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訴處理流程指引同時辦理分區先導製作是為學習課程及研習協助機關掌握新法修正的重點持續辦理勤修制度先導至特殊輪班輪休及平均工時較高的機關實施實地訪視瞭解基層同仁的意見以落實公務員健康權的保障"},{"start":2089.449,"end":2112.89,"text":"在照顧軍公教員工部分．考量今年各項財經指標今朝正向發展．已簽獲行政院合併114年根據辦理軍公教員工待遇調整3個百分比．同時配合政府業務發展及因應機關的需求．我們已經合併工程人員待遇提升方案．以利工程人員流產攬財．"},{"start":2115.185,"end":2140.134,"text":"另外本總處應用AI新興技術建置生成式AI查詢系統同時透過單一整合平台買Data持續擴充以優化個人資料服務功能以服務達193萬人次本總處作為公部門能力支援管理的幕僚角色將以AI行動創新組織以人力永續及大力提升及合理化三大市政策略"},{"start":2140.754,"end":2152.026,"text":"推動多元能力支援管理措施協助各個機關穩健運作落實永續能力發展進行各位委員繼續予以支持以上報告進行指教"},{"start":2155.862,"end":2181.113,"text":"好謝謝那麼機關代表報告完畢相關的書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄接下來我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10時30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位黃委員國昌總召發言"},{"start":2190.642,"end":2190.842,"text":"謝謝主席。"},{"start":2205.819,"end":2233.947,"text":"人事總署的書面報告也好你剛剛口頭報告也好不斷地在強調政府在推動AI特別是人事總署所扮演的角色今年7月30號的時候部會首長的AI共識營是不是人事總署辦的報告委員是我們人事總署跟數位發展部合辦這個部會首長AI共識營總共有幾個人參加"},{"start":2236.215,"end":2240.805,"text":"所有部會首長除了兩位請假以外其他都有參加你有參加嗎"},{"start":2245.976,"end":2266.861,"text":"在這個部會首長AI貢士營,賴清德總統說要打造台灣成為智慧國家嗎?你還記得吧?當然,是!這是你們辦的嗎?是!是!因為我喜歡務實,我不喜歡務虛有時候我們的政府講一堆口號,現實上是不是有弱勢恐怕問題都很大"},{"start":2268.024,"end":2276.094,"text":"我們的賴總統說要打造台灣成為智慧國家他具體的講有三個步驟要先做哪三個步驟第一個我覺得最重要的是人才人才還是最重要那第二個呢"},{"start":2286.431,"end":2304.378,"text":"再來就是一些法規面的一個成就第二個是法規阿第三個呢第三個是基礎環境的建構比如像泰德之類的來賴總統講的三大步驟跟你剛剛報告的內容顯然有些錯誤總統在講話要仔細聽那要不然你辦這個AI首長公事你幹嘛總統自此都沒有仔細聽這麼重要的指示"},{"start":2314.929,"end":2333.104,"text":"我們的總統從上而下告訴所有的部會首長打造台灣成為智慧國家的三個步驟我剛簡單一問你顯然沒有在聽嘛阿沒有在聽花納稅的錢辦這個部會首長跟他共事你是在做什麼做秀嗎做秀嗎總統指示的內容你們大家都有去參加"},{"start":2343.8,"end":2372.637,"text":"沒有一個放在心裡面啊還是總統這樣指示是錯的來請教人事長我這裡跟委員報告一下總統的指示到各個部會我們是要把它轉化成委員剛才講的要務實不要務虛是所以我剛才講的所以你覺得總統講這三大步驟是不是務虛他講的是從另外一個角度來講是從另外一個角度嗎是所以你的角度跟總統的角度不太一樣是嗎"},{"start":2373.649,"end":2390.461,"text":"完全一樣只是完全一樣完全一樣好沒有關係啦是不是完全一樣有聽尋達人心裡都有一把尺第二個到目前為止我們花了這麼多的公務預算花了這麼多的精神喊了這麼多的口號人事總處也一直在推AI嘛"},{"start":2392.588,"end":2408.485,"text":"以具體的來講導入AI以後效率提升了多少?效率提升了多少?大概兩個層次一個是公務處理的時間速度一個是人力的節省以這兩個指標來講目前具體的成效如何?"},{"start":2410.225,"end":2428.616,"text":"我跟委員報告因為人事總處主要的服務的對象是屬於內部單位在行政效力的提升上面大概可以達到大概三到四成我舉一個例子就是像我們上一年開發了一個人事法規生存式的一個查詢"},{"start":2430.89,"end":2454.031,"text":"那原來的公務同仁人事人員他要去查這個資料有時候要翻了很多的資料還有法律跟案例這個人事法規生成AI查詢系統花多少錢?好可不可以開放給一般民眾使用"},{"start":2455.179,"end":2456.74,"text":"因為我看你們開發這個系統人事法規很複雜嘛"},{"start":2479.381,"end":2501.624,"text":"用AI去查我覺得這是一個正確的方向嘛但做得好不好總是要經過檢證嘛所以我就上你們人事總處的網站去看啊我找了半天了以後原來只有在處理人事法規的同仁可以用嘛封閉的系統只有人事法規的人可以用而那其他關心人事法規的人為什麼不能用"},{"start":2502.952,"end":2531.576,"text":"既然是花納稅人的錢開發的系統AI做有他的界限最後都要人做最後的判斷這個我都了解但既然已經花了納稅人的錢下去做為什麼不開放給一般的人都可以用我很好奇我也可以上去用啊我對這件事情有興趣我也可以上去用啊那用完了以後你們花了納稅人的錢做出來的系統能不能用結果好不好"},{"start":2532.932,"end":2562.026,"text":"大家一起來檢證一起來修改嘛所以你剛講了雖然是法規生成式的AI查詢系統我覺得非常好啊可以開放給一般人使用嗎我跟委員報告一下因為考慮到整個使用族群還有資訊安全的考量委員所提的所以提一下這跟資訊安全有什麼關係有有有因為我在落地執行的時候我很多的法規事實上現在我在查的是法規又不是個人"},{"start":2562.796,"end":2591.862,"text":"如果是法規我們現在還有其他的Q&A我們會有整理人事法規在網站上Q&A就不是AI嘛我覺得重點是要滿足使用者的需求不是為了AI而AI啊對啊我不可以是使用者喔可以使用者啦問題是我必須盡量來滿足使用者的需求對嘛所以你所界定的使用者只有在處理人事法規的相關的人員嘛"},{"start":2593.12,"end":2620.865,"text":"阿對於我們公務體系的人事法規有疑問有興趣的人為什麼不能用這就是我的問題啦這 這個問題喔我想我們大概分兩個階段啦第一個階段就是來沒關係啦我時間的關係我也不給你拖啦請你回去審慎人言議好誰說可以開放給一般的人使用好 OK可以嗎可以可以好我們繼續往下看喔"},{"start":2622.742,"end":2633.729,"text":"光電的弊案阿 全民生物痛絕阿光電的弊案裡面 結果呢台南七股 綠洋光電弊案我有經濟部的官員阿 通風報信違法核發電籌許可結果大家後來發現阿 他是模範公務員"},{"start":2646.598,"end":2671.633,"text":"他是模範公務員2022年的模範公務員不知廉潔自恥公正執法違背法令迎合不肖的光電業者助紂為虐哇 這個用詞重喔這個用詞非常的重喔對於這樣子的一個模範公務員來人事行政總處現在的態度是什麼要不要撤銷獎項追回獎金"},{"start":2673.146,"end":2698.382,"text":"報告委員那個林文信先生我們已經接到經濟部的通知在今年的9月4號調整為9到檢認失職等待由降下來第二個就是我們目前還要等法院的判決以後這一些他得的獎項還有獎金還有他領的這一些全部都會撤回所以要等到什麼時候"},{"start":2699.056,"end":2703.038,"text":"有相關的疑慮還沒有確定之前先降等至於說模範公務員的部分要等到三省確定才要處理你的態度是不是這樣"},{"start":2725.118,"end":2736.899,"text":"目前我是覺得還要從當事人權益的保障這個重大的事情你撤銷一個人的榮譽的話坦白講要省 要省慎一點啦"},{"start":2737.796,"end":2755.749,"text":"我這樣講好了啦降等的標準撤銷優秀公務員的標準你們人事行政總處自己去想清楚啦自己去想清楚啦可以降等但不能撤銷模範公務員這個道理是什麼可能請人事長再回去考慮一下"},{"start":2756.209,"end":2784.925,"text":"可以這項謀犯公務只是timing的問題最重要是timing的問題沒有關係啦你還沒有判決界定你大家都在看嘛我們就靜靜的等嘛我已經把問題提出來了嘛要怎麼處理權力在你們手上嘛我也沒有辦法逼你怎麼處理嘛我只是提醒你這件事啊權力在你手上嘛看你什麼時候要處理嘛上一次在這邊請教你的軍公教條新要有基層的代表"},{"start":2785.845,"end":2815.197,"text":"要有法制化你上次承諾今年一定會把法制化完成你還記得吧是是嘛好那就很怪喔因為你上次跟我講說今年年底以前要完成可是我看到你今天的報告一個字也沒提耶是準備要跳票了嗎不會跳票我們等一下還是會報告不會跳票不會所以今年年底以前可以完成法制化"},{"start":2818.044,"end":2819.546,"text":"會送到來?"},{"start":2819.546,"end":2821.208,"text":"一定會送上來年底以前會送來?"},{"start":2821.208,"end":2836.245,"text":"會送到來另外一個我要幫一些比較辛苦基層的測量助理跟人事長請命他們40年沒有調整年功強了今年3月跟我們黨團成情"},{"start":2838.806,"end":2867.928,"text":"那我們也按照我們政府的體制跟相關的部會找來研議內政部會議通過地政測量人員薪資的調整這個是今年5月發生的事情結果條也沒有條多少40年沒有條他們要求也很卑微也很合理從2000到5000塊40年條漲3000塊我老實講看了讓人覺得很心酸我們也找了內政部了"},{"start":2868.869,"end":2887.259,"text":"然後但我們現在的進度是說7月9號內政部含爆薪資調整方案那個人總現在處理的進度是怎麼樣我跟委員報告一下7月9號內政部含爆行政院之後我們現在在會相關的機關那還要會多久"},{"start":2888.086,"end":2915.498,"text":"我們會盡力去催看10月上旬就會要出來10月上旬嗎今天是9月30號嘛所以你講的10月上旬應該是10月15號以前吧對對對因為這些齁是基層的同仁啦我知道相對剝奪感很重啊他們看到台鐵的局長啊變成國營事業的董事長一口氣調多少五萬多塊他40天沒調啊兩千到五千塊拜託"},{"start":2917.955,"end":2943.356,"text":"人事長將心比心阿幫我們基層的同仁做愈快一點可以嗎可以我這裡10月15號以前喔可以喔可以喔好好謝謝好謝謝黃董昭謝謝蘇委人事長那麼由於議事錄先前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定現在我們先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":2946.015,"end":2950.518,"text":"沒有,好,議事錄確定接下來我們請羅委員志強有請人事長"},{"start":2964.335,"end":2988.229,"text":"委員早 人事長早 我覺得有一個問題問你非常合適就是有關於首長尊嚴跟文官尊嚴的問題 問你應該非常合適因為你也是我們人事長嘛 對不對 全國公務人員還有我們為國家服務的人 你要幫他們來爭取尊嚴 沒錯吧 是我想請問你 總統會打電話給你嗎"},{"start":2991.564,"end":3015.231,"text":"不會不會啊那你會打電話給總統嗎我沒有他的電話你沒有他的電話是那你會不會覺得說基本上你跟總統關係是不是不好啊因為總統有打電話給環境部部長啊我覺得我會接受到來自行政院院長那邊的指示對非常好你做好的方式你如果有總統電話你會打給他嗎"},{"start":3017.193,"end":3017.213,"text":"總統會罵你嗎?"},{"start":3030.962,"end":3036.284,"text":"他會提點一些事情提點一些事情會像衛福部長說總統去罵這個環境部長那樣去罵人嗎是不是我沒有在場我不曉得他們是怎麼罵的罵的形容是一種形容詞啊對對對因為我直接講我們的我們的那個彭部長他說總統不是罵他總值要他這個"},{"start":3054.153,"end":3055.795,"text":"更積極一點 更勇於認識一點"},{"start":3066.93,"end":3084.344,"text":"我覺得我對很多事情都是正面在思考我覺得他就是在就像好像就是長輩在提醒對行事情你要特別注意我覺得是好事另外一個一樣我剛才問過你見過總統對不對那總統你在見總統的場合總統進來你會起立嗎"},{"start":3091.707,"end":3117.799,"text":"起立這是一個基本的禮貌基本禮貌但如果總統的秘書總統的幕僚跟你講說今天這個場合很輕鬆啦帶總統進來的時候不用起立你還會起立嗎我還是會起立你還是會起立那總統今天進來對其他聽了總統的幕僚秘書說不用起立的人然後這個生氣了然後摔文件那你覺得這樣的情緒管理是好的是正確的嗎"},{"start":3118.843,"end":3138.033,"text":"我沒有在場我就沒有辦法來回答我直接跟你說啦跟人事長說啦我們所有的首長都是國家的棟樑跟人才沒錯吧來是為國家服務的啦對不對不是來當奴才任人家所謂的把尊嚴踩在地上嘛對不對"},{"start":3140.081,"end":3155.882,"text":"人跟人之間相互尊重是最基本的更何況是對行政首長所以我這邊也真的奉勸賴清德總統情緒管理EQ要加強一下所有不只是將官"},{"start":3157.133,"end":3171.213,"text":"包括環境部長彭啟明包括文事長在內包括這些我們國之棟樑我們的一些文官首長其實都是為國家奉獻服務的這點沒錯吧為國家奉獻服務沒錯吧"},{"start":3174.763,"end":3188.194,"text":"我們當公僕本來就是應該要做這些事情所以我這邊真的勸勸我們的賴清德總統最近火氣比較大一點看看要不要喝個清草茶降降溫不要把這個首長降官"},{"start":3189.815,"end":3190.856,"text":"今年3月的時候針對公務人員非常關心未來調整薪資的問題那你記得是什麼事情嗎?"},{"start":3214.818,"end":3236.115,"text":"調心法制化的問題調心法制化的問題還有就是軍公教待遇審議委員會要不要納入基層員工代表那記得人事長那時候怎麼回答的嗎我跟委員報告我們大概6月有找相關的Stateholder來開會那現在基本主軸大概有兩個方向一個是條帶的指標是"},{"start":3239.318,"end":3239.338,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":3268.69,"end":3295.192,"text":"現在還在中整大家的意見當中那至於那個委員會的代表我們原來有納進增加世衛公教人員的基層的代表各兩位阿他們也是有期待說能不能再多一點我們原來的一個Community我們現在就是17變成21位那這21位裡面到底要增加多少"},{"start":3295.572,"end":3297.593,"text":"所以我們的基層員工納入代表已經在做了"},{"start":3315.071,"end":3325.897,"text":"主要就是兩大方向一個是條帶的已經進到我們的審議委員會裡面了嗎進去代表了嗎已經納入一個諮詢委員會有有審議委員會呢"},{"start":3329.339,"end":3346.791,"text":"未來的審議委員會可能就不需要存在了就是改成諮詢委員會嗎對 諮詢委員會然後擴大把基層的公務員帶來拉近因為我覺得這樣會比較讓更多人可以來參與不要讓他們感覺好像是少數我們在做黑箱的這樣"},{"start":3348.143,"end":3362.656,"text":"所以我跟人事長講基本上我覺得公務員的心聲要聽進去因為我們想說基層員工代表其實代表比較廣大的公務員心聲那如果能夠把他們代表聲音放到我們的薪資調議的意見諮詢的機制裡面的話我覺得對我們這樣的公務員的調心我覺得意見會更全面 對不對"},{"start":3369.602,"end":3397.561,"text":"但是另外一個我們講說法制化的部分像我剛剛聽那個這個我們人事長講已經在開始在做在做在做嘛但沒做完對不對因為整個還要收集收集還要簽我們還要還要進行還要進行公告啊我提醒人事長一件事如果說我們是今年3月才跟你講這件事情你跟我講說還有很多的作業研議的話我可以理解啦"},{"start":3398.598,"end":3409.954,"text":"但這個議題是今年3月才出來的議題嗎公務員新知法之話是今年3月才出現的議題嗎因為我們現在坦白講是屬於在收尾的階段了"},{"start":3410.987,"end":3435.212,"text":"我希望趕快收尾事實上我不希望變成是像過去8年的這個所謂的嚴當跟反覆事實上在2016年2017年立法院法治局的研究報告以及監察院2018年的調查報告都有說出拖延過久有欠積極已經拖8年那麼我們不要再繼續在等8年好不好"},{"start":3436.67,"end":3457.689,"text":"我可以吧?做得到?我的目標是...今年年底嗎?年底要送到...對啊對啊我沒躲幾個月了齁所以剛才那個命題應該是不存在喔這命題存在啦只是希望你用你的積極性解決它而已所以我是期免人事長不要每次加薪好像要搞一個黃恩浩蕩一樣他去仰望我們總統比席"},{"start":3458.45,"end":3471.861,"text":"我覺得不需要加薪是跟著物價跟著社會環境跟著其他的整個加薪的幅度公務員加薪應該是一個理所當然對不對堂堂正正的事情嘛對不對"},{"start":3472.861,"end":3492.654,"text":"沒錯吧我覺得不需要任何的恩典啦這跟恩典無關係啦這個就是我們就是已經逐步把它法制化為什麼我們要逐步法制化的原因也在這裡嗎就是跟恩典就是有關係你才要把它法制化我不要再仰望一個每一個每一個我講的也不是賴清德總統啊抱歉"},{"start":3494.315,"end":3508.065,"text":"我講也包括以前的總統啊陳水扁馬英九或是說今天蔡英文我們就是法制化就是不要讓這個事情變成只是仰望一個人的上意嘛對不對那變成說今天按照社會情勢該給公務員就給嘛沒錯吧"},{"start":3512.299,"end":3532.156,"text":"事實上我的角色就是要幫所有公務人員謀求最大的福利反正總而言之我希望我們的人事長就是照你所說的今年年底能夠把這件事情完成公務人員的基層的員工代表進到我們的薪資的諮詢機制裡面"},{"start":3534.097,"end":3555.704,"text":"加上公務人員的調心不用再說今天去看一個人的喜好好像給了你就是他對你的恩典一樣而變成是今天非常有尊嚴的然後按照我們整個社會情勢做一個法制化的調整這兩件事情我也是非常期勉就是我們任市長能夠在"},{"start":3558.485,"end":3568.629,"text":"今年就把它完成 已經做了一件 第二件把它做完一起來守護 捍衛我們公務同仁的尊嚴好不好謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝羅委員 謝謝蘇人事長接下來請林委員施名 質詢好 謝謝張偉 我們請人事長好 請蘇人事長"},{"start":3590.483,"end":3603.83,"text":"早安首先跟人事長來就教有關於我們在公部門設置職場托育設施的相關的議題像那個我先看先的業務報告當然這個"},{"start":3608.147,"end":3627.5,"text":"提到相關的一個說明但是我還是想了解一下就是說對於我們這個陳院長他在上上個會期就講說政府要設立一個兒童的照顧專責的機關要這個人事總處要跟其他相關的部會一起來協議嗎"},{"start":3629.841,"end":3640.227,"text":"我們知道新竹縣3個月在竹北就發生了一個孽嬰事件托育人員將幼兒綁在椅子上長達數個小時而且予以言語羞辱所以國內其實孽嬰的事件未曾間斷過"},{"start":3652.202,"end":3669.233,"text":"所以本席想在這邊想知道就是說我們為了因應少子化的現況在推動公部門的設置職場的托育設施那是否有這個公告相關的設置參考之意"},{"start":3671.375,"end":3684.748,"text":"因為我們事實上過去這段時間跟衛福部、教育部我們都有做這樣的一個宣導還有相關的資訊都有公開那截至到目前為止我們總共脫陰脫幼的設置總共設了195處"},{"start":3688.812,"end":3709.011,"text":"不過我這裡也要跟委員報告因為要符合這樣的規定要樓層還有它的面積還有消防安全的一些相關的規定所以現在各個政府機關不管中央地方大家都努力朝這個方向再去增加因為每一年的需求大概30%左右"},{"start":3711.053,"end":3719.88,"text":"另外我要跟委員報告一件事情我們也同樣的透過內政部我打斷你一下你剛才說目前的需求只有30%"},{"start":3722.281,"end":3747.163,"text":"公務同仁他覺得有拖音的需求公家機關有拖音的需求他會被30%左右顯然這個需求都維持在一個固定的數量所以我們上次也有提一個方案內政部也接受就是在未來興建的政府的相關的這些設施裡面都要一流拖音拖曳的這些相關的環境"},{"start":3749.765,"end":3767.782,"text":"目前執行的成效就在全國各個縣市的各個公務部門各個縣市的相關的你們所統計的數據在會後提供一份給我好沒問題我們來瞭解一下到底說我們的效益是如何那"},{"start":3769.003,"end":3795.134,"text":"其實我要講的就是說我們其實我們政府除了要鼓勵對於這個少子化的現狀要去鼓勵生育以外對於我們這些就養生養的環境我們要提供更多的資源所以我們不是說只讓這些這個我們孩子生了之後但是我們整個就養的環境生養的環境造成很多這個父母年輕父母的不便"},{"start":3796.061,"end":3811.157,"text":"所以就會影響他整個他生願意生孩子的一個意願所以這個就養跟生養環境的一個重視相關資源的一個資源我希望這個人事總處也要一併的全盤把它考量進去"},{"start":3812.358,"end":3812.738,"text":"施法人員工作環境問題施法人員工作環境問題"},{"start":3832.225,"end":3852.221,"text":"人壽保險已繳了保險費可作為強制執行的標的這個裁定出爐之後造成我們的民事執行處大塞車案量大爆滿所以造成這些執行處的書記官執行員指達員這些人員完全無法消化這麼大的一個案量"},{"start":3853.782,"end":3873.225,"text":"到目前為止人事總處你有沒有去了解過我們尤其是臺北地檢署或者臺北的民事執行處包含這個士林或者新北的這些民事執行處尤其是六都的對相關的案量他們目前大概消化的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":3874.622,"end":3889.575,"text":"我這裡也跟委員報告一下事實上總處針對法務部這個區塊我們非常的重視所以我們在今年這個月的9月3號我們有到台北地檢署實際去做一些訪視因為有些"},{"start":3893.711,"end":3915.146,"text":"數據資料還有現場的情況我們在總處裡面坦白講沒有辦法感受所以我們今年9月3號就總處有一組人還有外面的專家學者我們一起過去協助他們了解那委員剛才提的就是一個階段性的人力需求這是一種一個是長期性的人力需求這是要從兩個過面來看"},{"start":3917.648,"end":3921.41,"text":"法務部檢察署、司法院都有提出最高原額應該修正的需求以院檢現在的原額數量"},{"start":3935.379,"end":3959.299,"text":"他有辦法消化這些源源不絕案量的需求嗎?有沒有辦法?雖然你書面資料還沒提供給我以你現在來看可以嗎?我在事實上這個議題齁過去這兩年我們一直在跟法務部對話那我們在這兩年我們給他檢察官助理就是業用的有250位"},{"start":3961.363,"end":3987.408,"text":"本身是在處理最近這幾年暴增的詐騙可是我相信透過打詐傷法之後他這個案件量一定會往下走那你如果禁用太多的約聘的這些正職的檢察官助理未來這些人要扮演的角色我覺得就必須要我們要從能力支援的使用上長期來看反而我個人在觀察"},{"start":3988.588,"end":4006.633,"text":"雖然一個檢察官他會搭配檢視官還有書記官有一定比例那目前我們掌握到的法務部目前還有550個缺額還沒有補進來我覺得在增加總額之前應該是把你既有的額還沒有用完應該先去用"},{"start":4007.173,"end":4022.486,"text":"而且說真的要優先用在檢察官跟檢察事務官因為檢事官他可以協助檢察官去做開庭一些法制方面的這些工作那一般的書記官或檢察官助理沒有這樣的一個授權"},{"start":4024.568,"end":4024.708,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4054.708,"end":4063.859,"text":"就是我們檢察官的緣額或者司法官的緣額是否要考慮他們提出來的需求我們總處這邊能夠滿足他們的需求嗎?"},{"start":4067.056,"end":4091.173,"text":"我覺得我必須要用兩點來跟委員說明第一個假如我們源頭不減量的話檢察官再增加一倍他也會很超然後如果要增加的話坦白講應該去補充最累的檢察官檢視官而不是去增加檢察官助理因為檢察官助理他這一些routine收集尤其以檢察官助理"},{"start":4091.533,"end":4106.524,"text":"案件量剛成立的時候坦白講文件量是很少他不像法官助理一樣他是已經成案的他每一個人在處理雖然都名稱都有助理檢察官助理跟法官助理那是沒工的啦那其實齁"},{"start":4107.865,"end":4136.24,"text":"人力要用在刀口上總長你是用很多的資源去用在我們跟你講說檢察事務官去減輕檢察官辦案的壓力但是我們也了解到因為我現在一直重視的是說就是檢察官本身的問題還有司法官本身的問題我們看到還是有很多的檢察官或者司法官辦案辦到過勞然後很多就不幸墜死這種還是層出不窮"},{"start":4137.501,"end":4145.666,"text":"委員你的想法跟我一樣要補充的是在司法官跟檢察官不是去補充檢察官助理因為到目前為止還沒有看過哪一個檢察官助理過勞"},{"start":4162.057,"end":4184.629,"text":"反而是在檢察官跟司法官應該是要去補充上面的人你這些言語應該就是要補充結果你去補充底下的你就引到風雲去了所以我想我們包含專業選委員我們都是學法律出身的對於說你去約顧這些不管是檢察官處理或者是檢察事務官他的考訓"},{"start":4185.629,"end":4200.978,"text":"其實真的這些人對法律的純熟度或者專精度有達到我們的標準嗎這個是我想我們不管是考試院或者這個人事長這邊你們都要去考量的你補足這麼多的人真的能夠確實的讓辦案品質更好嗎"},{"start":4203.9,"end":4205.821,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 謝謝蘇人長接下來有請莊委員瑞雄質詢謝謝莊委員 有請我們人事長 有請蘇人事長"},{"start":4234.991,"end":4259.107,"text":"委員長 現在我還可以 林市民來開藥方啦那這個藥方到底這個 開下去後有沒有效就不知道啦 但我底下幾個問題要來做一個請教就上個會期裡面 本席也針對體育署的升格 體育部的議題跟你做過請教那今天再來跟你來就教 就是說奧運以後"},{"start":4259.907,"end":4275.138,"text":"我們就看到行政院也多次召開這個整個升格的諮詢的一個會議也請了許多學者專家跟選手來做這樣的一個討論那從目前的進度來看的話可以預期體育署的一個升格應該是一個單獨成立一個新的部會"},{"start":4276.979,"end":4291.91,"text":"那並不是說跟現有的部會去做合併那也可能不會去取代或可能降編的一個部會但是我們就看到說我們中央行政機關的一個組織法裡面第29條說部之總數14個啦14個而已那這邊已經訂定各個部會的一個總數雖然在99年之前有幾次依據行政院的組織法的一個部會數量變動來配合更動的一個數量但是呢"},{"start":4305.679,"end":4309.601,"text":"從上一次主改,行政院決定成立數位部,但同時也將科技部改制為國科會,接下來因應體育署的身格,會有部會因此而受到影響而調整,例如"},{"start":4329.668,"end":4355.174,"text":"改制或者併裁還是直接提案修法提高到第15個部 請教我有委員報告 沒整個會議是要修中央行政機關組織集中法跟行政院組織法然後教育部的組織法還有新成立的一個法人我們總共要修4個法修4個法我們沒有裁掉不過我這裡也要跟委員報告一下"},{"start":4355.914,"end":4357.356,"text":"參照上次組織的改造,農業部升格料約130億"},{"start":4372.475,"end":4374.518,"text":"人事長你對於整個體育部的一個升格、人力的需求這部分你有什麼見解嗎?不是只為升格而升格"},{"start":4391.827,"end":4415.918,"text":"其實那個不能用升格的概念而是他們希望是一個全新的部不是用升格的概念升格就是我們來體育署整個書的名字的組並且是這樣但是他們現在整個的功用目前教育部體育相關單位他們整個的功用是要全新一個部會他有新的生命像他有一些運動產業這些相關的有一個新的那一種"},{"start":4419.6,"end":4421.462,"text":"這件事對台灣未來的發展很重要"},{"start":4451.324,"end":4472.803,"text":"主要的觀念應該是重新設計的概念 而不是一隻肚瀉狠的養大人這樣啦你只要養大人啦 不然你只要改一個名 屬變種部 然後你員額不用去增加嗎 一定要增加的啊員額一定會增加 最重要的他的方式也要增加那當然啦 可是你會碰到一個問題啦"},{"start":4473.624,"end":4473.804,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4494.028,"end":4514.262,"text":"有的地方就會少人那我現在因為我自己現在做職欄的規定我自己很清楚你知道嗎我們大家都樂見看到政府人力投入更多的人力跟資源去幫助這個整個運動產業的一個發展可是我是擔心啊你現在被整個法令給各部會的一個排擠你現在就已經人力在吃緊啊你像這樣你不去再做一個未雨綢繆或你剛才還跟我說那個東西要送給我我要給你怕死"},{"start":4520.746,"end":4521.047,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4538.867,"end":4561.596,"text":"國產署去報案,要農地換約,碰到老百姓他本身的農業保險,或者說他必須有農保的問題,你在台東你占了85%全部都是公有地啊,老百姓要去跟公家來做爹啊,你要做爹,你要換約,說你一定要到現場去看,這個規定是合理啊,可是你卡手就不夠啊,嚴重塞車啊,塞了那麼多年啊,你不去做一個改革啊,"},{"start":4568.916,"end":4573.158,"text":"國戰署他也請考到給你聽啊有啊那個公務人員特考啊甚至高考啊都舉辦啊然後舉辦了以後怎麼樣舉辦了以後要分發啊比如說人事長你分發台東你想想看我就不在建廠了我去台東我去那邊擺三年如果要離開了同一個課室再換一下變成要綁六年他才可以離開台東到其他的地方去有什麼你來想想看不通的年輕人想想看我要娶老婆還是我要嫁老公呢"},{"start":4599.271,"end":4599.432,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4620.782,"end":4630.608,"text":"人事長,你也倒想一個辦法,不是只有發一個文,國產署他當然有負責任,說好,你碰到農業保險的農保的優先優先你也是沒人啊,我們要有補啊,政府就是要去撈背寫改革問題啊,像台東這樣的一個地區,公有地占了將近90%"},{"start":4644.203,"end":4669.216,"text":"這要怎麼辦?以現在一般國有成豬農地來看的話,你像6年左右為主流,農民去租用國有地開始去耕種,這個過程裡面你碰到這些災損,對不對?或是農作物的保險,政府說沒有,你要有成豬的,你要有成豬國有地的事實,跟農作物生產,站在農業部的立場很合理啊,但問題就是說,站在農民的立場咧?"},{"start":4673.433,"end":4689.661,"text":"是你政府沒咳嗽把我弄出來阿所以你們部跟部的政策在打架所以我認為這個沒有趕快去解決不行啦你再看在台東國產署 台東分署那裡那辦署是幾人而已 你知道嗎 查根業務八人審核八人都十六人事長你要想 大巨蛋十公頃啦台東的城主的地的面積差不多一千個大巨蛋這樣啦你把蛋十六個在那裡"},{"start":4704.158,"end":4704.679,"text":"當天往返你看看"},{"start":4724.3,"end":4735.525,"text":"你說從台北去支援的：或者說你從嘉義、台南去支援的：你去借火車、你去省...我們說的4點多是借最頂級的祖宮河、普悠瑪：4點40分鐘勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾勾�"},{"start":4754.09,"end":4754.85,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會議"},{"start":4782.691,"end":4783.171,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4798.878,"end":4818.665,"text":"他有綠豆 藍芋 我有小琉球 他在觀光 我在墾丁國家公園 阿修琉球 大鵬灣 那地方我都有你原住民我七個 所以地理環境差不多 肚子的衝擊差不多 但是我一去看我就覺得你們這個很不合理阿很不合理阿 沒人阿 政府沒人 你政府沒人要叫我去死 這不對"},{"start":4823.613,"end":4830.641,"text":"有補嗎?有沒有方法?有!我委員報告啦!阿你有補?你現在都這樣開始在講?沒有!阿你合調!因為喔!我們的補人就要贏啦!誰不要贏?國產署我們也說說,我們定年11月我們就有去台東去看過,所以我們有"},{"start":4841.853,"end":4845.054,"text":"十分之一問在你會堪出一桌白人而已"},{"start":4870.162,"end":4874.627,"text":"我會請他過來,然後我們會找國產署大家一起坐下來,來討論一個,阿會請立委員你來主持,這樣好快啦"},{"start":4887.842,"end":4896.766,"text":"或許我們的想法不是很完整可是起碼我們會拋一些新的想法比如找那個代書公會做主委來開館嘛因為你人還要經過我不可能經過一個人去提車還要進來差不多要一兩天啦 不會付錢啦這種行政效率喔這個實在是太慢太慢太慢啦怎麼說我簡單說啦就是說你在大特車的時候"},{"start":4917.076,"end":4924.78,"text":"你馬上卡到有沒有租約的問題啊所以這個對民眾來講的話不公平我剛才說的就是借廢車給你比較辛苦的借廢機兩個人去只有機票九千四百三十幾塊"},{"start":4942.543,"end":4942.683,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4964.393,"end":4975.879,"text":"今天改過條啦 這個沒有道理我去台東這樣一看 被賴總統派去台東認兩以後我看到的這些問題喔 不是只有觀光的問題啦還有各部會都存在很多問題那也算農業欸 那也不是只有觀光而已農業也大宗欸 大宗 老百姓都很努力啊人家這樣七早八早去討出來 人家也去靜坐要靜坐之後 欸 剛好這種政府應該改過來 你說你沒卡手"},{"start":4993.188,"end":4996.61,"text":"我認為這個一個禮拜內,人事長你要跟人家討論就好,可以嗎?一個禮拜?一個禮拜我沒辦法沒有沒有,你不可以沒辦法,這個是長期的問題,沒辦法你叫我一個禮拜我就沒辦法嗯,啊當期大家都坐在那裡等死,這樣才對"},{"start":5014.778,"end":5033.188,"text":"我委員報告我非常積極來處理這件事情,這樣可以嗎?你相信啦,總務嘉賓早上現在站起來啦,總務嘉賓你相信我說這樣沒道理你那個問題我們都沒辦法解決耶,地方不是我們執政沒錯啊,但問題是中央,我們欠咳嗽去人家倒咳嗽啊,不會通,一星期,一星期"},{"start":5040.205,"end":5040.485,"text":"我來努力啦"},{"start":5057.585,"end":5061.489,"text":"我來努力 但是齁 我要拚 但是財政沒去拚 要配合嗎這個是機關政府內部整合的問題 不能把這個不利益推給老百姓啊 這樣不通 我們改改過條 好不好"},{"start":5074.043,"end":5074.183,"text":"謝謝專委委員﹚謝謝事務人事長"},{"start":5119.025,"end":5123.506,"text":"接下來我們請下一位質詢委員．鍾嘉斌委員主席．在堂委員．先進．列席的政府局幹事長官員．會長公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生．有請人事總處書人事長請人事長"},{"start":5140.106,"end":5165.241,"text":"莊委長 人事長早我跟莊委我們都很相宜的我們這個雙東雖然不是苦情姐妹但是命運跟社會所以希望我們這些公務人員的人力的充實尤其中央機關的派出人員一定要想辦法解決問題但是解決問題除了增加員額除了找到人之外還有其他的方法我們共同努力好不好你要跟財政部說的話我們都可以做的來參悟做你的課程這樣好不好好 謝謝好 來我們來看一下"},{"start":5168.783,"end":5184.336,"text":"其實不只緣額,緣額要讓馬兒好,就要讓馬兒有草吃啦像我們這個課題黨總預算,那軍公教到底加薪有沒有旺現在我們的總預算被退回啊所以今天你來這邊只有業務報告,連預算報告都沒有,招委排這個也很苦惱來做一個業務報告而已,那你覺得軍公教調薪3%有沒有辦法發"},{"start":5193.319,"end":5196.523,"text":"如果真的都遙遙無期最後發的只能按照"},{"start":5203.641,"end":5215.549,"text":"明年只能按照今年的水平來發嗎?每年沒通過就是每年每年的假期就是這樣所以就是說每年就沒辦法期待這個價錢啊我是安心給我服務者做 你說好喔公務員調薪人就做那條喔 現在他們就玩樂了因為不只只有公務人員啦 因為很多的一些民間的機構"},{"start":5227.776,"end":5233.079,"text":"包括我屏東府的助理,我跟他說軍公教條性我們照例是跟著調的,你看要怎樣?最好的就是以前統計給大家美女可以以前唸的好了,因為就算軍公教沒統計,我美女我給不住,照這三八給我調"},{"start":5246.328,"end":5261.735,"text":"那接下來另外一個小問題就是我們現在勞基法剛三讀通過54條勞僱雙方可以協議延後退休那我們公部門也有使用勞基法的人員那公部門有沒有規劃這些人員也有什麼方式可以各機關去協議嗎 有沒有"},{"start":5264.255,"end":5275.64,"text":"我委員報告這個問題我們前面有討論過但是這裡面也牽涉到政府機關的還有國營事業的那你們開始著手去"},{"start":5276.772,"end":5277.592,"text":"了解了嗎?"},{"start":5277.592,"end":5278.693,"text":"去徵詢了沒有?"},{"start":5278.693,"end":5279.313,"text":"有有有有喔?"},{"start":5279.313,"end":5296.638,"text":"有就好 因為很多公務機關 他們適用立法院的員工 他們很期待的啦是不是您可以承諾一個時間 給我們一個初步的調查的結果我們到各地方機關也去努力一下 有沒有一個方向 要什麼人同意?"},{"start":5296.638,"end":5296.778,"text":"還是要怎麼做?"},{"start":5297.938,"end":5300.699,"text":"有風雄嗎?還是開始在想?我們這個拜市的邀請經濟部、交通部、國營事業...我們處理的一部分是...一部分我們處理啦"},{"start":5313.704,"end":5314.404,"text":"公務人員 職聘顧 國營事業"},{"start":5332.433,"end":5352.41,"text":"我看到今天下午2點你們又請這個卓院長要去主持三期機關的首長的一個AI共識營剛剛有委員關心這個AI啊總統代總統有指示那你們覺得如果總預算目前明年總預算沒有辦法執行對於政府的效能還有你們所謂的輸出AI的用有沒有影響"},{"start":5354.885,"end":5368.577,"text":"這個可能會影響到一些部位是編載新興計劃嗎?這個預算明年的明年的新興計劃這個可能AI輸入是不是編載新興計劃我們會延後來辦理啦因為你有什麼過我們就不可能先所以這就是你現在講的AI很重視的AI是屬於新興計劃我們說每年有什麼通過我們就沒辦法做是這樣嗎?"},{"start":5376.323,"end":5376.683,"text":"主席"},{"start":5406.363,"end":5409.045,"text":"我認為那都有機會嘛 你想說你去現場查看以前我們是用人力嘛 所以一日可以去選一兩隻嘛"},{"start":5427.518,"end":5445.304,"text":"我如果去善用資訊科技因為我農業部有航測手域我會測量圖嘛然後無人機再會去然後產出的圖資做比對嘛所以滿足民眾的需求有很多種方法每種方法都要用力去想好不好對啊那我再看我們政府有一種服務專項叫1999啦現在1999有時候民眾現在都關係比較重"},{"start":5453.007,"end":5477.241,"text":"那都爆滿那現在有的政府打算利用所謂的智能客服就是用AI人工智慧直接讓聊天機器人來面對1999撥打電話的民眾你覺得這可行嗎我覺得可行像美國有些公司他的客服全部都是靠那個智能客服在回應那你剛剛講到的個資外洩剛剛你在提到有委員諮詢說個資外洩那這個過程當中有沒有個資外洩的風險"},{"start":5481.988,"end":5489.16,"text":"台北市有民眾發生有學生用1999檢舉老師結果各自外洩呢?老師到時候哪個學生跟他告狀呢?"},{"start":5490.506,"end":5513.192,"text":"有沒有這個風險要考慮?我覺得這是內部管理的問題而不是整個系統的問題好,但是你們也要預先提防啊什麼人可以去看那些資料應該有一些授權嘛不是大家都可以去看那些資料啊這個其實是流程管理的問題啦我過去常常民眾怒氣沖沖的來找我啦說什麼危險檢舉啦他就問開端的人說要怎麼檢舉"},{"start":5519.874,"end":5541.298,"text":"真的有的承辦人還跟他講捏你就假扮出兵趴好館內﹖沒人就把你騙去民眾彼此之間這種檢舉非常傷感情公務機關秉公執法本來就應該連承辦人員在面對這種陰謀守密的檢舉的案件都有可能會洩密了那未來你們再相關用智能克服的就要非常小心管這個資可以嗎"},{"start":5544.052,"end":5570.817,"text":"現在我還有一個問題,其實我們AI客服1999其實比較等於固定人他能夠運用電話清楚合理的表達自己的需求找到不管是真人來服務還是聊天機器人用AI客服來幫他服務,他們都能適應現在有些人他還是習慣臨櫃辦理,老大人啦叫他等於講一波講不清楚,我們很多看到過去信用卡的call center就是這樣子啊"},{"start":5571.738,"end":5582.054,"text":"辦個信用稿注銷等會公會檢測一定要臨櫃那對於這些沒有辦法適應所謂智能客服的人他臨櫃辦理的時候你們有沒有想過怎麼樣提升他們服務的滿意度我舉例來講好了啦往下看"},{"start":5587.25,"end":5616.131,"text":"其實呢 民眾到聽不到啦 他到公務機關去辦理啦溝通出問題啦 或者說公務人員對法規的了解不完整 什麼意思這個是民眾的問題 公務員沒了解你要說什麼第二個是公務員知道他的問題 但是不同的公務員呢 理解有不同的出路來我們舉看看這個例子 這個民眾A跟民眾B問同樣的問題 但是因為問法不同 可能會給到不同的答案 是不是這樣子"},{"start":5617.558,"end":5633.183,"text":"有可能吧 包括AI人工智慧也是一樣嘛 你的問句不一樣 答案就可能不一樣嘛好 但是如果民眾同樣的問題 問張三跟李氏兩個不同的承辦人員 臨櫃人員 結果給出不同的答案 這可以嗎"},{"start":5640.601,"end":5659.073,"text":"張山公務員跟李氏公務員面對同一個民眾他上週來問遇到張山 張山告訴他怎麼辦下週來問到李氏 李氏說不對要這樣辦當然公務員都用嘴巴講 口頭講啦我常常遇到民眾來陳情 常常跟我說 啊他怎麼說怎麼說我說不會吧 誰跟你說的 他不知道 他這樣說怎麼這樣說 他有笑給你嗎"},{"start":5663.356,"end":5673.323,"text":"有可能民眾理解錯誤有可能答詢的公務員認知法令上有不一樣所以造成民眾很混淆那要怎麼去解決?要怎麼改觀?我認為可以訴求一種方式"},{"start":5677.446,"end":5696.139,"text":"一般的民眾去臨過的時針,他用語音輸入的時候,那個就是公務員的螢幕就跑出來這個文字,然後這個文字再檢視一下,講一下讓他聽,到最後沒問題,引出來,選名一個,簽一個名,他找回去,他找回去讓那些白人再問一次,這樣才有一個依據啦"},{"start":5707.346,"end":5707.466,"text":"主席"},{"start":5728.281,"end":5756.024,"text":"對於同樣的問題的答案應該是同樣的這第一個 第二個同樣的答案確認過之後 輸出給民眾解釋給他聽他聽得懂聽不懂 其次至少他拿著這一張得到的答案他可以再問其他的人好不好 可以這樣做嗎那應該是請事務部來的人事總處你在推動AI導入你們這樣的共識 你要把這個東西講出去啊有時候AI不只是處理民眾的問題"},{"start":5757.125,"end":5760.93,"text":"AI也是要統整我們公務人員對法令理解一致性的問題"},{"start":5775.047,"end":5796.201,"text":"報個案只會拿三年單回來造勢車禍紀錄填寫 起來都生也都沒所以這個部分你要求我們的公務員現場紀錄很辛苦有沒有什麼方式可以減輕這些現場我們這個員警執勤同仁的負擔不要讓他耗費太多時間在這文書作業但是又能讓民眾可以拿到完整的說明 可以嗎"},{"start":5797.366,"end":5824.571,"text":"其實這件事有拜託檢證署張署長現在先22個縣市每一個縣市先找5個點來示範因為就是因為現在已經輸入也是很普遍而且正確率也蠻高的那事實上我們有推估過那個報案時間跟整個報案時間大概由原來的兩個多鐘頭可以收到所以已經在推了已經在示範了我不知道那個進度我們來問一下"},{"start":5827.472,"end":5827.753,"text":"政府的資安專職人員嚴重不足"},{"start":5845.267,"end":5845.747,"text":"我想這個問題都普遍啦"},{"start":5870.879,"end":5898.692,"text":"中央跟地方不只是資安專職人員因為是找不到人怎麼對應這是一種有緣額但找不到人司法官也是一樣有緣額找不到人那解決的方法有緣額不足的我們有提供額外的緣額有辦法整決過勞的問題最後找不到人的單位不管你是給他法官助理檢察官助理檢察事務官檢查這些終究要找到人那人事總處要協助用人機關"},{"start":5900.053,"end":5918.271,"text":"也在辦強迫請他們不只是要原額,給了原額之後要把需要的人找到,可以嗎?想出解決方案。我們一直都跟法務部跟司法院在溝通這個事。好,要不要我們趙偉這邊安排一個大家聯席來研究一個方案。不要說他們都沒人沒人,沒人有兩種,一種是沒原額,一種是有給你原額你找沒人。"},{"start":5923.453,"end":5923.753,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉賓委員接下來請審發會委員質詢"},{"start":5968.129,"end":5978.695,"text":"主席我們請人事長好請蘇人事長委員長人事長早安今天早上很多委員大家大概都針對這個有關"},{"start":5981.516,"end":6008.082,"text":"AI的部分來跟我們這個這個人事總處來做溝通那事實上看起來現在這個因為我們這個賴總統的宣誓還有我們這個行政院組委員長的一些這個上位計畫現在使得我們人事總處變成我們這個政府推動AI智能的這個提升的一個核心的單位對不對"},{"start":6009.66,"end":6027.959,"text":"我跟委員報告那個主要人總在退的時候我們都有請數位發展部一起進來因為因為這樣政府的協同的腳步會一致因為這個有好幾個層次那就政府政府本身尤其是公務人員對這是我們主體我們主責對你們的核心業務這個"},{"start":6034.461,"end":6045.098,"text":"這個賴總統也多次他多次提到說這個現在齁要讓每一位每一位首長每一位公務人員大家都具備人工智慧的知能這是賴總統的目標"},{"start":6046.311,"end":6065.08,"text":"我看這個我們卓院長他在520宣誓就職的時候他就宣誓說自己是行動AI創新內閣具體的在6月6號我們行政院就核定了一個提升行政院公務人員人工智慧資能實施計畫對不對"},{"start":6066.661,"end":6074.084,"text":"提升行政院公務人員人工智慧知能實施計畫整個計畫大概有五大內容包括高階人才的AI共識營包括AI推動食物種子人員的課程"},{"start":6096.198,"end":6118.434,"text":"包括公務人員AI通識課程另外還有公務機關運用AI工作坊以及公務機關AI應用成果競賽我看這整個大概這個人工智慧智能實施計畫大概就這五大工作重點其中有三個重點是我們人種的工作對不對"},{"start":6120.488,"end":6126.45,"text":"有關這個公務機關運用AI工作坊跟這個公務機關AI應用成果計畫這個是競賽這個是屬於抒發部其他三個都是我們人總的業務對不對好所以我就"},{"start":6134.973,"end":6163.502,"text":"因為這樣子所以我就來檢視說我們齁這三個我們人種的重要的工作在這個提升這個人工智慧智能實施計畫裡面我們人種的重要工作應該最重要工作就是這三個目標啦齁就是就是高階人才的AI共事營跟這個AI推動食物種子人員課程跟這個公務人員AI的通識課程對不對這是這三個工作嘛齁那我們來一一檢視啦齁"},{"start":6166.646,"end":6175.272,"text":"有關這個高階人才AI共識營我們現在辦過了首長部會首長的共識營對不對要辦過副首長的共識營那接下來是要辦三級機關"},{"start":6184.011,"end":6197.483,"text":"三期機關首長今天下午要辦今天下午要辦今天下午好那這個辦理的目的那跟AI計劃他本身我這樣看這辦這個共識營很好但是有一個問題就是說這個看起來你們這個辦這個共識營你們沒有KPI你們沒有定說你們這個到底要達成什麼樣的核心目標我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":6212.636,"end":6239.262,"text":"關鍵績效指標沒有共識營的部分我們其實我們進版共識營第一個就是先解決知道知不知道會不會需要三個層次的問題接下來好像你們還要辦科長級以上的總值人才認證班對不對你們大概估計的期程跟人數大概是多少"},{"start":6243.311,"end":6250.54,"text":"我們今年會辦一起先來示範看示範好今年要看因為相關部會36個36個我們部會這麼多科長你們才36個我委員報告"},{"start":6258.47,"end":6273.181,"text":"人事總署辦的是對業務單位找人來,然後數位發展部辦的是找資訊人員來辦,因為我們有分工,我們有分工好,沒關係,你一期讓你示範看看啦,示範看看,但是我是認為課長中央部會這麼多課長,你辦第一期好像36個人,我是覺得太少啦"},{"start":6284.028,"end":6287.97,"text":"有關AI實務總指援員課程的部分在這裡大概要請教就是說你們這些課程我看了你們很多的計畫尤其是應用趨勢幾十座課程的部分"},{"start":6313.493,"end":6327.265,"text":"我看你們這個這個你們這些計畫你們有沒有納入這個機關自己辦的教育訓練這個部分是不是在納入你們計畫的時候各機關自辦的還是你們這個計畫只是你們自己辦的"},{"start":6328.154,"end":6352.321,"text":"我跟委員報告我們有分兩個區塊人事總署辦的是屬於通案型的應用通案型的我賣出的是會議紀錄自動化啦還是相關法規還是大家補費都會用到我們偏向這一種共用型的那各個機關你想環境部也好他們就自己辦他們自己跟業務相關的我先問啦齁您應用趨勢及實作課程你們預計辦理多少場"},{"start":6359.605,"end":6363.41,"text":"總處 運用趨勢及時做課程的部分我們也是六班 辦理六班嗎"},{"start":6377.817,"end":6378.718,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6407.757,"end":6424.18,"text":"有這個行政院所屬機關有推動公務人員終身學習的實施要點也就是說我們公務人員有學習時數的要求對不對20秒鐘我看你們這個辦法裡面你們有一個行政院在112年12月26日有一個函就是說這20個小時裡面學習時數其中10個小時"},{"start":6435.822,"end":6458.051,"text":"就是好像必修的啦齁你都說20但是有10件事你要必修必修包括當前政府重要政策環境教育民主價值課程性別平等連政府的服務倫理人權教育轉型正義行政中立多元族群公民參與我在你們網站上面看到這個也你們列出也全部都列出來了"},{"start":6459.266,"end":6486.749,"text":"那我們AI有沒有可能納入進那幾個月你會把它納進來會把它納進這個10個小時之內變成必修課程我們現在還在檢討是加入這裡盡量就是來調整把AI會加在這10小時裡面加在這10小時裡面它會變成必修課程中的一個選擇一個選項這個部分就是說就是本席這個要特別在這裡"},{"start":6487.97,"end":6488.43,"text":"接下来"},{"start":6517.336,"end":6533.881,"text":"還有一個就是說我們是不是能夠將AI的公務人力納入這個我們的這個元額評鑑的重點我們按照這個從101年開始每辦理每兩年都辦理一次元額評鑑對不對我們現在是113年的元額評鑑所以我們下一次的元額評鑑計畫是115年開始的對不對"},{"start":6540.117,"end":6556.854,"text":"有沒有可能把這個這個納入這個把AI的這個這個運用吼納入我們的這個言語評鑑也一定會因為我們今年113年已經有幾個場次我們就是請AI畫面領域的專家跟我們一起去做言語評鑑"},{"start":6558.455,"end":6561.258,"text":"這個部分因為我們原本的這個有關這個原額評鑑的重點裡面我們評鑑重點裡面原本有一個這個內部一級單位的這個業務盤點本來有提到業務數位資訊化的情形"},{"start":6574.909,"end":6575.609,"text":"這一定要的"},{"start":6592.017,"end":6618.572,"text":"這個我簡單講啦我整理一下我今天整個要求啦我希望人事總署能夠能夠予以回應啦就是說第一個就是我們AI計畫這個整個新的這個AI計畫他的這個成效齁要定期的盤點可以嗎好好定期盤點第二個就是把AI齁列入這個公務公務員的這個學習必修課程這個你剛剛答應了嘛齁四小時以內大概什麼時候會修改這個這個這個"},{"start":6627.775,"end":6648.392,"text":"第三個就是要這個把這個AI納入我剛剛所講的115年度的這個這個元額評鑑的計畫裡面應該要把AI納入好不好可以好謝謝謝謝人事長好謝謝沈委員你的茶杯也謝謝蘇人事長接下來請副總召昆齊委員"},{"start":6655.912,"end":6680.583,"text":"主席請人事長好請人事長那請會長工作人員今天好像大家總召請幫委員水杯注一下這個人事長你了不了解整個國家運作的體制最重要的就是有這麼多廣大的公務人員讓整個機器能夠轉動能夠讓所有"},{"start":6691.839,"end":6706.514,"text":"公務人員是非常非常重要的國家的骨幹本期先請教一下文竿制度的建立非常不容易公務人員是效忠人民效忠國家"},{"start":6708.126,"end":6737.183,"text":"是不是一定是要效忠人民跟國家都要效忠謝謝所以啊這個本期看到這兩天有個新聞蠻熱鬧的就是以後的將領未來啊都要到總統府去啊李政站好跟賴清德總統高呼總統好要宣誓效忠元首這個而且都不能坐著一定要站著"},{"start":6738.924,"end":6765.522,"text":"對這個新聞你有什麼看法我沒有在現場我們都不在現場但我們都有看到這個新聞我不曉得在現場看到新聞那是不一樣的事沒有關係那如果新聞屬實的話是怎麼樣我覺得因為沒有在現場我就不方便做根本所以有的時候本席在這裡特別請教你這個問題也知道你會這樣回答"},{"start":6768.359,"end":6789.112,"text":"保官要命文官體制沒有這麼重要但是保官要命所以人事長我想請教一下我們這麼多的公務員經過國家考試層層的檢核還有年資每一年都要考核是加等還是移等"},{"start":6790.939,"end":6816.595,"text":"一步一腳印慢慢慢慢的才得到晉升的機會但是現在我們感覺這國家整個文官體制的趨勢已經不再正向的發展已經不斷的傾斜可能未來到底是要效忠元首效忠政黨還是效忠國家效忠人民"},{"start":6818.058,"end":6833.13,"text":"請問一下這個109年有推動過一個約聘僱人員聘約人員這個人事條例草案這個當了三年的約聘僱人員幾乎就有相關的這些職稱職務固然109年有推過"},{"start":6838.277,"end":6857.305,"text":"有沒有成功?我報告委員這個是全序部他在草擬的本來有在草擬後來就是大家意見還沒有非常一致所以整個計劃也非常客氣喔意見沒有一致現在人總的立場支持這樣的案子"},{"start":6858.388,"end":6858.649,"text":"那個市長阿"},{"start":6875.166,"end":6901.814,"text":"所以說不需要考試進來的都是在比較高階的部分政務派任的部分那個已經學有專精有專長我們國家目前是有這個制度本來就在推行所以有政務次長的派任甚至政務部長的派任以及行政院長的派任這都是國家的用人權那我們都尊重但是基層的聘約人員吶"},{"start":6903.666,"end":6907.911,"text":"可以任滿3年就有所謂的職稱職務這個人事長如果你覺得這樣也是合理嗎"},{"start":6916.62,"end":6931.917,"text":"業聘雇人員目前的規定是一年一聘那三年以後轉身分我倒是覺得這個大家可能沒有辦法接受啦好 謝謝啊這個人事長終於講一句腰桿比較挺直的話"},{"start":6936.602,"end":6955.809,"text":"本現在這裡希望我們的口譯歌不要再現一天到晚都有口譯歌當時109年在推動這個品月人員人事條例就是要把所有的這些讓我們的國家所有的這些首長變成慣老闆"},{"start":6957.658,"end":6986.901,"text":"我要用誰就用誰連基層的整個骨幹的體制都要來動搖所以以後只要奉承上意就可以不需要經過國家考試這會把我們整個國家的制度會破壞掉所以我想人事長這個部分要請你一定要堅持現在本席要請教一下我們的最低工資審議委員會跟軍公教員工待遇審議委員會基本上有多大的不同"},{"start":6989.994,"end":7011.704,"text":"我們經公教大藝審議委員會基本上我們參議的大概會中央機關還有地方機關還有一些專家寫者進來我們只是提整個條新的一個參考讓行政院因為行政院本身要去考慮到物價指數的問題經濟成長力的問題還有GDP的問題還有民間薪資的range還有"},{"start":7017.227,"end":7017.527,"text":"勞工的這個部分"},{"start":7027.874,"end":7029.535,"text":"我想我們最低工資審議委員會啊都有納入基層的勞工的代表"},{"start":7057.295,"end":7070.006,"text":"對於軍公教員工待遇審議委員會目前一直都沒有基層員工的這些代表是不是我們可以把他納入讓未來的考量能夠更周延更完整可以嗎"},{"start":7070.816,"end":7091.096,"text":"我非常支持總召的想法事實上我們最近就是在研擬條帶的法制化這裏面有納入基層的公跟教法制化是非常的重要為了調新法制化是非常的重要國家的骨幹"},{"start":7096.431,"end":7124.552,"text":"這些軍公教人員撐起整個國家的所有的他的組織他的制度他的施行服務全國的鄉親未來這個整體的薪資調整本席建議以民生物價指數作為最主要的參考指標把它法制化以後我想未來條件就不再是一個恩給"},{"start":7127.731,"end":7151.296,"text":"執政者想要做就做 不想做就不做這樣子既不公平也不公開 也沒有透明 都會黑箱啊 什麼時間到了 什麼進討稿啊 這個四年一任選舉到了 又開始開支票啊 加薪啊等等這個都不是國家之福 不管誰執政都是一樣"},{"start":7152.536,"end":7180.693,"text":"所以本席認為應該要把它法制化以後時候到了就是調該調整就調整不要是變成一個大家可能講這個恩給制度這個皇恩浩蕩現在要調整了這個都是不應該的我想這個部分請這個人事長做一個參考另外當然本席會追蹤接下來就是這個六都跟非六都只等不同的問題"},{"start":7182.39,"end":7209.643,"text":"這一造成所有這些非六都的地方要如何留才如何留住人才啊固然有一個國家考試有一個綁六年啊還有綁三年或是六年但是呢在偏鄉地區啊往往就是啊我們培養了很多的公務員在這裡他學會了也懂了時間到了就走了"},{"start":7210.958,"end":7238.357,"text":"都要往六都走為什麼我們在基層最重要的骨幹就是科長級縣市政府為科長級鄉鎮叫課長這些都是最主要在執行地方自治所有的這些最重要的這些公職人員但是呢現在這個職等不同啊這個人事長"},{"start":7243.307,"end":7249.841,"text":"請問 同職不同等 同工不同從 這樣子可以為偏鄉留住人才嗎 請回答"},{"start":7250.814,"end":7275.235,"text":"我非常認同總召的看法事實上我們過去這幾年也有跟情緒部組成工作圈我們在解決這個問題或許也不如總召想的一次把所有的都改可是我們是採一個區段一個區段像以前的縣政府的科長是八指等後來我們就調為八到九"},{"start":7275.455,"end":7276.015,"text":"建議 盡量讓地方的"},{"start":7305.413,"end":7334.404,"text":"副主觀地方政府一級單位這些副主觀能夠跨觀等提早受訓這樣的話也為地方培育更多儲備的人才但是呢本席知道你從八到九指等但是呢這個還是不夠明確還是要讓地方的這些留在偏鄉的這些人才"},{"start":7335.936,"end":7346.545,"text":"能夠知道他未來還是有發展的潛力願意留在那裡不然的話真正是同工不同酬同職不同等"},{"start":7347.577,"end":7347.837,"text":"謝謝總召 謝謝人事長"},{"start":7376.76,"end":7381.782,"text":"平東 臺東 花蓮 雙東姊妹花接下來請翁委員小林質詢主席好謝謝委員長人事長請人事長"},{"start":7401.363,"end":7426.486,"text":"好 人事長我今天我雖然沒有來現場聆聽您的口頭報告但是我有認真的讀了您所提出來的業務報告那麼在這次的業務報告裡面其實我有關心幾個議題然後正好您在報告裡面有提所以我現在就想要來就教有關於就是您在業務報告裡面提到的涉及到像是組織精簡"},{"start":7428.307,"end":7452.021,"text":"還有公職律師等等的這個問題那麼首先我想來講的就是說在您這個這次業務報告的第一個重點就是提到未來我們的政府機關可能會要再多增加幾個增加幾個部或是專責機關那麼我的PVT麻煩下頁像是這個"},{"start":7453.462,"end":7478.061,"text":"有可能會成立體育部還有各自保護委員會的籌備處其實已經也都在進行那未來可能會成立各自保護委員會還有現在政府也可能會提出要成立新著名的專責機構以及國家語言研究發展中心這個行政法人那我想請問的就是說當"},{"start":7481.773,"end":7501.472,"text":"現在政府或是有其他的這個民間的呼籲說要成立這些新部會在這個新部會成立他勢必會影響到我們政府機關的整個組織架構人員的增加員額增加經費也會增加那請問人事長您對於像"},{"start":7503.308,"end":7526.243,"text":"這幾年我們陸陸續續做機關組織的調整增加這麼多的部會或是改變部會的從部改成會或從會改成提升成為部那這部分您的看法是什麼您認為這個跟我們這個政府接下來的人事的緣額會不會產生重大的影響我們經費的支出就想聽聽看您的意見"},{"start":7530.999,"end":7544.265,"text":"謝謝委員這個議題事實上我們整個組織在調整事實上是因應整個社會還有國際歧視在調整像各自成立委員會就大概七八年前"},{"start":7545.205,"end":7561.522,"text":"歐盟那裡有成立GDPR然後我們為了以他們接軌所以我們也成立了各支籌備委員會現在是成立籌備處的一個階段它本身是一個獨立機關大概介於有一點類似燕能會的這一種組織的結構"},{"start":7563.985,"end":7593.229,"text":"那體育發展部大概這幾年大概也知道臺灣在運動賽事方面對在整個表現都非常好那我們也希望說從另外一個角度如何提供全民更好的一個運動的環境還有健康的體魄從這個角度來會成立一個部那至於新住民的這個部分是大院才是要求要成立一個專者機關的部分"},{"start":7594.729,"end":7619.315,"text":"其實我的問題在於說依照現在行政院的組織法裡面行政院組織法裡面有明定我們就是有14個部應該是14個部8個會是不是14個部9個會那麼未來要怎麼樣去做調整呢是又要再把某個部又拉下來改成會嗎"},{"start":7620.874,"end":7630.917,"text":"如果說按照你們現在講的整個人力的管理是要以當增則增因減則減的原則那麼當你的人力增加之後你哪些要減呢我覺得這個問題非常好現在目前的一個規劃會成立一個"},{"start":7640.657,"end":7640.677,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":7671.117,"end":7692.352,"text":"我們會在這個範圍內去做移動的概念,它不是競爭家,因為這一個新的部位它有競爭家,一樣我們也會定期透過兩年一次的延合評鑑去減少,有些業務一定會有消,有漲嘛。是的,我了解這個情況,但是就是說以我們看到之前速發部的成立,"},{"start":7693.152,"end":7703.404,"text":"其實它基本上已經也佔用了我們目前就是之前的不少的員額那現在要再成立一個體育部當然本人是支持成立體育部但是就說在整個的整體國家的總員額"},{"start":7707.796,"end":7722.505,"text":"調整的部分,它原額數到底要增加還是在維持現狀情況之下,在其他機關的部分做人力的刪減,我覺得這個都是涉及到整個國家的整體的發展。我們知道其實現在這個很多公務員叫苦連連,覺得這個他們的工作負擔都很大了。"},{"start":7726.927,"end":7733.832,"text":"如果說未來因應好幾個部會要新成立然後因此必須要去讓別的機關不能夠再禁用原額這我覺得它會是個大問題所以我希望說人事長這裡可能要提出一個就是整個國家未來的原額的調整"},{"start":7747.615,"end":7747.675,"text":"公職律師"},{"start":7772.929,"end":7779.232,"text":"本席在上禮拜五的總諮詢裡面其實我有特別提到有關於NCC編列的訴訟費用過高因為業者不滿NCC所做的處分所以紛紛提起行政訴訟那它的訴訟費用夏年度還編了800多萬前兩年還有超過上千萬的訴訟費用"},{"start":7797.04,"end":7822.61,"text":"所以由這個角度來看,似乎NCC,譬如說它內部就真的要去聘請個公職律師可能會比編列預算去付這麼高的訴訟費用都要來的經濟那我想請教就是,我們律師法修正通過增加公職律師,那麼人事總處這邊有去了解目前到底有哪些機關有設置公職律師嗎?"},{"start":7825.172,"end":7830.639,"text":"目前健保署有提出來偵測兩名公職律師其他都沒有目前還沒有提出來因為他們可能要評估然後要修編制表"},{"start":7841.075,"end":7846.257,"text":"所以我認為說這個部分的話其實人事總處這裡其實也可以去了解一下各機關的需求然後而且要特別將這個一些機關他們浪費人民的納稅錢編了很多的公帑去支應訴訟費用的這件事情這些機關都要去考慮他們未來是不是要增設公職律師那這部分的話可能希望人事長這邊也要去了解目前公職律師的經用狀況還有為什麼"},{"start":7870.709,"end":7887.097,"text":"沒有人願意要來當公職律師另外一個有在評估政策公職律師就是國防部因為他有很多的那個法務部他自己本身的法律專業的人才就很多了這個我倒是不需要"},{"start":7887.537,"end":7899.145,"text":"好沒關係那接下來我還有另外一個問題這也是跟公務人員的福利有關的我們知道其實現在台灣已經進入到高齡化的時代根據最新的統計就是2025年之後台灣每5個人就有一個人是65歲的老年人口"},{"start":7905.329,"end":7929.526,"text":"已經進入到超高齡社會那進入到這樣超高齡社會的時代裡面我們就必須考慮到就是公務人員他可能這個也必須要奉養父母親那我知道現在我們有世親假但是呢我們世親假是留職停薪就不像是育嬰假育嬰假的話還可以照顧小孩請申請育嬰假有留職給薪這個還可以有八成薪"},{"start":7934.87,"end":7953.747,"text":"那麼所以在這樣的一個情況之下我本席是認為說也要考慮到我們時代在改變我們整個的社會的狀況然後照顧年老的父母親其實也是公務員的作為子女的一個很重要的責任所以是不是有可能可以要修法將這個釋清價"},{"start":7957.21,"end":7958.993,"text":"沒有留職停薪的補助"},{"start":7972.568,"end":7992.027,"text":"我想委員的建議會長因為這一個適性假如果是要留職給薪的話必須要考慮到我們跟勞工的很平性的問題那我們現在有做一個大概有不少機關的同仁都有去使用就是說我們上下班有彈性上班"},{"start":7992.788,"end":8016.865,"text":"那個是不一樣的概念啦我知道當然是不一樣的概念可是當這個制度要做比較大的變革的時候我們要考量的因素就比較多可是我這裡答應委員我們會跟程序部在協調的所以希望人事長是不是可以也是大概一個月可以給我提一個報告出來就是針對就是市清價如何改善然後要比照育嬰價"},{"start":8019.284,"end":8019.964,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8048.442,"end":8060.087,"text":"好 謝謝翁委員 謝謝蘇人士長兩個月提一個書面報告給我們翁委員接下來有請吳思瑤委員質詢那麼並在陳俊宇委員質詢後我們休息好 謝謝主席 有請人事長有請蘇人士長"},{"start":8073.37,"end":8099.346,"text":"請主席早日康復早日康復謝謝人事長今天兩個主題就教於您好下一頁您服務公職非常久的時間我特別知道您好像一路從財政部從考試院從研考會然後一路到人事總處來服務嗎大概也幾十年的時間對不對"},{"start":8100.632,"end":8103.455,"text":"在您擔任公務體系的不論是在哪一個部會單位有曾經發生過總預算案被擋下來的經驗嗎?"},{"start":8121.61,"end":8137.388,"text":"印象中好像是沒有印象中沒有甚至有人說2008年民進黨有擋下這事實上就沒有嘛2008年的時候民進黨只有27席不會也不可能擋下中央政府總預算案"},{"start":8138.129,"end":8161.674,"text":"而今年我們碰到的挑戰是不只是院會被擋下退回成委會現在是連程序委員會是史上第一次破天荒國家政府總預算案關乎人民的福祉關乎國家的建設連程序委員會第一關排案掛號的權利都被剝奪了"},{"start":8163.334,"end":8177.26,"text":"而當中的新興計劃就高達2050兩千餘億不能辦理新興計劃跟這個新增預算那跟您主管的部會裡頭影響最大的是哪一條"},{"start":8178.729,"end":8181.673,"text":"所以您公務同仁您公務體系30多年的經驗第一次發生這樣的狀況下業"},{"start":8195.63,"end":8197.473,"text":"其實中央編列的是222億包括122是中央支付90億是補助地方縣市政府10億是補助鄉鎮市政府所以加起來是222億"},{"start":8212.009,"end":8227.018,"text":"如果說聯同這個條新能夠發放各縣制政府另外有一個50億的配合的補助換言之是如您剛講的272億但是跟中央政府總預算案相關的是222億我也覺得非常遺憾"},{"start":8231.92,"end":8255.567,"text":"這個週末教師節剛過我看到不分黨派的立委尤其在野黨的委員大家也都在臉書社群上PO出祝福老師教師節快樂我們爭取老師的福祉會越做越多結果擋下了軍公教包括老師3%調薪的方案那您現在做什麼努力呢?這麼大條?"},{"start":8260.424,"end":8280.832,"text":"我就是心裡默默期待可以進入到那個實質的預算審查其實人事長您是非常有經驗我知道你這段時間也不斷的去穿梭各黨的委員的辦公室就是要讓各黨的委員都知道不要為了"},{"start":8282.092,"end":8301.491,"text":"對抗不同政黨之間的不同意見而造成服務國家的軍公教人員的權益受到傷害我剛剛看到好多委員都要求你們趕快把軍公教條新的法制化提出來"},{"start":8303.012,"end":8330.761,"text":"那很多委員還說因為要法制化才可以確保擴大照顧公務體系因為要法制化才可以避免公務人員調薪成為這個長官看長官臉色或者是一種恩己的制度其實我要挑戰這種說法一個國家要照顧我們的公務體系的同仁們有很多要審酌的"},{"start":8332.968,"end":8350.76,"text":"條件狀況他不會是看誰的臉色也不會是恩己事我相信蔡英文總統賴清德總統連4條而且今年是首度也是史上第一次吧連續兩年都調應當是史上第一次吧"},{"start":8351.98,"end":8355.762,"text":"所以回到制度 現在已經有一個設置要點 也就是我們組成的審議委員會有一個設置要點已經有可以參裁 已經相對有一套制度了"},{"start":8379.795,"end":8395.068,"text":"那未來是不是要法制化我尊重你們的言議因為它的面向非常的廣要參酌的指標指數非常的多我個人也認為不需要為快而快現在沒有所謂的"},{"start":8396.485,"end":8410.019,"text":"委員所說的要法制化才能調心並沒有嗎目前沒有法制化可是經濟發展有成果稅客收入有成長我們就想方設法來照顧公務同仁不是嗎不需要為快而快來周詳的來研議這是我的立場好下一頁"},{"start":8417.031,"end":8439.268,"text":"那這幾年來我說的軍公教員工有待遇審議委員會有你們的要點可以參採以今年調薪當然就看到你們7月18的審議結果很具體的就是如同我說的他必須符合各項財經的指標是正向的發展因為政府拼經濟有成今年呢113年經濟成長率達到3.94較去年增加2.66個百分點"},{"start":8445.473,"end":8467.804,"text":"然後預估消費者物價指數的年增率也因為拼經濟有成增加了2.07所以民間的薪資跟基本的工資也正向的成長所以在這些條件之下我們願意用國家的預算讓軍公教的待遇來調整全民共享經濟發展的紅利"},{"start":8470.945,"end":8493.028,"text":"我以這一頁我要說的就是現行的機制是一個員工待遇的審議委員會未來要改良要擴編我也樂觀其成但是所有的指標都應當回到一個理性可行的方案我希望未來納入你們法制化的研議真的不需要因為"},{"start":8494.329,"end":8515.596,"text":"政治的壓力為快而快我很擔心制度要讓他非常的嚴謹跟完整這是我的提醒當然我也要呼籲當我們在野黨的委員這麼大聲疾呼的要照顧軍公教的待遇要求將條新法制化的同時就應當想想現在222億還被擋住"},{"start":8520.558,"end":8535.224,"text":"照顧軍公教不需要捨盡求遠趕快讓預算能夠進入審查這才是照顧軍公教待遇的具體行動您同意我的觀點吧我們繼續強化遊說好嗎"},{"start":8537.88,"end":8540.482,"text":"所以您當時百味雜陳我們繼續加油好嗎來下一頁"},{"start":8564.761,"end":8593.398,"text":"我長期在倡議的公務體系的心理價我們希望在現有的10種價別之外來增加一個心理價而我也多次論述心理價不是只有放假本身他是一個在EAP的方案之外能夠讓我們接住心靈健康需要我們關懷的公務同仁下一頁"},{"start":8594.478,"end":8611.064,"text":"那也謝謝您您正面的回應我您個人支持人事總處會努力來推進但是在你們4月跟全序部合開的研商公務人員請假規則的這個會議上是不是全序部有不同的意見對不對"},{"start":8612.298,"end":8636.434,"text":"我這裡要說明一下我在3月6號事實上我是完全支持委員的想法因為目前很多公務同仁都會有心理上的障礙有時候是顯性有時候是隱性的那這些人事實上也是被需要照顧的疫情而且是在我們所謂的EAP的範疇裡面那"},{"start":8637.435,"end":8638.576,"text":"這就是我下面要來說的下一頁"},{"start":8662.908,"end":8666.793,"text":"在這場會議上全序部的意見說公務員請假會影響服務民眾的品質我想這個理由"},{"start":8673.581,"end":8676.862,"text":"請假是公務同仁的權利一個運作良好的政府也不應當因為公務員某人請假而影響服務民眾的品質所以他並不成立"},{"start":8694.571,"end":8721.033,"text":"循序部的意見就您剛講也是我最在意的循序部的同仁居然還認為心理架式有標籤化的疑慮怕被濫請或者是該請的人不敢請這就是我們要推動我們要突破的困境不要讓心理健康調適架成為一個被汙名化被妖魔化被不健康的認知這就是我要挑戰的"},{"start":8722.673,"end":8741.028,"text":"來下一頁下一頁下一頁我很快的再給您信心我去年質詢您的時候那個時候有43所46所大學已經有心理假其實早在吳思瑤開始默默的很寂寞的在立法院優先倡議一開始只有2022年兩校2023年15校到今年已經成長到126校下一頁"},{"start":8751.775,"end":8765.402,"text":"教育部也跟上來向下延伸至高中值就是今年8月已經全面教育部大突破也都有全方位的學生身心調適假下一頁"},{"start":8767.25,"end":8795.536,"text":"蔡總統推動的五大健康行動方案年輕族群的心理健康支持方案也擴大到下一頁賴清德總統在健康台灣裡頭從原本15到30歲的心理諮商再擴大到15到45歲每年三次我們預算變更多就是我們面對在現在高壓的生活社會樣態之下心理健康需要國家的支持下一頁"},{"start":8796.696,"end":8820.149,"text":"所以我希望我們不要放棄不要放棄心理架不是只有放不放架本身它對於我們我下一次會跟您探討EAP我們台灣公務體系的EAP做得夠不夠到位如果都到位如果也許心理架可以放到後面但如果EAP不夠到位"},{"start":8821.741,"end":8843.42,"text":"那我認為心理家就不應當因為一次的會議被打回票之後我們就放棄努力就像我們的國家政府總預算案一次被退我們不會放棄繼續遊說是一樣的我們要擴大照顧公務同仁的心理健康我們持續來努力好嗎好辛苦了謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":8845.939,"end":8850.261,"text":"謝謝施堯幹事長 謝謝蘇委員接下來請陳委員均與質詢 質詢完畢後我們休息5分鐘 也跟吳釗緯報告一下"},{"start":8869.448,"end":8877.987,"text":"好 首先先敬祝我們主席健康平安 早日康復好 謝謝陳委員那我們有請我們人事長好 請人事長"},{"start":8879.538,"end":8901.764,"text":"委員早 人事長早 人事長我想我們人事總處所掌管的這個政府的相關業務包括這個公部門的人力規劃培訓福利等等那對於我們政府整體的這個施政效能以及公務員的工作條件密切相關尤其我們看到這個軍公教的待遇連續"},{"start":8903.224,"end":8930.954,"text":"兩年調整這也是我們人總來主導審議的這剛剛也聽我們人事長已經報告了那我們也期待明年度的這個總預算能夠盡早實質的來審查不要影響到公務員的權益當然我們人總要照顧的不只是軍公教還有整個公務體系的工作夥伴因此想針對這個測量助理待遇的調整問題來和我們人事長做一個探討"},{"start":8932.628,"end":8953.423,"text":"之前在本席的選區宜蘭縣有接獲到在地的這個測量助理團體來向我陳情那全國有2000多位的我們這個測量助理員他們的年功享多年來都沒有被調整過而且這個已經反映多年了那平常在進行外請的工作的時候"},{"start":8954.083,"end":8971.491,"text":"還得負重上山下海其實相當的辛苦我相信我們人事長您也應該可以認同但是長期在薪資難以發展的環境已經嚴重打擊到測量助理員的工作士氣而我想這個案子"},{"start":8973.393,"end":8985.918,"text":"我們人總這邊應該也研議了一段時間也經過相當多的這個單位諸多的討論我想請教人事長就是對於測量助理員的這個待遇調整目前推動的進度為何"},{"start":8987.618,"end":9005.891,"text":"我這裡跟委員報告一下那個內政部在今年的7月9號有函報行政院那按照我們的標準週月程序我們會會相關的機關不過這個案子我跟委員報告大概我們目標大概11月15號以前會把他簽出來那"},{"start":9007.112,"end":9029.553,"text":"當然目前的訴求是調2000到5000之間那至於調額多少我想我們會尊重相關機關大概我們也支持往上調至於調補多少我們要尊重相關機關的意見那整個時程我們希望10月15號今天9月30我們希望大概兩個禮拜左右要把這個案子給"},{"start":9032.902,"end":9044.555,"text":"那我們大概10月15號把這個案子把他final然後生肖日期一樣也會在明年的1月1號明年1號就是確定可以核定"},{"start":9045.591,"end":9073.44,"text":"這個整個結果就對了對這兩的工作會的部分這兩工作會就是我們現在訴求是2000往上調嘛那調補多少我坦白講我我們現在還在收斂的階段那是不是我們說真的這個人總沒有辦法來決定他final的調補那人事長我想請教為什麼不針對這個年功享的部分來做調整"},{"start":9074.741,"end":9097.166,"text":"年功享的部分我們有算過有一些年資比要漲的你年功享去變動的話反而他那幾年就沒有辦法領到年功厚反而會造成他的實質收益實質守得會降低有跟他們溝通過因為你年紀大一點說這個你到年功厚的話你可以獎金有兩個月"},{"start":9098.226,"end":9100.106,"text":"目前我們就是針對工作"},{"start":9128.015,"end":9145.868,"text":"工作會的部分10月15號2000到5000還不確定那10月15號可以有一個的金額是多少然後生效日明年1月1號好那這個就請我們人事總書這邊能夠積極加速來辦理那我們也會持續來追蹤我希望透過"},{"start":9147.409,"end":9172.307,"text":"這個比較合理的待遇的調整能夠讓我們公部門留住人才也可以激勵我們相關這些測量助理員的一個工作士氣這個部分再拜託謝謝委員一直持續在關注這個議題我們會在下個月15號以前會把它簽出來我們就靜待好消息謝謝謝謝委員那另外就提到這個待遇提升的合理化"},{"start":9173.388,"end":9188.542,"text":"也是這個人種設定的重點施政策略之一那這邊我想就這個公務公教員工的這個地域家籍之籍的這個制度來救教我們人事長那對於公教人員"},{"start":9189.222,"end":9206.58,"text":"到這個較為偏遠地區的服務還有地理環境和交通狀況比較艱困那政府應該考慮這個各服務地點的差異來給予相應而且合理的加級而我們行政院對各機關學校這個公教員工"},{"start":9207.256,"end":9227.197,"text":"地域加級合理化調整的方案至109年實施到今年也即將滿5年的實施期程我想請教人事長合理化的方案執行情形是否有符合預期的效益為何只有部分的地方政府願意採用合理化的方案"},{"start":9228.516,"end":9241.948,"text":"我想會議使用這個合理化方案基本上就是有些有城鄉落差,就是像你像屏東,然後恆春,事實上我們從屏南到屏北要兩點往前嘛"},{"start":9243.589,"end":9259.754,"text":"有些像滿洲鄉有些比較偏僻的地方他們覺得用合理化方案會比較有幫助連澎湖澎湖他也是最近才加入合理化方案目前總共有8個縣市加入合理化方案事實上"},{"start":9260.414,"end":9279.088,"text":"這個也就是說在原有的第一佳級裡面我們給地方政府多一個選項就是傳統我們在定義的就是離車站或者公車站牌多遠還有那個海拔的高度還有離島我們會設定這一些然後給予不同的一個佳級"},{"start":9280.689,"end":9297.617,"text":"除了這個以外我們在意新興因為總是還要考慮到他整個財政規劃的問題因為除了中央補助以外當合理化方案施行到一個階段他本身地方政府的財政也要能夠來做cover"},{"start":9300.158,"end":9317.123,"text":"合理化方案實施已經5年的時間,我們是不是應該也要啟動檢討評估的機制,包括是否有降低流動率,成功留住人才,讓人才持續在地服務,也考慮到各縣市政府的財政狀況的不一樣。"},{"start":9319.804,"end":9339.226,"text":"我們也要有多面向的這個評估並且因為這個時空環境的因素合理化方案的內容也必須與時俱進的來做檢討那我想請教我們人事總處預計何時能夠邀集中央跟地方政府來"},{"start":9340.308,"end":9355.887,"text":"會商檢討以及我們接下來對於在地加級的合理化應該如何來精進這個人事長您可不可以大概說明一下謝謝委員 事實上我們在這個月的9月13號就已經召集相關"},{"start":9356.768,"end":9358.47,"text":"委員提的也非常"},{"start":9380.229,"end":9381.23,"text":"我還是希望我們人總能夠持續積極來辦理"},{"start":9398.205,"end":9419.631,"text":"讓這個加擠相關制度能夠更貼近真實的情況也讓我們到偏遠地區服務的這些公務人員都能夠獲得合理的待遇我相信這是大家所期待的那另外我想再請教我們人事長就是在上個會期上個會期在第一週的時候我有針對這個五一"},{"start":9422.493,"end":9433.181,"text":"勞動節的部分是否可以來全國一致性的休假當時這個人事長您也非常這個樂意的來回應針對這個部分我們會進行相關的檢討那當時因為"},{"start":9438.706,"end":9462.76,"text":"這個時間非常緊迫我們期待在今年五一可以實施後來也這個落空沒有辦法這個如期來執行當然我們在期待是明年的五一是不是可以這個確定全國一致性的來放假那在我們人總所發送的這個行事曆的裡面看到五一還是黑字的"},{"start":9463.32,"end":9471.373,"text":"所以我想請教就這個人事長對於明年五一勞動節我們目前規劃是不是可以全國一致性的放假"},{"start":9473.37,"end":9496.141,"text":"謝謝委員這個問題我想明年五一的這個放假的基本上他的前提應該在內政部他有一個假日及忌廉日實施辦法他要去修改那修改完以後再送過來我們再去更新他的前期是這樣那我想我們也一樣在等內政部的他們整體的一個評估考量"},{"start":9496.681,"end":9502.165,"text":"好那這個部分我們人事長您這邊我們人總沒辦法跟他有一個內部的溝通嗎?"},{"start":9503.564,"end":9509.226,"text":"聽起來普遍應該全國我們所有的這些勞工階級的這些民眾都是期待能夠統一無一就是放假所以我還是期待我們人事長可以跟內政部這邊表達我們這個意思"},{"start":9529.195,"end":9538.303,"text":"那當然我們也透過內政部的相關質詢來質詢內政部我希望說大家有一個共識共同來朝這個目標來前進可不可以"},{"start":9539.764,"end":9564.913,"text":"我事實上是完全因為這裡面會有兩個議題一個內政部的節日及節日實施辦法另外一個是在89年6月30號大宴做一個才是公務人員的一個請假的我們一年的假大概是115到116有一個附帶結議基本上我們現在就是一個是尊重大宴在89年6月30號的這個結議第二個就是內政部"},{"start":9569.555,"end":9581.644,"text":"當這兩個都已經解開了以後我覺得會有各種可以討論的空間好那這部分還是請我們人總這邊積極來溝通因為五一勞動節我還是強調五一勞動節當天沒有全國一致性放假會造成許多這個階層的這個混亂的情況你現在像孩子"},{"start":9592.113,"end":9593.554,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝蘇人事長 現在我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":10446.854,"end":10451.178,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 那麼現在有請吳昭偉中線委員質詢好 謝謝主席那我們麻煩人事長有請人事長昭偉早"},{"start":10469.093,"end":10481.013,"text":"人事長早 人事長首先先請教老問題就是假官助理法制化之後那你在這邊可不可以簡單說明一下到底會不會排擠到總額"},{"start":10483.52,"end":10502.254,"text":"我跟委員報告一下 檢察官助理這次的修法裡面他有特別提到聘用跟業用檢察官如果是業用檢察官就不會排擠到延額 如果是聘用的檢察官就會排擠到延額主要差別在這裡 讓他在使用上有彈性"},{"start":10504.104,"end":10531.633,"text":"法務部長前一天我有跟他談到這個部分那這可能就再麻煩你們多幫忙看能夠讓法務部怎麼樣運作上面能夠更順利一點好不好因為這個問題上個會期已經問過好幾次我跟詹委員報告大概目前大概他們已經有已經用了250位的業用的檢察官助理了"},{"start":10532.173,"end":10549.406,"text":"那未來到底要用多少是要用業用的還是聘用的我想我們也尊重法務部那因為他跟打詐有關所以這個部分可能就要麻煩你否則這個6900的上限這其實很快就會用完了"},{"start":10552.089,"end":10573.875,"text":"我現在請教下一個問題其實這也都是一個長期的問題那其他的委員也都有問過我想請教一下就是說人事長目前我們國家到底是依據什麼法令來讓公私立學校還有公家機關放颱風架事實上我跟張委員報告根本我們沒有所謂的颱風架"},{"start":10575.728,"end":10594.502,"text":"根本目前的所有的價別沒有一個叫台風價只是說交通不便由各個地方政府或者學校基於他的首屬的同仁或學生的安全他們實施就是不用來上班上課的"},{"start":10597.883,"end":10605.547,"text":"我幫您補充各縣市政府是依據天然災害停止上班上課作業辦法是用這個辦法但是裡面還有一個規定說放假這個是人事總處"},{"start":10613.87,"end":10614.11,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10634.243,"end":10657.338,"text":"我跟召委報告一下,事實上從民國83年我們就授權地方政府,因為地方政府的那種差異性,你像管政府會對鄉鎮公售,你像今天蘭嶼就放假,那我人總我怎麼有辦法去直接去幫蘭嶼在即時去用那個放假的這樣的一個措施,事實上"},{"start":10658.098,"end":10684.876,"text":"我們定這個辦法是授權給地方政府當然剛才召委提的就是像今天今天大家就有些人就會有一些期待嘛反正每一次的可能有颱風進來大家就有一些期待那個期望值高還是低的問題不過這個到最後為了讓他有效力還是要授權地方政府第一線的人他比較清楚"},{"start":10687.82,"end":10715.175,"text":"但是這個有時候我覺得齁未來這個天然災害的價如果說是由中央來統一做一個全國性的盤點這個會不會比較好因為地方縣市首長的決策那他們背負了很大的壓力啊我早晚報告啦其實7月30號我們就有找所有地方政委來開過會啦阿他們結論還是要自己決定啦"},{"start":10716.704,"end":10743.438,"text":"因為他覺得中央訂全國的遊戲規則那個有些地方因為有時風頭但是路好好但是有風風風沒大但是那個路回去嘛回去稍微已經地方政府比我們還清楚嘛他地方就可以自己去做這個決定鄉鎮工作也好好好也好他就可以去停了嘛這樣好彈性啊7月30號開會的結論是他們還是要自己決定"},{"start":10746.4,"end":10772.643,"text":"還是中央的意思還是地方政府自己要求?對,我們要求阿,不然他們會去罵阿這部分跟我在市府待過的經驗值不一樣其實常常他們市長在決策要不要放假他們是想破腦袋到底要還是不要因為有時候他放了然後隔天又出大太陽這個都很常發生嘛"},{"start":10773.701,"end":10784.511,"text":"所以你說這個責任他們會這麼喜歡去擔我覺得奇怪那還是這樣好不好就是說那不然我們再找機會我再跟你研究一下看看這個東西我們可以做怎麼樣的精進"},{"start":10785.99,"end":10802.322,"text":"我跟張偉報告一下可能就是他那個風力的等級啦大概會有列幾個條件然後這個條件他可能不是單一認定而是複合式決定的啦我覺得可能可以從這裡來做一些建議"},{"start":10803.783,"end":10825.438,"text":"我們下一個問題我想跟你討教一下就是說我收集了一些資料從107年到113年這段時間我們發現112年公務人員離職跟自殺都創新高而且比111年高非常的多那一樣國軍的部分"},{"start":10826.599,"end":10841.709,"text":"在113年的時候到6月底為止也有12個人自殺那我是想要請教一下人事長有關這個部分當然國軍以外公務員的部分你們有沒有什麼想法有沒有什麼可以做的"},{"start":10842.629,"end":10862.776,"text":"其實我委員報告就是公務人員的自殺我們有統計大概每10萬人大概3點多到6點多這個range每一年的情況不太一樣那全國民眾的話大概每10萬人大概有13到16反而公務機關相對於一般"},{"start":10864.337,"end":10877.992,"text":"總人民總國民的比例還是相對比較低啦這個是實際的數據呈現是這樣第二個就是說我們政府機關事實上也是一直在挖起一個點就是說"},{"start":10878.613,"end":10901.147,"text":"最近這幾年大家那種心理的壓力會造成一些遺憾的事情發生所以我們也在強化整個政府機關EAP員工協助方案能夠更落實更擴大地去協助那一些需要幫助的人因為有些人是隱性的他們說出來你不知道嘛所以我們也希望說當委"},{"start":10903.728,"end":10921.095,"text":"當他的主管或周圍的同仁隨時去觀察你周圍的同仁有沒有有異常的主動去協助因為我覺得這件事應該是要幾個顧面一起來努力這樣才有辦法大幅降低但是這個也是老問題啦,人事長這也是老問題"},{"start":10922.035,"end":10936.306,"text":"你現在是那個最高職位的嘛那你還是得幫忙想一下辦法看怎麼解決你不能拿說跟人口比例去人口一般民眾比去看嘛你要去看他是今年比去年高很多那這才是問題嘛"},{"start":10937.347,"end":10963.926,"text":"那去年又比前年又高很多這個才是問題嘛你不能說因為公務員自殺的比例比一般人民低所以就怎麼怎麼這不是理由啦好不好這部分你這樣講我們就不能接受啦我們會針對過去幾年來作為我們再延續剛剛前面委員所提的問題就有關這個這個勞動節全民放假的這個問題啦那其實你剛剛一直有在提到說是"},{"start":10964.807,"end":10992.695,"text":"是從那個紀念日及節日實施辦法這個部分來的嘛但是這個是規範勞工啊不是我意思是說他所提到的勞動節他並沒有說公務員不能放勞動節嘛因為我跟你講齁我看了一下齁沒關係我們先看下一張那個powerpoint"},{"start":10997.978,"end":11004.104,"text":"今天是跟節日實施辦法第5條第2項所提到的勞動節的勞工放假那我看這個應該是從勞基法的第2條跟第37條所提到的勞動節而來的"},{"start":11021.963,"end":11047.095,"text":"但是這個紀念日跟節日實施辦法第5條他並沒有說勞動節這個東西只有這個公務員不能夠一起放啊那你為什麼當作說因為這個所以公務員不行然後另外就是說因為我去看了其他的國家比如說以美國為例好了他的勞動節是9月的第一個星期一那他這個也是全國一起放"},{"start":11048.868,"end":11065.816,"text":"阿所以我不知道說為什麼這個東西在我們台灣好像變成是一個一個你是卡住自己所以這公務員不能夠一起放然後導致現在很多家庭你也知道嘛很多家庭現在都雙薪家庭阿然後變成說小孩放假父母沒有放的問題發生阿"},{"start":11067.847,"end":11090.189,"text":"就是昭緯你那個投影片這裡寫的齁在紀念日及節日實施辦法的第5條第2項勞動節他就寫勞工放假嘛你覺得勞工可以放假其他沒有嘛所以要剛才改嘛你如果改掉我們的形式律就會跟著這個來改了吧因為他只有identify很明確的寫勞工放假"},{"start":11092.038,"end":11097.466,"text":"法律並沒有禁止你們去做你們立法的動作"},{"start":11100.936,"end":11117.54,"text":"因為他對他確實有講這個勞工放假那我翻了所有的法條大概從勞基法這邊能夠比較找到他的依據但是沒有說你們不能夠提出對於行政院這邊去做出其他的修法的建議阿我懂得找的意思啦還是你們認為說是上限的問題假日上限的問題"},{"start":11122.935,"end":11142.925,"text":"上線的問題就是那個19年6月30號阿大院的附帶決議有寫阿我們一年大概115到116人長這更不對你看一下齁89年這個附帶決議阿他是在陳述一件事實阿所以內政部內政部他他有他的那個"},{"start":11145.366,"end":11166.452,"text":"放假一日可行性報告他自己去解釋立法院的附帶決議叫做上限其實我對內政部的這個報告我是覺得不以為然所以你不能就直接引用他們這個邏輯我跟你講你自己看我們現在包括你上面的字"},{"start":11167.472,"end":11194.763,"text":"我們談到的115至116日這個東西是在陳述放假總日數的一個事實狀況並不是說去加一個限制欸你們不能這樣亂解釋這將來我也會跟內政部討論這個問題啊那如果你說你說這個這個叫做限制那為什麼會有115或116兩種不同的規格那如果你是說這跟論年或平年有關的話那我跟你講"},{"start":11195.743,"end":11213.118,"text":"今年是115天但今年是論年那為什麼是115那明年明年是平年但是有116天所以這115跟116這不是上限嘛如果是上限一定是一個標準數字"},{"start":11214.963,"end":11230.137,"text":"那如果你說唯一有可能是平年論年的差別但是我剛剛跟你講了今年跟去年也是平年跟論年但是也跟115、126無關嘛所以你們不能動不動就拿這個當作是放假的上限"},{"start":11231.826,"end":11258.608,"text":"你剛講的我就謝謝趙薇啦其實齁這件事我覺得我也是尊重內政部的認知啦因為罵帳頭也是他要套嘛今天節日時事辦法他如果把五一他不要寫勞工那很多東西就清楚了嘛那問題他就還要寫他啊啊這幾天他在頂的啊又不是我們頂的啊我又不能用立法把它塗掉啊"},{"start":11259.969,"end":11265.091,"text":"他確實是有勞工但是他是為了保障勞工而來對不對但是他並沒有立法做其他的限制所以你們也應該做你們該做的事你也要保障公務員阿"},{"start":11282.136,"end":11309.728,"text":"內政部他都知道要保障勞工然後另外保障公務員這一點我是不太能接受好不好這部分也要麻煩你們研議一下那我只是要剛剛要跟你們提醒一下不要拿116或115這個是立法院的限制我跟你講你從那個附帶決議的文字根本不是限制這內政部也在騙人啊你們不要跟著這樣走啦好不好我們不是被騙我們是尊重尊重內政部他弄錯你也尊重啦"},{"start":11313.229,"end":11333.495,"text":"主管機關最後我跟你們講一下雖然這一次我們有說讓總運算退回程序委員會但你們不要擔心這跟加薪3%這個沒有關係今天國民黨已經點出是哪幾個問題了我像你剛剛在回答其他委員的問題的時候"},{"start":11334.855,"end":11335.896,"text":"有請政委員天才質詢時間5分鐘"},{"start":11380.234,"end":11395.778,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請人事長有請蘇人事長 請政委員早早 非常謝謝這個人事長對於我們原住民的人事"},{"start":11396.977,"end":11423.69,"text":"人員的提升提拔讓這個有兩個地方政府就縣政府的人事處的處長能夠擔任由原住民來擔任非常謝謝這個需要繼續努力的就是園民會了原住民組委員會的人事處的處長也那個主任你們叫稱主任"},{"start":11424.724,"end":11445.228,"text":"人事室主任 未來會有機會啦 未來會有機會自從這個最少人口的毛近義少族的退休之後就沒有了所以要加油好 我們看這個這個就是上次也跟人事長討論過這個有關這個"},{"start":11449.54,"end":11478.499,"text":"原住民保留地的地方政府的工作人員那因為園民會園民會的圖管處的負責原住民保留地的工作人員都已經比照這個地政司內政部的地政司的這個專業家級來去做這樣的一個調整那現在就是地方政府的部分"},{"start":11479.901,"end":11498.756,"text":"嚴明會負責鹽住雲保留地那鹽住雲保留地如果我們看這個鹽住雲保留地開發管理辦法第二條的規定他就在中央主管機關中央是嚴明會在地方政府就是直轄市縣市政府"},{"start":11500.168,"end":11520.351,"text":"那當然就是不是縣政府的地政處是縣政府的延民處的一個原住民保留地管理科一個科他的業務就是完全跟中央延民會的圖管處一樣那在地方政府相公所的話你看"},{"start":11521.472,"end":11539.311,"text":"這個按照這個辦法的第二條本辦法之執行機關為鄉鎮事工所鄉鎮事工所基本上就一個或兩個人人數也不是很多所以如果我們從這個原住民保育地管理辦法的第5條都規定的很清楚"},{"start":11540.356,"end":11554.868,"text":"中央做什麼?縣市政府做什麼?鄉鎮市公所負責什麼業務?都寫很清楚像鄉鎮市公所他是一個執行機關包含原住民保育地的"},{"start":11559.284,"end":11583.472,"text":"相關所有權的如何取得如何分配如何收回如何相關的這些補償的事項都寫得很清楚所以這個部分如果我們從這個管理辦法44條總共有44條土地的管理土地的開發利用及保育零產物的管理"},{"start":11584.431,"end":11607.518,"text":"他就是中央人民會的圖管處到地方政府縣市政府的保留地管理科人數其實也不會很多所以這個部分要請人事行政總處能夠再加油所以以原住民保留地相關的法規就這麼多"},{"start":11608.868,"end":11609.228,"text":"國土計劃法內政部"},{"start":11628.078,"end":11643.865,"text":"涉及原住民族土地及海域者因依原住民族基本法第21條規定辦理由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族機關擬定擬定之後誰來執行就是縣政府"},{"start":11644.85,"end":11654.747,"text":"就是縣政府的原住民保留地課來去執行所以這個部分是不是請人事行政總處能夠再積極的來去協助"},{"start":11658.39,"end":11681.964,"text":"各位委員報告一下,今年大概3月7號、8號,我們有去臺東藏兵,還有花蓮的封兵,事實上有跟他們有溝通過,他們也有提出這樣的一個訴求,那我們同仁也有跟他說明,因為辦這一些嚴保地的業務,事實上是整個業務的範疇之一,現在的問題點是那一些大部分是綜合行政職系的人,"},{"start":11682.324,"end":11699.747,"text":"那上次我們在解決園民會的圖管處那些都是屬於地政職系的因為不同的職系他領的加級表會有不一樣不過委員的交代這個我想我們再來持續來跟我們同仁來溝通看看看有沒有什麼更好的方式可以來解決"},{"start":11700.508,"end":11723.504,"text":"謝謝委員保貴的意見非常謝謝你們在6月6號其實也有答覆一個公文給我了那我仔細這樣看了之後還是有需要去檢討的地方還是可以我認為還是可以去協助他們取得這個專業佳績以上謝謝好謝謝政委員謝謝人事長接下來有請賴委員事保諮詢"},{"start":11730.601,"end":11756.442,"text":"謝謝主席辛苦了齁那麼各位先進有請人事長好請輸人事長委員好委員長我想延續今天大家很關心的一個題目啦齁我上個禮拜二總執行就有提出來那因為你說的時間不多齁我還是再強調一個就是今年的3月我執行陳建仁院長的時候"},{"start":11757.483,"end":11772.347,"text":"他那時候給外界的感覺是今年今年不是去年不是明年今年的5月1號就可以全國放假了剛才很多委員都有提到了我就不贅述理由了那現在來講的話因為5月1號這麼重要的一個節日結果因為"},{"start":11778.729,"end":11788.594,"text":"人事總處這裡處理的滴滴塌塌讓大家造成很多家庭的困擾所以我就問你你說內政部要開跨部會的會議請問開了嗎這個你上個禮拜講的到目前還沒開這樣三個當時會開嗎"},{"start":11807.242,"end":11816.862,"text":"我比較沒有能力去幫內政部決定他的事情這個要決定你看喔勞工團體啊前幾天啊"},{"start":11818.283,"end":11839.755,"text":"勞工團體的相關聯盟在我們立法院群選開記者會希望勞基法修了以後7天國定假日回來就是裡面其實大家最在意的是一個教室節剛過的教室節一個行限紀念日就10月25號大家最在意的是這兩天請問這兩天決定請在年還是內政部"},{"start":11845.984,"end":11850.969,"text":"有一個你可以處理啦有一個可以處理啦那個假日有沒有連續放假你可以處理嘛對嘛就是你的責任來那我們就問了齁"},{"start":11872.681,"end":11885.178,"text":"這個在去年的時候幾乎都是連假掉了如果放禮拜二啦就放了禮拜一啦放了禮拜四就放就禮拜五這個做這個換"},{"start":11888.254,"end":11900.657,"text":"禮拜一換,這樣子可以廉價,結果公企我們沒,說放假放太多,結果你現在一修正之後啊,修正到昨天都沒了,都沒了,我們剛過的中秋節就是禮拜二嘛齁,再來的我們的國慶,禮拜四,下禮拜四,欸是賭掉了,啊你都不放啦齁,我請問你啦,這個放假是不是你應該考慮到老百姓的需要,社會的需要,對吧?"},{"start":11919.528,"end":11930.678,"text":"是我我我先不要我現在就明確的問你因為時間有限喔就是民俗節日我就具體講具體講春節大家要不要被團圓啊家庭要團圓啊中秋節要團圓的"},{"start":11940.593,"end":11951.199,"text":"這個最少最少春節中秋節端午節這三大節日有可以不可以就讓他連續放假我跟委員講我們現在一定會納進來的就春節跟就是清明掃墓"},{"start":11960.263,"end":11985.129,"text":"親民掃墓是大部分的人都會回鄉這兩個反而是中秋跟端午我們讓他有彈性因為如果經常連的話事實上我們現在改了新的遊戲規則明年會調整一次放假後年不會調整反而你有需要你去請一天這樣可以疏散這個人流不然每次有一次就沒兩次一定被人連"},{"start":11986.718,"end":11990.92,"text":"沒有啦我現在說的就是民宿你現在只有對春節跟掃墓嘛對不對那我說加一個中秋啦我覺得中秋需要啦因為中秋都要賞月第二天大家晚上這麼久活著第二天起不來啊這種東西考慮到家庭團圓就在這裡啦我委員報告中秋啊要唱應該是中秋節的假日因為你賞月是在15號賞不是在14號"},{"start":12012.992,"end":12014.292,"text":"我記得我在當兵的時候那個長官就講很清楚啊"},{"start":12037.947,"end":12062.387,"text":"他說我們給你15號沒辦法賞月你就16號有人說我提早給你賞月幹我都有啦14號也有賞月也有16號賞月的也有15號賞月都有啦不能用你的主觀就把它overlight這個事情啦所以我現在跟你講的就是除了春節加清明的掃墓之外plus一個啦中秋節啦"},{"start":12063.288,"end":12063.709,"text":"好 謝謝賴委員 謝謝蘇人士長接下來有請楊委員 瓊英質詢"},{"start":12102.656,"end":12118.541,"text":"委員好你剛回答的就是連續放假的問題那現在也因為這個假期會讓很多人的生活方式會改變譬如說這一次很多中秋節的活動"},{"start":12119.361,"end":12147.879,"text":"有人就擺在中秋節之後因為他沒有連續放假那所以這樣的情況我們看到的確是有必要要重新整體性的去檢討那到底這個聯休的部分要怎麼去做當然各行各業是不一樣的但是特別是在中秋節那這個剛剛您說會納入考量那你認為你要考量多久可以告訴民眾"},{"start":12148.76,"end":12177.426,"text":"那一個你的方向跟答案請教我這裡跟委員報告一個實際的情況因為我是住台南那台南的民間企業以前在中秋節那一天是沒有放假都是放8月16號隔天因為那一天晚上要賞夜大家不曉得賞到幾點然後隔天給他們放假台南的很多的製造業他們是採休中秋節的隔天事實上這一個"},{"start":12178.486,"end":12203.417,"text":"調整假日的東西我們現在的政策盡量不去移動它因為去移動的話可能會影響整個金融市場的交易因為我們台灣的金融市場你每天修一個跟國際上不一樣的會影響到整個金融活動影響還蠻大的所以我們自從改了新制的調整放假的這個辦法以後"},{"start":12204.858,"end":12207.179,"text":"所以你剛剛納入考量的是根本不可行"},{"start":12222.993,"end":12238.208,"text":"你現在回答這個都錄音錄影大家要知道你納入考量到底是可行或者是不可行你要有一個定內時間點嘛告訴社會大眾你如果現在這樣回答就是說不可能嘛我不會說不可能因為一定要顯出來"},{"start":12242.472,"end":12253.283,"text":"日曆掀出來,你如果說拜三中秋,你要去釣農曆,那不可能,那就是叫做不可能,但是,釣農曆不可能,釣一曆有可能嗎?釣一曆是可以考慮,釣一曆可以考慮,釣農曆就不要去想了。"},{"start":12258.889,"end":12288.218,"text":"你再調兩例我就沒辦法了你現在的答案給我們告訴我們說納入考量就是調一日連休的可能性是高的調兩日就是不可能的是不是如此我們一定要有一個方向然後你們去做討論再給社會大眾說明才不會繼續本席當然那我們有一個共識五一勞動節這個問題大家非常關心甚至藍綠白的委員都關心行政部門也關心那到底"},{"start":12288.779,"end":12292.916,"text":"到底五一勞動節會不會全國統一放假"},{"start":12294.266,"end":12318.635,"text":"就如同委員這個寫的政府的立場始終一致我們要尊重內政部的意思你剛才一直回答本席就等著你這一句話我們來討論喔也就是上游你認為上游是這個是內政部那你是下游但是我認為這樣的說法我不太認同因為民眾看的是政府那政府呢他的橫向"},{"start":12319.855,"end":12343.752,"text":"他所有的部會必須要充分去溝通了解如果只有回答人事長如果只有回答說我這個是上游我就等著他我只是執行那這個會讓人民有點失望如果說人民的聲音已經非常的大那你在末端即使你說的下游執行者你也應該提出你的論點然後政府部門"},{"start":12344.492,"end":12344.993,"text":"我跟委員報告 事實上"},{"start":12368.761,"end":12384.487,"text":"請做說明我跟委員報告事實上我們一直在跟內政部溝通因為你有溝通?有有一定有溝通的方向是什麼?就是說叫他那間刮刮的看五月齊有要泡嗎?你這樣說我就給你按讚喔你叫他快一點刮刮的那有沒有開會啦?他們內部還在討論啦"},{"start":12393.443,"end":12407.18,"text":"內部有在討論內部討論沒有邀請我參加我不是知道他們討論的情況如果以你的立場你認為5月1號勞動節要不要全部統一制"},{"start":12408.686,"end":12413.648,"text":"政府委員報告 我的立場就是沒有立場 我就是尊重我們團隊 內政部一割的 他割成怎樣 我就配合怎樣你的立場就沒有立場 我就要給你扣分了 剛剛才給你按讚你現在還說這樣 因為政府之間本身我們有分工"},{"start":12428.093,"end":12451.171,"text":"聽說當然啊但是為什麼要找跨部會就是要聽取大家意見啊這是公然大家知道的訊息啊所以我們有去拜託你也是其中一個好來我們有去拜託賴正波針對不只是勞動啦還有其他的節可能教師節啊金人節稍微大家坐一會去討論看看要怎麼處理嘛你有拜託喔我們期待你的拜託啊關鍵讓我們一個大案我們才不會亂起嘛"},{"start":12456.175,"end":12456.356,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12465.554,"end":12479.644,"text":"我要請教我們的公務人員的離職人數不斷的在增加比2021年你是增加了22.82022比2021增加了22.8退休的人數從5746那你增加到7635所以是缺額是不是目前的樣態"},{"start":12489.161,"end":12501.076,"text":"他跟以往也都差不多因為這裡增加22.8因為是統計數字他標示的因為有些人的離職是因為他普考要考上高考因為時間的關係本席把這個課題給你"},{"start":12505.021,"end":12519.975,"text":"也就是實際上數字告訴我們是缺額而且是退休是增加所以在這樣的情況之下你要怎麼樣去應對請你詳細書裡面資料給本席第二個議題也就是消防人員"},{"start":12520.896,"end":12542.12,"text":"我們現在大家都重視我們的小龍林丸消防體系很重要發生了屏東民養的事件發生了今年5月底的新竹的勤工會的事件造成了兩名我們的消防員的殉職讓我們非常的難過所以政府也看到"},{"start":12542.66,"end":12564.409,"text":"也知道這個問題的嚴重性也說特殊的特種協會特種協會那麼可以怎麼樣做有放寬但是本席要告訴你如果只有修正協會法你能夠解決我們警消面對的強力的植栽的壓力嗎所以本席具體告訴你"},{"start":12565.669,"end":12565.869,"text":"職業安全衛生法議題"},{"start":12588.357,"end":12604.128,"text":"禮拜三內政委員會會審這個議題我們也會派人出席你當然要派人出席啊你這很重要啊所以職業安全衛生法的向下也必須要納入進來一併討論因為公務人員的安慰方法的主管機關是在保訓會你不要再說這樣了"},{"start":12607.35,"end":12608.451,"text":"接下來有請黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":12646.65,"end":12670.203,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們一樣請人事長請蘇人事長齁 黃委員齁 欸 陳事長好 人事長剛剛大家齁 前面兩個委員都提到這個連假的問題本期本來沒有要討論 但是聽到您剛剛回應 我有一些想法想請教當然第一個當然就提到中秋節連假的部分 如果當然禮拜三齁 就沒什麼好要求了 但如果比如說碰到禮拜二"},{"start":12671.023,"end":12696.633,"text":"禮拜四有沒有機會連假剛剛人事長的意思是說這樣會影響到我們金融市場但我想跟市長說明我想金融市場應該沒那麼脆弱我想美股光是美股一年大概休市大概10天到12天甚至在連假前一天他可能只開半天的這個股票交易日所以如果這個金融市場是考量原因之一的話我想跟人事長報告其實我想分享這個應該不是太大的問題人事長你怎麼看"},{"start":12697.861,"end":12713.404,"text":"金融市場是我們考量的因素之一因為只要移動這個放假日我們必須要考慮到企業一般民間的還有金融業相關行業我們都一定會考量所以剛才我的"},{"start":12714.882,"end":12739.31,"text":"答案是很明確的禮拜三的話大概不會去變動如果是落在2跟4我覺得這是可以討論可是我們為什麼還要再去跟相關的人去做一些雖然我們的規定剛改啦規定剛改啦但是如果全民的期待是這樣我覺得很多事情應該要持一種比較開放的態度來"},{"start":12739.898,"end":12756.087,"text":"人事長你剛剛就是其他的假期問題比如說你剛剛說你要去尊重內政部我們也希望說其他單位也尊重一下我們人事長好不好你如果提說你要放讓他這個連下連起來我覺得其他單位也要尊重一下人事長不能都是你尊重別人啊別人也要尊重一下人事長啊對不對"},{"start":12758.397,"end":12777.772,"text":"各部會本身我們有一套溝通協調的一個默契啦好啦沒關係再來今天的主題我想問一下到底我們行政院是推動了這個築潮優利帶的評選方式喔這個應該是你們的業務吧我們的對阿這個評選方式怎麼評選一開始怎麼評選你們怎麼決定承作的這個銀行"},{"start":12781.072,"end":12807.919,"text":"我們會找一些專家寫者來就是看每一家銀行他提供的他的一個貸款的條件相關的然後選出幾家像這一次的是台銀跟中信然後在貸款有時候必須要去考量到銀行他基於風險管理有些條件像買比較"},{"start":12809.844,"end":12833.843,"text":"小的欸那個就是食品左右的他因為他要有一些財務考量而且要考慮到他的因為每一家銀行都有他的這個我了解啦當然有一個風管的我想公務人員頭當他本身他的在銀行在金融業他的條件本身就是相對比較好的啦那今天你們今天竟然推了這個竹槽優利帶他具有的應該是"},{"start":12834.924,"end":12863.141,"text":"某種程度上是官方有點背書因為我們評選出來了嘛評選的出兩家如果今天評選出兩家的條件是長這樣子那如果最後跟這個要去申代的人說這評數或什麼條件不符合那不就回到一般的金融市場了嗎那這樣其實你就不用特別評選了因為一般公務人員講真的你們是公務人員就很清楚如果你們到銀行去申代不管哪一家他今天就算沒有去乘坐你們的這個主草優利貸"},{"start":12864.122,"end":12889.43,"text":"你們到一般銀行去拿到的條件理論上從金融市場的角度來講本來就比較好那你今天特別去booking去表定出兩家能夠來乘坐這些優利貸的這個廠家然後在你們的官網你們還寫說剛剛你城市長你還提到說這個幾坪以下可能不乘坐但是在你們自己的問答裡面還特別提到購買可不可以申辦購買小套房可不可以申辦那"},{"start":12891.03,"end":12916.552,"text":"你們的QA裡面官方說法是可以但是官方說法是說可以結果到了承作銀行之後又找一大堆條件說這個不行甚至在他一開始在承作銀行的這個官網上面就直接講說購買小套房不可以生貸他連平都沒有平但是你們官網可以平所以這就是問題了嘛今天你提出來的這個條件長這樣子結果承作銀行完全不給你面子啊他也沒有尊重你啊他就直接說不行那這怎麼辦"},{"start":12918.97,"end":12936.264,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我們會去跟銀行溝通就是針對這些小坪數的因為有時候公務人員因為他整個財力負擔的問題我們會請銀行未來在做這方面的核貸的時候盡量給予比較寬鬆的"},{"start":12939.286,"end":12948.862,"text":"那當然剛才委員提的也有可能是屬於一種個案嘛因為每一個個體他本身的跟銀行往來的RECOR還有他本身相關的"},{"start":12951.316,"end":12971.533,"text":"動產不動產相關的資料信用的資料事實上當然各一行各樣的瘋狂但是我們今天提到一致性的問題啦因為今天我想這個以15坪為例啦一個公務人員一般的基層公務人員他的薪水不可能隨隨便便買個兩三千萬的房子我想在台北市也好台中市也好雙北也好15坪喔隨隨便便就破一千了"},{"start":12972.813,"end":12999.838,"text":"對一般的公教人員來講其實壓力也是很大更何況現在很多是單身的如果今天他只能買15坪以上我想這個政策推出來本來是好意但是如果你只能買15坪以上的物件的話某種程度上你等於是用這個方案去鼓勵公務人只能買更大的房子我想這跟這個我們現在要居住正義希望房價能降溫是背道而鎖的立場所以拜託一下我們這個人總處要跟這些承重銀行講如果今天"},{"start":13000.618,"end":13024.654,"text":"還有設這麼多條件才能承作那其實基本上你就不用推這方案了大家自己去申請就好因為今天他今天能夠放在你們官網上面某種程度上是所有鼓勵大家去跟他聲帶他可以拿到全台灣最好的這個名單客戶名單你們都是用詞客戶啊就他莫名其妙可以得到這個名單那他要付出相關的成本不能說我跟一般銀行承作條件是一樣的好不好"},{"start":13025.731,"end":13045.199,"text":"我們會跟這兩家銀行再去特別提醒他不要用這個當排除條件好謝謝謝謝主席長好謝謝黃委員謝謝蘇理人事長接下來有請張家俊委員張家俊張家俊委員不在有請陳委員培育質詢請"},{"start":13054.373,"end":13078.958,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請人事長好 請說人事長委員好 人事長你好好 我時間有限了 我想要看一下我們今天的業務報告裡面我想友善生育職場托育環境應該是我們很重要的政策不管各部會應該都有這個共識我想問一下幾年前立法院托嬰中心有說建制相關的新聞那一直到現在我想要問一下相關的進度或者是相關的空間"},{"start":13082.49,"end":13101.806,"text":"我這裡大概累積到今年6月30號機關自行設置的職場托育設施大概有195家啦這裡面托育中心含居家式的托育有16家幼兒園61家職場互助教保服務中心有118家"},{"start":13104.06,"end":13127.47,"text":"那這麼多數字看起來可能已經可以回應大家的需求那我們來往下看喔那可是呢在這個聯合辦公大樓這邊呢當時你們做這個報告那我先如果剛剛您講的這些是已經都回應了需求那我們來看另外一個問題我想要請教您未來因為體育署升格之後呢他們會應該會搬離那棟大樓對不對這個前提的假設我可以先這樣假設"},{"start":13129.01,"end":13152.387,"text":"有這個可能性那一棟大樓就會騰空另外還有華光特定專用區的聯合辦公大樓新建之後還有目前南北棟有一些單位應該也要搬離開那不知道人事總處你們針對你剛剛講的數字如果人事長你自己覺得滿意了不需要再增設嗎還是你覺得我們有更積極的可以把我剛剛現在講的這兩個空間做托育空間的提早規劃"},{"start":13153.635,"end":13182.297,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上我非常重視這個就是藍北洞的還有我們人力協議院在符合文教會館那裡我都請我們同仁去找專業人來評鑑因為他有樓層的限制還有評書的限制還有消防安檢的限制這個到最後藍北洞都沒有符合這個條件然後我們人力學院那裡沒有這個是以現況去做改造的"},{"start":13182.817,"end":13197.654,"text":"那另外一個我們也跟內政部也協調溝通過了就是未來在興建跟公務機關有關的他一定要預留這一個場地我時間有限吼免得我等一下被主席Q下台你剛剛講了興建的時候"},{"start":13200.877,"end":13219.895,"text":"臺灣各地目前還有非常多聯合辦公大樓的新建計劃我相信人事長你一定知道你是不是都有確保的掌握他們是不是有相關的規劃空間而且是提早規劃還是又會遇到到時候蓋完之後又相關的建築法規不合消防法規不合導致沒有辦法設置營業而托育空間"},{"start":13221.056,"end":13227.52,"text":"這個應該不會有這種情況發生因為工程委員會都有要求那我想這個部分我們辦公室也會再跟人事總處這邊一起努力我們一起後續去盤點一下在新建的大樓部分還有我剛剛跟您說的體育署要騰空那個部分或者是南北棟遷移的這個部分如果有相關的"},{"start":13243.568,"end":13253.017,"text":"的機制可以調整跟改善這個空間我相信從中央部會帶頭做示範應該是非常重要的事情因為我時間有限我們可不可以後續再跟人事總處這邊多進行討論"},{"start":13255.336,"end":13256.177,"text":"好 謝謝人事長"},{"start":13289.358,"end":13302.704,"text":"人事總署在108年有一個韓式對啦 但是我跟你說 你聽到總委有一個韓式你會說把判斷的權限下放給各個機關結果就是導致於就委員來跟我們陳情而且是我們的"},{"start":13303.664,"end":13320.472,"text":"公務員來跟我們陳情那代表就是沒有錯人事長您的想法是應該要算啊對不對但是你們的含釋就給了各個機關自由詮釋的空間我相信你一定也不希望我們的公務機關帶頭吃公務人員的豆腐對不對你覺得這件事情我們可以怎麼解決"},{"start":13322.069,"end":13339.61,"text":"毛委員你給我們這個那我們不要個案啦我們通案來盤點到底相關出了什麼事情你就把個案的個資弄掉嘛那我們就把個案轉通案來處理那我們有沒有機會不要只解決個案的問題一定有各個部會在你不知道的情況之下沒有跟你講好情況下他就把這個解釋就不算公實捏"},{"start":13342.373,"end":13357.042,"text":"我們來想辦法啦好不好其實說真的我們務實來看這個差異性會有啦就是我們就用個案轉成通案的方式來處理這樣會比較安全因為我可能手上個案也不過兩三個你有機會收集到更多的個案嗎"},{"start":13357.902,"end":13380.155,"text":"好了,那我們來討論,那我最後時間我把今天的訴求我再一次強調。第一個,相關中央聯合辦公托育大樓的托育需求空間規劃,還有新建的行政機關的辦公空間調整這件事情,我們辦公室會再跟人事總處積極的討論喔。還有就是未來公務人員上班時間外出差的工時計算這件事情,你們應該有更友善的措施啦。"},{"start":13380.535,"end":13387.947,"text":"那你108的那個喊到現在如果大家有解釋上的問題或是理解上的困難我們怎麼樣協助各個行政機關來解決這個問題好不好"},{"start":13391.424,"end":13412.961,"text":"有任何問題就交給我們,我們會給委員好,那我們辦公室會再積極跟你們約開會,我們希望一個月內我們來解決這些事情好不好好,來努力謝謝陳委員,謝謝蘇貞市長接下來有請徐委員新迎,徐新迎,徐新委員不在有請何新淳委員,何新淳,何新淳委員不在有請洪委員孟凱諮詢"},{"start":13422.633,"end":13448.664,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請蘇人事長請蘇人事長侯委員好好人事長好人事長那個針對我們人事總處的組織法寫得很清楚就機關員額的管理規劃督導的相關事項那人事長您在這一個法定職責上來講有沒有去好好的督促我們每一個機關用這個機關員額的一個管理規劃"},{"start":13451.977,"end":13467.672,"text":"我們每兩年都會做顏額的評鑑透過這個顏額評鑑來瞭解哪些顏額是不合理的使用我們也會做回收的動作是哪些顏額會做回收那哪些顏額有可能真的有要增加"},{"start":13468.392,"end":13468.932,"text":"其實這本席認同阿"},{"start":13496.223,"end":13496.383,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13519.435,"end":13544.309,"text":"所以這個人數也有原額的限制不能超過5%這個是天條還是有例外也有例外啦就是他如果落在他的組織法裡面有寫的話就有例外有些部會像國科會像數位部國科會還有應安會這一些都有"},{"start":13545.712,"end":13545.732,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":13576.312,"end":13586.618,"text":"應該他的原額來講是21位的聘用人員但農業部的公務預算編了27位多出了將近20%有基金預算編了4個人然後農業部的公務預算編了27人"},{"start":13596.741,"end":13622.667,"text":"僱用人員那另外 數發部數位發展部剛剛你有特別提到他照理講 原額換算只有30元的聘用人員可以使用但是他卻超標兩倍多現在114年的這個公務預算預算書裡面他是要用78位換算下來這是已經超標不只是5%我們的限制沒有守住他已經變成是十幾%了"},{"start":13624.048,"end":13651.17,"text":"我跟委員報告一下數發部的因為他整個就在組織法裡面直接就落下他有100個聘用人員的一般來講是一個整體的概念是5%可是少數機關像我剛才跟委員報告的數位部啦數發部國科會應安會這一種他直接落在組織法裡面教訓受理的運用就是說數發部到目前他們正式員額是不是還沒有用滿"},{"start":13652.78,"end":13680.616,"text":"還沒有用滿還沒有用滿那對於數發部如果說一開始我們講數位發展部一開始剛創立剛成立的時候我們也對他高度期待我們也認為是說有一些數位的人才確實他可能沒有辦法不受這個公務員的一個這個任用資格所以事實那個時候是有給他比較寬鬆的部分那但是數發部也已經成立多久了兩年多快三年嘛對啊那如果說這樣子"},{"start":13682.318,"end":13710.753,"text":"您認不認為說整個中央政府部會的一個人事任用還是要以正軌來講就是我們中央政府的這個人員還是以公務正式的公務人員為主那聘用人員為輔嘛那但是到目前為止速發部已經成立兩年多快三年了他正式公務人員沒有編滿沒有用滿但是他的聘用人員持續超標他變成是說已經是十幾趴啦聘用人員也沒有用滿喔"},{"start":13713.732,"end":13718.657,"text":"我知道你剛剛講100人嘛所以你現在78你是鼓勵他再繼續用聘用人員"},{"start":13721.09,"end":13745.324,"text":"委員長這不好笑啊本席很認真在跟你討論這個問題就在於是說以人事的角度宏觀來講各部會如果說你這樣子可以放寬你甚至你剛剛的這個態度好像在鼓勵速發部說快一點你們七十八個人而已還有二十二個那如果說這樣的話那你不就打擊一般公務員的士氣嗎那還有其他部會可以講啊我說我速發部很重要"},{"start":13746.544,"end":13765.84,"text":"教育部 教育部也覺得說我專任老師很重要那其他經濟部 我這個經濟趨勢發展很重要那到最後大家都不需要公務人員啊 我用聘用就好啦那是不是就看誰比較大聲 或是說誰可以比較有白骨 可以去要求 去請署"},{"start":13767.409,"end":13783.881,"text":"所以我在拉回來講的是說是不是應該還是要督促他們以正式公務人員而且我相信以中華民國公務人員的素質以及優秀程度來講他能夠考得上公務人員他當然對於這個新科技新技術可以有一些了解"},{"start":13785.768,"end":13810.119,"text":"我剛才在笑的原因就是因為數化部尤其治安署那裡我很清楚他們本來是要用業聘的那業聘是比較好用嘛可以馬上集戰力嘛結果後來他們用進來以後馬上就被銀行外面每一個人一個月加一兩萬全部挖了很多人走等於就是數位部治安署幫他們認證後來他們又把業聘的要轉成正職"},{"start":13814.221,"end":13843.807,"text":"他自己就發現說用業聘的他的代議他講不過外面所以他們又有提一個計畫在轉正職所以很多東西就剛開始規範的時候是有一個延額可是他實際目前我們了解整個樹花部整個部位大概有80幾%的倒值率還有大概15%以上還沒有倒值所以他倒值也不如意是不是不如預期壓力比較大吧"},{"start":13845.623,"end":13853.745,"text":"國人對於速發部的期待絕對不止於此你說過去這幾年的詐騙速發部沒有責任嗎你說過去這幾年的相關的這一些技術的進步速發部沒有責任嗎那速發部每一次到現在到目前為止你說兩三年過去了給國人留下什麼印象就一個點面線的系統"},{"start":13874.858,"end":13898.656,"text":"如果我要點麵線的話我用Foodpanda Uber Eats就可以了我根本不用速發部我不用每年花200多億的公務預算來給速發部來做這樣的事情人不好找我同意但是今天我跟你就教就是說人事總處的態度以及狀況而不是說今天這個小孩會炒得有糖吃這個小孩他不叫就沒有公務同仁一視同仁這是中央政府的一個基石不是嗎"},{"start":13899.497,"end":13928.315,"text":"所以既然速發部他一直有這樣的狀況正式的公務員都沒有辦法補滿那他到底是他有沒有積極的去找有沒有積極的鼓勵其他優秀的公務人員他可以來速發部來報效國家而不是說他們沒有去做這樣的部分然後又持續放任他用聘用人員這個部分應該才是人事長處再去檢討的地方我們跟速發部再一起討論看看有沒有哪些需要我們協助的地方"},{"start":13928.595,"end":13929.897,"text":"討論後有相關內容提供給我們洪委員"},{"start":13944.24,"end":13963.186,"text":"政政前委員 政政前 政政委員不在 高金素美委員 高金素美 高金素美委員不在所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員質詢時 要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者 請相關機關盡速送交 個別委員及本會"},{"start":13964.446,"end":13975.992,"text":"那麼委員：謝榮介：吳立華所提書面質詢．均列入紀錄．刊登公報．並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:30:13 - 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論。"},{"start":2451.731,"end":2478.77,"text":"綜上說明請各位委員支持行政院提案之修正之都市更新條例並於本會期完成立法程序。同時本部也感謝王委員、李委員以及都會委員的提案。請供本部建議參考。那上請各位委員參考。謝謝大家。那也要再次跟大家拜託本案其實涉及到許多地方的都市更新特別是雙北地區所以懇請大院委員給予支持。謝謝。"},{"start":2481.288,"end":2492.717,"text":"好,謝謝董事長。各位委員,現在王鴻薇委員已經到了,我們是不是讓她提案說明一下?好,那請王鴻薇委員。"},{"start":2499.552,"end":2526.452,"text":"謝謝主席還有謝謝我們各位委員讓我來做補充說明我用最簡單的方式來跟大家報告這次為什麼在這個都市更新條例應該在進行做修法那大家都知道我們都更條例其實已經實施26年了但是呢整體來說特別在雙北地區的都更速度其實非常非常的緩半不但是牛步化其實是龜步化"},{"start":2528.333,"end":2534.597,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員李彥秀等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。二、審查委員李彥秀等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2551.167,"end":2555.252,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2568.729,"end":2574.857,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2584.429,"end":2597.212,"text":"是在容積管制實施之後才完工所以導致認定上產生了爭議所以為了保障更多的合法建物可以他們參與都更那麼對於容積率獎勵所以我們希望是將都更條例65條針對可以容積重建或申請容積獎勵為實施容積管制前"},{"start":2607.415,"end":2621.379,"text":"以新建完成的合法建物改為實施融資管之前已經申請建造的合法建物這樣把它預估起來也將近會有8216棟大概有27萬戶的受惠所以其實僅僅是這樣的一個改變就可以提高更多的度更誘因讓更多的"},{"start":2632.704,"end":2634.429,"text":"老舊建物可參與督更"},{"start":2641.462,"end":2665.941,"text":"好 謝謝王委員那我們現在進行詢答委員執行前原例做一下幾點宣告第一本會委員發言時間5分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員發言5分鐘上午10時30分截止發言登記那因為今天處理法案我們本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2667.458,"end":2672.582,"text":"沒有齁好那我們現在進行詢答請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員發言好謝謝主席那我們就請董次好好請董次本來想問部長啊但是董次也是專家"},{"start":2698.446,"end":2698.987,"text":"老舊屋舍更新速度"},{"start":2712.817,"end":2715.419,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":2743.257,"end":2743.857,"text":"都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2766.164,"end":2788.156,"text":"那所以被外界引誘為這個現在最熱門的金華城的爭議這邊竟然是說是由國土署出了函證明這件事情它的金華城的容積率是合法的我想聽聽看吳署長及董事內政部的國土署這邊你們對這封函的解釋是這樣嗎?你們已經就個案認為它合法了嗎?來請說明"},{"start":2795.54,"end":2815.768,"text":"感謝委員那其實那一天最主要大概在詢問的是有關容積率訂定的部分是那所以我們會把整個全國性的容積率獎勵的政策去做一個說明你們被詢問的是都市計畫容積管制及獎勵容積法源中央及地方法規事宜嗎"},{"start":2817.388,"end":2830.552,"text":"對,所以我們當然是希望因為從中央到地方都優先以訂定法規所以第一你希望中央跟地方都訂定法規對,所以是訂定在地方就當然是始於都市計畫的適應細則"},{"start":2832.353,"end":2835.956,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2853.851,"end":2863.697,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2883.61,"end":2887.872,"text":"由各案來自行訂定。好 署長我也很認真的讀了你這個這張函的七大項那我同意你這張函裡面其實重點就是你說的第一你講的這個都市計畫這樣子的歷史脈絡"},{"start":2900.279,"end":2914.702,"text":"第二你認為確實因為一個大的都市計劃法下去之後要到各個地方要因地方質疑所以可以有台灣省的都市計劃實施細則但直轄市就由直轄市來訂定沒有錯由直轄市來訂定那麼我想請問現在直轄市哪一個我們這這麼多個台灣這麼多個直轄市裡面哪幾個有訂哪幾個沒訂"},{"start":2925.064,"end":2949.335,"text":"其實現在就是各個職業市都有細則那臺北市是屬於自治條例跟細則都有那所以都是分別要求他們在裡面去訂定這才叫做全市一體適用那你這邊也要求了各個地方政府要自行訂定之後其實你的六和七你應該把它寫得更清楚一點啊你的第六項和第七項、第六項"},{"start":2952.335,"end":2965.521,"text":"第七項裡面其實寫得很清楚啊是我們整個都市要能夠發展一定要有一個大的框架整體來規劃一個城市規劃了之後即便在城市裡面分區也會有分區的都市計畫沒錯然後你在分區的都市計畫下面"},{"start":2973.604,"end":2984.372,"text":"你才可以就每一個案件去決定它的樣態包括它的容積率上限等等所以導回來每一件個案不應該超越分區的計畫更不應該超越整個都市的計畫我的理解應該是這樣沒有錯吧"},{"start":2989.155,"end":2990.857,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3009.318,"end":3011.739,"text":"對阿第七段你既然第六段是人應回歸第七段就寫不應阿不應該是個案這樣就不會有差別不會有這個解釋的空間了嘛不然現在媒體把你解釋說國土署出了一個函說這個個案是合理的是合法的我感覺這樣不會通啦"},{"start":3029.289,"end":3031.111,"text":"對,我們不針對個案解釋,我們只希望都市的發展應該有一個總量的管制。"},{"start":3045.529,"end":3046.15,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":3060.486,"end":3064.609,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":3090.345,"end":3114.51,"text":"可以加速,那你大概什麼時候會完成這個檢核、檢視並且下指令要求?我們會在一個月內就把它全部確認清楚好,一個月之內全部確認清楚每個直轄市是不是有適當的在施行施責或自治條例內訂定了這個通案原則一個月之內請提交報告到我們這個給我們辦公室甚至是內政委員會好,這是第一個部分"},{"start":3115.55,"end":3118.533,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":3136.687,"end":3153.921,"text":"也開了會針對之前的幾項缺失您做了調整那我想請問這個政策方向如果改變要能夠直接上路的話應該要有要點訂定吧是董事什麼時候要點可以出來因為方向很好啊你也都支持啦我們在半年內就會完成"},{"start":3155.017,"end":3177.555,"text":"你是開完會的半年吧,不能從今天起出來半年吧,這樣又差兩個月了。這樣三個月啦,我來查去,三個月之內提出要點,你方向都已經有了嘛,三個月之內啦好不好,董事,這個部分要點麻煩,這個都市更新的貸款要點,既然已經有修正方向了,麻煩在三個月之內把要點訂定出來。好,謝謝董事。好,謝謝。謝謝委員。好,謝謝。"},{"start":3188.581,"end":3189.663,"text":"好,我們請麥育貞委員。謝謝主席。有請董事長。好,請董事。"},{"start":3212.656,"end":3232.114,"text":"市長好委員好有請教一下我們租宅租賃定型化企業改為實資實收可以房東有提供電費資訊的義務但是上個月陸續有地方政府"},{"start":3233.341,"end":3250.019,"text":"進行稽查市面上的販賣的市售租載租賃契約書還是舊的如何買到如果買到舊版簽約怎麼辦。第二個市長可不可以保證"},{"start":3252.101,"end":3269.893,"text":"雜數改善這件事情不要讓租客受到權益的搜尋還有除了定型企業之外本辦接到很多的陳情表示實施新的電費後房東變相漲價房租公共電費也上漲巧立明目將電費轉嫁到房客的負擔"},{"start":3280.089,"end":3298.166,"text":"知道我們次長知道這個事情嗎?知道,跟委員及各位委員報告首先第一個我們的市售契約書我們已經更新了那麼在本部的網站上面都有新的資料那我們也建議就是說相關的那個"},{"start":3298.926,"end":3324.834,"text":"我們的房客或者是房東如果買到舊的契約書可以從那個網站上面下載之後做一個修正這樣子這是無分那我們也要求相關的契約書他們應該要進行一些修正就是舊版的契約書他應該可以服貼做一些修正這個我們正在要求當中所以我們會有新的契約書即將趕快上市那我們在我們的網站上已經公佈我們新版的"},{"start":3325.094,"end":3330.316,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3346.505,"end":3347.586,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":3368.537,"end":3380.021,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第"},{"start":3395.866,"end":3404.055,"text":"但是房科也可以先是政府消保或者地政單位提出申訴或檢舉但是檢舉後房科身份就曝光了房東就說我不契約了這樣子的合理嗎?"},{"start":3412.415,"end":3413.055,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":3442.695,"end":3448.817,"text":"電費也漲價這樣的話就是很重要的一個民生問題所以租屋主已經很辛苦了不應該就是再剝削一成品我們要求就是市長這邊一定要加強稽查機稽查所以我們要如何加速社會住宅的改革還有合理負擔就是讓我們要租屋的生活壓力可以減少"},{"start":3472.363,"end":3481.887,"text":"法輔基金會法律資訊服務法律資訊服務法律資訊服務法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法輔基金會法�"},{"start":3492.011,"end":3496.693,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。"},{"start":3512.08,"end":3518.648,"text":"三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。六、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。"},{"start":3528.579,"end":3544.208,"text":"任性委員會沒有法源依據如果沒有立法根本不能動員更沒有預算的支出請問次長如何解決還有全社會防衛任性委員會的預算從哪裡來還有哪一個部會的編列請次長可以解釋嗎"},{"start":3551.191,"end":3553.414,"text":"民防法第1條明確規定為了有效運用民力發揮民間自衛自救的功能達到平時災防救護的狀態進行相關民防動員"},{"start":3567.228,"end":3588.157,"text":"那相關的民防動員的工作範圍包括搶救重大災害還有維持地方治安或者擔任民間自衛那整個的民防團體的組織是由直轄市還有相關的單位他會有所謂的民防總隊以及我們在特種的一些單位比方說公民營事業裡面他就有特種防護單位這些都是為了要保護"},{"start":3588.957,"end":3589.498,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":3605.713,"end":3617.996,"text":"講得很好,沒有法源的依據可以控制政府的預算嗎?有,我們有法源的依據,我們是民法,民法法裡面有明確的規定。我剛才跟委員解釋,民法法裡面有明確的規定,從民法法第一條第二條都有明確的說明。所以我是說你講得很好,所以說依據你講的,我要求說在一週內可以提出具體的報告。"},{"start":3633.2,"end":3641.688,"text":"讓我們了解詳細的規劃這樣的話是讓更多人去了解因為就要先聽你說而已我們會提供相關的資料我們繼續請徐域臻委員"},{"start":3662.954,"end":3665.947,"text":"謝謝主席我們是不是請董次長好請董次"},{"start":3675.775,"end":3702.677,"text":"市長早市長早市長我想請教您就是根據我們今年Q1的全台住宅平均屋齡已經達到32年那其中屋齡30年以上的比例就達51%50年以上的就101萬戶也就是兩間平均兩間就一間是30年以上的這個老房子那請問一下對於老房子的重建我們現在的政策是什麼"},{"start":3703.848,"end":3706.211,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":3721.124,"end":3737.595,"text":"那請問一下因為其實採用危老條例之後多更可能就更加困難了為什麼因為危老條例並沒有限制這個改建的這個基地面積對不對對所以說像現在台南就有一個就是9.13坪的建築面積重建"},{"start":3738.295,"end":3743,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3759.817,"end":3781.051,"text":"首先跟委員報告小面積的建築我們當然會檢討但是它其實也是屬於條例符合的內容我們也鼓勵相關的建物其實當初在制定的時候就是希望說有一些降低一些那個都更的門檻讓真正危險的房子他們有機會能夠有重建的機會這是小面積的那個"},{"start":3782.701,"end":3805.402,"text":"對,那小面積獎勵當然就比較少,所以我們會積極來做一些研討研擬,那我們相關的危老條例呢,我們也會進行那個檢討,因為相關的屆期已經將近,那我們就已經推動相關的課題的檢討,那國內外危險建物的一些重建制度的延期,還有一些產官學的一切。那像這個危老時程的容積獎勵的話,應該是到這個明年就會這個嗎?"},{"start":3806.543,"end":3809.504,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":3835.67,"end":3839.395,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":3852.046,"end":3878.94,"text":"對,那這樣的話我們這個內政部針對這個部份要怎麼營業?有沒有什麼具體的措施?跟委員報告,其實我們在一方面是鼓勵就是說它能夠,因為最主要裡面現在降不下來其實是工資那因為材料、建材有一些部分都降價,但剩工資降不下來所以我們都鼓勵這個營造廠能夠多提出一些類似像這個像那個玉珠或者是這個系統模板"},{"start":3879.48,"end":3885.164,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案案案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案案》案。"},{"start":3900.234,"end":3927.365,"text":"但是應該由內政部提出的預祝公法容積獎勵修法原來是應該上半年就要規劃這個應該要提出來的但目前好像飄飄喔也跟委員報告最主要是因為經過詳細的市場調查現在有能力乘坐而且是長時間乘坐的加數比較少那我們也擔心如果是只有因為這樣就提出預祝公法可以獲得榮獎的話"},{"start":3928.545,"end":3956.629,"text":"它很可能只有少數的廠商能夠使用所以我們會接下來討論如果不寫預註公法而是改用這一類像我們剛剛所講的你是系統模板的那是不是它也可以適用那請問什麼時候可以提出我們最近會在開會再來修正因為最主要是調查因為你剛講的狀況的話這種預註廠商不可能在短期內就會以這個碼所以我們會修最主要是修改那個公法內容那是大概什麼時候可以提出總不可能這樣一直無限期的下去了"},{"start":3957.109,"end":3965.815,"text":"公文報告我們在年底之前會做出一份報告出來來分析一下這整個適用的一個市場性是怎麼樣希望還是要因為我想這個我們不管是這個融資獎勵辦法到國土計畫法的執法其實到現在都還是很嚴當"},{"start":3972.279,"end":3974.1,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":3995.365,"end":4004.691,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團"},{"start":4022.775,"end":4050.249,"text":"跟委員報告我們剛才已經報告過了我們是依據民防法消防法災害救助法等等相關條例我們去準備這個那這個的重點我剛才還是強調是針對我們的自然災害跟天然災害的發生我們是強化我們要強化因為我剛才講過先自救才能他救我們要訓練所有的國人針對這樣子的一個相關的危險的狀況要配合這些事情的話預計要花費多少的預算跟經費"},{"start":4051.857,"end":4079.533,"text":"我們目前正在估算當中我們大概因為我在預算書裡面好像沒有看到編列相關的經費除了你原來之前的我們是依據我們目前的相關的經費去做推動因為這些東西本來就在民防法裡面就有規範所以本來我們是民防大概是20萬人力嘛你現在變成40萬民兵所以你還是用原來的經費去推動的話那這個部分你們有辦法推動嗎"},{"start":4080.253,"end":4093.946,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇"},{"start":4103.675,"end":4121.457,"text":"可是呢因為其實在6月的時候確實有宮廟收到苗栗縣後備指揮部的公文要求簽署彈藥預存點的支援協定書那請問這個部分的話目前是不是就暗示說我們這些彈藥有可能會放在宮廟裡呢"},{"start":4122.403,"end":4144.199,"text":"沒有我想當初那個公文其實不是這個意思我們只是要去了解周邊的環境的狀況我要再一次強調公廟本來就是放香火他不是放軍火那我們希望是說透過整個全體民防的加強特別是針對我們一些相關物資的準備因為很多物資需要準備的地方像今天颱風嘛"},{"start":4145.16,"end":4148.162,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4166.055,"end":4166.295,"text":"黃建斌委員"},{"start":4193.302,"end":4196.763,"text":"市長早安委員長市長其實最近回去台東跑選區的時候很多民眾都在問國土計劃法國土計劃法要不要寫要不要寫這樣然後想要請教市長我們當時為什麼要提國土計劃法"},{"start":4221.621,"end":4244.682,"text":"目的是什麼?簡單的講一下國土計劃法是在2015年的年底由當時的立法委員在馬總統執政的任內裡面所提出的當時所提出的目的是希望能夠維持整個國土的空間秩序那透過國土空間秩序的維護保障整體的生態環境的安全跟台灣國土的永續"},{"start":4245.802,"end":4260.333,"text":"這是當時立法的宗旨也是當時立法的目的簡單的說就是讓該發展的地方發展需要保護的地方保護讓我們的土地更加有效使用應該是這樣對不對?差不多是這樣那其實理想是很好的不過現實其實還蠻骨感的"},{"start":4261.934,"end":4286.954,"text":"部長如果這個計劃真的這麼好吼我民進黨22個委員就不會再這一次出來集體開記者會要求國土工人分區土要延後來公佈你知不知道有什麼會出來講這個事情我跟委員報告吼那相關的資訊呢我們會持續跟大家溝通但是我要跟各位委員報告就是說整個法令在相關的2018年的時候已經公佈了全國國土計劃"},{"start":4288.235,"end":4292.34,"text":"那在2021年的時候也將各縣市的國土計畫各縣市也都送上來了"},{"start":4292.967,"end":4318.005,"text":"那這一次的套諜圖就是將2021年各縣市所公布的國土計畫去套諜上第幾資料就是這樣那這個套諜的過程當然就有很多可以討論的地方那各縣市政府應該本於全責去討論各縣市的狀況那我相信各縣市政府他們會積極去運作站在本部的立場我們就是依法我們希望各縣市把你們套諜出來的資料送上來之後我們大家進一步來討論"},{"start":4319.987,"end":4336.625,"text":"市長會這麼多委員跳出來要求要延後最重要最重要原因就是民眾的反應最直接了因為他們很怕什麼?很怕國土計畫法會破壞土地價值就是我一開始講的我回去選區大家都問說 秉仔這到底會接受嗎?他反對他的土地啦"},{"start":4339.158,"end":4343.42,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4361.169,"end":4375.099,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇"},{"start":4388.617,"end":4391.34,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":4403.912,"end":4423.997,"text":"跟委員報告好首先整個過去區域計劃法是11種用地方是16種地目那這個過程裡面其實是造成很多人有能力的人他就去申請改變沒有能力的人其實他也沒辦法申請改變未來我們的國土計劃法其實是用容許許可的就是我們直接告訴大家你這個土地上本來就可以做什麼"},{"start":4424.457,"end":4425.137,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":4446.269,"end":4447.629,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4468.414,"end":4468.994,"text":"三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":4487.01,"end":4514.098,"text":"對,我們當然相信這個計劃法推動是對整個未來的發展是有幫助不過就像本席一直強調的若是這麼好,沒有這麼多委員會跳出來說我們在東亞先選一個這個整個要好到克魯茲因為那個影響會層面非常大現在我們像講到農業好了農一農二其實像雖然你可能覺得農一農二差距不大可是其實差距不大的話那像曾經平東縣政府就把農一跟農二大量的劃分做很大的區隔"},{"start":4514.958,"end":4520.882,"text":"農醫5778公頃農二面積達到57296公頃農醫農二比例是1比10本市所在的東縣我們也是農業維族的縣市我們的比例就不是這樣子我們台中縣的比例是農醫是10866農二是6745"},{"start":4543.022,"end":4547.984,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":4562.908,"end":4576.567,"text":"我跟委員報告,各縣市的國土計劃,我剛才講過在2021年各縣市的國土計劃是由各縣市政府進行相關的檢討,那根據各縣市地方政府的相關的需求,他去做檢討,那麼"},{"start":4577.688,"end":4593.095,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4603.2,"end":4607.163,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員李彥秀等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4628.638,"end":4655.635,"text":"那最後想要問一下都市今天我們討論到都市更新的這個問題臺東縣的地理維持比較特別我們都換處比較多啦都是透天的透天處比較多那都市更新主要是讓我們區域內的環境衰敗公司缺乏自然惡化可以透過都市更新讓我們這個地方能夠再活化那雖然目標很宏大推動上可是其實很困難因為特別是在人性的部分建商跟人這個的糾紛會一直不斷"},{"start":4657.779,"end":4658.339,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":4677.032,"end":4705.854,"text":"錯是跟委員報告啦,其實以台東縣的狀況應該是適用危老危老機會會比較高那因為危老即便是透天厝他也有相關稅賦方面的一些獎勵就是說他在過程他可以減免一些稅賦那所以這一點我想都可以給委員參考因為像台南市中心區也有很多是透天厝他們後來也是改用這個方式來申請這都值得鼓勵謝謝市長也謝謝那個那個署長謝謝"},{"start":4707.329,"end":4708.53,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4733.095,"end":4743.22,"text":"市長好委員好訪台友各位來了啦是大家比較辛苦齁對 大家到處拍照頂著這次開明颱風來齁真的它這火水量可以說是落幾年這兩三天落幾年份的啦"},{"start":4749.983,"end":4763.95,"text":"阿黨很多區域,各黨這個農田也好,枕頭也好,黨市來也好,都總有做成運輸的過分。阿請問我們這個下水道的工程清瘀,這是我們國土署的業務嗎?下水道清瘀?我們有補助我們地方政府,阿有一些地方政府自己要主編的。阿我們這樣做起來,你覺得那個署長在這裡,你覺得那個效益怎樣?"},{"start":4780.541,"end":4787.683,"text":"國務委員報告,在修正的這個請索,這是絕對是最好的一個做法,可以檢討很多我們稍未搞的這個問題的戰線。國務委員報告,我們每一年會前大概二、三個時分都會接到政府來。當然現在我們有可能,像我們在地比較大的問題來說,因為國土組織平時,府籍都起來,"},{"start":4807.691,"end":4818.44,"text":"但是我們也知道整個系統處理到外面它有可能是屬於我們這個地方自己管的大牌或是說中央管的這個河川所以雖然這就是說整體系統性我是覺得說可以繼續加強它主要差別在這裡如果沒有都市界會來補分這十多年來其實是好過不來的對啦 聽說這個外資系統它要需要整體的工廠改善不然清瑜這是非常重要是"},{"start":4837.335,"end":4844.36,"text":"像我們整體性油,我們這個出水口,從旁邊到出水口這個整體性的清衣像我過去黨員頂到,我們後面的店是金閣婚姻館地理的大鄉店的鄉店市啦,鄉店市就是地理的大的啦,林口手地理的大我們一年的這個清衣銷水道的清衣工程經費一年當時30萬的啦"},{"start":4866.095,"end":4869.497,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4887.006,"end":4890.128,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":4911.842,"end":4915.364,"text":"當第一次開明颱風來時,整體各國受災的環迴就真的縮小。主要是這個系統性做得起來。這個代表說,這個外資系統的系統性,我們在做盡力。"},{"start":4928.709,"end":4934.013,"text":"那真的是有好過的希望國土署內政部可以對國管局的訴求做合理的一個構築當然地方也要開那樣可以更新來防範這個水災委員報告 我想我們再來檢討因為我們更新地方有時候是火水下水就整體會通行"},{"start":4955.411,"end":4961.132,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案"},{"start":4984.568,"end":4993.195,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":5007.039,"end":5015.884,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。第三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":5030.759,"end":5031.26,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5047.362,"end":5061.448,"text":"第二,我們的執法一定在年底一定會完成在完成過程中會向大家報告說這個執法對大家的關於的保護其實比較重要的其實是委員所觀察的農地問題包括農地的補助這部分農地上面可以去做什麼可以做什麼我剛才有報告過,以前是要用省省的未來是用農學就是說我們上面跟你說說你可以做什麼你就按照那個規範去處理就可以了"},{"start":5076.334,"end":5081.816,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5104.242,"end":5114.23,"text":"請就是各位這樣通過後實施後,那如果比如我們這個農業的土地這樣會相對,它的計劃性會怎樣計劃?我跟委員報告,其實農地的計劃應該是在農地本身的農業生產的過程裡面,它的那個計劃。委員所說的農業計劃可能就是說農地如果有人想要變經做百合輸用的時候來處理,來我請主席。"},{"start":5133.656,"end":5148.069,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我們兩黨前就大概有跟這個全國的公家署公家署因為我們現在土地本都是用公家署還有這個土地代書一部分來做所以我們其實兩黨外情就"},{"start":5150.49,"end":5153.711,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":5168.302,"end":5170.924,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":5198.848,"end":5201.529,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案。」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案。」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案。」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案。」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇"},{"start":5231.258,"end":5244.909,"text":"國民是針對我們的責任不是說因為國民我們要來修這個法我認為有一點說不太過我們要跟你談這一點就是說我們修這個法當中因為最近有公教我就是國中的"},{"start":5258.342,"end":5258.362,"text":"眾議院議員"},{"start":5261.004,"end":5270.906,"text":"來,在這裏面我認為今天我們要審判都市更新條例的容積率的關節已經取得建築或未去好的或去好的或準備要去的是不是都可以去突破現在的容積率的上限在這裏面我們是要鼓勵我們這裡"},{"start":5290.646,"end":5303.471,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":5315.793,"end":5336.167,"text":"感謝委員,我們就是這個部分主要是過去頂這個法律的時候,我們現在圓融的獎勵都一樣,都沒變,就是說沒突破原來圓融百分之三十的那些融獎都沒有突破,它是試用,因為過去受害的時候,大家規定說你融資你定定金錢,你就應該要棄好了。"},{"start":5337.708,"end":5339.088,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5362.935,"end":5366.458,"text":"對啦,有的是他去申請這條啊,但是他還沒去嘛。對,就去還沒好啦,都知道去還沒好。就去還沒好就是適用那個農資理嘛。是是是。是不是這樣?對,就所以他沒辦法適用這個獎項的時候,我們是說比較不公平啦。"},{"start":5378.046,"end":5384.569,"text":"第二對他們來說因為沒有適用圓融的時候就一個制度來說的確會有兩種不同的標準的問題所以地方政府過去也覺得有一點困擾所以也希望我們可以來做一個重新的調整所以這次才有這個修法的做法出來"},{"start":5400.037,"end":5411.107,"text":"因為我覺得這個問題存在在一八十年開始在地方的問題就都有這個的關係也看到我們中央在現在要修這個法對地方也好對中央也好就是有聽到地方的聲音"},{"start":5421.431,"end":5446.427,"text":"要讓屋主可以適用我們未來修的法律不說實在有的人也不知如何說到底可以適用還是不可以適用在這兩天我相信政治最近有去加以淇跟署長對加以淇也很了解剛才本席坐在那裡時聽到"},{"start":5448.849,"end":5459.098,"text":"我們正式的說,剛才的事是對選舉的重要性。署長說,對南部、對嘉義市,可以是維羅的重要性。在嘉義市的維羅,你知不知道有多少?來,署長,還是正式,你要回答這個嗎?"},{"start":5473.561,"end":5476.144,"text":"國際市可以適用的大樓機很少,差不多八十幾棟而已,但是威羅三十棟以上應該是很多,因為我們國際市有六、七棟,有的處身地是一本時代,就開始都有了。"},{"start":5491.101,"end":5497.523,"text":"所以這就應該是數量非常大因為每一個地方每一個地方沒有工像我現在的工廠就是現在的農場的圍爐很多就是像北省說的說我也想買土耕"},{"start":5516.191,"end":5527.803,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5531.167,"end":5542.231,"text":"跟委員報告啦,其實我們每一年都有補助我們地方政府啦有更加維勞的這個輔導團,輔導團的補助第二就是說,其實過去大家對套廳的,覺得說我套廳的時間有改變而已但是,對有一些人來說,因為我可能這個手術,手術比較不夠那樣我有需要代看,我去劇情處有需要代看還是說,他這個稅,他這個相關的稅,看我怕不怕"},{"start":5559.338,"end":5566.084,"text":"這部份其實在委員會內都有提供,只是過去在地方政府內因為可能的運送都比較尖對大樓,比較不會去收到套廳,所以這點比較喜歡耗耗這個福德團這邊,可以來加強做選民,要加強做選民,因為我覺得,你看加起來,他的委員會,他有申請要去的,你看有20多間,我們的都間,"},{"start":5589.349,"end":5595.376,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":5609.352,"end":5611.133,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5628.57,"end":5629.81,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5654.739,"end":5676.836,"text":"公判都綱應該是有政府介入嘛 第一是政府的嘛應該是未來要去的時候 要賣的時候 會比我們普通的健康對 我了解你講的意思還要想嘛是啦 如果公判都綱李彥秀應該是這樣對不對跟李彥秀就不是這樣啦我了解所以我想為自己是這麼多人 那如果我問的時候 我也找幾句 哈哈哈哈"},{"start":5684.781,"end":5692.443,"text":"怎麼會這樣呢?因為一般你要給他都檢公辦的,就是我們的廚房的介紹不能夠那麼廣嘛!但是你知道嗎?12月7日第11屆有中環廟室以來,都檢公辦的在12月7日。"},{"start":5706.71,"end":5712.351,"text":"市長這很大的問題我們希望地方會更進步地方可以更好我也認同你剛才說的整個地方都在更老的地方都在更大條的地方但畢竟他的地是公共的他們不應該介紹是這樣因為時間"},{"start":5732.295,"end":5732.876,"text":"主席,我們請黃介委員"},{"start":5765.117,"end":5769.786,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請部長跟那個郭突署署長好請部長跟署長"},{"start":5780.07,"end":5800.815,"text":"部長辛苦了剛剛參加那個防災會議希望接下來一切順利啦希望大家都可以防台平安那首先先請教一下部長因為其實在三天前我們立法院有一位同事他在臉書上發了一個我們國土署回函給他的公文這個在講什麼他在講說"},{"start":5803.496,"end":5824.845,"text":"經華城給的這個20%的容積獎勵其實是在我們國土署認可的合法的範圍內。我不知道他這樣的解釋是你們國土署的意思嗎?因為他在裡面很明確的提到說我們國土署有寫到說避免就特定或單一對象針對細部計劃創設獎勵的項目規定。國土署的回文確實有寫到這一條。"},{"start":5830.407,"end":5856.816,"text":"但他說避免不是禁止避免不是禁止所以代表可以代表合法是這樣子嗎我們尊重個別委員在我們對於國土署所提供的這個相關法律規定上面的說法但是呢站在我們內政部或者是國土署的立場上面第一個我們只提供通案法律規定上面的一個解釋跟說明"},{"start":5857.336,"end":5885.717,"text":"那對於各案不介入尤其是已經是進入偵查的階段但是我希望黃委員可以給我們國都署的署長就他提供給個別委員上面的通案規定再跟委員做一下詳細的說明這個脈絡一定要講清楚會特別在這邊提是因為你們回函的這個公文白紙黑字不要變成單一個案的合法的背書變成到時候法庭上他們拿來依據的"},{"start":5886.777,"end":5902.735,"text":"這樣的一個證據也感謝委員的詢問因為他所來函的當然是希望就針對這整個容積率獎勵的一個規定希望我們提供一些說明所以我們也把過去容積率獎勵從全國通案性"},{"start":5903.255,"end":5919.88,"text":"的一個概念去找地方政府一起來溝通但是很重要的是要求地方政府要放到自己的施行細則或者是自治條例裡面作為詮釋性的通用的一個原則所以這一點呢"},{"start":5920.78,"end":5945.861,"text":"所以不管後面的個案是怎麼申請我們裡面有提到均因回歸主要計畫還有細則或自治條例的規定這個前提很重要嘛對,不管怎樣都應該要這樣所以最後一段才會補上避免要針對單一個案去做處理所以都是用這樣的脈絡我想我們歷年來在處理所有的地方政府的提案都是用這樣的方式在進行"},{"start":5946.556,"end":5974.822,"text":"所以今天特別在這邊問是希望說內政部在針對這樣子的文字說明的時候一定要把整段的這整個脈絡講清楚然後我們給予容積獎勵的原則到底是什麼這個也一定要非常非常明白甚至是我認為你們應該要具體的建議說地方自己在定自治條例或是施行細則的時候這些原則性的東西到底針對哪一些條件都應該要講清楚才對是嗎"},{"start":5975.444,"end":5994.25,"text":"是跟委員報告因為地方政府在訂定相關的細則或自治條例的時候他也必須要送到內政部這邊來報備那我們都會在這報備的過程當中如果有這個文字上不清楚或是定義上沒有清楚的我們都一定會要求重新定義清楚我們才能夠通過"},{"start":5994.892,"end":6014.309,"text":"好 這個真的要拜託國土署的署長你不能因為在這邊回了一個這樣的回憾我不希望說變成人家被拿去這樣錯誤的解讀那如果真的這個國土署的你們的這樣的公文裡面有被錯誤解讀的地方也希望你們要說明清楚好嗎是"},{"start":6015.249,"end":6037.054,"text":"這個我們到時候都會提供好 謝謝署長再來我們繼續請教部長因為今天審的這個都市更新條例第六十五條的修正案其實我認為是沒有爭議的因為它其實就是處理在1999年的時候時事容積管制之前的建築物那因為確實當時卡在一個非常尷尬的情況是有時候1999年當時有些房子正在蓋那它確實也申請到建造了"},{"start":6041.135,"end":6043.936,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具"},{"start":6063.606,"end":6075.917,"text":"當然我看了一下目前裡面的數字全國目前在當時這樣的情況的房子而且剛好就是大概30年也差不多都是要危老了那這樣的情況大概有8000多棟是這樣子嗎對"},{"start":6078.459,"end":6083.122,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":6100.19,"end":6123.968,"text":"對雙北比較多70%左右但是高雄市也不少高雄市有313棟是符合的六層樓以上的建築好那當然我希望說今天這個修法可以順利啦那這個其實是讓很多民眾可以受惠那我比較想知道其實是跟剛剛美會委員提到的一樣因為其實我們在危老條例通過之後發現申請危老的核定數"},{"start":6125.549,"end":6141.775,"text":"遠多於申請都更的那目前我看到2017年在危老條例通過之後其實是3700多件那其實申請都更的只有1000多件也就是說後來會選擇乾脆使用危老的其實是三倍之多"},{"start":6142.495,"end":6170.817,"text":"那我們現在遇到的問題就是說到底我們內政部有沒有一些更原則性的方向接下來你們要祭出幾大措施來加速都更的方向當然今天的條例通過是第一個好的開始那接下來呢因為其實地方上遇到都更的困難真的非常的細節非常多甚至是住戶跟住戶之間住戶跟建商之間每一個一個都要這樣去談那我們內政部有什麼方向目前還沒有看到"},{"start":6171.657,"end":6174.238,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6187.264,"end":6189.326,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6213.507,"end":6241.198,"text":"已經在他們的縣市政府裡面提出他們都更中心或是都更的相關單位來專門來做一個輔導的措施的工作那我們也很希望很鼓勵啊尤其是這個六都啊能夠朝著這方向的話呢未來我們在國土署協助他們的話會更快速好謝謝那當然我希望內政部可以扮演更積極的角色啦因為其實地方上遇到的問題比較像我剛剛講的就是住戶跟住戶之間可能沒有信任感或者是"},{"start":6241.918,"end":6270.285,"text":"有一些可能建商他覺得跟哪一個住戶談了比較好的條件或者是彼此談的條件不一樣導致在整合的過程困難重重那在這樣的情況下是不是有一些我們內政部可以協助讓這個資訊過程是更平等更公開減少彼此住戶之間的資訊落差我認為是一個可行的方向那我也希望接下來內政部可以參考然後訂出一些更明確的方向希望在接下來加速都更應該要扮演更積極的角色可以嗎可以"},{"start":6272.283,"end":6272.703,"text":"徐新穎委員"},{"start":6300.667,"end":6325.887,"text":"趙薇你好部長好本席想首先請教您這個近鄰碳排是國際的趨勢您知不知道什麼是綠色溢價綠色溢價我們尊重環境部的說法綠色溢價應該所指的比較窄化來講應該是碳權交易的部分吧您的認知是這樣對我不是那麼清楚就是從現行的這個"},{"start":6329.5,"end":6332.923,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":6359.562,"end":6359.622,"text":"民間採取鼓勵"},{"start":6378.996,"end":6386.399,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":6407.786,"end":6408.306,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6432.233,"end":6457.387,"text":"還有檢探齊頭併勁我們就不要只有理想沒有務實那這一塊我想這一塊特別在這邊我們在推動的過程當中本來就非常務實因為如果民間建築沒有辦法跟進的話其實反而對於淨林碳排的推動反而這樣子的寓意良好啊會變成是好像打水漂我想這樣反而不好但是怎麼樣處理比較好是不是讓署長跟那就不用了不用"},{"start":6457.947,"end":6461.872,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6475.109,"end":6503.378,"text":"近期央行出重拳打房我想部長您都應該知道嘛對不是央行出重拳打房這個部分可能要改成中央銀行在打草房不是打房打房的話就太嚴重了那就是央行有一些策略嘛他策略出來以後整個房價不斷的下跌那當然我們也認同要打草房這點本席也要這個立場要明確"},{"start":6504.258,"end":6507.339,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":6523.666,"end":6552.743,"text":"建商他不願意投入只要檢答就好報告委員您的觀察非常的正確我們這次提出65條之一的修正案是叫改善容積率跟原來一樣跟現在的房價其實完全沒有正相關但是我指的是現在央行他的這樣的新的政策出來之後會不會影響到未來的危老重建或是都更重建"},{"start":6553.907,"end":6555.068,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":6575.64,"end":6578.641,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6605.572,"end":6612.054,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。"},{"start":6619.949,"end":6628.955,"text":"我知道到明年的時候那個臺灣會進入超高齡但是可能是五分之一左右吧對剛剛我聽到署長講快要接近20%那只要超過到達20%就是我們所謂的會進入超高齡社會那所以現在超高齡社會本席也想請教部長我們部裡面有沒有在統計我們全國的村長里長村里長"},{"start":6648.709,"end":6656.475,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。第三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6675.911,"end":6683.155,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":6702.927,"end":6711.897,"text":"他們沒有保險這一塊我們中央是不是可以想辦法怎麼樣子立法或修法能夠讓他們有這個保障報告委員李長的部分李長已經有了"},{"start":6717.824,"end":6722.888,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6740.882,"end":6743.584,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具"},{"start":6769.56,"end":6773.083,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":6796.963,"end":6811.905,"text":"希望我們這一個部分中央能夠來修法或立法來保障他們讓這些高齡的志工他不會面臨保險公司不願意承擔保險的風險這個應該是全國很多地方大家共同的心聲"},{"start":6812.185,"end":6813.186,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":6831.058,"end":6831.298,"text":"李博弈委員"},{"start":6877.23,"end":6898.796,"text":"請部長先回座今天颱風所以先會議時間先不要開始先跟主席做一個會議詢問主席我們今天是一次會但是我們禮拜三是審消防法目前齁我剛剛跟黃捷委員我們有做一個討論我們剛剛也都在關心這個三坨而颱風的這個動態喔"},{"start":6902.039,"end":6925.837,"text":"很有可能是禮拜二或禮拜三很有可能是屏東甚至剛剛高雄點已經看這個颱風一直在轉向那部長也一直點頭可能會從高雄登陸啦如果禮拜三從高雄登陸我們這裡排這個消防法的審修第一個對於我們南部委員來講這個我們覺得壓力很大"},{"start":6928.868,"end":6948.557,"text":"第二個對於所有一線的消防人員來講我們覺得那一天可能要做一個事實的討論跟評估在這邊先做一個會議的建議那會後再跟主席做相關的討論來好謝謝主席來我們請國土署署長來請署長委員好署長"},{"start":6958.365,"end":6983.98,"text":"今天很多委員齁我是第九位槌尋委員齁今天很多委員在前面把我們國土署回覆給立法院的這三張公文齁大家都非常熟讀而且來詢問這個署長那我想熟讀詢問之外其實跟我們今天所要審的這個都市更新條例的第六十五條修正案其實我想要用很白話"},{"start":6985.144,"end":7008.794,"text":"來跟所有的民眾來做一個解釋我們今天審的條例這個都更條例第六十五條我們是在審1999年以前已經蓋好但是經過這個容積的都更條例的這個限制之後事實上它蓋好的房子是超過之後的容積的我們希望可以放寬它甚至可以獎勵它"},{"start":7010.224,"end":7029.658,"text":"讓未來這一些已經超過30年的房子未來他在做都更比較沒有問題那我想剛才大部分大多的委員也提出了相關同意的這些認可之外提案的委員跟我們呃國路署跟內政部提的方向也大大致一致這個是攸關我們"},{"start":7032.253,"end":7058.076,"text":"人民住的地方的容積攸關我們這個容積我們現在住30坪那未來我參與都更之後他會不會少於30坪我想我們是在討論這一個我們先給予正面的正面的回應那在9月20號國土署回應給立法院某個委員辦公室的公文裡面"},{"start":7059.66,"end":7082.557,"text":"這個是針對某一個商業廣場他經營不善以後他要改變他的經營模式甚至他要拿出來賣那他經過易守之後他拿出來賣之後他在跟台北市政府爭取相關的容積我到現在也看不懂了齁這個"},{"start":7085.554,"end":7112.281,"text":"根據這個都市計畫容積管制根據這個第24條、26條、27條到底是自提還是通檢還是做這些變更等等的好像只要有辦法來提升它的容積每一項都要都想要放進去那我舉我自己選區的例子這個我稍後就要請劉部長上來也跟劉部長做一個比較深的討論來部長"},{"start":7114.86,"end":7114.88,"text":"請部長"},{"start":7122.008,"end":7149.486,"text":"謝謝委員我想我長期過去跟你在高雄市政府也擔任過高雄市政府這個都市計劃的主委都市計劃委員會的主委針對高雄市的這些包含容積的這些獎勵等等你是非常嚴格的把關針對於歷史建築保存或者是有公共建設交通設施或者是有綠建築或者是有社宅或者是有都跟計劃區域"},{"start":7151.127,"end":7174.383,"text":"的這些我們才可能給予相關的這些隆基的獎勵那我在國土署這一份公文裡面其實我看不到這個商業空間有任何以上的這一些隆基獎勵的這一些基礎但是我卻看到台北市政府是給予任性城市智慧城市移居城市的這個獎勵的這些隆獎我是覺得蠻奇怪的"},{"start":7179.96,"end":7182.564,"text":"那這一個相關的包含國土署這邊給"},{"start":7186.175,"end":7212.913,"text":"立法院的這個公文說避免就單一或特定或單一對象於西部設計計畫的這些規定的項目我想這幾句話不是對行政部門講的這幾句話第一個是在騙民眾第二個應該是在跟檢察官以及法官講的說避免不等於禁止這個如果在我們上一個會期通過的反質詢以及藐視國會項目裡面"},{"start":7215.094,"end":7244.185,"text":"如果用這一個公文來質詢吳行修署長吳行修署長你可能就是藐視國會啊你知道嗎所以我在這邊也很感謝剛剛幾位委員那也給署長這邊很清楚的說明那我也說明一下為什麼請部長上來就是在你在高雄市政府任內我們所爭取的這個眷村文化保留園區裡面目前也正進行一個文化眷村都更文化眷村都更在做什麼就是把"},{"start":7245.151,"end":7262.597,"text":"高雄海軍眷村文化保留園區我們把緯六路以北目前都沒有開發的區域來跟民間來合作希望可以作為開發而開發所獲得的資金可以來保存緯六路以南"},{"start":7263.357,"end":7287.386,"text":"這一些相關的眷村文化保留園區高度的保存它現貌而且可以加以修繕這個是高雄市政府目前跟國防部以及跟文化部、文化局正在進行的這一個工作那我們也會繼續的來投入在部長以前曾經做過很多努力在這邊也跟部長做一個報告"},{"start":7289.715,"end":7314.651,"text":"委員你講的沒有錯各項容積獎勵它第一個基礎就是要有必要性跟公益性所謂的必要性跟公益性譬如說這是一個危險的地方或者這是一個環境敏感的地方然後再來就是說必要性跟公益性非常的重要譬如說高雄市很早以前比台北市更早獲得移居城市但是就我所知道高雄市的都市計畫委員會"},{"start":7314.991,"end":7319.535,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。第三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":7340.151,"end":7354.93,"text":"一定要符合必要性跟公益性公益性這三個字非常的重要如果它是商業性的話第一個大部分的都市計劃委員包括是官方或會官方或學者專家通常會同意的比例不會太高"},{"start":7355.33,"end":7377.755,"text":"今天其實也有三個直轄市的這個都發局的同仁在這裡這個也作為日後的參考那直轄市當然是可以有核定相關的這一些都市計畫但是如果沒有符合剛剛講的這一些未來還是會被受到挑戰的而且這個有釋法性的問題另外最後想要再對"},{"start":7379.395,"end":7396.074,"text":"未來可能在住宅法裡面有這些相關公辦都跟以及這個社會住宅的時候都可以納入附近的這些可能必須要安置的住戶的這些空間那我們會未來在住宅法裡面做一個修法"},{"start":7396.774,"end":7415.144,"text":"讓租屋中心未來的這些不管是社會住宅或者是未來的產業住宅包含高雄舊左宗以及中油宿舍區域等等的這些居民有安置的作用以有安置的效果我們會後之後會提出住宅法的這些討論謝謝謝謝委員對左南地區的關心謝謝好我們請吳清明委員"},{"start":7432.264,"end":7435.607,"text":"主席、議會同仁、其他內政部部長"},{"start":7442.274,"end":7454.843,"text":"吳委員你好部長我看以前很多人都在關心這個國土法是的因為在我們每年的四月三十就要上路但是現在地方也是有聲音啦我相信要還有很多的官司"},{"start":7458.565,"end":7472.64,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團"},{"start":7473.901,"end":7474.802,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":7492.16,"end":7499.507,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員李彥秀等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7514.221,"end":7516.442,"text":"三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7531.869,"end":7533.17,"text":"三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":7555.91,"end":7565.958,"text":"內政部、農業部或其他經濟部,但是地方政府也要負責一部分責任。例如我很多人說,你說的國保一、國保二或農一、農二等等這些委訓,大部分都是經濟管理政務所提出的國土計劃法做功能分區圖。"},{"start":7576.766,"end":7579.247,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7596.731,"end":7600.972,"text":"必須經過公展或討論程序。當然當中有些人特別操作,有些人很清楚委員同樣非常關心,所以我們同樣會從善如流。陳柏妤的部分是說,第一,農業部現在要提出一些修改的法令和法案,現在正在"},{"start":7615.256,"end":7620.797,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":7644.301,"end":7653.668,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團"},{"start":7668.74,"end":7687.71,"text":"其實以臺灣應付這個環境或者是氣候變遷我們有很多其實已經破碎的國土或是已經環境敏感地區我們很希望未來國土計劃裡面有一個叫做永續發展基金可以趕快進去來做一個比較好的復育計劃你如果不通過這個復育計劃就越往後沿我想這也是兩邊要做很好的拼勾跟審慎評估的部分"},{"start":7693.854,"end":7712.511,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝柏中,因為我們是國土的保育,還有我們的永續發展但是有很多,你說,在他們的前置作業,也是我們地方政府所規劃,不管國保一、國保二、國保三但是這很多民眾,他們不瞭解,不瞭解的都是,這就中央到底在怎麼樣"},{"start":7715.433,"end":7716.194,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":7730.826,"end":7732.248,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7752.349,"end":7756.511,"text":"審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":7773.756,"end":7801.234,"text":"但是因為臺灣是在地層帶上面但是它的防證系數一定要提高這一點是本省最關心的是啊,感謝委員其實這次我們也是因為電影政府有歡迎我們有重心檢討這幾年我們這個股市的這個更新的速度其實有部分受到我們過去這個法條上不夠清楚造成一些限制的部分"},{"start":7802.575,"end":7826.388,"text":"我想這次提案出來就是說希望把這個容積率實施之前,它有清照的,它已經清照了,就不用再管理說是不是,但是進展已經完成,因為畢竟每一個縣市是四個泥河沒空,泥漢沒空,那時候要執行國際形象的困擾。所以這個部分我們在這次重申如理的時候,既然地方也感覺有這個實施性的困擾的時候,這樣不如就來修法,讓這幾個大樓,"},{"start":7830.59,"end":7853.842,"text":"可以加速進行渡耕因為我們很多在尤其在雙北我們的都市更新、我們的維羅超過30年還是集中在雙北這個地方所以說這個條例通過是對雙北栽培維羅、老舊房子推動的速度會更快這點我們希望這回我們這個委員會這裡可以來代理及其"},{"start":7858.197,"end":7872.306,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。第三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬"},{"start":7887.864,"end":7916.234,"text":"阿,請部長。阿,劉委員你好。部長早安啦。早。這個這一次我們修正這個都更條例第六十五條啊,這個把實施容積管之前已經申請建造。並於實施容積管之後才興建完成的合法建築物納入這個都更獎勵容積的範圍之內。目標當然是為了提高民眾參與都更的意願。這個立法的目的本其實是贊同嘛。"},{"start":7916.434,"end":7930.87,"text":"因為目標是要推進都市更新的進度這個當然沒有問題因為當初在容積管制機制上路之前他其實是超過到後來都市計畫規範的這個人那實際上入住的人本來就比較多嘛那因為有交換的問題嘛所以你當然要"},{"start":7931.391,"end":7956.288,"text":"以入住的人為核心去規劃這個政策這個目的跟方向本期是理解不過本期也要在這個地方提醒我們的中央單位要從嚴把關因為其實近年來這個很多的學界也好或者一些公民團體其實對於這個都更的容積獎勵機制其實有提出很多的批評指教包含是不是每一個獎勵的項目都符合公益性、公平性、合理性、整體性等等這樣子的一些狀況"},{"start":7958.03,"end":7983.168,"text":"當然你今天要一一細數時間不夠專案討論就好但是要提醒我們的內政部要重演把關也就是說建商的利潤不可以無限上綱這要很小心的拿捏平衡也就是說我們既要推動都更讓他有利可圖才有辦法推動政策但是不要一個不小心就變成草房草地的幫兇讓建商的利潤無限上綱這本席要在這個地方做一個善意的提醒"},{"start":7984.168,"end":8009.112,"text":"我舉一個例子比如說容積獎勵跟他後面相關的一些政策我也希望我們的中央單位有一個好的配套比如說我舉個例子比如說所謂的開放空間這樣子的一個機制過去我們很多的社區尤其新的大樓裡面都有所謂的開放空間利益非常好也就是說我這中庭開放給大家做個花園周邊的老舊社區的居民也可以進來走一走運動一下概念是非常好的"},{"start":8009.412,"end":8009.952,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":8040.192,"end":8058.6,"text":"當初說導入開放空間目標就是所謂的增進公共利益嘛所以建商是不是可以據此取得容積獎勵可是你取得獎勵之後顯然很多建商在後續的維管裡面是沒有盡到相應的義務啦中央竟然有授予容積獎勵作為一個政策的誘因但是後面有沒有追蹤管理有沒有刻以義務"},{"start":8059.62,"end":8079.886,"text":"公權力這個介入之後有沒有帶來所謂的成本外部化的問題部長你對這個事情有了解嗎為什麼會發生這個開放空間無人聞聞的狀況要怎麼解決我了解您講的部分先講說您應該是支持都更條例六十五條方向上我支持那我們希望配套完善嘛"},{"start":8080.066,"end":8080.807,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":8098.422,"end":8099.203,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":8116.044,"end":8118.086,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":8137.108,"end":8154.447,"text":"國土署要補充嗎跟委員報告啦其實早期的這一個眷村改建或是國宅齁其實大概都普遍存在向委員所提到的這些問題為什麼因為早期在改建的時候呢它並還沒有導入公益大廈管理管理條例的規定它有制度前後的問題對它制度前後的問題所以"},{"start":8155.868,"end":8156.99,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":8171.392,"end":8193.19,"text":"或許在早期並沒有想到這一點所以他才會有這一類的問題產生我希望中央有一套針對這個問題的一套解決方案當然我們今天第一次把這個問題打開我還給他一個月的時間所以研擬一下我們怎麼樣完善這件事以前有很多過去的案例剛剛部長有講過去已經變成僵局的你要去處理很困難"},{"start":8193.911,"end":8209.402,"text":"但是除了解決陳柯之外未來可能發生的你要防範杜絕於前嘛比如說現在啊你看一下頭影片這個一樣是容積獎勵辦法這個是新北市的這個規定它其實有寫這個公共開放空間要有管理維護基金嘛"},{"start":8209.622,"end":8229.885,"text":"要專門撥一筆錢去做這件事情的管理維護而且理應專款專用臺北市也一樣應該要有所謂的維護費用但是實務上比如說包含剛剛署長講以前的眷村國宅你在完工的時候你也撥了一筆錢可是這筆錢最後去了哪裡其實整筆都進到所謂的社區的管理基金"},{"start":8230.506,"end":8251.692,"text":"那請問從社區管理的角度他會先修他自己比如說電梯啊外牆他是不是以這個為優先開放空間的優先性一定被放到最後嘛所以變成你這筆錢到最後就混到大水庫裡面沒有辦法專款專用這就是問題啊如果我們的國土署我們的內政部能夠針對這樣的問題你提出一套解決方案其實也不錯嘛對不對所以本席有幾個政策的建議第一個"},{"start":8252.625,"end":8273.755,"text":"要把管理維護的責任納入這個規約的草約啊你不是等到大樓規約之後再來修訂啊是在預售的時候就要先跟所有買這個大樓的房子的住戶先講嘛先跟他瞭解說未來你有養戶開放空間的義務讓住戶提早有觀念欸這可不可以做這其實可以做嘛而且相對來講他沒有那麼困難第二個要訂立所謂的"},{"start":8274.855,"end":8290.242,"text":"管理維護計劃嗎?這個你要求建商啊!對,我們常常給建商一大堆的容積獎勵你給他多少容積獎勵都沒有關係但是你要克與他一定的義務嘛!當他你申請開放空間的時候你就要有管理維護計劃的義務他不是只是說我繳一筆錢這事就沒事了捏我這筆錢要怎麼用?為什麼要編這筆錢?"},{"start":8292.803,"end":8310.557,"text":"詳細的計畫資訊的揭露要做嘛然後你再加上我所謂的提撥管理基金是不是未來這些大樓的管委會去承接這個東西有憑有據我的規約草約有寫了住戶知道了建商的相關的計畫也都做好了你未來再講說我要養戶我是不是有專款他就比較能夠實踐專款專用的精神"},{"start":8312.839,"end":8335.444,"text":"這是前面兩個第三個如果你願意真正有魄力點或者說你介入性要強一點的話你直接規定管理維護基金要再拆一包出來嘛也就是說有開放空間我就要有一個開放空間的管理的相關的基金嘛這一筆維護費用就進到這個專戶裡面就直接落實專款專用這也是一種方法其實這些東西都是政府可以做而且它是相對簡單的事情我希望用今天時間因為我們討論容積獎勵討論未來越來越多大樓啊"},{"start":8338.705,"end":8365.84,"text":"此早都是大家要面對的事所以這三個方向我拋磚引玉給內政部做一個參考那當然如果部長署長針對這個開放空間沒辦法處理問題有好的做法本期也非常歡迎政府願不願意扮演一定的角色呢既然他都開放給大眾使用多一點有開放空間願意配合我多給一點補貼這也是政策的誘因的示範嘛對不對所以我希望這部長針對這樣子的問題我們做一下專案的研討是不是給一點時間給我們一點回覆跟政策的方向好嗎"},{"start":8367.245,"end":8386.355,"text":"報告委員,我想您講的方向非常的正確,我們也願意從善如流,但是一個月的時間確實比較短。我的意思就是說可不可以讓我們跟相關的這些單位,要跟他們溝通,而且還有包括你所講的如果要設立專款專用的話,恐怕跟公寓大廈管理條例要能夠,所以一個月確實是太短的時間。"},{"start":8389.417,"end":8413.175,"text":"我給部長一個會期我們這個會期我們就追蹤這個事但是我不希望是會期最後我再回頭問沒有我都隨時滾動那如果部裡面有最新的消息跟有新的進展也要跟我們來報告可以嗎這樣我很有誠意嘛我們希望在這個題目上看到成果可以嗎好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝牛許廷委員謝謝接下來我們請張志倫委員"},{"start":8421.75,"end":8425.285,"text":"主席好各位委員各位官員大家早安所以有請呃劉部長謝謝請部長"},{"start":8433.116,"end":8458.402,"text":"張委員好部長好辛苦了這個會期第一次質詢知道你剛剛非常辛苦經過新店那邊看到你有一個請大家捐血的這個活動非常的好謝謝部長今天一開始我們要討論的是有關於內政部還有行政院函請申請這個都市更新條例第六十五條的修正案本席剛剛已經聽到很多的委員來陳述本席也非常支持針對這些老宅"},{"start":8459.162,"end":8486.637,"text":"要來針對一些都市計劃前跟都市計劃後不同容積率的部分來做一個探討那我本席是非常的支持不過要跟部長報告一件事情最近我的辦公室被很多民眾打電話來很擔心一件事情我不知道部長知不知道一件事情在9月26號賴總統有主持一個全社會防衛任性委員會"},{"start":8487.938,"end":8505.624,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條條文修正草案：一、審查委員王鴻薇"},{"start":8517.708,"end":8535.644,"text":"那如果是緊急命令的時候第一波其實有20萬的這個後備軍人其實可以上戰場所以是不是請部長稍微解釋一下這40萬這個您在這個會議上跟這個記者會有提到說這個你認為這個怎麼樣來安民心說這40萬的民兵民眾所擔心的"},{"start":8541.229,"end":8543.87,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":8559.737,"end":8585.933,"text":"但是根據我們的民防法、災救法還有我們的替代役的管理條例這三個是我們重要的法源基礎在民防法裡面最重要的一個功能就是維持社會穩定維持社會秩序維持民生運作像譬如說我們如果碰到大規模的震災或是大規模的天災的時候我們怎麼樣維持整個政府可以功能正常的運作其實就是需要用到大量的民力那這個部分這個部分所對不起"},{"start":8587.254,"end":8598.059,"text":"因為我要跟你打斷一下,因為我之前手上剛好收到一個當時你們委員會關於國安局開會的一個內容他參考其他國家的做法,我才剛拿到,他參考的國家是烏克蘭"},{"start":8599.605,"end":8625.339,"text":"那我想要請問一下部長齁當時你有沒有參加這個國安單位所開的會議對不起我沒有參加國安單位的會議但是我在報告就是說內政部現在主責的單位第一個它依法有據就是像我剛剛跟你講了有三個部分就是三個法律就是災救法然後民防法跟替代役管理條例然後你所說的可是我所說的可是民利的部分第一個我們維持政府的正常運作跟交通安全或是其他的安全的話第一個我們就用到警跟消"},{"start":8625.939,"end":8631.542,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8653.012,"end":8668.645,"text":"其實你所說的我需要再做一下修正應該不是說做成軍事訓練應該是說第一個我們的警察本來就有保一、保二、保三、保四、保五、保六他們原來所保安的對象是本來就是在我們的法律上面規範的"},{"start":8669.586,"end":8695.803,"text":"對,那我記得就我得知基層的警員反彈聲音很大那現在因為基層已經反彈很重了現在我們所有當時的議警、議校或是民防他們當時都是處於一個熱心服務的狀態才需要來協助而且他們平常的作業都已經非常的忙碌所以我想請問部長你覺得賴清德總統他所謂的這個40萬不管是民兵也好這些民力的部分你覺得有機會成功嗎?"},{"start":8696.603,"end":8707.899,"text":"我跟委員報告一下您現在所說的好像是一切都從零開始但是事實上三個法律所授權的部分包括民防的訓練本來就會有像長訓或幹部訓練這個也本來就在訓練當中"},{"start":8712.085,"end":8713.326,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":8740.009,"end":8755.216,"text":"易景易消開始做好的訓練再加上民間團體的支援我想這就是我們所謂的可視的民利這個民利跟民兵差得非常遠而且我們所依賴的對象不是所謂的烏克蘭我想要跟委員報告會見有太多這樣的誤解"},{"start":8757.179,"end":8758.941,"text":"報告委員 我們並沒有編預算 我們現在只有訓練的預算"},{"start":8775.418,"end":8777.12,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":8796.921,"end":8797.482,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":8823.542,"end":8834.312,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具、「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具、「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具、「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案。案。"},{"start":8847.803,"end":8865.833,"text":"現在憲制連學校退役了以後也要來做我們民防軍事的相關的訓練我要想要請教我想要跟部長拜託就是說是不是我內政部我們在上個會期我們並肩作戰做了很多打詐釋法的修正其實內政部應該多花一些預算在打詐"},{"start":8866.713,"end":8894.891,"text":"或是一些警員、消防員的預算等等這些預算應該多具編列而不是因為賴總統他的一個人他自己的想法而讓內政部要這樣疲於奔命我希望未來後續因為我現在民眾還有非常多的疑惑對這件事情所以希望說部長我知道這個會期你還沒有來大家還沒有見面討論過也希望說這個會期大家一起見面來討論把這件事情讓全民來了解警政署跟消防署的預算也請張委員多多支持"},{"start":8894.991,"end":8910.042,"text":"一定支持他們在各莊或是其他的專業訓練方面確實是需要委員的支持好 謝謝部長謝謝張志倫委員質詢接下來我們請李坤成委員質詢提醒一下非本會委員發言時間5分鐘沒有延長 謝謝好 謝謝主席我們請劉部長"},{"start":8925.957,"end":8943.468,"text":"李委員您好部長好辛苦了先請教一下部長現在原本是要審查總預算但是因為總預算現在被擋住了那現在也沒有什麼總預算可以審查先請教一下部長如果明年度的總預算沒辦法通過的話內政部有哪些新的計畫會被擋住沒辦法執行"},{"start":8945.829,"end":8953.351,"text":"報告李委員我們現在最大的困擾應該就是行政院他們要撥補給我們的住宅基金裡面對於各地的租金補助的部分原先我們申請這個部分是200億那如果200億沒有辦法在總預算裡面討論的話我們住宅基金未來要依註給其他縣市政府做租金的補助或是包租代管"},{"start":8971.477,"end":8971.937,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":8988.248,"end":9005.217,"text":"租宅補貼租金的補貼對那另外一個部分大概就是給縣市地方政府的一個新興計劃尤其是我想委員在那個議員的時候非常的清楚第一個生活圈道路還有就是我們現在為了要改善這個行人道路的這個部分"},{"start":9005.737,"end":9009.978,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9033.076,"end":9057.041,"text":"你現在講的是前瞻基礎建設計畫可是我們還有其他的計畫兩個是分開來的那現在除了你講那些之外那還有一個就是說明年的這個春節本來我們要給這個村里長1.5個月的這個年終慰問金那現在如果預算卡住了明年的1月因為明年1月就過年了嘛那這個1.5個月的這個年終慰問金發得出來嗎"},{"start":9059.942,"end":9066.784,"text":"是有點卡卡的,但是我們會盡量把它那個可以趕快通過。黨主任你怎麼去發咧?這是有點困難,但是我們有詢問過我們的會計總處跟主計單位,他們會想辦法讓它可以發放。但是確實是比較不容易,就是有點卡卡的。有些相關的施行細則呢,我們會再跟主計總處來申請,希望它可以趕快可以撥補。"},{"start":9083.848,"end":9084.248,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":9101.434,"end":9115.677,"text":"新增七條之一村里長事務補助費補助條例有村里長任滿六屆年滿65歲以上給予慰問金及表揚額度及辦法由內政部訂定請問部長現在有關於資深里長年滿65歲還有任滿六屆表揚的辦法跟金額有確定嗎?"},{"start":9123.439,"end":9123.659,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":9140.913,"end":9156.116,"text":"希望能夠趕快通過,因為地方建議的金額多數為30萬元以下那同時也可能要請地方政府也能夠編列相關的預算30萬,大概30萬左右是不是?以下我是建議這筆預算還是由中央來出啦因為其實因為現在我沒錢,我現在這樣說我就假空開啊當初我們這1.5個月的慰問金也是本來要縣市政法出嘛"},{"start":9167.659,"end":9172.842,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":9191.924,"end":9193.686,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":9206.838,"end":9229.541,"text":"希望能夠明年1月1號就施行所以現在時間也很趕啊是很趕啊就是我們已經邀集了要收集這些資料了但是如果現在是卡到這個部分的話會有困擾然後您特別提到說如果地方財政有困難的話呢是建議要負擔這個未落金的額度但是這個額度到底多少現在還要再考量"},{"start":9230.101,"end":9230.241,"text":"王鴻薇委員"},{"start":9261.141,"end":9265.989,"text":"謝謝主席,我請部長還有我們國土署的吳署長"},{"start":9270.894,"end":9289.041,"text":"委員你好部長好 署長好剛才我看部長跟李昆城委員一搭一唱就是針對我們現在退回總預算的部分部長也擔任過很久的立法委員請問一下現在退回總預算請問一下我們有沒有刪除預算現在是退回程序委員會而不是退回行政院所以不一樣所以有沒有刪除"},{"start":9301.431,"end":9326.711,"text":"既然沒有討論,不可能做任何的其他的決議。沒錯,所以沒有刪除。而且呢,我們退回是希望針對這個原名補償條例的法定預算的部分。因為立法院不能做增加預算的決議嘛。我想部長當委員那麼久應該非常清楚。然後我覺得李昆城委員也算是他腦筋是清楚的。他特別問了部長說哪些新計劃會受到影響。"},{"start":9331.235,"end":9348.669,"text":"部長也應該非常清楚即使預算沒有通過凡是延續性的預算它仍然可以照這個年度明年度可以照上一個年度來執行部長不會連這件事情都搞不清楚吧謝謝委員指教"},{"start":9350.004,"end":9374.577,"text":"所以我講的沒有錯沒有 我想跟委員報告一下如果要延續的部分的話是人事費跟延續的計劃跟業務費對 所以所有延續性的而非新興的計劃實際上不受任何的如果有增加預算規模的話也是必須要經過大院同意才可以有增加的部分所以只要是延續性的其實是不受影響我想請署長也一起來"},{"start":9378.319,"end":9378.559,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9395.287,"end":9402.89,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":9423.78,"end":9432.387,"text":"我們擔心的是違老的部分恐怕它就越來越沒有用因所以我要請問部長還有請教這個署長針對有關違老的部分我記得我在上個會期也針對這個問題有詢問過我們違老條例的這個落日條款還有這個容積獎勵的這個它越來越低我們有沒有一些研議跟補正檢討的一個措施"},{"start":9450.184,"end":9463.058,"text":"感謝委員大概分兩個部分因為之前所謂的10成獎勵其實它相對來講比較沒有要付出其他的這樣的一個公益措施所以當時的10成獎勵就一直討論不應該再延長"},{"start":9465.2,"end":9486.492,"text":"但是我們相對是鼓勵危老的規模要擴大所以是用規模獎勵來代替逐年來代替這個10成獎勵這是第一個啦當然第二個就是說危老其實他當時設定了10年的這個條款就是都落日但是其實外界的反應都很我說明一下因為落日這件事情呢"},{"start":9487.473,"end":9487.813,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":9513.354,"end":9541.668,"text":"那我請問一下部長剛才也有很多的委員在關心那麼你說宮廟呢未來不會放彈藥軍火那請問一下我們在這個這次的全民防衛任性這個委員會找了非常多的這個宗教團體包含教會包含中廟那請問一下未來我們宗教組織他們的功能是什麼不放軍火要放什麼"},{"start":9542.949,"end":9553.478,"text":"報告委員我想您還是誤解了齁在內政部所主管的部分就是在災害救護這是我們目前最大的功能跟最大的任務那災害救護的部分呢後續一定會有收容安置跟撤離這幾項過去包括我們的921大地震等等這些後續的很多災民的部分這個可是原來宗教都在做啦"},{"start":9563.948,"end":9565.289,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9586.747,"end":9591.028,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9609.054,"end":9615.624,"text":"我不清楚委員所指的是什麼在我們的任務裡面就是維持我們的收容安置跟撤離的功德他必須要能夠他如果是開放空間的話所用的其他的法源基礎並不在內政部的管轄範圍內"},{"start":9624.938,"end":9625.298,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":9644.423,"end":9648.689,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9664.087,"end":9664.267,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9693.012,"end":9693.052,"text":"黃建豪議員"},{"start":9710.798,"end":9734.523,"text":"黃源你好部長好部長好今天主要大家討論我們這個都更條65條的修正草的修正案那當然本席看了這個相關條文當然非常非常的支持因為我想這對於921那段尷尬的時間新建的房子讓他們參與都市更新他是正面有鼓勵的這個方向但是本席還是要問一下這個問題就是說這個都市更新則這個獎勵容積的部分因為後續"},{"start":9735.663,"end":9737.304,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":9753.618,"end":9761.146,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9777.162,"end":9800.928,"text":"那所以到全責主管機關是私人還是公用那當然最核心問題還是簽上錢的問題誰來管理誰來保養這個部長您怎麼看委員您剛已經提到了這個公共空間裡面的產權是屬於私人的話就是表示是屬於私人的是屬於社區的但是怎麼樣讓它維持它是個公共空間開放的部分確實在管理上面的會出現很多的挑戰跟困境我想您長久服務在"},{"start":9802.728,"end":9806.051,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":9829.89,"end":9830.731,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":9846.625,"end":9874.237,"text":"過去的地方政府都比較熟悉一個做法就把他納到這個公益大廈的管理維護基金但是就會像他所擔憂的他可能在使用的順序上對於管委會來講他並不是優先項目所以這個部分需不需要來做這個專款專用的一個規定這個部分我們就會找地方政府在討論部長部長我的建議是這樣因為這個都更的這個都更條例他的榮獎出來他的機制講白了這件事情出來之後最大的獲利者不一定是市民"},{"start":9874.757,"end":9897.294,"text":"最大會的可能是協助都更的這個建商啊所以我想在未來相關條例裡面應該讓建商有他的責任跟義務他現在的現行法律當然對於公共大會管理條例他第一個階段管理會成立前他要撥款到這個管理會裡面去那未來呢未來的部分我建議是說這個都更獎勵建商從這邊獲得的利潤應該要分配到所謂的基金裡面"},{"start":9898.155,"end":9912.35,"text":"讓他專款專用到後續的維護管理讓這個容積獎勵他能夠真正的發揮所謂的公平性跟公義性不要說我反正蓋完賣給你之後全面做管理會的事情那管理會跟周邊社區如果不愉快的話那也跟建商沒關係但問題是建商你把錢賺走了"},{"start":9913.191,"end":9940.777,"text":"他今天他能夠獲得容積獎勵他能夠蓋更多的房子他能夠把容積蓋得更高賺更多錢但結果他後續沒有踏實期所以我想這個從公平原則來講的話是不是可以讓相關這個精神放進這個所謂的專款專要的這個條款裡面甚至放進公益大廈管理條例裡面部長這個我們會來找地方政府再來討論就希望很明確的要求他們把它訂到相關的規定裡面去處理當然如果有需要在公益大廈管理條例裡面去落實的話這個我們也會來處理"},{"start":9942.637,"end":9943.218,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":9949.193,"end":9973.179,"text":"現在要做都市更新的地方都是所謂的老舊市區嘛原則上都這樣吧老舊市區最面臨最現實的停車場停車位不足現有的這些建築物裡面所以過去你們是把它放在這個建築規則裡面讓地方政府自己去訂定相關的容積獎勵訂定相關的這個規範但是如果今天65條通過之後我想很多的老舊建物他們也能夠納入這個"},{"start":9974.419,"end":9975.059,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":9989.787,"end":10008.088,"text":"跟委員報告啦,因為現行的建管的規定,各縣大概都差不多,尤其會透過交評的部分來做處理,所以通常它是至少都一戶一車位這樣的方式來訂立,有的甚至會訂的更高,那這些其實都已經有在落實當中啦。"},{"start":10008.408,"end":10009.269,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":10024.164,"end":10025.646,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":10042.506,"end":10043.566,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":10059.673,"end":10082.713,"text":"通常這個就是我們在會找地方政府討論因為有一些的確他會變成說未來是作為獎勵也就是說我獎勵你蓋更多的停車位去出租或什麼那這個未來這個部分地方政府就要視他們在地的情形看他是不是要納到都更的獎勵項目或是說他會額外的獎勵或是額外的要求這個部分我們會好我們時間到了我們在後續再跟你討論謝謝部長謝謝署長主席謝謝"},{"start":10088.649,"end":10099.796,"text":"好 我們請齊小新委員謝謝主席 我們也一樣請部長好 請部長"},{"start":10108.175,"end":10136.286,"text":"修緣你好部長好那我想這一次的都市更新條例第六十五條修正草案那我想我們都是很支持的尤其對於我們雙北來說非常的重要因為佔了佔比快70個百分點都是有關的那我們在這個台北市來說30年的老屋也非常的多那所以呢加速危老是一個共識不過剛才王鴻薇委員也有提到的我們在這個整個危老的條例當中他是按照時程去遞減"},{"start":10137.586,"end":10139.207,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":10154.315,"end":10154.835,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":10175.268,"end":10176.429,"text":"委員您在預測的狀況有可能會發生但是目前我們的狀況"},{"start":10202.832,"end":10228.357,"text":"為什麼我們都更條例修正那麼多次就是希望能夠鼓勵越多現存的危老都更趕快進行危老跟都更的成全我懂我們都支持那我希望你能夠把這個部分也考量進去之後來做配套措施那另外就是在921的時候啊不少這個因為不是921對不起林肯大郡的時候我們也因為林肯大郡的關係國土署在山坡地的部分啊那做了很多的限制"},{"start":10228.677,"end":10233.84,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。」案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案。」案"},{"start":10259.577,"end":10278.728,"text":"感謝委員的詢問,的確在過去在新北,其實大概這類的案子,還有部分的台北市,都有這類的案子。其實過去的區域計畫裡面是允許地方政府,你自己再重新檢討,那這些過去的老餅見的土地,但是我想因為這幾年還是有一些山坡地自災的議題,"},{"start":10279.728,"end":10281.269,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10302.295,"end":10316.238,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團"},{"start":10329.747,"end":10353.702,"text":"是的謝謝委員所以當時提到所謂的彈藥放宮廟您認為這是一個假消息是一個認知作戰是嗎對在我上任之後到目前為止我並沒有聽到這樣子的說法所以我認為這是一個認知作戰那您有去教學上任之前的時候就是說因為不是從你開始嗎內政部它是一個延續下來的嘛那請問一下就是說你"},{"start":10354.122,"end":10367.152,"text":"整個內政部的過程內政部的上上下下的銜接都是假消息都是認知作戰嗎?歷任的內政部長從來沒有提到說宮廟需要放軍來我們下一張看一下這個是陸軍當然啦內政部可能你們不知道"},{"start":10371.095,"end":10391.176,"text":"但是陸軍第四區支援指揮部彈藥左營彈藥分庫發函在112年11月30號的時候關於彈藥的部分你可以看他正本發給誰某某股份有限公司某某府某某宮所以宮廟跟社區中心還有活動中心在"},{"start":10392.477,"end":10413.13,"text":"高雄在國防部的政策當然不是你內政部我知道但是當時就已經有所謂的彈藥存在宮廟裏面彈藥存在宮廟裏面不會嗎?沒有沒有你看那你自己看上面的東海嘛這寫的是支援協定書我想如果用英文來講應該就是MOU嘛他寫的是什麼?他寫的MOU嘛MOU可簽可不簽"},{"start":10414.651,"end":10429.204,"text":"他說規劃於各作戰區選定彈藥的屯點縮減戰時彈藥的運補時序滿足彈藥的補充能量在第一點他發函的這個希望能夠協定書的部分包含宮廟沒錯吧"},{"start":10431.994,"end":10432.635,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":10451.169,"end":10468.243,"text":"像這樣子所謂陸軍指揮部他們在這裡分副長陸軍的陸軍兵工校他們發了這樣子的公文我想內政部也必須要知道必須要了解如果你們認為不妥適的話也必須要橫向的向國防部溝通請問部長能夠做得到嗎好謝謝委員的提點為了有這樣狀況的話我們會跟國防部來溝通"},{"start":10473.848,"end":10492.802,"text":"所以我要再一次強調喔這並不是一個假消息也不是一個認知作戰只是可能不是在你內政部發生你不能因為不是在你內政部發生就說這都是假消息我今天直接提供公文給你看確實曾經有人也就是國防部想要把宮廟作為彈藥的儲存點有這樣的公文是存在的是我們政府發放的"},{"start":10497.785,"end":10519.312,"text":"所以我希望未來部長您不要再說這是假消息跟認知作戰了不在內政部不等於不存在在我們的國家政府體系好謝謝好謝謝好楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在游浩委員游浩委員游浩委員不在好請盧志強委員有請部長請部長"},{"start":10537.027,"end":10561.982,"text":"羅源你好部長好那本次修正都市更新條例第六十五條放寬原容積認定標準讓過去在實施容積管制前已經申請建造還沒有完工合法的建物未來如果要都更也能夠則由以原容積來計算高於現行最高1.5倍的容積獎勵那修法後"},{"start":10562.682,"end":10570.317,"text":"全台將有8200棟6層以上的老建屋受惠,對不對是的,在我們的報告裡面確實有提到總計是8216棟"},{"start":10573.188,"end":10593.263,"text":"那我非常認同這次修法放寬圓融基的認定標準那所以增加老舊建物來參與都更改建的誘因那全台其實住宅的老化情況愈來愈嚴峻我相信部長也有掌握到嘛對不對那屋齡超過50年的有多少戶呢"},{"start":10594.451,"end":10615.083,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第"},{"start":10623.752,"end":10647.755,"text":"部長可不可以幫我算一下大概多少年才可以完成重建我幫你算一下300到400年了那這個過程當中還有不計其數的污塞又變老所以因此都更的速度幾乎是趕不上房屋變老的速度那其實像在我的選區大安區其實為什麼居民也都非常關心都更的問題"},{"start":10648.456,"end":10650.137,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10669.732,"end":10696.832,"text":"議員多多指教事實上根據地震中心的研究如果說一旦北台灣發生6.3以上的地震光台北地區就可能有4000棟房屋倒塌如果是921等級的大地震會有3.5萬棟的房舍倒塌所以這個真的是覺得實在是不能夠輕忽的一件事情也希望我們部長我們的行政機關能夠多多的努力"},{"start":10697.913,"end":10698.914,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":10717.175,"end":10741.568,"text":"報告委員賴總統他所提到的國家希望工程他是寫百萬租家庭服務住的計畫不是百萬設宅這個跟那個委員再做一下我跟那個部長說你們的當然現在的你們的標準跟以前這個蔡英文總統標準就顯然不一樣了如果要改變我也接受以前蔡英文總統承諾是多少萬戶社會住宅最先開始的時候"},{"start":10742.593,"end":10769.405,"text":"二十萬戶,就後來是把這個包租貸款、租金補貼都開始慢慢加進去。本來就是20萬戶的直接興建社會住宅,那到年底之前大概是12萬戶,那後來有再進行包租貸款。你這個所謂的百萬計劃,那事實上裡面最大的成分是哪一塊?你現在說如果人數比較多的話,應該就是租金補貼的部分。租金補貼,我現在跟您說,"},{"start":10770.606,"end":10770.986,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":10785.758,"end":10790.899,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":10809.224,"end":10814.525,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10832.537,"end":10860.582,"text":"二零三一年底啦才能夠完工十萬戶啦那賴清德總統的那個社會住宅的目標不算包住貸款不算租金補貼是多少是他就是十二再加十三二十五嘛對結果他任內預計完工七萬戶平均每年不到一萬戶照這種目標我直接跟你說啦你要達成二十五萬戶社會社會住宅目標一年一萬戶請問你知道賴清德要做幾年總統"},{"start":10863.646,"end":10870.329,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":10893.658,"end":10920.354,"text":"你在整個所謂的那個居住正義的那個資源配置上你應該看到新聞了嘛最大佔比就是租金補貼嘛發錢我當然知道大家開心也容易啦社會住宅確實是一件比較難的工作可是當你的絕大資源幾百億都是花在租金補貼的時候你社會住宅的資源就被排擠嘛就減縮嘛我希望能夠把社會住宅的這件事情還是把它當作一個優先政策啦以上謝謝"},{"start":10926.038,"end":10927.659,"text":"好我們請張啟凱委員請部長委員你好"},{"start":10956.068,"end":10976.835,"text":"二十六號啊,賴總統開了這個全社會防衛任性的委員會他說要培訓40萬可視的民力目標之一就是必要的時候要支援軍事行動但是現在主要的目標是維持社會穩定跟民生運作"},{"start":10978.041,"end":10998.047,"text":"按照民防法的第一個要務是維持政府的功能跟社會穩定是我們民防法的最大的功能有備而來喔來啦我先問你啦故意想跟你講的到底有一樣嗎故意想說一旦情勢如果嚴峻的時候當然要去支援軍事作戰嘛是的在民防法裡面有這樣子的規範我要跟委員報告一下"},{"start":10999.287,"end":11015.158,"text":"顧立雄他的鎖本是因為全民防衛動員法那我的鎖本呢是在於災害救治法以及民防法還有替代役的管理條例我這三個法律呢都是我們在執行的過程當中我現在問你的是說你們兩個講的東西有一樣嗎?一體的兩面那這樣會不會變成替代役啦、議銷啦、議警銷啦民間團體都要上戰場?還會不會?"},{"start":11028.632,"end":11051.255,"text":"要看習近平的態度嗎?不是,我想你非常清楚你現在所知道的民防法的部分包括民防人力的訓練或者我們新增叫做民間的防災式的訓練或者是設施的訓練或者是義難的訓練現在都在訓練而且長久以來因為張委員也服貨兵役嘛"},{"start":11052.875,"end":11068.941,"text":"你現在已經可能過了啦,我是說原來你也是屬於後備軍人,可能是後備軍人,所以現在都在訓練,但是因應大規模的天災,譬如說日本他有南海海潮,他們可以一下子就可以把整個的我現在問你的同感,你的意思是進入什麼狀況下會全部都要上戰場?"},{"start":11076.263,"end":11077.263,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":11095.691,"end":11096.192,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":11115.075,"end":11115.856,"text":"民眾看起來不贊成這個政策"},{"start":11130.851,"end":11131.172,"text":"報告委員我們前兩天才報告"},{"start":11147.355,"end":11171.239,"text":"所以現在要怎麼宣傳我還是跟大家講一下因為我看到在大規模的天災的時候所有的人都投入也不分黨派不分老少所以這個是臺灣最重要的我們的一個保全國力的重要的人的規模那既然是這樣的話我們讓他更專業化可以知道說如果發生狀況的時候你要去哪個地方可以做更好的垂直跟很好的聯繫我想這是非常的好的我看下一張"},{"start":11176.633,"end":11197.229,"text":"總統講完之後,不想參加的有超過七成,這是台灣的民意嘛。我還要向委員報告,這樣子的民調資料呢,我是覺得太衝突。為什麼呢?因為第一個,它沒有經過好好的完整的溝通。就好像說我們在總統公佈這樣子的一個全社會防衛任性之後,然後媒體馬上就有不同的聲音。"},{"start":11199.711,"end":11201.513,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":11225.725,"end":11234.793,"text":"好了來來我們看一下再下一張下一張一百一十二年度我去看這個你們的資料吼御用的警察人士的統計吼七千五百人"},{"start":11236.175,"end":11261.544,"text":"年齡高達50歲以上然後如果是義勇這個消防人員47到48這個投入到戰場去會不會年紀偏大報告委員我還是一再強調沒有所謂的投入戰場現在義勇警察就是要協助警察在維持社會治安所以他在訓練的時候呢怎麼樣加強治安上面應該有的技巧譬如說現在技巧跟30年前警察不一樣嗎來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":11265.945,"end":11268.088,"text":"外圍圈這個任務,40萬的這個名利是要警戒嗎?你要給他什麼裝備?就是這40萬的這個名利"},{"start":11281.701,"end":11297.078,"text":"你準備做什麼訓練裝備是什麼報告委員這個就不能夠一體試用第一個有的是正規的警察跟消防有的是義消跟消防有的是民防有的甚至是民間團體"},{"start":11298.319,"end":11299.58,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":11319.775,"end":11334.661,"text":"有嘛齁?你剛才講那些...你剛才不是說每一個都不一樣?那你怎麼訓練?他有功能上面的分組第一個,我們有提到...那你能不能依照你所謂的功能的分組你給他什麼裝備、什麼訓練?好,報告委員我們有民防訓練...我們有民防訓練、防災室訓練然後還有那個義男的訓練跟備役義男的訓練在法令以外你剛才講的非常完備嘛,對不對?我們希望是大家能夠團結一致..."},{"start":11346.585,"end":11369.378,"text":"就說一般民眾聽到要有40萬的名利他們他們要想要很明確不是要有40萬的名利現在就有40萬他會不會被納到裡面去然後他要被做什麼樣的訓練嘛我的要求很簡單等於你剛才說的嘛你都有規定了嘛那你就是哪些人可能在哪一個我們有些官方有規定但是有些民間團體是要去拜託對 要去拜託好啦 你要不要一個禮拜你看要怎麼訓練裝備什麼給我啦好不好 可以嗎好 好 謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":11378.019,"end":11393.186,"text":"高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、高靖樹委員、"},{"start":11423.771,"end":11449.707,"text":"好,謝謝張宏祿召委先請劉四方部長休息一下最後再找你找這個董次長跟那個吳新修吳署長好,請署長最後我再請部長今天是排都更條例都更條例第六十五條跟這相關的部分請教一下這個次長就是說"},{"start":11452.261,"end":11453.162,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":11472.742,"end":11476.183,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11496.694,"end":11499.737,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11513.97,"end":11520.275,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11538.035,"end":11559.052,"text":"報告因為高雄市現在就已經達標了當然我們還會再把他推高所以各縣市政府他的執行能力有差別嘛對不對那你執行力越差的你可能中央要負上更多的責任用中央土地有中央的資源來去不一定在他沒去你總是沒辦法去完成你的目標"},{"start":11559.753,"end":11562.515,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。"},{"start":11575.686,"end":11602.658,"text":"指標當然是那個租金補貼是一個指標嘛那總是當期要有一個回安身利民的所在嘛對跟委員報告租金補貼跟包租貸款大概其實有不同的策略那租金補貼最主要其實是因為我們希望讓18歲到35歲的年輕人他們在整個人生還在發展的過程裡面他透過我們租金補貼降低他在住宅上面的負擔那我們目前的統計他可以降低到44%那跟新青男會不會是衝突啊"},{"start":11602.998,"end":11612.834,"text":"沒有新清安的部分是另外他如果要貸款買房的時候是另外一件事情我們是希望說小孩子在發展的過程裡面他有些移動的狀況還是用清安比較好"},{"start":11613.763,"end":11624.546,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11641.643,"end":11664.893,"text":"區域有別啦南北也有別都會區跟非都會區都有別啦台北市你就算是用租金補貼還是有一點不夠對不對那在那個可能南部可能有高啊那你在這個社宅的部分台北市也是這個相對經濟比較高所以都沒辦法總控不同的狀況要因地制宜我們會有多元的方式來協助"},{"start":11667.389,"end":11668.73,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":11683.328,"end":11704.421,"text":"我們現在有跟住入中心在全力加速,因為我們大概一年可以執行一萬五到兩萬戶的發包的量能。住入中心董事長也是花市長嘛,他也應該對這部分很熟悉啊。是,這個我們會卯足全勁。那都更的部分呢?都更跟危老的部分呢?你們現在有沒有更好的方法?會有更有效率的做法?"},{"start":11705.161,"end":11726.742,"text":"根文報告當然今天來修的就是促進在之前921之前的這些老舊的建築物那能夠在適用原種的部分把它放寬那當然在危老的部分我們現在也就在檢討危老的條例因為大家希望危老能夠繼續那這部分我們也有待做延續那當然都更獎勵的部分我們現在也會再結合一些"},{"start":11727.382,"end":11733.608,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11752.642,"end":11757.024,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":11782.977,"end":11785.259,"text":"主席,麻煩先請劉世芳部長請部長"},{"start":11807.305,"end":11830.829,"text":"國務委員您好部長我想國人都很關心我們也希望是說了解讓全民能夠安心賴總統說要全社會防護任性委員會那其中目標是充實40萬名具有防衛能力的民力是不是那我想請教剛剛也有委員在那邊詢問嘛民力跟民兵到底有什麼差別"},{"start":11831.55,"end":11856.424,"text":"第一個我不了解民兵的定義但是我了解民力的定義跟委員報告一下民力的部分大概是目前我們依據民防法、消防法、災害防救法跟替代役管理條例裡面所折算出來的所以民防法現在有我們所謂的這個民防相關人員嗎是的那我們現在全國的民防人員差不多有多少人我先看一下好了"},{"start":11863.237,"end":11864.798,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11886.01,"end":11895.351,"text":"本席的了解是不是民防法規定相關,不管是你有分幾個隊,包括民防總隊9.7萬人、民防團4.7萬人、防護團23.4萬人等等。所以民防的人數以民防人力動員計畫來統計,差不多就是40萬人上下。"},{"start":11911.51,"end":11915.632,"text":"三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":11930.475,"end":11931.415,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":11953.86,"end":11971.219,"text":"外界大家在好奇就是說過去其實我們就有民防法了嘛民防也在做民防訓練也有相關的民防的這個分隊、中隊的訓練嘛我們可能以前擔任過民意代表也都會參與民防相關的工作嘛那現在其實最主要在提出來這部分是要多增加五萬名"},{"start":11971.92,"end":11977.825,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11994.966,"end":12019.051,"text":"所以未來我們會有統稱嗎?還是說他還是一樣就像現在因為民防法下面就是民防人員你說用消防法的話下面可能就是一擊一消對不對?所以他還是各自原本就有的本期好奇的地方其實兩個部分啦一個是說到底我們現在就提出來賴總統提出來這部分會不會跟我們過去已經有法源依據的一消也好或是民防人員也好會有跌床駕屋的問題"},{"start":12020.051,"end":12021.471,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":12043.556,"end":12053.823,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團"},{"start":12072.817,"end":12073.798,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":12092.197,"end":12095.939,"text":"報告委員現在還沒有進入114年度現在我們在做替代役的藝男訓練上我們是申請行政院二倍金來幫忙行政院願意來協助我們因為我們目前"},{"start":12107.105,"end":12131.871,"text":"做這個液難或是替代液難的這個基礎訓練的部分包括有急救訓練、自衛防護還有專業訓練包括避難設施或者是在職訓練等等這些它的量能不夠所以剛剛有委員也提到第一個我們現在使用的一個地方大概就是在中州就已經退場的這個一個中州的這個技術學院願意提供這樣子的一個場地給我們做替代液的訓練"},{"start":12132.711,"end":12157.592,"text":"或者是其他的這個比較加強的一個防衛訓練的部分那所以現在大部分都是用在訓練的量能上面所以未來替代役其實你剛剛還是沒有回答本學問題不過沒關係未來替代役的部分就您的安排或是規劃認為是他們要在役滿退役之前會有拿到相關的證照是的尤其是EMT-1所以幾個證照他會變成是他退役的一個標準嗎"},{"start":12158.953,"end":12182.18,"text":"如果說他在服役期間他但是他沒有辦法拿到不管是說他的本職學能等等對這個部長在給他的工作量就沒有辦法那麼專業是本席提出來就是可能會未來很多人的面臨到問題以及想要了解政府的態度就你剛有提到替代役你要延長並且你要提出相關的訓練也到中州相關的一個訓練設備那這樣子會不會變成是一個標準"},{"start":12184.901,"end":12185.341,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":12211.261,"end":12221.47,"text":"謝謝,我們感謝侯孟楷委員。我們現在署清前、署清前、署清前不在。我們現在張召偉執行。我先請部長跟署長。來,請補定跟署長。"},{"start":12241.901,"end":12245.183,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":12266.092,"end":12272.039,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12278.106,"end":12285.828,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨簽署"},{"start":12304.153,"end":12304.753,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":12334.493,"end":12335.994,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":12349.98,"end":12353.664,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12370.163,"end":12370.584,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":12388.163,"end":12388.904,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":12409.475,"end":12434.511,"text":"違建不算吧對違建不算違建不算吧對這個要說清楚是這個都要說清楚那另外今天有很多人很多的委員在講危老的事情是在講危老的事情那當然也知道啦那個這個要不要延長要不要什麼的我覺得啦"},{"start":12435.933,"end":12464.216,"text":"應該都是你們本於你們的這個職權你們的專業去處理不過這個署長剛也有很多委員說唉唷到時候房子太小間或什麼的可是我覺得居住權跟生存權這我相信我也跟您說過很多次了以如果以我們現在未來要拿到獎勵的要1600平方公尺以上是不是"},{"start":12465.237,"end":12470.725,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12478.834,"end":12504.995,"text":"一千六百平方公尺幾百將近五百坪對嘛五百坪那是要10%拿到主啦對啦我有一個概念尤其像我們新北市我們不要舉太多我們板橋就好了有很多他的基地面積不大那他也沒辦法渡幹那旁邊人家又是新的房子了是他如果不自己去圍牢他能怎麼辦對他又住在那間房子嗎"},{"start":12505.95,"end":12516.655,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":12533.604,"end":12543.639,"text":"但有的人的生存權跟居住權我認為也必須要受到保障所以你們在思考這個問題我覺得這個部分你也不能把它拿掉"},{"start":12544.591,"end":12568.228,"text":"你覺得呢?這個就是我們後面的一個法規檢討因為大家期待違老條例要能繼續執行嘛那所以我們未來再要繼續修法要往前走的時候我想剛剛委員所提到的這一些對於小基地的一個照顧這個我們還是會來重新再來檢討一下現行的這個規定裡面能不能做一些再做一些彈性的修正這我們會來檢討好部長我為什麼請你上來站著這樣"},{"start":12572.771,"end":12599.745,"text":"我覺得啦像圍牢這種小基地的我覺得很多人他不是不願意有大基地他現況就沒有辦法了啊那他現況沒有辦法的情況之下我們不能讓他不去蓋新房子啊你一天到晚講地震來怎麼辦那些人怎麼辦他的生存權跟居住權我認為必須也要受到保障啦這一點部長能不能也麻煩啊你要支持一下"},{"start":12601.611,"end":12608.619,"text":"我們再來好好的規劃吧,尤其是都會地區裡面的圍牢,太多了。好不好,好,謝謝,謝謝部長。"},{"start":12633.442,"end":12651.36,"text":"登記發言委員處不在場外其餘經已發言完畢,詢答結束。書面質詢及未答覆部分請相關單位一週內以書面答覆並附本通知本會。我們現在休息五分鐘,休息後繼續處理法案。"},{"start":13091.098,"end":13094.298,"text":"報告委員會現在進行法案審查請宣讀討論事項所有條文還有附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢後再進行協商"},{"start":13108.427,"end":13132.674,"text":"都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案行政院提案第二項第一款前段修正為實施容積管制前已興建完成或已申請建造執照之合法建築物。第九項後段增訂都市更新事業計劃與本條例圈圓圈月圈日修正之條文施行前擬定報合者得適用修正後之第二項第一款規定。其餘同現行條文委員王鴻薇等20人提案"},{"start":13133.234,"end":13161.745,"text":"第二項第一款前段修正為實施容積管制前已申請建造執照之和法建築物其餘同線型條文委員李彥秀等17人提案第二項第一款前段修正為實施容積管制前已申請建造執照或已興建完成之和法建築物第九項後段增訂與本條例113年全月全日修正施行前擬定報核之都市更新事業計劃得適用修正後之第二項第一款規定其餘同線型條文"},{"start":13163.499,"end":13184.148,"text":"附帶決議就都市更新條例第六十五條所定實施容積管制前已興建完成或已申請建造執照之合法建築物得突破同條第一項所定之容積率上限之容積獎勵內政部應研議相關政策建立取得容積獎勵之建物回饋在地社區之機制提案人委員王美惠等4人宣讀完畢好那我們現在進行寫上"},{"start":13199.568,"end":13216.627,"text":"呃...署長有還需要說明嗎?不然我們就直接囉好各位委員其實啊我們那個行政院版跟兩位委員的提案其實都跟行政院版差不多那我徵求所有委員的同意我們是不是就照行政院版修正通過"},{"start":13218.672,"end":13246.394,"text":"提案通過我們這邊表示同意那看在場還有一位委員如果他沒有問題的話我們是不是就可以這個方向好王委員沒問題啊我們就照行政院版吧好好那那我們就照行政院版提案通過那"},{"start":13264.61,"end":13279.284,"text":"那個附帶決議因為提案人王美惠有委員現在我們先處理其他事情好不好好不好好沒有啊這個"},{"start":13284.715,"end":13294.283,"text":"討論事項一二三都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案第三案以併案審查完略擬具審據報告提院會討論請問在場委員需不需經黨團協商"},{"start":13304.566,"end":13317.611,"text":"不須黨團協商本案議員會討論時由本席張召集委黃璐做補充說明另外我徵求我們在場所有委員的同意你還知道我不說嗎"},{"start":13323.524,"end":13325.086,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":13340.982,"end":13360.46,"text":"所以他們我覺得應該救災優先不管有沒有颱風架我想說應該也讓我們的消防署的官員能夠救災優先畢竟人命比法條還重要一些我們這個可以再來審所以我在此宣告"},{"start":13361.621,"end":13375.471,"text":"因應颱風來襲本週三是審查消防法部分條例修正草案案。屆時如果中央災害應變中心成立消防署及所有的官員必須進駐。"},{"start":13380.255,"end":13391.031,"text":"則除辦理新增提案說明並宣讀新增提案所有條文外相關提案條文並案審查則另定期繼續審查。"},{"start":13394.773,"end":13416.802,"text":"可以齁這個意思就是說如果要上班就是我招委來先把條文念一念然後就消防署的官員他們也是救災優先好不好這樣子可以齁好大家都同意齁好那我們就這樣好不好好"},{"start":13421.845,"end":13434.83,"text":"你們趕快去街上,我等你兩分鐘"},{"start":13450.851,"end":13456.355,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":13467.824,"end":13477.071,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":13496.267,"end":13497.267,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":13523.313,"end":13542.283,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。」案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案。」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":13546.067,"end":13547.667,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":13578.029,"end":13605.035,"text":"好,各位委員那我們有新增附帶決議,那我們請宣讀就都市更新條例第六十五條所定實施容積管制前以新建完成或以申請建造執照之合法建築物,得突破同條第一項所定之容積率上限之容積獎勵,內政部建請研議相關政策。建起內政部"},{"start":13612.363,"end":13632.07,"text":"建起內政部研議相關政策建立取得容積獎勵之建物回饋之機制提案委員提案人王美惠委員王美惠等4人宣讀完畢好各位有沒有意見好沒有意見那我們就通過附帶決議好一項好"},{"start":13636.839,"end":13640.48,"text":"本日會議到此結束,現在休息星期三繼續開會"},{"start":13665.632,"end":13665.792,"text":"主席"},{"start":13677.877,"end":13685.603,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具:「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。」案。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","委員發言時間":"08:30:29 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":1575.732,"text":"徵修政府採購法令．相關範本指引應用工程履歷．引進優良廠商．辦理公共建設政府機關．選擇比較好的廠商．維持工建品質"},{"start":1594.793,"end":1600.238,"text":"那麼第4個是要持續精進推動電子化政府採購"},{"start":1603.996,"end":1631.492,"text":"關於第三點要提升禮業爭議調解效力方面因為制度的設計目前在工程會的禮業爭議的調解案件非常多整個人力的不足所以導致相關的禮業爭議的調解時間上有比較長不過因為委員的調解也都非常的"},{"start":1633.933,"end":1635.513,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":1656.8,"end":1656.86,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1675.196,"end":1677.717,"text":"第4關於協助推動政府進營排放目標"},{"start":1701.434,"end":1709.947,"text":"那麼工程會這邊有幾個做法第一個是透過收集工程產品的碳排係數"},{"start":1712.606,"end":1734.334,"text":"這個包括其他機關在辦理相關公共工程有收集的比如說經濟部水利署那收集了這些碳排係數之後那麼工程會不會建立一個資料庫那這個資料庫的碳排係數就可以提供給其他機關在進行工程設計的時候可以使用"},{"start":1735.322,"end":1760.781,"text":"那第二個呢就是有了這些資料庫之後呢我們也希望要建置一個關於工程設計的排碳的估算系統那麼這個排碳的估算系統呢在政府公共工程設計階段透過這個系統會進行整個整個排碳的總量的計算那第三個呢在金職獎評審標準部分呢我們新增了"},{"start":1762.771,"end":1777.131,"text":"幾項標準．包括檢探的成效．具體的檢探成效．以及植栽計畫．綠富利等．這些與排碳相關的內容．都納入金職獎新增的評審的標準"},{"start":1780.148,"end":1807.526,"text":"第4我們要建置一個公共工程能夠優先使用再生力料的制度過去我們推動循環經濟希望能夠透過公共工程使用再生力料來減少天然骨材的使用讓整個工程料源能夠循環使用"},{"start":1808.922,"end":1835.293,"text":"第5個就是將生態檢核列為施工查核的重要項目推動公共工程的生態檢核作為紡釋實施計畫透過這幾個方式希望能夠在公共工程在設計或者是料源的選擇方面能夠達到淨零排放的目標"},{"start":1837.315,"end":1859.382,"text":"第5個關於推動均衡臺灣的政策目標部分目前有針對140項均衡臺灣政策的基礎建設包括交通、產業、文化、觀光、水資源、醫療、能源等進行列管定期考核一定能夠如期來完成"},{"start":1860.642,"end":1883.223,"text":"另外就是針對相關的風災災害的復原的部分工程會今年特別分組到各縣市去針對公共設施的部分它的災損情形跟各縣市政府直接面對面討論如何來申報政府的補助"},{"start":1884.904,"end":1913.867,"text":"各機關也相對的那直接到現場安排會刊等等這樣整個在關於災損的部分政府補助的部分能夠迅速來核定那麼公共工程的建設的推動呢攸關民眾的利益國家的競爭力社會的進步那麼更是經濟發展的主要動力本會將全力來協助各級政府機關加速公共建設的推動以利益"},{"start":1914.628,"end":1919.721,"text":"以及立國立民以上報告敬請主席及各位委員先進指教謝謝"},{"start":1928.693,"end":1955.705,"text":"現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止各委員如有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便醫事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息我們現在請登記第一位林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":1965.65,"end":1968.611,"text":"來謝謝主席本期邀請陳金德主委陳主委請上台"},{"start":1976.888,"end":2005.507,"text":"林委員長組長早各位這個我給你看一個三年前我的諮詢三年前我諮詢說我們勞務採購啊廠商旅業的驗收啊被抓到很多造假因為我們的勞務驗收啊可以用素面那這些照片啊我現在就這個以貪戀式為例橋樑檢測系統不同時間不同日期不同地點但是呢檢測的資料都都是用同樣的照片這個這個造假"},{"start":2007.267,"end":2029.446,"text":"那三年過去了啦 現在這種勞務驗收啦 造假的狀況啊 一樣層出不窮啦我來給你看一個台北市的例子我剛給你看的 先講好 台南市三年前的例子這台北市啊 台北市外包那個公車艇的清潔啊這個旅遊廠商啦 他驗收啦 他一樣用造假的照片這是不同日期 不同地點的"},{"start":2031.158,"end":2036.913,"text":"的照片同樣的照片來那審計部也注意到這一點我去抓了那審計部去抓了"},{"start":2040.543,"end":2068.468,"text":"他當然抽查比較大的勞務採購業五百萬以上的他抓了117件其中都是用照片來造假不同日期旅業照片一樣或者是說根本不同地點旅業照片一樣甚至不同年份旅業照片都是用同一張那為什麼會有這種造假狀況為什麼那麼容易蒙混過關因為第一個我們勞務採購一年大概八萬六千件"},{"start":2070.539,"end":2080.099,"text":"所以一般的業主就是各公務單位他沒有辦法完全的驗收因為太多件了再來我們的來日查購的規範裡面"},{"start":2082.281,"end":2109.847,"text":"本來就有允許可以用書面驗收但是呢他那個書面驗收他並沒有規範得很清楚說你書面要用什麼規範或者說你照片你的檔案要用什麼都沒有就很粗糙只是說你會用書面驗收甚至可以要求廠商自主驗收自主檢查我現在已經發現層次不窮的這根本就造假作弊"},{"start":2111.314,"end":2115.903,"text":"來請教主委像這種勞務採購一年八九萬件那你如何來防備"},{"start":2118.561,"end":2146.012,"text":"謝謝委員我想整個採購制度的驗收的部分主要是主辦機關的權責那主辦機關如果說有驗收不實我想這個已經涉及違法我聽過一件我看你還不是很了解這個問題第一個他老屋採購本來他可以用書面來驗收只是現在廠商會作弊因為你一年八萬六千件各機關真的沒有能力"},{"start":2147.433,"end":2166.408,"text":"我現在接你 你應該 你們工程會負責主管這個部分現在用新的科技來幫忙抓幣啦 你可以用AI的東西現在國外都用採購機關用AI技術 你可以去識別重複的照片 或者去識別重複的檔案"},{"start":2168.277,"end":2176.632,"text":"甚至應該評估採用電子化的書面驗收啦設置一個系統去阻擋這種重複照片這種作弊的方式"},{"start":2177.588,"end":2204.595,"text":"也就是說現在AI是最夯的一個東西啊到處都在講AI那實際上政府應該要導入AI我給工程會做參考啦如果說制度上有缺失工程會會透過整個驗收的應該有的程序啊這不是制度上的缺失這個制度已經規範很久了我是說你技術上的問題啦你們現在下面那些各單位你們下面的主管應該很清楚啦用這種假照片用假書面來驗收的"},{"start":2206.325,"end":2216.9,"text":"一大堆啦你很多鄉鎮公所抓不到很多縣市政府也抓不到因為太多件了啦中央政府裡面一樣一大堆啦那你現在有新的科技的話我們應該這個是審計單位建議的"},{"start":2219.093,"end":2220.754,"text":"現在我們要來徵收公共工程這種碳費公共碳費的問題我們的公共建設要如何來因應"},{"start":2245.882,"end":2263.715,"text":"因為現在大家會擔心公共工程已經很難飆出去了因為人工物價上漲的問題那你現在在增加碳費那會不會造成營造工程的物價指數在上漲或成本多數的成本誰來吸收"},{"start":2266.102,"end":2279.272,"text":"攤費的徵收是環境部的業務的確是也有業者反應這方面委員剛才所指教的問題不過正在工程會的立場我們協助整個辦理機關在"},{"start":2283.075,"end":2309.069,"text":"公共工程的設計階段或者是在施工階段能夠達到相關的減碳的材料或減碳的減碳的措施讓政府的這個整個減碳目標能夠來完成第一個那我跟主委交換一下意見因為第一個我們最近的那個建材已經有一些上漲像水泥類就漲了10%水泥類漲很多那你現在在在增多碳費的話"},{"start":2310.529,"end":2331.599,"text":"那勢必啊那營造商的成本也會增加嘛那重點是說如何計算啊不是只有成不是只有成本增加那這個碳備要如何估算如果以公共工程工程會現在提供的那個範本就是說你你各項公共工程啊制定一個表公共工程節能減碳減核表他現在工程會現在公布這個表這個太簡單了啦"},{"start":2336.363,"end":2362.194,"text":"根本算不出來你碳費要多少他那個都是一個什麼是或否變成是非題啦這個表啊根本沒有辦法計算出需要多少碳費現在只有很少數的國營事業或者一些像水利工程等等他們有另外訂定比較可以計算出所謂的碳排量或者是他的所增加碳成本的"},{"start":2364.397,"end":2365.637,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2379.986,"end":2407.447,"text":"一千一百個資料左右那收集完整之後在資料庫裡面會提供給各機關作為工程設計的使用就碳排係數可以換算成整個單項的碳排量那另外呢會建置一個估算系統這個估算系統就好像你一個工程有多少單項可以計算出應該有多少要多少費用多少預算所以將來透過這個估算系統可以去估算整個碳排"},{"start":2408.468,"end":2415.958,"text":"謝謝主委這個舉例來英國2022年他就訂一個公共工程生命週期的碳評估指引我覺得他這個設計非常簡單那業者或者"},{"start":2420.988,"end":2448.895,"text":"業主就是我們公務單位還有營造商兩雙方都很容易能夠來參照他就把一個工程概要以三個階段因為就規劃階段西部設計階段以及完工後的階段那你只要把你用的量的數字填進去他都可以幫你計算出你的碳排放大概可能跟主委你現在講的就是一個估算系統我們工程會在做的大概是差不多但這個應該要快啦因為你因為什麼時候要開始徵收碳配10月吧"},{"start":2450.779,"end":2458.936,"text":"徵收碳費但是那匯率是下個月啊你下個月就要算了你這個系統還在建制這個月啊這個月啊"},{"start":2462.34,"end":2480.79,"text":"這個碳費剛開始是前500碳排大戶才徵收我們現在是針對每個公共工程可以能夠估算多少碳排環境部大概定一個他說未來的碳費一般匯率標準大概一噸大概300到500塊"},{"start":2483.567,"end":2498.023,"text":"那你這樣一定會影響到這個業者的成本嘛那過去也曾經說過那個工程會這工程會講的就是你前任講的啦那麼你增加出來的這個減碳的成本那就是用物條"},{"start":2499.344,"end":2513.972,"text":"其實物條不是一個根本解決方式啦你應該還是要能夠以他能夠計算出就你剛剛講的工程會那個系統要趕快出來讓讓雙方業者跟營造商雙方可以計算出那你的碳成本到底多少"},{"start":2514.727,"end":2542.049,"text":"所以我們也在金質獎裡面新增包括利負利阿或能夠減碳的這些標準能夠增加碳費嘛所以能夠來抵減就能夠來平衡掉就是排碳的這個整個量阿謝謝主委我簡單因為我時間到了第一個就是你下個月要確定碳費以後工程會那麼應該要告訴我們你要如何因應碳費那麼造成營建物價的破動"},{"start":2543.721,"end":2544.602,"text":"現在比較麻煩的是已經執行、已經招標、已經決標或開標中"},{"start":2554.378,"end":2581.849,"text":"還沒有確定得標的 開標中的公共工程案那這些業者 是不是可以向機關要求增加預算因為你這些增出來的成本 陳金德可以讓他做一個物調嘛或者是預算的增加嘛但是新工程可能沒有問題啦 因為你可以把碳拖出來的成本計算進去嘛所以你的預算計算沒有問題但是已經執行中的 已經招標的 絕標的 開標中的這些工程 怎麼辦"},{"start":2582.756,"end":2586.239,"text":"主辦機關應該可以去橫走,要不要變更契約,或者是新增的公建案預算方面要重新考量"},{"start":2603.632,"end":2604.493,"text":"接下來邀請許智傑委員質詢"},{"start":2633.265,"end":2656.896,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請主委請陳主委委員早主委早我想主委的工作報告就是捐贈臺灣,捐贈董產信等等的我們也希望算能夠加強處理另外其實我長期在關心的就是政府採購制度"},{"start":2659.195,"end":2688.675,"text":"我們也希望說工程會能夠盡量推動增豐跟主計的參與那這樣子可以協助工程就是避免那讓新宿不正的人有機會去操作那如果是新宿很正的人也避免受到那個不必要的質疑所以其實增豐跟主計我覺得我們都是相當希望說他能夠辛苦一點多參與"},{"start":2689.815,"end":2715.047,"text":"讓我們工程可以進行得更好那另外像我們高雄機場這個這個發包不知道政務官主席有沒有參與這個還在設計階段他有兩期那個設計才剛完成審查而已對他就是半半施工那第一期還分兩期第一期的一之一已經發包出去了"},{"start":2716.092,"end":2726.459,"text":"那第一期的第二期現在在絕標階段那請教一下第一期一之一這個立體停車場同胞這個工程政府跟組織不知道有沒有參與"},{"start":2730.772,"end":2751.259,"text":"我們再瞭解看看,不過政風跟主計一般在辦理這種招標的主辦機關他同時就可以邀請主計或政風在開標、整個決標的過程當中全程參與對,所以其實我就跟主委,上一次主委第一次質詢的時候我跟主委報告過嘛,就是說"},{"start":2752.319,"end":2778.048,"text":"其實政風跟組織的參與我覺得蠻重要的公務員有沒有擔當事實上跟政風組織的參與也很關係如果今天其實那個大金額的絕標工程今天如果是用最低價標我們知道都可能會影響到品質所以我一直希望說政風跟組織可以多參與那就是說你今天大工程的招標因為其實最容易做手的也是大工程"},{"start":2779.232,"end":2796.375,"text":"啊所以呢其實這個部分評審標的話就有力標的話事實上就是說我們擔心就是如果心術不正的人去參與這一個大的標案啊如果沒有政府人主去參與有可能就會有事相說說或綁標的情形"},{"start":2797.276,"end":2811.127,"text":"那如果是新宿很正的有擔當的公務員他真的是選到最好的那也怕外界質疑或者是有時候其實我一直有一句話就是說如果檢察官爛宿會造成公務員不敢容易認識"},{"start":2812.208,"end":2828.901,"text":"所以我們會讓有擔當的公務員就是說有政治有政風跟組織的參與事實上你就可以很大聲的很心裡沒有問題的告訴他你看我完全都是公平公正公開那我就是挑最適合的最有利標來做這個工程"},{"start":2829.875,"end":2846.2,"text":"根據我的瞭解跟經驗現在這種政府公共工程的採購啊政風主計在場的比例是蠻普遍的啦一般承辦的主管都會希望政風也在場對其實這個就是根據報告從"},{"start":2848.337,"end":2874.296,"text":"吳鋒某當工程會主委一直到現在我每一年都會去看政府跟組織參與的比例那以及他最有力標標出去工程標出去的比例那我會去看這個趨勢到底有沒有成長事實上這幾年來我們看到最有力標的訣標事實上政府跟組織的參與跟幫助這個最有力標的實施也看到了成效"},{"start":2875.177,"end":2898.389,"text":"所以我會繼續的要求就是說我們工程會也能夠把這個精神再注意因為坦白講最有利標就像那個臺北市政府的那些標案一樣最怕的就是說到底有沒有人心術不正想要從中謀利那你如果說有正風主計從頭到尾參與的話其實這些東西可能就不敢"},{"start":2900.263,"end":2927.261,"text":"所以我希望說工程會員師能夠秉持這個原則能夠繼續去要求我們來鼓勵各機關能夠照這樣做那這個是舉這個例子一之一期我只是問問說有沒有參與那一之二期今年也主委陳說希望說能夠完成決標那我們預計2032年可以完成這個主委應該有信心"},{"start":2929.242,"end":2951.465,"text":"整個兩期總預算大概900多億那原計劃這個我請副主委李德副主委你來沒事我們時間還不多我們就希望那個主委幫忙多要求其實我還有一個問題下一次再問現在沒有時間問其實交通部一直跟我說要16年我就覺得怎麼會要這麼久"},{"start":2953.118,"end":2967.292,"text":"那工程會是不是可以去協助一下就是說他分半半施工那一個半就是8年一個半就是8年兩個要16年你像那個泰國青麥機場5年就完工了全部就做完了他是國內線跟國"},{"start":2969.775,"end":2991.948,"text":"國際線不能夠同時對對對我知道所以他半班施工我知道我是說那個時間有沒有機會再縮短我們想辦法來要求工程會有沒有辦法去給他們比較專業的工程上的指導我們來協助民航局對可以把那個時間縮短的部分能夠對在界面上多整合來說短時間這個拜託工程會能夠協助啦因為我一直對這16年"},{"start":2993.729,"end":2995.651,"text":"最後一個就是我們捷運黃線現在我們預計2030年能夠完成"},{"start":3016.19,"end":3028.166,"text":"那目前的確是遇到問題也需要工程會協助就是我們在經過這個最近就是物條啦缺工啦疫情啦等等的現在的確我們這個在"},{"start":3032.111,"end":3052.119,"text":"接應黃線的施工真的是有遇到的困難那當然最主要的困難就是經費的困難那基本上上一次追加減預算我也提了就是給工程會給那個相關的單位交通部等等的我們從108年、111年、112年這個基本上包括這一次113年的9月我們這個變更計畫也都已經完成了"},{"start":3060.402,"end":3066.694,"text":"所以這個部分其實也謝謝工程會的協助那現在還有一個就是說我們那個工程預備會"},{"start":3068.083,"end":3092.001,"text":"工程預備費希望說現在追加之後但是後面還是有可能會有誤調後面其實還是會有一些增加的機會其實我們也滿擔心這個工程要如期完成還需要很多不少的協助那目前交通部給我們的答應預定是7%啦那當然7%在誤調之後"},{"start":3094.69,"end":3117.249,"text":"我們覺得不夠那他們高雄市政府還要跟工程會還有一個協調的會議那我希望說是不是主委這邊可以多幫忙我們在協調高雄市政府跟交通部以及相關的機關單位市府本來是希望15%啦阿中央是7%啦阿一半差不多11% 12%啦"},{"start":3121.741,"end":3142.394,"text":"再拜託主委你是我們高雄市的副市長出身的所以對高雄市的這個部分希望主委能夠多花點心力那這個部分在需要工程會意見的時候也希望工程會可以多幫忙對副主委也是所以希望說我們主委副主委能夠多幫忙好拜託感謝謝謝許智傑委員質詢"},{"start":3150.151,"end":3152.152,"text":"接下來邀請黃建豪委員質詢好謝謝主席那我們要請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":3171.036,"end":3186.325,"text":"委員長主委早主委首先我想請教一下這個在今天的這個報告裡面有提到現在預告來修正所謂最有利標的評選辦法裡面有增列了這個減少溫室氣體排放的這個技術項目我想問一下他的這個"},{"start":3187.728,"end":3205.636,"text":"平選辦法陣列這一條那它用在了後續的所有公共工程還在此時選項之一還有推動這樣的這個平選因為減少溫室氣體排放這個是一個很籠統的這個形容詞啦那到底減少多少會被列為平選的標準"},{"start":3207.521,"end":3234.615,"text":"我想這個是機關在辦理招標的時候決標方式是用評審的話那麼評審有很多項目那我們這個是這個規劃是希望在評審項目裡面能夠增加這個碳排減碳的這樣的考量所以現階段來講這個東西只是鼓勵還不是強制嗎鼓勵然後各機關他自己去橫著看是比例是多少我想這個是主辦機關的選擇"},{"start":3235.856,"end":3253.605,"text":"那未來比例減板減少多少?主委是說你要下放到變成是各招標機關自己來決定到時候你們會去協調這個環境部去訂相關的標準嗎?還是一樣由各主管機關自己決定多少叫做減碳符合這個減少溫室氣體排放的標準"},{"start":3255.543,"end":3282.659,"text":"我想這個應該是希望各主辦機關來決定他應該每個工程有不同的考量所以檢探在這個工程裡面是要站到什麼程度各主辦機關他的這個訂定我想是機關的權利環境部不會訂一個整體的標準嗎我想要問一下環境部"},{"start":3283.559,"end":3309.519,"text":"那這個是因為是納入這個評選決標的過程裡面所以當然廠商會提他的相關計畫嘛這個案的相關計畫這個計畫裡面包括安全啊等等檢探的計畫所以那評選委員可以針對這些計畫去認為他是做的好不好有沒有達成效果好不好所以那個分數啊比例還是主辦機關去這個檢探是占5%或占2%或占40%"},{"start":3312.381,"end":3329.837,"text":"我還是建議啦因為今天針對這我是覺得是鼓勵是好事就是說真的往這方向走是對包括你們的這今天簡報裡面也提到未來對於這個對這種減碳的標準是未來工程會的目標但是到底對應多少我覺得應該有個目標方向出來那我們再跟環境部商量"},{"start":3330.217,"end":3352.728,"text":"對阿,這樣子大家廠商他們才有一個方向才有辦法依據嘛,不然到底減少多少就是說符合最有利標的標準,不如如果又放到各單位去做,那其實跟現在其實差不多啦,因為現在其實本來你的技術表裡面本來就有說針對環境保護會對環境影響多少等等的,它本來就可以放進這個相關的評選標準,但是因為過去都沒有訂定所謂的數字,那裡面訂定數字當然大家各單位各行其事嘛,"},{"start":3353.708,"end":3357.329,"text":"主委你什麼時候決定要去的?我們這個行程安排很早"},{"start":3375.363,"end":3382.775,"text":"9月初就安排去不好意思因為那天剛好立法院召委你9月初就決定要去你知道我們什麼時候收到通知嗎"},{"start":3383.749,"end":3411.902,"text":"我們9月24我們下午我們立法院的委員們臺中就是臺中的捷運沿線的委員都是9月24的中午過後我們才收到這個通知好那你很早以前就決定然後9月5早上要去但9月5早上剛好立法院開議要選召委所以沒有一個沒有一個委員本人能夠親自去現場去給你簡單的這個報告讓你瞭解一下地方建設的狀況所以你看這個照片大多只能派助理好不好主委"},{"start":3413.03,"end":3428.653,"text":"以後這種重大工程大家一定都非常關切的通知可能是慢了一點這個部分拜託主委未來這個相關通知要早一點因為那天是去看技術審查所以相關的委員到現場去看"},{"start":3428.953,"end":3441.057,"text":"好所以接下來一樣是捷運藍線的部分那當現場有討論到關於這個現在的基本設計修正的部分那現場也提到說交通局那邊也提到說希望兩週內能夠送進這個工程會來提標來審查"},{"start":3445.479,"end":3446.26,"text":"提報到工程會去"},{"start":3461.44,"end":3463.662,"text":"我想那天安排相關的委員去看就表示說已經進入最後可以核定的階段了"},{"start":3484.684,"end":3508.004,"text":"臺中市政府有提一個修正這個修正也馬上可以核定那基本設計我想這樣來審議有些意見再補正一下會很快年底之前這個核定這個基本設計是沒有問題的好謝謝我們就期待說因為這個捷運10年前就開始在做相關的文書作業了那10年後我們希望說明年能夠順利的來動因為這個表定也要蓋10年"},{"start":3509.085,"end":3524.991,"text":"好 其實真的是非常久那到底10年內能不能完成待會我們會討論一下所以這部分我們希望市府如果兩中內送進了這個工程會那既然大家有相關的共識都有了現場也討論過了我們希望他能夠盡速年底前來把它核定可以嗎好 沒有問題"},{"start":3526.431,"end":3542.644,"text":"那再來我看這個一樣是提到捷運工程的流標的問題我剛剛想說為什麼講10年我們都很擔心能不能做到因為從過去這些年下來包括是北捷的這個各縣也好或是說甚至這個桃園捷運也好我想流標的次數都非常非常多次啊"},{"start":3543.044,"end":3562.995,"text":"那這一次臺中捷運除了藍線之外未來除了捷運藍線那包含捷運綠線延伸包含捷運橘線有可能同一時間臺中同時有很多的捷運工程在進行然後想問工程會這邊有什麼樣的手段或是有什麼樣的建議讓市府在招標的過程裡面不要再發生過去這些年下來這種捷運工程大量流暴的狀況"},{"start":3564.4,"end":3578.639,"text":"我想這個因為捷運工程本身就是一個巨額的採購所以能夠做這樣子的捷運工程的廠商不管國內外都很有限加上我們整個物價"},{"start":3579.881,"end":3580.381,"text":"所謂合理其實就是價格的問題"},{"start":3606.066,"end":3625.022,"text":"價格裡面又涉及到現在每年就是這種營建土建成本還有我們現在這個勞務標的問題這個部分到工程會議你有沒有標準說讓地方政府在開票過程裡面有彈性讓他後續不管是物條也好或是他的這個預留相關預算也好"},{"start":3625.723,"end":3628.206,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":3645.447,"end":3650.271,"text":"最後一個問題這個是你們自己要政府採購法規定的各單位本來就要上傳他們的招票案件"},{"start":3670.367,"end":3670.607,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":3689.494,"end":3689.614,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":3711.31,"end":3738.118,"text":"主委你也掌握到這情況嗎?那後續你們要怎麼處理?我們在每個月的督導匯報裡面會要求這兩個單位做說明來瞭解所以他們目前還沒有說明過嗎?我們下一個督導匯報會議會來要求說明結果再請主委主題才是請主委也提供給本會委員讓我們知道一下好不好主委?我們書面來提供謝謝主席謝謝黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":3743.186,"end":3743.486,"text":"主席陳珠瑋"},{"start":3764.378,"end":3783.785,"text":"委員長主委長您是公共工程委員會的主委所以有關合約有關所有公共工程的合約由您來做解釋應該是最好的人選有一句話叫做政府的採購法的精神是維護公共利益以及公平合理請問您是否認同"},{"start":3785.556,"end":3800.906,"text":"這個是政府採購法開宗明義的這個主旨啦我想好謝謝主委那想請那這個我從我們調了資料從立法院預算中心針對政府的媒體宣傳費報告指出各機關沒宣費連續3年的得標廠商"},{"start":3803.768,"end":3815.399,"text":"採限制性招標居多而且得標廠商集中度甚高以至於政府的政策及宣傳業務未能擴及社會大眾必須檢討適妥性"},{"start":3817.028,"end":3845.705,"text":"我們也都知道說採用限制性招標跟選擇性招標大多數的廠商連進場的資格都無法取得更不用說比較所以說限制性招標也好選擇性招標也好雖然比較方便但對機關是不需要經過冗長的公開上網及標期的規定所以直接聯絡廠商請適合的廠商適合這個是主觀的適合的廠商來進行報價但是其實對於其他可以想要競標的廠商這是很不公平的方式"},{"start":3846.525,"end":3858.598,"text":"而且最直接的如果機關的公務員若有圖利特定廠商的情形更不容易藉不公開的漏洞只找同一批的廠商來採購形成堅強的共犯結構"},{"start":3864.924,"end":3881.49,"text":"雖然說我們政府採購法22條明令的可以不用公開招標的方式來去例外而機關可以選擇適當的廠商進行議價依法永續但是請問請問一下主委您認為這樣符合政府採購法的精神嗎"},{"start":3883.859,"end":3900.704,"text":"這個政務採購法裡面的招標方式有很多種那包括限制性招標所以每個機關他採取他要的招標方式這個我們尊重機關的意見而且都合法所以說您對於具體的改善有沒有什麼提出什麼具體的改善方向呢"},{"start":3901.305,"end":3906.168,"text":"那我想請問一下主委您今年公共工程委員會的媒體宣傳費用去年是多少?那今年呢?"},{"start":3928.988,"end":3938.219,"text":"也是220萬那請問去說那請問得票廠商是哪裡呢我可能請相關來說明吧來誰指望請問那我也想說"},{"start":3941.02,"end":3966.292,"text":"報告委員去年是泰宜廣告公司那主要是在辦金職獎那今年是一位比較新創的一個媒體公司那我們就是拍這個金職獎的宣傳還有兩性平權的這些宣傳影片有KPI嗎?你們內部一定有KPI的因為我曾經在港務公司待過我知道內部有KPI"},{"start":3967.068,"end":3983.846,"text":"是跟委員報告這個部分我們就是有訂那個收視就是點閱率這些點閱率220萬那請問點閱率的影片大概多少點閱率的影片我們我們是一個"},{"start":3986.19,"end":4008.11,"text":"抱歉我們手上的資料是總計的是曝光數是1300萬次點閱率是18萬次幾支影片我們總共有一部5分鐘的然後還有濃縮版的影片30秒的所以幾支應該是5支左右4支全部加起來多少18000次18萬次"},{"start":4012.202,"end":4012.602,"text":"分享次數幾次點擊有92296次"},{"start":4028.891,"end":4043.039,"text":"我們有一個曝光一個是曝光我知道我知道我自己我自己都在關於自己的粉絲專頁這個是矜持講矜持講的內容啦吼那麼包括這些相關工程達人的一些影片啦比較屬於單純是"},{"start":4045.1,"end":4048.302,"text":"工程會的政策工程會的業務範圍"},{"start":4076.982,"end":4093.78,"text":"還有另外一個問題就是我還是回到合約因為合約一個限制性招標一個是這個限制性招標跟我們看到的所謂的這個選擇性招標之外我也想請問一下OT跟ROT不同在哪裡"},{"start":4095.469,"end":4120.371,"text":"ROT是等於是重建重建然後這個操作然後再轉移嘛那OT是操作轉移嘛那這個我提報告委這個業務已經是財政部的業務了那我只是問清楚合約上這以前是工程會的業務現在出差的部分是財政部的業務我知道可是您還是可以解說是OT換ROT需不需要重新招標"},{"start":4122.782,"end":4146.864,"text":"我只想知道是不是需要重新招標公務員報告就是招標的時候基本上就有權利義務關係所以這個OT或ROT在招標的時候會說明清楚所以說如果是一個OT案直接換成ROT所以OT的精神這樣子合法嗎"},{"start":4147.963,"end":4166.702,"text":"報告委員這一位涉及到個案的企業變更的內容和他的容許性所以這個可能要個案來看所以說這樣子來講的話如果一個案子假設說我今天有個優良廠商我跟你簽的是OT合約然後慢慢就直接找另外一個協力廠商然後變成ROT這樣在法律上是允許的囉"},{"start":4168.035,"end":4192.576,"text":"我想再跟委員報告 促參的部分主管機關是財政部所以不管OT ROT BOT全部是財政部那如果說財政部說它是違法的呢這個是財政部做解釋阿 那工程會呢針對是政府採購 如果說它有違反政府採購我們工程會會去了解我只是有一個問題請說 不方便去幫財政部去做相關的這個促參法的相關的解釋"},{"start":4193.397,"end":4198.883,"text":"我為什麼把這件事特意邀他出來談的原因是說因為不管是您現在的講法跟"},{"start":4200.251,"end":4222.978,"text":"當初吳哲成吳前主委的講法都是經過講起來某個程度上你說是個案個案不過如果以通案來講是不是應該要經過一個重新招標的檢訊呢我可能要檢視一下他的原始合約啦原始合約如果有雙方合意說OT期限到了之後能夠繼續做重建的話我想還是根據合約如果OT還沒到就直接做ROT呢還是看原來合約來看"},{"start":4223.638,"end":4223.878,"text":"東岸廣場的案子"},{"start":4246.243,"end":4259.377,"text":"基本上來講如果假以雙方第三方如果當初合約沒有寫而有一個場上直接介入的話我們有一個諮詢委員會會針對合約的禮約的情形做諮詢諮詢委員會主委今天負責人在場嗎諮詢委員你好"},{"start":4268.852,"end":4284.86,"text":"針對東岸 基隆市東岸廣場的案子 OT直接抓ROT請問這樣是合法的嗎?而且在OT的合約還沒到之前請問這樣是合法的嗎?先跟委員報告就是說原則上因為我們是處理政府採購的契約"},{"start":4285.8,"end":4289.782,"text":"所以這樣講起來說公共工程委員會對這個案子完全無法負責完全無法介入就對了"},{"start":4309.37,"end":4321.421,"text":"如果說是請我們從政府採購契約的角度來提供一些意見那我想我們是可以提供這樣的一個所以我問OT如果要換ROT是不是要經過重新招標"},{"start":4323.191,"end":4349.003,"text":"通案來講OT如果說他在OT如果說在期限他要變成ROT的話是不是需要公開是不是需要重新招標我只是要回答yes or no因為他不是走政府採購所以他沒有所謂公開不公開招標的問題因為他看起來有可能是走促餐那促餐因為他根本就沒有走政府採購的程序那OT的話ROT如果說就是不需要重新再招標就可以直接這樣做囉您現在這句話隨時現在會議上面都有記錄喔"},{"start":4356.048,"end":4368.997,"text":"因為政府採購企業裡面目前沒有這個類別所以我不敢跟委員講說那到底可以或不可以因為我們目前政府採購企業裡面並沒有處理這方面的問題好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":4384.5,"end":4395.803,"text":"好謝謝我們現在請陳淑月召委謝謝主席請主席邀請陳金德主委請主委委員長"},{"start":4403.424,"end":4420.351,"text":"主委早安本席想先請教一下我們有注意到主委在26號的臉書發布了一個消息說宜蘭鐵路高架地方的配合款渴望從105.72億下修為53.87億"},{"start":4427.054,"end":4449.528,"text":"有宣布了這樣的一個消息嗎那因為你這樣子一發文之後啊真的是一個震撼彈喔在我們地方因為我們彰化同樣也有鐵路高架的一個問題那過去以來在整個這個推動鐵路高架的過程當中當然有很多的條件才能夠讓這個計畫慢慢的往前推嗎那其中的配合款就"},{"start":4450.288,"end":4463.732,"text":"曾經膠著了一大段的時間那我想請問一下就是說陳主委基於什麼樣的條件跟理由可以宣布說依然鐵路高價地方配合款可望下修為53.87億"},{"start":4466.148,"end":4480.547,"text":"謝謝委員因為醫院的鐵路高加泰申請審議的將近10年那這10年當中事實上他的鐵路立體化的相關經費分擔的審查要點有修正過"},{"start":4482.009,"end":4499.824,"text":"那我們後來去檢視啊因為每個地方的鐵路高架地方政府的分攤的確都很沉重那尤其是非六都的部分啊財務狀況都啊不是那麼好所以呢這個分攤是按照財務狀況分財務等級來分配比方說有7525有8614等等這個超中的等級應該在之前的這個"},{"start":4508.491,"end":4526.159,"text":"總經費的分配就是中央和地方的負擔應該就已經有納入計算了嗎這次我們檢視就其中的用地取得鐵路高架因為他要現場的那個路線是高架所以在高架的同時旁邊要徵收土地做臨時軌就是要涉及土地徵收那這個土地徵收將來呢是屬於"},{"start":4528.44,"end":4540.153,"text":"國營的臺灣鐵路公司的所以才認為說既然將來的土地全屬是屬於中央的所以這個土地取得我們建立由中央來負擔另外第二個就是說調度廠就是機廠"},{"start":4543.496,"end":4544.156,"text":"那您這樣的建議,這樣的想法有共識了嗎?"},{"start":4566.756,"end":4578.725,"text":"這個我們當中這兩三個月都有密集召開過會議那麼也檢視過這個審查要點那行政院也經過一步長時間的討論基本上這個原則針對財務狀況比較不好的縣市來做這樣的一個主張也是算合理的"},{"start":4589.138,"end":4605.016,"text":"好那就是如果說宜蘭鐵路高架就是可以從這個地方負擔可以從105.72億下修為53.87億那彰化的鐵路高架是不是也可以下修這個地方的負擔款"},{"start":4605.456,"end":4630.892,"text":"我會跟部長交通部長來討論所以我剛才講的那兩個項目一個是用地取得一個是管理機場有新設機場的話那個調度的那部分不要納入分攤那用地取得完全中央來負擔因為那是中央的財產就是鐵路公司的財產所以這部分會比較明確所以很難從數字來看我要看裡面的配置到底263.3億的"},{"start":4636.668,"end":4647.353,"text":"102.7億有多少是用地取得有多少是去分攤到剛才講的那個調度廠的費用若是這兩部分的話我會來跟交通部來協調"},{"start":4648.897,"end":4675.768,"text":"是 因為在彰化鐵路高架也是地方引頸期盼20多年 超過20年以上的一個重大建設因為在這個推動的過程曾經在就是自償率的這個計算的時候就焦灼了一段時間所以我們也希望就是說在這樣子的一個負擔 中央跟地方的一個負擔的比例我們希望就是全國一致的因為我們不希望說主委好像是宜蘭人"},{"start":4681.95,"end":4697.037,"text":"有這樣的這個建議 一定是有根據一些過去的案例 或者是說現在的狀況 過去也有案例用力取得有專政府負擔的 也有縣市有這樣的案例"},{"start":4698.198,"end":4714.332,"text":"好謝謝那我們就是請我們主委要努力了因為您是也是政委嘛那政委就是交通部也是您在督導的業務是這樣子嗎是好謝謝那接下來本席來關心一下有關這個近年轉型的這個政策因為剛剛從"},{"start":4715.613,"end":4734.242,"text":"主委的這個業務報告裡面也有講到這個淨零轉型也是我們工程會五大的施政目標之一那我們來回顧一下就是說在2021年這個世界地球日4月22日的時候我們就宣布在2050年要淨零排放這樣子一個目標"},{"start":4735.382,"end":4764.04,"text":"那在2022年的3月也公布了近年排放轉型的一個路徑那同年的12月也公布了近年轉型就是在2030年階段性的一個目標所以我們在最近兩年公共工程委員會也開始推動這個公共工程的一個檢探在2022年也8月31號發布了公共工程節能檢探檢核注意事項那剛剛在你的優惠報告裡面你也有提到就是說未來的這個最有力標也會把"},{"start":4765.541,"end":4779.855,"text":"剪碳的這個部分的這個計算也納入評選的一個條件嗎那我覺得說如果說要納入一個評選的條件就是要讓不管是業務單位或者是投票廠商都要有一個依循的一個準則嗎對不對對"},{"start":4782.796,"end":4809.756,"text":"那我們看到就是說工程會的節能減碳目標就是說希望從減碳設計還有材料及工法等三大面向著手那藉由政府採購機制促使採購機關承攬廠商落實推動節能減碳然後逐步引導供應鏈邁向淨零排放那我想在這個過程我們工程會也訂立了三個階段的一個目標那其實其中有兩個很重要的部分就是"},{"start":4810.276,"end":4833.469,"text":"有關公共工程的檢探指引還有探牌資料庫數據的一個建立那有關這兩項目前就是我們知道工程會就是考量各類工程的特性不同有將公共工程分為八大類就是建築下水道水利能源橋樑道路隧道及軌道類"},{"start":4834.349,"end":4849.309,"text":"那就是要請這個相關的工程主管機關依工程的類型特性訂定這個公共工程檢探的指引那就主委你了解目前這八大類的相關主管機關的進度如何"},{"start":4852.523,"end":4880.282,"text":"我們這個指引的部分陸續在協調各部會來討論目前是水利的部分水利跟水保有完成其他還在討論當中預計是明年114年來完成這個指引這是一個做法之一另外比較重要的是那個碳排係數的資料庫的建立有那個每單項產品的碳排係數才能夠去計算碳排總量"},{"start":4881.042,"end":4902.359,"text":"所以我們另外還要建立一個估算系統等這些都建制完成我想主辦機關來計算碳排就比較容易了剛剛我們提到八大類那主委只提到水利那這樣子是進度是不是會不會差距太大了那你又說104年要完成嗎完成這個碳排指引我想這個會命請各位各部會來訪問"},{"start":4906.923,"end":4929.396,"text":"指引是OK啦那我們比較前端的那個碳排係數的建立需要收集很多資料就其他辦理招標的機關裡面現有的資料去收集或者是現有的廠商他的這個建築材料的一些碳排係數我們收集完了這個才能夠比較長遠的來進行碳排"},{"start":4930.034,"end":4949.992,"text":"是 那個碳排資料庫的一個規劃建置也是預計在114年年底完成嗎我這個請企劃處來我目前是1100筆啦所以那個要陸續再收集那我們希望能夠也是114年能夠能夠收集更廣泛的資料"},{"start":4950.928,"end":4976.705,"text":"是因為我們這些資料若沒有完成的話就是不管是業務單位或者是投標廠商他們都沒有一個依循的一個準則嘛是不是所以我們也希望這個工程會應該盡速完成就是檢探作業的參考指引跟節能檢探的檢核機制嘛這樣才能夠掌握這個成效然後應該在這個過程當中你們要積極的去檢討相關的一個策略吧應該做一個滾動式的一個檢討好的好謝謝主委"},{"start":4995.339,"end":4995.499,"text":"請陳金德主委"},{"start":5015.058,"end":5035.649,"text":"委員長主委長剛才陳樹葉委員提到有關於鐵路立體化相關設施的一個建立這對當地縣市政府來說都是一個重要的交通建設那陳主委也身兼政委負責協調督促交通部門相關的公共建設那"},{"start":5037.49,"end":5065.692,"text":"對於宜蘭的這個鐵路高架化臺鐵的鐵路高架化大概是從市城到羅東應該是這樣到東山那相關的這個建設對宜蘭的發展是非常的重要當然陳主委在做事一定是依據相關的法令以及程序不管是相關的土地徵收的這樣的一個臺鐵的公司的資產或是有無機廠的設置等等"},{"start":5066.452,"end":5094.83,"text":"這當然都有關係到相關的這個中央補助的一個標準以及地方的相關的財務分級的一個狀況那現在像彰化的這樣的一個台鐵高交化也是彰化重要的一個交通的建設那我們對於相關各縣市的一個補助必須符合相關的程序法令及標準來讓當地的重大交通建設得以順利推行來主委簡單說明一下"},{"start":5095.47,"end":5122.542,"text":"我想當中就是用地取得我剛剛講用地取得將來是屬於鐵路公司的資產所以這部分如果是由中央來負擔是上層合適而且過去也有其他縣市的鐵路高架它的用地取得是由中央來補助的所以差別在這裡所以剛才提到彰化的鐵路高架部分如果單獨去計算用地取得多少費用那我想這部分由中央來負擔也算合理"},{"start":5123.302,"end":5139.372,"text":"這個部分陳書業召委應該會召集陳思凱部長以及陳主委我們一起來共同討論對於全國相關的立體化設施臺鐵立體化設施相關補助的標準必須要明確出來"},{"start":5140.313,"end":5158.879,"text":"就是這個必要的時候可以針對那個補貼要點做修正好那補貼要點是一個最重要的基礎那淨零碳排也是一個國際重要的趨勢那國安會也在2050年他們有定下一個目標在2050年全台灣新的建築"},{"start":5160.12,"end":5174.735,"text":"要超過85%是具有建築的這樣的一個達到經營這樣的一個目標這是國會所定下重要的目標這是我們看到內政部的研究報告在建築部門的總碳排量它是佔了37%"},{"start":5176.937,"end":5195.855,"text":"使用階段的碳排放量佔了大概28%那新建及修繕拆除階段大概佔了9%那工程會的統計我們2023年工程採購大概是8300億元那公共工程佔了全國的碳排總排放量佔了9.78%"},{"start":5198.337,"end":5224.519,"text":"大概是有2700萬噸的二氧化碳的一個排放那我們針對國安會的這種2050年的這種碳排的一個總目標我們公共工程針對公共工程的碳排放量減量有沒有什麼具體的時程及規劃來主任說一下我們的做法具體的做法是這樣第一個就是在設計階段就能夠選用這個碳排比較"},{"start":5225.66,"end":5225.8,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5248.388,"end":5269.51,"text":"那我們剛才講的說不管建立碳排系數的資料庫估算系統能夠提供給將來的設計者能夠在設計階段就考量碳排放的這樣的的計算另外在整個工程預算裡面都會編列整個盤查的費用好主委這個營建類啊他的碳排啊"},{"start":5270.17,"end":5298.089,"text":"對於淨零的這樣碳排放的目標它其實影響是非常大的那我們看到公共工程部分的淨零政策大概是有兩類第一個就是公共工程預估的碳排放是要強制填爆這個沒有填爆就沒有辦法投標是屬於強制性的另外一種是財務類的採購是鼓勵業者他的一個自願的填爆"},{"start":5298.689,"end":5321.862,"text":"那我們先來看看強制性的這種公共工程預估碳排放的一個強制填爆這個部分那這個部分主委我們每年大概要有3萬件左右是要來強制性的這樣的一個填爆但是填爆的這個如何填爆以及填爆的數字"},{"start":5323.584,"end":5350.074,"text":"沒有明確的一個標準而且也沒有一個合對的一個機制是不是這樣來主委等一下說明一下我想這個整個要達到淨零碳排的目標我們還在努力階段所以國會主責那一切幾乎是從頭開始我剛才講為什麼要收集排放係數怎麼計算讓填爆者他還比較有所依據要有依據"},{"start":5351.654,"end":5375.043,"text":"但目前是沒有依據沒有標準也沒有一種來查核的一個這樣的機制有的廠商是有有的廠商比方說生產水泥的生產鋼筋的或是生產一些所以這就有問題了有的廠商他是誠實的去申報有的他是高報有的是低報我們對於這樣的一個標準沒有辦法建立出來以及如何查核這個請主委來再做一個詳細的"},{"start":5378.844,"end":5407.105,"text":"另外我們來看看國際的做法國際的做法按照聯合國的標準大概是國際的標準是有三種第一個它有三種範疇第一個是生產過程中的直接排放第二個範疇是所使用電力的間接排放或是能源的間接排放第三種是向下油間產生的間接的排放那其實在聯合國或是國際標準第一類第二類大概都有做"},{"start":5408.473,"end":5408.813,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5421.54,"end":5440.374,"text":"臺灣還沒有這個部分我們要怎麼去符合聯合國這樣的一個發展的趨勢這樣標準的規範臺灣當然可以來參考國際的做法不過我們就要求申報碳排總量或相關的要求希望一開始是針對大量的大戶碳排大戶"},{"start":5441.135,"end":5441.395,"text":"財務類的志願填報"},{"start":5463.399,"end":5479.749,"text":"目前大概是1100種左右的這樣的一個產品那我們對於這種啊有沒有相對的運用啊來說明一下這種資料庫的建立來說明一下這個就是碳排係數啦所以我們有的是從水利署來的有的是從原廠商來的"},{"start":5481.15,"end":5501.848,"text":"這些碳排系數是單項東西每單元它的碳排放量相當當量那將來呢夠多的時候每個機關在設計的時候就可以運用這個來計算那我們再加上一個估算系統就好像我們在計算整個建築整個工程的成本費用一樣輸入那個系統就可以估算整個碳排總量"},{"start":5503.69,"end":5514.017,"text":"這兩個工具要建制完成好我們產品的類型還是要依照功能性以及相似性來進行分類那依照功能性及排放量來製作清單"},{"start":5515.219,"end":5543.129,"text":"更要對清單定期通知各部會來進行相關的公告那最後一個問題我請教主委我們碳費開徵會不會影響建築的一個原料那8月29號環境部預告碳費的三指法針對碳排放要進行收費那大概環境部是希望能夠在10月底之前能夠都順利的通過這個碳費三指法那我們針對"},{"start":5546.911,"end":5555.476,"text":"這種預計每噸的二氧化碳大概要收費300到500元那2030年會再調升1200元到1800那依據統計營造的原料成本約佔房價的15%到35%那其中鋼鐵金屬的這些建築的組件大概佔了21%那水泥及其製品佔了大概10%"},{"start":5571.624,"end":5571.824,"text":"工程會．"},{"start":5592.441,"end":5611.895,"text":"每個月都會有相關的匯報,針對建築材料,包括砂石、水泥、鋼琴的價格都有一定的掌控所以我們如果說因為徵收碳費,這些相關製品如果說不合理的調帳,我想工程會會依職權來協調"},{"start":5616.578,"end":5617.018,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":5636.027,"end":5636.487,"text":"李崑哲委員質詢"},{"start":5664.704,"end":5667.207,"text":"接下來邀請何新淳委員質詢謝謝趙委﹖我們請﹖我們鄭委也是我們主委邀請我們陳金德主委"},{"start":5685.118,"end":5701.21,"text":"委員長早 主委長首先先要感謝你這個非常積極的就到台中去視察那希望能夠幫助台中的這個捷運這個工程那因為那一天大家都要選召委沒有辦法去但是我還是很感謝"},{"start":5701.991,"end":5730.263,"text":"因為呢我們捷運現在臺中只有一條綠線那市民呢因應的期盼這個捷運藍線還有橘線還有紫線還有更多條線希望所有的路網可以盡速的來動工可以來用最快的其實要用最快大概要等10年都希望趕快盡早的有成立一個路網那我自己呢之前在上一個會期交通委員會的時候也有召開一個考察就是希望能夠的就"},{"start":5732.124,"end":5744.911,"text":"現行的藍線要動工之前那我們之前來不及參與既然已經決定了那後面我們可以參與的時候那中央可以怎麼樣來協助解決我剛剛現在圖面上這個是藍線我們現在在局線的交會點的這個臺中車站的那一個地方"},{"start":5751.114,"end":5751.234,"text":"那一天"},{"start":5770.146,"end":5785.491,"text":"去現場看的就是邀請了相關的專家委員去現場就基本設計的內容就先看當然現在有些修正我想近日之內這個基本設計就會完成核定我剛剛提到的那個基本設計對不起因為我剛剛提到的那個點是因為藍線的基本設計我們來不及參與"},{"start":5791.673,"end":5819.676,"text":"但是未來的局限的設計我們可以趕得及來參與那現在在這個轉成的動線只是其中一個點這是一個點接下來我知道主委去這個視察的時候有提到現在我們捷運藍線還有可能未來第一個施工周邊的交通交尾的計畫的問題還有高架橋要跨越大甲斷層的問題"},{"start":5821.397,"end":5846.53,"text":"冰海海線地區抗強風的一個問題淺頓的隧道的穿越河流的技術問題那當然還有其他的交通設施工程問題那我剛剛講的那一點是因為我們也在提捷運藍線要延伸到我的選區屯區那如果有延伸的話那跟局限的交匯點就在剛剛我講的臺中車站那附近所以我才希望說"},{"start":5847.671,"end":5867.992,"text":"藉著中央跟專家學者的經驗可以有效率的協助跟審議主委這方面你去視察的時候這幾個點你的意見聽到專家學者意見是什麼這個就是我們當天專家學者提醒的這個藍線的捷運算是台灣是最蠻複雜或困難的工程"},{"start":5871.134,"end":5893.489,"text":"臺中港道市區裡面的臺灣大道也是繁忙的整個交通非常繁忙的路線那也要經過這個有一些橋樑甚至要做兩層的經過斷層所以我們基本設計的部分會根據專家學者的建議做修正"},{"start":5896.011,"end":5914.431,"text":"整個來協助藍線能夠我們是希望更有效率的修正當然現在正在修正當中但是我們希望專家學者給的這個經驗還有意見是真正的可以第一個有效率第二個是真正符合臺中市的地形地貌跟地形所有的這樣子當然這個工程專業我就交給我們工程會的專家學者"},{"start":5916.673,"end":5916.813,"text":"主席"},{"start":5934.629,"end":5949.665,"text":"關心淨零碳排淨零轉型尤其我們8月8號國家氣候變遷對策委員會成立的第一次會議就在談到我們公共採購是不是如何來促進淨零轉型那這個部分就剛剛很多人在講的我在5月29號也曾經質詢過"},{"start":5953.689,"end":5980.52,"text":"就是說我們對於未來公共工程要帶頭減碳要怎麼雙贏利多所以我那時候要求建立碳排資料庫第二個要明定減碳的基準值第三輔導產業碳排的認證你知道嗎主委我要提醒你我們的團隊實在是你知道嗎左邊黃色這一個塊就是你們回文給我的我覺得回文的很沒有禮貌而且很不切實際而且很沒有內容"},{"start":5981.46,"end":6004.854,"text":"短期工具指引看盤講廢話中期目標給我階段性目標這不是廢話嗎長期監理這是你們6月份回覆的未來請回覆本席的公文的時候可不可以更針對要點跟你們要做的工作內容跟時程好好的給我回覆好不好"},{"start":6005.394,"end":6030.977,"text":"主委可以嗎這個大家那麼關心的事情你們怎麼會這麼的敷衍呢好接下來我就要問了我們現在要建立碳排資料庫我贊成我也支持工程會但是第一個環境部認不認我們未來的碳排資料庫裡面的減碳的係數計算目前有跟環境部協調過他認不認帳"},{"start":6034.036,"end":6062.389,"text":"可以作為未來探費收取的依據嗎我們這個是探牌係數希望是收集起來希望提供給在做設計的時候在做探盤查的時候來使用可是剛剛主委你在回答其他委員的時候你有說我們探牌資料庫成立建立了之後我們還會建立一個試算系統估算系統估算系統好好叫估算系統"},{"start":6063.871,"end":6082.601,"text":"那很多的公共工程從設計的時候就引用你們的估算系統來做那這個係數我還質疑第一個你們說現在513項的第三方驗證這第三方驗證又是哪裡來的驗證是我們現在經濟部標檢局公告的那17家機構驗證的嗎"},{"start":6086.926,"end":6107.401,"text":"未來這個驗證獲得這個係數的計算我再確定一次環境部有確認過嗎他未來認不認我跟委員報告如果說環境部要依據碳排來收集碳費那這個是向人民收集碳費他應該在他的相關法律裡面去訂定標準"},{"start":6108.622,"end":6120.47,"text":"不對囉那主委那這個碳排資料庫如果你做這樣的切割的話那你又告訴各公共工程的所有的設計開始就要把工程的每一個環節的這個碳係數都要估算出來"},{"start":6123.852,"end":6148.998,"text":"那估算出來之後很多人都會認為說這是政府給我的資料庫我依據這個政府的資料庫我來做這個這個碳的係數的一個計算計算的時候我可以掌握說我這個公共工程可能可以減碳多少那未來呢我在跟政府因為環境部對人民來講叫做政府那環境部也是政府機關那我在跟環境部申報"},{"start":6150.981,"end":6152.562,"text":"主委我現在就在提醒你啦你看喔再回到剛剛上個夜"},{"start":6180.18,"end":6185.911,"text":"你光是現在第一個碳排資料庫的建立才不到一半因為還有589項還沒有驗證都還沒有另外第三方驗證"},{"start":6194.366,"end":6218.753,"text":"513項的第三方驗證到底算不算數是不是經濟部公告的17家驗證單位來驗證的我也不知道未來還沒有驗證的589項要不要經過現在經濟部已經公布的那17家的驗證單位的驗證才算數這個你還沒有對外說清楚這第一點第二點我為什麼要這樣子"},{"start":6220.066,"end":6239.993,"text":"要求你們提醒你們因為呢如果你們建立了這個碳排資料庫僅止於像竹蔚你剛剛講的只是讓設計階段的工程人員也好設計單位的人員也好來做這一項公共工程的一個碳係數的參考的話"},{"start":6242.506,"end":6260.363,"text":"那這個參考有用嗎?我不知道因為這會牽涉到後端未來這個公共工程他們在核報環境部所謂的要去檢視他的碳量啊要需不需要繳碳費啊那能不能作為一個依據"},{"start":6262.305,"end":6277.9,"text":"這個會引起國人很大的疑慮喔第二個如果在這個方面剛剛主委跟我講說沒有這只是一個參考不是依據那請你要提醒環境部你剛剛跟我講喔環境部現在資料很少"},{"start":6279.002,"end":6279.182,"text":"我們看碳排"},{"start":6297.799,"end":6319.233,"text":"大戶有的是發電廠或者是煉油廠他那個碳是大戶那我們這個公共工程當然量很大啦但是因為他的單每個鋼筋或泥土那個很大那我的意思是說我們這個是設計設計他是廠商設計者可以選擇的我要用A原料或B原料"},{"start":6319.753,"end":6320.554,"text":"這個也有環境部決定"},{"start":6333.118,"end":6349.852,"text":"所以你現在這樣子講就是說到目前為止你跟環境部就這一個事情上面都還沒有討論過環境部他也可以訂定相關標準是根據什麼標準來收費那環境部要不要依據你的這個計算的這個系統來做看資料庫來做這個依據這還是環境部來決定"},{"start":6354.284,"end":6358.548,"text":"我相信環境部會訂定一個依據啦那環境部有這樣的專業啦那目前我們是起步階段趕快收集這些坦白說環境部"},{"start":6376.944,"end":6394.934,"text":"環境部有這樣的專業我跟你講主委到最後環境部還是會來找公共工程委員會啦公共工程誰管的你管的啊好啦我們跟環境部密切來不是環境部他可以知道說公共工程的這個碳排怎麼計算然後呢應該訂什麼基準啊這個基準訂了之後如果這個公共工程超過了我要怎麼收取"},{"start":6405.042,"end":6427.008,"text":"這個我相信他會來問你啦主委我是提醒啦因為現在是你講的針對大戶啦所以我不知道這個大戶的定義是什麼啦那今年10月要上路上路之後呢我們的公共工程的大戶又是怎麼定義我也不知道我現在是我是門外漢"},{"start":6428.268,"end":6445.288,"text":"但是我相信國人跟很多的基層的這些工程廠商大概跟我一樣因為他可能也沒有讀過什麼專業的書啦所以他會跟我一樣問說如果公共工程委員會都沒有辦法回答我了那我怎麼辦我怎麼辦 主委"},{"start":6450.445,"end":6477.063,"text":"我們會跟環境部來協調一個方式他將來可以那未來好了我只要再等三年五年後你總是要做嘛三年五年後你說我們所有的公共工程都要減碳然後呢要可能未來會牽涉到碳費的收取那你總是要一個計算基準嘛這個基準到底是誰定啊阿你說環境部定阿環境部他了解公共工程嗎"},{"start":6483.067,"end":6494.953,"text":"公共工程的這個攤費的收取標準怎麼辦主委那當然目前來看是你現在是做指引我知道啦我們是現階段做指引啦"},{"start":6495.749,"end":6522.175,"text":"環境部如果根據工程會這個資料庫來做修正是比較快速的方法對嘛我想當然了嘛大家認為這個專業是在公共工程委員會嘛所以我就來問你的意見嘛那環境部自己本身沒有公共工程的相關的專家或者是相關的制定的一個依據的時候他來詢問公共工程委員會那我們委員會的這個碳排的資料庫會不會成為是一個依據的標準"},{"start":6523.535,"end":6538.18,"text":"會不會我不知道現在你跟我講不是那未來會不會如果未來會的話那回到我剛剛在提醒你的喔如果未來會的話你的這個整個的第三方驗證"},{"start":6539.773,"end":6561.243,"text":"到底算不算數再來跟國際接軌到底有沒有接軌算不算數那未來你還有589項是完全還沒有驗證的那你要如何進行如何跟國際法規接軌我只是提醒未來是還很多要做所以拜託這個實際上的問題"},{"start":6564.605,"end":6565.766,"text":"何欣淳委員質詢"},{"start":6587.137,"end":6597.308,"text":"接下來邀請廖先祥委員質詢在這邊先再預告一下就是我們等一下在魯明哲召委質詢之後休息10分鐘謝謝好謝謝召委請我們陳主委請陳金德主委我們環境部部長我們來"},{"start":6610.595,"end":6617.68,"text":"今天大家都非常在關心淨零碳排當然政府常常會提一些比較遠的、比較宏觀的一個目標比如說R1100、2050淨零碳排我們工程會也訂定了一個目標"},{"start":6637.012,"end":6661.395,"text":"就是2030年碳減目標定為2005年至少減大概25%正負1%嘛這是我們定的目標嘛對不對這是國發會這是國發會定的目標那我們工程會有沒有自己定的目標工程會因為不是這個業務的主管機關但是因為公共工程的碳排在將近10%不然如果說這個不是我們的那個業務的話我們今天要討論什麼"},{"start":6662.256,"end":6680.957,"text":"因為我們在公共工程的基本設計的審查是屬於公共工程會的業務所以我們在審查階段或者是所以你們只負責統計而已是不是你們不設定目標我們當然可以審查他的基本設計包括金之獎的頒發等等可以用這些工具呢讓整個公共工程能夠減少碳排"},{"start":6681.823,"end":6698.629,"text":"我們也努力在公共工程的部分來減少碳排減少碳排是不是我們工程會的目標還是我們只是做一個統計的一個業務而已就公共工程的減碳當然工程會要負責是我們的目標嗎對對那所以你們有沒有設定辭職的目標"},{"start":6700.369,"end":6727.491,"text":"這個部分很難去設定說多少人要減少多少因為公共工程他問題是我們政府就已經明定2050淨零碳排啊因為公共工程會增加會有減少各個每年公共工程預算各個部會一定都要訂立自己的目標嘛當然我們工程會可能我們實體的工程不是我們工程會在做嘛所以你們也有要求各部會15個部會要提出來這個減碳的一個相關的"},{"start":6729.059,"end":6755.95,"text":"報告委員就是說公共工程它每年在增加在變化所以我們沒有辦法具體說明年後年要減少多少碳排沒有辦法但是我們可以要求各機關在他們推動公共工程的時候比方說依據工程會提供的工具來做這個碳排在基本設計的時候做這個減碳的這樣的設計"},{"start":6758.931,"end":6759.471,"text":"是這樣的意思啊"},{"start":6779.816,"end":6803.319,"text":"我們是一個督導的單位我們當然期許各個招標機關要有一個減碳的措施那剛剛主委有提到很多設計階段的時候的碳排係數那如果說我們只是訂定一個碳排的係數那好像就只是在簡單做一個統計的工具而已吧目前看起來是這樣"},{"start":6804.6,"end":6817.97,"text":"因為碳排係數比方說鋼筋什麼樣的鋼筋他每噸或每公斤排碳多少那叫碳排係數那你這個假工程用了多少這個產品你可以計算這個工程的排碳多少"},{"start":6819.5,"end":6833.193,"text":"他作為設計的依據他作為他設計的依據他整個可以算出他這個工程完成之後排了多少碳那需要減多少碳那就是要設定一個目標嗎"},{"start":6836.633,"end":6858.411,"text":"不是 是吧 問題就只是給他一個說你這個水泥的碳排的單位是多少 鋼筋的單位是多少然後設計單位去把它設計出來 然後告訴我這個總體的公共工程的碳排是多少比方說他也可以用一些再生料源 是這些比較低碳的這個 對其實就剛剛很多委員在質詢的時候啦"},{"start":6859.372,"end":6873.144,"text":"就很單純的感受到我們公共工程委員會並沒有去訂定相關的一些目標或是您說的這個碳排係數逐年是不是要調降這件事情"},{"start":6874.5,"end":6898.505,"text":"我們會去訂定碳排係數我們不要講到那麼大的一個公共工程我們單純只單項水泥鋼筋的碳排係數我們會不會去設定目標每年去把它調降這個碳排係數跟他的生產工法有關是他的工法是什麼樣的工法如果固定的工法他的那個碳排係數會對啊那那那那他跟我說是固定工法是固定的碳排係數"},{"start":6899.645,"end":6900.186,"text":"每單位每單位"},{"start":6909.471,"end":6937.66,"text":"原料他排了多少碳所以這個是固定的對啊固定的阿所以他要不要如果是固定的話我們減什麼碳他可以不選擇高排高排排碳係數比較高的產品用一些比較低甚至喔我們在討論碳排係數的時候啦每一家廠商到時候因為有碳稅的問題所以每一家廠商的碳排氣數實務上都會不一樣對不對不會碳排氣數是固定的只是他用了多少量"},{"start":6939.059,"end":6953.579,"text":"如果說每一家的碳排氣數都是固定的每個產品每個產品的碳排氣數是固定的那減什麼碳那我們個別廠商為什麼要去買為什麼要去買碳稅為什麼要繳碳稅每家廠商碳排氣數是固定的"},{"start":6955.188,"end":6983.586,"text":"所謂係數是單位產品的排放量他用了一千噸一萬噸所以整個不同的工程排的就不一樣那排的量牽涉到他要繳多少碳費我們單純就講個別產品嘛對不對我們就單純講水泥就好了嘛每一家水泥公司他到時候因為經濟部或是環境部他會有相關的碳碳稅對不對或碳費每一家廠商要去做碳盤查所以每一家他會去"},{"start":6984.983,"end":7011.629,"text":"查核就是剛剛核心從委員講的經濟部有10多家廠商會去查每一家廠商你每生產每單位的原料的時候你會生產多少的碳對不對那如果說你超過標準的話那你是要去買綠電還是你去買碳稅等等的所以每一家的每一家廠商的這個碳排氣數會是不一樣的但是我們如果說在公共工程委員會所訂定的碳排氣數都是固定的話"},{"start":7016.235,"end":7039.805,"text":"生產出來的水泥用在公共工程那比方說甲種甲類的水泥他當排放係數多少每公斤多少他用了多少這是一個碳排係數就水泥廠本身他在生產水泥的過程當中用多少燃料這些燃料排了多少碳才是這一家水泥廠他的排碳對所以每一家都會不一樣對不對那當然那跟他生產的量不一樣啊"},{"start":7040.205,"end":7050.557,"text":"每一家都會不一樣 也會因為它的製程也會有所不一樣對不對就是它產生了多少量 產生多少量 固定量每申請一公噸 它所產生的碳排都會不一樣"},{"start":7052.389,"end":7081.773,"text":"是吧不然為什麼我們要優化為什麼要優化我們的產線為什麼我們經濟部要去補助廠商去做生產線的優化減碳的優化如果說你每一個碳排氣數都固定的話那為什麼廠商要來做優化產生的水泥那我們就會算出這種水泥每單位每公里我認為你這樣子的問題你這樣子的計算方式有很大的問題我真的這樣計算以後會產生很大的問題就像剛剛何清純委員講的你一個國家要有兩套制度你倒是要走"},{"start":7082.314,"end":7085.952,"text":"走經濟部環境部還是我們公共工程委員會的一個計算方式"},{"start":7089.972,"end":7111.238,"text":"每一個部會每一個中央部會訂定的方式都不一樣那廠商怎麼依選目前只有公共工程委員會在收集這些資料當然有些機關也有比如說水利他也有在收集我覺得最基本的每一個部會所認定的碳排的係數碳排的數量一定都是由一樣的國家的認證的單位"},{"start":7113.793,"end":7129.704,"text":"同樣檢驗的合可的單位去做盤查我們最重要的是去做目標的訂定而不是單純去做一個統計的數字我們為了去做一個目標的訂定廠商才有去做檢探的一個動力"},{"start":7131.346,"end":7151.167,"text":"我們會把這個碳排係數更加的檢視啦跟其他第三方共同來好不好不要單純就是只是一個統計而已不是一個統計而已我希望我們的公共工程會會去定一個實際的目標依據2050我們國家淨零碳排的一個目標我們逐年希望"},{"start":7152.168,"end":7166.978,"text":"我不要講總體因為總體可能會因為我們公共工程發報的多寡會影響到我們排放的多寡而是我們的每一個公共工程裡面你剛剛講的碳排係數我們去做一個逐年的去把它去做調降"},{"start":7167.839,"end":7194.786,"text":"那廠商他才有動力去做他產線的優化或者是去做一個淨泥碳排的一個目標一起來配合國家的政策我們才能做到實質的一個從最基本的每一個公共工程的單項去做要求你每個單項都去要求的時候你總體的部分你當然就會下降好不好以上麻煩主委啦謝謝我剛剛就講了其實跟剛剛很多委員講的都是類似的好不好希望我們去設定一個目標而不是只是一個統計而已好不好謝謝"},{"start":7197.276,"end":7198.677,"text":"有請我們工程會陳主委陳主委"},{"start":7228.828,"end":7234.257,"text":"委員長好陳主委今天這個這就要跟你來談一下因為發覺這個淘氣公司從T3開始這一路"},{"start":7240.336,"end":7261.854,"text":"不管是風風雨雨遇到很多的困難那我發覺後面工程會後面的救火隊包括招標的過程前一任主委乾脆來主導他整個T3三航廈三航廈中間的很多的一個困難逐步去幫忙這個是我們在上一屆上一屆的一個重點"},{"start":7263.315,"end":7284.383,"text":"結果好不容易把大部分問題這個建築物的問題大致解決就又來了T3的問題解決沒有他們不嫌問題多啦所以現在T3大家要進出T3除了車子載到門口的之外在航廈之間串接的他們招標了17億"},{"start":7286.638,"end":7288.359,"text":"請問在7月份出了一個新聞說"},{"start":7317.412,"end":7330.278,"text":"自駕得標團隊得標了得標之後不到半年就準備換裡面最重要的一個部分那我在看到這個新聞我相信你應該也"},{"start":7331.921,"end":7344.213,"text":"聽到這個消息你應該更清楚但是我跟你講一般民眾擔心什麼事呢未來要蓋T3的原因是因為政府告訴我們未來這整個機場吞吐量大概是到5000萬人次"},{"start":7347.316,"end":7374.583,"text":"甚至最高的容量到8000萬人是機場公司說的嘛那你說平均給到這個的部分每一天透過我們這樣的一個接駁系統的人數是非常非常高的所以第一個不能開玩笑所以大家都期待一個我們技術是不是純熟第二個我們這個案子標出去呢那有沒有委託到一個純熟的單位民眾這樣的想法你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":7376.227,"end":7377.969,"text":"你對這個案子的了解程度如何?"},{"start":7393.067,"end":7412.417,"text":"那這個變更我想政府採購法有一定的條件必須滿足這個條件而且是他的這個機關就辦理機關應該是淘氣公司辦理機關的同意才可以那我想我能夠理解的就是政府採購法這一方面比較有嚴格的規定"},{"start":7414.07,"end":7442.795,"text":"好那這個東西不是蓋房子也簡單來講我們今天在談的一個標案如果說做個公園換個水電廠商我們知道太多人會了不敢講說幾十萬個只要幾萬個合格包商而且國家都把它分好了甚至建築你是甲級什麼級的一金二儲隨便找都有嘛可是我們在談的是我覺得現在工程會你們真的要注意很多新的"},{"start":7444.977,"end":7463.377,"text":"新的願景新的目標就擺明說今天我要換或者換不換市場上沒有幾個人會的這種東西那你要換廠商跟一般的工程換廠商是完全兩碼事喔我必須要講這新的東西為什麼大家擔心擔心的原因是說"},{"start":7464.278,"end":7464.939,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":7481.255,"end":7508.185,"text":"是所有的軌道像這樣的一個靈魂所以今天要換的是系統廠商就簡單來講我們在招標的過程來的廠商一組一組講的滿嘴泡沫泡沫經驗多少歷練多少你們放心交給我我系統廠商怎麼樣多強多棒弄完之後百分之百滿意不光是快速安全講的整片"},{"start":7509.586,"end":7530.504,"text":"那人家三個團隊啊 終於覺得青睞你了嘛因為你說的比較好 我青睞你而且中間是系統廠商的優勢是最重要的系統廠商到底可以做什麼樣的一個部分安全怎麼樣 講得特別多那你跟一個做車體的現在主標的廠商是主要做車體的"},{"start":7532.026,"end":7539.837,"text":"當然就是電動大巴那怎麼樣去動怎麼樣去接客人二三行下中間會不會有另外的行下那我是覺得"},{"start":7541.536,"end":7564.341,"text":"你這個東西不是說合不合法令的問題是說我的天吶我們精挑細選在我們採購法在工程會的一個領域我們設計的制度設計到底出了問題沒有我們花了這麼大精力上網招標也寫了這麼多的說明服務建議書然後請了這麼多的專家學者難道失靈了嗎"},{"start":7565.521,"end":7569.945,"text":"主委 其實這種新科技的產品我覺得它嚴重程度尤其這種公共運輸我覺得你覺得像這樣的做法"},{"start":7585.678,"end":7585.918,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":7606.54,"end":7632.069,"text":"針對這個案要求淘機公司那麼來說明原因我們會具體的去了解有沒有符合政府採購法他得以更換分包廠商的這樣的條件或者是會不會影響到剛才委員所說的影響到整個將來營運的這個品質因為系統廠商出問題就表示你當時提的proposal你當時服務建議書有關系統的部分其實有一部分"},{"start":7632.489,"end":7657.227,"text":"都不是真的因為廠商都換人了還要第二個來驗證你的服務建議書我們要按照服務建議書來履約那他到底是不是真的不是我寫的我跟你講這真的是一團亂但是我在這裡鄭重拜託就像T3一樣這個問題不亞於T3行下的一個建築我希望你不光是監督我希望以你們的專業去幫忙好不好去幫忙他們要來去解決這個複雜的問題為什麼呢服務建議書假設"},{"start":7661.03,"end":7686.675,"text":"是他的分包廠商在法院都有公正的他不讓他不讓然後咧你下一家要來那好你不要按照我的服務建議書這是我的喔我的know how這中間後面的一些問題第一個你會變成一個尷尬的問題T3硬體終於完工了中間串接的運輸體系差時間差很多所以這個部分我要拜託你介入一下好不好幫忙一下那第二個因為時間的關係"},{"start":7689.278,"end":7689.558,"text":"李立立委員"},{"start":7708.519,"end":7708.699,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7729.335,"end":7753.558,"text":"想一想好吧既然是實驗嘛國家總是要實驗可是這幾年看到2021年他已經進入台鐵了因為沒有人管啊我研究不出來不成功so what不重要啊我政府的錢照領啊當你一些委託或者試行這個案件我就算了你到2021開始介入台鐵多元通信的這個行控4.0啊"},{"start":7754.659,"end":7781.724,"text":"坦白講很多的交通專業的外面的學者都嚇到結果他當時說我們台灣要創新全世界第一唯一自己的一個行控安全系統發生兩次大車禍有人這樣說理論上聽起來是好事可是你的廠商呢他說我在美國某一個城市做過了這個相關的自駕什麼一個系統結果我們通過了"},{"start":7783.204,"end":7812.298,"text":"運安會去查我們透過外交部去查甚至有委員直接寫給那個城市查無此事查無此公事在台灣耀武揚威東騙西騙上了一大堆的節目好這個部分本來2021年行共4.0這只是初步的計畫也是找一貫鐵路來跑跑看花了5600多萬然後事實上後面還有非常大的計畫就被叫停了叫停了"},{"start":7812.958,"end":7824.591,"text":"今年的4月2號我們的這個運安會說他說實話他這個根本不可行啊這根本不能用啊講得很難聽啊所以我的問題點是說"},{"start":7827.659,"end":7854.246,"text":"我們的政府就算是財力很好也不能這樣的玩啊不能這樣玩他弄完之後沒事啊該領的錢走了那我們就發覺現在因為沒事嘛我就賺五千六百對扣掉成本我就賺嘛系統software比較看不太到嘛好所以我就賺了嘛那接下來賺哪一條A就賺機場三行價PMS自家系統嘛我再來賺一條嘛對不對"},{"start":7856.566,"end":7870.472,"text":"我管他這麼多現在李立又是我們剛剛講機場三行下這個自駕接駁系統的系統廠商所以我剛剛講說你可不可以換其實我很兩難"},{"start":7872.253,"end":7888.835,"text":"我希望換得到 因為這家廠商我是真的很怕所以我希望你去介入的原因是說這是一個人民的安全而且是我們國家的門面如果說在這樣的搞下去的話這是一個很大的問題"},{"start":7889.696,"end":7909.647,"text":"第二個是針對這樣的類似的廠商好像又不符合101翻了一下他到底合不合就一直做不出時機然後能不能用101條款把他能夠排除在我們用採購法為所有的工程單位第一行業去擋一下就好像"},{"start":7910.828,"end":7911.508,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7931.514,"end":7943.643,"text":"或者三個案子沒有做出實際的時候我真的希望我們工程會對這種困擾你看他現在又進去逃機了你我都可能要去做那個自駕系統"},{"start":7945.066,"end":7962.494,"text":"那萬一電池有火災怎麼辦萬一系統門不開怎麼辦我坦白講我會怕我先講我會怕很多人民也在怕所以這個的部分是不是能夠想方設法好你們在採購法第一個你們去幫忙他"},{"start":7964.455,"end":7984.436,"text":"採購法對於很多委員都問了嘛總諮詢院委員問了嘛所以這樣的一直在擦邊球我不知道廠商有問題廠商有問題不合格的廠商我們把它叫做這個渣男廠商好了奇怪可是渣男廠商也要有一個渣男吸鐵啊為什麼這些採購的單位老是"},{"start":7986.678,"end":7986.958,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8006.162,"end":8035.023,"text":"主委這樣時間到,您做個結論好不好好,針對這一類的廠商我們希望能夠建設這個廠商履歷優秀的廠商跟剛才講的渣男廠商我們都分別建立履歷供機關來做評選的時候做參考好,那請你去多幫忙淘機公司,謝謝好,謝謝魯明哲召委質詢我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8652.817,"end":8655.838,"text":"我們繼續開會接下來邀請邱若驊委員質詢謝謝主席主席凡請工程會陳主委陳主委"},{"start":8677.612,"end":8699.2,"text":"委員早主委好 主委早 主委 審計部針對112年中央政府總決算的審核報告已經在今年的7月29日公告 工程會有收到嗎應該有 但是不會簽到我這裡OK 好 那有關工程會需要加強和改進的部分 那主委您就是沒有看過了"},{"start":8702.407,"end":8706.548,"text":"政府採購法第11條第一項規定,主管機關應設立採購資訊中心,統一來收集共通性的商品和同等"},{"start":8719.312,"end":8720.033,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8736.585,"end":8736.905,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":8761.006,"end":8788.542,"text":"價格應該是我們有一個資料有一個系統就是讓這個招標的這個機關那麼他們在要抓這個預算的時候這個工程大概預算是多少那工程會有一個基本的價格跟一個估算系統主要是提供給各辦理公共工程採購機關作為參考的依據是有這樣的一個估價系統也有單項的這個價格"},{"start":8791.364,"end":8802.627,"text":"我們審計部的報告指出資料庫沒有提供決標價格對應標筆資訊還有底價的價格那請問主委那缺乏標筆資訊還有底價金額的資料庫有助於我們各機關來做參考嗎決標應該有政府採購法我們的電子採購網決標的廠商金額都是屬於應該公告的項目這個都有公告所以不會沒有收集"},{"start":8818.439,"end":8818.679,"text":"這個要不要底價是來"},{"start":8834.153,"end":8834.873,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8849.321,"end":8854.903,"text":"本席想就叫主委有關我們傳輸價格資料編碼正確率過低通常他的流程是價格資料上傳然後供向編碼解析然後再來公佈我們價格的資料"},{"start":8875.069,"end":8876.19,"text":"這部分我請主委來回答"},{"start":8900.689,"end":8920.348,"text":"有關於編碼的正確性因為在公共工程的編碼會比較細所以我們現在希望就是我們會朝向就是說把這個各個編碼的要求的內涵再把它講精確一點希望各個機關能夠正確的了解這個編碼的內容然後提升它的正確率"},{"start":8920.708,"end":8920.828,"text":"具體的規劃．"},{"start":8937.288,"end":8964.231,"text":"具體的說明只要像這種正確率低於40%我們每個機關都會把它每個月都會喊文請他們要注意要提高這個正確率然後我們在年底的時候也會統一就正確率比較低的機關會特別把它列出來然後在整個中央單位都會提醒再說一次是"},{"start":8964.811,"end":8988.019,"text":"我們工程會這邊會補穿我們的價格資料庫嗎?並且納入將督導納入考核的績效嗎?我們會納進去會提供給我們的集合小組還有我們的經建會在預算上面的控管目前的正確率只有一半那有沒有計畫說要提升正確率?"},{"start":8991.449,"end":8991.629,"text":"主席"},{"start":9008.553,"end":9034.619,"text":"那主委這邊想要這邊就是拜託主委那我們這邊110年至今5000萬以上的公共建設案曾經流包的件數均於70%以上那代表重大工程招標過程中有很多難處導致流標那招標的機關還要需要修改招標相關規定之後再跑一次流程那導致時間延擋影響工程進行"},{"start":9035.479,"end":9060.556,"text":"那目前我們桃園規劃中的重大交通建設在捷運的部分有山陰線延伸八德然後還有我們桃園的捷運綠線中線高速公路的部分有八德交流道還有中路交流道那本席希望工程會能夠來積極協助以上的我們的交通建設招標作業那降低流標的可能性順利的讓我們這些重大的工程可以順利招標那請問主委可以承諾本席嗎"},{"start":9060.896,"end":9083.005,"text":"好 這個都是桃園市的相當重要的軌道工程還有道路工程那金額也都很龐大那必要的時候我們工程會會來跟招標單位有的是桃園市政府那麼就合約怎麼修改或者是是不是要有物條等等來進一步來協助讓他順利能夠決標好 謝謝主委以上"},{"start":9090.231,"end":9096.293,"text":"謝謝邱若驊委員質詢接下來邀請蔡奇商委員質詢謝謝主席請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":9120.882,"end":9144.716,"text":"好委員長主委早主委我看了一下那個我們工程會對於列管活化閒置公共設施的這個列管量我看了一下好像這幾年列管的數字108年22件109年17件然後到最近好像都只有9件"},{"start":9146.319,"end":9175.331,"text":"我不知道這個列管只有9件這個數字減少但是我們這個列管就是說我們把列管的件數減少但現在活化的狀況的好壞工程會不知道有沒有去處理這個事情也就是說我這樣舉例好了台中市的這個以台中市而言我們花了八十幾億辦那個花博"},{"start":9176.513,"end":9201.432,"text":"阿花博齁所留下來的場館那在不在現在的列館範圍列館的這個酒店裡面算嗎你們這個酒店含不含台中的花博的留下來場館報告委員這個花博的部分沒有包括在這個酒店是他已經不在列館了是對好來那我舉一些媒體的報導的案例齁來你看齁這個"},{"start":9210.13,"end":9230.301,"text":"這個當然不是最近的新聞這是4月份的新聞花博所留下來以花舞館來講到現在還是蚊子館就是說花博花了八十幾億可是除了部分"},{"start":9231.451,"end":9255.572,"text":"列為公園就是他還是做公園使用這個我本席沒話說但我們蓋的那些場館放到今天我就沒有看到一個案子是成功的就是對工程會你們沒有列館那沒有列館呢他還是蚊子館或者甚至他現在已經委外但是成效很差"},{"start":9257.483,"end":9267.949,"text":"很差啦這個好像也沒有什麼中央對工程會來講好像也沒有列入什麼樣的這個考核機制主委是這樣嗎"},{"start":9271.499,"end":9290.753,"text":"閒置空間的列管是工程會被指派的項目之一那因為全國這個閒置的公共設施的確是有很大的問題那數目數量非常龐大 比方說因為少子化的關係你光學校"},{"start":9292.595,"end":9316.996,"text":"每個國中小高中職啊數量非常龐大所以我才會對列管有一點質疑為什麼列管只有九件這個列管可能是針對比方有人反應或者是特殊真的是完全是變成文資管的需要活化的這部分我們來改進啦真正的列管應該不只是對我的意思是我看到這個九件我嚇一跳欸閒置的一定是很多啦"},{"start":9318.799,"end":9335.478,"text":"副主委沒關係你可以講你可以直接補充沒問題我不一定要叫主委講沒問題好謝謝委員謝謝主席那主要是我們的清查大概是跟我們的品管公共工程品質品管一樣都是三級品管制三級清查那第一個當然就是設施管理機關他自己要主動清查"},{"start":9336.9,"end":9360.416,"text":"那接下來就是那個主管機關要主動抽查那我們工程會這邊負責大概就是所謂的那個全國的本會的抽查那不過委員關心的這件案子我想這個我們本會會把他列入來去再進一步去了解這個案子目前的處理狀況因為台中這個花博還被監察院110年還是要檢查還是要審計處啦還要審計處糾正所以主委我同意你剛剛的講法"},{"start":9361.437,"end":9364.159,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":9392.75,"end":9404.229,"text":"這個公設室的主管機關或他上級主管機關稽查的請他們詳時再回報到工程委員這個我們中央一定要有列管為什麼因為這涉及到後面會有很多的問題第一個"},{"start":9406.365,"end":9407.465,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9422.406,"end":9446.261,"text":"又跟中央不斷的要錢來蓋新的建築物那這個形成我們資源的浪費我們等一下我還要關注那個減碳的問題你看這個都是對減碳來講都是殺手也是對國家預算這個非常的浪費所以活化如果中央我們在補助跟他的活化績效兩者之間我們一定要取得一個勾肌"},{"start":9447.422,"end":9458.001,"text":"不然我們沒有人管我們列管這九項我要表示這地方政府幾乎都沒有蚊子管所以其實不是這樣主委剛剛你也補充了我也覺得嚇一跳我想你也嚇一跳所以我們應該對於列管"},{"start":9461.035,"end":9485.629,"text":"我督促你你現在還有多少是蚊子管你要趕快去做以後你要送上來你要申請其他的管轍我會告訴你說你先從你的列管的我列管然後你要去執行的這些蚊子管裡面哪一些是可以優先來使用委員這個建議非常好應該這樣來做就合理了就該地方政府它本身還有多少餘量"},{"start":9486.689,"end":9506.3,"text":"我跟主委報告我對這個老舊建築的改建或老舊建築的活化我很有興趣我只隨便因為時間有限你看那個日本這個都是廢棄學校改建的旅館你看到這個你會覺得這個可能不知道等級是五星級還是六星級這是學校 這個都是學校改建"},{"start":9508.11,"end":9534.703,"text":"這個都是學校去改建的旅館你不要去到很遠就隔壁的日本他就很多這種案例那我的意思就是說齁我長期在關但我從來沒有我沒有特別印象說台灣哪一個活化很成功的案例然後讓台灣變成這個案例變成焦點或者變成典範可以讓其他縣市來觀摩考察學習"},{"start":9536.241,"end":9537.141,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":9549.488,"end":9565.558,"text":"行政院要求你們要列管這些嘛那到底我們的問題為什麼我們的活化上面都做的沒有比人家那麼好人家可以把它活化還賺錢對不對啊我們為什麼不行是涉及法規的問題還是地方政府怎麼樣所以我們棍棒蘿蔔"},{"start":9567.179,"end":9582.684,"text":"棍棒就是他做不好我就不給你我不應該再繼續放任你蚊子管一直蓋嘛那你做得好我應該想辦法來協助你補助你從經費到法規的這個鬆綁那到底哪一些法規讓我們的活化面臨到障礙"},{"start":9583.919,"end":9606.657,"text":"所以我覺得工程會都應該來盤點這些事情我們可以針對這些閒置設施的活化也單獨訂定相關的範本或指引好 這個我想我們在交通委員會還有很多時間這個是本席今天先起個頭希望未來我們還可以持續來追蹤所有的那特別像台中"},{"start":9607.358,"end":9623.756,"text":"像這個那麼大八十幾億的花博當時辦的時候林佳龍市長辦的時候是風風光光的大家也都很讚嘆可是事後這個市長換人了然後今天的花博的留下來長管變成什麼樣可怕的樣子"},{"start":9624.497,"end":9644.849,"text":"我覺得主委你除了到台中看看這個捷運藍線之外也應該去看看這個這個是指標性的這個不是一個小小的一個你說學校廢校然後放在那裡這不是這個是曾經轟動一時的花博所以這個應該這個工程會要好好的去監督一下台中市政府"},{"start":9647.011,"end":9674.151,"text":"那接下來我還有一點點時間我想那個檢探的部分我看今天主委也特別在報告當中也去提出來就是那個淨零轉型落實公共建設的淨零轉型跟永續台灣那我看了一下大概我本來今天準備資料要來問但是時間的關係已經差不多了所以我留一點但是我有一個建議給主委你看你看這個報告裡面"},{"start":9676.055,"end":9705.02,"text":"我從我們的這個我們公共工程委員會永續發展目標志願檢視報告其實志願檢視報告我們要做哪一些項目目標在哪裡其實在你的簡報當中在你今天的簡報當中有出現可是這問題最大在哪裡主委問題最大在於幾乎每一個項目我們都沒有KPI啦就是說我們都說有我們現在正在做"},{"start":9706.032,"end":9733.152,"text":"他到底要做到哪裡叫做做2050淨零碳牌是從蔡總統開始他就很明確壓了一個時間叫2050所以行政院下面開始把各個部會你們減碳的路徑然後2020要達到多什麼2030要達到什麼我們是有清楚的數據我隨便舉一個例子就好了你看你們的目標12"},{"start":9735.199,"end":9737.381,"text":"目標122020的目標政府機關綠色採購比率要達業務費預算之2.8到2030要達到3.5這個應該是你們自己列的那我檢視今天的標準裡面"},{"start":9752.625,"end":9777.475,"text":"我檢視今天的報告沒有一個沒有報告內容沒有清楚的去說明那2.8達到了沒今年已經2024了啊所以你目標是2020是要是要2.8那達到了沒那2030馬上就到了目標是3.5啊這個做到了沒所以我的意思是說寫這些我都沒有意見啊但是"},{"start":9779.314,"end":9784.054,"text":"立法院要來監督公共工程委員會到底有沒有落實這個可能是參考環境部的"},{"start":9785.766,"end":9795.053,"text":"對目標啦對對對那沒關係就是工程會我們也自己做志願檢視報告嘛志願檢視報告我們一定有列出目標啦有目標我們就要有達成要怎麼達成這個目標我2025要到哪裡2030要到哪裡這樣我們才可以要求主委你也可以要求我們工程會當年要怎麼去把這件事達成"},{"start":9811.084,"end":9835.841,"text":"所以對我們來說2050的淨零碳牌那個不是早期我們道德訴求說我們要對地球比較好大家發揮良心發揮道德這不是這是人類的自救行動這也是民進黨執政底下我們的總統跟行政院定的目標所以應該變成一個迫切的危機它也是一個迫切有方向性有數字性的"},{"start":9838.09,"end":9838.67,"text":"蔡奇昌委員質詢"},{"start":9872.517,"end":9873.117,"text":"林國成主席陳主委"},{"start":9892.794,"end":9918.541,"text":"我想因為我們今天我們立法院同仁一直談這個減碳未來碳匯的這些問題所以本席就不再贅述但是有一點我必須要提醒主委這不是只有衛福部的問題這個到最後那個環境部他訂出來的一個標準"},{"start":9919.987,"end":9931.353,"text":"我們主管所有的合約規範是要在這裡有所約束所以我要提醒主委在這個部分特別提醒主委"},{"start":9932.435,"end":9958.917,"text":"不要把它當成非你的業務到最後因為我們所有公共工程的所有合約規範一定在這個部分是要放下去依照什麼東西所以這個你要責成你的這些規範合約的單位要趕快去做研究所以這個我特別要提醒主委一下"},{"start":9960.063,"end":9966.26,"text":"那另外我還是老話一句因為我非常關心勞工薪資"},{"start":9968.046,"end":9968.326,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":9992.789,"end":10013.164,"text":"這個部分他的強制規定現在到底我們在整個合約規範當中定的執行如何那修改的如何主委這個部分你可以不可以告訴本席我請處長來回答好可以來處長"},{"start":10015.948,"end":10023.601,"text":"報告委員有關派駐勞工的這個薪資證明已經在我們勞務契約範本裡面列為廠商請款要提出來的單據"},{"start":10025.376,"end":10048.196,"text":"是 我知道 我要知道的就是說你任何一個合約規範裡面因為公共工程所有的合約規範包括採購法都是我們公共工程委員會來做嘛我現在要了解你現在這個法令是不是已經既備完善把它納入規範"},{"start":10051.238,"end":10071.331,"text":"規範的時候我是要了解這個問題是不是通通把它放進去了跟委員報告我們現在是透過契約範本的要求如果是真派駐勞工的話我們是要求說這個廠商在請款的時候要檢附派駐勞工的這個發放的證明"},{"start":10073.832,"end":10096.319,"text":"好上次我建議的不是這樣吳主委跟陳主委都答應我說要研議這些也把他因為他合約規範他得標大廠商他有下游廠商你們也發現到這個下游廠商有時候我"},{"start":10097.039,"end":10097.839,"text":"所以 主委"},{"start":10126.716,"end":10150.702,"text":"我還是為什麼我還是問這個我希望這些不是只有派駐員工而是連下游廠商這些員工你們要把他定的很清楚所以主委我要拜託你要折騰這些因為事實上來講你不能不確保勞工的這些工資薪資去領不到"},{"start":10151.502,"end":10178.689,"text":"所以主委你能不能答應我這個會期雖然你們沒有把它納入那這個部分是不是還講你們的那個那個法律研究單位能不能把它放下去就涵蓋小包的薪資如果讓我發現你不付我照樣可以扣你的一倍款啊扣你的工資啊扣你等等這個法令這個法規把它明確化"},{"start":10179.929,"end":10180.309,"text":"對勞工才會有幫助"},{"start":10198.038,"end":10214.975,"text":"那我們會再研議比較嚴謹的請款方式來保障最底下這一層的派駐勞工他不要說一天該給他3000塊就3000塊不能說到最後他只領到1800塊這一類的情形我們會再研議一個比較努力的方法"},{"start":10218.959,"end":10245.839,"text":"因為我們雖然有這些這是派駐勞工你們的意思也是這樣可是你泡住勞工他只限定大包商但是他有分包商或小包商他完全拿不到工資所以這個我要拜託主委因為我們是主管合約裡面規範的主管機關所以我們訂的很清楚很明確那當然大家就沒話講所以這點"},{"start":10246.579,"end":10274.992,"text":"主委我不希望下一次你到立法院我還問這個問題沒有一個解決拜託主委好不好好另外一個我特別啊就是要跟主委來談限制性招標的問題其實當然限制性招標啊也是我們公共工程裡面所有的採購法裡面首榮喜但是主委"},{"start":10276.587,"end":10281.08,"text":"這個部分我特別要提醒你你有沒有去發現到媒體廣告"},{"start":10285.186,"end":10311.838,"text":"佔了多數都是限制性招標限制性招標我說實在的啦我們打開窗戶說亮話啦大家默契都有啦這個限制性招標裡面名為限制性公開招標但是裡面技巧啊是非常之多的要給誰就給誰所以主委你是管這一塊的"},{"start":10312.958,"end":10321.946,"text":"我提供一個資訊給你媒體廣告限制性招標非常嚴重這個你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":10324.197,"end":10350.158,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那政府採購法裡面各種招標方式都明定而且只要首長簽核那麼他採取哪種招標方式決標方式那麼主要都是合乎法律規定那主要重點是說他有沒有違反法律或者是說有其他的違私那我們工程會當然要來介入啦否則的話就遵守主辦的意見"},{"start":10350.638,"end":10364.006,"text":"我剛才已經講了嘛限制性招標當然是合法的東西但是這裡面藏了非常之多我幾例那單位給誰就給誰就會變成一個"},{"start":10366.863,"end":10368.845,"text":"公共工程委員會 坦白講啊"},{"start":10389.105,"end":10411.878,"text":"他要撤銷你們這個單位我是極力主張這個單位不能撤的啊為什麼 太重要了你可以去問每一次我都挺你們挺到底的但是如果會產生有手瑕疵的招標方法就要檢討就要檢討我現在指定出來的就是這些媒體廣告"},{"start":10413.971,"end":10414.131,"text":"主委"},{"start":10440.258,"end":10460.955,"text":"最後一個我特別跟主委報告營建業一月份到八月份已經發生公安死亡人數是比去年以前高的所以這些雖然主管機關是勞動部但是監督機關公共工程委員會"},{"start":10461.676,"end":10475.724,"text":"也要所以我也要拜託主委這個部分你也要重視一下不要公安事件窮出不前這樣的話我認為這個一定要去加強好不好這個要注意一下好謝謝好謝謝林國成委員質詢接下來邀請游浩委員質詢"},{"start":10499.304,"end":10501.768,"text":"請陳主委委員早主委早"},{"start":10511.038,"end":10538.488,"text":"本席要特別要感謝您公共工程委員會在這次南投開米的風災那第一時間也情志帶隊來地方前往看災表達公共工程委員會對於南投縣的關懷跟支持那相信中央地方如果一條心那這些災情的這些救災相信才可以讓百姓安心那所以在這裡還是要再次肯定一下主委跟公共工程委員會的各位辛苦同仁"},{"start":10539.088,"end":10545.033,"text":"本席表達這次災害救災及重建經費,縣府許書華縣長及副縣長感受公共工程委員會在協助經費比例上,確實比以往還要多"},{"start":10561.607,"end":10561.667,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10592.347,"end":10605.774,"text":"謝謝您的大力支持那在目前我們如何在後續的南投縣的災後重建那可以立即的再持續協助南投好 謝謝委員因為南投縣政府這一次的"},{"start":10607.372,"end":10607.852,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":10625.317,"end":10638.265,"text":"整個災損我們核定了33.8億跟原來藍投縣政府所提的請求39億那也差不多就是說不會差很大所以希望這33.8億能夠協助藍投縣政府不管是"},{"start":10643.618,"end":10658.583,"text":"各式各樣的公共設施能夠立即來改善這個是目前的合訂的額數是這樣子好 謝謝主委那所以剛才有特別提到在這個比例上確實比以前工程會協作難途來講"},{"start":10660.143,"end":10680.372,"text":"是很有感的那所以謝謝那同樣的地方上面有在提出一些建議就在現在9月27號召開審查會議之後那在第5批已經提報完那急報急審那像現在預計在這個禮拜的話相關的經費會整個都已經審任通過完畢嗎"},{"start":10683.927,"end":10704.793,"text":"如果有些個案要補件或要再次現刊的那我們會盡速來整理再開這個審議那所以說後面還會再有一次機會像是一些崩塌點再崩落那有需要再現刊再加強還會再解釋就是這個要補件或要完成再次現刊的這個會有補救的機會"},{"start":10706.653,"end":10725.796,"text":"OK好那也謝謝那再來這個部分在南投縣還是再次表達這個171.5億的整體來講南投縣就佔了33億那再次表達感謝也持續的要拜託公共工程委員會主委跟同仁這邊那南投縣其實像現在"},{"start":10726.557,"end":10726.878,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":10741.254,"end":10763.746,"text":"那接著要延續今天大家所要探討的重點包括公共工程的一個節能減碳的一個部分那在目前來講COP他整個變遷大會之後那其實在2022年3月公布以及到2025這個淨零談判的這個目標那想要接著就教一下主委"},{"start":10764.426,"end":10787.361,"text":"在目前來講我們發現其實許多的機關尤其是中央部會的機關他們在這個碳排系數的這個相關的數據他們相關的準則其實是非常不一致的那如何能夠在什麼時間點能夠有公共工程委員會對於國家的重大工程能夠有一個統一的指引預計什麼時候會有一個這樣的指引"},{"start":10788.43,"end":10816.328,"text":"有關碳排的指引大概明年114年能夠來完成那碳排係數的收集是持續性的那我們會收集各式各樣的這個建築或營建的的這個原料或相關的一些產品那麼來做平均式來訂出碳排係數這個我們也希望能夠持續收集更廣泛的這樣的這個排放係數"},{"start":10817.208,"end":10830.691,"text":"因為中央的部會他們重大工程還是必須要有所依歸那預期這個指引的話會在114年會完成七列的指引那大概是在上半年還是下半年都會完成"},{"start":10831.624,"end":10853.819,"text":"我們大概都回答是下半年下半年大概幾月的時候之前我想明年底好不好明年底能夠來完成這七頁的質疑好那接著的話上次其實本席曾經提過跟公共工程委員會建議那目前的話重大的公共工程並沒有這個探權管理師的一個規劃那目前的話公共工程委員會對於這個議題它的規劃是如何"},{"start":10857.349,"end":10885.651,"text":"整個公共工程裏面工程預算裏面都會有探盤查的相關的編列那麽也會做生態查核生態查核不管是在設計端還是在執行端或者是各式各樣的評審委員裏面都有生態查核的機制進去我想這個生態查核一部分事實上已經涵蓋了管理碳排這樣的一個"},{"start":10887.153,"end":10891.28,"text":"這是探權管理師的這個角色探權管理探權管理師這部分我們還目前還沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":10899.52,"end":10925.542,"text":"那還是會建議公共工程委員會因為這個2025年的這個目標這是為了下一代那所以說如果相關各種可以在我們的禁令的部分能夠來去加強補充甚至於導入各種專業的力量那本期還是會建議公共工程委員會能夠慎重思考這個有關於探險管理師是會能夠在重大工程中能夠納入我相信這個對於整體來講還是會有加分的"},{"start":10926.076,"end":10953.895,"text":"這個我們來研議因為這個牽涉到這個技師啦他有一些是要透過國家考試取得技師資格技師資格才有簽證他的這個效力嘛所以這個我們通盤來研議那再來就是說這個指引之後就是現在目前縣市政府的碳排放指引的相關宣導跟準則來講那公共工程委員會要如何與縣市政府來做搭配或要求"},{"start":10954.229,"end":10956.311,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":10971.064,"end":10993.686,"text":"本期還是跟主委建議一下因為目前的話相關的會議都主要還是在於宣導跟建議那事實上的一個國家的中大公共工程包括縣市政府也佔了中央預算也有相關許多的工程其實都需要做一邊的指引甚至能夠做配合那在對於整個政府的工程在推動上也才有比較明確的一個成果"},{"start":10994.647,"end":11003.236,"text":"本席的建議跟縣市政府的指引跟宣導還到時候配合中央的部分的一個指引能夠一併的落實謝謝好謝謝油化委員質詢接下來邀請徐副會委員質詢"},{"start":11024.596,"end":11026.178,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":11033.101,"end":11033.121,"text":"委員長"},{"start":11063.201,"end":11068.785,"text":"高鐵延伸屏東路線合訂過經過交通部重新檢視之後發現施工有限制包括將來營運也會有困難所以建議改採"},{"start":11092.039,"end":11092.219,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11117.563,"end":11142.197,"text":"高雄市大部分大概沒有什麼意見但對施工的騎乘造成的影響那麼也有一些疑慮那不過目前因為那個路廊已經有了嘛因為鐵路地下化那個路廊在那裡所以將來採取淺頓在那個路廊旁邊在旁邊然後進入高雄市但是有一部分是要"},{"start":11143.217,"end":11159.002,"text":"要採取地面上作業因為總是都要接到高雄車站所以陳部長也認為說用前頓騎乘縮短施工界面整合好減少交通的影響是可行的"},{"start":11159.822,"end":11182.388,"text":"我想這也是我們希望共同努力的目標那因為我知道主委前陣子也有特別到宜蘭去協調這個高鐵延伸到宜蘭的這部分的一個工程那主委是不是讓朋友可以關心一下也主動來協調一下南業屏東這個案子那高鐵延伸到屏東的部分現在就是路線要確定"},{"start":11183.84,"end":11204.901,"text":"路線確定之後才有辦法進行環評那二階環評大概要試劑要一年審查到半年一年半以上那這部分要花點時間所以要趕快確定路線才能夠進行環評後面的程序所以這個如果這個沒有確定會影響到整個後面的程序"},{"start":11205.899,"end":11217.395,"text":"好再麻煩謝謝主委那主委另外就是因為我們剛好今天我們有一個Santor颱風也要從這個南部這邊來登陸那我知道之前開明颱風"},{"start":11218.422,"end":11240.503,"text":"呃"},{"start":11241.559,"end":11263.468,"text":"上次坎米颱風每個縣市都有災損有的嚴重有的比較不那麼嚴重那屏東當然有些是土石流或者是液體那我跟兩位副主委都分批到各縣市去看屏東也是我去看所以目前已經在審議陸續核定各縣市的補助的要求"},{"start":11264.864,"end":11283.892,"text":"主委那依屏東來看屏東目前報出來的金額是高達8.2億但是我們的年度災害準備金額剩下3.6億有4.6億的一個缺口那針對我們非六都這個財政比較困窮的縣市我們公共工程委員會是不是有這個加速審查"},{"start":11285,"end":11308.913,"text":"補足缺口的一個因應措施那屏東目前是核定了5.36億那跟屏東縣政府提出的請求已經接近非常接近所以這部分也希望能夠給屏東縣政府就上次的災損那能夠盡速來修復尤其有一個議題的部分那部分可能還需要從長期"},{"start":11310.334,"end":11327.074,"text":"對因為我們屏東這個馬上接了這個風胎齁馬上來造成什麼樣的影響我們不知道然後等於之前的受損的部分到一直也還沒有處理所以我們也是希望我們公共工程委員會能夠加快速度齁然後寫出憲章來做早日做重建那另外針對這個"},{"start":11329.116,"end":11356.867,"text":"公共工程這個落後的部分我想本席之前也一直有提出很多的質詢那根據我們調閱的一個相關資料我們公共工程的一個進度原本在111年到112年有好轉但是今年又有大幅的一個落後那目前我們調閱的相關各縣市目前統計的數量大概有600多件而且都集中在屏東臺南高雄臺東的南部跟東部這個地方"},{"start":11357.867,"end":11368.911,"text":"那加上我們現在凱米颱風又增加了地方政府施工的一個數量我們很擔心我們的工程量能不足請問這部分主委怎麼來協助我們的地方政府"},{"start":11375.926,"end":11391.861,"text":"目前工程會的作法是針對年執行預算一億以上由工程會來列管是工程性質的採購其他就是各主辦機關他去列管或是主辦機關的上級的主管機關要去列管"},{"start":11392.962,"end":11413.09,"text":"我們除了定期的集合之外每個月都會開獨島會報會了解各部門各縣市政府對重要的公共建設進度如何都會有所掌握如果有所比較落後的縣市或部會工程會都會來提醒"},{"start":11414.904,"end":11441.06,"text":"這一點也很重要這點再麻煩因為畢竟非六都的這個整個人力也好財政狀況也好真的是這個屬六都屬天堂所以真的需要我們工程會來全力協助那另外我再請教主委就是說因為我們看到有些縣市的工程他們為了要順利發包那有時候會採取所謂一個檢向的一個發報的一個權宜措施但是也發現了在檢向完之後"},{"start":11442.591,"end":11463.292,"text":"工程的這個完成之後必須還要再追加金額而且造成這個功能的一個不完備那這部分我想我們在5月份會有跟採取商委員一起連署提案那公共工程委員會也有正式提問要求各單位各相關的政府那這部分主委有沒有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":11464.653,"end":11481.679,"text":"一個公共設施他都有核定一定的這個設計內容跟預算那麼如果要採取檢像化包呢那必須在合約裡面續名將來是怎麼擴充擴充的方式"},{"start":11482.259,"end":11482.459,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11504.247,"end":11517.346,"text":"的一個採購方式那我們會再提醒各採購機關關於檢向發包的部分一定必須符合相關條件或者是不能說必要設施排除在外去檢向發包"},{"start":11519.407,"end":11539.954,"text":"這一點我們還是要提醒我們工程會我們應該要訂立更詳細的一個法律規範這樣不然你可能該做的不做不該做的做一大堆也不對這部分再請主委這邊幫忙那最後我想剛剛很多委員都提到碳費的部分那這部分還是要請工程委員會尤其我們是主管了很多的國內的一個公共建設的一個"},{"start":11541.294,"end":11541.454,"text":"黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":11572,"end":11574.064,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請主委請陳主委委員早"},{"start":11589.031,"end":11614.001,"text":"主委早有一件嚴重的事情可能要跟主委特別說明請工程會站在工程會的立場仔細的把關什麼嚴重的事情我們國軍弟兄用的防彈背心那個防彈纖維部過去這幾年從2017年一直到現在設斃的案子幾乎是年年發生"},{"start":11615.301,"end":11642.428,"text":"越來越誇張越來越嚴重這個防彈類型不是只有軍人要用而已我們的調查局我們的小鎮屬、監獄通通都要用我把它列出來了我現在列出來的列表主委你可以很清楚的看得出來背後在胡搞瞎搞的人幾乎是同一批人幾乎是同一批人這件事情有多嚴重"},{"start":11644.538,"end":11671.476,"text":"請主委仔細看請主委仔細看我不知道這個防彈背心當初防彈纖維布價格是怎麼定的但是業界大家都知道利潤很高因為利潤很高你會發現有一些莫名其妙根本從來沒有聽過在做防彈纖維布的公司甚至是上市櫃的公司全部跑來飆"},{"start":11673.203,"end":11685.281,"text":"得標了以後再轉給其他的公司來處理那等於就是我去參與那個標案我只是要賺一手啦那下面"},{"start":11686.755,"end":11707.529,"text":"由其他轉包的公司來處理結果導致的狀況來我們就先看我們的國軍防範纖維部竟然跑去中國搞劣質的東西來搞到什麼搞到從中國進來7000多萬7000多萬就cover了結果我們國防部開的標價格是兩三億"},{"start":11714.71,"end":11729.118,"text":"力量很高嘛才有人這樣胡搞瞎搞嘛好來請教一下主委啊第一個工程會有沒有注意到這個現象第二個在這工程會的立場對於這種系統性的弊案可以怎麼處理"},{"start":11733.425,"end":11748.674,"text":"這幾個個案有涉及違法的部分有的已經有採取停權的措施不過這個問題是涉及到整個國軍或警察相關的生命的安全所以工程會願意針對剛才委員提供的這些"},{"start":11749.784,"end":11750.004,"text":"主委說"},{"start":11775.464,"end":11776.385,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11794.753,"end":11805.352,"text":"大同的大眾電腦的轉包給這個公衛公司後面有全程國際有龍泉科技這個叫李信勳的"},{"start":11806.991,"end":11836.249,"text":"投票人啊不一樣的公司名稱啊但剛剛主委說該停權違法的都停權了我的問題是有嗎大眾停權大同這個案子剛進來沒有全部停權我剛大概語意有點疏漏那已經停了大眾那大同還在辦理中2022年喔我去追國防部我那時候雖然不在立法院但是站在台灣公益的立場"},{"start":11837.947,"end":11862.93,"text":"這些垃圾事情就是要把它清乾淨我們同意委員的我出任國防部為什麼大同大眾公衛沒有停權那時候弊案整個都起來了嘛主委你知道國防部怎麼回應嗎說公共工程委員會這邊齁經過調解調解成立啊所以就沒有辦停權停權跟調解成立無關啊是嘛"},{"start":11864.102,"end":11887.949,"text":"所以那時候國防部出來講的時候公共工程委員會要站出來講啊媒體都有披露啊你國防部胡說八道啊調解是私人廠商的糾紛嘛停權是公共利益嘛該停權的是不是要停權是不是沒有錯嘛那當然公共工程委員會我也就看不懂啊"},{"start":11888.752,"end":11911.684,"text":"你們自己都有下去看阿全程攏權影響採購公正阿甚至有的法院都判刑了但我現在問題就來啦設備廠商大戶公衛有停權嗎我剛執勤以前我還去查沒有阿目前就大眾停權阿對啊阿其他公司為什麼不停權"},{"start":11912.901,"end":11936.288,"text":"其他公司要查一下是不是有列案或者是說符合停權的要件來來來我全部都幫你列了報告委員這個委員應該對停權的制度非常理解因為基本上是機關發動那我們這邊就是所以是機關待於發動嘛對不對我們去了解一下啦來看一下吼哪些機關待於發動我們國防部待於發動"},{"start":11940.526,"end":11967.364,"text":"我的法務部矯正署待於發動啊我的法務部調查局待於發動啊我現在就看不懂了啊不孝的廠商拿不符合規格的東西甚至有些是從中國搞進來的結果呢大把的銀子賺了以後至於我們的國軍弟兄我們的檢調同仁我們的矯正同仁的安危於不顧"},{"start":11969.088,"end":11996.005,"text":"結果這種不肖的廠商到現在還沒有停權一而再再而三實隨滋味今天主委或者是副主委您給的答案是說那個負責的機關沒有報上來嘛好可不可以去了解一下可不可以去了解一下負責的機關為什麼沒有報上來我們可以去了解需要多久"},{"start":11998.635,"end":12021.53,"text":"發一個函請他們一個禮拜說明阿為什麼到現在沒有報庭權放水喔好我們一個禮拜發文沒有問題一個禮拜之內發文阿請這些相關的機關一個禮拜回覆阿了解可能需要一段時間阿這些機關了解需要多少時間"},{"start":12023.004,"end":12051.64,"text":"需要多少時間第二個事情請國防部說明2022年為什麼拿公共工程委員會的條解當擋箭牌那可能他對是新聞對外講的是不是不是喔這是國防部正式發的聲明喔請國防部講清楚喔為什麼拿公共工程委員會的條解當擋箭牌幫特定的廠商放水喔可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":12053.763,"end":12074.817,"text":"今天主委講得很明確了嘛調解是私人廠商的事情嘛停權是公共利益的事嘛當初國防部發那個函是要幫誰護航幫誰遮醜利率那麼高搞這種爛事不用負責然後結果竟然是國防部出來擦脂抹粉這樣對嗎"},{"start":12077.952,"end":12090.648,"text":"主委我敢講我一定負責啦你請公共工程委員會的同仁回去查一下新聞啦當初就是國防部發的新聞啦韓巡國防部當初誰發這個新聞誰做這個決定的可以嗎"},{"start":12094.056,"end":12107.635,"text":"我們會去查這個新聞了解那必要的時候會請國防部能夠針對相關的政府採購法的規定比較能夠也請國防部能夠要了解"},{"start":12109.577,"end":12109.857,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員"},{"start":12137.557,"end":12151.932,"text":"接下來邀請侯孟凱委員質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請公眾會主委請陳主委"},{"start":12159.11,"end":12183.77,"text":"好委員長主委好主委全國國人也都在關心相關的國內重大公共工程那其中這個機場的部分我不知道說這個第三航廈那公共工程委員會這邊有沒有掌握相關的一個進度T3的部分每個月都有督導會報但他現在已經又距離完工日期又延宕了是不是"},{"start":12186.093,"end":12186.973,"text":"藍燈機廊廳的部分"},{"start":12214.381,"end":12231.037,"text":"主委說實在話2026年現在我們就了解是不是已經要延宕至少延宕至少一年那主要原因是什麼目前我們還沒有接到陶基公司說要延宕一年的這樣的一個報告"},{"start":12231.497,"end":12258.995,"text":"什麼時候會有這個航廈可以正式的讓國人因為其實我們要講啊現在疫情過後飯店旅遊住宿觀光餐飲大家都很需要啊我們也希望是說這個重大公共工程可以趕快落實因為其實航廈現在我不知道說主委有沒有最近有出國的經驗啊一航廈二航廈其實都非常的擁擠尤其是特定時段所以我們目前現在掌握的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":12262.412,"end":12278.351,"text":"計劃期程會調整到116年所以我剛才講的是所以我講的是正確的會調整到116年那他分幾個部分包括那個停機坪或者是登機廊廳還有"},{"start":12279.852,"end":12308.509,"text":"主委我說實在當然這個是交通部相關下面的業務但為什麼本集會今天特別在交通委員會裡面來請教您其實最主要就是因為當我們也去追交通部我們因為他們是相關的這個主管機關那我們公共政委委員會其實是一個上位機關他是督促我們重大工程所以如果說不是重大工程我不會這樣子來這邊救教您這個是重要的政府的公共建設是而且是大家都看的我們有列管是"},{"start":12309.309,"end":12313.904,"text":"那您上一次去關心這個案件瞭解說他到底為什麼延宕一年的這樣的一個"},{"start":12315.202,"end":12343.628,"text":"有沒有去了解他的原因就任以來至少聽過三次簡報是那相關的原因很多啦包括移工的問題啦包括缺工嘛對缺工還是缺工的問題嘛缺工就是移工跑啊跑掉跑了跑了將500人以上所以那個缺工是一個問題那其他當然是承攬商的問題所以目前是116年所以我印象中我聽過三次大概都維持這樣的進度了"},{"start":12343.928,"end":12369.782,"text":"跑了500人以上的移工啊跑了500人以上的移工啊這可能是之前大家都不知道的原來我們淘機是那 主委那我想請教有沒有信心跟把握能夠督促交通部2027年等於116年民國116年能夠落成讓國人看到第三航廈可以使用"},{"start":12371.212,"end":12387.692,"text":"陶菊公司給我們的簡報是OK啦是沒有問題就是整個交通部的簡報是沒問題那我們會全力來督促他如期完成這樣的工程甚至有一部分陸續會完成陸續啟用也有啦並不是整個主體都完成才啟用"},{"start":12388.192,"end":12411.989,"text":"是當然不是每個主題都完成來啟用但是重點在於說能不能使用還有就是安全無虞嘛停機坪就可以而且中間是中間是它這個航廈跟跑道的這個部分能夠來啟用嘛來主委我再請教一下啦齁因為今天上午有討論到這個評委的一個部分啦只是其中有一個當然這我同仁有特別提出來就是說"},{"start":12413.11,"end":12435.009,"text":"專家學者建議名單的資料庫除名作業要點那其中第二條裡面有提到說資格審查的門檻央央沙沙寫了很多不管是單位教職或者是學友所藏學友專精但最後有加入民國98年9月20號以前已納入資料庫的專家學者不適用前項規定"},{"start":12436.772,"end":12436.952,"text":"我請處長來說明"},{"start":12453.444,"end":12476.617,"text":"跟委員報告在我們專家學者資料庫是3年一個期限是所以他如果3年的時候沒有他再重新再要進入這個資料庫的時候就必須要符合這些資格所以應該沒有在這個之前已經沒有了嗎對除非他原本是符合就是以現在的標準來說因為我們3年要重新再檢視一遍每3年會重新整理相關的一個"},{"start":12477.597,"end":12479.578,"text":"本席想了解到底有多少人是適用這樣的一個資格"},{"start":12502.907,"end":12531.386,"text":"那沒關係今天我提出來這個疑問我也請這個我們相關單位是不是主委可以提供個資料給本席目前我們的這個學者名單裡面有多少人那以及這樣的一個條件是不是已經沒有使用那如果說沒有使用的話其實這一條但書也就可以拿掉了嘛學者名單是人數呢還是具體每個人每個人當然人數人數OK不需要你給我這洋洋灑灑這個人名啦我的要是人數以及就是說他符合的一個資格"},{"start":12532.307,"end":12548.512,"text":"那如果說真的現在這8月20號以前納入已經都沒有的話其實這個單數也就可以拿掉了好不好謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員接下來邀請王美惠委員質詢主席請陳主委"},{"start":12563.966,"end":12584.387,"text":"委員長早主委在這裏你也相信我們公共工程的主委也負責交通的問題在廣東以外交通的建設都和你都有合作的結果在這裏我相信主委看我站在這知道我要來問什麼"},{"start":12586.969,"end":12591.513,"text":"但畢竟5月19日本省有自己探討過 也因為今天有這個時間主委來的時候"},{"start":12598.154,"end":12603.559,"text":"要如何將這次的鐵路高架配合?這次的鐵路高架是由李鴻一青年開始做的,總共230倍的價格,對他們的負擔款30倍的價格"},{"start":12619.073,"end":12630.477,"text":"要不然在這幾天內,尤其二月二十年,我們有在裡面的修正,定於我們的總金額是334億,給我們的負擔"},{"start":12635.879,"end":12636.9,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12655.58,"end":12663.102,"text":"主委探討的是說,長久以來,我們有這個問題,高利貸和現有的技能,中華不一樣,因為高利貸已經在做了,在做的當中,長久以來,我們現有的,現在會遲到,常常說你們中央求高利貸,"},{"start":12684.858,"end":12685.659,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":12700.014,"end":12715.402,"text":"主委,大家都心誠說,最近在紀蘭的建設,我相信你也很用心,尤其我們的大中央,未來的政策在交通的有18、40項,要漸漸去落實,要漸漸去做"},{"start":12720.965,"end":12723.769,"text":"要不然一定會回到以前那樣的配合,以前說30多個月,到現在過幾年變40多個月"},{"start":12736.001,"end":12757.498,"text":"主委,在這裏,我們沒有一個方法來解決這個地方的問題來,請主委,你回答一下董事長,董事長委員,這整個的背景是因為已經在施作當中對,我知道那這部分我請現在的行政部長"},{"start":12759.159,"end":12774.924,"text":"委員：政府來探討這八頁的內容是否分攤的比例還是說它項目是來自於是土地取得還是什麼那些都了解之後再進一步來合相我會給補充建議說安排這個時間跟政府或是委員做比較詳細的討論"},{"start":12785.762,"end":12794.166,"text":"因為主委本席跟你談到的就是說﹐我們需要讓地方辦理的﹐我們就非要早前﹐沒有買賣之後﹐還要去讓地方辦理也不好﹐最新立法做過地方的備付款﹐需要地方的財政要怎麼去處理﹐"},{"start":12810.433,"end":12811.554,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":12824.688,"end":12844.2,"text":"那這樣說幾個月都沒有改善：也在本席來接到之後：才有辦法改善：我說喔,我們做的工程：說沒有應用到出民大會：是不可能的即使人家有意見的時候：我們要趕快去處理：可以讓做工的安全：也可以讓住戶的人"},{"start":12850.043,"end":12851.244,"text":"好 謝謝完美會委員"},{"start":12879.554,"end":12881.215,"text":"接下來邀請廖偉祥委員質詢謝謝主席有請我們陳珠緯請陳珠緯"},{"start":12905.968,"end":12933.7,"text":"委員長主委你好首先要感謝你上星期為了我們臺中的捷運南線的基本設計問題親自到現場會堪那我想捷運南線是我們臺中的重大建設不僅我們的經費龐大那工期也很長那而且這也是市府跟地方鄉親對於我們重大的交通建設希望期盼可以儘速的動工儘速的完工那我想要請教主委這個最快何時可以再開審查會議"},{"start":12936.916,"end":12950.271,"text":"這個分成兩部分一部分是修正計畫就等行政院核定另外就是那天基本設計的會刊那麼有一些需要補正的那我想補正之後"},{"start":12951.693,"end":12966.475,"text":"這個基本設計的核定應該是一個月以內可以完成的一個月以內可以完成喔所以也可以就是說在一個月內完成這個基本設計的審查OKOK那依照目前的審查時程我們可以確保年底前完成基本設計嗎"},{"start":12969.744,"end":12988.851,"text":"因為他基本設計已經有了所以工程會是審查所以整個核定之後基本設計就可以了嘛他就進行細部設計然後相關工程採購發包等等就是功能所以之所以要懇請我們工程會加速完成審查就是希望我們要配合預算的編列的程序"},{"start":12989.651,"end":13012.316,"text":"我們希望說雖然目前前瞻四五期已經有了部分的經費但是我們的這個總工程經費高達1600多億那工期長達10年那2034年我們希望2034年可以完工嘛對不對所以我們都知道越早動工可以越能節省我們的經費那越完動工我們經費的變動性就越高那目前預計在115年可以確定可以動工嗎"},{"start":13017.458,"end":13041.636,"text":"要看主辦單位他的細部設計的時間那我們會向交通部或者是鐵道局來了解他的細設需要多少時間好那但是如果說我們希望在115年可以動工的話那是不是意味著明年的交通部這邊也要開始這個編列預算預算可能要請教交通部"},{"start":13045.178,"end":13062.111,"text":"因此越早完成我們的基本設計的審議就是希望可以越早來配合我們所謂希望儘早來施工儘早能夠完成這樣對台中市來講比較重要的捷運計畫沒錯 因為還要配合很多都市計畫變更等等的那也都是相當長的程序"},{"start":13063.132,"end":13083.19,"text":"所以我要拜託的是所主委就是除了剛剛你有承諾的進速在年底這些該過的流程都過了之外也請你關心後續整個工程發報的過程包含這個包含什麼土建工程、基建工程如果發報過程中有任何的困難要拜託主委多多的協助所以我願意跟台中市政府來配合"},{"start":13084.091,"end":13102.706,"text":"所以主委也要拜託您協調您可不可以保證說協調相關的部門確保明年的預算編列能夠充分考慮到捷運藍線的需求這個可以我們會跟交通部及其他的部會來討論是那因為我想喔常常是溝通上的問題想要考慮到我們藍線捷運的複雜性還有我們的這個重要性"},{"start":13106.088,"end":13132.239,"text":"有沒有可能建立一個更有效的溝通機制比如說您是否可以考慮成立一個比較像專門的工作小組來定期的召開這樣的會議來協助過程中可能出現的問題我們中大公建計畫都會列管而且固定會開督導會報那必要的時候我會請同仁在部會跟市府的負責的窗口那會有一個平台同時隨時來討論或隨時來協調問題"},{"start":13136.16,"end":13161.374,"text":"對,我想這個過程中一來一回已經就是拖了非常的久,回去要修正回去要修正等等的那主委你今天的報告也有提到最近這幾年工程流標的改進方式那我想這部分也很肯定,但是實務上常常會遇到國際原物料的物價突然大幅變動所以導致工程經費不足或是甚至廠商不願意投標那請教主委你有沒有是不是考慮說寬列物調費跟預備費"},{"start":13164.649,"end":13187.257,"text":"這個我們會請機關必要的時候修改相關的招標的契約就物條的部分何時來編列我想這樣對於整個招標程序會比較順利好那我問到這邊最後我還是想要問一下我們都知道捷運建設不僅有這個工程技術等等的問題還有環境土地等複雜的問題"},{"start":13188.417,"end":13201.153,"text":"那請問工程會是不是還有更多的專業支持特別是在這些跨領域問題上具體來說就是工程會還可以做哪些方面的額外提供臺中市政府的支持和這個建設進度的支持"},{"start":13203.767,"end":13227.626,"text":"就是我們會隨時注意他的施工進度跟品質那如果說跟承攬商之間有一些合約不清楚的工程會還有一個諮詢委員會可以隨時接受雙方的諮詢確認這個合約雙方的這個起義讓這個施工比較順利而不一定要直接進入申訴或調解或仲裁"},{"start":13228.166,"end":13238.391,"text":"有一個特別有一個諮詢委員會就能夠快速來解決雙方面的問題好總而言之謝謝拜託你在這個我們藍線捷運上繼續的幫我們盯緊進度好謝謝好謝謝那接下來邀請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席本席想邀請主委請陳主委"},{"start":13262.933,"end":13277.619,"text":"主委我們首先來討論碳排的問題公共工程委員會公共工程所佔的是全國一層的碳排那你的碳排你的KPI是什麼請教"},{"start":13278.881,"end":13298.694,"text":"這個碳排是應該是來自於它所用的原物料啦這些原物料本身在生產過程當中都有計算碳排的嘛所以我們工程會做的就是說會希望把這些原物料它的單位碳排放係數啊能夠把它做一個資料庫"},{"start":13299.875,"end":13323.657,"text":"那這些資料庫就讓這個發包就採購的機關在設計的時候他能夠針對他的工程項目那麼去計算這樣的一個總碳排放量或者選擇什麼樣的方式比方說用一些再生利料或者用一些碳排比較少的原物料來降低這個工程師做的碳排"},{"start":13323.817,"end":13324.258,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13340.559,"end":13365.297,"text":"經常會回答一句話我們遵循環境部2050年淨零碳排的目標就這麼說所以民眾會質疑所以本席認為如果真的只是這樣的回答是表示太消極三個字送你所以本席要你一個資料你有沒有具體的KPI跟質疑你覺得工程這個碳排會下降嗎會下降嗎"},{"start":13368.533,"end":13372.617,"text":"你是希望如此但是你必須要設置相關的措施相關的措施你才能夠去掌控"},{"start":13390.373,"end":13392.635,"text":"本席希望具體的KPI跟指引跟相關措施請你詳時順便介紹給本席因為這是全球都關注的議題接下來本席要請教"},{"start":13405.984,"end":13432.132,"text":"人家要請教我們臺中捷運藍線我也謝謝上個禮拜你們有再帶隊去現場產刊這個是我們臺中非常重要而且藍色捷運是期待十多年了好久了我們大家全力以赴臺中市政府團隊更是全力以赴所以本期要在這邊請教你去這個這個現刊呢我們的中捷藍線總經費大概是1615億"},{"start":13435.273,"end":13459.274,"text":"那其中這個由工程會去審查的就有1441億那麼我們非常的希望現在已經這個10月我們非常的希望能夠儘速的9月底了能夠儘速的來審查通過如期在2034年來完工通則所以主委審查的進度呢請教主委我們就遵照委員的交代"},{"start":13460.195,"end":13466.738,"text":"這個基本設計的核定希望10月底前來核定10月底以前務必要核定好不好所以剩下30天的時間拜託拜託拜託因為我們的市民已經等了十幾年我們非常非常的期待我想在台中市府的團隊我們是全力以赴所以我要拜託在這個時前時程請掌控好不好那我們一個結論也就是10月底以前將我們的藍色捷運的審查"},{"start":13489.206,"end":13490.127,"text":"基本設計工程會審查那1441億的這個部分我們預估"},{"start":13499.619,"end":13523.121,"text":"確認希望努力在10月底已經完成審查通過好不好那要拜託你掌控這個進度要謝謝你我們也會全力因為我們務必依照如期如值的2034年要完工通車我們大家一起加油最後一個議題本席要請教工程的流標問題"},{"start":13524.881,"end":13548.467,"text":"主委 這個最內行的 這個工程流標那大概五千萬以上 我們做了你的統計五千萬以上的工程採購流標率是七成左右那這個為什麼會如此那大家都只有說我缺人工我覺得這個不是一個理由不是一個非常主要的一個理由所以我們看到因為"},{"start":13550.165,"end":13577.467,"text":"大家都希望趕快完成但是你光光五千萬以上你就有七成的流標到底他的問題出在哪裡包括了你的廢標這些的情況本席認為工程會必須要做一個整體性方案的一個檢討你光光流標一次我們要浪費多少時間浪費多少人力那為什麼不從頭源頭把它做好請說明"},{"start":13579.282,"end":13581.572,"text":"這個的確是因為物價一直在上漲"},{"start":13582.898,"end":13601.091,"text":"那而且這個整個人力也都相對不足所以這個我們會跟流標的機關來跟他們討論是否需要修改相關的招標條件不是是否是務必需要因為您看到我們從這個109年到111年從68.85一直上升到78.07所以你明明白白你的占比一直在增加"},{"start":13612.739,"end":13634.633,"text":"你光光上半年112年去年上半年你查核的流票的金額案件就491件你的占比也是71點多所以我記得我們有一次在教育部的部分因為他重新做一個整體性的規劃他就降低那個流票率"},{"start":13635.72,"end":13664.022,"text":"所以各位你是不是應該要跟各部會去統籌我們會跟這個主辦機關那麼來你協助好不好這是你的專業你各部會你應該跟他們討論你為什麼會流標到七成你要浪費多少人力浪費多少的這個時間那你們應該要站在專業的領域跟他們去溝通要怎麼樣可以去修改"},{"start":13665.083,"end":13672.276,"text":"讓這個事件不要再流標七成五千萬以上就要流標七成你看我們浪費多少人力浪費多少時間"},{"start":13675.087,"end":13698.005,"text":"這裏面包括第一次未足三加的不過的確是因為相對的條件都在改變所以我們會跟各這些採購五千萬以上的機關在做討論優發優破你如果都不去改變你也明明知道目前的困境是什麼你又不去改變那當然不只七成還會越來越高"},{"start":13699.198,"end":13728.482,"text":"是不是主委本席具體建議你是不是主一個專案主一個專案依照目前的樣態我們在整個過程當中可以怎麼樣去協調一個能夠精進的方法我們針對個案都有持續在進行中就是針對個案流標多次的都會主動介入那當然你的成果還是一樣啊還是我告訴你的是七成以上啊"},{"start":13729.417,"end":13743.834,"text":"主委另外一個思維好不好另外一個思維目前的面向困境是什麼你以你的專業組一個專案去協助所有的各部會我們到底要怎麼樣去調整好嗎好"},{"start":13746.881,"end":13747.181,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13777.648,"end":13778.909,"text":"主席請主委陳主委"},{"start":13804.364,"end":13832.282,"text":"委員好主委好我們老同學又見面了這個我們港鐵還是要拜託一下主委雖然520到現在不是很長的時間但是也不短已經4個月了可能我們還是要趕快就位發條要上進救災如救火這個救人第一現在"},{"start":13833.697,"end":13845.848,"text":"整個花蓮0403的地震到現在這個陳建仁主委陳建仁院長跟吳哲琛當時的主委第一時間就宣布要全力來救災"},{"start":13847.222,"end":13870.425,"text":"還要比照這COVID-19期間對於人才的培訓等等都宣布了所以當時也馬上去匡列一些相關的運算雖然大部分都在公部門的資本門比較多大概佔了大概三分之四左右但是接下來執行的部分要拜託主委"},{"start":13871.573,"end":13878.34,"text":"你真的要全力投入啊因為地震到現在已經有一段相當相當的時間將近6個月了"},{"start":13882.904,"end":13909.689,"text":"所以現在關於這個黃丹跟紅丹戶的耐震補強八成五的這個補助耐震補強到現在為止八月六號地方政府就已經詢問這個工程會到底因為這一次的地震這一千一千九百多戶裡面大部分都是大樓都是十五六成的大樓"},{"start":13911.141,"end":13936.748,"text":"那現在到底我們這個救助的金額補助金額這個8成5要給他耐震補強到底這些管委會是不是用採購法依照過去依照過去吳哲成主委的立場是直接就宣布這天然災害就直接使用採購法105條就趕快使用要盡快搶災救災盡快完成"},{"start":13939.699,"end":13956.454,"text":"現在8月6號 地方政府已經詢問公共工程委員會 到現在 哇 不得了 兩個月啦 工程會還沒有回文啊主委啊 本期有打電話給你嘛 我們現在工程會到底怎麼回事 我們這個輪子是鬆掉了嗎"},{"start":13958.771,"end":13972.17,"text":"報告委員我去查了就是全差重建到底是都更或違老或者是說不參加都更違老這部分內政部有簽一個案在奉核"},{"start":13973.516,"end":13973.776,"text":"黃丹 內政補強"},{"start":13994.65,"end":13997.152,"text":"當天有去一個復活式住宅有提出一個方法是可以"},{"start":14025.202,"end":14046.016,"text":"由社區管委會來發報,不是用政府採購法。我記得那天那個個案是這個樣子的。不過詳細情形我想我請...沒有關係沒有關係,因為主委時間很短。我不曉得本委會才4分鐘5分鐘。這樣子啦,主委我想已經來兩個月的文了。"},{"start":14047.287,"end":14047.487,"text":"對於這個勞動部啊"},{"start":14069.953,"end":14094.565,"text":"因為我們現在住房大概只剩下百分之這個暑假剩下百分之五這個系統性的風暴會發生到底銀行的這些這些觀光業者到底銀行貸款要不要繳到底員工還要不要續聘這都很嚴重的問題那當時陳建仁院長跟吳哲成主委都宣布這個比照COVID-19期間讓員工能夠能夠從典進修"},{"start":14098.237,"end":14123.94,"text":"但是呢 當時是基本工資的救助現在呢 就又打折這個不能請工程會追一下好不好 勞動部不能違反整個院裡的基本原則好不好 讓這些員工能夠藉由充電的方式至少繼續在崗位上在整個國家還沒有讓花蓮有回復安全回家路之前"},{"start":14125.833,"end":14151.369,"text":"本席講了這麼多次到時候行政院要承擔這整個責任本席再讓你看一下今天早上發生的事情再看一下這今天早上惠德隧道的北口"},{"start":14157.875,"end":14160.758,"text":"我要跟主委商量一下這是今年第9次華聯的孤島,第9次"},{"start":14181.789,"end":14210.738,"text":"花蓮縣政府的副縣長今天禮拜一上班日早上搭台鐵8點鐘接近要到花蓮結果鐵路又停下來請所有的人要掉頭再搭車回台北然後坐高鐵到高雄然後再搭台鐵到花蓮大概今天到花蓮已經晚上了這是今天早上會發生的事情"},{"start":14212.418,"end":14225.896,"text":"但行政院到底有沒有去把整個鐵公路要怎麼樣能夠安全現在國內旅行社已經沒有排花林的國旅了因為到了花林不曉得能不能回得來我們真的不是一索皮牙"},{"start":14231.018,"end":14251.668,"text":"我跟委員報告,我也是大嫂,所以這個是感同身受那目前我的想法是說,盡快讓梳化案這三段趕快完成那趕快完成之後就取代這個梳化T就原台九線,梳化改,就變成梳化公路"},{"start":14252.008,"end":14252.609,"text":"臺九丁蘇花古道"},{"start":14275.669,"end":14304.506,"text":"河仁到崇德要評估改道就是要用隧道來取代現在河仁到崇德段的鐵道主委這段給你說明一下在7月多李孟元部長跟總統院長都已經來過華臨討論過相關的事情你要改道要打隧道那又是若干若干若干很多年以後的事情這段時間所有的產業都活不下去"},{"start":14305.902,"end":14307.823,"text":"提出報告就是高價化的部分"},{"start":14333.251,"end":14359.552,"text":"何人跟崇德高價化的部分現在都已經在做研究報告年底會出來所以拜託主委我們同班同學拜託跟上進度一下啦好不好不然地方人很難生活一個公文發給工程會兩個月沒有回文他不曉得怎麼做我們來改進好不好拜託主委好不好謝謝謝謝傅坤熙委員"},{"start":14364.161,"end":14366.082,"text":"接下來邀請王洪威委員質詢好謝謝主席我請陳金德陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":14384.721,"end":14389.668,"text":"好 各位好我先延續一下剛才我們傅昆祺總召他的質詢因為確實 因為現在颱風來襲本來我有那個親戚"},{"start":14395.595,"end":14417.455,"text":"本來定了要去花蓮因為要支持花蓮的觀光可是颱風一來最後還是必須忍痛的割愛所以也確實我覺得在我們花東地區的現在的交通的狀況已經變成迫在眉睫的事情所以也請主委因為我看你在這個我們國土法裡面"},{"start":14418.175,"end":14441.564,"text":"你也有很多的這個建議更對其他的部會所以也一樣請你發揮你這個協調或者是你體察民意的這樣的一個精神能夠趕快的來反應那另外呢我要跟主委請教的是在在上個會期我曾經針對我們警政署他的"},{"start":14446.946,"end":14465.456,"text":"警用的防彈衣的採購採購下來大概有四分之一不堪使用必須要退回給廠商請他重新的再補正結果這個警用的背心廠商事實上從102年開始他陸陸續續因為他的採購劣跡斑斑"},{"start":14474.881,"end":14500.863,"text":"被列為黑名單的次數達7次之多但是他照樣他一旦解除黑名單之後他照樣可以去投標所以這個廠商包括他的兒子也成立一家廠商一直都常常的來標我們的僅用防彈背心然後每次都被踢爆之後然後他再來做補正"},{"start":14502.519,"end":14518.986,"text":"這樣的事情對於我們第一線的警察基層警察同仁情何以堪啊這個房貸背心是保命用的結果這樣的黑心廠商卻可以一而再再而三的去得標不但他去得標他兒子開的公司也去得標所以在這裡啊我要請我們公共工程委員會針對我們政府採購法必須去防堵這樣的弊端"},{"start":14531.551,"end":14548.721,"text":"各位你知道嗎?我們去調查了,因為呢,我們到現在為止,你雖然有拒絕往來名單,可是即便他出包,他過一段時間後,也許他過一年,過兩年,甚至他找他的親戚再成立一家公司,他照樣可以得標。"},{"start":14549.742,"end":14559.568,"text":"我們現在有一些廠商被列為拒絕往來戶最高都超過60件有66件的64件的57件的他怕嗎他不怕因為等到他回來解除了他的這個黑名單限制之後他又是好漢一個繼續來投標"},{"start":14571.676,"end":14586.812,"text":"那所以我在這邊其實我已經提出修法我認為我們政府採購法裡面應該要有所謂的刪證條款也就是當你一而再再而三的被作為拒絕往來戶的時候你應該有一個懲罰性的條這個規定永久列為拒絕往來戶"},{"start":14595.075,"end":14603.202,"text":"這些廠商才會乖啊才會害怕啊你看連僅用的防彈背心他都可以這樣惡搞我告訴你啊我們去提出這樣的相關的問題的時候警察署竟然告訴我沒關係啦我們發現啦這麼多一千四百多片喔這些防彈背心這個凹陷板我們呢要求廠商完成回收"},{"start":14621.357,"end":14639.527,"text":"回收就好然後告訴你因為我們按照法裡面也沒有說永久性不准他再來標所以他還可以再來標所以主委可不可以請我們公共工程委員會認真的去思考檢討這個黑名單"},{"start":14641.243,"end":14665.24,"text":"可不可以不然的話這些黑名單一年三年之後他又來標了我可以告訴你喔如果你不改的話我就給你追蹤這些喔這種影響我們警察基層第一線生命的你再讓他標試試看所以主委可不可以我們工程委員會正本清源之道從政府採購法裡面去修法"},{"start":14666.726,"end":14689.871,"text":"就在現有的法令裡面我們會就針對這個防彈被侵這些案除了停權者之外已經有違法判刑的這些個人或他相關的公司我們會專案去清查提醒各主辦機關你這樣個案那這是被我抓出來沒被我抓出來的這些共同的名稱"},{"start":14691.031,"end":14692.353,"text":"我現在就是請你們能夠檢討修法"},{"start":14706.57,"end":14722.8,"text":"好這個修法我們來研究好不好來檢討你可以做一個門檻嗎那種惡性重大的不要再讓他有這種僥倖的機會還有其他也似乎也應該要有一些修正的必要我們一併來討論絕對不是只有警用背心還有好多其他的"},{"start":14723.12,"end":14724.32,"text":"接下來邀請陳俊宜委員質詢"},{"start":14758.407,"end":14762.678,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請我們陳主委請陳主委主委午安"},{"start":14768.63,"end":14793.403,"text":"謝謝主委主委上任到今天可以說馬不停蹄對於我們全國相關的這些建設重要的這些工程都持續的在做追蹤跟彙整那當然我們對於宜蘭縣大家所關心的這個鐵路高架的部分也在這個近期內由我們主委跟相關部會經過協商之後對於"},{"start":14795.404,"end":14819.299,"text":"這個配合款合理的編列我相信我們已經有一個這個明確的一個方向那我在此我想要請教主委就是針對這個鐵路高架的部分宜蘭的這個15.85公里的部分我們可不可以請主委要求相關部位一定要在兩年內這個如期的來動工"},{"start":14821.419,"end":14841.713,"text":"謝謝委員這個鐵路高架的部分因為現在環評通過了通過不久所以他現在交通部更準備把這個綜合規劃計畫還有一些財務的規劃要報院來審查所以如果說這個跟宜蘭縣政府要取得一致的"},{"start":14843.334,"end":14844.395,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":14865.942,"end":14876.39,"text":"一覽縣政府必須配合是一覽縣政府必須配合相關的準備工程包括用地取得用地取得或者是相關的一些都市規劃等等"},{"start":14877.721,"end":14880.843,"text":"以來來看我們有目前23個平交道尚未這個拆除那這一段這個鐵路高架完成之後會減少9個平交道"},{"start":14898.634,"end":14912.709,"text":"這個可以讓民眾出入更安全而且行車更安全更方便也不用再浪費時間在那邊等待火車的時間所以我們還是很期待"},{"start":14913.951,"end":14933.13,"text":"現政府在此我也呼籲現政府應該是要來重視這個問題切勿這個出爾反爾因為從過去到現在現政府講的這個說辭有一點反覆那這個會影響到的是人民直接的權益所以我也希望說在"},{"start":14933.59,"end":14960.764,"text":"我們中央願意支持配合之下那個宜蘭縣政府應該也要有積極的作為這個我要拜託主委說我們後續的這個督工方面要拜託我們公共工程委員會及相關部會對於這個工程的這個推動能夠我們這個來掌握我們也會跟宜蘭縣政府在經理部溝通是好謝謝主委那另外就是針對這個義淹水地區那也特別感謝政委這個協調跟溝通"},{"start":14963.585,"end":14987.87,"text":"對於這個宜蘭縣我們大家所關心的這個五結防潮閘門還有這個圓山七賢的這個西周排水湊水站的相關工程那我們可以預先來匡列預算讓這個附近的住戶跟民眾可以更加放心我們看到今天颱風又要進來那我相信這附近的民眾真的說了一個屁屁話"},{"start":14988.69,"end":15011.816,"text":"那未來我相信這些工程如果能夠如期來推動的話對於住戶的這個居住安全一定有這個適當的這個提升那我也在此也是拜託這個政委就針對這個部分後續的相關工程也是要請我們相關部委一定要對於這個期程的安排一定要落實然後如期來動工如期來完工"},{"start":15012.236,"end":15021.619,"text":"好這個可以好那另外還有一個工程就是我們這個東山的這個移東橋改建那移東橋因為在這個1980年的6月竣工到現在已經歷經40年40多年了那這個橋樑的部分他這個橋體老舊歸列而且他的這個"},{"start":15032.142,"end":15032.602,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":15052.638,"end":15052.818,"text":"好,謝謝陳俊宇委員質詢"},{"start":15083.117,"end":15085.1,"text":"李博義委員李副主委"},{"start":15105.184,"end":15133.043,"text":"副主委你好先感謝你我上個禮拜我在上個禮拜二在院會的時候特別跟院長表達感謝就是院長很快的請這個我們工程會主委陳金德主委救高雄的新台17線突然陳其邁市長打來跟我說遇到一個很大的困難恐怕沒有辦法在2026年如期通車"},{"start":15134.324,"end":15158.851,"text":"我們快呃陳主委我馬上找陳主委齁那李副主委就快速的在9月5號跟9月18號的時候分別開了會議以及做了一個現場現刊把過去曾經如果我當時還在高雄市政府碰到國防部突然把原本講好的14億突然增加到28億"},{"start":15160.851,"end":15170.963,"text":"光是這一個14億增加到28億光是要協調國防部這件事情這個金額在當時民進黨執政的陳菊對當時馬政府的國防部"},{"start":15174.987,"end":15193.906,"text":"這件事情我看最少要慢個兩年14年最少要慢到16年要等政黨輪替那我們工程會在快速的這兩三個禮拜內快速的把國防部的這個相關的經費協調好我想請那個李德副主委簡單說明一下協調好之後還有什麼要注意的事情"},{"start":15198.79,"end":15223.707,"text":"大概以新台17縣目前狀況大概是第一個就是有關經費增加部分因為之前是在吳前主委時期已經有大概會針對那個國防部就高雄來講就突然增加14億又說要新建一個這個新的戰備當然就是經過這種討論跟會刊之後其實大家把這些誤會把它釐清因為確實高雄市政府那時候估的經費是市政府來估那因為那是在軍事管制地區所以他只能從空拍去看"},{"start":15224.467,"end":15244.7,"text":"那實際上等到國防部同意市政府團隊進去之後才發現其實需要受到衝擊的待拆待建的建物變滿多的那還有一些是針對那個整個軍區的這個防衛任務跟目標那個不能妥協那所以因為這樣詳細估算之後確實是我們也大概現場去核實過大概會增加到從14億多變28億多"},{"start":15247.102,"end":15263.289,"text":"那所以這是第一個困難點那第二個就是說在那個騎乘上面就是這個會涉及到經費我幫你做一個結尾就是直接抽換工建計畫讓今年度的不用再重送工建計畫這讓2026年的通車是有可能"},{"start":15264.249,"end":15265.83,"text":"那我還需要請主委只剩1分鐘我快速"},{"start":15289.244,"end":15308.699,"text":"也是一樣齁主委謝謝感謝你從上個禮拜二質詢完院長那表示在之前交通部李前部長有來跟我說明過可能有高雄方案的時候我在上個禮拜二公布這件事情之後現在整個輿論網路一片嘩然"},{"start":15309.622,"end":15325.476,"text":"大家對如果真的有高雄方案高鐵進高雄車站再次開挖民挖淺頓對高雄地區市區即將造成重大的影響一片嘩然大家覺得"},{"start":15327.145,"end":15346.413,"text":"深思啊大家覺得聽聽民眾的意見啊所以在地方上開始有很多人給我相關的意見認為當然除了這個責任的釐清以外也要把可能會對高雄再一次的黑暗交通黑暗期來說明清楚主委這個這個意見也讓你好"},{"start":15346.997,"end":15347.177,"text":"謝謝李博義委員"},{"start":15376.038,"end":15377.679,"text":"主席有請陳金德主委陳金德主委"},{"start":15397.065,"end":15422.346,"text":"委員好主委好給花蓮人一條安全回家的路給台灣人一條安全旅行的路剛剛前面有看到福昆齊委員跟王洪委員都有在關心花蓮現在的不管是交通乃至於觀光的狀況那我也聽到主委的很多的回答我先跟主委說其實"},{"start":15423.507,"end":15451.994,"text":"我看到花蓮現在的情形我自己是心裡是蠻沉重的因為我也是花蓮出生的小孩那尤其安全回家的路跟所謂的安全旅行的路是同樣的嘛 對不對所以他現在觀光的困境跟所謂的現在花蓮的這個道路經過前面的地震還有一些天災所造成的一些破壞那都有很直接的關係嘛 對不對 主委"},{"start":15453.513,"end":15481.846,"text":"沒有錯因為地質的關係所以最近幾年內我想尤其是那一段是很難有穩定的地質就從德到何人這一段所以我真的還是希望我們政府能夠因為花蓮也是我們的就是一部分對不對所以希望政府在這一部分要多加一點努力因為我父親其實我聽到給花蓮人一條安全回家路那從小就聽到大的為什麼因為我父親就是修路的工人"},{"start":15482.586,"end":15504.215,"text":"所以每次入了攤房他以前在花蓮的時候他就要出去負責修道路甚至還有看到他同僚就因此這個在工程當中往生的都有所以這個奮鬥他不是今天一天兩天他是一直持續下去希望我們的政府能夠對花蓮的人民能夠多柔軟一點那我想請教你下一個問題就是說"},{"start":15505.976,"end":15521.565,"text":"我想請教我們主委你知道臺灣一年溫室氣體淨排放量大概是多少嗎這部分我沒有數據兩億七千多萬二氧化碳當量那公共工程排碳量大概佔多少"},{"start":15522.298,"end":15523.298,"text":"公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程"},{"start":15543.627,"end":15567.392,"text":"公共工程總排總碳排放量的17.2%所以政府主導的公共工程其實在臺灣也算是排碳的大戶嘛對不對這裡面主要是原料就是水泥啊鋼筋啊黑泥土等等那我想請教主委我想請教你就是在我們2030年的減碳目標是減量多少是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":15572.881,"end":15578.345,"text":"主委這個數字還是要掌握一下我直接跟您說國發會在2022年提出2030年國家制定貢獻減排目標是2005年基期的24%正負1這個您知道嗎"},{"start":15590.104,"end":15613.055,"text":"這個是國發會定定的戰略這個戰略不是只是國發會的戰略是政府總體戰略工程會我覺得可能也要努力一下我想請教一下工程會今年5月有發函給15個中央單位要求各單位提供公共工程減碳目標辦理情形目前有哪幾個單位還沒有明確定定減碳目標"},{"start":15617.598,"end":15644.487,"text":"我這邊掌握到訊息是這樣我覺得主委這邊可能要再多掌握一下有8個部會還沒有明確的訂定包括教育部、文化部、法務部、衛福部、客委會、海委會、原委會、退府會那麼想請教一下就是說我們如果說這個部分請主委再繼續努力幫大家再追蹤一下我們就是要訂定排碳指引所以希望明年能夠完成"},{"start":15645.409,"end":15668.199,"text":"對希望就是催促我們政府趕快把目標定出來那內政部跟這個交通部也都還沒有完成設定的目標嘛但是內政部跟交通部都是我們算是公共工程的大戶吧對不對所以工程會這邊希望能夠好好追蹤進度啦除了初步目標以外的話我建議就是工程會也要訂定跟國發會2030年的目標一樣減碳量要達到24%正負1"},{"start":15674.321,"end":15677.21,"text":"做得到嗎?主委就公共工程的部分"},{"start":15678.737,"end":15706.152,"text":"那我們全力來降低公共工程的進步主委我跟你講我剛剛問國科會就是我們的AI之島我們的排行一直掉我們的國科會的主委就很大方告訴我說他說他4年內賴總統卸任之前拼到10名內我今天想要聽到的是你在2030保證正負24%正負1可不可以國發會訂定的目標工程會一定要遵循就是公共工程的部分能夠"},{"start":15707.694,"end":15710.777,"text":"總而言之要有目標好不好好OK謝謝您好謝謝羅志強委員"},{"start":15729.646,"end":15734.03,"text":"邀請邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員不在現場邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員不在現場邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員不在現場"},{"start":15748.524,"end":15753.489,"text":"陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在現場陳亭飛委員陳亭飛委員陳亭飛委員陳亭飛委員不在現場鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在現場鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在現場"},{"start":15772.205,"end":15776.969,"text":"賴氏寶委員 賴氏寶委員 賴氏寶委員 賴氏寶委員不在現場高金樹梅委員 高金樹梅委員 高金樹梅委員 不在現場"},{"start":15785.407,"end":15808.655,"text":"好那登記質詢委員均與發言完畢做以下決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員中嘉賓所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報三委員與質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆的部分請行政院公共工程委員會盡速以書面答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":15822.861,"end":15822.961,"text":"請勿模仿"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:39:29 - 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MANGA"},{"start":1504.326,"end":1516.798,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1587.082,"end":1588.333,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1860.964,"end":1873.461,"text":"好我們現在會議開始我們請總命報告出席人數報告全體會本會委員出席是4位已足法定人數好現在進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事記錄"},{"start":1876.397,"end":1892.692,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第1次全體委員會議．事入．時間113年9月25日星期三上午9時2分至9時22分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員鄭天才委員等14人主席邱委員議員"},{"start":1894.173,"end":1918.759,"text":"報告事項一一立法院各委員會組織法第三條之四規定立法院各委員會至召集委員二人由各委員會委員與每會期互選產生二宣讀本會期本會召集委員選舉人名冊選舉事項選舉立法院第11屆第二會期本會召集委員一立法院各委員會召集委員選舉辦法第五條規定召集委員之選舉以五計民單計法"},{"start":1920.979,"end":1940.397,"text":"票選之但經各該委員會全體委員或經各黨團及未參加黨團之該委員會委員之書面同意亦得以推選方式行之主席宣告推選呂委員玉玲及邱委員志偉二人為本院第11屆第2會期本會召集委員散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1945.953,"end":1947.914,"text":"委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。宣讀完畢"},{"start":1966.609,"end":1992.902,"text":"首先中央氣象署今天持續的宣布中度颱風山頓海上路上颱風的警報請大家做好充足的防颱準備照顧好自己也保護好家園謝謝大家本日議程排定公平會公平交易委員會的業務報告現在請李主委報告"},{"start":2002.16,"end":2025.66,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進以及公平會的同仁大家早安我今天很榮幸能夠代表公平交易委員會來經濟委員會向各位提出業務報告在這裡也同時要謝謝我們經濟委員會長期以來對公平交易法業務的支持以下我請就公平會近期重要的業務報告來向各位"},{"start":2026.28,"end":2050.09,"text":"做簡單的說明第一點是執法維護市場競爭秩序公平會的主要任務是依據公平交易法以及多層次傳銷管理法來查處業者違法的行為並且追蹤後續的改正情形來確保市場的競爭秩序那近期查獲的違法案件包括我們處分土木基石工會等聯合訂定收費標準全聯違反"},{"start":2053.171,"end":2053.411,"text":"請各位參考書面報告"},{"start":2073.315,"end":2087.902,"text":"第二點是審查結合的申報案件依據公平交易法的規定超過一定門檻的結合案件必須要向公平交易委員會提出申報我們近期審查的重要案件包括禁止"},{"start":2088.462,"end":2089.723,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2115.814,"end":2116.054,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2137.288,"end":2165.261,"text":"第三點是重視數位經濟及永續發展我們都知道數位經濟跟永續發展是全球經濟發展的兩大潮流我們在前年發布數位經濟競爭政策白皮書完整的論述在數位經濟發展下執法機關應有的執法方向以及立場這份白皮書被國際知名的競爭法出版商評選為最佳反托勞斯寫作獎也是亞洲唯一的"},{"start":2166.121,"end":2166.361,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2184.84,"end":2210.703,"text":"第4點是完備競爭法次為了完備競爭法規我們持續檢討主管的法規近期已經完成多層次傳轄案件的處理原則事業發展侵害著作權商標權以及專利權的警告函處理原則以及終止調查案件的處理原則等等的修正作業也嚴密修正公平交易法來提升本會的執法效能"},{"start":2211.644,"end":2233.706,"text":"第5點是查查不實廣告為了有效規制網路的不實廣告我們一直持續的在辦理網路廣告的查查計畫而且與內政部衛生福利部等相關廣告主管機關一起合作來打擊不實的廣告維護交易秩序保護消費者的權益另外我們也持續"},{"start":2235.268,"end":2248.943,"text":"強化不實廣告的規範宣導工作：定期跟各地方機關政府辦理不實廣告的法規案例宣導說明會 增進業者以及民眾對不實廣告的規範的瞭解"},{"start":2249.924,"end":2271.573,"text":"第6推廣競爭文化．近期重要的倡議工作．包括辦理克制化的公平交易法．對業者量身定做．辦理各種講習跟交流．同時我們也辦理產業宣導說明會．與法官學院合作辦理法官研習會．"},{"start":2273.293,"end":2284.94,"text":"頒禮大專院校的合作宣導活動也持續發行電子報提供服務中心法律諮詢服務以及發布新版的認識公平交易法"},{"start":2286.141,"end":2294.783,"text":"第7點是主辦大型的國際研討會公平會在今年6月主辦2024年臺灣競爭政策及競爭法國際研討會總計有國內外競爭法學者專家超過200個人參加這會場這個非常的盛大熱烈的交流也獲得來賓的肯定"},{"start":2310.796,"end":2324.104,"text":"另外經過公平會不斷的努力我們建個10年再次成功的舉辦今年在臺北主辦國際競爭網絡也就是ICN的結合研討會這個研討會將會在11月舉辦預計會邀請全球的ICN會員政府機關跟非政府機關200位參加"},{"start":2339.754,"end":2351.787,"text":"深化國際的參與競爭法的政策跟執法是非常具有國際性的為了使本會的施政能夠符合國際趨勢而且強化我們跟全球執法的脈動連結我們向來積極參與國際組織的活動"},{"start":2356.572,"end":2374.646,"text":"：推動雙邊交流合作：為了向國際展現我們對於競爭法國際交流的重視：我個人今年也親自率團參加第23屆的ICN年會：擔任報告人展現我國公平交易法的執法成效：同時也親自出席第19屆東亞競爭政策高峰會議第16屆"},{"start":2379.63,"end":2407.525,"text":"東亞競爭法與競爭政策會議其他重要的國際參與情形請各位參閱我們的書面報告那以上是我簡單的針對近期公平會的業務做簡要的說明也敬請各位委員繼續給本會支持與指導以上報告謝謝好現在我們會場有兩位委員請問委員上次會議意思錄有無錯誤"},{"start":2409.196,"end":2409.656,"text":"有請主委"},{"start":2440.18,"end":2451.153,"text":"請立主委主委我們公平會是一個仲裁單位還是一個心理單位"},{"start":2457.605,"end":2457.705,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2474.805,"end":2494.682,"text":"公平交易政策法規之擬定審議專業活動及經濟情況之調查違反公平交易法案件之調查與處分多層次傳銷政策法規之擬定及有關案件之調查與處分"},{"start":2499.409,"end":2515.454,"text":"所以他是一個仲裁單位他不是心理這是矛盾你怎麼可能又仲裁又心理這是根本兩個矛盾的作為所以光是你對於你的職長就已經是模糊不清了所以你才會把"},{"start":2516.825,"end":2545.096,"text":"這個剛才看到您的這個業績報告這個也蠻替你高興的你對於各行各業不管是營造業服務業你都有介入調查甚至有一些查處所以你們特別去把工多層次傳銷一直放入在你的本身的業務當中本席都認這個認為是你們是這個拿一塊石頭砸自己的腳"},{"start":2545.956,"end":2567.253,"text":"所以我也有提說這個就業務就移給這個經濟部你們又很堅持那你怎麼可能做到新力跟仲裁呢好 第二個針對本席啊真的對於多層次傳銷要新力的話好 既然你說你們要放在這邊也要新力我一直主張許可制換掉現在的這個報備制你才能良幣驅逐劣幣"},{"start":2572.952,"end":2599.812,"text":"好 那這個你們也不踩好 那我們來看現在的多層次傳銷保護基金會我們簡稱傳保會我們來看他現在呢 有哪些異議啊好 我們現在這一次的呢專業的董事代表專業性不足第二個呢 重外商跟親本土第三本席有一個具體的要求好 傳保會長期向傳銷事業收取保惠費基金呢 已經多少錢了 3億元"},{"start":2601.873,"end":2609.578,"text":"也就是說業者繳的民脂民膏無法發揮保護傳銷商的功能所以本席呢下一個定義就是現在您的作為一個評語公平會的帶領下傳保會是長期毫無作為的公平會怎麼會去帶領一個產業呢好那確實是你想帶領所以你們又毫無作為又怎麼沒作為呢先不降新利你連房幣也沒作為"},{"start":2627.289,"end":2644.146,"text":"縱觀傳保會開始的103年到現在113年10年了離譜的是什麼從來沒有一件協助傳銷商的訴訟你去完成一件代償而致死受害的傳銷商還是得自尋其他管道自救"},{"start":2645.973,"end":2664.818,"text":"傳保會為什麼種外商跟清本土來我們就把這一次的名單拿起來我們有幾個代表有傳銷事業代表董事傳銷商代表董事然後有這個學者專家代表董事以及監察人我們來看傳銷商事業董事這三個人當中有兩個就外商"},{"start":2665.918,"end":2672.823,"text":"你們就直接找直銷協會推薦 這個表很清楚那你們傳銷商的代表 連基層都會受害的傳銷商代表你們還是找外商而且這個外商都是美商關於這個公平會叫做美商的公平會你們就是捍衛美商的利益捍衛美商傳銷商的利益的公平會"},{"start":2692.536,"end":2717.29,"text":"這個當中除了聯法一席為本土的代表就是在傳銷事業其餘的傳銷事業跟傳銷商全部都是美商再來以往多層次傳銷工會我們有工會喔工會是本土全部都是本國的喔拿著自己的血汗錢打天下還能夠立足台灣放眼全球過往的傳銷商工會理事長是當然懂事這個理事長是會換的"},{"start":2720.612,"end":2742.116,"text":"沒有特定的但是你們這屆當中就把它排除在外了好那再來看這個學者專家這邊有4個12345這5個這3個全部叫做公平會幫要嘛就是公平會政府官員退休要嘛就是公平會的委員卸任好嗎那再來2個學者這2個學者他們學有專精但"},{"start":2746.497,"end":2764.538,"text":"就不是傳銷的本質也不是傳也不懂傳銷產業破缺需求的門外漢好本席具體的要求在一個月內你要完成這幾件事情第一個完成調整傳保會的董事比例增加本土專業代表所謂專業就是瞭解這個產業的"},{"start":2766.5,"end":2768.081,"text":"財政部下的銀行跟消費者之間的平益中心"},{"start":2793.63,"end":2796.852,"text":"第3重新檢討傳保會存在的必要檢視法源正式的回文到底傳保費是屬於公部門的法人還是民間團體的組織"},{"start":2810.381,"end":2824.302,"text":"並配合修改章程最後為何董事的臨選沒有規避旋轉門所以公平會現在是心力不成除弊為果而傳保會是沒有存在的必要針對本席做的這4項要求您的回應"},{"start":2825.563,"end":2852.696,"text":"謝謝委員我簡單說明第一個我們在選董事的時候有請工會協會各單位提出推薦名單那工會只推薦一名這一名資格不符所以工會代表這次沒有那是因為他提名的就是只有一名這一名是資格不符的那第二個就是說傳保會是一個財團法人所以他沒有所謂的旋轉門條款因為他不是盈利事業"},{"start":2853.756,"end":2858.981,"text":"那你所有的董監事都你在主導啊那個董監事我們有一個領選的那個主委我為什麼說是公部門是公部門的財團法百分百投資還是說他是呢百分之像中鋼啊或者像我們一些財團法人政府投資49對啊那怎麼可以有公平會的官員在裡面呢"},{"start":2880.879,"end":2909.154,"text":"你怎麼可以主導這個公平會的是那個傳保會的所有的人事跟政策方向呢矛盾點就在這邊啊好在這麼多的這個董事當中公平會所推出去的代表名額有限那我們還是從傳銷商傳銷事業學者專家裡面來臨選而且有臨選辦法歷年來都是這樣的一個組成您睜眼說一下話來看一下這個名單專家學者"},{"start":2910.154,"end":2928.31,"text":"五席當中就三行叫公平會的公平幫了五席就佔了一半了那再看之前您說這個是公會沒有推薦好那沒關係您說了就算所以本席就叫你一個月內趕快的召開臨時董建事會來調整這樣的董建事"},{"start":2931.232,"end":2943.518,"text":"可以做到嗎我們董監事會是有任期的除非他有發生什麼特別的情況否則我們應該讓這個傳保會的董事這個業務的執行有他的穩定性所以繼續收錢不辦事繼續的讓業者繳錢傳保會並不是沒有辦事您提出數據說明"},{"start":2952.603,"end":2952.623,"text":"數量"},{"start":2981.513,"end":2981.873,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3009.514,"end":3010.194,"text":"請邱映穎委員質詢請李主委"},{"start":3045.675,"end":3055.085,"text":"主委長,我想我們每一次在這邊質詢的時候都會問到這個多層次傳銷的問題根據你們的統計,現在多層次傳銷的營業額已經高達到1083.7億元,今年又增加了29.1億元"},{"start":3067.839,"end":3068.76,"text":"公平會主動移送調查的詐騙案有143件"},{"start":3088.069,"end":3091.31,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3117.057,"end":3144.162,"text":"主委這個是我們調出來齁這一家公司曾經被公平會裁罰過裁罰的金額只有10萬塊裁罰的原因是因為他做多層次傳銷沒有向公平會報備所以被裁罰了10萬塊那之後呢裁罰了之後這一家公司說他不做多層次傳銷你們也就沒有繼續再查了"},{"start":3145.523,"end":3145.723,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":3170.967,"end":3192.906,"text":"當時就是10年前曾經沒有報備就從事多層次長效 這個我們處罰過了你們這個處罰10萬塊 你如果對比他現在的吸金的程度 違法吸金的程度 這個其實只是零毛一角就是說當時處罰的是沒有報備 那至於吸金那一定有更嚴重的刑法的一些制裁"},{"start":3194.565,"end":3195.626,"text":"可不可以有一個可以提供的資料可以給本席"},{"start":3212.483,"end":3212.804,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3231.806,"end":3245.281,"text":"現在不只是多層次傳銷現在大家最厲害的最喜歡講的是淨零碳排所以淨零碳排的課程也很多這個我不知道公平會有沒有開始立案調查讓您看一下現在有這種"},{"start":3248.064,"end":3268.64,"text":"不知道哪裡報出來的博士然後他去歐洲就說他是這個臺灣的代表那甚至呢也有沒有立案就開始在違法招生這個影片呢是在4月的時候就已經在網路上流傳了這一家叫探淨林學院他立案的日期呢是在2024年的5月16號"},{"start":3270.962,"end":3277.691,"text":"但是畢業學員的影片在2024年的4月22號就已經開始在YouTube上面流傳"},{"start":3278.786,"end":3304.82,"text":"主委這要不要查跟委員說明不是只有查這家公司假借淨林碳排然後開一大堆奇奇怪怪的課程以淨林碳排開這個招生也好那他說他邀請了什麼偉大的人或是多麼專業的人如果事實沒有這個我們向來就會查前一陣子還說是跟經濟部合作或者是跟其他單位合作這個我們都會查也有處罰的案例"},{"start":3304.94,"end":3324.092,"text":"你們都會查的意思是說你們還沒有開始查那如果還沒有開始查是什麼時候要開始查你這個違法招生我們有一件已經立案調查那再來就是說他用這個補習班的方式去招生也同時違反這個補習教育相關法令這個我們跟教育部會有一個合作的機制來遏阻這種不實的行為"},{"start":3326.994,"end":3349.376,"text":"主委我想我們現在提出的這些東西其實我們過去都一直不斷的在強調公平會很多時候是屬於被動的立場就是有人檢舉你們才去查你們很少會去主動發掘然後主動去立案調查我覺得這個是公平會比較弱的地方所以常常都是立法委員在這裡質詢然後或者是說你們有接到誰的檢舉才開始去調查"},{"start":3351.918,"end":3378.84,"text":"讓大家會覺得公平會其實效能不彰但公平會是不是真的效能不彰其實就你們來說你們其實做了很多事情嘛你也覺得很委屈嘛接下來我要問的這個大概會跟人事案有關主委您的任期會到明年的1月31號任滿正常來講立法院應該要在今年的10月底行政院應該今年的10月底就要提名新的主委人選"},{"start":3380.281,"end":3381.242,"text":"要送到立法院來審查"},{"start":3410.56,"end":3426.374,"text":"不只是要杯葛甚至呢任期屆滿之後如果沒有通過人事同意權的話他就要刪除所謂的過度條款要刪除所謂的過度條款主委您知道這個事情嗎我知道"},{"start":3427.401,"end":3451.314,"text":"我知道好那你們有沒有什麼因應措施或者是任期結束之後你會直接拍拍屁股就走人還是說你們會有人留下來撐撐到這個人事統一權通過那假如立法院強行把這個所謂的過度條款刪除的話公平會能不能運作該如何運作怎麼樣持續運作"},{"start":3452.355,"end":3455.978,"text":"主委來請您說明一下我們有4位委員會在明年1月底任期屆滿所以現任的7位委員會剩3位當時立法設計7個人就是大家各有專長跟經驗好好去執行我們應該做的這些工作所以我還是希望這一屆的這個任期能夠如期來舉行"},{"start":3475.074,"end":3498.386,"text":"如果沒有完成這個任命,第一個7個人剩3個人,那3個人如果有請假,或者是有留會的情形,尤其是我們結合案件,我舉個例子好了,我們現在Foodpanda跟結合,正在結合,如果沒有辦法在法定,正在結合申報,如果在法定期間內沒有做出決定,他就可以結合"},{"start":3500.421,"end":3523.121,"text":"如果我們沒有這個足夠的這個委員的人數或者是法定人數不足或者是很少的這個人數做成決議第一個這個決議的內容是否周延是一個問題那假設留會或者是人員不足這個案子結合我們的結合是這樣子沒有過了這個審議期以後你們沒有沒有任何的裁處的話沒有任何的裁決的話他就是直接就結合了嘛"},{"start":3525.723,"end":3541.758,"text":"所以你現在要講就是說如果是這樣的話對於未來你們在審查這樣的一個重大的結合案件其實是會遇到相當大的不管是結合案件或是違法的聯合限制競爭不實廣告的行為在做決議的時候在執行上恐怕會有一些摯愛難行"},{"start":3542.679,"end":3560.689,"text":"其實公平會看起來其實它不是有太大政治性的一個部會但是對於台灣的很多的公平交易事項或者是違規的事、廣告不實的事項等等它其實是有一個重大的裁決權的單位啦所以我們當然也不希望"},{"start":3562.791,"end":3578.906,"text":"這個大家是這樣子用比較不理性的方式去刪除掉這樣所謂的過度條款即使不能在任期完成之前任期屆滿之前完成人事同意權但是我覺得所謂的過度條款也不應該任意的刪除啦"},{"start":3582.049,"end":3609.098,"text":"當然如果能夠在任期結束之前完成人事權的審查這當然是最好所以我想我們也會來努力但是我覺得公平會你們自己也要有一套應對的措施或者是說也要有一套說帖出來這個立法院的這個交戰常常是瞬息萬變那對於政務官來講對於你們的這個行政單位來說你們其實也要有一套"},{"start":3609.898,"end":3610.198,"text":"請賴瑞榮委員質詢請李主委"},{"start":3643.764,"end":3662.407,"text":"主委我想請教你現在民怨之首是什麼民怨最高的是什麼事件詐騙公平會也是政府機關的一環政府應該全力的來打詐這件事情那我想請教一下公平會作為打詐的事情有什麼樣的角色可以來做"},{"start":3664.629,"end":3690.872,"text":"打炸是整個政府機關都要動起來去改善它去阻止它那所以在行政院有一個跨部會小組公平會也是其中的一員公平會有什麼樣的作為更積極的作為來做嗎譬如說我們負責如何去試炸阻炸這部分我們也應該要責無旁貸主委你認為公平會有沒有善盡到打炸跟整個防炸這樣的工作有沒有善盡盡了最大的努力我們有盡努力在"},{"start":3691.833,"end":3709.128,"text":"我希望盡了最大努力我認為公平有努力但是我認為還有空間我們來看一下公平會在查處開罰這個當然是不時廣告包括不時的廣告跟不時網路廣告從110年的63件到110年的81、92到今年1到8月的51大概是這樣的規模一樣不會超過百件那網路廣告一樣大概也是不到百件"},{"start":3717.836,"end":3718.357,"text":"公平交易委員會"},{"start":3733.893,"end":3758.431,"text":"裏面 如果這是3個月而已啦 但是你回推回來大概一年有12萬件12萬件以公平會來查處的話 大概不到0.1%我的意思是說 有沒有各單位都窮盡了各種方法盡了最大努力防詐 我認為公平會在不實廣告裏面有你很大的空間你的這個報告裏面也提到第5點 查實不實廣告"},{"start":3759.532,"end":3786.728,"text":"對我來說 除了查實不實廣告外 詐騙其實是更嚴重的一個不實廣告他 連空的 連什麼都沒有 就可以去給你做不實 給你詐騙所以我認為其實在公平交易法裡面 有給予公平會足夠的空間 去來做打詐這樣的動作就是你不要擔憂 你打了他之後 他要不要來宿院 他要不要來那個 那是另外一件事情 但是你連打都不打的時候 這些的詐騙就非常的猖獗主委有沒有同這樣的看法"},{"start":3787.501,"end":3811.754,"text":"我認同要各部會看到這個有詐欺的形式都要去處理所以我們在監控這個不時廣的廣告的過程主委先不要提到各部會去啦公平會有沒有善盡你所有的方法來打詐我想沒有最好只有更好然後我們去我們可以有在努力的空間不敢說百分之百已經做到最好但是這個打詐這件事情是各部會都要通過"},{"start":3812.174,"end":3829.85,"text":"現在有很多的網路的 現在最多的就是投資詐騙最多了 網路的甚至謝金河甚至許貴雅 常常都 他們不斷的澄清我沒有 我沒有推薦大家投資 但這些東西不斷的在臉書在很多的平台上不斷被投放 在這件事情上面公平會有沒有角色可以做處理"},{"start":3830.27,"end":3847.681,"text":"我想對這個廣告他如果內容不實影響交易自信公平法21條一定可以處理所以這個其實可以嗎一定是不實嗎因為他當事人都已經澄清我沒有做這樣的宣傳鼓勵大家來買這支股票鼓勵大家買頭所以其實你覺得這是比不實更嚴重的一個狀況下當然"},{"start":3849.282,"end":3873.088,"text":"如果涉及到詐欺那已經刑事犯罪了 刑事的犯罪他的處罰我只講的是公平會在你的角色上你有沒有辦法去做處理我認為公平會是有角色可以做處理因為我講過了這是比不死更嚴重的不死的問題他是用空的去賣的賣的是一個空的東西但是你們自我限縮覺得這是詐騙所以詐騙歸速發部詐騙歸警政署"},{"start":3877.429,"end":3898.188,"text":"麻煩了也完全難處理我的意思是說如果你有辦法給予開罰的時候因為我們對於這個實名制之後開罰的時候你開罰得到他罰了之後他們才會有壓力之後這件事情才會銷聲匿跡你一定要從源頭去管治掉這件事情要不然一年光這樣的案件網路的違法的投資廣告就12萬件一年就12萬件而你們開罰不到100件如果你開罰個"},{"start":3901.01,"end":3923.217,"text":"五千件一萬件你只要開發五千件一萬件他們覺得有相當大的壓力我跟你講下個月隔個月之後馬上少一半以上甚至於更低因為你政府有沒有用你善盡你的你剛也提到了公平交易法裡面的第21條有空間我們來看一下公平交易法第21條有嚴打臉書跟購物網站不實廣告的你們對MOMO也開發過"},{"start":3924.637,"end":3935.019,"text":"只要就商品的相關及注意影響交易決定的虛偽不實跟引人錯誤的表示開罰10萬9月12號臉書也開罰了5萬9月10號的這個也開罰了10萬包括臉書也被開罰了10萬包括這個8月8號的PC home包括7月29號的臉書有關於購買房子的部分也開罰了100萬所以其實你們是有空間有能力去做處理的"},{"start":3952.043,"end":3970.411,"text":"但是你們自我限縮你們覺得這是不實行為我要再次強調詐騙是比不實不實的廣告更嚴重的不實更嚴重的不實你們當然有權利去開罰當你們開罰了以後我不認為這些人有什麼好有溯源的空間完全沒有溯源空間因為就是假的嘛就是騙的嘛"},{"start":3971.071,"end":3985.821,"text":"當你開罰了以後這些案件會大量的下降當你開罰了之後臉書沒有辦法去迴避說這是你個人的行為臉書有90%的收益是來自於廣告收益如果他縱容這些詐騙的廣告不斷的出現其他形容是共犯"},{"start":3986.701,"end":4001.418,"text":"全部的詐騙行為大家都看得懂主委你看得懂吧你看一般人多數人有一半的人我認為都看得懂那個一看就是詐騙廣告臉書會不知道嗎?詐騙的人會不知道嗎?但是他不需要一半的人騙到他只要10%的人被騙到獲利就非常的巨大"},{"start":4002.148,"end":4026.794,"text":"那公平會在這件事情上有沒有善盡他的職責我認為現在是沒有的所以我這一兩年不斷來講這件事情公平我希望善盡你該有的職責讓你成為是一個積極行政積極作為的機關而不是消極保守當你也知道詐騙是全民最反彈對政府的信任最低的時候而你在這個位置上面正有機會可以做一些事的時候卻放著不做這不是很可惜嗎"},{"start":4027.774,"end":4050.265,"text":"主委委員我容許我說明一下不時廣告在公平交易法裡面他賣商品他賣服務那如果這個行為是說你來投資後就可以賺多少錢基本上這是一個投資的一個廣告那我們要看在公平交易法裡面是不時不時是對商品服務那如果有合資21條主委我認為這個都是你自我的限縮"},{"start":4050.965,"end":4078.667,"text":"就是你限縮之後所以反倒是你有賣東西這個東西的品質功能不太好這個會被開罰賣騙你的欸不會開罰沒事同樣是不實一個是全部空的完全沒有的不實一種是有東西的不實你只開罰有東西的不實你對於空的騙的假的完全的這種不實你是不開罰的我認為這個是公平會自我的限縮你應該要跟著時代的記憶形成我講了嘛你開罰了如果任何的書院敢進來書院再來談嘛"},{"start":4080.448,"end":4092.438,"text":"來疏遠 給行政院來疏遠嘛包括行政法院都可以來疏遠你可以來談談看嘛但是你連這樣的開罰都不願意做的時候這些的猖獗到這個程度嘛我講了嘛 光這樣的詐騙一年12萬件"},{"start":4095.523,"end":4111.839,"text":"明人們嘴巴講破頭了謝金河說我沒有我沒有許貴亞說我沒有沒有講過頭了沒有用詐騙的人數不斷地在增加公平會明明手上有一個武器可做為什麼不做我再講一下你們對於拍賣網站的部分你們對行動的這些你們都有開發過了"},{"start":4113.502,"end":4139.034,"text":"在於公平交易法21條不實廣告：對廣告主：對廣告代理業者：對廣告媒體業者：對廣告見證者都可以開罰你能不能善盡這樣的功能 沒有你們自我限縮 自我保守你們只要開罰 不只是對實際在詐騙這些人開罰甚至於如果你也找臉書來談你90%的獲益是來自於廣告連這種不實廣告我們一般人看到都知道那是假的"},{"start":4140.515,"end":4149.045,"text":"臉書會不知道嗎臉書用AIC搜尋一下往下看沒有錢怎麼辦如果用小錢賺大錢主委這一看就知道這有問題嘛對不對"},{"start":4150.812,"end":4177.67,"text":"這個你知道我知道百分之五十人可能都知道但是百分之二三十人被騙了就很嚴重了臉書會不知道嗎臉書會沒有能力來遏止這樣事情嗎要不然你要貼這件廣告在社群或在臉書上貼你至少要有更清楚的確切的洩明嘛現在沒有反正登上去臉書也沒有的事這是各自的你們的言論自由這是那個然後臉書沒事廣告費賺得很高興然後或者是整個社群的賺得很高興那"},{"start":4179.331,"end":4203.494,"text":"政府機關的這個不歸他這個不歸我就變成最後所有的受害者就是一般的老百姓那人民大院啊政府為什麼對這件事情沒有辦法作為我再強調一次速發部開始也要有作為了沒有錯但是包括警政署很努力在做事後歸事後但事前一定有一套機制可以做更強的一個防治上的效果如果我們做了更多事情的效果的話警政署不用忙翻天整天在那邊抓"},{"start":4204.235,"end":4224.654,"text":"包括也不用很多人被詐騙完了之後還要求他下架整天發文要求臉書下架也要求臉書下架臉書就有能力去識別這是不是真的嘛如果是假的你不用全部嘛你把現在的詐騙廣告有一半你自己篩選掉一半是假的就造福了很多的人了嘛這做得到嗎我認為絕對做得到臉書做得到公平會做得到那為什麼不做"},{"start":4225.95,"end":4252.578,"text":"主委可不可以再說明一下我想跟委員說明一個行為如果是個犯罪行為應該由司法好好把他制裁那從這個公平交易法的這個不實廣告的內容他主要是一個行政法那如果他同時是一個一個刑事的案件主委我還是要再跟你強調我懂你的說法啦但是我講的是現在政府有沒有窮盡他各種方法去做處理即使行政法裡面這個行政法也可以該給他適度的壓力的啦"},{"start":4254.42,"end":4264.016,"text":"沒有理由沒有理由所有這些的臉書到台灣來的時候然後在這件事情上面是這麼的毫無壓力的啦賺取了這麼多的利益甚至於"},{"start":4265.491,"end":4290.314,"text":"詐騙者在這邊利用這樣的平台奪得這麼多利益而我們是無能為力拒約束他的這個是交代不過去的啦主委你講的我都懂你講的都司法反正但是我講的是行政作為行政有沒有這件事情上讓人民感受到積極行政積極作為積極打詐積極反詐騙這樣的作為如果這樣的作為還是這麼消極的話我們當然會要求書發部當然會要求其他部委但我認為公平會該有更強的作為啦"},{"start":4290.854,"end":4307.29,"text":"不然網費的一個這個機關有這樣的能力在做全世界其他國家很多公平交易的機制也在做很多的努力嘛我認為台灣的公平會可以做出更好的一個做法我期待在這一段時間內一個月內我希望你們針對這個部分有積極的作為你只要開罰的一件兩件三件"},{"start":4307.99,"end":4314.714,"text":"這些詐騙的就知道公平會已經開始對這個事情已經重視了出手了這樣自然就處理同時間你們可以跟臉書跟Meta幾個講了我們開始重視問題了我不是不能罰你如果你無法遏阻這樣的不實廣告嚴重超不實的不實廣告不斷的出現的話我對你這廣告的媒體業者我也開罰"},{"start":4328.502,"end":4348.793,"text":"你不能夠賺到這麼多的錢而卻縱容漠視這個違法的詐騙廣告不斷的持續出現你賺這樣錢是不義之財我認為這個要讓這些業者做到而他們有沒有能力做到?絕對有能力做到AI隨便寫個數字一查一下這些什麼稍微有些廣告貼文是貼的一模一樣的這個群組貼那個群組貼那個群組貼這個群組詐騙那個群組詐騙每個詐騙完全無作為"},{"start":4354.068,"end":4365.074,"text":"臉書無作為政府無作為這樣大家怎麼能接受好不好我希望主委怎麼樣有個作為一個月內給我一份報告好嗎好不好針對這件事情怎麼樣有作為給我一份又給我一個報告好謝謝主委請張家健委員質詢"},{"start":4384.727,"end":4387.669,"text":"主席我想請李主委請李主委李主委早安我想呢大家整個委員會每一個委員都希望你有積極作為我也很好奇說你心目中是不是覺得公平會其實沒有那麼重要就是一個可有可無的單位"},{"start":4407.517,"end":4412.06,"text":"本期想要首先先問你Uber在今年的5月14號已經宣布收購台灣的Full Panda目前全案的進度為何?辦理的到什麼程度?"},{"start":4428.653,"end":4451.805,"text":"跟委員說明我們是5月收到這個案子那因為這個案子是會涉及到市場結構的改變在公平會審查會涉及到市場結構改變的案子所以進步到什麼程度目前請這個當事人補正還在補正階段所以還在補正階段你也還沒有決定說到底要不要核准"},{"start":4452.165,"end":4452.265,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4482.665,"end":4499.978,"text":"實材成本就已經佔了大概是六成左右那電租再加15%的話利潤大概就是25%現在的店家一定都會要漲價來因應這件事情那如果未來的環境更惡化吃虧的始終是消費者"},{"start":4500.798,"end":4522.651,"text":"包括說如何保障這15萬外送員工的權益我想這個是公平會也需要去考量在你同意或不同意之前你一定要去考量那包括這一點這點可能跟你比較有關係外送平台都會收取月費跟年費主委你有加入外送平台嗎"},{"start":4523.789,"end":4551.186,"text":"我本身沒有對假設你有的話或者是你們公平會有有這個職員有的話你可以好好請教他一下都會宣稱說加入會員可以讓消費者享有免運的優惠享有會員的專屬折扣更便宜省更多但是目前呢有網友在網路發現同品項的會員跟非會員顯示的價格竟然不一樣"},{"start":4551.926,"end":4560.731,"text":"反而沒有買會員的餐點會更便宜那這一點是不是應該你要介入的這是不是不實廣告如果他有這個會員跟非會員他對會員有宣稱有什麼優惠沒有達到這個優惠的內容"},{"start":4574.258,"end":4576.68,"text":"所以本席現在就告訴你說你應該主動積極的我現在跟你講的你到底聽不聽得懂"},{"start":4594.412,"end":4608.938,"text":"我再跟你講的是他已經說會員會更便宜但是會員沒有更便宜那這個要整個 我的這個案子我有了解是這樣是不是不實廣告這樣是不是不實廣告是不是不實廣告嘛 我告訴你嘛我問你啊 我問你說"},{"start":4616.681,"end":4623.222,"text":"他告訴你說加入會員會更便宜但事實上沒有更便宜這樣是不是不實廣告?他講得非常清楚啊免運費然後會員有專屬折扣啊假設同樣一個品項你非會員比會員便宜這樣子是不是不實廣告?是啊你要主動積極為什麼你會這麼的"},{"start":4644.568,"end":4647.691,"text":"我們應該要去瞭解他所謂的比較便宜是指哪一些面向"},{"start":4665.455,"end":4666.996,"text":"當然是餐點的價格阿 如果假設他餐點點A點A餐點 會員價跟非會員價 非會員價"},{"start":4678.027,"end":4698.354,"text":"還比較便宜這些費用包括餐廳的這個費用還有外上員的費用還有他的服務費那這樣子是不是不實廣告我就問你我假設這個是屬實這樣是不是不實廣告廣告所謂比較便宜是哪一些我假設問你說是用A品項去比較的話"},{"start":4703.496,"end":4707.698,"text":"我還在跟委員說明我們必須說他講的是什麼具體的內容我覺得你的頭腦有一點問題你完全不理解我現在在問你的是什麼我再跟你說"},{"start":4728.427,"end":4734.118,"text":"為什麼大家都會覺得公平會可有可無好像是沒有在作為好像是消極為什麼因為"},{"start":4737.281,"end":4742.845,"text":"在韓國我不曉得你有沒有看過這個例子韓國的公平會開罰了Coupon38億為什麼開罰因為他濫用濫用這個評論這個韓國的知名電商Coupon6月在韓國的公平交易委員會開罰他34億台幣的罰單為什麼"},{"start":4761.798,"end":4772.162,"text":"因為他們使用不公平的演算法外加大量動員員工去撰寫這個商品評價藉此誤導消費者做選擇那我現在就想要想要問你啊主委主委我問你假設臺灣也是啊這個coupon在臺灣也可以看得到啊同樣一個例子你在臺灣的公平會你要不要作為"},{"start":4790.472,"end":4807.921,"text":"第一個就是說如果有不實廣告如果有違反我們公平交易法的規定我們當然要去處理所以本席現在就提醒你啊臺灣的coupon你要不要去積極調查coupon它在韓國的這個經營模式譬如說它商品來源一模一樣這個虛偽的評論在臺灣也看得到也買得到這麼明顯的一個案例你也沒有要積極作為啊"},{"start":4817.523,"end":4831.754,"text":"如果有其他的電商平台也使用這種虛偽的購買心得是不是也違反我們的台灣公平法台灣公平交易法你要怎麼處理不是代言是他發動內部的員工去寫不實的評論"},{"start":4838.358,"end":4866.832,"text":"公平網有處罰的規定但是這個案子我們目前沒有看到我相信你目前沒有看到現在就是提醒你去看嘛現在提醒你去調查嘛難道是我要整理好幫你調查是嗎所以本席想要回到我之前說的話公平會要面對的是不斷進步的商業科技的挑戰公平會不能只靠吹哨者"},{"start":4868.479,"end":4890.771,"text":"你們要主動的對業者宣導甚至是主動的調查才能夠落實保障市場的秩序才可以變成守護這個市場正常運作的守護者否則你太被動啦你現在今天從早到晚講的都是這個交給司法這個交給什麼什麼調查那我再另外問你我再另外問你一個"},{"start":4894.997,"end":4900.462,"text":"不只是訂餐有會員比較便宜的問題叫車也有這種狀況根據媒體報導你的手機快沒電的時候叫車會比較貴因為透過數據的系統分析你的分析你的手機快沒電了所以你的需求比較急迫因此抬高價錢這個並非是單純市場的供需原則而是做出分析比較之後"},{"start":4923.761,"end":4923.981,"text":"請張淇凱委員質詢"},{"start":4966.92,"end":4969.381,"text":"主席 請主委 請你主委委員長 主委 早上好我們今天這回來維護臺灣外送產業環境的整體利益決心今天剛才蔣先生說的 我們要積極一點這位來錄裏你最近有注意一個案子嗎 9月份的時候9月份的時候"},{"start":4994.961,"end":5023.16,"text":"護編打因為沒有提供外送員的強制汽車責任保險然後被台南市政府給他裁罰了你有注意到這個新聞嗎有嘛齁後來台南市政府還敗訴因為換言之說他是保險不是屬於地方的自治的一個事項撤銷的原處分然後現在台南市政府要提上訴嘛齁我提到這個案子是因為護編打跟這個Uber Eats他順利如果結合以後會變成一個"},{"start":5024.124,"end":5049.426,"text":"一家獨大對不對那以後會不會變成很多地方的自治條例反而管不到他你有沒有思考過這個問題如果從比較積極面去想這個問題有想過這個事情嗎你看到這個新聞的時候有想到嗎一家獨大的時候會不會地方要管他們或者地方要求這個外送平台要做一些對外送員的保險啊保障啊更難做嗎對不對"},{"start":5051.633,"end":5053.334,"text":"我現在說的我們把它鎖定在9月這個9月如果是連臺南市政府都敗訴了外送員"},{"start":5080.985,"end":5107.418,"text":"這個負面打不讓他保嘛對不對那以後如果變成兩家合在一起以後這個壓力會不會更大反正更沒辦法去確保外送員的這個權益就是說地方政府或者是其他主管機關他要求外送平台做什麼事情他應該會有相關的這個法源依據或者是相關的這個行政措施那至於這些措施合以不合以有沒有一個法令的依據這就是另外一個行政政策的過程"},{"start":5109.062,"end":5131.229,"text":"公平交易法的宗旨叫你們的任務,來我們看一下,其實剛才你叫家俊會有那麼多的,不要講攻防,就是為什麼會,一個比較積,他一直在講說你不過積極面嘛公平交易法裡面你有六大任務對不對,維護消費者保護利益,確保自由跟公平競爭,12456都是很積極面的"},{"start":5135.449,"end":5152.779,"text":"三跟四稍微比較小級面那這次的併鍋案裡面大家怕到說可能有三大影響所以那時候你曾經講過你公開講過對不對包括四個面向要去審查那為什麼我從九月份這個判決切進來你也可以說你不要管阿"},{"start":5153.922,"end":5155.083,"text":"我們對結合之後會產生的各種影響都有評估而且"},{"start":5172.918,"end":5200.77,"text":"在我們的這個申請裡面我們北中南全省各地都收集不見所以我們把它鎖定用這個用臺南市政府跟護編打這個你覺得如果合併以後會不會外送員的潛力受到更大影響用這個為例子所以這個就是說結合以後對於外送員的這個不管是報酬或是價格這一方面我們都會處理至於保險就是說保險這件事情因為我不知道"},{"start":5201.57,"end":5220.287,"text":"你現在台南市政府不可以叫不定人嗎?如果是又更大的會不會更難叫?就是說他叫不定人是什麼事叫不定人不定人還是要聚在一起?如果是保險那這應該是看相關的法律怎麼適用這個新聞這個事件會不會影響到你們在決定要不要讓他合併的時候?"},{"start":5226.613,"end":5229.855,"text":"對阿可是法院判決他輸了嘛我的意思就是說你現在決定他能不能合併嘛那只有單純就保險這個事情老實講合併以後難度一定更高嘛"},{"start":5259.876,"end":5276.983,"text":"來我們看一下所以才會講說你的積極的功能要發揮好不好來我們看下一張我剛剛主委有講了你們都已經開了很多公聽會對不對你們有在努力我們前陣子台灣民眾黨你看楊瓊英、楊偉炎、林國成、易軍他們我們也開了一個公聽會來我們來討論一下我們報告的內容來下一張"},{"start":5284.298,"end":5297.791,"text":"我們有學界跟專家跟民團他們提醒至少有5件事情第一個兩大外送平台合併以後到底是誰得利這是大家最關心的第一個第二個合併以後如果外送平台片片去砍價"},{"start":5299.028,"end":5322.181,"text":"那外送員去申訴就會被停權嗎?目前這個已經在發生了就跟剛剛講保險事情是一樣的好那合併以後會不會潛入更大的損害?第三個 面對數位平台經濟的多邊性大者都獨大大者如果一直獨大資訊就不對稱了外送員受到演算法控制公平交易法的執行機關你到底有沒有去想過"},{"start":5323.499,"end":5344.945,"text":"你們有沒有足夠的量能去執法這個要好好想一下第4個現在公平交易法是不過因應要不要訂一個專法第5個日本他們本身是有最大的外送平台的所以他們叫做出錢館對不對那你們有沒有考慮在這個合併要不要併的時候考慮要不要我們台灣自己有個像日本的這個出錢館來我問4個很具體的問題來我們看一下迪雷"},{"start":5350.205,"end":5364.109,"text":"主委你回應過嘛,你說現在正在審查這些文件,之後來資料不齊全,對不對?剛剛很多委員問你的時候,你說資料又不齊全,到底站不上去資料?現在切了什麼資料?我想跟委員說明,會議時間這麼久"},{"start":5367.116,"end":5382.198,"text":"重大的結合案件本來時間就會很久比如說全年病大論發這各界也非常的有疑慮那越年越會要變病這個糖溶這個都是會花比較多的時間注意注意我們時間比較有限你們聚焦很清楚的講現在到底少了什麼資料"},{"start":5383.254,"end":5412.14,"text":"我們現在譬如說在將來的這個評估還有剛才您提到的結合的中效你這個結合對我們要評估說你的競爭利益你的經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利益那你這個結合有什麼經濟利益你綜合效果是什麼那譬如說剛才委員提到的那幾點那個就是有可能是限制競爭的不利益那你整個結合的中效是什麼我們希望他能夠所以你跟他要這些東西很好啊他怎麼會拖那麼久沒有給你"},{"start":5413.12,"end":5441.5,"text":"因為第一個就是說他他外商啦齁就外商他在這個資料的準備當中會需要跟外國總部其實可以靠時間因為外商你現在有壓力嗎沒有壓力你怎麼那你剛剛的問題都切中壓話你外商他要準備一些資料你跟他要哪些資料你剛剛回答得很好這個正常他就應該給你啊所以第一個結論他不應該再拖延這是第一個問題第二個我再問你有沒有壓力嘛"},{"start":5441.8,"end":5442.48,"text":"主委比較快好不好"},{"start":5461.647,"end":5486.797,"text":"另外你回應過嘛你說你這段時間會去徵詢利害關係人的意見對不對是包括餐廳、外送員、消費者還有相關的這個主管機關包括消保會跟勞動部是我現在在網路上面有看到勞動部已經開了8次的會議了是資料在網路上我也看到了可是沒有看到消保會跟利害關係人的會議紀錄你有跟那個消保會要這個資料嗎"},{"start":5488.536,"end":5510.869,"text":"我們有請消保會針對這個結合案提供意見提供意見有提供的嗎?消保會的意見有提供有齁那因為勞動部的都已經上網了他看不到你可以把這個紀錄給我嗎?消保會的紀錄我會後了解一下提供給委員兩週內給我兩週內給我好不好最後一個問題啦"},{"start":5515.287,"end":5535.604,"text":"那天開公聽會,很多專家寫者都問到說,裡面一個最重要的關鍵是什麼?特別是外送聯盟,你們到底準不準他合併,最重要的是相關市場的界定。就你把它界定是不是就很單純的外送平台產業。你們現在目前的界定是什麼?往哪個方向走?它很單純就是一個外送平台嗎?"},{"start":5537.026,"end":5564.423,"text":"還是有些人在提供不一樣的意見我們前一案是美食外送平台的市場接近那我們這個案子我們還要再評估甚至我們還要再跟委員在委員會裡面會去討論現在是很多專家寫者有擔心所以你那個相關市場界定要很明確好不好那我現在就是很明確的要求到你們到時候審的時候審以後的那個整個書面要公開透明給大家看好不好最後做一個總結我們希望第一個要"},{"start":5565.143,"end":5565.463,"text":"請政政全委員質詢"},{"start":5605.727,"end":5626.154,"text":"李美珠委主任委員詐騙廣告現在也是到公平會這邊那我想說詐騙廣告肯定是個不實廣告我們公平會對整個所有詐騙的那個相關的廣告相關的行為之前有沒有開出任何的罰則出來"},{"start":5630.775,"end":5657.064,"text":"我們對於不實廣告都有處罰你針對那個詐騙的部分尤其是有關於一些網路上詐騙的部分因為打詐是現在全民的公憤你把公平會在這個部分做了哪些事情到時候給本席一個書面資料完整的書面資料我們做了哪些相關的一個處罰那我接下來想問一下主任我想問一下你對目前國內的檢探政策"},{"start":5657.944,"end":5663.346,"text":"包括了探費探權探綜合還有探盤查等等是不是很了解"},{"start":5664.074,"end":5688.05,"text":"不敢說很瞭解但是有去關注都有關注嗎那因為上個禮拜四環境部發布了一個企業碳中和指引我不知道你知不知道這個事情我知道因為現在很多企業都宣稱自己的產品以達到碳中和但是因為沒有相關的標章消費者不知道說他們是真正的增綠"},{"start":5689.051,"end":5690.031,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5705.856,"end":5709.637,"text":"請問主委我們公平會是不是準備好了要接環境部丟出來這個球我想這個跨機關的合作是應該的"},{"start":5724.821,"end":5738.927,"text":"環境部指引是讓消費者知道什麼叫做碳中和碳排放跟碳移除加減之後要是零不足的時候怎麼去消底那現在就是說消費者或者是一般的企業他換稱我符合碳中和"},{"start":5740.163,"end":5763.648,"text":"環境部的指引主要是要他揭露清楚你是怎麼算的你排多少檢多少那我想問一個最基本的一個問題主委我想問一個最基本的問題因為跟碳有關的問題非常的多我想說講幾個小時候講不完我想國外碳權目前我們如何認定主委國外碳權因為碳中和裡面有一個部分一定是跟國外碳權會有關我們國外碳權目前如何認定"},{"start":5765.684,"end":5769.825,"text":"公平交易法21條這部分我想先問探權這部分因為我待會會再問到21條的事情因為像現在國際很多的一個探權的一個認證標準像VCS 像GS"},{"start":5795.914,"end":5817.543,"text":"目前我們國家都沒有認定可是像世界很多的大廠包括Apple他們包括通信他們都認定那我們怎麼去處理這個問題就公平會來講他宣稱他得到什麼認證不管是這個國際認可或不認可我們會跟環境部來"},{"start":5819.536,"end":5834.222,"text":"徵詢意見最主要就是說你說你得到哪裡的認證就必須是那裡的認證所以說跟環境部再去溝通這個部分那我目前可以接受這個狀態因為目前這個還在進行當中那我為什麼會問這個問題是因為我在上個會期我曾經問過了一個電信業者的合併案那麼我們公平會在去年就是通過兩個附帶條件的合併案"},{"start":5847.907,"end":5868.554,"text":"包括了就是遠傳病亞太去年的7月20號那麼包括了台灣大哥大病台灣之心去年的10月10號都有附帶條件那我當時也問了這個問題就說他合併之後服務品質如果嚴重下降訊號網速都不穩定但上次主委你有回應我就說"},{"start":5869.878,"end":5891.431,"text":"你說NCC本身有一個觀測小組然後公平會會跟NCC保持溝通那我想問一下目前觀測的結果是怎麼樣子我想這兩個結合案在公平會我們會去關注他有沒有履行我們付的負擔至於他這個網路品質的這個監控我們也有就是NCC有沒有結果出來"},{"start":5897.228,"end":5920.019,"text":"還要再徵詢一下退後再出來我先舉個例子給你這是消費者直接公佈出來的狀態這個其實是台灣之心被病怒台哥大之後那麼消費者用了一個臺大祭祀中心的一個軟體自己測出來的一個結果那其中下載的部分大概在1Mbps到5Mbps的速度"},{"start":5921.039,"end":5934.882,"text":"那上傳的部分在1Mbps到4Mbps左右的速度這直接大家在網路上公佈出來都很清楚那我想請問一下公平會就是主委你知道說我們正常手機4G的網路下載速度是多少嗎?"},{"start":5937.489,"end":5965.243,"text":"不是很清楚的掌握這一些不是很清楚所以上次我質詢之後你顯然沒有去follow整個電訊合併之後所產生那個狀態所以我今天在追問的時候請你沒有辦法回應出來像正常的時候40到70M是正常的一個情況在台北的時候不管在台灣在怎麼樣台北到70是很正常的台灣到處至少20M以上都是很基本的一個門檻可是你看"},{"start":5968.642,"end":5970.967,"text":"臺哥大變了臺灣之星之後只到1到5咩?這樣的狀態是不是有嚴重影響到消費者的權益?"},{"start":5980.149,"end":6008.221,"text":"若通訊品質沒有達到應該有的這個品質這是有消費者保護的問題所以公平會這邊是不是應該要出手要針對這個事情電信業者合併之後沒有達到他們該提供出來的消費品質公平會是不是應該要出手公平會在當時準結合的時候有一些負擔那這些負擔比較是從這個競爭秩序方面去談的那當然消費者的保護"},{"start":6010.542,"end":6033.118,"text":"競爭秩序是一塊沒有問題可是消費者保護一定是公平會很重要的一個目標成立公平會很重要的一個目標所以我希望針對這個部分主委你後續再去追蹤一下後續再給本席一個很清楚的一個報告好不好我會跟委員說明這個NCC的負擔跟我們的負擔差別在哪然後針對消費者權益的部分然後NCC這邊"},{"start":6035.599,"end":6057.45,"text":"顯然沒有很積極去處理這個事情那我們是要公平會這邊出手因為現在NCC其實也很亂那我想說針對這個部分再給本席一個完整的一個書面資料那我接下來還要再問一個你剛剛提到就是公平交易法第21條那我想問一下預售屋預售屋的不實廣告你怎麼認定"},{"start":6058.94,"end":6079.353,"text":"預售屋的不實廣告就是他廣告說他有什麼就要有什麼是所以基本上也是用公平交易法第21條對於有虛偽不實或引人錯誤的表示或表徵基本上這是一個很重要的一個判斷標準對不對是是嗎OK那第42條直接表示說OK那他可以處5萬元到2500萬以下的一個罰款應該也是這樣的一個條件對不對是OK好我想問一個具體的一個個案"},{"start":6088.756,"end":6111.835,"text":"來 主委你看到這樣右邊這樣子的一個廣告的時候他說已經預留華南銀行貸款額度安信購屋華南銀行信託保證這樣的一個廣告的時候你覺得會不會誤導民眾我為什麼會提這個問題因為這個問題是在這一波央行打房之後還持續的廣告"},{"start":6113.755,"end":6133.537,"text":"如果他說有預留華南銀行的額度結果沒有這個就是不實廣告如果沒有的時候就不實廣告所以我們如果看到這個他說預留華南銀行貸款額度的時候那我們去買了房子到時候華南銀行沒有貸款給我們的時候這個建商就會出問題是這個意思嗎我的意思說你廣告說什麼就要有什麼"},{"start":6134.258,"end":6162.586,"text":"所以我說你看嘛右邊這廣告已經預留華南銀行貸款額度安心購屋那這樣子算不算是一個不實廣告算不算有誤導民眾需要去查因為我們在看的是不實以至於誤導如果沒有不實就不會到誤導的問題那這樣子算不算不實主委你的專業你這樣直接看算不算不實是不是真的有華南銀行貸款是怎麼說的這個是需要了解的"},{"start":6163.584,"end":6174.436,"text":"那是不是會誤導民眾來做購屋因為現在央行現在這一波打房之後出現很多的狀態是很多銀行都縮了銀根都不願意再放款出來喔"},{"start":6176.705,"end":6192.674,"text":"會不會誤導又看各每個不同消費者的認知主委這個部分我想說請主委這邊再跟我們內政部地政司這邊跟消保行政院消保處這邊的時候去做一個完整一點點的一個"},{"start":6194.835,"end":6197.058,"text":"公平交易委員會對於預收銷售行為案件的處理原則裡面規範的沒有那麼樣的細緻所以我們希望"},{"start":6214.246,"end":6214.647,"text":"最後一個部分針對"},{"start":6233.51,"end":6262.453,"text":"建保就是醫療相關的一個掛號費這個部分的時候他算不算是一個聯合行為這一波很多都漲價了在相近的時間都漲價算不算聯合行為有沒有就有漲價是一個客觀事實我們會去看看他們橫向有沒有勾結談價他們肯定有開過會公會裡面肯定有開過會因為我看到你報告裡面針對很多公會的部分包括土木公會"},{"start":6263.634,"end":6284.273,"text":"包括一些就是結構工會等等都有一些相關的一個部分所以針對這個部分希望主委這邊也多費點心針對這個掛號費的聯合行為的部分那到之後再都給本席一個很完整的書面說明謝謝"},{"start":6298.599,"end":6308.612,"text":"我們先來請一下呂玉玲召委謝謝主席請離主委請離主委委員好"},{"start":6314.642,"end":6342.915,"text":"主委公平會要負擔的就是我們整個社會我們所有的相關各行各業在這個市場這個平台上有任何不公的地方我們的公平會就要站出來主動站出來主持公道讓我們所有的大眾不要受到其害但是從早上到現在我一直聽到公平會永遠是被動撇清責任"},{"start":6344.156,"end":6355.856,"text":"見報了到司法單位了還跟你們沒關係除非判決出來你們才承認這個是有問題的什麼叫做有問題只要有受害者就有問題對不對"},{"start":6358.926,"end":6379.575,"text":"有時候可能就是有這個違反法令的行為那你又在鐵案司法我說主委為什麼早上這麼多委員大家都會比較激動的來問你就是你一直不聚焦委員問你的問題你都一直在答非所問我就跟你聚焦再聚焦一下請問"},{"start":6381.974,"end":6382.154,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6400.016,"end":6421.484,"text":"並購福本大在整個社會的輿論上傾向他是不支持的但是在整個外送平台裡面你看到這兩家一個是第一名一個就是第二名他們要合併了社會大眾非常的緊張他們為什麼緊張我不知道公平會了不了解但是他們如果合併的話一定會影響市場上的結構"},{"start":6422.944,"end":6446.272,"text":"公平會你們態度跟立場而言你們對於獨佔的這個市場他們會不會在整個市場上面的你一直講的就是說這個限制的這個制度跟這個方面齁在這限制競爭這方面會不會影響其他競爭者的競爭因為他是第一大他是第二大他獨佔這個市場"},{"start":6448.193,"end":6452.978,"text":"合併之後的話其他市長有沒有能力跟他競爭就是限制競爭的這有沒有達到限制競爭"},{"start":6456.36,"end":6480.608,"text":"我想會不會整個市場的競爭結構的這個改變還有他市佔率的改變我已經告訴你他是第一名第二名這兩個合併起來不是大怪獸了嗎他對於這個將來消費者的影響包括餐廳店家的影響這個都是我們整個要評估那資料如果沒有很齊全我們不是列放送資料給你的喔那他影響的是哪方面對店家什麼影響"},{"start":6481.668,"end":6508.901,"text":"對店家譬如說我們也做了很多的公聽會的徵詢店家擔心以後店家跟這個平台合作這個服務費可能會提高超成的問題是好那那個對於外送平台呢外送平台因為我們有這麼多的這個外送員他們也擔心說將來這個談判力量會不對等譬如說把這個外送費用降低或者是其他的就他的薪資會降低了薪資降低了那對消費者呢"},{"start":6509.241,"end":6535.079,"text":"消費者也擔心就提高價格因為我沒得選擇只能選這一家嘛以前有兩家可以選這個都是我們我提到的就是對於利害關係人的影響你都能夠說出來這就是一連貫的為了他們兩家和平之後產生了三輸的局面就是外送平台的外送人員還有店家還有消費者外送平台的人員因為他薪資會被他們控制而降低"},{"start":6535.879,"end":6536.32,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6551.056,"end":6551.777,"text":"公平會是委員會"},{"start":6569.696,"end":6596.366,"text":"是不是送給你們那就是你們立場你要負責審核那公平會是委員制我們這麼大的案子一定要請到委員會討論那現在你5月份送資料給你們現在到8月份你們要求他們要補正資料補正資料現在是9月30號了又過掉兩個月了那資料送到沒有還沒有那個補正時間還沒到不是因為他是國外的公司就還沒有因為在公平交易法的第11條"},{"start":6598.167,"end":6616.64,"text":"臺北有講到 這個第7項跟第8項裡面 如果正式受理之後 已經正式受理了嗎 正式受理還沒有 還沒有正式受理 文件齊備才正式受理他現在文件還沒有齊備 所以還沒有他如果再過了半年還沒送來呢 會不會取消 會不會取消所以 主委 你一直在講21條 我現在跟你講11條"},{"start":6624.005,"end":6641.434,"text":"第7項第8項如果這個合併案件正式受理後需要經過30天內做出決定如果有必要性延期可以再延期60天如果最長最長的話只有90個公酬天就要做出決議5月送件現在9月底了你說資料期前才叫做正式送件那5月份就不算囉"},{"start":6652.912,"end":6653.392,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6668.695,"end":6671.516,"text":"對於本案是不是準結合需要到委員會討論那我們必須要有詳細的資料以後才能夠在委員會裡面做判斷"},{"start":6697.125,"end":6725.263,"text":"所以你們現在連立場態度都沒有五月份送件到現在補件都一直遲遲不送來經過了年底他還沒辦法送來你還不能做個裁決公平會廢了算了廢掉算了一個公平會今天來了多少官員你一年處理十個案件處理這一個社會大眾擔心關心做到很大的傷害的事情你們到現在遲遲不處理"},{"start":6726.479,"end":6726.859,"text":"公平會 公平會"},{"start":6754.798,"end":6773.713,"text":"就這麼兩手一攤叫他們去報警他說他在這個平台上一開始教他怎麼玩股票到後面告訴他說你抽中了股票73張趕快把錢繳進來他問公平會這件事情是否如真但是公平會說去報案吧現在已經到法院了車手什麼都被抓了"},{"start":6774.333,"end":6797.098,"text":"公平會只能這樣去報案嗎?所以我跟你聚焦再聚焦在這種問題上面今天早上每一個委員都講到這個公平會現在網路發達數位在這個平台上網路上在這個平台上已經串聯到這種程度了你公平會要化被動為主動不要看了報紙還不做事"},{"start":6798.178,"end":6809.642,"text":"你們要去看這個平台上有沒有詐騙的有沒有不實的通通都有我們自己稍微有個頭腦能一看就是被騙的你一個人可以抽到73張的這個股票"},{"start":6812.618,"end":6812.878,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6828.783,"end":6852.623,"text":"面對事實現在社會輿論上你們公平會就是讓所有大眾不要受到其害消費者也好店家也好外送平台都好需要你們站出來所以我現在說告訴你現在如果年底還沒有辦法把這個資料送齊的話你要看看這兩家有沒有必要性的合併你們要掀錢可以看一看"},{"start":6853.604,"end":6853.624,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":6891.753,"end":6897.661,"text":"呃謝謝大家呃等會在楊秋毅委員諮詢完畢我們休息5分鐘現在請陳婷菲委員諮詢呃謝謝朝委我們請公平會主委請李主委"},{"start":6914.78,"end":6933.367,"text":"主委 剛剛大家一直在針對這所謂外送平台併購案 有對您有一些提問但是我們聽了您剛剛的一些回應 讓我們不免有一些擔心"},{"start":6935.27,"end":6961.151,"text":"我們到底對於這個外送平台併購案我們的態度是什麼你一直說他還沒送進來還沒送進來所以我們還沒入案不是是你們的態度你們要想讓外界知道你們審這個案子的態度是什麼不是他今天送不送進來啊是你今天應該要態度先很明確跟大家說我們會堅持哪幾個原則這樣才對啊"},{"start":6965.818,"end":6982.517,"text":"讓消費者還有我們的一些相關的對於這個產業產業者也好然後或許有一些爭議性的部分他們知道說我該怎麼做我們現在原則到底是什麼"},{"start":6983.858,"end":6984.318,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7004.89,"end":7005.29,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7024.219,"end":7045.251,"text":"經濟利益跟限制競爭不利益如果負大於正那就沒有辦法轉所以這些事要經過包括市場界定的評估那幾點基本上根本都不用再問了你今天兩個最大的平台商外送平台結合之後它不會壟斷"},{"start":7047.168,"end":7066.996,"text":"所有消費者的權益不會受損參議業者不會受損怎麼可能啊你光現在因為有競爭所以很多的消費爭議他不得不處理喔那現在有競爭消費爭議處理還這樣哩哩喇喇喔那如果沒有競爭的時候請問消費爭議誰理你啊你來就來啊你不愛尊稍會不會這個樣子"},{"start":7076.28,"end":7105.509,"text":"所以 主委 您剛講的 我都可以跟您講黑海哥在暑克 兩個最大的外送平台現在 光跟我們服務處 不要說跟你們了服務處 很多的一個所謂服務案件的申訴大量刮開了所以我們認為 您們的態度一直讓大家不清不楚 不明不白"},{"start":7106.607,"end":7129.804,"text":"所以才會搞得大家覺得說按照公平會會不會最後就這樣糊弄的就過了好來 主委在這個外送平台的部分你看喔消費者這個外送員他最大的疑慮是什麼他最大疑慮是什麼"},{"start":7130.964,"end":7131.684,"text":"我們看到我們的參議業者呢"},{"start":7160.844,"end":7185.497,"text":"參議業者疑慮是什麼這個抽成的%會不會提高這是參議院對阿抽成%會不會提高阿一定嘛因為剩一間嘛剩一間而已嘛而且大家要擠到這個窄門嘛他是不是會把條件拉高一定嘛條件拉高誰受害誰受害"},{"start":7186.753,"end":7212.239,"text":"業者受害消費者也受害因為業者會轉嫁在消費者身上就這麼簡單所以光明獨赤的外送平台會造成多大的恐慌再來咧消費者的疑慮呢成本增加這個消費的這個成本也會增高是啊"},{"start":7214.361,"end":7229.58,"text":"是阿所以消費者所擔心全部公務就齊了阿在餐飲業者身上所增加的在外送員身上所增加的全部就轉嫁在消費者身上就這樣阿所以"},{"start":7235.475,"end":7260.267,"text":"外送平台剛好這三主要扮演角色外送員：餐飲業者：消費者這三個重點都跟你說如果合併之後公盲到期會面臨的狀況就是這麼嚴重所以如果我們公平會的態度沒有拉出來"},{"start":7261.744,"end":7287.993,"text":"當然大家就會質疑啊所以主委我覺得我們台獨要跟我請測不過委員我們程序還是要照法定程序當然法定程序就是說你申報結合那你程序不齊備還是要通知法這些我們就齊備才能進入審議的程序主委你們就是都公平數所以所有的人民才會覺得公平會在幹什麼"},{"start":7289.281,"end":7311.774,"text":"你們在講程序的同時要把你的原則一併提到就是你外送平台你有權利依照程序來申辦這樣的一個合併可是我公平會一樣我會依照哪幾個原則嚴格審慎來審議這樣的一個合併案"},{"start":7315.885,"end":7343.123,"text":"如果你這兩個很清楚把它在一個平台當中正確的讓媒體知道誰會質疑你公平會的態度你公平會一直都講程序我們也一直談我們審查的面向就是剛才委員提到的這幾點這個我們審查的你是有問才講啊有問才講啊你們對外講都說他沒送進來他還沒送進來"},{"start":7346.141,"end":7360.437,"text":"以為還沒送進來就沒你的事還沒送進來是他程序還沒送進來不代表他沒在做相關的動作所以你更應該把你的態度公平會的態度拿高"},{"start":7361.721,"end":7387.662,"text":"所以為什麼我們每一次在公平會在做質詢在做預算審查的時候我們對公平會有那麼多的意見是因為你們的態度都不明你們態度都曖昧讓民眾很擔心讓消費者很擔心而且每一次所提到的任何正義性的問題你們最後都查無證據來結案"},{"start":7389.784,"end":7417.883,"text":"那民眾要你們幹什麼好 再一個主委你如果加強要查緝廣告不實的部分現在所有的媒體越來越多不同的一些宣傳手法那在這個部分廣告不實其實會造成很多消費者的損害"},{"start":7419.292,"end":7419.592,"text":"主動嗎?來,你們今年主動查了幾件?"},{"start":7443.017,"end":7443.817,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7462.104,"end":7483.701,"text":"人家檢舉910件 你們才主動查110件好 你們110件主動查查的總共有幾件 有處分我們去網路監控有一萬多件那看出來有問題的我們去查的主動的有一千多件一萬多件 然後最後釐清之後算"},{"start":7484.642,"end":7488.883,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7513.911,"end":7529.481,"text":"所以你看喔查控從網路查查一萬多件最後一千多件最後正式立案110件最後有處分的40件這是什麼事啊"},{"start":7531.032,"end":7531.892,"text":"910件民眾檢舉請問最後處分有幾件"},{"start":7551.558,"end":7563.163,"text":"今年查的今年還在就是今年處理的今年還在查是好所以今年900億之間都是今年的嗎我們我們剛剛提到是說今年收辦的有"},{"start":7564.517,"end":7566.578,"text":"910件目前還在查而且已經有處分的"},{"start":7585.131,"end":7586.952,"text":"10月份,今天是9月30號,剩10月11、12,所以現在1000多件才處分40件"},{"start":7606.892,"end":7615.398,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7636.152,"end":7636.552,"text":"請邀請主委請你主委"},{"start":7668.087,"end":7680.482,"text":"主委好,我們還是繼續來討論這個WhoPanda跟Uber Eats的這個事情那當時提出要併購的時候,大家引起各界非常"},{"start":7681.374,"end":7681.754,"text":"外送市場八成九成"},{"start":7711.117,"end":7738.838,"text":"會導致一家獨大所以本期要請教主委您的看法呢這個數字告訴你那您的看法呢如果第一大跟第二大結合將來就是一個市場它有獨佔的力量這個事實上會成全家一定的力量就八成九成嘛你也同意這樣的論點那所以要請教主委從公平會對於併購案的它有四個標準嘛您在哪四個標準啊"},{"start":7740.865,"end":7764.492,"text":"我們會看它結合以後對於店家、餐廳、消費者還有外送員的影響這第一個面向第二個就是說其他的潛在的競爭者有沒有可能因此就進不來參與競爭再來就是說提高價格的可能性"},{"start":7766.294,"end":7787.227,"text":"以及會不會跟其他的業者有聯合的行為這些都是會一起來考量那包括消費者外送員跟他抗衡的力量是不是談判力量就不對等這些都是我們要綜合判斷的因素您剛才所敘述的那麼如果在這兩家合併你同意合併的時候會不會產生這樣的現象"},{"start":7789.091,"end":7789.291,"text":"市場集中度"},{"start":7804.021,"end":7828.424,"text":"結合後併購方定價的能力第三個是合併後協同效果也就是聯合行為這個是最嚴肅的一個議題接下來就是市場的一個效益這是你基本的四大原則請你這四大原則你要背清楚所以這件事情到目前為止的進度到底是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":7831.469,"end":7851.489,"text":"第一 剛才我講的那個回答就是有沒有送案進來了 請教這兩家有沒有送案進來有送案進來 五月有遞件遞件 接下來呢遞件以後 因為文件不齊備 我們通知補正通知補正 是你在五月份送來 多久以前通知補正"},{"start":7853.054,"end":7855.175,"text":"本席要告訴你因為這個影響非常的巨大"},{"start":7879.228,"end":7886.993,"text":"現在的社會面向就已經有把外送員的金額下降"},{"start":7888.038,"end":7910.036,"text":"就已經有這樣的現象就已經有將這個合作廠商也要把他們的佣金要來提高所以最後的受害者就是消費者我們也希望達到三贏便利的一個三贏政策所以本席給你幾項具體的建議第一個必須要嚴審"},{"start":7911.817,"end":7932.346,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7932.446,"end":7954.821,"text":"第3是否會影響到員工薪資．跟受僱者．以真正的守護大眾的權利這三項本席再提醒我們公平會當然剛剛你回答的那個四部語言的四部也包含在這裡面所以既然理念一樣一定要好好的嚴審保障我們所有人的一個權利"},{"start":7956.062,"end":7957.903,"text":"請大家放心公平會會謹慎合理的來"},{"start":7973.252,"end":7979.614,"text":"嚴審這個案子好那接下來本校請教2023年2月15號修正的氣候變遷因應法那當然針對於溫室氣體的排放量這個減量的基礎那國際間大家都朝這個方向那在這種情況之下6月19號的媒體報導有出現了不少的溫室氣體查驗人員相關課程"},{"start":7998.819,"end":8015.966,"text":"讓民眾誤以為我受訓完我就能夠取得到這樣子的檢驗人員的license的一個證照但是環境部表示他跟你們公平會不斷的溝通認為此舉已經設為公平交易法的廣告不實"},{"start":8016.92,"end":8017.1,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8034.609,"end":8034.749,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8050.62,"end":8056.544,"text":"本席請問針對本席的提問也就是環境部跟您說不是上完課廣告就直接拿到license你知不知道這回事啊"},{"start":8076.361,"end":8096.309,"text":"這個實在是讓我們很訝異環境部已經公佈多次跟你們溝通他認為此舉已經違反了已經違反了公平交易法你們還到現在在這裡還沒有辦法回答本席你還讓民眾繼續被人家騙嗎你的功能在哪裡啊你知不知道環境部跟你講這個事情"},{"start":8105.72,"end":8131.155,"text":"探綜合的一些宣稱以罪如果有一些訓練課程讓大家有誤解的情況他已經告訴你了怎麼如果環境部已經告訴你多次告訴你他告訴你已經違法了不要再有人傷害你趕快去查清楚好不好我們政府的橫向部門都沒有再聯繫你讓我非常的訝異啊"},{"start":8132.697,"end":8145.387,"text":"請你趕快去查清楚告訴本席順便資料告訴本席再來一個議題國內呢我們現在的生活方式它豐滿的這個團購的方式對不對你們也是有"},{"start":8146.857,"end":8164.986,"text":"有史以來第一次在9月11號的這個報導也就是穿戴式的空氣淨潔期廠商結盟消費者消費團體那總共呢你們也罰了就是有史以來公平會一口氣處罰團購事業與共同合作銷售共5家廠商你們也罰了80萬的這個"},{"start":8171.169,"end":8171.549,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8196.562,"end":8196.742,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":8212.847,"end":8213.167,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8232.295,"end":8232.595,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":8246.892,"end":8249.655,"text":"主委 本期給你一個結論跟建議也就是說你好不容易手上頭一招"},{"start":8265.869,"end":8268.272,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":8283.746,"end":8289.032,"text":"你們要著重在宣導告訴大家你像這樣的行為我已經開發了80萬喔你要宣導你現在開發了80萬有誰知道有誰知道少數人知道所以你只有發一個新聞稿誰給你看燈你應該要去找你怎麼樣宣導的管道"},{"start":8305.729,"end":8329.166,"text":"加強宣導的管道預防重瑜治療你讓社會大眾知道你不要亂搞不要讓人家受害我會處罰的這樣子至少可以有一點惡主作用認同嗎這個我認同認同你趕快去做好不好你把你的方案要怎麼樣去推廣讓大家知道不要再犯法了這一點我覺得非常的重要你把你的方案詳細順便資料給本席好不好謝謝"},{"start":8338.282,"end":8339.013,"text":"好現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":8512.1,"end":8512.689,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8696.442,"end":8718.964,"text":"好現在正式開始開會請鄭天才委員質詢主席委員我們請李主委請李主委"},{"start":8725.848,"end":8752.139,"text":"好主委好辛苦了這個還是要跟主委還有公平會的所有的同仁網路的詐騙其實他就是一個交易他用交易的手段然後去做詐騙這個這樣的一個情形非常非常的普遍"},{"start":8754.697,"end":8769.407,"text":"臺灣已經這個被詐騙的金額最高的一個國家這樣的一個數字這個臺灣被詐金額佔GDP高達0.9%是已開發國家的第一換算絕對金額高達2000億台幣這麼高所以這個部分是一個"},{"start":8784.941,"end":8811.352,"text":"當初公平教育委員會成立的時候或是我們的公平教育法制定的當時沒有這樣的一個情形所以要以時計進到底法不周延如何去修正這個應該是要現在都是交給警察單位"},{"start":8813.345,"end":8837.503,"text":"主要是警察單位在處理這是錯誤的所以這個部分如果我們看公平交易委員會組織法第一條行政院為維護交易自信以消費者權益所以要成立這個公平會公平交易委員會組織法第二條"},{"start":8839.993,"end":8867.809,"text":"這裏面掌理的事項如果跟剛才講的有比較有接近的話屬於的話不是接近屬於的話違反公平交易法案件之調查及處分所以像這樣的一個情形怎麼樣去去處理公平交易法第二條事業公司的比較少這種情形網絡詐騙"},{"start":8869.448,"end":8874.931,"text":"公平交易法第25條除本法另有規定者外事業亦不得為其他足以影響交易自息之期望"},{"start":8899.386,"end":8927.545,"text":"期望就是欺騙嘛對不對期望就是欺騙嘛所以這樣的一個情形之下這個公平會到底你們這怎麼樣去積極的如果法不足就修法人力不足就增加人力好 主委"},{"start":8930.137,"end":8945.692,"text":"公平法的任務就如同您剛才提出來的我們是在維持一個公平競爭所以不可以有這個不公平競爭其中就是您提到不實廣告不實廣告這部分也是我們查處的重要的重點"},{"start":8946.713,"end":8974.693,"text":"那不時如果涉及到詐欺詐騙這個又是一個不只是行政責任這是一個刑事責任我們就會移送司法機關去調查該搜索該調查的這個司法機關會去調查那確實公平會對於商品或服務不實的廣告我們是要應該積極去查處移送司法當然是應該所以怎麼樣公平會要去主動"},{"start":8976.414,"end":8996.939,"text":"主動有很多種,已經發生的事情要主動,還沒有發生的要怎麼去讓人民去防範更重要,對不對,讓人民去防範更重要,就像過去多層次傳銷開始很慢,"},{"start":9001.222,"end":9013.839,"text":"這個這個這個非常多的情況的時候你們有多很多的這個氣氣這個的先導讓人民知道怎麼樣去防範怎麼樣不要被受騙"},{"start":9015.396,"end":9037.623,"text":"所以你們現在這個部分有沒有在做有第一個我們在除了在電視的跑馬燈或者是在這個跟大學跟司法機關還有在跟民眾之間我們都有定期的宣導會座談會這個一直是我們在做的一件事情我們全省各地都有在做宣導好這個你們除了"},{"start":9042.361,"end":9060.581,"text":"除了我先把這個你們的對25條規定如何判斷事業行為是否過程第25條之期往或顯示公平。這裡面你們也判斷期往應考量的事項都有寫了。"},{"start":9062.233,"end":9090.649,"text":"以積極欺瞞或消極隱匿重要交易資訊自引人錯誤之方式從事交易之行為冒充或是不實或是隱匿像這樣的你們要因為這個你們這個已經放很久了這樣的那個處理的一個原則放很久了或是要點你們要以時計進"},{"start":9092.293,"end":9120.639,"text":"要去分析現況打些案件哪些案件網路哪些案件是已經怎麼樣去把它做一個修正更符合這個一個現況然後叫你們在做宣導的時候也會比較完備所以這個部分是要去加油的是"},{"start":9125.125,"end":9127.589,"text":"這個公平交易法42條違反第25條有這個處罰你們對於這個違反25條有沒有相關處罰的這些"},{"start":9138.581,"end":9140.402,"text":"你是不是把這個類型有哪些類型"},{"start":9167.705,"end":9173.268,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":9190.455,"end":9190.935,"text":"對於這個違反這個的"},{"start":9225.292,"end":9244.922,"text":"我們要看他這個行為有沒有涉及到詐欺或是其他的這個法律禁止的行為會看這個案情來決定要不要移送或者是由公平法來處罰"},{"start":9246.348,"end":9273.391,"text":"所以你們是折衣嗎?還是兩者並行?如果涉及到刑事,那因為司法機關調查就會移送給司法機關如果是行政處罰的適用範圍,我們就會去處理所以你們是折衣?如果依這個處罰,依公平交易法是12條處罰,你們就不移送了?如果沒有涉及到刑事的行為是不移送"},{"start":9273.991,"end":9292.546,"text":"那你們也提供那個你們到底移送了哪些類型那後來這個這個法院判決會告訴你們嗎最後的結果法院的判決會跟我們會處理是不是也提供資料好的謝謝"},{"start":9305.136,"end":9306.638,"text":"請邱志偉 召委諮詢"},{"start":9335.508,"end":9357.804,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請李主委請李主委主委 先問一下那個每個月都會問 高通他的新聞承諾跟這個臺灣企業支持這些的方案目前之前狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":9359.738,"end":9381.685,"text":"核解方案都有照核解條件在進行那去年也已經這個有沒有打折扣或者執行不力都有照這個7月進行都有還有幾年要執行執行的時間5年已經執行完畢而且我們把所有這個核解方案執行的結果那評估都已經上網公告"},{"start":9382.409,"end":9401.041,"text":"所以對他們的相關的承諾或者這個之前相關的賠償你們都可以接受他目前所做的最後的結果都照和解條件在進行後面還有沒有那這些和解條件有些是延續性的會繼續去處理"},{"start":9403.317,"end":9429.508,"text":"還有哪些需要去從和解條件再去跟我們說明他其實兩個方案啦一個是就是跟業者的授權的關係一個是這個增進台灣的一些相關的這個科技的發展那目前在持續進行的比如說一些創新競賽還有跟學校的一些合作這些方案都是他們承諾嘛是那現在你知道他要他要合併什麼他要購併人家公司你知道嗎"},{"start":9433.015,"end":9456.072,"text":"有看到這個新聞,詳細情形你應該了解,他過病當然會對他承諾會不會造成影響啊他過病的機能非常大喔是,這個我們會注意七百多億,不是代表內,美金內七百多億人要過病,他是如果是自願還是非自願你要了解,那會不會影響到他之後承諾旅行的能力,會不會"},{"start":9457.845,"end":9484.617,"text":"因為現在我們還沒有看到這個結核申報的案件那我們會注意我們提到的這些事情那那個是跟我們無關啦他是要購併英特爾啦對不對我是說他去購併對他公司的營運會不會對我們的執行我們的相關程度會不會受影響對啦如果是真的成案會不會對我們執行能力會造成影響這到時候我們要會去做一些評估好我們去看一下下一頁"},{"start":9488.072,"end":9496.829,"text":"這個 再下一頁這個兩家外送平台的市場界定你完成了嗎"},{"start":9499.637,"end":9525.731,"text":"我們過去市場界定是外送餐飲平台那現在市場怎麼界定我們還在評估當中一直評估評估很久那這個要整個資料齊備整個資料齊備以後我們各界關切的這些議題會通盤來處理那時間點能不能說一下你要市場界定什麼時候完成總不能無限期啊總要有個時間表啊主委市場界定有那麼困難嗎"},{"start":9529.155,"end":9550.864,"text":"這個跟委員說明一下我們的程序是這樣子齁文件齊備之後進入委員會去討論市場界定也是委員會討論的一環我們目前請高通公司抱歉 請那個輔本大補件的期間是11月8號那我們會看他補件的情形應該是備齊了 備齊了才會正式受理"},{"start":9557.846,"end":9558.806,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":9586.635,"end":9612.47,"text":"這個比較大的案件通常...我知道啦,這是跨國的,當然也不能無限期啊然後你四戰後,結合後的市佔率會不會超過五成?結合後市佔率會,會超過你看看過去啊,你處理這個購併案的結果只要大概五成,你大概都會禁止結合你看一下資料只要結合後市佔率超過五成,你大概就是禁止"},{"start":9614.23,"end":9622.3,"text":"4層以下你大概都會有條件通過你從結果論來看那你這個結合之後你們4戰6戰多少應該有8層以上這樣你看這個結果會成不成"},{"start":9628.633,"end":9654.876,"text":"這還要委員會討論我現在沒有辦法我看你們過去處理的結果來看嘛過去喔你只要有50%你就是禁止結合啦過去結合以後齁如果他市場力很集中我們在審議的時候會非常的這個謹慎另外企業運用AI收集消費者資訊並進行這個差別取價這部分會影響相關的法規這你們要注意一下這是我們會注意"},{"start":9655.657,"end":9675.82,"text":"B to B 你們用20條第二款,那B to C的部分,您這個要不要涉及修法,可能自己要考慮一下。主委,您知道嗎?我知道,我知道。你20條在裡面,你那個B to B大概可以來處理,但是B to C的部分呢,這個差別大於你沒有辦法試用啊。"},{"start":9676.874,"end":9705.157,"text":"那未來這個大家都已經提供給你這個可能會發生的問題嘛我們會看看他跟競爭的影響啦最後還是回到這個競爭面你要先了解說那個人工智慧基本法第11條這相關的規定是不是可以符合你這個會對你的業務不會造成影響是這我們有小組在討論這個我們有一個公民會有一個AI他人工智慧基本法草案在立法過程中有沒有問公民會的意見"},{"start":9706.65,"end":9710.172,"text":"人工智慧基本法訂出來之後你公平會可能會變成消費者進行個人化的定價這帶來風險"},{"start":9736.817,"end":9742.082,"text":"AI的發展跟各部會的法規的協調調和是一個非常重要的要去關注的你要去跟主管機關去反映"},{"start":9766.248,"end":9794,"text":"現在就是說以目前來以目前的狀態公平法的規範他如果涉及到競爭的議題目前可以處理那當然細部有沒有不足的地方我們再來評估是不是可以針對這部分你提一個書面報告給我是一個月之內好的好不好那回到剛才啊你這個跨國企業集合案我看你時間都沒有一個時間表然後這個每次問你還在收集資料還在提供資料"},{"start":9795.786,"end":9796.267,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9815.748,"end":9841.837,"text":"按主管機關審查的時間法律上是有規定的就是30天文件期備30天可是補件資料那個補件的時間要看各案件的不同文件期備的準備期你沒有限制啊就現在你還沒有立案嘛因為每個案件的情況不一樣我要遵守這個發言人的這個時間時間到我就要遵守這個我當然知道我要以身作則"},{"start":9849.737,"end":9875.599,"text":"請蔡易瑜委員質詢好,他換鍾嘉斌好,那我們現在請鍾嘉斌委員質詢優先主席在黨委員先進,列席總經事長、官員、會長、觀眾夥伴、媒體、自由女士先生有請主委請李主委"},{"start":9882.115,"end":9906.216,"text":"主委好 時間很緊迫 我很簡短的問 最近大家很關心的就是Uber Eats跟Panda它的併購問題你覺得為了保持市場競爭 我們應該評估的交易關係者有哪些至少包括外送員 消費者 還有餐廳所以我這邊少了一個外送員 對不對所以你連外送員都考慮進去 我覺得很好好 那我們往下看"},{"start":9906.946,"end":9933.217,"text":"其實我這邊過去曾經舉過例子在美國對於AT&T在數十年前被強制拆分成七個公司你覺得這是根據什麼法你所了解的?因為AT&T是獨佔嘛它在美國它是一個算是有限電視有限通訊的部分那您覺得台灣有在公平會我們除了合併之外有可能像美國這樣要求一個獨佔事業強制拆分嗎?"},{"start":9933.888,"end":9951.875,"text":"我們會看案情那你認為過去我們在核准有線電視系統業者的時候我們把它規劃成51個區那除了少數區之外當年每個區都是一個業者你覺得這樣符不符合我們一個公平交易所要保持的市場秩序"},{"start":9954.08,"end":9954.34,"text":"有線電視系統業者"},{"start":9975.919,"end":9991.273,"text":"公共的網路這網路的基礎建設大部分是政府完成的加上使用的訊號頻寬是屬於政府可以來管制的所以政府當然可以予以限制那你覺得這個外送平台外送員是不是使用公家的道路公共道路"},{"start":9993.154,"end":10010.725,"text":"有,一定要在馬路上送嘛,他用的都是公共基礎建設嘛所以他的營業的範疇是建立在政府的基礎建設之上所以政府構不構成政府介入去過問這個外送平台使用公共建設所產生的市場秩序的一個依據"},{"start":10014.018,"end":10038.311,"text":"不管他有沒有用到公共建設,所有的事業都要符合市場經濟資訊。是,但是他如果用公共建設的時候,我們政府就更有介入去管制的空間。我舉例,UBER EAT或HOOPENTA他有沒有用到資訊流,有嘛。他的副管要用金流,都是要網路基礎建設嘛。他的物流用公共道路嘛。他目前的大量使用公共基礎設施。哪一個類似的情況我舉個例,往下看。"},{"start":10039.175,"end":10067.395,"text":"好 有線電視因為這樣的關係他有自然獨佔的行程所以要求政府介入再往下看那麼我們在關於我們的這個外送平台當中副院長主持的消保會當中他規定了兩件事情第一個他認為他在資訊流的部分還有第三方資物的部分物流跟資訊流他希望速發部來主管但是外送員他說叫做貨運業屬於交通部的特許事業你認同這樣的一個主管權責嗎"},{"start":10069.262,"end":10088.569,"text":"為什麼是貨運業在交通部有他的主管法規?對,他們認為外送員就是在從事貨運那至於跟這個他的外送平台之間是一種承攬關係還是一種勞僱關係當然那是另外一件事情但是他們使用公共道路運交貨物就是一個特許行業好,那我們現在看"},{"start":10089.164,"end":10114.865,"text":"所以我們政府要討論到底要不要介入去訂定合理的運費運費包括兩種一種是消費者付的第一種是外送員拿到的那這兩種包括消費者利用資訊平台跟外送資訊公司跟外送平台下單然後下面有一個貨運公司將這個餐飲從餐廳由外送員送到顧客的手上這裡面包含了很多的部分我們往下看"},{"start":10115.706,"end":10116.187,"text":"經濟委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":10131.5,"end":10151.576,"text":"換言之,未來你們在審查WhoPanda跟UberEat,它不是只是審查一個資訊平台、兩個資訊平台合併與否,它事實上還包含了兩個金流支付公司要不要合併,還包含了全台灣那麼多使用地方政府管轄道路的貨運業務,要不要做一個整併的問題,您同意嗎?"},{"start":10152.617,"end":10173.533,"text":"我想就是說各個法規怎麼規範就由各個法規那回到不管有沒有結合都是從競爭秩序是競爭秩序你認為在一個縣市當中兩個客運公司的競爭你們要考慮它的市場秩序嗎?都要考慮好那你們認為一個高雄的外送員可能送餐到台北市嗎?"},{"start":10175.868,"end":10192.677,"text":"理論上是不太可能因為餐飲有它的實效性所以理論上如果是貨運平台外送的這個貨運物流的階段往下看它事實上它是一個各區域各自分開的所以未來如果這兩家外送平台他們在談合併的時候"},{"start":10195.979,"end":10219.246,"text":"你們不管最後做於同意或不同意都應該思考到未來你們所關心的剛剛你講的外送員的權益他是附著在一個貨運地區性的貨運的一個業務上那這樣的貨運業務必須合理的投射回來你們在審查這兩個表面上以資訊公司合併的案例來看待"},{"start":10220.026,"end":10228.874,"text":"金流的部分他們如果兩家合併超過20億就不是歸速發部第三方支付所主管會歸金管會主管這你們知道嗎"},{"start":10230.66,"end":10250.109,"text":"你們知道對不對 如果他們兩個合併的話 金流的部分 他們的業務主管機關就要轉移了 就要從哪裡 從速發部轉移到金管會了金管會是我同意 那就是另外一件事情 但是物流的部分 要不要拆分 公平會要不要做出一個明白的表示"},{"start":10251.719,"end":10269.42,"text":"在審結合的部分你們會不會同時規範它物流的部分可否結合我想這個到時候要再整個來看好那今天本席要提醒你既然一開始你就告訴我這一次的他們兩家的結合不是只有金流的部分不是設餐廳不是設消費者"},{"start":10270.741,"end":10271.001,"text":"請陳昌明委員質詢"},{"start":10308.066,"end":10328.862,"text":"主席首先有請我們的李主委請李主委主委我現在頭很大會麻煩你曉得有時候你們公平委員會做一個決定"},{"start":10330.218,"end":10358.237,"text":"會讓一家公司請假上場無以為盡那苗栗縣有一家直銷公司我也請你來了解整個狀況人家好好的一家公司在經營但是你公平委員會裡面堅持送到檢調單位還變成擴大偵辦結果這家公司打了8年的官司都要到最高法院打贏了但是財產也被查封什麼資料都被查封"},{"start":10359.448,"end":10373.356,"text":"阿現在要重新開倉會困難重重我替他找每一家銀行說重新大家都說有紀錄不願意辦阿這現在我管事派阿你公平委員會跟我提出提告"},{"start":10374.682,"end":10397.609,"text":"結果贏了,你們都不用負責任。人家要再繼續再經營,也得不到尋求解決的辦法。你也有一點辦法,把民間的企業稅就提高,就升到檢調單位,現在要怎麼來辦?我跟你講,我花了大概4、5個月,帶他到一家銀行,去銀行都不辦。"},{"start":10398.792,"end":10403.315,"text":"實在你這個提出跟人家送到檢調單位最後打死了你們真的要出來負責任啊?你 看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":10415.526,"end":10436.978,"text":"那個委員您講的是具體是哪一家公司?清雲直銷公司慶餘嘛,就是那個骨灰攤那個骨灰攤,那個案件我會了解,來處長你說他最後打贏了吧,最後法院打贏了嘛,這間公司危機倒閉了不是個案,這個是由你們發動的"},{"start":10442.142,"end":10445.904,"text":"我聽不清楚戴著口罩我真的聽不清楚你講的靠近麥克風一點吶"},{"start":10456.317,"end":10475.348,"text":"是,跟委員報告,這個案子呢,它是在我們102年的6月,我們有接獲這個慶允公司,它涉及到這個變質。沒有啦,我不講那個內容,只有你們提告,官司打贏了,所有受審要如何來負責,你們公平委員會要如何去負這個責任。"},{"start":10476.889,"end":10477.469,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":10497.098,"end":10524.195,"text":"這個剪掉當中去處理一家豪華公司你們提出來要充斥很充足最後人家打贏了阿你要如何解釋不要隨隨便便不要為自己辯護那司法的判決他贏了表示你們錯了你來跟我一起討論來解決我帶你去你們要負責任我只有一句話不是這樣提高下去沒你們的事"},{"start":10526.414,"end":10548.585,"text":"人家辛辛苦苦幾十年打拼出來的事業還在這裡毀於一旦你們有沒有良心啊注意一下這樣的情形好不好不要講說你們辦案的經過我們也一清二楚好不好那麼堅持結果導致一個廠商倒閉啊養了很多人啊"},{"start":10551.602,"end":10576.347,"text":"這位要不要一起來負這個責任 不然每天來找我 我的頭很大就是說公務員遇到有涉法的案件移送檢調單位那至於他有罪無罪或有沒有違法就是由司法機關才認定結果是沒有違法那基本上公務員我們沒有這個調查的權利沒有辦法百分之百保證他違法才移送這個還是要去進行司法機關的調查"},{"start":10579.551,"end":10606.82,"text":"好不好這個委員還不如申請公平也打不贏這個時間太長了起碼我打贏了你們送檢調單位也幫我們負責責任發委因為我們不知道法院會判決有罪無罪但是我們發現涉及到違法行為我們沒有起訴我們是把這個疑似犯法案件檢察官一定要接調查要怎麼樣"},{"start":10608.669,"end":10609.61,"text":"那再來今天最熱門的話題"},{"start":10636.227,"end":10656.04,"text":"那個Uber Eats跟Panda Food 307億兩家都外商公司我現在發覺臺灣的官員都沒有兩隻腳很硬尤其高通的事件給我感觸非常深法環可以當作說用投資來轉變我等一下時間可能不夠"},{"start":10657.421,"end":10678.358,"text":"那你們確定要怎樣?兩家起來,外商以求以勤。那個李知偉,我不曉得你有沒有擔當會讓他們合併嘛。占了將近80%的市場。兩家外商大公司來,你受得了嗎?從高通裡面就看出你執政黨就永遠這樣,碰到外人的話。"},{"start":10679.349,"end":10699.263,"text":"就腳就軟下來,碰到臺灣的廠商就冰冰的砍殺我們不會有這種差別待遇,都是照法律來審查我跟您講,看到您覺得很遺憾,您覺得他來拜託的那個樣子,我們心中很難過,你們都不覺得難過公務員到現在我一向都是依據法律來處理"},{"start":10705.275,"end":10728.62,"text":"阿你這個關於Uber Eats跟呼搭配你會不會同意阿?大家議論紛紛阿我是覺得不要有競爭才有進步不可能給他們聯合結合在一起那外商要吃你很容易不要講的時候板口的逆道德要賺台灣的錢什麼手段都可以使得出來你看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":10729.798,"end":10733.164,"text":"公平會我們一定會針對這麼重大的結合案件依法審慎處理不會因為這個國人或者是外商有不同的處理"},{"start":10743.476,"end":10748.541,"text":"臺灣改變的形態,吃的形態也改變很快,慎重慎重。不要碰到外山就腳軟了,什麼都答應。"},{"start":10765.959,"end":10790.41,"text":"關於高通快要結束了我看你的報告我也不知道你到底在說什麼講得很多但是其實那個7億的賠償單位投資到處去挖角拿這個錢去蓋他們的大樓這叫做投資你到現在為止他的晶片所有的挖坑政府機關他也不便於抱怨"},{"start":10791.718,"end":10819.007,"text":"他的競爭對手就是蓮花科兩以外人不以家農7億工研院藝人的預算大概就是210億剛好跟這個金額差不多你們這樣前去的臺灣沒有一點利益就已經絕世了就媽媽夫婦不用了事過去我們都有那個跨部會在處理我們在這裡都照這個和解條件在做國科會他們的社會誰敢去得罪他"},{"start":10820.79,"end":10843.401,"text":"聯發科是自立自強更生起來的長到世界上沒有你把他保持下去做成了集體會議開講座好政府當時我都不知道怎麼想我都不能懷疑外商都不能懷疑美國論美國講什麼要跟著什麼你炒人造成聯發科競爭很大之餘7億"},{"start":10845.32,"end":10845.5,"text":"主委"},{"start":10877.761,"end":10889.055,"text":"請紅夢開委員質詢主席謝謝麻煩請李主委請李主委"},{"start":10896.069,"end":10915.337,"text":"主委好主委好主委我想很多民眾以及本席以及委員都很關心這個外送平台的整併合併事件然後併購案件那我想先確認一下因為上午你也回答相關是說他們是在今年5月有送件是不是是那5月30號就已經要求他們不見是"},{"start":10916.477,"end":10943.257,"text":"那到目前為止都還沒有補件他有陸續補正但是還有一些不清楚的部分陸續補所以陸續補正陸續補但是一直我們通知補正就是他補來那我們再看一看有些需要補正我們陸續要求他補正那我想請教是我們公平會沒有把他需要補齊的所有資料一次跟他講清楚還是說他們是慢慢拖就是今天送一個明天送一個"},{"start":10943.746,"end":10946.531,"text":"那我們一般來講過去到現在法令規定我們這樣子的一個審理案件最長我們允許多久的補件期間"},{"start":10958.032,"end":10983.68,"text":"我們沒有這個限定補正的期間那補件完畢正式受理我們有這個審查的法定期間是審查法定時間所以到目前為止都還沒有算因為補件期間每個企業大小補件的情形不一致所以我們盡量讓公司有補件的機會這個文件越齊備我們的這個審查品質才能夠做審理"},{"start":10985.14,"end":11005.917,"text":"好那之前有提到是說會承諾要開公聽會或是相關來去了解我們不管是產業面本席之前也提過嘛就說這個外送平台整併無最重要是我們要看到的是餐廳業者能不能因此而保障他的權益外送員能不能保障權益以及消費者三方面"},{"start":11006.698,"end":11034.293,"text":"那這個公聽會什麼時候會開始我們公聽會已經開了北中南東全部都開了那除了這個立法院委員也很關心有開公聽會委員有開委員的部分但是公平會自己本身公平會從6月開始就開始展開了北中南東那目前大家的一個消息跟訊息大家的這個政法意見都有都有原則上是譬如說"},{"start":11036.114,"end":11053.427,"text":"外送員的關切、消費者的關切還有餐廳的關切這一部分意見都有了那所以是不是就我們大家的了解嘛最主要大家還是希望是說能夠保障這三方面的權益嘛外送平台在這中間當作是一個橋樑但最主要它是串聯"},{"start":11054.688,"end":11081.699,"text":"餐廳消費者以及外送員三方面的一個權益所以說是不是能夠要保障這三方面的權益不要因為說他們這樣的一個診病而有所受損這才是我們公平會的重點我們的審查重點是從這個競爭交易秩序的改變來看那當然您提到的外送員消費者平台的這些都是考量因素但是我們最終還是要看整個結合的經濟利益有沒有大於限制競爭的不利益"},{"start":11083.22,"end":11109.996,"text":"提高價格的能力會不會跟其他業者聯合的可能性還有消費者店家跟外送員跟他談判的能力是不是有什麼樣的改變會綜合評估所以你這樣講那不就是很明顯的嗎因為現在我們也看到過去有名的錢櫃好樂迪的一個合併到時候公平會還是不允許嘛是不是那錢櫃跟好樂迪他們合併他們最後加起來市佔率有多少"},{"start":11110.492,"end":11111.533,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":11134.059,"end":11155.701,"text":"我想你一定會這樣講啦但是本席要提醒啦其實最重點在於是國際社會裡面最近這段時間有沒有去找說國際社會裡面其他國家有這個外送平台的一個診病的一個案例其他國家是有啦譬如說在韓國在其他國家有那我想每個國家的情況是不同"},{"start":11156.221,"end":11163.929,"text":"所以有些國家是有成功 有些國家是沒有成功嗎國家會要求做一些這個條件 負條件 情況是不一樣"},{"start":11164.477,"end":11190.399,"text":"是 所以其實 主委本席的重點還是強調啊為什麼我們會點出來就是因為過去到現在我們已經很關心而更重要的是本席也認為你既然公平會現在要做這個審查你也講到了其實未來的方向其實還是希望是市場能夠健全的而不希望是說有壟斷的一個狀況發生那就應該還要有一些相關的一個法令工具能夠來做使用"},{"start":11190.839,"end":11211.594,"text":"而勞動部也有要求說公平會應該在審查合併案的過程裡面要把相關部會都納進來決策的過程嘛對不對有有我們也都有徵詢他們的意見是所以說未來你們在做審查的時候是不是幾個行政部門的部分也應該都要同時的納入而不是只是聽委員的聲音"},{"start":11213.815,"end":11238.493,"text":"我們跨部會的意見都會一起呈現讓委員去了解那本席也說本席現在跟幾個委員我們都共同希望能夠推動外送專法的一個訂令為什麼因為不管它合併與否外送專法其實才是真真正正能夠法制化並且讓很多我們有疑慮的地方"},{"start":11239.033,"end":11267.249,"text":"包含是說他即便是他們沒有合併但是兩家業者其實就算是這個市場的一個一二名也算是市佔率非常高如果兩家有默契想要去做調整不管是減少外送員的一個權益或是提高這個餐廳的一個支出那其實某種無形當中市場也都很容易被壟斷所以外送專法才是能夠真真正正保障並且訂立一些最基本的法制的一個門檻"},{"start":11268.584,"end":11270.5,"text":"主委針對這部分你有什麼想法"},{"start":11271.152,"end":11300.165,"text":"我想外送專法他可能涉及到非常多的面向那這個會應該是各方面去評估來決定是不是需要專法是啊但是本席現在要提醒的是說就公平會在審理這個合併案件的過程當中你們會有提出如果說未來真的有這個方向的話也有可能有提出一些限制的條件但限制的條件都不及一個法令的一個要求以及限制來著有保障"},{"start":11301.147,"end":11301.807,"text":"請蔡易瑜委員質詢"},{"start":11330.462,"end":11333.703,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們是不是有請這個李主委請李主委主委好本來也是想要跟你說這個外送平台的事情 我們就看整個早上很多立委都這樣都問了啦齁 我也沒有比較高門 所以我來換別題啦齁 這個主委"},{"start":11355.157,"end":11360.455,"text":"事實上歐盟吼他們針對現在進行看牌然後嗯"},{"start":11362.264,"end":11387.472,"text":"歐盟有針對這個今年年初的時候歐洲議會593票比21票壓倒性的一次都通過一個反票率法令就是說他為了很多企業說我都符合現在的淨零碳排我是屬於現在的一個環保的一個企業"},{"start":11388.012,"end":11393.414,"text":"就是說企業會用這樣的話術然後來告訴消費者然後讓消費者說他是一個比較符合這個零碳牌的他一個比較符合這一個比較先進的一個產業然後讓消費者去購買他的商品可是事實上就有發現了很多弊端就像過去歐盟曾經發現有一家製造衣服的很有名的一個品牌"},{"start":11417.082,"end":11441.09,"text":"他說他都用回收材料來做成他的衣服但是後來被查出來他的回收材料佔他的衣服的裡面只是一小部分所以他就有涉及到了誤導消費者然後最近還有一個就是奧德奧地利航空他說他都用永久的航空燃料他是叫SAF然後所以他已經建行了實踐了這個碳中和的飛行"},{"start":11443.547,"end":11462.28,"text":"然後後來也被認定說這個對消費者有欺騙所以他被提告甚至後來直接被開罰了所以歐盟現在針對這件事情他覺得說哇現在大家都把ESG都把這個淨零碳排標榜的這樣非常的神聖偉大"},{"start":11462.84,"end":11473.01,"text":"阿所以企業也都說 我有怕 我有怕阿甚至台灣現在很多產業勒他也都不知道所謂淨零碳排他是整個有一個路徑的問題就是說我一個商品我從這一個生產端就是說我位"},{"start":11480.197,"end":11493.541,"text":"原料到最後產品的形成它是不是有符合所謂的那個淨零碳排減碳的效果啊有的企業不知道他說我就辦公室我這裡全部人多兩個我辦公室的電我用綠電這樣我就符合符合這個淨零碳排啊然後我就說我是誰綠色能源綠色能源企業啊就自己說啊所以主委針對我剛講的這個狀況那我們公平會有打算做怎樣的因應嗎"},{"start":11510.089,"end":11511.01,"text":"經濟委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":11532.184,"end":11555.017,"text":"這個碳排你其實要先盤點要盤點我放多少量我要移除多少量那加減不足才去買碳權等等所以如果企業他只是簡單的講說我符合這個淨零碳排我符合碳中和這個資訊的接受不清楚的是應該講清楚是啊所以就會有這樣的狀況因為事實上企業可能他會用很多名詞都天海中作戰"},{"start":11556.117,"end":11574.364,"text":"環境友善,氣候中和,我使用可分解的原料,或者是生態友善,哇,這件事每天都很漂亮。消費者,我們這樣的消費者,我們也希望說我們的消費行為可以讓全球減碳盡一份責任,我也要去買這樣的產品啊。"},{"start":11575.837,"end":11601.036,"text":"所以他們說他用什麼材料你就要看是那個材料但是用這些材料不等於碳中和所以這個環境部有這個指引那如果這個企業他有這些宣稱結果跟事實不符不符的話那就是用公平交易委員所以主委我是要問你的態度因為台灣也是台灣雖然我們不是歐盟沒有向他們走到說歐盟他們是要施要立法"},{"start":11601.877,"end":11629.5,"text":"他們叫做用法令的方式所以他是在2026年要完成這樣的法律所以他認為說雖然淨零碳牌是一個目標但是不能欺騙消費者依然是一個最重要的事情那我們台灣的態度呢我想這個全世界都會遇到台灣現在也看到很多建築業標榜他是綠建築但是綠建築的標準在哪裡也許建築法歸有"},{"start":11630.821,"end":11654.673,"text":"但是對於消費者而言他接受到的這些資訊是否是公平的他有辦法自己很清楚的知道這個資訊可能他的訊息沒有給你完整他只是部分使用綠電他沒有事實上他的生產過程並不是整個都是符合這個碳排的一個效果"},{"start":11655.373,"end":11678.291,"text":"阿這個東西 公平會我們要有一個態度嘛就是說他們如果宣稱不實 環境部的法令沒有特別的規定 這公平會有處理空間阿你不實 你要講什麼就要做到什麼 這個在公平法是可以處理的這第一類 第二類 我這裡面有講 那現在有很多的人也跳出來說我要開課程"},{"start":11679.737,"end":11697.157,"text":"因為我要教這些企業怎樣可以達到淨零怎樣是可以把碳盤採你們的產品怎樣可以碳中和然後就有很多人出來開課那這個開課的過程基本上他也沒有辦法讓這些企業因為上了這些課後"},{"start":11697.958,"end":11711.33,"text":"他就可以取得相關的認證或者是怎樣的證書但是他們在於開課的時候他們都會說我們是怎樣的我們是怎樣經過認證過的所以就會產生很多類似這樣的一個詐欺因為他們這個課程相對很貴"},{"start":11719.797,"end":11744.165,"text":"這公平會這件事要不要管就是說他如果說他上了這個課可以拿到什麼認證結果沒有那我們會去了解你是講的那個認證是什麼認證那如果民使不符這個在公平網也是有介入的空間注意我要跟大家講這個事情會越來越多這個你不用懷疑因為整個國家整個全世界全球都是這樣在走啊所以每一個企業第一自身有壓力"},{"start":11745.88,"end":11772.966,"text":"第二企業也想要讓消費者相信他們是有做到的可是事實上他們有沒有做到這件事情是一個大的問號因為他們需要第三方的驗證包括這個第三方的驗證是不是真的符合這個也有問題所以你現在就是說驗證公司這間公司是什麼來歷的他是阿薩布魯的公司還是他真的全世界走得通的驗證的公司"},{"start":11774.361,"end":11789.634,"text":"這個你們也必須要,你們都要查清楚啊,你不能夠整個,大家都在推我們碳費開始課證,企業開始說好,我們大家都要,已經有這個碳費的壓力了,大家都要改善,除了改善的時候很多人都要被詐騙去,會發生喔"},{"start":11794.984,"end":11796.105,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11825.305,"end":11839.499,"text":"我告訴你 這事情我們 現在我是說的比較輕鬆 不過這些事我敢預測 未來 它這是變一個選學 啊這個選學會變成一門很大的生意 啊既然變很大的生意 它就有很多個人是詐騙的 所以我們要去杜絕 好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":11854.845,"end":11855.366,"text":"有請主委 請你主委"},{"start":11874.175,"end":11899.117,"text":"委員好主委好這個外送平台Uber Eats說要用307億元收購第一大的業者Full Panda那目前這兩家是台灣外送平台產業當中最大的兩家嘛對不對那合併之後市佔率大概是台灣整體外送市場的百分之多少"},{"start":11901.699,"end":11902.02,"text":"市場的結構會改變"},{"start":11922.132,"end":11939.57,"text":"那已經超過公平會認定的單一獨佔廠商的標準了嘛對不對遠遠超過啦 對不對所以未來我覺得公平會在審議要不要許可合併的時候真的要非常審慎去考慮那除了說市場秩序公平競爭"},{"start":11940.791,"end":11964.906,"text":"也要去思考今天對國內相關的業者消費者乃至於外送勞工的一個權益的影響我覺得公平會都要審慎的思考要麻煩我們的李主委那麼事實上剛剛我們主委已經講兩大龍頭業者合併後的市佔率是超過八成也已經超過了公平法對於獨佔者的規定"},{"start":11966.047,"end":11980.339,"text":"那麼對於相關同業者就可能會產生不公平競爭的疑慮那麼我們就以過去公平會處理的案例來看看目前這個申請案還沒進到公平會"},{"start":11983.624,"end":12012.535,"text":"已經到公平會議但是文件還沒有齊備我們沒有正式授禮還沒正式授禮文件未齊備我想以過去的一個狀況來問問主委那您對於這個Uber Eats跟Foodpanda的一個這個結合那麼合併的這個事情你們的態度看法是什麼過去國內的KTV有兩大龍頭是錢貴跟好樂迪對不對是那這兩家的合計市佔率是大概是多少"},{"start":12014.278,"end":12028.551,"text":"有超過5成因為各縣市不一樣我看的資料是達到7成啦他們申請也非常合併非常多次嘛那公平會準了嗎沒有準理由是什麼我們整個評估經濟利益跟縣市競爭的不利益那當時個別這個不準的理由可能要再進一步"},{"start":12038.902,"end":12068.02,"text":"我看了一下資料 除了你剛剛講的以外簡單講就是合併之後的市場力量太大了啦然後呢 可能對於會減少對上游唱片發行業支付版權的費用也可能會同時提高下游KTV消費者唱歌的費用因為他們會居於很大的一個價格的一個談判競爭優勢嘛那既然這個錢櫃跟好樂迪會有這個問題請問Uber Eats跟Food Panda會不會也有同樣的問題"},{"start":12073.293,"end":12096.439,"text":"市場力變大了以後將來Uber Eats提價的能力還有對它的利害關係人談判力量的能力這個都會再考量我這樣講這兩個國際外送平台龍頭它已經有很大的技術跟科技的優勢就本來市場力量其實就很大了現在就很大了"},{"start":12097.159,"end":12098.52,"text":"每單抽取商品價格的百分之多少 有掌握嗎?"},{"start":12111.169,"end":12133.488,"text":"外送費大概30到40或是28到38不等要看這個餐廳的結構跟他的客戶數大概所以28到40都可能嘛對不對那這比例是非常高的囉其實對於一般商家來講負擔是很重的吧對不對他已經有很大的價格優勢那如果他把抽成拉得更高的話"},{"start":12134.389,"end":12158.564,"text":"那麼對於苦心經營的餐廳或小失業者那更是更大的一個威脅我舉個例子啊 主委假設你開一家小餐廳除非你不打算接外賣的訂單啦那一旦他條件開的不管是28 30 40甚至45他開的這個價格這個所謂的費率高到你無法承受的地步的話那你怎麼辦"},{"start":12160.267,"end":12170.158,"text":"你跟他根本沒有任何可以抗衡的力量對不對這是為什麼外界非常擔心這個合併案會對業者產生影響同時如果成本提高可能會轉嫁給誰"},{"start":12172.679,"end":12172.899,"text":"消費者"},{"start":12209.913,"end":12222.655,"text":"請李昆成委員質詢。謝謝主席,我們請李主委。請李主委。"},{"start":12230.223,"end":12257.072,"text":"主委好,今天早上大家都在問這個UberEats跟這個Fupenda有關於要合併的相關的問題那我剛才都有聽那這個主委是說現在5月14號收件然後5月30號要求補正所以現在還在補正的階段沒有正式受理嘛對不對那如果說這個Fupenda的文件一直無法備齊那合併案的這個現在是處於哪一種法律的效果"},{"start":12258.322,"end":12265.748,"text":"那是在申報過程的補件程序所以這段時間沒有期限就對了"},{"start":12266.676,"end":12294.991,"text":"我們目前是要求11月8號要求11月8號要把這一個文件補齊但是補齊他交給你們之後如果你們認為說還不夠是還在推薦叫他們再補所以這11月8號也不是最終的Date Line嘛對不對要看他補件的情形對補件的期限所以補完件之後他可以再交如果你們認為說文件不夠齊全再交嘛對不對所以這個收件的最後這個收件的期限"},{"start":12296.132,"end":12308.331,"text":"還會再往後延嗎如果沒有補期就沒有辦法進行結合目前他是有意願要結合現在會不會發生這種情況如果你的任期到哪時候"},{"start":12310.172,"end":12334.353,"text":"到月底那現在會不會發生這種情況就是說好啦那如果他11月8號他就把這一個文件把它補齊了他送進去了那你們審查你們審查時間是多久30天加60天嗎對30天跟60天就是最長的3個月工作天對啊就是90個工作天嘛那有沒有這種情況就是說審查到一半你任期到了"},{"start":12336.547,"end":12365.848,"text":"不無可能這個要看普見的情形對啦我是說如果11月8號普進來了那12月1月兩個月的時間而已耶那所以有可能說你們審查到一半你們現在委員有幾個人7位7位有幾位1月底任期到期4位4位好那剩下3位是繼續審下去呢還是就沒辦法審那個行政院長會提名請去法院同意所以行政委員會推銷券這一檔杯葛的話這一檔杯葛這個人事案的話"},{"start":12366.861,"end":12383.109,"text":"我當然是 我也不希望啦我當然希望人事案預算案都能夠通過啦我現在講是一種情況嘛如果這樣子就只剩三位而且沒有主委沒有副主委只有三位好 那是對 那我是說是繼續審查呢還是有沒辦法審查"},{"start":12387.904,"end":12406.26,"text":"如果文件齊備 假設他11月齊備了那如果還有足夠的委員來審就會審查文件齊備那時候你們還是7個嘛對不對對 文件齊備如果符合剛才講的30天加60天都沒有去審這個案子就等於准了 他就可以去做了"},{"start":12406.977,"end":12435.948,"text":"對所以我的文件齊備你們在審嘛對不對那審當然會有yes或no嘛是阿如果沒有做出決定就是就是阿三個月可以做出決定嗎所以我們剛剛跟提到就是說11月8號假設齊備了11月8號就開始算30天加60天那假設跨過委員的任期我們正常情況下業務是不會中斷的阿所以因為我們新屆委員會有這個沒有阿就是如果最後只剩下三個啦"},{"start":12438.9,"end":12465.846,"text":"期間還是繼續進行啊對那所以三個還是可以繼續審就對了三個三個我認為說三個一樣可以這個進行準或不準的這個決定就對了三個有可能那要沒有請假沒有其他的情形那我也不建議有這種對啦我是講說最壞的情況是不是那就是說如果遇到只剩下三個的話是不是還會審查下去那還是沒有如果沒有沒辦法審查下去那因為時間到了所以他就準了"},{"start":12467.366,"end":12476.292,"text":"時間到沒有做出決定就是準的意思就是沒有意義嘛沒有意見他就可以做了對啊那會不會說那我意思就是說如果剩下三個的話到底能不能審查"},{"start":12479.311,"end":12502.361,"text":"三個開會要看是不是三個委員都能出席如果有請假或是什麼三個都能夠出席的話能不能做審查三個出席是可以出席可以審議是可以審議所以不會影響到最後這個因為我是擔心啦就是說因為剩下三個沒辦法開會然後讓他讓他就最後就因為是因為你們沒辦法開會的結果讓他就準了會不會發生這種情況"},{"start":12505.951,"end":12516.904,"text":"三個委員可以繼續開會但是我要說明就是說為什麼法定上要設七個就是希望有多數的委員憑他們的專業跟經驗好好的審核案件這我都知道我是假設在野黨黨人是一個人是愛最後只剩下三個"},{"start":12522.23,"end":12522.53,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":12546.704,"end":12571.705,"text":"公平會要負責任三個月時間公平交易法11條第7項第8條跟你一言在言就是三個月你要負起這三個月的審查責任不是三個月過了就自然核准你就是刻意在放水五月收件到八月再補件現在到年底你還不能夠審查你的委員如果七個七個人沒有到的話你就重新再換委員啊怎麼可以不負責任呢"},{"start":12573.575,"end":12573.795,"text":"李主委"},{"start":12599.298,"end":12612.348,"text":"主委請問一下我們這個Full Panda跟UberEats的合併案是由哪一個處來做實質的審查服務業競爭處就是林處長我剛才要延續我們今天主席所講的"},{"start":12625.088,"end":12640.47,"text":"這麼一個社會眾所矚目的一個合併案從5月份收件然後到8月份才要求他補件時間已經過了三個月然後呢你們的任期我們好幾位委員的任期都迫在眉睫"},{"start":12641.531,"end":12643.092,"text":"那我不曉得我們在拖什麼那這個當然就會讓外界認為說你們拖拖拉拉另外呢剛才李昆城委員好像又把這樣的可能的責任推向給在野黨說實在我們現在連NCC的這個新的這個委員現在都已經副委阿要做審查"},{"start":12663.308,"end":12675.28,"text":"所以應該公平會應該行政單位負起的責任不要推給在野黨那本來在我們至少在野黨也沒有要針對公平會委員要做什麼樣的刁難啊"},{"start":12677.284,"end":12698.406,"text":"你們只要提出來的是具有合理的專業的背景我們沒有不準的道理啊所以我覺得這個案子不要最後拿來做政治操作那這個對於廣大的消費者跟廣大的這些外送員事實上是極為不公平的"},{"start":12699.227,"end":12705.71,"text":"那這個事情呢 剛才有委員特別提到 因為我自己當過臺北市議員在2022年的時候 那個時候我們每一個議員還有臺北市政府的消保處電話被打爆為什麼呢 當時Fu Panda在無預警的狀況之下提高了平台的服務費"},{"start":12720.558,"end":12742.565,"text":"那個時候包含這個臺北市光是那個協調的個案好幾百件我們自己本身議員也收到可是即使是如此但是fulpanda完全沒有在理會的照樣當時就直接的提高了服務平台費那這個其實當時是引起大家的重怒可重怒能怎麼辦呢"},{"start":12745.811,"end":12772.548,"text":"當時也有去找公平會 因為公平會說他沒有獨佔不了了之所以這一次在整個的合併的過程裡面我覺得要特別的注意的就是到底有沒有壟斷市場的問題那麼施策會事實上MIC在發布外送平臺大調查的時候也顯示2023年民眾最常用的外送平臺就是Fu Panda跟Uber Eats"},{"start":12773.288,"end":12776.691,"text":"這兩家一旦合併．絕對造成市場的壟斷．所以這個部分只要公平會應該從各個面向包含消費者的權益．我剛才講剛才．在沒有合併之前都有片面突襲式的決斷式的就提高這個服務平台費"},{"start":12794.904,"end":12809.721,"text":"那麼更不要說未來假使是真的變壟斷的話在市場整個獨佔的狀況之下消費者權益在哪裡外送員的權益在哪裡今天我沒有時間跟你討論最近還有一個高高興的一個判例"},{"start":12810.522,"end":12839.034,"text":"對於外眾員極為不合理即便縣市政府想要來做來做一些補償來做一些那個把它那個修正檢討但是呢最後在法令上還是有利於業者所以這一些真的是一定要要高度重視的好我給大家看一下這個是呢我們辦公室我們的update當時我們就曾經就是把我們常常吃的比如說"},{"start":12840.434,"end":12854.102,"text":"數字店的排骨飯乳肉飯光是你店家去吃到你在平台上的這個去做外賣他大概就是增加40塊到50塊為什麼增加那麼多就是因為服務平台費的關係"},{"start":12860.225,"end":12869.951,"text":"在國外其實包含美國有幾個城市他們像紐約舊金山他們都有強制規定你的服務平台費應該是有一個上限的但是我們沒有我們就是由業者自行來去決定所以這樣會造成一個就是這個價格為什麼我們就說為什麼現在消費物價一直漲大家都一直覺得說荷包越來越薄"},{"start":12887.623,"end":12887.803,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":12917.623,"end":12932.766,"text":"另外我剛特別講外送員外送員因為事實上長期以來外送員是弱勢的我剛舉一個例子光是要不要做強制保險地方的自治條例被中央整個的打回票"},{"start":12933.527,"end":12940.332,"text":"所以未來外送員在經過合併的過程裡面他們的權益如何做到合理的保障那當然還有我們在整個的業界這個是一個大家非常關注的這樣的產業平台的一個合併如何能夠在市場極度的這個獨佔的狀況之下還能夠創造這個產業它的一個合理的發展也非常重要"},{"start":12960.805,"end":12967.33,"text":"另外就是呢包含你有沒有一些相關的法規甚至你們可以去建議比如說勞動部的一個相關法規如何讓他更完善我們希望這個合併是要大家互利互贏"},{"start":12976.878,"end":12976.978,"text":"好 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":2002.678,"end":2011.828,"text":"從科研的角度攜手相關部會．達成敬禮目標．也長期支持永續防災與空間資訊等．跨領域相關學問．並將強化與各部會合作機制．"},{"start":2018.513,"end":2038.363,"text":"以在地需求為出發點．定期檢視研究議題．聚焦於本土永續發展方向．鼓勵更多學者投入跨領域研究．也期待更多研究藉階落地應用．或為施政參考依據．以展現科研價值。"},{"start":2039.895,"end":2067.104,"text":"近鄰科技方案在112年已奉行政院合定透過布局五大近鄰科技領域以跨部會協作方式協助社會、產業、生活及能源等四大面向系統轉型推動策略所重以人為本近鄰公司協力進而以科研角度達成國家2050近鄰碳排目標"},{"start":2069.23,"end":2095.586,"text":"113年跨部會進領科技相關預算總經費大約130億元此外國科會自然處下面永續防災與空間資訊三個跨領域學門長期透過大型專案計劃及學門整合型研究實現研究成果回應社會需求及協助行政治理的目標"},{"start":2096.787,"end":2100.011,"text":"以作為政府施政參考依據113年投入經費約4.8億元"},{"start":2106.246,"end":2132.243,"text":"跨域溝通需要持續對話學門的運作亦需要持續精進在確認研究議題方面國科會將聽取各領域建言強化以研究議題導向之學門領域以便適時回應各時期社會發展需求相關學門也必須與學界及各部會討論滾動修正年度研究議題規劃"},{"start":2134.448,"end":2137.57,"text":"在成果落地也要確實展現對產業與社會的具體貢獻,不負人民的期待。"},{"start":2144.775,"end":2168.135,"text":"為確保各學門機制健全．國科會也規劃推動學門精進措施．其使學門召集人、審查委員臨選．計劃審查機制等．更為公平公正公開．使更多學者有機會參與相關跨領域研究．讓研究資源發揮最大縱效．"},{"start":2169.036,"end":2190.69,"text":"此外,國科會亦將推動學門發揮各該專長特色﹑竊合政策發展及技術落地願景﹑使學術研發的成果能實際促進社會進步與全民福祉。過程中,自當與各該領域學者充分討論,擬據共識後方形成執行策略。"},{"start":2198.817,"end":2217.402,"text":"最後國科會再次強調身為推動科學技術發展的專責機構一定秉持多元、平等、包容的精神聽取學界建言擬具共識及研究方向使資源發揮縱效"},{"start":2219.082,"end":2238.611,"text":"面對多元複雜的社會議題透過連結知識政策與治理則無旁貸推動跨領域及跨部會的永續研究以上報告懇請委員鼎力支持並敬祝各位委員平安健康萬事順心謝謝"},{"start":2244.309,"end":2257.418,"text":"謝謝吳主委的口頭報告現在我們進行詢答我們先把議事錄確定因為現在萬美玲委員也在請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2258.941,"end":2270.584,"text":"沒有?那我們議事錄確定喔那我們現在進行詢答每月初期委員質詢10分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為5分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分委員如有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並於本會委員"},{"start":2284.187,"end":2295.852,"text":"陳秀寶質詢結束後進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先我們請發言登記第一位紅夢凱委員質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請吳主委有請主委"},{"start":2315.561,"end":2334.541,"text":"黃委員好吳主委好吳主委今天稍微排這個題目非常有意義我想也是我們大家看到說兩個禮拜前學界有500人連署兩個訴求呼籲國科會要重視永續發展的跨域研究對不對那其中有三個學門的發展方向"},{"start":2337.22,"end":2356.798,"text":"超過500名學者認為是不是跟賴總統推動的國家希望工程背道而馳也批評說國科會有黑箱操作那我想本席剛特別有看了一下你的這個專案報告不過我還是再給一個機會給你好好的來說明一下因為現在學界批評說這是實問虛答"},{"start":2360.775,"end":2385.613,"text":"當然沒有虛答啦我剛剛已經報告很清楚我們對於永續發展是非常重視的所以國會歷年來編列在相關永續的這個經費是逐年在增加特別是我們在國會內部永續學門現在也累積了非常多原來在各個不同領域的教授現在也集合到這個學門裡面來大家可以做這個跨領域的研究"},{"start":2385.953,"end":2409.814,"text":"但我現在請教的是說 這三個學門到底有沒有要做調整的方向沒有 我們這是一個誤會我們後來已經發出澄清的說明也非常清楚的所以我確認學門名稱沒有調整 領域沒有調整沒有調整人員沒有調整沒有調整計畫沒有調整沒有調整都沒有調整主會增加輔會減少是 那為什麼會有這樣的一個空穴來風"},{"start":2411.635,"end":2427.059,"text":"主委你會不會認為如果說我也很希望跟我們國科會站在一起啊如果說沒有調整主委剛剛連說4個沒有那空穴來風是什麼原因還有超過500人以上的這個學界大家連署可能本來無疑是何處了塵埃這個塵埃是怎麼造成的"},{"start":2433.325,"end":2457.284,"text":"可能是在我們國科委內部會議討論的時候我們的自然處是因為這個三個學門我們是持續在發展那業務量非常龐大有些計畫主持人原來是分散在各個其他學門那紛紛到這個地方來提計畫所以本來是在想說是不是有機會也讓其他的處"},{"start":2458.345,"end":2477.152,"text":"的這個行政工作也能夠來協助只是在討論這個可能性而已並沒有要縮減學門的計畫並沒有要縮減經費可能因為內部的討論還沒有對外溝通的時候就已經傳出去了那傳出去以後大家可能是"},{"start":2478.132,"end":2478.512,"text":"主委,分析相信"},{"start":2507.119,"end":2507.542,"text":"永續這個課題不應該被"},{"start":2511.065,"end":2539.63,"text":"因為這是選學嘛在全世界國際大家都在做這個選學近鄰碳排永續環境以及讓我們下一代這一代能夠有更好的環境這本來就是大家都在推動的方向嘛我們有看到這個國科會有一個近鄰科技方案近鄰科技方案從去年提出來到2026年至少這四年的期間會希望往2050近鄰碳排的一個方向來走對不對"},{"start":2540.53,"end":2551.143,"text":"您這邊也上任了這個到目前為止我想請教這四項核心重點目前推動的這個成果如何?"},{"start":2555.319,"end":2582.438,"text":"國科會在上游的基礎科研佈局我們投入非常高減碳潛力的前瞻科研的研發這是國科會的任務我們也協助經濟部在支持中下游產業所需的減碳創新技術研發與輔導中小企業進齡轉型這個我們都是國科會在協助我先請教一下四項核心重點哪四項"},{"start":2589.73,"end":2596.118,"text":"主委,您不清楚事項核心重點嗎?講不出來"},{"start":2597.659,"end":2616.976,"text":"好 來沒關係本席為什麼會沒關係我本席手上有資料我這個是我們去年2023年4月6號行政院的報告那其中方案裡面四項重點以人為本以中為史布局未來比肩國際"},{"start":2620.245,"end":2636.189,"text":"沒關係,我不是要作文比賽,不是要考文字但本席比較想要知道的是既然這個計畫你後面的結語是每年投入150億要做近鄰科技發展滾動式檢討那滾動式檢討所以說4年的計畫2023到2026總共投入600億"},{"start":2642.844,"end":2667.765,"text":"那本席或是說國人總是希望現在已經一年過去了嘛總是我們希望能夠看到一些成果你對這四項核心發展的重點、方向、努力為何但到目前為止本席跟我們辦公室的同仁去找資料還是去年這一份主委能不能滾動的還是說有什麼樣的一個業務的一個成果要讓國人知道"},{"start":2668.558,"end":2669.058,"text":"主委 我的建議啦"},{"start":2697.39,"end":2719.637,"text":"是說是不是能夠有一個成果還是你們每年因為你滾動檢討的部分在於是你的成果到底在哪裡所以黃委員我能不能提供給本市及給外界來做參考那個那個我們112年有個成果報告那113年我們在滾動可能可以再公開那個國科會的網站上來宣導我們可以再繼續做這件事情謝謝委員的指導是主委"},{"start":2722.551,"end":2731.532,"text":"好像對業務還沒有到很熟捏其實啊 那個來啦 主委我再請教每年150億啊不是全都國科會編列預算嗎"},{"start":2734.721,"end":2741.365,"text":"本期另外再來請教我們現在AI人工智慧基本法也公告了兩個月的時間到9月15日截止這個意見的交流那預計10月底會報行政院這個時間沒有問題"},{"start":2761.701,"end":2786.69,"text":"目前還是按照這個時程在進行我們國會已經通過我們的法規會的審查是那修正意見我們也都融進來了好那這一次兩個月的一個公告時間最多人疑慮的重點或是關心的方向是哪一個部分兩邊都有第一個就是產業界在擔心我們會不會採用像歐盟這樣非常嚴格的的這個懲罰的方式那我們的人權團體"},{"start":2787.97,"end":2789.091,"text":"18條人工智慧基本法"},{"start":2804.6,"end":2823.209,"text":"它又是一個概略性等於是說宣誓性的作用也沒有相關法則的部分我們同時在進行的就是我們各部會的作用法的定定是那現在我們更密集跟數位發展部在討論所以10月報行政院是基本法"},{"start":2823.689,"end":2840.007,"text":"那相關的配套也會一起出來相關配套也會說明沒有錯也會一起出來是不是不一定因為最後的這個法案的定定都還是要送到立法院來審查本席的意思是說因為我們現在大家都希望能夠加速嘛"},{"start":2840.287,"end":2863.077,"text":"尤其是全世界各國大家都在做AI那AI部分就要有一個指引至少告訴我們國內所有的民眾到底我們怎麼樣在AI產業裡面有哪些是法令不允許哪些是我們鼓勵大家來做所以基本法只是一個最基本的那後續您剛有提到兩個方向產業界會擔心是不是限縮太多"},{"start":2863.877,"end":2864.137,"text":"我們配套會說明"},{"start":2879.275,"end":2879.415,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":2898.905,"end":2914.632,"text":"理想順利行政院院會通過之後這個會期我們可以來審查我期望如此謝謝本席也期望嘛因為從上個會期我就已經提過本席或是我們葛盧軍委員幾個委員也都有我們的修法版本嘛我們希望是行政院版本趕快過來我們可以一起討論嘛是謝謝那其中"},{"start":2916.923,"end":2929.986,"text":"大家也在提到AI就是所謂的這個超級電腦算力或相關的一個部分我們現在看到說連我們國科會下的這個算力都已經從原本的這個17名掉到106名了"},{"start":2936.837,"end":2954.758,"text":"我們現在正在積極佈建就是上個會期這個是事實我也跟委員報告過我們現在正在蓋新的Data Center那主機的裝置也在積極的進行當中那我們可不可以預想因為現在106名是事實我絕對希望我們都是名列前茅"},{"start":2955.419,"end":2966.655,"text":"但是這個如果說是客觀的事實的話各國也都在發展各國也都在佈建那我們可不可以請教你未來你現在在佈建這所謂超級電腦預計什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":2967.611,"end":2989.708,"text":"我們在明年會先完成在南部科學園區就會那我們預計我們的算力可以提升到什麼名次在未來的幾年之內我們希望能夠提升到280希望能夠進到大概全世界至少在前30名其實我覺得重點在於維持"},{"start":2993.351,"end":3013.958,"text":"主委您能夠認同嗎?這個是跟國際比較,算力只有更多,就沒有最好只有更好,那當我們現在我們認為是說我們在佈建這超級電腦下一代的時候,各國也在佈建,那所以說會不會我們明年後年出來之後,也許我們剛剛講的,你的這樣的一個算力已經算很好了"},{"start":3014.338,"end":3014.478,"text":"我先開始了"},{"start":3034.502,"end":3060.624,"text":"有人提評估因為發展AI的消耗能源極大2028年用電要成長到8倍所以要注意能源穩定的供應主委會不會擔心能源供應的問題我們經濟部很努力我相信可以你們經濟部你什麼時候管到經濟部去我是他們很努力他們很努力那我相信他們可以讓我們沒有這個問題所以你不會擔心我們有能源配比的問題"},{"start":3061.809,"end":3087.65,"text":"我們當然都會擔心但是我相信大家會努力我都相信公務員會努力啊但重點是上面的政策的問題啊那我們現在在講我拉回來第一題啊淨零碳排我們是希望能夠推動淨零嘛你也說經濟部投入最多150億裡面經濟部占大中那您知道在2028年的時候經濟部提供的即便是能源供給無餘經濟部提供超過80%是什麼樣發電嗎"},{"start":3092.43,"end":3100.153,"text":"現在正在努力要開拓綠能我知道 但是到2028年推估您知道超過80%是什麼樣的發電嗎經濟部的業務不便回答主委 這是佛地魔是不是"},{"start":3110.933,"end":3122.048,"text":"火力發電超過80%這不是大家都知道的嗎?連民進黨政府之前的前總統蔡英文2025年淨零碳牌也講啦2025希望非核家園20 30 50 20再生能源30燃氣發電50燃煤發電"},{"start":3126.786,"end":3127.166,"text":"因為已經超過30秒了"},{"start":3143.244,"end":3146.047,"text":"請主委再跟孟楷委員溝通好嗎：或者是之後再以報告給他謝謝孟楷委員請回 主委請回"},{"start":3170.247,"end":3171.488,"text":"主委 今天早上看報紙了沒有"},{"start":3191.237,"end":3193.538,"text":"今天媒體大篇幅報導我國推動台灣AI行動計畫2.0今年編列了252.36億明年再編列157.48億但是AI行動計畫2.0沒有看到成效我國AI這個準備度世界排名19"},{"start":3212.708,"end":3215.072,"text":"為何我們投入這麼多資源但是我們AI進程不升反降?"},{"start":3230.487,"end":3238.275,"text":"主委,我想我的問題非常簡單,投入這麼多的資源也沒有說我們不努力,我想要知道為什麼投入這麼多資源,結果我們的AI進程不升反降,原因是什麼?"},{"start":3250.939,"end":3266.413,"text":"我們主要是在這個應用上面需要在努力發展過去我們比較不注重在自主的應用上面是嗎來主委上一次我們在專報的時候其實本席也發現我們其實從107年我們就開始推動這個AI行動計畫了"},{"start":3272.578,"end":3299.301,"text":"但是依據預算中心的資料我們顯示看到一個很弔詭的就是我國AI準備度世界排名從107年開始下降也就是說107年我們推動這個AI行動計畫但我們整個AI的世界排名從那一刻開始不斷下降所以這是不是代表從那個時候到現在我們很多關於AI的預算包括您剛所說的我們不斷增加很多的經費其實全部都打水漂了"},{"start":3300.202,"end":3324.847,"text":"其實跟委員報告其實並沒有打水標其實台灣是在協助全世界因為我們過去大部分台灣協助全世界結果自己都還顧不好是這樣的嗎忽略了自己的應用你這個情操太高囉就忽略自己讓自己不斷地衰退讓自己不斷地落下來我們沒有衰退你自己都還沒有顧好然後你去顧全世界我們幫全世界創造非常多的"},{"start":3325.327,"end":3349.525,"text":"主委沒有這種說法啦自己家小孩吃不飽然後先餵別人家小孩吃這是什麼理論我們如果沒有這樣的這個產業存在我們也不會有那麼好的經濟發展我想喔我們在這個全世界這邊給予合作或是協助本席絕對贊成喔那但是我想自己台灣的競爭力啊我覺得是不是我們的AI要提升啊這也是必須要注意的嘛所以你同意我這邊說我不同意你剛剛說的啊我們自己沒有顧好先去顧別人這樣有對嗎"},{"start":3353.968,"end":3356.99,"text":"主委啊 謬論啊 自己也要發展好 要兼顧啊 什麼先把全世界都 我們先支持他們 然後自己餓肚子沒關係 沒有這種說法喔如果喔 主委"},{"start":3374.483,"end":3374.503,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":3391.054,"end":3408.125,"text":"接下來本席再跟您討論在主委你剛上任的時候本席也有提醒過主委目前我們AI導入產業的狀況其實非常的差您還記得嗎?當時本席有提醒您不管是個人或者部門有使用生成式AI工具的只有38%左右"},{"start":3410.406,"end":3434.152,"text":"導入公司營運流程只有16%整體台灣企業業還有84%是處於AI化的前期階段之前您剛上來的時候我有跟您提過這個不曉得您有沒有去重視當然我再看到我們國科會在2022台灣AI國力調查中公部門的AI成熟度的等級也只有3.3其實這個整個排行算起來是倒數第三所以其實"},{"start":3434.872,"end":3435.833,"text":"請主委做一個簡單的說明"},{"start":3447.093,"end":3474.626,"text":"好 那個萬委員我跟你報告因為上次也是委員關心這個議題所以因為本來明年預算都編好了我們做了一些調整我們就是把相關的在硬體投資的資源因為我們的硬體已經做得非常的好產業發展得很好我們希望把一部分的這個資源拿來做這個AI應用軟體的開發雲端服務的建置這是我們接下來下年度"},{"start":3475.066,"end":3503.812,"text":"所以現在預算的使用有做調整了是嗎?有做調整了依照各位委員的這個建議我們已經有做調整我想知道這非常的重要所以也就直接問您一下AI的基本法草案現在進度到哪裡了?我們已經公告預告結束預告結束我們國會法規會也討論通過做非常小的修正我們連同這些修正就在10月底之前我們會送到行政院"},{"start":3505.432,"end":3525.179,"text":"主委我想本期在這裡再一次提醒您我想我們要打造這個AI之島其實不是只有這個您剛剛所說的說只是先賺錢然後這個AI供應鏈的這個護國群山產業去賺錢然後外銷出口的數字量力其實這是成績之一但是它不是全部所以我想我們要怎麼樣把這個AI的技術實際運用在我們的民生我們自己台灣我覺得這非常的重要"},{"start":3531.221,"end":3532.362,"text":"您同意嗎?同意所以您也是賴總統國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員嗎?對嗎?"},{"start":3561.865,"end":3574.409,"text":"8月8日您去參加第一次會議之後,那這個會議裏面包括淨零路線、綠能減碳等等有七大不同跨領域的議題在裏頭那會議當中也有提到永續發展對不對?"},{"start":3574.409,"end":3577.81,"text":"是所以永續發展是不是國家政策?"},{"start":3579.511,"end":3605.468,"text":"所以我相信你也會往國家政策的這個方向來走但是今天我們剛剛有委員提到其實在這個主委參加完這個總統說主席的會議之後傳出國科會以跨領域研究擴於分散不具成效那麼就要去拆解三學門到其他領域或者轉入工程處那剛剛本席聽您在答局的時候說這是一個天大的誤會但是我要講"},{"start":3608.55,"end":3625.776,"text":"第一個當時續名的理由這麼清楚那傳出來就是說您是因為跨領域研究過於分散而且不具成效那看來你說完全是空穴來風嗎恐怕也未必再來高達600位學者去連署這600位學者我想不管是他們的這個見識啦專業啦"},{"start":3628.817,"end":3628.837,"text":"再來﹖"},{"start":3643.994,"end":3660.108,"text":"這件事已經開始連署已經燒起來了但是您國科會回答的是說包括您剛剛在回答也是說我們很重視我們年年都有編預算這到底是回答什麼東西大家是在問您說為什麼要去把這三個選門去拆解掉這個有符合永續"},{"start":3660.768,"end":3661.409,"text":"報告委員,我們並沒有要猜解,從來都沒有講過這句話"},{"start":3684.045,"end":3701.454,"text":"所以嘛今天大家才問你嘛第一個為什麼學者會這麼認為第二個為什麼媒體會這麼認為第三個為什麼今天我們委員在請教你的時候得到的答案你還是只是告訴我們說沒有啊我們很重視啊所以我們都有變預算啊所以你能不能再說清楚一點完全空穴來風這是不可能的"},{"start":3702.028,"end":3719.575,"text":"我剛剛已經講得非常清楚但是我也不知道為什麼會有這麼多人會連署那如果對我不滿意那當然也可以來舉出具體的我們看看怎麼樣去討論去改善所以您認為這件事情是空穴來風是衝著您個人來對您不滿意"},{"start":3723.794,"end":3747.894,"text":"主委所以這個焦點很奇怪嘛大家在討論一個這個很具體的永續的一個事情然後你會扯到說對您個人滿不滿意喔那當然我想說您要讓大家滿意這件事當然是很重要但是我想政策的方向性跟延續性跟執行力這才是最重要的啦可是政策沒有改變啊我們完全都沒有變啊"},{"start":3748.655,"end":3758.324,"text":"所以我想以後就要更審慎如果什麼都沒有為什麼學者會這樣誤會媒體會這樣誤會我覺得這也是主委要去檢討的地方那再來呢自己檢討檢討您個人嗎"},{"start":3765.693,"end":3791.173,"text":"主委,我想再查閱我們國科會自然科學及永續研究發展處的網站那洋洋灑灑其實總共大概有11個學門但是呢本期發現在這網站中各個學門的介紹內容真的乏善可陳有很多學門的資料其實已經很多年沒有更新了還有一些這個部分的學門只有成員的介紹跟次領域的代碼這是為什麼"},{"start":3792.509,"end":3811.813,"text":"我請我們治安署處長來回回應我們有些是因為年度的更動我們並沒有去update所以年度的更動好幾年不更動也算一種年度的更動抱歉所以要不要改進我們會改進 謝謝"},{"start":3816.716,"end":3830.952,"text":"這是非常不好的好不好因為你創建這麼多學門也投入很多的這個研究費用嘛那你就應該讓民眾大家清楚了解啊這種啊多年不更動叫做年度有更動這我們不能接受喔如果是這樣的話這個預算給的是冤枉好不好"},{"start":3831.653,"end":3842.478,"text":"接下來呢我想一樣我們又看到一個2022年永續發展學門的一個說明裡面有一個整合研究計畫的補助情形那本席發現新申請的案件從109年開始下降從251件下降到218件那更嚴重的是新申請案件通過比率從107年的49%下降到111年的35.8%那為什麼就申請數越來越少然後這個"},{"start":3858.985,"end":3863.208,"text":"因為我們整合型計畫多年起的這個合併越來越多所以新申請的自然就會減少因為我們的經費都一直在增加沒有減少經費是在增加當中"},{"start":3883.116,"end":3883.156,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":3902.353,"end":3902.373,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":3930.285,"end":3935.63,"text":"主委請回謝謝萬美玲委員我們再來請柯智恩委員質詢謝謝主席我們是不是請吳主委請主委"},{"start":3949.326,"end":3965.35,"text":"科學委員好各位我想我很清楚范委員為什麼要排這個我們同樣來自學界所以當有600個學者要連署這是知識體大的一件事情那我們也知道我們長期也都申請過科會我們當然都申請人文人文說實在你看評比起來我真的覺得還蠻還蠻覺得蠻心酸的我們家總的預算來說人文處大概處長有沒有在50幾億然後我們自然處我再幫你講話你可以坐下來沒有問題"},{"start":3977.233,"end":3977.694,"text":"自然處60幾億工程處80幾億"},{"start":3993.546,"end":4011.108,"text":"主委也不用那麼樣無奈我說實在的今天你剛剛回答第一位紅委員的問題的時候你說可能是就是有一些行政人員的變動或者在內部的做一些的討論造成這麼的軒然大波但是主委我說實在的那表示國科會裡面整個的行政系統太脆弱"},{"start":4011.749,"end":4028.473,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":4028.513,"end":4028.693,"text":"好,我們會檢討"},{"start":4051.104,"end":4067.019,"text":"好 這個還是有多一點的無奈但是我還是必須告訴主委有很多人跟我們來反映國科會目前為止其實沒有太大的一個溝通的一個做法學界是基本上是非常不滿的你不要看這個學界的這個整併不管它是不是一個事實即使總金額不變"},{"start":4068.08,"end":4074.582,"text":"光是每一個的專長在這個學門的分配當中你不要說什麼跨領域需要做一些的整合每一個在細節細分到這個學科你也知道已經細分到有稍微對於他們未來研究有任何的影響他們大家都會跳腳所以這個部分裡面真的是勸主委千萬不要再從上到下你要建立一個SOP然後我也很擔心你未來可能要調整學門可能你有一些的需求因為這件事件之後呢讓你完全裹足不前你看"},{"start":4095.788,"end":4096.048,"text":"謝謝各位人謝謝"},{"start":4117.273,"end":4123.516,"text":"但是我們人文處是不是經費可以多一點?我說實在的生年人真的是不少,然後竟然是差工程工程處差了30億這項花嗎?有啦,我們人文處經費也是逐年在增加但是差的工程處還是30億好不好?"},{"start":4133.041,"end":4133.581,"text":"來我們來看一下"},{"start":4151.67,"end":4174.841,"text":"基本上這整個都還是牽涉到整個人才上面的培育喔你104 你的114裡面你這科發基金裡面你大概編列了57億但是呢然後呢這些的名詞我說實在我每次看到國科會提出的名詞我都要追憶以前有千里馬計畫以前有什麼樣的東西然後現在又有一個跨領域然後2030學者養成哇塞 這個名詞非常的多我們一一來檢視一下我們先看下一頁審計部的審核報告裡面啊 抱歉"},{"start":4179.143,"end":4184.428,"text":"國際領域整合計劃當中你逐年減少而且連續兩年你的執行率未達五成這未達五成主委這你要不要稍微稍微說一下為什麼連續兩年不僅是你核定的補助的案件逐年減少而且你的達成率是未達五成的這個部分難道"},{"start":4201.002,"end":4201.663,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":4219.423,"end":4219.623,"text":"主委 這概念中﹖"},{"start":4244.008,"end":4248.211,"text":"你花了這麼多錢然後來做這樣的事情卻有14%的人是提早離職的我再告訴你一個還蠻嚴重的就是你看看102到110 10年我們看一個計畫10年其實很準的你有178位然後這些所謂博士級的研究人員他是連續的補助10到22次這代表什麼"},{"start":4269.426,"end":4282.23,"text":"你看還有123位不斷的計劃結束完就是他是約聘嘛他都不是full time的job他是約聘然後計劃結束完之後呢他再來簽約再來簽約再來簽約然後重複的人其實是非常的多主委你應該知道嘛如果你都讓他用約聘然後這個計劃完再簽約他永遠都是在這個position所以你覺得這對高階科研的人才幫助有幫助嗎"},{"start":4295.834,"end":4317.257,"text":"我們當然是希望我們的各大學在聘用人才的時候盡量用正職啦但是但是你看你這些計畫你所培養這些人就是一個計畫3年5年結束之後再來給他簽約他永遠就在這個處在這個狀況當中但是我們現在因為各大學的教育不要是大學你的產業也沒有啊所以我只是告訴你"},{"start":4317.817,"end":4335.923,"text":"但是學界離職的大部分是到產業去了,因為產業需求人力的確...其實我們看到的投入產業跟學界任職找到正職的就是我所看到的,我包括產業界表示這些人就是不斷的在重複的申請你們的這個延攬的補助計畫,他永遠在延攬補助計畫"},{"start":4337.563,"end":4344.048,"text":"從學界離開以後我想指這178個你去看這178個這是數據我不要講結的這178個你們專門補助的所以我還是要特別提到這個部分來說然後呢國會過去只要遇到成效不佳可能你才剛上任國會只要過去這個成效不佳的時候呢你們就開始都會說這是我們我們要來精進我們的執行率我們要精進執行率結果呢你的做法是什麼"},{"start":4363.061,"end":4368.382,"text":"重新調整經費的配比重新讓計劃換一個名詞看起來好像成效比較高了但是呢我還是要說這對我們的整個的科研真的是沒有太大的幫助這我還是要誠心的提出這樣的一個呼籲否則你再變太多的錢你沒有給他們一個這樣的空間我說實在每個人就是用這個約聘的方法補助完再來補助再補一輩子做這樣的事情喔說實在國會這樣的花錢到底有沒有效我就要請這個主委要好好的思考一下"},{"start":4390.488,"end":4390.668,"text":"最後來看一下﹚"},{"start":4420.268,"end":4420.488,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4439.138,"end":4439.198,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4469.779,"end":4471.321,"text":"報告委員,我們現在是以南部從嘉義以南科學園區所在的這個範圍主要是技術體系,我們希望把需求端的產業"},{"start":4486.101,"end":4488.324,"text":"每個學校,所有聽到這個東西的話每個學校上來問,你可不可以告訴我一個標準啊,我電話接不完欸"},{"start":4504.103,"end":4530.211,"text":"高雄參旅學校有沒有?你要創新產業有沒有高雄參旅?都有都有我們其實所有學校我們都歡迎我們沒有B學校但是所有學校願意你知道高雄幾所技職學校嗎?主委你知道嗎?我們指的不是高職端是大專我們不只有15間好不好我們有10所技職教育大學10所技術型高中還有很多來下面還有什麼?"},{"start":4532.365,"end":4543.43,"text":"就是科大跟專科學校好啦那我就發個函啦因為很多人問我我就問到完全不行了然後我就發個函給你們來你看一下你們怎麼回覆我我問科委員報告你先聽我講完欸主委你說15間學院是會表達南部所具備的科技人才供給能量並非已經確定參與本案的學校名單如果你是這樣的話請你以後不要講15座好不好"},{"start":4556.135,"end":4557.076,"text":"對不起對不起我們要改善我們是歡迎所有的技職大專院校所以你會有一個標準"},{"start":4570.765,"end":4595.646,"text":"沒有沒有沒有,我們政案的時候會有應用的這個類別,那會有…所以不是只有15間?不是不是,所有的寄專院校我們都歡迎所以下次新聞稿裡面的部分裡面,你不曉得你們隨便一個經費,大家都很期望能夠獲得這樣的一個補助所以呢你就指名15間,然後我們根本不指這些學校,會造成一個非常大的部分然後你的回應也表達我說實在的你們並沒有準備好"},{"start":4596.767,"end":4598.029,"text":"因為現在正在準備當中計畫是明年開始所以我覺得這個宣傳跟這個實際的作為我覺得這個跟我們的理解是有一個很大的落差"},{"start":4614.828,"end":4625.86,"text":"最後一個就是有關於你們有一個南科追夢的計畫我還是要特別提醒你們全部都往台北去做一個而且就看得出來你們完全就是希望能夠有到能夠做一個南漂兩部曲我給予肯定鼓勵北部的優秀青年能夠到南下來追夢但是我說實在的"},{"start":4633.848,"end":4633.908,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4651.815,"end":4670.327,"text":"我們這些學校都歡迎我們一直都有跟他們在合作你們都有在合作問題是你們這個又是一個大的宣傳告訴我裡面就是積極的去北上徵尋人才然後呢對於南部這些學校來說的話到底什麼時候可以來把這樣的同樣北部這麼盛大的狀況裡面同時通通在在南部裡面好好的辦大一場"},{"start":4672.608,"end":4683.231,"text":"我們真的是在努力第一南部的人才可以留在南部工作第二我們也歡迎北漂人才回來我請吳主委你協調南科管理區在今年計劃解體之前或者明年可以到高雄到南部來辦真正的讓更多人願意到南部來不要讓北跟南互作一個失衡所以這是你承諾的要到這個部分來做這樣的一個處理好不好"},{"start":4697.876,"end":4698.316,"text":"下一位我們請葉元芝委員質詢"},{"start":4731.937,"end":4753.945,"text":"請問主委我順著柯真委員問一下因為你現在要編360億創南台灣的生態系推動方案打造南台灣成為人工智慧之島那我想問一下那種北台灣你現在是要把AI移到南台灣去是不是"},{"start":4755.636,"end":4762.905,"text":"現在只是說平台放到南台灣但是服務的對象是全國的那產業也是涵蓋全國那對於北台灣你有什麼計畫嗎?"},{"start":4769.232,"end":4791.811,"text":"我們因為預算編列要逐年不能夠一下編太多所以北台灣我們也會做中台灣也會做怎麼做嗎?就是南台灣我們現在把平台建起來以後我們會循同樣的模式因為要讓它成功如果不成功我們擴散也沒有用所以一樣的模式到時候會在中台灣跟北台灣做都會做南台灣你編的是五年的計畫"},{"start":4793.132,"end":4812.472,"text":"所以你預計什麼時候才會擴散到中台灣跟北台灣我們大概第一年執行以後大概就有個眉目了那北台灣其實我們在行政院已經有通過一個桃竹苗大細股的方案它的內容還沒有很具體所以當我們在內容還沒有很具體所以是"},{"start":4813.012,"end":4841.109,"text":"因為現在還在討論哪些區域要涵蓋進來所以有可能會在北台灣北台灣當然也會有 一定會有的就是說你也是要照顧一下我們北台灣也會 當然希望不要太久啦因為聽起來現在好像還沒有具體的計畫可是預算有限啦我知道預算有限但是因為我們來自北台灣當然希望能夠為北台灣爭取希望能夠快一點那另外就是我們AI如果要成長的話用電量會大增你對我們現在的電力有信心嗎"},{"start":4842.847,"end":4862.789,"text":"有信心有信心喔?你跟台電有研究過是不是?有問過台電?台電我跟台電還是台電有告訴你說絕對供電無虞?因為之前郭志輝部長也講說台灣要發展AI的話一定要可能不排除用核電但後來還有改口了啦現在"},{"start":4864.812,"end":4880.762,"text":"我不為難你的主委總而言之你站在產業的立場我覺得你也要如果說行政院有機會溝通的話也要注意他們要電的問題然後另外一個就是說因為我看到你在立法院詢答的時候很有信心就是說台灣應該在3年內我們的AI實力會超過日韓"},{"start":4882.91,"end":4906.585,"text":"但是我們立法院預算中心所提出來的報告指出我們AI排名跟超級電腦算力持續落後而且根據國際排名AI的準備度112年世界排名是14名現在下滑到19名落後新加坡南韓日本跟中國大陸所以如果你要在3年之內超過南韓的信心來自於哪裡"},{"start":4907.466,"end":4930.268,"text":"我們已經開始在編列預算未來幾年預算會投入雲端運算機房的這個建置所以之前是預算不足才落後只要我們預算編下去我們就會超前這個意思過去我們的重點可能比較注重在但是你會編預算別人日本韓國也會編預算所以我們在應用上也要再加強"},{"start":4933.59,"end":4955.621,"text":"因為這個題目很大我覺得主委講的稍微抽象一點我覺得有機會的話你應該把它具體一點再跟大家討論因為你的目標很宏大但是大家現在看起來不曉得你的具體做法在哪裡如果說只有變預算恐怕還是不夠"},{"start":4957.823,"end":4968.862,"text":"我們政府的鋼藥計畫方案已經編了編了以後接下來到年底之前就會有一些執行的真正的計畫就會出現到時候會跟大家報告"},{"start":4971.509,"end":4992.897,"text":"專題報告叫《永續科研與政策溝通》我知道為什麼早晚會排這個題目當然是因為有大概有600個學者吧就是針對國科會要把這幾個學門把它拆解重組表達非常的不滿我會表示這個不存在這個議題不存在但是因為我後來看了國科會對於後來到600個學者連署對這600個學者的回應實際上我覺得也是有點實問虛答"},{"start":4999.719,"end":5004.515,"text":"因為國安會的講法是說沒有沒有我們的預算編列有增加所以增加到48億是不是 是嗎"},{"start":5007.356,"end":5033.35,"text":"所以今年48億明年52億4.8億是國會本身但是我們永續的議題是100多億因為你們的回應是4.8億但是我覺得學者應該在乎的不是錢的問題因為所有的一個研究它需要長期的戰略跟長期的規劃那你忽然間把一些學問他可能正在進行當中的學問你把它拆解重組對於他的研究他忽然打亂了報告委員沒有要拆解啦"},{"start":5037.032,"end":5050.003,"text":"學者是這樣覺得嘛所以這中間又出現很大的問題啊所以今天稍微排的是永續發展科研與政策溝通這就很奇怪就是說你在這邊講說完全沒有這個問題結果有600個學者連署反對你"},{"start":5053.466,"end":5077.824,"text":"那大家吃飽撐著沒事幹去做這個事嗎?不可能嘛你一定是在溝通上出現了問題嘛如果你從來都沒有要去改變的話那人家是夢到嗎?還是忽然間是怎樣有人造謠嗎?一定是你們在對外宣傳的部分透露出這樣的訊息大家緊張你可以說他超前部署所以他做了這個動作嘛過程當中絕對有問題你不可能說他們無緣故去做這個動作"},{"start":5079.806,"end":5098.942,"text":"所以我覺得那個主委假設啦並沒有要拆解重組這件事情的話那你應該去檢討請問一下在政策溝通的過程當中出現什麼問題我覺得這個是今天可能啦我猜趙偉可能要排這個題目的原因啦但是呢這個你就自己因為等一下趙偉可能會罵你啦我就不多說話了"},{"start":5100.644,"end":5117.202,"text":"但是我就想繼續問因為今天既然講到永續發展跟所謂的淨零碳排我想問主委一個問題我們都知道其實中國大陸在這一塊是表現非常優秀根據外媒的報導比如說至少他們在中國大陸在"},{"start":5119.465,"end":5120.846,"text":"我記得竹偉你在剛上任的時候你有提到"},{"start":5146.522,"end":5156.222,"text":"你不排斥跟中國的科技做交流你也說你也無意讓中國科技持續落後只要在合乎法律的情況之下國會都會支持跟對岸來往"},{"start":5156.994,"end":5176.34,"text":"但是我們後來就看了一下現在的兩岸的交流我們就發現說好像屬於一種幾乎停滯的狀態左邊的圖是國際的交流其實在國際的交流方面就已經有下滑的趨勢你看2024年合定的件數355件已經比2017年幾乎腰斬左邊是國際的部分右邊是"},{"start":5181.804,"end":5210.172,"text":"國科會補助邀請大陸地區暨香港澳門科技人士來台的這個申請跟核定表到2024年只有三件然後預算總共是只有19萬等於是說你只有大概補助19萬那我們在整個計畫大概編多少錢呢我們的整個計畫大概編了3億多3億多中國大陸的補助19萬其實它的比例是非常的低那除了這個資料之外呢還有另外我們也可以看到"},{"start":5211.861,"end":5228.584,"text":"這是補助兩岸學術科技交流的申請跟核定的件數2024年申請18件 核定5件不管是申請件數跟核定件數都往下滑的趨勢請教一下主委現在兩岸到底學術是遇到什麼問題"},{"start":5231.716,"end":5254.105,"text":"國科會當然是一直鼓勵我們的學術研究我們的學者能夠跟全世界的學者交流往來才會進步那目前跟大陸方面的這樣的這個交流是受限於大陸方面對台灣的不友善的行為所引起的"},{"start":5254.525,"end":5277.758,"text":"所以是我們是我們邀他不來還是說因為我們覺得他不友善所以我們連邀都沒邀我們即使我們邀他們啊他們他們的國內啊其實也有自己的限制存在那我們這邊也要透過我們不是只有國科會我們還有行政院的機制在對因為因為我的瞭解不是這樣瞭解是說現在"},{"start":5278.818,"end":5303.703,"text":"你要申請學術對岸過來學術交流好像要專案審查嘛專案審查陸委會那邊就會擋了嘛那我是覺得學術歸學術政治歸政治啦就是說如果大家認為兩岸科技交流特別是我剛講在永續發展跟氣候變遷這一塊連美國都要跟中國大陸交流那台灣也可以秉持著就是科學交流的精神嘛對不對把政治撇一邊啦"},{"start":5305.251,"end":5328.681,"text":"我記得這個也是竹偉你上任的一個理想你就是說只要在不違反法律的情況之下兩岸科技多交流是好事我們只要法令允許可是實際上看得出來這個數字真的是下滑非常多那我就覺得非常可惜我覺得非常可惜就是因為政治的關係讓科技無法持續的合作那再來我想跟竹偉問一個計畫的進度比如說我們不是"},{"start":5334.517,"end":5339.425,"text":"國科會在之前前主委吳政宗那時候就已經對外宣布說台灣要在"},{"start":5341.166,"end":5364.081,"text":"捷克布拉格成立台灣第一座IC設計海外訓練基地那個時候講得非常的盛大那這件事情在賴清德總統今年6月接見捷克參議院的首席副議長德拉霍斯的時候也說在政府推動台捷韌性計畫之下台灣第一個IC設計海外訓練基地要在布拉格落腳那當時講的"},{"start":5366.553,"end":5372.665,"text":"時間是9月要落成因為今天已經是9月最後一天了這個今天會落成嗎?"},{"start":5373.84,"end":5401.435,"text":"今天不會我跟委員報告因為捷克也是一個自由民主國家跟台灣一樣所以他們的執政聯盟其實多個政黨所組成的所以他們在內部針對我們跟我們合作的這個對象大學還有政府的單位其實還有一些不同多元的意見他們還在整合所以他們現在是他們不願意就對了"},{"start":5401.715,"end":5426.481,"text":"不是不願意,他們還在整合意見他們有怎麼樣的意見要需要整合?就是執行的單位跟政府的應該講權責單位之間他們還在溝通那最近又碰到捷克的選舉所以中間有一點這個那你覺得你有信心說這個東西會落成嗎?現在你等於是說你就是行政流程的問題嗎?"},{"start":5427.701,"end":5451.938,"text":"還有他們的政黨之間溝通政府溝通的問題所以確定會做這件事情只是9月沒完成只是可能會延緩那我們持續跟他們在討論那大概什麼時候他們現在因為選舉剛剛結束政府可能也會重組所以可能還是會再有一段時間我們並沒有說放棄啦並沒有放棄所以還是持續溝通大概什麼時候嘛因為本來講9月嘛"},{"start":5454.42,"end":5455.96,"text":"主委請回,謝謝葉元芝委員,再來我們請林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":5484.889,"end":5490.693,"text":"主席、同仁、大家好。我們先請吳主委。請吳主委。林委員好。主委好。你來了大概快半年了,所以對於國科會,我想先前你已經有一些了解,只是在不同的角色,我想你應該有不同的體悟跟對於業務有更深一層的看法。您到的時候,我們正好也有這個機會交流,"},{"start":5515.67,"end":5531.38,"text":"您當時也表現出很強的善意我覺得您在學術的這個部分應該我們也是可以來交談的所以是不是可以請教一下主委本席在我們交談過程當中我們有交換一些意見"},{"start":5532.14,"end":5549.068,"text":"您對於我意見的﹖您有一個允諾﹖那我想說那個非常的好爽﹖這是以前在學界碰到的狀況﹖結果您一下子就允諾了﹖那我只想請教一下﹖那這個部分﹖就當時您允諾的這個﹖目前的進度是如何﹖"},{"start":5550.28,"end":5570.891,"text":"林委員交代的事情其實我們應該都有執行對不起要不要提醒一下您應該我們談的大概一兩個重點那其中一個因為我本身是原住民所以我都會特別關心原住民的這個部分那當時我跟您反映過說這個"},{"start":5573.872,"end":5577.176,"text":"您也很豪爽地答應說其實給大家一些空間所以目前的進度大概是如何?"},{"start":5589.992,"end":5606.181,"text":"我們已經編入我們那個計畫裏面就是那個執行方案裏面所以這個議題我們馬上就會實施了那我想請教一下就是因為今年113年那你們應該去年已經有發函了嘛"},{"start":5606.981,"end":5634.626,"text":"通常都是大家知道你們發函才知道那個可以申請的方向那你們這個是明年編錄然後後年才會執行還是說你們其實在計畫的內容項目上應該今年的扣案就年底前我想應該是可以啦如果說經費上沒有問題的話所以我想請教一下那過往你們在這個整合的平台上是怎麼樣來確定方向跟方式呢"},{"start":5635.618,"end":5654.831,"text":"是有關原住民議題﹖對﹖對﹖對是﹖那我請我們人文處﹖可以請教一下﹖謝謝委員﹖報告委員那我們的徵求的方向都是召開諮詢委員會那我們今年的議題是族群關係也就是說原住民跟其他的族群之間的關聯是我們今年的公案重點那也順便回答一下剛剛委員關心的個別型那以前都沒有"},{"start":5655.291,"end":5673.747,"text":"在委員的建議底下我們今年真的把它編入但是我們是希望說用個別型然後希望可以未來是成為整合型也就是說我們接受個別委員的提案但是我們希望他可以提案說未來幾年他可以成為一個整合型的團隊我們也是用這樣的方式在促進學界之間的一個提升能量謝謝"},{"start":5676.029,"end":5691.475,"text":"謝謝說明因為剛才你們談到今年這個議題所以對議題這個部分我有很深的感觸想要跟這個主委這邊來討論也就是您講的族群關係其實跟國科會我後面講的議題都有一些接近只是正好你們又講到今年的主題是族群關係"},{"start":5694.036,"end":5721.676,"text":"主委因為國科會其實它有一大塊那尤其是今天我們談的這個永續跟這個政策那我是不是可以建議就在原住民的這個研究方面是不是可以給我們多一點機會不要把我們常常鎖在博物館的這個想像裡面所以談到原住民我們就只有族群但是其實像你們的很多的議題其實原住民在這裡面都有一些佔比跟其實可以學習跟研究的東西那我們待會再慢慢來討論好不好"},{"start":5723.398,"end":5741.275,"text":"這個其實在原住民族研究的這個部分我剛才講的是議題所以這個議題的部分我希望能夠跟會內來更細緻更往前討論一下不要把我們都鎖在某一些認同或者是族群那其實因為有一個大方向大家會往這邊走"},{"start":5742.456,"end":5764.065,"text":"所以在今天談的永續其實好多項都跟原住民有關所以接下來我簡單談一下第一個是剛才我說那個比例上我待會還會再談那目前會內當然有一些這個經費的比例但是整體來講就行政院我看整體比例其實是少於一的那不知道主委知不知道原住民在全台的這個比例大概有多少"},{"start":5765.646,"end":5792.412,"text":"全台原住民的總數大概...抱歉數字我不清楚那要不然會內再去查一下如果有您講的4到5%那可能比例又更低了那個報告委員我們科技預算其實也有編在我們的原住民委員會裡面也有所以我是說整體來講我這邊搜羅了一次那發現整體好像還是比"},{"start":5794.892,"end":5818.565,"text":"剛剛施助長也有提到說我們特別為了原住民的研究也編了這個預算就是專案的部分你們大概編了5800萬如果我這邊沒有看錯的話你們回去再整理我們再來確認一下好不好至於議題的部分我想我們請人文處也到時候也跟林委員也討論一下是不是議題恰當對啦議題方向可以再多給我們一些開放性好不好"},{"start":5819.145,"end":5819.165,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":5834.76,"end":5857.523,"text":"所以我為什麼會對那個議題想要跟大家再交流一下也就是族群關係大家很容易想像社會人文但是好像我們在其他的處裡面都感覺會缺席所以我只是提醒這一點所以在研究的這個你們的機制上因為機制要討論大概很多細節所以你們有一個原住民族社會永續科學計畫那我提醒幾點"},{"start":5858.464,"end":5883.071,"text":"第1個就是說平台的建立要以我們的需求原住民的需求還有原住民的未來性所以大家現在對我們的想像都是在過去好像我們從來都不會從土人不好意思我是開玩笑我們常常都是這樣子的刻板印象那在科技研究上我很期待這一點是不是可以讓我們在現在的社會跟未來的發展都有可能另外一個資源配比還有原住民族的受益狀況這個可能在你們的學者"},{"start":5886.312,"end":5914.48,"text":"原住民的比例跟非原住民的比例還有原住民的那個議題其實整體都是連結在一體的然後第三個就參與程度的自主性這個其實從過去我們很多研究都可以看得出來可能學者研究然後原住民這個我在民間一直聽到有這樣子的聲音也就是大家都是被動的然後在這裡面可能有很多被動的被研究但是研究的這個主體性可能還要再更強化一點"},{"start":5915.69,"end":5938.369,"text":"謝謝委員 這個我們相當認同對對對但是我可能這個部分未來會再更強力的監督跟溝通交流好不好好 謝謝那另外你們在談永續科研的這個部分藍炭跟原住民傳統領域我這邊很快的提供幾點那請你們在這個部分也可以置放進去然後稍微更多做一點著力第一個就是共管模式的可能性還有傳統知識在你們藍炭的這個過程當中因為藍炭很深的一個議題"},{"start":5940.891,"end":5960.822,"text":"我就是提醒這個部分我們不想缺席還有我們的文化跟生態的這個融合好那接下來就談你們國科會在這個原住民的這個補助大概5800萬那我剛才講少於1應該整個行政院大概比例上是少於1%的所以我們如果以所謂的科技的量化指標那我們當然在這裡面先這樣子做一個比較"},{"start":5961.642,"end":5985.528,"text":"所以在原住民的經費配比如果我們在這幾年的執行上我們有這樣子的量能是不是也有機會來做一個提高是 如果我們相關的學者進來研究這些相關議題我們的通過率國科會有一個平均大約在60%左右如果研究的人數增加我們經費一定會提高的"},{"start":5986.728,"end":6014.674,"text":"謝謝主委然後第二點其實我覺得這是一個普遍的問題雖然我針對原住民族學術人才的培育與支持來問但是接下來其實有一個跟主委也很有關然後跟剛才也有一些委員的這個質詢也有關就是整個人才研究人才的培育跟未來的出路那這不僅是原住民我在這邊也特別注意原住民這個區塊那我們往下一頁看我們就會看到那個也是在今年暑假的一個調查那個報紙的調查"},{"start":6015.974,"end":6040.954,"text":"其實在先前有人訪問您的時候我先回到前一章我想請教一下我非常受到主委這句話的感動我們希望有本土培育出來的諾貝爾獎我是真的很有感受因為以前在我的領域我是很想拿世界大獎的可是到我畢業的時候我連世界大賽的資訊都沒有所以主委這個部分你怎麼去成就我們如何培育出本土的諾貝爾獎得主"},{"start":6042.779,"end":6064.15,"text":"我們就是期望不要以行政的力量干預我們的學術讓它沒有天花板所以只要是能夠對於增進人類福祉社會貢獻的話這種研究我們一定都會努力來支持希望說我們的學界的研究不要只以論文發表為導向"},{"start":6065.871,"end":6067.113,"text":"而是強調社會人類的貢獻這樣才有辦法產生比較大的影響力讓台灣在全世界被看到"},{"start":6077.559,"end":6099.627,"text":"對,那您講的這個論文的這個部分或許有所謂數量跟它真正貢獻這個區塊的一個討論那我們都知道質非常的難討論但是量或許是大家現在看得到的那或許主委就必須要在這裡面再做一些一個適度的平衡"},{"start":6100.547,"end":6123.374,"text":"不是只有評審人 我想您可能要做很大的努力才能夠調整大家目前對這樣一個量的迷思所以這其實有些東西是結合在一起第一個是這則報告再講到我們這個科研人才的這個成效當然它的重點是在未來研究人才何去何從我覺得這是會裡面可不可以幫這些研究人才想一想"},{"start":6123.914,"end":6124.034,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6142.743,"end":6160.818,"text":"我們在計畫的補助上跟計畫的未來性或許可以一起來考量這個是這則報道我給一點建議我們不是說報道他可能有他的想法但是我看到是一個系統性的問題所以是不是國科會在這裡面可以有更多一點的角色"},{"start":6162.279,"end":6189.125,"text":"最後一個提醒就是說當然剛才主委您講到其實所謂論文那論文我們講到量跟值但是量就是大家現在的迷思那這個量呢我們經常都是我們有很多的量但是我們被引用的數量其實是少的也就這個可能在貢獻度上就會有一些影響那有一個報導台灣在這個量的部分大概是居全球20幾名可是我們在被引用的數量是全球倒數的"},{"start":6189.945,"end":6217.497,"text":"但是荷蘭在量的部分也是20幾名可是在被引用的數據上也是20幾名這相對是平衡的所以我很期待未來能夠聽到主委談論一下我們如何打破這個量的迷思可是值又怎麼樣被評價我想這個是我一個提醒未來我也會針對我這幾個方向再跟主委還有會裡面來更進一步的探討"},{"start":6218.773,"end":6231.217,"text":"謝謝委員這是我們努力的方向謝謝主委加油主委請回謝謝林倩琦委員再來我們請吳珮委員來代主席然後OK謝謝"},{"start":6247.168,"end":6248.308,"text":"接下來請范雲委員進行質詢范委員好"},{"start":6270.243,"end":6295.676,"text":"主委早安剛剛葉元之委員說我要罵你沒有要罵你我要釐清一些事情今天我們的主題其實是永續科研及政策溝通我是想了很久永續科研是有雙重意義當然您知道最近的學門爭議可是永續科研還有另外一個意義是科研其實是應該要永續的"},{"start":6296.696,"end":6316.801,"text":"那可不可以請問主委,如果要請您一句話講國科會的執掌你會怎麼講?國科會的執掌是什麼?國科會的任務是要協助我們國家來培養科研的人才為了要培養人才我們要投入研發所以我們會編科技預算那這個研發的成果要對..."},{"start":6318.421,"end":6347.484,"text":"你講了很多句話了那我們回來看你們的就是國科會的組織法第一條就有講職長行政院為辦理國家科學發展與技術研究及應用之規劃協調審議資源分配等業務特赦國家科學及技術委員會那你有沒有覺得他很有意思他把科學發展放在技術研究及應用前面他為什麼不先放技術及研究及應用再放科學發展呢"},{"start":6348.24,"end":6371.677,"text":"沒有科學發展去探討前瞻的知識就不可能產生知識所以科學發展是長期的基礎有時候不一定有市場性表面上不一定看得出來對人類跟社會的貢獻可是也許他之後就會有貢獻了所以如果沒有長期的基礎研究跟重要的研究調查的話那其實你"},{"start":6374.739,"end":6375.26,"text":"您同意嗎?"},{"start":6389.696,"end":6393.297,"text":"國會三大選的調整風波大家擔心的是更長期的問題不是只是表面上這個風波風波剛剛大家都講過了就是短短的兩三天內"},{"start":6406.363,"end":6421.56,"text":"主委應該知道要叫學者連署非常困難吧尤其是衝上這個國科會國科會是他的研究資源的來源沒有人想得罪國科會主委過去有連署過就是挑戰國科會的各種聲明嗎?"},{"start":6425.222,"end":6446.65,"text":"主委以前是申請哪個處的研究經費?像我是人文處我是工程處好您工程處有好多顆您是申請哪一顆?微電子那如果今天有人說你們那一顆就是不大了解到底在做什麼應該把它放到自然處跟人文處猜一猜你會不會覺得蠻生氣的?"},{"start":6448.31,"end":6462.884,"text":"應該要先經過討論沒錯對一定要經過討論嘛而且這個討論不是只找學門召集人來討論嘛對不對那這個對您的影響是什麼把你的研究領域從工程術調到自然處甚至到人文處對您的影響會是什麼"},{"start":6466.637,"end":6493.872,"text":"你的社群就可能就是審查的人員審查的人就不一樣嘛各位審查的人不一樣對我們學者來講是多大的事完全無法預測譬如說您今天在做的您是做電機的嘛相關那個研究審查人員完全換了甚至你投入10年的研究就拿不到經費了這不是學者甚至跟他的薪水無關喔他的研究經費就受到很大的影響所以知識體大嘛"},{"start":6494.973,"end":6520.783,"text":"我了解他們擔心的事所以看來主委今天到目前為止都跟我同步那我想我綜合這麼多的陳情人的資訊那當然就是新聞據說大家都有看到了那這裡面我也主動請教了學界我比較尊重的就是說不同的朋友那包含涉及這三個跨領域的跟不涉及的就是我覺得有四大問題第一個就是三個跨領域學們面臨肢解與重組"},{"start":6523.544,"end":6544.181,"text":"有部分真的是叫肢解請他們猜到自然科甚至有一些空間資訊或什麼的我想細節我們就不講第二個資源投入被緊縮就是您剛剛講的預算增加很多人已經挑戰你們是把部會的一些錢放進去那其實不是歸純學術研究了第三個"},{"start":6545.181,"end":6550.125,"text":"眾多中鋼計劃面臨刪減中鋼計劃主委應該很了解中層鋼要計劃他是競爭型的而且要準備個兩三年才能提出那學者們舉證歷歷你們已經在進行第一個把這個航向南海原本是這是海洋研究111年到114年經費現在1115年可能無法延續"},{"start":6574.623,"end":6593.217,"text":"國土空間綱要也被影響那這些所謂中層綱要加起來的經費是4.577億它涉及到下面多少研究助理多少人一旦沒有給他經費這些人就是回家吃自己或者他必須要找新的主題了甚至研究生"},{"start":6594.017,"end":6615.16,"text":"還有LTSER長期社會生態研究這個也是基礎研究這個表面上一下看不到市場性可是對我們的不管是永續跟各方面都有幫助那原本我們聽到的就是有彰化站跟翡翠站這好不容易建立的社會生態研究的點"},{"start":6616.181,"end":6636.096,"text":"那你們主張經費刪減然後本來學者討論了半年要增加發展的東海岸站據說你們已經主張不用討論了因為就認為甚至就是處長說出不知道認為學者為什麼要做這樣的研究"},{"start":6637.15,"end":6650.82,"text":"有沒有這樣事情你們待會再說所以這麼中綱計畫面臨刪減那甚至不只是這三個領域的還有2030年跨世代年輕學者方案這個一年其實用的錢不多1.5億我看去112年度1722個年輕學者申請只有888人拿到"},{"start":6658.626,"end":6673.979,"text":"這個非常重要因為年輕學者可能是因為系主任跟他說有這個經費他不去申請國外拿到博士就回來了結果據說你們覺得年輕學者為什麼要給他特別鼓勵呢他很優秀就很優秀跟年齡無關"},{"start":6675.3,"end":6694.392,"text":"您也知道我們台灣的薪資比起我們東亞很多的國家然後研究經費也不確定那所以這個長城的東西甚至一個已經在台灣的年輕學者他放棄國外的話那因為你們不再補助這個部分知識體大那所以呢這看起來就是說"},{"start":6696.533,"end":6720.95,"text":"第4個大家最質疑的事情不是不能做計劃經費刪減增加應該要有嚴謹的評估有清楚的報告讓大家知道為什麼這中間有一個討論過程所以決策過程被認為既粗暴又不透明是目前的癥結點那我想剛剛都已經講到了這個連署三天之內有650人"},{"start":6722.311,"end":6748.549,"text":"裡面有四位院士兩位校長我也在看到這個事情9月16日我認為我應該要正式跟你們索資因為我是立法院裡面少數申請過你們國會經費看得懂你們在做什麼的我去索資了你們索資的第一個回我說本會議於9月16日新聞稿中澄清並無更動組織或學門之規劃"},{"start":6751.431,"end":6778.323,"text":"可是呢我後來又再次所知你們第二份就變了就說沒有正式會議請問到底有沒有會議是有會議但不正式還是你第一份所講的沒有沒有會議完全沒有會議完全沒有所以我們第一時間好那等一下你說完全沒有會議對不對對正式非正式會議都沒有沒有"},{"start":6780.086,"end":6784.996,"text":"請問主委是否知情有人想要著手規劃這件事情,您是否知情?"},{"start":6786.501,"end":6815.521,"text":"自然處處長是有跟我討論是私底下討論說怎麼樣能夠所以您知情我們討論是說怎麼樣能夠增進我們現在這三個學門他們研究的成效所以就是您知情嘛他的意思就是說要調整嘛您知情他要調整沒有要調整他沒說要調整第一件事就是要進行我不是法官齁所以您知情他認為這三個學門的效率不夠是不是"},{"start":6816.461,"end":6835.861,"text":"不是效率不夠是說我們怎麼樣協助我們這些研究的學者們能夠增進他們的研究成效那為什麼其他的社會學們不需要增進研究成效就是他們需要增進研究成效所有學們都要啊所以所有的都要但是自然處他的業務這是他們的業務所以您有沒有授權自然處處長進行"},{"start":6837.603,"end":6843.945,"text":"我有提醒我們要進行溝通你有提醒要進行溝通所以現在是自然處長沒有接受您的提醒不是沒有接受因為還沒有進行溝通那個連署就出現了所以我們只好還沒有進行溝通所以這樣子聽起來是自然處長"},{"start":6858.393,"end":6871.728,"text":"報告委員,我們處長也是很用心,他是要協助他其實並沒有任何的決策,還沒有對外宣布的時候那就出現這個事,我當然也是覺得非常遺憾"},{"start":6872.188,"end":6872.308,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6887.145,"end":6904.277,"text":"您知不知悉我們自然處長曾經講了這樣的話有不少白紙黑字講有不少PI皆是在其原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下之上述三學門您知悉還是不知悉這個應該不是這樣講吧有簡單白紙黑字事後我可以給你看您知悉還是不知悉"},{"start":6918.086,"end":6933.266,"text":"這只有一種嗎?知悉還是不知悉?我覺得不是這樣講啦。好啦,那您就是覺得他這樣講不對,但是您知悉,是這樣嗎?他不是這樣講,他不是這樣講。那他是怎麼樣講?"},{"start":6935.902,"end":6961.762,"text":"自然處長跟我提的只是怎麼樣去增進那您知不知其他白紙黑字就是寫了這樣的東西這是一個反彈的根源啊你今天如果說我是做性別研究跨領域性別研究的學者都是在原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下肢性別研究的性別研究學一定是跳腳你把別人講成二流學者欸這些人是因為在別的地方申請不到經費過來嗎"},{"start":6964.366,"end":6992.226,"text":"主委,您剛剛一直都不願意說你有知悉那請您去查一下如果講這樣的話至少我不知道是誰講的如果是自然署長講他是不是應該跟大家道歉如果是大家有認為有這種情形那我就代表國科會跟大家道歉國科會不會有這樣的立場那如果有一些口誤我跟大家道歉"},{"start":6993.026,"end":7011.738,"text":"謝謝主委,我想您今天這樣算蠻有誠意的如果真的有講過這樣的話主委願意跟大家道歉就是不應該任意貶抑任何的學門是在別的領域拿不到經費然後轉到這邊來申請那我想今天就是要跟主委講的事情"},{"start":7012.759,"end":7039.66,"text":"就是有這麼多的東西所以我今天的副標題是政策溝通主標是永續科研我想我剛剛講到的其實你們是不是一個月內可以有一個決策過程的檢討報告包含所有的中長期計畫如果您不是不能夠調整不是不能刪減不是不能增加應該要有一個清楚的標準跟說明好不好"},{"start":7040,"end":7040.64,"text":"所以決策過程給我檢討報告第二個一個月內喔"},{"start":7066.534,"end":7094.381,"text":"提出未來相關學門調整應有的SOP那當然我們知道有些事情無法百分之百的民主但是今天一個大學要裁測一個系所緣何病教育部都有規定SOP要幾場溝通會幾場座談會就是應該要有一個而且學術社群那種程度是一個更平等他是互審的制度對不對學門召集人也都是有聲望的"},{"start":7094.861,"end":7116.638,"text":"就說推選出來的所以是不是能夠針對學門調整應有的尊重學界溝通的SOP的程序是不是可以給我讓大家相信不會再有這樣事那第三個你們也應該要保障政策跟預算的連貫性我想大家的研究都是據說"},{"start":7118.519,"end":7132.77,"text":"三年應該是兩三年是最短嘛對不對四五年到十年的有很多都是這樣長程的規劃那如果你的政策與預算沒有連貫性我想跟學界的互信基礎就已經失去了"},{"start":7136.331,"end":7151.619,"text":"第2個未來相關學門的調整的民主程序是什麼?建議你們用問卷詢問那650位聯署的學者因為學者都是有email的你們都可以找得到讓他感受到國科會的誠意好不好?"},{"start":7152.659,"end":7168.952,"text":"他們有反彈一定有一套理想的方式絕對不是說學科學門絕對不能調整好不好那怎麼樣是好的做法那您展現誠意那跟著650位連署至少用一個數位問卷很容易執行主委可以答應嗎"},{"start":7171.033,"end":7173.494,"text":"謝謝吳主委,請主委回座接下來請召委范雲接續主持會議"},{"start":7204.993,"end":7208.995,"text":"謝謝吳佩儀委員帶主席 那現在我們請羅廷偉委員質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩有請吳主委好 有請主委"},{"start":7227.795,"end":7256.109,"text":"羅委員好好 主委謝謝今天大家對這個議題其實都滿關注的吼那也引起不少的風波我想主委國科會主要的任務不外乎第一推動全國整體的科技發展第二 資源學術研究第三 發展科學園區剛好這些任務教育部跟經濟部都有在做我想請問一下國科會你們與教育部經濟部這兩個部會在研究教學產業發展的一個需求這三個面向是怎麼分工"},{"start":7256.849,"end":7283.638,"text":"有分工可以分享一下嗎教育部支持我們全國各學校從大學到小學都有關聯那教學的部分是教育部主政但是研究特別是在大學做前瞻的基礎研究應用研究那是國科會在支持這是教學跟研究那跟經濟部的分工經濟部是注重在產業發展"},{"start":7284.958,"end":7299.955,"text":"所以我們在管理科學園區的時候科學園區成功的一個很重要關鍵就是科學園區跟大學之間的研究是非常緊密結合因為要發展是科技產業科技產業如果沒有前端的科研是不可能有產業的發展"},{"start":7301.136,"end":7325.447,"text":"所以我們跟經濟部就互相協助在發展科學園區的過程當中也把大學的研發能量也結合園區的事業讓園區的科技產業的發展更為蓬勃大概就是這樣的這個分工好 那我想問一下請問國科會學術研究的一個產出以結案為來計算一年大概有幾案案件數那個我們眾會數"},{"start":7331.42,"end":7344.433,"text":"請我們中衛處來回答跟委員報告如果是在年度執行中的計畫大概15000件好那這些產出確實帶動產業發展的大概有幾案有沒有計算過"},{"start":7346.209,"end":7370.002,"text":"這一部分我們不會去計算我們大概有一些叫做產學合作的案子但是也不見得是只有產學合作的案子才會對產業有幫助我們有一些科技研發的成果其實是廠商直接會找學校找教授去做這個技術移轉所以也有一些技術移轉的這個方式那也有一些教授在教學之餘也會去協助產業擔任顧問"},{"start":7371.803,"end":7379.065,"text":"你覺得學術的產出跟所謂的產業的發展有沒有落差?落差難免是有因為我們支持學術研究不見得全部都是應用型直接連結到產業有些是有社會貢獻有些是純粹科學的研究它是未來可能比較長期才會被社會所使用"},{"start":7401.593,"end":7415.873,"text":"所以發展成科技發展成技術所以我們很難去界定說一個學術研究的成果是不是對社會有利己的貢獻對產業有利己貢獻有時候是比較難衡量有些像AI的研究"},{"start":7416.954,"end":7438.807,"text":"過去很長的一段時間是社會覺得沒有直接的感受到AI研究的貢獻而是在十幾年前才發現說因為雲端科技因為台灣的半導體發展能夠訓練非常大的這種人工智慧的模型才發現說它的貢獻會非常的大所以有時候是經過長時間的研究累積的成果才會有貢獻的"},{"start":7439.727,"end":7464.727,"text":"那我想剛剛有聽到這個主委有一些表態那我想態度都良善但是我還是有一些問題想跟大家請問一起來探討那我想目前國科會日前國科會所你調整的永續三學門照學界說不重視永續發展而且也發出了相關的聲明第一學術自由與公開討論是永續發展科技核心的一個價值我想這個部分的聲明您大概都有看過"},{"start":7465.347,"end":7494.05,"text":"他們也堅決的反對任何由上而下未經公開溝通的獨斷做法第二國科會應正視新政府對永續發展的近鄰挑戰政策任何對永續相關計畫的刪減與調整應公開透明的機制廣泛的跨領域做學界的一個溝通我想並建立一個共識我想這個部分剛剛您有所回應那我們還是希望學界目前所"},{"start":7495.31,"end":7516.299,"text":"發聲的這些聲明第一時間我們有看到幾個回應我想跟你探討一下第一個9月14回應國科會回應是支持跨域性質的學門研究永續防災與空間資訊等跨領域的學門投入資源有逐年增長剛剛你有說4.8億變成5.2億對吧"},{"start":7519.841,"end":7521.586,"text":"將與學界共同探討永續防災及空間資訊的相關發展"},{"start":7527.677,"end":7540.26,"text":"那這樣徵詢學界的意見適度的調整當時是被批壓實問虛答後來9月16國科會又再一次的回應並無更動組織跟學門的規劃請該三學門的一個學者放心將儘速召開說明會跟學界還有我們國科會支持"},{"start":7551.587,"end":7552.889,"text":"請問主委你覺得國科會做法錯了嗎?"},{"start":7566.824,"end":7579.923,"text":"可能是引起誤解啦 我覺得我們學界關心永續學門的發展 這個我完全是認同的 我們應該要持續來凝聚學界的力量 持續發展"},{"start":7582.014,"end":7588.077,"text":"解決方案針對這些永續的議題我們在會內其實針對這樣的聯署我們也立即反映我們不會改變現在這個學問的狀況自然處將來也會持續來協助"},{"start":7598.542,"end":7614.058,"text":"這三個學問的發展所以不會我們既然經費已經逐年的增加當然是絕對不會放棄這三個學問現在已經累積起來的研究的能量是希望協助他們更為健康的發展那對社會的貢獻會更為明顯"},{"start":7615.96,"end":7635.796,"text":"我認為國投會在溝通不足的情況下嘗試拆解永續防災還有空間資訊等學問在被嚴正抗議後試圖以增加經費來安撫主委整篇書面報告提到了12個跨領域12個跨領域後沒有列舉大概哪幾個領域"},{"start":7636.837,"end":7660.3,"text":"至少應該針對各學門跨領域整合列舉預計大概有哪幾個領域才對吧這就好像你去的餐廳然後呢沒有menu沒有得選擇然後任由老闆給你吃什麼就吃什麼我想跨領域的研究重要性不言而喻國科會是否有計劃建立一套溝通的機制例如召開定期的召開會議以確保跟學界溝通交流"},{"start":7661.962,"end":7689.599,"text":"剛剛我們召委范委員已經提醒我們也非常關心我們會有一個比較正式的做法標準的做法不是只有針對這三個學問將來我們所有的處未來針對各個學問都開始會有這樣子的一個固定會議我們一定要公開就是討論公開公平透明的這些機制我們一定會把它建立起來希望我們整個學界都放心這樣"},{"start":7690.399,"end":7718.317,"text":"我想國科會有沒有清楚的路徑圖知道需要投入的前沿研究是什麼近鄰的永續是不分藍綠的共同目標那麼國科會在這個部分扮演的角色是什麼方向是什麼那個路徑圖有沒有出來大家只能瞎子摸象嗎能不能具體的回應國科會在這些領域中扮演的角色好我請我們林副主委他負責我們的近鄰辦公室"},{"start":7720.361,"end":7730.128,"text":"委員好,基本上來講我們現在有一個近年科技方案的推動小組專門在規劃在行政院的層級各部會還有產業應該怎麼去推動近年科技另一方面我們現在因為總統有召開8月8日有召開氣候變遷的相關的會議所以我們現在在推動一個氣候變遷調試科研我們也有一個推動小組現在在進行當中那應該是明年會成案所以我們會同時從近年科技還有這個調試"},{"start":7750.021,"end":7776.292,"text":"氣候變性調適科研這兩個方向來推動這是國科會應該做的事情以上報告我想這些技術會如何與產業界需求相銜接確保研究能夠迅速轉為實際應用這是我們非常關切的部分針對這個特定的產業如再生能源經濟循環的相關領域我們設立專門的研究支持機制如果有具體有沒有有沒有這樣子的一個具體實際作為"},{"start":7778.08,"end":7778.14,"text":"好!好!"},{"start":7804.683,"end":7822.297,"text":"學界的研究因為教育部的規定必須盡量去發表論文刊登相關的期刊但產業界的研發則是希望短期性的希望能夠力建效果就是上市場賺錢我想滋養企業才能廣大人才此時政府要做什麼"},{"start":7822.637,"end":7840.699,"text":"國科會如何在兩者之間找到平衡注進學界產業界的合作這就回到我一開始在問主委你們怎麼去分工嗎那如果在這個部分上如果做成兩邊的橋樑我想國科會是很需要在這個部分下以重力主委您覺得呢"},{"start":7840.979,"end":7862.343,"text":"我同意委員的看法我想我們跟大家分享有一個鐵證證的案例講一個很成功的案例跟大家分享中研院在新冠肺炎的流行之時成功開發出新冠快篩的抗體但限於設備無法進行量產化中研院釋出了抗體跟產業界合作讓這個產品與業界能夠進行永續不管是開發、量產"},{"start":7868.064,"end":7881.99,"text":"用於支持國家重大的防疫工作我想眾議院在這樣研究發表的學術論文之外一達成善盡社會關鍵的責任任務同時根據科技的基本法規範架構將抗體移轉所獲得的經費"},{"start":7885.211,"end":7900.846,"text":"按比例分配給發明人研究團隊並投入更多的科學研究此為產學研三贏的一個案例但另外一個成功案例我們也是看到都是在新冠疫情由衛生福利部中醫研究"},{"start":7901.707,"end":7903.568,"text":"所研發出的青關一號,主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7903.568,"end":7904.148,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7904.148,"end":7904.769,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7904.769,"end":7906.049,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7906.049,"end":7907.01,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7907.01,"end":7907.69,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7907.69,"end":7908.19,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7908.19,"end":7908.93,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7920.939,"end":7944.144,"text":"我們非常鼓勵也就是說我們的科技研發包含科學的研究以及技術的發展這兩個我們是並重的科學的研究將來可能會產生長期對人類社會的貢獻那技術的發展是對我們產業立即的這個需求提供我們很重要的後盾讓我們的產業發展得很好這個我們都會鼓勵"},{"start":7944.744,"end":7964.689,"text":"好 所以我今天我們舉出案例然後探討我們真的很希望諸委這個態度一定要做好對學界的溝通對產業界的溝通一定要重視我想後續做出一些補償亡羊補牢的動作你也剛剛有答應我們希望能夠看到具體的實際的而且永續的跟產學界一起好好的來坐下來談一談是同意謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7968.635,"end":7976.44,"text":"吳主委請回謝謝羅廷威委員質詢我們再請葛如君委員質詢等一下吳佩儀委員質詢完我們休息五分鐘謝謝主席有請國科會吳承文主委有請吳主委"},{"start":7992.574,"end":8010.956,"text":"各位人好主委好今天感謝趙偉安排專報的題目永續科研那AI其實是目前熱門的產業持續熱門那也是科學研究現在非常多的教授研究中心在做的題目那先前幾次的質詢我也就AI的發展還有各個面向跟您有進行探討"},{"start":8012.037,"end":8040.943,"text":"我想人類的發展AI一定會在其中扮演角色我們如果沒有辦法做好會影響到我們的存續他如果做得好也會幫助我們的存續所以這當然是一個永續的議題那配合這樣的一個議題呢有兩大重點人才的永續跟人員的永續就會是非常重要的課題首先來看一下看主委談一下人才的永續行政院在9月5號剛剛公佈了這個五大信賴產業為什麼剛好也信賴這個我們改天再聊"},{"start":8041.343,"end":8069.51,"text":"但是人工智慧就是其中一項目標要成為全球AI影響力的中心從行政院的簡報我們也可以看到推動目標的第二項就是要培養AI的人才預計4年內要培養20萬名AI相關的人才請教一下主委培養20萬名AI人才的具體做法是什麼明年就會是第一年那要20萬的多少要培育"},{"start":8071.328,"end":8071.848,"text":"所以人數你們不用算啦?"},{"start":8090.682,"end":8108.069,"text":"我們人數的部分其實是包含科研的部分以及將來在產業產業有所謂的這個AI產業以及這個AI的應用的產業那應用端的所以20萬明年要多少萬有沒有數字有沒有規劃有沒有策略"},{"start":8109.009,"end":8129.529,"text":"這是明年才啟動的這個方案從明年開始算4年現在已經馬上要10月囉那現在不用規劃明年要多少萬人嗎我們不用OKR不用KPI嗎那我們就隨便喊一個20萬那我們要喊200萬20萬是包含到所以AI人才的培育和國歌會到底有沒有關係"},{"start":8131,"end":8151.52,"text":"當然有關係啊就是我講科研人才是國科會主政的所以我們會持續資助全國的大學以及研究機構進行AI相關的科技研發那我們翻開國科會預算書的第一頁國科會的年度施政目標當中包含辦理行政院科技顧問會議行政院"},{"start":8152.521,"end":8168.105,"text":"主辦這個會議由國客會來主導會議的目的本來就是未來10到20年的科技發展要提供建言那想請問一下主委您接任政委以後有沒有去翻閱一下當時的這個行政院科技顧問會議的會議記錄報告委員我還沒有機會去翻閱過去的記錄"},{"start":8174.252,"end":8195.362,"text":"現在已經您上任已經一段時間了我沒關係我幫你看其實相關的會議結論就有提到培育下個世代半導體及AI人才就是你們的結論策略方向第一結果20萬到底要培育多少名目前是沒有概念現在已經馬上要進入10月了"},{"start":8195.982,"end":8208.272,"text":"下世代半導體及AI人才如果是國會主政的部分就是科研人才那科研人才如果我們以碩士以上的那20萬裡面到底要佔多少"},{"start":8209.535,"end":8232.061,"text":"科研的人力不需要到非常的多那非科研的人力呢?非科研的人力誰負責?我們行政院各部會各部會都要負責包含經濟部、數位發展部甚至衛福部、勞動部、農業部等等我們各行各業都需要有AI應用的人力"},{"start":8232.441,"end":8232.901,"text":"教育部應該在裡面的"},{"start":8256.856,"end":8272.788,"text":"這個我想要跟主委同步一下培育人才的責任是人人有責沒錯啦您剛剛提的也對那國歌會做科研的人才但是科研的人才到底要如何培育更多的AI人才這個應該是要代代相傳一棒接一棒棒棒都是強棒嘛"},{"start":8274.229,"end":8290.7,"text":"我告訴主委您剛剛提到的很多的會議教育部都不是與會單位所以如果您有關心AI人才的議題包含台灣競爭力的永續國科會如果認為AI人才的培育教育部也有責任那國科會是不是有轉資會議的結論給教育部的責任呢"},{"start":8292.941,"end":8313.395,"text":"在後續的工作會議裡面是不是有邀請教育部來參與這些請主委會後能不能與相關業務單位來進行檢討到底我們4年20萬的AI人才要如何而來到底明年到底會有多少名不然的話我們這個數字就亂喊嘛我喊20萬也可以我喊2萬也可以我喊200萬也可以啊是吧"},{"start":8314.015,"end":8328.921,"text":"我們這個人才培育逐年目標我們會把它規劃出來那我們的確跟教育部有持續定期的溝通我們的陳秉林副主委跟教育部的葉秉成次長其實是有固定溝通的平台"},{"start":8329.121,"end":8330.782,"text":"臺灣人才赤字在國內是非常令人擔憂美國在來協會剛發布人才循環大聯盟的白皮書其中依舊寫著"},{"start":8349.79,"end":8365.72,"text":"人才是台灣轉型創新經濟體的基礎培育人才是我們發展的基石國家競爭力的根本他寫得很委婉但是我要再次提醒2015年我們就已經被評定2021年的人才供需落差可能會到負1.5%"},{"start":8368.042,"end":8389.437,"text":"29月27日及28日我們才剛辦理了台灣的AI的一個非常重要的年會其中才不斷的被討論我們AI人才的缺口年增7%注意這是缺口的成長率喔不是人才的成長率喔這些數字您如果看到了AI人才培育難道不會是國會重要的責任嗎我們再來給你看一下這個7%我們剛剛提過根據審計部最新的決算報告"},{"start":8398.883,"end":8419.253,"text":"從110年到112年每年編列近20億元去執行機構研覽優秀的人才及研究學者其中178位博士級的研究人員連續接受補助10次到20次但是隨著計畫的結束我們發現這些人並沒有投入產業或投入學界"},{"start":8419.693,"end":8445.358,"text":"比例非常的低甚至沒有在研究機構裡頭轉正變成他們自己自嘲說是短期打公仔我說十次二次的補助盒已經變長期打公仔你的人才永續會永續到這裡來我們認為國歌會不僅沒有扮演好人才搖籃角色會不會變成人才黑洞啊博士進來就出不去了我想請教一下主委國歌會有沒有一些理解有沒有改進的措施如何活絡"},{"start":8446.859,"end":8472.043,"text":"國會的確也看到這樣的問題很謝謝委員再次提醒我們接下來夏年度的計畫已經有做一些調整調整就是說要擴散我們AI的應用這些博士生他已經拿了10次、20次、22次的補助了他們既沒有進學員機構也沒有進到中研院也沒有進到其他地方"},{"start":8474.504,"end":8495.757,"text":"所以我們要發展產業 發展產業讓大家有更多機會能夠做自主的創新系統的開發但您剛剛說要做的是科研人才啊 您是要做產業還是要做科研人才委員希望國科會也協助產業發展嘛 所以我們培養的人才希望我們編科技算我關注這些博士級的人才到底要去哪裡"},{"start":8497.037,"end":8522.95,"text":"現在學界的這個教師的緣額本來就不會再成長我們的人口結構在變化所以一定要往產業發展美國也是這個樣子我跟主委交流一下第一教育現場說目前聘不到教師中研院也有跟我們交流回復說中研院還有人員的編列名額沒有聘滿跟您說的是不一致的但是人才有些適合產業發展有些適合在學界發展"},{"start":8525.731,"end":8543.448,"text":"那他們也沒去學界也沒去產業我們剛剛提的是這些人啊那他們去哪裡繼續停在那裡嗎我剛剛講就是產業發展需要的人才會比較多所以我們要從產業發展所以我們產業發展的不好現在在應用面還不過所以科研人才沒有出入是產業發展的不好"},{"start":8544.096,"end":8544.817,"text":"AI產業是由國科會主導"},{"start":8559.585,"end":8582.095,"text":"AI基本法也是您先提出預告版本所以我希望可不可以由國科會邀請教育部中研院等相關單位進行研議提出具體的有策略的解決方案而不是只是開會跟會議結論而已能不能請國科會6個月內將研議結果與書面回覆給本席6個月真的有點太長了AI已經不知道發展到哪裡去了可不可以"},{"start":8582.495,"end":8609.386,"text":"不要6個月啦我們年底就有因為我們跟這幾個部會都已經討論方案早一點讓我們知道啦不然我們都不知道這20萬是怎麼含的接下來還是要跟主委談一下能源永續因為沒有能源怎麼會有AI想請教一下核能是不是零碳是不是淨零的計畫當中的一個做法這個不是我能判斷的不是你能判斷的你需不需要知道我跟委員報告"},{"start":8610.376,"end":8623.655,"text":"我們支持科研科研的這個核能不是競技池好不好我直接幫你講出來COVID-192822國都說核能在2050年以前要增加兩到三倍"},{"start":8624.571,"end":8643.043,"text":"我本來就提過只要是能夠確保安全那避免民眾的疑慮我任何的能源的研究我們都會支持好很好請教主委國務院是不是認為SMR是一個值得研究的議題小型模組化和反應器"},{"start":8643.743,"end":8663.731,"text":"我們的學研的這個計畫學界提出任何能源的這個研究方向我們都會尊重值得值得不值得對值得嘛齁您如果認為SMR值得研究但你知道113年度國科會投入多少的研究經費來補助做SMR的科研嗎110萬新台幣啦"},{"start":8669.751,"end":8693.853,"text":"我是客氣一點啦,連信義區一間廁所都買不起啊主委您知道世界各國投入多少預算在做研究嗎?我們並沒有防堵任何的這種計畫只要學界願意提出...那我們現在鼓勵多元能源科技的研究,我們是鼓勵的那你鼓不鼓勵SMR的研究?"},{"start":8694.827,"end":8722.131,"text":"主要審查我們都是學界公開審查這個審查如果大家覺得這個研究是有機會能夠對人類社會有貢獻我們當然會支持所以我幫您回顧一下在2022年您當時是工研院的首席技術專家您的建議SMR應該要納入思考範疇才能夠兼顧企業競爭力跟環保政策換了位置應該沒有換了腦袋您的看法是不是還是相同"},{"start":8725.178,"end":8749.928,"text":"我是鼓勵啊 我鼓勵任何的能源的研究啊 所以是不是鼓勵ESMR是不是想法是一致的主要提出具體的好的這個計畫通過審查我們都一定會同意的我想世界為了成立這個淨零碳排的目標其實全世界的人都在推動相關的"},{"start":8751.289,"end":8754.993,"text":"他甚至也說了要降低科技的成本AI跟能源而最佳的解決方式就是SMR跟您的看法相同"},{"start":8788.626,"end":8800.254,"text":"假股文還要做更多的三座小型核電廠的建造他都要拿到了目前新建中的全世界各國也都還有到底我們要不要發展SMA"},{"start":8801.614,"end":8814.828,"text":"主委是不是後續再跟葛委員跟他報告好嗎?我希望國會早日克服心魔能夠提高我們對於能源充足AI研發人才的這個議題好不好?謝謝主委請回謝謝葛如君委員的質詢再我們請吳佩奕委員質詢"},{"start":8828.226,"end":8831.028,"text":"謝謝主席我請吳主委請吳主委吳委員好主委好所以剛剛前面的委員問你說沒有能源就沒有AI其實沒有預算也更不可能有AI所以我替你覺得很辛苦這個科學理性還要有務實現在野黨的立委"},{"start":8853.966,"end":8872.601,"text":"又要擋預算剛剛又要你們做一堆工作沒有預算要怎麼做所以你們在備詢的時候你們要理性務實的把你們遇到的困難要來向委員以及市民報告因為我們站在這個你站在備詢台我站在質詢台你不只對立委負責"},{"start":8873.342,"end":8895.392,"text":"你是對全國的人民負責都要清楚的去把它說明那接下來在進入今天專題報告這個討論之前因為我看到一個新聞相當擔憂想跟主委先請教有媒體報導說中國的半導體有可能技術已經追趕到不只落後台灣三年"},{"start":8896.749,"end":8899.59,"text":"中國在近年之內有可能半導體的技術追趕上台灣嗎?我認為十年以上了,落差"},{"start":8925.106,"end":8929.947,"text":"目前的落差至少10年以上中國半導體晶片現在是幾奈米?"},{"start":8931.63,"end":8961.63,"text":"臺灣臺積電"},{"start":8963.05,"end":8988.075,"text":"在這個學界引起很大的討論那因為前面委員剛也討論很多我直接進結論請教一下我們現在有關於永續發展科學防災科技、空間資訊科技等三個學門有沒有要進行整併或者是調整?沒有那這三個學門我們要繼續的來支持在預算方面有沒有進行調整?"},{"start":8988.891,"end":9010.485,"text":"有 我們其實早就編好了明年的預算 今年的預算3個學門4.8億 我們明年已經編到5.2億了 所以我們是持續在支持所以我們預算會持續來增加對 已經編列了 希望不要被刪減好 所以學門不會調整 預算要增加 這個也是我希望看到的方向我們是很正面的但是啊 但是啊"},{"start":9011.826,"end":9033.221,"text":"這個不能只看結果,過程當中我相信剛剛前面很多委員都提醒了在整個學界社群當中的參與討論各方的諮詢公開的透明這件事情為什麼這麼重要因為我們這幾個學門正好就叫做跨領域的研究"},{"start":9034.783,"end":9055.978,"text":"2017年聯合國教科文組織也就提出了我們跨領域的研究這是對我們未來全球性挑戰的一個解方2020年的OECD的報告同樣告訴我們說跨領域研究的重要性而當中因為它是跨領域所以你一定會有不同的單位一定會有更多的參與者"},{"start":9057.799,"end":9078.019,"text":"所以決策的透明以及擴大參與兩點至關重要請你們未來不管要有怎麼樣的更動一定要來遵守這樣子的程序同意可不可以是好接下來要跟主委討論大家都很關心從上個會期我們都在關切就是AI"},{"start":9079.22,"end":9094.15,"text":"因為AI是向全世界最關注的科技議題 蕭美琴副總統在AI年會上說AI這個是革命 而革命當中是成是敗 取決於我們能否跟上時代"},{"start":9095.431,"end":9113.041,"text":"我們現在看到有幾個評估的資料說臺灣的AI產業目前在亞洲是落後新加坡、落後南韓、落後日本甚至落後中國目前有一項因為好幾份報告有一份我們名次是第19名諸葳你怎麼看待這個名次"},{"start":9116.667,"end":9131.758,"text":"我們要虛心檢討因為過去台灣其實是重點我們一直在發展我們的硬體產業來供給全世界應用AI的這個算力那我們其實是過去比較忽略掉我們國內自己要發展自己的應用"},{"start":9133.199,"end":9160.141,"text":"所以我們現在已經積極在編列未來幾年的預算增加我們的算力增加算力以後利用這些算力來除了做科研的研究之外科技研究之外那也準備把這個研究成果要擴散到應用面能夠開發自己的主權AI那應用系統雲端的這個服務讓我們的人民可以受惠"},{"start":9161.042,"end":9163.003,"text":"我相信未來幾年我們排名會逐步的上升,會進到全世界的前段班。"},{"start":9180.107,"end":9187.094,"text":"我相信因為半導體已經是我們的優勢了所以有能夠應用到AI產業我們其實是有相當的競爭力跟未來的潛力發展的我在看我們幾個數字一個是我們的準備度我們的排名當然目前是在第19名可是跟中國來比較111年度我們甚至曾經一度領先中國"},{"start":9204.651,"end":9222.325,"text":"所以我想它是動態性的發展所以你剛剛講的我們現在的準備跟規劃其實就要朝向中長期的就要開始來投入了嘛 對不對那以算力來說我比較關切的是我們超級電腦的這個算力也有它也有一個排名嘛那"},{"start":9223.286,"end":9246.318,"text":"回答在去年來建制的這個超級電腦目前的排名是全球全球是第38名但是我們國科會自己的台灣三二號台灣三三號都目前都是在百名以外我看你們這個台灣三二號是2018年建制的就時間也算是久因為這個就是在跟時間賽跑對已經五年了所以我們要加強我們打算怎麼樣來加強"},{"start":9252.341,"end":9274.261,"text":"我們現在已經在建新的這個資料中心了我相信明年開始運作以後我們排名就會往前了那我們未來幾年預算會逐年再編列再增加明年是重點我們明年編了40幾億是希望把這個資料中心超級電腦的這個設備一下可以提升提升很多也開始啟動我們的應用"},{"start":9275.782,"end":9276.602,"text":"我相信大家可以拭目以待"},{"start":9298.147,"end":9325.936,"text":"所以明年的預算如果通過的話對我們的算力的提升會是一個關鍵的支持你們要去說明清楚另外主委你多次提到這個主權AI能不能說明什麼叫主權AI主權AI第一點就是說我們的訓練資料要用本土的訓練資料因為應用在本土所以國內的應用我們自己的資料我們要建我們自己的資料中心我們目前的有沒有自己的"},{"start":9326.716,"end":9346.371,"text":"我們有部分的公司自己有在做但是我們的政府還有這個一般的民眾的使用目前還是主要仰賴國外的這些系統所以大概我們很多的資料都散佈到全世界去了那將來比較關鍵性的資料我們希望能夠留在國內"},{"start":9347.532,"end":9369.24,"text":"所以要建自己的資料中心是很重要的再來就是發展自主的應用系統自主應用系統是可以配合我們自己的資料訓練出比較有能源使用效率的比較好的運算的模型能夠讓台灣的民眾受惠於我們自己的主權AI的建制能夠提供更多的增進民眾福祉的這些應用"},{"start":9370.54,"end":9373.303,"text":"所以我們的台德也算是其中之一嗎?"},{"start":9373.303,"end":9388.922,"text":"台德只是一個先期的 只是其中之一的 其中之一 但是還包括很多其他的企劃 對不對 我們現在學界還有其他的模型也在考慮上講到主旋AI我也關切 因為我看到傳出一個消息說去年底的時候OpenAI開始跟中東的投資者有在談"},{"start":9390.123,"end":9403.896,"text":"就是說討論可能未來OpenAI有可能會把資料中心建置在中東為什麼大家會這麼擔心因為它有地緣政治的關聯嘛包括中東、俄羅斯、中國這些極權國家我們擔心說會產生資安的漏洞跟後門"},{"start":9410.061,"end":9420.051,"text":"所以我們台灣要建置自己的主權AI世界各國也都在努力要建置自己的主權AI這一點相關的重要所以我一再的說"},{"start":9421.786,"end":9421.806,"text":"是﹗"},{"start":9449.105,"end":9454.889,"text":"新增預算根據預算法規．立法院沒有通過可不可以動之?"},{"start":9454.889,"end":9474.382,"text":"不可以欸!所以你們要去把它說明清楚 各位大家人生在世啊 有很多非常珍貴的事情跟時間要做既然花時間在這裡質詢備詢了 不要打假球 不要演戲既然大家都認為AI要發展 我們要進步"},{"start":9475.743,"end":9486.69,"text":"我們這些除了剛講的這個新增預算你還包括什麼我幫你看了你們院的新增預算總共有14.6億有氣候變遷研究的有空間有序規劃的有疾病導向的生醫資料研究還有我們的綠門設施我們的實驗高級中學學校建設計畫科學援軍的電價補差還有我們實驗中學等等這些電價的優惠"},{"start":9501.459,"end":9512.296,"text":"這些都叫做新增預算我過去是當市議員現在當立法委員大家都有預算法的概念新增預算立法院沒有通過你們通通一毛錢不准用如果有預算怎麼推動計畫"},{"start":9516.098,"end":9536.056,"text":"所以剛剛大家在這邊討論這麼多AI要發展主權AI每一個國家都在關心但是我們如果要馬而跑又不給馬而吃草不給預算的話請問這個計算要怎麼進行你的計畫要怎麼進行你沒有辦法動得主委所以你也必須要負責任的向市民報告講了這麼多該做的事情"},{"start":9539.759,"end":9552.212,"text":"可是預算沒有通過這些項目你剛剛說我們的AI你說幾年之內你甚至是不是說我們要超過韓國幾年之內要超越韓國我們的目標三年之內要超越韓國我們台灣喊出來了嘛但是你的預算在哪裡你沒有錢你的計畫怎麼做"},{"start":9561.843,"end":9582.032,"text":"主委這非常重要所以我要拜託你在立法院被尋的時候你們只要負責任的把這些計畫的重要性對我們國家來說我們的國民為什麼需要他請清楚的告訴國民政治的事情我們立委會來負責但是你們要清楚的向國民說明因為這是你們的專業好不好是謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":9589.022,"end":9592.504,"text":"謝謝吳培委員吳諸位請回我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":9887.633,"end":9892.755,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國科會主委有請吳主委"},{"start":9920.016,"end":9944.514,"text":"總統府成立了國家氣候變遷對策委員會委員會討論設定的七大主軸裡面永續就包含了三項永續綠生活、綠色永續金融以及國土永續調適任性總統也在委員會上面去強調永續才是朝野共同的目標主委您也是國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員相信您一定了解永續的重要性"},{"start":9945.414,"end":9968.427,"text":"行政院在112年2月21日合訂的一個科學技術白皮書裡面也有提到以前瞻創新民主包容任性永續作為台灣邁向2035科技發展遠景透過科技力量來驅動國家整體的一個轉型所以發現就是永續其實在台灣是非常非常重要不管是在科技上面或是氣候變遷上面"},{"start":9969.895,"end":9989.832,"text":"但是就像剛剛前面有很多的委員都提到就是說很多的學者有發起這個永續科研的連署書提及國科會在自然科學及永續研究發展處有意要去調整那剛剛國科會主委您也做了非常多的說明所以我想要了解就是說因為原本在9月16日有去澄清說沒有這個更動的這個規劃"},{"start":9991.94,"end":10011.414,"text":"好,那這個也預計在一個月內會來召開學門會議所以我想要了解現在我們已經有一些初步的溝通了嗎?有了解一些學者的想法,有些掌握了嗎?可不可以做個說明?好,請處長,我先請處長好,委員會委員好我們在一個月內溝通我們預計在10月1日、10月2日、10月9日分別跟這三個學門來進行溝通謝謝"},{"start":10021.26,"end":10047.246,"text":"好 那我希望就是說如果我們溝通之後是希望可以積極的去傾聽我們這個召集人的一些想法來尊重畢竟永續是非常重要的一個課題那其實我也想想就是說國科會在回應學界的訴求其實有一直強調永續科研和今年會逐年增加這兩項作為但是因為學界代表還是會認為這樣的說法過於的簡單化和表面化無法有效的緩解他們的疑慮"},{"start":10048.266,"end":10054.574,"text":"所以雖然經費的增加非常重要但是僅靠補助並沒有辦法解決學術發展的一些核心問題"},{"start":10056.502,"end":10075.009,"text":"那我們就繼續講要補助這件事情根據自由時報的報導國科會回應瞭解社會的發展問題需要不同專業領域的對話來形成解決方案所以會長期的來支持支持永續防災與空間資訊等跨領域相關學門的研究那2023年這三個領域跨領域的學門經費是4.8億明年我們有規劃了5.2億也就是剛剛"},{"start":10084.272,"end":10099.724,"text":"主委一直強調的我們投入的資源是有逐年成長的但是我也發現了在國科會的補助研究計畫永續發展研究的領域這個研究計畫的通過率卻是逐年下降的從2016年我們還有56.6%到2024年只剩下30.1%"},{"start":10106.912,"end":10128.68,"text":"相較我們整體全部的合計的一個整體合定通過率是46.5%那自然處總體平均也都有達到50.7所以其實我們在這個永續發展研究的合定率是相對來低的那再來我們來看金額部分金額在2024年合定"},{"start":10129.724,"end":10145.88,"text":"的金額也是創下2014年以來最低的金額只有9200萬所以剛剛其實主委也算說整體經費是有提升的但是我們可以看到其實經費在這個領域下面卻是往下掉的核定率也是往下掉的有學者說是因為要"},{"start":10146.96,"end":10164.381,"text":"和並到其他部門才會讓這個核定率很難通過主委要不要澄清說明一下是是謝謝委員提起這個議題其實不是表面上這樣看的結果我們其實第一我們5.2億增加這個預算其實幅度相當高這是我們在"},{"start":10165.362,"end":10194.207,"text":"並列明年預算說早就編了不是因為這次事件我們早就編了那第二個這個計畫的合定數那個下降這個議題是因為我們昨年在編這個預算在合定計畫的時候是鼓勵多年期的研究是對學者是好的我們通過多年期的研究以後我們其實換算實質的那個通過率是到六成不是三成是到六成"},{"start":10194.887,"end":10219.101,"text":"那再來就是說我們新進的學者我們都有保障他們的計畫所以其實是沒有那個委員顧慮的這個問題啦我們在這三個學門裡面並不會比其他的學門核定力還要低並沒有好所以我想確認一下我們主委聽起來就是說我們在永續防災空間資訊如果是連續性的加起來我們的總體經費"},{"start":10220.996,"end":10239.821,"text":"三個都有增加嗎?還是三個加總才是增加?三個都有增加那請問一下就是說因為剛剛主委說你們有一些相關的是一個連續性的計畫那是不是可以把這些相關的申請中的一些計畫跟核定的相關數據在一個月以內提供到我們辦公室讓我們來做參考好不好?"},{"start":10243.641,"end":10263.245,"text":"永續AI是一個非常關鍵的角色2020年委員委託了資誠聯合會計事務所來研究結果顯示在他們進行的農業水、能源和交通運輸等四個領域他們如果使用在AI是可以解決很不錯的環境問題到2030年估計可以為全球經濟貢獻達"},{"start":10268.846,"end":10272.847,"text":"國科會在AI這個世代看起來效果這個AI的導入的效果會非常好我們有沒有一些相關的規劃來幫台灣實踐一個永續的未來你可不可以具體的簡單說明"},{"start":10291.594,"end":10307.705,"text":"謝謝委員我們明年有一個新增的計畫就是智慧科技大南方產業生態系我們就是因為過去我們比較注重在硬體的研發那未來我們在AI的領域在解決我們人類社會面臨的問題還有國內產業發展的問題在賴總統提到均衡台灣"},{"start":10312.968,"end":10339.279,"text":"的這樣的這個國政願景之下我們利用我們高科技產業已經非常好的這個技術來協助我們其他傳統的產業百光百業希望能夠共同發展所以我們在明年的預算裡面有適當的調整我們AI的預算除了增加我們的這個算力的建置之外我們也鼓勵在我們其他部會的這個預算的編列上面結合需求端應用端的這個產業"},{"start":10340.379,"end":10364.366,"text":"跟我們的科技結合在一起希望能夠發展出更多的好聽起來主委已經有一個詳細的規劃了那這些規劃或是有些已經有一些初步的規劃的話是不是也可以送到我們辦公室來做個參考是好沒問題那這個預算的話我們我想就是剛剛吳佩玉委員也有呼籲啦因為這對台灣非常非常的重要所以我也希望在野黨的立委可以盡快的讓這個預算可以送來委員會讓我們可以盡快的審查因為AI的競爭是每秒分秒必爭啦"},{"start":10369.547,"end":10395.487,"text":"再來就是說因為其實我剛剛有提到我們科學技術白皮書這部分我也蠻想跟主委來討論一下就是說我們日本其實鄰近的國家日本他們也有這個科學技術革新白皮書那他們開宗明義就已經提到了人工智慧帶來的科技創新變革那我們也有科學技術白皮書可是我們的科學技術白皮書在112年發定的時候其實通篇只有提到18次AI"},{"start":10397.388,"end":10419.508,"text":"這個比例跟我們現在講AI及國力似乎有點落差那根據科學技術基本法第10條有規定政府應該考量國家發展的方向社會需求情形以及區域均衡發展每4年訂定國家科學技術發展計畫作為擬定科學技術政策與推動科學技術研究發展之依據並經全國科學技術會議討論後由行政院核定"},{"start":10423.852,"end":10440.302,"text":"所以說新的科學技術白皮書是在全國技術會議上的共識基礎上來盤點台灣當前的問題與挑戰那我想問一下從主委的視角來看112年的版本是否跟得上我們科技發展的腳步呢?"},{"start":10441.127,"end":10465.113,"text":"最近因為AI的發展就是非常的快速所以的確我也覺得說我們也到了時間要去開始去構思怎麼樣去修訂這個科技的白皮書那我們今年會年底會全科會年底會召開12月我們年底會全國科技會議我們會詳盡討論這個議題然後接下來我們就會逐步來修訂這個白皮書"},{"start":10470.237,"end":10486.333,"text":"對,但是我想請教主委就是說我們現在的法規是定4年才一次可是我知道鄰近的國家是每年都有去修訂那如果AI的發展是這麼的快速的話我們是不是應該來修法呢?因為4年實在是跟不上現在發展的腳步啊"},{"start":10487.849,"end":10502.188,"text":"委員的建議很好我不知道這是不是牽涉到我們的法規有沒有限制這個報告委員那個全科會跟全國的科學技術法案計畫是定在科技基本法裡面定的"},{"start":10503.468,"end":10517.315,"text":"但是那個科技白皮書上面就有特別提到說我們兩年會滾動修正一次所以以現在台灣目前的制度我們是兩年來滾動的檢討修正一次但是我想我們因為我想臨近的日本是一年我們有沒有考慮"},{"start":10518.456,"end":10518.776,"text":"最後一個問題就是說"},{"start":10539.622,"end":10565.104,"text":"因為剛剛我們大概一直在講AI啊科技的技術啊所以我想就是大家剛剛主委也有提到不能只有focus在技術我們還有其他的領域也需要去顧及所以在最近的一個天下未來城市他推出了一個AI20的專題報告其中這個中研院人社院的研究員蔡宗翰他就提到了當前台灣社會對於AI的認知似乎出現了偏差"},{"start":10566.485,"end":10573.377,"text":"AI熱潮促使學生爭相報考志工系﹚可是卻傳出人文科系的申請報告率是掛0的"},{"start":10580.646,"end":10609.576,"text":"我自己之前也去在這個7月的時候呢有一個中研院舉行的一個院士會議我也去拜訪了孔祥仲院士我想他應該算是AI領域非常頂尖的一個翹楚他其實有跟我談到就是人文社會人才將會清晰的刻畫台灣文化和社會價值觀甚至可以想像台灣5年10年之後的社會樣貌我們應該重視人才培育這樣子人設的人才培育來將台灣打造成為一個AI民主文化中心"},{"start":10610.256,"end":10630.185,"text":"我認為AI的發展需要有一些框架需要一些倫理所以非常需要人文社會科學的那我就想直接請問我們剛剛有講會做一個人文的一個年底會有一個科學技術會議要召開我們有沒有邀請相關的人文產學跟學研的代表來出席呢"},{"start":10633.581,"end":10647.341,"text":"公共委員一定有因為我們現在其實全科會的議題裡面還包括了均衡社會創新經濟智慧科研跟淨零永續在所有的東西討論的時候我們都會請社會學者一起來參與"},{"start":10649.043,"end":10668.399,"text":"我可以再用一點點時間就好了可是我也發現我們在全國科技動態調查的研究人力統計我們在2017年還有10%的研發人力是在人設院可是我們到現在只剩下8.7%人數的確在科技的這個動態研究人力上面的確是下降的所以我認為我們應該鼓勵相關的人"},{"start":10673.422,"end":10690.929,"text":"來投入專業的科技研發活動．所以是不是可以請主委在一個月內提出相關的規劃．讓我們來做一些參考好 謝謝委員謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢吳主委請回再來我們請林一金委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請吳主委有請吳主委"},{"start":10706.558,"end":10721.528,"text":"主委你剛上任的時候曾表示說要拚三個月的有感政績那在上個會期我們國科會初次您來業務報告的時候主委你也曾跟本席來具體描述你將優先推動的這個幾個面向"},{"start":10723.149,"end":10723.189,"text":"主席"},{"start":10754.149,"end":10767.714,"text":"這幾個月來您努力的成績那也要請主委簡單說明一下這幾個面向上特別您宣示的這幾個面向你覺得現在你有做出哪些有感的重大政策"},{"start":10769.107,"end":10786.348,"text":"第一,我們已經3個月之內規劃了一個智慧科技大南方產業生態系新增的方案那也在行政院通過也編列到我們的預算裏面就是明年的預算裏面希望能夠如期的啟動"},{"start":10787.589,"end":10815.538,"text":"那在這個智慧大南方的方案裡面呢我們會結合從嘉義以南一直到屏東那座落在我們的這個沙倫的科學層這個地方國科會本來就已經有投資那未來會再投資一個新的這個所以這個智慧大南方的這個類似這種科學層裡面你具體要實施的就是所謂您剛講的這些"},{"start":10817.398,"end":10840.13,"text":"會鏈接百工百業除了我們已經有的科技產業之外我們會把需求端包含到服務業以及傳統的製造業我們都希望能夠協助他們協助他們可以做數位轉型跟智慧化把我們的主權AI建起來讓他們能夠受益發展我們自主的AI應用的這些系統我們會做這個事"},{"start":10843.032,"end":10869.629,"text":"另外當然今天非常多的委員在關注就是有超過600個學者對於這個來連署呼籲我們國科會要重新重視永續發展跨域的研究那我想剛剛也聽您做一些的這個澄清跟解釋那我想這個科研要永續不只是這個政策層面的宣示跟目標的訂定而已"},{"start":10870.389,"end":10881.173,"text":"國科會怎麼樣注重跟學界的溝通跟建立互信我想這一部分是非常非常的重要所以我們當然您的曾經有表示說要團結來面對話語的難題不過就誠如本席剛剛提到的引領科學發展的這個國科會應該要加強跟各層面的有效溝通跟互信"},{"start":10896.138,"end":10920.925,"text":"你才能確保這個系統性的政策的建置跟這個恰當的這個資源分配所以我在這邊還是要提醒主委應該跟產學研各界要做一些溝通的清除那會不會有資源重新的配置或政策定位能不能被外界理解等等的疑慮那我想這部分你到底現在有沒有把握會做好溝通的工作"},{"start":10921.739,"end":10936.677,"text":"我們會努力做好溝通不是努力,有沒有把握有把握啦,因為我也不是壞人啦所以我想大家會諒解我會盡力去溝通從我們基層研究的學者"},{"start":10938.414,"end":10965.549,"text":"你不是壞人,那我想你是好人,好人不一定會做好的事所以其實你要有把握你有努力可是不一定能成功所以要有把握能掌握你能去補充疑慮的地方也要有把握能做好溝通這部分很重要今天很多委員都在關心這件事情是我知道所以我會努力去做我是有把握的但是"},{"start":10966.65,"end":10982.708,"text":"結果當然取決於最後大家是不是信任我所以我覺得是沒問題啦因為今天委員溝通的事情我覺得原來負面的那個意圖其實都不存在所以我是很有信心大家會認同"},{"start":10983.729,"end":11008.639,"text":"期待您再來的處理狀況另外就是談及這個永續科研我想環境的永續的地位應該被優先看待那同樣是上個會期的質詢中有關於科學園區事業廢棄物再利用率的問題我們從行政院本會期的施政報告中有得知接近今年6月底"},{"start":11009.279,"end":11025.009,"text":"三個園區的試驗廢棄物的再利用率有高達9494%那上次本席在質詢這個題目的時候就是主委你有提到你們會將園區廠商一起協力一樣將這個試驗廢棄物的再利用率達到100%你上次有這樣誇下海口往這個目標邁進那目前不曉得努力了怎麼樣"},{"start":11035.421,"end":11049.111,"text":"我們持續在進行中科管理局已經跟台積電合作把相關的這個台積電的協力廠商集中在園區裡面做一個叫零費製造中心那由台積電來輔導這些廠商"},{"start":11052.533,"end":11068.992,"text":"對那目標就是真的是要做到百分之百當然當然最後最後就是還會產生一些固態的這個廢棄物那是無毒的固態廢棄物我們就可以符合我們的法規標準運出園區目標就是不要把汙染的水啦氣體"},{"start":11070.333,"end":11092.568,"text":"．"},{"start":11092.688,"end":11105.235,"text":"所以他很期待未來能達到百分百那我想為了使這個台灣科技發展立足國際我們剛剛有委員垂詢就是說我們行政院有提出這個精創台灣方案那不只是本島的這個產創環境品質提升我們也看到國科會有選擇要到捷克布拉格來打造台灣第一座的IC設計的這個海外訓練基地"},{"start":11120.703,"end":11137.67,"text":"我想在半導體產業裡面台灣不管在製造、代工我們的成果其實是世界數一數二可是不過在設計上我想我們可能還沒有開拓自己的一片天下所以當然我們要肯定國科會有跨出這一大步"},{"start":11138.97,"end":11167.51,"text":"現在就是說我們針對是否如期可以營運那國科會不久前有表示說針對這個金創方案的執行方向包括國際合作的這個策略進行重新規劃跟調整所以我要請教主委有關這個金創前進基地沒有辦法如期來營運那目前到底要進行什麼樣的這個規劃跟調整那未來是否還會規劃更多這類的前進的基地主委"},{"start":11168.19,"end":11184.45,"text":"報告委員,我們並沒有中止,需要調整,調整的原因是因為最近因為捷克也有選舉的事情,我們當初接任的時候也是新手"},{"start":11185.271,"end":11203.44,"text":"所以雙方的人員要互相認識在溝通經過一段時間然後在捷克因為它是一個執政聯盟有很多的政黨是一起執政的所以他們對於這個我們設立的這種合作的機制也有不同的意見那不同意見並不是說我們要終止而是他們還在討論怎麼樣做事比較好那也跟我們在溝通當中那可能本來是9月要揭牌的等等"},{"start":11211.644,"end":11228.352,"text":"我們可能只是延到也許在年底年底之前一定會一定會完成好完成這個除了捷克這個點以外我們現在的策略我已經很明確定了我們半導體在國際合作策略這個策略就是利用我們半導體製造的優勢我們目前選定的這個區域包含日本包含美國還有在在這個德國因為我們台積電的這個設廠所需要的這個人才是非常非常多"},{"start":11240.537,"end":11267.22,"text":"透過我們跟這些友好國家的學員的合作來培養我們台積電需要的人才這個人才其實在我們台灣不只在我們台灣在德國製造基地以及它的整個供應鏈在日本在美國都有所以透過國科會的這個機制對台積電的這個永續發展其實非常重要我們會加強這一點所以不只捷克我們在德國甚至鄰近的波蘭"},{"start":11267.981,"end":11268.782,"text":"對德國廠的人才未來的發展是非常重要的"},{"start":11283.078,"end":11308.094,"text":"繼續加油我想談到永續科研我們就不得不談到近期這個席捲而來的這個AI浪潮自然期間有登出一篇AI研究研究團隊有發現說早期的AI模型遇到不懂的問題它比較會迴避那升級過後的這個版本它會出現一些湖州答案的情形"},{"start":11309.274,"end":11327.243,"text":"他們分析了三大語言模型像說openAI的GPT或者Meta就是臉書的LLAMA還有就是Bloom那我想發現越來越大的語言模型回答的精準度當然確實有上升"},{"start":11328.664,"end":11346.649,"text":"但這些不精確的答案中,其實錯誤的比例也有上升有專家指出說可能是因為未給AI模型訓練的語料不見得完全正確以及模型本身也不見得可以篩掉這些資訊錯誤的假象對於這篇期刊所針對的模型當然已經是2004年"},{"start":11353.131,"end":11354.012,"text":"我們現在這些疑慮嗎?那我們要如何去定期檢查"},{"start":11378.507,"end":11378.727,"text":"主席"},{"start":11408.607,"end":11408.627,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":11429.015,"end":11430.816,"text":"謝謝林一金委員的質詢吳主委請回座請洪森翰委員質詢質詢時間5分鐘"},{"start":11459.169,"end":11460.354,"text":"請吳誠文主委還有賴處長好請吳主委還有賴處長"},{"start":11466.753,"end":11495.408,"text":"黃委員好主委好今天很多委員都在跟國科會在討論關於我們這個永續科研學門的這個問題因為這一次在爭議中的這幾個學門包括永續房災空間這幾個學門其實跟我過去的工作其實有非常非常大的相關所以裡面有很多的學者也是我們長期在交換意見跟合作的學者"},{"start":11496.428,"end":11520.015,"text":"所以這一次的事件確實就有理解到其實在學界真的造成了一個很大的震盪最後我想先請問主委也好或者賴處長也好你們是不是永續或空間或防災這些方面的專業者專家是不是我不是賴處長是不是我也不是好"},{"start":11521.553,"end":11544.65,"text":"主委跟賴處長你們一定都有你們學友專精特別專長的領域可是就像剛剛你們說的其實在這幾個學門你們不是專家那這時候我就會有一些疑問了因為我剛剛也聽了主委回答剛剛前面幾位委員的回答說這中間是因為處長跟你針對你們有一些想法在做討論但我有一個問題"},{"start":11547.093,"end":11554.912,"text":"那為什麼這個形成想法之前不是先去請教這幾個學門真正的"},{"start":11555.913,"end":11555.933,"text":"為何?"},{"start":11585.956,"end":11609.917,"text":"其實應該沒有做決策啦當然我知道還沒有做決策對可是我聽起來我說這個過程我說決策的這個過程裡面討論的過程為什麼不是先找這方面領域的長期的專案者先討論大家的意見是什麼大家的看法是什麼而是你們先"},{"start":11611.314,"end":11635.56,"text":"自己就先討論,或者是自己就有點先入為主,然後惹出這滿城風雨,為什麼?還沒有討論,真的報告委員還沒有討論,根本沒有會議討論這個事情,而只是那個處長他有個想法是想要協助我們這幾個選民。協助沒有問題,但是現在問題是你們在思考協助的方案,"},{"start":11636.22,"end":11642.885,"text":"主委 我要跟你說我其實不贊成現在什麼溝不溝通啦你們要先做的事情是請教不是溝通溝通是我有想法的我來說服你這是溝通我跟證"},{"start":11660.64,"end":11675.138,"text":"但是根本沒有在這個過程,照理來說是我其實就算我們想要來協助,但我應該來先問這個學門裡面的人該怎麼協助我們有這個想法以後你成方案,那後面才有溝不溝通的事情"},{"start":11676.439,"end":11701.33,"text":"我先想了一套我先入為主先想了一套然後我說我來跟你溝通我來加強溝通這邏輯不對啊不是啊是真的是要請教沒錯啦要請教只是還沒有請教的時候就出現連署了嘛所以我們就先不動然後接下來就是要去請教了所以那個處長已經安排已經排好要第一先跟學門內的學者先請教"},{"start":11702.77,"end":11728.846,"text":"我知道剛剛主委有討論有說接下來有三場我建議這不是溝通會議這是請教會議請教大家該怎麼做這是第一個第二個剛剛林副主委有講到接下來大家會很重視調適的科研我自己非常在意調適的問題因為大家都知道氣候變遷、氣候的變化很有可能其實不太有回頭路我們只能減緩"},{"start":11730.506,"end":11731.998,"text":"但可能還是會遇到的風險"},{"start":11733.479,"end":11761.176,"text":"我們必須靠調適來去處理但我要講為什麼我知道為什麼這些學者非常那麼重視跨領域以調適來說調適就是一個完全需要跨領域的事情今天如果我在南部有一個地方養殖他這個養殖密集區遇到海平面上升所以造成我養殖可能會造可能會有一些衝擊或影響我可能要怎麼做我先要氣候科學來做情境的評估跟模擬我需要有一些空間資訊"},{"start":11762.837,"end":11788.909,"text":"來去做我這個有沒有空間資訊或者是都市計畫規劃的調整我甚至需要社會科學來去討論我的產業有沒有可能做轉型最後才是政策溝通這完全就是一個跨領域的事情所以主委為什麼大家這麼在意跨領域這事情就我自己跟這些學界們的合作裡面過去就都是這些事情所以這是為什麼大家在意的事情我最後要問主委一個事情我就直問了"},{"start":11790.444,"end":11797.489,"text":"主委現在我們600位學者出來連署大家也擔心喔會不會秋後算帳啊不會"},{"start":11798.626,"end":11799.547,"text":"公平公開公正希望主委可以遵守這個原則好不好"},{"start":11826.507,"end":11846.039,"text":"今天這個風波走到現在,我們希望有一個收尾,未來可以做得更好,我們都往未來看,好不好?所有學者都要做得更好是,沒錯,謝謝主委請回,謝謝洪森和委員再來請郭育晴委員質詢不好意思,因為我要維持公平性,所以請"},{"start":11852.818,"end":11856.871,"text":"謝謝主席主委辛苦了有請主委"},{"start":11862.811,"end":11880.581,"text":"主席早安剛剛其實在前面我們幾位立委的同事們在跟您在座詢答的時候其實我們不斷的聽到您有特別提到明年度我們會有新的計畫明年度我們有新編列的預算明年度我們要跟國際更緊密的接軌等等等等但是我們應該都知道在9月24日的禮拜二"},{"start":11891.887,"end":11907.308,"text":"程旭委員會上我也在場我們的所有的年度也就是114年的年度新增的預算那目前在國科會這個部分其實有700多億是全數打包退回"},{"start":11907.848,"end":11921.908,"text":"是連重審討論的基本的這個事件其實是完全就已經是打回原樣了就是是零就這個部分您怎麼看心裡做何感受"},{"start":11923.359,"end":11948.447,"text":"我想不管是我們執政黨的委員還是在野黨委員大概都知道國會編列這些科研的預算其實攸關我們國力的發展攸關我們產業的發展攸關我們社會福祉的增進所以我是很誠心的希望我們在野黨可以支持跟我們執政黨"},{"start":11949.628,"end":11955.384,"text":"這邊可以來溝通讓我們的預算可以通過造福全民"},{"start":11955.925,"end":11982.675,"text":"所以剛剛其實我這個一路齁從早上然後剛剛我有特別換了一下順序我這麼一路聽過來我聽到許多的這個在野黨的立委們齁就說你們要增年預算啊你們要怎麼樣啊我自己聽起來是覺得還蠻諷刺的啦齁就是要馬兒好馬兒能夠跑但是我們不給預算喔齁這個部分其實我們也希望能夠再跟在野黨好好的溝通一下齁好"},{"start":11984.216,"end":11988.72,"text":"今天第一件事情其實是跟時事有關啦其實剛剛很多的委員們也特別有特別提到就是跟學界這邊的一個溝通啦那就是有600位的這個學者這個跨領域的一個學者那麼基於這個永續發展其實他們不希望只是淪為所謂的政策的一個修辭啦"},{"start":12006.638,"end":12034.361,"text":"當然他們也會擔心將來投入的一些公共的資源研究的心血可能就會複製一句就是說我們在國科會這個內部有一些調整他們希望學者學界們的聲音也希望讓我們這邊來聽到其實他們有兩大的一個訴求就是學術的自由就應該要公平公正公開的一個原則之下我們來討論這些事情如果中間有一些"},{"start":12035.262,"end":12035.762,"text":"議員吳誠文列席"},{"start":12050.45,"end":12073.37,"text":"就是反對上對下就像我們委員在質詢部會首長我們也絕對不會上對下我們是平等的吼那這個部分他們這也是他們希望的那再來其實就是他們希望在這個國科會在正式新政府新政策尤其是永續發展跟淨零挑戰的這個政策相關的部分呢能夠"},{"start":12076.393,"end":12092.891,"text":"來聽聽更多其他跨領域專業學者的一個聲音來尋求一個共識而不是說我決定了什麼我就要來做什麼這個部分目前你們的回應有讓這些學者得到滿意的答案嗎或者是你們有取得他們一些共識嗎"},{"start":12094.093,"end":12109.634,"text":"我們已經排定了要去請教這些學者那委員提醒了這幾項我完全都同意我們會按照這個方向來進行目前排定什麼時候會跟他們再坐下來好好的來做溝通處長可以"},{"start":12111.511,"end":12125.369,"text":"基本上我們已經安排10月1日、2日及9日及這三個學門的委員然後還有一些學門的成員就是我們的學者一起來討論謝謝請教"},{"start":12128.733,"end":12152.876,"text":"是是是因為我想說彼此的尊重因為跨領域總是有人如果我在這裡問你修身藝術你肯定也不會嘛對不對所以其實這個跨領域上面的我們要取得更多的共識就必須要更平心靜氣的坐下來聽聽別人的一些聲音也作為自己精進的一個參考好那再來其實剛剛也有一些委員有特別提到就是我們"},{"start":12153.696,"end":12180.223,"text":"台灣AI的一個排名跟超級電腦的算力目前來看雖然感覺好像以全球來說好像A好像還是蠻前面但是就整個亞洲的部分其實我們算是中後段班這個部分尤其是AI的這個落地的應用我們都知道必須要仰賴所謂的超級電腦的一個龐大的算力跟它的速度這個同意吧"},{"start":12180.683,"end":12201.954,"text":"我同意當各國其實都在積極地爭取主權AI的時候其實這個部分我們也要非常的這個算是我要給這個正面的肯定就是我們有這個台灣三的一個系列這是台灣獨立自製的一個超級電腦之一但是目前為止這個算力的部分或者是在我們的這個創新一號的這個超級電腦"},{"start":12204.735,"end":12230.004,"text":"我們當然要不斷地去栽培一些人才才能夠讓台灣成為智慧國家的一個目標但是根據英國Oxford Insight每年對於所謂的各國AI準備程度來進行一個評比台灣其實目前是落後到第19名 這個部分 諸位怎麼看?"},{"start":12230.97,"end":12246.925,"text":"我們現在正在努力,剛剛委員也提到說我們已經編列預算了,這個預算我希望能夠順利獲得立法院的支持,讓我們明年資料中心的設備,就是超級電腦的建置可以順利的完成。"},{"start":12247.626,"end":12267.479,"text":"我希望如果我們能夠按照計畫執行的話我們將來的這個準備度一定會大幅提升那我們同步也會發展剛剛有提到這個AI應用的新的主權AI系統的這個開發也結合我們的產業界的投資希望能夠讓我們的AI的這個準備度的排名"},{"start":12269.901,"end":12279.45,"text":"提升,讓民眾可以受益,各行各業都可以受益到我們自己發展的這個主權AI的應用系統。"},{"start":12280.356,"end":12281.457,"text":"總算力的排名前三國以全球來講是美國日本跟芬蘭"},{"start":12302.467,"end":12313.462,"text":"台灣是第17目前我們國科會所建制的剛剛我提到的台灣山2號的排名已經從2018年的第20名滑落到今年變成是106名這個部分怎麼解釋它呢?"},{"start":12318.408,"end":12345.208,"text":"所以5年來大家可以看到5年來的進步非常的快那各國都在投資當中所以我們也要加緊腳步 急起直追所以我們從明年開始我們陸續會建置的這個算力會從現在的這個19大概19的Petal Flops進步到可能會超過20倍啦在4年內超過20倍希望能夠把台灣的排名往上不斷的提升"},{"start":12345.708,"end":12368.348,"text":"因為我們知道這個距離我們的目標我們的目標其實還有五年的時間那當然這個算力其實也會影響到比方說我們講的地震的一個預測或者是氣候或者是一個災害的應變等等所以這五年當中如果沒有其他的一些事件的一些干擾那我說這個五年有可能達標嗎?"},{"start":12370.239,"end":12388.54,"text":"五年內如果我們按照我們計畫執行我覺得一定可以達標因為政府的這個投入會引起會帶動產業的投入特別我們在發展應用的部分加緊腳步的話產業投入一定會遠高於這個政府的投入所以我們算力的提升會大幅增加的"},{"start":12389.32,"end":12410.409,"text":"好 那剛剛有特別提到一個產業的部分那其實我們台灣企業整體的AI的準備度其實目前還是偏低啦因為台灣大概其實有98%以上其實都是所謂的中小的企業那這個部分其實我們可能還是期待這個國科會這個地方可能也要去慢慢的去輔導這些"},{"start":12411.189,"end":12411.469,"text":"國會會議的回應是2026年"},{"start":12430.896,"end":12432.657,"text":"我們希望能夠是在2026但目前為止這個計畫好像還是遠遠的落後2026有可能我們可以看到我們台灣第一顆的低軌衛星發射嗎"},{"start":12451.292,"end":12471.15,"text":"我們太空中心原來在規劃太空三期的時候那時候並沒有涵蓋通信衛星因為那時候低軌衛星的產業還不是那麼明朗那後來決定要發展低軌衛星的時候其實主要是通信低軌衛星是做通信使用那是重點"},{"start":12471.77,"end":12478.335,"text":"因為那個是在比方說像第一尾衛星我們知道在這個惡霧戰爭當中其實它扮演了非常重要的一個角色所以它牽涉到台灣的這個韌性我們通訊的韌性也牽涉到國安還有國土安全我們的監測等等將來在海面上在這個偏遠地區我們都有辦法能夠維持我們的通訊這是非常重要但是因為台灣過去並沒有這個經驗做這個衛星通訊的系統"},{"start":12498.912,"end":12525.769,"text":"所以我特別安排了一個全國的我們叫SRV的這個會議在10月就要舉行會把我們整個臺灣的在今年10月嗎?今年,對,下個月就要舉行了,很快那就是希望能夠得到一個我們的政府、學界還有產業界的共識將來讓大家知道說我們在太空科技裡面進到低軌衛星通信的籌載的發展晶片非常重要"},{"start":12526.269,"end":12541.214,"text":"目前我們沒有這個晶片的能力我們要透過跟美國跟日本的合作引進相關的這個規格技術發展台灣的這種產業我們會有一個完整的策略在我們SRV會議開完以後就會公告了"},{"start":12541.534,"end":12560.971,"text":"我想這個完整的策略當然其實我們以完美的這個去想像這個時間點其實我們自己內部來做是絕對OK嘛但是問題是在選址我們要舉辦公聽會因為還有環評還有當地居民這部分光是公聽會的部分要取得共識可能不是只有短短一兩年所以2026肯定延後"},{"start":12562.611,"end":12583.096,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們衛星發射如果要自己在我們自己本土做的話這個時間會比較長但是我們發射衛星目前都是美國協助我們發射但是衛星我們自己設計特別是通訊的那個籌載也是自己設計至於選址的部分謝謝委員提醒我們已經初步選定了選定了可能的這個場址"},{"start":12584.736,"end":12603.878,"text":"當然在台東縣、在這個屏東縣我們現在正在規劃要進行這個溝通先跟我們部落原住民的部落溝通再來就是這個地方政府也進來協調因為還有這個用地的取得等等或許這些我們會按照法規、按照程序來進行"},{"start":12604.639,"end":12621.989,"text":"好,如果有比較確定的一些進程再麻煩讓我的辦公室稍微知道因為我上個會期就在關心這個事情好,謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝謝謝主席好,謝謝郭育群委員主委請回再來我們請陳秀寶委員質詢謝謝主席請吳主委有請吳主委"},{"start":12637.562,"end":12657.534,"text":"各位好,在2022年底CHAT GPT公布之後,我們國科會這邊就有意識到說其實AI聊天機器人的文化侵略性質很強,所以宣布我們台灣要自己製造自己的繁體中文語言模型,也就是TED"},{"start":12658.174,"end":12675.958,"text":"那泰德建制計畫呢從2023年4月底啟動之後大概一年的時間後我們在今年的5月初有成果的發表那本席在5月底的時候有試用過發現說其實泰德的資料庫有許多資料沒有及時的更新那本席在質詢的時候主委這邊我也有詢過過您"},{"start":12678.939,"end":12688.765,"text":"那也要求國科會這邊呢應該要增加TIDE的資料庫並且設定出定期更新的時程那我這邊想請教主委目前辦理的狀況怎樣對這個資料庫的增加還有整個的期程我們如何訂定"},{"start":12694.827,"end":12722.792,"text":"有,我們也持續編列預算從明年開始也希望增加它的這個應用那誠如陳委員所提到的我們在應用的時候那個訓練資料非常重要那我們現在有不同的這個管道獲得資料一個就是公開的資料是免費的不需要授權的另外一種就是需要授權的資料我們也增加需要授權資料需要編列經費因為有些資料是需要授權金的"},{"start":12722.912,"end":12735.968,"text":"你意思是說如果有一些公開資料不需要授權的我們會盡快把這些資料更新進去那對於需要授權需要付費的這個部分呢我們也編列預算了來增加是嗎那對於更新的時程你們怎麼訂定"},{"start":12740.719,"end":12752.308,"text":"資料更新是一直在持續進行的啦那現在幾個重點的推動第一個會以公部門的資料為主所以我們在年底會推出一些公部門的應用推出那包含立院達許這些系統也在規劃之中"},{"start":12753.945,"end":12778.251,"text":"所以是不定期的來更新就是資料更新本來就一直在收集我們一個團隊在國研院下面一個團隊一直在持續收集資料泰德在目前已經算是一個訓練有成果出來的階段那後續呢作為說我們泰德算是一個比較完整的資訊而且是資訊正確的一個繁體中文的語言模型那後續呢國科會這邊你們有沒有對泰德的推廣有什麼計畫跟目標我們預計跟哪些產業來合作"},{"start":12783.274,"end":12812.752,"text":"我們將來在智慧科技當然方產業生態系我們從事應用的時候我們也會把它用上來將來就會結合我們的產業的發展希望產業進來以後針對各行各業能夠訓練各行各業需求的這種模型在從明年的計畫開始就會陸續推動所以也就不只在現在我們的預算只能協助政府做部分的這個應用而已將來各行各業的應用才是最重要的"},{"start":12813.533,"end":12827.067,"text":"後續有沒有跨國的推廣合作的這些使用的計畫?如果將來使用繁體中文的系統的一些應用其他國家地區有需要的話我們當然也能夠透過我們的產業界能夠擴展到國際市場"},{"start":12828.769,"end":12854.487,"text":"因為這個不同於是那種開放性的就是比較open的那種AI的使用它是一個比較有選擇性的但是因為國科會我們建制的這個態的這個整個系統其實很不容易而且這也是正確的方向因為其實大家有體會到說在這個目前AI的使用上簡體字版其實對我們台灣是非常的不友善而且很多訊息是不正確的那所以說我們如果已經有"},{"start":12856.408,"end":12867.174,"text":"一個成果展現出來的希望可以持續的精進泰德的資料庫像世界展現說我們可以正確回答台灣相關問題的AI那這個部分也希望說我們國科會這邊除了剛才我提到的在資料庫的建置補充以及更新這個隨時的更新之外呢能夠比較積極的來推廣我們有一個正確的聲音在國際上替我們台灣來發聲"},{"start":12882.342,"end":12886.649,"text":"委員的提醒非常重要我們也很同意我們希望往這個方向努力"},{"start":12888.101,"end":12903.692,"text":"接下來我想請教主委其實今天也蠻多委員有針對這個問題審計部有針對我們國科會延攬人才計畫中我們博士級的研究人員的延攬情形提出了檢討那有指出說其中有178位的人員接受補助延攬已經10到22次更有123位的人員自從102年開始就接受延攬補助"},{"start":12913.118,"end":12915.859,"text":"本席覺得說其實針對延攬人才的補助我們的初衷是希望說我們這些人才在計畫結束之後呢可以轉任進學校產業或是研究機構但是像這個樣子不斷的接受延攬的狀況主委對這個狀況你有什麼想法我覺得的確是對這些人才"},{"start":12934.504,"end":12962.286,"text":"來講有些不公平的地方那我們其實也已經提醒我們用人的單位在接受國會補助的時候希望能夠協助這些人才能夠做適當的生涯發展不要只是說一個聘約結束就沒有了這些人員其實他是計劃人力他不是認知他等於是非典型的勞工他對他的這樣的一份工作其實他沒有長期聘用的保證相對來說也是對他生涯發展的一個阻礙"},{"start":12962.927,"end":12967.068,"text":"所以希望說國科會你們要針對這樣的狀況是不是有建立一個審查排查的機制不僅就是說學術單位沒有開缺的這個問題其實產業界也是需要人才的那有人才的需求國科會更應該縫合我們的計畫的研究人才跟產業人才的這個落差讓我們這個人才可以延續上因為這些人才他們出入在哪裡他如果一直困在這些短期的研究計畫裡面他們的出入何在"},{"start":12992.472,"end":12993.473,"text":"主委,您對這個部分有什麼看法?"},{"start":13007.74,"end":13030.859,"text":"我蠻認同的我們接下來新的這一期的計畫我們會提醒申請的用人的單位如果國會補助的話我們當然是期待說我們用人單位要積極的來協助他使用的這些人才將來在生涯發展也要協助他們不要期限到就拼約結束就不管了希望他們也能夠積極協助"},{"start":13032.02,"end":13051.101,"text":"謝謝主委,您也是有意識到這個問題的存在所以這個部分希望說除了說有審計部對你們提出檢討之外你們本身對這個問題的產生為什麼有這樣的現象那有了這樣的現象之後如果去協助跟解決國科會你必須有一個機制是"},{"start":13052.418,"end":13059.464,"text":"接下來對於大南方計畫這邊就叫主委首先本席也要肯認主委在大南方計畫的目標針對AI的發展蓬勃不僅只是科技產業需要導入AI跟高科技的協助當然在本席的選區有很多傳產如果傳產的整個製程營運以及研發可以從AI的發展中得到注意本席相信說我們邁向智慧科技導這個速度會更快"},{"start":13079.62,"end":13106.396,"text":"所以本席也十分的支持國會提出的這個推出適合於百工百業的AI應用並且來發展系統性的應用服務為百工百業來服務但是本席還是要先關心一下就是在布拉格前進基地目前的狀況那媒體有報導說我們布拉格的IC設計的基地還沒有開始營運那本席請問之後呢都是說你們是在調整方向那想要了解一下說所謂調整方向"},{"start":13107.799,"end":13112.797,"text":"的內容跟我們到底什麼時候 這個基地可以開始提供培訓服務"},{"start":13113.669,"end":13141.579,"text":"我們因為5月剛接任的時候對這個合作的這個內容不是很清楚那再加上接下來又有捷克的那個選舉所以他們的那個政府的那個組織負責的這個人員也會有一些更替然後執行的單位包含那個大學端還有他們的政府的那個負責的這個部門之間也有一些不同的這個看法所以經過一段時間的"},{"start":13143.2,"end":13146.944,"text":"所以我們還沒有辦法知道說我們什麼時候可以提供培訓服務甚至說什麼時候可以有第一批的人才到台灣做進一步的學習其實服務已經開始了因為我們學界之間的這個互動"},{"start":13161.781,"end":13183.476,"text":"本來就不會因為政治但是政府的看法不一樣就是那個捷克的政府跟我們這邊因為還有牽涉到外交部我們整體的這個任性台姐任性計畫牽涉到好幾個部會國會現在負責的就是人才人才培育的部分那我們現在已經跟他們溝通到一個程度我認為在年底之前應該會定案"},{"start":13184.777,"end":13205.264,"text":"主委的意思是說在年底之前就有好消息其實本席一系列的這個問題都是聚焦在人才的培訓、延攬、留才以及育才所以希望說國會會這邊可以當人才培育的領頭羊既然我們看見國際的需求也了解到產業的困境那我們要輔導傳產進入智慧科技的這個領域也希望說智慧科技在台灣各產業各領域都能夠均衡的發展那延續剛剛提到的"},{"start":13210.406,"end":13218.333,"text":"114年國科會跨部會推動智慧科技大南方產業生態系推動方案那預計在5年會投入300億元的預算分成4大領域來推動但是其實在預算說明會上面國科會並沒有對系部的計畫及預算的使用說的詳細那這麼大規模的預算我相信民眾也會想知道說國科會你們在推動這個方案的規劃及內容"},{"start":13237.188,"end":13261.227,"text":"所以主委這個部分也要請你們多加說明因為你們只有在擴散力引人才練場域之後然後帶入展應用那其實對一般的民眾來講他們沒有辦法了解說你們講得這麼籠統到底你們是要做哪些那再來呢我要問的是說其中你們引人才的部分你們將串聯嘉義台南高雄的技職學校協助技職轉型"},{"start":13262.188,"end":13281.501,"text":"那其中參旅、健康照護都是優先推行的目標但是學界是有疑慮了那以往國科會你們就常常被詬病說你們是重科學情人文那這一次的人才培育計畫呢是不是又有可能將大量的資源依註到注重在生技、醫學這樣的項目而忽視了參與的部分那主委那針對這個部分呢國科會你們70億這個預算你們如何運用"},{"start":13290.512,"end":13314.719,"text":"我們其實是要協助百工百業所以不只是在科技提供的領域連需求端剛剛委員也有提到餐飲業、旅館業、休閒業等等這些其實都在我們將來要協助的範圍裡面希望能夠讓他們可以引進AI但是AI的提供端我們也會補助需求端我們也會補助"},{"start":13315.639,"end":13330.89,"text":"現在在學界一例就是說你們有沒有一個審查的機制你們未來的資源是不是會合理的分配或者是你們只是把產業框進來但是預算資源又沒有合理分配只是偏重某些的領域不會只偏重某些領域我們會全面性的來協助"},{"start":13332.251,"end":13360.75,"text":"謝謝主委所以本期希望國科會你們推動各項政策要落實產學溝通溝通真的非常重要尤其國科會你們這次將參與健康這個列為是AI科技推動的重點目標所以一定要針對產學合作這個需求來制定計劃才能夠創造產學雙贏的這個榮景這個部分不知道說主委你們有沒有領略到說學界他們的憂慮在哪裡焦慮在哪裡"},{"start":13362.791,"end":13368.312,"text":"主要就是我剛剛講的你們不能只是把產業框進來之後你們誘導資源偏重在某些領域這樣對這些學界也是不公平的好 謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":13388.342,"end":13389.782,"text":"主席有請主委有請主委"},{"start":13410.905,"end":13439.3,"text":"主委好賴清哲總統選前程說要打造台灣為AI之島那我想請問您我們台灣成為AI之島做到了嗎或者是準備好了嗎我們開始在準備現在還沒有做到大概什麼時候你覺得在國科會跟行政團隊努力之下你可以就是很有信心的說台灣就是AI之島我們做到了"},{"start":13439.48,"end":13460.445,"text":"我相信我們在4年內就是賴總統執政的這段期間我們可以做到相當的程度讓台灣在這個AI的應用上面能夠在全世界的前半段那你所謂的4年內達標你的衡量指標是什麼"},{"start":13461.425,"end":13487.691,"text":"是希望我們大部分的行業都有使用AI工具的這樣的文化會出現我聽起來太抽象可不可以有一點具體的指標比如說剛剛前一位委員提醒的我們將來在推動智慧科技的方案的時候能夠讓這個應用到各行各業不是只有在現在科技業的使用而已"},{"start":13488.351,"end":13495.537,"text":"我這樣講好了,事實上我們現在明年總預算關於政府科技發展計畫編列1466億元那台灣AI行動計畫2.0也編了157.48億元可是"},{"start":13504.904,"end":13515.35,"text":"立法院預算中心報告指出我們AI排名及超級電腦的算力持續落後準備度更是亞洲四小龍墊底對這個成績你滿意嗎?"},{"start":13519.127,"end":13536.976,"text":"不滿意所以我們未來這幾年編的預算就會逐步來加強我們現在資料中心的建置還有超級電腦的這個建置然後發展相關的這個應用讓我們的這個擴散率AI應用的擴散率可以大幅的提升"},{"start":13538.397,"end":13565.271,"text":"非常謝謝主委有一些做法端的想法但我還是要回到一開始請教你的你有信心保證在賴清德總統任滿之前能夠實現AI指導這個目標我覺得恐怕要給自己更具體的一些衡量指標那我舉個例子預算中心報告指出AI準備度世界排名我們是下滑的到19名"},{"start":13567.292,"end":13584.913,"text":"總統賴清德剛上來﹖說下滑的責任是蔡英文﹖也不能怪她﹖這點我們要公道一點可是你剛剛已經講4年﹖我想請問您﹖4年後賴總統卸任的那一年﹖你有沒有辦法保證我們的AI準備度世界排行第一名"},{"start":13586.496,"end":13601.98,"text":"第一名不敢講,但是我相信我們可以進到全10名了好,非常好,大家記住這個我就喜歡我們主委的這個所謂的大氣所謂的那個目標的明確我們希望AI準備度可以從19名回到10名內這是我們的一個期許"},{"start":13606.441,"end":13621.654,"text":"另外我們攸關AI產業重心的超級電腦算力台灣排名抱歉也是下滑我還是同樣的這也不能怪賴清德總統剛上任要怪也是可以他終究過去是民進黨團隊議員也是曾經當過行政院院長"},{"start":13625.177,"end":13638.64,"text":"但是沒關係現在總算力是第17名請問主委4年內在總統卸任前你覺得我們台灣可以把總算力拼到第幾名你的目標"},{"start":13640.931,"end":13668.786,"text":"總算例啊對我們也希望能夠進到前10名進到前10名非常好雙前10名只有今天我跟主委的一個共識但是主委抱歉我對國科會有一點點沒那麼有信心對不對你們自己創建建制的台灣三二號下滑到106名如果國科會自己的業務你都到百名外了你跟我講四年後"},{"start":13670.463,"end":13692.428,"text":"說你要拚到10名內我想請教我們的主委我覺得你給我一點信心底氣好不好我這樣就顯得很沒信心啊好 既然委員這樣期許我們接下來我們4年會逐步增加我們的算力的建置資料中心希望委員要支持我們的預算不要看我們的預算"},{"start":13693.499,"end":13712.027,"text":"我跟主委說像新加坡在全球人工智慧準備度指數就是第一名我們在四小龍是排最後一名說真的其實蠻難看的當然現在亡羊補牢急起直追希望主委你可以當領頭羊謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝羅志強委員主委請回再來我們請陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":13725.311,"end":13750.427,"text":"有請主委,謝謝主席請主委主委,我想要先謝謝國科會在我們去年質詢關於兒少科普的事情之後呢我們看到國科會在今年馬上就在Kids Science活動當中的一個系列再加上給小小孩的Kids Science這個兒童日那我自己當天也玩了非常多的"},{"start":13751.167,"end":13773.435,"text":"一站一站的闖關跟相關的攤位甚至我還在現場意外的遇到我的好朋友帶他們家小小孩真的就實際去參與這個活動我相信這個事情如果回到你的小時候你你怎麼來看身為一個小孩你怎麼來看像這樣子有趣而且是讓孩子們直接走進科學研究大樓到這個現場去體驗你如何看像這樣的活動對孩子的意義"},{"start":13774.395,"end":13795.513,"text":"可惜我出生的年代沒有國科會這樣的協助我真的會很高興他們從小就認識科學能夠帶給這個社會多麼有趣的一面然後能夠協助大家在生活各層面的發展我認為這個是很好的活動那也很謝謝陳委員長期對我們科普的支持"},{"start":13796.192,"end":13815.272,"text":"那我覺得就像你剛剛講的你小時候沒有國科會但是現在小孩長大有國科會給予這樣的支持所以我也很希望像這樣的活動一定要持續辦理甚至去討論擴大辦理的可能性那當然在不增加國科會工作壓力太多的情況之下我想我們就提出這樣的要求是不是主委這邊可以做個承諾"},{"start":13816.033,"end":13840.707,"text":"我承諾要做這件事那其實我們經費的編列也已經增加了在未來這幾年希望能夠擴大對我們全國的小朋友他在這個科學上面的認知能夠及早讓他們了解激發他們的這個興趣那將來他不管從事任何的行業有這種科學的基礎對他們在任何即使是人文領域都會很有幫助"},{"start":13841.187,"end":13865.341,"text":"這個我完全認同喔那這邊我看到處長也新上任的處長也已經在你的後面了這邊我想要問一下處長你有沒有印象在幾年前呢立法院其實有開了這個公聽會在2017年關於科技基本法修法的時候把科普入法的公聽會當時處長你也在你有印象在這個公聽會上其實我們有提出一個非常重要的觀點就是不管是科學教育科學轉譯科學傳播"},{"start":13867.202,"end":13886.72,"text":"其實應該都是重要的科普工具跟工作對不對這邊可不可以請處長回應一下之前您在這個公聽會上也有發言這樣是謝謝委員對我們希望說好的科學研究可以透過多層次的科學轉移讓一般的民眾可以更清楚的理解是"},{"start":13887.78,"end":13912.068,"text":"這個轉譯跟傳播其實也非常符合趙偉今天所訂的主題它其實是一個非常重要的政策溝通工具我們來看一下大家想到科普的時候真的就會想到我剛剛說包含我去參加那個活動叫科學教育活動但明明科學傳播跟知識轉譯其實也非常非常的重要但是在處長您新上任我想要跟您討論的我們如何去增加所謂科學傳播跟知識轉譯"},{"start":13913.368,"end":13920.643,"text":"在國科會您的這個新上任之後你如何把這個視為是重要的政策方向我來分享一個網頁來我們往下看"},{"start":13923.177,"end":13943.584,"text":"這個FB有一個專頁叫怪奇事務所他會用非常有趣的動畫或是圖卡來跟很多小孩分享關於科學知識還有大家都非常熟悉的搞笑諾貝爾獎可能在很多非常嚴肅的科學家眼中看起來這不是一個好的科學研究但是他確實可能是一個很重要的入門專再來或是樹幹實驗室他們會把很多比較困難的知識視覺化、圖卡化作為很重要的溝通方法"},{"start":13950.386,"end":13957.694,"text":"讓更多人可以進入這個科學領域不知道處長跟主委你們怎麼看像這樣子的轉譯跟相關的傳播工具的可能性"},{"start":13960.81,"end":13983.079,"text":"科學傳播就是除了科學教育之外呢其實還要有很多樂趣可以吸引一般民眾的眼光所以像比如說委員這個戴雄的便便為什麼是方的其實這一位搞笑都非常得主現在是在清華大學動力機械系那他也在國科會的計畫邀請之下呢也到高雄的科工館"},{"start":13984.259,"end":14008.849,"text":"做了一場科普講座是死尿物理學這個是一個非常吸引的我相信所有的小孩聽到死尿這兩個字就會非常的開心也就是說我們大人可能覺得怎麼不要一天到晚講這個又是死又是尿但是如果這個興趣可以作為孩子們進入或是一般成人進入科學領域我相信非常重要的一件事情所以我們來看下一頁其實國科會都支持了非常多好的研究可是"},{"start":14009.449,"end":14021.916,"text":"可能真的缺了所謂的轉譯跟傳播所以事實上很多人並不知道有這些很棒的研究甚至是還有很多本地化的主題的研究也都沒有被看見我們真的覺得很可惜常常在很多公共電視新聞看過瞬間"},{"start":14024.637,"end":14038.639,"text":"更不要講公共電視它的收看率跟一般其他商業電視台的比較可能又更低所以我這邊是不是可以積極的提出回到今天的專案報告主題所謂的永續科研跟政策溝通到底我們要怎麼樣把我們的科研成果讓社會知道"},{"start":14039.961,"end":14068.786,"text":"我發現在國科會今年的永續科學學門專題研究我整理了這些我們來看一下它有台灣的廢水的問題地下水還有黑潮入侵還有新型態的海水與藻共生這麼多這麼多題目我們如何讓更多的公民知道台灣的科學家台灣的政府台灣的學者其實在非常多層面都非常努力回應到我剛剛說的科學轉譯跟科學傳播科學教育我覺得應該都會是非常重要的一部分"},{"start":14069.246,"end":14086.725,"text":"好下一頁所以這邊也要拜託國科會提醒國科會一樣是科學轉譯的研究其實這幾年台灣有中研院的顏值有物或者是民間有非常多出版社也會跟很多專家學者合作出版相關的書籍不管是師大或是台大或是中研院"},{"start":14087.165,"end":14109.915,"text":"都有很多跟民間合作的案例或者是他們自己也做了有趣的網站我想要說相關的傳播知識如果沒有有趣作為一個很重要的入門專這對很多人來說就是一個門檻那我自己的專業我會來看其實是整體對於知識編輯的這個角度來看這個事情所以這邊是不是有一個建議想要提出來給國科會主委跟新上任的處長作為參考我們來看一下"},{"start":14112.196,"end":14136.715,"text":"目前以科普為主出版為主的有所謂吳大游科普獎我相信兩位都知道還有國科會對於學校教授有相關的教案補助可是事實上我認為一個好的科普文或者是一個好的科普影片或是一個好用的科普網站如果沒有相對應的肯定方法給予他們相關的獎項相關的肯定對於這些在第一線做這些科普推廣"},{"start":14137.375,"end":14137.595,"text":"這個要求很具體對不對?"},{"start":14165.049,"end":14168.151,"text":"陳委員這個建議我們會納入考量因為按照剛剛的講法任何的改變需要請教我們這個專家我們請教過以後我們再研議一下看看"},{"start":14183.442,"end":14207.038,"text":"我覺得成立獎項的困難大概有幾個啦一就是誰可以當這個獎項的評審或者是什麼樣的轉譯方法或是創作方法值得被肯定他是來自於受眾的肯定還是來自專家學者圈的肯定我覺得這是兩個不同的意見的交集但是國科會如果可以擔任這個籌備的平台把大家的意見做成一個溝通然後有一個期間"},{"start":14207.619,"end":14216.62,"text":"我相信會有更多人願意投入所謂科學教育轉譯跟創作的這個行列那他也可以成為國科會非常重要的幫手對不對"},{"start":14217.671,"end":14242.56,"text":"是,好,謝謝委員的建議,我們會持續考慮那你不要只有持續考慮啦,因為我還有一些時間,所以我可以再多拜託一下如果不要持續考慮,更積極,我們可不可以先開相關會議來討論可能會遇到的困難可以,我們會邀請這個領域的專家學者我們來請教看看是不是好好的設計這樣的這個誘因這個誘因就是要鼓勵大家能夠投入嘛這是很正面的"},{"start":14243.34,"end":14272.239,"text":"這是獎項的部分,那我們辦公室也會繼續再跟國科會來開會討論好不好?好,謝謝陳委員那有了獎項之後我們再多要求一個啦就是產業交流平台喔事實上很多的產官學的交流其實對於很多議題的推進是非常重要我相信主委跟新的處長應該都很有感覺那目前呢在教育部有一個關於科學教育跟博物館的科普論壇但是我們有沒有辦法在國科會的支持底下辦一個關於科普內容創作者的交流論壇"},{"start":14273.54,"end":14291.53,"text":"作為回應這個時代有更多年輕人或是更多的創業家更多的知識工作者科學教育知識工作者他們願意用不同的方法投入所謂科學教育他不會只局限於到大學去教書他也不會只局限於進中小學教科學他其實在各行各業都有這個機會"},{"start":14292.671,"end":14322.363,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":14322.957,"end":14336.483,"text":"我們應該會找一些科普比較有經驗的前輩老師們大家一起來開會討論那甚至剛剛這張投影片裡面就是跟教育部的這個科普論壇其實也是有合作的機會謝謝"},{"start":14337.844,"end":14365.69,"text":"好,也就是說確實我們辦公室找了這麼多資料我們最在意的就是科普他必須要用不同的方法不同的時間點或是不同的形態被更多不在科學領域當中的人看見而且他們也願意參與其中我相信所有科學教育的普及絕對是這個時代的公民不能少的基本知識甚至我們在說不管是面對假資訊或者是面對詐騙面對更多判斷能力上需求我相信科學教育絕對不能缺席,對嗎?"},{"start":14365.69,"end":14365.75,"text":"主委"},{"start":14367.822,"end":14392.424,"text":"是的,同意委員所以我要再次感謝國科會關於兒童科普的努力我們也看到那個活動我們希望可以持續辦理剛剛主委你已經答應了那後續的獎項或者是這個論壇的平台我們也希望國科會可以積極的跟進在科普的科學轉譯或是相關的科學教育或是科普的傳播我覺得國科會可以有更多的角色跟努力好不好是,謝謝那我們也會跟國科會一起努力"},{"start":14393.484,"end":14402.37,"text":"好謝謝委員那我們就期待你們有相關進度我們辦公室也會持續追蹤謝謝好謝謝主委謝謝處長謝謝主席謝謝陳培育委員主委請回再來我們請賴世保委員質詢謝謝主席及各位先進有請國共會的吳主委好吳主委請賴委員好主委您早"},{"start":14423.24,"end":14444.629,"text":"我記得上個禮拜我總質詢的時候提到說這個台灣的AI的相關的準備度了我們是亞洲四小龍最後一名你很霸氣的很快的講說兩年內要超過香港三年內要超過南韓請問你講這個話是"},{"start":14448.449,"end":14475.842,"text":"是有什麼依據的?你是現在公布的還是依據什麼來講一下基於我們過去在雲端資料中心以及這個超級電腦的建制就是比較投入沒有那麼多那在未來幾年我們的這個建制我們已經編列預算要逐年要增加我們的算力再加上我們現在新的這個那個方案"},{"start":14476.742,"end":14479.123,"text":"在加強我們AI的應用的部分我們也提出來了所以未來幾年台灣的這個AI沒有沒有一個推動計畫啦你剛才還回答了一個委員說這個在任內在未來的幾年要讓這個排名到前10名講這個東西你總是要有個計畫有個根據嘛阿不然就親自說說而已這樣"},{"start":14500.552,"end":14505.535,"text":"我還要預算編列完,剛要計畫編列完,各部會就會有執行單位來提計畫了你沒有說到我的重點,我的重點是說你憑什麼,你用什麼樣的niche說我可以到前10年"},{"start":14518.223,"end":14532.394,"text":"就是依照我們現在AI應用的普及度,現在還蠻低的但是我們未來4年還是很虛啦吼,你的答案就是向大家講說我錢就變下去了,一定會出來,這個成績就出來變成這樣,啊如果這麼簡單就錢就一直落得好啊,三千塊當然不是這樣聽不清楚啦"},{"start":14539.74,"end":14555.292,"text":"主委阿這樣聽不清楚齁好這個說起來你是比較傾向於我的感覺啦齁這個叫guts feeling齁現在公共兩內齁我們來看一下齁下一張我們來看一下今天喔電價審議委員會要審電價現在台電等於恐嚇全民齁準備工業用電要漲14%"},{"start":14566.656,"end":14582.361,"text":"而我們看到今天因為談AI啊有人講AI啊因為世界大廠的計算中心要在台灣設計算中心比如說Google就Google一年要耗掉8.4億度的電請問你啊你知道說我們國科會底下有科學園區嘛一年用幾億度的電你知道嗎"},{"start":14595.796,"end":14598.883,"text":"科學園區 報告委員我看看我們園區有沒有這個數字"},{"start":14604.141,"end":14620.673,"text":"我給你一個大約的數字一年台灣的用電量是2800億度台積電一加就超過10%所以你們大概幾百億度跟委員報告每一年112年總用電度是447億度幾百億度嘛幾百億度當然這個漲化算我們全年的總用電量2800億度"},{"start":14633.271,"end":14650.293,"text":"台積電一家超過10%所以台積電大概就300多億度左右所以以這樣來看的話這個對於科學園區當然用電的成本對他來講可能這些大廠可能不是很大的比例"},{"start":14651.394,"end":14667.055,"text":"我就請問你國科會的主委你是科學營區的主管的主管單位你會不會替這些的這些的大廠啊電子公司啊這高科技的會不會擔心他們的用電成本"},{"start":14668.716,"end":14691.801,"text":"我們在園區開發的時候對於這個電力的需求我們都會跟台電來商量協調那一定是確保電力的供應無虞的時候我們才會進行這個園區的開發跟建廠現在問題電解石的時期都沒考慮到計算中心啊沒考慮到AI啊現在有AI的廠了現在都有客戶"},{"start":14695.276,"end":14698.518,"text":"這部分要各方的評估,這是我想經濟部會審慎的來應應這樣的建議台山,那個山木的山,木山"},{"start":14722.052,"end":14744.097,"text":"臺山投資國會﹚他的國外基金投資的事成﹚在竹科建立了無人機的反制系統你知道嗎?你不知道嗎?因為老公的無人機老是來給我們干擾所以我們國科會這個好事情啊你都不知道我請南科局長"},{"start":14749.019,"end":14777.641,"text":"不是台三我們是有建置那個無人機反制的系統沒有我只是講說竹科有建置的其他的園區要不要也建置我就這個答案好不好都有喔那個超過30秒囉是不是主委之後能夠跟我們賴委員溝通好嗎或者是好啦你不用那麼緊張嘛因為我們剛剛都只有超過30秒要溝通這樣好啦這個無人機的反制系統不要只有在竹科啦其他的"},{"start":14778.773,"end":14778.933,"text":"主委請"},{"start":14800.678,"end":14823.016,"text":"陳委員好主委好主委我想跟你討論一下現在我們都很重視AI產業產業AI化AI產業化那在台南園區也就在我們的沙崙這個地方我們很開心就是說我們把重症能夠放在我們的沙崙但是我們更擔憂的是是不是"},{"start":14824.434,"end":14846.384,"text":"我們只有看到這樣的一個大計畫但是下面都是空的這是大家擔心的啊雖然在整個所謂的產業AI化AI產業化然後甚至把我們整個AI的運算資料中心建置在我們沙倫那周邊呢"},{"start":14848.561,"end":14857.629,"text":"在周邊呢他如果配套他的配套如果真的結合到南方產業的生態系可以促成我們這樣的一個大計畫"},{"start":14859.915,"end":14884.705,"text":"我們當然是希望說我們在沙倫的投資包含資料中心、超級電腦的建置以及我們相關的研發的工作包含在地區也有經濟部工研院還有在隔壁1區中央研究院再來就是成大這個是現在?"},{"start":14886.886,"end":14887.226,"text":"對,我就是要把這幾個"},{"start":14904.568,"end":14931.143,"text":"幾個已經建置好的區域真正把產業發展的能量帶進來AI應用的產業帶進來但是我們現在目前看到的你的計畫就是建置AI運算資料中心這個是只是一個工建計畫而已工建計畫對,我們還有那個運用的這個計畫預計呢?那你的預算跟期程進度怎麼抓?預算那個"},{"start":14935.134,"end":14957.974,"text":"我們現在預計114年到118年我們預計總體我們希望投入360億元的經費那剛剛有提到那個鏈廠域的部分還有展應用的部分其實大概都有一些相關的規劃了那我們現在預算就在明年因為現在要省了嘛在明年我們已經框了多少預算"},{"start":14960.404,"end":14965.263,"text":"在明年114年是我們的第一期第一年的預算"},{"start":14970.07,"end":14989.28,"text":"明年應該是第一年,第一年我們的工件預算會比較少我知道,因為在你一定說的計畫但是我的意思是說,你一定要先進去啊但是我們的平台,就是整合軟硬體做應用的這個平台明年就會先建置了然後就會把這個應用的人才會集中起來,把產業界帶進來"},{"start":14996.524,"end":15012.399,"text":"那這個時候我們編載這個經濟部數位發展部的這個預算會比較多所以會把那個需求端我知道這一次這個計畫是國科會跟數位部還有經濟部然後經濟部你們三方去做整個"},{"start":15013.2,"end":15014.121,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":15034.935,"end":15055.706,"text":"可是總是要讓人家有感阿!是!是!我們的態度跟我們的決定從我們第一期預算是看得出來的喔!是!那我們現在正在準備那個細節我們在年底之前就會讓大家都知道我們明年開始所有的一些工作的細項都會展開來我麻煩把這樣的一個計畫內容的預算我們要看到預算因為現在大家擔心的是"},{"start":15065.049,"end":15087.781,"text":"我們的計畫講得很好聽然後講得很偉大沒有經費不行對但是裡面是空的沒有經費那你又怎麼辦那如果沒有經費大家就會覺得說那今天只是一個平台嗎如果只是一個平台動不了人才也沒辦法進來沒有人才你怎麼做是不是人才很重要啊"},{"start":15088.661,"end":15110.562,"text":"那你要整合雖然我們今天看到的是國科會我們看到的是數位部我們看到的是經濟部我們很多的預算還分別都在他們的部會裡面有做了編列我也知道可是我們怎麼把它整合起來讓大家有感這才是我們要去追的我們希望"},{"start":15111.536,"end":15131.026,"text":"不要口號AI產業化產業AI化我們也希望真的所有的預算要趕快到位而且希望能夠在我們預算的編列當中趕快過謝謝大家謝謝委員謝謝陳庭菲委員主委請回再來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝召委我們請主委"},{"start":15144.81,"end":15144.851,"text":"主委請"},{"start":15150.174,"end":15175.067,"text":"楊委員好主委好學術研究大家非常清楚它是非常需要長期規劃跟穩健資源投入的工作因此政策的連貫性更是學術發展的一個重要的基礎但是最近學界傳出了國科會要將資料科學永續研究發展處"},{"start":15176.167,"end":15177.588,"text":"主委,您的看法呢?"},{"start":15195.168,"end":15197.331,"text":"為什麼吳峰會有浪呢?"},{"start":15214.293,"end":15236.925,"text":"內部出了什麼事情呢?而且跟你的回答跟你的作為是完全180度的,為什麼?是,我當然就不會去違反現在永續的發展是人類...謝謝主委你這麼說我就放心,但是我們反觀喔因為國會會在我們的國家來講我非常的重視跟尊重"},{"start":15238.365,"end":15260.119,"text":"為什麼會有這樣無風會起浪?朱太南你知道原因是什麼嗎?因為你是主委啊?可能是因為內部有一些想法想要改善協助這幾個領域的發展有些想法可是還沒有溝通就被散出去了所以引起學界的擔心你要不要管控一下?"},{"start":15260.939,"end":15266.921,"text":"所以我們未來會改善就是跟學界溝通的方式將來會有一個更完善的機制答非所問本席要提的是你內部的管控而不是你跟學界的溝通"},{"start":15290.127,"end":15292.969,"text":"內部的管控也會一併做,謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":15320.188,"end":15337.21,"text":"是嗎?所以這個題目你的回答是說你內部會出現這樣吳峰會起浪的你會去管控那麼同時也會跟相關的人好好去做溝通 是不是如此那這些不會做調整"},{"start":15338.071,"end":15358.1,"text":"還是尋訓永續的一個項目、方針、議題對不對?要不然大家很害怕還好你這麼回答因為大家很害怕我做了一半那沒有了那前功盡棄了浪費了而且我未來還有什麼樣子要做結果也沒有答案這樣子是不好的對不對?所以還是維持原來的步調"},{"start":15359.28,"end":15384.527,"text":"好 所以請社會大眾放心那麼我們根據最新的決勝報告裡頭你的111年到112年你每一年會編列20億執行這個優秀的科技人才跟研究學者但是我們看到其中178位的博士級的研究人員已經連續性的10到22次不等但是他得到了補助他並沒有去投入產業界或者是學界的任務"},{"start":15385.607,"end":15396.158,"text":"這一個任職那大家會有疑慮已經從10次到20次都一樣的人但是他沒有成效外界認為成效不彰你的說法呢"},{"start":15397.177,"end":15422.603,"text":"謝謝委員提醒少數執行單位有一些疏漏的地方我們現在我們在下一期的計畫裡面會提醒他們如果申請國會這樣的補助希望他們也對於這些人才將來生涯的發展也能夠進行協助不希望再有這種狀況發生不希望再有這種狀況我敬佩你有這個gas但是你的KPI必須要出來"},{"start":15423.764,"end":15444.764,"text":"你設定好你書面資料給本席好不好最後一個議題請教我們從110年到114年我們將近有17億的預算你新增了223個機櫃空間但是只有真正被租用的只有81個所以你的使用率大概是36%左右在這樣的情況之下有人說"},{"start":15445.985,"end":15471.041,"text":"這是國科會的科技文字館我聽了很難過我聽了很難過所以請教你要怎麼樣讓智慧國家不是一場空要怎麼做這個機櫃空的部分應該是預計要在逐年編約預算要再買設備進來它只是空的櫃子而已因為我們建這個資料中心的時候你現在租的只有81櫃嘛"},{"start":15472.862,"end":15472.882,"text":"謝謝委員：謝謝"},{"start":15496.201,"end":15511.705,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員還有那個主委請回提醒一下主委就您答應的事情彼此之間不要有矛盾因為剛才說不會秋後算帳所以什麼內部管控這個都是幫忙協助救火等等該檢討的部分就檢討我提醒一下召委"},{"start":15519.919,"end":15525.302,"text":"主委,你辛苦了,你有沒有吃便當?我吃了你的便當OK,辛苦了"},{"start":15545.773,"end":15568.167,"text":"因為這件事情很重要所以還是特別跑來就是上個禮拜五我在總質詢那個卓院長應該你有在場有聽到這個在95天台灣就進入超高齡社會那國科會在這件事情上面扮演非常關鍵的角色所以我希望跟你溝通一下"},{"start":15571.645,"end":15595.59,"text":"今天我們的主題是永續永續的科技、永續環境這件事情也是永續聯合國健康高齡10年行動裡面也列為這是國家的一個永續目標高齡化的一個社會那不只是醫療照護啦其實涵蓋的面向是全面性的我想博客會也了解"},{"start":15597.773,"end":15624.615,"text":"但是很可惜我們的卓院長在做施政報告的時候仰仰傻傻好幾萬字竟然沒有出現這五個字超高齡社會那這個就讓人太震驚了這件被稱為是國安問題影響到全面性的人口大翻轉的事情顯然現在還沒有進入我們政府的腦袋裡面"},{"start":15625.856,"end":15640.427,"text":"因為我想這個應該也是經過很多的討論經過各部門的一個集思廣益匯集出來竟然把一個在眼前的事情沒有提都沒提到沒有等一下那個然後當然這個"},{"start":15643.356,"end":15664.529,"text":"現在高齡者憂鬱症,國會院所做的憂鬱症這問題也蠻嚴重的這不僅是身體健康、四肢發達心理上面的問題也蠻多心理通常是社會性的問題社會結構性非常廣甚至是文化歧視各個方面的問題"},{"start":15667.165,"end":15681.894,"text":"那這個衛福部的高齡健康裡面的研究這個是整理他們所研究報告裡面的一些數據可以看得出來都還是偏重在照顧肋齡疾病上面的關注"},{"start":15684.485,"end":15706.379,"text":"我不曉得那國科會當然在這裡扮演很多的科技資源的角色但是我一直很就是我們了解現在真正的所謂的壯世代高齡者55歲以上的人這個龐大的人龐大的人口他們真正的需求嗎真真的是只是現在左邊的這一些項目嗎"},{"start":15708.663,"end":15737.288,"text":"好 這個在去年國科會針對政府高齡科技所提出來的一些對策架構的主張雖然有些地方也都有提到的產業的產業面向也蠻多的但是可以看出來所謂的生活場域也就是消費者在使用的情境當中都不外乎"},{"start":15738.783,"end":15745.417,"text":"繞著醫院、養老院、藥局、公園運動、樂齡宅、樂齡大學、藝文中心的小圈子在轉"},{"start":15747.86,"end":15770.594,"text":"科技只是這個普惠科技只是要解決讓在這個小圈子轉的時候能夠更便利那如果這是我們的國家的高齡政策這個真的這個叫做國安問題這些事情能夠解決我們的國安問題嗎所以我現在想要來問一下這個主委"},{"start":15772.987,"end":15797.686,"text":"國科會在主導我們高齡科技產業的這個行動計畫其實現在很多的研究依照的包括認知的資料庫都是過時的包括我們現在很多的法令好了45歲在我們政府裡面稱為中高齡現在一定45歲很多人都還沒結婚"},{"start":15799.376,"end":15816.746,"text":"平均年齡結婚之後變成中高齡準備代退那這就一個舊資料嘛 對不對65歲法定老人你現在65歲的都是社會的主幹很多所以這些都是過時的"},{"start":15818.234,"end":15818.454,"text":"請問主委你覺得這樣子會不會"},{"start":15837.552,"end":15856.013,"text":"能解決他的問題嗎?高齡化社會問題我其實同意委員的意見就是我們未來的研究特別是對民眾福祉健康的部分要促進的話一定是全年齡層來考慮不能只針對少數的族群當然是全年齡層"},{"start":15857.495,"end":15858.456,"text":"你知道再過10年台灣一般人口超過50歲嗎?"},{"start":15882.211,"end":15891.721,"text":"2034年一半50%的人超過所以未來的社會是以高齡者為主主要架構的社會你現在的整個科學技術有在考慮這一點嗎"},{"start":15893.191,"end":15919.819,"text":"有,現在其實我們在賴總統現在健康台灣的這個願景之下所以呢你知道我們其實有加重國發會每年8月會公布每兩年會公布一次我們的人口數據今年的該公布的拖到現在還沒有公布你知道原因嗎我不知道你不知道原因喔就是變得更加嚴重更加嚴重所以呢我們的人口"},{"start":15920.799,"end":15921.94,"text":"國科委最擅長的就是AI"},{"start":15941.255,"end":15968.058,"text":"那AI最重要的是不是資料庫那資料庫你知道這個data裡面嚴重的缺乏壯世代的足跡55歲以上人的足跡在我們的AI data裡面比例非常不成比例的減少這些人占人口的三分之一700多萬人掌握台灣三分之二財富是現在重要最主要的決策者公司機構的領導人都是壯世代但是這些人的"},{"start":15968.899,"end":15969.78,"text":"主委有沒有什麼解決方案?"},{"start":15984.671,"end":16010.921,"text":"如果這個數據慢慢再改變的話我們在資料的收集我剛剛有提到說我們全年齡層都要當然如果在55歲以上的人口的比重增加當然資料也要想一些方法啦因為我們社會都是依靠這些AI的數據來做決策啦但是這個決策當中嚴重的把這一些三分之一的人而且社會主力排除在外這個我們會確認一下"},{"start":16013.262,"end":16037.593,"text":"所以你要去確認好不好我在中研院討論過這個議題大家啞口無言顯然沒有對策但是這問題太嚴重了啦是是我同意這個比重增加了好不好那如果想要怎麼樣讓調整比那個資料更正確反映我們的社會真實現象嘛所以呢為什麼要談這件事情我們今天的社福預算已經超過8300億這8300億"},{"start":16041.755,"end":16054.24,"text":"當然是社會有沒有辦法解決這個人口我問院長院長沒有答案現在就是只能我們15%的需要長照需要施能的但是大量的這800萬的85%的需要發展性"},{"start":16057.981,"end":16070.997,"text":"如果你沒有做這樣的話他就會變成人口土石流大量的高齡者高齡者的人口如果他按照我們現在臥床8年的話未來整個都垮掉了啦現在三兆預算都沒辦法解決這個問題啦所以呢"},{"start":16074.12,"end":16082.947,"text":"現在政府應該要怎麼樣當然是雙軌制嘛照護性發展性減少他的人這個你認同嘛但是呢國科會我詢問過發文詢問過有沒有觀眾是在編列預算貴單位回復本113年度無編列55歲以上的族群預算"},{"start":16095.216,"end":16095.956,"text":"我現在提醒你要去重視好不好"},{"start":16123.405,"end":16143.339,"text":"所以,現在有很多的新資料有需要因為你是國家在這方面的政策科技政策所以,麻省理工學院有AGE Lab聯名實驗室我們國家應該需要這樣子你所認知的高齡者他的需求我們國家資料缺乏所以,最後一個請求"},{"start":16144.48,"end":16162.717,"text":"就是國科會可不可以成立HLAB年齡層 針對這一群 這個是三分之一人口社會主力也非常重要的 這裡解決了年輕人的問題才有辦法解決兒童問題才解決 因為他掌握台灣三分之二財富 是台灣很重要你認他"},{"start":16163.217,"end":16183.647,"text":"倒下來就又要跑來下一代所以在我們8月12日開的這個壯實的公聽會國科會也有出席然後也回應了這一些對認同的HLB應該可以去全面更寬廣的方面的這一個表達這樣的意見請問國科會還是持續這樣子的結論嗎如果我們的學術界"},{"start":16197.057,"end":16211.612,"text":"主委,您覺得這件事情重要嗎?重要啊現在就是我們明年叫做超高齡社會元年這件事情國科會在這邊扮演重要角色我們是不是可以把那個平衡一下"},{"start":16212.674,"end":16223.809,"text":"我講的就平衡一下去做發展性的這一些可能數據很多都要更新所以可不可以請國科會可以提出這樣子的一個有關於這一方面工作的一個計畫"},{"start":16226.388,"end":16248.628,"text":"這個計畫我們都存在,我們鼓勵學術界相關的研究可以提出來因為我們這邊做了很多的研究,但是都沒有辦法上達所以如果你都已經做很多研究,是不是一個月之內可以給我這樣的計畫或者是召集我們這些專家學者跟你們來看一下好,謝謝委員"},{"start":16252.371,"end":16252.811,"text":"主委請回陳冠廷委員質詢"},{"start":16277.034,"end":16295.579,"text":"蔣委員好主委好主委辛苦了那主委您應該知道說我們這個賴慶德總統的幾個重要的產業的發展他的白皮書裡面都有提到次世代的通訊那特別說要強化這個權欲通訊網路的韌性這個部分主委應該清楚嗎是其中有包含"},{"start":16297.139,"end":16307.327,"text":"也不限於六級關鍵技術的研發：然後還有通訊衛星的：還有地面設施：還有低軌衛星等等 這個都是在國歌會的這個管轄範圍嗎"},{"start":16315.786,"end":16328.26,"text":"臺灣目前不是國際電信聯盟的成員我想請教這對我們自主發展的第一軌道衛星的相關通訊計畫還有它的發射階段可能造成的困難我可不可以打算如何克服"},{"start":16329.542,"end":16341.737,"text":"你說通信衛星的部分還有這個火箭發射嗎我說在我們不是國際電信聯盟的成員會不會造成這些方面的影響那打算要怎麼樣克服"},{"start":16344.008,"end":16364.216,"text":"不會因為我們這整個通訊產業台灣從以前這個無線通訊從2G開始我們都有一直不斷的在參與這些通訊標準的制定的會議因為這個沒有牽涉到政治所以未來從現在5G一直到6G的這個討論我們還是會持續關注持續參加相關的這個會議"},{"start":16370.979,"end":16389.477,"text":"那國際電信聯盟的成員參加與否是不是成員不會影響到我國的太空產業的發展?不會影響因為他們一定是希望藉助台灣的這個硬體的實力來協助整個全世界相關產業的發展所以他們不會把台灣排除在外好的但是我們不是他的國際成員"},{"start":16390.658,"end":16414.09,"text":"所以是不是國際成員也不會被排除在沒有影響就對了沒有關係是好謝謝謝謝這個部分謝謝您的回應那第二個部分關於這個次世代通訊裡面國防部其實有成立一個國防創新小組那在他們的這個國防部的給我們的這個匯報裡面還有資訊裡面他說你有聽過這個國防創新小組嗎我先請教一下主委"},{"start":16415.356,"end":16435.914,"text":"講的是那個DIU對是是有有那他說他還會跟你們成立部會平台然後定期會議你們已經有開始這樣子的磋商了嗎目前有一個學演合作的這個機制有學演合作的機制對不對那所以說這樣的創新單位你們會跟他一起合作不會有跨部會對話的問題"},{"start":16438.308,"end":16457.682,"text":"目前已經有一個平台是由我跟紀政委共同主持所以我們在有7個大學有成立這個學院中心來協助國防部那邊提出來的一些發展的需求由學術界來進行這個研究目前是這個機制存在"},{"start":16458.502,"end":16476.773,"text":"我們是希望這個不可有不會的本會主義那既然國科學現在已經有這樣子的平台那我們這樣交叉比對後確實有那不是他們只有給我們的官方文章那我就很希望說這個是未來的重要項目因為美國的這個DIU它其實是有包含"},{"start":16477.293,"end":16477.473,"text":"提供訪問"},{"start":16492.777,"end":16507.589,"text":"所以我認為國防部不可以把它當成是國防部它跟國會之間的結合甚至是你們自己本身的參與度我也是希望能夠再加強我不希望它成為一個只是國防就講國防科技講科技它其實是兩個重要有重疊的部分"},{"start":16511.428,"end":16537.361,"text":"太空中心我們談一下剛才我記得陳立芬委員講到他們台南的部分那我們要講一下我們嘉義的部分在嘉義我們是由中科院主導的這個民雄的航太園區那當然雖然說中科院跟國防部的關係比較密切但是除了這個無人機的產業之外還有一個部分就是跟太空產業有相關的那太空產業還是一樣還是需要整合的測試功能"},{"start":16538.421,"end":16565.378,"text":"在這個由中科院主導的地方他們是有一些相關的一些設備比方說風動與動力的測試陣燄能量的這個相關的這種的基礎建設結構測試能量還有AI模擬算力中心但是那是在他的東側基地那當然這不是由你們的部會所主導的但是其實它裡面跟太空中心跟航太產業還是有關聯性的我想請教一下未來國科會有沒有辦法"},{"start":16566.198,"end":16566.798,"text":"會否有這樣的想法?"},{"start":16583.49,"end":16586.051,"text":"最後再補一句話不管是基礎建設還在仿商的階段"},{"start":16601.998,"end":16615.912,"text":"當然不是只有無人機的需求而已我們希望航太的產業還是能夠扮演一定的角色那航太它的這個太空的產業太空中心我們還是希望能夠積極的來去介入謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":16618.639,"end":16632.702,"text":"主委請回,謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢再來是邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員鄭正前委員請謝謝召委,我想要請一下吳主委吳主委請"},{"start":16649.167,"end":16676.328,"text":"政委員好吳主委好,因為已經到中午吃飯時間很久了我發現大家沒有休息所以我一定會很精簡而且不會拖時間那我想說第一個我想問一下因為我從媒體這邊看到說我們上半年營收非常的好三個科學園區那將近就是2.2兆嘛那你預估全年的部分會到達4.5兆你是用什麼樣的基礎覺得下半年會比上半年更好"},{"start":16677.068,"end":16692.009,"text":"因為半導體產業一般來講下半年的營收會比上半年高所以我大概就是根據這個合理的估計現在這個AI的需求還在成長當中所以我也做了這樣一個"},{"start":16694.172,"end":16717.986,"text":"只是預測而已我們看了科學領域這麼高的一個產值當中的時候半導體的部分佔的比例非常的高佔據非常高的一個比重我相信我這邊我就不講可是我在想說其實相關的產業這邊也一直提到一個狀態就是說在整個半導體產業當中的時候我們要建立一個半導體生態系裡面"},{"start":16719.227,"end":16733.918,"text":"可是我們科學園區都是這些台積電這些主要的廠商可是它的協力廠商進不了科學園區所以事實上以在新竹這個環境來講的時候就會有很多農地就會被用來當工廠使用"},{"start":16734.258,"end":16750.606,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":16750.706,"end":16751.907,"text":"主委回答一下"},{"start":16767.955,"end":16790.981,"text":"好,那個政委員這個建議其實是非常好啦那我們未來也是陸續在協助台積電的協力廠商包含他的供應鏈甚至他的客戶能夠在我們未來科學園區選擇新的這個發展的地區也能夠進駐到科學園區這是第一點第二點我們也鼓勵各縣市"},{"start":16791.581,"end":16791.621,"text":"謝謝主委"},{"start":16818.388,"end":16818.849,"text":"現在還沒有完全劃定出來"},{"start":16839.107,"end":16863.5,"text":"但是在桃竹苗這幾個縣市我們都會積極來配合地方政府有適當的這個場域來協助地方政府來發展依照產業的需求好那另外就是在這部分的時候因為你剛剛提到說今年整個我們科學園區產值可能會突破4.5兆那我想特別提到一個點就是有關於科學管理"},{"start":16864.821,"end":16864.981,"text":"主委"},{"start":16894.111,"end":16918.279,"text":"我先請竹科我們竹科管理局局長來回答一下委員好那因為我們雖然規定是千分之0.3但是也要看我們的那個營收因為我們最近開發營收都很高因為我們現在每一年都只有一半的一半不到我們現在去年都只有千分之0.06對但是我們有我們的那個成本"},{"start":16922.02,"end":16948.956,"text":"所以我們這幾年因為開發的關係我們也持續在借款所以我們除了這個正常的補助之外我們都透過一些專案性的那如果有特別的需要然後我們衡量以後有一些專案性的我們會來也一直在進行當中因為這部分的時候我在想說跟我們陳局長這邊的時候看是不是有可能提高一個金額因為4620萬已經很多年了一二十年都是這個數字"},{"start":16950.888,"end":16951.789,"text":"主委請回,謝謝鄭振淺委員,翁曉琳委員質詢"},{"start":16982.694,"end":16982.996,"text":"邀請吳主委"},{"start":16991.228,"end":17018.229,"text":"主委好您辛苦了我這次看到您的業務報告裡面最後一段裡面有特別提到國科會未來要將各學門的機制更加健全尤其是在學門召集人審查委員的臨選計畫審查機制等等這邊可能必須要做想要做一個經濟改善我想請教主委就是說您知道"},{"start":17018.969,"end":17031.842,"text":"以您現在擔任主委這段時間裡面大概為什麼會今天特別提到學門的問題是有發現這過程當中是有什麼值得改進的地方嗎?"},{"start":17033.364,"end":17057.901,"text":"我是因為這一次有聯署的議題在永續學門我是在想說國科會本身自己要健全我們自己的機制公開公正公平這樣的機制然後剛剛范召偉也提醒我在任何改變之前要請教專家各學門各領域的專家"},{"start":17063.525,"end":17065.727,"text":"您知道基本上國科會本身就有一個計畫審查機制及審查委員領選作業要點嗎?"},{"start":17081.963,"end":17093.511,"text":"您知道這個要點嗎?您知道這個要點裡面基本上他有講到說要怎麼樣去領選學門召集人、共同召集人跟副省委員他裡面有考慮到哪幾個因素,您知道嗎?有考慮到什麼?"},{"start":17096.212,"end":17123.889,"text":"必須要考慮到哪些因素啦?其實我的PVT上面有秀出來了對,基本上就是要考慮到學門的領域、地域、各公司力、機構及性別的衡評規定我不知道國科會內部自己過去有沒有做過這樣的一個統計分析到底我們現在的學門召集人大多數是來自於哪些學校然後性別比例是如何?"},{"start":17124.95,"end":17129.992,"text":"有沒有做過這樣子的一個評估?有做過這樣的統計嗎?應該是說我們每一年的學門召集人都有留意到這些性別的地域跟公私力機構的橫屏"},{"start":17142.042,"end":17147.166,"text":"好OK看起來你們可能並沒有做一個整體的統計來下一頁那我幫你們做了統計了我現在調查2016年到2023年國科會的學人以人設學門為例我們做了一個統計表但事實上因為我們在檢視國科會各學門的召集人的時候但發現確實有嚴重"},{"start":17169.241,"end":17192.023,"text":"的偏差的一個情況比如說我們以人文社會學門的召集人的來源機構為例大家可以看從這個圖表就可以看得很清楚最多的召集人就來自於臺灣大學中研院然後接下來師大政大成大等等以下而且他的佔的比率非常之高"},{"start":17193.342,"end":17216.479,"text":"在圖寫出一個什麼問題你們這邊有講說要兼顧到各學門然後公私立機構的這個衡評顯然是沒有好那接下來下一頁那我們再看到就是說在整個人文學門裡面有哪幾個學門又特別的嚴重法律學門幾乎所有的這個法律學門的召集人都是台大的教授所掌握那麼如果是歷史學門的話"},{"start":17222.119,"end":17223.709,"text":"全數都是中研院的學者"},{"start":17225.762,"end":17252.904,"text":"科學與多元族群學門則是由臺灣師範大學所掌握還有財塊等等這個部分的話我希望國科會能夠去做一個統計分析好嗎接下來再看下一頁然後我們如果說以地域來看會發現這些召集人都來自於北部的學校或研究機構在了75%東部到現在為止沒有出現半個學門召集人"},{"start":17254.346,"end":17281.188,"text":"這當然是以人設學門為例啦這個我相信在其他的工程學門也都是一樣的好來下一頁如果說以性別為例的話以性別做分析就可以知道在人門人設學門裡面的召集人當中女性大概只有三分之一三分之二都是男性教授或是男性的這個知名的學者為主在工程學門裡面的話召集人幾乎百分之百都是男生"},{"start":17282.751,"end":17287.197,"text":"這個部分的話其實可以看得出來我們雖然說國科會有這樣的一個省常委員臨選作業要點可是事實上在過去這些年來並沒有按照你們所講的這些要點裡面強調橫評原則去做"},{"start":17297.611,"end":17317.912,"text":"所以我本席在這裡提出來我希望國科會能夠提出一個完整的報告分析書那另外呢我也發現就說你們其實國科會也並沒有做好政府資訊公開我希望能夠未來將各個學門通過的補助的名單還有有多少深附案這些"},{"start":17319.534,"end":17320.694,"text":"徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈委員"},{"start":17349.817,"end":17367.355,"text":"蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員張家俊張家俊張家俊委員鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員高金素梅高金素梅高金素梅委員游浩游浩游浩委員"},{"start":17368.891,"end":17386.081,"text":"今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另有遊浩委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議作如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":17387.222,"end":17402.573,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關競速以書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝各位謝謝大家今天開學第一天比較辛苦了好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","委員發言時間":"08:31:19 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d":245.79,"text":"那麼如果是歷史學門的話全數都是中研院的學者"},{"start":247.844,"end":274.98,"text":"科學與多元族群學門則是由臺灣師範大學所掌握還有財快等等這個部分的話我希望國科會能夠去做一個統計分析好嗎接下來再看上一頁然後我們如果說以地域來看會發現這些召集人都來自於北部的學校或研究機構在了75%東部到現在為止沒有出現半個學門召集人"},{"start":276.448,"end":303.27,"text":"這當然是以人設學門為例啦這個我相信在其他的工程學門也都是一樣的好來下一頁如果說以性別為例的話以性別做分析就可以知道在人門人設學門裡面的召集人當中女性大概只有三分之一三分之二都是男性教授或是男性的這個知名的學者為主在工程學門裡面的話召集人幾乎百分之百都是男生"},{"start":304.833,"end":307.837,"text":"這個部分的話其實可以看得出來我們雖然說國科會有這樣的一個省常委員臨選作業要點可是事實上在過去這些年來並沒有按照你們所講的這些要點裡面強調橫評原則去做"},{"start":319.693,"end":339.351,"text":"所以我本席在這裡提出來我希望國科會能夠提出一個完整的報告分析書那另外呢我也發現就說你們其實國科會也並沒有做好政府資訊公開我希望能夠未來將各個學門通過的補助的名單還有有多少深附案"},{"start":340.592,"end":340.732,"text":"主委請回"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:14:19 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13:20:20","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"155033","gazette":{"lineno":1360,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（13時14分）召委好，有請吳主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：主委好，您辛苦了！我這次看到在你的業務報告中最後一段特別提到，國科會未來要讓各學門的機制更加健全，尤其是在學門召集人、審查委員遴選及計畫審查機制等等，想要做一個精進改善。我想請教主委，在你擔任主委的這段時間以來，為什麼會特別提出學門的問題，是否在過程中發現有什麼需要改進的地方？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為這次在永續學門有連署的議題，我就在想國科會本身要建全我們自己的機制，公開、公正、公平的機制。剛剛范召委也提醒我，在任何改變之前要請教專家、各學門各領域的專家，朝健康良善的機制運作，當然國科會永遠有進步的空間，所以我希望能夠再進步。"],["翁委員曉玲：我在此想要提醒主委，基本上，國科會本身就有一個計畫審查機制及審查委員遴選作業要點，你知道有這個要點嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我知道。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個要點基本上就有講到該如何遴選學門召集人、共同召集人及複審委員，其中有考慮到哪幾個因素，你知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有考慮到什麼？"],["翁委員曉玲：必須考慮到哪些因素？其實我已經在PPT上面秀出來了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是上面所講的。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，基本上就是要考慮到學門領域、地域、公私立機構及性別之衡平規定。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們都會遵守。"],["翁委員曉玲：國科會內部在過去有沒有做過這樣的統計分析，到底現在的學門召集人大多數是來自於哪些學校？性別比例是如何？有沒有做過這樣的評估？有做過這樣的統計嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有沒有做統計？對不起！我看看我們綜規處有沒有？"],["彭處長麗春：應該是說我們每一年的學門召集人都有留意到地域、性別及公私立機構的衡平。"],["翁委員曉玲：看起來你們可能並沒有做一個整體的統計。"],["吳主任委員誠文：後續我們會注意。"],["翁委員曉玲：我幫你們做了統計，從2016年到2023年以國科會的人社學門為例，我們做了一個統計表。事實上，在我們檢視國科會各學門的召集人時發現確實有嚴重偏差的情況，譬如以人文社會學門召集人的來源機構為例，大家從這個圖表可以看得很清楚，最多的召集人就是來自於臺灣大學、中研院，接下來是師大、政大、成大等等，而且它占的比例非常之高，這個凸顯出什麼問題？你們說要兼顧到各學門在公私立機構的衡平，顯然是沒有！","我們再來看整個人文學門中有哪幾個學門又特別的嚴重？法律學門，幾乎所有法律學門的召集人都是由臺大的教授掌握；如果是歷史學門的話，全數都是中研院的學者；科教及多元族群學門則是由臺灣師範大學所掌握；另外還有財會等等。關於這個部分，我希望國科會能夠去做一個統計分析，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["翁委員曉玲：如果以地域來看就會發現這些召集人都是來自於北部的學校或研究機構，占了75%，東部到現在為止，沒有出現半個學門召集人。這些都是以人社學門為例，但我相信在其他工程學門也都是一樣的狀況。如果是以性別為例，以性別作分析就可以知道，在人社學門的召集人當中，女性大概只有三分之一，三分之二都是男性教授或是男性知名學者為主，在工程學門中的召集人幾乎百分之百都是男生。這個部分其實可以看得出來，雖然國科會有這樣一個審查委員遴選作業要點，事實上，在過去這些年來並沒有按照你們這個要點所強調的衡平原則去做，所以本席在這裡提出，希望國科會能夠提出一個完整的報告分析書。另外，我也發現國科會並沒有做好政府資訊公開，我希望未來各個學門通過的補助名單以及有多少申覆案等相關資訊都能夠公開揭露，因為本席很在乎國科會的獎補助計畫是否會造成學校、學界有學閥的問題……"],["主席：翁委員，超過30秒了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，我們會努力。"],["翁委員曉玲：這部分請記得再提供書面資料給本席，謝謝。"],["主席：後續再向翁委員提出口頭報告或提供書面資料，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：主委請回，謝謝翁曉玲委員。","請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","請游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，另有游顥委員提出書面質詢。關於今天會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢或相關資料，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。對於委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:05:27","end_time":"2024-09-30T13:14:13+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155032","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","duration":327,"start_time":"2024-09-30T13:08:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b5e86318e9874110fd315587f90474d38f8d6167d2066327ee845366a77bfd4645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.5578437500000004,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.034718750000003,"end":31.266593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.300343750000003,"end":49.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.96409375,"end":86.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.24971875,"end":85.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.13971875,"end":104.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.07784375,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.02471875,"end":121.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.83471875000001,"end":121.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.86846875,"end":121.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.88534375,"end":121.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.32409375,"end":122.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.34096875,"end":172.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.31221875,"end":172.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.69596875000002,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.20159375,"end":177.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.03909375,"end":206.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.01784375000003,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.54096875000002,"end":193.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.70784375000002,"end":205.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.44596875000002,"end":206.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.51346875000002,"end":206.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.53034375000001,"end":218.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.96721875,"end":218.98409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.05159375000002,"end":246.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.74346875,"end":247.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.38034375,"end":252.31221875000003},{"speaker"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那個政府委員這個建議其實是非常好啦那我們未來也是陸續在協助台積電的協力廠商包含他的供應鏈甚至他的客戶能夠在我們未來科學園區選擇新的這個發展的地區也能夠進駐到科學園區這是第一點第二點我們也鼓勵各縣市"},{"start":146.001,"end":146.041,"text":"謝謝主委"},{"start":172.799,"end":173.279,"text":"現在還沒有完全劃定出來"},{"start":193.526,"end":217.9,"text":"但是在桃竹苗這幾個縣市我們都會積極來配合地方政府有適當的這個場域來協助地方政府來發展依照產業的需求好那另外就是在這部分的時候因為你剛剛提到說今年整個我們科學園區產值可能會突破4.5兆那我想特別提到一個點就是有關於就是科學管理"},{"start":219.241,"end":219.401,"text":"主委"},{"start":248.53,"end":275.7,"text":"我先請竹科我們竹科管理局局長來回答一下委員好因為我們雖然規定是千分之0.3但是也要看我們的那個營收因為我們最近開發營收都很高因為我們現在每一年都只有一半的一半不到我們現在去年都只有千分之0.06對但是我們有我們的那個成本"},{"start":276.22,"end":305.043,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":305.307,"end":305.907,"text":"主委請回,謝謝鄭正賢委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:08:46 - 13:14:13","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"155032","gazette":{"lineno":1330,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（13時8分）謝謝召委，我想請一下吳主委。"],["主席：吳主委請。"],["吳主任委員誠文：鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：吳主委好。現在已經超過中午吃飯時間很久了，我發現大家都沒有休息，所以我接下來的發言一定會很精簡，而且不會拖時間。","第一個，我從媒體報導看到我們上半年3個科學園區的營收非常好，將近2.2兆元，而且你預估全年的部分會達到4.5兆元，請問你是基於什麼樣的基礎認為下半年會比上半年更好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：一般來講，半導體產業下半年的營收會比上半年高，我大概就是根據這點去做合理的估計，而且現在AI的需求還在成長當中，所以我只是做了這樣的預測而已。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們看到在科學園區這麼高的產值中，半導體的部分所占的比例非常高、占了非常非常高的比重，關於詳細的內容，我在這邊就不講了。但是在相關產業中也提到一個狀態，針對整個半導體產業，我們要建立一個半導體生態系，但是在我們的科學園區都是台積電這些主要的產商，協力廠商卻都進不了科學園區。事實上，以新竹的環境來講，有很多農地被用來當作工廠使用，也造成地方的生態相關問題。針對這個部分，我們的科學園區是否有因應的方式，成立什麼樣的一個配套園區？或是與經濟部進行什麼樣的協作，讓整個半導體生態系真的是半導體生態系，而不是只有台積電一家在那邊？就像現在的寶山一期、寶山二期，一百多公頃全部都給台積電，但是它的協力廠商卻沒有空間，可以請主委回答一下嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：鄭委員的建議其實是非常好，我們未來也會陸續協助台積電的協力廠商，包含它的供應鏈，甚至是它的客戶，未來也能夠進駐到新選址發展的科學園區，這是第一點。","第二點，我們也鼓勵各縣市，在發展科學園區的需求之下，不要只照顧到半導體的晶圓廠製造端，也能夠適度的提供地方政府所規劃的產業園區讓台積電的協力廠商進駐，這樣對於整個產業發展、對於地方發展都有雙重的好處，我們的確是鼓勵這樣。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝主委。因為這個部分是完善整個半導體生態系很重要的一環……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在整個桃竹苗大矽谷計畫中，針對科學園區的部分是預計要擴大7個科學園區的範圍，請問這7個科學園區的範圍已經劃定出來了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在還沒有完全劃定出來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：還沒有劃定出來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是在桃竹苗這幾個縣市，我們都會積極配合地方政府，有適當的場域協助地方政府依照產業的需求進行發展。"],["鄭委員正鈐：另外，因為你提到今年科學園區的產值可能會突破4.5兆元，我想特別提到一個點，關於科學園區管理局補助地方政府建設經費的問題，這個問題講了很久。新竹市其實是科學園區一開始就落腳的地方，你之前任職於清大，對這邊肯定也很熟。我們新竹市長期都只得到4,620萬元的補助經費，很多年都是這樣子，但是我們的產值不斷的提升，按照規定，事實上，在千分之零點三都可以，我們是不是有可能提高這個部分，主委？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我先請竹科管理局的局長來回答。"],["陳局長宗權：委員好。我們雖然是規定千分之零點三，但是也要看我們的營收，因為最近幾年的開發……"],["鄭委員正鈐：其實都很高，因為我們現在每一年都只有一半的一半不到喔！去年就只有千分之零點零六啊！"],["陳局長宗權：對，但是我們有我們的成本，這幾年因為開發的關係，我們也是持續在借款。除了正常的補助之外，我們也透過一些專案性的方式，如果有特別的需要，經過我們的衡量之後，有一些專案性的也一直在進行當中。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委，這個部分是不是有可能請陳局長提高金額？因為4,620萬元已經行之多年，一、二十年都是這個數字，但是竹科不斷的成長，我們希望地方的回饋也能夠成長。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們再研議一下，因為現在的開發成本非常高，我們的園區作業基金其實要借很多錢。"],["鄭委員正鈐：最後，我希望你們能將竹科周邊的用電狀態提供給本席一份書面資料，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：主委請回，謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:06:01","end_time":"2024-09-30T13:08:22+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155031","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","duration":361,"start_time":"2024-09-30T13:02:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bf82d77cebbe7ec7ad315587f90474d38f8d6167d2066327ec9ffc3ff12dce56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.94096875,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.05034375,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.61909375,"end":47.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.681593750000005,"end":49.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.47471875,"end":66.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.99096875000001,"end":68.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.28596875000001,"end":70.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.83846875,"end":74.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.80409375,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.03096875,"end":81.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.61721875,"end":82.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.63409375,"end":83.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.71409375,"end":110.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.32596875,"end":110.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.39346875000001,"end":110.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.66346875,"end":110.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.86596875000001,"end":110.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.93346875,"end":117.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.67534375000001,"end":116.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.27846875,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.96846875,"end":130.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.01909375,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.03596875,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.10346875000002,"end":130.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.33971875,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.02721875,"end":134.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.62596875,"end":150.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.28159375,"end":154.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.07846875,"end":157.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.45784375000002,"end":158.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.72346875000002,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168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謝謝這個部分謝謝您的回應那第二個部分關於這個次世代通訊裡面國防部其實有成立一個國防創新小組那在他們的這個國防部的給我們的這個匯報裡面還有資訊裡面他說你有聽過這個國防創新小組嗎我先請教一下主委講的是那個DIU對是是有有那他說他還會跟你們成立部會平台然後定期會議你們已經有開始這樣子的磋商了嗎"},{"start":165.392,"end":175.68,"text":"目前有一個學研合作的這個機制有學研合作的機制對不對那所以說這樣的創新單位你們會跟他一起合作不會有跨部會對話的問題"},{"start":178.086,"end":197.46,"text":"目前已經有一個平台是由我跟紀政委共同主持所以我們在有7個大學有成立這個學院中心來協助國防部那邊提出來的一些發展的需求由學術界來進行這個研究目前是這個機制存在"},{"start":198.28,"end":216.554,"text":"我們是希望這個不可有不會的本會主義那既然國會現在已經有這樣子的平台那我們這樣交叉比對後確實有那不是他們只有給我們的官方文章那我就很希望說這個是未來的重要項目因為美國的這個DIU它其實是有包含"},{"start":217.034,"end":217.214,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":232.555,"end":247.623,"text":"所以我認為國防部不可以把它當成是國防部它跟國會之間的結合甚至是你們自己本身的參與度我也是希望能夠再加強我不希望它成為一個只是國防就講國防科技講科技它其實是兩個重要有重疊的部分"},{"start":251.206,"end":277.139,"text":"太空中心我們談一下剛才我記得陳立芬委員講到他們台南的部分那我們要講一下我們嘉義的部分在嘉義我們是由中科院主導的這個民雄的航太園區那當然雖然說中科院跟國防部的關係比較密切但是除了這個無人機的產業之外還有一個部分就是跟太空產業有相關的那太空產業還是一樣還是需要整合的測試功能"},{"start":278.199,"end":305.156,"text":"在這個由中科院主導的地方他們是有一些相關的一些設備比方說風動與動力的測試陣燄能量的這個相關的這用的基礎建設結構測試能量還有AI模擬算力中心但是那是在他的東側基地那當然這不是由你們的部會所主導的但是其實它裡面跟太空中心跟航太產業還是有關聯性的我想請教一下未來國科會有沒有辦法"},{"start":305.896,"end":306.016,"text":"提供討論"},{"start":323.268,"end":323.408,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":341.232,"end":341.732,"text":"主委請回謝謝陳冠廷"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:02:21 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13:08:22","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"155031","gazette":{"lineno":1296,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時2分）我們是不是麻煩主委？"],["主席：好，有請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委好。主委，辛苦了！主委，你應該知道賴清德總統在幾個重要產業的發展白皮書中都有提到次世代通訊，特別說要強化全域通訊網路韌性，關於這個部分，主委應該清楚吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：其中包含6G關鍵技術研發、通訊衛星及地面設施、低軌衛星等等，這些都是屬於國科會的管轄範圍嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：其中有一個對我們而言是比較重要的國際政治問題，因為臺灣目前不是國際電信聯盟的成員，所以我想請教主委，這個對於我們自主發展的低軌道衛星相關通訊計畫以及它在發射階段可能造成的困難，國科會打算如何克服？"],["吳主任委員誠文：你是說通訊衛星的部分以及火箭發射嗎？"],["陳委員冠廷：我說因為我們不是國際電信聯盟的成員，是否會造成這方面的影響？打算要怎麼樣克服？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會，就整個通訊產業而言，臺灣從以前無線通訊開始、從2G開始就一直不斷的參與這些通訊標準制定的會議，因為這個沒有牽連到政治，因此未來從現在的5G一直到6G的討論，我們還是會持續關注、持續參加相關的會議。"],["陳委員冠廷：國際電信聯盟的參加與否、或者是不是成員，都不會影響到我國太空產業的發展？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會影響，因為他們一定是希望借助臺灣的硬體實力，協助全世界相關產業的發展，所以他們不會把臺灣排除在外。"],["陳委員冠廷：好的，無論我們是不是它的成員，也不會被排除在外、也不會有影響？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，沒有關係。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝你針對這個部分的回應。","第二個部分，關於次世代通訊，國防部其實成立了一個國防創新小組，根據國防部給我們的彙報及資訊，先請教主委，你聽過這個國防創新小組嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：你講的是DIU嗎？"],["陳委員冠廷：對。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：他們說會與你們成立部會平台並召開定期會議，所以你們已經開始進行磋商了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前有一個學研合作的機制。"],["陳委員冠廷：有學研合作的機制？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以你們會與這個創新單位一起合作，不會有跨部會對話的問題？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前已經有一個平台，由我與季政委共同主持，而且有7個大學成立學研中心，協助國防部那邊提出的發展需求，並由學術界進行研究，目前是這個機制存在。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們是希望不可以有部會的本位主義，既然國科會現在已經有這樣的平台，經由我們的交叉比對後發現確實是有，並不是他們交給我們的官方文章，因此我會希望這個是未來的重要項目。美國的DIU其實是由許多民間大型企業的人員擔任重要的領導人物，甚至未來在這個DIU的發展過程中，商業、科技界、科學界、甚至科學家都會是其中的成員，所以我認為國防部不可以把它當成是國防部的，與國科會之間的結合，甚至是你們本身的參與度，希望都能夠再加強，而不是讓它成為一個國防就講國防、科技就講科技，其實它是兩個重要且重疊的部分。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們認同，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：再來談一下太空中心，剛才陳亭妃委員講到臺南的部分，我們也來講一下嘉義的部分。在嘉義有中科院主導的民雄航太園區，雖然中科院與國防部的關係比較密切，但是除了無人機的產業之外，還有一個是與太空產業相關的部分，同樣是需要整合的測試功能。在由中科院主導的地方，他們是有一些相關的設備，譬如風洞與動力的測試正面能量的相關基礎建設，結構測試能量以及AI模擬算力中心，但是這些都是在它的東側基地，也不是由你們的部會所主導，但是它裡面與太空中心、與航太產業還是有關聯性。請教一下，未來國科會有沒有辦法扮演更積極的角色，吸引其他太空產業的產商進駐？你們會不會有這樣的想法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會盡力協助，特別是在嘉義，其實在那邊也是有中油的研究基地，他們與太空中心也有合作，關於太空實驗酬載的那些材料都有相當程度的進展，因此，只要有機會，我們一定會協助。"],["陳委員冠廷：最後再補一句話，主委，現在基礎建設都還是在訪商的階段，當然不是只有無人機的需求而已，我們希望航太產業還是能夠扮演一定的角色，對於航太的太空產業、太空中心，我們還是希望能夠積極的來去介入，謝謝！"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：主委請回，謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢。","請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:05:40","end_time":"2024-09-30T13:01:35+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155029","委員名稱":"羅智強","duration":340,"start_time":"2024-09-30T12:55:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b69eeeb5a5dad4a607b6cd6776ddc26aef8d6167d2066327eac97dd6a17630d805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3553437500000003,"end":5.5153437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.56596875,"end":7.1353437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.691593750000003,"end":12.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.94034375,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.594093750000003,"end":18.137843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.59346875,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.778468750000002,"end":32.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.73471875,"end":37.830968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.96596875,"end":46.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.213468750000004,"end":53.507843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.50346875,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.13846875,"end":74.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.38221875,"end":74.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.56784375000001,"end":78.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.66846875,"end":96.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.12971875000001,"end":127.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.34846875,"end":130.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.18784375,"end":133.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.95096875000002,"end":136.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.95471875,"end":139.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.53659375,"end":168.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.43909375,"end":175.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.76784375,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.23596875,"end":173.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.40034375000002,"end":182.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.77846875,"end":186.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.47846875000002,"end":201.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.56471875000003,"end":203.86409375000002},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對不對所以他現在觀光的困境跟所謂的現在花蓮的這個道路經過前面的地震還有一些天災所造成的一些破壞那都有很直接的關係嘛 對不對 主委"},{"start":68.171,"end":96.502,"text":"沒有錯因為地質的關係所以最近幾年內我想尤其是那一段是很難有穩定的地質就從德到何人這一段所以我真的還是希望我們政府能夠因為花蓮也是我們的就是一部分嘛對不對所以希望政府在這一部分要多加一點努力因為我父親其實我聽到給花蓮人一條安全回家我從小就聽到大的為什麼因為我父親就是修路的工人"},{"start":97.242,"end":118.894,"text":"所以每次路的攤房他以前在花蓮的時候他就要出去負責修道路甚至還有看到他同僚就因此這個在工程當中往生的都有所以這個奮鬥他不是今天一天兩天他是一直持續下去希望我們的政府能夠對花蓮的人民能夠多柔軟一點那我想請教你下一個問題就是說"},{"start":120.635,"end":136.221,"text":"我想請教我們主委你知道臺灣一年溫室氣體淨排放量大概是多少嗎這部分我沒有數據兩億七千多萬二氧化碳當量那公共工程排碳量大概佔多少"},{"start":136.96,"end":147.564,"text":"公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程"},{"start":158.288,"end":182.063,"text":"公共工程總排總碳排放量的17.2%所以政府主導的公共工程其實在臺灣也算是排碳的大戶嘛對不對這裡面主要是原料就是水泥啊鋼筋啊黑泥土等等那我想請教主委我想請教你就是在我們2030年的減碳目標是減量多少是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":187.543,"end":199.947,"text":"主委這個數字還是要掌握一下我直接跟您說國發會在2022年提出2030年國家制定貢獻減排目標是2005年基期的24%正負1這個您知道嗎"},{"start":204.762,"end":227.716,"text":"這個是國發會定定的戰略這個戰略不是只是國發會的戰略是政府總體戰略工程會我覺得可能也要努力一下我想請教一下工程會今年5月有發函給15個中央單位要求各單位提供公共工程減碳目標辦理情形目前有哪幾個單位還沒有明確定定減碳目標"},{"start":232.259,"end":259.145,"text":"我這邊掌握到訊息是這樣我覺得主委這邊可能要再多掌握一下有8個部會還沒有明確的訂定包括教育部、文化部、法務部、衛福部、課委會、海委會、原委會、退府會那麼想請教一下就是說我們如果說這個部分請主委再繼續努力幫大家再追蹤一下我們就是要訂定排碳指引所以希望明年能夠完成"},{"start":260.068,"end":282.857,"text":"對希望就是催促我們政府趕快把目標定出來那內政部跟這個交通部也都還沒有完成設定的目標嘛但是內政部跟交通部都是我們算是公共工程的大戶吧對不對所以工程會這邊希望能夠好好追蹤進度啦除了初步目標以外的話我建議就是工程會也要訂定跟國發會2030年的目標一樣減碳量要達到24%正負1"},{"start":288.979,"end":291.888,"text":"做得到嗎?主委就公共工程的部分"},{"start":293.393,"end":320.807,"text":"那我們全力來降低公共工程的進步主委我跟你講我剛剛問國科會就是我們的AI之島我們的排行一直掉我們的國科會的主委就很大方告訴我說他說他4年內賴總統卸任之前拼到10名內我今天想要聽到的是你在2030保證正負24%正負1可不可以國發會訂定的目標工程會一定要遵循希望你做到就是公共工程的部分能夠"},{"start":322.369,"end":322.769,"text":"羅智強委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:55:55 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13:01:35","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155029","gazette":{"lineno":916,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時55分）主席，有請陳金德主委。"],["主席：請陳金德主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：主委好，給花蓮人一條安全回家的路、給臺灣人一條安全旅行的路！剛才看到傅崐萁委員與王鴻薇委員都關心花蓮現在不管是交通乃至於觀光的狀況，我也聽到主委很多回答。我先跟主委說，其實看到花蓮現在的情形，我自己心裡是滿沉重的，因為我也是花蓮出生的小孩，尤其安全回家的路跟所謂安全旅行的路是同樣的，對不對？他們現在觀光的困境，跟花蓮道路經過前面的地震還有一些天災所造成的破壞都有很直接的關係嘛！對不對，主委？"],["陳主任委員金德：沒有錯，因為地質的關係啦！所以最近幾年內，尤其是那一段，我想很難有穩定的地質啦！也就是崇德到和仁這一段。"],["羅委員智強：我真的還是希望政府能夠處理。因為花蓮也是我們的一部分嘛！對不對？所以也希望政府在這部分要多加點努力。其實我對於「給花蓮人一條安全回家的路」是從小聽到大，為什麼？因為我父親就是修路的工人，他以前在花蓮的時候，每次路坍方，他就要出去負責修道路，甚至看到他的同僚就因此在工程當中往生的都有。所以這場奮鬥不是今天一天、兩天，而是一直持續下去，我希望我們的政府對於花蓮的人民能夠多柔軟一點。","我想請教您下一個問題，主委知道臺灣一年溫室氣體淨排放量大概是多少嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這部分我沒有數據。"],["羅委員智強：兩億七千多萬二氧化碳當量啦！那公共工程的排碳量大概占多少？"],["陳主任委員金德：公共工程部分占百分之九點多啦！"],["羅委員智強：將近一成嘛！大概是2,690萬噸啦！","根據一些統計，公共工程也是臺灣水泥跟混凝土最大的買家，一年混凝土採購量高達4,319萬公噸，占公共工程總碳排放量的17.2%，所以政府主導的公共工程其實在臺灣也算是排碳的大戶，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：這裡面主要是來自原料，就是水泥、鋼筋、混凝土等等。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：這些……"],["羅委員智強：那我想請教主委，2030年的減碳目標是減量多少？是多少，您知道嗎？主委，這個數字還是要掌握一下，我直接跟您說，國發會在2022年提出2030年國家自定貢獻減排目標，是2005年基期的24%正負1%，這個您知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這是國發會訂定的戰略啦！"],["羅委員智強：對喔！但這個戰略不只是國發會，而是政府的總體戰略嘛！我覺得工程會可能也要努力一下。","我想請教一下，工程會今年5月發函給15個中央單位，要求各單位提供公共工程減碳目標辦理情形。目前有哪幾個單位還沒有明確訂定減碳目標？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們……"],["羅委員智強：我這邊掌握到的訊息是這樣，我覺得主委這邊可能要再多掌握一下，有8個部會還沒有明確地訂定，包括教育部、文化部、法務部、衛福部、客委會、海委會、原委會、退輔會。那麼我想請教一下，這部分能不能請主委繼續努力，再幫大家追蹤一下？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們正在訂定排碳指引，希望明年能夠完成。"],["羅委員智強：對，我就是希望催促政府趕快把目標訂出來。","內政部和交通部也都還沒有完成設定的目標，但是內政部跟交通部都算是公共工程的大戶吧！對不對？所以我希望工程會這邊能夠好好追蹤進度啦！除了初步目標以外，我建議工程會也要訂定跟國發會一樣的目標，2030年減碳量要達到24%正負1%，做得到嗎，主委？"],["陳主任委員金德：就公共工程的部分？"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們全力降低公共工程的淨排放……"],["羅委員智強：主委，我跟你講，我剛剛問了國科會，我們的AI之島排行一直掉，國科會主委就很大方地告訴我，他要在四年內、賴總統卸任之前拚到十名內。那我今天想聽到的是你保證在2030年做到24%正負1%啦！可不可以？"],["陳主任委員金德：對於國發會訂定的目標，工程會一定要遵循嘛！"],["羅委員智強：好，希望你做到。"],["陳主任委員金德：就是公共工程的部分能夠達到24%。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：不過存量部分應該一直在變化，不同公共工程一直在新增，所以不是看存量降了多少，而是有相對基準來看。"],["羅委員智強：總而言之，要有目標，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["羅委員智強：OK，謝謝您。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。","接下來邀請邱志偉委員。邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在現場。","接下來邀請徐欣瑩委員。徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在場。","接下來邀請張嘉郡委員。張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在現場。","接下來邀請陳冠廷委員。陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員不在現場。","接下來邀請陳亭妃委員。陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員不在現場。","接下來邀請鍾佳濱委員。鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在現場。","接下來邀請鄭正鈐委員。鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在現場。","接下來邀請賴士葆委員。賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在現場。","接下來邀請高金素梅委員。高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在現場。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：","一、報告及詢答完畢。","二、委員鍾佳濱所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。","三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復的部分，請行政院公共工程委員會儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:04:46","end_time":"2024-09-30T12:55:45+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155028","委員名稱":"李柏毅","duration":286,"start_time":"2024-09-30T12:50:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bf993c76f65e97ac27b6cd6776ddc26aef8d6167d2066327e302d335acb661ae05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.7897187500000005,"end":6.764093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.21971875,"end":8.654093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.75409375,"end":39.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.58596875,"end":45.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.133468750000006,"end":48.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.71534375,"end":54.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.634093750000005,"end":60.578468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.696593750000005,"end":65.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.97846875,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.72846875,"end":79.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.76534375,"end":82.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.46534375,"end":83.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.05159375000001,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.75159375000001,"end":89.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.48534375,"end":92.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.34971875000001,"end":96.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.89346875000001,"end":106.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.00534375000001,"end":121.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.31596875000001,"end":122.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.37471875000001,"end":122.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.86409375000001,"end":122.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.91471875,"end":124.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.06221875000001,"end":165.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.20909375,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00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rt":124.991,"end":131.494,"text":"因為鐵路高架是大家所引頸期盼以宜蘭來看我們有目前23個平交道尚未這個拆除那這一段這個鐵路高架完成之後會減少9個平交道"},{"start":145.901,"end":159.999,"text":"這個可以讓民眾出入更安全而且行車更安全更方便也不用再浪費時間在那邊等待火車的時間所以我們還是很期待"},{"start":161.221,"end":180.4,"text":"現政府在此我也呼籲現政府應該是要來重視這個問題切勿這個出爾反爾因為從過去到現在現政府講的這個說辭有一點反覆那這個會影響到的是人民直接的權益所以我也希望說在"},{"start":180.88,"end":207.914,"text":"我們中央願意支持配合之下那個宜蘭縣政府應該也要有積極的作為這個我要拜託主委就是說我們後續的這個督工方面要拜託我們公共工程委員會及相關部會對於這個工程的這個推動能夠我們這個來掌握我們也會跟宜蘭縣政府再進一步溝通是好謝謝主委那另外就是針對這個義淹水地區那也特別感謝政委這個協調跟溝通"},{"start":210.855,"end":235.174,"text":"對於這個宜蘭縣我們大家所關心的這個五節防潮閘門還有這個圓山七賢的這個西周排水湊水站的相關工程那我們可以預先來匡列預算讓這個附近的住戶跟民眾可以更加放心我們看到今天颱風又要進來那我相信這附近的民眾真的說了一個屁屁話"},{"start":235.954,"end":259.111,"text":"那未來我相信這些工程如果能夠如期來推動的話對於住戶的這個居住安全一定有這個適當的這個提升那我也在此也是拜託這個政委就針對這個部分後續的相關工程也是要請我們相關部位一定要對於這個期程的安排一定要落實然後如期來動工如期來完工"},{"start":259.511,"end":268.9,"text":"好 這個可以那另外還有一個工程就是我們這個東山的這個宜東橋改建那宜東橋因為在這個1980年的6月竣工到現在已經歷經40多年了那這個橋樑的部分他這個橋體老舊歸列而且他的這個"},{"start":279.651,"end":279.671,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":299.745,"end":300.065,"text":"陳俊宇委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:45:23 - 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陳主委"},{"start":23.257,"end":47.488,"text":"本來定了要去花蓮因為要支持花蓮的觀光可是颱風一來最後還是必須忍痛的割愛所以也確實我覺得在我們花東地區的現在的交通的狀況已經變成迫在眉睫的事情所以也請主委因為我看你在這個我們國土法裡面你也有很多的這個建議更對其他的部會"},{"start":53.872,"end":68.726,"text":"請發揮協調或體察民意的精神趕快反應另外我要跟主委請教的是在上個會期我曾經針對警政署"},{"start":74.591,"end":93.119,"text":"警用的防彈衣的採購採購下來大概有四分之一不堪使用必須要退回給廠商請他重新的再補正結果這個警用的背心廠商事實上從102年開始他陸陸續續因為他的採購劣跡斑斑"},{"start":102.543,"end":128.523,"text":"被列為黑名單的次數達7次之多但是他照樣他一旦解除黑名單之後他照樣可以去投標所以這個廠商包括他的兒子也成立一家廠商一直都常常的來標我們的僅用防彈背心然後每次都被踢爆之後然後他再來做補正"},{"start":130.184,"end":157.993,"text":"這樣的事情對於我們第一線的警察基層警察同仁情何以堪啊這個房貸背心是保命用的結果這樣的黑心廠商卻可以一而再再而三的去得標不但他去得標他兒子開的公司也去得標所以在這裡啊我要請我們公共工程委員會針對我們政府採購法必須去防堵這樣的弊端"},{"start":159.213,"end":176.363,"text":"主委你知道嗎我們去調查了因為呢我們到現在為止你雖然有拒絕往來名單可是即便他出包他過一段時間後也許他過一年過兩年甚至他找他的親戚再成立一家公司他照樣可以得標"},{"start":177.384,"end":196.611,"text":"我們現在有一些廠商被列為拒絕往來戶最高都超過60件有66件的64件的57件的他怕嗎他不怕因為等到他回來解除了他的這個黑名單限制之後他又是好漢一個繼續來投標"},{"start":199.332,"end":214.464,"text":"那所以我在這邊其實我已經提出修法我認為我們政府採購法裡面應該要有所謂的刪證條款也就是當你一而再再而三的被作為拒絕往來戶的時候你應該有一個懲罰性的條這個規定永久列為拒絕往來戶"},{"start":222.737,"end":230.859,"text":"這些廠商才會乖啊才會害怕啊你看連僅用的防彈背心他都可以這樣惡搞我告訴你啊我們去提出這樣的相關的問題的時候警察署竟然告訴我沒關係啦我們發現啦這麼多一千四百多片喔這些防彈背心這個凹陷板我們呢要求廠商完成回收"},{"start":249.002,"end":258.253,"text":"回收就好然後告訴你因為我們按照法裡面也沒有說永久性不准他再來標所以他還可以再來標所以主委可不可以請我們公共工程委員會認真的去思考檢討這個黑名單"},{"start":268.885,"end":292.885,"text":"可不可以不然的話這些黑名單一年三年之後他又來標了我可以告訴你喔如果你不改的話我就給你追蹤這些喔這種影響我們警察基層第一線生命的你再讓他標試試看所以主委可不可以我們工程委員會正本清源之道從政府採購法裡面去修法"},{"start":294.371,"end":317.529,"text":"就在現有的法令裡面我們會就針對這個防彈背信這些案除了停權者之外已經有違法判刑的這些個人或他相關的公司我們會專案去清查提醒各主辦機關你這樣個案那這是被我抓出來沒被我抓出來的就是這些共同的名稱"},{"start":318.49,"end":319.07,"text":"對,我現在就是請你們能夠檢討修法"},{"start":334.218,"end":350.445,"text":"好這個修法我們來研究好不好來檢討你可以做一個門檻嗎那種惡性重大的不要再讓他有這種僥倖的機會還有其他也似乎也應該要有一些修正的必要我們一併來討論絕對不是只有警用背心還有好多其他的"},{"start":350.765,"end":350.925,"text":"王鴻薇"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:39:03 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地方政府已經詢問公共工程委員會 到現在 哇 不得了 兩個月啦 工程會還沒有回文吶主委啊 本期有打電話給你嘛 我們現在工程會到底怎麼回事 我們這個輪子是鬆掉了嗎"},{"start":169.043,"end":182.41,"text":"報告委員我去查了就是全差重建到底是都更或違老或者是說不參加都更違老這部分內政部有簽一個案在奉核"},{"start":183.769,"end":187.591,"text":"黃丹 內政補強 拆掉重建才有內政部簽合到行政院的文"},{"start":205.083,"end":233.93,"text":"補助八成五比照耐震補強黃單會有部分的紅單他要補強的八成五這個八成五的部分現在到底是不是用採購法105條所以請這是兩件事情紅單跟黃單是不一樣的這個當天有去一個案有一個婦兒是住宅有提出一個方法是可以"},{"start":235.475,"end":236.656,"text":"主委已經來2個月的文了齁"},{"start":257.54,"end":257.64,"text":"對於這個勞動部"},{"start":280.229,"end":304.835,"text":"因為我們現在住房大概只剩下百分之這個暑假剩下百分之五這個系統性的風暴會發生到底銀行的這些這些觀光業者到底銀行貸款要不要繳到底員工還要不要續聘這都很嚴重的問題那當時陳建仁院長跟吳哲成主委都宣布這個比照COVID-19期間讓員工能夠能夠重點進修"},{"start":308.51,"end":334.213,"text":"但是呢 當時是基本工資的救助現在呢 就又打折這個不能請工程會追一下好不好 勞動部不能違反整個院裡的基本原則好不好 讓這些員工能夠藉由充電的方式至少繼續在崗位上在整個國家還沒有讓花蓮有回復安全回家路之前"},{"start":335.145,"end":335.645,"text":"貴德隧道的北口"},{"start":368.131,"end":371.013,"text":"我要跟主委商量一下這是今年第9次 華聯的孤島 第9次"},{"start":392.065,"end":421.014,"text":"花蓮縣政府的副縣長今天禮拜一上班日早上搭台鐵8點鐘接近要到花蓮結果鐵路又停下來請所有的人要掉頭再搭車回台北然後坐高鐵到高雄然後再搭台鐵到花蓮大概今天到花蓮已經晚上了這是今天早上會發生的事情"},{"start":422.691,"end":436.296,"text":"但行政院到底有沒有去把整個鐵公路要怎麼樣能夠安全現在國內旅行社已經沒有排花蓮的國旅了因為到了花蓮不曉得能不能回得來我們真的不是一索皮牙"},{"start":441.274,"end":461.941,"text":"我跟委員報告,我也是大十二了,所以這個是感同身受那目前我的想法是說,盡快讓蘇花案這三段趕快完成那趕快完成之後呢,就取代這個蘇花T就原台九線,蘇花改,就變成蘇花公路"},{"start":462.541,"end":466.325,"text":"蘇花古道,日據時代叫臨海道路,我們現在花蓮來走一兩百年前的路,所以謝謝主委"},{"start":485.922,"end":514.782,"text":"河仁到崇德要評估改道就是要用隧道來取代現在河仁到崇德段的鐵道主委這段給你說明一下在7月多李孟元部長跟總統院長都已經來過華麗討論過相關的事情你要改道要打隧道那又是若干若干若干很多年以後的事情這段時間所有的產業都活不下去"},{"start":516.155,"end":516.555,"text":"提出報告高價化"},{"start":543.527,"end":569.828,"text":"何人跟崇德高價化的部分現在都已經在做研究報告年底會出來所以拜託主委我們同班同學拜託跟上進度一下啦好不好不然地方人很難生活一個公文發給工程會兩個月沒有回文他不曉得怎麼做我們來改進好不好拜託主委好不好謝謝謝謝傅坤熙委員"},{"start":574.456,"end":574.974,"text":"接下來要"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:29:20 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feeling齁現在公共兩內齁我們來看一下齁下一張我們來看一下今天喔電價審議委員會要審電價"},{"start":150.94,"end":173.428,"text":"現在台電恐嚇全民準備工業用電要漲14%而我們看到今天因為談AI因為世界大廠的計算中心要在台灣設計算中心比如說Google一年要耗掉8.4億度的電請問你啊你知道說"},{"start":180.021,"end":185.926,"text":"我們國科會底下有科學園區嘛一年用幾億度的電你知道嗎?科學園區 報告委員用電量多少你知道嗎?我看一下我們園區有沒有這個數字"},{"start":195.779,"end":212.309,"text":"我給你一個大約的數字一年台灣的用電量是2800億度台積電一加就超過10%所以你們大概幾百億度跟委員報告每一年112年總用電度是447億度幾百億度嘛幾百億度這個漲化算我們全年的總用電量2800億度"},{"start":224.909,"end":241.931,"text":"台積電一家超過10%所以台積電大概就300多億度左右所以以這樣來看的話這個對於科學園區當然用電的成本對他來講可能這些大倉可能不是很大的比例"},{"start":243.032,"end":258.693,"text":"我就請問你,國科會的主委,你是科學營區的主管的主管單位你會不會替這些的大廠、電子公司、高科技的,會不會擔心他們的用電成本?"},{"start":260.354,"end":283.94,"text":"我們在園區開發的時候對於這個電力的需求我們都會跟台電來商量協調那一定是確保電力的供應無虞的時候我們才會進行這個園區的開發跟建廠現在問題電解石的時期都沒考慮到計算中心啊沒考慮到AI啊現在AI的廠了現在都有現在都有科了"},{"start":286.915,"end":290.137,"text":"這部分要各方的評估這是我想我們經濟部會審慎的來應應這樣的這個建議台山 那個山木的山 木山"},{"start":313.69,"end":323.272,"text":"臺山投資國會﹚他的國外基金投資的事成﹚在竹科建立了無人機的反制系統你知道嗎?我請南科局長"},{"start":341.371,"end":369.257,"text":"我們是有建置那個無人機反制的系統沒有我只是講說竹科有建置的其他的園區要不要也建置我就這個答案好不好 具體都有喔那個超過30秒囉是不是竹委之後能夠跟我們賴委員溝通好嗎或者是好啦你不用那麼緊張嘛因為我們剛剛就只有超過30秒要溝通這樣這個無人機的反制系統不要只有在竹科啦其他的"},{"start":370.432,"end":373.541,"text":"謝謝賴士葆委員吳主委請回再來我們請陳廷飛委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:31:30 - 12:37:48","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"155019","gazette":{"lineno":1072,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時31分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請國科會吳主委。"],["主席：吳主委請。"],["吳主任委員誠文：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：主委你早。我記得上個禮拜我總質詢的時候，提到臺灣的AI準備度是亞洲四小龍最後一名，你很霸氣地、很快地講，說2年內要超過香港，3年內要超過南韓，請問你講這個話有什麼依據？你是隨便說說，還是有依據什麼？來，講一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：基於我們過去在雲端資料中心以及超級電腦的建置比較沒有投入那麼多，在未來幾年的建置我們已經編列預算，要逐年增加我們的算力，再加上現在新的方案，在加強AI應用的部分我們也提出來了，所以未來幾年臺灣的AI相關……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，你有沒有一個推動計畫？你剛才還回答一個委員說在任內、在未來的幾年要讓這個排名到前十名，講這個東西你總是要有一個計畫，一個根據嘛！不然就是隨便說說，gut feeling。"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，我們預算編列完，綱要計畫編列完……"],["賴委員士葆：預算編列，這樣就可以……"],["吳主任委員誠文：各部會就會有執行單位來提計畫。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有抓到我的重點，我的重點是說你憑什麼？你用什麼樣的niche說我可以到前十名？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是依照我們現在AI應用的普及度，現在還滿低的，但是我們未來4年推……"],["賴委員士葆：還是很虛啦！你的答案就是向大家講說我把錢編下去就一定會出來，成績出來就會變這樣，如果這麼簡單的話，錢一直投入就好了，撒錢就可以……"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然不是這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：聽不清楚啦！主委，這樣聽不清楚。好，說起來你是比較傾向於，我的感覺啦！這個叫gut feeling，隨便說說而已。","我們來看一下，今天電價審議委員會要審電價，現在台電等於是恐嚇全民，準備工業用電要漲14%，而我們看到，今天因為談AI，你們講AI啊！因為世界大廠要在臺灣設計算中心，比如說Google就估算一年要耗掉8.4億度的電，請問你，你知道我們國科會底下有科學園區嘛！一年用幾億度的電，你知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：科學園區，報告委員，我請……"],["賴委員士葆：用電量多少？你知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我看看我們園區有沒有這個數字。"],["賴委員士葆：我給你一個大約的數字，臺灣一年的用電量是2,800億度，台積電一家就超過10%，所以你們大概幾百億度啦！對不對？"],["陳副處長昭蓉：跟委員報告，112年總用電度是447億度。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！幾百億度，這個帳很好算，我們全年的總用電量2,800億度，台積電一家超過10%，所以台積電大概就是三百多億度左右。以這樣來看的話，對於科學園區，當然用電的成本對它來講，這些大廠可能不是很大的比例啊！我就請問你國科會的主委，你是科學園區的主管單位，你會不會替這一些大廠、高科技的電子公司，會不會擔心他們的用電成本？會不會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在園區開發的時候，對於電力的需求我們都會跟台電來商量協調，一定是在確保電力供應無虞的時候，我們才會進行園區的開發跟建廠。"],["賴委員士葆：現在的問題是上次設的時候就沒有考慮到計算中心啊！沒有考慮到AI啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在都有。"],["賴委員士葆：現在有AI的廠來啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：有啦！現在都有考慮了。"],["賴委員士葆：你贊不贊成，或者對於說……"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為資料中心……"],["賴委員士葆：來，你聽我講完，因為我時間快到了。科學園區旁邊自己設一個小型的核電廠，核電發電廠，你贊不贊成？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一部分要各方的評估，我想經濟部會審慎地來因應這樣的建議。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我最後一個問題問你，台杉，「杉木」的「杉」，台杉投資，國發會的國發基金投資了四成，在竹科建立了無人機的反制系統，你知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個我不知道。"],["賴委員士葆：你不知道？因為老共的無人機老是來給我們干擾啊！所以我們國科會，這個是好事情啊！你都不知道？這麼大的事情你都不知道。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請南科局長。"],["鄭局長秀絨：不是台杉，我們是有建置無人機反制的系統。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，我只是講說竹科有建置了，其他的園區要不要也建置？我就要這個答案，好不好？"],["鄭局長秀絨：都有、都有。"],["賴委員士葆：都有喔？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：超過30秒了，是不是主委之後能夠跟賴委員溝通，好嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！你不用那麼緊張嘛！我只有幾十秒而已。"],["主席：因為我們剛剛就只有超過30秒……"],["賴委員士葆：我知道。"],["主席：要公平。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！這個無人機的反制系統不要只有在竹科，其他的也要設啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員，吳主委請回。","再來請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:11:21","end_time":"2024-09-30T12:31:25+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155018","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","duration":681,"start_time":"2024-09-30T12:20:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b2921552107596b25d315587f90474d38d8006630137350771c6e12e9f11d954d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.30909375,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.637218750000002,"end":8.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.83971875,"end":9.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.14346875,"end":28.144718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.34721875,"end":51.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.634718750000005,"end":73.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.43721875,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.28221875000001,"end":118.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.22346875000001,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.24034375000001,"end":118.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.64471875000001,"end":123.21846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.25596875000002,"end":164.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.20784375000002,"end":199.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.78034375000001,"end":235.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.89284375000003,"end":236.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.09096875,"end":237.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.05284375000002,"end":267.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.83346875,"end":265.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.72346875,"end":437.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.30409375000005,"end":440.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.30784375,"end":445.95284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.10096875000005,"end":445.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.95284375000006,"end":460.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.17596875000004,"end":449.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.52909375,"end":457.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.53284375000004,"end":494.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.46909375,"end":491.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.83971875000003,"end":497.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.86034375,"end":507.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.27659375,"end":520.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.81971875,"end":516.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.6672187500001,"end":519.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.42221875,"end":524.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.1853437500001,"end":525.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.7253437500001,"end":582.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.2822187500001,"end":525.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.2140937500001,"end":586.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.42034375,"end":586.7578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.589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Science活動當中的一個系列,再加上給小小孩的Kids Science這個兒童日。那我自己當天也玩了非常多的"},{"start":28.456,"end":50.737,"text":"一站一站的闖關跟相關的攤位甚至我還在現場意外的遇到我的好朋友帶他們家小小孩真的就實際去參與這個活動我相信這個事情如果回到你的小時候你你怎麼來看身為一個小孩你怎麼來看像這樣子有趣而且是讓孩子們直接走進科學研究大樓到這個現場去體驗你如何看像這樣的活動對孩子的意義"},{"start":51.698,"end":51.858,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":73.496,"end":92.576,"text":"那我覺得就像你剛剛講的你小時候沒有國科會但是現在的小孩長大有國科會給予這樣的支持所以我也很希望像這樣的活動一定要持續辦理甚至去討論擴大辦理的可能性那當然在不增加國科會工作壓力太多的情況之下我想我們就提出這樣的要求是不是主委這邊可以做個承諾"},{"start":93.337,"end":117.991,"text":"我承諾要做這件事那其實我們經費的編列也已經增加了在未來這幾年希望能夠擴大對我們全國的小朋友他在這個科學上面的認知能夠及早讓他們了解激發他們的這個興趣那將來他不管從事任何的行業有這種科學的基礎對他們在任何即使是人文領域都會很有幫助"},{"start":118.471,"end":136.536,"text":"這個我完全認同喔那這邊我看到處長也新上任的處長也已經在你的後面了這邊我想要問一下處長你有沒有印象在幾年前呢立法院其實有開了這個公聽會在2017年關於科技基本法修法的時候把科普入法的公聽會當時處長你也在你有印象在這個公聽會上"},{"start":137.256,"end":152.353,"text":"其實我們提出一個非常重要的觀點就是不管是科學教育科學轉譯科學傳播其實應該都是重要的科普工具跟工作對不對這邊可不可以請處長回應一下之前您在這個公聽會上也有發言這樣"},{"start":154.395,"end":171.93,"text":"謝謝委員我們希望說好的科學研究可以透過多層次的科學轉譯讓一般的民眾可以更清楚的理解那這個轉譯跟傳播其實也非常符合昭偉今天所定的主題他其實一個非常重要的政策溝通工具我們來看一下"},{"start":172.31,"end":198.191,"text":"大家想到科普的時候真的就會想到我剛剛說包含我去參加那個活動叫科學教育活動但明明科學傳播跟知識轉譯其實也非常非常的重要但是在處長您新上任我想要跟您討論的我們如何去增加所謂科學傳播跟知識轉譯在國科會您的這個新上任之後你如何把這個視為是重要的政策方向我來分享一個網頁來我們往下看"},{"start":200.464,"end":218.732,"text":"這個FB有一個專頁叫怪奇事務所他會用非常有趣的動畫或是圖卡來跟很多小孩分享關於科學知識還有大家都非常熟悉的搞笑諾貝爾獎可能在很多非常嚴肅的科學家眼中看起來這不是一個好的科學研究但是他確實可能是一個很重要的入門專再來或是樹幹實驗室他們會把很多"},{"start":221.493,"end":235.418,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":238.117,"end":260.363,"text":"對科學傳播就是除了科學教育之外呢其實還要有很多樂趣可以吸引一般民眾的眼光所以像比如說委員這個戴雄的便便為什麼是方的其實這一位搞笑肉非常得主現在是在清華大學動力機械系那他也在國科會的計畫邀請之下呢也到高雄的科工館"},{"start":261.563,"end":286.156,"text":"做了一場科普講座是死尿物理學這個是一個非常吸引的我相信所有的小孩聽到死尿這兩個字就會非常的開心也就是說我們大人可能覺得怎麼不要一天到晚講這個又是死又是尿但是如果這個興趣可以作為孩子們進入或是一般成人進入科學領域我相信非常重要的一件事情所以我們來看下一頁其實國科會都支持了非常多好的研究可是"},{"start":286.736,"end":286.776,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":301.94,"end":316.281,"text":"更不要講公共電視它的收看率跟一般其他商業電視台的比較可能又更低所以我這邊是不是可以積極的提出回到今天的專案報告主題所謂的永續科研跟政策溝通到底我們要怎麼樣把我們的科研成果讓社會知道"},{"start":317.262,"end":332.795,"text":"我發現在國科會今年的永續科學學門專題研究我整理了這些我們來看一下它有台灣的廢水的問題地下水還有黑潮入侵還有新型態的海水與藻共生這麼多這麼多題目我們如何讓更多的公民知道"},{"start":333.215,"end":359.514,"text":"台灣的科學家台灣的政府台灣的學者其實在非常多層面都非常努力回應到我剛說的科學轉譯跟科學傳播科學教育我覺得應該都會是非常重要的一部分好下一頁所以這邊也要拜託國科會提醒國科會一樣是科學轉譯的研究其實這幾年台灣有中研院的顏值有物或者是民間有非常多出版社也會跟很多專家學者合作"},{"start":360.194,"end":388.723,"text":"出版相關的書籍不管是師大或是台大或是中研院都有很多跟民間合作的案例或者是他們自己也做有趣的網站我想要說相關的傳播知識如果沒有有趣作為一個很重要的入門專這對很多人來說就是一個門檻那我自己的專業我回來看其實是整體對於知識編輯的這個角度來看這個事情所以這邊是不是有一個建議想要提出來給國科會主委跟新上任的處長作為參考我們來看一下"},{"start":389.483,"end":414.019,"text":"目前以科普為主出版為主的有所謂吳大游科普獎我相信兩位都知道還有國科會對於學校教授有相關的教案補助可是事實上我認為一個好的科普文或者是一個好的科普影片或是一個好用的科普網站如果沒有相對應的肯定方法給予他們相關的獎項相關的肯定對於這些在第一線做這些科普推廣"},{"start":414.599,"end":414.899,"text":"這個要求很具體對不對?"},{"start":442.312,"end":445.135,"text":"陳委員這個建議我們會納入考量因為按照剛剛的講法任何的改變需要請教我們這個專家我們請教過以後我們再研議一下看看"},{"start":460.711,"end":488.462,"text":"我覺得成立獎項的困難大概有幾個啦一就是誰可以當這個獎項的評審或者是什麼樣的轉譯方法或是創作方法值得被肯定他是來自於受眾的肯定還是來自專家學者圈的肯定我覺得這是兩個不同的意見的交集但是國科會如果可以擔任這個籌備的平台把大家的意見做成一個溝通然後有一個起點我相信會有更多人願意投入所謂科學教育轉譯跟創作的這個"},{"start":491.304,"end":519.884,"text":"他也可以成為國科會非常重要的幫手對不對是好謝謝委員的建議我們會仔細考慮那你不要只有持續考慮啦因為我還有一些時間所以我可以再多拜託一下如果不要持續考慮更積極我們可不可以先開相關會議來討論可能會遇到的困難可以可以我們會邀請這個領域的專家學者我們來請教看看是不是好好的設計這樣的這個誘因這個誘因就是要鼓勵大家能夠投入這是很正面的"},{"start":520.644,"end":549.543,"text":"這是獎項的部分,那我們辦公室也會繼續再跟國科會來開會討論好不好?好,謝謝陳委員那有了獎項之後我們再多要求一個啦就是產業交流平台喔事實上很多的產官學交流其實對於很多議題的推進是非常重要我相信主委跟新的處長應該都很有感覺那目前呢在教育部有一個關於科學教育跟博物館的科普論壇但是我們有沒有辦法在國科會的支持底下辦一個關於科普內容創作者的交流論壇"},{"start":550.844,"end":568.833,"text":"作為回應這個時代有更多年輕人或是更多的創業家更多的知識工作者科學教育知識工作者他們願意用不同的方法投入所謂科學教育他不會只局限於到大學去教書他也不會只局限於進中小學教科學他其實在各行各業都有這個機會"},{"start":569.974,"end":599.633,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":600.261,"end":613.776,"text":"我們應該會找一些科普比較有經驗的前輩老師們大家一起來開會討論那甚至剛剛這張投影片裡面就是跟教育部的這個科普論壇其實也是有合作的機會謝謝"},{"start":615.137,"end":642.992,"text":"好,也就是說確實我們辦公室找了這麼多資料我們最在意的就是科普他必須要用不同的方法不同的時間點或是不同的形態被更多不在科學領域當中的人看見而且他們也願意參與其中我相信所有科學教育的普及絕對是這個時代的公民不能少的基本知識甚至我們在說不管是面對假資訊或者是面對詐騙面對更多判斷能力上需求我相信科學教育絕對不能缺席對嗎?"},{"start":642.992,"end":643.053,"text":"主委"},{"start":645.126,"end":669.694,"text":"是的,同意委員所以我要再次感謝國科會關於兒童科普的努力我們也看到那個活動我們希望可以持續辦理剛剛主委你已經答應了那後續的獎項或者是這個論壇的平台我們也希望國科會可以積極的跟進在科普的科學轉譯或是相關的科學教育或是科普的傳播我覺得國科會可以有更多的角色跟努力好不好是,謝謝那我們也會跟國科會一起努力"},{"start":670.194,"end":670.234,"text":"陳培瑜"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:20:04 - 12:31:25","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"155018","gazette":{"lineno":1032,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時20分）有請主委，謝謝主席，謝謝！"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：陳委員好！"],["陳委員培瑜：主委午安！主委，我想要先謝謝國科會，去年我們質詢有關兒少科普的事情之後，我們看到今年國科會馬上就在Kiss Science活動中的一個系列，再加上給小小孩的Kids’ Science的這個兒童日。我自己當天也玩了非常多，我在相關攤位一站一站的闖關，我甚至還在現場意外的遇到我的好朋友帶著他們家的小小孩實際去參與活動。我相信這個事情如果回到你的小時候，你怎麼看？身為一個小孩，你怎麼看像這樣有趣，而且是讓孩子們直接走進科學研究大樓，到這個現場去體驗，你如何看像這樣的活動對孩子的意義？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可惜我出生的年代沒有國科會這樣的協助，我真的會很高興，他們從小就認識科學能夠帶給這個社會多麼有趣的一面，然後協助大家在生活各層面發展，我認為這是很好的活動，也很謝謝陳委員長期對我們科普的支持。"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得就像你剛才講的，你小時候沒有國科會，但是現在的小孩長大有國科會給予這樣的支持，所以我也很希望像這樣的活動一定要持續辦理，甚至討論擴大辦理的可能性。當然，在不增加國科會太多工作壓力的情況下，我想我們就提出這樣的要求，主委這邊是不是可以做個承諾？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我承諾要做這件事情，其實我們編列的經費已經增加了，希望未來這幾年能夠擴大全國小朋友對科學的認知，讓他們能夠即早瞭解，激發他們的興趣，將來不管他從事任何行業，有了科學基礎，這對他們來說，即使是人文領域也都會很有幫助。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個我完全認同，我看到新上任的處長也已經站在你的後面了。這邊我想要問一下處長，你有沒有印象？其實幾年前立法院有開過公聽會，2017年在科技基本法修法的時候，我們有召開把科普入法的公聽會，當時處長你也在，你有印象其實在公聽會上我們有提出一個非常重要的觀點，就是不管是科學教育、科學轉譯、科學傳播，其實這都應該是重要的科普工具跟工作對不對？這邊可不可以請處長回應一下？之前你在這個公聽會上也有發言。"],["李處長旺龍：是，謝謝委員！對，我們希望好的科學研究可以透過多層次的科學轉譯，讓一般民眾都可以更清楚的理解。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個轉譯跟傳播其實也非常符合召委今天所訂的主題，其實它是非常重要的一個政策溝通工具。我們來看一下，大家想到科普的時候就會想到我剛才說的，包含我去參加的那個活動，它叫「科學教育活動」，但明明「科學傳播」和「知識轉譯」也非常非常的重要，處長你新上任，我想要跟你討論，我們要如何增加所謂的「科學傳播」跟「知識轉譯」？國科會在你新上任之後，你要如何把這個視為重要的政策方向？我來分享一個網頁，我們往下看。","FB有一個專頁叫：「怪奇事務所」，它會用非常有趣的動畫或是圖卡來跟很多小孩分享科學知識。還有大家都非常熟悉的「搞笑諾貝爾獎」，這個可能在很多非常嚴肅的科學家眼中看起來這不是一個好的科學研究，但是它確實是一個很重要的入門磚。再來，或是「數感實驗室」，它會把很多困難的知識視覺化、圖卡化，把它做為很重要的溝通方法，讓更多人可以進入這個科學領域，不知道處長和主委你們怎麼看像這樣子的轉譯跟相關傳播工具的可能性？"],["李處長旺龍：科學傳播除了科學教育之外，其實還要有很多樂趣可以吸引一般民眾的眼光，比如說委員簡報上提到袋熊的便便為什麼是方的，其實這一位搞笑諾貝爾獎得主現在是在清華大學動力機械系，他也在國科會的計畫邀請之下，到高雄的科工館做了一場科普講座是「屎尿物理學」，這是一個非常吸引人……"],["陳委員培瑜：我相信所有的小孩聽到「屎尿」這兩個字就會非常地開心，也就是說，我們大人可能覺得不要一天到晚講這個，又是屎又是尿，但是如果這個興趣可以作為孩子們進入或是一般成人進入科學領域，我相信是非常重要的一件事情。","我們來看下一頁，其實國科會支持了非常多好的研究，可是可能真的缺了所謂的轉譯跟傳播，所以事實上很多人並不知道有這些很棒的研究，甚至還有很多本地化的主題研究也都沒有被看見，我們真的覺得很可惜，常常在很多公共電視的新聞看過，咻！咻！咻！瞬間，更不要講公共電視的收看率跟一般其他商業電視臺比較可能又更低，所以我這邊是不是可以積極地提出，回到今天專案報告的主題，所謂的「永續科研與政策溝通」，到底我們要怎麼樣把科研成果讓社會知道？我發現在國科會今年的永續科學學門專題研究，我整理了這些，我們來看一下，它有臺灣的廢水問題、地下水，還有黑潮入侵，還有新型態的海水魚藻共生，這麼多這麼多題目，我們如何讓更多的公民知道臺灣的科學家、臺灣的政府、臺灣的學者其實在非常多層面都非常努力？回應到我剛剛說的，科學轉譯和科學傳播、科學教育，我覺得應該都會是非常重要的一部分。","所以這邊也要拜託國科會、提醒國科會，一樣是科學轉譯的研究，其實這幾年臺灣有中研院的「研之有物」，民間也有非常多出版社會跟很多專家學者合作出版相關的書籍，不管是師大、臺大或是中研院都有很多與民間合作的案例，或者是他們自己也做了有趣的網站，我想要說，相關的傳播知識如果沒有以「有趣」作為一個很重要的入門磚，這對很多人來說就是一個門檻。以我自己的專業回來看，其實是整體對於知識編輯的這個角度來看這件事情，所以這邊有一個建議想要提出來給國科會主委跟新上任的處長作為參考。","我們來看一下，目前以科普為主、出版為主的，有所謂「吳大猷科普獎」，我相信兩位都知道。還有，國科會對於學校教授有相關的教案補助，可是事實上我認為一個好的科普文，或者是一個好的科普影片，或是一個好用的科普網站，如果沒有相對應的肯定方法給予他們相關的獎項、相關的肯定，對於這些在第一線做科普推廣、知識轉譯及科學教育的作者或者是轉譯者、創作者來說，其實很可惜。我想要再進一步要求，從我們已經開始辦了活動，我們也對這件事情投入相關的預算，我們有相關的想像，可是我們可不可以設立一個獎項給予這些所謂科學創作者，尤其在科普工作上的人給予他們肯定？我們有機會在明年設計一個這樣的獎項嗎？這個要求很具體，對不對？可不可以想一想？還是我們先來研議這個獎項的可能？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，陳委員這個建議我們會納入考量，因為按照剛剛的講法，任何的改變需要請教專家啦！我們請教過以後再研議一下，看看如果……"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得成立獎項的困難大概有幾個啦！一就是誰可以當這個獎項的評審，或者是什麼樣的轉譯方法或是創作方法值得被肯定，它是來自於受眾的肯定還是來自於專家學者圈的肯定，我覺得這是兩個不同意見的交集，但是國科會如果可以擔任這個籌備的平臺，把大家的意見做成一個溝通，然後有一個起點，我相信會有更多人願意投入科學教育轉譯跟創作的行列，那他也可以成為國科會非常重要的幫手，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。好，謝謝委員的建議，我們會仔細考慮。"],["陳委員培瑜：你不要只有持續考慮啦！因為我還有一些時間，所以我可以再多拜託一下，如果不要持續考慮，更積極，我們可不可以先開相關會議來討論可能會遇到的困難？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以、可以，我們可以邀請這個領域的專家學者，我們來請教看看，好好地設計這樣的誘因。"],["陳委員培瑜：獎項，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個誘因就是要鼓勵大家能夠投入，這個是很正面的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個是獎項的部分，我們辦公室也會積極再跟國科會來開會討論，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，有了獎項之後，我們再多要求一個啦！就是產業交流平臺，事實上很多產官學的交流對於很多議題的推進是非常重要，我相信主委跟新的處長應該都很有感覺。目前在教育部有一個關於科學教育跟博物館的科普論壇，但是我們有沒有辦法在國科會的支持底下，辦一個關於科普內容創作者的交流論壇？作為回應這個時代有更多年輕人或是更多的創業家、更多的科學教育知識工作者，他們願意用不同的方法投入科學教育，他不會只侷限於到大學去教書，他也不會只侷限於進中小學教科學，他其實在各行各業都有機會來做這件事情，但是如果我們有機會打造這個平臺、打造這個論壇讓更多人有交流，不管是經驗的交流或是知識內容的交流，我相信在國科會支持底下，應該會讓這個產業更有機會被看見。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員的建議，我覺得這是一個很好的想法，我相信我們李處長應該會積極來做這件事。"],["陳委員培瑜：你直接請李處長是不是？那我們是不是可以請處長回應一下？假設有機會展開，它可能會往什麼方向，或者是可不可以開始規劃這件事情？"],["李處長旺龍：對，我們應該會找一些科普比較有經驗的前輩老師們，大家一起來開會討論，甚至在剛剛這張投影片裡面，跟教育部的科普論壇其實也是有合作的機會，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，也就是說，確實我們辦公室找了這麼多資料，我們最在意的就是科普必須要用不同的方法、不同的時間點或是不同的型態被更多不在科學領域當中的人看見，而且他們也願意參與其中，我相信所有科學教育的普及絕對是這個時代的公民不能少的基本知識。甚至我們在說，不管是面對假資訊或者是面對詐騙，面對更多判斷能力上需求，我相信科學教育絕對不能缺席，對嘛？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是的，同意委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以我要再次感謝國科會關於兒童科普的努力，我們也看到那個活動，我們希望可以持續辦理，剛剛主委你已經答應了。至於後續的獎項或者是這個論壇的平臺，我們也希望國科會可以積極地跟進，在科普的科學轉譯、相關的科學教育或是科普的傳播，我覺得國科會可以有更多的角色和努力，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們也會與國科會一起努力。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們就期待你們有相關進度，我們辦公室也會持續追蹤。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委，謝謝處長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，主委請回。","再來請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:08:46","end_time":"2024-09-30T12:22:37+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155017","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","duration":526,"start_time":"2024-09-30T12:13:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bf7b6032d0fb1ccf2675162b30ff93f65d800663013735077fa45173602f404955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.8697187500000005,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"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"start":52.394,"end":52.755,"text":"其實這本席認同"},{"start":80.138,"end":84.481,"text":"對於聘用人員的限制,規定是要以所任工作非本機關現有人員所能擔任者為限。"},{"start":103.072,"end":127.954,"text":"所以這個人數也有原額的限制不能超過5%這個是天條還是有例外也有例外啦就是他如果落在他的組織法裡面有寫的話就有例外有些部會像國科會像數位部國科會還有應安會這一些都有"},{"start":130.707,"end":131.447,"text":"社工也有突破"},{"start":159.947,"end":171.818,"text":"應該他的緣額來講是21位的聘用人員但農業部的公務預算編了27位多出了將近20%有基金預算編了4個人然後農業部的公務預算編了27人這個是這個"},{"start":180.256,"end":182.478,"text":"副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":207.683,"end":234.799,"text":"我跟委員報告一下數發部的因為他整個就在組織法裡面直接就落下他有100個聘用人員的一般來講是一個整體的概念是5%可是少數機關像我剛才跟委員報告的數位部啦數發部國科會應安會這一種他直接落在組織法裡面一個教訓受理的運用就是說數發部到目前他們正式員額是不是還沒有用滿"},{"start":236.412,"end":264.25,"text":"還沒有用滿還沒有用滿那對於數發部如果說一開始我們講數位發展部一開始剛創立剛成立的時候我們也對他高度期待我們也認為是說有一些數位的人才確實他可能沒有辦法不受這個公務員的一個這個任用資格所以事實那個時候是有給他比較寬鬆的部分那但是數發部也已經成立多久了兩年多快三年嘛對啊那如果說這樣子"},{"start":265.953,"end":294.382,"text":"您認不認為說整個中央政府部會的一個人事任用還是要以正軌來講就是我們中央政府的這個人員還是以公務正式的公務人員為主那聘用人員為輔嘛那但是到目前為止速發部已經成立兩年多快三年了他正式公務人員沒有編滿沒有用滿但是他的聘用人員持續超標他變成是說已經是十幾趴啦聘用人員也沒有用滿喔"},{"start":297.386,"end":302.327,"text":"我知道你剛剛講100人嘛所以你現在78你是鼓勵他再繼續用聘用人員"},{"start":304.262,"end":328.979,"text":"委員長這不好笑啊本席很認真在跟你討論這個問題就在於是說以人事的角度宏觀來講各部會如果說你這樣子可以放寬你甚至你剛剛的這個態度好像在鼓勵速發部說快一點你們七十八人而已還有二十二個那如果說這樣的話那你不就打擊一般公務員的士氣嗎那還有其他部會可以講啊我說我速發部很重要"},{"start":330.179,"end":349.332,"text":"教育部 教育部也覺得說我專任老師很重要那其他經濟部我這個經濟趨勢發展很重要那到最後大家都不需要公務人員啊我用聘用就好啦那是不是就看誰比較大聲或是說誰可以比較有佔據可以去要求 去請出"},{"start":351.041,"end":367.533,"text":"所以我在拉回來講的是說是不是應該還是要督促他們以正式公務人員而且我相信以中華民國公務人員的素質以及優秀程度來講他能夠考得上公務人員他當然對於這個新科技新技術可以有一些了解"},{"start":369.415,"end":393.773,"text":"我剛才在笑的原因就是因為數碼部尤其治安署那裡我很清楚他們本來是要用業聘的那業聘是比較好用嘛可以馬上集戰力嘛結果後來他們用進來以後馬上就被銀行外面每一個人一個月加一兩萬全部挖了很多人走等於就是數位部治安署幫他們認證後來他們又把業聘的要轉成正職"},{"start":397.876,"end":427.459,"text":"他自己就發現說用業聘的他的代議他講不過外面所以他們又有提一個計畫在轉正職所以很多東西就剛開始規範的時候是有一個延額可是他實際目前我們了解整個樹花部整個部位大概有80幾%的倒值率還有大概15%以上還沒有倒值所以他倒值也不如意是不是不如預期壓力比較大吧"},{"start":429.258,"end":437.385,"text":"國人對於速發部的期待絕對不止於此你說過去這幾年的詐騙速發部沒有責任嗎你說過去這幾年的相關的這一些技術的進步速發部沒有責任嗎那速發部每一次到現在到目前為止你說兩三年過去了給國人留下什麼印象就一個點面線的系統"},{"start":458.493,"end":459.974,"text":"公務同仁一視同仁這是中央政府的一個基石不是嗎?"},{"start":483.132,"end":511.953,"text":"所以既然速發部他一直有這樣的狀況正式的公務員都沒有辦法補滿那他到底是他有沒有積極的去找有沒有積極的鼓勵其他優秀的公務人員他可以來速發部來報效國家而不是說他們沒有去做這樣的部分然後又持續放任他用聘用人員這個部分應該才是人事總處再去檢討的地方我們會跟速發部再一起討論看看有沒有哪些需要我們協助的地方"},{"start":512.253,"end":513.335,"text":"討論後有相關內容提供洪委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:13:51 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12:22:37","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155017","gazette":{"lineno":904,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時13分）謝謝主席，麻煩請蘇人事長。"],["主席：請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：人事長好。人事總處的組織法寫得很清楚，就是主責機關員額的管理、規劃、督導等相關事項，人事長，就這一個法定職責來講，您有沒有透過機關員額的管理、規劃去好好的督促每一個機關？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們每兩年都會做員額的評鑑，透過這個員額評鑑來了解哪些員額是不合理的使用，我們也會做回收的動作。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，哪些員額會做回收，哪些員額真的有需要增加也要適時地增加，當然這很難啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：當然，當然會增加，該增加的就增加，不過針對輔助人力的部分，我們會做減法的思考，因為現在整個資訊科技的數位發展，還有人工智慧，就是輔助的部分，我們也一直用減法的角度，反而一些新興的、為民服務的業務，我們是用加法，有增有減啦。"],["洪委員孟楷：ok。其實這個本席認同，就是有一些例行業務或者是紙上作業，如果能夠用新的科技來取代，讓人力不要浪費，那麼釋出的人力就可以來做更有效的運用嘛。但其中另外一個部分就是針對聘用人員的限制，現行規定是要所任工作非本機關現有人員所能擔任者為限，對不對？所以這個人數也有員額的限制，不超過……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有有有，不能超過5。"],["洪委員孟楷：不能超過5？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，不能超過5。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個是天條還是有例外？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：也有例外，就是如果在它的組織法裡面有寫的話，就有例外，有些部會像數位部、國科會還有運安會這些都有，還有一些是社工，社工也有突破這個規定，因為社工本來我們也是限5，後來發現很多地方政府的社工就碰到這個天花板，它沒有辦法找更多的社工來執行這一項業務……"],["洪委員孟楷：地方政府如果是第一線為民服務可能有需要，當然有一些彈性的調整空間，但本席現在比較好奇的是，沒有錯，中央政府總預算送來，我們也看了一下各部會的相關員額，農業部就它的員額來講應該只有21位聘用人員，但農業部的公務預算編了27位，多出了將近20%。基金預算編了4個人，然後農業部的公務預算編了27人，這是僱用人員的部分。另外，數位發展部，剛剛你有特別提到，照理講就它的員額去換算只能有30位聘用人員，但是它卻超標兩倍多，現在114年公務預算的預算書裡面，它要聘用78位，換算下來已經超標，不只是我們5%的限制沒有守住，它已經變成是十幾%了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一下，關於數發部，因為它的組織法裡面直接就明定其聘用員額不得超過100人，一般來講聘用人員占整體員額的比例不得超過5%，可是少數機關，像我剛才跟委員報告的數發部、國科會、運安會這一種，它的聘用員額是直接落在組織法裡面，所以它們就照組織法的數字去運用。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是人事長，我可不可以提醒一下，就是數發部到目前為止，他們的正式員額是不是還沒有用滿？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：還沒有用滿。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。那對於數發部，如果說一開始──我們講數位發展部一開始剛成立的時候，我們也對它高度期待，我們也認為說有一些數位的人才，確實他可能沒有辦法符合公務員的任用資格，所以事實上那個時候是有給它比較寬鬆的規定，但是數發部已經成立多久了？兩年多快三年嘛。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：兩年多，還沒有到三年，它是111年8月27日成立的。"],["洪委員孟楷：對啊，那如果這樣子，您認不認為整個中央政府部會的人事任用還是要以正軌來講？就是我們中央政府的人員還是以正式的公務人員為主、聘用人員為輔嘛，但是到目前為止，數發部已經成立兩年多快三年了，它的正式公務人員沒有編滿、沒有用滿，但是它的聘用人員持續超標，變成說已經是十幾%了。人事長，您對於……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：聘用人員也沒有用滿喔。"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道，你剛剛講100人嘛，所以現在聘用78人，你是鼓勵它再繼續用聘用人員？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：人事長，這個不好笑。本席很認真的在跟你討論這個問題，就在於說以人事的角度宏觀來講，如果說你這樣子可以放寬，甚至你剛剛的態度好像是在鼓勵數發部說，快一點，你們才聘用78個人而已，還有22個，如果這樣的話，那你不就是打擊一般公務人員的士氣嗎？還有其他的部會也可以講，我說我數發部很重要，那教育部也覺得說我的專任老師很重要，經濟部也可以說我的經濟趨勢發展很重要，到時候大家都不需要公務人員，我用聘用就好啦，那是不是就看誰比較大聲，還是說誰比較有背景可以去要求、去爭取？所以我再拉回來講的是說……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我剛才在笑……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是應該還是要督促他們任用正式的公務人員？而且我相信，以中華民國公務人員的素質以及優秀的程度來講，他能夠考得上公務人員，他當然對於這個新科技、新技術可以有一些了解。人事長，你怎麼看？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我剛才在笑的原因就是因為數發部，尤其資安署，那裡的情況我很清楚，他們本來是要用約聘的，約聘人員比較好用，馬上就是即戰力嘛，結果後來他們聘用進來以後，馬上就被外面的銀行以每一個人一個月加一、兩萬全部挖了很多人走，等於就是數位部資安署幫他們認證，後來他們又把約聘的要轉成正職，結果它自己就發現用約聘的待遇搶不過外面的企業，所以他們又有提一個計畫要把約聘轉正職。所以很多東西就是剛開始規範的時候是有一個員額，可是就我們了解，數發部整個部內大概有八十幾%的到職率，還有大概15%以上還沒有到職。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以它的到職率也不如預期，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可能壓力比較大吧？"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在的，人事長，國人對於數發部，如果要談論數發部，我可以跟你談論一、兩個小時沒有問題，國人對於數發部的期待絕對不止於此，你說過去這幾年的詐騙，數發部沒有責任嗎？你說過去這幾年相關的這一些技術的進步，數發部沒有責任嗎？那數發部每一次，到目前為止，你說兩、三年過去了，給國人留下什麼印象？就一個點麵線的系統。如果要點麵線的話，我用foodpanda、Uber Eats就可以了，我根本不用數發部，我不用每年花兩百多億的公務預算給數發部來做這樣的事情。人員不好找我同意，但是今天我跟你就教的就是人事總處的態度以及狀況，而不是說今天這個小孩會吵的有糖吃，這個小孩他不叫就沒有，公務同仁一視同仁，這是中央政府的一個基石，不是嗎？所以，既然數發部一直有這樣的狀況，正式的公務員都沒有辦法補滿，那它到底有沒有積極地去找，有沒有積極地鼓勵其他優秀的公務人員可以來數發部報效國家，而不是說他們沒有去做這樣的努力，然後又持續放任它用聘用人員。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他們有積極地去找。"],["主席：因為時間的關係……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個部分應該才是人事總處要去檢討、要去督促的地方。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會跟數發部再一起討論，看看有沒有哪些需要我們協助的地方。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：討論的狀況，是不是之後也可以給本席一份資料，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["主席：請人事長在討論後，將相關的內容提供給洪委員。謝謝。謝謝洪委員，謝謝蘇人事長。","接下來有請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","有請高金素梅委員，高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","所有登記發言委員，除不在場者外，均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員謝龍介、伍麗華所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","林思銘","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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"這個分成兩部分一部分是修正計畫就等行政院核定另外就是那天基本設計的會刊那麼有一些需要補正的那我想補正之後"},{"start":63.863,"end":78.642,"text":"這個基本設計的核定應該是一個月以內可以完成的一個月以內可以完成喔所以也可以就是說在一個月內完成這個基本設計的審查OKOK那依照目前的審查時程我們可以確保年底前完成基本設計嗎"},{"start":81.294,"end":101.261,"text":"他可以因為他基本設計已經有了是工程會是審查所以和整個核定之後基本設計就可以了嘛哈對那就進行細部設計然後相關工程採購發包等等就是功能所以之所以要懇請我們工程會加速完成審查就是希望我們要配合預算的編列的程序啊"},{"start":101.821,"end":124.486,"text":"我們希望說雖然目前前瞻四五期已經有了部分的經費但是我們的這個總工程經費糟糕大1600多億那工期長達10年那2034年我們希望2034年可以完工嘛對不對所以我們都知道越早動工可以越能節省我們的經費那越完動工我們經費的變動性就越高那目前預計在115年可以確定可以動工嗎"},{"start":129.608,"end":153.784,"text":"要看主辦單位他的細部設計的時間那我們會向交通部或者是鐵道局來了解他的細設需要多少時間好那但是如果說我們希望在115年可以動工的話那是不是意味著明年的交通部這邊也要開始這個編列預算預算可能要請教交通部"},{"start":155.427,"end":160.189,"text":"對沒錯對台中市來講比較重要的捷運計畫沒錯因為還要配合很多都市計畫變更阿等等的那也都是相當長的程序喔"},{"start":175.29,"end":195.341,"text":"所以我要拜託的是所主委就是除了剛剛你有承諾的進速在年底這些該過的流程都過了之外也請你關心後續整個工程發包的過程包含這個包含什麼土建工程啊機電工程如果發包過程中有任何的困難要拜託主委多多的協助所以我願意跟台中市政府來配合"},{"start":196.241,"end":214.853,"text":"所以主委也要拜託您協調您可不可以保證說協調相關的部門確保明年的預算編列能夠充分考慮到捷運藍線的需求這個可以我們會跟交通部及其他的部會來討論是那因為我想喔常常是溝通上的問題想要考慮到我們藍線捷運的複雜性還有我們的這個重要性"},{"start":218.235,"end":244.386,"text":"有沒有可能建立一個更有效的溝通機制比如說您是否可以考慮成立一個比較像專門的工作小組來定期的召開這樣的會議來協助過程中可能出現的問題我們中大公建計畫都會列管而且固定會開督導會報那必要的時候我會請同仁在部會跟市府的負責的窗口那會有一個平台同時隨時來討論或隨時來協調問題"},{"start":248.307,"end":273.526,"text":"對,我想這個過程中一來一回已經就是拖了非常的久,回去要修正回去要修正等等的那主委你今天的報告也有提到最近這幾年工程流標的改進方式那我想這部分也很肯定,但是實務上常常會遇到國際原物料的物價突然大幅變動所以導致工程經費不足或是甚至廠商不願意投標那請教主委你有沒有是不是考慮說寬列物調費跟預備費"},{"start":276.799,"end":299.422,"text":"這個我們會請機關必要的時候修改相關的招標的契約就物條的部分何時來編列我想這樣對於整個招標程序會比較順利好那我問到這邊最後我還是想要問一下我們都知道捷運建設不僅有這個工程技術等等的問題還有環境土地等複雜的問題"},{"start":300.563,"end":313.305,"text":"那請問工程會是不是還有更多的專業支持特別是在這些跨領域問題上具體來說就是工程會還可以做哪些方面的額外提供臺中市政府的支持和這個建設進度的支持"},{"start":315.937,"end":339.796,"text":"就是我們會隨時注意他的施工進度跟品質那如果說跟承攬商之間有一些合約不清楚的工程會還有一個諮詢委員會可以隨時接受雙方的諮詢確認這個合約雙方的這個起義讓這個施工比較順利而不一定要直接進入申訴或調解或仲裁"},{"start":340.316,"end":348.225,"text":"有一個特別有一個諮詢委員會就能夠快速來解決雙方面的問題總而言之謝謝拜託你在這個我們藍線捷運上繼續的幫我們盯緊進度好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:14:18 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start":3.276,"end":4.461,"text":"主席請陳主委"},{"start":11.44,"end":33.002,"text":"委員長早主委在這裏你也相信我們公共工程的主委也負責交通的問題在廣東以外交通的建設也力道合作的結果在這裏我相信主委看我站在這知道我要來問什麼"},{"start":34.443,"end":39.669,"text":"但畢竟五月初到本省有自己探討過 也因為今天有這個時間主委來的時候"},{"start":45.629,"end":51.034,"text":"要如何將這次的鐵路高架配合?這次的鐵路高架是由李鴻一千年開始做的,總共230倍的價格,對應的負擔款30倍的價格"},{"start":66.548,"end":85.023,"text":"但是在這幾年來,尤其二十年,我們有在裡面的修正,我們的總金額是三百三十四億,我們的負擔又超過四十幾億,但是在這裡講的就是我們的物資企業,"},{"start":90.988,"end":91.589,"text":"王美惠議員"},{"start":103.055,"end":109.619,"text":"主委探討的是說,長久以來,我們有這個問題,高利貸和現有的技能,中華不一樣,因為高利貸已經在做了,在做的當中,長久以來,我們現有的,現在會遲到,常常說你們中央缺高利貸,"},{"start":132.332,"end":137.855,"text":"因為有什麼問題,我們要解決什麼問題,我們沒有分,中排沒有分,你看,在對一個關係,所以在"},{"start":147.489,"end":162.879,"text":"主委,大家都心誠說,最近在紀蘭的建設,我相信你也很用心,尤其我們的大中央未來的政策在交通的有18、40項,要漸漸去落實,要漸漸去做"},{"start":168.442,"end":171.246,"text":"要不然一定會回到像剛才那樣,會配合看,剛才說30多個月,到現在過幾年變40多個月"},{"start":183.476,"end":204.975,"text":"主委在這裏我們有一個方法來解決這個地方的問題來請主委你回答一下董事長 董事長委員這前面的背景是因為已經在施作當中對 我知道那這部分我請現在行政部長"},{"start":206.636,"end":220.919,"text":"委員：政府來探討這八頁的內容是否分攤的比例：還是說它是來自於土地取得：還是什麼那些都了解之後再進一步來合相：我會跟部長建議說安排這個時間：跟政府：還是委員做比較詳細的討論"},{"start":233.24,"end":241.642,"text":"因為主委本席跟你談到的就是說﹐我們需要讓地方辦理的﹐我們要開早餐﹐不然要去地方辦理也不好﹐最重要是做過地方的備付款﹐需要地方的財政要怎麼去處理﹐"},{"start":256.846,"end":257.527,"text":"王美惠議員"},{"start":272.157,"end":289.792,"text":"那這樣說幾個月都沒有改善：也在本席來接觸之後：才有辦法改善：我說喔,我們做的工程：說沒有應用到出民大會：是不可能的：即使人家有意見的時候：我們要趕快去處理：可以讓做工的安全：也可以讓住戶的人："},{"start":297.518,"end":298.718,"text":"謝謝王美惠委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:08:43 - 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的原因很多啦包括移工的問題啦包括缺工嘛對缺工還是缺工的問題嘛缺工就是移工"},{"start":183.993,"end":185.956,"text":"跑了500人以上的移工"},{"start":202.693,"end":223.653,"text":"討論500人以上的移工這可能是之前大家都不知道的原來我們淘機是那 各位那我想請教有沒有信心跟把握能夠督促交通部2027年等於116年民國116年能夠落成讓國人看到第三航廈可以使用"},{"start":225.086,"end":241.563,"text":"陶菊公司給我們的簡報是OK啦是沒有問題就是整個交通部的簡報是沒問題那我們會全力來督促他如期完成這樣的工程甚至有一部分陸續會完成陸續啟用也有啦並不是整個主體都完成才啟用"},{"start":242.063,"end":265.863,"text":"是當然不是每個主題都完成來啟用但是重點在於說能不能使用還有就是安全無虞嘛停機坪就可以而且中間是中間是它這個航廈跟跑道的這個部分能夠來啟用嘛來主委我再請教一下啦齁因為今天上午有討論到這個評委的一個部分只是其中有一個當然這我同仁有特別提出來就是說"},{"start":266.984,"end":288.88,"text":"專家學者建議名單的資料庫除名作業要點那其中第二條裡面有提到說資格審查的門檻央央沙沙寫了很多不管是單位教職或者是學友所藏學友專精但最後有加入民國98年9月20號以前已納入資料庫的專家學者不適用前項規定"},{"start":290.629,"end":290.649,"text":"我請處長來說"},{"start":307.318,"end":330.488,"text":"跟委員報告在我們專家學職資料庫是3年一個期限是所以他如果3年的時候沒有他再重新進入這個資料庫的時候就必須要符合這些資格所以應該沒有在這個之前已經沒有了嗎對除非他原本是符合就是以現在的標準來說因為我們3年要重新再檢視一遍每3年會重新整理相關的一個"},{"start":331.468,"end":333.449,"text":"本席想了解到底有多少人是適用這樣的一個資格"},{"start":356.778,"end":385.244,"text":"那沒關係今天我提出來這個疑問我也請這個我們相關單位是不是主委可以提供個資料給本席目前我們的這個學者名單裡面有多少人那以及這樣的一個條件是不是已經沒有使用那如果說沒有使用的話其實這一條但書也就可以拿掉了嘛學者名單是人數呢還是具體每個人每個人當然人數人數OK不需要你給我這洋洋灑灑這個人名啦我的要是人數以及就是說他符合的一個資格"},{"start":386.084,"end":386.404,"text":"洪孟楷"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:01:57 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GPT公布之後呢我們國科會這邊就有意識到說其實這個AI聊天機器人的這個文化侵略性質很強那所以也宣布我們台灣呢要自己製造自己的繁體中文語言模型也就是TED"},{"start":32.734,"end":49.167,"text":"拜登建制計劃從2023年4月底啟動之後大概一年的時間我們在今年的5月初有成果的發表本席在5月底的時候有試用過發現說其實泰德的資料庫有許多資料沒有及時的更新本席在質詢的時候主委這邊我也有詢過"},{"start":52.85,"end":54.932,"text":"國科會應該增加TIDE資料庫並設定出定期更新時程,目前辦理狀況如何定定?"},{"start":69.486,"end":97.212,"text":"我們也持續編列預算從明年開始也希望增加它的這個應用那陳委員所提到的我們在應用的時候那個訓練資料非常重要那我們現在有不同的這個管道或者資料一個就是公開的資料是免費的不需要授權的另外一種就是需要授權的資料我們也增加需要授權資料需要編列經費因為有些資料是需要授權金的"},{"start":97.332,"end":97.652,"text":"對於更新的時程,你們怎麼訂定?"},{"start":115.137,"end":126.771,"text":"資料更新是一直在持續進行的啦那現在幾個重點的推動第一個會以公部門的資料為主所以我們在年底會推出一些公部門的應用推出那包含立院達許這些系統也在規劃之中"},{"start":128.365,"end":151.05,"text":"所以是不定期的來更新資料更新本來就一直在收集我們一個團隊在國研院下面一個團隊一直在持續收集資料泰德在目前已經算是一個訓練有成果出來的階段那後續呢作為說我們泰德算是一個比較完整的資訊而且是資訊正確的一個繁體中文的語言模型那後續呢國科會這邊你們有沒有對泰德的推廣有什麼計畫跟目標我們預計跟哪些產業來合作"},{"start":157.694,"end":187.172,"text":"我們將來在智慧科技當然方產業生態系我們從事應用的時候我們也會把它用上來將來就會結合我們的產業的發展希望產業進來以後針對各行各業能夠訓練各行各業需求的這種模型再從明年的計畫開始就會陸續推動所以也就不只在現在我們的預算只能協助政府做部分的這個應用而已將來各行各業的應用才是最重要的"},{"start":187.972,"end":201.505,"text":"後續有沒有跨國的推廣合作的這些使用的計畫?如果將來使用繁體中文的系統的一些應用其他國家地區有需要的話我們當然也能夠透過我們的產業界能夠擴展到國際市場"},{"start":203.206,"end":228.984,"text":"因為這個不同於是那種開放性的就是比較open的那種AI的使用它是一個比較有選擇性的但是因為國科會我們建制的這個態的這個整個系統其實很不容易而且這也是正確的方向因為其實大家有體會到說在這個目前AI的使用上簡體字版其實對我們台灣是非常的不友善而且很多訊息是不正確的那所以說我們如果已經有"},{"start":230.845,"end":251.598,"text":"一個成果展現出來的希望可以持續的精進泰德的資料庫向世界展現說我們可以正確回答台灣相關問題的AI那這個部分也希望說我們國科會這邊除了剛才我提到的在資料庫的建置補充以及更新這個隨時的更新之外呢能夠比較積極的來推廣我們有一個正確的聲音在國際上替我們台灣來發聲"},{"start":256.761,"end":261.066,"text":"委員提醒非常重要,我們也很同意,我們希望往這個方向努力"},{"start":262.357,"end":268.643,"text":"那接下來我想請教主委其實今天也蠻多委員有針對這個問題審計部有針對我們國科會延攬人才計畫中我們博士級的這個研究人員的延攬情形提出了檢討那有指出說其中有178位的人員接受這個補助延攬已經10到22次更有123位的人員自從102年開始就接受這個延攬補助"},{"start":287.538,"end":290.281,"text":"本席覺得說其實針對延攬人才的補助我們的初衷是希望說我們這些人才在計畫結束之後呢可以轉任進學校產業或是研究機構但是像這個樣子不斷的接受延攬的狀況主委你對這個狀況你有什麼想法我覺得的確是對這些人才"},{"start":308.941,"end":336.701,"text":"來講有些不公平的地方那我們其實也已經提醒我們用人的單位在接受國會補助的時候希望能夠協助這些人才能夠做適當的生涯發展不要只是說一個聘約結束就沒有了這些人員其實他是計劃人力他不是認知他等於是非典型的勞工他對他的這樣的一份工作其實他沒有長期聘用的保證相對來說也是對他生涯發展的一個阻礙"},{"start":337.381,"end":341.503,"text":"所以希望說國科會你們要針對這樣的狀況是不是有建立一個審查排查的機制不僅只是說學術單位沒有開缺的這個問題其實產業界也是需要人才的那有人才的需求國科會更應該縫合我們的計畫的研究人才跟產業人才的這個落差讓我們這個人才可以延續上因為這些人才他們出入在哪裡他如果一直困在這些短期的研究計畫裡面他們的出入何在"},{"start":366.892,"end":367.893,"text":"主委,您對這個部分有什麼看法?"},{"start":382.16,"end":405.282,"text":"我蠻認同的我們接下來新的這一期的計畫我們會提醒申請的用人的單位如果國會補助的話我們當然是期待說我們用人單位要積極的來協助他使用的這些人才將來在生涯發展也要協助他們不要期限到就拼約結束就不管了希望他們也能夠積極協助"},{"start":407.184,"end":425.944,"text":"您也是有意識到這個問題的存在所以這個部分希望說除了說有審計部對你們提出檢討之外你們本身對這個問題的產生為什麼有這樣的現象那有了這樣的現象之後如果去協助跟解決國科會你必須有一個機制是"},{"start":426.854,"end":433.878,"text":"接下來對於大南方計畫這邊就叫主委首先本席也要肯認主委在大南方計畫的目標針對AI的發展蓬勃不僅只是科技產業需要導入AI跟高科技的協助當然在本席的選區有很多傳產如果傳產的整個製程營運以及研發可以從AI的發展中得到注意本席相信說我們邁向智慧科技導這個速度會更快"},{"start":454.048,"end":480.813,"text":"所以本席也十分的支持國會提出的這個推出適合於百工百業的AI應用並且來發展系統性的應用服務為百工百業來服務但是本席還是要先關心一下就是在波拉格前進基地目前的狀況那媒體有報導說我們波拉格的IC設計的基地還沒有開始營運那本席請問之後呢都是說你們是在調整方向那想要了解一下說所謂調整方向"},{"start":482.216,"end":487.214,"text":"的內容跟我們到底什麼時候 這個基地可以開始提供培訓服務"},{"start":488.089,"end":515.997,"text":"我們因為5月剛接任的時候對這個合作的這個內容不是很清楚那再加上接下來又有捷克的那個選舉所以他們的那個政府的那個組織負責的這個人員也會有一些更替然後執行的單位包含那個大學端還有他們的政府的那個負責的這個部門之間也有一些不同的這個看法所以經過一段時間的"},{"start":517.697,"end":517.717,"text":"﹑陳秀寳"},{"start":536.201,"end":537.702,"text":"國會負責人才培育,我認為在年底之前應該會定案。"},{"start":559.193,"end":579.707,"text":"主委的意思是說在年底之前就會有好消息其實本席一系列的這個問題都是聚焦在人才的培訓、研覽、流產以及育產所以希望說國會會這邊可以當人才培育的領頭羊既然我們看見國際的需求也了解到產業的困境那我們要輔導傳產進入智慧科技的這個領域也希望說智慧科技在台灣各產業各領域都能夠均衡的發展那延續剛剛提到的"},{"start":584.831,"end":592.756,"text":"114年國科會跨部會推動智慧科技大南方產業生態系推動方案那預計在5年會投入300億元的預算分成4大領域來推動但是其實在預算說明會上面國科會並沒有對系部的計畫及預算的使用說的詳細那這麼大規模的預算我相信民眾也會想知道說國科會你們在推動這個方案的規劃及內容"},{"start":611.607,"end":635.649,"text":"所以主委這個部分也要請你們多加說明因為你們只有在擴散力引人才練場域之後然後帶入展應用那其實對一般的民眾來講他們沒有辦法了解說你們講得這麼籠統到底你們是要做哪些那再來呢我要問的是說其中你們引人才的部分你們將串聯嘉義台南高雄的技職學校協助技職轉型"},{"start":636.61,"end":655.918,"text":"那其中參旅、健康照護都是優先推行的目標但是學界是有疑慮了那以往國科會你們就常常被詬病說你們是重科學情人文那這一次的人才培育計畫呢是不是又有可能將大量的資源依註到注重在生技、醫學這樣的項目而忽視了參與的部分那主委那針對這個部分呢國科會你們70億這個預算你們如何運用"},{"start":664.929,"end":689.155,"text":"我們其實是要協助百工百業所以不只是在科技提供的領域連需求端剛剛委員也有提到餐飲業、旅館業、休閒業等等這些其實都在我們將來要協助的範圍裡面希望能夠讓他們可以引進AI但是AI的提供端我們也會補助需求端我們也會補助"},{"start":690.075,"end":705.33,"text":"現在在學界一例就是說你們有沒有一個審查的機制你們未來的資源是不是會合理的分配或者是你們只是把產業框進來但是預算資源又沒有合理分配只是偏重某些的領域不會只偏重某些領域我們會全面性的來協助"},{"start":706.671,"end":717.419,"text":"謝主委,所以本席希望國科會為你們推動各項政策要落實產學溝通溝通真的非常重要尤其國科會你們這次將參與健康這個列為是AI科技推動的重點目標所以一定要針對產學合作這個需求來制定計劃才能夠創造產學雙贏的這個榮景這個部分不知道說"},{"start":731.691,"end":735.162,"text":"如果你們有沒有領略到說學界他們的憂慮在哪裡?焦慮在哪裡?"},{"start":737.196,"end":739.178,"text":"主要就是我剛剛講的你們不能只是把產業框進來之後你們誘導資源偏重在某些領域這樣對這些學界也是不公平的好 謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":763.801,"end":766.607,"text":"謝謝陳秀寳委員那主委請回再來是羅志強委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:01:46 - 12:14:36","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"155012","gazette":{"lineno":961,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（12時1分）謝謝主席，請吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：陳委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委好。主委，在2022年底ChatGPT公布之後，國科會就有意識到這個AI聊天機器人的文化侵略性質很強，所以也宣布我們臺灣要自己製造自己的繁體中文語言模型，也就是TAIDE，TAIDE建置計畫從2023年4月底啟動之後，大概經過一年的時間，在今年的5月初有舉辦成果發表，本席在5月底的時候有試用過，發現其實TAIDE的資料庫有許多資料沒有即時更新，本席在質詢的時候也有詢問過主委，也要求國科會應該要增加TAIDE的資料庫，並且設定出定期更新的時程，我想請教主委目前辦理的狀況怎樣？對於資料庫的增加，還有整個的期程，我們如何訂定？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，我們也持續編列預算，從明年開始也希望增加它的應用，誠如陳委員所提到的，我們在運用的時候，那個訓練資料非常重要，我們現在有不同的管道獲得資料，一個是公開的資料，是免費的，不需要授權的，另外一種就是需要授權的資料，我們也增加需要授權的資料，需要編列經費，因為有些資料需要授權金。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委，您的意思是說，如果有一些公開資料不需要授權的，你們會儘快把這些資料更新進去，對於需要授權、需要付費的這個部分，你們也編列預算來增加，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：那對於更新的時程你們怎麼訂定？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：資料更新是一直在持續進行的，現在幾個重點的推動第一個會以公部門的資料為主，所以我們在年底會推出一些公部門的應用，包含立院答詢的這些系統也在規劃之中。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以是不定期的來更新？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：資料更新本來就一直在蒐集，我們在國研院下面有一個團隊，他們有一直持續在蒐集資料。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。TAIDE目前已經算是訓練有成的階段，後續呢？TAIDE雖然是一個資訊正確的繁體中文語言模型，那後續國科會這邊有沒有對TAIDE的推廣有什麼計畫跟目標？我們預計跟哪些產業合作？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們將來在智慧科技大南方產業生態系從事應用的時候，我們也會把它用上來。將來我們會結合產業的發展，希望產業進來以後，能夠針對各行各業、訓練各行各業有這種需求模型，我們會從明年的計畫開始陸續的推動，所以我們的預算不只能協助政府做這部分的應用，將來各行各業的應用才是最重要的。"],["陳委員秀寳：後續呢？後續有沒有跨國的推廣、合作的使用計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果將來繁體中文系統的使用和應用，其他國家、地區有需要的話，我們當然就能透過我們的產業界擴展到國際市場。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為這個不同於那種開放性的，就是比較open的AI使用，它是比較有選擇性的。其實國科會建置TAIDE這個系統很不容易，而且這也是正確的方向，其實大家都有體會到，目前在AI的使用上，其實簡體字版對我們臺灣是非常的不友善，而且很多訊息都是不正確的，所以說，如果我們能夠有一個成果展現出來，希望可以持續的精進TAIDE的資料庫，向世界展現我們有可以正確回答臺灣相關問題的AI，這個部分也希望國科會這邊除了我剛才提到的資料庫建置、補充，以及隨時更新之外，也能夠積極的來推廣，我們要有一個正確的聲音來替我們臺灣在國際上發聲。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員的提醒非常重要，我們也很同意，我們希望往這個方向來努力。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。接下來我想請教主委，其實今天也有滿多的委員針對這個問題。審計部有針對國科會的延攬人才計畫中的博士級研究人員的延攬情形提出檢討且指出，其中有178位的人員接受補助延攬已經達10到22次，更有123位的人員是從102年開始就接受延攬補助。本席覺得，針對延攬人才的補助，我們的初衷是希望這些人才在計畫結束之後，可以轉任進學校、產業或是研究機構，但是像這樣不斷地接受延攬的狀況，主委，你對這個狀況有什麼想法跟方法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我覺得這的確對這些人才來講有些不公平的地方，其實我們已經有提醒用人的單位在接受國科會的補助時，希望他們能夠協助這些人才來做適當的生涯發展，不要一個聘約結束就沒有。"],["陳委員秀寳：對，本席要指出的就是，其實這些人員是計畫人力，他們不是任職，他們等於是非典型勞工，其實這樣一份工作對他們是沒有長期聘用的保證，相對來說，這也是對他們生涯發展的阻礙，希望國科會能夠針對這樣的狀況建立審查、排查的機制，而不僅是學術單位沒有開缺的問題，其實產業界也是需要人才的，既然有人才的需求，國科會更應該縫合計畫的研究人才跟產業人才的落差，讓這個人才可以延續上，因為這些人才的出路在哪裡？如果他們一直困在這些短期的研究計畫裡面，他們的出路何在？這個部分國科會是不是能更積極面對產業和學界的需求，把人才做適度的協助和投入？主委，你現在對這個部分有什麼看法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員！我們認同，接下來新一期的計畫，我們會提醒申請用人的單位，如果國科會有補助的話，我們當然是期待用人的單位能夠積極的來協助他們使用的這些人才，而將來的生涯發展也要協助他們，不要期限到了、聘約結束了就不管了，希望他們也能夠積極協助。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主委啦！你也是有意識到這個問題的存在，所以希望這個部分，除了審計部有對你們提出檢討之外，你們本身對這個問題的產生，就是為什麼會有這樣的現象？有了這樣的現象之後，你們要如何去協助跟解決？國科會必須要有一個機制。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來我要針對大南方計畫來就教主委，首先，本席要肯認主委在大南方計畫的目標，針對AI的蓬勃發展，不僅是科技產業需要導入AI跟高科技的協助，在本席的選區有很多傳產，如果傳產整個製程、營運以及研發可以從AI的發展中得到助益，本席相信我們邁向智慧科技島的速度就會更快，所以本席也十分支持國科會提出並推出適合百工百業的AI應用，並且發展系統性的應用來為百工百業服務。但是本席還是要先關心一下布拉格IC設計基地的狀況，媒體有報導，我們布拉格的IC設計基地還沒有開始營運，本席詢問之後，你們說你們還在調整方向，我想要瞭解一下，所謂的「調整方向」的內容跟到底這個基地何時才能開始提供培訓服務？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為我們5月剛接任的時候，我們對合作的內容還不是很清楚，加上接下來捷克又有選舉，所以他們政府的組織、負責的人員也會有一些更替，然後執行的單位，包含大學端和政府負責部門之間也有一些不同的看法，所以經過一段時間的溝通和協調，現在已經慢慢的在釐清可行的合作方案。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以我們還沒有辦法知道什麼時候可以提供培訓服務？甚至什麼時候可以有第一批的人才到臺灣來做進一步的學習？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實服務已經開始了，因為學界之間的互動本來就不會因為政治……"],["陳委員秀寳：一直都有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是政府間的看法不一樣，就是捷克政府跟我們這邊因為還牽涉到外交部，「臺捷韌性計畫」牽涉到好幾個部會，現在國科會負責的是人才培育的部分，我們現在已經跟他們溝通到一個程度，我認為年底之前應該會定案。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委的意思是年底之前就會有好消息？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，應該會定案。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實本席一系列的問題都是聚焦在人才的培訓、延攬、留才及育才，我希望國科會可以當人才培育的領頭羊，既然我們看見國際的需求，也瞭解產業的困境，我們要輔導傳產進入智慧科技這個領域，也希望智慧科技在臺灣各產業、各領域都能夠有均衡的發展。","延續剛剛提到的，114年國科會跨部會推動智慧科技大南方產業生態系推動方案，預計5年要投入300億元的預算，並且將分四大領域來推動，但是在預算說明會上，國科會並沒有對細部的計畫及預算的使用詳細說明，這麼大規模的預算，我相信民眾也會想要知道國科會要推動的這個方案的規劃和內容，所以主委，這個部分要請你們多加說明，因為你們只有在「擴算力、引人才、鏈場域」之後帶入「展應用」，其實這對一般民眾來講，他們沒有辦法瞭解，因為你們講的那麼籠統，到底你們是要做哪些？","再來我要問的是，其中「引人才」的部分，你們將串連嘉義、臺南、高雄的技職學校來協助技職轉型，其中餐旅和健康照護都是優先推行的目標，但是學界對此是有疑慮的，以往國科會就常常被人垢病你們是「重科學、輕人文」，這一次的人才培育計畫是不是又有可能將大量的資源挹注在生技、醫學這樣的項目，而忽略、忽視了餐旅的部分？主委，針對這個部分，國科會70億元的預算你們要如何運用？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實我們是要協助百工百業，所以不只是科技領域，連需求端，剛剛委員也有提到餐飲業、旅館業、休閒業等等，其實這些都在將來我們要協助的範圍裡面，我們希望能夠讓他們引進AI，但是AI的提供端我們也會補助，需求端我們也會補助。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為現在學界一律都是說你們沒有審查的機制，未來你們的資源是不是會合理的分配？或者你們只是把產業匡進來，但是預算資源又沒有合理的分配，只是偏重在某些領域？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們不會只偏重某些領域，我們會全面性的來協助。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主委！本席希望國科會在推動各項政策時要落實產學溝通，溝通真的非常重要，尤其國科會這次將餐旅、健康列為AI科技推動的重點目標，所以你們一定要針對產學合作這個需求來制定計畫，這樣才能夠創造產學雙贏的榮景，這個部分，不知道主委有沒有領略到學界的憂慮在哪裡？焦慮在哪裡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們焦慮在覺得可能被排除在外，但是我們不會，我們會公開、公平、公正的徵求計畫，不會有特定族群被排除在外。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝主委！主要就是我剛剛講的，你們不能只把產業匡進來之後，你們又把資源偏重在某些領域，這樣對這些學界也是不公平的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，以上，謝謝！"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝陳秀寳委員，主委請回。","再來是羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:05:54","end_time":"2024-09-30T12:13:39+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155011","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","duration":354,"start_time":"2024-09-30T12:07:45+08:00","featur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謝謝主席 有請人事長好 請說人事長委員好 人事長你好好 我時間有限了我想看一下我們今天的業務報告裡面我想友善生育職場托育環境應該是我們很重要的政策不管各部會應該都有這個共識我想問一下幾年前立法院托育中心有說建制相關的新聞那一直到現在我想要問一下相關的進度或者是相關的空間"},{"start":33.116,"end":51.792,"text":"我這裡大概累計到今年6月30號機關自行設置的職場托育設施大概有195家這裏面托育中心含居家式的托育有16家幼兒園61家職場互助教保服務中心有118家"},{"start":53.643,"end":53.743,"text":"主席"},{"start":78.996,"end":102.368,"text":"有這個可能性那一棟大樓就會騰空另外還有華光特定專用區聯合辦公大樓新建之後還有目前南北棟有些單位應該也要搬離開那不知道人事總處你們針對你剛剛講的數字如果人事長你自己覺得滿意了不需要再增設嗎還是你覺得我們有更積極的可以把我剛剛現在講的這兩個空間做托育空間的提早規劃"},{"start":103.618,"end":132.279,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上我非常重視這個就是藍北洞的還有我們能力學院在符合文教會館那裡我都請我們同仁去找專業的來評鑑因為他有樓層的限制還有評書的限制還有消防安檢的限制這個到最後藍北洞都沒有符合這個條件然後我們能力學院那裡沒有這個是以現況去做改造的"},{"start":132.779,"end":132.979,"text":"新建公務機關"},{"start":150.852,"end":169.859,"text":"臺灣各地目前還有非常多聯合辦公大樓的新建計劃我相信人事長你一定知道你是不是都有確保的掌握他們是不是有相關的規劃空間而且是提早規劃還是又會遇到到時候蓋完之後又相關的建築法規不合消防法規不合導致沒有辦法設置應有而托育空間"},{"start":171.219,"end":176.762,"text":"這個部分你有掌握嗎?應該不會 因為公共工程委員會都有要求那我想這個部分我們辦公室也會再跟人事總處一起努力我們一起後續去盤點一下在新建的大樓部分還有我剛剛跟您說的體育署要騰空那個部分或者是南北棟遷移的這個部分如果有相關的"},{"start":193.552,"end":193.752,"text":"：陳培瑜"},{"start":205.302,"end":234.524,"text":"好 謝謝人事長最後一個時間我來請問一下這次有人跟我們陳情了齁我請問一下如果今天早上您要在10點鐘在高雄有一個會議而且是公務員的出差行程我們假設您該會6點50從家裡出發搭上7點31分的高鐵到高雄開會然後回來繼續辦公我想要請問一下前面他搭車那段時間也就是在9點以前這段時間到底算不算上班時間算不算工時"},{"start":239.328,"end":244.472,"text":"人事總署在108年有一個含釋你會說把判斷的權限下放給各個機關結果就是導致就委員來跟我們陳情而且是我們的公務員來跟我們陳情"},{"start":256.601,"end":270.474,"text":"人事長您的想法是應該要算啊對不對但是你們的含釋就給了各個機關自由詮釋的空間我相信你一定也不希望我們的公務機關帶頭吃公務人員的豆腐對不對你覺得這件事情我們可以怎麼解決"},{"start":271.454,"end":289.593,"text":"就毛委員你給我們這個那我們不要個案啦我們通案來盤點到底相關出了什麼事情你就把個案的個資弄掉嘛那我們就把個案轉通案來做這樣那我們有沒有機會不要只解決個案的問題一定有各個部會在你不知道的情況之下沒有跟你講好情況下他就把這個解釋就不算公實捏"},{"start":293.857,"end":307.027,"text":"其實說真的我們務實來看這個差異性會有啦就是我們就用個案轉成通案的方式來處理這樣會比較安全因為我可能手上個案也不過兩三個你有機會收集到更多的個案嗎"},{"start":307.868,"end":307.908,"text":"主席"},{"start":323.058,"end":337.934,"text":"還有就是未來公務人員上班時間外出差的工時計算這件事情你們應該有更友善的措施那你108的那個喊到現在如果大家有解釋上的問題或是理解上的困難我們怎麼樣協助各個行政機關來解決這個問題好不好"},{"start":340.106,"end":340.126,"text":"陳委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:07:45 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Eats"},{"start":193.142,"end":213.38,"text":"這兩家一旦合併．絕對造成市場的壟斷．所以這個部分只要公平會應該從各個面向包含消費者的權益．我剛才講剛才．在沒有合併之前都有片面突襲式的決斷式的就提高這個服務平台費"},{"start":214.241,"end":214.361,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":229.958,"end":258.471,"text":"對於外送員極為不合理即便縣市政府想要來做來做一些補償來做一些那個把它那個修正檢討但是呢最後在法令上還是有利於業者所以這些真的是一定要要高度重視的好給大家看一下這個是呢我們辦公室我們的update當時我們就曾經就是把我們常常吃的比如說"},{"start":259.871,"end":278.084,"text":"術食店的排骨飯乳肉飯光是你店家去吃到你在平台上的這個去做外賣他大概就是增加40塊到50塊為什麼增加那麼多就是因為服務平台費的關係"},{"start":279.665,"end":289.39,"text":"在國外其實包含美國有幾個城市他們像紐約舊金山他們都有強制規定你的服務平台費應該是有一個上限的但是我們沒有我們就是由業者自行來去決定所以這樣會造成一個就是這個價格為什麼我們就說為什麼現在消費物價一直漲大家都一直覺得說荷包越來越薄"},{"start":307.06,"end":307.24,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":337.04,"end":338.843,"text":"外送員外送員因為事實上長期以來外送員是弱勢的我剛剛舉一個例子光是要不要做強制保險地方的自治條例被中央整個的打回票"},{"start":352.961,"end":359.626,"text":"所以未來外送員在經過合併的過程裡面他們的權益如何做到合理的保障那當然還有我們在整個的業界這個是一個大家非常關注的這樣的產業平台的一個合併如何能夠在市場極度的這個獨佔的狀況之下還能夠創造這個產業它的一個合理的發展也非常重要"},{"start":380.222,"end":380.462,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":396.363,"end":396.403,"text":"謝謝大家 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Eats，這兩家一旦合併，絕對造成市場的壟斷，所以這個部分公平會應該從各個面向，包含消費者的權益，我剛才講，foodpanda在沒有合併之前都有片面突襲式的、決斷式的提高平臺服務費，那麼更不要說未來假使真的變壟斷的話，在市場整個獨占的狀況之下，消費者的權益在哪裡？外送員的權益在哪裡？今天我沒有時間跟你討論。最近高高行還有一個判例，對於外送員極為不合理，即便縣市政府想要做一些修正、檢討，但是最後在法令上還是有利於業者，所以這一些真的一定要高度重視。","好，我給大家看一下，這是我們辦公室update的資料，當時我們就曾經把我們常常吃的，比如說速食店、排骨飯、魯肉飯等等，光是你到店家去吃跟你從平臺上去點外賣，中間的價差大概就增加40塊到50塊，為什麼增加那麼多？就是因為平臺服務費的關係。在國外，包含美國的幾大城市，像紐約、舊金山，他們都有強制規定平臺服務費的收費上限，但是我們沒有，我們就是由業者自行去決定，所以這樣會造成一個狀況，就是價格的部分，我們就說為什麼現在消費物價一直漲，大家都一直覺得荷包越來越薄，其實外賣的也非常多。可是我剛剛講魯肉飯，當然我舉的例子是很有名的金峰魯肉飯，你到現場吃跟你透過平臺去買，中間就差40塊，對於很多上班族也好，對於平民老百姓來講，你一頓可能吃一個魯肉飯還不夠，對不對？所以在這一點，消費者的權益在哪裡？拜託我們公平會能夠去考量。","另外，我剛剛特別講到外送員，因為事實上長期以來外送員是弱勢的，我剛剛舉一個例子，光是要不要強制保險，地方的自治條例被中央整個打回票，所以未來外送員在今後合併的過程裡面，他們的權益如何做到合理的保障？當然還有此案是大家非常關注的，外送產業平臺的合併如何能夠在市場極度獨占的狀況之下，還能夠創造這個產業合理的發展也非常重要。","另外，包含你有沒有一些相關的法規，甚至你們可以去建議，比如勞動部的相關法規，如何讓它更完善。我們希望這個合併是要大家互利互贏，而不只是這兩個平臺的勝利，也要保障消費者的權利跟外送員的權利。我希望你們服務業競爭處在實質審查時，第一個，你們讓他補件，但是我希望你們要掌握進度，而我們剛才特別提到的這些相關的權益，也一定要能夠加以保障，好不好？謝謝大家，謝謝。"],["主席：請蘇清泉，蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","請何欣純，何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","請傅崐萁，傅崐萁，傅崐萁委員不在。","請徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩委員不在。","請葉元之，葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","請陳冠廷，陳冠廷，陳冠廷委員不在。","請游顥，游顥，游顥委員不在。","請謝衣鳯，謝衣鳯，謝衣鳯委員不在。","請賴士葆，賴士葆，賴士葆委員不在。","請高金素梅，高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","請廖偉翔，廖偉翔，廖偉翔不在。","登記發言的委員，除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員謝衣鳯、葉元之所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢跟未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那我們一樣請人事長 請蘇人事長黃委員好 欸 陳事長好 人事長剛剛大家 前面兩個委員提到這個連假的問題本期本來沒有要討論 但是聽到您剛剛回應 我有一些想法想請教當然第一個當然就提到中秋節連假的部分 如果當然禮拜三就沒什麼好要求了但如果比如說碰到禮拜二或禮拜四 有沒有機會連假"},{"start":32.678,"end":56.059,"text":"剛剛人事長的意思是說這樣會影響到我們金融市場但我想跟人事長說明我想金融市場應該沒那麼脆弱我想美股光是美股一年大概休市大概10天到12天甚至在連假前一天他可能只開半天的這個股票交易日所以如果這個金融市場是考量原因之一的話我想跟人事長報告其實我想分享這個應該不是太大的問題人事長你怎麼看"},{"start":57.264,"end":72.823,"text":"金融市場是我們考量的因素之一因為只要移動這個放假日我們必須要考慮到企業一般民間的還有金融業相關行業我們都一定會考量所以剛才我的"},{"start":74.282,"end":98.712,"text":"答案是很明確的禮拜三的話大概不會去變動如果是落在2跟4我覺得這是可以討論可是我們為什麼還要再去跟相關的人去做一些雖然我們的規定剛改啦規定剛改啦但是如果全民的期待是這樣我覺得很多事情應該要持一種比較開放的態度來"},{"start":99.298,"end":115.487,"text":"董事長你剛剛就是其他的假期問題比如說你剛剛說你要去尊重內政部我們也希望說其他單位也尊重一下我們人事長好不好如果提說你要放讓他這個連一下連起來我覺得其他單位也要尊重一下人事長不能都是你尊重別人啊別人也要尊重一下人事長啊對不對"},{"start":117.797,"end":132.79,"text":"各部會本身我們有一套溝通協調的一個默契的好了沒關係再來今天今天的主題我想問一下到底我們行政院是出推動了這個築潮優利帶的評選方式這個應該是你們的業務吧我們的這個評選方式怎麼評選一開始怎麼評選你們怎麼決定承作的這個銀行"},{"start":140.475,"end":167.338,"text":"我們會找一些專家寫者來就是看每一家銀行他提供的他的一個貸款的條件相關的然後選出幾家像這一次的是台銀跟中信然後在貸款有時候必須要去考量到銀行他基於風險管理有些條件像買比較"},{"start":169.259,"end":193.246,"text":"小的欸那個就是食品左右的他因為他要有一些財務考量而且要考慮到他的因為每一家銀行都有他的這個我了解啦當然有一個風管的我想公務人員頭當他本身他的在銀行在金融業他的條件本身就是相對比較好的啦那今天你們今天竟然推了這個竹巢優利帶他具有的應該是"},{"start":194.326,"end":222.562,"text":"某種程度上是官方有點背書啊因為我們評選出來了嘛評選的出兩家如果今天評選出兩家的條件是長這樣子那如果最後跟這個要去申代的人說啊這評數或什麼條件不符合那不就回到一般的金融市場了嗎那這樣其實你就不用特別評選啦因為一般公務人員講真的你們是公務人員就很清楚如果你們到銀行去申代不管哪一家他今天就算沒有去乘坐你們的這個主草優利貸"},{"start":223.422,"end":223.542,"text":"主席"},{"start":250.433,"end":275.95,"text":"你們的QA裡面官方說法是可以但是官方說法是說可以結果到了承作銀行的時候又找一大堆條件說這個不行甚至在他一開始在承作銀行的這個官網上面就直接講說購買小套房不可以身帶他連評都沒有評但是你們官網可以評所以這就是問題了嘛今天你提出來的這個條件長這樣子結果承作銀行完全不給你面子啊他還沒有尊重你啊他就直接說不行那這怎麼辦"},{"start":278.17,"end":297.565,"text":"我跟委員報告一下,我們會去跟銀行溝通,就是針對這些小坪數的,因為有時候公務人員因為他整個財力負擔的問題,我們會請銀行未來在做這方面的核貸的時候,盡量給予比較寬鬆的。"},{"start":298.686,"end":308.27,"text":"那當然剛才委員提的也有可能是屬於一種個案嘛因為每一個個體他本身的跟銀行往來的record還有他本身相關的"},{"start":310.736,"end":330.935,"text":"動產不動產相關的資料信用的資料事實上當然各一行各樣的瘋狂但是我們今天提到一致性的問題啦因為今天我想這個以15坪為例啦一個公務人員一般的基層公務人員他的薪水不可能隨隨便便買個兩三千萬的房子我想在臺北市也好臺中市也好雙北也好15坪喔隨隨便便就破一千了"},{"start":331.576,"end":359.258,"text":"所以對一般的公教人員來講其實壓力也是很大更何況現在很多單身的如果今天他只能買15坪以上我想這個政策推出來本來是好意但是如果你只能買15坪以上的物件的話某種程度上你等於是用這個方案去鼓勵公務人只能買更大的房子我想這跟這個我們現在要居住正義希望房價能降溫是背道而鎖的立場所以拜託一下我們這個人總處要跟這些承重銀行講如果今天"},{"start":360.038,"end":384.054,"text":"還有設這麼多條件才能承作那其實基本上你就不用推這方案了大家自己去申請就好因為今天他今天能夠放在你們的官網上面某種程度上是所有鼓勵大家去跟他聲帶他可以拿到全台灣最好的這個名單客戶名單你們都是又是客戶啊結果他莫名其妙可以得到這個名單那他要付出相關的成本不能說我跟一般銀行承作條件是一樣的好不好"},{"start":385.094,"end":385.394,"text":"主席主席主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:00:56 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馬上有請主委請陳主委委員早"},{"start":22.475,"end":47.462,"text":"主委早有一件嚴重的事情可能要跟主委特別說明請工程會站在工程會的立場仔細的把關什麼嚴重的事情我們國軍弟兄用的防彈背心那個防彈纖維部過去這幾年從2017年一直到現在設斃的案子幾乎是年年發生"},{"start":48.762,"end":75.892,"text":"越來越誇張越來越嚴重這個防彈衛星不是只有軍人要用而已我們的調查局我們的小鎮屬監獄通通都要用我把它列出來了我現在列出來的列表主委你可以很清楚的看得出來背後在胡搞瞎搞的人幾乎是同一批人幾乎是同一批人這件事情有多嚴重"},{"start":78.002,"end":104.935,"text":"請主委仔細看請主委仔細看我不知道這個防彈背心當初防彈纖維布價格是怎麼定的但是業界大家都知道利潤很高因為利潤很高你會發現有一些莫名其妙根本從來沒有聽過在做防彈纖維布的公司甚至是上市櫃的公司全部跑來飆"},{"start":106.67,"end":118.728,"text":"得標了以後再轉給其他的公司來處理那等於就是我去參與那個標案我只是要賺一手啦那下面"},{"start":120.202,"end":146.995,"text":"由其他轉包的公司來處理結果導致的狀況來我們就先看我們的國軍防範纖維部啊竟然跑去中國搞劣質的東西來搞到什麼搞到從中國進來啊七千多萬七千多萬就cover了結果我們啊國防部開的標啊價格是兩三億喔"},{"start":148.174,"end":162.582,"text":"立略很高嘛才有人這樣胡搞瞎搞嘛好來請教一下主委啊第一個工程會有沒有注意到這個現象第二個在這工程會的立場對於這種系統性的弊案可以怎麼處理"},{"start":166.888,"end":182.135,"text":"這幾個個案有涉及違法的部分有的已經有採取停權的措施不過這個問題是涉及到整個國軍或警察相關的生命的安全所以工程會願意針對剛才委員提供的這些"},{"start":183.231,"end":183.451,"text":"主委說"},{"start":208.888,"end":210.77,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":228.217,"end":238.816,"text":"大同的大眾電腦的轉包給這個公衛公司後面有全程國際有龍泉科技這個叫李信勳的"},{"start":240.458,"end":245.261,"text":"2022年我去追國防部我那時候雖然不在立法院但是站在台灣公益的立場"},{"start":271.411,"end":296.394,"text":"這些垃圾事情就是要把它清乾淨我們同意委員的我去問國防部為什麼大同大眾公衛沒有停權那個說弊案整個都起來了嘛主委你知道國防部怎麼回應嗎說公共工程委員會這邊齁經過調解調解成立啊所以就沒有辦停權停權跟調解成立無關啊是嘛"},{"start":297.569,"end":321.432,"text":"所以那時候國防部出來講的時候公共工程委員會要站出來講啊媒體都有披露啊你國防部胡說八道啊調解是私人廠商的糾紛嘛就理業爭議啊停權是公共利益嘛該停權的是不是要停權是不是對沒錯沒有錯嘛那當然公共工程委員會委的就看不懂啊"},{"start":322.216,"end":345.146,"text":"你們自己都有下去看阿全程攏權影響採購公正阿甚至有的法院都判刑了但我現在問題就來啦設施廠商大戶公衛有停權嗎我剛執勤以前我還去查沒有阿目前就大眾停權阿對啊阿其他公司為什麼不停權"},{"start":346.368,"end":369.884,"text":"其他公司要查一下是不是有列案或者是說符合停權的要件來來來來來來我全部都幫你列了報告委員這個委員應該對停權的制度非常理解因為基本上是機關發動啦那我們這邊就是所以是機關待於發動嘛對不對我們去了解一下啦來看一下齁哪些機關待於發動我們國防部待於發動啊"},{"start":373.991,"end":400.825,"text":"我的法務部矯正署待於發動啊我的法務部調查局待於發動啊我現在就看不懂了啊不秀的廠商拿不符合規格的東西甚至有些是從中國搞進來的結果呢大把的銀子賺了以後至於我們的國軍弟兄我們的檢調同仁我們的矯正同仁的安危與不顧"},{"start":402.552,"end":422.9,"text":"結果這種不肖的廠商到現在還沒有停權一而再再而三實隨智慧今天主委或者是副主委您給的答案是說那個負責的機關沒有報上來嘛好可不可以去了解一下負責的機關為什麼沒有報上來需要多久"},{"start":432.085,"end":454.972,"text":"發一個函請他們一個禮拜說明阿為什麼到現在沒有報庭權放水喔好我們一個禮拜發文沒有問題一個禮拜之內發文阿請這些相關的機關一個禮拜回覆阿了解可能需要一段時間阿這些機關了解需要多少時間"},{"start":456.451,"end":485.087,"text":"需要多少時間第二個事情請國防部說明2022年為什麼拿公共工程委員會的條解當擋箭牌那可能他對是新聞對外講的是不是不是喔這是國防部正式發的聲明喔請國防部講清楚喔為什麼拿公共工程委員會的條解當擋箭牌幫特定的廠商放水喔可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":487.227,"end":508.281,"text":"今天主委講得很明確了嘛調解是私人廠商的事情嘛停權是公共利益的事嘛當初國防部發那個函是在幫誰護航幫誰遮醜利率那麼高搞這種爛事不用負責然後結果竟然是國防部出來擦脂抹粉這樣對嗎"},{"start":511.397,"end":524.095,"text":"主委我敢講我一定負責啦你請公共工程委員會的同仁回去查一下新聞啦當初就是國防部發的新聞啦韓巡國防部當初誰發這個新聞誰做這個決定的可以嗎"},{"start":527.503,"end":541.079,"text":"我們會去查這個新聞了解那必要的時候會請國防部能夠針對相關的政府採購法的規定比較能夠也請國防部能夠要了解"},{"start":543.044,"end":543.064,"text":"黃國昌"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:52:17 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我們有請陳珠瑋請陳珠瑋"},{"start":12.126,"end":41.186,"text":"委員長主委我想最近我們高鐵南延屏東這個案子這個在媒體上也沸沸揚揚那我記得上一次會期的時候也有針對這個進入高雄市區這個方案也提出過討論那我知道主委曾經當過高雄市的副市長那針對目前交通部在媒體上提到的一個潛動工法造成最小的影響的這個"},{"start":42.226,"end":47.809,"text":"高鐵延伸屏東路線合訂過經過交通部重新檢視之後發現施工有限制包括將來營運也會有困難所以建議改採"},{"start":71.127,"end":71.647,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":96.587,"end":121.244,"text":"高雄市大部分大概沒有什麼意見但對施工的期程造成的影響那麼也有一些疑慮那不過目前那個那個路廊已經有了嘛因為鐵路地下化那個路廊在那裡所以將來採取淺頓在那個路廊旁邊在旁邊然後進入高雄市但是有一部分是要"},{"start":122.245,"end":122.586,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":138.846,"end":161.428,"text":"我想這也是我們希望共同努力的目標那因為我知道主委前陣子也有特別到宜蘭去協調這個高鐵延伸到宜蘭的這部分的一個工程那主委是不是讓朋友可以關心一下也主動來協調一下南業屏東這個案子那高鐵延伸到屏東的部分現在就是路線要確定"},{"start":162.884,"end":183.924,"text":"路線確定之後才有辦法進行環評那二階環評大概要試劑要一年審查到半年一年半以上那這部分要花點時間所以要趕快確定路線才能夠進行環評後面的程序所以這個如果這個沒有確定會影響到整個後面的程序"},{"start":184.923,"end":199.654,"text":"好再麻煩謝謝主委那主委另外就是因為我們剛好今天我們有一個Santor颱風也要從這個南部這邊來登陸啦那我知道之前堪米颱風也重創了我們臺灣很多的一個"},{"start":200.414,"end":200.595,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":220.603,"end":242.495,"text":"上次坎米颱風每個縣市都有災損有的嚴重有的比較不那麼嚴重那屏東當然有些是土石流或者是液體那我跟兩位副主委都分批到各縣市去看屏東也是我去看所以目前已經在審議陸續核定各縣市的補助的要求"},{"start":243.908,"end":262.937,"text":"主委那依屏東來看屏東目前報出來的金額是高達8.2億但是我們的年度災害準備金額剩下3.6億有4.6億的一個缺口那針對我們非六都這個財政比較困窮的縣市我們公共工程委員會是不是有這個加速審查"},{"start":267.486,"end":287.957,"text":"平東目前是合訂了5.36億那跟平東縣政府提出的請求已經接近非常接近所以這部分也希望能夠給平東縣政府就上次的災損那能夠盡速來修復尤其有一個議題的部分那部分可能需要從長期"},{"start":289.358,"end":306.126,"text":"對,因為我們屏東這個馬上接了這個風胎之前的受損的部分一直還沒有處理所以我們也是希望我們公共工程委員會能夠加快速度然後協助縣政府來做重建那另外針對這個"},{"start":308.147,"end":335.674,"text":"公共工程這個落後的部分我想本席之前也一直有提出很多的質詢那根據我們調閱的一個相關資料我們公共工程的一個進度原本在111年到112年有好轉但是今年又有大幅的一個落後那目前我們調閱的相關各縣市目前統計的數量大概有600多件而且都集中在屏東、台南、高雄、台東的南部跟東部這個地方"},{"start":336.894,"end":353.437,"text":"那加上我們現在開明颱風又增加了地方政府施工的一個數量,我們很擔心我們的工程量能不足,這樣手上找不到,還要工程會拖萬年,請問這部分主委怎麼來協助我們的地方政府?"},{"start":354.95,"end":370.889,"text":"目前工程會的作法是針對年執行預算一億以上由工程會來列管是工程性質的採購其他就是各主辦機關他去列管或是主辦機關的上級的主管機關要去列管"},{"start":371.99,"end":392.117,"text":"我們除了定期的集合之外每個月都會開獨島會報會了解各部門各縣市政府對重要的公共建設進度如何都會有所掌握如果有所比較落後的縣市或部會工程會都會來提醒"},{"start":393.991,"end":420.104,"text":"這一點也很重要這點再麻煩因為畢竟非六都的這個整個人力也好財政狀況也好真的是除六都數天天所以真的需要我們工程會來全力協助那另外我再請教主委就是說因為我們看到有些縣市的工程他們為了要順利發包那有時候會採取一個檢向的一個發報的一個權宜措施但是也發現了在檢向完之後"},{"start":421.596,"end":422.937,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":443.692,"end":471.699,"text":"一個公共設施他都有核定一定的這個設計內容跟預算那麼如果要採取減向發包那必須在合約裡面續名將來是怎麼擴充擴充的方式內容預算的增加都要非常清楚才能夠採取減向發包那不希望說為了發包而減向導致後面的重要的"},{"start":472.299,"end":474.28,"text":"徐富癸徐富癸徐富癸"},{"start":498.434,"end":514.719,"text":"這一點我們還是要提醒我們工程會我們應該要訂立更詳細的一個法律規範這樣不然你可能該做的不做不該做的做一大堆也不對這部分再請主委這邊幫忙那最後我想剛剛很多委員都提到碳費的部分那這部分還是要請工程委員會"},{"start":515.359,"end":515.599,"text":"徐富癸委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:43:11 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11:52:06","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155007","gazette":{"lineno":588,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時43分）謝謝主席，有請陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["徐委員富癸：主委早，辛苦了。主委，最近高鐵南延屏東這個案子在媒體上也吵得沸沸揚揚，我記得上個會期也有針對進入高雄市區這個方案提出過討論。我知道主委曾經當過高雄市副市長，針對目前交通部在媒體上提到的潛盾工法造成最小影響的這個專業程度來看，主委針對這部分有沒有什麼特別的建議或想法？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝委員。因為高鐵延伸屏東的路線之前有核定過，經過交通部再重行檢視之後，發現這個施工有些限制，包括將來的營運也會有些困難，所以建議改採進入高雄市，就是在高雄車站設站，然後經過鳳山再到屏東。因為之前在高雄做鐵路地下化的時候，長時間的施工導致交通黑暗期很長，一般高雄選出的民意代表都很怕再碰到這種狀況，所以基本上他們對於進入高雄市大部分大概沒有什麼意見，但對施工期程造成的影響也有一些疑慮。不過目前因為路廊已經有了，因為鐵路地下化那個路廊在那裡，所以將來採取潛盾，在那個路廊旁邊，然後進入高雄市，但是有一部分是要採取地面上作業，因為總是要接到高雄車站，陳部長也認為用潛盾把期程縮短，施工介面整合好，減少交通影響是可行的。"],["徐委員富癸：我想這也是我們希望共同努力的目標，因為我知道主委前陣子也有特別到宜蘭去協調高鐵延伸到宜蘭這部分的工程，主委是不是可以抽空關心我們一下，也主動來協調一下南延屏東這個案子？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，高鐵延伸到屏東的部分，現在就是路線要確定，路線確定之後才有辦法進行環評，二階環評大概要四季、一年，審查差不多要半年，所以至少一年半以上，這部分要花點時間，所以要趕快確定路線，才能夠進行環評的程序……"],["徐委員富癸：後面的程序。"],["陳主任委員金德：如果這個沒有確定，會影響到整個後面的程序。"],["徐委員富癸：好，再麻煩，謝謝主委。另外，因為剛好今天有一個山陀兒颱風也要從南部登陸，我知道之前凱米颱風重創臺灣很多縣市的公共設施，依本席調閱的資料，大概金額超過了115億。針對這部分，不曉得公共工程委員會目前處理的狀況如何？處理到什麼進度？"],["陳主任委員金德：上次凱米颱風，每個縣市都有災損，有的嚴重，有的比較不那麼嚴重，屏東當然有些是土石流或者是溢堤，我跟兩位副主委都分批到各縣市去看，屏東也是我去看的，所以目前已經在陸續核定各縣市的補助要求。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，以屏東來看，屏東目前報出來的金額高達8.2億，但是我們的年度災害準備金只剩下3.6億，有4.6億的缺口，針對我們非六都財政比較困窘的縣市，公共工程委員會是不是有加速審查、補足缺口的因應措施？"],["陳主任委員金德：屏東目前是核定了5.36億，跟屏東縣政府提出的請求已經接近、非常接近，這部分也希望讓屏東縣政府能夠就上次的災損儘速來修復，尤其是溢堤的部分，那部分可能還需要從長計議。"],["徐委員富癸：對，因為馬上就要接著這個颱風，也不知道會造成什麼樣的影響，但是屏東之前受損的部分有的還沒有處理，所以我們也希望公共工程委員會能夠加快速度，協助縣政府來重建。","另外，針對公共工程落後的部分，本席之前也一直有提出很多的質詢，根據我們調閱的相關資料，公共工程的進度原本在111年到112年有好轉，但是今年又有大幅的落後，根據我們調閱的資料，各縣市目前統計的數量大概有六百多件，而且都集中在屏東、臺南、高雄、臺東，就是南部跟東部這些地方，加上先前凱米颱風又增加了地方政府施工的數量，我們很擔心我們的工程量能不足，廠商找不到，有的工程會延宕，請問這個部分，主委怎麼來協助地方政府？"],["陳主任委員金德：目前工程會的作法是針對年執行預算1億以上的，由工程會來列管，是工程性質的採購，其他就是各主辦機關去列管，或是主辦機關的上級主管機關去列管。我們除了定期的稽核之外，每個月都會開督導會報來了解，各部門、各縣市政府對重要的公共建設的進度如何，都會有所掌握，如果有比較落後的縣市或部會，工程會都會提醒。"],["徐委員富癸：這一點也很重要，這點再麻煩，因為畢竟非六都的人力也好，財政狀況也好，真的是輸六都輸得很慘，所以真的需要工程會來全力協助。","另外，我再請教主委，因為我們看到有些縣市的工程，他們為了要順利發包，有時候會採取減項發包的權宜措施，但是也發現了在減項完之後，工程完成之後還必須要再追加金額，反而比以前沒有減項時花更多錢，而且造成功能的不完備。針對這部分，5月份我也有跟蔡其昌委員一起連署提案，公共工程委員會也有正式提文要求各單位、各相關政府，這部分主委有什麼樣的看法？"],["陳主任委員金德：一個公共設施都有核定一定的設計內容跟預算，如果要採取減項發包，必須在合約裡面敘明將來是怎麼擴充、擴充的方式、內容、預算的增加，都要非常清楚才能夠採取減項發包，不希望為了發包而減項，導致後面重要的設施取消掉了，把前面比較簡單的先發包。當然減項發包的部分在政府採購法裡面也是合乎規定的一個採購方式，我們會再提醒各採購機關，關於減項發包的部分一定要符合相關條件，或者是不能把必要設施排除在外去減項發包。"],["徐委員富癸：這一點我們還是要提醒工程會應該要訂定更詳細的法律規範，不然到時候該做的沒做，不該做的做一大堆，也不對啦！這部分再請主委幫忙。","最後，剛剛很多委員都提到碳費的部分，這部分還是要請公共工程委員會幫忙，尤其你們主管了很多國內公共建設的期程，到底目前的費率還有時間的調整有沒有一個明確的數據？這個是不是會後麻煩主委再給我們一份書面答復，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","接下來邀請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:08:39","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:42:58+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155006","委員名稱":"游顥","duration":519,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:34:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b52bc2fb8d16f73e67b6cd6776ddc26aed800663013735077cb6aef268ea8587b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.78034375,"end":12.957218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.277843750000002,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.42034375,"end":20.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.43284375,"end":21.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.10346875,"end":22.407218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.44096875,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.75721875,"end":24.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.75284375,"end":26.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.558468750000003,"end":28.262843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.58346875,"end":30.422843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.74346875,"end":32.127218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.41409375,"end":34.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.32096875,"end":36.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.32909375,"end":37.189718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.42596875,"end":38.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.16409375,"end":40.041593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.09221875,"end":41.712218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.813468750000006,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.00721875,"end":44.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.087218750000005,"end":46.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.01096875,"end":50.369093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.52096875,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.24034375000001,"end":66.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00"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art":328.9,"end":330.703,"text":"大約是在上半年還是下半年都會完成?"},{"start":343.174,"end":365.366,"text":"我們大概都回答是下半年下半年大概幾月的時候之前我想明年底好不好明年底能夠來完成這七頁的質疑好那接著的話上次其實本席曾經提過跟公共工程委員會建議那目前的話重大的公共工程並沒有這個探權管理師的一個規劃那目前的話公共工程委員會對於這個議題它的規劃是如何"},{"start":368.919,"end":397.184,"text":"整個公共工程裡面工程預算裡面都會有碳盤查的相關的編列那麼也會做生態查核生態查核不管是在設計端還是在執行端或者是各自各樣的評審委員裡面都有生態查核的機制進去我想這個生態查核一部分事實上已經涵蓋了管理碳排這樣的一個"},{"start":398.725,"end":402.832,"text":"這是探權管理師的這個角色探權管理探權管理師這部分我們目前還沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":411.072,"end":437.112,"text":"那還是會建議公共工程委員會因為這個2025年的這個目標這是為了下一代那所以說如果相關各種可以在我們的淨零的部分能夠來去加強補充甚至於導入各種專業的力量那本期還是會建議公共工程委員會能夠慎重思考這個有關於探險管理師是會能夠在重大工程中能夠納入我相信這個對於整體來講還是會有加分的"},{"start":437.649,"end":451.42,"text":"這個我們來研議因為這個牽涉到這個技師他有一些是要透過國家考試取得技師資格技師資格才有簽證他的這個效力所以這個我們通盤來研議"},{"start":454.773,"end":480.702,"text":"指引之後就是現在目前縣市政府的碳排放指引的相關宣導跟準則來講那公共工程委員會要如何與縣市政府來做搭配或要求這部分我們有跟各機關包括中央的部會或地方政府針對整個公共工程減少排碳的部分那麼會有相關的會議或者是整個指引都會"},{"start":482.623,"end":499.465,"text":"本市還是跟主委建議一下因為目前的話相關的會議都主要還是在於宣導跟建議那事實上的一個國家的中大公共工程包括縣市政府也佔了中央預算有相關許多的工程其實都需要做一邊的指引甚至能夠做配合"},{"start":500.046,"end":500.186,"text":"有話委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:34:19 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11:42:58","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"155006","gazette":{"lineno":556,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（11時34分）謝謝召委，有請主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["游委員顥：主委早。本席要特別感謝您跟公共工程委員會在這次凱米風災能夠第一時間親自帶隊來地方勘災，表達公共工程委員會對於南投縣的關懷跟支持，相信中央、地方如果一條心，這些災情的救災才可以讓百姓安心，所以在這裡還是要再次肯定一下主委跟公共工程委員會的各位辛苦同仁。同樣的，本席在這裡也要表達一下，在這次所謂的災害的一些救災，包括重建的經費，縣府許淑華縣長跟我們的副縣長也感謝公共工程委員會在這次協助經費的比例上，確實比以往還要多，對於南投縣是非常的重視，所以在這裡也必須要給主委跟公共工程委員會一個肯定跟感謝。","南投縣政府雖然編列了3.37億的災害準備金，但是因為4月、6月的豪雨侵襲，其實這筆經費在上半年度已經用完，而這次將近39億的經費是後面所謂的復建工程，想請問一下主委，很謝謝您的大力支持，目前我們如何在南投縣後續的災後重建上，可以立即再持續協助南投？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員。因為南投縣政府這一次的災損比較嚴重，包括邊坡，包括河川，包括一些道路，所以我們算是很快就到南投縣政府去了解，而且中央各機關都有派員去了解，最後整個災損我們核定了33.8億，跟原來南投縣政府所提的請求39億也不會差很大，所以希望這33.8億能夠協助南投縣政府各式各樣的公共設施立即來改善，目前核定的額數是這樣子。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝主委。剛才有特別提到，在這個比例上，確實比以前工程會協助到南投來講是滿有感的，所以謝謝。同樣的，地方上有再提出一些建議，就是9月27號召開審查會議之後，第5批已經提報完，即報即審，預計這個禮拜相關的經費會整個審認通過完畢嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：如果有些個案要補件，或是要再次現勘的，我們會儘速整理，再開審議。"],["游委員顥：所以後面還會再有一次機會，像這些崩塌點再崩落，有需要再現勘、再加強的，還會再……"],["陳主任委員金德：就是要補件或要完成再次現勘的，這個我們會有補救的機會。"],["游委員顥：OK，好，謝謝。再來，南投縣還是要再次表達，在這171.5億中，整體來講，南投縣就占了33億，再次表達感謝，也要持續拜託公共工程委員會主委跟同仁，其實在南投縣，像現在山陀兒颱風又要來了，所以在很多災後復建跟相關的部分，大家其實還是非常擔心，我相信主委這邊已經儘快的做一個審查，未來也拜託能夠持續的幫忙。","接著要延續今天大家所要探討的重點，包括公共工程節能減碳的部分，目前來講，整個COP大會之後，在2022年3月公布以及到2025淨零碳排的目標，接著想要就教主委，在目前來講，我們發現許多機關，尤其是中央部會的機關，他們在碳排係數相關的數據、相關的準則其實是非常不一致的，如何能夠在什麼時間點，由公共工程委員會對於國家的重大工程能夠有一個統一的指引？請問，預計什麼時候會有一個這樣的指引？"],["陳主任委員金德：有關碳排的指引，大概明（114）年能夠完成，碳排係數的收集是持續性的，我們會收集各式各樣的建築或營建的原料，或相關的一些產品來做平均值，以訂出碳排係數，我們也希望能夠持續收集更廣泛的排放係數。"],["游委員顥：因為中央部會的重大工程還是必須要有所依歸。想請教主委，預計這個指引會在明年……"],["陳主任委員金德：114年會完成系列的指引。"],["游委員顥：大約是在上半年還是下半年度會完成？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們大概都回答是下半年。"],["游委員顥：下半年？大概幾月之前？"],["陳主任委員金德：我想明年底好不好？明年底能夠來完成系列的指引。"],["游委員顥：上次其實本席有曾經跟公共工程委員會提出建議，目前重大的公共工程並沒有碳權管理師的規劃，公共工程委員會對於這個議題的規劃是如何？"],["陳主任委員金德：整個公共工程的工程預算裡面都會有碳盤查的相關編列，也會做生態查核，生態查核不管是在設計端還是在執行端，或者是各式各樣的評審委員裡面，都有生態查核的機制進去，我想這個生態查核一部分事實上已經涵蓋了管理碳排這樣的要求。"],["游委員顥：就是碳權管理師的這個角色，如何在公共工程中去做一個定位？"],["陳主任委員金德：碳權管理……"],["游委員顥：碳權管理師。"],["陳主任委員金德：這部分目前我們還沒有這樣的規劃。"],["游委員顥：還是建議公共工程委員會，因為2025年的這個目標是為了下一代，如果各種淨零的相關部分能夠加強、補充，甚至導入各種專業的力量，本席還是會建議公共工程委員會慎重思考，把碳權管理師納入在重大工程中，我相信這個對於整體來講還是會有加分。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個我們來研議，因為這個牽涉到技師，有些要透過國家考試取得技師資格，有技師資格才有簽證的效力，所以這個我們通盤來研議。"],["游委員顥：再來，在這個指引之後，目前縣市政府的碳排放指引的相關宣導跟準則，公共工程委員會要如何與縣市政府搭配或要求？"],["陳主任委員金德：這部分我們有跟各機關，包括中央的部會或地方政府，針對整個公共工程減少排碳的部分會有相關的會議，或者是整個指引都會……"],["游委員顥：本席還是跟主委建議一下，因為目前相關的會議主要還是在於宣導跟建議，事實上，一個國家的重大公共工程，包括縣市政府也占了中央預算，許多相關工程其實都需要做一併的指引甚至能夠做配合，這樣對於整個政府的工程在推動上也才有比較明確的成果，所以本席也建議，縣市政府的指引跟宣導，還有到時候配合中央部分的指引能夠一併落實，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員質詢。","接下來邀請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:12:52","end_time":"2024-09-30T12:01:39+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155005","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","duration":772,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:48:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bec660d638ca789d2d315587f90474d38d80066301373507731b3cdcc79e3353f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.2122187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.3472187500000001,"end":1.6003437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.74721875,"end":7.5572187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.56971875,"end":9.379718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.054718750000003,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.594718750000002,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.662218750000001,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.75409375,"end":17.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.90596875,"end":29.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.90159375,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.781593750000003,"end":50.892218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.722218750000003,"end":31.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.75596875,"end":31.772843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.772843750000003,"end":31.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.82346875,"end":31.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.85721875,"end":31.890968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.17909375,"end":58.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.09346875000001,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.90284375,"end":72.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.89721875000001,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.53784375000001,"end":109.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.05596875,"end":128.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.33159375,"end":182.92221875},{"speak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我們的預算可以通過 造福全民"},{"start":110.14,"end":136.635,"text":"所以剛剛其實我這個一路從早上然後剛剛我有特別換了一下順序我這麼一路聽過來我聽到許多的這個在野黨的立委們就說你們要爭取預算啊你們要怎麼樣啊我自己聽起來是覺得還蠻諷刺的就是要馬兒好馬兒能夠跑但是我們不給預算喔這個部分其實我們也希望能夠再跟在野黨好好的溝通一下"},{"start":137.515,"end":152.238,"text":"好,那今天第一件事情其實是跟時事有關啦其實剛剛很多的委員們也特別有特別提到就是跟學界這邊的一個溝通啦那就是有600位的這個學者這個跨領域的一個學者"},{"start":152.398,"end":152.418,"text":"國會委員會長"},{"start":176.817,"end":176.937,"text":"第二﹗"},{"start":202.239,"end":228.029,"text":"其實真的就是他們也希望就是反對上對下就像我們委員在質詢部會首長我們也絕對不會上對下我們是平等的吼那這個部分他們這也是他們希望的那再來其實就是他們希望在這個國科會在正式新政府新政策尤其是永續發展跟淨零挑戰的這個政策相關的部分呢能夠"},{"start":230.591,"end":247.086,"text":"來聽聽更多其他跨領域專業學者的一個聲音來尋求一個共識而不是說我決定了什麼我就要來做什麼這個部分目前你們的回應有讓這些學者得到滿意的答案嗎或者是你們有取得他們一些共識嗎"},{"start":248.291,"end":263.831,"text":"我們已經排定了要去請教這些學者那委員提醒了這幾項我完全都同意我們會按照這個方向來進行目前排定什麼時候會跟他們再坐下來好好的來做溝通處長可以"},{"start":265.188,"end":265.208,"text":"請教"},{"start":282.934,"end":284.596,"text":"接下來其實剛剛也有一些委員有特別提到"},{"start":307.894,"end":308.134,"text":"同意吧?"},{"start":334.881,"end":356.152,"text":"我同意當各國其實都在積極地爭取主權AI的時候其實這個部分我們也要非常的這個算是我要給這個正面的肯定就是我們有這個台灣三的一個系列這是台灣獨立自製的一個超級電腦之一但是目前為止這個算力的部分或者是在我們的這個創新一號的這個超級電腦"},{"start":358.933,"end":384.202,"text":"我們當然要不斷地去栽培一些人才才能夠讓台灣成為智慧國家的一個目標但是根據英國Oxford Insight每年對於所謂的各國AI準備程度來進行一個評比台灣其實目前是落後到第19名 這個部分 諸位怎麼看?"},{"start":385.168,"end":401.143,"text":"我們現在正在努力,剛剛委員也提到說我們已經編列預算了,這個預算我希望能夠順利獲得立法院的支持,讓我們明年資料中心的設備,就是超級電腦的建置可以順利的完成。"},{"start":401.844,"end":423.363,"text":"我希望如果我們能夠按照計畫執行的話我們將來的這個準備度一定會大幅提升那我們同步也會發展剛剛有提到這個AI應用的新的主權AI系統的這個開發也結合我們的產業界的投資希望能夠讓我們的AI的這個準備度的排名能夠逐年的"},{"start":423.763,"end":449.889,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":450.749,"end":467.237,"text":"總算力的排名前三國以全球來講是美國、日本跟芬蘭台灣是第17目前我們國科會所建置的剛剛我提到的台灣山2號的排名已經從2018年的第20名滑落到今年變成是106名"},{"start":469.798,"end":469.838,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":499.918,"end":522.56,"text":"因為我們知道這個距離我們的目標啦我們的目標其實還有五年的時間那當然這個算力其實也會影響到比方說我們講的地震的一個預測或者是氣候或者是一個災害的應變等等所以這五年當中如果沒有其他的一些事件的一些干擾啦那我說這個五年有可能達標嗎?"},{"start":524.457,"end":542.738,"text":"五年內如果我們按照我們計畫執行我覺得一定可以達標因為政府的這個投入會引起會帶動產業的投入特別我們在發展應用的部分加緊腳步的話產業投入一定會遠高於這個政府的投入所以我們算力的提升會大幅增加的"},{"start":543.538,"end":564.407,"text":"好 那剛剛有特別提到一個產業的部分那其實我們台灣企業整體的AI的準備度其實目前還是偏低啦因為台灣大概其實有98%以上其實都是所謂的中小的企業那這個部分其實我們可能還是期待這個國科會這個地方可能也要去慢慢的去輔導這些"},{"start":565.407,"end":565.747,"text":"國會會議的回應是2026年"},{"start":585.094,"end":586.855,"text":"我們希望能夠是在2026但目前為止這個計畫好像還是遠遠的落後2026有可能我們可以看到我們台灣第一顆的低軌衛星發射嗎"},{"start":605.49,"end":625.362,"text":"我們太空通信原來在規劃太空三期的時候那時候並沒有涵蓋通信衛星因為那時候低軌衛星的產業還不是那麼明朗那後來決定要發展低軌衛星的時候其實主要是通信低軌衛星是做通信使用那是重點"},{"start":625.962,"end":632.523,"text":"因為那個是在比方說像第一尾衛星我們知道在這個惡霧戰爭當中其實它扮演了非常重要的一個角色所以它牽涉到台灣的這個韌性我們通訊的韌性也牽涉到國安還有國土安全我們的監測等等將來在海面上在這個偏遠地區我們都有辦法能夠維持我們的通訊這是非常重要但是因為台灣過去並沒有這個經驗做這個衛星通訊的系統"},{"start":653.127,"end":679.984,"text":"我接任以後特別安排了一個全國的我們叫SRV的這個會議在10月就要舉行會把我們整個臺灣的在今年10月嗎今年對 下個月就要舉行了很快那就是要希望能夠得到一個我們的政府學界還有產業界的共識將來讓大家知道說我們在太空科技裡面進到低軌衛星通信的籌載的發展晶片非常重要"},{"start":680.464,"end":695.412,"text":"目前我們沒有這個晶片的能力我們要透過跟美國跟日本的合作引進相關的這個規格技術發展台灣的這種產業我們會有一個完整的策略在我們SRV會議開完以後就會公告了"},{"start":695.752,"end":715.186,"text":"我想這個完整的策略當然其實我們以完美的這個去想像這個時間點其實我們自己內部來做是絕對OK嘛但是問題是在選址我們要舉辦公聽會因為還有環評還有當地居民這部分光是公聽會的部分要取得共識可能不是只有短短一兩年所以2026肯定延後"},{"start":716.807,"end":737.301,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們衛星發射如果要自己在我們自己本土做的話這個時間會比較長但是我們發射衛星目前都是美國協助我們發射但是衛星我們自己設計特別是通訊的那個籌載也是自己設計至於選址的部分謝謝委員提醒我們已經初步選定了選定了可能的這個場址"},{"start":739.382,"end":758.056,"text":"在台東縣在這個屏東縣我們現在正在規劃要進行這個溝通先跟我們部落原住民的部落溝通再來就是就是這個地方政府也進來協調因為還有這個用地的取得等等或許這些我們會按照法規按照程序來進行"},{"start":759.037,"end":759.158,"text":"謝謝主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:48:47 - 12:01:39","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"155005","gazette":{"lineno":908,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時48分）謝謝主席。主委辛苦了！"],["主席：有請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員好！"],["郭委員昱晴：主委早安！剛剛前面我們幾位立委同事們在跟您詢答的時候，其實我們不斷地聽到您有特別提到，明年度我們會有新的計畫，明年度我們有一些新編列的預算，明年度我們要跟國際更緊密的接軌等等，但是我們應該都知道，在9月24日禮拜二的程序委員會上，我也在場，我們114年度的所有新增預算，目前在國科會這個部分，其實有七百多億是全數打包退回，是連基本的審查、討論都沒有，這個事件其實已經是完全打回原樣了，就是零，就這個部分，您怎麼看，心裡作何感受？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我想不管是我們執政黨的委員，還是在野黨的委員，大概都知道，國科會編列的這些科研預算其實攸關我們國力的發展、攸關我們產業的發展、攸關我們社會福祉的增進，所以我是很誠心地希望我們在野黨可以支持，跟我們執政黨可以來溝通，讓我們這個預算可以通過，造福全民。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實我從早上，剛剛我有特別換了一下順序，我這麼一路聽過來，我聽到許多的在野黨立委們說，你們要增列預算、你們要怎麼樣，我自己聽起來是覺得還蠻諷刺的，就是要馬兒好，要馬兒能夠跑，但是不給預算，這個部分，其實我們也希望能夠再跟在野黨好好的溝通一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。今天第一件事情是跟時事有關，其實剛剛很多的委員們也有特別提到，就是跟學界的溝通，有600位跨領域的學者，基於永續發展，他們不希望只是淪為所謂的政策修辭，當然他們也會擔心將來投入的一些公共資源、研究心血可能就會付之一炬，就是我們國科會內部有一些調整，他們希望學者、學界們的聲音也讓我們這邊聽到，其實他們有兩大訴求，就是學術自由應該要在公平、公正、公開的原則之下，我們來討論這些事情……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是、是、是。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果中間有一些增列或者是減列的預算，應該要大家公開地來做這些關鍵計畫上的討論，這個是他們的訴求之一。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：第二就是他們反對上對下，就像我們委員在質詢部會首長，我們也絕對不會上對下，我們是平等的，這個部分也是他們希望的。再來就是他們希望國科會在正視新政府新政策，尤其是永續發展及淨零挑戰這個政策相關的部分，能夠跨領域來聽聽更多其他跨領域專業學者的聲音，來尋求共識，而不是我決定了什麼，我就要來做什麼，這個部分，目前你們的回應有讓這些學者得到滿意的答案嗎？或者是你們有取得他們的一些共識嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們已經排定了，要去請教這些學者，委員提醒的這幾項，我完全都同意，我們會按照這個方向來進行。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，目前排定什麼時候會跟他們坐下來好好地來做溝通？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在10月初，處長可以說明。"],["賴處長明治：基本上，我們已經安排10月1日、2日及9日跟這三個學門的委員，還有一些學門的成員，就是我們的學者，一起來討論，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：請教、請教。"],["賴處長明治：請教。"],["郭委員昱晴：是、是、是，因為我想這是彼此的尊重……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是、是，彼此尊重。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為跨領域，如果我在這裡問你袖珍藝術，你肯定也不會，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以其實跨領域上面的我們要取得更多的共識就必須要更平心靜氣地坐下來聽聽別人的一些聲音。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：也作為自己精進的一個參考。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。再來，剛剛也有一些委員特別提到，就是我們臺灣AI的排名跟超級電腦的算力，目前來看，雖然以全球來說好像還是蠻前面，但是就整個亞洲的部分，其實我們算是中後段班，尤其是AI落地的應用，我們都知道必須要仰賴超級電腦的龐大算力跟速度，這個同意吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我同意。"],["郭委員昱晴：當各國都在積極爭取主權AI的時候，對於我們有臺灣杉的系列，這個部分我要給予正面的肯定，這是臺灣獨立自製的超級電腦之一，但是目前為止，在算力的部分或者是在創進1號的超級電腦，我們當然要不斷去栽培一些人才，才能夠讓臺灣達成智慧國家的目標。但是根據英國Oxford Insights每年對於各國AI準備程度所進行的評比，臺灣目前是落後到第19名，這個部分主委怎麼看？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在正在努力，剛剛委員也提到我們已經編列預算，這個預算我希望能夠順利、能夠獲得立法院的支持，讓我們明年資料中心的設備，也就是超級電腦的建置可以順利完成。如果我們能夠按照計畫執行的話，將來的準備度一定會大幅提升，我們也會同步發展剛剛有提到的AI應用新的主權AI系統的開發，也結合我們產業界的投資，希望能夠讓我們AI準備度的排名逐年提升，讓民眾也可以受益，各行各業都可以受益到我們自己發展的這個主權AI的應用系統。"],["郭委員昱晴：但這個進程可能真的要稍微再加速一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們希望能夠加速。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。另外要提到加速推動超級電腦的開發，因為大家都不斷提到算力即國力，以全球總算力的排名前三國是美國、日本跟芬蘭，臺灣是第十七，目前我們國科會所建置的臺灣杉2號的排名，已經從2018年的第20名滑落到今年變成是106名，這個部分怎麼解釋呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：大家可以看到五年來的進步非常的快，各國都在投資當中，所以我們也要加緊腳步，急起直追。從明年開始，我們陸續建置的算力會從現在大概19PFLOPS，在四年內可能會進步到超過20倍，希望能夠把臺灣的排名往上不斷的提升。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為這個距離我們的目標其實還有五年的時間，當然，算力也會影響到地震的預測，或者是氣候，或者是災害的應變等等，所以這五年當中如果沒有其他一些事件的干擾，這五年有可能達標嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：五年內如果按照我們計畫執行，我覺得一定可以達標，因為政府的投入會帶動產業的投入，特別是我們在發展應用的部分加緊腳步的話，產業的投入一定會遠高於政府的投入，所以我們算力的提升會大幅增加。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，剛剛有特別提到產業的部分，其實我們臺灣企業整體AI的準備度目前還是偏低，因為臺灣大概有百分之九十八以上都是中小企業，這個部分我們還是期待國科會可能也要慢慢地去輔導這些產業。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會輔導產業進來。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。我再進到下一題，這個是上個會期我就在關心的一個議題，就是我們第一顆低軌衛星發射，我記得上會期我在關心這個議題的時候，國科會的回應是包含選址等等希望能夠在2026年，但目前為止這個計畫好像還是遠遠的落後，2026年有可能可以看到我們臺灣第一顆的低軌衛星發射嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們太空中心原來在規劃太空三期的時候並沒有涵蓋通訊衛星，因為那時候低軌衛星的產業還不是那麼明朗，後來決定要發展低軌衛星的時候，其實低軌衛星主要是做通訊使用，那是重點。"],["郭委員昱晴：對，比方說我們知道像低軌衛星在俄烏戰爭當中扮演了非常重要的一個角色。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以它牽涉到臺灣通訊的韌性，也牽涉到國安，還有國土安全、我們的監測等等，將來在海面上、在偏遠地區都有辦法能夠維持我們的通訊，這非常重要，但是因為臺灣過去並沒有做衛星通訊系統的經驗，所以我接任以後特別安排了一個全國SRB會議，在10月就要舉行，會把我們整個臺灣的……"],["郭委員昱晴：在今年10月嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，很快下個月就要舉行，希望能夠得到一個我們的政府、學界，還有產業界的共識，將來讓大家知道我們在太空科技裡面進到低軌衛星通訊酬載的發展，晶片非常重要，目前我們沒有這個晶片的能力，我們要透過跟美國、跟日本的合作，引進相關的規格、技術，發展臺灣的這種產業，我們會有一個完整的策略，在我們SRB會議開完以後就會公告。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想這個完整的策略，以完美想像的時間點，其實我們自己內部來做是絕對OK，但是問題是在選址的部分我們要舉辦公聽會，因為還有環評，還有當地居民，光是公聽會的部分要取得共識可能不是只有短短一、兩年，所以2026年肯定延後，我這樣說對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員提醒，我們衛星發射如果要自己在本土做的話，這個時間會比較長，我們發射衛星目前都是美國協助我們發射，但是衛星是我們自己設計，特別是通訊的酬載也是自己設計，至於選址的部分謝謝委員提醒，我們已經初步選定了可能的場址，包含在臺東縣、在屏東縣……"],["郭委員昱晴：最快什麼時候會辦理？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在正在規劃要進行溝通，先跟原住民的部落溝通，再來就是地方政府也進來協調，因為還有用地的取得等等，後續這些我們會按照法規、按照程序來進行，謝謝委員提醒。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果有比較確定的一些進程再麻煩讓我的辦公室稍微知道，因為我從上個會期就在關心這個事情。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主委，辛苦了，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員，主委請回。","再來請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:09:05","end_time":"2024-09-30T12:00:51+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155004","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","duration":545,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:51:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b90517a65531ad40e675162b30ff93f65d8006630137350775bacb8e37d1ca6875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.81909375,"end":8.114093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.333468750000002,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.590343750000002,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.56909375,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.25659375,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.610343750000002,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.31471875,"end":59.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.03846875000001,"end":60.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.595343750000005,"end":65.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.89409375000001,"end":113.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.71784375,"end":128.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.11221875,"end":130.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.65596875,"end":147.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.67284375,"end":132.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.70221875000001,"end":132.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.73596875,"end":132.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.92159375,"end":135.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.04596875000001,"end":150.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.61971875,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.85159375,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.29846875,"end":159.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.19596875000002,"end":161.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.03534375,"end":161.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.06909375,"end":161.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.44034375,"end":167.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.56596875000002,"end":170.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.92846875,"end":202.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.59284375000001,"end":184.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.89659375000002,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.96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響到整個金融活動影響還蠻大的所以我們自從改了新制的調整放假的這個辦法以後"},{"start":113.817,"end":116.198,"text":"所以你剛剛納入考量的是根本不可行"},{"start":131.952,"end":147.147,"text":"你現在回答這個都錄音錄影大家要知道你納入考量到底是可行或者是不可行你要有一個定內時間點嘛告訴社會大眾你如果現在這樣回答就是說不可能嘛我不會說不可能因為一定要顯出來"},{"start":151.431,"end":162.222,"text":"日曆掀出來,你如果說拜三中秋,你要去釣農曆,那就不可能,那就是叫做不可能,但是...釣農曆不可能,釣一曆有可能嗎?釣一曆是可以考慮,釣一曆可以考慮,釣農曆就不要去想了"},{"start":167.668,"end":167.848,"text":"主席"},{"start":197.728,"end":199.453,"text":"五一勞動節會不會全國統一放假"},{"start":203.206,"end":227.972,"text":"就如同委員這個寫的政府的立場始終一致我們要尊重內政部的意見你剛才一直回答本席就等著你這一句話我們來討論喔也就是上游你認為上游是這個是內政部那你是下游但是我認為這樣的說法我不太認同因為民眾看的是政府那政府呢他的橫向"},{"start":228.812,"end":250.895,"text":"他所有的部會必須要充分去溝通了解如果只有回答人事長如果只有回答說我這個是上游我就等著他我只是執行那這個會讓人民有點失望如果說人民的聲音已經非常的大那你在末端即使你說的下游執行者你也應該提出你的論點"},{"start":252.236,"end":276.553,"text":"政府部門跨部會的去討論就像說的內政部要跨部會討論那到底會不會做等待那麼久不管yes或no你總是告訴民眾會不會做就連跨部會你認為會不會做會不會做因為跨部會你一定是其中的部會之一嘛"},{"start":277.72,"end":293.444,"text":"請做說明我跟委員報告事實上我們一直在跟內政部溝通因為你有溝通?有有一定有溝通的方向是什麼?就是說叫他那間刮刮的看五月齊有賣泡嗎?沒有啊你這樣說我就給你按讚喔你叫他刮刮的什麼快一點刮刮的那有沒有開會啦?他們內部還在討論啦"},{"start":302.382,"end":316.117,"text":"內部有在討論,那你認為呢?內部討論沒有邀請我參加,我不知道他們討論的情況。那你的,如果以你的立場,你認為5月1號勞動節要不要全部統一制?"},{"start":317.638,"end":317.838,"text":"政府委員報告"},{"start":337.031,"end":361.849,"text":"聽說當然啊為什麼要找跨部會就是要聽取大家意見啊這是公然大家知道的訊息啊所以我們有去拜託你也是其中一個好來我們有去拜託賴正波針對不只是勞動啦還有其他的姊可能教師姊啊金人姊三位大家一起去討論看看要怎麼處理嘛你有拜託齁 我也期待你的拜託沒關係讓我們一個大案我們才不會亂起嘛"},{"start":364.631,"end":364.832,"text":"主席"},{"start":374.19,"end":388.6,"text":"我要請教我們的公務人員的離職人數不斷的在增加比2021年你是增加了22.82022比2021增加了22.8退休的人數從5746那你增加到7635所以是缺額是不是目前的樣態"},{"start":398.1,"end":410.035,"text":"他跟以往也都差不多因為這裡增加22.8因為是統計數字他標示的因為有些人的離子是因為他普考要考上高考因為時間的關係本席把這個課題給你"},{"start":413.98,"end":414.301,"text":"消防人員"},{"start":429.855,"end":451.073,"text":"我們現在大家都重視我們的小龍林丸消防體系很重要發生了屏東民養的事件發生了今年5月底的新竹的勤工會的事件造成了兩名我們的消防員的殉職讓我們非常的難過所以政府也看到"},{"start":451.613,"end":451.793,"text":"主席"},{"start":474.611,"end":474.831,"text":"職業安全衛生法議題"},{"start":497.156,"end":499.038,"text":"職業安全衛生法的向下也必須要納入進來一併討論"},{"start":516.309,"end":517.11,"text":"謝謝楊委員 謝謝人事長接下來有請黃建豪委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:51:46 - 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子了是他如果不自己去圍牢他能怎麼辦對他又住在那間房子嗎"},{"start":281.786,"end":306.461,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團"},{"start":309.443,"end":319.478,"text":"但有的人的生存權跟居住權我認為也必須要受到保障所以你們在思考這個問題我覺得這個部分你也不能把它拿掉"},{"start":320.427,"end":343.526,"text":"你覺得呢?這個就是我們後面的一個法規檢討因為大家期待違老條例要能繼續執行嘛那所以我們未來再要繼續修法要往前走的時候我想剛剛委員所提到的這一些對於小基地的一個照顧這個我們還是會來重新再來檢討一下現行的這個規定裡面能不能做一些再做一些彈性的修正這我們會來檢討好部長我為什麼請你上來站著這樣"},{"start":348.61,"end":375.561,"text":"我覺得啦像圍牢這種小基地的我覺得很多人他不是不願意有大基地他現況就沒有辦法了啊那他現況沒有辦法的情況之下我們不能讓他不去蓋新房子啊你一天到晚講地震來怎麼辦那些人怎麼辦他的生存權跟居住權我認為必須也要收到保障啦這一點部長能不能也麻煩啊你要支持一下"},{"start":377.25,"end":377.75,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:54:15 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12:00:44","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"155003","gazette":{"lineno":998,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（11時54分）我先請部長跟署長。"],["主席：請部長跟署長。"],["劉部長世芳：召委，你好。"],["張委員宏陸：署長，我們今天要修都更條例第六十五條，其實我想請問一下署長，這個修了之後直接受益的是什麼人？"],["吳署長欣修：直接受益的就是在這個容積訂定之前已經核發執照，但是還沒有完成使照的部分，這些大樓可以受惠，以後可以用原容的方式來申請獎勵。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，署長，直接受益的應該是現在擁有房子的房屋所有權人嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：就是現在有房子的人可以適用舊的容積，要去改建或什麼的，可以得到比較好的容積，這樣才能改建嘛！對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這個要講清楚啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：不然你到底是給建商還是給誰誘因？我覺得你再說一次，把它……"],["吳署長欣修：原有的住戶……"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得你要把它說清楚。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是什麼？"],["吳署長欣修：就是現有的、住在這些大樓裡面的住戶，其實他們是最直接的受益者。"],["張委員宏陸：所以是直接給人民優惠吧！"],["吳署長欣修：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：不是給任何人，是直接給現在有房子的所有權人優惠，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對！"],["張委員宏陸：是不是？"],["吳署長欣修：是！"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛！這個是不是就像我們以前、現在在很多農村裡面看到的農建地？是不是這樣？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？可能有的人會覺得在農村裡面怎麼會有建地，那就是都市計畫發布前，他們本來就住在那邊的房子，幾十年了……"],["吳署長欣修：就是既有的房屋。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，既有的房屋。他們住在那邊幾十年了，現在說要實施都市計畫，他們在農村就不能有住的權利。這是不對的嘛！所以我們今天要修的這個是不是類似都市計畫還沒有發布前的農建地的概念？請你說一下。"],["吳署長欣修：有點類似。因為最主要是當時容積率的訂定比較晚，所以它在之前已經興建完成而且在使用了，這些住戶本來就應該要有比照既有房屋的一些合理的容積獎勵，應該這麼說，他們會更有意願參與執行都更，因為他才能比較有機會分到自己原有應該分回的坪數。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！第一個是所有權人、是人民直接的，不是給任何人，這是一個。另外，違建不算吧？"],["吳署長欣修：對，違建不算。"],["張委員宏陸：違建不算，這個要說清楚啊！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這個都要說清楚。","另外，今天有很多委員在講危老的事情，當然，要不要延長、要不要什麼的，我覺得應該都是你們本於自己的職權和專業去處理，不過署長，剛剛也有很多委員說，到時候房子太小間或什麼的，可是有關居住權跟生存權，我相信我也跟您說過很多次了，如果以現在的規定，未來拿到獎勵要1,600平方公尺以上耶！是不是？"],["吳署長欣修：不是，那是……"],["張委員宏陸：如果要拿到滿，要拿到滿！"],["吳署長欣修：如果要10%拿到足……"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：1,600平方公尺……"],["吳署長欣修：就是規模獎勵那一塊。"],["張委員宏陸：那是幾坪？1,600平方公尺是幾坪？"],["吳署長欣修：將近500坪。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！500坪嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：那是要10%拿到足。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！我有一個概念，尤其像我們新北市，我們不要舉太多，說我們板橋就好了，有很多基地面積不大，他也沒辦法都更，旁邊人家又是新的房子，如果不自己去「危老」，他能怎麼辦？他要永遠住在那間房子嗎？對不對？我覺得這一點可能我們也要思考一下，他的居住權怎麼辦？他的生存權怎麼辦？你去看國外！雖然有的房子是小小的，但是有的蓋得非常有特色啊！不一定這樣就不行啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得都市的發展並不是只有一整棟，當然是整棟大樓這樣非常漂亮，但是我認為有的人的生存權和居住權也必須受到保障，所以當你們在思考這個問題的時候，我覺得這個部分也不能把它拿掉。您覺得呢？"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯，這就是我們後面的一個法規檢討，因為大家期待危老條例能繼續執行，所以我們未來要繼續修法、要往前走的時候，剛剛委員所提到的這些對於小基地的照顧，我們還是會重新再來檢討一下，看看在現行的規定裡面能不能再做一些彈性的修正，這個我們會來檢討。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，我為什麼請你上來站著講？像危老這種小基地的，我覺得很多人他不是不願意有大基地，而是他現況就沒有辦法了啊！在他現況沒有辦法的情況之下，我們不能讓他不去蓋新房子啊！你一天到晚講地震來怎麼辦，請問那些人怎麼辦？他的生存權跟居住權，我認為也必須受到保障啦！這一點能不能也麻煩部長支持一下？"],["劉部長世芳：我們再來好好的規劃，尤其是都會地區裡面的危老太多了。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張召委的質詢。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：登記發言委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。書面質詢及未答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副本通知本會。","現在休息5分鐘，休息後繼續處理法案。","休息（12時1分）","繼續開會（12時8分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:06:59","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:54:05+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155002","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","duration":419,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:47:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b217971260e284c2ae2c265252fbe14a8d800663013735077d51598ce2f17a4945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.8915937500000001,"end":3.6590937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.26534375,"end":12.282218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.282218750000002,"end":18.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.31596875,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.88034375,"end":29.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.829093750000002,"end":23.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.49471875,"end":29.950343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.43971875,"end":31.199093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.53659375,"end":32.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.37596875,"end":34.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.21971875,"end":36.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.73409375,"end":50.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.48034375,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.10034375,"end":42.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.39409375,"end":59.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.51534375000001,"end":61.742843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.45909375000001,"end":68.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.91034375000001,"end":70.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.34909375000001,"end":75.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.82534375,"end":77.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.56721875000001,"e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4,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":87.611,"end":92.514,"text":"民防總隊9.7萬人民防團4.7萬人防護團23.4萬人等等所以民防的人數以民防人力動員計劃來統計差不多就是40萬人上下"},{"start":116.792,"end":120.877,"text":"三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":135.694,"end":136.634,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":159.002,"end":176.441,"text":"外界大家在好奇就是說過去其實我們就有民防法了嘛民防也在做民防訓練也有相關的民防的這個分隊、中隊的訓練嘛我們可能以前擔任過民意代表也都會參與民防相關的工作嘛那現在其實最主要在提出來這部分是要多增加五萬名"},{"start":177.142,"end":183.065,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":200.188,"end":224.309,"text":"所以未來我們會有統稱嗎?還是說他還是一樣就像現在,因為民防法下面就是民防人員,你說用消防法的話下面可能就是一級一消,對不對?所以他還是各自原本就有的。本席好奇的地方其實兩個部分啦,一個是說到底我們現在就提出來賴總統提出來這部分,會不會跟我們過去已經有法源依據的一消也好或是民防人員也好,會有跌床駕屋的問題?"},{"start":225.29,"end":229.931,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":248.797,"end":260.566,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團"},{"start":278.059,"end":279.04,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":297.556,"end":317.842,"text":"報告委員現在因為還沒有進入114年度現在我們在做這個替代役的役男的訓練上面的話我們是申請行政院的二倍金來幫忙行政院願意來協助我們因為我們目前的做這個役男或是替代役男的這個基礎訓練的部分包括有急救訓練自衛防護還有專業訓練包括避難設施或者是在職訓練等等這些他的量能不夠"},{"start":323.604,"end":345.564,"text":"所以剛剛有委員也提到第一個我們現在使用的一個地方大概就是在中州就已經退場的這個一個中州的這個技術學院願意提供這樣子的一個場地給我們做替代役的訓練或者是其他的這個比較加強的一個防衛訓練的部分那所以現在大部分都是用在訓練的量能上面"},{"start":346.415,"end":362.811,"text":"未來替代役的部分就您的安排或是規劃你認為是他們要在役滿退役之前會有拿到相關的證照是的尤其是EMT-1所以幾個證照他會變成是他退役的一個標準嗎"},{"start":364.372,"end":387.282,"text":"如果說他在服役期間但是他沒有辦法拿到不管是說他的本職全能等等那可能在給他的工作量就沒有辦法那麼專業本席提出來就是可能會未來很多人的面臨到問題以及想要了解政府的態度所以你剛剛有提到替代役你要延長並且你要提出相關的訓練也到中州相關的一個訓練設備那這樣子會不會變成是一個標準"},{"start":390.123,"end":392.944,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:47:06 - 11:54:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"155002","gazette":{"lineno":931,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時47分）主席，謝謝。麻煩先請劉世芳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。"],["劉部長世芳：洪委員你好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我想國人都很關心，我們也希望了解，讓全民能夠安心，賴總統說要全社會防務……"],["劉部長世芳：防衛韌性。"],["洪委員孟楷：韌性委員會。其中的目標是充實40萬名具有防衛能力的民力，是不是？那我想請教，剛剛也有委員詢問，民力跟民兵到底有什麼差別？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個，我不了解民兵的定義，但是我了解民力的定義，跟委員報告一下，民力的部分，大概是目前我們依據民防法、消防法、災害防救法跟替代役管理條例裡面所折算出來的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以民防法現在有我們所謂的民防相關人員嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：那現在全國的民防人員差不多有多少人？"],["劉部長世芳：我先看一下……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長？部長突然……"],["劉部長世芳：我必須……對不起，因為我這邊的資訊比較比較多一點。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在沒有辦法了解我們的民防人數？"],["劉部長世芳：民防的部分，我必須要再……不好意思，我這邊並沒有，可恃民力的部分，大概還沒有看到，不好意思、不好意思、不好意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長不用不好意思，放在心上。本席的了解，是不是民防法規定相關的，不管你有分幾個隊，包括……"],["劉部長世芳：對，就是因為隊分得太詳細了，所以我現在統籌不出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，本席沒有要問那麼詳細，但是包括民防總隊差不多9.7萬人，民防團4.7人，防護團23.4萬人等等，所以民防的人數，以民防人力動員計畫來統計，差不多就是40萬人上下，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：是，差不多，但是你的算法跟我的算法不太一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這樣子的一個民防人力動員計畫，在2022年其實就已經有統計了，差不多40萬人次，那跟現在充實40萬名具有防衛能力的民力是不是一樣？"],["劉部長世芳：大致上一樣，但是有一點不一樣的地方，第一個是我們希望能夠增加所謂企業或社區，或是NGO的志願者，譬如我們在做防災士的訓練……"],["洪委員孟楷：OK，所以……"],["劉部長世芳：這個部分的目標是以明年達到5萬為主，現在已經有三萬多人拿到防災士的資格。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以其實部長，外界大家在好奇的就是，過去其實我們就有民防法了，民防也……"],["劉部長世芳：也在做民防訓練。"],["洪委員孟楷：也有相關的民防分隊、中隊的訓練嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對，是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們以前擔任過民意代表，也都會參與民防的相關工作。"],["劉部長世芳：對，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：那麼其實現在提出來的最主要是要多增加5萬名的所謂……"],["劉部長世芳：不是，它也不算民防法，就是防災士的訓練基本上是基於災害防救法跟消防法。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果不算民防法……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我剛剛有跟委員報告，我們這次所謂「可恃民力」的部分大概就是包含民防法、消防法、災害防救法，還有替代役管理條例下面所要召訓或是所要訓練的對象。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以未來我們會有統稱嗎？還是說它就像現在一樣？因為民防法下面就是民防人員，你說用消防法的話，下面可能就是義警、義消，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：義消，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以他還是各自原本就有的。本席好奇的地方其實有兩個部分，一個是說到底賴總統提出來的這個部分會不會跟我們已經有法源依據的義消也好，或是民防人員也好，會有疊床架屋的問題？二方面是，如果說要新增一個人力的話，那麼法源依據在哪裡？這個部分其實到目前為止，還是沒有辦法對外界說明清楚啊！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您非常瞭解法律上面的授權，在民防法裡面的授權，第一個，我們要按照功能來分組，它這個功能就是要維持我們的社會穩定，譬如說我們有治安，那未來我們要再做訓練，包括替代役男，就會有治安維護組的部分，譬如說我們會有救災防護組，我們就希望未來在大規模震災的時候，替代役的役男也可以加入救災防護組，可是要做治安維護或是做救災防護的時候，他必須要有專業的技巧，不能像以前一樣，大家都沒有任何個裝就往災區裡面衝，或是往消防應該注意的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：好……"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們現在特別強調的……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在講到……"],["劉部長世芳：這個可恃民力的部分是訓練，是訓練！"],["洪委員孟楷：是，部長……"],["劉部長世芳：包括民防也是一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我剛剛這樣子給你完整的論述，一個就是訓練，一個就是裝備，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為你剛剛講不能沒有個裝就往前衝嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那一樣，訓練跟裝備的部分我們預計還要再投入多少經費來做這一塊？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，因為還沒有進入114年度，現在我們在做替代役男的訓練上面是申請行政院的二備金來幫忙，行政院願意來協助我們。因為我們目前進行役男或替代役男的基礎訓練包括急救訓練、自衛防護，還有專業訓練，包括避難設施或者是在職訓練等等這些，它的量能不夠，所以剛剛有委員也提到，第一個，我們現在使用的地方大概就是已經退場的中州技術學院願意提供這樣子的場地給我們做替代役男的訓練，或者是其他比較加強的防衛訓練的部分，所以現在大部分都是用在訓練的量能上面。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實你剛剛還是沒有回答本席的問題，不過沒關係，未來替代役的部分就您的安排或是規劃，您認為是他們要在役滿、退役之前拿到相關的證照？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，尤其是EMT-1。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以幾個證照會變成是他退役的標準嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不一定。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果他在服役期間沒有辦法拿到，不管是他的本職學能等等……"],["劉部長世芳：那可能給他的工作量就沒有辦法那麼專業；應該是這樣子的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，本席提出來就是未來可能很多人會面臨的問題，以及想要瞭解政府的態度。所以您剛剛有提到，替代役你要延長，並且你要提出相關的訓練，也到中州，那裡有相關的訓練設備，這樣會不會變成是一個標準？還有，如果它沒有標準的話，就役男學習上來講，他的動力會不會沒有那麼足夠？"],["劉部長世芳：我想，替代役分成很多功能，所以要看他的功能上……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席現在只是提醒……"],["劉部長世芳：對，他如果……"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道……"],["劉部長世芳：他如果沒有達標的話，他只能回復到原來就是服兵役而已。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席現在提醒，一個政策出來之後，牽一髮而動全身，要去做比較全面的思考和配套的部分。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的指教，我們一定會朝著這方面來好好地努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：謝謝，感謝洪孟楷委員。","請蘇清泉，蘇清泉，蘇清泉不在。","請張召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:06:15","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:46:56+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155001","委員名稱":"邱志偉","duration":375,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:40:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b1559b6c08ea59a34e2c265252fbe14a8d800663013735077ecc8c447c43e04d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.73784375,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.03659375,"end":26.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.980343750000003,"end":27.824093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.07284375,"end":30.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.102218750000002,"end":30.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.11909375,"end":30.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.66284375,"end":42.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.713468750000004,"end":33.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.96659375,"end":34.337843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.85971875,"end":59.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.44971875,"end":47.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.938468750000006,"end":51.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEA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他說現在其實他們的任務啊 你說外圍圈這個任務40萬的這個名利是要警戒嘛 我問你你現在要做什麼訓練 他的裝備在哪裡你要給他什麼裝備 就是40萬的這個名利"},{"start":345.626,"end":362.163,"text":"你準備做什麼訓練裝備是什麼報告委員這個就不能夠一體試用第一個有的是正規的警察跟消防有的是義消跟消防有的是民防有的甚至是民間團體"},{"start":363.504,"end":366.226,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":384.861,"end":409.847,"text":"有嘛齁,你剛才講那些,你剛才不是說每一個都不一樣,那你怎麼訓練?他有功能上面的分組,第一個我們有提到那你能不能依照你所謂的功能的分組,你給他什麼裝備、什麼訓練?好,報告委員,我們有民防訓練,我們有民防訓練、防災室訓練,然後還有那個義男的訓練跟備役義男的訓練在法令以外你剛才講的,非常完備嘛,對不對?我們希望是大家能夠完全一致"},{"start":411.687,"end":436.64,"text":"就說一般民眾聽到要有40萬的名利他們想要很明確知道不是要有40萬的名利現在就有40萬他會不會被納到裡面去然後他要做什麼樣的訓練嘛我的要求很簡單你都有規定了嘛那你就是哪些人可能在哪一個我們有些官方有規定但是有些民間團體是要去跟他們拜託要去拜託好啦你差不多一個禮拜你看要怎麼訓練總比什麼給我啦好不好可以嗎好好謝謝現在是喔"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:32:46 - 11:40:08","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"155000","gazette":{"lineno":780,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時32分）請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員你好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長你好。26號賴總統開了全社會防衛韌性的委員會，他說，要培訓40萬可恃的民力，目標之一就是必要的時候要支援軍事行動。"],["劉部長世芳：但是現在主要的目標是維持社會穩定跟民生運作，按照民防法，第一個要務是維持政府的功能跟社會穩定，這是我們民防法最大的功能。"],["張委員啓楷：部長有備而來。我先問你，顧立雄跟你說的，到底有沒有一樣？顧立雄說，一旦情勢嚴峻的時候，當然要去支援軍事作戰。"],["劉部長世芳：是的，在民防法裡面是有這樣子的規範，我要跟委員報告一下，顧立雄他的所本是因為全民防衛動員法，我的所本則是在於災害救治法以及民防法，還有替代役管理條例，我這三個法律都是我們在執行的過程當中……"],["張委員啓楷：我現在問你的是你們兩個說的東西有沒有一樣？第二個，更重要的是……"],["劉部長世芳：是一體的兩面。"],["張委員啓楷：這樣會不會變成替代役、義警消、民間團體都要上戰場？"],["劉部長世芳：要看習近平的態度啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你是說如果全面開戰就是全部都要上戰場的意思嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想委員非常清楚，你現在所知道的民防法，包括民防人力的訓練，或者是我們新增的民間防災士的訓練，或者是設施的訓練，或者是役男的訓練，現在都在訓練，而且長久以來，張委員也服過兵役，你現在的年紀可能已經超過了，我的意思是，原本你也可能屬於後備軍人，所以現在都在訓練，但是因應大規模的天災，譬如說日本有南海海槽，他們一下子就可以把整個……"],["張委員啓楷：我的時間有限，不好意思，我知道你準備很多，我現在問你最簡單的，你的意思是，如果進入什麼樣的狀況下會全部都要上戰場？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，那個不是由內政部來做決定，而且不是假設的議題。"],["張委員啓楷：所以總統說的民力不是民兵？是不是民兵？不是？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告一下，我們既然講全社會的防衛韌性，第一個是強調韌性；第二個是全社會，全社會就必須有官跟民的組織能夠一起加進來，如果有發生大規模的震災，以我負責的方向，譬如說有三、四個縣市都遭受到大規模震災……"],["張委員啓楷：所以顧立雄說的是到前線去支援軍事作戰，但你說的不是嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：他是說必要時啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你講的是只有在救災的時候，但必要的時候也會……"],["劉部長世芳：我不曉得委員所說的前線在哪裡，我們現在採取的就是怎麼樣做好防衛臺灣、保家衛國的功能，這是我們最重要的任務。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你們兩個說的是一體兩面，都有可能就對了？"],["劉部長世芳：有可能。"],["張委員啓楷：但問題是民眾看起來不贊成這個政策啊！"],["劉部長世芳：這樣子的一個民調是從哪裡來的，我就比較不清楚了。"],["張委員啓楷：這是雅虎的民調，完全不贊成的有48.4%；不太贊成……"],["劉部長世芳：因為他們並不清楚所謂的民力是指什麼意思。"],["張委員啓楷：你宣傳完了之後，他們就會贊成就對了？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們前兩天才報告，所以現在要怎麼宣傳？我還是跟大家講一下，因為我看到在發生大規模天災的時候，所有的人都投入，也都是不分黨派、不分老少，所以這個是臺灣最重要的，是我們保全國力、重要的一個關於人的規模，既然是這樣的話，我們讓他們更專業化，如果發生狀況的時候，他們可以知道要去哪個地方，可以做更好垂直跟橫向的聯繫，我想這是非常得好……"],["張委員啓楷：請部長好好說明、好好宣傳，看看贊成的人會不會越來越多！","再來，總統講完之後，不想參加的有超過七成，這是臺灣的民意。"],["劉部長世芳：我要跟委員報告，這樣的民調資料，我是覺得太匆促了，為什麼呢？因為第一個，它沒有經過好好、完整的溝通，就好像在總統公布這樣一個全社會防衛韌性之後，媒體馬上就有很多不同的聲音……"],["張委員啓楷：部長認為差不多需要多少時間？一個月後再做一次民調？有需要嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告，我們現在在推廣的是防災士，立法院也是參加，而且很多人都有拿到證照，防災士的部分，現在願意參加的有三萬多人，很大的部分，我不能說全部，很大的部分都是民間團體，甚至有些是宗教團體，所以這個部分事實上應該要好好去推廣才對。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們比較客觀來看，我問一件事情，112年度，我看到你們的資料顯示，關於義勇警察人數統計，總共有七千多人，平均年齡高達50歲以上；然後義勇消防人員的平均年齡是47到48歲，這些人投入戰場，會不會年紀偏大？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我還是要一再強調，沒有所謂的投入戰場，現在義勇警察就是要協助警察維持社會治安，所以他在訓練的時候，就是怎麼樣加強治安上面應該有的技巧，譬如說，現在的技巧跟30年前警察所用的就不太一樣；義消也是一樣……"],["張委員啓楷：接著我要問你如何訓練，你講過這個事情，你說外圍圈的任務，即這40萬民力的任務是要警戒，我問你，現在要做什麼訓練？他的裝備在哪裡？你要給他什麼裝備？就是這40萬的民力，你準備做什麼訓練？裝備是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這個就不能夠一體適用，第一個，有的是正規的警察跟消防，有的是義勇警消，有的是民防，有的甚至是民間團體，有的甚至是宗廟團體，甚至有一些是屬於相關物資輸送等其他的企業組織，所以我們在碰到大規模狀況的時候，我們要根據他們能夠做的部分，幫他們做最好的訓練，但是最重要……"],["張委員啓楷：你們應該已經準備好了、有制度化了，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是這樣子的規劃，有些已經在準備了……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在手上就有資料，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：我不知道委員說的是哪一方面的資料。"],["張委員啓楷：你剛才說每一個都不一樣，所以你怎麼訓練？"],["劉部長世芳：這有功能上面的分組，第一個我們有提到……"],["張委員啓楷：能不能就你所謂功能的分組，包括你給他什麼裝備、什麼訓練……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們有民防訓練……"],["張委員啓楷：你一個禮拜內給我這份資料，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們有民防訓練、防災士訓練，然後還有役男的訓練跟備役役男的訓練。"],["張委員啓楷：除了法令以外，你剛才說這非常的完備，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：我們希望大家能夠團結一致。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，一般民眾聽到要有40萬的民力後，他們想要很明確知道……"],["劉部長世芳：不是要有40萬的民力，而是現在就有40萬的民力。"],["張委員啓楷：他會不會被納到裡面去，然後他要做什麼樣的訓練，我的要求很簡單，就是你剛才說的，你都有規定了嘛！那你就是哪些人可能在哪一個……"],["劉部長世芳：我們有些官方又規定，但是有些民間團體是要去跟他們拜託。"],["張委員啓楷：拜託，好啊！你差不多1個禮拜，你看要怎麼訓練、裝備等等的資料再給我，好不好？可以嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","傅崐萁、傅崐萁、傅崐萁委員不在。","林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在。","李彥秀、李彥秀、李彥秀委員不在。","邱志偉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:06:45","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:32:37+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154999","委員名稱":"羅智強","duration":405,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:25:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b94596a67cbbaeba8e2c265252fbe14a8d8006630137350772b7308b733e54c075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.60846875,"end":4.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.24534375,"end":5.8697187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.066593750000003,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.028468750000002,"end":17.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.59784375,"end":21.934718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.238468750000003,"end":45.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.60596875,"end":50.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.66846875,"end":67.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.735968750000005,"end":51.938468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.262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11:32:37","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154999","gazette":{"lineno":730,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時25分）有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：羅委員，你好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好，本次修正都市更新條例第六十五條，放寬原容積認定標準，讓過去在實施容積管制前，已經申請建造但還沒有完工合法的建物，未來如果要都更也能夠擇優於原容積來計算，高於現行最高1.5倍的容積獎勵，修法後，全臺將有8,200棟，六成以上的老建物受惠，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，在我們的報告裡面確實有提到，總計是8,216棟。"],["羅委員智強：好，我非常認同這一次修法放寬原容積的認定標準。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員智強：增加老舊建物參與都更改建的誘因，其實全臺住宅老化的情況越來越嚴峻，我相信部長有掌握到，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["羅委員智強：屋齡超過50年的有多少戶呢？我看到數據將近101萬戶。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以每9戶就有1戶是超過50年，實際上以目前國內1年能夠實際更新的房屋大概是6,000到10,000戶，大約啦，對不對？我看後面有人在點頭。"],["劉部長世芳：是我們的署長，對。"],["羅委員智強：相對於國內需要都更的數量，如果以前面老化的狀況來看，部長可不可以幫我算一下，大概多少年才可以完成重建？我幫你算一下，約300到400年啦！這過程中還有不計其數的屋舍又變老，因此都更的速度幾乎是趕不上房屋變老的速度。其實像在我的選區──大安區，為什麼居民也都非常關心都更的問題，因為大安區也算是發展比較早的一個都會，所以老舊建物真的是非常多，希望除了這次都更條例的放寬之外，內政部還是可以再多多思考，怎麼樣增加更多的誘因，讓我們的老舊建物可以改建，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝，也請委員多多指教。"],["羅委員智強：事實上，根據地震中心的研究，一旦北臺灣發生6.3以上的地震，光臺北地區就可能有4,000棟房屋倒塌，如果是921等級的大地震，會有3.5萬棟的房舍倒塌，所以這真的實在是不能夠輕忽的一件事情，也希望部長、行政機關能夠多多努力。","下一個，我想請教部長，賴總統去年競選時規劃所謂百萬社會住宅的目標，對不對？但其中我覺得水分是蠻多的啦，因為百萬社會住宅中最大的一塊是哪一塊？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，賴總統所提到的國家希望工程是寫百萬租屋家庭支持計畫，不是百萬社宅，這跟委員再做一下……"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長說，當然現在你們的標準跟以前蔡英文總統的標準就顯然不一樣，如果要改變，我也接受。以前蔡英文總統承諾是多少萬戶社會住宅，最先開始的時候？"],["劉部長世芳：20萬戶。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛，20萬戶，結果後來把包租代管、租金補貼都開始慢慢加在一起……"],["劉部長世芳：本來就是20萬戶的直接興建社會住宅，到年底之前大概是12萬戶，那後來有再加包租代管……"],["羅委員智強：來，我來問你一下，你這個所謂的百萬計畫，實質上裡面最大的成分是哪一塊？"],["劉部長世芳：您現在說的，如果是人數比較多的話，應該就是租金補貼的部分。"],["羅委員智強：我先跟您說，我也沒有反對租金補貼，但是我覺得資源配置的部分，我希望內政部能夠再去檢討一下。"],["劉部長世芳：好，請委員指教。"],["羅委員智強：我舉個例子，蔡英文總統承諾要建12萬戶社會住宅，是吧？"],["劉部長世芳：12萬戶是直接興建，然後8萬戶是包租代管。"],["羅委員智強：所以我剛剛講得沒錯，你們有些東西是後來把它加進去的。"],["吳署長欣修：沒有，住宅法裡面本來就……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我們就從蔡英文的部分來講，請問現在完工了多少戶？"],["劉部長世芳：對不起，現在完工的部分沒有那麼多，我現在手頭上的資料顯示，到年底的時候總共會有10萬戶左右。"],["羅委員智強：10萬戶今年年底可以完工？"],["劉部長世芳：動工的比例！"],["羅委員智強：今年年底可以完工10萬戶？"],["劉部長世芳：包括興建中的。"],["羅委員智強：我是說完工的部分，你剛剛講10萬戶，請問10萬戶什麼時候可以完工？部長知不知道？"],["劉部長世芳：完工10萬戶？"],["羅委員智強：就你們給我的資料，關於什麼時候可以完工，2031年底才能夠完工10萬戶，賴清德總統社會住宅的目標，包租代管不算、租金補貼不算，那是多少？"],["吳署長欣修：就是12萬再加13萬。"],["羅委員智強：25萬嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["羅委員智強：結果他任內預計完工7萬戶，平均每年不到1萬戶，照這種目標，我直接跟你說，要達成25萬戶社會社會住宅目標，一年1萬戶，你知道賴清德要做幾年總統？要做4任！沒錯吧？"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們現在對於興建社會住宅裡面所碰到的困難點，已經開始在做盤點，希望能夠增加社會住宅……"],["羅委員智強：25萬戶，就算讓他做兩任，也才10萬出頭戶而已；要做到4任、16年才可以到25萬戶，我要回頭說一件事情，因為今天質詢時間真的很有限，我覺得你們在社宅上的盡心真的是不夠，你在整個所謂居住正義的資源配置上，你應該也看到新聞了，最大的占比就是租金補貼，發錢我當然知道大家開心也比較容易，反觀社會住宅確實是一件比較難的工作，可是當你絕大的資源，幾百億都是花在租金補貼的時候，則社會住宅的資源就會被排擠、就會被減縮，我希望還是能夠把社會住宅這件事情當作一個優先政策，以上，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：報告委員，我們還是會努力的，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:06:57","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:25:42+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154998","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","duration":417,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:18:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bafd1cd7ebd5ef5f4e2c265252fbe14a8d800663013735077106c04e58201a3ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.64221875,"end":6.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.919093750000002,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.94846875,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.025968750000004,"end":83.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.64096875,"end":65.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.94284375000001,"end":80.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.06034375,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.03596875000001,"end":116.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.13721875,"end":103.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.12409375,"end":106.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.36846875,"end":108.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.35096875,"end":112.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.13971875,"end":114.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.89909375,"end":114.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.15221875,"end":164.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.96596875,"end":120.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.63659375,"end":120.68721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.19346875000001,"end":121.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.21034375,"end":121.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.15284375000002,"end":196.48971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11:25:42","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154998","gazette":{"lineno":697,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時18分）謝謝主席，我們也一樣請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員你好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。我想這一次的都市更新條例第六十五條修正草案，我想我們都是很支持的，尤其對於我們雙北來說非常地重要，因為占了占比快七十個百分點，都是有關的，我們在臺北市來說，30年的老屋也非常多，所以加速危老是一個共識。不過剛才王鴻薇委員也有提到的，我們在整個危老的條例當中，它是按照時程去遞減，如果它遞減到第8年，它是以一個百分點來說的話，那如果我們未來適用新的法規，能夠來加速危老的話，對於遞減下來所碰到時程的這一些民眾，會不會有不公平的問題？或者是說你們希望怎麼解決？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個、我們在修過危老都更條例之後，會用比較透明的方式把這個訊息儘量釋放給有需求危老都更的民眾知道，讓他們知道，既然他們的房子已經要都更或是必須要做危老重建，就表示越快越好……"],["徐委員巧芯：我的問題是說……"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們有比較多的容積獎勵。"],["徐委員巧芯：我懂、我懂，我的意思是，假設他們可能是在我們推出來的第6年到第8年，按照這個落日條款來說，他們取得的容積獎勵就比較少，對於這一些民眾來講，如果未來我們提出了新的政策，我們給的容積獎勵又比較高，對於這幾年進行都更的人來說，會不會有不公平的問題？"],["劉部長世芳：委員您預測的狀況有可能會發生，但是目前的狀況，為什麼我們都更條例修正那麼多次？就是希望能夠鼓勵越多現存的危老都更趕快進行危老跟都更的重建。"],["徐委員巧芯：我懂，我們都支持，我希望你們能夠把這個部分也考量進去，之後來做配套措施。"],["劉部長世芳：我們會考慮進來，謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：另外，在921的時候，不少這個……不是921，對不起，是在林肯大郡的時候，因為林肯大郡的關係，國土署在山坡地做了很多的限制，經過這麼多年之後，我們發現這個限制其實遠超過實際上運作會遇到的情形，如果現在有一些地方是足夠安全的，有沒有可能考慮放寬，或者是讓這些房舍可以改建，否則它被限制不能開發之後，原本在山坡地上就已經有的建物，不能去做任何的改建，經過這麼多年都越來越像廢棄的房屋，反而更加危險。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員的詢問，的確過去在新北還有部分的臺北市都有這類的案子，其實過去的區域計畫是允許地方政府自己重新檢討這些過去老丙建的土地……"],["徐委員巧芯：是。"],["吳署長欣修：但因為這幾年還是有一些山坡地致災的議題，我們曾經都有詢問過地方，大部分都還沒有想要主動再檢討，當然委員關心部分，我們也會再跟地方政府討論看看，有沒有要主動……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，因為我們發現某些山坡地經過這麼多年沒有任何問題跟狀況，但是它原本在上面的房舍老舊不堪，之後反而造成更多危險，這一點我希望我們能夠多注意，也沒有說一定要放寬或什麼的，但是如果有老舊房屋反而造成危險，那我們就要反過來想，要怎麼協助這些居民。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["徐委員巧芯：接下來，我要問一下部長，剛才王鴻薇委員也有問到，您說在全社會防衛韌性委員會裡面，針對宮廟部分是沒有提及的，因為它是點香火，不會放軍火，您是這麼說的嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以當時提到所謂的「彈藥放宮廟」，您認為這是一個假消息、是一個認知作戰，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：對，在我上任之後，到目前為止，我並沒有聽到這樣子的說法，所以我認為這是一個認知作戰的訊息。"],["徐委員巧芯：那您有去交接上任之前的時候……因為不是從你開始，內政部是延續下來的，請問一下，整個內政部上上下下的銜接過程都是假消息，都是認知作戰嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：歷任的內政部長從來沒有提到宮廟需要放軍火。"],["徐委員巧芯：來，我們看一下下一張簡報，這個是陸軍，當然內政部可能不知道，但是陸軍第四地區支援指揮部彈藥庫左營彈藥分庫在112年11月30號時發函，關於彈藥，你可以看他正本發給誰？某某股份有限公司、某某府、某某宮，所以宮廟跟社區中心還有活動中心在高雄，在國防部的政策，我知道當然不是你們內政部，但當時就已經有所謂的彈藥存在宮廟裡面……"],["劉部長世芳：彈藥存在宮廟裡面，不會吧？"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有、沒有，你看上面的公函嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：他寫的是支援協定書，我想如果用英文來講應該就是MOU吧！"],["徐委員巧芯：他寫的是什麼？他寫的MOU，他說呢……"],["劉部長世芳：MOU可簽、可不簽。"],["徐委員巧芯：第一點，規劃於各作戰區選定彈藥預屯點，縮減戰時彈藥的運補時序，滿足彈藥的補充能量。他們發函希望能夠簽訂協定書的包含宮廟，沒錯吧？我哪裡講錯了？沒有錯。但因為不是內政部，而是國防部陸軍發的，所以您可能不知道，這部分我不責怪，但是我必須要說，因為這些民防或者真的在戰時的時候，內政部跟國防部是協力的，所以像這樣的陸軍指揮部、陸軍兵工少校分庫長他們發了這樣子的公文，我想內政部也必須要知道、必須要了解，如果你們認為不妥適，也必須要橫向的向國防部溝通，請問部長能夠做得到嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員的提點，未來有這樣狀況的話，我們會跟國防部溝通。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我要再一次強調，這並不是一個假消息，也不是一個認知作戰，只是可能不是在內政部發生，你不能因為不是在內政部發生就說這都是假消息，我今天直接提供公文給你看，確實曾經有人，也就是國防部，想要把宮廟作為彈藥的儲存點，這樣的公文是存在的，是我們政府發放的，所以我希望未來部長您不要再說這是假消息跟認知作戰了，不在內政部不等於不存在在我們的國家政府體系，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","游顥委員、游顥委員，游顥委員不在。","請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:05:36","end_time":"2024-09-30T12:00:12+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154997","委員名稱":"李坤城","duration":336,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:54:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bab2a66bea26409fe10639eb4554d3b09d8006630137350773c0b16c68b9325bf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.43596875,"end":2.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.68346875,"end":11.168468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.30346875,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.88971875,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.85471875,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.664718750000002,"end":39.501593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.17659375,"end":41.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.830343750000004,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.812843750000006,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.086593750000006,"end":52.799093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.799093750000004,"end":53.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.81159375,"end":54.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.929718750000006,"end":56.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.28784375,"end":61.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.37159375,"end":62.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.586593750000006,"end":64.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.88159375000001,"end":68.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.94846875,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.97784375,"end":70.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.77096875000001,"end":71.969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Line嘛對不對要看他補件的情形對補件的期限所以補完件之後他可以再交如果你們認為說文件不夠齊全再交嘛對不對所以這個收件的最後這個收件的期限"},{"start":86.59,"end":87.231,"text":"主委你的任期到哪時候?"},{"start":100.35,"end":125.135,"text":"1月底到月底那現在會不會發生這種情況就是說好啦那如果他11月8號他就把這一個文件把它補齊了他送進去了那你們審查你們審查時間是多久30天加60天嗎對30天跟60天就是最長的3個月我們工作天對啊就是90個工作天嘛那有沒有這種情況就是說審查到一半你任期到了"},{"start":127.369,"end":156.653,"text":"不無可能 這個要看普見的情形對啦 我是說如果11月8號普進來了那12月 1月 2個月的時間而已耶那所以有可能說 你們審查到一半 你們現在委員有幾個人7位7位 有幾位1月底任期到期4位好 那剩下3位 是繼續審下去呢 還是就沒辦法審那個行政院長會提名 請去委員同意所以行政委員會推薦 但是我說如果在野黨杯葛的話在野黨杯葛這個人事案的話"},{"start":157.683,"end":184.521,"text":"我當然是 我也不希望啦我當然希望人事案預算案都能夠通過我現在講是一種情況嘛如果這樣子就只剩三位而且沒有主委沒有副主委只有三位對 那我是說是繼續審查還是有沒有辦法審查如果文件齊備假設它11月齊備了那如果還有足夠的委員來審就會"},{"start":186.101,"end":187.882,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":197.799,"end":226.767,"text":"對所以我的文件齊備你們在審嘛對不對那審當然會有yes或no嘛是阿如果沒有做出決定就是就是阿三個也可以做出決定嗎所以我們剛剛跟提到就是說11月8號假設齊備了11月8號就開始算30天加60天那假設跨過委員的任期我們正常情況下業務是不會中斷的阿所以因為我們新屆委員會有這個沒有阿就是如果最後只剩下三個啦"},{"start":229.702,"end":256.648,"text":"期間還是繼續進行啊對那所以三個還是可以繼續審就對了三個三個我認為說三個一樣可以這個進行準或不準的這個決定就對了三個有可能那要沒有請假沒有其他的情形那我也不建議有這種對啦我是講說最壞的情況是不是那就是說如果遇到只剩下三個的話是不是還會審查下去那還是沒有如果沒有沒辦法審查下去那因為時間到了所以他就準了"},{"start":258.169,"end":267.11,"text":"時間到沒有做出決定就是準的意思就是沒有意義嘛沒有意見他就可以做了對啊那會不會說那我意思就是說如果剩下三個的話到底能不能審查"},{"start":270.113,"end":293.303,"text":"三個開會要看是不是三個委員都能出席如果有請假或是甚麼三個都能夠出席的話能不能做審查三個出席是可以出席可以審議所以不會影響到最後這個因為我是擔心啦就是說因為剩下三個沒辦法開會讓他就最後就因為是因為你們沒辦法開會的結果讓他就準了會不會發生這種情況"},{"start":296.773,"end":306.603,"text":"三個委員可以繼續開會但是我要說明就是說為什麼法定上要設七個就是希望有多數的委員憑他們的專業跟經驗好好的實施這個案件這我都知道我是假設在野黨黨人這一個人是最後只剩下三個"},{"start":313.03,"end":313.07,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:54:36 - 12:00:12","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154997","gazette":{"lineno":896,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時54分）謝謝主席，我們請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。今天早上大家都在問Uber Eats跟foodpanda要合併的相關問題，我剛剛也都有聽。主委是說，5月14號收件，5月30號要求補正，所以現在還在補正的階段，沒有正式受理，對不對？如果foodpanda的文件一直無法備齊，那合併案現在是處於哪種法律效果？"],["李主任委員鎂：現在是在申報過程的補件程序。"],["李委員坤城：這段時間沒有期限就對了？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們目前是要求到11月8號。"],["李委員坤城：要求到11月8號？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["李委員坤城：要把這個文件補齊，但是補齊交給你們之後，如果你們認為還不夠，是不是還要再退件，叫他們再補？"],["李主任委員鎂：會請他們補正。"],["李委員坤城：所以這個11月8號也不是最終的deadline嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：要看它補件的情形。"],["李委員坤城：所以補完件之後，如果你們認為文件不夠齊全的話，就再交嘛！對不對？所以這個最後的收件期限還會再往後延嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：是。如果沒有補齊就沒有辦法進行結合。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：目前他們是有意願要結合的。"],["李委員坤城：對，如果他們補齊了，現在會不會發生一種情況，主委，你的任期到哪時候？"],["李主任委員鎂：1月底。"],["李委員坤城：好，那現在會不會發生一種情況，它如果11月8號就把文件補齊送進去了，你們審查的時間是多久？是30天加60天嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：對，30天跟60天。"],["李委員坤城：所以最長就是3個月？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們是算工作天。"],["李委員坤城：對，就是90個工作天嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有一種情況是，審查到一半時你的任期到了？"],["李主任委員鎂：不無可能，這個要看補件的情形。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！我是說如果它11月8號補進來了，就只有12月、1月兩個月的時間而已耶！所以有可能說，你們審查到一半……你們現在的委員總共有幾個人？"],["李主任委員鎂：7位。"],["李委員坤城：有幾位在1月底任期到期？"],["李主任委員鎂：4位。"],["李委員坤城：好，剩下3位是繼續審下去呢？還是就沒辦法審？"],["李主任委員鎂：行政院長會提名請立法院同意，所以新、舊委員銜接……"],["李委員坤城：如果在野黨杯葛這個人事案的話……"],["李主任委員鎂：我是不希望、不建議有這樣的情況。"],["李委員坤城：我當然是不希望啦！我們當然希望人事案、預算案都能夠通過，但我現在假設一種情況嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：如果這樣就只剩3位，而且沒有主委、沒有副主委，只有3位。"],["李委員坤城：對，但這樣是繼續審查呢？還是就沒有辦法審查？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果文件齊備，假設它11月齊備了，如果還有足夠的委員來審，就會審查；如果……"],["李委員坤城：對，文件齊備的話，那時候你們還是7個嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：對，但文件齊備後，如果符合剛才講的30天加60天都沒有去審，這個案子就等於准了，它就可以去做了。"],["李委員坤城：對，所以是文件齊備，你們才審，對不對？審完之後當然會有Yes或No嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：是，如果沒有作出決定，就是可以結合。"],["李委員坤城：3個月可以作出決定嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：所以我們剛剛提到，假設齊備了，11月8號就開始算30天加60天了。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["李主任委員鎂：假設跨過委員的任期，我們正常情況下，業務是不會中斷的，因為新舊委員都一定要交接。"],["李委員坤城：如果最後只剩下3個呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：期間還是會繼續進行。"],["李委員坤城：所以3個還是可以繼續審就對了？"],["李主任委員鎂：3個……"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是說，3個一樣可以進行「准」或「不准」的決定就對了？"],["李主任委員鎂：3個有可能……那要沒有請假、沒有其他的情形，我也不建議、不期待有這種情況。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！我講的是最壞的情況，如果遇到只剩下3個的話，是不是還會審查下去？如果沒有辦法審查下去，因為時間到了，所以它就准了？"],["李主任委員鎂：時間到，沒有作出決定，就是准的意思，就是沒有異議，沒有意見的話，它就可以做了。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！我的意思是說，若剩下3個的話，到底能不能審查？可以？"],["李主任委員鎂：3個開會要看3個委員是不是都能出席，如果有請假或是有什麼……"],["李委員坤城：對啦！我的意思是，如果3個都能夠出席的話，能不能審查？"],["李主任委員鎂：3個是可以出席、可以審議。"],["李委員坤城：也是可以審議？"],["李主任委員鎂：但是我……"],["李委員坤城：所以不會影響到最後的這個……因為我是擔心剩下3個人沒有辦法開會，然後要讓它……"],["李主任委員鎂：不過這麼重大的結合案應該是眾人……"],["李委員坤城：最後是因為你們沒有辦法開會，結果讓它就准了，會不會發生這種情況？"],["李主任委員鎂：3個委員可以繼續開會，但我要說明的是，為什麼法律上要設7個？就是希望有多數的委員，憑他們的專業跟經驗好好地審這個案件。"],["李委員坤城：這些我都知道，我是假設在野黨擋了這個人事案，最後只剩下3個。我是擔心會不會因為剩下三個沒辦法審下去，然後時間到了就准了，會不會發生這種情況？"],["李主任委員鎂：有可能發生這個情況。"],["李委員坤城：有可能發生這種情況？"],["李主任委員鎂：有可能，因為要看那三位委員……"],["李委員坤城：那我覺得他就會拖，拖到最後你們剩下三個，然後在野黨又不審的話，那最後就過了，會不會？"],["李主任委員鎂：有可能。"],["李委員坤城：有可能。好，本來有很多要問的，但卡在這邊。謝謝主委。謝謝主席。"],["主席：公平會要負責任，三個月的時間，根據公平交易法第十一條第七項、第八項，給你一延再延就是三個月，你要負起在三個月內審查的責任，不是說三個月過了就自然核准，這樣你就是刻意在放水。5月收件，到8月才補件，現在到年底你還不能夠審查，你們委員如果七個人沒有到的話，我們就重新再換委員啊！怎麼可以不負責任呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為期間到了……"],["主席：對，所以回去把公平交易法第十一條看清楚。謝謝。","接下來請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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Eats說要用307億元收購第一大的業者Full Panda那目前這兩家是台灣外送平台產業當中最大的兩家嘛對不對那合併之後市佔率大概是台灣整體外送市場的百分之多少"},{"start":43.866,"end":44.187,"text":"市場的結構會改變"},{"start":64.301,"end":78.33,"text":"那已經超過公平會認定的單一獨佔廠商的標準了嘛對不對遠遠超過啦 對不對所以未來我覺得公平會在審議要不要許可合併的時候真的要非常審慎去考慮"},{"start":79.31,"end":107.073,"text":"那除了說市場秩序公平競爭也要去思考今天對國內相關的業者消費者乃至於外送這個勞工的一個權益的影響我覺得公平會都要審慎的思考要麻煩我們的李主委那麼實際上剛剛我們主委已經講兩大龍頭業者合併後的市佔率是超過八成也已經超過了公平法對於獨佔者的規定"},{"start":108.214,"end":122.623,"text":"那麼對於相關同業者就可能會產生不公平競爭的疑慮那麼我們就以過去公平會處理的案例來看看說目前這個申請案就是還沒進到公平會對不對"},{"start":125.812,"end":154.7,"text":"已經到公平位但是文件還沒有齊備我們沒有正式受理還沒正式受理文件未齊備我想以過去的一個狀況來問問主委那您對於這個Uber Eats跟Full Panda的一個這個結合那麼合併的這個事情你們的態度看法是什麼過去啊國內的KTV有兩大龍頭是錢貴跟好樂迪嘛對不對是那這兩家的合計市佔率是大概是多少"},{"start":156.428,"end":170.718,"text":"有超過5成因為各縣市不一樣我看的資料是達到7成啦他們申請也非常合併非常多次嘛那公平會準了嗎沒有準理由是什麼我們整個評估經濟利益跟縣市競爭的不利益那當時個別這個不準的理由可能要再進一步"},{"start":181.089,"end":210.187,"text":"我看了一下資料 除了你剛剛講的以外簡單講就合併之後的市場力量太大了啦然後呢 可能對於會減少對上游唱片發行業支付版權的費用也可能會同時提高下游KTV消費者唱歌的費用因為他們會居於很大的一個價格的一個談判競爭優勢嘛那既然這個錢櫃跟好樂迪會有這個問題請問Uber Eats跟Food Panda會不會也有同樣的問題"},{"start":214.581,"end":238.623,"text":"這是共同就是市場力變大了以後將來這個Uber Eats提價的能力還有對他的利害關係人談判力量的能力這個都會再考量我這樣講這兩個國際外送平台龍頭他已經有很大的技術跟科技的優勢就本來市場力量其實就很大了現在就很大了"},{"start":239.324,"end":240.687,"text":"美單抽取商品價格的百分之多少 有掌握嗎?"},{"start":253.336,"end":275.675,"text":"外送費大概30到40或是28到38不等要看這個餐廳的結構跟他的客戶數大概所以28到40都可能吧 對不對那這比例是非常高的囉其實對於一般商家來講負擔是很重的吧 對不對他已經有很大的價格優勢那如果他把抽成拉得更高的話"},{"start":276.556,"end":300.731,"text":"那麼對於苦心經營的餐廳或小失業者那更是更大的一個威脅我舉個例子 主委假設你開一家小餐廳除非你不打算接外賣的訂單那一旦他條件開的不管是28 30 40甚至45他開的這個價格這個所謂的費率高到你無法承受的地步的話那你怎麼辦"},{"start":302.435,"end":312.323,"text":"你跟他根本沒有任何可以抗衡的力量對不對這是為什麼外界非常擔心這個合併案會對業者產生影響同時如果成本提高可能會轉嫁給誰"},{"start":314.827,"end":314.847,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:48:44 - 11:54:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154996","gazette":{"lineno":868,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時48分）有請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：主委好。外送平臺Uber Eats說要用307億元收購第一大的業者foodpanda，目前這兩家是臺灣外送平臺產業當中最大的兩家，對不對？合併之後，市占率大概是臺灣整體外送市場的百分之多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：大概八成以上。"],["羅委員智強：八成以上嘛！所以換言之，它必然會運用它非常龐大的獨占力量，對上下游業者進行影響嘛！這個應該顯而易見啦！主委，你覺得呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：市場的結構會改變。"],["羅委員智強：好，已經超過公平會認定的單一獨占廠商的標準了嘛！遠遠超過啦！對不對？所以未來公平會審議要不要許可合併案的時候，真的要非常審慎去考慮，除了市場秩序、公平競爭，也要去思考對國內相關的業者、消費者，乃至於外送勞工權益的影響，我覺得公平會都要審慎地思考，要麻煩李主委。","事實上剛剛主委已經講了，兩大龍頭業者合併後的市占率超過八成，也已經超過了公平法對獨占者的規定，對於相關同業者，可能會有產生不公平競爭的疑慮。我們就以過去公平會處理的案例來看看，目前這個申請案，還沒有進到公平會，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是已經送到公平會，但是文件還沒有齊備，我們沒有正式受理。"],["羅委員智強：還沒有正式受理，文件未齊備嘛！我想以過去的狀況來問問主委，您對於Uber Eats跟foodpanda的結合、合併一事，你們的態度、看法是什麼？過去國內KTV有兩大龍頭是錢櫃跟好樂迪，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["羅委員智強：這兩家合計市占率大概是多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：超過五成，但各縣市不一樣。"],["羅委員智強：我看的資料是達到七成啦！他們申請合併也非常多次，公平會准了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有准。"],["羅委員智強：都沒准，理由是什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們整個評估經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利益，當時個別不准的理由可能要再進一步……"],["羅委員智強：我看了一下資料，除了你剛剛講的以外，簡單講就是合併之後的市場力量太大了啦！可能會減少對上游唱片發行業支付版權的費用，也可能會同時提高下游KTV消費者唱歌的費用。因為他們會基於一個很大的價格談判競爭優勢。既然錢櫃跟好樂迪會有這個問題，請問Uber Eats跟foodpanda會不會也有同樣的問題？"],["李主任委員鎂：他們有同樣要考慮的因素，這是共同的，也就是市場力變大了以後，將來Uber Eats提價的能力還有對它利害關係人談判力量的能力都會再考量。"],["羅委員智強：我這樣講好了，這兩個國際外送平台龍頭已經有很大的技術跟科技的優勢，本來的市場力量就很大了，現在就很大了，可以來決定上下游相關的費率。它合併之後，其力量當然就更大了，比方說現在對於商家，每單大概抽取商品價格的百分之多少，有掌握嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：就我們瞭解，外送費大概占30%到40%，或是28%到38%不等，要看這個餐廳的結構跟客戶數。"],["羅委員智強：所以大概28%到40%都可能嘛！對不對？這個比例是非常高的，其實對於一般商家來講，負擔是很重的，對不對？它已經有很大的價格優勢了。如果它把抽成拉得更高的話，對於苦心經營的餐廳或小吃業者就是更大的威脅了。","我舉個例子，假設主委開一家小餐廳，除非不打算接外賣的訂單，不管是28%、30%、40%，甚至是45%，一旦它開的費率高到你無法承受的地步的話，你怎麼辦？你跟它根本沒有任何可以抗衡的力量，對不對？這就是為什麼外界非常擔心，這個合併案會對業者產生影響。同時如果成本提高，可能會把價格轉嫁給誰？"],["李主任委員鎂：消費者。"],["羅委員智強：消費者嘛！更何況，我剛剛講的，這是一模一樣的情況，現在的外送員還可以兩家平台比價，對不對？你一旦變成一家之後，實質上他也失去了跟外送平台要求合理待遇的空間，所以真的拜託主委，聽聽消費者的心聲、聽聽小商家的心聲，聽聽外送員的心聲，好好想想這個合併案將來要處理的時候該怎麼辦。謝謝。"],["主席：請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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中秋節就是禮拜二嘛齁,再來的我們的國慶,禮拜四,下禮拜四,欸是賭掉了,啊你都不放啦齁,我請問你啦,這個放假是不是你應該考慮到,老百姓的需要,社會的需要,對吧?"},{"start":193.837,"end":204.005,"text":"我現在就明確的問你因為時間有限喔就是民暑節日我就具體講具體講春節大家要不要被團圓啊家庭要團圓啊中秋節要團圓的"},{"start":213.921,"end":224.527,"text":"這個最少最少春節中秋節端午節這三大節日有可以不可以就讓他連續放假我跟委員講我們現在一定會納進來的就春節跟就是清明掃墓"},{"start":233.591,"end":258.46,"text":"親民掃墓是大部分的人都會回鄉這兩個反而是中秋跟端午我們讓他有彈性因為如果經常連的話事實上我們現在改了新的遊戲規則明年會調整一次放假後年不會調整反而你有需要你去請一天這樣可以疏散這個人流不然每次有一次就沒兩次一定被人連"},{"start":260.046,"end":274.19,"text":"沒有啦我現在說的就是民宿你現在只有對春節跟掃墓嘛對不對那我說加一個中秋啦我覺得中秋需要啦因為中秋都要賞月第二天大家晚上這麼久活著第二天起不來啊這種東西考慮到家庭團圓就在這裡啦我委員報告中秋啊要唱應該是中秋節的假日因為你賞月是在15號賞不是在14號"},{"start":286.334,"end":287.634,"text":"我記得我在當兵的時候那個長官就講很清楚啊"},{"start":311.275,"end":335.715,"text":"他說我們給你15號沒辦法賞月你就16號有人說我提早給你賞月幹我都有啦14號也有賞月也有16號賞月的也有15號賞月都有啦不能用你的主觀就把它overlight這個事情啦所以我現在跟你講的就是除了春節加清明的掃墓之外plus一個啦中秋節啦"},{"start":336.616,"end":336.636,"text":"賴委員．"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:45:42 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台灣現在也看到很多建築業標榜他是綠建築但是綠建築的標準在哪裡也許建築法規有"},{"start":312.562,"end":336.393,"text":"但是對於消費者而言他接受到的這些資訊是否是公平的他有辦法自己很清楚的知道這個資訊可能他的訊息沒有給你完整他只是部分使用綠電事實上他的生產過程並不是整個都是符合這個碳排的一個效果"},{"start":337.253,"end":339.355,"text":"現在有很多的人也跳出來說我要開課程"},{"start":361.48,"end":384.497,"text":"因為我要教這些企業怎樣可以達到淨零怎樣是可以把碳盤採你們的產品怎樣可以碳中和然後就有很多人出來開課那這個開課的過程基本上他也沒有辦法讓這些企業因為上了這些課後他就可以取得相關的認證或者是怎樣的證書但是勒"},{"start":387.019,"end":390.764,"text":"但是他們在於開課的時候,他們都會說我們是怎樣的,我們是怎樣經過認證過的所以就會產生很多類似這樣的一個詐欺,因為他們這個課程相對很貴"},{"start":401.121,"end":425.912,"text":"那這公平會這件事要不要管就是說他如果說他上了這個課可以拿到什麼認證結果沒有那我們會去瞭解你是講的那個認證是什麼認證那如果民死不服這個在公平網也是有介入的空間注意我要跟大家講這個事情會越來越多這個你不用懷疑因為整個國家整個全世界全球都是這樣在走啊所以每一個企業第一自身有壓力"},{"start":427.601,"end":454.71,"text":"第二企業也想要讓消費者相信他們是有做到的可是事實上他們有沒有做到這件事情是一個大的問號因為他們需要第三方的驗證包括這個第三方的驗證是不是真的符合這個也有問題所以你現在就是說驗證公司這間公司是什麼來歷的他是阿薩布魯的公司還是他真的全世界走得通的驗證的公司"},{"start":456.082,"end":471.355,"text":"這個你們也必須要,你們都要查清楚啊,你不能夠整個大家都在推我們碳費開始課證齁,企業開始說好,我們大家都要,已經有這個碳費的壓力了,大家都要改進,主要改進的時候很多人都要被詐騙去,會發生喔"},{"start":476.708,"end":505.848,"text":"我認為你們是真的要注意而已要開始了解甚至你們應該針對這樣的反票率的詐騙你們就要開始有一個專案然後開始去研究然後說未來是不是需要用法令的方式你們也可以是希望行政院來看哪一個部門環境部還是怎樣總是要立法嘛或者是法務部啊"},{"start":507.048,"end":521.215,"text":"我告訴你這事情我們現在我是說的比較輕鬆,這些事我敢預測,未來他這是變一個選學,這個選學會變成一門很大的生意,既然變成很大的生意,他就有很多個人是詐騙的,所以我們要去杜絕,好不好?好,謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:39:45 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要第一先跟學門內的學者先請教"},{"start":254.357,"end":280.428,"text":"我知道剛剛主委有討論有說接下來有三場嘛我建議這不是溝通會議啦這是請教會議啦這是請教啦請教大家該怎麼做啦這是第一個第二個剛剛其實林副主委有講到接下來大家會很重視這個所謂調適的科研嘛對不對那我自己非常非常在意調適的問題因為大家都知道氣候邊遷氣候的變化很有可能其實沒有回不太有回頭路我們只能減緩"},{"start":282.11,"end":303.163,"text":"但可能還是會遇到的風險我們必須靠調試來去處理但我要講為什麼我知道為什麼這些學者非常那麼重視跨領域以調試來說調試就是一個完全需要跨領域的事情今天如果我在南部有一個地方養殖他這個養殖密集區遇到海平面上升"},{"start":303.843,"end":328.202,"text":"所以造成我養殖可能會有一些衝擊或影響我可能要怎麼做我先要氣候科學來做情境的評估跟模擬我需要有一些空間資訊來去做我這個有沒有空間資訊或者是都是計劃規劃的調整我甚至需要社會科學來去討論我的產業有沒有可能做轉型最後才是政策溝通這完全就是一個跨領域的事情是我同意"},{"start":328.462,"end":344.649,"text":"主委,為什麼大家這麼在意跨領域這個事情?就我自己跟這些學界們的合作裡面,過去就都是這些事情。所以這是為什麼大家在意的事情。我最後要問主委一個事情,我就直問了。主委,現在我們600位學者出來連署,大家有擔心喔?會不會秋後算帳啊?不會。"},{"start":350.25,"end":350.41,"text":"公平公開公正"},{"start":374.932,"end":375.673,"text":"主委請回謝謝洪申翰委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:42:09 - 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偉中線委員質詢有請人事長昭偉早"},{"start":20.68,"end":32.601,"text":"人事長早 人事長首先先請教老問題就是假官助理法制化之後那你在這邊可不可以簡單說明一下到底會不會排擠到總額"},{"start":35.104,"end":53.801,"text":"我跟委員報告一下 檢察官助理這一次的修法裡面他有特別提到聘用跟業用檢察官如果是業用檢察官就不會排擠到延額 如果是聘用的檢察官就會排擠到延額主要的差別在這裡 讓他在使用上有彈性"},{"start":55.694,"end":83.223,"text":"法務部長前一天我有跟他提到談到這個部分那這可能就再麻煩你們多幫忙看能夠讓法務部怎麼樣運作上面能夠更順利一點好不好因為這問題上回請問過好幾次我跟趙偉報告大概目前大概他們已經有已經用了250位的業用的檢察官助理了"},{"start":83.743,"end":91.431,"text":"那未來到底要用多少?是要用業用的還是聘用的?我想我們也尊重法務部"},{"start":92.759,"end":95.121,"text":"目前我們國家到底是依據什麼法令來讓公私立學校還有公家機關放颱風架"},{"start":122.205,"end":146.075,"text":"事實上我跟召委報告根本我們沒有所謂的颱風架根本目前的所有的架別沒有一個叫颱風架只是說交通不便由各個地方政府或者學校基於他的首屬的同仁或學生的安全他們實施就是不用來上班上課的"},{"start":149.458,"end":157.147,"text":"我幫您補充各縣市政府是依據天然災害停止上班上課作為辦法是用這個辦法但是裡面還有一個規定說這是人事總處"},{"start":165.537,"end":167.759,"text":"市府的首長其實對這件事是很痛苦的放與不放是很痛苦的"},{"start":185.612,"end":208.899,"text":"我跟召委報告一下,事實上從民國83年我們就授權地方政府,因為地方政府的那種差異性,你像管政府會對鄉鎮公售,你像今天蘭嶼就放假,那我人總我怎麼有辦法去直接去幫蘭嶼在即時去用那個放假的這樣的一個措施,事實上"},{"start":209.679,"end":236.463,"text":"我們定這個辦法是授權給地方政府當然剛才趙委提的就是像今天今天大家就有些人就會有一些期待嘛反正每一次的可能有颱風進來大家就有一些期待那個期望值高還是低的問題不過這個到最後為了讓他有效力還是要授權地方政府第一線的人他比較清楚"},{"start":239.387,"end":263.78,"text":"但是這個有時候我覺得齁未來這個天然災害的價如果說是由中央來統一做一個全國性的盤點這個會不會比較好因為地方縣市首長的決策那他們背負了很大的壓力阿我早晚報告啦其實7月30號我們就有找所有地方政委來開過會阿他們結論還是要自己決定啦"},{"start":268.291,"end":295.005,"text":"因為他覺得中央訂全國的遊戲規則那個有些地方因為有時風頭但是路好好但是有風風風沒大但是那個路回去嘛回去稍微已經地方政府比我們還清楚嘛他地方就可以自己去做這個決定鄉鎮工作也好好好也好他就可以去停了嘛這樣好有彈性啦7月30號開會的結論是他們還是要自己決定"},{"start":297.967,"end":324.225,"text":"還是中央的意思還是地方政府自己要求?對,他們要求啊,不然他們會去罵啊這部分跟我在市府待過的經驗值不一樣其實常常他們市長在決策要不要放假他們是想破腦袋到底要還是不要因為有時候他放了然後隔天又出大太陽這個都很常發生嘛"},{"start":325.171,"end":325.191,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":344.165,"end":344.966,"text":"公務人員離職跟自殺創新高"},{"start":373.985,"end":376.267,"text":"國軍在113年到6月底為止也有12個人自殺有關國軍以外,公務員有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":396.679,"end":414.363,"text":"公務人員的自殺我們有統計大概每10萬人大概3點多到6點多這個range每一年的情況不太一樣那全國民眾的話大概每10萬人大概有13到16反而公務機關相對於一般"},{"start":415.904,"end":429.579,"text":"總人民總國民的比例還是相對比較低啦這個是實際的數據呈現是這樣第二個就是說我們政府機關事實上也是一直在挖起一個點就是說"},{"start":430.18,"end":452.737,"text":"最近這幾年大家那種心理的壓力會造成一些遺憾的事情發生所以我們也在強化整個政府機關EAP員工協助方案能夠更落實更擴大地去協助那一些需要幫助的人因為有些人是隱性的他們說出來你不知道嘛所以我們也希望說當委"},{"start":454.438,"end":455.88,"text":"但是這個也是老問題啦,人事長這也是老問題"},{"start":473.302,"end":473.322,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":488.934,"end":490.015,"text":"那其實你剛剛一直有在提到說是"},{"start":516.377,"end":544.245,"text":"是從那個紀念日及節日實施辦法這個部分來的嘛但是這個是規範勞工啊不是我意思是說他所提到的勞動節他並沒有說公務員不能放勞動節嘛因為我跟你講齁我看了一下齁沒關係我們先看下一張那個powerpoint"},{"start":549.565,"end":553.769,"text":"今天是跟節日實施辦法第5條第2項所提到的勞動節的勞工放假那我看這個應該是從勞基法的第2條跟第37條所提到的勞動節而來的嘛"},{"start":573.53,"end":598.662,"text":"但是這個紀念日跟節日實施辦法第5條他並沒有說勞動節這個東西只有這個公務員不能夠一起放啊那你為什麼當作說因為這個所以公務員不行然後另外就是說因為我去看了其他的國家比如說以美國為例好了他的勞動節是9月的第一個星期一那他這個也是全國一起放"},{"start":600.695,"end":617.584,"text":"所以我不知道說為什麼這個東西在我們台灣好像變成是一個一個你是卡住自己所以這公務員不能夠一起放然後導致現在很多家庭你也知道嘛很多家庭現在都雙薪家庭啊然後變成說小孩放假父母沒有放的問題發生啊"},{"start":619.434,"end":641.776,"text":"就是昭緯你那個投影片這裡寫的齁在紀念日及節日實施辦法的第5條第2項勞動節他就寫勞工放假嘛你覺得勞工可以放假他沒有嘛所以要剛才改嘛要改掉我們的形式律就會跟著這個來改了吧因為他只有identify很明確的寫勞工放假"},{"start":643.624,"end":649.051,"text":"法律並沒有禁止你們去做你們立法的動作"},{"start":652.506,"end":667.372,"text":"因為他對他確實有講這個勞工放假那我翻了所有的法條大概從勞基法這邊能夠比較找到他的依據但是沒有沒有說你們不能夠提出對於行政院這邊去做出其他的修法的建議啊還是你們認為說是上限的問題假日上限的問題"},{"start":674.525,"end":694.495,"text":"上線的問題就是那個19年6月30號啊大宴的附帶決議有寫啊我們一年大概115到116人長這更不對你看一下齁89年這附帶決議啊他是在陳述一件事實啊所以內政部內政部他他有他的那個"},{"start":696.936,"end":718.058,"text":"放假一日可行性報告裡面他自己去解釋立法院的附帶決議叫做上限其實我對內政部的這個報告我是覺得不以為然所以你不能就直接引用他們這個邏輯我跟你講你自己看我們現在包括你上面的字"},{"start":719.059,"end":746.35,"text":"我們談到的115至116日這個東西是在陳述放假總日數的一個事實狀況並不是說去加一個限制欸你們不能這樣亂解釋這將來我也會跟內政部討論這個問題啊那如果你說你說這個這個叫做限制那為什麼會有115或116兩種不同的規格那如果你是說這跟論年或平年有關的話那我跟你講"},{"start":747.31,"end":764.868,"text":"今年是115天但今年是論年那為什麼是115那明年明年是平年但是有116天所以這115跟116這不是上限嘛如果是上限一定是一個標準數字"},{"start":766.533,"end":781.707,"text":"那如果你說唯一有可能是平年論年的差別但是我剛剛跟你講了今年跟去年也是平年跟論年但是也跟115、116無關嘛所以你們不能動不動就拿這個當作是放假的上限"},{"start":783.393,"end":807.653,"text":"你剛講的我就謝謝趙偉啦 其實這件事我覺得我也是尊重內政部的認知啦因為罵帳套也是他要套嘛 今日節日時事辦法他如果把五一他不要寫勞工 那很多東西就清楚了嘛那問題他就把你寫在那 啊這幾天他在頂的 還不是我們頂的啊我們又不能用立法把它塗掉啊"},{"start":811.556,"end":816.681,"text":"他確實是有勞工但是他是為了保障勞工而來對不對但是他並沒有立法做其他的限制所以你們也應該做你們該做的事你也要保障公務員啊"},{"start":833.217,"end":834.418,"text":"我們不是被騙我們是尊重他弄錯你也尊重啦"},{"start":864.819,"end":885.065,"text":"主管機關啦好啦最後我跟你們講一下齁就是那個雖然這一次我們有說讓這個總預算退回這個程序委員會但你們不要擔心這跟加薪3%這個沒有關係啦今天國民黨已經點出是哪幾個問題了那剛剛因為我想你剛剛在回答其他委員的問題的時候"},{"start":886.525,"end":886.625,"text":"謝謝吳總召 謝謝人事長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:24:24 - 11:39:25","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154991","gazette":{"lineno":704,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時24分）好，謝謝主席，我們麻煩人事長。"],["主席：好，有請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：召委早。"],["吳委員宗憲：人事長早。人事長，首先先請教老問題啦，檢察官助理法制化之後，你可不可以簡單說明一下，到底會不會排擠到總額？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，檢察官助理這一次的修法裡面有特別提到聘用跟約用檢察官，如果是約用檢察官就不會排擠到員額，如果是聘用的檢察官就會排擠到員額，主要的差別在這裡，讓他在使用上有彈性啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，因為這個部分是全國檢察官都很在意的一個問題，法務部長前幾天來我有跟他談到，可能再麻煩你們多幫忙，看如何能夠讓法務部在運作上面更順利一點，好不好？因為這老問題上會期已經問過好幾次了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟召委報告，目前他們大概已經用了250位約用的檢察官助理，未來到底要用多少，是要用約用的還是聘用的，我們也尊重法務部。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，因為它跟打詐有關啦！所以這個部分可能要麻煩你，否則這個6,900人的上限其實很快就會用完了，好，謝謝。","我現在請教下一個問題，其實這也都是一個長期的問題，其他的委員也都有問過。我想請教一下人事長，目前我們國家到底是依據什麼法令來讓公私立學校還有公家機關放颱風假？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟召委報告，事實上我們根本沒有所謂的颱風假，目前所有的假別沒有一個叫颱風假，只是說交通不便，所以由各個地方政府或者學校基於它所屬的同仁或學生的安全，由他們實施不用來上班上課。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我們簡單來說，我幫您補充啦，各縣市政府是依據天然災害停止上班及上課作業辦法，對不對？是用這個辦法。但是裡面它有說放不放假是由人事總處規定的，結果現在放不放假變成是地方首長來扛這個責任，這個是不是應該要由中央來統一做決策會比較好？不然我跟你講，我自己待過市政府，市府的首長其實對這件事是很痛苦的，放與不放是很痛苦的。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟召委報告一下，事實上從民國83年我們就授權地方政府，因為地方政府的差異性，例如縣政府下面那些鄉鎮公所……像今天蘭嶼就放假，這樣我們人總怎麼有辦法直接去幫蘭嶼即時宣布放假這樣的一個措施？事實上，我們訂這個辦法是授權給地方政府，當然剛才召委提的，像今天有些人就會有一些期待嘛！反正每一次可能有颱風進來，大家就有一些期待，那個期望值高還是低的問題啦！不過到最後為了讓它有效率，還是要授權地方政府、第一線的人他比較清楚啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我覺得未來這個天然災害的假，如果是由中央統一來做一個全國性的盤點，這樣會不會比較好？因為由地方縣市首長決策，他們背負了很大的壓力啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟召委報告，其實7月30號我們就有找所有地方政府來開過會，他們結論還是要自己決定啦！因為他覺得中央來訂全國的遊戲規則，有些地方……因為有時候風很大但是路是好的；有的風雨不大路卻斷掉嘛！斷掉什麼的地方政府一定比我們還清楚嘛！這樣地方就可以自己去做這個決定，鄉鎮公所也好，學校也好，它就可以去停了嘛！這樣比較有彈性啦！7月30號開會的結論是他們還是要自己決定。"],["吳委員宗憲：是中央的意思還是地方政府自己要求？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：地方的要求啊，不然他們會被罵啊！反正一定要有「爐主」在啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦，沒關係，人事長，這個部分跟我在市府待過的經驗值不一樣，其實常常市長他們在決策要不要放假是想破腦袋，到底要還是不要，因為有時候他放了，然後隔天又出大太陽，這個都很常發生嘛！所以你說這個責任他們會這麼喜歡去擔，我覺得奇怪，不然這樣好不好，我們再找機會，我再跟你研究一下，看看這個東西我們可以做怎麼樣的精進。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟召委報告一下，可能就是風力的等級，大概會有列幾個條件，然後這個條件它可能不是單一認定，而是複合式決定的啦，我覺得可能可以從這裡來做一些建議。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，我們下一個問題，我想跟你討教一下，我稍微蒐集了一些資料，從107年到113年這段時間，我們發現112年公務人員離職跟自殺都創新高，而且比111年高非常的多；一樣在國軍的部分，在113年到6月底為止也有12個人自殺。我想要請教一下人事長，有關這個部分，當然在國軍以外，公務員的部分你們有沒有什麼想法，有沒有什麼可以做的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實我跟委員報告，公務人員的自殺我們有統計每10萬人大概百分之三點多到六點多這個range，每一年情況不大一樣；至於全國民眾每10萬人大概有百分之十三到十六，反而公務機關相對於一般民眾的比例還是相對比較低啦，實際的數據呈現是這樣。第二個，事實上我們政府機關也是一直在watch一個點，就是最近這幾年大家心理的壓力會造成一些遺憾的事情發生，所以我們也在強化整個政府機關EAP員工協助方案能夠更落實、更擴大的去協助那一些需要幫助的人，因為有些人是隱性的，他沒說出來你不知道嘛！所以我們也希望身為他的主管或周圍的同仁隨時去觀察，看你周圍的同仁有沒有異常的，主動去協助，因為我覺得這件事情應該是要幾個構面一起來努力，這樣才有辦法大幅降低。"],["吳委員宗憲：人事長，這也是老問題，你現在是最高職位的，你還是得幫忙想一下辦法看怎麼解決，你不能拿它跟一般民眾來比，你要去看它是今年比去年高很多，這才是問題嘛！而去年又比前年高很多，這個才是問題嘛！你不能說因為公務員自殺的比例比一般人民低，所以就怎麼怎麼，這不是理由啦，好不好？這部分你這樣講，我就不能接受啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，我們會針對過去幾年來做……"],["吳委員宗憲：我們再延續剛剛前面委員所提的問題，就是有關勞動節全民放假的問題，其實你剛剛一直有提到說是從紀念日及節日實施辦法來的，但是這個是規範勞工啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是，是全國民眾。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，我的意思是它所提到的勞動節並沒有說公務員不能放勞動節嘛！我跟你說，在我來看，紀念日及節日實施辦法第五條第二項所提到的勞動節勞工放假，我看這個應該是從勞基法第二條及第三十七條所提到的勞動節而來的，但是紀念日及節日實施辦法第五條並沒有說勞動節這個東西公務員不能夠一起放，你們為什麼當作說因為這個，所以公務員不行？另外，我去看了其他國家，譬如以美國為例好了，他們的勞動節是9月第一個星期一，但這個也是全國一起放。所以我不知道為什麼這個東西在我們臺灣好像變成卡住自己，所以公務員不能夠一起放？你也知道現在很多家庭都是雙薪家庭，然後就變成小孩放假，但父母沒有放假的問題發生。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：召委，你的投影片這裡寫，在紀念日及節日實施辦法第五條第二項，勞動節就是寫勞工放假嘛！就是只有勞工可以放假，其他的沒有，所以要在那邊改，那邊如果改掉，我們的行事曆就會跟著這個來改了，因為它只有identify很明確寫勞工放假。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，法律並沒有禁止你們去做立法的動作，對，它確實有講是勞工放假，但我翻了所有法條，大概從勞基法這邊比較能夠找到它的依據，但是並沒有說你們不能夠對於行政院這邊做出其他修法的建議啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我知道召委的意思。"],["吳委員宗憲：對啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我知道召委的意思啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：還是你們認為是假日上限的問題？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：上限的問題就是89年6月30號大院的附帶決議有寫，我們一年大概是115到116……"],["吳委員宗憲：那個更不對，人事長，這個更不對。你看一下89年這個附帶決議，它是在陳述一件事實，所以內政部在放假日可行性報告裡面自己去解釋立法院的附帶決議叫做上限，但是對於內政部這個報告，我是覺得不以為然，所以你不能就直接引用他們這個邏輯。我跟你講，你自己看我們現在powerpoint上面的字，我們談到的115至116日這個東西是在陳述放假總日數的一個事實狀況，並不是去加一個限制，你們不能這樣亂解釋，將來我也會跟內政部討論這個問題。好，如果你說這個叫做限制，那為什麼會有115或116兩種不同的規格？如果你說這跟閏年或平年有關的話，我跟你講，今年是115天，但今年是閏年，為什麼是115？明年是平年，但是有116天，所以這115跟116並不是上限，如果是上限就一定是一個標準數字，如果你說唯一有可能是平年、閏年的差別，但是我剛剛跟你講了，今年和去年就是閏年跟平年，但是也跟115、116無關，所以你們不能動不動就拿這個當作是放假的上限。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝召委，針對這件事情，我覺得我們也是尊重內政部他們的認知，因為「肉粽頭」也是他們要解的，紀念日及節日實施辦法如果五一不要寫勞工，那很多東西就清楚了嘛！問題是就寫在那邊了，而且這個規定也是他們訂的，並不是我們訂的，我們又不能用立可白把它塗掉。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然不行啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對啊！問題就是它有決定權，要從「肉粽頭」來……"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我們的認知是這樣，它確實是有勞工，它是為了保障勞工而來，對不對？但是它並沒有立法做其他限制，所以你們也應該做你們該做的事，你也要保障公務員啊，對不對？內政部都知道要保障勞工，你卻不知道要保障公務員，這一點我是不太能接受，好不好？這部分也要麻煩你們研議一下。我剛剛只是要跟你們提醒一下，不要拿116或115說這個是立法院的限制。我跟你講，你從那個附帶決議的文字來看，根本不是限制，內政部也在騙人啦！你們不要跟著這樣走啦！好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們不是被騙，我們是尊重內政部。"],["吳委員宗憲：它弄錯，你也尊重啦，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒辦法啊！它是法規的主管機關啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦，最後我跟你們講一下，雖然這一次我們有說讓總預算退回程序委員會，但你們不要擔心，這跟加薪3%沒有關係啊！今天國民黨已經點出是哪幾個問題了，因為你剛剛在回答其他委員問題的時候，我看你那個回答的方式，我覺得我再跟你解釋清楚一下，這個並沒有什麼3%受影響的這種事，不要讓事實查核中心再出來打臉了。好，謝謝各位。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳總召，謝謝人事長。接下來有請鄭委員天財質詢，時間5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","林思銘","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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有沒有把握有把握啦 因為我也不是壞人啦所以我想大家會諒解我會盡力去溝通從我們基層研究的學者"},{"start":244.745,"end":271.883,"text":"你不是壞人那我想你是好人好人不一定會做好的事所以其實你要有把握你有努力可是不一定能成功所以要有把握能掌握你能去補充疑慮的地方也要有把握能做好溝通這部分很重要今天很多委員都在關心這件事情是我知道所以我會努力去做我是有把握的但是"},{"start":272.563,"end":289.036,"text":"那結果當然取決於最後大家是不是信任我所以我覺得是沒問題啦因為今天委員溝通的事情我覺得原來負面的意圖其實都不存在所以我是很有信心大家會認同"},{"start":290.057,"end":314.978,"text":"期待您再來的處理狀況另外就是談及這個永續科研我想環境的永續的地位應該被優先看待那同樣是上個會期的質詢中有關於科學園區事業廢棄物再利用率的問題我們從行政院本會期的施政報告中有得知接近今年6月底"},{"start":315.618,"end":331.343,"text":"三個園區的試驗廢棄物的再利用率有高達9494%那上次本席在質詢這個題目的時候就是主委你有提到你們會將園區廠商一起協力一樣將這個試驗廢棄物的再利用率達到100%你上次有這樣誇下海口往這個目標邁進那目前不曉得努力了怎麼樣"},{"start":341.752,"end":355.442,"text":"我們持續在進行中科管理局已經跟台積電合作把相關的這個台積電的協力廠商集中在園區裡面做一個叫零費製造中心那由台積電來輔導這些廠商"},{"start":358.524,"end":376.664,"text":"﹗"},{"start":376.944,"end":376.964,"text":"好．"},{"start":399.008,"end":399.068,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":414.199,"end":414.339,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":431.86,"end":452.076,"text":"我們的成果其實是世界這個數一數二可是不過在設計上我想我們可能還沒有開拓自己的一片天下所以當然我們要肯定國科會有跨出這一大步那現在就是說我們針對是否如期可以營運那國科會不久前有表示說針對這個金創方案的執行方向包括國際合作的這個策略"},{"start":457.6,"end":457.76,"text":"主委．"},{"start":474.501,"end":501.369,"text":"報告委員,我們並沒有終止。需要調整。調整的原因是因為最近捷克也有選舉的事情。我們當初接任的時候也是新手。所以雙方的人員要互相認識再溝通經過一段時間。然後在捷克因為它是一個執政聯盟有很多的政黨是一起執政的。"},{"start":501.909,"end":523.25,"text":"所以他們對於這個我們設立的這種合作的機制也有不同的意見那不同意見並不是說我們要終止而是他們還在討論怎麼樣做是比較好那也跟我們在溝通當中那可能本來本來是9月要接牌的等等我們可能只是延到也許在年底年底之前一定會一定會完成好完成這個那除了捷克這個點以外"},{"start":526.693,"end":546.028,"text":"我們現在的策略我已經很明確定了我們半導體在國際合作策略這個策略就是利用我們半導體製造的優勢我們目前選定的這個區域包含日本包含美國還有在德國因為我們台積電的這個設廠所需要的這個人才是非常非常多"},{"start":546.708,"end":571.999,"text":"對那透過我們跟這些有好國家的學員的合作來培養我們台積電需要的人才這個人才其實在我們台灣不只在我們台灣在那個德國製造基地以及它的整個供應鏈在日本在美國都有所以透過國科會的這個機制對台積電的這個永續發展其實非常重要我們會加強這一點所以不只捷克我們在德國"},{"start":572.719,"end":573.24,"text":"林宜瑾 林宜瑾"},{"start":588.416,"end":614.611,"text":"好繼續加油那我想談到永續科研我們就不得不談到近期這個席捲而來的這個AI浪潮喔自然期間有登出一篇AI研究研究團隊有發現說早期的AI模型喔遇到不懂的問題它比較會迴避那升級過後的這個版本它會出現一些湖州答案的情形喔"},{"start":615.611,"end":633.585,"text":"他們分析了三大語言模型像說openAI的GPT或者Meta就是臉書的LLAMA還有就是Bloom那我想發現越來越大的語言模型回答的精準度當然確實有上升"},{"start":634.986,"end":652.976,"text":"但這些不精確的答案中其實錯誤的比例也有上升那有專家指出說可能是因為未給AI模型訓練的語料不見得完全正確以及模型本身也不見得可以篩掉這些資訊錯誤的假象這關係那對於這篇期刊所針對的模型當然已經是2004年"},{"start":659.58,"end":664.481,"text":"國科會開發的Tide模型有辦法迴避掉我們現在這些疑慮嗎?那我們要如何去定期檢查或者未給他大量的資料可是"},{"start":687.785,"end":687.925,"text":"主席"},{"start":717.705,"end":717.865,"text":"主委、主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:29:35 - 11:42:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"154990","gazette":{"lineno":815,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時29分）謝謝主席，有請吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：主委好。主委，你剛上任的時候曾表示說要拼三個月的有感政績，在上個會期您代表國科會初次來進行業務報告的時候，主委也曾跟本席具體描述你將優先推動的幾個面向，我記得很清楚，其中一個就是協助傳統產業投入高科技的應用，包括工具機如何使用的智慧化等等，另一個就是在賴總統宣示的健康台灣的願景之下，如何加速智慧醫療、高齡科技的醫療健康產業的科技化。我想在這裡跟主委驗收一下這幾個月來您努力的成績，也要請主委簡單說明一下，這幾個面向上，特別您宣示的這幾個面向，你覺得現在你有做出哪些有感的重大政策？"],["吳主任委員誠文：第一，我們在三個月之內已經規劃了一個智慧科技大南方產業生態系，一個新增的方案，也在行政院通過，也編列到我們的預算裡面，就是有編列在明年的預算裡面，希望能夠如期的啟動。在這個智慧大南方的方案裡面，我們會結合從嘉義以南到一直到屏東，坐落在沙崙的科學城，這個地方國科會本來就已經有投資，未來會再投資一個新的資料中心……"],["林委員宜瑾：所以這個智慧大南方，在類似這種科學城裡面，你具體要實施的就是所謂您剛剛講的這些……"],["吳主任委員誠文：會鏈結百工百業，就是除了我們已經有的科技產業之外，我們會把需求端，包含到服務業，以及傳統的製造業，我們都希望能協助他們可以做數位轉型跟智慧化，把我們的主權AI建起來，讓他們能夠受益，發展我們自主的AI應用的這些系統，我們會做這個事。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，OK。另外，今天非常多委員在關注的是有超過600個學者連署呼籲國科會要重新重視永續發展的跨域研究，剛剛也聽您做了一些的澄清跟解釋，我想科研要永續，不只是政策層面的宣示跟目標的訂定而已，國科會怎麼樣注重跟學界的溝通及建立互信，我想這個部分也是非常非常的重要。當然，您的澄清有表示要團結來面對跨域的難題，不過就誠如本席剛剛提到的，引領科學發展的國科會應該要加強跟各層面的有效溝通跟互信，你才能確保系統性政策的建置跟恰當的資源分配。所以我在這邊還是要提醒主委，你應該跟產、學、研各界要溝通清楚，會不會有資源重新的配置或政策定位能不能被外界理解等等的疑慮，這個部分你到底現在有沒有把握會做好溝通的工作？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會努力做好溝通，就是說……"],["林委員宜瑾：不是努力，有沒有把握？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有把握啦，因為我也不是壞人啊，哈哈！所以我想大家會諒解，我會盡力去溝通，從我們基層研究的學者，我會……"],["林委員宜瑾：不是，你不是壞人，我想你是好人，可是好人不一定會做好事，所以其實……"],["吳主任委員誠文：好人不會做壞……"],["林委員宜瑾：你要有把握，你有努力，可是不一定能成功，所以要有把握能掌握你能去補充疑慮的地方，也要有把握能做好溝通，這部分很重要，因為今天很多委員都在關心這件事情。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我知道，所以我會努力去做。我是有把握，但是結果當然取決於最後大家是不是信任我，所以我覺得是沒問題啦。"],["林委員宜瑾：你要有自信說你有把握……"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為今天今天委員溝通的事情，我覺得原來負面的那個意圖其實都不存在，所以我很有信心，大家會認同。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，期待您再來的處理狀況。另外，談及永續的科研，我想環境永續的地位應該被優先看待，同樣是上個會期的質詢中，有關於科學園區事業廢棄物再利用率的問題，我們從行政院本會期的施政報告中得知，截至今年6月底，三個園區的事業廢棄物再利用率高達94%，上次本席在質詢這個題目的時候，主委你有提到，你們會跟園區廠商一起協力將事業廢棄物的再利用率達到百分之百，你上次有這樣誇下海口，要往這個目標邁進，那不曉得目前努力得怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們持續在進行，中科管理局已經跟台積電合作，把台積電相關的協力廠商集中在園區裡面，做一個叫「零廢製造中心」，由台積電來輔導這些廠商，目標就是真的是要做到百分之百，當然，最後還會產生一些固態的廢棄物，那是無毒的固態廢棄物，就可以符合我們的法規標準運出園區，目標就是不要把污染的水、氣體送到外面去處理，而是在園區內就可以把它處理好。那我們在南科管理局，現在也正在建置相同的「零廢製造中心」，希望將來我們科學園區新的園區的發展，都要用同樣的標準去做事業廢棄物的再利用以及廢棄物的減少、減量。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，這部分很期待未來能達到百分百。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：為了使臺灣的科技發展能立足國際，剛剛有委員垂詢行政院提出的「晶創臺灣方案」，不只是本島的產創環境品質提升，我們也看到國科會選擇要到捷克布拉格打造臺灣第一座IC設計的海外訓練基地。在半導體產業裡面，臺灣不管在製造、代工方面的成果，其實是世界數一數二，不過在設計上，我想我們可能還沒有開拓自己的一片天下，所以當然我們要肯定國科會跨出這一大步。現在就是說針對是否可以如期營運，國科會不久前表示，針對晶創方案的執行方向，包括國際合作策略將重新進行規劃跟調整。所以我要請教主委，有關晶創前進基地沒有辦法如期來營運，目前到底要進行什麼樣的規劃跟調整？未來是否還會規劃更多這類的前進基地？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們並沒有終止，這個只是因為……"],["林委員宜瑾：你們說要調整嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：需要調整，調整的原因是因為最近捷克也有選舉的事情，那我們當初接任的時候也是新手，所以雙方的人員要經過一段時間互相認識再溝通；然後因為捷克政府是一個執政聯盟，有很多政黨一起執政，所以他們對於雙方的合作機制也有不同的意見。不同的意見並不是說我們要終止，而是他們還在討論怎麼樣做比較好，也跟我們在溝通當中，本來是9月要揭牌的，我們可能只是延到也許在年底，年底之前一定會完成這個計畫。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。那除了捷克這個點以外……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在的策略，我已經很明確的擬定我們半導體的國際合作策略，就是利用我們半導體製造的優勢。我們目前選定的區域包含日本、美國還有德國，因為台積電設廠所需要的人才非常非常多，我們要透過跟這些友好國家的學研合作來培養台積電需要的人才。這個人才其實不只在我們臺灣，在德國製造基地以及它的整個供應鏈，在日本、在美國都有，所以透過國科會的機制來培養人才，對台積電的永續發展其實非常重要。我們會加強這一點，不只捷克，我們在德國，甚至鄰近的波蘭，對德國廠的人才未來的發展是非常重要。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，就一步一步前進基地一直往外邁進就對了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：一步一步，重點就是我們支持學界跟他們那邊學界合作培養人才是非常的重要。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，繼續加油。我想談到永續科研，我們就不得不談到近期席捲而來的AI浪潮。自然期刊有登出一篇AI研究，研究團隊有發現，早期的AI模型遇到不懂的問題比較會迴避，但升級過後的版本會出現一些胡謅答案的情形。他們分析了三大語言模型，像OpenAI的GPT或者Meta，就是臉書的LLaMA，還有就是BLOOM，發現越來越大的語言模型，回答的精準度當然確實有上升，可是這些不精確的答案中，其實錯誤的比例也有上升。有專家指出，可能是因為餵給AI模型的訓練語料不見得完全正確，以及模型本身也不見得可以篩掉錯誤的資訊假象的關係。當然這篇期刊所針對的模型是2023年投稿時的AI模型，而最新銳的AI模型還不一定有相關的研究出爐，可是這是不是給我們世界一個警訊，就是AI的可靠性容我們質疑，那我們國科會開發的TAIDE模型有辦法迴避掉這些疑慮嗎？我們要如何去定期檢查或者餵給它大量的資料，可是要掌握這些資料的正確性？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，委員講得的確很重要，因為一般新的模型出來，特別是這種通用的模型，它的訓練資料不見得符合我們自己的需求，所以有時候我們問它一些問題，它不見得答得很好，的確是有這樣的現象，這是為什麼我們要發展主權AI的原因。我們用臺灣自己的資料訓練自己的模型，這個模型將來應用到我們自己的社會，它的準確度是可以提高的，而且我們把這個模型優化以後，也不要用原來通用的這種非常大型的模型，可以節省我們的能源，不要太浪費能源，將來我們自己主權AI的發展會朝這個方向走。謝謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，所以就是剛剛講的這些疑慮，未來我們自己開發的TAIDE模型一定要去避免掉……"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以避免掉，是。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員的質詢，吳主委請回座。","請洪申翰委員質詢，質詢時間5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:07:17","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:39:40+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154989","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","duration":437,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:32:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2ba77f6039be969bb610639eb4554d3b09d67042be656cc2aafa3316d3cb12b9b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.9040937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.05971875,"end":5.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.72971875,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.552218750000002,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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主委我想很多民眾以及本席以及委員都很關心這個外送平台的整併合併事件然後併購案件那我想先確認一下因為上午你也回答相關是說他們是在今年5月有送件是不是那5月30號就已經要求他們補件"},{"start":39.651,"end":66.409,"text":"那到目前為止都還沒有補件他有陸續補正但是還有一些不清楚的部分陸續補所以陸續補正陸續補但是一直我們通知補正就是他補來那我們再看一看有些需要補正我們陸續要求他補正那我想請教是我們公平會沒有把他需要補期的所有資料一次跟他講清楚還是說他們是慢慢拖就是今天送一個明天送一個"},{"start":66.969,"end":69.692,"text":"我們一般來講過去到現在法令規定我們這樣子的一個審理案件最長我們允許多久的補件期間"},{"start":81.189,"end":106.857,"text":"我們沒有這個限定補正的期間那補件完畢正式受理我們有這個審查的法定期間是審查法定時間所以到目前為止都還沒有算因為補件期間每個企業大小補件的情形不一致所以我們盡量讓公司有補件的機會這個文件越齊備我們的這個審查品質才能夠做審理"},{"start":108.297,"end":129.072,"text":"好那之前有提到是說會承諾要開公聽會或是相關來去了解我們不管是產業面本席之前也提過嘛就說這外送平台整併無最重要是我們要看到的是餐廳業者能不能因此而保障他的權益外送員能不能保障權益以及消費者三方面"},{"start":129.853,"end":157.449,"text":"那這個公聽會什麼時候會開始我們公聽會已經開了北中南東全部都開了那除了這個立法院委員也很關心有開公聽會委員有開委員的部分但是公平會本身公平會從6月開始就開始展開了北中南東那目前大家的一個消息跟訊息大家的這個政法意見都有都有原則上是譬如說"},{"start":159.291,"end":176.584,"text":"外送員的關切消費者的關切還有餐廳的關切這一部分意見都有了那所以是不是就我們大家的瞭解嘛最主要大家還是希望是說能夠保障這三方面的權益嘛外送平台在這中間當作是一個橋樑但最主要他是串聯"},{"start":177.845,"end":204.876,"text":"餐廳消費者以及外送員三方面的一個權益所以說是不是能夠要保障這三方面的權益不要因為說他們這樣的一個診病而有所受損這才是我們公平會的重點我們的審查重點是從這個競爭交易秩序的改變來看那當然您提到的外送員消費者平台的這些都是考量因素但是我們最終還是要看整個結合的經濟利益有沒有大於限制競爭的不利益"},{"start":206.377,"end":233.15,"text":"提高價格的能力會不會跟其他業者聯合的可能性還有消費者店家跟外送員跟他談判的能力是不是有什麼樣的改變會綜合評估所以你這樣講那不就是很明顯了嗎因為現在我們也看到過去有名的錢櫃好樂迪的一個合併到時候公平會還是不允許嘛是不是那錢櫃跟好樂迪他們合併他們最後加起來市佔率有多少"},{"start":233.649,"end":234.69,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":257.216,"end":278.795,"text":"我想你一定會這樣講啦但是本席要提醒啦其實最重點在於是國際社會裡面最近這一段時間有沒有去找說國際社會裡面其他國家有這個外送平台的一個診病的一個案例其他國家是有啦譬如說在韓國在其他國家有那我想每個國家的情況是"},{"start":279.535,"end":305.391,"text":"所以有些國家是有成功 有些國家是沒有成功嗎國家會要求做一些這個條件 負條件 情況是不一樣是 所以其實 主委本席的重點還是強調啊為什麼我們會點出來就是因為過去到現在我們已經很關心而更重要的是本席也認為你既然公平會現在要做這個審查你也講到了其實未來的方向其實還是希望是市場能夠健全的"},{"start":305.751,"end":306.071,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":323.971,"end":340.456,"text":"我們也都有徵詢他們的意見所以說未來你們在做審查的時候是不是幾個行政部門的部分也應該都要同時的納入而不是只是聽委員的聲音我們跨部會的意見都會一起呈現"},{"start":341.876,"end":361.65,"text":"讓委員去了解那本席也說啊本席現在跟幾個委員我們都共同希望能夠推動外送專法的一個訂立為什麼因為不管他合併與否啊外送專法其實才是真真正正能夠法制化並且讓很多我們有疑慮的地方"},{"start":362.19,"end":390.403,"text":"包含是說他即便是他們沒有合併但是兩家業者其實就算是這個市場的一個一二名也算是市佔率非常高如果兩家有默契想要去做調整不管是減少外送員的一個權益或是提高這個餐廳的一個支出那其實某種無形當中市場也都很容易被壟斷所以外送專法才是能夠真真正正保障並且訂立一些最基本的法制的一個門檻"},{"start":391.741,"end":393.657,"text":"主委針對這部分你有什麼想法"},{"start":394.329,"end":423.329,"text":"我想外送專法他可能涉及到非常多的面向那這個會應該是各方面去評估來決定是不是需要專法是啊但是本席現在要提醒的是說就公平會在審理這個合併案件的過程當中你們會有提出如果說未來真的有這個方向的話也有可能有提出一些限制的條件但限制的條件都不及一個法令的一個要求以及限制來著有保障"},{"start":424.304,"end":432.651,"text":"所以未來是不是本席以及我們幾個委員在提出所謂外送專法的時候也邀請公民會來表達意見主委這樣可以嗎沒有問題好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:32:23 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比方說因為少子化的關係你光學校"},{"start":187.856,"end":212.917,"text":"各國中小高中職啊數量非常龐大沒有錯所以我才會對列管有一點質疑就是為什麼列管只有九件這個列管可能是針對比方有人反應或者是特殊真的是完全是變成文資管的需要活化的這部分我們來改進啦真正的列管應該不只是對對對我的意思是我看到這個九件我嚇一跳欸閒置的一定是很多啦"},{"start":214.72,"end":231.541,"text":"副主委沒關係你可以講你可以直接補充沒問題我不一定要叫主委講沒問題好謝謝委員謝謝主席那主要是我們的清查大概是跟我們的品管公共工程品質品管一樣都是三級品管制的三級清查那第一個當然就是設施管理機關他自己要主動清查"},{"start":232.822,"end":256.51,"text":"那接下來就是那個主管機關要主動抽查那我們工程會這邊負責大概就是所謂的那個全國的本會的抽查那不過委員關心的這件案子我想這個我們本會會把它列入來去再進一步去了解這個案子目前的處理狀況因為台中這個花博還被監察院110年還是要檢查還是要審計處啦還要審計處糾正所以主委我同意你剛剛的講法"},{"start":257.35,"end":260.091,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":288.67,"end":300.143,"text":"這個公設室的主管機關或他上級主管機關稽查的請他們詳時再回報到工程委員這個我們中央一定要有列管為什麼因為這涉及到後面會有很多的問題第一個"},{"start":302.29,"end":303.391,"text":"蔡其昌"},{"start":318.323,"end":342.182,"text":"又跟中央不斷的要錢來蓋新的建築物那這個形成我們資源的浪費我們等一下我還要關注那個減碳的問題你看這個都是對減碳來講都是殺手也是對國家預算這個非常的浪費所以活化如果中央我們在補助跟他的活化績效兩者之間我們一定要取得一個勾肌"},{"start":343.343,"end":353.887,"text":"不然我們沒有人管我們列管這九項我要表示這地方政府幾乎都沒有蚊子管所以其實不是這樣主委剛剛你也補充了我也覺得嚇一跳我想你也嚇一跳所以我們應該對於列管"},{"start":356.957,"end":375.935,"text":"我督促你你現在還有多少是蚊子管你要趕快去做以後你要送上來你要申請其他的管轍我會告訴你說你先從你的列管的我列管然後你要去執行的這些蚊子管裡面哪一些是可以優先來使用"},{"start":376.215,"end":402.723,"text":"委員這個建議非常好應該這樣來做比較合理就該地方政府本身還有多少餘量可以使用我也跟主委報告我對這個老舊建築的改建或老舊建築的活化我很有興趣我只隨便因為時間有限你看那個日本這個都是廢棄學校改建的旅館你看到這個你會覺得這個可能不知道等級是五星級還是六星級這是學校這個都是學校改建的下一頁"},{"start":404.031,"end":430.632,"text":"這個都是學校去改建的旅館你不要去到很遠就隔壁的日本他就很多這種案例那我的意思就是說齁我長期在觀但我從來沒有我沒有特別印象說台灣哪一個活化很成功的案例然後讓台灣變成這個案例變成焦點或者變成典範可以讓其他縣市來觀摩考察學習"},{"start":432.343,"end":432.503,"text":"蔡其昌"},{"start":445.41,"end":461.48,"text":"行政院要求你們要列管這些嘛那到底我們的問題為什麼我們的活化上面都做的沒有比人家那麼好人家可以把它活化還賺錢對不對我們為什麼不行是涉及法規的問題還是地方政府怎麼樣所以我們棍棒蘿蔔"},{"start":463.101,"end":478.622,"text":"棍棒就是他做不好我就不給你我不應該再繼續放任你蚊子管一直蓋嘛那你做得好我應該想辦法來協助你補助你從經費到法規的這個鬆綁那到底哪一些法規讓我們的活化面臨到障礙"},{"start":479.841,"end":502.579,"text":"主委我覺得工程會都應該來盤點這些事情我們可以針對這些閒置設施的活化也單獨訂定相關的範本或指引好 這個我想我們在交通委員會還有很多時間這個是本席今天先起個頭希望未來我們還可以持續來追蹤所有的那特別像台中"},{"start":503.28,"end":519.675,"text":"像這個那麼大八十幾億的花博當時辦的時候林佳龍市長辦的時候是風風光光的大家也都很讚嘆可是事後這個市長換人了然後今天的花博的留下來長管變成什麼樣可怕的樣子"},{"start":520.416,"end":540.769,"text":"我覺得主委你除了到臺中看看這個捷運藍線之外,也應該去看看這個這個是指標性的,這個不是一個小小的學校廢校然後放在那裡,這不是,這個是曾經轟動一時的花博所以這個應該工程會要好好的去監督一下臺中市政府"},{"start":542.093,"end":570.043,"text":"好那接下來呢我那個還有一點點時間我想那個檢探的我看今天主委也特別在報告當中也去提出來就是那個淨零轉型落實公共建設的淨零轉型跟永續台灣那我看了一下大概我本來今天準備資料要來問但是時間的關係已經差不多了所以我留一點但是我有一個建議給主委你看你看這個報告裡面"},{"start":571.977,"end":600.944,"text":"我從我們的這個我們公共工程委員會永續發展目標志願檢視報告其實志願檢視報告我們要做哪一些項目目標在哪裡其實在你的簡報當中在你今天的簡報當中有出現可是這問題最大在哪裡主委問題最大在於幾乎每一個項目我們都沒有KPI啦就是說我們都說有我們現在正在做"},{"start":601.954,"end":629.071,"text":"他到底要做到哪裡叫做做2050淨零碳排是從蔡總統開始他就很明確壓了一個時間叫2050所以行政院下面開始把各個部會你們減碳的路徑然後2020要達到多什麼2030要達到什麼我們是有清楚的數據我隨便舉一個例子就好了你看你們的目標12"},{"start":631.101,"end":633.043,"text":"2020的目標政府機關綠色採購比率要達業務費預算之2.8到2030要達到3.5這個應該是你們自己列的那我檢視今天的標準裡面"},{"start":648.547,"end":673.397,"text":"我檢視今天的報告沒有一個沒有報告內容沒有清楚的去說明那2.8達到了沒今年已經2024了啊所以你目標是2020是要是要2.8那達到了沒那2030馬上就到了目標是3.5啊這個做到了沒所以我的意思是說寫這些我都沒有意見啊但是"},{"start":674.673,"end":679.959,"text":"你立法院要來監督公共工程委員會到底有沒有落實可能是參考環境部的"},{"start":681.547,"end":690.974,"text":"對,對,對,那沒關係,就是,雖然工程會,我們也自己做志願檢視報告嘛,志願檢視報告我們一定有列出目標啦,有目標我們就要有達成,要怎麼達成這個目標,我2025要到哪裡,2030要到哪裡,這樣我們才可以要求,主委你也可以要求我們工程會當年要怎麼去把這件事達成"},{"start":706.986,"end":731.763,"text":"所以對我們來說2050的金鈴碳牌那個不是早期我們道德訴求說我們要對地球比較好大家發揮良心發揮道德這不是這是人類的自救行動這也是民進黨執政底下我們的總統跟行政院定的目標所以應該變成一個迫切的危機它也是一個迫切有方向性有數字性的"},{"start":733.991,"end":734.271,"text":"蔡其昌委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:11:15 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11:23:52","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154987","gazette":{"lineno":488,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時11分）謝謝主席，請陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委早。主委，我看了一下工程會對於活化閒置公共設施的列管量，這幾年列管的數字，108年22件、109年17件，到最近好像都只有9件，列管只有9件，這個數字減少。你們把列管的件數減少，但現在活化狀況的好壞，不知道工程會有沒有去處理這個事情？我這樣舉例好了，以臺中市而言，花了八十幾億辦花博，花博所留下來的場館在不在現在列管的9件裡面？算嗎？你們的這個9件含不含臺中花博所留下來的場館？"],["黃處長順昌：報告委員，花博的部分沒有包括在這9件裡面。"],["蔡委員其昌：它已經不再列管了？"],["黃處長順昌：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我舉一些媒體所報導的案例，來，你看，這個當然不是最近的新聞，這是4月份的新聞，花博所留下來的，以花舞館來講，到現在還是蚊子館，就是說花博花了八十幾億，可是除了部分列為公園，還是做公園使用，這個本席沒話說，但我們蓋的那些場館，放到今天，我就沒有看到一個案子是成功的，就是工程會你們沒有列管，那沒有列管，它還是蚊子館，或者甚至它現在已經委外，但是成效很差，但這個中央、工程會好像也沒有列入什麼樣的考核機制，主委是這樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：閒置空間的列管是工程會被指派的項目之一。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：因為全國閒置的公共設施的確是有很大的問題，數量非常龐大，比方說因為少子化的關係，光是學校，各國中小、高中職，數量非常龐大。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒有錯，所以我才會對列管有一點質疑，就是為什麼列管的只有9件？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們再來檢討，這個列管可能是針對比方說有人反映或者是特殊的，真的是完全變成蚊子館的、需要活化的，這部分我們來改進。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK。"],["陳主任委員金德：真正列管的應該不只是這樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我的意思是我看到這個只有9件，我嚇一跳欸！"],["陳主任委員金德：閒置的一定是很多。"],["蔡委員其昌：副主委，沒關係，你可以直接補充沒問題，我不一定要叫主委講。"],["李副主任委員怡德：好，謝謝委員、謝謝主席。主要是我們的清查，大概是跟我們的品管、公共工程品質品管一樣，都是三級品管制，三級清查。第一個，當然就是設施管理機關自己要主動清查。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯。"],["李副主任委員怡德：接下來就是主管機關要主動抽查，我們工程會這邊負責的大概就是全國的抽查，不過委員關心的這件案子，本會會把它列入，再進一步去了解這個案子目前的處理狀況。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，因為臺中這個花博的展館110年還遭審計處糾正，主委，所以我同意你剛剛的講法，這個要怎麼做，我們沒辦法，因為它有的權力都在地方政府。"],["陳主任委員金德：比方說我們最近有請教育部統計，全國的中小學或高中職的閒置教室，每一間教室比方說1個禮拜只用5個小時以下的，請它去稽查，那個稽查的數量就很多，所以我們會主動要求這個公共設施的主管機關或它的上級主管機關，將稽查的結果再詳實回報工程會。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個我們中央一定要列管，為什麼？因為這涉及到後面很多的問題。第一個，活化，我知道你每一個地方政府有多少的空間是蚊子館，甚至是廢在那個地方，譬如學校廢掉之後，地方首長也不去認真思考，然後又跟中央不斷地要錢來蓋新的建築物，形成資源的浪費，等一下我還要關注減碳的問題，你看，這個對減碳來講都是殺手，對國家的預算也非常地浪費，所以中央在補助跟它的活化績效兩者之間，我們一定要取得勾稽，不然沒人管，我們列管的才9項，表示地方政府幾乎都沒有蚊子館，但其實不是這樣。主委，剛剛你也補充了，我嚇一跳，我想你也嚇一跳，所以對於列管的部分，你要去督促，現在還有多少是蚊子館，它要趕快去活化，以後如果有送上來申請其他館舍，你就要告訴它要先從列管的這些蚊子館裡面，去檢視哪一些是可以優先來使用的。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員這個建議非常好。"],["蔡委員其昌：應該這樣做才合理。"],["陳主任委員金德：就各該地方政府，它本身還有多少餘裕量可以使用。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我也跟主委報告，我對老舊建築的改建或老舊建築的活化很有興趣，我隨便提一下啦，因為時間有限。你看日本，這些都是廢棄學校改建成的旅館，看到這個你會覺得它的等級可能是五星級還是六星級，但這些都是學校改建成的旅館，你不用去到很遠，隔壁的日本就有很多這種案例，我的意思是我長期在關注，但我從來沒有特別的印象，就是臺灣有哪一個活化很成功的案例，然後讓這個案例變成焦點或者變成典範，可以讓其他縣市來觀摩、考察、學習，或許有，但是它不夠強大。"],["陳主任委員金德：有的是涉及法規。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以這些我們應該怎麼來調整，就是工程會應該對於……行政院要求你們要列管這些嘛，到底我們的問題在哪？為什麼我們在活化上面都做得沒有人家那麼好？人家可以把它活化還賺錢，對不對？我們為什麼不行？是涉及法規的問題，還是地方政府的問題？所以我們棍棒、蘿蔔要齊下，棍棒就是它做不好，我就不應該再繼續放任它蚊子館一直蓋；你做得好，我應該想辦法來協助你、補助你，從經費到法規的鬆綁，到底哪一些法規讓我們的活化面臨障礙？主委，我覺得工程會都應該來盤點這些事情。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們可以針對這些閒置設施的活化也單獨訂定相關的範本或指引。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我想我們在交通委員會還有很多時間，本席今天先起個頭，希望未來我們還可以持續來追蹤所有的個案，特別像臺中這個那麼大、八十幾億的花博，當時林佳龍市長辦的時候是風風光光的，大家也都很讚嘆，可是事後市長換人了，今天花博留下來的展館變成什麼可怕的樣子，我覺得主委除了到臺中看看捷運藍線之外，也應該去看看這個展館，這個是指標性的，這不是一個小小的展館，比如說學校廢校然後閒置在那裡，這不是，這個是曾經轟動一時的花博展館，所以這個工程會應該要好好地去監督一下臺中市政府。","接下來，還有一點點時間，我想減碳的部分，我看今天主委特別在報告當中也有提出，落實公共建設的淨零轉型跟永續臺灣。我看了一下大概，我本來今天有準備資料要問，但是時間已經差不多了，所以我留了一點時間，我有一個建議要給主委，你看這個報告，公共工程委員會永續發展目標自願檢視報告裡面，其實我們要做哪一些項目、目標在哪裡，在你今天的簡報當中有出現，可是這最大的問題在哪裡？主委，最大的問題在於幾乎每一個項目我們都沒有KPI，就是我們都說有、我們現在正在做，但到底要做到哪裡叫做有做？","2050淨零碳排是從蔡總統開始，他很明確地押了一個時間──2050，所以行政院下面開始把各部會減碳的路徑，2020要達到什麼、2030要達到什麼，有清楚的數據。我隨便舉一個例子就好，你看，你們的目標12，2020的目標是政府機關的綠色採購比率要達業務費預算之2.8%，到2030要達到3.5%，這個應該是你們自己列的嘛，我檢視了今天的報告內容，沒有清楚地說明2.8%達到了沒，今年已經2024了，你的目標是2020要到2.8%，那達到了沒？2030馬上就到了，目標是3.5%，這個做到了沒？我的意思是，寫這些我都沒有意見，但是立法院要來監督公共工程委員會到底有沒有落實……"],["陳主任委員金德：這個可能是參考環境部的目標。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒關係，就是屬於……"],["陳主任委員金德：因為淨零跟綠色採購……"],["蔡委員其昌：工程會也自己做了自願檢視報告，自願檢視報告一定有列出目標，有目標我們就要有要怎麼達成這個目標的KPI，就是2025要到哪裡、2030要到哪裡，這樣主委你也可以要求我們工程會的同仁要怎麼去把這件事情達成，對我們來說，2050的淨零碳排不是早期我們的道德訴求，說我們要對地球比較好，大家發揮良心、發揮道德，已經不是這樣，這是人類的自救行動，這也是在民進黨執政底下我們的總統跟行政院所訂的目標，所以它應該變成是一個迫切的危機，它也是有迫切性、有方向性、有數字性，是一個我們追求的方向啦！主委，我已經超過時間太久了，很不好意思，下一次我來質詢一定還是一樣問減碳的問題，我的意思是說，我們自我檢視到底裡面每一項我們今年的目標是什麼、明年的目標是什麼，我們要很清楚啦！這樣好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡其昌委員的質詢。","接下來邀請林國成委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:07:09","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:11:02+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154986","委員名稱":"邱若華","duration":429,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:03:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bbb56f2c9c4b7bdc77b6cd6776ddc26aed67042be656cc2aa85ef96e8213ea40c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.2790937499999995,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.813468750000002,"end":20.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.38221875,"end":25.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.76909375,"end":31.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.317218750000002,"end":36.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.65346875,"end":41.205968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4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11:11:02","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154986","gazette":{"lineno":452,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩主席請工程會陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["邱委員若華：主委好、主委早。主委，審計部針對112年中央政府總決算的審核報告已經在今年的7月29日公告，工程會有收到嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：應該有，但是不會簽到我這裡。"],["邱委員若華：OK，有關工程會需要加強改進的部分，主委您就是沒有看過？"],["陳主任委員金德：我大概沒有看到。"],["邱委員若華：沒關係，本席要針對審計部的報告就教主委幾個問題。政府採購法第十一條第一項規定，主管機關應設立採購資訊中心，統一蒐集共通性商情及同等品分類之資訊，並建立工程價格資料庫，以供各機關採購預算編列及底價訂定之參考。工程會在蒐集各機關公共工程達1,000萬以上標案之價格資料，在民國93年啟用公共工程價格資料庫，並提供各機關查詢全國各地工項、材料、勞務及機具的平均價格，目前的資料庫已經併入公共工程雲端系統。請問主委，價格資料庫主要提供的資訊是否為工料預算及決標價格？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個價格應該是我們有一個系統，就是讓招標的機關在抓預算的時候知道這個工程大概預算是多少，工程會有一個基本的價格跟估算系統，主要是提供給各辦理公共工程採購機關作為參考的依據，是有這樣的一個估價系統，也有單項的價格。"],["邱委員若華：是，審計部的報告指出，資料庫沒有提供決標價格對應之標比資訊及底價的價格。請問主委，缺乏標比資訊及底價金額的資料庫，有助於各機關來做參考嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：決標應該有，我們的政府電子採購網，決標的廠商、金額都是屬於應該公告的項目，這個都有公告，所以不會沒有蒐集。"],["邱委員若華：不會沒有蒐集？"],["陳主任委員金德：不會沒有蒐集，本來都要公告的。"],["邱委員若華：是，可是目前缺乏標比資訊及底價金額的資料。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個要不要……底價？"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["羅主任秘書天健：跟委員報告，審計部要求的是，因為我們有公告各個標案決標的單價及預算的單價，而它希望我們也更清楚地標示有關於底價和決標的標比，這個部分……"],["邱委員若華：沒關係，本席這邊建議你們要儘快完成資料庫的內容。"],["羅主任秘書天健：好，我們正在開發。"],["邱委員若華：OK，還有傳輸價格資料編碼正確率過低的問題，本席想就教主委，有關傳輸價格資料編碼正確率過低，通常它的流程是價格資料上傳，然後工項編碼解析，最後公布價格的資料。如果輸入編碼不正確，系統沒有辦法解析輸入的數據，導致資料庫沒有辦法存入價格資料庫，最後造成商情缺乏完整性，我們可以看到近一年的完整度只有一半。請問主委，你們要如何有效地提升編碼的正確性？"],["陳主任委員金德：這部分我請主秘來回答。"],["羅主任秘書天健：有關於編碼的正確性，因為公共工程的編碼會比較細，所以我們現在會朝向把各個編碼所要求的內涵再把它說明精確一點，希望各個機關能夠正確了解編碼的內容，然後提升它的正確率。"],["邱委員若華：工程會有沒有具體的規劃及日程？儘快是什麼時候？"],["羅主任秘書天健：我們講的KPI，抱歉，我們回去……"],["邱委員若華：你們有具體的……"],["羅主任秘書天健：具體的KPI……"],["邱委員若華：具體的說明。"],["曾處長鈞敏：只要像這種正確率低於40%的每個機關，我們每個月都會函文請他們要注意、要提高正確率，然後我們在年底的時候也會統一就正確率比較低的機關特別把它列出來，針對整個中央單位都會再提醒一次。"],["邱委員若華：工程會這邊會補傳價格資料庫，並且納入督導、考核的績效嗎？"],["曾處長鈞敏：也會，我們會納進去，會提供給我們的稽核小組及經建會做預算上面的控管。"],["邱委員若華：因為目前的正確率只有一半，有沒有計畫要提升正確率？"],["曾處長鈞敏：一直有，除了剛剛講的機關之間的函文提醒，我們也會有教育宣導、教育訓練的課程去提高每個機關找廠商在填的時候的正確率。"],["邱委員若華：OK，謝謝。這邊想要特別拜託主委，110年至今，5,000萬以上的公共建設案，曾經流標的件數占比均為70%以上，代表重大工程招標過程中有很多難處而導致流標，招標機關還需要修改招標相關規定之後再跑一次流程，導致時間延宕，影響工程進行。目前桃園規劃中的重大交通建設，在捷運部分有三鶯線延伸八德、桃園的捷運綠線、棕線；高速公路部分有八德交流道及中路交流道，本席希望工程會能夠積極協助以上的交通建設招標作業，降低流標的可能性，讓這些重大工程可以順利招標，請問主委可以承諾本席嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，這些都是桃園市相當重要的軌道工程及道路工程，金額也都很龐大，必要的時候，工程會會跟招標單位，也就是桃園市政府，就合約怎麼修改或者是不是要有物調等等來進一步協助，讓它能夠順利決標。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝主委。以上。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員質詢。","接下來邀請蔡其昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:09:29","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:32:14+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154985","委員名稱":"陳超明","duration":569,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:22:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bfac9bfb1424de77e10639eb4554d3b09d67042be656cc2aa41e763c40efa9c2a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.430343750000002,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.847843750000003,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.41284375,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.293468750000002,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.031593750000003,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.17909375,"end":24.567218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.83721875,"end":25.782218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.098468750000002,"end":30.777218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.43534375,"end":33.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.06784375,"end":35.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.85659375,"end":38.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.59034375,"end":40.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.17221875,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.54721875,"end":48.344093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.900968750000004,"end":50.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.26346875,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.680343750000006,"end":60.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.15221875,"end":63.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.37534375,"end":68.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.02846875,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.89721875000001,"end":75.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.18784375,"end":78.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.39409375000001,"end":81.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.55409375,"end":83.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.37221875,"end":89.11409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.60346875,"end":92.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.400343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我的頭很大就是說公務員遇到有涉法的案件移送檢調單位那至於他有罪無罪或有沒有違法就是由司法機關才認定結果是沒有違法那基本上公務員我們沒有這個調查的權利沒有辦法百分之百保證他違法才移送這個還是要去進行司法機關的調查"},{"start":281.271,"end":283.972,"text":"發言委員：陳超明發言委員：陳超明"},{"start":310.393,"end":311.333,"text":"那再來今天最熱門的話題"},{"start":337.953,"end":357.758,"text":"那個Uber Eats跟Panda Food 307億兩家都外商公司我現在發覺臺灣的官員都沒有兩隻腳很硬尤其高通的事件給我感觸非常深法環可以當作說用投資來轉變我等一下時間可能不夠"},{"start":359.144,"end":380.071,"text":"那你們確定要怎樣?兩家起來,外商以求以勤。李知偉,我不曉得你有沒有擔當會讓他們合併?佔了將近80%的市場。兩家外商大公司來,你受得了嗎?從高通裡面就看出你執政黨就永遠這樣,碰到外人的話?"},{"start":381.075,"end":403.851,"text":"就腳就軟下來,碰到臺灣的廠商就冰冰的砍殺我們不會有這種差別待遇,都是照法律來審查我跟您講,看到您覺得很遺憾,您覺得他來拜託的那個樣子我們心中很難過,你們都不覺得難過我跟委員保證,我做公務員到現在我一向都是依據法律來處理"},{"start":406.998,"end":428.369,"text":"阿你這個關於Uber Eats跟呼大便你會不會同意阿大家議論紛紛阿我是覺得不要有競爭才有進步不可能給他們聯合結合在一起那外商要吃你很容易不要講的時候板口的逆道德要賺台灣的錢什麼手段都可以使得出來"},{"start":429.81,"end":444.267,"text":"您看法怎麼樣?大家都期待看你公平會委員怎麼做我想公平會我們一定會針對這麼重大的結合案件依法審慎處理不會因為這個國人或者是外商有不同的處理"},{"start":445.199,"end":463.144,"text":"好不好,要有單單一點,他們兩個吃下來賺了80%馬上就調整價格,這個很快,台灣改變的形態,吃的形態也改變很快,慎重慎重,不要碰到外山就腳軟了,什麼都答應。還有時間嗎?"},{"start":467.663,"end":492.117,"text":"關於高通快要結束了我看你的報告我也不知道你到底在說什麼講得很多但是其實那個7億的賠償單位投資到處去挖角拿這個錢去蓋他們的大樓這叫做投資你到現在為止他的晶片所有的挖坑政府機關他也不便於抱怨"},{"start":493.442,"end":520.73,"text":"他的競爭對手就是蓮花科兩以外人不以家農7億工研院藝人的預算大概就是210億剛好跟這個金額差不多你們這樣前去的臺灣沒有一點利益就已經絕世了就媽媽夫婦不用了事過去我們都有那個跨部會在處理我們在這裡都照這個和解條件在做國科會他們的社會誰敢去得罪他"},{"start":522.234,"end":545.526,"text":"蓮花科是自立自強更生起來的,長到世界上沒有你把他抱起來給他,做成了10億的病,開工就好。這政府當時我不知道怎麼想,我都不能懷疑外商,都不能懷疑美國論,美國講什麼要跟著什麼。你炒人造成蓮花科競爭很大的質疑,契約。"},{"start":546.704,"end":547.925,"text":"請教這個和解條件來進行"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:22:45 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Eats跟foodpanda 307億的併購案，這兩家都是外商公司。我發覺臺灣官員都沒有腳，很硬，但高通事件讓我感觸非常深，罰鍰居然可以轉做投資？所以這件事你們要怎樣做？這兩家合併了，等於讓外商予取予求！李主委，不曉得你有沒有擔當讓他們合併？畢竟占了將近80%的市場。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想會不會……"],["陳委員超明：這是兩家外商大公司，你受得了嗎？從高通的案子就可以看出執政黨永遠就是這樣，碰到外人就腳軟，碰到臺灣廠商就拚命砍殺……"],["李主任委員鎂：不會，我們不會有這種差別待遇，都照法律規定來審查。"],["陳委員超明：慶云的事件就是這樣。我告訴你，我看到你就覺得很遺憾！尤其他來拜託我的那個樣子，讓我看了心中很難過，但你們都不覺得難過！"],["李主任委員鎂：我可以向委員保證，我當公務員到現在，一向都依據法律來處理。"],["陳委員超明：從頭到尾公平委員會在保證什麼我不曉得，至於Uber Eats跟foodpanda的合併案你會不會同意？大家對此議論紛紛，不過我覺得不要！有競爭才有進步，所以不能讓他們結合在一起。其實要處理外商很容易，他們也不要講得好似滿口的仁義道德，要賺臺灣的錢，什麼手段都使得出來！你的看法怎麼樣？大家都期待看公平會會怎麼做。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想我們公平會一定會針對這麼重大的結合案件，依法審慎處理，不會因為這個是國人或者是外商有不同的處理。"],["陳委員超明：好不好，要有擔當一點！他們兩個吃下來占了80%，馬上就調整價格，這個很快！臺灣改變了型態，吃的型態也改變很快，慎重、慎重！不要碰到外商就腳軟了，什麼都答應。"],["李主任委員鎂：不會。"],["陳委員超明：關於高通，我看你們的報告，我也不知道到底你們是怎麼說的，講了很多，但是其實那個區域的賠償單位投資，到處去挖角，拿這個錢去蓋他們的大樓，這叫做投資？到現在為止，聯發科──政府機關也不便於抱怨，它的競爭對手就是聯發科，寧與外人不與家奴，7億美金耶！工研院一年的預算大概就是210億，剛好跟這個金額差不多，拿我們錢去蓋的，臺灣也沒有一點利益，本案就已經結束了，就馬馬虎虎，敷衍了事過去！"],["李主任委員鎂：我們都有跨部會在處理，也有請專家，都是照這個和解條件去做。"],["陳委員超明：說到跨部會，經濟部、國科會只要說好，誰敢去得罪它？聯發科是自立自強、更生起來的，長到世界性，不然你撥7億去給他們，做出來的絕對會比Qualcomm更好！有時候我都不知道這個政府是怎麼想的，說不能懷疑外商，說不能懷疑美國論，美國講什麼就要跟著什麼，你們的作法造成聯發科競爭很大的質疑，7億美金、210億臺幣，工研院一年的預算210億，你把一個工研院一年的預算送去給高通，但臺灣人都沒有！連骨頭都沒有，連湯都沒得喝！好好檢討一下，好不好？謝謝。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們一直依照和解條件在進行。"],["主席：請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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有請國科會主委有請吳主委張委員好"},{"start":16.141,"end":40.637,"text":"總統府成立了國家氣候變遷對策委員會委員會討論設定的七大主軸裡面永續就包含了三項永續綠生活、綠色永續金融以及國土永續調適任性總統也在委員會上面去強調永續才是朝野共同的目標主委您也是國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員相信您一定了解永續的重要性"},{"start":41.557,"end":64.971,"text":"行政院在112年2月21日合訂的一個科學技術白皮書裡面也有提到以前瞻創新民主包容任性永續作為台灣邁向2035科技發展遠景透過科技力量來驅動國家整體的一個轉型所以發現就是永續其實在台灣是非常非常重要不管是在科技上面或是氣候變遷上面"},{"start":66.041,"end":85.958,"text":"但是就像剛剛前面有很多的委員都提到就是說﹖很多的學者有發起這個永續科研的聯署書提及國科會在自然科學及永續研究發展處有意要去調整那剛剛國科會主委您也做了非常多的說明所以我想要了解就是說因為原本在9月16日有去澄清說沒有這個更動的這個規劃"},{"start":89.803,"end":107.546,"text":"委員會議預計在一個月內會來召開學門會議所以我想要了解現在我們已經有一些初步的溝通了嗎有了解一些學者的想法有些掌握了嗎可不可以做個說明好請處長我先請處長好委員會委員好我們在一個月內溝通我們預計在10月1日10月2日10月9日分別跟這三個學門來進行溝通謝謝"},{"start":117.846,"end":143.388,"text":"我希望就是說如果我們溝通之後是希望可以積極的去傾聽我們這個召集人的一些想法來尊重畢竟永續是非常重要的一個課題那其實我也想想就是說國科會在回應學界的訴求其實有一直強調永續科研和今年會逐年增加這兩項作為但是因為學界代表還是會認為這樣的說法過於的簡單化和表面化無法有效的緩解他們的疑慮"},{"start":144.409,"end":150.728,"text":"所以雖然經費的增加非常重要但是僅靠補助並沒有辦法解決學術發展的一些核心問題"},{"start":152.625,"end":171.132,"text":"那我們就繼續講要補助這件事情根據自由時報的報導國科會回應瞭解社會的發展問題需要不同專業領域的對話來形成解決方案所以會長期的來支持支持永續防災與空間資訊等跨領域相關學門的研究那2023年這三個領域跨領域的學門經費是4.8億明年我們有規劃了5.2億也就是剛剛"},{"start":180.416,"end":195.548,"text":"主委一直強調的我們投入的資源是有逐年成長的但是我也發現了在國科會的補助研究計畫永續發展研究的領域這個研究計畫的通過率卻是逐年下降的從2016年我們還有56.6%到2024年只剩下30.1%"},{"start":203.038,"end":203.578,"text":"在2024年合定﹖"},{"start":225.851,"end":226.191,"text":"主席張雅琳"},{"start":243.083,"end":260.508,"text":"和並到其他部門才會讓這個核定率很難通過主委要不要澄清說明一下是是謝謝委員提起這個議題其實不是表面上這樣看的結果我們其實第一我們5.2億增加這個預算其實幅度相當高這是我們在"},{"start":261.488,"end":290.365,"text":"並列明年預算說早就編了不是因為這次事件我們早就編了那第二個計畫的核定數下降這個議題是因為我們逐年在編這個預算在核定計畫的時候是鼓勵多年期的研究是對學者是好的我們通過多年期的研究以後我們其實換算實質的通過率是到六成不是三成是到六成"},{"start":290.845,"end":316.886,"text":"總體經費"},{"start":317.125,"end":335.95,"text":"三個都有增加嗎?還是三個加總才是增加?三個都有增加。那請問一下就是說因為剛剛主委說你們有一些相關的連續性的計畫那是不是可以把這些相關的申請中的一些計畫跟核定的相關數據在一個月以內提供到我們辦公室讓我們來做參考好不好?"},{"start":337.831,"end":362.888,"text":"接下來就是說我想講到永續AI是一個非常關鍵的角色那2020年呢委員委託了資層聯合會計事務所來研究那結果顯示在他們進行的農業水能源和交通運輸等四個領域他們如果使用在AI那是可以解決很不錯的一個環境問題到2030年估計可以為全球經濟貢獻達"},{"start":364.989,"end":365.249,"text":"﹚張雅琳"},{"start":387.721,"end":403.832,"text":"謝謝委員我們明年有一個新增的計畫就是智慧科技大南方產業生態系我們就是因為過去我們比較注重在硬體的研發那未來我們在AI的領域在解決我們人類社會面臨的問題還有國內產業發展的問題在賴總統提到均衡台灣"},{"start":409.115,"end":435.403,"text":"的這樣的這個國政願景之下我們利用我們高科技產業已經非常好的這個技術來協助我們其他傳統的產業百光百業希望能夠共同發展所以我們在明年的預算裡面有適當的調整我們AI的預算除了增加我們的這個算力的建置之外我們也鼓勵在我們其他部會的這個預算的編列上面結合需求端應用端的這個產業"},{"start":436.503,"end":436.523,"text":"謝謝委員："},{"start":465.676,"end":491.673,"text":"再來就是說因為其實我剛剛有提到我們科學技術白皮書這部分我也蠻想跟主委來討論一下就是說我們日本其實鄰近的國家日本他們也有這個科學技術革新白皮書那他們開宗明義就已經提到了人工智慧帶來的科技創新變革那我們也有科學技術白皮書可是我們的科學技術白皮書在112年發定的時候其實通篇只有提到18次AI"},{"start":493.514,"end":519.077,"text":"這個比例跟我們現在講AI及國力似乎有點落差那根據科學技術基本法第10條有規定政府應該考量國家發展的方向社會需求情形以及區域均衡發展每4年訂定國家科學技術發展計畫作為擬定科學技術政策與推動科學技術研究發展之依據並經全國科學技術會議討論後由行政院核定"},{"start":519.998,"end":536.439,"text":"所以說新的科學技術白皮書是在全國技術會議上面的共識基礎上來盤點台灣當前的問題與挑戰那我想問一下這個110從主委的視角來看112年的版本是否跟著上我們科技發展的腳步呢?"},{"start":537.253,"end":561.26,"text":"最近因為AI的發展就是非常的快速所以的確我也覺得說我們也到了時間要去開始去構思怎麼樣去修訂這個科技的白皮書那我們今年會年底會全科會年底會召開12月我們年底會全國科技會議我們會詳盡討論這個議題然後接下來我們就會逐步來修訂這個白皮書"},{"start":566.36,"end":582.483,"text":"對,但是我想請教主委,就是說我們現在的法規是定4年才一次,可是我知道鄰近的國家是每年都有去修訂,那如果AI的發展是這麼的快速的話,我們是不是應該要來修法呢?因為4年實在是跟不上現在發展的腳步啊。"},{"start":583.971,"end":597.997,"text":"委員的建議很好我不知道這是不是牽涉到我們的法規有沒有限制這個報告委員那個全科會跟全國的科學技術法案計畫是定在科技基本法裡面對的"},{"start":599.598,"end":613.479,"text":"但是那個科技白皮書上面就有特別提到說我們兩年會滾動修正一次所以以現在台灣目前的制度我們是兩年來滾動的檢討修正一次但是我想我們因為我想臨近日本是一年我們有沒有考慮"},{"start":614.58,"end":614.92,"text":"最後一個問題就是說"},{"start":635.769,"end":661.214,"text":"因為剛剛我們大概一直在講AI啊科技的技術啊所以我想就是大家剛剛主委也有提到不能只有focus在技術我們還有其他的領域也需要去顧及所以在最近的一個天下未來城市呢他推出了一個AI20的專題報導其中這個中研院人社院的研究員蔡宗翰他就提到了當前台灣社會對於AI的認知似乎出現了偏差"},{"start":662.614,"end":674.109,"text":"AI 熱潮促使學生爭相報考志工系．可是卻傳出了人文科系．的申請報告率是掛0的那大家就說因為是AI大家都要報志工系"},{"start":676.772,"end":705.709,"text":"我自己之前也去在這個7月的時候呢有一個中研院舉行的一個院士會議我也去拜訪了孔祥仲院士我想他應該算是AI領域非常頂尖的一個翹楚他其實有跟我談到就是人文社會人才將會清晰的刻畫台灣文化和社會價值觀甚至可以想像台灣5年10年之後的社會樣貌我們應該重視人才培育這樣子人設的人才培育來將台灣打造成為一個AI民主文化中心"},{"start":706.389,"end":726.314,"text":"我認為AI的發展需要有一些框架需要一些倫理所以非常需要人文社會科學的那我就想直接請問我們剛剛有講會做一個人文的一個年底會有一個科學技術會議要召開我們有沒有邀請相關的人文產學跟學研的代表來出席呢"},{"start":729.984,"end":743.469,"text":"總統委員一定有因為我們現在其實全科會的議題裡面還包括了均衡社會創新經濟智慧科研跟淨零永續在所有的東西討論的時候我們都會請社會學者一起來參與"},{"start":745.17,"end":766.541,"text":"我可以再用一點點時間就好了可是我也發現我們在全國科技動態調查的研究人力統計我們在2017年還有10%的研發人力是在人設院可是我們到現在只剩下8.7%人數的確在科技的這個動態研究人力上面的確是下降的所以我認為我們應該鼓勵相關的人"},{"start":767.261,"end":769.122,"text":"請主委在一個月內提出相關的規劃讓我們來做一些參考好 謝謝委員謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢吳主委請回"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:16:25 - 11:29:30","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"154984","gazette":{"lineno":769,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時16分）謝謝主席，有請國科會主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：主委好。總統府成立了國家氣候變遷對策委員會，委員會討論設定的七大主軸裡面，永續就包含了3項：永續綠生活、綠色永續金融以及國土永續調適韌性。總統也在委員會上面強調永續才是朝野共同的目標，主委也是這個國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員，相信你一定了解永續的重要性。","行政院在112年2月21號核定的科學技術白皮書裡面也有提到以前瞻創新、民主包容、韌性永續作為臺灣邁向2035科技發展遠景，透過科技力量來驅動國家整體的轉型，所以發現永續在臺灣其實非常非常重要，不管是在科技上面或是氣候變遷上面。但就像剛剛前面有很多的委員都有提到，很多學者有發起永續科研的連署書，提及國科會自然科學及永續研究發展處有意去調整，剛剛國科會主委也做了非常多的說明，所以我想要了解，因為原本9月16號時有去澄清沒有更動的規劃，也預計在1個月內會來召開學門會議，所以我想要了解現在我們已經有一些初步溝通了嗎？有了解一些學者的想法、有一些掌握了嗎？可不可以做個說明？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，請處長，我先請處長。"],["賴處長明治：委員好，我們在一個月內溝通，預計在10月1號、10月2號、10月9號分別跟這3個學門來進行溝通，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我希望我們溝通之後，可以積極的去傾聽、尊重各個召集人的一些想法，畢竟永續是非常重要的一個課題。我也曾經想過國科會在回應學界的訴求，其實有一直強調永續科研和今年會逐年增加這兩項作為，但是因為學界代表還是認為這樣的說法過於的簡單化和表面化，無法有效的緩解他們的疑慮，雖然經費的增加非常重要，但是僅靠補助並沒有辦法解決學術發展的一些核心問題。","我們就繼續講到補助這件事情，根據自由時報的報導，國科會回應了解社會的發展問題，需要不同專業領域的對話來形成解決方案，所以會長期的來支持永續防災與空間資訊等跨領域相關學門的研究。2023年這3個跨領域的學門經費是4.8億，明年我們有規劃了5.2億，也就是剛剛主委一直強調的，我們投入的資源是有逐年成長的，但是我也發現了在國科會的補助研究計畫中永續發展研究的領域的研究計畫通過率，卻是逐年下降的，從2016年我們還有56.6%，到2024年只剩下30.1%，相較我們整體合計的整體核定通過率是46.5%，自然處總體平均也都有達到50.7%，所以其實我們在永續發展研究的核定率是相對低的。","再來，我們來看金額部分，2024年核定的金額也是創下2014年以來最低，只有9,200萬，所以剛剛雖然主委說整體經費是有提升的，但是我們可以看到經費在這個領域下面卻是往下掉的，核定率也是往下掉的，有學者說，是因為要合併到其他部門才會讓這個核定率很難通過，主委要不要澄清說明一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝委員提起這個議題，其實不是表面上這樣看的結果，第一，增加5.2億這個預算其實幅度相當高，我們在編列明年預算的時候早就編了，不是因為這次的事件，我們早就編了。"],["張委員雅琳：我理解，我理解，但是我的意思是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：第二個，這個計畫的核定數下降的議題，是因為我們逐年編訂這個預算、在核定計畫的時候是鼓勵多年期的研究，對學者是好的，我們通過多年期的研究以後，其實換算的實質通過率是到六成，不是三成，是到六成。再來關於新進的學者，我們都有保障他們的計畫，所以其實沒有委員顧慮的問題啦！我們在這個3個學門裡面並不會比其他的學門核定率還要低，並沒有。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以我想確認一下，聽起來主委說我們在永續、防災、空間資訊，如果是連續性的加起來，我們的總體經費3個都有增加嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：都有增加。"],["張委員雅琳：是3個加總才是增加？"],["吳主任委員誠文：都有增加。"],["張委員雅琳：3個都有增加嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["張委員雅琳：好。因為剛剛主委說你們有一些相關的、連續性的計畫，是不是可以把這些相關申請中的一些計畫跟核定的相關數據，在一個月以內提供到我們辦公室，讓我們來做參考，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，講到永續AI是一個非常關鍵的角色，2020年微軟委託了資誠聯合會計師事務所來研究，結果顯示，他們針對農業、水、能源和交通運輸等四個領域，如果可以很不錯地運用AI解決這個環境問題，到2030年估計可以為全球經濟貢獻達5.2兆美元，可以增加4.4%的GDP，可以增加3,000萬個工作機會，可以降低4%總溫室氣體排放量。","我想問一下，國科會在AI世代，看起來AI導入的效果會非常好，我們有沒有一些相關的規劃來幫臺灣實踐一個永續的未來，你可不可以具體的簡單說明？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，我們明年有一個新增的計畫，就是智慧科技大南方產業生態系，因為過去我們比較注重在硬體的研發，未來我們在AI的領域，在解決人類社會面臨的問題還有國內產業發展的問題，在賴總統提到均衡臺灣這樣的國政願景之下，我們利用高科技產業已經非常好的技術來協助我們其他傳統的產業，希望百工百業能夠共同發展，所以我們在明年的預算裡面有適當的調整AI的預算，除了增加算力的建置之外，我們也鼓勵其他部會在預算編列上面結合需求端、應用端的產業，跟我們的科技結合在一起，希望能夠發展出更多的……"],["張委員雅琳：了解，聽起來主委已經有一個詳細的規劃，這些規劃或是已經有些初步規劃，是不是也可以送到我們辦公室來做個參考？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，好，沒問題！"],["張委員雅琳：這個預算的話，我想剛剛吳沛憶委員也有呼籲，因為這對臺灣非常非常的重要，所以我也希望在野黨的立委可以儘快的讓這個預算送來委員會，讓我們可以儘快的審查。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：因為AI的競爭是分秒必爭的。","再來，我剛剛有提到我們的科學技術白皮書，這部分我也滿想跟主委來討論一下。我們鄰近的國家日本也有科學技術革新白皮書，他們開宗明義就已經提到了人工智慧帶來的科技創新變革，我們也有科學技術白皮書，可是我們的科學技術白皮書在112年研訂的時候，其實通篇只有提到18次AI，這個比例跟我們現在講AI即國力似乎有點落差。根據科學技術基本法第十條規定，政府應考量國家發展方向、社會需求情形及區域均衡發展，每四年訂定國家科學技術發展計畫，作為擬訂科學技術政策與推動科學技術研究發展之依據，並經全國科學技術會議討論後，由行政院核定。所以說，新的科學技術白皮書是在全國技術會議上的共識基礎上來盤點臺灣當前的問題與挑戰，我想問一下，從主委的視角來看，112年的版本是否跟得上我們科技發展的腳步呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：最近因為AI的發展非常的快速，所以的確我也覺得我們也到了時間要開始去構思怎麼樣修訂這個科技白皮書，我們今年年底全科會……"],["張委員雅琳：年底會召開？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們年底12月會有全國科技會議，我們會詳盡討論這個議題，然後接下來我們就會逐步來修訂這個白皮書。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是我想請教主委的就是，我們現在的法規是每四年才訂定一次，可是我知道鄰近的國家是每年都有去修訂，如果AI的發展是這麼的快速的話，我們是不是應該要來修法？因為四年實在是跟不上現在發展的腳步啊！主委您的看法呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員的建議很好，我不知道這是不是牽涉到我們的法規有沒有限制這個。"],["蔡處長妙慈：報告委員，全科會跟全國的科學技術發展計畫是在科技基本法裡面訂定的，但是科技白皮書上面就有特別提到我們兩年會滾動修正一次，所以以現在臺灣目前的制度，我們是兩年就滾動檢討修正一次。"],["張委員雅琳：因為鄰近的日本是一年，我們有沒有考慮用一年的方式？我覺得可以回去討論一下啦，我們是不是可以用一年，因為畢竟你看，去年才剛ChatGPT，現在整個都已經世界競爭的超級快速了，如果我們再用兩年，可能會有點跟不上，所以我希望主委可以回去研議一下，是不是可以以一年為基礎來去提升臺灣的競爭力。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["張委員雅琳：最後一個問題，剛剛我們一直在講AI、科技的技術，可是剛剛主委也有提到，不能只focus在技術，我們還有其他的領域也需要去顧及。在最近的天下未來城市有推出一個AI20的專題報導，其中中研院人社院的研究員蔡宗翰就提到了，當前臺灣社會對AI的認知似乎出現了偏差。AI熱潮促使學生爭相報考資工系，卻傳出人文科系申請入學報到率掛零。大家就說是因為AI，所以大家都要報資工系。","另外，之前在7月的時候有一個中研院舉行的院士會議，我也去拜訪了孔祥重院士，我想他應該算是AI領域非常頂尖的一個翹楚，他其實有跟我談到人文社會人才將會清晰的刻劃臺灣文化和社會價值觀，甚至可以想像臺灣五年、十年之後的社會樣貌，我們應該重視這類的人才培育，來將臺灣打造成為一個AI民主文化中心。我認為AI的發展需要有一些框架，需要一些倫理，所以非常需要人文社會科學，我就想直接請問，我們剛剛有講到年底會有一個科學技術會議要召開，我們有沒有邀請相關人文的產、學、研代表來出席呢？"],["蔡處長妙慈：報告委員，一定有，因為我們現在全科會的議題裡面還包括了均衡社會、創新經濟、智慧科研跟淨零永續，這所有的東西在討論的時候，我們都會請社會學者一起來參與。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我再占用一點點時間就好了。可是我也發現我們的全國科技動態調查研究人力統計的數據顯示，我們在2017年還有10%的研發人力是在人社院，可是我們到現在只剩下8.7%，人數在科技的研究人力上面的確是下降的，所以我認為我們應該鼓勵相關人文社會科學領域的人才來投入專業的一些科技研發的活動。是不是可以請主委在一個月內提出相關的規劃，讓我們來做一些參考？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢，吳主委請回。","再來請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:06:32","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:18:40+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154983","委員名稱":"黃健豪","duration":392,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:12:08+08:00","features":["ai-t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11:18:40","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154983","gazette":{"lineno":676,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時12分）謝謝主席，還是請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員你好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長，我想今天主要當然討論我們都更條例第六十五條的修正案，當然本席看了相關條文非常非常地支持，因為我想這對於921那段尷尬的時間興建的房子，讓他們參與都市更新是正面、有鼓勵的方向，但是本席還是要問一下這個問題，就是都市更新的獎勵容積的部分，因為所謂容獎當然有包含到公共的開放空間，剛剛稍早之前，我想也有委員提到這個問題，我想問一下，部長，對於像這種公共空間，尤其現階段其實問題已經叢生了，尤其是我的選區是北屯區，是全臺灣新成屋最多的地方，當然它的老舊社區也存在，所以它未來如果推動相關都市更新條例的時候，也會有很多案子出現，問題是這種公共開放空間，到底它的權責是屬於公部門還是屬於私部門？因為我想現在很多新的案子，現在的住宅這個問題就是說，它雖然產權上屬於私人財產，但它使用上變成要供公眾來使用，所以到底權責主管機關是私人還是公用？當然最核心問題還是牽涉到錢的問題，誰來管理、誰來保養，這個部長你怎麼看？"],["劉部長世芳：委員，您剛剛已經提到了，這個公共空間裡面的產權是屬於私人的話，就是表示是屬於私人的、是屬於社區的，但是怎麼樣讓它維持它是一個公共空間開放的部分，確實在管理上面會出現很多的挑戰跟困境，我想您長久服務在北屯，非常了解這個狀況，所以有些委員已經有提到說是否這個公共空間的使用的部分要納入？包括可能是我們的公寓大廈管理條例裡面專款專用，或者是未來建商要拿到建照或使照之前，就必須要把它納入管理的範圍，這些都是我們可以討論的部分，現行的處理方式，我是不是可以請署長跟委員做個簡單的報告？"],["黃委員健豪：好，請署長。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，公共開放空間的部分，因為在獎勵的項目裡面，的確大部分在地方政府的相關規定裡面都有去訂定，當然有些是放在都更的獎勵，有些是放在一般建築的容積獎勵項目，但是第二個就是說，照過去的地方政府都比較熟悉的一個做法，就是把它納到公寓大廈的管理維護基金，但是就會像剛剛所擔憂的……"],["黃委員健豪：它會進到大水庫裡面啊！"],["吳署長欣修：它可能在使用的順序上，對於管委會來講，它並不是優先項目，所以這個部分需不需要來做專款專用的一個規定，這個部分我們就會找地方政府再來討論。"],["黃委員健豪：署長、部長，我的建議是這樣，因為都更條例的容獎出來，它的機制，講白了，這件事情出來之後，最大的獲利者不一定是市民，最大獲利者可能是協助都更的建商，所以我想在未來相關條例裡面，應該讓建商有它的責任跟義務，現在的現行法令當然對於公寓大廈管理條例，第一個階段，管委會成立前，它要撥款到管委會裡面去，而未來的部分我建議是都更獎勵，建商從這邊獲得的利潤應該要分配到所謂的基金裡面，讓它專款專用到後續的維護管理，讓這個容積獎勵能夠真正地發揮所謂的公平性跟公益性，不要說我房子蓋完賣給你之後，全部都管委會的事情，那管委會跟周邊社區如果不愉快的話，也跟建商沒關係，但問題是建商你把錢賺走了，今天它能夠獲得容積獎勵、它能夠蓋更多的房子、它能夠把容積蓋得更高、賺更多錢，結果後續沒有它的事情，所以我想從公平原則來講的話，是不是可以讓相關的精神放進所謂的專款專用的條款裡面，甚至放進公寓大廈管理條例裡面？部長。"],["吳署長欣修：我們會來找地方政府再來討論，就希望很明確地要求他們把它定到相關的規定裡面去處理，當然如果有需要在公寓大廈管理條例裡面去落實，這個我們也會來處理。"],["黃委員健豪：另外，提到容獎的部分，過去針對停車場的部分，我想部長應該很清楚，現在要做都市更新的地方都是所謂的老舊市區嘛！原則上都這樣吧？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["黃委員健豪：老舊市區面臨最現實的就是停車場、停車位不足，現有的這些建築物裡面，所以過去你們是把它放在建築規則裡面，讓地方政府自己去訂定相關的容積獎勵、訂定相關的規範，但是如果今天第六十五條通過之後，我想很多的老舊建物也能夠納入都更之後，停車場的部分能不能把它提升相關的位階，它的容積獎勵能不能放入停車場？不要說又讓地方政府去處理，因為現階段來講，很多地方政府到後面，因為管理的問題，它就不處理啦！就不做了，停車場的部分。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為現行建管的規定，各縣市大概都差不多，尤其會透過交評的部分來做處理，所以通常至少都一戶一車位這樣的方式來訂立，有的甚至會訂得更高，那這些其實都已經有在落實當中。"],["黃委員健豪：一戶一車位當然如果是很單純的住宅區沒問題，但是問題現在我們講到的，今天要加入都更的這些房子，它很多地方是屬於現有的，它就是舊市區，它就是既有很完善的生活機能區，但它的停車位就不足嘛！所以才會有什麼……在隔壁有交通委員會，才會一直討論什麼行人地獄，然後沒有停車空間等等的問題，今天我們要在舊市區去解決，好不容易能夠做都更了，新的房子蓋起來了，但是我還是沒有地方停車，所以我是建議是不是能夠把相關停車的考量放進都更的評選裡面，因為當然現階段有，現階段就是把它交給地方政府去評選，但是我是希望能夠提升它的位階，變成未來在做都更的時候，你蓋新的大樓、新的建物，尤其在舊市區裡面、在既有的商業區裡面，你蓋新大樓，你的停車位應該要釋出來吧！這個也放進它的容積獎勵的考評裡面吧？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，通常這個就是我們會再找地方政府討論，因為有一些的確會變成說未來是作為獎勵，也就是說我獎勵你蓋更多的停車位去出租或什麼，未來這個部分地方政府就要視他們在地的情形，看它是不是要納到都更的獎勵項目，或者是說它會額外的獎勵或是額外的要求，這個部分我們會……"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，我們時間到了，我們後續再跟您討論。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝部長、謝謝署長，主席謝謝。"],["主席：我們請徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:07:14","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:12:01+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154982","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","duration":434,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:04:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b3d7bb2d682a8d4b9e2c265252fbe14a8d67042be656cc2aa5c7ab8ae07d34f6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.283468750000001,"end":7.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.69221875,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.442843750000002,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.57721875,"end":15.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.859718750000003,"end":43.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.69596875,"end":38.657843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.471593750000004,"end":43.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.13784375,"end":92.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.344093750000006,"end":49.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.43409375,"end":166.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.95159375,"end":105.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.59221875,"end":109.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.81096875,"end":114.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.77721875,"end":138.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.48159375,"end":193.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.58721875,"end":226.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.80159375000002,"end":228.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.42159375000003,"end":242.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.24346875,"end":233.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.280343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署長好剛才我看部長跟李昆城委員一搭一唱就是針對就是我們現在就是退回總預算的部分部長也擔任過很久的立法委員請問一下現在退回總預算請問一下我們有沒有刪除預算現在的委員現在是退回程序委員會有沒有刪除而不是退回那個行政院所以不一樣這有沒有刪除"},{"start":45.322,"end":70.482,"text":"繼然沒有討論不可能做任何的其他的決議。沒錯,所以沒有刪除。而且呢,我們退回是希望針對這個原名補償條例的法定預算的部分。因為立法院不能做增加預算的決議嘛。我想部長當委員那麼久應該非常清楚。然後我覺得李昆城委員也算是他腦筋是清楚的。他特別問了部長說哪些新計劃會受到影響。"},{"start":75.006,"end":92.442,"text":"部長也應該非常清楚即使預算沒有通過凡是延續性的預算它仍然可以照這個年度明年度可以照上一個年度來執行部長不會連這件事情都搞不清楚吧謝謝委員指教"},{"start":93.776,"end":104.801,"text":"所以我講的沒有錯沒有 我想跟委員報告一下如果要延續的部分的話是人事費跟延續的計劃跟業務費對 所以所有延續性的而非新興的計劃實際上但是延續計劃如果有增加預算規模的話也是必須要經過大院同意才可以有增加的部分所以只要是延續性的其實是不受影響我想請署長也一起來"},{"start":122.108,"end":122.328,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":139.059,"end":148.384,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":167.535,"end":176.161,"text":"我們擔心的是違老的部分恐怕它就越來越沒有用因所以我要請問部長還有請教這個署長針對有關違老的部分我記得我在上個會期也針對這個問題有詢問過我們違老條例的這個落日條款還有這個容積獎勵的這個它越來越低我們有沒有一些研議跟補正檢討的一個措施"},{"start":193.955,"end":222.835,"text":"感謝委員大概分兩個部分因為之前所謂的10成獎勵其實它相對來講比較沒有要付出其他的這樣的一個公益措施所以當時的10成獎勵就一直討論不應該再延長但是我們相對是鼓勵危老的規模要擴大所以是用規模獎勵來代替逐年來代替這個10成獎勵這是第一個當然第二個就是說危老其實它當時設定了10年的這個條款"},{"start":223.615,"end":224.776,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":253.675,"end":253.715,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":274.787,"end":279.23,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":292.998,"end":321.167,"text":"這是我們目前最大的功能跟最大的任務那災害救護的部分呢後續一定會有收容安置跟撤離這幾項過去包括我們的921大地震等等這些後續的這個可是原來宗教都在做啦其實宗教做的比我們比我們政府好太多啦可是我們更需要仰賴他們來幫忙以及提供意見所以他們要做什麼宗教組織要做什麼我到底誤解什麼我跟你講你說你說不放但要放什麼東西啊你講清楚啊"},{"start":321.707,"end":322.307,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":339.953,"end":359.404,"text":"在宗教因為宗教在我們的這個社區裡面太多了嘛好那所以宗教只會放醫療性的物資還有糧食性的物資不會放任何軍火性的物資可不可以承諾我不清楚委員所指的是什麼在我們的任務裡面就是維持我們的收容安置跟撤離的功德他必須要能夠他如果是開放空間的話所用的其他的那個法源基礎並不在內政部的管轄範圍內"},{"start":368.709,"end":369.069,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":388.18,"end":392.464,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":407.861,"end":432.024,"text":"你還是聽不懂我講的話你趕快回去想想看喔不要太緊張然後要跟我沒有緊張我想要回應委員的問題我們家旁邊的宮廟會放些什麼東西會做些什麼事情好不好是這個不在我們的法律管轄範圍內的這個一定要讓民心能夠穩定否則的話防任做不到反而會讓民心不穩謝謝委員的指教"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:04:47 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11:12:01","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154982","gazette":{"lineno":628,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時4分）謝謝主席，我請部長，還有國土署吳署長。"],["主席：請部長跟署長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員你好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好、署長好。剛才我看部長跟李坤城委員一搭一唱，針對現在退回總預算的部分，部長也擔任過很久的立法委員，請問現在退回總預算，我們有沒有刪除預算？"],["劉部長世芳：現在是退回程序委員會，而不是退回行政院，所以不一樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以有沒有刪除？"],["劉部長世芳：既然沒有討論，不可能做任何其他的決議。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒錯，所以沒有刪除，而且我們退回是希望針對原民補償條例法定預算的部分，因為立法院不能做增加預算的決議，我想部長當委員那麼久應該非常清楚，我覺得李坤城委員也算是腦筋清楚的，他特別問了部長，哪些新興計畫會受到影響？部長也應該非常清楚，即使預算沒有通過，凡是延續性的預算，明年度仍然可以照上一個年度來執行，部長不會連這件事情都搞不清楚吧！"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員指教。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以我講得沒有錯。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我想跟委員報告一下，如果延續的部分是人事費和延續的計畫及業務費……"],["王委員鴻薇：所有延續性的，而非新興的計畫，事實上不受任何……"],["劉部長世芳：但是如果延續性計畫有增加預算規模的話，也是必須要經過大院同意才可以。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒錯，有增加的部分，所以只要是延續性的，其實是不受影響。接下來，我想請署長也一起來，我們今天要討論的是都更條例，也非常感謝包含行政院，還有很多委員的支持，但是現在危老重建的部分面臨一個問題，因為危老重建事實上是有落日條款，也就是隨著時間越來越久，危老的容積獎勵會越來越低，也會使得危老的誘因越來越低。比如在明年5月我們就會碰到容積獎勵從原來的10%一路降到只剩下2%，這中間就差了五倍，所以我們擔心危老的部分恐怕會越來越沒有誘因，我要請問部長，還有請教署長，針對有關危老的部分，我記得我在上個會期也有針對這個問題詢問過，危老條例的落日條款以及容積獎勵越來越低，你們有沒有一些研議或補正檢討的措施？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，大概分兩個部分，因為之前所謂的時程獎勵，其實相對來講比較沒有要付出其他的公益措施，所以當時的時程獎勵就一直討論不應該再延長，但是我們相對是鼓勵危老的規模要擴大，所以是用規模獎勵來逐年代替時程獎勵，這是第一個。第二個，危老當時設定了10年的落日條款，但是其實外界的反映都很……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以落日你們不會改？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，因為落日這件事情，整個危老要結束的話，其實大家反映的意見也很多，也期待這樣的危老能夠推動，所以我們內部已經在開始修法。"],["王委員鴻薇：我希望在危老的部分，沒有錯，大家也很怕危老，因為大家都小小、小小的，可是問題是都更事實上耗日費時，這個部分還是希望你們能夠檢討。","因為我只剩下1分鐘時間，請問部長，剛才也有很多委員在關心，你說宮廟未來不會放彈藥軍火，這次的全民防衛韌性委員會找了非常多的宗教團體，包含教會、宗廟，請問未來我們宗教組織的功能是什麼？不放軍火，要放什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您還是誤解了，內政部所主管的部分是災害救護，這是我們目前最大的功能和最大的任務，災害救護的部分後續一定會有收容安置和撤離這幾項，過去包括我們的921大地震等等這些後續的很多災民的部分，如果……"],["王委員鴻薇：可是原來宗教都在做啦！其實宗教做得比我們政府好太多啦！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們更需要仰賴他們來幫忙以及提供意見。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以他們要做什麼？宗教組織要做什麼？我到底誤解什麼？我跟你講，你說不放彈藥，放什麼東西啊？你講清楚啊！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：我誤解什麼？你講清楚啊！"],["劉部長世芳：對不起，有關於物資的部分的話，是物資組在處理的，但是……"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼樣的物資呢？告訴我們什麼樣的物資？"],["劉部長世芳：在大規模震災的時候，一定會有物資中斷、交通中斷的問題，所以交通組跟經濟部的或是農業部就要負責，如果有大規模的狀況……"],["王委員鴻薇：你可不可以承諾在宗教……因為宗教在我們的社區裡面太多了嘛！好，所以宗教只會放醫療性的物資還有糧食性的物資，不會放任何軍火性的物資，可不可以承諾？"],["劉部長世芳：我不清楚委員所指的是什麼，在我們的任務裡面，就是維持我們的收容安置跟撤離的功能……"],["王委員鴻薇：是我不清楚還你不清楚？你講清楚啊！"],["劉部長世芳：它必須要能夠……它如果是開放空間的話，所用的其他法源基礎並不在內政部的管轄範圍內。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是你是宗教組織的主管機關，所以……"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以我講過啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我會要求說我們只能放醫療性的OK，糧食性的OK，但是我們拒絕任何軍火性的，你這種話都不能講嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：委員所講的部分，我覺得我們從善如流。"],["王委員鴻薇：好不好？我如果是你，你應該承諾是這樣，軍火性的物資不要放在宗教裡面，好不好？宗教組織裡面，可不可以？"],["劉部長世芳：米糧或者是其他的收容安置的部分，我們當然是完全同意啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛才講了，講那麼清楚，我說醫療、糧食性的OK，但是軍火性的、彈藥性的，你就都不要。你還是聽不懂我講的話，你趕快回去想想看，不要太緊張，然後要跟……"],["劉部長世芳：我沒有緊張，我想要回應委員的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為現在很多老百姓關心我們家旁邊的宮廟會放些什麼東西、會做些什麼事情，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是，這個不在我們的法律管轄範圍內的話……"],["王委員鴻薇：好不好？這個一定要讓民心能夠穩定……"],["劉部長世芳：我一定會堅持。"],["王委員鴻薇：否則的話防韌做不到，反而會讓民心不穩。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的指教。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["主席：我們請黃健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:05:37","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:04:40+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154981","委員名稱":"李坤城","duration":337,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:59:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b2b3a03a85804d361e2c265252fbe14a8d67042be656cc2aa0daa424a73b7f4fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.599718750000001,"end":7.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.78409375,"end":14.931593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.52659375,"end":26.035343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.404093750000001,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.707843750000002,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.22096875,"end":33.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.95409375,"end":33.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.79784375,"end":61.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.55159375,"end":43.737218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.42659375,"end":63.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.41784375,"end":76.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.70721875000001,"end":74.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.10784375,"end":76.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.18784375,"end":78.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.29721875,"end":118.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.70034375,"end":120.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.87284375,"end":124.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.623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更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":121.199,"end":144.736,"text":"你現在講的是前瞻基礎建設計畫可是我們還有其他的計畫兩個是分開來的那現在除了你講那些之外那還有一個就是說明年的這個春節本來我們要給這個村里長1.5個月的這個年終慰問金那現在如果預算卡住了明年的1月因為明年1月就過年了嘛那這1.5個月的這個年終慰問金發了出來嗎"},{"start":148.062,"end":154.924,"text":"是有點卡卡的,但是我們會盡量把它那個可以趕快通過。黨主任你怎麼去發咧?這是有點困難,但是我們有詢問過我們的會計總處跟主計單位,他們會想辦法讓它可以發放。但是確實是比較不容易,就是有點卡卡的。有些相關的施行細則呢,我們會再跟主計總處來申請,希望它可以趕快可以撥補。"},{"start":171.988,"end":172.368,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":189.574,"end":203.817,"text":"新增七條之一村里長事務補助費補助條例有村里長任滿六屆年滿65歲以上給予慰問金及表揚、額度及辦法由內政部訂定。請問部長現在有關於資深里長年滿65歲還有任滿六屆表揚的辦法跟金額有確定了嗎?"},{"start":211.559,"end":213.18,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":241.374,"end":242.735,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具"},{"start":260.012,"end":262.595,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員李彥秀等19人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":280.064,"end":281.806,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":294.958,"end":317.681,"text":"希望能夠明年1月1號就施行所以現在時間也很趕啊是很趕啊就是我們已經邀集了要收集這些資料了但是如果現在是卡到這個部分的話會有困擾然後您特別提到說如果地方財政有困難的話呢是建議要負擔這個未落金的額度但是這個額度到底多少現在還要再考量"},{"start":318.341,"end":318.481,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:59:03 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11:04:40","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154981","gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時59分）謝謝主席，我們請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：李委員，您好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，辛苦了。"],["劉部長世芳：哪裡。"],["李委員坤城：先請教一下部長，原本是要審查總預算，但因為總預算被擋住了，現在也沒有總預算可以審查，先請教一下部長，如果明年度的總預算沒辦法通過的話，內政部有哪一些新興計畫會被擋住、沒辦法執行？"],["劉部長世芳：報告李委員，我們現在最大的困擾應該就是行政院要撥補給我們的住宅基金裡面對於各地租金補助的部分，原先我們申請的部分是200億，如果200億沒有辦法在總預算裡面討論的話，我們住宅基金未來要挹注給其他縣市政府做租金補助或包租代管的部分，就會受到比較大的影響。"],["李委員坤城：這是屬於原定的計畫，還是屬於新興的計畫？"],["劉部長世芳：它雖然是延續性的計畫，但是我們跟行政院申請200億要撥補過來，如果這個地方沒有審查通過的話，我們就不能跟行政院申請，這是一個最大的部分。"],["李委員坤城：200億住宅補貼、租金補貼？"],["劉部長世芳：對。另外一個部分，大概就是給縣市地方政府的新興計畫，委員當過議員非常清楚，第一個，生活圈道路，還有現在為了要改善行人道路的部分，很多都是新興的，為什麼呢？因為它必須要經過一個審查程序，現在各地方報上來的預算非常多，但是如果我們並沒有審查通過的話，就沒有辦法撥補給地方縣市政府，所以我們也陸陸續續通知一些地方縣市政府，現在先不要送申請給我們，等總預算審查通過的時候，我們才會給他們。所以這幾項大概……"],["李委員坤城：有關行人交通安全4年400億呢？"],["劉部長世芳：你現在講的是前瞻基礎建設計畫，可是我們還有其他的計畫，兩個是分開來的。"],["李委員坤城：現在除了你講的那些之外，還有一個明年春節本來要給村里長1.5個月的年終慰問金，現在如果預算卡住了，明年1月就過年了，1.5個月的年終慰問金發的出來嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是有點卡卡的，但是我們會儘量讓它可以趕快通過，然後讓……"],["李委員坤城：卡住了你怎麼去發呢？"],["劉部長世芳：這是有點困難，但是我們有詢問過我們的會計總處和主計單位，他們會想辦法讓它可以發放，但是確實是比較不容易，就是有點卡卡的，有些相關的施行細則，我們會再跟主計總處來申請，希望它可以趕快撥補。"],["李委員坤城：因為這個東西不像公務員調薪3%。"],["劉部長世芳：不是，它不是。"],["李委員坤城：2月或3月都可以。"],["劉部長世芳：它和公務員調薪不一樣。"],["李委員坤城：這是1.5個月的年終慰問金，過了2月、3月之後其實就沒有那個意思了，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：就沒有在年終的時候慰問的效果。"],["李委員坤城：再請教部長，我們的村里長事務補助費補助條例還有新增第七條之一，村（里）長任滿六屆年滿65歲以上給予慰勞金及表揚，額度及辦法由內政部訂定，請問部長，現在有關於資深里長年滿65歲，還有任滿六屆的表揚辦法和金額，現在有確定了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：已經有確定了。"],["李委員坤城：大概是怎樣？"],["劉部長世芳：我們現在初步調查符合這個條件的大概有1,068位，因為我們希望在今年12月中旬以前發布辦法，所以我們仍然在爭取當中，希望能夠趕快通過，因為地方建議的金額多數為30萬元以下，同時也可能要請地方政府能夠編列相關的預算。"],["李委員坤城：大概30萬左右，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：以下。"],["李委員坤城：30萬以下，我建議這筆預算還是由中央來出，因為其實現在……"],["劉部長世芳：我們沒錢要怎麼出？我現在這樣講就是假慷慨。"],["李委員坤城：當初1.5個月的慰問金也是本來要由縣市政府出，後來委員一有壓力之後，就變成中央來出了，而且現在縣市政府都在審查總預算，除非追加預算，不然他們也沒有這筆預算，我建議如果只有1,068位，這筆預算30萬以下還是由中央來出，我是這樣建議。"],["劉部長世芳：可是有些地方縣市政府比較有錢。"],["李委員坤城：新北市也沒有錢。"],["劉部長世芳：新北市沒有錢？"],["李委員坤城：新北市也沒有錢啦。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有啦，你們算是二級的補助單位，我想是這樣子，委員的誠意我們非常清楚，要幫地方的村里長爭取，但是我們在今年發布辦法之前希望明年1月1日就能夠施行。"],["李委員坤城：現在時間也很趕。"],["劉部長世芳：是很趕，我們已經蒐集這些資料了，但是如果現在卡到這個部分的話會有困擾，然後你特別提到如果地方財政有困難的話，建議要負擔慰勞金的額度，但是這個額度到底多少，現在還要再考量。"],["李委員坤城：因為村里長都在問，一個是年終慰問金，一個是資深里長表揚的金額和辦法，我希望能夠趕快出來。"],["劉部長世芳：我們儘量來爭取，也希望大院能夠支持。"],["李委員坤城：我們一定支持的，可是這個辦法要趕快出來，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：好，今年12月，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝部長。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:08:03","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:58:53+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154980","委員名稱":"張智倫","duration":483,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:50:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bbdac9fc982d1f3d1e2c265252fbe14a8d67042be656cc2aadf376f3bcf18f1735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.0515937500000003,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.374718750000003,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.31971875,"end":15.336593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.336593750000002,"end":20.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.09971875,"end":24.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.297218750000003,"end":69.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.02909375,"end":39.619718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.407218750000006,"end":50.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.48846875000001,"end":104.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.84159375,"end":124.06221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.06659375000001,"end":123.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.53909375,"end":168.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.56221875,"end":165.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.47721875000002,"end":180.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.04909375,"end":185.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.96409375000002,"end":220.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.85409375,"end":187.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.08159375000002,"end":236.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.16096875000002,"end":221.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.55971875,"end":250.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.05721875,"end":237.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.97596875000002,"end":248.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.89471875,"end":274.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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我們並沒有編預算 我們現在只有訓練的預算"},{"start":357.359,"end":361.985,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":373.66,"end":378.884,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":400.803,"end":428.784,"text":"最後我要跟部長拜託就是我知道最近這個中州科技大學最近因為學校這個人數越來越少現在已經會來退場內政部我記得有編列1比3億多的預算來做整修那我現在也是希望說部長就像我剛剛講的很多的警察因為可能現在這個軍營的人數越來越少很多警察我們現在需要他做一些軍事的支援那現在也需要疫情疫效來做一些軍事的支援"},{"start":429.404,"end":447.714,"text":"現在憲制連學校退役了以後也要來做我們民防軍事的相關的訓練我要想要請教 我想要跟部長拜託就是說是不是我內政部我們在上個會期我們並肩作戰做了很多打炸事法的修正其實內政部應該多花一些預算在打炸"},{"start":448.334,"end":476.513,"text":"或是一些警員、消防員的預算等等這些預算應該多去編列而不是因為賴總統他的一個人他自己的想法而讓內政部要這樣疲於奔命我希望未來後續因為我相信民眾還有非常多的疑惑對這件事情所以希望說部長我知道這個會期你還沒有來大家還沒有見面討論過也希望說這個會期大家一起見面來討論把這件事情讓全民來了解警政署跟消防署的預算也請張委員多多支持"},{"start":476.673,"end":481.149,"text":"他們在各莊或其他專業訓練方面確實需要委員的支持。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:50:50 - 10:58:53","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154980","gazette":{"lineno":533,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時50分）主席好，各位委員、各位官員，大家早安。是不是有請劉部長？謝謝。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：部長好，辛苦了。這個會期第一次質詢，知道你剛剛非常辛苦。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我剛剛經過新店那邊，看到你有一個請大家捐血的活動，非常好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長。今天一開始我們要討論的是有關於內政部還有跟行政院函請審議都市更新條例第六十五條的修正案，本席剛剛已經聽到很多委員陳述，那本席也非常支持。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：針對這些老宅，針對都市計畫前跟都市計畫後不同容積率的部分來探討，本席是非常支持。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：不過要跟部長報告一件事情，最近我的辦公室被很多民眾打電話來說很擔心一件事情，我不知道部長知不知道一件事情？在9月26號賴總統有主持一個「全社會防衛韌性委員會」的會議，他宣布有五大任務，要培訓40萬的民力。這個部分我要跟部長請教的問題是，民眾打電話給我，針對這個部分覺得頭皮發麻，民眾在說這個好像是賴清德總統的民兵組織，我會覺得這是一個疊床架屋的問題，浪費人民納稅錢，也要跟部長報告，全臺灣現在大概有兩百多萬的後備軍人，如果是緊急命令的時候，第一波其實有20萬的後備軍人可以上戰場，是不是請部長稍微解釋一下，在會議上跟記者會有提到你認為40萬的民兵怎麼樣來安民心，對民眾所擔心的部分，你怎麼……"],["劉部長世芳：感謝張委員，您對此非常地關心。第一個先跟張委員澄清一下，我們看到很多電視上的名嘴用「民兵」這兩個字，但事實上，在總統所主持的全社會防衛韌性委員會的會議上面，我們用的叫作「可恃民力」。民防法、災救法及替代役的管理條例這三個是我們重要的法源基礎，在民防法裡面，最重要的一個功能就是維持社會穩定、維持社會秩序、維持民生運作，像我們如果碰到大規模的震災，或是大規模的天災時，我們怎麼樣維持整個政府功能正常地運作，其實就是需要用到大量的民力，這個部分所……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。部長……"],["劉部長世芳：對不起……"],["張委員智倫：部長，我要跟你打斷一下，因為我手上剛好收到當時你們委員會有關於國安局開會的一個內容，它參考其他國家的作法，因為我才剛拿到，它參考的國家是烏克蘭，我想要請問一下部長，當時你有沒有參加這個國安單位所開的會議？"],["劉部長世芳：對不起！我沒有參加國安單位的會議，但是我在報告內政部現在主責的單位，第一個，它依法有據，像我剛剛跟你講的有三個部分，就是三個法律，即災救法、民防法跟替代役的管理條例。我所說的「可恃民力」部分，我們維持政府的正常運作跟交通安全或其他的安全，第一個我們就用到警跟消，如果有警跟消的話，義警、義消就會上來，還有民防大隊就會上來，這是一個；再來，這個有很多民間的團體，譬如說在救災單位當中，我們有的民間團體大部分是像……"],["張委員智倫：部長，不好意思，我的時間有限。我要跟部長報告，我們常常在講，過去大家知道有一部分的警察人員要被編在軍事訓練當中，當時警察人員就有很大的反彈，其實現在很多義警……"],["劉部長世芳：其實你所說的，我覺得有需要再做一下修正，應該不是做成軍事訓練，應該是說，第一個，我們的警察本來就有保一、保二、保三、保四、保五、保六……"],["張委員智倫：對！就我的瞭解，保二……"],["劉部長世芳：他們原來所保安的對象本來就是在法律上面規範的。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長，對！就我得知，基層警員反彈聲音很大，現在因為基層已經反彈很重了，所有的義警、義消或者是民防，他們當時都是處於一個熱心服務的狀態，才需要來協助，而且他們平常的作業就已經非常地忙碌。所以我想請問部長，你覺得賴清德總統所謂的40萬，不管是民兵也好，這些民力……"],["劉部長世芳：民力。"],["張委員智倫：民力的部分，你覺得有機會成功嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告一下，您現在所說的好像是一切都從零開始，但是事實上三個法律所授權的部分，包括民防的訓練，本來就會有像常訓或是幹部訓練，這個本來也在訓練當中，現在不管你所提到的，譬如說我們可能有要做關鍵基礎設施，會請一些警察同仁來幫忙的部分，我們所欠缺的就是在訓練的基礎上夠不夠專業，能不能維持關鍵基礎設施來幫忙我們社會進入好的維生系統，這個部分有一個觀念需要澄清，第一個，它不是從零開始去訓練軍隊，而是從現有的民防、義警、義消開始做好的訓練……"],["張委員智倫：好，部長、部長……"],["劉部長世芳：再加上民間團體的支援，我想這就是我們所謂的「可恃民力」，這個民力跟民兵差得非常遠……"],["張委員智倫：好，部長稍等一下，時間的關係……"],["劉部長世芳：而且我們依賴的對象不是所謂的烏克蘭，我想要跟委員報告……"],["張委員智倫：有啊！這裡有寫啊……"],["劉部長世芳：外界有太多這樣的誤解。"],["張委員智倫：好，部長不好意思，我再請教針對預算的部分，我相信全民都在看，這個非常重要，我不知道內政部在114年到底編了多少的預算，這個部分我相信我們會後可以再來討論，目前我所看到的……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們並沒有編預算，我們現在都只有訓練的預算，訓練。"],["張委員智倫：你們完全沒有編預算？"],["劉部長世芳：我們只有訓練的預算，就是常態的民防。"],["張委員智倫：訓練的預算，我想要請教部長，未來這個是內政部會自行編列人員來做訓練，還是未來會委外由一些相關的團體……"],["劉部長世芳：那要看狀況，第一個，如果是屬於專業……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，所以我希望未來這個部分……"],["劉部長世芳：如果是專業訓練的話，是由我們自己的相關單位，但是……"],["張委員智倫：但我很好奇的是臺灣有哪一些團體能訓練這些民防、義警、義消，未來能做軍事上的協助，所以……"],["劉部長世芳：我們有很多學者專家，跟委員報告，您有參加過防災演習，就知道我們有防災式的訓練，也有……"],["張委員智倫：對，我是說跟軍事相關的訓練，所以未來我相信這是需要內政部跟我們解釋的一個方向。","最後我要跟部長拜託，我知道中州科技大學最近因為學校人數越來越少，現在已經……"],["劉部長世芳：退場，教育部退場。"],["張委員智倫：未來會退場，我記得內政部有編列一筆三億多的預算來做整修，我現在也是希望部長，就像我剛剛講的，很多的警察，可能現在軍人的人數越來越少，我們現在需要很多警察做一些軍事支援，也需要義警、義消來做一些軍事支援，甚至連學校退場了以後，也要來做民防軍事相關的訓練，我想要跟部長拜託的是，內政部在上個會期跟我們並肩作戰，做了很多打詐四法的修正，其實內政部應該多花一些預算在打詐，或是一些警員、消防人員的預算等等，這些預算應該多去編列，而不是因為賴總統他自己的想法，讓內政部要這樣疲於奔命，我希望未來後續……"],["劉部長世芳：我想委員您誤解了。"],["張委員智倫：最近針對這件事情我相信民眾還有非常多的疑惑。部長，我知道這個會期你還沒有來，大家還沒有見面討論過，也希望這個會期大家一起見面討論，把這件事情讓全民來瞭解，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：警政署跟消防署的預算也請張委員多多支持。"],["張委員智倫：一定支持、一定支持。"],["劉部長世芳：他們在個裝或是其他的專業訓練方面，確實是需要委員的支持。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員質詢。","接下來我們請李坤城委員質詢，提醒一下，非本會委員發言時間5分鐘，沒有延長，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:08:50","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:50:42+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154979","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","duration":530,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:41:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b0f895ba52846d26de2c265252fbe14a8d67042be656cc2aafb7ad41ffc832ae65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.49034375,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.890968750000001,"end":6.072218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.000343750000001,"end":7.7428437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.285968750000002,"end":16.129718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.38284375,"end":23.554718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.95971875,"end":33.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.66284375,"end":110.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.94596875,"end":112.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.73909375000001,"end":155.66909375},{"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利可圖才有辦法推動政策但是不要一個不小心就變成這個草房草地的幫兇讓建商的利潤無限上綱這本席要在這個地方做一個善意的提醒我舉一個例子比如說容積獎勵跟他後面相關的一些政策我也希望我們的中央單位有一個好的配套"},{"start":111.991,"end":113.192,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":130.402,"end":158.084,"text":"建商拿走的容積獎勵蓋得很高可是到最後這個開放空間變成三不管地帶嘛你要丟給社區租屋社區租屋講這是開放空間啊對不對政府要進來圍管又很奇怪他好像是私人產權這常常變成一個真空地帶然後衍生了很多的問題本期過去的選區比如說以前的國家蓋的眷村改建大樓那個開放空間基本上都屬於被放生的狀態這其實是一個很大的問題那我今天去提這個問題的原因是什麼呢是因為"},{"start":159.365,"end":177.779,"text":"當初說導入開放空間目標就是所謂的增進公共利益嘛所以建商是不是可以據此取得容積獎勵可是你取得獎勵之後顯然很多建商在後續的維管裡面是沒有盡到相應的義務啦中央竟然有授予容積獎勵作為一個政策的誘因但是後面有沒有追蹤管理有沒有刻以義務"},{"start":178.8,"end":199.254,"text":"公權力介入之後有沒有帶來所謂的成本外部化的問題?部長你對這個事情有瞭解嗎?為什麼會發生這個開放空間無人聞聞的狀況?要怎麼解決?我瞭解您講的部分先講說您應該是支持都更條例第六十五條方向上我支持但我們希望配套完善嘛 對不對?"},{"start":199.774,"end":201.215,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":218.042,"end":234.231,"text":"一方面我們是希望說大樓的管委會可以跟外面的民眾做一個比較好的溝通不要大家好像互相敵意相向那一方面就是說大樓已經蓋好了那你又不能跟他講那對不起如果你不提供給私人用的話呢那我就大樓的再給你取消他不行他已經蓋好了他硬體建設已經弄好了"},{"start":234.991,"end":236.952,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":256.292,"end":272.604,"text":"國土署要補充嗎?跟委員報告啦其實早期的這一個眷村改建或是國宅齁其實大概都普遍存在向委員所提到的這些問題為什麼?因為早期在改建的時候呢它並還沒有導入公益大廈管理管理條例的規定它有制度前後的問題所以"},{"start":275.046,"end":276.167,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":290.573,"end":312.338,"text":"或許在早期並沒有想到這一點,所以才會有這一類的問題產生。我希望中央有一套針對這個問題的一套解決方案。當然我們今天第一次把這個問題打開,我還給他一個月的時間,所以研擬一下我們怎麼樣完善這件事。以前有很多過去的案例,剛剛部長有講,過去已經變成僵局的,你要去處理很困難。"},{"start":313.098,"end":328.563,"text":"但是除了解決陳柯之外未來可能發生的你要防範杜絕於前嘛比如說現在啊你看一下頭影片這個一樣是容積獎勵辦法這個是清北市的這個規定它其實有寫這個公共開放空間要有管理維護基金嘛"},{"start":328.803,"end":349.03,"text":"要專門撥一筆錢去做這件事情的管理維護而且理應專款專用臺北市也一樣應該要有所謂的維護費用但是實務上比如說包含剛剛署長講以前的眷村國宅你在完工之後你也撥了一筆錢可是這筆錢最後去了哪裡其實整筆都進到所謂的社區的管理基金"},{"start":349.69,"end":370.884,"text":"那請問從社區管理的角度他會先修他自己比如說電梯啊外牆他是不是以這個為優先開放空間的優先性一定被放到最後嘛所以變成你這筆錢到最後就混到大水庫裡面沒有辦法專款專用這就是問題啊如果我們的國土署我們的內政部能夠針對這樣的問題你提出一套解決方案其實也不錯嘛對不對所以本席有幾個政策的建議第一個"},{"start":371.809,"end":392.916,"text":"要把管理維護的責任納入這個規約的草約啊你不是等到大樓規約之後再來修訂啊是在預售的時候就要先跟所有買這個大樓的房子的住戶先講嘛先跟他瞭解說未來你有養戶開放空間的義務讓住戶提早有觀念欸這可不可以做這其實可以做嘛而且相對來講他沒有那麼困難第二個要訂立所謂的"},{"start":393.996,"end":396.537,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":411.584,"end":415.347,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":432.02,"end":454.605,"text":"這是前面兩個第三個如果你願意真正有魄力點或者說你介入性要強一點的話你直接規定管理維護基金要再拆一包出來嘛也就是說有開放空間我就要有一個開放空間的管理的相關的基金嘛這一筆維護費用就進到這個專戶裡面就直接落實專款專用這也是一種方法其實這些東西都是政府可以做而且它是相對簡單的事情我希望用今天時間因為我們討論容積獎勵討論未來越來越多大樓啊"},{"start":457.866,"end":485.021,"text":"此早都是大家要面對的事所以這三個方向我拋磚引玉給內政部做一個參考那當然如果部長署長針對這個開放空間沒辦法處理問題有好的做法本期也非常歡迎政府願不願意扮演一定的角色呢既然他都開放給大眾使用多一點有開放空間願意配合我多給一點補貼這也是政策的誘因的示範嘛對不對所以我希望這部長針對這樣子的問題我們做一下專案的研討是不是給一點時間給我們一點回覆跟政策的方向好嗎"},{"start":486.425,"end":505.519,"text":"報告委員,我想您講的方向非常的正確,我們也願意從善如流,但是一個月的時間確實比較短。我的意思就是說可不可以讓我們跟相關的這些單位,要跟他們溝通,而且還有包括你所講的如果要設立專款專用的話,恐怕跟公寓大廈管理條例要能夠,所以一個月確實是太短的時間。"},{"start":508.581,"end":529.078,"text":"我給部長一個會期我們這個會期我們就追蹤這個事但是我不希望是會期最後我再回頭問沒有我都隨時滾動那如果部裡面有最新的消息跟有新的進展也要跟我們來報告可以嗎這樣我很有誠意嘛我們希望在這個題目上看到成果可以嗎好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝牛許廷委員謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:41:52 - 10:50:42","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154979","gazette":{"lineno":462,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時41分）謝謝主席，內政部部長有請。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：牛委員你好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安。"],["劉部長世芳：早。"],["牛委員煦庭：這一次我們修正都更條例第六十五條，把實施容積管制前已經申請建造，並於實施容積管制後才興建完成的合法建築，納入都更獎勵容積的範圍之內，目標當然是為了提高民眾參與都更的意願。這個立法的目的本席是贊同，因為目標是要推進都市更新的進度，這個當然沒有問題，因為當初在容積管制機制上路之前，它其實是超過到後來都市計畫規範的這個人，實際上入住的人本來就比較多，那因為有交換的問題，所以你當然要以入住的人為核心去規劃政策，這個目的跟方向本席是理解。","不過，本席也要在這個地方提醒中央單位要從嚴把關，因為近年來很多的學界也好，或者一些公民團體，對於都更的容積獎勵機制其實有提出很多批評指教，包含是不是每一個獎勵的項目都符合公益性、公平性、合理性、整體性等等狀況。當然今天你要一一細數，時間不夠，專案討論就好，但是提醒內政部要從嚴把關，建商的利潤不可以無限上綱，這要很小心地拿捏平衡，也就是我們既要推動都更讓它有利可圖，才有辦法推動政策，但是不要一個不小心就變成炒房炒地的幫兇，讓建商的利潤無限上綱，本席要在這個地方做善意提醒。","我舉一個例子，比如容積獎勵跟它後面相關的一些政策，我也希望中央單位有好的配套。比如所謂的開放空間這樣子的機制，過去很多社區，尤其新的大樓裡面都有所謂的開放空間，立意非常好，也就是我這個中庭開放給大家做花園，周邊老舊社區的居民也可以進來走一走，運動一下，概念是非常好的。可是實務上的問題是什麼？建商拿走了容積獎勵蓋得很高，可是到最後這個開放空間變成三不管地帶。你要丟給社區住戶，社區住戶講這是開放空間，對不對？政府要進來維管又很奇怪，它好像是私人產權，就常常變成一個真空地帶，然後衍生了很多問題。本席過去的選區，比如以前國家蓋的眷村改建大樓，那個開放空間基本上都屬於被放生的狀態，這其實是一個很大的問題。","我今天提這個問題的原因是什麼？是因為當初說導入開放空間，目標就是所謂的增進公共利益，所以建商是不是可以據此取得容積獎勵，可是你取得獎勵之後，顯然很多建商在後續的維管裡面是沒有盡到相應的義務。中央既然有授予容積獎勵做一個政策的誘因，但是後面有沒有追蹤管理，有沒有課以義務？公權力介入之後，有沒有帶來所謂成本外部化的問題？部長，你對這個事情有了解嗎？為什麼會發生這個開放空間無人聞問的狀況，要怎麼解決？"],["劉部長世芳：我了解您講的部分，先說您應該是支持都更條例第六十五條的修正……"],["牛委員煦庭：方向上我支持。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：但我們希望配套完善，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。但是我現在碰到的困難就會像你所想的一樣，就是他在當時建造的時候說這叫公共空間，大家都可以用。可是他建完了以後，這個公共空間可能用很多圍籬或其他的方式……"],["牛委員煦庭：是的。"],["劉部長世芳：把它圍起來，等於只有社區的住戶可以用，其他人不能用。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["劉部長世芳：那外面的人要過來用的時候就會產生爭執。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：一方面我們是希望大樓的管委會可以跟外面民眾做一個比較好的溝通，不要大家好像彼此敵意相向。那一方面就是，大樓已經蓋好了，又不能跟他講「那對不起，如果你不提供給私人用的話，那我這大樓的再給你取消」。不行，它已經蓋好了。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：硬體建設已經弄好了。所以這方面我們要怎麼樣做比較好的管制或管理，確實是比較頭痛。我們也知道有管得很好的地方，但目前為止，如果你要制定其他的獎跟懲的話，確實是比較不容易，因為不容易處理獎跟懲，還有地方政府通常他們的公務單位也比較不願意介入。我們現在國土署有一些看法，提供給牛委員參考。"],["牛委員煦庭：國土署要補充嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，早期的眷村改建或是國宅，其實大概都普遍存在像委員所提到的這些問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["吳署長欣修：為什麼？因為早期在改建的時候，還沒有導入公寓大廈管理條例的規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，一樣嘛！有制度前後的問題。"],["吳署長欣修：對，制度前後的問題。所以之前國宅在交的時候，我們除了要協助他們成立管委會以外，也會挹注一定的資金放到公寓大廈的管理基金。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。我也要跟你討論這個問題。"],["吳署長欣修：其實關鍵在這裡，所以眷村早期在做的時候，或許在早期還沒有想到這一點，才會有這一類的問題產生。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望中央有針對這個問題的一套解決方案，當然我們今天第一次把這個問題打開，我要給內政部1個月的時間，研擬一下，我們怎麼樣完善這件事。有很多過去的案例，剛剛部長有講，過去已經變成僵局的你要去處理很困難。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是除了解決沈痾之外，未來可能發生的你要防患杜絕於前。比如現在，你看一下投影片，這個一樣是容積獎勵辦法，這個是新北市的規定，它其實有寫公共開放空間要有管理維護基金。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：要專門撥一筆錢去做這件事情的管理維護，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：而且理應專款專用。臺北市也一樣。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是應該要有所謂的維護費用。但是實務上，比如包含剛剛署長講以前的眷村、國宅，在完工之後，你也撥了一筆錢，可是這筆錢最後去了哪裡？其實整筆都進到所謂社區的管理基金，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那請問從社區管理的角度，它會先修自己的比如電梯、外牆，它是不是以這個為優先？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：開放空間的優先性一定被放到最後。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以變成你這一筆錢到最後就混到大水庫裡面，沒有辦法專款專用，這就是問題。如果國土署、內政部能夠針對這樣的問題提出一套解決方案，其實也不錯，對不對？","所以本席有幾個政策的建議，第一個，要把管理維護的責任納入規約草約。你不是等到大樓規約了之後再來修訂，是在預售的時候就要先跟所有買這棟大樓房子的住戶先講，先讓他了解未來你有養護開放空間的義務，讓住戶提早有觀念，這可不可以做？這其實可以做，而且相對來講它沒有那麼困難。","第二個，要訂立所謂的管理維護計畫，這個你就要求建商，對不對？我們常常給建商一大堆容積獎勵，你給它多少容積獎勵是沒有關係，但是你要課予它一定的義務。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：當你申請開放空間的時候，你就要有管理維護計畫的義務。它不只是說我繳了一筆錢，這個事就沒事了耶！我這筆錢要怎麼用、為什麼要編這筆錢？詳細的計畫、資訊的揭露要做，然後你再加上我所謂的提撥管理基金，是不是未來這些大樓的管委會去承接這個東西，有憑有據，我的規約草約有寫了、住戶知道了，建商的相關計畫也都做好了，你未來再講我要養護，我是不是有專款？它就比較能夠實踐專款專用的精神。","第三個，如果你願意，真正有魄力一點，或者你介入性要強一點的話，你直接規定管理維護基金要再拆一包出來，也就是有開放空間我就要有一個開放空間管理的相關基金，這筆維護費用就進到這個專戶裡面，就直接落實專款專用，這也是一種方法。","其實這些東西都是政府可以做，而且它是相對簡單的事情。我希望用今天的時間，因為我們討論容積獎勵，討論未來越來越多的大樓，這個遲早都是大家要面對的事。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這三個方向我拋磚引玉給內政部做參考，那當然如果部長、署長針對開放空間沒辦法處理的問題有好的作法，本席也非常歡迎，政府願不願意扮演一定的角色？既然它都開放給大眾使用，多一點、有開放空間，願意配合，我多給一點補貼，這也是政策誘因的示範，對不對？所以我希望部長，針對這樣子的問題我們做一下專案的研討，是不是花一點時間給我們一點回復，包括政策的方向，好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您講的方向非常正確，我們也願意從善如流，但是1個月時間確實比較短，因為第一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：太短了是吧？"],["劉部長世芳：不，我的意思就是，可不可以讓我們跟相關的這些單位……"],["吳署長欣修：地方政府要召開……"],["牛委員煦庭：可以，沒關係。"],["劉部長世芳：要跟他們溝通。而且還包括你所講的，如果要設立專款專用的話，恐怕跟公寓大廈管理條例要能夠……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，可能要調整。好，沒關係。"],["劉部長世芳：所以1個月確實是太短的時間，我儘量在……"],["牛委員煦庭：我給部長一個會期……"],["劉部長世芳：好，那……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個會期我們就追蹤這個事。"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：但我不希望是會期最後我再回頭問，沒有，我就隨時滾動……"],["劉部長世芳：我們把它列入追蹤。"],["牛委員煦庭：那如果部裡面有最新的消息跟新的進展，也要跟我們報告，可以嗎？這樣我很有誠意嘛！我們希望在這個題目上看到成果，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["主席（李委員柏毅代）：謝謝牛煦庭委員。接下來我們請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:07:26","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:41:46+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154978","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","duration":446,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:34:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b9bf7d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10:41:46","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154978","gazette":{"lineno":442,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時34分）主席及與會同仁，請內政部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：吳委員你好。"],["吳委員琪銘：部長，早上到現在很多人都在關心國土法，因為明年4月30日就要上路，但是現在地方也是有一些聲音，我相信還有很多的縣市都還沒有送到內政部，這種情形我們要怎麼來處理？因為地方上包含我的選區裡面，針對國保一還是很多民眾都有意見，所以整個的配套，是不是還要再來評估？就是儘量不要造成民怨，這也是讓人很頭疼，尤其我們可以看到，這整個政策上是一個對的方向，但是很多民眾還是不夠了解，是不是我們在資訊上沒辦法好好宣導，讓民眾更加了解？包括我們農民的權益；對於他們未來在規劃上，多了一個法令來綁住他們，這對他們來說也是很不公平，所以這個部分也請部長說明一下。"],["劉部長世芳：是，感謝委員。委員對選區裡面很多土地利用的部分都非常的關心，你在上會期也有提出國土計畫法是不是要如期實施的建議，但是站在我們行政單位的立場，絕對就是按照法律，因為法律也是立法院通過的。","現在真的是遇到一些困擾，就是已經送來內政部的有13個縣市，現在就我們所知應該還有兩個到三個縣市會再送上來。但是這些送上來的縣市裡面，我要跟委員補充說明清楚，國土計畫法裡面所管理的土地，還有一個叫做目的事業主管機關，第一個，中央政府是內政部、農業部或者是其他的像經濟部等等，但是地方政府也要負起一部分的責任，譬如說國保一、國保二還是農一、農二等等的這些劃分，大部分都是根據縣市政府所提出的國土計畫法再去做功能分區圖。","以新北市來說，新北市侯友宜市長在4年前就已經把國土計畫法新北市的部分送到內政部來，我們只是希望他可以根據原來所設定的國土計畫法內容，再把功能分區圖表送上來給我們，這必須要經過公展或是討論的程序，當然這當中有一些人在特別炒作；有一些人真的就像委員一樣是非常關心的，所以我們一樣都會從善如流。所謂的從善如流就是，第一項，農業部現在提出一些修改的法令跟法案，都跟我們討論了很多次，還有包括很多鄉村發展的地方，這也是需要好好來討論，不要讓我們很多關心國土計畫的委員，造成比較大的困擾，所以我們一定會在一段時間內，繼續跟地方政府，跟相關的團體，包括農民團體或是國保法裡面相關的團體再來討論清楚，看看怎麼劃分會比較好。","但是我要強調的一部分就是，地方政府也是要負責劃分功能分區，並不是由中央來劃分的，所以他們在劃分的過程當中，有些什麼困擾或是不解的地方，我們都希望可以跟他們多溝通，而不是就對外說這個國土計畫法不能用、國土計畫法很難用等等。因為國土計畫法推動已經有10年以上，而且我們都一再強調，其實臺灣在應付環境或者是氣候變遷上，我們有很多其實已經是破碎的國土，或者已經是環境敏感地區，而且未來的國土計畫裡面有一個叫做永續發展基金，我們很希望可以趕快進去做一個比較好的復育計畫，所以如果沒有通過的話，這個復育計畫就會愈往後延，我想這也是兩邊要做很好的評估跟審慎評估的部分。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝部長。因為這與我們國土的保育、永續的發展有關，你說他們的前置作業也是我們的地方政府所規劃的，不管是國保一、國保二、國保三，但是很多民眾並不了解這樣的情況，然後就認為中央到底在搞什麼。所以這點就是要充分讓民眾了解，包括我們如果太草率上路，針對民眾所關心的，在他們還沒有充分了解的情形下，部長，所以這個部分是不是要再三思一下？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我跟委員報告，包括院長也是一再跟我們要求，希望我們可以跟各部會、跟縣市政府好好溝通，我相信這個指令非常的清楚，我們會詳細的就這個評估的部分，在一段時間內，向委員或院長再做報告。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝，部長請回。","接著請教署長，今天要審查都市更新條例第六十五條，都市更新條例第六十五條就是針對我們很多危老、老舊房子更新的推動，這個部分本席是絕對同意的，但是因為臺灣是位在地震帶上，所以它的防震係數一定要提高，這點是本席最關心的。"],["吳署長欣修：是，感謝委員，這次是因為地方政府有反映，我們也有重新檢討，包括這幾年這些舊房子的更新速度，確實有一部分受到過去法條不夠清楚進而造成了一些限制，就這個部分，在這次的提案中，希望能把容積率實施之前已經有請照的，就不用再管它是不是在之前就已經完成，因為畢竟每一個縣市實施的年限不同，所以可能會造成一些執行上的困擾，針對這個部分，我們會從善如流，既然地方也覺得有實施上困擾的時候，不如就來修法，讓更多的老舊大樓可以加速進行都更。"],["吳委員琪銘：尤其在雙北地區，很多危樓或是超過30年的大樓，都還是集中在雙北。"],["吳署長欣修：差不多七成。"],["吳委員琪銘：所以這個條例可以通過，對推動雙北危樓、老舊房子更新的速度會更快。"],["吳署長欣修：是，關於這點，我們希望委員會可以大力支持，的確，這裡面有超過七成都是位於雙北，所以我希望可以讓更多大樓可以適用這個條例修正後發揮的效果。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，感謝署長，希望可以加速。謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，下一個請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:09:27","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:34:13+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154977","委員名稱":"李柏毅","duration":567,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:24:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2beea5dc5b92586fe9e2c265252fbe14a8d67042be656cc2aaa5208fd0eaaaa0ed5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.72534375,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.26471875,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.812843750000003,"end":29.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.824093750000003,"end":28.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.49034375,"end":32.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.90346875,"end":32.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.12284375,"end":36.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.32471875,"end":41.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.74596875,"end":46.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.17971875,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.52096875,"end":52.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.03534375,"end":55.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.70159375,"end":56.477843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.64659375,"end":59.734718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.156593750000006,"end":61.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.43471875,"end":67.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.88534375,"end":68.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.15096875,"end":73.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.99409375,"end":74.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.95596875000001,"end":75.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.88409375,"end":78.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.60096875,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.04221875,"end":90.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.73409375,"end":91.17284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.42596875000001,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委員你講得沒有錯各項容積獎勵第一個基礎就是要有必要性跟公益性所謂的必要性跟公益性譬如說這是一個危險的地方或者這是一個環境敏感的地方然後再來就是說必要性跟公益性非常的重要譬如說高雄市很早以前比台北市更早獲得移居城市"},{"start":457.717,"end":469.02,"text":"但是就我所知道高雄市的都市計劃委員會很少用移居城市這四個字當成個別個案上面容積獎勵的一個最主要的指標那當然我們都是尊重每個縣市政府對他們容積獎勵上面的一個指導或者是其他的這個方向上的指示但是我們還是一再的跟外面講清楚說明白容積獎勵你在經過都市計劃委員會不管是各級的都委會的時候"},{"start":485.005,"end":500.098,"text":"確定一定要符合必要性跟公益性公益性這三個字非常的重要如果它是商業性的話第一個大部分的都市計劃委員包括是官方或會官方或學者專家通常會同意的比例不會太高"},{"start":500.498,"end":522.961,"text":"今天其實也有三個直轄市的這個都發局的同仁在這裡這個也作為日後的參考那直轄市當然是可以有核定相關的這一些都市計畫但是如果沒有符合剛剛講的這一些未來還是會被受到挑戰的而且這個有釋法性的問題另外最後想要再對"},{"start":524.582,"end":552.728,"text":"未來可能在住宅法裡面有這些相關公辦都跟以及這個社會住宅的時候都可以納入附近的這些可能必須要安置的住戶的這些空間那我們會未來在住宅法裡面做一個修法讓租入中心未來的這些不管是社會住宅或者是未來的產業住宅包含高雄舊左宗以及中遊宿舍區域等等的這些居民有安置"},{"start":553.228,"end":555.209,"text":"的作用以有安置的效果。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:24:46 - 10:34:13","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154977","gazette":{"lineno":421,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時25分）請部長先回座。今天颱風，所以時間先不要開始，想先跟主席做一個會議詢問。主席，我們今天是一次會，但禮拜三是審消防法，我剛剛跟黃捷委員做了討論，也都在關心山陀兒颱風的動態，很有可能是禮拜二或禮拜三，也很有可能是屏東甚至高雄，已經看到颱風一直在轉向，部長也一直點頭，可能會從高雄登陸，如果禮拜三從高雄登陸，我們這裡排消防法的審修，第一個，對於南部委員來講，我們覺得壓力很大；第二個，對於所有一線的消防人員來講，我們覺得那一天可能要做適時的討論跟評估，在這邊先做一個會議建議，會後再跟主席做相關的討論，謝謝主席。","請國土署署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：署長，今天有很多委員，我是第9位質詢的委員，很多委員都在前面把國土署回復給立法院的這3張公文非常熟讀，而且來詢問署長，我想熟讀、詢問之外，跟我們今天所要審的都市更新條例第六十五條修正案，其實我想要很白話的跟所有民眾做解釋，我們今天審的這個都更條例第六十五條是在審1999年以前已經蓋好，但是經過都更條例容積的限制之後，事實上他們蓋好的房子是超過之後的容積，我們希望可以放寬，甚至可以獎勵他們，讓這些已經超過30年的房子未來都更時比較沒有問題。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員柏毅：我想剛才大部分的委員除了提出相關的同意認可之外，提案委員跟國土署及內政部提的方向也大致一致，這是攸關我們人民住的地方的容積，關於容積，現在住30坪，未來參與都更之後，會不會少於30坪，主要是在討論這個，我們先給予正面的回應。","9月20號，在國土署回應給立法院某個委員辦公室的公文中，這個是針對某一個商業廣場經營不善以後，他要改變經營模式，甚至要拿出來賣，經過易手、拿出來賣之後，再跟臺北市政府爭取相關的容積。到現在，我也看不懂了，根據都市計畫容積管制，第二十四條、第二十六條、第二十七條到底是自提還是通檢，還是做這些變更等等，好像只要有辦法提升它的容積，每一項都想要放進去。我舉我自己選區的例子，我稍後要請劉部長上來，也跟劉部長做一個比較深的討論，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["李委員柏毅：過去你在高雄市政府也擔任過高雄市政府都市計畫委員會的主委。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["李委員柏毅：針對高雄市的容積獎勵等等，你是非常嚴格的把關，針對歷史建築保存或者是公共建設、交通設施，還是綠建築、社宅、都更計畫區域這些才可能給予相關的容積獎勵。我在國土署這一份公文裡面其實看不到這個商業空間有任何以上的容積獎勵基礎，但是我卻看到臺北市政府給予韌性城市、智慧城市、宜居城市的這些容獎，我覺得蠻奇怪的；包含國土署給立法院的公文，避免就特定或單一對象於細部計畫的這些規定項目，我想這幾句話不是對行政部門講的，這幾句話，第一個，是在騙民眾；第二個，應該是在跟檢察官以及法官講「避免不等於禁止」，這如果在我們上一個會期通過的反質詢以及藐視國會項目，如果用這個公文來質詢吳欣修署長，吳欣修署長你可能就是藐視國會，你知道嗎？","我在這邊很感謝剛剛幾位委員，也給署長很清楚的說明，我也說明一下，為什麼請部長上來？就是你在高雄市政府任內，在我們所爭取的眷村文化保留園區裡面，目前也正在進行文化眷村都更，文化眷村都更在做什麼？就是把高雄海軍眷村文化保留園區，緯六路以北，目前都沒有開發的區域來跟民間合作，希望可以開發，而開發所獲得的資金可以用來保存緯六路以南的眷村文化保留園區，高度保存它的現貌，而且可以加以修繕，這個是高雄市政府目前跟國防部以及文化部、文化局正在進行的工作，我們也會繼續的投入，部長以前曾經做過很多努力，在這邊也跟部長做一個報告。"],["劉部長世芳：不好意思，讓委員來做報告。我想委員你講得沒有錯，各項容積獎勵的第一個基礎。就是要有必要性跟公益性，所謂的必要性跟公益性，譬如說，這是一個危險的地方，或者這是一個環境敏感的地方；再來就是必要性跟公益性非常的重要，譬如說，高雄市在很早以前，比臺北市更早獲得宜居城市，但是就我所知道，高雄市都市計畫委員會很少用「宜居城市」這四個字當成個別個案容積獎勵一個最主要的指標，當然我們都是尊重每個縣市政府對他們容積獎勵上面的一個指導，或者是其他方向上的指示，但是我們還是一再的跟外面講清楚、說明白，容積獎勵在經過都市計畫委員會，不管是在各級都委會的時候，一定都要符合必要性跟公益性，「公益性」這三個字非常的重要。如果它是商業性的話，第一個，大部分的都市計畫委員，包括官方或非官方或學者專家，通常會同意的比例不會太高。"],["李委員柏毅：今天其實也有三個直轄市的都發局同仁在這裡，這個也可以作為日後的參考，直轄市當然是可以核定相關的都市計畫，但是如果沒有符合剛剛講的這一些，未來還是會受到挑戰的，而且這個有適法性的問題。","最後，未來可能在住宅法裡面，相關的公辦都更以及社會住宅，都可以納入附近將來可能必須要安置的住戶的一些空間，我們未來在住宅法裡面會做一個修法，讓住都中心，不管是社會住宅或者是未來的產業住宅，包含高雄舊左中以及中油宿舍區等等的居民，有安置的空間以及有安置的效果。總之，我們之後會提出住宅法相關的一些討論，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員對左楠地區的關心。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:07:21","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:22:38+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154976","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","duration":441,"start_time":"2024-09-30T11:15:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bfddab7e9a12020cc10639eb4554d3b09d67042be656cc2aa8907197c2445be6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.9715937500000003,"end":6.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.329093750000002,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.51471875,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.66659375,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.57784375,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.644718750000003,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.00284375,"end":18.711593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.93096875,"end":22.778468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.031593750000003,"end":23.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.16221875,"end":24.887843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.524093750000002,"end":30.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.08096875,"end":33.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.814718750000004,"end":41.610968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.37034375,"end":43.821593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.54721875,"end":47.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.02346875,"end":49.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.221593750000004,"end":54.165968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.52034375,"end":55.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.039093750000006,"end":65.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.99096875000001,"end":68.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.79659375,"end":70.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.85534375,"end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時間很緊迫 我很簡短的問 最近大家很關心的就是Uber Eats跟Hupenda它的併購問題你覺得為了保持市場競爭 我們應該評估的交易關係者有哪些至少包括外送員 消費者 還有餐廳所以我這邊少了一個外送員 對不對所以你連外送員都考慮進去 我覺得很好好 那我們往下看"},{"start":56.109,"end":81.5,"text":"其實我這邊過去曾經舉過例子在美國對於AT&T在數十年前被強制拆分成七個公司你覺得這是根據什麼法你所了解的?因為AT&T是獨佔嘛它在美國它是一個算是有限電視有限通訊的部分那您覺得台灣有在公平會我們除了合併之外有可能像美國這樣要求一個獨佔事業強制拆分嗎?"},{"start":83.049,"end":101.062,"text":"我們會看案情那你認為過去我們在核准有線電視系統業者的時候我們把它規劃成51個區那除了少數區是附屬之外當年每個區都是一個業者你覺得這樣符不符合我們一個公平交易所要保持的市場秩序"},{"start":103.244,"end":103.504,"text":"有線電視系統業者"},{"start":125.103,"end":140.431,"text":"公共的網路這網路的基礎建設大部分是政府完成的加上使用的訊號頻寬是屬於政府可以來管制的所以政府當然可以予以限制那你覺得這個外送平台外送員是不是使用公家的道路公共道路"},{"start":142.335,"end":159.891,"text":"有,一定要在馬路上送嘛,他用的都是公共基礎建設嘛所以他的營業的範疇是建立在政府的基礎建設之上所以政府構不構成政府介入去過問這個外送平台使用公共建設所產生的市場秩序的一個依據"},{"start":163.199,"end":187.495,"text":"不管他有沒有用到公共建設,所有的事業都要符合市場基礎資訊。是,但是他如果用公共建設的時候,我們政府就更有介入去管制的空間。我舉例,Uber Eats或Pupenta,他有沒有用到資訊流?有嘛。他的付款要用金流,都是要網路基礎建設嘛。他的物流用公共道路嘛。他目前的大量使用公共基礎設施。哪一個類似的情況,我舉個例,往下看。"},{"start":188.339,"end":216.559,"text":"好 那有線電視呢 因為這樣的關係 它有自然獨佔的形成 所以要求政府介入再往下看那麼我們在關於我們的這個外送平台當中副院長主持的消保會當中呢 它規定了兩件事情第一個 它認為它在資訊流的部分還有第三方資物的部分 物流跟資訊流 它希望速發部來主管但是外送員他說叫做貨運業屬於交通部的特許事業你認同這樣的一個主管權責嗎"},{"start":218.131,"end":237.752,"text":"因為什麼是貨運業在交通部有他的主管法規對他們認為外送員就是在從事貨運那至於跟這個他的外送平台之間是一種承攬關係還是勞僱關係當然那是另外一件事情但是他們使用公共道路運交貨物就是一個特許行業好那我們來看"},{"start":238.328,"end":264.19,"text":"所以我們政府要討論到底要不要介入去訂定合理的運費運費包括兩種一種是消費者付的第一種是外送員拿到的那這兩種包括消費者利用資訊平台跟外送資訊公司跟外送平台下單然後下面有一個貨運公司將這個餐飲從餐廳由外送員送到顧客的手上這裡面包含了很多的部分我們往下看"},{"start":264.878,"end":266.259,"text":"經濟委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":280.664,"end":300.737,"text":"換言之,未來你們在審查WhoPanda跟UberEat,他不是只是審查一個資訊平台、兩個資訊平台合併與否,他事實上還包含了兩個金流支付公司要不要合併,還包含了全台灣那麼多使用地方政府管轄道路的貨運業務,要不要做一個整併的問題,您同意嗎?"},{"start":301.781,"end":322.697,"text":"我想就是說各個法規怎麼規範就由各個法規那回到不管有沒有結合都是從競爭秩序是競爭秩序你認為在一個縣市當中兩個客運公司的競爭你們要考慮它的市場秩序嗎?都要考慮好那你們認為一個高雄的外送員可能送餐到台北市嗎?"},{"start":325.031,"end":341.861,"text":"理論上是不太可能因為餐飲有它的實現性所以理論上如果是貨運平台外送的這個貨運物流的階段往下看它事實上它是一個各區域各自分開的所以未來如果這兩家外送平台他們在談合併的時候"},{"start":345.143,"end":368.41,"text":"你們不管最後做於同意或不同意都應該思考到未來你們所關心的剛剛你講的外送員的權益他是附著在一個貨運地區性的貨運的一個業務上那這樣的貨運業務必須合理的投射回來你們在審查這兩個表面上以資訊公司合併的案例來看待"},{"start":369.19,"end":378.038,"text":"金流的部分他們如果兩家合併超過20億就不是歸速發部第三方事務所主管會歸金管會主管這你們知道嗎"},{"start":379.824,"end":399.27,"text":"你們知道對不對 如果他們兩個合併的話 金流的部分 他們的業務主管機關就要轉移了 就要從哪裡 從速發部轉移到金管會了金管會是我同意 那就是另外一件事情 但是物流的部分 要不要拆分 金管會 公平會要不要做出一個明白的表示"},{"start":400.883,"end":418.568,"text":"在審結合的部分你們會不會同時規範它物流的部分可否結合我想這個到時候要再整個來看好那今天本席要提醒你既然一開始你就告訴我這一次的他們兩家的結合不是只有金流的部分不是設餐廳不是設消費者"},{"start":419.648,"end":420.349,"text":"我希望我們會綜合考量好 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:15:17 - 11:22:38","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154976","gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時15分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好，時間很緊迫，我很簡短地問。最近大家很關心的就是Uber Eats跟foodpanda的併購問題，你覺得為了保持市場競爭，應該評估的交易關係者有哪些？"],["李主任委員鎂：至少包括外送員、消費者，還有餐廳。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我這邊少了一個外送員，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你連外送員都考慮進去，我覺得很好。","其實我過去曾經舉過一個例子，在美國，對於AT&T在數十年前被強制拆分成7個公司，以你所瞭解的，你覺得這是根據什麼法？因為AT&T是獨占，它在美國算是有線通訊，您覺得在臺灣，除了合併之外，公平會有可能像美國這樣要求一個獨占事業強制拆分嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會看案情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。過去在核准有線電視系統業者的時候，我們把它規劃成51個區，除了少數區是複數之外，當年每個區都是一個業者，你覺得這樣符不符合公平交易所要保持的市場秩序？有關有線電視系統業者。"],["李主任委員鎂：有線電視比較特別的就是它還有NCC主管的法規部分，所以是兩邊會處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，但是除了六都之外，大部分都是一區一家業者，你覺得一區一家業者有沒有妨礙到市場的公平性？"],["李主任委員鎂：應該是要看情形。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，看什麼情形，往下看，有線電視是使用公共的網路，這個網路的基礎建設大部分是政府完成的，加上它使用的訊號頻寬是屬於政府可以來管制的，所以政府當然可以予以限制，那你覺得外送平臺的外送員是不是使用公家的道路、公共道路？"],["李主任委員鎂：有，一定要在馬路上送。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，他在馬路上送，他用的都是公共基礎建設，他的營業範疇是建立在政府的基礎建設之上，所以是否構成政府介入去過問這個外送平臺使用公共建設所產生的市場秩序的依據？你再思考一下，我告訴你……"],["李主任委員鎂：不管他有沒有用到公共建設，所有的事業都要符合市場競爭秩序。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，但是他如果有用到公共建設，政府就更有介入去管制的空間。我舉例，Uber Eats或foodpanda有沒有用到資訊流，有嘛！它的付款、金流，都是用到網路基礎建設，它的物流是用公共道路，所以它目前大量使用到公共基礎設施，有什麼類似的情況，我舉個例，有線電視因為這樣的關係形成自然獨占，所以要求政府介入。關於外送平臺的部分，在副院長主持的消保會會議，他規定了兩件事情，第一個，他認為在資訊流還有第三方支付的部分，即物流跟資訊流，他希望數發部來主管，但是他說外送員叫做貨運業，屬於交通部的特許事業，你認同這樣的主管權責嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有關貨運業的部分，在交通部有主管法規，就由交通部去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，他們認為外送員就是在從事貨運，至於跟外送平臺之間是一種承攬關係還是勞僱關係，當然那是另外一件事情，但是他們使用公共道路運交貨物就是一個特許行業。所以政府要討論到底要不要介入去訂定合理的運費，運費包括兩種，一種是消費者付的，另一種是外送員拿到的，這兩種包括消費者利用資訊平臺，透過資訊公司跟外送平臺下單，然後下面有一個貨運公司，由外送員將餐飲從餐廳送到顧客的手上，這裡面包含了很多部分。另外，既然已經規定金流跟資訊流的部分是由數發部來主管，那你認為在貨運的部分是不是應該依現在客運公司的情況，實際上它是分區來設立的；換言之，未來你們在審查foodpanda跟Uber Eats時，並不是只審一個資訊平臺、兩個資訊平臺合併與否，事實上還包含了兩個金流支付公司要不要合併，還包含全臺灣那麼多使用地方政府管轄道路的貨運業務要不要整併的問題，您同意嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：各法規怎麼規範就由各個法規處理，不管有沒有結合，都是從競爭秩序進步化的態度去看它……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為在一個縣市當中，對於兩家客運公司的競爭要考慮市場秩序嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：都要考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。你們認為一個高雄的外送員可能送餐到臺北市嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：理論上不太可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不太可能？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為東西要新鮮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：餐飲有時效性、時限性。所以理論上，如果是從貨運平臺外送貨運物流的階段來看，事實上是各區域、各自分開的。未來如果這兩家外送平臺foodpanda跟Uber Eats談合併時，不管你們最後同意或不同意，都應該思考、關心到未來、你剛剛所講的，外送員的權益是附著在地區性的貨運業務上。而這樣的貨運業務必須合理投射回來，也就是你們在審查這兩個表面上以資訊公司合併的案例來看待，在金流部分，如果兩家合併後超過20億，就不歸數發部第三方支付所主管，而是歸金管會主管，這點你們知道嗎？知道，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：有一些分工。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果他們兩個合併的話，金流部分的業務主管機關就要轉移了，要從數發部轉移到金管會。至於金管會是否同意？那又是另外一件事。但物流的部分要不要拆分？公平會要不要做出明白的表示？"],["李主任委員鎂：在審結合的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們會不會同時規範它物流的部分可否結合？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個到時候要再整個來看。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今天本席要提醒你，既然你一開始就告訴我，這次兩家的結合不是只有金流，也不只涉及餐廳、消費者，還包括當中物流配送的外送員。未來你們對這兩家公司的合併審核上，考慮到交易公平性時，也應該考量交易關係人，包括外送員是否應該有區域屬性的貨運公司，並與他們進行權益上的規範跟保障，同意嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想我們會綜合考量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 請李主委請李主委主委 先問一下那個每個月都會問 高通他的新的承諾跟這個臺灣企業支持這些的方案目前之前狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":54.482,"end":76.446,"text":"和解方案都有照和解條件在進行那去年也已經這個時間到來有沒有打折扣或者執行不力都有照這個規約進行都有還有幾年要執行執行的時間5年已經執行完畢而且我們把所有這個和解方案執行的結果那評估都已經上網公告"},{"start":77.153,"end":95.945,"text":"所以對他們的相關的承諾或者這個之前相關的賠償你們都可以接受他目前所做的最後的結果都照和解條件在進行後面還有沒有那這些和解條件有些是延續性的會繼續去處理"},{"start":98.061,"end":124.252,"text":"還有哪些需要去從和解條件再去跟我們說明他其實兩個方案一個是就是跟業者的授權的關係一個是這個增進臺灣的一些相關的這個科技的發展那目前在持續進行的比如說一些創新競賽還有跟學校的一些合作這些方案都是他們承諾嘛是那現在你知道他要他要合併什麼他要購併人家公司你知道嗎"},{"start":127.759,"end":140.225,"text":"有看到這個新聞 詳細情形你應該了解他過病當然會對他承諾會不會造成影響啊他過病的機能非常大喔是 這個我們會注意七百多億啦不是代表內 美金內"},{"start":142.063,"end":142.384,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":163.527,"end":166.228,"text":"兩家外送平台的市場界定你完成了嗎?"},{"start":194.401,"end":220.475,"text":"我們過去是界定它的那個市場界定是外送餐飲平台那現在市場怎麼界定我們還在評估當中一直評估評估很久那這個要整個資料齊備整個資料齊備以後我們各界關切的這些議題會同感來處理那時間點能不能說一下市場界定什麼時候完成總不能無限期啊總要有個時間表啊主委市場界定有那麼困難嗎"},{"start":223.9,"end":248.511,"text":"這個跟委員說明一下我們的程序是這樣子齁文件齊備之後進入委員會去討論市場界定也是委員會討論的一環我們目前請高通公司抱歉 請那個輔本大補件的期間是11月8號那我們會看他補件的情形10月8號你才會正式立案欸 對不對應該是備齊了 備齊了才會正式受理"},{"start":252.593,"end":253.554,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":281.379,"end":307.217,"text":"這個比較大的案件通常...我知道啦,這是看...當然這是也不能無限期啊然後你四戰後,結合後的四戰率會不會超過五成?結合後的四戰率會,會超過你看喔,你看過去啊,你處理這個購避難的結果只要大概五成,你大概都會禁止結合你看一下資料只要結合後四戰率超過五成,你大概就是禁止"},{"start":308.994,"end":317.503,"text":"4層以下你大概也都會有條件通過你從結果論來看那你這個結合之後你們4戰力戰多少應該有8層以上這樣你看這個結果會成不成"},{"start":323.393,"end":349.6,"text":"這還要委員會討論我現在沒有辦法我看你們過去處理的結果來看嘛過去喔你只要有50%你就是禁止結合啦過去結合以後喔如果他市場率很集中我們在審議的時候會非常的這個謹慎另外企業運用AI收集消費者資訊並進行這個差別取價這部分會影響相關的法規這你們要注意一下這是我們會注意"},{"start":350.4,"end":370.558,"text":"B to B 你們用20條第二款,那B to C的部分,您這個要不要涉及修法,可能自己要考慮一下。主委,您知道嗎?我知道,我知道。你20條在裡面,你那個B to B大概可以來處理,但是B to C的部分呢,這個差別待遇你沒有辦法適用啊。"},{"start":371.638,"end":373.479,"text":"人工智慧基本法草案在立法過程中有沒有問公平會的意見?"},{"start":401.391,"end":404.913,"text":"人工智慧基本法定出來之後公平會可能會變成消費者進行個人化的定價就帶來風險"},{"start":433.281,"end":438.623,"text":"AI的發展跟各部會的法規的協調調和是一個非常重要的要去關注的。這17條的部分你要怎麼處理?你要去跟主管機關反映"},{"start":460.992,"end":488.744,"text":"現在就是說以目前的狀態公平法的規範它如果涉及到競爭的議題目前可以處理那當然細部有沒有不足的地方我們再來評估是不是可以針對這部分你提一個書面報告給我是一個月之內好的好不好那回到剛才你這個跨國企業集合案我看你時間都沒有一個時間表然後這個每次問你還在收集資料還在提供資料"},{"start":490.527,"end":490.647,"text":"邱志偉"},{"start":510.481,"end":536.602,"text":"這個案主管機關審查的時間法律上是有規定的就是30天文件期備30天可是補件資料那個補件的時間要看各案件的不同文件期備的準備期你沒有限制啊就現在你還沒有立案嘛因為每個案件的情況不一樣我要遵守這個發言人的這個時間齁時間到我就要遵守這個我當然知道我要以身作則"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:06:11 - 11:15:13","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154975","gazette":{"lineno":619,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時6分）謝謝主席，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["邱委員志偉：主委，先問一下，每個會期都會問，高通的行為承諾跟臺灣企業支持的這些方案，目前執行的狀況怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：和解方案都有照和解條件進行，去年時間也已經到了……"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有打折扣或者執行不力？"],["李主任委員鎂：都有照契約進行。"],["邱委員志偉：還有幾年要執行？"],["李主任委員鎂：執行的時間五年已經執行完畢，而且我們把所有和解方案執行的結果、評估都已經上網公告。"],["邱委員志偉：所以對它們相關的承諾，或者之前相關的賠償，你們都可以接受它們目前所做最後的結果？"],["李主任委員鎂：都照和解條件在進行。"],["邱委員志偉：後面還有沒有？"],["李主任委員鎂：這些和解條件有一些是延續性的會繼續處理。"],["邱委員志偉：還有哪些需要從和解條件再去著墨？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，它其實有兩個方案，一個是跟業者的授權關係，一個是增進臺灣一些相關科技的發展，目前在持續進行的，譬如說一些創新競賽，還有跟學校的一些合作都有在進行。"],["邱委員志偉：這些方案都是他們承諾嘛？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你知道它現在要合併什麼？它要購併一家公司，你知道嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有看到這個新聞，詳細情形……"],["邱委員志偉：你應該了解它購併對它的承諾會不會造成影響啊！它購併的金額非常大喔！"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這個我們會注意。"],["邱委員志偉：七百多億不是臺幣，是美金！七百多億要購併，如果是自願還是非自願，你要了解，會不會影響到它之後承諾履行的能力，會不會？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為現在我們還沒有看到這個結合申報的案件，那我們會注意委員提到的這些事情。"],["邱委員志偉：不是啦！那個跟我們無關啦！它是要購併英特爾，我是說它去購併對它公司的營運或對執行我們的相關承諾會不會受影響？"],["李主任委員鎂：英特爾！現在我的了解是它們應該還在評估當中啦！"],["邱委員志偉：對啦！如果是真的成案會不會對我們執行能力造成影響？"],["李主任委員鎂：這到時候我們會去做一些評估。"],["邱委員志偉：好，我們繼續看一下，兩家外送平臺的市場界定你完成了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們過去是市場界定是外送餐飲平臺，現在市場怎麼界定，我們還在評估當中。"],["邱委員志偉：一直評估，評估很久！時間點要抓出來啦！"],["李主任委員鎂：這個要等資料齊備……"],["邱委員志偉：什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：整個資料齊備以後，我們對各界關切的這些議題會通盤來處理。"],["邱委員志偉：時間點能不能說一下？市場界定什麼時候完成？總不能無限期啊！總要有個時間表，主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：是、是。"],["邱委員志偉：市場界定有那麼困難嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明一下，我們的程序是文件齊備之後進入委員會去討論，市場界定也是委員會討論的一環。"],["邱委員志偉：那個我都知道，剛剛已經很多人問了，你都答了，我就直接問你時間點，大概多久會完成市場界定？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們目前請foodpanda補件的期間是11月8號，會看它補件的情形……"],["邱委員志偉：所以11月8號你才會正式立案，對不對？如果到時候是11月8號補件完成才正式立案嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：應該是備齊了才會正式受理。"],["邱委員志偉：5月送案，正式立案要等半年，這個行政效率要檢討一下。"],["李主任委員鎂：受理。"],["邱委員志偉：資料蒐集得怎麼樣，你可以主動，不能太被動，我提醒你們一下。"],["李主任委員鎂：因為針對一些資料我們有提出疑問，譬如說各界關切的跟外送員等等各方面，它的意見是什麼，我們要請它回應。"],["邱委員志偉：你可以主動調查，你也可以被動等它提供，如果是我，我就限定時間，一定要處理好，跟它說你資料要提供給我，不能讓它一直拖、拖、拖、拖、拖。"],["李主任委員鎂：這個比較大的案件通常都是……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，這個跨國的當然……但是也不能無限期啊！然後結合後的市占率會不會超過五成？"],["李主任委員鎂：結合後的市占率會超過，因為是第一大併第二大。"],["邱委員志偉：你看一下過去處理購併案的結果，只要是五成，你大概都會禁止結合，你看一下資料，只要結合後市占率超過五成，你大概就是禁止；四成以下，你大概也都會有條件通過，這是從結果論來看。那這兩家結合之後，市占率占多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：應該有八成以上。"],["邱委員志偉：喔！這樣你看這個結果，會不會併購成功？"],["李主任委員鎂：這還要經委員會討論，我現在沒有辦法……"],["邱委員志偉：沒有啦，以你們過去處理的結果來看嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：過去……"],["邱委員志偉：只要有50%，你就是禁止結合，這個有80%……"],["李主任委員鎂：就是結合以後如果它的市場率很集中，我們在審議的時候會非常地謹慎。"],["邱委員志偉：對，你們要小心。","另外，有關企業運用AI蒐集消費者資訊並進行差別取價，這個部分會影響相關的法規，你們要注意一下。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們會注意。"],["邱委員志偉：B2B的部分，你們用第二十條第二款；B2C的部分要不要涉及修法？可能你們自己要考慮一下，主委，你知道我的意思嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我知道。"],["邱委員志偉：第二十條第二款大概可以來處理B2B的部分，但是B2C的部分，這個差別待遇你沒有辦法適用，大家都已經提供給你可能會發生的問題。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會看看競爭面的影響，最後還是回到競爭面。"],["邱委員志偉：你要先瞭解人工智慧基本法第十一條，相關規定是不是可以符合你的業務、不會造成影響？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這個我們有小組在討論。"],["邱委員志偉：你有反映過嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有，公平會有一個AI專案小組。"],["邱委員志偉：人工智慧基本法草案在立法過程中有沒有問公平會的意見？"],["李主任委員鎂：都有跨部會協商。"],["邱委員志偉：你們有參加嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：在院裡面有一個AI的相關法案，都有參與。"],["邱委員志偉：你本身瞭解嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有參與。"],["邱委員志偉：你瞭解，那你要表示意見啊！B2B有，但是B2C的部分呢？沒有辦法規範，所以我提出這個問題，跨部會的橫向聯繫很重要。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：人工智慧基本法訂出來之後，公平會可能會變成關注消費者進行個人化的定價所帶來的風險，對不對？所以你要注意。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：有關這個部分，你有什麼看法？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想有關AI的發展，跟各部會法規的協調、調合，是一個非常重要要去關注的……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，但是第十七條的部分你要怎麼處理嘛？你要去跟主管機關反映啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：以目前公平法的規範，它如果涉及到競爭的議題，目前可以處理，當然細部有沒有不足的地方，我們再來評估。"],["邱委員志偉：我點出這個問題就是希望你提早因應，是不是可以針對這部分提一個書面報告給我？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：一個月之內，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：好的。"],["邱委員志偉：回到剛才的議題，有關這個跨國企業結合案，我看你都沒有一個時間表，然後每次問你都說還在蒐集資料、還在提供資料，針對跨國企業的結合案，你能夠怎麼樣把審查效率提升？其他國家有很多的作法給你參考，你要明確化，時程也要訂得很清楚，我們才能監督。否則每次來，你就說還在蒐集資料、還在蒐集資料。"],["李主任委員鎂：主管機關審查相關案件的時間，法律上是有規定的，就是30天，文件齊備30天，可是補件資料……"],["邱委員志偉：但是文件齊備的準備期，你沒有限制啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：補件的時間要看各案件的不同……"],["邱委員志偉：文件齊備的準備期，你沒有限制，現在你還沒有立案，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為每個案件的情況不一樣。"],["邱委員志偉：我要遵守發言時間，時間到，我就要遵守，我當召委要以身作則。"],["主席：現在請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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吳沛憶"},{"start":132.252,"end":157.29,"text":"在這個學界引起很大的討論那因為前面委員剛也討論很多我直接進結論請教一下我們現在有關於永續發展科學防災科技、空間資訊科技等三個學門有沒有要進行整併或者是調整沒有沒有嘛好那這三個學門我們要繼續的來支持在預算方面有沒有進行調整"},{"start":158.089,"end":179.674,"text":"有,我們其實早就編好了明年的預算,今年的預算3個學門4.8億,我們明年已經編到5.2億了所以我們是持續在支持所以我們預算會持續來增加對,已經編列了,希望不要被刪減好,所以學門不會調整,預算要增加,這個也是我希望看到的方向但是啊,但是啊"},{"start":181.035,"end":202.436,"text":"這個不能只看結果,過程當中我相信剛剛前面很多委員都提醒了在整個學界社群當中的參與討論各方的諮詢公開的透明這件事情為什麼這麼重要因為我們這幾個學門正好就叫做跨領域的研究"},{"start":203.998,"end":225.035,"text":"2017年聯合國教科文組織也就提出了我們跨領域的研究這是對我們未來全球性挑戰的一個解方2020年的OECD的報告同樣告訴我們說跨領域研究的重要性而當中因為它是跨領域所以你一定會有不同的單位一定會有更多的參與者"},{"start":226.997,"end":247.226,"text":"所以決策的透明以及擴大參與兩點至關重要請你們未來不管要有怎麼樣的更動一定要來遵守這樣子的程序同意可不可以是好接下來要跟主委討論大家都很關心從上個會期我們都在關切就是AI"},{"start":248.406,"end":263.36,"text":"因為AI是向全世界最關注的科技議題 蕭美琴副總統在AI年會上說AI這個是革命 而革命當中是成是敗 取決於我們能否跟上時代"},{"start":264.641,"end":283.9,"text":"我們現在看到幾個評估的資料說台灣的AI產業目前在亞洲是落後新加坡落後南韓落後日本甚至落後中國目前有一項因為好幾份報告有一份我們名次是第19名朱委員你怎麼看待這個名次"},{"start":285.865,"end":300.956,"text":"我們要虛心檢討因為過去台灣其實是重點我們一直在發展我們的硬體產業來供給全世界應用AI的這個算力那我們其實是過去比較忽略掉我們國內自己要發展自己的應用"},{"start":302.397,"end":329.339,"text":"所以我們現在已經積極在編列未來幾年的預算增加我們的算力增加算力以後利用這些算力來除了做科研的研究之外科技研究之外那也準備把這個研究成果要擴散到應用面能夠開發自己的主權AI那應用系統雲端的這個服務讓我們的人民可以受惠"},{"start":330.24,"end":332.201,"text":"我相信未來幾年我們排名會逐步的上升會進到全世界的前段班"},{"start":349.305,"end":352.509,"text":"我相信因為半導體已經是我們的優勢了所以有能夠應用到AI產業我們其實是有相當的競爭力跟未來的潛力發展的我在看我們幾個數字一個是我們的準備度我們的排名當然目前是在第19名"},{"start":367.865,"end":390.72,"text":"但是跟中國來比較,111年度我們甚至曾經一度領先中國所以我想它是動態性的發展所以你剛剛講的我們現在的準備跟規劃其實就要朝向中長期的就要開始來投入了嘛對不對那以算力來說我比較關切的是我們超級電腦的這個算力它也有一個排名嘛"},{"start":392.481,"end":420.458,"text":"回答在去年來建制的這個超級電腦目前的排名是全球全球是第38名但是我們國科會自己的台灣三二號台灣三三號都目前都是在百名以外我看你們這個台灣三二號是2018年建制的所以時間也算是久因為這個就是在跟時間賽跑對已經五年了所以我們要加進來我們打算怎麼樣來加強"},{"start":421.539,"end":443.446,"text":"我們現在已經在建新的這個資料中心了我相信明年開始運作以後我們排名就會往前了那我們未來幾年預算會逐年再編列再增加明年是重點我們明年編了40幾億是希望把這個資料中心超級電腦的這個設備一下可以提升提升很多也開始啟動我們的應用"},{"start":444.946,"end":445.587,"text":"我相信大家可以拭目以待"},{"start":467.345,"end":495.131,"text":"所以明年的預算如果通過的話對我們的算力的提升會是一個關鍵的支持對不對?你們要去說明清楚啊另外主委你多次提到這個主權AI能不能說明什麼叫主權AI主權AI第一點就是說我們的訓練資料要用本土的訓練資料因為應用在本土所以國內的應用我們自己的資料我們要建我們自己的資料中心我們目前的有沒有自己的?"},{"start":495.911,"end":515.579,"text":"我們有部分的公司自己有在做但是我們的政府還有這個一般的民眾的使用目前還是主要仰賴國外的這些系統所以大概我們很多的資料都散佈到全世界去了那將來比較關鍵性的資料我們希望能夠留在國內"},{"start":516.739,"end":539.481,"text":"所以要建自己的資料中心是很重要的再來就是發展自主的應用系統自主應用系統是可以配合我們自己的資料訓練出比較有能源使用效率的比較好的運算的模型能夠讓台灣的民眾受惠於我們自己的主權AI的建置能夠提供更多的增進民眾福祉的這些應用"},{"start":539.741,"end":558.12,"text":"所以我們的台德也算是其中之一嗎?台德是一個先期的...是其中之一的...但是還包括很多其他的計畫對不對?我們現在學界還有其他的這個模型也在考慮上講到主旋AI我也關切因為我看到傳出一個消息說去年底的時候OpenAI開始跟中東的投資者有在談"},{"start":559.321,"end":573.096,"text":"就是說討論可能未來OpenAI有可能會把資料中心建置在中東為什麼大家會這麼擔心因為它有地緣政治的關聯嘛包括中東、俄羅斯、中國這些極權國家我們擔心說會產生資安的漏洞跟後門"},{"start":579.242,"end":589.252,"text":"所以我們台灣要建置自己的主權AI世界各國也都在努力要建置自己的主權AI這一點相關的重要所以我一再的說"},{"start":590.984,"end":591.004,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":618.323,"end":624.087,"text":"新增預算根據預算法規．立法院沒有通過可不可以動之?"},{"start":624.087,"end":643.68,"text":"不可以欸!所以你們要去把它說明清楚 各位大家人生在世啊 有很多非常珍貴的事情跟時間要做既然花時間在這裡質詢備詢了 不要打假球 不要演戲既然大家都認為AI要發展 我們要進步"},{"start":644.961,"end":648.162,"text":"我們這些除了剛講的這個新增預算你還包括什麼我幫你看了你們院的新增預算總共有14.6億有氣候變遷研究的有空間有序規劃的有疾病導向的生醫資料研究還有我們的綠能設施我們的實驗高級中學學校建設計畫"},{"start":664.946,"end":665.427,"text":"吳沛憶吳沛憶吳沛憶"},{"start":685.316,"end":705.254,"text":"所以剛剛大家在這邊討論這麼多AI要發展主權AI每一個國家都在關心但是我們如果要馬而跑又不給馬而吃草不給預算的話請問這個計算要怎麼進行你的計畫要怎麼進行你沒有辦法動得主委所以你也必須要負責任的向市民報告講了這麼多該做的事情"},{"start":708.957,"end":721.245,"text":"但是預算沒有通過這些項目你剛剛說我們的AI你說幾年之內你甚至是不是說我們要超過韓國幾年之內要超越韓國我們的目標三年之內要超越韓國我們台灣喊出來了嘛但是你的預算在哪裡你沒有錢你的計畫怎麼做"},{"start":731.041,"end":751.239,"text":"主委這非常重要所以我要拜託你在立法院被尋的時候你們只要負責任的把這些計畫的重要性對我們國家來說我們的國民為什麼需要它請清楚的告訴國民政治的事情我們立委會來負責但是你們要清楚的向國民說明因為這是你們的專業好不好是謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:58:32 - 11:11:08","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"154974","gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時58分）謝謝主席，我請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：吳委員好！"],["吳委員沛憶：主委好！主委，剛剛前面的委員問你，沒有能源就沒有AI，其實沒有預算也更不可能有AI，所以我替你感到很辛苦……"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：科學理性，還要有務實……"],["吳主任委員誠文：多謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：現在在野黨的立委又要擋預算，剛剛又要你們做一堆工作，沒有預算要怎麼做？所以在備詢的時候，你們要理性務實地把你們遇到的困難向委員以及市民報告，因為你站在備詢臺，我站在質詢臺，你不只對立委負責，你是對全國的人民負責……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：都要清楚地去說明。","接下來，在進入今天這個專題報告討論之前，因為我看到一個新聞相當擔憂，想跟主委先請教，有媒體報導，中國的半導體有可能技術已經追趕到不只落後臺灣3年。這是個很震驚的消息！但是因為這是媒體報導的、報載的，主委，因為你也是半導體專業，所以我想要請教，對於這樣子的報導，你有什麼樣的評論？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我其實存疑啦！"],["吳委員沛憶：中國在近年之內有可能半導體的技術追趕上臺灣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認為10年以上落差。"],["吳委員沛憶：目前的落差至少10年以上嘛，中國半導體晶片現在是幾奈米？7奈米嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：7奈米。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們臺灣台積電現在5奈米，而且我們即將就要達到2奈米的目標，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：台積電已經進到2奈米了。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，所以剛剛主委你說中國的半導體現在落後臺灣至少10年以上，我看到這個消息很震驚，我知道你是這個專業，所以今天先跟您請教。","接下來有關今天我們的專題報告，剛剛前面非常多委員都很關注的，當然就是我們的學門在學界引起很大的討論，因為前面的委員剛剛也討論很多，我直接進結論，請教一下我們現在關於永續發展科學、防災科技、空間資訊科技等三個學門有沒有要進行整併或者是調整？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有嘛，好。這三個學門我們要繼續來支持，在預算方面有沒有進行調整？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，我們其實早就編好了明年的預算，今年三個學門的預算4.8億，我們明年已經編到5.2億了，所以我們是持續在支持。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以我們的預算會持續來增加？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，已經編列了，希望不要被刪減。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，所以學門不會調整、預算要增加，這個也是我希望看到的方向。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們是很正面的。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是這個不能只看結果，過程當中我相信剛剛前面很多委員都提醒了，在整個學界社群當中的參與討論、各方的諮詢、公開透明等等這件事情為什麼這麼重要？因為這幾個學門正好就叫做跨領域的研究。2017年聯合國教科文組織也提出了跨領域的研究，這是對我們未來全球性挑戰的一個解方，2020年OECD的報告同樣告訴我們跨領域研究的重要性，因為它是跨領域，其中一定會有不同的單位、一定會有更多的參與者，所以決策的透明以及擴大參與兩點至關重要，請你們未來不管有怎麼樣的更動，一定要遵守這樣子的程序，可不可以？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，同意。"],["吳委員沛憶：接下來要跟主委討論大家都很關心的，從上個會期我們都在關切的就是AI，因為AI是現在全世界最關注的科技議題，蕭美琴副總統在AI年會上面說，AI是革命！而革命當中是成是敗取決於我們能否跟上時代，我們現在看到有幾個評估資料說，臺灣的AI產業目前在亞洲是落後新加坡、落後南韓、落後日本，甚至落後中國。這有好幾份報告，目前有一份我們的名次是第19名，主委，你怎麼看待這個名次？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個我們要虛心檢討，因為過去臺灣其實一直重點發展我們的硬體產業來供給全世界應用AI的算力，我們過去比較忽略掉國內自己要發展自己的應用，所以在所謂的……"],["吳委員沛憶：你是說準備度嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：準備度，對，所以我們現在已經積極在編列未來幾年的預算來增加我們的算力，增加算力以後，利用這些算力除了做科技研究之外，也準備把這個研究成果要擴散到應用面，能夠開發自己的主權AI、應用系統、雲端服務，讓我們的人民可以受惠，百工百業的發展可以利用到我們自己發展出來的系統，所以不只是供給到全世界的硬體，我們國內也要應用到自己發展的這個系統，這樣子的話，我相信未來幾年我們排名會逐步的上升、會進到全世界的前段班。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，我相信！因為半導體已經是我們的優勢了，如果能夠應用到AI產業，我們其實是有相當的競爭力跟未來的發展潛力。","我再看我們的幾個數字，一個是準備度，我們目前的排名是在第19名，可是跟中國來比較，111年度我們甚至曾經一度領先中國，我想它是動態性的發展，所以你剛剛講到我們現在的準備跟規劃，其實朝向中長期就要開始來投入了嘛，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：那以算力來說，我比較關切的是超級電腦算力也有一個排名，輝達在去年建置的超級電腦目前排名是全球第38名，但是我們國科會自己的臺灣杉2號、臺灣杉3號到目前都是在百名以外！我看你們這個臺灣杉2號是2018年建置的，所以時間也算是舊，因為這個就是在跟時間賽跑嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，已經5年了，所以我們要加緊腳步。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們打算怎麼樣來加強？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在已經在建新的資料中心了，我相信明年開始運作以後，我們的排名就會往前了，我們未來幾年預算會逐年再編列、再增加，明年是重點，我們明年編了四十幾億，希望把這個資料中心、超級電腦的設備一下可以提升很多，也開始啟動我們的應用系統開發，那會結合我們的產業界一起來加入，所以不只政府自己的投資，我相信臺灣的產業因為政府的投資、引導以及應用的開發、主權AI的建置，我們的產業界也會積極投入，所以速度會比我們現在設想的還要快，我想大家可以拭目以待。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，所以明年的預算如果通過的話，對我們的算力提升會是一個關鍵的支持，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：非常重要，是很關鍵！"],["吳委員沛憶：你們要去說明清楚。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：另外，主委多次提到主權AI，能不能說明什麼叫主權AI？"],["吳主任委員誠文：主權AI第一點就是我們的訓練資料要用本土的訓練資料，因為應用在本土，所以國內應用我們自己的資料，我們要建我們自己的資料中心。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們目前有沒有自己的AI？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們有部分的公司自己有在做，但是我們政府還有一般民眾的使用目前主要還是仰賴國外的這些系統，所以我們很多的資料大概都散布到全世界去了，將來比較關鍵性的資料我們希望能夠留在國內，所以要建自己的資料中心是很重要的；再來就是發展自主的應用系統，自主應用系統是可以配合我們自己的資料，訓練出比較有能源使用效率的、比較好的運算模型，能夠讓臺灣的民眾受惠於我們自己的主權AI建置，能夠提供更多增進民眾福祉的這些應用。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以我們的臺德也算是其中之一嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：臺德只是一個先期的。"],["吳委員沛憶：只是其中之一的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：其中之一。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是還包括很多其他計畫，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在學界還有其他的模型也在……"],["吳委員沛憶：講到主權AI我也關切，因為我看到有傳出一個消息說，去年底的時候OpenAI開始跟中東的投資者有在討論，未來OpenAI有可能會把資料中心建置在中東，為什麼大家會這麼擔心？因為這有地緣政治的關聯，包括中東、俄羅斯、中國這些集權國家，我們擔心會產生資安的漏洞跟後門，所以我們臺灣要建置自己的主權AI，世界各國也都在努力要建置自己的主權AI，這一點相當的重要！","所以我一再地說，預算啊！因為現在在野黨把我們總預算整個退回、擋預算，甚至坊間有一種似是而非的說法是，如果是沿用去年的預算，不管立法院有沒有通過都可以繼續動支，所以沒差、沒影響。但光是我們剛剛提到主權AI相關的幾個計畫，很多都叫做新增預算，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：新增預算根據預算法規，立法院沒有通過可不可以動支？不可以耶！所以你們要去把它說明清楚，主委！大家人生在世有很多非常珍貴的事情跟時間要做，既然花時間在這裡質詢、備詢了，不要打假球、不要演戲！既然大家都認為AI要發展、我們要進步，除了剛剛講的新增預算還包括什麼？我幫你看了，你明年的新增預算總共有14.6億，有氣候變遷研究的、有空間永續規劃的、有疾病導向的生醫資料研究，還有我們的綠能設施、實驗高級中學學校建設計畫、科學園區的電價補差、實驗中學電價優惠等等，這些都叫做新增預算！我過去是當市議員、現在當立法委員，大家都有預算法的概念，新增預算立法院沒有通過，你們通通一毛錢不准用，沒有預算怎麼推動計畫？所以剛剛大家在這邊討論這麼多，AI要發展、主權AI每個國家都在關心，但是我們如果要馬兒跑又不給馬兒吃草，不給預算的話，請問這個計畫要怎麼進行？你的計畫要怎麼進行？你沒有辦法動的，主委，所以你也必須要負責任地向市民報告，講了這麼多該做的事情，可是預算沒有通過，而這些項目，你剛剛說我們的AI，你甚至是不是說我們在幾年之內要超越韓國？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然希望超越韓國。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們的目標是3年之內要超越韓國，我們臺灣喊出來了嘛！但是你的預算在哪裡？你沒有錢你的計畫怎麼做？主委，這非常重要，所以我要拜託你在立法院備詢的時候，你們只要負責任地把這些計畫的重要性，對我們國家來說，我們的國民為什麼需要它，請清楚地告訴國民，政治的事情我們立委會來負責，但是你們要清楚地向國民說明，因為這是你們的專業，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳沛憶委員，吳主委請回。","休息5分鐘。","休息（11時11分）","繼續開會（11時16分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","再來請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:12:33","end_time":"2024-09-30T11:10:25+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play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首先先敬祝我們主席健康平安 早日康復好 謝謝陳委員那我們有請我們人事長好 請人事長委員早 人事長早 人事長"},{"start":26.621,"end":44.937,"text":"我想我們人事總處所掌管的政府的相關業務包括公部門的人力規劃培訓福利等等對於我們政府整體的施政效能以及公務員的工作條件密切相關尤其我們看到軍公教的待遇連續"},{"start":46.398,"end":74.111,"text":"兩年調整這也是我們人總來主導審議的這剛剛也聽我們人事長已經報告了那我們也期待明年度的總預算能夠盡早實質的來審查不要影響到公務員的權益當然我們人總要照顧的不只是軍公教還有整個公務體系的工作夥伴因此想針對這個測量助理待遇的調整問題來和我們人事長做一個探討"},{"start":75.802,"end":105.306,"text":"之前在本席的選區宜蘭縣有接獲到在地的這個測量助理團體來向我陳情那全國有2000多位的我們這個測量助理員他們的年功想多年來都沒有被調整過而且這個已經反映多年了那平常在進行外勤的工作的時候還得負重這個上山下海其實相當的辛苦我相信這我們人事長您也應該可以認同但是長期在"},{"start":105.946,"end":129.27,"text":"新資難以發展的這個環境已經嚴重打擊到測量助理員的這個工作士氣而我想這個案子這個我們人總這邊應該也研議了一段時間也經過相當多的這個單位諸多的討論我想請教人事長就是對於測量助理員的這個待遇調整目前推動的進度為何"},{"start":130.792,"end":149.073,"text":"我這裡跟委員報告一下那個內政部在今年的7月9號有函報行政院那按照我們的標準週月程序我們會會相關的機關不過這個案子我跟委員報告大概我們目標大概11月15號以前會把他簽出來那"},{"start":150.274,"end":172.724,"text":"當然目前的訴求是調2000到5000之間那至於調額多少我想我們會尊重相關機關大概我們也支持往上調至於調補多少我們要尊重相關機關的意見那整個時程我們希望10月15號今天9月30我們希望大概兩個禮拜左右要把這個案子給"},{"start":176.076,"end":204.757,"text":"那我們大概10月15號把這個案子把他final然後生肖日期一樣也會在明年的1月1號明年1號就是確定可以核定這個整個結果就對了對這兩的工作會的部分這兩工作會就是我們現在訴求是2000往上調嘛那調補多少我坦白講我我們現在還在收斂的階段那是不是"},{"start":205.898,"end":233.65,"text":"我們說真的這個人總沒有辦法來決定他final的條幅那人事長我想請教為什麼不針對這個年功享的部分來做調整年功享的部分我們有算過有一些年資比要漲的你年功享去變動的話反而他那幾年就沒有辦法領到年功後反而會造成他的實質收益實質守得會降低有跟他們溝通過"},{"start":234.87,"end":264.59,"text":"因為你年紀這麼大,你到年功奉的話你可以獎金有兩個月嘛,你打破那個年功賞的部分也只能往上,他本身他領的錢還會更少,這個有跟他們溝通過了,假如他們覺得這樣對他們來講會比較有保障,我覺得也是可以請內政部簽上來,我們事實上可以來協助。"},{"start":264.81,"end":284.281,"text":"好目前我們就是針對這個工作工作會的部分10月15號2000到5000還不確定那10月15號可以有一個Final的金額是多少然後生效日明年1月1號好那這個就請我們人事總署這邊能夠積極加速來辦理那我們也會持續來追蹤"},{"start":288.624,"end":315.484,"text":"我希望透過這個比較合理的待遇的調整能夠讓我們公部門留住人才也可以激勵我們相關這些測量助理員的一個工作士氣這個部分再拜託謝謝委員一直持續在關注這個議題我們會在下個月15號以前會把它簽出來我們就靜待好消息謝謝謝謝委員那另外就提到這個待遇提升的合理化"},{"start":316.565,"end":331.719,"text":"也是這個人種設定的重點施政策略之一那這邊我想就這個公務公教員工的這個地域家籍之籍的這個制度來救教我們人事長那對於公教人員"},{"start":332.399,"end":333.68,"text":"行政院各機關學校公教員工"},{"start":350.43,"end":370.371,"text":"第一家級合理化調整的方案至109年實施到今年也即將滿5年的這個實施期程那我想請教人事長合理化的方案執行情形是否有符合預期的這個效益那為何只有部分的地方政府願意採用合理化的這個方案"},{"start":371.69,"end":385.142,"text":"我想會議使用這個合理化方案基本上就是有些有城鄉落差,就是像你像屏東,然後恆春,事實上我們從屏南到屏北要兩點晚上嘛"},{"start":386.743,"end":402.317,"text":"有些像滿洲鄉有些比較偏僻的地方他們覺得用合理化方案會比較有幫助連澎湖澎湖他也是最近才加入合理化方案目前總共有8個縣市加入合理化方案"},{"start":402.897,"end":422.258,"text":"實際上這個也就是說在原有的第一佳級裡面我們給地方政府多一個選項就是傳統我們在定義的就是離車站或者公車站牌多遠還有那個海拔的高度還有離島我們會設定這一些然後給予不同的一個佳級"},{"start":423.86,"end":440.788,"text":"除了這個以外我們在意新興因為總是還要考慮到他整個財政規劃的問題因為除了中央補助以外當合理化方案施行到一個階段他本身地方政府的財政也要能夠來做cover"},{"start":443.329,"end":460.294,"text":"合理化方案實施已經5年的時間,我們是不是應該也要啟動檢討評估的機制,包括是否有降低流動率,成功留住人才,讓人才持續在地服務,也考慮到各縣市政府的財政狀況的不一樣。"},{"start":462.975,"end":482.397,"text":"我們也要有多面向的評估並且因為這個時空環境的因素合理化方案的內容也必須與時俱進的來做檢討那我想請教我們人事總處預計何時能夠邀集中央跟地方政府來"},{"start":482.858,"end":483.98,"text":"謝謝委員 事實上我們在這個月的9月13號就已經召集相關"},{"start":499.942,"end":500.603,"text":"：陳俊宇"},{"start":523.4,"end":524.401,"text":"我還是希望我們人總能夠持續積極來辦理"},{"start":541.37,"end":562.805,"text":"讓加擠相關制度能夠更貼近真實的情況也讓我們到偏遠地區服務的這些公務人員都能夠獲得合理的待遇我相信這是大家所期待的另外我想再請教我們人事長就是在上個會期在第一週的時候我有針對這個五一"},{"start":565.667,"end":576.362,"text":"勞動節的部分是否可以來全國一致性的休假當時這個人事長您也非常這個樂意的來回應針對這個部分我們會進行相關的檢討那當時因為"},{"start":581.868,"end":607.553,"text":"這個時間非常緊迫我們期待在今年五一可以實施後來也這個落空沒有辦法這個如期來執行當然我們在期待是明年的五一是不是可以這個確定全國一致性的來放假那在我們人總所發送的這個行事曆的裡面看到五一還是黑字的所以我想請教"},{"start":608.874,"end":614.548,"text":"這個人事長對於明年五一勞動節我們目前規劃是不是可以全國一致性的放假"},{"start":616.544,"end":639.298,"text":"謝謝委員這個問題我想明年五一的這個放假的基本上他的前提應該在內政部他有一個假日及忌廉日實施辦法他要去修改那修改完以後再送過來我們再去更新他的前期是這樣那我想我們也一樣在等內政部的他們整體的一個評估考量"},{"start":639.858,"end":645.357,"text":"好那這個部分我們人事長您這邊我們人總沒辦法跟他有一個內部的溝通嗎?"},{"start":646.738,"end":652.4,"text":"因為聽起來普遍應該全國我們所有的這些勞工階級的這些民眾都是期待能夠統一無一就是放假所以我還是期待我們人事長可以跟內政部這邊表達我們這個意思"},{"start":672.369,"end":681.474,"text":"那當然我們也透過內政部的相關質詢來質詢內政部我希望說大家有一個共識共同來朝這個目標來前進可不可以"},{"start":682.938,"end":708.087,"text":"我事實上是完全因為這裡面會有兩個議題一個內政部的節日及節日實施辦法另外一個是在89年6月30號大宴做一個才是公務人員的一個請假的我們一年的假大概是115到116有一個附帶結議基本上我們現在就是一個是尊重大宴在89年6月30號的這個結議第二個就是內政部"},{"start":712.729,"end":724.819,"text":"當這兩個都已經解開了以後我覺得會有各種可以討論的空間好那這部分還是請我們人總這邊積極來溝通因為五一勞動節我還是強調五一勞動節當天沒有全國一致性放假會造成許多這個階層的這個混亂的情況你現在像孩子"},{"start":735.287,"end":736.349,"text":"主席陳俊宇"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:57:52 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11:10:25","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154973","gazette":{"lineno":658,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時58分）首先敬祝主席健康平安、早日康復。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：人事長早。人事長，人事總處所掌管的政府相關業務包括公部門的人力規劃、培訓、福利等等，與政府整體的施政效能及公務員的工作條件密切相關，尤其我們看到軍公教的待遇連續2年調整，這也是人總主導審議的，剛剛已經聽人事長報告了。我們也期待明年度的總預算能夠儘早實質地審查，不要影響到公務員的權益。當然，人總要照顧的不只是軍公教，還有整個公務體系的工作夥伴，因此本席想針對測量助理待遇的調整問題和人事長做一個探討。","之前在本席的選區宜蘭縣有接獲在地的測量助理團體向我陳情。全國有兩千多位的測量助理員，他們的年功餉多年來都沒有被調整過，而且這個已經反映多年了，平常在進行外勤工作的時候還得負重、上山下海，其實相當地辛苦，我相信人事長您也應該可以認同，但是長期在薪資難以發展的環境，已經嚴重打擊到測量助理員的工作士氣。我想對於這個案子，人總應該研議了一段時間，也經過相當多單位諸多的討論，我想請教人事長，對於測量助理員的待遇調整，目前推動的進度為何？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡跟委員報告一下，內政部在今年的7月9號有函報行政院，按照標準作業程序，我們也會會相關的機關。不過這個案子我跟委員報告，我們目標大概10月15號以前會把它簽出來，當然目前的訴求是調2,000元到5,000元之間，至於調額多少，我想我們會尊重相關機關，大概我們也支持往上調，至於調幅多少，我們要尊重相關機關的意見，整個時程我們希望10月15號，今天9月30嘛！我們希望大概兩個禮拜左右要把這個案子給……我們大概10月15號把這個案子final，然後生效日期一樣也會在明年的1月1號。"],["陳委員俊宇：明年1號？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：就是確定可以核定整個結果就對了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，測量工作費的部分，我們現在訴求是2,000元往上調嘛！那調幅多少，坦白講我們現在還在收斂的階段，說真的，人總沒有辦法來決定它final的調幅。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，人事長，我想請教為什麼不針對年功餉的部分來做調整？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：年功餉的部分我們有算過，有一些年資比較長的，年功餉去變動的話，反而他那幾年就沒有辦法領到年功俸，反而會造成他的實質所得降低，有跟他們溝通過。因為年紀比較大的，說真的到年功俸的話，獎金可以有兩個月，如果打破年功餉的部分，職等又往上，他本身領的錢反而會更少，這個有跟他們溝通過了，假如他們覺得這樣對他們來講會比較有保障，我覺得也是可以請內政部簽上來，事實上我們可以來協助。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，目前我們就是針對工作……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：測量工作費的部分10月15號……"],["陳委員俊宇：2,000元到5,000元，還不確定啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：10月15號可以有一個初步的……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：final的金額是多少，然後生效日明年1月1號。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這個就請人事總處這邊能夠積極加速來辦理，我們也會持續來追蹤，希望透過比較合理的待遇調整，能夠讓公部門留住人才，也可以激勵這些測量助理員的工作士氣啦！這個部分再拜託。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員一直持續在關注這個議題，我們在下個月15號以前會把它簽出來。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們就靜待好消息。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外提到待遇提升的合理化，也是人總設定的重點施政策略之一，這邊我想就公教員工地域加給支給的制度來就教人事長，對於公教人員到較為偏遠地區服務，地理環境和交通狀況比較艱困，政府應該考慮各服務地點的差異給予相應而且合理的加給，而行政院對於各機關學校公教員工地域加給合理化調整的方案，自109年實施到今年也即將滿5年的實施期程。我想請教蘇人事長，合理化的方案執行情形是否有符合預期的效益？為何只有部分的地方政府願意採用合理化的方案？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想會去使用這個合理化方案基本上就是有些有城鄉落差，像屏東恆春，事實上我們從屏南到屏北要兩個多小時嘛！像滿州鄉有些比較偏僻的地方，他們覺得用合理化方案會比較有幫助，even連澎湖也是最近才加入合理化方案，目前總共有8個縣市加入合理化方案，事實上這就是在原有的地域加給裡面，我們給地方政府多一個選項。傳統我們在定義的就是離車站或者公車站牌多遠，還有海拔的高度、離島，我們會設定這些給予不同的加給。除了這個以外，我們總是還要考慮到它整個財政規劃的問題，因為除了中央補助以外，當合理化方案施行到一個階段，本身地方政府的財政也要能夠來做cover。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，合理化方案實施已經5年的時間，我們是不是應該也要啟動檢討評估的機制，包括是否有降低流動率，成功留住人才，讓人才持續在地服務，也考慮到各縣市政府財政狀況的不一樣，我們也要有多面向的評估，並且因為時空環境的因素，合理化方案的內容也必須與時俱進的來做檢討啦！我想請教人事總處，預計何時能夠邀集中央跟地方政府來會商檢討，以及我們接下來對於在地加給的合理化應該如何來精進？人事長，您可不可以大概說明一下？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員的意見，事實上我們在這個月（9月）13號就已經召集相關機關來開過會，預計在明年6月底以前要彙整相關的意見及資料，來做final的確定，因為下一個階段是會從115年1月一直到119年，所以目前事實上已經啟動了啦！"],["陳委員俊宇：是。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為剛才委員也提了非常多寶貴的建議，像它有些條件重新的define，那我們會在未來的9個月期間做一個綜整。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我還是希望人總能夠持續積極來辦理，因為讓加給相關制度能夠更貼近真實的情況，也讓到偏遠地區服務的這些公務人員都能夠獲得合理的待遇，我相信這是大家所期待的。","另外，我想再請教人事長，在上個會期第一週的時候，我有提到五一勞動節是否可以全國一致性的休假，當時人事長您也非常樂意的回應針對這個部分會進行相關的檢討，當時因為時間非常緊迫，我們期待在今年五一可以實施，後來也落空，沒有辦法如期來執行，當然我們期待明年的五一是不是可以確定全國一致性的放假，在人總所發送的行事曆裡面看到五一還是黑字。所以我想請教人事長，對於明年五一勞動節，我們目前規劃是不是可以全國一致性的放假？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員這個問題，我想明年五一的放假，基本上前提應該在內政部，它有一個紀念日及節日實施辦法，它要去修改，修改完以後再送過來，我們再去更新，它的前提是這樣，我想我們也一樣在等內政部他們整體的評估考量。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這個部分人總這邊沒辦法跟它有一個內部的溝通嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有在溝通啊！他們……"],["陳委員俊宇：都沒有……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有啦！他們有一些特殊的考量。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為聽起來普遍全國所有勞工階級的這些民眾，都是期待能夠統一五一就是放假，所以我還是期待人事長可以跟內政部這邊表達我們這個意思啦！當然我們也透過內政部的相關質詢來質詢內政部，我希望大家有一個共識，共同朝這個目標來前進，可不可以？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為這裡面有兩個議題，一個是內政部的紀念日及節日實施辦法；另外一個是在89年6月30號大院做一個裁示，公務人員一年的假大概是115天到116天，有一個附帶決議啦！基本上，我們現在就是尊重大院在89年6月30號的這個決議，第二個就是內政部，當這兩個都已經解開了以後，我覺得會有各種可以討論的空間。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這部分還是請人總這邊積極來溝通，我還是強調，五一勞動節當天沒有全國一致性放假會造成許多階層混亂的情況，像現在五一勞動節小朋友是有休假，可是他的家長有一些是沒有休假，所以這個部分還是請人總跟內政部積極溝通看看，以上，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員、謝謝蘇人事長。現在我們休息5分鐘。","休息（11時10分）","繼續開會（11時24分）"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會。現在有請吳召委宗憲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","林思銘","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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主委"},{"start":228.942,"end":229.162,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":246.92,"end":248.721,"text":"移送司法當然是應該所以怎麼樣公平會要去主動"},{"start":276.721,"end":297.262,"text":"主動有很多種,已經發生的事情要主動,還沒有發生的要怎麼去讓人民去防範更重要,對不對,讓人民去防範更重要,就像過去多層次傳銷開始很慢,"},{"start":301.527,"end":314.14,"text":"這個這個這個非常多的情況的時候你們有多很多的這個氣氣這個的先導讓人民知道怎麼樣去防範怎麼樣不要被受騙"},{"start":315.7,"end":337.947,"text":"所以你們現在這個部分有沒有在做有第一個我們在除了在電視的跑馬燈或者是在這個跟大學跟司法機關還有在跟民眾之間我們都有定期的宣導會座談會這個一直是我們在做的一件事情我們全省各地都有在做宣導好這個你們除了"},{"start":342.665,"end":360.895,"text":"除了我先把這個你們的對25條規定如何判斷事業行為是否過程第25條之期往或顯示公平。這裡面你們也判斷期往應考量的事項都有寫了。"},{"start":362.54,"end":389.126,"text":"以積極欺瞞或消極隱匿重要交易資訊自引人錯誤之方式從事交易之行為冒充或不實或隱匿像這樣的你們要因為這個你們這個已經放很久了這樣的那個處理的一個原則放很久或者要點"},{"start":390.353,"end":413.641,"text":"你們要以時計進,要去分析現況,打些案件哪些案件網路,哪些案件是已經以時,怎麼樣去把它做一個修正更符合這個一個現況,然後叫你們在做宣導的時候"},{"start":415.883,"end":419.647,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":438.905,"end":440.726,"text":"你是不是把這個類型有哪些類型"},{"start":468.012,"end":473.575,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":490.902,"end":491.362,"text":"對於這個違反這個的"},{"start":525.618,"end":545.227,"text":"我們要看他這個行為有沒有涉及到詐欺或是其他的這個法律禁止的行為會看這個案情來決定要不要移送或者是由公平法來處罰"},{"start":546.656,"end":573.715,"text":"所以你們是折一嗎?還是兩者並行?如果涉及到形式那因為司法機關調查就會移送給司法機關如果是行政處罰的適用範圍我們就會去處理所以你們是折一?如果依這個處罰依公平交易法是12條處罰你們就不移送了是嗎?如果沒有涉及到形式的行為是不會移送"},{"start":574.315,"end":592.85,"text":"那你們也提供那個你們到底移送了哪些類型那後來這個這個法院判決會告訴你們嗎最後的結果法院的判決會跟我們會處理是不是也提供資料好的謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:56:06 - 11:06:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154972","gazette":{"lineno":592,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時56分）主席、委員。我們請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委好，辛苦了。還是要跟主委和公平會所有的同仁說，網路的詐騙其實就是一個交易，它用交易的手段去做詐騙，這個情形非常、非常普遍，臺灣被詐金額占GDP高達0.9%，是已開發國家第一，換算絕對金額高達2,000億臺幣，這麼高！","公平交易委員會成立的時候，或者是我們的公平交易法制定當時，並沒有這樣的情形，所以要與時俱進，法不周延，到底要如何去修正？現在都是交給警察單位，主要是警察單位在處理，這是錯誤的。針對這個部分，如果我們看公平交易委員會組織法第一條，它規定的是行政院為維護交易秩序與消費者權益，所以要成立公平會，而公平交易委員會組織法第二條規定了公平會掌理的事項，其中屬於剛才講的是「違反公平交易法案件之調查及處分」，所以像這樣的情形要怎麼樣去處理？在公平交易法第二條對「事業」的定義當中，公司從事網路詐騙的比較少，大概是獨資或合夥之工商行號，或者是其他提供商品或服務從事交易之人或團體。而公平交易法第二十五條規定「除本法另有規定者外，事業亦不得為其他足以影響交易秩序之欺罔……」，欺罔就是欺騙嘛！對不對？所以在這樣的情形之下，公平會到底要怎麼樣去積極作為？如果法不足就修法，人力不足就增加人力！主委？"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員。在公平法，我們的任務就如同您剛才提出來的，我們是在維持公平競爭，不可以有不公平競爭。其中，您提到不實廣告，所以不實廣告這部分也是我們查處的重點。不實如果涉及到詐欺、詐騙，這不只是行政責任，也是刑事責任，我們就會移送司法機關，該搜索、該調查的，司法機關會去調查。確實公平會對於商品或服務不實的廣告，我們應該要積極查處。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然是應該移送司法，所以公平會要怎麼樣主動？主動有很多種，已經發生的事情要主動，還沒有發生的要怎麼讓人民去防範更重要，對不對？讓人民防範更重要，就像過去多層次傳銷開始很慢，情況非常多的時候，你們多了很多宣導，讓人民知道怎麼樣去防範，怎麼樣不要受騙，所以你們現在有沒有在做這個部分？"],["李主任委員鎂：有，第一個，除了在電視的跑馬燈，或者是跟大學、司法機關，還有與民眾之間，我們都有定期的宣導會、座談會，這個一直是我們在做的事情，我們全省各地都有在宣導。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我先就第二十五條規定，如何判斷事業行為是否構成第二十五條之欺罔或顯失公平？你們判斷欺罔應考量事項都有寫了，指以積極欺瞞或消極隱匿重要交易資訊致引人錯誤之方式，從事交易之行為。如冒充或不實或是隱匿等，像這樣的，因為這樣的處理原則或要點已經放很久了，你們要與時俱進，有沒有分析哪些案件、網路哪些案件，怎麼樣把它修正，以更符合現況，然後你們在宣導的時候也會比較完備，所以這個部分要再加油。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：公平交易法第四十二條規定違反第二十五條有這個處罰，你們對於違反第二十五條有沒有相關處罰的這些……"],["李主任委員鎂：第二十五條我們處罰的案例很多，譬如說，前一陣子造成糾紛最多的不實推銷美容美髮產品，全省各地都發生，我們罰了2,500萬，或者是強迫推銷也是有第二十五條的問題，我們也做了相當多的處罰。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這樣，你是不是把哪些類型，然後處罰的情形，你們到底是罰了多少？需不需要修這條也必須要考量，是不是太輕？"],["李主任委員鎂：這一條其實最嚴重的譬如說聯合等等，在前面的條文裡面都有重罰，第二十五條這一條就是萬一前面的條文罰不到，但是還是有違反競爭的情形，我們用第二十五條，現在的處罰是5萬到2,500萬，其實這個罰則已經相當高，而且還可以連續處罰。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：第四十二條對於違反第二十五條，你們除了罰，是不是會跟移送刑事的部分同時一併處理？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要看這個行為有沒有涉及詐欺或是其他法令禁止的行為，會看這個案情來決定要不要移送，或者是由公平法來處罰。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以你們是擇一，還是兩者並行？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果涉及刑事，因為要由司法機關調查，就會移送給司法機關；如果是行政處罰的適用範圍，我們就會去處理，像剛才我講的這個……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以你們是擇一？"],["李主任委員鎂：應該說看它的性質、適用法律……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：如果依公平交易法第四十二條處罰，你們就不移送了，是嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果沒有涉及刑事行為是不會移送。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，請你們也提供到底移送了哪些類型，法院判決最後的結果會再告訴你們嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：法院的判決會跟我們……會處理……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：會告訴你們，是不是也提供資料？"],["李主任委員鎂：好的，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請邱志偉召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":844.05096875,"end":844.20284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.595,"end":29.982,"text":"謝謝主席有請國科會吳誠文主委有請吳主委各位人好主委好今天感謝召委安排專報的題目永續科研那AI其實是目前熱門的產業持續熱門那也是科學研究現在非常多的教授研究中心在做的題目那先前幾次的質詢我也就AI的發展還有各個面向跟您有進行探討"},{"start":31.062,"end":59.99,"text":"我想人類的發展AI一定會在其中扮演角色我們如果沒有辦法做好會影響到我們的存續他如果做得好也會幫助我們的存續所以這當然是一個永續的議題那配合這樣的一個議題有兩大重點人才的永續跟人員的永續就會是非常重要的課題首先來和主委談一下人才的永續行政院在9月5號剛剛公佈了這個五大信賴產業為什麼剛好也信賴這個我們改天再聊"},{"start":60.39,"end":88.537,"text":"但是人工智慧就是其中一項目標要成為全球AI影響力的中心從行政院的簡報我們也可以看到推動目標的第二項就是要培養AI的人才預計4年內要培養20萬名AI相關的人才請教一下主委培養20萬名AI人才的具體做法是什麼明年就會是第一年那要20萬的多少要培育"},{"start":90.356,"end":90.876,"text":"所以人數你們不用算啦?"},{"start":109.709,"end":127.096,"text":"我們人數的部分其實是包含科研的部分以及將來在產業產業有所謂的這個AI產業以及這個AI的應用的產業那應用端的所以20萬明年要多少萬有沒有數字有沒有規劃有沒有策略"},{"start":128.036,"end":148.556,"text":"這是明年才啟動的這個方案從明年開始算4年現在已經馬上要10月囉那現在不用規劃明年要多少萬人嗎我們不用OKR不用KPI嗎那我們就隨便喊一個20萬那我們要喊200萬20萬是包含到所以AI人才的培育和國會到底有沒有關係"},{"start":150.027,"end":170.567,"text":"當然有關係啊就是我講科研人才是國科會主政的所以我們會持續資助全國的大學以及研究機構進行AI相關的科技研發那我們翻開國科會預算書的第一頁國科會的年度施政目標當中包含辦理行政院科技顧問會議行政院"},{"start":171.748,"end":173.128,"text":"報告委員我還沒有機會去翻閱過去的記錄"},{"start":193.28,"end":214.386,"text":"現在已經您上任已經一段時間了我沒關係我幫你看其實相關的會議結論就有提到培育下個世代半導體及AI人才就是你們的結論策略方向第一結果20萬到底要培育多少名目前是沒有概念現在已經馬上要進入10月了"},{"start":215.026,"end":227.297,"text":"下一代半導體及AI人才如果是國會主政的部分就是科研人才那科研人才如果我們以碩士以上的那20萬裡面到底要佔多少"},{"start":228.939,"end":251.108,"text":"科研的人力不需要到非常的多 那非科研的人力呢?非科研的人力誰負責?我們行政院各部會 各部會都要負責 包含經濟部、數位發展部甚至衛福部、勞動部、農業部等等 我們各行各業都需要有AI應用的人力"},{"start":251.468,"end":251.928,"text":"教育部應該在裡面的"},{"start":275.88,"end":292.516,"text":"這個我想要跟主委同步一下培育人才的責任是人人有責沒錯啦您剛剛提的也對那國歌會做科研的人才但是科研的人才到底要如何培育更多的AI人才這個應該是要代代相傳一棒接一棒棒棒都是強棒嘛"},{"start":293.277,"end":310.348,"text":"我告訴主委您剛剛提到的很多的會議教育部都不是與會單位所以如果您有關心AI人才的議題包含台灣競爭力的永續國科會如果認為AI人才的培育教育部也有責任那國科會是不是有轉資會議的結論給教育部的責任呢?"},{"start":311.989,"end":332.442,"text":"在後續的工作會議裡面是不是有邀請教育部來參與這些請主委會後能不能與相關業務單位來進行檢討到底我們4年20萬的AI人才要如何而來到底明年到底會有多少名不然的話我們這個數字就亂喊嘛我喊20萬也可以我喊2萬也可以我喊200萬也可以啊是吧"},{"start":333.063,"end":347.966,"text":"我們這個人才培育逐年目標我們會把它規劃出來那我們的確跟教育部有持續定期的溝通我們的陳秉林副主委跟教育部的葉秉成次長其實是有固定溝通的平台"},{"start":348.166,"end":349.887,"text":"台灣人才赤字在國內是非常令人擔憂美國在來協會剛發布人才循環大聯盟的白皮書其中依舊寫著"},{"start":368.837,"end":384.744,"text":"人才是台灣轉型創新經濟體的基礎培育人才是我們發展的基石國家競爭力的根本他寫得很委婉但是我要再次提醒2015年我們就已經被評定2021年的人才供需落差可能會到負1.5%"},{"start":387.066,"end":408.701,"text":"29月27日及28日我們才剛辦理了台灣的AI的一個非常重要的年會其中才不斷的被討論我們AI人才的缺口年增7%注意這是缺口的成長率喔不是人才的成長率喔這些數字您如果看到了AI人才培育難道不會是國會重要的責任嗎我們再來給你看一下這個7%我們剛剛提過根據省紀部最新的決算報告"},{"start":417.927,"end":438.28,"text":"從110年到112年每年編列近20億元去執行機構研覽優秀的人才跟研究學者其中178位博士級的研究人員連續接受補助10次到20次但是隨著計畫的結束我們發現這些人並沒有投入產業或投入學界"},{"start":438.74,"end":464.389,"text":"比例非常的低甚至沒有在研究機構裡頭轉正變成他們自己自嘲說是短期打公仔我說十次二次的補助盒已經變長期打公仔你的人才永續會永續到這裡來我們認為國科會不僅沒有扮演好人才搖籃角色會不會變成人才黑洞啊博士進來就出不去了我想請教一下主委國科會有沒有一些理解有沒有改進的措施如何活絡"},{"start":465.903,"end":491.071,"text":"國會的確也看到這樣的問題很謝謝委員再次提醒我們接下來夏年度的計畫已經有做一些調整調整就是說要擴散我們AI的應用這些博士生他已經拿了10次、20次、22次的補助了他們既沒有進學員機構也沒有進到中研院也沒有進到其他的地方"},{"start":493.552,"end":514.778,"text":"所以我們要發展產業發展產業讓大家有更多機會能夠做自主的創新系統的開發但您都要說要做的是科研人才啊您是要做產業還是要做科研人才委員希望國科會也協助產業發展嘛所以我們培養的人才希望我們編科技預算我關注這些博士級的人才到底要去哪裡"},{"start":515.538,"end":516.779,"text":"但是人才有些適合產業發展 有些適合在學界發展"},{"start":544.758,"end":562.469,"text":"那他們也沒去學界也沒去產業我們剛剛提的是這些人啊那他們去哪裡繼續停在那裡嗎我剛剛講就是產業發展需要的人才會比較多所以我們要從產業發展所以我們產業發展的不好現在在應用面還不過所以科研人才沒有出入是產業發展的不好"},{"start":563.129,"end":563.87,"text":"AI產業是由國科會主導"},{"start":578.629,"end":601.119,"text":"AI基本法也是您先提出預告版本所以我希望可不可以由國科會邀請教育部中研院等相關單位進行研議提出具體的有策略的解決方案而不是只是開會跟會議結論而已能不能請國科會6個月內將研議結果以書面回覆給本席6個月真的有點太長了AI已經不知道發展到哪裡去了可不可以"},{"start":601.539,"end":628.208,"text":"不要6個月啦,我們年底就有因為我們跟這幾個部會都已經討論方案好,早一點讓我們知道啦不然我們都不知道這20萬是怎麼含的接下來還是要跟主委談一下能源永續啦因為沒有能源怎麼會有AI想請教一下核能是不是靈探是不是近靈的計畫當中的一個做法這個不是我能判斷的不是你能判斷的,你需不需要知道我剛委員報告"},{"start":629.4,"end":642.679,"text":"我們支持科研科研的這個核能不是競技詞好不好我直接幫你講出來COVID-192822國都說核能在2050年以前要增加兩到三倍"},{"start":643.615,"end":662.07,"text":"我本來就提過只要是能夠確保安全那避免民眾的疑慮我任何的能源的研究我們都會支持好很好請教主委國務院是不是認為SMR是一個值得研究的議題小型模組化核反應器"},{"start":662.771,"end":682.776,"text":"我們的學研的這個計畫學界提出任何能源的這個研究方向我們都會尊重值得值得不值得對值得嘛齁您如果認為SMR值得研究但你知道113年度國科會投入多少的研究經費來補助做SMR的科研嗎110萬新台幣啦"},{"start":688.795,"end":712.88,"text":"我是客氣一點啦,連信義區一間廁所都買不起啊主委您知道世界各國投入多少預算在做研究嗎?我們並沒有防堵任何的這種計畫只要學界願意提出...那我們現在鼓勵多元能源科技的研究,我們是鼓勵的那你鼓不鼓勵SMR的研究?"},{"start":713.874,"end":741.156,"text":"主要審查我們都是學界公開審查這個審查如果大家覺得這個研究是有機會能夠對人類社會有貢獻我們當然會支持所以我幫您回顧一下在2022年您當時是工研院的首席技術專家您的建議SMR應該要納入思考範疇才能夠兼顧企業競爭力跟環保政策換了位置應該沒有換了腦袋您的看法是不是還是相同"},{"start":744.206,"end":768.956,"text":"我是鼓勵啊我鼓勵任何的能源的研究啊所以是不是鼓勵sm啊主要是想法是一致的主要提出具體的好的這個計劃通過審查我們都一定會同意的這個我想世界為了成立這個淨零碳排的目標其實全世界的人都在推動相關的"},{"start":770.316,"end":774.18,"text":"他甚至也說了要降低科技的成本AI跟能源而最佳的解決方式就是SMR跟您的看法相同"},{"start":807.653,"end":819.081,"text":"甲骨文還要做更多的三座小型核電廠的建造他都要拿到了目前新建中的全世界各國也都還有到底我們要不要發展SM嗎?"},{"start":820.642,"end":833.868,"text":"主委是不是後續再跟葛委員報告我希望國會早日克服心魔能夠提高我們對於能源充足AI研發人才的議題謝謝主委請回謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢再請吳佩奕委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:44:21 - 10:58:26","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"154971","gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時44分）謝謝主席。有請國科會吳誠文主委。"],["主席：好，有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委好。今天感謝召委安排專報的題目─永續科研，AI其實是目前熱門的產業，持續熱門，也是科學研究現在非常多的教授、研究中心在做的題目，先前幾次的質詢，我也就AI的發展還有各個面向有跟您進行探討，我想人類的發展，AI一定會在其中扮演角色，我們如果沒有辦法做好，會影響到我們的存續，它如果做得好，也會幫助我們的存續，所以這當然是一個永續的議題，配合這樣的議題有兩大重點，人才的永續跟能源的永續就會是非常重要的課題。首先和主委談一下人才的永續，行政院在9月5日剛剛公布了五大信賴產業，為什麼剛好也姓賴我們改天再聊，但是人工智慧就是其中一項目標，要成為全球AI影響力的中心。從行政院的簡報，我們也可以看到推動目標的第二項就是要培養AI的人才，預計4年內要培養20萬名AI相關的人才。請教一下主委，培養20萬名AI人才的具體作法是什麼？明年就是第一年，20萬的多少要培育？"],["吳主任委員誠文：行政院規劃的這個人才培育目標是國發會主政，而國科會這邊，當然我們培養的是科研的人才，以及我們在學校因為資助大學做科研，所培養的相關產業的人才都是……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以人數你們不用算？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們人數的部分其實是包含科研的部分，以及將來在產業，產業有所謂的AI產業，以及AI的應用的產業，那麼應用端……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以20萬人才，明年要多少萬？有沒有數字、有沒有規劃、有沒有策略？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是明年才啟動的方案，從明年開始算4年……"],["葛委員如鈞：現在已經馬上要10月了，不用規劃明年要多少萬人嗎？我們不用OKR，也不用KPI嗎？我們就隨便喊一個20萬？那我們要不要喊200萬、2,000萬？"],["吳主任委員誠文：20萬是包含到……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以AI人才的培育和國科會到底有沒有關係？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，當然有關係啊！就是我講的，科研人才是國發會主政的，所以我們會持續資助全國的大學以及研究機構進行AI相關的科技研發。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們翻開國科會預算書的第1頁，國科會的年度施政目標，當中包含辦理行政院科技顧問會議，行政院主辦這個會議，由國科會來主導，會議的目的本來就是對未來10到20年的科技發展要提供建言。想請問一下主委，您接任政委後，有沒有去翻閱一下當時行政院科技顧問會議的會議紀錄？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我還沒有機會去翻閱過去的紀錄。"],["葛委員如鈞：您上任已經一段時間了，那沒關係，我幫你看。其實相關的會議結論就有提到培育下個世代半導體以及AI人才，就是你們的結論嘛！策略方向第一，結果20萬到底要培育多少名，目前是沒有概念，現在已經快要進入10月了！"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，下世代半導體及AI人才如果是國科會主政的部分，就是科研人才……"],["葛委員如鈞：科研人才？"],["吳主任委員誠文：科研人才如果我們以碩士以上的……"],["葛委員如鈞：20萬裡面到底要占多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：科研的人力不需要到非常的多……"],["葛委員如鈞：非科研的人力呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：非科研的人力……"],["葛委員如鈞：誰要負責？非科研的人力誰負責？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們行政院各部會都要負責……"],["葛委員如鈞：什麼部會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：包含經濟部、數位發展部，甚至衛福部、勞動部、農業部等等，我們各行各業都需要有AI應用的人力。"],["葛委員如鈞：講到人才不需要教育部嗎？台下就有我的老師啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：對不起，教育部也要。"],["葛委員如鈞：但是我們其實有看到在這樣的一個會議當中，相關的產業會議裡面，有國科會、經濟部、數發部跟國發會共同推動，但是裡面竟然沒有教育部，主委有沒有發現？"],["吳主任委員誠文：教育部應該在裡面的。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想要跟主委同步一下，培育人才的責任是人人有責沒錯啦！你剛剛提的也對，國科會做科研的人才，但是科研的人才到底要如何培育更多的AI人才，這個應該是要代代相傳，一棒接一棒，棒棒都是強棒嘛！我告訴主委，您剛剛提到的，很多的會議，教育部都不是與會單位，所以如果您有關心AI人才的議題，包含臺灣競爭力的永續，國科會如果認為AI人才的培育，教育部也有責任，國科會是不是有轉知會議的結論給教育部的責任呢？在後續的工作會議裡面，是不是有邀請教育部來參與？這些請主委會後能不能與相關業務單位來進行檢討，到底我們4年20萬的AI人才要如何而來？到底明年到底會有多少名？不然的話，我們這個數字就亂喊嘛！我喊20萬也可以，我喊2萬也可以，我喊200萬也可以啊！是吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，人才培育逐年目標，我們會把它規劃出來。我們的確跟教育部有持續定期的溝通，我們的陳炳宇副主委跟教育部的葉丙成次長其實是有固定溝通的平臺……"],["葛委員如鈞：分進合擊啊！這個固定的溝通也讓我們瞭解，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：否則我們會覺得這個人才培育的數字也不清楚，計畫也不清楚，教育部跟國科會合作到底在其中扮演什麼角色，我們是沒有看到的。","臺灣人才赤字在國內是非常令人擔憂，美國在台協會剛發布人才循環大聯盟的白皮書，其中一就寫著，人才是臺灣轉型創新經濟體的基礎，培育人才是我們發展的基石、國家競爭力的根本。它寫得很委婉，但是我要再次提醒，2015年我們就已經被評定，2021年的人才供需落差可能會到-1.5%，9月27日、28日我們才剛辦理臺灣AI一個非常重要的年會，其中才不斷地被討論我們AI人才的缺口年增7%。注意！這是缺口的成長率，不是人才的成長率喔！這些數字您如果看到了，AI人才培育難道不會是國科會重要的責任嗎？","我們再來給你看一下。這個7%我們剛剛提過了。根據審計部最新的決算報告，國科會從110年到112年每年編列近20億元去執行機構延攬優秀人才及研究學者，其中178位博士級的研究人員連續接受補助10次到22次，但是隨著計畫的結束，我們發現這些人並沒有投入產業或投入學界，比例非常的低，甚至沒有在研究機構裡頭轉正，變成他們自己自嘲說是短期打工仔，我說10次到22次的補助可能已經變長期打工仔，你的人才永續會永續到這裡來，我們認為國科會不僅沒有扮演好人才搖籃的角色，會不會變成人才黑洞？博士進來就出不去了。","我想請教一下主委，國科會有沒有一些理解，有沒有改進的措施，如何活絡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會的確也看到這個問題，很謝謝委員再次提醒，我們接下來下年度的這個計畫已經有做一些調整，調整就是要擴散我們AI的應用，所以我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：這些博士生已經拿了10次到22次的補助了，他們既沒有進學研機構，也沒有進到中研院，也沒有進到其他的地方，這些就一直停在這個中間嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們要發展產業，發展產業讓大家有更多機會能夠做自主創新系統的開發，而且……"],["葛委員如鈞：但您剛剛說要做的是科研人才，你們是要做產業，還是要做科研人才？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員希望國科會也協助產業發展，所以我們培養的人才……"],["葛委員如鈞：我關注這些博士級的人才到底要去哪裡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在學界這個教師的員額本來就不會再成長，我們的人口結構在變化，所以一定要往產業發展，美國也是這個樣子……"],["葛委員如鈞：我跟主委交流一下。第一、教育現場說，目前聘不到教師；中研院也有跟我們交流，回復說中研院還有人員的編列名額，沒有聘滿。跟您說的是不一致的喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是人才有些適合產業發展，有些適合在學界發展……"],["葛委員如鈞：他們也沒去學界，也沒去產業，我們剛剛提的是這些人啊！他們去哪裡？繼續停在那裡嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我剛剛講的就是產業發展需要的人才會比較多，所以我們要從產業發展……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們產業發展得不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在在應用面還不夠……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以科研人才沒有出路是產業發展得不好，這樣是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是其中一個原因……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有關係，主委……"],["吳主任委員誠文：或者我們大學培養的科研人力素質還沒有到自己……"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，AI產業是由國科會主導，AI基本法也是您先提出預告版本，所以我希望可不可以由國科會邀集教育部、中研院等相關單位進行研議，提出具體的、有策略的解決方案？而不是只是開會與會議結論而已，能不能請國科會於6個月內將研議結果以書面回復給本席？6個月真的有點太長了，AI已經不知道發展到哪裡去了，可不可以？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不用6個月，我們年底就有，因為我們跟這幾個部會都已經討論方案，已經有了……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，早一點讓我們知道……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是、是、是。"],["葛委員如鈞：不然，我們都不知道這20萬是怎麼喊的。","接下來還是要跟主委談一下能源永續，因為沒有能源，怎麼會有AI？想請教一下，核能是不是零碳，是不是淨零計畫當中的一個作法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個不是我能判斷的……"],["葛委員如鈞：不是你能判斷的？你須不須要知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟委員報告，我們支持科研，科研的這個項目……"],["葛委員如鈞：核能不是禁忌詞，好不好？我直接幫你講出來，COP28共22國都說核能在2050年以前要增加2到3倍……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我本來就提過……"],["葛委員如鈞：它是零碳的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我本來就提過，只要是能夠確保安全，避免民眾的疑慮，任何能源的研究，我們都會支持。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，很好！請教主委，國科會是不是認為SMR（小型模組化核反應器）是一個值得研究的議題？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們學研的這個計畫，學界提出任何能源的研究方向，我們都會尊重……"],["葛委員如鈞：值得？值得不值得？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們都會支持，對。"],["葛委員如鈞：值得嘛！您如果認為SMR值得研究，但你知道113年度國科會投入多少的研究經費來補助做SMR的科研嗎？110萬新臺幣！我是客氣一點，連信義區一間廁所都買不起啊！主委，您知道世界各國投入多少預算在做研究嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可是我們並沒有防堵任何的這種計畫，只要學界願意提出……"],["葛委員如鈞：那有沒有鼓勵？要不要鼓勵？我們不是要淨零嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們鼓勵啊！我們現在鼓勵多元能源科技的研究，我們是鼓勵的，只要……"],["葛委員如鈞：那您鼓不鼓勵SMR的研究？"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要審查，我們都是學界公開審查，這個審查如果大家覺得這個研究是有機會能夠對人類社會有貢獻，我們當然會支持。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，所以我幫您回顧一下，在2022年，您當時是工研院的首席技術專家，您的建議是SMR應該要納入思考範疇，才能夠兼顧企業競爭力及環保政策。換了位置應該沒有換了腦袋，您的看法是不是還是相同？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我是鼓勵啊！我鼓勵任何能源的研究，所以……"],["葛委員如鈞：是不是鼓勵SMR？"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要提……"],["葛委員如鈞：是不是想法是一致的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要提出具體的、好的這個計畫，通過審查，我們都一定會同意的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好啦！我想世界為了成就淨零碳排的目標，其實全世界的人都在推動相關更多的能源、更充足的能源，OpenAI的執行長Sam Altman擔任董事長，還不只是核融合，還有核能新創公司──Oklo，就是做SMR的，他甚至也說，要降低科技的成本──AI及能源，而最佳的解決方式就是SMR。跟您的看法相同，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：任何新的核能技術，只要能夠確保安全，對人類社會有益，去除民眾的疑慮，我們都會支持。"],["葛委員如鈞：甲骨文還要做更多的，3座小型核電廠的建照，它都要拿到了，目前興建中的全世界各國也都還有……"],["主席：葛委員，已經超過30秒了。"],["葛委員如鈞：到底我們要不要發展SMR？"],["主席：主委，是不是後續再跟葛委員報告，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，有了，我們有約時間。"],["主席：因為時間已經超過了。"],["葛委員如鈞：好啦！我希望國科會早日克服心魔，能夠提高我們對於能源充足、AI研發人才的這個議題，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，你們再後續。主委，請回，謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢。","再來，請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:13:04","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:57:44+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154970","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","duration":784,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:44:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b9ff4267c4169fc86675162b30ff93f65d67042be656cc2aacd6849d3fc6a78aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":5.9372187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":7.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.87784375,"end":10.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.21096875,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.88159375,"end":11.759093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.332843750000002,"end":13.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.459093750000001,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.28534375,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.27096875,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.56971875,"end":36.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.93659375,"end":39.282218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.74221875,"end":41.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.41284375,"end":55.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.51159375,"end":59.549093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.00471875,"end":61.30409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.30409375000001,"end":61.72596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.79346875,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.59971875000001,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.72909375,"end":129.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.32284375,"end":165.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.35096875000002,"end":187.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.27159375000002,"end":190.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.43159375000002,"end":191.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.05159375000002,"end":192.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.37596875,"end":202.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.39596875,"end":214.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.52909375000002,"end":216.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.79034375,"end":217.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.02221875,"end":237.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.91784375,"end":255.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.94034375,"end":258.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.80909375,"end":266.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.51659375,"end":278.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.46409375,"end":284.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.56034375,"end":285.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.90596875,"end":290.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.35721875,"end":290.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.68596875000003,"end":291.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.39471875000004,"end":302.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.39284375,"end":314.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.66534375000003,"end":330.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.37159375000005,"end":345.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.83346875,"end":350.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.95909375,"end":428.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.24659375000005,"end":432.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.38534375,"end":438.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.81471875000005,"end":439.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.36721875,"end":454.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.43659375000004,"end":471.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.20221875000004,"end":470.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.46346875,"end":476.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.83409375,"end":485.89596875},{"speaker":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經濟有成增加了2.07所以民間的薪資跟基本的工資也正向的成長所以在這些條件之下我們願意用國家的預算讓軍公教的待遇來調整全民共享經濟發展的紅利"},{"start":405.928,"end":428.011,"text":"我以這一頁我要說的就是現行的機制是一個員工待遇的審議委員會未來要改良要擴編我也樂觀其成但是所有的指標都應當回到一個理性可行的方案我希望未來納入你們法制化的研議真的不需要因為"},{"start":429.312,"end":448.899,"text":"政治的壓力為快而快我很擔心制度要讓他非常的嚴謹跟完整這是我的提醒當然我也要呼籲當我們在野黨的委員這麼大聲疾呼的要照顧軍公教的待遇要求將條新法制化的同時就應當想想現在222億還被擋住"},{"start":455.541,"end":456.702,"text":"您同意我的觀點吧?我們繼續強化遊說好嗎?"},{"start":472.863,"end":494.962,"text":"所以您站在這裡應該心情很複雜啦一方面委員都逼你趕快把調新的法制化端出來可是另一方面委員都不願意幫你一把趕快把調新的馬上現主席可以花的3%花下去嘛所以您當是百味雜陳我們繼續加油好嗎來下一頁"},{"start":499.744,"end":528.383,"text":"我長期在倡議的公務體系的心理價我們希望在現有的10種價別之外來增加一個心理價而我也多次論述心理價不是只有放假本身他是一個在EAP的方案之外能夠讓我們接住心靈健康需要我們關懷的公務同仁下一頁"},{"start":529.464,"end":546.063,"text":"那也謝謝您您正面的回應我您個人支持人事總處會努力來推進但是在你們4月跟全序部合開的研商公務人員請假規則的這個會議上是不是全序部有不同的意見對不對"},{"start":547.284,"end":570.157,"text":"我這裡要說明一下我在3月6號事實上我是完全支持委員的想法因為目前很多公務同仁都會有心理上的障礙有時候是顯性有時候是隱性的那這些人事實上也是被需要照顧的疫情而且是在我們所謂的EAP的範疇裡面"},{"start":572.418,"end":573.558,"text":"這就是我下面要來說的下一頁"},{"start":597.885,"end":604.229,"text":"在這場會議上全序部的意見說公務員請假會影響服務民眾的品質我想這個理由"},{"start":608.744,"end":613.906,"text":"請假是公務同仁的權利一個運作良好的政府也不應當因為公務員某人請假而影響服務民眾的品質所以他並不成立"},{"start":629.554,"end":655.993,"text":"循序部的意見就您剛講也是我最在意的循序部的同仁居然還認為心理架式有標籤化的疑慮怕被濫請或者是該請的人不敢請這就是我們要推動我們要突破的困境不要讓心理健康調適架成為一個被汙名化被妖魔化被不健康的認知這就是我要挑戰的"},{"start":657.656,"end":678.722,"text":"來下一頁下一頁下一頁我很快的再給您信心我去年質詢您的時候那個時候有43所46所大學已經有心理假其實早在吳思瑤開始默默的很寂寞的在立法院優先倡議一開始只有2022年兩校2023年15校到今年已經成長到126校下一頁"},{"start":686.758,"end":699.784,"text":"教育部也跟上來向下延伸至高中值就是今年8月已經全面教育部大突破也都有全方位的學生身心調適假下一頁"},{"start":702.233,"end":730.519,"text":"蔡總統推動的五大健康行動方案年輕族群的心理健康支持方案也擴大到下一頁賴清德總統在健康台灣裡頭從原本15到30歲的心理諮商再擴大到15到45歲每年三次我們預算變更多就是我們面對在現在高壓的生活社會樣態之下心理健康需要國家的支持下一頁"},{"start":731.679,"end":755.129,"text":"所以我希望我們不要放棄不要放棄心理架不是只有放不放架本身它對於我們我下一次會跟您探討EAP我們台灣公務體系的EAP做得夠不夠到位如果都到位如果也許心理架可以放到後面但如果EAP不夠到位"},{"start":756.704,"end":777.857,"text":"那我認為心理價就不應當因為一次的會議被打回票之後我們就放棄努力就像我們的國家政府總預算案一次被退我們不會放棄繼續遊說是一樣的我們要擴大照顧公務同仁的心理健康我們持續來努力好嗎好辛苦了謝謝謝謝主席謝謝思瑤幹事長謝謝蘇委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:44:40 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10:57:44","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154970","gazette":{"lineno":614,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時44分）謝謝主席，有請人事長。"],["主席：有請蘇人事長。"],["吳委員思瑤：也請主席早日康復。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝人事長，早安。今天有兩個主題要就教於您，您服務公職有非常久的時間，我特別知道您好像從財政部、考試院、研考會，然後一路到人事總處來服務，大概也有幾十年的時間，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：三十幾年。"],["吳委員思瑤：有三十多年，所以您是我們這個……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我是常任文官轉的。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，在公務體系真的是元老級的前輩。在您擔任公務體系的期間，不論是在哪一個部會單位，有曾經發生過總預算案被擋下來的經驗嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：印象中好像是沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：印象中沒有？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：甚至有人說，2008年民進黨有擋下，但事實上就沒有嘛！2008年的時候民進黨只有27席，不會也不可能擋下中央政府總預算案，而今年我們碰到的挑戰是，不只是院會被擋下退回程委會，現在是連程序委員會也是史上第一次破天荒，國家政府總預算案這個關乎人民的福祉、關乎國家的建設，連程序委員會第一關排案掛號的權力都被剝奪了。當中的新興計畫就高達兩千餘億不能辦理，這是新興計畫跟新增預算的部分。在您主管的部會裡頭，影響最大的是哪一條？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們明年要調薪調3%，總共要272億，如果沒過的話，明年那就沒辦法……"],["吳委員思瑤：就沒辦法了嘛！所以，在您公務體系三十多年的經驗，這是第一次發生這樣的狀況。其實中央編列的是222億，包括122億是中央支付、90億是補助地方縣市政府，10億是補助鄉鎮市政府，所以加起來是222億。如果說連同調薪能夠發放，各縣市政府另外有一個50億的配合補助，換言之，就如您剛剛講的，是272億，但是跟中央政府總預算案相關的是222億，我也覺得非常遺憾。","這個週末教師節剛過，我看到不分黨派的立委，尤其在野黨的委員，大家也都在臉書社群上po出祝福老師教師節快樂，我們爭取老師的福祉會越做越多，結果擋下了軍公教，包括老師3%調薪的方案。您現在做了什麼努力呢？這麼大條，要怎麼辦？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我就是心裡默默期待可以趕快進入到實質的預算審查。"],["吳委員思瑤：其實人事長，您是非常有經驗，我知道你這段時間也不斷地去穿梭各黨的委員辦公室，就是要讓各黨的委員都知道，不要為了對抗不同政黨之間的不同意見，而造成服務國家的軍公教人員的權益受到傷害。","我剛剛看到好多委員都要求你們趕快把軍公教調薪的法制化提出來，很多委員還說，因為要法制化才可以確保擴大照顧公務體系，因為要法制化才可以避免公務人員調薪成為看長官臉色，或者是一種恩給的制度。其實我要挑戰這種說法，一個國家要照顧我們公務體系的同仁們，有很多要審酌的條件、狀況，它不會是看誰的臉色，也不會是恩給式。我相信蔡英文總統、賴清德總統連四調，而且今年是首度，也是史上第一次，連續兩年都調。應當是史上第一次吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是25年來第一次，已經等了25年。"],["吳委員思瑤：25年來第一次嘛！所以就像馬英九執政調了一次，only one，2011年只調一次，我們也不會說馬英九不給公務體系好臉色看啊！所以回到制度，現在已經有一個設置要點，也就是我們組成的審議委員會有一個設置要點，已經有可以參採，已經相對有一套制度了，未來是不是要法制化，我尊重你們的研議，因為它的面向非常地廣，要參酌的指標、指數非常地多，我個人也認為不需要為快而快，現在沒有委員所說的要法制化才能調薪，並沒有嘛。目前沒有法制化，可是經濟發展有成果，稅課收入有成長，我們就想方設法來照顧公務同仁，不是嗎？不需要為快而快，應當要周詳地研議，這是我的立場。","就像我說的，這幾年來軍公教員工有待遇審議委員會的要點可以參採，今年調薪當然就看到你們7月18日的審議結果，很具體地，如同我說的，它必須符合各項財經的指標是正向的發展。因為政府拚經濟有成，今年（113年）經濟成長率達到3.94%，較去年增加2.66個百分點；然後預估消費者物價指數的年增率也因為拚經濟有成，增加了2.07%，民間的薪資及基本工資也正向地成長。所以在這些條件之下，我們願意用國家的預算讓軍公教的待遇調整，全民共享經濟發展的紅利。","我要說的就是，現行的機制是一個員工待遇的審議委員會，未來要改良、擴編，我也樂觀其成，但是所有的指標都應當回到理性、可行的方案，我希望未來納入你們法制化的研議，真的不需要因為政治的壓力為快而快，我很擔心。制度要讓它非常地嚴謹及完整，這是我的提醒。","當然，我也要呼籲，當在野黨的委員這麼大聲疾呼地要照顧軍公教的待遇、要求將調薪法制化的同時，就應當想想，現在222億還被擋住，照顧軍公教不需要捨近求遠，趕快讓預算能夠進入審查，這才是照顧軍公教待遇的具體行動，您同意我的觀點吧？我們繼續強化遊說，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：非常同意，因為很多公務同仁也都在等這樣的一個……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以您站在這裡應該心情很複雜，一方面委員都逼你趕快把調薪的法制化端出來，可是另一方面委員都不願意幫你一把，趕快把調薪、馬上就可以發的3%發下去嘛！所以您應當是百味雜陳，我們繼續加油，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：我長期在倡議公務體系的心理假，我們希望在現有的10種假別之外增加心理假，而我也多次論述，心理假不是只有放假本身，它是一個在EAP的方案之外，能夠讓我們接住心靈健康需要我們關懷的公務同仁。也謝謝您正面地回應我您個人支持、人事總處會努力來推進，但是你們在4月跟銓敘部合開的研商公務人員請假規則的會議上，是不是銓敘部有不同的意見？對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡要說明一下，我在3月6日事實上是完全支持委員的想法，因為目前很多公務同仁都會有心理上的障礙，有時候是顯性的，有時候是隱性的，這些人事實上也是需要被照顧的一群，而且是在所謂的EAP的範疇裡面。特別identify出這個心理假，我個人是認同的，可是在4月1日我們有參與……"],["吳委員思瑤：的會議上。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：會議上，事實上也不是銓敘部反對，因為來參加的22個縣市及相關機關，他們對於一些……"],["吳委員思瑤：處理的機制。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：心理假會不會有被標籤化的問題，他們還有一些疑慮。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，這就是我下面要說的。在這場會議上，銓敘部的意見是，公務員請假會影響服務民眾的品質，我想這個理由……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得可能這是有誤解……"],["吳委員思瑤：這是有誤解嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為我們公務員可以請休假、請病假，還有事假，都可以……"],["吳委員思瑤：對，請假是公務同仁的權利，一個運作良好的政府，也不應當因為公務員某人請假而影響服務民眾的品質，所以它並不成立。銓敘部的意見就是您剛剛講的，也是我最在意的，銓敘部的同仁居然還認為心理假有標籤化的疑慮，怕被濫請，或者是該請的人不敢請，這就是我們要推動、突破的困境，不要讓心理健康調適假成為被污名化、被妖魔化、不健康的認知，這就是我要挑戰的。","我很快地再給您信心。我去年質詢您的時候，有46所大學已經有心理假，其實早在吳思瑤開始默默地、很寂寞地在立法院優先倡議，一開始只有2022年2校、2023年15校，到今年已經成長到126校；教育部也跟上來，向下延伸至高中職，今年8月已經全面、教育部大突破，也都有全方位的學生身心調適假。蔡總統推動了五大健康行動方案、年輕族群的心理健康支持方案；賴清德總統在健康臺灣裡頭從原本15到30歲的心理諮詢，再擴大到15到45歲、每年3次，預算編更多，就是因為我們面對現在的高壓生活社會樣態之下，心理健康需要國家的支持。","所以我希望我們不要放棄，不要放棄！心理假不是只有放不放假本身，它對於我們……我下一次會跟您探討EAP、我們臺灣公務體系的EAP做得夠不夠到位？如果都到位，也許心理假可以放到後面；但如果EAP不夠到位，我認為心理假就不應當因為一次的會議被打回票之後，我們就放棄努力，就像我們國家政府總預算案一次被退，我們不會放棄繼續遊說是一樣的，我們要擴大照顧公務同仁的心理健康，我們持續來努力，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：辛苦了，謝謝！謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝思瑤幹事長，謝謝蘇人事長。","接下來請陳委員俊宇質詢，陳委員質詢完畢後，我們休息5分鐘，也跟吳召委報告一下。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","林思銘","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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不到半年就準備換裡面最重要的一個部分那我在看到這個新聞我相信你應該也"},{"start":119.497,"end":119.677,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":135.114,"end":136.055,"text":"民眾的想法你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":164.031,"end":165.772,"text":"你對這個案子的了解程度如何"},{"start":180.862,"end":200.533,"text":"那這個變更我想政府採購法有一定的條件必須滿足這個條件而且是他的這個機關就辦理機關應該是淘氣公司辦理機關的同意才可以那我想我能夠理解的就是政府採購法這一方面比較有嚴格的規定"},{"start":201.889,"end":230.61,"text":"好那這個東西不是蓋房子也簡單來講我們今天在談的一個標案如果說做個公園換個水電廠商我們知道太多人會了不敢講說幾十萬個只要幾萬個合格包商而且國家都把它分好了甚至建築你是甲級什麼級的一金二儲隨便找都有嘛可是我們在談的是我覺得現在工程會你們真的要注意很多新的"},{"start":232.773,"end":251.173,"text":"新的願景新的目標就擺明說今天我要換或者換不換市場上沒有幾個人會的這種東西那你要換廠商跟一般的工程換廠商是完全兩碼事喔我必須要講這新的東西為什麼大家擔心擔心的原因是說"},{"start":252.074,"end":252.775,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":269.053,"end":295.98,"text":"是所有的軌道像這樣的一個靈魂所以他今天要換的是系統廠商就簡單來講我們在招標的過程來的廠商一組一組講的滿嘴泡沫經驗多少歷練多少你們放心交給我我系統廠商怎麼樣多強多棒弄完之後百分之百滿意不光是快速安全講的整片"},{"start":297.401,"end":318.323,"text":"那人家三個團隊啊 終於覺得青睞你了嘛 因為你說的比較好 我青睞你 而且中間是系統廠商的優勢是最重要的系統廠商到底可以做什麼樣的一個部分 安全怎麼樣 講得特別多 那你跟一個做車體的 現在主標的廠商是主要做車體的"},{"start":319.204,"end":319.224,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":329.335,"end":352.12,"text":"你這個東西不是說合不合法令的問題是說我的天啊我們精挑細選在我們採購法在工程會的一個領域我們設計的制度設計到底出了問題沒有我們花這麼大精力上網招標也寫了這麼多的說明服務建議書然後請了這麼多的專家學者難道失靈了嗎"},{"start":353.32,"end":357.824,"text":"主委其實這種新科技的產品我覺得它嚴重程度尤其這種公共運輸我覺得你覺得像這樣的做法"},{"start":373.476,"end":374.197,"text":"委員會主任委員會主管"},{"start":394.356,"end":419.867,"text":"針對這個案要求淘機公司來說明原因具體的去了解有沒有符合政府採購法他得以更換分包廠商的這樣的條件或者是會不會影響到剛才委員所說的影響到整個將來營運的品質因為系統廠商出問題就表示你當時提的proposal你當時服務介意書有關系統的部分其實有一部分"},{"start":420.307,"end":445.016,"text":"都不是真的因為廠商都換人了還要第二個來驗證你的服務建議書我們要按照服務建議書來履約那他到底是不是真的不是我寫的我跟你講這真的是一團亂但是我在這裡鄭重拜託就像T3一樣這個問題不亞於T3行下的一個建築我希望你不光是監督我希望以你們的專業去幫忙好不好去幫忙他們要來去解決這個複雜的問題為什麼呢服務建議書假設"},{"start":448.837,"end":474.53,"text":"是他的分包廠商在法院都有公證的他不讓他不讓然後咧你下一家要來那好你不要按照我的服務建議書這是我的喔我的know how這中間後面的一些問題第一個你會變成一個尷尬的問題T3硬體終於完工了中間串接的運輸體系差時間差很多所以這個部分我要拜託你介入一下好不好好幫忙一下那第二個因為時間的關係喔"},{"start":477.093,"end":477.373,"text":"李立立委員"},{"start":496.314,"end":497.595,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":517.133,"end":541.338,"text":"想一想好吧既然是實驗嘛國家總是要實驗可是這幾年看到2021年他已經進入台鐵了因為沒有人管啊我研究不出來不成功so what不重要啊我政府的錢照領啊當你一些委託或者試行這個案件我就算了你到2021開始介入台鐵台鐵多元通信的這個行控4.0啊"},{"start":542.458,"end":569.558,"text":"坦白講很多的交通專業的外面的學者都嚇到結果他當時說我們台灣要創新全世界第一唯一自己的一個行控安全系統發生兩次大車禍有人這樣說理論上聽起來是好事可是你的廠商呢他說我在美國某一個城市做過了這個相關的自駕什麼一個系統結果我們通過了"},{"start":570.999,"end":600.094,"text":"運安會去查我們透過了外交部去查甚至有委員直接寫給那個城市查無此事查無此公司在台灣耀武揚威東騙西騙上了一大堆的節目好這個部分本來2021年行共4.0這只是初步的計畫也是找一貫鐵路來跑跑看花了5600多萬然後事實上後面還有非常大的計畫就被叫停了叫停了"},{"start":600.774,"end":612.394,"text":"今年的4月2號我們的這個運安會說他說實話他這個根本不可行啊這根本不能用啊講得很難聽啊所以我的問題點是說"},{"start":615.458,"end":642.301,"text":"我們的政府就算是財力很好也不能這樣的玩啊不能這樣玩他弄完之後沒事啊該領的錢走了那我們就發覺現在因為沒事嘛我就賺5600扣掉成本我就賺嘛系統software比較看不太到嘛所以我就賺了嘛那接下來賺哪一條呢就賺機場三行價PMS自家系統嘛我再來賺一條嘛對不對"},{"start":644.002,"end":644.102,"text":"主席"},{"start":660.049,"end":676.615,"text":"我希望換得到 因為這家廠商我是真的很怕 所以我希望你去介入的原因是說這是一個人民的安全 而且是我們國家的門面 如果說在這樣的搞下去的話這是一個很大的問題"},{"start":677.415,"end":677.895,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":698.63,"end":698.81,"text":"主席"},{"start":719.289,"end":719.409,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":733.724,"end":734.365,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":752.254,"end":773.753,"text":"採購法對於很多委員都問了嘛總諮詢院委員問了嘛所以這樣的一直在擦邊球我不知道廠商有問題廠商有問題不合格的廠商我們把它叫做這個渣男廠商好了奇怪可是渣男廠商也要有一個渣男吸鐵啊為什麼這些採購的單位老是"},{"start":774.474,"end":774.935,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":793.777,"end":794.117,"text":"魯明哲召委"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:39:43 - 10:53:22","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154969","gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時39分）謝謝召委，有請我們工程會陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["魯委員明哲：陳主委，今天最主要跟你來談一下，桃機公司從T3開始，這一路風風雨雨遇到很多的困難，我發覺工程會在後面就變成救火隊，包括了招標的過程，前一任主委乾脆來主導整個三航廈，中間很多的困難逐步去幫忙，這個是我們在上一屆的一個重點，好不容易把建築物的問題大致解決，結果又來了T3的問題，解決沒有？他們不嫌問題多啦！","現在大家要進出T3，除了車子載到門口的之外，在航廈之間串接的部分，他們要用自駕，招標了17億，一般其他的國家，甚至我們一、二航廈，都是用軌道載運來串接航廈，現在我們要使用比較新的方式、新的科技，我們如果有能力，我是沒有意見，招標了17億，變成了T3PMS，等於用電動自駕大巴來進行接駁，結果在7月份出了一個新聞說，這個得標團隊得標之後不到半年就準備換裡面最重要的一個部分，我看到這個新聞，我相信你應該也有聽到這個消息，你應該更清楚，但是我跟你講一般民眾擔心什麼事呢？要蓋T3的原因是因為政府告訴我們未來整個機場的吞吐量大概是到5,000萬人次，甚至最高的容量到8,000萬人次，這是機場公司說的，那麼平均每一天透過接駁系統接駁的人數是非常非常高的，所以第一個，不能開玩笑，大家都期待我們的技術是不是成熟？第二個，這個案子標出去有沒有委託到一個成熟的單位？民眾這樣的想法你覺得合理嗎？你對這個案子的了解程度如何？"],["陳主任委員金德：我在總質詢的時候有聆聽過委員的質詢，在總質詢的時候也是提到這個案子，這個得標廠商得標之後變更分包廠商，這個變更我想政府採購法有一定的條件，必須滿足這個條件，而且要這個辦理機關（應該是桃機公司）的同意才可以，我想我能夠理解的就是政府採購法在這一方面比較有嚴格的規定。"],["魯委員明哲：這個東西不是蓋房子，簡單來講，我們今天在談一個標案，如果是做個公園，換個水電廠商，我們知道太多人會做了，不敢講說幾十萬個，只要有幾萬個合格包商，而且國家都把它分好了，甚至建築，你是甲級、什麼級的，一清二楚，隨便找都有。可是我們在談的是，我覺得現在工程會真的要注意，有很多新的科技、新的願景、新的目標，就擺明說今天我要換或者不換，市場上沒有幾個人會的這種東西，你要換廠商跟一般的工程換廠商是完全兩碼事，我必須要講，這個新的東西為什麼大家擔心？擔心的原因是，就像軌道一樣，你會做車體，我相信你對車體的專業，可是單有車體車不會開，也不會回傳到指揮中心說哪輛車到站了沒有、有沒有接觸、有沒有危險，所以系統是所有軌道的靈魂，而它今天要換的是系統廠商。","簡單來講，我們在招標的過程，來的廠商一組一組講得滿嘴泡沫，經驗多少、歷練多少，你們放心交給我，我的系統廠商多強、多棒，弄完之後百分之百滿意，不光是快速、安全，講了整片，人家三個團隊，終於青睞你了，因為你說得比較好，我青睞你，而且中間系統廠商的優勢是最重要的，系統廠商到底可以做什麼樣的部分、安全怎麼樣，它講的特別多，而現在主標的廠商主要是做車體的，當然就是電動大巴，那怎麼樣去動、怎麼樣去接客人，二、三航廈中間會不會有另外的航廈等等，我覺得這個不是說合不合法令的問題，是說我的天啊！我們精挑細選，在採購法、在工程會的領域我們的制度設計到底有沒有出了問題？我們花了這麼大的精力上網招標，也寫了這麼多的說明、服務建議書，然後請了這麼多的專家學者，難道失靈了嗎？聽了半天，選了一家，說這一家好，結果你才講完讚，手還沒收回來，它要換人了。主委，其實這種新科技的產品，尤其是這種公共運輸，像這樣的做法你覺得妥不妥當？就以廠商來說。"],["陳主任委員金德：因為T3是國家的重要公建計畫，每一個環節、每一個設備都希望符合一定的設計水準，本案我想會請工程會主管針對這個案子要求桃機公司來說明原因，我們會具體的去了解有沒有符合政府採購法得以更換分包廠商的條件，或者是會不會如剛才委員所說的影響到將來整個營運的品質。"],["魯委員明哲：好，因為系統廠商出問題就表示它當時提的proposal、當時的服務建議書有關系統的部分其實有一部分都不是真的，因為廠商都換人了，第二個還要驗證它的服務建議書，要按照服務建議書來履約，但它到底是不是真的？不是我寫的，我跟你講，這真的是一團亂，但是我在這裡鄭重拜託，就像T3一樣，這個問題不亞於T3航廈的建築，我希望你不光是監督，我希望以你們的專業去幫忙他們解決這個複雜的問題。為什麼呢？服務建議書假設是它分包廠商的，在法院都有公證的，它不讓，然後下一家要來，你不要按照我的服務建議書，這是我的know-how，這後面的一些問題會變成一個尷尬的問題，第一個，T3硬體終於完工了，中間串接的運輸體系時間差很多，所以這個部分我要拜託你介入一下，好不好？幫忙一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["魯委員明哲：第二個，因為時間的關係，我覺得很感慨，因為它這次換掉的這個系統廠商叫理立，正好是我上一屆擔任立委時跟很多委員都非常關心的一家廠商，它提了非常非常多的計畫，從地方政府、從臺灣頭到臺灣尾，再拿到我們中央政府一堆計畫，我個人可以接受啦！有些新的東西真的是實驗性質的，你不實驗怎麼去落實，我覺得有一些計畫實驗不成、沒辦法落實，就說抱歉，7,000萬裝在口袋走了，想一想，好吧！既然是實驗，國家總是要實驗。可是這幾年，2021年它已經進入臺鐵了，因為沒有人管，它研究不出來、不成功，又怎麼樣？不重要啊！政府的錢照領啊！之前一些委託或者試行的案件，我就算了，到2021年它開始介入臺鐵多元通訊的行控4.0，坦白講，很多外面交通專業的學者專家都嚇到，它當時說我們臺灣要創新，要做全世界第一、唯一自己的一個行控安全系統。發生兩次大車禍，有人這樣說，理論上聽起來是好事，可是你的廠商呢？它說，我在美國某一個城市做過了相關的自駕系統，結果我們透過運安會去查、我們透過外交部去查，甚至有委員直接聯絡那個城市，查無此事、查無此公司啊！在臺灣耀武揚威、東騙西騙，上了一大堆的節目。","本來2021年臺鐵行控4.0只是初步的計畫，也是找一段鐵路來跑跑看，花了五千六百多萬，事實上後面還有非常大的計畫，就被叫停了，今年的4月2號運安會說，這個根本不可行啊！這根本不能用啊！講得很難聽。所以我的問題點是，我們的政府就算是財力很好，也不能這樣玩。它弄完之後，沒事了，該領的錢拿了就走了。我們發覺扣掉成本，因為系統、software比較看不太到，所以它就賺了，那接下來賺哪一條呢？就賺機場三航廈PMS自駕系統，它再來賺一條。現在理立又是我們剛剛講機場三航廈自駕接駁系統的系統廠商，所以我剛剛講說你可以不可以換？其實我很兩難，我希望換得到，我是真的很怕這家廠商，所以我希望你去介入的原因是因為這攸關人民的安全，而且是我們國家的門面，如果再這樣搞下去的話，這是一個很大的問題。","第二個，針對於類似的廠商，好像又不符合101條款，它就一直做不出實績，能不能用101條款把它排除，我們用採購法為所有的工程單位在第一線去擋一下，結果好像也用不到。我覺得對於這種新的科技，它說什麼算什麼的，後面做的都沒有成果，我倒是覺得101條款要針對於這種類似software、系統的，它的KPI是什麼，什麼叫成、什麼叫不成，或者說連續兩個案子或者三個案子沒有做出實績的時候，我真的希望工程會對於這種困擾能夠介入，你看，它現在又進去桃機了，你我都有可能要去坐那個自駕系統，萬一電池發生火災怎麼辦？萬一系統門不開怎麼辦？坦白講，我會怕，我先講我會怕，很多人民也在怕，所以這個的部分是不是能夠想方設法，第一個，你們去幫忙它；第二個，針對採購法很多委員都問了，總質詢也有人問了，不合格的廠商我們把它叫做渣男廠商好了，可是渣男廠商也要有一個渣男吸鐵，為什麼這些採購的單位老是把它吸進來呢？又是你、又是你，到底是我們法令不足，還是採購人員出了問題，才讓這些真的不合格、過去沒有實績的廠商還在與我們的國家簽約，一直去弄這些東西？我的時間到了，希望主委您做個結論。"],["陳主任委員金德：針對這一類的廠商，我們希望能夠建置廠商履歷，優秀的廠商跟委員剛才所說的渣男廠商，我們都分別建立履歷供機關評選時做參考。"],["魯委員明哲：好，那請你去多幫忙桃機公司，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委質詢，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時53分）","繼續開會（11時3分）"],["主席：繼續開會，接下來邀請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:10:01","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:39:30+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154968","委員名稱":"廖先翔","duration":601,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:29:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b126ebc4c80ddb44c7b6cd6776ddc26aed67042be656cc2aaa44ad80bc68501425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.097843750000001,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.13971875,"end":6.8990937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.101593750000001,"end":8.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.974718750000001,"end":10.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.45534375,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.99534375,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.41284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也會因為它的製程也會有所不一樣對不對就是它產生了多少量 產生多少量 固定量每申請一公噸 它所產生的碳排都會不一樣"},{"start":453.823,"end":455.443,"text":"主委我認為你這樣子的計算方式有很大的問題"},{"start":477.668,"end":487.386,"text":"我真的這樣計畫以後會產生很大的問題就像剛剛何清淳委員講的你一個國家有兩套制度你到時要走經濟部環境部還是我們公共工程委員會的一個計算方式"},{"start":491.407,"end":512.681,"text":"每一個部會每一個中央部會訂定的方式都不一樣那廠商怎麼依選目前只有公共工程委員會在收集這些資料當然有些機關也有比方說水利他也有在收集我覺得最基本的每一個部會所認定的碳排的係數碳排的數量一定都是有一樣的國家的認證的單位"},{"start":514.787,"end":514.867,"text":"廖先翔"},{"start":532.779,"end":552.601,"text":"我們會把這個碳排係數更加的檢視啦跟其他第三方共同來好不好不要單純就是只是一個統計而已不是一個統計而已我希望我們的公共工程會會去定一個實際的目標依據2050我們國家淨零碳排的一個目標我們逐年希望"},{"start":553.602,"end":568.412,"text":"我不要講總體因為總體可能會因為我們公共工程發報的多寡會影響到我們排放的多寡而是我們的每一個公共工程裡面你剛剛講的碳排係數我們去做一個逐年的去把它去做調降"},{"start":569.272,"end":596.219,"text":"那廠商他才有動力去做他產線的優化或者是去做一個淨零碳排的一個目標一起來配合國家的政策我們才能做到實質的一個從最基本的每一個公共工程的單項去做要求你每個單項都去要求的時候你總體的部分你當然就會下降好不好以上麻煩主委啦謝謝我剛剛就講了其實跟剛剛很多委員講的都是類似的好不好希望我們去設定一個目標而不是只是一個統計而已好不好謝謝"},{"start":599.216,"end":599.901,"text":"謝謝廖先翔委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:29:29 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10:39:30","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154968","gazette":{"lineno":357,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（10時29分）謝謝召委，一樣請我們陳主委。"],["主席：請陳金德主委。"],["廖委員先翔：我們環境部部長有沒有來？"],["主席：今天沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有喔！我怕主委等一下又要一直找環境部部長救援。"],["主席：今天是工程會的業務報告。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝喔！今天大家都非常關心淨零碳排，當然政府常常會提一些比較遠的、比較宏觀的目標，譬如說RE100、2050淨零碳排，我們工程會也訂定了一個目標，就是2030年減碳目標訂為相對2005年至少要減大概25%正負1%，這是我們訂的目標，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：是國發會。"],["廖委員先翔：這是國發會訂的目標？那我們工程會有沒有自己訂的目標？"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會不是這個業務的主管機關，但是因為公共工程的碳排占將近10%……"],["廖委員先翔：如果說這個不是你們的業務的話，那我們今天要討論什麼？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為公共工程的基本設計的審查是屬於工程會的業務，所以我們在審查階段或者是……"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們只負責統計而已，是不是？你們不設定目標？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們可以審查它的基本設計，包括金質獎的頒發等等，可以用這些工具讓整個公共工程能夠減少碳排，我們也努力在公共工程的部分……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，很明確的問，減少碳排是不是我們工程會的目標，還是我們只是做一個統計的業務而已？"],["陳主任委員金德：就公共工程的減碳，當然工程會要負責。"],["廖委員先翔：是我們的目標嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們有沒有設定實質的目標？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個部分很難去設定說多少年要減少多少，因為公共工程它……"],["廖委員先翔：問題是我們政府就已經明定2050淨零碳排啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：因為公共工程會有增加、會有減少，每年公共工程預算都不一樣……"],["廖委員先翔：各個部會一定都要訂定自己的目標，當然可能我們實體的工程不是工程會在做，所以你們也有要求各部會、15個部會要提出減碳的相關辦理情形，對不對？我們在113年5月28日的時候請15個中央相關部會提供公共工程減碳目標，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，公共工程它每年在增加、在變化，所以我們沒有辦法具體說明年、後年要減少多少碳排，沒有辦法，但是我們可以要求各機關在他們推動公共工程的時候，比方說，依據工程會提供的工具來做這個碳排，在基本設計的時候做減碳的設計，或者在施工階段能夠就近取材，不用長途運輸等等，這樣的工具來減少碳排，至於碳排的基準是各機關自己去訂定，因為它是一個變動的。"],["廖委員先翔：所以以後在討論2050淨零碳排的時候就不用討論到我們工程會了，是這樣的意思？"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會是針對公共工程……"],["廖委員先翔：我們是一個督導的單位，我們當然期許各個招標機關要有一個減碳的措施，對不對？剛剛主委有提到很多設計階段的時候的碳排係數，如果說我們只是訂定一個碳排係數，好像就只是在簡單做一個統計的工具而已吧，目前看起來是這樣。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，因為碳排係數，比方說鋼筋，什麼樣的鋼筋它每噸或每公斤排碳多少、碳排係數，你這個甲工程用了多少這個產品，你可以計算這個工程的排碳多少。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就是統計啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：它作為設計的依據。"],["廖委員先翔：是啊，所以是單純統計而已嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是統計而已，它作為設計的依據，他整個可以算出這個工程完成之後排了多少碳、需要減多少碳。"],["廖委員先翔：需要減多少碳，那就是要設定一個目標嘛，是吧！"],["陳主任委員金德：不是……"],["廖委員先翔：你就只是給他一個說你這個水泥，你的碳排的單位是多少，鋼筋的單位是多少，然後設計單位去把它設計出來，然後告訴我這個總體的公共工程的碳排是多少。"],["陳主任委員金德：比方說，他也可以用一些再生料源，或者一些比較低碳的……"],["廖委員先翔：主委，其實剛剛很多委員在質詢的時候就很單純的感受到，我們公共工程委員會並沒有去訂定相關的一些目標，或者是您說的這個碳排係數是不是要逐年調降這件事情，我們會去訂定碳排係數，我們不要講到那麼大的一個公共工程，我們單純只就單項水泥、鋼筋的碳排係數，我們會不會去設定目標，每年去把它調降？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個碳排係數跟它的生產工法有關，它的工法是什麼樣的工法，如果是固定的工法，它的那個碳排係數會比較固定。"],["廖委員先翔：如果說固定工法是固定的碳排係數，那要降什麼？那你就只是統計而已啊，你就變主計總處了。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，碳排係數是每單位原料它排了多少碳，所以這個是固定的。"],["廖委員先翔：對啊。"],["陳主任委員金德：所以他要不要選擇……"],["廖委員先翔：如果是固定的話，我們減什麼碳？"],["陳主任委員金德：他可以不選擇排碳係數比較高的產品，用一些比較低的產品。"],["廖委員先翔：甚至我們在討論碳排係數的時候，每一家廠商到時候因為有碳稅的問題，所以每一家廠商的碳排係數實務上都會不一樣，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：不會，碳排係數是固定的，只是他用了多少量。"],["廖委員先翔：如果說每一家的碳排係數都是固定的……"],["陳主任委員金德：每個產品。"],["廖委員先翔：每個產品的碳排係數是固定的，那減什麼碳？那我們個別廠商為什麼要去買碳稅，為什麼要繳碳稅？每一家廠商的碳排係數是固定的。"],["陳主任委員金德：所謂係數是單位產品的排放量，比方說他用了1,000噸、1萬噸，所以整個不同的工程排的就不一樣，排的量牽涉到他要繳多少碳費……"],["廖委員先翔：我們單純就講個別產品，我們就單純講水泥就好了。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["廖委員先翔：每一家水泥公司到時候因為經濟部或是環境部，它會有相關的碳稅或碳費，每一家廠商要去做碳盤查，所以每一家他們會去查核，就是剛剛何欣純委員講的，經濟部有十多家廠商會去查每一家廠商每生產每單位的原料會生產多少的碳，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["廖委員先翔：如果說你超過標準的話，那你是要去買綠電還是去買碳稅等等的，所以每一家廠商的碳排係數會是不一樣的，但是我們如果在公共工程委員會所訂定的碳排係數都是固定的話，那好像一個單位有兩套制度嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，生產出來的水泥用在公共工程，比方說，甲類的水泥的排放係數是多少，每公斤多少，它用了多少就是一個碳排係數，就水泥廠本身，它在生產水泥的過程當中用了多少燃料，這些燃料排了多少碳，才是這一家水泥廠的排碳……"],["廖委員先翔：對，所以每一家都會不一樣對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：那當然，它生產的量不一樣啊！"],["廖委員先翔：每一家都會不一樣，也會因為它的製程而有所不一樣對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：就是它產生了多少量，產生什麼樣的水泥……"],["廖委員先翔：固定量，每生產1公噸它所產生的碳排都會不一樣，是吧！不然我們為什麼要優化我們的產線？為什麼我們經濟部要補助廠商去做生產線的優化、減碳的優化？如果說你每一個碳排係數都固定的話，那為什麼廠商要來做優化？"],["陳主任委員金德：經過不同製程產生的水泥，我們就會算出這種水泥每單位每公斤產生的……"],["廖委員先翔：主委，我認為你這樣子的計算方式有很大的問題，你這樣計算以後會產生很大的問題，就像剛剛何欣純委員講的，一個國家有兩套制度，你到底要走經濟部、環境部還是我們公共工程委員會的一個計算方式？"],["陳主任委員金德：公共工程委員會是……"],["廖委員先翔：每一個部會、每一個中央部會訂定的方式都不一樣，那廠商要怎麼依循？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為目前只有公共工程委員會在收集這些資料，當然有些機關也有，比方說水利也有在收集。"],["廖委員先翔：我覺得最基本的，每一個部會所認定的碳排係數、碳排的數量一定都是由一樣的國家的認證單位，一樣的檢驗核可的單位去做盤查，我們最重要的是去做目標的訂定，而不是單純去做一個統計的數字，我們唯有去做一個目標的訂定，廠商它才有去做減碳的一個動力，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會把這個碳排係數更加的檢視，跟其他第三方共同來……"],["廖委員先翔：不要單純就只是一個統計而已，我希望我們的公共工程委員會是去定一個實際的目標，依據我們國家2050淨零碳排的一個目標，我們逐年希望，我不要講總體，因為總體可能會因為我們公共工程發包的多寡，會影響到我們排放的多寡，而是我們的每一個公共工程裡面你剛剛講的碳排係數，我們逐年的去把它調降，那廠商它才有動力去做產線的優化，或者是去做一個淨零碳排的目標，一起來配合國家的政策，我們才能做到實質的從最基本的每一個公共工程的單項去做要求，你每個單項都去要求的時候，你總體的部分當然就會下降。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["廖委員先翔：以上就麻煩主委，謝謝，我剛剛講的其實跟剛剛很多委員講的都是類似的，我希望我們去設定一個目標，而不是只是一個統計而已，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員質詢，接下來邀請魯明哲召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:15:11","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:29:12+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154967","委員名稱":"何欣純","duration":911,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:14:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bb65fa8d3349ece287b6cd6776ddc26aed67042be656cc2aa32eaf49779187fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.55346875,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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那麼那一天"},{"start":99.497,"end":118.442,"text":"去現場看的就是邀請了相關的專家委員去現場就基本設計的內容就先看當然現在有些修正我想近日之內這個基本設計就會完成核定我剛剛提到的那個基本設計對不起因為我剛剛提到的那個點是因為藍線的基本設計我們來不及參與但是未來的局限的設計我們可以趕得及來參與那現在在這個轉成的動線只是其中一個點"},{"start":129.405,"end":149.005,"text":"這是一個點接下來我知道主委去這個視察的時候有提到現在我們捷運藍線還有可能未來第一個施工周邊的交通交尾的計畫的問題還有高架橋要跨越大甲斷層的問題"},{"start":150.748,"end":175.882,"text":"冰海海線地區抗強風的一個問題淺頓的隧道的穿越河流的技術問題那當然還有其他的交通設施工程問題那我剛剛講的那一點是因為我們也在提捷運藍線要延伸到我的選區屯區那如果有延伸的話那跟局限的交匯點就在剛剛我講的臺中車站那附近所以我才希望說"},{"start":177.023,"end":197.344,"text":"藉著中央跟專家學者今天可以有效率的協助跟審議主委這方面你去視察的時候這幾個點你的意見聽到專家學者意見是什麼這個就是我們當天很多專家學者提醒的這個藍線的捷運算是台灣是最蠻複雜或困難的工程"},{"start":200.486,"end":223.658,"text":"臺中港道市區裡面的臺灣大道也是繁忙的整個交通非常繁忙的路線那也要經過這個有一些橋樑甚至要做兩層的那經過斷層所以我們基本設計的部分會根據專家學者的建議做修正那麼會"},{"start":225.359,"end":243.771,"text":"整個來協助藍線能夠我們是希望更有效率的修正當然現在就在修正當中但是我們希望專家學者給的這個經驗還有意見是真正的可以第一個有效率第二個是真正符合臺中市的地形地貌跟地形所有的這樣子當然這個工程專業我就交給我們工程會的專家學者"},{"start":246.032,"end":246.172,"text":"主席"},{"start":263.983,"end":268.807,"text":"關心淨零碳排淨零轉型尤其我們8月8號國家氣候變遷對策委員會成立的第一次會議就在談到我們公共採購是不是如何來促進淨零轉型那這個部分就剛剛很多人在講的我在5月29號也曾經質詢過"},{"start":283.038,"end":309.874,"text":"就是說我們對於未來公共工程要帶頭減碳要怎麼雙贏利多所以我那時候要求建立碳排資料庫第二個要明定減碳的基準值第三輔導產業碳排的認證你知道嗎主委我要提醒你我們的團隊實在是你知道嗎左邊黃色這一個塊就是你們回文給我的我覺得回文的很沒有禮貌而且很不切實際而且很沒有內容"},{"start":310.794,"end":334.205,"text":"短期工具指引看牌講廢話中期目標給我階段性目標這不是廢話嗎長期監理這是你們6月份回覆的未來請回覆本席的公文的時候可不可以更針對要點跟你們要做的工作內容跟時程好好的給我回覆好不好"},{"start":334.745,"end":360.292,"text":"主委可以嗎這個大家那麼關心的事情你們怎麼會這麼的敷衍呢好接下來我就要問了我們現在要建立碳排資料庫我贊成我也支持工程會但是第一個環境部認不認我們未來的碳排資料庫裡面的減碳的係數計算目前有跟環境部協調過他認不認帳"},{"start":368.57,"end":391.741,"text":"我們這個是探牌係數希望是收集起來希望提供給在做設計的時候在做探盤查的時候來使用可是剛剛主委你在回答其他委員的時候你有說我們探牌資料庫成立建立了之後我們還會建立一個試算系統估算系統估算系統好好叫估算系統"},{"start":393.223,"end":412.053,"text":"那很多的公共工程從設計的時候就引用你們的估算系統來做那這個係數我還質疑第一個你們說現在513項的第三方驗證這第三方驗證又是哪裡來的驗證是我們現在經濟部標檢局公告的那17家機構驗證的嗎"},{"start":416.277,"end":436.75,"text":"未來這個驗證獲得這個係數的計算我再確定一次環境部有確認過嗎他未來認不認我跟委員報告如果說環境部要依據碳排來收集碳費那這個是向人民收集碳費他應該在他的相關法律裡面去訂定標準"},{"start":437.971,"end":449.82,"text":"不對囉那主委那這個碳排資料庫如果你做這樣的切割的話那你又告訴各公共工程的所有的設計開始就要把工程的每一個環節的這個碳係數都要估算出來"},{"start":453.203,"end":478.352,"text":"那估算出來之後很多人都會認為說這是政府給我的資料庫我依據這個政府的資料庫我來做這個這個碳的係數的一個計算計算的時候我可以掌握說我這個公共工程可能可以減碳多少那未來呢我在跟政府因為環境部對人民來講叫做政府那環境部也是政府機關那我在跟環境部申報"},{"start":480.336,"end":481.857,"text":"那你有建議過環境部了嗎?"},{"start":496.997,"end":515.265,"text":"因為環境部目前的發資訊還不多啦環境部裡面的收集的係數還不多主委我現在就在提醒你啦你看喔再回到剛剛上一頁你光是現在第一個碳排資料庫的建立才不到一半因為還有589項還沒有驗證都還沒有另外第三方驗證"},{"start":523.735,"end":548.111,"text":"513項的第三方驗證到底算不算數是不是經濟部公告的17家驗證單位來驗證的我也不知道未來還沒有驗證的589項要不要經過現在經濟部已經公布的那17家的驗證單位的驗證才算數這個你還沒有對外說清楚這第一點第二點我為什麼要這樣子"},{"start":549.417,"end":569.35,"text":"要求你們提醒你們因為呢如果你們建立了這個碳排資料庫僅止於像竹蔚你剛剛講的只是讓設計階段的工程人員也好設計單位的人員也好來做這一項公共工程的一個碳係數的參考的話"},{"start":571.857,"end":589.715,"text":"那這個參考有用嗎我不知道因為這會牽涉到後端未來這個公共工程他們在核報環境部所謂的要去檢視他的碳量啦要需不需要繳碳費啊那能不能作為一個依據"},{"start":591.656,"end":607.247,"text":"這個會引起國人很大的疑慮喔第二個如果在這個方面剛剛主委跟我講說沒有這只是一個參考不是依據那請你要提醒環境部你剛剛跟我講喔環境部現在資料很少"},{"start":608.613,"end":608.974,"text":"我們看碳排"},{"start":627.15,"end":648.579,"text":"大戶有的是發電廠或者是煉油廠他那個碳是大戶對那我們這個公共工程當然量很大了但是因為他的單每個鋼筋或泥土那個很大那我的意思說我們這個是設計設計他是廠商設計者可以選擇的我要用A原料或B原料"},{"start":649.259,"end":657.207,"text":"可是問題是主委你這個要講清楚剛剛很多委員都在關心這一點就是什麼為什麼大家要關心這個因為這會牽動到未來碳費的計算這個要由環境部決定"},{"start":662.47,"end":679.244,"text":"所以你現在這樣子講就是說到目前為止你跟環境部就這一個事情上面都還沒有討論過環境部他也可以訂定相關標準是根據什麼標準來收費那環境部要不要依據你的這個計算的這個系統來做看資料庫來做這個依據這還是環境部來決定"},{"start":683.615,"end":683.755,"text":"環境部"},{"start":706.295,"end":724.284,"text":"環境部有這樣的專業我跟你講主委到最後環境部還是會來找公共工程委員會啦公共工程誰管的你管的啊好啦我們跟環境部密切來不是環境部他可以知道說公共工程的這個碳排怎麼計算然後呢應該訂什麼基準啊這個基準訂了之後如果這個公共工程超過了我要怎麼收取"},{"start":735.654,"end":756.182,"text":"主委我是提醒啦因為現在是你講的針對大戶啦所以我不知道這個大戶的定義是什麼啦齁那今年10月要上路上路之後呢我們的公共工程的大戶又是怎麼定義我也不知道我現在是我是門外漢"},{"start":757.603,"end":774.643,"text":"但是我相信國人跟很多的基層的這些工程廠商大概跟我一樣因為他可能也沒有讀過什麼專業的書啦所以他會跟我一樣問說如果公共工程委員會都沒有辦法回答我了那我怎麼辦我怎麼辦 主委"},{"start":779.779,"end":806.398,"text":"我們會跟環境部來協調一個方式他將來可以那未來好了我只要再等三年五年後你總是要做嘛三年五年後你說我們所有的公共工程都要減碳然後呢要可能未來會牽涉到碳費的收取那你總是要一個計算基準嘛這個基準到底是誰定阿阿你說環境部定阿環境部他了解公共工程嗎"},{"start":812.418,"end":824.304,"text":"公共工程的這個攤費的收取標準怎麼辦主委那當然目前來看是你現在是做指引我知道啦我們是現階段做指引啦"},{"start":825.1,"end":851.541,"text":"環境部如果根據工程會這個資料庫來做修正是比較快速的方法對嘛我想當然了嘛大家認為這個專業是在公共工程委員會嘛所以我就來問你的意見嘛那環境部自己本身沒有公共工程的相關的專家或者是相關的制定的一個依據的時候他來詢問公共工程委員會那我們委員會的這個碳排的資料庫會不會成為是一個依據的標準"},{"start":852.882,"end":867.527,"text":"會不會我不知道現在你跟我講不是那未來會不會如果未來會的話那回到我剛剛在提醒你的喔如果未來會的話你的這個整個的第三方驗證"},{"start":869.127,"end":890.594,"text":"到底算不算數再來跟國際接軌到底有沒有接軌算不算數那未來你還有589項是完全還沒有驗證的那你又要如何進行如何跟國際法規接軌我只是提醒未來是還很多要做所以拜託這個實際上的問題"},{"start":893.956,"end":894.877,"text":"何欣純委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:14:01 - 10:29:12","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154967","gazette":{"lineno":307,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時14分）謝謝召委。請政委，也是我們的主委。"],["主席：邀請陳金德主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["何委員欣純：主委早。首先要感謝你，非常積極地到臺中去視察，希望能夠幫助臺中的捷運工程，因為那一天大家都在選召委，我沒有辦法去，但是我還是很感謝，因為現在我們臺中捷運只有一條綠線，市民殷殷地期盼捷運藍線、橘線、紫線，還有更多條線，希望所有的路網可以儘速地動工，可以用最快的速度，但其實用最快的速度大概也要等10年，我們都希望趕快成立一個路網。我自己之前在上個會期的交通委員會也有召開一個考察，既然之前已經決定了，我們來不及參與，就希望能夠在現行的藍線要動工之前，在我們可以參與的時候，看中央可以怎麼樣來協助解決。現在圖面上這個是藍線，我們現在在橘線交會點的臺中車站那一個地方，那個轉乘的動線還有縮短距離很重要，但是我相信目前臺中市政府還在修正當中，如果可以的話，我也希望工程會的專家學者可以協助，去找出一個最好的解方，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，那一天去現場看，就是邀請了相關的專家、委員去現場就基本設計的內容做現勘，當然現在有些修正，我想近日之內基本設計就會完成核定，包括臺中市政府的修正也是。"],["何委員欣純：是，我剛剛提到的那一個點是因為藍線的基本設計我們來不及參與，但是未來橘線的設計，我們可以趕得及來參與，現在這個轉乘的動線只是其中一個點。接下來，我知道主委去視察的時候有提到，現在我們捷運藍線，還有未來施工周邊交通交維計畫的問題、高架橋要跨越大甲斷層的問題、濱海海線地區抗強風的問題、潛盾隧道穿越河流的技術問題，當然還有其他的交通設施工程問題。我剛剛講的那一點是因為我們也在提捷運藍線要延伸到我的選區「屯區」，如果有延伸的話，跟橘線的交會點就在剛剛我講的臺中車站那附近，所以我才希望借重中央跟專家學者的經驗，可以有效率地協助跟審議。主委，這方面你去視察的時候，這幾個點，你的意見、聽到專家學者的意見是什麼？"],["陳主任委員金德：這就是當天很多專家學者提醒的，這個藍線的捷運算是臺中市滿複雜或困難的工程，而且臺中的臺中港到市區裡面的臺灣大道，也是交通非常繁忙的路線，也要經過一些橋梁，甚至要做兩層的，也有經過斷層，所以我們基本設計的部分會根據專家學者的建議做修正，會來協助藍線能夠完成。"],["何委員欣純：我們是希望更有效率，當然現在正在修正當中，但是我們希望專家學者給的經驗還有意見是真正可以：第一個，有效率；第二個是真正符合臺中市的地形、地貌跟地形所有的形態。當然，這個工程專業的部分，我就交給工程會的專家學者。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝，因為已經到尾聲了，已經要核定基本設計了。"],["何委員欣純：是，所以要再更仔細地檢視一次，好不好？因為除了藍線，我們還有很多條線正在等，這個以後我再跟你好好地來討論。","接著，今天很多委員跟我一樣，都在關心淨零碳排、淨零轉型，尤其我們8月8號國家氣候變遷對策委員會成立的第一次會議就談到，我們公共採購要如何來促進淨零轉型，這個部分就是剛剛很多人在講的，我在5月29號也曾經質詢過，對於未來公共工程要帶頭減碳，要怎麼雙贏、利多，所以我那時候要求建立碳排資料庫；第二個要明定減碳的基準值；第三，輔導產業碳排的認證。主委，你知道嗎？我要提醒你，你知道嗎？左邊黃色這塊就是你們回文給我的內容，我覺得你們的團隊實在是回文得很沒有禮貌、很不切實際，而且很沒有內容！「短期工具：指引、碳排……」這不是講廢話？「中期目標：階段性目標」這不是廢話嗎？「長期監理……」這是你們6月份回復的，未來回復本席公文的時候可不可以更針對要點，就你們要做的工作內容跟時程好好地回復，好不好？主委可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，這個我們能夠回答比較清楚……"],["何委員欣純：這個是大家那麼關心的事情，你們怎麼會這麼的敷衍呢？好，接下來我就要問了，我們現在要建立碳排資料庫，我贊成，我也支持工程會，但是第一個是環境部認不認？我們未來在碳排資料庫裡面減碳係數的計算目前有跟環境部協調過，他認不認帳？可以做未來碳費收取的依據嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們這個碳排係數是蒐集起來希望提供在做設計的時候、在做碳盤查的時候來使用。"],["何委員欣純：可是剛剛主委在回答其他委員的時候，你有說我們碳排資料庫成立了之後，我們還會建立一個試算系統……"],["陳主任委員金德：估算系統。"],["何委員欣純：好，這叫估算系統，有很多的公共工程從設計的時候就引用你們的估算系統來做，那對這個係數我還有幾個質疑，第一個，你們說現在只有513項經第三方驗證，這第三方驗證又是哪裡來的驗證？是現在經濟部標檢局公告的那17家機構驗證的嗎？未來在驗證後的這個係數的計算，我想再確定一次，環境部有確認過嗎？他未來認不認？"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，如果環境部要依據碳排來收取碳費，那這個是向人民收取碳費，他應該在相關法律裡面去訂定標準。"],["何委員欣純：不對了，主委，對這個碳排資料庫如果你做這樣的切割的話，那你又告訴大家各公共工程所有的設計一開始就要把工程每一個環節的碳係數都估算出來，在估算的時候，很多人都會認為這是政府給我的資料庫，我依據這個政府的資料庫來做碳係數的計算，在計算出來之後，我可以掌握我這個公共工程可能可以減碳多少，因為環境部對人民來講叫做政府，環境部也是政府機關，未來我在跟環境部申報碳權、碳費之類的時候，那我的依據又是什麼？如果環境部沒有給我一個依據的標準，那我可不可以用公共工程委員會的這個標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個要由環境部訂定標準，因為它涉及跟人民收費。"],["何委員欣純：那你有建議過環境部了嗎？你們有開過會了嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：環境部目前的資訊還不多，環境部所蒐集的係數還不多。"],["何委員欣純：沒有，主委，我現在就是在提醒你，你看！第一個，光是現在碳排資料庫的建立才不到一半，因為還有589項都還沒有驗證。另外，經第三方驗證的513項到底算不算數？我也不知道是不是經濟部所公告17家驗證單位來驗證的，未來還沒有驗證的589項要不要經過現在經濟部已經公布的那17家驗證單位來驗證才算數，這個你還沒有對外說清楚，這是第一點。","第二點，我為什麼要這樣子要求你們、提醒你們？因為如果你們建立的這個碳排資料庫僅止於像主委你剛剛講的，只是讓設計階段的工程人員也好、設計單位的人員也好，來作為這一項公共工程碳係數的參考的話，那我不知道這個參考有沒有用，因為這會牽涉到後端在未來對這個公共工程他們在報環境部然後要去檢視他的碳量需不需要繳碳費時，能不能作為一個依據，這個會引起國人很大的疑慮。第二個，在這個方面，剛剛主委跟我說沒有，這個只是一個參考而不是依據，那請你要提醒環境部，你剛剛跟我講環境部現在的資料很少，那我們還有時間做啊！對不對？因為現在是針對大戶嘛！我還有想所謂的大戶，像我們的公共工程，譬如說未來捷運一蓋就是一千多億，一千多億算不算大戶？主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們是看碳排，比方說，大戶有的是發電廠或者是煉油廠，它那個碳是大戶。"],["何委員欣純：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：那我們公共工程當然量很大，因為每個鋼筋、混凝土的量很大，我的意思是說我們這個是設計，是設計者可以選擇要用A原料或B原料，在設計階段……"],["何委員欣純：主委，你這個要講清楚喔！剛剛有很多委員都在關心這一點，為什麼大家要關心這個？因為這會牽動到未來碳費的計算。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個要由環境部決定。"],["何委員欣純：所以啦！你現在這樣子講，就是說到目前為止，你跟環境部就這一個事情上面都還沒有討論過。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，環境部也可以訂定相關標準，就是要根據什麼標準來收費……"],["何委員欣純：那環境部要不要依據你的這個計算系統、以這個碳資料庫來做依據？"],["陳主任委員金德：這還是由環境部來決定。"],["何委員欣純：沒有，你們兩個部會要講好，而且主委還是政委，我現在已經提出這個問題，連你都沒有辦法回答我了，那國人怎麼會知道呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：我相信環境部會訂定一個依據，環境部有這樣的專業，那目前我們是在起步階段，趕快蒐集這些碳排係數。"],["何委員欣純：環境部有這樣的專業？主委，我跟你講，到最後環境部還是會來找公共工程委員會啦！公共工程是誰管的？是你管的啊！對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們跟環境部密切來……"],["何委員欣純：不然環境部可以知道公共工程的碳排怎麼計算，然後應該定什麼基準，在這個基準定了之後，如果這個公共工程超過了，我要怎麼收取，這個我相信他會來問你啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會根據委員的指導來跟環境部商量。"],["何委員欣純：主委，我是要提醒，因為現在你講的是針對大戶，雖然我不知道這個大戶的定義是什麼，那在今年10月要上路，在上路之後，我們對公共工程的大戶又是怎麼定義，我也不知道，我是門外漢，但是我相信國人跟很多基層的工程廠商大概跟我一樣，因為他可能也沒讀過什麼專業的書，所以他會跟我一樣問說：如果公共工程委員會都沒有辦法回答我了，那我怎麼辦？主委，我怎麼辦？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會跟環境部來協調一個方式，他將來可以……"],["何委員欣純：主委，未來我只要再等3年、5年後，你總是要做嘛！在3年、5年後你說我們所有的公共工程要減碳，然後可能未來會牽涉到碳費的收取，那你總是要有一個計算基準嘛！這個基準到底是誰定啊？你說是環境部定，可是環境部了解公共工程嗎？未來在3年後、5年後如果要收的時候，公共工程碳費的收取標準怎麼辦？主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：那當然目前來看是……"],["何委員欣純：我知道你現在是做指引，我們在現階段是做指引啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：環境部如果根據工程會這個資料庫來做修正是比較快速的方法。"],["何委員欣純：對嘛！我想當然爾嘛！大家認為這個專業是在公共工程委員會，所以我就來問你的意見嘛！那環境部自己本身沒有公共工程相關的專家或者是相關的制定依據的時候，他來詢問公共工程委員會，那我們委員會這個碳排的資料庫會不會成為一個依據的標準？我不知道會不會，現在你跟我講不是，那未來會不會？如果未來會的話，那回到我剛剛在提醒你的，如果未來會的話，你這整個的第三方驗證到底算不算數？再來，到底有沒有跟國際接軌？算不算數？那未來你還有589項是完全還沒有驗證的，那你又要如何進行？如何跟國際法規接軌？我只是提醒，未來還有很多要做，所以拜託你，這個是實際上的問題，國人有疑問的、不知道的、看不清楚的、也問不到的，再請我們的主委、也是我們的政委可以跨部會來協調，必須要快，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員的質詢。","接下來邀請廖先翔委員質詢。","在這邊先預告一下，就是我們等一下在魯明哲召委質詢之後休息10分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_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Eats的這個事情那當時提出要併購的時候,大家引起各界非常大的關注"},{"start":33.831,"end":40.796,"text":"外送平台的消費當中分別有超過七成跟六成都有使用過這兩家都有使用過換句話說如果是合併之後可能外送市場它是八成或者是九成這個是會導致"},{"start":63.308,"end":90.183,"text":"一家獨大所以本期要請教主委您的看法呢這個數字告訴你那您的看法呢如果第一大跟第二大結合將來就是一個市場它有獨佔的力量這個事實上會增強一定的力量就是八成九成嘛你也同意這樣的論點喔那所以要請教主委從公平會對於併購案的它有四個標準嘛您在哪四個標準啊"},{"start":92.23,"end":115.874,"text":"我們會看他結合以後對於店家餐廳對消費者還有外送員的影響這第一個面向第二個就是說其他的潛在的競爭者有沒有可能因此就進不來參與競爭那再來就是說提高價格的可能性"},{"start":117.659,"end":137.458,"text":"以及會不會跟其他的業者有聯合的行為這些都是會一起來考量那包括消費者外送員跟他抗衡的力量是不是談判力量就不對等這些都是我們要綜合判斷的因素您剛才所敘述的那麼如果在這兩家合併你同意合併的時候會不會產生這樣的現象"},{"start":140.456,"end":140.656,"text":"市場集中度"},{"start":155.386,"end":179.764,"text":"結合後併購方定價的能力第三個是合併後協同效果也就是聯合行為這個是最嚴肅的一個議題接下來就是市場的一個效益這是你基本的四大原則請你這四大原則你要背清楚所以這件事情到目前為止的進度到底是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":182.832,"end":202.839,"text":"第一 剛才我講的那個回答就是有沒有送案進來了 請教這兩家有沒有送案進來有送案進來 五月有遞件遞件 接下來呢遞件以後 因為文件不齊備 我們通知補正通知補正 是你在五月份送來 多久以前通知補正"},{"start":204.456,"end":206.198,"text":"因為這個影響非常的巨大"},{"start":230.376,"end":230.737,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":239.403,"end":261.404,"text":"就已經有這樣的現象就已經有將這個合作廠商也要把他們的佣金要來提高所以最後的受害者就是消費者我們也希望達到三贏便利的一個三贏政策所以本席給你幾項具體的建議第一個必須要嚴審"},{"start":263.286,"end":263.446,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":283.815,"end":306.189,"text":"第3是否會影響到員工薪資．跟受僱者．以真正的守護大眾的權利這三項本席再提醒我們公平會當然剛剛你回答的那個四部語言的四部也包含在這裡面所以既然理念一樣一定要好好的嚴審保障我們所有人的一個權利"},{"start":307.43,"end":308.091,"text":"請大家放心公平會會謹慎合理的來"},{"start":323.92,"end":327.363,"text":"2023年2月15日修正的氣候變遷因應法當然針對於溫室氣體的排放量減量的基礎 國際間大家都朝這個方向在這種情況之下 6月19日的媒體報導有出現了不少的溫室氣體查驗人員相關課程"},{"start":350.001,"end":351.443,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":368.288,"end":368.448,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":385.969,"end":386.109,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":401.983,"end":407.907,"text":"本席請問針對本席的提問也就是環境部跟您說不是上完課廣告就直接拿到license你知不知道這回事啊"},{"start":427.723,"end":447.592,"text":"這個實在是讓我們很訝異環境部已經公布多次跟你們溝通他認為此舉已經違反了已經違反了公平交易法你們還到現在在這裡還沒有辦法回答本席你還要讓民眾繼續被人家騙嗎你的功能在哪裡啊你知不知道環境部跟你講這個事情"},{"start":457.085,"end":482.515,"text":"他已經告訴你了怎麼如果環境部已經告訴你多次告訴你他告訴你已經違法了不要再有人傷害你趕快去查清楚好不好我們政府的橫向部門都沒有再聯繫你讓我非常的訝異啊"},{"start":484.062,"end":496.754,"text":"請你趕快去查清楚告訴本席順便資料告訴本席再來一個議題國內呢我們現在的生活方式它豐滿的這個團購的方式對不對你們也是有"},{"start":498.223,"end":520.011,"text":"有史以來第一次在9月11號的這個報導也就是穿戴式的空氣淨潔期廠商結盟消費者消費團體那總共呢你們也罰了就是有史以來公平會一口氣處罰團購事業與共同合作銷售共5家廠商你們也罰了80萬的這個"},{"start":522.552,"end":524.193,"text":"市場整個行銷的一個主流"},{"start":547.91,"end":548.631,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":564.232,"end":564.532,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":583.66,"end":597.978,"text":"：楊瓔"},{"start":598.257,"end":601.04,"text":"主委本席給你一個結論跟建議也就是說你好不容易手上頭一招"},{"start":616.954,"end":634.991,"text":"楊瓊瓔議員"},{"start":635.111,"end":640.397,"text":"你們要著重在宣導告訴大家你像這樣的行為我已經開發了80萬喔你要宣導你現在開發了80萬有誰知道有誰知道少數人知道所以你只有發一個新聞稿誰給你看燈你應該要去找你怎麼樣宣導的管道"},{"start":657.094,"end":680.535,"text":"加強宣導的管道預防重瘀治療你讓社會大眾知道你不要亂搞不要讓人家受害我會處罰的這樣子至少可以有一點惡主作用認同嗎這個我認同認同你趕快去做好不好你把你的方案要怎麼樣去推廣讓大家知道不要再犯法了這一點我覺得非常的重要你把你的方案詳細順便資料給本席好不好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:38:35 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人事長我今天我雖然沒有來現場聆聽您的口頭報告但是我有認真的讀了您所提出來的業務報告那麼在這次的業務報告裡面其實我有關心幾個議題然後正好您在報告裡面有提所以我現在就想要來就教有關於就是您在業務報告裡面提到的涉及到像是組織精簡"},{"start":45.503,"end":45.823,"text":"公職律師"},{"start":66.617,"end":66.777,"text":"那我想請問就是說"},{"start":98.437,"end":118.131,"text":"當現在政府或是有其他的這個民間的呼籲說要成立這些新部會在這個新部會成立他勢必會影響到我們政府機關的整個組織架構人員的增加員額增加經費也會增加那請問人事長您對於像"},{"start":119.96,"end":142.912,"text":"這幾年我們陸陸續續做機關組織的調整增加這麼多的部會或是改變部會的從部改成會或從會改成提升成為部那這部分您的看法是什麼您認為這個跟我們這個政府接下來的人事的緣額會不會產生重大的影響我們經費的支出就想聽聽看您的意見"},{"start":147.654,"end":160.92,"text":"謝謝委員這個議題事實上我們整個組織在調整事實上是因應整個社會還有國際歧視在調整像各自成立委員會就大概七八年前"},{"start":161.88,"end":178.176,"text":"歐盟那裡有成立GDPR然後我們為了以他們接軌所以我們也成立了各支籌備委員會現在是成立籌備處的一個階段它本身是一個獨立機關大概介於有一點類似研能會的這一種組織的結構"},{"start":180.638,"end":209.881,"text":"那體育發展部大概這幾年大概也知道臺灣在運動賽事方面對在整個表現都非常好那我們也希望說從另外一個角度如何提供全民更好的一個運動的環境還有健康的體魄從這個角度來會成立一個部那至於新住民的這個部分是大院才是要求要成立一個專者機關的部分"},{"start":211.402,"end":235.983,"text":"其實我的問題在於說依照現在行政院的組織法裡面行政院組織法裡面有明定我們就是有14個部應該是14個部8個會是不是14個部9個會那麼未來要怎麼樣去做調整呢是又要再把某個部又拉下來改成會嗎"},{"start":237.529,"end":247.579,"text":"如果說按照你們現在講的整個人力的管理是要以當增則增因減則減的原則那麼當你的人力增加了之後你哪些要減呢我覺得委員這個問題非常好現在目前的一個規劃會成立一個"},{"start":257.332,"end":257.352,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":287.792,"end":309.024,"text":"我們會在這個範圍內去做移動的概念它不是競爭家因為這一個新的部會它有競爭家一樣我們也會定期透過兩年一次的延合評鑑去減少有些業務一定會有消有漲嘛是的我了解這個情況但是就是說以我們看到之前速發部的成立"},{"start":309.824,"end":320.074,"text":"其實他基本上已經也占用了我們目前就是之前的不少的員額那現在要再成立一個體育部當然本人是支持成立體育部但是就說在整個的整體國家的總員額"},{"start":324.147,"end":324.167,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":343.419,"end":343.599,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":364.271,"end":364.331,"text":"公職律師"},{"start":389.584,"end":395.906,"text":"本席在上禮拜五的總諮詢裏面其實我有特別提到有關於NCC編列的訴訟費用過高因為業者不滿NCC所做的處分所以紛紛提起行政訴訟那它的訴訟費用夏年度還編了800多萬前兩年還有超過上千萬的訴訟費用"},{"start":413.712,"end":439.277,"text":"所以由這個角度來看似乎NCC 譬如說它內部就真的要去聘請聘請的公職律師可能會比這個編列預算去付一個訴訟付這麼高的訴訟費用都要來的經濟那我想請教就是就我們律師法修正通過增加公職律師那麼人事總處這邊有去了解目前到底有哪些機關有設置公職律師嗎"},{"start":441.847,"end":447.293,"text":"目前健保署有提出來偵測兩名公職律師其他都沒有目前還沒有提出來因為他們可能要評估然後要修編制表"},{"start":457.748,"end":462.93,"text":"其實我認為說這個部分的話其實人事總處這裡其實也可以去了解一下各機關的需求然後而且呢要特別將這個一些機關他們浪費人民的納稅錢編了很高的這個編了很多的公帑去支應訴訟費用的這件事情這些機關都要去考慮他們未來是不是要增設公職律師那這部分的話可能希望人事長這邊也要去了解目前公職律師的經用狀況還有為什麼"},{"start":487.222,"end":487.382,"text":"國安部"},{"start":504.192,"end":532.253,"text":"好沒關係那接下來我還有另外一個問題這也是跟公務人員的福利有關的我們知道其實現在台灣已經進入到高齡化的時代根據最新的統計就是2025年之後台灣每五個人就有一個人是65歲的老年人口已經進入到超高齡社會那進入到這樣超高齡社會的時代裡面我們就必須考慮到就是公務人員他可能這個也必須要奉養父母親"},{"start":533.914,"end":546.182,"text":"現在我們有釋清假但是我們釋清假是留職停薪就不像是育嬰假育嬰假的話還可以照顧小孩請申請育嬰假有留職給薪還可以有八成薪"},{"start":551.525,"end":570.419,"text":"那麼所以在這樣的一個情況之下我本席是認為說也要考慮到我們時代在改變我們整個的社會的狀況然後照顧年老的父母親其實也是公務員的作為子女的一個很重要的責任所以是不是有可能可以要修法將這個釋清價"},{"start":573.882,"end":577.283,"text":"沒有留職停薪的補助,這個涉及到勞工跟軍工教育的一點"},{"start":589.223,"end":608.683,"text":"我想委員的建議會長因為這一個適性假如果是要留職給薪的話必須要考慮到我們跟勞工的很平性的問題那我們現在有做一個大概有不少機關的同仁都有去使用就是說我們上下班有彈性上班"},{"start":609.464,"end":633.519,"text":"那個是不一樣的概念啦我知道當然是不一樣的概念可是當這個制度要做比較大的變革的時候我們要考量的因素就比較多可是我這裡答應委員我們會跟程序部在協調所以希望人事長是不是可以也是大概一個月可以給我提一個報告出來就是針對就是市清價如何改善然後要比照育嬰價"},{"start":635.956,"end":636.636,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":665.114,"end":666.963,"text":"好 謝謝翁委員 謝謝蘇人事長 兩個月提一個書面報告"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:33:18 - 10:44:27","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154965","gazette":{"lineno":575,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時33分）主席好，請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，我今天雖然沒有來現場聆聽您的口頭報告，但是我有認真的讀了您所提出來的業務報告，在這次的業務報告裡面，我關心的幾個議題，正好你在報告裡面也有提，所以我現在就想要來就教，有關於您在業務報告裡面提到的，像涉及組織精簡、公職律師等等問題。","首先，我想要講的就是，您這次業務報告的第一個重點就提到，未來我們的政府機關可能會要再多增加幾個部或是專責機關，像是有可能成立體育部，還有個資保護委員會籌備處其實已經在進行，未來可能會成立個資保護委員會，還有現在政府也可能會提出要成立新住民的專責機構，以及國家語言研究發展中心這個行政法人。那我想請問的就是，當政府或是民間呼籲要成立新部會時，新部會的成立勢必會影響到整個政府機關的組織架構、人員的增加，員額增加，經費也會增加，請問人事長，您對於這幾年我們陸陸續續做機關組織調整，增加這麼多的部會，或從部改成會，或從會提升為部，您的看法是什麼？您認為這對政府的員額、經費的支出會不會產生重大的影響？我就想聽聽看您的意見。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員提出這個議題，我們整個組織在調整，事實上是為了因應整個社會還有國際趨勢，像個資成立委員會，就是因為七、八年前歐盟成立GDPR，我們為了與他們接軌，所以也成立了個資籌備委員會，現在是成立籌備處的階段，它本身是一個獨立機關，大概有一點類似原能會這一種組織結構。至於體育發展部，大家也知道這幾年臺灣在運動賽事方面的表現都非常好，我們也希望從另外一個角度，提供全民更好的一個運動環境，培養國民健康的體魄，從這個角度來成立一個部。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，瞭解。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：至於新住民的部分，是大院裁示要求要成立一個專責機關。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，其實我的問題在於，現在的行政院組織法明定有14個部、8個會，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：9個會。"],["翁委員曉玲：未來要怎麼樣去做調整？是又要再把某一個部拉下來改成會嗎？如果按照你們現在講的，整個人力的管理要依照「當增則增，應減則減」的原則，那麼當人力增加了之後，哪些要減呢？你們有沒有一些整體的規劃？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得委員這個問題非常好，目前的規劃會成立一個……"],["翁委員曉玲：成立體育部之後呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：成立體育部之後，我們要修中央機關組織基準法還有行政院組織法，還有一個新的組織法規，目前規劃的方式是朝14增加到15，一個是組織變革的問題，一個是員額的問題，我坦白講，員額在我們的業務報告裡面就有提，當增則增，當減則減，因為我們會有一個總員額的上限，就是16萬900人，我們會在這個範圍內去移動，它不是淨增加，因為這一個新的部會會有淨增加，一樣，我們也會定期透過兩年一次的員額評鑑去減少，有些業務一定會有消有長。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我瞭解這個情況，但是就是以我們看到之前數發部的成立，基本上已經占用了我們不少的員額，現在又要再成立一個體育部，當然本人支持成立體育部，但是就是在整體國家總員額的調整，員額到底要增加，還是在維持現狀的情況之下，在其他機關做人力的刪減？我覺得這都是涉及到國家的整體發展。我們知道其實現在很多公務員叫苦連連，覺得他們的工作負擔都很大了，那麼如果未來因應好幾個部會要新成立，然後因此必須讓別的機關不能夠再進用人員，這我覺得會是個大問題。所以，我希望人事長可能要提出一個整個國家未來員額的調整方案、報告書之類的，畢竟我們已經很多年沒有調整，到底16萬900人是不是一個合理的數字？還是因應科技的發展、AI化之後，員額還應該要更往下降？這個部分應該要再做一個通盤檢討了。","接下來再進入另外一個問題，就是有關於公職律師的問題，本席在上禮拜五的總質詢有特別提到NCC編列的訴訟費用過高，因為業者不滿NCC所作的處分，所以紛紛提起行政訴訟，它的訴訟費用下年度還編了八百多萬，前兩年還有超過上千萬的訴訟費用。所以由這個角度來看，似乎NCC內部就真的要去聘請個公職律師，可能會比編列預算去付這麼高的訴訟費用都要來得經濟。我想請教的是，我們律師法修正通過，要增加公職律師，人事總處這邊有去瞭解目前到底有哪些機關有設置公職律師嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前健保署有提出增設兩名公職律師。"],["翁委員曉玲：只有健保署？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其他沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：那其他的機關呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：都沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：其他機關都沒有這個需求？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前還沒有提出來。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以對於公職律師……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他們可能要評估，然後可能要修編制表。"],["翁委員曉玲：我認為這個部分，人事總處這裡其實也可以去瞭解一下各機關的需求，而且要特別針對一些機關，他們浪費人民的納稅錢，編了很多的公帑去支應訴訟費用的這件事情，這些機關都要去考慮他們未來是不是要增設公職律師，這部分希望人事長這邊也要去瞭解目前公職律師的進用狀況，還有為什麼沒有人願意來當公職律師，這個部分可能需要一併考量。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個我跟委員補充一下，另外一個有在評估增設公職律師的就是國防部，因為它有很多的那個……"],["翁委員曉玲：不過法務部自己本身的法律專業的人才就很多了，這個我倒是認為不需要。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是國防部。"],["翁委員曉玲：好、沒關係，接下來我還有另外一個問題，這也是跟公務人員的福利有關的。我們知道其實現在臺灣已經進入到高齡化的時代，根據最新的統計，2025年之後，臺灣每5個人就有一個人是65歲的老年人口，已經進入到超高齡社會。進入到這樣超高齡社會的時代裡面，我們就必須考慮到公務人員可能也必須要奉養父母親，我知道現在我們有侍親假，但是我們的侍親假是留職停薪，就不像是育嬰假，育嬰假的話，還可以照顧小孩，申請育嬰假有留職給薪，還可以有八成薪。所以在這樣一個情況之下，本席是認為說，也要考慮到我們時代在改變，我們整個的社會的狀況，要照顧年老的父母親其實也是公務員作為子女的一個很重要的責任。所以是不是有可能可以修法，將侍親假的留職停薪改為比照育嬰假去辦理？就是同樣地，也是可以留職給薪，不曉得人事總處過去有沒有考慮過這個議題？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想委員的建議非常好，因為這個侍親假如果是要留職給薪的話，必須要考慮到我們跟勞工衡平性的問題。我們現在有做一個措施，大概不少機關的同仁都有去使用，就是我們上下班方面有彈性上班嘛……"],["翁委員曉玲：那個是不一樣的概念啦！這跟育嬰假……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我當然知道這是不一樣的概念，可是當這個制度要做比較大的變革的時候，我們要考量的因素就比較多，可是我這裡答應委員，我們會跟銓敘部再來協調……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以希望人事長是不是也是大概一個月可以給我提一個報告出來，就是針對侍親假如何改善，然後要比照育嬰假留職給薪的方式來處理？至於說給多少薪，我覺得這都是可以談，也要考慮到整個國家的經費預算，但是我認為這是一個好的方向，同時……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是不是委員給我們兩個月？因為我們還要協調國防部、勞動部，還有銓敘部。"],["翁委員曉玲：我覺得軍公教就跟勞工分開處理，那就給你們兩個月的時間，希望在年底之前，提出一份規劃報告書給我。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員、謝謝蘇人事長，兩個月提一個書面報告給翁委員。","接下來有請吳思瑤委員質詢，並在陳俊宇委員質詢後，我們休息。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","林思銘","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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主委謝謝今天大家對這個議題其實都滿關注的那也引起不少的風波我想主委國科會主要的任務不外乎第一推動全國整體的科技發展第二資源學術研究第三發展科學園區剛好這些任務教育部跟經濟部都有在做我想請問一下國科會你們與教育部經濟部這兩個部會在研究教學產業發展的一個需求這三個面向是怎麼分工"},{"start":44.645,"end":71.454,"text":"有分工可以分享一下嗎教育部支持我們全國各學校從大學到小學都有關聯那教學的部分是教育部主政但是研究特別是在大學做前瞻的基礎研究應用研究那是國科會在支持這是教學跟研究那跟經濟部的分工經濟部是注重在產業發展"},{"start":72.754,"end":87.754,"text":"所以我們國科會我們在管理科學園區的時候科學園區成功的一個很重要關鍵就是科學園區跟大學之間的研究是非常緊密結合因為要發展是科技產業科技產業如果沒有前端的科研是不可能有產業的發展"},{"start":88.935,"end":113.255,"text":"所以我們跟經濟部就互相協助在發展科學園區的過程當中也把大學的研發能量也結合園區的事業讓園區的科技產業的發展更為蓬勃大概就是這樣的這個分工好那我想問一下請問國科會學術研究的一個產出以結案為來計算一年大概有幾案案件數那個我們眾會數"},{"start":119.219,"end":132.232,"text":"請我們中衛署來回答跟委員報告如果是在年度執行中的計畫大概一萬五千件好那這些產出確實帶動產業發展的大概有幾案有沒有計算過"},{"start":134.008,"end":157.827,"text":"這一部分我們不會去計算我們大概有一些叫做產學合作的案子但是也不見得是只有產學合作的案子才會對產業有幫助我們有一些科技研發的成果其實是廠商直接會找學校找教授去做這個技術移轉所以也有一些技術移轉的這個方式那也有一些教授在教學之餘也會去協助產業擔任顧問"},{"start":159.608,"end":166.853,"text":"您認為學術的產出跟所謂的產業的發展有沒有落差?落差難免是有因為我們支持學術研究不見得全部都是應用型直接連結到產業有些是有社會貢獻有些是純粹科學的研究它是未來可能比較長期才會被社會所使用"},{"start":189.388,"end":203.685,"text":"所以發展成科技發展成技術所以我們很難去界定說一個學術研究的成果是不是對社會有利己的貢獻對產業有利己貢獻有時候是比較難衡量有些像AI的研究"},{"start":204.746,"end":226.045,"text":"過去很長的一段時間是社會覺得沒有直接的感受到AI研究的貢獻而是在十幾年前才發現說因為雲端科技因為台灣的半導體發展能夠訓練非常大的這種人工智慧的模型才發現說它的貢獻會非常的大所以有時候是經過長時間的研究累積的成果才會有貢獻的"},{"start":227.526,"end":252.523,"text":"那我想剛剛有聽到這個主委有一些表態那我想態度都良善但是我還是有一些問題想跟大家請問一起來探討那我想目前國科會日前國科會所你調整的永續三學門遭學界說不重視永續發展而且也發出了相關的聲明第一學術自由與公開討論是永續發展科技核心的一個價值我想這個部分的聲明您大概都有看過"},{"start":253.163,"end":281.849,"text":"他們也堅決的反對任何由上而下未經公開溝通的獨斷做法第二國科會應正視新政府對永續發展的近鄰挑戰政策任何對永續相關計畫的刪減與調整應公開透明的機制廣泛的跨領域做學界的一個溝通我想並建立一個共識我想這個部分剛剛您有所回應那我們還是希望學界目前所"},{"start":283.109,"end":304.095,"text":"發聲的這些聲明第一時間我們有看到幾個回應我想跟你探討一下第一個9月14回應國科會回應是支持跨域性質的學門研究永續防災與空間資訊等跨領域的學門投入資源有逐年增長剛剛你有說4.8億變成5.2億對吧"},{"start":307.639,"end":314.114,"text":"那我想將與學界共同的探討永續防災以及空間資訊的相關發展"},{"start":315.495,"end":328.059,"text":"那這樣徵詢學界的意見適度的調整當時是被批啊十問虛答後來9月16國科會又再一次的回應並無更動組織跟學門的規劃請該三學門的一個學者放心將儘速召開說明會跟學界還有我們國科會支持"},{"start":339.386,"end":351.162,"text":"跨領域性質的學門研究之立場聽取學界的一個建議那當時好像9月16第二次的聲明才有告一段落請問主委你覺得國科會做法錯了嗎"},{"start":354.621,"end":367.727,"text":"可能是引起誤解啦,我覺得我們學界關心永續學門的發展這個我完全是認同的我們應該要持續來凝聚學界的力量,持續發展"},{"start":369.813,"end":369.833,"text":"羅廷瑋議員"},{"start":395.399,"end":423.601,"text":"已經累積起來的研究的能量是希望協助他們更為健康的發展那對社會的貢獻會更為明顯好 我認為國科會在溝通不足的情況下嘗試拆解永續防災還有空間資訊等學問在被嚴正的抗議後試圖以增加經費來安撫不是試圖經費已經早就編列了好 那主委整篇書面報告提到了12個跨領域12個跨領域以後沒有列舉大概哪幾個領域"},{"start":424.642,"end":448.099,"text":"至少應該針對各學門跨領域整合列舉預計大概有哪幾個領域才對吧這就好像你去餐廳然後呢沒有menu沒有得選擇然後任由老闆給你吃什麼就吃什麼我想跨領域的研究重要性不言而喻國科會是否有計劃建立一套溝通的機制例如召開定期的召開會議以確保跟學界溝通交流"},{"start":449.779,"end":477.394,"text":"剛剛我們召委范委員已經提醒我們也非常關心我們會有一個比較正式的做法標準的做法不是只有針對這三個學問將來我們所有的處未來針對各個學問都開始會有這樣子的一個固定會議我們一定要公開就是討論公開公平透明的這些機制我們一定會把它建立起來希望我們整個學界都放心這樣"},{"start":478.214,"end":506.11,"text":"我想國科會有沒有清楚的路徑圖知道需要投入的前沿研究是什麼近鄰的永續是不分藍綠的共同目標那麼國科會在這個部分扮演的角色是什麼方向是什麼那個路徑圖有沒有出來大家只能瞎子摸象嗎能不能具體的回應國科會在這些領域中扮演的角色好我請我們林副主委他負責我們的近鄰辦公室"},{"start":508.161,"end":521.111,"text":"委員好,基本上來講我們現在有個近年科技方案的推動小組專門在規劃在行政院的層級各部會還有產業應該怎麼去推動近年科技另一方面我們現在因為總統有召開8月8日有召開氣候變遷的相關的會議"},{"start":525.354,"end":525.635,"text":"以上報告．"},{"start":543.112,"end":564.129,"text":"我想這些技術會如何與產業界需求相銜接確保研究能夠迅速轉為實際應用這是我們非常關切的部分針對這個特定的產業如再生能源經濟循環的相關領域我們設立專門的研究支持機制如果有具體有沒有有沒有這樣子的一個具體實際作為"},{"start":565.919,"end":566.099,"text":"好,好"},{"start":592.619,"end":610.09,"text":"我想學界的研究因為教育部的規定必須盡量去發表論文刊登相關的期刊但產業界的研發則是希望短期性的希望能夠力建效果就是上市場賺錢我想滋養企業才能廣大人才此時政府要做什麼"},{"start":610.43,"end":628.477,"text":"國科會如何在兩者之間找到平衡注進學界產業界的合作這就回到我一開始在問主委你們怎麼去分工嗎那如果在這個部分上如果做成兩邊的橋樑我想國科會是很需要在這個部分下以重力主委您覺得呢"},{"start":628.777,"end":654.415,"text":"我同意委員的看法我想我們跟大家分享有一個鐵證證的案例講一個很成功的案例跟大家分享中研院在新冠肺炎的流行之時成功開發出新冠快篩的抗體但限於設備無法進行量產化中研院釋出了抗體跟產業界合作讓這個產品與業界能夠進行永續不管是開發、量產"},{"start":655.856,"end":677.731,"text":"用於支持國家重大的防疫工作。我想眾人院在這樣研究發表的學術論文之外﹖亦達成善盡社會關鍵的責任任務﹖同時根據科技的基本法規範架構將抗體移轉所獲得的經費按比例分配給發明人研究團隊並投入更多的科學研究"},{"start":678.371,"end":703.96,"text":"此為產學研三營的一個案例但另外一個成功案例我們也是看到都是在新冠疫情由衛生福利部中醫研究所研發出的新冠1號主委您這個都知道嗎?知道我想也許案例跟業界合作專利技術計轉許多的台灣中藥廠商製造中藥複方水煎藥台灣新冠1號銷售國內外主委"},{"start":706.201,"end":731.96,"text":"國科會如何看待這類跨界的合作?我們非常鼓勵也就是說我們的科技研發包含科學的研究以及技術的發展這兩個我們是並重的科學的研究將來可能會產生長期對人類社會的貢獻那技術的發展是對我們產業立即的這個需求提供我們很重要的後盾讓我們的產業發展得很好這個我們都會鼓勵"},{"start":733.12,"end":733.26,"text":"謝謝羅廷瑋委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:31:33 - 10:44:14","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"154964","gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時31分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請吳主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委，謝謝。今天大家對這個議題都滿關注的，也引起不少風波，我想國科會主要的任務不外乎，第一，推動全國整體的科技發展；第二，支援學術研究；第三，發展科學園區。剛好這些任務，教育部跟經濟部都有在做，我想請問一下國科會，你們與教育部、經濟部這兩個部會，在研究、教學、產業發展的需求這三個面向上是怎麼分工？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有分工。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以分享一下嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。教育部支持我們全國各學校，從大學到小學都有關聯，教學的部分是教育部主政；但是研究，特別是在大學做前瞻的基礎研究、應用研究，那是國科會在支持，這是教學跟研究的分工。至於跟經濟部的分工，經濟部是注重在產業發展，所以我們國科會在管理科學園區的時候，科學園區成功的一個很重要的關鍵就是，科學園區跟大學之間的研究是非常緊密結合，因為要發展的是科技產業，科技產業如果沒有前端的科研是不可能有產業的發展，所以我們跟經濟部就互相協助，在發展科學園區的過程當中，也把大學的研發能量結合園區的事業，讓園區內科技產業的發展更為蓬勃，大概就是這樣的分工。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。我想請問一下國科會，學術研究的產出，以結案來計算，一年大概有幾案？"],["吳主任委員誠文：案件數那個部分，請本會綜規處來回答。"],["彭處長麗春：跟委員報告，如果是在年度執行中的計畫，大概一萬五千件。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。那這些產出確實帶動產業發展的大概有幾案，有沒有計算過？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一部分我們不會去計算，我們大概有一些產學合作的案子，但是也不見得只有產學合作的案子才會對產業有幫助；我們有一些科技研發的成果，其實是廠商直接會找學校、找教授去做技術移轉，所以也有一些是透過技術移轉的方式；也有一些教授，在教學之餘也會去協助產業擔任顧問，協助他們……"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你個人認為，你覺得學術的產出跟產業的發展有沒有落差？"],["吳主任委員誠文：落差難免有，因為我們支持學術研究不見得全部都是應用型，能夠直接連結到產業，有些是有社會貢獻，有些是純粹科學的研究，它是未來可能比較長期才會被社會所使用發展成技術，所以我們很難去界定說一個學術研究的成果是不是對社會有立即的貢獻或者對產業有立即的貢獻，有時候是比較難衡量。有些像AI的研究，過去很長的一段時間社會並沒有直接的感受到AI研究的貢獻，而是在十幾年前才發現，因為雲端科技，因為臺灣的半導體發展，能夠訓練非常大的這種人工智慧的模型，才發現它的貢獻會非常的大，所以有時候是經過長時間的研究累積的成果才會有貢獻。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好的。剛剛聽到主委有一些表態，我想態度都是良善的，但是我還是有一些問題想跟大家一起來探討。日前國科會所擬調整的永續三學門，遭學界說不重視永續發展，而且也發出了相關的聲明：「第一，學術自由與公開討論是永續科技發展的核心價值」，我想這個部分的聲明，您大概都有看過？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：他們也「堅決反對任何由上而下、未經公開溝通的獨斷作法。第二，國科會應正視新政府對永續發展與淨零挑戰的政策，任何針對永續相關計畫的刪減與調整，應透過公開透明的機制，與廣泛的跨領域學界溝通，並建立共識。」我想這個部分剛剛您有所回應，我們還是希望學界目前所發出的這些聲明，第一時間我們有看到幾個回應，我想跟你探討一下。第一個，9月14日國科會回應表示，支持跨域性質的學門研究，永續防災與空間資訊等跨領域的學門投入資源有逐年增長，剛剛你有說從4.8億變成5.2億，對吧？並表示將與學界共同探討永續防災以及空間資訊的相關發展，徵詢學界的意見適度的調整。國科會14日的回應被批是實問虛答，後來9月16日國科會又再一次回應表示，並無更動組織跟學門的規劃，請該三學門的學者放心，將儘速召開說明會向學界說明國科會持續支持跨領域性質學門及研究的立場，並聽取學界建言。當時好像是在9月16日國科會第二次的聲明之後，連署事件才告一段落。請問主委，你覺得國科會的作法錯了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可能是引起誤解，我覺得我們學界關心永續學門的發展，這個我完全是認同的，我們應該要持續來凝聚學界的力量，針對這些永續的議題，持續發展解決的方案。我們在會內，其實針對這個連署我們也立即反應，我們不會改變現在這個學門的狀況，自然處將來也會持續來協助這三個學門的發展，既然我們的經費已經逐年增加，所以當然絕對不會放棄這三個學門已經累積起來的研究能量，只是希望協助他們更為健康的發展，這樣對社會的貢獻會更為明顯。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。我認為國科會在溝通不足的情況下，嘗試拆解永續、防災及空間資訊等學門，在被嚴正的抗議後，試圖以增加經費來安撫。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是試圖，經費已經早就編列了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。主委，您在整篇書面報告提到了十二個跨領域，十二個跨領域後沒有列舉大概哪幾個領域，至少應該針對各學門跨領域整合列舉，預計大概有哪幾個領域才對吧？這就好像你去了餐廳，然後沒有menu，沒有得選擇，然後任由老闆給你吃什麼就吃什麼。我想跨領域研究的重要性不言而喻，國科會是否有計畫建立一套溝通的機制，例如定期的召開會議，以確保跟學界的溝通交流？"],["吳主任委員誠文：剛剛召委范委員已經提醒我們，我們會朝這個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：也非常關心，對。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是是是，我們會有一個比較正式的作法、標準的作法，不是只有針對這三個學門，將來我們所有的處……"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，未來牽涉到的學門都開始會有這樣子，會有固定的會議？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，我們就是一定要公開討論嘛，這些公開、公平、透明的機制，我們一定會把它建立起來，希望我們整個學界都放心。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。我想國科會有沒有清楚的路徑圖，知道需要投入的前沿研究是什麼？淨零永續是不分藍綠的共同目標，那麼國科會在這個部分扮演的角色是什麼、方向是什麼，那個路徑圖有沒有出來，大家只能瞎子摸象嗎？能不能具體的回應，國科會在這些領域中扮演的角色。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我請林副主委說明，他負責我們的淨零辦公室。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["林副主任委員法正：委員好，基本上我們現在有個淨零科技方案的推動小組專門規劃在行政院的層級，各部會還有產業應該怎麼去推動淨零科技。另一方面，因為總統8月8日有召開氣候變遷相關的會議，所以我們現在在推動一個氣候變遷調適科研，我們也有一個推動小組現在在進行當中，應該是明年會成案，所以我們會同時從淨零科技，還有氣候變遷調適科研這兩個方向來推動，這是國科會應該做的事情，以上報告。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想這些技術如何與產業界需求相銜接，確保研究能夠迅速轉為實際應用，這是我們非常關切的部分。針對這個特定的產業，如再生能源、經濟循環的相關領域，我們設立專門的研究支持機制，具體有沒有？有沒有這樣子的一個具體實際作為？"],["林副主任委員法正：我們淨零科技推動小組現在有規劃幾個複合式的議題，這個議題推出來之後，我們會要求各部會要照這個推動的內容去編列預算，我們這些議題其實都是找國內相關的學者，還有產業界來談……"],["羅委員廷瑋：產業界也有？"],["林副主任委員法正：對，談出臺灣最需要的淨零科技，以上補充。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我想學界的研究，因為教育部的規定，必須儘量去發表論文、刊登相關的期刊，但產業界的研發案則是希望短期性的，希望能夠立見效果，就是上市場賺錢。我想滋養企業才能廣納人才，此時政府要做什麼？國科會如何在兩者之間找到平衡，促進學界、產業界的合作？這就回到我一開始在問主委的，你們怎麼去分工嘛？在這個部分上，如果做成兩邊的橋梁，我想國科會是很需要在這個部分下以重力，主委覺得呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我同意，同意委員的看法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們跟大家分享一個鐵錚錚的案例，講一個很成功的案例跟大家分享。中研院在新冠肺炎的流行之時，成功開發出新冠快篩的抗體，但是限於設備無法進行量產化，中研院釋出了抗體跟產業界合作，讓這個產品與業界能夠進行永續，不管是開發、量產，用於支持國家重大的防疫工作，我想中研院在這樣研究發表的學術論文之外，亦達成善盡社會關鍵的責任任務，同時根據科技的基本法規範架構，將抗體移轉所獲得的經費按比例分配給發明人、研究團隊，並投入更多的科學研究，實為產、學、研三贏的一個案例。但另外一個成功案例，我們也看到都是在新冠疫情，由衛生福利部中醫研究所研發出的清冠一號。主委，您這個都知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：知道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想也循案例跟業界合作，專利技術技轉，許多的臺灣中藥廠商製造中藥複方水煎藥、臺灣清冠一號銷售國內外。主委，國科會如何看待這類跨界的合作？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們非常鼓勵，也就是我們的科技研發包含科學的研究以及技術的發展，這兩個我們是並重的，科學的研究將來可能會產生長期對人類社會的貢獻，技術的發展是對我們產業立即的需求，提供很重要的後盾，讓我們的產業發展得很好，這個我們都會鼓勵。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，所以今天我們舉出案例然後探討，我們真的很希望主委這個態度一定要做好，對學界的溝通、對於產業界溝通一定要重視，我想後續做出一些補償，亡羊補牢的動作，你剛剛也有答應，我們希望能夠看到具體的、實際的而且永續的，跟產學界一起好好的坐下來談一談。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，同意，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。"],["主席：好，吳主委請回，謝謝羅廷瑋委員質詢。","我們再來請葛如鈞委員質詢，等一下吳沛憶委員質詢完，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:12:26","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:38:29+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154963","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","duration":746,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:26:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be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主委你剛剛講的我都可以跟你講黑海哥在蘇克兩個最大的外送平台現在光跟我們服務處不要說跟你們了服務處 很多的一個所謂服務案件的申訴大量刮開了所以我們認為你們的態度一直讓大家不清不楚不明不白"},{"start":209.667,"end":211.608,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":234.124,"end":234.844,"text":"我們的餐飲業者呢"},{"start":263.544,"end":288.641,"text":"餐飲業者疑慮是什麼這個抽成的%會不會提高這是餐飲業對阿抽成%會不會提高阿一定嘛因為剩一間嘛剩一間而已嘛而且大家要擠到這個窄門嘛他是不是會把條件拉高一定嘛條件拉高誰受害誰受害"},{"start":289.91,"end":315.399,"text":"業者受害消費者也受害因為業者會轉嫁在消費者身上就這麼簡單所以公平交易會造成多大的恐慌再來咧消費者的疑慮呢成本增加這個消費的這個成本也會增高是啊"},{"start":317.498,"end":333.237,"text":"是啊所以消費者所擔心全部公盲都吃掉在餐飲業者身上所增加的在外送員身上所增加的全部就轉嫁在消費者身上就這樣啊所以"},{"start":338.612,"end":363.421,"text":"外送平台剛好這三主要扮演角色外送員、餐飲業者、消費者這三個重點都跟你說如果合併之後公盲到期會面臨的狀況就是這麼嚴重所以如果我們公平會的態度沒有拉出來"},{"start":364.901,"end":391.153,"text":"當然大家就會質疑啊所以主委我覺得我們台獨要跟我請測不過委員我們程序還是要照法定程序當然法定程序就是說你申報結合那你程序不齊備還是要通知法這些人就齊備才能進入審議的程序主委你們都是公廷署所以所有的人民才會覺得公平會在幹什麼"},{"start":392.438,"end":414.939,"text":"你們在講程序的同時要把你的原則一併提到就是你外送平台你有權利依照程序來申辦這樣的一個合併可是我公平會一樣我會依照哪幾個原則嚴格審慎來審議這樣的一個合併案"},{"start":419.042,"end":446.277,"text":"如果你這兩個很清楚把它在一個平台當中正確的讓媒體知道誰會質疑你公平會的態度你公平會一直都講程序我們也一直談我們審查的面向就是剛才委員提到的這幾點這個我們審查的你是有問才講啊有問才講啊你們對外講都說他沒送進來他還沒送進來"},{"start":449.298,"end":463.597,"text":"以為還沒送進來就沒你的事還沒送進來是他程序還沒送進來不代表他沒在做相關的動作所以你更應該把你的態度公平會的態度拿高"},{"start":464.881,"end":490.802,"text":"所以為什麼我們每一次在公平會在做質詢在做預算審查的時候我們對公平會有那麼多的意見是因為你們的態度都不明你們態度都曖昧讓民眾很擔心讓消費者很擔心而且每一次所提到的任何正義性的問題你們最後都查無證據來結案"},{"start":492.924,"end":521.032,"text":"那民眾要你們幹什麼?好 再一個主委你如果加強要查緝 廣告不實的部分現在所有的媒體越來越多不同的一些宣傳手法那在這個部分廣告不實其實會造成很多消費者的損害"},{"start":522.432,"end":522.752,"text":"主動嗎?來,你們今年主動查了幾件?"},{"start":546.176,"end":547.236,"text":"910件 910件 這個比例也差太多了吧"},{"start":565.241,"end":586.861,"text":"人家檢舉910件 你們才主動查110件好 你們110件主動查查的總共有幾件 有處分我們去網路監控有一萬多件那看出來有問題的我們去查的主動的有一千多件一萬多件 然後最後釐清之後算"},{"start":587.882,"end":589.102,"text":"請問有幾件處分?大概40件左右"},{"start":617.051,"end":632.618,"text":"所以嘛你看喔查控從網路查查一萬多件最後一千多件最後正式立案110件最後有處分的40件這什麼受理啊"},{"start":634.189,"end":634.749,"text":"910件民眾檢舉請問最後處分有幾件"},{"start":654.715,"end":666.323,"text":"今年查的今年還在就是今年處理的今年還在查是所以今年900億之間都是今年的嗎我們我們剛提到是說今年收辦的有"},{"start":667.674,"end":669.735,"text":"910件目前還在查而且已經有處分的"},{"start":688.291,"end":690.112,"text":"10月份,今天是9月30號,剩10月11、12,所以現在1000多件才處分40件"},{"start":711.072,"end":737.908,"text":"我剛剛還這個錯誤的訊息喔本來以為110件處分40件現在不是喔是1000多件處分40件喔是這樣嗎一個是收辦的案件一個是處分的案件喔對啊就是1000多件處分40件嘛不是110件處分40件那我們收辦的案件喔所以你們自己也搞不清楚嗎你把資料再送到我辦公室"},{"start":739.429,"end":744.443,"text":"你們這個比例差太多了 難怪民眾會對我們沒信心了 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:26:03 - 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請人事長那請會長工作人員今天好像大家總召 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認滿3年就有所謂的職稱職務這個人事長 如果你覺得這樣也是合理嗎"},{"start":265.016,"end":279.97,"text":"業聘雇人員目前的規定是一年一聘那三年以後轉身分我倒是覺得這個大家可能沒有辦法接受啦好 謝謝啊這個人事長終於講一句腰桿比較挺直的話"},{"start":284.995,"end":313.964,"text":"本期在這裡希望我們的口譯歌不要再現一天到晚都有口譯歌當時109年在推動這個品月人員人事條例就是要把所有的這些讓我們的國家所有的這些首長變成慣老闆我要用誰就用誰連基層的整個骨幹的體制都要來動搖所以以後只要奉承上意"},{"start":314.889,"end":315.089,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":338.391,"end":354.294,"text":"我們經公教大藝審議委員會基本上我們參議的大概會中央機關還有地方機關還有一些專家協者進來我們只是提整個條新的一個參考讓行政院"},{"start":354.874,"end":355.235,"text":"勞工的這個部分"},{"start":376.429,"end":378.991,"text":"我想我們最低工資審議委員會都有納入基層的勞工的代表"},{"start":405.831,"end":418.399,"text":"對於軍公教員工待遇審議委員會目前一直都沒有繼承員工的這些代表是不是我們可以把他納入讓未來的考量能夠更周延更完整可以嗎"},{"start":419.212,"end":439.492,"text":"我非常支持總召會的想法事實上我們最近就是在研擬條帶的法制化這裏面有納入基層的公跟教法制化是非常的重要為了調新法制化是非常的重要國家的骨幹"},{"start":444.827,"end":472.948,"text":"這些軍公教人員撐起整個國家的所有的他的組織他的制度他的施行服務全國的鄉親未來這個整體的薪資調整本席建議以民生物價指數作為最主要的參考指標把它法制化以後我想未來條件就不再是一個恩給"},{"start":476.124,"end":499.692,"text":"執政者想要做就做,不想做就不做。這樣子既不公平也不公開,也沒有透明,都會黑箱。什麼時間到了,什麼正投稿,這個四年一任選舉到了,又開始開支票加薪等等。這個都不是國家之福,不管誰執政都是一樣。"},{"start":500.932,"end":529.1,"text":"所以本席認為應該要把它法制化以後時候到了就是調該調整就調整不要是變成一個大家可能講這個恩給制度啊這個黃恩浩蕩啊現在要調整了這個都是不應該的我想這個部分請這個人事長做一個參考另外當然本席會追蹤啦接下來就是這個六都跟非六都只等不同的問題"},{"start":530.783,"end":558.062,"text":"這一造成所有這些非六都的地方要如何留才如何留住人才啊固然有一個國家考試有一個綁六年啊還有綁三年或是六年但是呢在偏鄉地區啊往往就是啊我們培養了很多的公務員在這裡他學會了也懂了時間到了就走了"},{"start":558.951,"end":559.471,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":591.703,"end":598.237,"text":"請問同職不同等 同工不同從 這樣子可以為偏鄉留住人才嗎 請回答"},{"start":599.206,"end":623.611,"text":"我非常認同總召的看法事實上我們過去這幾年有跟情緒部組成工作圈我們在解決這個問題或許也不如總召想的一次把所有的都改可是我們是採一個區段一個區段像以前的縣政府的科長是八指等後來我們就調為八到九"},{"start":624.271,"end":652.449,"text":"讓他可以去參加檢任生人考讓他有機會升到副處長還有處長因為我覺得之前的設計有一些改善我們就是採區塊區塊來那剛才總召所提的六都跟會六都的這些職等事實上我們也是有納在工作圈裡面在討論有大概建議盡量讓地方的這些"},{"start":653.809,"end":682.797,"text":"副主官地方政府一級單位這些副主官能夠跨官等提早受訓這樣的話也為地方培育更多儲備的人才但是呢本席知道你從八到九職等但是呢這個還是不夠明確還是要讓地方的這些留在偏鄉的這些人才"},{"start":684.292,"end":684.332,"text":"主席"},{"start":695.993,"end":696.013,"text":"謝謝總召"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:21:07 - 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行政院公務人員人工智慧知能實施計畫整個計畫大概有五大內容包括高階人才的AI共識營包括AI推動食物種子人員的課程"},{"start":145.277,"end":167.518,"text":"包括公務人員AI通識課程另外還有公務機關運用AI工作坊以及這個公務機關AI應用成果競賽我看這整個大概這個人工智慧智能實施計畫大概就這五大工作重點其中有三個重點是我們人種的工作對不對"},{"start":169.569,"end":175.512,"text":"有關這個公務機關運用AI工作坊跟這個公務機關AI應用成果計畫這個是競賽這個是屬於抒發部其他三個都是我們人總的業務對不對好所以我就"},{"start":184.054,"end":212.58,"text":"因為這樣子所以我就來檢視說我們齁這三個我們人種的重要的工作在這個提升這個人工智慧智能實施計畫裡面我們人種的重要工作應該最重要工作就是三個目標啦齁就是就是高階人才的AI共識營跟這個AI推動食物種子人員課程跟這個公務人員AI的通識課程對不對這是這三個工作嘛齁那我們來一一檢視啦齁"},{"start":215.727,"end":224.413,"text":"有關這個高階人才AI共識營我們現在辦過了首長部會首長的共識營對不對要辦過副首長的共識營接下來是要辦三級機關"},{"start":233.072,"end":259.171,"text":"山崎機關首長今天下午要辦今天下午要辦今天下午好那這個辦理的目的那跟AI計畫他本身我這樣看這辦這個共識營很好但是有一個問題就是說這個看起來你們這個辦這個共識營你們沒有KPI你們沒有定說你們這個到底要達成什麼樣的核心目標我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":260.694,"end":266.756,"text":"接下來好像你們還要辦科長級以上的總值人才認證班對不對你們大概估計的期程跟人數大概是多少"},{"start":292.392,"end":299.76,"text":"我們今年會辦一起先來示範看,今年要看因為相關部會36個,每年辦6期我委員報告齁"},{"start":307.549,"end":322.059,"text":"人事總署辦的是對教務單位找人來,然後數位發展部辦的是找資訊人員來辦,因為我們有分工,我們有分工,好,沒關係,你一期讓你示範看看啦,示範看看,但是我之前說課長中央部會這麼多課長,你辦第一期好像36個人,我是覺得太少啦,"},{"start":333.107,"end":339.31,"text":"首長的公視營都轉播了,首長都要出席了你現在科長的部分,這麼多科長,36個人來參加而已這你們去考慮啦,要去建議啦再來,我們說的第2點有關AI實務總指援員課程的部分我在這裡大概要請教啦就是說你們這些課程我看了你們很多的計畫啦尤其是應用趨勢及實作課程的部分"},{"start":362.571,"end":373.263,"text":"我看你們這個這個你們這些計畫你們有沒有納入這個機關自己辦的教育訓練這個部分是不是在納入你們計畫中各機關自辦的還是你們這個計畫只是你們自己辦的"},{"start":377.233,"end":400.599,"text":"我跟委員報告我們有分兩個區塊人事總署辦的是屬於通案型的應用通案型的我賣出的是會議紀錄自動化啦還是相關法規還是大家補費都會用到我們偏向這一種共用型的那各個機關你想環境部也好他們就自己辦他們自己跟業務相關的我先問啦齁您應用趨勢及實作課程你們預計辦理多少場"},{"start":408.663,"end":412.488,"text":"總處 運用趨勢及時做課程的部分我們是六班 辦理六班嗎"},{"start":426.735,"end":426.895,"text":"沈發惠議員"},{"start":456.818,"end":472.981,"text":"有這個行政院所屬機關有推動公務人員終身學習的實施要點也就是說我們公務人員有學習時數的要求對不對20秒鐘我看你們這個辦法裡面你們有一個行政院在112年12月26日有一個函就是說這20個小時裡面學習時數其中10個小時"},{"start":484.884,"end":507.13,"text":"就是比較必修的啦齁你都20但是有10件事你要必修必修包括當前政府重要政策環境教育民主價值課程性別平等連政府服務倫理人權教育轉型正義行政中立多元族群公民參與我在你們網站上面看到這個也你們列出也全部都列出來了"},{"start":508.325,"end":535.808,"text":"那我們AI有沒有可能納入?進那整個menu會把它納進來會把它納進這個10個小時之內變成必修課程我們現在還在檢討是加入這裡盡量就是來調整把AI會加在這10小時裡面加在這10小時裡面它會變成必修課程中的一個選擇一個選項這個部分就是說就是本席這個要特別在這裡"},{"start":537.031,"end":537.491,"text":"接下来"},{"start":566.394,"end":585.815,"text":"還有一個就是說我們是不是能夠將AI的公務人力納入這個我們的這個元額評鑑的重點我們按照這個從101年開始每辦理每兩年都辦理一次元額評鑑對不對我們現在是113年的元額評鑑所以我們下一次的元額評鑑計畫是115年開始的對不對"},{"start":589.178,"end":605.933,"text":"有沒有可能把這個這個納入這個把AI的這個這個運用吼納入我們的這個言語評鑑也一定會因為我們今年113年已經有幾個場次我們就是請AI畫面領域的專家跟我們一起去做言語評鑑"},{"start":607.514,"end":610.497,"text":"這個部分因為我們原本的這個有關這個原額評鑑的重點裡面我們評鑑重點裡面原本有一個這個內部一級單位的這個業務盤點本來有提到業務數位資訊化的情形"},{"start":623.991,"end":624.391,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":639.565,"end":667.634,"text":"那這個我簡單講我整理一下我今天整個要求我希望人事總署能夠予以回應就是說第一個就是我們AI計畫這個整個新的這個AI計畫它的這個成效要定期的盤點可以嗎好定期盤點第二個就是把AI列入這個公務員的這個學習必修課程這個你剛剛答應了嘛4小時以內大概什麼時候會修改這個"},{"start":676.838,"end":688.193,"text":"第三個就是要這個把這個AI納入我剛所講的115年度的這個這個元額評鑑的計畫裡面應該要把AI納入好不好可以謝謝沈委員也謝謝蘇人事長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:09:27 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10:21:01","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154961","gazette":{"lineno":459,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時9分）主席，我們請人事長。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：好，請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：人事長早安。今天早上很多委員，大家大概都針對有關AI的部分來跟我們人事總處做溝通。看起來因為我們賴總統的宣示，還有行政院卓院長的一些上位計畫，現在使得人事總處變成我們政府推動AI智能提升的一個核心的單位，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，主要人總在推的時候，我們都有請數位發展部一起進來……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為這樣政府協同的腳步會一致。"],["沈委員發惠：對啦，因為這個有好幾個層次嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：就政府本身，尤其是公務人員……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，這是我們的主體、我們主責……"],["沈委員發惠：對，AI這部分變成你們的核心業務了。賴總統也多次提到，現在要讓每一位首長、每一位公務人員，大家都具備人工智慧的知能，這個是賴總統的目標。我看我們卓院長，他在520宣示就職的時候就宣示自己是行動AI創新內閣，並且具體的在6月6號，我們行政院就核定了一個提升行政院公務人員人工智慧知能實施計畫，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：6月6號核定了嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是，6月初6，520就職，然後6月6號就核定。"],["沈委員發惠：核定提升行政院公務人員人工智慧知能實施計畫，這整個計畫大概有五大內容，包括高階人才的AI共識營、AI推動實務種子人員的課程、公務人員AI通識課程，另外還有公務機關運用AI工作坊，以及公務機關AI應用成果競賽，我看大概就這五大工作重點，而其中有三個重點是我們人總的工作，對不對？有關這個公務機關運用AI工作坊跟公務機關AI應用成果計畫競賽部分是屬於數發部；其他三個都是我們人總的業務，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好，因為這樣子，所以在提升人工智慧知能實施計畫裡面，我就來檢視這三個我們人總重要的工作，人總最重要的工作就是三個目標啦！就是高階人才的AI共識營跟AI推動實務種子人員課程，跟公務人員AI通識課程，就是這三個工作，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：那我們來一一檢視啦！第一個，有關高階人才AI共識營，我們現在辦過了部會首長的共識營對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，7月30號辦過。"],["沈委員發惠：對，副首長的共識營也辦過對不對？接下來是要辦三級機關首長？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：今天下午要辦。"],["沈委員發惠：今天下午要辦嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，今天下午。"],["沈委員發惠：好。這個辦理的目的，跟AI計畫本身……我這樣看起來，辦這個共識營很好，但是有一個問題就是辦這個共識營你們沒有KPI啊！你們沒有訂到底要達成什麼樣的核心目標！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一下……"],["沈委員發惠：關鍵績效指標沒有啊！共識營的部分。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實我們現在辦共識營，第一個就是先解決知不知道、會不會及需不需要三個層次的問題。"],["沈委員發惠：這個我知道，因為時間的關係，接下來好像你們還要辦科長級以上的種子人才認證班對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：你們大概估計的期程以及人數大概是多少？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們今年會辦1期，先來試辦……"],["沈委員發惠：試辦？好。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：今年要看，因為相關部會……"],["沈委員發惠：多少人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：36個。"],["沈委員發惠：36個？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：明年會辦6期。"],["沈委員發惠：我們部會這麼多科長，你們只有讓36個人參加？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，人事總處辦的是從業務單位找人來；數位發展部辦的是找資訊人員來，因為我們有分工。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道有分開，兩個完全不一樣的。好，沒關係，1期讓你們試辦看看，但中央的部會這麼多科長，你辦第1期只有36個人，我是覺得太少了。首長的共識營全部的首長都要出席了，現在科長的部分，這麼多科長才36個人來參加而已，這你們去考慮啦，我是給你建議啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：再來，剛才說的第二點，有關AI實務種子人員課程的部分，我要請教你們，這些課程我看了你們很多的計畫，尤其是應用趨勢及實作課程的部分，這些計畫你們有沒有納入機關自己辦的教育訓練？各機關自辦的這個部分是不是納入你們計畫之中，還是這個計畫只是你們自己辦的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，我們有分兩個區塊，人事總處辦的是屬於通案型的應用，通案型就好像是會議紀錄自動化啦，還是相關法規等，是每個部會都會用到的，我們偏向這一種共用型的。各個機關像環境部也好，他們就自己辦與自己業務相關的……"],["沈委員發惠：好，我先問啦，你們應用趨勢及實作課程預計辦理多少場？多少班？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：總處喔？"],["沈委員發惠：對，應用趨勢及實作課程的部分。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：總處目前也是6班啦！"],["沈委員發惠：6班？辦理6班嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為總處在辦的時候，我們還要考慮跟數位發展部還有各個部會辦的，因為那些人我們擔心會有重疊，所以我會利用這個機會……"],["沈委員發惠：好啦，因為AI對我們來說是一個新的業務啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以對我來說你們有做都很好，但是重點是你們做完之後都要評估績效啦，這個是最重要的，因為是新的業務嘛！但是我比較關心的是現在行政院所屬機關有推動公務人員終身學習的實施要點，也就是公務人員有學習時數的要求，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，近20小時。"],["沈委員發惠：20小時嘛！我看按照這個辦法，你們行政院112年12月26日有一個函，就是這20個小時的學習時數裡，其中有10個小時就像是必修的，總共20小時但是有10個小時要必修，必修包括當前政府重大政策、環境教育、民主價值課程、性別平等、廉政與服務倫理、人權教育、轉型正義、行政中立、多元族群、公民參與，我在你們網站上面看到你們也全部都列出來了，那AI有沒有可能納入？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在正在規劃，明年會把它納進來。"],["沈委員發惠：會把它納進這10個小時之內變成必修課程？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們現在還在檢討加入這裡儘量來調整，把AI加在這10小時裡面。"],["沈委員發惠：加在這10小時裡面嘛？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["沈委員發惠：它會變成必修課程中的一個選擇、一個選項嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這個部分就是本席要特別在這裡跟你提的，因為我看你們e等公務園學習平臺上面目前羅列的，大概剛剛我所講的各項性別平等、轉型正義的這些全部都列在上面，但是有關AI的部分卻是沒有，當然這也是新的業務，我希望能夠納入所謂10小時的必修課程裡面，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可以。"],["沈委員發惠：好。接下來還有一個，我們是不是能夠將AI的公務人力納入我們員額評鑑的重點？我們從101年開始，每兩年都辦理一次員額評鑑，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：現在是113年的員額評鑑嘛，所以我們下一次的員額評鑑計畫是115年開始，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：有沒有可能把這個納入，把AI的運用納入我們的員額評鑑？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員一定會，因為我們（今）113年已經有幾個場次，我們就是請AI方面領域的專家，跟我們一起去做員額評鑑。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這個部分因為我們原本有關員額評鑑的評鑑重點裡面有一個內部一級單位的業務盤點，本來有提到業務數位資訊化的情形，但業務數位資訊化就很廣泛了，我希望在業務數位資訊化裡面，既然我們是AI行動內閣，那就應該特別把AI作為我們評鑑的重點之一，可不可以？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這一定要的。"],["沈委員發惠：簡單講，我整理一下今天整個要求，我希望人事總處能夠予以回應，第一個就是我們新的AI計畫成效要定期盤點，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["沈委員發惠：第二個就是把AI列入公務員的學習必修課程，這個你剛剛答應了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：10小時以內。"],["沈委員發惠：對，10小時以內，大概什麼時候會修改這個？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：年底討論，目標是明年1月1號……"],["沈委員發惠：好。第三個就是要把AI納入我剛剛所講的115年度的員額評鑑計畫裡面，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可以。"],["沈委員發惠：好，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝沈委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員，也謝謝蘇人事長。接下來請傅總召崐萁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","林思銘","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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的基礎研究跟重要的研究調查的話那其實你"},{"start":124.497,"end":124.958,"text":"同意?"},{"start":124.958,"end":125.018,"text":"同意"},{"start":139.434,"end":139.454,"text":"范雲"},{"start":156.11,"end":171.301,"text":"主委應該知道要叫學者連署非常困難吧尤其是衝上這個國科會國科會是他的研究資源的來源沒有人想得罪國科會主委過去有連署過就是挑戰國科會的各種聲明嗎"},{"start":174.992,"end":196.587,"text":"主委以前是申請哪個處的研究經費?像我是人文處我是工程處好您工程處有好多科您是申請哪一科?微電子那如果今天有人說你們那一科就是不大了解到底在做什麼應該把它放到自然處跟人文處猜一猜你會不會覺得蠻生氣的?"},{"start":198.088,"end":212.655,"text":"應該要先經過討論沒錯對一定要經過討論嘛而且這個討論不是只找學門召集人來討論嘛對不對那這個對您的影響是什麼把你的研究領域從工程數掉到自然數甚至到人文數對您的影響會是什麼"},{"start":216.415,"end":243.633,"text":"你的社群就可能就是審查的人員審查的人就不一樣嘛各位審查的人不一樣對我們學者來講是多大的事完全無法預測譬如說您今天在做的您是做電機的嘛相關那個研究審查人員完全換了甚至你投入10年的研究就拿不到經費了這不是學者甚至跟他的薪水無關喔他的研究經費就受到很大的影響所以知識體大嘛"},{"start":244.734,"end":271.002,"text":"我瞭解他們擔心的事所以看來主委今天到目前為止都跟我同步那我想我綜合這麼多的陳情人的資訊那當然就是新聞就是說大家都有看到了那這裡面我也主動請教了學界我比較尊重的就是說不同的朋友那包含涉及這三個跨領域的跟不涉及的就是我覺得有四大問題第一個就是三個跨領域學們面臨肢解與重組"},{"start":273.303,"end":295.575,"text":"有部分真的是叫肢解了請他們猜到自然科甚至有一些空間資訊或什麼的我想細節就不講第二個資源投入被緊縮就是您剛剛講的預算增加很多人已經挑戰你們是把部會的一些錢放進去那其實不是歸純學術研究的第三個眾多中鋼計畫面臨刪減中鋼計畫主委應該很了解中成鋼要計畫"},{"start":302.119,"end":318.651,"text":"他是競爭型的而且要準備個兩三年才能提出那學者們舉證立例你們已經在進行第一個把這個航向南海原本是11這是海洋研究111年到114年經費現在1115年可能無法延續第二個國土空間綱要也被影響"},{"start":327.897,"end":342.977,"text":"這些所謂忠誠綱要加起來的經費是4.577億他涉及到下面多少研究助理多少人一旦沒有給他經費這些人就是回家吃自己或者他必須要找新的主題了甚至研究生"},{"start":343.778,"end":366.732,"text":"還有LTSER長期社會生態研究這個也是基礎研究這個表面上一下看不到市場性可是對我們的不管是永續跟各方面都有幫助那原本我們聽到的就是有彰化站跟翡翠站這好不容易建立的社會生態研究的點那你們主張經費刪減然後"},{"start":369.714,"end":385.852,"text":"本來學者討論了半年要增加發展的東海岸站據說你們已經主張不用討論了因為就認為甚至就是處長說出不知道認為學者為什麼要做這樣的研究"},{"start":386.912,"end":400.582,"text":"有沒有這樣事情你們待會再說所以這麼中綱計畫面臨刪減那甚至不只是這三個領域的還有2030年跨世代年輕學者方案這個一年其實用的錢不多1.5億我看去112年度1722個年輕學者申請只有888人拿到"},{"start":408.388,"end":423.743,"text":"這個非常重要因為年輕學者可能是因為系主任跟他說有這個經費他不去申請國外拿到博士就回來了結果據說你們覺得年輕學者為什麼要給他特別鼓勵呢他很優秀就很優秀跟年齡無關"},{"start":424.684,"end":445.674,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":446.294,"end":470.714,"text":"第4個大家最質疑的事情不是不能做計劃經費刪減增加應該要有嚴謹的評估有清楚的報告讓大家知道為什麼這中間有一個討論過程所以決策過程被認為既粗暴又不透明是目前的癥結點那我想剛剛都已經講到了這個連署三天之內有650人"},{"start":472.075,"end":498.308,"text":"裡面有四位院士兩位校長我也在看到這個事情9月16日我認為我應該要正式跟你們索資因為我是立法院裡面少數申請過你們國科會經費看得懂你們在做什麼的我去索資了你們索資的第一個回我說本會議於9月16日新聞稿中澄清並無更動組織或學門之規劃"},{"start":501.192,"end":528.096,"text":"可是呢我後來又再次所知你們第二份就變了就說沒有正式會議請問到底有沒有會議是有會議但不正式還是你第一份所講的沒有沒有會議完全沒有會議完全沒有所以我們第一時間好那等一下你說完全沒有會議對不對對正式非正式會議都沒有沒有"},{"start":529.86,"end":534.776,"text":"主委是否知情?有人想要左手規劃這件事情,您是否知情?"},{"start":537.683,"end":565.302,"text":"市長有跟我討論是私底下討論說怎麼樣能夠我們討論是說怎麼樣能夠增進我們現在這三個學門他們研究的成效他的意思就是說要調整嗎您知情他要調整沒有要調整第一件事就是要進行所以您知情他認為這三個學門的效率不夠是不是"},{"start":566.222,"end":585.722,"text":"不是效率不夠,是說我們怎麼樣協助我們這些研究的學者們能夠增進他們的研究成效。那為什麼其他的社會學們不需要增進研究成效,就是他們需要增進研究成效?所有學們都要啊。所以所有的都要?但是自然處他的業務,這是他們的業務。所以您有沒有授權自然處處長進行?"},{"start":587.715,"end":603.046,"text":"我有提醒我們要進行溝通你有提醒要進行溝通所以現在是自然處長沒有接受您的提醒不是沒有接受因為還沒有進行溝通那個連署就出現了所以我們只好還沒有進行溝通所以這樣子聽起來是自然處長"},{"start":608.171,"end":621.486,"text":"報告委員我們處長也是很用心他是要協助他其實並沒有任何的決策還沒有對外宣布的時候那就出現這個事我當然也是覺得非常遺憾"},{"start":621.946,"end":622.006,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":636.903,"end":654.032,"text":"您知不知悉我們自然處長曾經講了這樣的話有不少白紙黑字講有不少PI皆是在其原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下之上述三學門您知悉還是不知悉這個應該不是這樣講吧白紙黑字事後我可以給你看您知悉還是不知悉"},{"start":667.847,"end":682.286,"text":"這只有一種嗎?知悉還是不知悉?我覺得不是這樣講啦那您就是覺得他這樣講不對但是您知悉是這樣嗎?他不是這樣講那他是怎麼樣講?我提到"},{"start":685.663,"end":711.543,"text":"自然處長跟我提的只是怎麼樣去增進那您知不知其他白紙黑字就是寫了這樣的東西這是一個反彈的根源啊你今天如果說我是做性別研究跨領域性別研究的學者都是在原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下肢性別研究的性別研究學一定是跳腳你把別人講成二流學者欸這些人是因為在別的地方申請不到經費過來嗎"},{"start":714.124,"end":741.984,"text":"主委,您剛剛一直都不願意說你有知悉那請您去查一下如果講這樣的話至少我不知道是誰講的如果是自然署長講他是不是應該跟大家道歉如果是大家有認為有這種情形那我就代表國科會跟大家道歉國科會不會有這樣的立場那如果有一些口誤我跟大家道歉"},{"start":742.784,"end":761.497,"text":"謝謝主委,我想您今天這樣算蠻有誠意的如果真的有講過這樣的話,主委願意跟大家道歉就是不應該任意貶抑任何的學問是在別的領域拿不到經費然後轉到這邊來申請那我想今天就是要跟主委講的事情"},{"start":762.518,"end":789.41,"text":"就是有這麼多的東西所以我今天的副標題是政策溝通主標是永續科研我想我剛剛講到的就是說你們是不是一個月內可以有一個決策過程的檢討報告包含所有的中長期計劃如果您不是不能夠調整不是不能刪減不是不能增加應該要有一個清楚的標準跟說明好不好"},{"start":789.77,"end":811.337,"text":"謝謝委員不是因為說哪個人個人不喜歡看不懂覺得沒貢獻人家四五年的努力本來預期還有一個四年月剛剛講中綱計畫都是準備兩年而且是競爭型的涉及到多少人的研究前途甚至有碩士生博士生的論文題目是同意吧同意就是然後那所以決策過程給我檢討報告第二個一個月內喔"},{"start":816.298,"end":843.788,"text":"提出未來相關學門調整應有的SOP那當然我們知道有些事情無法百分之百的民主但是今天一個大學要裁測一個系所緣合並教育部都有規定SOP要幾場溝通會幾場座談會就是應該要有一個而且學術社群那種程度是一個更平等他是互審的制度對不對學門召集人也都是有聲望的"},{"start":844.588,"end":846.849,"text":"第3個你們也應該要保障政策跟預算的連貫性我想大家的研究都是據說"},{"start":868.28,"end":868.3,"text":"范雲"},{"start":883.137,"end":883.157,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":901.86,"end":902.02,"text":"主委,可以答應嗎?答應"},{"start":920.806,"end":921.247,"text":"謝謝吳主委 請主委回座"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:15:31 - 10:31:15","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"154960","gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時15分）謝謝代理主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：主委早安。剛葉元之委員說我要罵你，我沒有要罵你，我要釐清一些事情，今天我們的主題其實是永續科研及政策溝通，我想了很久，永續科研有雙重意義，當然您也知道最近的學門爭議，可是永續科研還有另外一個意義是科研其實應該是要永續的。可不可以請問主委，如果要請您一句話講國科會的職掌，你會怎麼講？國科會的職掌是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會的任務是要協助國家來培養科研的人才，為了要培養人才，我們要投入研發，所以我們會編科技預算，這個研發的成果要……"],["范委員雲：我剛說一句話，你講了很多句話了。我們回來看國科會的組織法第一條就有講到職掌，行政院為辦理國家科學發展與技術研究及應用之規劃、協調、審議、資源分配等業務，特設國家科學及技術委員會，您有沒有覺得它很有意思，它把科學發展放在技術研究及應用前面，它為什麼不先放技術研究及應用，再放科學發展呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有科學發展去探討，前瞻的知識就不可能產生……"],["范委員雲：主委講得非常好，所以科學發展是長期的基礎，有時候不一定有市場性，表面上不一定看得出來對人類跟社會的貢獻，可是它之後也許就會有貢獻了，所以如果沒有長期的基礎研究跟重要的研究調查，你直接就認為前瞻跟各部會配合的研究就是最重要，甚至刪減基礎研究、重要的研究調查的話，其實很可能會是短多長空，這樣您同意嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意。"],["范委員雲：好，同意的話我們就有共識了。我想今天國科會三大學門調整風波，大家擔心的其實是更長期的問題，不只是表面上這個風波，風波剛剛大家都講過了，就是短短的兩三天內，主委應該知道要叫學者連署非常困難，尤其是衝上國科會，國科會是他研究資源的來源，沒有人想得罪國科會，主委過去有連署過挑戰國科會的各種聲明嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有……"],["范委員雲：沒有嘛？所以你就知道這個難度有多高了，主委以前是申請哪個處的研究經費？像我是人文處。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我是工程處。"],["范委員雲：好，您是工程處，工程處有好多科，您是申請哪一科？"],["吳主任委員誠文：微電子。"],["范委員雲：好，如果今天有人說不大了解你們那一科到底在做什麼，應該把它放到自然處跟人文處拆一拆，你會不會覺得滿生氣的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該要先經過討論沒錯。"],["范委員雲：對，一定要經過討論嘛！而且這個討論不是只找學門召集人來討論嘛？對不對？這個對您的影響是什麼？把你的研究領域從工程處調到自然處，甚至到人文處，對您的影響會是什麼？你的社群就……"],["吳主任委員誠文：可能就是審查的人員……"],["范委員雲：審查的人就不一樣嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，通常會不一樣。"],["范委員雲：審查的人不一樣對我們學者來講是多大的事，完全無法預測，譬如說您今天在做的……您是做電機的嘛？相關的研究，審查人員完全換了，甚至你投入十年的研究就拿不到經費了，這不是學者，甚至跟他的薪水無關，他的研究經費就受到很大的影響，所以茲事體大嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我了解他們的擔心。"],["范委員雲：看來主委今天到目前為止都跟我同步，我綜合這麼多陳情人的資訊，當然大家都有看到新聞了，我也主動請教了學界我比較尊重的、不同的朋友，包含涉及這3個跨領域的跟不涉及的，我覺得有四大問題，第一個是3個跨領域學門面臨支解與重組，","有的部分真的是叫支解，請他們拆到自然科，甚至有一些空間資訊或什麼的，我想細節我們就不講了。第二個，資源投入被緊縮，就是您剛剛講的預算增加，很多人已經挑戰你們是把部會的一些錢放進去，其實不是歸純學術研究的。第三個，眾多中綱計畫面臨刪減，中綱計畫主委應該很了解，中程綱要計畫是競爭型的，而且要準備個二、三年才能提出，學者們舉證歷歷，你們已經在進行的，例如第一個航向藍海，這是海洋研究的，原本是111年到114年的經費，現在115年可能無法延續；第二個，國土空間綱要也被影響，這些所謂中程綱要加起來的經費是4.577億，它涉及到下面多少研究助理，多少人一旦因為你們沒有給經費，這些人就是要回家吃自己，或者是必須要找新的主題，甚至研究生。還有，LTSER長期社會生態研究，這個也是基礎研究，這個表面上一下子看不到市場性，可是對我們的不管是永續跟各方面都有幫助，原本我們聽到的就是彰化站跟翡翠站好不容易建立了社會生態研究的點，你們主張經費刪減，本來學者討論了半年要增加發展的東海岸站，據說你們已經主張不用討論了，甚至處長說出不知道學者為什麼要做這樣的研究，有沒有這樣事情，你們待會再說。所以中綱計畫面臨刪減，甚至不只是這三個領域的，還有2030年跨世代年輕學者方案，這個一年其實用的錢不多，1.5億，我看去（112）年度有1,722個年輕學者申請，只有888人拿到，這個非常重要，因為年輕學者可能是因為系主任跟他說有這個經費，他不去申請國外，拿到博士學位回來了，結果呢，據說你們覺得年輕學者為什麼要給他特別鼓勵呢？他很優秀就很優秀，跟年齡無關。有關這個部分，你也知道我們臺灣的薪資比起東亞很多國家，然後研究經費也不確定，所以這個長程的東西，甚至一個已經在臺灣的年輕學者他放棄國外的話，因為你們不再補助這個部分，茲事體大啊！第四個，大家最質疑的事情不是不能做計畫經費刪減增加，而是應該要有嚴謹的評估，有清楚的報告，讓大家知道為什麼，這中間有一個討論過程，所以決策過程被認為既粗暴又不透明是目前的癥結點。","我想剛剛都已經講到了這個連署在3天之內就有650人參加，裡面有4位院士、2位校長，我也在9月16日看到這個事情，我認為我應該要正式跟你們索資，因為我是立法院裡面少數申請過你們國科會經費、看得懂你們在做什麼的。我去索資了，你們回我的第一份資料提到「本會業於9月16日新聞稿中澄清，並無更動組織或學門之規劃」，可是我後來又再次索資，你們第二份資料就變了，就說沒有正式會議。請問到底有沒有會議？是有會議但不正式，還是你第一份資料所講的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有會議，根本沒有會議。"],["范委員雲：沒有會議？完全沒有會議？"],["吳主任委員誠文：完全沒有，所以……"],["范委員雲：完全沒有會議？"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們第一時間澄清……"],["范委員雲：好，等一下！你說完全沒有會議，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["范委員雲：正式、非正式會議都沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有。"],["范委員雲：好，請問主委是否知情，有人想要著手規劃這件事情？您是否知情？"],["吳主任委員誠文：自然處處長是有跟我討論，是私底下討論說怎麼樣能夠……"],["范委員雲：所以您知情？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，我們討論的是怎麼樣能夠增進我們現在這三個學門的研究成效。"],["范委員雲：所以就是您知情嘛！他的意思就是要調整嘛，您知情他要調整？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有要調整，沒有要調整……"],["范委員雲：他沒說要調整？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是第一件事就是進行……"],["范委員雲：好，我不是法官，所以您知情他認為這三個學門的效率不夠，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是效率不夠，是說我們怎麼樣協助這些研究的學者們能夠增進他們的研究成效……"],["范委員雲：那為什麼其他的社會學門不需要增進研究成效，就是他們需要增進研究成效？"],["吳主任委員誠文：所有學門都要啊！但是……"],["范委員雲：所以所有的都要？"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是自然處的業務，這是他們的業務。"],["范委員雲：所以您有沒有授權自然處處長進行？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我有提醒我們要進行溝通……"],["范委員雲：你有提醒要進行溝通，所以現在是自然處長沒有接受您的提醒？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是沒有接受，因為還沒有進行溝通，連署就出現了，所以我們只好……"],["范委員雲：還沒有進行溝通，所以這樣子聽起來……"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以並沒有決策，報告委員……"],["范委員雲：是自然處長一個人腦袋想的，他沒有跟任何人開過會！"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，報告委員，我們處長也是很用心啦，他是要協助，他其實並沒有任何的決策，還沒有對外宣布的時候就出現了這個，我當然也是覺得非常遺憾。"],["范委員雲：因為我時間有限，處長……"],["吳主任委員誠文：還有剛剛委員提到的，其實我們的經費今年4.8億，明年已經增加到5.2億。"],["范委員雲：經費的事我會再跟您索資，我們再講清楚。請問主委，您知不知悉我們的自然處長曾經講了這樣的話，有白紙黑字寫「有不少PI皆是在其原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下之上述三學門」。您知悉還是不知悉？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個應該不是這樣講吧？"],["范委員雲：有白紙黑字，事後我可以給你看。您知悉還是不知悉？就只有一種嘛，知悉還是不知悉？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我覺得不是這樣講啦……"],["范委員雲：好啦，您就是覺得他這樣講不對，但是您知悉，這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他不是這樣講，他不是這樣講！"],["范委員雲：那他是怎麼樣講？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我提到，自然處長跟我提的只是怎麼樣去增進……"],["范委員雲：那您知不知悉他白紙黑字就是寫了這樣的東西？這是一個反彈的根源啦，今天如果說我是做性別研究跨領域，聽到「性別研究的學者都是在原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下之性別研究」的話，性別研究學者一定是跳腳，你把別人講成二流學者耶！這些人是因為在別的地方申請不到經費過來嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我……"],["范委員雲：主委，您剛剛一直都不願說你有知悉，那請您去查一下，如果講這樣的話，至少我不知道是誰講的，如果是自然處長講的，他是不是應該跟大家道歉？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果大家認為有這種情形，我就代表國科會跟大家道歉，國科會不會有這樣的立場，如果有一些口誤，我跟大家道歉。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝主委，我想您今天這樣算滿有誠意的，如果真的有講過這樣的話，主委願意跟大家道歉，就是不應該任意貶抑任何的學門……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，不會這樣。"],["范委員雲：是在別的領域拿不到經費，然後轉到這邊來申請。","我今天要跟主委講的事情，就是因為有這麼多的東西，所以我今天的副標題是政策溝通，主標是永續科研，我想對於我剛剛講到的，你們是不是一個月內可以有一個決策過程的檢討報告，包含所有的中長期計畫，您不是不能夠調整，不是不能刪減，不是不能增加，而是應該要有一個清楚的標準跟說明，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：不是哪個個人不喜歡、看不懂、覺得沒貢獻，人家四、五年的努力，本來預期還有一個四年，因為剛剛講中綱計畫都是準備二年，而且是競爭型的，這涉及到多少人的研究前途，甚至有碩士生、博士生的論文題目，這您同意吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，同意。"],["范委員雲：所以決策過程的部分要給我檢討報告。","第二個，一個月內提出未來相關學門調整應有的SOP，當然，我們知道有些事情無法百分之百的民主，但是今天一個大學要裁撤一個系所或合併，教育部都有規定SOP，要幾場溝通會、幾場座談會，就是應該要有一個，而且學術社群某種程度是更平等，是互審的制度，對不對？學門召集人也都是有聲望的，是推選出來的，所以是不是能夠針對學門調整應有的、尊重學界溝通的SOP的程序，是不是可以給我？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：讓大家相信不會再有這樣的事。","第三個，你們也應該要保障政策跟預算的連貫性，我想大家的研究應該二、三年是最短嘛，對不對？四、五年到十年的，有很多都是這樣長程的規劃，如果你的政策與預算沒有連貫性，我想跟學界的互信基礎就已經失去了，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：針對這個部分，我認為第二個，未來相關學門調整的民主程序是什麼，建議你們用問卷詢問那650位連署的學者，因為學者都是有email的，你們都可以找得到，讓他感受到國科會的誠意，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["范委員雲：那他們有反彈，一定有一套理想的方式，絕對不是說學科、學門絕對不能調整，好不好？那怎麼樣是好的做法，請您展現誠意，諮詢這650位連署的學者，至少用一個數位問卷很容易執行，主委可以答應嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：答應。"],["范委員雲：好。我也是出身自學界，今天絕對不是要修理主委或任何人，我想我們出身學界的，對於學界的議題有責任，至少我了解國科會的計畫申請是怎麼回事，所以我必須要說清楚。以上，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳主委，請主委回座。接下來請召委范雲接續主持會議。"],["主席（范委員雲）：謝謝吳沛憶委員代主席。再來，請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:09:42","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:25:47+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154959","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","duration":582,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:16:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b2996041ad30879b910639eb4554d3b099b341893f7f7175f642d8095ec2024595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":2.0897187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.74721875,"end":7.7428437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.14784375,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.290968750000001,"end":10.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.52221875,"end":15.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.34909375,"end":16.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.20971875,"end":44.884718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.306593750000005,"end":56.882843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.237218750000004,"end":58.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.65471875,"end":59.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.34221875,"end":61.101593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.20284375000001,"end":63.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.18971875,"end":68.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.38721875,"end":81.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.17846875000001,"end":82.76909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.66346875,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.79409375,"end":102.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.91784375,"end":106.39409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.76534375,"end":112.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.70534375000001,"end":115.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.37159375,"end":124.09596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.60221875,"end":130.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.77846875,"end":131.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.29721875,"end":135.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.90846875,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.59409375,"end":157.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.06534375,"end":182.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.65096875,"end":164.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.51034375,"end":172.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.38346875000002,"end":174.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.30284375000002,"end":177.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.91034375,"end":179.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.17534375000002,"end":210.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.96721875,"end":193.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.92284375000003,"end":207.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.39909375000002,"end":209.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.55096875,"end":209.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.88409375,"end":223.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.70596875,"end":217.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.03471875000002,"end":220.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.04659375000003,"end":225.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.81846875000002,"end":227.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.75909375,"end":231.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.29846875,"end":233.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.49659375000002,"end":236.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.52971875000003,"end":239.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.16221875000002,"end":244.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.14034375000003,"end":245.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.89971875,"end":247.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.12721875000003,"end":270.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.73346875000004,"end":2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Eats跟他是一個獨佔的一個市場那將近有八成的這個外送市場但是他在這個五月份的時候他宣布了他要"},{"start":99.459,"end":104.26,"text":"社會大眾緊張他們為什麼緊張我不知道公平會了不了解但是他們如果合併的話一定會影響市場上的結構"},{"start":124.665,"end":147.999,"text":"公平會你們態度跟立場而言你們對於獨佔的這個市場他們會不會在整個市場上面的你一直講的就是說這個限制的這個制度跟這個方面齁但是限制競爭這方面會不會影響其他競爭者的競爭因為他是第一大他是第二大他獨佔這個市場"},{"start":149.901,"end":156.641,"text":"合併之後的話其他市場有沒有能力跟他競爭就是限制競爭的這有沒有達到限制競爭"},{"start":158.823,"end":182.331,"text":"會不會整個市場的競爭結構的改變還有他市佔率的改變我已經告訴你他是第一名第二名這兩個合併起來不是大怪獸了嗎他對於這個將來消費者的影響包括餐廳店家的影響這個都是我們整個要評估那資料如果沒有很齊全我們補列放送資料給你的那他影響的是哪方面對店家什麼影響"},{"start":183.391,"end":210.625,"text":"對店家譬如說我們也做了很多的公聽會的徵詢店家擔心以後店家跟這個平台合作這個服務費可能會提高超成的問題是好那那個對於外送平台呢外送平台因為我們有這麼多的這個外送員他們也擔心說將來這個談判力量會不對等譬如說把這個外送費用降低或者是其他的就他的薪資會降低了薪資降低了那對消費者呢"},{"start":210.965,"end":236.803,"text":"消費者也擔心就提高價格因為我沒得選擇只能選這一家嘛以前有兩家可以選這個都是我提到的就是對利害對吸引的影響你都能夠說出來這就是一連貫的為了他們兩家和平之後產生了三輸的局面就是外送平台的外送人員還有店家還有消費者外送平台的人員因為他薪資會被他們控制而降低"},{"start":237.603,"end":237.884,"text":"公平委員會議"},{"start":248.374,"end":269.871,"text":"跟委員說明 第一個我們要文件齊備之後綜合評估 第二個公平會是委員會制的我現在問妳 妳有立場嗎 妳就有立場嘛 所以妳現在我一邊送資料給妳 妳就負責審核啊 妳就回答妳有立場 妳再寫到嚴格審核我現在不能談我的立場 我們是委員會制的 我們的整個想法他的資料是送給公平會嗎"},{"start":271.42,"end":271.82,"text":"公平交易法第11條"},{"start":299.893,"end":317.064,"text":"臺北有講到 這個第7項跟第8項裡面 如果正式受理之後 已經正式受理了嗎 正式受理還沒有正式受理 文件齊備才正式受理他現在文件還沒有齊備 所以還沒有他如果再過了半年還沒送來呢 會不會取消 會不會取消所以 主委 你一直在講21條 我現在跟你講11條"},{"start":325.729,"end":343.159,"text":"第7項第8項如果這個合併案件正式受理後需要經過30天內做出決定如果有必要性延期可以再延期60天如果最長最長的話只有90個公酬天就要做出決議5月送件現在9月底了你說資料期前才叫做正式送件那5月份就不算囉"},{"start":354.796,"end":355.397,"text":"補件沒有進來,會不會被取消?"},{"start":370.398,"end":373.239,"text":"對於本案是不是準結合需要到委員會討論那我們必須要有詳細的資料以後才能夠在委員會裡面做判斷"},{"start":398.848,"end":426.986,"text":"所以你們現在連立場態度都沒有五月份送件到現在補件都一直遲遲不送來經過了年底他還沒辦法送來你還不能做個裁決公平會廢了算了廢掉算了一個公平會今天來了多少官員你一年處理十個案件處理這一個社會大眾擔心關心受到很大的傷害的事情你們到現在遲遲不處理"},{"start":428.203,"end":433.607,"text":"主委本席在上個月就已經接受了一個案件就是在我們的平台上面在教導他們如何買股票如何炒作股票結果有個受害者被騙的損失了1700萬找公平會公平會說你去報警"},{"start":456.499,"end":456.519,"text":"：呂玲"},{"start":469.403,"end":471.925,"text":"公平會現在網路發達數位在這個平台上網路上在這個平台上已經串聯到這種程度了你公平會要化被動為主動不要看了報紙還不做事"},{"start":499.884,"end":511.481,"text":"你們要去看這個平台上有沒有詐騙的有沒有不實的通通都有我們自己稍微有個頭腦能一看就是被騙的你一個人可以抽到73張的這個股票"},{"start":514.218,"end":514.598,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":530.51,"end":554.324,"text":"面對事實現在社會輿論上你們公平會就是讓所有大眾不要受到其害消費者也好店家也好外送平台都好需要你們站出來所以我現在說告訴你現在落雨年底還沒有辦法把這個資料送齊的話你要看看這兩家有沒有必要性的何必你們要掀錢可以看一看"},{"start":555.265,"end":581.391,"text":"﹗"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:16:05 - 10:25:47","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154959","gazette":{"lineno":399,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時16分）謝謝主席。請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，公平會要負擔相關責任，整個社會所有各行各業在市場、平臺上有任何不公的地方，公平會就要主動站出來主持公道，讓所有大眾不受到其害。但是從早上到現在，我一直聽到公平會永遠是被動、撇清責任，見報了、到司法單位了，還跟你們沒關係，除非判決出來，你們才承認這個是有問題的，什麼叫做有問題？只要有受害者，就有問題，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：有受害者可能就是有違反法令的行為，那我們就……"],["呂委員玉玲：你又撇到司法，主委，為什麼早上這麼多委員大家都會比較激動地來問你？就是你一直不聚焦委員問你的問題，你一直都在答非所問，我就給你聚焦再聚焦一下，請問主委，根據數字統計報告，Uber Eats是獨占市場，將近有八成的外送市場，但是在5月份時，它宣布要併購foodpanda，整個社會輿論是傾向不支持的，但是在整個外送平臺裡面，你看到這兩家，一個是第一名，一個就是第二名，他們要合併了，社會大眾非常地緊張，他們為什麼緊張？我不知道公平會瞭不瞭解，但是他們如果合併的話，一定會影響市場上的結構，以公平會的態度跟立場，你們對於獨占市場的部分，他們會不會在整個市場上面，在限制制度方面，限制競爭這方面會不會影響到其他競爭者？因為一個是第一大，一個是第二大，他們如果合併，獨占這個市場，其他市場有沒有能力跟他們競爭？就是限制競爭，這個有沒有達到限制競爭？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想會不會造成整個市場競爭結構的改變，還有市占率的改變，它對於……"],["呂委員玉玲：我已經告訴你一個是第一名、一個是第二名，這兩個合併起來不是變成大怪獸了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：將來對於消費者的影響，包括對於餐廳、店家的影響，這都是我們要整個評估的，資料如果沒有很齊全，我們不是……"],["呂委員玉玲：5月份送資料給你們了，它影響的是哪方面？對店家有什麼影響？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們也做了很多的公聽會的徵詢，店家擔心以後店家跟這個平臺合作，服務費可能會提高。"],["呂委員玉玲：抽成的問題。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。對於外送平臺呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：外送平臺，因為我們有這麼多的外送員，他們也擔心將來談判力量會不對等，譬如把外送費用降低，或是其他的勞動條件會改變。"],["呂委員玉玲：就是他的薪資會降低，那對消費者呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：消費者也擔心提高價格，因為沒得選擇只能選這一家嘛，以前有兩家可以選，這個都是我所提到的，就是對於利害關係人的影響。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，你都能夠說出來，這就是連貫的，未來他們兩家合併之後，產生了三輸的局面，就是外送平臺的外送人員、還有店家、還有消費者，外送平臺的人員薪資會被他們控制而降低；店家的話是抽成的問題，抽成就會反映到成本，成本就轉嫁到消費者，三輸的局面。所以公平會有沒有立場？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，第一個，要文件齊備之後，我們綜合評估；第二個，公平會是委員會制……"],["呂委員玉玲：我是在問你，你有立場嗎，你就有立場嘛！所以5月份送資料給你，你就負責審核啊，你就回答你有立場，你需要嚴格審核。"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員，我現在不能談我的立場，我們是委員會制的，我們的整個想法必須要在委員會討論……"],["呂委員玉玲：它的資料是送給公平會嗎？是不是送給你們？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，資料是給公平會。"],["呂委員玉玲：那就是你們的立場，你要負責審核嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：那公平會是委員制，這麼大的案子，一定要經過委員會討論。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，委員制，你們要不要審核？5月份送資料給你們，到8月份你們要求他們要補正資料，現在是9月30號，又過了2個月了，資料送到沒有？"],["李主任委員鎂：還沒有，補正期間還沒到。"],["呂委員玉玲：還沒有，不能因為它是國外的公司就……因為在公平交易法的第十一條特別有講到，第七項跟第八項提到如果正式受理之後，已經正式受理了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：還沒有正式受理，文件齊備才正式受理，現在文件還沒有齊備，所以還沒有。"],["呂委員玉玲：如果再過了半年它還是沒送來呢？會不會取消？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果文件沒有齊備，我們就沒辦法審。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，你一直在講第二十一條，我現在跟你講第十一條，第七項、第八項，如果這個合併案件正式受理後，需要三十天內做出決定，如果有必要可以再延期六十天，最長九十個工作天就要做出決議。5月送件，現在9月底了，你說要資料齊全才叫正式送件……"],["李主任委員鎂：是，正式受理……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以5月份就不算？"],["李主任委員鎂：5月只是遞件。"],["呂委員玉玲：我再問你，到年底以前如果補件沒有進來，會不會被取消？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會看沒有進來的原因是什麼？目前為止他還是表達有意願補件……"],["呂委員玉玲：他要補件，你說要補什麼件？你說是必要……"],["李主任委員鎂：結合的綜效評估。"],["呂委員玉玲：你必須讓他知道補什麼件。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要看各界的意見。一方面我們有，一方面……"],["呂委員玉玲：我要看公平會的態度、意見，你自己知道你們委員會有什麼意見，才會需要補件，你們第一關審查就是知道哪些不符才要他補件……"],["李主任委員鎂：是……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以怎麼會沒有立場、沒有態度？"],["李主任委員鎂：對於本案是不是准結合，需要到委員會討論，所以我們必須要有詳細的資料才能在委員會做判斷。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們現在連立場態度都沒有？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員會還會……"],["呂委員玉玲：5月份送件到現在，補件都一直遲遲不送來，都快年底了，他還沒辦法送來，你還不能做個裁決？公平會廢了算了！廢掉算了！"],["李主任委員鎂：補件是申請人本來……"],["呂委員玉玲：公平會今天來了多少官員？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們任何案件都會有……"],["呂委員玉玲：一年處理10個案件，但對於處理這種社會大眾關心，擔心權益受到很大傷害的，你們卻到現在遲遲不處理？我告訴你，這種限制競爭是會發生的，具高度風險，而你們還是一樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員，沒有不處理……"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，本席上個月接到一個陳情案件，在平臺上有人教導他們如何買股票、如何炒作股票，結果有受害者被騙了，損失了1,700萬！找公平會，公平會說去報警，就這麼兩手一攤，叫他去報警？他說這個平臺一開始教他怎麼玩股票；到後面告訴他抽中了股票73張，所以要趕快把錢繳進來。他問公平會，這件事情是否為真？但公平會說去報案吧！現在案子已經到法院了，車手什麼的都被抓了！"],["李主任委員鎂：因為這是刑事案件……"],["呂委員玉玲：公平會只能叫他這樣去報案嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我跟你聚焦在這種問題上！今天早上每一個委員都講到這個！現在網路發達，在平臺上、在網路上，已經串聯到這種程度了，所以公平會要化被動為主動，不要看了報紙還不做事！你們要去看平臺上有沒有詐騙的？有沒有不實的？通通都有。稍微有頭腦的人一看就知道被騙了，一個人可以抽到73張的股票？這麼淺顯易懂的事，你們都不能主動嗎？你們可以去訪查、去偵查、去詢問，公平會坐在這邊的就這麼多人了，你們部裡面、委員會裡面有多少人？我希望你們能誠懇面對事實、面對現在的社會輿論，因為公平會就是要讓社會大眾不要受害！消費者也好、店家也好，外送平臺都好，需要你們站出來。我現在告訴你，如果年底業者還沒有辦法把資料送齊的話，那麼你就要看看這兩家有沒有合併的必要性？你們先看一看。再者，如果外送平臺未來抽潤會轉嫁給消費者，那麼這部分我覺得可以成立專案，可以比照、參考美國的專案，也就是抽成的％數有一定上限，這也是保障。對外送平臺、消費者跟店家，這都是一種方式，本席給你這個建議，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲）：謝謝大家。等會在楊瓊瓔委員質詢完畢，我們休息5分鐘。","現在請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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«都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":140.953,"end":164.519,"text":"還有檢探齊頭併勁我們就不要只有理想沒有務實那這一塊我想這一塊特別在這邊我們在推動的過程當中本來就非常務實因為如果民間建築沒有辦法跟進的話其實反而對於淨林碳排的推動反而這樣子的寓意良好啊會變成是好像打水漂我想這樣反而不好但是怎麼樣處理比較好是不是讓署長跟那就不用了"},{"start":166.459,"end":182.828,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團"},{"start":183.829,"end":212.095,"text":"近期央行出重拳打房我想部長您都應該知道嘛對不是央行出重拳打房這個部分可能要改成中央銀行在打草房不是打房打房的話就太嚴重了那就是央行有一些策略嘛他策略出來以後整個房價不斷的下跌那當然我們也認同要打草房這點本席也要這個立場要明確"},{"start":212.995,"end":216.777,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":232.386,"end":261.46,"text":"建商他不願意投入只要檢答就好報告委員您的觀察非常的正確我們這次提出65條之一的修正案是叫改善容積率跟原來一樣跟現在的房價其實完全沒有正相關但是我指的是現在央行他的這樣的新的政策出來之後會不會影響到未來的危老重建或是都更重建"},{"start":262.928,"end":263.609,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":284.377,"end":284.717,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":314.309,"end":320.654,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案。"},{"start":328.669,"end":337.675,"text":"我知道到明年的時候那個臺灣會進入超高齡但是可能是五分之一左右吧對剛剛我聽到署長講快要接近20%那只要超過到達20%就是我們所謂的會進入超高齡社會那所以現在超高齡社會本席也想請教部長我們部裡面有沒有在統計我們全國的村長里長村里長"},{"start":357.429,"end":365.195,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。第三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":384.531,"end":391.875,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":411.647,"end":421.175,"text":"他們沒有保險這一塊我們中央是不是可以想辦法怎麼樣子立法或修法能夠讓他們有這個保障報告委員李長的部分李長已經有了我知道那林長是由縣市地方政府"},{"start":430.343,"end":449.064,"text":"由縣市地方政府來派任或者是拜託但是縣市地方政府如果會因為中央修法而跟著一起修法來保障他們我們願意樂觀其成也來幫忙他但是您剛所提到的一警一消或甚至民防的話各有不同的單位譬如說民防的話是由警察單位來處理"},{"start":449.585,"end":459.228,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具第"},{"start":478.275,"end":504.205,"text":"本席非常開心聽到部長這樣講有很多我們剛剛講的就是年齡過高保險公司不願意保險的這一塊能夠協助那您有提到他是榮譽性還是實質性其實您有時候可以到地方看看很多他80歲80幾歲他還非常的活躍而且身體非常健朗而且他長期協助地方事務所以"},{"start":505.686,"end":520.619,"text":"希望我們這一個部分中央能夠來修法或立法來保障他們讓這些高齡的志工他不會面臨保險公司不願意承擔保險的風險這個應該是全國很多地方大家共同的心聲"},{"start":520.939,"end":522.981,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":539.918,"end":552.366,"text":"我知道您一定會提縣市政府或地方鄉鎮公所他們要與法有據而且要有法律來協助他們讓他們也能夠執行所以剛剛您有承諾我本席非常開心謝謝好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:15:22 - 10:24:39","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154958","gazette":{"lineno":360,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時15分）謝謝主席，本席有請劉部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：召委你好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。本席想首先請教你，淨零碳排是國際的趨勢，您知不知道什麼是綠色溢價？"],["劉部長世芳：我們尊重環境部的說法，綠色溢價比較窄化來講，應該是指碳權交易的部分吧！但是我不是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：您的認知是這樣？"],["劉部長世芳：對，我不是那麼清楚……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就是從現行定義的比較骯髒的碳排技術，轉換到零碳排的過程……"],["劉部長世芳：或者是淨零碳排。"],["徐委員欣瑩：要多花一些成本，這些多出來的成本，我們就稱為綠色溢價。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長，接下來……"],["劉部長世芳：但是要由誰吸收，這個部分恐怕要很多的討論空間。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒錯，所以這一塊接下來就要麻煩您也特別能夠關注，因為我們內政部有推動淨零建築轉型推動策略。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以明年就要強制民間落實淨零建築……"],["劉部長世芳：不是，我想跟委員報告一下，目前我們的推動進度都是以公務機關為主，我們現在就是只要……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以民間沒有？"],["劉部長世芳：還沒有，民間是採取鼓勵的，就是我們對於所謂新的、要建構的建築物，只要是公務機關的話，它就要符合我們內政部所要求的這些淨零碳排的方向，但對於民間建築的話，是新的部分我們會用鼓勵，但是也會跟相關的建投公會或者是土木技師公會來討論，沒有那麼快，我想這樣子反而不好，會造成所謂的綠色通膨。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，民間是逐步嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，逐步，而且先從鼓勵開始。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那從鼓勵開始，也要請部長要注重，在整個淨零建築的工法跟材料價格上，可能會因為用淨零建築而上漲這一塊，當然你已經提到是逐步鼓勵，所以我在這邊就特別講，我們希望注重成本的控管。"],["劉部長世芳：當然。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有減碳齊頭並進。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我們就不要只有理想，沒有務實，我想這一塊特別在這邊……"],["劉部長世芳：我們在推動的過程當中本來就非常務實，因為如果民間建築沒有辦法跟進的話，其實對於淨零碳排的推動，反而會變成寓意良好，卻好像打水漂，我想這樣反而不好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，非常好。"],["劉部長世芳：但是怎麼樣處理比較好，我是不是讓署長跟……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那就不用了，因為我時間有限，只要大家有共識就可以。","其次，我們非常肯定這一次都市更新條例第六十五條的修法是讓民眾受惠，因為我們也看到了行政院的版本，但是近期央行出重拳打房，我想部長您應該知道嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：不是，「央行出重拳打房」這個部分可能要改成中央銀行在打炒房，不是打房，打房的話就太嚴重了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，那就是央行有一些策略嘛！它策略出來以後，整個房價不斷地下跌，當然，我們也認同要打炒房，這點本席立場也要明確，很多業界人士還有大家都認為臺灣房市的新拐點可能已經浮現，所謂新拐點就是不斷的房價下跌會不會影響到剛剛很多委員提的，不管危老重建還是都更重建，會不會讓建商不願意投入？只要簡答就好，您覺得這個情況如何？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，您的觀察非常正確，我們這次提出第六十五條的修正案是叫改善容積率，跟原來一樣……"],["徐委員欣瑩：針對我的問題答一下好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：跟現在的房價其實完全沒有正相關。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，但是我指的是現在央行這樣新的政策出來之後，會不會影響到未來的危老重建或是都更重建？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為它所限制的資金的部分是不含都更、危老的，所以都更、危老的推動在銀行的融資是不影響的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我指的是整體房價，我剛剛有講，整體房價現在不斷地下跌……"],["吳署長欣修：是，跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那建商會不會卻步？現在因為整個房價低，它就不投入，我只是簡單……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為都更的計價會涉及到住戶的權利跟當時的土地估價，跟建築成本的反映……"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有整體房價會下跌嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對都更來講，其實一般來講衝擊很小，因為它跟房價的連動性本來一般就不高。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果我們部裡面跟我們署長這樣，我們就是反正大家這樣講，我們希望這不要影響到。","接著第三點，本席想請教部長，社區現在……我們應該這樣講，我們目前65歲以上人口所占比例大概多少，部長知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我知道到明年的時候臺灣會進入超高齡社會，但是可能是五分之一左右。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，剛剛我聽到署長講，快要接近20%。只要超過、到達20%就是所謂的會進入超高齡社會，所以現在超高齡社會，本席也想請教部長，我們部裡面有沒有在統計，我們全國的村里長80歲以上的有幾位？沒有統計對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉，沒有統計80歲。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那更不用講我們的鄰長，我們全國的鄰長在80歲以上的有幾位？本席希望說，因為里鄰長或村鄰長，我們還是要掌握一下他們年齡的情況。接著本席要講的是說，現在這些高齡的鄰長，他們沒有保險，但是他們卻在協助很多的地方事務，另外，臺灣很多民眾都熱心公益，長期擔任村里鄰的環保清潔志工、愛心志工、巡守隊，甚至義警、義消這些執勤服務，有的年齡高、有的年齡低，他們沒有保險，關於這一塊，中央是不是可以想辦法，怎麼樣立法或修法，能夠讓他們有這個保障？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，里長的部分，在我們的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：里長已經有了，我知道。"],["劉部長世芳：鄰長是由縣市地方政府……"],["徐委員欣瑩：鄰長，還有一些志工……"],["劉部長世芳：由縣市地方政府來派任或者是拜託，但是縣市地方政府如果因為中央修法而跟著一起修法來保障他們，我們願意樂觀其成，也來幫忙他們，但是您剛剛所提到的義警、義消甚至民防，各有不同的單位，譬如說民防是由警察單位來處理，義消是由消防單位來處理……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK。"],["劉部長世芳：這部分如果是因為年齡超高，第一件事情，我們就會先討論他是否安全，他如果去執行義消、義警的工作是否安全，但他如果只是一個榮譽性的角色，大概就比較不會有您所提到的保險上的顧慮，但是全面的來執行，看他們勤務上面會不會碰到、需要保險，我們願意檢討改進。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好、非常好，本席非常開心聽到部長這樣講。我們剛剛講的，有很多人年齡過高，保險公司不願意保險的這一塊能夠協助，您有提到他是榮譽性還是實質性，其實您有時候可以到地方看看，很多八十歲、八十幾歲還非常的活躍，而且身體非常健朗，長期協助地方事務，希望中央能夠修法或立法來保障他們，讓這些高齡的志工不會面臨保險公司不願意承擔保險的風險，這個應該是全國很多地方大家共同的心聲。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我想您講的應該是屬於團體或是社會保險的方式，如果針對個人，當然商業保險不會接受，但是真的在執勤方面有碰到什麼狀況的話，我想縣市地方政府甚至鄉鎮公所或者中央政府應該負擔一部分的責任。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道你一定會提縣市政府或地方鄉鎮公所，他們要於法有據，而且要有法律來協助他們，讓他們也能夠執行，所以剛剛您有承諾，本席非常開心，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:08:41","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:15:08+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154957","委員名稱":"黃捷","duration":521,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:06:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b2f231d2a8c6934c1e2c265252fbe14a89b341893f7f7175f523becba90833d095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.34596875,"end":12.771593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.10909375,"end":14.391593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.044093750000002,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.28034375,"end":26.305343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.16284375,"end":56.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.35534375,"end":76.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.74471875,"end":77.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.31409375,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.28784375000001,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.50034375000001,"end":10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這個真的要拜託國土署的署長你不能因為在這邊回了一個這樣的回憾我不希望說變成人家被拿去這樣錯誤的解讀那如果真的這個國土署的你們的這樣的公文裡面有被錯誤解讀的地方也希望你們要說明清楚好嗎是"},{"start":259.535,"end":280.488,"text":"這個我們到時候都會提供好,謝謝署長再來我們繼續請教部長因為今天審的這個《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》其實我認為是沒有爭議的因為它其實就是處理在1999年的時候時事容積管制之前的建築物那因為確實當時卡在一個非常尷尬的情況是有時候1999年當時有些房子正在蓋"},{"start":283.03,"end":287.034,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等17人擬具〈都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":307.872,"end":319.222,"text":"當然我看了一下目前裡面的數字全國目前在當時這樣的情況的房子而且剛好就是大概30年也差不多都是要危老了那這樣的情況大概有8000多棟是這樣子嗎對"},{"start":322.585,"end":325.047,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具 «都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":344.456,"end":368.251,"text":"對,雙北比較多,70%左右,但是高雄市也不少,高雄市有313棟是符合的,六層樓以上的建築。好,那當然我希望說今天這個修法可以順利啦,那這個其實是讓很多民眾可以受惠。那我比較想知道,其實是跟剛剛美會委員提到的一樣,因為其實我們在危老條例通過之後,發現申請危老的核定數,"},{"start":369.812,"end":386.041,"text":"遠多於申請都更的那目前我看到2017年在危老條例通過之後其實是3700多件那其實申請都更的只有1000多件也就是說後來會選擇說乾脆使用危老的其實是三倍之多"},{"start":386.761,"end":415.066,"text":"那我們現在遇到的問題就是說到底我們內政部有沒有一些更原則性的方向接下來你們要祭出幾大措施來加速都更的方向當然今天的條例通過是第一個好的開始那接下來呢因為其實地方上遇到都更的困難真的非常的細節非常多甚至是住戶跟住戶之間住戶跟建商之間每一個一個都要這樣去談那我們內政部有什麼方向目前還沒有看到"},{"start":417.048,"end":427.818,"text":"委員,我想委員的觀察非常的正確。危老跟都更目前大致上要走危老的會比較多。那就我們的原則性的了解,就是因為危老他在這個產權上面會比較一致性、比較單純。"},{"start":431.442,"end":433.603,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":456.452,"end":485.478,"text":"現在有些地方政府已經在他們的縣市政府裡面提出他們都更中心或是都更的相關單位來專門來做一個輔導的措施的工作那我們也很希望很鼓勵啊尤其是這個六都啊能夠朝著這方向的話呢未來我們在國土署協助他們的話會更快速好謝謝那當然我希望內政部可以扮演更積極的角色啦因為其實地方上遇到的問題比較像我剛剛講的就是住戶跟住戶之間可能沒有信任感或者是"},{"start":486.178,"end":514.569,"text":"有一些可能建商他覺得跟哪一個住戶談了比較好的條件或者是彼此談的條件不一樣導致在整合的過程困難重重那在這樣的情況下是不是有一些我們內政部可以協助讓這個資訊過程是更平等更公開減少彼此住戶之間的資訊落差我認為是一個可行的方向那我也希望接下來內政部可以參考然後訂出一些更明確的方向希望在接下來加速都跟應該要扮演更積極的角色可以嗎可以"},{"start":516.557,"end":517.26,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:06:27 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10:15:08","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154957","gazette":{"lineno":329,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時6分）謝謝主席，我們請部長跟國土署署長。"],["主席：請部長跟署長。"],["黃委員捷：部長辛苦了。"],["劉部長世芳：委員您好！哪裡。"],["黃委員捷：剛剛參加完防災會議，希望接下來一切順利啦！希望大家都可以防颱平安。首先，先請教一下部長，其實三天前立法院有一位同事，他在臉書上發了一個國土署回函給他的公文，這個在講什麼？他在講給京華城的20%容積獎勵，其實是在國土署認可的合法範圍內。我不知道他這樣的解釋是你們國土署的意思嗎？因為他在裡面很明確地提到國土署有寫到：避免就特定或單一對象針對細部計畫創設獎勵項目規定。國土署的回文確實有寫到這一條，但他說避免不是禁止，所以代表可以、代表合法，是這樣子嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們尊重個別委員對於國土署所提供的相關法律規定上面的說法，但是站在內政部或者是國土署的立場，第一個，我們只提供通案法律規定上面的解釋跟說明，對於個案不介入，尤其是這已經進入偵查階段，但是我希望黃委員可以讓國土署署長就他提供給個別委員上面的通案規定，再跟委員進行詳細的說明。"],["黃委員捷：這個脈絡一定要講清楚。"],["吳署長欣修：對！"],["黃委員捷：會特別在這邊提，是因為你們回函的這個公文白紙黑字，不要變成單一個案的合法背書，到時候變成法庭上他們拿來作為依據的證據。"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解，也感謝委員的詢問啦！因為他所來函的，當然是針對整個容積率獎勵的規定，希望我們提供一些說明，所以我們也把過去容積率獎勵從全國通案性的概念，去找地方政府一起來溝通，但很重要的是要求地方政府放到自己的施行細則或自治條例裡面，作為全市性的通用原則，不管後面的個案是怎麼申請，我們裡面都有提到均應回歸主要計畫，還有細則或自治條例的規定。"],["黃委員捷：這個前提很重要嘛！這個前提很重要嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對！不管任何個案都應該要這樣，所以最後一段才會補上：避免針對單一個案去做處理，都是用這樣的脈絡，我想我們歷年來在處理所有地方政府的提案都是用這樣的方式在進行。"],["黃委員捷：所以今天特別在這邊提問是希望內政部針對這樣的文字說明時，一定要把整段、整個脈絡講清楚，我們給予容積獎勵的原則到底是什麼，這個也一定要非常、非常明白，甚至是我認為你們應該要具體建議地方自己在訂自治條例或施行細則的時候，這一些原則性的東西到底是針對哪些條件，都應該要講清楚才對，是嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：是！跟委員報告，因為地方政府在訂定相關的細則或自治條例時，也必須要送到內政部報備，在報備的過程當中，如果有文字上不清楚，或是定義上沒有清楚的，我們一定都會要求重新定義清楚才能夠通過。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個真的要拜託國土署署長，不能因為在這邊回了一個這樣的回函，被人家拿去錯誤地解讀。"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。"],["黃委員捷：如果真的國土署的公文裡面有被錯誤解讀的地方，也希望你們要說明清楚好嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：是！這個我們到時候都會提供。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝署長。","再來，我們繼續請教部長，今天審的都市更新條例第六十五條修正案，其實我認為是沒有爭議的，因為它就是處理在1999年那時候實施容積管制之前的建築物，當時確實卡在一個非常尷尬的情況，1999年有些房子正在蓋，確實也申請到建照了，可是蓋好的時候已經超過了，所以我們現在就是處理當時遇到這樣情況的一些房子，他們原本想要的容積跟後來容積不一樣的情況，我當然也認為在公平的原則下應該是要放寬，這也是我們推動加速都更一個很重要的放寬依據。我看了一下裡面的數字，全國在當時有這樣情況的房子，而且剛好大概是30年，也差不多都是要危老了，這樣的情況大概有八千多棟，是這樣子嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，我想委員非常關心都更，尤其是在大都會裡面的危老跟都更，確實沒有錯，全國共有8,216棟是符合我們這一次，如果在第六十五條之一的修正通過之後，它會回復到原來的容積給他們。"],["黃委員捷：好，我大概看了一下，其實多數都集中在雙北對嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：對，雙北比較多，占70%左右，但是高雄市也不少，高雄市有313棟是符合的，六層樓以上的建築。"],["黃委員捷：當然我希望今天這個修法可以順利，這個其實是讓很多民眾可以受惠。我比較想知道的其實是跟剛剛美惠委員提到的一樣，因為其實我們在危老條例通過之後，發現申請危老的核定數遠多於申請都更的，目前我看到2017年在危老條例通過之後，其實是三千七百多件，申請都更的只有一千多件，也就是說，後來會選擇乾脆使用危老的其實是都更的3倍之多。我們現在遇到的問題就是說，到底內政部有沒有一些更原則性的方向，接下來你們要祭出幾大措施來加速都更的方向？當然今天的條例通過是第一個好的開始，那接下來呢？因為其實地方上遇到都更的困難真的非常地細節、非常多，甚至是住戶跟住戶之間、住戶跟建商之間，每一個一個都要這樣去談，那我們內政部有什麼方向？目前還沒有看到。"],["劉部長世芳：是，報告委員，我想委員的觀察非常正確，危老跟都更，目前大致上要走危老的會比較多，就我們原則性的了解，這是因為危老在產權上面會比較一致性、比較單純。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：都更的話牽涉就太多，而且我們很希望都更的話，住戶能夠是百分之百同意，在這樣的狀況之下，要進行到都更條例的可行性就比較低，雖然我們祭出所謂的容獎，但是好像也沒有辦法比較好地引導都更未來來做一個改善，但是我們會一步一步地跟各縣市地方政府來做合作，現在有些地方政府已經在他們的縣市政府裡面提出他們都更中心或是都更的相關單位，來專門做一個輔導措施的工作，我們也很希望、很鼓勵，尤其是六都，能夠朝著這個方向的話，未來國土署協助他們的話會更快速。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝，當然我希望內政部可以扮演更積極的角色，因為其實地方上遇到的問題比較像我剛剛講的，就是住戶跟住戶之間可能沒有信任感，或者是有一些可能建商它覺得跟哪一個住戶談了比較好的條件，或者是彼此談的條件不一樣，導致整合的過程困難重重，在這樣的情況下，是不是有一些內政部可以協助，讓資訊過程是更平等、更公開，減少彼此住戶之間的資訊落差？我認為這是一個可行的方向，我也希望接下來內政部可以參考，然後定出一些更明確的方向，希望你們接下來在加速都更應該要扮演更積極的角色，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：可以。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們繼續請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:09:02","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:06:19+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154956","委員名稱":"王美惠","duration":542,"start_time":"2024-09-30T09:57:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bf1d740fcda6047e2e2c265252fbe14a89b341893f7f7175fc1db3c457e706b235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.79034375,"end":3.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8109687500000002,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.590343750000002,"end":12.164093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.484718750000003,"end":19.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.552218750000002,"end":13.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.758468750000002,"end":15.809093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.75721875,"end":24.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.97221875,"end":26.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.26721875,"end":28.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.90409375,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.92096875,"end":29.258468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.502218750000004,"end":36.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.95346875,"end":40.125968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.784093750000004,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.977843750000005,"end":44.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.90159375,"end":45.5090937500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10:06:19","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154956","gazette":{"lineno":282,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時57分）主席，請政次和署長。"],["主席：請政次跟署長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：署長好、政次好，今天我們所修的法是要提供法律上的優惠，不是針對個人，而是針對大眾，如果是因為個人，我們要來修這個法，我覺得有一點講不過去。今天我們要審都市更新條例有關容積率的管制，請問已經取得建照的，不管是還沒蓋好的、蓋好的還是準備要蓋的，是不是都可以突破現在的容積率上限？我們是要鼓勵老房子都更，上一次修法是在110年，不過，後來發現有很多問題，我們才會想說要再來修這個法，政次，你認為要怎麼做比較好？還是署長你要回答一下？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，這部分主要是過去訂這個法律的時候，現在原容的獎勵都一樣、都沒有變，就是沒有突破原來原容30%的容獎，它是適用，因為過去修法的時候，規定容積率訂定之前，房子就應該已經蓋好了才可以適用，但是過去從實際發照到蓋好中間有一個過程，有的在過程中，容積率實施的時候房子還沒蓋好，造成後來他們事實上是適用舊法規，沒辦法申請容積獎勵，我們希望把這個納入，說這確實情有可原，因為蓋大樓的時候有時候不一定那麼順利。"],["王委員美惠：對啦，有的是去申請執照了，但還沒蓋。"],["吳署長欣修：就是還沒蓋好啦。"],["王委員美惠：還沒蓋好，就是適用那個容積率嘛，是不是這樣？"],["吳署長欣修：是，所以他沒辦法適用這個獎勵，老實說比較不公平。第二、對他們來說，因為這樣所以沒辦法適用原容的時候，就一個制度來說，的確會有兩種不同標準的問題，所以地方政府老實說過去也覺得有一點困擾，也希望我們可以重新調整，才有這次修法的作法出來。"],["王委員美惠：我覺得從110年開始，地方都有反映這個問題，中央現在要修這個法，就是有聽到地方的聲音，如何讓老房子可以適用我們未來修的法，不然，說實在的有的人就是搞不清楚到底可以適用還是不能適用。政次最近有去嘉義市，署長對嘉義市也很了解，剛剛本席坐在那邊有聽到政次在說都更對雙北的重要性，署長也說對南部、對嘉義市的危樓很重要，嘉義市的危樓有多少，你知道嗎？署長還是政次回答一下？"],["吳署長欣修：嘉義市可以適用的大樓很少，差不多八十幾棟而已，但是……"],["王委員美惠：危樓呢？"],["吳署長欣修：但是危樓，三十年以上的應該很多。"],["王委員美惠：對！"],["吳署長欣修：三十年以上應該是有夠多，因為我們嘉義市也是老城市了，有的房子甚至是日本時代開始就有了……"],["董次長建宏：像東區那邊都是。"],["吳署長欣修：所以這裡數量應該是非常地大。"],["王委員美惠：本席要跟你們說的是，因為每一個地方不同，像我們嘉義市，現在的老房子、危樓很多，就像百姓說的：我也想要都更，不過我的資格不符合，也不知道要怎麼去都更。如果他們想要都更，但仍然沒辦法達成的時候，要如何去協助他呢？署長，你是如何想的？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們每一年都有補助地方政府都更跟危老輔導團的部分；第二個，其實過去大家對於透天會認為透天就是時間到了再改建，但是對有些人來說，可能因為收入也比較不夠，蓋新房子有需要貸款，還是看有沒有辦法減免相關的稅，這部分在危老裡面其實都有提供，只是過去在地方政府實施上，可能他們印象都比較是針對大樓，比較不會去想到透天，所以這點確實是我們後續輔導團可以來加強做說明的。"],["王委員美惠：我覺得這個說明要加強一下。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：你看嘉義市危老申請重建的有二十幾件，我們的都更有兩件核准的。署長跟次長，你認為都更公辦的住宅會比普通建商賣得貴還是便宜？請你們回答一下。"],["吳署長欣修：應該是比較貴啦！"],["王委員美惠：為什麼會比較貴？"],["吳署長欣修：第一個主要的原因我要向您報告，因為它主要的基地久了，地點都不錯，所以它會有……"],["王委員美惠：但是他的地和處理的部分都是公家機關的欸！"],["吳署長欣修：你是說公辦都更的部分嗎？"],["王委員美惠：對！你向我回答的，讓我有一點……"],["吳署長欣修：沒有，所以委員剛才說的，譬如說在嘉義我們有兩件公辦都更。"],["王委員美惠：對！"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分，我跟委員報告啦……"],["王委員美惠：現在先報告這件目前正在蓋的，因為本席在我們的服務處，包括助理接到的電話也好，還是我本身手機接到的也好，他們都會覺得自己真的想不到，公辦都更應該是有政府介入，地是政府的嘛！未來要興建、要賣的時候應該會比普通建商……"],["吳署長欣修：我瞭解你說的意思。"],["王委員美惠：更便宜嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是啦！公辦都更理論上應該是這樣，沒有錯。"],["王委員美惠：是理論上，事實上就不是這樣啊！"],["吳署長欣修：我瞭解。"],["王委員美惠：所以我身為嘉義市的立委，這麼多人來問我時，我也無法回答。怎麼會這樣呢？"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。"],["王委員美惠：因為一般你們會公辦都更，就是我們房子的價格不能再更高了嘛！不過你要知道，包括嘉義市、彰化、苗栗在內，第一個公辦都更的案件就是在嘉義市！署長，這是很大的問題，我們希望地方更進步、地方可以更好，我也認同你剛才說的，舊的地點都在比較熱鬧的地方、在主要道路上，但畢竟地是公家的，價錢不應該這樣！"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。"],["王委員美惠：因為時間快到了……"],["吳署長欣修：我也跟他們來瞭解一下。"],["王委員美惠：我私底下還有很多問題，希望跟署長及次長來探討一下，可以讓地方發展得更好，以上。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：好，感謝委員。"],["主席：我們請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:07:59","end_time":"2024-09-30T09:57:11+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154955","委員名稱":"丁學忠","duration":479,"start_time":"2024-09-30T09:49:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bc2cfdcc5a448b89ee2c265252fbe14a89b341893f7f7175f403bed0ec3b6ed555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.26721875,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.14034375,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.231593750000002,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.15971875,"end":13.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.21034375,"end":13.294718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.294718750000001,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.328468750000003,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.497218750000002,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.47596875,"end":43.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.20971875,"end":17.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.82971875,"end":21.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.81221875,"end":23.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.74409375,"end":27.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.53284375,"end":28.988468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.21909375,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.50596875,"end":38.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.59034375,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.62409375,"end":38.657843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.09159375,"end":46.690343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.79596875,"end":50.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.95971875,"end":52.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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委員報告 我想我們再來檢討 因為我們其實地方 有時候是這個火水下水的整體系統性 有的需要怕通 有的需要點檢討的部分 這點我們會加速來看地方政府看討論 看我們還有對一塊的部分 有時候不是清掃的關係 有時候是系統性"},{"start":247.528,"end":255.97,"text":"主要做一個調整有可能要建工廠要訂做的這個部分我先來探討,之後再來探討這個部分麻煩市長再多多複審是,請問...上天...上個月這個...當這個行政院結束的時候有去講到這個國土法,剛才也聽到委員有去關心到這個"},{"start":274.52,"end":296.016,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。第三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員王鴻薇"},{"start":303.966,"end":322.452,"text":"此資訊要有清澈如何靠國外去承受農民的管理。此就各分。市長。我跟委員報告,第一就是說,我們的路徑跟大家溝通,因為那個溝通界的法律,如同大家幾個委員、大家的機構,很多人都沒什麼了解,當然我們就請大家隨便清澈,這是第一點。"},{"start":326.693,"end":340.781,"text":"第二,我們的執法在年底前一定會完成在完成過程中會向大家報告說這個執法對大家的關於的保護其實比較重要的其實是委員所觀察的農地問題包括農地的補助這部分農地上面可以去做什麼可以做什麼我剛才有報告過以前是要用省省的未來是用農學就是說我們上面跟你說說你可以做什麼你就按照那個規範去處理就可以了"},{"start":355.669,"end":363.251,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":383.556,"end":387.037,"text":"請就是各位這樣通過後實施後,那如果比如我們這個農業的土地這樣會相對,它的計劃性會怎樣計劃?我跟委員報告,其實農地的計劃應該是在農地本身的農業生產的規定裡面,它的那個計劃。委員說說的農業計劃可能就是說農地如果有人想要變更做白的輸用的時候來處理,好來我請主席。"},{"start":413.111,"end":422.655,"text":"委員報告,其實我們兩年前就大概有跟全國的公家署,因為現在土地本都是公家署,還有土地代書一部分來做,所以我們其實兩年前就"},{"start":429.69,"end":433.034,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":447.699,"end":452.282,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":478.206,"end":478.388,"text":"二條案未開會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:49:12 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09:57:11","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154955","gazette":{"lineno":240,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（9時49分）感謝主席，我請董次長。"],["主席：好，請次長。"],["丁委員學忠：次長好。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：颱風又要來了。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["丁委員學忠：大家比較辛苦。"],["董次長建宏：不會，大家一起努力打拚。"],["丁委員學忠：上次凱米颱風來，雨水量在那兩、三天就下了一整年的量。很多區域不管是農田也好、村子也好、在市內也好，都造成很多地方淹水，下水道的清淤工程是國土署的業務吧？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["吳署長欣修：我們有補助地方政府，有一些是地方政府要自編的。"],["丁委員學忠：對。這樣做起來，署長在這裡，你覺得那個效益怎樣？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實事前的清淤絕對是最好的一個做法，可以減少很多我們想不到的問題。"],["丁委員學忠：我們有確實依照各縣市所報出來的需求給予幫助嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們大概每一年年初的時候都會邀集地方政府，現在在地比較大的問題，因為國土署這邊是負責都市內的，但是我們也知道整個系統出去到外面，有可能是屬於地方自己管的大排，或是中央管的河川，這就是整體的系統性，我是覺得可以再繼續加強啦，它主要差別在這裡，否則都市計畫內的部分，這十多年執行下來其實效果不錯。"],["丁委員學忠：是，除非說排水系統需要整體工程改善。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["丁委員學忠：否則清淤是非常重要的。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["丁委員學忠：從市區內到出水口的整體性清淤，我過去擔任鎮長，我們虎尾鎮是整個雲林縣人口數第二高的鄉鎮市，我們一年的下水道清淤工程經費只有30萬而已，署長，你知道30萬能夠清多長？"],["吳署長欣修：了解，因為這可以清的路段很少。"],["丁委員學忠：我是希望可以照地方需求做合理的補助，讓他們有辦法落實、達到工程的效果，不要提供一些經費應付你一下，再提供一些經費，再應付你一下，如果清頭清尾，中間不清，這樣也沒用，只是做給人家看的話，這樣也沒用。"],["吳署長欣修：是，感謝委員，我想這個部分今年結束之後我們再來檢討一下。"],["丁委員學忠：我知道之前中央有抑注嘉義縣、嘉義市比較多經費，上一次凱米颱風來的時候，根據整體報告受災的範圍就真的縮小了。"],["吳署長欣修：是，主要是系統性有做起來。"],["丁委員學忠：這就代表我們整理排水系統是真的有效果的，希望國土署、內政部可以針對各縣市的需求做合理補助，當然地方也要提出配合款，能夠確實來防範水災。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們會再來檢討，確實地方雨水下水道整體系統有的需要打通，有的需要重新檢討，這點我會加速來跟地方政府討論，看還有哪一些部分需要改進，有時候不是清淤的原因，有時候是系統性需要做一個調整。"],["丁委員學忠：有可能是工程要重做。"],["吳署長欣修：對，這部分我會跟地方政府再來檢討。"],["丁委員學忠：這個部分再麻煩署長多多費心。"],["吳署長欣修：是，這我們會努力。"],["丁委員學忠：上禮拜五質詢行政院的時候，有講到國土法，剛才也有很多委員關心這個議題，昨天又看到政府發新聞稿，強調國土法要如期上路，雖然沒有影響到農民的權利，但是配套措施只完成了14項，總共還有9項沒公告完成，預定要到年底才有辦法完成，這個資訊還不清楚，要怎麼確保不會犧牲農民的權利？次長。"],["董次長建宏：我跟委員報告，第一、我們會努力跟大家溝通，因為國土計畫法如同幾位委員所指教的，很多人還不太了解，當然我們會儘量跟大家說明清楚，這是第一點。第二、子法一定會在年底以前完成，在完成過程中會跟大家報告，這些子法對大家權益的保護。其實更重要的是委員所關切的農地問題，包括農地的補助，農地上面可以蓋什麼、可以做什麼，我剛才有報告過，以前是要用申請的，未來是用容許的，就是我們會規定農地上可以做什麼，農民就按照那個規範去處理就可以了，讓大家更便利。再來就是農地上的補助，農業部現在也很積極在處理，已經把法案送到行政院了，所以行政院那邊會趕快處理、審查，原則上就是一定會保護農民的權益，因為農民對我們臺灣社會來說是最重要的，我們的吃穿都是靠農民辛辛苦苦種植，所以我們一定要保護。"],["丁委員學忠：那一天我有請教農業部部長，都市計畫實施之後，農一土地相對的價值會降低嗎？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，其實農地的價值應該是農地本身在農業生產過程中的價值，委員所說的農業價值可能是指，如果有人想要把農地變更做別的使用的時候。這部分我請署長來說明。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為現在土地部分都是透過估價師還有一部分的土地代書來做，所以我們其實兩年多前就有透過地政司邀集公會一起來討論，包括過程中有跟他們多次座談，也有訓練，其實他們大概也都理解，如果現在正式由這個估價公會來執行，他們會了解這個土地其實跟過去相比沒什麼改變。第二、有一些使用還有稍微放寬，這部分就放在整體估價的系統裡面，估價其實沒有包含所謂的變更這部分。"],["董次長建宏：不過，目前看起來除了農地價格有一點……"],["丁委員學忠：沒關係，這個會期才剛開始，我們可以慢慢來討論，不要影響到其他委員的時間。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。"],["丁委員學忠：感謝次長跟署長。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝。"],["主席：請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:08:41","end_time":"2024-09-30T09:49:02+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154954","委員名稱":"黃建賓","duration":521,"start_time":"2024-09-30T09:40:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b77bf3fa64ef63c9be2c265252fbe14a89b341893f7f7175ffa85456fcb5f641e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.15284375,"end":6.814718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.67409375,"end":27.891593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.242843750000002,"end":21.344093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.96784375,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.254718750000002,"end":26.305343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.33034375,"end":30.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.40159375,"end":33.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.25784375,"end":33.291593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.78096875,"end":33.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.96659375,"end":36.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.48096875,"end":38.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.38784375,"end":38.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.92784375,"end":54.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.29659375000001,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.025968750000004,"end":59.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.90346875,"end":59.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.92034375,"end":59.954093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.03846875000001,"end":60.055343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.10596875,"end":60.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.12284375,"end":60.156593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.156593750000006,"end":61.759718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.063468750000006,"end":73.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.24721875,"end":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«都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"},{"start":372.512,"end":386.277,"text":"我跟委員報告,各縣市的國土計劃,我剛才講過在2021年各縣市的國土計劃是由各縣市政府進行相關的檢討,那根據各縣市地方政府的相關的需求,他去做檢討"},{"start":387.517,"end":393.74,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":413.029,"end":417.011,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具第六十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":438.464,"end":465.732,"text":"那最後想要問一下都市今天我們討論到都市更新的這個問題臺東縣的地理位置比較特別我們都換處比較多啦都是透天的透天處比較多那都市更新主要是讓我們區域內的環境衰敗公司缺乏自然惡化可以透過都市更新讓我們這個地方能夠再活化那雖然目標很宏大推動上可是其實很困難因為特別是在人性的部分建商跟人這個的糾紛會一直不斷嘛"},{"start":467.625,"end":470.347,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具《都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":486.881,"end":515.683,"text":"錯失跟委員報告其實以台東縣的狀況應該是適用危老危老機會會比較高那因為危老即便是透天厝他也有相關稅賦方面的一些獎勵就是說他在過程他可以減免一些稅賦那所以這一點我想都可以給委員參考因為像台南市中心區也有很多是透天厝他們後來也是改用這個方式來申請這都值得鼓勵謝謝市長也謝謝那個那個署長謝謝"},{"start":518.343,"end":518.483,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:40:21 - 09:49:02","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154954","gazette":{"lineno":205,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（9時40分）謝謝主席，請我們次長。"],["主席：好，請次長。"],["黃委員建賓：次長早安。"],["董次長建宏：委員早。"],["黃委員建賓：次長，其實我最近回去臺東跑選區的時候，很多民眾都在問：國土計畫法要實施嗎？我想要請教次長，我們當時為什麼要提國土計畫法？目的是什麼？簡單的講一下。"],["董次長建宏：好，國土計畫法是在2015年年底由當時的立法委員在馬總統執政任內所提出的，當時所提出的目的是希望能夠維持整個國土的空間秩序，透過國土空間秩序的維護，保障整體生態環境的安全跟臺灣國土的永續，這是當時立法的宗旨，也是當時立法的目的。"],["黃委員建賓：簡單的說，就是讓該發展的地方發展，需要保護的地方保護，讓我們的土地更加有效使用，應該是這樣嘛，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：差不多是這樣。"],["黃委員建賓：理想是很好的，不過現實其實還滿骨感的。部長，如果這個計畫真的這麼好，民進黨22個委員就不會在這一次集體出來開記者會，要求國土功能分區圖要延後來公布，你知不知道為什麼會出來說這個事情？"],["董次長建宏：相關的資訊我們會持續跟大家溝通，但是我要跟各位委員報告，整個法令在2018年的時候已經公布了全國國土計畫，在2021年的時候，各縣市的國土計畫也都送上來了。這一次的套疊圖就是將2021年各縣市所公布的國土計畫去套疊上地籍資料，就是這樣。這個套疊的過程當然就有很多可以討論的地方，各縣市政府應該本於權責去討論各縣市的狀況，我相信各縣市政府他們會積極去運作。站在本部的立場，我們就是依法，我們希望各縣市把套疊出來的資料送上來之後，我們大家進一步來討論。"],["黃委員建賓：是啦！但是，次長，會有這麼多委員跳出來要求要延後，其實最重要、最重要的原因就是民眾的反應最直接啦！因為他們很怕什麼？很怕國土計畫法會破壞他的土地價值，就是我一開始講的，我回去選區，大家都問：阿賓啊，這到底會執行嗎？因為他擔心他的土地啦！他擔心他的土地。因為過去我們區域計畫法將非都市計畫分為11種分區使用，像農業區、森林區，還有19種用地，甲建、乙建、農牧用地、林業用地等等很多很多種地目，民眾其實也習慣在自己的土地上可以按照自己的需求來做他所需要，並且在法令上能夠允許的地目變更，農地也可以轉做建地，民眾在土地使用限制上是比較低的。現在國土計畫法訂定之後，它是全國性的、政策性的、整體性的空間發展計畫，未來是劃分成國土保育地區、海洋資源地區、農業發展地區，還有城鄉發展地區等四大區，這麼多，農民們一點都不懂，其實他們想要了解的就是，以後我的土地使用會不會受到限制？農民是很怕以後這塊土地在自己年紀大，不想再繼續耕作了，而子女又不願意耕作，那麼這塊土地是不是永遠只可以當農地而已？也就是農地世襲化啦！這樣的害怕，次長，你知道、你可以體會嗎？"],["董次長建宏：好，跟委員報告，首先，過去整個區域計畫法是11種用地方式、19種地目，在這個過程裡面，其實造成很多有能力的人就去申請改變，而沒有能力的人其實也沒辦法申請改變。未來我們的國土計畫法是用容許許可的，就是我們直接告訴大家，你這個土地上本來就可以做什麼，比方說各位委員所垂詢的、比較關心的，有關於農地方面的，我們在農地上面可以做什麼，其實都很明確，只要是在這個農地上面允許的項目，你自己就可以去作業了。"],["黃委員建賓：對啦！次長，本席的意思是，當然是現在這個狀況都沒有問題，但未來假設像農民所說的，未來如果不再繼續務農，他的土地，他的子女要怎麼辦？好，部長，本席也知道……"],["董次長建宏：在未來的時候我們有鄉村規劃，各縣市可以依據鄉村規劃的方式去進行檢討，而且每5年、每10年都可以做一次檢討，這個跟都市計畫其實是一樣的。我們透過國土計畫法，在未來其實反而讓原本非都的土地擁有跟都市計畫一樣的狀態，它可以隨時有一些檢討的機制，它可以做整體空間的討論跟改善，它不會是固定在那邊不變。就如同剛才委員所垂詢的，國土計畫的目的是要讓我們的國土更有效的使用，所以它本來就會定期去檢討，而不是像過去，有能力的人才能夠去變更。"],["黃委員建賓：對，我們當然相信這個計畫法推動對整個未來的發展是有幫助的，不過就像本席一直強調的，如果這麼好，就不會有這麼多委員跳出來說我們先踩剎車，稍微想一下，這個規劃要好好考慮一下，因為影響的層面非常大。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["黃委員建賓：像我們講到農一、農二，次長可能覺得農一、農二差距不大，如果差距不大的話，屏東縣政府就曾經把農一跟農二大量劃分，做很大的區隔。以屏東縣來說，農一是5,778公頃，農二的面積達到57,296公頃，農一、農二的比例是1比10，本席所在的臺東縣也是以農業為主的縣市，但我們的比例就不是這樣子，我們臺東縣的比例，農一是10,866，農二是6,745。屏東當時的縣長應該是潘孟安縣長，他在國土會議的時候就有說，那時候國土計畫法，農業部還說屏東縣政府劃設的農一跟農二相差四萬多公頃，這個部分，屏東縣可以這樣劃，其他縣市可不可以也這樣劃？"],["董次長建宏：我跟委員報告，各縣市的國土計畫，我剛才講過，在2021年各縣市的國土計畫是由各縣市政府進行相關的檢討……"],["黃委員建賓：所以其他縣市也可以這樣比照嗎？"],["董次長建宏：根據各縣市地方政府的相關需求去做檢討，那麼農一、農二的劃設是以坵塊的完整性跟未來農地的發展性來做指引。有些地區它本身的坵塊狀況，還有農業發展狀況就不一，所以每個縣市政府……"],["黃委員建賓：所以各縣市有不同的標準，是這個意思嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對，每個縣市政府要依據農業部所規範的一些東西做一些檢討。"],["黃委員建賓：次長，你一定要有統一標準嘛！"],["董次長建宏：標準是統一的啊！"],["黃委員建賓：那為什麼屏東縣可以這樣劃？其他像雲林縣也可以這樣劃嗎？"],["董次長建宏：他要根據相關的規範，因為有的是坵塊比較完整，我剛才講過，坵塊的完整性是劃設農一、農二的差異性。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝次長。次長，其實這個問題真的有需要再深入討論，各縣市都很擔心。"],["董次長建宏：是，我們會積極跟各縣市溝通，目前有13個縣市送進來了，像嘉義市跟苗栗縣已經也宣示他們會送進來。"],["黃委員建賓：好。最後我想要問一下，今天我們討論到都市更新的問題，臺東縣的地理位置比較特別，我們都是以「販厝」為多，就是透天厝比較多，都市更新主要是讓我們區域內的環境衰敗、公共設施缺乏、治安惡化可以透過都市更新讓這個地方能夠再活化。都市更新雖然目標很宏大，推動上其實很困難，特別是在人性的部分，建商跟人的糾紛會一直不斷。我的故鄉──臺東縣大部分的房子都是透天厝，在這一次的修法裡面其實不太適用，因為我們大概都是30年以上的透天厝，而臺東其實也需要都市更新，這部分在未來是不是能夠請內政部協助我們臺東縣政府做這部分的措施？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實以臺東縣的狀況應該是適用危老，機會會比較高。因為危老即便是透天厝，它也有相關稅負方面的一些獎勵，就是說它在過程當中可以減免一些稅負，所以這一點我想都可以提供給委員參考，像臺南市中心區也有很多是透天厝，他們後來也是改用這個方式來申請，這都值得鼓勵。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝次長，也謝謝署長。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們接下來請丁學忠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:08:45","end_time":"2024-09-30T09:40:14+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154953","委員名稱":"許宇甄","duration":525,"start_time":"2024-09-30T09:31:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bcf8ffaa4ceacb1ffe2c265252fbe14a89b341893f7f7175f7924f3be77b3115f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.806593750000001,"end":7.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.64159375,"end":8.552843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.93534375,"end":19.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.711593750000002,"end":19.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.06159375,"end":36.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.144718750000003,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.245968750000003,"end":28.296593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.688468750000002,"end":31.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.70096875,"end":32.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.94534375,"end":35.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02",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09:40:14","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154953","gazette":{"lineno":150,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（9時31分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請董次長？"],["主席：好，請董次。"],["許委員宇甄：次長早。"],["董次長建宏：委員早。"],["許委員宇甄：次長，我想請教您，根據今年Q1的資料，全臺住宅平均屋齡已經達到32年，其中屋齡30年以上的比例就達51%；50年以上的就有101萬戶，也就是平均兩間就有一間是30年以上的老房子，請問一下，對於老房子的重建，我們現在的政策是什麼？只要是老房子就可以用危老條例嗎？"],["董次長建宏：原則上我們的都更條例跟危老條例都可以適用，因為危險暨老舊是兩個條件，一個是危險，一個是老舊，所以只要是老舊的房子，它也可以提出。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，其實採用危老條例之後，都更可能就更加困難了，為什麼？因為危老條例並沒有限制改建的基地面積對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["許委員宇甄：所以像現在臺南就有一個9.13坪的建築面積重建，這樣其實就造成臺灣可能會有很多像餅乾樓、竹竿樓這種狀況，都市景觀也會越來越醜。所以像這樣的一個狀況，目前我們的都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例的實施期限是訂在116年的5月31號，未來政府打算怎麼做呢？"],["董次長建宏：首先跟委員報告，小面積的建築我們當然會檢討，但是它其實也是屬於條例符合的內容，我們也鼓勵相關的建物……其實當初在制定的時候，就是希望降低一些都更的門檻，讓真正危險的房子能夠有重建的機會，這是小面積的部分，而小面積獎勵當然就比較少，所以我們會積極來做一些研擬。相關的危老條例我們也會進行檢討，因為期限將屆，我們已經推動相關課題的檢討，至於國內外危險建物一些重建制度的研析，還有一些產官學的意見……"],["許委員宇甄：像這個危老時程容積獎勵應該是到明年就會結束……"],["董次長建宏：對，時程我們會落日。"],["許委員宇甄：那這個時程就不會再延了？"],["董次長建宏：對，時程我們會落日。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，我想請教一下，現在營造業因為受到疫情、通膨跟人口結構多重的影響，所以社會住宅營建成本也提高很多，請問一下，目前社會住宅每坪的營建成本大概要多少？請吳署長。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員詢問，現在北中南的狀況不太一樣，北部尤其是臺北大概最高22到23萬；可是在南部的話大概是17到18；中部的部分大概是18到19左右，所以各地不一，但是的確像委員講的，有提高的現象。"],["許委員宇甄：對，這樣的話，內政部針對這個部分要怎麼因應？有沒有什麼具體的措施？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們一方面是鼓勵，因為現在降不下來的其實最主要是工資，材料、建材有一些部分都降價，但剩工資降不下來，所以我們都鼓勵營造廠能夠多提出一些類似像預鑄或是系統模板，這類的話它可以減少人力的使用。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛署長提到預鑄的部分，其實以這個部分，我知道內政部建築研究所在今年的2月就已經公告建築物預鑄率申請評定作業要點……"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["許委員宇甄：但是應該由內政部提出的預鑄工法容積獎勵修法，原來應該是上半年就要規劃、應該要提出來的，但目前好像跳票喔？所以是什麼狀況？"],["吳署長欣修：也跟委員報告，最主要是因為經過詳細的市場調查，現在有能力承作而且是長時間承作的家數比較少，我們也擔心，如果因為這樣提出預鑄工法就可以獲得容獎的話，很可能只有少數的廠商能夠使用。所以我們接著也在討論，如果不寫預鑄工法，而是改用這一類像我們剛剛所講的系統模板的，是不是它也可以適用？"],["許委員宇甄：請問什麼時候可以提出？"],["吳署長欣修：我們最近會開會再來修正，因為最主要是調查……"],["許委員宇甄：因為就你剛剛講的狀況的話，這種預鑄廠商不可能在短期內就會增加……"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以我們最主要是修改那個工法內容。"],["許委員宇甄：這樣子的話，大概什麼時候可以提出？總不可能這樣一直無限期的下去吧？"],["吳署長欣修：我瞭解，跟委員報告，我們在年底之前會做一份報告出來，來分析一下這整個適用的一個市場性是怎麼樣，然後再來做決定。"],["許委員宇甄：希望還是要，因為不管是容積獎勵辦法到國土計畫法的子法，其實到現在都還是很延宕，內政部都是慢吞吞的，希望能夠儘快的加速。"],["董次長建宏：我們會再加速。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，我再請教一下次長，我們最近網路手機一直在轉傳，我們看到一個賴總統錄影宣導的一個影片「若欲活落來」就要好好的準備緊急避難包，要準備水、乾糧、醫療包紮物品、手電筒、衣褲。總統府在之前又召開了全社會防衛韌性委員會，今年12月要做桌上的兵推，明年3月要地方演練，然後還要成立40萬民兵由內政部這邊擔任主責單位加以訓練。請問一下次長，我們現在是要打仗了嗎？不然為什麼我接到很多鄉親的電話都說：為什麼要傳這種影片？感覺他們都心生惶恐！"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，剛才已經報告過了，我們是依據民防法、消防法、災害防救法等等去做準備，這個的重點，我剛才還是強調是針對我們的自然災害跟天然災害的發生……"],["許委員宇甄：以前沒有嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們是強化，我們要強化，因為我剛才講過「先自救，才能他救」，我們要訓練所有的國人，針對這樣一個危險的狀況……"],["許委員宇甄：好，請問一下內政部要配合這些事情的話，預計要花費多少的預算跟經費？"],["董次長建宏：我們目前正在估算當中，大概相關……"],["許委員宇甄：因為我在預算書裡面好像沒有看到編列相關的經費，除了你原來之前的，現在這個新的事情……"],["董次長建宏：我們是依據目前相關的經費去做推動，因為這些東西本來在民防法裡面就有規範，我們是積極去處理……"],["許委員宇甄：本來我們民防大概是20萬人力嘛，你現在變成40萬民兵，所以你還是用原來的經費去推動的話，這個部分你們有辦法推動嗎？"],["董次長建宏：因為我們有包括義交還有義勇大隊，我們一些相關的人力……"],["許委員宇甄：所以這個部分相關的經費，是不是能夠請在一週內送給我們內政委員會？"],["董次長建宏：好，我們會儘速提供。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，在9月27號的全社會防衛韌性委員會會後的記者會，我們劉部長有提到宮廟是放香火的，不是放軍火的。可是其實在6月的時候，確實有宮廟收到苗栗縣後備指揮部的公文，要求簽署彈藥預屯點支援協定書，請問這個部分是不是暗示我們這些彈藥有可能會放在宮廟裡呢？"],["董次長建宏：沒有，我想當初那個公文其實不是這個意思，我們只是要去瞭解周邊環境的狀況，我要再一次強調，宮廟本來就是放香火，不是放軍火，我們希望是透過整個全民民防的加強，特別是針對我們一些相關物資的準備，因為有很多物資需要準備的地方，像今天颱風，比方說颱風我們需要……"],["許委員宇甄：次長，既然這樣的話……"],["董次長建宏：宮廟有一些資訊的準備或物資的準備……"],["許委員宇甄：對，因為大家都知道宮廟就是有香火的地方，不可能放彈藥嘛！這真的危險性高……"],["董次長建宏：但是它可以放一些相關的物資嘛！我們一些物資的準備應該可以放在那邊……"],["許委員宇甄：好，所以是不是請內政部可以發函給苗栗後備指揮部，副本給國防部，要求不得與宮廟簽訂彈藥預屯點支援協定書？"],["董次長建宏：我們來瞭解一下狀況。"],["許委員宇甄：好，這個部分麻煩，如果放的是一些戰備儲糧，當然原則上沒有問題，但是如果是彈藥的話就絕對萬萬不可。"],["董次長建宏：我們會瞭解一下狀況。"],["許委員宇甄：好，再麻煩董次長，謝謝。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝許委員。","我們請黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:07:30","end_time":"2024-09-30T09:31:23+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154952","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","duration":450,"start_time":"2024-09-30T09:23:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bb27e035d35a1e0cce2c265252fbe14a89b341893f7f7175f319244cd862d27405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.81971875,"end":2.6297187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.020968750000002,"end":11.168468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.30346875,"end":11.320343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.320343750000003,"end":11.337218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.337218750000002,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.35409375,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.89409375,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start"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09:31:23","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154952","gazette":{"lineno":119,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時23分）謝謝主席，有請董次長。"],["主席：好，請董次。"],["麥委員玉珍：次長好。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：請教一下，住宅租賃定型化契約改為實支實收，課予房東有提供電費資訊的義務，但是上個月陸續有地方政府進行稽查，市面上販賣的「市售住宅租賃契約書」還是舊的，如果買到舊版簽約怎麼辦？第二個，次長可不可以保證加速改善這件事情，不要讓租客的權益受損？還有，除了定型契約之外，本辦接到很多的陳情，表示實施新的電費後，房東變相漲房租，公共電費也上漲，巧立名目將電費轉嫁到房客的負擔，次長知道這個事情嗎？"],["董次長建宏：知道。跟委員及各位委員報告，首先第一個，市售契約書我們已經更新了，在本部的網站上面都有新的資料，我們也建議房客或者是房東如果買到舊的契約書，可以從網站上面下載之後做一個修正。我們也要求相關的契約書應該要進行一些修正，就是舊版的契約書應該可以浮貼做一些修正，這個我們正在要求當中。所以我們會有新的契約書即將趕快上市，在我們的網站上已經公布新版的，然後我們也要求廠商要將舊版的資料做回收或者是補正。","至於有關於房東變相漲價的部分，我也跟委員報告，本部已經進行相關的處理，針對有一些房東惡意漲價，一經相關人員提報，我們就馬上法辦，所以我們都有去處理。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，所以希望網站都有再去登記……"],["董次長建宏：對，我們……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們如何要有一個機制……"],["董次長建宏：有，我們正在加速，我們都在加速，然後新版的會儘速上去。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以漲價這個部分，我們要嚴格來去把關，還有在履行中的舊合約不能漲價，但是很多就是簽約後還想要再漲，很多房東逼得房客要簽新的合約，這樣子的話，我們如何防範還有解決？因為內政部……"],["董次長建宏：我們有法扶的機制，會提供大家進行相關的法律協助。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，內政部這邊口口聲聲說要處理，剛才次長也是說要處理。房客也可以向縣市政府消保或者地政單位提出申訴或檢舉，但是檢舉後，房客身分就曝光了，房東就說不續約了，這樣子合理嗎？"],["董次長建宏：沒有，我們會協助房客進行相關的協商，然後房東不得任意漲價，也不得無故更換契約，這個都有法律明定，那我們會有法扶的機制去協助處理。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，但是因為有很多不敢，曝光了就變成房東說因為你在檢舉，我才曝光的嘛！這個部分就是要……"],["董次長建宏：對，我們會加強協助。"],["麥委員玉珍：要加強去保護我們的租客，因為租屋現在亂象很多，電費也漲價，這樣的話就是很重要的一個民生問題，租屋族已經很辛苦，不應該再被剝一層皮，我們要求次長這邊一定要加強去稽查。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們要如何加速社會住宅的改革還有合理負擔，讓我們租屋族的生活壓力可以減少，這個部分我們次長都有答應嘛！"],["董次長建宏：對，我們法扶基金會還有相關的法律諮詢服務都有在展開，從8月1號開始就會提供租屋族免費的法律服務資訊，在我們相關的網站還有法扶單位裡面都可以，如果有相關的訴訟，我們的法扶也會提供免費律師的協助。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，第二題想要請教一下，賴清德總統說要培訓40萬民力投入全社會防衛，請問這個法源依據在哪裡？第二個，根據民防法規定，內政部可以訓練民力，但是都是要自願的性質，憑什麼叫大家都要參加？還有後備軍人可以教召，替代役男也可以動員，全社會防衛韌性委員會沒有法源依據、沒有立法，根本不能動員，更沒有預算的支出，請問次長如何解決？還有，全社會防衛韌性委員的預算從哪裡來？由哪一個部會編列？可以請次長解釋嗎？"],["董次長建宏：好，首先我們的法源依據是依據民防法，在民防法第一條裡面就有明確的規定，為了有效運用民力，發揮民間自衛自救功能，達到平時災防救護的狀態，所以我們去進行相關民防的動員。相關民防動員的工作範圍包括搶救重大災害，還有維持地方治安或者擔任民間自衛。整個民防團體的組織是由直轄市還有相關的單位，它會有所謂的民防總隊以及我們在特種的一些單位，比方說公民營事業裡面就有特種防護單位，這些都是為了要保護在面對緊急狀況的時候，比方說像今天有颱風，颱風來的時候會有一些風災的狀況、會有一些自然災害的狀況，我們其實都需要訓練這些人，其實是自救、他救，我們先能夠自救，訓練相關的人力，才能夠有他救。"],["麥委員玉珍：講得很好，沒有法源的依據可以動支政府的預算嗎？根本違法行政……"],["董次長建宏：有，我們有法源的依據……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們要求……"],["董次長建宏：民防法裡面有明確的規定。我剛才跟委員解釋，民防法有明確的規定，民防法第一條、第二條都有明確的說明，相關的人力……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我說你講得很好，依據你講的，我要求在一週內可以提出具體的報告，讓我們了解詳細的規劃，這樣的話是讓更多人去了解，因為就先聽你說而已，但是我看了是沒有法源的依據。"],["董次長建宏：是，沒問題，我們會提供相關的資料。謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝。我們繼續請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:08:17","end_time":"2024-09-30T09:23:37+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154951","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","duration":497,"start_time":"2024-09-30T09:15:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bcf803847d10d60f1e2c265252fbe14a89b341893f7f7175f59b49dd81b19eb4c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.65096875,"end":1.7522187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.7522187500000002,"end":1.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.78596875,"end":1.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.80284375,"end":1.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.81971875,"end":2.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.17409375,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.68034375,"end":5.886593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.333468750000002,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.73409375,"end":102.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.13721875,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.09034375,"end":106.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.76534375,"end":107.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.89596875000001,"end":119.64096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.74221875,"end":128.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.15909375000001,"end":125.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.68221875,"end":126.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.36534375,"end":135.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.74409375000002,"end":137.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.39346875,"end":154.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.73096875000002,"end":138.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.72034375,"end":151.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.15471875,"end":165.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.93471875,"end":157.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02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和第七項、第六項"},{"start":263.666,"end":277.692,"text":"第七項裡面其實寫得很清楚啊是我們整個都市要能夠發展一定要有一個大的框架整體來規劃一個城市規劃了之後即便在城市裡面分區也會有分區的都市計畫沒錯然後你在分區的都市計畫下面"},{"start":284.935,"end":295.685,"text":"你才可以就每一個案件去決定它的樣態包括它的容積率上限等等所以導回來每一件個案不應該超越分區的計畫更不應該超越整個都市的計畫我的理解應該是這樣沒有錯吧"},{"start":300.549,"end":317.566,"text":"都是應該我們的第六段特別有講要回歸尚未計劃人因回歸嘛對對而且要符合細則的規定所以是在第六段有了一個因字其實你已經寫得很客氣了第六段寫人因第七段寫避免你在寫得太客氣了有時候人家看不見啦"},{"start":320.869,"end":331.996,"text":"對啊第七段你既然第六段是人應回歸第七段就寫不應啊不應該是個案這樣就不會有差別不會有解釋的空間了嘛不然現在媒體把你解釋說國土署出了一個函說這個個案是合理的是合法的我感覺這樣不會通啦並沒有嘛所以今天在這裡給你一點時間就這件案件特別去澄清所以你的態度是這樣嘛沒錯"},{"start":349.688,"end":369.454,"text":"對,董事,內政部的態度也是一樣嗎?對,我們不針對個案解釋,我們只希望都市的發展應該有一個總量的管制。好,我也沒有就這個個案有比你更多的了解,但是我從一個立法委員在看整個中央法規和地方之間,中央地方的關係來講,我想最後我應該下一個結論啦,那"},{"start":371.135,"end":394.013,"text":"都市計劃確實是非常的重要影響一個城市的發展所以我想內政部你們是不是應該要能夠督促除了你們自己管轄的台灣所謂的台灣省就是其他各縣市之外直轄市政府要怎麼去制定施行施責或自治條例要在裡面要規定通案原則我想這個是應該你們作為督導的單位應該要下去盤整並且如果還沒有制定的就應該要求他們趕快制定吧"},{"start":401.658,"end":425.844,"text":"可以加速處理那你大概什麼時候會完成這個檢核檢視並且下指令要求我們會在一個月內就把它全部確認清楚好一個月之內全部確認清楚每個直轄市是不是有適當的在施行施責或自治條例內訂定了這個通案原則一個月之內請提交報告到我們這個給我們辦公室甚至是內政委員會好這是第一個部分"},{"start":426.884,"end":429.847,"text":"第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署第二案如未經各黨團簽署"},{"start":448.001,"end":465.249,"text":"也開了會針對之前的幾項缺失您做了調整那我想請問這個政策方向如果改變要能夠直接上路的話應該要有要點訂定吧是董事什麼時候要點可以出來因為方向很好啊你也都支持啦我們在半年內就會完成"},{"start":466.348,"end":467.509,"text":"三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:15:20 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09:23:37","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","id":"154951","gazette":{"lineno":66,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時15分）謝謝主席，我們請董次。謝謝董次。"],["主席：請董次。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我本來想問部長，但是董次也是專家。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們今天要處理都市更新條例，所有的委員不管是來自臺灣的哪一個地區都希望老舊的屋舍能夠加強更新速度，所以今天不管是行政院的提案版本，抑或是我們剛剛聽到兩位委員的提案版本，其實在文字上幾乎是一模一樣的狀況，相信我們大家對於在實施容積管制前已申請完成或已申請建造執照之合法建築物，能夠放寬到這個部分，我想應該是大家的共識，所以等一下的修法希望能夠很快順利進行，這是合先敘明第一點。","但是如果講到都市更新，最近因為是熱門新聞的關係，我們會看到很多容積率的相關問題，我比較好奇的是，吳欣修署長所屬的國土署出了一份函，所以被外界引用為現在最熱門的京華城爭議，竟然說是由國土署出了函，證明京華城容積率這件事情是合法的，我想聽聽看吳署長、董次及內政部國土署，你們對這封函的解釋是這樣嗎？你們已經就個案認為它合法了嗎？請說明。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，其實那一天最主要在詢問的是有關容積率訂定的部分，所以我們會把整個全國性的容積率獎勵的政策去做一個說明。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你們被詢問的是「都市計畫容積管制及獎勵容積法源」中央及地方法規釋疑嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以我們當然是希望，因為從中央到地方都優先以訂定法規……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以你希望中央跟地方都訂定法規？"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以在地方當然是屬於都市計畫的施行細則，或是地方對於都市計畫法規有所謂的自治條例，這個就是優先，因為它才會叫做全市一體適用，而不是就單一個案來訂定。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為我只有5分鐘加2分鐘的時間，你可不可以簡單解釋一下，你出的這份函一共長達3頁有七大項，這裡面的主旨重點到底是什麼？"],["吳署長欣修：主旨重點當然是把過去到現在所謂的容積率獎勵訂定作業以及中間監察院糾正的方向予以釐清。"],["蘇委員巧慧：第一個講歷史脈絡。然後呢？"],["吳署長欣修：對。第二個就是希望各縣市政府能夠依照中央的要求，去分別訂定相關的細則或是自治條例，去把它訂在內，最後一段再特別聲明這個部分不宜再去由個案來自行訂定。"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，我也很認真地讀了你這份函的七大項，我同意函裡面所講的，重點就是第一，你講的都市計畫的歷史脈絡；第二，你認為確實因為一個大的都市計畫法下去之後到各個地方要因地方制宜，所以可以有臺灣省的都市計畫實施細則，但直轄市就由直轄市來訂定。沒有錯，由直轄市來訂定，我想請問現在臺灣這麼多個直轄市裡面，哪幾個有訂，哪幾個沒訂？"],["吳署長欣修：其實現在各個直轄市都有細則，臺北市是屬於自治條例和細則都有，所以都是分別要求他們在裡面去訂定，這才叫全市一體適用。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你這邊也要求了各個地方政府要自行訂定之後，其實你在第六項和第七項應該要把它寫得更清楚一點，第七項裡面其實寫得很清楚，整個都市要能夠發展，一定要有一個大的框架來整體規劃，一個城市規劃了之後，即便在城市裡面分區也會有分區的都市計畫。"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：然後你在分區的都市計畫下面才可以就每一個案件去決定它的樣態，包括它的容積率上限等等，所以倒回來，每一件個案不應該超越分區的計畫，更不應該超越整個都市的計畫，我的理解應該是這樣，沒有錯吧？"],["吳署長欣修：都是應該，我們的第六段特別有講都要回歸上位計畫。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊，「仍應回歸」。"],["吳署長欣修：對，而且要符合細則的規定。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以在第六段有一個「應」字，其實你已經寫得很客氣了，第六段寫「仍應」，第七段寫「避免」，你寫得太客氣，有時候人家看不懂，既然第六段是「仍應回歸」，第七段就寫「不應」，不應該視個案，這樣就不會有差別，不會有再解釋的空間了，不然現在媒體把你解釋成國土署出了一個函說這個個案是合理的、是合法的，我覺得這樣不通啦！"],["吳署長欣修：並沒有，從來都……"],["蘇委員巧慧：並沒有嘛！所以今天在這裡給你一點時間，就這件案件特別去澄清，所以你的態度是這樣嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：董次長，內政部的態度也是一樣嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對，我們不針對個案解釋，我們只希望都市的發展應該要有一個總量的管制。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我也沒有就這個個案有比你更多的瞭解，但是我從一個立法委員在看整個中央法規和地方之間，中央、地方的關係來講，我想最後我應該下一個結論：都市計畫確實是非常重要，影響一個城市的發展，所以內政部是不是應該要能夠督促，除了你們自己管轄的所謂的臺灣省，也就是其他各縣市之外，直轄市政府要怎麼去制定施行細則或自治條例，要在裡面規定通案原則，我想這個你們作為督導的單位應該要下去盤整，並且如果還沒有制定的，就應該要要求他們趕快制定吧！"],["董次長建宏：會，我們會加速處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：可以加速喔？那你大概什麼時候會完成檢核、檢視，並且下指令要求？"],["吳署長欣修：我們會在1個月內就把它全部確認清楚。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，1個月之內全部確認清楚，每個直轄市是不是有適當的在施行細則或自治條例內訂定通案原則，1個月之內請提交報告給我們辦公室，甚至是內政委員會。"],["董次長建宏：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是第一個部分，謝謝吳署長，您可以回座。","第二個部分的話，我也特別要再請董次，上次在5月的時候，我也是質詢您，很感謝您有告訴我們都市更新事業的優惠貸款，您願意做一個調整嘛！對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：也開了會，針對之前的幾項缺失，您做了調整。那我想請問這個政策方向如果改變，要能夠直接上路的話，應該要有要點訂定吧？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：董次，什麼時候要點可以出來？因為方向很好，你也都支持啦！"],["董次長建宏：我們在半年內就會完成。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是開完會的半年，不能從今天起算半年吧！這樣又差兩個月了。"],["董次長建宏：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：3個月啦！3個月之內提出要點，你方向都已經有了嘛！3個月之內啦！好不好？董次。"],["董次長建宏：好，沒問題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：都市更新的貸款要點既然已經有修正方向了，麻煩在3個月之內把要點訂定出來。"],["董次長建宏：好，沒問題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝董次。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:11:33","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:15:53+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154950","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","duration":693,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:04:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b839041cc050c5d9010639eb4554d3b099b341893f7f7175f6814c5f3722842645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.66659375,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.09659375,"end":12.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.239093750000002,"end":18.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.91409375,"end":32.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.751593750000005,"end":33.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.97471875,"end":39.619718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.39659375,"end":36.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.60721875,"end":56.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.78721875,"end":48.141593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.174093750000004,"end":68.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.21846875,"end":72.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.25596875000001,"end":72.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.55971875,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.28409375000001,"end":81.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.79034375,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start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像GS"},{"start":201.355,"end":222.964,"text":"目前我們國家都沒有認定可是像世界很多的大廠包括Apple他們包括通信他們都認定那我們怎麼去處理這個問題就公平會來講他宣稱他得到什麼認證不管是這個國際認可或不認可我們會跟環境部來"},{"start":224.962,"end":239.647,"text":"徵詢意見最主要就是說你說你得到哪裡的認證就必須是那裡的認證所以說跟環境部再去溝通這個部分那我目前可以接受這個狀態因為目前這個還在進行當中那我為什麼會問這個問題是因為我在上個會期我曾經問過了一個電信業者的合併案那麼我們公平會在去年就是通過兩個附帶條件的合併案"},{"start":253.331,"end":273.981,"text":"包括了就是遠傳病亞太去年的7月20號那麼包括了臺灣大哥大病臺灣之心去年的10月10號都有附帶條件那我當時也問了這個問題就是說他合併之後服務品質如果嚴重下降訊號網速都不穩定但上次主委你有回應我就說"},{"start":275.305,"end":296.836,"text":"您說NCC本身有一個觀測小組公平會會跟NCC保持溝通那我想問一下目前觀測的結果是怎麼樣子我想這兩個結合案在公平會我們會去關注他有沒有履行我們付的負擔至於他這個網路品質的監控我們也有就是NCC有沒有結果出來"},{"start":303.434,"end":325.445,"text":"退後再出來我先舉個例子給你這是消費者直接公佈出來的狀態這個其實是台灣之心被病怒台哥大之後那麼消費者用了一個臺大祭祀中心的一個軟體自己測出來的一個結果那其中下載的部分大概在1Mbps到5Mbps的速度"},{"start":326.465,"end":340.293,"text":"那上傳的部分在1Mbps到4Mbps左右的速度這直接大家在網路上公佈出來都很清楚那我想請問一下公平會就是主委你知道說我們正常手機4G的網路下載速度是多少嗎?"},{"start":342.912,"end":370.667,"text":"不是很清楚的掌握這一些不是很清楚所以上次我質詢之後你顯然沒有去follow整個電訊合併之後所產生那個狀態所以我今天在追問的時候請你沒有辦法回應出來像正常的時候40到70M是正常的一個情況在台北的時候不管在台灣在怎麼樣台北到70是很正常的台灣到處至少20M以上都是很基本的一個門檻可是你看"},{"start":374.068,"end":376.392,"text":"臺哥大變了臺灣之星之後只到1到5咩?這樣的狀態是不是有嚴重影響到消費者的權益?"},{"start":385.575,"end":413.648,"text":"若通訊品質沒有達到應該有的這個品質這是有消費者保護的問題所以公平會這邊是不是應該要出手要針對這個事情電信業者合併之後沒有達到他們該提供出來的消費品質公平會是不是應該要出手公平會在當時準結合的時候有一些負擔那這些負擔比較是從這個競爭秩序方面去談的那當然消費者的保護"},{"start":415.969,"end":438.547,"text":"競爭秩序是一塊沒有問題可是消費者保護一定是公平會很重要的一個目標成立公平會很重要的一個目標所以我希望針對這個部分主委你後續再去追蹤一下後續再給本席一個很清楚的一個報告好不好我會跟委員說明這個NCC的負擔跟我們的負擔差別在哪然後針對消費者權益的部分然後NCC這邊"},{"start":441.029,"end":462.84,"text":"顯然沒有很積極去處理這個事情那麼我們是要公平會這邊出手因為現在NCC其實也很亂那我想說針對這個部分再給本席一個完整的一個書面資料那我接下來還要再問一個你剛剛提到就是公平交易法第21條那我想問一下預售屋預售屋的不實廣告你怎麼認定"},{"start":464.367,"end":485.631,"text":"預售屋的不實廣告就是他廣告說他有什麼就要有什麼是所以基本上也是用公平交易法第21條對於有虛偽不實或引人錯誤的表示或表徵基本上這是一個很重要的一個判斷標準對不對是是嗎OK那第42條直接表示說OK那他可以處5萬元到2500萬以下的一個罰款應該也是這樣的一個條件對不對是OK好我想問一個具體的一個個案"},{"start":494.182,"end":517.262,"text":"來 主委你看到這樣右邊這樣子的一個廣告的時候他說已經預留華南銀行貸款額度安信購屋華南銀行信託保證這樣的一個廣告的時候你覺得會不會誤導民眾我為什麼會提這個問題因為這個問題是在這一波央行打房之後還持續的廣告"},{"start":519.161,"end":538.963,"text":"如果他說有預留華南銀行的額度結果沒有這個就是不實廣告如果沒有的時候就不實廣告所以我們如果看到這個他說預留華南銀行貸款額度的時候那我們去買了房子到時候華南銀行沒有貸款給我們的時候這個建商就會出問題是這個意思嗎我的意思是說你廣告說什麼就要有什麼"},{"start":539.684,"end":568.013,"text":"所以我說你看嘛右邊這廣告已經預留華南銀行貸款額度安心購屋那這樣子算不算是一個不實廣告算不算有誤導民眾需要去查因為我們在看的是不實以至於誤導如果沒有不實就不會到誤導的問題那這樣子算不算不實主委你的專業你這樣直接看算不算不實是不是真的有華南銀行貸款是怎麼說的這個是需要了解的"},{"start":569.011,"end":579.841,"text":"那是不是會誤導民眾來做購屋因為現在央行現在這一波打房之後出現很多的狀態是很多銀行都說了銀根都不願意再放款出來喔"},{"start":582.132,"end":598.101,"text":"會不會誤導又看各每個不同消費者的認知那主委這個部分我想說請主委這邊再跟我們內政部地政司這邊跟消保行政院消保處這邊的時候去做一個完整一點點的一個"},{"start":600.262,"end":602.484,"text":"公平交易委員會對於預售銷售行為案件的處理原則裡面規範的沒有那麼樣的細緻所以我們希望"},{"start":619.673,"end":620.534,"text":"最後一個部分就是針對"},{"start":638.937,"end":667.864,"text":"建保就是醫療相關的一個掛號費這個部分的時候他算不算是一個聯合行為這一波很多都漲價了在相近的時間都漲價算不算聯合行為有沒有就有漲價是一個客觀事實我們會去看看他們橫向有沒有勾結談價他們肯定有開過會公會裡面肯定有開過會因為我看到你報告裡面針對很多公會的部分包括土木公會"},{"start":668.584,"end":668.884,"text":"主席主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:04:20 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10:15:53","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154950","gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時4分）謝謝主席。我想請一下李鎂主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委好。詐騙廣告現在也是在公平會這邊，那詐騙廣告肯定是不實廣告嘛！公平會對於所有詐騙的相關廣告行為，之前有沒有開出任何的罰則出來？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於不實廣告都有處罰，幾乎每個月都有。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對詐騙的部分，尤其是有關於一些網路上詐騙的部分，因為詐騙現在是全民公憤，你把公平會在打詐這個部分做了哪些事情、哪些相關的處罰，到時候給本席完整的書面資料。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：接下來想問一下，主委，你對目前國內的減碳政策，包括碳費、碳權、碳中和，還有碳盤查等等是不是很了解？"],["李主任委員鎂：不敢說很了解，但是有去關注。"],["鄭委員正鈐：都有關注嘛！因為上個禮拜四環境部發布了企業碳中和指引，不知道你知不知道這個事情？"],["李主任委員鎂：我知道。"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在很多企業都宣稱自己的產品已達到碳中和，但是因為沒有相關的標章，消費者不知道他們是真正的真綠，還是漂綠，不曉得是真綠的狀態，還是說是虛假的狀態。針對環境部公布的企業碳中和指引，施次長在記者會中直接點名公平會，說消費者如果誤信不實廣告，可以向公平會提出檢舉，然後由公平會來認定。請問主委，公平會是不是準備好了，要接環境部丟出來的球？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想跨機關的合作是應該的，環境部的這個指引是讓消費者知道什麼叫做碳中和，碳排放跟碳移除加減之後要是零，不足的時候怎麼去消抵。現在就是消費者或者是一般企業，它泛稱符合碳中和，環境部的指引主要是要它揭露清楚，它是怎麼算的、排多少、減多少，如果有不實，我們可以處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那我想問一個最基本的問題，主委，因為跟碳有關的問題非常多，講幾個小時都講不完，國外碳權目前如何認定？主委，國外碳權因為碳中和裡面有一個部分一定會跟國外碳權有關，我們國外碳權目前如何認定？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，碳權有一套很專業的認定，這個我不是那麼了解。但是就公平會來講，如果沒有符合所宣稱的內容，那公平交易法第二十一條可以處理不實廣告。"],["鄭委員正鈐：公平交易法第二十一條這部分，我想先問碳權，我待會會再問到第二十一條的事情，因為像現在國際很多碳權的認證標準，像VCS、GS，目前我們國家都沒有認定，可是像世界很多大廠，包括Apple等等，這些他們都認定，我們怎麼去處理這個問題？"],["李主任委員鎂：就公平會來講，它宣稱得到什麼認證，不管是國際認可或不認可，我們會跟環境部徵詢意見，最主要是你說你得到哪裡的認證就必須是那裡的認證。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以說要跟環境部再去溝通這個部分？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，我目前可以接受這個狀態，因為目前這個還在進行當中。我為什麼會問這個問題？是因為我在上個會期曾經問過了一個電信業者的合併案，公平會去年通過了兩個附帶條件的合併案，包括了遠傳併亞太在去年7月20號，也包括了台灣大哥大併台灣之星在去年10月10號，都有附帶條件，我當時也問了這個問題，就說合併之後，服務品質如果嚴重下降，訊號、網速都不穩定，但上次主委你有回應我，說NCC本身有一個觀測小組，公平會會跟NCC保持溝通，我想問一下目前觀測的結果是怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這兩個結合案，在公平會我們會去關注它有沒有履行我們附的負擔，至於它的網路品質監控，我們也有就是NCC小組……"],["鄭委員正鈐：有沒有結果出來？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個可能會後還要再徵詢一下……"],["鄭委員正鈐：會後再出來？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我先舉一個例子給你，這是消費者直接公布出來的狀態，其實是台灣之星被併入台哥大之後，那麼消費者用了臺大計資中心的軟體，自己測出來的結果，其中下載的部分大概是在1Mbps到5Mbps的速度，上傳的部分在1Mbps到4Mbps左右的速度，這大家都在網路上直接公布出來都很清楚。我想請問一下公平會，主委，你知道我們正常手機4G的網路下載速度是多少嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：不是很清楚地掌握這些。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以上次我質詢之後，你顯然沒有去follow電信合併之後所產生的狀態，所以我今天在追問的時候，其實你沒有辦法回應出來，像正常的時候，40Mbps到70Mbps是正常的情況，不管臺灣再怎麼樣子，臺北到70Mbps是很正常的，臺灣到處至少20Mbps以上都是很基本的門檻，可是你看台哥大併台灣之星之後，只有1Mbps到5Mbps，這樣的狀態是不是有嚴重影響到消費者的權益，主委？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果通訊品質沒有達到應該有的品質，這是有消費者保護的問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以公平會這邊是不是應該要出手？針對這個事情，電信業者合併之後，沒有達到他們該提供出來的消費品質，公平會是不是應該要出手？"],["李主任委員鎂：公平會在當時准結合的時候有一些負擔，那這些負擔比較是從競爭秩序方面去談的，當然消費者的保護也是很重要的一環。"],["鄭委員正鈐：競爭秩序是一塊沒有問題，可是消費者保護一定是成立公平會很重要的目標，所以我希望針對這個部分，主委，你後續再去追蹤一下，再給本席一個很清楚的報告，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：好，我們會跟委員說明NCC的負擔跟我們的負擔差別在哪裡。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，然後針對消費者權益的部分，NCC顯然沒有很積極去處理這個事情，我們希望公平會出手，因為現在NCC其實也很亂，我想針對這個部分，再給本席一個完整的書面資料。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我接下來還要再問一個，你剛剛提到公平交易法第二十一條，我想問一下預售屋的不實廣告，你怎麼認定？"],["李主任委員鎂：有關預售屋的不實廣告，就是它廣告說它有什麼就要有什麼。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，所以基本上也是用公平交易法第二十一條，對於有虛偽不實或引人錯誤的表示或表徵，這是一個很重要的判斷標準，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是嘛，OK。第四十二條直接表示可以處五萬元到二千五百萬元以下的罰款，應該也是這樣的條件，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好。我想問一個具體的個案，主委，你看到右邊這樣的廣告時，它說已經預留華南銀行貸款額度、安心購屋、華南銀行信託保證，這樣的廣告你覺得會不會誤導民眾？我為什麼會提這個問題？因為在這一波央行打房之後，還持續地廣告。"],["李主任委員鎂：如果它說有預留華南銀行的額度，結果沒有，這個就是不實廣告，這個額度高低……"],["鄭委員正鈐：如果沒有的話就是不實廣告，所以我們如果看到它說預留華南銀行貸款額度，而去買了房子，到時候華南銀行沒有貸款給我們，這個建商就會出問題，是這個意思嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我的意思是說它廣告說什麼就要有什麼，所以我們處罰部分……"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，所以我說你看右邊這個廣告已經寫預留華南銀行貸款額度、安心購屋，這樣算不算是一個不實廣告、算不算有誤導民眾？"],["李主任委員鎂：需要去查，因為我們在看的是不實以致於誤導，如果沒有不實，就不會到誤導的問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那這樣算不算不實？主委，以你的專業，你這樣直接看算不算不實？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個要去瞭解是不是真的有華南銀行貸款，它是怎麼說的，這個是需要瞭解的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，是不是會誤導民眾來購屋？因為在央行這一波打房之後，現在出現很多的狀態是很多銀行都縮了銀根，都不願意再放款出來。"],["李主任委員鎂：會不會誤導要看每個不同消費者的認知。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。主委，這個部分，我想請主委這邊再跟內政部地政司跟行政院消保處去做一個完整一點的修正規範，針對……"],["李主任委員鎂：就這個部分，我們可以去瞭解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，因為我在想說，我們針對金融產品的不實廣告訂得非常清楚，可是公平交易委員會對於預售屋銷售行為案件的處理原則裡面沒有規範得那麼細緻，所以我們希望主委這邊跟內政部及消保處能夠好好去做溝通，把預售屋銷售行為的規範弄得更完整一點，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們一直都有做這樣的跨機關合作。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。最後一個部分就是針對健保、醫療相關的掛號費，它算不算是一個聯合行為？這一波很多都漲價了，在相近的時間都漲價了，算不算聯合行為？"],["李主任委員鎂：有漲價是一個客觀事實，我們會去看看他們橫向有沒有勾結談價，在今年3月公告……"],["鄭委員正鈐：他們肯定有開過會，公會裡面肯定有開過會，因為我看到在你的報告裡面針對很多公會的部分，包括土木公會，然後包括一些結構公會等等都有相關的部分，所以針對這個部分，希望主委這邊也多費點心，針對這個……"],["李主任委員鎂：我們一直都有注意。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對掛號費的聯合行為部分，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，之後再給本席一個很完整的書面說明。"],["李主任委員鎂：好的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝。"],["主席（鄭委員正鈐代）：我們現在請呂玉玲召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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佔了21%那水泥及其製品佔了大概10%"},{"start":567.628,"end":568.928,"text":"工程會每個月都會"},{"start":590.354,"end":607.903,"text":"有這個相關的匯報,針對建築材料,包括砂石、水泥、鋼琴的價格都有一定的掌控所以我們如果說因為徵收碳費,那麼這些相關製品如果說不合理的調帳,我想工程會會依職權來協調"},{"start":612.705,"end":613.246,"text":"李昆澤"},{"start":631.988,"end":632.248,"text":"李昆澤委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:02:55 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10:13:52","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154949","gazette":{"lineno":274,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（10時2分）麻煩陳主委，謝謝召委。"],["主席：請陳金德主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["李委員昆澤：主委早。剛才陳素月委員提到有關於鐵路立體化相關設施的建議，這對當地縣市政府來說都是一個重要的交通建設，陳主委也身兼政委，負責協調、督促交通部門相關的公共建設。對於宜蘭的臺鐵鐵路高架化，大概是從四城到羅東……"],["陳主任委員金德：冬山。"],["李委員昆澤：到冬山？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["李委員昆澤：相關的建設對宜蘭的發展是非常重要，當然陳主委做事一定是依據相關的法令以及程序，不管是相關的土地徵收、臺鐵公司的資產，或是有無機廠的設置等等，這當然也都有關係到相關的中央補助標準，以及地方相關的財務分級狀況。像現在彰化的臺鐵高架化也是彰化重要的交通建設，我們對於各縣市的補助必須符合相關的程序、法令及標準，讓當地的重大交通建設得以順利推行，請主委簡單說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：我想當中就是用地取得，我剛剛講用地取得將來是屬於鐵路公司的資產，所以這部分如果由中央負擔尚稱合適，而且過去也有其他縣市的鐵路高架用地取得是由中央來補助的，因此差別在這裡。剛才提到彰化的鐵路高架部分，如果單獨去計算用地取得多少費用，我想這部分由中央來負擔也算合理。"],["李委員昆澤：好，這個部分陳素月召委也應該會召集陳世凱部長以及陳主委一起來共同討論，對於全國相關的臺鐵立體化設施的補助標準必須要明確出來。"],["陳主任委員金德：必要的時候可以針對補助要點做修正。"],["李委員昆澤：好，補貼要點是一個最重要的基礎。淨零碳排也是一個國際重要的趨勢，國發會也在2050年定下一個目標，在2050年全臺灣的新建築、超過85%既有建築皆達到淨零的目標，這是國發會所定下的重要目標。我們看到內政部的研究報告，建築部門的總碳排量是占了37%、使用階段的碳排放量占了大概28%、興建及修繕拆除階段大概占了9%；工程會的統計，2023年工程採購大概是8,300億元，公共工程占全國的總碳排放量9.78%，大概是有2,700萬噸的二氧化碳排放。針對國發會2050年的碳排總目標，對於公共工程的碳排放量減量有沒有什麼具體的時程及規劃？請主委說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們的具體作法，第一個是在設計階段就能夠選用碳排比較少的建材，或者是不用長途運輸，而是就地取材，就地取材就沒有運輸的碳排。在設計裡面也考慮到綠覆率、植栽，這些比較生態的設計，增加碳匯來抵減、減少碳排。我們剛才所講的，不管建立碳排係數的資料庫、估算系統，能夠提供給將來的設計者在設計階段就考量碳排放的計算。另外，在整個工程預算裡面都會編列整個盤查的費用。"],["李委員昆澤：主委，營建類的碳排對於淨零的碳排目標其實影響是非常大的，我們剛看到公共工程部分的淨零政策大概是有兩類，第一個就是公共工程預估的碳排放是要強制填報，沒有填報就沒有辦法投標，是屬於強制性的；另外一種是財務類的採購，鼓勵業者自願填報。我們先來看看強制性的這一種，公共工程預估碳排放的強制填報部分，主委，我們每年大概要有3萬件左右的強制性填報，但是如何填報以及填報的數字沒有明確的標準，而且也沒有核對的機制，是不是這樣？請主委簡單說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：我想整個要達到淨零碳排的目標我們還在努力階段，所以由國發會主責，一切幾乎是從頭開始，我剛才講為什麼要蒐集排放係數、怎麼計算，讓填報者比較有所依據……"],["李委員昆澤：對，要有依據……"],["陳主任委員金德：等於我們是……"],["李委員昆澤：但目前是沒有依據、沒有標準，也沒有一種查核的機制。"],["陳主任委員金德：有的廠商是有，有的廠商比方生產水泥的、生產鋼筋的，或是生產一些……"],["李委員昆澤：所以這就有問題啦！有的廠商是誠實去申報，有的是高報、有的是低報，我們對於這樣的一個標準沒有辦法建立出來以及如何查核，這個請主委再做一個詳細的……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們加速精進。"],["李委員昆澤：好。另外，我們來看看國際的作法，按照聯合國的標準，國際的標準是有三種範疇，第一個是生產過程中的直接排放；第二個範疇是所使用的電力間接排放或能源間接排放；第三種是上下游間產生的間接排放。其實在聯合國或者是國際標準，第一類、第二類大概都有做合理的規範了，現在第三種，上下游間所產生的間接排放，國際也在未來要把它定為一個重要的標準跟範疇，而臺灣還沒有，這個部分我們要怎麼去符合聯合國的發展趨勢及標準規範？"],["陳主任委員金德：臺灣當然可以來參考國際的作法，不過我們就要求申報碳排總量或相關的要求，希望一開始是針對碳排大戶，我們不能說在送幾包水泥的過程當中，還去計算這個足跡，卡車排放了多少，我們是針對大戶、抓大，能夠來迅速降低這些碳排，才比較能夠達到我們淨零的目標。"],["李委員昆澤：好，這個等一下我會再跟主委討論。另外，我們財務類的自願填報，目前大概是1,100種左右的產品……"],["陳主任委員金德：這個就是碳排係數。"],["李委員昆澤：你們對於這種資料庫的建立有沒有相對的運用？來，說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，這個就是碳排係數，所以我們有的是從水利署來的，有的是從原廠商來的，那麼這些碳排係數就是單項的東西每單元的碳排放量相當當量，將來夠多的時候，每個機關在設計的時候，就可以運用這個來計算，我們再加上一個估算系統，就好像我們在計算整個建築、整個工程的成本費用一樣，輸入那個系統就可以估算整個碳排總量，所以這兩個工具要建置完成。"],["李委員昆澤：好，我們產品的類型還是要依照功能性以及相似性來進行分類、依照功能性及排放量來製作清單，更要對清單定期通知各部會來進行相關的公告。","最後一個問題，我請教主委，我們碳費開徵會不會影響建築的原料？8月29號環境部預告碳費的三子法，針對碳排放要進行收費，環境部大概是希望能夠在10月底之前碳費三子法都能夠順利通過，我們預計每噸的二氧化碳大概要收費300到500元，2030年會再調升到1,200元到1,800。依據統計，營造的原料成本約占房價的15%到35%，其中鋼鐵、金屬這些建築的組件大概占了21%，水泥及其製品占了大概10%。營造業公開地表示，建築成本會增加10%以上。工程會針對碳費開徵對工程原料價格的影響，有沒有進行試算？有沒有進行相關的規劃？來，說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會每個月都會有相關的會報，針對建築材料，包括砂石、水泥、鋼筋的價格都有一定的掌控，所以如果因為徵收碳費，這些相關製品有不合理的調漲，我想工程會會依職權來協調，希望不至於因為碳費的收取，有些原料做比較不合理的漲價。本來追求淨零，各相關產業就要提早做準備，除了收費之外，應該也有一些碳的交易，或者是工程類別、建築，它可以進行一些比方說種樹等等方式，做碳匯這樣的中和，我想可以各種方式來完成淨零的目標，但不至於讓整個工程的成本大幅上漲。"],["李委員昆澤：這點非常重要，請主委加強相關的督促。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員質詢。","接下來邀請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:09:53","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:02:32+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154948","委員名稱":"陳素月","duration":593,"start_time":"2024-09-30T09:52:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2bcbcd7c038b6163f67b6cd6776ddc26ae9b341893f7f7175fe305d6428d5d57a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.27096875,"end":6.629093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":6.730343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.730343750000001,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.46784375,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.58159375,"end":15.083468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.606593750000002,"end":20.399093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.73659375,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.85409375,"end":39.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.392218750000005,"end":37.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.62846875,"end":37.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.88971875,"end":60.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.73034375,"end":75.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.98534375,"end":92.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.50596875000001,"end":114.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1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請主席邀請陳金德主委請主委委員長"},{"start":14.052,"end":30.824,"text":"主委早安本席想先請教一下就是我們有注意到主委在26號的臨書就是發布了一個消息說這個宜蘭鐵路高架地方的配合款可望從105.72億下修為53.87億"},{"start":37.689,"end":37.829,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":60.916,"end":74.363,"text":"曾經焦灼了一大段的時間那我想請問一下就是說陳素月基於什麼樣的條件跟理由可以宣布說依然鐵路高價地方配合款可望下修為53.87億"},{"start":76.785,"end":91.161,"text":"謝謝委員因為醫院的鐵路高加泰申請審議的將近10年那這10年當中事實上他的鐵路立體化的相關經費分攤的審查要點有修正過"},{"start":92.623,"end":110.434,"text":"那我們後來去檢視啊因為每個地方的鐵路高架地方政府的分攤的確都很沉重那尤其是非六都的部分財務狀況都不是那麼好所以呢這個分攤是按照財務狀況分財務等級來分配比方說有75 25有86 14等等這個財務狀況的等級應該在之前的這個"},{"start":119.119,"end":136.791,"text":"總經費的分配就是中央和地方的負擔應該就已經有納入計算了嗎這次我們檢視就其中的用地取得鐵路高架因為他要現場的那個路線是高架所以在高架的同時旁邊要徵收土地做臨時軌就是要涉及土地徵收那這個土地徵收將來是屬於"},{"start":139.072,"end":150.778,"text":"國營的臺灣鐵路公司的所以才認為說既然將來的土地全屬是屬於中央的所以這個土地取得我們建立由中央來負擔另外第二個就是說調度廠就是機場"},{"start":154.139,"end":154.779,"text":"您這樣的想法有共識了嗎?"},{"start":177.388,"end":189.817,"text":"這個我們當中這兩三個月都有密集召開過會議那麼也檢視過這個審查要點那行政院也經過一步長時間的討論基本上這個原則針對財務狀況比較不好的縣市來做這樣的一個主張也是算合理的"},{"start":199.77,"end":215.627,"text":"好那就是如果說宜蘭鐵路高架就是可以從這個地方負擔可以從105.72億下修為53.87億那彰化的鐵路高架是不是也可以下修這個地方的負擔款"},{"start":216.087,"end":241.506,"text":"我會跟部長交通部長來討論所以我剛才講的那兩個項目一個是用地取得一個是管理機場有新設機場的話那個調度的那部分不要納入分攤那用地取得完全中央來負擔因為那是中央的財產就是鐵路公司的財產所以這部分會比較明確所以很難從數字來看我要看裡面的配置到底263.3億的"},{"start":247.285,"end":257.979,"text":"102.7億有多少是用地取得有多少是去分攤到剛才講的那個調度廠的費用若是這兩部分的話我會來跟交通部來協調"},{"start":259.528,"end":286.394,"text":"是 因為在彰化鐵路高架也是地方引頸期盼20多年 超過20年以上的一個重大建設因為在這個推動的過程曾經在就是自償率的這個計算的時候就焦灼了一段時間所以我們也希望就是說在這樣子的一個負擔 中央跟地方的一個負擔的比例我們希望就是全國一致的因為我們不希望說主委好像是宜蘭人"},{"start":292.577,"end":307.668,"text":"有這樣的這個建議,一定是有根據一些過去的案例,或者是說現在的狀況,過去也有案例用力取得有專政府負擔的,也有縣市有這樣的案例"},{"start":310.633,"end":328.386,"text":"請主委努力,因為您也是政委,交通部也是您在督導的業務,是這樣子嗎?是接下來本席來關心一下有關近年轉型的政策,因為剛剛從主委的業務報告裡面也有講到"},{"start":329.347,"end":344.854,"text":"這個近年轉型也是我們工程會五大的施政目標之一那我們來回顧一下就是說在2021年這個世界地球日4月22日的時候我們就宣布在2050年要近年排放這樣子一個目標"},{"start":346.014,"end":346.595,"text":"公共工程委員會公共工程檢探"},{"start":363.215,"end":390.496,"text":"在2022年8月31號發布了公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項那剛剛在你的業務報告裡面你有提到就是說未來的這個最有利標也會把這個就是減碳的這個部分的這個計算也納入評選的一個條件那我覺得說如果說要納入一個評選的條件就是要讓不管是業務單位或者是投票廠商都要有一個依循的一個準則對不對"},{"start":393.653,"end":416.484,"text":"我們看到就是說工程會的節能減碳目標就是說希望從減碳設計還有材料及工法等三大面向著手那藉由政府採購機制促使採購機關承攬廠商落實推動節能減碳然後逐步引導供應鏈邁向淨零排放那我想在這個過程我們工程會也訂立了三個階段的一個目標"},{"start":417.324,"end":444.098,"text":"那其實其中有兩個很重要的部分就是有關公共工程的減碳指引還有碳排資料庫數據的一個建立那有關這兩項目前就是我們知道工程會就是考量各類工程的特性不同有將公共工程分為八大類就是建築、下水道、水利、能源、橋樑、道路、隧道及軌道類"},{"start":444.978,"end":459.924,"text":"那就是要請這個相關的工程主管機關依工程的類型特性訂定這個公共工程檢探的指引那就主委你了解目前這八大類的相關主管機關的進度如何"},{"start":463.154,"end":490.916,"text":"我們這個指引的部分陸續在協調各部會來討論目前是水利的部分水利跟水保有完成其他還在討論當中預計是明年114年來完成這個指引這是一個做法之一另外比較重要的是那個碳排係數的資料庫的建立有那個每單項產品的碳排係數才能夠去計算碳排總量"},{"start":491.676,"end":496.34,"text":"主委指提到水利喔那這樣子是進度是不是或不差距太大了那你又說104年要要完成嗎完成這個碳排質疑我想這個會命緊有可能嗎現在已經113年"},{"start":517.557,"end":540.025,"text":"指引是OK啦那我們比較前端的那個碳排係數的建立需要收集很多資料就其他辦理招標的機關裡面現有的資料去收集或者是現有的廠商他的這個建築材料的一些碳排係數我們收集完了這個才能夠比較長遠的來進行碳排"},{"start":540.666,"end":560.627,"text":"是 那個碳排資料庫的一個規劃建制也是預計在114年年底完成嗎我這個請企劃處來我目前是1100筆啦所以那個要陸續再收集那我們希望能夠也是114年能夠能夠收集更廣泛的資料"},{"start":561.559,"end":587.33,"text":"是因為我們這些資料若沒有完成的話就是不管是業務單位或者是投標廠商他們都沒有一個依循的一個準則嘛是不是所以我們也希望這個工程會應該盡速完成就是減碳作業的參考指引跟減能減碳的減核機制嘛這樣才能夠掌握這個成效然後應該在這個過程當中你們要積極的去檢討相關的一個策略吧應該做一個滾動式的一個檢討好的好謝謝主委"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:52:39 - 10:02:32","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154948","gazette":{"lineno":239,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（9時52分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳金德主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["陳委員素月：主委早安。本席想先請教一下，我們有注意到主委在26號的臉書發布了一個消息，說宜蘭鐵路高架地方的配合款可望從105.72億下修為53.87億，有宣布了這樣的消息。你這樣子一發文之後，真的是一個震撼彈，因為我們彰化同樣也有鐵路高架的問題過去以來，在整個推動鐵路高架的過程當中，當然有很多的條件，才能夠讓這個計畫慢慢地往前推，其中配合款就曾經膠著了一大段的時間。我想請問一下，陳主委基於什麼樣的條件跟理由，可以宣布宜蘭鐵路高架地方配合款可望下修為53.87億？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員，因為宜蘭的鐵路高架已經申請審議了將近十年，在這十年當中，事實上，鐵路立體化經費分攤的審查要點有修正過，我們後來去檢視，因為每個地方的鐵路高架，地方政府的分攤的確都很沉重，尤其是非六都的部分，財務狀況都不是那麼好，所以這個分攤是按照財務狀況、財務等級來分配，比方說有75%、25%、80%、64%等等。"],["陳委員素月：這個財務狀況的等級應該在之前的總經費分配，也就是中央跟地方的負擔應該就已經有納入計算了嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：對，這次我們檢視的就是其中的用地取得，鐵路高架因為它要現場的路線做高架，所以在高架的同時，旁邊要徵收土地做臨時軌，這都要涉及土地徵收，而這個土地徵收將來是屬於國營臺灣鐵路公司的，所以才認為說既然將來的土地權屬是屬於中央的，所以這個土地取得我們建議由中央來負擔。","另外，第二個是調度場，也就是機廠，關於機廠，不管是將來的財產或者運作，也都是鐵路公司，所以這一部分就不需要按照原比率80%、64%來分攤。也因此這兩個我們認為由中央來分擔，針對財務狀況比較不好的縣市做這樣的建議。"],["陳委員素月：是，那您這樣的建議、這樣的想法有共識了嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們在當中這兩、三個月都有密集召開過會議，同時也檢視過審查要點，行政院也經過長時間的討論，基本上，這個原則（針對財務狀況比較不好的縣市來做這樣的主張）也是算合理的。"],["陳委員素月：好，如果宜蘭鐵路高架的地方負擔可以從105.72億下修為53.87億，那彰化的鐵路高架是不是也可以下修地方的負擔款？"],["陳主任委員金德：我會跟交通部長討論，我剛才講的那兩個項目，一個是用地取得，一個是關於機廠，如果有新設機廠的話，調度的那部分不要納入分攤，用地取得完全由中央來負擔，因為那是中央的財產，也就是鐵路公司的財產，這部分會比較明確，所以很難從數字來看，我要看裡面的配置，到底102.7億裡面有多少是用地取得、有多少是分攤到剛才所講的調度場的費用，如果是這兩部分的話，我會來跟交通部協調。"],["陳委員素月：因為彰化鐵路高架也是地方引頸企盼超過二十年以上的重大建設，在推動的過程中，曾經在自償率計算的時候就膠著了一段時間。針對中央跟地方的負擔比例，我們希望是全國一致的，我們不希望因為主委是宜蘭人，所以就好像獨厚宜蘭，應該不會吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：不會啦，有這樣的建議一定是根據一些過去的案例或者是現在的狀況，過去也有案例是用地取得由中央政府負擔的，也有縣市有這樣的案例。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝，那麼就請主委努力了，因為您也是政委，而交通部也是您在督導的業務，是這樣子嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：是。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。","接下來本席來關心一下有關淨零轉型的政策，因為剛剛主委的業務報告裡面有講到淨零轉型也是工程會五大施政目標之一。我們來回顧一下，在2021年4月22日世界地球日的時候，我們就宣布在2050年要達成淨零排放的目標，在2022年3月公布了淨零排放轉型的路徑，同年12月也公布了淨零轉型在2030年階段性的目標，所以最近兩年公共工程委員會也開始推動公共工程的減碳，在2022年8月31號發布了公共工程節能減碳檢核注意事項。剛剛在你的業務報告裡面也有提到，未來的最有利標也會把減碳部分的計算納入評選的條件，我覺得如果要納入評選的條件，就是要讓不管是業務單位或者是投標廠商都要有一個依循的準則，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["陳委員素月：我們看到工程會節能減碳的目標是希望從減碳設計、材料及工法等三大面向著手，藉由政府採購機制，促使採購機關、承攬廠商落實推動節能減碳，然後逐步引導供應鏈邁向淨零排放。在這個過程，工程會也訂立了三個階段的目標，其實其中有兩個很重要的部分，就是有關公共工程的減碳指引以及碳排資料庫數據的建立。有關這兩項，我們知道目前工程會考量各類工程的特性不同，將公共工程分為八大類，就是建築、下水道、水利、能源、橋梁、道路、隧道及軌道類，也就是要請相關的工程主管機關依工程的類型、特性訂定公共工程減碳的指引。就主委的了解，目前這八大類相關主管機關的進度如何？"],["陳主任委員金德：指引的部分，我們陸續在協調各部會來討論，目前是水利跟水保有完成，其他還在討論當中，預計是明年（114年）完成這個指引，這是一個作法之一。另外，比較重要的是碳排係數資料庫的建立，有每單項產品的碳排係數才能夠去計算碳排總量，所以我們另外還要建立一個估算系統，等這些都建置完成，我想主辦機關來計算碳排就比較容易。"],["陳委員素月：剛剛我們提到八大類，而主委只提到水利，這樣子進度是不是差距太大了？你又說114年要完成嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：完成碳排指引，我們會密集跟各部會來討論。"],["陳委員素月：這樣子有可能嗎？現在已經113年下半年了。"],["陳主任委員金德：指引是OK啦！我們比較前端的碳排係數建立是需要蒐集很多資料，就其他辦理招標機關裡面現有的資料去蒐集，或者是現有廠商的建築材料的一些碳排係數，我們蒐集完了才能夠比較長遠地來進行碳排。"],["陳委員素月：是，碳排資料庫的規劃、建置也是預計在114年底完成嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個我請企劃處來……"],["陳委員素月：好，請企劃處回復一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們目前是1,100筆，所以要陸續再蒐集，我們希望也是114年能夠蒐集更廣泛的資料。"],["陳委員素月：是，因為這些資料如果沒有完成的話，不管是業務單位或者是投標廠商都沒有一個依循的準則，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：是的、是的。"],["陳委員素月：所以我們也希望工程會應該儘速完成減碳作業的參考指引跟節能減碳的檢核機制，這樣才能夠掌握成效，然後應該也在這個過程當中，你們要積極地去檢討相關的策略，應該做滾動式的檢討。"],["陳主任委員金德：好的。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝主委。"],["主席（陳委員素月）：接下來邀請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:10:30","end_time":"2024-09-30T09:52:29+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154947","委員名稱":"林沛祥","duration":630,"start_time":"2024-09-30T09:41:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b89abcf335a87bd7c7b6cd6776ddc26ae9b341893f7f7175fa7b53669de06e42e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.03846875,"end":7.152218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.67534375,"end":8.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.974718750000001,"end":10.020968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.42096875,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.61909375,"end":17.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.53034375,"end":35.502218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":36.43034375,"end":41.070968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.44221875,"end":67.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":41.77971875,"end":41.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":41.813468750000006,"end":41.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.13846875,"end":97.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.63596875,"end":115.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.84409375000001,"end":128.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.58471875,"end":133.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":133.98471875,"end":137.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":138.37221875,"end":146.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.65346875,"end":152.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","star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":"ROT是等於是重建重建然後這個操作然後再轉移嘛那OT是操作轉移嘛那這個我提報告委員這個業務已經是財政部的業務了那我只是問清楚合約上面以前是工程會的業務現在出差的部分是財政部的業務我知道可是您還是可以解說是OT換ROT需不需要重新招標"},{"start":374.062,"end":398.124,"text":"我想我請負責合約組密來回答我只想知道是不是需要重新招標公務員報告就是招標的時候基本上就有權利義務關係所以這個OT或ROT在招標的時候會說明清楚所以說如果是一個OT案直接換成ROT說有OT的精神這樣子合法嗎"},{"start":399.223,"end":417.962,"text":"報告委員這一位涉及到個案的7月變更的內容和他的容許性所以這個可能要個案來看所以說這樣子來講的話如果一個案子假設說我今天有個優良廠商我跟你圈的是OT合約然後慢慢就直接找另外一個協力廠商然後變成ROT這樣在法律上是允許的囉"},{"start":419.315,"end":443.831,"text":"我想再跟委員報告 促參的部分主管機關是財政部所以不管OT ROT BOT全部是財政部如果說財政部說它是違法的呢這個是財政部做解釋那工程會呢針對是政府採購 如果說它有違反政府採購我們工程會會去了解我只是有一個問題想說他不方便去幫財政部去做相關的這個促參法的相關的解釋"},{"start":444.671,"end":450.142,"text":"我為什麼把這件事特意邀他出來談的原因是說因為不管是您現在的講法跟"},{"start":451.534,"end":474.498,"text":"當初吳哲成吳前主委的講法都是經過講起來我個程度上你說是個案個案不過如果以通案來講是不是應該要經過一個重新招標的簡訊呢我可能要檢視一下他的原始合約啦原始合約如果有雙方合意說OT期限到了之後能夠繼續做重建的話我想還是根據合約如果OT還沒到就直接做ROT呢我們還是看原來合約來看"},{"start":474.898,"end":475.058,"text":"東岸廣場案"},{"start":497.523,"end":498.084,"text":"資訊委員會主委今天負責人在場嗎?"},{"start":520.115,"end":535.42,"text":"針對東岸基隆市東岸廣場的案子,OT直接抓AUT,請問這樣是合法的嗎?而且在OT的合約還沒到之前,請問這樣是合法的嗎?先跟委員報告,就是說原則上因為我們是處理政府採購的契約"},{"start":537.06,"end":541.042,"text":"所以這樣講起來說公共工程委員會對這個案子完全無法負責完全無法介入就對了"},{"start":560.633,"end":572.715,"text":"如果說是請我們從政府採購企業的角度來提供一些意見那我想我們是可以提供這樣的一個所以我問OT如果要換ROT是不是要經過重新招標"},{"start":574.451,"end":600.005,"text":"通案來講OT如果說他在OT如果說在期限他要變成ROT的話是不是需要公開是不是需要重新招標因為他不是走政府採購所以他沒有所謂公開不公開招標的問題因為他看起來有可能是走促餐那促餐因為他根本就沒有走政府採購的程序那OT的話ROT如果說就是不需要重新再招標就可以直接這樣做囉您現在這句話我隨時會議上面都有記錄喔"},{"start":603.447,"end":603.967,"text":"好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:41:59 - 09:52:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154947","gazette":{"lineno":164,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時42分）好，謝謝主席。有請陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早！"],["林委員沛祥：主委早！您是公共工程委員會的主委，所以有關公共工程的所有合約由您來解釋，應該是最好的人選，有一句話說：政府採購法的精神是維護公共利益以及公平合理。請問您是否認同？"],["陳主任委員金德：我想這個是政府採購法開宗明義的主旨。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝主委。從我們調的資料來看，立法院預算中心針對政府媒體宣傳費的報告指出，各機關媒宣費連續三年得標廠商採限制性招標居多，而且得標廠商集中度甚高，以至於政府的政策及宣傳業務未能擴及社會大眾，必須檢討適妥性。我們都知道，採用限制性招標跟選擇性招標，會讓大多數的廠商連進場的資格都無法取得，更不用說比較了，所以限制性招標也好，選擇性招標也好，雖然比較方便，讓機關可以不需要經過冗長的公開上網及標期規定，可以直接聯絡適合的廠商來進行報價，但「適合」是主觀的，這其實對其他想要競標的廠商而言是很不公平的方式，而且更直接的是，如果機關的公務員有圖利特定廠商的情形，更容易借不公開的漏洞，只找同一批廠商來採購，形成堅強的共犯結構，雖然政府採購法第二十二條明令可以有不用公開招標方式的例外，讓機關可以選擇適當的廠商進行議價，這是依法有據，但請問主委，您認為這樣符合政府採購法的精神嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：政府採購法裡面的招標方式有很多種，包括限制性招標，所以每個機關採取他們要的招標方式，我們都尊重機關的意見，而且這都是合法的。"],["林委員沛祥：所以您有沒有提出什麼具體的改善方向？"],["陳主任委員金德：如果有個案問題，比方有違失，我們才會去了解，如果只是單純的招標方式採限制性招標，我想這個在機關裡面主管決定就可以了。"],["林委員沛祥：請問主委，公共工程委員會的媒體宣傳費用，去年是多少？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們很少啦！220萬。"],["林委員沛祥：今年呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：也是220萬。"],["林委員沛祥：請問得標廠商是哪裡呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：這我可能要請相關單位來說明，請主秘說明。"],["羅主任秘書天健：報告委員，去年是太乙廣告公司，主要是在辦理金質獎，今年是一家比較新創的媒體公司，我們就是拍金質獎的宣傳影片，還有兩性平權的宣傳影片。"],["林委員沛祥：有KPI嗎？你們內部一定有KPI，因為我曾經在港務公司待過，我知道內部有KPI。"],["羅主任秘書天健：是，跟委員報告，這個部分我們訂有點閱率這些……"],["林委員沛祥：點閱率？220萬，請問影片的點閱率大概多少？"],["羅主任秘書天健：影片的點閱率，抱歉，我們手上的資料是總計的，曝光數是1,300萬次，點閱率是18萬次。"],["林委員沛祥：幾支影片？"],["羅主任秘書天健：我們總共有一部5分鐘的影片，然後還有濃縮版的30秒的影片……"],["林委員沛祥：所以幾支？"],["羅主任秘書天健：應該是4支。"],["林委員沛祥：4支全部加起來多少？1萬8,000次？"],["羅主任秘書天健：是18萬次。"],["林委員沛祥：18萬次，這就是KPI？分享次數幾次？"],["黃處長順昌：向委員報告，點擊有9萬2,296次，我們有一個曝光，一個是曝光，另外一個是點擊……"],["林委員沛祥：我知道，我知道，我自己都在關心自己的粉絲專頁，所以我知道。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個是金質獎的內容，包括一些相關工程達人的影片，比較單純屬於工程會的政策，是工程會的業務範圍內的一些影片……"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝主委，至少你們這次的媒體宣傳業務費沒有增加，未來我們會針對點閱次數繼續來觀察，基本上，18萬次其實沒有很多，如果說本席隨隨便便拍一支短影片都可以到54萬次的話，那18萬次其實是很少的，我期待這個可以再加強。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，我們來改進，不過這是相當工程方面的影片。"],["林委員沛祥：還有另外一個問題，我還是回到合約部分，除了限制性招標和所謂的選擇性招標之外，我想請問一下，OT跟ROT不同在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員金德：ROT等於是重建，然後操作，然後再轉移，而OT是操作、轉移……"],["林委員沛祥：那OT……"],["陳主任委員金德：不過跟委員報告，這個業務已經是財政部的業務了。"],["林委員沛祥：好，我只是問清楚合約上……"],["陳主任委員金德：這以前是工程會業務，現在促參的部分是財政部的業務。"],["林委員沛祥：我知道，可是您還是可以解說，OT換ROT需不需要重新招標？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請負責合約的主秘來……"],["林委員沛祥：不是，我只是想知道是不是需要重新招標？"],["羅主任秘書天健：跟委員報告，在招標的時候，基本上會有權利義務關係，所以OT或ROT在招標的時候會說明清楚。"],["林委員沛祥：所以如果一個OT案直接換成ROT，但說有OT精神，這樣合法嗎？"],["羅主任秘書天健：報告委員，因為這涉及到個案契約變更的內容和容許性，所以可能要個案來看。"],["林委員沛祥：這樣講的話，假設今天有一個案子是一個優良廠商來跟你簽OT合約，然後貿貿然直接找另外一個協力廠商變成ROT，這樣在法律上是允許的囉？"],["陳主任委員金德：再跟委員報告，促參的部分主管機關是財政部，所以不管OT、ROT、BOT，全部是由財政部主管機關來解釋……"],["林委員沛祥：如果財政部說它是違法的呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個由財政部解釋，工程會針對的是政府採購，如果他有違反政府採購，工程會會去了解。"],["林委員沛祥：我只是要問清楚……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們不方便幫財政部去做促參法相關的解釋。"],["林委員沛祥：我為什麼把這件事特地拿出來談的原因，是因為不管是您現在的講法，還是當初吳澤成吳前主委的講法，講起來都說某個程度上是個案、個案，不過如果以通案來講，是不是應該要經過一個重新招標的程序？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們可能要檢視一下他的原始合約，原始合約如果有雙方合意說OT期限到了之後，能夠繼續做重建的話，我想還是要根據合約來看。"],["林委員沛祥：如果OT還沒到就直接做ROT呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們還是以原來合約來看。"],["林委員沛祥：如果原來合約上面沒有寫這一塊呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：看甲方跟乙方合約裡面是怎麼訂定的，我們現在沒有看到合約內容，無從判斷。"],["林委員沛祥：所以如果合約內容出來，裡面並沒有任何地方說有第三方可以介入的話，基本上……"],["陳主任委員金德：如果委員有具體的合約……"],["林委員沛祥：我有具體的合約。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們可以幫你看一下。"],["林委員沛祥：好，就某個程度上面來講，您說東岸廣場的案子，基本上來講，如果甲、乙雙方當初合約沒有寫，而有一個第三方廠商直接介入的話……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們有一個諮詢委員會會針對合約的履約情形做諮詢，我想我們可以做到這一點。"],["林委員沛祥：諮詢委員會的負責人今天在場嗎？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：委員你好。"],["林委員沛祥：針對基隆市東岸廣場的案子OT直接轉ROT，請問這樣是合法的嗎？而且在OT的合約還沒到之前，請問這樣是合法的嗎？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：先跟委員報告，原則上我們是處理政府採購的契約，因為這個案子它不是走政府採購法，所以原則上它不會直接對應到政府採購契約。如果以政府採購契約的原則來看的話，就誠如剛剛主委所講的，可能要看合約裡面……"],["林委員沛祥：所以這樣講起來公共工程委員會對這個案子完全無法負責、完全無法介入就對了？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：如果是請我們從政府採購契約的角度來提供一些意見，我想我們是可以提供這樣的意見。"],["林委員沛祥：所以我問OT如果要換成ROT，是不是要經過重新招標？通案來講，如果OT在期限內要變成ROT的話，是不是需要重新招標？我只是要你回答Yes or No。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：因為它不是走政府採購，所以它沒有所謂公開、不公開招標的問題，它看起來有可能是走促參，那促參的話，它根本就沒有走政府採購的程序。"],["林委員沛祥：OT換ROT不需要重新再招標就可以直接這樣做了？你現在這句話在會議上面都有紀錄，OT不用經過任何程序就可以直接換成ROT是嗎？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：因為我們的政府採購契約裡面目前沒有這個類別，所以我不敢跟委員講到底可以或不可以，因為我們目前政府採購契約裡面並沒有處理這方面的問題。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席（許委員智傑代）：謝謝，我們現在請陳素月召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:12:27","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:15:08+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154946","委員名稱":"林倩綺","duration":747,"start_time":"2024-09-30T10:02:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b43a98ce33e4c55b7d315587f90474d389b341893f7f7175f33a4a5ff57c3d22b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":11.759093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.117218750000003,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.167843750000003,"end":15.184718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.184718750000002,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.20159375,"end":15.235343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.235343750000002,"end":15.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.26909375,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.302843750000001,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.758468750000002,"end":37.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.134718750000005,"end":69.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.80909375,"end":69.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.82596875,"end":69.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.60221875,"end":75.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.18784375,"end":77.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.68971875000001,"end":78.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.09471875,"end":92.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.78659375000001,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.45659375000001,"end":84.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.93721875,"end":87.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.77596875,"end":93.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.31159375,"end":110.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.28034375,"end":105.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.49471875,"end":114.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.42221875000001,"end":121.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.66596875,"end":139.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.73596875,"end":132.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.87846875,"end":142.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.24096875,"end":155.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.23221875000002,"end":144.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.81846875000002,"end":146.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.05721875,"end":158.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.32284375,"end":159.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.41971875000002,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.38159375,"end":160.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.90034375000002,"end":160.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.91721875000002,"end":194.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.19034375,"end":284.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.85909375,"end":263.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.16346875,"end":289.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.42471875,"end":290.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.09096875,"end":292.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.20034375,"end":295.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.61784375,"end":296.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.01846875,"end":301.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.72659375,"end":309.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.70096875,"end":302.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.18534375,"end":314.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.92346875000004,"end":311.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.15096875,"end":313.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.66971875,"end":322.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.12846875,"end":328.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.77346875,"end":324.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.41471875,"end":326.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.37659375000004,"end":326.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.92909375,"end":337.42971875},{"speaker":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報告委員那我們的徵求的方向都是召開諮詢委員會那我們今年的議題是族群關係也就是說原住民跟其他的族群之間的關聯是我們今年的口岸重點那也順便回答一下剛剛委員關心的個別型那以前都沒有"},{"start":175.834,"end":194.29,"text":"在委員的建議底下我們今年真的把它編入但是我們是希望說用個別型然後希望可以未來是成為整合型也就是說我們接受個別委員的提案但是我們希望他可以提案說未來幾年他可以成為一個整合型的團隊我們也是用這樣的方式在促進學界之間的一個提升能量謝謝"},{"start":196.572,"end":212.021,"text":"謝謝說明因為剛才你們談到今年這個議題所以對議題的這個部分我有很深的感觸想要跟這個主委這邊來討論也就是您講的族群關係其實跟國科會我後面講的議題都有一些接近只是正好你們又講到今年的主題是族群關係"},{"start":214.582,"end":242.222,"text":"主委因為國科會其實它有一大塊那尤其是今天我們談的這個永續跟這個政策那我是不是可以建議就在原住民的這個研究方面是不是可以給我們多一點機會不要把我們常常鎖在博物館的這個想像裡面所以談到原住民我們就只有族群但是其實像你們的很多的議題其實原住民在這裡面都有一些佔比跟其實可以學習跟研究的東西那我們待會再慢慢來討論好不好"},{"start":243.944,"end":262.104,"text":"這個其實在原住民族研究的這個部分我剛才講的是議題所以這個議題的部分我希望能夠跟會內來更細緻更往前討論一下不要把我們都鎖在某一些認同或者是族群那其實因為有一個大方向大家會往這邊走"},{"start":263.005,"end":284.591,"text":"所以今天談的永續其實好多項都跟原住民有關所以接下來我簡單談一下第一個是剛才我說比例上我待會還會再談目前會內當然有一些經費的比例但是整體來講就行政院我看整體比例其實是少於一的那不知道主委是不知道原住民在全台的這個比例大概有多少"},{"start":286.195,"end":314.478,"text":"全台原住民的總數大概...抱歉,數字我不清楚大約...那要不然會內再去查一下就4到5%是不是?如果有您講的4到5%那可能比例又更低了,對不對?如果我們再...報告委員我們科技預算其實也有編在我們的原住民委員會裡面也有對,所以我就說整體來講我這邊solo了一次那發現整體好像還是比"},{"start":315.438,"end":339.211,"text":"剛剛蘇處長也有提到說我們特別為了原住民的研究也編了這個預算就是專案的部分你們大概編了5800萬如果我這邊沒有看錯的話你們回去再整理我們再來確認一下好不好至於議題的部分我想我們請人文處也到時候也跟林委員也討論一下是不是議題恰當對啦議題方向可以再多給我們一些開放性好不好"},{"start":339.691,"end":339.711,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":355.311,"end":378.056,"text":"所以我為什麼會對那個議題想要跟大家再交流一下也就是族群關係大家很容易想像社會人文但是好像我們在其他的處裡面都感覺會缺席所以只是提醒這一點所以在研究的這個你們的機制上因為機制要討論大概很多細節所以你們有一個原住民族社會永續科技計畫那我提醒幾點"},{"start":378.996,"end":403.58,"text":"第1個就是說平台的建立要以我們的需求原住民的需求還有原住民的未來性所以大家現在對我們的想像都是在過去好像我們從來都不會從土人不好意思我是開玩笑我們常常都是這樣子的刻板印象那在科技研究上我很期待這一點是不是可以讓我們在現在的社會跟未來的發展都有可能另外一個資源配比還有原住民族的受益狀況這個可能在你們的學者"},{"start":406.841,"end":435.023,"text":"原住民的比例跟非原住民的比例還有原住民的那個議題其實整體都是連結在一體的然後第三個就參與程度的自主性這個其實從過去我們很多研究都可以看得出來可能學者研究然後原住民這個我在民間一直聽到有這樣子的聲音也就是大家都是被動的然後在這裡面可能有很多被動的被研究但是研究的這個主體性可能還要再更強化一點"},{"start":436.239,"end":458.833,"text":"謝謝委員 這個我們相當認同對對對 但是我可能這個部分未來會再更強力的監督跟溝通交流好不好好 謝謝那另外你們在談永續科研的這個部分藍炭跟原住民傳統領域我這邊很快的提供幾點那請你們在這個部分也可以置放進去然後稍微更多做一點著力第一個就是共管模式的可能性還有傳統知識在你們藍炭的這個過程當中因為藍炭很深的一個議題"},{"start":461.434,"end":481.371,"text":"我就是提醒這個部分我們不想缺席還有我們的文化跟生態的這個融合好那接下來就談你們國科會在這個原住民的這個補助大概5800萬那我剛才講少於1應該整個行政院大概比例上是少於1%的所以我們如果以所謂的科技的量化指標那我們當然在這裡面先這樣子做一個比較"},{"start":482.171,"end":506.057,"text":"所以在原住民的經費配比如果我們在這幾年的執行上我們有這樣子的量能是不是也有機會來做一個提高是 如果我們相關的學者進來研究這些相關議題我們的通過率國科會有一個平均大約在60%左右如果研究的人數增加我們經費一定會提高的"},{"start":507.278,"end":533.418,"text":"謝謝主委第二點其實我覺得這是一個普遍的問題雖然我針對原住民族學術人才的培育與支持來問但是接下來其實有一個跟主委也很有關然後跟剛才也有一些委員的這個質詢也有關就是整個人才研究人才的培育跟未來的出路那這不僅是原住民我在這邊也特別注意原住民這個區塊那我們往下一頁看我們就會看到那個也是在今年暑假的一個調查那個報紙的調查"},{"start":536.5,"end":561.48,"text":"其實在先前有人訪問您的時候那我先回到前一張我想請教一下那個我非常受到主委的這句話的感動我們希望有本土培育出來的諾貝爾獎那我是真的很有感受因為以前在我的領域我是也是很想拿世界大獎的可是到我畢業的時候我連世界大賽的那個資訊都沒有所以主委這個部分你怎麼去成就我們如何培育出本土的這個諾貝爾獎得主"},{"start":563.328,"end":584.694,"text":"我們就是期望不要以行政的力量干預我們的學術讓它沒有天花板所以只要是能夠對於增進人類福祉社會貢獻的話這種研究我們一定都會努力來支持希望說我們的學界的研究不要只以論文發表為導向"},{"start":586.414,"end":587.997,"text":"而是強調社會人類的貢獻這樣才有辦法產生比較大的影響力讓台灣在全世界被看到"},{"start":598.085,"end":620.176,"text":"對,那您講的這個論文的這個部分或許有所謂數量跟它真正貢獻這個區塊的一個討論那我們都知道質非常的難討論但是量或許是大家現在看得到的那或許主委就必須要在這裡面再做一些這個一個適度的平衡,對"},{"start":621.076,"end":643.903,"text":"不是只有評審人,我想您可能要做很大的努力才能夠調整大家目前對這樣一個量的迷思所以這其實有些東西是結合在一起第一個是這則報告在講到我們這個科研人才的這個成效當然它的重點是在未來研究人才何去何從我覺得這是會裡面可不可以幫這些研究人才想一想"},{"start":644.443,"end":644.463,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":663.289,"end":681.347,"text":"我們在計畫的補助上跟計畫的未來性或許可以一起來考量這個是這則報道我給一點建議我們不是說報道他可能有他的想法但是我看到是一個系統性的問題所以是不是國科會在這裡面可以有更多一點的角色"},{"start":682.828,"end":709.654,"text":"最後一個提醒就是說當然剛才主委您講到其實所謂論文那論文我們講到量跟質但是量就是大家現在的迷思那這個量呢我們經常都是我們有很多的量但是我們被引用的數量其實是少的也就這個可能在貢獻度上就會有一些影響那有一個報導台灣在這個量的部分大概是居全球20幾名可是我們在被引用的數量是全球倒數的"},{"start":710.474,"end":738.046,"text":"但是荷蘭在量的部分也是20幾名可是在被引用的數據上也是20幾名這相對是平衡的所以我很期待未來能夠聽到主委談論一下我們如何打破這個量的迷思可是值又怎麼樣被評價我想這個是我一個提醒未來我也會針對我這幾個方向再跟主委還有會裡面來更進一步的探討"},{"start":738.939,"end":739.3,"text":"主委請回,謝謝林倩綺委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:02:41 - 10:15:08","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"154946","gazette":{"lineno":413,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時2分）主席、在這邊的同仁，大家好。先請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：主委好。你來了大概快半年，我想先前你對於國科會已經有一些了解，只是在不同的角色，我想你應該有不同的體悟以及對於業務有更深一層的看法。您到的時候我們正好也有機會交流，您當時也表現出很強的善意，我覺得在學術這個部分我們應該也是可以來交談的，是不是可以請教一下主委，在交談過程當中我們有交換一些意見，你有一個允諾啦，我想說非常地豪爽！這是我們以前在學界碰到的狀況，結果您一下子就允諾了，那我只想請教一下，當時你允諾的這個部分目前的進度是如何？"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員交代的事情我們應該都有執行。對不起，因為我……"],["林委員倩綺：要不要提醒一下您？我們談的大概有一、兩個重點，其中一個因為我本身是原住民，所以我都會特別關心原住民的部分，當時我跟您反映過，會裡面其實有原住民相關的研究，但是型態可能比較受限、都是整合型，在個別型計畫上您也很豪爽地答應給大家一些空間，所以我想問一下目前的進度大概是如何？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們已經編入計畫、執行方案裡面，所以這個議題我們馬上就會實施了。"],["林委員倩綺：好的。那我想請教一下，今年是113年，你們應該去年已經發函了嘛，通常都是你們發函大家才知道可以申請的方向，你們這個是明年編入、後年才會執行？還是你們其實在計畫的內容、項目上就可以……"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該今年的call案，就是年底前call案就會有了。"],["林委員倩綺：我想應該是可以啦？"],["吳主任委員誠文：今年就會有。"],["林委員倩綺：如果說經費上沒有問題的話。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是！沒問題。"],["林委員倩綺：我想請教一下，過往你們在整合的平臺上是怎麼樣確定方向跟方式呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有關原住民議題？"],["林委員倩綺：對！"],["吳主任委員誠文：那我請我們人文處。"],["林委員倩綺：請教一下，謝謝。"],["蘇處長碩斌：報告委員，我們徵求的方向都是召開諮詢委員會，我們今年的議題是族群關係，也就是原住民跟其他族群之間的關聯是我們今年的call案重點；也順便回答一下剛剛委員關心的個別型，以前都沒有，那在委員的建議之下，我們今年真的把它編入，但是我們希望用個別型然後未來可以成為整合型，也就是說，我們接受個別委員的提案，但是我們希望他可以提案說，未來幾年他可以成為一個整合型的團隊，我們也是用這樣的方式在促進學界之間的提升能量，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝說明。剛才你們談到今年這個議題，針對議題這個部分我有很深的感觸想要跟主委討論，也就是您講的族群關係，我後面講的議題都有一些接近，只是正好你們有講到今年的主題是族群關係。主委，國科會其實有一大塊尤其是今天我們談的永續跟政策，我建議在原住民的研究方面是不是可以給我們多一點機會、不要把我們常常鎖在博物館的想像裡面？所以談到原住民我們就只有族群，但是像你們有很多的議題，其實原住民在這裡面都有一些占比以及可以學習、研究的東西，我們待會再慢慢來討論，好不好？在原住民族研究的這個部分，我剛才講的是議題，針對議題部分我希望能夠跟會內更細緻、更往前討論一下，不要把我們都鎖在某一些認同或者是族群，有一個大方向大家會往這邊走，今天談的永續其實有好多項都跟原住民有關。","接下來我簡單談一下，第一個，剛才我說比例上我待會還會再談，會內當然有一些經費的比例，但是整體來講，我看行政院整體比例其實是少於1的，主委知不知道原住民在全臺的比例大概有多少？全臺原住民的總數大概占全國……"],["吳主任委員誠文：抱歉，數字我不清楚。"],["林委員倩綺：大約……要不要會內再去查一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：4到5%是不是？"],["林委員倩綺：你講的4到5%可能比例又更低了，對不對？如果我們在……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們科技預算其實也有編在原住民族委員會裡面，但是我們在國科會的人文處……"],["林委員倩綺：對，所以整體來講，我這邊蒐羅了一次，發現整體好像還是比……"],["吳主任委員誠文：剛剛蘇處長也有提到，我們特別為了原住民的研究也編了這個預算，就是專案……"],["林委員倩綺：是！我們大概編了5,800萬，如果我這邊沒有看錯的話，回去整理後我們再來確認一下，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：至於議題的部分，我請人文處到時候也跟林委員討論一下議題方向是不是恰當。"],["林委員倩綺：對，議題方向可以再多給我們一些開放性，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來我們很快地談一下，我們占了一些時間，所以我很快地談一下，在原住民族社會永續科技計畫裡面，各位不要忘記了，有關你們所想像的科技跟原住民可以參與的科技，其實我們不想在這裡面缺席，所以我為什麼會就那個議題想要跟大家再交流一下，也就是族群關係，大家很容易想像成社會人文，但是我們在其他的處裡面感覺會缺席，所以我只是提醒這一點。","在你們的機制上──要討論機制大概會有很多細節，你們有一個原住民族社會永續科技計畫，我提醒幾點，第一個，平臺的建立要以我們的需求、原住民的需求，還有原住民的未來性，所以大家現在對我們的想像都是在過去，好像我們從來都不會從土人……不好意思，我是開玩笑！我們常常都是這樣子的刻板印象，在科技研究上，我很期待這一點是不是可以讓我們在現在的社會跟未來的發展都有可能；另外一個，資源配比還有原住民族的受益狀況，這個可能在你們學者的原住民比例跟非原住民比例、還有原住民的議題等等，其實整體都是連結在一起的；第三個就是參與程度的自主性，這個其實從過去很多研究都可以看得出來，可能是學者研究原住民，這個我在民間一直聽到有這樣子的聲音，也就是大家都是被動的，然後在這裡面可能有很多被動地被研究，但是研究的主體性可能還要再更強化一點。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，這個我們相當認同。"],["林委員倩綺：對！但是這個部分我可能未來會再更強力地監督跟溝通交流，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：另外你們在談永續科研這個部分，藍碳跟原住民傳統領域，我這邊很快提供幾點，你們在這個部分也可以置放進去，然後稍微更多做一點著力，第一個就是共管模式的可能性，還有傳統知識在你們藍碳的過程當中，因為藍碳是很深的一個議題，我就是提醒這個部分我們不想缺席，還有我們的文化跟生態的融合。","接下來就談國科會在原住民的補助大概5,800萬，我剛才講少於1，整個行政院比例上大概是少於1%，所以我們如果以所謂的科技量化指標，我們在這裡面，也先這樣子做一個比較，所以在原住民的經費配比上，如果我們在這幾年的執行上有這樣子的量能，是不是也有機會來提高？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，如果我們相關的學者進來研究這些相關議題，我們的通過率、國科會有一個平均大約在60%左右，如果研究的人數增加，我們經費一定會提高的。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝主委。第二點，其實我覺得這是一個普遍的問題，雖然我是針對原住民族學術人才的培育與支持來問，但是接下來其實有一個跟主委很有關，跟剛才有一些委員的質詢也有關，就是整個研究人才的培育跟未來的出路，這不僅是原住民，我在這邊也特別注意原住民這個區塊，我們往下一頁看就會看到，這是在今年暑假一個報紙的調查，其實先前有人訪問您的時候，我非常受到主委這句話的感動，我們希望有本土培育出來的諾貝爾獎，我是真的很有感受，因為以前在我的領域，我也是很想拿世界大獎的，可是到我畢業的時候，連世界大賽的資訊都沒有，所以主委這個部分你要怎麼去成就？我們如何培育出本土的諾貝爾獎得主？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們期望不要以行政的力量干預我們的學術，讓它沒有天花板，所以只要是能夠增進人類福祉、社會貢獻的話，這種研究我們一定都會努力來支持。希望我們學界的研究不要只以論文發表為導向，而是要強調……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝主委，我對這點感同身受。"],["吳主任委員誠文：而是要強調社會、人類的貢獻，這樣才有辦法產生比較大的影響力，讓臺灣在全世界被看到。"],["林委員倩綺：對，你講的論文的部分，或許有所謂數量跟它真正貢獻這一個區塊的討論，我們都知道質非常的難討論，但是量或許是大家現在看得到的，或許主委就必須要在這裡面再做一些更……"],["吳主任委員誠文：一個適度的平衡。"],["林委員倩綺：不是只有平衡，我想您可能要做很大的努力才能夠調整大家目前對量的迷思，所以這其實有些東西是結合在一起，第一個是這則報導講到科研人才的成效，當然它的重點是在未來的研究人才何去何從，會裡面可不可以幫這些研究人才想一想要怎麼辦，你們除了補助他們，在計畫裡面他們成為了短期人才，可能有些人會覺得要變成低價勞工，但是未來他們要去哪裡，對大家來講會很迷惘，當然不是我們一定要幫他找到工作，研究人才的何去何從，我們在計畫補助上跟計畫的未來性或許可以一起來考量，這個是這則報導，我所給的一點建議，我們不是說報導可能有他的想法，但是我看到是一個系統性的問題，所以國科會在這裡面是不是可以有更多一點的角色？","最後一個提醒，剛才主委講到所謂論文，我們講到量跟質，但是量就是大家現在的迷思，我們經常是有很多的量，但是我們被引用的數量其實是少的，這可能在貢獻度上就會有一些影響，有一個報導表示臺灣在量的部分大概是全球二十幾名，可是我們在被引用的數量是全球倒數的，荷蘭在量的部分也是二十幾名，可是在被引用的數據上也是二十幾名，這相對是平衡的，所以我很期待未來能夠聽到主委談論一下我們要如何打破這個量的迷思，可是質又怎麼樣被評價，這是我的一個提醒，未來我也會針對這幾個方向再跟主委還有會裡面來做更進一步的探討。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，這是我們努力的方向。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝主委，加油。"],["主席：主委請回，謝謝林倩綺委員。","再來我們請吳沛憶委員來代主席，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員沛憶代）：接下來請范雲委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:13:39","end_time":"2024-09-30T10:09:19+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154945","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","duration":819,"start_time":"2024-09-30T09:55:40+08:0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先進．列席的政府局院首長官員．會長公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生．有請人事總處書人事長請人事長"},{"start":14.987,"end":38.416,"text":"市長早 人事長早我跟莊委我們都很相宜的我們這個雙東雖然不是苦情姐妹但是命運跟社會所以希望我們這些公務人員的人力的充實尤其中央機關的派出人員一定要想辦法解決問題但是解決問題除了增加員額除了找到人出來還有其他的方法我們共同努力好不好你要跟財政部說的話我們可以做的來參悟"},{"start":39.816,"end":59.161,"text":"這位是你的課室嗎?好不好?好,謝謝來,我們來看一下其實呢,不只人兒、人兒要讓馬兒好,就要讓馬兒有草吃啦像我們這個課題,黨總預算,那軍公教到底加薪有沒有旺現在,這個我們的總預算被退回啊所以今天你來這邊只有業務報告,連預算報告都沒有招委排這個也很苦惱,來做一個業務報告而已那你覺得,軍公要調薪3%有沒有辦法發?"},{"start":68.199,"end":71.402,"text":"那如果真的都遙遙無期最後發的只能按照"},{"start":78.521,"end":87.049,"text":"明年只能按照今年的水平來發嗎?每年就沒辦法期待這個價錢啊我是安心給我服務所做 你說好喔 公務員調薪人就做得到喔 現在他們就玩樂了因為不只公務人員啦 因為很多的一些民間的機構"},{"start":102.663,"end":106.626,"text":"包括我屏東府的助理 我要跟他說軍公教條性我們照例是跟著調的 你看要怎樣"},{"start":109.656,"end":115.44,"text":"我們公部門也有使用勞基法的人員那公部門有沒有規劃這些人員也有什麼方式可以各機關去協議嗎 有沒有"},{"start":139.136,"end":150.524,"text":"我委員報告這個問題我們上面有討論過但是這裡面也牽涉到政府機關的還有國營事業的那你們開始著手去"},{"start":151.653,"end":152.473,"text":"了解了嗎?"},{"start":152.473,"end":153.594,"text":"去徵詢了沒有?"},{"start":153.594,"end":154.194,"text":"有有有有喔?"},{"start":154.194,"end":171.659,"text":"有就好 因為很多公務機關 他們適用下去發展的運動 他們很期待的啦是不是您可以 承諾一個時間 給我們一個初步的調查的結果我們到各地方機關也去努力一下 有沒有一個方向 要什麼人同意 還是要怎麼做"},{"start":172.819,"end":175.581,"text":"有風雄嗎?還是開始在想?我們這個拜市會邀請經濟部、交通部、國營事業我們處理的一部分是一部分我們處理"},{"start":188.59,"end":189.29,"text":"公務人員 職聘顧 國營事業"},{"start":207.316,"end":227.287,"text":"我看到今天下午2點你們又請這個卓院長要去主持三期機關的首長的一個AI共識營剛剛有委員關心這個AI啊總統賴總統有指示那你們覺得如果總預算目前明年總預算沒有辦法執行對於政府的效能還有你們所謂的輸出AI的用有沒有影響"},{"start":229.462,"end":232.445,"text":"所以這就是你現在講的AI很重視的AI是屬於新興計劃每年有什麼統計我們就沒辦法做"},{"start":251.084,"end":251.224,"text":"主席"},{"start":281.244,"end":284.027,"text":"我認為都有機會嘛 你想說你去現場查看以前我們是用人力嘛 所以一日可以去選一兩隻嘛"},{"start":302.402,"end":322.626,"text":"我如果去善用資訊科技因為我農業部有航測手續我會測量圖嘛然後無人機再會去然後產出的圖資做比對嘛所以滿足民眾的需求有很多種方法每一種方法都要用力去想好不好對啊那我再看我們政府有一種服務專項叫1999啦現在1999有時候民眾現在都關係比較重"},{"start":327.887,"end":352.121,"text":"那都爆滿那現在有的政府打算利用所謂的智能客服就是用AI人工智慧直接讓聊天機器人來面對1999撥打電話的民眾你覺得這可行嗎我覺得可行像美國有些公司他的客服全部都是靠那個智能客服在回應那你剛剛講到的個資外洩剛剛你在提到有委員諮詢說個資外洩那這個過程當中有沒有個資外洩的風險"},{"start":356.007,"end":364.058,"text":"如果台北市有民眾發生有學生用1999檢舉老師結果各自外洩呢?老師到時候哪個學生跟他告狀呢?"},{"start":365.407,"end":388.003,"text":"有沒有這個風險要考慮?我覺得這是內部管理的問題而不是整個系統的問題但是你們也要預先提防什麼人可以去看那些資料應該有一些授權嘛不是大家都可以去看那些資料啊這個其實是流程管理的問題啦我過去常常民眾怒氣沖沖的來找我啦說什麼危險檢舉啦他就問開端的人說要怎麼檢舉"},{"start":394.748,"end":416.176,"text":"欸真的有的承辦人還跟他講捏你就假扮出兵趴好館內啊沒人就給他檢舉民眾彼此之間這種檢舉非常傷感情公務機關秉公執法本來就應該連承辦人員在面對這種陰謀守密的檢舉的案件都有可能會洩密了那未來你們再相關用智能克服的資料非常小心管這個資可以嗎"},{"start":418.933,"end":438.393,"text":"現在我還有一個問題,其實我們AI客服1999其實可等於固定人他能夠運用電話清楚合理的表達自己的需求找到不管是真人來服務還是聊天機器人用AI客服來幫他服務,他們都能適應現在有些人他還是習慣臨櫃辦理,老大人"},{"start":440.715,"end":456.29,"text":"叫他點維工具部工美情策我們很多看到過去信用卡的call center就是這樣子啊辦個信用卡註銷點維工美情策一定要臨櫃那對於這些沒有辦法適應所謂智能客服的人他臨櫃辦理的時候你們有沒有想過怎麼樣提升他們服務的滿意度我舉例來講好了啦往下看"},{"start":462.15,"end":491.011,"text":"其實呢 民眾到聽不到啦 他到公務機關去辦理啦溝通出問題啦 或者說公務人員對法規的了解不完整 什麼意思?這個是民眾的問題 公務員沒了解你要說什麼第二個是 公務員知道他的問題 但是不同的公務員呢 理解有不同的出路來我們舉看看這裡喔 這個民眾A跟民眾B問同樣的問題 但是因為問法不同 可能會給到不同的答案 是不是這樣子?"},{"start":492.439,"end":508.084,"text":"有可能吧 包括AI人工智慧也是一樣嘛 你的問句不一樣 答案就可能不一樣嘛好 但是如果民眾同樣的問題 問張三跟李四兩個不同的承辦人員 林貴人員 結果給出不同的答案 這可以嗎"},{"start":509.997,"end":521.043,"text":"張山公務員跟李氏公務員面對同一個民眾他上週來問遇到張山 張山告訴他怎麼辦下週來問到李氏 李氏說不對要這樣辦當然公務員都用嘴巴講 口頭講我常常遇到民眾來陳情 常常跟我說他怎麼說怎麼說 我說不會吧 誰跟你說的他不知道 他怎麼說怎麼說 他有笑給你嗎"},{"start":538.234,"end":548.206,"text":"有可能民眾理解錯誤有可能答詢的公務員認知法令上有不一樣所以造成民眾很混淆那要怎麼樣去解決?要怎麼改觀?我認為可以訴求一種方式"},{"start":552.33,"end":572.464,"text":"一般的民眾去臨過的時針,他用語音輸入的時候,公務員的螢幕就跑出來這個文字,然後這個文字再檢視一下,說一句讓他聽,到最後沒問題,引出來,選名一個,簽名,一字回去,一字回去給那些白人再問一句,這樣才有一個依據"},{"start":582.57,"end":582.69,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":603.022,"end":630.889,"text":"對於同樣的問題的答案應該是同樣的這第一個 第二個同樣的答案確認過之後 輸出給民眾解釋給他聽他聽得懂聽不懂 其次至少他拿著這一張得到的答案他可以再問其他的人好不好 可以這樣做嗎那應該是請事務的事務發布人事總處你在推動AI導入你們這樣的共識 你要把這個東西講出去啊有時候AI不只是處理民眾的問題"},{"start":631.869,"end":632.189,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":649.945,"end":671.099,"text":"報個案只會拿三年單回來 造勢車禍紀錄填寫 起來通商也都沒有 所以這個部分你要求我們的公務員現場紀錄很辛苦 有沒有什麼方式可以減輕這些現場我們這個員警執勤同仁的負擔 不要讓他耗費太多時間在這文書作業 但是又能讓民眾可以拿到完整的說明 可以嗎"},{"start":672.427,"end":699.358,"text":"其實今天我有拜託檢證署張署長現在先22個縣市每一個縣市先找5個點來示範因為就是因為現在已經輸入也是很普遍而且正確率也蠻高的那事實上我們有推估過那個報案時間跟整個報案時間大概由原來的兩個多鐘頭可以收到答案所以已經在推了已經在示範了我不知道要進度因為我進度有"},{"start":702.359,"end":702.639,"text":"政府的資安專職人員嚴重不足"},{"start":720.148,"end":720.628,"text":"我想這個問題都普遍啦"},{"start":745.76,"end":773.57,"text":"中央跟地方不只是治安專職人員因為是找不到人怎麼對應這是一種有緣額但找不到人司法官也是一樣有緣額找不到人那解決的方法有緣額不足的我們有提供額外的緣額有辦法整決過老的問題最後找不到人的單位不管你是給他法官助理檢察官助理檢察事務官檢查這些終究要找到人那人事總署要協助用人機關"},{"start":774.93,"end":792.974,"text":"也在辦強迫請他們不只只是要緣額：給了緣額之後要把需要的人找到可以嗎想出解決方案我們一直都跟法務部跟司法院在溝通這個事要不要我們趙偉這邊安排一個大家聯席來研究一個方案不要說他們都沒人沒人沒人有兩種一種是沒緣額一種是讓你緣額你找沒人"},{"start":798.431,"end":798.912,"text":"主席主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:55:40 - 10:09:19","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154945","gazette":{"lineno":381,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時55分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請人事總處蘇人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：召委早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：人事長早。我跟莊委員都很有誠意，我們雙東雖然不是苦情姐妹花，但是命運連結在一起，所以希望我們這些公務人員人力的充實，尤其中央機關派駐人員一定要想辦法解決問題，但是解決問題除了增加員額，除了找到人之外，還有其他的方法，我們共同努力，好不好？你和財政部討論的時候，我們可以一起來參與，當你的靠山，這樣好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，其實不只員額問題，要讓馬兒好，就要讓馬兒有草吃，像這個課題「擋總預算，軍公教到底加薪有沒有望？」現在我們的總預算被退回，所以今天你來這邊只有業務報告，連預算報告都沒有，召委排這個也很苦惱，只有來做一個業務報告而已。你覺得軍公教調薪3%有沒有辦法發？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：總預算退回，大院沒有通過要怎麼發。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這會影響到嗎？如果真的都遙遙無期，最後明年只能按照今年的水平來發嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果沒有通過，明年就是按照今年的金額領。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以明年就沒有辦法期待加薪了，我已經跟我服務處的同仁講好了，公務員調薪我們就一起調薪，現在他們煩惱了，因為不是只有公務人員，很多的民間機構，包括我屏東服務處的助理，我也跟他們說軍公教調薪，我們照例是跟著調的，你看要怎麼辦？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在最好的就是早點通過，讓大家明年可以早點領。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為就算軍公教調薪沒有通過，明年我的服務處照調，照樣調薪3%。接下來，另外一個小問題，其實勞基法剛剛三讀通過第五十四條，勞雇雙方可以協議延後退休，我們公部門也有適用勞基法的人員，公部門有沒有規劃這些人員也有什麼方式可以各機關去協議嗎？有嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，這個問題我們上禮拜有討論過，但是這裡面也牽涉到政府機關，還有國營事業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們開始著手去瞭解了嗎？去徵詢了沒有？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有就好，因為很多公務機關適用勞基法的這些員工，他們都很期待，你是不是可以承諾一個時間給我們一個初步調查的結果？我們到各地方機關也去努力一下，有沒有一個方向？要什麼人同意，還是要怎麼做，有方向嗎？還是開始在想了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們星期四會邀請經濟部、交通部、國營事業，我們要處理的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個部分、一個部分處理。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一塊是公務人員職聘僱，一個是國營事業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為廣義的公務機關當中適用勞基法的人員有很多種類型，你們一類、一類處理，星期四結果怎麼樣先讓我們知道，好不好？可以嗎？你們有一個初步結論先讓我們知道，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，謝謝。接下來我看到今天下午2點你們有請卓院長去主持三級機關首長的AI共識營，剛剛有委員關心AI，賴總統有指示，你們覺得如果明年總預算沒有辦法執行，對於政府的效能還有你們所謂的輸出AI應用有沒有影響？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個可能會影響到一些部會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：明年的這個預算你們是編在新興計畫嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：明年的新興計畫可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：AI輸出是不是編在新興計畫？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會延後來辦理，因為預算沒有通過，我們就不可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你現在講的很重視的AI是屬於新興計畫，如果明年的預算沒有通過，我們就沒辦法做，是不是這樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：當然了，沒通過就沒錢可以做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們就希望大家既然對於AI的輸出有共識，預算還是要趕快的務實來審議啦！","好，再請教一下，既然說AI是下個階段政府轉型的發展關鍵，我們政府機關導入AI後，有沒有可能會去調整到我們公務人員的員額？比如說剛剛莊委員跟我都很關心的，包括國產署他們的基層人員，到底我們對於國家土地的管理，除了員額編制增加，偏遠地區有沒有其他方法透過AI來幫助讓民眾的需求得到滿足，不要累積、積案，久久都沒去測量、沒去管理，有辦法嗎？有沒有幫助？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得都有機會，在現場查勘以前我們是用人力，所以一天可以去巡一、兩件嘛！如果去善用資訊科技，因為農業部有航測所，它有測量圖，然後無人機再飛去，產出的圖資做比對……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以滿足民眾的需求有很多種方法，每種方法都要用力去想，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，再來看我們政府有1999服務專線，現在有時候民眾都習慣打電話，1999都爆滿，現在有的政府打算利用所謂的智能客服，就是用AI人工智慧直接讓聊天機器人來面對撥打1999電話的民眾，你覺得這可行嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得可行，像美國有些公司它的客服全部都是靠智能客服在回應。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你剛剛講到的個資外洩，剛才委員質詢的時候你有提到個資外洩，這個過程當中有沒有個資外洩的風險？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：臺北市發生有學生用1999檢舉老師，結果個資外洩，老師都知道是哪個學生給他告狀耶！有沒有這個風險要考慮？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這是內部管理的問題，而不是整個系統的問題……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是你們也要預先提防。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：管理好什麼人可以去看那些資料，應該有一些授權嘛！不是大家都可以去看那些資料。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個其實是流程管理的問題啦！過去民眾常常怒氣沖沖的來找我說違建檢舉，他就問開單的人說是誰檢舉我的？真的有的承辦人還跟他講耶！叫他跟隔壁鄰居打好關係，不然人家就檢舉你。民眾彼此之間這種檢舉非常傷感情，公務機關秉公執法本來就應該，連承辦人員在面對這種應守密的檢舉案件都有可能會洩密了，未來你們在用相關智能客服都要非常小心管制個資，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在我還有一個問題，其實打AI客服、1999電話的就是那些人，他能夠運用電話清楚、合理的表達自己的需求，找到不管是真人來服務還是聊天機器人用AI客服來幫他服務，他們都能適應。現在有些人還是習慣臨櫃辦理，老人家在電話裡講半天講不清楚。我看到過去很多信用卡的call center就是這樣子啊！辦個信用卡註銷，電話講不清楚，一定要臨櫃，對於這些沒有辦法適應所謂智能客服的人，他臨櫃辦理的時候，你們有沒有想過怎麼樣提升他們服務的滿意度？我舉例來講好了，民眾聽不懂，他到公務機關去辦理，溝通出問題，或者說公務人員對法規的了解不完整，什麼意思？一個是民眾的問題，公務員不了解你在說什麼；第二個是公務員知道他的問題，但是不同的公務員理解有不同的出入。來，我們看看這個例子，民眾A跟民眾B問同樣的問題，但是因為問法不同，可能會給到不同的答案，是不是這樣子？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有可能嘛！包括AI人工智慧也是一樣，你的問句不一樣，答案就可能不一樣。但是如果民眾同樣的問題，問張三跟李四兩個不同的承辦人員、臨櫃人員，結果給出不同的答案，這可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上是避免這樣啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是避免啦！要怎麼防止嘛！張三公務員跟李四公務員面對同一個民眾，他上週來問遇到張三，張三告訴他說怎麼辦；下週來遇到李四，李四說不對，要這樣辦，當然公務員都用嘴巴講、口頭講啦！我常常遇到民眾來跟我陳情說他怎麼說、怎麼說，我說不會吧！誰跟你說的？他不知道。他是這樣說嗎？他有寫給你嗎？沒有，沒有寫給我，用嘴巴說的啊！有可能民眾理解錯誤，有可能答詢的公務員認知法令上有不一樣，所以造成民眾很混淆，那要怎麼樣去解決？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得可以思考一種方式，一般的民眾去臨櫃用語音輸入的時候，公務員的螢幕就跑出來這個文字，然後這個文字再檢視一下，講一次給他聽，最後沒問題就印出來，跟他說明一下，簽個名，他帶回去，他帶回去給那些瞭解的人再問一次，這樣才有一個依據啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你內行的啦！像我們委員、民意代表是懂的人，民眾常常困擾、需要救濟來找我們，他陳述的時候，第一個，他陳述不清楚；第二個，他在轉述公務員的答復的時候，他不能精確的轉述。所以我都跟他說你請那個公務員寫給你，如果照你這樣說，未來導入AI人工智慧，其實很重要的是什麼？首先要讓我們臨櫃的公務員對於同樣的問題，答案應該是同樣的，這第一個。第二個，同樣的答案確認無誤之後，輸出給民眾，解釋給他聽，他聽得懂、聽不懂其次，至少他拿著這一張得到的答案可以再問其他的人，好不好？可以這樣做嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那應該是請數位部來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，你們人事總處在推動AI導入，你們的共識要把這個東西講出去啊！有時候AI不只是處理民眾的問題，AI也是要統整我們公務人員對法令理解一致性的問題，這樣好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這樣我下午再來講一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，拜託你。","最後，你們提到說希望各種紀錄的業務導入AI來減輕負擔，其實現在最嚴重的就是什麼？我們的員警同仁，報個案只會拿三聯單回來，肇事車禍紀錄填寫什麼都沒有，所以這個部分我們的公務人員現場紀錄很辛苦，有沒有什麼方式可以減輕這些現場員警、執勤同仁的負擔？不要讓他耗費太多時間在文書作業，但是又能讓民眾可以拿到完整的說明，可以嗎？有沒有什麼作法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實這件事我有拜託警政署張署長，現在22個縣市每一個縣市先找5個點來試辦，因為現在語音輸入也是很普遍，而且正確率也蠻高的。事實上，我們有推估過整個報案時間大概由原來的兩個多鐘頭，可以縮短……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以已經在推了、已經在試辦了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我不知道進度，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我來問一下，要求一下警政署，這個很好啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這樣警察一個案子也不用忙那麼久……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，我覺得很好。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：老百姓去報個案也不用在那邊坐那麼久。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，要導入AI。","最後，政府的資安專職人員嚴重不足，是編制不夠還是找不到人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：編制我們都有給它啊……"],["鍾委員佳濱：找不到人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：人就是難找……"],["鍾委員佳濱：難找？薪水太低、待遇不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：也不能這樣說，因為針對資安我們每一個月都有給他增支專業加給3,000或5,000，然後也有一些獎金，甚至他們還在規劃久留，如果留一個機關多做幾年，可以再領一筆錢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我想這個問題都普遍，中央跟地方不只是資安專職人員找不到人，怎麼應對？這是一種，有員額但找不到人，司法官也是一樣，有員額但找不到人。解決的方法，員額不足的我們有提供額外的員額，有沒有辦法解決過勞的問題？最後，找不到人的單位，不管你是給他法官助理、檢察官助理、檢察事務官，這些終究要找得到人，人事總處要協助用人機關，也是半強迫，請他們不只是要員額，給了員額之後，要把需要的人找到，可以嗎？想出解決方案。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們一直都跟法務部、司法院在溝通這個事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要不要我們召委這邊安排大家聯席來研究一個方案？不要他們都說沒人、沒人，沒人有兩種，一種是沒員額，一種是有給你員額但找不到人，要不要？需不需要？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：檢察官的部分，其實我們有建議說錄取的人要多一倍，因為從提缺到訓練完大概要3年……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請把你們的建議臚列個書面給我，我來找相關的部會共同來研議，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。接下來請沈發惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","林思銘","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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請主委 請你主委委員長 主委 早上好我們今天這回來維護臺灣外送產業環境的整體利益決心今天剛才我之前在說的 我們要再積極一點這位來錄影 你最近有注意一個案子嗎九月份的時候 九月份的時候"},{"start":42.043,"end":70.242,"text":"護編打因為沒有提供外送員的強制汽車責任保險然後被台南市政府給他裁罰了你有注意到這個新聞嗎?有嘛齁後來台南市政府還敗訴因為換言之說他是保險不是屬於地方的自治的一個事項撤銷的原處分然後現在台南市政府要提上訴嘛齁我提到這個案子是因為護編打跟這個Uber Eats他順利如果結合以後會變成一個"},{"start":71.226,"end":96.508,"text":"一家獨大對不對那以後會不會變成很多地方的自治條例反而管不到他你有沒有思考過這個問題如果從比較積極面去想這個問題有想過這個事情嗎你看到這個新聞的時候有想到嗎一家獨大的時候會不會地方要管他們或者地方要求這個外送平台要做一些對外送員的保險啊保障啊更難做嗎對不對"},{"start":99.052,"end":102.415,"text":"主委我現在說的我把它鎖定在9月這個9月如果是連臺南市政府都敗訴了外送員"},{"start":128.167,"end":154.172,"text":"這個負邊島不讓他保嘛 對不對那以後如果變成兩家合在一起以後這個壓力會不會更大?反正更沒辦法去確保外送員的這個權利就是說地方政府或者是其他主管機關他要求外送平台做什麼事情他應該會有相關的這個法源依據或者是相關的這個行政措施那至於這些措施合以不合以有沒有一個法令的依據這就是另外一個行政偵測的過程"},{"start":156.024,"end":180.812,"text":"你公平交易法的宗旨叫你們的任務,來我們看一下,其實剛才你叫家俊會有那麼多的,不要講攻防,就是為什麼會,一個比較積,他一直在講說你不過積極面嘛。公平交易法裡面你有六大任務對不對?維護消費者保護利益,確保自由跟公平競爭,一二四五六都是很積極面的喔。"},{"start":182.53,"end":199.858,"text":"三跟四稍微比較消極面那這次的併鍋案裡面大家聽到說可能有三大影響所以那時候你曾經講過你公開講過對不對包括四個面向要去審查那為什麼我從九月份這個判決切進來你也可以說你不要管啊"},{"start":201.001,"end":202.022,"text":"我們對結合之後會產生的各種影響都有評估而且"},{"start":219.997,"end":247.852,"text":"在我們的這個申請裡面我們北中南全省各地都收集不見所以我們把它鎖定用這個用臺南市政府跟會不會打這個你覺得如果合併以後會不會外送員的潛力受到更大影響用這個為例子所以這個就是說結合以後對於外送員的這個不管是報酬或是價格這一方面我們都會處理至於保險就是說保險這件事情因為我不知道"},{"start":248.672,"end":267.264,"text":"你現在台南市政府要叫不定人嗎?如果是又更大的會不會更難叫?就是說他叫不定人是什麼事叫不定人不定人還是要聚集?如果是保險那這應該是看相關的法律怎麼適用這個新聞這個事件會不會影響到你們在決定要不要讓他合併的時候?如果以這個來看"},{"start":274.608,"end":279.312,"text":"對阿可是法院判決他輸了嘛我剛的意思就是說你現在決定他能不能合併嘛那只有單純就保險這個事情然後講合併以後難度一定更高嘛"},{"start":307.996,"end":324.082,"text":"來我們看一下所以才會講說你的積極的功能要發揮好不好來我們看下一張我剛剛主委有講了你們都已經開了很多公聽會對不對你們有在努力我們前陣子台灣民眾黨你看楊瓊英、楊偉炎、林國成、易軍他們我們也開了一個公聽會來我們來討論一下我們報告的內容來下一張"},{"start":331.377,"end":344.867,"text":"我們有學界跟專家跟民團因為他們在提醒至少有五件事情第一個兩大外送平台合併以後到底是誰得利這是大家最關心的第一個第二個合併以後如果外送平台片面去砍價"},{"start":346.107,"end":369.277,"text":"那外送員去申訴就會被停權嗎?目前這個已經在發生了就跟剛剛講保險事情是一樣的好那合併以後會不會潛入更大的損害?第三個 面對數位平台經濟的多邊性大者都獨大大者如果一直獨大資訊就不對稱了外送員受到演算法控制公平交易法的執行機關你到底有沒有去想過"},{"start":370.578,"end":392.035,"text":"你們有沒有足夠的量能去執法這個要好好想一下第4個現在公平交易法是不過因應要不要訂一個專法第5個日本他們本身是有最大的外送平台的所以他們叫做出錢館對不對那你們有沒有考慮在這個合併要不要併的時候考慮要不要我們台灣自己有個像日本的這個出錢館來我問4個很具體的問題來我們看一下迪雷"},{"start":397.287,"end":411.195,"text":"主委你回應過嘛,你說現在正在審查這些文件,只是後來資料不齊全對不對?剛剛很多委員問你的時候,你說資料又不齊全,到底放什麼資料?現在缺了什麼資料?我想跟委員說明,會時間這麼久"},{"start":414.215,"end":429.277,"text":"重大的結合案件本來時間就會很久比如說全年病大論發這各界也非常的有疑慮那越年越會要變病這個糖溶這個都是會花比較多的時間注意注意我們時間比較有限你們聚焦很清楚的講現在到底少了什麼資料"},{"start":430.333,"end":459.219,"text":"我們現在譬如說在將來的這個評估還有剛才您提到的結合的中效你這個結合對我們要評估說你的競爭利益你的經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利益那你這個結合有什麼經濟利益你綜合效果是什麼那譬如說剛才委員提到的那幾點那個就是有可能是限制競爭的不利益那你整個結合的中效是什麼我們希望他能夠要這些東西很好啊他怎麼拖那麼久沒有給你"},{"start":460.219,"end":488.593,"text":"因為第一個就是說他外商啦就外商他在這個資料的準備當中會需要跟外國總部其實可以靠時間因為外商你現在有壓力嗎沒有壓力你怎麼那你剛剛的問題都切中壓話你外商他要準備一些資料第一你跟他要哪些資料你剛剛回答得很好這個正常他就應該給你啊所以第一個結論他不應該再拖延這是第一個問題第二個我再問你有沒有壓力嘛"},{"start":488.933,"end":489.574,"text":"主委快一點好不好"},{"start":508.737,"end":533.894,"text":"另外你回應過嘛你說你這段時間會去徵詢利害關係人的意見對不對是包括餐廳、外送員、消費者還有相關的這個主管機關包括消保會跟勞動部我現在在網路上面有看到勞動部已經開了8次的會議了資料在網路上我也看到了可是沒有看到消保會跟利害關係人的會議紀錄你有跟那個消保會要這個資料嗎"},{"start":537.999,"end":549.206,"text":"我們有請小保會針對這個結合案提供意見小保會的意見有提供有齁那因為勞動部的都已經上網了他看不到你可以把這個紀錄給我嗎小保會的紀錄我會後了解一下提供給委員兩週內給我兩週內給我好不好最後一個問題"},{"start":562.369,"end":582.683,"text":"那天開公聽會 很多專家寫者都問到說 裡面一個最重要的關鍵是什麼特別是外送聯盟 你們到底準不準他合併 最重要的是相關市場的界定就你把它界定是不是就很單純的外送平台產業你們現在目前的界定是什麼 往哪個方向走 它很單純就是一個外送平台嗎"},{"start":586.253,"end":593.026,"text":"前一案是美食外送平台的市場接近那我們這個案子我們還要再評估甚至我們還要在委員會裡面會去討論"},{"start":595.258,"end":621.619,"text":"現在是很多專家寫者有擔心所以你那個相關市場界定要很明確好不好那我現在就是很明確的要求到你們到時候審的時候審以後的那個整個書面要公開透明給大家看好不好最後做一個總結我們希望第一個要阻止這個壟斷家具的勞工的這個剝削要保障勞工基本的這個潛力第二個要防止那個數據的壟斷危及這整個產業第三"},{"start":622.159,"end":622.7,"text":"主任委員會主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:53:40 - 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Eats，地方政府能不能要求他保險？可以或不可以，其實現在就存在這個問題。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，可是法院判決他輸了嘛！我剛才的意思就是，你現在要決定他能不能合併，如果單純就保險這個事情，老實講，合併以後難度一定更高嘛，對吧？點頭嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：他的市占率會變高。"],["張委員啓楷：會變高嘛！會更難叫得動了，所以才會說你的積極的功能要發揮，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛主委有講，你們都已經開了很多公聽會，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你們有在努力，前陣子台灣民眾黨，你看楊瓊瓔楊委員、林國成、憶君等等，我們也開了一個公聽會，我們來討論一下我們報告的內容。我們有學界、專家跟民團，他們在提醒至少有5件事情，第一個，兩大外送平臺合併以後，到底是誰得利？這是大家最關心的第一個。第二個，合併以後，如果外送平臺片面去砍價，外送員去申訴就會被停權嗎？目前這個已經在發生了，就跟剛剛講保險的事情是一樣的，合併以後會不會造成權利更大的損害？第三個，面對數位平臺經濟的多邊性，如果大者一直獨大，資訊就不對稱了，外送員受到演算法控制，公平交易法的執行機關到底有沒有去想過，你們有沒有足夠的量能去執法？這個要好好想一下。第四個，現在的公平交易法是不是不夠因應？要不要訂一個專法？第五個，日本本身是有最大的外送平臺，叫做「出前館」，當你們在考慮在這個合併案要不要併的時候，有沒有考慮過臺灣自己要不要有一個像日本的出前館？我問四個很具體的問題，來，我們看一下。","關於第一個，主委回應過嘛！你說現在正在審查這些文件，只是後來資料不齊全，剛剛很多委員問你的時候，你說資料還不齊全，到底現在缺了什麼資料？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，時間之所以會這麼久，其實重大的結合案件本來時間就會很久，譬如說全聯併大潤發，這各界也非常地有疑慮，或是燁聯、燁輝要併唐榮，這個都會花比較多的時間。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我們時間比較有限，你能不能聚焦、很清楚地講，現在到底少了什麼資料？"],["李主任委員鎂：譬如說在將來的評估，還有剛才您提到的……"],["張委員啓楷：不是，你現在叫他要補什麼資料？具體的，你現在要他補什麼資料？"],["李主任委員鎂：剛剛我有提到，包括結合的綜效，我們要評估他的經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利益、他這個結合有什麼經濟利益、他的綜合效果是什麼？譬如說，剛才委員提到的那幾點，那個就有可能是限制競爭的不利益，而他整個結合的綜效是什麼？我們希望他能夠……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你跟他要這些東西很好，他怎麼拖那麼久沒有給你？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為第一個，他是外商，外商在資料的準備當中會需要跟外國總部……"],["張委員啓楷：來，這就是我的第一個問題，因為是外商，所以你現在有壓力嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有壓力。"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛的問題都切中要害……"],["李主任委員鎂：他是外商，他要準備一些資料……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，聽我講。"],["李主任委員鎂：抱歉，我要接下去……"],["張委員啓楷：你跟他要哪些資料？你剛剛回答得很好，這個正常他就應該給你啊！所以第一個結論，他不應該再拖延，這是第一個問題。第二個，我就要問你有沒有壓力嘛？你說到外商……"],["李主任委員鎂：抱歉！容我講清楚，因為他是一個外商，他的律師代理人在準備這些資料，要跟國外總部花比較多的時間，在資料的準備上要經過國外總部的同意，我的外商是指這個，絕對沒有任何壓力。"],["張委員啓楷：我知道啦！主委，快一點，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：好。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，你回應過嘛！你說你這段時間會去徵詢利害關係人的意見，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：包括餐廳、外送員、消費者，還有相關的主管機關，包括消保會及勞動部，我現在在網路上面有看到，勞動部已經開了8次會議了，資料在網路上，我也看到了，可是沒有看到消保會跟利害關係人的會議紀錄，你有跟消保會要這個資料嗎？目前有嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有請消保會針對這個結合案提供他們的意見。"],["張委員啓楷：意見有提供了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：消保會有提供意見。"],["張委員啓楷：因為勞動部的都已經上網了，但它的看不到，你可以把這個紀錄給我嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：消保會的紀錄？"],["張委員啓楷：對。"],["李主任委員鎂：我會後了解一下再提供給委員。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，兩週內給我，好不好？","最後一個問題，那天開公聽會很多專家學者都問到，說裡面最重要的一個關鍵是什麼，特別是外送聯盟說你們到底准不准它合併最重要是相關市場的界定，就是你把它界定是不是很單純的外送平臺產業，你們現在的界定是往哪個方向走？它很單純就是一個外送平臺嗎？還是有些人提供不一樣的意見，要把它擴大？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們前一案是美食外送平臺的市場界定，那這個案子我們還要再評估，甚至我們還要在委員會裡面會去討論。"],["張委員啓楷：現在是很多專家學者擔心，所以相關市場界定要很明確，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在就是很明確的要求，你們到時候審查的整個書面要公開、透明給大家看，好不好？","最後，我做一個總結，我們希望第一個要阻止這個壟斷加劇勞工的剝削，要保障勞工基本的權利。第二個，要防止數據的壟斷，危及整個產業。第三個，要維護公平市場的環境及促進創新。第四個，一定要促進臺灣外送平臺產業的整體利益，而且能夠永續發展。好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我剛剛要的資料，主委記得差不多兩個禮拜內要給我，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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一定會有的就是說你也是要照顧一下我們北台灣也會 當然會希望不要太久因為聽起來現在好像還沒有具體的計畫可是預算有限我知道預算有限但是因為我們來自於北台灣當然希望能夠為北台灣爭取希望能夠快一點另外就是我們AI如果要成長的話用電量會大增你對於我們現在的電力有信心嗎"},{"start":115.134,"end":135.073,"text":"有信心有信心喔?你跟台電有研究過是不是?有問過台電?台電我跟還是台電有告訴你說絕對供電無虞?因為之前郭志輝部長也講說台灣要發展AI的話一定要可能不排除用核電後來但後來還有改口了啦現在對"},{"start":136.638,"end":153.149,"text":"好啦 這個我不為難你的主委總而言之就是你在產業的立場我覺得你也要如果說行政院有機會溝通的話也要注意他們要電的問題啦是然後另外一個就是說因為我看到你在立法院詢答的時候很有信心啦就是說台灣應該在3年內我們的AI實力會超過日韓啦"},{"start":155.179,"end":178.873,"text":"但是我們立法院預算中心所提出來的報告他指出我們AI排名跟超級電腦算力持續落後而且根據國際排名AI的準備度112年世界排名是14名現在下滑到19名落後新加坡南韓日本跟中國大陸所以如果你要在三年之內超過南韓的信心來自於哪裡"},{"start":179.753,"end":202.539,"text":"我們已經開始在編列預算未來幾年預算會投入雲端運算機房的這個建置所以之前是預算不足才落後只要我們預算編下去我們就會超前這個意思過去我們的重點可能比較注重在但是你會編預算別人日本韓國也會編預算所以我們在應用上也要再加強"},{"start":203.379,"end":212.103,"text":"因為這個題目很大我覺得主委講的稍微抽象一點我覺得有機會的話你應該把它具體一點再跟大家討論因為你的目標很宏大但是大家現在看起來不曉得你的具體作法在哪裡如果說只有變預算恐怕還是不夠"},{"start":230.112,"end":242.288,"text":"我們政府的綱要計畫方案已經編了編了以後接下來到年底之前就會有一些執行的真正的計畫就會出現到時候會跟大家來報告那今天我們的"},{"start":243.796,"end":262.345,"text":"專題報告叫《永續科研與政策溝通》我知道為什麼早晚會排這個題目當然是因為有大概有600個學者吧就是針對國科會要把這幾個學門把它拆解重組表達非常的不滿我會表示這個不存在這個議題不存在但是因為我後來看了國科會對於後來到600個學者連署對這600個學者的回應實際上我覺得也是有點實問虛答"},{"start":271.989,"end":276.778,"text":"因為國安會的講法是說沒有沒有我們的預算編列有增加說增加到48億是不是 是嗎"},{"start":279.806,"end":305.64,"text":"今年48億明年52億4.8億是國會本身但是我們永續的議題是100多億的因為你們的回應是4.8億啦但是我覺得學者應該在乎的不是錢的問題啦因為所有的一個研究它需要長期的戰略跟長期的規劃那你忽然間把一些學門它可能正在進行當中的學門你把它拆解重組對於它的研究它忽然打亂了報告委員沒有要拆解啦"},{"start":308.101,"end":322.288,"text":"我知道我們學者學者是這樣覺得嘛所以這中間又出現很大的問題啊所以今天稍微排的是永續發展科研與政策溝通這就很奇怪就是說你在這邊講說完全沒有這個問題結果有600個學者連署反對你"},{"start":325.729,"end":350.094,"text":"那大家吃飽撐著沒事幹去做這個事嗎?不可能嘛你一定是在溝通上出現了問題嘛如果你從來都沒有要去改變的話那人家是夢到嗎還是忽然間是怎樣有人造謠嗎?一定是你們在對外宣傳的部分透露出這樣的訊息大家緊張你可以說他超前部署所以他做了這個動作嘛過程當中絕對有問題你不可能說他們無緣故去做這個動作"},{"start":352.095,"end":371.232,"text":"所以我覺得那個主委假設啦並沒有要拆解重組這件事情的話那你應該去檢討請問一下在政策溝通的過程當中出現什麼問題我覺得這個是今天可能啦我猜趙偉可能要排這個題目的原因啦但是呢這個你就自己因為等一下趙偉可能會罵你啦我就不多說話了"},{"start":372.934,"end":389.486,"text":"但是我就想要繼續問因為今天既然講到永續發展跟所謂的淨零碳排我想問足了一個問題我們都知道其實中國大陸在這塊是表現非常優秀根據外媒的報導比如說至少他們在中國大陸在"},{"start":391.735,"end":391.995,"text":"祖偉在剛上任時提到"},{"start":418.809,"end":428.509,"text":"你不排斥跟中國的科技做交流你也說你也無意讓中國科技持續落後只要在合乎法律的情況之下國會都會支持跟對岸來往"},{"start":429.281,"end":452.331,"text":"但是我們後來就看了一下現在的兩岸的交流我們就發現說好像屬於一種幾乎停滯的狀態左邊的圖是國際的交流其實在國際的交流方面就已經有下滑的趨勢你看2024年合定的件數355件已經比2017年幾乎腰斬左邊是國際的部分右邊是"},{"start":454.073,"end":482.475,"text":"國科會補助邀請大陸地區暨香港澳門科技人士來台的這個申請跟核定表到2024年只有三件然後預算總共是只有19萬等於是說你只有大概補助19萬那我們在整個計畫大概編多少錢呢我們的整個計畫大概編了3億多3億多中國大陸的補助19萬其實它的比例是非常的低那除了這個資料之外還有另外我們也可以看到"},{"start":484.128,"end":500.871,"text":"這是補助兩岸學術科技交流的申請跟核定的件數。2024年申請18件,核定5件。不管是申請件數跟核定件數都往下滑的趨勢。請教一下主委,現在兩岸到底學術是遇到什麼問題?"},{"start":502.782,"end":526.395,"text":"我們國科會當然是一直鼓勵我們的學術研究我們的學者能夠跟全世界的學者交流往來才會進步那目前跟大陸方面的這樣的交流是受限於大陸方面對台灣的不友善的行為所引起的"},{"start":526.815,"end":550.025,"text":"所以是我們是我們邀他不來還是說因為我們覺得他不友善所以我們連邀都沒邀我們即使我們邀他們啊他們他們的國內啊其實也有自己的限制存在那我們這邊也要透過我們不是只有國科會我們還有行政院的機制在對因為因為我的瞭解不是這樣瞭解是說現在"},{"start":551.105,"end":576.006,"text":"你要申請學術對岸過來學術交流好像要專案審查嘛專案審查陸委會那邊就會擋了嘛那我是覺得學術歸學術政治歸政治啦就是說如果大家認為兩岸科技交流特別是我剛講在永續發展跟氣候變遷這一塊連美國都要跟中國大陸交流那台灣也可以秉持著就是科學交流的精神嘛對不對把政治撇一邊啦"},{"start":577.541,"end":600.96,"text":"我記得這個也是竹偉你上任的一個理想你就是說只要在不違反法律的情況之下兩岸科技多交流是好事我們只要把法令允許可是實際上看得出來這個數字真的是下滑非常多我就覺得非常可惜我覺得非常可惜就是因為政治的關係讓科技無法持續的合作再來我想跟竹偉問一個計畫的進度比如說我們不是"},{"start":607.168,"end":611.712,"text":"國會會在之前前主委吳政宗那時候就已經對外宣布說台灣要在"},{"start":612.912,"end":636.371,"text":"布拉格捷克布拉格成立台灣第一座IC設計海外訓練基地那個時候講得非常的盛大那這件事情在賴清德總統今年6月接見捷克參議院的首席副議長德拉霍斯的時候也說在政府推動台捷任性計畫之下台灣第一個IC設計海外訓練基地要在布拉格落腳那當時講的"},{"start":638.838,"end":644.945,"text":"時間是9月要落成那因為今天已經是9月最後一天了好不好這個今天會落成嗎?"},{"start":646.127,"end":673.699,"text":"今天不會我跟委員報告因為捷克也是一個自由民主國家跟台灣一樣所以他們的執政聯盟其實多個政黨所組成的所以他們在內部針對我們跟我們合作的這個對象大學還有政府的單位其實還有一些不同多元的意見他們還在整合當中所以他們現在是他們不願意就對了"},{"start":674.019,"end":698.771,"text":"不是不願意他們還在整合意見他們有怎麼樣的意見要需要整合就是執行的單位跟政府的應該想權責單位之間他們還在溝通那最近又碰到捷克的選舉所以中間有一點這個那你覺得你有信心說這個東西會落成嗎現在你等於是說你就是行政流程的問題嗎"},{"start":699.991,"end":724.226,"text":"還有他們的政黨之間溝通政府溝通的問題所以確定會做這件事情只是9月沒完成只是可能會延緩那我們持續跟他們在討論那大概什麼時候他們現在因為選舉剛剛結束政府可能也會重組所以可能還是會再有一段時間我們並沒有說放棄啦並沒有放棄所以還是持續溝通大概什麼時候嘛因為你本來講9月嘛"},{"start":726.687,"end":727.388,"text":"主委請回謝謝葉元之"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:50:09 - 10:02:33","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"154943","gazette":{"lineno":310,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（9時50分）我要請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：吳主委好，我順著柯志恩委員問一下，因為你現在要編360億創一個南臺灣生態系推動方案，打造南臺灣成為人工智慧之島，我想問一下，那我們北臺灣呢？你現在是要把AI移到南臺灣去，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在只是把平臺放到南臺灣，但是服務的對象是全國的……"],["葉委員元之：但是產業，我講的是產業。"],["吳主任委員誠文：產業也是涵蓋全國。"],["葉委員元之：涵蓋全國，對於北臺灣你有什麼計畫嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為預算編列要逐年，不能夠一下編太多，所以北臺灣我們也會做、中臺灣也會做。"],["葉委員元之：怎麼做嘛？怎麼做？現在就是問你怎麼做？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是我們現在在南臺灣把平臺建起來以後，我們會循同樣的模式，因為要讓它成功，如果不成功，我們擴散也沒有用。"],["葉委員元之：所以一樣的模式，到時候會在中臺灣跟北臺灣做？"],["吳主任委員誠文：都會做。"],["葉委員元之：你編的是南臺灣五年的計畫，所以你預計什麼時候才會擴散到中臺灣跟北臺灣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們第一年執行以後，大概就有個眉目了。"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["吳主任委員誠文：而北臺灣，其實我們在行政院已經有通過一個桃竹苗大矽谷的方案，它的內容還沒有很具體，所以當我們在……"],["葉委員元之：內容還沒有很具體？所以是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為現在還在討論哪些區域要涵蓋進來嘛！"],["葉委員元之：所以有可能會在北臺灣，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：北臺灣當然也會有、一定會有的。"],["葉委員元之：就是說你也是要照顧一下我們北臺灣啦。"],["吳主任委員誠文：也會，當然會。"],["葉委員元之：好，希望不要太久啦！因為聽起來現在還沒有具體的計畫。"],["吳主任委員誠文：可是預算有限啦！"],["葉委員元之：我知道預算有限，但是因為我們來自北臺灣，當然希望能夠為北臺灣爭取，希望能夠快一點。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["葉委員元之：另外，就是我們的AI如果要成長的話，用電量會大增，您對於我們現在的電力有信心嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有信心。"],["葉委員元之：有信心喔？你跟你跟台電有研究過，是不是？有問過台電？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟台電……"],["葉委員元之：還是台電有告訴你說絕對供電無虞？因為之前郭智輝部長也講說臺灣要發展AI的話可能不排除用核電，但後來他又改口了啦。"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在……"],["葉委員元之：好啦，這個我不為難你，主委，總而言之，你站在產業的立場，我覺得如果行政院有機會溝通的話，也要注意他們電的問題啦。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葉委員元之：然後另外一個就是，因為我看到你在立法院詢答的時候很有信心說臺灣應該在三年內，我們的AI實力會超過日韓，但是立法院預算中心所提出來的報告指出，我們的AI排名跟超級電腦算力持續落後，而且根據國際排名，有關AI的準備度，112年世界排名是14名，現在下滑到19名，落後新加坡、南韓、日本跟中國大陸，所以如果你要在三年之內超過南韓，信心來自於哪裡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們已經開始在編列未來幾年的預算，會投入雲端運算機房設備的建置。"],["葉委員元之：所以之前是預算不足才落後，只要我們預算編下去，我們就會超前，是不是這個意思？"],["吳主任委員誠文：過去我們的重點可能比較注重在硬體。"],["葉委員元之：但是你會編預算，日本、韓國也會編預算。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們在運用上也要再加強。"],["葉委員元之：反正你有這個……"],["吳主任委員誠文：加強以後，我們會吸引產業界投入，所以不能只靠政府編列預算，產業界投入的速度會比政府還快。"],["葉委員元之：因為這個題目很大啦，我覺得主委講得稍微抽象一點，有機會的話，你應該把它具體一點再跟大家來討論。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["葉委員元之：因為你的目標很宏大，但是大家現在看起來不曉得你的具體作法在哪裡，如果說只有編預算，恐怕還是不夠啦。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們政府的綱要計畫方案已經編了。"],["葉委員元之：OK！"],["吳主任委員誠文：編了以後，接下來到年底之前就會有一些執行的真正計畫會出現，到時候會跟大家來報告。"],["葉委員元之：今天我們的專題報告叫做永續科研與政策溝通，我知道為什麼召委會排這個題目，當然是因為大概有600個學者針對國科會要把這幾個學門拆解、重組，表達非常的不滿，所以……"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會表示這個不存在，這個議題不存在，是誤會。"],["葉委員元之：不存在是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葉委員元之：但是，因為我看了國科會對於後來這600個學者連署的回應，實際上，我覺得也是有點實問虛答啦！因為國發會的講法是說沒有，你們的預算編列有增加，增加到48億，是嗎？今年48億，明年52億？"],["吳主任委員誠文：4.8億，是國科會本身。"],["葉委員元之：4.8億，好。"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是我們永續議題是一百多億。"],["葉委員元之：因為你的回應是4.8億啦！但是我覺得學者應該在乎的不是錢的問題，因為所有的研究需要長期的戰略跟長期的規劃，你忽然間把一些可能正在進行當中的學門，你把它拆解重組，對於他的研究就忽然打亂了……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，沒有要拆解啦，我知道我們學者都非常……"],["葉委員元之：學者是這樣覺得，所以這中間又出現很大的問題啊！所以今天召委排的是永續發展科研與政策溝通，這就很奇怪，你在這邊講說完全沒有這個問題，結果有600個學者連署反對你，那大家吃飽撐著沒事幹去做這個事嗎？不可能嘛！你一定是在溝通上出現了問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葉委員元之：如果你從來都沒有要去改變的話，那人家是夢到嗎？還是突然間有人造謠嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可能我……"],["葉委員元之：一定是你們在對外宣傳的部分透露出這樣的訊息，大家緊張，你可以說他超前部署，所以他做了這個動作，過程當中絕對有問題，你不可能說他們無緣無故去做這個動作，對不對？所以我覺得，主委，假設並沒有要拆解重組這件事情的話，那你應該去檢討，請問一下在政策溝通的過程當中出現什麼問題？我覺得這是今天我猜召委要排這個題目的原因，因為等一下召委可能會罵你啦，我就不多說話了。","但是我就想要繼續問，因為今天既然講到永續發展跟所謂的淨零碳排，我想問主委一個問題，我們都知道，其實中國大陸在這一塊是表現非常優秀，根據外媒的報導，譬如至少中國大陸在碳捕捉再利用或電動車或太陽能的面板都是世界第一。像美國，基本上大家都知道美中也是在競爭或者是在鬥爭，都可以啦，但對於氣候變遷這個議題，他們也想要跟中國大陸來合作。","可是我記得，主委你在剛上任的時候有提到，你說你不排斥跟中國的科技做交流，你說你也無意讓中國科技持續落後，只要在合乎法律的情況之下，國科會都會支持跟對岸來往，但是我們後來去看了一下現在兩岸的交流，我們就發現好像屬於一種幾乎停滯的狀態，左邊的圖是國際的交流，其實在國際的交流方面就已經有下滑的趨勢，你看，2024年核定的件數355件，已經比2017年幾乎腰斬。左邊是國際的部分，右邊是國科會補助邀請大陸地區暨香港、澳門科技人士來臺的申請核定表，到2024年只有3件，預算總共是只有19萬，等於是你大概只有補助19萬，我們在整個計畫大概編多少錢呢？整個計畫大概編了3億多，對照中國大陸補助19萬，其實它的比例是非常的低。","除了這個資料之外，還有另外我們也可以看到這個是補助兩岸學術科技交流的申請跟核定的件數，2024年申請18件，核定5件，不管是申請件數跟核定件數都有往下滑的趨勢。請教一下主委，現在到底兩岸的學術交流是遇到什麼問題？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們國科會當然是一直鼓勵我們的學術研究及我們的學者能夠跟全世界的學者交流往來才會進步，目前跟大陸方面這樣的交流是受限於大陸方面對臺灣不友善的行為所引起的。"],["葉委員元之：所以是我們邀，他不來，還是說因為我們覺得他不友善，所以我們連邀都沒邀？"],["吳主任委員誠文：即使我們邀他們，他們國內其實也有自己的限制存在，我們這邊也要透過不是只有國科會，還有行政院的機制在審查。"],["葉委員元之：對，因為我的了解又不是這樣，我的了解是說現在你要申請對岸過來學術交流，好像要專案審查。"],["吳主任委員誠文：要審查。"],["葉委員元之：而專案審查，陸委會那邊就會擋了嘛！我是覺得學術歸學術，政治歸政治啦！就是說，如果大家認為兩岸科技交流，特別是我剛剛講的在永續發展跟氣候變遷這一塊，連美國都要跟中國大陸交流，臺灣也可以秉持著科學交流的精神，對不對？把政治撇一邊啦！我記得這個也是主委你上任的一個理想，你就說只要在不違反法律的情況之下，兩岸科技多交流是好事。"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，我們只要法令允許……"],["葉委員元之：可是實際上，看得出來這個數字真的是下滑非常多，我覺得非常可惜！因為政治的關係讓科技無法持續的合作。","再來，我想跟主委問一個計畫的進度，之前國科會在前主委吳政忠那時候就已經對外宣布說，臺灣要在捷克布拉格成立臺灣第一座IC設計海外訓練基地，那個時候講得非常的盛大，這件事情在賴清德總統今年6月接見捷克參議院的首席副議長德拉霍斯的時候也說，在政府推動臺捷韌性計畫之下，臺灣第一個IC設計海外訓練基地要在布拉格落腳。當時講的時間是9月要落成，因為今天已經是9月最後一天了，今天會落成嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：今天不會。"],["葉委員元之：不會！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟委員報告，因為捷克也是一個自由民主國家，跟臺灣一樣，所以他們的執政聯盟其實是多個政黨所組成的，因此他們內部針對跟我們合作的對象──大學還有政府單位，其實他們還有一些不同、多元的意見在整合當中。"],["葉委員元之：所以現在是他們不願意就對了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是不願意，他們還在整合意見當中。"],["葉委員元之：整合意見？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們並沒有……"],["葉委員元之：他們有怎麼樣的意見需要整合？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是執行的單位跟政府的權責單位之間他們還在溝通，最近又碰到捷克的選舉，所以中間有一點……"],["葉委員元之：那你有信心這個東西會落成嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我有信心。"],["葉委員元之：現在你說是行政流程的問題嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：行政流程的問題……"],["葉委員元之：還有他們政黨之間、政府溝通的問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，碰到……"],["葉委員元之：所以確定會做這件事，只是9月沒辦法完成？"],["吳主任委員誠文：只是可能會延緩，我們持續跟他們討論。"],["葉委員元之：那大概什麼時候？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們現在因為選舉剛結束，政府可能也會重組，所以可能還要再一段時間，我們並沒有放棄，所以還是持續溝通，看看怎麼……"],["葉委員元之：大概什麼時候嘛？因為本來講9月，如果到年底我想大家應該可以接受啦，但如果又要拖個兩、三年，當初宣傳成那樣……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們也希望在今年可以……"],["葉委員元之：希望今年底可以完成。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是！"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：主委請回，謝謝葉元之委員。","再來，請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"age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Panda目前全案的進度為何?辦理的到什麼程度?"},{"start":52.288,"end":66.602,"text":"跟委員說明我們是5月收到這個案子那因為這個案子是會涉及到市場結構的改變在公平會審查會涉及到市場結構改變的案子所以進步到什麼程度目前請這個當事人補正還在補正階段"},{"start":71.967,"end":86.233,"text":"對還在補正階段你也還沒有決定說到底要不要核准文件要齊備才有沒有才判斷是不是我想這已經大家都多次討論本席比較擔心的是兩大外送平台的合併可能削弱這個市場競爭"},{"start":87.634,"end":87.854,"text":"﹚張嘉郡﹚"},{"start":106.321,"end":123.409,"text":"指財成本就已經佔了大概是六成左右那電租再加15%的話利潤大概就是25%現在的店家一定都會要漲價來因應這件事情那如果未來的環境更惡化吃虧的始終是消費者"},{"start":124.449,"end":146.078,"text":"包括說如何保障這15萬外送員工的權益我想這個是公平會也需要去考量在你同意或不同意之前你一定要去考量那包括這一點這點可能跟你比較有關係外送平臺都會收取月費跟年費主委你有加入外送平臺嗎"},{"start":147.418,"end":147.438,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":163.128,"end":182.418,"text":"會員的專屬折扣更便宜省更多但是目前有網友在網路發現同品項的會員跟非會員顯示的價格竟然不一樣反而沒有買會員的餐點會更便宜那這一點是不是應該你要介入的"},{"start":183.158,"end":187.482,"text":"委員我跟你說明你剛剛提到兩點這是不是不實廣告如果他有這個會員跟非會員他對會員有宣稱有什麼優惠沒有達到這個優惠的這個內容這有可能涉及到不實廣告所以本席現在就告訴你說你應該主動積極的比其他的比如說金牌銀牌或是銅牌或是其他非會員這個比較的落差跟本身沒有依據他的這個優惠的條件"},{"start":212.501,"end":228.947,"text":"這是不一樣的考量沒有我現在跟你講的你到底聽不聽得懂我在跟你講的是他已經說會員會更便宜但是會員沒有更便宜那這個要整個我的這個案子我有了解是吧那"},{"start":230.587,"end":231.508,"text":"所謂的便宜 所謂的便宜 所謂的便宜 所謂的便宜 所謂的便宜 所謂的便宜 所謂的便宜 所謂的便宜"},{"start":252.27,"end":254.371,"text":"免運費然後會員有專屬折扣啊假設同樣一個品項你非會員比會員便宜這樣子是不是不實廣告我們可以去了解為什麼你會這麼的沒有辦法判斷呢我真是無法理解"},{"start":272.723,"end":284.988,"text":"就是外送平台的廣告都是加入會員比較便宜那現在加入會員的人可能是被認為忠誠度比較高所以反而減少優惠這難道不是不實廣告嗎當然是餐點的價格阿如果假設他餐點點A點A餐點會員價跟非會員價非會員價"},{"start":301.662,"end":325.4,"text":"還比較便宜 這些費用包括餐廳的這個費用 外上員的費用 還有他的服務費 總體的那這樣子是不是不實廣告 我就問你 我假設這個是屬實這樣是不是不實廣告我們要看他廣告所謂比較便宜是哪一些 沒有你就是要 我假設問你說是用A品項去比較的話"},{"start":327.15,"end":332.131,"text":"假設是用餐點的品項去比較的話如果屬實這樣是不是不實廣告跟他講的跟他做的不一樣這樣是不是不實廣告我覺得你的頭腦有一點問題你完全不理解我現在在問你的是什麼我再跟你說"},{"start":352.058,"end":357.89,"text":"為什麼大家都會覺得公平會可有可無好像是沒有在作為好像是消極為什麼因為"},{"start":360.916,"end":366.479,"text":"在韓國我不曉得你有沒有看過這個例子韓國的公平會開罰了Coupon38億為什麼開罰因為他濫用濫用這個評論這個韓國的知名電商Coupon6月在韓國的公平交易委員會開罰他34億台幣的罰單為什麼"},{"start":385.447,"end":395.793,"text":"因為他們使用不公平的演算法外加大量動員員工去算寫這個商品評價藉此誤導消費者做選擇那我現在就想要想要問你啊主委主委我問你假設臺灣也是啊這個coupon在臺灣也可以看得到啊同樣一個例子你在臺灣的公平會你要不要作為"},{"start":414.124,"end":431.373,"text":"第一個就是說如果有不實廣告如果有違反我們公平交易法的規定我們當然要去處理所以本席現在就提醒你啊臺灣的coupon你要不要去積極調查coupon他在韓國的這個經營模式譬如說他商品來源一模一樣一模一樣這個虛偽的評論在臺灣也看得到也買得到這麼明顯的一個案例你也沒有要積極作為啊"},{"start":441.158,"end":454.81,"text":"如果有其他的電商平台也使用這種虛偽的購買心得是不是也違反我們的台灣公平法台灣公平交易法你要怎麼處理不是代言是他發動內部的員工去寫曝食的評論"},{"start":461.836,"end":490.487,"text":"在公平網有處罰的規定但是這個案子我們目前沒有看到我相信你目前沒有看到現在就是提醒你去看嘛現在提醒你去調查嘛難道是我要整理好幫你調查是嗎所以本席想要回到我之前說的話公平會要面對的是不斷進步的商業科技的挑戰公平會不能只靠吹哨者"},{"start":492.11,"end":514.428,"text":"你們要主動的對業者宣導甚至是主動的調查才能夠落實保障市場的秩序才可以變成守護這個市場正常運作的守護者否則你太被動啦你現在今天從早到晚講的都是這個交給司法這個交給什麼什麼調查那我再另外問你我再另外問你一個"},{"start":518.649,"end":522.411,"text":"不只是訂餐有會員比較便宜的問題叫車也有這種狀況根據媒體報導你的手機快沒電的時候叫車會比較貴因為透過數據的系統分析你的分析你的手機快沒電了所以你的需求比較急迫"},{"start":538.797,"end":558.601,"text":"因此抬高價錢這個並非是單純市場的供需原則而是做出分析比較之後覺得說這樣子你比較需要這個有沒有違反公平交易法我想跟委員說明在公平法對於限制競爭不公平競爭我們一定處理我現在就問你用科技獨取個資來決定價格這樣子是否違法"},{"start":566.84,"end":567.545,"text":"你好好思考謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:44:02 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09:53:34","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154941","gazette":{"lineno":184,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（9時44分）主席，我想請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["張委員嘉郡：李主委早安。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早安。"],["張委員嘉郡：整個委員會，每一個委員都希望你有積極作為，我也很好奇，你心目中是不是覺得公平會其實沒有那麼重要，就是一個可有可無的單位？"],["李主任委員鎂：非常重要，我們在扮演維護競爭秩序，是一個非常重要的機關。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，所以為什麼大家希望你有積極作為的時候，你這麼消極，這麼被動呢？本席首先問你，Uber在今年5月14日已經宣布收購臺灣的foodpanda，目前全案的進度為何，辦理到什麼程度？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，我們是5月收到這個案子，因為這個案子會涉及到市場結構的改變，在公平會審查會涉及到市場結構改變的案子會非常慎重。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以進度到什麼程度？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前請當事人補正，還在補正階段。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以還在補正階段。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：你也還沒有決定到底要不要核准？"],["李主任委員鎂：文件要齊備才判斷是不是核准。"],["張委員嘉郡：這個大家都已經多次討論，本席比較擔心的是，兩大外送平臺的合併可能削弱市場競爭，而且會影響到餐飲業者的權利和外送員的勞動待遇，我想這一點主委一定要仔細考量。因為兩大外送平臺現行的抽成大概是32%至38%之間，餐飲業者人事成本、食材成本就已經占了大概六成左右，店租再加15%的話，利潤大概就是25%，現在的店家一定都會以漲價來因應這件事情，如果未來的環境更惡化，吃虧的始終是消費者。包括如何保障這15萬名外送員工的權益，我想這是公平會也需要考量的，在你同意或不同意之前，你一定要去考量。","包括這一點，這一點可能跟你比較有關係，外送平臺都會收取月費跟年費，主委有加入外送平臺嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我本身沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：假設你有的話，或者是你們公平會有職員有的話，你可以好好請教他一下，都會宣稱加入會員可以讓消費者享有免運優惠，享有會員專屬折扣，更便宜、省更多。但是目前有網友在網路發現，同品項的會員跟非會員顯示的價格竟然不一樣，反而沒有買會員的餐點會更便宜，這一點是不是應該你要介入的？這是不是不實廣告？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，我跟你說明，你剛剛提到兩點……"],["張委員嘉郡：這是不是不實廣告？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果它有會員跟非會員，它對於會員宣稱有什麼優惠，沒有達到這個優惠的內容，這有可能涉及到不實廣告……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，所以本席現在就告訴你，你應該主動積極地……"],["李主任委員鎂：但是它比其他的，譬如金牌、銀牌或是銅牌，或是其他非會員，這個比較的落差跟本身沒有依據它的這個優惠的條件，這是不一樣的考量。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有，我現在跟你講的，你到底聽不聽得懂？我在跟你講的是，它已經說會員會更便宜，但是會員沒有更便宜。"],["李主任委員鎂：這個要整個……這個案子我有了解。"],["張委員嘉郡：是吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：我有了解，那所謂的便宜……"],["張委員嘉郡：這樣是不是不實廣告？"],["李主任委員鎂：所謂的便宜……"],["張委員嘉郡：這樣是不是不實廣告？"],["李主任委員鎂：所謂的便宜，我們要進一步去了解是指哪一方面，是不是不實……"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是不實廣告嘛？我問你啊！我問你，它告訴你說加入會員會更便宜，但事實上沒有更便宜，這樣是不是不實廣告？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要看更便宜是指哪些面向，是運費還是餐點費用。"],["張委員嘉郡：它講得非常清楚，免運費，然後會員有專屬折扣。假設同樣一個品項，非會員比會員便宜，這樣子是不是不實廣告？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，是不是不實廣告，我們可以去了解……"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊！你要主動積極。"],["李主任委員鎂：但是沒有辦法馬上說是不實廣告。"],["張委員嘉郡：為什麼你會這麼地沒有辦法判斷呢？我真是無法理解。就是外送平臺的廣告都是加入會員比較便宜，現在加入會員的人可能是被認為忠誠度比較高，反而減少優惠，這難道不是不實廣告嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們應該要去了解它所謂的比較便宜是指哪一些面向，這個要進行了解才能夠去評估。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然是餐點的價格，假設他點A餐點，會員價跟非會員價，非會員價還比較低，還比較便宜，這樣……"],["李主任委員鎂：這些費用包括餐廳的費用……"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：包括外送員的費用……"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：還有它的服務費，還有這個……"],["張委員嘉郡：總體的、總體的。這樣子是不是不實廣告？"],["李主任委員鎂：那總體……"],["張委員嘉郡：我就問你，我假設這個是屬實，這樣是不是不實廣告？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要看它廣告所謂比較便宜是哪一些，所以這是需要去調查的"],["張委員嘉郡：我假設問你，是用A品項去比較的話，假設是用餐點的品項去比較的話，如果屬實，這樣是不是不實廣告？"],["李主任委員鎂：餐點費……"],["張委員嘉郡：它講的跟它做的不一樣，這樣是不是不實廣告？"],["李主任委員鎂：我還是要跟委員說明，我們必須就它講的是什麼具體的內容，然後……"],["張委員嘉郡：我覺得你的頭腦有一點問題，你完全不理解我現在在問你的是什麼。"],["李主任委員鎂：我舉例說……"],["張委員嘉郡：我再跟你說，為什麼大家都會覺得公平會可有可無，好像是沒有在作為，好像是消極，為什麼？因為在韓國，我不曉得你有沒有看過這個例子，韓國的公平會開罰了Coupang 38億，為什麼開罰？因為它濫用評論。韓國的知名電商Coupang，在6月韓國的公平交易委員會開罰它34億臺幣的罰單，為什麼？因為他們使用不公平的演算法，外加大量動員員工去撰寫商品評價，藉此誤導消費者做選擇。那我現在就想要問你，主委，我問你，臺灣也是，Coupang在臺灣也可以看得到。同樣一個例子，在臺灣的公平會，你要不要作為？"],["李主任委員鎂：第一個，如果有不實廣告，如果有違反我們公平交易法的規定，我們當然要去處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊！所以本席現在就提醒你，臺灣的Coupang，你要不要去積極調查？"],["李主任委員鎂：Coupang在韓國的這個經營模式，譬如它商品來源是買斷……"],["張委員嘉郡：一模一樣。"],["李主任委員鎂：還是非買斷……"],["張委員嘉郡：一模一樣。"],["李主任委員鎂：會有不一樣的情境。"],["張委員嘉郡：這個虛偽的評論在臺灣也看得到，也買得到，這麼明顯的一個案例，你也沒有要積極作為啊！如果有其他的電商平臺也使用這種虛偽的購買心得，是不是也違反我們臺灣的公平交易法？你要怎麼處理？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果有人出來代言，或者是網紅，或者部落客在……"],["張委員嘉郡：不是代言，是他發動內部員工去寫不實的評論。"],["李主任委員鎂：這個在公平法有處罰的規定……"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：但是這個案子……"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是？我相信……"],["李主任委員鎂：我們目前沒有看到Coupang有這個情形。"],["張委員嘉郡：你目前沒有看到，現在就是提醒你去看嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這個我們來注意。"],["張委員嘉郡：現在提醒你去調查嘛！難道是我要整理好幫你調查嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會來注意這個情形。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以本席想要回到我之前說的話，公平會要面對的是不斷進步的商業科技的挑戰，公平會不能只靠吹哨者，你們要主動地對業者宣導，甚至是主動地調查，才能夠落實保障市場的秩序，才可以變成守護市場正常運作的守護者，否則你太被動了，你今天從早到晚講的都是：這個交給司法、這個交給什麼什麼調查……"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有，我們自己依職權調查的案子也很多……"],["張委員嘉郡：我再另外問你一個，不只是訂餐有會員比較便宜的問題，叫車也有這種狀況，根據媒體報導，你的手機快沒電的時候，叫車會比較貴，因為透過數據的系統分析，你的手機快沒電了，所以你的需求比較急迫，因此抬高價錢，這個並非是單純市場的供需原則，而是做出分析比較之後覺得說，這樣子你比較需要。這個有沒有違反公平交易法？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想跟委員說明，在公平法對於限制競爭、不公平競爭，我們一定處理，所以有些行為，我們會判斷是消費糾紛還是不公平競爭……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在就問你，用科技讀取個資來決定價格，這樣子是否違法？你好好思考，謝謝。"],["李主任委員鎂：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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各位我想我很清楚這個范委員為什麼要排這個因為我們同樣來自學界所以當有600個這個學者要連署那這就是知識體大的一件事情那我們也知道我們長期也都申請過科會我們當然都申請人文人文說實在你看評比起來我真的覺得還蠻還蠻覺得蠻心酸的我們家總的預算來說人文處大概處長有沒有在五十幾億然後我們自然處我現在幫你講話你可以坐下來沒有問題"},{"start":37.322,"end":40.084,"text":"自然處60幾億工程處80幾億跟我們台灣整個產業趨勢有絕對的關聯不過今天你剛回應了前面兩個委員的一些問題所以我也不再多贅述但是呢這個"},{"start":53.611,"end":71.193,"text":"主委也不用那麼樣無奈。我說實在的今天你剛剛回答第一位紅委員的問題的時候你說可能是就是有一些行政人員的變動或者在內部的做一些的討論造成這麼渲染大波但是主委我說實在的那表示國科會裡面整個的行政系統太脆弱"},{"start":71.954,"end":77.12,"text":"你脆弱到一件事情你要做一點的調整你就引發這麼大的這個部分然後你可以透過這樣子滾雪球的方法這麼多人聽到這樣的訊息這是學者專家學者專家是不是應該就做一個求證如果不求證的話你卻又泛遊這個部分來你的回應跟學者的連署基本上是一個很大的落差的"},{"start":91.155,"end":91.255,"text":"好,我們會檢討"},{"start":111.189,"end":126.404,"text":"好 這個還是有多一點的無奈但是我還是必須告訴主委有很多人跟我們來反映國科會目前為止其實沒有太大的一個溝通的一個做法學界是基本上是非常不滿的你不要看這個學界的這個整併不管它是不是一個事實即使總金額不變"},{"start":128.546,"end":155.356,"text":"每一個的專長在這個學門的分配當中你不要說什麼跨領域需要做一些的整合每一個在細節細分到這個學科你也知道已經細分到有稍微對於他們未來研究有任何的影響他們大家都會跳腳所以這個部分裡面真的是勸主委千萬不要再從上到下你要建立一個SOP然後我也很擔心你未來可能要調整學門可能你有一些的需求因為這件事件之後呢讓你完全裹足不前你看"},{"start":155.856,"end":155.896,"text":"謝謝科委員謝謝"},{"start":177.341,"end":183.603,"text":"但是我們人文處是不是金費可以多一點,我說實在的,身體的人真的是不少,然後竟然是差工程,工程處差了30億這項花嗎?有啦,我們人文處金費也是逐年在增加但是差了工程處還是30億,30億,好不好?"},{"start":193.126,"end":218.214,"text":"公眾處因為學界的人數最多啦沒錯啦但是還是一樣人文處的不是不是我們我們人也很多只會我們拿到的比例都比較少別人都是上千萬的因為公眾處還有很多的設備我當然知道但是還是一句話我們如果從這個經費來看的話還是要多多講一下話來我們來看一下基本上這整個都還是先到整個人才上面一個培育你104你的114裡面你這科發基金裡面你大概編列了57億"},{"start":219.895,"end":234.983,"text":"但是呢然後呢這些的名詞我說實在我每次看到國科會提出的名詞我都要追憶以前有千里馬計畫以前有什麼樣的東西然後現在又有一個跨領域然後2030學者養成哇塞這個名詞非常的多我們一一來檢視一下我們先看下一頁審計部的審核報告裏面啊抱歉跨領域的整合計畫當中你逐年減少而且連續兩年你的質詢率未達五成欸"},{"start":246.088,"end":254.693,"text":"這未達五成欸主委這你要不要稍微稍微說一下為什麼連續兩年不僅是你核定的補助的案件逐年減少而且呢你的達成率是未達五成的喔這個部分呢難道這個審計部會提出來我等一下給你機會一併來說明喔下面一個你看我調出了從98到113年你看你有那麼多的人才講座教授、課座教授、國科會講座"},{"start":275.043,"end":275.223,"text":"主委 這概念中﹖"},{"start":304.099,"end":309.862,"text":"你花了這麼多錢然後來做這樣的事情卻有14%的人是提早離職的我再告訴你一個還蠻嚴重的就是你看看102到110 10年我們看一個計劃10年其實很準的你有178位然後這些所謂博士級的研究人員他是連續的補助10到22次這代表什麼"},{"start":329.511,"end":342.317,"text":"你看他有123位不斷的計劃結束完就是他是約聘嘛他都不是full time的job他是約聘然後計劃結束完之後呢他再來簽約再來簽約再來簽約然後重複的人其實是非常的多主委你應該知道嘛如果你都讓他用約聘然後這個計劃完再簽約他永遠都是在這個position所以你覺得這對高階科研的人才幫助有幫助嗎"},{"start":355.922,"end":370.566,"text":"我們當然是希望我們的各大學在聘用人才的時候盡量用正職啦但是但是你看你這些計畫你所培養這些人就是一個計畫3年5年結束之後再來給他簽約他永遠就在這個處在這個狀況當中但是我們現在因為各大學的教育不要是大學你的產業也沒有啊所以我只是告訴你"},{"start":377.888,"end":396.645,"text":"但是學界離職的大部分是到產業去了因為產業需求人力的確其實我們看到的投入產業跟學界任職找到正職的這是我所看到的我包括產業界表示這些人就是不斷的在重複的申請你們的這個延攬的補助計畫他永遠在延攬補助計畫但是從學界離開以後"},{"start":399.528,"end":404.132,"text":"我想指這178個你去看這178個這是數據我不要講結的這178個你們專門補助的所以我還是要特別提到這個部分來說然後呢國會過去只要遇到成效不佳可能你才剛上任國會只要過去這個成效不佳的時候呢你們就開始都會說這是我們我們要來精進我們的執行率我們要精進執行率結果呢你的做法是什麼"},{"start":423.109,"end":426.714,"text":"重新調整經費的配比重新讓計劃換一個名詞看起來好像成效比較高了但是呢我還是要說這對我們的整個的科研真的是沒有太大的幫助所以我還是要誠心的提出這樣的一個呼籲否則你再變太多的錢"},{"start":438.388,"end":446.67,"text":"你沒有給他們一個這樣的空間我說實在每個人就是用這個約聘的方法補助完再來補助再補一輩子做這樣的事情說實在國會這樣的花錢到底有沒有效我就要請這個主委要好好的思考一下來我們接下來最後來看一下我也看到你們有這個大南方產業的生態系我覺得很好只要看到南方我們都很願意但是你看看05你要投資360億我比較好奇是鏈場域170億當中你說要結合我們這個S狼帶"},{"start":466.914,"end":467.094,"text":"我可不可以問一下?"},{"start":484.206,"end":484.266,"text":"主席"},{"start":499.206,"end":499.286,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":529.867,"end":531.389,"text":"報告委員我們現在是以南部從嘉義以南科學園區所在的這個範圍主要是技術體系我們希望把需求端的產業"},{"start":546.186,"end":547.726,"text":"每個學校所有聽到這個東西的話每個學校上都來問你可不可以告訴我一個標準我電話接不完欸"},{"start":564.171,"end":590.297,"text":"高雄參旅學校有沒有?你要創新產業有沒有高雄參旅?都有都有我們其實所有學校我們都歡迎我們沒有B學校但是所有學校願意你知道高雄幾所技職學校嗎?主委你知道嗎?我們指的不是高職端是大專我們不只有15間好不好我們10所技職教育大學10所技術型高中還有很多來下面還有什麼?"},{"start":592.43,"end":601.517,"text":"就是科大跟專科學校好啦那我就發個函啦因為很多人問我我就問到完全不行了然後我就發個函給你們來你看一下你們怎麼回覆我我跟科委員報告你先聽我講嘛欸主委你說15間學院是會表達南部所具備的科技人才供給能量並非已經確定參與本案的學校名單如果你是這樣的話請你以後不要講15座好不好"},{"start":616.207,"end":616.808,"text":"對不起對不起我們要改善我們是歡迎所有的技職到專業校所以你會有一個標準"},{"start":630.834,"end":655.711,"text":"沒有,沒有,沒有,我們政案的時候會有應用的這個類別,那會有...所以不是只有15間?不是,不是,所有的技專院校我們都歡迎所以下次新聞稿裡面的部分裡面,你不曉得你們隨便一個經費,大家都很期望能夠獲得這樣的一個補助所以呢你就指名15間,然後我們根本不指這些學校,會造成一個非常大的部分然後你的回應也表達我說實在的,你們並沒有準備好"},{"start":656.852,"end":658.194,"text":"我覺得這個宣傳跟這個實際的作為我覺得這個跟我們的理解是有一個很大的一個落差了"},{"start":674.894,"end":685.945,"text":"最後一個就是有關於你們有一個南科追夢的計畫我還是要特別提醒你們全部都往台北去做一個而且就看得出來你們完全就是希望能夠有到能夠做一個南漂兩部曲我給予肯定鼓勵北部的優秀青年能夠到南下來追夢但是我說實在的"},{"start":693.933,"end":711.817,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":711.897,"end":731.89,"text":"我們這些學校都歡迎我們一直都有跟他們在合作你們都有在合作問題是你們這個又是一個大的宣傳告訴我裡面就是積極的去北上徵尋人才然後呢對於南部這些學校來說的話到底什麼時候可以來把這樣的同樣北部這麼盛大的狀況裡面同時通通在我在南部裡面好好的辦大一場"},{"start":732.671,"end":743.314,"text":"我們真的是在努力第一南部的人才可以留在南部工作第二我們也歡迎北漂人才回來我請吳主委你協調南科管理區在今年計畫崛起之前或者明年可以到高雄到南部來辦真正的讓更多人願意到南部來不要讓北跟南互作一個失衡所以這是你承諾的要到這個部分來做這樣的一個處理好不好"},{"start":757.958,"end":758.398,"text":"下一位我們請葉元芝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:37:01 - 09:50:04","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","id":"154940","gazette":{"lineno":241,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時37分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請吳主委？"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：主委，我想我很清楚范委員為什麼要排這個，因為我們同樣來自學界，所以當有600個學者連署，這是茲事體大的一件事情。我們也知道長期以來我們想要申請國科會，我們當然就會去申請人文，人文說實在的，你看評比起來，我真的覺得還滿心酸的，我們以總的預算來說，人文處大概是，處長有沒有在？大概是五十幾億，然後自然處的部分，我在幫你講話，你可以坐下來沒有問題。自然處大概是六十幾億，當然最高的就是工程處，大概八十幾億，這大概跟我們臺灣整個產業趨勢有絕對的關聯。不過，今天你剛剛回應前面兩個委員的一些問題，所以我也不再多贅述，但是主委也不用那麼無奈，我說實在的，今天你剛剛回答第一位洪委員問題的時候，你說可能就是有一些行政人員的變動，或者在內部做一些討論，造成這麼軒然大波，但是主委，我說實在的，那表示國科會裡面，整個行政系統太脆弱，脆弱到一件事情，光你要做一點點的調整，就引發這麼大的部分，然後你可以透過這樣子滾雪球的方法，這麼多人聽到這樣的訊息，這是學者專家耶，學者專家是不是應該就做一個求證？如果不求證的話，你卻又放由這個部分，你的回應跟學者的連署基本上是個很大的落差，這才是你應該要檢討的問題！不是你個人的問題，而是你從頭到尾，你們的組織系統到底發生什麼問題？一個你所謂的誤會，一個你所謂的留言，竟然可以串成這麼大的一個600位學者來做連署，難道國科會不應該稍微做一些脈絡上的檢討嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們會檢討。"],["柯委員志恩：這個還是有多一點的無奈！但是我還是必須告訴主委，有很多人跟我們來反映，國科會目前為止，其實沒有太大的一個溝通的作法，學界基本上是非常不滿的，你不要看學界的這個整併，不管它是不是事實，即使總金額不變，光是每一個人的專長，在這個學門的分配當中，你不要說什麼跨領域需要做一些整合，每一個人再細節、細分到這個學科，你也知道已經細分到有稍微對於他們未來的研究有任何的影響，他們大家都會跳腳，所以這個部分裡面真的是勸主委千萬不要再從上到下，你要建立一個SOP。然後我也很擔心你未來可能要調整學門，可能你有一些需求，因為這件事件之後，讓你完全裹足不前。你看一點小小的人事上面一個小變動，還不是一個經費的變動，照你的說法，就會造成這樣大跳腳，所以主委，SOP，還有從下而上找這些學者專家公開座談，請大家澈底，否則這件事情光是600個人的連署都嚇死人了，好不好？主委，給你一個良心的建議。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝柯委員。"],["柯委員志恩：同樣是來自學界的建議。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：但是我們人文處是不是經費給多一點，我說實在的，申請的人真的是不少，然後竟然是和工程處差了30億，這像話嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有啦！我們人文處的經費也是逐年在增加。"],["柯委員志恩：但工程處還是差了30億！還是一樣……"],["吳主任委員誠文：工程處是因為學界的人數最多。"],["柯委員志恩：好，沒錯啦！但還是一樣。人文處的不是……我們人也很多，只是我們拿到的比例都比較少，別人都是上千萬的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為工程處還有很多的設備……"],["柯委員志恩：我當然知道，但還是一句話，如果從這個經費來看的話，我們還是要多多講一下話。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：我們來看一下，基本上，這整個都還是牽涉到人才上面的培育。114年的科發基金大概編列了57億，但是我說實在，每次看到國科會提出的這些名詞，我都要追憶以前有千里馬計畫、以前有什麼樣的東西，現在又有「跨領域」、「2030學者養成」，名詞非常的多，我們一一來檢視一下。審計部審核報告裡面在跨領域整合計畫當中，你逐年減少，而且連續兩年，你的執行率未達五成。主委，你要不要稍微說一下？為什麼連續兩年，不僅是你核定的補助案件逐年減少，而且你的達成率是未達五成？這個部分難怪審計部會提出來，我等一下給你機會一併來說明。我調出了從98到113年的資料，你有那麼多的人才，包括講座教授、客座教授、國科會講座，你看看明顯呈現非常大降幅的趨勢。在人才培育上面，你不斷信誓旦旦告訴我們，你們是努力在做，可是數據會說話，而且你看這當中，十年來參與的人明顯下降，而且留在臺灣參與的人數竟然有14%是提早離開的。主委，這很嚴重！你花了這麼多錢來做這樣的事情，卻有14%的人是提早離職的。我再告訴你一個還蠻嚴重的，你看看102到112年，我們看一個計畫10年其實很準的，有178位所謂博士級的研究人員連續受補助10到22次，這代表什麼？還有123位不斷的……因為他是約聘，都不是full-time job，然後計畫結束完之後，再來簽約、再來簽約、再來簽約，重複的人其實非常的多。主委，你應該知道吧？如果都讓他用約聘，然後計畫結束完再簽約，他永遠都是在這個position，所以你覺得這對高階科研的人才有幫助嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然期望各大學在聘用人才的時候儘量用正職，但是……"],["柯委員志恩：你看這些計畫所培養的這些人，就是計畫3年、5年結束之後，再來給他簽約，他永遠就處在這個狀況當中。"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是我們現在因為各大學的教職……"],["柯委員志恩：不光是大學，產業也沒有，所以我只是告訴你……"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是學界離職的大部分是到產業去了，因為產業需求人力的確……"],["柯委員志恩：投入產業跟學界任職、找到正職的，這是我所看到的，包括產業界，表示這些人就是不斷重複申請你們的延攬補助計畫，他永遠在延攬補助計畫……"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是從學界離開以後……"],["柯委員志恩：我要指的是這178個，你去看這178個，這是數據，我不要講別的，就這178個你們專門補助的，所以我還是要特別提出這個部分。雖然你才剛上任，國科會過去只要遇到成效不佳的時候，就會開始說要來精進你們的執行率，結果你們的作法是什麼？重新調整經費的配比、重新讓計畫換名詞，看起來好像成效比較高了，但我還是要說，這對整個科研真的是沒有太大的幫助，所以我還是要誠心的提出這樣的呼籲。否則編再多的錢，卻沒有給他們這樣的空間，我說實在的，每個人就是用約聘的方法，補助完再來補助，一輩子做這樣的事情。說實在，國科會這樣花錢到底有沒有效，我要請主委好好思考一下。","接下來，我也看到你們有大南方產業生態系，我覺得很好，只要看到南方，我們都很願意，但是你看看五年要投資360億，我比較好奇的是在「鏈場域」170億當中，你說要結合S廊帶，南科具有非常大的主導位置，因為這裡面不管是屏東、橋頭，還是楠梓，起碼四個裡面就有兩個在高雄，而且要形成很大的AI產業鏈。這170億，你要做什麼？我可不可以問一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實跟前面的委員提問有關，就是我們要把現在硬體的實力，擴散到可以有軟體的實力，也就是在應用方面我們會擴散……"],["柯委員志恩：好啦！你們準備好了沒有？你要擴散，我同意，因為臺灣以後就是要用AI來揚名國際。問題是國科會編出來的，我們一一來看。我想主委可能要更清楚地了解，這邊有一個部分是要「引人才」，你的新聞稿裡面特別講出來是15個學校。你的新聞稿講得很大，所以我也很注意，哪15所學校？你說要跟南部的15所技職學校合作，包括5,400個老師、16萬個同學，我看起來很高興。到底15間學校是怎麼估出來的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在是以南部，從嘉義以南、科學園區所在的這個範圍……"],["柯委員志恩：15個的標準是什麼？你們上面寫了15這麼多。"],["吳主任委員誠文：主要是技職體系，我們希望把需求端的產業……"],["柯委員志恩：我同意技職體系，問題是你講得出15間技職學校，南部技職體系就不只15間，光高雄就比這個數字還多，15間怎麼出來的？標準在哪裡？所有聽到這個東西的每個學校校長都來問，你可不可以告訴我標準？因為我電話接不完！高雄餐旅學校有沒有？你要創新產業，有沒有高雄餐旅？"],["吳主任委員誠文：都有。其實所有學校我們都歡迎，我們沒有逼學校，但是所有學校願意……"],["柯委員志恩：你知道高雄有幾所技職學校嗎？主委，你知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們指的不是高職端，是大專……"],["柯委員志恩：我們不只有15間，好不好？我們有10所技職教育大學、17所技術型高中，還有很多。"],["吳主任委員誠文：還有專科……"],["柯委員志恩：還有什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是科大跟專科學校。"],["柯委員志恩：好，那我就發個函，因為很多人問我，我就被問到完全不行了。我就發個函給你們，你看一下你們怎麼回復我。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟柯委員報告……"],["柯委員志恩：你先聽我講完。主委，你說15間，此為表達南部所具備的科技人才供給能量，並非已經確定參與本案的學校名單，如果是這樣的話，請你以後不要講15所，好不好？不然每個人都在想是不是花落誰家，到底會不會得到這個補助、要提什麼計畫？拜託一下，這樣增加我們很多困擾。"],["吳主任委員誠文：對不起！對不起！我們要改善，我們歡迎所有的技職大專院校都來參與。"],["柯委員志恩：所以你會有個標準？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有。我們徵案的時候會有應用的類別，那會……"],["柯委員志恩：所以不是只有15間？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是。所有的技專院校我們都歡迎。"],["柯委員志恩：你不曉得你們新聞稿裡隨便一個經費，大家都很期望能夠獲得這樣的補助，你就指名15間，但根本不只有這些學校，會造成非常大的困擾。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["柯委員志恩：我說實在的，你的回應也表達你們並沒有準備好。這種回應是表達完全沒有準備好的概念。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為現在正在準備當中，計畫是明年開始，所以我們現在……"],["柯委員志恩：你新聞稿講得這麼大，好像一副大家都已經準備要上陣了一樣，所以我覺得這個宣傳與實際的作為跟我們的理解有很大的落差。","最後，有關南科追夢計畫，我還是要特別提醒，你們全部都往臺北去做，而且看得出來你們完全就是希望能夠做南漂兩部曲。鼓勵北部的優秀青年能夠南下來追夢，我給予肯定，但是我說實在的，能夠吸引優秀年輕人到南科來工作是很好，但是你幹嘛要捨近求遠？每次要做任何的計畫，全部都往臺北招募人才過來，為什麼不要在在地的就做這樣的人才招募計畫呢？這裡面有這麼多的學校，怎麼樣？這些學校你都覺得不太能夠加入，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這些學校我們都歡迎，我們一直都有跟他們在合作。"],["柯委員志恩：你們都有在合作，問題是這又是一個大宣傳來告訴我積極地北上徵詢人才，對於南部這些學校來說，到底什麼時候可以把北部這麼盛大的狀況同樣在南部好好大辦一場？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們真的是在努力。第一，南部的人才可以留在南部工作……"],["柯委員志恩：當然。"],["吳主任委員誠文：第二，我們也歡迎北漂人才回來。"],["柯委員志恩：我請吳主委協調南科管理局，在今年計畫截止之前或者明年可以到高雄、到南部來辦，真正地讓更多人願意到南部來，沒有必要讓北跟南失衡。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒問題。"],["柯委員志恩：所以這是你承諾的，要照這個部分來做這樣的處理，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒問題。"],["柯委員志恩：不要捨近求遠，臺灣有很多的科技人才，不是只有北部有，南部其實已經培養出非常的多了，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，沒問題，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：最後我要求170億鏈場域計畫裡面的細節，你還是要跟本席提出一份更詳細的計畫，交給我辦公室，好不好？我想要澈底了解一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝柯志恩委員。吳主委，請回。","下一位請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:12:20","end_time":"2024-09-30T09:43:51+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154939","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","duration":740,"start_time":"2024-09-30T09:31:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b6a6995608796e21d10639eb4554d3b099b341893f7f7175facf5f62b65bb2c8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":1.6340937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.54034375,"end":9.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.36284375,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.93096875,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.348468750000002,"end":25.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.79471875,"end":37.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.46784375,"end":43.095968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.500968750000006,"end":49.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.35659375,"end":52.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.689718750000004,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.43534375,"end":65.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.33721875,"end":66.56909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.05846875,"end":160.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.12596875,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.56971875,"end":90.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.54596875000001,"end":162.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.63846875000002,"end":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主委主委長主委我想請教你現在民怨之首是什麼民怨最高的是什麼事件"},{"start":28.498,"end":37.763,"text":"公平會也是政府機關的一環政府應該全力的來打詐這件事情那我想請教一下公平會作為打詐的事情有什麼樣的角色可以來做"},{"start":40.025,"end":66.267,"text":"打炸是整個政府機關都要動起來去改善它去阻止它那所以在行政院有一個跨部會小組公平會也是其中的一員公平會有什麼樣的作為?更積極的作為來做嗎?譬如說我們負責如何去試炸、阻炸這一部分我們也應該要責無旁貸主委你認為公平會有沒有善盡到打炸跟整個防炸這樣的工作?有沒有善盡盡了最大的努力?我們有盡努力在"},{"start":67.228,"end":76.759,"text":"我希望盡了最大努力我認為公平有努力但是我認為還有空間我們來看一下公平會在查處開罰這個當然是不實廣告包括不實的廣告跟不實網路廣告從110年的63件到110年的81、92到今年1到8月的51"},{"start":86.209,"end":105.122,"text":"大概是這樣的規模一樣不會超過百件那網路廣告一樣大概也是不到百件從57到72到87到目前今年1到8月49相較於我們來看一下1到3月份刑事警察局的通報的3萬4千零55件的詐騙案"},{"start":109.285,"end":133.803,"text":"裏面如果這是3個月而已但如果你回推回來大概一年有12萬件12萬件以公平會來查處的話大概不到0.1%我的意思是說有沒有各單位都窮盡了各種方法盡了最大努力防詐我認為公平會在不實廣告裏面有你很大的空間你的這個報告裏面也提到第5點查實不實廣告"},{"start":134.924,"end":162.123,"text":"對我來說 除了查實不實廣告外 詐騙其實是更嚴重的一個不實廣告他 連空的 連什麼都沒有 就可以去給你做不實 給你詐騙所以我認為其實在公平交易法裡面 有給予公平會足夠的空間 去來做打詐這樣的動作就是你不要擔憂 你打了他之後 他要不要來宿院 他要不要來那個 那是另外一件事情但是你連打都不打的時候 這些的詐騙就非常的猖獗主委委員會同這樣的看法"},{"start":162.874,"end":187.143,"text":"我認同要各部會看到這個有詐欺的形式都要去處理所以我們在監控這個不時廣告的過程主委先不要提到各部會去啦公平會有沒有善盡你所有的方法來打詐我想沒有最好只有更好然後我們去我們可以有在努力的空間不敢說百分之百已經做到最好但是這個打詐這件事情是各部會都要通過"},{"start":187.563,"end":205.229,"text":"現在有很多的網路的現在最多的就是投資詐騙最多了網路的甚至謝金河甚至許貴雅常常都得到他們不斷的澄清我沒有我沒有推薦大家投資但這些東西不斷的在臉書在很多的平台上不斷被投放在這件事情上面公平會員有沒有角色可以做處理"},{"start":205.649,"end":219.219,"text":"我想對這個廣告他如果內容不實影響交易自信公平法21條一定可以處理所以這個其實可以嗎一定是不實嗎因為他當事人都已經澄清我沒有做這樣的宣傳鼓勵大家來買這支股票鼓勵大家買頭所以其實你覺得這是比不實更嚴重的一個狀況下當然"},{"start":224.663,"end":248.479,"text":"如果涉及到詐欺那已經刑事犯罪了 刑事的犯罪他的處罰我只是講的是公平會在你的角色上你有沒有辦法去做處理我認為公平會是有角色可以做處理因為我講過了這是比不死更嚴重的不死的問題他是用空的去賣的賣的是一個空的東西但是你們自我限縮覺得這是詐騙所以詐騙歸速發布詐騙歸這個警政署"},{"start":252.822,"end":273.581,"text":"麻煩了也完全難處理我的意思是說如果你有辦法給予開罰的時候因為我們對於這個實名制之後開罰的時候你開罰得到他罰了之後他們才會有壓力之後這件事情才會銷聲匿跡你一定要從源頭去管治掉這件事情要不然一年光這樣的案件網路的違法的投資廣告就12萬件一年就12萬件而你們開罰不到100件如果你開罰個"},{"start":276.403,"end":298.589,"text":"五千件一萬件你只要開發五千件一萬件他們覺得有相當大的壓力我跟你講下個月隔個月之後馬上少一半以上甚至於更低因為你政府有沒有用你善盡你的你剛也提到了公平交易法裡面的第21條有空間我們來看一下公平交易法第21條有延達臉書跟購物網站不實廣告的你們對MOMO也開發過"},{"start":300.009,"end":308.951,"text":"只要就商品的相關及足以影響交易決定的虛偽不實跟引人錯誤的表示開罰10萬9月12號臉書也開罰了5萬9月10號的這個也開罰了10萬包括臉書也被開罰了10萬包括這個8月8號的PC home包括7月29號的臉書有關於購買房子的部分也開罰了100萬所以其實你們是有空間有能力去做處理的"},{"start":327.435,"end":345.18,"text":"但是你們自我限縮你們覺得這是不實行為我要再次強調詐騙是比不實不實的廣告更嚴重的不實更嚴重的不實你們當然有權利去開罰當你們開罰了以後我不認為這些人有什麼好有訴願的空間完全沒有訴願空間因為這是假的嘛就是騙的嘛"},{"start":346.44,"end":361.216,"text":"當你開罰了以後這些案件會大量的下降當你開罰了之後臉書沒有辦法去迴避說這是你個人的行為臉書有90%的收益是來自於廣告收益如果他縱容這些詐騙的廣告不斷的出現其他形容是共犯"},{"start":362.097,"end":376.803,"text":"全部的詐騙行為大家都看得懂主委你看得懂吧你看一般人多數人有一半的人我認為都看得懂那個一看就是詐騙廣告臉書會不知道嗎?詐騙的人會不知道嗎?但是他不需要一半的人騙到他只要10%的人被騙到獲利就非常的巨大"},{"start":377.54,"end":402.166,"text":"那公平會在這件事情上有沒有善盡他的職責我認為現在是沒有的所以我這一兩年不斷來講這件事情公平我希望善盡你該有的職責讓你成為是一個積極行政積極作為的機關而不是消極保守當你也知道詐騙是全民最反彈對政府的信任最低的時候而你在這個位置上面正有機會可以做一些事的時候卻放著不做這不是很可惜嗎"},{"start":403.166,"end":425.66,"text":"主委委員我容許我說明一下不時廣告在公平交易法裡面他賣商品他賣服務那如果這個行為是說你來投資就可以賺多少錢基本上這是一個投資的一個廣告那我們要看在公平交易法裡面是不時不時是對商品服務那如果有合資21條主委我認為這個都是你自我的限縮"},{"start":428.04,"end":454.086,"text":"所以反倒是你有賣東西 這個東西的品質功能不太好 這個會被開罰賣騙你的 不會開罰 沒事同樣是不實 一個是全部空的 完全沒有的不實一種是有東西的不實 你只開罰有東西的不實你對於空的 騙的 假的 完全的這種不實 你是不開罰的我認為這個是國王評會自我的限縮你應該要跟著時代的記憶形成我講了嘛 你開罰了 如果任何的書院敢進來書院再來談嘛"},{"start":455.827,"end":467.826,"text":"來疏遠 給行政院來疏遠嘛 給更來疏遠嘛 包括行政法院都可以來疏遠 你可以來談談看嘛但是你連這樣的開罰都不用做的時候 這些的猖獗到這個程度嘛 我講了嘛 光這樣的詐騙一年12萬件"},{"start":470.916,"end":487.226,"text":"明人們嘴巴講破頭了謝金河說我沒有我沒有許貴亞說我沒有沒有講過頭了沒有用詐騙的人數不斷地在增加公平委員明明手上有一個武器可做為什麼不做我再講一下你們對於拍賣網站的部分你們對行動的這些你們都有開發過了"},{"start":488.894,"end":514.406,"text":"在於公平交易法21條不實廣告．對廣告主．對廣告代理業者．對廣告媒體業者．對廣告見證者都可以開罰你能不能善盡這樣的功能 沒有你們自我限縮 自我保守你們只要開罰．不只是對實際在詐騙這些人開罰甚至於如果你也找臉書來談你90%的獲益是來自於廣告連這種不實廣告我們一般人看到都知道那是假的"},{"start":515.907,"end":524.437,"text":"臉書會不知道嗎臉書用ASA搜尋一下往下看啦齁沒有錢怎麼辦如果用小錢賺大錢主委這一看就知道這有問題嘛對不對"},{"start":526.204,"end":553.059,"text":"這個你知道我知道百分之五十人可能都知道但是百分之二三十人被騙了就很嚴重了臉書會不知道嗎臉書會沒有能力來遏止這樣事情嗎要不然你要貼這件廣告在社群或在臉書上貼你至少要有更清楚的確切的洩明嘛現在沒有反正登上去臉書也沒有的事這是各自的你們的言論自由這是那個然後臉書沒事廣告費賺得很高興然後或者是整個社群的賺得很高興那"},{"start":554.72,"end":578.881,"text":"政府機關的這個不歸他這個不歸我就變成最後所有的受害者就是一般的老百姓那人民大院啊政府為什麼對這件事情沒有辦法作為我再強調一次速發部開始也要有作為了沒有錯但是包括警政署很努力在做事後歸事後但事前一定有一套機制可以做更強的一個防治上的效果如果我們做了更多事情的效果的話警政署不用忙翻天整天在那邊抓"},{"start":579.642,"end":580.763,"text":"臉書做得到公平會做得到那為什麼不做"},{"start":601.343,"end":627.971,"text":"主委可不可以再說明一下我想跟委員說明一個行為如果是個犯罪行為應該由司法好好把他制裁那從這個公平交易法的這個不實廣告的內容他主要是一個行政法那如果他同時是一個一個刑事的案件主委我還是要再跟你強調我懂你的說法啦但是我講的是現在政府有沒有窮盡他各種方法去做處理即使行政法裡面這個行政法也可以該給他適度的壓力的啦"},{"start":629.812,"end":639.388,"text":"沒有理由沒有理由所有這些的臉書到台灣來的時候然後在這些事情上面是這麼的毫無壓力的啦賺取了這麼多的利益甚至於"},{"start":640.866,"end":665.709,"text":"詐騙者在這邊利用這樣的平台奪得這麼多利益而我們是無能為力去約束他的這個是交代不過去的啦主委你講的我都懂你講的都司法嘛但是我講的是行政作為行政有沒有這件事情上讓人民感受到積極行政積極作為積極打詐積極反詐騙這樣的作為如果這樣的作為還是這麼消極的話我們當然會要求書發部當然會要求其他部委但我認為公平會該有更強的作為啦"},{"start":666.229,"end":684.453,"text":"不然網費的一個這個機關有這樣的能力在做全世界其他國家很多公平交易的機制也在做很多的努力嘛我認為台灣的公平會可以做出更好的一個做法我期待在這一段時間內一個月內我希望你們針對這個部分有積極的作為你只要開罰了一件兩件三件這些詐騙的就知道"},{"start":684.853,"end":698.248,"text":"公平會已經開始對這個事情已經重視了出手了這樣自然就處理同時間你們可以跟臉書跟Meta幾個講了我們開始重視問題了我不是不能罰你如果你無法遏阻這樣的不實廣告嚴重超不實的不實廣告不斷的出現的話我對你這廣告的媒體業者我也開罰"},{"start":703.894,"end":724.325,"text":"你不能夠賺到這麼多的錢而卻縱容漠視這個違法的詐騙廣告不斷的持續出現你賺這樣錢是不義之財我認為這個要讓這些業者做到而他們有沒有能力做到?絕對有能力做到AI隨便寫個數字一查一下這些什麼稍微有些廣告貼文是貼的一模一樣的這個群組貼那個群組貼那個群組貼這個群組詐騙那個群組詐騙每個詐騙完全無作為"},{"start":729.464,"end":739.635,"text":"臉書無作為政府無作為這樣大家怎麼能接受好不好我希望主委怎麼樣有個作為一個月內給我一份報告好嗎好不好整個這件事情怎麼樣有作為給我一份給我一個報告好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:31:31 - 09:43:51","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154939","gazette":{"lineno":150,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（9時31分）謝謝召委，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委早。我想請教你，現在民怨之首是什麼？民怨最高的是什麼事件？"],["李主任委員鎂：詐騙。"],["賴委員瑞隆：公平會也是政府機關的一環，對於政府應該全力來打詐，我想請教一下，公平會對於打詐這件事情有什麼樣的角色可以來做？"],["李主任委員鎂：打詐是整個政府機關都要動起來去改善它、去阻止它，所以在行政院有一個跨部會小組，公平會也是其中的一員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：公平會有什麼樣更積極的作為？"],["李主任委員鎂：譬如說我們負責如何去識詐、阻詐，這一部分我們也應該責無旁貸去做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，你認為公平會有沒有善盡打詐跟整個防詐的工作？有沒有盡了最大的努力？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有去努力……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望你們有盡了最大努力，我認為公平會有努力，但是我認為還有一些空間。我們來看一下，公平會在查處開罰上，包括不實的廣告跟不實網路廣告，從110年的63件、111年的81件、112年的92件，到今年1到8月的51件，大概就是這樣的規模，一樣不會超過百件；網路廣告也是一樣，大概也是不到百件，從57件、72件、87件，到今年1到8月的49件，相較於1到3月刑事警察局通報的3萬4,055件詐騙案，這是3個月的數量而已，這樣回推下來，大概一年有12萬件，以公平會查處的數量來看，大概不到0.1%。我的意思是說，各單位有沒有都窮盡了各種方法、盡了最大努力防詐？我認為公平會在不實廣告裡面你還有很大的空間，你的報告第五點也提到了查察不實廣告，對我來說，除了查察不實廣告外，詐騙其實是更嚴重的不實廣告，它是空的，什麼都沒有，就可以給你做不實、給你做詐騙。","其實我認為公平交易法裡面有給予公平會足夠的空間去做打詐這樣的動作，所以你不要擔憂，你打了它之後，它要不要來訴願或是要不要來做其他的動作，那是另外一件事情，但是你連打都不打的時候，這些詐騙就會非常的猖獗，主委認不認同這樣的看法？"],["李主任委員鎂：我認同各部會看到有詐欺的情形時都要去處理，所以我們在監控不實廣告的過程中……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委先不要提到各部會，公平會有沒有善盡你所有的方法來打詐？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想沒有最好，只有更好，我們有可以再努力的空間，不敢說百分之百已經做到最好，但是打詐這件事情是各部會都要通力合作的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在最多的就是投資詐騙，甚至謝金河、甚至許貴雅等等常常都不斷的澄清他們並沒有推薦大家來投資，但這些東西卻在臉書、在很多的平臺上，都不斷地被投放，在這件事情上面，公平會有沒有角色可以做處理？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個廣告如果內容不實，影響交易秩序，公平法第二十一條一定可以處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個一定是不實，因為當事人都已經澄清自己並沒有做這樣的宣傳，鼓勵大家來買這一支股票，鼓勵大家來投資，所以這是比不實更嚴重的一個狀況，當然……"],["李主任委員鎂：如果涉及到委員說的詐欺，那已經是刑事犯罪，刑事犯罪的處罰……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我說的刑事或數發部等等，都有它相關的規定可以去處理，我現在講的是公平會在你的角色上，你有沒有辦法去做處理？我認為公平會是有角色可以做處理的，因為我講過了，這是比不實廣告還要更嚴重的不實，裡面賣的是一個空的東西，但是你們自我限縮，覺得這是詐騙，所以詐騙要歸數發部，詐騙要歸警政署，他們忙翻了，但也完全難阻。我的意思是，如果你有辦法給予開罰的時候，因為在實名制之後，你就開罰得到，罰了之後，他們才會有壓力，之後這件事情才會銷聲匿跡，你一定要從源頭去管制這件事情，要不然一年光是這樣的案件，像網路違法的投資廣告一年就12萬件，而你們開罰的不到100件，我相信你只要開罰個5,000件、1萬件，他們絕對有相當大的壓力，可能下個月或是隔一個月之後，馬上就少了一半以上甚至是更低，因為這是政府有沒有善盡你角色的問題。","你剛剛也提到了公平交易法第二十一條是有空間的，我們來看一下，其實公平交易法第二十一條有嚴打臉書跟購物網站不實廣告的，包括你們對momo也曾開罰過，與商品相關而足以影響交易決定的事項為虛偽不實跟引人錯誤的表示，開罰10萬；9月12號針對臉書開罰了5萬；9月10號針對臉書開罰了10萬；8月8號針對PChome開罰；7月29號針對臉書有關於購買房子的部分，也開罰了100萬。所以其實你們是有空間、有能力去做處理的，但是你們自我限縮，覺得這是不實行為。我要再次強調，詐騙比不實廣告還要更嚴重的不實，你們當然有權力去開罰，當你們開罰了以後，這些人還有什麼好訴願的空間？完全沒有訴願空間，因為這就是假的、就是騙人的。當你開罰了以後，這些案件量會大量的下降；當你開罰的時候，臉書就沒有辦法去迴避說這是個人的行為，臉書有90%的收益是來自於廣告收益，如果它縱容這些詐騙廣告不斷地出現，其實它形同是共犯。","事實上，全部的詐騙行為大家都看得懂，主委也看得懂吧？一般人、多數人，有一半的人我認為都看得懂，那個一看就知道是詐騙廣告，臉書會不知道嗎？詐騙的人會不知道嗎？但是他不需要一半的人被騙，只要10%的人被騙，獲利就非常的巨大，公平會在這件事情上有沒有善盡它的職責？我認為現在是沒有的，所以我這一、兩年不斷的講這件事情，希望公平會善盡你該有的職責，讓你成為一個有積極行政、積極作為的機關，而不是消極保守。你也知道詐騙是全民最反彈的，在人民對政府信任度最低的時候，而你在這個位置上面，正有機會可以做一些事的時候，卻放著不做，這不是很可惜嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，容許我說明一下，不實廣告在公平交易法裡面，它是賣商品、賣服務，如果這個行為是你來投資就可以賺多少錢，基本上，這是一個投資的廣告，我們要看公平交易法裡面的不實，不實是對商品服務，如果有合於第二十一條……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我認為這都是你在自我限縮，所以反倒是當你有賣東西，而這個東西品質、功能不太好時，這個就會被開罰，但賣騙你的情況就不會開罰、就沒事，同樣是不實，一種是全部空的，完全沒有的不實；一種是有東西的不實，你只開罰有東西的不實，但你對於空的、騙的、假的、完全的這種不實，你是不開罰的，我認為這個是公平會自我的限縮，你應該要跟著時代來積極行政，我就講了，你開罰了，如果有任何的訴願敢進來，就提出再來談啊！可以訴願啊！包括行政法院都可以向其提出訴願，你都可以來談談看，但是你連這樣的開罰都不願做的時候，這些就會猖獗到這個程度了嘛！我講了，光這樣的詐騙一年有12萬件，名人們都快講破頭了，謝金河說：我沒有、我沒有；許貴雅說：我沒有、我沒有。他們都快講破頭了，都還是沒有用，被詐騙的人數不斷在增加，公平會明明手上有一個武器可做，為什麼不做？","我再講一下，你們對於拍賣網站行動電源的部分都有開罰過了，在於公平交易法第二十一條不實廣告，對廣告主、對廣告代理業者、對廣告媒體業者、對廣告薦證者，都可以開罰，所以你們有沒有善盡這樣的功能？沒有！你們自我限縮、自我保守，你們只要開罰，不只是對實際在詐騙的這些人開罰，甚至於你也可以找臉書來談，它90%的獲利是來自於廣告，連這種不實廣告，我們一般人看到後都知道那是假的，臉書會不知道嗎？臉書用AI搜尋一下，像「沒有錢怎麼辦？」、「如何用小錢賺大錢？」，主委，這一看就知道是有問題的，對不對？你知道、我知道，50%的人可能都知道，但是其他百分之二、三十的人被騙就很嚴重了，臉書會不知道嗎？臉書會沒有能力來遏止這樣事情嗎？要不然你要貼這些廣告，在社群或在臉書上貼這些廣告，至少要有更清楚的、確切的說明啊！現在是登上去臉書後反正也沒有你們的事，這是各自的言論自由，然後臉書都沒事，就是廣告費賺得很高興，或者整個社群賺得很高興，而政府機關說這個不歸它管，變成最後所有的受害者就是一般的老百姓，當然人民會怨啊！政府為什麼對這樣事情沒有辦法作為？","我再講一次，數發部開始要有作為了，沒有錯；包括警政署也很努力在做，可是事後歸事後，事前一定有一套機制可以做更強的、可以有一個防制上的效果。如果我們做了更多事前的工作，它的效果就是警政署不用忙翻天，不用整天在那邊抓，也不用很多人被詐騙完了之後還要求它下架，整天發文要求臉書下架，因為臉書就有能力去識別這是不是真的，如果是假的，其實不用全部嘛！現在的詐騙廣告、假的廣告有一半若是你自己篩選掉的，就可以造福很多人了，這做得到嗎？我認為絕對做得到，臉書做得到，公平會做得到，為什麼不做？主委可不可以再說明一下？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想跟委員說明，一個行為如果是個犯罪行為，應該由司法好好把它制裁，而公平交易法這個不實廣告的內容，它主要是一個行政罰，如果它同時是一個刑事的案件……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我還是要再跟你強調，我懂你的說法，但我講的是現在政府有沒有窮盡各種方法去處理。其實行政法裡面，這個部分行政法也該給他適度的壓力。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們現在是有這個防護監控……"],["賴委員瑞隆：沒有理由所有這些臉書或……到臺灣來的時候，然後在這件事情上面是這麼毫無壓力的啦！賺取了這麼多利益，甚至於詐騙者在這邊利用這樣的平臺獲得了這麼多利益，而我們是無能為力去拒絕束他的，這個是交代不過去的！主委，你講的我都懂，你講的都是司法，但我講的是行政作為，行政有沒有在這件事情上讓人民感受到積極行政、積極作為，積極打詐、積極反詐騙這樣的作為？如果這樣的作為還是這麼消極的話，我們當然還會要求數發部，當然會要求其他部會，但我認為公平會該有更強的作為，不然枉費了這一個機關有這樣的能力在做，全世界其他國家很多公平交易的機制也在做很多的努力嘛！我認為臺灣的公平會可以做出更好的一個作法。","我期待在這段時間內，一個月內我希望你們針對這個部分有積極的作為，你只要開罰了1件、2件、3件，這些詐騙的就知道公平會已經開始對這個事情重視了、出手了，這樣自然就會處理，同時間你們也可以跟臉書，跟Meta幾個業者講，我們開始重視問題了，我不是不能罰你，如果你無法遏阻這樣的不實廣告，嚴重超不實的不實廣告不斷出現的話，我對於你這個廣告的媒體業者我會開罰，你不能夠賺到這麼多的錢而卻縱容、漠視違法的詐騙廣告不斷地持續出現，你賺這樣的錢是不義之財。我認為這個要讓這些業者做到，而他們有沒有能力做到？絕對有能力做到，AI隨便寫個數字，查一下這些什麼，稍微……有些廣告的貼文是貼得一模一樣的，這個群組貼、那個群組貼，另外那個群組也貼，這個群組詐騙、那個群組詐騙，每個都詐騙，完全無作為，臉書無作為，政府無作為，這樣大家怎麼能接受。好不好？我希望主委，怎麼樣有個作為，一個月內給我一份報告，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好不好？針對這件事情怎麼樣有作為，給我一份報告。好，謝謝。"],["主席：請張嘉郡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝蘇貞昌"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:29:53 - 09:40:36","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154938","gazette":{"lineno":293,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（9時30分）謝謝召委，我們請人事長。"],["主席：請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：召委早。"],["林委員思銘：人事長早安。首先跟人事長來就教有關於我們在公部門設置職場托育設施的相關議題，我看了今天的業務報告，當然人事長在業務報告有提到相關的說明，但是我還是想了解一下，就是陳院長他在上上個會期就講說政府要設立一個兒童的照顧專責機關，人事總處要跟其他相關部會一起來研議。我們知道新竹縣上個月在竹北就發生了一個虐嬰事件，托育人員將幼兒綁在椅子上長達數個小時，而且予以言語的羞辱，其實國內虐嬰的事件未曾間斷過，所以本席在這邊想知道，我們為了因應少子化的現況，在推動公部門設置職場的托育設施，是否有公告相關的設置參考指引？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有、有、有。事實上過去這段時間，我們跟衛福部、教育部都有做這樣的一個宣導，還有相關的資訊都有公開，截至目前為止，我們托嬰、托幼的設施總共設了195處，不過，我這裡也要跟委員報告，因為要符合這樣的規定，有樓層、面積，還有消防安全的一些相關的規定，所以現在各個政府機關，不管中央、地方，大家都努力朝這個方向再去增加，因為每一年的需求大約30%左右，另外我要跟委員報告一件事情，我們也同樣的透過內政部……"],["林委員思銘：人事長，我打斷你一下，你剛才說目前的需求只有30%？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：公務同仁覺得有托嬰的需求、公家機關有托嬰的需求，差不多30%左右，顯然這個需求都維持在一個固定的數量，所以我們上次也有提一個方案，內政部也接受，就是在未來興建的政府相關設施裡面，都要預留托嬰、托育這些相關的環境。"],["林委員思銘：人事長，這樣好了，我跟你說，你把目前執行的成效，就是在全國各個縣市的各個公務部門、各個縣市你們所統計的相關數據，會後提供一份給我。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，沒問題。"],["林委員思銘：我來了解一下到底我們的效益是如何。其實我要講的就是說，我們政府除了因應少子化的現狀要去鼓勵生育以外，對於就養、生養的環境我們要提供更多的資源，所以我們不是說只讓孩子生了之後，但是我們整個就養的環境、生養的環境造成很多父母、年輕父母的不便，所以就會影響他生孩子的意願，因此對於就養跟生養環境的重視、相關資源的支援，我希望人事總處也要一併全盤把它考量進去。","另外，我們一直談到司法人員工作環境的問題，在上個會期我們也講得非常多，我們召委上次對於最高法院民事大法庭在2022年12月9日的裁定，造成人壽保險已繳的保險費可作為強制執行的標的，這個裁定出爐之後，造成我們的民事執行處大塞車、案量大爆滿，所以造成執行處的書記官、執行員、執達員這些人員完全無法消化這麼大的案量。到目前為止，人事總處有沒有去了解過，尤其是臺北地檢署或者臺北的民事執行處，包含士林或者新北的這些民事執行處，尤其是六都的，對於相關的案量，他們目前消化的情況大概是怎麼樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡也跟委員報告一下，事實上，總處針對法務部這個區塊，我們非常的重視，所以今年9月3號我們有到臺北地檢署實際去做一些訪視，因為有些數據資料還有現場的情況，坦白講，我們在總處裡面沒有辦法感受，所以今年9月3號總處有一組人，還有外面的專家學者，我們一起過去協助他們了解，委員剛才提的就是一個階段性的人力需求，這是一種，一個是長期性的人力需求，這是要從兩個構面來看，等一下我會提供一些數據給委員。"],["林委員思銘：好，這樣啦，人事長，我要強調的就是說，法務部檢察署、司法院他們都有提出最高員額應該修正的需求，以院檢現在的員額數量，他們有辦法消化這些源源不絕的案量需求嗎？有沒有辦法？雖然你書面資料還沒提供給我，以你現在來看，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上過去這兩年，這個議題我們一直在跟法務部對話，我們在這兩年給他約用的檢察官助理有250位，他本身是在處理最近這幾年暴增的詐騙，可是我相信透過打詐三法之後，這個案件量一定會往下走，你如果進用太多約聘的檢察官助理，未來這些人要扮演的角色，我覺得我們必須從人力資源的使用上長期來看。反而我個人在觀察，雖然一個檢察官他會搭配檢事官還有書記官，有一定比例，目前我們所掌握到的，法務部目前有550個缺額還沒有補進來，我覺得在增加總員額之前，應該是先去用你既有的員額還沒有用完的部分，應該先去用，而且說真的，要優先用在檢察官跟檢察事務官，因為檢事官他可以協助檢察官去做開庭、一些法制方面的這些工作，一般的書記官或檢察官助理是沒有這樣的授權。"],["林委員思銘：是，人事長，我想你強調的是有關於檢察事務官或者是相關的助理、檢察官助理他們員額的需求，當然你剛才提的也不是沒有道理，就是說如果未來案量減少的話，這些人是不是真的需求那麼多，可能也要做出滾動式的評估跟檢討，但是我現在想了解的就是說，其實現在基層的檢察官也普遍認為他們很辛苦，就是我們檢察官的員額或者司法官的員額，是否要考慮他們提出來的需求，總處這邊能夠滿足他們的需求嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得我必須要用兩點來跟委員說明，第一個，假如我們源頭不減量的話，檢察官再增加一倍，他也會很操，如果要增加的話，坦白講，應該去補充最累的檢察官、檢事官，而不是去增加檢察官助理，因為檢察官助理他做這些routine蒐集，尤其以檢察官助理來看，案件量剛成立的時候，坦白講，文件量是很少，他不像法官助理一樣，他是已經成案的，雖然名稱都有助理，但檢察官助理跟法官助理在處理的工作上是不同的啦！其實人力要用在刀口上。"],["林委員思銘：人事長，你是用了很多的資源在檢察事務官去減輕檢察官辦案的壓力，但是我們也了解到，因為我現在一直重視的就是檢察官本身的問題，還有司法官本身的問題，我們看到還是有很多檢察官或者司法官辦案辦到過勞，還有很多就不幸猝死，這種情況還是層出不窮，所以你認為檢察官跟法官的數量是足夠的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我認為……"],["林委員思銘：需要我們一直去補充他的助理或者事務官給他？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員，你的想法跟我一樣，要補充的是在司法官跟檢察官，不是去補充檢察官助理，因為到目前為止還沒有看過哪一個檢察官助理過勞，反而是在檢察官跟司法官，應該是要去補充上面的人嘛，這些員額應該就是要補充，結果你去補充底下的，你就用錯方向了嘛。"],["林委員思銘：我想包含莊瑞雄委員，我們都是學法律出身的，對於約僱的檢察官助理或者檢察事務官的考訓，其實這些人對於法律的純熟度或者專精度真的有達到我們的標準嗎？不管是考試院或者人事長，這都是你們要去考量的，你們補足這麼多人，真的能夠確實地讓辦案品質更好嗎？這都要考慮。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：所以我一直拜託法務部應該要去增加檢察官的數量，不是去增加檢察官助理的量嘛。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就溝通過……"],["林委員思銘：這點我給你肯定。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝蘇人事長。","接下來有請莊委員瑞雄質詢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：（9分40分）謝謝召委，有請人事長。"],["主席：有請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：人事長早。我看今天早上林思銘委員在幫你開藥方，這個藥方下了之後到底有沒有效就不知道了，但是底下我有幾個問題要來做一個請教。上個會期本席也針對體育署升格為體育部的議題跟你做過請教，今天再來就教。奧運以後，我們看到行政院多次召開升格諮詢的會議，也請了許多學者專家及選手做討論。從目前的進度來看，可以預期體育署的升格應該是單獨成立一個新的部會，差不多是這樣，並不是跟現有的部會做合併，也可能不會取代可能降編的部會。但是我們看到中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條的規定，部之總數有14個而已，這邊已經訂定各個部會的總數，雖然在99年之前有幾次依據行政院組織法的部會數量變動來配合更動數量，但是99年以後就保持14個部會，以此作為基礎，行政院組織法第三條裡面講得很清楚。所以首先要請教人事長的就是，上一次組改行政院決定成立數位部，但同時也將科技部改制為國科會，接下來因應整個體育署的升格，會有部會因此受到影響而調整，譬如改制或者併裁，還是直接提案修法，提高到15個部？請教你。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，目前的規劃是要修中央行政機關組織基準法、行政院組織法，還有教育部組織法、新成立的法人，我們總共要修4個法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：修4個法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是，我們沒有裁掉。不過我這裡也要跟委員報告一下，這一次成立……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以現在多1個部了，你的意思是變成15個部？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：15個部，多1個。"],["莊委員瑞雄：OK。你也必須要想到整個員額編制的問題，參照上次組織的改造，農業部升格之後多了131個，環境部多了103個，至於體育事務，我相信同樣是廣泛，對人力的需求勢必比過去體育署的時期更多。本席想瞭解人事長對於體育部升格後人力的需求部分有什麼見解？不是光為升格而升格。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實不能用升格的概念，而是他們希望是一個全新的部，不是用升格的概念。升格就是原來體育署幾個組的名稱改成司，但是目前教育部體育相關單位他們規劃的方向是要成立一個全新的部會，有新的生命，像一些運動產業這些相關的，他們有一個新的組織……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不要胡亂解釋，那就是叫作升格，你還說不是，那麼好的事情，你現在當作不是新升格的概念。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個是層次的問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！所以大家都很期待，你還跟我說那個不是叫作升格。而且從署變部，你還說那個不是升格，不然那個叫作什麼？是升「起毛」喔？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那個叫作全新的，因為這件事情對臺灣未來的發展很重要，所以先深入這個……然後它主要的觀念應該是重新設計的觀念，而不是直接從小養大。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然是要養大，不然光是改個名，從署變作部，員額不用去增加嗎？一定要增加的啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：員額一定會增加……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：最重要它的function也要增加。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然！可是你會碰到一個問題，就是我們機關總額數的上限，依據總員額法的規定是16萬900人，你可以看到現在不只是民間缺工，看來行政部門也全部都是缺工，就是我們自己被法律給綁住了，譬如總員額法限制了機關總數的數量，有地方要人，有的地方就會少人。我現在擔任職籃的會長，我很清楚，你知不知道？我們大家都樂見政府投入更多的人力及資源去幫助運動產業的發展，可是我擔心被整個法令、各部會排擠，現在人力都已經吃緊了，如果不去未雨綢繆，你剛才還跟我說那個不叫作升格，我快被你嚇死。","我舉個例子給你聽，譬如現在不只臺東，各縣市都會碰到這個問題。我現在每個禮拜都要去臺東兩趟，我收到最多的民怨是什麼？我也曾經跟你反映過，就是國產署的部分，農地換約時會碰到老百姓本身的農業保險或者必須有農保的問題。臺東有85%全部都是公有地，老百姓必須向公家租地，租地換約時，監察院說你們一定要去現場會勘，這個規定是合理的，可是你們人手就不夠，導致案件嚴重塞車，塞了這麼多年了，你們不去做一個解決，怎麼對？國產署也唱哭調給你們聽，公務人員特考、甚至高考都舉辦了，舉辦了以後怎麼樣？舉辦了以後要分發，譬如人事長分發到臺東，你想了想，自己又不是傻瓜，怎麼會去臺東？去了以後還要綁3年，離開之後同一個科室再換一下，變成要綁6年才可以離開臺東到其他的地方，有時候想一想就覺得「毋通」，尤其年輕人考慮到娶妻嫁人，說不定另一半不在臺東任職，他們就不願意去，結果又重新再考一次，所以就碰到這樣的問題。所以你們就是人力不足，人力不足就要想辦法。","臺東的國有耕地、畜牧用地、造林地及養殖地戶數有1萬655戶，總面積占全臺第一。人事長，請你幫忙想辦法，不是光發一個文。國產署當然有負責任地說碰到農業保險、農保的優先，但是就算優先，還是沒有人力可以處理，我們要有解決方法，政府就是要幫老百姓解決問題。","像臺東這樣的地區，公有地占了將近90%，遇到這個問題該怎麼辦？以現在一般國有承租農地來看的話，以6年左右為主流，農民租用國有地後開始耕作，在這個過程裡面，可能會碰到災損或是農作物保險的問題，對不對？政府要求必須要有國有地承租的事實及農作物生產等等，站在農業部的立場，很合理，但問題就是站在農民的立場呢？是政府沒有人力幫他們處理，所以你們部跟部的政策在打架，我認為這個問題沒有趕快去解決是不行的。","你看國產署南區分署臺東辦事處有幾個人，你知道嗎？查勘業務8個人，審核業務8個人，總共16個人。人事長，你想想看，大巨蛋10公頃，臺東承租地的面積差不多1,000個大巨蛋，你只放了16個人在那裡，人力哪夠？人事長，真的不夠，所以我們當政府就有責任。你坐過火車嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我常常坐。"],["莊委員瑞雄：從臺北坐到臺東要多久，你知道嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：四個多鐘頭。"],["莊委員瑞雄：四個多鐘頭。以當天往返來講，你說從臺北去支援的，或者從嘉義、臺南去支援的，他們坐火車去，我們說的四個多鐘頭是坐最頂級的自強號、普悠瑪，就要花4小時40分鐘，扣、扣、扣、扣到那裡以後，能夠會勘幾件？去到那麼遠的地方，沒多久就又要坐火車回來，一天坐兩趟，早上去再坐回來，天都晚了，就算再厲害，了不起一天會勘2件，你叫老百姓怎麼辦？你叫臺東這麼多公有地的承租戶怎麼辦？全國各縣市幾乎都會碰到這樣的問題，人力不足嘛！現勘是法律規定的、政府規定的，規定得合不合理？我也認為合理，可是問題是要這樣規定，你要有人手幫老百姓解決問題，不然我們設政府做什麼？你看臺東、花蓮大家都唉唉叫！唉唉叫！他們就是因為比較遠，比較遠的聲音這裡就比較聽不到。屏東和臺東差不多，地緣關係差不多，地理環境差不多，它有綠島、蘭嶼，我那邊有小琉球，它那邊要發展觀光，我這邊有墾丁國家公園、小琉球、大鵬灣，每一樣我這邊都有，原住民地區也有7個，所以地理環境差不多，遇到的衝擊也差不多，但是我一去看就覺得你們這樣很不合理，因為政府沒有人力，政府沒有人力要叫老百姓去死，這是不對的！有沒有辦法？有沒有方法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，我跟委員報告……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你有辦法怎麼現在才講，早就應該講了！要去解決了！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們要去協調，因為我們的辦法他們不用。"],["莊委員瑞雄：誰不要用？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：國產署我們也溝通過，我們去年11月就有去臺東看過，所以我們有增加31人，增加的31人裡面，用於臺東辦事處的是4人，所以現在約聘僱人員剛好25人，約用人員24人，總共有49人，其中辦理委員剛才說的業務人員差不多有16人，三分之一。"],["莊委員瑞雄：雖然有三分之一，問題是出去會勘1組8人而已。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，我上禮拜有再拜託財政部莊部長，我會請他過來，然後我們會找國產署大家一起坐下來討論一下，會請委員你來主持，這樣比較快，或許我們的想法不是很完整，可是起碼我們會拋一些新的想法，譬如找代書公會一起來解決，因為人再怎麼增加，我不可能為了增加1人去提缺，等到人進來差不多要1、2年，這樣會來不及。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這種行政效率實在是太慢、太慢、太慢了，怎麼說？我簡單講，就是這邊在大塞車的時候，颱風又要來了，對不對？他說他有種植，而且他也受到損害了，我們會問他種植在哪裡，那個地是誰的，你馬上卡到有沒有租約的問題，所以這對民眾來講不公平。我剛才說的是只有坐火車，如果要省時間搭飛機去，2個人的機票是9,432元，也不用支援到一個禮拜，只要住5天就好，而且是住最便宜的，2個人5天需要8,685元，這是搭飛機的狀況。現在去支援的人事成本還是那麼高，卻又辦不了事情，要怎麼辦？趕快解決掉問題，臺東的問題要趕快幫人家解決掉，這個沒有道理，我去臺東一看，被賴總統派去臺東認養以後，我看到了這些問題，不是只有觀光的問題，還有各部會都存在很多問題，那裡也算農業縣，不只觀光而已，農業也是大宗，老百姓都很努力，他們七早八早太陽出來就去耕作，耕作之後遇到這種問題，政府應該要幫他們解決，結果你卻說你沒有人力，我認為一個禮拜內人事長要幫他們解決，一個禮拜可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我沒有那麼厲害。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不能說你沒那麼厲害，這個是長期的問題，不然……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是長期的問題，你要我一個禮拜解決，我也不是神仙。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以長期大家都坐在那邊等死，這樣怎麼對！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，我非常積極來處理這件事情，這樣可以嗎？"],["莊委員瑞雄：鍾佳濱召委現在站起來了，鍾佳濱，你認為我這樣講沒有道理嗎？那些問題我們都沒有幫他們解決，地方不是我們執政沒錯，但問題是我們中央缺人力去幫忙，這樣不通，我要求一個禮拜。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一個禮拜我約財政部大家一起來談。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你要幫他們解決問題，你已經說長年沒辦法解決，我們就把它解決，不是這樣嗎？不然你選舉選輸人家只是剛好而已，民進黨在那邊要向人家抱怨什麼！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好啦，我來努力啦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我來努力。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們一個禮拜把它解決掉。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：但是我要拚，財政部那邊也要配合。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個是機關政府內部整合的問題，不能把這個不利益推給老百姓，這樣不通！我們自己解決掉，好不好？"],["主席：莊委員，我們2個一起來跟他們討論。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以嗎？鍾佳濱也要幫忙了，我們是雙東。"],["主席：姐妹花。"],["莊委員瑞雄：姐妹花是沒有啦，那都是很辛苦的，農業縣很辛苦，如果因為政府的不作為，因為政府的人力不足，讓老百姓在那個地方跟你們哀幾年了，你們還沒辦法解決，這樣我看不下去，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們來打拚。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝，不能只有打拚，而是要把它完成，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，謝謝蘇人事長。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄代）：接下來請下一位質詢委員鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","林思銘","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那我們一樣請陳主委請陳主委委員長主委早 主委首先我想請教一下這個在今天的這個報告裡面有提到現在預告來修正所謂最有利標的評選辦法裡面有增列了這個減少溫室氣體排放的這個技術項目黃老想問一下他的這個"},{"start":28.615,"end":46.506,"text":"平選辦法陣列這一條那它用在了後續的所有公共工程還在實施選項之一還有推動這樣的這個平選因為減少溫室氣體排放這個是一個很籠統的這個形容詞啦那到底減少多少會被列為平選的標準"},{"start":48.408,"end":75.486,"text":"我想這個是機關在辦理招標的時候決標方式是用評審的話那麼評審有很多項目那我們這個是這個規劃是希望在評審項目裡面能夠增加這個碳排減碳的這樣的考量所以現階段來講這個東西只是鼓勵還不是強制嗎鼓勵然後各機關他自己去橫著看是比例是多少我想這個是主辦機關的選擇"},{"start":76.747,"end":94.472,"text":"那未來比例減板減少多少?主委說你要下放到變成是各招標機關自己來決定到時候你們會去協調這個環境部去訂相關的標準嗎?還是一樣由各主管機關自己決定多少叫做減碳符合這個減少溫室氣體排放的標準?"},{"start":96.411,"end":123.549,"text":"我想這個應該是希望各主辦機關來決定他應該每個工程有不同的考量所以檢探在這個工程裡面是要站到什麼程度各主辦機關他的這個訂定我想是機關的權利環境部不會訂一個整體的標準嗎我想要問一下環境部"},{"start":124.434,"end":150.387,"text":"那這個是因為是納入這個評選決標的過程裡面所以當然廠商會提他的相關計畫嘛這個案的相關計畫這個計畫裡面包括安全啊等等檢探的計畫所以那評選委員可以針對這些計畫去認為他是做的好不好有沒有達成效果好不好所以那個分數啊比例還是主辦機關去這個檢探是占5%或占2%或占10%"},{"start":153.268,"end":153.889,"text":"我們再跟環境部商量"},{"start":171.101,"end":193.621,"text":"對阿,這樣子大家廠商他們才有一個方向才有辦法依據嘛,不然到底減少多少就是說符合最有利標的標準,不如如果又放到各單位去做,那其實跟現在其實差不多啦,因為現在其實本來你的技術表裡面本來就有說針對環境保護會對環境影響多少等等的,它本來就可以放進這個相關的評選標準,但是因為過去都沒有訂定所謂的數字,那裡面訂定數字當然大家各單位各行其事嘛,"},{"start":194.581,"end":198.202,"text":"主委你什麼時候決定要去的?我們這個行程安排很早"},{"start":216.231,"end":223.665,"text":"9月初就安排去不好意思因為那天剛好立法院召委你9月初就決定要去你知道我們什麼時候收到通知嗎"},{"start":224.619,"end":252.779,"text":"我們9月24我們下午我們立法院的委員們臺中就是臺中的捷運沿線的委員都是9月24的中午過後我們才收到這個通知好那你很早以前就決定然後9月5早上要去但9月5早上剛好立法院開議要選召委所以沒有一個委員本人能夠親自去現場去給你簡單的這個報告讓你瞭解一下地方建設的狀況所以你看這個照片大多只能派助理好不好主委"},{"start":253.917,"end":269.521,"text":"這個以後這種重大工程大家一定都非常關切的通知可能是慢了一點這個部分拜託主委未來這個相關通知要早一點因為那天是去看技術審查所以相關的委員到現場去看"},{"start":269.821,"end":282.525,"text":"好,所以接下來一樣是捷運藍線的部分那當現場有討論到關於這個現在要做的基本設計修正的部分那現場也提到說交通局那邊也提到說希望兩週內能夠送進這個工程會來提標來審查"},{"start":286.346,"end":287.027,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":302.327,"end":302.567,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":322.419,"end":326.102,"text":"基本設計我想這樣來審議有些意見再補正一下會很快年底之前這個合訂這個基本設計是沒有問題的"},{"start":339.011,"end":365.892,"text":"好 主委謝謝 因為我們就期待說因為這個捷運10年10年前就開始在做相關的文書作業了那10年後我們希望說明年能夠順利的來動用因為這個表定也要蓋10年啊其實真的是非常久那到底10年內能不能完成待會我們會討論一下所以這部分我們希望市府如果兩中內送進了這個工程會那既然大家有相關的共識都有了現場也討論過了我們希望他能夠盡速年底前來把它核定可以嗎好 沒有問題"},{"start":367.318,"end":383.534,"text":"那再來我看這個一樣是提到捷運工程的流標的問題我剛剛想說為什麼講10年我們都很擔心能不能做到因為從過去這些年下來包含是北捷的這個各縣也好或是說甚至這個桃園捷運也好我想流標的次數都非常非常多次啊"},{"start":383.934,"end":403.862,"text":"那這一次臺中捷運除了藍線之外未來除了捷運藍線那包含捷運綠線延伸包含捷運橘線有可能同一時間臺中同時有很多的捷運工程在進行那我想問工程會這邊有什麼樣的手段或是有什麼樣的建議讓市府在招標的過程裡面不要再發生過去這些年下來這種捷運工程大量流暴的狀況"},{"start":405.267,"end":419.526,"text":"我想這個因為捷運工程本身就是一個巨額的採購所以能夠做這樣子的捷運工程的廠商不管國內外都很有限加上我們整個物價"},{"start":420.768,"end":421.268,"text":"所謂合理其實就是價格的問題"},{"start":446.936,"end":465.89,"text":"價格裡面又涉及到現在每年就是這種營建土建成本還有我們現在這個勞務標的問題這個部分到工程會議你有沒有標準說讓地方政府或在開票過程裡面有彈性讓它後續不管是物條也好或是它的這個預留相關預算也好"},{"start":466.77,"end":485.335,"text":"這工程會有沒有辦法去輔導嗎還是一樣讓各段各段自己進行我們可以跟臺東市政府來合作來協助啦因為從我們很多禮約爭議的案例來看的確在施作或招標的契約裡面如果說不是那麼的"},{"start":486.315,"end":491.159,"text":"最後一個問題這個是你們自己覺得要政府採訪法規定的各單位本來就要上傳他們的招票案件"},{"start":511.357,"end":529.302,"text":"那也看到其實基本上各單位都做得蠻好的都七八成左右唯獨兩個單位一個是經濟部一個是國防部國防部特別低啊他一上傳件數是149但實際上傳24所以等於說相關的這個政府採購裡面國防部跟經濟部可能是你們"},{"start":530.382,"end":530.402,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":551.94,"end":552.341,"text":"黃健豪委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:32:10 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09:41:49","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":"154937","gazette":{"lineno":118,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（9時32分）謝謝主席，我們邀請陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["黃委員健豪：主委早。主委，首先我想請教一下，在今天的報告裡面有提到，現在預告修正的最有利標的評選辦法裡面有增列了減少溫室氣體排放的技術項目，我想問一下，評選辦法增列了這一條，那它是用在後續的所有公共工程還是它只是選項之一？還有推動這項評選，因為減少溫室氣體排放是一個很籠統的形容詞，那到底減少多少會被列為評選的標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：我想機關在辦理招標的時候，決標的方式是用評審的，評審有很多項目，我們這個規劃是希望在評審項目裡面能夠增加減碳的考量，我想這個……"],["黃委員健豪：所以現階段來講，這個東西只是鼓勵，還不是強制嘛？"],["陳主任委員金德：鼓勵，對，鼓勵，然後各機關它自己去衡酌看看比例是多少，我想這是主辦機關的權責。"],["黃委員健豪：那未來的比例減少多少，你說主管機關的意思是說，你要下放到變成是各招標機關自己來決定，到時候你們會去協調環境部訂定相關的標準嗎？還是一樣由各主管機關自己決定，多少叫做減碳，符合減少溫室氣體排放的標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：我想這應該是需要各個主辦機關來決定，應該每個工程有不同的考量，所以減碳在這個工程裡面是要占到什麼樣的程度，各個主辦機關的訂定，我想也是機關的權力。"],["黃委員健豪：環境部不會訂一個整體的標準嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個我想要問一下環境部，因為這是納入評選決標的過程裡面，所以當然廠商會提他的相關計畫，就是個案的相關計畫，這個計畫裡面包括安全等等減碳的計畫，所以評選委員可以針對這些計畫去評斷，認為他做得好不好，效果好不好，所以那個分數比例還是主辦機關去規範，比方說這個減碳是占百分之五或是占百分之二或是占百分之十……"],["黃委員健豪：主委，我還是建議，因為今天針對這個，我是覺得鼓勵是好事，就是說真的，往這個方向走是對的，包括你們今天的簡報裡面也有提到，對於這種減碳的標準是未來工程會的目標，但是到底訂定多少，我覺得應該要有個目標、方向出來……"],["陳主任委員金德：這個我們再跟環境部商量。"],["黃委員健豪：對啊，這樣子大家廠商才有一個方向、依據，不然到底減少多少叫做符合最有利標的標準？如果又放到各單位去做，那其實跟現在差不多啦！因為現在其實技術標裡面本來就有針對環境保護或對環境影響多少等等的，它本來就有放進相關的評選標準，但是因為過去都沒有訂定所謂的數字，那你沒有訂定數字，當然大家各單位各行其是嘛，好不好？主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["黃委員健豪：接下來，主委，上週主委在25號的時候，有來臺中看臺中的藍線捷運，當然，我們還是要感謝工程會重視這條捷運建設，但是我要提個細節，主委，你什麼時候決定要去的？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們這個行程安排得很早，9月初就安排要去了，不好意思，因為那天剛好立法院召委選舉。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，對，我知道，你9月初就決定要去，你知道我們什麼時候收到通知嗎？9月24日下午，我們立法院的委員們，尤其臺中藍線捷運沿線的委員，都是924的中午過後，我們才收到通知。你很早以前就決定925早上要去，但是925早上剛好立法院開議要選召委，所以沒有一個委員本人能夠親自去現場給你簡單的報告，讓你了解一下地方建設的狀況……"],["陳主任委員金德：這個不好意思。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你看看這個照片，大家都只能派助理出席，好不好，主委，以後這種……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們來改進啦！"],["黃委員健豪：這種重大工程，大家一定都非常關切的。"],["陳主任委員金德：時間是很早就定了，但通知可能是慢了一點。"],["黃委員健豪：好，這個部分再拜託主委，未來相關的通知要早一點。"],["陳主任委員金德：因為那天是去看技術審查，所以相關的委員到現場去看。"],["黃委員健豪：好。接下來，一樣是捷運藍線的部分，當然現場有討論到關於現在在做的基本設計修正的部分，現場交通局這邊也提到說，希望兩週內送進工程會並提報審查，當然，如果在兩週內送出來，預計大概10月中就能夠提報到工程會去。我們要問的是，如果提報到工程會，距離年底還有兩個半月左右的時間，那相關的預算，其實不管市府也好，交通部也好，已經編列了明年藍線預定要開工的預算，所以我們當然希望明年能夠順利來動工嘛，那這個審查會，年底前有沒有辦法去確定相關的技術細節，還是還會再公文來來往往很多次？"],["陳主任委員金德：那天安排相關的委員去看，就表示說已經進入最後可以核定的階段了，因為臺中市政府有提一個修正……"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個修正也馬上可以核定。那我想基本設計的審議，有些意見再補正一下會很快，年底之前核定這個基本設計是沒有問題的。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝主委。因為這個捷運十年前就開始做相關的文書作業了，那十年後我們就期待希望明年能夠順利的來動工，因為此案表定也要蓋十年，其實真的是非常久，那到底十年內能不能完成，待會我們會討論一下。所以這個部分，我們希望市府如果兩週內送進了工程會，既然大家相關的共識都有了，現場也討論過了，我們希望能夠儘速在年底前把它核定，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，沒有問題。"],["黃委員健豪：再來，一樣是提到捷運工程流標的問題，我剛剛為什麼講，我們都很擔心十年能不能做到，因為從過去這些年下來，包含北捷的路線也好，或說甚至桃園捷運也好，流標的次數都非常非常多次。那這一次臺中捷運，除了捷運藍線之外，未來包含捷運綠線的延伸，包含捷運橘線，有可能臺中同一時間有很多的捷運工程在進行，我想問工程會這邊有什麼樣的手段，或是有怎樣的建議，讓市府在招標的過程中不要再發生過去這些年下來，這種捷運工程大量流標的狀況？"],["陳主任委員金德：我想因為捷運工程本身就是一個巨額的採購，所以能夠做這種捷運工程的廠商，不管國內外，都很有限，加上我們整個物價或者是缺工等等因素，都對案子是否能夠順利決標造成一些變數，所以關於整個契約或合約，我們工程會會跟臺中市政府來協調，我們會來協助讓整個契約的訂定比較合理，才不至於一再的流標。"],["黃委員健豪：我想所謂「合理」，其實就是價格的問題嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：沒有錯。"],["黃委員健豪：但是價格其實又涉及到現在每年這種營建的土建成本，還有勞務標的問題，這個部分，包括工程會，你有沒有標準說讓地方政府在開標的過程當中有彈性，讓它後續不管是物調也好，或是它的預留相關預算也好，這工程會有辦法去輔導嗎？還是一樣讓各段、各段自己進行？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們可以跟臺中市政府來合作、來協助，因為從很多履約爭議的案例來看，的確在施作或招標的契約裡，如果說不是那麼合理或者清楚，會容易造成履約的爭議，比方有的有物調，有的沒有物調等等，所以到底土建跟機電可不可以分開來施作，這個都是方式之一，我們會跟臺中市政府來協助辦理。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝主委，再拜託喔！最後一個問題，就是你們自己要求照政府採購法規定，各單位本來就要上傳他們招標的案件，基本上，我們看到其實各單位都做得滿好的，有到七、八成左右，唯獨兩個單位，一個是經濟部，一個是國防部，國防部特別低啊，他們應上傳件數是149，但實際上傳只有24，等於是在政府相關採購裡面，國防部跟經濟部你們可能比較不知道他們發生了什麼狀況，這到底是國防部的問題，是因為涉及機密呢？還是作業疏失？如果是機密的話，是不是有機密案件的處理方式，而不是像這個數字呈現出來的，各單位其實都做得很好，該上傳的、該讓你們掌握進度的、該讓你們了解標案過程的，他們都有上傳，唯獨這兩個單位，主委有掌握到這部分的情況嗎？後續你們要怎麼處理？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們在每個月的督導會報裡會要求這兩個單位說明，來了解。"],["黃委員健豪：所以他們目前還沒有說明過？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們下一個督導會報會議會來要求。"],["黃委員健豪：好，說明結果之後，請主席裁示，再請主委提供給本會委員，讓我們知道一下，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們書面來提供。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃健豪委員的質詢。","接下來邀請林沛祥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},{"date":"2024-09-30","影片長度":"00:08:36","end_time":"2024-09-30T09:31:56+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154936","委員名稱":"許智傑","duration":516,"start_time":"2024-09-30T09:23:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b4b4b4868e3be2b5bfd473d316d525a7b6cd6776ddc26ae9b341893f7f7175f8b74f074e5a4b8f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.11471875,"end":6.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.342218750000001,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.902218750000003,"end":16.652843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.22659375,"end":24.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.039718750000002,"end":28.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.22471875,"end":29.882843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.54096875,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41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你應該 你們工程會負責主管這個部分 現在用新的科技來幫忙抓幣你可以用AI的東西 現在國外都用採購機關用AI技術 你可以去識別重複的照片 或者去識別重複的檔案"},{"start":206.328,"end":214.684,"text":"甚至應該評估採用電子化的書面驗收啦設置一個系統去阻擋這種重複照片這種作弊的方式"},{"start":215.663,"end":242.662,"text":"也就是說現在AI是最夯的一個東西啊到處都在講AI那實際上政府應該要導入AI我給工程會做參考啦如果說制度上有缺失工程會會透過整個驗收的應該有的程序啊這不是制度上的缺失這個制度已經規範很久了而是說你技術上的問題啦你們現在下面那些各單位你們下面的主管應該很清楚啦用這種假照片用假書面來驗收的"},{"start":244.36,"end":244.84,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":257.165,"end":258.827,"text":"現在我們要來徵收公共工程這種碳費公共碳費的問題我們的公共建設要如何來因應"},{"start":283.956,"end":301.764,"text":"因為現在大家會擔心公共工程已經很難飆出去了因為人工物價上漲的問題那你現在在增加碳費那會不會造成營造工程的物價指數在上漲或成本多數人的成本誰來吸收"},{"start":303.454,"end":316.283,"text":"探費的徵收是環境部的業務的確是也有業者反應這方面委員剛才所指教的問題不過正在工程會的立場我們協助整個辦理機關在"},{"start":321.147,"end":347.124,"text":"公共工程的設計階段或者是在施工階段能夠達到相關的減碳的材料或減碳的減碳的措施讓政府的這個整個減碳目標能夠來完成第一個那我跟主委交換一下意見因為第一個我們最近的那個建材已經有一些上漲像水泥那些漲了10%水泥漲很多那你現在在在增多碳費的話"},{"start":348.584,"end":369.676,"text":"那勢必那營造商的成本也會增加嘛那重點是說如何計算不是只有成不是只有成本增加那這個碳備要如何估算如果以公共工程會現在提供的那個範本就是說你各項公共工程制定一個表公共工程節能減碳減核表他現在工程會現在公布這個表這個實在太簡單了啦"},{"start":374.434,"end":400.269,"text":"根本算不出來你碳費要多少他那個都是一個什麼是或否變成是非題啦你 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這個表啊根本沒有辦法計算出需要多少碳費現在只有很少數的國營事業或者一些像水利工程等等他們有另外訂定比較可以計算出所謂的碳排量或者是他的所增加碳成本的"},{"start":402.449,"end":416.86,"text":"公共工程應該要引導各機關或者是引導業者那如何來定定計算一個公共工程的碳排量我們目前在收集整個碳排係數目前資料大概一千"},{"start":418.061,"end":445.498,"text":"一千一百個資料左右那收集完整之後在資料庫裡面會提供給各機關作為工程設計的使用就碳排系數可以換算成整個單項的碳排量那另外呢會建置一個估算系統這個估算系統就好像你一個工程有多少單項可以計算出應該有多少要多少費用多少預算所以將來透過這個估算系統可以估算整個碳排"},{"start":446.538,"end":454.024,"text":"謝謝主委這個舉例來英國2022年他就訂一個公共工程生命週期的探評局指引我覺得他這個設計非常簡單那業者或者"},{"start":459.06,"end":486.969,"text":"業主就是我們公務單位還有營造商兩雙方都很容易能夠來參照他就把一個工程概要以三個階段因為就規劃階段西部設計階段以及完工後的階段那你只要把你用的量的數字填進去他都可以幫你計算出你的碳排放大概可能跟主委你現在講的就是一個估算系統我們工程會在做的大概是差不多但這個應該要快因為什麼時候要開始徵收碳配10月吧"},{"start":488.854,"end":497.512,"text":"徵收碳費但是那匯率是下個月啊你下個月就要算了你這個系統還在建制這個月啊這個月啊"},{"start":499.234,"end":518.859,"text":"實業要開始算?這個碳費剛開始是前500碳牌大戶才徵收我們現在是針對每個公共工程可以能夠估算多少碳牌環境部大概定一個他說未來的碳費一般匯率標準大概一噸大概300到500塊"},{"start":521.622,"end":536.077,"text":"那你這樣一定會影響到這個業者的成本那過去也曾經說過那個工程會這工程會講的就你前任講的那麼你增加出來的這個減碳的成本那就是用物調"},{"start":537.418,"end":552.061,"text":"其實物條不是一個根本解決方式啦你應該還是要能夠以他能夠計算出就你剛剛講的工程會那個系統要趕快出來讓雙方業者跟營造商雙方可以計算出那你的碳成本到底多少"},{"start":552.802,"end":580.096,"text":"所以我們也在金職獎裡面新增包括利負利阿或能夠減碳的這些標準能夠增加碳費嘛所以能夠來抵減就能夠來平衡掉就是排碳的這個整個量阿謝謝主委我簡單因為我時間到了第一個就是你下個月要確定碳費以後工程會那麼應該要告訴我們你要如何因應碳費那麼造成營建物價的破動"},{"start":582.229,"end":589.5,"text":"這個委員因為公共工程已經很難標出去了再來現在比較麻煩的是已經執行已經招標已經決標或者開標中"},{"start":592.45,"end":619.926,"text":"還沒有確定得標的開標中的公共工程案那這些業者是否可以向機關要求增加預算因為你這些增出來的成本陳金德可以讓他做一個誤條嘛或者是預算的增加嘛但是新工程可能沒有問題啦因為你可以把碳拖出來的成本計算進去嘛所以你的預算計算沒有問題但是已經執行中的已經招標的決標的開標中的這些工程怎麼辦"},{"start":620.828,"end":624.651,"text":"主辦機關應該可以去橫走,要不要變更契約,或者是新增的公建案預算方面要重新考量"},{"start":641.707,"end":641.807,"text":"林俊憲議員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:12:13 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