題，謝謝委員"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。","接下來有請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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我們一樣先請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":13.547,"end":35.914,"text":"好部長委員好部長辛苦了1點40分我想說你應該還沒用午餐但是我想這個年輕人年輕力壯應該撐得住啦OK沒問題謝謝所以部長我是第一次在這個交通委員會正式的業務質詢那我想這個部長跟我也是老交情的但是我們第一次面對面的來做這個質詢的工作我想今天心情此刻的心情跟上午應該還是有點不一樣了啦應該已經慢慢習慣了這個節奏"},{"start":37.995,"end":56.63,"text":"那部長這兩天來拜會的時候我也跟部長提一個期許我想今年交通委員會一年換三個部長那我們期待我們陳世凱部長未來三年同一個部長就好了我們的交通政策希望能夠延續下去那就來進行我的主題我想這個最近大家這禮拜關心到我們台中的這個公車問題"},{"start":57.771,"end":79.257,"text":"那有一個女大生過馬路招公車撞起這個不幸的這個事故我想最主要的問題當然大家還是回到這個行人地獄的問題我們從這個街景圖可以看到以目前這個現狀台中車站旁邊的道路也是台灣多數道路的形態這個部長你覺得這個道路看起來你第一個直覺是什麼直覺啊對"},{"start":85.157,"end":102.346,"text":"沒關係你就頂加你的直覺就好我們看我們看我們的這個意見沒有一致沒有一致我可以跟你講我分享我的直覺是什麼我的感覺他蠻寬敞的什麼寬敞其實不寬啊中山路我熟他其實不寬但照片看起來是寬敞的照片看起來人行道的設置是有的"},{"start":104.315,"end":123.629,"text":"這都看起來就是道路明顯的比這個人行道寬敞很多啦你也看到你剛才提到說的確中山路本身想像中路幅不寬但是也看到旁邊有一輛微停的計程車它是停在路側端但旁邊路側端這邊這一條路其實它還要很寬的路可以通過"},{"start":124.409,"end":145.345,"text":"是所以回到什麼問題就回到說今天到底就像剛剛牛委員講的一樣今天你這個部長新上任之後要跟過去的部長有什麼不一樣我們現在都提到說希望台灣的交通的部會這個交通的這個想法能夠從車本的交通轉換成人本交通我想今天這個道路很明顯的就在告訴部長說"},{"start":147.1,"end":162.82,"text":"雖然中山路已經不寬但他居然旁邊危停的計程車停在那裡他的路還過得去就表示這個道路設計是有問題他不是為了行人設計他是為了讓大家方便停車啊有人行道但不夠寬我們看下一張齁部長"},{"start":164.302,"end":191.085,"text":"當然是這個民間團體這個我從這個標線改造台灣路的這個臉書專頁上面拿下來這個圖我想這兩年這幾年下來很多人本交通的團體提供了交通部也提供民意代表很多的想法跟意見希望說能夠讓台灣的這個道路能夠走向這個人本交通的這個問題因為其實大家都知道說最嚴重的大家常常講說因為這個國外跟台灣的民情不同但是我們放諸四海"},{"start":191.986,"end":216.286,"text":"全世界各國不然是荷蘭也好、日本也好、其他國家我們現在看到的好像這個人行道、人行、日本交通做得比較好的國家他們當年道路也是比較寬的慢慢的透過政府的溝通、社會的溝通慢慢的做到今天的樣子那我想問一下部長你對於這樣子的溝通工作你做好準備嗎?就像其實我剛剛跟女委員的問題有點類似因為我們都當過地方民意代表"},{"start":217.206,"end":246.866,"text":"今天交通部的各位官員你們很專業也願意出很多錢我們出了幾百億希望去改善各地方的交通但是落到地方之後會遇到什麼障礙部長你看清楚吧這個我相當清楚其實行人路權的這個觀念其實在北部相對是比較簡單的你要限縮道路然後讓人行道能夠寬闊一點是比較容易的但坦白說在我們中部或者是在南部要做這方面的溝通其實我覺得在社會上的溝通要更加努力"},{"start":246.926,"end":248.907,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》"},{"start":264.355,"end":279.875,"text":"坦白說是這樣子但現在可以嗎?現在都不行了現在當然不行但是現在我們現在做人行道我坦白講最近的確感謝交通部也感謝內政部撥了很多款項到地方要來做人行道會議看的時候對啊里長就跳出來講啦我沒地方停車"},{"start":280.856,"end":301.976,"text":"我道路不夠寬我有商店我有零停的問題所以這個問題我想問一下我們新的這個陳世凱部長你未來要怎麼樣來做社會溝通要怎麼樣去推動你除了把錢不下去把責任交給地方政府去執行之外那交通部作為全國這個預算最多最大的部會我們要怎麼樣去改變要怎麼樣去推動人本交通"},{"start":302.677,"end":320.243,"text":"我覺得這個觀念除了宣導跟教育之外很重要的是政府要有決心交通部的部分有決心要這麼做不過坦白說因為委員您也是從地方的民意代表上來的您也很清楚有時候地方政府"},{"start":320.683,"end":324.785,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":344.616,"end":355.548,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":366.579,"end":391.294,"text":"我想每年政府編列了非常多的這個宣傳預算那大家在野黨我們身為在野黨也常詬病說你們到底把錢花到哪裡去我想這就是一個部分就是說今天既然你要推動人本交通既然今天你希望能夠讓大眾去接受這樣的觀念那你們的這個所謂的行銷政策的預算就應該去做這件事情就像我講當年大安全貿多少人在罵但是又不推成了嗎"},{"start":392.214,"end":394.915,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":413.1,"end":431.149,"text":"再來看到這個全國各縣市路口改善計畫我想這個也是盤點的過程裡面不管是民間通報數還是這個交通部通報數的確全台灣各處都非常的多但是其實以這一次我們講遺憾一點就這一次這個公車車禍的路口它其實並不在這個全國路口改善的這個範圍裡面"},{"start":433.01,"end":447.558,"text":"所以換句話說到底這個盤點的過程是不是有更客觀的數據跟標準可以去盤點這個數據因為你今天不管是民間提報的因為這個包含說透過這個民眾通報路口改善有637那交通部自己通報的是799這些數量"},{"start":450.441,"end":472.052,"text":"他怎麼而來?報告委員一方面是行人的這個傷亡的數字這個如果是高的地方當然就是我們優先要改善的地方那另外一個部分就是地方政府由他們來提報因為實際上地方的交通的路口哪裡比較危險需要急速的改善應該是地方政府會比中央政府更清楚所以有一大部分的數據是地方政府提報上來的"},{"start":473.112,"end":491.575,"text":"那有沒有更客觀的除了死亡人數之外我是希望說今天我今天在這邊質詢就是因為過去都是用這個邏輯在做事情就是啊這類似地方裝紅綠燈一樣啦你要先有A級車或我才能裝紅綠燈這很多地方政府這樣幹今天但我們要做的是今天交通部如果要盡量推動所謂人門交通要推動路口改善計畫"},{"start":492.276,"end":512.319,"text":"你除了看死亡人數之外有沒有預判預防的機制什麼樣的路口它應該被提報什麼樣的路口你應該編譯算改善不然每年真的我是說真的這兩年的確花了很多錢幾百億再去改善所謂的這個人行道路口改善但是其實說真的這個車禍死亡人數層數不窮啊死亡人數現在是上漲的是"},{"start":512.959,"end":531.269,"text":"因為行人事故他比去年同期他還是增加的所以這個數字我讓部長當作一個警惕我們希望明年看到數的時候他一定要下降大家要一起努力沒有錯這很重要那再來一樣這個公車交通事故當然這是大家的焦點放在台中但是我們去看數據其實認真調閱數據是一個很驚人的數字111年因為公車這種貨大貨車的大客車"},{"start":537.572,"end":551.614,"text":"不只是公營民營的這個交通則是公車死亡人數110.40去年43今年目前是13所以公車這個事情不是只有地方政府個別個別的去罵交通局長或去交通局長去裁罰公車業者"},{"start":552.93,"end":569.791,"text":"今天猜到這個數據我想交通部這個數據是你們統計出來的全國的數據那就表示我們公車可能業者也好或司機也好或是整個交通的這個問題也好它有系統性的問題它每年有這麼多人因為公車喔這是公車而已喔沒有算其他的什麼大卡車都沒有就是公車而已"},{"start":570.851,"end":590.851,"text":"一年有這麼多人因為公車而死亡所以不知道部長對這件事情有沒有什麼樣的想法你沒有提改善計畫嗎還是說就是各地方政府繼續各行其事臺北有臺北做法臺中有臺中做法高雄高雄做法那交通部做法是什麼報告委員目前齁我剛剛在幾位委員的詢問當中我都有回答就是說對於停等的這個強制性對於"},{"start":592.192,"end":609.121,"text":"大型的客車或者大型的貨車我們都有要求而且是強制的啦如果沒有做到一定會有罰則那個停等是左轉跟右轉的時候必須停等這是第一個第二個車上的一些預警系統其實我們也都一定的規範包含說這個盲點的這個影像的部分"},{"start":609.741,"end":627.45,"text":"每一台都有裝了每一台都有裝了那ADAS的部分目前裝的比例也非常的高所以這些設施的增加包含說停等的要求尤其是公車的部分我們要求他在停等的過程當中還要指叉確認也就是左邊看完右邊看右邊看完再往前看這些工作都有要求"},{"start":627.89,"end":642.474,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":657.638,"end":675.669,"text":"統計出來的結果能夠真的少一點我希望是這樣那再來最後一題最後一題稍微再給我一點時間有一個很嚴重的時事這個假車牌今年特別氾濫2022年939件2023年924件到今年到5月就已經837了我想今年可能破千"},{"start":676.61,"end":700.256,"text":"那這個假車牌當然有些網路論壇有提到說可能是因為所謂嚴重超速的這個規範變嚴之後很多的車牌他因為超速嘛所以被扣了所以他就去用偽造車牌那原因怎麼發生呢我先不細究今天時間不夠我們要談的是罰則的部分罰則的部分以現在來講是罰3600到18000部長你可以上網上蝦皮看一下假車牌多少錢啊是"},{"start":701.021,"end":716.83,"text":"你罰的前夕跟假車牌比假車牌便宜啊我講真的所以他根本罰的不痛不癢那我們看到目前的交通道交條例、處罰條例裡面看下一頁除了罰錢之外還有一個是可以牌照、扣腳我就已經有假車牌了"},{"start":718.018,"end":741.79,"text":"你還扣掉我的牌照那那個假車牌被扣掉意義在哪裡呢他還是可以去買個假車牌放上去啊所以這個邏輯問題就是說第一個你罰則已經比假車牌便宜了然後你又扣他的車牌那他去買一張不就好了嗎他買一張假的車牌放上去他繼續開在路上所以在罰則部分現有的條例裡面我認為你們有機會試用我們看下一頁"},{"start":743.735,"end":751.774,"text":"在相關的法律裡面他本來就應該要取得相關的合格證明那如果沒有的話第一個車輛應該理論上依法是可以沒入的吧"},{"start":752.694,"end":782.514,"text":"所以我希望說在假車牌這個問題上除了罰錢跟所謂你再扣繳息是沒有意義的之外對於車輛這個財產本身交通部有沒有機會去做執行所謂車輛摸輪行為部長這個部分可能條件上會比較嚴格但是委員您剛剛所提到的增加罰則的部分我們來研究然後通過立法院的同意我們大概就可以增加罰則是第一個第二個其實它是有刑責的用假車牌其實是有刑罰的部分那這個部分我們也可以來做討論那我們也可以來建議說看要不要修正"},{"start":782.956,"end":783.237,"text":"好,部長謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:39:44 - 13:52:50","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154906","gazette":{"lineno":1388,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（13時39分）好，謝謝主席，我們一樣先請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長辛苦了，1點40分，我想你應該還沒用午餐，但是我想年輕人年輕力壯，應該還撐得住啦！"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我是第一次在交通委員會正式的業務質詢，部長跟我也是老交情了，但是我們第一次面對面的來做這個質詢的工作，我想部長此刻的心情跟上午應該還是有點不一樣，應該已經慢慢習慣了這個節奏。部長這兩天來拜會的時候我也跟部長提了一個期許，今年交通部一年換三個部長，我們期待陳世凱部長未來三年同一個部長就好了，我們的交通政策希望能夠延續下去。","那就來進行我的主題，大家這個禮拜關心到我們臺中的公車問題，有一個女大生過馬路遭公車撞擊的不幸事故，我想最主要的問題當然還是回到行人地獄的問題，我們從這個街景圖可以看到，以目前臺中車站旁邊這個道路的現狀，也是臺灣多數道路的型態，對於這個道路部長看起來第一個直覺是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：直覺啊？"],["黃委員健豪：對，沒關係，你講你的直覺就好，看我們的意見有沒有一致，如果沒有一致，我可以跟你講我分享我的直覺是什麼。"],["陳部長世凱：我的感覺是它蠻寬敞的。"],["黃委員健豪：什麼很寬敞？"],["陳部長世凱：其實不寬啦！中山路我熟，它其實不寬，但照片看起來是寬敞的，人行道的設置是有的。"],["黃委員健豪：這個看起來就是道路明顯的比人行道寬敞很多啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員健豪：你剛才提到，的確中山路本身路幅不寬，但是可以看到旁邊有一輛違停的計程車，它是停在路側端，但旁邊路側端的這一條路其實還有很寬的路可以通過。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：所以回到什麼問題？就像剛剛林委員講的一樣，今天你這個部長新上任之後要跟過去的部長有什麼不一樣？我們現在都提到希望臺灣交通部會的想法能夠從車本的交通轉換成人本交通，我想今天這一個道路很明顯的就在告訴部長，雖然中山路已經不寬，但居然旁邊有違停的計程車停在那裡，它的路還過得去，就表示這個道路設計是有問題的，它不是為了行人設計，它是為了讓大家方便停車。"],["陳部長世凱：是，有人行道，但不夠寬。"],["黃委員健豪：我們看下一張照片，部長，這是我從民間團體──標線改造台灣路的臉書專頁截取的圖，我想這幾年下來很多人本交通的團體提供交通部，也提供民意代表很多的想法跟意見，希望能夠讓臺灣的道路走向人本交通。其實大家都知道，大家常常說國外跟臺灣的民情不同，但是我們放諸四海，全世界各國，不管是荷蘭也好、日本也好，或是我們現在看到人本交通做得比較好的其他國家，當年他們的道路也是比較寬的，透過政府的溝通、社會的溝通慢慢才做到今天這個樣子。","我想問一下部長，你對於這樣子的溝通工作做好準備了嗎？其實我跟剛剛牛委員的問題有點類似，因為我們都當過地方民意代表，今天交通部的各位官員你們很專業，也願意出很多錢，我們出了幾百億，希望去改善各地方的交通，但是落到地方之後會遇到什麼障礙，部長，你應該清楚吧？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我相當清楚，其實行人路權的這個觀念在北部相對是比較簡單的，你要限縮道路，然後讓人行道能夠寬闊一點是比較容易的，但坦白說，在我們中部或者是在南部，要做這方面的溝通，其實我覺得在社會上的溝通要更加努力一些。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我提供過去臺灣執行兩個與交通有關的案例，後來大家慢慢接受，現在也都是鐵律的法令，第一個就是戴安全帽，第二個叫做酒駕。當年大家都找民意代表喬，坦白說是這樣子，但現在可以嗎？現在都不行。"],["陳部長世凱：現在當然不行。"],["黃委員健豪：但是我們現在做人行道，坦白講，的確也感謝交通部、也感謝內政部撥了很多款項到地方要來做人行道，會勘的時候里長就跳出來講了，我沒地方停車、我道路不夠寬……"],["陳部長世凱：還有我有商店。"],["黃委員健豪：我有商店、我有臨停的問題，所以這個問題我想問一下新上任的陳世凱部長，你未來要怎麼樣來做社會溝通，要怎麼樣去推動？你除了把錢撥下去，把責任交給地方政府去執行之外，交通部作為全國預算最多、最大的部會，我們要怎麼樣去改變，要怎麼推動人本交通，你有想法嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得這個觀念除了宣導跟教育之外，很重要的是政府要有決心，交通部的部分有決心要這麼做，不過坦白說，委員您也是從地方的民意代表上來的，你也很清楚，有時候地方政府礙於地方民情的狀況底下，會有一些不太願意配合的部分。我覺得是這個樣子，我現在觀察到有一個點，就是社會對於行人路權的這個觀念越來越重，當社會的這個觀念越來越成熟的時候，其實政府要推動這件事就可以更簡單一點，所以我在交通部長任內，我會大力來推行這樣子的觀念，甚至我會主動到地方去跟地方政府溝通，當然我知道委員期許的應該會是更大幅度的修改一些交通上面的法令跟規則，讓這些東西能夠實際落實，這個部分我們也來做檢討。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我想不只是更多的經費跟法規，每年政府編列了非常多的宣傳預算，我們身為在野黨也常常詬病說你們到底把錢花到哪裡去，我想這就是一個部分，今天既然你要推動人本交通，既然今天你希望能夠讓大眾去接受這樣的觀念，那你們這個所謂行銷政策的預算就應該去做這些事情。就像我講的，當年規定戴安全帽，多少人在罵，但最後推成了；繫安全帶也很多人在罵，也推成了；酒駕有多少人在罵，說這樣不方便，鄉下沒有什麼公車、沒有計程車，我回不了家，現在也推成了。我想交通部每一任部長都有每一任部長的代表作，我期待陳部長你能夠把代表作放在人本交通，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分我來努力，人本交通是我們第一個最重要的工作。"],["黃委員健豪：再來看到全國各縣市路口改善計畫，我想在盤點的過程裡面，不管是民間通報數還是交通部通報數，的確全臺灣各處都非常的多，但是其實以這一次這個公車車禍的路口，它其實並不在這個全國路口改善的範圍裡面。換句話說，這個盤點的過程到底是不是有更客觀的數據跟標準可以去盤點這個數據？因為今天不管是民間提報的，這個包含透過民眾通報的路口改善有637處，交通部自己通報的是799處，這些數量怎麼而來？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，一方面是行人的傷亡數字如果是高的地方，當然就是我們優先要改善的地方。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["陳部長世凱：另外一個部分就是由地方政府來提報，因為實際上地方交通的路口哪裡比較危險，需要急速的改善，應該是地方政府會比中央政府更清楚，所以有一大部分的數據是地方政府提報上來的。"],["黃委員健豪：除了死亡人數之外，有沒有更客觀的？我是希望今天我在這邊質詢，因為過去都是用這個邏輯在做事情，就類似地方裝紅綠燈一樣，你要先有A級車禍，我才能裝紅綠燈，很多地方政府都這樣做，但今天交通部如果要推動所謂的人本交通、要推動路口改善計畫，除了看死亡人數之外，有沒有預判、預防的機制，什麼樣的路口應該被提報，什麼樣路口應該編列預算改善？不然這兩年在人行道、路口的改善上的確花了很多錢，有幾百億，但是其實說真的，車禍死亡的人數層出不窮，死亡人數現在是上升的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：尤其是行人事故，更比去年同期是增加的，所以這個數字我讓部長當作一個警惕，我們希望明年看到數字的時候一定要下降，不要再上升。"],["陳部長世凱：大家要一起努力，沒有錯，這很重要。"],["黃委員健豪：再來一樣是有關公車交通事故，當然這次大家的焦點放在臺中，但是我們去看數據，認真調閱數據會發現其實是很驚人的數字，因為公車這種大客車或者是公營、民營公車事故的死亡人數去年是43人，今年目前是13人，所以公車這個事情，不是只有個別去罵地方政府的交通局長，或是交通局長去裁罰公車業者，今天看到這個數據，我想這個數據是交通部統計出來的全國數據，那就表示我們的公車業者、司機，或是整個交通的問題可能有系統性的問題，才會每年有這麼多人因為公車，這是公車而已，沒有算其他大卡車等等，都沒有，就是公車而已，一年有這麼多人因為公車而死亡。不知道部長對這件事情有沒有什麼樣的想法，你沒有提改善計畫嗎？還是說就是各地方政府繼續各行其是，臺北有臺北的作法，臺中有臺中的作法，高雄有高雄的作法，那交通部的作法是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，剛剛在幾位委員的詢問當中我都有回答，對於停等的強制性，對於大型的客車或者大型的貨車我們都有要求，而且是強制的，如果沒有做到，一定會有罰則，停等是左轉跟右轉的時候必須停等，這是第一個。第二個，車上的一些預警系統其實我們也都有一定的規範，包含盲點影像的部分，每一台都有裝了；ADAS的部分，目前裝的比例也非常的高，所以這些設施的增加，包含停等的要求，尤其是公車的部分，我們要求他在停等的過程當中還要指差確認，也就是左邊看完右邊看、右邊看完再往前看，這些都有要求。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，的確這一次的事故，理論上預警系統它也有……"],["陳部長世凱：是，都有預警系統。"],["黃委員健豪：所以我還是覺得交通部應該用召回或是什麼樣方式重新去培養，讓公車司機或公車業者去認知到這件事情到底要怎麼執行。"],["陳部長世凱：其實法令面跟設備面都有，但就是執行面的部分我們希望更落實一點，讓公車業者強力去要求他們的駕駛一定要這麼做。"],["黃委員健豪：好。最後，公車的部分，我們希望明年的數字不要再破40了，希望今年統計出來的結果能夠真的少一點。"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望是這樣。"],["黃委員健豪：再來，最後一題，召委，對不起，再給我一點時間。有一個很嚴重的時事，假車牌今年特別氾濫，2022年539件，2023年924件，今年到5月就已經837件了，我想今年可能破千。關於假車牌，當然有些網路論壇有提到，可能是因為嚴重超速的規範變嚴之後，很多人因為超速車牌被扣了，所以他就去用偽造車牌，但原因是怎麼發生的？我先不細究，今天時間不夠，我們要談的是罰則的部分。罰則的部分，以現在來講是罰3,600元到1萬8,000元，部長，你可以上網、上蝦皮看一下假車牌多少錢，你罰的錢比假車牌還便宜！我講真的，所以他根本被罰得不痛不癢。目前的道交處罰條例裡面，除了罰錢之外，還有一個是可以牌照扣繳，但他就已經用假車牌了，你還扣繳他的牌照，那個假車牌被扣繳的意義在哪裡呢？他還是可以去買個假車牌放上去啊！所以這個是邏輯問題，第一個，你罰則已經比假車牌便宜了，然後你又扣他的車牌，他去買一張不就好了嗎？他買一張假的車牌放上去，他還是可以繼續開在路上。所以罰則的部分，在現有的條例裡面，我認為你們有機會可以適用。在相關的法律裡面，他本來就應該要取得相關的合格證明，如果沒有的話，第一個，理論上車輛依法是可以沒入的吧？所以我希望在假車牌這個問題上面，除了罰錢跟所謂你再扣繳其實是沒有意義的之外，對於車輛這個財產本身，部長，交通部有沒有機會去做執行車輛沒入的行為？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分可能條件上會比較嚴格，但是委員您剛剛所提到的增加罰則的部分，我們來研究，然後經過立法院的同意，我們大概就可以增加罰則，這是第一個。第二個，其實它是有刑責的，用假車牌其實是有刑罰的部分，這個部分我們可以來討論，也可以來建議說看要不要修正。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","接下來有請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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部長辛苦了 我們就先開始謝謝委員今天很多人對你進行靈魂拷問是 因為從大家從傳統的觀念來看算是破格就任交通部長 對不對那當然很多人講是要學習沒有沒有破格啦 不是破格一般來講 要不然你要具有非常深厚的專業素養要不然就是經過一定的歷練嘛所以大家媒體會這樣報導其實也是其他有的我的歷練其實也不少"},{"start":39.798,"end":52.933,"text":"好 喜悅不少 沒有關係但我希望我聽到的是你今天帶來我先問你一個問題就是你請問部長就任之後你想要給整個交通部帶來什麼改變我們國家大的交通政策會有什麼樣的創新跟調整"},{"start":54.062,"end":54.522,"text":"時間有限"},{"start":81.913,"end":110.775,"text":"四平八穩的話大概差不多就好當然這很正常但我希望聽到的其實說部長相對年輕的這個年齡相對沒有像傳統不管是學經歷或怎麼樣就就任交通部長其實我覺得你可以得分的地方是有魄力嘛你來帶來一個大的改變帶來一個很好的政策亮點我想這就是坐穩這個位置非常重要的一個特質我跟你做交換的分享今天我們專案報告的主題其實在談的是行人安全你剛剛第一個講到的就是安全那我們就順著安全往下談"},{"start":111.516,"end":112.537,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就"},{"start":134.284,"end":153.449,"text":"中央有時候是規劃的部分是中央或者是說設計整體規劃是中央但實際到地方的執行是地方政府那中央只有補助那為什麼會打折扣你就從地方的視角來分析這個事就看地方政府他們在發包的過程真的只是地方政府的問題嗎"},{"start":155.046,"end":182.176,"text":"部長你也當過議員我也當過議員你都很清楚嘛我們當民意代表有時候坦白說會到地方施工的過程會有這個建議那個建議對嘛我們要聽到是基層的聲音對不對你人行道拓寬對不對哇停車位不見了哇里長不高興了對不對或者是開車有需求的人不高興了你的人行人路權好的政策初衷到了地方因為你要跟縣市妥協到最後又陷入人車在爭奪路服這樣子的一個"},{"start":182.876,"end":187.58,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":208.939,"end":226.294,"text":"這個爭論的問題怎麼來解決你覺得你在做部長這樣子的一個任內你有沒有目標要把台灣從車本城市轉型變成人本跟大眾運輸為主的交通政策我在上任的時候第一天大家問我說要怎麼做我第一句話叫做人本交通人本交通"},{"start":227.355,"end":241.087,"text":"好 那我們就順著這個往下講我現在請問部長我原本不問編制我問我們整個交通部裡面針對公共汽車明年的預算大概是多少大概就好公共汽車啊公共汽車"},{"start":243.079,"end":261.239,"text":"四十億是公共汽車但那個TPAS的部分另外算TPAS其實也比例也非常是九十億但是裡面不是全部是公共汽車啦沒錯TPAS我本來就要另外算公共汽車就好如果把TPAS含進去啊我們這個公共汽車這樣子的一個運輸啊"},{"start":264.898,"end":288.724,"text":"加起來總額大概是179億左右但是東拉西扣比如說T-PASS佔了90億就像你講的不存在是公共汽車還有光是電動巴士的補助就佔了4、50億真正你能夠支持地方基層做公車路網跟路線調整的大概就像你剛剛所講的大概4、50億左右部長你覺得這樣夠嗎?"},{"start":290.251,"end":306.669,"text":"我覺得公共汽車的部分可以再加強但是我們在TPAS實行之後我有看到一個蠻特殊的數據TPAS實行之後捷運跟鐵路的這個運量有上來但是公車的運量沒有上來所以這個部分其實要做得更好一點為什麼公車運量沒有上來"},{"start":308.154,"end":327.37,"text":"幾個部分啦當然補助的部分我們盡量做因為需求提升了可是供給沒有提升嘛對不對對但是我們的供給不但沒有提升反而是下降的我覺得為什麼要強調供給提升這個會變成一個惡性循環我們今天如果要從車本交通轉型成人本交通你總得解決通勤族的問題吧通勤族上班我們希望他可以多使用人行道"},{"start":327.97,"end":340.641,"text":"那他不開車他怎麼上班呢?如果沒有好的公共汽車的接駁路線他怎麼到捷運站呢?這都老問題了可是如果部長你上任你可以講說我就針對這個事好好解決的話那我覺得那是值得期待的現在供給下降的問題是"},{"start":342.543,"end":357.36,"text":"業者退場啊司機缺額的問題沒有辦法解決啊你看這幾年我們針對公共汽車的預算中110年的48億左右到了113年我們現在是排除TPAS的狀況好像有增加但是因為那是電動公車的專業那個專項的預算到114年其實總體藍色的部分其實是沒有什麼變化的"},{"start":362.421,"end":371.468,"text":"可是這個沒有什麼變化能夠解決中間發生很大的兩件事第一叫業者退場嘛第二叫司機缺額嘛你現在新的挑戰你如果用舊的邏輯跟舊的預算的時候請問你怎麼解決這樣的問題部長"},{"start":375.735,"end":403.682,"text":"報告委員目前的做法您應該也都清楚但是如果有更新的做法可以建議我歡迎委員建議給我們我期待看到的是未來這個預算當然應該要逐年來做上升而且這個上升你不是說我又多編電動公車現在你業者換電動公車有什麼用呢沒有司機開有什麼用對不對你看是哪一些的政策細節可以來做設計讓公車的補貼要提升嘛你要讓業者有誘因進場嘛你要專案解決司機缺額的問題嘛"},{"start":404.762,"end":429.892,"text":"這些東西要不然你要有好的政策優惠要不然你就要有大量的預算支持嘛你這樣才有辦法讓各級的地方政府去配合讓中央跟地方的公車路線去做提升嘛公車路線去提升的時候才有意義那很多人會講啊預算什麼大家都要對不對馬路建設也要對不對軌道建設也要可是部長這我講你也很清楚搞一條捷運線多少錢好幾百億這一條捷運線能夠服務多少地方"},{"start":430.973,"end":445.193,"text":"頂多一個自家式的兩三個行政區嘛長一點三五個行政區好幾百億造福了大概一個縣市的一半左右的旅客可是我們今天看的這個是全國捏全國的公共機車才50億一年啊難道不少嗎"},{"start":445.834,"end":464.591,"text":"是 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委員好今天是我第一次質詢部長剛上任那部長我其實時間沒有很多我直接想跟你詢問我想請問部長部長你知道我們現在搭高鐵它其實這個700T那一列車其實有989個位置你知道有幾個電動輪椅"},{"start":50.835,"end":65.903,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":75.868,"end":102.986,"text":"不曉你知道我們其實現在在臺灣的障礙者目前其實已經超過120萬人那如果以我們現在高齡化的狀況看起來這個數字的比率只會越來越高所以不曉我想跟你分享我們其實現在這個臺灣我們120萬人如果來算的話當然我不是說120萬全部都是需要輪椅可是看起來這個比率是遠遠高過於剛才說0.2%的這個數字"},{"start":106.128,"end":131.884,"text":"我想分享現在其實科技越來越發達那障礙者其實使用的輔具那他們為了要來增加他們這個自立生活或包括自我行動的能力其實很多的障礙者其實他們目前都會選擇電動輪椅那也包括其實很多障礙者他們可能也會有這個團體旅遊的需求包括出差的需求所以你可以想像當今天有一群障礙者的團體他們要團體旅遊的時候"},{"start":134.045,"end":139.91,"text":"好,我們一起做高鐵結果高鐵,對不起只有兩個論議席所以他可能這個團體裡面假如有10個、15個"},{"start":143.097,"end":154.141,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":167.756,"end":173.323,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》"},{"start":187.883,"end":206.094,"text":"這個障礙者他的需求當然當時一直是對這樣回應那我們現在要買新車了嘛是沒錯我們現在要買新車了嘛所以部長你知不知道其實這個我們其實現在高鐵其實也發了新聞稿說我們接下來很可能會跟日本東京簽約這個採購的金額高達1200億日幣那每個編組目前大概是23.4億台幣那這個新車呢會以這個"},{"start":215.279,"end":239.102,"text":"日本的東海道新幹線N700S為參考的系統2026年交車2027年希望可以投入營運所以部長你知不知道N700S日本的N700S裡面有多少個輪椅型這個我不曉得但是應該要比現在要更多才對他們有6個輪椅型有6個輪椅型所以我們辦公室之前其實就一直在跟高鐵討論"},{"start":241.195,"end":268.53,"text":"如果我們既然都要買這個日本的N700S那我們為什麼不能比照N700S目前在日本運行的它有6個輪椅系我們是不是就我也不要求多我們並沒有要求超過這個數字就至少就比照現在日本的這個東海道新幹線的這個同樣的車型就這麼多的就好可是說實話我一直得不到高鐵一個明確的回覆"},{"start":269.731,"end":281.639,"text":"我們辦公室跟高鐵討論好幾次但一直得不到回覆所以今天我也想趁著今天當然是第一次陳部長到委員會應該是因為您的關心現在新的車廂是用6個輪椅系"},{"start":284.295,"end":303.649,"text":"這是新的訊息喔因為之前我們跟高鐵公司詢問的時候一直沒有給我們一直沒有給我們正式的回覆所以我們其實要的很簡單是希望能夠比照這六個輪椅席完全比照因為我們就是要買這個型號嘛所以如果今天部長願意在這邊承諾的話回來不要再改了啦你不改就是六個嘛"},{"start":303.729,"end":327.497,"text":"沒有 這個事情是我們要要求日本的廠商要按照這個要求的標準做六個輪椅席那之前我們希望高鐵這樣做可是我們沒有得到正面的回應因為您的關心所以高鐵現在也對日本的原廠有這樣子的要求那如果今天陳部長在這邊也做了這個承諾我覺得這是最好我覺得這也是對我們很多障礙者來說是一個很大的福因為這是他們從2018到現在的訴求"},{"start":329.798,"end":344.861,"text":"好不容易等到現在要買新車了那當然有機會來實現他們這個願望坦白說六個我自己覺得也沒有到很多啦但至少大家是一個很基本的要求希望能夠順應這個要求所以我自己是希望說如果今天部長跟總經理都在這個地方的話"},{"start":345.402,"end":359.757,"text":"那當然有這個承諾那是不是也可以讓我們有一個接下來我們可能這相關的採購要求日本的廠商相關的規劃的報告可能在一個月內如果現在已經開始規劃了一個月內可以提給我們你們現在高鐵在做這個採購的規劃的報告應該沒有問題吧這個部分"},{"start":363.547,"end":383.081,"text":"因為根本報告現在因為都在這個細部設計的過程之中我們已經把這個要求跟對方要求了但是對於這外面我們現在都還不太方便去announce我們整個規格包括我們的輪椅這邊有多少這個有多少個量這個請這個委員瞭解"},{"start":383.661,"end":402.131,"text":"但是就總經理跟部長都很清楚反正我們現在就一定會有六個這是我們已經明確提出要求了嘛對不對好在這邊先謝謝部長我覺得這是我們今天先聽到一個對於我們交通部對於障礙者朋友一個很大的福音也是讓大家長久以來的願望至少能夠得以實現我們希望這個新車能夠越快上路越好謝謝部長謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:24:11 - 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報告委員當然各部分都在進步當中啦好 但是自駕的部分您上面寫的自駕的部分那個是part 2啦先回答part 1的問題啦IPS計畫投入了72億目前的成效是什麼具體的成效講3點來聽就好了啦講智慧講創新我們大家都同意嘛那72億丟下去具體的成效不用太多"},{"start":121.967,"end":148.273,"text":"隨便講舉相數來聽就好了各位很棒就是針對這個ICS的一個這個計畫的部分的話到目前就所了解的部分第一個部分就是在就是有些特定場域包括這個淡海市政區那個淡海新市政那邊有一些這個交控的這個試驗的一個場域那另外另外一個部分的話就是有關於這個就是自駕這個無人煞車的部分跟這個經營部"},{"start":150.474,"end":175.191,"text":"跟經貨經濟部這個核准的16個一個試驗計畫那交通部這邊也有這個參與這個補助那第三個部分的話大概就是說我先停一下啦齁講到這裡啊我不知道你自己會不會覺得心虛啊丟了72億下去喔我開放式的問題啊讓你可以自己Promote講得這麼虛無你剛剛提到滯降"},{"start":176.624,"end":205.524,"text":"自駕巴士國家隊的口號什麼時候打出來的什麼時候打出來這個口號部長知不知道委員請指教你什麼都要我指教奇怪是你是部長還是我是部長我問你ITS你也要我指教自駕巴士國家隊你也要我指教這個都是民脂民膏欸人民砸下去的錢欸交通部有這麼多的建設不可能每一個時間點我在這邊背給您聽"},{"start":206.857,"end":221.26,"text":"我沒有!要你背給我聽喔!你連資本上面的ITS是什麼都搞不清楚耶!沒有關係啦!我換一個比較簡單的題目啦!自家巴士國家隊目前進度如何?"},{"start":224.733,"end":251.684,"text":"市長可以幫忙回答嗎跟委員報告一下這個自駕巴士的部分的話第一道程序就是要經這個經濟部核准在這個沙盒實驗裡面去做這個實驗那所以現在多少業者走出了沙盒跟這個委員報告據我所了解的一個這個部分總共有16個計畫案那其中有10個是有關於這個大客車的部分那目前只剩下這一個兩岸一個是這一個台積電"},{"start":252.384,"end":263.353,"text":"所以有多少業者走出了沙盒?跟我報告就是說大概剩兩個案子其他的都已經目前都離開這個沙盒是結束還是離開沙盒?是計畫這個就是在沙盒計畫已經這一個結束"},{"start":269.258,"end":296.108,"text":"那結束了以後然後呢那結束了這部分我跟各位報告據我所瞭解因為參與這個就是沙盒計畫裡面有系統業者有車輛業者的部分那這個相關系統業者開發的部分就是包括這些ADAS先進的一個這個部分的話他們也要轉向到這個做單品的一個這個這個產品那另外一個部分就是系統面的這東西他們也在跟車"},{"start":296.828,"end":322.238,"text":"沒關係啊,我再具體的問齁,你們目前估計大概還要多久可以上路?跟我們報告,如果說這個是自駕這個巴士的這個部分的話以目前國際上成熟的商品大概是到這一個,到這個Level 3但是Level 3的部分的話,駕駛員都還要在這個上面所以你們估計大概還要多久?"},{"start":323.339,"end":348.873,"text":"我們這個估計我們在今年年底我們就會有一個自駕巴士的這個操作指引出來那如果說這個所謂的自駕巴士要真正能夠這個商用上路的部分可能比較可行是在早期可能是公車專用到這個線型比較大所以還要多久我個人的看法可能這個3到5年的一個時間3到5年OK好來我們桃機三航廈"},{"start":350.639,"end":370.841,"text":"運輸系統十七億的標案裡面其中一個非常重要的就是T2到T3嘛T2到T3啊 旅客的運輸服務啊我們現在安排的比較特殊啊我們要用自駕車嘛我講的應該沒有錯吧 部長是 沒錯到現在可以follow上齁是 好 可以齁 好"},{"start":372.005,"end":379.804,"text":"那T2到T3要搞自駕巴士的系統那我看了就覺得這個非常的ambitious非常好"},{"start":381.071,"end":402.837,"text":"其他的先進的國家開始大家慢慢上路了台灣搞了八年到現在講原地踏步可能太沉重了但沒有任何一個業者出沙盒真的可以商轉也是事實嘛我看到這個標案我就很好奇當初怎麼評選出來的所以我就仔細的去拜讀這個招標的服務建議書"},{"start":405.558,"end":426.123,"text":"結果裡面看到了負責自駕控制的是一個系統啊叫做李立系統股份有限公司啊這家公司部長有沒有聽過有聽過有聽過嘛委員過去有質詢過是是是我質詢過很多次啦但我覺得非常的奇怪我覺得非常的奇怪這家公司不曉得是有什麼通天的本領啊"},{"start":427.287,"end":448.63,"text":"在台灣的自駕車市場非常的活躍這個標案又給他拿到了那標案給他拿到沒關係嘛我們交通看的是專業看的是能力絕對不是在搞政商關係搞政商背景給能力有能力有專業的人拿到標案天經地義天工地道"},{"start":449.511,"end":472.839,"text":"但問題是是這樣嗎?然後我就看了一下他當初投標愜意服務處的時機啊2018年台中智慧城自駕車試行計畫也是履歷得標啊!市長!不好意思喔!部長!那個時候你應該還是台中市議員嘛!那個時候你應該在台中市議院很認真的監督林佳龍部長在搞這個事嘛!"},{"start":475.558,"end":483.043,"text":"來 我跟你報告一下沒有關係啦 因為到部長的高度我問部長成績的問題不會問市議員議員成績的問題啦禮麗 台中自駕公車系統7000萬打水漂 一事無成台南的 又給他7300萬 還是一事無成我們台鐵 由來的系統不好好用"},{"start":505.125,"end":518.597,"text":"丟了5640萬給他供搞列控4.0結果運安會上個會期跟我說這個系統根本不能用從台中到台南然後到台鐵全部都是被害人結果"},{"start":519.398,"end":535.13,"text":"我們淘機這麼重要T2到T3的標案又給他得標了說明一下現在這個標案又給李立自駕系統得標目前的狀態是什麼報告委員我這邊的訊息不知道對不對目前得標的廠商是晨運汽車是"},{"start":536.371,"end":552.813,"text":"沒有錯我剛架構圖我不是都畫給你看了嗎主承包商是承運嘛去做presentation的時候除了承運以外另外一個重要的人就是履歷的系統嘛因為那自駕車的系統是履歷在搞的嘛對嘛所以我現在問你狀態如何"},{"start":555.596,"end":577.252,"text":"這個標案錢給他了嘛你要推動進度如何大家都很關心嘛目前在細部設計當中啦目前在細部設計當中您對履歷的系統有什麼樣子的疑慮其實您可以提供給我們我現在直接請教啊現在主承包商承運啊是不是有跟淘機申請啊說這個履歷很爛啊根本不能用啊要換有還是沒有"},{"start":580.935,"end":599.163,"text":"我們有得到這樣的訊息不過我們已經有跟主承包商特別交代我們必須要按照合約的規範因為他們是單獨承攬所以他必須要提出包括他的必要性換承包商的那個承包商提的計畫沒有還沒有還沒有正式提嘛還沒有"},{"start":600.063,"end":622.898,"text":"我今天要請教部長的也要拜託部長注意我知道你剛上任所以有一些資訊今天其實是利用質詢的時間提供給部長請部長跟我們淘機的董事長大家好好合作因為我想淘機T3的進度延緩這件事情全國國人都很關心我相信院長也很關心我先預告這是我下一次質詢的主題但就T2到T3的運輸"},{"start":630.403,"end":650.416,"text":"當初做了標案也做了評選結果搞了一個惡名昭彰的履歷讓他拿到標案結果搞了幾年啊說他能力不足啊是在靠政商關係拿標案啊對他的批評啊完全沒錯因為現在連主承包商承運都受不了了"},{"start":651.444,"end":666.321,"text":"爛的不得了啊他們自己都受不了啊要換飆商啊那我的問題就來了當初這個評選到底是怎麼做的部長可以去了解一下嗎好沒有問題委員交代去了解我就去了解需要多教"},{"start":668.48,"end":688.951,"text":"應該一兩個月內就可以了解清楚不用這麼久吧部長一個月好不好好沒問題一個月內我要的是一個清楚的檢討我們當初喔T2到T3這些旅客的運輸何其重要大剌剌的辦了招商還評選結果選到一個能力最差最爛還有詐騙紀錄的廠商"},{"start":692.573,"end":708.84,"text":"這還不是我們嘴巴講他如果後來做得很成功我們大家還是給他鼓鼓掌嘛但現在連跟他一起合作的主承包商都受不了啊要求要換廠商那問題就大了因為我相信陶基的董事長現在也很痛苦啦"},{"start":709.58,"end":738.416,"text":"按照本來超標的規範就已經得標了嘛得標到一半你突然要換廠商你也會擔心說欸那這樣會不會有公平性的問題當初是他來評分嘛啊我給他了現在你又要換那當初其他參與競爭的廠商會不會覺得說啊這個是有案盤還是在怎麼搞還得標了以後評選了以後還可以隨便換廠商所以我相信剛剛董事長楊董事長您在講的在等他的申請主要是這回事嘛"},{"start":739.022,"end":763.8,"text":"但我希望我們處理問題就是面對問題要解決問題就要先面對問題嘛當初到底怎麼評選的怎麼會給時機這麼爛他提給你們淘氣的時機三樣我剛剛全部都列出來因為每一個我都有追蹤全部都失敗全部都失敗給他得標結果現在搞到起虎難下"},{"start":765.134,"end":787.764,"text":"到底要不要准他換啊不准他換繼續爛下去怎麼辦那准他換那當初這個評審是怎麼做的是不是有不可告人的地方是不是靠政商關係在南阿標案的社會都會關心嘛所以我也感謝部長啊勇於認識一個月之內您說的部分我詳細去了解一個月之內好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:55:55 - 13:09:08","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154902","gazette":{"lineno":1095,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時55分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：好，請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。創新、智慧大概是民進黨政府過去幾年來一直強打的招牌，創新跟智慧……"],["陳部長世凱：創新行動。"],["黃委員國昌：對，過去這八年，交通部推展的ITS計畫，八年來投入多少預算？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我現在手上沒有資料可以提供給委員。"],["黃委員國昌：來！那你先說明一下，ITS目前推動的進度如何？"],["陳部長世凱：委員可以跟我指教。"],["黃委員國昌：你知不知道什麼是ITS？"],["陳部長世凱：委員可以跟我指教，是智慧交通的運輸嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：我們發展智慧運輸，目前政府已經投入72億，大家都在問這個到2024年的計畫，第一期四年30億，第二期四年到2024，是42.87億，總共投入72億搞的ITS計畫，目前的成效是什麼？請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，當然各部分都在進步當中，但是自駕的部分，因為您圖片上寫了自駕部分，我覺得到目前為止都還沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：那個是Part 2啦！先回答Part 1的問題啦！ITS計畫投入了72億，目前的成效是什麼？具體的成效，講三點來聽就好了啦！講智慧、講創新，我們大家都同意嘛，72億丟下去，具體的成效不用太多，隨便講幾項出來聽就好了啦！"],["陳部長世凱：委員，請司長說明，好不好？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，針對這個ITS計畫，到目前就我所了解的，第一個部分，有些特定場域，包括淡海新市鎮那邊有一些交控試驗的場域，另外一個部分就是有關於自駕、無人沙盒的部分，經過經濟部核准16個試驗計畫，交通部這邊也有參與這個補助。第三個部分，大概就是說……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下啦！講到這裡，我不知道你自己會不會覺得心虛？丟了72億下去，我提開放式的問題，讓你可以自己promote，卻講得這麼虛無。你剛剛提到自駕，自駕巴士國家隊的口號什麼時候打出來的？什麼時候打出這個口號？部長知不知道？"],["陳部長世凱：委員請指教。"],["黃委員國昌：你什麼都要我指教，奇怪！你是部長，還是我是部長？我問你ITS，你要我指教……"],["陳部長世凱：委員，如果你都要問……"],["黃委員國昌：自駕巴士國家隊，你也要我指教，這個都是民脂民膏耶！人民砸下去的錢耶！"],["陳部長世凱：交通部有這麼多的建設，不可能每一個時間點我在這邊背給您聽。"],["黃委員國昌：我沒有要你背給我聽……"],["陳部長世凱：你剛剛不是問時間點嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：你連基本上的ITS是什麼都搞不清楚！"],["陳部長世凱：是智慧交通運輸，我剛剛沒有答不出來。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係啦！我換一個比較簡單的題目。自駕巴士國家隊目前進度如何？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，自駕巴士的部分，第一道程序就是要經經濟部核准，在這個沙盒實驗裡面去做實驗，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：現在多少業者走出了沙盒？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，據我所了解的，這個部分總共有16個計畫案，其中有10個是關於大客車的部分，目前只剩下兩案，一個是台積電……"],["黃委員國昌：所以有多少業者走出了沙盒？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，大概剩兩個案子，其他的目前已經都離開沙盒了……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個議題您之前關心過……"],["黃委員國昌：是結束，還是離開沙盒？"],["林司長福山：是計畫，就是在沙盒計畫已經結束。"],["黃委員國昌：結束了，然後呢？"],["林司長福山：結束的這部分，我跟委員報告，據我所了解，因為參與這一個沙盒計畫，裡面有系統業者、有車輛業者，相關系統業者開發的部分就是包括這些ADAS先進駕駛輔助系統的這個部分，他們也有轉向到做單品的產品，另外一個部分就是系統面的東西，他們也在跟車子……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我再具體的問，你們目前估計大概還要多久可以上路？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，如果是自駕巴士這個部分，以目前國際上成熟的商品大概是到level 3，但是level 3的話，駕駛員都還要在這上面……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們估計大概還要多久？"],["林司長福山：關於這個估計，在今年年底，我們就會有一個自駕巴士的操作指引出來，如果所謂的自駕巴士要真正能夠商用、上路的部分，可能比較可行的是在早期，可能是是公車專用道這個線型比較單純的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以還要多久？"],["林司長福山：我個人的看法，可能三到五年的時間。"],["黃委員國昌：三到五年？OK。","桃機三航廈運輸系統17億的標案裡面，其中一個非常重要的就是T2到T3，T2到T3旅客的運輸服務，我們現在安排的比較特殊，我們要用自駕車，我講的應該沒有錯吧！部長？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：到現在可以follow上？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：可以吧？好。T2到T3要搞自駕巴士的系統，我看了就覺得這個非常ambitious，非常好！其他先進的國家大家開始慢慢上路了，臺灣搞了8年，到現在，講原地踏步可能太沉重，但沒有任何一個業者出沙盒真的可以商轉也是事實嘛！因此我看到這個標案，我就很好奇當初是怎麼評選出來的，所以我就仔細的去拜讀招標的服務建議書，結果裡面看到了負責自駕控制的是一個系統，叫做理立系統股份有限公司，這家公司部長有沒有聽過？"],["陳部長世凱：有聽過。"],["黃委員國昌：有聽過嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：委員過去有質詢過，我有聽過您質詢過這個議題。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我質詢過很多次了，但我覺得非常的奇怪，這家公司不曉得是有什麼通天的本領，在臺灣的自駕車市場非常的活躍，這個標案又給它拿到了，標案給它拿到沒關係，交通看的是專業、看的是能力，絕對不是在搞政商關係、搞政商背景，給有能力、有專業的人拿到標案，天經地義、天公地道，但問題是，是這樣嗎？然後我就看了一下它當初投標建議服務書的實績，2018年臺中智慧城自駕車試行計畫也是理立得標。部長，那個時候你應該還是臺中市議員嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那個時候你應該在臺中市議會很認真的監督林佳龍部長在搞這個事，對吧？來，我跟你報告一下……"],["陳部長世凱：對這件事有關心，但是它到底哪些是廠商……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，因為你到部長的高度，我問部長層級的問題，不會問市議員、議員層級的問題。","理立，臺中自駕公車系統7,000萬，打水漂，一事無成；臺南的又給它7,300萬，還是一事無成；我們臺鐵原來的系統不好好用，丟了5,640萬給它搞列控4.0，結果運安會上個會期跟我說這個系統根本不能用。從臺中到臺南，然後到臺鐵，全部都是被害人，結果我們桃機這麼重要T2到T3的標案，又給它得標了！說明一下，現在這個標案又給理立自駕系統得標，目前的狀態是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我這邊的訊息不知道對不對，目前得標的廠商是成運汽車公司。"],["黃委員國昌：是，沒有錯。來，剛剛架構圖，我不是都畫給你看了嗎？主承包商是成運嘛！去做presentation的時候，除了成運以外，另外一個重要的人就是理立的系統嘛！因為自駕車的系統是理立在搞的嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是，所以承包商是成運。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我現在問你狀態如何，這個標案錢給它了嘛！你要推動，進度如何？大家都很關心嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：目前在細部設計當中。"],["黃委員國昌：目前在細部設計當中？"],["陳部長世凱：如果委員您對理立的系統有什麼樣子的疑慮，其實您可以提供給我們。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在直接請教，現在主承包商成運是不是有跟桃機申請，說這個理立很爛，根本不能用，要換？有還是沒有？"],["楊董事長偉甫：我們有得到這樣的訊息，不過我們已經有跟主承包商特別交代，我們必須要按照合約的規範，因為他們是單獨承攬……"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！沒錯。"],["楊董事長偉甫：所以它必須要提出包括它的必要性，跟換承包商的那一個……"],["黃委員國昌：提計畫了沒有？"],["楊董事長偉甫：還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：還沒有正式提嘛！"],["楊董事長偉甫：還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：我接著要請教部長，也要拜託部長注意，我知道你剛上任，所以有一些資訊今天其實是利用質詢的時間提供給部長，請部長跟桃機董事長大家好好合作。因為我想桃機T3的進度延緩這件事情，全國國人都很關心，我相信院長也很關心……"],["陳部長世凱：我們全速在加速當中。"],["黃委員國昌：對，我先預告，這是我下一次質詢的主題。但就T2到T3的運輸，當初做了標案，也做了評選，結果搞了一個惡名昭彰的理立，讓它拿到標案，結果搞了幾年，說它能力不足，是在靠政商關係拿標案，對它的批評完全沒錯。"],["陳部長世凱：瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：因為現在連主承包商成運都受不了，爛得不得了！他們自己都受不了，要換標商啊！我的問題就來了，當初這個評選到底是怎麼做的？部長可以去了解一下嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題，委員交代去了解，我就去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["陳部長世凱：應該一、兩個月內就可以了解清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：不用這麼久吧！部長，一個月好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題，一個月內。"],["黃委員國昌：我要的是一個清楚的檢討，我們當初T2到T3，這些旅客的運輸何其重要，大剌剌的辦了招商，還評選，結果選到一個能力最差、最爛，還有詐騙紀錄的廠商，這還不是我們嘴巴講，它如果後來做得很成功，大家還是給它鼓鼓掌，但是現在連跟它一起合作的主承包商都受不了，要求要換廠商，那問題就大了，因為我相信桃機的董事長現在也很痛苦，按照本來招標的規範，都已經得標了嘛！得標到一半，你突然要換廠商，你也會擔心這樣會不會有公平性的問題，當初是它來評分，我給它了，現在你又要換，那麼當初其他參與競爭的廠商會不會覺得這個是有暗盤，還是在怎麼搞？得標了以後、評選了以後，還可以隨便換廠商。","所以我相信剛剛楊董事長講的在等它的申請，主要是這回事嘛！但我希望我們處理問題就是面對問題，要解決問題就要先面對問題，當初到底怎麼評選的、怎麼會給實績這麼爛的？它提給你們桃機的實績三樣，我剛剛全部都列出來，因為每一個我都有追蹤，全部都失敗，給它得標，結果現在搞到騎虎難下，到底要不要准它換？不准它換，繼續爛下去，怎麼辦？那准它換，當初評審是怎麼做的、是不是有不可告人的地方、是不是靠政商關係在拿標案的？社會都會關心嘛！所以我也感謝部長勇於任事，一個月之內。"],["陳部長世凱：您說的部分，我詳細去了解，一個月內……"],["黃委員國昌：一個月之內？好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員。","接下來有請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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12:54:57","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154901","gazette":{"lineno":1033,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時47分）好，謝謝主席，我請我們陳部長。"],["主席：有請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長辛苦了。我想請教一下，按照交通部組織法，在交通部轄下的二級單位有哪些？"],["陳部長世凱：二級單位嗎？"],["王委員鴻薇：對，交通部所屬的二級單位。"],["陳部長世凱：公路局、鐵道局、觀光署、氣象署、高公局……"],["王委員鴻薇：還有嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：港務以及民航。"],["王委員鴻薇：航港局、民航局，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：我這是放水題，因為他們都坐在下面。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，再來。請問一下交通部所屬的公司組織有哪些？"],["陳部長世凱：其實非常多耶！"],["王委員鴻薇：講啊！"],["陳部長世凱：好，臺鐵、中華郵政也都是屬於我們這邊的，然後……"],["王委員鴻薇：不要緊張。"],["陳部長世凱：然後，港務公司、桃機公司也都是我們這邊的。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，很多。還有嗎？有沒有漏掉？"],["陳部長世凱：下面還有很多的子公司，然後港務下面我們還有一些分公司。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，他們還有轉投資公司。"],["陳部長世凱：對，非常多。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，不要緊張，慢慢想一想。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：交通部除了自己所屬的、直接百分之百持股的公司，還有很多轉投資公司，這也都是交通部的公司，有哪些？"],["陳部長世凱：中華電信是我們的所屬、轉投資啦，高鐵公司也應該屬於我們轉投資的部分。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：世曦工程嗎？世曦應該也是我們轉投資的。"],["王委員鴻薇：還在打pass啊？還有嗎？因為這些單位他們比較沒有來。"],["陳部長世凱：其實我們非常、非常多。"],["王委員鴻薇：非常、非常多。"],["陳部長世凱：法人也非常多。"],["王委員鴻薇：我就說公司啊，公司組織。"],["陳部長世凱：公司也非常多，法人也非常多。"],["王委員鴻薇：非常多！你回答得「非常多」！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：來，告訴你一下……"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個過去都有報告啦！陽明海運、台灣航業、桃勤，包含臺北捷運公司、中華電信、臺灣高鐵，剛才6個裡面答對2題。所以其實交通部所屬的單位非常、非常多，我剛開始前面根本是放水題，因為他們都坐在下面，大家一直在微笑，你們也在幫部長緊張，對不對？","我為什麼要提這個事情？就是交通部的所屬業務非常重要，而且是民生，今天很多人關心有關行人交通安全的部分，我更關心交通部不管是所屬、自己經營或者是轉投資的公司，其實交通部都要負責。","好，我特別關心臺鐵，因為臺鐵從今年1月1號才開始轉型為公司組織，在這個過程裡面，臺鐵要怎麼樣轉虧為盈？這是交通部和臺鐵一個非常重大的課題，可是在這個過程裡面，工會質疑臺鐵董座自肥，因為他除了加薪，還幫自己記大功，請問部長上任之後有沒有瞭解這件事情到底怎麼回事？"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，加薪的部分是這個樣子，因為它113年1月1號公司化了，公司化之後，它的給薪方式跟過去的臺鐵局當然是不一樣的，它那個水準……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以它要比照國營事業嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對、對、對，就是比照國營事業主持人的薪給。"],["王委員鴻薇：喔！對！這就是董事長說：我不是啊！我是因為要比照國營事業……"],["陳部長世凱：它現在真的是公司化了，所以……"],["王委員鴻薇：那我現在就必須幫臺鐵的員工講話，如果臺鐵公司的董事長應該比照國營事業，但是部長你知道嗎？臺鐵轉換為國營事業之後，它的員工薪資是所有國營事業最低的！所以董事長要比照，部長，請問一下，那麼臺鐵的基層員工該不該比照？"],["陳部長世凱：我認為應該要比照，應該要比照。"],["王委員鴻薇：太好了！太好了！"],["陳部長世凱：也要往上拉，這是必然要做的事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有錯，我們之前幾位委員都有談到現在臺鐵缺工的問題，事實上，在之前傳出缺兩千人，剛剛講說沒有缺那麼多人，缺一百人，因為你們有招考。但是你知道臺鐵的問題是招考了之後，很多人不來報到，因為他可能有更好的工作，或者他報到之後，當他又報考到其他一些國營事業時，他第一個選擇誰？他立刻跑掉，所以臺鐵才一直處於缺工狀態。部長可以在這邊承諾，臺鐵的基層員工可以比照董事長，一樣的，要比照其他國營事業，至少比照你們交通部其他國營事業，要全體一致加薪，可不可以？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我認為臺鐵員工的薪資確實要加高一些，包含從業人員，這個是首先要處理的，因為目前為止，看起來從業人員的薪資是相對低一些的……"],["王委員鴻薇：偏低。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們正在努力當中，目前整個計畫跟規劃都有了，我們會再針對細節溝通，希望能夠快速往上拉。"],["王委員鴻薇：我希望你能夠承諾幫基層從業人員也一樣加薪，而不是只有董事長加薪。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分沒有問題，我們來努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我只有一點點時間，我不占用別人的時間。剛才我為什麼特別重視那些你們有轉投資的事業？除了臺鐵之外，事實上，最近有關交通部部分，不管是所屬事業或者轉投資事業，都出現了董事長自肥的爭議，這裡面包含臺灣高鐵，還包括陽明海運，而且都出現臨去秋波，陽明海運董事長已經離開了，但他在離開之前為自己加薪；臺灣高鐵董事長現在還坐在位子上，但他任職時間很久了，現在國營事業慢慢在換人，外界推測，不曉得什麼時間，搞不好就會換到臺灣高鐵，所以在臨去秋波可能換人的狀況下，這個時候為董事長加薪是不適當的。當然，這些都發生在你來交通部之前，所以我也請部長能夠針對你們的轉投資事業也好，所屬事業也好，當董事長加薪的時候，部長不能說這是公司治理，如果引起員工這麼大的反彈，部長應該審視他的加薪到底合不合理，還有真的不要變成好像是他的一個畢業禮物，我覺得這對員工來講都是很難接受的，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分交通部一定會嚴審，我的原則是基層優先加薪。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，臺鐵的部分我就拜託你，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席（魯委員明哲）：謝謝王委員。因為現在時間快接近1點，我先請教一下陳部長、內政部次長，還有各位董事長，你們要先休息吃便當嗎？大概還有11位委員要質詢，如果都來的話，大概需要1個小時左右，這樣好不好？如果真的有要方便的，請自行過去；如果肚子很餓，低血糖的，待會去找醫務室，好不好？然後再回來。真的可以嗎？就直接開完再吃便當？好的。","接下來有請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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到目前為止心情怎麼樣"},{"start":24.474,"end":43.713,"text":"雖然今天是委員給我的開學日但其實我來內閣已經從520到現在已經一百多天了所以閒情都一樣就積極努力交通委員會第一次來到這裡被選來是非常正式的那因為我特別看到雖然你過去沒有在交通方面的一個專業"},{"start":45.034,"end":60.769,"text":"但你也許了三個月嘛其中一個是用心學習啦我想一個用心的學習的學生每一天做夢都在想可不可以明天就開學所以我完成你這個夢立法院趕快開學可是為什麼"},{"start":61.85,"end":90.467,"text":"為什麼到底發生什麼事啊是你交代了嗎昨天我們行程出來之後我接到市主人嘛要求學校不准今天開學是你有交代公關說一定要把今天的開學日把它滅掉嗎還是我有接到委員的電話說建議今天不適合開學因為黃道吉日不太對最後可怕是外面的專家學的教授也"},{"start":91.786,"end":99.577,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":107.386,"end":126.763,"text":"我有跟委員報告過說如果可以的話跟其他的委員會大概同樣時間會比較好因為昨天發開會通知對我們來講確實不到24個小時決定要開會我相信也很多委員的助理們要準備質詢的內容有點辛苦是委員叫你們的公關來講的"},{"start":128.357,"end":155.653,"text":"我懂我懂沒有沒有沒有不是我不是這個意思好啦我只是真的說一說啦其實講真的今天溝通一個議程啊都是交通很多領域在休會期間很多民眾關心的議題啦然後第二個呢因為剛剛我也說了那在整個休會的過程中新部長上任只有您一位嘛我們趕快一定要比其他的委員會早點開學了齁沒有問題我昨天也有講說要得勤學獎我們一起得勤學獎對好"},{"start":157.775,"end":178.035,"text":"我們這一堆人要變你的學伴你要快點學習事實上剛剛第一位發言的也是過去你的這個算是老師我們蔡局長副院長那事實上我感覺你是抱著一個我們要好好用心學習然後我對於已經專業我要尊重專業"},{"start":179.574,"end":202.714,"text":"我們會認真做你的一個管理可是我們發覺在很多上面你過去真的沒有經驗那在交通部長其實很多民眾的一個期待是希望能夠有一些遠見因為在交通的領域不管從政策、工具很多面向發展太快了太快了那我們覺得要有遠見就是說你已經具備了一些交通領域的一個專業比較"},{"start":204.776,"end":226.003,"text":"有機會去推演他一些發展這是很多人一個期待當然我們希望你能夠學習快一點在我過去早期就業的時候其實我跟你的心理某個部分也一樣所以每次看到那個要就業的時候都一定講說我要應徵一個新的職務我大學畢業"},{"start":227.284,"end":252.339,"text":"那你是告訴我你要有三年經驗我就沒有三年經驗你不給我機會我怎麼會有這個經驗可是這僅止於應徵在基層的員工跟基層的幹部像你現在直接應徵進來的是一個部長加大越大所以我真的是希望說你在學習的過程你能夠速度要快一點"},{"start":253.32,"end":276.242,"text":"你知道台積電是台灣的護國神山嘛對不對事實上也很我是覺得台積電已經不可否認變成我們國力的一部分喔在很多地方都展現了甚至先進的國家大家搶著要台積電我相信啊不光是張忠謀董事長一個人的一個能量他一定要有這樣的一個遠見"},{"start":277.765,"end":305.064,"text":"你知道嗎我覺得他帶了一些人人對了這個企業的方向大概就成功了八成你覺得對不對我認為是對的對那你知道嗎張忠謀董事長啊他在應徵人他有一個死穴他的死穴是說如果有人跟我說一句話面試直接淘汰啊就是說在這間公司有很多學習的機會"},{"start":306.425,"end":326.74,"text":"所以這就直接淘汰他邏輯很簡單啦因為現在科技也在打仗嘛大家都需要集戰力我願意把這句話真的送給你啦事實上在交通部他是一個非常明顯有太多重大建設這個的部分在推動的這個部分你大概需要多少的學習時間呢請說"},{"start":329.82,"end":355.728,"text":"您在交通委員會也相當久的時間您應該也很清楚整個交通部的業務跨得非常的廣光是鐵路有鐵路一般的鐵路高鐵跟捷運光是公路有一般的公路還有道路安全的問題還有高速公路然後我們還有跨到了氣象還有跨到了觀光還有跨到了航空還有跨到了航港就是港那港的部分有硬體建設也有船舶的管理"},{"start":356.528,"end":384.099,"text":"其實跨的面向相當的大我相信過去到現在為止雖然說我之前有提過一個數據有差不多15位部長不是本科系畢業的那另外一件事是我剛才說過他跨的領域這麼大的狀況底下有任何一個部長不需要學習嗎我相信每一位部長都很努力在學習其實我拜訪過好幾位前部長他們都跟我說他們剛來的時候前三個月每個晚上在上課每個晚上在看資料"},{"start":384.699,"end":413.516,"text":"每一個部長都要積極努力的學習那這個部分我也會努力但我要跟委員報告您剛剛所說的那三點是我被公布說發布說要來接這個單位的時候我所說的但是我很清楚委員您的交代也很清楚我也知道一上任就要是集戰力所以到現在為止今天的質詢到目前大家委員給我的指教我都吸收以外就是我們能夠做處置的部分如果有哪裡做得不好我也好希望委員給我指教跟指導好"},{"start":414.657,"end":436.597,"text":"這個部長其實對我們來講這是你剛剛講說你的一個想法那其實對我們的想法我們覺得說真的有幾分無奈了因為新的政府這個上任之後我們一個半月的時間好不容易跟前任部長磨合了把地方要做的事情好不容易講清楚了花了很多的精神我們要重新開始所以我們也要"},{"start":437.378,"end":463.076,"text":"沒什麼耐心啊所以你要學快一點那很多委員都提到了這個行人死傷也是很多的一個團體在關心的我們法規上路了大家覺得按照道理很多的一個相對的法規上路了而且包括了從總統到行政院到交通部甚至相關的一個單位都在做軟硬挺的一個努力過程中但在112年年底看這個數字還是增加"},{"start":463.877,"end":491.438,"text":"那最近在東海大學發生這個憾事我想就請教一下我看到部長你有發言我請教一下你對這個案子這個我只想問兩件事這一台公車到底有沒有裝這個ADAS就是先進的駕駛輔助系統他到底這台車有沒有裝其中六個面向盲點偵測他到底有沒有"},{"start":492.586,"end":517.628,"text":"還是第二個是他有裝再來是正常的嗎還是壞掉了因為駕駛最後的說法是說我不知道是真的還假的天氣太暗當然因為有時候駕駛的路況真的是不一定那我在想這件事情部長有沒有去了解這台車到底有沒有盲點監測系統裝在車上是可用的嗎"},{"start":518.369,"end":523.688,"text":"報告委員您剛剛所說的這個ADAS的部分我們得到的訊息是有裝的是有裝的"},{"start":524.718,"end":528.941,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》"},{"start":554.918,"end":583.45,"text":"麻煩去了解一下我目前強制的是盲點的這個影像的部分這個確定是有的這個沒有問題確定是有的那當下其實主要是司機他可能沒有去理會或者是沒有去看那個東西那第二他其實該停等的這個動作這是強制的有罰則的停等的這個動作他沒有做不是你那個盲點偵測系統將一般的轎車事實上都會叫的我不知道那是什麼狀況我建議你們要去了解好不好"},{"start":584.756,"end":585.959,"text":"以死亡人數來做一個分析"},{"start":593.749,"end":616.763,"text":"那這個部分就像剛剛部長你也有看過這相關的一些資料在警政署各個分局統計啊他到底發生這樣的一個死亡他想辦法去歸類在歸因在駕駛端有29類的原因在行人端有分成7類的原因然後呢在112年8月到113年6月因為我們要資料的時候只有統計11個月"},{"start":618.944,"end":634.132,"text":"總共343人行人因為交通事故死亡我們看了一下駕駛端242大概佔7成主要是因為駕駛因素第二個行人端30%那我們來看"},{"start":636.993,"end":661.146,"text":"趙英的排名呢就像你剛剛有說的有說的第一個是主要駕駛端沒有在斑馬線先暫停讓路人先行那第二名呢是行人行人部分他可能不看號誌或者沒有走標線穿越馬路第三個也是駕駛端不管是分心恍神等等的因為我們的交通部"},{"start":662.667,"end":685.868,"text":"從交通的政策、相關的一些規劃、教育甚至對於駕駛人車輛的一個監管都是你們那在教育的部分你們有沒有嘗試的針對於駕駛端、行人端分別要在哪個地方投入這個教育比較有效麻煩你說一下有這個部分其實我們投入相當多的努力"},{"start":686.408,"end":687.088,"text":"最後我特別看到你今年2月7號"},{"start":714.124,"end":738.965,"text":"很疲憊地回到了台中什麼叫腰痠背痛就是說準備回家過年回家過年從台北出發到台中開了整整四個小時因為那時候還不是交通部長然後疲勞之外加上許多的腰痠背痛返鄉過年塞車的洗禮回家真有一種儀式感這個部長這個"},{"start":743.493,"end":758.99,"text":"因為我們這次有談到其實過年我們的連假可能是這個車潮最多的那我們發覺上次中秋假期台鐵也好他發覺奇怪比去年三天的連假完全連在一起的"},{"start":759.844,"end":785.205,"text":"跟今年度有分開一天他的乘坐他們的人潮大概不管是返鄉來來去人潮多了9%所以我今天提出這個題目是說現在因為有些不連了嘛大家不要補休那有一些這個假期是在五六之前像中秋節是在禮拜二那這種這個部分我覺得真的有點不同形態他是兩波回家"},{"start":785.985,"end":804.882,"text":"或者短假期他在區域中間跑你們有沒有做一個分析啊?跟委員報告齁因為前一陣子才有一次的經驗也就是中秋節他中間也是隔一天所以我當時也有交代我們的所屬單位我當時在討論疏運的時候我跟他們說這是一個變形的假期第一我們先把它做成四天連假的規劃"},{"start":805.823,"end":827.614,"text":"那鐵路的部分更特殊他們可能要前面再加一天後面再加一天因為他們速度相對快一點所以可能要延伸到六天那這是第一點第二點是說更重要的是應變因為我們對於民眾到底他有沒有請假這個比例其實不一定抓得準那我們目前有幾個數據我有拜託我們同仁一定要做就是第一我們先看這個訂房率"},{"start":828.234,"end":832.296,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":853.604,"end":857.912,"text":"那因為時間的關係今天我們的詢答就到這裡謝謝謝謝委員指教"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:32:42 - 12:47:02","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154900","gazette":{"lineno":991,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（12時32分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["魯委員明哲：部長，開學了喔！開學第一天，到目前為止心情怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：雖然今天是委員給我的開學日，但其實我來內閣從520到現在已經一百多天了，所以心情都一樣，就積極努力。"],["魯委員明哲：是啊！今天跟我們交通委員會，第一次來到這裡備詢，是非常正式的。"],["陳部長世凱：是，感謝委員給我的一個……"],["魯委員明哲：因為我特別看到，雖然你過去沒有在交通方面的專業，但你也許了三個願，其中一個是用心學習。我想一個用心學習的學生，每一天作夢都在想可不可以明天就開學，所以我完成你這個夢，立法院趕快開學。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["魯委員明哲：可是為什麼，到底發生什麼事啊？是你交代的嗎？昨天我們行程出來之後，我接到四組人馬要求學校不准今天開學，是你有交代公關說一定要把今天的開學日滅掉嗎？我也有接到委員的電話說建議今天不適合開學，因為黃道吉日不太對。最後，可怕的是外面的專家學者、教授也LINE過來說可不可以今天不要開學。我想請問一下，今天到目前為止，好像也沒少一塊肉吧！"],["陳部長世凱：不會，我覺得今天是非常好的開學日，所以我並沒有這樣子交代。"],["魯委員明哲：真的嗎？公關在現場嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我有跟委員報告過如果可以的話，跟其他委員會大概同樣的時間會比較好，因為昨天發開會通知，對我們來講，確實不到24個小時決定要開會，我相信也有很多委員助理們要準備質詢的內容，有點辛苦。"],["魯委員明哲：喔！是委員叫你們的公關來講的，喔！我懂、我懂。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有、沒有，不是，我不是這個意思。"],["魯委員明哲：好啦！我只是真的，說一說啦！其實講真的，今天溝通一個議程啦！很多都是交通的領域，是休會期間很多民眾關心的議題。第二個，剛剛我也說了，在整個休會過程中，新部長上任只有您一位，我們趕快，一定要比其他的委員會早點開學。"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題，委員昨天也有講要得勤學獎，我們一起得勤學獎。"],["魯委員明哲：對。我們這一堆人要變你的學伴，你要快點學習。事實上剛剛第一位發言的，過去也算是你的老師嘛！就是蔡其昌副院長。事實上我感覺，你是抱著我們要好好用心學習，然後我對於專業，我要尊重專業，我們會認真管理。可是我們發覺在很多方面，你過去真的沒有經驗，而交通部長其實是很多民眾的期待，希望能夠有一些遠見，因為在交通的領域，不管是政策、工具，很多面向發展得太快了。我們都覺得要有遠見，就是你已經具備了一些交通領域的專業，比較有機會去推衍這一些發展，這是很多人的期待。當然我們也希望你能夠學習快一點，在過去，早期我就業的時候，其實我跟你的心理某個部分也一樣，所以我們每次看到，要就業的時候都一定講，我要應徵一個新的職務，我大學畢業，那您是告訴我要有3年經驗，我就沒有3年經驗，你不給我機會，我怎麼會有這個經驗？可是這僅止於應徵基層的員工和基層幹部，像你現在直接應徵進來的是一個部長，家大業大，所以我真的是希望你在學習的過程能夠速度快一點。你知道台積電是臺灣的護國神山，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：事實上，我是覺得台積電已經不可否認變成我們國力的一部分。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["魯委員明哲：在很多地方都展現了，甚至先進的國家大家搶著要台積電。我相信不光是張忠謀董事長一個人的能量，他一定要有這樣的遠見，你知道嗎？我覺得他帶了一些人，人對了，這個企業的方向大概就成功了八成，你覺得對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：我認為是對的。"],["魯委員明哲：對。那你知道嗎？張忠謀董事長在應徵人他有一個死穴，他的死穴是，如果有人跟我說一句話，面試直接淘汰，就是在這間公司有很多學習的機會，所以這就直接淘汰。他的邏輯很簡單，因為現在科技業在打仗，大家都需要即戰力。我願意把這句話，真的，送給你啦！事實上在交通部，它非常明顯有太多重大建設在推動，你大概需要多少的學習時間呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，可以讓我說明一下嗎？"],["魯委員明哲：請說。"],["陳部長世凱：您在交通委員會也相當久的時間，你應該也很清楚，整個交通部的業務跨得非常廣，光是鐵路，有一般鐵路、高鐵和捷運；光是公路，有一般公路、道路安全的問題，還有高速公路；然後我們還跨到氣象、跨到觀光、跨到航空，還有跨到航港，而港的部分有硬體建設，也有船舶管理，其實跨的面向相當大。我相信過去到現在為止，雖然我之前提過一個數據，有差不多15位部長不是本科系畢業的。","另外一件事，我剛才說過，它跨的領域這麼大的狀況底下，有任何一個部長不需要學習嗎？我相信每一位部長都很努力在學習。其實我拜訪過好幾位前部長，他們都跟我說他們剛來的時候，前3個月每個晚上在上課，每個晚上在看資料，每個部長都要積極努力學習。這個部分我有努力，但我要跟委員報告，您剛剛所說的那三點，是我被發布要來接這個單位的時候我所說的，但是我很清楚，委員您的交代也很清楚，我也知道，一上任就要是即戰力，所以到現在為止，今天的質詢到目前大家給我的指教我都吸收以外，我們能夠處置的部分，如果有哪裡做得不好，我也很希望委員給我指教和指導。"],["魯委員明哲：其實對我們來講，就是你剛剛講你的想法，其實我們的想法，我們覺得真的有幾分無奈，因為新政府上任之後，我們在一個半月的時間好不容易跟前任部長磨合了，把地方要做的事情好不容易講清楚了，花了很多精神，我們要重新開始啊！所以我們也沒什麼耐心，因此你要學快一點。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["魯委員明哲：很多委員都提到，行人死傷也是很多團體關心的，我們法規上路了，大家覺得按照道理，很多相對的法規上路了，而且包括從總統到行政院到交通部，甚至相關的單位都在做軟硬體的努力過程中，但在112年年底，看那個數字還是增加。最近在東海大學發生這個憾事，我想請教一下，我看到部長有發言，我請教你對這個案子的理解，我只想問兩件事，這一台公車到底有沒有裝ADAS，就是先進駕駛輔助系統，到底這台車有沒有裝？其中六個面向，盲點偵測它到底有沒有？第二個是它有裝，再來，是正常的嗎？還是壞掉了？我不知道是真的還是假的，駕駛最後的說法是天氣太暗，當然有時候駕駛的路況真的是不一定。我在想這件事情，部長有沒有去瞭解這一台車到底有沒有把盲點監測系統裝在車上，是可用的嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您剛剛所說的這個ADAS部分，我們得到的訊息是有裝的。"],["魯委員明哲：因為ADAS有六個面向，有一些什麼自動導航，那個不重要，其中一項，大車的……我們過去3、4年講太多了，你知道嗎？包括那時候交通部對於一些車有補助，到底盲點偵測系統是不是正常的？如果是正常的反應，叫聲一直出來，我是坦白講，現在已經變成小車的標配了，所以我要拜託，在這個事情之後，麻煩去瞭解一下好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前強制的是盲點影像的部分，這個確定是有的，這個沒有問題，確定是有的！當下其實主要是司機可能沒有去理會或者是沒有去看那個東西；第二，他其實該停等的這個動作──這是強制的，有罰則的喔，可是停等的這個動作他沒有做。"],["魯委員明哲：不是，盲點偵測系統現在一般轎車事實上都是會叫的，我不知道那是什麼狀況，我建議你們要去瞭解，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們知道他們應該是有裝的。"],["魯委員明哲：接下來，行人以死亡人數來做一個分析，這個部分就像剛剛部長也有看過相關的一些資料，警政署各個分局對於發生這樣的死亡，想辦法去分類、歸因，分析出駕駛端有29類的原因，行人端則分成7類的原因，從112年8月到113年6月，我們去要資料的時候只有統計11個月，總共343個行人因為交通事故而死亡，我們看了一下，駕駛端242人，大概占7成，主要是因為駕駛因素，第二是行人端占30%。而肇因的排名就像你剛剛有提到的，第一個主要是駕駛端沒有在斑馬線先暫停，讓路人先行；第二名是行人的部分，他可能不看號誌或是沒有走標線穿越馬路；第三個也是駕駛端，不管是分心或恍神等等。因為從交通政策的相關規劃、教育，甚至對於駕駛人、車輛的監管都是交通部負責，在教育的部分，你們有沒有嘗試要針對駕駛端、行人端分別在哪個地方投入相關的教育會比較有效？麻煩說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：有，這個部分其實我們投入相當多的努力，不過這個部分不是只有交通部要做，我們也跟地方政府一起合作，包含一些經費的補助上面。我們在做行人交通安全宣導，尤其委員關心的駕駛端部分，我們該做的網路宣傳也都有做。不過我覺得大家希望再做得更好，所以這個部分的力道我們在明年度會更加強。"],["魯委員明哲：好。最後，我特別看到你在今年2月7日很疲憊地回到臺中，什麼叫做腰酸背痛？就是你回家過年，從臺北出發到臺中，開了整整4個小時的車，因為你那時候還不是交通部長，說自己疲勞之外，加上許多的腰酸背痛，返鄉過年塞車的洗禮，回家真有一種儀式感。部長，我們這次有談到過年的連假可能是車潮最多的，而這次中秋節假期今年度分開一天，我們發覺乘坐臺鐵的人潮，不管是返鄉或其他來來去去的，比去年三天連假、假期完全連在一起的還多了9%。所以我今天提出這個題目是說，現在因為有些假期不連了嘛，大家不要補休，有些假期是在禮拜五、六之前，像這次中秋節是在禮拜二，這個部分我覺得真的有點不同形態，他是兩波回家，或者是短假期他在區域中間跑，你們有沒有做一個分析啊？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，因為前一陣子才有一次經驗，也就是中秋節，它中間也是隔一天，所以我當時也有交代我們的所屬單位，當時在討論疏運的時候，我跟他們說這是一個變形的假期，第一，我們先把它做成四天連假的規劃，鐵路的部分更特殊，他們可能要前面再加一天，後面再加一天，因為他們速度相對快一點，所以可能要延伸到六天，這是第一點。第二點是說，更重要的是應變，因為我們對於民眾到底有沒有請假，這個比例其實不一定抓得準，我們目前有幾個數據，我有拜託我們同仁一定要做，就是第一，我們先看訂房率，飯店的訂房率如果很高的話，表示很多人是會請假的，這樣我們的疏運可能就要加強；第二個是我也希望國外航空的部分，我們看那個訂票的狀況，大概就知道大家想要連假的狀況多不多、踴不踴躍；第三就是針對高鐵跟臺鐵目前的訂票系統，我們在接近假期的時候，如果看到訂票系統已經很滿了，就必然要增加更多的車次。"],["魯委員明哲：好，因為時間的關係，今天我們的詢答就到這裡，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員。接著請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","黃國昌","盧縣一","林月琴","洪申翰","牛煦庭","黃健豪","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","徐欣瑩","林國成","劉建國","傅崐萁"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-26"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善\n成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通\n部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情\n況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137601_00018"}}},{"date":"2024-09-26","影片長度":"00:08:29","end_time":"2024-09-26T12:32:18+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154899","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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沒有一個方向?蘇花安的部分我們現在都積極在規劃這個部分本來就是既定的政策也正在進行當中這個部分會更加快的來進行"},{"start":242.907,"end":269.275,"text":"那針對鐵路的部分委員您剛剛上一張照片有嗅到其實它那個隧石是從上面差不多一千多公尺下來那這個部分在下面做防置我們只能積極地用人工的方式或者是說用工程的方式讓那些土石下來可以趕快流出去這個部分我們積極在做那另外就是說比較中期來看的話鐵路方面做明隧道大概是中期的規劃不過要坦白跟委員報告因為人定不一定能夠勝天"},{"start":271.255,"end":291.964,"text":"大自然的力量實在是太大了所以讓我們不得不考慮就是說從德道河仁的這一段這一段的鐵道我們也有可能長期要規劃一個改道的可能性那我們目前正在做討論當中因為對花蓮人來講也好或者對東部人來講也好這個北回的鐵路回家的安全的道路實在是太重要了"},{"start":292.364,"end":311.751,"text":"所以這個部分我們也會做短期目前的安全很重要要先處理那中期民隧道的部分也是要處理他的安全問題那長期來看做改道或許是一個會更安全的方式那短中長期我們都來努力好部長齁這個我剛才為什麼要先從北回鐵路開始講是"},{"start":313.174,"end":314.494,"text":"現在以現在的工程技術、科技的發達"},{"start":338.854,"end":366.808,"text":"絕對可以解決這些問題所以這個部分要去加油報告這段我相當理解因為我已經去三次那個地方我去看三次你也去了很多次蘇阿安剛提到的蘇阿安我們先看這個蘇阿安這個整個環評還有部落的諮商同意都OK了但是現在說要121年才會完工通車我來做比較"},{"start":368.501,"end":394.849,"text":"蘇發安就是針對蘇發改還沒有做的部分東澳到南澳、和平到和中、和人到崇德我們來做比較蘇發改民國97年11月10號行政院核定可行性研究之後100年1月29號就動工了只有這麼短的時間兩年兩個月就動工了"},{"start":396.233,"end":423.802,"text":"一零九一二六號前線通車你看我們看蘇阿安一百零八年十二月二十號行政院核定可行性研究到現在已經四年十個月了還沒有動工而且一季完工的期程從一一九延到一二零現在又延到一二一而且都還沒有動工所以這個部分"},{"start":425.002,"end":444.969,"text":"請問一下什麼時候可以動工?報告委員我們目前正在做細部設計也準備要跟行政院來爭取預算因為綜合規劃已經都結束了所以我們現在等環評通過之後環評也已經過了那現在正在爭取預算的過程當中那只要爭取到預算我們就馬上會來做動工"},{"start":446.572,"end":472.015,"text":"所以預算是非常重要所以拜託委員支持要加油不是不是我們絕對是全力支持我翻了整個預算書沒有啊然後前三正設裡面也沒有啊所以這個部分所以部長你真的要去加油這個這樣的一個期程這個都會涉及到你要做就先做"},{"start":473.322,"end":483.365,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":491.107,"end":493.37,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫．"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:23:49 - 12:32:18","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154899","gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時24分）主席、各位委員，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：恭喜部長！我先從臺灣十大建設來講，那是在1974年，那時候你還沒出生。"],["陳部長世凱：還沒有，我是1977年出生。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：臺灣十大建設其中一個就是北迴鐵路，那時候的經濟不是那麼好，但是當時的政府、蔣經國總統沒有忘記花東的重大建設──北迴鐵路。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：北迴鐵路是在1979年完工，那時候你已經出生了。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我那時候是兩歲。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：在1979年完工，在1980年全線通車，到現在總共已經四十多年了，興建的期程是五年多完工，到現在已經四十多年。北迴鐵路完工那時候我正好大學畢業，因為我是花蓮人，所以我會很期待，常常坐這個路線。無論再怎麼大的地震、再怎麼樣大的颱風、豪雨，這四十多年來都沒有怎麼樣。這一次發生0403地震，而且有餘震，在0403大地震當天，北迴鐵路也都沒有怎麼樣，非常好，但是這一次的餘震特別的多。"],["陳部長世凱：到現在都還在震。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，到5月10號的時候餘震是1,396次，到8月16號餘震是1,653次，也就是因為餘震特別多，所以整個山的土石鬆動。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以一下大雨就造成土石流，蘇花公路、北迴鐵路在崇德到和仁之間就是這樣發生的。在這段時間非常謝謝交通部，也謝謝公路總局還有鐵路局，應該是臺鐵公司，現在已經不叫鐵路局了。"],["陳部長世凱：對，是臺鐵公司，已經公司化了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：臺鐵公司的同仁非常的辛苦，來做相關的這些工作。這個就是現在崇德到和仁之間的現況，我們必須要去解決這個部分，對於這個部分蘇花安還有臺鐵相關的這些改善，你們有沒有一個方向？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，對蘇花安的部分我們現在都積極在規劃，這個部分本來就是既定的政策，也正在進行當中，這個部分會更加快的來進行。那針對鐵路的部分，委員剛剛上一張照片有show到，其實那個碎石是從上面差不多一千多公尺下來，這個部分在下面防治，我們只能積極的用人工的方式或者是用工程的方式，讓那些土石下來之後可以趕快流出去，這個部分我們積極在做。另外就是比較中期來看的話，鐵路方面做明隧道大概是中期的規劃，不過要坦白跟委員報告，因為人不一定能夠勝天，大自然的力量實在是太大了，所以讓我們不得不考慮，就是對崇德到和仁的這一段鐵道，我們也有可能長期規劃改道的可能性，我們目前正在討論當中，因為對花蓮人來講也好，或者對東部人來講也好，這個北迴鐵路、回家的安全道路實在是太重要了，所以這個部分我們也會做。在短期方面，目前的安全很重要，要先處理；在中期方面，對明隧道的部分也是要處理它的安全問題；長期來看，改道或許是一個會更安全的方式，短中長期我們都來努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，我剛才為什麼先從北迴鐵路開始講？因為部長很重要，總統不會很清楚，當時蔣經國總統也不是有這個專業，但是交通部提出來，行政院支持，總統支持。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以交通部要提出一個非常好的規劃，以現在的工程技術、科技的發達，絕對可以解決這些問題，所以這個部分要去加油。"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，這個部分我相當理解，因為我已經去3次了，這個地方我去看了3次。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，我知道，非常謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：你也去了很多次。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我剛剛提到蘇花安，我們先看這個，蘇花安的環評還有部落的諮商同意都OK了，但是現在說要到121年才會完工通車。蘇花安是針對蘇花改還沒做的部分，就是東澳到南澳、和平到和中、和仁到崇德，我們來做比較，蘇花改在民國97年11月10號行政院核定可行性研究，之後在100年1月29號就動工了，只有這麼短的時間，2年2個月就動工了，然後在109年1月6號全線通車。你看我們蘇花安，在108年12月20號行政院核定可行性研究，到現在已經4年10個月了，還沒有動工，而且預計完工的期程從119年延到120年，現在又延到121年，而且都還沒有動工，關於這個部分，請問一下什麼時候可以動工？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們目前正在做細部設計，也準備要跟行政院來爭取預算，因為綜合規劃都已經結束了，所以我們就等環評通過，環評也已經過了，現在正在爭取預算的過程當中，只要爭取到預算，我們馬上會來動工。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，預算是非常重要的，所以部長要加油。"],["陳部長世凱：拜託委員支持。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們絕對是全力支持，可是我翻了整個預算書都沒有，前瞻建設裡面也沒有啊！"],["陳部長世凱：還在跟行政院爭取。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以對這個部分部長真的要去加油，像這樣的一個期程，這個都會涉及到，你要做就先做和仁到崇德，一併解決啊！對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：一併解決，也就是蘇花安嘛！既然是要安全嘛！好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：最後是臺鐵特考，這個你事後再提供，第一個，原住民報考的人數，這一次的，已經放榜了嘛！"],["杜董事長微：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：然後是原住民錄取的人數，提供書面資料，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。接著我們請魯明哲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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«雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就"},{"start":313.16,"end":339.453,"text":"那如果這樣子的話那某種程度它就是毒品啊如果這樣子當然電子煙不等於毒品啊加熱煙也不等於毒品可是為什麼禁它為什麼台灣到現在為止不開放就是因為它可能會有這個東西在那裡這是一個很大的事情所以我現在就問你一個很具體的不要忘了今年去年2023國際麻醉品管制局報告"},{"start":340.393,"end":366.145,"text":"自貿區松散造成犯罪分子的濫用自貿區松散造成犯罪分子的濫用從現在來看就這個現象他是違禁品他是違禁品他是違禁品我就請問部長是你告訴我一個時間表可以嗎什麼時候把它清出去可不可以"},{"start":367.654,"end":393.787,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們是那個地方是儲放的不能進來這個部分的原則我們一定完全把握所以您這邊的數據它的庫存一直在增加增加表示沒有出去啦我們不會讓它出去有出去啦有啦有啦我們一定不會讓它出去這個數據我給你記住啦它有出去啦有出去啦報告委員我們會配合關務署有進來有出去都有啦我們會配合關務署您剛剛的提醒我聽到了都有都有你剛剛的提醒我聽到了幫你沒有時間不要幫你什麼都解決啊"},{"start":394.967,"end":400.615,"text":"我們用最快的速度跟衛福部還有關務署我們來協商因為您剛剛所提示到的有可能會有毒品的問題所以我們盡快在兩個月之內我們找他們來協調我們找他們來協調這個問題"},{"start":411.95,"end":424.967,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":431.094,"end":454.753,"text":"我再請教一下,今年的來台旅客目標1200萬人次王國才部長判入客能來今年2月份降等結果目標是1200萬結果到現在為止我們就600多今年根本就到不到1000萬了"},{"start":457.294,"end":464.137,"text":"主要原因現在你要選後目標要下修到一千萬人次而且我們的機場的這個我突然忘了放了我們那個漏水漏得很厲害機場啊"},{"start":472.088,"end":492.747,"text":"什麼時候可以改善?來,這個這個報告,報告委員齁,機場的改善我們一直持續在做啦齁那因為過去的機場很多的設置都希望能夠有採光所以做了大量的玻璃帷幕那現在因為極端氣候兩個部分一個部分是說天氣特別熱所以上面玻璃跟玻璃的銜接會有一些SILICONE會老化你看喔,因為有時間到了,不要當太多時間"},{"start":495.929,"end":510.136,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":515.671,"end":537.565,"text":"我就請教你啦最後請你給我一個答案今年一千萬人次能不能達到是不是確定不可能達到我們的目標是一千萬人次到目前為止差不多五百多萬接近六百萬左右那這個部分我們繼續在開到啦三個月而已啊跟委員報告當然壓力很大但是前線的同仁還在努力當中入客是不是請問你入客是不是很關鍵"},{"start":538.985,"end":557.653,"text":"陸客是關鍵但我一直希望陸客能夠來不過現在是中國方面也就是說中國的政府正在限制他們陸客來台的部分另外我們也很希望他們能夠開放我們的桃集在全球百大機場排名66名你知道我們台灣的經貿實力全世界派第幾你知道嗎16到18左右我們的經貿實力16到18結果我們的機場是66還是進步了上一次是80幾"},{"start":568.953,"end":575.937,"text":"這個東西很丟臉啦!部長!部長!這個很丟臉啦!你們告訴我在你任內我們展開雙手歡迎顧客來台我問你什麼時候可以讓我們的淘機的排名跟經貿的實力一樣20名內有沒有可能?"},{"start":589.13,"end":597.094,"text":"有可能,但是要大家一起來努力,大家一起來努力。你說現在66,我們會往前拉。在我任內一定會讓他進步,一定會讓他進步。謝謝委員。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:13:25 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12:23:32","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154898","gazette":{"lineno":865,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時13分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["賴委員士葆：部長早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：交通部是一個很大的部，它管的業務，你知不知道如果加一加大概有多少錢，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：加一加多少錢？"],["賴委員士葆：對，加一加多少錢，你管的業務有多大？"],["陳部長世凱：如果您所說的……"],["賴委員士葆：包括您底下的國營事業，全部加起來夯不啷噹的。"],["陳部長世凱：如果包含現在正在執行當中的工程的話，加起來可能六、七千億以上。"],["賴委員士葆：上兆喔！你要認真看，上兆喔！"],["陳部長世凱：所屬的那些我都加起來……"],["賴委員士葆：所屬的全部加起來上兆喔，很多業務喔！"],["陳部長世凱：對，那個沒有加進來。"],["賴委員士葆：因為你接部長，你說你年輕，有衝勁，好，那就要瞭解業務……"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒問題。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，你知不知道自由貿易港區是你管的？"],["陳部長世凱：我知道。"],["賴委員士葆：你知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們現在就看這個事情。你知不知道現在在自由貿易港區，到現在為止，電子煙彈有2,622PCE，加熱菸彈有兩萬五千多個KSK，這個K是指千。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["賴委員士葆：今年的3月就有很大的量，9月越來越多，部長啊……"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：聽我講好，幕僚的話先不要聽，你不要聽錯喔。"],["陳部長世凱：好，先聽你講。"],["賴委員士葆：你們現在進來的，按照關稅法，你們交通部的解釋，依據關稅法第十五條，這是違禁品。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那為什麼給它進來呢？從上一次在陳建仁在當院長的時候，我就質詢這個事情，結果越來越多，越來越多，你看，關務署說什麼？關務署是財政部的，國庫署也是財政部的，關務署是目的事業主管機關，它說從來沒有通知交通部可以核准輸入，關務署說電子煙、加熱菸是不得進口或者禁止輸入的物品，很明顯的這是違禁品。你告訴我，為什麼還這麼多？越來越多。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關務署的說法沒有錯，不得進口而且禁止輸入，這是一定的，它是違禁品，這一點確認沒有問題。"],["賴委員士葆：對。是。"],["陳部長世凱：目前自由貿易港區的部分，我們有詢問過衛福部，他們有表示說，轄管之指定的菸品，包含加熱菸，它必須要的組合元件，目前可以運到自由貿易港區內，但是有個但書，那個但書是作為轉口貿易為限，也就是說也符合關務署剛剛所講的不得進口且禁止輸入，但可以進到自由貿易港區儲放，接下來就必須要轉口出去，轉口的部分是可以做的，轉口貿易是可以做的，但絕對不能進來，這個部分我們一定會……"],["賴委員士葆：你這個講法太年輕了，太嫩的講法喔！"],["陳部長世凱：請指教。"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼光一堆加熱菸、電子煙在這裡，就等著我們這個法要通過，它要進來臺灣啦！你這個轉口出去的，請問如果按照你這樣講，他們這樣講可以接受的話，那請問你，這裡面可以不可以放嗎啡，可不可以？可不可以？我就問你，可不可以？如果按照你這樣講轉出去可以，那轉出去如果是槍砲，可以不可以？毒品可以不可以？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，毒品跟犯罪的都不行。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那你要知道，為什麼加熱菸、電子煙現在來講被列為違禁品，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：應該是因為健康的因素吧。"],["賴委員士葆：健康，能不能再具體一點？"],["陳部長世凱：目前國內也應該……"],["賴委員士葆：因為電子煙的煙彈裡面很容易含有大麻的萃取物，大麻在臺灣現在是二級毒品，主要是因為這樣，幾乎全世界都在禁電子煙。加熱菸，衛福部是說業者可以申請，但是到現在為止，沒有准一件，一件都沒有。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["賴委員士葆：所以，加熱菸跟電子煙基本上來講，就是大家會擔心抽這個，特別是電子煙，抽電子煙其實就是抽化學物，裡面很容易有我剛剛提到的大麻，有一些現在最少是二級毒品的萃取物在裡面，這個對健康是很大的傷害。如果這樣的話，某種程度它就是毒品。當然電子煙不等於毒品，加熱菸也不等於毒品，可是為什麼禁它？為什麼臺灣到現在為止不開放？就是因為它可能會有這個東西在裡面，這是一個很大的事情。所以，我現在就問你一個很具體的問題，不要忘了，去年2023年國際麻醉品管制局報告，自貿區鬆散造成犯罪份子濫用，從現在來看就有這個現象，它是違禁品。我再請問部長，你告訴我一個時間表，可以嗎？你們什麼時候把它清出去，可不可以？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於這部分，那個地方是儲放不能進來，這個原則我們一定完全把握，所以您這邊的數據，它的庫存一直在增加……"],["賴委員士葆：你庫存一直增加……"],["陳部長世凱：增加表示沒有出去，我們不會讓它出去……"],["賴委員士葆：有出去啦，有，這個數字我比你清楚啦！"],["陳部長世凱：我們一定不會讓它出去。但是這個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：它有出去啦！有出去啦！有出去啦！"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，我會配合關務署……"],["賴委員士葆：有進來、有出去，都有啦！"],["陳部長世凱：我們會配合關務署，您剛剛的提醒，我聽到了……"],["賴委員士葆：都有、都有。"],["陳部長世凱：您剛剛的提醒我聽到了。"],["賴委員士葆：不，你給我時間表，不然你什麼時候解決啊？"],["陳部長世凱：我們用最快的速度跟衛福部還有關務署來協商，針對這方面的問題……"],["賴委員士葆：兩個月可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：因為您剛剛所提示的可能會有毒品的問題，所以我們儘快。好，兩個月之內我們找他們來協調……"],["賴委員士葆：兩個月，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們找他們來協調、協商這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：可以？好，把這個問題處理好，包括財政部的關務署，包括衛福部，衛福部其實它的也有一個……"],["陳部長世凱：對，關務署、衛福部。"],["賴委員士葆：這個我查了很久，查了差不多快一年了，衛福部給我們的答案就是，他沒有告訴你們可以進來，他沒有！"],["陳部長世凱：國庫署說沒有，衛福部有啦！"],["賴委員士葆：第二個，我再請教一下，今年來台旅客的目標是1,200萬人次，王國材部長盼陸客能來，今年2月份講的，目標是1,200萬人次，結果到現在為止，我們只有六百多萬旅客，今年根本就達不到1,000萬啦！主要的原因，現在你看選後的目標下修到1,000萬人次。這部分我忘了放圖，我們的機場漏水漏得很厲害耶！什麼時候可以改善？這個，你來看一下。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，機場的改善我們一直持續在做，因為過去機場很多的設置都希望能夠有採光，所以做了大量的玻璃帷幕，現在極端氣候有兩個部分，一個部分是天氣特別熱，所以上面玻璃跟玻璃的銜接，會有一些silicon會老化，這個部分我會要求機場公司……"],["賴委員士葆：因為我的時間到了，不要耽誤太多時間。你看9月12日，才前幾天的事情，高雄國際機場12日起連續3天漏水；上個月（8月）的時候桃機二航廈漏水漏得一塌糊塗，你看剛剛那一張，漏得一塌糊塗，這個東西很丟臉。我最後就請教你，請你給我一個答案，今年能不能達到1,000萬人次？是不是確定不可能達到？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們的目標是1,000萬人次，到目前為止，差不多有五百多萬，接近600萬左右，這個部分我們繼續努力。"],["賴委員士葆：快到了，只剩3個月而已啊！"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，當然壓力很大，但是前線的同仁還在努力當中。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，陸客是不是很關鍵？"],["陳部長世凱：陸客是關鍵，我一直希望陸客能夠來，不過現在是中國方面，也就是說，中國政府正在限制他們陸客來臺的部分，我們也很希望他們能夠開放讓陸客來。"],["賴委員士葆：另外，我們的桃機在全球百大機場排名第66名，你知道我們臺灣的經貿實力在全世界排第幾嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：請委員指教。"],["賴委員士葆：排第16到18左右。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["賴委員士葆：我們的經貿實力是排第16到18，結果我們的機場是第66，這還是有進步了，上一次是第八十幾，這個東西很丟臉啦！"],["陳部長世凱：所以觀光客要多，我們會積極來努力爭取國外的觀光客。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，這個很丟臉啦！你能不能告訴我在你任內……"],["陳部長世凱：我們展開雙手歡迎陸客來臺。"],["賴委員士葆：我問你，什麼時候可以讓我們桃機的排名跟經貿實力一樣在20名內？有沒有可能？"],["陳部長世凱：有可能，但是要大家一起來努力，現在是排第66，我們會往前拉。"],["賴委員士葆：你不就應該拍一下胸口然後說：在我任內一定可以到20名以內，你敢這樣說嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：在我任內一定會讓它進步，謝謝委員。"],["主席（游委員顥代）：好，謝謝賴士葆委員，也希望交通部協調陸委會積極作為，謝謝。","接著有請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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陳部長"},{"start":38.533,"end":62.28,"text":"那也大家對於部長就任交通部長之後大家有許多的期待那其實在看今天交通部所屬許多的單位確實也很盡責的在昨天其實幾乎都在跟交通委員進行拜會所以大約超過八成現場的就是主管其實昨天都已經針對很多議題做討論"},{"start":65.783,"end":89.224,"text":"那也知道部長是很有憧憬其實為了想說要跟你更多的深入探討我跟我的辦公室就花了好長一段時間把你臉書所有的爬文都爬過了還有把你以前把瓦台中市議會提的三接院提的許多案子都大致上都看過了"},{"start":90.405,"end":116.101,"text":"那我在想許多的重大的建設,尤其是在交通我們交通委員所關心其實那時候你在陪同不管是蔡英文總統或是賴清德總統不管在競選期間其實你應該都了解他們的承諾那我是想要先直接先就教一下那在終結進南投的部分那是不是部長也可以向這個承諾這個是支持"},{"start":116.841,"end":124.639,"text":"支持這個終極青藍軸的建設那同時是預估在什麼期間的時候是可以有一個完成或進度"},{"start":125.51,"end":150.068,"text":"我們這個臺中的這個捷運的部分我知道油耗委員一直非常關心能不能夠進去到南投縣因為目前我看南投草屯這邊的人口也越來越多在網內其實觀光的價值也非常的高那目前比較有可能是我們臺中的局縣臺中市的局縣那目前正在進行可行性的研究可行性研究那目前我們希望"},{"start":151.711,"end":174.413,"text":"對我們希望他能夠一方面其實台中市那邊的委員也在爭取能夠延伸到霧峰那如果假使到霧峰其實跨過去這個南投的草屯只差了一條溪跨過溪大概就到草屯了所以距離並不遠那需求也應該有那這個部分我們會希望台中市政府在可行性研究的"},{"start":174.693,"end":175.413,"text":"所以部長你是表態是全力支持嗎?"},{"start":195.675,"end":217.385,"text":"其實我覺得整個都會區的交通的便捷尤其是公共運輸的交通便捷是相當的重要那我也理解說草屯這邊的生活圈其實已經跟大台中的這個都市的生活圈大部分是併在一起了所以未來我相信這個需求會越來越高那如果越來越高的時候我們朝這個方向努力我是覺得是可以的真的是支持"},{"start":218.952,"end":238.853,"text":"我蠻支持的但是要看可行性研究的狀況怎麼做那大致上就是可行性評估以及包括後面劉佑就接南投的這個區塊的這個相關的報告以及相關的這個這條局限上的部分那在有勞交通部這邊能夠協調的都是政府南投省政府一定也是全力配合"},{"start":239.574,"end":254.852,"text":"是那今天的主要的重點在這個行人地域的部分那在2022年的這篇報導上來講那CNN來評論就是目前我國的交通路行人地域那這一則報導來講那部長你覺得公允嗎?"},{"start":258.036,"end":273.241,"text":"這樣的文字當然對台灣來講是一個非常大的傷害不過我也必須要說的是台灣的這個交通的狀況確實是很多的民眾很擔憂我自己在路上也會覺得這個部分是應該要再更積極的加強跟檢討跟改進的部分"},{"start":274.441,"end":292.613,"text":"那我想就交交部長那像目前來講因為我知道你有準備了很多資料你覺得在任內一開始之後你覺得最主要要推的三件的一個重點是如何能夠盡速的來改善這個交通的這個問題"},{"start":293.683,"end":316.344,"text":"我想當時我上任之後大概第四天吧有這個交通安全的這個記者會我們每一週都召開那我大概過了上任之後四天每個月我都會召開一次那上任四天就召開了啦那當時的媒體的朋友也有問到這件事那我說的說法是這樣子我們先窮盡一切工程改善的可能性"},{"start":316.764,"end":331.296,"text":"在工程面做改善道路的安全的部分。那第二個,針對這個行人交通安全跟行車安全的這個觀念的教育跟宣導我們必須要多做一些。那第三個,因為我們看到這個造勢的樣態"},{"start":333.157,"end":356.402,"text":"百分之二十一是因為車子沒有禮讓行人的違規百分之十九是因為行人沒有依照標線標誌穿越馬路所造成的違規那總共已經佔了四成是違規的樣態所以最後我還有提到的一個是所謂的執法面的部分那剛剛很多委員在關心其實我講的蠻完整的但很可惜的是媒體只標註了後面那一個那但是還有第四個"},{"start":357.162,"end":358.203,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫"},{"start":372.389,"end":397.484,"text":"好那我就直接就叫裡面的宣導的部分那在目前來講在今年度總共交通部辦了多少次的相關的這種交通安全的宣導以及在哪些面向哪些單位有辦理過以及在未來的話在宣導如何來去做加強因為在日本其實是很重宣導的這塊尤其在學校的部分但是目前交通部在今年截至目前為止總共辦了多少場次"},{"start":398.54,"end":427.365,"text":"報告委員場次的部分你說細節我大概等一下再請相關單位跟您報告但是我必須要跟委員報告的是說我們針對樂齡中心或者是老人比較聚集的地方我們都有在做那另外其實比較多一點的是我們跟地方政府一起合作的包含新北市政府、台中市政府等等的很多地方政府其實我們都有合作在做這個宣導跟教育的工作那我們也都有補助經費給他們因為這個教育不是只有教育那個交通部來做就夠了"},{"start":427.705,"end":450.641,"text":"部長我就是打斷一下就是當然說我知道有心要做所以說這個交通部在輔助那我也希望本席希望能夠得到資料那不管是我們來提供給縣市政府以及說不管是在因為我們都議員出身啦那所以說在地方社區啊包括熱林中心啊或是各種社團級都有在跑那所以說有沒有配合"},{"start":451.501,"end":477.371,"text":"現時政府或警察局他們在宣導的話其實大致上我們都會預告所以我想說那目前配合現在政府在今年度截至目前為止辦了多少場次以及未來預計過的話多少場次還有在哪些的面向包括是在學校還辦了多少場次因為交通部必須要完全掌握他才能夠針對這個宣導來去做一個全面甚至說在一些特別的案例還有像是我們看到這次的一個不幸的悲劇"},{"start":478.551,"end":504.914,"text":"所以說我們希望說在這種宣導上能夠持續加強因為工程的改善、執法等等相關都是大家都一定清楚的好那我們再來看這個你曾經有提過一個在臉書上的文章全區盲點系統就是盲區內輪車主動警示系統列入公車評鑑項目這你應該也很懷念這是你那時候你推動當初我在議員任內的時候爭取希望能夠做到的"},{"start":504.994,"end":531.604,"text":"那我想請教一下那像你推動的這麼重要的一個雖然能夠列入評鑑那目前全國納入評鑑的一個情況如何報告委員當時我是擔任議員所以我在爭取的是臺中市政府要將這些項目納入評鑑那當時臺中市政府有一些已經加進去了那現在全國各縣市政府全國各縣市政府目前為止我沒有掌握這些那知道嗎市長"},{"start":532.684,"end":537.789,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":548.658,"end":573.732,"text":"那沒關係那我是希望說在過去您當議員期間的理念那我相信這個一定也是地方意見的一個會期那能夠在您當部長的時候也能夠簡單就看了這一件那就會看一下下次我們在一個時間或下個會期再看一下目前推動的執行的一個情況未來推動能執行的狀況我會跟委員來報告因為我們還看到很多提案我覺得來看一下到時候如果在全國來實踐"},{"start":575.433,"end":600.823,"text":"那再來的話我們看一下集集支線基礎建設那這個部分昨天董事長來的時候也有提到說希望能夠加快在集集支線的一個就是提早能夠完工因為目前集集水里確實因為這樣剛剛受到很大的影響那我想請教一下就是是不是讓這個董事長簡單說一下目前完成的騎乘一機希望能夠提早"},{"start":601.403,"end":602.204,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就"},{"start":618.745,"end":633.011,"text":"讓董事長補充一下謝謝委員剛剛委員提到的我們集計支線的一個整修的計畫我們是預計在明年的年底來做一個恢復通車那這個現在都在進程上面我們會努力來進行"},{"start":634.292,"end":650.336,"text":"好 那太好了那我在想目前來講期程它是規劃在2026年那如果說到時候能夠確實能夠完成這個進度的時候我們再邀部長來地方上再來跟大家做一個會開說明是 我們希望能夠加速加強謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:02:13 - 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都理解過一輪了而且我也到地方上面去各個局處該看的地方我也都盡量去看過我們不是只有在辦公室聽簡報我們也是用行動管理的方式那另外也跟委員報告我們所屬的單位其實有相當多的工會那也有很多勞工的權益的問題那我到目前為止也已經拜訪過四個工會那理解說每個單位的員工的想法"},{"start":57.259,"end":84.241,"text":"部長雖然您過去的經歷與交通業務關係不大不過本席原來希望您將會是一位稱職的交通部長希望部長加油本席想就這次本次的專報題目就教部長幾個問題首先我們今年的9月5號部長您在道安記者會有針對那個道路安全有提出9月起加強執法增加見警率那隨後遭基層員級批評官員拿不出良策需要警察背鍋"},{"start":85.021,"end":109.176,"text":"那隨後交通部門只有回應說提高見舉率主要是針對新人死亡較多的縣市不是所有的縣市都要強力大執法那這邊我想就叫我們的李副署長警政署的主管機關是誰執法的部門嗎警政署的主管機關主管就是交通組主管機關"},{"start":111.36,"end":112.581,"text":"跟委員報告其實早上有其他委員有問過這個問題"},{"start":134.503,"end":146.068,"text":"我覺得蠻可惜的因為針對交通安全的議題還有行人安全的議題我那天的論述其實相當的完整首先我希望能夠極盡可能的把工程改善的部分把它做好那第二個部分是教育的部分要做好"},{"start":150.19,"end":174.046,"text":"這樣說好了,執法面確實不是交通部的夜館但記者的問題是說針對行人道安的部分因為我剛剛有講過行人的死亡率有佔40%是因為違規而違規的樣態我們希望能夠有執法面來嚇阻大家違規的這個想法所以我們當然會做這樣的建議但這樣的建議不代表交通部可以這麼做但我們會去跟警政單位跟內政部來溝通"},{"start":174.887,"end":199.452,"text":"那我們這邊有實際的執行計畫了嗎?有明確了嗎?執行計畫,警政署和交通部?這樣說好了,我們的聯繫匯報其實裡面都有講不過說實在話,因為警政署是內政部所管轄那由內政部他們來決定怎麼樣執法我們能夠講的只有一點,就是說加強執法的部分必須要做這是交通部可以給的建議,如此而已是,我這邊就叫我們的李副署長"},{"start":201.156,"end":207.363,"text":"警政署在交通執法的部分我們對於行人交通事故發生"},{"start":216.414,"end":231.673,"text":"警政署負責的部分就是交通執法的部分那我們在對於行人交通安全的部分我們對於就是對於重大交通違規的部分包括路口不停讓行人還有非號字化路口未停車再開"},{"start":232.814,"end":248.914,"text":"人行道違規停車這幾樣的重大違規沒關係相信部長相信部長提出見警率是為了要增強民眾對交通安全的信心啦對不過部長希望那之後呢希望不要太過著急那這樣反而會造成反效果因為我們希望可以看到實際的計畫施行計畫"},{"start":250.376,"end":279.284,"text":"好 報告委員其實說實在話我剛才也提過執法面其實不是交通部能夠做的啦我們只能建議那如果大家未來認為說執法面的建議交通部不需要多做其實或許我們未來的這個建議會減少我可以只有講工程面我們可以努力的部分還有這個交通安全宣導的部分因為據實交通部的權責是軟硬體設施的監管那包括像是交通動線然後還有我們行車交通安全的通行環境報告委員"},{"start":279.864,"end":302.279,"text":"就是因為全國的民眾跟我們所有的委員都相當關心行人的安全那跟道路的安全那這個部分其實大家都很期許交通部能夠多做一些所以講得比較完整部長的本意是出發點是好那這邊也要提醒部長因為我們來看到我們內政部的資料顯示全國遠景缺二數不斷攀升我們可以看到從110年從3000"},{"start":304.981,"end":331.836,"text":"三千四百二十八人提高到一百一十二年的四千四百八十八人另外我們也看到犯監案數也是逐年的攀升所以基層員警都已經不夠了可是犯案數也越來越高那基層員警他們在查緝案件的時候時間都不夠了要如果他們要為了提升您所您說的就是見警率去站入口的話那無疑是加重我們基層員警的工作負擔且壓縮其他的業務時間那部長還要繼續執行"},{"start":335.017,"end":361.436,"text":"報告委員,如果委員您認為說增加執法或者是這個增加見警率或增加遠景門的工作負擔希望交通部未來不要再提這方面的這個建議沒有問題,我們未來不提只要委員認為說這些執法面不需要交通部來建議那我們就不要去建議由內政部他們自己去判斷說該怎麼再增加執法或者是加強執法面該怎麼做"},{"start":366.58,"end":386.98,"text":"部長我們這邊也看到我們造成上半年行人死亡的人數高於去年同期的死亡人數的責任那很多我們要想想真的都是地方政府的錯嗎?如果將全數的過錯推給地方政府那對地方政府是非常的不公平法規是交通部定的那責任也是我們常常看到交通部都推給地方那難道交通部沒有責任嗎?請部長說明"},{"start":387.76,"end":411.657,"text":"報告委員我剛剛有說過全國的民眾包含所有的委員對於交通的改善其實大家最期許的是交通部要更努力所以我們才會提出這麼多的建議但是交通部當然要負擔很大的責任但是中央跟地方是一體的因為說實在話民眾走在路上發生了這個安全事故上面的問題那個跟中央跟地方大家不會去分那個"},{"start":412.498,"end":433.732,"text":"我們重點是要讓他能夠達到安全的狀況我們看到就是針對機車免兩段式左轉取消進行機車還有大型重機車停車格的問題甚至是道路的設計還有標誌標線等問題那常常都會用因地之疑來回復民眾的質疑那本席就是在想交通部是不是是不是要這樣的慣例是不是該廢除"},{"start":435.049,"end":451.722,"text":"其實標誌、標線跟號誌的指引中央只能夠訂立那個指引啦但實際上地方要怎麼去畫設停車格要怎麼去畫這些線是地方政府的權責那中央確實也沒有辦法去代替他們來做這樣子的工作這些是地方政府必須要去做的"},{"start":452.782,"end":472.031,"text":"那修法的部分要不要來做檢討修法的部分我們正在進行檢討當中這個部分其實委員也提供很多很好的建議那我們也都會納入那這個部分我們希望把整個修法面修得更完善然後讓交通更安全OK那接下來有請我們台鐵公司杜威董事長杜董事長"},{"start":481.603,"end":497.549,"text":"朱董事長好那朱董事長您有提到中秋禮金是依照交通部所屬機關員工紀律還有表揚的要點嗎發放那是依照公務人員紀律的辦法那紀律的辦法發放這獎勵不得以現金發放所以您所以現在目前我們"},{"start":498.269,"end":524.017,"text":"台鐵的同仁有在反應,那您和部長有討論了嗎?是,有討論,有討論,這個部分我們有討論,那我們交通部的部分也積極在協助,協助台鐵公司來做這方面的處理,我們知道說員工們的希望跟需求,那所以這個部分我也已經,因為規定是在全序部那邊,我已經跟全序部做聯繫,如果有需要的話我會親自到全序部去跟他們做溝通,"},{"start":524.537,"end":541.705,"text":"那不過,法令上面的規定到底能不能完成,這個不是交通部能夠在這邊決定的。是,那本席這邊也要提醒,勞動基準法第22條規定,公知知己夫應以法定通用貨幣為職,那接下來要怎麼發放給我們的台鐵同仁?"},{"start":543.383,"end":561.129,"text":"您是說獎金嗎對獎金有獎金的規定有獎金的規定對獎金薪資不一樣那這邊我這邊有有我們基層的同仁反映說臺鐵員工據勞工的身份啊因以勞基法來發放獎金他臺鐵公司是不發現金非法源的問題是不是不想發"},{"start":562.369,"end":571.916,"text":"不會啦那個跟委員報告如果今天可以發現金是那我們為什麼還要再多花時間去申購禮券來發放給同仁"},{"start":574.575,"end":591.623,"text":"因為原則上公司花的錢都一樣他們也不希望再多一次的行政手續再去換成禮券他們也希望能夠發現金那現在是卡在法規上面的問題那這個部分我們交通部盡量來協助"},{"start":592.836,"end":609.118,"text":"是 那也希望就是部長那個針對我們那個見警率希望就是所以接下來提升見警率的部分我們交通部還會委員交代我以後就不會再講見警率甚至執法面的部分我們就請內政部他們來說明就可以了OK 好 謝謝部長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:51:47 - 12:01:58","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154896","gazette":{"lineno":746,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時51分）謝謝主席。主席，麻煩請交通部陳部長，還有警政署李副署長。"],["主席：請陳部長，警政署副署長。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：首先還是要恭喜部長成為卓內閣第二位交通部長。部長，您自9月2日就職以來至今23天了，對交通部的業務都還熟悉嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，每一個局處該做簡報的我都已經理解過一輪了，而且我也有到地方上，各個局處該看的地方我也都儘量去看過了，我們不是只有在辦公室聽簡報，我們也是用行動管理的方式。另外也跟委員報告，我們所屬的單位其實有相當多的工會，也有很多勞工的權益問題，我到目前為止也已經拜訪過4個工會，理解每個單位員工的想法。"],["邱委員若華：部長，雖然您過去的經歷與交通業務關係不大，不過本席仍然希望您將會是一位稱職的交通部長，希望部長加油。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員，我會努力。"],["邱委員若華：本席想就本次的專報題目就教部長幾個問題，首先，今年的9月5號，部長在道安記者會針對道路安全有提出自9月起加強執法、增加見警率，隨後遭到基層員警批評官員拿不出良策卻要警察背鍋。隨後交通部只有回應提高見警率主要是針對行人死亡較多的縣市，不是所有的縣市都要強力大執法。在這邊我想就教我們的李副署長，警政署的主管機關是誰？"],["李副署長政曉：執法的部分嗎？"],["邱委員若華：警政署的主管機關。"],["李副署長政曉：主管的就是交通組。"],["邱委員若華：主管機關！"],["陳部長世凱：你們是內政部。"],["邱委員若華：是內政部，那我們交通部能夠來指揮警政署嗎？"],["李副署長政曉：因為內政部跟交通部有任務的分工。"],["邱委員若華：有任務的分工？"],["李副署長政曉：我們內政部只負責執法的部分。"],["邱委員若華：是，那陳部長這邊有向我們警政署提出見警率的政策嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，其實早上也有其他委員問過這個問題，我覺得滿可惜的，因為針對交通安全的議題，還有行人安全的議題，我那天的論述其實相當的完整。首先，我希望能夠極盡可能的把工程改善的部分做好……"],["邱委員若華：是，您有提到科技執法的部分……"],["陳部長世凱：對，第二個部分是教育的部分要做好……"],["邱委員若華：我這邊想要問的是有開會討論過了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這樣說好了，執法面確實不是交通部的業管，但記者的問題是針對行人道安的部分，我剛剛有講過，行人的死亡率有40%是因為違規，而違規的樣態，我們希望能夠由執法面來嚇阻大家違規的這個想法，所以我們當然會做這樣的建議，但這樣的建議不代表交通部可以這麼做，我們會去跟警政單位、內政部來溝通。"],["邱委員若華：那我們這邊有實際的執行計畫了嗎？有明確了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：蛤？"],["邱委員若華：執行計畫，警政署和交通部。"],["陳部長世凱：這樣說好了，我們的聯繫會報其實裡面都有講，不過說實在話，因為警政署是內政部管轄，由內政部他們來決定怎麼樣執法，我們能夠講的只有一點，就是加強執法的部分必須要做，這是交通部可以給的建議，如此而已。"],["邱委員若華：我這邊就教李副署長。"],["李副署長政曉：對於行人交通事故的發生，警政署負責的就是交通執法；有關行人交通安全，我們對於重大交通違規的部分，包括路口不停讓行人、非號誌化路口未停車再開、人行道違規停車等這幾樣的重大違規，我們加強取締……"],["邱委員若華：沒關係，相信部長提出見警率是為了增強民眾對交通安全的信心啦，不過，部長，希望日後不要太過躁進，這樣反而會造成反效果，我們希望可以看到實際的計畫、施行計畫。"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，其實說實在話，我剛剛也提過，執法面其實不是交通部能夠做的啦，我們只能建議，如果大家未來認為執法面的建議交通部不需要多做，其實或許我們未來對這個部分的建議會減少，我可以只講工程面我們可以努力的部分，還有交通安全宣導的部分，我們來多執行，這個部分沒有問題。"],["邱委員若華：確實交通部的權責是軟硬體設施的建管，包括像是交通動線……"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有問題……"],["邱委員若華：還有我們行人交通安全的通行環境。"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，就是因為全國民眾跟我們所有委員都相當關心行人的安全跟道路的安全，這個部分其實大家都很期許交通部能夠多做一些，所以交通部會講得比較完整。"],["邱委員若華：我知道部長的本意、出發點是好的，這邊也要提醒部長……"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["邱委員若華：因為我們看到內政部的資料顯示，全國員警缺額數不斷攀升，可以看到缺額數從110年的3,428人提高到112年的4,488人，另外我們也看到犯案件數是逐年攀升，基層員警都已經不夠了，可是犯案件數越來越高，基層員警查緝案件的時間都不夠了，如果他們為了提升您所說的見警率去站路口的話，那無疑是加重我們基層員警的工作負擔，而且壓縮其他業務的時間，部長還要繼續執行嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果委員認為增加執法或者是增加見警率會增加員警們的工作負擔，希望交通部未來不要再提這方面的建議，沒有問題，我們未來不提，只要委員認為說這些執法面不需要交通部來建議，那我們就不要去建議，由內政部他們自己去判斷該怎麼增加執法，或者是加強執法面該怎麼做。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好。副署長可以先請回。","部長，我們這邊也看到造成上半年行人死亡人數高於去年同期死亡人數的責任，我們要想想，真的都是地方政府的錯嗎？如果將全數的過錯推給地方政府，對地方政府非常的不公平，法規是交通部訂的，但責任的部分，我們常看到交通部都推給地方，難道交通部沒有責任嗎？請部長說明。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我剛剛有說過，全國的民眾，包含所有的委員，對於交通的改善，其實大家最期許的是交通部要更努力，所以我們才會提出這麼多的建議，交通部當然要負擔很大的責任，但是中央跟地方是一體的，因為說實在話，民眾走在路上發生了安全事故上面的問題，責任到底是中央還是地方，大家不會去分那個啦，我們重點是要讓它能夠達到安全的狀況。"],["邱委員若華：本席會這樣提是因為過去我們看到針對機車免兩段式左轉、取消禁行機車還有大型重機車停車格的問題，甚至是道路的設計，還有標誌標線等問題，常常都會用因地制宜來回復民眾的質疑，本席就在想交通部這樣的慣例是不是該廢除？"],["陳部長世凱：其實標誌標線跟號誌的指引，中央只能夠訂立那個指引啦，實際上地方要怎麼去劃設停車格，要怎麼去劃這些線是地方政府的權責，中央確實沒有辦法去代替他們來做這樣子的工作，這些是地方政府必須要去做的。"],["邱委員若華：那修法的部分要不要來檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：修法的部分我們正在進行檢討當中。"],["邱委員若華：正在進行檢討當中？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分其實委員也提供很多很好的建議，我們也都會納入，我們希望把整個修法面修得更完善，然後讓交通更安全。"],["邱委員若華：OK。接下來有請臺鐵公司杜微董事長。"],["主席：好，請杜董事長。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：杜董事長好。杜董事長，你有提到中秋禮金是依照交通部與所屬機關員工激勵及表揚要點發放，要點是依照公務人員激勵辦法，而激勵辦法發放之獎勵不得以現金方式發放。針對這個部分，現在我們臺鐵的同仁有在反映，您和部長有討論了嗎？"],["杜董事長微：是，有討論。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們有討論，我們交通部也積極在協助臺鐵公司來做這方面的處理，我們知道員工們的希望跟需求啦，對於這個部分，因為規定是在銓敘部那邊，我已經跟銓敘部做聯繫，如果有需要的話，我會親自到銓敘部去跟他們做溝通。不過法令上面的規定到底能不能完成，這個不是交通部能夠在這邊決定的。"],["邱委員若華：是，本席這邊也要提醒，勞動基準法第二十二條規定，工資之給付應以法定通用貨幣為之，接下來要怎麼發放給我們的臺鐵同仁？"],["杜董事長微：您是說獎金嗎？"],["邱委員若華：對。"],["杜董事長微：獎金有獎金的規定。"],["邱委員若華：有獎金的規定？"],["杜董事長微：對，獎金、薪資不一樣。"],["邱委員若華：我們有看到基層同仁反映說，臺鐵員工具勞工身分應依勞基法來發放獎金，臺鐵公司不發現金非法源問題，而是不想發。是不是？"],["杜董事長微：不會啦，跟委員報告，如果今天可以發現金，我們為什麼還要再多花時間去申購禮券來發放給同仁？"],["邱委員若華：那也再請杜董事長和臺鐵同仁說明一下。"],["杜董事長微：不會，我們是要有法源才能發現金。"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，因為原則上公司花的錢都一樣，他們也不希望多一次的行政手續再去換成禮券，他們也希望能夠發現金，現在是卡在法規上面的問題，這個部分，我們交通部儘量來協助。"],["邱委員若華：是，也希望部長針對見警率，接下來提高見警率的部分我們交通部還會……"],["陳部長世凱：委員交代，我以後就不會再講見警率，甚至執法面的部分，我們就請內政部他們來說明就可以了，好不好？"],["邱委員若華：OK，好，謝謝部長，謝謝董事長。"],["杜董事長微：謝謝委員。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。","接下來請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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東、三艘在台南、兩艘在高雄那目前我們交通部有掌握到這一相關的一個事故的原因嗎?"},{"start":194.535,"end":219.002,"text":"報告委員那當時我們也有依照SOP就是開米颱風要來之前我們有依照SOP像這種次標準船我們就會請他駛離港區不要讓他在港區裡面那這一次是因為這個西南氣流非常的強大甚至其中有一艘八艘擱淺的裡面其中有一艘其實已經距離岸邊40公里差不多40公里的距離但因為這個西南氣流實在太強大所以還是把它吹到了岸邊來造成這個擱淺"},{"start":220.502,"end":247.644,"text":"那所以針對這個部分交通部當然有掌握航港局這邊也當然有掌握這個沒有問題那另外就是說對緊急的抽油的部分我們也都已經完成至少它雖然擱淺但至少我們不要讓油污去污染到我們的海岸這個部分我們有做緊急的處理那目前已經脫離了兩艘已經兩艘離開了但是我們還有六艘我們正在積極努力在做處理那我們也跟傳通的部分也積極要做配合"},{"start":248.104,"end":276.632,"text":"不然因為這些擱淺的船這個已經變成我們的觀光景點了但可能也要打卡那尤其我自己我自己還到現場去看的時候覺得很危險因為大家有的靠得很近拍照甚至我還聽說有人爬上去塗鴉的這實在是很危險那所以針對目前還在擱淺的這個船隻我們也要求我們港務局應該要盡快的來做後續的一個處理並這個要再造成後續的一個會積極處理"},{"start":280.815,"end":299.608,"text":"另外針對目前還有一些擱淺的船隻我知道昨天那個局長來的時候有特別提到有一艘在台南的一個船隻它是登記在一個香港公司但是這個航號已經解散多年那變成我們即使開出了一個違規的一個罰單本來就是找不到人處理啦針對這樣的狀況我們後續怎麼處理"},{"start":304.828,"end":319.709,"text":"我想一方面我們會看這個船公司在台灣的資產的部分我們會先去調查先處理那二方面我也會積極準備如果在國際上面有一些司法的動作需要做的話我們也會積極做準備那這個細節是不是請局長是"},{"start":324.537,"end":344.981,"text":"這艘船的船東是香港商我們這個採儲處已經透過陸委會已經兩度都轉請這個船東來開始採訪那另外一方面就是像剛剛部長所提的後續有必要我們會以國際訴訟的方式來追查這個船東的這個責任"},{"start":346.401,"end":369.849,"text":"目前綱要之急就是剛剛委員提到的部長剛剛有提到油已經抽完了我們現在就是避免船在沙岸上造成潛在的危險我們現在已經緊急委託廠商預計在50個工作天左右要來進行拆除我們10月20號會來決標50個工作天來完成這個拆除"},{"start":374.591,"end":381.665,"text":"所以這個部分我們會特別來加速那追查的部分我想我們還是會積極來追查來保障這個機關應有的權益"},{"start":386.404,"end":414.857,"text":"我想在這邊還是要再次提醒交通部因為我們現在的極端氣候那麼按聲稱原本40公里就有扣的一個距離就事實上包含我們仿山也把我們一些養殖的一些管線整個都破壞掉了所以未來針對這個一個書山或是入港的部分甚至後續採取部分也應該請交通部要做一個比較完善的一個處理機制這個我們會有一個更好的處理機制因為這個部分我們交通部管的是港"},{"start":415.717,"end":435.123,"text":"那我們請他離港之後的那個距離我們已經有跟海巡那邊有做討論有開過兩次的會已經開過兩次的會那未來我們也會劃設海域上面的警戒區那拜託海巡這邊協助讓這些船隻可以到達更安全的距離然後避免未來又影響到我們自己的海岸"},{"start":436.28,"end":462.508,"text":"另外針對我想剛剛我們有好幾位委員都提到這個行人地域這個事情那我想我們的行政團隊也做了非常的努力但是根據數據來顯示我們今年一到六月的行人事故死亡183人還是比去年同年增加了一個10人那尤其是車輛位移規定讓行人先行還有號誌標誌跟標線穿越道路這些問題那我想最近我們"},{"start":463.788,"end":481.516,"text":"我們在地方也聽到很多的聲音因為目前我們大概都會透過一些科技執法的部分來減輕我們的一個同仁的負擔還有我們警員的一個負擔但是相對性科技執法越多罰單越多民運也不斷那針對這個部分部長怎麼樣去思考這個問題"},{"start":483.077,"end":511.047,"text":"這個部分我們還是希望說減少事故的方面我剛剛有講過第一個部分我們要窮盡所有的工程的可能性我們在工程面做改善那另外一方面民眾的這個交通安全的教育的宣導要把交通安全這個概念跟觀念置入到所有的民眾的腦海裡面這個是最重要的其實要減少違規的話教育還是最重要的大家如果有守法守規的觀念的話基本上不太需要執法不太需要執法"},{"start":511.787,"end":532.397,"text":"那所以當大家觀念不足而我們又希望能夠讓一些人有警惕的時候執法那當然也是一個必要的手段不過那個平衡點的部分可能可以討論那這個部分因為執法面不是在交通部是內政部所管轄的那這個部分內政部應該也會做很妥適的這個安排平衡點他們會去抓"},{"start":533.197,"end":549.778,"text":"部長那因為我知道我們目前有盤點了全台灣799處的一個路口改善進度嘛但看起來6度的比例還是遠高於非6度那尤其屏東縣目前只有8條被列入這樣子一個改善的一個路段那我認為這樣的評估是"},{"start":552.02,"end":571.811,"text":"有問題的因為依我們屏東縣來講這個幅員遼闊那城鄉的差距又很大那真的這樣的狀況是不是有機會我們重新來盤點過那另外針對我們屏東縣政府的發報的部分確實也因為經費的不足所以造成有些危險路段發報也不容易這部分是不是請交通部也來主動來協助"},{"start":572.791,"end":598.882,"text":"如果可以的話這個發包的經費不足的部分我們盡量來協助因為我們所知道是只要他年底之前完工應該是中央政府會全額來補助所以經費上面應該問題不會這麼大但是如果屏東縣政府有需要協助的部分沒有問題我們就來我們主動來跟屏東縣政府了解那包含因為這個補助的部分不是只有交通部也有一大部分是國土署那我們會協同國土署一起來跟屏東縣政府"},{"start":599.543,"end":616.458,"text":"目前我們掌握到是我們還有五個地方,包含潮州四個地方、東港一個地方,那這裡都是一個交通流量非常大的一個地方,是不是我們針對這部分來積極來協助一下我們?我們會跟內政部來配合,然後跟國土署來配合積極協助屏東縣政府,沒有問題。"},{"start":617.299,"end":631.191,"text":"最後一個我想墾丁的發展還有大鵬灣的觀光發展也是我們這個屏東縣的一個很重要的一個觀光的一個產業那我想先請教一下部長大鵬灣的這個招標的計畫目前的進度為何"},{"start":634.874,"end":653.266,"text":"當然我們積極在辦理整個大鵬灣的觀光對於整體的屏東來說實在非常重要所以我們希望在114年也就是明年的1月能夠評選出最優的申請人那我們希望在明年的2到5月之間用促參招商的這個議約跟簽約的部分我們來盡量讓他來完成"},{"start":654.71,"end":683.308,"text":"那另外針對肯定國家公園的問題那我也感謝我們內政部董政次這個禮拜有召集了我們相關的部會來協調但是我覺得開市會一定不會解決肯定的問題那後續包含我們的公路局也好觀光署也好還有相關的部會我們希望一起來共同努力肯定不能只是被污名化我們要讓肯定有更多一個新的亮點更多一個新的風貌然後呈現在國人的眼前那請我們相關的部會大家一起來努力謝謝"},{"start":684.69,"end":685.413,"text":"謝謝委員我們一起努力"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:39:58 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現在就像右邊這樣子啦那重點是我要請教啦"},{"start":107.401,"end":119.536,"text":"部長你要督促一下台鐵啦台南火車站整修啦什麼時候可以完工啦你知道這個火車站啦預計完工就是2021年後來延曆年說2022年1月"},{"start":122.563,"end":144.75,"text":"結果呢,2022年的2月就被落令停工,為什麼?因為他破壞古蹟啦。就建,建,營造商跟建築師,我不知道發生什麼事啦。就是說,把古蹟給弄壞了。停工啦,停工到現在已經兩年半了。我不知道什麼時候可以完工了。他跟委員報告,來。"},{"start":145.95,"end":171.992,"text":"跟委員報告臺南400年是一個非常臺灣很重要的一個里程碑所以一個都市裡面尤其在最近這100年來講的話火車站會是最關鍵的一個設施所以這個400年裡面最重要的這100年的火車站的設施必然要快速來完成尤其是古蹟的這個修護我看這個上面寫委員所提供的上面寫說修壞了這是非常的不應該那細節我是不是請那個臺鐵"},{"start":172.853,"end":201.39,"text":"他已經停工兩年半了來杜董事長跟委員報告還是感謝委員你什麼時候可以動工那個現在的我講進度了現在的進度是因為先前我們招標要來持續修復工程這件事情沒有人來投標留標了那我們戲就他的原因是因為廠商不肯來是因為沒有辦法釐清楚說到底這裡面有多少你告訴我你的問題你解決了沒有"},{"start":202.591,"end":230.322,"text":"有阿現在齁現在這個主要的問題阿你老公當時的完工啦台南台南市政府的文資局齁他現在同意齁來幫我們代辦調查阿那個代辦協議書已經好了所以他台南市政府所以什麼時候可以完工你也沒跑過啦這個完工照我的估算齁那什麼時候可以重新動工啦重新動工要到完成整個程序的話要到115年的年終"},{"start":233.328,"end":235.09,"text":"這個火車站整修只剩10%"},{"start":252.432,"end":274.864,"text":"那這十發就開始停工,停工兩年半,現在照杜董事長的解釋還要再等兩年才能動工,那動工不知道要做多久才可以完工,這台南會加薪嗎?報告員,這個你也積極在關心,那這個部分工程會跟交通部我們會把他列管,列管之後我們每一個月。你沒有辦法加快速度嗎?"},{"start":275.464,"end":301.491,"text":"我們每一個月都來做檢討我們來協助台鐵公司來加快為了保留台南這個舊火車站整個鐵路地下化工程做了一個很重大的就當時工程設計就是以要保留這個火車站這個是1900年日本人開始蓋的比台北市火車站還早一年為了把它保留結果呢你為了把它整修搞成這樣子所以台鐵的這個"},{"start":305.888,"end":322.575,"text":"速度確實要加快我們到115年才要開始動工那也太久了已經圍滿久了對於台南的一些小朋友來講他的記憶可能火車站就是有圍籬的狀態這是不好的那你至少要現在把它弄得好看一點"},{"start":324.168,"end":348.884,"text":"進出要安全不要像旅客在工地裡面進進出出這個部分我們現在也有在做我們有配合台南設計展我們大概在10月中旬第二階段可以完成所以這個地方就有看出台北辦事情所以難怪"},{"start":351.26,"end":369.614,"text":"董事長、副董事長,難怪你加個薪水,大家就賣了難怪你要自己技功,大家都罵了因為你也稍微有一點政治敏感度好不好你台鐵現在搞這樣子,你怎麼好意思加薪啊"},{"start":370.914,"end":397.025,"text":"報告委員 這個是 這個薪資他們是由這個國營事業的董總 也就是主持人他的薪資標準下去評估我知道了 這時間點不到對吧第一個啦 台鐵員工的薪資本來就偏低啦我舉雙鐵來做個比較啦高鐵的中位數啦 薪資中位數啦非儲管的薪資中位數是99萬"},{"start":398.868,"end":427.397,"text":"台鐵才68萬,薪水差30萬,年薪差了30萬再來,台鐵缺人,為什麼缺人?沒人要去啦你知道台鐵有招考部長你知道有好幾個項目是報考的人比需要應徵的人還少那幾乎可以全部報名就入局了,你知道嗎?"},{"start":428.953,"end":444.037,"text":"而且海鐵目前的人力缺口多少?兩千多個?董事長你說明一下好不好?其實並沒有兩千多個跟委員報告我們今年度還要在第二次招募我們的招募含100個司機員是722人"},{"start":456.031,"end":466.318,"text":"會來嗎?確定嗎?來,我再給你看台鐵,你看它的缺額公務、機務、電務缺額都有兩位數缺額都10%以上然後台鐵有1055個人公事化以後有超過1000個1055個人選擇領優退就離開了,不願意繼續待"},{"start":483.7,"end":490.864,"text":"然後,台鐵的今年也預計有多少人要離職?今年預計也有1288個人要離職這是媒體公布的資料"},{"start":504.485,"end":528.11,"text":"所以你去年公司化走了1055人今年還要再離開1288個人兩年啊 台北就走了2300多個人你今年啊 董事長都說要考 台北每年都考啦台北沒有一年不考啊 都沒人來啦那你 甚至還有零入局的所謂零入局就是零報到啦"},{"start":529.738,"end":538.15,"text":"有錄取喔有通知你錄取喔恭喜你喔結果報導沒人來啦尤其在一個比較像東部那個地方啦"},{"start":539.229,"end":565.205,"text":"那你怎麼辦所以我們這一次第二次招募的話我們針對東部跟技術的話我們會再來想辦法再來加強這不是我不會跟你說的啦你再看一下報員您這個資料齁這是2024年底統計那個齁這要容我回去再統計一下因為那個總計188我引用媒體的報導啦週刊的報導啦週刊報導7月就報導了你也不澄清你現在說我講的不對蛤"},{"start":568.899,"end":574.086,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":585.939,"end":609.807,"text":"你看他跟郵政公司比一下郵政公司人流不掉啊以前覺得最辛苦的是港務公司台鐵比港務公司還嚴重啊台鐵今年上半年啊光目前離職就三百個人啊另外啊台鐵去年離職四百個人就是說他入曲然後他受不了又離開了這個我是覺得喔"},{"start":615.348,"end":641.116,"text":"為什麼多年來這個是很長久的問題台鐵沒有辦法留住人才報告委員這兩方面我跟台鐵公司也在做商量跟討論兩方面要來處理一方面是公司的這個職場的文化那二方面其實是薪資的部分尤其是從業人員的薪資怎麼拉高怎麼會來努力因為新部長來我是讓你知道有這個狀況我希望部長要稍微督促一下另外"},{"start":642.23,"end":659.836,"text":"台鐵對旅客的服務我們來看一下你不用說跟高鐵比你跟捷運比台鐵現在花了3500萬台鐵財富已經不好了花了3500萬要來更新月台的資訊看板你看一下左邊月台顯示器你看它的顏色你看它的字體"},{"start":666.36,"end":691.555,"text":"他這個一更新啦花那麼多錢啦旅客一邊罵聲啦然後很多民眾啦提出的批評我給部長參考一下啦他說這個字體啦都看不清楚啦你看一般都會用黑體字啦這對年長者比較友善因為那個字比較容易辨識嘛你要注意看台題用這種字體還有他使用的顏色"},{"start":696.038,"end":722.023,"text":"保證你眼花撩亂還有許多搭乘者他習慣他是先看車種比如舉光號、志強號什麼號那你現在把大家習慣的用法改掉了你最前面列的是班次我請教很少人搭車會計班次的對不對部長那你回台中你坐高鐵都坐哪一個班次"},{"start":723.042,"end":723.783,"text":"他中文是看5秒英文停10秒"},{"start":753.035,"end":777.437,"text":"是到底看中文的多還是看英文的我發現很多旅客提供意見非常正確啊你開三千五百萬你還做到什麼報告委員這個我們會來改善好不好我們會來改善時間的關係啦我們希望台鐵已經公式化了那應該像一個公式化該有的效率和能力好不好好謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝董事長謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:26:40 - 11:39:40","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154894","gazette":{"lineno":629,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（11時26分）感謝主席，本席邀請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：有請陳部長。"],["林委員俊憲：臺鐵的杜董事長。"],["主席：請杜董事長。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，我可以給你看個照片，這是我們臺南火車站的照片。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：你看一下我們臺南火車站……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：這火車站是我們臺南市的門戶，現在很像一個工地，左邊那張照片有圍綠色籬笆，那個很難看喔！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：右邊是改善後，改善後還是一個工地，比較好看一點的工地啦！那是因為去年11月，本席辦了一個會勘，當時杜董事長也有去，交通部的胡湘麟次長今天不在喔？他也有去，是他帶隊的！我們要求，因為今年是臺南建城400年，臺灣燈會也在臺南，臺南辦很多的活動，很多觀光客會來，把一個火車站搞成像工地，就像你現在看到有圍綠色鐵皮的那個，旅客進出真的是個大笑話。後來就改成右邊那樣。他們有承諾要改啦！然後還說要配合臺灣燈會、臺南建城400年，火車站要用一些燈光裝飾、光雕，後來全部跳票、胡說八道，根本也沒有啦！現在就像右邊這樣子。重點是我要請教部長，你要督促一下臺鐵……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：臺南火車站的整修什麼時候可以完工？你知道這個火車站預計完工日是2021年，後來延1年為2022年1月，結果2022年2月就被勒令停工，為什麼？因為他們破壞古蹟，營造商跟建築師不知道發生什麼事情，他們把古蹟給弄壞了，停工到現在已經兩年半，我不知道什麼時候可以完工。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告……"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，臺南400年是臺灣很重要的一個里程碑，所以一個都市裡面，尤其在最近這100年來講，火車站會是最關鍵的一個設施……"],["林委員俊憲：對啊！"],["陳部長世凱：所以這個400年裡面最重要的是這100年的火車站設施，必然要快速完成，尤其是古蹟的修護，我看委員所提供的資料上面寫「修壞了」，這非常的不應該，細節我是不是請臺鐵……"],["林委員俊憲：已經停工兩年半了。來，杜董事長。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，還是感謝委員……"],["林委員俊憲：你什麼時候可以動工？"],["杜董事長微：我講現在的進度，因為先前我們招標要持續修復工程這件事情，沒有人來投標，所以流標了，我們細究原因，廠商不肯來是因為沒有辦法釐清楚到底這裡面有多少古蹟。"],["林委員俊憲：你告訴我，你的問題解決了沒有？"],["杜董事長微：有，現在這個主要的問題……"],["林委員俊憲：你跟我說什麼時候會完工啦！"],["杜董事長微：臺南市政府文資局現在同意幫我們代辦調查，代辦協議書已經好了，所以臺南市政府……"],["林委員俊憲：所以什麼時候可以完工，你也沒把握？"],["杜董事長微：這個完工，照我的估算……"],["林委員俊憲：那什麼時候可以重新動工？這樣問比較快。"],["杜董事長微：重新動工要到……完成整個程序的話，要到115年的年中。"],["林委員俊憲：重新動工喔？"],["杜董事長微：重新動工。"],["林委員俊憲：115年（2026年）年中，所以還要再等兩年？"],["杜董事長微：115年的年中，對。"],["林委員俊憲：所以這樣的工地還要再持續兩年。部長，這個火車站整修只剩10%……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：剩10%就開始停工，停工兩年半，現在照杜董事長的解釋，還要再等兩年才能動工，動工也不知道要做多久才可以完工，這是臺南火車站……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，你也積極的關心，工程會跟交通部會把它列管……"],["林委員俊憲：沒有辦法加快速度嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們每一個月都來檢討，協助臺鐵公司加快……"],["林委員俊憲：為了保留臺南這個舊火車站，整個鐵路地下化工程做了一個很重大的……當時工程設計就是要保留這個火車站，這是1900年日本人開始蓋的，比臺北市的火車站還早1年，為了把它保留，結果呢？又為了整修把它搞成這樣子，所以臺鐵的辦事效率……"],["陳部長世凱：速度確實要加快，到115年才要開始動工也太久了，已經圍滿久了，對臺南的一些小朋友來講，他的記憶可能火車站就是有圍籬的狀態，這是不好的。"],["林委員俊憲：你至少現在要把它弄得好看一點，進出要安全，不要讓旅客像是在工地裡面進進出出。"],["杜董事長微：是，這個部分我們現在也有在做。"],["林委員俊憲：有在做嗎？你有去看嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有，我們有配合臺南設計展，大概在10月中旬第二階段可以完成。"],["林委員俊憲：所以這個地方就可以看出臺鐵是如何辦事情的，杜董事長，難怪你加個薪水，大家都在罵；你還自己記功，大家都在罵，你也稍微有一點政治敏感度，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：是！"],["林委員俊憲：臺鐵現在搞成這樣子，你怎麼好意思加薪啊？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，薪資的部分是由國營事業的董總，也就是主持人，以他的薪給標準下去評估的，並不是加薪！"],["林委員俊憲：我知道啦！但這個時間點不大對吧？第一個，臺鐵員工的薪資本來就偏低，我以雙鐵來做個比較，高鐵非主管的薪資中位數是99萬，臺鐵才68萬，年薪差了30萬。再來，臺鐵缺人，為什麼缺人？沒人要去啊！臺鐵是有招考，部長你知道嗎？有好幾個項目報考的人比需要來應徵的人還少，幾乎報名就是錄取了，你知道嗎？而且臺鐵目前的人力缺口有兩千多個，董事長說明一下，好不好？"],["杜董事長微：其實並沒有兩千多個，跟委員報告，我們今年……"],["林委員俊憲：你自己說啦！要不然你們缺多少人？"],["杜董事長微：我們今年度還要再辦第二次招募，我們的招募包含100個司機員，是有722人。"],["林委員俊憲：會來嗎？"],["杜董事長微：會。"],["林委員俊憲：確定嗎？"],["杜董事長微：會。"],["林委員俊憲：來，我再給你看臺鐵的缺額，工務、機務、電務，缺額都是兩位數，缺額都10%以上，然後臺鐵公司化以後，有超過1,055人選擇領優退就離開了，不願意繼續待下去。","董事長，臺鐵今年預計有多少人要離職？今年預計有1,288人要離職，這是媒體公布的資料，所以你去年公司化走了1,055人，今年還要再離開1,288人，兩年下來臺鐵就走了2,300人。董事長都說了今年要招考，臺鐵每年都招考，沒有一年不招考，但都沒人來啦！甚至還有「零入局」的，所謂零入局就是零報到，有錄取喔！有通知你錄取喔！恭喜你喔！結果報到時卻沒人來，尤其像是在比較東部等等的地方，那你要怎麼辦？"],["杜董事長微：所以這次的第二次招募，針對東部跟技術的部分，我們會再來想辦法加強。"],["林委員俊憲：這不是胡亂跟你說的啦！你再看一下！"],["杜董事長微：報告委員，您這個資料是2024年底統計那個，這要容我回去再統計一下，因為那個總計的1,288……"],["林委員俊憲：我是引用媒體、週刊的報導，週刊7月就報導了，你也不澄清，結果你現在說我講得不對！"],["杜董事長微：這個我下去以後馬上……"],["林委員俊憲：7月媒體就披露了，你今年有1,200多人要離職。","再來，同樣是交通部的國營事業，請部長參考一下。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：我們臺鐵的離職率是最高的，跟郵政公司比一下，郵政公司的人是留得住的；以前覺得最辛苦的是港務公司，結果臺鐵比港務公司還嚴重。臺鐵今年上半年光離職的就有300人；另外，臺鐵去年離職400人，就是他錄取了，然後受不了又離開了，我是覺得，這是很長久的問題，為什麼多年來臺鐵都沒有辦法留住人才？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我跟臺鐵公司也在商量跟討論，這分兩方面來處理，一方面是公司的職場文化，二方面其實是薪資的部分，尤其是從業人員的薪資怎麼拉高，這個我們會來努力。"],["林委員俊憲：因為新部長剛來，我只是讓你知道有這個狀況。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：我希望部長要稍微督促一下。","另外是臺鐵對旅客的服務，我們來看一下，先不跟高鐵比較，來看看跟捷運的比較，臺鐵現在花了3,500萬，即臺鐵財務已經不好了，卻花了3,500萬來更新月臺的資訊看板，你看一下左邊的月臺顯示器，你看它的顏色、它的字體，這個更新花了那麼多錢，但旅客一片罵聲，有很多民眾提出批評，在此我給部長參考一下。","首先，他說字體看不清楚，一般都會用黑體字，這對年長者比較友善，也比較容易辨識，結果你看臺鐵用的是這種字體；還有它使用的顏色，保證你眼花撩亂；還有，許多搭乘者的習慣是先看車種，比如莒光號、自強號等等，你現在把大家習慣的用法改掉了，最前面列的是班次，很少人搭車會記班次的，對不對？部長回臺中若搭高鐵，都是搭哪一個班次？"],["陳部長世凱：我真的不知道！"],["林委員俊憲：哪有人在記班次的！班次應該列在最後面，一般人的習慣是先看班車時間，還有他的車種，有的人會挑車種，因為關係到票價，價格會不一樣，所以你把班次寫在最前面要幹嘛？除了顏色以外、字體以外，還有訊息轉換的速度，中文是停5秒，英文停10秒，到底看中文的人多，還是看英文的人多？我發現很多旅客提供的意見都非常正確，你花了3,500萬，結果還做到被罵！"],["杜董事長微：報告委員，這個我們會來改善。"],["林委員俊憲：臺鐵已經公司化了，我希望臺鐵能有公司化該有的效率和能力，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長，謝謝董事長。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。接下來有請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","黃國昌","盧縣一","林月琴","洪申翰","牛煦庭","黃健豪","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","徐欣瑩","林國成","劉建國","傅崐萁"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-26"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善\n成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通\n部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情\n況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137601_00018"}}},{"date":"2024-09-26","影片長度":"00:12:02","end_time":"2024-09-26T11:26:27+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154893","委員名稱":"陳素月","duration":722,"start_time":"2024-09-26T11:14:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/82d3b85b2355f090fa432b11bb127b48b56164d929a988cd19c15283588c52b5bb7f1b8e8d3d49e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7097187500000004,"end":6.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.83159375,"end":7.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.78346875,"end":40.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.34284375,"end":29.359718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.37659375,"end":29.410343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.460968750000003,"end":29.579093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.986593750000004,"end":44.142218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.260343750000004,"end":89.11409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.33346875000001,"end":91.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.03346875000001,"end":123.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.45471875000001,"end":129.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.42846875,"end":132.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.90471875,"end":146.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.67471875,"end":202.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.78784375,"end":152.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.10284375,"end":161.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.29471875000002,"end":175.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.48784375000002,"end":181.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.08784375000002,"end":213.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.46596875,"end":220.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.96284375000002,"end":244.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.43159375000002,"end":277.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.08909375000002,"end":249.39284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.16471875,"end":283.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.41284375000004,"end":314.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.22409375,"end":303.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.53034375000004,"end":349.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.71471875000003,"end":367.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.68659375000004,"end":368.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.27284375000005,"end":377.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.18409375000005,"end":370.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.77784375000005,"end":383.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.83596875,"end":401.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.07971875000004,"end":390.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.31971875000005,"end":393.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.57284375,"end":393.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.29721875,"end":453.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.59596875000005,"end":407.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.19221875000005,"end":468.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.63471875000005,"end":457.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.98721875,"end":517.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.72846875000005,"end":477.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.81721875000005,"end":504.10409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.63784375,"end":533.8547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.11659375,"end":532.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.22596875,"end":543.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.50846875,"end":535.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.8628437500001,"end":535.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.20346875,"end":574.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.9309687500001,"end":559.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.4097187500001,"end":591.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.4965937500001,"end":585.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.1672187500001,"end":586.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.2509687500001,"end":595.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.02284375,"end":592.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.27596875,"end":592.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.71471875,"end":593.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","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請主席邀請陳部長有請陳部長"},{"start":18.033,"end":33.552,"text":"部長早安我們知道就是說在前年底因為這個CNN媒體的一個報導說我們台灣的這個交通環境對行人很不友善那並形容台灣是這個行人地獄所以這樣子的"},{"start":36.754,"end":60.344,"text":"對整個我們國家的形象也是一個重創那也引起國人非常大的一個重視跟議論所以我們在中央我們看到行政院也非常的積極針對這部分有做出了一些回應我們看到在去年2023年的5月跟8月行政院就分別通過行人優先交通政策綱領還有行人交通安全政策綱領"},{"start":61.264,"end":88.789,"text":"那在今年的四月也三讀通過的行人交通安全設施條例那我們今年這個行政院也編列了四年四百億要來提升這個有序提升人行安全計畫所以我們這樣子就是說希望透過中央與地方政府的一個合作來改善我們整個行人的安全跟交通的一個環境那也之前我們交通部也有宣誓就是說希望從工程"},{"start":89.429,"end":107.313,"text":"兼理教育跟執法四個面向來同時來落實來改善我們的交通環境那舊工程的部分我們來看因為今天應該也很多委員都有關心就是就目前我們交通部所掌握的就是全台799處的路口改善"},{"start":110.234,"end":131.29,"text":"那在一到八月間的這個改善的一個成果我們看到這樣子一個統計數字就是以六都來看的話臺中的這個執行率是最低的就是以建樹跟他預期改善的數字來做一個計算的話他的比例是只有6.3%那如果以全國非六都來看"},{"start":131.77,"end":145.54,"text":"甚至還有未改善一件都沒有的所以在這邊想先請教一下部長對於這些危險路口到底是我們的經費沒有到位還是說他們的執行率真的有問題"},{"start":146.944,"end":174.73,"text":"報告委員這些路口其實就是中央跟地方一起選定的799處我們希望能夠快速來進行中央也會如果年底之前完成的話都會做全額的補助跟補貼所以錢的部分是沒有問題不過實際的執行面上面的話大部分是由地方政府來完成以交通部來說的話我們在公路系統也就是省道系統公路的部分是交通部來負責那2000處的部分我們目前的進度是超前的"},{"start":175.37,"end":202.643,"text":"那但是對於地方這個799處的改善的部分應該絕大多數是地方政府那以彰化來說確實數字上比較低那這12件裡面其中有一件是跟交通部有關的那11件是跟國土署有關的那交通部有關的這一件已經完成了那另外還有11件那已經完成了一件是國土署的但還有10件是國土署要補助給彰化縣政府所以這個部分可能彰化縣政府要積極努力"},{"start":203.183,"end":219.8,"text":"是那就是說針對這樣子的目前的一個進度啊我們就是能夠清楚看出來他們的這個執行的比例啊所以對這樣子執行率偏低的狀況我們交通部是不是應該要更積極的去輔導或者協助督促他們能夠盡快的做一個改善"},{"start":220.82,"end":241.632,"text":"這個部分我們每個月像您的這個數據我們每個月都會公告在網路上那其實地方的民意代表也非常關注這個議題所以他們看到這個資訊自然會去跟地方政府去要求跟督促那另外就是說這個部分剩下的彰化剩下的那10件應該改善的路口是跟國土署比較相關那國土署也會應該會盡量協助地方"},{"start":245.094,"end":266.749,"text":"那就是我們交通部宣示就是要從四個面向來改善這個跟提升這個交通安全環境跟這個行人的一個安全可是很遺憾的就是說我們看到這個統計數字今年1到6月我們根據交通部的統計就是整體的交通事故的死亡人數是比去年同期有減少"},{"start":267.529,"end":293.608,"text":"一百四十一人是下降了9%那機車高齡、酒駕及兒少的死亡都有減少可是行人事故的死亡率就是183人反而是比去年同期增加了10人就是這個比例增加了5.8%所以這樣子真的是讓我們覺得非常的遺憾那當然就是說其中我們依據交通部的一個分析這個噪音有就是其中包括就是車輛沒有依規定來"},{"start":295.449,"end":313.4,"text":"暫停這個禮讓行人的部分那當然有行人沒有依標誌或標線來穿越道路這樣子的一個狀況可是就是說車輛位依規定暫停的比例是比較高的所以這部分應該還是要再去加強這個是不是透過監理或教育的一個手段"},{"start":314.181,"end":329.101,"text":"來加強監理跟教育的手段我們都會加強那教育的部分我剛有報告過就是說我們在明年度也就是114年的這個預算裡面我們增加了5000多萬的這個宣導的經費這個部分我們會跟地方政府一起來合作做宣導的部分"},{"start":329.722,"end":349.234,"text":"至於監理面我也在跟部裡面的同仁在討論就是未來針對考照的部分的加強教育跟安全的概念那個考照不要讓他太簡單就考過這個部分其實我們有些數據看起來是會有效的所以監理面的部分、考照面的部分我們都會來加強努力"},{"start":349.855,"end":367.195,"text":"是 好 那相信部長也有注意到那很多人都很關心就是在前幾天就發生了這個台中的這個公車因為轉彎又去撞擊了這個就是穿越馬路的這個東海大學的女學生然後造成其中一個女學生"},{"start":367.415,"end":379.16,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":393.706,"end":401.167,"text":"所以針對這樣子的一個重大事故我們交通部有沒有去主動了解到底原因是出在哪裡"},{"start":402.552,"end":426.222,"text":"其實這個事故看起來應該是因為這個司機應該要停等在左轉或右轉的時候應該要停等但他沒有依照我們的規定來停等他就直接就開過去了那其實我們交通部都有嚴格要求第一我們的客運或者是貨運的大車在要過馬路的時候要左轉或右轉第一你必須要停等第二甚至我們有要求要指叉確認"},{"start":427.162,"end":452.502,"text":"也就是左看右看前看只差確認要做那明顯的看起來是他們並沒有落實到這一點那這個部分當然我們有罰則有罰則但是地方落實的狀況這個部分如果可以再更落實一點我相信這些憾事都能夠排除掉都能夠避免掉所以這個部分我們會再積極要求各個地方政府在針對我們的規定的部分該怎麼樣落實我們會盡量協助盡量跟他們溝通"},{"start":453.294,"end":475.471,"text":"是,剛剛部長你講的就是說他沒有停等嘛可是我們去看一下瞭解一下就是其中有一件這個車禍事故就是在2022年這個伊拉克籍的男子他一家山口就是過馬路的時候被撞擊那這個就是伊拉克籍這個丈夫他在接受訪問的時候他有講到說這個司機速度很快"},{"start":476.592,"end":495.663,"text":"就是車速過快那包括這一次的這個東海大學的女學生的事故之後我們也發現網路上也有網友在嘲諷說這個台中市政府不用辦賽車賽了因為在整個市區上這個就是這個公車就是開快車等於就是在像在賽車一樣了"},{"start":497.464,"end":520.432,"text":"所以造成這樣子的原因我想這個應該也是我們要去了解的那我有去了解了一下我不曉得這正不正確可是我也希望我們交通部是不是也要去主動了解一下就是也有人反映說因為台中市政府實施的這個交通新制就是說這個班車客運如果誤點托班就是要罰錢開罰"},{"start":522.273,"end":543,"text":"所以是不是這樣子也導致了這個司機在行駛在載客的時候他有一個心理的壓力他為了怕霧點他就要開快車那開快車就等於造成了相對的一個危險這個就是互為因果的一個關係所以這個部分我們交通部是不是可以去做一個瞭解"},{"start":543.42,"end":558.375,"text":"就我所知因為我以前擔任台中市的議員就我所知很像台中市是有類似托班會做開罰的動作那這個部分如果大家覺得說會不會因為這個因素造成很多的公車的司機怕被罰"},{"start":559.236,"end":583.097,"text":"所以開的特別快,這個部分我們會主動來跟台中市政府來溝通跟協調那做仔細的研究啦,說這個準點率跟這個行車的安全,中間該怎麼抓平衡點這個我們再主動積極去找台中市政府來溝通因為其實在一般就是市民的一個印象裡面就是台中市的共車開很快所以應該就是要先去了解一下為什麼他們會開這麼快"},{"start":586.983,"end":595.179,"text":"應該從司機去做一個訪問或訪查,應該就可以得出一個結果。好,我們到地方去了解一下之後,再協助台中市政府來做更好的改善。"},{"start":596.091,"end":617.577,"text":"對,所以我覺得說如果是因為這樣子的一個要求跟制度啊就跟我們交通部要宣示的這個監理跟教育的這樣子的一個面向就相違背了因為我們本來是希望透過教育讓不管是駕駛或者是行人都能夠遵守這個交通安全結果反而在這樣子的一個規定如果說造成司機有一個壓力的話"},{"start":618.137,"end":636.573,"text":"我想就是跟我們的政策就是利益有相違背了再來就是我們在這個面向裡面當然執法應該是最後的一個手段我們也看到最近我們中央政府也補助地方廣設這個就是"},{"start":638.815,"end":639.816,"text":"因為當然我們的利益是希望能夠遏止這個違規希望大家守法"},{"start":664.312,"end":671.694,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":686.098,"end":697.072,"text":"這部分我們會跟這個內政部來做協調因為這個部分是內政部警政署他們在負責的那我們會來跟他們做協調說怎麼樣落實會讓民眾達到一個最好的平衡那也達到安全的效果"},{"start":697.997,"end":700.2,"text":"主席主席主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:14:25 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11:26:27","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154893","gazette":{"lineno":584,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時14分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳部長。"],["主席：好，有請陳部長。"],["陳委員素月：部長早安。我們知道在前年底，因為CNN媒體的一個報導說我們臺灣的交通環境對行人很不友善，並形容臺灣是「行人地獄」，這樣子的一個標籤對整個國家的形象是重創，也引起國人非常大的重視跟議論。所以在中央，我們看到行政院也非常的積極，針對這部分有做出一些回應，在去（2023）年的5月跟8月行政院就分別通過「行人優先交通安全行動綱領」，還有「行人交通安全政策綱領」，在今年4月也三讀通過了行人交通安全設施條例，今年行政院也編列了4年400億，要來啟動永續提升人行安全計畫，我們就是希望透過中央與地方政府的合作來改善整個行人的安全跟交通環境。之前我們交通部也有宣示，希望從工程、監理、教育跟執法四個面向同時落實，改善我們的交通環境。","就工程的部分我們來看，因為今天應該都有很多委員關心，目前交通部所掌握全臺799處危險路口的改善，在1到8月間改善的成果，我們看到這樣的統計數字，以六都來看的話，臺中的執行率是最低的，以件數跟它預期改善的數字來計算的話，它的比例只有6.3%；如果以全國非六都來看，甚至還有未改善的，1件都沒有。所以想先請教一下部長，對於這些危險路口，到底是我們的經費沒有到位呢？還是說他們的執行率真的有問題？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這些路口其實就是中央跟地方一起選定的799處，我們希望能夠快速來進行，如果年底之前完成的話，中央也都會做全額的補助跟補貼，所以錢的部分沒有問題。不過實際的執行面上大部分是由地方政府來完成，以交通部來說，我們在公路系統也就是省道系統，公路的部分是交通部來負責，那2,000處我們目前的進度是超前的。但是對於這799處改善的部分，應該絕大多數是地方政府，那以彰化來說，確實數字上比較低。"],["陳委員素月：對。"],["陳部長世凱：這12件裡面，其中有1件是跟交通部有關的；11件是跟國土署有關的，而交通部有關的這1件已經完成了；另外還有11件，1件已經完成的是國土署的，但還有10件是國土署要補助給彰化縣政府，所以這個部分可能彰化縣政府要積極努力。"],["陳委員素月：是，針對目前這樣子的進度，我們能夠清楚看出來他們執行的比例，對於執行率偏低的狀況，我們交通部是不是應該要更積極地去輔導或者協助，督促他們能夠儘快地改善。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分像您這個數據，我們每個月都會公告在網路上，其實地方的民意代表也非常關注這個議題，所以他們看到這個資訊自然會跟地方政府去要求跟督促。另外，彰化剩下那10件應該改善的路口是跟國土署比較相關，國土署應該會儘量協助地方啦！"],["陳委員素月：是，我們交通部宣示要從四個面向來改善跟提升交通安全環境跟行人的安全，可是很遺憾的，我們看到這個統計數字，今年1到6月根據交通部的統計，整體交通事故的死亡人數比去年同期減少141人，下降了9%；機車、高齡、酒駕及兒少的死亡都有減少；可是行人事故的死亡率183人，反而比去年同期增加了10人，比例增加了5.8%，這樣子真的是讓我們覺得非常的遺憾啦！當然我們依據交通部的一個分析，其中肇因包括車輛沒有依規定暫停禮讓行人，當然也有行人沒有依標誌或標線穿越道路這樣子的狀況……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：可是車輛未依規定暫停的比例是比較高的，所以這個部分應該還是要再去加強，是不是透過監理或教育的手段來加強？"],["陳部長世凱：監理跟教育的手段我們都會加強啦！教育的部分我剛剛有報告過，我們在明年度也就是114年的預算裡面，我們增加了五千多萬宣導的經費，這個部分我們會跟地方政府一起合作來宣導。至於監理面，我也在跟部裡面的同仁討論啦，未來針對考照部分加強教育跟安全的概念，讓考照不要讓它太簡單就考過，這個部分其實我們有些數據看起來會是有效的，所以監理面的部分、考照面的部分，我們都會來加強努力。"],["陳委員素月：是，好，相信部長也有注意到，很多人也都很關心，前幾天發生了臺中的公車因為轉彎又去撞擊了穿越馬路的東海大學女學生，然後造成其中一個女學生不幸傷重往生了嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：也再度引起社會高度的關注，可是我們去看一下、去搜尋一下資料，臺中公車近3年來已經發生了3件很嚴重的事故，所以比例也是非常的高啦，而且都是造成有行人傷亡的重大事故啦！針對這樣子的一個重大事故，我們交通部有沒有主動去瞭解到底原因是出在哪裡？"],["陳部長世凱：其實這個事故看起來是司機應該在左轉或右轉的時候停等，但他沒有依照我們的規定停等就直接開過去了。其實交通部都有嚴格要求我們的客運或者是貨運的大車，在過馬路要左轉或右轉的時候，第一，你必須要停等；第二，甚至我們有要求要指差確認，也就是左看、右看、前看，指差確認要做，而很明顯地看起來他們並沒有落實到這一點。這個部分當然我們有罰則，但是地方落實的狀況如果可以更落實一點，我相信這些憾事都能夠排除掉、都能夠避免掉。所以我們會再積極要求各個地方政府針對我們規定的部分，該怎麼樣落實，我們會儘量協助、儘量跟他們溝通。"],["陳委員素月：是，剛剛部長講的是他沒有停等……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：可是我們看了一下、瞭解一下，其中有一件車禍事故是在2022年，伊拉克籍男子一家三口在過馬路的時候被撞擊，伊拉克籍丈夫在接受訪問的時候有講到，這個司機速度很快、車速過快……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員素月：包括這次東海大學女學生的事故之後，我們發現網路上有網友嘲諷臺中市政府不用辦賽車賽了，因為整個市區的公車都開快車，像在賽車一樣，造成這樣的原因，我想這也應該是我們要去瞭解的。","我有去瞭解了一下，我不曉得這正不正確，可是我希望交通部是不是也要主動瞭解一下，有人反映，因為臺中市政府實施交通新制，客運班車如果誤點拖班要罰錢、開罰，這是不是導致司機行駛、載客的時候有心理壓力，他為了怕誤點就要開快車，開快車就等於造成了相對的危險……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：這就是互為因果的關係，交通部是不是可以去瞭解？"],["陳部長世凱：因為我以前擔任臺中市的議員，就我所知，臺中市好像有類似拖班會開罰的動作，如果大家覺得會因為這個因素造成很多的公車司機怕被罰，所以開得特別快，這部分我們會主動跟臺中市政府溝通跟協調，做仔細的研究，關於準點率跟行車安全中間該怎麼抓平衡點，我們再主動積極找臺中市政府溝通。"],["陳委員素月：對，其實在一般市民的印象裡面，臺中市的公車開很快，所以應該要先去瞭解一下，為什麼他們會開這麼快。"],["陳部長世凱：是、是、是。"],["陳委員素月：應該從司機去訪問或訪查就可以得出一個結果。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們到地方瞭解一下之後，再協助臺中市政府做更好的改善。"],["陳委員素月：對，我覺得這樣的要求及制度就跟交通部宣示的監理跟教育面向相違背了嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員素月：我們本來希望透過教育，不管是讓駕駛或者是行人都能夠遵守交通安全，結果這樣的規定反而造成司機有壓力的話，我想這跟我們的政策立意相違背了。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：再來，在這4個面向裡面，當然執法應該是最後的手段。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：我們也看到最近中央政府補助地方廣設科技執法。"],["陳部長世凱：科技執法。"],["陳委員素月：就是超速照相等等，可是這樣的政策實施之後，我希望交通部要做滾動式的檢討，因為我們在地方，民眾給我們的反應是政府在跟民眾搶錢。當然我們的立意是希望能夠遏止違規……"],["陳部長世凱：是，希望大家守法。"],["陳委員素月：要守法，可是目前我們看到審計部檢討了苗栗縣政府針對科技執法裝設之後的成果，有些路口裝設之後肇事率不減反增，這部分也希望交通部能夠適時的檢討。"],["陳部長世凱：這部分我會跟內政部來協調，因為這是內政部警政署在負責的，我們會跟他們協調，看怎麼樣落實會讓民眾達到最好的平衡，也達到安全的效果。"],["陳委員素月：好，我們每天出門就是面對行的環境，或者是交通的需求，部長剛上任，在這部分也辛苦了，也可能要多擔待一些，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員。","接下來有請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝然後再來齁其實我要談的上次也是主要的就是有關剛剛萬美玲外委員有提到桃園的國道客運是有一些很明顯的問題的"},{"start":153.132,"end":179.979,"text":"那我也知道公務總局有一些應對的方法針對短程的客運但是這一點來講的話我就必須在這邊跟公務總局講一句話你們的宣傳可能嚴重不足那不理因為如果說這個短程的國道客運寄費方式補貼已經有改善那為什麼萬委員會不知道為什麼那個邱若驊委員會不知道為什麼桃園的委員不知道這些事情"},{"start":181.946,"end":189.916,"text":"這個應該是主動你們去跟這些委員們說明而不是我今天問出來我因為我一直在追這個案子劉委員那邊也說劉委員有跟我講劉許廷劉委員跟我講說這邊可能補貼的不夠但是"},{"start":196.073,"end":215.009,"text":"這位不管怎麼樣你們這不管怎麼樣桃園跟基隆都是一樣有國道客運來台北上班可是因為短時間在尖峰時段人潮擁擠可是平常沒人做的狀況所以我知道你們有補貼機制但是你們有沒有去問過這些除了問過基隆的委員我本人之外你們有問過這些跟這些桃園的委員報告過嗎"},{"start":218.089,"end":237.455,"text":"跟委員報告,因為這一個就是國道客運的這一個運價的一個調整的話在今年的五月份那因為短途包括基隆跟桃園它的特性又特別不一樣所以就是說它在這個五月我們通過之後我們這個九月我們又有另外一個短途通勤的這一個"},{"start":238.075,"end":263.88,"text":"客運再調整那我想我會再跟監理所我會到跟當地的委員多那我會希望說局長跟部長這邊既然你們有做這些事情應該跟委員報告沒有錯應該讓當地的委員都知道因為你們如果跟委員們主動講委員們才會跟民眾講民意代表就是代表民意沒錯而我們是這整個城市的民意代表算是比較算是比較大中的那如果我們幫你們做宣傳"},{"start":264.82,"end":280.767,"text":"如果我不會針對只是說不好的事情我來做監督如果好的事情我覺得民意代表也會有一定程度的權限跟責任來去幫政府把好這個部分交通部應該要來加強可是我現在既然那個局長已經上來了我必須在這邊再提到說上次我提過兩個問題兩個議題"},{"start":283.288,"end":303.283,"text":"第一個議題就是有關基隆市因為基隆市的通勤人口是應該如果以比例來講是全台灣最高的那全台灣最高之外那我們現在目前來講如果說台鐵因為我知道等一下請台鐵杜董事長準備上台台鐵目前先不要講說目前基層的員工的抱怨有關有關薪資制度的問題但是目前來講台鐵誤點蠻嚴重的"},{"start":307.281,"end":331.466,"text":"尤其在基隆到台北早上上班的時候我已經跟國防市長已經合力要求加班但是目前狀況還是很嚴重而且我現在目前知道最新的消息是我本來預估的一萬兩千人的這個台鐵搭台鐵往返基隆風情上班跟上課現在已經銳減成為八千人左右也就是說這多出來四千人不是做國道刻印就是自己開車"},{"start":333.123,"end":354.605,"text":"所以我們很明顯的可以看到現在每天早上上班的時候基本上從6點半6點45分開始高速公路就會塞車那這一點來講的話其實台鐵如果台鐵你們加班次也好還是解決霧點的問題的時候其實對於整個基隆市的通勤是會絕對有幫助的好 謝謝杜董事長先講一下看有沒有加班的計畫"},{"start":355.97,"end":379.591,"text":"沒有 跟委員報告 那個我沒有注意到這個情形這八千人的這個通勤營量是往下掉 本來是一萬二現在往下掉到八千足足減了差不多將近百分之五十是 但是這個我們車上就是並沒有擁擠的情形所以說 這個應該跟加班董事長 沒有擁擠的情形就代表民眾對於台鐵失去信心啊"},{"start":381.205,"end":401.831,"text":"如果說像國道客運我想局長可以直接講每一個國道客運1815、1813、1813D每一個都是滿班如果說滿班的話如果台鐵如果位置很空的話那就代表什麼代表一般民眾不想坐台鐵因為他們不確定會不會到的聯環跟委員報告所以委員剛剛講的沒錯這個真的是需要檢討"},{"start":403.972,"end":420.544,"text":"加班不是唯一的選項我們現在是要把準點率把它拉出來讓我們的旅客能夠再回流到我們台鐵進行通勤通學的搭乘我是直接問什麼時候你們會有改善方案什麼時候我們可以看到成效"},{"start":421.684,"end":444.731,"text":"怎麼樣可以讓基隆的通勤族坐台鐵可以說一小時然後真的知道一小時從基隆火車站可以直接到台北火車站而且不會誤點到一小時半有沒有機會有什麼時候給我答案我想我們把整體的我們的改善的情形整理好以後就跟委員報告好嗎好"},{"start":445.491,"end":472.319,"text":"我這邊還是要跟局長因為現在鐵路的乘客量往下掉變成說大家都是自己開車或者坐國道客運所以我之前跟你提過的1815、157、918、1813D這三條酷限可能要加班次甚至你本來甚至你目前有補助的1573跟9026這五條路線都可能要加班次而9026的經營不善這點對我來講其實我一直在一直長期在關注著這點我希望局長這邊能夠"},{"start":473.639,"end":483.072,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":491.303,"end":509.216,"text":"但是尷尬的地方就是人口增長都是在中山區都是在西邊中山區那邊而西邊中山區那邊現在有一個大型的建案那邊有2500戶變成是說那邊的人如果全部讓這2500戶全部來台北上班全部都開車你就會有1200台以上的小客車"},{"start":511.377,"end":539.716,"text":"那這樣對於台北市的交通或整個高速公路上面的交通會有很大的衝擊所以這邊上次我有跟那個局長講請局長主動而且積極的去尋求可能性從中山區這邊可以直接到南港的國道客運或者是區間車這樣才能實質上的利用國道客運然後把我們的公共運我們的大眾運具的運載量往上提最重要的是讓高速公路不會那麼再塞車局長"},{"start":541.88,"end":558.774,"text":"委員所提的這個部分因為新興社區的這個將來衍生出來的這個客運的需求的話那包括就是說是不是要新闢路線或者是委員有路線要做一些調整或增搬的部分我想我們已經在跟這個包括客運業者跟我們的建議所已經在研議了是"},{"start":559.494,"end":583.218,"text":"什麼時候可以給我答案呢這個部分的話我想會盡快我在下週就跟這一個把我們的研議的方案跟委員報告為什麼我有這麼急的原因是那邊其實那邊的社區如果我們不早一點去做先前的準備的話我們那邊的社區人最後面就全部開車上去最後面現在不只在基隆市內交通會塞高速公路也會塞甚至到台北也會塞"},{"start":583.618,"end":588.862,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":605.333,"end":633.065,"text":"怎麼講?我也會很樂意說能夠的話來基隆做一次考察報告委員您不用邀請我或要求我因為您剛剛說的那個新興社區就在我岳母家的旁邊我太太帶小朋友要回娘家也是搭那邊的客運那你知道那邊的客運現在最高的地方是那個客運站在那個客運站在之前就載滿了啦所以來是沒有辦法載的那你知道如果部長知道這個狀況的話我們就請局長跟各個相關單位集結群我時常會去基隆再找委員"},{"start":634.106,"end":634.288,"text":"好,謝謝部長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:51:57 - 11:02:34","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154892","gazette":{"lineno":508,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（10時51分）有請陳部長。"],["主席：好，有請陳部長。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，抱歉，這個是時事題啦！您知道基隆市基金一路這邊的交流道目前正在淹水嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我沒有掌握到，不好意思。"],["林委員沛祥：請高公局局長上臺。"],["陳部長世凱：現在這個時刻嗎？"],["林委員沛祥：現在這個時間正在淹水，我想應該是東森新聞正在報，現在高速公路上面的交流道在淹水，基金一路上國道南下交流道已經驚見小河，不知道你有沒有掌握這個狀況？我剛剛在開會之前打電話給你，剛好你沒有接到，而且這個是高公局……這個交流道在我當議員的時候辦過3次會勘，針對這邊排水……"],["趙局長興華：報告委員，這個應該是在基金一路上面，不是在匝道上的。"],["林委員沛祥：沒有，匝道上也有。"],["趙局長興華：匝道上的部分是水流，不會到淹水的狀況。"],["林委員沛祥：已經淹了，你可以看那個新聞，你可以看到在交流道上面有淹水。我想說不管怎麼樣……"],["趙局長興華：因為這個部分沒有妨礙到通行，所以……"],["林委員沛祥：有，因為已經有車泡水了，所以我不知道我們今天在這邊辯論的結果是什麼……"],["趙局長興華：我們再確認一下。"],["林委員沛祥：我們現在趕快確認，然後趕快去解決問題。因為老實說這個問題我已經辦過兩次……當初當議員的時候已經辦過兩次會勘，但是後來是高公局來講比較……老實講，如果我今天不當立法委員，基隆也不會有人跟你說那邊的事情高公局需要負一些責任。"],["趙局長興華：我們再確認一下。"],["林委員沛祥：所以我在這邊就直接講，局長，當初你來找我的時候，我並不知道豪大雨會再度發生，那現在颱風要來了，基隆全區都有可能淹水，包括公路總局，基金一路目前也有淹水的狀況，所以針對這一點，我想未來等雨勢停了之後，我們需要辦一些會勘，我會邀請基隆市政府一起來聯合會勘，解決這次的問題，可以嗎？"],["趙局長興華：好，我們等一下馬上用CCTV先看。"],["林委員沛祥：現在新聞都在報，你要拿這個新聞一點都不難，好不好？因為我有點急……"],["陳部長世凱：委員如果有需要會勘，交通部一定配合，沒問題。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。","再來，其實我主要要談的也是有關剛剛萬美玲委員提到的，桃園的國道客運有一些很明顯的問題，我也知道公路總局有一些應對的方法，針對短程的客運，但是這一點來講的話，我就必須在這邊跟公路總局講一句話，你們的宣傳可能嚴重不足，那部裡……如果說這個短程的國道客運計費方式補貼已經有改善，為什麼萬委員會不知道？為什麼邱若華委員會不知道？為什麼桃園的委員不知道這些事情？這個應該是你們主動去跟這些委員們說明，而不是我今天問出來，因為我一直在追這個案子，牛煦庭委員也跟我說這邊可能補貼的不夠。但是不管怎麼樣，桃園跟基隆都是一樣有國道客運來臺北上班，因為短時間在尖峰時段人潮擁擠，可是平常是沒人坐的狀況。我知道你們有補貼機制，但是你們除了問過基隆的委員我本人之外，有跟這些桃園的委員報告過嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：是，跟委員報告，國道客運運價的調整在今年5月份，因為短途包括基隆跟桃園的特性又特別不一樣，所以在5月通過之後，9月我們又有另外一個短途通勤的客運在調整……"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝局長。"],["陳局長文瑞：我會再跟監理所和當地的委員……"],["林委員沛祥：因為我這次質詢的時間不夠多，我會希望局長跟部長這邊……既然你們有做這些事情……"],["陳部長世凱：應該跟委員報告沒有錯，要讓當地的委員都知道。"],["林委員沛祥：你們如果主動跟委員們講，委員們才會跟民眾講，民意代表就是代表民意。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯、沒錯。"],["林委員沛祥：而我們是這整個城市的民意代表，算是比較大宗的，如果我們幫你們宣傳……我不會只是針對不好的事情來監督；如果是好的事情，我覺得民意代表也會有一定程度的權限跟責任，幫政府把好的部分……"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯，這個部分交通部應該要來加強，跟委員報告。"],["林委員沛祥：現在既然局長已經上來了，我必須在這邊再提到上次我提過的兩個議題，第一個議題就是基隆市的通勤人口如果以比例來講應該是全臺灣最高的，全臺灣最高之外，目前來講，如果說臺鐵，因為我知道……等一下請臺鐵杜董事長準備上臺。先不要說基層員工抱怨有關薪資制度的問題，目前來講，臺鐵誤點蠻嚴重的，尤其在基隆到臺北端白天早上上班的時候，我跟國樑市長已經合力要求加班，但是目前狀況還是很嚴重。而且目前我知道最新的消息是，我本來預估1萬2,000人搭臺鐵往返基隆通勤上班跟上課，現在已經減成為8,000人左右，也就是說這多出來4,000人不是坐國道客運，就是自己開車。所以我們很明顯的可以看到現在每天早上上班的時候，基本上從6點半、6點45分開始，高速公路就會塞車，這一點來講的話，如果臺鐵加班次也好，還是解決誤點問題的時候，其實對於整個基隆市的通勤絕對是會有幫助的。謝謝杜董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：請杜董事長先講一下加班的計畫。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們有注意到這個情形，這8,000人的通勤……"],["林委員沛祥：是往下掉，本來是1萬2，現在往下掉到8,000，足足減了差不多將近50%。"],["杜董事長微：是，但是我們車上並沒有擁擠的情形，所以說這個應該跟加班……"],["林委員沛祥：董事長，沒有擁擠的情形就代表民眾對臺鐵失去信心啊！"],["杜董事長微：是，了解。"],["林委員沛祥：如果說像國道客運，我想局長可以直接講，每一個國道客運，1815、1813、1813D每一個都是滿班。"],["杜董事長微：是……"],["林委員沛祥：如果說滿班，臺鐵位子還很空的話，那就代表什麼？代表一般民眾不想坐臺鐵，因為他們不確定會不會到的了啊！"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，所以委員剛剛講的沒錯，我們現在……"],["林委員沛祥：這個真的需要檢討。"],["杜董事長微：加班不是唯一的選項，我們現在是要把準點率拉出來，讓旅客能夠再回流到我們臺鐵進行通勤通學的搭乘。"],["林委員沛祥：我直接問，什麼時候你們會有改善方案？什麼時候我們可以看到成效？"],["杜董事長微：是……"],["林委員沛祥：到底怎麼樣可以讓基隆的通勤族坐臺鐵，可以真的1小時從基隆火車站直接到臺北火車站，而且不會誤點到1小時半，有沒有機會？"],["杜董事長微：有。"],["林委員沛祥：什麼時候給我答案？"],["杜董事長微：我想我們把整體改善的情形整理好以後就跟委員報告，好嗎？"],["林委員沛祥：我這邊還是要跟局長說，因為現在鐵路的乘客量往下掉，變成大家都是自己開車或者坐國道客運，所以我之前跟你提過，1815、1579、1813D這3條路線可能要要加班次，甚至目前有補助的1573跟9026，這5條路線都可能要加班次，而9026經營不善這點對我來講，其實我一直長期關注著，這點我希望局長這邊能夠直接比較主動去做出一些措施來改善這個狀況。而另外一點我也必須這樣講，其實部長自己也常來基隆，這個我知道。"],["杜董事長微：我也時常搭那個客運。"],["林委員沛祥：那你也知道基隆市今年很不錯，我們基隆市的人口居然有增長回到36萬。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["林委員沛祥：但是尷尬的地方就是人口增長都是在西邊的中山區，而中山區現在有一個大型的建案有2,500戶，變成說如果這2,500戶全部都來臺北上班、全部都開車，就會有1,200臺以上的小客車，這樣對於臺北市或整個高速公路的交通會有很大、很大的衝擊。所以上次我有跟局長講，請局長主動而且積極地去尋求可能性，從中山區這邊可以直接到南港的國道客運或者是區間車，這樣才能實質上利用國道客運，然後把我們大眾運具的運載量往上提，最重要的是讓高速公路不會那麼塞車。局長？"],["陳局長文瑞：是，委員所提的這個部分，因應新興社區將來衍生出來客運的需求，包括是不是要新闢路線，或者是原有路線要做一些調整或增班，我想我們已經跟客運業者與監理所在研議了。"],["林委員沛祥：什麼時候可以給我答案呢？"],["陳局長文瑞：這個部分我想會儘快，我在下週就會把我們研議的方案跟委員報告。"],["林委員沛祥：好，我為什麼會這麼急？原因是如果我們不早一點去做先前的準備的話，那邊社區的人最後就全部開車上去，不只在基隆市內交通會塞，高速公路也會塞，甚至到臺北也會塞，這種狀況是我們都不想看到的。之前高公局局長有跟我講過，特地去談從內湖到五堵都有高速公路的擴建計畫，但是緩不濟急。部長，如果您可以，剛剛萬委員有提過，有空的話他跟魯明哲召委一起邀請您到桃園，而我在這邊也會……能夠的話我也很樂意邀您來基隆做一次考察。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，你不用邀請我或要求我，因為您剛剛說的那個新興社區就在我岳母家的旁邊。"],["林委員沛祥：喔，是喔！"],["陳部長世凱：我太太帶小朋友要回娘家也是搭那邊的客運，所以我會積極督促……"],["林委員沛祥：你知道那邊的客運站……"],["陳部長世凱：在之前就載滿了啦！"],["林委員沛祥：對。"],["陳部長世凱：所以來沒辦法載。"],["林委員沛祥：是沒有辦法載的。"],["陳部長世凱：我知道，因為我太太遇到同樣的問題。"],["林委員沛祥：如果部長知道這個狀況的話，我們就請局長跟各相關單位積極解決好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我時常會去基隆，再找委員一起瞭解。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝沛祥委員，我看你們聊天最後一段好溫馨，半個基隆人。好，我們現在休息10分鐘，謝謝大家。","休息（11時2分）","繼續開會（11時14分）"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會，接下來有請陳素月委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","黃國昌","盧縣一","林月琴","洪申翰","牛煦庭","黃健豪","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","徐欣瑩","林國成","劉建國","傅崐萁"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-26"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善\n成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通\n部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情\n況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137601_00018"}}},{"date":"2024-09-26","影片長度":"00:10:12","end_time":"2024-09-26T10:51:39+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154891","委員名稱":"萬美玲","duration":612,"start_time":"2024-09-26T10:41:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/82d3b85b2355f090653d3054313bb107b56164d929a988cd19c15283588c52b54e85fd41815b697d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.30909375,"end":4.6040937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.127218750000001,"end":6.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.40846875,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.77096875,"end":17.867843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.867843750000002,"end":19.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.65221875,"end":26.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.22096875,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.32221875,"end":26.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.38971875,"end":26.406593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.406593750000003,"end":26.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.60909375,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.625968750000002,"end":26.676593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.676593750000002,"end":26.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.098468750000002,"end":128.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.42409375,"end":131.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.71909375,"end":304.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.78971875000002,"end":194.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.61784375,"end":267.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.89721875000004,"end":289.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.06346875,"end":325.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.46534375000005,"end":339.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.16346875000005,"end":351.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.82409375000003,"end":381.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.00971875000005,"end":379.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.83659375,"end":432.52034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.20784375000005,"end":411.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.70471875000004,"end":413.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.10721875,"end":432.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.89159375,"end":533.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.71346875,"end":438.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.97346875000005,"end":476.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.99471875000006,"end":502.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.9990937499999,"end":530.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.97284375,"end":534.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.64784375,"end":535.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.76159375,"end":536.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.7065937500001,"end":539.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.32221875,"end":539.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.3390937500001,"end":543.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.8915937500001,"end":542.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.51159375,"end":583.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.77971875,"end":557.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.70284375,"end":561.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.61909375,"end":590.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.9809687500001,"end":590.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.36909375,"end":602.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.48596875,"end":602.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.5359687499999,"end":610.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.1128437500001,"end":611.59784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.792,"end":17.442,"text":"謝謝召委,我們有請陳世凱部長好,陳部長好,部長上任到今天第幾天?25天今天來備詢緊不緊張?"},{"start":20.857,"end":34.647,"text":"過去有12年質詢別人的經驗今天第一次備詢當然有一些需要適應的過程好那我想我們就開始喔我想雖然你過去還沒有上任但是這個交通上面你來了以後應該都有多所去了解111年12月"},{"start":36.288,"end":54.404,"text":"因為美國媒體CNN的報導將台灣稱作行人地獄所以我想整個國人或者政府整個開始重視我們行人的交通安全所以立法院也要回應這個改善行人安全所以在去年的4月份我們也修正了道路交通管理處罰條例那麼對於不停讓行人加重處罰6000"},{"start":57.006,"end":81,"text":"那去年8月20號的時候部長有沒有注意到我們行人零死亡推動聯盟號召了近3萬人來一個大遊行那麼訴求就是要終結台灣行人交通地域所以12月立法院也馬上三讀通過了道路交通安全基本法將交通事故零死亡的一個願景跟以人為本的主張納入修法這個我想部長應該知道不過呢"},{"start":81.42,"end":85.622,"text":"一年多過去全國行人死傷人數111年17157人112年來到17660人其中讓人更遺憾痛心的是12歲以下的兒童死傷人數111年972人"},{"start":99.528,"end":128.701,"text":"一百一十二年一千兩百四十二人他不僅僅是增加而且還雙雙創下五年來的新高這個數字部長雖然剛到任可是要深刻的記在心中那麼這等於什麼每一天平均有四十八位行人其中四位是兒童在台灣的道路上非死即傷而且這個數字的背後我們都知道這代表是一個一個破碎的家庭所以我想這個數字部長我想請您後面那兩位先回座"},{"start":130.478,"end":150.701,"text":"回座謝謝好這樣子部長比較可以專心啊因為聽說您今天是來聆聽的嘛對不對那我想真的要認真聆聽喔那這個數字喔其實我們觸目驚心您跟我跟我們的國人啊都覺得這樣的數字是不可以存在的其實真的要聆啊那不但沒有聆還不斷去上升喔好我們再來看喔"},{"start":151.041,"end":164.038,"text":"交通部在今年113年預算在道路交通安全的向下你編列了6.05億辦理第14期行政院頒訂的道路交通秩序與交通安全改進方案的這些業務嘛對不對好112年也編了6.7億這兩年編的"},{"start":169.485,"end":185.632,"text":"都相較於111年的3.08億增加了3億好 我們再看111年底行政院合訂了校園周邊際道路行車安全改善計畫由內政部跟交通部分別編列了41.5億跟3.5億那麼之後又有"},{"start":189.033,"end":215.351,"text":"永續提升人行安全計畫這個四年計畫,部長應該知道嗎?好,113年到116年總經費來到了400億由內政部跟交通部分別匡列了260億跟140億本席為什麼以上在談這些背景一方面因為部長要聆聽那我不知道這些數字,部長已經知不知道了我必須讓您知道但更重要的是,以上換句話說就是"},{"start":216.151,"end":239.862,"text":"當我們要改善這些交通尤其是在行人這個事情上面政府你們是要法我們給法你們要錢我們給錢你們希望修法我們修法你們希望要經費我們給經費但是呢行人死傷的人數還是逐年的增加那我相信許許多多我們所有的委員不管是不是交通委員會的委員每一個人都非常關心那也問過這個歷任的交通部長"},{"start":242.443,"end":263.96,"text":"這個問題一而再再而三其實在這個委員會裡面一直都在好像似乎沒有辦法解決那您上任了以後大家對您當然有很高度的期許因為大家都在質疑說您不是交通的背景還有過去的經歷好像跟交通都沒有關係但是本行今天並不在這件事情上面對你存有非常大的質疑因為我們還是願意給你機會給你這個時間去把它好好做好不過"},{"start":268.263,"end":273.908,"text":"您已經上任第一時間您提出了解決方案真的讓我們瞠目結舌啊您竟然說要改善是要提高見警率啊加強取締啊這個就是你還沒解決一個問題你又帶出了另外一個問題啊我覺得非常不可思議喔"},{"start":283.837,"end":304.11,"text":"我不知道這在引起這個輿論一片嘩然之後你有沒有覺得非常的懊惱覺得怎麼會提出這樣子那等一下我把它講完待會留時間給您我想取締絕對是交通上面的一個手段而不是目的啦安全才是這個我們一定都有這個共識所以呢你當初把它提出來的時候交通沒有解決反而我覺得警戒一片炸鍋啦來部長"},{"start":305.071,"end":324.711,"text":"好 謝謝委員感謝您今天提到這個問題我也一直想要說明這個問題因為坦白說大家有這樣的說法表示什麼表示這是一個很典型的大家只看標題沒看文字的內容如果有仔細看那篇報導的內容在當天的記者會我的說法是第一我們要窮盡所有工程的手段"},{"start":325.552,"end":351.246,"text":"第二、我們要針對教育安全宣導的部分道路安全的教育宣導的部分我們要積極去落實讓道路安全的觀念落實在每一個人的腦海裡第三、由於我剛剛有講過一個數據因為我們行人的這個死亡的部分有佔了四成不管是車的違規或者是行人的違規針對違規的部分佔了四成坦白說要解救任何的人命"},{"start":352.186,"end":375.114,"text":"該做的做法都應該要做所以第三個方案我提出要加強執法而加強執法裡面有科技執法也有見警率的部分我講的其實是完整的這樣子那第四還有一個很重要就是監理的方案這個部分也是交通部一直在努力的但很可惜的是當時的媒體只有取一個標題但內容都有寫到不過更可惜的是有一些"},{"start":376.414,"end":393.9,"text":"朋友大概都沒有看我當時講的內容也沒有看報導內容不是啊我想這個本席其實今天因為外媒人會時間有限但我還是給了你很多時間去做說明感謝那我希望啦你講的很好解決交通的問題每一個面向能做都要做那但是呢我覺得這個有輕重緩急還有能"},{"start":395.981,"end":403.743,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":416.826,"end":419.767,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》"},{"start":439.915,"end":463.805,"text":"我想你一定自己也有注意到因為雖然你身為交通部長但同時你有另外一個身份你也是行人或者你也可能是駕駛人所以我們這幾年看到我們停讓行人其實在現場的執行還是有很多的問題跟困擾那你不管是今天我們禮讓行人在邁馬線上走的時候我們右轉的車輛可能就是後面大塞車大排長龍那甚至於還是有這個駕駛會去搶時間"},{"start":466.207,"end":493.709,"text":"所以我覺得我們看到的是不希望一個政策還沒有解決一個問題行人地域還沒有解決就行車地域又來了我們希望這個問題部長能夠改善積極那最後一點我們去年提交通部要地方優先提報這個義照市入口的改善合計提報799處入口那目前改善245處也就是改善率只有30.6%非常非常的低那這一點呢"},{"start":494.249,"end":507.465,"text":"我想不論是中央不論是地方應該都要配合因為我覺得交通的問題不會分藍綠那任何一個縣市都有可能面對交通帶來的一個困境所以這個30.6%為什麼這麼低我希望會後部長能夠來把這個做一個說明那最後"},{"start":513.792,"end":538.7,"text":"最後本席今天非常的羨慕這個高雄啊非常羨慕許志傑委員啊他今天在這裡啊上來的時候呢不斷的感謝您那我隱約只聽到感謝非常非常多特別是您上任第一天都要到高雄所以他感謝您非常多事情其實我非常非常羨慕啦那當然喔我們桃園啊不知道部長上來來過了嗎去過了來過幾次一次來過一次所以連我們朝委都不知道您來過"},{"start":539.56,"end":555.279,"text":"其實我是自己去看的您自己去看的不是公開的那我想我希望因為您剛上任我們不會苛求不過呢我們總是希望如果其他的縣市都走過您熟悉的台中啦或者是您重視的這個高雄啦我們覺得很棒很好"},{"start":556.581,"end":578.316,"text":"很好很好那我們希望桃園現在有綠線捷運各項捷運在做鐵路地下化延宕了9年那現在問題非常的多同時桃園的這個國道客運的問題相當的嚴重我們希望能不能在這邊我公開的來邀請部長能夠在最短的時間之內跟我們的交委跟我們桃園這邊來做一個聯繫那請部長下來幫我們解決桃園許多的交通問題可以嗎"},{"start":583.9,"end":609.457,"text":"報告委員我昨天有跟召委報告過了隨時他邀請我隨時去我也可以邀請您嗎沒問題沒問題就大家一起因為今天有聽說嘛您這個交通委員會的委員都這個這個拜訪完了那有一些非交通委員會也有拜訪那我想說我辦公室406非常歡迎部長來好不好好最後兩句話您接交通部長我本人非常佩服您的勇氣但是我更想看到您的成績沒問題謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:41:27 - 10:51:39","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154891","gazette":{"lineno":444,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（10時41分）謝謝召委，有請陳世凱部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，從上任到今天是第幾天？"],["陳部長世凱：第25天。"],["萬委員美玲：今天來備詢緊不緊張？"],["陳部長世凱：過去有12年質詢別人的經驗，今天第一次備詢，當然有一些需要適應的過程。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我想我們就開始。雖然你過去還沒有上任，但是交通上面，你來了以後應該都有去多所了解。111年12月因為美國媒體CNN的報導，將臺灣稱作行人地獄，國人或者政府也開始重視我們行人的交通安全，而立法院也要回應這個改善行人安全的部分，所以在去年4月份我們也修正了道路交通管理處罰條例，對於不停讓行人加重處罰6,000元。去年8月20號的時候，不知道部長有沒有注意到？行人零死亡推動聯盟號召了近3萬人來了一個大遊行，訴求就是要終結臺灣行人交通地獄，所以12月立法院也馬上三讀通過了道路交通安全基本法，將交通事故零死亡的願景跟以人為本的主張納入修法，這個我想部長應該知道。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["萬委員美玲：不過一年多過去了，全國行人死傷人數，111年是1萬7,157人，112年來到1萬7,660人，其中讓人更遺憾、痛心的是，12歲以下的兒童死傷人數，111年是972人，112年1,242人，它不僅僅是增加，而且還雙雙創下5年來的新高，這個數字部長雖然剛到任，可是要深刻地記在心中。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["萬委員美玲：那麼這等於什麼？每一天平均有48位行人，其中有4位是兒童，在臺灣的道路上非死即傷，而且這個數字的背後，我們都知道這代表的是一個、一個破碎的家庭，所以我想這個數字……部長，我想請您後面那兩位先回座，謝謝，這樣子部長比較可以專心，因為聽說您今天是來聆聽的，對不對？我想真的要認真聆聽。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["萬委員美玲：這個數字其實讓我們怵目驚心，您跟我，跟我們的國人都覺得這樣的數字是不可以存在的，其實真的要是0，但不但沒有0，還不斷地上升。好，我們再來看，交通部今（113）年的預算，在「道路交通安全」項下編列了6.05億，辦理第14期行政院頒定的「道路交通秩序與交通安全改進方案」這些業務，對不對？好，112年也編了6.7億，這兩年編的相較於111年的3.08億，都增加了3億。好，我們再看，111年底行政院核定了「校園周邊暨道路行車安全改善計畫」，由內政部跟交通部分別編列了41.5億跟3.5億，那麼之後又有「永續提升人行安全計畫」這個4年的計畫，部長應該知道嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：我知道，400億。"],["萬委員美玲：好，113年到116年總經費來到400億，由內政部跟交通部分別匡列了260億跟140億，本席為什麼以上在談這些背景？一方面因為部長要聆聽，我不知道這些數字部長已經知道了，還是不知道，我必須讓您知道，但更重要的是，以上換句話說就是，當我們要改善這些交通，尤其是在行人這件事情上面，你們政府要法，我們給法；你們要錢，我們給錢；你們希望修法，我們修法；你們希望要經費，我們給經費，但是行人死傷的人數還是逐年地增加，我相信我們許許多多及所有的委員，不管是不是交通委員會的委員，每一個人都非常關心，也問過歷任的交通部長，這個問題一而再、再而三，其實在這個委員會裡面一直都在，好像沒有辦法解決。您上任了以後，大家對您當然有很高度的期許，因為大家都在質疑您不是交通的背景，還有過去的經歷好像跟交通都沒有關係，但是本席今天並不是在這件事情上面對你存有非常大的質疑，因為我們還是願意給你機會，給你時間去把它好好做好。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["萬委員美玲：不過您上任的第一時間，提出的解決方案真的讓我們瞠目結舌，你竟然說要改善是要提高見警率、加強取締，這個就是你還沒有解決一個問題，你又帶出了另外一個問題，我覺得非常不可思議，我不知道這在引起輿論一片譁然之後，你有沒有覺得非常的懊惱，覺得怎麼會提出這樣子的方案？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["萬委員美玲：等一下，我把它講完，待會會留時間給您。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["萬委員美玲：我想取締絕對是交通上面的一個手段，而不是目的，安全才是，我們一定都有這個共識，所以你當初把它提出來的時候，交通沒有解決，反而我覺得警界一片炸鍋。來，部長。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員，感謝您今天提到這個問題，我也一直想要說明這個問題，因為坦白說，大家有這樣的說法表示什麼？表示這是一個很典型的，大家只看標題，沒看文字的內容，如果有仔細看那一篇報導的內容，在當天的記者會，我的說法是：第一，我們要窮盡所有工程的手段。第二，針對道路安全教育宣導的部分，我們要積極去落實，讓道路安全的觀念落實在每一個人的腦海裡。第三，由於我剛剛有講過一個數據，因為我們行人死亡的部分占了四成，不管是車的違規或者是行人的違規，針對違規的部分占了四成，坦白說，要解救任何的人命，該做的做法都應該要做，所以第三個方案我提出要加強執法，而加強執法裡面有科技執法，也有見警率的部分，我講的完整的內容其實是這樣子。第四，還有一個很重要的，就是監理的方案，這個部分也是交通部一直在努力的，但很可惜的是，當時的媒體只有取一個標題，但內容都有寫到，不過更可惜的是，有一些朋友大概都沒有聽我當時講的內容，也沒有看報導的內容，只有看標題……"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，其實本席今天因為是外委員會，時間有限，但我還是給了你很多時間去說明。"],["陳部長世凱：感謝。"],["萬委員美玲：您講得很好，解決交通的問題，每一個面向能做的都要做，但是我覺得這個有輕重緩急，還有能不能執行的執行率問題，所以我想你講提高見警率這件事情，我覺得你顯然沒有很了解，其實我們現在基層警力也是嚴重不足，所以我希望……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果大家、委員覺得見警率不應該加進去，那未來就不要再提。"],["萬委員美玲：這件事情不需要在這裡爭辯。"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題。"],["萬委員美玲：你前面的部分其實我也同意，我們全方面都要來做。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["萬委員美玲：但是一上來就等於有這樣一個……您認為是誤會也好，但我們認為其實你在各種方法的比例跟執行率上，沒有掌握得很好。"],["陳部長世凱：我其實講得很完整，是大家只看那個標題。"],["萬委員美玲：我想您剛剛上任，我們也希望後面能夠看到有一些更具體的作為。"],["陳部長世凱：我會努力。"],["萬委員美玲：再來，我想你自己一定也有注意到，雖然你身為交通部長，但同時你有另外一個身分，你也是行人，或者你也可能是駕駛人。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["萬委員美玲：所以我們這幾年看到，我們停讓行人，其實在現場的執行還是有很多的問題跟困擾，不管是今天我們禮讓行人，等他們在斑馬線上走的時候，我們右轉的車輛，可能就是後面大塞車、大排長龍，甚至於還是有駕駛會去搶時間。我們不希望看到的是一個政策還沒有解決一個問題，行人地獄還沒有解決，行車地獄又來了，我們希望這個問題部長能夠趕快積極處理。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["萬委員美玲：最後一點，去年底交通部要地方優先提報易肇事路口的改善，合計提報799處路口，目前改善了245處，也就是改善率只有30.6%，非常非常的低，這一點我想不論是中央或是地方應該都要配合，因為我覺得交通的問題不會分藍綠。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["萬委員美玲：任何一個縣市都有可能面對交通帶來的困境。30.6%為什麼這麼低？我希望會後部長能夠說明這個部分。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["萬委員美玲：最後，本席今天非常羨慕高雄，非常羨慕許智傑委員，他今天上來這裡的時候不斷地感謝您，我隱約一直聽到感謝非常非常多，特別是您上任第一天就到高雄，所以他感謝您非常多事情……"],["陳部長世凱：他感謝的是交通部。"],["萬委員美玲：其實我非常非常的羨慕，不知道部長上任後來過我們桃園了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：去過了。"],["萬委員美玲：來過幾次？"],["陳部長世凱：一次。"],["萬委員美玲：來過一次，所以連我們召委都不知道您來過？"],["陳部長世凱：其實我是自己去看，所以不是公開的。"],["萬委員美玲：您自己去看的？"],["陳部長世凱：對，不是公開的。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我想因為您剛上任，我們不會苛求，不過我們總是希望如果其他的縣市都走過，您熟悉的臺中或者是您重視的高雄，我們覺得很棒、很好……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，花蓮我去了兩次，因為那邊狀況比較辛苦。"],["萬委員美玲：很好，桃園現在有綠線捷運、各項捷運在做，鐵路地下化延宕了9年，現在問題非常的多，同時桃園的國道客運問題也相當嚴重，我們希望在這邊公開地邀請部長能夠在最短的時間之內，跟召委、跟桃園來做一個聯繫，請部長下來幫我們解決桃園許許多多的交通問題，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，我昨天有跟召委報告過了，他隨時邀請，我隨時去。"],["萬委員美玲：我也可以邀請您嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題、沒問題，就大家一起。"],["萬委員美玲：好，因為今天有聽說您交通委員會的委員都拜訪完了，有一些非交通委員會的也有拜訪，我的辦公室是406，非常歡迎部長來……"],["陳部長世凱：我加速，很快就會到萬委員那邊去拜訪。"],["萬委員美玲：好，最後兩句話，您接交通部長，我本人非常佩服您的勇氣，但是我更想看到您的成績，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題，我會努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝萬委員，接下來有請林沛祥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝部長謝謝委員部長今天算是您就任後第一次來到我們立法院也是教育會第一次來做報告跟備詢那其實從一開始的一些業務報告因為其實您就任的時候那當然有一些可能一些社會的輿論是說可能部長在專業度上面好像不是科班出身的"},{"start":57.99,"end":73.538,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":78.621,"end":102.412,"text":"的做一些宣誓可能還是不太夠的啦我是覺得個人有點可惜啦那今天有幾大主題那當然第一個我最關心的還是行人安全的一個部分啦在行人安全的部分當然過去這兩三年來政府投入了非常多的一個資源上百億但是一個客觀的一個統計數據嘛在今年的上半這當然是你就任之前的事啦"},{"start":103.112,"end":123.094,"text":"在今年上半年跟去年同期的行人死亡數還是增加的嗎?還是增加的對不對?那我們有沒有徹底去檢討說為什麼我們政府花了這麼多錢上百億的經費但是我們的行人的A1死亡事故率還是沒有下降?內貿政隊都有部分去做一些科學化的一個客觀數據的檢討"},{"start":125.923,"end":147.088,"text":"報告委員這個部分的數據其實我都有看有仔細的去分析因為發生了事件我們就要去先理解一件事就是為什麼會發生那我們去看的那個數據有21%是汽車未禮讓行人所以發生了不幸的事件有19%是行人未照標示標線"},{"start":150.05,"end":158.035,"text":"這兩項加起來都是違規的狀態有的是車的違規有的是行人的違規最高的是這兩項總共加起來佔了差不多四成所以以科學化來看對於違規的事件我們要怎麼有效的降低這是很重要的一件事"},{"start":173.527,"end":197.076,"text":"那除了這個違規的部分那有沒有針對我們的年齡啊或者是說造勢的車輛的樣態比如說今天討論非常多的是公車或者是說時段白天或者是晚上哪個時段比較容易發生車禍或者是上班的接風時間還是反而是離風的時間容易發生A1的事故那我們是針對這些"},{"start":198.937,"end":223.52,"text":"科學化的客觀的數據我們才能夠對症去下藥因為我們政府已經花很多錢了代表有一些可能是我們過去沒有注意到的東西那這部分有沒有可以再補充加強說明的跟委員報告數據上面來看您也非常的專業也非常的理解其實比較多的是年紀比較長的長者會比較多那以車型來講的話機車所佔的比例差不多佔了六成左右"},{"start":223.82,"end":249.753,"text":"我剛才講的長者差不多佔了4成然後機車的部分佔了6成那發生的時間點不幸事故發生的時間點時常都是早上的6點到8點也就是上班時間之前的這一段可能是長者出來在運動之類的還有就是傍晚的時間可能會比較多一些那這個部分有可能是因為天氣天候開始變暗開始變暗的時候其實風險就會增加那這個部分我們是目前掌握的數據"},{"start":250.393,"end":270.643,"text":"那也就是說除了可能一些客觀的一些路口的一個行人友善設施之外那還是有一些其他因子會提升我們行人或者是交通車輛發生事故的一些原因那我們有沒有針對當然路口的一些友善設施這個是政府花錢編列去補助地方做的沒有錯但是有一些"},{"start":271.443,"end":299.6,"text":"特殊情境的發生事故率高的情況那我們怎麼樣來避免這些高風險族群在高風險的時段或是情境去降低相關的風險?這個部分其實我們也在努力我相信大家都有看到就是這個行人穿越道的退縮的部分的工程我們在努力那讓它發生的機率就可以降低那另外就是說針對高風險的地區或者是學生比較多或是族群的部分"},{"start":300.701,"end":321.781,"text":"對老人家比較多的地方我們可能也會做一些路口讓大家在路標上面看起來比較明顯有不一樣的顏色不一樣的色彩然後再來就是說行人早開實相這個部分或者是行人專用實相這個部分我們也是全國都在推行目前大概有五千多處已經完成尤其這個特殊族群的宣導"},{"start":322.822,"end":339.401,"text":"教育的部分老人家的宣導老人家的教育或是特殊發生事故率高的用車族群的教育的部分有一些委員其實很關心說為什麼這個交通部今年的這個宣傳的預算有增加了不少那我們增加的最高的比例差不多佔了八成到九成"},{"start":339.861,"end":369.441,"text":"就是針對行人的宣導的部分那我們過去的宣導也有發現一個狀況就是說我們過去都蠻重視在網路上面或者其他的這個手機上面的宣導但我們有發現老人家比較會看電視比較會看紙本的文宣所以在未來我們的改善方案裡面就是在宣導跟宣傳的部分增加電視的廣告那增加紙本的廣告甚至可以到公園去跟地方政府合作在公園跟老人家做宣導這個部分我們都會持續來努力"},{"start":369.781,"end":385.609,"text":"好我想這個我想今天最主要的最主要的部分就是提醒說我們既然政府正是這個問題了那全民其實也都非常重視這個問題花了這麼多錢下去結果這個事故的A1死傷率居然沒有下降反而是提升代表有某一些部分"},{"start":386.329,"end":407.712,"text":"是我們過去忽略的我們以為花錢就可以解決事情的但實際上並不是那我們可能需要更深刻去探討他或許每年幾件這是一個統計的數據但是我們必須要去探討他每一件背後發生的原因然後來對症下藥然後才解決它我們政府的經費才不會白花那我可不可以給部長看您願不願意"},{"start":409.294,"end":426.688,"text":"因為畢竟您在就任前這個死亡人數較去年通緝是增加的那您有沒有信心在您就任後的半年您有沒有給自己一個相關的目標希望國內的行人A1的事故在您就任後的半年有一個最起碼的怎樣的一個改善"},{"start":428.009,"end":455.149,"text":"報告委員我們整體的目標因為說實在的你說短期之內要快速的解決我覺得沒有這麼容易但是我們希望在2030年之前能夠讓他的機率降低50%那以整體的不說行人的以整體的這個肇事的死亡死傷率來講的話我們在前半年其實是有達標的是有達標的那我們希望拉一個長段時間來看包含委員剛才在講的工程的努力"},{"start":455.509,"end":456.19,"text":"我們今年希望能夠降7%"},{"start":471.122,"end":490.55,"text":"今年是您的任內的跟去年同期相比還是整年度整年度整年度包含你就任前的部分比上一年度降低百分之七我們希望朝這個方向好百分之七大家一起加油我不會說你沒有達到就要下台怎麼樣但是我希望部長給自己一個目標我們同仁會有更有一個目標來來努力"},{"start":493.331,"end":508.927,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":513.471,"end":538.23,"text":"一二零零這個東西是不會動的對不對不受影響不受影響那代表說我們政府的補貼金額是要增加的嘛對不對必然是的是必然的票價增加因為我們的TPUS的原則是一二零零吃到飽對一二零零吃到飽那我們的民眾即便他搭的台鐵的這個用具工具他的價格提高這個部分都由政府來吸收對一部分是中央政府嘛一部分是地方政府那我不確定這一個部分有沒有地方政府已經提出來因為這個是"},{"start":539.531,"end":555.904,"text":"一定是增加地方政府的一個財政支出的一個情形嗎?我們今年漲價的機會是蠻高的應該是這樣子看但是地方政府你們有沒有提前請他們因為地方政府現在也在編經費啦他們有沒有提早你們有沒有告訴他們說需要編列多少經費"},{"start":557.565,"end":576.406,"text":"來支應這個漲價,或者是說,我們交通部,我們台鐵漲價沒關係,那我們也不要增加地方政府的負擔。相關的差額,在明年度的時候,我們交通部必須來把它cover掉。不要讓地方政府增加負擔。跟委員報告,TPAS的部分,它的經費90%是由中央來負擔,10%是由地方來負擔。"},{"start":579.349,"end":601.052,"text":"那雖然比例上不高不過未來台鐵如果是漲價之後我們的公路局會再跟地方來做協商盡量不要讓地方增加太多的負擔好那這一點就麻煩好不好希望能夠不要增加地方財政的負擔就不要增加財政的負擔不要變成說好我們中央同意台鐵漲價我們中央也很霸氣的跟民眾說"},{"start":602.293,"end":608.04,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就 «雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫》二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:30:42 - 10:41:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154890","gazette":{"lineno":385,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（10時30分）謝謝召委，麻煩邀請陳部長。"],["主席：有請陳部長。部長，建議一下，你回到位子一下，因為在立法院不管是你到其他委員會，麻煩是不是起立徵求發言？我想以前議會也是一樣，好不好？先起立，然後徵求發言。請，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["廖委員先翔：部長，今天算是您就任後第一次來到立法院交委會報告跟備詢，其實從一開始的一些業務報告，因為您就任的時候，當然可能有一些社會的輿論是說部長在專業度上面好像不是科班出身的，可能有一些人對你有一些質疑。其實在您今天的報告，我覺得部長好像沒有好好把握機會，你還是把許多發言的時間都留給下屬，自己本身有一些宣示性的發言，或者是您為破除大家對你的質疑所做的一些宣示可能還是不太夠，我個人覺得有點可惜。","今天有幾大主題，當然第一個我最關心的還是行人安全部分。在行人安全部分，過去這兩、三年來，政府投入了非常多的資源，有上百億，但是依據一個客觀的統計數據……這當然是你就任之前的事，今年上半年較去年同期的行人死亡數還是增加的，對不對？我們有沒有澈底去檢討？為什麼政府花了這麼多錢，上百億的經費，但是行人的A1死亡事故率還是沒有下降？你有沒有針對這個部分去做一些科學化客觀數據的檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分的數據其實我都有看，有仔細地去分析，因為發生了事件，我們就要去先理解一件事，就是為什麼會發生，而我們去看的那個數據，有21%是汽車未禮讓行人，所以發生了不幸的事件；有19%是行人未照標示、標線穿越馬路，所以造成……"],["廖委員先翔：所以A1的事故發生有一半大概是駕駛，一半可能是行人自己本身就違規的情況？"],["陳部長世凱：這樣說好了，這兩項加起來都是違規的狀態，有的是車的違規、有的是行人的違規，最高的是這兩項，總共加起來占了差不多四成，所以以科學化來看，對於違規的事件，我們要怎麼有效地降低是很重要的一件事。"],["廖委員先翔：除了違規的部分，有沒有針對年齡，或者是肇事車輛的樣態？比如今天討論非常多的是公車，或者是時段，白天或者是晚上，哪個時段比較容易發生車禍？或者是上班的尖峰時間，還是反而是離峰的時間容易發生A1的事故？我們針對這些科學化的客觀數據才能夠對症去下藥，因為政府已經花很多錢，代表有一些可能是我們過去沒有注意到的東西，這部分有沒有可以再補充加強說明的？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，由數據上面來看，您也非常地專業、也非常地理解，其實年紀比較長的長者會比較多；以車型來講的話，機車所占的比例差不多占了六成左右，我剛才講的長者差不多占了四成，然後機車的部分占了六成。不幸事故發生的時間點，時常都是早上的6點到8點，也就是上班時間之前的這一段，可能是長者出來運動之類的，還有就是傍晚的時間可能會比較多一些，而這個部分有可能是因為天候開始變暗的時候，其實風險就會增加，這個部分是我們目前掌握的數據。"],["廖委員先翔：也就是說，除了一些客觀的路口行人友善設施之外，還是有一些其他因子會提升行人或者是交通車輛發生事故的原因。我們有沒有針對……當然路口的一些友善設施是政府花錢編列去補助地方政府做的，沒有錯，但是有一些特殊情境發生事故率高的情況，我們怎麼樣來避免這些高風險族群在高風險的時段或者是情境去降低相關的風險？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分其實我們也在努力，我相信大家都有看到，就是行人穿越道退縮部分的工程我們在努力，讓它發生的機率可以降低。另外，針對高風險的地區，或者是學生比較多，或者老人家比較多的地區……"],["廖委員先翔：是族群的部分？"],["陳部長世凱：對，老人家比較多的地方，我們可能也會做一些路口，讓大家在路標上面看起來比較明顯，有不一樣的顏色、不一樣的色彩。再來就是行人早開時相或者是行人專用時相，這個部分我們也是全國都在推行，目前大概有五千多處已經完成。"],["廖委員先翔：我是指特殊族群的宣導、教育部分。"],["陳部長世凱：老人家的宣導？"],["廖委員先翔：對，老人家的教育，或者是特殊的，發生事故率高的用車族群的教育部分。"],["陳部長世凱：有一些委員其實很關心為什麼交通部今年的宣傳預算增加了不少，我們增加最高的比例差不多占了八成到九成，就是針對行人的宣導部分，我們過去的宣導也有發現一個狀況，就是我們過去都蠻重視在網路上面或者其他的手機上面的宣導，但我們有發現老人家比較會看電視、比較會看紙本的文宣，所以在未來我們的改善方案裡面，也就是在宣導跟宣傳的部分，增加電視的廣告、增加紙本的廣告，甚至跟地方政府合作，在公園跟老人家宣導，這個部分我們都會持續來努力。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我想今天最主要的部分就是要提醒，政府既然正視這個問題了，全民其實也都非常重視這個問題，花了這麼多錢下去，結果A1事故的死傷率居然沒有下降，反而是提升，代表有某一些部分是過去忽略的，我們以為花錢就可以解決事情，但實際上並不是，我們可能需要更深刻去探討，每年幾件是一個統計的數據，但是我們必須要去探討每一件背後所發生的原因，然後對症下藥並解決它，這樣政府的經費才不會白花。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：我可不可以給部長，看您願不願意？畢竟您在就任前，行人死亡人數較去年同期是增加的，你有沒有信心在您就任後的半年……您有沒有給自己一個相關的目標，希望國內的行人A1事故在您就任後的半年有最起碼怎麼樣的改善？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們整體的目標，因為說實在的，你說短期之內要快速的解決，我覺得沒有這麼容易，但是我們希望在2030年之前能夠讓它的機率降低50%，不說行人的，以整體的肇事死傷率來講的話，我們在前半年其實是有達標的。我們希望拉一個長段時間來看，包含委員剛才在講的，工程的努力，包含教育的努力……"],["廖委員先翔：部長，2030年這個聽起來……剛剛何欣純委員都講了，希望是最後一個，怎麼會把這個數字拉到2030年？這個時間可能交通部長都不知道換幾個了，你能不能給自己一個期許、一個目標？"],["陳部長世凱：我們今年希望能夠降7%。"],["廖委員先翔：今年？"],["陳部長世凱：今年。"],["廖委員先翔：是您任內跟去年同期相比，還是整年度？"],["陳部長世凱：整年度。"],["廖委員先翔：整年度是包含你就任前的部分？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：比上一年度降低7%？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們希望朝這個方向來努力。"],["廖委員先翔：好，7%大家一起加油，我不會說你沒有達到就要下臺或怎麼樣，但是我希望部長給自己一個目標，我們同仁也更有一個目標來努力。"],["陳部長世凱：我知道，謝謝委員。"],["廖委員先翔：另外，第二個部分，請教一下臺鐵的部分，臺鐵不用上來沒關係，因為我不是要討論你們的……跟漲價有關，但是跟你們沒關係，就是我們有一個TPASS專案，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["廖委員先翔：部長有宣示了，就算臺鐵票價漲了，TPASS的1,200部分是不會動的，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：不受影響。"],["廖委員先翔：不受影響？那代表我們政府的補貼金額是要增加的，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：必然是的。"],["廖委員先翔：是必然的？"],["陳部長世凱：如果票價增加，因為TPASS的原則是1,200吃到飽……"],["廖委員先翔：對，1,200吃到飽。"],["陳部長世凱：我們民眾即便搭的臺鐵運具價格提高，這個部分都由政府來吸收。"],["廖委員先翔：對，一部分是中央政府、一部分是地方政府，我不確定這一個部分有沒有地方政府已經提出來？因為這個一定是會增加地方政府財政支出的情形，今年漲價的機會是滿高的，應該是這樣子看。你們會提前請地方政府編列經費嗎？因為地方政府現在也在編經費，你們有沒有提早告知他們需要編列多少經費來支應漲價的部分？或者臺鐵漲價沒關係，我們也不要增加地方政府的負擔，相關的差額在明年度的時候，交通部一次來把它cover掉，不要讓地方政府增加負擔？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，TPASS的部分，它的經費90%是由中央來負擔，10%是由地方來負擔。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["陳部長世凱：雖然比例上不高，不過未來臺鐵如果漲價，之後我們的公路局會再來跟地方協商，儘量不要讓地方增加太多的負擔。"],["廖委員先翔：好，那這一點就麻煩，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力。"],["廖委員先翔：希望能夠不要增加地方財政的負擔，就不要增加財政的負擔，不要變成我們中央同意臺鐵漲價，也很霸氣地跟民眾說我們的TPASS不會漲價，但結果地方政府又要多編列、多籌措財源來支應我們交通費的負擔，以上。"],["陳部長世凱：好的。"],["廖委員先翔：後續有相關的討論進度也麻煩能夠讓我們交通委員會知道。"],["陳部長世凱：我再跟委員報告。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝部長、謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖委員。因為林沛祥委員也到了現場，待會等林沛祥委員發言完我們再休息。","接下來有請萬美玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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請陳部長部長好委員好"},{"start":17.458,"end":34.763,"text":"這一次台中發生的令人非常心痛又遺憾我們東海的女大學生被公車撞死那這位女大學生是部長您的東海的小學妹所以我也非常的悲痛你也非常的悲痛所以你現在身為交通部部長我更"},{"start":36.404,"end":50.655,"text":"嚴厲的要求我們中央跟地方應該要好好的合作來把這個行人安全還有道路交通相關的配套我覺得這個大家都責無旁貸啦為什麼呢?尤其你也來自台中"},{"start":51.736,"end":70.996,"text":"台中三年前呢就發生過一次也是同一家客運公司在清水嘉陽高中前面撞死了一個高中生這個高中生住在我太平父母親阿公阿嬤都是我的好朋友三年前我們很心痛很心痛"},{"start":72.844,"end":81.433,"text":"當時候的台中市政府有沒有作為我不知道但是我們看到這個女高中生16歲的年紀"},{"start":84.502,"end":112.611,"text":"他的爸爸媽媽他的阿公阿嬤非常的傷心這一次他們也針對三年後竟然又發生了東海女大學生也一樣被公車撞死他們更加的悲痛而且發出了很多的心聲你知道三年前這個女高中生她是嘉陽高中的航太機械科她的夢是什麼她希望畢業之後可以進入漢翔我們呢真的"},{"start":114.329,"end":139.609,"text":"拜託了漢翔公司去孩子的臨前臨鄉我們送了他榮譽的員工證我們送了一套漢翔的制服給他我們非常心痛的去做這一件事情因為他只能在天堂圓夢他沒有辦法真正實踐他自己的人生夢想這是一個孩子的人生生命可是三年之後"},{"start":141.943,"end":163.329,"text":"你的小學妹走在斑馬線我們在道安在各級學校裡面教孩子教我們的國人我們走路要守法要走在斑馬線他守法了但是呢他一樣被公車撞死你那學生的媽媽昨天有發聲明"},{"start":165.433,"end":183.053,"text":"難道我們的孩子以後走在路上都要穿的盔甲嗎?部長你聽到這句話你做何感想?當然我自己也有孩子每天也都在街道上走路所以聽到這句話當然相當的難過那作為交通部長這個部分我們責無旁貸我們會來努力"},{"start":183.977,"end":208.729,"text":"雖然你才剛接任但是我相信你是台中人你對台中的所有的交通環境不陌生甚至呢擴及到全台灣各縣市的交通環境我們有責任所以過去呢在過去王部長的時代甚至呢在我曾經在商會期當任這個交通委員會的召委的時候我們呢全力訂定了道路交通安全的基本法"},{"start":209.409,"end":238.631,"text":"我們三讀通過了我們接著行人的交通安全設施條例也三讀通過了中央該立法中央該修法中央該政策明確找足預算來補助各地方政府來協助各地方政府來完善行人的交通安全甚至呢所有的交通的配套措施這是我們的責任但是"},{"start":239.878,"end":246.065,"text":"我們中央法規努力做,預算也編了。部長你認為地方政府有跟上嗎?"},{"start":247.562,"end":274.702,"text":"報告委員這個部分其實台中所發生的這個案例我們看到的是一個公車它該停等沒有停等在中央的法令上其實我們也已經有強制性要求大客車跟大貨車在這個過這個馬路要左轉或右轉的時候一定要停等這是強制的而且有罰則這一次這個公車有所謂的輔助系統可是沒有發生功能輔助系統基本上都有裝置"},{"start":275.723,"end":301.072,"text":"那但是公車的這個駕駛員到底自己有沒有注意這是一方面那二方面我剛才在講的是強制停等的部分其實我覺得我問部裡面的同仁跟我講說在北部尤其是台北市大家停等的文化跟停等的觀念比較有但確實我自己來自台中我在台中也看到許多的客貨運業者在轉彎的過程當中不一定會停等這個部分其實就是有風險"},{"start":306.017,"end":318.45,"text":"我們法令上有了該宣導交通部跟地方政府會一起來努力不過要強制讓司機不敢不停等的狀況底下你就必須要有一些執法面的協助"},{"start":319.471,"end":346.653,"text":"讓司機知道說如果假使他不停等會受到嚴厲的懲罰這個部分可能是地方要加強執法的部分這個地方是我們中央地方要加強執法的部分但是有一件事情在行政措施上面是我們中央地方也該做的一件事情比如說臺中市政府每年都有做市區汽車客域的評鑑報告書他每年做喔他從100年一直做喔"},{"start":348.109,"end":373.198,"text":"在這個市區的汽車客運評鑑報告書裡面有五大指標其中一項的指標項目就是部長你剛剛講的駕駛員、旅客服務品質與駕駛員管理還有安全也是另外一個指標那我們每年都在做都要求地方政府要做這些客運的評鑑那評鑑服務書出來了之後"},{"start":376.26,"end":395.889,"text":"有追蹤嗎?有追蹤嗎?有考核嗎?有確實的要求地方政府去要求這些市區的客運去要求駕駛員嗎?後續有嗎?部長,後續好像沒有你知道更諷刺的是什麼?我找到了一個數字根據剛剛"},{"start":397.89,"end":418.211,"text":"我提到的一百一十一年度臺中市市區汽車客運營運及服務評鑑計畫書是在去年的十二月二十二號公布的你知道這一次昭市的劇業劇業劇業竟然是滿分最高分"},{"start":420.185,"end":436.102,"text":"我不知道是算錯了還是怎麼樣欸一百一十年度我剛剛很心痛的坐在我太平的女高中生才被這一家客運公司的公車撞死了結果隔年他的這個評鑑他竟然是這樣子的分數"},{"start":441.449,"end":463.765,"text":"我們希望地方政府對於客運業者的這個評鑑可以更落實而且要更務實要確實看出因為這個評鑑其實除了要獎勵之外重點是要看出問題在評鑑的過程要看出每一個業者他的問題在哪裡那如果找得出問題就可以克服問題那如果這個評鑑總是分數都很高沒有找出問題那就很可惜"},{"start":464.301,"end":482.678,"text":"那部長你可不可以責成我們相關單位我們是不是可以來盤點各地方政府針對市區公車業者的這個所謂的評鑑雖然可能是他地方自治的項目但是我們可不可以就專業來協助各地方政府說那你的評鑑這個服務什麼服務書做得好不好"},{"start":486.101,"end":492.364,"text":"做的有沒有後續的一個追蹤、考核有沒有落實那能不能像部長一樣說的我們要從這個評鑑報告書裡面看出他們有什麼問題那有問題我們針對問題中央來協助地方甚至協助客運公司來解決"},{"start":505.615,"end":533.32,"text":"我們請市長各位委員報告委員提的這個方向我想我們這個公務局那邊有公共運輸補助計畫我們透過這個公共運輸的一個這個補助的機制來要求各地方政府每年評鑑做完之後必須要請專家學者來做審驗那另外一個部分就是說每年在訂這個評鑑這個指標項目的時候我們也就是說一起來做這個解釋讓每個地方政府要做評鑑的項目一定要切合他這個地方"},{"start":533.98,"end":550.838,"text":"這一個包括營運安全所需要的一個部分不是只有在補助款裡面的扣款機制啦我覺得還要再更積極更正向甚至呢更進一步的去輔導甚至呢抓出問題解決問題啦不然你剛剛說扣款部長"},{"start":552.74,"end":576.069,"text":"盧市長在臺中市政府也有五大宣示啊五大宣示的其中一個就是說他要去扣款啊扣一百二十萬啊但是部長你看了那五大宣示你覺得能夠改變現行的市區公車這個客運的生態嗎你覺得這五大宣示之後臺中市就不會再有其他的交通意外事故了嗎"},{"start":577.093,"end":591.93,"text":"我覺得該有的法令規定當然中央政府跟立法院這邊都相當的努力我們盡量在完善當中那地方的硬體建設的部分跟工程的改善我們也盡量在努力不過有兩個很關鍵的一方面是守法的觀念"},{"start":592.47,"end":621.049,"text":"二方面是以業者來說的話對於司機員的管理面跟教育面我覺得這個是重要的地方政府其實可以努力去督促我們給地方政府對於客運的補助其實在給的過程當中我們也會特別去要求地方政府未來在這一塊對於司機員的管理對於客運業者的管理要積極落實部長你剛剛講到一個重點以後表示之前我們的機制強度不夠"},{"start":622.048,"end":628.849,"text":"我們中央給地方政府有關這個汽車科技的補助款的時候我們現在的強度不夠嘛"},{"start":630.455,"end":654.511,"text":"我們加強了要求我們交通部有專業我們有那麼多學者專家那我一個給補助款的時候就如同我剛剛講的給各地方政府該有的專業指導該有的強度的要求那要求什麼你剛剛講到重點守法的觀念還有客運公司駕駛員的這個安全的一個觀念"},{"start":656.252,"end":672.729,"text":"還有要求很多很多那就是強度不夠嘛所以我覺得這個是要用我們政策工具預算補助的這樣的工具我們真的要拿出專業希望中央地方大家一起合作啦不然接下來這一張"},{"start":674.244,"end":695.262,"text":"表格,部長,我們各縣市比一比啊,死亡人數台中市都在增加,那我們每年看到這樣子的一個交通事故的死亡人數你作何感想,這每一條生命都是寶貴的,每一條生命背後都有無數傷心的家人跟破碎的家庭"},{"start":696.434,"end":722.286,"text":"我們跟台中市政府會一起來努力那剛剛蔡其昌委員也有質詢到這個問題我們中央以管考方面也一直在努力例如說台中確實這段時間他的數字是不好的包含這個路口改善的數字也不夠好然後這個死亡率行人死亡的數字也蠻高的所以我們就會要求他到行政院的這個道安的這個工作彙報來做專案報告"},{"start":724.127,"end":742.726,"text":"那報告說他們未來要怎麼樣做改善,這個部分管考的部分我們會積極來要求。責拜託部長,因為你也來自台中,那這一次喪失生命的也是你東海的小學妹,我覺得不管哪一次的事故發生,不管死傷的哪一個人都是一個不幸,我們都希望這不是"},{"start":744.192,"end":756.969,"text":"一直發生我希望他是最後一次甚至我希望連一次都不能發生好不好我們中央地方一起來努力一定要保護我們國人行的安全謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:17:32 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10:30:11","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154889","gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時17分）謝謝召委，大家早，請陳世凱部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：這一次臺中發生了令人非常心痛又遺憾的東海女大學生被公車撞死事件，這位女大學生是部長在東海的小學妹。"],["陳部長世凱：是，所以我也非常的悲痛、非常哀傷。"],["何委員欣純：你也非常的悲痛。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：你現在身為交通部部長，我更嚴厲的要求我們中央跟地方應該要好好地合作，把行人安全還有道路交通相關的配套……我覺得這個大家都責無旁貸啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：為什麼呢？尤其你也來自臺中，臺中三年前就發生過一次，也是同一家客運公司，在清水嘉陽高中前面撞死了一個高中生，這個高中生住在太平，父母親、阿公阿嬤都是我的好朋友，三年前我們很心痛、很心痛！當時的臺中市政府有沒有作為我不知道，但是我們看到這個女高中生16歲的年紀，他的爸爸媽媽、他的阿公阿嬤非常的傷心，這一次三年後竟然又發生了東海女大學生也一樣被公車撞死，他們更加的悲痛，而且發出了很多的心聲！你知道三年前這個女高中生是嘉陽高中的航太機械科，他的夢是什麼？他希望畢業之後可以進入漢翔，我們真的拜託了漢翔公司去孩子的靈前捻香，我們送了他榮譽員工證，我們送了一套漢翔的制服給他，我們非常心痛地去做這一件事情，因為他只能在天堂圓夢，他沒有辦法真正實踐他自己的人生夢想，這是一個孩子的人生、生命！可是三年之後，你的小學妹走在斑馬線，我們在道安……在各級學校裡面教孩子、教我們的國人走路要守法，要走在斑馬線，他守法了，但是他一樣被公車撞死，那個學生的媽媽昨天有發聲明，難道我們的孩子以後走在路上都要穿著盔甲嗎？部長，你聽到這一句話，你作何感想？"],["陳部長世凱：當然我自己也有孩子，每天也都在街道上走路，所以聽到這句話當然相當的難過，作為交通部長，這個部分我們責無旁貸，我們會來努力。"],["何委員欣純：雖然你才剛接任，但你是臺中人，我相信你對臺中所有的交通環境不陌生，甚至擴及到全臺灣各縣市的交通環境，我們都有責任。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：所以過去王部長的時代，甚至我在上會期擔任交通委員會召委的時候，我們全力訂定了道路交通安全基本法，我們三讀通過了，接著行人交通安全設施條例也三讀通過了。中央該立法、中央該修法、中央該政策明確、找足預算來補助各地方政府、協助各地方政府完善行人的交通安全，甚至所有交通的配套措施，這是我們的責任，但是，我們中央法規努力做，預算也編了，部長認為地方政府有跟上嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於這個部分，其實臺中所發生的這個案例，我們看到的是一個公車該停等沒有停等，在中央的法令上，其實我們也已經有強制要求大客車跟大貨車在過馬路要左轉或右轉的時候一定要停等，這是強制的，而且有罰則……"],["何委員欣純：這一次這個公車有所謂的輔助系統，可是沒有發生功能。"],["陳部長世凱：輔助系統基本上都有裝置，但是公車駕駛員到底自己有沒有注意，這是一方面，二方面，我剛才在講的是強制停等的部分，我問部裡面的同仁，他們跟我講在北部，尤其是臺北市，大家比較有停等的文化跟觀念，但確實我自己來自臺中，我在臺中也看到許多的客貨運業者在轉彎的過程當中，不一定會停等，這個部分其實就是有風險……"],["何委員欣純：這個就是我們要去加強的部分，怎麼去要求、怎麼樣去宣導……"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們的法令上有了，該宣導的交通部跟地方政府會一起來努力，不過，如果要強制讓司機不敢不停等，就必須要有一些執法面的協助，讓司機知道假使他不停等，會受到嚴厲的懲罰，這個部分可能是地方要加強執法的部分。"],["何委員欣純：這個地方是我們中央、地方要加強執法的部分，但是有一件事情在行政措施上面是我們中央、地方也該做的，譬如說臺中市政府每年都有做市區汽車客運評鑑報告書，他每年做喔！他從100年一直做，但在這個市區汽車客運評鑑報告書裡面有五大指標，其中一項的指標項目就是部長你剛剛講的駕駛員，旅客服務品質與駕駛員管理，還有安全也是另外一個指標，我們每年都要求地方政府要做這些客運的評鑑，評鑑服務書出來了之後，有follow嗎？有追蹤嗎？有考核嗎？有確實要求地方政府去要求這些市區客運去要求駕駛員嗎？後續有嗎？部長，後續好像沒有，你知道更諷刺的是什麼？我找到了一個數字，根據剛剛我提到的，111年度臺中市市區汽車客運營運及服務評鑑計畫書是在去年12月22號公布的，你知道這一次肇事的巨業竟然是滿分最高分！我不知道是算錯了還是怎麼樣，我剛剛很心痛的住在太平的女高中生，才被這家客運公司的公車撞死了，結果隔年它的評鑑竟然是這樣子的分數，部長你看到這個……"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望地方政府對於客運業者的評鑑可以更落實，而且要更務實，要確實看出，因為這個評鑑其實除了獎勵之外，重點是要看出問題，在評鑑的過程要看出每一個業者的問題在哪裡，如果找得出問題就可以克服問題，但如果這個評鑑總是分數都很高，沒有找出問題，那就很可惜。"],["何委員欣純：部長，你可不可以責成相關單位，我們是不是可以來盤點各地方政府針對市區公車業者所謂的評鑑？雖然可能是地方自治的項目，但是我們可不可以就專業來協助各地方政府看這個評鑑服務書做得好不好、有沒有後續的追蹤考核、有沒有落實？能不能像部長說的一樣，我們要從這個評鑑報告書裡面看出他們有什麼問題，有問題我們就針對問題，中央來協助地方，甚至協助客運公司來解決。"],["陳部長世凱：我們請司長。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，委員提的這個方向，公路局有公共運輸補助計畫，我們透過這個公共運輸的補助機制來要求各地方政府每年評鑑做完之後，必須要請專家學者來做審驗，另外一個部分是，每年在訂評鑑指標項目的時候，我們也一起來做這個檢視，讓每個地方政府要做評鑑的項目一定要切合它這個地方，包括營運安全所需要的部分。"],["何委員欣純：不是只有在補助款裡面的扣款機制，我覺得還要再更積極、更正向，甚至更進一步的去輔導，甚至抓出問題、解決問題，不然你剛剛說扣款，部長，盧市長在臺中市政府也有五大宣示，其中一個就是他要去扣款扣120萬，但是部長你看那五大宣示，你覺得能夠改變現行市區公車客運的生態嗎？你覺得這五大宣示之後，臺中市就不會再有其他的交通意外事故了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得該有的法令規定，當然中央政府跟立法院這邊都相當的努力，我們儘量在完善當中，地方硬體建設的部分跟工程的改善，我們也儘量在努力，不過有兩個很關鍵的，一方面是守法的觀念，二方面是以業者來說，對於司機員的管理面跟教育面，我覺得這個是重要的，地方政府其實可以努力去督促，我們給地方政府對於客運的補助，其實在給的過程當中，我們也會特別去要求地方政府未來在這一塊，對於司機員的管理、對於客運業者的管理要積極落實。"],["何委員欣純：部長剛剛講到一個重點，以後，表示之前我們的機制強度不夠，我們中央給地方政府有關汽車客運的補助款，現在的強度不夠嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：我們加強來要求。"],["何委員欣純：我們交通部有專業，我們有那麼多學者專家，那我們給補助款的時候就如同我剛剛講的，各地方政府該有的專業指導、該有的強度要求，那要要求什麼？你剛剛講到重點，即守法的觀念還有客運公司駕駛員的安全觀念還有要求，很多很多，那就是強度不夠嘛！所以我覺得這個是要用……"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們會加強強度。"],["何委員欣純：我們的政策工具、預算補助這樣的工具，我們真的要拿出專業，希望中央、地方大家一起合作啦！不然接下來這一張表格，部長，我們各縣市比一比，臺中市的死亡人數都在增加，我們每年看到這樣子的交通事故的死亡人數，你作何感想？這每一條生命都是寶貴的，每一條生命背後都有無數傷心的家人跟破碎的家庭，部長。"],["陳部長世凱：我們跟臺中市政府會一起來努力，剛剛蔡其昌委員也有質詢到這個問題，我們中央在管考方面也一直在努力，譬如說臺中確實這段時間的數字是不好的，包含路口改善的數字也不夠好……"],["何委員欣純：對，接下來這一張，路口改善也是非常沒有效率。"],["陳部長世凱：行人死亡的數字也滿高的，所以我們會要求它到行政院道安工作會報來做專案報告，報告他們未來要怎麼樣改善，這個管考的部分我們會積極來要求。"],["何委員欣純：再拜託部長，因為你也來自臺中，這一次喪失生命的也是你東海的小學妹，我覺得不管哪一次的事故發生，不管死傷的哪一個人都是一個不幸，我們都希望這不是一直發生，我希望它是最後一次，甚至我希望連一次都不能發生，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力。"],["何委員欣純：中央、地方一起來努力，一定要保護我們國人行的安全，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何委員。","發言之前先作個宣告，待會發言到萬美玲委員截止，我們先休息10分鐘。","接下來有請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":347.591,"end":367.5,"text":"到曼谷甚至到熊本清邁對熊本清邁這個都即將即將有機會可以開始飛所以也謝謝民航局的努力我們高雄將來我們會一起來爭取讓高雄的飛機可以更寬闊好謝謝部長那再來就是那個"},{"start":369.019,"end":388.735,"text":"海鐵其實剛才那個其昌有提到就是行人地域跟行人安全那我其實一直在想到這個我們的太魯閣事件然後最近的土石流事件那其實部長我們從科學來看應該不是很困難所以你今天有"},{"start":390.391,"end":412.626,"text":"車子進入我們的系統,然後我們攝影機有攝到,有圖書有進入我們的這個,已經錄影機都錄到了,然後卻沒有辦法辨識、警示、通知,都要靠人去處理,我覺得這個已經太不符合科學了,那其實現在有很多AI辨識基本上不困難,"},{"start":413.813,"end":420.552,"text":"是不是可以要求台鐵就是在這個攝影機的辨識能夠加入AI的辨識系統"},{"start":422.556,"end":447.742,"text":"報告委員這個部分應該台鐵都有已經加入了因為我們上次在這個花東所發生的事情在六月的那次的出軌的狀況其實它不是落石它那個時候是土石流從橋下面淹上來所以造成這個脫軌的狀況那這個部分我們也加入檢討所以現在除了我們的監視系統也就是CCTV的告警系統有這個監視的這個AI的判別之外"},{"start":448.402,"end":466.907,"text":"更重要的其實他判別出來之後要有人力還是要有人力去看他如果警示了還是要有人力去看去做判別那才會比較精準因為其實坦白說因為落實的部分他的實塊的大小跟形狀這個部分還要去評估所以AI的部分還是有他的極限但是我們還是會加上人力簡單跟部長報告一下"},{"start":469.349,"end":492.937,"text":"那個因為我有跟董事長聊過啦,他說哎呀還有很多學習的時間啦是,還有一段時間沒辦法這麼快不不不,我要跟部長跟董事長報告有一些參數你先進去就可以處理了,不用學那麼久啦你今天躺在那裡,我多少面積的東西、固定的東西在那裡我辨識出來,我就可以警示,就是辨識跟警示可以一致"},{"start":493.937,"end":516.813,"text":"其實這個在AI的調整這個其實參數有一些是要靠學習有一些是靠input進去給他的所以我不認為要學習那麼久那所以現在就是有26處的立即危險有狀AI我是認為就是說包括這個高風險的72處啦這個部分其實AI趕快請專家來協助交通部跟台鐵"},{"start":518.292,"end":544.989,"text":"這個我相信不困難不需要花這麼長的時間所以就是整個AI的規劃我是認為就是希望部長跟董事長再要求一下好,是各位報告這個部分我們委員交代以後我們會趕快來做評估OK,麻煩啦,因為AI沒那麼高啦AI可以幫我們做得快、做得多不用在那裡等那麼久啦好不好,這個部分請董事長也能夠再加強"},{"start":546.513,"end":558.467,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就:「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":567.191,"end":574.193,"text":"事實上我們也很認真在找廠商但是就是台鐵裡面有幾個問題我想細節我不講太多包括我們的空間設計、動線設計、樓地板設計、手扶梯設計就當時在規劃的時候事實上你就應該去問一下潛在廠商我內部怎麼規劃"},{"start":585.197,"end":599.611,"text":"不是說我整個出來了,現在來,他覺得這個地方不好,這個地方不好,用這個不舒適所以現在台鐵可能內部還要再重新再請建築師,裡面再重新佈置但是你重新佈置之前,我是建議還是要找潛在廠商去談"},{"start":600.532,"end":620.419,"text":"你的需求是怎麼樣,我要怎麼樣調整才能夠覺得說啊,你覺得會合,旅行的行李沒人要坐啦你覺得會合來,啊我怎麼樣去公平公正公開合理的情況之下能夠找到人進來我想這個我也拜託說董事長親自操刀一下"},{"start":621.179,"end":643.243,"text":"這跟委員報告這有兩部分一部分就是我們的招商說明會我們在第二次招標之前我們還是有辦招商說明會然後也有徵詢大家意見那另外第二個就是我們也會高級主管會親自的去拜訪我們的潛在廠商就是希望能夠真正了解他們的需求"},{"start":643.763,"end":667.745,"text":"然後我們在預計是在9月30號我們第二次公告我們的那個公告的內容我們可以來配合這個招商的一個期程來做一個最好的處理所以希望說董事長用一點心去找我舉個例子這部長也聽一下就是樓地板在五六樓本來是要設計"},{"start":669.4,"end":678.531,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":687.014,"end":705.188,"text":"現在看到現在十個月就一定了結了嘛所以你在幾個月前就說一開始在幾個月那包括手扶梯等等的就是我希望說台鐵辛苦一點就是說能夠配合大家雙方面的需求那能夠順利把它招商出去那該怎麼改的大家怎麼樣去分擔"},{"start":706.249,"end":721.03,"text":"反正我的目的就是希望說台鐵能夠順利把我這個地方能夠找到好的廠商把他招標出去希望台鐵多努力那也希望部長幫忙跟我跟董事長一起來助運好不好好沒問題好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:05:15 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10:17:19","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154888","gazette":{"lineno":304,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（10時5分）主席、大家好。我們請部長跟臺鐵董事長。"],["主席：好，請陳部長、杜董事長。"],["許委員智傑：部長好，謝謝部長上任隔天就到高雄去看那個月台門，昆澤委員跟我其實一直在要求，今年3月科工館站有人落軌死亡，所以我在4月18日質詢的時候也有要求要加裝月台門。"],["陳部長世凱：是，委員相當積極在爭取。"],["許委員智傑：然後板橋車站今年8月也有人落軌死亡。部長跟臺鐵代表去高雄車站看加裝的這一組，我們也感謝這部分能夠儘速完成。但是全臺灣有這麼多的月台，每年平均有24件落軌事件，從2018年到2023年有146件，其中就有29個人死亡，所以這件事情我們應該全面來思考檢討。剛剛聽昆澤委員問臺鐵的部分，目前也沒有基本的規劃哪裡先做、哪裡晚做，臺鐵是不是可以根據流量，比如說全臺灣火車站流量每日超過1,000還是多少，或者是哪一些比較小、有什麼安全的顧慮，應該是先把這個原則訂出來，然後儘速來規劃，逐步來實施，也希望把速度都加快，所以這個部分除了感謝之外，我們也希望臺鐵可以儘速訂出這個計畫並完成。","第二個，事實上我也經常要求，去年臺北便當節其實辦得還不錯，所以我有要求能夠考慮到高雄辦，在質詢行政院及部會的時候，我也曾經要求部長、院長及各部會首長，有什麼活動，要多想想高雄，以前都是集中在臺北，我們這幾年的要求，包括文博會也在高雄辦過了，包括第33屆金曲獎也在高雄辦了；最近還有一個還不錯的也跟部長鼓勵一下，我們高雄機場現在有米其林餐廳的美食，雖然不是米其林整間下來，但是已經有米其林的素食跟牛肉麵，讓高雄人可以嚐到米其林餐廳的口味，這也算是一個不錯的進步，也跟部長感謝一下。但是格局還是不夠，我們希望，包括高雄機場，我一直在要求，「半半施工」16年才能完成，目前整個高雄機場的2樓都是屬於行政，你可以看到臺北松山機場的美食其實真的是做得滿不錯的。機場現在甚至在16年完成之前，有沒有什麼樣比較好的規劃，讓這個機場可以享受到更好的、更舒適的空間跟配套？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在高雄機場的部分，因為現在配合半半施工的狀況，所以它的辦公空間或許沒有辦法弄出來，但是我知道委員希望的是它的美食空間跟整個旅客的體驗感受要提升，這個部分其實我們可以來做更積極的提升，另外，樓上的空間如果是辦公處所，有辦法空出來的我們就儘量空出來，讓旅客有更多的空間，可以有更好的體驗，這是第一點。"],["許委員智傑：所以其實可以思考一下，我的意思就是2樓如果可以用類似像松山機場這樣的模式來思考，現在辦公室當然沒有地方去，但是16年後，不可能永遠擺成這樣……"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們會朝這個方向，委員您剛才建議，我們會朝這個方向。"],["許委員智傑：你提早規劃其實才有辦法去處理。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["許委員智傑：要不然你都時間到了才說沒空間、沒空間，那永遠也沒空間。"],["陳部長世凱：其實旅客到機場通常都會比較早啦，所以要有一些空間讓他可以有比較好的、舒適的體驗，這個很重要，這個部分我們來努力。"],["許委員智傑：對啊，所以希望這裡可以有事先的規劃，部長跟局長可以有一些事先的規劃。"],["陳部長世凱：可以，我們來做相關的規劃。剛剛委員提到便當節的部分，臺鐵的便當節在明年5月就會到高雄，因為委員一直在交代跟要求，所以這個部分我們在明年5月就會完成，跟您報告。"],["許委員智傑：OK，我們希望可以多到高雄辦活動，把一些熱鬧的場合或者是比較可以看的、有規模的活動，大家都儘量思考到我們高雄。那先感謝啦，明年5月就可以看到便當節在我們高雄嘛！","局長正好上來，也跟部長感謝一下，最近我們高雄有好幾個新的班機也準備要開了，也謝謝民航局的努力，包括岡山、札幌，包括我們到曼谷、甚至到……"],["陳部長世凱：熊本、清邁。"],["許委員智傑：對，熊本、清邁……"],["陳部長世凱：還有富國島。"],["許委員智傑：這些都即將有機會可以開始飛，所以也謝謝民航局的努力，高雄的部分將來我們會一起來爭取，讓高雄的飛機可以更寬闊，謝謝部長。","再來就是臺鐵，其實剛才其昌有提到行人地獄跟行人安全，我一直想到太魯閣事件以及最近的土石流事件，部長，其實我們從科學來看應該不是很困難，今天有車子進入我們的系統、我們的攝影機有拍攝到，有土石流進入我們的這個……錄影機都錄到了卻沒有辦法辨識、警示、通知，都要靠人去處理，我覺得這個太不符合科學了！其實現在有很多AI辨識，基本上不困難，是不是可以要求臺鐵在攝影機辨識部分能夠加入AI的辨識系統？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分應該臺鐵都已經加入了。我們上次在花東所發生的事情、在6月的那次出軌狀況，其實它不是落石，那個時候是土石流從橋下面淹上來所以造成脫軌的狀況，這個部分我們也加入檢討。現在除了我們的監視系統──也就是CCTV的告警系統有監視的AI判別之外，更重要的其實是，它判別出來之後還是要有人力去看，它如果警示了還是要有人力去看、去判別，那才會比較精準，其實坦白說，落石部分的石塊大小跟形狀很難去評估……"],["許委員智傑：OK，這個簡單啦。"],["陳部長世凱：所以AI的部分還是有它的極限，但我們還是會加上人力……"],["許委員智傑：簡單跟部長報告一下，因為我有跟董事長聊過，他說AI還有很多學習的時間。"],["陳部長世凱：是，還要一段時間，沒有辦法這麼快。"],["許委員智傑：不、不、不！我要跟部長、董事長報告，有一些參數先進去就可以處理了，不用學那麼久啦。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們把設定進去的速度快一點。"],["許委員智傑：今天坦白講，多少面積的東西、固定的東西在那裡，辨識出來就可以警示，就是辨識跟警示可以一致，其實這個在AI的調整當中，參數有一些是要靠學習、有些是靠input進去給它的，所以我不認為要學習那麼久。現在有26處的立即危險有裝AI，我認為包括高風險的72處，AI這個部分趕快請專家來協助交通部跟臺鐵，這個我相信不困難、不需要花這麼長的時間，所以整個AI的規劃希望部長跟董事長再要求一下。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這個部分委員交代以後我們會趕快來評估。"],["許委員智傑：OK，麻煩了，因為AI沒那麼笨啦，AI可以幫我們做愈快、做愈多，不用在那邊等那麼久啦，好不好？這個部分請董事長也能夠再加強。","再來一個是對鳳山非常重要的空中鳳城，就是上一次有招標但沒有招標出去，很可惜啦，其實他不只罵臺鐵董事長而已，也罵我說：你身為鳳山的立委，怎麼臺鐵標不出去，都沒有去找廠商？事實上我們也很認真在找廠商，但是臺鐵裡面有幾個問題，細節我不講太多，包括我們的空間設計、動線設計、樓地板設計、手扶梯設計，當時在規劃的時候，你就應該去問一下潛在廠商內部要怎麼規劃，而不是你規劃出來之後，現在他來了卻覺得這個地方不適合、那個地方不適合、用得不合適。","所以現在臺鐵可能內部還要再請建築師重新布置，但是你重新布置之前我建議還是要找潛在廠商去談，看看他的需求是怎麼樣、你要怎麼樣調整他才覺得划算，因為賠錢的生意沒人要做，他覺得划算就來，之後你怎麼樣在公平、公正、公開、合理的情況之下能夠找到人進來，這部分我有拜託董事長親自操刀一下。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這有兩部分，一部分就是我們的招商說明會，我們在第二次招標之前還是有辦招商說明會，然後也有徵詢大家的意見；另外第二個就是，我們高階主管也會親自去拜訪潛在廠商，希望能夠真正了解他們的需求。然後我們預計在9月30號第二次公告，公告的內容我們可以配合招商的期程做最好的處理。"],["許委員智傑：希望董事長用一點心去找，我舉個例子，部長也聽一下，樓地板在五、六樓本來是要設計辦公室，現在百貨進去的話，樓地板承重跟原來商場的規格不同、不足；然後電影院設計在五、六樓的時候，那個地方廠商進去看一看說只能十幾個看電影而已，現在只有十幾個看電影就一定賠錢嘛，所以你在規劃的時候一開始就要規劃，包括手扶梯等等。我希望說臺鐵辛苦一點，能夠match雙方面的需求、能夠順利把它招商出去，至於該怎麼改的大家怎麼樣去分擔，反正我的目的就希望臺鐵能夠順利把我這個地方找到好的廠商招標出去，希望臺鐵多努力，也希望部長幫忙我跟董事長一起來注意，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員。","接下來有請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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於旅客的安全"},{"start":121.687,"end":130.644,"text":"不僅是關乎旅客的安全也彰顯我們道路交通公共服務的一個基本的責任跟要求杜董事長來簡單說明一下"},{"start":135.343,"end":152.408,"text":"市跟委員報告那這個設置月台門這案子我們有積極照期程在推動那預計在高雄市辦的這一組月台門我們預計是在年底要完成一個展示的框架"},{"start":152.768,"end":169.501,"text":"杜董事長這個稍微有延誤我們3月的時候就說公開設計以及要做發包但是到9月的時候才要正式的公開的一個招標那其實就有延誤了到年底能否完成設置以及相關的測試呢"},{"start":170.812,"end":197.83,"text":"這跟委員報告的確因為中間有大不多延誤兩個月左右的期程那是因為招標公告需要徵詢廠商進行修正但是後面的進度我們預計在10月底以前我們決標以後我們會協調廠商盡速的來加緊進行那就是以高雄來當初跟你所討論的就是以高雄來先做一個設置跟測試高雄車站的月台"},{"start":198.41,"end":215.991,"text":"那我們月台設置其實有三大問題我們第一個就是說施工期間旅客的安全以及相關運輸的安排那我們施作的天數跟施作的這樣的一個時段必須要做規劃來 董事長簡單說明一下"},{"start":216.331,"end":237.353,"text":"是,這個因為月台門他設置的地點是還在營運的地區對,因為你施工的話他相關月台的這樣一個範圍會更為縮小是那所以施工的天數跟施工的時段不是很重要的是,所以剛剛委員講的我們施工的這個天數跟施工的時段我們會聖密的去規劃"},{"start":238.214,"end":261.421,"text":"那基本上有一些工作是可以在白天進行但是有某些工作他必須在這個夜間封鎖這個車輛以後再來進行這個必須要更明確的規劃出來另外我們越台越台門的這樣一個設置的優先次序杜董事長你也知道我們台鐵有分特等站、一等站"},{"start":261.941,"end":275.16,"text":"二等站、三等站、檢疫站、招呼站當然不會說都要去做設置我們還是依照旅客的運量來做相關的一個規劃那現在高雄要先做那我們"},{"start":276.144,"end":298.398,"text":"旅客每天搭乘人數最多的像台北、像板橋、像桃園你的優先順序是怎樣來簡單說明一下跟委員報告這個優先順序當然我們是看那個現場我們月台情形跟人流做主要的依據但是因為我們另外還有一個月台提高工程這個也要綜合考量對"},{"start":299.498,"end":321.99,"text":"那相關的技術問題你也必須要去考量我們有很多的月台它是曲型的彎曲型的一個月台或是也有高低不一的這樣一個月台那我們相關的規劃是如何你現在到底除了高雄要先做這樣的一個測試跟裝置月台門之外你其他的車站有相關的規劃嗎現在正在規劃"},{"start":324.724,"end":351.292,"text":"政策規劃是什麼就是要看哪一些車站他是有比較需要有沒有基本的概念或規劃出來目前還沒有那必須要加緊相關的作業我提醒你像台北板橋、桃園它的每天搭乘人數都非常的多相關的安全必須要去注意另外我們相關越台門的跟列車的配合當然"},{"start":351.872,"end":352.532,"text":"我現在請教一下江董事長"},{"start":380.496,"end":405.703,"text":"姜董事長我們的高鐵其實這樣一個落軌的事件其實也多了好像在九月的時候今年九月在日前也有旅客來向我陳請他因為跌落月台他認為是燈光的一個問題那台鐵第一時間來跟我們聯繫要跟家屬來對話來瞭解相關的狀況那"},{"start":409.204,"end":414.084,"text":"我們高鐵的跌落事件2021年是有8件"},{"start":416.141,"end":441.836,"text":"那2022年是10件2023年16件那2024年到8月總共15件那這個旅客有8件物品有7件因為高鐵有分這個旅客的跌落或是物件的這樣一個掉落的狀況那台鐵在目前是沒有做物品掉落這樣的一個統計這個也要去做統計好不好杜董事長這個要去做規劃那"},{"start":444.045,"end":470.245,"text":"我們現在9月3號的時候這個江董事長在過去我也跟你討論過相關越台門的這樣的一個狀況那高鐵相當有計畫在9月3號就已經表示為了提升後車安全跟營運的效率要全線11個站都要去施作相關的越台門的這樣的一個計畫來讓你簡單說明一下"},{"start":472.978,"end":488.924,"text":"好,台灣高鐵就是台北站已經有越台門但是那個門還要寬度要做修改因為配合新車的導入那另外17個站已經公開招標明天中午截止投標那從"},{"start":491.585,"end":517.337,"text":"新竹站跟板橋站優先施作十一個站啦 不是十七個站啦十一個站 對十一 這兩個站先優先施作全部最後是2028年江董事長我請教一下你們要優先施作的車站現在是預訂板橋跟新竹嗎是的那為什麼是板橋跟新竹那杜董事長 江董事長你也清楚了"},{"start":518.197,"end":537.695,"text":"高鐵也是有跟台鐵一樣它的站有分相關的級數我們有特等站有一等站跟二等站三個級數那板橋跟新竹都應該是屬於一等站那特等站除了台北已經有之外台中跟左營都沒有做預先的一個規劃嗎?有"},{"start":539.196,"end":549.142,"text":"因為新竹站因為風特別大那旅客的行李箱以及旅客常常會掉落到月台所以我們是優先要做新竹"},{"start":550.845,"end":566.893,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":578.939,"end":597.721,"text":"台鐵跟高鐵你有什麼基本的要求跟計畫?是相關的約定還蠻我希望能夠儘速完成我在上任的第一天當天剛好前一天啦前一天剛好發生台中車站有一位民眾跌落軌道所以在我就任的那一天我就直接到台中站去給那個副站長鼓勵"},{"start":598.382,"end":626.2,"text":"那同時我也要求台鐵公司在針對這個月台門的部分要加速來設置那目前設置的部分是以高雄為先優先做事辦的方式一個月台先來做那我希望能夠加速因為我看到的是台鐵目前落軌的狀況也還蠻高那高鐵的部分當然相對沒有像台鐵這麼多不過有些地段確實是人一多就蠻危險像去年的中秋節在台中的這個高鐵站"},{"start":626.9,"end":642.159,"text":"我們就看到月台上蠻多的人擠爆了那是一個非常危險的事情所以這個部分我希望台鐵公司跟高鐵公司都能夠加速來進行那尤其委員剛剛所指示的就是說針對特等站也就是說人潮特別多的地方我覺得這個要優先來處理"},{"start":643.26,"end":665.077,"text":"好 最後 稍微不好意思 我再借一分鐘那杜董事長跟姜董事長我們針對在月台門還沒有在設置之前那在尖峰時刻相關的旅客擁擠在月台之上那相關的這樣一個路軌的事件我們是不能讓它發生我們有什麼做基本的一個規範跟處理來 先請姜董事長"},{"start":665.777,"end":684.145,"text":"基本上我們對於人潮湧到月台的人數會做疏導跟管控那另外月台上也有保全人員以及帳戶人員隨時在巡視跟呼籲還有檢查等等高鐵這個部分好像他的人力比較足一點那台鐵的部分呢"},{"start":685.306,"end":708.762,"text":"對,跟委員報告,台鐵的部分我們還是會加派人力尤其是我們看到那個越台容量比較小一點的車站那這個車站我們會研議再來加派人力那杜董事長我最後再提醒你2022年的時候我就提醒你相關越台旅客掉落的這樣的一個不幸的事件那20"},{"start":710.723,"end":732.246,"text":"二三跟二零二四都還是這個競速還是非常的多了責任非常重的這個要去做全力的一個防範在玉台門設置的流程相關的完成之前相關的這個旅客的宣導跟規範以及疏導志工的服務等等這個都必須要加強保障旅客的安全"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:52:43 - 10:04:58","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154887","gazette":{"lineno":240,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時52分）謝謝召委。請陳部長，還有杜董事長、高鐵江董事長、陳文瑞局長。"],["主席：請陳部長、杜董、陳局長。"],["李委員昆澤：部長及杜董事長，我想不管是部長或者是臺鐵，最重要的責任及工作就是保障旅客的安全。現在臺鐵2023年的日均量（每天平均搭乘人數）大概是六十萬左右，到今（2024）年1月到9月的日均量已經提升到64萬人次，這麼多人搭乘臺鐵，但是臺鐵月台跌落事件，就是意外跌落的，像2023年意外落軌有18件，今（2024）年已經達到25件；蓄意跳下月台的這種不幸事件，2023年有17件，2024年有10件。杜董事長應該記得在2022年11月30號交通委員會，我針對月台跌落事件特別提出質詢，並要求臺鐵研議設置月台門，相關的設計規劃，臺鐵也在著實的進行，2024年3月也向社會宣布預計要做出相關的設計及發包等等工作。在這邊我要先提醒杜董事長跟陳部長，對於設置月台門、對於旅客安全，這不僅關乎旅客安全，也彰顯道路交通公共服務的基本責任及要求，杜董事長來簡單說明一下。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，設置月台門的案子，我們有積極照期程在推動，在高雄市試辦的這組月台門預計是在年底要完成展示的框架。"],["李委員昆澤：杜董事長，這個有稍微延誤，3月就說要公開設計及發包，但是到9月才要正式公開招標，其實就有延誤了，到年底能否完成設置及相關測試呢？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，的確中間有差不多延誤兩個月左右的期程，那是因為招標公告需要徵詢廠商進行修正，但是後面的進度，我們預計在10月底以前，決標以後，我們會協調廠商儘速來加緊進行。"],["李委員昆澤：就是當初跟你所討論的，以高雄先做設置跟測試。"],["陳部長世凱：高雄車站的月台。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["李委員昆澤：月台設置其實有三大問題，第一個，施工期間旅客安全與相關運輸安排，施作天數及施作時段必須要規劃，請董事長簡單說明一下。"],["杜董事長微：因為月台門設置的地點是還在營運的地區。"],["李委員昆澤：對，因為施工的話，相關月台的範圍會更為縮小，所以施工天數與施工時段是很重要的。"],["杜董事長微：是，所以剛剛委員講的，施工天數跟施工時段，我們會縝密地去規劃，基本上，有一些工作可以在白天進行，但是有某些工作必須在夜間封鎖車輛以後再來進行。"],["李委員昆澤：這個必須要有更明確的規劃出來。"],["杜董事長微：這個我們有排程。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，月台門設置的優先次序，杜董事長你也知道，臺鐵有分特等站、一等站、二等站、三等站、簡易站、招呼站，當然不會都要設置，還是要依照旅客運量來做相關規劃。現在高雄要先做，旅客每天搭乘人數最多的像臺北、像板橋、像桃園，你的優先順序是怎樣，請簡單說明一下。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這個優先順序當然我們是看現場月台情形跟人流做主要的依據，但是因為我們另外還有一個月台提高工程，這個也要綜合考量。"],["李委員昆澤：對，相關的技術問題你也必須要考量，有很多月台是曲型的、彎曲型的月台，或是也有高低不一的月台，你們相關的規劃是如何？現在到底除了高雄要先做這樣的測試跟裝置月台門之外，其他車站有相關的規劃嗎？"],["杜董事長微：現在正在規劃。"],["李委員昆澤：正在規劃什麼？"],["杜董事長微：就是要看哪一些車站比較需要……"],["李委員昆澤：有沒有基本的概念或規劃出來？"],["杜董事長微：目前還沒有。"],["李委員昆澤：那必須要加緊相關的作業。"],["杜董事長微：我們正在做。"],["李委員昆澤：我提醒你，像臺北、板橋、桃園，每天搭乘人數都非常多，相關的安全必須要去注意。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，相關月台門與列車配合，當然新車現在都來了，臺鐵車種也非常多，每個月台的月台門位置都不一，所以高雄是採取降落式的規劃，相關月台門系統測試及司機員訓練都必須要納入計畫。"],["杜董事長微：好，這個我們會。"],["李委員昆澤：現在請教一下江董事長。"],["江董事長耀宗：委員早。"],["李委員昆澤：江董事長，高鐵這樣的落軌事件其實也多，好像在9月的時候……"],["江董事長耀宗：今年到現在為止有8件。"],["李委員昆澤：對，今年9月也有旅客來向我陳情，他因為跌落月台，他認為是燈光的問題，高鐵第一時間來跟我們聯繫說要跟家屬對話來了解相關狀況。","高鐵的跌落事件2021年有8件，2022年是10件……"],["江董事長耀宗：旅客是2件，物品是6件。"],["李委員昆澤：2023年16件，2024年到8月總共15件。"],["江董事長耀宗：對，旅客有8件，物品有7件。"],["李委員昆澤：對，因為高鐵有分旅客跌落或是物件掉落的狀況，臺鐵目前沒有做物品掉落的統計，這個也要去統計，好不好？杜董事長，這個要去規劃。","江董事長，過去我也跟你討論過相關月台門的狀況，高鐵相當有計畫，在9月3號就已經表示，為了提升候車安全及營運效率，全線11個站都要來施作月台門的相關計畫，請你簡單說明一下。"],["江董事長耀宗：好，臺灣高鐵的臺北站已經有月台門，但是那個門的寬度還要修改，因為配合新車的導入；另外17個站已經公開招標，明天中午截止投標，從新竹站跟板橋站優先施作……"],["李委員昆澤：11個站，不是17個站。"],["江董事長耀宗：11個站。"],["李委員昆澤：對。"],["江董事長耀宗：11個站。這兩個站先優先施作，全部完成是在2028年第三季。"],["李委員昆澤：江董事長，我請教一下，你們要優先施作的車站現在是預定板橋跟新竹嘛？"],["江董事長耀宗：是的。"],["李委員昆澤：那為什麼是板橋跟新竹？江董事長，你也清楚，高鐵跟臺鐵一樣，它的站有分級數，有特等站、一等站跟二等站，共三個級數，板橋跟新竹應該都是屬於一等站，特等站除了臺北已經有了之外，臺中跟左營都沒有做預先的規劃嗎？"],["江董事長耀宗：有，因為新竹站風特別大，旅客的行李箱以及旅客常常會掉落到月台，所以我們優先要做新竹的部分；板橋因為它是曲形月台，旅客也曾經跌落，有這樣的影響，所以我們是選定這兩個車站優先施作。"],["李委員昆澤：預計2028年會全部完成嗎？"],["江董事長耀宗：第三季，是的。"],["李委員昆澤：好，謝謝江董事長。"],["江董事長耀宗：謝謝委員。"],["李委員昆澤：杜董事長跟江董事長，旅客的安全真的是你們最重要的工作跟責任。","請陳世凱部長簡單說明一下，對於相關的旅客安全，針對臺鐵跟高鐵，你有什麼基本的要求跟計畫？"],["陳部長世凱：是，相關的月台門我希望能夠儘速完成啦，我在上任的第一天，前一天剛好發生臺中車站有一位民眾跌落軌道，所以在我就任的那一天就直接到臺中站去給那位副站長鼓勵，同時我也要求臺鐵公司針對月台門的部分要加速設置。目前設置的部分是以高雄為優先做試辦的方式，一個月台先來做，我希望能夠加速，因為我看到臺鐵目前落軌的狀況還滿高，高鐵的部分當然相對沒有像臺鐵這麼多，不過有些地段確實是人一多就滿危險的，像去年的中秋節，在臺中高鐵站我們就看到月台上滿多的人擠爆了，那是一個非常危險的事情，所以這個部分我希望臺鐵公司跟高鐵公司都能夠加速來進行。尤其委員剛剛指示針對特等站，也就是人潮特別多的地方，我覺得這個要優先來處理。"],["李委員昆澤：好。最後，召委不好意思，我再借1分鐘。杜董事長跟江董事長，在月台門還沒有設置之前，尖峰時刻旅客在擁擠的月台上，相關的落軌事件我們不能讓它發生，這部分有做什麼基本的規範跟處理？先請江董事長。"],["江董事長耀宗：基本上我們對於人潮湧到月台的人數會做疏導跟管控，另外，月台上也有保全人員以及站務人員隨時在巡視跟呼籲，還有檢查等等。謝謝。"],["李委員昆澤：好，高鐵的部分好像人力比較足一點，那臺鐵的部分呢？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，臺鐵的部分，我們還是會加派人力，尤其是針對月台容量比較小一點的車站，這個部分的車站我們會研議再來加派人力。"],["李委員昆澤：好。杜董事長，我最後再提醒你，2022年的時候，我就提醒你相關旅客掉落月台的不幸事件，2023年跟2024年的件數都還是非常多，責任非常重大，這個要去全力防範，在月台門設置完成之前，相關的旅客宣導跟規範、疏導以及志工的服務等等，這個都必須要加強，保障旅客的安全。"],["杜董事長微：好，安全維護我們來加強。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員。","接下來由許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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20年前我們一起在立法院打拚20年後你現在已經高升為交通部的部長"},{"start":28.822,"end":50.863,"text":"我聽到這個消息一方面為你感到高興因為我相信這是二十年來你自己的努力得到賴總統然後這個卓院長的這個賞賜肯定所以才會指派這個任務給你那第二個我也感到為你感到一絲的沉重這個交通部加大越大"},{"start":51.894,"end":66.959,"text":"要當部長不容易啦這個所管轄的範圍太廣你想陸海空到觀光然後各式各樣交通部下屬所有的事業單位所以一個部長要能夠全懂不容易"},{"start":67.901,"end":93.578,"text":"你上任之後我也看到一些媒體的朋友或者在野黨對你有一些挑戰包括說你是不是交通的專業我在交通委員會算資深了在立法院也差不多將近20年了在我看法交通部基本上所謂的專不專業他第一個問題大家問的應該是說是不是交通本科"},{"start":95.202,"end":109.967,"text":"那交通部部長大概我算了一下應該接近有一半任期都不是在交通本科的部長底下在主政但是交通的專業其實跟本科不一定"},{"start":112.97,"end":130.842,"text":"我講這個話不是要鼓勵你或者替你講話而是我要告訴你說交通部長在我的這麼多年的任內看交通部長要做好要被大家肯定叫做專業我統結八個字叫做謙卑傾聽認真做事交通部部長範圍太廣了"},{"start":135.396,"end":140.715,"text":"有沒有認真傾聽因為你的業務太廣你一個人無法每一樣你都很了解"},{"start":141.516,"end":168.898,"text":"我請教部長你上任之後所有業務單位你都請他們來跟你做過這個簡報了嗎?報告委員所有的業務單位都跟我做過簡報那我也很積極的在跟各個業務單位在做溝通那除此之外我也做行動的管理也就是說到各個地方到各局處去該看的部分其實我們也都看了那一些工會我們也都接觸過也都理解說所有所屬單位的工會的心聲OK"},{"start":169.438,"end":183.383,"text":"這個叫做內部傾聽每一個部會這些文官都是從基層一路上來他們有他們的專業所以做部長一定要了解每一個業務單位這些文官去尊重他們、傾聽他們專業的意見"},{"start":185.604,"end":205.278,"text":"二、你拜訪過立法院所有交通委員會的委員沒有?報告委員每一位委員我都拜訪過了有一些非交通委員會的我也拜訪過了那你知道交通委員的委員基本上都是立法院相對比較資深的委員是我曉得他們都對交通的領域有一定程度的認識跟專業是我考你一下好了"},{"start":207.028,"end":231.203,"text":"在鐵道建設裡面本席對台中有三樣我已經講過非常多年了你覺得是哪三個哪三項台中的捷運橘線以及台中的捷運藍線那還有一條就是當時我在擔任議員的時候跟委員一起在努力的台中的這個台鐵海線的雙軌高架化好那主席魯明哲委員他最重視交通建設是什麼"},{"start":231.783,"end":231.883,"text":"主席,對嗎?對,好,謝謝。"},{"start":254.98,"end":281.462,"text":"因為我不知道你我沒有開關注你關心什麼但我的部分是對啦所以我也請教一下看你的部分對不對齁好這個就是做一個部長要傾聽立法院對的事情不論他什麼顏色啦該做的事情因為交通建設沒有顏色嘛該做的事情就是要去做而每一個委員在他的轄區的這個領域當中他一定對一些特別事項你要去關心第三個要傾聽民意啦"},{"start":282.504,"end":301.341,"text":"這個未來會有很多的交通建設跟交通政策的提出他會跟人民直接相關如果交通部沒有認真去傾聽民意這個部長得不到民眾的支持所以這個叫做認真傾聽接下來你就要做事啦就你傾聽完之後你就要做事"},{"start":302.282,"end":329.725,"text":"重大的交通建設進度到哪裡該怎麼進行我想這些就是部長你要帶領著所有交通部的團隊去做的這個是我給你的我看到你沉重壓力我給你八個字的祝福啦我希望這八個字能夠讓你當一個專業的部長那考驗才剛開始啦考驗才剛開始接下來呢我想這個我要來問一下部長我想你也知道"},{"start":330.925,"end":357.547,"text":"對於這個行人地域本席長期以來都一直非常關心這個惡名何時可以移除最近台中又發生了一個這個東海大學的女同學這麼青春年華的歲月走在斑馬線上面竟然被公車念壁我看了她的媽媽的一些發言包括昨天的這個講話我其實非常的難過"},{"start":359.107,"end":377.959,"text":"而且這個剛好也是我東海大學的學妹媽媽說希望不要這個她的犧牲她女兒的犧牲啊能夠是有意義的那媽媽有大愛啊說實在話我覺得很感動但是我們站在立法委員監督的立場"},{"start":379.448,"end":392.478,"text":"本席還是必須要把我的一些看法跟我們目前的一些作為我們還是要做一些檢討而這個檢討一定要針對原因針對一些數據本席列了幾個你看看這個你看看這個數據本席在今年五月我就講過台中市"},{"start":404.471,"end":430.448,"text":"是傷亡啊這個相對於其他縣市來講我們算是最嚴重的啦特別在直轄市裡面你看喔各縣市113年1到6月30日到6月之前啊你看台中市啊是28人死亡人數比較去年同期還增加了7人下一頁"},{"start":433.839,"end":460.32,"text":"這個我們交通部跟內政部跟地方政府來合作要盤點這個所謂優先改善的路口這個包括內政部本席也提了這個內政部也編了預算這個中央重視嘛所以也編了預算來改善這些危險路口但這些危險路口要跟地方政府來配合但是你看看這個中央編了錢也有了政策希望來把這個行人地域解決啦"},{"start":461.641,"end":479.191,"text":"但是你看臺中市政府63處只改了4處進度實在是緩慢而且比起其他縣市你看我們這個落後那麼多臺中市到8月僅改善4處是直轄市最低的來下一頁"},{"start":481.462,"end":509.053,"text":"那你再來看看這個以10萬人死傷人數來統計你看這個台中市3405這個也是難看的數字所以本席在上一次就是在今年5月的質詢的時候我就講了當時的李部長跟交通部的同仁告訴本席說會督促台中市政府請台中市政府提出檢討報告來讓我們看一下檢討報告是什麼"},{"start":514.097,"end":539.964,"text":"二、檢討報告叫用路人普遍不守法用路人普遍不守法也就是行人的問題啦不是市政府改善這些問題再來人口數持續成長機動車輛持續增加所以呢基本上我們這個市政府啊是放牛般的市政府啦這樣的一個狀況所以再發生了"},{"start":541.82,"end":570.202,"text":"這一次的這個不幸事件就讓本席覺得交通部對於放牛班的學生不能只是上一次本席還拜託你們說多多幫忙台中市政府多多協助台中市政府讓放牛班的學生可不可以好一點但是我看光鼓勵支持幫助這個是不夠的台中市還是一樣依然顧我所以我們台中市市民行的安全"},{"start":571.38,"end":586.451,"text":"像這些學童走斑馬線還遇到這樣的問題表示這個放牛班的學生不受教部長除了協助去年除了今年5月我講的協助幫助之外"},{"start":587.762,"end":604.154,"text":"交通部是不是對於不只台中市,當然台中最嚴重啦就其他相對改善慢、置之不理對於用路行人安全的投入資源過少關注度過少的這些縣市政府要不要採取一些比較"},{"start":607.142,"end":621.538,"text":"強硬一點的手段或者有一點處分型的手段不然放牛班的孩子整天放在宿治那裡本席叫你們去問你們問回來還是這些都是別人的問題都跟市政府沒有任何改善作為"},{"start":623.184,"end":643.42,"text":"報告委員一方面我們當然會主動協助像您所交代的我們會主動協助台中市政府在交通安全上面的改善的部分那二方面針對成績比較不好的一些縣市一方面我們在這個網路上我們會公布這個數字讓縣市政府有壓力那二方面其實我們行政院也有一個道安工作彙報"},{"start":644.281,"end":665.4,"text":"那我們會請他們來做專案報告那昨天確實台中市政府已經來行政院做過專案報告了也就是在匯報的過程要說明說他們到底未來要怎麼樣改善台中市的交通那這個部分管考的部分我們會繼續嚴格來督促都是活生生的人命特別像這種十幾歲、二十歲的孩子"},{"start":666.465,"end":690.468,"text":"遇到這種不幸我相信這個不分朝野不分政黨大家其實都很難過所以我們能夠做的是怎麼在政策督促要求政府的角色是什麼政府的角色怎麼去要求民間這些客運公司怎麼營造一個安全的環境其實這個都是我們責無旁貸的事情一起加油啦謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:40:55 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09:52:28","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154886","gazette":{"lineno":200,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（9時40分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：好，陳部長。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員早。"],["蔡委員其昌：時間過得很快，20年前我們一起在立法院打拼。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我是您的助理。"],["蔡委員其昌：20年後，你現在已經高升為交通部的部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：我聽到這個消息，一方面為你感到高興，因為我相信這是20年來你自己的努力得到賴總統、卓院長的賞識、肯定，所以才會指派這個任務給你。第二個、我也為你感到一絲的沉重，交通部家大業大，要當部長不容易，所管轄的範圍太廣，你想陸海空到觀光，然後各式各樣交通部下屬所有的事業單位，所以一個部長要能夠全懂不容易。你上任之後，我也看到一些媒體的朋友或者在野黨對你有一些挑戰，包括說你是不是交通的專業，我在交通委員會算資深了啦！在立法院也差不多將近20年，在我的看法，交通部基本上所謂的專不專業，大家問的第一個問題應該是說是不是交通本科啦！交通部部長，大概我算了一下，應該接近有一半任期都不是在交通本科的部長底下主政……"],["陳部長世凱：是，差不多一半……"],["蔡委員其昌：但是交通的專業其實跟本科不一定截然有關係，我講這個話不是要鼓勵你或者替你講話，而是我要告訴你說，交通部長在我這麼多年的任內看，交通部長要做好、要被大家肯定叫做專業，我統結8個字，叫做謙卑傾聽、認真做事。交通部部長範圍太廣了，有沒有認真傾聽，因為你的業務太廣，你一個人無法每一樣你都很了解。我請教部長，你上任之後，所有業務單位你都請他們來跟你做過簡報了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，所有的業務單位都跟我做過簡報，我也很積極地在跟各個業務單位溝通，除此之外我也做行動的管理，也就是說到各個地方、到各局處去，該看的部分其實我們也都看了，一些工會我們也都接觸過，也都理解所有所屬單位工會的心聲。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，這個叫做內部傾聽啦！每一個部會這些文官都是從基層一路上來，他們有他們的專業，所以做部長一定要了解每一個業務單位這些文官，去尊重他們、傾聽他們專業的意見。第二個、你拜訪過立法院所有的交通委員會的委員沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，每一位委員我都拜訪過了。"],["蔡委員其昌：拜訪過了。"],["陳部長世凱：有一些非交通委員會的我也拜訪過了。"],["蔡委員其昌：那你知道交通委員會的委員基本上都是立法院相對比較資深的委員。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我曉得。"],["蔡委員其昌：他們都對交通的領域有一定程度的認識跟專業。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：我考你一下好了，在鐵道建設裡面，本席對臺中有3樣我已經講過非常多年了，你覺得是哪3項？"],["陳部長世凱：臺中的捷運橘線以及臺中的捷運藍線，還有一條就是當時我在擔任議員的時候跟委員一起努力的，臺中臺鐵海線的雙軌高架化。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，那主席魯明哲委員最重視的交通建設是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：當然機捷的號誌系統是魯委員非常關心的，另外針對機捷延伸到中壢車站的部分，魯委員也相當關心，還有桃園的綠線延伸到中壢車站，當然現在桃園在進行鐵路地下化的工程，每一項魯委員都非常地關心。"],["蔡委員其昌：主席，對嗎？"],["主席：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，好，謝謝，因為我不知道你……我沒有太關注你關心什麼，但我的部分是對，所以我也請教一下看你的部分對不對。好，這個就是做一個部長要傾聽立法院，對的事情，不論他什麼顏色，該做的事情，因為交通建設沒有顏色，該做的事情就是要去做，而每一個委員在他的轄區的領域當中，他一定對一些特別事項……你要去關心。","第三個要傾聽民意，未來會有很多交通建設跟交通政策的提出，它會跟人民直接相關，如果交通部沒有認真去傾聽民意，這個部長得不到民眾的支持，所以這個叫做認真傾聽。接下來你就要做事了，就是你傾聽完之後你就要做事，重大的交通建設進度到哪裡、該怎麼進行，我想這些就是部長要帶領著所有交通部的團隊去做的，這個是我看到你沉重壓力，我給你的8個字的祝福。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：我希望這8個字能夠讓你當一個專業的部長，考驗才剛開始。接下來我要來問一下，部長，我想你也知道對於行人地獄，本席長期以來都一直非常關心，這個惡名何時可以移除？最近臺中又發生一個東海大學的女同學，這麼青春年華的歲月，走在斑馬線上面，竟然被公車輾斃，我看了他媽媽的一些發言，包括昨天的講話，我其實非常難過，而且剛好也是我東海大學的學妹，媽媽說希望他女兒的犧牲能夠有意義，媽媽有大愛，說實在話我覺得很感動。但是我們站在立法委員監督的立場，本席還是必須要把我的一些看法跟我們目前的一些作為，我們還是要做一些檢討，而這個檢討一定要針對原因，針對一些數據。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席列了幾個，你看看這個數據，本席在今年5月就講過，臺中市的傷亡相對於其他縣市來講，我們算是最嚴重的，特別在直轄市裡面，你看各縣市113年1到6月30日，到6月之前，臺中市的死亡人數是28人，比較去年同期還增加了7人。交通部跟內政部跟地方政府來合作，要盤點所謂優先改善的路口，包括內政部本席也提了，內政部也編了預算，中央重視，所以也編了預算來改善這些危險路口。這些路口要跟地方政府來配合，中央編了錢，也有了政策，希望把行人地獄解決，但是你看臺中市政府63處只改了4處，進度實在是緩慢，而且比起其他縣市，你看我們落後那麼多，臺中市到8月僅改善4處，是直轄市最低的。你再來看看，以10萬人死傷人數來統計，你看臺中市3,405，這個也是難看的數字，所以本席在上一次，就是在今年5月的質詢的時候我就講了，當時的李部長跟交通部的同仁告訴本席，說會督促臺中市政府，請臺中市政府提出檢討報告。我們看一下檢討報告是什麼，檢討報告叫用路人普遍不守法，也就是行人的問題啦！不是市政府改善這些問題；再來，人口數持續成長，機動車輛持續增加，所以基本上，我們這個市政府是放牛班的市政府，這樣的狀況，所以再發生了這次不幸的事件，就讓本席覺得交通部對於放牛班的學生不能只是……上次本席還拜託你們多多幫忙臺中市政府、多多協助臺中市政府，讓放牛班的學生可不可以好一點，但是我看光鼓勵、支持、幫助是不夠的，臺中市還是一樣依然故我，所以臺中市市民行的安全，像這些學童走斑馬線還遇到這樣的問題，表示這個放牛班學生不受教嘛！部長，除了今年5月我講的協助、幫助之外，交通部對於……不只臺中市，當然臺中最嚴重，就其他相對改善慢、置之不理、對於行人用路安全投入的資源過少、關注度過少的這些縣市政府，要不要採取一些比較強硬一點的手段或者處分型的手段？不然放牛班的孩子整天放著數字在那裡，本席叫你們去問，問回來還是這些都是別人的問題，市政府沒有任何改善作為。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，一方面當然像您所交代的，我們會主動協助臺中市政府在交通安全上面改善；針對成效比較不好的一些縣市，一方面在網路上我們會公布數字，讓縣市政府有壓力，二方面其實行政院也有道安工作會報，我們會請他們來做專案報告。昨天確實臺中市政府已經來行政院做過專案報告了，在會報的過程要說明他們到底未來要怎麼樣改善臺中市的交通，管考的部分，我們會繼續嚴格來督促。"],["蔡委員其昌：都是活生生的人命，特別像這種十幾、二十歲的孩子遇到這種不幸，我相信這個不分朝野、不分政黨，大家其實都很難過，所以我們能夠做的是怎麼在政策督促、要求，政府的角色是什麼？政府的角色怎麼去要求這些民間客運公司、如何營造一個安全的環境，其實都是我們責無旁貸的事情。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：一起加油，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌委員。","接下來有請李昆澤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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那我們後邊我們再請交通部那個內政部再提供你剛剛所說的那個圖示因為對於圖示大家確實現在還有不一樣的看法所以我們優先會起點的時候有圖示然後也有文字那終點的部分我們現在先用文字"},{"start":306.262,"end":329.819,"text":"中點是不是還是考慮事實上是圖示大家比較清楚因為我們還是要考慮其他外國人來到這邊的時候要怎麼去理解我們希望在年底之前大家凝聚共識因為那個圖示的部分大家建議比較多所以我們現在先用文字那未來如果要加圖示是可以再加的那是不是到時候10月1號要上路如果有排面這樣做的話是不是浪費公堂可能要去考慮啊"},{"start":330.923,"end":354.976,"text":"下面的文字上面未來可以再加圖示那個沒有問題不會浪費公帑因為你即便未來有圖示下面我們文字還是建議要寫上去所以希望我們盡速而且我認為要跟公民團體跟專家學者充分的溝通不是一意孤行沒問題沒問題那再來我想問部長如果今天你開車準備左轉的時候你會停在哪一個地方是A還是B如果是我會停在A"},{"start":359,"end":371.325,"text":"那相信部長應該隨時有掌握我們的新修法的條文的狀況所以你才會回答是A可是我也要問進一步問部長說如果這個車道前方都是車停在"},{"start":374.06,"end":388.685,"text":"看得到對象來車嗎?看不到的話怎麼辦呢?如果確定對象沒車可是我開到B處的時候呢結果對象車道又出現車的話那我是不是就要在那邊暫停呢?那可是來下一個喔"},{"start":389.545,"end":401.786,"text":"英國事實上是針對於這樣私有相關的法規那如果轉彎的時候可以先進入到黃網線去等待我們路權比較大的直行車通道所以我不知道台灣為什麼"},{"start":403.462,"end":433.19,"text":"要去執行一定要選擇事上是用A的方式下一頁所以在新的法規裡邊剛剛講的那如果我真的不小心看到前面的時候那個暫停所以在交通部在9月23號的會議當中那依舊維持原本有爭議的條文內容那新增禁止在環網線當中去暫停的規定那當然據說這是警政署堅持的可是修法的版本當中"},{"start":433.57,"end":445.095,"text":"不僅沒有定義何謂叫做暫停這樣的規定也會讓跟先進國家的規範是不同的所以除了背離實際的駕駛的情境也有可能產生行車的安全"},{"start":446.506,"end":472.567,"text":"來 下一頁所以在這邊我主張是不是可以儘速完善我們的標誌的規則來修正可是要多方參考國際的規範專家學者的跟團體的意見第二個能夠有效的落實應該儘速訂定新任遊閒區的相對應的規範那所以是不是這兩個觀點那也麻煩部長兩個禮拜內回覆我相關的書面意見可以嗎好 感謝委員沒問題好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":478.617,"end":478.638,"text":"二、"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:15:58 - 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337.731,"text":"例如說公共運輸怎麼加強或者科技園區裡面有沒有可能會有接駁車之類的讓大家盡量不要開這麼多車就高速公路短時間這五六年還是要想辦法去解決對很好對這些配套還是要給我們那除了羊頭高架當然我們竹北交流道那個已經是20年的這個問題"},{"start":339.491,"end":352.084,"text":"所以我想現在也應該在進行中所以我們希望陳部長上來能夠非常的重視然後能夠全力的支持讓我們能夠加速進行"},{"start":354.827,"end":371.728,"text":"那最後本席要特別提就是說我們的不管高速公路、快速道路或甚至鐵道周邊的住戶常常會受到噪音的干擾那像我們新竹就有一些部分路段的民眾不斷的反應"},{"start":372.529,"end":390.68,"text":"而且那個噪音的分貝值已經都已經達標了已經達標了那有些就算沒有達標的部長有些就算沒有達標的比如說你72分貝可是我只測到60或者是65那我要給部長一個概念就是"},{"start":391.46,"end":406.773,"text":"你測這個分貝數沒達標但是他長期在這種環境下現代人是受不了的那本席要特別跟您講在休會期間我們特別去會堪當地的住戶說那個噪音大到他養的豬都不生了"},{"start":407.293,"end":426.558,"text":"你看連動物豬都不能生他都生不出來了動植物都受影響了所以我們希望交通部這種我們民意代表反映而且地方上已經受苦連連除了豬不生我們的民眾人啊人的感受是什麼他常常早上"},{"start":427.538,"end":443.312,"text":"以為車子撞到他家了你看聲音有多大他以為他家被車子撞上來了所以我們希望我們提出來的交通部要重視能夠盡快的給我們這個隔音牆的補助可以嗎我們來朝正向來討論好不好"},{"start":445.134,"end":464.351,"text":"要苦民所苦啊其實你看連豬都受不了到生不出來了你看人每天住在那裡所以我們這一塊我們要請部長還有我們這個這裡面當然可能是公路局因為那個我去會刊的是快速道路麻煩一定要重視我們跟委員一起來努力好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:16:18 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14:24:06","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154910","gazette":{"lineno":1549,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（14時16分）謝謝主席，本席有請陳部長。"],["主席：好，交通部陳部長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我想召委您也辛苦了，我們魯召委還有陳部長今天從早上一直到現在，我想我應該是最後一個，我質詢完，你們大家就可以好好休息了。","陳部長您剛履新，我們的賴總統跟卓院長對您都深具信心，我本身也是。"],["陳部長世凱：感謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以很希望您這個交通部長可以好好地做久一點，因為我上任才幾個月，半年左右，我們遇三個交通部長。首先您剛上任的時候曾經有說過9月起要加強執法，要增加見警率。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席首先請教您，您知道我國公路總里程是多少公里嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：總里程？"],["徐委員欣瑩：公路，我們的公路，總里程是多少公里？"],["陳部長世凱：五千多公里，五千三。"],["徐委員欣瑩：包含國道，就是省道、縣道、市道……"],["陳局長文瑞：對、對、對，國道兩萬多……"],["徐委員欣瑩：兩萬多，2萬1,839.6公里，所以如果按照部長所說的，要達到您增加見警率的目標效益，您看要多少警力，有沒有估算過？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我之前其實對於行人道安的部分，我剛剛早上也都有說明過，我其實講的方法是很完整，這個只是其中一環，我說在工程面要窮盡一切的可能性去改善工程面的部分，在道路的上面改善。第二、針對交通安全觀念的教育跟宣導，我們必須要落實而且下去做……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是針對見警率。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒有錯，第三，我才是在說執法的部分，執法有科技執法，當然也有見警率的部分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["陳部長世凱：而見警率的部分，當時交通部的幕僚們給我的建議是這個樣子，他們給的建議是說，在高度風險的地方可能有需要增加見警率，我們不是全面，我們人力必然是不足，這是第一個，第二個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！對嘛！所以這可能是文字的誤解、說法的誤解。"],["陳部長世凱：我早上有說，蠻遺憾的，大家只看那個媒體報導的標題，但我裡面講的內文沒有人在看，只看標題會以為我只講見警率，但實際上我不是這樣說的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以您剛剛也有提到，現在已經進入AI時代了。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以連手機都有AI，所以本席在這裡，你一定要調整對見警率的思維。"],["陳部長世凱：這個沒有問題，如果委員覺得說增加見警率不會是未來處理行人道安的一個好方法，未來我們交通部就不講見警率的部分，因為坦白說，執法這個層面不是交通部該做的，也不是我們能做的，是內政部警政署做的，未來這個建議就儘量……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為您上任說了，大家就會去追這個，好，那沒關係，所以現在警力不足了，所以在交通部分要能夠加強，我想AI時代還有包括科技執法，您剛剛有提到科技執法，但是您上任之後有沒有了解到，其實科技執法這麼多年，也沒有很多年，就這幾年下來，其實造成民怨非常大，您知道這件事？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我理解，我是地方民意代表出身。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["陳部長世凱：聽到大家只要有收到紅單都一定是抱怨。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不、不，有的不一定是因為接到紅單的抱怨，科技執法也有很多執行面不當的地方，所以本席在這裡請您一定要回去了解。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，連科技執法這一面也不是交通部管的，而是內政部管的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係，但針對交通的部分，你要改善的話，還是有科技執法這一塊嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來本席想請教你，你還記得今年8月你有來新竹一趟，我們還有碰到面，你有沒有記得是哪一場？"],["陳部長世凱：客家的那個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，義民祭嘛！在新埔義民廟。"],["陳部長世凱：對，那一天非常的熱。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，那天非常熱。那天您跟卓院長是搭高鐵還是坐公務車下來？"],["陳部長世凱：我是坐公務車。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您是坐公務車？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那卓院長呢？你們不是一起的？"],["陳部長世凱：他也是坐公務車，但我們不是一起的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有一起？"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們沒有一起，所以你要說的塞車我有遇到、我知道，我提早差不多一個小時從臺北出發才到達。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以在哪一段塞？"],["陳部長世凱：就楊梅那一段嘛，楊梅、湖口……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，楊梅一下來，然後你開始塞，湖口就到了。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：很多常常在走一高的全國民眾大概就知道。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我曉得。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一塊有賴所謂的楊頭高架道路，這個部分也要請交通部加速來進行。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，除了這個部分加速進行之外，我最近也請我們的運研所跟每一個單位，包含高公局，大家一起來研究，因為工程完成至少還要五、六年，在五、六年之內的這段時間我們要怎麼改善，例如公共運輸怎麼加強，或者是科技園區裡面有沒有可能會有接駁車之類的，讓大家儘量不要開這麼多車去高速公路，五、六年的這段時間還是要想辦法去解決。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，很好！"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前正在處理這些……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這些配套還是要給我們。"],["陳部長世凱：對，這個我們目前在努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：除了楊頭高架，當然竹北交流道那個已經是20年的問題了，我想現在也應該在進行中。"],["陳部長世凱：對，目前有在做評估了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望陳部長上任之後能夠非常的重視，然後能夠全力的支持讓我們能夠加速進行，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這部分我們來加速。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後本席要特別提的是，不管是高速公路、快速道路，甚至是鐵道周邊的住戶，常常會受到噪音的干擾，像新竹就有部分路段的民眾不斷反映，而且那個噪音的分貝值都已經達標了，有些就算沒有達標，比如說72分貝，可是只測到60或65分貝，我要給部長一個概念，雖然你測分貝數沒達標，但是長期在這種環境下，現代人是受不了的。本席要特別跟您講，在休會期間，我們特別去會勘，當地的住戶說那個噪音大到他養的豬都不生了，你看連豬都不能生、牠都生不出來了，動植物都受影響了，所以我們希望交通部能夠重視。我們民意代表反映，而且地方上已經受苦連連，除了豬不生，人的感受是什麼？他早上常常以為車子撞到他家了，你看聲音有多大，他以為他家被車子撞上來了。我們希望我們提出來的交通部要重視，能夠儘快的給我們隔音牆的補助可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們朝正向來討論好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：要苦民所苦啊！連豬都受不了到生不出來了，你看人每天住在那裡，所以這一塊我們要請部長重視，還有這裡面牽涉到的可能是公路局，因為我們去會勘的是快速道路，麻煩一定要重視。"],["陳部長世凱：我們跟委員一起來努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員，這個很重要啊！隔音牆要做好，不然少子化的問題會更嚴重。","接下來有請傅崐萁委員，傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：一、報告及質詢完畢。二、委員林國成、劉建國、傅崐萁所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料及未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝好 陳部長"},{"start":11.578,"end":14.239,"text":"目前正在進行可行性研究"},{"start":32.369,"end":57.231,"text":"它是會經過我們板橋新莊土城跟中和大概全程大概是10.3公里經過14個車站對於我們板橋的發展是特別重要但是我對於這個太阪金軌所謂可行性評估它的這個所謂的進度我其實是不太滿意我跟你報告一下第一次去年5月3號的時候新北市政府送交鐵道局鐵道局到8月16號退回"},{"start":57.972,"end":80.04,"text":"然後到了11月27號就去年那新北市政府再送一次鐵道局在今年2月出審那再退回新北市政府在5月13號的時候再一次送鐵道局那當時在這個中間我也是在這個交通委員會諮詢李孟彥部長就請他說可不可以加快速度結果我6月13號諮詢"},{"start":81.78,"end":103.699,"text":"中間又隔一個多月又退那退的理由是什麼退的理由有幾個我是可以接受的但有幾個我是不能接受的第一個是說希望相關的財務成本的標準要跟五態一致這個OK這個原本就應該第二個他居然在質疑我們太阪輕軌的效益"},{"start":104.66,"end":129.718,"text":"這個我就非常不能接受為什麼他說他的講法是講說因為這個太阪輕軌的運量剛好達標而已但我覺得看一個輕軌的建設不是這麼狹隘更何況去年9月的時候前前交通部長王國才到我們板橋另外一區因為我們板橋兩區到我們板橋另外一區跟當地的板橋民眾承諾說要蓋太阪輕軌的攝後支線"},{"start":132.133,"end":140.165,"text":"那我也樂觀其成但我不理解的是既然你都已經承諾要蓋支線結果你在主線的可行性評估在卡"},{"start":142.241,"end":162.03,"text":"因為可行性評估是什麼意思可行性評估就是可不可行嘛就像剛剛蔡議委員講說嘉義他們有一個可行性評估沒過嘛那如果王國才部長他都認為要蓋支線了那請教一下主線還需要可行性評估還需要評估效益嗎代表他已經覺得有效益他才會去承諾支線啊部長對吧"},{"start":162.97,"end":180.227,"text":"所以如果今天你認為主線沒有效益那你去年王國才就是在欺騙選民嘛他是在一個信賴台灣的說明會上面那我覺得我們板橋選民是不能夠被接受欺騙的所以這個效益的部分除了運量評估之外他這個"},{"start":181.588,"end":187.951,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":202.717,"end":223.051,"text":"透過這些都市計畫的推動到時候會進行都市更新會帶動產業還有人口的進駐所以到時候的運量不是用現在的運量來評估啦所以我希望說部長既然這個以王國才所說根本就是一定要做的那為什麼我們要這樣卡一卡去我都不太懂啊"},{"start":223.411,"end":242.946,"text":"報告委員其實這種公共建設尤其是交通的部分我們當然希望公共運輸可以量更大一點希望大家都去搭公共運輸所以它的網路的便捷是相當重要這第一點第二點您剛剛所說的這個效益的部分您確實也提到了重點它經過一些重劃區未來它的運量可能需求是會增加的"},{"start":243.386,"end":261.541,"text":"所以我們要看交通的建設是很多,你看未來的發展因為我時間有限,代表說你認同我講的話那接下來我們講下去,我覺得時間上可以再加速因為呢,他這一次就今年7月26號退回的理由其中有一個叫做他說因為這個輕軌會經過我們台六四公路"},{"start":262.202,"end":281.317,"text":"他說希望重新評估跟台六十四公路的一些因為太近了萬一未來台六四要維修補強會不會有問題說要繼續研議但我現在不懂的就是台六四在這邊已經那麼多年了如果說你認為有這樣的問題你在第一次新北市政府送可行性評估的時候你為什麼不能跟他講"},{"start":282.352,"end":298.301,"text":"你為什麼要到第三次你才跟他說那你再去研究一下台六四那你這就在卡我們我不曉得說為什麼一個地方這麼希望的一個輕軌的建設我們交通部在公文旅行就是說你感覺就是我發問一個個單位"},{"start":299.882,"end":321.847,"text":"你們二十天有意見就在二十天內回覆二十天回覆之後我們再來看一看我再把相關意見再退回地方政府你們再研究一下然後如此這樣一來一往一來一往這兩三年就過去了所以我不知道說不然因為你也是民意代表出身的你也知道地方的需求我們都希望能夠加速可不可以針對這個可行性評估你就召開一個專案會議"},{"start":323.667,"end":338.469,"text":"馬克機關叫來問他們到底有什麼意見一致講清楚你不要說我發文給你你有意見這樣沒完沒了其實我6月13號那時候就請之前部長這樣做鐵道局後面是鐵道局長嘛你也在嘛但是你在這邊備完巡回去之後就忘記了啊"},{"start":338.649,"end":360.243,"text":"所以隔了一個多月之後又這樣啊我們不能接受就是這個原因嘛我們到時候部長您可不可以直接跟鐵道局長講請他召開專案會議叫他趕快審查的單位其實相當多啦確實您所說的不是啦你如果是跟文發給他們這樣表達意見那沒完沒了啦單位大家都一次提出一些問題那真的會拖滿久所以我會請鐵道局長就是召開專案會議"},{"start":362.745,"end":389.15,"text":"跨部門的這個協商的部分跟跨部門的意見一次整合起來讓新北市政府可以更快速的把所有的問題解決掉趕快讓柯燕趕快解決部長那種態度就對了跟鐵道局長講一下上一次我們都白講了已經講了對所以所以什麼時候會這個柯燕蘋果什麼時候會會通過專案會議什麼時候會召開請問一下鐵道局長沒問題的話你都在那邊呼嚨我們包委員我們一個月內來處理什麼一個月內還要一個月喔"},{"start":390.709,"end":417.3,"text":"因為我們還要了解新北市政府現在整個報告準備的狀態我們盡量來努力因為拖很久如果今天說這個東西我們的新北市政府先回來之後我們趕快來召開好不好新北市政府那邊還是回來部長拜託這次我們關心了所以利用第一次機會跟你報告第二個我很簡單一分鐘講一下就是我們那邊有一個萬大二期捷運"},{"start":418.2,"end":436.994,"text":"他其實已經就是動工了但是因為他其中有一段土層段因為之前疫情導致那個缺工缺料嘛然後成本提高所以修正計畫要增加200多億啦中央負擔100億那這個東西已經交通部好像據我了解8月23號已經報告行政院那其實這沒有什麼正義"},{"start":437.935,"end":452.983,"text":"就希望說部長可以跟院長講一下就是說趕快核定我們地方這個部分已經抱怨了對抱怨就跟因為這沒有爭議啦所以不像可行性評估一樣還要還要做那麼多的文書作業我們到行政院去證明就請他行政院的時候趕快幫我們通過一下好我們去行政院好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:08:26 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14:16:04","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154909","gazette":{"lineno":1512,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（14時8分）麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，陳部長。"],["葉委員元之：部長好"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：恭喜部長。當然今天是你第一次來立法院，我要針對板橋的相關鐵道建設來跟您爭取一下，因為想要讓您了解一下狀況。我主要是要講兩條，第一條就是所謂的泰板輕軌。我不知道你對泰板輕軌有了解嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：目前正在進行可行性研究。"],["葉委員元之：它會經過板橋、新莊、土城跟中和，全程大概是10.3公里，經過14個車站，對板橋的發展特別重要。但是對於泰板輕軌可行性評估所謂的進度，我其實不太滿意。我跟您報告一下，第一次去年5月3號新北市政府送交鐵道局，鐵道局到8月16號退回，然後到了去年11月27號新北市政府再送一次，鐵道局在今年2月初審、再退回。新北市政府在5月13號再一次送鐵道局，在這個中間我也在交通委員會質詢李孟諺部長，請他可不可以加快速度。結果我6月13號質詢，中間又隔一個多月，又退，退的理由是什麼？有幾個我是可以接受，但有幾個我是不能接受。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["葉委員元之：第一個是說希望相關的財務成本的標準要跟五泰一致，這個OK，原本就應該。第二個，他居然在質疑我們泰板輕軌的效益，這個我就非常不能接受，為什麼？他的講法是講說，因為這個泰板輕軌的運量剛好達標而已，但我覺得看一個輕軌的建設不是這麼狹隘，更何況去年9月的時候，前前交通部長王國材到我們板橋另外一區，因為板橋有兩區，他到我們板橋另外一區跟當地的民眾承諾說要蓋泰板輕軌的社後支線，那我也樂觀其成，但我不理解的是，既然你都已經承諾要蓋支線，結果卻在卡主線的可行性評估，我不了解，因為可行性評估是什麼意思？可行性評估就是可不可行，就像剛剛蔡易餘委員講說他們嘉義有一個可行性評估沒過。","如果王國材部長他都認為要蓋支線了，那請教一下，主線的可行性評估還需要評估效益嗎？代表他已經覺得有效益，他才會去承諾支線啊，部長對吧？所以如果今天你認為主線沒有效益，那去年王國材就是在欺騙選民嘛！他是在一個信賴臺灣的說明會上面。我覺得我們板橋選民是不能夠接受被欺騙的，所以有關效益的部分，除了運量評估之外，這個輕軌因為同時做為一個交通的串接，串聯了機場線、新莊線、臺鐵、板南線或萬大一期，所以它有做交通的串接。第二個，它沿線經過一些都市計畫區，比如說新莊塭仔圳、浮洲的都市計畫或者是板橋、土城、中和農業區，等於是透過這些都市計畫的推動，到時候會進行都市更新，會帶動產業還有人口的進駐，所以到時候的運量不是用現在的運量來評估。所以我希望，部長，既然以王國材所說根本就是一定要做的，那為什麼我們要這樣卡來卡去？我都不太懂。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實這種公共建設，尤其是交通的部分，我們當然希望公共運輸的量可以更大一點，希望大家都去搭公共運輸，所以它的網路便捷相當重要，這是第一點。第二點，您剛剛所說這個效益的部分，您確實也提到了重點，它經過一些重劃區，未來它的運量需求可能是會增加的，所以交通的建設很多，我們要看未來的發展……"],["葉委員元之：對。部長，因為我時間有限，代表說你認同我講的話。我們接下來講下去，我覺得時間上可以再加速，這一次在今年7月26號退回的理由其中有一個，它說因為這個輕軌會經過我們的台64公路，希望重新評估，因為跟台64公路太近了，萬一未來台64要維修補強會不會有問題，就說要繼續研議。但我現在不懂的就是，台64在這邊已經那麼多年了，如果你認為有這樣的問題，你在第一次新北市政府送可行性評估的時候，為什麼不能跟它講？為什麼要到第三次才跟它說請它再去研究一下台64，這就是在卡我們，我不曉得為什麼一個地方這麼希望的輕軌建設，我們交通部在公文旅行，感覺就是我發文給各單位，你們有意見就在20天內回復，回復之後我們再來看一看，我再把相關意見再退回地方政府，你們再研究一下，如此這樣一來一往、一來一往，兩、三年就過去了，所以我不知道說……","部長，你也是民意代表出身的，你也知道地方的需求，我們都希望能夠加速，可不可以針對這個可行性評估，您就召開一個專案會議，把各機關叫來，問他們到底有什麼意見，一次講清楚，不要說我發文給你，你有意見，這樣沒完沒了。其實我6月13號那時候就請之前的部長這樣做，後面是鐵道局長，你也在嘛，但是你在這邊備詢回去之後就忘記了，所以隔了一個多月之後又這樣啊，我們不能接受就是這個原因嘛！我不知道部長你可不可以直接跟鐵道局長講，請他召開專案會議，叫他趕快……"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，審查的單位其實相當多啦，確實您所說的……"],["葉委員元之：不是啦，你如果是公文發給他們，叫他們表達意見，那沒完沒了了。"],["陳部長世凱：如果以跨單位大家都一次提出一些問題，那真的會拖滿久，所以我會請鐵道局長召開專案會議，跨部門協商的部分跟跨部門的意見一次整合起來，讓新北市政府可以更快速地把所有的問題解決掉，趕快讓……"],["葉委員元之：對，部長這種態度就對了，跟鐵道局長講一下，上一次我們都白講了。"],["陳部長世凱：已經講了。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以這個可行性評估什麼時候會通過？專案會議什麼時候會召開？請問一下鐵道局長？沒問你的話，你都在那邊唬弄我們。"],["楊局長正君：報告委員，我們一個月內來處理。"],["葉委員元之：什麼？"],["楊局長正君：一個月內……"],["葉委員元之：還要一個月喔？還要一個月？他送過去之後還要再一個月處理？"],["楊局長正君：因為我們還要了解新北市政府現在整個報告準備的狀態，我們儘量來努力，還沒有回來……"],["葉委員元之：因為拖很久，如果今天說這個東西……"],["陳部長世凱：我們等新北市政府先回來之後，我們趕快來召開，好不好？新北市政府那邊的還沒回來。"],["葉委員元之：部長，拜託，這是我們關心的啦，所以利用第一次機會跟你報告一下。","還有第二個，我很簡單用1分鐘講一下，就是我們那邊有一個萬大二期捷運，它其實已經動工了，但是因為它其中有一段土城段，之前疫情導致缺工缺料，然後成本提高，所以修正計畫要增加兩百多億，中央負擔100億，這個東西據我了解交通部8月23號已經報到行政院，其實這個沒有什麼爭議，就希望說部長可以跟院長講一下，趕快核定我們地方……"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分已經報院了。"],["葉委員元之：對，報院，因為這個沒有爭議啦。"],["陳部長世凱：是、是。"],["葉委員元之：不像可行性評估一樣，還要做那麼多的文書作業。"],["陳部長世凱：我們到行政院去爭取。"],["葉委員元之：就請行政院趕快幫我們通過，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們去行政院爭取，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","接下來有請徐欣瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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下一案"},{"start":166.994,"end":183.622,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。四、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備�"},{"start":190.27,"end":208.773,"text":"你知道雪屋南這邊比較靠近我們新北臺北這個都會區所以很多遊客當時困住了300多個遊客幸好他有一個很多年沒有走的一個替代道路區公所把它搶通了以後才可以勉強的可以人可以走過去"},{"start":209.594,"end":220.048,"text":"我今天要凸顯的這個問題就是說它無預警崩塌嘛目前在台灣我們國家只有在鐵道跟國道有那個邊坡的那個預警系統"},{"start":221.263,"end":240.708,"text":"那我們是不是交通部這邊可以去盤點所有我們無論是風景區或者是我們原住民地區主要的林外道路都應該要有一個預警系統的一個部件希望你們可以早一點規劃你想想看那個崩塌如果是發生在白天或者是上下班的時間的話會死多少人"},{"start":241.388,"end":268.405,"text":"幸運的是國家這個發生的是在半夜這兩次都是半夜發生的所以沒有傷到任何人不過如果是白天就很難想像而且是復興區喔那花蓮那個地方是它是唯一的林外道路裡面很多是要洗身的人很多是要上班上課的人就沒有辦法通過所以這些無疫警系統的部件我希望交通部能不能把它放在我們的近期的規劃裡面好不好部長"},{"start":269.892,"end":272.379,"text":"可以嗎?可以,沒有問題。委員您交代這個,我們來定義。"},{"start":276.874,"end":302.607,"text":"我要講的就是我們南橫的痛就是我們桃園區還有我們只要經過那裡的一些我們的旅客或者是要運輸那裡的農產品明巴洛克橋自從我們八八風災以後到現在它每一年或者是說到現在為止已經花了非常非常多的錢那裡的原住民都非常羨慕我們霧台的原住民我們霧台有一個叫做谷川大橋"},{"start":303.447,"end":308.17,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":325.879,"end":327.94,"text":"我們國道8號就停在新化我們國道10號就停在岐山"},{"start":354.878,"end":375.835,"text":"我們818就停在潮州沒有一個是到原鄉地區的所以我希望把多一點的經費花在我們這個整修而不是永遠在修便橋的一個等級可以嗎?那我們之後確實也會提高成績在中期的部分29跟20你現在看到的那個是短期啦我知道台29跟台20希望部長能夠聽進去謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:09:31 - 13:15:50","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"154911"}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}