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林佑昌也不增加大日子的權利金"},{"start":1937.228,"end":1949.208,"text":"當日將商場轉包給NETNET年營業額超過7億營收不列入大日的營收報表這部分使市府的權利已經變成零"},{"start":1951.011,"end":1977.873,"text":"8年短收15億我只問一件事情15億元如此龐大的利益是基層公務員就能決定嗎林右昌你有沒有涉案林右昌你有沒有圖利林右昌你有沒有不明的金流林右昌如果按照檢方范柯文哲的標準請問難道不該約談林右昌難道不該搜索林右昌"},{"start":1979.56,"end":2001.38,"text":"還是說林右昌是民進黨的秘書長﹖所以檢察機關只能畫一道紅線﹖到林右昌的腳跟前﹖不敢辦林右昌今天看到基隆的罷免案10月13號就要投票我覺得民進黨你不要再欺負基隆人了"},{"start":2003.105,"end":2011.136,"text":"這種殺忠誠放奸誠的事情基隆人不會接受10月13號用不投以罷免票捍衛基隆的公道謝謝大家"},{"start":2036.496,"end":2052.188,"text":"各位國人同胞早安首先我要針對國民黨跟民眾黨聯手退回總預算表示強烈的譴責退回總預算代表我們明年的農業預算是會直接卡死的特別是針對我們加以農業線450億的腦農津貼農保50億農民職債保險農業保險加起來99億還有綠色照護站120億剝奪農民的福利這是國民黨跟民眾黨想要看到的嗎"},{"start":2065.117,"end":2075.923,"text":"我想這不是的所以我在這邊也呼籲我們國民黨跟民眾黨的同事能夠做出正確的決斷三減動實質審查這些預算本來就是我們立法委員的權益"},{"start":2077.116,"end":2101.367,"text":"也是我們應該要做的實質的去審查實質的去監督政府會對整個政府效能跟我們國會尊嚴更有利所以我在這邊還是誠摯的呼籲我們所有國民黨跟民眾黨的同事能夠做一些修正我常常在回想我們在嘉義市在走行程的時候都會看到其他在野黨的立法委員包含張祺凱跟王玉民委員但是我很遺憾的是"},{"start":2102.469,"end":2114.994,"text":"他們頭口聲聲說會爭取所有的預算來去繁榮我們的家鄉但是現在卻退回這樣子的總預算這樣有實質上幫助到嘉義嗎有實質上幫助到我們台灣的整體國家發展嗎"},{"start":2116.465,"end":2142.713,"text":"這一點我還是非常的遺憾所以說我還是希望張七凱王育民委員把總預算還給農民第二點不僅僅是農民在我們嘉義縣有一個重大的發展計畫民雄航太機無人機產業園區的開發計畫這是一個非常重大的旗艦計畫總預算達68億開發面積是近20公頃它是我們下個世代嘉義的發展引擎甚至是台灣的發展引擎"},{"start":2143.573,"end":2152.904,"text":"國防部已經在明年編列7625萬元來去辦理相關的開發作業所以如果持續在這樣子杯葛預算的話我想請問黃毓民跟張氣愷委員這樣對得起嘉義鄉親嗎"},{"start":2157.025,"end":2177.83,"text":"如果大家認為總預算的編列有不實的地方你可以質詢相關的部會可以刪減動預算這是憲法給我們的權益但是如果無理杯葛的話那就是在綁架國家弱化政府的功能那這樣會造成社會的這些混亂還是希望能夠做一些修正"},{"start":2179.195,"end":2194.868,"text":"第二個部分我們來談一談交通的議題假車牌的狀況在警方在道路上查到的這個偽造車牌的案件是大量增傷2023年在高速公路查到的是924輛但是光是今年1到5月就有847輛被ETC來去揪出來"},{"start":2198.322,"end":2217.786,"text":"那多少錢 罰一萬零八百元可是如果你是用真車牌去嚴重超速你可能會被罰到三萬六甚至是會被扣牌所以在這樣的狀況下我們呼籲交通部警政署的這個查緝的力道要加強那相關預算我們都會支持還有相關的這個提高這樣的罰則我們也會努力"},{"start":2224.784,"end":2226.565,"text":"主席以及我們在場的行政官員各位立院同仁"},{"start":2248.039,"end":2265.027,"text":"護航明年度暴增的2800億的中央總預算賴總統親自下令三道軍令狀要執政黨出席黨團會議、院會、程序委員會還要全勤但我怎麼聽說今天民進黨團只是發異動不是假動再者"},{"start":2265.799,"end":2292.756,"text":"一個總統先打電話罵部長跳過行政院長還不夠現在連立法院黨團的黨編工作也要做總統把手伸進行政院伸進立法院根本就已經是破壞我們的憲政體制了那我們要講做過立委的地方首長盧秀燕、蔣萬安都知道總預算退回程序委員會是要民進黨政府補正從編不是刪除不是不審"},{"start":2293.84,"end":2305.355,"text":"你趕快補正完之後再送進來我們就會審查啦現在是誰在拖延還要用這種似是而非的觀念來講剛剛上一位我們的新晉立委同仁還講錯誤的資訊"},{"start":2308.194,"end":2323.084,"text":"延續性的計劃﹚人事費用﹚以及相關的補助費用就受預算法54條的保障不會因為中央政府總預算沒有通過而地方政府無法使用那麼簡單的道理 立法全書先去看一下可以嗎"},{"start":2324.847,"end":2346.723,"text":"並不是要批評我們的立委同仁因為我相信他可能也有民進黨團的壓力可能也有中央廚房一套式一條龍的梗圖所以可以用這樣似是而非的觀念來去做引導做帶風向但我們要講這就代表什麼這就代表我們講的暴增15億的中央政府宣傳費用是不是太過腐爛了"},{"start":2347.97,"end":2363.505,"text":"人民給你納稅錢不是要你去養網軍不是要你做梗圖不是要你去帶風向人民要的是中央政府真真正正做一些福國利民的事情這才是我們身為立法委員站在人民的立法院在這邊捍衛預算審查預算的觀念"},{"start":2365.546,"end":2389.337,"text":"再者7月16號的時候我們上個會期的最後一天公糧收購的議題民進黨黨團在那邊講說不行不行反對到最後投票的時候也不敢反對代表什麼代表真真正正站在全民的立場上面民進黨黨團自己也會思考到底是民意重要還是黨意重要"},{"start":2390.157,"end":2390.377,"text":"本期真的呼籲"},{"start":2410.718,"end":2436.129,"text":"現在被民進黨拿來當人質的包括教育醫療護理軍公教農民權利消費保障國家安全道路改善只要合理的花費預算我們絕對不會刪減把錢花在刀口上趕快送進來這才是全民之福謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言接下來請登記第4位陳金威委員發言"},{"start":2444.537,"end":2461.962,"text":"主席各位官員大家早安今天我要談的是假使我們的醫護環境沒有改善那昨天賴總統所說的社會防衛任性就是在打假球昨天賴總統推動了三大委員會之一全社會防衛任性委員會開會了"},{"start":2463.562,"end":2481.096,"text":"聚焦五大主軸 第一個是民力的訓練 第二個是戰略物資還有維生配送 第三個是能源以及關鍵的基礎建設 第四個是衛福醫療以及避難設施 第五個是資通還有運輸以及金融網路安全"},{"start":2482.045,"end":2507.253,"text":"我相信保家衛國全民有責過去不論是發生任何天災我們台灣人都是團結一心攜手動怒難關但是近年來政府疏於改善醫護的環境造成諸多的紛爭和問題身為醫事人員代表的我必須很嚴肅的說如果未來發生大規模的天災或是不幸出現了戰爭"},{"start":2508.513,"end":2522.886,"text":"在這五大主軸中的社福醫療還有維生系統整備這個領域恐怕會成為最大的國安破口根據衛福部的資料全國醫院平均護理人員空缺率"},{"start":2523.667,"end":2546.99,"text":"自108年度的4.5% 逼增到112年度的9.1% 空缺率是直接翻倍啊人力短缺的問題 源自於政府不願意投入更多的醫療支出而造成的後果 就是許許多多的醫護人員用腳投票就出走了"},{"start":2547.791,"end":2565.543,"text":"沒有護理師照顧的病床就只是一張沒有用的床關病床的新聞層出不窮前天健保會開會開了12個小時仍無法具體的訂出如何為我們護理人員加薪的方案"},{"start":2566.843,"end":2580.934,"text":"這幾個月來在醫院也有很多的鬼故事塞滿急診室而且在走廊上滿是病床還有病患必須坐在輪椅上被電擊治療等等今年的7月相信大家也看到了"},{"start":2582.075,"end":2602.429,"text":"連進行最基本的生理食鹽水也大量的缺貨導致各級醫療院所哀鴻遍野洗腎的病患求助無門有些手術是被迫延期後來只能用高於市價的3倍來緊急補貨專案進口到最近我問了許許多多的醫生同事們"},{"start":2603.51,"end":2624.906,"text":"都還沒有我們大劑量的可以在我們臺灣生產這個屬於戰略物資設想如果發生了區域衝突或是天災我們將無法維生也無法也缺照顧傷患的醫護人員所以如果賴政府不願意正視現在醫療現場最大的難關前幾天這個委員會"},{"start":2635.66,"end":2636.16,"text":"主席各位官員"},{"start":2663.885,"end":2687.023,"text":"各位我們全國的同胞大家早安我在這裡代表台灣民眾黨敬告我們賴總統停止立社獨裁再一次敬告我們賴皇帝停止立社獨裁一個總統應該"},{"start":2691.923,"end":2713.011,"text":"是要有厭懼調停之功能可是萬萬沒有想到為了一個執政黨為依法編列法律的遺漏的編列沒有想到他來下禁令狀各位總統"},{"start":2716.405,"end":2731.46,"text":"是要調停宴席紛爭的責任可是沒有想到變成賴皇帝去做這些禁令狀的下令但是在這裡我要告訴賴總統其實"},{"start":2736.055,"end":2736.255,"text":"主席"},{"start":2756.784,"end":2780.339,"text":"五前憲法千萬不要毀憲亂政的做法台灣是一個民主國家台灣是一個非常自由的國家請你在做總統的時候要有厭忌分明該你管的你管不該你管的不要管所以不要自己成為總"},{"start":2783.181,"end":2801.134,"text":"總統不像總統變成是皇帝制這樣的話對台灣民主是沒有幫助的所以我在這裡我還要呼籲奉勸我們賴總統奉勸我們賴皇帝放下屠刀立地成活"},{"start":2801.994,"end":2829.125,"text":"放下你手中干預國會的自製徒刀請你為台灣百姓來造福百姓的甘霖所以再一次呼籲我們賴總統不要做皇帝賴總統你千萬不要做皇帝的事情一定要有一個民主國家總統的高度這樣"},{"start":2831.445,"end":2844.249,"text":"臺灣人民才會有福祉臺灣的民主才會有希望所以賴總統不要成為賴皇帝所以在這裡請求我們賴總統賴皇帝"},{"start":5409.653,"end":5424.618,"text":"報告院會：我們現在繼續開會：請秘書長報告出席人數報告院會：出席委員56人：已足法定人數我們現在開會：進行報告事項：請秘書長宣讀第二會期第一次會議：議事錄"},{"start":5427.827,"end":5435.208,"text":"先讀立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議事路時間中華民國113人9月20日上午10時至12時30分下午2時32分至5時43分9月24日上午9時至11時50分下午2時30分至5時18分地點本院議場出席委員黃偉國昌等113人列席官員行政院院長卓榮泰等40人主席院長韓國瑜"},{"start":5455.812,"end":5480.429,"text":"護院長江啟臣報告事項第一案宣讀本院第11屆第一會期第二次會議意思錄決定確定第二至二十三二十七至三十四三十七至五十一均決定交互相關委員會審查第二次事案決定禁貿獨並由臺灣民眾黨黨團負責早期協商第二十五二十六案均決定同意撤回"},{"start":5481.806,"end":5495.013,"text":"第35案 決定 退為程序委員會重新提出第36案 決定 定期舉行會議 邀請省紀長列席報告省而經過並備諮詢第52案 決定 遭案通過第53至63案 為財政委員會等所提示報告案"},{"start":5501.357,"end":5511.707,"text":"第64至68案為行政院含送本院委員提案之原處行刑執行事項夾行政院答覆部分事實件以本院委員執行部分兩件"},{"start":5515.778,"end":5533.809,"text":"討論事項第一至六案均決議交互黨團協商行政院院長施政報告並答覆質詢決定下次會議繼續進行施政報告之質詢其他事項一113年9月18日朝野黨團協商結論兩項二臺灣民眾黨黨團提出權宜問題暫不處理列入公報紀錄三本次會議四字程針對討論事項照臺灣民眾黨黨團民眾"},{"start":5544.815,"end":5571.825,"text":"民進黨黨團及國民黨黨團提議通過另依9月18日協商結論9月20日星期五及翌日星期二邀請行政院院長等內席進行施政報告並被質詢其餘均到原本已一層查案通過宣讀完畢會議委員會針對第二會期第一次會議事錄並無委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處我們做以下之決定"},{"start":5572.557,"end":5578.639,"text":"第2會期第一次會議意思錄．確定．請宣讀第二案第二 有無異．無異通過下一案"},{"start":5591.974,"end":5602.117,"text":"第三案 本院委員翁曉琳的23人離聚 憲法訴訟法第30條及第43條條文修正常請選一案 程序委員會間 您請問會將司法及法治委員會審查 宣讀完畢報言會報告事項第三項 現有國民黨黨團提議禁服二讀並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商 請問院會有異議沒有異議本案禁服二讀並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商下案"},{"start":5619.554,"end":5645.434,"text":"第4案本院委員吳曉琳的25人離去國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第16條條文修正草案清水案陳修委員會見你請問交互司法及法規交通兩委員會審查宣讀完畢報告委員會報告事項第4案現有國民黨團體禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商請問院會有無異議沒有異議我們本案禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商下一案"},{"start":5645.987,"end":5667.428,"text":"第5案 本院委員葛如君等21人離聚 自動安全管理法修正草原情勢一案 柴旭委員會見理情委會交交通委員會審查 宣讀完畢第6案 本院委員黃建豪等19人離聚 定性管理法第5條第8條及第79條條務修正草原情勢一案 柴旭委員會見理情委會交交通委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":5668.829,"end":5687.34,"text":"第7案 本院委員杭建豪的20人離聚 學校公餐法草案請審議案 柴旭委員會見 立行委員會交 教育界文化委員會審查 宣讀完畢第8案 本院委員呂玉玲等16人離聚 就業保險法第30條條文修正常請審議案 柴旭委員會見 立行委員會交 社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":5690.402,"end":5711.156,"text":"第9案 本院委員呂玉玲等16人離聚﹐客家語言發展法草案清水一案﹐程序委員會見﹐立行委員會交內政委員會審查 宣讀完畢第10案 本院委員蘇清璇的20人離聚﹐地方制度法第33條條務修正草案清水一案﹐程序委員會見﹐立行委員會交內政司法及法治兩委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":5711.676,"end":5713.177,"text":"無異通過下議案無異通過下議案"},{"start":5727.827,"end":5750.296,"text":"第12案 本院委員邱振俊的21人理據 教育經費編列與管理法第3條條文修正草案請審議案 程序委員會見 立行會教究及文化委員會審查 宣讀完畢第13案 本院委員邱振俊的19人理據 國土計畫法第45條條文修正草案請審議案 程序委員會見 立行會教內政委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":5751.556,"end":5775.115,"text":"第14案 本院委員賴世寶的二十五人離聚 加水刑及非加水刑頁稅法第十三條條文修憲草原侵水案 程序委員會見立行會交財政委員會審查 宣布完畢無異通過下議案第15案 本院委員賴世寶的二十五人離聚 證券交易稅條例第二條需二及第十二條條文修憲草原侵水案 程序委員會見立行會交財政委員會審查 宣布完畢無異通過下議案"},{"start":5775.515,"end":5793.543,"text":"第16案本會議委員賴世寶的二十六人理據 洪水條例第十二條條文修正草原情緒一案 程序委員會間已經會交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢第17案本會議委員賴世寶的二十四人理據 預算法第六十三條條文修正草原情緒一案 程序委員會間已經會交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":5796.724,"end":5817.049,"text":"第18案 本院委員賴世寶的23人離聚 毒品危害防治條例增添第2條13條文草案請審議案 程序委員會見立行會交司法及法治委員會審查 宣讀完畢第19案 本院委員賴世寶的25人離聚 就業保險法部分條文修正草案請審議案 程序委員會見立行會交社會福利協會上環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":5819.85,"end":5839.063,"text":"第20案本院委員賴世寶的23人離聚就業服務法第46條條無修正財運請水一案陳秀園會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢第21案本院委員賴世寶的21人離聚土地稅法第54條條無修正財運請水一案陳秀園會見你請回交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":5843.126,"end":5867.528,"text":"第22案 本院委員賴世寶的21人離聚 政堂法第11條之一及第39條條文修正草原情緒一案 強行委員會見 立行會交內政司法及法制 兩委員會審查 宣讀完畢第23案 本院委員賴世寶的24人離聚 使用牌照稅法第29條第30條及第31條條文修正草原情緒一案 強行委員會見 立行會交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":5868.769,"end":5889.578,"text":"第24案 本院委員賴世寶等27人離聚 因久稅罰第19條及第21條條文修正草原侵水案 陳秀媛會見 立行會交財政委員會審查 宣傳完畢第25案 本院委員洪孟凱等19人離聚 相反法部分條文修正草原侵水案 陳秀媛會見 立行會交內政委員會審查 宣傳完畢"},{"start":5890.979,"end":5912.931,"text":"第26案 本院委員蘇曉慧等30人離聚 癌症防治法修正草原情緒一案 程序委員會見 您請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢無異通過下一案第27案 本院委員蔡其昌等18人離聚 婚姻稅條第12條條文修正草原情緒一案 程序委員會見您請回交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢無異通過下一案"},{"start":5913.191,"end":5913.351,"text":"委員．第28委員．第29委員．第29委員．"},{"start":5935.569,"end":5961.72,"text":"第30案本院委員蔡其昌等17人離聚中華民國刑法第212條及第216條條文修正草案請選一案陳秀燕會見逆行匯交司法及法治委員會審查 宣布完畢第31案本院委員蔡其昌等17人離聚國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司順勢條例第4條及第23條條文修正草案請選一案陳秀燕會見逆行匯交司法及法治兩委員會審查 宣布完畢"},{"start":5963.041,"end":5986.268,"text":"第32案本院委員中加病等19人離聚一條法第84條條文修正草原侵水案陳秀妍會見立行回交社會福利優勝環境委員會審查 宣布完畢第33案本院委員中加病等19人離聚道路交通管理處罰條例第12條基地12條之一條文修正草原侵水案陳秀妍會見立行回交交通委員會審查 宣布完畢"},{"start":5987.768,"end":6010.138,"text":"第34案 本院委員鍾嘉斌的19人離聚 中華民國刑法第212條條務修正草原請選一案 程序委員會見 理情會交 司法及法局委員會審查 宣布完畢第35案 本院委員鍾嘉斌的20人離聚 六度司法檢查條例修正草原請選一案 程序委員會見 理情會交 司法及法局內政 兩委員會審查 宣布完畢"},{"start":6011.539,"end":6035.372,"text":"第36案 本院委員中嘉賓的20人離聚 中華民國新法第222條及第227條條文修正草原清水案 程序委員會見 立行會交司法企劃支援會審查 宣讀完畢第37案 本院委員中嘉賓的21人離聚 定性管理法第5條第9條及第79條條文修正草原清水案 程序委員會見 立行會交交通委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6036.713,"end":6037.473,"text":"無異通過下議案無異通過下議案"},{"start":6060.965,"end":6061.205,"text":"第40屆第41屆第41屆"},{"start":6084.853,"end":6086.634,"text":"無疑通過下議案無疑通過下議案"},{"start":6111.212,"end":6133.117,"text":"第44案 本院委員吳麗華等20人離去 應求稅法第19條及第21條條務修正常情水案 柴旭委員會見 您請回交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢第45案 本院委員吳麗華等20人離去 應求稅法第2條第5條及第6條條務修正常情水案 柴旭委員會見 您請回交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6134.577,"end":6149.022,"text":"第46案．行政院海警審議娛樂稅法部分條文修正草案案．程序委員會見．內政委員會審查．宣讀完畢第47案．內政部橫層國家住宅及都市更新中心一百十四年度算數案．程序委員會見．內政委員會審查．宣讀完畢"},{"start":6153.283,"end":6167.557,"text":"第48案 國軍退屬於官兵 輔導委員會 橫送財團法人榮銘融券基金會114年度預算書案 陳修援會 屆例行會交外交及國防委員會審查 宣讀完畢第49案 農業部橫送財團法人中華民國對外漁業合作發展協會等21項財團法人114年度預算書案 陳修援會 屆例行會交經濟委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6178.047,"end":6201.137,"text":"第50案基礎監督管理委員會橫送財團法人臺灣金融研証院等其家財團法人114年度預算書案財修委員會見例行會交財政委員會審查宣讀完畢第51案文化部橫送財團法人國家文化藝術基金會等社家財團法人114年度預算書案財修委員會見例行會交教育界文化委員會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":6202.378,"end":6202.958,"text":"第52案第53案第52案"},{"start":6230.385,"end":6254.93,"text":"第54案 國家科學及技術委員會含奏國家災害防救科技中心及國家太空中心114年度預算書案 產修委員會建立行會教教育及文化委員會審查 宣讀完畢第55案 核能安全委員會含奏 殘兌反人中華民國輻射防護協會及殘兌反人核能資訊中心114年度預算書案 產修委員會建立行會教教育及文化委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6255.495,"end":6279.635,"text":"無異通過下議案第56案 核能安全委員會橫送國家原子能科技研究院114年度預算書案 強修委員會建立行會教教育界網化委員會審查 宣布完畢無異通過下議案第57案 教育部橫送財團法人道學入學考試中心基金會等施加財團法人114年度預算書案 強修委員會建立行會教教育界網化委員會審查 宣布完畢無異通過下議案"},{"start":6279.895,"end":6280.355,"text":"委員．第59委員．第59委員．"},{"start":6302.156,"end":6322.718,"text":"第60案 數位發展部橫送國家自動安全研究院114年度預算書案 財修委員會見 理行會交交通委員會審查 宣讀完畢第61案 數位發展部橫送財團法人電信技術中心及財團法人臺灣網路資訊中心114年度預算書案 財修委員會見 理行會交交通委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6324.159,"end":6348.162,"text":"第62案 司法院橫送財團法人法律輔助基金會一百十四年度預算書案﹖常修委員會見李警官交司法及法治委員會審查﹖宣讀完畢第63案 法務部橫送財團法人臺灣更生保護會﹖財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪被害人保護協會一百十四年度預算書案﹖常修委員會見李警官交司法及法治委員會審查﹖宣讀完畢"},{"start":6349.663,"end":6350.403,"text":"第64案：第65案：不予通過下一案"},{"start":6375.729,"end":6401.719,"text":"第66案 勞動部橫送財政法人職業災害預防及重建中心114年度算數案 財政委員會見 理行委員會交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢無疑通過下一案第67案 行政院主席總處橫送114年度中央政府準算案 優先順序總表及各主管機關概算計畫優先順序排列表 財政委員會見 理行委員會交財政委員會 宣讀完畢無疑通過下一案"},{"start":6402.039,"end":6402.259,"text":"委員通過 下一項"},{"start":6420.999,"end":6421.359,"text":"委員通過下議案"},{"start":6440.33,"end":6441.571,"text":"第71案第71案無異通過下言"},{"start":6469.625,"end":6470.246,"text":"委員通過下議案"},{"start":6486.187,"end":6487.748,"text":"第73 案第74 案無疑通過下一案"},{"start":6510.985,"end":6512.525,"text":"第75屆第76屆無意通過下案無意通過下案"},{"start":6536.551,"end":6559.059,"text":"第77案 內政部肯為槍炮彈藥主要組成零件種類名稱修正委槍炮彈藥主要組成零件種類及殘疾病修正規定 強修委員會建立行回交內政委員會 宣讀完畢第78案 海洋委員會涵送違反海洋污染防治法發揮二度裁判準則 強修委員會建立行回交內政委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6560.379,"end":6586.239,"text":"第79 經濟部內政部海外修正﹐創業團體分業標準﹐增訂高屋文化 增產管理﹐創業團體業別及業務範圍﹐陳述委員會見﹐您請回交經濟內政兩委員會﹐宣讀完畢第80案﹐經濟部海外修正﹐戰略性高科技貨品種類﹐特定戰略性高科技貨品種類﹐及輸出管制地區之﹐輸往俄羅斯及白俄羅斯﹐高科技貨品清單﹐陳述委員會見﹐您請回交經濟委員會﹐宣讀完畢"},{"start":6589.522,"end":6591.083,"text":"第81案 經濟部署委員委員委員委員委員委員委員"},{"start":6609.179,"end":6631.073,"text":"第82案 經濟木海維修正工業園區各種用地用途及使用規範法等三項法規 程序委員會見例行會交經濟委員會 宣讀完畢第83案 經濟木海維修正中華民國九十九年度再生能源電能短供費率及其計算公式第二點規定等十四項公告程序委員會見例行會交經濟委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6631.833,"end":6660.399,"text":"報告 院會本案由臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查本案交經濟委員會審查下一案第84案經濟貿易省五國與印尼簽署 駐印尼台北經濟貿易代表處與駐台北印尼經濟貿易代表處標準化及符合性 平靜的領域合作瞭解邊網路中文本 印尼文本及英文本 約盤引本陳書仁會見 理行會交經濟外交及國防兩位委員會 宣讀完畢無疑通過 下一案"},{"start":6660.859,"end":6661.68,"text":"委員通過下議案"},{"start":6677.933,"end":6706.722,"text":"第86案 農業部函送該部與亞洲蔬菜研究發展中心﹐亞洲世界蔬菜中心簽訂﹐蔬菜研究與發展瞭解兵網路﹐中英文版本銀本傳輸委員會建立行會交經濟外交及國防兩位委員會﹐宣讀完畢第87案 農業部函送臺灣農業部與英國環境食品與鄉村事務部﹐有基因產品項目承認瞭解兵網路﹐英文約本及中英本傳輸委員會建立行會交經濟外交及國防兩位委員會﹐宣讀完畢"},{"start":6708.102,"end":6735.312,"text":"第88案 外交部函送中華民國臺灣政府與馬上尋討共和國政府交易合作瞭解編網路我方淪陷中文及英文約本陳秀妍會見 理行會加護交際國防委員會 宣布完畢第89案 法務部函送我國與帛琉共和國完成簽署之中華民國臺灣政府與帛琉共和國政府法益合作瞭解編網路中英文約本一本陳秀妍會見 理行會加護司法及法治外交及國防聯會委員會"},{"start":6736.292,"end":6762.072,"text":"宣讀完畢第92 考試院行為廢止 特種考試 交通事業 人員考試規則 程序委員會見 立行會教 司法啟發支援委員會宣讀完畢第91案 考試院行為修正 專門職業及技術人員高等考試 醫師 洋醫師 中醫師 藥師考試 分階段考試規則 第12條的文集 第6條 副表1 第7條 副表3 程序委員會見 立行會教 司法啟發支援委員會宣讀完畢"},{"start":6763.453,"end":6791.687,"text":"第92案 考試院航文修正 考試院考選獎狀 頒給辦法第6條條文及第7條附表3 財修委員會見例行會交司法及法律委員會 宣讀完畢無異通過下一案第93案 考試院航文修正 警察官職務等監表 甲中央警察消防海洋委員會及海岸局防軍官學校職務等監表之21 海洋委員會海巡署 並說自112年10月26日生效 財修委員會見例行會交司法及法律委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6794.588,"end":6802.992,"text":"報告委員會拜託各位委員輕聲細語好嗎?好吧請維持下議場的秩序大家輕聲細語講話謝謝無異議通過下一案"},{"start":6816.923,"end":6827.826,"text":"報言會本案由國民黨黨團提議改交審查本案交司法及法治委員會審查報言會第95案至第183案請依序宣讀其中第105、135、137、142、147、152、179至183案台灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查宣讀之後"},{"start":6844.771,"end":6858.062,"text":"以上提案均交相關委員會審查其餘議案均照程序委員會意見通過請問院會有無異議沒有異議我們宣讀後通過請宣讀"},{"start":6858.971,"end":6865.274,"text":"第9案 超委員會 第99案 國家發展委員會 第106案 公平交易委員會 第10方案 經濟部 第130案 農業部 含為143年度中央政府準算權益分別解送相關報告"},{"start":6876.459,"end":6878.581,"text":"謝謝報告委員會第184案及質詢事項請一併宣讀宣讀之後第184案准予被查請宣讀"},{"start":6906.653,"end":6929.965,"text":"第1842委ﷺ本月展示出橫頌﹐立法院第11屆第二會期各委員會﹐中級委員﹐委員名單﹐名單如下﹐內政委員會﹐徐委員﹑新穎﹑張委員﹑洪璐﹑外交暨國防委員會﹑王委員﹑定瑜﹑林委員﹑易軍﹑經濟委員﹑呂委員﹑玉琳﹑邱委員﹑志偉﹑財政委員﹑陳委員﹑喻貞﹑賴委員﹑惠元﹑邱玉潔文化委員﹑萬委員﹑美玲﹑范委員"},{"start":6930.825,"end":6948.817,"text":"交通委員會盧委員明哲陳委員肅岳司法及法治委員會吳委員宗憲中委員嘉賓秀慧府理事會商環境委員會蘇委員清泉黃委員秀芳質詢事項北院委員質詢部分北院外委員美琳等向行政院提出質詢共9件宣讀完畢"},{"start":6949.605,"end":6950.045,"text":"各部會首長請假請行"},{"start":6964.642,"end":6983.312,"text":"報告院會 行政院來函外交部林部長嘉隆本日應公請假由田市長鐘光代表列席經濟部郭部長志輝本日應公請假由陳市長鄭齊代表列席僑務委員會許委員長嘉青"},{"start":6986.638,"end":7003.8,"text":"本日應公請假由阮副委員長昭雄代表列席原住民組委員會曾志勇主任委員本日應公請假由谷仲、卡勒方安副主任委員代表列席報告完畢"},{"start":7005.069,"end":7026.108,"text":"報言會現有國民黨黨團提出對經濟部長等連續請假事宜之會議詢問我們特別向院會說明跟報告依立法院職權刑事法第26條規定行政院院長、副院長及各部會首長應親自出席立法院院會並備質詢"},{"start":7028.61,"end":7056.756,"text":"因故不能出席者應該於開會前檢受必須請假之理由及行政院院長批准之請假書報院會本日院會行政院來函之部會首長請假情形剛才我們秘書長已經向院會進行報告基於憲法之尊重及重視本院委員之質詢權利"},{"start":7058.601,"end":7084.502,"text":"排除非出國或有特別重要且迫切的公務需要去親自處理至無法出席外部會首長不宜請假而委由副首長來代表出席本院前有含文通知行政院轉告各部會首長應遵照辦理因此仍請行政院確實處理"},{"start":7086.42,"end":7103.186,"text":"此得免各部會首長的請假未能在院會進行政策對話國民黨黨團所提書面質詢之內容我們列入公報記錄現在我們敬請蔡其昌委員質詢選擇經濟複雜"},{"start":7117.608,"end":7143.333,"text":"報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽席來自臺中霧峰區我們所有的好朋友請我們委員掌聲歡迎我們請蔡奇常委員請質詢報告院會請尊重質詢委員之權利麻煩大家請再一次呼籲輕聲細語請蔡委員"},{"start":7155.203,"end":7181.254,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩主席請行政院院長交通部陳部長交一部鄭部長麻煩請左院長備詢請交通部部長備詢蔡文英還有請交一部鄭部長麻煩請交一部鄭部長備詢院長早蔡委員好院長我在媒體上看到"},{"start":7183.191,"end":7199.066,"text":"您這個要來拜會立法院韓院長就針對預算的問題希望兩個院長能夠進行協商院長有這個事情嗎跟委員報告"},{"start":7201.172,"end":7201.432,"text":"所以時間約了嗎?時間約了嗎?"},{"start":7224.278,"end":7225.639,"text":"總預算是萬事的根本各個社福團體"},{"start":7246.84,"end":7272.816,"text":"各個社會各界我們各部會重要用在人民身上國家建設上面的預算這個不能開玩笑但行政院先展現誠意卓院長展現誠意韓院長展現能力民主國家就是要協商民主國家沒有辦法不協商很多政策要推動這很困難所以執政黨展現誠意韓院長展現能力"},{"start":7273.556,"end":7299.56,"text":"我想這個才是國家之福啦所以樂見兩位喝咖啡也希望多多溝通能夠讓人民期待的這些總預算地方政府等待的補助款能夠順利的在立法院來進行審查謝謝韓院長也請委員能夠大力的協助那第二個事情我想這個謝謝院長部長"},{"start":7301.003,"end":7322.395,"text":"針對今年年底就11月馬上要舉行在臺灣的一個棒球界的盛事就是12強的比賽那謝謝教育部在經費來支持院長也指示要全力來協助這個棒球運動的發展在這裡我代表另外一個身份就是職棒的會長來謝謝行政院"},{"start":7324.431,"end":7352.59,"text":"我待會也準備了一件衣服要送給院長因為12強的球衣還在製作還沒有辦法製作完成所以我先送給院長是今年明星賽臺灣隊的球衣待會我來送給院長我也要跟院長拜託也代表很多的球迷特別是中南部的球迷要來拜託行政院這個大巨蛋落成啟用之後這個效益非常的高"},{"start":7353.326,"end":7374.695,"text":"無論是棒球的比賽或者接下來明年我們要逐漸展開除了棒球運動剩下的這些休閒娛樂的表演其實大巨蛋的檔期在明年開始會顯得很滿所以過去我們擔憂蓋了一顆大巨蛋會不會產生經濟效益會不會變成蚊子館"},{"start":7375.535,"end":7403.732,"text":"但是這一年來的數據來顯示並不會有這樣的現象那中南部天氣炎熱事實上對於很多的活動的舉辦甚至下雨的問題這個對很多的市民朋友在欣賞這個休閒娛樂事業的表演或者是職業運動的表演其實都產生很大的困擾所以本席希望這個中南部"},{"start":7404.793,"end":7427.074,"text":"需要另外一顆巨蛋所以中南部需要一個蛋院長你的看法怎麼樣因為委員來自台中對中部來自中南部的重視我們當然理解我個人的想法是生蛋不易養蛋更難他除了在選擇地點以及安全的考量"},{"start":7428.657,"end":7452.896,"text":"設備的功能以及將來能夠有一些什麼樣的活動在裡面要做長遠的規劃之外我認為還有一個專業的團隊能夠來經營我想換是具備之後我們才來討論這個可行性如果我的意思說很簡單地方政府支持而且也願意有球團他願意來做這個投資那行政院的態度是贊成或反對"},{"start":7453.476,"end":7480.002,"text":"這是基本的要件有球團願意當他的這個母廠地方政府就要從地點的提供選擇安全的設置等等要來做全面的規劃這兩個地點都成熟情況底下行政院支不支持如果地方有這樣的需求那全國我們認為在均衡台灣的理念之下現在台北有大巨蛋小巨蛋"},{"start":7480.919,"end":7483.3,"text":"我想我們一起來努力啦我只是先問行政院的態度我想台灣真的有機會我們來爭取第二顆蛋"},{"start":7510.322,"end":7524.388,"text":"第三個部分我們過去一直在期待臺灣其實我們只有在臺中的海線只有一個所謂室外的333尺的自行車競賽符合標準的場地我們一直欠缺奧運市井賽現在所謂自由車賽道距離是250公尺"},{"start":7535.99,"end":7556.716,"text":"所以我過去一直在爭取這個事情那教育部的體育署現在也在規劃要找到包括南部也在爭取 台中也在爭取那不知道院長知不知道這個計畫我知道教育部有一個優化全民運動與賽事會的環境的計畫那是不是請部長來說明一下計畫的內容"},{"start":7561.65,"end":7577.924,"text":"謝謝委員關心臺灣的體育發展特別在自由車裡邊確實我們體育部是有優化全民運動跟賽會環境計畫也編列了6億元的經費部長這個我知道我的意思是說這個計畫"},{"start":7579.977,"end":7582.519,"text":"本席一直在爭取臺中清水這個地方"},{"start":7610.478,"end":7612.2,"text":"這本席已經講很久了,希望部長要特別關注一下"},{"start":7630.56,"end":7643.492,"text":"好謝謝委員我們體育署阿跟台中市政府有一個計畫在進行我知道請教一部未來這個計畫的進度或是達到一樣的一個建展的時候要跟委員一起來參與要邀請委員一起來參與討論以及他整個建構的過程謝謝委員"},{"start":7647.955,"end":7675.711,"text":"時間的關係陳部長也上來了我想本席在乎的三件事情第一個捷運局限一定要延伸到清水這個差三公里沒有道理不到清水街上這個是本席一再強調的台中市理部長的時代也跟市政府溝通了本席希望市政府說留一個尾巴不是表示要延伸到清水本席希望的是可言中央已經通過"},{"start":7676.852,"end":7697.171,"text":"交通部你們負責本席爭取 過去李部長也答應本席剩下3公里的可言 那個大概1000萬左右的可言預算那個交通部來補助台中市政府 那就看市長做不做這個可言可以延續李部長的想法"},{"start":7699.205,"end":7717.635,"text":"報告委員這個部分因為你的指示那當然之前臺中市的捷運只有到清水的山上到機場那邊而已那只差三公里沒有到市區確實是很可惜所以在10月2號我們也交通部會邀集這個臺中市政府大家來演商說後面這一段的延伸的可言"},{"start":7718.215,"end":7747.155,"text":"但是因為主管單位是地方政府要由他們來提出來那只要他們願意提出來這個可言後面的這一段交通部在經費上會來協助所以本席爭取這個預算給台中市政府如果台中市政府再不做的話這個就太可惡了這個部分要由台中市政府來主動提出對當然那我就講我先因為李部長實在已經答應了他說一千萬左右的預算中央來支付但市政府要同意下去進行可言所以我們中央都幫他做好了"},{"start":7747.515,"end":7772.985,"text":"我就等著市政府到底要不要做好不好那另外就是藍線的部分過去陳建忍院長時代也承諾要配合捷運藍線最後一站那個港務大樓要整體做興建這個事情我也希望陳部長跟院長都知道然後要督促港務公司到底他的進程到底是什麼時間要趕快列出來給本席"},{"start":7774.402,"end":7802.915,"text":"目前正在可言的階段這部分也會會及委員辦公室的一些意見沒有問題我們在交通委員會可以再討論我只是提醒因為院長也剛上任第三個就是海線鐵路的這個雙軌化我希望這個當然這裡面也涉及到市政府但我還是目標沒有改變我希望在賴總統這一任的任內也就是未來的四年內一定要讓他動工好不好雙軌化的部分在這個任期內應該沒有問題我只是因為兩位都"},{"start":7804.048,"end":7827.423,"text":"新上任我還沒有提過這個特別在今天總質詢的時間特別再交代一下另外有一個事情我也請法務部跟金管會部長跟主委也都上來院長我大概跟你解釋一下我希望行政院出面可以來解決現在人民苦不堪言我解釋給院長聽"},{"start":7828.997,"end":7855.143,"text":"這個A先生他匯錯款A先生匯款匯不到人匯錯款匯給B匯錯款匯給B所以呢A先生就只能跟A銀行講說不好意思我匯不到匯錯款了那這時候A銀行如果匯款的B是同一個銀行所以銀行就會通知B說有人匯錯款給你請你把錢匯出來"},{"start":7857.663,"end":7876.881,"text":"這個B啊 現在我們交房詐 打詐叫你接到電話 說它是什麼銀行 要你匯款 這個都是詐騙我們在問題參政就是這樣搞嘛 不然大家就被詐騙嘛所以呢 這個銀行要通知B的時候啊 這個是無效的電話 不會有人相信啦"},{"start":7878.171,"end":7888.724,"text":"不然呢那第二個方式呢就是如果匯款的B這個受匯人阿他是在B銀行那就要A銀行通知B銀行再叫B銀行通知B"},{"start":7890.097,"end":7915.88,"text":"各位知道意思啦齁所以呢這裡面阿這個過程裡面通常B都是不會理會的因為B認為這個都是詐騙標準嘛說他是銀行的行員要我匯款齁這個符合詐騙的原則所以他是絕對不會理會這種電話好那不會理會電話A匯款錯誤的人怎麼辦A匯款錯誤他很簡單他只有兩個方法一個告民事一個告刑事阿因為告民事"},{"start":7916.963,"end":7941.772,"text":"要撤出啦 這麼麻煩 所以告刑事比較快所以他就到警察局直接告這個侵占警察就要受理嘛 這公訴罪警察就要受理嘛所以你看齁 我們的警察局為了受理這種假侵占他要接多少的案子再來 因為要受理 所以我們的檢察署也要起訴"},{"start":7943.066,"end":7966.799,"text":"因為這是假清戰他為什麼他要逼阿就是他要讓A為了逼出來把他的錢還給他所以他只好A只好這樣做所以你看這樣的一個事件不但擾民增加了我們地檢署的負擔增加了我們警察同仁的負擔所以阿現在的方式銀行說他也沒辦法"},{"start":7967.281,"end":7995.891,"text":"那可不可以把B的資料直接告訴A不行因為這是個資這是個資啦所以也沒辦法讓他們兩個自行解決也不行好啦所以我們就不斷的有很多的案子你看那個主委你去問一下銀行啦銀行告訴我說你們金管會告訴我說沒這個資料啦到底像這種案子銀行有打電話通知那個會錯的一年有多少通電話你就可以知道這個案子有多少"},{"start":7997.182,"end":8025.678,"text":"那你就要逼這個A逼得人家就要去告阿又浪費資源然後呢這個匯錯那個人他覺得很無辜阿他忽然接到檢察官要調他法院檢察官要起訴他他無辜的一塌糊塗他也不知道他坐在家裡只是有一個人匯款匯錯給他天阿他要上法院欸所以逼阿怨聲載道阿他坐在家裡沒事他也不是錢是他自己別人匯進來的阿"},{"start":8027.219,"end":8051.289,"text":"所以本席真的覺得這種是擾民到了極點讓我們行政成本付出那麼多金管會應該出面把銀行找過來你就直接跟匯錯款的人收錢因為你自己匯錯款所以我銀行出面幫你解決然後你付費給銀行你也不要說銀行做白工因為匯錯款要付出代價"},{"start":8056.631,"end":8076.379,"text":"這個狀況應該沒有涉及到詐騙而且他假設會錯整個軌跡會非常明顯我想這部分我們回去趕快來找銀行公會還有就請我們同仁趕快來把這案子來做一個看看怎麼來解決確實剛剛這個部分可能只是一個錯誤的話他沒有任何詐騙但是問題對於街道對B這個坐在家裡"},{"start":8077.719,"end":8084.823,"text":"賬號忽然多一筆錢的人來講他根本也沒有去管他的賬號多一筆錢可是他接到銀行告訴他說你有錢匯錯你要把錢匯回"},{"start":8120.452,"end":8143.408,"text":"好 謝謝蔡奇昌委員的質詢 謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第22號陳雪生委員質詢院長早安 是不是請行政院卓院長"},{"start":8154.244,"end":8182.586,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢陳委員好,剛剛不好意思院長早安謝謝您關心我的健康大家都關心我想托院長的福好不好保重這兩天新聞說中央政府總預算被退回了"},{"start":8183.601,"end":8212.71,"text":"其實我心裡面也很難過那麼在答詢裡面當然也有很多地方的建設我也了然於胸用錢沒有錢的話地方工程再再沒辦法那個我想以院長您的態度謙卑謙卑我想對一個政治人物來講也沒算丟人的事情所以剛才蔡行長副院長也講到希望跟韓院長還有找幾位總召茶敘喝咖啡"},{"start":8213.137,"end":8224.872,"text":"都可以聊聊天把這個困境解決這比較重要而不是說對抗三黨對抗我覺得這不是上色院長你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":8226.406,"end":8248.659,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒跟督促我們就是朝這個方向在進行我覺得能夠跟韓院長坐下來談談話我們都能夠了解彼此內心想法那我們只要把這個想法現在如何化成為一個做法實際上的作為那我會繼續請我們的部會首長能夠說明清楚主動的跟"},{"start":8249.506,"end":8274.216,"text":"朝野各黨團說明清楚反對黨的議事也是主要說立法院三讀通過的一些的法案那麼行政院沒有照沒有依法行政沒有列入他們主要的抗爭我覺得問題所在是在這裡那麼學生也願意藉著老命綿薄之力我也希望能夠充滿也能夠促成謝謝這是雪中送炭謝謝"},{"start":8276.645,"end":8281.269,"text":"接下來都是幾個老問題,在這邊也請報告主席,請交通部長一起備詢請交通部長備詢北竿機場從102年,我們馬祖沒有一個安全的機場,連山西都沒有"},{"start":8297.02,"end":8323.19,"text":"從102年民航局估計北竿大概4C的機場建設經費需要300億經過可行性評估還有環評都已經通過了當然行政院也核定了200多億的預算做3C機場的一個興建我再次強調我弟弟一家五口在北竿的上空歷難"},{"start":8324.844,"end":8344.797,"text":"我每次回馬祖去尤其在南竿機場的跑道跟航空母艦降落一樣每一次的測風我想去的乘客都提心吊膽所以拜託院長對山西機場要特別重視這個案通過以後民航局"},{"start":8347.574,"end":8375.634,"text":"民航局現在也找了一些相關的部門配套等等這些做事都要做因為北竿機場興建很重要很重要但是執政黨在我們馬祖基層的黨部很像不停的放話覺得說我們老百姓反對我們在前幾天的會議裡面北竿的鄉代也好村長也好一共13席出席那麼有11個人贊成"},{"start":8377.177,"end":8404.892,"text":"吳敬明投票11個人贊成,1個人沒意見,1個人缺席所以表示大家是支持的但是這裡面就是清建機場的同時會有一些噪音、空污等等我希望交通部回去檢討督促民航局做一些配套的措施那麼這個機場關閉以後有一些航空站的消防員、民航的這些作業人員"},{"start":8405.851,"end":8434.923,"text":"要到南竿去要到南竿去上班所以坐船的費用等等我們可以優惠或是免費對北竿地區的一些商業活動可能也會減少我們可以借著消費券或是幹什麼等等做一些配套的措施來做那麼地方的執政黨部覺得說很像我們縣政府或是立委都不管其實錢都在民航局主政單位是交通部所以我們"},{"start":8436.004,"end":8460.163,"text":"我們沒有意見是不是請部長在幾個月之內回答我好不好能夠把它完成配套措施配套措施的部分目前正在跟地方政府正在協議正在協商當中那連江縣政府也有提出一些想法那麼在建設計畫啟動之前還有一些其他工程的相關配套"},{"start":8463.877,"end":8488.845,"text":"建設計畫的期程是不是也請部長告訴我能不能在短短幾個月之內趕快把配套措施做好配套的部分現在跟地方大家都還在討論我們也不是只有民航局我們的港務公司他們也要協助來辦理這件事情所以橫向的聯繫也還在聯繫在溝通當中這個部分我們會盡快"},{"start":8490.606,"end":8501.345,"text":"我們希望把雜音剪到最低的程度好不好也拜託周院長您利用你的影響力跟地方黨部講一下不要再去阻擋了好不好"},{"start":8501.989,"end":8526.407,"text":"我們有聽到一些關於這個工期較長而且工程進行之後產生的一些影響乃至於未來南北竿之間交通的狀況跟方便性這個我們都有聽到但是跟委員我們不會聽少數的聲音但是我們會綜合大家的意見做一個大家地方上最圓滿和諧的方式來進行我希望執政黨的執政黨部跟我們縣政府"},{"start":8529.232,"end":8555.631,"text":"大家合作 大家團結在一起為馬祖地區如果委員認為合適 我也願意到馬祖再去走一趟看看大家真正的地方的反應是如何是是是 好不好另外一個就是了掉重產馬祖大橋我想我跟院長提過好幾次了馬祖大橋的興建在107年12月10號由我們現任總統也是前行政院院長賴清德先生同意"},{"start":8556.859,"end":8585.388,"text":"連江縣南北跨海大橋可行性的評估案 辦理綜合規劃我們的公路總局也花了一億五千萬去做了綜合規劃這個綜合規劃做出來以後經過我們世西 州議長知道世西嘛世西是我們頂尖的工程顧問一個公司說是民營其實大部分都是公股"},{"start":8586.519,"end":8607.734,"text":"他的可靠性是很高的交通部三次報院院裡面秘書轉到國發會國發會每次一直退都是以技術性為由一直退在去年國發會把他送到"},{"start":8612.142,"end":8638.613,"text":"我跟我說明了花了五六百萬拿到英國去做最後的技術性的一個確定院長你知道英國的人事費多高嗎五百萬我評估只夠花人事費因為對這個整個的海床水文鑽探這問題這些要花很多的錢市區花了一億多去搞這個東西所以"},{"start":8639.96,"end":8667.627,"text":"我聽說英國這家公司又回頭來問世西底下海底的狀況是怎麼樣水溫是怎麼樣氣候是怎麼樣這樣一個評估報告國發會主委您回答我一下好不好這個報告我們星期一會送到院回來了沒有下個星期一會送我們今天應該會完成他們有什麼意見嗎"},{"start":8669.652,"end":8697.445,"text":"這個可能要報院之後我們才好好回覆我想院長我們講這個誠無信不立誠信我認為是很重要的這一個案子經過可行性評估經過綜合規劃經過交通部下面的學者專家一次又一次的檢討報院再送國發會已經那麼久了"},{"start":8699.186,"end":8727.006,"text":"從開始到現在已經有7年的期程了老闆一直說我在騙他們我在騙選票院長我今年73歲我想幹完應該是退休的年齡我想應該安享一些天年那麼院長也關心到我的健康我確實跟以前體力確實差了很多我也希望退休但是鄉親覺得這個事情沒有完成很像我在騙人"},{"start":8728.825,"end":8755.678,"text":"我跟他們一直解釋在裡面有他的困難度賴總統也講了好幾次攸關馬祖未來百年發展大計的橋是馬祖人應得的大橋案在自己手中推動一定全力以赴這是賴總統講過的話"},{"start":8758.376,"end":8784.947,"text":"我想請院長也跟賴總統報告這個案子在蔡英文總統手上蔡英文總統答應我了當然她現在卸任了蘇貞燦院長也答應我了OK沒問題那麼她也卸任了那麼現在我們是卓院長我想以我跟卓院長我們私交也好公語也好我希望卓院長能夠跟賴總統報告因為你看金門已經有大橋"},{"start":8785.834,"end":8813.842,"text":"彭胡有大橋甚至楊耀委員要做第二座的大橋馬祖能夠把南竿跟北竿能夠做一個連結兩座機場並為一個機場作為一個連結的話第一個我們把地域面積擴大區域面積擴大都市計畫做一個重新的規劃整理做一個更新對馬祖未來的發展那個是非常深遠的所以這是我任立法委員期間"},{"start":8815.658,"end":8819.182,"text":"首先委員健康一定無恙一定繼續為地方來轉達聲音爭取各項的建設"},{"start":8836.54,"end":8855.055,"text":"我雖然過去到現在我們一直知道這座橋的工程從水文從海象從工程本身的進行都具有相當的複雜性跟挑戰性不過當當剛剛我們劉靜卿主委國發會他說下禮拜會把最新的報告送院裡面來看"},{"start":8855.675,"end":8870.388,"text":"我跟委員報告我一定會非常詳細的看看內容如何進行下一步如何來跟委員做報告以及對整個案子我們朝哪個方向能夠迅速的來進行或推動我跟會主委我是沒見過啦我是希望"},{"start":8871.638,"end":8893.415,"text":"我們世襲花了1億5千萬在做這樣的一個技術性的評估你去相信英國花500萬他們寫出的報告你會相信嗎而且他所有裡面的資料很多都是截取我們世襲的公司裡面的一些資料所以您要做審證的評估"},{"start":8894.011,"end":8894.151,"text":"賴清德總統講"},{"start":8917.067,"end":8942.112,"text":"經費不是問題你說預計八年完工我昨天前天找了航港局來他要做旁邊的護體工程護體工程以後對施工的期程還可以縮短一兩年所以不要那麼久的時間所以拜託了院長這樣子一直公文來來去去來來去去來了六七年你覺得很好玩嗎"},{"start":8943.582,"end":8970.378,"text":"我們加緊來把這個事情看看報告之後如何迅速的來做一個方向確定我們共同來討論我還會再問我想我說也說得很煩了您可能聽也聽得很煩陳雪生每天找我都是馬祖大橋的事我們知道委員對橋對機場的關心是一直如此的這個是橋是馬祖的百年大計這個橋跟機場如果能夠連結"},{"start":8973.171,"end":8995.452,"text":"我想我們中央政府重視離島偏鄉我這幾年說實在話我對執政黨的聲音是非常小的為什麼我一直抱著感恩的心所以我在崇禎很少去介入黨派的立場介入黨派的立場只有剛才說預算被退回我希望崇禎能夠做一點努力"},{"start":8995.922,"end":9021.157,"text":"我也希望院長能夠以更謙卑的態度找韓院長諮商找兩位的總召大家都有個下台階把這個事情能夠圓滿的解決因為1月1號很快很快就要到了這裡面有公務人員的加薪加薪是不成問題的那是法定的一個基礎那錢是可以發的所以我拜託這幾個月"},{"start":9023.82,"end":9024.382,"text":"好 跟委員報告"},{"start":9031.109,"end":9060.022,"text":"我會請陳世凱部長不僅從一座橋跟一個機場的存廢問題我們希望從連江線四鄉五島整體的交通運輸未來經濟發展上面來做整體的規劃來做一個比較全盤性的規劃我想這個我會請交通部跟經濟部或是相關的部會我們都來做這樣的思考我會從縣長議長去行政院看院長因為院長剛上任我們考量到你的公務一定很忙"},{"start":9060.782,"end":9075.16,"text":"所以我盡量不去吵你我可以去我可以去好不好我們盡量但是馬子你沒去過吧去過阿只是上任之後還沒有去過上任的時候我一直想再去走不管怎麼樣連江縣也是我們中華民國的一個縣市當然是縣長找適當的時機"},{"start":9079.372,"end":9108.247,"text":"找天后比較好一點不要你飛機降落的時候在那邊提心吊膽的好不好我還很懷念秦碧的美麗那再謝謝這個委員一直談到對總預算你的關心我再請委員幫忙我也會努力你的幫忙真的是雪中送炭民生有望我在黨裡面我一定盡全力去處理好不好不管怎麼樣他們不看金面看佛面不管怎麼樣我也是一個老幹部嘛是不是他們也會給我一些面子但是"},{"start":9108.7,"end":9130.678,"text":"你們一定要很努力好不好不要去對抗去對抗的話不是好事情不是人民之福不是社會國家之福好不好好那交通部長跟主委請回好不好我想請國防部部長有沒有來今天不曉得 顧部長顧部長能不能請您上台一下好不好"},{"start":9133.615,"end":9146.566,"text":"最近這幾天北竿的民眾從鄉長鄉在村長我電話至少接了100多通什麼事呢北竿靶場的事情北竿靶場我講了幾年了我講了7年了"},{"start":9148.883,"end":9173.723,"text":"那麼顧部長到馬祖去的時候我還不知道我後來聽說他來了我匆匆忙忙跑到機場去給他送行顧部長對不起啊這個不知道您大人歷歷馬祖啊我沒有跟你做接待沒有跟你做接待我到機場跟你會個面這個靶場在我們的堂崎淡黃區也就是現在的東區跟西門町的這個比喻"},{"start":9175.285,"end":9204.221,"text":"旁邊是小學、中學、醫院、運動場他不是打槍喔不是射擊不是光步槍射擊喔機關槍在那邊ㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤ的然後他又沒有時間的問題喔部隊他不會通知你啊他可能隨時啊打籃球打到一半了突然發生放鞭炮了不知道什麼事齁這個對我們周邊的噪音也好居民的安全也好大大造成問題"},{"start":9205.202,"end":9232.599,"text":"我講了七年了好 軍方現在提出來了提出來一個A案一個B案A案要五億四千九百多萬四億九千多萬B案要九億多要九億多那麼他的一個原則國防部的立場非常堅定要再拆再建院長清朝的靶場花了二十二萬塊錢就是弄幾張一個靶溝幾張靶紙"},{"start":9235.648,"end":9260.589,"text":"這邊對一些草包中間都是草在以前設計是這樣設計訓練的現在你要做一個5億9億的一個現代化的靶場我們部隊有多少部隊700多個人在去掉休假的官兵不過剩下500個人嘛你覺得這個經濟效益評估在哪裡你要做個9億5億的靶場"},{"start":9262.967,"end":9291.56,"text":"要連江縣政府來出這個錢我們才願意搬走在座的各位領導你們覺得是不是笑話一則我們今天是幹什麼我們準備反攻大陸嗎那我也不去自損自己的威風現在大陸不是要金門馬祖用打的嗎我看也不可能他不要嘛他外海那邊把你圍起來餓都可以把你餓死是不是這樣所以我們一直希望就是說"},{"start":9292.205,"end":9314.563,"text":"藉著金門馬祖跟彼岸的一個緩衝能夠來對台灣跟大陸做一個緩衝我們金門馬祖民眾的心態一直是這樣當然我們也心上的台灣一定是這樣雖然有一些因為在那邊自殘有一些官媒談話的話我們也不得不說"},{"start":9315.663,"end":9343.23,"text":"是不是不得不說啊所以畢竟啊都是中華的子孫嘛中華的炎黃子孫那我們的親戚也都在對面對面親戚也都在這邊所以這個事情靶場啊部長我跟你報告我在前幾年的總諮詢裡面我說給你兩年的時間如果你繼續打靶我躺在那個地方躺在靶溝上你打你可以來打我你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":9345.697,"end":9367.207,"text":"跟委員報告因為現在這個靶場的這個要作為一個訓練用這個是必要的那靶場現在的一個要求在經過這個工程公司針對這兩筆土地實施評估的結果是根據專業評估的結果所需要的一個經費"},{"start":9369.932,"end":9399.413,"text":"你剛剛也提到了A案跟B案那A案的部分是比較錢比較少一點那這個是經過專業的評估的那我們還是需要這個靶場來作為這一個駐地這件事情我不需要拿到議會裡面來向周院長來討論這件事情拿到國防委員會去報告就可以了去質詢你就好了我為什麼拿到這裡來所以太久了嘛已經7年了我跟你報告明年1月份開始"},{"start":9400.762,"end":9420.608,"text":"明年1月份開始你們一地訓練500個阿兵哥大概打靶訓練射擊訓練不過100個人不得了了坐船移到南竿去打靶我們不再妥協了如果你明年1月份還要繼續打靶的話我躺在那邊跟你抗爭委員萬萬不可這個國軍"},{"start":9425.717,"end":9453.514,"text":"保衛國家的安全是政府的責任更是國軍神聖的任務所以國軍必須接受到基本的訓練來守護他這個守護的能力這個是必要的至於說這個過程當中長年來的問題我想顧部長會很積極的去想一個方式跟委員再討論我們如何能夠也符合國軍基本的訓練那也能夠地方大家不再有這麼大的反彈"},{"start":9454.875,"end":9481.073,"text":"那國防部一團死水在那邊一直給我拖一直拖馬祖防衛部跟我講說等中山國中蓋好中山國中現在去標的沒有人標欸馬祖工程沒有人標台灣搶標搶得要死啊馬祖現場要一個一個去拜託為什麼呢缺工缺料工材上漲而且海象不好充滿了變數預期罰款罰得非常重沒有人標工程欸"},{"start":9482.353,"end":9496.288,"text":"沒有人表明,都是用拜託的所以院長、部長拜託,靶場的事情12月底為止,請馬祖防衛指揮部一地訓練,可以不可以"},{"start":9497.984,"end":9525.064,"text":"你後面慢慢規劃我沒有意見你後面規劃個10年我都沒意見馬黃布就我了解9月18號已經發函給連江縣政府還是我們還是希望連江縣政府能夠盡速確認這個簽件的薪資用地的範圍縣政府哪來的10億5億啊院長你很清楚吧小小一個連江縣政府哪有5億10億的錢啊"},{"start":9527.062,"end":9551.89,"text":"怎麼可能我們五千萬都拿不出來你知道我拿五億而且你這個是清朝的時候蓋的靶場你現在是民國的官還在想清朝的事怎麼可能顧部長跟委員乃至於跟縣政府我們談一下有沒有新的地方確定可以去確定新的地方之後我們再來想這個後續我建議部長要跟主席長跟財政部部長去談這個事情"},{"start":9553.8,"end":9570.79,"text":"因為他們有內規,他們的規定是待拆待建而且是建好以後,你要先建好,先建後拆,除了待拆待建還先建後拆這個很煩,所以我跟院長跟部長報告"},{"start":9573.581,"end":9599.518,"text":"你不要怪我不客氣我發動全民抗爭拜託委員再給我們一點時間不要說你剛剛說的代猜代鑒或是先鑒後猜就是邊鑒邊猜到年底也不可能完成我們還是在想一個方法不可能完成的啦不可能完成的我評估他去發包都發包不出去所以我們再大家談一個適合的時間方式地點我們請部長跟委員繼續溝通我覺得你們這個承諾不算數"},{"start":9601.072,"end":9627.89,"text":"我上一次質詢 全面質詢七年了勒 到現在原地踏步 原封不動老闆已經在罵 立委我說你去找縣政府嘛縣政府說我們公文商業大國防部根本不理我們啊是不是 那我沒辦法啦 他們又找到立委什麼東西都是立委是不是 你叫我怎麼辦 我手上也沒有尚方保健我手上也沒有武器部長幫忙解決這個問題"},{"start":9630.837,"end":9658.482,"text":"我雖然很話講在前面但是你們真的要好好去思考一下國防部連想都不去想這個事情有這樣的事我不會跟你們妥協這件事我不會跟你妥協我們還是希望能夠不影響這個戰備演訓的前提之下來進行那靶場的設置是有對我們的戰備訓練是有必要的他預定坐在這裡這個山坡怎麼挖"},{"start":9659.558,"end":9686.987,"text":"這還要環評當然他不是一公頃以上一公頃以上要環評你這怎麼做九億五百個人去做個九百億的靶場我以前在中山分局服務中山分局還不止五百個人你去問他靶場有多大他一直跑到翠山上面去打他跑去哪裡打移地嘛做個船到南竿去打嘛要那麼大的空間來做個靶場幹什麼浪費 真的是浪費"},{"start":9690.066,"end":9712.8,"text":"人家說浪費比貪污還可怕這個就是叫浪費你知道嗎五百個人還會少我聽報宅講金門馬祖還要再撤兵你部隊還要再撤你還要再撤到時候兵會更少所以部長你好好思考一下這個問題好不好那部長我想不浪費時間你請回好不好我剩下的時間還要問一下那個國產署"},{"start":9717.458,"end":9742.581,"text":"財政部財政部是財政部麻煩請財政部中央部長備選部長你再留步一下好不好部長對不起 顧部長因為這裡面牽扯到軍備局再請國防部顧部長備選院長你知道國防部軍備局跟財政部的國產署占領我們馬祖的土地占比是多少你知道嗎馬祖的"},{"start":9748.974,"end":9764.207,"text":"跟委員報告在馬祖地區已經登記的有2500多公頃那國有的部分事實上佔了88%所以國有的部分包含國防部也包含國產署金管大概佔了百分之八成院長你聽到了沒有國產署軍備局"},{"start":9768.86,"end":9797.398,"text":"占領我們全馬組88%的土地院長你如果是林鄉縣縣長你對這個縣你準備怎麼規劃我們只有12%的土地在玩喔委員一定清楚這一定是有它的歷史的因素歷史你講的歷史更好暫地政務以前是阿兵哥阿兵哥以前根本都沒有人管的那個地方"},{"start":9799.02,"end":9826.548,"text":"我們跟大陸那邊魚換來換去交易那個袁大頭換來換去都沒事的現在管得可緊了金門發生牛疫馬祖這邊豬肉也管制我們養一隻土雞生幾個雞蛋出來還要經過檢查我們已經是次等公民了已經是次等公民了你說為了國人的安全我請問馬祖人是不是國人金門人是不是國人"},{"start":9827.435,"end":9828.575,"text":"現在國產組我還是麻辣"},{"start":9851.653,"end":9881.153,"text":"真的比強盜土匪還凶悍土地的一個情況您也很清楚第一個在辦理總登記的時候民眾如果認為是私有的他可以申請登記部長你如果有空的話我去拜訪你好不好我來拜會委員請你接見我一下好不好我來拜會委員我想請你接見我一下好不好時間可以的話我就來拜會委員因為時間的關係好不好那個部長 具備局最近有表現比較好一點"},{"start":9882.253,"end":9885.456,"text":"另外請教院長今天衛福部部長有沒有來邱部長對不起我在選舉期間執政黨地方黨部"},{"start":9912.142,"end":9927.365,"text":"一直要求說馬祖的縣立醫院應該改為部立醫院我今天是很慎重的我今天是很慎重的跟院長報告這個事情您覺得縣立醫院改為部立醫院如何"},{"start":9929.416,"end":9953.714,"text":"據我所知先前的連江縣政府好像有不大一樣的評估的報告不是把縣立醫院改為部立醫院就好了這裡邊要一公頃的土地你要擴充面積心臟內科心臟外科神經內科神經外科麻醉科很多科都要的這些醫生從哪裡來他的人員配比人員配置從哪裡來"},{"start":9955.932,"end":9979.17,"text":"雖然之前地方政府好像有不同的見解但是我認為衛福部所俠所有能夠提升離島地區醫療服務水準的工作我們都不會放掉我們都會列為重點在做我想衛福部也已經有相當多的進展不是換湯換藥啊你了解謝謝陳學生委員質詢謝謝卓院長的備訓"},{"start":9983.424,"end":9985.127,"text":"接下來我們請登記第23號吳春成委員質詢"},{"start":10015.899,"end":10040.452,"text":"好 有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選吳委員好院長好 你辛苦了我應該跟委員報告剛才聽到你跟陳雪生委員的對話在談馬祖的建設我是非常的感動我覺得以陳委員這個 這個"},{"start":10044.821,"end":10071.891,"text":"老當益壯為家鄉謀福利所以我覺得我們應該要政治放一邊齊心愛台灣齊心愛台灣大家一起能夠攜手合作全民都在看著我們今天我這個議題非常的重要因為就像上面寫的"},{"start":10073.257,"end":10099.412,"text":"再過95天臺灣就正式進入了超高齡社會那被視為國安危機的人口問題是否有解那這個希望這個院長暫時把一切的紛擾放一邊我們能夠專注用心以國家利益大於政黨利益甚至大於個人得失"},{"start":10100.458,"end":10122.031,"text":"因為這件事情事關到600萬的壯世代還有年輕人的未來所以現在也有萬名的人線上在看我們這一場質詢所以我用了一個比較有趣一點希望不要劍拔如章能夠有高度有風度的有一場華山論劍"},{"start":10124.326,"end":10124.346,"text":"華山論鑑"},{"start":10150.236,"end":10179.017,"text":"院長知道這個是人口危機我在這個領域也很久了我深深的感受到往前30年臺灣最重要的問題是民主化的問題但到現在還在談民主化就是笑話了民進黨再過明天就是38歲了從青少年到現在中年還在搞同樣的問題這個就要再加油一點"},{"start":10180.404,"end":10208.591,"text":"但是呢往後30年最重要的是什麼是人口的問題高齡化跟少子化台灣以全世界最快的老化最嚴重的少子化像那個直接掉下懸崖一樣的人口跟南韓並列為全世界兩個人口最嚴重的國家到2057年我們會超越日本比日本還老"},{"start":10209.809,"end":10213.048,"text":"這樣的人口危機請問行政院準備好了嗎"},{"start":10214.667,"end":10241.817,"text":"跟委員報告我們日前曾經試圖討論過這個重要的問題包括我們現在的出生率等等其中我特別提到我幾年前的一個手上的資料說我們到2070年台灣的人口可能降到1500萬那現在我們要維持這樣的數字也必須要做更多更多的努力像日本甚至有日本滅絕論希望哪一天不要台灣就討論這個問題"},{"start":10243.457,"end":10259.851,"text":"所以努力就從我們現在開始這個我們已經忽略太長期了特別是明年2025年邁向超高齡社會是一個元年我們正式面對高齡社會來臨的一個元年那希望從院長你開始因為這個問題會讓台灣整個動能消失"},{"start":10266.572,"end":10286.293,"text":"在過10年2030年台灣一半人口將超過50歲一半人口那這一群人茫茫然沒有方向感沒有政策沒有產業任期倒下來那這個也成為少子化的成因年輕人沒有未來"},{"start":10288.305,"end":10316.915,"text":"那這個這裡我還是要感謝院長在5月31號你第一天這個到國會來做施政報告接受總質詢我也第一天就質詢你當時看到你懷抱理想暢談國家希望工程請問院長你現在雄心壯志還在嗎"},{"start":10319.145,"end":10344.661,"text":"記得當天我還謝謝委員因為你的壯世代的這種標準把我都列進去了我都感覺到溫暖那我們當時所談的我們會一步一步的落實到現在的人口政策裡面對於委員最關心55歲壯世代的這些還有生產力的消費者而且他具有工作能力的這一群如果讓他導入到社會同時國家社會能夠對他"},{"start":10345.842,"end":10370.949,"text":"做更多的關懷跟投資這就是在我們現在在包容成長裡面有關你社會投資相當重要的一部分院長你知道你是國家最高行政首長你一言興邦你的一句話影響力有多大所以我們不是隨便嘴巴講一講當然是就過了因為你知道你當時承諾在行政院成立了跨部會的小組"},{"start":10372.309,"end":10386.876,"text":"終於也啟動了整個的壯世代計畫列車因為我們都很當真我們都很相信院長所以有六位部長都啟動了我們來看一下整立法院都動起來了"},{"start":10388.243,"end":10404.91,"text":"立法院還有韓院長有出席主持我們有63位立委加入的壯士代政策及產業發展促進會壯促會然後200多位的學業專家這個也在我們那個群仙樓九樓"},{"start":10406.802,"end":10432.912,"text":"創下一時的朝野共識所以可以看立法院動起來的我們再看省紀部都動起來省紀部一直對我們政府在高齡化少子化處理的政策很不滿意很有意見也出了很多指導的一些評論分析但是看起來大家都置之不理"},{"start":10434.088,"end":10444.245,"text":"沈記長也認同壯世代的理念認為這是一個新社會的解方邀請我去跟他們上課做了很多的溝通"},{"start":10446.613,"end":10472.864,"text":"針對430位的審計人員他最後也承諾要把這樣的政策列為年度的審計重點希望審計的跟行政院能夠大家一起同心同力另外我們的事務官我也非常感謝陳時中政委在院長承諾之後他立刻接下任務立馬行動很快速的在兩個禮拜之內就召開了"},{"start":10473.404,"end":10477.487,"text":"關於新的聲表認同也展開了行動的一些目標召開了三次的會議"},{"start":10498.817,"end":10526.765,"text":"在8月12號的時候我們召開了壯士代的公聽會那聖旗一使也250位的專家出席50位的中央的官員出席那我特別感謝有8位的次長5位的次長全程參與4個小時沒有沒有沒有跑掉大家非常熱烈而且很有共識達成了10點共識後來也有送到行政院做參考"},{"start":10527.782,"end":10533.178,"text":"另外也跟院長報告 狀態不是臨時提出來的他在民間已經倡議3年了"},{"start":10535.054,"end":10561.572,"text":"所以普及民間、廣獲共鳴你現在去Google大概有超過10萬筆的壯世代的文章在討論在這一期的商業週刊以壯世代做封面35頁報導那你可以看到這一個在民間是如何而且他談的是企業對於企業看到的這一方面的公司也請部會能夠好好的"},{"start":10562.008,"end":10562.849,"text":"養養灑灑數萬字竟然沒有提到這五個字超高齡社會"},{"start":10579.744,"end":10592.262,"text":"我有點嚇到 你知道嗎 我就 院長我 院長你是忘了嗎 你的承諾嗎你心中沒有超高齡社會嗎但是我寧願相信 院長你最近真的是太累了"},{"start":10592.915,"end":10610.206,"text":"我們已經在進行中的事情我沒有把它特別強調這點抱歉那當然啦這個我基本上是體諒你啦覺得你是太累了分心太多啦但是這件事情還是這就是裡面提到的因為大家都動起來的萬鈞敘事待發"},{"start":10615.376,"end":10638.941,"text":"然後行政院有決心嗎?大家突然有一點有院長你的一言興邦有時候一言悔邦這一個大家等待你這一個在這個跨部會小組在陳政委的領導下召開了三次會議主動的從6個部會擴充到13個部會"},{"start":10643.227,"end":10660.318,"text":"這是主動 這不是委員的要求是他們在探討過程當中會發現真的是很多部位跟高聯化都有關也提出了64項的計畫這個項目大概就看到這個聲勢壯大但是仔細一看以後發現"},{"start":10666.926,"end":10688.863,"text":"這都是匯編的現行措施沒有策略引導沒有未來性沒有前瞻性感覺就是敷衍了事另外我們也詢問了各個部會有關壯世代這13個部會有關壯世代編類預算的情況根據他們的回覆"},{"start":10696.416,"end":10720.057,"text":"幾乎都有5個部會掛零 兩個部會是零頭勞動部沒有公務預算 另外找一些基金衛福部都是在做一些文康志工 也都是湊數性的讓我們真的是滿腔熱血 突然被潑了冷血 不過剛書發布"},{"start":10721.254,"end":10722.374,"text":"臺灣一半人口超過50歲 三問院長"},{"start":10750.888,"end":10751.748,"text":"院長你覺得"},{"start":10773.456,"end":10788.823,"text":"報告委員我們國家的政策國發會長期以來都有相當整密的規劃甚至他們也定期的或是不定期的會發表很多對國家政策的過去的分析未來的預判目前這個工作也正在進行當中"},{"start":10789.663,"end":10801.686,"text":"我知道國發會很努力,但是他們提的東西你們都不看啊,各部會都不看啊各部會呈現出來的邊類,像教育部、終身教育師預算,針對60歲以上的教育預算,佔教育部的0.2%基本上各部會幾乎都是1%以下"},{"start":10815.543,"end":10815.923,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":10831.041,"end":10850.557,"text":"不過請委員能夠關心因為我們剛剛因為由您的一邊督促陳時中政委是非常快速的行動未來他會在我們社會福利推動委員會當中也會定期的將這個議題納為報告的重點那各部會也有他可以雲芝的這個預算跟費用我認為在"},{"start":10852.185,"end":10869.107,"text":"所謂定一層重視在相關的過程當中政府不會去忽略了遺漏了這一塊那以後還要請委員我們繼續來讀是不是執行的能夠到位這個各部位因為主動都站出來各部位有誠意但是我們現在欠缺的是什麼"},{"start":10872.05,"end":10888.146,"text":"我可以補充事實上我們今年14年教育部在這個中生學習這一塊我們事實上經會我特別因為委員關心這個壯世代我覺得那也確實在整個學習人生的一個國化裡邊"},{"start":10888.911,"end":10906.544,"text":"所以我特別增加了2點多億也就是說我們從這個原來的經費增加到將近5億的這樣一個經費所以這個整個所佔的一個比例教育部的經費也有超過1點多%我看好像主計處的資料這個在我們的稅基上面壯士代的貢獻是佔了55%"},{"start":10916.041,"end":10918.883,"text":"第二問 院長這不是老人的問題這是年輕人的問題年輕世代大家都在談扶養比"},{"start":10936.561,"end":10936.581,"text":"復陽筆"},{"start":10948.639,"end":10968.454,"text":"越來越小對不對目前是4比1委員我時間暫停一下好不好對不起那個備詢的部長你看問哪一位就在那邊其他的部長就請回好不好因為這樣子這個畫面等一下我要請你們出來跟我喊口號好不好請各位部長先回院長請留下來問哪一位我們的大家長對不起我覺得這樣會比較好一點抱歉抱歉委員對不起請繼續好"},{"start":10977.116,"end":10995.205,"text":"目前是4比1啦 4個扶養1個到2040年是2比1啦到2057年就1比1啦 台就分子代分母啦我要請問院長對這個會壓垮下一代的扶養品國家希望工程有解方嗎"},{"start":10996.943,"end":10996.963,"text":"王國興議員"},{"start":11010.967,"end":11026.213,"text":"高齡的照顧上面我們會持續推動長照3.0來增加年輕人在對高齡長輩的一個負擔那我們會做更多的家庭投資來投資給這個年輕的家庭讓他們能夠從減輕負擔開始"},{"start":11028.956,"end":11040.186,"text":"能夠比較成長自己的撫養的這個能力這個就是在過程當中這個事情沒有一個社會有辦法去照顧一半的人口都從照顧撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養�"},{"start":11057.16,"end":11074.7,"text":"這些人不是我們所想像的都是躺在那邊靠撫養的靠社會福利的他們事實上可以生產者消費者繼續成為一個社會的貢獻者現在戰後嬰兒草全部進入60歲了戰後嬰兒草有三個特質"},{"start":11076.755,"end":11087.262,"text":"高壽、高智能、高資產這些是社會上非常有用的人我們現在就把他打到社會的邊緣去了讓他任由他們臥床躺平"},{"start":11087.981,"end":11114.145,"text":"然後再來大量的這樣子的老人之後再用社福去救濟這不是一個很愚蠢的方法嗎所以我一直有一個講法就是讓我們的高齡者健康多一天會好過我們對他的照顧多一點所以在衛福部勞動部他們有一個途徑喔包括這些壯士代跟高齡者的學習就業投資文化文康觀光等等甚至志願"},{"start":11115.086,"end":11128.569,"text":"服務做志工讓他再進到社會這個他都有途徑其實呢我們換個角度你從引髮思維的角度就是照顧但是呢如果你從壯志的思維你會發現這群人太有用了"},{"start":11129.124,"end":11129.464,"text":"三問院長"},{"start":11158.717,"end":11177.382,"text":"我們現在的社福預算已經超過了8300億了現在呢 花了這些錢可以解決我們的人口國安危機嗎還是這些錢有辦法承諾 如果花了這些錢就有效 那我們當然值得花嘛 有效嗎 會嗎 會解決嗎"},{"start":11179.346,"end":11199.012,"text":"委員應該清楚人口的危機不會是一年兩年就可以解決的但至少我們現在有一個方向我們如何先維持現在的出生率能夠把它維持住再想盡各種有效的途徑讓把它提高所以我們用更多的剛剛說的社會投資從0到2歲2到6歲之後的義務教育"},{"start":11203.213,"end":11223.894,"text":"國中到大學一路上0到22歲國家跟著大家一起養的這種觀念希望鼓勵大家這一個是一個全面性的問題這一個也不是靠幾個救濟性的措施能夠解決的問題這既然是國安危機這麼容易解決就不叫國安危機了"},{"start":11225.435,"end":11252.642,"text":"所以最終源自於我們失衡的高齡政策我們現在只有單軌式的照顧性政策而沒有發展性政策那這個8300億也只能照顧15%就是這些已經越來越失能越來越需要照顧的但是任由85% 800萬的人像土石油一樣的因為隨著他們年紀越來越大未來都是高齡者一定越來越多"},{"start":11253.578,"end":11281.866,"text":"那這高齡者如果越來越多你有多少的錢可以來用照護措施來解決這問題嗎一定無解的嘛所以我們要避免的是讓這些避免這些人像土石流一樣的高齡社會來臨嘛一定要佔人口的總數一定會越來越多但是我們的比例一定不能讓它增加對不對我們佔就是需要照護的比例那如何做到當然一定是要發展性政策嘛雙軌並行我們現在只有單軌"},{"start":11283.308,"end":11289.554,"text":"這兩個必須為什麼他有所不同學理不同目標不同不能混為一談混為一談就是沒有解方嘛OK 下來這個院長你也看到了大家"},{"start":11310.151,"end":11310.591,"text":"主席"},{"start":11340.694,"end":11361.827,"text":"我的頭在我的對面就是你就是你你知道你非常的重要我們現在來看日本怎麼做日本在1995年就有高齡社會對策基本法30年前欸人家30年前就有這個我們看他的第15條在內閣府要設立高齡社會對策會議"},{"start":11364.805,"end":11367.97,"text":"第16條 會長有內閣總理大臣擔任 就是我們的行政院長"},{"start":11372.488,"end":11396.479,"text":"當然不是只有這樣的單人 也不是一個會議 它底下要幹事 要很多的管考KPI預算期程不能只是靠現在用秘書會編各部會 然後在局限你現行的組織框架政策工具法令還有缺乏的訓練的情況之下來會編這是沒辦法去扛起這個大責的 院長你認同嗎"},{"start":11398.494,"end":11423.252,"text":"不僅認同我們也是朝這個方向我們有社會福利推動委員會那也是由院長來召集的雖然不是跟日本這樣一個單一的訴求我們一定會把那個議題啊剛剛陳時中政委所努力過的這種過程放在裡面我覺得有誠意沒有決心決心要做就要做到底其實也不用效法日本我們自己行政院就有了只是看你重不重視這個關心問題"},{"start":11426.038,"end":11445.093,"text":"我們現在行政院這個效能做得不錯是人員跟檢探辦公室已經有這個檢探辦公室可以依照中央行政組織機關基準法第28條就可以成立這些組織編制所以現在法令由派任然後要有召集人要有副院長以上的人來擔任"},{"start":11446.034,"end":11446.714,"text":"執行長：主任：副主任：分組業務"},{"start":11468.788,"end":11484.876,"text":"這樣子這件事情﹐人口的問題涉及的13個部位都來了再看看有沒有決心而已有決心就應該要比照這樣的方式才有辦法而這個解決是未來台灣一半人口的幸福"},{"start":11485.692,"end":11511.726,"text":"跟委員報告不僅決心還有行動在社會福利推動委員會召開的19次會議當中跟委員報告17到19次這幾次裡面都有把壯世代的議題列為一個討論那是不是我們會後可以把這個討論的重點再跟委員做詳細的說明跟報告因為我知道前面的問題啦就是真的是我也看得出院長的誠意但是我們沒有找到問題的核心"},{"start":11512.446,"end":11513.688,"text":"明年1月1號開始台灣進入超高齡社會現在"},{"start":11529.639,"end":11557.498,"text":"大家在看 包括媒體 輿論 現在你可以看所有雜誌都在做搞領議題大家在等著 我們行政院竟然在這裡當中放棄了領導權沒有回應 然後阿里里啦啦叫各部位自己自行處理這樣子大家怎麼會安心呢這樣子大家怎麼會有信心呢所以呢 院長可否承諾在行政院設立專責的壯士在政策辦公室可否"},{"start":11558.591,"end":11580.843,"text":"我們沒有把它放到各部會的秘書工作我像我們陳時中政委一直在召集這樣的工作他已經到了一個院級的一個工作了但是要比照像那個檢探那個辦公室這樣的編制按照這樣的組織法來成立你那個只是交代你給他要馬兒跑但是不給他吃草"},{"start":11581.263,"end":11584.506,"text":"我會緊記剛剛委員所說的有想法還要有決心還要下去行動我跟你講我們的決心都是夠的行動或許剛開始我們在收集更完整的資料但最後我們就會收斂"},{"start":11604.826,"end":11605.087,"text":"提出幾個重點計畫"},{"start":11620.84,"end":11634.436,"text":"這是一個希望工程的問題撫養筆的問題少子化的問題社福要破產的問題ESG所有的這些的問題都跟這件事情有關各部位都有問題"},{"start":11635.905,"end":11656.998,"text":"行政院還不扛起這個責任來我們會扛起我們負擔起這個責任因為現在可以成立嗎我們在社福推動委員會當中已經有這個議題我也要經過大家在共同討論我們是不是有需要提升轉換或是強化相關的組織大家來討論之後院長你是領導我講這件事情我非常清楚了"},{"start":11657.458,"end":11657.478,"text":"委員﹚"},{"start":11676.698,"end":11678.58,"text":"社會福利委員會的思維那個就單軌你再把這個放在這個單軌底下就死路一條啦"},{"start":11699.147,"end":11727.407,"text":"保證死路一條我們已經搞太久了啦或者是我們國發會他現在已經有一個人口對策的一個相關的組織我們可以把它做內容功能的強化是不是請主委來說明一下我跟委員報告一下我剛剛跟陳政委有做討論我們認為整個人口的問題都必須被探討不是只有壯世代從年輕人要不要生小孩一路到老所以我們希望成立一個人口對策的辦公室"},{"start":11727.927,"end":11728.848,"text":"所以你的意思就是在國發會設立一個人口政策辦公室"},{"start":11751.121,"end":11777.846,"text":"跟我們報告日前我們討論過人口政策的時候大概都有這樣交換意見只是還沒有把它當作一個純熟對外發表的過程所以我說我還跟陳政委還有社福推動委員會跟國發會我們在做一個比較完整的規劃我覺得推出來不是一個空的架構空的組織他必須要精神內容跟計劃齊成這樣我們才能夠對後續的工作有十足的掌握"},{"start":11782.158,"end":11804.345,"text":"我跟院長報告現在在馬上進入超高齡社會了你今天在這裡不能做承諾沒有決心那全民都看到我們有動作我們有行動這是一個決心的問題我們是有絕對的承諾面對人口的問題壯士代是人口問題的一部分"},{"start":11805.556,"end":11828.636,"text":"對但是非常核心的一部分好嗎是的非常核心而且跟你講這跟高齡化跟少子化是一體制兩面掌握三分之的財富金管會是這樣子這些財富都鎖在這裡年輕人沒有未來變成食水經濟包括這長壽經濟是為年輕人的未來最重要的產業發展包括教育包括文化所有的層面來我們看下一頁"},{"start":11830.925,"end":11831.345,"text":"我個人也不會認為銀髮是海嘯"},{"start":11898.051,"end":11921.09,"text":"謝謝吳春城委員的質詢：也謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第24位林俊憲委員質詢謝謝主席本席邀請我們行政院卓院長歡迎再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":11929.192,"end":11957.373,"text":"議員好議員長好議員長辛苦了沒有沒有民生問題最重要我拿幾點來教議員探討一下好議員長你如果聽過最近這1年多來非常嚴重的一個問題駕車牌假車牌這兩個車牌一人一人駕你有沒有看得出來沒人看得出來警察也看不出來都看不出來你如果那個比較駕什麼就是說"},{"start":11958.479,"end":11973.614,"text":"第一個,交通部要求的幾點的那幾個辨識方法你把車牌拔起來放在手上你就看不到了在這裡,我們要了解,為什麼車牌在最近這幾天以來變得這麼嚴重這應該是我們要探訪的原因,以前車牌"},{"start":11980.424,"end":11999.639,"text":"一年差不多幾十件警察抓到了我講的是有被查獲的大概一年都幾十件但到今年已經變六百多件 幾十倍了如果沒抓到我不知道多少了這基中你為什麼要用假車牌"},{"start":12002.677,"end":12027.449,"text":"大概有將近4成﹐38%這經濟上的統計是因為他沒有車牌用吊牌﹐吊扣車牌那為什麼會被吊扣車牌其中我發覺有一個正相關我們在去年我們修改道教條例那裡有一條很嚴重的就是說嚴重超速"},{"start":12028.727,"end":12051.48,"text":"來,我們來定義什麼叫嚴重超數啊,你懂嗎?本地是超過數限60公里啦,今年我們改做40公里啦你看那個嚴重超數的案件,本地一年都滿幾件啊,你看看每一年都1萬多件啊,那你去年這麼一改啊,2023年啊"},{"start":12053.831,"end":12077.357,"text":"膨脹4倍 變6萬2千多件 1萬5變6萬2每一件都要白牽牌喔那今年欸 今年到8月 已經5萬6千多件了我大家照這個速度 今年大家有8萬件啦也就是說喔 年中超過40 你就白牽牌 白牽牌要靠半年啦"},{"start":12079.039,"end":12103.99,"text":"不是啦 就差不多中間有十萬隻車 十萬隻車牌靠在我們手裡第一個 我們想要做什麼 為什麼你要改我們修法的一個目的第一個 希望能夠遏阻違法或是改善違法的狀況你這個規定把它改掉 不但沒有 要越來越嚴重這其中有很多啦 可能就是誤觸規定 誤觸法律"},{"start":12107.554,"end":12133.592,"text":"我們交通的規範我們有三個E嘛第一個E就是Education你要給用路人走路也好 開車也好 摩托車也好 你給他教要求你的職業規定是什麼第二就是政府的交通工程Engineering第三就是Enforcement你第三才是處分啦我們現在第二天還沒做我們就直接去換"},{"start":12136.572,"end":12157.812,"text":"第二項是政府要做什麼呢?我們的訴訟有合法嗎?其實如果他訴訟道路啦,我們現在改革他很好喔他看道啦,他玩道喔,哇,他很好開的你如果開7、8站喔,你都沒什麼感覺結果他的訴訟你有辦法改嗎?40所以你很容易就誤觸法結果我們的訴訟規定合理嗎?"},{"start":12162.298,"end":12191.04,"text":"快速道路你只要施工數千萬隻三十那你為所在他只要十四萬隻車就行了那一把開車的人他不會覺得他會開很快你知道現在車越走越好所以他經過那個地方他擺幾個三角錐你曬過後你可能會超速四十你會被嚇到你就是為嚴重超速所以調車牌才會增加很多我不知道你們大家注意到沒有"},{"start":12192.213,"end":12197.475,"text":"委員長 上次就是你沒有簽白"},{"start":12222.844,"end":12224.185,"text":"所以假車牌很氾濫而且很容易買"},{"start":12251.599,"end":12278.104,"text":"現在我們要怎麼動記者牌賣賣你沒辦法動這你要看部會啊因為我們現在發覺這個問題之後所以我們政府當然有要求嘛你去電商買不到了你知道一般的電商啦什麼Yahoo啦、蝦皮啦你買不到了但是啊你在一個網路平台翠啦、抖音啦、臉書啦來我看幾張印章你看一下"},{"start":12278.976,"end":12279.537,"text":"現在要怎麼處理?有什麼方法?"},{"start":12296.461,"end":12318.332,"text":"報告委員一方面我們會增加他偽造的難度也就是我們明年開始我們的車牌會做新的版本把防偽的技術再更加的加強在明年度我們會來處理這是第一點那第二點針對罰則的部分我們有考慮說要把使用假車牌的罰則來提高那一方面他有罰則提高二方面其實他有刑罰這個部分"},{"start":12320.133,"end":12321.594,"text":"但是我們也要訴求一點,這要讓議員跟部長參考"},{"start":12345.424,"end":12346.024,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":12366.792,"end":12393.104,"text":"在某一些路段不合理的限速但是大家經過那一段卻沒有辦法遵守的話我們應該從這個人性化的檢討第一個啦我平常在台南做的啦有幾條很容易觸法的道路啦以兩線道速限50假設合理啦以到阿扁變四線道速限也50用路的人就很容易觸法嘛所以你這個規定合理嘛"},{"start":12393.917,"end":12408.063,"text":"我意思就是說,你應該中央跟地方政府,因為有的樹線是地方政府你領的啦主管局管是哪個單位就是說你應該要調整一些不合理的啦第二就是說,你發人還是發車?因為我講你車的車手是人不對還是車不對?那有的車輛喔,可能是他,是這位人民他生活的必需品或是他做生意要行,或是他出來家庭用車"},{"start":12424.039,"end":12446.914,"text":"他要上下班啊,他要載孩子啊,要載家裡的老人啊你現在車子擺在那裡,他生活要怎麼辦?所以基本上應該是要著重在處罰人嘛你開車的人,人家的份量要多少?但是我們現在的委員長喔,很多的受理逮不下來就違規了案件啊,越來越多啊,所以你現在給人家捐給車子"},{"start":12447.967,"end":12466.159,"text":"我認為這都要紓克啦 要做一個判定好不好我一直在國際法律沒有一個法律每一個會期每一年都修改 只有一個道交條例偏向駕駛人 修來修去"},{"start":12473.7,"end":12503.173,"text":"都沒有辦法有一個完整的思考我希望我現在的部長來我們要好好地監督這個部門不應該造成不必要的民怨還是說為什麼你收到法律這個法律你改這樣有合理嗎你嚴強敲鎖你從六十八改到四十要怎麼改可以啊為什麼暗箱丟不下來沒有合理的地方在裡面你的事先你有條件你應該是政府改正的部門做好事你改法律你不準時我給你處分"},{"start":12503.851,"end":12505.392,"text":"現在因為我們每一年報表的數字現在增加四倍五倍"},{"start":12532.236,"end":12543.367,"text":"責勝 使用記者牌 抓到案件 警告10倍這絕對有一定關聯的正相關這問題跟交通有關聯 世界普通人有三件事我要向議長報告一項"},{"start":12551.531,"end":12576.828,"text":"這次我們在台南本市跟我們企駁新年的賴慧媛委員我都一直在請出請出的我也看到自己的蔡議員委員也在請出這條就是所有的台37 太保道新年要就是高鐵橋下道路各地腳踏的道路這道路 第一 一定希望政府來開票"},{"start":12580.051,"end":12604.899,"text":"前陣子你評估都說沒有那個階段沒有那個需要其實現在地方發展已經不一樣了這五六年來已經很大的變化了地方喔加科你也要創立啊跟他放在分區啊所以下去你跟人科應該形成一個科技攔戴嘛這也是印度的這個未來你要做的風雲嘛那麼新年跟台北這是附近兩個最重要的這個"},{"start":12608.112,"end":12631.149,"text":"這是程式啦 你這樣來看你看說你若是對泰婆要來信仰好 信仰要泰婆也好你目前只能招藍線跟深藍線一個是高速公路 一個是縱貫路 都要繞一大圈只有黃線 不只是這條啦 個體叫比較多 就是台山的西線"},{"start":12633.14,"end":12655.488,"text":"最快速直接就可以連結泰寶跟新營因為台南市非常長我們台南是一個長條形的它的K8尤其是大新營其實它跟嘉義反而是一個生活圈所以你應該連結這兩個地方尤其你現在如果這兩雙 你看得到嗎?各地叫到哪裡去新營的東北邊是新營港口"},{"start":12661.135,"end":12661.255,"text":"主席"},{"start":12679.964,"end":12680.124,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":12694.414,"end":12717.591,"text":"平估不具效益或是不可行的任何的交通建設或許現在情勢改變了我們會重新的來評估那麼剛剛委員所提到的這個臺37線從臺南嘉義這個路段先到科學園區的設置他應該有其新興的一些不瞞您說陳部長跟我講過這件事情剛剛他也很清楚的說他正在努力當中"},{"start":12720.433,"end":12749.179,"text":"那有機會啦,不然你給我做多少,拜託到院長來積極另外剩下一點時間,我要先感謝卓院長明年寬烈的治水預算因為極端氣候,這個落後,尤其這套風態,我們在南部會很恐怖但是我們台灣過去的秩序,真的好啦我想說,目前每年還有一條錢,就是前瞻預算治水的第5期"},{"start":12750.759,"end":12772.944,"text":"關於台南,台南的頭港、中軍區、集盟區、大島區、鹹水區、六地的寮、龍泥門、安順寮、新甸寮、青寮、老祖、古阿港,以及八中區的整體這部分,就像議長那樣來支持但是未來有一個比較重要的,就是巴掌市的政治,這未來進入第三期的手段"},{"start":12782.116,"end":12806.101,"text":"請議長一定要把這個博文做好事我們過去的秩序有進步八八風災啦十幾年前的八八風災啦 台南陰五萬五千公頃今年這道啦這個風災啦 凱利颱風啦比八八風災落的火更多但陰水啊 存不到存不到三百五十公頃對五萬幾到三十五啦所以這個進步很大但是還是有一些"},{"start":12807.964,"end":12811.506,"text":"希望在野黨支持明年的預算又有很多的民生預算"},{"start":12840.276,"end":12841.037,"text":"臨近縣委指詢：卓院長備詢"},{"start":21610.299,"end":21611.039,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請卓榮泰院長麻煩請卓院長備選"},{"start":21649.315,"end":21664.992,"text":"外圍好好 院長好我想 院長其實今天要跟您討論的一些議題在上個會期時期也跟您討論過但是我們希望今天能有一些進度那在上個會期本期有跟您質詢過桃園市這個近年來的人口年增率高達1.32%"},{"start":21667.114,"end":21667.294,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":21685.191,"end":21708.727,"text":"只有438.18億那再度纏連纏連什麼就是六都最低所以今天我才把這問題重新再來跟院長討論一次那你看看我們桃園去創稅名列前茅但是我們的補助款全國倒數第三扣掉離島我覺得這個對我們桃園已經是非常不公平了那當然我覺得等一下我們可以再來討論這個財化法的問題但是在現在我們覺得對桃園這麼不公平的補助之下"},{"start":21716.393,"end":21736.853,"text":"中央還以現實執行非法訂設服支出為理由﹐來扣減了桃園市1億的補助款﹐這1億真的非常的多﹐而且這個數字是全國扣最多的一個數字﹐所以我想院長﹐其實我們這一次您用現實執行非法訂設服支出﹐其實我們真的要替桃園叫屈﹐"},{"start":21737.614,"end":21765.232,"text":"因為我們其實是在執行其實中央有很多的政策也許中央做得不完善或者中央做不到但是地方政府來協助來做但是我們不了解為什麼這樣子還要遭到扣除我們的補助款這是一個我想我們不能接受那同時我想其實各縣市都一樣我們不管人口結構需求的差異或者是這個政策目標不同但是我們根據地方制度法或者是才化法我們這個地方政府的社會福利的業務我們是可以"},{"start":21766.334,"end":21770.862,"text":"自行根據因地制宜差異化提出來的以上我講的院長認同嗎"},{"start":21772.403,"end":21776.486,"text":"我們來談看看桃園市有沒有違反或是不是遵守的那我想院長請教您一下您同不同意少子化是國安問題"},{"start":21796.778,"end":21816.201,"text":"當然同意,而且非常的嚴重那既然是國安問題,就是中央跟地方必須要一起來解決的但我們看這幾年,其實中央做的成果並不好我不是說中央沒有做,而是其實這個成果我們可以看得到從數字上看起來,其實人口也呈現負成長那目前這個生不如死的狀況,我想院長有掌握著嘛"},{"start":21816.661,"end":21833.102,"text":"那所以你看我們地方政府也為了要協助中央或者是我們自己的縣市去解決那我們包括這個提高生育率的這個協助國安解決問題的策略其實非常多我想我唸給你聽有幾個我們桃園市真的做得很好的地方包括我們這個五歲幼兒教育的助學金"},{"start":21833.502,"end":21849.728,"text":"好運專車﹚動軟補助﹚產後憂鬱心理諮商﹚國中小營養午餐免費這以上哪一項不是因應少子化我們來解決國安問題提出來的一些福利那我不瞭解今天為什麼我們去補重要的不足"},{"start":21850.188,"end":21866.331,"text":"我們去做一件對我們少子化有幫助的事情那我們對這個孩子下一代或者是對我們的這個產婦孕婦提高生育率有很多的誘因那結果呢我們幫忙解決問題但我們卻要受到中央這樣的懲罰還要扣我們這個補助稅款這怎麼對呢這怎麼會公平呢"},{"start":21867.093,"end":21867.493,"text":"我請部長能夠說明一下"},{"start":21881.584,"end":21884.107,"text":"有關中央統籌分配稅款的部分"},{"start":21903.306,"end":21908.968,"text":"我們來談有沒有違反規定或相關法條或標準剛剛我們桃園市有在做動軟補助"},{"start":21928.275,"end":21945.437,"text":"我們桃園市在去年推出動軟的營養金補助之後我們接著看到臺北市新北市新竹苗栗雲林都跟進不打緊我們連衛福部衛福部在這今年年底也預計要推出醫療性的動軟補助可見這是一個好的政策這是第一個"},{"start":21946.438,"end":21968.352,"text":"這麼好的政策各縣市跟進 衛福部也跟進我們桃園市推出這樣的政策其實中央應該要鼓勵才對不可以拿這個當作扣除我們補助金的一個理由再來我想主席黨在這裡我們看到其實在101年度起我們創設了一個對地方社會福利的預警制度這有三點的一個考核的衡量就是說"},{"start":21968.852,"end":21993.335,"text":"有沒有這個超過現行中央法規的標準有沒有超過中央所定的一致性標準以及第三項地方自行開辦社會福利措施且編列金額大院長大家有瞭解嗎這三項我們再來看以上這三項我覺得你們一定會同意這都是原則性的規範它沒有一個特定的項目也沒有一個認定的標準是都沒有的還是院長有"},{"start":21995.953,"end":22017.804,"text":"但是各項補助要量力而為啊人民會希望中央地方政府多給他一些生活上的照顧我想你同意這是一個原則性的規範量力或者是編列金額大到底什麼是大什麼是小量力什麼叫量力"},{"start":22018.584,"end":22023.545,"text":"社會保險、社會救助、社會服務、國民就業以及醫療保健等等五項分得很清楚可是我們看到你們其實糾正桃園市政府的理由之一叫做"},{"start":22039.889,"end":22040.249,"text":"中和以上"},{"start":22056.92,"end":22077.116,"text":"您可能覺得扣這個一億不多那這個要來懲罰我們懲罰什麼我也不知道那但我想您應該不會這樣做可是呢我本期在這裡真的要告訴您我想桃園市不但過去在才化法以及這個補助上面對我們不盡公平我們都還沒有爭取到一個公平的待遇那結果你又反過來再扣我們錢"},{"start":22077.816,"end":22103.006,"text":"我覺得這個是我們完全沒辦法接受的何況我們在解決中央的問題再者我再舉另外一個例子讓你知道我們的財政有多辛苦我們的囤房稅在囤房稅2.0今年是7月上路他們施政委員很配合中央政策我們都配合所以我們把單一自住稅率跟一年內代銷的房屋稅我們都把它調降但是囤房稅我們還是配合對不對還是配合做可是我們這樣計算起來我們的稅損9000多萬"},{"start":22104.947,"end":22124.836,"text":"也就是說你又扣我一億 囤房稅我配合中央政策我又少九千多萬 一來一往兩億的預算所以我想 院長 我有一個請求我想我們這個財化法的修正在9月4號財政部已經邀集了我們各地方政府來徵集意見 雖然之前也有做那這次聽說也獲得了初步分配指標的一個共識"},{"start":22126.437,"end":22154.856,"text":"我們希望行政院能不能儘速這院長上個會期我也提過那我希望說我們儘速提出我們的版本那麼同時對於今天我們所討論的非法定社會福利的支出去扣減補助款的這個部分我希望院長能不能承諾說我們在三個月之內我們提出這個檢討還有能不能提出一些具體的標準不要再模擬兩可量力啦大啦小啦我覺得我們有沒有一個比較具體的三個月之內能不能把它做一個檢討"},{"start":22155.396,"end":22178.272,"text":"首先剛剛委員說懲罰性的扣減一億倒不是原意不再懲罰而是要提醒桃園市政府要健全自己的財務因為上一年度的決算短處了63.2億那下一年度補助增加23.6億你知道嗎其實一個縣市政府的財政啊如你們所說的不管短處啦惡化啦他的原因絕對不是單一的"},{"start":22178.592,"end":22179.112,"text":"財化法的部分請部長再"},{"start":22208.029,"end":22212.004,"text":"長話法我們早時間再談,但是這個部分你覺得可以嗎?"},{"start":22213.749,"end":22238.336,"text":"你說補助的部分補助我們一向都有中央地方一個補助的標準在執行不管是計劃型的我想這樣子啦我是在這裡嚴正的表達您這樣子就是扣除這個疑義我們不能接受那還有囤房稅這個9千萬對桃園來說也很辛苦所以我們希望是不是日後我們有這個計劃型的補助行政院能夠多支持一下可以嗎"},{"start":22239.116,"end":22239.376,"text":"市長在"},{"start":22262.948,"end":22263.649,"text":"我會特別注意,謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":22279.537,"end":22295.528,"text":"好 那我們繼續我想剛剛除了我說的對桃園的諸多不公平之外我們要錢你沒給我們錢我們要補助沒有給我們補助但你給我們很多缺電啦跳電啦等等那這個在今年4月開始起5個月之內桃園的這個停跳電高達178次"},{"start":22298.45,"end":22316.616,"text":"27萬戶左右受到很大的影響 其實怨聲載道我相信這個民院身為一個行政院長是應該要去重視跟解決的上個會期的時候我有要求經濟部要成立外部的停跳電事故調查委員會當時也承諾會成立 不曉得四個月過去的現在這個委員會成立了嗎"},{"start":22317.472,"end":22319.073,"text":"有還是沒有有還是沒有所以有還是沒有"},{"start":22339.722,"end":22362.623,"text":"目前有還是沒有?我們有在調查目前有成立還是沒有成立?我們有成立一個機制好那你不用說你可以先下去因為今天顯然為你後面經濟部所有的事情大概都是這種回答因為他沒有辦法了解然後也沒有辦法代表這個經濟部的部長所以今天我想經濟部的事情我還是先請教院長如果沒辦法回答的那我們就是這個會後給我一個資料好不好是的謝謝"},{"start":22363.724,"end":22390.751,"text":"我希望這個外部停跳電事故調查委員會之前有說要成立起來我們就積極把它成立起來因為這個調查事故的原因很重要而且會有公信力我想這個對大家都好臺電的董事長曾文森說了一句八月的時候他說桃園以北五百萬瓦以上的大型數據中心一律不合工這句話其實真的引起軒然大波請問一下院長原因是什麼"},{"start":22391.718,"end":22417.307,"text":"第一個我們覺得包括國外的知名的廠商大廠要來台灣設立任何的資訊中心研發中心設廠我們都歡迎但也要顧慮到我們整個的平均的分配包括土地的取得包括能源的使用等等跟人力的配置那這個我希望在整個國家的整體的策略要求底下我們來做這樣的規劃能夠跟國外的大廠取得協議"},{"start":22418.587,"end":22435.196,"text":"臺電跟經濟部講的缺電的問題 電網的問題您就是沒有提到那我想我來提一下 當時除了說桃園以北不合工之外同時還講了一個 這也是經濟部說的他說我們還是鼓勵科技業 但是請你優先到支持設立電廠的縣市"},{"start":22437.037,"end":22437.297,"text":"主席"},{"start":22458.803,"end":22474.84,"text":"全台發電將近五分之一我們現在桃園正在建三階天然氣接收站剛剛提到有13座燃氣機組也就是說我們其實是一個燃氣發電的重點城市"},{"start":22476.101,"end":22476.541,"text":"我今天要跟院長講 院長 如果"},{"start":22504.896,"end":22528.716,"text":"這個台電經濟部在這種說法上自行矛盾關我桃園我是不能接受的我們這麼多的發電在桃園桃園人犧牲然後還要有這些空屋那等等結果你剝奪掉我可以自行來把這個經濟做得更好的機會我不太能接受所以部長我想這樣的一個限制令院長能不能在這邊收回這個成命讓桃園有機會自己做經濟的發展"},{"start":22529.517,"end":22546.754,"text":"首先它不是限制令它是在設廠的過程當中我們就我們的能源提供給廠商一個參考跟標準那桃園包括剛剛委員所說的山階工程也在積極的進行當中那桃園的土地啦以及桃園的能源能不能接得上"},{"start":22547.294,"end":22549.237,"text":"講到這個電網執政8年了今年第9年了現在還在講這個電網有問題那之前怎麼都不休呢 對不對"},{"start":22567.498,"end":22596.179,"text":"所以我想院長我還是今天真的就是覺得中央對桃園真的不公平我們希望在這個部分可以重新檢討能夠來支持桃園那不要把桃園列進去好不好我們在總統指示下五千六百億的電網韌性的加強十年的工程我們會在2028年盡量把它完成包括經濟部包括台電都對這項工程極力的先合作跟著院長提醒有漂亮的數字但數字要落實才是成果"},{"start":22596.559,"end":22596.599,"text":"當然這個是"},{"start":22625.495,"end":22644.37,"text":"有其需要但是尊重地方政府所以這次你會尊重張善政市長的決定是嗎這個彭博長今天有一些新的說明今天才發生我請教說明院長所以您剛剛那樣的說法是會尊重張善政市長當然我們希望在橫頻的狀況底下能夠有新的說法大家再重新來考慮也是可以"},{"start":22644.71,"end":22647.754,"text":"所以經濟部跟環境部你們會要桃園市政府這個就是在這個撤銷的這個部分你們一樣會這一次再撤銷嗎"},{"start":22658.929,"end":22685.241,"text":"我們給彭博長今天他有一個新的標準跟說法出來我們中午的時候開了一個記者會因為我們全台灣體檢了SRF的廠商那桃園市有一些SRF的製造商那也有使用的那我們目前用的標準是全世界最嚴格的標準有一個國家有用SRF我們就用他最嚴格的標準所以重金屬等等所以我們已經訂出標準了那我們也同時也告知桃園市政府了"},{"start":22685.721,"end":22700.821,"text":"部長您是說用最嚴格的標準去監督他的意思是不是對沒錯沒錯所以呢這個現在的意思是說行政院今天問院長所以環境部跟經濟部你們主張要求桃園市政府要接受這三家SRF的入院是嗎"},{"start":22701.755,"end":22715.066,"text":"不是主張要求是用新的這個方式還是你們推薦跟地方政府再來商量我們不同意啊 桃園市政府現在不同意啊我們因為有新的作為那行政院的立場是希望他入園嗎我們希望能夠解決垃圾問題"},{"start":22716.223,"end":22733.16,"text":"用最新最好的方法來解決各地的認識問題我能理解了一句這樣子的答詢我想你們的態度還是跟以前一樣就是說你們希望這個SRF進來但你們又不願意負責任我想這個我再一次表達"},{"start":22733.78,"end":22734.06,"text":"請交通部長備詢"},{"start":22755.049,"end":22779.679,"text":"院長真的事事要替桃園市多著想真的我覺得地方執政真的不要去分藍綠就算桃園市民其實也是我們中華民國的國民在院會當中桃園市的代表列席代表跟我的對話是最多的陳部長今天有好一點嗎那天在委員會緊張對不對今天好 好多了"},{"start":22780.879,"end":22781.139,"text":"我坐火車我搭火車"},{"start":22800.394,"end":22823.235,"text":"我是這樣建議以後真的有來桃園是不是你也可以通知一下其實我們六位委員真的很願意陪你去看一看我們桃園是我希望你能夠排時間來桃園桃園有太多的重大建設需要部長能夠盡快去了解尤其是鐵路地下化部長有了解到嗎是 了解"},{"start":22823.915,"end":22847.654,"text":"這個不只是桃園的重大交通建設 同時也是全國非常 這我們國家的重大交通建設不過呢 四個月前在這裡 其實我總諮詢的時候 當時就有提到了工程嚴重延宕 非常嚴重延宕那現在不管是土建標還是基電標 目前都還有16個標是沒有標出去的啦四個月的時間 一個一個標案都沒有出去 其實這是很嚴重的"},{"start":22849.595,"end":22874.472,"text":"公程進度只要慢就是在凌遲我們桃園市的市民而且增加這個交通黑暗期我想您待過台中您也知道其實我們任何重大交通建設都是要快一點那這四個月當中我們這個工程的進度原本應該是要從35.33%要能夠提高到37.5%這個進度需要能夠有這個增加201%可是我們沒有所以適同我們的落後的進度從4%擴大到5%所以還是不斷的在落後"},{"start":22878.554,"end":22879.375,"text":"金費不足的部分有沒有編入明年度的預算"},{"start":22904.709,"end":22933.146,"text":"這個牽扯到桃園市甚至跟新北市都有相關那中央跟地方在這種財務分配的比例下是有一定的標準的院長那我們講到這個財務分配比例喔我想之前喔桃園市跟中央的分配是我們25%中央75%但是呢我必須要講這1048億的基礎之下我們同意這樣做因為我們橫著過我們的財政狀況嘛那現在你又要多增加將近800億桃園市現在的財政雪上加霜啊"},{"start":22933.666,"end":22948.792,"text":"那你如果還要再我們去負擔這25%我想我們是不能接受的所以我也希望跟院長跟部長來溝通跟請命說這769億我們希望能夠由中央全數來支持不要再讓桃園有這麼大的負擔了可以嗎"},{"start":22951.034,"end":22969.435,"text":"報告委員我們增加的經費除了當然是物價指數的問題物價調高了不少那其實還有一些部分是因為這個憑證的難演你應該也都很清楚那個部分就增加了100多億然後還有一些是這個文資的一些挖掘的發掘的部分確實也造成了一些延宕"},{"start":22969.875,"end":22970.416,"text":"花蓮0 台南12.5 嘉宜14"},{"start":22991.135,"end":22992.737,"text":"臺南市統籌分配稅還比我們更高所以我希望之前的25%我們是談好的"},{"start":23010.237,"end":23010.597,"text":"麻煩請衛福部請備選"},{"start":23033.732,"end":23063.232,"text":"委員長我想我就先提我想去年112年5月1號起我們新冠肺炎就從第5類的法定傳染病調整為第4類那指揮中心在這個時候也解散當時的發言人也是現在機關署的副署長羅一鈞也說這個新冠肺炎把這個等級調整跟流感相當中重症或併發症才需通報同時也有很多的醫學專家也都認定新冠肺炎這個流感化您同意嗎"},{"start":23064.012,"end":23073.418,"text":"新冠再度比照流感病發症 改名為新冠病發重症 放寬通報時效維福部的做法可否說是象徵新冠走向流感化或比照流感來辦理"},{"start":23091.349,"end":23091.449,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":23108.183,"end":23135.421,"text":"我想就在大家都以為現在疫情已經過去或者穩定的這個新冠肺炎事實上它其實是悄悄的捲土重來中而且進入到第六波的一個大流行在6月底7月初也就是我們說的27週28週甚至達到一個高峰單週單週的急診這個就診人數高達12萬8千多人那這個單週最高新增了987例的重症同時還有104例的死亡"},{"start":23136.241,"end":23136.381,"text":"是的"},{"start":23156.314,"end":23171.569,"text":"好 那我們再來看根據行政院110年合定的新興傳染病劑流感大流行的這個計畫裡面這個依據計畫中防疫物資儲備跟管理的指標我們對於流感的這個抗病毒藥物"},{"start":23172.25,"end":23173.211,"text":"新冠抗病毒藥物目前儲備量?"},{"start":23189.219,"end":23206.443,"text":"是的首先在這邊還是謝謝委員過去對防疫工作長多年來的一個關心跟幫忙那有關剛剛您提的問題我們抗毒因為抗病毒的藥其實蠻貴而且有效期所以我們一定要控制得相當好所以目前"},{"start":23207.211,"end":23209.313,"text":"抗病毒藥物充裕無餘"},{"start":23237.331,"end":23250.921,"text":"所以我們現在看到事實上我們的庫存到目前為止大概83萬份左右那暫走人口數大概3.5個百分點而已如果我們一樣是流感化其實這樣的備要我覺得打了一個大大的問號那我們再來看"},{"start":23253.163,"end":23276.383,"text":"因為現在馬上10月份了要進入秋冬了疫情會不會捲土再來會不會突然間有很大的一個變化那疫情會不會突然高漲我們不知道可是我們就是要做好準備嘛何況我們有以前的這個防疫的一個經驗所以呢我覺得我們再來看一個數字這個數字是疾管署統計的今年4月我們新冠累積的這個重症的這個個案數高達9900例"},{"start":23278.784,"end":23301.73,"text":"這個數字是我們同期流感病發症700餘例的14倍那同時新冠死亡大概1000例左右也是流感死亡個案100例的11倍所以我覺得如果我們都把它看成流感化那何以我們防疫的藥物儲備差那麼多我們對待這個流感跟對待新冠我們的SOP好像也差非常多"},{"start":23302.25,"end":23312.637,"text":"所以我想因應這個後新冠的疫情衛福部看起來好像是不是也沒有編列預算來購買快篩跟抗病毒的藥品 有嗎"},{"start":23313.291,"end":23342.081,"text":"我首先謝謝委員透過這麼重要老貴的時間提醒國人不要釣魚輕心這個是非常感激新冠跟流感我們現在同步阿會從10月1號開始第一階段針對65歲以上的國人予以施打第二階段11月1號開始6個月以上的小孩可以打新冠疫苗流感是在50到64歲我們既然排出了這樣的期程"},{"start":23342.521,"end":23347.028,"text":"我會要求衛福部一定要備足充備的藥源跟疫苗"},{"start":23354.229,"end":23373.581,"text":"我們已經有這個階段要施打這個疫苗了所以既然提出這個計畫衛福部就要準備充裕那現在有沒有編這個預算明年要買這個藥報告委員因為現在目前大概北大圍儲量有26萬份上課用42個月以上"},{"start":23374.301,"end":23381.044,"text":"那瑞德西韋可以用9個月以上那我們在年底會再採購一批那應該就可以來所以明年沒有編列預算對嗎明年度就暫時不用編列"},{"start":23393.089,"end":23416.36,"text":"但是沒有別列 但是我覺得這還是值得我們擔憂 院長我們今天在這邊不是要用指責或責怪 什麼做了什麼沒有做我覺得這件事非常的重要 我們必須要去看待它我們要知道其實現在如果我們備藥不足用藥又有受限 因為我們目前用藥是有限制嘛 備藥不足用藥又有受限 未來中重症或者死亡率它就有可能會提高"},{"start":23416.8,"end":23417.421,"text":"謝謝委員 再次謝謝 透過這樣的機會來提醒國人"},{"start":23431.604,"end":23432.985,"text":"謝謝萬美林委員的指訊 謝謝卓院長的備取"},{"start":23463.533,"end":23489.066,"text":"接下來我們請登記第26號鍾嘉賓委員質詢特別跟院會報告鍾嘉賓委員剛剛手術完畢今天是負傷質詢這個質詢精神令人感佩祝福嘉賓委員早日身體康復謝謝請是可以脫外套嗎脫外套可以"},{"start":23495.683,"end":23516.553,"text":"主席在堂列席的政府機關所長官員我們就有請卓院長還有交通部陳部長經濟部陳次長另外農業部跟環境部請伺機而動交通部跟經濟部請配選其他局部長先"},{"start":23518.554,"end":23544.491,"text":"總委員好請你務必保重注意你的手上的任何的沉重的負擔不要太大謝謝我想今天我們來進行114年施政報告我的對院長的總質詢大概就從我就任立委以來已經問過了59次的院會質詢今天是第60次其中院會的施政總質詢有17次"},{"start":23546.476,"end":23548.94,"text":"預算總質詢11次特別預算專案質詢31次我整理了一下問過兩次以上的題目"},{"start":23556.903,"end":23581.933,"text":"我在對照我們卓院長您的施政報告我很欣慰的要跟院長報告說我這20項問過兩次以上的題目當中有16個題目都涵蓋在您的施政報告當中所以告訴我另外4項我再補上面就有在這裡我特別的欣慰是提到說我過去關心青年的海外交流問了三次你打算在你的施政報告海外圓夢計畫你編了100億"},{"start":23584.195,"end":23605.035,"text":"另外我關心屏東的農特產品我們的冷鏈物流我們蘇前院長手中推動了100億的冷鏈您在今年繼續明年要推動變了9億另外我也關心了我們的中小企業的發展您也要挹注116億在中小企業照顧我們中小企業院長我要謝謝你"},{"start":23606.151,"end":23630.845,"text":"謝謝委員我也希望這些預算能夠得到不分朝野共同來支持嚴加審議畢竟我們預算審議合理我們地方建設人民才會受益這是我的第一個但你有沒有注意到院長我這裡面問最多的是哪一個題目你應該看得很清楚吧問最多的就是高鐵延伸屏東問了11次"},{"start":23632.899,"end":23660.279,"text":"問了11次好所以呢我要請教您左邊的陳部長部長您到屏東嘛然後呢您能不能告訴我目前規劃的左營案是誰任內宣布的從新左營到屏東左營案對從新左營到屏東這條路線現行的規劃的應該是蘇院長對蘇政商院長在2019年宣布的那您知道左營案新左營案被批評什麼問題嗎左院長你知道嗎"},{"start":23662.402,"end":23687.71,"text":"這車型的方向會造成乘車的不便所以有人說如果真的從新竹來拉到屏東 屏東一天沒有幾班啊因為單單是要你比個二 我不好意思說幾班好 但是呢 不久前我們高雄的立法委員也問了卓院長有人說要用一個高雄案通過高雄火車站您覺得你有聽到誰有不同的意見嗎"},{"start":23689.119,"end":23710.398,"text":"我聽到最近有提到高雄這個方案對那你知道陳祁邁市長怎麼說嗎他說不希望在挖10年工程的進行過程中再挖10年不要說挖啦再等個10年屏東鄉親也受不了啦所以呢身為屏東人我們對於高鐵延伸屏東"},{"start":23712.421,"end":23740.839,"text":"不能延宕 這沒能商量 這沒商量的餘地 絕對不能延宕但是路線呢 可以討論所以除了左營案 除了高雄案 有人提出台南案我們卓院長跟陳部長都不是台南人嘛齁我們來看一下 你們藏高鐵吧這個是目前的高鐵有個密碼他一字頭二字頭的是直達車三字頭跟六字頭的是蛙跳車還有呢 五字頭跟八字頭的是站站停"},{"start":23742.144,"end":23769.876,"text":"這當中阿 你們有沒有注意到所謂的六都 台北 桃園 膽橋 台中 台南 跟左營其實呢 它都達到60班 46班以上 有沒有注意到好 那麼陳部長 你們告訴我哪些地方的停的站次最少 次數最少十幾班的十七的嘛十七的 是不是包括了苗栗包括了彰化 包括了雲林"},{"start":23771.226,"end":23798.802,"text":"都跟非都高鐵停的班次數就不同院長您覺得這合理嗎高鐵為了服務根據他的服務的人數來決定班次嗎高鐵因為他趕著就是時效效率應該有一些車是快速到達某一個地方的但是後來我們為了增加對國人更多服務的範圍增設了很多的站那這些站也根據他的服務的人口我們設定適當的班次嗎那很坦白的你不要因為我是屏東人"},{"start":23799.212,"end":23814.304,"text":"你覺得屏東在這幾個都市戰中如果有涉戰他是跟台北板橋台中左營同級數還是跟苗栗彰化雲林同級數我們的持平的講你覺得我屏東人"},{"start":23815.154,"end":23842.309,"text":"當然在在評估包括高鐵南北延伸這兩個路段當中我們所評估的除了他靠站以及使用的效率之外我們還有更大的是一個全台灣整體軌道建設你不用要想要揣摩或討好我也很持平的說依照我們高鐵客觀的運量來說屏東如果加入高鐵營運初期大概跟我們的苗栗彰化跟雲林差不多的班次"},{"start":23843.129,"end":23870.256,"text":"好了那現在問題有解了有人說為什麼要從台南如果今天增加一個九字頭的列車它的行駛方式直接從台南拉到屏東未來還有可能往台東跟花蓮去這一條也可能是暫暫停的一個環島或者往東的高鐵的路線這樣子是不是就解決了新左營路線跟透過高雄火山路線一直遲遲不能決定的結果"},{"start":23871.209,"end":23895.62,"text":"院長去思考一下可以嗎這個我要請部長再跟這個交通規劃的專家學者好像在討論的過程當中這個創意是沒有被討論過的陳部長可以研究一下接下來三個小問題陳部長你很快的爽快答應就好了台鐵六塊駐車站要遷移1.6公里在特區的台鐵先告價可不可以"},{"start":23896.4,"end":23897.081,"text":"這是誰當院長的時候核定的?"},{"start":23911.112,"end":23938.143,"text":"2018年賴清德院長賴院長現在總統了6年了好不容易今年9月環評通過有人說動工還有2年你會責成部長可不可以趕進度趕進度好不好院長請部長趕進度把東西第二項快速道路趕快做好不好環評通過了好部長這個他說已經在說再趕進度了好第三個我們屏東車站打從誕生開始就經常在漏雨"},{"start":23939.063,"end":23964.691,"text":"前不久的凱米颱風真的漏漏亂七八糟所幸目前我們看到我邀請台鐵去會刊這10年的問題終於有幾要增加4000萬要增加風雨走廊但是目前還是有小小滴滴部長可以承諾盡快完成不淹水可以嗎好沒問題我們來努力接下來我請教院長你認為屏東科技園區屏科和高鐵完工後在我們屏東可以創造多少的就業人口"},{"start":23967.563,"end":23970.425,"text":"當年2000年屏東加工出口區成立的時候那時候現在屏東科技團園園區從24年到現在"},{"start":23979.616,"end":23999.019,"text":"臺積電"},{"start":23999.179,"end":24003.143,"text":"請看下一個圖目前屏東科技產業園區是24年前的道路規劃現在的高鐵特定區全區是307公頃第一期是158公頃當中可以用到科學園區跟產業園區的不到100公頃"},{"start":24018.336,"end":24018.656,"text":"是不這樣子?"},{"start":24042.881,"end":24063.739,"text":"就是我們南部的這邊來我給你看下一個圖也就是說目前你看到的右上角的屏東科學園區我們行政院投入了60億做區段徵收跟工程經費編列60億但是不要忽略了未來的發展包括底下的汽車專業區既有的科技產業園區他也需要吸納這麼多的就業人口部長"},{"start":24064.78,"end":24088.384,"text":"你願不願意多中央多投入把南區的聯外交通一併提升改善不要只停留在24年前的水準目前的規劃是台一線跟線道189作為主要但是現在縣政府他們現在正在辦一個可行性的研究是針對屏東科技園區的第二條聯外道路這個部分目前正在做可行性研究可行性研究出來之後交通部會協助他生活圈道路的部分"},{"start":24089.084,"end":24114.07,"text":"院長請全力支持不要只有台一線北邊,台一線南邊既有的產業園區經濟部市長要點頭了你們是不是希望中央繼續支持市長是不是這樣會過去所以道路好接下來我再問一個院長我們來看一下前瞻基礎建設你知道全台灣自來稅普及率最低的是哪個地方嗎"},{"start":24116.246,"end":24139.794,"text":"市長也知道我問的一定是屏東啦委員會問的當然就是您最關心的地方屏東呢我們在105年的時候呢普及率不到50%兩戶就有一戶不是用自來水但是過去8年我們提升到了7成為什麼因為過去這8年自來水無自來水地區的改善計畫第3期第4期多虧有了前瞻特別預算的挹注總共提供了143億將近超過70億用在屏東"},{"start":24144.181,"end":24165.426,"text":"院長 屏東很感謝中央前瞻的無自來水地區的改善計畫編了140幾億將近一半用在屏東讓我們的普及率從不到5成將近到7成謝謝中央但是接下來我們來看一下今年前瞻最後一期接下來自來水地區的改善計畫第5期編了75億這75億通通要給屏東嗎"},{"start":24170.646,"end":24199.855,"text":"有沒有可能都給屏東無自來水地區的供水改善第5期在114到118年當中一共編列的是總數是106億106億我這邊的資料是75億那顯然是不夠的那106億可不可以給90億給屏東因為屏東要達到了九成達到全國平均還要90億有可能嗎這個五年的計畫還是要請經濟部透過水公司來衡量當然最需要的地方一定先到達"},{"start":24200.635,"end":24228.882,"text":"好那所以院長跟市長可以承諾未來無自來水地區的自來水普及計畫我們的預算盡量的來支援屏東讓屏東不要說8年啦4年內能夠大幅的提升接近全國的水準院長可以承諾嗎我們努力達到這樣的好謝謝接下來我們請那個環境部彭部長跟農業部陳部長好來我現在考試一下兩位部長還沒到的時候交通部跟經濟部請回你聽過平地照理沒有對不起"},{"start":24229.38,"end":24256.23,"text":"平地造林平地造林好聽過你認為平地造林他是要做水土保育還是做農業生產他保育的功能應該多吧保育的部分比較多ㄟㄧㄤㄧㄤ答錯了部長請你告訴院長當年的平地造林是為了什麼而來的我想當年的平地造林是因為我們加入WTO以後那針對一些比較地利比較"},{"start":24262.449,"end":24278.793,"text":"所以很多人都誤會了平地造林不是為了水土保持甚至後來他是為了農地減量他當然有一些環境綠美化有些棲地保留的效果但是請問一下部長陳部長平地造林的投資效應你覺得值得延續嗎目前投入多少錢"},{"start":24279.733,"end":24308.777,"text":"投入了103億對不對是那麼總共呢台塘的有將近10500公頃私有土地將近3000公頃你覺得繼續值得推嗎我想趙林的一些推動的政策是一定會一直持續的因為趙林後續平地趙林的政策一直推你確定嗎我告訴你平地趙林目前有什麼問題啊因為他趙林的目的他不知道做經濟林他只要存活率他種的很密根本不成材不具經濟效益"},{"start":24309.477,"end":24334.412,"text":"另外因為疏於管理 造成林地的農地髒亂 排水堵塞 很多的問題所以平地造林退場之後 很多人就撤掉了畢業人員都撤走了那你覺得 院長你覺得一個花了20年 投入了100多億的平地造林退場之後就一無是處嗎 有沒有什麼想法來我們給黃部長一個提示你覺得可不可以來創造我們的碳會"},{"start":24335.556,"end":24356.862,"text":"第一個是剛剛委員寫的海面城市是一個很好的做法 如果我們經過一些設計你跳到下一題了沒關係 我想那個委員我先說明一下現在目前平地教練陸陸續續已經達到了一個可採拔的那我們分三類 一類是他具有生態棲地的這些生態棲地的我們保留這個部分我們會繼續保留有沒有可以回復農用的"},{"start":24358.462,"end":24386.74,"text":"阿有一部分大概700公頃會施由林裡面700公頃會恢復農藥那有沒有可以做光電的然後另外有一部分是可以持續去養護以後他以後可以成為生產林的部分大概分三類那這三類我們後續都會相關的配套部長一直不敢鬆口啦其實齁台塘那些地齁那些林根本原來就沒有啦砍掉的重電也差不多而已但很多人忌諱因為砍出是不好的事情來我要告訴彭部長其實呢我們來思考一下氣候極端化"},{"start":24388.001,"end":24388.301,"text":"那陳副長你接受嗎"},{"start":24409.208,"end":24409.308,"text":"主席"},{"start":24433.7,"end":24434.061,"text":"翁曉林委員"},{"start":24465.64,"end":24465.86,"text":"主席"},{"start":24483.285,"end":24483.445,"text":"法務部部長請稍待"},{"start":24500.054,"end":24521.27,"text":"院長好您上任至今已經超過4個月了以您過去豐富的政治經驗曾經擔任郭立法委員、行政院秘書長、民進黨主席我相信您應該能夠深刻的了解一句話就是國家要進步不能夠走回頭路大家要團結一致向前走"},{"start":24523.521,"end":24545.167,"text":"非常贊成這也是賴清德總統在選前的時候曾經說過的一段話那我也非常認同不過就是我看您這四個月來的表現卻讓我觀察到您怎麼好像像是在走20年前的陳水扁當時擔任總統朝小野大的時代那麼這個行政機關是帶頭這個行使抵抗權"},{"start":24548.749,"end":24557.766,"text":"反國會搞杯葛進行權力的對抗行政機關依法行政難道不是法治國的基本原則嗎您認同嗎"},{"start":24559.352,"end":24561.114,"text":"我希望卓院長您能夠真的尊重依法行政很重要的民主法治國家的原則"},{"start":24585.256,"end":24613.025,"text":"若連全國最高的中央行政機關 行政院都能夠帶頭搞對抗然後把法律踩在腳底下是法律於無物的話那麼臺灣還是法治國嗎我想可能就要成為獨裁國家了絕沒有這樣的做法而且依法行政是我心中最大的一個依序請問您知道為什麼這次立法院要退回中央政府總預算"},{"start":24614.614,"end":24640.356,"text":"我們彼此的溝通還尚待加強其實本期認為這個最主要的原因也是跟我剛剛講的一樣就是我們觀察到其實行政院尤其是您上任之後根本就是把立法院當空氣然後把國會所做的一些決議當成耳邊風那在這樣的一個情況之下立法院所做的修法和決議您完全不理會也不願意遵守"},{"start":24640.896,"end":24641.036,"text":"國務大臣"},{"start":24663.171,"end":24673.831,"text":"又不遵守我們通過的NCC組織法要求現任的NCC委員不可以再繼續留任仍然執意讓翁博宗副主委繼續代理主委"},{"start":24674.765,"end":24699.072,"text":"同時你也不依據新修正過的原住民進法補償條例去編足足夠的補償經費你也不甩立法院所做的各項決議包含像是調高工糧收購價格、調高健保點值以及電價動漲的決議還有要解除開放赴大陸的旅行團"},{"start":24700.497,"end":24711.836,"text":"那麼簡單來說就是行政院你該依法辦理的你不辦理你該編列預算的你不去編列預算這種態度在我們看來就是藐視立法權"},{"start":24714.499,"end":24742.049,"text":"是名譽無誤您口口聲聲說您要尋求溝通協調但是在我們的看到您現在的作為其實就是擺爛就是搞對立反正這個你們不重編這個行政院的預算我們看起來立法院也耐你們也無法這個對你們有什麼樣的其他的一個作為這樣子一個情況之下其實我真的感到非常的感慨"},{"start":24743.149,"end":24744.83,"text":"我剛剛所講的那些例子 有哪一個是錯的 有哪一個是假訊息不是 這都是"},{"start":24772.578,"end":24795.624,"text":"立法院執權刑事法就是最近很多委員在講的 院紀分立行政立法司法的 院次監察的院紀分立 我們要嚴守是的 你的院紀分立可是和必須要尊重的我只有三個原則 第一個就是讓機關正常運作第二個是 快速審查第三個我會依法行政立法院所通過的NCC組織法"},{"start":24796.044,"end":24805.371,"text":"為的是讓機關能夠正常運作為反了我們法律的通過接下來我想要再講的是說其實今天行政院退回中央政府總預算我們無非就是希望你們能夠重新編列合理的預算能夠考察民意體諒民間的疾苦不要把錢"},{"start":24825.245,"end":24826.246,"text":"委員應該知道原因為什麼會這麼高"},{"start":24843.25,"end":24861.748,"text":"委員知道預算為什麼會這麼高對我沒有請您回答我現在講就是說如果行政院你繼續把立法院當空氣那麼立法院也不會對你客氣最後呢國家搞的這個烏煙瘴氣民眾一肚子氣坦白說賴政府也占不到便宜"},{"start":24870.036,"end":24883.449,"text":"政府機關所編列的媒體宣傳經費的事情 其他的委員其實也有談到了那麼我在這邊我還是要重新提醒今年度的中央政府的公務預算就編列了將近15億"},{"start":24884.983,"end":24903.941,"text":"的業務宣導費用比去年113年的法定預算多了9億增高的幅度是65%那麼如果說我們再把其他的營業非營業基金還有這個公務預算的所有的媒體宣傳經費加起來已經超過了27億"},{"start":24906.761,"end":24935.395,"text":"在中間我們仔細的去調查研究也發現有5個部會機關每年編的宣傳費用高達上億這包含內政部衛福部經濟部勞動部和農業部這5個部會機關每年都編了上億元的媒體宣傳費用如果說把這5個機關的媒體宣傳費用加起來是佔整個中央政府的業務的宣傳費用的一半以上"},{"start":24938.723,"end":24959.339,"text":"請問 院長我們的政府有必要去花這麼多的錢做宣傳廣告嗎政府必要把自己國家政府的政策充分清楚的向人民說清楚所以你們自己說不清楚 非得要請媒體來幫你們說清楚我們是請媒體轉述政府政策的說明自己一定要說清楚好 我要再講就是說其實呢 這個國際"},{"start":24961.881,"end":24964.322,"text":"國際非政府組織吳國介記者組織發佈了2024年的新聞自由指數報告顯示﹖台灣的新聞自由度是有進步﹖從35名進步到27名﹖可是報告當中也指出﹖"},{"start":24984.138,"end":24985.759,"text":"請問院長您知道為什麼我們的民眾不相信媒體"},{"start":25012.47,"end":25029.306,"text":"委員應該跟我們一起面對假訊息之何來我們受到的假訊息的攻擊從何而來最多我們應該找到那個源頭如果委員能夠跟我們一起的話就會知道問題之所在我要告訴你我確實是找到了這個假新聞傳播的源頭"},{"start":25030.347,"end":25047.263,"text":"我必須告訴您以我自己是傳媒專業我也教這個相關傳播法律我發現這些假訊息的來源還有民眾為什麼不相信媒體最大的原因就是因為臺灣的政媒不分媒體政治化的情形非常嚴重尤其是民進黨政府這8年來"},{"start":25049.665,"end":25065.852,"text":"政府收買媒體大量的以發包業務宣傳廣告標案形式與新聞媒體進行錢權交易的問題非常嚴重媒體他為了取得政府的標案他不敢監督政府反而是討好政府"},{"start":25066.652,"end":25087.685,"text":"為政府擦脂抹粉去掩護他們的錯誤政策和弊案幫助執政者去醜化他的政敵媒體不僅做不到平衡報導而且還散播不實的訊息這就是政媒共生媒體高度政治化的情形所造成的民眾之所以不信賴"},{"start":25089.486,"end":25112.751,"text":"媒體最重要的原因那我也認為政府應該要負最大的責任我們來看看民進黨政府的這些這8年來到底這個業務宣傳廣告費用是給了哪些媒體那麼我們也自己做了一些調查研究也發現這8年來拿到媒體拿到政府標案最多的媒體就是民視三立"},{"start":25114.042,"end":25132.313,"text":"民視得標28億三立是37億那相較於民進黨政府最討厭的中天呢這個簡直是天黨之別這相差大概六七倍之多所以在蔡政府八年執政底下其實這個宣傳費用宣傳標案集中在特定媒體"},{"start":25133.822,"end":25148.91,"text":"的這個身上這已經是一個不爭的事實同時呢也被媒體觀察基金會所認證我們看一下媒體觀察基金會他在2023年所公布的衛星新聞頻道承接政府標案觀測報告當中"},{"start":25150.111,"end":25150.831,"text":"民進黨政府養媒體最好的證據"},{"start":25173.976,"end":25190.655,"text":"委員的分析邏輯跟指責完全不是正確的資訊我之後會把我的相關資料再提供給院長您參考我們想有關於媒體宣傳經費集中在特定廠商的部分我們預算中心也做了"},{"start":25191.836,"end":25200.405,"text":"委員應該清楚 有一些假訊息的來源也是在特定的單位沒有特定的單位在製造假訊息"},{"start":25205.287,"end":25230.757,"text":"我要講的就是說如果說民進黨政府花這麼多的錢去做政策廣告做業務宣傳如果宣傳效果不錯那你就算了就情有可原可是我們來看看你們做的這些宣傳的執行成效就會發現其實效果真的很差首先想請問一下防務部部長"},{"start":25232.005,"end":25234.329,"text":"請問這個院長您知道有一款遊戲叫做臨時任務嗎不知道"},{"start":25241.866,"end":25260.311,"text":"法務部長您知道嗎 有一款遊戲叫做線上遊戲叫做臨時任務那我告訴你 這款臨時任務的線上遊戲是你法務部調查局112年度所做的 當時是在LINE上面推出這樣子的一個遊戲 這個是屬於一個推理遊戲"},{"start":25263.192,"end":25287.415,"text":"雖然說看起來宣傳經費花的不多42萬但是我也必須講說只能按讚對這個遊戲按讚的次數只有25個讚坦白說我今天歐委員我大概過去我沒有當委員之前我有時候貼的一個什麼照片或是人家貼文可能都不只25個讚你們花了那麼多的時間金錢然後去委託做這樣子這款遊戲"},{"start":25288.596,"end":25305.038,"text":"之前只有25個讚我都不知道連部長您自己過去都沒有聽聞過這個臨時任務線上遊戲這在各個地檢署還有調查局他們都有去推廣這款遊戲所以由此可見宣傳效果有多差那我們再舉個司法院的案例"},{"start":25306.019,"end":25331.159,"text":"那麼我在研究司法院的媒體調查我在研究司法院的媒體宣傳業務的標案的時候呢又發現有一家業者叫非株影業公司他在110到113年每一年他都取得數項的標案他的總金額也是高達差不多3600多萬那這家公司他做的影片這個有放在YT上面"},{"start":25332.267,"end":25335.268,"text":"說實在話這樣的宣傳效益請問院長跟部長你們能接受嗎好謝謝委員關於這種表達的方式以及他的這個內容跟他的"},{"start":25362.353,"end":25362.674,"text":"這就是我在講的"},{"start":25380.031,"end":25400.716,"text":"本席基本上也支持政府機關的業務是可以做適當的、必要的、合理的宣傳但是你錢要花在刀口上而且要有宣傳效果而不是花大錢去做了一些沒有意義而且又浪費錢沒有宣傳成效的這樣的一個業務宣導這是沒有意義的所以本席非常希望"},{"start":25402.116,"end":25424.046,"text":"而且在這邊也要求就行政院是不是可以在兩個月之內就可以提出有關於這個機關的業務宣導標案的發包執行原則總是要把一些這個執行原則要定出來嘛如果他成效不彰了然後其他年度還繼續給這樣的公司去得標去承辦這基本上是不合理的"},{"start":25424.466,"end":25438.747,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們必須強力檢討同學我要說一下最近外交部做了一支雙十國慶的影片頗獲好評我們希望這個標準這個標準可以成為各位所長去學習模仿的一個成功的典範"},{"start":25439.707,"end":25466.463,"text":"如果是這樣的情況的話那當然本席是贊同的那另外我本席也要提醒我有看到很多的機關他們在編列媒體業務宣傳的經費都是為了要聘小編幫忙維運臉書我都不懂得這是在臉書貼文按讚回覆留言這不是各個機關都有新聞處公關室就可以做了為什麼還要再去委託給其他的外包公司去做這樣子的社群平台"},{"start":25467.504,"end":25484.962,"text":"委員這沒有道理現在因為進入到社群媒體時代所以這些社群平台他理論上他就是一個政府的資訊公開平台的延伸這是自己機關內部人力就可以做的事情真的不要去浪費人民大稅錢又再去委外去委員"},{"start":25485.714,"end":25511.034,"text":"委外有可能是要增加這個專業的表達另外就是公務人員在上班時間做這個事情難免會遭受到一些批評是啦卓院長您去看看您行政院的臉書有多少人次瀏覽啦有看多少按讚啦坦白說可能比您自己個人的臉書的粉絲專頁都還要少請委員都看一看行政院的臉書那接下來呢我要講的就是"},{"start":25513.035,"end":25534.781,"text":"除了看到媒體宣傳預算基費之外我還觀察到了NCC的預算其實這些年大家都很關心NCC的預算編列的狀況特別是有關於訴訟費用的部分本期有看到在今年你們提出來的114年的NCC的訴訟費用裡面這次又編了801萬"},{"start":25540.097,"end":25557.208,"text":"從2011年、2012年、2013年 其實每年的訴訟費用都相當的高相對於同樣是獨立機關的公平會所編列的訴訟費不好意思 我認為翁博中沒有資格列席這次的會議"},{"start":25560.66,"end":25576.941,"text":"我要講的就是說相對於同樣是獨立機關的公平會你看看人家編列的預算費用每年的訴訟費用大概就是70幾萬那NCC的訴訟費用是公平會的8到10倍這樣合理嗎"},{"start":25579.131,"end":25591.676,"text":"這樣合理嗎我必須說真的是非常的誇張不用說明了我覺得事實就已經證明了一切對不對同樣的都是公平會獨立機關人家的訴訟費用編列可能這個預估業者會打官司的費用支出可能只有70幾萬那為什麼NCC他所做的處分會有這麼多的業者不服為什麼要"},{"start":25608.963,"end":25632.495,"text":"提告要提起行政訴訟去提告NCC委員你這NCC是有經驗的你也知道NCC的業務非常的複雜在我們當院NCC委員的時候沒有這麼高的訴訟費用我們不需要NCC不需要去支付這麼多的訴訟費用去委託律師然後幫NCC去做辯護"},{"start":25634.882,"end":25663.882,"text":"呃我想院長應該知道所謂的民不與官鬥這句話坦白說臺灣的業者大部分都不會願意跟機關起衝突去提告可是為什麼廣電媒體業者會這麼積極的會這麼熱衷於提起行政訴訟我自己的個人觀察第一個就是NCC所做的這些行政處分的確業者感到不服氣裡面可能有很多這個明顯重大的違法的這個疑慮所以呢他想要不服他提起訴訟"},{"start":25664.922,"end":25683.639,"text":"第2個情況呢﹖就是﹖他的勝訴率很高﹖反正我提告了勝訴之後﹖我的罰金也不用交﹖因為行政法院會把NCC的懲罰處分去撤回﹖去撤銷﹖所以事實證明﹖NCC在過去的表現﹖也是它的敗訴率很低﹖"},{"start":25688.292,"end":25703.108,"text":"他的敗訴率還蠻高的有超過一半所以在這樣的一個情況之下當然就是有很多的行政訴訟業者會提告我還觀察到另外一個有趣的現象"},{"start":25704.554,"end":25722.202,"text":"NCC在114年所編列的罰款收入是1120萬但是它的訴訟費用就是800多萬也就是說它的財閥收入的七成都去支付這個訴訟費用坦白說這也真的是很不合理很不合理"},{"start":25723.25,"end":25739.071,"text":"我這邊我真的認為說NCC你如果說對於自己的處分這麼有信心的話不用去請律師自己內部就法務處這裡裡面的人去為NCC的處分做答辯就好了真的不要浪費人民的納稅錢去做那些"},{"start":25741.474,"end":25742.415,"text":"快速的審查"},{"start":25757.808,"end":25757.828,"text":"競選審查"},{"start":25777.739,"end":25798.88,"text":"報告委員我都用一次讓機關正常運作如果沒有多一位委員我們無法運作那麼我現在要講的就是說有關於這個大法官死刑大法官做出死刑有條件核限的這個議題那麼這次大法官做出這個裁判其實也引起"},{"start":25799.841,"end":25823.903,"text":"而社會的不滿雖然說大法官沒有宣告死刑是違憲的但是他設下了很多的條件重重的關卡門檻所以實質上已經也達成了這個實質廢死的目的那麼大法官立下這些條件其實不僅在社會上在法學界裡面其實都引起很多的討論那麼我想請問院長您是否認同大法官所說的"},{"start":25824.343,"end":25824.843,"text":"您認同這樣的看法嗎?"},{"start":25836.778,"end":25858.992,"text":"我也注意到一開始他講這個是有條件的合憲他設定了一些條件那這些條件我們可以在用未來修法的過程當中讓它符合但是我不覺得這樣就把它等同於是實質的廢死我們還是有執行死刑在社會上經過剛剛委員說那個條件之後是有其必要跟空間的時候還是要執行的"},{"start":25859.585,"end":25869.401,"text":"好我想請問這個院長您知不知道這一次大法官做出死刑有條件的合憲判決有幾位大法官是贊成這項判決的"},{"start":25871.761,"end":25893.866,"text":"我知道有幾位是有不同的意見我告訴您這次的這個憲法法院的裁判大概我看起來就是有七位大法官是完全贊同這次的釋憲理由死刑有條件的核憲五位大法官分別提出了不同意見有一位大法官是完全的反對就是支持要廢死的那這樣的比數代表什麼意義"},{"start":25895.714,"end":25915.952,"text":"就是在討論的過程一定相當的意見分歧而且各有意見沒錯 院長您的觀察是對的就代表這份判決其實內容有高度的爭議所以呢不是裡面的內容是大部分有蠻多的大法官是反對的像這樣的憲法判決坦白說真的很難服眾"},{"start":25916.753,"end":25923.157,"text":"現在在研修已經有修正一些的就是依據那個憲判例子就那個監獄刑刑法及那個刑法的這部分我們做一個研修"},{"start":25939.566,"end":25940.527,"text":"對不起 委員的意思是"},{"start":25964.226,"end":25989.598,"text":"就是我們立法院通過了一個與大法官異見不盡相同的法律你們會依照新法你們會適用新法嗎大法官的幾個條件都明列在解釋文裡面那至於說我們如果達到這些條件當然可以做一些在修法上的討論但終究我們還是要在這個社會共同標準底下不過"},{"start":25991.178,"end":26011.329,"text":"這麼說來好了立法院我們擁有立法權我必須要講守護憲法維持合憲秩序不是只是大法官的責任我們立法者也有相同的責任我們必須要在符合憲法意旨憲政秩序和國情文化以及要考量到實務的問題去進行一個合理的修法"},{"start":26011.969,"end":26036.194,"text":"所以特別是現在這次的大法官的裁判其實未來會對於基層的司法人員會造成更沉重的更多的工作量所以我們一定會要綜合評估各方面的狀況去進行修法那麼我必須要強調的是大法官的解釋未必能夠完全拘束立法院"},{"start":26036.954,"end":26061.308,"text":"更何況是這個憲法裁判有明顯高度的爭議恐怕未來也會影響司法事務的運作所以我們在這裡我作為一個立法委員我會很負責的我一定也會更切實際和尊重民意去進行相關的修法那我也希望我們修出來的法行政機關必須要依法行政"},{"start":26062.528,"end":26084.98,"text":"接下來我還要順著這個議題就是因為我們剛剛已經講了大法官過去這些年來做的憲法判決常常也會增加小法官的工作量的問題所以在很多法官論壇裡面常常就有司法人員看到司法人員抱怨就大法官大筆一揮就累死基層小法官跟檢察官"},{"start":26085.64,"end":26112.567,"text":"那我想司法人力過勞的問題確實是很嚴重光是這半年來其實已經發生了陸陸續續有好多件不是檢察官啦法官啦或是警察的過勞而不幸生病或死亡的新聞請問這個院長跟部長你們有提了什麼樣的改建措施嗎跟委員報告我們本部都非常注意所屬的員工尤其是檢察官書記官檢視官等等的這些的"},{"start":26113.803,"end":26118.325,"text":"部長,我也看了你們的預算書,司法院的預算書,法務部的預算書我現在看不出來你們有編列任何的預算是想要去改善"},{"start":26138.643,"end":26139.184,"text":"司法人力過勞問題"},{"start":26156.495,"end":26156.836,"text":"加班費的預算﹖"},{"start":26177.312,"end":26198.285,"text":"﹚"},{"start":26198.905,"end":26224.371,"text":"應次去生出相關的加班經費所以這個部分的話我希望這個防務部和行政院院長你們未來都要檢討去通盤看一下大家編列加班費的狀況跟委員補充謝謝委員注意到加班費的一個問題那另外事實上我們希望能夠擴充的一些的人力比如說我們檢察官過來問題我們先有檢察官助理現在不要再講人力的部分我還要講就是你檢查事務官的"},{"start":26225.111,"end":26242.688,"text":"明明就還有缺額而且你檢查事務官外調到別的機關的這個情況很嚴重這個我是來不及講了我現在要講的就是說你加班費的問題是你們必須要解決的另外我要再提醒的就是我們現行的加班費的時薪計算方式是明顯有問題的"},{"start":26244.149,"end":26259.581,"text":"已經是他的計算方式我不知道是多久以來都沒有改變竟然是用我們的月薪除以240個小時然後算出那個時薪我們明明現在就是週休二日為什麼不是用8小時然後一個禮拜上5天班然後乘以這個4個禮拜"},{"start":26261.923,"end":26288.823,"text":"應該要除以160的這樣才合理這基本上要把大家的加班費的時薪要提升而不是說是還是用多少年以前的這種計算方式這是很不合理的我不認為說要提高加班時數因為這個會上我們司法人力更加的過勞但是提高加班費的時薪是有必要的我希望院長您應該同意我的看法吧提高加班費的時薪"},{"start":26289.977,"end":26292.918,"text":"謝謝翁小林委員的質詢 也謝謝卓院長備詢接下來我們請登記第28位林月琴委員質詢"},{"start":26338.001,"end":26343.485,"text":"主席有請我們的院長和衛福部部長麻煩再請左院長備詢請衛福部評委員好"},{"start":26353.871,"end":26377.734,"text":"院長好從院長的上週的施政報告當中可以看到有非常多的兒少的相關政策顯示中央對兒少的重視那兒少議題一直也是我關心的所以今天有想跟院長討論兩個議題一個是兒少領域工作人員的薪資跟兒少的網路安全那院長首先想問您支持同工同酬嗎"},{"start":26379.553,"end":26402.922,"text":"同工同酬當然是一個最基本的條件我想也是因為我相信同工要同酬事實上是普世價值也是勞動部近這幾年來去推動的職場文化但在我過去工作的領域裡邊的兒少領域那卻有很顯著的落差那他們的薪水很多時候是來自我們的政府部門的發放那像"},{"start":26404.682,"end":26416.762,"text":"社工跟我們的訪視輔導員所執行的工作內容幾乎是一樣的可是看起來他們心知所得事實上有非常大的一個差距從這表格當中可以看到"},{"start":26417.483,"end":26441.666,"text":"一百零二年雖然兩個都一樣都是三萬三可是社工是使領三萬三那訪視輔導人員呢他是含雇主的勞健保跟六趴的勞退使領事實上是兩萬八那好不容易訪視人員到了在一百零七年改制的時候領到三萬三的時候社工已經調整到三萬四那到一百一十三年"},{"start":26442.327,"end":26468.838,"text":"已經進入到三萬四的時候社工已經調到三萬七千七百六十五元了那房市輔導員的專業背景有社工系跟幼保系那很多時候這是在現場是我的學生那過去我在民間一直在爭取所以不知道因為在這裡我不知道可不可能就想說提出一個訴求因為他們工作一樣是辛苦房市輔導員能不能"},{"start":26471.155,"end":26497.3,"text":"他的薪酬可以調整到跟社工夥伴是一樣的 院長再請部長回答 但是訪視﹚輔導員目前是不是已經在3萬7甚至到4萬2出頭的這個範圍當中跟社工訪視員的起薪是相符的目前事實上是他們拿到的3萬4報告委員 那個"},{"start":26500.213,"end":26500.653,"text":"我相信齁過去在蔡"},{"start":26529.939,"end":26540.133,"text":"蔡英文總統任內到賴總統我相信都會非常照顧基層當然我們還是期待能夠調整到一致不會有很多差異"},{"start":26542.073,"end":26563.609,"text":"是的因為有這樣的差異所以我們行政院也支持我們在部裡面針對我們的一個督導跟訪視員從113年10月1號起來提高他的薪資在督導方面我們提高到4.1萬元至4.6萬元原來大概原來是3.8萬元至4.3萬元"},{"start":26569.312,"end":26590.085,"text":"那以社工的督導起薪4萬4千多是差異不大那在仿事輔導員方面我們提高到3.7萬元至4.2萬元原來是3.4萬至3.9萬所以這個以社工的仿事員3萬7、8這樣的是非常相近"},{"start":26590.869,"end":26592.07,"text":"年齡當然是一直往下降"},{"start":26617.16,"end":26639.989,"text":"時間如果在家裡家長沒有特別的關注的時候或者連在學校有自由的時間時間也一直在拉長這對他的身心健康都不是好事情對所以從IWIN的數據當中我們可以看到小朋友他第一次接觸網路事實上5到10歲大概是幼稚園階段就開始了那平均一天大概8點3小時"},{"start":26646.234,"end":26658.687,"text":"馬路有交通部交通局學校有教育部跟教育局可是網路世界看起來像是烏托邦"},{"start":26659.087,"end":26659.127,"text":"網路成癮"},{"start":26685.657,"end":26702.31,"text":"這個會造成他不僅是跟外界人跟人之間的疏離自己的身心包括眼睛視力影響很大另外很可怕的是網路的霸凌在罪他的心理造成可能是很長時間無法磨滅的至於其他的那些更不"},{"start":26702.95,"end":26703.71,"text":"是違法的行為﹖"},{"start":26725.339,"end":26736.768,"text":"的確就會是跟自殺風險有高度的相關我非常認同 院長一上來的時候8月份就實施了心理健康免費心理諮詢擴大到45歲這個事實上是現在"},{"start":26740.251,"end":26767.92,"text":"外界評價最高所以這次你在施政報告裡邊也說要把它提到56億我非常的贊成可是在網路安全當中我們除了後端的輔導以外可能要找到前端的原因所以接下來我們就來看這三個跟自殺比較高度相關的傷害首先在網路沉迷沉隱這邊可以看到在沉迷12歲以下已經事實上是7%"},{"start":26769.011,"end":26769.952,"text":"請教一步說明一下謝謝委員關心網路成癮"},{"start":26790.899,"end":26818.858,"text":"要求各地方政府在學校的輔導工作把網路成癮跟這個網路霸凌的相關的這些不當的一個行為當作我們這個幸福學生輔導的一個主要的一個工作的一個對部長因為我們現在看到像衛福部他是用WHO的標準那將網路成癮視為一種精神疾病然後心理輔導那教育部的確也是用分級輔導方式處理不過"},{"start":26819.719,"end":26833.413,"text":"要問的是好像網路成癮成謎都是兒少的錯如果你只做後端的輔導的話難道提供成癮平台提供成癮內容平台跟業者都沒有責任嗎"},{"start":26834.718,"end":26834.778,"text":"政府部門﹚"},{"start":26857.489,"end":26883.541,"text":"提供平台的業者今天出現惡意的言論跟網路霸凌的話他們自己是否可以置身事外反而相較於在於最後跟自殺風險最高度相關的就是性相關的訊息外傳那從數據顯示一樣是逐年升高不過看到一線曙光就是我們去年性剝削法修法之後"},{"start":26884.201,"end":26902.18,"text":"的確我們設立了專責單位也加速了下架流程也請警政署成立資料庫未來進行主動比對找出潛在的受害者所以整體來看的話我們大概先有三個樣態第一個就是我們看起來只處罰所謂的行為人"},{"start":26904.727,"end":26929.922,"text":"目前我們的做法都是處理行為人或是輔導受害者那為什麼平台可以賺取大量的商業利益的時候卻不需要負擔市警預防的責任第二個目前在沒有專法的管理下發生各種狀況都是回到個別的法律處理這個緩不及急那第三我們的兒少網路問題今天不是第一天發生"},{"start":26931.445,"end":26959.475,"text":"可是我們很遺憾的目前臺灣有速發部還有NCC也有衛福部的保護師可是一個做產業發展一個做所謂的申訴一個在做處罰各做各的沒有專責的統籌單位我覺得很可惜所以院長是不是針對這三種的網路風險跟我目前管理上的肉洞不知道你有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":26960.009,"end":26986.373,"text":"而報告委員為了防止兒少接觸這些不當的網路我們的NCC通傳會一個民間的團體有組織了一個內容防護的機構那希望能夠讓福島的網路業者自律提供防護機制但我覺得自律應該還是不夠的我們還要很多的機制加起來包括我們這些傳播的業者所以請教育部談論一下他最近跟那些傳播業者有一些進展"},{"start":26986.933,"end":27012.508,"text":"謝謝委員關心確實我們對於看到這個學生青少年兒少在這個非在學校的一個時間在私下或是在家庭的休假的時候那許多的這個社群的這些的網址確實他們會很容易收到一些相關的社群資料所以我們教育部目前正在洽細這個三大這個電信系統"},{"start":27015.77,"end":27037.207,"text":"中華電跟台灣大哥大還有演傳因為我們現在看到許多父母親他們主要是這三大消費者他們同時買了一些手機年齡往下的趨勢所有這些父前的父母親我們希望透過尋求父母親的同業跟業者"},{"start":27038.32,"end":27056.87,"text":"這一個這一個能夠洽談希望能夠包裹式的能夠禁止這些社群網站的一個在兒童青少年的一個提這個使用在網路上的這些應該把它排除也就是說因為現在三大業者裡邊基本上也有一個社群的守門員這樣一個條款"},{"start":27058.773,"end":27082.92,"text":"看起來還是針對於事實上要要求家長的這個針對管理上這三個漏洞並不是沒有解方像第一個第二個漏洞有關平台的責任有國際經驗事實上是可以參考的像美國他們已經有所在今年的7月已經通過了防止成癮性內容的剝削兒童法"},{"start":27084.837,"end":27108.463,"text":"規範了有成癮性的演算法而且避免深夜推播內容來影響睡眠甚至明定罰款那在去年呢英國也通過了所謂的網路安全法那他同時也是規範業者應該履行的職責而且要求業者對於有這樣的傷害的內容要及時刪除一樣明定罰款所以"},{"start":27109.824,"end":27128.492,"text":"第三個漏洞就是我們需要努力改善的因為網路上的兒少可能遭受到風險跟傷害要進行管理我們台灣不是獨創因為我們在2014年的時候已經是把兒權公約國內法化那所以我們有責任來履行這個義務責任"},{"start":27129.753,"end":27133.234,"text":"而專責的政府單位要跟學校跟資通訊部門合作所以也希望說院長在納管平台及時下架跟國家級的教育政策"},{"start":27156.089,"end":27184.774,"text":"我相信你應該很熟悉因為其實就是現在行政院正在做的權力執行打詐計畫所以院長你同意嗎是 所以是我們的目的世界主管機關主管的機關對於這些平台業者現在有比較新的法律工具在手所以對這些不法的網站如果經過檢舉他還不處理的話目前我們的速發部是可以請業者依照這個法規要求他限制瀏覽移除"},{"start":27185.942,"end":27202.914,"text":"事實上他的廣告部分要求他在24小時裡面下架這個我就說的自律不夠還要有比較強而有力的法律的要求所以今天最後有兩個情託就希望院長可以事實上你9月16的時候我就看見書發部公告了一打詐專法來納管平台"},{"start":27204.155,"end":27204.255,"text":"施政報告"},{"start":27225.919,"end":27250.587,"text":"因為打詐的確是我們國人很大的痛苦就是說今天詐騙事實上是國人問題所以編了這樣的經費預算就是你有要打詐的決心所以院長可不可以同意說可不可以比照打詐內容平台應該納管然後民定主管機關這是我的第一個訴求是在打詐的新法當中我們會把這些納進去因為我們對平台業者有比較強而有力的拘束力"},{"start":27251.178,"end":27276.255,"text":"所以最後就是希望臺灣是一個法治國家還是希望能夠針對於法律能夠好謝謝林月晴委員的質詢謝謝主委院長跟相關部會所長的備詢接下來報告宴會我們現在休息10分鐘休息之後我們繼續進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":27912.162,"end":27912.642,"text":"請李玉琳委員質詢請卓院長"},{"start":27941.708,"end":27966.892,"text":"李文豪想請問你一下剛剛日本的自民黨他的新總裁當選人石破茂你認識不認識我們在媒體上都看過很多次那你認識嗎近距離沒有認識那請教對台日的關係有沒有影響那你有什麼期待"},{"start":27967.984,"end":27994.354,"text":"他可能就是下屆的新首相我覺得民主夥伴國家這個民主成熟到一定程度之後對國家的國策的發展他一定有長遠的觀察跟制定那任何一個經選舉出來的國家領導人我們除了給予祝福之外我們當然希望能夠持續的深化加深台日雙方之間的關係我也認為在現在的民主夥伴國家的這種產業鏈以及共同防禦地方"},{"start":27995.094,"end":27996.095,"text":"那你是講哪一種台語廣告用的廣告詞廣告詞"},{"start":28023.217,"end":28024.558,"text":"我最熟悉的台語"},{"start":28052.138,"end":28072.939,"text":"臺灣的有很多種臺語有很多種在臺灣通行的像閩南語客家語客語還有原住民語都叫做臺語對不對都叫做國家語言是臺灣的國家語言嗎是就是臺語嗎是所以臺語包含的只要在臺灣的方言很多種都叫臺語是不是"},{"start":28074.822,"end":28100.332,"text":"臺語包括很多我們自然使用所用的語言包括原住民語包括客語包括我們的手語都是我們的國家語言國家語言在臺灣就叫臺語院長我們都是臺灣人臺灣的方言臺灣的臺語有這麼多種我們不能夠忽視其他的族群所以不能說臺語就是獨尊於閩南語這樣對其他的族群是非常不公平的"},{"start":28100.872,"end":28103.713,"text":"我還是希望說通通叫做國家語言是 我知道院長在閃躲"},{"start":28120.356,"end":28142.984,"text":"其實我剛剛一直強調我們都是臺灣人我們的先祖在臺灣幾十年的打拼耕耘才奠定下來的基礎所以每一個族群對臺灣都有貢獻都有付出我們應該要公平的對待更何況應該要海納百川這才是有公平對每一個族群的"},{"start":28143.664,"end":28169.01,"text":"所以本席今天會這樣子問就是因為現在一直在講說臺語是屬於什麼語言臺語就是臺灣通行的語就叫做臺語所以我們看到這個文化部特別有發文到各縣市去要他們去修正臺語就是閩南語閩南語就是臺語院長你支持你認同嗎"},{"start":28169.69,"end":28191.099,"text":"你的態度又是怎麼樣這種講法也是一種自然的講法啦現在所謂閩南語台語大家也是常常把它混在一起講這個也沒有對錯問題就是它習慣性的用語我就在這裡除了尊重大家對自己所有母語的保存跟使用之外這種自然的講法大家也應該比較包容啦"},{"start":28192.005,"end":28192.386,"text":"我並不覺得啊"},{"start":28208.918,"end":28222.907,"text":"因為很自然的表達任何一種語言 或者把稱呼一種語言那就是我們文化的報告包括文化部都發魂到各縣市去了因為我們很多客家的鄉親 通通群起抗議包括我們的文化部長 理部長都上來了"},{"start":28233.815,"end":28246.519,"text":"委員長你也是客家人我知道你有很多的客家的戲劇都是你編排的你也寫了很多客家的童話包括我晚上在我地方指風車"},{"start":28248.817,"end":28265.935,"text":"都要表演這個客家文化的劇本都是從你的童話故事改變過來的所以本期在這邊要強烈的要求我們應該要更正修正為臺語的閩南語臺灣的閩南語臺灣的客語臺灣的原住民"},{"start":28270.86,"end":28286.535,"text":"要海報百川啊 要有廣大的含義啊 台語的內涵裡面是廣大的這包含著客語 閩南語跟原住民語 跟手語都包括進去我們不能矮化自己啊 不能讓語言的疆域變小了"},{"start":28287.543,"end":28315.32,"text":"尤其是你如果講閩南語的話他來自哪裡他來自福建省張州泉州過來尤其是部長你的父母也是從福建的客家過來的嘛這都是可以一起的去發展我們的語言國家語言要一起公平的發展這是本席要強調的所以我請教院長部長你們可不可以做這個修正"},{"start":28316.237,"end":28316.257,"text":"臺灣台語"},{"start":28337.543,"end":28338.624,"text":"台灣的台語那就是福建的台語囉"},{"start":28354.099,"end":28358.163,"text":"我最近去日本看到他們有一本書寫臺灣華語臺灣華語什麼意思呢就是語言會透過一段歷史以後還有演變那臺灣華語就是經過歷史演變之後隔海"},{"start":28372.554,"end":28393.542,"text":"很長一段時間這個語言已經跟中國大陸的那個語言不太一樣他所寫的台灣華語其實大概就是這個意思啦所以我信的是對各個族群在台灣共進的各個族群你都要公平對待尤其台灣講的各個方言都是他的母語所以我們要給尊重要公平對待所以你應該要做個修正好不好"},{"start":28394.142,"end":28394.883,"text":"請客委會主委備詢"},{"start":28409.053,"end":28435.04,"text":"因為國家的語言阿 很多的台灣人使用的很多的方言都是我們國家語言發展法那種界定的國家語言所以都應該稱作台語啦齁所以谷主委我剛剛已經講了很多了你是客委會的主委客家的鄉親很氣憤的就是你靜悄悄的一句幫客家人說話都沒有"},{"start":28436.589,"end":28454.702,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們是尊重每個族群的自稱跟他稱你代表著客家委員會的初委我們全國客家人有五六百人將近六百萬人我們是第二大族群"},{"start":28455.52,"end":28458.001,"text":"你沒有一句話嗎我在講客家你跟我發言講客家"},{"start":28482.93,"end":28486.056,"text":"你自己不尊重自己人家怎麼會尊重你呢"},{"start":28493.8,"end":28513.941,"text":"我剛提到了客家在稱閩南的族群一般是講hollo我們尊重閩南尊重閩南的族群我們都尊重我現在是要公平對待我們對於自稱就是稱我們的語言是客語"},{"start":28514.702,"end":28518.567,"text":"主委你不要在這邊造口令了﹖對你非常的失望"},{"start":28530.38,"end":28554.956,"text":"對你非常的失望我在這邊要重申的就是說我們臺語獨尊為閩南語是做法是抹煞了所有祖先在這塊土地的努力也扼殺了臺灣客語甚至於我們的客家文化的一個發展大家 都說客家人 客家人 要認真 要大表 要堅持所以 我希望 院長 部長 主委"},{"start":28555.669,"end":28557.23,"text":"接下來我想請問的就是我們"},{"start":28582.974,"end":28597.908,"text":"農科三企業到現在還慶悄悄的尤其台灣的半導體產業在國際間都佔有這個非常舉足輕重的角色尤其是我們工研業有統計了2023年台灣半導體的產值將近有新台幣的4兆3428億元今年有可能就會達到5兆的這個大關卡"},{"start":28606.095,"end":28627.881,"text":"但是新竹科學園區為中心的桃竹苗地區就憑著成熟的半導體的產業鏈對台灣的科技成為台灣科技的廊道所以賴慶德總統特別在這個基礎上也提出了桃竹苗大矽谷這個計畫在2月22號行政院也通過了預計在這個4年會突破6兆的產值增加14萬個工作機會"},{"start":28635.023,"end":28651.77,"text":"那既然是針對這個桃竹苗這個半導體的這個整個產業的這個實力能夠更促進我們區域的這個發展那其中龍潭的龍科三期就是涵蓋在桃竹苗的大細股這計畫裡面2022年的時候這個蘇貞昌院長"},{"start":28656.172,"end":28682.937,"text":"他就宣布要啟動龍科三期當時沒有跟地主溝通這個徵收的範圍造成了很多的民怨後來呢本席跟這個客管局跟我們的桃園市政府溝通之後的話取得了共識大概要發展的面積有90公頃已經有共識了但是就缺少了兩次的這個公聽會上個會期我本席也問過我們的院長院長說大概在3月4月會舉辦這兩次的公聽會到現在"},{"start":28685.478,"end":28700.845,"text":"要10月了還沒有為什麼卡關卡關的原因在哪裡榮科山崎因為地方上對於他園區的範圍還在做一個討論那我們如何跟地方加強溝通尤其是跟那個桃竹渺大溪谷這個怎麼樣融進去"},{"start":28702.246,"end":28725.307,"text":"這個部分我想國科會是有進度的我們請國科會來做說明我們現在祖科管理局是積極在協助桃園市政府跟居民在溝通那現在桃園市政府還有一些這個細節必須要解決一個就是沒有就等兩次的公聽會就等你的公聽會全部溝通共識協調好了"},{"start":28727.107,"end":28753.707,"text":"還沒有完全解決哪個部分哪一個部分就是國小的部分國小圈國小的部分也在上個會期業長你承諾我了叫德隆國小嘛德隆國小原來你們是要屬於北圈北圈在這個永光路這邊跟一個祥安國小是重疊的校區所以我們建議不要重疊校區應該讓在地4個里的學生都可以在這邊就讀所以本席當場就建議囉"},{"start":28754.668,"end":28756.31,"text":"這部份我們科學人氣管理局沒有意見 只要市政府協調"},{"start":28778.506,"end":28791.391,"text":"市政府確定還是客管局確定當然是市政府 因為這個跟居民溝通年底以前可不可以開這兩場公聽會只要市政府同意的話我們一定協助"},{"start":28796.815,"end":28809.793,"text":"公聽會是要徵收土地我們116年就要土地的徵收跟所有工程的進度116年就要執行了你到現在還沒有公聽會耶可不可以承諾我年底前辦公聽會"},{"start":28811.141,"end":28819.024,"text":"國科會是跟桃園市政府之間的溝通還要再加強我想這個如果能夠請委員也幫忙所以我說沒有問題現在是看我們的國科會科管局年底前辦兩場"},{"start":28839.305,"end":28856.966,"text":"因為以前一一二年去年就已經辦兩場了這是沒有共識的現在有共識的辦兩場是很快的是不是辦公廳會並不難取得共識才最重要我報告已經取得共識了就是共識才等啊從三四月等到七八月也沒有"},{"start":28858.465,"end":28882.287,"text":"只有這麼難嗎還是因為逃出苗大溪谷計劃我們國發會還沒有送計劃到行政院去核准所以你們要等著這個政績歸納到大溪谷計劃嗎因為這個而延宕去等大溪谷計劃嗎如果沒有就年底辦公聽會啊我們是朝這個方向在走就是逃出苗大溪谷那就年底前公聽會來舉辦"},{"start":28884.022,"end":28907.751,"text":"主要是市政府沒問題已經有共識條件是這樣市政府沒問題我們就沒問題那就是年底辦兩場接下來我想請問的就是SRF在我們桃園市這個桃科已經有送計劃"},{"start":28909.875,"end":28910.175,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":28928.442,"end":28955.67,"text":"還是我們的環境部長還是我們的次長你們針對這件事情你們了解嗎先請教院長你知道這整個過程嗎為什麼有這個過程最新的發展是今天環境部有對於SRF的這個一些重要的要更嚴苛的標準中午開了記者會這個在市政府已經在三個月前就說要更嚴苛的標準但是先決條件"},{"start":28956.87,"end":28957.49,"text":"是不是 部長"},{"start":28972.145,"end":28999.914,"text":"報告委員現在的程序是經濟部撤銷原來市政府否決他入園的處分回到原點市政府要重新審核市政府又再度否准他進入入園沒有再度否准處分不行入園否決掉了是那麼現在他們又提起訴願那訴願會的進行是程序面的問題在實質面我們經濟部還是鼓勵廠商遵守最嚴格的標準跟桃園市政府好好討論來"},{"start":29002.415,"end":29027.349,"text":"所以 院長我要提醒跟部長員二度被桃園市政府撤銷這個處分現在要問的就是前因是因為經濟部的推薦護航開後門一定要讓這個三家廠商進來桃科那現在桃園市政府跟人民站在一起要不要犧牲了人民的健康所以二度處分撤銷了"},{"start":29029.056,"end":29047.357,"text":"本部長你要更嚴苛的標準你去更嚴苛標準這是符合標準的嚴苛是應該的但是我們並不要讓他入園啦我扑上他入園是不用到嚴苛的標準去那現在已經有這樣子了現在我看到市政府已經撤銷了那現在經濟部的態度"},{"start":29049.19,"end":29049.21,"text":"5月13號"},{"start":29064.773,"end":29084.604,"text":"美國的在台協會拜訪了前經濟部長王美花針對這件事情非常的關切本期也特別去查了一下這三家廠商當中臺灣的立方能源是美國基礎建設投資的基金是百分之百你們是不是受到美國的壓力"},{"start":29085.612,"end":29086.532,"text":"負力循環經濟﹚負力循環經濟"},{"start":29099.669,"end":29104.11,"text":"地方政府有權嗎?你尊重地方政府嗎?尊重為什麼撤銷他的儲備?哪裡不一樣?因為經濟部也撤回了他自己的推薦書啊"},{"start":29118.634,"end":29145.807,"text":"事實上他不要承擔責任啊他偷偷的他收回他的推薦書耶依照術院會的決定當時的入園標準的規定就是由地方政府來核定跟經濟部有沒有推薦期好地方政府就不要讓他入園了嘛剛剛講的啊那你要不要尊重地方地方審核過了不要啊所以院長過程我相信你前面應該都去了解了那後面的結果我也告訴你了"},{"start":29146.513,"end":29172.432,"text":"我不希望二度還有三度這個惡性循環要叫我們所有關於的鄉親用健康來付代價嗎剛剛次長講得清楚我們尊重地方政府但是民間的業者也有他提起他溯源來了所以我請教他的溯源來了你是要跟民意跟我們桃園鄉親站在一起還是跟業者站在一起你們是不是說到美國"},{"start":29173.493,"end":29173.754,"text":"在台協會的壓力"},{"start":29188.875,"end":29189.995,"text":"我強調不要二度撤回又來三度撤回請你們聽聽"},{"start":29216.667,"end":29233.926,"text":"民意聽聽我們地方鄉親的聲音不要讓我們對這個有汙染的這個發電廠要負擔著這個身體的健康好不好當初應該是為了要處理垃圾的問題想到這個方式那大家能不能接受我們現在用一種比較各位的方式"},{"start":29236.988,"end":29239.471,"text":"循環經濟循環經濟不能讓桃園一個人負擔啊不能讓桃園負擔啊 是不是桃園大部份是各式各樣的我們的整個基礎建設"},{"start":29256.584,"end":29272.49,"text":"是不是所以請你跟民意站在一起彭部長對於垃圾的處理是積極而用心的報告委員其實桃園有非常多露天裸露的垃圾山我們也積極在解決那SRF也建議大家可以經由可以看我們中午的記者會我們有把它證明"},{"start":29272.91,"end":29275.852,"text":"所以還是要人民能接受民意不要造成民怨民眾的健康是非常重要的"},{"start":29301.715,"end":29327.061,"text":"好接下來下一個問題喔院長我們一直在講電價的問題台電我們已經在增資在補償裡面已經到5000億了已經到5000億了現在我們的電價審議委員會也一定要在9月底就要來開了今天沒有開禮拜一也要開了那我特別去了解這個"},{"start":29330.943,"end":29355.585,"text":"電價審議委員會有17位委員那代表我們政府的有8席那代表工商跟消費者的有3席有6席是專家學者所以政府的態度就是關鍵工商界當然不願意漲價嘛所以3席當然是反對的所以政府態度是怎麼樣如果這8席跟我們工商消費者站在一起的話"},{"start":29356.619,"end":29382.165,"text":"沈殷熙對這個六席你說這審議委員會的結果會是什麼呢所以關鍵在行政院所謂院長你的指示了沒有這外部委員已經明顯超過政府內部的委員了所以應該是讓他們去討論我剛剛告訴你了啊六席專家而已啊我說外部委員已經超過"},{"start":29382.97,"end":29403.736,"text":"政府內部的委員是17席嗎 有錯嗎沒有錯啊 17席沒錯啊代表政府也是8席嘛工商跟消費者3席啊 6席是專家學者啊所以政府的態度是非常關鍵的如果政府要漲價就漲價了所以政府的態度啊你不要不承擔漲價的問題而推給電價審議委員會 甩鍋讓他們去背"},{"start":29410.046,"end":29414.372,"text":"這個制度的結果我們設立建價審議委員會就是在討論當中會議進行當中他們去討論態度那我之前在這個地方我也說過民生用電的穩定"},{"start":29427.092,"end":29454.77,"text":"關系到整個物價跟民生生活的需要我這個希望是說我們不要再增加國人民生生活的負擔我只能表達我希望這個樣子但是還是要電價審議委員會的委員當時去討論的時候我們知道台電也提出來了台電的員工真的很辛苦欸斤斤計較又風吹日曬的但是決策者在上面"},{"start":29456.136,"end":29479.527,"text":"決策扯在上面﹖你們說﹖電價要漲就漲﹖也不告訴我們原因啊﹖為什麼要漲﹖國際原物料上漲就跟著漲﹖那為什麼國際原料會上漲呢﹖因為我們火力發電占了八成﹖為基載的主要的那個﹖無極因素影響很大﹖戰爭的因素影響很大﹖所以這就是不是我們的能源政策有問題﹖能源的配比有問題﹖為什麼不去討論﹖"},{"start":29482.563,"end":29507.773,"text":"委員 剛剛我們談到 委員 我們剛剛談到科學 科學園區多少的國際大廠來台灣都是要用綠電這個是國際的趨勢 我們如果沒有權力的發展綠電 我們跟這個世界潮流是我們要不贊成發展綠電 我支持發展綠電啊 是啊 是啊所以你火力 你現在八成是用火力欸 那其中一大半是用燃氣發電"},{"start":29509.247,"end":29535.609,"text":"對阿所以我說有替代能源的配比我們要不要來開個國事論壇一下共同討論解決臺灣能源的未來是問題制裁是正事不要造成這個民怨一直都沒有討論欸我們一直喊臺電受不了了臺電也提出來了阿他不找民生長工業用電14%你支持嗎院長支持嗎"},{"start":29537.598,"end":29551.851,"text":"臺電提出來了這個就是要讓電價審議委員會去討論我們在這裡講多了所以院長你一直沒有 你都不敢承擔啊就甩鍋給那個電價審議委員會巴西是政府代表啊關鍵在這巴西啊"},{"start":29553.336,"end":29553.816,"text":"臺電也提出他的建議了"},{"start":29575.891,"end":29586.698,"text":"沈亿委員巴西代表臺電也是基於他的專業分析跟財務的分析去做了幾項的內容那這個就要交到電價沈亿委員會去討論了臺電"},{"start":29593.748,"end":29612.796,"text":"臺電到現在只是有一些分析分析了 最苦的就是臺電你能不能政策不改他只能照單全收了所以我們要幫臺電既能做電網的安全也能照顧民生也能反映成本強制電網已經談了10年我們的預算超過5000億給他不是補吹他的虧損"},{"start":29620.439,"end":29640.891,"text":"政府能做的就是把他過去負擔的政策的補助的任務移轉到目的事業集合機關 減輕他政策的負擔請你要去正視加上有承擔解決台灣的能源問題能源的未來要如何不要讓我們一代接一代就要去承擔人民受不了了"},{"start":29641.667,"end":29659.193,"text":"我們正式最大的改變就是讓他很多的政策的承擔補貼的政策回到各目的世界主管機關 減輕他的財務的壓力那希望能夠這樣 郭部長講過他希望兩年內能夠看到他往財務健全的方向走兩年內能解決嗎"},{"start":29667.612,"end":29680.743,"text":"國務部長說過他希望兩年內讓他逃向財務健全的方向前進這個不是口號 這個我們要一步一步踏實的做到我們期待 我也期待是這樣子一起努力啊所以在這邊 院長你針對現在我們的電價的問題你有沒有要對民眾說的因為民眾已經受不了了"},{"start":29688.322,"end":29694.906,"text":"我會跟民眾一起節約用電節約用電又是口號了這不是口號如果把節約用電口號的話長電費就是萬物皆漲物價高漲所有的產業鏈都漲價"},{"start":29705.453,"end":29706.474,"text":"接下來我們請登記第30號王振旭委員質詢"},{"start":29754.202,"end":29764.614,"text":"謝謝主席有請左院長另外也麻煩環境部彭部長 農業部陳部長還有衛福部邱部長環境部跟衛福部請備選王委員好 院長好 還有各位部長好"},{"start":29780.489,"end":29806.078,"text":"剛剛李議員一開始的時候就在爭執或者是在討論臺灣的語言其實大家都一樣熱愛臺灣這一塊土地我們也相信要打造健康臺灣就需要有健康的土地還有永續的環境我想這一點大家都不會否認所以首先想要跟院長分享一個紀錄片"},{"start":29807.95,"end":29831.389,"text":"也許院長有看過或者有聽過可是還沒有看過那個叫縱圖那我曾經在本月初的時候去看這個試影片非常的感動非常感謝顏南全導演他為了這一部紀錄片花了8年的時間讓我們看見臺灣國土的生命力跟哀愁"},{"start":29833.476,"end":29838.281,"text":"很多的事情我們知道會透過我們的主角包括阿仁"},{"start":29839.506,"end":29866.229,"text":"安和哥針對臺灣這塊土地有關於農業發展跟環境永續他們所做的努力那其實我們也知道這塊土地曾經因為很多廢棄物造成的這些問題包括污染本身所以針對於土地污染所會造成的這些農業的永續跟糧食安全甚至各類疾病事實都是一個很重要的問題"},{"start":29867.27,"end":29867.51,"text":"主席"},{"start":29888.158,"end":29914.701,"text":"施政報告裏面也針對於國土永續環境這些改善部分也做了非常多的說明那彭部長也針對於廢棄物的減量處理也有做了很多的琢磨那可不可以先請教或者是請環境部彭部長還有農業部部長有機會的話先做簡短的回應針對於我們的環境永續跟農地使用"},{"start":29915.322,"end":29915.342,"text":"請農業部備詢"},{"start":29919.585,"end":29946.619,"text":"好謝謝委員謝謝委員的邀請我們會去參加那我環境部也承諾我們會帶頭來包場來響應支持這個國片那喚醒由我們來帶起喚醒國人對於這個土地的重視那對於這個永續喔其實我們要從現在我們現在最迫切的就是淨林碳排因為呢上游的這個氣候變遷如果淨林我們沒有解決的話遭遇到的這個問題會更多那目前呢我們現在的確是在對於調試的這個氣候變遷調試"},{"start":29949.48,"end":29949.64,"text":"主席"},{"start":29969.482,"end":29989.776,"text":"我跟委員說明一下就是其實在紀錄片裡面他所闡述的一個非常重要就是說用他的有機有膳的這種栽培的方式來去維護我們這個地利那因為過去我想我們用了很多傳統的化學肥料、化學農藥的部分讓我們的地利越來越不好"},{"start":29990.316,"end":29990.596,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":30011.92,"end":30011.96,"text":"主席"},{"start":30028.049,"end":30051.956,"text":"好謝謝兩位部長的說明那兩位部長先請回謝謝那很期待晚上我們要去看這部電影也謝謝委員用醫師的本色關懷人的健康關懷土地的富裕那在王委員的安排底下我們剛剛有聽到好幾位首長好像晚上都會去看這場電影那我有榮幸因為已經很久沒有進電影院了"},{"start":30053.402,"end":30068.67,"text":"對台灣土地富裕的有意義紀錄片謝謝委員的安排應該的,也謝謝院長的賞光,謝謝部長的賞光我們也知道其實對人民的健康對疾病的維護照護事實上都非常非常的重要"},{"start":30070.837,"end":30085.571,"text":"衛福部在9月25日公告日本福島五線市的蔬菜食品規範目前都已經跟國際一致意思就是說只要在日本他們所執行的這些"},{"start":30087.073,"end":30087.353,"text":"：第11屆第2會期第2次會議"},{"start":30107.998,"end":30134.111,"text":"到底日本人民本身對於這個福島五線式的這些食品有沒有哪一些的疑慮或者是擔心那我所看到基本上日本的這些國民們對於這個福島五線式的食品基本上都是非常的接納而且不會有特別的排斥那我相信國人對於這個福島五線式的食品如果進到台灣能夠很"},{"start":30136.472,"end":30159.905,"text":"開放的去接納他真的是不需要過度的戰憂不過這方面其實也告訴我們說在跟這個國際各國標準的同時我們如何能夠強化跟日本的合作有沒有一個好的方式可以來掌握相關的食安或者是像小林藥廠所導致的一些健康食品對國民健康帶來的衝擊就會想到就是"},{"start":30160.845,"end":30161.406,"text":"衛生福利部﹚"},{"start":30181.255,"end":30208.305,"text":"在跟台灣有很密切的來往以外﹐很多很多的食品安全的問題﹐高齡長照的問題﹐兒童醫療問題﹐事實上他們都有很豐富的經驗﹐所以未來有沒有機會﹐或者是部長或院長認為這個需求性﹐跟必要性如何﹐能不能夠透過衛福部﹐來安排這樣的人力在日本﹐能夠同步的去提高台灣跟日本之間的交流﹐"},{"start":30208.985,"end":30238.265,"text":"不知道部長跟院長的意見有沒有這方面的規劃或是打算報告委員感謝委員關心我們那個人民食品的一個健康我想我們衛福部所有的單位配合行政團隊一定是堅守人民的食品安全跟健康在這樣的沿著日下我們當然就是要做一個適當的一個國際間的一個交流的處理"},{"start":30239.434,"end":30265.192,"text":"那至於說我們衛生人員派製國家的一個責定其實是配合只要是衛福部這邊只要是配合國家的政策像我們在過去日內瓦因為WHO的重鎮那美國也是有密切的在推展那斯瓦帝尼是我們很重要在輝州的一個國家邦交嘛 歐盟還有馬來西亞那"},{"start":30267.778,"end":30290.121,"text":"剛剛委員所提的我們跟日本的關係非常的密切未來如果我們會再跟相關的像外交部或相關的單位來請示我們行政院這一邊大家一起來討論如果有必要我們也可以來做滾動式的調整"},{"start":30291.949,"end":30305.256,"text":"所以院長也會同意如果將來有機會演繹好的話我們就可以有這個機會讓這一位代表可以更能夠提高台灣跟日本之間很多的交流跟未來的互動"},{"start":30306.264,"end":30335.062,"text":"當然我們極端重視臺灣跟民主夥伴國家更尤其是我們相鄰的民主夥伴的夥伴國家能夠進一步的發展正常的交流關係所以我們在這個情況底下我們會善盡我們的責任不過任何食品進到臺灣來我們所重的還是他的食品安全我們會做好安全的把關好像今天剛剛委員所推行的這些食品的進來無論如何要讓國人在安心無虞的情況底下"},{"start":30335.842,"end":30363.184,"text":"去得到資訊知道他所接受的食品是可控的好 謝謝希望未來有機會能夠研議得到一個結果下一個問題就是要麻煩這個海委會的管主委一起來說明一下有關於這個目前我們知道台灣是一個海洋國家麻煩請管主委"},{"start":30368.558,"end":30378.572,"text":"請問一下衛福部就那就謝謝邱部長應該還有不然的話部長就先留步先留步"},{"start":30380.496,"end":30401.43,"text":"因為這個牽扯到就是海巡艦還有會事實上非常用心而且管主委非常用心的去帶我們所有的海巡艦能夠守護臺灣整個海域的安全不管是在打擊走勢﹖或者是有關於緊急醫療需求部分都付給海巡艦有非常大的任務"},{"start":30402.61,"end":30411.916,"text":"這部分我們很樂意的去把這個海巡艦各方面的功能機能可以繼續的加強目前我們也知道在113年這個海巡組的"},{"start":30415.16,"end":30437.331,"text":"施政目標跟重點裡面有討論到如何能夠讓整個海巡緊急醫療的需求可以照顧到當這個事件突然發生的時候如何去協助到這些醫療需求的過程包括傷患的運送周邊海域緊急救護等等那也知道說目前也建置了海上"},{"start":30438.151,"end":30438.531,"text":"委員長施政報告委員長施政報告"},{"start":30466.414,"end":30466.534,"text":"主席"},{"start":30481.892,"end":30482.672,"text":"行政院院長施政報告"},{"start":30497.778,"end":30521.517,"text":"相較於目前國軍最大的磐石艦新竹艦是4000噸的規模它真的可以執行很多很多的手術、診療等等的其中未來如果需要在執行擴大醫療需求的過程裡面我看到的部分就是可能的話我們相較於磐石艦"},{"start":30524.02,"end":30536.418,"text":"關於移動式的這些設備方面可能是兩個之間唯一的差別這部分不知道未來管主委會有沒有相關的計畫或者是討論或者是內容還要再加強的部分"},{"start":30537.14,"end":30564.921,"text":"非常謝謝王委員我們王委員在參觀我們的新竹建的時候做了非常非常多的專業的指導那尤其是對於新竹建未來是不是能夠在X光機的這個部分能夠有更多能夠來增加的這一點我們也都知道王委員的關心那跟王委員報告就是說目前這個醫療船上面我們最優先處理的部分"},{"start":30565.621,"end":30566.242,"text":"施政報告"},{"start":30580.559,"end":30582.04,"text":"在船上是可以動手術的﹚"},{"start":30597.944,"end":30598.084,"text":"：第11屆第2會議"},{"start":30628.639,"end":30652.721,"text":"那我下一個部分就是要請教在過來癌症的部分那我們也知道非常感謝肯定我們在這個癌篩的部分會有很大的擴增包括從原來的這個28億增加了40億到68億的整個癌篩可是我們比較擔心的就是"},{"start":30653.274,"end":30675.052,"text":"在這個癌篩過程裡面針對肺癌的篩檢事實上他要從原來5.5萬要擴增到50萬左右的篩檢的量能我們比較擔心的或者是希望衛福部這邊可以再加強的部分就是偏鄉如何把這個肺癌的篩檢可以做到很完整那這部分可能還要麻煩院長"},{"start":30704.795,"end":30727.953,"text":"謝謝王振旭委員的質詢：也謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請丁學忠委員質詢感謝主席請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢農業部經濟部還有教育部麻煩請農業部經濟部教育部請備詢"},{"start":30734.755,"end":30746.791,"text":"感謝院長 議員好當我們訂改我們的這個基礎的時候那時候我們剛好大大進入的下半年那時候就去講到我們這個訪台期就已經漸漸的到剛好7月剛好發生的這個開運颱風"},{"start":30752.778,"end":30761.446,"text":"我真的要感謝委員長：感謝國國會：對到災害發生療養：配合到我們地方政府：來做重建的牆制：的協助：讓我們可以快速：來配合到正常的生活當這次的天災：我們農藥部：也有把我們的五分："},{"start":30780.264,"end":30792.309,"text":"天然災害枯燥掉：有盡力緬懷刊的果分我希望說﹖未來若遇上這大型的天災﹖這可以說是﹖歷史性的天災﹖可以說是兩三年的火炊﹖這次倒下來﹖這次開明颱風的災害是這樣的﹖整個煙水、煙缸﹖海堤﹖潰堤﹖"},{"start":30808.815,"end":30808.835,"text":"委員："},{"start":30825.854,"end":30826.014,"text":"主席"},{"start":30856.454,"end":30869.481,"text":"我跟委員報告,第一點就是說,我們天然災的部分,我們農業部一日在持續精進,有辦法用比較科技的方式,用比較早講過的,那過去都是地方政府先看了以後再報來廣戶,廣戶再報來我們的農業部,那速度太慢了,所以我們這邊是"},{"start":30876.69,"end":30901.702,"text":"一群人要配合一些影像去處理所以未來我們對於天然災害的方式也會用氣象參數的方式盡量能夠用氣象參數直接去處理這樣的話也會省掉相公所的一些基層的勘察人力第二點的部分就是說農水高的部分不是剛好風災再來清那我們農水署本身普通時候有在清農水高來協助"},{"start":30903.723,"end":30903.763,"text":"主席"},{"start":30922.773,"end":30929.967,"text":"在重建工程中﹑水利主理署﹑"},{"start":30934.455,"end":30937.156,"text":"委員長施政報告委員長施政報告委員長施政報告"},{"start":30960.945,"end":30965.548,"text":"好好用嘴來作聲：那些氣宅損壞 我想在這裡向院長拜託一項因為我們發表了一項我們現在好庫內的這個地水的專案我們哪像哪像沒有這個專案校區裏面的治水專案"},{"start":30982.944,"end":30987.966,"text":"因為我們沿海地區地層比較下陷﹖那些學校都受益比較高的時代﹖都已經低落靠的路面﹖所以"},{"start":31011.733,"end":31011.753,"text":"委員："},{"start":31030.493,"end":31031.793,"text":"我了解委員的用心,苦業是個題材,我們要做"},{"start":31048.078,"end":31052.241,"text":"我們可以說學校和學校的主理工程可以結合作為學校學校的主理工程可以順利解決"},{"start":31078.238,"end":31078.718,"text":"現在再來再講就是"},{"start":31108.729,"end":31108.749,"text":"國土計畫"},{"start":31132.438,"end":31134.7,"text":"委員長施政報告委員長施政報告"},{"start":31154.991,"end":31155.691,"text":"我請農業副長"},{"start":31175.762,"end":31187.13,"text":"都在報的部分 大家有人的執法要修現在已經都送到行政院 已經去做審議了那完了以後就會送到立法院 來這邊做審查"},{"start":31189.694,"end":31217.464,"text":"已經有代替整個好了就對了對 因為 裡面 一些像森林法或者其他的法 它相對單純比較重要的是我們的農發條例因為農發條例我們過去用區域計畫法下去設計現在改成國土計畫的時候有一些農業用地的定義跟農業用地的範疇跟農業用地的使用的範圍這個會做一些適度的修正"},{"start":31218.324,"end":31232.717,"text":"讓未來因為藝豪國土計畫裡面沒有用地木所以會讓農民能夠有一個轉換的一個時間我們希望說透過這個國土紀委法這個紀委法如果執行下去可以縮短城鄉發展距離我們是希望這樣不要說一樣政府的社區 一樣政府 一樣農戶的社區我們一樣繼續農戶這樣不是我們要捱的一個精神"},{"start":31245.128,"end":31254.192,"text":"我向委員報告 委員的說法我們完全正常就是說我們看農業的發電庫內不是只看行政因為我們農業內除了行政以後我們也要用鄉村的整個發展為軸心所以我們現在農業部針對"},{"start":31265.518,"end":31284.844,"text":"未來的農業會用鄉村發展為核心的概念去發展它的多元的這些產業這些產業就能夠跟其他的周遭的都會去做有效的連結這是我們未來的規劃每個地方都有很多的規劃剛才看這個規劃代替我們地方的市長跟我們伯娘請教一下我們農一農二實際的策略是在哪裡"},{"start":31296.492,"end":31318.17,"text":"對農業適用的時候完全沒有差農醫跟農二是一樣好對農民來說但是因為農醫農二在整個的時候因為它的區域的階級有什麼有些基礎設施投入或者是說它的土地比較集中但是在整個農醫跟農二的時候只有一點外面都沒在說的就是說"},{"start":31322.368,"end":31331.32,"text":"國一 農一跟農二分心也可以根據縣市它發展的需求而去做調整不是說"},{"start":31332.526,"end":31347.13,"text":"所以在這要向我們補充請教我們婚姻館都要加起來過完7000多公頃這段時間才到中央我們希望婚姻館政府建立的這個架構我向委員報告現在館政府因為他現在公展的部分是館政府現在在舉辦舉辦的時候有一些原則在舉辦不過這裏面包括"},{"start":31361.841,"end":31362.622,"text":"我們已經說過是不利耕種區的議員是維生農醫"},{"start":31377.71,"end":31390.899,"text":"這是管政副委員：對 管政副委員 我知道你會說管政副委員：所以我們都認為 整個管政副委員 要整個下去都有一個指導原則 但是因為 地方政府在看的時候 有地方政府的考慮 跟地方政府的發展會有幾個未來3.2號會不會新增因為"},{"start":31404.838,"end":31405.138,"text":"施政委員："},{"start":31435.138,"end":31445.526,"text":"我跟委員報告這都是外靠最近一些地政室在炒作這個議題就是說因為我們農業裡面農地就是要農用所以我跟他說你如果做農用完全沒有影響不過你如果被炒作變土地開發"},{"start":31464.62,"end":31471.944,"text":"因為我們有很多﹚可以說我們婚姻館做事﹚差不多六成做事﹚四大都差不多比較老年化﹚年輕人比較少在做事﹚你說好來這塊地﹚繼續在競爭做到他們"},{"start":31483.7,"end":31483.72,"text":"委員："},{"start":31501.414,"end":31523.098,"text":"我向委員報告 繼其在農地變更內只有萬分之三所以他本身他現在的制度內他就很怕變形 他變形一定要有條件要有他的合理性 不可替代性對啊 這就是都他有去想到很多的環境你老闆可以針對鄉村的整體規劃 下去做調整我們也是知道 現在有很多政策"},{"start":31530.859,"end":31533,"text":"我跟委員報告原來的農地裡不管是農醫農學你要去農舍"},{"start":31557.216,"end":31564.187,"text":"現在就沒辦法啦不是說阿邦就沒辦法現在就沒辦法就照沒辦法的規定去處理啦"},{"start":31571.683,"end":31586.398,"text":"所以我希望說,我們把這個執法的精神,我們一定好事後,公共處理,讓所有的事端,他們了解到我們這個國土計劃法的根本的精神,是正確的。我先做一個個案,我們之前在做,"},{"start":31594.085,"end":31600.807,"text":"委員可以幫你稍作解說一下嗎我相信沈主席很多立法委員、代表民意都非常了解但是有人提出說這個國土紀委員要延長2年至4年但是事實上已經延長過了所以表示說我們可能要有很大的共識我要向委員報告說國土紀委員跟外人的區域紀委員是要改造"},{"start":31623.494,"end":31624.035,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":31646.374,"end":31649.758,"text":"所以這對年輕人來說有起因難 第二項就剛才你說的你本來是農事還是合法的 絕對就是合法你本來沒合法的要怎麼讓他合法 表示你要有白水洩溼 你不可以白費水"},{"start":31666.377,"end":31673.421,"text":"這種就表示叫做管理,不是要管責事實上我也知道,譬如說我們農業部的很多官員在我們婚姻關係跟人交通的時候有時候政府要用他的說法來講,不然要讓我們農業部的官員做更好的解釋所以我希望議員﹚不是啊,議員部長,不是我給你們解釋是怎樣,我們一個根本的執法都沒有出來,我們有一個實際的聚人"},{"start":31694.011,"end":31694.311,"text":"我們的城鄉發展區可以擴大"},{"start":31721.335,"end":31726.179,"text":"對：我們可以說 直線好像沒有情 直線這個環境以來 以來我們林教授如果很高的 如果去讓我們發展到這個三年分區 林教授越來越多 還要強調到這個見底"},{"start":31737.108,"end":31739.83,"text":"所以這是希望說我們來政國和農業部我們要積極跟政府跟他們討論這個事項"},{"start":31756.34,"end":31761.286,"text":"要讓人了解這個事項,不是說他們實際存在著,我們中央設的規定就是相信總統要維持多少公頃的農地今天去年,我們黨這個公開的政策你就有說了"},{"start":31775.822,"end":31776.103,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":31791.364,"end":31791.384,"text":"委員："},{"start":31811.107,"end":31811.127,"text":"委員："},{"start":31826.636,"end":31835.058,"text":"農業發展區農業農業到底是最後是怎麼劃的所以我們希望說 他們可以提出他的版本的時候我們可以來溝通 我估計的"},{"start":31853.642,"end":31870.756,"text":"藍島的部分,一些土地去化成國保區去,我們覺得比較沒力所以我們去協調,就把它化為農業發展區,這樣的話會比較好所以你的班分,分你的班分如果算出來以後,我們就可以對這個地方可以好好的去討論去做溝通"},{"start":31872.466,"end":31882.853,"text":"現在是拜託我們部長 您比較貴心真的我們分明是常常走進進步在發展的一個風雲當中當然 如果真的確實來發展 真正我們中央也是功夫可賀現在我們都在講 大家都共同會和對著對應發展這是我們單純說的一個理念"},{"start":31900.986,"end":31911.889,"text":"所以拜託我們院長﹚拜託我們部長﹚我們兩位部長﹚針對這個國土紀委法﹚我們可以做一個上席的一個說明﹚還是上席的一個整個療養﹚跟我們地方管政部﹚我們來做一個上席的討論﹚維修的範圍﹚維修的方式﹚還有一個原格﹚"},{"start":31923.171,"end":31923.291,"text":"主席"},{"start":31938.479,"end":31957.747,"text":"謝謝卓院長的備詢 包括院會今天下午是寶貴的一刻我們看到這個李玉玲委員質詢是充滿了客家氣氛丁薛忠委員質詢充滿了閩南語的情境這是台灣民主化非常五彩繽紛也是百花齊放非常值得珍惜的我自己個人也學習到很多"},{"start":31958.872,"end":31969.683,"text":"報告委員會本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢謝謝卓院長、政府院長以及各部會首長列席答詢10月1號星期二上午9點繼續開會進行施政報告質詢現在休息"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 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議員長好 議長辛苦了 民生問題最重要 我拿幾點來叫議員探討一下 議長 你如果聽過最近這1年多來的非常嚴重的一個問題 就是假車牌 假車牌這兩個車牌 一個真 一個假 你有沒有看得出來 沒有人看得出來 警察也看不出來 都看不出來 你就那個比較假吧"},{"start":52.318,"end":69.833,"text":"就是說第一個交通部交通部要求的提點的那幾個辨識方法你把車牌拔起來放在手上你就看不到了在這裡我們要了解為什麼車牌在最近這一段時間變得這麼嚴重這應該是我們要探討的原因以前車牌"},{"start":75.578,"end":94.764,"text":"一年都差不多幾十件啦就是說警察抓到的喔我講的是有被查獲的大概一年大概都幾十件但到今年喔已經變六百多件給十倍啦如果沒抓到的我不知道多少啦這基中喔你為什麼要用假車牌"},{"start":97.83,"end":122.608,"text":"大概有將近4成﹐38% 這競爭數的統計﹐是因為﹐他沒有撤牌﹐用吊牌﹐吊扣撤牌那為什麼會被吊扣撤牌﹐其中我發覺有一個正相關﹐我們在去年﹐我們修改道教條例﹐其中有一條很嚴重的﹐就是說嚴重超速"},{"start":123.7,"end":145.31,"text":"來我們來定義什麼叫嚴重超輸 因為我們是超過數限60公里 去年我們改做40公里你看那個嚴重超輸的案件 我們就一年都滿幾件 你要看看每一年都1萬多件 那你去年這麼一改 2023年"},{"start":148.986,"end":172.528,"text":"膨脹4倍 變6萬2千多件 1萬5變6萬2每一件都要白牽牌喔那今年咧 今年到8月 已經5萬6千多件了我大家照這個速度 今年大家有8萬件啦也就是說喔 年中超速超過40 你就白牽牌 白牽牌要靠半年啦"},{"start":174.192,"end":199.141,"text":"不是啦 就差不多中間有十萬隻車 十萬隻車牌靠在我們的手裡第一個喔 我們想要做什麼 為什麼你要改 我們修法的一個目的第一個希望能夠遏阻違法 或者改善違法的狀況你這個規定把它改掉 不但沒有啦 要越來越嚴重這其中有很多啦 可能就是誤觸規定 誤觸法律"},{"start":202.708,"end":228.64,"text":"我們交通的規範我們有三個E嘛第一個E就是education你要跟用路人走路也好 開車也好 摩托車也好 你跟他們交要求你的職業規定是什麼第二就是政府的交通工程engineering第三就是enforcement你第三才是處分啦我們現在第二天還沒做我們就直接去案發"},{"start":231.826,"end":252.751,"text":"第二項是政府要做什麼呢?我們的訴訟有合法嗎?其實如果他訴訟道路啦,我們現在改革他很好喔,他看到啦,他玩到喔,哇,他很好開的,你如果開7、8站齁,你都沒什麼感覺,結果他的訴訟你有辦法改嗎?4站,所以你很容易就誤觸法,結果我們的訴訟規定合理嗎?"},{"start":257.455,"end":286.193,"text":"快速道路你只要施工數字多少?三十那你為所在他只要十四塊錢車就行了那一把開車的人他不會覺得他開得很快你知道現在車越走越好所以他經過那個地方他擺幾個三角錐你曬過後你可能會超出四十你那個卸責你就是為嚴重超出所以調查擺得很嚴重我不知道你們大家注意到沒有"},{"start":287.366,"end":288.887,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":318.138,"end":319.339,"text":"所以假車牌很氾濫而且很容易買"},{"start":347.614,"end":373.272,"text":"現在我們要怎麼動記者牌賣賣?你沒辦法動啊這你要看部會啊因為我們現在發覺這個問題之後所以我們政府當然有要求嘛你去電商買不到了啦你知道一般的電商啦齁什麼Yahoo啦、蝦皮啦你買不到了但是啊你在一個網路平台翠啦、抖音啦、臉書啦來我看幾張印章你看一下"},{"start":374.13,"end":374.851,"text":"現在要怎麼處理?有什麼方法?"},{"start":391.254,"end":404.858,"text":"好報告委員一方面我們會增加他偽造的難度也就是我們明年開始我們的車牌會做新的版本然後把防偽的技術再更加的加強在明年度我們會來處理這是第一點那第二點針對罰則的部分"},{"start":406.699,"end":407.26,"text":"道路限速不合理"},{"start":421.781,"end":438.553,"text":"我們現在也會要求所屬的單位來全國來盤點公路的部分交通部所轄管的是公路的部分公路的部分我們會配合地方政府跟警政單位大家一起來討論這個限速的合理性的部分我相信你讓我大家一起做不是這樣但是我們也要訴考一點這問題要應對才有補充參考譬如說以僑倉來做例子一台車僑倉到底是人的不對還是車的不對"},{"start":448.055,"end":448.716,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":461.946,"end":488.257,"text":"在某一些路段不合理的限速但是大家經過那一段卻沒有辦法遵守的話我們應該從這個人性化的檢討第一個啦我憑一代人做的啦有幾條很容易觸法的道路啦以兩線道速限50假設合理啦以到阿扁變四線道速限也5站用路的人就很容易觸法嘛所以你這個規定合理嘛"},{"start":489.071,"end":503.217,"text":"我意思就是說,你應該中央跟地方政府,因為有的樹線是地方政府你領的主管局管是哪個單位就是說你應該要調整一些不合理的對你就是說,你發人還是發車?因為我說你車的車手是人不對還是車不對?那有的車輛可能是他,是這位人民他生活的必需品或是他做生意要行,或是他出來家庭用車"},{"start":519.195,"end":542.41,"text":"他要上下班啊,他要載孩子啊,要載家裡的老人啊你現在車子擺在那裡,他生活要怎麼辦?所以基本上應該是要著重在處罰人嘛你開車的人,人家的份額最大一點但我們現在有時候喔,很多的那些受理逮不下來就違規的案件啊,越來越多啊,所以你現在給人家再檢查一下"},{"start":543.12,"end":545.822,"text":"每一個法律每一個會期每一年都修改只有一個道交條例偏向駕駛人修來修去"},{"start":568.814,"end":583.08,"text":"不應該造成不必要的民怨還是說為什麼你收到法律這個法律你改這樣合理嗎你嚴強敲鎖你從六十八改到四十要怎麼改可以啊為什麼暗箱丟不下來沒有合理的地方在裡面你的事先你有條件你應該是政府改正的法律做好事你改法律你不準時我給你處分"},{"start":598.988,"end":600.549,"text":"現在因為我們每一年這個報告的數字就增加四倍五倍"},{"start":626.332,"end":627.853,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":646.684,"end":668.662,"text":"這次我們在台南本市跟我們企駁新年的賴慧媛委員我們都一直在競出競出的時候我看到自己的蔡議員委員也在競出這條就是所有的台37太保道新年要就是高鐵橋下道路各地腳踏的道路這道路 地方一直希望政府來開票"},{"start":674.207,"end":700.749,"text":"前陣子你評估都說沒有那個階段沒有那個需要其實現在地方發展已經不一樣了這五六年來已經有很大的變化了地方喔加科你也要成立啊跟他放學很久了所以你跟人科應該形成一個科技攔戴嘛這也是印度的這個未來你要做的風雲嘛那麼新年跟台北這是附近兩個最重要的這個"},{"start":703.186,"end":703.286,"text":"林俊憲議員"},{"start":728.294,"end":750.644,"text":"最快速直接就可以連結泰寶跟新營因為台南市非常長我們台南是一個長條形的它的K8尤其是大新營 其實它跟嘉義反而是一個生活圈所以你應該連結這兩個地方尤其你現在這個紅線 你看得到嗎 各地結合到哪裡新營的東北邊是新營港口"},{"start":756.448,"end":756.968,"text":"林俊憲主席"},{"start":775.117,"end":775.277,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":789.568,"end":812.744,"text":"平估不具效益或是不可行的任何的交通建設或許現在情勢改變我們會重新的來評估那麼剛剛委員所提到的這個臺37線從臺南嘉義這個路段先到科學園區的設置他應該有其新興的一些不瞞您說陳部長跟我講過這件事情剛剛他也很清楚的說他正在努力當中"},{"start":815.586,"end":844.335,"text":"那有機會啦,不然你叫他做多少,拜託他來積極另外剩下一點時間,我要先感謝卓院長明年寬烈的治水預算因為極端氣候,這個落後,尤其這套風態,我們日南部會很恐怖但是我們台灣過去的秩序,真的好了我想說,目前每年還有一條錢,就是前瞻預算治水的第5期"},{"start":845.915,"end":874.094,"text":"關於台南﹐台南的頭港﹐中軍區﹐集盟區﹐大島區﹐鹹水區﹐陸地的寮﹐陸泥盟﹐安順寮﹐新田寮﹐青寮﹐老厝﹐各個港﹐一起八中區的整體﹐這部分﹐我想議長要支持﹐但是未來有一個更重要的﹐巴掌市﹐這個政治﹐這未來進入第三期的手段﹐我現在﹐"},{"start":877.275,"end":901.274,"text":"請議長一定要把這個報文做好誰啊我們過去的地水有進步八八風災啦十幾年前的八八風災啦台南陰五萬五千公頃今年這道啦的這個風災啦凱利颱風啦比八八風災落的火更多但陰水啊存不到存不到三百五十公頃對五萬幾到三十五啦所以這個進步很大但是還是有一些"},{"start":903.118,"end":904.679,"text":"希望在野黨支持明年的預算又有很多的民生預算"},{"start":935.955,"end":936.743,"text":"謝謝林俊憲委的"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:48:26 - 12:04:02","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"154921","gazette":{"lineno":865,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（11時48分）謝謝主席。本席邀請我們行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：院長好。院長辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會！不會。"],["林委員俊憲：民生問題最重要，我拿幾點來跟院長探討一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["林委員俊憲：院長，你應該有聽過最近這一年多來非常嚴重的一個問題，就是假車牌問題，這兩個車牌，一個真一個假，你看得出來嗎？沒有人看得出來，警察也看不出來，都看不出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：上面那個比較假一點。"],["林委員俊憲：第一個，交通部要求疑點的那幾個辨識方法，你把車牌拆下來放在手上就看不到了，而且我們要了解，為什麼假車牌在最近這一年多來變得這麼嚴重？這應該是我們要探討的原因，以前假車牌一年差不多是幾十件，就是說警察抓到的、有被查獲的，一年大概都幾十件，但到今年已經變六百多件，多十倍，沒有被抓到的我不知道有多少。為什麼要用假車牌？大概有38%，也就是將近四成，這是警政署的統計，主要是因為他沒有車牌、被吊扣車牌。為什麼會被吊扣車牌？我發覺有一個正相關，去年我們有修改道交條例，其中有一條很嚴重，那就是嚴重超速，我們來定義什麼叫做嚴重超速？原本是超過速限60公里，去年我們把它改成40公里，你看嚴重超速的案件本來每一年都是一萬多件，經過去年這麼一改，2023年膨脹四倍，變成六萬兩千多件，一萬五千件變成六萬兩千件，這每一件都要拔車牌喔！今年到8月已經五萬六千多件，按照這個速度，今年大概有八萬件，也就是說你嚴重超速、超過40公里，你就要拔車牌，拔車牌要吊扣半年，常常有將近十萬個車牌扣在我們手裡。第一個，我們修法要做什麼？為什麼你要改？我們修法的目的第一個是希望能夠遏阻違法或是改善違法的狀況，但這個規定改了以後，不但沒有達成目的，反而越來越嚴重，這其中有很多狀況，可能就是誤觸規定、誤觸法律。交通部長也在這裡，我們交通的規範有三個E，第一個E就是Education，你要教用路人，不管是走路也好、開車也好或是騎摩托車也好，你要教他們、要求他們，告訴他們的責任是什麼、規定是怎麼樣。第二個是政府交通的工程（Engineering），第三個才是Enforcement。第三個才是處分，結果我們現在第二項還沒做，就直接去處罰人家。第二項是政府要做的事情，我們的速限有合法嗎？以蘇花公路為例，我們現在把它改得很好，包括寬度、彎度等等，現在好開很多，車速開到七、八十公里也沒什麼感覺，結果它的速限有改嗎？40公里，所以你很容易就誤觸法，請問我們的速限規定合理嗎？快速道路只要施工，速限多少？30公里。有些地方只設一個車道，一般開車的人根本不會覺得他開很快，而且現在的車越做越好，所以他經過那個地方，那裡只擺幾個三角錐，他開過去有可能就超過40公里，如果被拍到就是嚴重超速，所以吊扣車牌才會增加那麼多，我不知道大家有沒有注意到？","現在假車牌造成什麼問題？大家的負擔都很重，法院負擔也很重，現在一年都變成好幾百件，法院、檢察官……因為這牽涉到刑責嘛！我們來看看偽造車牌的理由，我剛才跟部長、院長分享過，最多的就是沒有車牌，吊扣的占38%，38%是因為這個原因，至於剩下的原因，車牌處於正常狀態有17%，這個就有問題了，你有車牌、你的車沒什麼問題，你為什麼要買假車牌？可能就是要犯罪，對不對？準備要做有的沒的事情嘛！所以假車牌很氾濫，而且很容易買，現在我們要怎麼阻擋假車牌買賣？你沒辦法擋啦！這個問題要跨部會處理，現在發覺這個問題之後，政府當然有要求，所以你去電商買不到了，我指的是一般的電商，包括Yahoo、蝦皮你都買不到，但是你在一些網路平臺，像是Threads、抖音、臉書，我拿幾張圖片給院長看一下，你要買的話隨便就買得到，很容易就買到啦！所以這會造成一個社會問題，我們的假車牌現在要怎麼處理？有什麼方法嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，一方面我們會增加它偽造的難度，也就是從明年開始我們的車牌會做新的版本，把防偽的技術再更加地加強，在明年度我們會來處理，這是第一點。第二點，針對罰則的部分，我們有考慮要把使用假車牌的罰則提高，一方面它有罰則提高，二方面其實它也有刑罰，這個部分可能會來加強。再來，您提到一些道路的限速是不是不合理的部分，我們現在也會要求所屬的單位全國來盤點公路的部分，交通部所轄管的是公路的部分，我們會配合地方政府及警政單位大家一起來討論限速的合理性部分……"],["林委員俊憲：我想你的方法大概就是這樣，但是我們也要思考一點，請院長及部長參考。譬如以超速為例，一台車超速到底是人的不對，還是車的不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員的想法一樣，我常常認為在某一個路口如果禁止左轉，特別有左轉車多，除了規定之外，是不是它有需要，我們應該考慮到安全的規定，要改變這個規範。剛剛你說的，在某一些路段不合理的限速，但是大家經過那一段卻沒有辦法遵守的話，我們應該從人性化做檢討。"],["林委員俊憲：第一個，比方以我們臺南為例，有好幾條很容易觸法的道路。以兩線道速限50公里來講，假設合理，到後面變成四線道，速限也是50公里，用路人就很容易觸法嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員俊憲：所以你這個規定合理嗎？我的意思是，應該中央跟地方政府……因為有的速限是地方政府在訂的，中央跟地方政府應該要……"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯，要看主管機關是哪個單位。"],["林委員俊憲：就是你們應該調整一些不合理的地方。第二，你要罰人，還是要罰車？院長，我問你，超速是人不對，還是車不對？有的車輛可能是作為人民生活的必需品，有的是做生意要用，或是家庭用車，要用於上下班、載送小孩或家裡的老人，你把他的車牌拔掉，他的生活要怎麼辦？所以根本上應該要著重在處罰人，對不對？開車的人才要負最大的責任。但是我們現在為了很多數字壓不下來，就是違規的案件越來越多，所以你們現在罰人也罰車，我覺得這個都要思考，要做一個盤點，好不好？","我在立法院交通委員會，我都一直在交通委員會，我相信我們國家沒有一個法律每一個會期、每一年都修改，只有一個例外──道交條例，有人罵了，就一下子偏向用路人，一下子又偏向駕駛人，反正修來修去，都沒有辦法有一個完整的思考，我希望新的部長來了，我們應該好好檢討這個部分。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["林委員俊憲：不應該造成不必要的民怨，或是為什麼修改法律，這個法律改成這樣合理嗎？以嚴重超速來說，你們把速限從60公里改成40公里，如果要這樣改也可以，但是為什麼相關的案件數壓不下來？不合理的地方在哪裡？你的速限有沒有調整？應該是政府先把該做的部分做好，然後再修改法律，不遵守就處分，這樣才對。還有，你們不僅罰人，也罰車，人要記點，車牌也要拔掉，但是車子又是他每天生活上一定要使用的，你逼他做什麼？所以有人就去買假車牌，要不然假車牌的案件怎麼會有這麼多件，對不對？因為我們每一年拔牌的數字現在增加4倍、5倍，造成使用假車牌遭查獲的案件增加10倍，這絕對有一定關連的正相關，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：再來，這個問題也跟交通有關係，所以請世凱部長留步。接下來我要向院長報告一件事情，我們在臺南包括本席及溪北、新營選區的賴惠員委員一直在爭取，我看到嘉義的蔡易餘委員也在爭取這一項，就是所謂的臺37太保到新營的高鐵橋下道路。關於這條道路，地方一直希望政府來開闢，以前你們評估都認為沒有那個價值、沒有那個需要，其實現在地方發展已經不一樣了，這五、六年來已經有很大的變化，第一，嘉科（嘉義科學園區）就要成立了，接下來應該跟南科形成一個科技廊帶，這也是院長未來要做的方向。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員俊憲：新營及太保是附近兩個最重要的城市，以這樣來看，如果要從太保來新營也好，或是新營去太保也好，目前只能走藍線跟深藍線，一條是高速公路，一條是縱貫路，剛好繞一大圈，只有黃線高鐵橋下道路，就是台37線，它最快速，直接就可以連結太保跟新營，因為臺南非常長，院長，臺南是長條型的，溪北地區，尤其是大新營，其實它跟嘉義反而是一個生活圈，所以應該要連結這兩個地方，尤其現在如果從這條黃線高鐵橋下道路下來，新營的東半邊是新營工業區，重車特別多，出入要去一高很不方便，它要先向西經過新營市區，才可以走縱貫路或是走高速公路，所以應該要給它另外一個選擇，而且嘉義跟臺南的地方立委，我們都覺得很需要，你們以前沒做，幾年前的估價要八十多億，現在也許要幾百億，越早做CP值越高啦！地方的發展也已經到這個時候了，我希望院長可以支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，過去評估不具效益或是不可行的任何交通建設，或許現在情勢改變了，我們會重新來評估。那麼剛剛委員所提到的台37線，臺南、嘉義這一路段，牽涉到科學園區的設置，它應該有其新興的一些……不瞞您說，陳部長跟我講過這件事情，剛剛他也很清楚地說，他正在努力當中。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝，部長正在努力當中，這樣有機會啦！部長，你把計畫做好，拜託卓院長支持。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們會積極來辦理。"],["林委員俊憲：另外，剩下一點時間，我要先感謝卓院長，明年寬列了治水預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員俊憲：因為極端氣候下雨，尤其這次颱風，我們在南部實在很恐怖，但是臺灣過去治水很有效，首先，明年還有一筆錢，就是前瞻預算治水第5期，關係到臺南的頭港、將軍溪、曾文溪、虎頭溪、鹽水溪、六塊寮、鹿耳門、安順寮、新田寮、菁寮、劉厝、龜仔港及八掌溪的整治，這部分謝謝院長的支持。但是還有一個更大、更重要的，就是八掌溪的整治，未來要進入第三期，請院長一定要把這個部分做好。過去的治水有進步，十幾年前的八八風災，臺南淹水面積5萬5,000公頃；今年，凱米颱風比八八風災下的雨更多，但是淹水地區剩下不到350公頃，面積從五萬多到三百五，所以進步很大，但是還是有一些地方，尤其在溪北的地方，以現代社會來說，只要淹水，政府都應該要解決，不過現在預算卻被在野黨擋住了、卡住了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們繼續努力。"],["林委員俊憲：這不是開玩笑！"],["卓院長榮泰：誠如委員說的，凱米颱風之後，我們在明年的治水預算加了115億，總共到551億，今年還有……"],["林委員俊憲：我希望在野黨要支持明年的預算，又有很多的民生預算、治水預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：我相信他們一定會的。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，下午2時30分繼續開會進行質詢，我們現在休息。","休息（12時4分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-09-27"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137601_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-09-27","影片長度":"00:31:55","end_time":"2024-09-27T11:48:19+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154920","委員名稱":"吳春城","duration":1915,"start_time":"2024-09-27T11:16:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":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狀態不是臨時提出來的他在民間已經倡議3年了"},{"start":552.138,"end":578.654,"text":"所以普及民間、廣獲共鳴你現在去Google大概有超過10萬筆的壯世代的文章在討論在這一期的商業週刊以壯世代做封面35頁報導那你可以看到這個在民間是如何而且他談的是企業對於企業看到的這一方面的共識也請部會能夠好好的"},{"start":579.133,"end":579.914,"text":"養養灑灑數萬字竟然沒有提到這五個字超高齡社會"},{"start":596.826,"end":609.269,"text":"我有點嚇到 你知道嗎 我說 院長我 院長你是忘了嗎 你的承諾嗎你心中沒有超高齡社會嗎但是我寧願相信 院長你最近真的是太累了"},{"start":610.077,"end":610.137,"text":"萬鈞蓄勢待發"},{"start":632.978,"end":656.016,"text":"行政院有決心嗎?大家突然有一點﹖有院長你的一言興邦﹖有時候一言悔邦這一個大家等待你這一個在這個跨部會小組在陳政委的領導下召開的三次會議主動的從6個部會擴充到13個部會"},{"start":660.289,"end":681.365,"text":"這是主動 這不是委員的要求是他們在探討過程當中會發現真的是很多部會跟高聯化都有關也提出了64項的計畫這個項目大概就看到這個盛世壯大盛世壯大讓我們 但是仔細一看以後發現"},{"start":683.991,"end":705.917,"text":"這都是匯編的現行措施現行措施沒有策略引導沒有未來性沒有前瞻性感覺就是敷衍表示另外我們也詢問了各個部會有關壯世代這13個部會有關壯世代編類預算的情況根據他們的回覆"},{"start":714.883,"end":737.142,"text":"有5個部會掛零 兩個部會是零頭勞動部沒有公務預算 另外找一些基金衛福部都是在做一些文康志工 也都是湊數性的讓我們真的是滿腔熱血 突然被潑了冷血不過剛蘇發布"},{"start":738.739,"end":766.777,"text":"有傳給我說他們其實是有編列的1.7億那只是名稱沒有用對但是這個不是一個名稱這是一個政策不是名稱掛羊頭賣狗肉那也沒有意義院長這裡喔超高齡社會再過95天8年後台灣一半人口超過50歲那我要三問院長"},{"start":767.97,"end":768.811,"text":"院長你覺得"},{"start":790.521,"end":805.911,"text":"報告委員我們國家的政策國發會長期以來都有相當整密的規劃甚至他們也定期的或是不定期的會發表很多對國家政策的過去的分析未來的預判目前這個工作也正在進行當中"},{"start":806.851,"end":811.775,"text":"各部會呈現出來的編類 像教育部 終身教育師 預算 針對60歲以上的教育預算 佔教育部的0.2%基本上各部會幾乎都是1%以下"},{"start":832.588,"end":832.808,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":848.106,"end":873.76,"text":"不過請委員能夠關心因為我們剛剛因為由您的一邊督促陳時中政委是非常快速的行動未來他會在我們社會福利推動委員會當中也會定期的將這個議題納為報告的重點那各部會也有他可以雲芝的這個預算跟費用我認為在所謂定義成眾世代的相關的過程當中政府不會去忽略了"},{"start":874.605,"end":903.081,"text":"移漏了這一塊那以後還要請委員我們繼續來督促是不是執行的能夠到位這個各部位因為主動都站出來各部位有誠意但是我們現在欠缺的是什麼跟委員報告我可以補充事實上我們今年14年教育部在這個中生學習這一塊我們事實上經會我特別因為委員關心這個壯世代我覺得那也確實在"},{"start":903.541,"end":905.302,"text":"我看好像主計處的資料這一個在我們的稅基上面壯士代的貢獻是占了55%"},{"start":933.106,"end":960.173,"text":"是支撐我們國家各位我們行政院編列中的預算55%以上是壯士代因為他有工作能力有消費力但是我們很多為他們照顧不到1%好 第二問 院長這不是老人的問題這是年輕人的問題年輕世代大家都在談扶養比這個扶養比這個工作人口當分母然後被扶養當分子那因為高齡化"},{"start":960.981,"end":961.021,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":965.721,"end":985.153,"text":"越來越小對不對目前是4比1委員吳春城我時間暫停一下好不好對不起那個備詢的部長你看問哪一位就在那邊其他的部長就請回好不好因為這樣子這個畫面等一下我要請你們出來跟我喊口號好不好請各位部長先回院長請留下來我們的大家長對不起我覺得這樣會比較好一點抱歉抱歉吳委員對不起請繼續好"},{"start":994.178,"end":1012.267,"text":"目前是4比1啦 4個扶養1個到2040年是2比1啦到2057年就1比1啦 台就分子代分母啦我要請問院長對這個會壓垮下一代的扶養品國家希望工程有解方嗎"},{"start":1013.985,"end":1014.045,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":1028.035,"end":1043.594,"text":"高齡照顧上面我們會持續推動長照3.0來增加年輕人在對高齡長輩的一個負擔那我們會做更多的家庭投資來投資給這個年輕的家庭讓他們能夠從減輕負擔開始"},{"start":1046.021,"end":1057.269,"text":"能夠比較成長自己的撫養的這個能力這個就是在過程當中這個事情沒有一個社會有辦法去照顧一半的人口都從照顧撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養�"},{"start":1074.225,"end":1091.752,"text":"這些人不是我們所想像的都是躺在那邊靠撫養的靠社會福利的他們事實上可以生產者消費者繼續成為一個社會的貢獻者現在戰後嬰兒草全部進入60歲了戰後嬰兒草有三個特質"},{"start":1093.817,"end":1104.347,"text":"高壽、高智能、高資產這些是社會上非常有用的人我們現在就把他打到社會的邊緣去了讓他任由他們臥床躺平"},{"start":1105.066,"end":1105.346,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":1132.168,"end":1132.348,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":1146.206,"end":1146.546,"text":"三問院長"},{"start":1175.799,"end":1194.566,"text":"我們現在的社福預算已經超過了8300億了現在呢 花了這些錢可以解決我們的人口國安危機嗎還是這些錢有辦法承諾 如果花了這些錢就有效 那我們當然值得花嘛有效嗎 會嗎 會解決嗎"},{"start":1196.411,"end":1215.402,"text":"委員應該清楚人口的危機不會是一年兩年就可以解決的但至少我們現在有一個方向我們如何先維持現在的出生率能夠把它維持住再想盡各種有效的途徑讓把它提高所以我們用更多的剛剛說的社會投資從0到2歲2到6歲之後的義務教育"},{"start":1220.278,"end":1240.956,"text":"國中到大學一路上0到22歲國家跟著大家一起養的這種觀念希望鼓勵大家這一個是一個全面性的問題這一個也不是靠幾個救濟性的措施能夠解決的問題既然是國安危機這麼容易解決就不叫國安危機了"},{"start":1241.917,"end":1269.946,"text":"那所以呢最終的源自於我們失衡的高齡政策我們現在只有單軌式的照顧性政策而沒有發展性政策那這個8300億也只能照顧15%就是這些已經越來越失能越來越需要照顧的但是呢任由85% 800萬的人像土石流一樣的因為隨著他們年紀越來越大未來都是高齡者一定越來越多嘛"},{"start":1270.623,"end":1270.883,"text":"雙軌並行,我們現在只有單軌"},{"start":1300.393,"end":1306.639,"text":"這兩個必須為什麼他有所不同學理不同 目標不同不能混為一談混為一談就是沒有解方嘛OK 下來這個 院長你也看到了大家"},{"start":1327.216,"end":1356.433,"text":"都起義來歸了要追隨你我們要來給全民做承諾各級的車廂都到位了論述到位 行政到位 立法到位 審計到位媒體 輿論都到位了但是我們竟然發現沒有火車頭沒有火車頭這些變成什麼展示櫥窗喔展示櫥窗 好看的做好看的這樣其實沒有在動火車頭在哪裡"},{"start":1357.999,"end":1380.23,"text":"我的頭在我的對面就是你就是你你知道你非常的重要我們現在來看日本怎麼做日本在1995年就有高齡社會對策基本法30年前欸人家30年前就有這個我們看他的第15條在內閣府要設立高齡社會對策會議"},{"start":1381.887,"end":1385.054,"text":"第16條 會議的會長有內閣總理大臣擔任 就是我們的行政院長"},{"start":1389.212,"end":1390.693,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":1415.575,"end":1440.321,"text":"不僅認同我們也是朝這個方向我們有社會福利推動委員會那也是由院長來召集的雖然不是跟日本這樣一個單一的訴求我們一定會把那個議題剛剛陳時中政委所努力過的這種過程放在裡面做一個我覺得有誠意沒有決心決心要做就要做到底其實也不用效法日本我們自己行政院就有了只是看你重不重視這個關心問題"},{"start":1443.103,"end":1462.177,"text":"我們現在行政院這個效能做得不錯是人員跟檢探辦公室已經有這個檢探辦公室可以依照中央行政組織機關基準法第28條就可以成立這些組織編制所以現在法令由派任然後要有召集人要有副院長以上的人來擔任"},{"start":1463.098,"end":1463.698,"text":"執行長：副主任：分組業務"},{"start":1486.731,"end":1501.941,"text":"這件事情﹚人口的問題涉及的13個部位都來了再看看有沒有決心而已有決心就應該要比照這樣的方式才有辦法而這個解決是未來台灣一半人口的幸福"},{"start":1502.757,"end":1528.791,"text":"跟委員報告不僅決心還要有行動在社會福利推動委員會召開的19次會議當中跟委員報告17到19次這幾次裡面都有把壯世代的議題列為一個討論那是不是我們會後可以把這個討論的重點再跟委員做詳細的說明跟報告因為我知道前面的問題啦就是真的是我也看得出院長的誠意但是我們沒有找到問題的核心"},{"start":1529.511,"end":1529.992,"text":"臺灣進入超高齡社會"},{"start":1546.721,"end":1549.242,"text":"可否承諾在行政院設立專責的壯世代政策辦公室"},{"start":1575.493,"end":1579.875,"text":"但是要比照像檢探辦公室這樣的編制按照這樣的組織法來成立你給他要馬兒跑但是不給他吃草"},{"start":1598.345,"end":1601.587,"text":"我會緊記剛剛委員所說的有想法還要有決心還要下去行動我跟你講我們的決心都是夠的行動或許剛開始我們在收集更完整的資料但最後我們就會收斂"},{"start":1621.881,"end":1649.742,"text":"提出幾個重點的計畫 院長可不可以承諾這樣子 成立這個辦公室這個問題我已經陳述 這個我看周邊這個是大數據這個的問題涉及到這麼多 如果這是一個國安問題這是一個希望工程的問題 扶養筆的問題 少子化的問題 社福要破產的問題ESG所有的這些的問題都跟這件事情有關"},{"start":1650.763,"end":1653.485,"text":"委員長你是領導我講這件事情我非常清楚了"},{"start":1674.48,"end":1674.86,"text":"我跟委員的承諾"},{"start":1693.763,"end":1695.664,"text":"社會福利委員會的思維那個就單軌你再把這個放在這個單軌底下就死路一條啦"},{"start":1716.212,"end":1744.491,"text":"保證死路一條我們已經搞太久了啦或者是我們國發會他現在已經有一個人口對策的一個相關的組織我們可以把它做內容功能的強化是不是請朱偉來說明一下我跟委員報告一下我剛剛跟陳政委有做討論我們認為整個人口的問題都必須被探討不是只有壯世代從年輕人要不要生小孩一路到老所以我們希望成立一個人口對策的辦公室"},{"start":1745.111,"end":1745.731,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":1768.186,"end":1794.925,"text":"跟委員報告日前我們討論過人口政策的時候大概都有這樣交換意見只是還沒有把它當作一個純熟對外發表的過程所以我說我還跟陳政委還有社福推動委員會跟國發會我們在做一個比較完整的規劃我覺得推出來不是一個空的架構空的組織它必須要精神內容跟計劃齊成這樣我們才能夠對後續的工作有十足的掌握"},{"start":1799.221,"end":1821.421,"text":"我跟院長報告現在在馬上進入超高齡社會了你今天在這裡不能做承諾沒有決心那全民都看到我們有動作我們有行動這是一個決心的問題我們是有絕對的承諾面對人口的問題壯士代是人口問題的一部分"},{"start":1822.618,"end":1845.701,"text":"對但是非常核心的一部分好嗎是的非常核心而且跟你講這跟高齡化跟少子化是一體制兩面掌握三分之二財富金管會是這樣子這些財富都鎖在這裡年輕人沒有未來變成食水經濟包括長壽經濟是年輕人的未來最重要的產業發展包括教育包括文化所有的層面來我們看下一頁"},{"start":1848.01,"end":1848.43,"text":"我個人也不會認為銀髮是海嘯"},{"start":1914.659,"end":1914.702,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:16:24 - 11:48:19","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"154920","gazette":{"lineno":753,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時16分）有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員春城：院長好，你辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，應該的。"],["吳委員春城：剛剛聽到你跟陳雪生委員的對話，在談馬祖的建設，我是非常感動，我覺得陳委員老當益壯，在為家鄉謀福利，所以我覺得我們應該政治放一邊，齊心愛臺灣，大家一起攜手合作，全民都在看著我們。","今天我的這個議題非常重要，因為就像上面寫的，再過95天臺灣就正式進入超高齡社會，被視為國安危機的人口問題是否有解？希望院長暫時把一切紛擾放一邊，我們能夠專注用心地，以國家利益大於政黨利益，甚至大於個人得失，因為這件事情事關到600萬的壯世代，還有年輕人的未來，所以現在有萬名的人線上在看我們這場質詢。","我用一個比有趣一點的，希望不要劍拔弩張，能夠有高度、有風度地來一場華山論劍，能夠對於我們如何邁向超高齡社會跟院長有一個很好的交流給全民交代，這樣好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。我覺得委員不用用「大論辯」，我們用大討論就可以了。"],["吳委員春城：大討論，對，OK，華山論劍嘛！華山論劍可能到最後就是齊心齊力一致對外嘛！","院長知道這是人口危機，我在這個領域也很久了，我深深地感受到，往前30年臺灣最重要的問題是民主化的問題，但是到現在還在談民主化就是笑話了。民進黨明天就是38歲了，從青少年到現在中年，還在搞同樣的問題就要再加油一點了。往後30年最重要的是什麼？是人口的問題，有高齡化跟少子少。臺灣有全世界最快的老化、最嚴重的少子化，像直接掉下懸崖一樣的人口，跟南韓並列為全世界兩個人口問題最嚴重的國家，到2057年我們會超越日本，比日本還老，這樣的人口危機，請問行政院準備好了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們日前曾經試圖討論過這個重要的問題，包括我們現在的出生率等等，其中我特別提到幾年前我手上的一個資料，說到2070年臺灣的人口可能降到1,500萬，現在我們要維持這樣的數字也必須要做更多、更多的努力，否則我們會失去……"],["吳委員春城：對、對、對，像日本甚至有日本滅絕論，希望臺灣不要哪一天要討論這個問題。所以努力就從我們現在開始，這個我們已經太長期忽略了，特別明年（2025年）是邁向超高齡社會元年，我們正式面對超高齡社會來臨的元年，希望從院長開始。因為這個問題會讓臺灣整個動能消失，再過10年，2034年臺灣有一半人口將超過50歲，一半人口！這一群人茫茫然，沒有方向感、沒有政策、沒有產業，任其這樣子倒下來，這個也成為少子化的成因，年輕人沒有未來。","這裡我還是要感謝院長，在5月31日你第一天到國會來做施政報告接受總質詢，我也第一天就質詢你，當時看到你懷抱理想、暢談國家希望工程，請問院長，你現在雄心壯志還在嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：記得當天我還謝謝委員，因為你壯世代的這種標準把我都列進去了，我都感覺到溫暖，我們當時所談的，我們會一步一步落實到現在的人口政策裡面，對於委員最關心55歲壯世代還有生產力的消費者，而且具有工作能力的這一群，如果讓他導入到社會，同時國家、社會能夠對他做更多的關懷及投資，這就是我們現在在包容成長裡面有關於社會投資相當重要的部分……"],["吳委員春城：很好！院長，你知道的，你是國家最高的行政首長，你一言興邦，你的一句話影響力有多大，所以我們不是隨便嘴巴講一講……"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是。"],["吳委員春城：就過了。你知道你當時承諾在行政院成立的跨部會小組終於也啟動了整個壯世代的計畫列車，因為我們都很當真，我們都很相信院長，所以有6位部長都啟動了。","我們來看一下，連立法院都動起來了，立法院韓院長還有出席主持，我們有63位立委加入了壯世代政策及產業發展促進會（壯促會），還有200多位的學者專家，這個也在我們群賢樓9樓創下一時的朝野共識，所以可以看到立法院動起來了。我們再看，審計部都動起來了，審計部一直對我們政府在高齡化、少子化處理的政策很不滿意、很有意見，也出了很多指導的評論分析，但是看起來大家都置之不理，審計長也認同了壯世代的理念，認為這是一個新社會的解方，邀請我去跟他們上課，做了很多的溝通，針對430位的審計人員，他最後也承諾要把這樣的政策列為年度的審計重點，希望審計部與行政院能夠大家一起同心同力。另外，我們的政務官，我也非常感謝我們陳時中政委，在院長承諾之後，他立刻接下任務，立馬行動，很快速的在兩個禮拜之內就召開了這個跨部會小組的會議，他也深入的去瞭解什麼是壯世代，跟過去的銀髮族有什麼不同，因為他當過衛福部長，他非常瞭解銀髮族，對於新的，他深表認同，也展開了一些行動目標，召開了3次會議，在8月12號我們召開了壯世代的公聽會，盛極一時，有250位的專家出席、50位的中央官員出席，我特別感謝有8位部會的次長4個小時全程參與，沒有跑掉，大家非常熱烈，而且很有共識，達成了10點共識，後來也有送到行政院給各位參考。","另外也跟院長報告，壯世代不是臨時提出來的，它在民間已經倡議三年了，所以普及民間、廣獲共鳴，你現在去google大概有超過10萬筆壯世代的文章在討論，在這一期的商業週刊以壯世代做封面，有35頁的報導，你可以看到這一個觀念在民間是如何，而且它談的是企業，對於企業在這一方面的共識，也請部會能夠好好的去看一下這一些民間的需求反映。","但是那一天院長你的施政報告整本厚厚的，我還從頭到尾檢查，洋洋灑灑數萬字，竟然沒有提到這5個字──超高齡社會，我有點嚇到你知道嗎？院長是忘了你的承諾嗎？你心中沒有超高齡社會嗎？但是我寧願相信，院長你最近真的是太累了。"],["卓院長榮泰：已經在進行中的事情，我沒有把它特別強調，這點抱歉。"],["吳委員春城：對，當然啦！這一點我基本上是體諒你的，覺得你是太累了，分心太多啦！但是這件事情還是裡面提到的，因為大家都動起來了，萬軍蓄勢待發，然後行政院有決心嗎？大家突然有一點……院長，你的一言興邦，有時候一言毀邦，大家在等待你。跨部會小組在陳政委的領導下召開了3次會議，主動的從6個部會擴充到13個部會，這是主動的，這不是委員的要求，是他們在探討過程當中會發現，真的是很多部會跟高齡化都有關，也提出了64項計畫，大概看到這些項目會認為聲勢壯大，但是仔細一看以後發現這些都是彙編的現行措施，沒有策略引導、沒有未來性、沒有前瞻性，感覺就是敷衍了事。","另外我們也詢問了這13個部會有關壯世代編列預算的情況，根據他們的回復，幾乎都零零落落，有5個部會掛零，2個部會是零頭，勞動部沒有公務預算，另外找一些基金，衛福部都是在做一些文康志工，也都是湊數性的，讓我們真的是滿腔熱血突然被潑了一盆冷水，不過剛剛數發部有傳給我說他們其實有編列了1.7億，只是名稱沒有用對，但是這個不是一個名稱，這是一個政策，不是用名稱掛羊頭賣狗肉，那也沒有意義。","院長，超高齡社會再過95天，8年後臺灣一半人口超過50歲，那我要三問院長，看到現在我們的各個縣市，有7個縣市現在已經是超高齡社會了，國家的人口政策可以沒有長期性、前瞻性的政策，只靠秘書彙編這種隨附的措施，可以解決這樣子的人口政策嗎？院長，你覺得呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，對於我們國家的政策，國發會長期以來都有相當縝密的規劃，甚至他們也會定期或是不定期的發表很多對國家政策過去的分析、未來的預判，目前這個工作也正在進行當中。"],["吳委員春城：我知道國發會很努力，但是他們提的東西你們都不看啊！各部會都不看啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：新的國發會，就還沒有完全成熟的部分，我們有討論過……"],["吳委員春城：各部會呈現出來的編列，像教育部終身教育司針對60歲以上的教育預算，占教育部的0.2%，基本上各部會幾乎都是1%以下，幾乎都是在衛福部，這個1%也都是配合衛福部的一些措施，基本上大家都認為60歲就沒用了，所以文化也不用了，教育也不用了，隨隨便便，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員能夠寬心，因為有您的督促，陳時中政委是非常快速的行動，未來他在我們社會福利推動委員會當中也會定期的將這個議題納為報告的重點，各部會也有它可以勻支的預算跟費用，我認為在所謂定義成壯世代的相關過程當中，政府不會去忽略、遺漏這一塊，以後還要請委員繼續來督促，看執行的是不是到位。"],["吳委員春城：各部會主動都站出來了，我知道各部會有誠意，但是我們現在欠缺的是什麼？是決心。"],["鄭部長英耀：有，跟委員報告，我可以補充，事實上114年教育部在終身學習這一塊的經費上，因為委員關心壯世代，那也確實在整個學習人生的一個規劃裡面，所以我特別增加了二點多億，也就是說，我們從原來的經費……"],["吳委員春城：3.4億。"],["鄭部長英耀：增加到將近5億的經費，所以這整個所占的比例，教育部的經費也有超過百分之一點多，所以不是委員講的0.2%……"],["吳委員春城：我看了好像是主計處的資料，在我們的稅基上面，壯世代的貢獻就占了55%，支撐著我們國家。各位，行政院編列這麼多預算，55%以上是壯世代……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為他有工作能力、有消費力。"],["吳委員春城：但是我們對他們的照顧卻不到1%。第二問，院長，這不是老人的問題，這是年輕人的問題，年輕世代，大家都在談撫養比，就是把工作人口當分母，被撫養者當分子，但因為高齡化，所以分子就越來越大；又因為少子化，分母就越來越小，對不對？目前是四比一……"],["主席：吳委員，我時間暫停一下好不好？對不起，備詢的部長，你看要問哪一位，就站在那邊，其他的部長就請回，好不好？因為這樣子這個畫面……"],["吳委員春城：OK，等一下我要請你們出來跟我喊口號，好不好？"],["主席：對，因為這樣子不是很好看。"],["吳委員春城：現在先請回。"],["主席：請各位部長先回，院長請留下來。"],["吳委員春城：我們的大家長。"],["主席：對不起，我覺得這樣會比較好一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝院長。"],["主席：吳委員，對不起，請繼續。"],["吳委員春城：好。目前是四比一，四個撫養一個，到2040年是二比一，到2057年就一比一，分子就大於分母了。我要請問院長，對於這個會壓垮下一代的撫養比，國家希望工程有解方嗎？我們現在承諾了，我們現在所做的事情可以解開這個撫養比，這個撫養比都是學者做的、國發會做的資料，有沒有什麼解方？"],["卓院長榮泰：從高齡的照顧上面，我們會持續推動長照3.0，來減輕年輕人在對高齡長輩的負擔；我們會做更多的家庭投資，來投資給年輕家庭，讓他們能夠從減輕負擔開始，來增加自己的撫養能力，這個都是在過程當中。"],["吳委員春城：院長，這個事情，沒有一個社會有辦法去照顧一半的人口，都從照顧……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["吳委員春城：壯世代不是一個名詞，它涉及到很多的政策，壯世代有它的解方，就是把分子壯起來，拉下來當分母，這些人不是我們所想像的都是躺在那邊要靠撫養、要靠社會福利的，他們事實上可以作為生產者、消費者，繼續成為一個社會的貢獻者。現在戰後嬰兒潮全部進入60歲了，戰後嬰兒潮有三個特質──高壽、高智能、高資產，這些是社會上非常有用的人，但我們現在就把他們打到社會的邊緣去，任由他們臥床躺平，然後面對這樣大量的老人，我們再用社福去救濟，這不是一個很愚蠢的方法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我一直有一個講法，就是讓高齡者健康多一天，會好過我們對他的照顧多一點，所以衛福部、勞動部有途徑，包括這些壯世代跟高齡者的學習、就業、投資、文化、文康、觀光等等，甚至自願服務、做志工，讓他再進到社會，這些都有途徑的。"],["吳委員春城：其實我們換個角度，從銀髮思維的角度就是照護；但是如果從壯世代的思維，你會發現這群人太有用了，是臺灣社會重要的支撐力量。我們把他拉下來，大家看到臺灣扶養者的底盤就非常壯大，而且下面就是世代和諧、世代共榮、世代共同工作，這才是一個美好的臺灣。不然一直花他們的錢、掏空臺灣，未來下一個世代支撐不住，沒有人有辦法扶養。","再來三問院長，我們現在的社福預算已經超過了8,300億，花了這些錢可以解決我們的人口國安危機嗎？還是有辦法承諾，如果花了這些錢就有效，那我們當然值得花嘛！有效嗎？會嗎？會解決嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該清楚，人口的危機不會是一年、兩年就可以解決的，但至少我們現在有一個方向，如何先維持現在的出生率，能夠把它維持住，再想盡各種有效的途徑把它提高，所以我們用更多剛剛說的社會投資，從0到2歲、2到6歲之後的義務教育，到國中、到大學，一路上0到22歲，國家跟著大家一起養的這種觀念，希望鼓勵大家。"],["吳委員春城：我知道這是一個全面性的問題，也不是靠幾個救濟性的措施就能夠解決的問題。既然是國安危機，這麼容易解決就不叫國安危機了。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["吳委員春城：所以最終源自於我們失衡的高齡政策，我們現在只有單軌式的照護性政策，而沒有發展性政策。這個8,300億也只能照顧15%已經越來越失能、越來越需要照顧的這些人，但是任由85%、800萬的人像土石流一樣，因為隨著他們年紀越來越大，未來高齡者一定越來越多，高齡者如果越來越多，有多少的錢可以用照護措施來解決這個問題？一定無解的嘛！我們要避免讓這些人像土石流一樣，因為高齡社會來臨，他們占人口的總數一定會越來越多，但是我們一定不能讓他的比例增加，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["吳委員春城：就是需要照護的比例。如何做到？當然一定要有發展性政策，雙軌並行，我們現在只有單軌。為什麼現在把壯世代依附在社會福利政策？社會福利就是一個照護性的思維跟措施，這兩個為什麼有所不同？學理不同、目標不同，不能混為一談，混為一談就沒有解方。","院長，你也看到了，大家都起義來歸了，要追隨你，我們要來給全民承諾，各節車廂都到位了，論述到位、行政到位、立法到位、審計到位、媒體輿論都到位了，但是我們竟然發現沒有火車頭！沒有火車頭，這些就變成展示櫥窗，做好看的，其實沒有在動。火車頭在哪裡？火車頭在我的對面，就是你！你知道你非常的重要嗎？我們現在來看日本怎麼做，日本在1995年就有高齡社會對策基本法，人家30年前就有這個。我們看它的第十五條，在內閣府要設立高齡社會對策會議，第十六條就是這個會議的會長由內閣總理大臣擔任，就是我們的行政院長。當然不是只有這樣擔任，不只是一個會議，底下要有幹事，還要很多的管考、KPI、預算、期程，不能只是靠現在用秘書彙編，然後侷限於現行的組織框架、政策工具、法令，還有缺乏訓練的情況之下來彙編，這是沒辦法去扛起這個大責的啦！院長，你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不僅認同，我們也是朝這個方向，我們有社會福利推動委員會……"],["吳委員春城：好，其實……"],["卓院長榮泰：那也是由院長來召集的，雖然不是跟日本這樣一個單一的訴求，我們一定會把那個議題，即剛剛陳時中政委所努力過的這個過程放在裡面做一個重要的……"],["吳委員春城：我覺得有誠意沒有決心，有決心要做就要做到底，其實也不用效法日本，我們自己行政院就有了，只是看你重不重視這個國安新問題，現在行政院效能做得不錯的是能源及減碳辦公室，已經有這個減碳辦公室，依照中央行政機關組織基準法第二十八條就可以成立這些組織編制，所以現在有法令派任，然後要有召集人，要由副院長以上的人來擔任召集人，還有共同副召集人，像經濟部、環境部在這裡是擔任副召集人，還有委員代表、各機關代表14人，外部專家學者、民間團體3到9人，之下還有設辦公室、執行長、副執行長、主任、副主任等等，還有分組的各種業務，這樣子有關人口的問題這件事情涉及的13個部會都來了，再看看有沒有決心而已，有決心就應該要比照這樣的方式才有辦法，而這個是解決未來臺灣一半人口的幸福。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，不僅有決心還要有行動，在社會福利推動委員會召開的19次會議當中，跟委員報告，17到19次這幾次裡面都有把壯世代的議題列為一個討論，是不是我們會後可以把討論的重點再跟委員做詳細的說明跟報告？"],["吳委員春城：OK！好，因為我知道前面的問題啦，我真的也看得出院長的誠意，但是我們沒有找到問題的核心、沒有找到問題的核心！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們繼續努力。"],["吳委員春城：才會有64項都是用秘書彙編，所以我覺得關鍵在這裡。院長，現在倒數95天了，明年1月1號開始，臺灣進入超高齡社會，現在大家在看，包括媒體輿論，你可以看所有雜誌都在做高齡議題，大家在等待，而我們的行政院竟然在當中放棄了領導權，沒有回應，零零落落，叫各部會自己自行處理，這樣子大家怎麼會安心呢？這樣子大家怎麼有信心呢？所以院長可否承諾在行政院設立專責的壯世代政策辦公室，可否？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有把它放到各部會的秘書工作，我想我們陳時中政委一直在召集這樣的工作，他已經到了一個院級的工作了。"],["吳委員春城：我知道，但是要比照像減碳辦公室這樣的編制、按照這樣的組織法來成立，你那個只是交代，你要馬兒跑，但是不給牠吃草……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["吳委員春城：只有叫他的秘書，他的秘書都累了，秘書找大家來開會宣示一下，以後大家來彙編，編就是叫他們報……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會……"],["吳委員春城：現在又只能這樣作業。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會謹記剛剛委員所說的，有想法還要有決心，還要下去行動，我跟委員講，我們的決心都是夠的。"],["吳委員春城：對，我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：行動，或許剛開始我們在蒐集更完整的資料，但最後我們就會收斂並提出幾個重點的計畫，在……"],["吳委員春城：院長，可不可以承諾來成立這個辦公室？這個問題我已經陳述……我看周邊這個是大數據，這個涉及到這麼多問題，這是一個國安問題，這是個希望工程的問題、扶養比的問題、少子化的問題、社福要破產的問題、ESG所有這些的問題都跟這件事情有關，各部會都有問題，行政院還不扛起這個責任來？可不可以扛起？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會負擔起這個責任，因為現在……"],["吳委員春城：院長可以成立嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為現在我們在社福推動委員會當中已經有這個議題，也要經過大家再共同討論，我們是不是有需要提升、轉換或是強化相關的組織？大家來討論之後……"],["吳委員春城：院長，你是領導，我跟你講，這件事情我非常清楚了，這樣子就是在推諉了……"],["卓院長榮泰：不，我們會再向委員報告。"],["吳委員春城：我們在全民面前，我們希望看到一個有為、有承擔、面對超高齡社會能給人民承諾的，因為這件事情只有決心的問題，不是技術性的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員的承諾就是，我們會在現在的機制底下將它做怎樣的強化，但是終究的目的就是讓超高齡世代跟壯世代都有一個更豐富的未來……"],["吳委員春城：院長，我跟你講，那個剛才已經說過了，社會福利委員會的思維，那個就單軌，你再把這個放在這個單軌底下，就死路一條啦！保證死路一條！我們已經搞太久了啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：或者是我們國發會，它現在已經有一個人口對策的相關組織，我們可以把它做內容、功能的強化，是不是請主委來說明一下？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我跟委員報告一下，我剛剛跟陳政委有做討論，我們認為整個人口的問題都必須被探討，不是只有壯世代，從年輕人要不要生小孩一路到老，所以我們希望成立一個人口對策的辦公室，而不是只有壯世代，那我們會把壯世代列為裡面重要的一個議題，所以這個辦公室底下會有壯世代，會有老人、有青壯年。"],["吳委員春城：所以你的意思就是在國發會設立一個人口政策辦公室？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不是國發會，這個還是陳政委在主導，我們會在陳政委領導下，從行政院的角度來做這件事。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，日前我們討論過人口政策的時候，大概都有這樣交換意見，只是還沒有把它當作一個成熟對外發表的過程，所以我說我還要跟陳政委、社福推動委員會及國發會再做一個比較完整的規劃，我覺得推出來不是一個空的架構、空的組織，它必須要有精神、內容跟計畫期程，這樣我們才能夠對後續的工作有十足的掌握。"],["吳委員春城：我跟院長報告，現在馬上就要進入超高齡社會了，你今天在這裡不能做承諾、沒有決心，那全民都看到……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有動作，我們有行動。"],["吳委員春城：對！這是一個決心的問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我們是有絕對的承諾面對人口的問題，那壯世代是人口問題的一部分。"],["吳委員春城：但是是非常核心的一部分，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["吳委員春城：非常核心，而且跟你講，這個跟高齡化、少子化是一體兩面……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，它可以擴大分母。"],["吳委員春城：掌握三分之二財富，金管會也是這樣子，這些財富都鎖在這裡，年輕人沒有未來，變成死水經濟，包括長壽經濟，這是年輕人未來最重要的產業發展，包括教育，包括文化，所有的層面、所有要談的問題的觀念，就是我們要把一場災難的銀髮海嘯變成國家發展動力，這是兩個不同的思維，你們都只是要處理銀髮海嘯而已，想要防範、圍堵它，然後什麼的……壯世代一個更積極的思維，就是變成國家發展的動力、年輕人的未來，你有這麼積極……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我個人也不認為銀髮是海嘯，這是國家的資產。"],["吳委員春城：這是學術用詞，OK，所以院長，如果今天你沒有承諾，那麼可否在一個月之內，把你現在的全盤計畫回復讓我知道，聞香一下，讓我知道，我才能跟大家交代。"],["卓院長榮泰：人口政策的討論，我想國發會在一個月當中，一定會有一些定論。"],["吳委員春城：可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：人口政策的討論，國發會會有一個定論……"],["吳委員春城：好吧！那我一個月之內……"],["卓院長榮泰：我請主委和陳時中政委，我們討論……"],["吳委員春城：國發會或政委這邊來……讓我們繼續來……"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第24位林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-09-27"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137601_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-09-27","影片長度":"00:30:50","end_time":"2024-09-27T11:16:19+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154919","委員名稱":"陳雪生","duration":1850,"start_time":"2024-09-27T10:45:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7581ac2c05948052ac3ff2db64862b81b4afc9d995ccd4a25fd62ecd5454ce025a65960676c3fd835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.85784375,"end":4.82346875},{"speaker":"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是不是請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":39.091,"end":68.515,"text":"陳委員好 剛剛不好意思院長早安謝謝您關心我的健康大家都關心我想托院長的福好不好保重這兩天新聞說這個中央政府總預算被退回了其實我心裡面也很難過那麼在答詢裡面當然也有很多地方的建設我也了然於胸用錢 沒有錢的話地方工程再再沒辦法那個"},{"start":69.161,"end":97.757,"text":"我想以院長您的態度謙卑謙卑我想對一個政治人物來講也沒算丟人的事情所以剛才蔡行商副院長也講到希望跟韓院長還有找幾位總召茶敘喝咖啡都可以聊聊天把這個困境解決這比較重要而不是說對抗三黨對抗我覺得這不是上色院長你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":99.307,"end":121.557,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒跟督促我們就是朝這個方向在進行我覺得能夠跟韓院長坐下來談談話我們都能夠了解彼此內心想法那我們只要把這個想法現在如何化成為一個做法實際上的作為我會繼續請我們的部會首長能夠說明清楚主動的跟"},{"start":122.408,"end":148.104,"text":"朝野各黨團說明清楚反對黨的議事也是主要說立法院三讀通過的一些法案那麼行政院沒有照沒有依法行政沒有列入他們主要的抗爭我覺得問題所在是在這裡雪生也願意藉著老命綿薄之力我也希望能夠充滿也能夠促成謝謝這是雪中送炭謝謝接下來都是幾個老問題"},{"start":152.299,"end":162.403,"text":"在這邊是不是也請報告主席,請交通部長一起備詢?請交通部長備詢北竿機場從102年,我們馬祖沒有一個安全的機場,連3C都沒有從102年民航局估計北竿大概4C的機場建設經費需要300億"},{"start":175.939,"end":203.708,"text":"那麼經過可行性評估還有這個環評都已經通過了當然行政院也核定了200億的預算200多一點的預算做山西機場的一個興建我再次強調 院長我弟弟一家五口在北竿的上空歷難我每次回馬祖去尤其在南竿機場的跑道跟航空母艦降落一樣"},{"start":204.895,"end":230.833,"text":"每一次的冊封我想去的乘客都提心吊膽所以拜託院長對山西機場要特別重視這個案通過以後民航局也找了一些相關的部門配套等等這些做事都要做因為北竿機場興建很重要很重要"},{"start":232.885,"end":260.703,"text":"執政黨在我們馬祖基層的黨部很像不停的放話覺得說我們老百姓反對我們在前幾天的會議裡面北竿的鄉代也好村長也好一共13席出席那麼有11個人贊成吳晉民投票11個人贊成一個人沒意見一個人缺席所以表示大家是支持的但是這裡面就是興建機場的同時"},{"start":262.066,"end":284.5,"text":"會有一些噪音、空污等等我希望交通部回去檢討督促民航局做一些配套的措施那麼這個機場關閉以後有一些航空站的消防員、民航的這些作業人員要到南竿去要到南竿去上班所以坐船的費用等等我們可以優惠或者免費"},{"start":286.192,"end":306.819,"text":"對北竿地區的一些商業活動可能也會減少我們可以借著消費券或是幹什麼等等做一些配套的措施來做那麼地方的執政黨部覺得說很像我們縣政府或是立委都不管其實錢都在民航局主政單位是交通部"},{"start":308.905,"end":333.059,"text":"我們沒有意見是不是請部長在幾個月之內回答我好不好能夠把它完成配套措施配套措施的部分目前正在跟地方政府正在協議正在協商當中 連江縣政府也有提出一些想法在建設計畫啟動之前還有一些其他工程的相關配套"},{"start":336.78,"end":361.745,"text":"建設計畫的期程是不是也請部長告訴我能不能在短短幾個月之內趕快把配套措施做好配套的部分現在跟地方大家都還在討論我們也不是只有民航局我們的港務公司他們也要協助來辦理這件事情所以橫向的聯繫也還在聯繫在溝通當中這個部分我們會盡快"},{"start":363.496,"end":374.229,"text":"我們希望把雜音剪到最低的程度好不好也拜託周院長您利用你的影響力跟地方黨部講一下不要再去阻擋了好不好"},{"start":374.89,"end":399.137,"text":"我們有聽到一些關於這個工期較長而且工程進行之後產生的一些影響乃至於未來南北間之間交通的狀況跟方便性這個我們都有聽到但是跟委員我們不會聽少數的聲音但是我們會綜合大家的意見做一個大家地方上最圓滿和諧的方式來進行我希望執政黨的執政黨部跟我們縣政府"},{"start":402.133,"end":428.532,"text":"大家合作 大家團結在一起來 為馬祖地區如果委員認為合適 我也願意到馬祖再去走一趟看看大家真正的地方的反應是如何是是是 好不好另外一個就是 了掉重產 馬祖大橋我想我跟院長提過好幾次了馬祖大橋的興建在107年12月10號由我們現任總統 也是前行政院院長賴清德先生 同意"},{"start":429.76,"end":458.292,"text":"連江縣南北跨海大橋可行性的評估案辦理綜合規劃我們的公路總局也花了一億五千萬去做了綜合規劃這個綜合規劃做出來以後經過我們世西 周院長知道世西嘛世西是我們頂尖的工程顧問一個公司說是民營其實大部分都是公股"},{"start":459.42,"end":480.628,"text":"他的可靠性是很高的那麼交通部三次報院院裡面秘書是轉到國發會國發會每次一直退都是以技術性為由一直退那麼在去年國發會把他送到"},{"start":485.401,"end":512.898,"text":"跟我說明了花了五六百萬拿到英國去做最後的技術性的一個確定院長你知道英國的人事費多高嗎五百萬我評估只夠花人事費因為對這個整個的海床水文鑽探這問題這些要花很多的錢世襲花了一億多去搞這個東西所以我聽說"},{"start":514.215,"end":540.554,"text":"英國這家公司又回頭來問世西底下海底的狀況是怎麼樣水溫是怎麼樣氣候是怎麼樣這樣一個評估報告國發會主委您回答我一下好不好這個報告我們星期一會送到院回來了沒有下個星期一會送我們今天應該會完成他們有什麼意見嗎"},{"start":542.553,"end":570.346,"text":"這個可能要報院之後我們才好好回覆我想院長我們講陳無信不立陳信我認為是很重要的這一個案子經過可行性評估經過綜合規劃經過交通部下面的學者專家一次又一次的檢討報院再送國發會已經那麼久了"},{"start":572.087,"end":599.907,"text":"從開始到現在已經有7年的期程了老闆一直說我在騙他們我在騙選票院長我今年73歲我想幹完應該是退休的年齡我想應該安享一些天年那麼院長也關心到我的健康我確實跟以前體力確實差了很多我也希望退休但是鄉親覺得這個事情沒有完成很像我在騙人"},{"start":601.726,"end":628.816,"text":"我跟他們一直解釋在裡面有他的困難度賴總統也講了好幾次攸關馬祖未來百年發展大計的橋是馬祖人應得的大橋案在自己手中推動一定全力以赴這是賴總統講過的話"},{"start":631.277,"end":657.851,"text":"我想請院長也跟賴總統報告這個案子在蔡英文總統手上蔡英文總統答應我了當然她現在卸任了蘇貞燦院長也答應我了OK沒問題那麼她也卸任了那麼現在我們是卓院長我想以我跟卓院長我們私交也好公語也好我希望卓院長能夠跟賴總統報告因為你看金門已經有大橋"},{"start":658.735,"end":686.755,"text":"彭胡有大橋甚至楊耀委員要做第二座的大橋馬祖能夠把南竿跟北竿能夠做一個連結兩座機場並為一個機場作為一個連結的話第一個我們把地域面積擴大區域面積擴大都市計畫做一個重新的規劃整理做一個更新對馬祖未來的發展那個是非常深遠的所以這是我任立法委員期間"},{"start":688.061,"end":699.927,"text":"是最重要的任務,我也跟前總統、先前總統都報告了這是我的最後一里路,希望主委長能夠成全,您覺得可以嗎?"},{"start":701.164,"end":719.364,"text":"首先委員健康一定無恙一定繼續為地方來轉達聲音爭取各項的建設我雖然過去到現在我們一直知道這座橋的工程從水文從海象從工程本身的進行都具有相當的複雜性跟挑戰性"},{"start":720.725,"end":722.486,"text":"國發會主委我是沒見過啦我是希望齁"},{"start":744.54,"end":765.695,"text":"我們世襲花了1億5千萬在做這樣的一個技術性的評估你去相信英國花500萬他們寫出的報告你會相信嗎而且他所有裡面的資料很多都是截取我們世襲的公司裡面的一些資料所以您要做審證的評估"},{"start":766.912,"end":767.052,"text":"賴清德總統講"},{"start":789.969,"end":815.016,"text":"經費不是問題你說預計八年完工我昨天前天找了航港局來他要做旁邊的護體工程護體工程以後對施工的期程還可以縮短一兩年所以不要那麼久的時間所以拜託了院長這樣子一直公文來來去去來來去去來來去去來了六七年你覺得很好玩嗎"},{"start":816.483,"end":843.271,"text":"我們加緊來把這個事情看看報告之後如何迅速的來做一個方向確定我們共同來討論我還會再問我想我說也說得很煩了您可能聽也聽得很煩陳雪生每天找我都是馬祖大橋的事我們知道委員對橋對機場的關心是一直如此的這個是橋是馬祖的百年大計這個橋跟機場如果能夠連結"},{"start":846.075,"end":868.333,"text":"我想我們中央政府重視離島偏鄉我這幾年說實在話我對執政黨的聲音是非常小的為什麼我一直抱著感恩的心所以我在崇禎很少去介入黨派的立場介入黨派的立場只有剛才說預算被退回我希望從中能夠做一點努力"},{"start":868.823,"end":894.058,"text":"我也希望院長能夠以更謙卑的態度找韓院長諮商找兩位的總召大家都有個下台階把這個事情能夠圓滿的解決因為1月1號很快很快就要到了這裡面有公務人員的加薪加薪是不成問題的那是法定的一個基礎那錢是可以發的所以我拜託這幾個月"},{"start":896.738,"end":897.279,"text":"好跟委員報告"},{"start":904.008,"end":932.923,"text":"我會請陳世凱部長不僅從一座橋跟一個機場的存廢問題我們希望從連江線四鄉五島整體的交通運輸未來經濟發展上面來做整體的規劃來做一個比較全盤性的規劃我想這個我會請交通部跟經濟部或是相關的部會我們都來做這樣的思考我會從縣長、議長去行政院看院長因為院長剛上任我們考量到你的公務一定很忙"},{"start":933.683,"end":948.05,"text":"所以我盡量不去炒你我可以去我可以去好不好我們盡量但是馬子你沒去過吧去過阿只是上任之後還沒有去過上任的時候我一直想再去走不管怎麼樣連江縣也是我們中華民國的一個縣市當然是縣長找適當的時機"},{"start":952.27,"end":981.148,"text":"找天后比較好一點不要你飛機降落的時候在那邊提心吊膽的好不好我還很懷念秦碧的美麗那再謝謝這個委員一直談到對總預算你的關心我再請委員幫忙我也會努力你的幫忙真的是雪中送炭民生有望我在黨裡面我一定盡全力去處理好不好不管怎麼樣他們不看金面看佛面不管怎麼樣我也是一個老幹部嘛是不是他們也會給我一些面子但是"},{"start":981.601,"end":1003.576,"text":"你們一定要很努力好不好不要去對抗去對抗的話不是好事情不是人民之福不是社會國家之福好不好好那交通部長跟主委請回好不好我想請國防部部長有沒有來今天不曉得 顧部長顧部長能不能請您上台一下好不好"},{"start":1006.516,"end":1019.474,"text":"最近這幾天北竿的民眾從鄉長鄉在村長我電話至少接了100多通什麼事呢北竿靶場的事情北竿靶場我講了幾年了我講了7年了"},{"start":1021.784,"end":1046.598,"text":"那麼顧部長到馬祖去的時候我還不知道我後來聽說他來了我匆匆忙忙跑到機場去給他送行顧部長對不起這個不知道您大人歷歷馬祖我沒有跟你做接待沒有跟你做接待我到機場跟你會個面這個靶場在我們的堂崎淡黃區也就是現在的東區跟西門町的這個比喻"},{"start":1048.186,"end":1077.125,"text":"旁邊是小學、中學、醫院、運動場他不是打槍喔不是射擊不是光步槍射擊喔機關槍在那邊ㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤ的然後他又沒有時間的問題喔部隊他不會通知你啊他可能隨時啊打籃球打到一半了突然發生放鞭炮了不知道什麼事齁這個對我們周邊的噪音也好居民的安全也好大大造成問題"},{"start":1078.086,"end":1103.08,"text":"我講了7年了好 軍方現在提出來了提出來一個A案一個B案A案要4億9千多萬B案要9億多要9億多那麼他的一個原則國防部的立場非常堅定要再拆再建院長清朝的靶場花了20萬塊錢"},{"start":1104.844,"end":1132.129,"text":"就是弄幾張一個靶勾幾張靶紙這邊對一些草包中間都是草在以前設計是這樣設計訓練的現在你要做一個五億九億的一個現代化的靶場我們部隊有多少部隊700多個人在去掉休假的官兵不過剩下500個人嘛你覺得這個經濟效益評估在哪裡"},{"start":1133.103,"end":1162.483,"text":"你要做個9億5億的靶場要連江縣政府來出這個錢我們才願意搬走在座的各位領導你們覺得是不是笑話一則我們今天是幹什麼我們準備反攻大陸嗎那我也不去自損自己的威風現在大陸不是要金門馬祖用打的嗎我看也不可能他不要嘛他外海那邊把你圍起來餓都可以把你餓死是不是這樣"},{"start":1163.479,"end":1183.967,"text":"所以我們一直希望就是說藉著金門馬祖跟彼岸的一個緩衝能夠來對台灣跟大陸能夠做一個緩衝我們金門馬祖民眾的心態一直是這樣的當然我們也心傷著台灣一定是這樣雖然有一些因為在那邊自殘"},{"start":1185.325,"end":1214.507,"text":"有一些冠冕堂皇的話我們也不得不說啊是不是不得不說啊所以畢竟啊都是中華的子孫嘛中華的炎黃子孫那我們的親戚也都在對面對面親戚也都在這邊所以這個事情靶場啊部長我跟你報告我在前幾年的總諮詢裡面我說給你兩年的時間如果你繼續打靶我躺在那個地方躺在靶溝讓你打你可以來打我"},{"start":1215.731,"end":1240.197,"text":"你覺得怎麼樣跟委員報告因為現在這個靶場的這個要作為一個訓練用這個是必要的那靶場現在的一個要求在經過這個工程公司針對這兩筆土地實施評估的結果是根據專業評估的結果所需要的一個經費那"},{"start":1242.83,"end":1272.314,"text":"您剛剛也提到了A案跟B案A案的部分是比較錢比較少一點這個是經過專業的評估的我們還是需要這個靶場來作為駐地軍隊的訓練這件事情我不需要拿到議會裡面來向卓院長來討論這件事情拿到國防委員會去報告就可以了去質詢你就好了我為什麼拿到這裡來所以太久了已經7年了我跟你報告明年1月份開始"},{"start":1273.663,"end":1293.358,"text":"明年1月份開始你們一地訓練500個阿兵哥大概打靶訓練射擊訓練不過100個人不得了了坐船移到南竿去打靶我們不再妥協了如果你明年1月份還要繼續打靶的話我躺在那邊跟你抗爭委員萬萬不可這個國軍"},{"start":1298.618,"end":1326.416,"text":"保衛國家的安全是政府的責任更是國軍神聖的任務所以國軍必須接受到基本的訓練來守護他這個守護的能力這個是必要的至於說這個過程當中長年來的問題我想顧部長會很積極的去想一個方式跟委員再討論我們如何能夠也符合國軍基本的訓練那也能夠地方大家不再有這麼大的反彈"},{"start":1327.777,"end":1353.964,"text":"那國防部一團死水在那邊一直給我拖一直拖馬祖防衛部跟我講說等中山國中蓋好中山國中現在去標的沒有人標欸馬祖工程沒有人標台灣搶標搶得要死啊馬祖現場要一個一個去拜託為什麼呢缺工缺料工材上漲而且海象不好充滿了變數預期罰款罰得非常重沒有人標工程欸"},{"start":1355.254,"end":1369.189,"text":"沒有人表明,都是用拜託的所以院長、部長拜託,靶場的事情12月底為止請馬祖防衛指揮部一地訓練可以不可以"},{"start":1370.885,"end":1397.968,"text":"你後面慢慢規劃我沒有意見你後面規劃個10年我都沒意見馬黃布就我了解9月18號已經發函給連江縣政府還是我們還是希望連江縣政府能夠盡速確認這個簽件的薪資用地的範圍縣政府哪來的10億5億啊院長你很清楚吧小小一個連江縣政府哪有5億10億的錢啊"},{"start":1399.963,"end":1424.8,"text":"怎麼可能 我們五千萬都拿不出來你知道我拿五億而且你這個是清朝的時候蓋的靶場你現在是民國的官還在想清朝的事怎麼可能我是不是顧部長跟委員乃至於跟縣政府我們談一下有沒有新的地方確定可以去談過很多次了確定新的地方之後我們再來想這個後續我建議部長要跟主席長跟財政部部長去談這個事情"},{"start":1426.705,"end":1445.524,"text":"因為他們有內規他們的規定是待拆待建而且是建好以後我才你要先建好先建後拆除了待拆待建還先建後拆這個很煩所以我跟院長跟部長報告一個月份"},{"start":1446.482,"end":1472.419,"text":"你不要怪我不客氣我發動全民抗爭拜託委員再給我們一點時間不要說你剛剛說的代猜代鑒或是先鑒後猜就是邊鑒邊猜到年底也不可能完成我們還是在想一個方法不可能完成的啦不可能完成的我評估他去發包都發包不出去所以我們再大家談一個適合的時間方式地點我們請部長跟委員繼續溝通我覺得你們這個承諾不算數"},{"start":1473.973,"end":1500.782,"text":"我上一次質詢 全面質詢七年了勒 到現在原地踏步 原封不動老闆已經在罵 立委我說你去找縣政府嘛縣政府說我們公文商業大國防部根本不理我們啊是不是 那我沒辦法啦 他們又找到立委什麼東西都是立委是不是 你叫我怎麼辦 我手上也沒有尚方保健我手上也沒有武器部長幫忙解決這個問題"},{"start":1503.735,"end":1531.412,"text":"我雖然很話講在前面但是你們真的要好好去思考一下國防部連想都不去想這個事情有這樣的事我不會跟你們妥協這件事我不會跟你妥協我們還是希望能夠不影響這個戰備演訓的前提之下來進行那靶場的設置是有對我們的戰備訓練是有必要的他預定坐在這裡這個山坡怎麼挖"},{"start":1532.456,"end":1559.883,"text":"這還要環評當然他不是一公頃以上一公頃以上要環評你這怎麼做九億五百個人去做個九百億的靶場我以前在中山分局服務中山分局還不止五百個人你去問他靶場有多大他一直跑到翠山上面去打他跑去哪裡打移地嘛做個船到南竿去打嘛要那麼大的空間來做個靶場幹什麼浪費 真的是浪費"},{"start":1562.984,"end":1585.701,"text":"人家說浪費比貪污還可怕這個就是叫浪費你知道嗎 500個人還會少我聽報宅講金門馬祖還要再撤兵你部隊還要再撤你還要再撤到時候兵會更少所以部長你好好思考一下這個問題好不好那部長我想不浪費時間你請回好不好我剩下的時間還要問一下那個國產署"},{"start":1590.359,"end":1615.476,"text":"財政部財政部是財政部麻煩請財政部中央部長備選部長你再留步一下好不好部長對不起 顧部長因為這裡面牽扯到軍備局再請國防部顧部長備選院長你知道國防部軍備局跟財政部的國產署占領我們馬祖的土地占比是多少你知道嗎馬祖的"},{"start":1617.35,"end":1637.357,"text":"土地 整個馬祖土地 請部長說明是 跟委員報告在馬祖地區已經登記的有2500多公頃那國有的部分事實上佔了88%所以國有的部分包含國防部也包含國產署金管大概佔了百分之八成院長你聽到了沒有國產署軍備局佔領我們全馬祖88的"},{"start":1645.815,"end":1673.013,"text":"百分之八十八的土地院長你如果是林鄉縣縣長你對這個縣你準備怎麼規劃我們只有百分之十二的土地在玩喔是委員一定清楚這一定是有他的歷史的因素歷史你講的歷史更好暫地政務以前是阿兵哥阿兵哥以前根本都沒有人管的那個地方啊我們跟大陸那邊魚啊換來換去交易啊"},{"start":1675.356,"end":1699.466,"text":"那個袁大頭換來換去都沒事的現在管得可緊了金門發生牛疫馬祖這邊豬肉也管制我們養一隻土雞生幾個雞蛋出來還要經過檢查我們已經是次等公民了你說為了國人的安全我請問馬祖人是不是國人金門人是不是國人"},{"start":1700.339,"end":1701.48,"text":"現在國產組我還是麻辣"},{"start":1724.554,"end":1754.057,"text":"真的比強盜土匪還凶悍土地的一個情況您也很清楚第一個在辦理總登記的時候民眾如果認為是私有的他可以申請登記部長你如果有空的話我去拜訪你好不好我來拜會委員請你接見我一下好不好我來拜會委員我想請你接見我一下好不好時間可以的話我就來拜會委員因為時間的關係好不好那個部長具備局最近有表現比較好一點"},{"start":1755.478,"end":1779.191,"text":"國產署是表現得很兇悍軍備局啊 軍備局比較好一點我以前總支區一上台就是請軍備局局長跟國產部長下台為什麼 他們做了一些很糟糕的事情好不好 那麼兩位請回另外請教院長今天衛福部部長有沒有來邱部長對不起請邱部長備詢我在選舉期間執政黨地方黨部"},{"start":1784.943,"end":1814.213,"text":"一直要求說馬祖的縣立醫院應該改為部立醫院我今天是很慎重的我今天是很慎重的跟院長報告這件事情您覺得縣立醫院改為部立醫院如何據我所知先前的連江縣政府好像有不大一樣的評估的報告不是把縣立醫院改為部立醫院就好了這禮拜要一公頃的土地"},{"start":1814.997,"end":1825.002,"text":"雖然之前地方政府好像有不同的見解但是我認為衛福部所俠所有能夠提升離島地區醫療服務水準的工作我們都不會放掉我們都會列為重點在做我想衛福部也已經有相當多的進展"},{"start":1843.203,"end":1843.343,"text":"陳雪生議員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:45:29 - 11:16:19","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"154919","gazette":{"lineno":616,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（10時45分）院長早安，是不是請行政院卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好，剛剛不好意思。"],["陳委員雪生：院長早安，謝謝您關心我的健康，我想托院長的福，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：大家都關心，保重。"],["陳委員雪生：這兩天新聞說中央政府總預算被退回了，其實我心裡面也很難過，在答詢裡面，當然也有很多地方的建設，我也了然於胸，要用錢沒有錢的話，地方工程在在沒辦法推動。我想以院長您的態度，謙卑謙卑，我想對一個政治人物來講的話，也沒算丟人的事情，所以剛才蔡其昌副院長也講到，希望跟韓院長還有找幾位總召茶敘、喝咖啡、聊聊天都可以把這個困境解決，這個比較重要，而不是說三黨對抗，我覺得這不是上策。院長，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒跟督促，我們就是朝這個方向在進行，我覺得能夠跟韓院長坐下來談談話，我們都能夠了解彼此內心的想法，我們現在只要把這個想法如何化成為一個作法、實際上的作為，我會繼續請我們的部會首長能夠主動的跟朝野各黨團說明清楚，那我特別也拜託韓院長……"],["陳委員雪生：反對黨的意思主要也是說，立法院三讀通過的一些法案，行政院沒有依法行政沒有列入，他們主要的抗爭，我覺得問題所在是在這裡，雪生也願意盡這條老命的棉薄之力，我也希望能夠從旁促成，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，這樣真是雪中送炭，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝。接下來大概都是幾個老問題，在這邊是不是也報告主席請交通部長一起備詢，好不好？"],["主席：請交通部長備詢。"],["陳委員雪生：北竿機場從102年，我們馬祖沒有一個安全的機場，連3C都沒有啦！就102年民航局的估計，北竿大概建設4C機場的經費需要300億，可行性評估還有環評都已經通過了，當然行政院也核定了二百多億的預算做3C機場的興建。我再次強調，院長，我弟弟一家五口在北竿的上空罹難，我每次回馬祖去，尤其要降落在南竿機場的跑道上跟航空母艦降落一樣，每一次的側風，我想去的乘客都提心吊膽，所以我拜託院長，對3C機場要特別重視。此案通過以後，民航局現在也找了一些相關的部門擬定配套等等，這些措施都要做。","因為北竿機場的興建很重要、很重要，但是執政黨在我們馬祖基層的黨部好像不停的放話，覺得說我們老百姓反對。我們在前幾天的會議裡面，北竿的鄉代也好，村長也好，一共13席出席，無記名投票，有11個人贊成，一個人沒意見，一個人缺席，所以表示大家是支持的。但是興建機場的同時會有一些噪音、空污等等，我希望交通部回去檢討，督促民航局做一些配套的措施。在這個機場關閉以後，有一些航空站的消防員、民航的作業人員要到南竿去上班，所以對他們坐船的費用等等我們給予優惠或是免費，北竿地區的一些商業活動可能也會減少，我們可以藉著消費券或是幹什麼等等做一些配套措施。那麼地方的執政黨部覺得很像我們縣政府或者立委都不管，其實錢都在民航局，主政單位是交通部，所以我們沒有意見啦！請部長在幾個月之內回答我，好不好？你們能夠完成配套措施。"],["陳部長世凱：好，關於配套措施的部分，目前正在跟地方政府協議，正在協商當中，那連江縣政府也有提出一些想法，對這個部分我們在幾個月內儘量來溝通。"],["陳委員雪生：好，那麼在建設計畫啟動之前還有一些其他工程的相關配套，進入建設計畫的期程，是不是也請部長告訴我，能不能在短短幾個月之內趕快把配套措施做好，比如航港局跟運研所。"],["陳部長世凱：是，關於配套的部分，我們現在跟地方大家都還在討論。"],["陳委員雪生：是。"],["陳部長世凱：那也不是只有民航局，我們的港務公司他們也要協助來辦理這件事情，所以橫向的聯繫也還在溝通當中，那這個部分我們會儘快。"],["陳委員雪生：我們希望把雜音減到最低的程度，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：也拜託卓院長利用你的影響力跟地方黨部講一下，不要再去阻擋，好不好？他們很像希望這個機場蓋不成啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們有聽到一些關於這個工期較長，而且工程進行之後產生的一些影響，乃至於未來南北竿之間交通的狀況跟方便性，這個我們都有聽到，但是跟委員報告，我們不會聽少數的聲音，但是我們會綜合大家的意見，來以一個大家、地方上最圓滿、和諧的方式來進行。"],["陳委員雪生：我希望執政黨的地方黨部跟我們縣政府大家合作。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我們大家團結在一起來為馬祖地區做事。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果委員認為合適，我也願意到馬祖再去走一趟，看看地方、大家真正的反應是如何。"],["陳委員雪生：是，好不好？","另外一個就是老調重彈──馬祖大橋，我想我跟院長提過好幾次了，馬祖大橋的興建在107年12月10號由我們現任總統也就是前行政院長賴清德先生同意「連江縣南北竿跨海大橋可行性評估案」辦理綜合規劃，我們的公路總局也花了1億5,000萬去做了綜合規劃，這個綜合規劃做出來以後經過世曦……卓院長知道世曦嘛！世曦是我們頂尖的工程顧問公司，雖然說是民營，其實大部分都是公股，它的可靠性是很高的。交通部3次報院，院裡面秘書處轉到國發會，那國發會一直退、一直退，都是以技術性為由一直退。在去年國發會把它送到英國去，聽說花了五、六百萬，龔主委跟我說明了，花了五、六百萬拿到英國去做最後的技術性確定。院長，你知道英國的人事費多高嗎？依我的評估500萬只夠付人事費，因為對這整個海床、水文、鑽探的問題，這些要花很多的錢。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員雪生：世曦花了一億多去搞這個東西，我聽說英國這家公司又回頭來問世曦在海底的狀況是怎麼樣、水文是怎麼樣、氣候是怎麼樣，對這樣一個評估報告，國發會主委，請您回答我一下，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個報告我們在星期一會送到院。"],["陳委員雪生：回來了沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：在下個星期一會送，我們今天應該會完成。"],["陳委員雪生：他們有什麼意見嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個可能要報院之後，我們才好回復。"],["陳委員雪生：好，院長，我們講誠無信不立，是不是？我認為誠信是很重要的，這個案子經過可行性評估，經過綜合規劃，經過交通部下面的學者專家一次又一次的檢討，報院再送國發會，已經那麼久了，從開始到現在已經有7年的期程了，老百姓說我在騙他們、我在騙選票。院長，我今年73歲，我想幹完應該是退休的年齡了，我想應該安享一些天年，院長也關心到我的健康嘛，我跟以前體力確實差了很多，我也希望退休，但是鄉親覺得這個事情沒有完成，很像我在騙人，我跟他們一直解釋說這裡面有它的困難度。","賴總統也講了好幾次，攸關馬祖未來百年發展大計的橋是馬祖人應得的，大橋案在自己手中推動，一定全力以赴。這是賴總統講過的話，我想請院長也跟賴總統報告，這個案子在蔡英文總統手上，蔡英文總統答應我了，當然她現在卸任了，蘇貞昌院長也答應我了，OK，沒問題，他也卸任了，現在是卓院長，我想以我跟卓院長的私交也好，公務也好，我希望卓院長能夠跟賴總統報告，因為你看金門已經有大橋，澎湖有大橋，甚至楊曜委員要做第二座大橋，馬祖能夠把南竿跟北竿做一個連結，兩座機場併為一個機場做為一個連結的話，第一個，我們把地域面積擴大、區域面積擴大，都市計畫做一個重新的規劃、整理、做一個更新，對馬祖未來發展的影響是非常深遠的，所以這是我在立法委員期間最重要的任務。我跟前總統、現任總統都報告了，這是我的最後一哩路，希望卓院長能夠成全，您覺得可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，委員健康一定無恙，一定繼續為地方來轉達聲音、爭取各項的建設。雖然從過去到現在我們一直知道這座橋的工程從水文、從海象、從工程本身的進行，都具有相當的複雜性跟挑戰性，不過，剛剛我們國發會劉鏡清主委說下禮拜會把最新的報告送院裡面來看，我跟委員報告，我一定會非常詳細的看看內容如何進行下一步，如何來跟委員做報告，以及對整個案子我們朝哪個方向能夠迅速的來進行或推動。"],["陳委員雪生：國發會主委，我是沒見過啦，我就是希望，我們世曦花了1億5,000萬在做這樣一個技術性的評估，而英國花500萬，他們寫出的報告你會相信嗎？而且它所有裡面的資料很多都是擷取我們世曦公司裡面的一些資料，所以您要做審慎的評估。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。委員，其實當時為什麼是用500萬，就是有一部分的資料來自於世曦，尤其是對60米的那個部分，所以我們只是希望再由國外的角度來做一個比較有經驗跟安全的評估，所以這個報告我們會整合就回到院內。"],["陳委員雪生：賴清德總統講經費不是問題，你說預計8年完工，我前天找了航港局來，他們要做旁邊的護堤工程，做護堤工程以後，對施工的期程還可以縮短一、兩年，所以不要那麼久的時間，拜託了！院長，這樣子一直公文來來去去、來來去去、來來去去、來來去去六、七年，你覺得很好玩嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們加緊來把這個事情看看報告之後如何迅速的來做方向確定，委員，我們共同來討論。"],["陳委員雪生：我還會再問，我想我說也說得很煩了，您可能聽也聽得很煩了，怎麼陳雪生每天找我都是馬祖大橋的事。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，我們知道委員對橋、對機場的關心是一直如此的，我們也非常欽佩。"],["陳委員雪生：這個橋是馬祖的百年大計，這個橋跟機場如果能夠連結，我想我們中央政府重視離島偏鄉，這幾年說實在話，我對執政黨的聲音是非常小的，為什麼呢？我一直抱著感恩的心，所以我從政很少去介入黨派的立場，介入黨派的立場只有剛才說預算被退回，我希望從中能夠做一點努力，我也希望院長能夠以更謙卑的態度找韓院長諮商，是不是找兩位總召，大家都有個下臺階，把這個事情能夠圓滿的解決？因為1月1號很快就要到了，這裡面有公務人員的加薪，當然加薪是不成問題的啦！那是法定的一個基礎，那個錢是可以發的啦！","所以我拜託院長能夠承諾我，這幾個月到底是做還是不做，能不能給我一個具體的答案？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，跟委員報告，我會請陳世凱部長不僅從一座橋跟一個機場的存廢問題，我們希望從連江縣四鄉五島整體的交通運輸、未來經濟發展上面來做整體的規劃。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝、謝謝！"],["卓院長榮泰：來做一個比較全盤性的規劃，我想這個我會請交通部跟經濟部或相關的部會都來做這樣思考，我再跟委員討論。"],["陳委員雪生：我本來好幾次要會同縣長、議長去行政院看院長，因為院長剛上任，我們考量到你的公務一定很忙，所以我們儘量不去吵你。"],["卓院長榮泰：我可以去、我可以去。"],["陳委員雪生：我們儘量，但是馬祖你沒去過吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：去過啊！只是上任之後還沒有去過。"],["陳委員雪生：上任的時候……"],["卓院長榮泰：我一直想再去看看。"],["陳委員雪生：不管怎麼樣，連江縣也是我們中華民國的一個縣市。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是、當然是！"],["陳委員雪生：院長找適當的時機，找天候比較好一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員雪生：不要你飛機降落的時候在那邊提心吊膽的，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還很懷念芹壁的美麗。"],["陳委員雪生：這樣喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：再謝謝委員一直談到你對總預算的關心，我再請委員幫忙。"],["陳委員雪生：我也會努力。"],["卓院長榮泰：你的幫忙真的是雪中送炭、民生有望。"],["陳委員雪生：我在黨裡面，我一定盡全力去處理，好不好？不管怎麼樣，他們不看僧面，看佛面，不管怎麼樣，我也是一個老幹部嘛！是不是？他們也會給我一些面子，但是你們一定要很努力，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：一定，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：不要去跟人家對抗，去對抗的話不是好事情，不是人民之福，不是社會國家之福，好不好？","交通部長跟主委請回。我想請國防部部長，不曉得今天顧部長有沒有來？顧部長，能不能請您上臺一下，好不好？","最近這幾天，北竿的民眾從鄉長、鄉代、村長，我的電話至少接了一百多通，什麼事呢？就是北竿靶場的事情！針對北竿靶場我講了幾年？我講了7年了，顧部長到馬祖去的時候我還不知道，我後來聽說他來了，我匆匆忙忙跑到機場去送行，顧部長，對不起喔！"],["顧部長立雄：沒有、沒有。"],["陳委員雪生：不知道您大人蒞臨馬祖，我沒有接待您。"],["顧部長立雄：哪裡、哪裡！"],["陳委員雪生：我沒有接待您，就只到機場跟您會個面。","這個靶場在我們的塘岐蛋黃區，也就是現在的東區跟西門町這個比喻，旁邊是小學、中學、醫院、運動場，它不是打槍喔！不是射擊，不光是步槍射擊喔！而是機關槍在那邊「答！答！答！答！」，然後它又沒有時間的問題，部隊不會通知你啊！可能隨時打籃球打到一半，突然發生放鞭炮了，不知道什麼事，這個對我們周邊的噪音也好，居民的安全也好，大大造成問題。我講了7年了，好！軍方現在提出來了，提出來一個A案、一個B案，A案要4億9千多萬，B案要9億多啊！它的一個原則，國防部的立場非常堅定，要代拆代建！院長，那是清朝的靶場，花了20萬塊錢，就是弄一個靶溝、幾張靶紙，這邊堆一些草包，中間都是草，在以前是這樣射擊訓練的。結果現在你要做一個5億、9億的現代化靶場，我們部隊有多少人？部隊有700多個人，再去掉休假的官兵，不過剩下500個人嘛！你覺得這個經濟效益評估在哪裡？你要做個9億、5億的靶場，要連江縣政府來出這個錢才願意搬走。在座的各位領導，你們覺得是不是笑話一則？我們今天是幹什麼？我們準備反攻大陸嗎？我也不去自損自己的威風，現在大陸不是要金門、馬祖啊，用打的嗎？我看也不可能，他不要嘛！只要把外海那邊圍起來，餓都可以把你餓死！是不是這樣？所以我們一直希望藉著金門、馬祖跟彼岸的一個緩衝，對臺灣跟大陸能夠做一個緩衝，我們金門、馬祖民眾的心態一直是這樣的，是不是？當然我們也心向著臺灣，一定是這樣的，雖然有一些因為在那邊置產，有一些冠冕堂皇的話，我們也不得不說，是不是？不得不說啊！畢竟都是中華的炎黃子孫，我們的親戚也都在對面，對面親戚也都在這邊，所以這個事情關於靶場，我跟部長報告，我在前幾年的總質詢裡面，我說給你兩年的時間，如果你繼續打靶，我會躺在那個地方、躺在靶溝讓你打，你可以來打我，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為現在這個靶場要作為訓練使用，這是必要的，靶場現在的要求在經過工程顧問公司針對這兩筆土地實施評估的結果，是根據專業評估的結果所需要的經費，您剛剛也提到A案跟B案，A案的部分是錢比較少一點，這個是經過專業評估的，我們還是需要這個靶場來作為駐地軍隊的訓練。"],["陳委員雪生：這件事情我不需要拿到院會裡面來向卓院長討論這件事情，拿到國防委員會去報告就可以了、去質詢你就好了，我為什麼拿到這裡來？這個太久了嘛！已經7年了。我跟你報告，明年1月份開始，你們移地訓練，五百個阿兵哥，大概打靶訓練、射擊訓練不過一百個人，不得了了，坐船移到南竿去打靶，我們不再妥協了，如果你明年1月份還要繼續打靶，我躺在那邊跟你抗爭。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，萬萬不可、萬萬不可！國軍保衛國家的安全是政府的責任，更是國軍神聖的任務。"],["陳委員雪生：我們也是保衛，你以為國軍很厲害？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以國軍必須接受到基本的訓練來提升他守護的能力，這個是必要的，至於這個過程當中，長年來的問題，我想顧部長會很積極的去想一個方式跟委員再討論……"],["陳委員雪生：不是，行政院主計長也在場嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如何能夠也符合國軍基本的訓練，地方也能夠大家不再有這麼大的反彈。"],["陳委員雪生：主計長在場，財政部長也在場，可以處理的啊！國防部一團死水在那邊一直給我拖、一直拖，馬祖防衛部跟我講等中山國中蓋好，中山國中現在沒有人標，馬祖工程沒有人標，臺灣搶標搶得要死啊！馬祖縣長要一個一個去拜託，為什麼呢？缺工、缺料、工材上漲，而且海象不好，充滿了變數；逾期，罰款罰得非常重，沒有人標工程，都是用拜託的。所以院長、部長，拜託！靶場的事情，12月底為止，請馬祖防衛指揮部移地訓練，可以不可以？你後面慢慢規劃，我沒有意見，你後面規劃個10年，我都沒意見。"],["顧部長立雄：馬防部，就我了解，9月18日已經發函給連江縣政府了，我們還是希望連江縣政府能夠儘速確認遷建的新址、用地的範圍……"],["陳委員雪生：縣政府哪來的10億、5億啊？院長，你很清楚吧！小小一個連江縣政府哪有5億、10億的錢啊！怎麼可能？我們5,000萬都拿不出來啊！你叫我拿五億喔？而且這是清朝的時候蓋的靶場嘛！你現在是民國的官，還在想清朝的事喔？怎麼可能！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，是不是顧部長跟委員，乃至於跟縣政府，我們談一下有沒有新的地方確定可以去……"],["陳委員雪生：談過很多次了，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：確定新的地方之後，我們再來想這個後續該怎麼進行。"],["陳委員雪生：我覺得部長要跟主計長、財政部部長去談這個事情，因為他們有內規，他們的規定是代拆代建，而且是建好以後，你要先建好，先建後拆，除了代拆代建，還先建後拆，這個很煩！所以我跟院長、部長報告，元月份你不要怪我不客氣，我發動全民抗爭，誰在裡面打靶……"],["卓院長榮泰：拜託委員再給我們一點時間，不要說你剛剛說的代拆代建或是先建後拆，就是邊建邊拆，到年底也不可能完成，我們還是再想一個方法。"],["陳委員雪生：不可能完成的啦！不可能完成的，它去發包，我評估它去發包都發包不出去。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我們大家談一個適合的時間、方式、地點，我們請部長跟委員積極溝通。"],["陳委員雪生：院長，我覺得你們這個承諾不算數，我上一次質詢，前面質詢7年了耶！到現在原地踏步、原封不動，老百姓在罵立委，我說你去找縣政府嘛！那縣政府說我們公文上去到國防部，根本不理我們啊！是不是？那我沒辦法啦！他們又找到立委，什麼東西都是立委，是不是？你叫我怎麼辦？我手上也沒有尚方寶劍，我手上也沒有武器，部長，幫忙解決這個問題，我雖然狠話講在前面，但是你們真的要好好去思考一下，國防部連想都不去想這個事情，有這樣的事喔！我不會跟你們妥協這件事喔！我不會跟你妥協喔！"],["顧部長立雄：我們還是希望能夠不影響戰備演訓的前提之下來進行，那靶場的設置對我們的戰備訓練是有必要的。"],["陳委員雪生：你看這圖片上有，它預定做在這裡，這個山坡怎麼挖啊？這還要環評耶！當然它不是一公頃以上，一公頃以上要環評，你這怎麼做啊？9億啊！"],["顧部長立雄：這個多次……"],["陳委員雪生：你500個人去做個9億的靶場，我以前在中山分局服務，中山分局還不只500個人耶！你去問他靶場有多大，他也是跑到翠山上面去打啊！不然要跑去哪裡打？移地嘛！坐個船到南竿去打嘛！要那麼大的空間來做一個靶場幹什麼呢？浪費！真的是浪費！人家說浪費比貪污還可怕，這個就是叫浪費，你知道嗎？500個人，還會少！我聽報紙講金門、馬祖還要再撤兵，部隊還要再撤，你還要再撤，到時候兵會更少，所以部長你好好思考一下這個問題，好不好？","部長，我想不浪費時間，你請回，好不好？我剩下的時間還要問一下國產署……"],["卓院長榮泰：財政部。"],["陳委員雪生：國產署是財政部。"],["主席：麻煩請財政部莊部長備詢。"],["陳委員雪生：還有……部長你再留步一下，好不好？部長，對不起喔！顧部長，因為這裡面牽扯到軍備局。"],["主席：再請國防部顧部長備詢。"],["陳委員雪生：院長，你知道國防部軍備局跟財政部的國產署占領我們馬祖的土地，占比是多少你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：馬祖國有的土地是比較多。"],["陳委員雪生：整個馬祖的土地。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。跟委員報告，在馬祖地區已經登記的有兩千五百多公頃，那國有的部分事實上占了88%，所以國有的部分，包含國防部，也包含國產署經管的……"],["陳委員雪生：88%。"],["莊部長翠雲：大概占了八成，對。"],["陳委員雪生：院長，你聽到了沒有？國產署、軍備局占領我們全馬祖88%的土地，院長，你如果是連江縣縣長，你對這個縣準備怎麼規劃？我們只有12%的土地在玩喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，委員一定清楚，這一定是有它的歷史的因素，沿革到現在。"],["陳委員雪生：歷史，你講到歷史更好，戰地任務以前是阿兵哥，阿兵哥以前根本都沒有人管的那個地方啊！我們跟大陸那邊的魚換來換去，交易啊！那個袁大頭換來換去都沒事的啊！現在管的可緊了，金門發生牛疫，馬祖這邊豬肉也管制，我們養一隻土雞生幾個雞蛋，出來還要經過檢查耶！我們已經是次等公民了、已經是次等公民了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是，委員……"],["陳委員雪生：你說為了國人的安全，我請問馬祖人是不是國人？金門人是不是國人？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，包括馬祖在內，所有離島都是中華民國的領土，我們對於所有上面的居民、國人都一樣的當作一家人在看待。這個領土，我們更要維持它的安全，所以我也希望大家在這種共同的國家基本認識底下，我們來做更多的溝通跟協調。"],["陳委員雪生：現在國產署，我還是罵它，真的比強盜土匪還兇悍，金門的那個主任我還沒找他來……"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，土地的情況您也很清楚，第一個，在辦理總登記的時候，民眾如果認為是私有的，他可以申請登記……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，你如果有空的話，我去拜訪你好了，好不好？到時候我去拜訪你……"],["莊部長翠雲：我來拜會委員。"],["陳委員雪生：請你接見我一下，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：我來拜會委員。"],["陳委員雪生：請你接見我一下，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：時間可以的話，我就來拜訪委員。"],["陳委員雪生：因為時間的關係，好不好？部長，軍備局最近有表現比較好一點，國產署是表現得很兇悍，軍備局有比較好一點，我以前總質詢一上台，就是請軍備局局長跟國產署署長下台，為什麼？他們做了一些很糟糕的事情。那麼兩位請回。","另外請教院長，今天衛福部邱部長有沒有來？"],["主席：請邱部長備詢。"],["陳委員雪生：我在選舉期間執政黨地方黨部一直要求，馬祖的縣立醫院應該改為部立醫院。我今天是很慎重的，我今天是很慎重地跟院長報告這個事情，您覺得縣立醫院改為部立醫院如何？有可能嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：就我所知，先前的連江縣政府好像有不大一樣的評估報告，認為還是維持……"],["陳委員雪生：不是把縣立醫院改為部立醫院就好了，這裡還有1公頃的土地，你要擴充面積嘛！心臟內科、心臟外科、神經內科、神經外科、麻醉科很多科都要的咧！這些醫生從哪裡來？它的人員配比、人員配置從哪裡來？金門現在還在後送。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，雖然之前地方政府好像有不同的見解，但是我認為衛福部所轄所有能夠提升離島地區醫療服務水準的工作，我們都不會放掉，我們都會列為重點在做，我想衛福部也已經有相當多的進展。"],["陳委員雪生：不是換湯、換藥啊，你瞭解沒有？部長我們下次再談好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員雪生：院長，謝謝你。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下我們請登記第23號吳春城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-09-27"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137601_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-09-27","影片長度":"00:16:29","end_time":"2024-09-27T10:45:23+08:00","type":"Clip"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妮還有請交易部政部長麻煩請交易部政部長備詢院長早蔡媛妮好院長我在媒體上看到"},{"start":50.103,"end":50.323,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":68.086,"end":68.306,"text":"所以時間約了嗎?"},{"start":68.306,"end":68.326,"text":"時間約了嗎?"},{"start":91.187,"end":92.668,"text":"總預算是萬事的根本各個社福團體"},{"start":113.752,"end":139.724,"text":"各個社會各界我們各部會重要用在人民身上國家建設上面的預算這個不能開玩笑但行政院先展現誠意卓院長展現誠意韓院長展現能力民主國家就是要協商民主國家沒有辦法不協商很多政策要推動這很困難所以執政黨展現誠意韓院長展現能力"},{"start":140.464,"end":141.925,"text":"謝謝韓院長 也請委員能夠大力的協助第二個事情我想謝謝院長 部長"},{"start":167.895,"end":189.307,"text":"針對今年年底就11月馬上要舉行在臺灣的一個棒球界的盛事就是12強的比賽那謝謝教育部在經費來支持院長也指示要全力來協助這個棒球運動的發展在這裡我代表另外一個身份就是職棒的會長來謝謝行政院"},{"start":191.325,"end":219.484,"text":"我待會也準備了一件衣服要送給院長因為12強的球衣還在製作還沒有辦法製作完成所以我先送給院長是今年明星賽臺灣隊的球衣待會我來送給院長我也要跟院長拜託也代表很多的球迷特別是中南部的球迷要來拜託行政院大巨蛋落成啟用之後效益非常的高"},{"start":220.117,"end":220.217,"text":"蔡其昌議員"},{"start":242.446,"end":270.626,"text":"但是這一年來的數據來顯示並不會有這樣的現象那中南部天氣炎熱事實上對於很多的活動的舉辦甚至下雨的問題這個對很多的市民朋友在欣賞這個休閒娛樂事業的表演或者是職業運動的表演其實都產生很大的困擾所以本席希望這個中南部"},{"start":271.707,"end":293.962,"text":"需要另外一顆巨蛋所以中南部需要一個蛋院長你的看法怎麼樣因為委員來自台中對中部來自中南部的重視我們當然理解我個人的想法是生蛋不易養蛋更難他除了在選擇地點以及安全的考量"},{"start":295.128,"end":299.391,"text":"如果我的意思說很簡單地方政府支持而且也願意有球團他願意來做這個投資那行政院的態度是贊成或反對"},{"start":320.387,"end":346.925,"text":"這是基本的要件有球團願意當他的這個母廠地方政府就要從地點的提供選擇安全的設置等等要來做全面的規劃這兩個地點提供這兩個地點都成熟情況底下行政院支不支持如果地方有這樣的需求那全國我們認為在均衡台灣的理念之下現在台北有大巨蛋小巨蛋"},{"start":347.773,"end":350.215,"text":"我想我們一起來努力啦我只是先問行政院的態度我想台灣真的有機會我們來爭取第二顆蛋"},{"start":377.236,"end":402.258,"text":"第三個部分我們過去一直在期待臺灣其實我們只有在臺中的海線只有一個所謂室外的333尺的自行車競賽符合標準的場地我們一直欠缺奧運市井賽現在所謂自由車賽道距離是250公尺的"},{"start":402.881,"end":423.232,"text":"所以我過去一直在爭取這個事情那教育部的體育署現在也在規劃要找到包括南部也在爭取 台中也在爭取那不知道院長知不知道這個計畫我知道教育部有一個優化全民運動與賽事會的環境的計畫那是不是請部長來說明一下計畫內容"},{"start":428.544,"end":444.835,"text":"謝謝委員關心台灣N的體育發展特別在自由車裡邊確實我們體育部是有優化全民運動跟賽會環境計畫也編列了6億元的經費部長這個我知道我的意思是說這個計畫"},{"start":446.889,"end":449.431,"text":"本席一直在爭取台中清水這個地方"},{"start":477.669,"end":478.89,"text":"對對對部長要特別注意一下這個事情齁"},{"start":497.475,"end":510.403,"text":"好,謝謝委員,我們體育署跟臺中市政府有一個計畫在進行,我就要請教一部,未來這個計畫的進度,或者達到一樣的一個建展的時候,要跟委員一起來參與,要邀請委員一起來參與,討論,以及它整個建構的過程,謝謝委員"},{"start":514.866,"end":542.625,"text":"時間的關係陳部長也上來了我想本席在乎的三件事情第一個捷運局限一定要延伸到清水這個差三公里沒有道理不到清水街上這個是本席一再強調的台中市理部長的時代也跟市政府溝通了本席希望市政府說留一個尾巴不是表示要延伸到清水本席希望的是可言中央已經通過"},{"start":543.766,"end":564.083,"text":"交通部你們負責本席爭取 過去李部長也答應本席剩下3公里的可言 那個大概1000萬左右的可言預算那個交通部來補助台中市政府 那就看市長做不做這個可言可以延續李部長的想法"},{"start":566.099,"end":584.543,"text":"報告委員這個部分因為你的指示那當然之前臺中市的捷運只有到清水的山上到機場那邊而已那只差三公里沒有到市區確實是很可惜所以在10月2號我們也交通部會邀集這個臺中市政府大家來研商說後面這一段的延伸的可言"},{"start":585.123,"end":614.066,"text":"但是因為主管單位是地方政府要由他們來提出來那只要他們願意提出來這個可言後面的這一段交通部在經費上會來協助所以本席爭取這個預算給台中市政府如果台中市政府再不做的話這個就太可惡了這個部分要由台中市政府來主動提出對當然那我就講我先因為李部長實在已經答應了他說一千萬左右的預算中央來支付但市政府要同意下去進行可言所以我們中央都幫他做好了"},{"start":614.426,"end":639.91,"text":"我就等著市政府到底要不要做好不好那另外就是藍線的部分過去陳建忍院長時代也承諾要配合捷運的藍線最後一站那個港務大樓要整體做興建這個事情我也希望陳部長跟院長都知道然後要督促港務公司到底他的進程到底是什麼時間要趕快列出來給本席"},{"start":640.776,"end":641.096,"text":"海線鐵路的雙軌化"},{"start":670.936,"end":673.518,"text":"我希望行政院出面可以來解決現在人民苦不堪言我解釋給院長聽"},{"start":695.909,"end":722.055,"text":"這個A先生他匯錯款A先生匯款匯不到人匯錯款匯給B匯錯款匯給B所以呢A先生就只能跟A銀行講說不好意思我匯不到匯錯款了那這時候A銀行如果匯款的B是同一個銀行所以銀行就會通知B說有人匯錯款給你請你把錢匯出來"},{"start":724.578,"end":743.772,"text":"這個B現在我們交房詐打詐叫你接到電話說它是什麼銀行要你匯款這個都是詐騙我們在問題參政就是這樣搞嘛大家就是被詐騙嘛所以呢這個銀行要通知B的時候這個是無效的電話不會有人相信啦"},{"start":745.063,"end":755.638,"text":"不然呢那第二個方式呢就是如果匯款的B這個受匯人阿他是在B銀行那就要A銀行通知B銀行再叫B銀行通知B"},{"start":757.008,"end":782.778,"text":"各位知道意思啦齁所以呢這裡面阿這個過程裡面通常B都是不會理會的因為B認為這個都是詐騙標準嘛說他是銀行的行員要我匯款齁這個符合詐騙的原則所以他是絕對不會理會這種電話好那不會理會電話A匯款錯誤的人怎麼辦A匯款錯誤他很簡單他只有兩個方法一個告民事一個告刑事阿因為告民事"},{"start":783.814,"end":785.815,"text":"因為要受理所以我們的檢察署也要起訴"},{"start":809.977,"end":833.699,"text":"因為這是假侵占他為什麼他要逼阿就是他要讓A為了逼出來把他的錢還給他所以他只好A只好這樣做所以你看這樣的一個事件不但擾民增加了我們地檢署的負擔增加了我們警察同仁的負擔所以阿現在的方式銀行說他也沒辦法"},{"start":834.192,"end":862.78,"text":"那可不可以把B的資料直接告訴A不行因為這是個資這是個資啦所以也沒辦法讓他們兩個自行解決也不行好啦所以我們就不斷的有很多的案子你看那個主委你去問一下銀行啦銀行告訴我說你們金管會告訴我說沒這個資料啦到底像這種案子銀行有打電話通知那個會錯的一年有多少通電話你就可以知道這個案子有多少"},{"start":864.073,"end":885.892,"text":"那你就要逼這個A逼得人家就要去告阿又浪費資源然後呢這個匯錯那一個人他覺得很無辜阿他忽然接到檢察官要調他法院檢察官要起訴他他無辜的一塌糊塗他也不知道他坐在家裡只是有一個人匯款匯錯給他天阿他要上法院欸"},{"start":888.305,"end":895.604,"text":"所以B怨聲載道他坐在家裡沒事他也不是錢是他自己別人匯進來的所以本席真的覺得這種"},{"start":898.065,"end":918.199,"text":"這種是擾民到了極點也讓我們行政成本付出那麼多金管會應該出面把銀行找過來你就直接跟匯錯款的人收錢因為你自己匯錯款所以我銀行出面幫你解決然後你付費給銀行你也不要說銀行做白工因為匯錯款要付出代價"},{"start":920.941,"end":945.68,"text":"我覺得這個狀況應該沒有涉及到詐騙而且他假設會錯整個軌跡會非常明顯我想這部分我們回去趕快來找銀行公會還有就請我們同仁趕快來把這案子來做一個看看怎麼來解決確實剛剛這個部分可能只是一個錯誤的話他沒有任何詐騙嘛但是問題對於街道對B這個坐在家裡帳號忽然多一筆錢的人來講"},{"start":946.54,"end":951.732,"text":"他根本也沒有去管他的帳號多一筆錢可是他接到銀行告訴他說你有錢匯錯你要把錢匯回來"},{"start":987.366,"end":987.386,"text":"好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:28:54 - 10:45:23","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"154918","gazette":{"lineno":526,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時29分）謝謝主席，麻煩主席請行政院院長、交通部陳部長、教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢，請交通部部長備詢，請教育部鄭部長備詢。"],["蔡委員其昌：院長早。"],["卓院長榮泰：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：院長，我在媒體上看到您要來拜會立法院韓院長，針對預算的問題，希望兩個院長能夠進行協商，院長，有這個事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，在徵得韓院長同意，我們剛剛在休息時間已經喝過一杯很溫暖的咖啡，也談了一些相關事情。我想韓院長跟我對於未來國家應該發展的方向，以及應該採取什麼樣的方式，我們的基本理念是相同的。"],["蔡委員其昌：時間約了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛已經喝過咖啡了。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以可以進行協調了？可以協商？要再約時間見面嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們彼此都要進行很多努力，我要跟我們的部會首長表現出我們的誠意……"],["蔡委員其昌：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也拜託韓院長跟大院的委員，能以如何推動國家政務為首要，我們一起來努力。"],["蔡委員其昌：總預算是萬事的根本，是各社福團體、社會各界、各部會用在人民身上與國家建設上的重要預算，不能開玩笑。所以行政院先展現誠意，卓院長展現誠意，韓院長展現能力，畢竟民主國家就是要協商，民主國家沒有辦法不協商，否則很多政策要推動會很困難。所以執政黨展現誠意，韓院長展現能力，我想這才是國家之福。我樂見兩位喝咖啡，也希望多多溝通，讓人民所期待的總預算、地方政府所等待的補助款能順利在立法院進行審查。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝韓院長，也請委員能夠大力協助。"],["蔡委員其昌：第二件事，先謝謝院長、部長，今年年底即11月馬上要舉行臺灣棒球界的盛事，也就是12強比賽，謝謝教育部在經費上的支持，院長也指示全力協助棒球運動的發展。在這裡，我以另外一個身分，就是職棒會長來謝謝行政院。我準備了一件衣服要送給院長，因為12強的球衣還在製作，還沒有辦法完成，所以我先送給院長今年明星賽臺灣隊的球衣，待會我送給院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：我也要跟院長拜託，也代表很多球迷，特別是中南部的球迷來拜託行政院。大巨蛋落成啟用之後效益非常高，無論是棒球比賽，或明年要逐漸展開除了棒球運動以外的休閒娛樂表演，會讓大巨蛋的檔期從明年開始會顯得很滿。過去我們擔憂蓋了一顆大巨蛋會不會產生經濟效益？會不會變成蚊子館？但這一年來的數據顯示，並不會有這樣的現象！中南部天氣炎熱，很多活動的舉辦，乃至下雨問題，對很多市民朋友在欣賞休閒娛樂事業的表演，或職業運動的表演，其實產生很大的困擾。本席希望中南部需要另外一顆巨蛋，中南部需要一個蛋！院長，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員來自臺中，對中部、乃至中南部的重視我們當然理解。我個人的想法是生蛋不易，養蛋更難！除了選擇地點、安全考量、設備功能，以及將來能夠有什麼樣的活動都要做長遠規劃之外，我認為還要有一個專業的團隊能夠來經營。我想萬事俱備之後，我們才來討論這個可行性。"],["蔡委員其昌：院長，我的意思很簡單，如果地方政府支持，而且球團也願意做投資，那麼行政院的態度是贊成或反對？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是基本要件，有球團願意當作母場……"],["蔡委員其昌：這是一定的，我是說在這兩個前提之下……"],["卓院長榮泰：地方政府要從地點的提供選擇，安全設置等等來做全面的規劃。"],["蔡委員其昌：在這兩個前提都成熟的情況底下，行政院支不支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果地方有這樣的需求，在全國我們認為在均衡臺灣發展的理念下，現在臺北有大巨蛋、小巨蛋，高雄也有小巨蛋，臺南好像也有一個計畫，中部如果有這樣全國的規劃，也有地方提出的需求，我覺得這個是展現地方跟中央能不能充分討論事情的一個點。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以院長其實是樂觀其成啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：有地方的發展，我們當然是很樂意。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果條件成熟，院長是支持的？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我想我們一起來努力啦，我只是先問行政院的態度，我想臺灣真的有機會，我們來爭取第二顆蛋。","第三個部分，過去我們一直在期待，臺灣其實只有在臺中的海線有一個所謂室外333公尺的自行車競賽符合標準的場地，我們一直欠缺奧運、世錦賽現在自由車賽道距離250公尺的場地，我過去一直在爭取這件事情，教育部體育署現在也在規劃要找到，包括南部也在爭取，臺中也在爭取，不知道院長知不知道這個計畫？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道教育部有一個優化全民運動與賽會環境的計畫，是不是請部長來說明一下計畫內容？"],["蔡委員其昌：好，部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心臺灣的體育發展，特別在自由車裡面，確實我們體育署是有優化全民運動跟賽會環境計畫，也編列有6億元的經費。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，這個我知道，我的意思是說，這個計畫本席過去一直在爭取臺中清水這個地方，部長知道這個計畫嘛？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我只是要提醒你，本席很在意這個事情啦，因為你是剛上任的部長，你也沒有來……"],["鄭部長英耀：有，跟委員報告，我們……"],["蔡委員其昌：我不知道你知不知道，所以我今天特別利用總質詢讓你知道，我們希望清水這個地方能有250公尺賽道的場地，因為我們海線的聚落完整，腳踏車的產業，原來333公尺的自行車場現在如果加進一個室內而且是多功能的……"],["鄭部長英耀：是要有一個標準的、符合國際運動賽會的場地。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，就是有一個室內場地，然後中間可以讓市民做運動，而上面就是自行車的跑道，這個本席已經講很久了啦，希望部長要特別關注一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，所以我們體育署也請專家去看過，也會……"],["蔡委員其昌：部長要特別注意一下這個事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，體育署和臺中市府有一個計畫在進行……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請教育部在未來這個計畫進度或者達到一定進展的時候，要邀請委員一起來參與、討論，以及它整個建構的過程。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：時間的關係，陳部長也上來了，本席在乎的三件事情，第一個，捷運橘線一定要延伸到清水，這個差3公里，沒有道理不到清水街上，這個是本席一再強調的。在李部長時代也跟市政府溝通了，市政府說留一個尾巴啦，但留一個尾巴不是表示要延伸到清水……"],["陳部長世凱：是，留尾軌。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席希望的是，可研中央已經通過，交通部你們負責，本席爭取，過去李部長也答應本席，剩下3公里的可研，那個大概1,000萬左右的可研預算，交通部來補助臺中市政府，就看市長做不做這個可研。部長，可以延續李部長的想法嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分因為你的指示，當然之前臺中市的捷運只有到清水的山上，到機場那邊而已，只差3公里沒有到市區確實是很可惜，所以10月2號交通部會邀集臺中市政府大家來研商後面這一段延伸的可研，但是因為主管單位是地方政府，要由他們來提出……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒錯！"],["陳部長世凱：只要他們願意提出來這個可研，後面的這段交通部在經費上會來協助。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，所以本席爭取預算給臺中市政府，如果臺中市政府再不做的話，這個就太可惡了！"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分要由臺中市府來主動提出。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，當然。因為李部長時代已經答應了嘛，他說1,000萬左右的預算中央來支付……"],["陳部長世凱：對，中央會協助，沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：但市政府要同意下去進行可研，所以中央都幫它做好了，我就等著看市政府到底要不要做，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：另外就是藍線部分，過去陳建仁院長時代也承諾要配合捷運藍線最後一站，港務大樓要整體做興建，這個事情我也希望陳部長跟院長都知道，然後要督促港務公司，到底它的進程是什麼，要趕快把時間列出來給本席。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前正在可研的階段……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我知道！"],["陳部長世凱：這部分也會匯集委員辦公室的一些意見進來這個問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒問題，我們在交通委員會可以再討論，我只是提醒，因為院長也剛上任嘛！","第三個就是海線鐵路的雙軌化……"],["陳部長世凱：對，雙軌高架。"],["蔡委員其昌：當然這裡面也涉及到市政府，但我目標還是沒有改變，希望在賴總統這一任任內，也就是未來的4年內，一定要讓它動工，好不好？這個是過去本席一直在強調的……"],["陳部長世凱：雙軌化的部分在這個任期內應該沒有問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，只是因為兩位都新上任，我還沒有提過這個，特別在今天的總質詢時間……"],["陳部長世凱：它的綜合規劃會在115年完成。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我是特別再交代一下。","另外，有個事情我也要請法務部部長跟金管會主委都上來。"],["主席：我們請法務部長備詢，也麻煩請金管會備詢。"],["蔡委員其昌：院長，我大概跟你解釋一下，我希望行政院可以出面解決。現在人民苦不堪言啦，我解釋給院長聽。","A先生匯錯款，也就是A先生匯款時匯錯人，匯錯款給B，於是A先生只能跟A銀行表示抱歉，說自己匯錯款了，這時候如果收到匯款的B與A是同一個銀行，那麼銀行就會通知B說有人匯錯款給你，請你把錢匯出來。對於B來說，現在我們教防詐、打詐都是教你在接到電話時，如果是什麼銀行要你匯款，這個都是詐騙，我們在鄉村都是這樣教的，不然大家就都會被詐騙，所以這個A銀行要通知B的時候，這個會變成是無效電話，不會有人相信啦！","第二個方式，如果B的這個受匯人是在B銀行，那麼就要A銀行通知B銀行，再由B銀行通知B，各位知道意思啦，所以在這個過程裡面，通常B都是不會理會的，因為B認為這個都是詐騙，標準嘛，說自己是銀行行員，要我匯款，這個符合詐騙原則，所以他是絕對不會理會這種電話。","那麼匯款錯誤的A要怎麼辦？很簡單，他只有兩個方法，一個告民事，一個告刑事，因為告民事要請律師，很麻煩，告刑事比較快，所以他就到警察局直接告侵占，警察就要受理，因為這個是公訴罪，警察就要受理。警察局為了受理這種假侵占，他要接多少案子！再來，因為受理，所以我們的檢察署也要起訴，其實這是假侵占，為什麼？因為這是A為了把B逼出來還錢，所以A只好這樣做。","你看，這樣的事件不但擾民，還增加了地檢署的負擔，也增加了警察同仁的負擔。所以現在的方式銀行說它也沒辦法，可不可以把B的資料直接告訴A？不行，因為這是個資，所以也沒辦法讓他們兩個自行解決，也不行。好了，所以我們就不斷有很多這樣的案子。主委，你去問一下銀行啦，你們金管會告訴我說沒這個資料，像這種案子，銀行有打電話通知匯款錯誤的一年有多少通電話，你就可以知道這樣的案子有多少。現在的情況就是逼著A只能去告B，浪費資源，然後被匯錯款的那個人覺得自己很無辜，他忽然接到檢察官說要起訴他，他無辜得一蹋糊塗！他坐在家裡，只是有人匯錯款給他，天啊！他要上法院耶！所以B怨聲載道，他坐在家裡沒事，錢是別人自己匯進來的啊！所以本席真的覺得這種是擾民到了極點，也讓我們的行政成本付出這麼多，金管會應該出面把銀行找過來，請他們直接跟匯錯款的人收錢嘛，因為他自己匯錯款，銀行出面幫他解決，然後他付費給銀行，也不要說叫銀行做白工啊，因為匯錯款的人要付出代價啊！主委，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該有辦法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我覺得這個狀況應該沒涉及到詐騙，假設是匯錯，這整個軌跡會非常明顯，我想這部分我們回去趕快找銀行公會，請我們同仁趕快看看這種案子怎麼解決，確實，剛才這個部分只是錯誤的話，我想軌跡很清楚……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，他沒有任何詐騙嘛！但問題是對於B這位坐在家裡然後帳戶忽然多一筆錢的人來講，他根本也沒有去管他的帳戶多一筆錢，但是他接到銀行告訴他有人匯錯錢，要他把錢匯回來，他一聽就知道是詐騙嘛，可是它是真的，它不是詐騙，但是他不做這個匯款動作，因為他不做，所以A就只好去告B侵占，所以這個不是很擾民的事情，希望趕快來解決，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：金管會要趕快跟銀行單位擬定一個處理的標準出來。"],["蔡委員其昌：趕快來解決啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，我也幫你們檢察署說說話，這種案子我調查過，大概一年20%都是所謂的假性侵占，侵占的案件中有20%的案件是假性侵占。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡其昌委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第22號陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-09-27"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137601_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-09-27","影片長度":"00:03:31","end_time":"2024-09-27T09:17:31+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154917","委員名稱":"林國成","duration":211,"start_time":"2024-09-27T09:14:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7581ac2c059480527a192a78d059cb93b4afc9d995ccd4a27db176d5ecd693bddff2cd48d5fb68765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.293468750000002,"end":21.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.59284375,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.22971875,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.11096875,"end":29.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.882843750000003,"end":31.469093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.58284375,"end":33.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.84846875,"end":34.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.822843750000004,"end":38.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.704093750000006,"end":40.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.68284375,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.12971875,"end":44.260343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.23909375,"end":47.736593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.35659375,"end":50.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.84159375,"end":51.533468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.157843750000005,"end":53.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.59221875,"end":56.055968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.393468750000004,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.869718750000004,"end":61.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.70909375,"end":67.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.91471875,"end":69.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.07909375,"end":72.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.16721875,"end":73.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.90534375,"end":75.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.69409375000001,"end":81.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.43596875,"end":82.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.61284375000001,"end":84.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.79409375,"end":89.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.24471875,"end":92.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.02909375,"end":93.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.49721875,"end":95.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.38721875,"end":97.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.51784375000001,"end":98.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.18846875000001,"end":100.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.90971875000001,"end":102.34409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.61409375000001,"end":108.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.89159375000001,"end":110.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.88284375,"end":111.84471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.28346875000001,"end":115.48971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.65846875000001,"end":116.48534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.05909375,"end":125.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.23909375000001,"end":152.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.17596875,"end":153.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.74534375000002,"end":155.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.61846875,"end":156.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.08659375000002,"end":157.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.47034375,"end":161.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.28409375,"end":166.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.24971875,"end":167.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.46471875,"end":179.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.42909375000002,"end":202.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.02034375000002,"end":203.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.15096875,"end":206.56409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":21.331,"end":28.334,"text":"主席各位官員各位我們全國的同胞大家早安我在這裡"},{"start":29.946,"end":58.782,"text":"代表臺灣民眾黨警告我們賴總統停止立社獨裁再一次警告我們賴皇帝停止立社獨裁一個總統應該是要有厭忌調停之功能可是萬萬沒有想到"},{"start":60.332,"end":82.42,"text":"為了一個執政黨為依法編列法律的遺漏的編列沒有想到他來下禁令狀各位總統是要調停厭忌紛爭的責任可是沒有想到"},{"start":83.946,"end":91.832,"text":"變成賴皇帝去做這些禁令狀的下令但是在這裡我要告訴賴總統其實"},{"start":96.448,"end":116.196,"text":"左院長行政團隊做得還不錯請你不要把你的手伸進國會製造國會的混亂所以我在這裡要呼籲賴總統你不要做皇帝的心態要把"},{"start":117.156,"end":140.103,"text":"五前憲華千萬不要毀憲亂政的做法台灣是一個民主國家台灣是一個非常自由的國家請你在做總統的時候要有厭忌分明該你管的你管不該你管的不要管所以不要自己"},{"start":140.683,"end":161.526,"text":"成為總統不像總統變成是皇帝制這樣的話對台灣民主是沒有幫助的所以我在這裡我還要呼籲奉勸我們賴總統奉勸我們賴皇帝放下屠刀立地成活"},{"start":162.387,"end":189.514,"text":"放下你手中干預國會的自製徒刀請你為台灣百姓來造福百姓的甘霖所以再一次呼籲我們賴總統不要做皇帝賴總統你千萬不要做皇帝的事情一定要有一個民主國家總統的高度這樣"},{"start":191.835,"end":204.644,"text":"臺灣人民才會有福祉臺灣的民主才會有希望所以賴總統不要成為賴皇帝所以在這裡請求我們賴總統賴皇帝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:14:00 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第一個是民力的訓練 第二個是戰略物資還有維生配送 第三個是能源以及關鍵的基礎建設 第四個是衛福醫療以及避難設施 第五個是資通還有運輸以及金融網路安全"},{"start":48.632,"end":73.67,"text":"我相信保家衛國全民有責過去不論是發生任何天災我們台灣人都是團結一心攜手動怒難關但是近年來政府疏於改善醫護的環境造成諸多的紛爭和問題身為醫事人員代表的我必須很嚴肅的說如果未來發生大規模的天災或是不幸出現了戰爭"},{"start":75.111,"end":89.49,"text":"在這五大主軸中的社福醫療還有維生系統整備這個領域恐怕會成為最大的國安破口根據衛福部的資料全國醫院平均護理人員空缺率"},{"start":90.271,"end":113.594,"text":"自108年度的4.5% 逼增到112年度的9.1% 空缺率是直接翻倍啊人力短缺的問題 源自於政府不願意投入更多的醫療支出而造成的後果 就是許許多多的醫護人員用腳投票就出走了"},{"start":114.395,"end":136.01,"text":"沒有護理師照顧的病床就只是一張沒有用的床關病床的新聞層出不窮前天健保會開會開了12個小時仍無法具體的定出如何為我們護理人員加薪的方案這幾個月來在醫院也有很多的鬼故事"},{"start":136.81,"end":137.391,"text":"施政委員：陳菁徽"},{"start":153.028,"end":169.014,"text":"導致各級醫療院所哀鴻遍野洗腎的病患求助無門有些手術是被迫延期後來只能用高於市價的3倍來緊急補貨專案進口到最近我問了許許多多的醫生同事們"},{"start":170.094,"end":170.294,"text":"前幾天這個委員會"},{"start":202.227,"end":202.671,"text":"謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:10:34 - 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罰一萬零八百元可是如果你是用真車牌去嚴重超速你可能會被罰到三萬六甚至是會被扣牌所以在這樣的狀況下我們呼籲交通部警政署的這個查緝的力道要加強那相關預算我們都會支持還有相關的這個提高這樣的罰則我們也會努力"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:03:39 - 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丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁"},{"start":252.433,"end":253.013,"text":"發言委員：丁學忠"},{"start":274.309,"end":279.311,"text":"因為我們沿海地區地層比較下陷﹖學校都受益比較高的時代﹖都已經低落靠路面﹖所以"},{"start":303.081,"end":303.762,"text":"丁學忠議員"},{"start":321.843,"end":323.925,"text":"我了解委員的用心,苦業是個地罪,我們要做"},{"start":339.423,"end":340.444,"text":"學校內的學校內的學校內的學校內"},{"start":369.603,"end":370.063,"text":"現在再來再講就是"},{"start":400.097,"end":400.117,"text":"國土計畫"},{"start":423.666,"end":424.806,"text":"丁學忠委員．丁學忠"},{"start":446.34,"end":446.52,"text":"我請農業部長"},{"start":467.131,"end":478.511,"text":"都在報的部分 大家有人的執法要修現在已經都送到行政院 已經去做審議了那完了以後就會送到立法院 來這邊做審查"},{"start":481.042,"end":498.57,"text":"已經有代替整個就好了就對了對 因為 裡面 一些像森林法或是其他的法 它相對單純比較重要的是我們的農發條例因為農發條例我們過去用區域計畫下去設計現在改成國土計畫的時候 有一些農業用地的定義跟農業用地的範疇跟農業用地的使用的範圍 這個會做一些適度的修正"},{"start":509.675,"end":522.204,"text":"讓未來因為藝豪國土計劃裡面沒有用地木所以會讓農民能夠有一個轉換的時間我們希望說透過這個國土計劃法這個計劃法如果執行下去可以縮短城鄉發展距離我們希望這樣不要說一樣中國的社區 一樣中國 一樣農後的社區我們一樣繼續農後這樣不是我們要捱的一個精神"},{"start":536.613,"end":537.373,"text":"發言委員：丁學忠"},{"start":556.883,"end":576.191,"text":"未來的農業會用鄉村發展為核心的概念去發展它的多元的這些產業這些產業就能夠跟其他的周遭的都會去做有效的連結這是我們未來的規劃每個地方都有很多的規劃剛才好談這個規劃代替我們地方的市長跟我們部長請教一下我們農一農二實際的策略是在哪裡"},{"start":587.839,"end":609.512,"text":"對農業輸用的時候完全沒有差農醫跟農二是一樣好對農民來說但是因為農醫農二在整個的時候因為它的區域的階級有什麼有些基礎設施投入或者是說它的土地比較集中但是在整個農醫跟農二的時候只有一點外面都沒有在說的就是說"},{"start":613.737,"end":622.676,"text":"國一 農一跟農二分心也可以根據縣市他發展的需求而去做調整不是說"},{"start":623.894,"end":629.435,"text":"我跟委員報告 現在管政府因為他現在公展的部分是現在管政府在規劃嘛規劃的時候有一些原則在規劃不過這裏面包括"},{"start":652.506,"end":654.467,"text":"我們已經說過是不利耕種區的議員：他是維生農醫"},{"start":669.056,"end":692.075,"text":"這是管政副委員：對管政副委員 我知道你會說管政副委員：所以我們都會說 整個管政副委員 要整個多少 都要有一個指導原則 但是因為 地方政府在看的時候 有地方政府的考慮 跟地方政府的發展會有幾個 未來3天以後會不會新增 因為"},{"start":696.187,"end":696.487,"text":"施政委員："},{"start":726.467,"end":734.052,"text":"我跟委員報告這都是外靠最近一些地政室在炒作這個議題就是說變成因為我們農業裡面農地就是要農用所以我跟他說你如果做農用完全沒有影響不過你如果被炒作變土地開發"},{"start":755.845,"end":756.445,"text":"委員：丁學忠"},{"start":775.009,"end":775.329,"text":"委員長丁學忠"},{"start":792.771,"end":814.435,"text":"我向委員報告 過去在農地變更內只有萬分之三所以他本身他現在的制度內他就很怕變形 他變形一定要有條件要有他的合理性 不可替代性對啊 所以這就是 都他有去想到很多的環境不過你後面 你阿邦應該針對鄉村的整體規劃 下去做調整我們也是知道 現在有很多政策"},{"start":822.236,"end":826.037,"text":"我跟委員報告原來的農地裡不管是農一農二你要去農舍"},{"start":848.582,"end":850.525,"text":"現在沒有合法的規定就去處理"},{"start":862.711,"end":882.01,"text":"對阿,所以我希望說,我們把這個執法的精神,我們一定好事之後,公共處理,讓所有的事端,他們了解到我們這個國土計劃法的根本的精神,是正確的,我們要做成就那一個國家,我們在之前在做,"},{"start":885.433,"end":892.175,"text":"委員可以幫你稍作介紹一下嗎我相信沈主席 很多立法委員 代表民意 都非常了解但是有人提出說 這個國土紀委員 要延長2年到4年但是事實上已經延長過了所以表示說 我們可能要有很大的共識要向委員報告說 國土紀委員 跟外人的區域紀委員 是要改造"},{"start":915.523,"end":925.352,"text":"關責該做管理要如何更好的管理我相信委員會最了解第一項就是譬如說以婚姻觀來說婚姻觀未來的發展不是只有農業而已可能有人會針對說鄉村或是農業要如何可以專業可以讓年輕人更好的農業可以發展"},{"start":932.319,"end":940.941,"text":"所以我們是支持剛才農業報告的 他們希望要把鄉村整個部分放進去國土界委裡面所以這對年輕人來說 有起因人第二天剛才你說的 你就不論在土農還是農業還是農二你本來就是農事是合法的 絕對就是合法你本來沒合法的 要怎麼讓它合法 表示說你要有白水謝謝啦你不可以白費水啦"},{"start":957.905,"end":966.369,"text":"這就表示叫做管理,不是要管責事實上我也知道,譬如說我們農業部的很多官員在我們婚姻關係跟人交通的時候有時候政府要用他的說法來講,不然要讓我們農業部的官員做更好的解釋所以我希望說,丁委員﹚不是,議員部長,不是我給你們解釋是怎樣,我們一個根本的執法都沒有出來我們有一個實際的聚人"},{"start":985.359,"end":985.659,"text":"我們的城鄉發展區可以擴大"},{"start":1012.683,"end":1018.188,"text":"對：我們可以說直線好像沒有情：直線這個環節：未來我們林教授如果很高的：若去讓我們發展到這個三年分區：林教授越來越多：還要強調到這個見底："},{"start":1028.459,"end":1031.2,"text":"所以這是希望說我們來進國和農業部我們要積極跟政府跟他們討論這個事項"},{"start":1047.688,"end":1052.632,"text":"要讓人了解這個事項：不是說 他們的事實存在：我們中央設的規定 就是說就相信總統 要維持多少公頃的這個農地：對阿 今天 既然我們當這個公開的政策 你就有說了"},{"start":1067.182,"end":1072.466,"text":"國長你剛才說了﹖講到經濟規定﹖這樣對於我們婦人館﹖來講我們婦人館政府來做衛生﹖這有發動﹖確實增加到我們山陽區的衛生﹖確實可以落實到我們城鄉發展區﹖發展的範圍﹖我可以說﹖因為紐西"},{"start":1093.581,"end":1115.338,"text":"其實政策領域不是只有婦人館的政策領域：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需：若說只有內需："},{"start":1117.684,"end":1128.293,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說因為現在看到就是說婦人館政府還沒送出來所以我們不知道說以農業發展區農業農業到底是最後是怎麼化的所以我們就希望說他們可以提出他的版本的時候我們可以來溝通我顧一下"},{"start":1144.987,"end":1162.101,"text":"臨島的部分,一些土地去化成國保區去,我們覺得比較沒力所以我們去協調,就把它化為農業發展區,這樣的話會比較好所以你的班本,分你的班本上出來以後,我們就可以對這個地方可以好好的去討論去做溝通"},{"start":1164.414,"end":1180.306,"text":"現在是拜託我們部長您比較貴心真的我們分明是常常走路在進行發展的一個風雲當中當然如果真的確實來發展之後真的我們中央也是功夫可賀現在我們都要感謝大家都共同貴賀對著地方發展這是我們單人公室的一個哲理"},{"start":1192.335,"end":1198.602,"text":"所以拜託我們院長﹚拜託我們部長﹚我們兩位部長﹚針對這個國土紀委法﹚我們可以做一個詳細的一個說明﹚還是詳細的一個整個療養﹚跟我們地方管政部﹚我們來做一個詳細的討論﹚委席的範圍﹚委席的風險﹚"},{"start":1212.818,"end":1212.939,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"17:01:50 - 17:22:18","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"154928","gazette":{"lineno":755,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（17時2分）感謝主席，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["丁委員學忠：以及農業部、經濟部還有教育部。"],["主席：麻煩請農業部、經濟部、教育部，請備詢。"],["丁委員學忠：感謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：丁委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：我們上次質詢的時候剛好慢慢進入下半年，那時候就有說到颱風期漸漸要來了，剛好在7月就發生了凱米颱風的災情，我在這裡要感謝院長、感謝各部會，災害發生之後，配合我們地方政府來做重建、搶災的協助，讓我們可以快速恢復正常的生活。這次的天災，農業部也有把部分情況納入農業天然災害救助辦法的免會勘部分，我希望未來如果遇到像這樣的大型天災……這可以說是一個歷史性的天災，可以說差不多兩、三年的雨水一次全倒下來，這次凱米颱風的災害是這樣，整個淹水淹到海堤潰堤，還有一些堤岸都潰堤，造成園子淹水、村子也淹水，我們那裡的養殖區也都淹水。所以未來針對水利溝的整修，我希望經濟部可以全力來協助我們雲林縣政府，在農水溝的部分，也請農業部可以全力來協助，讓我們未來在遇到有大量雨量時，在排水的部分都更加順利，在分流、滯洪的部分更加完善，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一點就是在天然災害的部分，我們農業部一直在持續精進，看有沒有辦法用比較科技的方式，可以早點公告，過去都是地方政府要先看過之後再報到縣政府，縣政府再報來我們農業部，速度太慢了，我們這次是一些人配合一些影像去處理，未來我們對天然災害的方式也會用氣象參數的方式，儘量能夠用氣象參數直接去處理，這樣的話也會省掉鄉公所的一些基層勘災人力。","第二點就是農水溝的部分，並不是遇到颱風再來清，我們農水署本身平時就有在協助清農水溝，過去在水利會時代，平均差不多8天才有辦法處理，現在差不多4天，如果農民有看到，4天之內就可以處理完成，所以這個部分我們也會持續精進。"],["丁委員學忠：現在還有很多農水溝還沒有設置完成。"],["陳部長駿季：對啦，我們會繼續努力。"],["丁委員學忠：這個部分再拜託！在這次的重建工程裡面，水利署還有很多相關部門，例如體育署也是，他們都有第一時間針對我們重建的部分，在地方申報之後他們有馬上去會勘。但是會勘之後我也有過去看一些現場，經過了解，我們很多學校設施都因為淹水造成損壞，學校淹水而造成那些器材損壞。我想要在這裡跟院長拜託一件事情，因為我們發覺現在好像沒有針對校區裡面的治水專案。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為這是區域性的，只有一個校區，治水功能應該不大，這是區域性的治水。"],["丁委員學忠：所以跟院長報告一下，經過我們去視察，因為我們沿海地區地層比較下陷，那些學校年代比較久遠，位置都已經比外面的路面還要低，所以這次颱風來襲，我們明顯發現校區裡面淹水的狀況非常嚴重，因此造成學校裡面很多運動器材及設施損壞。是不是可以拜託院長針對我們校區的治水方案成立一個專案，來協助有需要解決淹水問題的學校？"],["卓院長榮泰：我了解委員的用心，區域性的治水我們要做，而校區裡面應該要在下雨的時候可以快速排水，不要淹水才不會妨害到學校的設備、器材等等，甚至妨害到學生上課，所以它的排水系統應該要很清楚，這點我想教育部應該要做這件事，但區域性的還是我們的重點。"],["丁委員學忠：對，我們可以讓學校裡面跟外面的水利工程結合在一起，讓校區裡面的水可以順利排出。不要在遇到下次災害時，我們一樣還是要做這種重複性的復建工程。對啊，這是可以預防的，我們卻沒做到，結果下一次災害來襲，我們同樣再做這項復建，我覺得那可能會比較耗費我們的經費，希望可以確實解決問題所在，這樣好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["丁委員學忠：再來還有一項就是，我請農業部長留著就好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["丁委員學忠：謝謝，院長，還是你先回去坐一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒關係，我待在這裡……"],["丁委員學忠：你先坐著沒關係。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["丁委員學忠：再請內政部。"],["主席：麻煩請內政部劉部長備詢。"],["丁委員學忠：因為我是壓軸的人，會把時間縮短一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["丁委員學忠：針對國土計畫法，我跟內政部長也有在辦公室裡面稍微討論到，因為國土計畫法在我們地方上都讓長輩們感到恐懼，也傳出一些不同的聲音。既然國土計畫法已經通過10年，配套的子法規劃好了嗎？請農業部長。"],["陳部長駿季：農業部的部分大概有6個子法要修，現在已經都送到行政院去審議了，完了以後就會送到立法院來做審查。"],["丁委員學忠：已經有大概規劃好就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為裡面有一些像森林法或者其他的法，它相對單純，比較重要的是農發條例，因為農發條例我們過去是用區域計畫法下去設計的，現在改成國土計畫的時候，有一些農業用地的定義、農業用地的範疇跟農業用地的使用範圍，這個會做一些適度的修正，讓未來……因為以後國土計畫裡面就沒有使用地目了，所以會讓農民能夠有一個轉換的時間。"],["丁委員學忠：我們希望透過這個國土計畫法……這個計畫法若執行下去，可以縮短城鄉發展距離，我們是希望如此，不要說同樣進步的城市還是一樣進步，同樣落後的城市一樣繼續落後，這不是我們要的精神。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，委員的說法我們完全贊成，我們看農業發展區不是只有看生產而已，因為農業除了生產以外，我們也要用鄉村做為整個發展的軸心，所以現在農業部針對未來的農業規劃會以鄉村發展為核心概念去發展多元的產業，讓這些產業能夠跟周遭其他的都會區做有效的連結，這是我們未來在規劃的。"],["丁委員學忠：因為地方有很多疑問剛好趁這個機會代替我們地方的長輩跟部長請教一下，農一、農二實際的差別是在哪裡？"],["陳部長駿季：在農業使用方面完全沒差，對農民來說，農一跟農二一樣好，但是農一、農二在規劃的時候，因為它過去有投入一些基礎設施，或者是說它的土地比較集中，但是在規劃農一跟農二的時候，還有一點外界都沒有人提到，就是農一跟農二本身也可以根據縣市發展的需求而去調整，不是說百分之……"],["丁委員學忠：所以在這裡要請教部長，我們雲林縣農一、農二加起來八萬七千多公頃，這難道是按照中央希望雲林縣政府編列的甲數嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我跟委員報告，因為公展的部分現在是縣政府在規劃的，規劃的時候有一些原則，不過包括雲林縣政府在開公聽會時，有一些「風頭水尾」、有一些地層下陷或不利耕作區的，後續可以……"],["丁委員學忠：所以我也發現我們已經公告是不利耕作區的，它竟然被劃做農一。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這是縣政府劃的，我跟委員報告……"],["丁委員學忠：對，縣政府，我知道你會說縣政府劃的，所以農業部沒有規定縣政府要規劃多少農一、農二？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有一個指導原則，但是因為地方政府在規劃的時候有地方政府的考慮跟一些發展規劃，未來送來之後會審查……"],["丁委員學忠：因為最近這幾年我們雲林縣政府的積極推動，不管是地方建設還是觀光行銷都做得有夠好，我們也希望雲林縣可以走入農工商科技並進的大縣，不要讓雲林縣只負責全國糧食的安全，所以針對我們這些長輩的疑慮，其實我也沒辦法回答什麼，他們問我農一的農地價值會降得比較低嗎？請問會降得比較低嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這都是外面最近一些地政士在炒作的議題啦！因為在農業裡面，農地就是要農用，所以我剛才說了，他如果做農用就完全沒影響，不過如果被炒作變成土地開發……"],["丁委員學忠：因為我們雲林縣從事農業的人差不多有六成，大多是長輩，比較高齡化，年輕人比較少在務農，如果他們繼續耕作這塊地，做到他們的年齡到了，做不動了，而他們農地被劃作農一，未來他的晚輩在外面學習技能，要回來蓋一個鐵工廠也好，或要蓋一個什麼工廠來繼續生產、繼續從事他們工業方面的工作，是不是因為這個限制就沒辦法了？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，過去在農地變更裡面只有萬分之三，所以它本身在現在的制度裡面就很難變更了，它變更一定要有條件，要有它的合理性、不可替代性……"],["丁委員學忠：對啊！所以這就是農一受到限制的範圍啦！"],["陳部長駿季：不過以後可以針對鄉村的整體規劃下去做調整。"],["丁委員學忠：我們也知道現在有很多村莊過去是特定農業區，不過過去的長輩就想說這塊地就是他自己的地，在他自己的地蓋一間房子自己住，現在劃成農一以後，那間房子要怎麼辦？要拆掉，還是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，原來的農地裡面，不管是農一、農二、若要蓋農舍都要照規矩走，一樣，沒有影響到。"],["丁委員學忠：我說的是沒有合法申請的部分。"],["陳部長駿季：不合法現在就不合法了，不是以後不合法，現在不合法，就照不合法的規定下去處理。"],["丁委員學忠：對啊！所以我希望你們把子法的精神擬訂好以後公告出去，讓所有的長輩了解國土計畫法的根本精神在哪裡，不要造成那麼多誤解，我們在基層走動，搞不好這個政策是好的，我們要替你們說話，卻不知道要從哪裡說起啊！"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我可以跟你稍微解釋一下嗎？"],["丁委員學忠：好。"],["劉部長世芳：我相信現在很多立法委員代表民意，都非常了解，但是有人提出國土計畫法要延長2年到4年，但是事實上已經延長過了，所以表示我們可能還沒有很大的共識。我要跟委員報告，國土計畫法跟原來的區域計畫法是要把管制改成管理，要怎麼比較好地管理？我相信委員非常了解，第一項，譬如以雲林縣來說，雲林縣未來的發展不只是農業而已，可能有人會針對鄉村或是農業要怎麼轉換，讓年輕人、比較好的農業可以發展，所以我們是支持剛才農業部說的，他們希望把鄉村規劃的部分納入國土計畫裡面。"],["丁委員學忠：我們也很希望年輕人可以回來。"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以這對年輕人來說是有吸引力的。第二項就是剛才你說的，無論是特農還是農一還是農二，本來如果農舍是合法的，絕對就是合法；本來不合法的，要怎麼讓它合法？表示說它要有排水設施、不能排廢水，這種就叫做管理，而不是管制。事實上我也知道，譬如農業部的很多官員，在雲林縣跟大家溝通的時候，有時候縣政府要用它的說法來說，不讓農業部的官員做更好的解釋，所以我希望丁委員……"],["丁委員學忠：部長，不是不讓你們解釋，是因為一個根本的子法都沒有出來……"],["劉部長世芳：不是……"],["丁委員學忠：沒有一個實際的劇本啊！"],["劉部長世芳：不是……"],["丁委員學忠：我們要演一齣電影都要有一個劇本……"],["劉部長世芳：我知道……"],["丁委員學忠：對啊！"],["劉部長世芳：但是委員，你剛才有聽到農業部的講法……"],["丁委員學忠：對啊！我們要有一個具體的……"],["劉部長世芳：現在大部分的土地要怎麼劃分，全部都是縣政府有比較大的主導權……"],["丁委員學忠：對。"],["劉部長世芳：我們只有在總額的管制上面不要讓你們超出太多，所以不是要做限制，是要做管理，這樣而已。"],["丁委員學忠：我們是希望怎麼樣呢？我們的城鄉發展區可以來擴大，不能侷限只有目前這個範圍而已……"],["劉部長世芳：這都可以討論。"],["丁委員學忠：侷限在這個範圍，未來我們人口數如果增加呢？如果讓我們發展到產業園區，人口數愈來愈多，剛好減少到這個建地。"],["劉部長世芳：這如果是配合重大建設，譬如國家重大的建設，本來就是可以在國土計畫法裡面，或是其他的法律裡面來開始討論，那個沒有受到限制。"],["丁委員學忠：所以希望內政部跟農業部要積極跟雲林縣政府討論……"],["劉部長世芳：我們會繼續溝通。"],["丁委員學忠：要讓他們了解到這個細項，不是說……他們確實遵照中央的規定，就是在什麼狀況下要劃設多少公頃的農地……"],["劉部長世芳：我們沒有這樣強制規定。"],["丁委員學忠：今天既然在這個公開場所你就有說了，部長就說沒有強制規定，這樣對雲林縣來說，雲林縣政府劃設時有辦法確實增加產業園區的劃設，也確實可以落實到……"],["劉部長世芳：鄉村規劃。"],["丁委員學忠：又確實可以落實到我們城鄉發展區發展的範圍。因為其實種植糧食的不只是雲林縣，如果只要內需，以目前我們全國的種植量，內需就已經夠了，所以不一定要把國土計畫法用到……我每天出去，都被問：怎麼辦？還有什麼？農一、農二未來遇到天然災害，補助會有差別嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，絕對沒有。"],["劉部長世芳：完全不是。"],["丁委員學忠：這也是很大的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，因為現在看到的就是雲林縣政府還沒送出來，所以我們不知道它農業發展區農一、農二到底最後是怎麼劃的，我們是希望他們提出版本的時候，我們就可以來溝通。我舉一個例子，南投的部分，有一些土地被劃成國保區，我們覺得比較沒道理，所以我們會去協調把它劃為農業發展區。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["陳部長駿季：這樣的話會比較好。所以雲林的版本送出來以後，我們就可以對這個地方好好地去討論、溝通。"],["丁委員學忠：好，拜託部長你們費心一點，真的，我們雲林是漸漸走在進步、發展的方向當中。"],["陳部長駿季：我了解。"],["丁委員學忠：當然，如果真的確實來發展之後，中央也是功不可沒。"],["劉部長世芳：我們來支持雲林一定要發展。"],["丁委員學忠：這也都要感謝大家共同配合地方的發展，這是我們擔任公職的一個責任，所以拜託院長、拜託兩位部長，針對國土計畫法可以做一個詳細的說明，或是詳細的規劃之後，跟我們地方縣政府來做一個詳細的討論，包括劃設的範圍、劃設的方式，有一個明確的條例讓我們的百姓知道，不要讓大家有充滿疑慮的感覺，這樣好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們會繼續溝通。"],["丁委員學忠：好，謝謝，今天就到這裡。下課！"],["卓院長榮泰：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝丁學忠委員質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，今天下午是寶貴的一課，我們看到呂玉玲委員質詢是充滿了客家氣氛，丁學忠委員質詢充滿了閩南語的情境，臺灣民族文化非常五彩繽紛也百花齊放，非常值得珍惜，我自己個人也學習到很多。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長以及各部會首長列席答詢。10月1號（星期二）上午9點繼續開會，進行施政報告之質詢，現在休息。","休息（17時22分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","陳雪生","吳春城","林俊憲","萬美玲","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","林月琴","呂玉玲","王正旭","丁學忠"],"page_start":21,"meetingDate":["2024-09-27"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00002","1137601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137601_00003"}}},{"date":"2024-09-27","影片長度":"00:16:18","end_time":"2024-09-27T17:01:46+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154927","委員名稱":"王正旭","duration":978,"start_time":"2024-09-27T16:45:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7581ac2c05948052dfe9b3487113ffc9b4afc9d995ccd4a2f8161fa3a4357a4dbd08ba42753e627a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.03096875,"end":3.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27.18284375,"end":28.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29.17409375,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":31.75596875,"end":34.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":34.99596875,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":35.01284375,"end":37.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":37.088468750000004,"end":38.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":38.657843750000005,"end":40.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":44.63159375,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":52.29284375,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":59.56596875,"end":61.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":61.945343750000006,"end":64.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":64.67909375,"end":68.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.89846875,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":68.40846875,"end":70.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":70.61909375,"end":72.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":72.49221875,"end":75.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":75.78284375,"end":77.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":78.21284375,"end":80.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":81.23346875,"end":83.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":83.34284375,"end":93.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":93.53534375000001,"end":105.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":106.78221875000001,"end":108.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":109.06034375,"end":109.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":110.24159375,"end":111.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":112.48596875000001,"end":119.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":119.74221875,"end":140.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.27159375000002,"end":134.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.11471875,"end":139.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":140.53221875,"end":141.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":142.01721875,"end":142.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":143.51909375,"end":144.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":144.61596875,"end":145.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":145.81409375,"end":146.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":147.04596875000001,"end":147.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":148.09221875,"end":151.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":151.85534375,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":164.81534375,"end":165.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":166.03034375000001,"end":167.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":167.65034375000002,"end":169.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":169.64159375,"end":175.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":175.68284375000002,"end":177.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":177.64034375,"end":179.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":180.00284375,"end":180.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":181.67346875,"end":185.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":185.94284375,"end":185.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":186.06096875,"end":188.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":188.64284375000003,"end":192.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.48659375000003,"end":189.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":189.50346875000002,"end":189.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.55409375000002,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.91221875000002,"end":193.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.67159375,"end":194.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.44784375,"end":194.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":194.46471875,"end":194.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":194.54909375000003,"end":194.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":194.56596875000002,"end":194.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.58284375000002,"end":194.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":194.66721875000002,"end":194.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.68409375000002,"end":241.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.27159375000002,"end":249.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.10159375,"end":252.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.59471875000003,"end":255.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.34534375000004,"end":263.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","star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農業部陳部長還有衛福部邱部長環境部跟衛福部請備詢王委員好 院長好 還有各位部長好"},{"start":53.816,"end":79.408,"text":"剛剛李議員一開始的時候就在爭執或者是在討論臺灣的語言其實大家都一樣熱愛臺灣這一塊土地我們也相信要打造健康臺灣就需要有健康的土地還有永續的環境我想這一點大家都不會否認所以首先想要跟院長分享一個紀錄片"},{"start":81.277,"end":104.714,"text":"也許院長有看過或者有聽過可是還沒有看過那個叫縱圖那我曾經在本月初的時候去看這個試影片非常的感動非常感謝顏南全導演他為了這一部紀錄片花了8年的時間讓我們看見臺灣國土的生命力跟哀愁"},{"start":106.803,"end":111.619,"text":"很多的事情我們知道會透過我們的主角包括阿仁"},{"start":112.834,"end":139.627,"text":"安和哥針對臺灣這塊土地有關於農業發展跟環境永續他們所做的努力那其實我們也知道這塊土地曾經因為很多廢棄物造成的這些問題包括污染本身所以針對於土地污染所會造成的這些農業的永續跟糧食安全甚至各類疾病其實都是一個很重要的問題所以"},{"start":142.088,"end":162.354,"text":"希望也很感謝如果院長還有部長今天晚上也能夠一起去欣賞這部影片的話相信對於未來我們解決這些問題困境的時候能夠有一些啟發我們也知道其實在院長的施政報告裡面"},{"start":163.935,"end":167.359,"text":"國土永續環境改善部份﹚彭部長﹚"},{"start":181.776,"end":192.261,"text":"副部長有機會的話先做簡短的回應針對於我們的環境永續跟農地使用有沒有一些想法跟做法"},{"start":195.251,"end":212.018,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝委員的邀請我們會去參加那我環境部也承諾我們會帶頭來包場來響應支持這個國片換請由我們來帶起換請國人對於這個土地的重視那對於這個永續其實我們要從現在我們現在最迫切的就是淨零碳排"},{"start":212.498,"end":239.996,"text":"因為上游的氣候變遷如果淨零我們沒有解決的話遭遇到的問題會更多目前我們現在的確是在對於調試的氣候變遷調試正在做一些研議淨零是更有企圖心的在做所以我們兩方面在做至於農業的調試可能要請農業部來做一個詳細的回答我們環境部本身是從這種保育國土不要受到廢棄物或是毒物的侵擾的角度來做保護 謝謝"},{"start":242.81,"end":263.106,"text":"我跟委員說明一下就是其實在紀錄片裡面他所闡述的一個非常重要就是說用他的有機有膳的這種栽培的方式來去維護我們這個地利那因為過去我想我們用了很多傳統的化學肥料、化學農藥的部分讓我們的地利越來越不好"},{"start":263.729,"end":263.949,"text":"委員長王正旭"},{"start":285.367,"end":285.567,"text":"王正旭議員"},{"start":301.377,"end":325.292,"text":"好謝謝兩位部長的說明那兩位部長先請回謝謝那很期待晚上我們要去看這部電影也謝謝委員用醫師的本色關懷人的健康關懷土地的富裕那在王委員的安排底下我們剛剛有聽到好幾位首長好像晚上都會去看這場電影那我有榮幸因為已經很久沒有進電影院了"},{"start":327.108,"end":342.006,"text":"對臺灣土地富裕的有意義紀錄片謝謝委員的安排應該的,也謝謝院長的賞光,謝謝部長的賞光我們也知道其實對人民的健康對疾病的維護照護事實上都非常非常的重要"},{"start":342.602,"end":343.843,"text":"衛福部在9月25日公告﹚"},{"start":360.521,"end":360.721,"text":"王正旭"},{"start":381.329,"end":391.495,"text":"到底日本人民本身對於這個福島五線市的這些食品有沒有哪一些的疑慮或者是擔心那我所看到基本上"},{"start":392.975,"end":393.355,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":417.257,"end":417.518,"text":"衛生福利部﹚"},{"start":444.637,"end":459.336,"text":"在住外衛生代表有在5個國家﹐或者是地區安排的這個住外代表那日本其實除了在跟台灣有很密切的來往以外﹐很多很多的食品安全的問題"},{"start":460.157,"end":460.337,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":490.576,"end":516.616,"text":"感謝委員關心我們那個人民食品的一個健康我想我們衛福部所有的單位配合行政團隊一定是堅守人民的食品安全跟健康在這樣的沿著之下我們當然就是要做一個適當的一個國際間的一個交流的處理那至於說我們衛生人員派出國家的一個"},{"start":517.637,"end":521.202,"text":"施法定理是我們很重要在輝州的一個國家"},{"start":535.565,"end":563.443,"text":"邦交、歐盟還有馬來西亞剛剛委員所提的我們跟日本的關係非常的密切未來如果我們會再跟相關的像外交部或相關的單位來請示我們行政院這一邊大家一起來討論如果有必要我們也可以來做滾動式的調整"},{"start":564.497,"end":565.978,"text":"院長施政報告"},{"start":579.608,"end":608.373,"text":"當然我們極端重視臺灣跟民主夥伴國家更尤其是我們相鄰的民主夥伴的夥伴國家能夠進一步的發展正常的交流關係所以我們在這個情況底下我們會善盡我們的責任不過任何食品進到臺灣來我們所重的還是他的食品安全我們會做好安全的把關好像今天剛剛委員所推行的這些食品的進來無論如何要讓國人在安心無虞的情況底下"},{"start":609.173,"end":636.512,"text":"去得到資訊：知道他所接受的食品是可控的好 謝謝希望未來有機會能夠研議得到一個結果下一個問題就是要麻煩海委會的管主委一起來說明一下有關於目前我們知道台灣是一個海洋國家麻煩請管主委"},{"start":640.504,"end":641.785,"text":"海巡艦"},{"start":656.608,"end":685.207,"text":"海委會事實上非常用心﹖而且管主委也非常用心的去帶我們所有的海巡艦﹖能夠守護臺灣整個海域的安全﹖不管是在打擊走私﹖或者是有關於緊急醫療需求的部分﹖都付給海巡艦有非常大的任務﹖這一部分我們很樂意的去把這個海巡艦﹖各方面的功能機能﹖可以繼續的加強﹖那目前我們也知道在113年﹖"},{"start":687.009,"end":707.168,"text":"海巡署的施政目標跟重點裡面有討論到如何能夠讓整個海巡緊急醫療的需求可以照顧到當這個事件突然發生的時候如何去協助到這些醫療需求的過程包括傷患的運送 周邊海域緊急救護等等"},{"start":707.868,"end":736.425,"text":"那也知道說目前也建置了海上遠距智慧醫療系統那這一部分的醫療系統應該是有初步的建置不管是在跟呃臺船公司還有跟國軍高雄總醫院之間未來在設備上或者是在各方面的處理上如果有需要跟衛福部這邊有更多的連結的話我們很期待有這樣的這個互相的互動那在兩個禮拜前"},{"start":737.185,"end":754.219,"text":"我上了新竹見去了解整個的構造還有它在執行任務的過程裡面有關於醫療修復設施的部分有沒有需要再處理的地方我看到了真的非常的高興"},{"start":755.2,"end":755.58,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":776.664,"end":776.904,"text":"王正旭議員"},{"start":797.347,"end":809.746,"text":"關於移動式的這些設備方面可能是兩個之間唯一的差別那這部分不知道未來管主委會有沒有相關的計畫或者是討論或者是內容還要再加強的部分"},{"start":810.467,"end":838.249,"text":"非常謝謝王委員我們王委員在參觀我們的新竹建的時候做了非常非常多的專業的指導那尤其是對於新竹建未來是不是能夠在X光機的這個部分能夠有更多能夠來增加的這一點我們也都知道王委員的關心那跟王委員報告就是說目前這個醫療船上面我們最優先處理的部分"},{"start":838.949,"end":839.57,"text":"王正旭議員"},{"start":853.547,"end":854.108,"text":"王正旭議員"},{"start":871.288,"end":871.648,"text":"主委的說明好"},{"start":901.962,"end":926.008,"text":"那我下一個部分就是要請教在過來癌症的部分那我們也知道非常感謝肯定我們在這個癌篩的部分會有很大的擴增包括從原來的這個28億增加了40億到68億的整個癌篩可是我們比較擔心的就是"},{"start":926.601,"end":948.379,"text":"在這個癌篩過程裡面針對肺癌的篩檢事實上他要從原來5.5萬要擴增到50萬左右的篩檢的量能我們比較擔心的或者是希望衛福這邊可以再加強的部分就是偏鄉如何把這個肺癌的篩檢可以做到很完整那這部分可能還要麻煩院長"},{"start":977.585,"end":977.855,"text":"謝謝王正旭"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:45:28 - 17:01:46","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"154927","gazette":{"lineno":724,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（16時45分）謝謝主席。有請卓院長，另外麻煩環境部彭部長、農業部陳部長及衛福部邱部長。"],["主席：麻煩卓院長再備詢一次，環境部跟衛福部也請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：院長好、各位部長好。剛剛呂玉玲委員一開始的時候就在爭執、討論臺灣的語言，其實大家都一樣熱愛臺灣這塊土地，我們也相信要打造健康臺灣就需要有健康的土地及永續的環境，我想這一點大家都不會否認，所以首先想要跟院長分享一部紀錄片，也許院長有看過或者有聽過，可是還沒有看過，那個叫「種土」。我曾經在本月初去看了試映片，非常的感動，非常感謝顏蘭權導演，他為了這一部紀錄片花了八年的時間，讓我們看見臺灣國土的生命力跟哀愁，很多事情透過主角，包括阿仁跟安和哥，針對臺灣這塊土地，有關於農業發展跟環境永續，他們所做的努力。其實我們也知道這塊土地曾經因為很多廢棄物造成這些問題，包括污染本身，以及土地污染造成對農業永續跟糧食安全的影響甚至各類疾病，事實上都是很重要的問題。院長及部長如果今天晚上能夠一起去欣賞這部影片的話，相信對於未來我們解決這些問題及困境的時候，能夠有一些啟發。我們也知道，其實在院長的施政報告裡面，也針對國土永續、環境的改善部分做了非常多的說明，彭部長針對廢棄物的減量處理也有做了很多的著墨。請環境部彭部長及農業部陳部長有機會的話先作簡短的回應，針對我們的環境永續跟農地使用，有沒有一些想法與做法？"],["主席：請農業部備詢。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員的邀請，我們會去參加，同時環境部也承諾我們會帶頭包場來響應及支持國片，由我們來帶起，喚醒國人對於土地的重視。針對永續，其實我們現在最迫切的就是淨零碳排，因為上游的氣候變遷，如果淨零我們沒有解決的話，遭遇到的問題會更多，目前我們的確正在對氣候變遷調適做一些研議，淨零則是更有企圖心的在做，所以我們兩方面在做。至於農業的調適，可能要請農業部詳細的回答，環境部本身是從保育國土、不要受到廢棄物或是毒物侵擾的角度來保護，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明一下，其實在紀錄片裡面闡述的一個非常重要的理念就是要用有機、友善的栽培方式來維護我們的地力。過去我們用了很多傳統的化學肥料、化學農藥，讓我們的地力越來越不好，我們要讓臺灣的農業永續，一定要去改變我們現在一些耕作的思維跟模式，這個紀錄片其實帶給我們非常多的反思。農業部現在在推動非常多的有機、友善，在這邊也跟委員說明，我們到今年的上個月底大概已經推動了1萬9,500公頃左右的有機栽培面積，比6年前只有六千多、七千公頃左右，足足增長了一倍多，表示臺灣有越來越多人、越來越多的農民去守護這片土地。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝兩位部長的說明，兩位部長先請回，謝謝，很期待晚上我們要去看這部電影。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，也謝謝委員用醫師的本色，關懷人的健康，關懷土地的復育。在王委員的安排底下，剛剛我聽到好幾位首長好像晚上都會去看這場電影，我有榮幸，因為已經很久沒有進電影院了，也可以看看有關臺灣土地復育這樣一個有意義的紀錄片，謝謝委員的安排。"],["王委員正旭：應該的，也謝謝院長賞光，謝謝部長賞光。我們也知道，其實這個對人民的健康、對疾病的照護，事實上都非常、非常地重要。","不過再過來想要請教的，就是衛福部其實已經在9月25日公告有關於日本福島五縣市食品的規範，目前都已經跟國際一致，意思就是說，只要在日本他們所執行的這些福島五縣的食品，都能夠也可以很順利地進到臺灣來，臺灣也非常開放地接受這方面雙方食品之間的來往。","其實為了這個部分在兩個月前就公告，我利用8月中旬到日本去了解，到底日本人民本身對於福島五縣市的這些食品有沒有哪一些疑慮或者是擔心。以我所看到的，基本上日本的國民們對於福島五縣市的食品都是非常地接納，而且不會特別的排斥。我相信國人面對福島五縣市的食品進到臺灣能夠很開放地去接納，真的是不需要過度的擔憂。不過這方面其實也告訴我們，在跟國際各國標準一致的同時，我們如何能夠強化跟日本的合作，有沒有一個好的方式可以來掌握相關的食安，或者是因應像小林藥廠導致健康食品對國民健康帶來的衝擊？我就會想到，衛生福利部這邊未來有沒有可能對於駐外的衛生代表做相關的安排？因為我們也知道，目前衛福部有在5個國家或者是地區安排了駐外衛生代表，日本其實除了跟臺灣有很密切的來往以外，很多、很多食品安全的問題、高齡長照的問題、兒童醫療問題，事實上他們都有很豐富的經驗，所以未來有沒有機會，或者是部長或院長認為這個需求性跟必要性如何，能不能夠透過衛福部來安排這樣的人力，在日本能夠同步地去提高臺灣跟日本之間的交流？不知道部長跟院長有沒有這方面的規劃或是打算？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，感謝委員關心我們人民食品的健康，我想我們衛福部所有的單位配合行政團隊，一定是堅守人民的食品安全跟健康，在這樣的原則之下，我們當然就是要做適當的國際間交流。至於我們衛生人員派駐國家的擇定，衛福部這邊主要是配合國家的政策，像我們在過去，日內瓦是WHA、WHO的重鎮，美國也是有密切地在推展，而史瓦帝尼是我們在非洲很重要的邦交國家，還有歐盟、馬來西亞。剛剛委員所提的，我們跟日本的關係非常地密切，未來我們會再跟外交部或相關的單位來請示行政院，大家一起討論，如果有必要，我們也可以做滾動式的調整。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以院長也會同意，如果將來有機會研議好的話，我們就可以有這個機會，讓這位代表可以更加提高臺灣與日本之間很多的交流跟互動？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，我們極端重視臺灣與民主夥伴國家，更尤其是與相鄰的民主夥伴國家，能夠進一步發展正常的交流關係。所以，在這個情況底下，我們會善盡我們的責任。不過，任何食品進到臺灣來，我們首重的還是其食品安全，我們會做好安全把關，像剛剛委員所垂詢這些食品的進來，無論如何，要讓國人在安心無虞的情況底下得到資訊，知道他所接受的食品是可控的。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝，希望未來有機會能夠研議出一個結果。","下一個問題要麻煩海委會管主委一起來說明一下。我們知道臺灣是一個海洋國家……"],["主席：麻煩請管主委備詢。"],["王委員正旭：因為這個牽扯到海巡艦，海委會事實上非常用心，而且管主委非常用心帶所有海巡艦……"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：能夠守護臺灣整個海域的安全，不管是在打擊走私，或者是有關於緊急醫療需求部分，都賦予海巡艦非常大的任務。這一部分，我們很樂意去把海巡艦各方面的功能、機能繼續加強。目前我們也知道，在113年海巡署的施政目標及重點裡面，有討論到如何能夠讓整個海巡緊急醫療的需求，可以顧及當事件突然發生的時候，如何協助這些醫療需求的過程，包括傷患運送、周邊海域緊急救護等等，目前也建置了海上遠距智慧醫療系統，這部分的醫療系統應該是有初步的建置，不管是與台船公司，還有與國軍高雄總醫院之間，未來在設備上或者是在各方面的處理上，如果有需要跟衛福部有更多連結的話，我們很期待有這樣的互動。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["王委員正旭：在兩個禮拜前，我上了新竹艦去了解整個構造，還有它在執行任務過程裡面有關於醫療救護設施，有沒有需要再處理的地方。我看到真的非常高興，的確有各種各類，如果出現類似在戰爭狀態或者是在緊急狀態之下，事實上它很容易就可以有執行野戰醫院的實力跟設備。相較於目前國軍最大的磐石艦，新竹艦是4,000噸的規模，真的可以執行很多很多手術、診療等等。其中，未來如果有執行擴大醫療的需求，在這個過程裡面，我看到的部分就是可能的話，相較於磐石艦，X光移動式設備方面可能是兩者之間唯一的差別，這部分不知道未來管主委有沒有相關的計畫、討論，或者是內容還要再加強的部分？"],["管主任委員碧玲：非常謝謝王委員。王委員在參觀我們新竹艦的時候，做了非常、非常多專業的指導，尤其是對於新竹艦未來是不是在X光機的部分能夠增加的這一點，我們也都知道王委員的關心。跟王委員報告，目前這個醫療船上面最優先處理的部分是在，譬如說，因為船上比較封閉，我們要非常重視的是傳染疾病的問題，所以負壓隔離病房很優先，因此有負壓隔離病房。還有就是初級手術有手術室，在船上是可以動手術的，所以有手術室、有手術準備室。另外是因為在海上救難的時候，海上的海事災難有時候涉及海上化學物品的爆炸或者是火災，所以燒燙傷的處理我們是有的；另外，救生、救難的時候常常會遇到失溫的現象，所以復溫室在上面也是有的，跟磐石艦比起來，因為4,000噸級畢竟空間受限，所以X光機的部分，我們只有牙科的X光機，有牙科室還有牙科的X光機等等……"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝主委的說明。"],["管主任委員碧玲：未來如果有新的造艦計畫，我們會納入委員您關切的話題。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝管主委。","下一個部分是要請教癌症的部分，我們非常感謝及肯定癌篩的部分有很大的擴增，包括從原來預備的28億，增加了40億，到68億，這是整個癌篩的部分。可是我們比較擔心的是在這個癌篩過程裡面，針對肺癌的篩檢，要從原來的5.5萬擴增到50萬左右的篩檢量能，我們比較擔心的或是希望衛福部這邊可以再加強的部分就是偏鄉，如何把肺癌的篩檢做到很完整，這部分可能還要麻煩院長，希望能夠趕快召開相關的癌症防治會報來達到這個任務。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員，偏鄉我們會特別重視，尤其是　肺癌的癌篩，現在因為是進行低劑量的，會比較容易早期就發現，有助於我們做更多的治療，所以就是從這裡著手，希望降低癌症的死亡率。委員所垂詢的部分，我們會特別請衛福部再重視。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請丁學忠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","陳雪生","吳春城","林俊憲","萬美玲","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","林月琴","呂玉玲","王正旭","丁學忠"],"page_start":21,"meetingDate":["2024-09-27"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00002","1137601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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呂玉玲好想請問你一下剛剛日本的自民黨他的新總裁當選人這個石破茂你認識不認識我們在媒體上都看過很多次看過 那你認識嗎近距離沒有認識近距離沒有認識那請教對台日的關係有沒有影響那你有什麼期待"},{"start":54.367,"end":80.494,"text":"他可能就是下屆的新首相我覺得民主夥伴國家這個民主成熟到一定程度之後對國家的國策的發展他一定有長遠的一個觀察跟制定那任何一個經選舉出來的國家領導人我們除了給予祝福之外我們當然希望能夠持續的深化加深台日雙方之間的關係我也認為在現在的民主夥伴國家的這種產業鏈以及共同防禦地方"},{"start":81.334,"end":82.495,"text":"簡單的幾句那你是講哪一種台語廣告用的廣告詞廣告詞"},{"start":109.38,"end":109.9,"text":"我最熟悉的台語阿"},{"start":138.401,"end":159.097,"text":"臺語有很多種,在臺灣通行的像閩南語、客家語、客語還有原住民語都叫做臺語,對不對?都叫做國家語言臺灣的國家語言嘛,就是臺語嘛所以臺語包含的,在臺灣的方言,很多種都叫臺語,是不是?"},{"start":160.963,"end":186.475,"text":"臺語包括很多我們自然使用所用的語言包括原住民語包括客語包括我們的手語都是我們的國家語言國家語言在臺灣就叫臺語院長我們都是臺灣人臺灣的方言臺灣的臺語有這麼多種我們不能夠忽視其他的族群所以不能說臺語就是獨尊於閩南語這樣對其他的族群是非常不公平的"},{"start":186.835,"end":204.409,"text":"所以我一直說這是我們的國家語言我們也會設立國家語言的研究發展中心所以通通都可以叫台語 台灣的閩南語 台灣的客家語 台灣的原住民語 是不是我還是希望說通通叫做國家語言是 我知道院長在閃躲"},{"start":206.519,"end":229.124,"text":"其實我剛剛一直強調我們都是臺灣人我們的先祖在臺灣幾十年的打拼耕耘才奠定下來的基礎所以每一個族群對臺灣都有貢獻都有付出我們應該要公平的對待更何況應該要海納百川這才是有公平對每一個族群的"},{"start":229.824,"end":255.174,"text":"所以本席今天會這樣子問就是因為現在一直在講說臺語是屬於什麼語言臺語就是臺灣通行的語就叫做臺語所以我們看到這個文化部特別有發文到各縣市去要他們去修正臺語就是閩南語閩南語就是臺語院長你支持你認同嗎"},{"start":255.834,"end":277.262,"text":"你的態度又是怎麼樣這種講法也是一種自然的講法啦現在所謂閩南語台語大家也是常常把它混在一起講這個也沒有對錯問題就是它習慣性的用語我就在這裡除了尊重大家對自己所有母語的保存跟使用之外這種自然的講法大家也應該比較包容啦"},{"start":278.148,"end":282.832,"text":"我並不覺得這怎麼不覺得可是你不能獨尊阿現在是台語獨尊是閩南語耶我們到客家地區的時候"},{"start":307.455,"end":332.709,"text":"文化部都發魂到各縣市去了因為我們很多客家的鄉親通通群起抗議我不曉得劉院長都沒有聽到這些聲音嗎包括我們的文化部長李部長都上來了部長你也是客家人我知道你有很多的客家的戲劇都是你編排的你也寫了很多客家的童話包括我晚上在我地方指風車"},{"start":334.96,"end":352.073,"text":"都要表演這個客家文化的劇本都是從你的童話故事改變過來的所以本期在這邊要強烈的要求我們應該要更正修正為臺語的閩南語臺灣的閩南語臺灣的客語臺灣的原住民"},{"start":357.011,"end":372.689,"text":"要海報百川啊 要有廣大的含義啊 台語的內涵裡面是廣大的這包含著客語 閩南語跟原住民語 跟手語都包括進去我們不能矮化自己啊 不能讓語言的疆域變小了"},{"start":373.683,"end":401.483,"text":"尤其是你如果講閩南語的話他來自哪裡他來自福建省張州泉州過來尤其是部長你的父母也是從福建的客家過來的嘛這都是可以一起的去發展我們的語言國家語言要一起公平的發展這是本席要強調的所以我請教院長部長你們可不可以做這個修正"},{"start":402.578,"end":421.19,"text":"我可不可以回答一下其實當初會有這個語言的制定是因為臺灣有非常多的語言漸漸消失了比如說我們剛才講臺語啊客家語啊原住民語或者手語漸漸消失我們才會制定這個語言法那其實兩年前我們制定的所謂臺語是臺灣臺語"},{"start":424.454,"end":425.375,"text":"台灣的台語那就是福建的台語囉"},{"start":440.223,"end":444.305,"text":"我最近去日本看到他們有一本書寫臺灣華語臺灣華語什麼意思呢就是語言會透過一段歷史以後還有演變那臺灣華語就是經過歷史演變之後隔海"},{"start":458.717,"end":479.702,"text":"很長一段時間這個語言已經跟中國大陸的那個語言不太一樣他所寫的台灣華語其實大概就是這個意思啦所以我信的是對各個族群在台灣共進的各個族群你都要公平對待尤其台灣講的各個方言都是他的魔語所以我們要給你尊重要公平對待所以你應該要做個修正好不好"},{"start":480.302,"end":480.682,"text":"請客委會主委備詢"},{"start":495.196,"end":521.186,"text":"因為國家的語言啊 很多的 臺灣人使用的很多的方言都是我們國家語言發展法那種界定的國家語言所以都應該稱作臺語啦所以谷主委我剛剛已經講了很多了你是客委會的主委客家的鄉親很氣憤的就是你靜悄悄的一句幫客家人說話都沒有"},{"start":522.73,"end":540.837,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們是尊重每個族群的自稱跟他稱你代表著客家委員會的初委是 所以我們我們全國客家人有五六百人將近六百萬人我們是第二大族群"},{"start":541.664,"end":544.506,"text":"你沒有一句話嗎我在講客家你跟我發言講客家是"},{"start":569.073,"end":572.339,"text":"你自己不尊重自己人家怎麼會尊重你呢"},{"start":581.004,"end":600.084,"text":"我剛提到了客家在稱閩南的族群一般是講hollo我們尊重閩南尊重閩南的族群我們都尊重我現在是要公平對待我們對於自稱就是稱我們的語言是客語"},{"start":600.845,"end":604.709,"text":"主委你不要在這邊造口令了﹖對你非常的失望"},{"start":616.52,"end":634.833,"text":"對你非常的失望我在這邊要重申的就是說我們臺語獨尊為閩南語是做法是抹殺了所有祖先在這塊土地的奴隸也扼殺了臺灣客語甚至於我們的客家文化的一個發展大家都說所以我希望院長部長主委"},{"start":641.798,"end":643.378,"text":"接下來我想請問的就是我們"},{"start":669.117,"end":684.049,"text":"農科三企業到現在還慶悄悄的尤其臺灣的半導體產業在國際間都佔有這個非常舉足輕重的角色尤其是我們工研業有統計了2023年臺灣半導體的產值將近有新臺幣的4兆3428億元今年有可能就會達到5兆的這個大關卡"},{"start":693.116,"end":702.501,"text":"新竹科學園區為中心的桃竹苗地區就憑著成熟的半導體產業鏈成為台灣科技的廊道所以賴慶德總統特別在這個基礎上也提出了桃竹苗大細果這個計畫在2月22號行政院也通過了預計在這個4年會突破6兆的產值增加14萬個工作機會"},{"start":721.169,"end":737.916,"text":"那既然是針對這個桃竹苗這個半導體的這個整個產業的這個實力能夠更促進我們區域的這個發展那其中龍潭的龍科三期就是涵蓋在桃竹苗的大細股這計畫裡面2022年的時候這個蘇貞昌院長"},{"start":742.338,"end":768.399,"text":"他就宣布要啟動榮科三期當時沒有跟地主溝通這個申請的範圍造成了很多的民怨後來呢本席跟這個科管局跟我們的桃園市政府溝通之後的話取得了共識大概要發展的面積有90公頃已經有共識了但是就缺少了兩次的這個公聽會上個會期我本席也問過我們的院長院長說大概在3月4月會舉辦這兩次的公聽會"},{"start":770.461,"end":786.986,"text":"到現在要10月了還沒有為什麼卡關卡關的原因在哪裡榮科山崎因為地方上對於他園區的範圍還在做一個討論那我們如何跟地方加強溝通尤其是跟那個桃竹渺大溪谷這個怎麼樣融進去"},{"start":788.406,"end":811.448,"text":"這個部分我想國科會是有進度的我們請國科會來做說明我們現在竹科管理局是積極在協助桃園市政府跟居民在溝通那現在桃園市政府還有一些細節必須要解決沒有 就等兩次的公聽會就等你的公聽會全部溝通共識協調好了"},{"start":813.267,"end":839.835,"text":"還沒有完全解決哪個部分哪一個部分就是國小的部分國小圈國小的部分也在上個會期業長你承諾我了叫德隆國小嘛德隆國小原來你們是要屬於北圈北圈在這個永光路這邊跟一個祥安國小是重疊的校區所以我們建議不要重疊校區應該讓在地4個里的學生都可以在這邊就讀所以本席當場就建議囉"},{"start":840.555,"end":842.256,"text":"這部分我們科學人氣管理局沒有意見只要市政府協調"},{"start":864.666,"end":877.553,"text":"市政府確定還是客管局確定當然是市政府因為這個跟居民溝通那就請問年底以前可不可以開這兩場公聽會只要市政府同意的話我們一定協助"},{"start":882.958,"end":895.936,"text":"公聽會是要徵收土地我們116年就要土地的徵收跟所有工程的進度116年就要執行了你到現在還沒有公聽會耶可不可以承諾我年底前辦公聽會"},{"start":897.444,"end":904.006,"text":"國科會是跟桃園市政府之間的溝通還要再加強這個如果能夠請委員也幫忙所以我說沒有問題現在是看我們的國科會開館局年底前辦兩場"},{"start":925.446,"end":943.09,"text":"因為以前一一二年去年就已經辦兩場了這是沒有共識的現在有共識的辦兩場是很快的已經取得共識了我報告已經取得共識了就是共識才等啊從三四月等到七八月也沒有"},{"start":945.129,"end":968.427,"text":"只有這麼難嗎還是因為陶珠苗大溪谷計劃我們國發會還沒有送計劃到行政院去核准所以你們要等著這個政績歸納到大溪谷計劃嗎因為這個而延宕去等大溪谷計劃嗎如果沒有就年底辦公聽會啊我們是朝這個方向在走就是陶珠苗大溪谷那就年底前公聽會來舉辦"},{"start":970.185,"end":993.894,"text":"主要是市政府沒問題已經有共識條件是這樣市政府沒問題我們就沒問題那就是年底辦兩場接下來我想請問的就是在我們桃園市這個桃科已經有送計劃"},{"start":996.038,"end":1012.84,"text":"二度被經濟部給撤回處分所以現在經濟部也撤回了我們台灣市政府也二度撤回了這個處分那現在產業也準備要提這個訴願那我不曉得院長"},{"start":1014.585,"end":1031.808,"text":"還是我們的環境部長還是我們的次長你們針對這件事情你們了解嗎先請教院長你知道這整個過程嗎為什麼有這個過程最新的發展是今天環境部有對於SRF的這個一些重要的要更嚴苛的標準"},{"start":1033.37,"end":1033.79,"text":"是不是?"},{"start":1033.79,"end":1033.81,"text":"部長"},{"start":1058.448,"end":1086.231,"text":"報告委員現在的程序是經濟部撤銷原來市政府否決他入園的處分回到原點市政府要重新審核市政府又再度否准他進入入園沒有再度否准處分不行入園否決掉了是那麼現在他們又提起訴願那訴願會的進行是程序面的問題在實質面我們經濟部還是鼓勵廠商遵守最嚴格的標準跟桃園市政府好好討論來"},{"start":1088.552,"end":1113.506,"text":"所以 院長我要提醒跟部長員二度被桃園市政府撤銷這個處分現在要問的就是前因是因為經濟部的推薦護航開後門一定要讓這個三家廠商進來桃科那現在桃園市政府跟人民站在一起要不要犧牲了人民的健康所以二度處分撤銷了"},{"start":1115.199,"end":1133.497,"text":"彭部長你要更嚴苛的標準你去更嚴苛標準這是符合標準的嚴苛是應該的但是我們並不要讓他入園啦我扑到他入園是不用到嚴苛的標準去那現在已經有這樣子了現在我看到市政府已經撤銷了那現在經濟部的態度"},{"start":1135.353,"end":1135.373,"text":"5月13號"},{"start":1150.916,"end":1168.121,"text":"美國的在台協會拜訪了前經濟部長王美華 針對這件事情非常的關切本席也特別去查了一下 這三家廠商當中 台灣的立方能源是美國基礎建設投資的基金是百分之百"},{"start":1169.704,"end":1171.787,"text":"你們是不是受到美國的壓力負力循環經濟"},{"start":1184.228,"end":1188.89,"text":"地方政府有權嗎?你尊重地方政府嗎?尊重為什麼撤銷他的儲備?哪裡不一樣?因為經濟部也撤回了他自己的推薦書啊"},{"start":1204.797,"end":1231.965,"text":"事實上他不要承擔責任啊他悄悄的他收回他的推薦書耶依照術院會的決定當時的入園標準的規定就是由地方政府來核定跟經濟部有沒有推薦期好那地方政府就不要讓他入園了嘛剛剛講的啊那你要不要尊重地方地方審核過了不要啊所以院長過程我相信你前面應該都有去了解了那後面的結果我也告訴你了"},{"start":1232.674,"end":1258.58,"text":"我不希望二賭還有三賭這個惡性循環要叫我們所有關於的鄉親用健康來付代價嗎剛剛次長講得清楚我們尊重地方政府但是民間的業者也有他提起他溯源來了所以我請教他的溯源來了你是要跟民意跟我們桃園鄉親站在一起還是跟業者站在一起你們是不是說到美國"},{"start":1259.64,"end":1268.551,"text":"在台協會的壓力沒有沒有 絕對沒有訴願的程序就讓他用訴願委員會的專業去處理地方政府撤銷了那你繼續不要再撤銷嗎但是也不能剝奪訴願的權利就讓他訴願委員會專業去處理所以他的訴願 你們決定怎麼回"},{"start":1275.018,"end":1276.139,"text":"我強調不要二度撤回又來三度撤回請你們聽聽"},{"start":1302.83,"end":1319.647,"text":"民意聽聽我們地方鄉親的聲音不要讓我們對這個有汙染的這個發電廠要負擔著這個身體的健康好不好當初應該是為了要處理垃圾的問題想到這個方式那大家能不能接受我們現在用一種比較客觀的方式"},{"start":1323.148,"end":1325.609,"text":"循環經濟循環經濟不能讓桃園一個人負擔啊不能讓桃園負擔啊 是不是桃園大部屋各式各樣的我們的整個基礎建設"},{"start":1342.728,"end":1362.484,"text":"是不是所以請你跟民意站在一起彭部長對於垃圾的處理是積極而用心的報告委員其實桃園有非常多露天裸露的垃圾山我們也積極在解決那SRF呢也建議大家可以經由可以看我們中午的記者會我們有把它證明也把它釐清那我也報告委員我上前兩個禮拜在德國"},{"start":1363.204,"end":1363.424,"text":"接下來下一個問題"},{"start":1392.486,"end":1413.224,"text":"委員長我們一直在講電價的問題台電我們已經在增資在補償裡面已經到5000億了現在我們的電價審議委員會也一定要在9月底就要來開了今天沒有開禮拜一也要開了那我特別去了解這個"},{"start":1417.086,"end":1441.728,"text":"電價審議委員會有17位委員那代表我們政府的有8席那代表工商跟消費者的有3席有6席是專家學者所以政府的態度就是關鍵工商界當然不願意漲價嘛所以3席當然是反對的所以政府態度是怎麼樣如果這8席跟我們工商消費者站在一起的話"},{"start":1442.757,"end":1468.323,"text":"沈殷熙對這個六席你說這審議委員會的結果會是什麼呢所以關鍵在行政院所謂院長你的指示了沒有這外部委員已經明顯超過政府內部的委員了所以應該是讓他們去討論我剛剛告訴你了啊六席專家而已啊我說外部委員已經超過"},{"start":1469.113,"end":1491.02,"text":"政府內部的委員是17席嗎 有錯嗎沒有錯啊 17席沒錯啊代表政府也是8席嘛工商跟消費者3席啊 6席是專家學者啊所以政府的態度是非常關鍵的如果政府要漲價就漲價了所以政府的態度啊你不要不承擔漲價的問題而推給電價審議委員會 甩鍋讓他們去背"},{"start":1496.189,"end":1510.907,"text":"這個制度的結果我們設立所以我說政府的代表巴西你們巴西是什麼態度嗎就是在討論當中會議進行當中他們去討論態度那我之前在這個地方我也說過民生用電的穩定"},{"start":1513.032,"end":1515.914,"text":"我們知道臺電也提出來了臺電的員工真的很辛苦欸斤斤計較又風吹日曬的但是決策者在上面"},{"start":1542.299,"end":1562.945,"text":"決策扯在上面啊你們說：電價要漲就漲也不告訴我們原因啊為什麼要漲國際原物料上漲就跟著漲那為什麼國際原料會上漲呢因為我們火力發電占了八成為基載的主要的那個發電所以這就是不是我們的能源政策有問題能源的配比有問題為什麼不去討論"},{"start":1568.507,"end":1574.152,"text":"委員 剛剛我們談到 那我們的發電成本可以降低科學園區 多少的國際大廠來台灣都是要用綠電這個是國際的趨勢我們如果沒有權力的發展綠電我們跟這個世界潮流是接不上的所以我們的能源政策沒有問題那其中一大半是用燃氣發電"},{"start":1595.39,"end":1621.758,"text":"對阿所以我說有替代能源的配比我們要不要來開個國事論壇一下共同討論解決台灣能源的未來的問題制裁是正式不要造成這個民怨一直都沒有討論捏我們一直喊台電受不了了台電也提出來了阿他不找民生長工業用電14%你支持嗎院長支持嗎"},{"start":1623.422,"end":1623.702,"text":"這個機制我還是要尊重阿"},{"start":1642.915,"end":1644.096,"text":"臺電也提出他的建議了"},{"start":1662.014,"end":1665.097,"text":"臺電也是基於他的專業分析跟財務的分析去做了幾項內容那這個就要交到電價審議委員會去討論了臺電"},{"start":1679.611,"end":1698.556,"text":"台電到現在只是有一些分析分析了 你知道他的分析嗎最苦的就是台電啦你的能源政策不改嘛他只能夠照單全收啦所以我們要幫台電既能做電網的安全也能照顧民生 也能反映成本強振電網已經喊了10年我們的預算超過5000億給他不是補吹他的虧損喔"},{"start":1706.599,"end":1715.083,"text":"政府能做的就是把他過去負擔的政策補助的任務移轉到目的事業集團機關 減輕他政策的負擔人民受不了了"},{"start":1727.83,"end":1744.936,"text":"我們這是最大的改變就是讓他很多的政策的承擔補貼的政策回到各目的世界主管機關減輕他的財務的壓力他希望能夠這樣 郭部長講過他希望兩年內能夠看到他往財務健全的方向走"},{"start":1746.363,"end":1750.424,"text":"所以在這邊 院長你針對現在我們的電價的問題你有沒有要對民眾說的因為民眾已經受不了了"},{"start":1774.465,"end":1795.89,"text":"我會跟民眾一起節約用電那麼對電價的節約用電又是口號了可以不開冷氣嗎如果把節約用電口號的話長電費就是萬物皆漲物價高漲我們做了很多節約用電報告我們明年度對於家電的補助希望能夠更換成高效率的家電補助我們又投出了相當的預算"},{"start":1799.393,"end":1804.56,"text":"指出很多了根本沒有辦法治本所以請院長正視這個民怨好不好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:15:15 - 16:45:23","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"154926","gazette":{"lineno":478,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（16時15分）謝謝院長，請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：呂委員好！"],["呂委員玉玲：院長，想請問你一下，日本自民黨的新總裁當選人─石破茂，你認識不認識？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在媒體上都看過很多次。"],["呂委員玉玲：看過，你認識嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：近距離，沒有認識。"],["呂委員玉玲：近距離，沒有認識。請教，對臺日的關係有沒有影響？你有什麼期待？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得……"],["呂委員玉玲：他可能就是下屆的新首相。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我覺得民主夥伴國家的民主成熟到一定的程度之後，對國家國策的發展，它一定有長遠的觀察及制定，任何一個經選舉出來的國家領導人，除了給予祝福之外，我們當然希望能夠持續地深化、加深臺日雙方之間的關係。我也認為，在現在民主夥伴國家這種產業鏈，以及共同防禦地方和平穩定的這個狀況底下，我們一定有能力，也有辦法，更需要去增加雙方的關係。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，只要支持臺灣的盟友，我們都希望能夠共存共榮。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。接下來本席想請教一下，院長，你會講台語嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：簡單的幾句。"],["呂委員玉玲：你是講哪一種台語？"],["卓院長榮泰：廣告用的。"],["呂委員玉玲：什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：廣告詞。"],["呂委員玉玲：廣告詞？閩南語啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有啦！就是比較常見的一些廣告詞，用日語發音的。"],["呂委員玉玲：這個就是台語是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：HONDA、TOYOTA這種的。"],["呂委員玉玲：台語耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：你說台語喔！"],["呂委員玉玲：我是說台語耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：我以為你說日語耶！"],["呂委員玉玲：我說台語，我說院長，你會不會講台語？你是講哪一種台語？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然會講台語，我一出生就講台語啊！"],["呂委員玉玲：哪一種台語？"],["卓院長榮泰：哪一種台語？我最熟悉的台語。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為台語有很多種，在臺灣通行的，像閩南語、客家語，還有原住民語，都叫做台語，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：都叫做國家語言。"],["呂委員玉玲：是臺灣的國家語言嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是、是。"],["呂委員玉玲：就是台語嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以台語包含很多種，只要是在臺灣的方言都叫台語，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：台語包括很多種我們自然所用的語言，包括原住民語，包括客語，包括我們的手語，都是我們的國家語言。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，國家語言在臺灣就叫台語。院長，我們都是臺灣人……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：臺灣的方言、臺灣的台語有這麼多種，我們不能夠忽視其他的族群，所以不能說台語就是獨尊閩南語，這樣對其他的族群是非常不公平的。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我一直說，這是我們的國家語言，我們也會設立國家語言的研究發展中心。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以通通都可以叫台語，臺灣的閩南語、臺灣的客家語、臺灣的原住民語，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是希望通通叫做國家語言。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，我知道院長在閃躲啦！其實我剛剛一直強調，我們都是臺灣人，我們的祖先在臺灣幾十年的打拼耕耘才奠定下來了基礎，所以每一個族群對臺灣都有貢獻、都有付出，我們應該要公平地對待，更何況應該要海納百川，這才是有公平對每一個族群。","本席今天會這樣子問就是因為現在一直在講台語是屬於什麼語言，台語就是臺灣通行的語，就叫做台語，所以我們看到文化部有特別發文到各縣市去，要他們去修正台語就是閩南語，閩南語就是台語。院長，你支持、你認同嗎？你的態度又是怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：這種講法也是一種自然的講法啦！現在所謂閩南語、台語，大家也是常常把它們混在一起講，這個也沒有對錯問題，就是大家習慣性的用語。我覺得在這裡除了尊重大家對自己所有母語的保存及使用之外，對這種自然的講法，大家也應該比較包容啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：院長，你這樣抹煞了祖先在臺灣貢獻的各個族群，這代表著自我減弱了語族的勢力，跟自我縮小了語言僵硬的、矮化的作法。"],["卓院長榮泰：我並不覺得。"],["呂委員玉玲：怎麼不覺得？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為很自然地表達任何一種語言或者稱呼一種語言，那就是一種文化的包容。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是你不能獨尊啊！現在台語獨尊是閩南語耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們到客家地區的時候……"],["呂委員玉玲：包括文化部都發文到各縣市去了，所以我們很多客家的鄉親通通群起抗議……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們到客家地區的時候，講客語也都能夠……"],["呂委員玉玲：院長，你都沒有聽到這些聲音嗎？包括我們的文化部長李部長都上來了，部長，你也是客家人。"],["李部長遠：是、是，我來回答。"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道有很多客家的戲劇都是你編排的，你也寫了很多客家的童話，包括晚上在我的地方，紙風車要表演客家文化的劇本，都是從你的童話故事改編過來的。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以本席在這邊要強烈地要求，我們應該要更正、修正為臺灣的閩南語、臺灣的客語、臺灣的原住民語，要海納百川，要有廣大的含義，台語的內涵是廣大的，包含著客語、閩南語跟原住民語，連手語都包括進去，我們不能矮化自己啊！不能讓語言的疆域變小了，尤其是如果講閩南語的話，它來自哪裡？它來自福建省，從漳州、泉州過來，尤其是部長，你的父母也是從福建的客家過來的，這都可以一起去發展我們的語言，國家語言要一起公平地發展，這是本席要強調的。所以我請教院長、部長，你們可不可以做這個修正？"],["李部長遠：我可不可以回答一下？其實當初會有這個語言的制定是因為臺灣有非常多的語言漸漸消失，譬如說我們剛才講台語、客家語、原住民語或是手語，漸漸消失，我們才會制定這個語言法，其實兩年前我們制定所謂台語是臺灣台語或者臺灣閩南語或者台語都可以用。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以剛剛我強調了，臺灣的閩南語也是來自福建。"],["李部長遠：對、對。"],["呂委員玉玲：最多的就是漳州跟泉州。"],["李部長遠：其實就是臺灣台語。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你把臺灣的台語叫做福建的台語嗎？可以這樣講嗎？沒有人認同啊！很多都是自外而來的。"],["李部長遠：我最近去日本看到他們有一本書寫臺灣華語，臺灣華語是什麼意思呢？就是語言透過一段歷史以後，它會有演變，臺灣華語就是經過歷史演變，隔很長一段時間之後，這個語言已經跟中國大陸的那個語言不太一樣，所以寫臺灣華語，其實大概就這個意思啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：我現在是認為對在臺灣貢獻的各個族群你都要公平對待。"],["李部長遠：我們都冠上臺灣。"],["呂委員玉玲：臺灣講的各個方言都是他的母語，所以我們要給予尊重，要公平對待。"],["李部長遠：沒錯。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你應該要做個修正，好不好？"],["李部長遠：是，我會去檢討。"],["呂委員玉玲：我現在就是講客家，我們客委會的主委還沒有站出來，請客委會的古主委。"],["主席：麻煩請客委會主委備詢。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為很多臺灣人使用的很多方言都是我們國家語言發展法內所界定的國家語言，所以都應該稱作台語。古主委，我剛剛已經講了很多了，你是客委會的主委，客家的鄉親很氣憤的就是你靜悄悄的，幫客家人說一句話都沒有。"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，其實我們是尊重每個族群的自稱跟他稱。"],["呂委員玉玲：你代表客家委員會的主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，所以我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們全國客家人有將近六百萬人，我們是第二大族群，你沒有一句話嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，跟委員報告，我剛剛提到我們尊重所有族群的自稱跟他稱，客家人對於所謂閩南人都是講「河洛」，所以這是一般平常日常的稱呼，至於臺灣台語、台語或者是閩南語……"],["呂委員玉玲：我在講客家，你跟我發言講客家。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，我剛剛提到了，就是尊重所有族群，因為閩南人自己也會稱他的……"],["呂委員玉玲：你自己不尊重自己，人家怎麼會尊重你呢？你到現在還沒講客家耶！"],["古主任委員秀妃：我剛剛提到了，客家稱閩南的族群一般是講「河洛」。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們尊重閩南、尊重閩南的族群，我們都尊重，我現在是要公平對待。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，我們對於自稱我們的語言是客語、臺灣客語的這個部分，以及稱臺灣河洛，也可以說臺灣台語，都是自稱跟他稱……"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，你不要在這邊繞口令了，我對你非常地失望！我在這邊要重申的就是，我們台語獨尊為閩南語的作法抹煞了所有祖先在這塊土地上的努力，也扼煞了臺灣客語，甚至於我們客家文化的發展。大家都說客家人要認真、要打拚、要堅持，所以我希望院長、部長、主委，你們應該要讓我們的客語能夠重生，讓我們的台語不能只有代表閩南語，而是代表臺灣所有的方言，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：兩位請回。接下來我想請問的就是，龍科三期到現在還靜悄悄的，臺灣的半導體產業在國際間都占有舉足輕重的角色，尤其是工研院有統計過，2023年臺灣半導體的產值有將近新臺幣4兆3,428億元，今年有可能就會達到5兆的大關卡，以新竹科學園區為中心的桃竹苗地區，就憑著成熟的半導體產業鏈成為臺灣科技的廊道。","所以賴清德總統特別在這個基礎上也提出了桃竹苗大矽谷的計畫，在2月22日行政院也通過了，預計在這4年會突破6兆產值、增加14萬個工作機會，希望桃竹苗半導體整個產業的實力能夠更促進我們區域的發展，其中龍潭的龍科三期就是涵蓋在桃竹苗的大矽谷計畫裡面。2022年的時候，蘇貞昌院長就宣布要啟動龍科三期，當時沒有跟地主溝通徵收的範圍，造成了很多的民怨，後來本席跟科管局跟桃園市政府溝通之後取得了共識，大概要發展的面積有90公頃，已經有共識了，但是就缺少了兩次公聽會。上個會期本席也問過院長，院長說大概在3月、4月會舉辦這兩次的公聽會，到現在要10月了，還沒有舉辦，為什麼卡關了？卡關的原因在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為地方上對於龍科三期園區的範圍還在討論，我們如何跟地方加強溝通，尤其是跟桃竹苗大矽谷這個計畫，怎麼樣融進去，這個部分國科會是有進度的，請國科會來說明。"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在竹科管理局積極在協助桃園市政府跟居民溝通，現在桃園市政府還有一些細節必須要解決，一個就是國小的部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：沒有，就等兩次的公聽會，就等你的公聽會了，全部溝通、共識協調好了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好像還沒有完全解決。"],["呂委員玉玲：哪一個部分？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是國小的部分，國小遷……"],["呂委員玉玲：國小的部分，院長在上個會期承諾我了，叫德龍國小嘛？原來你們是要把德龍國小北遷到湧光路，跟祥安國小是重疊的校區，我們建議不要重疊校區，應該讓在地4個里的學生都可以在這邊就讀。所以本席當場就建議了，可以在聖亭路這個地方，或者是346巷這個地方，有兩個地方，還有美語村這個地方，都有兩個地方讓你選。到現在6個月過去了，選好了沒有？還是有更好、更適合的地方？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一部分科學園區管理局沒有意見，只要市政府……"],["呂委員玉玲：市政府也沒有意見啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：市政府協調好……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們兩個要去協調啊！這你們要確定。現在是由市政府確定，還是科管局確定？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然是市政府，因為這個要跟居民溝通，還有……"],["呂委員玉玲：好，請問年底以前可不可以開這兩場公聽會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要市政府同意的話，我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：同意什麼？同意這個校址出來嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們一定協助。"],["呂委員玉玲：校址不是最重要的問題！公聽會是要先徵收土地，116年就要土地徵收跟進行所有工程的進度。116年就要執行了，卻到現在還沒有公聽會，可不可以承諾我年底以前辦公聽會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們是要跟地方政府一起辦公聽會，因為……"],["呂委員玉玲：當然一起。院長，年底以前可不可以？"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要桃園市政府……"],["呂委員玉玲：你不要推給桃園市政府，他這邊沒有問題的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我聽起來是國科會跟桃園市政府之間的溝通還要再加強，我想這個如果能夠請委員也幫忙，看桃園市政府……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我說沒有問題，現在是看國科會，請科管局年底以前辦兩場，因為去（112）年就已經辦兩場了，這是沒有共識的；現在有共識，辦兩場是很快的。"],["卓院長榮泰：辦公聽會並不難，取得共識才最重要。"],["呂委員玉玲：已經取得共識了。我報告：已經取得共識了，就是有共識才等，從三、四月等到七、八月也沒有，有這麼難嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請主委跟委員瞭解之後，我們照這個方向來走。"],["呂委員玉玲：還是因為桃園大矽谷計畫？國發會還沒有送計畫到行政院去核准，所以你們要等著這個政績歸納到大矽谷計畫嗎？因為這個延宕而去等大矽谷計畫嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：如果沒有，就年底來辦公聽會啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們是朝這個方向在走，就是桃竹苗大矽谷……"],["呂委員玉玲：那就年底以前來舉辦公聽會。"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要市政府……"],["呂委員玉玲：沒問題，已經有共識。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，只要市政府……條件是這樣，市政府沒問題，我們就沒問題。好，謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：那就是年底辦兩場，好，謝謝。","接下來，我想請問的是SRF在桃園市的桃科已經有送計畫，二度被經濟部撤回處分。現在經濟部撤回了，桃園市政府也二度撤回了這個處分，產業也準備要提訴願。我不曉得院長、環境部長，還是次長，針對這件事情，你們了解嗎？先請教院長，你知道這整個過程嗎？為什麼有這個過程？"],["卓院長榮泰：最新的發展是今天環境部有對於SRF一些重要的關鍵……"],["呂委員玉玲：要更嚴苛的標準。中午開了記者會，市政府已經在三個月前就說，要更嚴苛的標準……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，但是不是能夠一致呢？"],["呂委員玉玲：但先決條件是已經被撤銷處分了，撤銷處分就沒有辦法入園了，沒有入園，更嚴苛的標準在哪裡呢？你要把因跟果搞清楚啊！部長，是不是？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，現在的程序是經濟部撤銷原來市政府否決它入園的處分，回到原點，市政府要重新審核，市政府又再度否准它入園……"],["呂委員玉玲：沒有再度否准，處分不行入園……"],["陳次長正祺：不行，否准就是……"],["呂委員玉玲：對，否決掉了。"],["陳次長正祺：那麼現在他們又提起訴願，訴願會的進行是程序面的問題。在實質面，經濟部還是鼓勵廠商遵守最嚴格的標準，跟桃園市政府好好討論來……"],["呂委員玉玲：我要提醒院長跟部長，二度被桃園市政府撤銷處分，前因是因為經濟部的推薦、護航、開後門，一定要讓這三家廠商進來桃科，現在桃園市政府跟人民站在一起，不要犧牲人民的健康，所以二度處分撤銷。彭部長要更嚴苛的標準，你去更嚴苛標準，這是符合標準的，嚴苛是應該的，但是我們不要讓它入園。我不讓它入園，就不用到嚴苛的標準。既然現在已經這樣子了，我看到市政府已經撤銷了。請問現在經濟部的態度是要再撤銷市政府的處分嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：因為業者依法提起訴願之後，就由訴願會來處理，訴願會是外部的學者專家組成，我們沒有主導力量，那麼現在這個是程序面。"],["呂委員玉玲：次長，5月13號，美國在台協會拜訪了前經濟部長王美花，針對這件事情非常關切，本席也特別去查了一下，這三家廠商當中，臺灣的立方能源由美國基礎建設投資基金持股百分之百，你們是不是受到美國的壓力？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，經濟部的政策……"],["呂委員玉玲：非要支持不可？"],["陳次長正祺：鼓勵循環經濟，而且我們要求廠商符合最高、最嚴苛的標準來處理臺灣的垃圾問題，這件事情經濟部並不是……"],["呂委員玉玲：地方政府有權嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：地方政府有職權。"],["呂委員玉玲：你尊重地方政府嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：要尊重由地方政府……"],["呂委員玉玲：尊重，為什麼撤銷它的處分？"],["陳次長正祺：因為地方政府當時撤銷的這個規定，跟它原來的入園標準不一樣……"],["呂委員玉玲：哪裡不一樣？"],["陳次長正祺：它用經濟部作為理由，這個不是當時地方政府做的……"],["呂委員玉玲：因為經濟部也撤回了它自己的推薦書啊！"],["陳次長正祺：事實上……"],["呂委員玉玲：它不要承擔責任啊！"],["陳次長正祺：不是……"],["呂委員玉玲：它撤銷、收回它的推薦書耶！"],["陳次長正祺：依照訴願會的決定，當時入園標準的規定就是由地方政府來核定，跟經濟部有沒有推薦其實是沒有關係的。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，地方政府就不要讓它入園了嘛！你剛剛講的啊，那你要不要尊重地方？地方審核過了，不要啊！所以院長，這個過程我相信你前面應該都有去了解了，後面的結果我也告訴你了，我不希望二度還有三度，這個惡性循環要叫我們所有觀音的鄉親用健康來做代價嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛次長講得清楚，我們尊重地方政府，但是民間的業者也有提起訴願的權利。"],["呂委員玉玲：它訴願來了，所以我請教，它的訴願來了，你是要跟民意、跟我們桃園鄉親站在一起，還是跟業者站在一起？你們是不是受到美國在台協會的壓力？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，絕對沒有，訴願的程序就讓它用訴願委員會的專業……"],["呂委員玉玲：因為次長剛剛說尊重地方政府，地方政府撤銷了，經濟部要再撤銷嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們尊重地方政府，但是也不能剝奪訴願的權利，就讓訴願委員會專業去處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以它的訴願，你們決定怎麼回？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在還……"],["呂委員玉玲：內容完全一樣，沒有更改。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是我們決定，是訴願委員會的專業處理、專業的決定。"],["呂委員玉玲：對啊！是。"],["卓院長榮泰：在這個時候，因為環境部提出了一套更嚴謹的標準，它也許作為參考，也許有用、也許沒用，也許有助於、也許沒有助於未來的決定，這個我們都讓訴願委員會的專業判斷去處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，所以我強調不要二度撤回，又來三度撤回，請你們聽聽民意、聽聽我們地方鄉親的聲音，不要讓我們為這個有污染的發電廠負擔身體的健康，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初應該是為了要處理垃圾的問題想到這個方式，那大家能不能接受，我們現在用一種比較客觀的方式……"],["呂委員玉玲：院長，你知道桃園的發電廠有幾座嗎？你知道桃園的發電廠有幾座、我們承擔了多少嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但這種循環經濟……"],["呂委員玉玲：循環經濟不能讓桃園人負擔啊……"],["卓院長榮泰：是一種新的概念。"],["呂委員玉玲：你不能讓桃園負擔啊！是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是，如果有嚴謹的方式，大家認為有重新討論的必要，我們並不排除……"],["呂委員玉玲：桃園擔負著各式各樣我們的整個基礎建設，是不是？所以請你跟民意站在一起。"],["卓院長榮泰：彭部長對於垃圾的處理是積極而用心的，大家應該看到他的……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實桃園有非常多露天裸露的垃圾山，我們也積極在解決，有關SRF，也建議大家可以看我們中午的記者會，我們有把它證明、也把它釐清。也報告委員，我前兩個禮拜在德國看到他們的SRF，就跟台積電一樣，沒有味道，沒有污染，而且是可以做更好的應用，解決我們所有的問題，所以我們也可以用另外一個角度好好來檢視這個SRF。如果我們是全世界最嚴格的標準，應該可以……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以還是要人民能接受，要人民能接受。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["彭部長啓明：要人民可以接受。"],["呂委員玉玲：不要造成民怨，民眾的健康是非常重要的。","好，接下來，院長，我們一直在講電價的問題，台電增資補償已經到5,000億了，現在我們的電價審議委員會在9月底就要來開了，今天沒有開，禮拜一也要開了。我特別去了解，電價審議委員會有17位委員，代表我們政府的有8席，代表工商跟消費者的有3席，有6席是專家學者，所以政府的態度就是關鍵，工商界當然不願意漲價嘛，所以3席當然是反對的，所以政府態度是怎麼樣？如果這8席跟我們工商、消費者站在一起的話，11席對這6席，你說這個審議委員會的結果會是什麼呢？所以關鍵在行政院卓院長的指示了。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的分析，這外部委員已經明顯超過政府內部的委員，所以應該是讓他們去討論。"],["呂委員玉玲：我剛剛告訴你啦，6席專家而已啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說外部委員已經超過政府內部的委員，所以讓他們……"],["呂委員玉玲：是17席嗎？有錯嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯啊，沒有錯。"],["呂委員玉玲：17席沒錯啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是外部的委員超過……"],["呂委員玉玲：代表政府是8席，工商跟消費者3席，6席是專家學者，所以政府的態度是非常關鍵的，如果政府要漲價就漲價了，這是政府的態度啊！你不要不承擔漲價的問題，而推給電價審議委員會，甩鍋讓他們去背。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是制度的結果，我們設立……"],["呂委員玉玲：制度，所以我說政府的代表8席……"],["卓院長榮泰：設立電價審議委員會……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們8席是什麼態度嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是在討論當中，會議進行當中，他們去討論態度。之前在這個地方我也說過，民生用電的穩定關係到整個物價跟民生生活的需要，我是希望不要再增加國人民生、生活的負擔，我只能表達我希望這個樣子，但還是要電價審議委員會的委員當時討論的時候，可能……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們知道台電也提出來了，台電的員工真的很辛苦耶！斤斤計較又風吹日曬，但是決策者在上面，決策者在上面啊！你們說電價要漲就漲，也不告訴我們原因，為什麼要漲？國際原物料上漲就跟著漲嗎？那為什麼國際原物料會上漲？因為我們的火力發電占了八成，為基載的主要發電……"],["卓院長榮泰：國際因素影響很大，戰爭的因素影響很大。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以是不是我們的能源政策有問題、能源的配比有問題？為什麼不去討論、改善？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，剛剛我們談到……"],["呂委員玉玲：有沒有其他替代能源，可以讓我們的發電成本降低？"],["卓院長榮泰：科學園區多少國際大廠來臺灣都是要用綠電，這是國際趨勢，我們如果沒有全力發展綠電，會跟這個世界潮流接不上……"],["呂委員玉玲：我沒有不贊成發展綠電，我支持發展綠電！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們的能源政策沒有問題。"],["呂委員玉玲：是啊，是啊，但你現在八成是用火力耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的能源政策……其中一大半是用燃氣發電。"],["呂委員玉玲：對啊，所以我說有替代能源的配比，我們要不要來開個國是論壇，共同討論、解決臺灣未來能源的問題？這才是正事，不要造成民怨，但一直都沒有討論耶！我們一直喊說台電受不了了，台電也提出不漲民生用電，而工業用電漲14%，這個你支持嗎？院長支持嗎？台電提出來啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這就要讓電價審議委員會去討論，我們在這裡講多了有所不宜。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以院長你一直都不敢承擔，就甩鍋給電價審議委員會，8席是政府代表啊！關鍵在這8席，你為什麼不解決問題呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：但這個機制我還是要尊重啊！"],["呂委員玉玲：當然尊重，所以聽我們的指示嘛！8席政府代表啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有研析過整個內容……"],["呂委員玉玲：要承擔，包括我們的賴清德總統跟院長，你們都要承擔啦！"],[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有請我們的院長和衛福部部長"},{"start":29.707,"end":55.193,"text":"麻煩再請左院長備詢請衛福部編委員好院長好從院長的上週的施政報告當中可以看到有非常多的兒少的相關政策顯示中央對兒少的重視那兒少議題一直也是我關心的所以今天有想跟院長討論兩個議題"},{"start":56.772,"end":83.153,"text":"一個是兒少領域工作人員的薪資跟兒少的網絡安全那院長首先想問您支持同工同酬嗎同工同酬當然是一個最基本的條件我想也是因為我相信同工要同酬事實上是普世價值也是勞動部近這幾年來去推動的職場文化但在我過去工作的領域裡邊的兒少領域"},{"start":83.7,"end":84.98,"text":"施政委員：林月琴"},{"start":106.46,"end":106.76,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":136.74,"end":163.246,"text":"防事輔導員的專業背景有社工系跟幼保系那很多時候這是在現場是我的學生那過去我在民間一直在爭取所以不知道因為在這裡我不知道可不可能就想說提出一個訴求因為他們工作一樣是辛苦防事輔導員能不能他的薪酬可以調整到跟社工夥伴是一樣的 院長"},{"start":164.258,"end":180.59,"text":"再請部長回答 但是訪視﹚輔導員目前是不是已經在3萬7甚至到4萬2出頭的這個範圍當中跟社工訪視員的起薪是相符的目前事實上是他們拿到的是3萬4報告委員 那個"},{"start":187.944,"end":188.364,"text":"我相信齁 過去在蔡"},{"start":217.669,"end":227.861,"text":"蔡英文總統任內到賴總統我相信都會非常照顧基層當然我們還是期待能夠調整到一致不會有很多差異"},{"start":229.783,"end":251.34,"text":"是的因為有這樣的差異所以我們行政院也支持我們在部裡面針對我們的一個督導跟訪視員從113年10月1號期來提高他的薪資在督導方面我們提高到4.1萬元至4.6萬元原來大概原來是3.8萬元至4.3萬元"},{"start":257.042,"end":268.509,"text":"那以社工的督導起薪4萬4千多是差異不大那在仿事輔導員方面我們提高到3.7萬元至4.2萬元原來是3.4萬至3.9萬所以這個以社工的仿事員3萬7、8這樣的是非常相近"},{"start":278.58,"end":279.801,"text":"年齡當然是一直往下降"},{"start":304.531,"end":307.453,"text":"小朋友第一次接觸網路5-10歲幼稚園階段就開始了"},{"start":324.98,"end":330.224,"text":"馬路有交通部交通局學校有教育部跟教育局可是網路世界看起來"},{"start":346.877,"end":346.937,"text":"網路成癮"},{"start":372.807,"end":373.047,"text":"李卓人"},{"start":390.88,"end":391.3,"text":"新相關的"},{"start":413.07,"end":424.138,"text":"的確就會是跟自殺風險有高度的相關我非常認同 院長一上來的時候8月份就實施了心理健康免費心理諮詢擴大到45歲這個事實上是現在"},{"start":427.981,"end":455.658,"text":"外界評價最高所以這次你在施政報告裡邊也說要把它提到56億我非常的贊成可是在網路安全當中我們除了後端的輔導以外可能要找到前端的原因所以接下來我們就來看這三個跟自殺比較高度相關的傷害首先在網路沉迷成癮這邊可以看到在沉迷12歲以下已經事實上是7%"},{"start":456.721,"end":457.682,"text":"請教一步說明一下謝謝委員關心網路成癮"},{"start":479.092,"end":487.237,"text":"對部長因為我們現在看到向衛福部他是用WHO的標準那將網路成癮視為一種精神疾病然後心理輔導那教育部的確也是用分級輔導方式處理不過"},{"start":507.449,"end":521.144,"text":"要問的是好像網路成癮成謎都是兒少的錯 如果你只做後端的輔導的話難道提供成癮平台提供成癮內容平台跟業者都沒有責任嗎"},{"start":522.449,"end":522.529,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":545.234,"end":571.292,"text":"提供平台的業者今天出現惡意的言論跟網路霸凌的話他們自己是否可以置身事外反而相較於在於最後跟自殺風險最高度相關的就是性相關的訊息外傳那從數據顯示一樣是逐年升高不過看到一線曙光就是我們去年性剝削法修法之後"},{"start":571.932,"end":589.927,"text":"的確我們設立了專責單位也加速了下架流程也請警政署成立資料庫未來進行主動比對找出潛在的受害者所以整體來看的話我們大概先有三個樣態第一個就是我們看起來只處罰所謂的行為人"},{"start":592.458,"end":617.631,"text":"目前我們的做法都是處理行為人或是輔導受害者那為什麼平台可以賺取大量的商業利益的時候卻不需要負擔市警預防的責任第二個目前在沒有專法的管理下發生各種狀況都是回到個別的法律處理這個緩不及急那第三我們的兒少網路問題今天不是第一天發生"},{"start":619.158,"end":647.203,"text":"可是我們很遺憾的目前臺灣有速發部還有NCC也有衛福部的保護師可是一個做產業發展一個做所謂的申訴一個在做處罰各做各的沒有專責的統籌單位我覺得很可惜所以院長是不是針對這三種的網路風險跟我目前管理上的肉洞不知道你有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":647.999,"end":674.086,"text":"報告委員為了防止兒少接觸這些不當的網路我們的NCC通傳會一個民間的團體有組織了一個內容防護的機構那希望能夠讓福島的網路業者自律提供防護機制但我覺得自律應該還是不夠的我們還要很多的機制加起來包括我們這些傳播的業者所以請教育部談論一下他最近跟那些傳播業者有一些進展"},{"start":674.666,"end":700.239,"text":"謝謝委員關心確實我們對於看到這個學生青少年兒少在這個非在學校的一個時間在私下或是在家庭的休假的時候那許多的這個社群的這些的網址確實他們會很容易收到一些相關的社群資料所以我們教育部目前正在洽細這個三大這個電信系統"},{"start":703.5,"end":725.258,"text":"中華電跟台灣大哥還有演傳因為我們現在看到許多父母親他們主要是這三大消費者他們同時買了一些手機年齡往下的趨勢所有這些父前的父母親我們希望透過行求父母親的同業跟業者"},{"start":726.051,"end":744.36,"text":"這一個能夠洽談希望能夠包裹式的能夠禁止這些社群網站的一個在兒童青少年的一個提這個使用在網路上的這些應該把它排除也就是說因為現在三大業者裡邊基本上也有一個社群的守門員這樣一個條款"},{"start":746.243,"end":770.666,"text":"看起來還是針對於事實上要要求家長的這個針對管理上這三個漏洞並不是沒有解方像第一個第二個漏洞有關平台的責任有國際經驗事實上是可以參考的像美國他們已經有在今年的7月已經通過了防止成癮性內容的剝削兒童法"},{"start":772.57,"end":796.213,"text":"規範了有成癮性的演算法而且避免深夜推播內容來影響睡眠甚至明定罰款那在去年呢英國也通過了所謂的網路安全法那他同時也是規範業者應該履行的職責而且要求業者對於有這樣的傷害的內容要及時刪除一樣明定罰款所以"},{"start":797.554,"end":816.22,"text":"第三個漏洞就是我們需要努力改善的因為網路上的而少可能遭受到風險跟傷害要進行管理我們台灣不是獨創因為我們在2014年的時候已經是把兒權公約國內法化那所以我們有責任來履行這個義務責任"},{"start":817.5,"end":843.353,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":843.82,"end":872.507,"text":"我相信你應該很熟悉因為其實就是現在行政院正在做的權力執行打詐計畫所以院長你同意嗎是 所以是我們的目的世界主管機關主管的機關對於這些平台業者現在有比較新的法律工具在手所以對這些不法的網站如果經過檢舉他還不處理的話目前我們的速發部是可以請業者依照這個法規要求他限制瀏覽移除"},{"start":873.672,"end":890.648,"text":"是他的廣告部分要求他在24小時裡面下架這個我就說的自律不夠還要有比較強而有力的法律的要求所以今天最後有兩個情託就希望院長可以試試看你9月16的時候我就看見書發部公告了一打詐專法來納管平台"},{"start":891.969,"end":915.394,"text":"而且未來有詐騙廣告的話可以依法24小時要下架那這真的是了不起的第一步那台灣終於對於我們的科技巨頭有了明確的規範而且不是等待他們自律或放任出了事態檢討而且這次的編列預算我相信院長有決心才會在沒宣要編這麼多經費因為打詐的確是我們國人"},{"start":916.24,"end":918.962,"text":"所以最後就是希望台灣是一個法治國家還是希望能夠針對於法律能夠"},{"start":952.648,"end":952.961,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:48:34 - 16:04:26","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"154925","gazette":{"lineno":436,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（15時48分）主席，有請我們的院長和衛福部部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢、請衛福部。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：院長好。從院長上週的施政報告當中可以看到有非常多兒少相關政策，顯示中央對兒少的重視，兒少議題也一直是我關心的，所以今天想跟院長討論兩個議題，一個是兒少領域工作人員的薪資跟兒少的網路安全。","院長，首先想問您支持同工同酬嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：同工同酬當然是一個最基本的條件。"],["林委員月琴：好，我想也是，因為我相信同工要同酬事實上是普世價值，也是勞動部近幾年來去推動的職場文化。但在我過去工作領域的兒少領域卻有很顯著的落差，他們的薪水很多時候是來自我們政府部門的發放，像社工跟訪視輔導員所執行的工作內容幾乎是一樣的，可是看起來他們的薪資所得事實上有非常大的差距，從這個表格當中可以看到102年，雖然兩個都一樣，都是三萬三，可是社工是實領三萬三，而訪視輔導人員呢？他是含雇主的勞健保跟6%的勞退，實領事實上是兩萬八。好不容易訪視人員在107年改制，領到三萬三的時候，社工已經調整到三萬四，到113年已經進入三萬四的時候，社工已經調到3萬7,765元了。訪視輔導員的專業背景有社工系跟幼保系，很多在現場的是我的學生，過去我在民間一直在爭取，在這裡我不知道可不可能，想提出一個訴求，因為他們工作一樣，一樣是辛苦，訪視輔導員的薪酬能不能調整到跟社工夥伴是一樣的，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：再請部長回答，但是訪視輔導員目前是不是已經在三萬七，甚至到四萬二出頭的這個範圍當中，跟社工訪視員的起薪是相符的？再請部長……"],["林委員月琴：目前事實上他們拿到的是三萬四。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，其實社工的工作當然是比較多元化，但是訪視輔導人員的壓力也是相當地大，所以在同工同酬的情況之下，我想我們當然也期待薪水能夠一致，在這個部分，有關於工作同仁的福利、待遇，行政院一直都給我們最大的支持。"],["林委員月琴：過去在蔡英文總統任內，到賴總統，我相信都會非常照顧基層，當然我們還是期待能夠調整到一致，不會有很多差異。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，因為有這樣的差異，所以行政院也支持我們在部裡面，針對督導跟訪視員，從113年10月1日起提高薪資。在督導方面，我們提高到4.1萬元至4.6萬元，原來是3.8萬元至4.3萬元，與社工的督導起薪四萬四千多差異不大。在訪視輔導員方面，我們提高到3.7萬元至4.2萬元，原來是3.4萬至3.9萬，所以這個與社工的訪視員三萬七、三萬八這樣的薪資非常相近。"],["林委員月琴：我代表這一群真的跟社工一樣辛苦的人，也謝謝院長能夠體恤到他們的辛苦。"],["邱部長泰源：我們非常感謝行政院在一方面給我們最大的支持。"],["林委員月琴：第二個議題就要來問，到底孩子在網路上安全嗎？院長知不知道我們小朋友第一次接觸網路的年齡是幾歲，還有他每天在網路上的時間有多少小時？"],["卓院長榮泰：年齡當然是一直往下降，至於時間，如果在家裡，家長沒有特別關注的時候，或者連在學校，有自由的時間，時間也一直在拉長，這對他的身心健康都不是好事情。"],["林委員月琴：對，所以從iWIN的數據當中，我們可以看到小朋友第一次接觸網路，事實上5到10歲，大概是幼稚園階段就開始了，平均一天大概8.3小時，看起來兒少不是只有使用網路，他是生活在網路。可是要問的是，這樣的環境安全嗎？現在事實上沒有專責單位在管，馬路有交通部、交通局，學校有教育部跟教育局，可是網路世界看起來像是烏托邦，沒有專責單位在管理，所以我不禁要問，到底安全嗎？因為網路世界當中，兒少遭遇的風險比我們想像得更多、更複雜，像網路成癮或沉迷、霸凌跟不實訊息，網路焦慮正對我們兒少的健康產生不同程度的傷害。院長，你怎麼看這個議題？"],["卓院長榮泰：網路成癮這個會造成他不僅跟外界人跟人之間的疏離，對自己的身心，包括眼睛、視力的影響很大，另外很可怕的是網路的霸凌，對他的心理造成的影響可能是很長時間無法磨滅的，至於其他的那些是違法的行為，我覺得我們的相關機關應該要全力遏止這個事情。"],["林委員月琴：我相信院長有很多的掌握，像這份研究是來自臺灣幾位優秀醫生，以臺灣的兒少為研究對象進行觀察，從研究結果大家就知道，性相關的訊息外傳跟成癮跟網路霸凌，的確會跟自殺風險高度相關。我非常認同院長一上來的時候，8月份就實施了心理健康免費心理諮詢擴大到45歲，這個事實上是現在外界評價最高的，所以這次你在施政報告裡面也說要把它提到56億，我非常地贊成。可是在網路安全當中，我們除了後端的輔導以外，可能也要找到前端的原因，所以接下來我們就來看這3個跟自殺比較高度相關的傷害。首先，在網路沈迷、成癮這邊可以看到，在沈迷的部分，12歲以下事實上已經是7%，12歲到17歲已經到9.6%；那成癮的話，事實上是3%。院長，你知道面對成癮、沈迷，我們的各部會怎麼做嗎？做了什麼事？"],["卓院長榮泰：請教育部說明一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心網路成癮，確實現在在學校裡面，我們也要求各地方政府在學校的輔導工作，把網路成癮跟網路霸凌相關的這些不當行為，當作我們心輔、學生輔導的一個主要工作項目。"],["林委員月琴：對，部長，因為我們現在看到像衛福部，它是用WHO的標準，將網路成癮視為一種精神疾病，然後心理輔導。教育部的確也是用分級輔導的方式處理，不過要問的是，好像網路成癮、沈迷都是兒少的錯，如果你只做後端輔導的話，難道提供成癮內容的平台跟業者都沒有責任嗎？一樣的，網路霸凌這個傷害也是逐年升高，這些數據背後不是只有心理傷害，最大的問題可能會有中輟跟逃學的問題，可是一樣的就是說，政府部門現在……像這邊看到的，大概還是幾個法律來查辦或者是輔導。同樣的，我還是有一樣的疑問，提供平台的業者，今天出現惡意的言論跟網路霸凌的話，他們自己是否可以置身事外？反而相較於最後跟自殺風險最高度相關的，就是性相關的訊息外傳，從數據顯示一樣是逐年升高，不過看到一線曙光，我們去年性剝削法修法之後，的確我們設立了專責單位，也加速了下架流程，也請警政署成立資料庫，會主動比對找出潛在的受害者。","所以整體來看的話，我們大概現在有三個樣態，第一個就是我們看起來只處罰所謂的行為人，目前我們的作法都是處理行為人或是輔導受害者，那為什麼平台可以賺取大量的商業利益，卻不需要負擔示警預防的責任？第二個，目前在沒有專法的管理下，發生各種狀況都是回到個別的法律處理，這個緩不濟急。第三，我們的兒少網路問題今天不是第一天發生，可是很遺憾的，目前臺灣有數發部，還有NCC，也有衛福部的保護司，可是一個做產業發展，一個做所謂的申訴，一個在做處罰，各做各的，沒有專責的統籌單位，我覺得很可惜。院長是不是針對這三種網路風險跟我們目前管理上的漏洞，不知道你有什麼樣的看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，為了防止兒少接觸這些不當的網路，我們的通傳會（NCC）也跟民間的團體組織了一個內容防護的機構，希望能夠讓輔導的網路業者自律，提供防護機制，但我覺得自律應該還是不夠的，我們還要很多的機制加起來，包括我們這些傳播的業者。請教育部談論一下，他最近跟一些傳播業者有一些進展。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，確實我們看到學生、青少年、兒少非在學校的時間，私下或者在家庭休假的時候，面對許多色情的網址，他們確實很容易收到一些相關的色情資料，所以我們教育部目前正在洽繫三大電信系統，也就是中華電信、台灣大哥大，還有遠傳，因為我們現在看到許多父母親，他們主要是這三大業者的消費者，同時也買了一些手機，年齡也有往下的趨勢，對於所有這些付錢的父母親，我們透過尋求父母親的同意，也跟業者洽談，希望能夠包裹式地禁止這些兒童、青少年使用色情網站，應該把他排除。也就是說，因為現在在三大業者裡，基本上也有色情守門員這樣的一個條款……"],["林委員月琴：看起來還是針對……事實上還是要要求家長的……針對管理上這三個漏洞並不是沒有解方，像第一個、第二個漏洞，有關平台的責任，國際經驗事實上是可以參考的，像美國已經在今年7月通過了防止成癮性內容的剝削兒童法，規範了有成癮性的演算法，而且避免深夜推播內容來影響睡眠，甚至明定罰鍰；去年英國也通過了所謂的網路安全法，它同時也規範業者應該履行的職責，而且要求業者對於有這樣傷害的內容要即時刪除，一樣有明定罰鍰。","第三個漏洞就是我們需要努力改善的，因為網路上兒少可能遭受到的風險跟傷害要進行管理。我們臺灣不是獨創，因為我們在2014年的時候已經把兒權公約國內法化，所以我們有責任來履行這個義務，責任。兒權公約第25號意見書本來就希望……我們如果是兒權公約國家的話，應該要有個專責的單位，它說要有一個專責的政府單位，而這個專責的政府單位要跟學校、資通訊部門合作，所以也希望院長在納管平台即時下架跟國家級的教育政策……，我相信你應該很熟悉，因為這其實就是現在行政院正在做的，全力執行打詐計畫，所以院長同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我們的目的事業主管機關對於這些平台業者，現在有比較新的法律工具在手，對於這些不法的網站，如果經過檢舉它還不處理的話，目前我們數發部可以請業者依照這個法規，要求它限制瀏覽、移除，甚至在廣告的部分，要求要在24小時裡面下架，這就是我說的自律不夠，還要有比較強而有力的法律要求。"],["林委員月琴：對，所以今天最後我有兩個請託就是希望院長可以思考，在9月16日的時候我就看見數發部的公告了，依打詐專法來納管平台。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員月琴：而且未來有詐騙廣告的話，可以依法在24小時內下架，這真的是了不起的第一步，臺灣終於對於我們的科技巨頭有了明確的規範，而且不是等待他們自律或放任出了事才檢討。這次編列的預算，我相信院長有決心才會在媒宣編這麼多經費，因為打詐的確是我們國人很大的痛。也就是說，今天詐騙事實上是國人的問題，所以編了這樣的經費、預算，就是你有要打詐的決心。院長可不可以同意比照打詐，內容平台應該納管，然後明定主管機關？這是我的第一個訴求。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，在打詐的新法當中，我們會把這些納進去，因為我們對平台業者有比較強而有力的拘束力。"],["林委員月琴：最後就是，臺灣是個法治國家，還是希望能夠針對法律立專法。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["林委員月琴：院長，未來我還是希望我們一起來做孩子最有力的後盾，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，我們現在休息10分鐘，休息之後我們繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（16時4分）","繼續開會（16時15分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","陳雪生","吳春城","林俊憲","萬美玲","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","林月琴","呂玉玲","王正旭","丁學忠"],"page_start":21,"meetingDate":["2024-09-27"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00002","1137601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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翁曉玲好是 院長好您上任至今已經超過4個月了那麼以您過去豐富的政治經驗然後曾經擔任郭立法委員然後行政院秘書長然後民進黨主席我相信您應該能夠深刻的瞭解一句話就是國家要進步不能夠走回頭路大家要團結一致向前走"},{"start":81.114,"end":102.201,"text":"非常贊成這也是賴清德總統在選前的時候曾經說過的一段話那我也非常認同不過就是我看您這四個月來的表現卻讓我觀察到您怎麼好像像是在走20年前的陳水扁當時擔任總統朝小野大的時代那麼這個行政機關是帶頭這個行使抵抗權"},{"start":106.343,"end":115.36,"text":"反國會搞杯葛進行權力的對抗行政機關依法行政難道不是法治國的基本原則嗎您認同嗎"},{"start":116.946,"end":118.708,"text":"我希望卓院長您能夠真的尊重依法行政很重要的民主法治國家的原則"},{"start":142.85,"end":170.745,"text":"如果連全國最高的中央行政機關 行政院都能夠帶頭搞對抗然後把法律踩在腳底下是法律於無物的話那麼台灣還是法治國嗎我想可能就要成為獨裁國家了絕沒有這樣的做法而且依法行政是我心中最大的一個依序院長請問您知道為什麼這次立法院要退回中央政府總預算"},{"start":172.205,"end":197.947,"text":"我們彼此的溝通還尚待加強其實本期認為這個最主要的原因也是跟我剛剛講的一樣就是我們觀察到其實行政院尤其是您上任之後根本就是把立法院當空氣然後把國會所做的一些決議當成耳邊風那在這樣的一個情況之下立法院所做的修法和決議您完全不理會也不願意遵守"},{"start":198.507,"end":198.867,"text":"國會改革法案"},{"start":220.765,"end":231.427,"text":"又不遵守我們通過的NCC組織法要求現任的NCC委員不可以再繼續留任仍然執意讓翁伯中副主委繼續代理主委"},{"start":232.359,"end":256.673,"text":"同時你也不依據新修正過的原住民進法補償條例去編足足夠的補償經費你也不甩立法院所做的各項決議包含像是調高公糧收購價格、調高健保點值以及電價動漲的決議還有要解除開放赴大陸的旅行團"},{"start":258.091,"end":269.43,"text":"那麼簡單來說就是行政院你該依法辦理的你不辦理你該編列預算的你不去編列預算這種態度在我們看來就是藐視立法權"},{"start":272.093,"end":299.64,"text":"是名譽無誤您口口聲聲說您要尋求溝通協調但是在我們的看到您現在的作為其實就是擺爛就是搞對立反正這個你們不重編這個行政院的預算我們看起來立法院也耐你們也無法這個對你們有什麼樣的其他的一個作為這樣子一個情況之下其實我真的感到非常的感慨"},{"start":302.14,"end":328.569,"text":"委員對我們的誤會頗深我如果當不尊重不尊重立法院的話那今天我們的對話我站在這裡好好的聆聽就是完全的尊重立法院執行刑事法我們看到就是院長您到底有沒有尊重我們立法院所通過修正的法律我剛剛所講的那些例子有哪一個是錯的有哪一個是假訊息不是這都是"},{"start":330.169,"end":353.232,"text":"立法院執權刑事法就是最近很多委員在講的 院紀分立行政立法司法監察的院紀分立 我們要嚴守是的 你的院紀分立可是必須要尊重的我只有三個原則 第一個就是讓機關正常運作第二個是快速審查第三個我會依法行政立法院所通過的NCC組織法"},{"start":353.652,"end":362.96,"text":"為的是讓機關能夠正常運作也登請大院能夠審查人事權之後我們一定依法行政我們無非就是希望你們能夠重新編列合理的預算能夠考察民意體諒民間的疾苦不要把錢"},{"start":382.856,"end":383.837,"text":"委員應該知道原因為什麼會這麼高"},{"start":400.843,"end":419.482,"text":"委員知道預算為什麼會這麼高對我沒有請您回答我現在講就是說如果行政院你繼續把立法院當空氣那麼立法院也不會對你客氣最後呢國家搞的這個烏煙瘴氣民眾一肚子氣坦白說賴政府也占不到便宜喔"},{"start":420.043,"end":420.583,"text":"中央政府公務預算編列約15億元"},{"start":442.754,"end":461.535,"text":"的業務宣導費用比去年113年的法定預算多了9億增高的幅度是65%那麼如果說我們再把其他的營業非營業基金還有公務預算的所有的媒體宣傳經費加起來已經超過了27億"},{"start":464.352,"end":492.989,"text":"在中間我們仔細的去調查研究也發現有5個部會機關每年編的宣傳費用高達上億這包含內政部衛福部經濟部勞動部和農業部這5個部會機關每年都編了上億元的媒體宣傳費用如果說把這5個機關的媒體宣傳費用加起來是佔整個中央政府的業務的宣傳費用的一半以上"},{"start":496.317,"end":516.935,"text":"請問 院長我們的政府有必要去花這麼多的錢做宣傳廣告嗎政府必要把自己國家政府的政策充分清楚地向人民說清楚所以你們自己說不清楚非得要請媒體來幫你們說清楚我們是請媒體轉述政府政策的說明自己一定要說清楚好 我要再講就是說其實呢 這個國際"},{"start":519.237,"end":520.337,"text":"臺灣的新聞自由度是有進步﹚可是報告當中也指出﹚"},{"start":541.783,"end":543.344,"text":"請問院長您知道為什麼我們的民眾不相信媒體"},{"start":570.064,"end":586.92,"text":"委員應該跟我們一起面對假訊息之何來我們受到的假訊息的攻擊從何而來最多我們應該找到那個源頭如果委員能夠跟我們一起的話就會知道問題之所在我要告訴你我確實是找到了這個假新聞傳播的源頭"},{"start":587.941,"end":606.098,"text":"我必須告訴您以我自己是傳媒專業我也教這個相關傳播法律我發現這些假訊息的來源還有民眾為什麼不相信媒體最大的原因就是因為臺灣的政媒不分媒體政治化的情形非常嚴重尤其是民進黨政府這8年來"},{"start":607.259,"end":628.239,"text":"政府收買媒體大量的以發包業務宣傳廣告標案形式與新聞媒體進行錢權交易的問題非常嚴重媒體為了取得政府的標案不敢監督政府反而是討好政府為政府插支抹粉去掩護他們的錯誤政策和弊案"},{"start":628.759,"end":629.119,"text":"執政委員：翁曉玲"},{"start":647.069,"end":670.348,"text":"媒體最重要的原因那我也認為政府應該要負最大的責任我們來看看民進黨政府的這些這8年來到底這個業務宣傳廣告費用是給了哪些媒體那麼我們也自己做了一些調查也發現這8年來拿到媒體拿到政府標案最多的媒體就是民視三立"},{"start":671.633,"end":689.91,"text":"明氏得標28億三立是37億那相較於民進黨政府最討厭的中天呢這個簡直是天黨之別這相差大概六七倍之多所以在蔡政府八年執政底下其實這個宣傳費用宣傳標案集中在特定媒體"},{"start":691.415,"end":706.51,"text":"的這個身上這已經是一個不爭的事實同時呢也被媒體觀察基金會所認證我們看一下媒體觀察基金會他在2023年所公佈的衛星新聞頻道承接政府標案觀測報告當中"},{"start":707.831,"end":730.358,"text":"指出還是調查過去3年108年到111年的媒體新聞頻道曾接政府標案的狀況同樣的是指出三立跟林氏是拿到最多錢的媒體我想這就是民進黨政府養媒體最好的證據我不知道為什麼你們還好意思說黨政軍退出媒體"},{"start":731.567,"end":731.707,"text":"主席"},{"start":751.687,"end":758.373,"text":"委員也應該清楚 有一些假訊息的來源也是在特定的單位啊沒有特定的單位在製造假訊息啊"},{"start":762.881,"end":788.351,"text":"我要講的就是說如果說民進黨政府花這麼多的錢去做政策廣告做業務宣傳如果宣傳效果不錯那你就算了就情有可原可是我們來看看你們做的這些宣傳的執行成效就會發現其實效果真的很差首先想請問一下防務部部長"},{"start":789.676,"end":791.92,"text":"您知道有一款遊戲叫做臨時任務嗎不知道"},{"start":799.457,"end":819.811,"text":"法務部長 您知道嗎 有一款遊戲叫做 線上遊戲叫做臨時任務那我告訴你 這款臨時任務的線上遊戲 是你法務部調查局 112年度所做的當時是在LINE上面推出這樣子的一個遊戲 這個是屬於一個推理遊戲"},{"start":820.692,"end":841.24,"text":"雖然說看起來宣傳經費花的不多42萬但是我也必須講說只能按讚對這個遊戲按讚的次數只有25個讚坦白說我今天歐委員我大概過去我沒有當委員之前我有時候貼的一個什麼照片或是人家貼文可能都不止25個讚你們花了那麼多的"},{"start":842.04,"end":843.161,"text":"施法院案例"},{"start":863.853,"end":888.773,"text":"我在研究司法院的媒體宣傳業務的標案的時候又發現有一家業者叫非株影業公司他在110到113年每一年他都取得數項的標案他的總金額也是高達差不多3600多萬這家公司他做的影片有放在YT上面"},{"start":889.861,"end":892.862,"text":"說實在話這樣的宣傳效益請問院長跟部長你們能接受嗎好謝謝委員關於這種表達的方式以及他的這個內容跟他的"},{"start":919.947,"end":920.268,"text":"這就是我在講的"},{"start":937.625,"end":958.328,"text":"本席基本上也支持政府機關的業務是可以做適當的必要的合理的宣傳但是你錢要花在刀口上而且要有宣傳效果而不是花大錢去做了一些沒有意義而且又浪費錢沒有宣傳成效的這樣的一個業務宣導這是沒有意義的所以本席非常希望"},{"start":961.831,"end":981.646,"text":"行政院是不是可以在兩個月之內提出有關於機關的業務宣導標案的發包執行原則總是要把一些執行原則要定出來﹖如果它成效不彰了﹖然後其他年度還繼續給這樣的公司去得標﹖去承辦﹖這基本上是不合理的"},{"start":982.066,"end":996.327,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們必須強力檢討同學我要說一下最近外交部做了一支雙十國慶的影片 頗獲好評我們希望這個標準可以成為各位首長去學習模仿的一個成功的典範"},{"start":997.288,"end":1024.063,"text":"如果是這樣的情況的話當然本席是贊同的那另外我本席也要提醒我有看到很多的機關他們在編列媒體業務宣傳的經費都是為了要聘小編幫忙維運臉書我都不懂得這是在臉書貼文按讚回覆留言這不是各個機關都有新聞處公關室就可以做了為什麼還要再去委託給其他的外包公司去做這樣子的社群平台"},{"start":1025.104,"end":1042.557,"text":"委員這沒有道理現在因為進入到社群媒體時代所以這些社群平台他理論上他就是一個政府的資訊公開平台的延伸這是自己機關內部人力就可以做的事情真的不要去浪費人民大稅錢又再去委外去委員"},{"start":1043.305,"end":1068.614,"text":"委外有可能是要增加這個專業的表達另外就是公務人員在上班時間做這個事情難免會遭受到一些批評是啦卓院長您去看看您行政院的臉書有多少人次瀏覽啦有看多少按讚啦坦白說可能比您自己個人的臉書的粉絲專頁都還要少請委員都看一看行政院的臉書接下來呢我要講的就是"},{"start":1070.635,"end":1092.393,"text":"除了看到媒體宣傳預算機費之外我還觀察到了NCC的預算其實這些年大家都很關心NCC的預算編列的狀況特別是有關於訴訟費用的部分本期有看到在今年你們提出來的114年的NCC的訴訟費用裡面這次又編了801萬"},{"start":1095.049,"end":1099.072,"text":"那相對於我們想同樣是獨立機關的公平會所編列的運輸送費不好意思那個我這裡我認為翁博中沒有資格列席這次的這個會議"},{"start":1118.254,"end":1134.519,"text":"我要講的就是說相對於同樣是獨立機關的公平會你看看人家編列的預算費用每年的訴訟費用大概就是70幾萬那NCC的訴訟費用是公平會的8到10倍這樣合理嗎"},{"start":1136.425,"end":1136.605,"text":"委員徐旭"},{"start":1166.565,"end":1190.088,"text":"提告要提起行政訴訟去提告NCC委員妳在NCC是有經驗的 妳也是在NCC的業務非常的複雜在我的當院NCC委員的時候沒有這麼高的訴訟費用我NCC不需要去支付這麼多的訴訟費用去委託律師然後幫NCC去做辯護"},{"start":1192.476,"end":1221.476,"text":"呃我想院長應該知道所謂的民不與官鬥這句話坦白說臺灣的業者大部分都不會願意跟機關起衝突去提告可是為什麼廣電媒體業者會這麼積極的會這麼熱衷於提起行政訴訟我自己的個人觀察第一個就是NCC所做的這些行政處分的確業者感到不服氣裡面可能有很多這個明顯重大的違法的這個疑慮所以呢他想要不服他提起訴訟"},{"start":1222.516,"end":1241.236,"text":"第2個情況就是他的勝訴率很高反正我提告了勝訴之後我的罰金也不用交因為行政法院會把NCC的懲罰處分去撤回去撤銷所以事實證明NCC在過去的表現也是敗訴率很低"},{"start":1243.721,"end":1260.482,"text":"對不起他的敗訴率還蠻高的有超過一半所以在這樣的一個情況之下當然就是有很多的行政訴訟業者會提告我還觀察到另外一個有趣的現象"},{"start":1262.145,"end":1262.565,"text":"施政委員：翁曉玲"},{"start":1280.543,"end":1296.647,"text":"那我這邊我真的認為說NCC你如果說對於自己的處分這麼有信心的話不用去請律師啦自己內部就法務處這裡裡面的人去為NCC的處分做答辯就好了真的不要浪費人民的納稅錢去做那些"},{"start":1299.068,"end":1300.009,"text":"快速的審查"},{"start":1315.399,"end":1315.419,"text":"競選審查"},{"start":1335.333,"end":1356.451,"text":"報告委員我都用一次讓機關正常運作如果沒有多一位委員我們無法運作那麼我現在要講的就是說有關於這個大法官死刑大法官做出死刑有條件核限的這個議題那麼這次大法官做出這個裁判其實也引起"},{"start":1357.432,"end":1381.483,"text":"而社會的不滿雖然說大法官沒有宣告死刑是違憲的但是他設下了很多的條件重重的關卡門檻所以實質上已經也達成了這個實質廢死的目的那麼大法官立下這些條件其實不僅在社會上在法學界裡面其實都引起很多的討論那麼我想請問院長您是否認同大法官所說的"},{"start":1381.783,"end":1382.444,"text":"您認同這樣的看法嗎?"},{"start":1394.392,"end":1416.583,"text":"我也注意到一開始他講這個是有條件的合憲他設定了一些條件那這些條件我們可以在用未來修法的過程當中讓它符合但是我不覺得這樣就把它等同於是實質的廢死我們還是有執行死刑在社會上經過剛剛委員說那個條件之後是有其必要跟空間的時候還是要執行的"},{"start":1417.179,"end":1426.995,"text":"好 我想請問這個院長您知不知道這一次大法官做出死刑有條件的合憲判決有幾位大法官是贊成這項判決的"},{"start":1429.355,"end":1451.46,"text":"我知道有幾位是有不同的意見我告訴您這次的這個憲法法院的裁判大概我看起來就是有七位大法官是完全贊同這次的釋憲理由死刑有條件的核憲五位大法官分別提出了不同意見有一位大法官是完全的反對就是支持要廢死的那這樣的比數代表什麼意義"},{"start":1453.305,"end":1473.548,"text":"就是在討論的過程一定相當的意見分歧而且各有意見沒錯 院長您的觀察是對的就代表這份判決其實內容有高度的爭議所以不是裡面的內容是大部分有蠻多的大法官是反對的像這樣的憲法判決坦白說真的很難服眾"},{"start":1474.349,"end":1480.753,"text":"現在在研修已經有修正一些的就是依據那個宪判例子就那個監獄刑刑法及那個刑法的這部分我們做一個研修"},{"start":1497.16,"end":1498.121,"text":"對不起委員的意思是"},{"start":1521.82,"end":1547.189,"text":"就是我們立法院通過了一個與大法官異見不盡相同的法律你們會依照新法你們會適用新法嗎大法官的幾個條件都明列在解釋文裡面那至於說我們如果達到這些條件當然可以做一些在修法上的討論但終究我們還是要在這個社會共同標準底下不過"},{"start":1548.77,"end":1568.925,"text":"這麼說來好了立法院我們擁有立法權我必須要講守護憲法維持合憲秩序不是只是大法官的責任我們立法者也有相同的責任我們必須要在符合憲法意旨憲政秩序和國情文化以及要考量到實務的問題去進行一個合理的修法"},{"start":1569.565,"end":1593.791,"text":"所以特別是現在這次的大法官的裁判其實未來會對於基層的司法人員會造成更沉重的更多的工作量所以我們一定會要綜合評估各方面的狀況去進行修法那麼我必須要強調的是大法官的解釋未必能夠完全拘束立法院"},{"start":1594.551,"end":1618.898,"text":"更何況是這個憲法裁判有明顯高度的爭議恐怕未來也會影響司法事務的運作所以我們在這裡我作為一個立法委員我會很負責的我一定也會更切實際和尊重民意去進行相關的修法那我也希望我們修出來的法行政機關必須要依法行政"},{"start":1619.818,"end":1642.571,"text":"好那接下來我還要順著這個議題就是因為我們剛剛已經講了這個大法官過去這些年來做的憲法判決常常也會增加小法官的工作量的問題所以呢就是在很多法官論壇裡面常常就有這個司法人員聽到看到司法人員抱怨就大法官大筆一揮就累死基層小法官跟檢察官"},{"start":1643.251,"end":1670.184,"text":"那我想司法人力過勞的問題確實是很嚴重光是這半年來其實已經發生了陸陸續續有好多件不是檢察官法官或是警察的過勞而不幸生病或死亡的新聞請問這個院長跟部長你們有提了什麼樣的改建措施嗎跟委員報告我們本部都非常注意所屬的員工尤其是檢察官書記官檢視官等等的這些的"},{"start":1671.414,"end":1677.236,"text":"部長是這樣子 我也看了你們的預算書 司法院的預算書 法務部的預算書我現在看不出來你們有編列任何的預算是想要去改善"},{"start":1696.236,"end":1696.777,"text":"施法人力過勞問題"},{"start":1714.095,"end":1714.435,"text":"加班費的預算﹖"},{"start":1734.906,"end":1735.106,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":1756.503,"end":1781.986,"text":"應次去生出相關的加班經費所以這個部分的話我希望這個防務部和行政院院長你們未來都要檢討去通盤看一下大家編列加班費的狀況跟委員補充謝謝委員注意到加班費的一個問題那另外事實上我們希望能夠擴充的一些的人力比如說我們檢察官過來問題我們先有檢察官助理現在不要再講人力的部分我還要講就是你檢查事務官的"},{"start":1782.706,"end":1799.922,"text":"明明就還有缺額而且你檢查事務官外調到別的機關的情況很嚴重這個我是來不及講了我現在要講的就是說你加班費的問題是你們必須要解決的另外我要再提醒的就是我們現行的加班費的時薪計算方式是明顯有問題的"},{"start":1801.743,"end":1817.173,"text":"已經是他的計算方式我不知道是多久以來都沒有改變竟然是用我們的月薪除以240個小時然後算出那個時薪我們明明現在就是週休二日為什麼不是用8小時然後一個禮拜上5天班然後乘以這個4個禮拜"},{"start":1819.414,"end":1821.736,"text":"委員長 你應該同意我的看法吧提高加班費的時薪"},{"start":1847.571,"end":1848.292,"text":"謝謝翁曉玲委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:17:24 - 15:48:28","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"154924","gazette":{"lineno":313,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（15時17分）有請院長。"],["主席：跟院會報告，現在在我們議場二樓旁聽的是臺北市立聯合醫院的醫生朋友們，我們掌聲歡迎，歡迎大家來立法院。謝謝。","麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["翁委員曉玲：待會可能也要會請法務部部長……"],["主席：請勞動部長備詢。"],["翁委員曉玲：現在還不需要。"],["主席：法務部是現在上，還是等一下？現在備詢？"],["翁委員曉玲：要不然等一下好了。"],["主席：好，麻煩請兩位部長稍待。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：院長好。您上任至今已經超過四個月了，以您過去豐富的政治經驗，曾經擔任過立法委員、行政院秘書長、民進黨主席，我相信你應該能夠深刻了解一句話：國家要進步，不能夠走回頭路，大家要團結一致向前走………"],["卓院長榮泰：非常贊成。"],["翁委員曉玲：非常贊成？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：這也是賴清德總統在選前曾經說過的一段話，我也非常認同。不過看您這四個月來的表現，讓我觀察到您怎麼好像是在走20年前陳水扁擔任總統朝小野大的時代，行政機關帶頭行使抵抗權、反國會、搞杯葛，進行權力對抗？行政機關依法行政，難道不是法治國家的基本原則嗎？您認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：朝小野大是我們現在的政治生態，但我們不會用過去的思維跟作法，來跟現在的國會做任何對抗，所以我們不會……"],["翁委員曉玲：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：在這種對抗的過程當中，希望大家能得到更好的、互相的互動……"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，瞭解。"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣才是國家之幸。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我也很希望卓院長您能夠真的尊重依法行政這個很重要的民主法治國家的原則，如果連全國最高的中央行政機關行政院都能夠帶頭搞對抗，把法律踩在腳底下，視法律於無物的話，那麼臺灣還是法治國嗎？我想可能就要成為獨裁國家了！"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對沒有這樣的作法，而且依法行政是我心中最大的一個依循。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，接下來我想請教一下院長，請問您知道為什麼這次立法院要退回中央政府總預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們彼此的溝通還尚待加強。"],["翁委員曉玲：其實本席認為最主要的原因也是跟我剛剛講的一樣，就是我們觀察到行政院，尤其是您上任之後，根本就是把立法院當成空氣，把國會所做的一些決議當成耳邊風，在這樣的情況之下，立法院所做的修法和決議您完全不理會，也不願意遵守，那麼在我們的看法發現您眼中只有黨意，似乎沒有民意。","我們來看看在您的任內，卓內閣是如何不甩立法院的法案和決議的。首先，你杯葛國會改革法案，讓我們失去對行政機關監督的能力。其次，你又不遵守我們通過的NCC組織法，要求現任的NCC委員不可以再繼續留任，仍然執意讓翁柏宗副主委繼續代理主委。同時，你也不依據新修正過的原住民禁伐補償條例去編足夠的補償經費。你也不甩立法院所做的各項決議，包含像是調高公糧收購價格、調高健保點值以及電價凍漲的決議，還有要解除開放赴大陸的旅行團。簡單來說，就是行政院該依法辦理的你不辦理，該編列預算的你不去編列預算，這種態度在我們看來就是藐視立法權，視民意於無物。您口口聲聲說您要尋求溝通、協調，但是我們看到您現在的作為其實就是擺爛啊！就是搞對立！反正你們不重編行政院的預算，看起來立法院也無法對你們有什麼樣的其他作為，在這樣的情況下，其實我真的感到非常的感慨！"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，委員，我一句話，委員對我們的誤會頗深啦，我如果……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，因為我們是……"],["卓院長榮泰：我如果不尊重立法院的話，今天我們的對話，我站在這裡好好的聆聽就是完全的尊重，立法院職權行使法……"],["翁委員曉玲：對，因為我們也是聽其言觀其行，我們看到的就是院長您到底有沒有尊重我們立法院所通過修正的法律，我剛剛所講的那一些例子有哪一個是錯的？有哪一個是假訊息？不是，這都是……"],["卓院長榮泰：容我1分鐘解釋，立法院職權行使法，就是最近很多委員在講的院際分立，行政、立法、司法跟監察的院際分立我們要嚴守……"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，你的院際分立必須要尊重立法院……"],["卓院長榮泰：對NCC，我只有三個原則，第一個就是讓機關正常運作……"],["翁委員曉玲：好了，不用再說！因為就這個部分來說……"],["卓院長榮泰：第二個是快速審查，第三個是我會依法行政。"],["翁委員曉玲：很明顯的，就是我們立法院所通過的NCC組織法你就是不公布啊！你就可以投機取巧，然後擺爛就不公布啊！這個部分基本上已經違反了我們法律的通過……"],["卓院長榮泰：為的是讓機關可以正常運作……"],["翁委員曉玲：好了，接下來我想要再講的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：也敦請大院能夠審查人事權，之後我們一定依法行政。"],["翁委員曉玲：其實今天退回行政院的中央政府總預算，我們無非就是希望你們可以重新編列合理的預算，能夠考察民意，體諒民間的疾苦，不要把錢浪費在不應該花的地方。今年的中央政府總預算已經破歷史新高，已經高達3兆，如果說是……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該知道原因為什麼會這麼高。"],["翁委員曉玲：如果你們沒有把人民的錢用在刀口上，立法院做嚴格把關，這有什麼不對？我要講的就是……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該知道預算為什麼會這麼高。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，請聽我說完，我沒有請您回答。我現在要講的就是說，如果行政院繼續把立法院當空氣，那麼立法院也不會對你客氣，最後是國家搞得烏煙瘴氣，民眾一肚子氣，坦白說賴政府也占不到便宜。","接下來順著我們剛剛講的議題，我們來談談最近各界基本上非常關心政府機關編列的媒體宣傳經費的事情，其他委員其實也有談到，我在這邊還是要重新提醒，今年度中央政府的公務預算就編列了將近15億的業務宣導費用，比去年113年法定預算多了9億，增高的幅度是65%，如果我們再把其他營業、非營業基金還有公務預算的所有媒體宣傳經費加起來，已經超過了27億。這中間我們仔細的去調查研究也發現，有5個部會機關每年編列的宣傳費用高達上億，包含內政部、衛福部、經濟部、勞動部和農業部，這5個部會機關每年都編列上億元的媒體宣傳費用，如果把這5個機關的宣傳費用加起來，是占整個中央政府業務的宣傳費用的一半以上。請問院長，我們的政府有必要去花這麼多錢做宣傳廣告嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府必要把國家政府的政策充分、清楚的向人民說清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以你們自己說不清楚，非得要請媒體幫你說清楚嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是請媒體轉述政府政策的說明，自己一定要說清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我要再講的就是說，其實國際非政府組織──無國界記者組織發布2024年度新聞自由指數報告裡面顯示，臺灣的新聞自由度有進步，從第35名進步到第27名，可是報告當中也指出，臺灣觀眾看的媒體大多有政治立場，而且假訊息和假新聞充斥，臺灣媒體在民眾心目中，就是臺灣大眾對媒體信任度之低，是亞洲地區國家排名墊底的，是最後一名。針對這樣的情況，請問院長您知道為什麼我們的民眾不相信媒體？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該跟我們一起面對假訊息何來，我們受到假訊息的攻擊從何而來最多，我們應該找到那個源頭，如果委員能夠跟我們一起的話，就會知道問題之所在。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，院長，我要告訴您，我確實是找到了假新聞傳播的源頭。我必須告訴您，以我自己是傳媒專業，我也教相關傳播法律，我發現這些假訊息的來源，還有民眾為什麼不相信媒體，最大的原因就是因為臺灣的政媒不分，媒體政治化的情形非常嚴重。尤其是民進黨政府這8年來，政府收買媒體，大量的以發包業務宣傳廣告標案形式與新聞媒體進行錢權交易的問題非常嚴重，媒體為了取得政府的標案，不敢監督政府，反而是討好政府，為政府擦脂抹粉，去掩護他們的政策錯誤和弊案，幫著執政者去醜化其政敵，媒體不僅做不到平衡報導，而且還散播不實的訊息，這是政媒共生、媒體高度政治化情形所造成民眾之所以不信賴媒體最重要的原因，我也認為政府應該要負最大的責任。","我們來看看民進黨政府這8年來到底將業務宣傳廣告費用給了哪些媒體？我們自己做了一些調查研究發現，這8年來拿到政府標案最多的媒體就是民視、三立，民視得標28億，三立得標37億，相較於民進黨政府最討厭的中天，簡直是天壤之別，相差6、7倍之多！在蔡政府8年執政底下，宣傳費用的標案集中在特定媒體業者的身上已經是不爭的事實，同時也被媒體觀察基金會所認證。我們看一下媒體觀察基金會在2023年公布的衛星新聞頻道承接政府標案觀測報告，它是調查過去3年（108年到111年）媒體新聞頻道承接政府標案的狀況，同樣指出三立跟民視是拿到最多錢的媒體，我想這就是民進黨政府養媒體最好的證據，我不知道為什麼你們還好意思說黨政軍退出媒體！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的分析、邏輯跟指責，完全不是正確的資訊。"],["翁委員曉玲：我之後會把我的相關資料再提供給院長參考。有關於媒體宣傳經費集中在特定廠商，我們預算中心也做了報告研究，這個部分我們就不用再講了，但是接下來……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員也應該清楚，有些假訊息來源也是在特定的單位啊……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是我現在要講的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：也有特定的單位在製造假訊息啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：對不起，院長，請讓我詢問下一個問題。我要講的就是，如果民進黨政府花這麼多錢去做政策廣告、做業務宣傳，如果宣傳效果不錯也就算了，這情有可原，可是我們來看看你們做的這些宣傳的執行成效，就會發現其實效果真的很差。首先，想請問一下法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩請法務部長備詢。"],["翁委員曉玲：或是請問院長，您知道有一款遊戲叫做「零時任務」嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不知道。"],["翁委員曉玲：請問法務部長，您知道嗎？有一款線上遊戲叫做「零時任務」。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那我告訴您。這款「零時任務」的線上遊戲是法務部調查局112年度所做的，當時是在LINE上面推出這樣子的一個遊戲，這是屬於一個推理遊戲。雖然說看起來宣傳經費花得不多，42萬，但是我也必須講，結果對這個遊戲按「讚」的次數只有25個，坦白說，過去我沒有當委員之前，我有時候貼的一個什麼照片或是寫的貼文，可能都不只25個讚，你們花了那麼多的時間、金錢去委託做的這款遊戲，之前只有25個讚，我都不知道，連部長自己過去都沒有聽聞過這個「零時任務」的線上遊戲，各個地檢署還有調查局，他們都有去推廣這款遊戲，所以由此可見，宣傳效果有多差。我們再舉個司法院的案例，我在研究司法院的媒體宣傳業務的標案時也有發現，有一家業者叫「飛豬影業公司」，在110年到113年，每一年它都有取得數項標案，總金額也高達差不多三千六百多萬，這家公司做的影片有放在YT上面，讓我非常吃驚的地方就是，它的觀看次數真的是慘不忍睹，其中播放、觀看次數最多的一個影片叫做「勞工自願提繳退休金」的宣傳影片，它的觀看次數只有133次。說實在話，這樣的宣傳效益，請問院長跟部長，你們能接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。關於這種表達的方式，以及它的內容跟它表達出來的成效不彰，謝謝委員的提醒……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以我就講……"],["卓院長榮泰：各個部會首長都應該用這樣的標準來看看我們現在如何跟人民對話，透過正常的管道、透過正當的管道將意思清楚地表達出來，這是我們的要求。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，這就是我在講的，本席基本上也支持政府機關的業務可以做適當的、必要的、合理的宣傳，但是錢要花在刀口上，而且要有宣傳效果，而不是花大錢去做一些沒有意義而且又浪費錢，沒有宣傳成效的業務宣導，這是沒有意義的。所以，本席非常希望而且在此也要求，行政院是不是可以在兩個月之內就可以提出有關於機關的業務宣導標案的發包執行原則，總是要把一些執行原則訂出來嘛！如果它的成效不彰，然後下年度還繼續給這樣的公司去得標、去承辦，這基本上是不合理的，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒，我們必須強力檢討。同時我也要說一下，最近外交部做了一支雙十國慶的影片頗獲好評，我們希望這個標準……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，那我覺得如果是這樣的話就有意義。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個標準可以成為各部會首長去學習模仿的一個成功的典範。"],["翁委員曉玲：如果是這種情況的話，那當然本席是贊同的。另外，本席也要提醒，我有看到很多機關，他們編列媒體業務宣傳的經費都是為了要聘小編幫忙維運臉書，我都不懂得，在臉書貼文、按讚、回復留言，這不是各個機關都有的新聞處、公關室就可以做了，為什麼還要再去委託給其他的外包公司，去做這樣子的社群平臺的維運？而且也沒有道理嘛。現在因為進入到社群媒體時代，所以這些社群平臺，理論上它就是一個政府資訊公開平臺的延伸，這是機關自己內部人力就可以做的事情，真的不要浪費人民的納稅錢再去委外維運。"],["卓院長榮泰：委外有可能是要增加專業的表達，另外就是公務人員在上班時間做這個事情難免會遭受到一些批評。"],["翁委員曉玲：是啦！卓院長，您去看看行政院的臉書有多少人次瀏覽、有多少按讚，坦白說可能比您自己個人的臉書粉絲專頁都還要少。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員多看一看行政院的臉書。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個部分我想我們就談到這邊。","接下來，我要講的就是我除了看到媒體宣傳預算費用之外，我還觀察到了NCC的預算，其實這些年大家都很關心NCC預算編列的狀況，特別是有關於訴訟費用的部分。本席有看到今年你們提出來的114年NCC的訴訟費用裡面，這次又編了801萬，相對的從111年、112年、113年，其實它每年的訴訟費用都相當地高。相對於我們講同樣是獨立機關的公平會所編列的訴訟費……不好意思，我認為翁柏宗沒有資格列席這次的會議。我要講的就是相對於同樣是獨立機關的公平會，你看看人家每年編列的訴訟費用大概就是七十幾萬，NCC的訴訟費用是公平會的8到10倍，這樣合理嗎？這樣合理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員垂詢的我想NCC是獨立機關，一定有它業務的需要……"],["翁委員曉玲：我必須說真的是非常地誇張。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們代理主委不能說明的話，那我只能請他之後再跟委員說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：不用說明了，我覺得事實就已經證明了一切，對不對？公平會同樣都是獨立機關，人家的訴訟費用編列，預估業者會打官司的費用支出，可能只有七十幾萬，那為什麼NCC所做的處分會有這麼多的業者不服，為什麼要提告、要提起行政訴訟去告NCC？我想……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你在NCC是有經驗的，你也知道NCC的業務非常地複雜。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，所以我就要再講，在我當NCC委員的時候沒有這麼高的訴訟費用，NCC不需要支付這麼多的訴訟費用去委託律師，然後幫NCC辯護。","我想院長應該知道所謂的民不與官鬥這句話，坦白說臺灣的業者大部分都不會願意跟機關起衝突去提告，可是為什麼廣電媒體業者會這麼積極地、會這麼熱衷於提起行政訴訟？我自己的個人觀察，第一個就是NCC所做的這些行政處分的確讓業者感到不服氣，裡面可能有很多明顯重大違法的疑慮，所以它不服，想要提起訴訟。第二個情況就是它的勝訴率很高，反正我提告了、勝訴之後，我的罰金也不用繳，因為行政法院會把NCC裁罰的處分撤銷。事實證明NCC在過去的表現，它的敗訴率還滿高的，有超過一半，所以在這樣的情況之下，當然就是有很多的行政訴訟，業者會提告。","那麼我還觀察到另外一個有趣的現象，NCC在114年所編列的罰鍰收入是1,120萬，但是它的訴訟費用就是八百多萬，也就是說，它裁罰收入的七成都去支付訴訟費用，坦白說這也真的是很不合理喔！我真的認為NCC如果對於自己的處分這麼有信心的話，不用去請律師啦！自己內部就有法務處，裡面的人去為NCC的處分答辯就好了，真的不要浪費人民的納稅錢去幫NCC不適當、違法的處分再去打官司。所以從這件事情裡面就讓我真的感受到，審查NCC人事案這件事情是多麼地重要……"],["卓院長榮泰：而且是要快速地審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的……"],["卓院長榮泰：儘快審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：而且我們要選出不偏不倚、真正專業的好委員，像現在已經不適格、早就應該要離開NCC的委員，竟然還可以去當代理主委，這件事情其實是本席無法忍受的。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我的用意是讓機關正常運作……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，接下來……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果沒有多一位委員我們無法運作。"],["翁委員曉玲：不好意思，接下來因為時間的關係，怕不夠了。我現在要講的就是有關於大法官做出死刑有條件合憲的這個議題，這次大法官作出這個裁判，其實也引起社會的不滿，雖然說大法官沒有宣告死刑是違憲的，但是他設下了很多的條件、重重的關卡、門檻，所以實質上也已經達成了實質廢死的目的。","大法官立下這些條件，其實不僅在社會上、在法學界裡面，都引起很多的討論。我想請問院長，您是否認同大法官所說的，因為死刑是剝奪人民生命權，這個最重要的問題要採最高程度的保障，所以要求各級法院的法官都要一致決，您認同這樣的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也注意到一開始他講這個是有條件的合憲，他設定了一些條件，這些條件我們可以在未來修法的過程當中讓它符合，但是我不覺得這樣就把它等同於是實質的廢死，我們還是有執行死刑，在社會上，經過剛剛委員說的那個條件之後，有其必要跟空間的時候，還是要執行的。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我想請問院長，您知不知道這次大法官做出死刑有條件的合憲判決，有幾位大法官贊成這項判決？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道有幾位有不同的意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我告訴您，這次憲法法院的裁判，我看起來就是有7位大法官完全贊同這次的釋憲理由，死刑有條件的合憲，5位大法官分別提出了不同意見，有1位大法官是完全地反對，就是支持要廢死的，這樣的比數代表什麼意義？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是在討論的過程一定意見相當分歧，而且各有意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，沒錯，院長，您的觀察是對的，就代表這份判決其實內容有高度的爭議，所以不是……裡面的內容有滿多的大法官是反對的，像這樣的憲法判決，坦白說，真的很難服眾。您剛剛也講了，接下來行政院、法務部都會針對大法官裡面的裁判意旨進行修法，我想請問法務部現在有準備了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在在研修，已經有修正一些……"],["翁委員曉玲：準備修一些什麼內容？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是依據那個憲判例子，就監獄行刑法及刑法這部分，我們做研修。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我想請教，因為你們現在是提案，你們修法提案要經過立法院同意通過，當然我想我們立法委員這邊同樣也會提出相關的修法案，如果說我們最後修了一個、通過了一個與大法官意見不同的法律，請問院長、部長，你們要如何因應？你們會依法行政嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，委員的意思是？"],["翁委員曉玲：就是我們立法院通過了一個與大法官意見不盡相同的法律，你們會依照新法，你們會適用新法嗎？你們會依法行政嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：大法官的幾個條件都明列在解釋文裡面，至於說我們如果達到這些條件，當然可以做一些修法上的討論，但終究我們還是要在這個社會共同標準底下，不過……"],["翁委員曉玲：這麼說好了，我們立法院擁有立法權，我必須要講，守護憲法，維持合憲秩序，不只是大法官的責任，我們立法者也有相同的責任，我們必須符合憲法意旨、憲政秩序和國情、文化，以及考量到實務的問題去進行合理的修法，所以特別是這次大法官的裁判，其實未來對於基層的司法人力、人員會造成更沉重的、更多的工作量，所以我們一定要綜合評估各方面的狀況去進行修法。我必須要強調的是，大法官的解釋未必能夠完全拘束立法院，更何況這個憲法裁判有明顯、高度的爭議，恐怕未來也會影響司法實務的運作。所以我們在這裡，我作為一個立法委員，我會很負責的，也一定會更切實際及尊重民意去進行相關的修法，我也希望我們修出來的法，行政機關必須要依法行政。","接下來我還要順著這個議題，因為我們剛剛已經講了，大法官過去這些年來做的憲法判決，常常也會有增加小法官工作量的問題，所以在很多法官論壇裡面，常常會聽到、看到司法人員抱怨，大法官大筆一揮就累死基層小法官跟檢察官。我想司法人力過勞的問題確實是很嚴重，光是這半年來，其實已經陸陸續續發生了好多件檢察官、法官或是警察過勞而不幸生病或死亡的新聞。請問院長跟部長，你們有提了什麼樣的改進措施嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，本部都非常注意所屬的員工，尤其是檢察官、書記官、檢事官等等的過勞問題，所以在這部分我們有就人道關懷做一些關心。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外，最主要我們還是要做減工作的調整跟減量。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，部長，是這樣子，我也看了你們的預算書，包括司法院的預算書、法務部的預算書，我現在看不出你們有編列任何預算是想要去改善司法人力過勞的問題。我們看看嘛！司法院跟法務部編的加班費逐年提高，一年比一年高，我們就隨便找幾個地檢署所編的加班費預算，不僅是預算逐年提高，而且還發現一個有趣的問題，它的決算還比原來的預算高，這代表什麼意思？就是機關編列的加班費根本就不足以因應大家對加班所提出的加班費申請，所以這代表你們機關裡面編列加班費基本上是有問題的，並沒有符合實際狀況，而且這也會造成機關困擾，為什麼？當這個經費不夠的時候，它只好挖東牆補西牆，硬是去生出相關的加班經費。所以在這個部分，我希望法務部、行政院未來都要檢討，去通盤看一下大家編列加班費的狀況。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員補充，謝謝委員注意到加班費的問題。另外，事實上，我們希望能夠擴充一些人力，譬如說，我們檢察官過勞的問題，我們現在有檢察官助理……"],["翁委員曉玲：現在不要再講人力的部分。我還要講檢察事務官明明就還有缺額，而且檢察事務官外調到別的機關的情況很嚴重，這個我是來不及講了，我現在要講的就是加班費的問題是你們必須要解決的。另外我還要再提醒的就是我們現行加班費的時薪計算方式是明顯有問題的，它的計算方式我不知道多久以來都沒有改變，竟然是用月薪除以240個小時，然後算出時薪；我們現在明明就是周休二日，為什麼不是用8小時，一個禮拜上5天班，然後乘以4個禮拜？所以應該是要除以160小時，這樣才合理！基本上要把大家的加班費時薪提升，而不是還在用多少年以前的計算方式，這是很不合理的！我不認為要提高加班時數，因為這個會讓司法人力更加過勞，但是提高加班費的時薪是有必要的！院長，你應該同意我的看法吧？提高加班費的時薪。"],["卓院長榮泰：計算的方式真的是制度面，其來有自，這是全國統一，如果說……"],["翁委員曉玲：不要說其來有自，我們30年前也沒有周休二日……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然可以討論。"],["翁委員曉玲：現在已經周休二日了，結果還把這個時間算進去……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然可以討論，但是討論之前還是要以原制度施行。"],["翁委員曉玲：總之我希望你們要提出檢討報告，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長備詢。","接下來我們請登記第28位林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","陳雪生","吳春城","林俊憲","萬美玲","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","林月琴","呂玉玲","王正旭","丁學忠"],"page_start":21,"meetingDate":["2024-09-27"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00002","1137601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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院會的施政總質詢有17次預算的總質詢有11次那麼特別預算專案質詢呢 有31次我整理了一下 我問過兩次以上的題目我要做這樣的圖"},{"start":93.49,"end":118.52,"text":"我在對照我們卓院長您的施政報告我很欣慰的要跟院長報告說我這20項問過兩次以上的題目當中有16個題目都涵蓋在您的施政報告當中所以告訴我另外4項我再補上面就有那麼在這裡我特別的欣慰是提到說我過去關心青年的海外交流問了三次你打算在你的施政報告海外圓夢計畫你編了100億"},{"start":120.782,"end":140.101,"text":"另外我關心屏東的農特產品我們的冷鏈物流我們蘇前院長手中推動了100億的冷鏈您在今年繼續明年要推動變了9億另外我也關心了我們的中小企業的發展您也要挹注116億在中小企業照顧我們中小企業"},{"start":140.97,"end":167.426,"text":"院長我要謝謝你我也希望這些預算能夠得到不分朝野共同來支持嚴加審議畢竟我們預算審議合理我們地方建設人民才會受益這是我的第一個但你有沒有注意到院長我這裡面問最多的是哪一個題目你應該看得很清楚吧問最多的就是高鐵延伸屏東問了11次"},{"start":169.466,"end":196.866,"text":"問了11次好所以呢我要請教您左邊的陳部長部長您到屏東嘛然後呢您能不能告訴我目前規劃的左營案是誰任內宣布的從新左營到屏東左營案對從新左營到屏東這條路線現行的規劃的應該是蘇院長對蘇政商院長在2019年宣布的那您知道左營案新左營案被批評什麼問題嗎左院長你知道嗎"},{"start":198.989,"end":224.294,"text":"這車型的方向會造成乘車的不便所以有人說如果真的從新濁南到屏東 屏東一天沒有幾班啊因為單單是要你比個二 我不好意思說幾班好 但是呢 不久前我們高雄的立法委員也問了卓院長有人說要用一個高雄案通過高雄火車站您覺得你有聽到誰有不同的意見嗎"},{"start":225.706,"end":246.979,"text":"我聽到最近有提到高雄這個方案對那你知道陳院長陳其邁市長怎麼說嗎他說不希望再挖10年工程的進行過程中再挖10年不要說挖啦再等個10年喔屏東鄉親也受不了啦所以呢身為屏東人我們對於高鐵延伸屏東"},{"start":249.008,"end":277.12,"text":"不能延宕 這沒人商量 這沒商量的餘地 絕對不能延宕但是路線呢 可以討論所以除了左營案 除了高雄案 有人提出台南案我們卓院長跟陳部長都不是台南人嗎我們來看一下你們藏高鐵吧這個是目前的高鐵有個密碼他一字頭二字頭的是直達車三字頭跟六字頭的是蛙跳車還有五字頭跟八字頭的是站站體"},{"start":278.712,"end":293.81,"text":"這當中阿 你們有沒有注意到所謂的六都 台北 桃園 板橋 台中 台南 跟左營其實呢 它都達到60班 46班以上 有沒有注意到好 那麼陳部長 你們告訴我"},{"start":295.899,"end":313.772,"text":"哪些地方的停的站次最少次數最少是幾班的17的是不是包括了苗栗包括彰化包括雲林都跟非都高鐵停的班次數就不同院長您覺得這合理嗎"},{"start":315.302,"end":335.377,"text":"高鐵因為他趕著就是時效效率應該有一些車是快速到達某一個地方的但是後來我們為了增加對國人增設了很多的站那這些站也根據他的服務的人口我們設定適當的班次那很坦白的你不要因為我是屏東人"},{"start":335.797,"end":350.866,"text":"你覺得屏東在這幾個都市戰中如果有涉戰他是跟台北板橋台中左營同級數還是跟苗栗彰化雲林同級數我們的持平的講你覺得我屏東人"},{"start":351.741,"end":378.879,"text":"當然在在評估包括高鐵南北延伸這兩個路段當中我們所評估的除了他靠站以及使用的效率之外我們還有更大的是一個全台灣整體軌道建設你不用要想要揣摩或討好我也很持平的說依照我們高鐵客觀的運量來說屏東如果加入高鐵營運初期大概跟我們的苗栗彰化跟雲林差不多的班次"},{"start":379.699,"end":407.839,"text":"好了那現在問題有解了有人說為什麼要從台南如果今天增加一個九字頭的列車它的行駛方式直接從台南拉到屏東未來還有可能往台東跟花蓮去這一條也可能是暫暫停的一個環島或者往東的高鐵路線這樣子是不是就解決了新左營路線跟透過高雄火山路線一直遲遲不能決定的結果院長"},{"start":408.595,"end":409.435,"text":"台鐵6塊住車站要遷移1.6公里,在特區的台鐵先告價可不可以?"},{"start":432.984,"end":433.665,"text":"這是誰當院長的時候核定的?"},{"start":447.679,"end":474.73,"text":"2018年賴清德院長賴院長現在總統了6年了好不容易今年9月環評通過有人說動工還有2年你會不會責成部長可不可以趕進度趕進度好不好院長請部長趕進度把東西第二項快速道路趕快做好不好環評通過了好部長這個他說已經在說在趕進度了好第三個我們屏東車站打從誕生開始就經常在漏雨"},{"start":475.47,"end":478.211,"text":"你認為屏東科技園區、屏科和高鐵完工後在我們屏東可以創造多少的就業人口?"},{"start":504.131,"end":505.692,"text":"當年2000年屏東加工出口區成立的時候從24年到現在"},{"start":516.206,"end":521.112,"text":"中科10年如果增加2萬人台積電如果進駐了平科您覺得我們產業人口是不是會增加到上千上萬"},{"start":535.769,"end":540.653,"text":"請看下一個圖目前屏東科技產業園區是24年前的道路規劃現在的高鐵特定區全區是307公頃第一期是158公頃當中可以用到科學園區跟產業園區的不到100公頃"},{"start":555.026,"end":578.243,"text":"但是南邊既有的屏東科技產業園區120公頃對面的汽車專區是將近100公頃加上屏東線路去完成開發的將近20公頃總共有將近250公頃如果你覺得未來屏科我們屏東高鐵發展後哪邊的產業人口的增加不亞於新社的舊有的增加的幅度是不亞於新社的是不是這樣子"},{"start":579.451,"end":600.321,"text":"就是我們南部的這邊我給你看下一個圖也就是說目前你看到的右上角的屏東科學園區我們行政院投入了60億做區段徵收跟工程經費編列60億但是不要忽略了未來的發展包括底下的汽車專業區既有的科技產業園區它也需要吸納這麼多的就業人口部長"},{"start":601.361,"end":624.989,"text":"你願不願意多中央多投入把南區的聯外交通一併提升改善不要只停留在24年前的水準目前的規劃是台一線跟線道189作為主要但是現在縣政府他們現在正在辦一個可行性的研究是針對屏東科技園區的第二條聯外道路這個部分目前正在做可行性研究可行性研究出來之後交通部會協助他生活圈道路的部分"},{"start":625.309,"end":626.73,"text":"前瞻基礎建設全台灣自來稅普及率最低"},{"start":652.813,"end":676.363,"text":"市長也知道我問的一定是屏東委員會問的當然就是您最關心的地方屏東我們在105年的時候普及率不到50%兩戶就有一戶不是用自來水但是過去8年我們提升到了7成為什麼因為過去這8年自來水無自來水地區的改善計畫第三期第四期多虧有了前瞻特別預算的挹注總共提供了143億將近超過70億用在屏東"},{"start":680.768,"end":703.076,"text":"院長 屏東很感謝中央前瞻的無自來水地區的改善計畫編了140幾億將近一半用在屏東讓我們的普及率從不到5成將近到7成謝謝中央但是接下來我們來看一下今年前瞻最後一期接下來自來水地區的改善計畫第5期編了75億這75億通通要給屏東嗎"},{"start":707.233,"end":736.442,"text":"有沒有可能都給屏東無自來水地區的供水改善第5期在114到118年當中一共編列的是總數是106億106億我這邊的資料是75億那顯然是不夠的那106億可不可以給90億給屏東因為屏東要達到了九成達到全國平均還要90億有可能嗎這個五年的計畫還是要請經濟部透過水公司來衡量當然最需要的地方一定先到達"},{"start":737.222,"end":764.709,"text":"好那所以院長跟市長可以承諾未來無自來水地區的自來水普及計畫我們的預算盡量的來支援屏東讓屏東不要說8年啦4年內能夠大幅的提升接近全國的水準院長可以承諾嗎我們努力達到這樣的好謝謝接下來我們請那個環境部彭部長跟農業部陳部長好來我現在考試一下兩位部長還沒到的時候交通部經濟部請回你聽過平地照理沒有"},{"start":765.95,"end":770.291,"text":"當年的平地造林是因為我們加入WTO以後那針對一些比較地利比較"},{"start":799.016,"end":815.38,"text":"所以很多人都誤會了平地造林不是為了水土保持甚至後來他是為了農地減量他當然有一些環境綠美化有些棲地保留的效果但是請問一下部長陳部長平地造林的投資效應你覺得值得延續嗎目前投入多少錢"},{"start":816.32,"end":845.347,"text":"投入了103億對不對是那麼總共呢台塘的有將近10500公頃私有土地將近3000公頃你覺得繼續值得推嗎我想趙林的一些推動的政策是一定會一直持續的因為趙林後續平地趙林的政策一直推你確定嗎我告訴你平地趙林目前有什麼問題啊因為他趙林的目的他不知道做經濟林他只要存活率他種的很密根本不成材不具經濟效益"},{"start":846.067,"end":870.979,"text":"另外因為疏於管理 造成林地的農地髒亂 排水堵塞 很多的問題所以平地造林退場之後 很多人就撤掉了畢業人員都撤走了那你覺得 院長你覺得一個花了20年 投入了100多億的平地造林退場之後就一無是處嗎 有沒有什麼想法來我們給黃部長一個提示你覺得可不可以來創造我們的碳匯"},{"start":872.143,"end":893.462,"text":"第一個是剛剛委員寫的海面城市是一個很好的做法 如果我們經過一些設計你跳到下一題了 沒關係我想委員我先說明一下現在目前平地教練陸陸續續已經達到了一個可採拔的那我們分三類 一類是他具有生態棲地的這些生態棲地的我們保留這個部分我們會繼續保留有沒有可以回復農用的"},{"start":894.991,"end":895.771,"text":"其實我們來思考一下氣候極端化"},{"start":924.628,"end":939.484,"text":"最近豪大雨 很多都都淹水就算高雄市有那麼好的蓄洪池 地下水庫還是淹水為什麼 因為它需要更多的海綿城市有沒有可能評估這些平地造林在六都周圍的來做我們城市的蓄水池"},{"start":941.02,"end":961.916,"text":"報告委員這個是一個調適的最好的做法那陳部長你接受嗎我想在地滯洪這個概念我們跟經濟部水利署已經研業了非常久然後針對都會區旁如果說一煙水但是旁邊如果剛好有平地照林的話是值得變成一個在地滯洪的一個處所好 最後你呢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:01:04 - 15:17:15","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"154923","gazette":{"lineno":182,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（15時1分）院長謝謝，請示可以脫外套嗎？"],["主席：可以，可以，請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，在場列席的政府機關首長、官員，我們有請卓院長還有交通部陳部長、經濟部陳次長；另外農業部跟環境部麻煩請伺機而動。"],["主席：請交通部跟經濟部備詢，其他部長等叫到再上來好了，因為這個畫面的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：鍾委員好，請你務必保重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，院長好、部長好、次長好。"],["卓院長榮泰：務必保重，注意你手上任何的承重，負擔不要太大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。今天我們來進行114年施政報告我對院長的總質詢，大概從我就任立委以來，已經問過了59次的院會質詢，今天是第60次，其中院會的施政總質詢有17次；預算的總質詢有11次；特別預算專案質詢有31次。我整理了一下，我問過兩次以上的題目把它做了這樣的圖，我再對照卓院長您的施政報告，我很欣慰的要跟院長報告，這20項問過兩次以上的題目當中，有16個題目都涵蓋在您的施政報告當中。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，告訴我另外4項我再補。"],["鍾委員佳濱：上面就有，好。在這裡我特別的欣慰有提到我過去關心青年的海外交流，問了3次，在你的施政報告中你打算在海外圓夢計畫編了100億。另外，我關心屏東的農特產品、我們的冷鏈物流，我們蘇前院長手中推動了100億的冷鏈，您在今年繼續，明年要推動編了9億。另外，我也關心我們中小企業的發展，你也要挹注116億在中小企業，照顧我們中小企業。院長，我要謝謝你……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我也希望這些預算能夠得到不分朝野共同來支持、嚴加審議，畢竟我們預算審議合理，地方建設人民才會受益，這是第一個。但院長有沒有注意到，我這裡面問最多的是哪一個題目？你應該看得很清楚吧？問最多的就是高鐵延伸屏東，問了11次，問了11次。好，所以我要請教您左邊的陳部長，部長您到屏東，您能不能告訴我目前規劃的左營案是誰任內宣布的？從新左營到屏東。"],["陳部長世凱：左營案？"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，從新左營拉到屏東這條路線，現行規劃的……"],["陳部長世凱：應該是蘇院長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，蘇貞昌院長在2019年宣布的。那您知道左營案被批評什麼問題，卓院長知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是車行的方向會造成乘車的不便。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，「倒退嚕」啊！所以有人說如果真的從新左營拉到屏東，屏東一天沒有幾班啦！"],["陳部長世凱：對，車次會少。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為單單是要……好，你比個二，我不好意思說幾班！但是不久前，我們高雄的立法委員也問了卓院長，有人說要用一個「高雄案」通過高雄火車站，您覺得有聽到誰有不同的意見嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我最近有聽到提到高雄這個方案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，那你知道陳其邁市長怎麼說嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他說不希望再……"],["鍾委員佳濱：挖10年……"],["卓院長榮泰：工程進行的過程中再挖10年……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不要說挖啦，再等個10年，屏東鄉親也受不了。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：身為屏東人，對於高鐵延伸屏東，不能延宕這沒得商量，這沒商量的餘地，絕對不能延宕，但是路線可以討論，除了左營案、除了高雄案，有人提出臺南案。卓院長跟陳部長都不是臺南人嘛！我們來看一下，你們常搭高鐵吧，目前高鐵有個密碼，1字頭、2字頭的是直達車，3字頭跟6字頭的是蛙跳車，還有5字頭跟8字頭是站站停，這當中你們有沒有注意到，所謂的六都，臺北、桃園、板橋、臺中、臺南跟左營，其實都達到60班、46班以上，有沒有注意到？好，陳部長能不能告訴我，哪些地方停的站次最少、次數最少？十幾班的？"],["陳部長世凱：17的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：17的，是不是包括了苗栗、彰化、雲林？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都跟非都，高鐵停的班次數不同，院長，您覺得這合理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：高鐵為了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：根據它的服務人數來決定班次嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：高鐵因為趕著時效、效率，應該有一些車是快速到達某個地方的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是後來我們為了增加國人更多……"],["鍾委員佳濱：服務範圍……"],["卓院長榮泰：增設了很多站。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些站也根據服務人口設定適當的班次嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很坦白的，你不要因為我是屏東人，你覺得屏東如果在這幾個都市站中設站，它是跟臺北、板橋、臺中、左營同級數，還是跟苗栗、彰化、雲林同級數？我們持平的講。你覺得，屏東人，將近七十幾萬……"],["卓院長榮泰：當然在評估高鐵南北延伸這兩個路段當中，我們評估的除了靠站以及使用效率之外，還有更大的是全臺灣整體的軌道建設。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長，你不用想要揣摩或討好，我也很持平的說，依照高鐵客觀的運量來說，屏東如果加入高鐵，營運初期大概跟苗栗、彰化、雲林差不多的班次。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那現在問題有解了，有人說：為什麼要從臺南？如果今天增加一個9字頭的列車，它的行駛方式直接從臺南拉到屏東，未來還有可能往臺東跟花蓮去，這一條也可能是站站停的環島或者往東的高鐵路線，這樣是不是就解決了新左營路線跟透過高雄火車站路線一直遲遲不能決定的結果？院長，思考一下可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我要請部長再跟交通規劃的專家學者，好像在我們討論的過程當中，這個創意是沒有被討論過的。"],["陳部長世凱：對，這之前沒有討論過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：陳部長，可以研究一下。","好，接下來三個小問題，陳部長你很快的、爽快答應就好了。臺鐵六塊厝車站要遷移1.6公里……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在特區的臺鐵「先高架」可不可以？過去竹東到新竹、沙崙都是這樣做。"],["陳部長世凱：這部分我們現在已經提早在辦理了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛！好，謝謝你。","第二個，關於高屏東西向第二快速道路，卓院長，你知道嗎？這是誰當院長時核定的？"],["卓院長榮泰：看照片是賴院長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：2018年，賴清德院長，賴院長現在是總統了，6年了，好不容易今年9月環評通過，有人說動工要兩年，你可不可以責成部長，可不可以趕進度？趕進度好不好？院長，請部長趕進度，東西向第二條快速道路趕快做好不好？環評通過了。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，部長說已經在趕進度了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，第三個，屏東車站打從誕生開始就經常在漏雨，前不久的凱米颱風，真的漏得亂七八糟，目前我邀請臺鐵去會勘，所幸這10年的問題終於有解，要增加4,000萬，要增加風雨走廊，但是目前還是有些滴漏，部長可以承諾儘快完成，讓它不淹水，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題，我們來努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。接下來，我請教院長，你認為屏東科技園區（屏科）和高鐵完工後，在屏東可以創造多少的就業人口？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個再請委員指教，因為我手上沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，給你一個參考資料。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當年（2000年）屏東加工出口區成立時，那時候叫屏東加工出口區，到現在24年了，成長到4,000人，但是中科短短10年內從3萬2,000人成長到5萬3,000人，我們看到之前台積電兩個封裝廠就要3,000個就業機會，所以中科10年內增加了2萬人，如果台積電進駐了屏科，您覺得我們產業人口是不是會增加到上千上萬？你覺得有沒有把握？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該有這個趨勢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請您看下一個圖，目前我們屏東科技產業園區它是24年前的道路規劃，你看看現在的高鐵特定區，全區是307公頃，第一期是158公頃，當中可以用到科學園區跟產業園區的不到100公頃，但是南邊既有的屏東科技產業園區有124公頃，對面的汽車專區則是有將近100公頃，加上屏東縣陸續完成開發的有將近20公頃，總共有將近250公頃。未來我們屏科、屏東高鐵發展後，哪邊的產業人口的增加不亞於新設的？舊有增加的幅度是不是不亞於新設的？是不是這樣子？我給你看下一個圖，也就是說，目前右上角的屏東科學園區，我們行政院投入了60億做區段徵收跟工程經費，這部分編列了60億，但是不要忽略了未來的發展，包括底下的汽車專業區，既有的科技產業園區，也是需要吸納這麼多的就業人口。部長，你願不願意中央多投入，把南區的聯外交通一併提升、改善，不要只停留在24年前的水準？"],["陳部長世凱：目前的規劃是台1線跟縣道189號作為主要，但是現在縣政府他們正在辦一個可行性研究，是針對屏東科技園區的第二條聯外道路，這個部分目前正在做可行性研究，可行性研究出來之後，交通部會協助它生活圈道路的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以院長請全力支持，不要只有台1線北邊，台1線南邊既有的產業園區，經濟部次長要點頭了，你們是不是也一樣中央繼續支持？次長，是不是這樣？"],["陳次長正祺：是，我們也會支持，我們會擴增這個道路……"],["鍾委員佳濱：會擴區，好。","接下來再問一個，我們看一下前瞻基礎建設，院長，你知道全臺灣自來水普及率最低的是哪個地方嗎？想也知道，我問的一定是屏東。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員會問的，當然就是您最關心的地方。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們屏東在105年的時候，普及率不到50%，兩戶就有一戶不是用自來水，但是過去這8年我們提升到了七成，為什麼？因為過去這8年有無自來水地區改善計畫第3期、第4期，多虧有了前瞻特別預算的挹注，總共提供了143億，將近、超過70億用在屏東。院長，屏東很感謝中央，前瞻的無自來水地區改善計畫，編了140幾億，將近一半用在屏東，讓我們的普及率從不到五成拉高到將近七成，謝謝中央！","但是我們來看一下，今年是前瞻最後一期，接下來無自來水地區改善計畫第5期編了75億，這75億通通都要給屏東嗎？有沒有可能都給屏東？"],["卓院長榮泰：無自來水地區供水改善計畫第5期，從114年到118年，編列的總數一共是106億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：106億？我這邊的資料是75億，顯然這是不夠的。這106億當中，可不可以給屏東90億？因為屏東要達到九成、達到全國的平均，還要90億，有可能嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個5年的計畫還是要請經濟部透過水公司來衡量，當然最需要的地方一定先到達。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以院長跟次長可以承諾未來無自來水地區自來水普及計畫，我們的預算會儘量的來支援屏東，讓屏東不要說8年，在4年內能夠大幅的提升，接近全國的水準，院長可以承諾嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們努力達到這樣的標準。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請環境部彭部長跟農業部陳部長。","好，我來考試一下，在兩位部長還沒到的時候……"],["主席：交通部跟經濟部請回，麻煩請環境部跟農業部備詢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長，你有沒有聽過平地造林？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：平地造林，有聽過。你認為平地造林它是要做水土保育還是做農業生產？"],["卓院長榮泰：它保育的功能應該比較多吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：保育的部分比較多，答錯了！部長，請你告訴院長，當年的平地造林是為了什麼而來的？"],["陳部長駿季：當年的平地造林是因為我們加入WTO以後，針對一些地力比較低的這些土地，我們用造林的方式去做某個程度的生態維護。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以很多人都誤會了，平地造林不是為了水土保持……"],["卓院長榮泰：生態維護……"],["鍾委員佳濱：甚至後來它是為了農地減量，它當然有一些環境綠美化、有一些棲地保留的效果。但是請問一下陳部長，平地造林的投資效益，你覺得值得延續嗎？目前投入多少錢？投入了103億，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：總共來看，台糖有將近1萬0,500公頃，私有土地有將近3,000公頃，你覺得值得繼續推動嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想造林的一些推動的政策是一定會一直持續的，因為造林後續有一些……"],["鍾委員佳濱：平地造林的政策會一直推，你確定嗎？我告訴你目前平地造林有什麼問題。因為造林的目的並不是要做經濟林，而是只要存活率，所以種得很密，根本不成材，不具經濟效益。另外，因為疏於管理，造成林地、農地髒亂，排水堵塞，有很多問題。所以平地造林退場之後，很多人就撤掉了，旁邊的人反對的就都撤掉了。院長，你覺得一個花了二十年、投入一百多億的平地造林，在退場之後就一無是處嗎？有沒有什麼想法？來，我們給彭部長一個提示，你覺得可不可以藉此創造碳匯？"],["彭部長啓明：第一，剛剛委員寫的海綿城市是一個很好的作法，如果我們經過一些設計……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你跳到下一題了！沒關係……"],["陳部長駿季：委員，我想我先說明一下。目前平地造林已經陸陸續續達到可採伐的程度，我們分三類，一類是具有生態棲地的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：生態棲地的保留。"],["陳部長駿季：這部分我們會繼續保留，後續……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有可以恢復農用的？"],["陳部長駿季：有一部分的私用林、大概七百公頃會恢復農用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有可以做光電的？"],["陳部長駿季：然後另外有一部分在持續養護後，可以成為生產林，這大概分三類，這三類我們後續……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長一直不敢鬆口啦！其實台糖那些地、那些林原來就是沒有的，砍掉種電也是差不多而已，但很多人忌諱，因為砍樹是不好的事。來，我要告訴彭部長，我們來思考一下氣候極端化的問題。最近豪大雨，很多都都淹水，就算高雄市有那麼好的蓄洪池、地下水庫，卻還是淹水。為什麼？因為需要更多的海綿城市！有沒有可能評估六都周圍的平地造林作為我們城市的蓄水池？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這是調適的最好作法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：陳部長，你接受嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想在地滯洪的概念我們跟經濟部水利署已經研議了非常久，有關都會區易淹水，而旁邊如果剛好有平地造林的話，是值得變成在地滯洪的處所，但不是全部，不是全部……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後一題與外送平台有關，我以書面質詢補上，再請院長酌參。謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢，也恭喜鍾佳濱委員，雖然受傷但還是中氣十足。"],["委員鍾佳濱書面質詢：","鑒於近日Uber Eats宣布併購foodpanda台灣外送事業，二大外送平台在台灣市占率高達八成，外界都擔心一旦公平會通過併購，在Uber 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院長其實今天要跟您討論的一些議題在上個會期時期也跟您討論過但是我們希望今天能有一些進度那在上個會期本期有跟您質詢過桃園市這個近年來的人口年增率高達1.32%"},{"start":48.353,"end":48.473,"text":"主席"},{"start":66.644,"end":95.475,"text":"只有438.18億那再度纏連纏連什麼就是六都最低所以今天我才把這問題重新再來跟院長討論一次那你看看我們桃園是創稅名列前茅但是我們的補助款全國倒數第三扣掉離島我覺得這個對我們桃園已經是非常不公平了那當然我覺得等一下我們可以再來討論這個才化法的問題但是在現在我們覺得對桃園這麼不公平的補助之下"},{"start":96.055,"end":96.315,"text":"所以我想院長："},{"start":112.093,"end":135.222,"text":"其實我們這一次您用這個縣市執行非法訂設服支出其實我們真的要替桃園叫屈因為我們其實是在執行其實中央有很多的政策也許中央做得不完善或者中央做不到但是地方政府來協助來做但是我們不了解為什麼這樣子還要遭到扣除我們的補助款這是一個我想我們不能接受同時我想其實各縣市"},{"start":135.842,"end":136.563,"text":"以上我講的院長認同嗎?"},{"start":153.834,"end":157.938,"text":"我們來談看看桃園市有沒有違反或是不是遵守的那我想院長我想請教您一下您同不同意少子化是國安問題"},{"start":178.218,"end":197.555,"text":"當然同意,而且非常的嚴重那既然是國安問題,就是中央跟地方必須要一起來解決的但我們看這幾年,其實中央做的成果並不好我不是說中央沒有做,而是其實這個成果我們可以看得到從數字上看起來,其實人口也呈現負成長那目前這個生不如死的狀況,我想院長有掌握著嗎?"},{"start":198.115,"end":227.361,"text":"那所以你看我們地方政府也為了要協助中央或者是我們自己的縣市去解決那我們包括這個提高生育率的這個協助國安解決問題的策略其實非常多我想我唸給你聽有幾個我們桃園市真的做得很好的地方包括我們這個五歲幼兒教育的助學金好運專車或者動然補助以及產後憂鬱心理諮商以及我們國中小營養午餐免費等等這以上哪一項不是在因應少子化我們來解決國安問題提出來的一些福利"},{"start":228.001,"end":247.78,"text":"那我不了解就是今天為什麼我們去補中央的不足我們去做一件對我們少子化有幫助的事情那我們對這個孩子下一代或者是對我們的這個產婦孕婦提高生育率有很多的誘因那結果呢我們幫忙解決問題但我們卻要受到中央這樣的懲罰還要扣我們這個補助稅款這怎麼對呢 這怎麼會公平呢"},{"start":248.544,"end":248.944,"text":"我請部長能夠說明一下 謝謝"},{"start":262.714,"end":265.556,"text":"關於中央統籌分配稅款的部分"},{"start":284.753,"end":287.615,"text":"我們來談有沒有違反規定或相關法條或標準剛剛我們桃園市有在做動軟補助"},{"start":309.731,"end":310.753,"text":"可見這是一個好的政策這是第一個"},{"start":327.532,"end":327.712,"text":"主席"},{"start":350.305,"end":374.764,"text":"有沒有超過現行中央法規的標準有沒有超過中央所定的一致性標準以及第三項地方自行開辦社會福利措施且編列金額大院長大家有瞭解嗎這三項我們再來看以上這三項我覺得你們一定會同意這都是原則性的規範它沒有一個特定的項目也沒有一個認定的標準是都沒有的還是院長有"},{"start":377.403,"end":399.254,"text":"但是各項補助要量力而為人民會希望中央地方政府多給他一些生活上的照顧我想你同意這是一個原則性的規範量力或者是編列金額大到底什麼是大什麼是小量力什麼叫量力"},{"start":400.234,"end":400.254,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":421.323,"end":421.683,"text":"中和以上"},{"start":438.354,"end":458.566,"text":"您可能覺得扣這個一億不多那這個要來懲罰我們懲罰什麼我也不知道那但我想您應該不會這樣做可是呢我本期在這裡真的要告訴您我想桃園市不但過去在才化法以及這個補助上面對我們不盡公平我們都還沒有爭取到一個公平的待遇那結果你又反過來再扣我們錢"},{"start":459.266,"end":484.656,"text":"我覺得這個是我們完全沒辦法接受的 何況我們在解決中央的問題再者我再舉另外一個例子 讓你知道我們的財政有多辛苦我們囤房稅2.0今年是7月上路 台灣市政府也很配合 中央政策我們都配合所以我們把單一自住稅率跟一年內代銷的房屋稅我們都把它調降 但是囤房稅我們還是配合對不對還是配合做 可是我們這樣計算起來我們的稅損9000多萬"},{"start":486.377,"end":506.287,"text":"也就是說你又扣我一億 囤房稅我配合中央政策我又少九千多萬 一來一往兩億的預算所以我想 院長我有一個請求我想我們這個財化法的修正在9月4號財政部已經邀集了我們各地方政府來徵集意見雖然之前也有做那這次聽說也獲得了初步分配指標的一個共識"},{"start":507.888,"end":536.29,"text":"我們希望行政院能不能儘速這院長上個會期我也提過那我希望說我們儘速提出我們的版本那麼同時對於今天我們所討論的非法定社會福利的支出去扣減補助款的這個部分我希望院長能不能承諾說我們在三個月之內我們提出這個檢討還有能不能提出一些具體的標準不要再模擬兩可量力啦大啦小啦我覺得我們有沒有一個比較具體的三個月之內能不能把它做一個檢討"},{"start":536.83,"end":542.613,"text":"院長 我要提一下你知道嗎 一個縣市政府的財政 如你們所說的 不管短促 惡化 它的原因絕對不是單一的"},{"start":560.16,"end":560.56,"text":"財化法的部分請部長再"},{"start":589.485,"end":593.458,"text":"談話法我們先我們再找時間再談但是這個部分您覺得可以嗎"},{"start":595.202,"end":619.805,"text":"你說補助的部分補助我們一向都有中央地方一個補助的標準在執行不管是計劃型的或是一般的我是在這裡嚴正的表達您這樣子就是扣除這個疑義我們不能接受那還有囤房稅這個9千萬對桃園來說也很辛苦所以我們希望是不是日後我們有這個計劃型的補助行政院能夠多支持一下可以嗎"},{"start":620.706,"end":620.826,"text":"市長在"},{"start":644.381,"end":645.082,"text":"我會特別注意,謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":660.967,"end":662.788,"text":"桃園的停跳電高達178次27萬戶左右受到很大的影響怨聲載道"},{"start":683.479,"end":698.072,"text":"那我相信這個民院身為一個行政院長是應該要去重視跟解決的那上個會期的時候我有要求經濟部其實要成立外部的這個停跳電事故調查委員會那當時也承諾會成立那不曉得四個月過去的現在這個委員會成立了嗎"},{"start":698.902,"end":699.262,"text":"所以有還是沒有?"},{"start":721.172,"end":744.057,"text":"目前有還是沒有?我們有在調查目前有成立還是沒有成立?我們有成立一個機制好那你不用說你可以先下去因為今天顯然為你後面經濟部所有的事情大概都是這種回答因為他沒有辦法了解然後也沒有辦法代表這個經濟部的部長所以今天我想經濟部的事情我還是先請教院長如果沒辦法回答的那我們就是這個會後給我一個資料好不好?是的 謝謝"},{"start":745.177,"end":772.185,"text":"我希望這個外部停跳電事故調查委員會之前有說要成立起來我們就積極把它成立起來因為這個調查事故的原因很重要而且會有公信力我想這個對大家都好臺電的董事長曾文森說了一句八月的時候他說桃園以北五百萬瓦以上的大型數據中心一律不合工這句話其實真的引起軒然大波請問一下院長原因是什麼"},{"start":773.168,"end":798.743,"text":"第一個我們覺得包括國外的知名的廠商大廠要來台灣設立任何的資訊中心研發中心設廠我們都歡迎但也要顧慮到我們整個的平均的分配包括土地的取得包括能源的使用等等跟人力的配置那這個我希望在整個國家的整體的策略要求底下我們來做這樣的規劃能夠跟國外的大廠取得協議"},{"start":800.043,"end":817.009,"text":"臺電跟經濟部講的缺電的問題 電網的問題您就是沒有提到那我想我來提一下 當時除了說桃園以北不合工之外同時還講一個 這也是經濟部說的他說我們還是鼓勵科技業 但是請你優先到支持設立電廠的縣市"},{"start":818.85,"end":820.351,"text":"請你到支持設立電廠的縣市"},{"start":840.239,"end":856.271,"text":"全台發電將近五分之一我們現在桃園正在建三階天然氣接收站剛剛提到有13座燃氣機組也就是說我們其實是一個燃氣發電的重點城市"},{"start":857.432,"end":857.552,"text":"毛孟靜議員"},{"start":877.972,"end":895.326,"text":"部長我想我沒有要給經濟部回答因為他也答不出個所以然來但我今天要跟院長講如果台電經濟部在這種說法上自行矛盾關我桃園我是不能接受的我們這麼多的發電在桃園桃園人犧牲還要有這些空屋"},{"start":896.067,"end":898.728,"text":"首先他不是限制令他是在設廠的過程當中就我們的能源提供"},{"start":917.256,"end":917.456,"text":"講到這個電網阿"},{"start":943.514,"end":961.412,"text":"執政8年了今年第9年了現在還在講這個電網有問題那之前怎麼都不修呢對不對所以我想院長我還是今天真的就是覺得中央對桃園真的不公平我們希望在這個部分可以重新檢討能夠來支持桃園那不要把桃園列進去好不好"},{"start":961.889,"end":977.63,"text":"我們在總統指示下5600億的電網韌性的加強10年的工程我們會在2028年盡量把它完成包括經濟部包括台電都對這些工程極力的合作我們希望每一個部門的部會跟著院長提醒有漂亮的數字但數字要落實才是成果"},{"start":978.01,"end":978.15,"text":"當然這個是"},{"start":1006.946,"end":1025.804,"text":"有其需要但是尊重地方政府所以這次你會尊重張善政市長的決定是嗎這個彭博長今天有一些新的說明今天才發生我請教說明當然我們希望在橫平的狀況底下能夠有新的說法大家再重新來考慮也是可以"},{"start":1026.164,"end":1028.787,"text":"所以經濟部跟環境部你們會要桃園市政府這個就是在這個撤銷的這個部分你們一樣會這一次再撤銷嗎"},{"start":1040.362,"end":1066.672,"text":"我們給彭部長今天他有一個新的標準跟說法出來大家簡短報告委員我們中午的時候開了一個記者會因為我們全台灣體檢了SRF的廠商那桃園市也有一些SRF的製造商那也有使用的那我們目前用的標準是全世界最嚴格的標準有一個國家有用SRF我們就用他最嚴格的標準所以重金屬等等所以我們已經訂出標準了那我們也同時也告知桃園市政府了"},{"start":1067.152,"end":1082.258,"text":"部長您是說用最嚴格的標準去監督他的意思是不是對 沒錯 沒錯所以現在的意思是說行政院今天問院長所以環境部跟經濟部你們主張要求桃園市政府要接受這三家SRF的入院是嗎"},{"start":1083.206,"end":1084.167,"text":"我們希望能夠解決垃圾問題"},{"start":1097.677,"end":1100.599,"text":"用最新最好的方法來解決各地的認識問題"},{"start":1115.231,"end":1115.732,"text":"阿凡請交通部長備詢"},{"start":1136.459,"end":1140.662,"text":"在院會當中桃園市的代表列席代表跟我的對話是最多的陳部長今天有好一點嗎那天在委員會緊張嘛對不對今天好 好多了"},{"start":1162.329,"end":1162.589,"text":"我坐火車我搭火車"},{"start":1181.844,"end":1187.966,"text":"我希望你能夠排時間來桃園桃園有太多的重大建設需要部長能夠盡快去瞭解尤其是鐵路地下化部長有瞭解到嗎"},{"start":1205.369,"end":1229.085,"text":"這個不只是桃園的重大交通建設 同時也是全國非常 這我們國家的重大交通建設不過呢 四個月前在這裡 其實我總諮詢時候 當時就有提到了工程嚴重延宕 非常嚴重延宕那現在不管是土建標還是基電標 目前都還有16個標是沒有標出去的四個月的時間 一個一個標案都沒有出去 其實這是很嚴重的"},{"start":1231.026,"end":1255.923,"text":"公程進度只要慢就是在凌遲我們桃園市的市民而且增加這個交通黑暗期我想您待過台中您也知道其實我們任何重大交通建設都是要快一點那這四個月當中我們這個工程的進度原本應該是要從35.33%要能夠提高到37.5%要能夠這個進度是要能夠有這個增加2.1%可是我們沒有所以呢適同我們的落後的進度從4%擴大到5%所以還是不斷的在落後"},{"start":1260.065,"end":1260.826,"text":"金費不足的部分有沒有編入明年度的預算"},{"start":1286.159,"end":1305.627,"text":"這個牽扯到桃園市甚至跟新北市都有相關那中央跟地方在這種財務分配的比例下是有一定的標準的院長那我們講到這個財務分配比例我想之前桃園市跟中央的分配是我們25%中央75%但是我必須要講這1048億的基礎之下我們同意這樣做因為我們橫著過我們的財政狀況那現在你又要多增加將近800億桃園市現在的財政雪上加霜"},{"start":1315.131,"end":1330.239,"text":"那你如果還要再我們去負擔這25%我想我們是不能接受的所以我也希望跟院長跟部長來溝通跟請命說這769億我們希望能夠由中央全數來支持不要再讓桃園有這麼大的負擔了可以嗎"},{"start":1332.48,"end":1350.868,"text":"報告委員我們增加的經費除了當然是物價指數的問題物價調高了不少那其實還有一些部分是因為這個憑證的難演你應該也都很清楚那個部分就增加了100多億然後還有一些是這個文資的一些挖掘的發掘的部分確實也造成了一些延宕"},{"start":1351.328,"end":1351.708,"text":"花蓮0 台南12.5 嘉宜14"},{"start":1372.648,"end":1374.19,"text":"所以我希望之前的25%我們是談好的"},{"start":1391.688,"end":1391.988,"text":"麻煩請衛福部請備詢"},{"start":1415.443,"end":1444.663,"text":"委員長 我想我就先提 我想去年 112年5月1號起我們新冠肺炎就從第5類的法定傳染病調整為第4類那指揮中心在這個時候也解散當時的發言人也是現在機關署的副署長羅一鈞也說這個新冠肺炎把這個等級調整跟流感相當中重症或併發症才需通報同時也有很多的醫學專家也都認定新冠肺炎這個流感化您同意嗎"},{"start":1445.463,"end":1454.869,"text":"新冠再度比照流感病發症 改名為新冠病發重症 放寬通報時效維福部的做法是否象徵新冠走向流感化或比照流感來辦理"},{"start":1472.636,"end":1472.816,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":1489.622,"end":1516.858,"text":"我想就在大家都以為現在疫情已經過去或者穩定的這個新冠肺炎事實上它其實是悄悄的捲土重來中而且進入到第六波的一個大流行在6月底7月初也就是我們說的27週28週甚至達到一個高峰單週單週的急診就診人數高達12萬8千多人那這個單週最高新增了987例的重症同時還有104例的死亡"},{"start":1517.678,"end":1517.818,"text":"是的"},{"start":1537.745,"end":1553.019,"text":"好 那我們再來看根據行政院110年合定的新興傳染病劑流感大流行的這個計畫裡面這個依據計畫中防疫物資儲備跟管理的指標我們對於流感的這個抗病毒藥物"},{"start":1553.66,"end":1557.002,"text":"是的首先在這邊還是謝謝委員過去對防疫工作長多年來的一個關心跟幫忙那有關你剛剛您提的問題"},{"start":1581.3,"end":1582.74,"text":"9月11日我們看到我們自己發布的新聞"},{"start":1598.466,"end":1606.434,"text":"採購了80萬份的新冠抗病毒藥物其中30萬瑞德西韋可是15萬年底才要到貨另外15萬是開口合約50萬的貝拉維40萬人份年底才要到貨另外2萬的莫納皮拉維也是開口合約"},{"start":1618.766,"end":1632.373,"text":"所以我們現在看到事實上我們的庫存到目前為止大概83萬份左右那佔總人口數大概3.5個百分點而已如果我們一樣是流感化其實這樣的備要我覺得打了一個大大的問號那我們再來看"},{"start":1634.594,"end":1657.239,"text":"因為現在馬上10月份了要進入秋冬了疫情會不會捲土再來會不會突然間有很大的一個變化那疫情會不會突然高漲我們不知道可是我們就是要做好準備嘛何況我們有以前的這個防疫的一個經驗所以呢我覺得我們再來看一個數字這個數字是疾管署統計的今年4月我們新冠累積的這個重症的這個個案數高達9900例"},{"start":1660.221,"end":1683.18,"text":"這個數字是我們同期流感病發症700餘例的14倍同時新冠死亡大概1000例左右也是流感死亡個案100例的11倍所以我覺得如果我們都把它看成流感化那何以我們防疫的藥物儲備差那麼多我們對待流感跟對待新冠我們的SOP好像也差非常多"},{"start":1684.14,"end":1689.605,"text":"我首先謝謝委員透過這麼重要的時間提醒國人不要釣魚輕心這個是非常感激新冠跟流感我們現在同步會從10月1號開始第一階段針對65歲以上的國人預施打"},{"start":1712.924,"end":1719.189,"text":"那我請教一下那我們到底明年有沒有編預算要購買快篩跟這個新冠的抗病毒藥品"},{"start":1735.063,"end":1736.585,"text":"有沒有編這個預算我現在請教一下有沒有編這個預算那現在有沒有編這個預算明年要買這個藥"},{"start":1750.467,"end":1751.948,"text":"所以明年沒有編列預算對嗎"},{"start":1770.584,"end":1797.791,"text":"明年度就暫時不用編列但是沒有編列但是我覺得這還是值得我們擔憂院長我們今天在這邊不是要用指責或責怪什麼做了什麼沒有做我覺得這件事非常的重要我們必須要去看待它我們要知道其實現在如果我們備藥不足用藥又有受限因為目前用藥是有限制備藥不足用藥又有受限未來中重症或者死亡率它就有可能會提高"},{"start":1798.371,"end":1808.691,"text":"所以這一點本席在這邊為什麼今天這麼多議題這一題非常重要馬上秋冬就要開始了我們希望把備要用足然後呢我們未來這個用要能夠放寬可以嗎"},{"start":1809.403,"end":1834.097,"text":"是 謝謝委員再次謝謝透過這樣的機會來提醒國人衛福部一定要記取過去的例子跟經驗在往後的時間內不要重複過去讓國人感到不安的所以不管是疫苗備藥或是口罩這個部分能夠提前準備的我會要求衛福部要確實的到位好 院長我想這個用藥顯然現在備量不足我們希望趕快把它補起來好不好我會備齊 會準備備齊"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:30:20 - 15:00:57","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"154922","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（14時30分）謝謝主席，有請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：萬委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：院長好。院長，今天要跟您討論的一些議題其實在上個會期也跟你討論過，但是我們希望今天能有一些進度。在上個會期本席有跟您質詢過，桃園市近年來的人口年增率高達1.32%，可以說是六都最高，也是全臺第一，這個數字沒有變，但是這近五年來，中央統籌分配稅款跟一般性補助款分配給六都的金額，桃園市真的是最低的哦！我們看到在114年度的預算編列當中，統籌稅款再加上一般性的補助款只有438.18億，再度蟬聯六都最低。所以今天我才把這個問題重新再來跟院長討論一次。你看看我們桃園創稅名列前茅，但是我們的補助款是全國倒數第三，扣掉離島，我覺得這對我們桃園是非常不公平的，當然等一下我們可以再來討論財劃法的問題；但是現在我們覺得在對桃園這麼不公平的補助之下，中央還以縣市執行非法定社福支出為理由扣減桃園市1億的補助款，這1億真的非常地多，而且這個數字是全國扣最多的數字。所以我想，院長，這一次您用縣市執行非法定社福支出，其實我們真的要替桃園叫屈，因為地方其實是在執行中央很多的政策，也許中央做得不完善或者中央做不到，地方政府協助來做，但是我們不瞭解為什麼這樣還要遭到扣除補助款？我想我們不能接受啦！同時，我想各縣市都一樣，不管人口結構需求的差異或是政策目標不同，但是根據地方制度法或是財劃法，有關地方政府的社會福利業務可以自行根據因地制宜的差異來把它提出來，以上我講的，院長認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：身為一個最年輕的都市，的確有很多地方值得中央跟地方再多做一些合作，但這個合作的過程也要謹守地方的自治跟財政的紀律……"],["萬委員美玲：好，懂。"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為如果有一些違誤的部分，應該有它的法源依據。"],["萬委員美玲：我們來談，看看桃園市有沒有違反或是不是有遵守。院長，我想請教您一下，您同不同意少子化是國安問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然同意，而且也非常地嚴重。"],["萬委員美玲：當然同意，好，既然是國安問題，就是中央跟地方必須要一起來解決的，但我們看這幾年其實中央做的成果並不好，我不是說中央沒有做，而是這個成果我們可以看得到，從數字上看起來人口也呈現負成長，目前生不如死的狀況我想院長是有掌握的，所以你看我們地方政府也為了要協助中央，或者是我們自己的縣市要去解決，包括提高生育率協助解決國安問題的策略其實非常多，我唸給你聽，有幾個我們桃園市真的做得很好的地方，包括5歲幼兒教育的助學金、好孕專車、凍卵補助、產後憂鬱心理諮商，以及國中小營養午餐免費等等，這以上哪一項不是在因應少子化，為了解決國安問題提出來的一些福利？我不瞭解為什麼今天我們去補中央的不足，我們去做一件對少子化有幫助的事情，對孩子、下一代或是對於產婦、孕婦提高生育率有很多的誘因，那結果呢？我們幫忙解決問題，但我們卻要受到中央這樣的懲罰，還要扣我們的補助稅款，這怎麼對呢？這怎麼會公平呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝在歷屆市長的努力之下，有一些好的制度是一直延續的，比方說對生育的補助，桃園都站在很前面；至於是不是有哪些違誤的部分，是不是請部長說明一下？謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員報告，有關中央統籌分配稅款的部分，人口數是一個指標……"],["萬委員美玲：是不是能夠先提一下為什麼扣我們1億？"],["莊部長翠雲：扣1億的部分是主計總處這邊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分主要是因為它有短絀，然後又增加福利款，而我們在翌年的時候有照監察院給我們裁示，叫我們針對這個部分應該要有一個裁定的標準，所以我們這個部分設定了一個標準、統一的標準，統一大家……"],["萬委員美玲：好，院長，我們來談這個有沒有違反規定、相關的法條或者標準，我們來看喔，我舉剛剛提到我們桃園市有在做的凍卵補助，桃園市在去年推出凍卵的營養金補助之後，我們接著看到臺北市、新北市、新竹、苗栗、雲林都跟進，不打緊，連衛福部在今年年底也預計要推出醫療性的凍卵補助，可見這是一個好的政策，這是第一個。這麼好的政策各縣市跟進，然後衛福部也跟進，我們桃園市推出這樣的政策，其實中央應該要鼓勵才對，不可以拿這個當作扣除我們補助金的一個理由。","再來，主計長也在這裡，我們看到其實從101年度起，我們創設了一個對地方社會福利的預警制度，這有三點的考核衡量，就是有沒有超過現行中央法規的標準、有沒有超過中央所訂的一致性標準，以及第三項地方自行開辦社會福利措施且編列金額大。院長，你大概了解這三項嗎？我們再來看，以上這三項我覺得你們一定會同意嘛，這都是原則性的規範，它沒有一個特定的項目、也沒有一個認定的標準，是都沒有的！還是院長有？沒有嘛，對不對？好，那如果這是……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是各項補助要量力而為。"],["萬委員美玲：量力嘛，對嘛！所以今天我們就是沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：人民會很希望中央、地方政府多給他一些生活上的照顧……"],["萬委員美玲：所以院長，顯然你……"],["卓院長榮泰：但如果政府的……"],["萬委員美玲：對不起，我把它講完啦！我想我們都同意這是一個原則性的規範，量力或者是編列金額大，那到底什麼是大、什麼是小？量力，什麼叫量力？我覺得這個規範其實並沒有明確。","再來，我再舉一個例子，我們現在社會福利支出依據政事別分為五類，分別是社會保險、社會救助、社會服務、國民就業以及醫療保健等等五項分得很清楚，可是我們看到你們糾正桃園市政府的理由之一叫做：把國中小營養午餐的預算列在教科文項下。其實這個是列在教科文項下，你也把它當社會福利的一項，我覺得這個真的是非常擴大解釋！","院長，綜合以上，我想您可能覺得扣這個1億不多，那這個要來懲罰我們，懲罰什麼我們也不知道，但我想你應該不會這樣做啦！可是本席在這裡真的要告訴您，我想桃園市不但過去在財劃法以及補助上面對我們不盡公平，我們都還沒有爭取到一個公平的待遇，結果你又反過來再扣我們錢，這個是我們完全沒辦法接受的啦！何況我們在解決中央的問題。","再者，我再舉另外一個例子，讓你知道我們的財政有多辛苦。囤房稅2.0今年是7月上路，桃園市政府也很配合啊，中央政策我們都配合，所以我們把單一自住稅率跟一年內待銷的房屋稅調降，但是囤房稅我們還是配合嘛，對不對？還是配合做！可是我們這樣計算起來，我們的稅損九千多萬，也就是說，你又扣我1億，囤房稅我配合中央政策又少九千多萬，一來一往2億的預算喔！","院長，我有一個請求，有關財劃法的修正，9月4號財政部已經邀集了各地方政府來徵集意見，雖然之前也有做，這次聽說也獲得了初步分配指標的共識，我們希望行政院能不能儘速，院長，上個會期我也提過，但我希望我們儘速提出我們的版本；同時對於今天我們所討論的非法定社會福利支出去扣減補助款的這個部分，我希望院長能不能承諾說，我們在三個月之內提出檢討，還有能不能提出一些具體的標準，不要再模棱兩可，例如量力、大、小等等，我們有沒有一個比較具體的，三個月之內能不能把它做一個檢討？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，剛剛委員說懲罰性的扣減1億，原意不在懲罰，而是要提醒桃園市政府要健全自己的財務，因為上一年度的決算短絀了63.2億，那下一年度補助增加23.6億，顯然……"],["萬委員美玲：院長，我要提一下，你知道嘛，其實一個縣市政府的財政如你們所說的，不管短絀啦、惡化啦，它的原因絕對不是單一的，它也不是哪一個縣市首長造成……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我們提醒……"],["萬委員美玲：它可能是一個延續性的，但你今天做這樣的懲罰而且用這樣的理由，我們是不能接受的，所以我們能不能夠去檢討一下，到底用這樣的理由去扣除這個補助款合不合理？三個月之內我們做一個檢討報告出來，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們是提醒說要健全財務，上個年度短絀了……"],["萬委員美玲：可以嗎？院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：下個年度又增加補助，那財務只能越來越惡化，我們不希望達到這個目的……"],["萬委員美玲：我知道你的用意，但是我們希望把它做一個檢討，三個月內我們做一個檢討，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：財劃法的部分，請部長再……"],["萬委員美玲：財劃法的部分我們再找時間談，但是這個部分您覺得可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你說補助的部分？"],["萬委員美玲：對，補助款……"],["卓院長榮泰：補助我們一向都有，中央、地方有一個補助的標準在執行，不管是計畫型的或是一般的……"],["萬委員美玲：院長，我想這樣子啦！我在這裡跟您嚴正的表達，您這樣子扣除1億我們不能接受，還有囤房稅9,000萬對桃園來說也很辛苦，所以我們希望是不是日後我們有計畫型的補助？行政院能夠多支持一下可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您提的囤房稅的部分，如果是稅損的話有規定……"],["萬委員美玲：不好意思，這題就先這樣，會後給我一個書面資料跟報告，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的。"],["萬委員美玲：再來，我一樣請教院長，但是這題我真的不知道該問誰，聽說今天郭部長請假，對不對？您准他假我們沒話講，但是今天在這個地方有很多跟經濟部相關的質詢……"],["卓院長榮泰：次長在。"],["萬委員美玲：部長應該是要在的啦！所以我們希望以後院長在准假的這個過程當中能夠更嚴謹一些，尤其這個會期在電價或者是在很多的議題上，經濟部都非常的重要，好，沒關係，我們來繼續……"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我會特別注意，謝謝委員提醒。"],["萬委員美玲：好，那我們繼續。除了我剛剛說的，對桃園的諸多不公平之外，我們要錢你沒給我們錢，我們要補助你沒有給我們補助，但你給我們很多什麼缺電、跳電等等，從今年4月開始起5個月之內，桃園的停、跳電高達178次，約27萬戶受到很大的影響，其實怨聲載道，我相信這個民怨，身為一個行政院長，應該要去重視跟解決。","上個會期的時候，我有要求經濟部要成立外部的停跳電事故調查委員會，當時也承諾會成立，4個月過去了，不曉得現在這個委員會成立了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我在520之後，我記得6月我就去到桃園看看台電現場在維修的部分，我知道因為桃園人口增加很快，很多的負擔是增加的……"],["萬委員美玲：院長，不好意思，因為今天有很多議題要跟您討論，我們能不能根據重點，就是這個外部調查委員會我們有成立起來嗎？有還是沒有？"],["陳次長正祺：經濟部已經開始……"],["萬委員美玲：有還是沒有？"],["陳次長正祺：我們已經請台電公司評估。"],["萬委員美玲：所以有還是沒有？"],["陳次長正祺：我不知道部長……"],["萬委員美玲：目前有還是沒有？"],["陳次長正祺：我們有在調查。"],["萬委員美玲：目前有成立還是沒有成立？"],["陳次長正祺：我們有成立一個機制……"],["萬委員美玲：好，那你不用說，你可以先下去，因為今天顯然問你後面關於經濟部的所有事情，大概都是這種回答，因為他沒有辦法了解，然後也沒有辦法代表經濟部的部長，所以今天我想關於經濟部的事情，我還是先請教院長，如果沒辦法回答的，那就是會後給我資料，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：這個外部停跳電事故調查委員會，之前有說要成立起來，我們就積極把它成立起來，因為調查事故的原因很重要，而且會有公信力，我想這個對大家都好。台電董事長曾文生8月的時候他說了一句，桃園以北500萬瓦以上的大型數據中心，一律不核供，這句話真的引起軒然大波啦！請問一下院長原因是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，包括國外知名的廠商、大廠要來臺灣設立任何的資訊中心、研發中心、設廠，我們都歡迎，但也要顧慮到我們整個平均的分配，包括土地的取得、包括能源的使用跟人力的配置等等，我希望在國家整體策略的要求底下，我們來做這樣的規劃，能夠跟國外的大廠取得協議。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，但是台電跟經濟部講的，這個缺電的問題、電網的問題，您就是沒有提到，我想我來提一下，當時除了說桃園以北不核供之外，同時還講了一個，這也是經濟部說的，他說我們還是鼓勵科技業，但是請它優先到支持設立電廠的縣市，請它到支持設立電廠的縣市，我們今天來看看桃園有沒有支持設立電廠，我們看到光是桃園地區有13個燃氣發電機組、2個水力機組，而且再依據台電自己官網的數據，昨天桃園各機組的淨發電占總發電量的18.23%，也就是說全臺發電量我們占將近五分之一。","我們再看到，現在桃園也正在建三接天然氣的接收站，剛剛提到有13座燃氣機組，也就是說我們其實是一個燃氣發電的重點城市，你看桃園人用肺來幫忙大家發電，結果當你稅收扣我們的、當你補助款不給我們、我們要自己拼經濟的時候，你現在說不給我們電，你說希望科技業到支持發電的縣市去，桃園就是支持啊！你怎麼那麼矛盾呢？我們是支持的，所以部長，我沒有要給經濟部回答，因為他也答不出個所以然來。但我今天要跟院長講，院長，如果台電、經濟部在這種說法上面自行矛盾，光我的桃園我是不能接受的，我們這麼多的發電在桃園，桃園人犧牲，然後還要有這些空污等等，結果呢？你剝奪掉它可以自行把經濟做得更好的機會，所以我不太能接受，我想這樣的一個限制令，院長能不能在這邊收回這個成命，讓桃園有機會自己做經濟的發展？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，它不是限制令，它是在設廠的過程當中，我們就我們的能源提供給廠商一個參考跟標準，桃園包括剛剛委員所說的三接工程也在積極地進行當中，但桃園的土地以及桃園的能源能不能接得上？另外一個問題就是剛剛委員先前說的，桃園的人口增加很快速，我們所有的電網，雖然現在極力地在做安全的韌性，但能不能在短時間內，尤其是資料庫用電量之大，我們必須要做一個衡平。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，講到電網，執政8年，今年第9年了，現在還在講電網有問題，那之前怎麼都不修，對不對？所以院長，我今天真的就是覺得中央對桃園真的不公平，我們希望在這個部分可以重新檢討，能夠來支持桃園，不要把桃園列進去，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在總統指示下，5,600億的電網韌性加強，10年的工程，我們會在2028年儘量把它完成，包括經濟部、包括台電，都對這項工程極力地合作。"],["萬委員美玲：我們希望每一個部會跟著院長的提醒，有漂亮的數字，但數字要落實才是成果，現在我們看了太多漂亮的數字了。","再問一題，關於SRF，6月份的時候，桃園市政府就是撤銷，但是經濟部在6月的時候撤銷了桃園市政府廢止3家SRF入園的許可，現在張善政市長在8月8號二度撤銷SRF的入園許可，請教一下，現在院長的態度是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然這個是有其需要，但是尊重地方政府對於整個策略，但現在……"],["萬委員美玲：所以這次你會尊重張善政市長的決定，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：彭部長今天有一些新的說明，今天才發生，我請他說明。"],["萬委員美玲：對不起，院長，所以您剛剛那樣的說法是會尊重張善政市長的決定？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然我們希望在衡平的狀況底下能夠有新的說法，大家再重新來考慮也是可以，當然地方要設，地方政府的態度是絕對重要。"],["萬委員美玲：所以經濟部跟環境部，對於桃園市政府撤銷的這個部分，你們這一次一樣會再撤銷嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們給彭部長說明，今天他有一個新的標準跟說法出來。"],["萬委員美玲：給您30秒。"],["彭部長啓明：好，報告委員，我們中午的時候開了一個記者會，因為我們體檢了全臺灣的SRF廠商，桃園市也有一些SRF的製造商，也有使用的，我們目前用的標準是全世界最嚴格的標準，每一個國家有用SRF的，我們就用它最嚴格的標準，包含重金屬等等，所以我們已經訂出標準，同時也告知桃園市政府了。"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，您是說用最嚴格的標準去監督它的意思，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯、沒錯。"],["萬委員美玲：現在的意思是，今天問院長，所以環境部跟經濟部你們主張要求桃園市政府要接受這3家SRF的入園，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是主張要求，是用新的這個方式……"],["萬委員美玲：還是你們推薦？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟地方政府再來商量。"],["萬委員美玲：我們不同意啊！桃園市政府現在不同意啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們因為有新的作為，容許有這個……"],["萬委員美玲：行政院的立場是希望它入園嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望能夠解決垃圾問題……"],["萬委員美玲：每一個人都希望啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：用最新、最好的方法來解決各地的垃圾問題。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，我能理解了，依據這樣子的答詢，我想你們的態度還是跟以前一樣，就是你們希望SRF進來，但你們又不願意負責任，我再一次表達，全桃園市的市民還是抗議的，所以我們也是不接受的。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實SRF很清楚，現在有新的方法，而且也符合國際標準的。"],["萬委員美玲：對不起，院長，不好意思，我們這一題到這裡結束……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會不負責任，否則彭部長不會做出一個新的說法。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，我們請交通部的陳世凱部長上來。"],["主席：麻煩請交通部長備詢。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，真的事事要替桃園市多著想，真的！我覺得地方執政真的不要去分藍綠……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告……"],["萬委員美玲：大家都是為地方，就算桃園市民，其實也是我們中華民國的國民，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：在院會當中，桃園市的列席代表跟我的對話是最多的。"],["萬委員美玲：陳部長……"],["陳部長世凱：是，委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：今天有好一點嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：一直都很好。"],["萬委員美玲：那天在委員會緊張嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：還好、還好。"],["萬委員美玲：今天好多了？"],["陳部長世凱：還好、還好。"],["萬委員美玲：我想因為院長站在您旁邊，您應該更有安全感一些。在委員會的時候，你有說過你上任之後有到桃園來一次，私下來過一次嘛！來訪友的還是來公出的？"],["陳部長世凱：我坐火車。"],["萬委員美玲：嗯？"],["陳部長世凱：我搭火車。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我是這樣建議啦，以後真的有來桃園，你是不是也可以通知一下？其實我們6位委員真的很願意陪你去看一看我們桃園市……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，那一次是我自己私下搭火車去看一看而已，不敢驚擾委員。"],["萬委員美玲：沒關係，我希望你能夠排時間來桃園。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["萬委員美玲：桃園有太多的重大建設，需要部長能夠儘快去了解，尤其是鐵路地下化，這個部長有了解到嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，有了解。"],["萬委員美玲：這個不只是桃園的重大交通建設，同時也是全國、我們國家的重大交通建設，不過4個月前在這裡，其實當時我總質詢的時候就有提到了，工程嚴重延宕，非常嚴重地延宕，現在不管是土建標還是機電標，目前還有16個標是沒有標出去的，4個月的時間，1個標案都沒有標出去，其實這是很嚴重的。再來，我們看到，工程進度只要慢，就是在凌遲我們桃園市的市民，而且增加交通黑暗期，我想您待過臺中，你也知道，其實我們任何的重大交通建設都是要快一點。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["萬委員美玲：這4個月當中，我們這個工程的進度原本應該是要從35.33%提高到37.5%，這個進度是要能夠增加2.1%的，可是我們沒有，視同我們落後的進度從4%擴大到5%，所以還是不斷地在落後。比較嚴重的問題來了，總工程款1,048億，現在整個進度大概三成多，但我們1,048億花完了、用光了，但用到哪裡去，我是希望部長之後能夠給我們一個說明跟報告這1,048億用到哪去了。我們現在粗估還要769億，近800億。我想請教院長，經費不足的部分，我們現在有沒有編入明年度的預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個牽扯到桃園市，甚至跟新北市都有相關，中央跟地方在這種財務分配的比例下，是有一定的標準。"],["萬委員美玲：好，院長，我們講到這個財務分配比例，之前桃園市跟中央的分配是我們25%、中央75%，但是我必須要講，在這1,048億的基礎之下，我們同意這樣做，因為我們衡酌過我們的財政狀況，現在你又要多增加將近800億，桃園市現在的財政雪上加霜，你如果還要我們再去負擔這25%，我想我們是不能接受的，所以我也希望跟院長、部長來溝通跟請命，這769億我們希望能夠由中央全數來支持，不要再讓桃園有這麼大的負擔了，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長請。"],["陳部長世凱：好。報告委員，我們增加的經費，除了是物價指數的問題，物價調高了不少，其實還有一些部分是因為平鎮南延，你應該也都很清楚，那個部分就增加了一百多億，然後還有一些是文資挖掘、發掘的部分，確實也造成了一些延宕，也是經費增加，所以這個部分其實有一些是地方的建議，我們照地方的建議來做的。"],["萬委員美玲：我理解了，但是部長，我真的要跟你講，當初這個25%，其實我們都覺得很委屈了。我們來看到，其實其他的縣市也是有鐵路立體化負擔比例的分配，花蓮是0，臺南12.5%，嘉義14%，對不對？我舉的這些都是六都，而且我要講六都的臺南市，臺南市的統籌分配稅款還比我們高，但是你看，它來跟中央做分配的時候，其實12.5%是我們的一半，是不是？之前的25%，我們是談好的嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這是談好的。"],["萬委員美玲：但是現在增加的部分，其實也沒有桃園市政府的責任在裡面，所以我們希望請求部長跟院長能夠重新去思考，會後部長再來跟我們做一個討論，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["萬委員美玲：最後一題，我想要請邱泰源部長。"],["主席：麻煩請衛福部備詢。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，我想我就先提，去年112年5月1號起，新冠肺炎就從第五類的法定傳染病調整為第四類。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：指揮中心在這個時候也解散了，當時的發言人，也是現在疾管署的副署長羅一鈞也說，把新冠肺炎的等級調整成跟流感相當，中重症或併發症才需通報，同時也有很多的醫學專家也都認定新冠肺炎流感化，您同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，它已經成為一個第四類的傳染病。"],["萬委員美玲：OK，部長同意嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["萬委員美玲：沒問題嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：好，今年9月開始新冠再度比照流感併發症，我們改名為新冠併發重症，而且也放寬了通報的時效，綜合衛福部的這些作法，我們可不可以說，這是象徵新冠走向流感化，或者比照流感來辦理，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員……"],["萬委員美玲：簡單的說一下就好，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我們還是有……"],["萬委員美玲：好，沒關係，部長，我們來……"],["邱部長泰源：繼續支持新冠肺炎防治的所有工作。"],["萬委員美玲：我們再來慢慢討論，如果說我們現在知道，就是我們把它降為第4類嘛！然後比照流感，但是我想就在大家都以為現在疫情已經過去或者穩定的新冠肺炎，事實上它其實是悄悄的捲土重來中……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：而且進入到第6波的大流行，在6月底、7月初，也就是我們說的27週、28週，甚至於達到一個高峰，單週的急診就診人數高達十二萬八千多人，單週最高新增了987例的重症，同時還有104例的死亡，其實這個數目是滿怵目驚心的。現在雖然疫情又一波，因為上上下下嘛！現在又停了下來，稍微降下一點，比較平穩了，可是9月初的單週還有1.2萬人是中重症，所以面對整個新冠病毒不斷的變異，我想我們還是要做好準備，兩位都同意吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我們再來看，根據行政院110年核定的新興傳染病暨流感大流行的計畫裡面，依據計畫中防疫物資儲備跟管理的指標，我們對於流感的抗病毒藥物是必須要儲備可供10%到15%的國人來使用，差不多在235萬到350萬人份。我請教一下，如果新冠現在按照剛剛兩位所認可的流感化，不曉得我們新冠抗病毒藥物目前的儲備量是多少？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，首先在這邊還是謝謝委員過去對防疫工作多年來的關心跟幫忙，有關於剛剛您提的問題，因為抗病毒的藥其實滿貴，而且有效期，所以我們一定要控制得相當好，所以目前我們抗病毒藥物是充裕無虞……"],["萬委員美玲：好，等一下，充裕無虞嘛！那我們來看9月11號我們自己發布的新聞，說採購了80萬份的新冠抗病毒藥物，其中30萬瑞德西韋，可是15萬年底才要到貨，另外15萬是開口合約；50萬的倍拉維，40萬人份是年底才要到貨，10萬是開口合約；另外兩萬的莫納皮拉韋也是開口合約。所以現在看到事實上我們的庫存到目前為止大概83萬份左右，占總人口數大概3.5個百分點而已，如果我們一樣是流感化，其實這樣的備藥，我覺得打了一個大大的問號。","我們再來看，因為現在馬上10月份了，要進入秋冬了，疫情會不會捲土再來，會不會突然間有很大的一個變化，疫情會不會突然高漲？我們不知道，可是我們就是要做好準備嘛！何況我們有以前的防疫經驗……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["萬委員美玲：我覺得我們再來看一個數字，這個數字是疾管署統計的，今年4月我們新冠累積的重症個案數高達9,900例，這個數字是同期流感併發症700餘例的14倍；同時新冠死亡大概1,000例左右，也是流感死亡個案100例的11倍。所以我覺得如果我們都把它看成流感化，那何以我們防疫的藥物儲備差那麼多？我們對待流感跟對待新冠的SOP好像也差非常多喔！所以我想因應後新冠的疫情，衛福部看起來好像是不是也沒有編列預算來購買快篩跟抗病毒的藥品，有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我首先謝謝委員透過這麼重要寶貴的時間，提醒國人不要掉以輕心，這個是非常感激。新冠跟流感我們現在同步會從10月1號開始，第一階段針對65歲以上的國人予以施打；第二階段11月1號開始，6個月以上的小孩可以打新冠疫苗，流感是在50到64歲，我們既然排出了這樣的期程，我會要求衛福部一定要備足充備的藥源跟疫苗。"],["萬委員美玲：我請教一下，我們到底明年有沒有編預算要購買快篩跟新冠的抗病毒藥品，有沒有編這個預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經有這個階段要施打這個疫苗了，所以既然提出這個計畫，衛福部就要……"],["萬委員美玲：我先請教一下，有沒有編這個預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：衛福部就要準備充裕。"],["萬委員美玲：那現在有沒有編這個預算，明年要買這個藥？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為現在目前大概倍拉維儲量有26萬份，這樣可以用42個月以上；瑞德西韋可以用9個月以上……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，這個剛剛我已經有提過，你不用再重唸一次。"],["邱部長泰源：我們年底會再採購一批，應該就可以來……"],["萬委員美玲：所以明年沒有編列預算，對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：明年度就暫時不用編列購買預算。"],["萬委員美玲：暫時沒有編列，但是我覺得這還是值得我們擔憂。院長，我們今天在這邊不是要指責或責怪什麼做了、什麼沒有做，我覺得這件事非常的重要，我們必須要去看待它，我們要知道現在如果備藥不足、用藥又有受限，因為我們目前用藥是有限制嘛！備藥不足、用藥又有受限，未來中重症或者死亡率就有可能會提高，所以這一點本席在這邊……今天這麼多議題為什麼這一題非常重要？馬上秋冬就要開始了，我們希望把用藥備足，然後未來用藥能夠放寬，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員，再次謝謝透過這樣的機會來提醒國人。衛福部一定要記取過去的例子跟經驗，在往後的時間不要重蹈過去讓國人感到不安的情況，所以不管是疫苗、備藥或是口罩這個部分能夠提前準備的，我會要求衛福部要確實的到位。"],["萬委員美玲：好，院長，我想現在用藥顯然備量不足啦！我們希望趕快把它補齊來，這樣好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會備齊，會準備備齊。"],["邱部長泰源：一定備齊。"],["卓院長榮泰：我要求衛福部做到。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第26號鍾佳濱委員質詢。特別跟院會報告，鍾佳濱委員剛剛手術完畢，今天是負傷質詢，質詢的精神令人感佩，祝福佳濱委員早日身體康復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","陳雪生","吳春城","林俊憲","萬美玲","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","林月琴","呂玉玲","王正旭","丁學忠"],"page_start":21,"meetingDate":["2024-09-27"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00002","1137601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137601_00003"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}