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民主金管 立法院黨團 林楚瑛那接下來我們請第二位王委員 洪威發言"},{"start":2739.243,"end":2742.008,"text":"接下來請第三位林委員國臣發言"},{"start":2752.332,"end":2761.979,"text":"本院臺灣民眾黨針對第11屆第二次第三次的會議議程日草案除了針列報告事項12案13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22及第23案建議暫緩"},{"start":2771.525,"end":2799.172,"text":"列案外其以報告事項執行事項以及對行政院長的施政報告繼續執行今照議事日程草案以及針內報告事項通過是否有當敬請公決提案提案人臺灣民眾黨立法院黨團好謝謝那我們接下來請第4位委員莊委員瑞雄發言"},{"start":2804.912,"end":2811.714,"text":"我們請議事人員補充好嗎還是你要請中委員中委員我們請那個議事人員念一下"},{"start":2838.332,"end":2860.327,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛林國成委員的提案我終於聽懂了這個其實重點還是於在於總預算就不排進來嘛這個是台灣民眾黨的一個立場我是覺得這樣子非常可惜啦我也知道台灣民眾黨現在是低氣壓但用這樣的一個方式是非常不足取啦颱風大家都很清楚"},{"start":2861.65,"end":2887.605,"text":"南部很多在放颱風架那我相信這兩天可能我們也期待這個風能轉個向那台灣各個縣市都可以平安否則這颱風一來的話這很麻煩的一個事情我們這一次在轉預算裡面你去看我們這整個治水的預算裡面我們放了159億進去這159億不是中央政府要用它真正的一個功能是在用在各個地方這種預算你去把它擋了"},{"start":2891.277,"end":2914.147,"text":"然後淹水了這個口水就噴向中央在立法院裡面該審的預算程序完備了那你以後把它給擋掉再考慮一下第二個護理人員的能力的問題啊我看不管是中國國民黨或者台灣民眾黨大家一起在努力啊那這一次我們也編進去了護理人力的一個提升的68億我們也放進去了你也把它給擋掉了我再舉一個"},{"start":2922.438,"end":2937.245,"text":"整個會期裡面上個會期大家吵的是什麼就是中國國民黨你們整個花東三法然後台灣民眾黨你們去支持他那現在整個蘇花公路的一個安全提升我們預算把它編進去了你們也要擋如果說你認為這個總預算是不合理的"},{"start":2945.991,"end":2971.526,"text":"在委員會裡面你好好地去審議該凍結的去凍結大家講理由不合理就把它給刪除那你們現在用聯手的方式這個叫做泄恨啦國家大家的啦沒有這樣的一個方式啦那就很簡單嘛你認為那一筆預算不合理的話把它給刪掉嘛那什麼颱風的預算你也把它給刪掉啦連審你們都不審這個比刪還要可惡啊"},{"start":2977.054,"end":2994.553,"text":"台灣民眾黨今天提這個案沒有道理啦見面是談整個預算的規模的問題嘛那你現在是連副委你整個總預算都把人家給擋掉天底下有這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":2996.892,"end":3010.357,"text":"你一天到晚上個禮拜中國國民黨還有一位有良心的還手還不敢這樣舉起來喔 你們現在不是現在實在是說這國家我們整個我們整個選舉總統也選蘇聯啊這樣就過去因為藍白聯手人比較多把整個立法院傳票給它給攤換掉颱風會分黨派嗎這種治水的預算你們真的認為是不合理嗎"},{"start":3024.642,"end":3036.551,"text":"副理人力的提升你們認為是不合理嗎?荒唐啊!那就趕快來審啊!趕快審啊!趕快審啊!不是嗎?那你們你就登記發言嘛!你就登記發言嘛!"},{"start":3049.088,"end":3052.49,"text":"我要發言啦 不可以 我要發言"},{"start":3075.486,"end":3075.506,"text":"那個..."},{"start":3172.771,"end":3174.992,"text":"請各位安靜安靜你們需要協商嗎?"},{"start":3203.175,"end":3209.968,"text":"現在各位請安靜我們就依照順序請沈博洋委員發言"},{"start":3219.366,"end":3242.125,"text":"我還是要告訴國民黨要發言的話就在這邊發言就可以了並沒有很困難登記的話寫你的名字就可以你既然名字就已經擺在那邊那你就可以剛剛在第二位發言的時候好好論述你的立場而不是剛剛在下面造銷跟造謠從邊這件事情問題就出在這裡假設你今天如果真的覺得預算有問題的話那你應該針對內容來做實質的審查而不是用這樣的一個方式"},{"start":3242.845,"end":3267.262,"text":"然後再來就是因為上個禮拜已經又擋過一次兩岸條例第9條跟91條的修正那我在這邊再告訴大家我們這次提出來的一個新的版本我們針對關鍵基礎設施的一個保護又把它稍微做了一個增列那我就不知道剛剛民眾黨提出要擋下兩岸條例第9條跟91條的理由會是什麼是針對原本的立法委員的去中國這個部分想要擋"},{"start":3268.162,"end":3295.035,"text":"還是要針對關鍵基礎設施的這個擴增想要去做一番論述還是認為說在第三國的界面這個地方不妥當但我還是要再講一次我們在程序委員會已經講過很多次了法案的審查應該是在委員會你對於內容有任何的不滿你對於內容有任何的疑慮都應該排案在委員會用辯論的方式讓國人知道為什麼兩岸條例部應該做修正而不是在程序委員會擋下"},{"start":3296.135,"end":3323.181,"text":"再說一次程序委員會著重的是你今天聯署的人數有沒有達成修法理由有沒有寫前言有沒有寫那個叫做程序委員會所以程序委員會不是給你們政治表達這種政治立場的地方也不是讓你們來這邊玩弄是非的地方所以還是要再鄭重的呼籲一次不要再去擋國安的相關法案也不要再擋預算如果對預算有疑慮就請進委員會審查 謝謝"},{"start":3326.766,"end":3355.64,"text":"好謝謝那登記委員都已經發言完畢那我們現在進行處理先提案先處理那我們請問對林楚英委員的提議有無異議因為雙方這次院會議程草案的內容那朝野黨團沒有辦法達成共識那我們就依照前例那本次議程草案提報院會處理那請宣讀人民請願案"},{"start":3359.079,"end":3359.84,"text":"請問有無異議那無異議的話通過 有臨時動議"},{"start":3379.142,"end":3379.362,"text":"沒有臨時動議那散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-2","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第2次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期程序委員會第2次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第2會期第3次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","委員發言時間":"11:30:02 - 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剛林國成委員的提案我終於聽懂了這個其實重點還是在於總預算就不排進來 這個是台灣民眾黨的一個立場我是覺得這樣子非常可惜 我也知道台灣民眾黨現在是低氣壓但用這樣的一個方式是非常不足取 颱風大家都很清楚"},{"start":33.854,"end":59.786,"text":"南部很多在放颱風架那我相信這兩天可能我們也期待這個風能轉個向那台灣各個縣市都可以平安否則這颱風一來的話這很麻煩的一個事情我們這一次在轉預算裡面你去看我們這整個治水的預算裡面我們放了159億進去這159億不是中央政府要用它真正的一個功能是在用在各個地方這種預算你去把它擋了"},{"start":63.462,"end":86.329,"text":"然後淹水了這個口水就噴向中央在立法院裡面該審的預算程序完備了那你以後把它給擋掉再考慮一下第二個護理人員的人力的問題我看不管是中國國民黨或者台灣民眾黨大家一起再努力那這一次我們也編進去了護理人力的一個提升的68億我們也放進去了你也把它給擋掉了我再舉一個"},{"start":94.622,"end":109.547,"text":"整個會期裡面上個會期大家吵的是什麼就是中國國民黨你們整個花東三法然後台灣民眾黨你們去支持他那現在整個樹花公路的一個安全提升我們預算把它編進去了你們也要擋你們也要擋如果說你認為這個總預算是不合理的"},{"start":118.195,"end":143.711,"text":"在委員會裡面你好好地去把他審議該凍結的去凍結大家講理由不合理就把他給刪除那你們現在用聯手的方式這個叫做泄恨啦國家大家的啦沒有這樣的一個方式啦那就很簡單嘛你認為那一筆預算不合理的話把他給刪掉嘛那什麼颱風的預算你也把他給刪掉啦連審你們都不審這個比刪還要可惡啊"},{"start":148.117,"end":166.737,"text":"台灣民眾黨今天提這個案沒有道理啦見面是談整個預算的規模的問題嘛那你現在是連副委你整個總預算都把人家給擋掉天底下有這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":169.076,"end":182.541,"text":"你一天到晚上個禮拜中國國民黨還有一位有良心的還手還不敢這樣舉起來喔 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報告完畢好 謝謝接下來我們請楊委員窮英質詢巡達時間30分鐘謝謝院會主席"},{"start":1922.176,"end":1922.216,"text":"響鐘委員好"},{"start":1946.98,"end":1963.176,"text":"院長好昨天中午發布了我們的電又在漲在這樣的情況之下告訴我們這一次民生先不漲那一次產業界漲所以本期要請教院長"},{"start":1964.77,"end":1964.85,"text":"主席"},{"start":1985.813,"end":1999.303,"text":"會不會衝擊到我們整個經濟鏈會不會衝擊到物價指數的一個提升請教院長好 三句話第一句台電的財務兩個因素一個是長期售電是在他的成本底下"},{"start":2000.143,"end":2023.822,"text":"第2個因素他負擔了很多政策的補貼的政策作用像是醫院啊學校都由台電來吸收所以我們正式調整第一個我們希望反映成本所以把他的受電電價在工業用戶大戶的這個過程比較接近他的成本但是還是比起我們競爭的其他亞洲鄰近國家還要低一些另外我們希望"},{"start":2025.257,"end":2043.088,"text":"穩定物價還有照顧民生這兩個要同時區塊要達到所以一些小商家小商店傳統產業比較低階的這個部分我們盡量不漲他或許有些只擋到7%希望用這個方式一方面穩定物價一方面反映成本讓財電的成"},{"start":2044.83,"end":2047.392,"text":"你這個由波普之前我們郭部長說"},{"start":2059.589,"end":2081.782,"text":"臺電應該要自給自足但是我們目前所做的是公務部門的一個公務預算撥補第二個把人民當提款機的漲價變相的雖然你在工業的部分漲價但是民生不漲但是會不會影響到我們整個物價指數的提升剛剛你沒回答本席的議題所以本席要請問你"},{"start":2082.722,"end":2101.554,"text":"你能不能答應在你目前的情況之下明年你還會用公務預算撥補嗎明年你還會再漲價嗎 電價請說公務預算的撥補現階段我們還有一個追加預算在大院裡面那是要彌補過去財務的虧損還有重要的現在民生用電的補貼要用這個方向來處理"},{"start":2108.098,"end":2133.472,"text":"民生用電怎麼補貼我們民生用電2點多元遠遠低於現在的發電成本所以總院長你也來自過民意的洗禮過所以你應該更了解所以本席要請問你的就是說目前你的能源政策你的電價是如何的來做第一個漲價第二個用公務預算來補本席要請教到目前為止你這麼做你以後還會這麼做嗎會不會"},{"start":2135.313,"end":2141.477,"text":"會不會?會不會?所以本期一開頭就請問你你工業漲了之後會不會影響物價?會不會?我們拭目以待我從一開始希望得到你的答案未來你會不會還是這兩個方向漲價跟這個公務預算撥補你的方針是不是如此?"},{"start":2161.561,"end":2165.943,"text":"這是現在必須進行的方向 現在必須進行的方向 未來會不會 未來你的方針是不是"},{"start":2176.737,"end":2198.764,"text":"兩年讓財務健全啊 那我們就拭目以待我還是要警惕的 我還是警惕的提醒你要看我們的物價指數 我們的民生生活到底怎麼樣所以請委員支持我們階段性的做法你告訴我們兩年希望給台電的這個債務預算可以好 我們拭目以待所以請委員支持我們階段性的做法 我們才達得到本席請教"},{"start":2202.918,"end":2221.004,"text":"守護下一代我們要謝謝你們接受這個本席的建言因為本席一再關心我們從女性的HPV疫苗的公費施打到目前為止所以也告訴我們女性如果打了這個八成我們就可以考慮"},{"start":2221.804,"end":2224.646,"text":"公費接種HPV疫苗是不是我們在明年開始是不分性別開始施打"},{"start":2241.881,"end":2268.687,"text":"謝謝委員我記得委員已經不只一次提到這樣的問題我們關心下一代而且關心的下一代應該不分性別應該同時關心但是因為這個HPV這個疫苗它有性別上某種的差異所以我們從107年從女性國中女生就開始施打現在不是這樣子告訴我們錢不夠所以女性打了八成我們再來考慮男性這個都過了我們一切感恩請教育營明年"},{"start":2271.207,"end":2299.939,"text":"我們是不是不分男女就打HPV114年國中男生我們為了達到WHO消除子宮腎癌90 70 90這個目標所以在ACIP已經在113年5月24號通過決議要將HPV接種疫苗擴展到國中的男學生所以有關於將國中男學生納入公會補助目前已編列在預算裡面"},{"start":2300.999,"end":2315.269,"text":"這個就是本席要謝謝的因為當時現在的邱部長也是邱立法委員我們一起努力一直推動一直推動這個就是我們一定要好好的來守護但是在施打前我還是建議就明年我們開始"},{"start":2317.671,"end":2319.093,"text":"接下來本席要請教院長"},{"start":2337.273,"end":2354.54,"text":"2025年我看到我們編列的預算927億也就是長照整體預算那所以呢在這樣的一個情況之下我們看到你這個長照逐年一定會增加預算因為我們人口老化非常的嚴重"},{"start":2355.08,"end":2355.4,"text":"律師律師"},{"start":2375.782,"end":2398.98,"text":"院長你有沒有我上個月才剛做好部長你有沒有當然有當然有齁我們要鼓勵大家一定要定期的做健康檢查這個是預防重疑治療那所以呢本校請教你有沒有做骨質疏鬆的一個檢查院長你有沒有這次沒有這次沒有那部長你有嗎這次有嗎"},{"start":2401.251,"end":2423.06,"text":"我也沒有接受過好 我們實質來討論高齡者的沉默殺手就是骨質疏鬆症很多說長者你不要跌倒他不是願意跌倒我們要孝順他就是不平衡骨質疏鬆所以本期再給你一個數字也就是65歲以上民眾的骨質密度"},{"start":2423.84,"end":2445.769,"text":"有一個部位量測出有骨質疏鬆的比例是14.1%換句話說院長7個人就有一個骨質疏鬆7個就有一個我們再看到我們很緊張的也就是說長者萬一跌倒骨折尤其部長理事醫生更清楚他如果臥床"},{"start":2446.429,"end":2447.31,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":2465.56,"end":2469.123,"text":"好 報告委員 我想股松一定要 要防止股松要從右臉的時候"},{"start":2489.15,"end":2491.452,"text":"最怕就是拔豆"},{"start":2519.79,"end":2519.93,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":2548.951,"end":2549.831,"text":"臺灣老化速度是世界第一"},{"start":2574.245,"end":2598.837,"text":"很驚訝很驚訝臺灣老化的速度是世界第一所以我拜託你65歲以上的長者你讓他補職篩檢疏鬆篩檢的納入你絕對可以讓你的長照可以省掉很多的資源以及幫助很多的家庭好不好你去檢討是不是你多久可以告訴我們納入"},{"start":2600.236,"end":2613.282,"text":"只要這個衛福部專業的報告出來之後我們認為有需要我們就來看看裁員怎麼來籌措好 謝謝院長部長多久告訴我們我們馬上回去就把這個議題我們先從65歲以上的長者來做專家多久評估告訴我時間"},{"start":2620.051,"end":2646.549,"text":"我們大概希望在一個月內能夠開會我謝謝部長一個月內你開會有一個方向我們就先從65歲以上的長者來做檢驗好不好就從院長所說的專家認為需要真正可以幫助我們積極來研議謝謝對謝謝院長跟部長的一個支持那所以本席要在這邊要跟你討論的也就是我們的點子問題"},{"start":2648.13,"end":2669.037,"text":"點子問題0.95三黨決議通過在立法院通過院長明年度會不會編組趁現在預算從議的這個階段因為立法院不能增加預算所以在這樣的情況之下是三黨在立院裡頭"},{"start":2670.772,"end":2686.047,"text":"決議通過 我想邱部長你自己本身在第9屆第5次會議的時候你也特別臨時提案希望點子到一血汗醫護啊 這個影響非常的大所以在這樣的情況之下我拜託院長"},{"start":2687.188,"end":2687.909,"text":"我先報告委員再請院長指導"},{"start":2707.318,"end":2734.183,"text":"那我首先感謝大家對醫療環境的改善我想所有的醫界、醫護界都深感感謝您來自醫界阿所以你更了解阿所以你應該要極力去編組阿當然那我真的在這邊非常感謝行政院院長行政院的團隊真的在預算的編列裡面一直積極的來投向以改善我們整個醫療的環境報數明年會不會編組"},{"start":2736.664,"end":2738.405,"text":"請針對本期的提問點值1.0.95現在已經 院長你知道嗎現在有1.0.82欸"},{"start":2763.393,"end":2780.712,"text":"這個嚴重白色巨塔萬一垮掉就沒有人有辦法負責的請告訴我立法院院長不好意思邱部長我要請教院長立法院三黨決議是全民共識是全民共識明年會不會編組1.0.95請教院長"},{"start":2784.175,"end":2801.29,"text":"我知道大院委員是站在為一屆不理屆爭取更多的權益但是我們考量的是今年的這個健保的給付已經相當高額那如果達到1.1塊那是不可能要達到0.95要達到0.95總額預算9000多億已經比去年多了"},{"start":2811.465,"end":2814.787,"text":"院長你這個回答讓我傷心阿邱部長告訴我們0.95你只要增加700億你只要增加700億"},{"start":2834.366,"end":2839.39,"text":"你為了一個能源政策非核家園的神主牌你每一年1000億的公務卻撥補還漲我們當人民當體管機你只要增加700億你可以照顧2300萬的人民你竟然告訴我們我已經9000多了院長你在冷靜的思考我們針對5點0.95的點子"},{"start":2864.21,"end":2880.602,"text":"7百億照顧全國的民眾2300萬人你告訴我逼不出來我會傷心耶人民繳那麼多納稅錢最普遍的資源最公平的分配報告院長換我給你報告你做得來嗎你明年會不會編114億的總額已經增加將近700億了"},{"start":2888.78,"end":2914.067,"text":"所以你現在告訴我的是說你做不來是嗎點子1.0.95明年會不會達到請告訴我報告委員因為從明年的總額實質上已經增加了我們盤算一樣增加了712億其實也符合到達0.95所需要的財務總額次是陳時中部長他從德國拿回來"},{"start":2916.27,"end":2920.075,"text":"這個過程到現在 血汗衣物已經產生社會現象"},{"start":2921.363,"end":2945.325,"text":"院長我還是誠意的建議你趁著現在正在從議預算請你趕快編組明年的1.0.95請注意聽這是在立法院三黨藍綠白全民共識的議決如果連立法院三黨共識的議決行政院都不編"},{"start":2947.523,"end":2961.625,"text":"那這是什麼政府能夠最平均資源去照顧全國的民眾我再一次請教院長明年立法院三讀通過立法院通過的三黨決議"},{"start":2963.147,"end":2967.712,"text":"就目前的財務來看就健保的總額給付來看明年要達到0.95應該有它實際上的困難"},{"start":2979.944,"end":2988.209,"text":"我傷心阿我傷心阿我傷心阿你剛一個行政院長問我錢從哪裡來你這個政府出了什麼事情阿你一方面要提高我們的使用一方面要增加我們的減數這個是絕對矛盾的這個絕對矛盾的邱部長你冷靜"},{"start":3005.479,"end":3022.472,"text":"你不用回答了你絕對站在醫務在全民健康的立場上面請你用你的專業建議給我們卓院長明年編組明年我們有信心達到0.95我們在我們整個醫界的努力之下"},{"start":3022.992,"end":3032.759,"text":"那你怎麼跟卓院長兩個不同調啊?因為卓院長他...你告訴我是明年1點可以1點95是不是?所以邱部長你跟我回答的是明年會達到1點0.95是不是?你告訴我是不是邱部長?我必須...這樣我想...就可以..."},{"start":3050.271,"end":3051.892,"text":"院長你聽院長你聽你聽你的部位首長院長"},{"start":3070.839,"end":3079.384,"text":"他答應朝這個目標他認為可以成功我們本來就朝這個目標啊我們要各方面來努力接下來我們請教來超思現在監察委員說但是我們看到112年9月3號9月3號告訴我們說他不是一人公司"},{"start":3099.053,"end":3126.789,"text":"徐副長你請回但是我們看到監察委員這麼說所以我也請教院長一個人分四三角當時告訴我們這個公司很好50萬可以接收那麼大的一個金額所以請教院長法務部長在這裡吧法務部我要首先院長您聽喔我要請教這個一切都是由農業部代為處理嗎"},{"start":3128.868,"end":3151.519,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下他即可以獲得3800萬的手續費所以請教法務部長整個超時案是不是符合圖令相關的法律要件請教部長有沒有跟委員報告那個超時案現在臺北地檢署在正班中那這個有沒有相關的這個範型我想那個整個臺北地檢署檢察官會妥為"},{"start":3152.259,"end":3153.06,"text":"所以現在檢調在調查當中"},{"start":3168.991,"end":3170.032,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":3187.383,"end":3217.043,"text":"很早在整個採購過程中已經做了行政調查但是行政調查中有關於但這個貿易商的部分我們是主動移情檢調去調查的結果跟監察院長跟監察院查的完全不一樣所以我歡喜聽到院長你說要調查清楚這也是全民共識我們希望勿往勿中也不要誣蔑但是也要還原真相因為一個政府不能再有這樣的事件發生所以我們期待院長你說的調查清楚"},{"start":3217.664,"end":3218.806,"text":"現在我們面臨到這麼多的問題"},{"start":3228.752,"end":3248.443,"text":"不管是都市人口集中在整個我們的土地正義以及行政的部分在22縣市最來位現在還有9個縣市他還沒有送上來甚至有去做調整的在這樣的情況之下內政部長曾經在我們的內政委員會我問他他說這個有必要延"},{"start":3249.643,"end":3271.512,"text":"他說認為有必要言所以我們現在國土法目前為您大的困境中央跟地方有9個縣市還沒有提所以換句話說溝通還沒有好第二個我們農業發展的地區有很多相關的條件不符尤其在六都裡頭縣市合併之後差距非常的大在這樣的一個情況那麼接下來就是"},{"start":3272.492,"end":3292.119,"text":"重疊的部分重疊的部分如農地跟我們的國保地重疊的區域要怎麼做處理現在還不清不楚所以本席要請教國土法的實施目的是要在未來的土地要有正義它有很重要的代表性這是一個非常重要的大工程 是嗎"},{"start":3292.759,"end":3293.24,"text":"會不會延後實施"},{"start":3314.345,"end":3328.742,"text":"國土法的實施有它法定的時程我們原來應該要照這個時程來進行但目前我們遇到困難成都委員所說有9個縣市並沒有向這個功能圖表送上來所以沒有辦法現在做一個統一整合的規劃"},{"start":3329.523,"end":3335.387,"text":"法律條文本身一億的部分也在做試圖的說明跟溝通好像這個進展目前來看是受到很多的挑戰"},{"start":3350.857,"end":3375.169,"text":"所以我充分建議院長在溝通未完成地方政府還沒有辦法送上來的時候我們應當要延後執行你認同嗎但是早一天能夠將國土有效的整體運用還沒有溝通之前當然這是我們的目標但是在沒有溝通執行者也不知道怎麼執行民眾也非常恐慌我們應該要延後你可以認同嗎"},{"start":3376.348,"end":3404.237,"text":"我是希望 國會延後內政部 農業部還是繼續跟地方溝通當然要溝通時間的掌握現在對我們來講是非常困難的是有困難的你也認定是有困難在明年4月內政部長也認為在內政委員會也認為有困難所以本期具體再次建議也就是在溝通未完成的時候那應該要延後執行那因為國土法本身有重大的意義有意義的工作通常都比較困難但是我們還是直接進行"},{"start":3405.977,"end":3420.24,"text":"請市長稍微回答一下我們一個結論 就是在溝通會完成之前 請院長 延後質詢我跟委員報告 我們今天有一個議會 在進行溝通當中那個嘉義市跟苗栗縣已經都同意要送來所以請回來 對不對時間暫停啊 你要還我20秒來那個 市長請回"},{"start":3429.161,"end":3431.604,"text":"接下來我要請問臺中藍縣捷運拼2034年 院長我們這一條藍色捷運等好久好久好久好久十幾年"},{"start":3452.984,"end":3480.7,"text":"我們的交通部長林交通部長來自臺中現任的部長也來自臺中他當議員的時候也全力支持嘛 對不對陳部長你也是全力推動所以我們好不容易好不容易兩週前旅刊了那麼昨天我也在我們的這個工程會也跟主委討論過我要請教我們修正完成之後送到這個這個工程會來院長你是不是指示盡速審定完成"},{"start":3481.728,"end":3485.523,"text":"讓我們可以在2034年如期的來通車請教"},{"start":3487.317,"end":3492.078,"text":"陳部長你要清楚一點啦不是這樣子的工程會昨天你答應我在10月底以前把他審議完均是嗎"},{"start":3514.482,"end":3515.583,"text":"10月底可以完成基本設計的審查"},{"start":3529.653,"end":3530.233,"text":"議員長好嗎 你來督促好嗎"},{"start":3552.113,"end":3560.523,"text":"一切都要按照目前的進度循序進行進行到最後已經到了像剛剛主委所說的這個程度"},{"start":3562.003,"end":3587.491,"text":"那當然就會進到另外一個成熟期我們就往回前推所以你督促我們專案我也謝謝工程會工程會跟交通部都很用心來做這個事情全力來把它完成10月底我們審議完成然後我們在今年年底可以實質工程進度陳部長這也是我們一起大家努力推動的我們來努力全力努力接下來我要問台中舊三線鐵道副使鐵馬先行"},{"start":3588.581,"end":3612.87,"text":"我相信陳部長在當時當議員的時候不管縣議員市議員都全力的推動而且在林佳龍部長的時候他也全力去看過李孟苑部長也去看過王國才部長也都去看過院長大家去看過都說這個是臺灣的寶貝美的不得了所以我們一定要全力推動但是經過了三個部長到現在第四個部長"},{"start":3613.55,"end":3615.652,"text":"臺中舊三線鐵道以舊泰安鐵道文化園區還有泰安溪鐵橋8號隧道"},{"start":3629.326,"end":3629.906,"text":"請教請教我們院長"},{"start":3657.895,"end":3670.553,"text":"鐵道復始 鐵馬先行事關我們地方的發展跟觀光我們預估一年可以十幾萬的人觀光客進度到我們的地方來這是我們地方期待請教院長要不要全力的支持"},{"start":3675.151,"end":3701.091,"text":"地方上好的一個觀光的產業跟它的整個整體規劃都是政府在推動觀光重要的過程那至於說地方上像是鐵道、富士、鐵馬先行這樣的方式請部長來說一下是我想這一段其實有一段已經是有鐵馬了這邊其實我自己也去騎過非常的漂亮那你說前面有三個部長到那邊看過我也再陪您再看一次我們繼續來推動好不好"},{"start":3701.271,"end":3705.413,"text":"我希望拜託院長跟我去看不要三位部長看完都說很好全力支持數字好不容易已經出來現在就由"},{"start":3728.227,"end":3749.379,"text":"現任的陳部長來接棒 把他完成 競速完成好嗎 院長我請部長來規劃 那整個過程我們去做深入的瞭解好 深入的瞭解就是權力的支持嘛 對不對我們也希望將這個好消息告訴我們的地方因為除了我們的鐵道活化 還要增加觀光人數我要再次的謝謝我也要再次的好 謝謝謝謝王委員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":3758.769,"end":3782.29,"text":"接下來請吳秉瑞委員質詢主席麻煩請行政院卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":3792.639,"end":3814.875,"text":"副委員好 院長早 跟你請教對於中國的經濟狀況 前一陣子惡化的很嚴重包括大家都知道他的幾個大的房地產公司都出問題 有的甚至已經被清算要倒閉"},{"start":3817.866,"end":3845.352,"text":"所以這個房地產有這個暴跌的情況我以前常常開玩笑說全世界打房最成功的國家就是中國他把房價打到腰斬甚至還沒有人要這是當然是一個笑話那再來就是說第二個就是他的國家無論中央或地方的這個債務都暴增那今年的失業率高漲有一陣子還蓋牌還不講不讓人家知道當然他現在的數據提出來都是美化"},{"start":3846.138,"end":3872.157,"text":"那之前一年多還有通貨緊縮的這樣的狀況然後再加上他又弄了一大堆的國安法案比如說亂抓台灣人啊然後他發生了這個深圳啊還有這個中國發生好幾件殺害這殺害這外國外國人的這些事件那使得很多的外資包括台資也都一直在撤離"},{"start":3873.278,"end":3887.333,"text":"這個是他之前的經濟狀況狀況很嚴重但是他上個禮拜他現在弄了一個非常猛的藥這個猛的藥猛到什麼地步呢猛到"},{"start":3888.376,"end":3915.726,"text":"我舉其中我覺得蠻離譜的就是他的央行可以循環借貸讓人去買進股票增持自己的股票為了要讓他的股市上漲不要跌居然讓央行直接間接的進入股市那這個當然短期內會很有效果但是其實這就是所謂的無毛印鈔了他的貨幣供給量"},{"start":3917.403,"end":3941.563,"text":"沒有一個根據不停的在增加所以大水漫灌短期可能會有一些效果果然這幾天看到上海的重症跟這個香港的股市的確都有大幅反彈的這樣的跡象但是這個是短期跡象如果你沒有實質內容支撐撐不下去的"},{"start":3944.12,"end":3946.421,"text":"所以我現在就是要請教那到底面對中國這樣的經濟情勢"},{"start":3971.394,"end":3999.064,"text":"我覺得他這一次的這個大水漫灌之後的這個將來的通膨更可以預期了將來資產能不能撐得住不知道但是通膨是絕對可以看得到的後果我想了解的是台灣到底在中國有多少的投資跟多少的這個產業上面現在的狀況是如何能夠幫助他們能夠離開這一個不合理的這個經營環境"},{"start":4005.479,"end":4009.808,"text":"委員一直很關心 不只是臺灣 包括兩岸的經濟狀況"},{"start":4012.042,"end":4031.679,"text":"冰凍三尺非一日之寒如果一個人質色彩這麼重又用軍國主義對外在擴張那本身又是黨國控制雖然它經過經濟的崛起數十年來有一定的程度但是這幾個因素一直存在的話它必須必定面臨很嚴重的社會衝擊那現在已經來臨了"},{"start":4033.3,"end":4056.981,"text":"下任何的猛躍到後來都可能是一個沒有辦法回頭的畸形發展台灣在很多的產業因為跟中國有非常密切的過去的連結跟關係我們也無法一時間把它斷絕但是我們也知道有很多的產業包括金融體系都有很多的在中國的投資甚至很多的曝險但這個很多基於這個"},{"start":4059.022,"end":4083.248,"text":"銀業上產業上的我們也不宜在這邊多說但是我是認為我們的經濟部我們的金管會都有相當的掌握我了解說你知道這樣的危機有沒有在做準備因應經濟部跟金管會都有這些投資的對象本國的產業都有相當的掌握當然有的跟不是那麼直接相關跟在場的兩位部長"},{"start":4084.69,"end":4100.283,"text":"像9月25號臺灣的34項農產品他又給你停止零關稅他老是拿他的這些經貿上面的這些惡劣的手段來當他政治上面他的攻防做政治上面的目的操作這一點"},{"start":4101.502,"end":4126.576,"text":"除了這三四項之後﹖後面可能還會繼續再來﹖我們政府有準備要怎麼樣子的我們清楚說這個除了用經濟的壓迫之外﹖它還有政治的選擇﹖比如開放某一個地方指定哪一個地方可以﹖或是要求哪一個地方不可以﹖這個是政治上的選擇﹖這個是你我都了解的﹖我現在是要問說政府準備要怎麼樣子面對跟因應"},{"start":4127.868,"end":4147.465,"text":"這一點能夠報告經濟部我們都每次他有這個動作之前之後我們都掌握後來也有一些作為甚至我們有預留了一些該有的做法但是不一定每次都會拿出來用請經濟部來談一下報告委員我想我們在經濟部裡面已經在之前就已經有成立這個投資台灣事務所"},{"start":4148.546,"end":4171.276,"text":"執行歡迎臺商回臺投資方案基於這個方案 我想剛才這個委員所講的這個農業的這個問題我們面對這個問題幫助臺灣的這些產業希望他能夠在加值的這個活動轉向其他的這個市場不要只是看這個中國的市場這一點我們有積極在做"},{"start":4172.276,"end":4197.185,"text":"是 那剛剛問的這個農產品事項 我知道你的那個標準當然應該就是移轉市場嘛齁 那我們就是 如果中國這個是不是一個好的市場 我們也可以轉到別的市場去 但是那個是比較長期的短期之間馬上就受害 因為他常常不跟你磋商 就突然之間提出一個這樣作為這個攻擊的武器啊 那不知道陸委會跟農業部這邊有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":4198.095,"end":4215.206,"text":"我跟委員報告就是其實中國的市場是一個高風險的市場從100年開始他除了用不符合國際貿易的暫停我們的輸出還用所謂的那個輸送食品的註冊所以這三四年來其實我們已經積極的開拓中國以外的高端市場"},{"start":4215.706,"end":4241.151,"text":"我舉個實際的數字就是在109年的時候我們中國以外的市場的產值是38.6億到了去年的話是43.6億大概整整的多了5億那同一個時間我們對中國的輸出的部分已經降到了5億左右所以相對的就是說我們對中國市場的依賴程度也越來越少"},{"start":4241.901,"end":4261.258,"text":"當然我剛剛講的長期是你一定是要分散風險然後要到比較高端那當然我們自己的產品比如說冷鏈的建構使我們的產品能夠更優質也才有辦法賣到更高端的市場這長期是對的但是對於短期的因應阿對於這些馬上受損的這些人有什麼樣子的做法"},{"start":4263.06,"end":4277.43,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛講臺商面臨到空前的中國大陸的這個整個系統性的危機我們有三個做法那第一個部分當然就是讓他來回臺投資轉型升級"},{"start":4278.23,"end":4303.173,"text":"也協助他全球布局這就是剛剛您也提到這個人身的安全的風險這個在大陸這個風險是明顯提高那我們除了海基會跟他們保持聯繫關懷之外我們陸委會也希望我們臺商或是臺幹或是他的眷屬臺生還有臺師在中國大陸的我們的臺灣人去中國大陸"},{"start":4303.814,"end":4305.595,"text":"這個呼籲全世界都在跟他講叫他不要傾銷"},{"start":4327.992,"end":4344.383,"text":"你的製造業人你這個無限制的專注在哪個領域全用國家的力量去投資然後傾銷全世界全世界都在跟他呼籲這個國家是蠻不講理的國家這個政府是沒有不合理的政府對中國不要抱這樣的期望必須要在知道說他是會做最壞的選擇之下我們要怎麼做"},{"start":4346.664,"end":4347.204,"text":"好那我來你們"},{"start":4375.896,"end":4379.946,"text":"委員長不好意思請幾個部長先回座我請今晚會主委來回答一下"},{"start":4383.101,"end":4405.893,"text":"金管會請你要說明最近金融機構在中國的監理政策之前他曾經講到我們這邊要增資或是在他那邊這個營業額超過50%以上的都只要他在別的市場要幹嘛都要經過他的同意這個聽說雷聲大雨點響但是到現在他也沒有核准郭一家那台灣這些所謂的KY這些公司怎麼辦"},{"start":4407.923,"end":4420.29,"text":"這變成兩個公婆啊受我們的管理然後又要受他的管理使得他很多的財政的模式沒有辦法處理那這個問題現在有解決的方案嗎"},{"start":4421.78,"end":4441.811,"text":"現在我們對在大陸的這些的曝險特別我先跟委員報告一下就先從金融機構來講的話我們現在是希望他能夠持續的關注風險然後下降這個比率我想過去幾年來這個都非常的顯著我想從很多數據都看得出來"},{"start":4442.611,"end":4445.251,"text":"負險的比例 譬如說國有銀行負險的比例是在下降但是他的總體金額還是很高"},{"start":4472.277,"end":4473.887,"text":"因為我們大家的這幾年我們經濟發達資本"},{"start":4476.363,"end":4503.881,"text":"弄得很高的時候所以那個比例下降很大的因素是因為我們的BASE大了那但是他原來的他的那個額度還是蠻高的對最高的時候到一兆八千多億現在是大概九千六百億左右九千六百億也是一個很大的錢對但是就是相對的我們整個承受力因為當年大概是比如說最高曾經來到淨值的70%嘛那時候我們的那個淨值才2.2兆現在到了4.6兆對啊所以BASE等於擴大了一倍啊"},{"start":4504.381,"end":4528.496,"text":"對我們還是持續的在下降這個其實我覺得這是一個風險還有就是我們整個產業隨著政策往其他國家我現在不是只有要提醒中國現在香港被美國參眾兩院在去年12月通過國防授權法把它列為海外敵對勢力然後9月10號美國的眾議院又通過了香港經濟貿易辦公室的認證法這個認證法是很厲害的"},{"start":4534.226,"end":4562.612,"text":"他等於要取消香港在美國三個考慮要取消住在那邊的辦公單位那再來就是參議院如果通過現在眾議院已經通過了參議院如果通過再來就是美國總統要不要批准在這樣的狀況下這是很有可能通過的我們或許對中國的這個曝險是一件事台灣有多少銀行"},{"start":4564.091,"end":4575.485,"text":"不論是公股的或是民間的在香港有這麼多的辦事機構在香港逐漸變成中國的內地城市的這個演變的過程中我們的因應方式"},{"start":4576.567,"end":4604.102,"text":"以及我們所要面臨的風險這個有沒有考慮在內在上個會期的時候委員在委員會上也有指證這件事情我們回去就把那個把中國跟香港一併考慮上是有本來是分開來處理像我們對香港的部分我們也開始有做一些比較嚴密的這些的考慮像剛剛那個委員提到我們現在在香港國營的部分大概有19家大概設有19家這個分行一家子行"},{"start":4605.587,"end":4618.555,"text":"保險只有兩個據點相對的這部分確實是比較多我們的證券相關行業的加速就更多那是過去有一些金融市場歷史的因素我想這部分我們也持續透過很多方式提醒他們風險的改變這我們會持續來做"},{"start":4622.637,"end":4635.057,"text":"那你有掌握我們台灣在香港掛牌的上市公司有多少嗎?我們現在台資在香港掛牌大概有61家那其中有12家是上市櫃公司同時在那邊做有11家是上櫃公司"},{"start":4637.841,"end":4638.341,"text":"我們會很關心台灣金融市場的體質跟健全"},{"start":4667.387,"end":4673.729,"text":"還有臺灣的臺商也非常的敏感像我們歡迎臺商回臺投資的行動方案就已經有超過300家臺商帶1.3兆的資金回臺"},{"start":4714.349,"end":4720.794,"text":"好,謝謝國務委員還有卓院長下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢主席我們請這個院長跟衛福部部長"},{"start":4740.827,"end":4744.449,"text":"請左院長備詢,還有外府部部長政務委員好這個部長我為你感到很擔心"},{"start":4760.609,"end":4761.59,"text":"可不可能"},{"start":4781.567,"end":4782.508,"text":"報告委員 因為行政院也很"},{"start":4797.399,"end":4816.792,"text":"盡力在幫忙所以醫界非常感動所以醫界也會全力以赴在分級醫療在各種醫療的制度來努力來配合前面配合完成沒有問題今年6月健保點資要達到0.95那預算就編進來吧院長這個我們做的預算這個也是一個原因之一"},{"start":4817.832,"end":4823.516,"text":"前一陣子總統那邊剛剛發生一個事情現在院長這邊又這樣好像打臉的話我為一個可能這個這麼關心醫界又了解醫療體系的部長感到擔心"},{"start":4848.13,"end":4865.177,"text":"我們這個臺灣的醫療是相當的有名這全世界也算是可受信任的沒問題吧部長我們醫療的人才醫療的科技發展可以說是世界級的"},{"start":4865.879,"end":4866.039,"text":"入客到金門"},{"start":4885.512,"end":4886.634,"text":"幾月開始幾號開始你知道嗎"},{"start":4898.817,"end":4900.679,"text":"昨年7月到今年5月光光"},{"start":4925.543,"end":4953.601,"text":"光是以這個醫療的這個簽證來到金門的人數有多少人你知道嗎以就醫的大陸大陸地區的這個人民用小山通道金門來就醫啊至少有331件500多件這算是接近了那原因是什麼事實上我們金門醫療是缺乏的但是為什麼大陸人民還願意到金門來就醫你知道嗎 院長"},{"start":4954.962,"end":4968.796,"text":"相對比較一方面觀光一方面就醫但是我們金門醫療也不會比下門進步阿為什麼他要到金門來就醫有我們的特色有我們的專科阿什麼特色好像是在生殖醫學方面"},{"start":4975.704,"end":4986.118,"text":"國內醫療體系除了健保以外做人生殖醫學是自費的他們自己要花錢我們台灣的醫療又是比較進步而且獲得信任的所以我們應該要發揮這方面的優勢"},{"start":4989.582,"end":5011.49,"text":"建保典值是全民的這個醫療嘛這個醫療平權大家都應該照顧到所以應該要盡力幫醫界爭取這個不然我們的醫護人員實在是血汗醫護非常辛苦但是在我們有優勢的部分我們可以用自費的吸引全世界各地來的那因為金門的地理位置的關係當然大陸吸引人過來這個這個部分呢這個是應該是可以這個再加強的嘛對吧"},{"start":5013.328,"end":5014.309,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5033.779,"end":5037.12,"text":"陸委會有什麼規劃目前什麼想法陸委會沒有陸委會一直都很支持金門"},{"start":5056.529,"end":5075.282,"text":"您是院長,一院之長,您的最高行政首長的想法最重要我想只要對金門老百姓有好處,那兼顧國家安全只要能夠復國立民的政策,我們對於金門我知道你都支持,我要請問我們卓院長,卓院長這個部分支持嗎?"},{"start":5076.991,"end":5095.075,"text":"我認為我們現在有一個離島建設條例所以委員有提到如果是醫療的部分是不是要請衛福部跟國發會來再進一步的研究看看如何在這個條例底下有沒有必要做什麼樣的調整幫助金門地區這一方面的醫療專區醫療產業的發展這是正向的嗎"},{"start":5102.012,"end":5102.232,"text":"贊用台灣的醫療這個優勢"},{"start":5123.366,"end":5144.914,"text":"我會請衛福部跟國發會來看看如何對金門地區的這個醫療產業能夠有幫忙的那在現行這個離島健身條例底下如何來發展這個方向如果離島健身條例有不足的地方我們應該來做適度的修改吧我一直覺得法令不足我們適度的鬆綁法例那是現在政府重要的工作"},{"start":5145.674,"end":5170.247,"text":"謝謝院長 謝謝您的承諾我們來提一下另外一個就是有關醫療平權這個部分這個我想請問衛福部長 其他部長可以請回這個有一個衛福推了一個住院友善照護公聘制度就是住院整合照護示範計畫就是照護公聘這個制度您知道吧就是4個病患集資每個人付1200元一天4800元可以一起照護衛福有這個計畫對吧"},{"start":5174.184,"end":5189.792,"text":"是的這個計畫經過幾年的一個推行現在效果反應很好但是因為金門我們也非常希望有這樣的一個服務可是他是需要那個照護員在金門也請不到照護員所以我們一定要協助齁"},{"start":5197.457,"end":5202.687,"text":"金門醫院來擬聘人力的聘用方案所以你有沒有什麼具體的計畫這個有關這個醫療平權這個要住院整合照護計畫制度"},{"start":5209.178,"end":5228.476,"text":"我們在114年有特別要加強這個部分那招募人力的計畫因為你們有沒有相關的獎勵計畫讓有一些人願意到離島來從事這樣的工作我以前事實上也提過或者是當地人願意因為這個照護員的待遇是比較在這裡是比較好的然後所以願意轉做這個照護員的工作"},{"start":5229.456,"end":5252.902,"text":"事實上人力是還是有,當地不是沒有人我真的非常敬佩委員,過去對金門各種醫療、人民的照顧非常的周全那也關係到這個部分,這個真的是也可以幫助病人所以我們一定會全力來推展這個計畫我們希望明年就能夠讓金門上路這樣子可以喔,明年是114年嘛,114年就要上路所以你如果說招募到人有可能是"},{"start":5253.522,"end":5254.263,"text":"明年一定會上路吧"},{"start":5271.48,"end":5294.225,"text":"我們想盡辦法讓他上路 照顧金門民眾那院長明天這兩天颱風那您知道現在金門機場還有很多人回不了臺灣嗎早上的訊息還有100多名的旅客還在排會當中我想現在有沒有稍微疏散那這個"},{"start":5296.746,"end":5311.477,"text":"這個齁其實不是只有颱風天對金門人來講這個不是只有颱風天起霧啦年節啦三不五時下去又10月10號啦又是連假啦齁都一直發生這樣的情形金門機場永遠有好多人回不了家而且這邊大部分是"},{"start":5313.098,"end":5313.138,"text":"主席"},{"start":5328.779,"end":5353.474,"text":"甚至曾經有一次天氣起霧是大學生要來台灣考試那時候是推真就是考試幾百個高中生台灣考大學因為起霧沒有飛完全沒有辦法到台灣來考試一輩子就考這一次這事情非常嚴重常年在發生後來那一次怎麼解決交通部長知道嗎"},{"start":5355.396,"end":5365.211,"text":"這個應該是前年,那時候是王國才當部長你知道這件事情嗎?你知道嗎?你知道常年發生這樣的事情嗎?"},{"start":5366.214,"end":5394.345,"text":"這個我大概有聽說就是起霧啦那個什麼天氣像這種颱風天啦年假啦過年啦哇 這個實在是金門的心中一直沒有辦法解決的痛那 院長您您知道這個金門 離島 三個離島金馬棚離島到台灣島這個這個之間這個交通工具是什麼您知道嗎除了飛機以外除了飛機我們還有海運有海運哪一個地方有海運馬祖馬祖有 還有呢"},{"start":5395.216,"end":5402.362,"text":"澎湖部長您知道嗎澎湖跟馬祖有齁有啊金門勒金門目前是沒有為什麼"},{"start":5403.558,"end":5405.48,"text":"那難道到金門能會比到澎湖或是甚至比到馬祖少嗎?到馬祖觀光人沒有比到金門多欸"},{"start":5430.143,"end":5455.224,"text":"馬祖你們怎麼做朋友你們怎麼做部長朋友你們怎麼做馬祖你們怎麼做你們補助他們建船對不對還補助他們20年的營運的這個費用對不對讓這個船可以平常如果他自己營運他這樣營運不起來你讓馬祖跟朋友都這樣可以自由的就是給他一條船然後接著給他這個營運20年的補助費用讓這個船可以這樣正常的走像昨天"},{"start":5456.445,"end":5478.69,"text":"這幾天颱風吧其實我們金門的補助也是有但是是針對假期啦應該委員知道針對什麼例如說中秋節或一些連假那什麼如果有船運的需求的時候我們會跟縣政府來合作該補助中央會補助是你說的是臨時的吧那時候今年就有啊釣不到船啊那船跑去走澎湖啊他不願意來走金門啊"},{"start":5479.89,"end":5504.291,"text":"那是澎湖的船很快的嘛他要走澎湖他不要來走金馬上次考大學生那一次你們出面也不願意我還親自去拜託那個老闆說拜託你就幫我們走這一趟所以高中生才可以到台灣來考大學你們出面人家也不要幫我們還要自己再去再次請託拜託完以後我事後又拿了很大的一瓶高粱酒去送他那我想請問這個不是解決的方法嗎"},{"start":5505.698,"end":5522.194,"text":"我們不是人質的社會 我們要制度化那這個金馬鵬來講 金馬鵬 馬祖跟鵬都有這樣的運輸船這不是只是說天氣或是年假的時候運輸需要其實這也對公關很有幫助"},{"start":5522.975,"end":5549.534,"text":"像比如說現在的這個離島的這個機票事實上是對非居民來講是蠻高的來回大概要五千塊那這個事實上也會影響到現在很多人願意出國因為出國的機票可以沒那麼貴那也影響到金門地區的觀光發展啊所以你們是不是我們金門縣政府也有提出來啊我們需要一台那個台金輪啊你們可以給馬祖這個台馬輪可以給澎湖這個台澎輪為什麼不能給我們一條台金輪呢"},{"start":5550.23,"end":5550.731,"text":"那個不是今年才開始一直都有"},{"start":5567.11,"end":5569.932,"text":"備言船有沒有發揮作用今年要備言的時候他說船是在"},{"start":5588.388,"end":5605.423,"text":"彭胡不願意開過來啊,被人他open了嘛,開口氣,他可以要他可以不要嘛,他可以不賺這個錢啊彭胡的比較近啊,比較好賺啊,人家要賺彭胡的啊,我們理解嘛那這個不是強制久安之道嗎?盡量跟業者溝通,其他方法就不行每一次都發生事情再來溝通嘛"},{"start":5606.488,"end":5627.459,"text":"等你溝通溝通溝通他又不願意的時候我們要出門又去溝通等他願意的時候天氣又變化又開不了像以今天來講以今天來講明天颱風昨天100多個人滯留在金門機場這些大部分事實上除了要來這邊就醫的我們基本相信很多都是台灣的人台灣鄉親台灣島的人他們是要回家回不了家"},{"start":5628.599,"end":5655.325,"text":"那不能常常發生這樣的事情嘛所以長治久安者那像如果在馬祖在澎湖遇到重慶他們晚上開船明天早上到所以很多人就可以做他的行程規劃嘛今天如果是院長勒其實上次應該上次有一次王國才部長要去金門的時候還是林佳龍部長林佳龍部長對不對你也要去你也遇到大霧啊對不對你是不是跟我在那個宣傳機場也等很久連部長自己都沒有辦法坐飛機都無機可乘"},{"start":5658.876,"end":5673.806,"text":"第一 如果是天後不可抗力的 那我們大概很難在短時間來做處理剛剛如果提的就是比方說是考試 我覺得考試在金門地區如果能跟大家方便的方式 我們應該來想"},{"start":5674.867,"end":5693.721,"text":"不需要那如果是你﹖請問你遇到那個考試那怎麼辦一年考試推薦喔推薦是要到臺灣各個大學去參加入學考試那天還剛好不知道為什麼6月份還起大霧若是國家重要的考試能不能在金門有一個方便讓大家不需要這樣有這種風險的方式那怎麼做"},{"start":5694.221,"end":5695.162,"text":"先從大型的國家考試考慮金門如果可以"},{"start":5710.869,"end":5730.299,"text":"這個已經有在做了謝謝您我已經有跟考試院設國家堂這個我已經知道那像比如說這種你也想做重心怎麼會遇到就剛好那時候天氣就起大霧那一天就是沒有辦法開所有的學生幾百個學生高中生都沒有辦法參加過兩天6月18、19的考試如果你的小孩子在那邊明天要參加考試人到不了台灣你要怎麼辦"},{"start":5731.189,"end":5756.643,"text":"當然很著急啦除非是改時間除非是能夠讓這些學生們能夠改時間改時間 各個學校的面試怎麼改時間或者是以後我們可以用科技的方式來進行等一下 你說以後所以他由北到南所有大學全部因為進門考生沒有辦法考另外那些面試老師再花一個時間讓他們好沒關係 你如果願意做這樣承諾教育部有聽到"},{"start":5757.483,"end":5785.744,"text":"我是說我們可以想這個方式或是用更科技不是不是的確有可能會發生到前面就發生了所以說以後比如說國家考試那一天是有一個要考那一天還有一個是考好像是金融方面的考試吧好像也是定哪一天然後也是又天氣又起霧又沒辦法過來這種怎麼辦一樣就是說以後你只要願意下這個政策我也可以接受以後金門的居民如果遇到這種重大考試因為天氣沒有辦法過來另外幫他們排時間這個我接受了"},{"start":5786.284,"end":5799.138,"text":"這個很好 這個不能完全 我說如果重大的國家考試一輩子一次的高普考是不是中大考試或者一輩子一次的大學考試是不是入學考試是不是中大考試應該金門會很方便有考場吧這是舉例啦 我請問你嘛"},{"start":5800.885,"end":5801.065,"text":"長治久安："},{"start":5819.145,"end":5840.467,"text":"跟這個之前我也是一直在思考這個問題想說我們金門飛機也很多吧然後也一桌有280班是是非常多事實上對每一天有每一天有快100班啦80班100班但是就是因為這麼多所以只要天氣一爆影響就非常大就整個機場永遠有人在抗議然後每個人都會叫我們要出面去解決所以這個變成而且"},{"start":5842.412,"end":5867.812,"text":"對機場的對金門的形象早上那些滯留在金門的旅客現在趕快想辦法這個叫做治標我要考慮治本的事情那比如說留在金門就會被我們金門的形象造成很差的影響現在大部分我想在座每個人都會想說到金門是不是有可能從金門三日遊變成關島五日遊啊所以大家就會擔心嘛那去金門就會所以我不要讓我們金門有這樣的印象所以我覺得你們真的應該去思考"},{"start":5868.613,"end":5892.909,"text":"去弄一條台金輪,可以去研究嗎?不是不是,不只還有幫助觀光產業的發展然後我們金門縣政府也已經在去年就來來來,部長您聽一下去年就已經代會交通部航港局有提出來了也在去年10月5號有提報要爭取的我們想我們金門縣政府也願意說如果你們願意出一點錢,我們也可以出一點錢"},{"start":5894.189,"end":5896.891,"text":"縣政府以及金門的居民如果認為這個是一個迫切需要的那我認為交通部應該跟他們去研議這個事情"},{"start":5914.059,"end":5941.253,"text":"公務員已經來了,部長有看到嗎?有,我跟縣政府一起來研議這件事是不是看看怎麼做,或者經費上大家怎麼來出嘛對不對,如果你們錢不夠你們先幫我們出,我們現在沒錢不然我們可以多寄一些金門高粱酒過來換金門縣政府的財政狀況算不錯不好,現在越來越不好,但是我們還是有酒我們可以某一個酒窖就專門包給交通部這個就是你們慢慢取用,沒有關係,你們幫我們造一條船,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":5941.929,"end":5963.183,"text":"我們跟縣政府來演繹你跟縣政府好好研究一下我想請教一下院長你有看到賴總統前幾天有一個影片總統叫大家說這個影片你有看到嗎?瓊總親上火線錄節目這個你有看到這個影片嗎?"},{"start":5964.155,"end":5970.897,"text":"總統在主持總統府全社會防衛任性的這個會議當中會有一些專家學者的建議等等那我們也認為這不一定是戰爭我們就很多我想請教他在這個上面那個臥槽"},{"start":5989.821,"end":5995.454,"text":"沒錯嘛 你知道嗎 這個是在幫臥草錄製的 你知道嗎臥草 上面有一個右上方有臥草兩個字有沒有"},{"start":5997.211,"end":6021.747,"text":"臥槽有沒有他這個不是在總統府的官方網站欸他是在一個當然總統府我後來去查證了賴清德總統喔他有在他的臉書大家如果沒看到去他的臉書看一下臉書有後來我還確認這個不是假訊息他在這個臥槽幫這個臥槽這個什麼單位啊我不知道是什麼單位臥槽您知道這個組織嗎您知道這個東西嗎是臥槽臥槽弄的啊"},{"start":6022.427,"end":6029.492,"text":"這是一個網路的媒體公司把影片放下來第一個這有幾個問題啊我們先內容等一下討論第一個他幫一個網路的媒體公司錄影片那是他抓他臉書上的影片下來"},{"start":6037.398,"end":6038.299,"text":"震板是沒有臥槽的"},{"start":6068.338,"end":6081.485,"text":"院長看了有什麼想法總統要傳達的是一個我們在大型的災難之後全民要做一些對自己以及對周遭環境所以說的可能是天災比如說颱風啊比如說地震啊是不是這是你幫總統詮釋的還是他的想法"},{"start":6087.318,"end":6113.169,"text":"全社會防衛韌性就是這個意思可是這個很奇怪國家防災日是在前一天他譬如是在國家防災日放出這個影片9月都是國家防災月你知道他後面說了什麼我也是其實我剛開始也是跟你一樣的想法說這個是不是地震天災颱風的時候總統講的結果後來最後你知道他最後你有看到影片看到最後嗎我有整個看完看了好多遍你知道他的內容看到最後嗎"},{"start":6114.485,"end":6116.846,"text":"報告我最近經常到花蓮去那這樣類似的話我也常講"},{"start":6141.227,"end":6163.602,"text":"什麼這樣類似的話就是我們的自己國家要自己救自己的地方要自己維護那自己地方沒有問題自己地方自己維護這當然沒有問題阿那這是一個表達的所以好來好那沒關係你如果可以幫忙澄清也很好齁就是說總統錄這個不是說因為是因為戰爭可能戰爭這個很重要您公開講清楚不要讓民進黨這個我也可以接受您說吧"},{"start":6163.922,"end":6166.063,"text":"所以如果發生像今天颱風哪一天地震的時候這個有需要民防隊出動嗎是嗎"},{"start":6186.359,"end":6202.677,"text":"昨天我在災害應變中心的時候我們甚至要拜託國軍弟兄國軍弟兄沒問題國軍常常不管是作戰救災都幫忙那地震這個民防隊也要出動是不是我知道一下你們怎麼做了"},{"start":6204.339,"end":6230.501,"text":"我的意思是說我現在需要必須儲備相關的人力啊這養兵就在千日啊也許永遠用不到你現在都又在說兵嘛我說的就是說如果按照你剛剛的前提錄這個影片就是只是擔心這種災害的時候颱風啊地震的時候那當然當然我是也很願意接受這個說法可是如果不是的話如果可能是因應可能的戰爭的話這是很多人看到的"},{"start":6230.981,"end":6231.101,"text":"雖然現在"},{"start":6250.458,"end":6256.263,"text":"有信心是好事 但是備戰也是要做吧 總統也是要說要備戰嘛 所以你們也發布這個全民國防手冊啦 你有看過全民國防手冊嗎"},{"start":6273.223,"end":6277.806,"text":"行政院長如果現在我們在質詢的過程當中突然中共就打過來一個砲彈就掉下來我們現在在立法院我們要躲在哪裡"},{"start":6290.964,"end":6316.621,"text":"我們可能就必須要國家﹖我們最近的這個﹖掩體在哪裡在哪裡委員就指出一個非常重要﹖我們最近的討論的事情比如說現場的人到底要走在哪個地方有一項﹖我們除了說地震要他趴下之外﹖如果更大的災難發生的時候﹖到底每一個人﹖在當下要知道我要去哪裡是是是要建立這樣的防衛的心情這個全民國家手冊﹖各個縣市都有嗎"},{"start":6318.467,"end":6344.215,"text":"有那個空間 有沒有各個縣市有沒有都有你既然要做嘛 要教育民眾嘛 全民國防手冊 各個縣市都有嗎 院長 部長跟委員報告 全民國防手冊裡面呢 它就有那個你可以點進去消防一點通裡面不是 地方都要有 各個縣市的地方都要有應變手冊 比如說我在台北 我在金門站你知道有各個縣市都有 沒有嘛 您知道有多少個縣市有嗎"},{"start":6346.073,"end":6353.516,"text":"國防部頒布一個全民國防手冊之後各縣市政府會依照他轄區的特性會來調修那個手冊有多少縣市調修出來了據我的瞭解應該各縣市都有調整只有17個縣市有"},{"start":6373.527,"end":6387.943,"text":"你可能應該要再去追蹤了解一下我不會針對您啦因為謝謝國防部我跟你講國防部也是幫金門很多忙啦在飛機沒有飛的時候軍機也幫忙飛很多我們需要後送的時候都是國防部在幫我們我們平時就好像暫時的"},{"start":6391.607,"end":6410.1,"text":"所以如果總統有這樣的決心有這樣的打算第一個要讓全民知道不要讓民心惶惶第二個我覺得40萬這個民力這樣夠嗎應該也是不夠吧跟委員報告這個是根據民防法它相關的規定來做這個民力的這個建築訓練"},{"start":6414.649,"end":6428.076,"text":"這個他範圍是很大包括要協助也搶救重大的災難協助地方治安等等事情很多遇到什麼事情40萬夠嗎?"},{"start":6430.886,"end":6450.439,"text":"我想這個 夠嗎 院長夠不夠 連最高行政所長 40萬夠嗎如果真的遇到這樣子大的事情的話 40萬夠嗎我們認為討論出來的這個數字就是基本的需求啦基本的需求 所以是不夠的嘛基本的需求我們希望他是備而為難所以如果總統要真的要全面備戰喔 就不尋求"},{"start":6451.46,"end":6452.682,"text":"主要是強化韌性其實40萬也是不夠的"},{"start":6470.782,"end":6495.667,"text":"我建議是不是就是開始討論阿實實像以前金門做的這樣子阿全民皆兵每個人都參加組成自衛隊民防自衛隊不分男女16歲到這個50歲沒有這樣的環境喔那你就是沒有打仗的環境阿所以你沒有打仗的環境嘛因為你們沒有這樣的決心嘛如果要打仗就不會分男或是女"},{"start":6496.227,"end":6510.862,"text":"跟委員報告民兵跟民力是不一樣的不一樣你覺得現在戰爭不會打到你家門口就對了跟委員報告我們這個民力最主要是面對像今天颱風或者是所以不是面對不是面對戰爭我只要這句話不是面對戰爭我們的民防法有規定"},{"start":6519.711,"end":6526.896,"text":"那這個民防法的規定裡面要包括民間的自救能力 共同防衛人民的生命財產這個我會再繼續跟你們討論 因為我只剩下30秒 我要問一個問題 院長你站到了嗎你站到了嗎你站不到了嗎你聽不懂金門話喔"},{"start":6541.618,"end":6559.214,"text":"我講的是照文化報告說我這個金門話是台灣台語耶金門腔耶那我還要學習還要學習所以我這個就不是台語嘛你聽不懂台語喔我這個是金門話所以你聽不懂嘛對不對聽不懂你聽不懂嘛那為什麼金文化被文化部列為是什麼台灣台語這個就不是"},{"start":6573.451,"end":6579.756,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員謝謝卓院長下一位請王帝女委員質詢"},{"start":6605.093,"end":6606.782,"text":"謝謝副院長麻煩卓院長卓院長請備舉"},{"start":6619.906,"end":6639.112,"text":"黃國雲好我們現在在這邊進行質詢其實我剛才一直在聯絡看臺南的情況因為這次這個颱風這個路徑大概是近10年來比較少見的路徑那現在停在那裡風雨前的寧靜其實我們大家要戰戰兢兢人因為沒辦法聽話"},{"start":6642.657,"end":6668.3,"text":"那我第一個先請教治水預算在從莫拉克到凱米事實上莫拉克跟凱米都是在南台灣降下非常大的雨在部分的食雨量呢它的累積雨量凱米甚至於超越莫拉克可莫拉克颱風當時造成的損失人命的損失是非常嚴重那以我比較熟悉的台南為例"},{"start":6669.346,"end":6687.951,"text":"海米跟莫拉克我們在莫拉克的時候臺南淹水區域根據水利署的資料是53000到56000公頃到了海米颱風的時候還是有淹水但是淹水區域在相同的雨量變700公頃53000到700其中包含我的選區從南關縣到東區三爺宮西二仁溪"},{"start":6696.154,"end":6711.381,"text":"這都是以前明星的淹水災區域說感謝水利相關的治水人員從中央到地方在凱米的時候還好我們渡過了但治水永遠不能自滿我們也不敢說不會淹水這個事情"},{"start":6712.181,"end":6739.191,"text":"現在面對這麼強大的這個颱風要過來我看了一下預算在行政院明年的治水預算蓋估起來有551億從郭智輝部長的經濟部到相關的部會加總起來551億那在我選區的鹽水溪八甲溪這邊有17.5億這個是做提案的那另外在其他一些橋樑要提高"},{"start":6740.331,"end":6757.245,"text":"復合治水治理線的高度等等等等這551億多重要呢賴清德總統到台南的時候宣布我們用一個基準線來對照每一任總統我相信都很重視治水馬英九總統的時候喊出6年600億所以平均一年100億"},{"start":6759.338,"end":6787.816,"text":"馬英九總統銜接到蔡英文總統在相關的治水預算加起來大概10年2014年到2024年是1873億大概平均每一年有180億上下而我們明年度的治水預算就達到551億坦白講這一個投資的規模大概是創歷史的我第一個要請教卓院長或其他部會可以協助回答"},{"start":6789.38,"end":6806.554,"text":"提高這樣的額度你希望達成的目標是什麼報告委員這個額度的提高是因為在凱米颱風之後我們到各地走了一趟我們不能否認過去的治水是有它的績效的但是還有一些部分可能在最後還必須加強的某一些"},{"start":6807.671,"end":6807.691,"text":"委員長"},{"start":6824.464,"end":6825.345,"text":"臺北市以外的區域共用100億"},{"start":6847.318,"end":6847.458,"text":"主席"},{"start":6869.858,"end":6872.32,"text":"我們持續在努力我們希望能夠透過這樣的說明讓朝野各黨團的委員先進能夠了解"},{"start":6894.105,"end":6911.861,"text":"所謂的預算整體性它必須一定是有它的相關關聯性的這個預算的完整性我們要維持預算可以三檢動到委員會大家提案三檢動黨團協商三檢動大會還可以再三檢動但現在卡在程序委員會是最差的狀態就不能討論"},{"start":6912.782,"end":6930.121,"text":"所以只有延續性的人事費用 延續性的才能支用 新增的都不行而這些新增項目 有一些可能 現在看我們總諮詢的人 不曉得在哪裡啊 古中溪在哪裡古中溪 那個台北橋 它要架高起來啊譬如說八甲"},{"start":6933.53,"end":6950.364,"text":"對這個南方兩花 要做到86個當事鄉現在那邊沒有提案啊 就要靠這個新政運算去處理所以 這個部分555億齁我希望 統一是跨部會的 從經濟部啦 到內政部 國土管理署等等可能大家要去思考說"},{"start":6951.605,"end":6952.786,"text":"接下來請教有關AI的部分"},{"start":6968.652,"end":6991.728,"text":"我一直追蹤因為謝謝卓中泰院長你上任應該還沒有滿月你就到我們沙崙宣布那邊要設AI園區我們充滿期待那有關AI它其實不只是硬體的生產還有軟體的應用甚至它是一種態度我印象我聽過郭部長還是哪一位部長提過現在我們面臨的狀態有點像30年前電腦剛在用的時候"},{"start":6995.031,"end":7015.545,"text":"後來我們才發現會電腦跟不會電腦根本就是一個0跟1的差別而不是有多少的問題所以我們AI要發展它可能是國發會它可能是國科會它可能是經濟部它可能是院要統籌的我目前看一下我們年度的預算明年度的預算你們計劃在沙崙西區投入1.8億在沙崙西區要投入1.33億"},{"start":7022.21,"end":7046.574,"text":"另外根據我發文給國科會的回文 國科會回答說你們現在整個經費期程上在研議當中需要試計劃審議 核定後確定所以我第一個先請教院長你在台灣現在發展AI 除了我們常常知道我們可能是製造上的大國 NVIDIA 夏丹 先進晶片"},{"start":7047.335,"end":7051.128,"text":"到底願景是什麼﹖你對台灣在你行政院﹖或者我們國發會﹖國科會相關的部會"},{"start":7054.025,"end":7077.414,"text":"AI的願景你發展的願景是什麼我們除了繼續維持我們製造大國之外我們要進入軟體設計的時代甚至我們建立自己的大型語言模型所以我就說主權AI應用時代這是我們下一個階段開始要進行去追求的一個目標這些願景他要轉換成政策跟預算行政院目前有沒有計劃"},{"start":7080.014,"end":7101.948,"text":"也許是跨部會編列的我們每一年投資在AI上面的預算準備編列多少包括我們的剛剛談到這個大型語言模型泰德的預算以及國科會在吳主委的安排之下我去到沙崙我們在114到118就會投資在沙崙超過360億的預算那整個科技預算114年到118年這個算是四年期的計畫要投資多少360億360億"},{"start":7109.253,"end":7134.12,"text":"這個跟原來的那個沙倫的醫療園區那個無關嗎獨立出來另外一個獨立的獨立的一個好那院長繼續那這個整個科技預算那更是超過1000億以上的科技預算在明年度要執行這個委員所說的不管是治水跟科技明年都有很多的新增的部分新增的項目這個跟治水有點像他其實是跨部會統合的AI有產業嘛"},{"start":7135.08,"end":7163.697,"text":"那產業要進來像AMD、NVIDIA要投資臺南跟高雄這個就經濟部可能比較主俠簽造工業區的infrastructure基礎建設那產業的導向規劃可能國科會要做一個導引的方式裡面還要結合量子所以我剛才要確認一下就是說在未來4年期我們會投資將近400億就是360多億在AI的發展另外科技預算會投資1000億那這樣子投入了量能下"},{"start":7164.926,"end":7173.342,"text":"人才 能源供應 電力供應 土地 這三件事情有沒有盤點過能源照"},{"start":7174.424,"end":7202.225,"text":"經濟部台電的盤點我們現在到2030年之前加進所有AI高科技的快速的發展我們還是有餘裕能夠來供應這個電力的郭部長我們該院長講的一個願景願景變成實質的政策跟投資預算人才庫土地基礎建設跟能源供應能源這一塊你怎麼看報告委員我們在這個4年內準備培育AI的人員"},{"start":7203.306,"end":7203.426,"text":"電力供應"},{"start":7231.223,"end":7234.405,"text":"以現有的盤點我們新開發的還不曉得以現有的我們擁有的電力規劃跟我們擁有的電力"},{"start":7249.155,"end":7249.855,"text":"綠電的部分我們現在正在加緊我們雖然現在這個"},{"start":7272.202,"end":7301.123,"text":"有一點落後這個進度不過我們現在全力的在這個院的指導之下我們全力的發展時間的關係我移回來卓院長對於你心中的願景未來AI發展的重鎮在哪裡當然全台灣都要但重點在哪裡委員一定是關心台南沙崙我們也一樣非常關心沙崙它會起一個帶頭起頭的大的作用你剛剛提到土地現在沙崙還有很多可以興建開發起來"},{"start":7302.11,"end":7324.235,"text":"他已經新建的建築物已經相當大相當多那還有你都可以開發我最後提醒你那我待會請顧立雄部長我三分鐘有問題要問他就是說在沙崙這一邊請注意一下我們的國土計畫法他有一些畫的那個區塊不符合我們的需求"},{"start":7325.168,"end":7345.349,"text":"所以本來5年檢討期明年就要進行檢討那現在大家主張把國土計劃法先拉下來重新盤點沙崙這一塊跟周邊不管是中秋啦武當大潭沙崙五甲貴南這周邊的發展在國土計劃法裡面很多是化成農業發展區"},{"start":7347.625,"end":7364.796,"text":"所以這個部分可能要去注意一下我會提醒主委這邊我們也協調請市政府農業部跟國科會再來協調期待院長有空再來沙崙走一走你大概來都會有好消息那你先請回我請顧立雄部長我最後兩分鐘多請教顧部長你邊走邊聽我提問"},{"start":7368.331,"end":7393.07,"text":"這兩天有一個蠻奇怪的消息就是有關賴清德總統三軍統賴清德總統三軍統在將領晉升的時候怎麼傳出一個消息說他坦白講我大概20幾歲認識賴清德國大代表到現在我沒有看過他摔東西甚至我坦白講他就是他要罵人也罵得蠻文雅的"},{"start":7393.883,"end":7395.304,"text":"因為這個總統是就這個在我們8月的這個將官訓免典禮之後他為了"},{"start":7422.398,"end":7429.663,"text":"以往晉升就結束了,這一次是晉升掛接之後,總統安排到官邸是不是?總統府裡面安排查序"},{"start":7442.423,"end":7458.638,"text":"因為這個流程會前確實我們這邊沒有一個溝通的清楚那我那個時候安排當然是一個圓桌的一個平台他並不是總統還要先上台有一個致詞他就是一個圓桌子"},{"start":7460.579,"end":7471.367,"text":"總統進來的時候應該沒有喊總統進來請起立的動作所以總統進來之後確實有提醒一下說按照軍人禮節應該要注意一下就輕輕提醒這一句他一向講話態度蠻嚴正的但是沒有任何"},{"start":7487.236,"end":7489.197,"text":"你認為這些有些片段扭曲式的說法會有什麼影響?"},{"start":7513.271,"end":7513.291,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":7543.723,"end":7560.669,"text":"謝謝王委員謝謝卓院長發言會現在在議場二樓旁聽起的是東吳大學政治系的同學我們在此表達歡迎發言會現在休息10分鐘休息之後我們繼續進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":8237.02,"end":8241.642,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會請邱政經委員質詢還有我們請我們的院長請左院長"},{"start":8272.345,"end":8300.407,"text":"邱委員好院長好我想問一下就是說您在宣布內閣人事的時候說過支持客家朋友的權益及客家文化的保存是我們執政黨長期來的一個目標嘛那我身為客家人聽到是非常的高興也蠻感動的但是呢最近因為教育部說行政院要把閩南語改成台語我就覺得很奇怪我請教一下院長客語是台灣的語言嗎"},{"start":8302.097,"end":8331.256,"text":"我曾經說過幾次這個都是國家語言我們就用這樣國家語言來認定所有在這裡通用的語言原住民語言也是包括手語都是剛剛我看到陳玉珍委員他也提到他的金門話金門語言也算是我們台灣的語言嘛那既然通通都是那為什麼我們行政院這一次要把這個閩南語改成特別改成台語呢我可以回答嗎"},{"start":8332.32,"end":8360.6,"text":"我覺得今天會有那個規定是因為早期大家獨尊華語把所有其他語言都消滅所以這個語言法是因為要把一些要被消滅的語言重新恢復才會有這個法那麼全部加一個臺語臺灣是因為你說閩南語會被消滅啊差不多啊其實會講閩南語的人不多捏今天我們講閩南語也好臺語也好他的確是跟過去比起來差不多40幾歲以下不會講了捏"},{"start":8362.394,"end":8384.293,"text":"這個閩南語或台語的確一直在消滅中所以其實我們會有定這個法制想把所有在台灣的語言都變成國家語言以前我們的國家語言是華語嘛所以您是覺得客家話客語跟原住民語都不重要嗎同時在消失為什麼這些沒有編列一起在編其實對於客家或原住民語"},{"start":8385.083,"end":8385.783,"text":"我們國家語言發展報告的網站"},{"start":8408.314,"end":8437.595,"text":"他們特別標註我們行政院請客機關優先使用臺灣原住民語言那臺灣客語還有臺灣台語還有馬祖語臺灣手語等等都算是那當然我也認同我們生長在中華民國這塊土地上所有的族群都是臺灣人所以每個族群用的語言都是我們臺灣話也是臺語尤其在教育上文化藝術不應該有政治力的那個政治的考量"},{"start":8438.564,"end":8439.865,"text":"民演號民演號民演號民演號"},{"start":8457.345,"end":8470.825,"text":"當時你有沒有出來廣發呢?對,我們有出來表達,我們在媒體上也有說過,基於民從主人﹖可以做到廣告嗎?做到"},{"start":8472.748,"end":8472.928,"text":"民從主人 臺語"},{"start":8490.245,"end":8512.781,"text":"我們也尊重尊崇我們的行人對好路人因為我們都說他的好路法不會說他退任所以他要自稱跟他稱我們都會尊崇其實就包含他所要的促求尊崇跟保養的提醒主委我相信這樣我希望其他人家學幹人的在床上你能學到鄉親學幹人都整齊我們不能說看不看不去因為這樣就緊要緊要死"},{"start":8519.295,"end":8524.897,"text":"我只要做訪談,我一定講下我一定講下,因為那些母語,我做不講,不記得,一定要帶頭我再問一件事情,朱茉莉在哪裏輔助武漢東人"},{"start":8548.718,"end":8562.225,"text":"我記得以前是這樣,主委是南科,副主委是北科,北科是周主委,南科是南編上,我認同這樣,現在都在那裡,北科沒有人在那裡?"},{"start":8568.547,"end":8572.792,"text":"還是要院長決定?副主委是要院長決定嗎?這個我覺得我還有很大的遺憾就是這個副主委來之後我們一直想"},{"start":8591.769,"end":8617.828,"text":"看他自己的狀況來填補一位副主委來協助他那目前還沒有適當的人員外界一直在猜測啦是不是北克沒有我們賴清德總統的人沒有沒有沒有剛剛我聽出來了這個委員有說到南克北克那因為副主委來自南部嘛我們一直希望在北部找一位熟悉地方熟悉文化那個也熟悉公共這個體系我們是這樣講啦我現在是希望說我們客家客委會也好就是客委會"},{"start":8618.348,"end":8619.229,"text":"我們請兩位部長"},{"start":8648.203,"end":8676.269,"text":"院長我聽說本週五要喝一個溫暖的咖啡當然我希望這杯咖啡能夠融化你的心能夠把我們這個立法院的這個立場你要了解那我可以希望你不要喝到不要點到冰的啦你要心裡還喝熱一點好不好上週五咖啡很溫暖已經喝過了本週五希望有更熱鬧的大火鍋那事實上我們這個"},{"start":8677.694,"end":8683.756,"text":"第一個網路上的訊息指責說是哪一方面的假消息所以福利會沒有津貼會領不到這個部分啊院長你認為勒"},{"start":8704.209,"end":8723.121,"text":"因為預算整體 到目前對我來講明年的預算到現在為止就是空的因為還沒有付尾 付尾之後實施審查就會產生任何的一般性的支出是不會影響的但新增的事項新增的計畫就完全停擺跟原來的福利原來的津貼有什麼差別 有什麼不一樣"},{"start":8724.662,"end":8749.342,"text":"重點在於新政的今天明年有很多不要把這些事情就是用混淆的方式模糊焦點整個這樣打帶動這個風向我們從來沒有這樣的表達過我們說預算是整體的需要能夠實質審查那當然為什麼我這樣講就是說我們也退一回我舉個例子就像我們小學的時候我們寫作業寫給了"},{"start":8751.38,"end":8769.631,"text":"教的作業我們寫錯了老師叫我回去改當然也是應該很正常的嘛對不對不能說寫錯了你沒有依法編列預算你沒有照著這個法規來編列預算的時候我們跟你講然後你跟我說是老師不對"},{"start":8771.513,"end":8790.62,"text":"不過我們預算編列制定的過程程序是有它一定的行政院負責制定跟編列立法院負責審議在制定跟過程當中行政院有整個整體的考量那如果說一個提案或一個法律就能夠增加一些這個預算的話那以後沒有辦法編預算以後預算會膨脹到"},{"start":8795.882,"end":8824.533,"text":"無法控制因為今天這個委員會來一個今天這個委員來一個院長你講的都沒有錯但是我認同我認同你的論點但是立法院也不會無限上綱的去隨便去編列預算當然你們是編列預算的單位那我們是審預算的單位那當然如果我們立了法如果造成國家的這個財政的這個預算沒有辦法編列的時候你是不是就要主動出來溝通"},{"start":8825.967,"end":8827.268,"text":"原住民的預算才20幾億這會影響嗎"},{"start":8843.36,"end":8871.56,"text":"這不是錢多錢少的問題而且你要想想看從3萬塊的補償一下子增加為6萬比例上是百分之百的增加他已經十幾年沒有編列了沒有做但是也未曾有一項是這樣子況且這應該是由行政機關當時的這個我們的通膨也好就是當時的匯率來講當時也沒有那麼高所以現在錢越來越小我們只是把它提高對不對"},{"start":8872.571,"end":8889.263,"text":"提高我請問一下我們園民會是我也好你主委還在帛琉玩是擔任總統特使參加帛琉建國三十年我想請問你那你們講到你的意思是說不足的錢要用原住民綜合發展基金來補是嗎"},{"start":8890.941,"end":8915.453,"text":"這個在主計總署有做含釋在105年的時候就是說有關於進法補償的工作就是由公務預算跟原住民中央發展基金來對半來負擔那不足的部分未來基金有不服使用的部分現在基金基金有多少我們基金抱歉委員我沒提你基金就是原住民的那個那個那個發展基金"},{"start":8916.155,"end":8943.497,"text":"我們現在還有20幾億的28億是嗎我們公務預算編列28億那你進發補償條例就要42億嘛那你們說會慢慢的說會如期來如何來發放這是你講過的嗎這個部分就是我們會合法那合理的來做什麼叫做合法合理合理法院的法還是合理我想行政機關就是依法來處理我們的政務那你有編預算嗎"},{"start":8944.545,"end":8970.852,"text":"有 公務預算 便利28億嘛 對不對 不過啊那你剩下怎麼辦我們基金有相關的預算 是你是挪用還是便利不是挪用 他是在基金基金只有28億不是嗎我們的基金管理辦法裡面的支出的工作項目就包含金髮補償的這個項目但是你只有28億不是嗎公務預算28億 那我們基金可以20億來去支應所以你可以發放就對了"},{"start":8971.175,"end":8996.536,"text":"我們會合法合理來做這個工作我不希望這變成一個詐騙案好不好我希望說這個事情趕快政府不會詐騙部長請回部主委請回那我再 院長我再請教就上個會期我們在6月的時候有質詢過那本席向院長請教過我們淘竹苗大細股的這個計畫那"},{"start":8998.82,"end":9019.608,"text":"當然我們地方上是非常重視這個案子我想請教目前的進度在哪裡報告委員 這個進度是昨天院已經核下來了所以本會議就會準備行文到各部會開始進入規劃跟可言等進度"},{"start":9020.754,"end":9035.713,"text":"所以他現在已經剛通過就對了對那苗栗的部分我們現在怎麼規劃您這邊有苗栗像頭份、竹南、厚隆都有在匡列在裡面這三塊地都有匡列在裡面是的那我想說因為這個對地方來講"},{"start":9037.876,"end":9039.037,"text":"主要細部還是要看各部會的規劃"},{"start":9058.493,"end":9071.89,"text":"各部會是對我們這邊是上位政策做整體桃竹苗的規劃以後進入細微規劃譬如說經濟部他們會規劃產業園區然後各單位都會有交通部等等都會有各項的建設部長講一下"},{"start":9073.519,"end":9094.06,"text":"報告這個委員在這個厚農產業的這個籌備用地的部分那麼苗栗縣政府已經完成設置可行性的評估報告書之後那麼將依產創條例競速審查並寒轉行政院審議核定為重大的建設所以這個案子在進行中"},{"start":9094.537,"end":9111.845,"text":"已經進行了,那我希望就盡快啦好不好,讓地方上能夠有一個依據,我們其實地方上是非常期待那也希望這個案子趕快確定,我們可以先做其他的事情,讓我們地方知道在地方來配合好不好那我們兩位部長請回去"},{"start":9118.809,"end":9125.151,"text":"這就是新增計畫這也是賴總統選前的一個政見我們一定是全力支持拜託委員支持這個新增計畫才能如期推動謝謝院長我再請教一下你有沒有覺得我們潘孟安秘書長是一個優秀的屏東縣長"},{"start":9148.238,"end":9176.71,"text":"他在現場任期內評比很高地方民眾對他的支持度也很高我也很佩服他啦就是他把這個限制嚴格的農一劃在公有地4萬公頃的優良私有農地劃在農二還把應該劃農五的都計內的農地全部改劃到城鄉發展區那在我看來他非常勇於挑戰中央而且最後還讓中央妥協"},{"start":9177.52,"end":9204.384,"text":"你們說 地方政府作為規劃主體 屏東農地設置的爭議中 中央向地方妥協是符合國土規劃的原則 這句話沒有錯吧國土規劃是整體國家土地充分利用 資源利用那既然這樣子 既然全現在地方 還有縣市也還沒交 有的還沒審過 那麼其他的縣市如果比照我們屏東這樣的話 您會支持嗎"},{"start":9205.71,"end":9209.083,"text":"這要地方政府跟我們農業單位跟內政部都來充分的"},{"start":9210.748,"end":9235.465,"text":"協調出一個合理的狀況來我跟委員說明就是現在地方政府在畫的農業發展區不只是農一農二農一到農五的發生的區域那他是有他相關的一個規範跟指引那最主要是由原來的特農或一般農為基底去做轉成的那至於說地方政府畫出來了以後那有很多東西是可以有"},{"start":9235.945,"end":9265.169,"text":"有做調整的一個空間我們會依據實際的狀況跟縣政府當地的一個產業發展的需求而做一個溝通你是講的意思是說每個縣市不同嗎一定是每因為到現在目前為止就是整個的土地的農地的一個適用總量管制的概念但是並沒有規定說地方政府一定要劃多少那我們有一個劃設指引那劃設指引如果說有一些"},{"start":9265.989,"end":9289.769,"text":"調整的時候我們可以跟地方政府一起努力來做一個最有效的調整所以我們地方政府我們苗縣政府如果發現有問題有爭議的時候是不是可以來做一個調整對 是可以經過溝通以後去做一個調整我憑良心講苗栗縣五個水庫那影響了非常多的農民的一個權益已經影響得非常大"},{"start":9290.444,"end":9318.455,"text":"那再加上師傅保育又荒慮了很多的土地不能夠不好動因為管制又更嚴了那現在再加上國土計畫法我希望我們中央一定要多為我們苗栗鄉親來考量因為說真的做牧農的人他們日子過得真的不是很好當土地越來越沒有價值的時候你要教他們怎麼活下去我希望"},{"start":9319.045,"end":9345.06,"text":"我們中央能夠考量到這一點因為苗栗比較特殊我更希望苗栗有更有一種特別的一種規劃方式這樣可以嗎這個跟委員報告那個只要苗栗縣政府把那個相關的國土計畫送上來那麼我們內政部會秉持相關的原則然後來跟相關的跟苗栗縣做討論那所有的各縣市基本上也都是這樣子你們現在急著明年要實施嗎"},{"start":9346.007,"end":9360.144,"text":"我們現在奉行政院的指示我們會積極跟各縣市政府溝通藍綠的委員大家都非常重視這個問題因為地方上確實聽到非常多的聲音我希望我們行政院這邊能夠"},{"start":9362.533,"end":9381.233,"text":"聽取民意能夠把這個事情如果暫緩兩年不是不執行我們不是不執行只是說暫緩兩年讓大家有更多一點的時間來溝通我覺得這才是好的不要一個這樣這麼重要的一個法案如果直接推動的時候如果沒有配套沒有做好真的會引起民憂"},{"start":9382.374,"end":9401.185,"text":"跟委員報告我們第一個站在內政部的立場我們當然要依法執行那第二個就是說行政院已經有指示我們會進行跟全面的地方的溝通這個相關的溝通也包括說跟大院這邊的溝通那大院這邊有什麼決定我們會遵從我相信這個案子一定會過啦就是說延緩兩年這個部分"},{"start":9407.406,"end":9425.056,"text":"那我們已經給你台階下了那你們趕快趁這兩年時間趕快去處理好不好我們會積極努力去處理相關的法律的修訂那包括執法那也跟委員報告其實苗栗縣跟那個嘉義市也已經跟在媒體上告訴大家說他們會送國土計畫法"},{"start":9426.57,"end":9427.551,"text":"我覺得政策推動現在一定要因地制宜好不好"},{"start":9456.449,"end":9483.931,"text":"讓我們地方上能夠更加的和諧這才是我們要的案因為老百姓真的是很可憐你如果一個法令定下去之後搞不好他就因為這樣子整個生計就受到影響所以我們應該要從長計議好不好我們請回院長不好意思我再問我們之前有再問到我們才化法的部分我們尊重行政院"},{"start":9484.895,"end":9511.804,"text":"那展現了很大的善意嘛那在上個會期我們也有先暫緩一下也希望我們行政院能夠提出政院版的財化法的修正案那目前您行政院這邊有沒有什麼新的做法嗎 有沒有新的計畫我應該了解財化法它本身是一個非常龐大的計算工程那財政部在8月份跟9月份分別跟地方政府"},{"start":9513.356,"end":9526.045,"text":"是繼續做很多次的溝通那我想像現在他即使到目前為止也沒有辦法得出一個大家都能夠接受的方式出來那我會請財政部繼續來談這個事情是請財政部來說明一下嗎那是水平分配的問題"},{"start":9532.509,"end":9535.411,"text":"財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財政財"},{"start":9554.421,"end":9574.429,"text":"那過往有5次 從88年到現在有5次送立法院審議都沒有能夠修正通過就是因為沒有共識沒有共識主要是因為分配的機制大家都還有爭議那所以這一次我們會在分配機制上我們認為要充分的討論你那時候是送立法院對不對那這一期立法院如果通過了你們遵不遵守"},{"start":9575.791,"end":9579.315,"text":"這部分我們認為應該要審慎的規劃來改動如果是很貿然而是為了要求快通過的話那事實上會造成更大的爭議那未來在公平分配上其實會影響更大"},{"start":9593.21,"end":9610.767,"text":"也跟委員報告才化碼雖然沒有能夠修正但是我們在對地方政府的財政挹注其實是成長很多尤其在114年比113年加上統籌加上一般補助款會增加到900億是歷年來最高已經達到7000多億你不要講那個啦但是我就覺得我們要立民又補到錢啊"},{"start":9612.687,"end":9636.752,"text":"我苗栗就是沒有補到啦有啊苗栗也是有分啦你那是一般建設有些東西我們講難聽一點啦如果錢給我們自己我們來規劃那我們當然苗栗現在還因為負債嘛對不對我們可以更好的規劃我們的財政預算那現在完全靠中央給我們要還到什麼時候你們的錢只是建設啊那我們永遠苗栗在負債"},{"start":9638.822,"end":9649.63,"text":"財務的部分因為苗栗過往財務事實上是有超限目前還說在地方政府努力他已經有一樣的很多了那整個財政紀律沒有維持已經不符合現在的我們的需求了嗎不會我覺得這個部分在一般性的補助款主席總署也給予支持那我再問那就是現在假如立法院通過之後你們怎麼辦"},{"start":9669.093,"end":9696.991,"text":"我覺得這個是一個高度共識的一個法案才可以那雖然說過去幾年財法法沒有做過任何的修訂但是逐年中央對地方的補助是一再的增加剛剛部長也講到了明年度我們高達增加了900億我們中央的稅 國稅的部分那一般的補助 成長超過一倍中央總預算已經突破三兆了可是地方稅收的成長率卻只有13%"},{"start":9698.632,"end":9724.375,"text":"而且法定支出越來越多你懂我意思嗎你這造成地方上的真的是非常的辛苦你錢通通抓在中央沒有沒有沒有我們對一般補助統籌分配款都有相當的挹注給地方而且因為逐年的增加那過去的數字部長再說明一下像今年跟明年我們就明年又增加了相當大那今年實際上也增加了對地方所以院長您的意思"},{"start":9725.017,"end":9735.906,"text":"您的意思是財化法這一次你還是不準備動啊?你準備不調了?我覺得要有充分的討論而且要有共識 這樣子通過才有意義你說這些縣市 你們找來溝通你找誰來溝通?"},{"start":9740.356,"end":9767.643,"text":"各地方政府以及部會都有來我們在這個分配的指標上在財政努力還有基本建設需求這部分都已經中國討論而且有初步的成果後續必須對於權重還有調整係數的部分都還要做精緻的一個規劃我這樣講當然我們現在立法院的那個版本到底適不適用這個我不多講但是我認為大家要出來談你來談我們大家才會有空間"},{"start":9768.578,"end":9777.517,"text":"不是說一定要照我們立法院的版本你把你們的立場講出來但是你一定要願意退阿你懂我意思嗎你不能說我就是這樣子我就不跟你談"},{"start":9778.906,"end":9799.91,"text":"這不是中央退的問題是中央地方一起進步的問題我們一起進步就是中央會用更多的資源役注在地方需要的縣市我們絕對不是用人口來做唯一的標準比例剛剛部長講了很多有他各種的條件算出來這是一個複雜的財政資源分配的一個計算工程"},{"start":9800.626,"end":9821.052,"text":"我認為啦就是說現在我們台灣的政治氛圍我希望大家能夠坐下來好好談你們如果不談這個案子還是會通過那通過的時候我們要請我們的大法官保姆來保護你們嗎所以立法院通過的東西你們都不承認是不是你乾脆請大法官出來把我們立法院講的都不算就好了"},{"start":9821.77,"end":9848.731,"text":"我當然希望立法行政兩院的互動能夠非常的平實而且非常能夠依照各種法律來進行我真的是希望我真的是希望台灣更好地方更好那我也不希望看到藍綠的惡鬥那我們希望我們大家一起努力往前走好不好是我們當然希望中央跟地方大家都一起好所以在整個分配的機制上我們必須要做更詳細更細緻的一個規劃好"},{"start":9856.066,"end":9879.945,"text":"我再請問一下我們全面開放輔導五縣市的食品你們的理由是回歸科學從2011年到現在邊境檢驗輻射23.5萬多批檢測結果均符合我國標準及日本標準不合格為0那你有沒有告訴大家日本的檢驗批數是多少"},{"start":9882.122,"end":9885.972,"text":"現在的狀況是日本禁止的我國就禁止"},{"start":9888.073,"end":9903.941,"text":"在周遭五線原來有一些禁止的所以我們是聽日本的跟著日本的腳步走日本說吃就是可以吃日本說不能吃我們就不能吃是這樣嗎這還是符合國際的標準國際的檢驗標準我看了一下報告從110年到112年6月日本總檢驗的P數總共183萬4681P這期間驗了21萬"},{"start":9916.458,"end":9944.266,"text":"一千三百七十批也就是說我們的這個比例只有九分之一我們是在我們的邊境我們在我們的邊境檢驗啊十三年來我們在我們邊境檢驗的數量你有沒有檢驗到有沒有檢驗過到輻射嗎沒有十三年來檢驗邊境檢驗的二十三點五萬批次都符合我們現在的標準那這個也跟國際檢測那我再問一下靜岡縣的那個抹茶"},{"start":9946.274,"end":9949.736,"text":"這樣子我覺得是這樣人民的標準他只有0跟1沒有什麼我一點點你只能告訴他這個能不能吃"},{"start":9976.428,"end":9977.429,"text":"我們進口到他們的關稅是6%多其他國家是4%多"},{"start":10006.581,"end":10006.841,"text":"時間剩下40秒了"},{"start":10036.608,"end":10052.029,"text":"我希望最後來,我們碳費審議的作業現在大概決定是300塊開始還是我們還有自主減量,我們還有優惠措施,那明年會開始計算明年已經出來了嗎?"},{"start":10055.143,"end":10074.604,"text":"報告委員那個10月7號有最後一次的審議委員會預計優惠費率應該會出來那您預計是多少目前我看到委員的討論大概是100塊的上下應該會先這樣走對一個範圍你要循序漸進不要讓我們企業一下通通沒辦法大家都沒辦法接受大家都跑掉了"},{"start":10083.407,"end":10105.848,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員也謝謝卓院長報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽的是雲林縣斗六鎮里長聯誼會的朋友是不是鎮長也有來然後我們在此歡迎他們是斗南鎮的里長聯誼會還有鎮長"},{"start":10109.222,"end":10134.649,"text":"接下來我們繼續質詢請蘇巧惠委員質詢有沒有聲音好 謝謝副院長那我們請卓院長卓院長請備詢"},{"start":10145.798,"end":10168.425,"text":"蘇委員好院長好 院長辛苦了那我想這麼多的委員其實有很多都問到了一個相同的問題就是我們非常關心的國土計劃法所以我今天也想就這個問題來跟您請教我想國土計劃法的重要性是非常清楚的因為它就是讓全國的土地在規劃與利用有一致的標準"},{"start":10168.965,"end":10198.2,"text":"而且呢在進行詳細的調查之後就未來我們國土的功能分區的使用他是會有一定的總量管制這沒有問題嘛對不對好可是那請問院長為什麼現在感覺上國土計畫這麼好的一個法律要實施起來就困難重重呢委員應該清楚我們國土計畫法的實施已經延過一次了是啊那再回覆過來現在我們發現的問題有幾個縣市是沒有送來他的功能表的有九個縣市"},{"start":10200.011,"end":10216.867,"text":"但是在說明的過程當中我個人會覺得我們對國土計劃法的內容要說明清楚讓廣大的農民朋友知道那目前來看相當的困難原始的設計是不是現在沒有辦法對大家了解接受但是我們還請內政部跟農業部"},{"start":10220.17,"end":10234.461,"text":"委員長你又講到一個點就是我也非常同意其實我認為現在實施的困難真的是兩個面向第一個是民眾對於國土計劃法的規定其實不太了解所以很多的"},{"start":10235.242,"end":10258.273,"text":"反對其實是來自於誤解比如說第一個他們就不清楚國土計劃法的重要精神之一就是保障既有的合法權益只要你是既有的合法權益其實這是完全受保護的不管你是屬於哪一種未來被分在哪一種類別上面既有權益合法權益是完全被保障但這個資訊其實不夠清楚第二個是因為"},{"start":10259.213,"end":10285,"text":"主要的規劃權力就是在地方政府所以相同的地貌有可能會因為他在不同的縣市不同的主管單位畫出來的不太一樣的功能分區這當然民眾心中就有所不平啊那所以院長我今天就讓你實務看一下院長你有看過這一張表嗎這個俗稱圈差表院長有看過嗎圈差表"},{"start":10287.297,"end":10299.433,"text":"有看過 這就是我們國土功能的分區未來容許使用的情形所以它的不同類別將來圈圈叉叉就代表它可以或不可以好 那我就問你 你圈圈叉叉知道是什麼嗎"},{"start":10302.235,"end":10303.856,"text":"管制強度不同管制密度"},{"start":10318.402,"end":10344.956,"text":"每一種類別確實阿可以秀一下我的表單嗎就不同的類別讓院長看一下不同類別他真的後面的圈和差和他的時薪上面有數字等等真的不一樣可見得你被分在哪一類確實就會有不同的發展這院長同意吧沒問題好那院長你知道農事和乘二之一的差別嗎農事和乘二之一"},{"start":10348.756,"end":10361.4,"text":"我跟委員說明 農事的部分就是原來的鄉村區的一個聚落的部分跟原住民的聚落的部分規劃在那個農事如果你的周圍都是農地把你包圍著你就農事嘛對不對"},{"start":10366.482,"end":10366.882,"text":"那我現在來讓你看這張圖"},{"start":10393.863,"end":10402.247,"text":"委員長你看一下這張圖現在這個粉紅色有框起來的這個部分它的周圍都是農二那你覺得這粉紅色應該化為什麼農四吧農二就是優良的農地嘛對嘛那所以它整個這個粉紅色完全被農二包圍著所以這個農二這個粉紅色要化為什麼還是陳部長"},{"start":10416.713,"end":10440.441,"text":"我覺得這個要實際看它的一個面積跟它的一個區位農事啦我告訴你啦現在這個化為農事啦對那個是農事那個聚落是農事好啦這個粉紅色化為農事啦好來下一張圖下一張圖來這一個紅色我要問你的是紅色的你猜它被化為什麼它被農一農二包圍著啊它的周圍也都是農地啊那你猜它被化為什麼也不用猜啦這是實際上已經發生的對啊"},{"start":10445.469,"end":10465.857,"text":"他是乘二之一阿他是乘二之一那你剛剛說農事和乘二之一不一樣那我再把你這兩張圖合併在一起院長這裡是哪裡你知道嗎這裡這裡就是我新北英哥和隔壁桃園阿"},{"start":10467.385,"end":10494.3,"text":"這裡就是我們在人為的行政區上畫了一條線可是我眼睛看過去它是同樣的一片地呀我的農地不會說在這個空中給你設立一個高牆說新北在這裡桃園在這裡我就是一望而去相同的農地然後我有兩個聚落可是因為它分別在新北市和桃園市它被畫出來的不一樣"},{"start":10495.336,"end":10501.838,"text":"那所以我的英哥鄉親當然就問我啦就問我說 欸 委員啊 為什麼一樣的農地點館 啊我是農事 啊他是成二之一 啊這中來的發展會不一樣嗎"},{"start":10508.999,"end":10516.441,"text":"我可以很清楚的回答 但是第二到底為什麼他是農事 隔壁是乘二之一 這個我就不太清楚了 難怪他們的心中會有很大的問號"},{"start":10533.664,"end":10560.72,"text":"所以我覺得今天在這裡因為他有太多太多的例外條件比如說他有可能說我這個地方將來還有什麼城市興起的狀況城市發展不同條件這個不同縣市層級的地方政府他們有不同的藍圖想像那當然就有不同的狀況嘛所以我會認為的是當地方政府報上來之後其實中央"},{"start":10561.781,"end":10573.054,"text":"中央應該要有全國一致的審查標準我認為這才是國土計畫的精神展現之所在院長你同意我的看法嗎"},{"start":10577.08,"end":10596.86,"text":"明年4月之前我們應該有充裕的時間是 所以我的進一步主張更甚至是 其實應該是我們要催促地方政府趕快上出來留給中央足夠完備的時間來審查 欸審查不可能是只有勾和插就把你退件 不可能 這一定是來來回回一個很長的過程"},{"start":10598.061,"end":10624.807,"text":"所以地方政府如果要真的保護大家的權益其實他也應該要趕快送出來來跟地方來跟中央做討論然後為什麼這個地方是這樣畫那樣畫有什麼樣的規矩阿全國其他的地方怎麼畫最後讓中央層級大家有一定的標準把它建制下來我認為這才是國土規劃的精神阿不是應該這樣嗎第一個我們希望他今年的6月30要送來"},{"start":10625.447,"end":10642.991,"text":"現在已經延誤了 明年的4月30 截止5月就開始實施 這第一個再來我們希望是 照國土計畫法的45條是一併公告才能保障該有多少土地做什麼樣的使用 全國一致的這個視野來看那這兩個目前來看都有相當的困難"},{"start":10643.809,"end":10661.512,"text":"是啊 所以我其實瞭解國土計畫的好處而且甚至我等一下還可以跟院長的兩位部長報告其實國土計畫上路更好的地方是它還可以解決很多長年多年沒有辦法解決的問題這真的是好事啊"},{"start":10661.912,"end":10682.457,"text":"可是第一資訊傳達的不夠清楚第二全國的標準是否一致讓人民的感受覺得公平我覺得這兩大問題其實是應該要被解決才有辦法如期上路這是我誠心的從地方反應過來的意見但解方是什麼解方是地方政府計畫要趕快送來啦"},{"start":10683.957,"end":10684.899,"text":"反而我認為中央應該要花力氣在怎麼要求鼓勵或者是"},{"start":10700.388,"end":10721.653,"text":"內政部 農業部都非常的繼續質詢 可以請內政部說明一下他的進度是 謝謝委員 我想委員剛所提到的非常的正確 其實國土計畫它有二級審議它在一級審議 在地方政府審議的時候有他們的功能 但是它也可以跟我們的中央來討論問題是現在不願意送上來他們講的理由 跟我們所知道的完全是背道而馳"},{"start":10722.253,"end":10722.273,"text":"對於臺灣"},{"start":10742.466,"end":10762.511,"text":"全體的國土的這個長久大計做比較長遠的影響所以我們還是希望能夠從善如流可以跟很多地方縣市政府來多溝通希望他們可以在一定時間內送上來譬如說新北市他們有曾經提到說他們有2000多件這樣的爭議可是他們慢慢已經在解決當中現在剩下大概只有800到1200左右"},{"start":10764.591,"end":10764.871,"text":"國土計畫未來的功能"},{"start":10780.546,"end":10799.584,"text":"而且部長我覺得你應該要讓民眾除了剛剛誤解的部分要能夠澄清之外要讓大家能夠理解真正能夠保障權益反而是好的國土計畫上路上路之後是真正保障權益這個部分要讓大家能夠理解不是不送反而是這樣的狀況對"},{"start":10801.927,"end":10824.864,"text":"計劃送了之後 中央要有足夠的時間審議才完整的上路這是我的主張 我也不是主張衝突的直接把國土計劃上路我認為這是不合理的為什麼 我再讓你看下一題你就會知道國土計劃把他上路之前要做的前置作業其實非常的多院長可能不是很清楚新北的部分因為畢竟我們在新北比較久"},{"start":10825.925,"end":10850.338,"text":"新北其實有13個地區我們新北29區竟然有13個區是含有礦區土地的喔礦區不是只在新北的少少地方是包括我土樹山陰啊甚至其他地方有13個地區都過去有採礦行為而因為採礦它就變成礦區土地結果現在不採了以後會變成什麼它就變成廢礦區土地部長"},{"start":10852.679,"end":10879.627,"text":"你可以解釋一下跟大家說明一下廢礦區土地現在可以怎麼利用嗎沒有辦法利用什麼都不能用嘛除非沒有公告是啊所以它一定成為廢礦區土地它除了既有的房舍你可以修繕之外房舍你要新增你要增建不行更不要說我如果在這個地方我將來想要做礦區的文物、歷史、觀光、興建什麼都不行什麼都不行結果它佔了清北這麼大的面積這個問題難道不解決嗎"},{"start":10882.108,"end":10902.691,"text":"所以我會認為其實國土計劃如果能夠上路的話我們的礦區問題其實才有解方啊而且而且在國但是不是應該而且啦應該是但是但是剛剛一再的說嘛開宗明義國土計劃只保障在國土計劃上路前合法的部分嘛"},{"start":10903.251,"end":10917.879,"text":"所以如果他現在還是不合法那將來國土計畫上路他也不合法啊他即便是地目被調整了但他的權益還是有問題所以在這個地方為什麼我要利用總質詢的部分跟院長請教就是"},{"start":10918.559,"end":10945.116,"text":"我發現我們新北的礦區土地甚至包含了特專區在瑞芳京九地區有當年的國營事業就是採金礦的台金公司所留下來的大範圍的特專區特定專用區這其實是需要經濟部也要下來能夠一起解決不然的話我們這個你知道嗎這個我們如果要變更的話其實是需要提出事業這個"},{"start":10946.517,"end":10965.444,"text":"事業目的使用計畫結果這個事業目的使用計畫經過35年現在在哪裡沒有人知道中央也沒有人知道地方也沒有人知道沒有任何人知道的狀況下那這個地方要怎麼變更申請根本無解啊所以在國土計畫上路之前有相當多的配套措施也就是要讓我們"},{"start":10966.684,"end":10982.714,"text":"可以成為合法的身份以配合國土系化去調整他的地木的狀況我認為這種前置作業也是必須由中央督促地方政府趕快來實施不曉得部長今天在這裡聽到我們的呼籲是不是可以"},{"start":10983.254,"end":11004.111,"text":"要求拜託督促協助也協助啦新北市政府趕快處理這個問題那院長以您的高度是不是可以拜託請相關的各部會就是剛剛由向點名的農業部經濟部甚至文化部等等能夠一起下來幫我們解決這樣礦區土地的再利用重利用的問題這是我的請求"},{"start":11006.533,"end":11021.962,"text":"謝謝委員從520以來我們一直認為國土激發法是一個非常重要而且必須實施的所以剛剛您說的包括內政部都一直在跟地方做一些溝通尤其是在最近這幾個月下來因為6月30一過我們知道時程已經相當的急迫了"},{"start":11022.322,"end":11048.813,"text":"希望在明年4月之前有充裕的時間做二級的審查所以這個活動我們一直在進行當中這樣我如果去到這個礦區的這個地方告訴他們原來這個法跟你們的未來是息息相關你多年的問題終於可以因為這個法通過解決大家都會鼓掌拍手我覺得這就是解釋的問題啦委員說的國土計畫不只解決農地的問題是解決國家土地是解決國家的問題所以我非常期待不會動起來大家一起努力"},{"start":11051.909,"end":11052.75,"text":"謝謝蘇委員謝謝卓院長下一位請吳宗憲委員質詢"},{"start":11078.585,"end":11084.591,"text":"麻煩請院長、法務部長、經濟部長、交通部長羅院長、法務部長、交通部長還有經濟部長"},{"start":11108.116,"end":11126.617,"text":"吳委員好院長部長各位早安院長在3個多月前我質詢的時候曾經有跟你提過我們希望說你不是只擔任民進黨大師兄其實你要當我們中華民國的大師兄要照顧我們全台灣的"},{"start":11127.778,"end":11149.608,"text":"但是這段時間從國會改革的激烈的鬥爭還有新清安物價通膨兩岸緊張還有總統放棄和平的這種想法這個其實讓我當初覺得說希望說院長能夠擔任全民的大師兄這個好像都是背道而馳"},{"start":11150.808,"end":11172.469,"text":"那我想齁在上一次有很多部長請假這件事情我覺得讓我想到其實我們當初國會改革的法案裡面其實挑問裡面就有說怎麼樣可以請假只要經過主席同意就可以但是當然這個法案到最後被大家你們聯手把他擋在外面嘛那否則其實以韓院長的個性部長向他"},{"start":11173.951,"end":11186.709,"text":"找個原因請教我想韓院長應該都會同意也不會造成後面這麼多問題甚至大家就談論到說這是不是違反了憲法權力分立上面行政院應該對立法院負責的這個概念"},{"start":11187.537,"end":11215.116,"text":"那我覺得我看到了第8屆第4次會期的時候也是有類似的狀況但民進黨那時候是用迴憲亂政當作理由直接要求行政院的江一樺前院長要先道歉才能上台進行施政報告那至少今天國民黨的做法不是把整個議場鬧亂轟轟你再回過頭去想第8屆的時候民進黨的那個做法你會覺得說"},{"start":11216.457,"end":11221.543,"text":"我是建議說還是不要這樣子不要把立法院不當一回事至少你要向民意負責"},{"start":11224.636,"end":11250.624,"text":"然後另外就是我覺得這段時間你要去思考一個點總統他依照憲法他負責的範圍應該是國防外交但是總統卻被另外一個部長去認證說他可以直接下指示對於你底下的部長去下一道命令去指示去訓斥他其實這個東西就坐實了由部長來認證我們的總統其實是一個獨裁而且破壞憲政體制的總統"},{"start":11251.644,"end":11278.735,"text":"因為總統他認為他不需要到立法院接受質詢結果他卻可以去指揮行政院底下的部長我覺得這個都不對這整個在破壞我國的憲政體制那民進黨不能這樣民進黨不能說憲法對自己有利的時候挑來用動不動罵別人毀憲亂政但是真正想破壞憲法卻是民進黨政府他只挑對自己有利的東西來用然後整天在那邊喊一些莫名其妙毀憲亂政的話"},{"start":11281.066,"end":11299.254,"text":"我希望說我們大家能夠好好的彼此磨合行政院跟我們這些立法委員之間那我相信第一次我們是可以好好談如果第二次還是這樣行政院還是這樣子的讓這個國家這樣下去的話我想民怨還是會出來尤其你看最近總統的信任度"},{"start":11300.477,"end":11323.035,"text":"滿意度跌下來不滿意度又上升其實在在都顯現說這段時間也許施政上面是有問題的那可不可以聽聽我們在講什麼不要說所有的事情都你想幹什麼就是你就自己就自以妄為那這段時間呢2022年我們的數據來看其實貧富差距是加大的那政府最喜歡用吉尼係數"},{"start":11324.195,"end":11345.325,"text":"那吉尼係數我們看最高組別跟最低組別的家庭所得差距已經到6.15倍用吉尼係數來算已經到0.342那0.4的話依據聯合國的標準就會造成社會動盪那我們其實每年都在往那個方向去走這個請行政院千萬要注意到我們不要往"},{"start":11346.004,"end":11373.197,"text":"那個0.4的方向就是聯合國認定會造成社會動盪的這個方向還有就是目前國人的待業痛苦指數是往上飆那個開心指數是往下降這個都有數據可以證明那還有75%的社會新鮮人認為說每個月都存不到錢那我再跟院長報告其實月光族現在已經是幸福了因為有非常大比例其實是根本還不夠生活費"},{"start":11376.099,"end":11393.211,"text":"國家整體的發展,其實我們這段時間CPI一直在暴漲根據最近的瑞士的商務管理學院公布我們的經濟是已經從第6名掉到第26名"},{"start":11394.488,"end":11417.41,"text":"那這個東西都一直指數一直在往下降這可能行政院自己要稍微注意一下那還有這段時間的新清安政策其實讓大家非常痛苦已經4年後的新清安會讓4年後的年輕人首購族會更痛苦這個大家都已經可以預測到所有的這個行內的人都已經知道這個狀況所以尤其是我們現在的那個房價"},{"start":11418.875,"end":11437.275,"text":"平均人民不吃不喝目前已經全國平均到10.35年了那台北甚至到16.08年這個政府到底在創造的是什麼蔡政府上任的第一年告訴大家他要處理的是居住正義就他的居住正義帶來的是建商的居住正義就人民是越來越痛苦"},{"start":11437.856,"end":11466.068,"text":"好那接下來我想請問院長跟法務部長我想請教一下大法官千方百計的幫這37個死刑犯找免死的理由那不要再跟我說死刑何限並沒有說什麼實質廢死大家都內行人不用講這個外行話那我請教一下院長還有部長判決如果被廢棄之後死刑犯會不會被放掉"},{"start":11468.528,"end":11496.807,"text":"跟委員報告齁那個這個是那個憲判的意旨齁那個判決因為必須要先總長先審核這個是有非常上訴的事由之後才會徵最高法院來提來提非常上訴當然最高法院他就這個案件如果這樣委員會講的是有撤銷的話這是一個憲判的意旨這個是擠壓擠壓你不要跟我講這個憲判你就跟我說如果回復"},{"start":11497.828,"end":11501.112,"text":"在判決之前不會放掉根據那個監獄行政148條第一項的規定這是能繼續收容中"},{"start":11512.769,"end":11541.391,"text":"他死刑判決已經被非常上訴掉了還可以收容嗎那個是判決之前如果說非常上訴最高法院判決他是重新來有羈押的我們會建請他羈押有羈押的這是重新計算的那法院不押呢法院可以不押啊如果法院不押呢那這37個人你們怎麼處理這個我們建立法院要羈押"},{"start":11542.608,"end":11547.271,"text":"部長重罪羈押重罪不能當作唯一羈押的理由這應該是一個common sense吧部長"},{"start":11573.209,"end":11598.804,"text":"這個我想法院一定是根據訴訟法第7色的規定來做一個懲罰來羈押部長重罪不是羈押的唯一理由這你可以去隨便問一下一個檢察官你不能犯這種最低階的錯誤這個我們不是低階錯誤我們就是就法論法好啦沒關係我不跟你爭辯反正我告訴你就是這樣重罪不是唯一羈押的理由所以這些人有可能會被法院放掉那你們有沒有因應之道"},{"start":11602.591,"end":11604.552,"text":"如果法院不押,你們有沒有因應之道?"},{"start":11633.171,"end":11657.244,"text":"委員您也是擔任過檢察官您也知道跟法院之間這種關係法院真的不押檢察官也沒有辦法但是我認為這幾個案件他除了是一個嚴重之罪之外他都經過確定的審判所以很確定他在這個行為人必須負這個責任我認為法院還是會做最清楚的如果需要的話最清楚的決定"},{"start":11664.186,"end":11669.997,"text":"除非法院有判決無罪要釋放之外只要判決是有罪的我認為法院會押"},{"start":11674.135,"end":11691.765,"text":"法官不押,基壓有他一定的要件,那依照我來看,現行的這些人他符合要件不是每個人都百分之百符合,所以常常檢察官認為要押,法官就沒有押嘛,那如果今天法官沒有押的情況下,把人"},{"start":11692.645,"end":11719.073,"text":"沒有其他的理由了那我只是在請教法務部有沒有因應的作為就有什麼跟我講那麼多那就沒有意思了部長院長大家都內行人不用在那邊講外行話法院如果不押的話法務部請問有什麼作為題目就那麼簡單我不認為這些已經經過三審定言的案件法院的判決的結果會有不押的一個情形"},{"start":11721.94,"end":11747.822,"text":"部長你以前當檢察官的時候 申請羈押有沒有法院 不過你那時候可能沒有這個問題全國的檢察官生押都認為法院會押 但是法官常常都把人放掉 所以部長我們對法院要有信心因為你也沒有命令法官的這個權限嘛 好吧你沒有辦法回答這個問題 我知道你們根本就還沒有任何因應的作為但是這個問題已經吵十幾年了 到今天跟我說沒有因應的作為 那我也是嘆為觀止啊"},{"start":11749.922,"end":11773.562,"text":"這我想全國的這37個死刑犯他所造成的61條人命的家屬該不能接受你們的這個意見了第二個問題請教院長跟部長執行他們判決死刑確定之後收容的這段時間將來可不可以如果將來改判無期徒刑的話或改判有期徒刑的話可不可以折抵刑期收容的期間"},{"start":11776.026,"end":11790.206,"text":"這個因為根據刑法的規定必須要執行之後才有折抵的問題那現在是待執行待執行的實行犯這個首長是不能依法的不能折抵那如果說我們那個修法的這份我們也是反對折抵的"},{"start":11792.291,"end":11806.929,"text":"就是這部分你們反對折抵嘛那我想說這個只是一個確定下來因為以前沒有這個問題那現在既然發生了因為如果可以折抵的話會造成很多人將來萬一判無嫉妒刑他馬上就可以申請假釋對不對因為最終審頂多壓6次12個月嘛"},{"start":11810.794,"end":11826.981,"text":"那如果說12個月後他判無期徒刑那再回過頭去算那個收容的期間有的已經20幾年還沒有執行嘛那收容的期間加進來搞不好適用舊法15年得假釋的申請的話那搞不好他們在判決"},{"start":11828.507,"end":11849.947,"text":"無期徒刑的那個時候他就可以申請假釋了所以我蠻認同部長剛剛說的收容期間你們不會列入刑期的計算我是要確認這個點部長這有沒有什麼問題現實的情況就是不能折抵我現在是一個很深刻的期望這我本來只想問五分鐘但花太多時間了"},{"start":11850.592,"end":11868.83,"text":"我希望一件事情,因為這幾天那個新北哥歐安那個楊爸爸他昨天在接受訪問的時候甚至哭出來了我們都有小孩子嘛,我們都知道白髮人送黑髮人那種心痛那絕對是傷痛欲絕,我們都能夠理解嘛我希望一件事情,不要對這些被害者的家屬"},{"start":11870.401,"end":11871.442,"text":"我們一定要讓這個國家對好人更好對壞人更好"},{"start":11898.479,"end":11910.835,"text":"我們還是要讓這些犯罪的行為人要讓他們付出該有的代價部長你跟我以前都是檢察官我們對於正義真的是無可救藥的熱情我們一定要這樣堅持下去好不好"},{"start":11912.09,"end":11933.819,"text":"謝謝委員我們體會委員的心情這個部分我們是站在同一個線上對這種在為非作歹的這些歹徒我覺得公權力一定要伸張起來謝謝院長對就是公權力我們一定要讓他伸張我們要讓人民要尊重公權力這樣社會才會平安所以我前一天我有講"},{"start":11935.34,"end":11943.254,"text":"當人民千方百計的在追求出入平安的時候我們的政府不能千方百計的為這些犯罪行為的人去求情"},{"start":11944.179,"end":11965.65,"text":"這些人他甚至是我們每年有非常多件殺人計稅的案子但是我們很多年才會有一件死刑案子所以這些人都是法官認證要永久與社會隔絕的那今天我們又千方百計的為他們求情其實對於這些被害的家屬情何以堪那我再請教一下院長院長"},{"start":11967.538,"end":11989.255,"text":"還包括那個法務部長我們其實在之前我們就提出來要求說因為我們一直希望說接避責保護法我們讓他能夠過讓他能夠順利的立法但是呢我們要求能夠在兩個月內把草案送過來因為草案已經出來了嘛但是一直沒有送來可不可以告訴我們"},{"start":11990.135,"end":12014.051,"text":"趕快把他送來因為我們經過上一次的國會改革法案動不動你就給我送視線然後我們今天我們跟民眾黨我們有一些草案希望出來結果到時候又要被你們送視線嗎所以是不是行政院這邊可以趕快把揭秘者這個草案送到立法院來讓我們能夠審我們能夠把各個版本趕快審出一個對國家有幫助的"},{"start":12014.992,"end":12032.147,"text":"因為國家有很多弊案包括之前的雞蛋超市的問題武器採購的問題疫苗採購的問題我們真的深刻的希望有這些接避者能夠勇於出來接避但是我們真的需要他們我們需要這個法案過關可不可以請你們趕快把草案送到立法院來"},{"start":12033.086,"end":12051.602,"text":"包括法務部也正在審查過程當中我們認為對於公私部門要做怎麼樣的原則性的處置還在深度的討論但是進度是有的那我希望這個能夠來凝聚更高一點的共識我們再來放在修法過程當中時間真的太久了如果說你們對私部門還有所"},{"start":12055.794,"end":12056.615,"text":"這部分我們那個保護部已經"},{"start":12075.953,"end":12103.813,"text":"年尾的第15版因為我們要廣大各界的一個意見吧應該跟委員清楚現在本來是公私合併後來公私公私分立的立法的一個政策那我想公部門這邊我們再廣大意見我們是提出第15個版本那我只能拜託你們速度能夠加快好不好如果真的不行的話那我們這邊就只好用我們的版本開始審理我們就只能這樣做因為從上個會期我們就一直拜託你們了而且這個法案已經躺在你們那裡躺了很久"},{"start":12104.193,"end":12132.228,"text":"所以真的要麻煩你們速度能夠快那再來 院長其實這段時間我們看到很多問題包括我個人認為能源政策是整個錯誤的政策你不要跟我講什麼AI內閣啦AI最需要的就是電力嘛那你現在講你以後將來電力的狀況能不能夠補上這個缺口我覺得明眼人都知道未來會怎麼樣只是大家現在都不談而已好 那我們現在先不著重這個問題我想跟院長請教一下"},{"start":12135.5,"end":12151.793,"text":"煙圈這個東西我認為這個東西我們是不是應該思考一下最近是不是很長一段時間我們該漲的不漲不該漲的卻一直漲比如說電價我認為說一個正確的能源政策他就不會說讓電價今天漲成這樣"},{"start":12153.815,"end":12165.767,"text":"那我現在也為什麼不想再問電的問題因為我覺得問來問去答案都是騙人的就像最早期民進黨跟我們講說台電在偷電結果呢 台電有沒有偷電 沒有啊民進黨政府跟我說"},{"start":12166.84,"end":12191.808,"text":"御能之後臺灣不會缺電結果呢我認為不缺電是騙人那告訴我說不會大規模的漲電價這也都騙人所以到最後我已經被騙了三次了我真的沒有辦法再相信你們對於能源方面的給我們的保證那我是請教一下有關那個菸娟的部分其實我們菸娟已經非常久沒有去討論這個議題了我不知道院長知不知道這個部分"},{"start":12193.368,"end":12193.928,"text":"市長市長市長"},{"start":12217.028,"end":12236.687,"text":"的制度會做檢討因為今年應該會再開會因為每兩年要開一次會我們是不是要再思考這個部分因為我從國建署的資料來看CNN人口是上升的這是國建署自己公布的資料所以如果這樣的話你去漲電價不該漲的漲結果燕捐從98年到現在沒有調漲過"},{"start":12241.411,"end":12269.834,"text":"我所上的資料就是91年5塊95年10塊然後到最近是98年調到20塊之後就沒有再思考過這部分再麻煩你們因為我現在在外面看到很多地方都抽菸的人越來越多我沒有歧視他們但是我們希望他們健康所以我們是不是增加一點他們的負擔讓他們少抽一點對自己也比較好他們的家人也會很高興部長院長你們做出這樣的決策好嗎這部分再麻煩你們一下"},{"start":12273.101,"end":12301.112,"text":"另外經濟部長這邊我有一個問題想要請教一下就是我們在2022年有提出一個能源轉型就是淨零排放路徑跟策略總說明裡面有四個領域就是能源轉型、產業轉型、生活轉型跟社會轉型那我想請問一下我們總共編列的預算有1161億那你知不知道"},{"start":12302.544,"end":12323.201,"text":"我們這個所謂的四大領域的12項關鍵戰略是什麼使用經費最高的前三名是什麼請問那個部長知道嗎這個部分我不是那麼清楚好吧沒關係可是這花了我們一千多億所以部長要麻煩你不能不清楚"},{"start":12323.991,"end":12343.169,"text":"那其實我們使用最高的費用最高是電力系統儲能第二是風電光電第三是節能那我必須講一下這個還是源自於我個人認為錯誤的能源政策至少我自己個人這麼認為我知道各位一定有很多理由但是我個人認為我國能源政策是完全錯誤而且他帶動的那個"},{"start":12345.247,"end":12373.848,"text":"﹚"},{"start":12374.198,"end":12380.656,"text":"在立場上面也許我們各有立場但是我想心裡大家可能想法也不會插到太多所以"},{"start":12382.329,"end":12407.655,"text":"所以我剛剛跟那個部長說你還是要去弄清楚因為花了一千多億不能說都沒有什麼效果出來你剛剛那個成本的這樣的標示不是非常的正確核電的部分要很多的隱性的成本跟未來的成本那風電太陽能光電它也有非常多隱性的成本他們將來這些東西過了年限之後的銷毀以及它對於自然環境的傷害"},{"start":12408.595,"end":12427.063,"text":"這個東西院長也是隱形的成本但是呢兩個權衡之下誰好誰壞你要去思考為什麼全世界的主流是那樣我們反主流而行然後你現在跟我說的隱形成本世界的大廠來台灣都要求我們要提供綠電說我們必須要提供綠電給他們才能跟世界接軌"},{"start":12431.025,"end":12458.355,"text":"但是你要去思考一下這真的是永續了嗎還是一樣還有一個SDGs他所對於產品生產能源的要求他的能源要綠能乾淨能源的要求這個未來做不做得到將來碳稅的問題將來某些國家或歐盟地區等等不願意採購骯髒能源所生產的產品這個都是我們要考量我們不能把這個責任丟給10年後20年後的這些人民他們自己去承受"},{"start":12458.695,"end":12461.597,"text":"這是我個人素選的認為沒有產生現在的核能跟核廢我們也願意開放來討論的我本人潛見公參那我們來看看之後我們說的這東西會不會變成是一個事實"},{"start":12473.865,"end":12500.507,"text":"好那我們先我們花那麼多錢我們希望降低碳排但是其實這段時間碳排還是一樣非常的嚴重那我我想說這個也是再回過頭去還是還是一樣能源的問題啦因為一個錯誤能源政策讓我們每個人均的碳排指數其實非常的高甚至超越到超越日本韓國那些所以我們這個對嗎這我想說可能再麻煩"},{"start":12501.816,"end":12503.958,"text":"其他部長是不是請回部長我想請問一下"},{"start":12526.963,"end":12550.843,"text":"你之前有說這個台鐵誤點5分鐘是可以接受那真的誤點是好嗎那你知不知道去年誤點的狀況是什麼我沒有說5分鐘可以接受我那天覺得誤點5分鐘對我來說當然沒有像高鐵那麼精準所以還有改善的空間但是台鐵他們給我的數據他們算的所謂的誤點率的部分5分鐘以內算在準點率裡面"},{"start":12552.298,"end":12575.425,"text":"但是我會跟你說私人的企業可不這麼接受甚至你不要講別的我們立法院開會9點開會9點就要開會也沒有所謂的霧點這個東西所以這東西你這樣講了以後底下台鐵人都鬆一口氣超開心五分鐘部長認證OK這是他們原本就訂好的標準這不是我講的這是他們原本就訂好的標準但我還是有要求"},{"start":12576.061,"end":12604.588,"text":"像高鐵這麼精準才是大家想要的目標所以我希望台鐵的準點率要再加強那你總是要有一些想法跟措施出來嗎那所以我剛問你你知不知道台鐵去年誤點多少次你知道嗎次數我不曉得您的數字是143萬次然後發生率是五成其實這個是還滿驚人的那所以我們可以這樣子嗎就是說部長你不能說這個五分鐘這個"},{"start":12606.448,"end":12622.144,"text":"好啦那沒關係不管你怎麼講我認為他應該要更準點啦我認為他應該要更準點這個我的想法會跟委員是一樣的他應該要更準點讓民眾不管是通勤也好或者是長途旅遊也好可以抓準自己的時間不會影響到上下班好吧那"},{"start":12624.98,"end":12641.981,"text":"我們就只能跟那新任的部長,那你還是要解決這個台鐵問題,因為我自己辦公室主任他常常遲到我辦公室主任非常常遲到,因為他都要坐台鐵來上班然後每次我跟他溝通的時候,我就講不下去了,因為台鐵就是常常誤點"},{"start":12642.702,"end":12648.626,"text":"台鐵誤點是一個很大的問題,要麻煩,尤其很多私部門開會是不允許遲到的那你這樣會讓有一些民眾其實他們是困擾那第二個問題我要跟部長就教的就是"},{"start":12665.365,"end":12678.831,"text":"捷運或高鐵的站台都有裝設那個門月台門我自己以前的工作經驗我曾經也驗過幾次那個就是鐵路的事故"},{"start":12681.032,"end":12683.575,"text":"報告委員我們目前有規劃在高雄站的部分"},{"start":12702.193,"end":12720.469,"text":"臺鐵"},{"start":12720.709,"end":12732.126,"text":"第一個測試的閘門會在高雄完成當他完成測試之後可以做我們就會挑比較人多的站就是風險相對高的站我們會來設置這個月台門的部分"},{"start":12733.391,"end":12751.017,"text":"那至少就是比較大的站 人多的站 有可能推擠的站 你是不是要優先處理嗎那當然有一些小的站啊 那個當然你們沒有優先處理 我們都可以理解嘛但這部分至少要做吧 那目前火車是不是有那個沒有辦法停到定點的那個位置 有沒有這個問題"},{"start":12752.097,"end":12768.57,"text":"因為他們每一種列車的設計不太一樣高低也會有落差然後門的前後也會有落差但是我看他們停車的部分都還是停在設定的點上面停在設定點上這個是沒有問題的但是門的位置可能都不太一樣"},{"start":12769.57,"end":12797.607,"text":"這樣我知道所以問題是在你們的位置那另外還有一件事情就是我們那個臺東的部分就因為我們臺東那個立委黃建斌立委其實他一直在協調臺東的旅遊補助能夠跟花蓮看齊但是他努力了很久也沒有用可是上次民進黨莊瑞雄委員一到花蓮去任養服務處之後那你們馬上就同意而且他對外宣傳說他搞定了那我想請問一下這是怎麼回事"},{"start":12799.702,"end":12824.071,"text":"不是我們一直在朝這個方向努力包含我本人到花蓮跟花蓮的旅宿業者跟觀光業者座談的時候也有台東的代表過來他也有跟我表示這樣的意見跟誰去任養花蓮這個任養台東這絕對沒有關係我上次到花蓮之後我們就決定說花蓮跟台東要同時"},{"start":12825.191,"end":12828.434,"text":"我之前跟院長報告是說部長以前是政治系出身的"},{"start":12847.079,"end":12865.093,"text":"那當然啦 我是說 真心俗稱 但在施政上面我覺得還是不要有那種政治的分別當然我們現在 我們看到的是結論嘛那結論看到的就是說 國民黨的立委黃建斌一直在在努力奔走 可是他達不到什麼效果但是 鍾瑞雄委員一到台東卻"},{"start":12866.314,"end":12895.703,"text":"就可以很順利的做到很多事情那施政上面總是不要有敵我之分那如果是誤解那也可以用其他的方式來讓大家知道這是個誤解好不好好那最後我想跟月朗報告因為時間不夠了就是老人的問題因為現在低收入的那個族群65歲以上的這低收入一直在增加那依照現在不動產的這個價格大家也都買不起所以是不是"},{"start":12896.94,"end":12897.641,"text":"謝謝吳委員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":12920.478,"end":12942.866,"text":"下一位楊耀委員的質詢已書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報報言會上午質詢到此為止本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案就不進行臨時提案之處理下午2點30分繼續開會進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":21179.497,"end":21188.22,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21212.773,"end":21215.691,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21256.937,"end":21259.605,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21329.718,"end":21351.674,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21355.776,"end":21360.196,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21394.537,"end":21396.618,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21421.834,"end":21423.378,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21454.548,"end":21465.771,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21494.487,"end":21510.93,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21517.31,"end":21537.722,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21555.776,"end":21563.507,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21619.106,"end":21623.53,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會進行施政報告之質詢請有號委員質詢"},{"start":21646.34,"end":21650.374,"text":"謝謝主席 有請行政院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21661.345,"end":21685.151,"text":"是 委員好 院長好那在這裡本席也是要先表達一下在開米風災 院長跟副院長還有包括工程會主委還有交通部還有警統會部第一時間的來協助開米風災那那時候配合許主席許縣長徵取的39億那這次有核定了33億多那這次徵取的這個經費"},{"start":21686.271,"end":21701.698,"text":"總質詢"},{"start":21702.609,"end":21722.569,"text":"請教一下左院長那在這次雙十國慶的一個主事節那在設計美學跟國家的象徵意涵的話如果讓你來打一個分數那就我們這次的國慶的主辦跟這個意向還有這些辛苦同仁的籌劃那我想問一下院長你可以打幾分我常常說這個"},{"start":21728.319,"end":21754.444,"text":"藝術是非常主觀的像這種技術是非常不打折的那藝術非常主觀你列出來是歷年來雙十國慶的各種的標誌我想大家可以自己看自己喜歡的這個早有預期但是就這一次來講如果打個分數的話那你覺得打個幾分覺得適合我覺得能夠把一個活動辦好的話每一個都象徵圓滿"},{"start":21756.007,"end":21757.928,"text":"我接著要針對地方的議題兩個議題先來跟您就教第一就是我們張南大橋的一個可行性"},{"start":21778.115,"end":21805.371,"text":"那在之前的話其實在上市交通委員會來辦考察本席有邀這交通委員會那時候是李孟彥部長來看我們這個地點的時候他這個是從彰化到南投以前原本預計要後續要做一個是快速道路那因為南投的鄉親有時候要坐高鐵必須要繞到雲林的林內再走到二水再到田中才能夠來搭乘高鐵非常的不方便"},{"start":21805.931,"end":21831.153,"text":"那所以說在這個蟑螂大橋未來也會連接著到包括彰化到海邊海線的一個貫穿那所以這個蟑螂大橋是本來也就在一個規劃上那這一次的考察有爭取到這個可行性評估的計畫那也謝謝交通部也是核定了預計就是將近800萬的經費還配合縣府的配額款來做可行性評估"},{"start":21831.974,"end":21855.192,"text":"那因為這樣子的一個重大建設是關係到南投跟彰化其實這兩個縣市需要有一個重大建設也能夠讓我們南投的鄉親搭高鐵更為便利所以本席想在這裡也請這個院長跟部長是不是持續來支持這個張南大橋的一個推動請部長了解說明一下"},{"start":21855.814,"end":21879.244,"text":"好 這個張南大橋委員也爭取了一段時間我看照片裡面李部長當時也有到現場跟我們的許縣長那我知道南投的鄉親很希望有這座大橋那彰化其實也有這種聲音也希望說有一個張南大橋對於彰化的鄉親要往南投去也比較方便而且他如果要去高速公路有時候從南投這邊可能會相對近一點所以這個部分中央也已經核定了這個"},{"start":21879.684,"end":21883.446,"text":"政策的推動尤其是建設的推動大型建設已經是延續了所以部長對於這個張蘭大小也會延續當初李孟彥部長一樣表達支持"},{"start":21898.655,"end":21912.321,"text":"是沒有錯那左院長也是表達支持有助於地方的我們都一起來研究成為一個地方大家需要的建設好謝謝因為這個是裡面有太多的故事但是總是南投鄉親的一個寄望"},{"start":21913.662,"end":21917.705,"text":"我們看到我們的一個重要的培訓選手的地方是南投的福星球場福星壘球場"},{"start":21939.781,"end":21939.801,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":21958.312,"end":21974.529,"text":"夠友好經費要夠建設要有新師訓練水平未來要好那所以說在這個南投縣的這個福星能夠打造為我國女壬選手的培訓基地是不是可以拜託我們的院長來表達支持"},{"start":21975.433,"end":21989.809,"text":"是 這個福星球場它在2023年也是亞洲盃女子壘球的比賽的場地可見除了硬體之外南投歷年來也有相當多的民間跟學校所這個籌備的籌組這個女壘球隊"},{"start":21992.532,"end":21992.552,"text":"委員："},{"start":22009.019,"end":22009.039,"text":"委員："},{"start":22026.58,"end":22051.23,"text":"那是不是就可以來支持相關這個我們福興這個場地的一些相關的整建因為現在有對尼磊有一些階段性的進度已經在進行那是不是要補充一下協會委員關心這一個怎麼樣讓南投能夠這個福興球場能夠成為我們包含南投成為尼磊的一個選手的一個培訓基地確實這個體委會提署"},{"start":22053.531,"end":22061.783,"text":"提署這一個我們今年也補助了270幾萬對這個相關的一些場地跟設施做一些改善做以上補充"},{"start":22062.731,"end":22090.631,"text":"那因為在我們地方上包括壘球運動是我們潘玉璇副議長那包括羅理事長體育會理事長都非常積極用心在推動那也非常有成果那也希望這個未來在這個培訓基地的部分我們不只經費在將來升個體育機運動發展部之後也能夠在那麼好的成績的這個女壘包括場地能夠持續給予支持是不是可以"},{"start":22094.487,"end":22113.863,"text":"是因為這個總是需要表個態當然我想這一個確實南投本來就是一個非常好的一個林磊的一個長期是一個特色的一個運動項目我想這一個體育署這邊會來支持成為女壘選手的培育基地是OK好謝謝"},{"start":22116.906,"end":22137.711,"text":"好那接著要就叫我們院長那等下也會跟這經濟部長相關那也有請部長那在審計部公布112年中央政府總預算審核報告揭露總預算跟特別稅出稅入的並計之後2024到2029年均為短差那2024年預計短處高達4905億"},{"start":22144.853,"end":22160.588,"text":"那在過去的8年許多的特別預算還進行這些許多比較算是撒錢跟討好的過程那也造成這個政府中央政府的財政長期負擔的一個非常沉重"},{"start":22161.289,"end":22180.462,"text":"所以過去來講說五年超徵稅收經濟表現良好但是在審計部提出的報告卻指出了未來五年將會入不敷出甚至經營的經費短處將近五千億元那在這樣子的美化的數字底下還是都是百姓的血跟淚"},{"start":22181.567,"end":22196.387,"text":"那過去所支出的這些錢未來還是要還的那不管是子孫要還甚至曾孫要還那這些錢要怎麼花花了多少負債多少中央政府還是必須要跟民眾講清楚當然"},{"start":22197.468,"end":22211.805,"text":"這個部分牽扯到過去的行政院長或是行政團隊左院長你是520之後就任現在也是在幫過去的這些施政的問題現在要去做改善 包括部長也是"},{"start":22212.566,"end":22240.655,"text":"那所以說還是要跟民眾講清楚因為國人不知道的是國債中已經創下了6兆4128億元平均未來每人都要負擔27.4萬元的歷史新高那再次總預算編列了3兆多創下了最高紀錄但是錢必須要花在刀口上因為這些稅收跟民脂民膏就是得來不易但是國人還在生活上還需要有更多的改善"},{"start":22242.318,"end":22270.449,"text":"所以跟軍隊組織總署所統計的8月的CPI的年增率啊2.36已經連續4個月突破了2%的通膨脊界線不管現在年輕人在外食還食物類房租甚至看醫生的掛號費、電費、機票、交通服務費等都在調漲最低工資不管調整錢包的鈔票一樣進了馬上就花出去所以其實現在民生過得還是蠻辛苦"},{"start":22271.289,"end":22271.309,"text":"委員長"},{"start":22302.17,"end":22319.022,"text":"本席要針對電價的問題來進行討論但是在問電價的問題許多民眾在關心這院長官邸的電費目前台電調查的結果如何那諸位請朋友我藉這個機會在請假電價問題之前先讓院長能夠說明一下"},{"start":22321.164,"end":22335.697,"text":"我們都相信台灣經濟的體質本質上是很好的只要全民繼續的努力大家一起團結那我們在高科技的發展以及我們對中小企業做更多的包容成長的社會投資跟國家的投資應該會穩定的發展"},{"start":22337.378,"end":22364.261,"text":"那麼過去有一些用特別預算來支應的國家重大建設因為它卻有其必要像前瞻基礎建設到底是讓整個地方在短時間內8年當中成就了相當多的這個地方的建設但是今年明年我們的預算第一個我們沒有編特別的預算我們只執行了前面特別預算的最後幾期的這個執行所以我們的預算的額度會稍微的擴大那這個也請大院能夠支持"},{"start":22364.801,"end":22386.829,"text":"那我們為了讓這個社會的正義能夠更普遍的去成長發展我們也對這個最低工資予以提升那麼對社會的包容成長我們做很多的貢獻我們預計本來預計到年底我們的CPI會穩定下降但是因為現在颱風又將來臨我們一定要在非常可控的範圍內"},{"start":22387.54,"end":22413.66,"text":"我們再謹慎的去評估是不是這個物價的波動不要超越我們原來的預計甚至做有效的控管我覺得這個才是穩定民生照顧民生最重要的好那院長關底的部分要不要臺電的報告做個回應謝謝委員在座的關心我們確實請臺電檢查了關底所有的電器用品當中確實發生一些比較老舊的電器用品包括冷氣在內"},{"start":22414.801,"end":22434.06,"text":"他確實是相當的耗電秘書處已經在這個時候把所有的老舊的冷氣都已經更換成新的那我們希望說有新的節能的電器用品再加上人為能夠更加的去節約用電未來官邸的用電我們會持續的關心"},{"start":22435.911,"end":22440.474,"text":"我們對電價有幾個原則一個是反應成本一個是照顧民生穩定物價跟節能減碳那只有他他一直往他的成本價來賣給國內的工業用戶"},{"start":22458.911,"end":22469.583,"text":"那它就會比較有健全的財務但是民生的部分我們會用更多的國家政策跟預算來做平穩的過程那這個部分臺電經濟部在這兩天跟電價審議委員會的討論當中都做了詳細的規劃那在青年度的話電價還會再漲價嗎"},{"start":22477.671,"end":22480.854,"text":"今年度明年的話 未來的話還是會持續的調整"},{"start":22501.82,"end":22523.536,"text":"未來的部分我們當然是看整體的這個狀況這個我想是院長做決定我們基於這個院長的指示那麼這一次名稱的部分然後小的這個生意小商圈甚至於工業也是一樣如果他是衰退的這個工業的話我們大概也不漲"},{"start":22525.554,"end":22530.056,"text":"本來是預定要調高14% 但是電價審議委員做出來的決定就是只漲12.5%總體來講大概有96%的用電戶沒有漲"},{"start":22545.509,"end":22572.37,"text":"那這一個漲價的意思我們還是不是完全可以到賺錢的狀態不過我還是需要大院委員能夠協助我們改善台電的財務情況那部長有讓你充分的說明那剛才你也提到了外的條長還是會在於院長怎麼指示"},{"start":22573.12,"end":22588.287,"text":"那最主要是 電價未來是不是不會再漲價 其實當然是民眾關心阿那包括這影響著這個包括相關的一個通膨或是大家一個民眾預期的心理"},{"start":22589.704,"end":22606.895,"text":"公務委員報告我們是在討論的過程當中我們會先討論出幾項我們認為重要的原則把它文字化之後在審議委員會開會的時候由台電跟經濟部去做一些原則性大家的討論而不是在對最後的結果做任何的指示"},{"start":22607.695,"end":22634.45,"text":"這一次我們的漲價影響的通膨只有0.03%所以跟這個委員報告這樣子的影響CPI其實是非常微弱的應該是不會影響這個物價的這個波動好那我就直接接著就教像剛才有提到的這是反英明聲也需要說這個但是事實上民眾的生活目前確實是苦哈哈"},{"start":22635.302,"end":22640.083,"text":"那台天的黑洞不僅是政策的問題還有包括內部的問題那我就直接"},{"start":22641.661,"end":22665.895,"text":"針對之前立委提報在臺電大林電廠使用造假的防爆設備那多年來放水包庇相關工程約80億同樣的場址那民進黨的立委也提報大林電廠赤字560億買的爛的設備那這些錢卻完全無法使用那部長那這一案的關注性要如何解釋那以及說這個案子後續會怎麼處理"},{"start":22667.539,"end":22685.52,"text":"報告委員 您剛才指教的大齡電廠的部分我們現在到目前為止所看到的資料是符合規範但是如果我們現在已經積極介入了調查如果查到的是有不法的行徑我們當然是依法辦理"},{"start":22686.124,"end":22706.835,"text":"那我想這個部分因為畢竟朝野的立委都有提到那到最後的結果也要讓社會大眾也一併也能夠知道畢竟國會改革的話當初目前在走向視線那很多的弊案是要查就必須一定得查我相信在中央政府也同樣持著一樣的立場"},{"start":22708.099,"end":22708.779,"text":"臺電目前虧損的金額是多少?"},{"start":22734.108,"end":22746.134,"text":"目前在台電2024年前7月合計今年7月以前累虧是529億那扣掉撥補的部分目前累虧原本是達到4348億那所以台電的虧損是持續在增加不斷的"},{"start":22749.551,"end":22778.12,"text":"那不同的發言方式每度的成本不同核電的話是1.1元天然氣是3.11元太陽光電是5元風電是7元那現在的台電在今年4月電價上漲11%之後平均電價為3.4518那但是購買天然氣光電跟風電其實都要賠錢的那剛才如部長所講就是中央政府近年來是連續編列的包括3000億在晶圓台電"},{"start":22779.81,"end":22803.088,"text":"那我們當然也肯定臺電的努力阿那2023、2024年編列的包括增資臺電1500億、1000億此外2023年曾經以特別預算補貼臺電500億那要接著請問一下部長到底一個合理的電價要達到損益兩平的話電價未來可能會朝向再漲到多少%"},{"start":22804.346,"end":22816.478,"text":"報告委員我想這個部分是這樣子就是說大家所關心的是核電的這個成本事實上以我們現在統計下來我們的這個機組大概影響的每度電是0.11"},{"start":22818.541,"end":22818.581,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":22840.674,"end":22843.076,"text":"臺電的虧損也有包括過去的一個政策相關的一個政策性的"},{"start":22859.9,"end":22882.12,"text":"補貼到時候導致台電不斷的虧損所以在講惡霧戰爭的部分我覺得這個是但是近兩年但是這個的虧損是從以前不斷的造成但是錯誤的政策有時候是更可怕那沒關係因為依照學者所推估台電必須要漲到4.83到5.17才能夠損一兩平但是這樣子的學者的推估"},{"start":22882.904,"end":22910.805,"text":"造成的是民眾的恐慌還有嚴重的通膨直接電價這樣子間接直接對於物價的影響至少就會在2.4%到3.6%的預測所以說這樣是國人無法承受那所以說目前來講這兩年有可能因為民生的一個苦民所苦那院長這邊也能夠在這兩年的話維持現在既有的電價而不會漲到5.17元嗎"},{"start":22914.048,"end":22937.612,"text":"我們現在是4.29所以這是調整之後那剛剛委員提到說臺電的補貼確實有過去對於學校醫院社福團體臺電都吸收了一些電費的這個負擔那以後要讓他財政健全就希望他回到目的世界主管機關去做編列讓臺電不用承受太多的這樣的一個補貼的政策"},{"start":22938.192,"end":22966.779,"text":"另外就是如果沒有國際因素重要的影響這個原物料他就會比較穩定台積的經營就比較可以在可預控的範圍當中希望他財務健全其實跟院長就是回應一下如果說補學校社福團體的補貼的話其實大家相對的話都沒有問題的但是如果說是過去對於太陽能的一些政策的補貼那這樣子也是一個大的黑洞那這一塊來講的話其實不能漏了不提"},{"start":22967.984,"end":22979.623,"text":"社福團體跟學校的話其實大家是沒有意見但是回歸民生那剛才說學者數據指出的這個5.17的部分這兩年是不是不會調整到這個漲幅"},{"start":22981.075,"end":23003.166,"text":"因為這個是民眾他們所關心的目前台電的發電的成本就不會這麼高那這一次電價審議委員會通過的新的計算方式之後工業大戶的購電成本就接近於台電的成本但是一般民生用電還是相差蠻大所以我們未來如果用"},{"start":23004.67,"end":23018.273,"text":"政府的補貼的政策就會是去彌補這個民生的部分對工業的用電我們希望它使用者附會對方通膨不僅是電費包括明年2026年碳費也即將上路"},{"start":23019.451,"end":23039.953,"text":"歐盟開了第一槍 包括2026年對進口的高碳排的產品進行課稅當然這也都會增加企業的一個生產成本還進而又轉嫁到消費者身上 那又是通膨上升那我國在113年3月公布了臺灣2050的碳排放路徑跟策略總說明"},{"start":23040.697,"end":23065.396,"text":"那之後包括在112年2月也公布了溫室氣體減量法修正為汽油因應變遷因應法那來做這個法制的基礎那本條就叫在目前的因應這個碳排也算是能夠抗通膨節能減碳的這個政策上中華民國我們目前中央政府建構了什麼樣的綠色金融機制或是推動措施請董事長"},{"start":23067.011,"end":23095.41,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們目前台灣已經進入碳定價的時代明年1月1號開始我們就會開始徵收碳費但是我們初期的碳費不會高目前是300塊到500塊那還有一個優惠費率所以基本上我們有算過這個300塊或500塊或是說優惠費率的話其實對於我們CPI影響比漲電價只有漲電價的十分之一左右所以影響不是很大但是如果這個企業因為他能夠少繳一點錢來提出自主減量計畫的話"},{"start":23096.431,"end":23103.393,"text":"目前來講在地方政府他們也積極的在推動包括在台北市跟高雄市都已經發行了永續發展的債券台北市政府為了改善捷運的環境還在113年1月10號發行了社會責任債券兩億元"},{"start":23125.04,"end":23140.668,"text":"後面分別有2年期3年期5年期那在高雄的部分他也在113年1月10號發行了2年的綠色債券20億元那請問一下院長那中央政府是不是也要推動永續發展的債券"},{"start":23142.021,"end":23161.978,"text":"這個都是在環境部的這個規劃當中第一個是我們現在在跟國發會爭取國發基金100億的綠色成長基金然後來協助這個產業來投資新的產業這個在進行當中希望明年可以過然後明年可以開始那另外一個是我們也動員了保險業的資金還有創投業的資金我們先從民間的資金產業的資金來帶動那目前來看的話這個的量"},{"start":23167.783,"end":23196.318,"text":"會比地方政府會大很多那當然啦我們也觀察很多的國家都有新的一些制度例如說像日本的氣候債券然後或是說美國的用減稅 IRA 的方式來處理那我們也都在討論當中那是永續發展債券的計畫中央政府的部分相關內容到時候我們在委員會再持續來討論那接著那要警教一下院長目前來講這國土計畫法那暫緩的部分其實現在你也知道"},{"start":23196.858,"end":23199.02,"text":"國土計畫法的上路問題 大家應該要冷靜的來考慮 而且要理性的來討論"},{"start":23216.692,"end":23234.446,"text":"我們知道現在還有9個縣市沒有送他的功能圖來這個是我們實現上最大的困難時間有限我大致上跟你說就是目前來講轉換國土計劃法的執法有23項那其中14項完成9項還沒完成完成比例大概60.878"},{"start":23236.167,"end":23260.814,"text":"那相關的法律52部 總計94條文 涉及內政部 農業部 經濟部13個部會那目前來講 國土計畫的功能分區圖 那其實也有許多縣市都有造成爭議所以說其實 大家要理性討論沒有錯 那可是目前來講造成許多縣市甚至不同政黨的立委 也同樣反映這個需要再延期"},{"start":23261.482,"end":23280.487,"text":"那想要救效一下院長是不是應該要先暫緩還暫緩兩年之後才能夠比較有力的來推動那如果在立法院通過法律的修正延後兩年的話行政院這邊是不是可以配合"},{"start":23281.758,"end":23299.304,"text":"在此之前我們還是極力的、積極的跟地方溝通希望這個功能圖能夠盡快的送來但是我是希望在溝通的過程當中要給廣大的農民朋友們一個正確的訊息而不要告訴他們說國土計畫法一旦實施,農民永是不得翻身這種訊息絕對不要再發生還有充足的時間"},{"start":23302.705,"end":23315.386,"text":"那如果立法院到時候 大家通過了暫緩兩年的話是不是也可以請 院長跟就是內政部這邊也能夠配合著來讓 農民有更多的時間瞭解正確的訊息"},{"start":23316.272,"end":23337.288,"text":"有這樣的修法過程我想農業部內政部都會積極的在協商過程中表達我們的意見但是尊重大家討論的結果但是我希望說國土計畫法是一個對全國國家土地充分支援有效利用的一個上位概念的法律能夠早一天實施當然是我們可以完整的保存國家土地的利用價值"},{"start":23337.895,"end":23338.035,"text":"主席"},{"start":23353.063,"end":23375.804,"text":"要充分的理解所以要充分的了解農業部對農民的照顧對農民的照顧是非常多非常廣的對那也需要一些時間所以說本席在這裡也帶南投這邊表達其實暫緩實施那如果修正法律修正通過之後還是希望行政院跟內政部都能夠配合那也就讓農民能夠有充分的時間"},{"start":23377.045,"end":23400.442,"text":"請簡短回答我們希望說能夠充分溝通然後充分討論那是不是要修法的話當然我們要跟大院的很多委員來探討但是如果你現在延緩兩年的時候那個爭議的議題還是在兩年以後我們還是需要再討論跟部長回覆一下現在連執法在中央單位都還沒有修正完成還有那麼多的單位需要溝通"},{"start":23400.922,"end":23414.176,"text":"我們的國土計畫法現在只剩下一項還沒有作為公告其他的部分是在預告當中快預告完成那許多的執法還在修正沒關係反正其實這個過程中也是告訴我們其實還是有很多需要準備的時間那"},{"start":23416.283,"end":23441.356,"text":"最後我要接著再跟那個院長這邊再提一下黃建斌委員之前所推動的這個觀光的方案那其實在剛才所提到的當然說爭取的這些建設跟這些補貼措施振興措施不分藍綠那是不是也讓院長來說明一下黃建斌委員包括在推動這個方案過去的努力而且以及予以肯定"},{"start":23442.301,"end":23442.761,"text":"好 謝謝游委員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":23472.816,"end":23497.133,"text":"下一位請蘇清泉委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請院長"},{"start":23500.409,"end":23505.755,"text":"來我們經濟部 農業部來 左院長請備詢 經濟部長 農業部長請備詢蘇委員好市長今天我們屏東高雄一天都休息了"},{"start":23519.906,"end":23524.753,"text":"我剛聽我們劉部長是應變中心的指揮官他對南部的狀況現在蠻憂心但是我們也在充分的準備當中"},{"start":23536.607,"end":23556.993,"text":"我再一次要肯定我們農業部陳部長上次在銷毀那個雞蛋我們在農業生物園區那邊楊瓊英還有張其凱我我們對他的勇敢面對任何一件事情而且是很有膽量的我再一次跟大家肯定陳部長加油這是現在現在的"},{"start":23566.334,"end":23592.299,"text":"施子湘 聶文春 可能也有獨自留住這個他的海拔是700公尺所以各位看到災情已經出來了還沒有登陸就已經災情出來了這個是我們屏東的家樂福全年東西燒光光燒到空空空經濟部這些物資的"},{"start":23593.158,"end":23594.059,"text":"我這裡要要求我們院長"},{"start":23618.497,"end":23631.486,"text":"因為現在要調這個大群抽水區必須是鄉鎮去跟縣府反映然後再跟水利分屬那我這裡要特別跟部長"},{"start":23632.602,"end":23634.383,"text":"那再來就是各位看到上次凱米颱風的補助齁"},{"start":23662.864,"end":23670.986,"text":"當我們一個天然災害品項公告以後那農民要在10天之內去跟公所申請如果他遇到有受到災損的時候他要去跟公所申請這是10天的一個意思"},{"start":23691.28,"end":23699.439,"text":"所以各縣市要切齊啦不要高雄就比較久 屏東 屏東的地方政府我覺得在做事情很差勁"},{"start":23700.802,"end":23726.08,"text":"所以這個要加強我跟委員報告因為不同的縣市它公告的時間點不一樣我們是從公告開始算那另外就是說在一天的部分我們也在新的辦法裡面去做一個彈性的處理因為當你量很多的時候工作也沒辦法同一時間接到那麼多人所以它的處理程序會變慢的時候我們就願意把這個時間把它做一點彈性的延長院長"},{"start":23729.011,"end":23729.151,"text":"拜訪委員："},{"start":23753.312,"end":23773.512,"text":"法定8.2億現在管政部存債3.2億所以我也要肯定一下我們像第七合作分署李分署長李中恩也很認真我叫去勘差到哪裡他就馬上馬上到然後馬上反映我覺得水利署的表現也很好好得好壞就壞啦我絕對不客氣啦"},{"start":23775.794,"end":23798.688,"text":"所以這個要寬裂經費尤其是大排尤其是抽水站像萬丹、雲南來、東港那些都要加強我會盯得很緊跟院長報告那這個是比較誇張這一張是高速高速這個橫的聯絡道路台21啊院長你看到沒有"},{"start":23799.687,"end":23821.785,"text":"那個橋墩這麼低,橋面這麼低,然後整個山洪下來,裡面還有擋土牆,到現在還沒有處理,那這次颱風又來了,整個水都濺了,高速箱,我要請水利署去看,那現在颱風,這個大颱風又來了,整個淹起來,所以高手剛好5個川,淹到2.9米,2.9米是多寬這樣,1.5多寬,"},{"start":23829.144,"end":23850.81,"text":"所以這個要如果是錯誤的設計要怎麼更改我下面的擋土牆要把它趕快清掉你有看那個廟啊那個廟的金螺你看土石流搞成這個樣子這個剛剛在高速就在新豐村跟各位報告所以都要很嚴謹的來看"},{"start":23854.089,"end":23866.359,"text":"平東縣的榮損是全台灣第4嚴重各位看到榮損是4億多那裡面的一個比較誇張的是漁業漁業的摘損才1600多萬陳部長這個為什麼那麼低就是因為我們漁業登記太少"},{"start":23878.447,"end":23887.014,"text":"四五千公頃、四五千港、邦、遼、全國公頃有養殖登記的30%本來不到30%37.2%37.2%一樣是民進黨施政的縣市啊臺南78%啊嘉義86%啊"},{"start":23901.36,"end":23917.93,"text":"我們屏東怎麼那麼糟糕?為什麼?我向委員報告齁我們全台灣的那個養殖面積大概4.1萬公頃然後整體的有水權的齁大概佔66%啦那相對的屏東才37.2比起全國的平均比較低"},{"start":23918.51,"end":23934.929,"text":"那有兩個問題一個問題就是說他的土地共用的問題第二個問題就是水款的問題我現在要處理的就是說我要把這個養殖的登記跟水款先做切離不然你如果拿不到水款你一輩子拿不到登記證"},{"start":23936.192,"end":23950.062,"text":"委員長你可能不知道部長在說的很詳細的就是說你若沒有預約登記證你若遭到災害你是沒辦法賠喔一線都沒辦法賠喔你知道市議要一個選項都六千萬一個兩千萬大家都遭到優惠證了"},{"start":23954.11,"end":23969.118,"text":"副部長 您黨內的國有卡就要跳牢啊報告委員 這是這樣啦 只是說你那些水管沒啊 你要買 賺到你就要感受而已啦但是我們當然是來幫助他 金來拿到水管 因為"},{"start":23970.158,"end":23989.242,"text":"因為補助這個問題 過去我們都沒有發言所以我們要他清醒一下 工業的土地啦 留青菜的土地啦那大館市都一樣啦 都比較特別了 水管 負流水都在那是要做還是不做啦 全部啦 要積極幫他們輔導啦這整個那20幾% 院長都看不下去啦"},{"start":23994.159,"end":23999.961,"text":"我們80年代剛才28%現在已經37.2%那我會先把水源做切割以後讓它有養殖業登記這樣的話天然災害進來的時候比較會有保障第二部分就是說我們跟經濟部水利署這邊就是說變成一個專區我們興建整個供水系統"},{"start":24016.225,"end":24017.346,"text":"做那個海水供應的那個幾乎是全海水的養殖"},{"start":24036.252,"end":24036.392,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":24056.738,"end":24071.248,"text":"因為我們屏東那裡地下水的問題,你現在水調到最高水平,就整個都崩壞了所以那邊要控制,真的跟委員,我相信你是來行的,你應該改善一下我們屏東的經營現在臨北市的浮流水,一天會害八角的九十多萬棟"},{"start":24077.392,"end":24077.552,"text":"給個數字吧"},{"start":24099.181,"end":24109.306,"text":"至少要幾年內要達到加基分齡有人這樣啦 這樣就對那些人學不完規 你知道嗎 餘苗放下去像丁堅海蜜颱風"},{"start":24110.922,"end":24139.034,"text":"委員的關心我們對水資源的善用乃至於對於生態環境的保護我們在這個原則底下積極來協助現在的養殖業者當然是我們的政策但是一定要中央地方能夠配合地方的維護土地資源的維護還是要列為重要的優先因素"},{"start":24141.089,"end":24141.349,"text":"我們會積極來看看"},{"start":24164.411,"end":24185.141,"text":"協助業者能夠在合法的水權底下進行他的這個產業我有開協調會我開協調會彭寮啦、加東啦、阿彬、農農兄弟都來了大家要湊個六條啦所以不一定在地人一定要做個好、關鍵積極來做好不好好啊,月數嘛,這裡說樂觀其成嘛好繼續齁來,現在講"},{"start":24193.508,"end":24212.618,"text":"這個昨天晚上,這是人家叫我問的吳淑長叫我弄弄屎我跟大家報告,我們警察是第二陸軍我們的海巡署是第二海軍警察條例35條大家關心一下"},{"start":24218.489,"end":24246.227,"text":"我們總統說他是山君的靠山我覺得非常的不捨,非常的痛惜在執法的過程當中因公殉職我想我們整個包括警政署內政部我們都要對他的後續的一些輔助工作要做到最完美給家屬一個最好的安慰重要的是造勢的這個行為人這種不法的行為我們應該要讓社會一個很清楚的交代"},{"start":24247.105,"end":24272.953,"text":"市長,警察條例35條,典型廢廢洋洋,我是提案,我是提案是,報告委員,這位造勢者是一個毒蟲,已經抓到了,然後第二個我們表達非常的痛心,然後第三個就是有關於警察因公殉職的部分,其實我們已經公告完成,會用這個最高的撫恤方式來進行他的殉職方面的撫恤作業"},{"start":24274.079,"end":24289.029,"text":"他們的退休能夠拉高一點警察平均壽命跟一般百姓差10歲部長你知不知道然後呢退休之後很快一年以來可能很多人出問題這個我們都有統計所以為什麼"},{"start":24292.819,"end":24320.76,"text":"日夜顛倒比我們醫護人員的值班還辛苦因為他是跳間斷式的所以每一個到50歲、58歲退休之後馬上就出問題所以這些警察是我們要呵護給他們尊嚴、給他們照顧、給他們當靠山比照軍人的退休又有什麼了不起嘛不然你看海外很多人我們平時把他們當成外星座、當作豆婆這樣弄一弄、弄一弄、拌薄下去"},{"start":24322.396,"end":24349.224,"text":"講不過去啦好不好部長我們一起來努力好 繼續你等一下再走接著是換你了 要換你的來我們高鐵到潮州這一個我這裡要跟院長 給你陳士凱肯定一下他剛上任沒有幾天就跑到六塊樹去了大家說他沒專業 但是我感覺他永遠認識"},{"start":24350.814,"end":24376.423,"text":"好像只有我在肯定他喔 部長 跟你簽訂謝謝委員 越多的委員越認識他啦講得很直接 非常好好 這個是高鐵的路 預定路線那我們那天決定就是六塊處的車站 優先施工嘛 對不對 部長是 院長你也知道這個事情吧就是說六鐵車這一台 因為它要到屏東1.4公里而已"},{"start":24379.363,"end":24402.723,"text":"那邊的那個海拔那天有跟部長報告齁才7公尺而已所以一定要加凍高提防還有那個地方是科學元氣已經在在廠商已經兩家動工了齁所以那個地方先做我們把案子擺戰場但是我們的目標是要到潮州齁那方案一方案二方案三"},{"start":24403.951,"end":24425.823,"text":"那天我也說,莊家斌委員也有問題他也是說,我們走高雄市這段可能會比較好,我沒有意見,但是倒著倒退路又曬出來,那有點違反原則,against principle那高雄這走,我剛才講的,高雄那一條路,我告訴你,高雄古池窟"},{"start":24430.996,"end":24437.478,"text":"這個選舉的公告若無成立﹖那架車頭高得這麼大﹖非常大﹖選舉的公告絕對沒問題﹖那個地方若國體沒經過﹖我會說國用手鼓一鼓敲起﹖"},{"start":24448.354,"end":24449.015,"text":"我強烈建議所以年底要訂案"},{"start":24465.462,"end":24488.998,"text":"還是建議那第二個我們的目標是要到炒作那部長也說那條軌道就把它通了出來準備隨時要接下去我對你是不是這樣講報告委員那個叫做留為軌就是留下未來延伸的可能性那目前延伸屏東的方案已經在綜合規劃當中那像委員剛剛所說的"},{"start":24489.458,"end":24505.008,"text":"有兩個方案目前我們正在思考也正在討論那最後目前是討論到六塊錯那我知道地方上還有一些大家的聲音希望再更長一點那我們就用留為軌的方式留為軌就會留下未來延伸的可能性"},{"start":24508.951,"end":24510.972,"text":"這個是比較嚴肅的問題肯定化這也到高層部跟我們內建部也關聯肯定化這幾個月"},{"start":24538.496,"end":24563.683,"text":"議長你聽過沒有這句話是難聽話這句話是鄙視跟看不起的話我們如果說柚和夜市肯定話就表示說他的東西不會很貴不會花每天都迷茫茫柚和夜市肯定話治理夜市肯定話這句話是難聽話"},{"start":24566.363,"end":24593.899,"text":"這咱坤町我們的恆春半島已經被無名化了所以我這裡要跟院長報告一下墾丁今天為什麼會死得那麼慘恆春半島為什麼會死得那麼慘三個原因第一個是交通的問題第二個是地價的問題第三是生意人心態墾丁國家公園實質我一個一個跟你報告"},{"start":24595.765,"end":24624.294,"text":"下一張這個在2018年 人家就在消遣的位2018年就這樣講我們地方政府也沒有什麼作為下一張我們 院長你如果去到夏威夷你剛才我去到海灘邊海邊開車那裡漂亮 你主人就慢慢開 慢慢心想"},{"start":24625.629,"end":24652.73,"text":"我們民眾,你看,來,下一張這人,在車上,背的都光碟板,不拿8公頃現在去高速車行動去不來這整座都不夠高速車,要慢慢開、慢慢行動所以我們施政院長去歐的市場、去中的市場,我看是不好的我在地人,可以這樣跟你說"},{"start":24655.56,"end":24663.783,"text":"下一張五張的問題你覺得這樣會卸上機有幾機?測數照相17機紅窗紅燈4機區間測數兩大組全部抓到鬆來來的一流181年、182年、183年"},{"start":24684.42,"end":24711.202,"text":"你不用跟我說墾丁有多少人去玩,我看這個數字我就知道早前交通罰單7千萬、8千萬,我們屏東縣政府可以分75%今年一月到八月就這樣了,這樣是什麼?沒有人去啦你如果去墾丁玩一趟回來,放2張、3張罰單是很普通的事情如果是你,你開車去玩一趟回來2、3張罰單,你還會再去嗎?"},{"start":24715.148,"end":24724.873,"text":"叫就叫死了所以坤町的目錄斷來式的下墜不是沒理由的所以大家要看要怎樣來救如果沒有我看是沒辦法的我們民東關我們台北新北市一年變交通違規的滑單400多萬人口變10億我們民東關79萬人口變5億而且收到6億多超收啦"},{"start":24744.744,"end":24750.609,"text":"請問一下這個是合理嗎所以觀光客不來我們地方政府要負點責任吧再來地價 這個跟我們內政部應該有關係"},{"start":24769.898,"end":24779.801,"text":"坤町大街 坤町大街 七十幾公里 六百公尺一坪土地 一百七十六萬 怕死啦 咱大池喔 大池 它一百三十幾萬 這裡一百七十六萬一間老廚 那間 都八千萬 七千萬 七條請問"},{"start":24797.489,"end":24798.57,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":24820.011,"end":24820.732,"text":"我們業者本身不自愛"},{"start":24846.957,"end":24873.031,"text":"把遊客當作一次性的肥羊,這樣就把它毒,上當會中所以國家公園管理署,劉部長這要怎麼解決?我們這個部分其實在8月以後已經有開始開發,然後也跟業者要求要自律同時我們現在跟屏東縣政府,包括地方的縣之公所還有民代的服務處一起來協調"},{"start":24874.113,"end":24903.545,"text":"看未來怎麼樣包括處理洋傘的部分還有那個機具還有車輛的部分然後盡量減少這個亂象不要讓景觀上面覺得看起來好像到這個地方去那麼漂亮的沙灘全部都在看洋傘那這個部分是一個非常糟糕的一個景象那因為多次有網紅來反映所以事實上我們到現在為止的已經開立了73張的勸導單那業者他們也願意按照我們所訂定的新的方式來重新來招租有關洋傘的租用的辦法"},{"start":24904.875,"end":24931.458,"text":"交通部門在判測限數一顆五十一顆六十一顆七十我看只有小的會這樣遵守而已所以料好不是說這樣每次後備你這樣就好事了沒有啦沒有這就事了院長地價的問題你還不能放任何地價一片公告地價五十幾萬公告限值九十萬"},{"start":24933.25,"end":24934.531,"text":"第1個國家公園 第1個"},{"start":24952.244,"end":24952.784,"text":"哇靠啦 去買的東西在炒的"},{"start":24973.109,"end":24980.094,"text":"鄭春彬的一棟房子一千二萬、一千三萬現在漲價了以前不到一千萬那一間房子、一棟房子要五千、六千、七千、八千萬這真是笑話嘛這沒有那種條件"},{"start":25001.65,"end":25015.524,"text":"那最後這裡還有五里亭機場 院長你覺得聽過以前興春的五里亭機場一天一禮拜還有三十多磅飛機 現在一磅就沒有所以這你要考慮 考慮看要怎麼恢復這為松山飛到五里亭機場 下一張"},{"start":25031.79,"end":25048.762,"text":"這個再來是我們屏南快速道路你已經 院長你也有替他宣誓還要開始路廊也決定我建議在高架高速路的下面做單車單車道這68公里來來走他能站到對 笑到對 吃到對這樣也可以振興那是另外一個族群"},{"start":25057.199,"end":25082.899,"text":"那這個是一個好的事情,院長可不可以唸一下,這個下面用單車,這個有很多地方在做,部長可以嗎?我來研究好,那兩位請回,我們請邱部長,衛福部衛福部,邱部長這年算三千年了,院長辛苦了"},{"start":25084.997,"end":25110.597,"text":"今天早上有聽到幾位委員在質詢講了很多我們健保的事情那我跟邱部長有很多對話那我跟他講一回休啦我對著和尚念經是沒有用的因為他比我還會念所以我今天要對你對院長你我們的醫療有沒有機會有沒有希望我叫我看你"},{"start":25113.018,"end":25125.149,"text":"我剛說過去30年健保保障國人現在我們要回頭保障健保所以一定要有救而且一定要救得起來那目前我覺得體質還是在我們大家能夠接受的範圍內院長我告訴你我們第1屆主決議那一張有嗎?院主決議說"},{"start":25136.186,"end":25137.427,"text":"現在現在目前的電池存多少?"},{"start":25165.455,"end":25192.448,"text":"零點八二零點八二要站到我出的橋啦我要向院長報告就像你的基金裡面顧兩百個給我來報現在健保署怎麼操作你知道嗎他就說 譬如說三招第一招就是斷頭我要給你一億結果你做一億二那你的兩千萬就自己斷頭"},{"start":25194.351,"end":25216.624,"text":"斷頭之後他就給你抽案子來嚴審審完之後還不夠呢答不到邱太陽說的要0.95呢阿伯又再叫你共同分攤扣除叫做攤扣跟營港的攤扣不一樣這樣又叫你扣攤扣有7億、有8億、有10億把他拉到電子0.92、0.93很好看的如果要用這樣來抬"},{"start":25224.196,"end":25243.144,"text":"1.0也沒問題1.1塊錢也沒問題所以現在都假象所以再來就造成什麼造成智慧的醫療院所巧立名目然後智慧的越來越高我敢講醫療院所巧立名目這是很大的挑戰喔但是不這樣他活不了"},{"start":25244.397,"end":25273.16,"text":"那與其要這樣不如事實寫出來健保署很聰明你要什麼他就給你什麼你要0.95他就可以殺到0.95嚴審斷頭這動同攤口所以今年已經不行了健保基金裡面拿一些出來補今年現在的點子不然的話到年底都出問題了部長是不是這樣"},{"start":25276.525,"end":25285.169,"text":"因為電池當然是有比較多政府其實都很想辦法來改善這個環境應該有的權益所以尤其現在的行政院無論是今年還是未來都盡量用盡了"},{"start":25300.598,"end":25301.358,"text":"好,謝謝蘇委員謝謝卓院長"},{"start":25328.038,"end":25351.798,"text":"下一位我們請林淑芬委員質詢副院長各位大家午安是不是請我們卓院長卓院長請備請"},{"start":25363.7,"end":25387.057,"text":"林委員好院長最近醫療糾紛的案子大概都沒有辦法進行因為刑事訴訟法在去年年底修正了第208條就是說法院或檢察官得主託醫院等機關團體鑑定或審查他人的鑑定而且要具名"},{"start":25387.978,"end":25403.012,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":25403.172,"end":25422.337,"text":"因為醫審會有編列預算所以免費雖然其實訴訟法第208條說你還可以委託其他的機關醫院等等可以去鑑定但是大家都還是委託醫審會居多那現在最嚴重的事情發生了因為呢這個"},{"start":25424.537,"end":25440.425,"text":"一省會把來自於檢察機關或司法機關的這些醫療糾紛事故的鑑定大概有300件你知道嗎已經退回這個地檢署有50件代退的有250件"},{"start":25442.466,"end":25456.657,"text":"我們要講這個是說在這種過程從去年年底修法到現在從實施到現在將近半年了有300件的案件進度是停滯的沒有辦法繼續審理的"},{"start":25458.078,"end":25463.745,"text":"而且受到一審會的案件是被退回的沒有退的也即將要被退那整個這個訴訟醫療糾紛的原告或被告整個訴訟的審理程序簡直是無法進行這個對"},{"start":25474.617,"end":25491.375,"text":"所有的這一些相關的權益影響甚大那這個事情滋事體大不曉得是該怎麼解決而你們今天在這個衛福部衛福部的醫事司有講說他們要把案件全部還給地檢署"},{"start":25492.916,"end":25515.045,"text":"那第1檢署請自行去尋找願意合作的醫學中心﹚醫師或專科醫學會自己去鑑定我們知道送到醫生會免費﹚送到這個醫院或者是醫學中心去鑑定是要錢的但是重點也不是在錢的問題而已是現在要具名﹚要具名"},{"start":25515.845,"end":25538.638,"text":"那衛福部的概念是說要請行政院跟司法機關去溝通轉達醫審會他有為難之處希望規定鑑定人員必須具名這個可以秉除醫師讓醫師安心可是呢我們去看了一下這個整個修法的過程"},{"start":25539.739,"end":25564.866,"text":"修法的過程裡面當初司法院跟我們的法務部提出這個《刑事訴訟法》第208條的修正其實所指的理由是說即便是機關鑑定也是機關內部的自然人實施鑑定或審查以後再用機關的名義出具書面報告"},{"start":25565.746,"end":25593.093,"text":"所以機關實施鑑定之自然人應該要準用相關規定除了書面報告以外當然要具名以事負責並立作為判斷其是否具備鑑定事格的依據及擔保鑑定或審查程序的專業性及公正性所以意思是說機關實施鑑定仍然由自然人為之"},{"start":25595.074,"end":25615.39,"text":"那大家都講說 這個醫生怕訴訟啊 怕跑法院啊醫生還要上法院 這樣子一語帶過我是覺得啊 欸 司法機關講的有道理可是醫師 大家就一概的以醫師怕上法院為由來說這個衛福部醫生會來這裡的人沒擔當"},{"start":25618.092,"end":25627.873,"text":"事實上也不是啊你去叫教學中心去叫便衣來鑑定看要不要鑑定我相信很多為難之處但有一點我就覺得"},{"start":25629.558,"end":25651.489,"text":"聽起來合理但人性上不見得可行我現在比較想問大家就是說到底具名的才容易造假還是不具名的才比較容易造假院長部長你們覺得呢?鑑定報告是要具名起來比較不會造假還是具名起來比較會造假"},{"start":25653.498,"end":25681.379,"text":"當時是一個修法的過程 鑑定是司法院是希望是以具名的方式負責 但是因為我也知道這個因為對我們以送件違件的一個單位來講有沒有具名其實跟整個鑑定的一個結果跟效力是沒有影響的但是最大的一個困難就是如果說這個鑑定的結果有結問的必要的時候要到法庭去接受交互結問"},{"start":25682.219,"end":25705.949,"text":"那我想這個會造成 鑑定的單位的一個心理上的負擔部長 剛剛我已經講了 你們修法的時候講的是事實上 巨民啊 要擔保他的事格 而且要擔保他的專業和公正事實上這一點也是問題喔 並不是你講說 如果有糾紛要上法院而已我現在要講這個是因為 站在衛福部的立場 衛福部"},{"start":25707.009,"end":25731.08,"text":"部長你也講一下,為什麼議審會的人會拒絕審這個依舊的案件為什麼三百件你看相關的權益這半年來這三百件、三百個當事人他的權益都沒有任何保障整個訴訟卡在那裡然後都沒有人出來解決,一定沒有人出來解決"},{"start":25732.4,"end":25753.281,"text":"衛福部退回去﹚然後法務部沒有辦法審理﹚司法機關也看說你自己沒辦法起訴﹚沒辦法審理﹚跟他沒關係整個修法造成了整個當事人權益這麼的不保怎麼大家都沒有人願意主動出來解決問題"},{"start":25755.014,"end":25782.054,"text":"我覺得百思不得其解 啊當事人都放在那 放在那現在就要立委來質詢 看你要不要去解決 是這樣嗎部長 衛福部部長 有什麼困難 講一下是的 報告委員本部已經因為這樣的原因 所以已經邀請司法院召開說明會也轉資司法院問答集 給那個醫審會的委員 專家及鑑定醫師"},{"start":25782.964,"end":25800.733,"text":"但是大部分的委員：專家及鑑定醫師表示：不願意再參與醫事鑑定所以沒有人要來鑑定理由是什麼：他們擔心的是什麼為什麼修了一個法結果造成沒有任何醫事人員：專業的人員願意來接受這個鑑定的這個任務呢那本部在7月幾天這樣可以停擺嗎當事人權益怎麼辦"},{"start":25812.964,"end":25833.712,"text":"我們本來想要修訂這個醫療法的施行細則那個增訂這個醫療鑒定相關資料應以保密不以公開的規定但是那個請教專家以後表示說這個病你所說的跟司法機關跟法務部他們認為的剛好是背道而馳的"},{"start":25834.412,"end":25852.323,"text":"要具名才能具備這個才能夠這個我剛剛念過的齁讓他的鑑定的事格有依據他的專業性和公正性而且保證不造假我剛才跟你問的是要具名才能造假還是不具名才能造假"},{"start":25853.55,"end":25854.09,"text":"這個問題是鑑定之後具名"},{"start":25882.971,"end":25904.087,"text":"會怕產生之後 產生一些一一式糾紛之後的機械糾紛所以設定這樣子那照委員剛剛所說的這樣的這個可信度是不是會被接受會不會那他的效率問題那雖然我們有提議說建議啦說這個建定不需要具名跟具節那麼這個規定"},{"start":25906.178,"end":25930.171,"text":"現在法律就明文規定要具名啦當初修法為什麼院和院之間沒有能夠好好的溝通這樣子硬修下去可行性執行上有沒有困難整個行政部門跟司法部門為什麼大家都沒有溝通然後就一意孤行就通過然後現在造成所有當事人權益受損呢"},{"start":25930.851,"end":25957.21,"text":"而當事人權益受損了以後呢 院跟院之間 到現在 到目前都沒有任何溝通各位委員幫我們今天看到這樣的狀況 因為刑事訴訟法的主要的這個推修法的機關是司法院 那我們會透過院跟院之間或是刑法當初就沒有了 雖然是刑事訴訟法主管機關是司法院 但是我們今天在講"},{"start":25958.391,"end":25974.528,"text":"對這跟你們有關 跟行政部門有關的一審會依須鑑定所有的責任怎麼會跟你們行政部門沒有關係 都有關係而一審會的重點來了 你們去看一審會的設置要點不要忘了一審會是"},{"start":25976.07,"end":25998.169,"text":"可以召集一式鑑定小組得一鑑定案件性質分組召開會議所以看起來從這個設置要點來看一式鑑定小組是要一個小組的而且到時候的決議是要共識決的需要小組委員過半數的出席"},{"start":25999.369,"end":26024.298,"text":"決議事項需有出席委員﹚過半數的同意﹚可否同訴時﹚由主席裁決﹚所以一個共識決﹚不是一個人的﹚在這裡共識決﹚你叫一個醫生去具名﹚到底要叫出審的﹚出判的﹚還是要叫主席去具名﹚誰要擔負這個責任﹚不清不楚"},{"start":26026.912,"end":26030.384,"text":"制度面有沒有問題 有阿執行面有沒有問題 有阿"},{"start":26033.646,"end":26058.767,"text":"可是現在就擺爛在那裡的你說這全部都司法院可是沒有我們看這個新聞高檢署有表示高檢署說因應刑事訴訟鑑定相關規定修正正收集實務運作問題因應必要時將協調相關機關解決所以高檢署有這個理念嗎 有啊這已經擺爛了半年了"},{"start":26059.888,"end":26065.71,"text":"當事人的權益 你看我來一個醫療糾紛 今天因為沒辦法感應沒人要出來感應 沒機關去感應臨醫審會 公務部門 行政部門的公立的醫審會的這個機制都停擺還退件了 退件了300件 50件被退回去250件即將要被退回去"},{"start":26088.625,"end":26108.986,"text":"這個真的這樣擺爛下去是不行的啦跟委員報告,我想我們不會給他擺爛,我們是希望我們再來協調議審會已經再來做,因為這是執行面的問題法律都這樣子規定了,議審會是共識決,要叫到一個移民我想我們再來做一個協調"},{"start":26110.367,"end":26138.849,"text":"這本的問題重重欸這個行事訴訟法新的方式 制度實施之後衛部在7月是有訂定一個施行細則啦那這細則之內他們是希望說這個資料因為保密不予公開這個鑑定的資料但是在內部討論的時候我們的其他的政委還是有一些討論的不同的想法那我覺得我們可以現在再來內部的討論一下如果有需要再跟司法院做溝通但是院長"},{"start":26140.41,"end":26146.035,"text":"現在他們的做法直接退回去 退回去地檢署 退回去地檢署可是法律已經修成這樣子了 這麼剛性的法律 你能夠自行去彈性調整嗎"},{"start":26165.133,"end":26170.506,"text":"衛福部部長你來講講看如果法律沒有修正最可能最可行的方式怎麼解決"},{"start":26173.604,"end":26174.984,"text":"法務部部長你告訴我最可行的方式是什麼"},{"start":26196.292,"end":26212.398,"text":"當然法律的話我們要依法來行政當然我們希望說我們個案委託那個醫事鑑定委會來鑑定我們希望來做一個鑑定那既然是醫事鑑定委員會的委員認為這部分有自愛難行的部分我們再來瞭解"},{"start":26213.378,"end":26214.699,"text":"為什麼其他人也沒有在鑑定?為什麼?"},{"start":26236.82,"end":26237.08,"text":"會不會有一個進展的可能"},{"start":26249.321,"end":26250.061,"text":"謝謝林委員謝謝卓院長"},{"start":26279.008,"end":26282.958,"text":"我們報告院會休息10分鐘 休息之後繼續進行質詢 現在休息"},{"start":26957.072,"end":26976.003,"text":"發言委員現在繼續開會請廖偉祥委員質詢主席有請卓榮泰院長及國防部顧立雄部長請卓院長備詢還有顧部長備詢廖委員好"},{"start":26987.1,"end":27005.815,"text":"院長部長好今天我準備兩個禮物要請我們顧立雄部長收下第一個我們台灣是藍花大國那最近南部的鄉親種出了新品種的藍花非常的美叫做賴清德蘭但由於剛出品我還買不到所以我就先買了一盆藍花代替"},{"start":27006.442,"end":27006.482,"text":"在哪裡來"},{"start":27039.957,"end":27039.977,"text":"會議結束"},{"start":27086.415,"end":27113.068,"text":"院長部長我想要請問一下川普有說臺灣的國防預算應該要佔GDP的10%請教一下院長萬一我們的川普當選了你們會配合他嗎我們的國防預算是依照我們國家的需要就保衛國家安全那麼我們會來就這個需要的方面來編列我們相關的預算絕不是要"},{"start":27113.632,"end":27139.365,"text":"一副或者是去滿足哪一個數字這個對我們來講毫無意義那萬一他當選要求台灣要做到我們會有辦法嗎還是會說我們做不到台灣身為世界民主夥伴國家友好的朋友之一我們當然有責任要防衛自己的安全台海來自於印太的安全那我們會負起這個責任但這個是在我們從我們本位做出發的基本的國防要求好 那院長我們是不是就不會聽他的"},{"start":27143.376,"end":27164.66,"text":"我會因為他講一句話就要做這件事我們聽我們的以及聽我們的三軍統帥跟國防部的規劃三軍統帥好我們明年國防預算已經上看6740億已經佔GDP的2.45%所以現在川普的說法要求我們到10%的話等於是國防預算要達到兩兆7所以我在這裡還有包含剛剛送這些東西就是也要呼籲我們賴清德總統"},{"start":27167.501,"end":27186.842,"text":"大國以仁小國以治希望我們的賴總統我們的三軍統帥可以有智慧的帶領我們中華民國和平穩定的發展千萬不要變成輕德斯基委員放心這個不僅是國策也是總統率領國家的重要方向好謝謝我們的顧部長可以回座了"},{"start":27188.817,"end":27210.695,"text":"主委院長賴清德總統上任前宣誓要做100萬戶的社會住宅其中50萬戶是租金補貼25萬戶是社會住宅25萬戶是包租代管的三大方向先談租金補貼的部分我想請教院長目前內政部使用了不涉及、不追稅、不查稅的方式現在總共核准了將近66萬戶"},{"start":27212.436,"end":27227.503,"text":"今年補助補貼的金額也超過了265億所以我是想要問一下院長你們現在這樣子的是不是代表你們要跟國人報告你們百萬戶的社會住宅政策賴清德上任半年就已經達成了66萬戶對嗎"},{"start":27230.043,"end":27232.764,"text":"所以意思就是說賴慶哲上任半年已經達成超過50萬戶的社會住宅是這樣的意思嘛對不對"},{"start":27245.1,"end":27264.416,"text":"在百萬戶這個家庭輔助計畫裡面的三支鍵 第三支鍵確實是已經達到所以意思就是說你們已經達標 而且還超標了 66萬戶 不過我想要請先看看我們院長 看看國土署當初發布的新聞稿 300億的這個中央擴大租金補貼專案 你們國土署的新聞稿怎麼寫的"},{"start":27265.418,"end":27278.497,"text":"當初這個300億的中央擴大補貼的方案就是說希望掌握市場上大量有效的租約資訊將透過定期統計公開達成租屋市場透明化那我想請問你們目前有掌握租屋黑市的狀況嗎"},{"start":27279.817,"end":27302.655,"text":"報告委員我想這個部分大概也是相對很多委員希望知道的不管是租金補貼或是包租貸款所以是沒有對不對有我們有我們透過我們的地政資料現在慢慢的把就是去識別化的狀態之下都把它那個按照所以現在是沒有嗎因為我我發文問過你們你們回我說沒有按照地區有公布出來相關的這個租金補貼的這個狀況但是它是一個區塊的方式而不是一個一個"},{"start":27303.416,"end":27303.556,"text":"租賃查詢實價登錄10.5萬戶"},{"start":27319.139,"end":27343.961,"text":"那您補助的戶數跟剛剛就是說66萬戶相差了將近55萬戶這就是我們現在台灣租屋黑市的現況請問院長你對於這樣成績滿意嗎委員你的說法的基準不太一樣我剛剛跟您報告了就是說現在呢領取租金補貼的總共有60幾萬戶這些部分在我們地政司裡面都有相關的資料但是我們把它去識別化以後按照地區呢已經把它公布而且放在我們官網上面"},{"start":27344.824,"end":27366.608,"text":"你是說像這個中央剛剛我說的我們放在我們內政部的官網裡面那為什麼我去聞的時候你跟我說沒有不是你們的業務要不要看一下我們的那個公文租屋黑樹研究及統計非本屬業管統計全責無資料提供你剛剛還說有下面這就是你們回我的公文阿"},{"start":27368.562,"end":27388.038,"text":"您現在講的這個租屋的這個黑數的部分是大概就是說第一個他不是找這個官方的包租代管或是經過我們土地租金跟那個官方申請的部分沒關係所以你說你66萬戶都有掌握是這樣嗎?是的因為他們有申請租金補貼的話我們就知道他到底是誰你都知道每個位置在哪裡然後這個屋主是誰那為什麼沒有實價登錄上去?"},{"start":27390.926,"end":27400.916,"text":"實價登錄沒有我剛跟委員報告的部分他是一個區塊的方式區塊的方式那我給你看實價登錄只有在我們買賣的這個房產的房地產上面才會有租屋的實價登錄"},{"start":27403.14,"end":27431.781,"text":"我剛有說內政部有租屋的租金的部分好現在我跟你說你剛說區塊的部分我給你看現在內政部公開透明的方式就是一個區一個中位數院長請你看一個區一個中位數也沒有不知道有沒有電梯不知道房屋種類不知道屋齡連幾坪都不知道只有把25分位50分位75分位公布出來光看這資料我可不可以說臺北市的房租比新北市還要便宜這樣合理嗎所以我要講的事情就是"},{"start":27432.898,"end":27455.122,"text":"你再變也沒用連立法院的預算中心都已經明確指出我國多數的租屋案件未納入實價登錄對眾多租屋人口權益保障朋友欠完備推動租屋市場價格透明化容待精進我想容待精進這四個字這幾個字都講得很客氣了所以院長這樣擴大租金補貼的專案從2022年到2025年預估多少"},{"start":27460.135,"end":27482.5,"text":"剛剛這個部長在跟委員報告的過程就是說112年有效租約的案件大概75%我們都有掌握他的資訊那麼在這個租金透明化的過程當中是集中在大學周邊以及每個行政區我們做這樣的先大規模大街廓的大區域的這樣的公布請問2022到2025預估要補貼發出多少錢"},{"start":27486.014,"end":27491.762,"text":"按照我們現在在114年要求這個行政院補助的部分的話大概是有200億左右"},{"start":27493.307,"end":27513.923,"text":"為什麼這邊的數字大概是200億應該是今年吧對不對我現在說的是114年的部分對所以我說2022到2025預估總共要多少2022開始到現在為止這個比較少一點大概也是大概也是大概804億沒有那是加總的部分對就是加總我剛剛就是說加總對我就是說加總我說2022到2025"},{"start":27519.688,"end":27523.201,"text":"國家駐都中心興建4年的社宅加總工程費用多少?"},{"start":27524.865,"end":27548.46,"text":"大概872億我們可以看到租金補貼的政策的經費將近已經逼近我們新建社宅的經費況且全世界也沒有人會把租金補貼當成社宅的認定報告委員租金補貼的部分在住宅法裡面確實有名列進去所以我們認為租金補貼也算是住宅法規執行的一部分我剛剛已經說50萬戶也算進去我只是把這個全世界沒有人這樣講的把它補進去而已"},{"start":27551.002,"end":27566.43,"text":"所以連省紀部111年的決算報告都曾經指出問題直接寫租賃市場產生租屋黑市或地下化的問題所以導致中央地方機關雖然積極推動租金補貼等協助措施卻無法確實發揮效益"},{"start":27568.271,"end":27593.106,"text":"也就是說現在黑市不解決補助就沒有辦法實質發揮效益甚至還發生易領的狀況有發生易領一億多那請問賴清德居住正義補貼50萬戶是為了湊數字還是要促進租屋市場透明院長我要講的是新清安政策也是狂撒幣但是撒下去之後就出問題了院長我也很擔憂你的租金補貼政策會不會跟新清安一樣"},{"start":27594.076,"end":27602.351,"text":"為了要達到居住正義的目的但是反而手段不正義欠缺通盤規劃導致我們國家的住宅政策一團混亂"},{"start":27603.732,"end":27630.74,"text":"我這個是百萬出家庭支持計畫方案的一部分當然我們設定他是50萬戶那現在因為市場反映大家需求現在到60幾萬戶這三個方向我都很清楚我繼續問未來我們也希望他不要在毫無限制的一直往上增加我們重點還是要放在直接興建跟包租貸款謝謝你要直接興建跟包租貸款好我們現在講興建設宅的部分請教院長賴清德總統說要蓋25萬戶設宅"},{"start":27632.981,"end":27662.086,"text":"那目前由中央興建完工並且已經可以招租的才總共4767戶喔3萬多戶欸這是完工已經可以供招租的喔這是你們網路上的數字喔沒有3萬多戶現在你說3萬多戶可以出租了是不是已經出出去了嗎已經有的像林口的話幾乎都是滿租的狀況欸你3萬多是包括地方政府喔我現在講的是中央政府興建且完工的喔你要講清楚喔你要看一下數字嗎是好你們興建且完工的"},{"start":27662.998,"end":27686.067,"text":"而且可以招租的扣掉林口選手村的話其實也才1800多戶那你現在說的其他的中央有在興建中的沒錯可是我講是完工的並且已經可以供招租的蔡英文8年加上賴清德半年總共不到2000戶的成績我想人民要怎麼相信你8年內能蓋完25萬戶所以我想問一下現在住都中心接下來要蓋多少戶"},{"start":27687.217,"end":27709.247,"text":"報告委員我們希望說中央跟地方一起努力然後到2032年之前可以完成25萬戶所以你的25萬戶不是只有中央興建是包含要把地方的都納進來了因為我們當時在協調地方的時候我們中央的國土署也有協助那我也想問你我也查了你們的資料截至今年5月你們盤點的總計219處的土地那總共只有7萬1千多戶你們盤點的土地只有7萬多戶剩下18萬戶要蓋在哪"},{"start":27714.707,"end":27736.13,"text":"是要填海造海造陸嗎還是你現在夠了嗎盤地方的你這些土地有夠嗎是跟委員報告我們現在當然是在盤點土地當中而且希望能夠有多元的管道而且我們希望說透過每個縣市地方政府的都市計畫在未來做區段徵收的時候會釋放出3%到5%的土地供我們興建住宅社會住宅"},{"start":27736.57,"end":27759.303,"text":"好我在這裡要提醒你如果沒有規劃的話我想你們的社會住宅的政策也會跟你們的租金補貼政策一樣目前為止我們在中央的興建速度是還算可以但是地方已經都沒有那麼快了沒問題部長這個院長你的部長非常有信心所以我這裡也準備了一個承諾支票我想你願不願意簽下這張承諾支票宣誓賴清德總統一定會達到這個25萬戶的決心"},{"start":27761.394,"end":27762.677,"text":"我這裡寫了25萬戶就是依照你們的50萬、25萬、25萬"},{"start":27769.793,"end":27796.335,"text":"可以嗎?你們可以簽嗎?院長我們在113年底希望能夠達到20萬戶 那就現在為止這個 院長你願不願意簽這個承諾的資料 通過宿宅以及社宅有18萬戶我覺得政府的政策是用在我們的施政報告跟預算書上面來呈現的而不是用一種簽名的方式 是在過去到現在都是這樣在進行所以換言之就是 院長你沒辦法保證你可以 你會達標你可能會跳票的意思"},{"start":27797.045,"end":27808.497,"text":"那張是那個簽名對我們政策的推動沒有任何的特別意義原來我們的院長完全不敢為賴清德的承諾背書啊所謂一百萬戶的社宅海上海然後二十萬戶都被蓋成你這樣的時間的說法我覺得這樣會變口號之國"},{"start":27814.303,"end":27838.665,"text":"對總統的政見在全力的推動這是我們對政策的負責好 院長我在這裡就是要代表關心居住正義的年輕人想要問你願不願意簽這個承諾所以你現在是不願意簽 對不對我們在政策上已經講得很清楚我們往這個方向一直在努力好 所以你就是不願意簽 沒問題我想這真的令人非常的遺憾你們民進黨的政府在居住正義上面負了年輕人"},{"start":27839.693,"end":27851.102,"text":"委員如果你真的關心租金補貼的部分的話其實我們過去兩年租金補貼在青年上面滿意度是70%以上我沒有說你租金補貼怎麼樣我是說你的政策目標沒有達成"},{"start":27852.062,"end":27867.977,"text":"租金補貼拿到錢大家當然都很快樂阿但是你的黑市問題沒解決阿所以你一直在努力進行當中院長最後我聊聊居住正義三件喔你們剛剛的三件我都清楚所以你一直在這邊兜數字你根本是在瞎扯淡我明明就說50萬戶你們租住補貼到了66萬戶可是你的黑市問題沒有解決"},{"start":27874.502,"end":27896.655,"text":"您現在講的是一般上面的租屋市場不是我們現在在租金補貼上的補貼對象是政府有責任要給人民可負擔的有保障的多元的居住選擇權利那現在我們居住正義剛剛講的三階段設宅蓋的速度不夠所以現在設宅有限租屋市場不透明也有可能租金也隨著這樣子上漲"},{"start":27897.495,"end":27913.429,"text":"那房價門檻更高到讓年輕人難以跨越那麼可以看一下我們這個現在的居住正義是這樣看一下我們的簡報設宅租屋到購屋已經完全的失衡了那我想要請問一下有沒有第4種可能性"},{"start":27914.791,"end":27936.587,"text":"政府目前有沒有在這個土地的盤點除了新建設宅之外有沒有另外一種去思考一種中間型的住宅方案另外半永久式的或是類似這樣青年可負擔宅的規劃類似像新加坡的主屋的模式同時具備長期居住然後封閉市場封閉市場的條件可負擔的條件請問我們有沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":27937.647,"end":27955.434,"text":"報告委員其實各種的規劃包括你所說的這個不管是英國的或者是新加坡的我們都有在考慮當中但是在台灣一般人是安土中堅的狀況之下他們當然希望社會住宅住得越久越好變成他們永久的租屋市場不像現在是6年那所以我們也在考慮說除了年輕人以外"},{"start":27955.894,"end":27958.675,"text":"我想要表達的是我支持這樣的方向那我也希望我剛剛說的多元的可負擔的好不好"},{"start":27977.203,"end":27980.329,"text":"多元可負擔的﹑可以保障的﹑請往這邊方向推動"},{"start":27988.68,"end":28009.975,"text":"所以我還是要講居住正義不是大撒幣的臭數字而已要促進市場透明要完善整體的機制留下一個具體可以長期運作的制度給我們下一代這是我認為的居住正義希望我們未來4年未來的任期可以好好的推動把這個居住正義留給我們的下一代讓他們可以住得起房好不好再來"},{"start":28011.772,"end":28038.75,"text":"院長最近有很多民眾喔收到電價調漲的電費單不僅一般住戶抱怨甚至南台灣有串燒店因為抱怨店裡的電費破紀錄創新高真是謝了綠色是最噁心的顏色然後這個電價就被出征了請問院長電價高漲是事實但是現在連老百姓抱怨都被出征你不覺得很恐怖嗎院長我是覺得啊年年漲電價是一件非常恐怖的事情喔"},{"start":28039.583,"end":28064.551,"text":"老百姓跟店家的抱怨其實都不是沒有道理你可以知道我們的民生用電已經連續3年調漲已經累計漲了30.4%工業用電已經連續3次調漲再加上昨天第4波已經來到了66.27%所以你的官邸有公務預算可以出但是國內的這些產業用電可是要列為成本"},{"start":28065.615,"end":28091.18,"text":"那三年漲了66.27%請問有多少產業扛得住啊 院長我們這次對電價的討論電價審議委員會在討論過程當中我知道他們把握原則叫反映成本我們必須讓台電的成本適度反映出來所以這個是接近成本的一個計算現在民生電價連三漲百姓苦哈哈工業電價連四漲產業慘兮兮"},{"start":28094.921,"end":28112.237,"text":"但是這3年在漲電價的同時我們經濟部也在全年已經增資台電1500億去年易後特別條例預算又撥補了500億6月的時候經濟部呢又增資台電1000億已經補貼3000億了現在又希望立法院通過"},{"start":28114.279,"end":28125.666,"text":"這個2000億的補貼預算總共加起來是5000億這5000億台電左手跟人民漲電價右手拿人民的納給政府的稅金5000億的補貼全部都是老百姓的錢"},{"start":28126.516,"end":28155.262,"text":"那現在你們嘴巴上說尊重立法院的決定但是一邊漲電價一邊又要立法院通過這些預算補貼台電我想這看起來在老百姓的眼裡這不只是情緒勒索應該是真的在勒索那當然經濟部昨天有說這次調漲電價有兩個原則您剛剛有說到的一個是照顧民生穩定電價穩定物價另外一個是兼顧產業競爭力但是有學者就說這是大家經濟部在自己騙自己"},{"start":28156.175,"end":28184.564,"text":"因為這次的調漲生產成本會再度上升很難消弭民眾聽好囉民眾對於物價上漲的預期心理再者所謂兼顧這個產業競爭力連33會的這個林柏峰會長也就是說這次漲價會導致企業獲利減少大概5%廠商可能會外移或關廠進而影響勞動市場接下來無薪假裁員的情況會更多院長你能保證明年不再漲電價嗎我想問這個"},{"start":28187.748,"end":28211.258,"text":"今年我們是看到因為戰爭之後原物料的上漲所以我們在取得的成本上面經過核實的計算讓工業用戶比較大戶的這個用電戶能夠在反映成本跟使用者付費的原則底下這個電價審議委員會通過這樣的原則對現在能源政策就是成本太高嘛對不對好可是你願不願意承諾明年不會漲電價院長"},{"start":28213.684,"end":28235.594,"text":"報告委員我們這次漲的電價請回答我可不可以保證沒關係請回答我可不可以保證你們剛剛講的這些我昨天都有看我知道請問明年可以保證部長電價嗎所以你講說會造成什麼樣的經濟波動我們認為這個是都計算過的院長健保費都可以保障明年部長我們電費可以保障嗎不敢講"},{"start":28237.25,"end":28254.458,"text":"我也不能保證明年軍工價會不會調漲因為這要橫估很多的社會經濟條件我們必須在這個平衡底下才能來做一個決定不是現在還預估明年漲不漲所以沒關係就是不能夠保證嘛 對不對所以我們才可以進一步來討論這個保證太廉價也沒有意義啊"},{"start":28255.055,"end":28278.108,"text":"所以我們進一步來討論賴總統推動的五大信賴產業大概全數都是少數高毛利的電子產業或許還可以稱可是大部分的傳產包括在地方上已經有很多的中小企業工具機產業、旅宿業者甚至媒體也都報導電價在漲下去年底可能會倒一片恐怕會有一片停業潮這些業主還自嘲自己就是不受信賴產業"},{"start":28279.469,"end":28291.321,"text":"這就是這段時間人民的心聲我幫大家反映出來然後呢現在工廠公司停業人民失業然後老百姓抱怨一下就要被出征這樣子合理嗎"},{"start":28292.543,"end":28319.245,"text":"所以你剛剛有說要穩定民生所以民生電價不漲我認同那工業電價漲12.5%到現在漲了累積漲了66.27然後你昨天說剛剛我們部長有說衝擊到0.03%對不對所以我剛剛有說這是你們算出來那你有沒有算到這個我剛剛已經講過的經濟學裡面有人學者就提出民眾會有漲價的預期心理那這部分要怎麼處理這是第一件事"},{"start":28320.247,"end":28333.948,"text":"況且更多的官方數據統計都是低估的更何況0.03你目前是指今年那請問到明年呢明年你可以感受到明年這個時間不會超過0.03嗎對不對還是我們就到明年來看看到底是不是0.03"},{"start":28336.517,"end":28356.12,"text":"報告委員 我想我們這一次 你剛才在指導的說這個小企業或者是中型的企業 比較艱苦的這個企業我們會有兩個方式來幫助他們一個就是推動我們的AI 另外一個就是推動低碳化那麼也就是說我們會做深度的節能"},{"start":28356.641,"end":28368.379,"text":"我們深度的節能大概可以幫助他降低7%的用電我想用這個方法來提升他們的競爭力才會有辦法讓他們走向競爭的環境如果說光是電價來補助他"},{"start":28373.555,"end":28397.234,"text":"對我們來講那這個部分可不可以請你會後提供報告給我因為的確我認同這個方向我沒有不認同我覺得這個方向是對的但是我還是在跟你討論電價的問題和能源政策的問題因為目前為止因為你這個東西你剛剛講的那些東西是需要時間累積的好所以現在簡單來講短時間內漲這些東西會導致一些企業出走或是倒閉好那我你們有估算過嗎"},{"start":28399.124,"end":28406.966,"text":"我給你們看一個數據這是投審會的數據官方資料我國對外投資從99億美金大增到235.7億美金漲幅達2.38倍那外國人願意來台投資的從133億美金掉到112億一來一回大概就是淨流出123.7億美金"},{"start":28423.646,"end":28439.409,"text":"那這些數據就是活生生的代表現在就是的確很多的產業在往海外去設廠因為他擔心台灣任何的不穩定所以逼著他出去那基本上他們現在的狀況就只能面臨兩條路一要嘛我收掉賣掉"},{"start":28440.49,"end":28440.79,"text":"掌電價的調整"},{"start":28462.756,"end":28465.578,"text":"對於臺電的營運財務的健全有幫忙長電價同時我們也會透過經濟部的這個節約用電的團隊去幫各個大戶"},{"start":28475.913,"end":28476.213,"text":"我們就是發展綠能"},{"start":28503.663,"end":28529.649,"text":"而且能夠多方面的引進新的能源的總概念用天然氣來做橋接對行政院合併的能源發展綱領是2017年4月版也就是說這個綱領有8年沒有修正你覺得這樣合理嗎像日本我記得是3年就檢討一次另外對阿這個沒有更新阿院長你怎麼說還是你覺得8年前到現在都適用8年前沒有發生惡霧戰爭喔"},{"start":28530.816,"end":28542.448,"text":"我們現在很多的世界大廠來台灣設廠都指定要用綠電那我們如果沒有發展這個綠電的話我們跟世界接不上門我們現在發展的方向是對的我們過去的發展方向是對的"},{"start":28553.88,"end":28576.813,"text":"但因應這個情勢要隨時激動作討論我想我們都會進行那院長我在問經濟部已經編列了60億的核酸除疫費用所以代表明年你們就確定完全排除核能這個選項嗎是嗎核能的部分我們是這樣的就是說先先把這個預算編列因為站到目前的這個法令他還是要"},{"start":28577.711,"end":28599.92,"text":"要下載所以你還是模糊不清當渣男講不清楚到底要還是不要因為委員你這句話有修正的必要我們不是渣男我是說在能源政策上面要不要不講清楚就說我先編了然後到時候再看狀況因為這個是法令的規定我們一定要編如果法令可以解掉我們就不編"},{"start":28600.971,"end":28629.719,"text":"所以你不是說一定要把河山廠廢除囉這個當然是可以討論的議題所以你還是沒有確定嘛是不是你只要回答我這件事不是確定的問題這個是在法令的框架之下我們現在沒有辦法回答你我想這個大家都很關心啦其實你以前也有說過河山廠醫藥機已經除役那目前我們沒有一個重新啟動的法源可以來做所以目前無法討論所以有的話你們願意重啟嗎"},{"start":28630.475,"end":28652.361,"text":"那這個要經過社會的討論我們意思是說和安和廢跟社會共識是必要三個條件同時存在跟我們產業政策和環境政策影響所及非常的多陳一髮動全身剛剛討論那基本上還是一樣錯誤的能源配比那在這個能源和產業的關係上造成這個供電不穩進而降低廠商的競爭力那我想連黃仁勳也說過語重心長"},{"start":28654.982,"end":28672.292,"text":"穩定供電是台灣最大的挑戰要發展AI對嘛你們也都這樣想嘛所以謝謝其實我很喜歡我看到你們這樣點頭我覺得我是認同可是為什麼不敢做呢但是世界的大廠也紛紛要來台灣可是委員剛剛的時局到現在好像我們的產業一直往外走外國不進來我們的物價一直在上升"},{"start":28674.753,"end":28694.068,"text":"所以你要讓我們把話講清楚否則就停留在這個不是很正確的狀態裡面可是我用數據都拿出來給你看如果你覺得有異議你覺得有更好的數據提供你可以會後提供給我那個數字基本上是台積電到美國的這個數據所以它增加出來了所以台積電也去設廠了那也是總經理是外移"},{"start":28696.826,"end":28716.626,"text":"他就是因為外國的這個要求因為除了供電不穩之外﹖電價也連山漲所以我想這還是會有某種程度會帶動我們的通貨膨脹﹖會導致百化文就是錠毛效果﹖會讓我們物價回不去因為你接下來你也不能保證未來要不要再漲﹖因為你說還沒有辦法還沒有辦法到達成本所以我們建議癱瘓集中市場"},{"start":28720.56,"end":28738.067,"text":"亮飯店超商這個都不會去增加他的負擔就是要穩定物價最起碼該有的作為我想要講的就是其實現在我們可以整個邏輯看下來我們認為就是你們的能源政策在打假球主要的投手這個核電燃煤燃氣"},{"start":28739.187,"end":28750.916,"text":"都是主要先發投手像中繼後援的像水力風力太陽能這種就是一個一個釋出只剩下救援投手表現不穩定那如果你是球隊總經理那這樣子的配比你怎麼打比賽啊"},{"start":28751.84,"end":28777.687,"text":"被迫那到時候還沒有考量到國安問題50%的燃氣我們被封鎖了怎麼辦因為我時間不多我就先講我就是要跟你表達這件事情你們的能源政策如果在配比上不認真的務實的去檢討你們就是打假球打假球為什麼還要打因為後面有利益有財團是不是在護航誰這就是民眾的疑問這就是說為了堅持錯誤能源政策會讓民眾覺得說你是不是就為了貪腐"},{"start":28778.487,"end":28787.171,"text":"最後我還是想要問現在的政府對於能源政策不會拿來在偏袒哪一個團體哪一個哪一些人不會這樣做你放心謝謝廖委員"},{"start":28807.728,"end":28812.672,"text":"好 謝謝卓院長下一位請徐宇貞委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請卓院長請院長備詢"},{"start":28844.298,"end":28873.041,"text":"徐委員好院長好辛苦了我想請教一下卓院長因為今天我想要請教卓院長大概就是一些最近大家都很關心的一些議題其中第一項就是有關國土計劃法記得您第一次到立法院來備詢的時候我有請教過您相關的問題那我們可以看一下我們現在國土計劃法我們都可以知道就是為了國家的糧食安全所以我們現在有劃定了74到81萬公頃的必須要作為農地"},{"start":28874.967,"end":28885.982,"text":"來供應國家的糧食安全我想請教一下這個院長您可以看一下我們下一張這個國土計畫法的目前的一個佼佼狀況"},{"start":28887.299,"end":28914.391,"text":"我們可以看到雲林縣目前劃定的是農一是六萬然後農二是兩萬六千多百公頃然後屏東縣它雖然農地面積比較大但是它的農一目前只劃了五千七百七十六公頃那我想請教一下如果秦雙院長如果屏東可以這樣做那其他縣市是不是也能夠比照屏東的方式來劃設把國有地劃設為農一私有地劃設為農二"},{"start":28916.175,"end":28931.02,"text":"這是地方政府跟我們的相關單位要去做一個協商跟配合那總歸的是全國的土地要在能夠掌握有效資源的利用之下我們才能做這樣國土規劃的活動所以院長的意思也是同意全國的標準應該要一致"},{"start":28932.18,"end":28952.803,"text":"我想跟委員說明就是各縣市政府在劃農業發展區的時候除了照相關的一些劃設的原則以外還會參考縣市的發展的一個情況去處理第二個部分就是說屏東縣它劃起來看起來比較低是因為現在目前一般劃農一農二都是用"},{"start":28953.383,"end":28980.959,"text":"特農跟一般農為基底的這不是看起來比較低喔是低很多那我現在要請教的是說記得當時喔那時候是這個縣長是潘孟安潘縣長他在劃設這個部分的時候呢我想內政部跟農業部其實好像針對這個部分其實也都覺得這樣子做法有別於其他縣市來劃設其實是不對的那也有提出了道德勸說但是最後因為畢竟嘛這個劃設分區圖是"},{"start":28983.222,"end":28983.242,"text":"請問是這樣嗎?"},{"start":28991.834,"end":29005.74,"text":"應該不是這樣子我跟委員說明限制政府公展以後他審議完了以後會送到內政部來內政部會用合議的方式去處理這段時間還在溝通目前看到的資料的話現在是限制政府的資料暫時是這樣的資料請問一下為什麼當時雲林縣在提報的時候就被退回然後要求重劃這個我要澄清"},{"start":29019.745,"end":29034.252,"text":"現階段的國土的相關的這些功能分區圖都是在縣市政府的階段都沒有送到所謂的中央的部會內政部這邊來審議所以也沒有所謂說農業部退回去並沒有退回去這件事"},{"start":29040.054,"end":29068.365,"text":"一千五百四十公頃要他們把這化成為農二要求他們這個恢復成農醫這是在一百一十一年一月四號的第21次的演商會議所以這個部分可能我想這個資料都是明確的所以這個部分我是想請教院長就是說是不是針對國土計畫的這個區區分法可以讓各縣市都有統一的標準這剛剛部長已經解釋過了所以我想請教院長是不是可以這樣"},{"start":29070.046,"end":29092.042,"text":"這是有一個統一的標準讓大家可以徵詢那如果有違反一致的標準當然可以拿出來討論那剛剛部長解釋是在全國一致的標準那現在呢其實為什麼很多的農民很多的這個地方農業縣的縣政府對這個部分其實都非常的憂慮主要就是因為農一跟農二到底有什麼差別"},{"start":29092.822,"end":29114.135,"text":"我直接的說因為在溝通的過程當中我們希望用土地專業理性去溝通但是如果有人一直在跟農民講說一旦實施的農民就永世不得翻身這種政治性的操作我覺得應該要停下來請教院長農一跟農二有什麼差別從事農業來講是完全沒有差的對農業來講是完全沒有差那既然這樣的話為什麼就乾脆劃在一起就不要分農一農二呢"},{"start":29120.629,"end":29123.891,"text":"因為其實我們現在一直說不清楚農一農二其實並不像院長剛剛講的那樣就是說大家在恐嚇農民不是而是因為現在的一個"},{"start":29142.339,"end":29144.121,"text":"對農民的補貼：農民的差異：農業縣市：草野立委提出質疑："},{"start":29158.892,"end":29180.426,"text":"我們可以看到99%的農會也都反對國土計畫法,為什麼?因為就是不夠了解,而且這個補貼或是相關的一個配套措施或相關的法令其實都一直不清楚,尤其是我們的總共會有23項的執法,目前已經完成14項,還有9項還沒有完成。"},{"start":29181.365,"end":29205.966,"text":"是這樣嗎請教一下部長我可不可以回答一下我跟委員報告一下其實國土計畫它有二級審議一級審議在縣市地方政府二級審議才到中央來那你剛有提到說在延商計畫當中被退回就我們內政部所主管的國土計畫唯一有一次被撤回的部分是桃園市因為它名詞或用詞不當所以其實並沒有像你所想像所以請部長可能回去查一下我時間"},{"start":29206.787,"end":29232.569,"text":"還包括哪一次都已經明確的告知部長﹖我知道﹖但是有些延長會議﹖並不代表官方的審議會議﹖我要跟您報告一下﹖那這部分是不是請部長﹖能夠回去查清楚﹖那可以讓雲林縣有一個﹖瞭解清楚整個的那種風貌﹖如果可以的話﹖他們就再送﹖再把這1500公斤再歸回去﹖對 院長再三指示說﹖一定要好好的溝通﹖那我剛剛跟您報告的部分就是說﹖就我所瞭解的部分﹖"},{"start":29233.129,"end":29233.83,"text":"其實我想對於農業縣的縣市長來說他們希望"},{"start":29255.606,"end":29256.767,"text":"報告委員 農會、農民跟農地的權益從來沒有被不保障過可能很多人是誤解的"},{"start":29282.748,"end":29289.93,"text":"雲林縣也是比照屏東縣的畫設標準來去做這樣可以嗎他們畫完以後我們農業部一定會跟他們溝通跟討論像是雲林縣政府講的原來農業裡面有部分的地層下減區那我們覺得說地層下減區放在農業也不合理"},{"start":29308.636,"end":29323.514,"text":"一旦他們提出來以後我們就會進到實質的一個討論去做一個調整就是原則上我們就是希望說這個雲林縣也可以比照屏東縣的一個畫色的標準來去把農因農惡釐清那我覺得在這個部分我覺得我們應該要先公佈這個完整的這個"},{"start":29324.935,"end":29345.329,"text":"我們的配套措施還有補償措施甚至法令完成你看我們23項的這個執法其實經過9年了都還有9項到現在還沒完成那怎麼能夠期待我們其他的我們國土計畫裡面的23項裡面現在9項是在預告還有1項要討論而已所以到明年的4月30之前所謂的23項會完全全部完成所以這個部分可能請這個院長希望縣市政府可以跟農民講清楚"},{"start":29353.674,"end":29375.401,"text":"對 剛剛是講說農一跟農二其實沒有太大的差別可是我們可以看到現在這張圖喔我們是依據這個國土署的這個送審的資料可以看到其實差別是很大的所以說為什麼會這樣子呢我們是 它有導致農地的價格會降低而且對農民來說是財產權的一個受損所以呢我們根據憲法喔各位可以看一下根據憲法"},{"start":29378.217,"end":29400.086,"text":"有保障人民的財產權根據釋字第444號如果國家依法行使公權利致人民的財產遭受損失也應該要形成個人的特別的犧牲也應該要給予合理的補償所以說院長您有沒有認為應該要給予農民多少的怎麼樣的補償才算是合理您心目中有沒有一個具體的一個數字"},{"start":29401.889,"end":29420.501,"text":"我覺得應該跟農民朋友要說明清楚國土計法法裡面真正它的用意如何來使用它的管制的規定那你剛剛提到農一農二為什麼要把它分開我們都混回一起2016年當初5月之前設定立這個法的時候它就這樣設定啦那除非現在我們重新再來"},{"start":29421.101,"end":29425.685,"text":"那經過這麼多年 不只是司法沒有動 連母法也沒有動阿我跟委員說明齁"},{"start":29449.523,"end":29464.425,"text":"我們農業部對於農民或是農產業的一個支援的投入來協助農民的政策不會因為國土計畫而改變換句話說它不是一個說國土計畫要通過了才會有補貼沒通過就沒補貼"},{"start":29465.219,"end":29465.419,"text":"對於農民的"},{"start":29490.672,"end":29504.318,"text":"各項的補貼政策所使用的經費預算都相當的足夠那我記得說2023年我是指這個堆疊式的補貼堆疊式的補貼到目前為止我們在沒有新增加的情況之下大概有差不多100億左右是在進行我們農業本身我給這個院長跟部長看一個數字就是"},{"start":29518.405,"end":29539.816,"text":"民進黨政府大量的推動綠能所以我們可以看到如果我們在今年應該明年114年度的預算台電也編列了824億要購買太陽能的電力那請問院長你知道這個農地你們可以看到我們租給太陽能的業者的話一年可以收多少的租金40萬的租金"},{"start":29540.748,"end":29556.548,"text":"也就是說什麼都不用做就可以收40萬的租金所以說針對這個部分我們可以看一下那如果農民呢農民他們到一年的收益是多少我們可以看下一張這個是根據農糧署的給的資料農民一年下來"},{"start":29557.469,"end":29557.769,"text":"委員長 我想"},{"start":29577.35,"end":29577.37,"text":"請問院長"},{"start":29590.376,"end":29617.479,"text":"光電的補貼我們還是希望農漁民還是從事他的生產啊這個才是對農民最好的照顧啊對啊但是呢問題是不利耕作的他只要租給光電一年就40萬的收益那什麼我們這個優良農地的農民需要很努力很用心的而且一整年喔這個可以說有可能搞不好雪本文貴最多也就12萬多這個實在是對我們的這個弱勢的農民是非常的不公平喔"},{"start":29617.919,"end":29646.344,"text":"所以本期在這邊有具體的三個主張請院長聽看看第一個就是希望院長能夠能夠召集跨部會的業務因為現在就有農業部內政部甚至可能還有其他部會那我們希望說能夠盡速的制定國土計劃法施行後的完整的配套以減少農業縣市跟農民的損失第二個希望農業部應該針對有受限制及有實質耕作的農地給予對地補貼那行政院也希望能夠參考太陽能光電美工"},{"start":29647.399,"end":29669.889,"text":"請的租金的收益支持農業部所需的預算第三個也是因應大家現在共同提出的不管草野立委都提出的就支持國土計劃法的修正草案將施行日期展延兩年讓農業縣市有更長的時間可以準備並有充足的時間跟農民溝通我在這邊代表廣大弱勢的農民請求院長"},{"start":29671.449,"end":29685.316,"text":"回答委員第一點我們現在已經有劉金青政委跟陳靜德政委再加上內政部跟農業部對國土計畫法的如何的推動如何跟農民做溝通說明持續的在進行相關會議當中第二點農業部"},{"start":29687.677,"end":29701.869,"text":"他對於農民的一些預算上面的補助跟支持常年以來都實質在增加剛剛說過去年達到200多億那我們會從這個制度面再去做更多的設想那第三個部分我覺得這個需要朝野有共識"},{"start":29702.95,"end":29703.05,"text":"社會住宅"},{"start":29727.344,"end":29736.09,"text":"社會住宅興建的進度可以看到既有加新完工大概是31434戶興建中大概是42956戶以決標代開工的大概是31992戶規劃中的是15556戶所以呢根據"},{"start":29749.04,"end":29766.855,"text":"院長您的這個施政報告裡面這邊的第6頁有提到今年底將達成12萬戶的目標可是就我們一般人看起來或我們一般人的認知已經完工的才算是已經完成的這個社會住宅"},{"start":29767.375,"end":29767.495,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":29785.242,"end":29809.487,"text":"是我想委員您講得非常的正確就是說如果我們把這個以絕標代開工的還有興建當中把它去掉的話確實在第一階段的109年底的時候我們是達標的是4萬戶而已所以您現在但是如果你把已經絕標跟新完工還有既有的加在一起的話到113年的8月底一共是106382戶"},{"start":29812.805,"end":29835.507,"text":"那個是以絕標待開工﹖也就是還沒開工﹖請問還沒開工可以住嗎﹖更不可能住啊﹖當然﹖所以我的意思就是說﹖你不能把以絕標待開工﹖都當作你們已經完成的目標﹖是﹖所以技術的標準不一樣﹖包括說﹖您剛剛也特別提到﹖剛剛我們的廖偉強﹖廖委員在提到的時候﹖您剛剛也回答說﹖也是報告裡面第7頁有的﹖"},{"start":29837.549,"end":29853.746,"text":"這個針對百萬租屋家庭支持計畫大概在2032年會達到25萬戶的住宅社會住宅那剛剛廖委員希望你們簽一個承諾書院長沒有簽嘛那我知道院長其實為什麼您沒有簽你知道嗎因為我們看下一張"},{"start":29856.067,"end":29866.46,"text":"審計部其實已經打臉了因為審計部這邊的報告特別提到在120年底蔡英文總統的12萬社會住宅只能蓋好98,699戶也就是說在"},{"start":29871.476,"end":29872.416,"text":"報告委員我可不可以補充說明一下"},{"start":29895.126,"end":29922.597,"text":"您現在所說的審計部的報告是112年針對過去啊這個蔡英文總統開始要蓋社會住宅跟包租貸款的戶數她是依照剛剛那個數字喔她是依照剛剛那個數字去推算的喔包括說20113年到8月底大概可以有37,017我們也看到審計部的報告所以我們現在重新在規劃的部分的話所以跟您剛剛提到的包括這個報告有非常大的落差"},{"start":29923.137,"end":29935.422,"text":"那我覺得這個部分呢其實我們應該要對國人說清楚講名牌而不是用這樣子的一個這樣子的數字去美化然後讓大家以為說我們社會住宅的成績很好我們應該務實的去面對務實的去面對這樣子的問題"},{"start":29939.659,"end":29955.965,"text":"省計部的報告也許他是用過去我們在興建的各種方式來做一個計算跟推演那現在我們也看到執行上目前遇到的這些比較慢的速度所以他用多元的方式在取得土地甚至我們希望跟民間能夠做更充分的合作"},{"start":29956.385,"end":29961.347,"text":"更快速的請求 請求獨立來興建組織都有在討論這個部分其實這個數字就是會說謊目前的狀況也是這樣所以我們應該要怎麼樣去凸顯這樣的問題來去加速這個社會住宅能夠達到目標才是重點"},{"start":29974.192,"end":29978.415,"text":"社會住宅基本上是住宅中心執行的你知道520之後內政部很多人都希望調到住宅中心去你知道為什麼嗎?"},{"start":29993.118,"end":30020.449,"text":"住都中心它現在是一個算是民間的基金會它比較不受公務員的影響但是問題是住都中心的工作量也非常的大我不曉得有沒有這個原因但是我知道的狀況是院長您的薪資我們可以看到大概一個月是346,960這是院長的薪資那我們可以看到下一張住都中心的執行長一個月就有302,848還不包含主管家籍"},{"start":30021.505,"end":30044.847,"text":"所以你就知道為什麼住都中心他在114年度的用人費用高達5.44億支援有460人比原民會、客委會、公共工程委員會的人事費用都還高很多就是因為他們都坐臨高薪坐臨高薪如果可以把事情做好其實我們也都認同但是目前我們可以看到社會住宅嚴重的落後所以我們可以看到這個"},{"start":30046.088,"end":30073.74,"text":"這個部分是不是可以請部長能夠把這個部分能夠了解清楚為什麼這個我們的住住中心坐領這麼高的薪水可是呢就沒有辦法達到這樣的效果本來在我們通過住住中心的這樣子的基金會的時候就已經把薪資表按照這樣羅列出來所以其實我並沒有做更動那第二個呢住住中心呢在這個賴總統上任之後呢其實加速在全台灣各地包括在金門馬祖離島的地方都有住住中心要蓋的社會住宅"},{"start":30074.44,"end":30096.041,"text":"所以其實他們是非常的忙碌的部長其實在112年的這個省計部的決算報告也提出了很多租屋中心的一些問題包括說租金收入未達領口次大運的租金收入未達新辦事業計畫的預期還有出租人或業者藝齡補助費用等等相關的問題很多那他們就很高興而且有很大的問題那不需要檢討嗎"},{"start":30097.636,"end":30121.618,"text":"報告如果您提到林口社宅的部分其中有一部分作為清創基地在林口社宅完全交接之前已經甚至我們還聽到部長我甚至還聽到很多就是說你在住宅中心去如果你後台不夠硬還進不去我就知道我就已經有人跟我講說就有一位是民進黨選過議員落選的人現在也在住宅中心暫缺但是是在部會任職"},{"start":30122.859,"end":30133.26,"text":"所以住都中心現在是不是已經變成這個民進黨的退福會還是這個肥貓養成中心那是不是只能夠姊弟長能夠了解清楚之後在一個月之內給我報告好嗎"},{"start":30135.86,"end":30162.371,"text":"另外我再請教院長就是詐騙的問題也是大家非常關心的目前的話因為我們不管是行動電話的使用率或者是網路的使用率其實都非常的高有超過六成的民眾曾經接到過電話或網路詐騙的相關電話我想請教院長部長跟在座的官員請問你或是你的家人有沒有人收過詐騙集團的電話"},{"start":30166.374,"end":30173.119,"text":"有的話請舉手都會有一些親朋好友會給我們這樣的訊息受過詐騙集團的電話來電這幾年下來我們對於認識詐騙的各種的宣導還是有一些成效但是我還是承認詐騙的案件在社會上大家還是非常的痛苦"},{"start":30188.712,"end":30205.455,"text":"那我想這個部分我們可以先看一下行事警察局在這7年來他們有一個這個詐騙的案件跟金額的統計你可以看到的就是到去年底他的這個詐騙的件數來到了37984那詐騙的金額也到88.7億元那請問主委院長針對打詐這個中心講說他們現在的這個打詐成績其實越來越好那請問院長您對這個成績滿意嗎"},{"start":30218.971,"end":30219.291,"text":"我們看下一張號"},{"start":30234.338,"end":30249.729,"text":"而且很多科技的詐騙我們都必須往下做我們現在有一個打債預表板 行政署的打債預表板我現在只有列出7月跟8月的這個受理案件數跟這個財損金額光7月就111億光8月就137億就光這兩個月就這麼高的一個這個財損的一個金額"},{"start":30258.175,"end":30282.724,"text":"那我們為什麼我先問完我們可以看到為什麼會有這麼高的經驗我們可以看到詐騙的手法你可以看到有很多種第一點我們可以看到跟第四點其實差不多就是都是投資詐騙都是投資詐騙那我們可以看到就是說既然投資詐騙非常的多那是不是這方面的宣導應該也要更多好的"},{"start":30286.366,"end":30309.523,"text":"打詐疑表板就是我們長官要求說我們不可以有黑數所以就是每一天都會公佈打詐疑表板所以說表示現在這個是沒有黑數的然後裡面的案件數其實我們已經把它更動也就是說一人一案而不是像以前很多人一案那還有一個詐騙的金額的部分是他們主觀認定跟確定有多少詐騙金額是不一樣的你知不知道我們打詐成效不彰的原因有哪些"},{"start":30312.057,"end":30327.874,"text":"打架事法剛通過打架成效不彰過去我們是苦於手中沒有強而有力的法律依據那現在我們已經經過大院也審定了打架新法這個理由絕對不存在我們希望能夠"},{"start":30328.554,"end":30334.876,"text":"有補充充足的人力有法律的依據甚至我們有科技先進的科技設備所以說我們其實打詐這部分我想一般人普遍的認知都是覺得說詐騙的問題越來越猖狂越來越嚴重"},{"start":30350.38,"end":30372.455,"text":"當然我們也希望說我們的這個宣導要用在對的地方用在對的人還有就是因為其實年輕人被詐騙的居多那他們其實都習慣用網路尤其是我們看到金管會有一個防詐專區您可以看一下就裡面有很多金融防詐的一個資訊點進去看您可以看一下就是"},{"start":30374.251,"end":30398.398,"text":"瀏覽的人次大概從2489到5809不等大概瀏覽人次這樣你不要以為一天的瀏覽人次有這麼多其實這個瀏覽人次是兩年2022年9月到現在都沒有更新了兩年的時間有2000多人關瀏覽就代表說一天可能三個人"},{"start":30398.945,"end":30399.746,"text":"通過金管會跟財政部我們的公民銀行戶"},{"start":30425.06,"end":30442.047,"text":"在臨櫃的服務方面對於打詐的這個功能是展現出來的他們的服務已經超越了原來的這個工作上的職務所以他們的金管會跟財政部跟公民銀行他們的宣導是多樣性的那這一點確實需要加強我們再請彭主委加強能夠把網頁做得更生動活潑更有直線式效應"},{"start":30450.771,"end":30450.931,"text":"請經管會特別注意"},{"start":30466.726,"end":30494.178,"text":"實現委員的指正這我們會馬上來另外最近還有一個議題請教一下院長最近這個新興併就是台新金跟新光金的議題受到全國的矚目那新光金大概10月11號也要召開臨時的一個股東會請問一下院長證券公司可以把客戶持股的資料給我們的這些公司能夠任意的使用嗎"},{"start":30495.441,"end":30497.604,"text":"也就是說營業員可以打電話給客戶說要委託書嗎"},{"start":30501.38,"end":30529.968,"text":"我們覺得這個對於個資如果這樣的使用的話應該是不對的嘛對那我這邊就有一個實際的例子就是我的助理就接到這樣的電話就是他在那個這個星光金有這樣子一個股票然後營業員打給他要不要這個可不可以把他的委託書給他我覺得這樣子的就像剛剛院長講的就是個資的問題可能就因為這樣的洩漏而且像這樣子的一個大型金控公司如果都自行利用證券公司的個資"},{"start":30530.828,"end":30531.588,"text":"我們會請同仁去了解一下"},{"start":30547.717,"end":30565.582,"text":"我覺得這樣子其實會讓我們一般的老百姓都會覺得心生恐懼我是一個正常的管道去投資但是在這個公司開戶之後居然我的個資是可以用這樣的一個方式洩露出去那萬一洩露到詐騙集團手上要怎麼辦"},{"start":30566.762,"end":30591.774,"text":"所以這個部分可能要麻煩一下可能我們現在就像剛剛院長講的我們通過這個詐騙犯罪妨礙委之條例之後打詐司法之後我們都希望能夠把詐騙能夠降到最低但是呢現在的狀況目前看起來不是這樣目前看到這個件數越來越多那也希望這個部分院長一定要讓我們的這些相關的部會能夠針對這個打詐的這個部分能夠多多的宣傳"},{"start":30592.614,"end":30594.215,"text":"我當然鼓勵大家對我們的農民多多的支持"},{"start":30622.577,"end":30645.089,"text":"那其實呢﹖您知道嗎﹖今年就有部會是買這個日本的葡萄﹖去送給這個﹖這個必須請部會要檢討﹖其實這是國安局今年買的﹖就是送禮用的﹖是國安局﹖那為什麼國安局不買臺灣的水果呢﹖我們都在推廣這個農民的這個權益﹖"},{"start":30656.816,"end":30662.42,"text":"好謝謝謝謝徐委員下一位我們請張宏祿委員質詢"},{"start":30688.87,"end":30690.274,"text":"我先請院長請卓院長"},{"start":30703.525,"end":30721.904,"text":"張委員好院長好今天剛好是10月1號是中共我們以前叫偽政權不過今天是他們慶祝他們建政75週年所以他特別昨天晚上在人民大會堂又特別發表了談話"},{"start":30723.4,"end":30748.262,"text":"說到臺灣問題的時候他又說要堅持一個中國原則和九二共識深化兩岸經濟文化交流合作促進兩岸同胞心靈契合堅決反對台獨分裂活動最重要是他還是要說實現祖國完全統一啊我不知道院長啊我們這個對他說的這些話有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":30749.497,"end":30749.677,"text":"其實我們也是應該這樣"},{"start":30775.036,"end":30775.236,"text":"好,好,謝謝"},{"start":30804.355,"end":30813.985,"text":"那個 院長你先請坐啦齁我請交通部長啦你坐著沒關係啦不用一直站著啦委員站著我就必須站著我沒有站一整天齁"},{"start":30822.718,"end":30840.627,"text":"陳部長其實我不知道現在進勞卡是可以搭台鐵搭火車你也知道這個議題我在這個位置質詢了很多次你7月30號還有召開座談會針對這個議題我已經努力了好幾年了所以已經完成了"},{"start":30847.942,"end":30871.499,"text":"上一次的總質詢我有請教李孟彥部長我說台鐵就是一個成功的例子了那高鐵呢高鐵我認為也是可以然後那時候部長跟我講說其實他非常支持他回去會研究會趕快來做那我不知道"},{"start":30873.379,"end":30897.017,"text":"副長你這個交接的時候這些有沒有交接於你進度如何這個議題其實我有了解也有掌握那這個勁老卡其實每個縣市都有在發那我們也希望他能夠拓展到更多的運具從現在可以用的運具到未來可以用的運具要漸漸的來增加"},{"start":30897.947,"end":30926.264,"text":"那所以高鐵的部分委員也都一直很關心那部裡面也有跟高鐵公司這邊來做研究那目前所了解他們如果要做12個站體要能夠接受敬老卡的這個設施的話他們必須要改硬體那目前看起來算起來他們的硬體設施大概要7000萬左右不包含後面的軟體的那個更改軟體的更改另外算那另外呢也需要跟地方政府來配合因為每個縣市的敬老卡他的系統不盡相同"},{"start":30927.885,"end":30955.682,"text":"所以後面可能還有很多要延續來做但是前面的這個硬體建設我們已經跟高鐵公司在研究了看可不可以趕快來做部長跟院長我要一個觀念要溝通剛開始要不要搭火車搭台鐵大家就在講說各縣市這個額度不一然後各縣市意願不一我就說你只要把它做好了"},{"start":30956.994,"end":30972.189,"text":"我跟你講各縣市一定都會讓他們的長者可以去搭火車果不其然阿現在是不是幾乎阿全台灣的各縣市的長者都可以搭火車了同樣的道理"},{"start":30973.206,"end":30992.291,"text":"你高鐵你看才花7000多萬雖然是很這個數字我們不能說少但是全台灣的長者有多少你花了7000多萬我跟你講就會有縣市去配合只要一個縣市往前走全部就跟著走了"},{"start":30993.001,"end":31009.845,"text":"那可以讓一個長者他一個多一個選擇的空間讓他們可以去搭高鐵我認為是一個非常好的一件事情所以部長我覺得這7000多萬在整個交通部來講真的是九牛一毛我覺得應該要花啦好不好我不知道院長你的看法"},{"start":31017.208,"end":31042.913,"text":"謝謝委員 早上有位委員也提到問說我們是不是有敬老卡我就把敬老卡帶在身上我就把敬老卡帶在身上但是我真的用過它我搭過公車但是我還沒有搭過台鐵那如果它能夠更充分的使用的話那像我們這樣子還可以四處跑的人應該是相當的方便我是覺得建議交通部跟高鐵公司也能夠去協調一下盡量讓我們的長者能夠"},{"start":31043.922,"end":31067.806,"text":"因為活動而健康因為健康我們也不用這麼多的照顧的這個經費這樣來算的話7000多萬或是可以再節約一下是值得是應該的在這邊替全國的長者先謝謝卓院長替自己也爭取一下你還算年輕但替全國的長者真的謝謝因為不要覺得7000多萬多你全國那麼多人其實不多"},{"start":31068.7,"end":31069.08,"text":"再來部長"},{"start":31082.646,"end":31107.107,"text":"這個泰山板橋輕軌我一直在爭取一個色後支線這個部長你也剛上任可能不清楚可是我必須跟你講我們交通部這邊我們把這個規劃的路線什麼的其實都已經有設計的都已經有一個色後支線的輪廓出來了"},{"start":31109.761,"end":31129.782,"text":"那其實現在就是兩個一個新北市政府跟我們這邊大家能夠配合能夠把這個把它做好新北市政府也說他人道又要留了然後呢他又弄了好幾條的路線說一句白話就是因為選舉他在拖啦"},{"start":31131.035,"end":31156.324,"text":"因為這是一開始就是我提出來的啦那新北市政府的態度就是能拖就拖啦不要在選前齁這個能夠定案啦新北市政府的態度就是這樣啦那我在這邊我要跟部長你說包括泰山板橋輕軌那時候我第一次當立委的時候我就麻煩我們交通部給規劃的預算"},{"start":31158.663,"end":31185.192,"text":"但我覺得一個地方的交通建設不應該因為選舉不應該因為政黨的不同而拖到這個期程所以我要在這邊要跟部長你說該怎麼樣就怎麼樣我們硬起來嘛給新北市政府不要他每次要來他都一堆理由中央不支持然後怎麼樣中央支持的東西他故意在那邊拖"},{"start":31186.448,"end":31195.247,"text":"然後講一堆理由我把這個情況讓部長這樣你要交代你們底下你們鐵道部什麼的態度要硬起來"},{"start":31196.428,"end":31197.169,"text":"我們來努力推動"},{"start":31221.904,"end":31237.734,"text":"我們來努力推動態度要硬起來不可以讓新北市政府這樣子好不好 可以吧好那要拜託部長好 謝謝那我來請一下這個文化部長你"},{"start":31250.68,"end":31272.131,"text":"部長,在我們板橋有一個國家兒童未來館的一個新建計畫,不知道部長對這個計畫了解多少?跟委員報告一下,這個計畫到去年11月20號就已經正式設計圖已經出來,而且由那個日本的伊東李雄"},{"start":31273.231,"end":31298.677,"text":"臺灣的建築師標到這個案子然後設計圖已經做出來了我上任以後知道有這個案子以後我立刻在一個月內約伊東李雄來臺灣針對這個案子重新討論講出我們的一些想法我們彼此的想法非常接近他也非常愉快我們想要在一個打造像森林一般的這個森林一般的一個未來館那"},{"start":31300.962,"end":31323.809,"text":"之後就我們要花這兩年的時間今天跟明年要做構造設計跟細部設計還有執照的申請那在這個等待的過程中我已經決定要做一個願景館在那個草地上透過願景館跟我們的真正小孩子開始進行探索才了解什麼叫做未來什麼叫做兒童未來"},{"start":31324.629,"end":31324.649,"text":"部長"},{"start":31353.454,"end":31381.585,"text":"這一個國家兒童未來館以前叫做特專山的專用地9393年要蓋大台北新劇院我是支持的非常支持104年新北市政府他要蓋商辦蓋豪宅全板橋人只有我民意代表只有我敢反對我就是不讓他蓋商辦蓋豪宅"},{"start":31382.54,"end":31411.646,"text":"然後我當立委我積極爭取不管你要是新居院也好或是什麼的也好反正就是不可以蓋保護公司不可以蓋豪宅好不容易我的堅持跟我的爭取行政院合定了行政院164億165億合定了那現在我是希望他趕快好趕快做好我跟你講"},{"start":31412.799,"end":31430.946,"text":"委員長我必須要在前面說一下每一個部長上來都有他的新想法我不認為你們的新想法不對但不要每個部長來一個新想法又拖了這拖到什麼時候"},{"start":31432.432,"end":31453.2,"text":"對不對委員報告剛剛部長說過已經跟團隊來簽約了日方團隊簽約了後續內政部會接手國土組我希望在5年當中能夠完成院長簽約是部長還未來前就簽約了啦我說他5年當中要完成內政部國土組來接手我來解釋一下"},{"start":31453.82,"end":31482.601,"text":"包括曾經追加的預算我也跟設計師重新再算一遍說保證不能再追加預算然後在那個建築的體多大全部再確定一次我非常感動在一個大雨中走到那個這麼精華的地方我真的覺得非常大膽的決定要蓋這個羅東未來館那我沒有想要耽誤時間我覺得我一定要在期間內完成我不但要完成"},{"start":31483.342,"end":31488.804,"text":"而且希望充分利用它在蓋的過程中給我們兒童建築教育"},{"start":31489.52,"end":31494.844,"text":"我沒有說你會拖到時間我是說每次都這樣都會有很多改變這第一個是擔心第二個你也看到了我為什麼堅持在那塊地就是不可以蓋百貨公司什麼的"},{"start":31518.103,"end":31543.025,"text":"本橋最後一塊最大的樹地地點又最好你要做這些做什麼我其實有更好的想法更好的創意我們都可以接受只要是為了整個小孩子好因為這已經定案了未來是全台灣甚至全世界的小孩來的不是只有板橋的小孩子來的所以我在這邊我必須要說"},{"start":31544.046,"end":31545.228,"text":"施政報告"},{"start":31559.671,"end":31587.712,"text":"在這裡就是要跟部長你說不管有什麼新的想法 新的什麼拜託 風塵不要再因為新的想法 新的什麼大幅在變動了這樣子就會拖到很多的時間我不會有新的想法就在原有的結構裡面沒有太大改變這點請委員放心但是因為這麼珍貴的一塊土地對我們來講我真的是要好好的把它做成是一個世界級的兒童未來這點請委員放心"},{"start":31589.554,"end":31606.832,"text":"你的想法跟我一樣我們一起努力不過我也要請部長要跟你們的團隊說一下我是在地的立委我爭取我生出來的很多事情也要跟我溝通一下要尊重一下"},{"start":31620.036,"end":31641.008,"text":"好,謝謝張委員也謝謝卓院長發言會本日排定質詢的委員均與質詢完畢謝謝卓院長、政府院長及各部會首長列席答詢現做以下決定下次會繼續進行施政報告之質詢繼續處理復議案"},{"start":31644.022,"end":31660.377,"text":"本院民進黨黨團針對第一次會議報告事項第24案之決定提出復議請公決案現做以下決定另定其處理報告院會本次會議進行到此為止現在散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 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院長部長我想要請問一下川普有說台灣的國防預算應該要佔GDP的10%請教一下院長萬一我們的川普當選了你們會配合他嗎我們的國防預算是依照我們國家的需要就保衛國家安全那麼我們會來就這個需要的方面來編列我們相關的預算絕不是要"},{"start":148.715,"end":149.996,"text":"那院長我們是不是就不會停他的"},{"start":178.479,"end":200.081,"text":"我會因為他講一句話就要做這件事我們聽我們的以及聽我們的三軍統帥跟國防部的規劃三軍統帥好我們明年國防預算已經上看6740億已經佔GDP的2.45%所以現在川普的說法要求我們到10%的話等於是國防預算要達到兩兆7所以我在這裡還有包含剛剛送這些東西就是也要呼籲我們賴清德總統"},{"start":202.603,"end":221.941,"text":"大國以仁小國以治希望我們的賴總統我們的三軍統帥可以有智慧的帶領我們中華民國和平穩定的發展千萬不要變成輕德斯基委員放心這個不僅是國策也是總統率領國家的重要的方向好謝謝我們的顧部長可以回座了"},{"start":224.643,"end":235.419,"text":"總委員長賴清德總統上任前宣誓要做100萬戶的社會住宅其中50萬戶是租金補貼25萬戶是社會住宅25萬戶是包租代管的三大方向"},{"start":236.021,"end":262.589,"text":"那先談租金補貼的部分我想請教院長目前內政部使用了不涉及不追稅不查稅的方式現在總共核准了將近66萬戶今年補助補貼的金額也超過了265億所以我是想要問一下院長你們現在這樣子的是不是代表你們要跟國人報告你們的百萬戶的社會住宅政策賴清德上任半年就已經達成了66萬戶對嗎"},{"start":265.145,"end":267.866,"text":"所以意思就是說賴慶哲上任半年已經達成超過50萬戶的社會住宅是這樣的意思嘛對不對"},{"start":280.202,"end":299.516,"text":"在百萬戶這個家庭輔助計畫裡面的三支箭第三支箭確實是已經達到所以意思就是說你們已經達標而且還超標了66萬戶OK不過我想要請先看看我們院長看看國土署當初發布的新聞稿300億的這個中央擴大租金補貼專案你們國土署的新聞稿怎麼寫的"},{"start":300.516,"end":313.583,"text":"當初這個300億的中央擴大補貼的方案就是說希望掌握市場上大量有效的租約資訊將透過定期統計公開達成租屋市場透明化那我想請問你們目前有掌握租屋黑市的狀況嗎"},{"start":314.92,"end":330.012,"text":"報告委員我想這個部分大概也是相對很多委員希望知道的不管是租金補貼或是包租貸款我們透過我們的地政資料現在慢慢地把去識別化的狀態之下都把它按照地區有公布出來相關的租金補貼的狀況但是它是一個區塊的方式而不是一個一個"},{"start":338.519,"end":354.363,"text":"好 那我等一下給你看 我想請教院長 你們說本來是說2025年1月份要公布資料但看一下現階段的資訊根據內政部不動產交易實價查詢服務網就會發現租賃查詢的實價登錄總共只有大概10.5萬戶那零補助的戶數跟剛剛就是說66萬戶相差了將近55萬戶"},{"start":359.944,"end":379.037,"text":"這就是我們現在台灣租屋黑市的現況請問院長你對於這樣的成績滿意嗎委員你的說法的基準不太一樣我剛剛跟您報告了就是說現在呢領取租金補貼的總共有60幾萬戶這些部分在我們地政司裡面都有相關的資料但是我們把它去識別化以後按照地區呢已經把它公佈而且放在我們的官網上面"},{"start":379.926,"end":401.69,"text":"你是說像這個中央剛剛我說的我們放在我們內政部的官網裡面那為什麼我去聞的時候你跟我說沒有不是你們的業務要不要看一下我們的那個公文租屋黑樹研究及統計非本屬業管統計全責無資料提供你剛剛還說有下面這就是你們回我的公文阿"},{"start":403.664,"end":423.144,"text":"您現在講的這個租屋的這個黑數的部分是大概就是說第一個他不是找這個官方的包租代管或是經過我們土地租金跟那個官方申請的部分沒關係所以你說你66萬戶都有掌握是這樣嗎?是的因為他們有申請租金補貼的話我們就知道他到底是誰你都知道每個位置在哪裡然後這個屋主是誰那為什麼沒有實價登錄上去?"},{"start":426.029,"end":436.019,"text":"實價登錄沒有我剛跟委員報告的部分他是一個區塊的方式區塊的方式那我給你看實價登錄只有在我們買賣的這個房產的房地產上面才會有租屋的實價登錄"},{"start":438.243,"end":466.857,"text":"我剛有說內政部有租屋的租金的部分好現在我跟你說你剛說區塊的部分我給你看現在內政部公開透明的方式就是一個區一個中位數院長請你看一個區一個中位數也沒有不知道有沒有電梯不知道房屋種類不知道屋齡連幾坪都不知道只有把25分位50分位75分位公布出來光看這資料我可不可以說臺北市的房租比新北市還要便宜這樣合理嗎所以我要講的事情就是"},{"start":468.001,"end":490.242,"text":"你再變也沒用連立法院的預算中心都已經明確指出我國多數的租屋案件未納入實價登錄對眾多租屋人口權益保障朋友欠完備推動租屋市場價格透明化容待精進我想容待精進這四個字這幾個字都講得很客氣了所以院長這樣擴大租金補貼的專案從2022年到2025年預估多少"},{"start":495.237,"end":517.142,"text":"剛剛部長在跟委員報告的過程就是說112年有效租約的案件大概75%我們都有掌握他的資訊那麼在租金透明化的過程當中是集中在大學周邊以及每個行政區我們做這樣的先大規模大街廓的大區域的公佈請問2022到2025預估要補貼發出多少錢"},{"start":521.116,"end":526.864,"text":"按照我們現在在114年要求這個行政院補助的部分的話大概是有200億左右"},{"start":528.41,"end":549.448,"text":"為什麼這邊的數字大概是200億應該是今年吧對不對我現在說的是114年的部分對所以我說2022到2025預估總共要多少2022開始到現在為止這個比較小一點大概也是大概也是大概804億沒有那是加總的部分對就是加總我剛剛就是說加總對我就是說加總嘛我說2022到2025"},{"start":554.79,"end":558.301,"text":"國家駐都中心興建4年的社宅加總工程費用多少?"},{"start":559.967,"end":585.056,"text":"大概872億我們可以看到租金補貼的政策的經費將近已經逼近我們新建社宅的經費況且全世界也沒有人會把租金補貼當成社宅的認定報告委員租金補貼的部分在住宅法裡面確實有名列進去所以我們認為租金補貼也算是住宅法規執行的一部分我剛剛已經說50萬戶也算進去我只是把這個全世界沒有人這樣講的把它補進去而已"},{"start":586.116,"end":597.268,"text":"所以連省紀部111年的決算報告都曾經指出問題直接寫租賃市場產生租屋黑市或地下化的問題所以導致中央地方機關雖然積極推動租金補貼等協助措施卻無法確實發揮效益"},{"start":603.374,"end":628.212,"text":"也就是說現在黑市不解決 補助就沒有辦法實質發揮效益甚至還發生易領的狀況 有發生易領一億多那請問賴清德居住正義補貼50萬戶是為了湊數字還是要促進租屋市場透明院長我要講的是新清安政策也是狂撒幣 但是撒下去之後就出問題了院長我也很擔憂你的租金補貼政策會不會跟新清安一樣"},{"start":629.182,"end":637.436,"text":"為了要達到居住正義的目的但是反而手段不正義欠缺通盤規劃導致我們國家的住宅政策一團混亂"},{"start":638.835,"end":665.821,"text":"我這個是百萬豬家庭支持計劃方案的一部分那一起我們設定他是50萬戶那現在因為市場反應大家需求現在到60幾萬戶這三個方向我都很清楚我繼續問未來我們也希望他不要在毫無限制的一直往上增加我們重點還是要放在直接興建跟包租貸款謝謝你要直接興建跟包租貸款嗎好我們現在講興建設宅的部分請教院長賴清德總統說要蓋25萬戶設宅"},{"start":668.069,"end":697.206,"text":"那目前由中央興建完工並且已經可以招租的才總共4767戶喔3萬多戶欸這是完工已經可以供招租的喔這是你們網路上的數字喔沒有3萬多戶現在你說3萬多戶可以出租了是不是已經出出去了嗎已經有的像林口的話幾乎都是滿租的狀況欸你3萬多是包括地方政府喔我現在講的是中央政府興建且完工的喔你要講清楚喔你要看一下數字嗎是好你們興建且完工的"},{"start":698.203,"end":702.864,"text":"蔡英文8年加上賴清德半年總共不到2000戶的成績我想人民要怎麼相信你8年內能蓋完25萬戶所以我想問一下現在住租中心接下來要蓋多少戶"},{"start":722.32,"end":744.507,"text":"報告委員我們希望說中央跟地方一起努力然後到2032年之前可以完成25萬戶所以你的25萬戶不是只有中央興建是包含要把地方人都納進來了因為我們當時在協調地方的時候我們中央的國土署也有協助那我也想問你我也查了你們的資料截至今年5月你們盤點的總計219處的土地那總共只有7萬1千多戶你們盤點的土地只有7萬多戶算剩下18萬戶要蓋正了"},{"start":749.813,"end":771.213,"text":"是要填海造海 造陸嗎?還是你現在夠了嗎?盤地方的你這些土地有夠嗎?是 跟委員報告我們現在當然是在盤點土地當中而且希望能夠有多元的管道而且我們希望說透過每個縣市地方政府的都市計畫在未來做區段徵收的時候會釋放出3%到5%的土地供我們興建住宅 社會住宅"},{"start":771.673,"end":794.402,"text":"好我在這裡要提醒你如果沒有規劃的話我想你們的社會住宅的政策也會跟你們的這個租金補貼政策目前為止我們在中央的興建速度是還算可以但是地方已經都沒有那麼快了沒問題部長這個院長你的部長非常有信心所以我這裡也準備了一個承諾支票我想你願不願意簽下這張承諾支票宣誓賴清德總統一定會達到這個25萬戶的決心"},{"start":796.496,"end":797.777,"text":"我這裡寫了25萬戶就是依照你們的50萬、25萬、25萬"},{"start":804.878,"end":831.414,"text":"可以嗎 你們可以簽嗎 院長在113年底希望能夠達到20萬戶 那就現在為止這個 院長你願不願意簽這個承諾資料 經過宿宅以及社宅有18萬戶我覺得政府的政策是用在我們的施政報告跟預算書上面來呈現的而不是用一種簽名的方式 過去到現在都是這樣在進行所以換言之就是 院長你沒辦法保證你可以 你會達標你可能會跳票的意思"},{"start":832.13,"end":846.345,"text":"那個簽名對我們政策的推動沒有任何的特別意義原來我們的院長完全不敢為賴清德的承諾背書啊所謂一百萬戶的社宅海峽海然後二十五萬戶可不可以蓋成你這樣的直接的說法我覺得這樣會變口號之國啦"},{"start":849.408,"end":873.747,"text":"對總統的政見在全力的推動這是我們對政策的負責好 院長我在這裡就是要代表關心居住正義的年輕人想要問你願不願意簽這個承諾所以你現在是不願意簽 對不對我們在政策上已經講得很清楚我們往這個方向一直在努力好 所以你就是不願意簽 沒問題我想這真的令人非常的遺憾你們民進黨的政府在居住正義上面負了年輕人"},{"start":874.795,"end":886.185,"text":"委員如果您真正關心的租金補貼的部分的話其實我們過去兩年租金補貼在青年的上面滿意度是70%以上的我沒有說你租金補貼怎麼樣我是說你的政策目標沒有達成"},{"start":887.145,"end":903.077,"text":"租金補貼拿到錢大家當然都很快樂阿但是你的黑市問題沒解決阿所以你現在還要在這邊忙院長最後我聊聊居住正義三件喔你們剛剛的三件我都清楚所以你一直在這邊兜數字你根本是在瞎扯淡我明明就說50萬戶你們租住補貼到了66萬戶可是你的黑市問題沒有解決"},{"start":909.585,"end":931.757,"text":"您現在講的是一般上面的租屋市場不是我們現在在租金補貼上的補貼對象是政府有責任要給人民可負擔的有保障的多元的居住選擇權利那現在我們居住正義剛剛講了三階段設宅蓋的速度不夠所以現在設宅有限租屋市場不透明也有可能租金也隨著這樣子上漲"},{"start":932.597,"end":948.534,"text":"那房價門檻更高到讓年輕人難以跨越那麼可以看一下我們這個現在的居住正義是這樣看一下我們的簡報社宅租屋到購屋已經完全的失衡了那我想要請問一下有沒有第4種可能性"},{"start":949.893,"end":971.689,"text":"政府目前有沒有在這個土地的盤點除了新建設宅之外有沒有另外一種去思考一種中間型的住宅方案另外半永久式的或是類似這樣青年可負擔宅的規劃類似像新加坡的主屋的模式同時具備長期居住然後封閉市場封閉市場的條件可負擔的條件請問我們有沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":972.609,"end":990.55,"text":"包括委員其實各種的規劃包括你所說的這個不管是英國的或者是新加坡的我們都有在考慮當中但是在台灣一般人是安土中堅的狀況之下他們當然希望社會住宅住得越久越好變成他們永久的租屋市場不像現在是6年那所以我們也在考慮說除了年輕人以外"},{"start":990.99,"end":993.772,"text":"我想要表達的是我支持這樣的方向那我也希望我剛剛說的多元的可負擔的好不好"},{"start":1012.306,"end":1021.618,"text":"多元可負擔的可以保障的請往這邊方向去推動我自己也做了許多的研究未來有機會希望可以多多交流我們都希望可以推成這件事情"},{"start":1023.783,"end":1045.08,"text":"好所以我還是要講居住正義不是大撒幣的臭數字而已要促進市場透明要完善整體的機制留下一個具體可以長期運作的制度給我們下一代這是我認為的居住正義希望我們未來4年未來的任期可以好好的推動把這個居住正義留給我們的下一代讓他們可以住得起房好不好好再來"},{"start":1046.874,"end":1073.852,"text":"院長最近有很多民眾喔收到電價調漲的電費單不僅一般住戶抱怨甚至南台灣有串燒店因為抱怨店裡的電費破紀錄創新高真是謝了綠色是最噁心的顏色然後這個電價就被出征了請問院長電價高漲是事實但是現在連老百姓抱怨都被出征你不覺得很恐怖嗎院長我是覺得啊年年漲電價是一件非常恐怖的事情喔"},{"start":1074.688,"end":1099.659,"text":"老百姓跟店家的抱怨其實都不是沒有道理你可以知道我們的民生用電已經連續3年調漲已經累計漲了30.4%工業用電已經連續3次調漲再加上昨天第4波已經來到了66.27%所以你的官邸有公務預算可以出但是國內的這些產業用電可是要列為成本"},{"start":1100.7,"end":1122.037,"text":"那三年漲了66.27%請問有多少產業扛得住啊 院長我們這次對電價的討論電價審議委員會在討論過程當中 我知道他們把握原則叫反映成本我們必須讓台電的成本適度反映出來所以這個是接近成本的一個計算現在民生電價連三漲 百姓苦哈哈工業電價連四漲 產業慘兮兮"},{"start":1130.023,"end":1147.337,"text":"但是這3年在漲電價的同時我們經濟部也在全年已經增資台電1500億去年易後特別條例預算又撥補了500億6月的時候經濟部呢又增資台電1000億已經補貼3000億了現在又希望立法院通過"},{"start":1149.379,"end":1160.771,"text":"這個2000億的補貼預算總共加起來是5000億這5000億台電左手跟人民漲電價右手拿人民的納給政府的稅金5000億的補貼全部都是老百姓的錢"},{"start":1161.598,"end":1190.364,"text":"那現在你們嘴巴上說尊重立法院的決定但是一邊漲電價一邊又要立法院通過這些預算補貼台電我想這看起來在老百姓的眼裡這不只是情緒勒索應該是真的在勒索那當然經濟部昨天有說這次調漲電價有兩個原則您剛剛有說到的一個是照顧民生穩定電價穩定物價另外一個是兼顧產業競爭力但是有學者就說這是大家經濟部在自己騙自己"},{"start":1191.277,"end":1219.889,"text":"因為這次的調漲生產成本會再度上升很難消弭民眾聽好囉民眾對於物價上漲的預期心理再者所謂兼顧這個產業競爭力連33會的這個林柏峰會長也就是說這次漲價會導致企業獲利減少大概5%廠商可能會外移或關廠進而影響勞動市場接下來無薪假裁員的情況會更多院長你能保證明年不再漲電價嗎我想要問這個"},{"start":1222.83,"end":1246.361,"text":"今年我們是看到因為戰爭之後原物料的上漲所以我們在取得的成本上面經過核實的計算讓工業用戶比較大戶的這個用電戶能夠在反映成本跟使用者付費的原則底下是這個電價審議委員會通過這樣的原則現在能源政策就是成本太高嘛對不對好可是你願不願意承諾明年不會漲電價院長"},{"start":1248.786,"end":1270.696,"text":"報告委員我們這次漲的電價請回答我可不可以保證沒關係請回答我可不可以保證你們剛剛講的這些我昨天都有看我知道我們的CPI影響只有0.03%所以你講說會造成什麼樣的經濟波動我們認為這個是都計算過的院長健保費都可以保障明年不漲我們電費可以保障嗎不敢講"},{"start":1272.332,"end":1289.621,"text":"我也不能保證明年軍工價會不會調漲因為這要橫估很多的社會經濟條件我們必須在這個平衡底下才能來做一個決定不是現在還預估明年漲不漲所以沒關係就是不能夠保證嘛 對不對所以我們才可以進一步來討論更保證太廉價也沒有意義啊"},{"start":1290.161,"end":1313.217,"text":"所以我們進一步來討論賴總統推動的五大信賴產業大概全數都是少數高毛利的電子產業或許還可以稱可是大部分的傳產包括在地方上已經有很多的中小企業工具機產業、旅宿業者甚至媒體也都報導電價再漲下去年底可能會倒一片恐怕會有一片停業潮這些業主還自嘲自己就是不受信賴產業"},{"start":1314.558,"end":1326.437,"text":"這就是這段時間人民的心聲我幫大家反映出來然後呢現在工廠公司停業人民失業然後老百姓抱怨一下就要被出征這樣子合理嗎"},{"start":1327.628,"end":1354.348,"text":"所以你剛剛有說要穩定民生所以民生電價不漲我認同那工業電價漲12.5%到現在漲了累積漲了66.27然後你昨天說剛剛我們部長有說衝擊到0.03%對不對所以我剛剛有說這是你們算出來那你有沒有算到這個我剛剛已經講過的經濟學裡面有人學者就提出民眾會有漲價的預期心理那這部分要怎麼處理這是第一件事"},{"start":1355.329,"end":1369.048,"text":"況且更多的官方數據統計都是低估的更何況0.03你目前是指今年那請問到明年呢明年你可以敢說到明年這個時間不會超過0.03嗎對不對還是我們就到明年來看看到底是不是0.03"},{"start":1371.599,"end":1388.418,"text":"報告委員 我想我們這一次你剛才在指導的說這個小企業或者是中型的企業比較艱苦的這個企業我們會有兩個方式來幫助他們一個就是推動我們的AI另外一個就推動低碳化"},{"start":1388.979,"end":1389.119,"text":"廖偉翔"},{"start":1408.64,"end":1432.314,"text":"對我們來講那這個部分可不可以請你會後提供報告給我因為的確我認同這個方向我沒有不認同我覺得這個方向是對的但是我還是在跟你討論電價的問題和能源政策的問題因為目前為止你急因為你這個東西你剛剛講的那些東西是需要時間累積的好所以現在簡單來講短時間內漲這些東西會導致一些企業出走或是倒閉好那我你們有估算過嗎"},{"start":1434.209,"end":1442.077,"text":"我給你們看一個數據這是投審會的數據官方資料我國對外投資從99億美金大增到235.7億美金漲幅達2.38倍那外國人願意來台投資的從133億美金掉到112億一來一回大概就是淨流出123.7億美金"},{"start":1458.749,"end":1474.511,"text":"那這些數據就是活生生的代表現在就是的確很多的產業在往海外去設廠因為他擔心台灣任何的不穩定所以逼著他出去那基本上他們現在的狀況就只能面臨兩條路一要嘛我收掉賣掉"},{"start":1475.592,"end":1475.892,"text":"掌電價的調整"},{"start":1497.841,"end":1500.663,"text":"對於臺電的營運財務的健全有幫忙 漲電價同時我們也會透過經濟部的這個節約用電的團隊去幫各個大戶"},{"start":1510.998,"end":1511.298,"text":"我們就是發展綠能"},{"start":1538.766,"end":1564.736,"text":"而且能夠多方面的引進新的能源的總概念用天然氣來做橋接對行政院合併的能源發展綱領是2017年4月版也就是說這個綱領有8年沒有修正你覺得這樣合理嗎像日本我記得是3年就檢討一次另外對阿這個沒有更新阿院長你怎麼說還是你覺得8年前到現在都適用8年前沒有發生惡霧戰爭喔"},{"start":1565.919,"end":1577.551,"text":"我們現在很多的世界大廠來台灣設廠都指定要用綠電那我們如果沒有發展這個綠電的話我們跟世界接不上門我們現在發展的方向是對的我們過去的發展方向是對的"},{"start":1588.983,"end":1599.801,"text":"但因應這個情勢要隨時激動作討論我想我們都會進行那院長我在問經濟部已經編列了60億的核酸除疫費用所以代表明年你們就確定完全排除核能這個選項嗎"},{"start":1602.93,"end":1631.945,"text":"是嗎核能的部分我們是這樣的就是說先先把這個預算編列因為站到目前的這個法令他還是要要下載所以你還是模糊不清當渣男講不清楚到底要還是不要因為委員你這句話有修正的必要我們不是渣男我是說在能源政策上面要不要不講清楚就說我先編了然後到時候再看狀況因為這個是法令的規定我們一定要編"},{"start":1633.376,"end":1639.221,"text":"如果法令可以解掉我們就不編了所以你不是說一定要把河山廠廢除囉這個當然是可以討論的議題"},{"start":1642.865,"end":1664.821,"text":"所以你還是沒有確定嘛是不是你只要回答我這件事不是確定的問題這個是在法令的框架之下我們現在沒有辦法回答你我想這個大家都很關心啦其實你以前也有說過河山藏醫藥機已經除役那目前我們沒有一個重新啟動的法源可以來做所以目前無法討論所以有的話你們願意重啟嗎"},{"start":1665.578,"end":1687.666,"text":"那這個要經過社會的討論我們就是說和安和廢跟社會共識是必要三個條件同時存在跟我們產業政策和環境政策影響所及非常的多陳一髮動全身剛剛討論那基本上還是一樣錯誤的能源配比那在這個能源和產業的關係上造成這個供電不穩進而降低廠商的競爭力那我想連黃仁勳也說過語重心長"},{"start":1690.067,"end":1707.397,"text":"穩定供電是台灣最大的挑戰要發展AI對嘛你們也都這樣想嘛所以謝謝其實我很喜歡我看到你們這樣點頭我覺得我是認同可是為什麼不敢做呢但是世界的大廠也紛紛要來台灣可是委員剛剛的時局到現在好像我們產業一直往外走外國不進來我們的物價一直在上升"},{"start":1709.838,"end":1711.921,"text":"那個數字基本上是台積電到美國的這個數據所以它增加出來了"},{"start":1726.997,"end":1753.168,"text":"所以台積電也去設廠了嘛那也是總經理是外移嘛對不對所以阿他就是因為外國的這個要求那除了供電不穩之外電價也連山漲喔所以我想喔這還是會有某種程度的會帶動我們的通貨膨脹會導致百化文就是錠毛效果阿會讓我們物價回不去喔因為你接下來你也不能保證未來要不要再漲嘛因為你說還沒有辦法還沒有辦法到達成本嘛所以我們今天要講的是攤販集中市場"},{"start":1755.666,"end":1757.929,"text":"主要的投手這個核電燃煤燃氣"},{"start":1774.289,"end":1791.542,"text":"都是主要先發投手像中繼後援的像水力風力太陽能這種就是一個一個釋出只剩下救援投手表現不穩定那如果你是球隊總經理那這樣子的配比你怎麼打比賽啊被迫那到時候還沒有考量到國安問題50%的燃氣我們被封鎖了怎麼辦"},{"start":1792.583,"end":1817.597,"text":"好 因為我時間不多 我就先講 我就是要跟你表達這件事情你們的能源政策如果在配比上 不認真的 務實的去檢討你們就是打假球 打假球為什麼還要打因為後面有利益 有財團 是不是在護航誰 這就是民眾的疑問這就是說為了堅持錯誤能源政策 會讓民眾覺得說你是不是就為了貪腐最後我還是想要問 廖委員現在政府對於能源政策不會拿來"},{"start":1818.958,"end":1822.281,"text":"在偏袒哪一個團體哪一個哪一些人不會這樣做你放心謝謝廖委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:59:26 - 16:30:08","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155048","gazette":{"lineno":1407,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（15時59分）主席，有請卓榮泰院長及國防部顧立雄部長。"],["主席：請卓院長還有顧部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長、部長好，今天我有準備兩個禮物，要請顧立雄部長收下。第一個，我們臺灣是蘭花大國，最近南部的鄉親種出了新品種的蘭花，非常的美，叫做「賴清德蘭」，但由於剛出品，我還買不到，所以我就先買了一盆蘭花代替，要先向國防部長致意、送給我們的部長，未來等到我買到「賴清德蘭」的時候，我會再送一盆「賴清德蘭」到部長的辦公室。另外，我相信我們國軍弟兄是最注重禮節的，雙十節要到了，我也要送一面國旗給我們的國軍弟兄，感謝他們為中華民國付出、保家衛國，也請部長代收，我要說一聲：「國軍弟兄辛苦了，部長也辛苦了。」"],["顧部長立雄：哪裡。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，院長、部長，我想要請問一下，川普有說臺灣的國防預算應該要占GDP的10%，請教一下院長，萬一川普當選了，你們會配合他嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：國防預算是依照我們國家之需要，就保衛國家安全，那麼我們會就需要的方面來編列相關的預算，絕不是要依附或者是去滿足哪一個數字，這個對我們來講毫無意義。"],["廖委員偉翔：那萬一他當選，要求臺灣要做到，我們會有辦法嗎？還是會說我們做不到？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣身為世界民主夥伴國家友好的朋友之一，我們當然有責任要防衛自己的安全，臺海乃至於印太的安全，我們會負起這個責任，但這個是從我們本位做出發的基本的國防要求。"],["廖委員偉翔：換言之就是說不會聽他的嘛！好，院長，那我們是不是就不會聽他的？不會因為他講一句話就要做這件事。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們聽我們的以及聽我們的三軍統帥跟國防部的規劃。"],["廖委員偉翔：三軍統帥，好。我們明年國防預算已經上看6,740億，已經占GDP的2.45%，所以現在川普的說法要求我們到10%的話，等於是國防預算要達到2兆7。我在這裡還有包含剛剛送這些東西，就是也要呼籲賴清德總統，大國以仁、小國以智，希望我們的賴總統、我們的三軍統帥可以有智慧的帶領我們中華民國和平穩定的發展，千萬不要變成「清德斯基」喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員放心，這個不僅是國策，也是總統率領國家的重要方向。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝我們的顧部長，可以回座了。","卓院長，賴清德總統上任前宣示要做100萬戶的社會住宅，其中50萬戶是租金補貼、25萬戶是社會住宅、25萬戶是包租代管的三大方向。先談租金補貼的部分，我想請教院長，目前內政部使用了不設籍、不追稅、不查稅的方式，現在總共核准了將近66萬戶……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：今年補助、補貼的金額也超過了265億，所以我是想要問一下院長，現在這樣子是不是代表你們要跟國人報告，你們百萬戶的社會住宅政策在賴清德上任半年就已經達成了66萬戶，對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是租屋補貼的部分，另外我們還繼續在包租代管跟直接興建的過程當中做各項的努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以意思就是說賴清德上任半年已經達成超過50萬戶的社會住宅，是這樣的意思嘛！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：在百萬戶家庭扶助計畫裡面的三支箭，第三支箭確實是已經達到。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以意思就是說你們已經達標，而且還超標了66萬戶？"],["劉部長世芳：第三支箭的部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。不過我想要先請院長看看國土署當初發布的新聞稿，有關300億的中央擴大租金補貼專案，你們國土署的新聞稿怎麼寫的？當初這個300億的中央擴大補貼方案就是希望掌握市場上大量有效的租約資訊，將透過定期統計公開達成租屋市場透明化。我想請問你們目前有掌握租屋黑市的狀況嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想這個部分大概也是相對很多委員希望知道的，不管是租金補貼或是包租代管……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以是沒有，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：有，我們有，我們透過地政資料，現在慢慢的把去識別化的狀態按照縣市地方政府……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以現在是沒有嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：有。"],["廖委員偉翔：我發文問過，你們回我說沒有。"],["劉部長世芳：按照地區有公布出來相關租金補貼的狀況，但是它是一個區塊的方式，而不是一個一個。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那我等一下給你看，我想請教院長，你們本來說2025年1月份要公布資料，但是看一下現階段的資訊，根據內政部不動產交易實價查詢服務網，就會發現租賃查詢的實價登錄總共大概只有10.5萬戶，而領補助的戶數跟剛剛說的66萬戶相差了將近55萬戶，這就是現在我們臺灣租屋黑市的現況啊！請問院長，你對於這樣的成績滿意嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：委員，你說法的基準不太一樣，我剛剛跟您報告的是現在領取租金補貼的總共有六十幾萬戶，這些部分在我們地政司裡面都有相關的資料，但是我們已經把它去識別化以後按照地區公布，而且放在我們官網上面。"],["廖委員偉翔：你是說像剛剛我說的中央的網站，不是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們放在內政部的官網裡面。"],["廖委員偉翔：那為什麼我去文的時候，你跟我說沒有、這不是你們的業務？要不要看一下那個公文？「租屋黑數研究及統計非本署業管統計權責，無資料提供。」，你剛剛還說有，下面這就是你們回我的公文啊！"],["劉部長世芳：您現在講的租屋黑數部分，第一個，大概他不是找官方的包租代管或者是經過我們土地租金跟官方申請的部分，有些是個別的部分……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，所以你說66萬戶都有掌握，是這樣嗎？你可以說66萬……"],["劉部長世芳：是的，因為他們有申請租金補貼的話，我們就知道他大概是誰。"],["廖委員偉翔：你都知道在哪裡？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：你都知道每個位置在哪裡，然後這個屋主是誰？"],["劉部長世芳：大致上知道。"],["廖委員偉翔：那為什麼沒有實價登錄上去？"],["劉部長世芳：實價登錄？沒有，我剛剛跟委員報告的部分，它是一個區塊的方式，而不是……"],["廖委員偉翔：區塊的方式？那我給你看……"],["劉部長世芳：實價登錄只有在我們買賣房地產上面才會有。"],["廖委員偉翔：租屋的實價登錄……我剛剛有說……"],["劉部長世芳：租金。"],["廖委員偉翔：內政部有不動產租金的部分……好，現在我給你看你剛剛說區塊的部分，現在內政部公開透明的方式就是一個區一個中位數，院長請你看，一個區一個中位數，也不知道有沒有電梯、不知道房屋種類、不知道屋齡，連幾坪都不知道，只有把25分位、50分位、75分位公布出來，光看這資料我可不可以說臺北市的房租比新北市還要便宜？這樣合理嗎？所以我要講的事情……你再辯也沒用啦！連立法院的預算中心都已經明確指出，我國多數的租屋案件未納入實價登錄，對眾多租屋人口權益保障恐有欠完備，推動租屋市場價格透明化容待精進。我想「容待精進」這4個字都講得很客氣了啦！所以院長，這樣擴大租金補貼的專案從2022年到2025年預估多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長在跟委員報告的過程，112年有效租約的案件大概75%我們都有掌握到它的資訊，那麼在租金透明化的過程當中……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，院長，我現在跳下一題。"],["卓院長榮泰：是集中在大學周邊以及每個行政區，我們先做大規模、大街廓、大區域這樣的公布。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以請問2022到2025預估要補貼發出多少錢？"],["劉部長世芳：按照我們現在114年要求行政院補助的部分，大概是有200億左右。"],["廖委員偉翔：為什麼這邊的數字……200億應該是今年，對不對？我說2022到2025預估……"],["劉部長世芳：我現在說的是114年的部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以我說2022到2025預估總共要多少？"],["劉部長世芳：2022開始到現在為止……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，到2025。"],["劉部長世芳：這個比較少一點，大概也是……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我跟你說，大概804億啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：加起來。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，那是加總的部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，就是加總，我剛剛就是說加總。"],["卓院長榮泰：4年加總。"],["廖委員偉翔：對不對？我就是說加總嘛！我說2022到2025，對吧？至於國家住都中心興建4年的社宅加總工程費用多少？大概872億啊！我們可以看到租金補貼政策的經費已經逼近我們興建社宅的經費，況且全世界也沒有人會把租金補貼當成社宅來認定，連審計部……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，租金補貼的部分在住宅法裡面確實有明列進去，所以我們認為租金補貼也算是住宅法可以執行的一部分……"],["廖委員偉翔：等一下，抱歉，部長，我還沒問你喔！我剛剛已經說50萬戶我也算進去，我只是把全世界沒有人這樣講的補進去而已。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以連審計部111年的決算報告都曾經指出問題，直接寫租賃市場產生租屋黑市或地下化的問題，所以導致中央地方機關雖然積極推動租金補貼等協助措施，卻無法確實發揮效益。也就是說現在黑市不解決，補助就沒有辦法實質發揮效益，甚至還發生溢領的狀況，發生溢領一億多喔！那請問賴清德居住正義補貼50萬戶是為了湊數字呢？還是要促進租屋市場透明？院長，我要講的是新青安政策也是狂撒幣，但是撒下去之後就出問題了。院長，我也很擔憂你的租金補貼政策會不會跟新青安一樣，為了達到居住正義的目的，反而手段不正義，欠缺通盤規劃，導致我們國家的住宅政策一團混亂？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是百萬租屋家庭支持計畫方案的一部分……"],["廖委員偉翔：當然，我們後面還要討論社宅……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們設定它是50萬戶，現在因為市場反映大家的需求，所以到六十幾萬戶……"],["廖委員偉翔：報告院長，這三個方向我都很清楚，我繼續問……"],["卓院長榮泰：未來我們也希望不要它再毫無限制的一直往上增加，我們重點還是要放在直接興建跟包租代管。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝，你要直接興建和包租代管嘛，好，我們現在講興建社宅的部分。請教院長，賴清德總統說要蓋25萬戶社宅，目前由中央興建完工並且已經可以招租的才總共4,767戶……"],["劉部長世芳：三萬多戶。"],["廖委員偉翔：扣掉……這是完工已經可以供招租的喔！"],["劉部長世芳：三萬多戶。"],["廖委員偉翔：這是你們網路上的數字喔！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，是三萬多戶。"],["廖委員偉翔：你說三萬多戶是可以出租的？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，全臺灣……"],["廖委員偉翔：已經出去了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：已經有的，像林口的話，幾乎都是滿租的狀況。"],["廖委員偉翔：三萬多戶是包括地方政府，我現在講的是中央政府興建且完工的喔！你要講清楚，你要看一下數字嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，你們興建完工而且可以招租的，扣掉林口選手村的話，其實也才一千八百多戶，你現在說的沒錯，中央有在興建中，可是我講的是完工的，並且已經可以供招租。蔡英文8年加上賴清德半年總共不到兩千戶的成績，人民要怎麼相信你8年內能蓋完25萬戶？所以我想問一下，現在住都中心接下來要蓋多少戶？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們希望中央跟地方一起努力，到2032年之前可以完成25萬戶。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你的25萬戶不是只有中央興建，是要把地方都納進來，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：因為我們當時在協調地方時，中央的國土署也有協助。"],["廖委員偉翔：我也想問你，我也查了你們的資料，截至今年5月，你們盤點總計219處的土地，總共只有七萬一千多戶，你們盤點的土地只有七萬多戶，剩下的十八萬戶要蓋在哪？是要填海造陸嗎？現在夠了嗎？盤點地方的這些土地夠嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，跟委員報告，我們現在當然在盤點土地當中，而且希望能夠有多元的管道，我們希望透過每個縣市地方政府的都市計畫，在未來做區段徵收時釋放出3%到5%的土地供我們興建社會住宅。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我在這裡要提醒你，如果沒有規劃的話，我想你們的社會住宅政策也會跟租金補貼政策一樣，兜數字畫大餅……"],["劉部長世芳：目前為止，我們在中央的興建速度還算可以，但是地方已經都沒有那麼快了。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒問題，院長，你的部長非常有信心，所以我這裡也準備了一個承諾支票，你願不願意簽下這張承諾支票，宣示賴清德總統一定會達到25萬戶的決心？"],["劉部長世芳：如果100萬戶的話，我想不是住宅，就是百萬租屋……"],["廖委員偉翔：我這裡寫了25萬戶，就是依照你們的50萬，25萬、25萬，可以嗎？你們可以簽嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在113年底希望能夠達到20萬戶，到現在為止，社宅有18萬戶……"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，你願不願意簽這個承諾支票？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得政府的政策是用在施政報告跟預算書上面來呈現的，而不是用一種簽名的方式，過去到現在都是這樣進行。"],["廖委員偉翔：換言之就是院長你沒辦法保證你會達標，你可能會跳票的意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：那張是……那個簽名……"],["劉部長世芳：這沒有意義啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對我們政策的推動沒有任何特別的意義……"],["廖委員偉翔：原來我們的院長完全不敢為賴清德的承諾背書啊！所謂100萬戶的社宅，25萬戶可不可以蓋成？"],["卓院長榮泰：你這樣直接的說法是您的想法啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得這樣會變口號之國啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對於總統的政見我們在全力的推動，這是我們對政策的負責。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我在這裡就是要代表關心居住正義的年輕人，想要問你願不願意簽這個承諾，所以你現在不願意簽，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在政策上已經講得很清楚，我們往這個方向一直在努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以你就是不願意簽，沒問題。我想這真的令人非常的遺憾，你們民進黨政府在居住正義上面負了年輕人。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，如果您真正關心租金補貼的話，其實我們過去兩年租金補貼在青年滿意度是70%以上……"],["廖委員偉翔：我沒有說租金補貼怎麼樣，我是說你的政策目標沒有達成……"],["劉部長世芳：現在時間還沒有到啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：租金補貼拿到錢，大家當然都很快樂啊！但是黑市問題沒解決啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一直在努力進行當中。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，院長，最後我聊聊居住正義三箭，你們剛剛的三箭我都清楚，所以你一直在那邊兜數字，你根本是在瞎扯淡，我明明就說……"],["劉部長世芳：不是，委員可能您誤解了……"],["廖委員偉翔：不是，我明明就說50萬戶，你們租屋補貼到66萬戶，可是黑市問題沒有解決……"],["劉部長世芳：您現在講的是一般的租屋市場，不是我們現在租金補貼上的補貼對象。"],["廖委員偉翔：我們現在討論的居住正義是政府有責任要給人民可負擔的、有保障的、多元的居住選擇權利，我們剛剛講的居住正義三階段，社宅蓋的速度不夠，所以現在社宅有限；租屋市場不透明，租金也有可能隨著這樣來上漲；房價門檻更高到讓年輕人難以跨越。大家可以看一下我們的簡報，現在的居住正義是這樣的，社宅、租屋到購屋已經是完全失衡了。我想要請問一下，有沒有第四種可能性？政府目前在土地的盤點上，除了興建社宅之外，有沒有思考另外一種中間型的住宅方案？包括半永久式的或者是類似青年可負擔宅的規劃，就是類似新加坡組屋的模式，同時具備長期居住，然後封閉市場可負擔的條件，請問我們有沒有這樣的規劃？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，其實各種的規劃，包括你所說的，不管是英國的或者是新加坡的，我們都有在考慮當中，但是在臺灣，一般人是安土重遷的狀況之下，他們當然希望社會住宅能夠住得越久越好、變成他們永久的租屋市場，不像現在是6年。所以我們也在考慮，除了年輕人以外，包括中高齡的老齡人口所需要的社會住宅也都需要考慮在內。"],["廖委員偉翔：對。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們希望中央政府跟地方政府都要一起努力，但是現在很不樂見的就是地方政府願意釋放出的土地比較少。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，謝謝你，我想要表達的是，我支持這樣的方向。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：我也希望剛才說的，多元的、可負擔的、可以保障的，然後請往這些方向去推動。"],["劉部長世芳：我們有在考慮，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：我自己也做了許多研究，未來有機會也希望可以多多交流，我們都希望可以推成這件事情，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：我還是要講，居住正義不是大撒幣的湊數字而已，要促進市場透明，要完善整體的機制，留下一個可以具體、可以長期運作的制度給我們的下一代，這是我認為的居住正義，希望我們未來的4年或未來的任期可以好好的推動，把這個居住正義留給我們的下一代，讓他們可以住得起房，好不好？","再來，最近有很多民眾收到電價調漲的電費單，不僅一般住戶抱怨，甚至南臺灣有串燒店因為抱怨店裡「電費破紀錄、創新高，真是謝了」、「綠色是最噁心的顏色」，然後這個店家就被出征了。請問院長，電價高漲是事實，但是現在連老百姓抱怨都會被出征，你不覺得很恐怖嗎？院長，我是覺得，年年漲電價是一件非常恐怖的事情，老百姓跟店家的抱怨其實不是沒有道理，你也知道我們的民生用電已經連續3年調漲，累計已經漲了30.4%；工業用電已經連續三次調漲，再加上昨天的第四波，就已經來到了66.27%，你的官邸有公務預算可以支應，但是國內這些產業用電可是要列為成本的，3年漲了66.27%，請問院長，有多少產業扛得住啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：這次電價審議委員會在討論的過程當中，我知道他們把握的一個原則，就是反映成本……"],["廖委員偉翔：有，你提的這個我昨天都看了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們必須讓台電的成本適度地反映出來，所以這個是接近成本的一個計算。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我要跟您反映，現在民生電價連三漲，百姓苦哈哈；工業電價連四漲，產業慘兮兮。但是這三年漲電價的同時，我們經濟部也已在前年增資台電1,500億；去年疫後特別條例預算又撥補了500億；6月的時候，經濟部又增資台電1,000億，這樣一來就已經補貼3,000億了；現在又希望立法院通過2,000億的補貼預算，加起來總共是5,000億，台電左手跟人民漲電價，右手拿人民納給政府的稅金，5,000億的補貼全部都是老百姓的錢。現在你們嘴巴上說尊重立法院的決定，但是一邊漲電價，一邊又要立法院通過這些預算來補貼台電，看在老百姓的眼裡，這不只是情緒勒索，應該是真的在勒索！","經濟部昨天有說，這次調漲電價有兩個原則，就是你剛剛有說到的，一個是照顧民生、穩定電價、穩定物價；另外一個是兼顧產業競爭力。但是有學者就說，這是經濟部自己在騙自己，因為這一次的調漲，生產成本會再度上升，很難消弭民眾對於物價上漲的預期心理。再者，所謂兼顧產業競爭力，連三三會的林伯豐會長也都說這次漲價會導致企業獲利減少大概5%；廠商可能會外移或關廠，進而影響勞動市場；接下來無薪假、裁員的情況會更多。院長，你能保證明年不再漲電價嗎？我想問的是這個。"],["卓院長榮泰：今年我們看到戰爭之後原物料上漲，所以在取得成本上，經過核實計算與使用者付費的原則下，讓工業用戶、比較大的用電戶能夠反映成本，這是電價審議委員會通過的原則。"],["廖委員偉翔：現在的能源政策問題就是成本太高，對不對？您願不願意承諾明年不會漲電價，院長？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們這次所漲的電價，經過計算……"],["廖委員偉翔：請回答我，可不可以保證？沒關係，請回答我可不可以保證？你們剛剛講的這些我昨天都有看，我知道，請問明年可以保證不漲電價嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對我們CPI的影響只有0.03%，所以講說會造成什麼樣的經濟波動，但我們認為這個都是計算過的。"],["廖委員偉翔：有關0.03%這點等一下再講。院長，既然健保費可以保障明年不漲，請問電費可以保障嗎？不敢講？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也不能保證明年軍公教會不會調漲，因為這要衡酌很多的社會經濟條件，我們必須……"],["廖委員偉翔：我們現在是在討論能源政策……"],["卓院長榮泰：在權衡之下才能做決定，不是現在就在預估明年漲不漲。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以沒關係，就是不能夠保證，對不對？也因此我們才要靜下來進一步討論……"],["卓院長榮泰：這種保證太廉價，也沒有意義。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以我們進一步來討論。賴總統所推動的五大信賴產業，大概少數高毛利的電子產業或許還可以撐，可是大部分的傳產，譬如地方上很多的中小企業、工具機產業、旅宿業者，甚至媒體也報導，電價再漲下去，年底可能會倒一片，恐怕會有一波停業潮。這些業主還自嘲，自己就是不受信賴產業，這就是這段時間人民的心聲，我幫大家反映出來。現在工廠、公司停業，人民失業，但是老百姓抱怨一下就要被出征，這樣合理嗎？你剛剛有說要穩定民生所以民生電價不漲，這點我認同。不過工業電價漲12.5%，累積到現在已經漲了66.27%，然後你昨天說、剛剛部長也有說，衝擊為0.03%，對不對？我剛剛說這是你們算出來的，可是你有沒有算到我剛剛已經講過的，也就是《經濟學人》中學者所提出，民眾會有漲價的預期心理，請問這部分要怎麼處理？這是第一件事。況且很多官方數據統計都是低估的，何況0.03%指的是今年，請問到明年呢？你敢說到明年這個時間不會超過0.03%，對不對？還是我們就等到明年再來看看到底是不是0.03%？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想我們這一次……您剛才指導小企業或中型企業、比較艱苦的企業，我們會有兩個方式來幫助他們，一個就是推動AI；另外一個就是推動低碳化。也就是說我們會做深度的節能，而深度節能大概可以幫助降低7%的用電，我想用這個方法來提升他們的競爭力，如此才會有辦法走向競爭的環境。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長，這是另外一件事……"],["郭部長智輝：如果光在電價補助，這個對我們來講……"],["廖委員偉翔：這部分可不可以請你會後提供報告給我？的確，我認同這個方向，我沒有不認同，我覺得這個方向是對的，但我討論的還是電價問題和能源政策問題，畢竟你剛剛所講那些東西是需要時間累積的。簡單來講，短時間內漲這些東西會導致一些企業出走或倒閉，請問你們有估算過嗎？我給你們看一個數據，這是投審會的數據、官方資料。我國對外投資從99億美金大增到235.7億美金，漲幅達2.38倍；至於外國人願意來臺投資的，從133億美金掉到112億，一來一回大概淨流出123.7億美金。這些數據活生生代表現在的確有很多產業往海外設廠，因為他擔心臺灣任何的不穩定，所以逼著他出去。基本上他們現在的狀況就是面臨兩條路：要嘛我收掉、賣掉；第二個就是出國，可以到別的國家投資。不過這也代表了資金與人才的出走，所以我是在表達我的憂慮！數據會說話，這數據就是很簡單又很明白的數據，我希望說……對於漲電價，我最後還是要問：漲電價有解決根本問題嗎？還是只解決台電的財務？"],["卓院長榮泰：電價調整對於台電的營運、財務的健全有幫忙；在漲電價的同時，我們也會透過經濟部節約用電團隊去幫各個用電大戶來執行他的節約用電，這是降低他的成本。剛剛你所說的穩定物價，這次對住宅、小商店都沒有增加他的負擔，民生內需也沒有增加負擔。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我就歸根結柢，這些問題原因還是出在能源政策啦，外界就批評說我們是錯誤能源政策，想請教院長，我更想請教的就是我們有能源政策嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就是發展綠能，而且能夠多方面的引進新的能源的概念……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，院長，我給你看一個資料，你們行政院……"],["卓院長榮泰：用天然氣來做橋接，這是我們一貫的……"],["廖委員偉翔：行政院核定的能源發展綱領是2017年4月版，也就是說這個綱領有8年沒有修正了，你覺得這樣合理嗎？像日本，我記得是3年就檢討一次，對啊，這個沒有更新啊，院長，你怎麼說？還是你覺得8年前到現在都適用？8年前沒有發生俄烏戰爭喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：現在很多世界大廠來臺灣設廠都指定要用綠電，我們如果……"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，這兩件事！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果沒有發展綠電的話，我們跟世界接不上軌。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我沒有說不發展綠電，但我要說的是你的這個發展綱領都沒有更新啊……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在發展的方向是對的。"],["廖委員偉翔：是不是代表新政府還沒有自己的能源政策？還是只是說大家想要綠能，我就要瘋狂蓋，比例到底是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們過去的發展方向是對的，但因應這個情勢要隨時機動做討論，我想我們都會進行。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我再問喔，經濟部已經編列了60億的核三除役費用，所以代表明年你們確定要完全排除核能這個選項嗎？是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：核能的部分，我們是這樣的，就是先把預算編列，因為按照目前的法令，它還是要下載。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你還是模糊不清、當渣男、講不清楚到底要還是不要？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你這句話有修正的必要，我們不是渣男。"],["廖委員偉翔：我是說在能源政策上面要、不要不講清楚，就是說我先編了，然後到時候再看狀況囉！"],["郭部長智輝：因為這個是法令的規定，我們一定要編，如果法令可以解掉，我們就不編了。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你不是一定要把核三廠廢除囉？"],["郭部長智輝：這個當然是可以討論的議題。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你還是沒有確定嘛，是不是？你只要回答我這件事。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，不是確定的問題，這個是在法令……"],["廖委員偉翔：我想大家都很關心啦！"],["郭部長智輝：在法令的框架之下，我們現在沒有辦法回答你這個問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長，我想這個大家都很關心啦，其實你以前也有說過核能有必要嘛……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個跟委員報告，我們核三廠1號機已經除役，目前我們沒有一個重新啟動的法源可以來做，所以目前無法討論這件事。"],["廖委員偉翔：如果有的話，你們願意重啟嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要經過社會的討論，我們的意思是說，核安、核廢跟社會共識是必要三個條件同時存在。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，能源政策跟我們的產業政策和環境政策影響所及非常的多，牽一髮動全身，剛剛討論過了，基本上還是一樣，錯誤的能源配比。在能源和產業的關係上造成供電不穩，進而降低廠商的競爭力，我想連黃仁勳也說過，語重心長啊，穩定供電是臺灣最大的挑戰，要發展AI……"],["卓院長榮泰：我贊成！"],["廖委員偉翔：對嘛，你們也都這樣想嘛，所以謝謝，其實我很喜歡，我看到你們這樣點頭，我覺得是認同的，可是為什麼不敢做呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是世界的大廠也紛紛要來臺灣，可是委員剛剛的質詢到現在，好像我們的產業一直往外走，外國不進來，我們的物價一直……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有，我是用數據講話喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的物價一直在上升，所以你要讓我們把話講清楚，否則就停留在不是很正確的狀態裡面啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：可是我用的數據都拿出來給你看了啊，如果你覺得有疑義，你覺得有更好的數據提供，你可以在會後提供給我。"],["郭部長智輝：那個數字基本上是台積電到美國的數據，所以它增加出來的。"],["廖委員偉翔：台積電也去設廠了嘛，所以總金額也是外移嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對啊，它就是因為外國的邀請啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：除了供電不穩之外，電價也連三漲，所以我想這還是某種程度會帶動我們的通貨膨脹，會導致……白話文就是定錨效果，會讓我們物價回不去，因為接下來你也不能保證未來要不要再漲嘛，因為你說還沒有辦法到達成本，所以我要講的是錯誤的能源配比……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們今年攤販集中市場、量販店、超商等等這些，都不會去增加他們的負擔，就是要穩定物價最起碼該有的作為。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我的時間有限，我想要講的就是喔，其實現在從整個邏輯看下來，我認為就是你們的能源政策在打假球啦，主要的……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這個樣子！"],["廖委員偉翔：核電、燃煤、燃氣都是主要先發投手，至於中繼、後援的像是水力、風力、太陽能這種就一個一個釋出，只剩下救援投手表現不穩定，如果你是球隊總經理，這樣子的配比你要怎麼打比賽啊？還沒有考量到國安問題，50%的燃氣，如果我們被封鎖了要怎麼辦？因為我的時間不多了，我就是要跟你表達這件事情，你們的能源政策如果在配比上不認真的、務實的去檢討，你們就是打假球！打假球為什麼還要打？因為後面有利益、有財團，是不是在護航誰？這就是民眾的疑問嘛！堅持錯誤的能源政策會讓民眾覺得你是不是就為了貪腐？","最後，我還是想要問，院長，你覺得健保點值0.95……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，現在的政府對於能源政策不會拿來用在偏袒哪一個團體或哪一些人，不會這樣做，你放心。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，健保點值0.95元，你們到底有沒有信心達到？健保點值0.95。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們的目標。"],["廖委員偉翔：有沒有信心？早上你跟邱泰源部長好像彼此不同調。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的目標相同，路徑共同努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以還是沒有辦法保證？"],["卓院長榮泰：一齊努力啦。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137601_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-01","影片長度":"00:15:41","end_time":"2024-10-01T15:47:55+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155047","委員名稱":"林淑芬","duration":941,"start_time":"2024-10-01T15:32:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0c68ad649ac1b3aea892c84eb80a18acfba123520daf760595a9db8e936f736a0506b3dce680f1f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.058468750000003,"end":17.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.27284375,"end":19.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.405968750000003,"end":30.996593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.38471875,"end":32.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.549093750000004,"end":38.134718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.50596875,"end":44.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.90159375,"end":54.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.82409375,"end":64.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.35409375,"end":69.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.77534375,"end":85.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.43534375,"end":88.69221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.79346875,"end":90.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.22346875000001,"end":105.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.14096875000001,"end":108.72284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.07721875,"end":117.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.27409375,"end":120.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.99096875000001,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.20034375,"end":145.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.52721875,"end":159.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.48284375,"end":167.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.05534375000002,"end":215.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.67221875,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.12096875000003,"end":261.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.62721875,"end":268.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.20409375,"end":272.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.39346875,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.01846875,"end":301.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.17784375,"end":305.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.90721875,"end":311.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.10034375000004,"end":315.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.81284375,"end":318.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.37346875000003,"end":323.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.11534375,"end":325.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.03909375,"end":340.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.64221875000004,"end":328.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.65471875000003,"end":330.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.85534375000003,"end":354.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.52846875,"end":373.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.67721875,"end":393.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.21409375,"end":415.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":416.32034375,"end":420.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.66971875,"end":426.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.81659375000004,"end":430.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.62159375000005,"end":435.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.32159375000003,"end":436.70534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.44784375,"end":439.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.70909375,"end":442.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.06721875000005,"end":449.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.58096875,"end":455.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.19596875,"end":457.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":456.71909375,"end":460.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":460.51596875,"end":466.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":466.47284375000004,"end":469.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.58159375,"end":474.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":474.47159375,"end":476.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":476.88471875000005,"end":478.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.65221875000003,"end":483.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.30971875000006,"end":486.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.09409375,"end":495.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":494.29971875,"end":500.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":501.01596875,"end":514.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.3640937499999,"end":519.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":520.20284375,"end":522.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.28721875,"end":524.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","st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各位大家午安 是不是請我們卓院長卓院長請備請林委員好院長"},{"start":32.928,"end":53.76,"text":"最近醫療糾紛的案子大概都沒有辦法進行因為《刑事訴訟法》在去年年底修正了第208條就是說法院或檢察官得主託醫院等機關團體鑑定或審查他人的鑑定而且要具名"},{"start":54.701,"end":69.735,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":69.875,"end":70.596,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":91.56,"end":120.013,"text":"醫省會把來自於檢察機關或司法機關的這些醫療糾紛事故的鑑定大概有300件你知道嗎已經退回這個地檢署有50件代退的有250件我們要講這個是說在這種過程從去年年底修法到現在從實施到現在將近半年了有300件的案件"},{"start":121.273,"end":134.398,"text":"進度是停滯的沒有辦法繼續審理的而且受到醫審會的案件是被退回的沒有退的也即將要被退那整個這個訴訟醫療糾紛的原告或被告整個訴訟的審理程式簡直是無法進行這個對"},{"start":141.32,"end":158.1,"text":"所有的這一些相關的權益影響甚大那這個事情滋事體大不曉得是該怎麼解決而你們今天在這個衛福部衛福部的醫事司有講說他們要把案件全部還給地檢署"},{"start":159.622,"end":181.749,"text":"那第1檢署請自行去尋找願意合作的醫學中心﹚醫師或專科醫學會自己去鑑定我們知道送到醫生會免費﹚送到醫院或者是醫學中心去鑑定是要錢的但是重點也不是在錢的問題而已是現在要具名﹚要具名"},{"start":182.569,"end":205.364,"text":"那衛福部的概念是說要請行政院跟司法機關去溝通轉達醫審會他有為難之處希望規定鑑定人員必須具名這個可以秉除醫師讓醫師安心可是呢我們去看了一下這個整個修法的過程"},{"start":206.465,"end":230.837,"text":"修法的過程裡面當初司法院跟我們的法務部提出這個《刑事訴訟法》第208條的修正其實所指的理由是說即便是機關鑑定也是機關內部的自然人實施鑑定或審查以後再用機關的名義出具書面報告"},{"start":232.458,"end":259.837,"text":"所以機關實施鑑定之自然人應該要準用相關規定除了書面報告以外當然要具名以事負責並立作為判斷其是否具備鑑定事格的依據及擔保鑑定或審查程序的專業性及公正性所以意思是說機關實施鑑定仍然由自然人為之"},{"start":261.778,"end":282.084,"text":"那大家都講說 這個醫生怕訴訟啊 怕跑法院啊 醫生還要上法院這樣子一語帶過 我是覺得啊 欸 司法機關講的有道理可是醫師 大家就一概的以醫師怕上法院為由 來講啊 這衛福部醫生會來這裡的人沒擔當"},{"start":284.785,"end":285.125,"text":"院長 部長 你們覺得呢?"},{"start":312.348,"end":340.34,"text":"鑑定報告是要居民去你比較不會做假還是居民去你比較會做假當時是一個修法的過程鑑定是司法院是希望是以居民的方式負責但是因為我也知道這個因為對我們以送件違建的一個單位來講有沒有居民其實跟整個鑑定的一個結果跟效力是沒有影響的但是最大的一個困難就是"},{"start":341.58,"end":350.016,"text":"如果說這個鑑定的結果有結論的必要的時候要到法庭去接受交互結論那我想這個會造成"},{"start":350.618,"end":372.674,"text":"建定的單位的一個心理上的部長剛剛我已經講了你們修法的時候講的是事實上具名要擔保他的事格而且要擔保他的專業和公正事實上這一點也是問題喔並不是你講說如果有糾紛要上法院而已我現在要講這個是因為站在衛福部的立場衛福部"},{"start":373.715,"end":397.463,"text":"部長你也說一下 為什麼議員會的人會拒絕審這個依舊的案件 為什麼三百件你看相關的權益 這半年來這三百件 三百個當事人他的權益都沒有任何保障 整個訴訟卡在那裡然後都沒有人出來解決 一定沒有人出來解決"},{"start":399.103,"end":419.971,"text":"衛福部退回去﹖然後法務部沒有辦法審理﹖司法機關也看說你自己都沒辦法起訴﹖沒辦法審理﹖跟他沒關係整個修法造成了整個當事人權益這麼的不保怎麼大家都沒有人願意主動出來解決問題"},{"start":421.721,"end":445.698,"text":"我覺得百思不得其解 當事人都放在那 放在那現在就要立委來質詢 看你要不要去改過嗎 是這樣嗎部長 衛福部部長 有什麼困難 講一下是的 報告委員本部已經因為這樣的原因 所以已經邀請司法院召開說明會也轉資司法院問答集 給醫審會的委員 專家及鑑定醫師"},{"start":449.69,"end":465.719,"text":"但是大部分的委員、專家及鑑定醫師表示不願意再參與醫事鑑定沒有人要來鑑定理由是什麼?他們擔心的是什麼?為什麼修了一個法結果造成沒有任何醫事人員、專業的人員願意來接受這個鑑定的這個任務呢?整個這樣可以停擺嗎?當事人權益怎麼辦?"},{"start":479.687,"end":500.435,"text":"我們本來想要修訂這個醫療法的施行細則那個增訂這個醫療鑒定相關資料應以保密不以公開的規定但是那個請教專家以後表示說這個你所說的跟司法機關跟法務部他們認為的剛好是背道而馳的"},{"start":501.115,"end":519.044,"text":"要具名才能具備這個才能夠這個我剛剛念過的齁讓他的鑑定的事格有依據他的專業性和公正性而且保證不造假我剛才跟你問的是要具名才能造假還是不具名才能造假"},{"start":520.256,"end":520.796,"text":"這個問題是鑑定只有具名"},{"start":549.377,"end":571.817,"text":"﹖"},{"start":572.905,"end":596.883,"text":"現在法律就明文規定要具名啦當初修法為什麼院和院之間沒有能夠好好的溝通這樣子硬修下去可行性執行上有沒有困難整個行政部門跟司法部門為什麼大家都沒有溝通然後就一意孤行就通過然後現在造成所有當事人權益受損呢"},{"start":597.563,"end":623.914,"text":"而當事人權益受損了以後呢 院跟院之間到現在到目前都沒有任何溝通各位委員幫我們今天看到這樣的狀況因為刑事訴訟法的主要的這個推修法的機關是司法院那我們會透過院跟院之間或是刑法當初就沒有了雖然是刑事訴訟法主管機關是司法院但是我們今天在講"},{"start":625.715,"end":641.152,"text":"對這跟你們有關的跟行政部門有關的一審會依須鑑定所謂的責任怎麼會跟你們行政部門沒有關係都有關係而一審會的重點來了你們去看一審會的設置要點不要忘了一審會是"},{"start":642.774,"end":664.874,"text":"可以召集一式鑑定小組得一鑑定案件性質分組召開會議所以看起來從這個設置要點來看一式鑑定小組是要一個小組的而且到時候的決議是要共識決的需要小組委員過半數的出席"},{"start":666.075,"end":691.004,"text":"決議事項需有出席委員過半數的同意可否同訴時由主席裁決所以這個共識決不是一個人的在這裡的共識決你叫一個醫生去具名到底要叫出審的、出判的還是要叫主席去具名誰要擔負這個責任不清不楚"},{"start":693.618,"end":697.091,"text":"制度面有沒有問題 有阿執行面有沒有問題 有阿"},{"start":700.373,"end":725.463,"text":"可是現在就擺爛在那裡的你說這全部都司法院可是沒有我們看這個新聞高檢署有表示高檢署說因應刑事訴訟鑑定相關規定修正正收集實務運作問題因應必要時將協調相關機關解決所以高檢署有這個理由嗎 有啊這已經擺爛了半年了"},{"start":726.603,"end":734.268,"text":"當事人的權益 你看我來一個醫療糾紛 今天因為沒辦法感應沒人要出來感應 沒機關去感應臨醫審會 公務部門 行政部門的公立的醫審會的這個機制都停擺還退件了 退件了300件 50件被退回去250件即將要被退回去"},{"start":755.348,"end":775.706,"text":"這個真的這樣擺爛下去是不行的啦跟委員報告,我想我們不會給他擺爛,我們是希望我們再來協調,議審會已經再來做,因為這是執行面的問題法律都這樣子規定了,議審會是共識決,要叫到一個移民我想我們再來做一個協調"},{"start":776.747,"end":777.268,"text":"這本的問題重重欸但是院長"},{"start":807.133,"end":812.758,"text":"現在他們的做法直接退回去 退回去地檢署 退回去地檢署可是法律已經修成這樣子了 這麼剛性的法律 你能夠自行去彈性調整嗎"},{"start":831.853,"end":837.197,"text":"衛福部部長你來講講看如果法律沒有修正最可能最可行的方式怎麼解決"},{"start":840.308,"end":840.808,"text":"法務部部長 最可行的方式是什麼"},{"start":862.995,"end":889.946,"text":"當然法律的話我們要依法來行政嘛當然我們希望說我們個案委託那個一事鑑定委會來鑑定我們希望來做一個鑑定那既然是一事鑑定委員會的委員認為這部分有自愛難行的部分我們再來瞭解開我們再來開會來瞭解說不然你們說這個都不對因為專台灣依照新式促進法第208條又不是只有一省會可以鑑定"},{"start":890.966,"end":913.676,"text":"條文寫得清清楚楚﹖跟主託醫院學校或其他相關的機關機構或團體為鑑定的是不是透過其他的機關鑑定﹖或是像這個衛福部所提的這個事情細則就是鑑定之後的資料 敘述於事主的不公開會不會有一個進展的可能"},{"start":916.044,"end":916.264,"text":"謝謝林委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:32:14 - 15:47:55","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155047","gazette":{"lineno":1360,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（15時32分）副院長、各位大家午安，是不是請卓院長？"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：院長，最近醫療糾紛的案子大概都沒有辦法進行，因為刑事訴訟法在去年年底修正了第二百零八條，法院或檢察官得囑託醫院等機關團體鑑定，或審查他人的鑑定，而且要具名，過去所有的醫療糾紛鑑定，大概都是送給衛福部的醫審會來進行。第一個，醫審會是機關內。第二個免費，因為醫審會有編列預算所以免費，雖然刑事訴訟法第二百零八條規定還可以委託其他機關、醫院等等進行鑑定，但是大家都還是委託醫審會居多。現在最嚴重的事情發生了，因為醫審會把來自於檢察機關或司法機關的這些醫療糾紛事故鑑定，大概有300件，已經退回地檢署的有50件，待退的有250件，你知道嗎？我們要講的是在這個過程，從去年年底修法到現在，從實施到現在將近半年了，有300件案件的進度是停滯的，沒有辦法繼續審理，而且送到醫審會的案件是被退回的，沒有退的也即將要被退。醫療糾紛的原告或被告在整個訴訟的審理程序中，簡直是無法進行，這對所有的相關權益影響甚大，這個事情茲事體大，不曉得該怎麼解決？衛福部醫事司表示他們要把案件全部還給地檢署，地檢署請自行去尋找願意合作的醫學中心、醫師或專科醫學會自己去鑑定；我們知道送到醫審會免費，送到醫院或醫學中心去鑑定是要錢的，但是重點也不是在錢的問題而已，是現在要具名、要具名。","衛福部的概念是要請行政院跟司法機關去溝通，轉達醫審會有為難之處，希望規定鑑定人員必須具名可以摒除醫師，讓醫師安心，可是我們去看一下整個修法的過程，在修法的過程裡面，當初司法院跟法務部提出刑事訴訟法第兩百零八條的修正，其實所持的理由為即便是機關鑑定，也是機關內部的自然人實施鑑定或審查以後，再用機關的名義出具書面報告，所以機關實施鑑定之自然人應該要準用相關規定，除了書面報告以外，當然要具名以示負責，俾利作為判斷其是否具備鑑定適格的依據及擔保鑑定或審查程序的專業性及公正性，所以意思是機關實施鑑定，仍然由自然人為之。大家都講說醫生害怕訴訟啊！害怕跑法院啦！醫生還要上法院！以這樣子一語帶過，我是覺得司法機關講的有道理，可是大家就一概以醫師怕上法院為由，來說衛福部醫審會這裡的人沒擔當，事實上也不是啊！你去叫教學中心、去叫醫院來鑑定，看他們要不要來鑑定，我相信有很多為難之處，有一點我就覺得聽起來合理，但人性上不見得可行啦！我現在比較想問大家的，到底具名的才容易造假，還是不具名的才比較容易造假？院長、部長，你們覺得呢？鑑定報告是要具名送上去才不會造假，還是具名上去才會造假？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當初是一個修法的過程，司法院希望鑑定是以具名的方式以示負責。"],["林委員淑芬：對！我剛剛已經說明過了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是因為我也知道對我們以送件為鑑的單位來講，有沒有具名，其實跟整個鑑定的結果跟效力是沒有影響的，但最大的一個困擾就是如果這個鑑定結果有詰問的必要時，要到法庭去接受交互詰問，我想這個會造成鑑定單位心理上的一個負擔。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，剛剛我已經講了你們修法時講的是，事實上具名要擔保他的適格，而且要擔保他的專業和公正，這一點也是問題喔！並不是你講的如果有糾紛要上法院而已，我現在要講這個是因為站在衛福部的立場，衛福部部長你也說一下，為什麼醫審會的人會拒絕審理醫糾的案件？300件欸！你看相關的權益在這半年來，已經有300件、有300個當事人，他的權益都沒有任何保障，整個訴訟卡在那裡，然後都沒有人出來解決，院長，沒有人出來解決欸！衛福部退回去，然後法務部沒有辦法審理，司法機關看到你們自己沒辦法起訴，也沒辦法審理，跟他們沒關係，整個修法造成了當事人權益這麼的不保，怎麼大家都沒有人願意主動出來解決問題？我覺得百思不得其解，把當事人全部放在那裡、放到爛，現在就要立委來質詢，看你們要不要去解決，是這樣嗎？衛福部部長有什麼困難，講一下？"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的！報告委員，本部因為這樣的原因，已經邀請司法院召開說明會，也轉知司法院問答集給醫審會的委員、專家及鑑定醫師，但是大部分的委員、專家及鑑定醫師表示不願意再參與醫事鑑定，所以113年……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有人要來鑑定，理由是什麼？他們擔心的是什麼？為什麼修了一個法，結果造成沒有任何醫事人員、專業的人員願意來接受鑑定的任務呢？"],["邱部長泰源：本部在7月……"],["林委員淑芬：可以整個停擺嗎？當事人的權益怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：我們本來想要修訂醫療法的施行細則，增訂醫療鑑定相關資料應予保密，不予公開的規定，但是請教專家以後表示說這個必須要……"],["林委員淑芬：你所說的跟司法機關跟法務部他們認為的剛好是背道而馳的，要具名才能夠……我剛剛唸過的，讓他的鑑定的適格有依據，他的專業性和公正性，而且保證不造假，所以我剛才問你是要具名才會造假還是不具名才會造假？部長你又沒說到一個重點……"],["邱部長泰源：醫審會是整個很嚴謹的，已經很多年了，大概……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你沒有講重點，我幫你講好了啦！其實醫審會也可以從別的醫院鑑定，難道就一定要醫審會？為什麼都不委託別的醫院，別的醫院、醫生為什麼也不鑑定？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我想這個問題是鑑定之後具名，會怕之後產生一些醫事糾紛之後的糾紛，所以設定這樣子，照委員剛剛所說的，這樣的可信度是不是會被接受、它的效力問題，雖然我們建議說鑑定不需要具名跟具結，那麼這個規定……"],["林委員淑芬：現在法律就明文規定要具名啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是能夠解決當事人沒有意願……"],["林委員淑芬：當初修法，為什麼院和院之間沒有能夠好好地溝通，這樣子硬修下去，可行性、執行上有沒有困難？整個行政部門跟司法部門為什麼大家都沒有溝通，然後就一意孤行通過，然後現在造成當事人權益受損呢？而當事人權益受損了以後，院跟院之間到現在、到目前都沒有任何溝通，只有衛福部送一個公文去給它叫它講，這樣說得過去嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們今天看到這樣的狀況，因為刑事訴訟法的主要修法機關是司法院，我們會透過院跟院之間或是請法務部……"],["林委員淑芬：當初就沒有了，雖然刑事訴訟法主管機關是司法院，但是我們今天在講，直接跟你們有關係，跟行政部門有關係的醫審會醫師鑑定所有的責任，怎麼會跟你們行政部門沒有關係？都有關係，而醫審會的重點來了，你們去看醫審會的設置要點，不要忘了，醫審會是可以召集醫事鑑定小組，得依鑑定案件性質分組召開會議，所以看起來，從這個設置要點來看，醫事鑑定小組是要一個小組的，而且到時候的決議是要共識決的，須要小組委員過半數的出席，決議事項須有出席委員過半數的同意，可否同數時由主席裁決，所以一個共識決不是一個人的，而且要共識決，你叫一個醫生去具名，到底要叫初審的、初判的還是要叫主席去具名？誰要擔負這個責任不清不楚！制度面有沒有問題？有啊！執行面有沒有問題？有啊！可是現在就擺爛在那裡，你說這全部都司法院，可是沒有，我們看這個新聞，高檢署有表示，高檢署說因應刑事訴訟鑑定相關規定修正，正收集實務運作問題因應，必要時將協調相關機關解決，所以高檢署有沒有責任？有啊！這已經擺爛半年了，當事人的權益，你看看，一個醫療糾紛，只因為沒辦法鑑定，沒人要出來鑑定，沒機關願意出來鑑定，連醫審會，公務部門、行政部門的公立的醫審會的這個機制都停擺，還退件！300件，50件被退回去，250件即將要被退回去，這多難看，真的這樣擺爛下去是不行的啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我們不會讓它擺爛，我們也是希望我們再來協調醫審會……因為這是執行面的問題……"],["林委員淑芬：法律都這樣子規定了，醫審會是共識決，要叫哪一個醫生具名？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再來做一個協調……"],["林委員淑芬：這問題重重耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：刑事訴訟法新的制度實施之後，衛福部在7月是有訂定一個施行細則，在這施行細則之內，他們是希望說……因為這個鑑定的資料應予保密，不予公開，但是在內部討論的時候，其他政委還是有一些不同的想法，我覺得我們內部現在可以再討論一下，如果有需要再跟司法院做溝通……"],["林委員淑芬：但是院長，現在他們的作法是就直接退回去，退回去地檢署。"],["卓院長榮泰：碰到這個問題，謝謝委員的提醒，我們看到了這個問題，我請衛福部還有法務部再跟政委再研究一下，是不是要再跟司法院就現狀執行上的困難，以及這麼多案件累積無法……"],["林委員淑芬：可是法律已經修成這樣子了，這麼剛性的法律你能夠自行去彈性調整嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會再跟它說明，因為現狀已經有發生這個困難。"],["林委員淑芬：來，衛福部部長來講講看，如果法律沒有修正，最可能、最可行的方式要怎麼解決？不知道？"],["邱部長泰源：原來我們在……我們真的是也很積極在想辦法……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！你告訴我具體的講在不修法的狀況裡面，最可能、最具體可行的解決方式，不要讓當事人權益受損，可以進行真正的鑑定、程序可以進行下去，法務部部長你告訴我，最可行的方式是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然法律的話，我們要依法來行政，我們希望個案委託醫事鑑定委員會來鑑定，我們希望來做一個鑑定，既然是醫事鑑定委員會的委員認為這部分有窒礙難行的部分，我們再來開會了解到底……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，你們說得都不對，因為全臺灣依照刑事訴訟法第二百零八條，又不是只有醫審會可以鑑定，條文寫得清清楚楚，跟囑託醫院、學校或其他相關的機關、機構或團體為鑑定，為什麼其他人也沒有在鑑定？為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：透過其他的機關鑑定，或是像衛福部所提的施行細則，就是鑑定之後的資料是不是予以不公開，會不會有一個進展的可能？"],["林委員淑芬：我不知道，所以真的是茲事體大啦！如果這樣有辦法做就趕快做，不要再拖下去，不知道到底是司法院的主張正確，還是我們這邊執行面真的有窒礙難行之處，這個事情真的要好好的去解決。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定持續跟司法院來溝通，希望能解決這個問題。"],["林委員淑芬：好，OK。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（15時48分）","繼續開會（15時59分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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屏東的地方政府我覺得在做事情很差勁"},{"start":223.396,"end":248.674,"text":"所以這個要加強我跟委員報告因為不同的縣市它公告的時間點不一樣我們是從公告開始算那另外就是說在一天的部分我們也在新的辦法裡面去做一個彈性的處理因為當你量很多的時候工作也沒辦法同一時間接到那麼多人所以它的處理程序會變慢的時候我們就願意把這個時間把它做一點彈性的延長院長"},{"start":251.584,"end":251.624,"text":"蘇清泉議員"},{"start":275.265,"end":275.405,"text":"我絕對不客氣"},{"start":298.388,"end":321.287,"text":"所以這個要寬裂經費尤其是大牌尤其是抽水站像萬丹、雲南來、東港那些都要加強我會盯得很緊跟院長報告那這個是比較誇張這一張是高速高速這個橫的聯絡道路台21院長你看到沒有"},{"start":322.264,"end":346.643,"text":"那個橋墩這麼低 橋面這麼低然後整個山洪下來 裡面還有擋土牆 到現在還沒有處理那這次颱風又來了 整個水都濺了 高速箱我要請水利署去看那現在颱風 這個大颱風又來了整個淹起來 所以高秋剛好五個川淹到2.9米"},{"start":348.459,"end":348.979,"text":"所以都要很嚴謹的來看"},{"start":375.762,"end":399.716,"text":"那我們台平東縣的榮損這一次全台第4嚴重那各位看到榮損是4億多那裡面的一個比較誇張的是漁業漁業的摘損才這是開米的喔才1600多萬陳部長這個為什麼那麼低就是因為我們漁業登記太少嗎是"},{"start":401.044,"end":409.589,"text":"四五千公頃、四五千港本了千多公頃有養殖登記的30%本來不到30%現在達37.2%一樣是民進黨施政的縣市啊臺南78%啊嘉峪86%啊"},{"start":423.953,"end":440.527,"text":"我們屏東怎麼那麼糟糕?為什麼?我跟委員報告齁我們全台灣的那個養殖面積大概4.1萬公頃然後整體的有水權的齁大概佔66%啦那相對的屏東才37.2比起全國的平均比較低"},{"start":441.087,"end":457.52,"text":"那有兩個問題一個問題就是說他的土地共用的問題第二個問題就是水款的問題我現在要處理的就是說我要把這個養殖的登記跟水款先做切離不然你如果拿不到水款你一輩子拿不到登記證"},{"start":458.769,"end":472.423,"text":"委員長你可能不知道部長在說的很詳細的就是說你如果沒有預約登記證你如果遭到災害你是沒辦法賠的一線都沒辦法賠喔你知道一天一宿都六千萬一兩千萬大家都遭到憂鬱症這樣"},{"start":476.687,"end":503.137,"text":"副部長 您當後要再過我腳就要跳牢了報告委員 這是這樣啦 只是說你那些水管沒有 啊你會要去喔 遇到你就要感受而已啦但是我 我們當然是來幫助他 今天來提到水管 因為有在補助這個問題 過去我們如果當了都沒發現 所以因為我們要他清晰啦 工業的土地啦 留情社的土地啦 那個特管局都一樣啦"},{"start":504.377,"end":504.818,"text":"委員長都看不下去"},{"start":516.796,"end":534.435,"text":"我們以前80年代差不多28%現在已經37.2%那我會先把水源做切割以後讓它有養殖業登記這樣的話天然災害進來的時候比較會有保障第二部分就是說我們跟經濟部水利署這邊就是說變成一個專區我們興建整個供水系統"},{"start":538.799,"end":540.101,"text":"做那個海水供應的那個幾乎是全海水的養殖"},{"start":553.737,"end":572.728,"text":"我選擇醫生我對農業我們都要做醫生我不是個白癡我很認真的看每次來看沒有管政府施工就讓他施工你們水屬還是是月屬自己要施工的就扎扎實實施工現在有一點成效出來了所以這個水權的問題部長那都是知識解決要做跟不做而已啦沒有啦報告委員"},{"start":579.335,"end":582.076,"text":"現在民北市的浮流水一天會害八角的九十多萬棟"},{"start":599.986,"end":600.126,"text":"給個數字吧"},{"start":621.758,"end":630.228,"text":"至少要幾年內要達到加基分齡有人這樣啦 這樣就對那些人學本文規你知道嗎 餘苗放下去像電競海面颱風"},{"start":633.516,"end":661.626,"text":"我們對水資源的善用乃至於對於生態環境的保護我們在這個原則底下積極來協助現在的養殖業者當然是我們的政策但是一定要中央地方能夠配合地方的維護土地資源的維護還是要列為重要的優先因素"},{"start":663.663,"end":663.703,"text":"蘇清泉議員"},{"start":684.811,"end":708.875,"text":"我們會積極來看看協助業者能夠在合法的水權底下具重進行他的這個產業我有開協調會我開協調會彭寮啦、加當啦、民運通通兄弟都來了大家要湊個六條啦所以不定在地人一定要做我跟積極來做好不好月數嘛,這裡說樂觀其成嘛繼續齁"},{"start":716.086,"end":735.664,"text":"這個昨天晚上,這是人家叫我問的啦這分所長叫龍龍時阿一令我跟大家報告我們警察是第二陸軍我們的海巡署是第二海軍警察條例35條大家關心一下啦"},{"start":741.062,"end":768.798,"text":"我們總統說他是山君的靠山我覺得非常的不捨,非常的痛惜在執法的過程當中因公殉職我想我們這個包括警政署內政部我們都要對他的後續的一些輔助工作要做到最完美給家屬一個最好的安慰重要的是造勢的這個行為人這種不法的行為我們應該要讓社會一個很清楚的交代"},{"start":769.799,"end":795.558,"text":"市長,警察條例35條,典型廢廢洋洋,我是提案,我是提案是,報告委員,這位造勢者,我有兩個報告,第一個這造勢者是一個毒蟲,已經抓到了,然後第二個我們表達非常的痛心,然後第三個就是有關於警察因公殉職的部分,其實我們已經公告完成,會用這個最高的撫恤方式來進行他的殉職方面的撫恤作業"},{"start":796.673,"end":811.507,"text":"他們的退休能夠拉高一點警察平均壽命跟一般百姓差10歲部長你知不知道然後呢退休之後很快20年以來就有很多出問題這個我們都有統計所以為什麼"},{"start":815.393,"end":843.357,"text":"日夜顛倒比我們醫護人員的值班還辛苦因為他是跳間斷式的所以每一個到50歲、58歲退休之後馬上就出問題所以這警察是我們要呵護給他們尊嚴、給他們照顧、給他們當靠山比照軍人的退休又有什麼了不起嘛不然你看海外很多人我們平時把他們當成外星座、當成豆婆這樣弄一弄、弄一弄、拌薄下去"},{"start":844.85,"end":871.948,"text":"想不過去啦好不好部長我們一起來努力好繼續你等一下再走接著是換你了又換你了來我們高鐵到潮州這一個我這裡要跟院長齁跟您陳士凱肯定一下他剛上任沒有幾天就跑到六塊樹去了大家說他沒專業但是我感覺他永遠認識"},{"start":873.407,"end":899.252,"text":"好像只有我在肯定他喔 部長 跟你簽訂謝謝委員 越多的委員越認識他啦講得很直接 非常好好 這個是高鐵的路 預定路線那我們那天決定就是六塊處的車站 優先施工嘛 對不對 部長是 院長你也知道這個事情吧就是說六鐵出口這塊 因為他要到屏東1.4公里而已"},{"start":901.96,"end":925.316,"text":"那邊的那個海拔那天有跟部長報告齁才7公尺而已所以一定要加棟高提防還有那個地方是科學元氣已經在在廠商已經兩家動工了齁所以那個地方先做我們把案子擺戰場但是我們的目標是要到潮州齁那方案一方案二方案三"},{"start":926.548,"end":950.941,"text":"那天我也說,莊家斌委員也有在場他也說,我們走高雄市這段可能會比較好,我沒有意見,但是倒著倒退路又曬出來,那有點違反原則,against the principle那高雄這間我剛才提到的,高雄那間台下,我告訴你,高雄古市區"},{"start":953.57,"end":960.195,"text":"這個選舉的公告若無成立,那些車頭多大,非常大,選舉的公告絕對沒問題,那些所在若國體沒經過,我會說國用手鼓一鼓敲去,沒機會了"},{"start":970.868,"end":971.609,"text":"我強烈建議所以年底要訂案"},{"start":988.055,"end":1014.817,"text":"還是建議那第二個我們的目標是要到炒作那部長也說那條軌道就把它通了出來準備誰是要接下去我對你什麼來講報告委員那個叫做留為軌就是留下未來延伸的可能性那目前延伸屏東的方案已經在綜合規劃當中那像委員剛剛所說的有兩個方案目前我們正在思考也正在討論"},{"start":1016.118,"end":1043.27,"text":"那最後目前是討論到六塊錯那我知道地方上還有一些大家的聲音希望再更長一點那我們就用劉維鬼的方式劉維鬼就會留下未來延伸的可能性高鐵到六塊錯一點意義都沒有啦一點意義都沒有平東1.4公里那是支線的末端那個跟盲腸一樣所以一定是要往下努力啦這個跟院長請求"},{"start":1045.438,"end":1049.499,"text":"這個是比較嚴肅的問題 肯定話 這也要跟我們報 跟我們來見報也關起來肯定話 這句話 議長 你聽過沒有這句話是難聽話 這句話是鄙視跟看不起的話"},{"start":1072.947,"end":1076.99,"text":"我這裡要跟院長報告一下墾丁今天為什麼會死得那麼慘"},{"start":1102.322,"end":1118.516,"text":"橫村半島怎麼死那麼慘三個原因第一個是交通的問題第二個是地價的問題第三是生意人心態肯定國家公園失職我一個一個跟你報告下一張"},{"start":1121.668,"end":1150.533,"text":"這個在2018年 人家就在消遣的位2018年就這樣講我們地方政府也沒有什麼做的好 下一張我們 院長你如果去到夏威夷你剛才我去去海灘旁邊那海邊在開車那麼漂亮 你主人就慢慢開 慢慢心想我們屏東 你看來 下一張"},{"start":1152.059,"end":1153.62,"text":"下一張五張的問題"},{"start":1181.906,"end":1193.514,"text":"你覺得我們的協商機有幾機?測數照相17機紅窗紅燈4機區間測數兩大組全部抓到鬆來來的一定181年、182年、183年你不用告訴我昆天有多少人去這套我怎麼看這個數字我就知道"},{"start":1211.707,"end":1234.4,"text":"早一年交通罰單7千萬、8千萬,我們民眾管政會可以分75%今年一月到八月就這樣了,這樣什麼?沒有人去啦你如果去墾丁七坨回來,放兩張、三張罰單是很普通的事情如果是你,你開車去玩一趟回來兩、三張罰單,你還會再去嗎?"},{"start":1239.123,"end":1247.628,"text":"所以坤町的末路斷來式的下墜不是沒理由的,所以大家要看要怎麼去救,如果沒有,我看是沒辦法我們民東關,我們台北新北市一年變交通違規的滑單,400多萬人口變10億我們民東關79萬人口變5億,而且收到6億多,超收啦"},{"start":1267.338,"end":1283.77,"text":"新北市的人負擔平均起來一個人負擔250塊我們平常就在傘啦 傘剛好幾粒而已 還要負擔750塊請問一下 這個是合理嗎所以光光哥不來 我們地方政府要負點責任吧再來 地價 這個跟我們內政部應該有關係啦齁"},{"start":1292.472,"end":1302.374,"text":"坤町大街 坤町大街 七十幾公里 六百公尺一坪土地 一百七十六萬 怕死啦 咱大池喔 大池喔 大池他一百三十幾萬 這裡一百七十六萬一間老廚 那間 都八千萬 七千萬 七條 請問"},{"start":1320.403,"end":1339.523,"text":"這房子賣到這裡,賣到那邊,賣到那邊還要照做不下去?一定有,你可能都不知道,你有機會來,我陪你來看看賣到那邊我去過了賣到那邊也要做不下去,你去過了,做不下去,人沒人這房子這麼貴,電管的民宿就貴"},{"start":1342.605,"end":1349.331,"text":"所以我們這個是國家公園管理處在這樣操作跟地方政府為什麼會放任這樣你看這個地方這個是第三個我們業者本身不知愛"},{"start":1369.551,"end":1377.536,"text":"把遊客當作一次性的肥羊,這樣就把他毒,傷痛的條所以國家公園管理處,劉部長,這要怎麼做"},{"start":1399.771,"end":1399.871,"text":"交通部門"},{"start":1429.628,"end":1432.511,"text":"公告地價50多萬公告限值90萬"},{"start":1455.583,"end":1461.748,"text":"每個委員報告剛剛你談的這個幾個問題我覺得終結的問題最真結的問題國家公園的管理要非常的到位所以剛剛部長已經談到了第一個國家公園第一個"},{"start":1474.838,"end":1478.02,"text":"交通耗資重新檢討維持交通在這個邦光地區維持交通的重要性我們還是要兼顧土地的問題如果沒有那麼多人會去地價不可能那麼高"},{"start":1496.189,"end":1500.332,"text":"鄭春彬的一棟房子一千二萬、一千三萬現在漲價了以前不到一千萬那一間房子一棟房子要五千、六千、七千、八千萬這真是瘋了嘛這沒有那種條件"},{"start":1524.246,"end":1542.12,"text":"那最後這裡還有五里亭機場 院長你覺得聽過以前興村的五里亭機場一天一禮拜還有三十多磅飛機 現在一磅就沒有了所以這你要考慮 考慮看要怎麼恢復這為松山飛到五里亭機場 下一張"},{"start":1554.363,"end":1578.879,"text":"這個再來是我們屏南快速道路你已經 院長你也有在宣示說要開始了嘛那個路廊也決定了我建議在高架高速路的下面做單車單車道啦 這68公里來來走他能站到對 笑到對 吃到對這樣也可以振興 那是另外一個族群"},{"start":1579.795,"end":1591.842,"text":"那這個是一個好的事情,院長可不可以唸一下,這個下面用單車,這個有很多地方在做,部長可以嗎?我來研究兩位請回,我們請邱部長院長辛苦了"},{"start":1607.594,"end":1633.15,"text":"今天早上有聽到幾位委員在質詢講了很多我們健保的事情那我跟邱部長有很多對話那我跟他講一回收啦我對著和尚念經是沒有用的因為他比我還會念所以我今天要對你對院長你我們的醫療有沒有機會有沒有希望我叫我看你"},{"start":1635.595,"end":1647.801,"text":"我剛說過去30年健保保障國人現在我們要回頭保障健保所以一定要有救而且一定要救得起來那目前我覺得體質還是在我們大家能夠接受的範圍內院長我告訴你我們天堂主決議那一張有嗎?因為主決議說"},{"start":1658.783,"end":1660.003,"text":"現在現在目前的電池存多少?"},{"start":1688.052,"end":1715.033,"text":"零點八二零點八二要站到我出的橋啦我要向院長報告就想你的基金裡面還有兩百億給我來報現在健保署怎麼操作你知道嗎他就說 譬如說三招第一招就是斷頭我要給你一億結果你做一億二那你的兩千萬就自己斷頭"},{"start":1716.927,"end":1741.082,"text":"斷頭之後他就給你抽案子來嚴審審完之後還不夠呢答不到邱太元說的要0.95呢阿伯再叫你共同攤分攤扣除叫做攤扣跟營港的攤扣不一樣這樣就叫你扣攤扣有7億、有8億、有10億把他拉到電子0.92、0.93很好看的如果要用這樣來抬"},{"start":1746.933,"end":1765.721,"text":"1.0也沒問題1.1塊錢也沒問題所以現在都假象所以再來就造成什麼造成智慧的醫療院所巧立名目然後智慧的越來越高我敢講醫療院所巧立名目這是很大的挑戰喔但是不這樣他活不了"},{"start":1767.351,"end":1796.177,"text":"那與其要這樣不如事實寫出來健保署很聰明你要什麼他就給你什麼你要0.95他就可以殺到0.95嚴審斷頭這動同堂口所以今年已經不行了健保基金裡面拿一些出來補今年現在的點子不然的話到年底都出問題了部長是不是這樣"},{"start":1799.102,"end":1807.745,"text":"因為電池當然是有比較多政府其實都很想辦法來改善這個環境應該有的權益尤其現在的行政院無論是今年還是未來都盡量用盡了"},{"start":1823.191,"end":1823.331,"text":"好 謝謝蘇委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:01:18 - 15:32:05","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155046","gazette":{"lineno":1259,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（15時1分）謝謝主席，請院長還有經濟部、農業部。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢，經濟部長、農業部長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，今天屏東、高雄都已經停班停課了，我拚命的來這裡，就是要跟你反映，所以你要好好聽、好好做。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，我剛剛聽到劉部長是應變中心的指揮官，他對南部的狀況現在滿憂心的，但是我們也在充分的準備當中。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我這次要肯定農業部陳部長，上次在銷毀雞蛋的時候，我們在農業生物園區那邊，包括楊瓊瓔、張啓楷和我，我們對他勇敢面對任何一件事情，而且是很有擔當的，我再次肯定他，陳部長加油！","（播放影片）"],["蘇委員清泉：影片上的是現在的獅子鄉內文村，它的海拔是700公尺，各位看到災情已經出來了，颱風還沒有登陸，災情就已經出來了。","這張照片是屏東的家樂福、全聯，東西都掃光光，掃到全都空了，經濟部，物資的support跟supply要充分供應，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來，這張照片是上次凱米颱風我本人又去調大型抽水機，這是東港溪，這部分是水利署的業務，我在這裡要要求院長，因為現在要調大型抽水機，必須是鄉鎮去跟縣府反映，然後再跟水利分署調，我在這裡要特別跟部長說，你自己手中要有大型的抽水機，而不是都任人擺佈，因為鄉鎮跟縣府有時候聯繫上會比較……畢竟是颱風天，所以如果他們來不及，你們就要主動介入，這樣好不好？因為這個颱風非常非常大。農業部也是一樣，好不好？","再來，各位看到上次凱米颱風的補助，高雄申請到9月底，屏東到8月底，然後農業部是10天內。部長，我不知道你這10天內是什麼意思？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，當一個天然災害品項公告以後，農民要在10天之內去跟公所申請，如果他遇到有受到災損的時候，他要去跟公所申請，這是10天的意思。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以各縣市要切齊，不要高雄就比較久，屏東……我覺得屏東的地方政府做事很差勁，所以這個要加強。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，因為不同的縣市公告的時間點不一樣，我們是從公告日開始算。另外就是10天的部分，我們也在新的辦法裡面彈性處理，因為當量很多的時候，公所沒辦法同一時間接待那麼多人，所以它的處理程序會變慢，我們願意把這個時間做一點彈性的延長。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，百姓受災已經慘兮兮了，所以要寬容一點，讓他們可以受補助、使用，大家都很辛苦。郭部長是枋寮人，是東海人，你們當地都在養魚，你不要傻傻的！","你看這個大排壞掉需要8.2億，現在縣政府卻只剩三點多億。我要肯定一下，像是第七河川署李宗恩分署長也很認真，我叫他到哪裡去勘災，他就馬上到，然後馬上反映，我覺得水利署的表現也很好。好就好，壞就壞，我絕對不客氣。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以這個要寬列經費，尤其是大排、抽水站，像萬丹灣仔內、東港都要加強。我會盯得很緊，跟院長報告。","這個是比較誇張，這一張圖是高樹，這條橫的聯絡道路台21線，院長看到了嗎？橋墩這麼低，橋面這麼低，然後整個山洪下來，裡面還有擋土牆，到現在還沒有處理，這次颱風又來了，結果擋住、把整個水都塞住，這是高樹鄉，我還要請水利署去看。現在大颱風又來了，整個淹起來。高樹有5個村淹到2.9米，2.9米是多高？一層樓那麼高，如果這個是錯誤的設計，要怎麼更改？或是要把下面的擋土牆趕快清掉？你有看到廟的金爐被土石流搞成這個樣子嗎？這個在高樹新豐村，跟各位報告，所以都要很嚴謹的來看。","屏東縣的農損這一次是全臺灣第四嚴重，各位看到農損四億多，裡面比較誇張的是漁業，這是凱米颱風的資料，漁業的災損才一千六百多萬。陳部長，這個為什麼那麼低？就是因為我們的漁業登記太少！總面積有四、五千公頃，大約四、五千甲，雖然枋寮有一千多公頃，但有漁業登記、養殖登記的才30%，本來不到30%。"],["陳部長駿季：37.2%。"],["蘇委員清泉：一樣是民進黨執政的縣市，臺南78%，嘉義86%，屏東怎麼那麼糟糕？為什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，全臺灣的養殖面積大概4.1萬公頃，然後有水權的大概占整體66%。相對的，屏東才37.2%，比起全國平均較低。那有兩個問題，一個問題就是土地共用的問題；第二個問題就是水權的問題。我現在正在處理，要把養殖的登記跟水權先切離，不然拿不到水權，一輩子也拿不到登記證。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長可能不知道，部長說得很詳細。如果沒有漁業登記證，一旦遇到災害，是沒辦法獲得賠償的，一毛錢都沒辦法賠！"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道各地都有遇到這樣的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：你知道養魚一次輸贏都好幾千萬或一、兩千萬，大家都得憂鬱症了！郭部長，我看你們東海若再遇到就要跳樓了。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這是這樣，如果沒有水權，卻硬要養殖，遇到災害就要「甘輸贏」。我們當然會幫助他們趕快拿到水權，因為是為了補助這個問題。過去好幾年都沒發現，所以他們也就掉以輕心，現在我們就盡量來幫助他們，讓他們有水權。"],["蘇委員清泉：不！有些是共有的土地、產權不清的土地，每個縣市都一樣，難道屏東比較特別嗎？說到水權，現在伏流水一大堆，那是做不做的問題。陳部長，要積極輔導他們，常常都是百分之二十幾，院長都看不下去了！"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。我們自110年時就差不多28%，現在已經37.2%了，我會先把水權切割以後，讓他有養殖業登記，這樣的話，天然災害進來的時候比較會有保障。第二個部分就是我們會跟經濟部水利署這邊變成一個專區，我們興建整個供水系統，不要讓農民自己去挖，這樣的話就會讓他們更有保障。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個非常好，做得非常好，這裡還是要請院長給你肯定，做那個海水供應的幾乎是全海水養殖，我也很認真，我雖然當醫生，但我家都是在做魚塭的，我不是白癡，我很認真在看，每一個都看清楚，要讓縣政府施工的就讓它施工，你們水利署還是漁業署自己要施工的，就紮紮實實施工，現在有一點成效出來啦！所以這個水權的問題，部長，那都是枝枝節節，要做或不做而已啦！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦！報告委員，因為我們屏東那一帶有地下水的問題，現在如果水抽得太多，整個就都崩塌了，所以那部分也是要控制，真的跟委員報告，我相信你是內行的，你應該很清楚屏東的情形。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在林邊溪的伏流水一天流入海的約有九十幾萬噸，你要怎麼好好利用？海水……"],["郭部長智輝：那一帶都是我們屏南在做養殖的。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，你很清楚海水要怎麼引進來，全海水養殖都可以，不要講得那麼困難，只是要不要做，所以短期內把它提高，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會啦，我們現在用特別預算有編列經費加強去做。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，給個數字吧！至少要幾年內要達到像嘉義、雲林，沒有人這樣啦，這會讓那些人血本無歸，魚苗都放了下去，像上次凱米颱風就滿出來，魚也跑掉、蝦子也跑掉，那比死還要難過，我們真的要苦民所苦啦，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，了解委員的關心，我們對水資源的善用，乃至於對於生態環境的保護，我們在這個原則底下積極來協助現在的養殖業者，這當然是我們的政策，但是一定要中央、地方能夠配合，地方的維護、土地資源的維護還是要列為重要的優先因素。"],["蘇委員清泉：多久會達到雲林的水準？什麼時候可以達到50%、60%、70%這樣子……"],["卓院長榮泰：不同的縣市這樣子比較，沒有特別的意義。"],["蘇委員清泉：你不要讓颱風來一次比一次嚴重，像這個跟賽洛瑪差不多。我看，有的人在賽洛瑪之前那時候還沒出生，當時是很嚴重的。院長，你有經歷過吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會積極來看看，協助業者能夠在合法的水權底下進行他的產業。"],["蘇委員清泉：我有開協調會……"],["卓院長榮泰：用不同縣市的比較，沒有意義。"],["蘇委員清泉：我有開協調會，枋寮、佳冬、林邊的鄉長通通都來了，大家都罵得很難聽，所以部長，我們在地人一定要做到好，趕快積極來做，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：漁業署也說樂觀其成。","好，繼續，昨天晚上的事件，這是人家叫我問的，這個分所長被撞死。院長，我跟大家報告，我們警察是第二陸軍，我們的海巡署是第二海軍，警察條例第三十五條，給他們關心一下啦！我們總統說他是三軍的靠山，我希望他做警消人員的靠山。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們覺得非常的不捨、非常的痛惜，在執法的過程當中因公殉職，我想整個包括警政署、內政部，我們都要對他後續的一些撫卹工作做到最完美，給家屬一個最好的安慰，重要的是肇事的這個行為人這種不法的行為，我們應該要給社會一個很清楚的交代。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，警察條例第三十五條上次沸沸揚揚，我是提案人。"],["劉部長世芳：是，報告委員，這一位肇事者……"],["蘇委員清泉：銓敘部唧唧歪歪一大堆理由。"],["劉部長世芳：我有兩個報告，第一個，肇事者是一個毒蟲，已經抓到了；第二個，我們表達非常的痛心；第三個就是有關於警察因公殉職的部分，其實我們已經公告完成，會用最高的撫卹方式來進行他殉職方面的撫卹作業。"],["蘇委員清泉：他們的退休能夠拉高一點，警察的平均壽命跟一般百姓差十歲，部長，你知道嗎？且他們退休之後很快，八年以內很多人都出問題，這個我們都有統計。"],["劉部長世芳：是，感謝你關心警察的福利。"],["蘇委員清泉：為什麼？日夜顛倒，比我們醫護人員的值班還辛苦，因為他是間斷式的，所以每一個到55歲、58歲退休之後，馬上就出問題，所以這些警察是我們要呵護的，給他們尊嚴、給他們照顧、給他們當靠山……"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：比照軍人的退休又有什麼了不起，也不用花多少錢啊！我們平常把他們當作衛生紙、當作抹布蹂躪，然後就放任不管，講不過去啦！好不好？部長。"],["劉部長世芳：我們一起來努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，繼續，你等一下再走。接著換你了，又換你了，來！高鐵到潮州，這裡我要向院長肯定陳世凱，他剛上任沒幾天就跑到六塊厝去，大家說他不專業，但是我覺得他勇於任事，好像只有我在肯定他。部長，給你肯定！"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：越多的委員越認識他啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：他講得很直接，非常好。好，高鐵的預定路線，我們那天決定是六塊厝車站優先施工，對不對？部長。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，你也知道這個事情嘛！就是六塊厝這個地方，因為高鐵進到屏東大概才1.4公里而已，那邊的海拔那天也有跟部長報告，才7公尺而已，所以一定要架高堤防。還有那個地方是科學園區，已經有2家廠商在動工了，所以那個地方先做我們百分之百贊成，但是我們的目標是要通到潮州，方案一、方案二、方案三，那天鍾佳濱委員也在場，他也說走高雄市這一段可能會比較好，我沒意見，但是倒退嚕再開出來，有點違反原則，against principle。如果從高雄這邊走，我是讀雄中的，就在高雄火車站那邊，我跟你說，高雄舊市區如果這個三鐵共構沒成立，那麼那個車站挖得這麼大、非常大，三鐵共構絕對沒有問題，但如果那個地方高鐵沒有經過，我跟你說，高雄市的舊市區就死翹翹，沒有機會了！我是雄中的老校友，剛好隔壁就是雄中，所以我強烈建議，至於跑小港機場這個是離得比較遠一點。年底要定案，在這裡我還是建議，我們的目標是要到潮州，部長也說可以把軌道延伸出來，準備隨時要接下去，部長，你是不是這麼說的？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，那個叫做留尾軌，就是留下未來延伸的可能性，目前延伸屏東的方案已經在綜合規劃當中，像委員剛才所說的，有兩個方案，目前我們正在思考，也正在討論，目前是討論到六塊厝，我知道地方上還有一些聲音希望能再更長一點，那麼我們就用留尾軌的方式，留尾軌就會留下未來延伸的可能性。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果高鐵只到六塊厝，那是一點意義都沒有，一點意義都沒有……"],["陳部長世凱：可是屏東鄉親還是很期待。"],["蘇委員清泉：進去屏東1.4公里，那是支線的末端，跟盲腸一樣，所以一定要往下努力啦！這個跟院長請求，也跟你報告。","另外一個是比較嚴肅的問題──墾丁化，這跟交通部有關，也和內政部有關，「墾丁化」這句話院長有聽過嗎？這句話是難聽話欸！這句話是鄙視跟看不起的話，如果我們說六合夜市墾丁化，那就表示它東西賣得很貴，亂喊價，每種東西都不好。如果說饒河夜市墾丁化、士林夜市墾丁化，這都是難聽話，因為墾丁、恆春半島已經被污名化了，所以在這裡我要跟院長報告一下，墾丁今天為什麼會死得那麼慘？恆春半島為什麼會死得那麼慘？三個原因，第一個是交通的問題，第二個是地價的問題，第三是生意人的心態。墾丁國家公園管理處失職！我一個一個跟你報告。這是在2018年人家就在消遣的話，2018年就這樣講，但地方政府也沒什麼作為啦！院長，你如果去夏威夷，你在Waikiki海灘的旁邊開車，那麼漂亮你自然就會慢慢開、慢慢欣賞，但是我們屏東呢？你看在車城那邊整個都是光電板，好幾百公頃，這是我跑去現場拍的，整條路都醜得要命，誰會想要慢慢開、慢慢欣賞？所以蘇貞昌院長去挖那些樹、去種那些樹，我看是沒用啦！我是在地人，可以這樣跟你講。","關於交通的問題，你知道這樣的照相機有幾支？測速照相有17支、闖紅燈4支、區間測速兩大組，全部抓得「爽歪歪」！院長，在111年、112年和113年，你不用跟我說墾丁有多少人去玩，我只看這個數字就知道了，以前一年的交通罰單都七、八千萬，屏東縣政府可以分到75%，結果今年1月到8月只剩這樣，這樣是什麼？沒人去了啦！你去墾丁玩回來，拿到兩張、三張罰單是很普通的事情，如果是你，你開車去玩一趟回來兩、三張罰單，你還會再去嗎？罵都罵死了！所以墾丁的沒落、斷崖式的下墜，不是沒理由的，大家要思考看看怎麼來救它，不然我看是沒希望了！新北市一年編列的交通違規罰單，四百多萬人口編列10億，屏東縣79萬人口編5億，而且收到六億多，超收啦！新北市平均起來一個人負擔250元，屏東人本來就已經很窮、窮到快被鬼抓走了，結果還要負擔750元，請問一下這個合理嗎？所以觀光客不來，我們地方政府也要負點責任吧！","再來是地價，這個跟內政部應該有關係。墾丁大街那一段不到一公里，差不多五、六百公尺，一坪土地176萬，嚇死人了！大直那邊差不多一百三十幾萬，這裡卻要176萬，一間樓房都是七、八千萬起跳，請問這種房子要賣給誰？聽說那一家麥當勞要搬走了、做不下去了，院長，你可能都不知道，你下次來我陪你去看一看。"],["卓院長榮泰：那間麥當勞我去過啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：麥當勞也快做不下去了，你去過了嘛，現在做不下去，因為都沒有人了！這裡房子這麼貴，上面的民宿就貴，它下面的店面也貴，再來租在前面的攤販也貴嘛，所以五片櫛瓜賣你100元，你只好給它「幹譙」，這樣誰還要去？這個是國家公園管理處跟地方政府在那邊操作，為什麼會放任這樣？你看這個地方，這個是第三個，我們業者本身不自愛，把遊客當作一次性的肥羊這樣痛宰，誰受得了？針對國家公園管理處，請問劉部長這要怎麼加強？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，這個部分其實在8月以後已經有開始開罰，然後也跟業者要求要自律，同時我們現在跟屏東縣政府，包括地方鄉鎮公所，還有民代服務處一起來協調，看看未來怎麼樣處理，包括陽傘的部分以及機具、車輛的部分，儘量減少這個亂象，不要讓景觀上面覺得看起來好像到這個地方去，那麼漂亮的沙灘全部都在看陽傘，這是一個非常糟糕的景象。因為多次有網紅反映，所以事實上我們到現在為止已經開立了73張的勸導單，業者也願意按照我們所訂定的新方式重新招租有關陽傘租用的辦法。"],["蘇委員清泉：交通的部分，你一下子限速50公里，一下子60公里，一下子70公里，我看只有瘋子會這樣就算了，所以要抓好，不是說這樣一直亂抓，以為這樣就是好事，沒有這種事情。","院長，關於地價的問題，你可以放任這個地價一坪公告地價五十幾萬嗎？公告現值90萬，市價150萬、160萬、170萬、180萬，200萬也在喊，誰買得下去？只有你買得下去而已，我們是沒辦法。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告，剛剛你談的這幾個問題，我覺得終結的問題、最癥結的問題，就是國家公園的管理要非常地到位，剛剛部長已經談到了。"],["蘇委員清泉：第一個國家公園，第一個！搞到現在這樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得它是最癥結的問題。至於交通的問題，我請陳部長好好去規劃，交通號誌重新地檢討一下……"],["蘇委員清泉：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是在這個觀光地區維持交通的重要性，我們還是要兼顧。至於土地的問題，如果沒有那麼多人會去，地價不可能那麼高，但去的要好好……"],["蘇委員清泉：外面的人去買、去那邊炒作。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，就要考慮到在當地是不是有這樣的條件，我們很難用公的權力去壓抑這個地價，但是我們要把周遭的環境管理得好，我想會符合它的價值。"],["蘇委員清泉：恆春鎮一棟樓房1,200萬、1,300萬，現在漲價了，以前不到1,000萬；那裡一間房子、一棟房子要5,000萬、6,000萬、7,000萬、8,000萬，這是「裝肖仔」嘛！沒有那種條件。","最後，這裡還有五里亭機場，院長，你有沒有聽過？以前恆春的五里亭機場一個禮拜還有三十幾班飛機，現在一班都沒有，所以你要考慮看要怎麼恢復，以前是從松山機場飛到恆春。","再來是我們的屏南快速道路，院長你也有去那裡宣示說要開始了，那個路廊也決定了，我建議在高架高速路的下面做單車道，全長85公里，可以騎到哪裡就休息到哪裡、吃到哪裡，這樣也可以振興，那是另外一個族群，這是一個好的事情。院長，考量一下，下面用單車，有很多地方都在做，部長，可以吧？"],["陳部長世凱：我們來研究。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，兩位請回。請衛福部邱部長。"],["主席：衛福部邱部長。"],["蘇委員清泉：快點，剩3分鐘而已。院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["蘇委員清泉：今天早上有聽到幾位委員在質詢，也講了很多我們健保的事情，我跟邱部長有很多對話，我跟他講，他就像和尚一樣，我對著和尚唸經是沒有用的，因為他比我還會唸，所以我今天要對院長你。我們的醫療有沒有機會、有沒有希望、有沒有救，就要看你了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我常說過去30年健保保障國人，現在我們要回頭保障健保，所以一定要有救，而且一定要救得起來，目前我覺得體質還是在我們大家能夠接受的範圍內。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，我跟你說，我們上次的主決議說，明年6月30日之前要到0.95，我本來是堅持1點1元的，但是被罵了，到後來我們也是撤回來，三黨都同意要不然就用主決議、怎麼樣，我們都同意，反正主要是醫界可以走得下去、活得下去，這樣就好了。那是明年6月30日的事情，但是現在就活不下去了。你知不知道目前的點值剩多少？0.82！0.82！要拿一些出來救啦！我要跟院長報告的就是，你的基金裡面還有200億，可以拿一些來補。","現在健保署怎麼操作，你知道嗎？它就說，譬如三招，第一招就是斷頭，我要給你1億，結果你做1億2，你的2,000萬就自己斷頭，斷頭之後，它就給你抽案子來嚴審，審完之後還不夠，達不到邱泰源說的0.95，後面再叫你共同分攤扣除，叫作攤扣，和音樂的Time Code不一樣，這樣還叫你要攤扣，有7億、8億，也有10億，把點值拉到0.92、0.93，很好看！如果要用這樣的方式來殺，1.0也沒問題，1.1塊錢也沒問題，所以現在都是假象，再來會造成什麼？造成自費的醫療院所巧立名目，自費的就越來越高，我敢講醫療院所巧立名目，這是很大的挑戰喔！但是不這樣它活不了，與其要這樣，不如把事實顯現出來，健保署很聰明，你要什麼它就給你什麼，你要0.95，它就給你殺到0.95，嚴審、斷頭、共同攤扣。所以今年已經不行了，要從健保基金裡面拿一些出來補今年現在的點值，不然的話到年底都出問題了，部長，是不是這樣？剩下38秒而已，你快點講。"],["邱部長泰源：因為點值當然是有比較低，我們政府其實都有想辦法來改善這個環境下應該有的權益，尤其現在的行政院，無論是今年還是未來都用盡了努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，我今天把這個問題提出來，因為我本身比邱部長還資深，所以我直接跟你說答案就好了，你今年一定要拿一些出來補，不然今年會連0.9、0.88都到不了，真的會越來越糟糕，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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許縣長爭取的39億那這次有核定了33億多那這次爭取的這個經費"},{"start":59.684,"end":75.128,"text":"總質詢"},{"start":76.039,"end":95.93,"text":"請教一下左院長那在這次雙十國慶的一個主事決那在設計美學跟國家的象徵意涵的話如果讓你來打一個分數那就我們這次的國慶的主辦跟這個意向還有這些辛苦同仁的籌劃那我想問一下院長你可以打幾分我常常說這個"},{"start":101.75,"end":127.867,"text":"藝術是非常主觀的像這種技術是非常不打折的藝術非常主觀你列出來是歷年來雙十國慶的各種的標誌我想大家可以自己看自己喜歡的這個早有預期但是就這一次來講如果打個分數的話那你覺得打個幾分覺得適合我覺得能夠把一個活動辦好的話每一個都象徵圓滿"},{"start":129.44,"end":141.35,"text":"所以說其實這個分數的話就不太方便直接打分數就是掛在胸上掛在心上但是還是期許這次雙十國慶一樣圓滿成功那一定要非常圓滿成功謝謝"},{"start":142.867,"end":163.934,"text":"那我接著要針對地方的議題兩個議題先來跟您就教第一就是我們張南大橋的一個可行性那在之前的話其實在上市交通委員會來辦考察本席有邀這交通委員會那時候是李孟彥部長來看我們這個地點的時候他這個是從彰化到南投"},{"start":164.554,"end":190.726,"text":"以前原本預計要後續要做一個是快速道路那因為南投的鄉親有時候要坐高鐵必須要繞到雲林的林內再走到二水再到田中才能夠來搭乘高鐵非常的不方便那所以說在這個張能大橋未來也會連接著到包括彰化到海邊海線的一個貫穿那所以這個張能大橋是本來也就在一個規劃上"},{"start":191.846,"end":207.514,"text":"那這一次的考察有爭取到這個可行性評估的計畫那也謝謝車交通部也是核定了預計就是將近800萬的經費還配合縣府的配額款來做可行性評估那因為這樣子的一個重大建設是"},{"start":208.234,"end":208.794,"text":"請部長瞭解說明一下"},{"start":229.804,"end":258.533,"text":"好 這個張南大橋委員也爭取了一段時間我看照片裡面李部長當時也有到現場跟我們的許縣長那我知道南投的鄉親很希望有這座大橋那彰化其實也有這種聲音也希望說有一個張南大橋對於彰化的鄉親要往南投去也比較方便而且他如果要去高速公路有時候從南投這邊可能會相對近一點所以這個部分中央也已經核定了這個可行性研究的經費那這個部分我們積極來推動協助地方一起來趕快做可言"},{"start":259.413,"end":285.774,"text":"所以說 謝謝因為政策的推動尤其是建設的推動大型建設已經是延續的所以部長對於這個張南大橋也會延續當初李孟彥部長一樣表達支持是沒有錯那左院長也是表達支持有助於地方的我們都一起來研究讓他能夠成為一個地方大家需要的建設好 謝謝因為這個是裡面有太多的故事但是總是南投鄉親的一個寄望"},{"start":287.072,"end":312.433,"text":"OK 那我們下一題就是我們在地方上面南投縣其實在這個女壘啊她的國家代表隊從2006年起一半的隊員都是出於南投那在各個包括亞運世界盃、亞洲盃都有非常好的成績但是其實在這個我們看到我們的一個重要的培訓選手的地方是南投的福星球場福星壘球場"},{"start":313.214,"end":313.374,"text":"主席"},{"start":331.745,"end":347.933,"text":"夠友好 經費要夠 建設要有 還有心思訓練水平未來要好那所以說在這個南投縣的這個福星能夠打造為我國女壘選手的培訓基地是不是可以拜託我們的院長來表達支持"},{"start":349.344,"end":363.239,"text":"這個福星球場在2023年也是亞洲盃女子壘球的比賽場地可見除了硬體之外藍投歷年來也有相當多的民間跟學校所籌組的女壘球隊"},{"start":365.862,"end":365.982,"text":"主席"},{"start":382.469,"end":382.649,"text":"主席"},{"start":400.333,"end":424.64,"text":"是不是就可以來支持相關這個我們福興這個場地的一些相關的整建因為現在有對尼磊有一些階段性的進度已經在進行是不是要補充一下謝謝委員關心這個怎麼樣讓南投能夠這個福興球場能夠成為我們包含南投成為尼磊的一個選手的一個培訓基地確實這個體委會提署"},{"start":426.961,"end":435.193,"text":"提署這一個我們今年也補助了兩百七十幾萬對這個相關的一些場地跟設施做一些改善以上補充"},{"start":436.141,"end":464.064,"text":"那因為在我們地方上包括壘球運動是我們潘玉璇副議長包括羅理事長體育會理事長都非常積極用心在推動也非常有成果那也希望這個未來在這個培訓基地的部分我們不只經費在將來升個體育系運動發展部之後也能夠在那麼好的成績的這個女壘包括場地能夠持續給予支持是不是可以"},{"start":467.78,"end":468.18,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":490.336,"end":511.141,"text":"好那接著要就叫我們院長那等下也會跟這經濟部長相關那也有請部長那在審計部公布112年中央政府總預算審核報告揭露總預算跟特別稅出稅入的並計之後2024到2029年均為短差那2024年預計短處高達4905億"},{"start":518.263,"end":533.996,"text":"那在過去的8年許多的特別預算還進行這些許多比較算是撒錢跟討好的過程那也造成這個政府中央政府的財政長期負擔的一個非常沉重"},{"start":534.716,"end":553.869,"text":"所以過去來講說五年超徵稅收經濟表現良好但是在審計部提出的報告卻指出了未來五年將會入不敷出甚至經營的經費短處將近五千億元那在這樣子的美化的數字底下還是都是百姓的血跟淚"},{"start":554.997,"end":569.951,"text":"那過去所支出的這些錢未來還是要還的那不管是子孫要還甚至曾孫要還那這些錢要怎麼花花了多少負債多少中央政府還是必須要跟民眾講清楚當然"},{"start":570.893,"end":585.235,"text":"這個部分牽扯到過去的行政院長或行政團隊左院長你是520之後就任現在也是在幫過去的施政問題現在要去做改善 包括部長也是"},{"start":585.996,"end":614.074,"text":"那所以說還是要跟民眾講清楚因為國人不知道的是國債中已經創下了6兆4128億元平均未來每人都要負擔27.4萬元的歷史新高那再次總預算編列了3兆多創下了最高紀錄但是錢必須要花在刀口上因為這些稅收跟民脂民膏就是得來不易但是國人還在生活上還需要有更多的改善"},{"start":615.728,"end":643.88,"text":"所以跟軍隊組織總署所統計的八月的CPI的年增率阿2.36已經連續4個月突破了2%的通膨脊界線不管現在年輕人在外食還食物類房租甚至看醫生的掛號費、電費、機票、交通服務費等都在調漲最低工資不管調整錢包的鈔票一樣進了馬上就花出去所以其實現在民生過得還是蠻辛苦"},{"start":644.6,"end":644.76,"text":"主席"},{"start":675.581,"end":689.612,"text":"本席要針對電價的問題來進行討論但是在問電價的問題許多民眾在關心這院長官邸的電費目前台電調查的結果如何那這位警方我藉這個機會在請假電價問題之前先讓院長能夠說明一下"},{"start":694.576,"end":709.187,"text":"謝謝我們都相信台灣經濟的體質本質上是很好的只要全民繼續的努力大家一起團結那我們在高科技的發展以及我們對中小企業做更多的包容成長的社會投資跟國家的投資應該會穩定的發展"},{"start":710.808,"end":737.674,"text":"那麼過去有一些用特別預算來支應的國家重大建設因為它卻有其必要像前瞻基礎建設到底是讓整個地方在短時間內8年當中成就了相當多的這個地方的建設但是今年明年我們的預算第一個我們沒有編特別的預算我們只執行了前面特別預算的最後幾期的這個執行所以我們的預算的額度會稍微的擴大那這個也請大院能夠支持"},{"start":738.514,"end":756.416,"text":"我們為了讓這個社會的正義能夠更普遍的去成長發展我們也對這個最低工資予以提升那麼對社會的包容成長我們做很多的貢獻我們預計本來預計到年底我們的CPI會穩定下降但是因為現在颱風又將來臨"},{"start":758.308,"end":787.09,"text":"我們一定要在非常可控的範圍內我們再謹慎的去評估是不是這個物價的波動不要超越我們原來的預計甚至做有效的控管我覺得這個才是穩定民生 照顧民生最重要的好 那院長關底的部分要不要臺電的報告做個回應謝謝委員再度的關心我們確實請臺電檢查了關底所有的電器用品當中確實發生一些比較老舊的電器用品包括冷氣在內"},{"start":788.231,"end":807.47,"text":"他確實是相當的耗電那秘書處已經在這個時候把所有的老舊的這個冷氣都已經更換成新的那我們希望說有新的節能的這個電器用品再加上人為能夠更加的去節約用電未來關底的用電我們會持續的關心"},{"start":809.325,"end":813.649,"text":"我們對電價有幾個原則一個是反應成本一個是照顧民生穩定物價跟節能減碳那只有他他一直往他的成本價來賣給國內的工業用戶"},{"start":832.321,"end":844.031,"text":"那它就會比較有健全的財務但是民生的部分我們會用更多的國家政策跟預算來做平穩的過程那這個部分臺電經濟部在這兩天跟電價審議委員會的討論當中都做了詳細的規劃那在今年度的話電價還會再漲價嗎哪一天今年度"},{"start":852.236,"end":854.277,"text":"明年的話 未來的話還是會持續的調整"},{"start":875.253,"end":896.946,"text":"未來的部分我們當然是看整體的這個狀況這個我想是院長做決定我們基於這個院長的指示那麼這一次名稱的部分然後小的這個生意小商圈甚至於工業也是一樣如果他是衰退的這個工業的話我們大概也不漲"},{"start":898.676,"end":907.303,"text":"我們這一次比較調高的本來是預定要調高14%但是電價審議委員他們最後做出來的一個決定就是只漲12.5%那麼總體來講我們大概有96%的是沒有漲的96%的用電戶是沒有漲"},{"start":919.8,"end":945.803,"text":"這一個漲價的意思我們還是不是完全可以到賺錢的狀態不過我還是需要大院委員能夠協助我們改善台電的財務情況那部長有讓你充分的說明那導致你剛才也提到了為了調漲還是會在於院長怎麼指示"},{"start":946.53,"end":961.717,"text":"那最主要是 電價未來是不是不會再漲價 其實當然是民眾關心那包括這影響著這個包括相關的一個通膨或是大家一個民眾預期的心理"},{"start":963.134,"end":980.305,"text":"公務員報告我們是在討論的過程當中我們會先討論出幾項我們認為重要的原則把它文字化之後在審議委員會開會的時候由台電跟經濟部去做一些原則性大家的討論而不是在對最後的結果做任何的指示"},{"start":981.125,"end":1007.88,"text":"這一次我們的漲價影響的通膨只有0.03%所以跟這個委員報告這樣子的影響CPI其實是非常微弱的應該是不會影響這個物價的這個波動好 那我就直接接著就教像剛才有提到的這次反應名聲也需要說這個但是事實上民眾的生活目前確實是苦哈哈"},{"start":1008.735,"end":1013.5,"text":"那台天的黑洞不僅是政策的問題還有包括內部的問題那我就直接"},{"start":1015.091,"end":1039.305,"text":"針對之前立委提報在臺電大林電廠使用造假的防爆設備那多年來放水包庇相關工程約80億同樣的場址那民進黨的立委也提報大林電廠赤字560億買的爛的設備那這些錢卻完全無法使用那部長那這一案的關注性要如何解釋那以及說這個案子後續會怎麼處理"},{"start":1040.969,"end":1058.948,"text":"報告委員 您剛才指教的大陵電廠的部分我們現在到目前為止所看到的資料是符合規範但是如果我們現在已經積極介入了調查如果查到的是有不法的行徑我們當然是依法辦理"},{"start":1059.554,"end":1080.251,"text":"那我想這個部分因為畢竟朝野的立委都有提到那到最後的結果也要讓社會大眾也一併也能夠知道畢竟國會改革的話當初目前在走向視線那很多的弊案是要查就必須一定得查我相信在中央政府也同樣持著一樣的立場"},{"start":1081.527,"end":1082.188,"text":"臺電目前虧損的金額是多少?"},{"start":1107.538,"end":1134.509,"text":"目前在台電2024年前7月合計今年7月以前累虧是529億那扣掉撥補的部分目前累虧原本是達到4348億那所以台電的虧損是持續在增加不斷的那不同的發電方式每度的成本不同核電的話是1.1元天然氣是3.11元太陽光電是5元風電是7元那現在的台電"},{"start":1135.327,"end":1154.887,"text":"在今年4月電價上漲11%之後平均電價為3.4518但是購買天然氣光電跟風電其實都要賠錢的那剛才如部長所講就是中央政府近年來是連續編列的包括3000億在晶圓台電那我們當然也肯定台電的努力"},{"start":1155.666,"end":1176.499,"text":"那2023、2024年編列的﹐包括針織台電1500億、1000億此外2023年曾經以特別預算﹐補貼台電500億那要接著請問一下部長﹐到底一個合理的電價﹐要達到損益兩平的話﹐電價未來可能會朝向再漲到多少%"},{"start":1177.777,"end":1189.903,"text":"報告委員我想這個部分是這樣子就是說大家所關心的是核電的這個成本事實上以我們現在統計下來我們的這個機組大概影響的每度電是0.11"},{"start":1192.051,"end":1210.03,"text":"所以過去台電所造成的虧損並不是因為把核電關掉而造成這麼大的虧損而是因為二屋戰爭以後我們所買的材料不斷的上漲所以導致於我們這個台電因為成本太高"},{"start":1210.73,"end":1212.671,"text":"臺電的虧損也有包括過去的政策和相關的政策性的"},{"start":1233.312,"end":1255.533,"text":"補貼到時候導致臺電不斷的虧損所以在講惡霧戰爭的部分我覺得這個是但是近兩年但是這個的虧損是從以前不斷的造成但是錯誤的政策有時候是更可怕那沒關係因為依照學者所推估臺電必須要漲到4.83到5.17才能夠損一兩平但是這樣子的學者的推估"},{"start":1256.314,"end":1284.14,"text":"造成的是民眾的恐慌還有嚴重的通膨直接電價這樣子間接直接對於物價的影響至少就會在2.4%到3.6%的預測所以說這樣是國人無法承受那所以說目前來講這兩年有可能因為民生的一個苦民所苦那院長這邊也能夠在這兩年的話維持現在既有的電價而不會漲到5.17元嗎"},{"start":1287.481,"end":1311.019,"text":"我們現在是4.29所以這是調整之後那剛剛委員提到說臺電的補貼確實有過去對於學校醫院社福團體臺電都吸收了一些電費的這個負擔那以後要讓他財政健全就希望他回到目的世界主管機關去去做編列讓臺電不用承受太多的這樣的一個補貼的政策"},{"start":1311.619,"end":1340.212,"text":"另外就是如果沒有國際因素重要的影響這個原物料他就會比較穩定台積的經營就比較可以在可預控的範圍當中希望他財務健全其實跟院長就是回應一下如果說補學校社福團體的補貼的話其實大家相對的話都沒有問題的但是如果說是過去對於太陽能的一些政策的補貼那這樣子也是一個大的黑洞那這一塊來講的話其實不能漏了不提"},{"start":1340.936,"end":1353.011,"text":"那社福團體跟學校的話其實大家是沒有意見但是回歸民生那剛才所提到學者數據的指出的這個5.17的部分這兩年是不是不會調整到這個漲幅"},{"start":1354.508,"end":1376.596,"text":"因為這個是民眾他們所關心的目前台電的發電的成本就不會這麼高那這一次電價審議委員會通過的新的計算方式之後工業大戶的購電成本就接近於台電的成本但是一般民生用電還是相差蠻大所以我們未來如果用"},{"start":1378.103,"end":1398.537,"text":"政府的補貼的政策就會是去彌補這個民生的部分對工業的用電我們希望它使用者附會對方通貿不僅是電費包括明年2026年碳費也即將上路歐盟開了第一槍包括2026年對進口的高碳排的產品進行課稅"},{"start":1399.888,"end":1422.816,"text":"這也會增加企業的生產成本,進而又轉嫁到消費者身上,又是通膨上升我國在113年3月公布了台灣2050的碳排放路徑跟策略總說明之後包括在112年2月也公布了溫室氣體減量法修正為汽油變遷營運法,來做法治的基礎"},{"start":1423.677,"end":1423.737,"text":"主席"},{"start":1440.445,"end":1454.664,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們目前台灣已經進入碳定價的時代明年1月1號開始我們就會開始徵收碳費但是我們初期的碳費不會高目前是300塊到500塊還有一個優惠費率所以基本上我們有算過這個300塊或500塊或是說優惠費率的話"},{"start":1457.768,"end":1478.524,"text":"其實對於我們CPI影響比漲電價只有漲電價的十分之一左右所以影響不是很大但是如果這個企業因為他能夠少繳一點錢來提出自主減量計畫的話那個對我們減碳是可以減少14%的排碳量所以是非常有效的所以我們等於是說明年1月1號開始收開始收碳費好"},{"start":1479.625,"end":1500.6,"text":"那目前來講在地方政府他們也積極的在推動包括在台北市跟高雄市都已經發行了永續發展的債券台北市政府為了改善捷運的環境還在113年1月10號發行了社會責任債券兩億元後面分別有兩年期三年期五年期"},{"start":1501.36,"end":1514.097,"text":"那在高雄的部分他也在113年1月10號發行了兩年的綠色債券20億元那請問一下院長那中央政府是不是也要推動永續發展的債券"},{"start":1515.451,"end":1533.945,"text":"這個都是在環境部的這個規劃當中嗎第一個是我們現在在跟國發會爭取國發基金100億的綠色成長基金然後來協助這個產業來投資新的產業這個在進行當中希望明年可以過然後明年可以開始那另外一個是我們也動員了保險業的資金還有創投業的資金我們先從民間的資金產業的資金來帶動那目前來看的話這個的量"},{"start":1541.21,"end":1569.745,"text":"會比地方政府會大很多那當然啦我們也觀察很多的國家都有新的一些制度例如說像日本的氣候債券然後或是說美國的用減稅 IRA 的方式來處理那我們也都在討論當中那是永續發展債券的計畫中央政府的部分相關內容到時候我們在委員會再持續來討論那接著那要警教一下院長目前來講這國土計畫法那暫緩的部分其實現在你也知道"},{"start":1570.285,"end":1572.968,"text":"國土計畫法的這個上路問題我想大家應該要冷靜的來考慮而且要理性的來討論"},{"start":1590.123,"end":1607.879,"text":"我們知道現在還有9個縣市沒有送他的功能圖來這個是我們實際上最大的困難時間有限我大致上跟你說就是目前來講總統服務計劃法的執法有23項那其中14項完成9項還沒完成完成比例大概60.878"},{"start":1609.6,"end":1634.264,"text":"那相關的法律52部 總計94條文 涉及內政部 農業部 經濟部13個部會那目前來講 國土計畫的功能分區圖那其實也有許多縣市都有造成爭議所以說其實大家要理性討論沒有錯那可是目前來講造成許多縣市甚至不同政黨的立委也同樣反映這個需要再延期"},{"start":1634.912,"end":1653.923,"text":"那想要就效現在院長是不是應該要先暫緩還暫緩兩年之後才能夠比較有力的來推動依照現在國土計畫法的規定在明年的4月30號必須要那如果在立法院通過法律的修正延後兩年的話行政院這邊是不是可以配合"},{"start":1655.168,"end":1655.768,"text":"除了正確的訊息﹖還有充足的時間﹖"},{"start":1676.135,"end":1688.816,"text":"那如果立法院到時候大家通過了暫緩兩年的話是不是也可以請院長跟就是內政部這邊也能夠配合著來讓農民有更多的時間瞭解正確的訊息"},{"start":1689.705,"end":1710.718,"text":"有這樣的修法過程我想農業部內政部都會積極的在協商過程中表達我們的意見但是尊重大家討論的結果但是我希望說國土計畫法是一個對全國國家土地充分支援有效利用的一個上位概念的法律能夠早一天實施當然是我們可以完整的保存國家土地的利用價值"},{"start":1711.308,"end":1711.468,"text":"主席"},{"start":1726.67,"end":1749.218,"text":"充分的理解所以要充分了解農業部對農民的照顧對農民的照顧是非常多非常廣的對那需要一些時間所以說本席還是在這裡也帶南投這邊表達就是其實暫緩實施那如果修正法律修正通過之後還是希望行政院跟內政部都能夠配合那也都讓農民能夠有充分的時間"},{"start":1750.458,"end":1773.855,"text":"請簡短回答我們希望說能夠充分溝通然後充分討論那是不是要修法的話當然我們要跟大院的很多委員來探討但是如果你現在延緩兩年的時候那個爭議的議題還是在兩年以後我們還是需要再討論跟部長回覆一下現在連執法在中央單位都還沒有修正完成還有那麼多的單位需要溝通"},{"start":1774.355,"end":1777.397,"text":"許多的執法還在修正沒關係反正其實這個過程中也是告訴我們其實還是有很多需要準備的時間"},{"start":1788.749,"end":1814.763,"text":"那最後我要接著再跟那個院長這邊再提一下黃建斌委員之前所推動的這個觀光的方案那其實在剛才所提到的當然說爭取的這些建設跟這些補貼措施振興措施不分藍綠那是不是也讓院長來說明一下黃建斌委員包括在推動這個方案過去的努力而且以及予以肯定"},{"start":1815.694,"end":1816.114,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:30:27 - 15:01:07","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155045","gazette":{"lineno":1163,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（14時30分）謝謝主席，有請行政院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：游委員好。"],["游委員顥：院長好。在這裡本席還是要先表達一下，在凱米風災，院長跟副院長，還有包括工程會主委，還有交通部以及農業部第一時間來協助凱米風災，那時候許淑華許縣長爭取了39億，這次核定了三十三億多，這次爭取的經費也確實協助到南投，還是再次表達感謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們該做的責任。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。接著就教總質詢的部分，我們先看PPT，想要請教一下卓院長，這次雙十國慶的主視覺在設計美學跟國家象徵意涵，如果讓你來打一個分數，就我們這次國慶的主辦跟意象，還有這些辛苦同仁的籌劃，我想問一下院長，你可以打幾分？"],["卓院長榮泰：我常說藝術是非常主觀的，像這種技術是不打折的，藝術非常主觀，你列出來的是歷年來雙十國慶的各種標誌，我想大家可以自己看自己喜歡的。"],["游委員顥：這個早有預期。但是就這一次來講，如果打個分數的話，你覺得打幾分適合？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得能夠把一個活動辦好的話，每一個都象徵圓滿。"],["游委員顥：所以說這個分數就不太方便直接打就是了？"],["卓院長榮泰：掛在胸上、掛在心上。"],["游委員顥：但是還是期許這次雙十國慶要圓滿成功嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：那一定要非常圓滿成功。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。","我接著要針對地方的議題，兩個議題先來跟您就教。第一個是我們彰南大橋的可行性，之前交通委員會辦考察，本席有邀當時的李孟諺部長來看我們這個地點，它這個是從彰化到南投，原本預計後續要做一個快速道路，因為南投的鄉親有時候要坐高鐵，必須要繞到雲林的林內，再走到二水、再到田中，才能夠搭乘高鐵，非常的不方便。彰南大橋未來也會連接包括彰化到海邊，海線的貫穿，所以這個彰南大橋本來就在規劃中，這一次的考察有爭取到可行性評估計畫，也謝謝交通部核定了預計將近800萬的經費，配合縣府的配合款來做可行性評估。因為這樣子的一個重大建設關係到南投跟彰化，其實這兩個縣市需要有一個重大建設，也能夠讓我們南投的鄉親搭高鐵更為便利。所以本席想在這裡請院長跟部長是不是持續來支持彰南大橋的推動？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長，你了解，說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。關於彰南大橋，委員也爭取了一段時間，我們看照片裡面，李部長當時也有到現場，跟我們的許縣長，我知道南投的鄉親很希望有這座大橋，彰化其實也有這種聲音，也希望有一個彰南大橋，對於彰化的鄉親要往南投去比較方便，而且他如果要去高速公路，有時候從南投這邊可能會相對近一點，所以這個部分中央也已經核定了可行性研究經費，這個部分我們積極來推動，協助地方一起趕快做可研。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。因為政策的推動，尤其是建設的推動，大型建設一定是延續的，所以部長對於這個彰南大橋也會延續當初李孟諺部長的政策，一樣表達支持？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["游委員顥：那卓院長也是表達支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：有助於地方的，我們都一起來研究，讓它能夠成為一個地方大家需要的建設。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝，因為這裡面有太多的故事，但是總是南投鄉親的寄望。","下一題是關於我們南投縣，女壘國家代表隊從2006年起有一半的隊員都是出自於南投，在各個賽事包括亞運、世界盃、亞洲盃都有非常好的成績，我們看到有一個重要的培訓選手的地方，就是南投的福興壘球場，但是南投縣在爭取球場的整建、人工地皮及相關設備方面，目前來講都還是非常的辛苦，因為未來我們要成立體育暨運動發展部，本席在此就提出三個期望：夠、有、好──經費要夠、建設要有、薪資訓練水平要好，所以把南投縣的福興球場打造為我國女壘選手的培訓基地，是不是可以拜託我們院長表達支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個福興球場在2023年也是亞洲盃女子壘球的比賽場地，除了硬體之外，南投歷年來也有相當多民間跟學校所籌組的女壘球隊，可見一定有相當多的人才，在體育暨運動發展部的籌備過程當中，我們一直強調全民體育、全民運動，還有運動產業、國際競技，對於這三項我們會同時以一樣的比重來推動，因此，有這樣好的人才在地方，而且有舉辦國際競技的經驗跟場地，如果能夠在當地適度的來加強，應該是符合未來的政策的，這個部分我們會來繼續研究看看。"],["游委員顥：那是不是就可以來支持我們福興這個場地相關的整建，讓我們……"],["卓院長榮泰：體育署現在對女壘有一些階段性的進度已經在進行。"],["游委員顥：部長是不是要補充一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心怎麼樣讓南投福興球場能夠成為女壘選手的培訓基地，確實體育署今年也補助了兩百七十幾萬改善相關的場地跟設施，做以上補充。"],["游委員顥：因為在我們地方上，潘一全副議長還有體育會羅理事長都非常積極用心在推動壘球運動，也非常有成果，也希望未來有關培訓基地的部分，不只經費，將來體育署升格體育暨運動發展部之後，也能夠對成績那麼好的女壘包括場地持續給予支持，是不是可以？這個總是需要表個態。"],["鄭部長英耀：當然我想本來女壘長期在南投就確實是一個非常有特色的運動項目，體育署會來……"],["游委員顥：支持成為女壘選手的培育基地？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。","接著要就教我們院長，因為這也跟經濟部相關，所以也有請部長。在審計部公布112年中央政府總預算審核報告，揭露總預算跟特別歲出、歲入併計之後，從2024到2029年均為短差，2024年短絀預計高達4,905億，在過去8年有許多特別預算在執行，算是撒錢跟討好的過程，也造成中央政府長期的財政負擔沉重，以過去來講，雖說5年超徵稅收，經濟表現良好，但是在審計部提出的報告中卻指出了未來5年將會入不敷出，甚至今年的經費短絀將高達5,000億元，在這樣經過美化的數字底下，還是百姓的血跟淚。過去所支出的這些錢，未來還是要還的，不管是子孫要還，甚至曾孫要還，因此這些錢要怎麼花？花了多少、負債多少，中央政府還是必須跟民眾講清楚。當然這個部分也牽扯到過去的行政院長或是行政團隊，卓院長，你是520之後就任，現在也是在幫過去這些施政的問題去改善，包括部長也是。所以還是要跟民眾講清楚，因為國人不知道的是國債已經創下了6兆4,128億元，未來每人平均都要負擔27.4萬元的歷史新高，這次總預算編列了三兆多，創下了最高紀錄，但是錢必須要花在刀口上，因為這些稅收、民脂民膏得來不易，國人在生活上還需要有更多改善。","主計總處統計8月CPI的年增率是2.36%，已經連續4個月突破了2%通膨警戒線。現在年輕人外食，還有食物類、房租，甚至看醫生的掛號費、電費、機票、交通服務費等都在調漲，最低工資調整，錢包的鈔票一樣進了馬上就花出去，所以其實現在民生過得還是蠻辛苦。如果要苦民所苦，那我們要回歸到電價的漲價，不僅是經濟部需要檢討以前的政策，同樣的在內部的防弊，也都要進行檢討跟查弊，因為這些錢是全民買單，而且電價可能就是帶動通膨的火車頭。新青安政策，目前在年輕購屋的部分，也讓大家感覺起來比較迷惘。","本席要針對電價的問題進行討論，但是問電價的問題，許多民眾在關心院長官邸的電費，目前台電調查的結果如何？最後幾分鐘我藉這個機會，在請教電價問題之前，先讓院長能夠說明一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。我們都相信，臺灣經濟的體質本質上是很好的，只要全民繼續努力，大家一起團結，那我們在高科技的發展，以及我們對中小企業做更多包容成長的社會投資跟國家的投資，應該會穩定發展。過去有一些用特別預算支應的國家重大建設確有其必要，像前瞻基礎建設到底是讓整個地方在短時間內、8年當中成就了相當多的地方建設。但是明年我們的預算，第一個，我們沒有編特別預算，只執行了前面特別預算的最後幾期，所以我們預算的額度會稍微擴大，這個也請大院能夠支持。我們為了讓社會正義能夠更普遍成長、發展，也對最低工資予以提升，對社會的包容成長我們做很多的貢獻。我們本來預計到年底CPI會穩定下降，但是因為現在颱風又將來臨，我們一定要在非常可控的範圍內，再謹慎去評估是不是這個物價的波動不要超越原來的預計，甚至做有效控管，我覺得這個才是穩定民生、照顧民生最重要的。"],["游委員顥：院長，那有關官邸部分台電的報告，要不要做個回應？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員再度關心，我們確實請台電檢查了官邸所有的電器用品，當中確實發現一些比較老舊的電器用品，包括冷氣在內，確實是相當耗電，秘書處已經在這個時候把所有老舊的冷氣都更換成新的，希望有新的節能電器用品，再加上人為能夠更加節約用電，未來官邸的用電我們會持續關心。"],["游委員顥：好。那本席現在就教，電價在未來有沒有可能不再漲價，還是會持續調漲？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對電價有幾個原則，一個是反映成本，一個是照顧民生、穩定物價跟節能減碳，只要它一直往它的成本價賣給國內的工業用戶，那它就比較會有健全的財務；但是民生的部分，我們會用更多的國家政策跟預算來做平穩的過程，這個部分台電、經濟部在這兩天跟電價審議委員會的討論當中都做了詳細的規劃。"],["游委員顥：那今年度電價還會再漲價嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：哪一年？"],["游委員顥：今年度。"],["卓院長榮泰：今年就是……"],["郭部長智輝：今年，報告委員，昨天電價審議委員已經做出決定，有關民生跟一些小生意，包括夜市、包括賣場，這些都不漲價。"],["游委員顥：那明年的話呢？未來還是會持續調漲嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：未來的部分我們當然是看整體的狀況，這個我想是院長做決定，我們基於院長的指示，這一次民生的部分，然後小生意、小商圈，甚至於工業也是一樣，如果它是衰退的工業的話，我們大概也不漲；我們這一次比較調高的，本來是預定要調高14%，但是電價審議委員最後做出來的決定就是只漲12.5%。總體來講大概有96%的用電戶是沒有漲的，這一次漲價，台電還不是完全可以達到賺錢的狀態，所以還是需要大院委員協助我們改善台電的財務情況。"],["游委員顥：部長，本席有讓你充分說明了。剛才你也提到了，未來的調漲還是會在於院長怎麼指示，最主要的是電價未來是不是不會再漲，這當然是民眾所關心的，也包括會影響相關的通膨或者是大家的預期心理。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們是在討論的過程當中先討論出幾項我們認為重要的原則，把它文字化之後，在審議委員會開會的時候，由台電跟經濟部去做一些原則性、大家的討論，而不是在對最後的結果做任何的指示。"],["郭部長智輝：這一次漲價影響的通膨只有0.03%，所以跟委員報告，這樣對CPI的影響其實是非常微弱的，應該是不會影響物價的波動。"],["游委員顥：好，那我就直接繼續就教。像剛才有提到的，這是反映民生，但事實上民眾的生活目前確實是苦哈哈。台電的黑洞不僅是政策的問題，還有包括內部的問題，我就直接針對之前立委踢爆台電大林電廠使用造假的防爆設備，多年來放水、包庇，相關工程約80億，同樣的場址，民進黨的立委也踢爆大林電廠斥資560億買了爛的設備，花了這些錢卻完全無法使用。部長對這個案子要如何解釋？後續會怎麼處理？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您剛才指教的這個大林電廠的部分，我們到目前為止所看到的資料是符合規範的，但是我們現在已經積極介入調查，如果查到有不法的行徑，我們當然是依法辦理。"],["游委員顥：這個部分因為畢竟朝野立委都有提到，最後的結果也要讓社會大眾能夠一併知道，畢竟國會改革目前走上釋憲了，很多弊案要查就一定得查，我相信中央政府也抱持同樣的立場，在內部的監督管理不能亂花錢，不能讓百姓因為這種事情而買單。","在目前廢核的情況之下，電力的成本不斷上升，台電目前虧損的金額是多少？"],["郭部長智輝：現在因為有撥補，所以台電目前虧損的金額大概來到3,000億左右。"],["游委員顥：根據2024年前7個月合計的數據，台電今年7月以前累虧是529億，扣掉撥補的部分，目前累虧原本是達到4,348億，所以台電的虧損是持續不斷在增加的。不同發電方式每度的成本不同，核電是1.1元，天然氣是3.11元，太陽光電是5元，風電是7元，台電在今年4月電價上漲11%之後，平均電價為3.4518元，但購買天然氣、光電跟風電其實都是要賠錢的。如部長剛才所講，中央政府近年來連續編列了3,000億在金援台電，我們當然也肯定台電的努力，2023年和2024年編列了包括增資台電1,500億和1,000億，此外，2023年也曾經以特別預算補貼台電500億。再接著請問一下部長，到底一個合理的電價要達到損益兩平的話，電價未來可能會朝向再漲到百分之多少？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個部分是這樣子，大家所關心的是核電的成本，事實上以我們現在統計下來，我們的這個機組大概影響的每度電是0.11，所以過去台電所造成的虧損，並不是因為把核電關掉而造成這麼大的虧損，而是因為俄烏戰爭以後我們所買的材料不斷的上漲，所以導致我們台電的成本太高，但是售價的部分，因為我們又要讓我們的用電戶不會遭到太大的衝擊，所以大部分都是由公司來吸收。但是在未來您所關心的電價部分……"],["游委員顥：跟部長討論一下，台電的虧損也有包括過去的政策和相關政策性的補貼，導致台電不斷的虧損，所以在講俄烏戰爭的部分，我覺得這個是近兩年，但是這個虧損是從以前不斷的造成，大家說錯誤的政策有時候更可怕，那沒關係，因為依照學者推估，台電必須要漲到4.83到5.17才能夠損益兩平，但是學者這樣的推估，造成的是民眾的恐慌，還有嚴重的通膨，電價這樣子間接、直接對於物價的影響，至少就會在2.4%到3.6%的預測，而這樣是國人無法承受的，所以目前來講，有可能因為對於民生的部分苦民所苦，所以院長這邊能夠在這兩年維持現在既有的電價，而不會漲到5.17元嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在是4.29，這是調整之後，那剛剛委員提到台電的補貼，確實有，過去對於學校、醫院、社福團體，台電都吸收了一些電費的負擔，以後要讓它財政健全，就希望它回到目的事業主管機關去編列，讓台電不用承受太多的補貼政策。另外，如果沒有國際因素重要的影響，原物料就會比較穩定，台電的經營就比較可以在可預控的範圍當中，希望它財務健全。"],["游委員顥：跟院長回應一下，如果說對於學校、社福團體補貼的話，其實大家相對都沒有問題的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["游委員顥：但是如果說是過去對於太陽能的一些政策的補貼也是一個大的黑洞，這一塊來講的話，其實不能漏了不提。社福團體跟學校的話，其實大家沒有意見，但是回歸民生，剛才依照學者數據指出的5.17的部分，這兩年是不是不會調整到這個漲幅？因為這個是民眾他們所關心的，大家人心惶惶。"],["卓院長榮泰：目前台電的發電成本就不會這麼高，這一次電價審議委員會通過新的計算方式之後，工業大戶的購電成本就接近台電的成本了，但是一般民生用電還是相差滿大，所以我們未來如果用政府的補貼政策，就會是去彌補民生的部分，對工業的用電，我們希望是使用者付費。"],["游委員顥：好。對抗通膨不僅是電費，包括明年2025年碳費也即將上路，歐盟開了第一槍，包括2026年對進口高碳排的產品進行課稅，這也都會增加企業的生產成本，金額又轉嫁到消費者身上，又是通膨上升。我國在111年3月公布了臺灣2050的碳排放路徑跟策略總說明，之後在112年2月也公布了溫室氣體減量法修正為氣候變遷因應法，來作為相關法制的基礎。本席想要就教，在目前因應碳排，也算是能夠抗通膨、節能減碳的這個政策上，目前我們中華民國中央政府建構了什麼樣的綠色金融機制或是推動措施？"],["卓院長榮泰：請彭部長說明。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，其實目前臺灣已經進入碳定價的時代，明年1月1號我們就會開始徵收碳費，但是我們初期的碳費不會高，目前是300塊到500塊，還有一個優惠費率。基本上我們有算過這個300塊或500塊或是優惠費率的部分，其實對於我們的CPI影響只有漲電價的十分之一左右，所以影響不是很大，但是如果這個企業因為它能夠少繳一點錢而提出自主減量計畫的話，對於減碳可以減少14%的排碳量，是非常有效的，所以我們是明年1月1號開始收碳費。"],["游委員顥：好。目前地方政府也積極在推動，包括臺北市跟高雄市都已經發行了永續發展的債券，臺北市政府為了改善捷運的環境，在113年1月10號發行了社會責任債券2億元，分別有兩年期、三年期、五年期；高雄也在113年1月10號發行了兩年的綠色債券20億元。請問院長，中央政府是不是也要推動永續發展的債券？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，這個都在環境部的規劃當中。"],["游委員顥：請部長回答。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個是我們現在在跟國發會爭取國發基金100億的綠色成長基金，協助產業來投資新的產業，這個在進行當中，希望明年可以過，明年可以開始。另外一個是我們也動員了保險業的資金，還有創投業的資金，我們先從民間的資金、產業的資金來帶動，目前來看，這個量會比地方政府大很多，當然我們也觀察很多國家都有一些新的制度，例如像日本的氣候債券，或是美國用減稅IRA的方式來處理，我們也都在討論當中。"],["游委員顥：關於永續發展債券的計畫，中央政府的相關內容到時候我們在委員會再持續來討論。","接著要請教院長關於國土計畫法暫緩的部分，其實現在你也知道，倉促上路對許多縣市造成了很多困擾跟爭議，請教院長，目前還有多少子法尚未完成？"],["卓院長榮泰：有關國土計畫法的上路問題，我想大家應該要冷靜的來考慮，而且要理性的來討論，我們知道現在還有9個縣市沒有送功能圖來，這個是實際上最大的困難。"],["游委員顥：院長，因為時間有限，我大致上跟你說，目前來講，國土計畫法的子法共有23項，其中14項完成，9項還沒完成，完成比例大概60.87%，相關的法律52部，總計94條條文，涉及內政部、農業部、經濟部等13個部會，目前國土計畫的功能分區圖其實也在許多縣市都有造成爭議。所以大家要理性討論沒有錯，可是目前造成許多縣市甚至不同政黨的立委也同樣反映這個需要再延期，想要就教一下院長，是不是應該要先暫緩，暫緩兩年之後才能夠比較有力的來推動？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照現在國土計畫法的規定，在明年的4月30號必須要……"],["游委員顥：如果在立法院通過法律修正延後兩年的話，行政院這邊是不是可以配合？"],["卓院長榮泰：在此之前，我們還是極力的、積極的跟地方溝通，希望功能圖能夠儘快送來。"],["游委員顥：這沒有問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我是希望在溝通的過程當中要給廣大的農民朋友們一個正確的訊息，而不要告訴他們說，國土計畫法一旦實施，農民永世不得翻身，這種論調絕對不要再發生。"],["游委員顥：除了正確的訊息，還有充足的時間，如果立法院到時候大家通過了暫緩兩年的話，是不是也可以請院長跟內政部也能夠配合，讓農民有更多的時間了解正確的訊息？"],["卓院長榮泰：有這樣的修法過程，我想農業部、內政部都會積極的在協商過程中表達我們的意見，尊重大家討論的結果，但是國土計畫法是一個對全國國家土地資源充分有效利用的上位概念的法律，能夠早一天實施，當然我們可以完整的保存國家土地的利用價值。"],["游委員顥：我們希望在實施的過程也能夠把爭議減少到最小，同時也讓縣市政府推動，以及能夠讓農民跟各個會使用到這些土地的民眾都做最充分的理解。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以要充分了解農業部對農民的照顧是非常多、非常廣的。"],["游委員顥：有時候事緩則圓，也需要一些時間啦！本席在這裡也代南投表達，建議暫緩實施，如果法律修正通過之後，還是希望行政院跟內政部都能夠配合，也讓農民能夠有充分的時間。"],["卓院長榮泰：請內政部答復一下好不好？"],["游委員顥：請簡短回答。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們希望能夠充分溝通、充分討論，至於是不是要修法，當然我們要跟大院很多委員來探討，但是如果你現在延緩兩年，爭議的議題還是在，兩年以後我們還是需要在……"],["游委員顥：跟部長回復一下，現在連子法在中央單位都還沒有修正完成，還有那麼多的單位需要溝通。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們的國土計畫法現在只剩下一項還沒有對外公告，其他的部分是在預告當中，快預告完成了。"],["游委員顥：沒有，許多的子法還在修正，沒關係！這個過程中也是在告訴我們，其實還是有很多需要準備的時間。","最後，我要接著再跟院長再提一下黃建賓委員之前所推動的觀光方案，其實如同剛才所提到的，他說，爭取的這些建設跟補貼措施、振興措施，不分藍綠，是不是也讓院長來說明一下黃建賓委員過去推動這個方案的努力，並予以肯定？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有問題，地方上需要中央政府跟地方來合作的，我們都願意，像我記得委員對於南投的茶葉博覽會也非常重視，過幾天我們就會見面。"],["游委員顥：對，10月5日到10月13日是南投的茶葉博覽會，謝謝院長那時候提供了800萬的經費，也邀請院長到時候來茶葉博覽會。"],["主席：謝謝游委員，也謝謝卓院長。","下一位請蘇清泉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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sense吧部長"},{"start":507.775,"end":533.752,"text":"這個是的確 我想法院一定是根據訴訟法第7色的規定來做一個懲罰來羈押部長 重罪不是羈押的唯一理由 這你可以去隨便問一下一個檢察官你不能犯這種最低階的錯誤這個我們不是低階錯誤 我們就是就法論法好啦 沒關係 我不跟你爭辯反正我告訴你就是這樣 重罪不是唯一羈押的理由所以這些人有可能會被法院放掉 那你們有沒有因應之道"},{"start":537.56,"end":539.521,"text":"如果法院不押你們有沒有因應之道"},{"start":568.12,"end":591.907,"text":"委員您也是擔任過檢察官你也知道跟法院之間這種關係法院真的不押檢察官也沒有辦法但是我認為這幾個案件他除了是一個嚴重之罪之外他都經過確定的審判所以很確定他在這個行為人必須負這個責任我認為法院還是會做最清楚的如果需要的話最清楚的決定"},{"start":599.144,"end":604.949,"text":"除非法院有判決無罪要釋放之外只要判決是有罪的我認為法院會押"},{"start":605.899,"end":626.733,"text":"好不好那你認為法官押那我現在問你說法官如果不押因為依照刑事訴訟法規定即要有他一定的要件那依照我來看現行的這些人他符合要件不是每個人都百分之百符合所以常常檢察官認為要押法官就沒有押嘛那如果今天法官沒有押的情況下把人"},{"start":627.614,"end":654.037,"text":"沒有其他的理由了那我只是在請教法務部有沒有因應的作為我相信我相信那就沒有意思了部長院長大家都內行人不用在那邊講外行話法院如果不押的話法務部請問有什麼作為題目就那麼簡單我不認為這些已經經過三審定言的案件法院的判決會的結果會有會有不押的一個情形"},{"start":656.348,"end":656.588,"text":"我也是嘆為觀止阿"},{"start":684.888,"end":708.531,"text":"這我想全國的這37個死刑犯他所造成的61條人命的家屬大概不能接受你們的這個意見第二個問題請教院長跟部長執行他們判決死刑確定之後收容的這段時間將來可不可以如果將來改判無期徒刑的話或改判有期徒刑的話可不可以折抵刑期收容的期間"},{"start":710.971,"end":725.172,"text":"這個因為根據刑法的規定必須要執行之後才有折抵的問題那現在是待執行待執行的實行犯這個首長是不能依法的是不能折抵那如果說我們那個修法的這份我們也是反對折抵的"},{"start":727.257,"end":745.123,"text":"就是這部分你們反對折抵嘛那我想說這個只是一個確定下來因為以前沒有這個問題那現在既然發生了因為如果可以折抵的話會造成很多人將來萬一判無嫉妒刑他馬上就可以申請假釋對不對因為最終審頂多押6次12個月嘛"},{"start":745.763,"end":761.963,"text":"那如果說12個月後他判無期徒刑那再回過頭去算那個收容的期間有的已經20幾年還沒有執行嘛那收容的期間加進來搞不好適用舊法15年的假釋的申請的話那搞不好他們在判決"},{"start":763.713,"end":784.916,"text":"吳齊徒刑的那個時候他就可以申請假釋了所以我蠻認同部長剛剛說的收容期間你們不會列入刑期的計算我是要確認這個點部長這有沒有什麼問題現實的情況就是不能折抵那我現在是一個很深刻的期望這我本來只想問五分鐘但花太多時間了"},{"start":785.56,"end":803.776,"text":"我希望一件事情,因為這幾天那個新北戈歐岸那個楊爸爸他昨天在接受訪問的時候甚至哭出來了我們都有小孩子嘛,我們都知道白髮人送黑髮人那種心痛那絕對是傷痛欲絕,我們都能夠理解嘛我希望一件事情,不要對這些被害者的家屬"},{"start":805.367,"end":806.388,"text":"我們一定要讓這個國家對好人更好對壞人更好"},{"start":833.427,"end":845.801,"text":"我們還是要讓這些犯罪的行為人要讓他們付出該有的代價部長你跟我以前都是檢察官我們對於正義真的是無可救藥的熱情我們一定要這樣堅持下去好不好"},{"start":847.659,"end":868.793,"text":"我們體會委員的心情這個部分我們是站在同一個線上對這種在為非作歹的這些歹徒我覺得公權力一定要伸張起來對就是公權力我們一定要讓他伸張我們要讓人民要尊重公權力這樣社會才會平安所以前一天我有講"},{"start":870.315,"end":878.214,"text":"當人民千方百計的在追求出入平安的時候我們的政府不能千方百計的為這些犯罪行為的人去求情"},{"start":879.025,"end":880.185,"text":"那我再請教一下院長喔院長"},{"start":902.506,"end":924.204,"text":"還包括那個法務部長我們其實在之前我們就提出來要求說因為我們一直希望說接避責保護法我們讓他能夠過讓他能夠順利的立法但是呢我們要求能夠在兩個月內把草案送過來因為這草案已經出來了嘛但是一直沒有送來可不可以告訴我們"},{"start":925.084,"end":948.997,"text":"趕快把他送來因為我們經過上一次的國會改革法案動不動你就給我送視線然後我們今天我們跟民眾黨我們有一些草案希望出來結果到時候又要被你們送視線嗎所以是不是行政院這邊可以趕快把揭秘者這個草案送到立法院來讓我們能夠審我們能夠把各個版本趕快審出一個對國家有幫助的"},{"start":949.958,"end":967.116,"text":"因為國家有很多弊案包括之前的雞蛋超市的問題武器採購的問題疫苗採購的問題我們真的深刻的希望有這些接避者能夠勇於出來接避但是我們真的需要他們我們需要這個法案過關可不可以請你們趕快把草案送到立法院來"},{"start":968.035,"end":989.707,"text":"包括法務部也正在審查過程當中我們認為對於公司部門要做怎麼樣的原則性的處置還在深度的討論但是進度是有的那我希望這個能夠來凝聚更高一點的共識我們再來放在修法過程當中時間真的太久了時間真的太久了如果說你們對私部門還有所"},{"start":990.919,"end":991.96,"text":"這部分我們那個法務部已經"},{"start":1011.059,"end":1038.779,"text":"連理了第15版因為我們要廣大各界的一個意見嘛應該跟委員清楚現在本來是公私合併後來公私公私分立的立法的一個政策那我想公部門這邊我們再廣大意見我們是提出第15個版本那我只能拜託你們速度能夠加快好不好如果真的不行的話那我們這邊就只好用我們的版本開始審理我們就只能這樣做因為從上個會期我們就一直拜託你們了而且這個法案已經躺在你們那裡躺了很久"},{"start":1039.139,"end":1067.194,"text":"所以真的要麻煩你們速度能夠快那再來 院長其實這段時間我們看到很多問題包括我個人認為能源政策是整個錯誤的政策你不要跟我講什麼AI內閣AI最需要的就是電力那你現在講你以後將來電力的狀況能不能夠補上這個缺口我覺得明眼人都知道未來會怎麼樣只是大家現在都不談而已好 那我們現在先不著重這個問題我想跟院長請教一下"},{"start":1070.466,"end":1085.76,"text":"煙圈這個東西我認為這個東西我們是不是應該思考一下最近是不是很長一段時間我們該漲的不漲不該漲的卻一直漲比如說電價我認為說一個正確的能源政策他就不會說讓電價今天漲成這樣"},{"start":1088.763,"end":1100.631,"text":"那我現在也為什麼不想再問電的問題因為我覺得問來問去答案都是騙人的就像最早期民進黨跟我們講說台電在偷電結果呢 台電有沒有偷電 沒有啊民進黨政府跟我說"},{"start":1101.806,"end":1126.773,"text":"御能之後臺灣不會缺電結果呢我認為不缺電是騙人那告訴我說不會大規模的漲電價這也都騙人所以到最後我已經被騙了三次了我真的沒有辦法再相信你們對於能源方面的給我們的保證那我是請教一下有關那個菸娟的部分其實我們菸娟已經非常久沒有去討論這個議題了我不知道院長知不知道這個部分"},{"start":1128.337,"end":1129.158,"text":"吳宗憲今年底會做檢討"},{"start":1151.994,"end":1171.639,"text":"的制度會做檢討因為今年應該會再開會因為每兩年要開一次會我們是不是要再思考這個部分因為我從國建署的資料來看CNN人口是上升的這是國建署自己公布的資料所以如果這樣的話你去漲電價不該漲的漲結果燕捐從98年到現在沒有調漲過"},{"start":1176.38,"end":1176.4,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":1208.05,"end":1236.092,"text":"另外那個我們請那個經濟部長這邊我有一個問題想要請教一下就是我們在2022年有提出一個能源轉型就是淨零排放路徑跟策略總說明裡面有四個領域就是能源轉型產業轉型生活轉型跟社會轉型那我想請問一下我們總共編列的預算有1161億那你知不知道"},{"start":1237.49,"end":1258.161,"text":"我們這個所謂的四大領域的12項關鍵戰略是什麼使用經費最高的前三名是什麼請問那個部長知道嗎這個部分我不是那麼清楚好吧沒關係那可是這花了我們一千多億所以部長要麻煩你不能不清楚"},{"start":1258.939,"end":1278.115,"text":"那其實我們使用最高的費用最高是電力系統儲能第二是風電光電第三是節能那我必須講一下這個還是源自於我個人認為錯誤的能源政策至少我自己個人這麼認為我知道各位一定有很多理由但是我個人認為我國能源政策是完全錯誤而且他帶動的那個"},{"start":1280.233,"end":1306.796,"text":"BPI的漲幅其實人民是痛苦的他讓我們的人民的實質薪資倒退其實他一連串發生了很多問題甚至發生了讓我們將來我們的產業要再往前進我們的外銷要再擴展要降低成本這都變成將來都是不可能的事情所以這樣子的能源政策他其實是讓某些特定人賺了大錢但是他苦了全體的人民我想"},{"start":1309.154,"end":1315.603,"text":"在立場上面也許我們各有立場但是我想心裡大家可能想法也不會插到太多所以"},{"start":1317.335,"end":1342.621,"text":"所以我剛剛跟那個部長說你還是要去弄清楚因為花了一千多億不能說都沒有什麼效果出來你剛剛那個成本的這樣的標示不是非常的正確核電的部分要很多的隱性的成本跟未來的成本那風電太陽能光電它也有非常多隱性的成本他們將來這些東西過了年限之後的銷毀以及它對於自然環境的傷害"},{"start":1343.541,"end":1363.833,"text":"這個東西院長也是隱形的成本但是呢兩個權衡之下誰好誰壞你要去思考為什麼全世界的主流是那樣我們反主流而行然後你現在跟我說的隱形成本世界的大廠來台灣都要求我們要提供綠電說我們必須要提供綠電給他們男人跟世界接軌"},{"start":1365.974,"end":1393.323,"text":"但是你要去思考一下這真的是永續了嗎還是一樣還有一個SDGs他所對於產品生產能源的要求他的能源要綠能乾淨能源的要求這個未來做不做得到將來碳稅的問題將來某些國家或歐盟地區等等不願意採購骯髒能源所生產的產品這個都是我們要考量我們不能把這個責任丟給10年後20年後的這些人民他們自己去承受"},{"start":1393.743,"end":1394.063,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":1409.314,"end":1435.473,"text":"我們花那麼多錢我們希望降低碳排但是其實這段時間碳排還是一樣非常的嚴重那我想說這個也是再回過頭去還是還是一樣能源的問題因為一個錯誤能源政策讓我們每個人均的碳排指數其實非常的高甚至超越到超越日本韓國那些所以我們這個對嗎這我想說可能再麻煩"},{"start":1436.781,"end":1451.956,"text":"行政院這邊能夠多去思考一下這個部分後面我想請教一個問題就是江部長我想請教一下其他部長是不是請回我想請問一下"},{"start":1461.912,"end":1485.789,"text":"你之前有說台鐵霧點5分鐘是可以接受那真的霧點是好嗎那你知不知道去年霧點的狀況是什麼我沒有說5分鐘可以接受我那天覺得霧點5分鐘對我來說當然沒有像高鐵那麼精準所以還有改善的空間但是台鐵他們給我的數據他們算的所謂的霧點率的部分5分鐘以內算在準點率裡面"},{"start":1487.244,"end":1508.791,"text":"但是我可以跟你說私人的企業可不這麼接受甚至你不要講別的我們立法院開會9點開會9點就要開會也沒有所謂的霧點這個東西所以這東西你這樣講了以後底下台鐵人都鬆一口氣超開心這是他們原本就訂好的標準這不是我講的這是他們原本就訂好的標準"},{"start":1509.318,"end":1530.412,"text":"但我還是有要求像高鐵這麼精準才是大家想要的目標所以我希望台鐵的準點率要再加強那你總是要有一些想法跟措施出來嗎那所以我剛問你你知不知道台鐵去年誤點多少次你知道嗎次數我不曉得您的數字是143萬次然後發生率是五成其實這個是還滿驚人的那所以"},{"start":1536.38,"end":1556.871,"text":"我認為他應該要更準點,我的想法會跟委員是一樣的他應該要更準點讓民眾不管是通勤也好或者是長途旅遊也好可以抓準自己的時間不會影響到上下班"},{"start":1559.929,"end":1576.927,"text":"我們就只能跟那新任的部長那你還是要解決這個台鐵問題因為我自己辦公室主任他常常知道我辦公室主任非常常知道因為他都要坐台鐵來上班然後每次我跟他溝通的時候我就講不下去了因為台鐵就是常常誤點"},{"start":1579.269,"end":1598.06,"text":"開車過來反而花更多時間,所以他都是搭乘交通工具我不是在那邊湊他啦,我只是說台鐵霧點這個是一個很大的問題,要麻煩,尤其很多施部門開會是不允許遲到的那你這樣會讓有一些民眾其實他們是困擾那第二個問題我要跟部長就教的就是"},{"start":1600.33,"end":1613.804,"text":"捷運或高鐵站台都有裝設那個門月台門我自己以前的工作經驗我曾經也驗過幾次那個就是鐵路的事故"},{"start":1615.986,"end":1617.768,"text":"報告委員我們目前有規劃在高雄站的部分"},{"start":1637.162,"end":1637.182,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":1660.857,"end":1663.819,"text":"目前火車是不是沒有辦法停到定點的位置 有沒有這個問題"},{"start":1687.072,"end":1703.519,"text":"因為他們每一種列車的設計不太一樣高低也會有落差門的前後也會有落差但是我看他們停車的部分都還是停在設定的點上面停在設定點上這個是沒有問題的但是門的位置可能都不太一樣"},{"start":1704.519,"end":1732.572,"text":"這樣我知道所以問題是在你們的位置那另外還有一件事情就是我們那個臺東的部分就因為我們臺東那個立委黃建斌立委他一直在協調臺東的旅遊補助能夠跟花蓮看齊但是他努力了很久也沒有用可是上次民進黨莊瑞雄委一到花蓮去認養服務處之後那你們馬上就同意而且他對外宣傳說他搞定了那我想請問一下這是怎麼回事"},{"start":1734.672,"end":1751.487,"text":"不是我們一直在朝這個方向努力包含我本人到花蓮跟花蓮的旅宿業者跟觀光業者座談的時候也有台東的代表過來他也有跟我表示這樣的意見跟誰去任養花蓮這個任養台東這絕對沒有關係我上次到花蓮我們就決定說花蓮跟台東要同時"},{"start":1760.134,"end":1761.775,"text":"部長以前是政治系出身的"},{"start":1782.045,"end":1800.039,"text":"那當然我是說 真心俗稱但在施政上面我覺得還是不要有那種政治的分別當然我們現在我們看到的是結論嘛那結論看到的就是說國民黨的立委黃建斌一直在在努力奔走可是他達不到什麼效果但是鍾瑞雄委員一到台東卻"},{"start":1801.28,"end":1830.666,"text":"就可以很順利的做到很多事情那施政上面總是不要有敵我之分那如果是誤解那也可以用其他的方式來讓大家知道這是個誤解好不好好那最後我想跟院長報告因為時間不夠就是老人的問題因為現在低收入的那個族群65歲以上的這低收入一直在增加那依照現在不動產的這個價格大家也都買不起所以是不是"},{"start":1832.026,"end":1834.527,"text":"謝謝吳委員 謝謝卓院長下一位楊耀委員的質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:34:25 - 12:05:23","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155040","gazette":{"lineno":1018,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時34分）麻煩請院長還有法務部長、經濟部長以及交通部長。"],["主席：請卓院長還有法務部長、交通部長及經濟部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長、部長、各位早安。院長，3個多月前我質詢的時候曾經有跟你提過，我們希望你不是只擔任民進黨的大師兄，其實你要當我們中華民國的大師兄，要照顧我們全臺灣人，但是這段時間下來，從國會改革激烈的鬥爭；還有新青安、物價通膨、兩岸緊張；還有總統放棄和平的這種想法，都讓我覺得這與當初希望院長能夠擔任全民大師兄的想法，好像都是背道而馳的。","關於上一次有很多部長請假的這件事情，也讓我想到當初我們國會改革的法案，其實條文裡面就有說怎麼樣可以請假，只要經過主席同意就可以，但是這個法案到最後被大家、被你們聯手把它擋在外面，否則以韓院長的個性，部長找個原因向他請假，我想韓院長應該都會同意，也不會造成後面有這麼多的問題；甚至大家還談論到，這是不是違反了憲法權力分立上面行政院應該對立法院負責的概念。","我看到第8屆第4會期其實也是有類似的狀況，但民進黨那時候是用毀憲亂政當作理由，直接要求行政院江宜樺前院長要先道歉，然後才能上臺進行施政報告。至少今天國民黨的作法，不是把整個議場鬧得亂哄哄，大家回過頭去想第8屆民進黨的那個作法，所以我是建議還是不要這樣子，不要把立法院不當一回事，至少你要向民意負責。","另外，我覺得這段時間你也要去思考一個點，總統依照憲法，負責的範圍應該是國防、外交，但是總統卻被另外一個部長來認證，他可以直接下指示，對於你底下的部長去下一道命令、去指示、去訓斥他，其實這個東西就坐實了、由部長來認證我們的總統其實是一個獨裁而且破壞憲政體制的總統，因為總統認為他不需要到立法院接受質詢，結果他卻可以去指揮行政院底下的部長，我覺得這個都不對，這整個都是在破壞我國的憲政體制，民進黨不能這樣啊！民進黨不能當憲法對自己有利的時候才挑來用，動不動罵別人毀憲亂政，但是真正想破壞憲法的卻是民進黨政府，它只挑對自己有利的東西來用，然後整天在那邊喊一些莫名其妙、毀憲亂政的話。","本席希望大家能夠好好的彼此磨合，包括行政院跟我們這些立法委員之間，我相信第一次我們是可以好好談；如果第二次行政院還是讓國家這樣子下去的話，我想民怨還是會出來。尤其最近又看到總統的信任度、滿意度跌下來，不滿意度又上升，其實在在都顯現這段時間也許施政上面是有問題的，那可不可以聽聽我們在講什麼？不要所有的事情都是你想幹什麼，你就自己恣意妄為。","從這段時間、從2022年的數據來看，其實貧富差距是加大的，政府最喜歡用所謂的吉尼係數，我們看到最高組別跟最低組別的家庭所得差距已經到了6.15倍，用吉尼係數來算已經到了0.342，若到達0.4的話，依據聯合國的標準，就會造成社會動盪，其實我們每年都在往那個方向走，這個請行政院千萬要注意，我們不要往0.4的這個方向走，就是聯合國認定會造成社會動盪的這個方向走。還有，目前國人的待業痛苦指數是往上飆的，開心指數是往下降的，這都有數據可以證明。還有75%的社會新鮮人認為自己每個月都存不到錢。我再跟院長報告，其實月光族現在已經是幸福的，因為有非常大的比例其實是根本不夠支應相關的生活費。還有國家整體的發展，這段時間我們的CPI一直是在暴漲的；據瑞士洛桑管理學院最近的公布，我們的經濟排名已經從第6名掉到第26名，這個指數一直在往下降，可能行政院自己要稍微注意一下。還有這段時間的新青安政策，其實讓大家非常痛苦。尤其四年後的新青安會讓四年後的年輕人首購更痛苦，這是大家可以預測到的，所有行內的人都已經知道這個狀況。尤其現在的房價，平均人民不吃不喝，目前全國已經到10.35年，而臺北甚至到16.08年，所以政府到底在創造什麼？蔡政府上任的第一年告訴大家，他要處理的是居住正義，結果他的居住正義帶來的是建商的居住正義，讓人民越來越痛苦！","接下來我想請問院長跟法務部長，我想請教一下，大法官千方百計幫這37個死刑犯找免死的理由，不要再跟我說死刑合憲，並沒有實質廢死。大家都內行人，不用講外行話。我請教院長還有部長，判決如果被廢棄之後，死刑犯會不會被放掉？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這是憲判的意旨，不過判決必須請總長先審核有非常上訴的事由之後，才會向最高法院提非常上訴。當然，最高法院就這個案件，如果像委員所講的撤銷的話，這是憲判的意旨，羈押……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有關係，你不要跟我講憲判。你就說如果回復、重回終審法院判決時，死刑犯會不會被放掉？"],["鄭部長銘謙：在判決之前不會放掉。根據監獄行刑法第一百四十八條第一項規定，能繼續收容中。"],["吳委員宗憲：死刑判決已經被非常上訴撤掉了，還可以收容嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那是判決之前，如果非常上訴最高法院……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，我已經說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：判決要重新來，要羈押的，我們會建請羈押，羈押是重新計算的。"],["吳委員宗憲：法院不押呢？法院可以不押啊。如果法院不押，這37個人你們怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們建議法院要羈押。"],["吳委員宗憲：你只能建議，但法院可以不押！羈押的理由很簡單，依照刑事訴訟法，除了重罪之外，必須要有逃亡之虞或串證之虞……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是最嚴重的犯罪。跟委員報告，這是最嚴重的犯罪，訴訟法第七十六條這是五年以上的重罪，是重罪羈押。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，重罪不能當作唯一羈押理由，這應該是common sense吧，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想法院一定是根據訴訟法第七十六條的規定來羈押。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，重罪不是羈押的唯一理由，你可以去隨便問一個檢察官，你不能犯這種最低階的錯誤。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是低階錯誤，這是就法論法。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，我不跟你爭辯這個，反正我告訴你的就是：重罪不是唯一羈押的理由。所以這些人有可能會被法院放掉，你們有沒有因應之道？如果法院不押，你們有沒有因應之道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這是假設性的問題！"],["吳委員宗憲：這不是假設性的問題！就算這是假設性的問題，部裡面應該要有所因應吧？這問題已經吵十幾年了，部裡面難道沒有任何因應嗎？今天不是一定羈押，法官可以不押人，這點你我都知道。如果回到終審法院審判時，若法院認為沒有逃亡之虞，也沒有串證之虞，這時候如果法官放人呢？部裡面沒有任何作為嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您也擔任過檢察官，你也知道跟法院之間的這種關係……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是……"],["卓院長榮泰：法院真的不押，檢察官也沒有辦法。但是我認為這幾個案件除了是嚴重之罪外，都經過確定的審判，所以很確定這個行為人必須負這個責任。我認為法院還是會做最清楚的，如果有需要的話，會做最清楚的決定。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，我是說得很簡單，法院不押的話，法務部有什麼作為？"],["鄭部長銘謙：除非法院判決無罪要釋放之外，只要判決有罪的，我認為法院會押。"],["吳委員宗憲：你認為法官會押，我現在是問你法官如果不押。依照刑事訴訟法規定……"],["鄭部長銘謙：法官不押的話只有無罪的可能……"],["吳委員宗憲：羈押有一定的要件，依我來看，現行這些人不是每個人都百分之百符合，常常檢察官認為要押，法官就沒有押！如果今天法官沒有押的情況下，沒有羈押理由了，我只是要請教法務部有沒有因應的作為，結果你們跟我講那麼多，那就沒有意思了！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長、院長，大家都是內行人，不用在那邊講外行話，法院如果不押的話，請問法務部有什麼作為？題目就這麼簡單。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不認為這些已經經過三審定讞的案件，法院的判決結果會有不押的情形，我想就像委員跟我都是……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你以前當檢察官的時候聲請羈押有沒有法院……不過你那時候可能沒有這個問題，全國檢察官聲押時都認為法院會押，但是法官常常都把人放掉，所以部長，我們不能坐在那邊說法官一定押。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們對法院要有信心。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為你也沒有命令法官的權限嘛！好吧，你沒辦法回答這個問題，我知道你們根本就還沒有任何因應的作為，但是這個問題已經吵十幾年了，到今天跟我說沒有因應的作為，我也是嘆為觀止啦！我想這37個死刑犯所造成61條人命的家屬大概不能接受你們的這個意見啦！","第二個問題請教院長跟部長，他們判決死刑確定之後收容的這段時間，如果將來改判無期徒刑或者改判有期徒刑，可不可以折抵刑期？收容的期間。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為根據刑法的規定，必須要執行之後才有折抵的問題，現在是待執行的死刑犯，這個收容依法是不能折抵，如果說修法的這部分，我們也是反對折抵的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，就是這部分你們反對折抵嘛！我想問這個只是要確定下來，因為以前沒有這個問題，現在既然發生了，因為如果可以折抵的話，會造成很多人將來萬一判無期徒刑，他馬上就可以聲請假釋，對不對？因為最終審頂多押6次、12個月，如果12個月後他被判無期徒刑，再回過頭去算那個收容期間，有的已經二十幾年還沒有執行嘛，收容期間加進來，適用舊法15年得假釋聲請，搞不好他在判決無期徒刑的時候就可以聲請假釋了，所以我滿認同部長剛剛所說的，收容期間不會列入刑期計算，我是要確認這個點，部長，這有沒有什麼問題？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依據現行的刑法就是不能折抵。"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在是深刻的期望，這個議題我本來只想問5分鐘，結果花太多時間了，我希望一件事情，因為新北割喉案的楊爸爸昨天接受訪問的時候甚至哭出來了，我們都有小孩，都知道白髮人送黑髮人的那種心痛，絕對是傷痛欲絕，我們都能夠理解嘛。我希望一件事情，對這些被害者家屬，第一次對他們造成傷害的是這些兇手，但是我們的行政機關、政治人物、司法系統不要對他們第二次傷害，你看他昨天哭得那樣子，我看了都不忍心，因為我從新北市府就陪著他到現在，我真的不忍心這個事情，所以我們一定要讓這個國家對好人更好、對壞人更壞，我們還是要讓這一些犯罪行為人付出該有的代價。部長，你跟我以前都是檢察官，我們對於正義真的是有無可救藥的熱情，我們一定要這樣堅持下去，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：我能體會委員的心情，這個部分我們是站在同一個線上，對這種為非作歹的這些歹徒，我覺得公權力一定要伸張起來。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝院長，就是公權力我們一定要讓它伸張，我們要讓人民遵守、尊重公權力，這樣社會才會平安。","前幾天我有講，我說當人民千方百計在追求出入平安的時候，我們的政府不能千方百計的為這些犯罪行為人求情，我們每年有非常多件殺人既遂的案子，但是很多年才會有1件死刑案子，所以這些人都是法官認證要永久與社會隔絕的，今天我們又千方百計的為他們求情，其實對於被害者家屬來說情何以堪？","我再請教一下院長跟法務部長，我們其實在之前就有提出要求，因為我們一直希望揭弊者保護法能夠通過，讓它能夠順利立法，我們要求你們能夠在2個月內把草案送過來，因為草案已經出來了嘛，但是一直沒有送來，可不可以承諾趕快把它送來，因為我們經過了上次國會改革法案，動不動你就給我送釋憲，然後今天我們跟民眾黨有一些草案希望出來，結果到時候又要被你們送釋憲嗎？是不是行政院這邊可以趕快把揭弊者保護法草案送到立法院來，讓我們能夠審議，這樣我們才能夠就各個版本趕快審出一個對國家有幫助的法案。因為國家有很多弊案，包括之前超思進口雞蛋的問題、武器採購的問題、疫苗採購的問題，我們真的深刻希望有揭弊者能夠勇於出來揭弊，我們真的需要他們，所以需要這個法案能夠過關，請問可不可以請你們趕快把草案送到立法院來？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，法務部也正在審查過程當中，我們認為對於公私部門要做怎麼樣原則性的處置，還在深入的討論，但是進度是有的，我希望這個能夠再凝聚更高一點的共識，然後再放在修法過程當中……"],["吳委員宗憲：但是時間真的太久了，時間真的太久了！"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說明一下。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果說你們對私部門還有所擔心的話，這個我能夠理解，我自己擔任檢察官的時候受理過非常多濫訴、濫告，甚至是惡意檢舉的案件，造成企業活不下去，這個我可以理解，但至少公部門、國營企業，如果沒有問題，是不是至少把你們的版本趕快送過來吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分法務部已經研擬了第15版，因為我們要廣納各界的意見，委員也很清楚，原本是公私合併，後來是公私分立的立法政策。公部門這邊我們再去廣納各界意見，我們也已經提出第15個版本來做個審議……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那我只能拜託你們速度能夠加快，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果真的不行，我們就只好用我們的版本開始審理，我們就只能這樣做。因為從上會期我們就一直拜託你們了，而且這個法案已經在你們那邊躺了很久，所以真的要麻煩你們速度能夠快。","再來，院長，在這段時間我們看到很多問題，包括我個人認為能源政策是整個錯誤的政策，你不要跟我講什麼AI內閣，AI最需要的就是電力嘛，你現在講將來電力的狀況能不能補上這個缺口，我覺得明眼人都知道未來會怎麼樣，只是大家現在都不談而已。好，我們先不著重這個問題，我想跟院長請教一下菸捐的部分，我認為這個東西我們是不是應該思考一下？最近是不是很長一段時間該漲的不漲、不該漲的卻一直漲價？譬如說電價，我認為一個正確的能源政策就不會讓電價今天漲成這樣，我現在為什麼不想再問電的問題，因為我覺得問來問去的答案都是騙人的，就像最早期民進黨跟我們說台電在偷電，結果呢？台電有沒有偷電？沒有啊！民進黨政府說綠能之後臺灣不會缺電，結果呢？我認為不缺電是騙人的！又告訴我們不會大規模的漲電價，這也都是騙人的！到最後我已經被騙了3次，我真的沒有辦法再相信你們對於能源方面給我們的保證。","我想請教一下有關菸捐的部分，其實我們的菸捐已經非常久沒有討論這個議題了，不知道院長知不知道這個部分？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，沒有討論這個議題。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後一次調整是什麼時候？OK，我印象中是98年，98年是最後一次去思考這個部分，這個部分將來是不是應該要去考慮一下？是不是應該要有所改變？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，菸捐在今年底會做檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：蛤？"],["邱部長泰源：制度會做檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為今年應該會再開會，因為每二年要開一次會……"],["邱部長泰源：對，二年要開一次會。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們是不是要再思考這個部分？因為我從國健署的資料看到，吸菸人口是上升的喔，這是國健署自己公布的資料，如果這樣的話，你去漲電價，不該漲的漲，結果菸捐從98年到現在沒有調漲過，我手上的資料只有91年5塊、95年10塊，然後最近一次98年調整到20塊，之後就沒有再思考過了，這部分再麻煩你們，因為我現在在外面看到很多地方抽菸的人越來越多。我沒有歧視他們，但是我希望他們健康，所以我們是不是增加一點他們的負擔，讓他們少抽一點，對自己比較好，他們的家人也會很高興部長、院長你們能做出這樣的決策，好嗎？這部分再麻煩你們一下。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外，我們請經濟部長上台，我有一個問題想要請教一下。我們在2022年有提出一個「臺灣2050淨零排放路徑及策略總說明」，其中有提到四個領域，就是能源轉型、產業轉型、生活轉型跟社會轉型，我們總共編列的預算有1,161億，我想請問一下，那你知不知道其中所謂的四大領域十二項關鍵戰略是什麼？使用經費最高的前三名是什麼？請問部長知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我不是那麼清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧，那沒關係，可是這個花了我們一千多億元，所以部長，要麻煩你不能不清楚，其實我們使用經費最高的是電力系統儲能；第二是風電光電；第三是節能。我必須講一下，這個還是源自於我個人認為錯誤的能源政策，至少我自己個人這麼認為，我知道各位一定有很多理由，但是我個人認為我國的能源政策是完全錯誤。而且它帶動CPI的漲幅，其實人民是痛苦的，它讓我們人民的實質薪資是倒退的，其實它一連串發生了很多問題，甚至讓將來我們的產業要再往前進，我們的外銷要再擴展，要降低成本，這在將來都變成是不可能的事情。所以，這樣子的能源政策，它其實是讓某些特定人賺了大錢，但是它苦了全體的人民。我想在立場上面，也許我們各有立場，但是我想大家心裡的想法可能也不會差太多，所以，我剛剛就跟部長說，你還是要去弄清楚，因為花了一千多億，不能說都沒有什麼效果出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你剛剛那樣標示成本不是非常的正確，核電的部分要很多隱性的成本跟未來的成本，那應該要放進去……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那風電、太陽能光電也有非常多隱性的成本……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是有大量的先前投資。"],["吳委員宗憲：將來這些東西過了年限之後的銷毀，以及它對於自然環境的傷害，院長，這個東西也是隱形的成本。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，這個也要面對，沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是，兩個權衡之下誰好誰壞，你要去思考，為什麼全世界的主流是那樣，我們反主流而行，然後你現在跟我說隱形成本，全世界……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為世界大廠來臺灣都要求我們要提供綠電，所以我們必須要提供綠電給他們，才能跟世界接軌……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係。我們要綠電就是為了要永續，但是你要去思考一下，這樣真的是永續了嗎？還是一樣？還有一個SDGs，它對於產品生產能源的要求，它的能源要乾淨能源的要求，這個未來做不做得到？還有將來碳稅的問題，將來某些國家或歐盟地區等等不願意採購骯髒能源所生產的產品，這個都是我們要考量的，我們不能把這個責任丟給十年後、二十年後的人民自己去承受，這是我個人粗淺的認為。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然追求永續，如果有新的核能技術不會產生現在的核安跟核廢的問題，我們也願意開放來討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，院長，我本人的淺見供參，那我們來看看，之後我們說的這個東西會不會變成一個事實。","好，我們花了那麼多錢希望降低碳排，但是其實這段時間碳排還是一樣非常的嚴重，我想這個再回過頭去還是一樣是能源的問題，因為一個錯誤的能源政策讓我們的人均碳排指數其實非常的高，甚至超越了日本、韓國等國，所以我們這樣對嗎？我想可能再麻煩行政院這邊能夠多去思考一下這個部分。後面我想請教一下交通部長一個問題。"],["主席：交通部長請備詢。其他部長是不是請回？"],["吳委員宗憲：好，可以。部長，我想請問一下，你之前有說臺鐵誤點5分鐘是可以接受，那真的誤點是好嗎？你知不知道去年誤點的狀況是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：我沒有說5分鐘可以接受，我那天覺得誤點5分鐘，對我來說，當然沒有像高鐵那麼精準，所以還有改善的空間，但是臺鐵他們給我的數據，他們在計算所謂誤點率的部分，誤點5分鐘以內算在準點率裡面。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我要跟你說，私人的企業可不這麼接受，甚至你不要講別人，我們立法院的會議表定9點開會，9點就要開會，也沒有所謂的誤點這個東西，所以這個東西你這樣講了以後，底下臺鐵人都鬆一口氣，超開心，5分鐘部長認證OK……"],["陳部長世凱：這是他們原本就訂好的標準，這不是我講的，是他們原本就訂好的標準，但我還是有要求，像高鐵這麼精準才是大家想要的目標，所以我希望臺鐵的準點率要再加強。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，那你總是要有一些想法跟措施出來嘛！所以我剛剛問你，你知不知道臺鐵去年誤點多少次，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我不曉得次數，您的數字是143萬次。"],["吳委員宗憲：是143萬次，然後發生率是5成，其實這個是還蠻驚人的，那我們可以這樣子嗎？部長，你不能說這個5分鐘……好啦！沒關係，不管你怎麼講，但是至少……"],["陳部長世凱：我認為它應該要更準點啦！我認為它應該要更準點，我的想法會跟委員是一樣的，它應該要更準點，讓民眾不管是通勤也好，或者是長途旅遊也好，可以抓準自己的時間，不會影響到上下班。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧！那我們就只能跟新任的部長講，你還是要解決這個臺鐵的問題，因為我自己辦公室的主任常常遲到……"],["陳部長世凱：是，我是覺得它應該要更準點一點。"],["吳委員宗憲：我辦公室的主任非常的常遲到，因為他都要坐臺鐵來上班，然後每一次我跟他溝通的時候，我就講不下去了，因為臺鐵就是常常誤點嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：很抱歉，我代替臺鐵跟委員抱歉。"],["吳委員宗憲：然後他如果要開車過來反而會花更多的時間，所以他都是搭乘大眾交通工具。我不是在那邊臭他啦！我只是說臺鐵誤點是一個很大的問題，要麻煩部長。"],["陳部長世凱：這個要解決。"],["吳委員宗憲：尤其很多私部門開會是不允許遲到的，這樣會讓一些民眾其實很困擾。我要跟部長就教第二個問題，就是捷運或高鐵的站臺都有裝設那個門……"],["陳部長世凱：是，月臺門。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，月臺門。在我自己以前的工作經驗中，我曾經也驗過幾次鐵路的事故，當然我驗的都是自殺，是自己跳下去自殺，但是過往也有不慎掉落的例子，不管是自殺或不慎掉落，是不是有可能裝設月臺門？是不是在臺鐵比較重要車站的月臺都能這麼做？目前有沒有這個規劃？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們目前有規劃在高雄站的部分，我們正在測試那個月臺門，大概明年就會做好測試然後把一個月臺的月臺門做好，但是臺鐵的部分會相對比較複雜一點，因為它的車型都不一樣，每個門開的地方不太一樣，所以那個月臺門也會跟大家的想像不一樣，不過對這一點我們已經在努力了，就是我們明年第一個測試的閘門會在高雄完成，當它完成測試之後，認為可以做，我們就會挑人比較多的站，也就是風險相對高的站，我們會來設置月臺門的部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，至少就是比較大的站、人多的站、有可能發生推擠的站，你是不是要優先處理？"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然有一些小的站你們沒有優先處理，我們都可以理解，但是這個部分至少要做吧！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：目前火車是不是沒有辦法停到定點的那個位置？有沒有這個問題？"],["陳部長世凱：因為他們每一種列車的設計不太一樣，高低也會有落差，然後門的前後也會有落差，但是我看他們停車的部分都還是停在設定的點上面，停在設定點上是沒有問題的，但是門的位置可能都不太一樣。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這樣我知道了，所以問題是在於門的位置。另外還有一件事情就是臺東的部分，其實我們臺東的黃建賓立委一直在協調讓臺東的旅遊補助能夠跟花蓮看齊，但是他努力了很久也沒有用，可是上次民進黨的莊瑞雄委員一到臺東去認養服務處之後，你們馬上就同意，而且還對外宣傳說他搞定了，那我想請問一下這是怎麼回事？"],["陳部長世凱：不是……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，你說，你就直接告訴我。"],["陳部長世凱：我們一直在朝這個方向努力，包含我本人到花蓮跟花蓮的旅宿業者、觀光業者座談的時候，也有臺東的代表過來，他也有跟我表示這樣的意見……"],["吳委員宗憲：不好意思，要麻煩院長說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這個跟誰去認養臺東絕對沒有關係，我上次到花蓮之後，我們就決定花蓮跟臺東要同時啟用這個補助，但是臺東好像是希望他們晚一個月開始。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以臺東只是晚一個月開始，內容相同，我們現在也希望不要限定一人一次或是一次一個晚上，你可以從花蓮玩到臺東，再從臺東回來花蓮，我們都願意這樣來補助。"],["吳委員宗憲：我要跟院長報告，因為我知道部長以前是政治系出身的，我是說雖然是政治系出身，但是在施政上面我覺得還是不要有那種政治的分別，當然我們看到的是結論嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：不會、不會，對民眾的需求，我們幫得上忙的就儘量來做。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們看到的結論就是說，國民黨的立委黃建賓一直在努力奔走，可是他達不到什麼效果，但是莊瑞雄委員一到臺東就可以很順利的做到很多事情，那施政上面總是不要有敵我之分。"],["陳部長世凱：不會。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果是誤解，也可以用其他的方式來讓大家知道這是一個誤解，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為時間不夠了，最後我想跟院長報告的就是老人的問題，現在65歲以上的低收入族群一直在增加，那依照現在不動產的價格，大家也都買不起，所以院長，我們要記得禮運大同篇說的要老有所終，我們是不是要照顧他們？老人租屋以及補助，請院長一定要在這一塊來努力，因為我們是超高齡社會了，麻煩你了。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們再從政策面來做思考、跟委員請教，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位楊曜委員的質詢以書面提出，請行政院以書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","一、嚴格落實醫學中心評鑑制度","問題：全民健康保險結餘從2017年起再度出現赤字，直到2022年才終結連續5年赤字，由負轉正，主因為公務預算挹注健保及補充保費大增有關，但景氣帶來紅利及稅收超徵，並非每年都有，對於健保永續而言，並非最佳解方，因此，如何逐步的健全健保體制，並保障民眾醫療權益，本席相信這是政府應該努力的方向，根據醫學中心評鑑規則，原本應該是每兩百萬人一家醫學中心，以台灣目前的人口數來說，大約就是12家醫學中心，但現在卻有22家，已經變成每百萬人口就有一家醫學中心，請問衛福部真的有在落實評鑑規則嗎？無法嚴格落實評鑑的狀況下，只會讓評鑑的可信度大打折扣，以及越來越多升格的醫學中心來分食健保大餅，會造成區域及地區醫院的經營不易，無法讓分級醫療順利實施，讓民眾喪失對於台灣醫療品質的信心，因此，本席建議，除了要落實醫學中心評鑑外，也要對於醫學中心的總額進行控管。","二、針媒體報導澎湖駐軍擬減少一事，本席要求不宜減少駐軍。","問題：根據行政院提出114年度預算書報告，離島軍人預算員額將大減千人，約占目前駐軍的15%，有學者表示，114年國軍離島志願、義務役「預算員額」較今年互有消長，其中，離島義務役員額比今年多4倍，但離島守軍明年度「預算員額」卻將大減15%，不排除軍方有裁減澎湖駐軍規模的計畫，澎湖為台海防衛作戰第一線，中共戰機、戰艦時常侵擾台海中線，都是澎湖各項軍種兵力前往對峙，保衛台海安全，因此本席要求不宜減少駐軍外，由於澎湖位處重要戰略地位，從天駒部隊調整為常態部署，堅守空防第一線，就可得知區域情勢已有變化，因此澎湖的各軍種駐軍勤務日益繁重、操演增加，因此，本席先前也曾召開會議，要求國防部研議，加發澎湖駐軍獎金，也請國防部審慎評估可行性，以提升澎湖駐軍士氣，此外，澎湖國軍部隊的編現比、後勤補給，亦是國防戰力重要的一環，也請國防部務必留意。而離島部隊目前募兵困難的主因為志願役待遇不佳，加上義務役的薪水與志願役二兵的薪水相差不大，更難以吸引年輕人加入國軍行列，政策走向應該為增加志願役加給，提升台灣青年從軍意願，充實國軍戰力，而非直接減少第一作戰區的駐軍人數，影響台海安全。","三、勞保基金改革刻不容緩，僅憑單一改革方式並非長久之計。","問題：勞保基金財務問題是近年來國人最關注的議題之一，對此執政團隊以撥補作為主要手段，目前已累積撥補近三千億。想請教勞動部，除了撥補之外，是否有計畫以其他改革方式改善勞保財務議題？如多繳、少領、延後領或是設法提高基金收益率等？依照現況，退休國人平均能領到的勞保老年年金已低於台北市的最低生活費，近年來全球通膨持續，因此不可能再減少給付。台灣將進入超高齡社會，針對未來所謂的退休潮，勞保的資金缺口勢必擴大，撥補的金額也將越來越高，因此勞動部除了必須持續撥補以外，本席也要求勞動部也應提出其他政策工具向社會大眾說明並取得共識，以挽救岌岌可危的勞保基金。","四、國內旅遊持續慘澹，觀光署應儘早提出明年度澎湖地區國旅振興方案。","問題：先前本席已有要求，因出國旅遊已恢復常態化，可以預期的是國旅市場衰退，特別是澎湖觀光產業受創將更嚴重，當時，我也要求交通部要規劃相關方案，以因應國旅衰退的問題，今年本席有接到澎湖當地觀光業業者反映，業績至少衰退三成，顯示先前所擔憂的問題一一浮現，而剛剛落幕的「2024澎湖追風音樂燈光節」，亦有宣傳不足，大型展演無法吸引旅客至澎湖觀光等問題，為此，本席要求，觀光署應儘早提出明年度澎湖地區國旅振興方案，也應針對澎湖地區辦理秋冬大型展演活動如何持續精進提出改善措施，以利促進澎湖觀光業發展。","五、請海洋委員會研議於澎湖地區及鄰近海域試辦珊瑚礁復育計畫。","問題：八年來，透過「向海致敬」計畫以及本席向相關部會爭取預算，投注於澎湖地區及鄰近海域清除海底覆網，環境部自2021年起補助澎湖縣政府辦理海底覆網清理工作，自2021年至2024年8月底，累計清理重量約7萬6,800公斤，當中還不包含海洋委員會及農業部漁業署所清理成果，初步已略見成效，唯有逐步清除海底覆網，投入海洋復育的相關預算才能發揮成效，因此，本席要求，在海底覆網已清理已達一定成效之海域，海委會應著手研議提出棲地復育計畫，針對復育一事提出可行方案或模式，如復育珊瑚礁等方式，如此一來，才能加速讓澎湖海洋生態的復育。"],["主席：報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。下午2點30分繼續開會，進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（12時5分）","繼續開會（14時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137601_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-01","影片長度":"00:15:45","end_time":"2024-10-01T11:34:20+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155039","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","duration":945,"start_time":"2024-10-01T11:18:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0c68ad649ac1b3ae8ee4f8a163784ccbfba123520daf7605bbcb1967d29e5541077d9df624e048115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.640343750000003,"end":16.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.58096875,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.977218750000002,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.49034375,"end":31.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.23284375,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.970968750000004,"end":33.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.49659375,"end":75.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.19221875000001,"end":75.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.56346875,"end":75.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.95159375,"end":78.56721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.82034375,"end":81.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.52034375000001,"end":81.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.95909375000001,"end":82.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.66784375,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.91221875000001,"end":90.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.05471875,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.09596875000001,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.35284375,"end":102.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.73221875,"end":106.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.07346875,"end":119.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.04596875000001,"end":160.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.39409375,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.04721875,"end":166.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.99221875,"end":169.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.20284375,"end":170.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.07596875000002,"end":171.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.26159375,"end":171.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.12221875,"end":184.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.02721875,"end":187.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.57971875,"end":190.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.23346875000001,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.33034375000003,"end":190.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.34721875000002,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.13096875000002,"end":224.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.73846875,"end":225.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.24471875,"end":229.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.59409375,"end":230.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.61096875,"end":231.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.69096875000002,"end":232.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.94409375,"end":231.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.37846875000002,"end":236.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.55534375000002,"end":237.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.49596875,"end":245.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.17471875,"end":241.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.23346875000001,"end":243.45284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.10659375,"end":278.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":278.72159375,"end":287.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.09971875,"end":291.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.40346875,"end":289.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.00659375000004,"end":296.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.41159375,"end":291.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.84534375000004,"end":298.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.49471875,"end":300.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.43534375,"end":305.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.94534375,"end":307.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.58221875000004,"end":310.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.33284375,"end":312.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.17221875,"end":311.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.35784375000003,"end":311.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.60659375,"end":313.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.58534375,"end":322.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.81159375000004,"end":325.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.42721875,"end":329.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.35909375,"end":331.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.38409375000003,"end":340.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","sta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謝謝副院長那我們請卓院長卓院長請備選"},{"start":30.709,"end":53.371,"text":"蘇委員好院長好 院長辛苦了那我想這麼多的委員其實有很多都問到了一個相同的問題就是我們非常關心的國土計劃法所以我今天也想就這個問題來跟您請教我想國土計劃法的重要性是非常清楚的因為它就是讓全國的土地在規劃與利用有一致的標準"},{"start":53.891,"end":83.132,"text":"而且呢在進行詳細的調查之後就未來我們國土的功能分區的使用他是會有一定的總量管制這沒有問題嘛對不對好可是那請問院長為什麼現在感覺上國土計畫這麼好的一個法律要實施起來就困難重重呢委員應該清楚我們國土計畫法的實施已經延過一次了是啊那再回覆過來現在我們發現的問題有幾個縣市是沒有送來他的功能表的有九個縣市"},{"start":84.943,"end":101.798,"text":"但是在說明的過程當中我個人會覺得我們對國土計劃法的內容要說明清楚讓廣大的農民朋友知道那目前來看相當的困難原始的設計是不是現在沒有辦法對大家了解接受但是我們還請內政部跟農業部"},{"start":103.16,"end":119.396,"text":"市長你又講到一個點就是我也非常同意其實我認為現在實施的困難真的是兩個面向第一個是民眾對於國土計劃法的規定其實不太了解所以很多的"},{"start":120.177,"end":143.205,"text":"反對其實是來自於誤解比如說第一個他們就不清楚國土計劃法的重要精神之一就是保障既有的合法權益只要你是既有的合法權益其實這是完全受保護的不管你是屬於哪一種未來被分在哪一種類別上面既有權益合法權益是完全被保障但這個資訊其實不夠清楚第二個是因為"},{"start":144.145,"end":169.948,"text":"主要的規劃權力就是在地方政府所以相同的地貌有可能會因為他在不同的縣市不同的主管單位畫出來的不太一樣的功能分區這當然民眾心中就有所不平啊那所以院長我今天就讓你實務看一下院長你有看過這一張表嗎這個俗稱圈差表院長有看過嗎圈差表"},{"start":172.229,"end":184.365,"text":"有看過 這就是我們國土功能的分區未來容許使用的情形所以它的不同類別將來圈圈叉叉就代表它可以或不可以好 那我就問你 你圈圈叉叉知道是什麼嗎"},{"start":186.067,"end":188.788,"text":"管制強度不同五種不同的管制密度"},{"start":203.354,"end":229.743,"text":"每一種類別確實﹖可以秀一下我的表單嗎不同的類別讓院長看一下不同類別他真的後面的圈和差和他的時薪上面有數字等等真的不一樣可見得你被分在哪一類確實就會有不同的發展這院長同意吧沒問題那院長你知道農事和乘二之一的差別嗎農事和乘二之一"},{"start":233.687,"end":250.907,"text":"我跟委員說明 農事的部分就是原來的鄉村區的一個聚落的部分跟原住民的聚落的部分規劃在那個農事就是同樣如果你是一個聚落 如果你的周圍都是農地把你包圍著你就農事嘛 對不對"},{"start":251.408,"end":251.708,"text":"那我現在來讓你看這張圖"},{"start":278.795,"end":287.179,"text":"委員長你看一下這張圖現在這個粉紅色有框起來的這個部分它的周圍都是農二那你覺得這粉紅色應該化為什麼農四吧農二就是優良的農地嘛對嘛那所以它整個這個粉紅色完全被農二包圍著所以這個農二這個粉紅色要化為什麼還是陳部長"},{"start":301.645,"end":329.051,"text":"我覺得這個要實際看它的一個面積跟它的一個區位農事啦我告訴你啦現在這個化為農事啦對那個是農事那個聚落是農事好啦這個粉紅色化為農事啦好來下一張圖下一張圖來這一個紅色我要問你的是紅色的你猜它被化為什麼它被農一農二包圍著啊它的周圍都是農地啊那你猜它被化為什麼也不用猜啦這是實際上已經發生的對啊"},{"start":330.401,"end":351.109,"text":"他是乘二之一阿他是乘二之一那你剛剛說農事和乘二之一不一樣那我再把你這兩張圖合併在一起院長這裡是哪裡你知道嗎這裡這裡就是我新北英哥和隔壁桃園阿"},{"start":352.316,"end":379.223,"text":"這裡就是我們在人為的行政區上畫了一條線可是我眼睛看過去它是同樣的一片地呀我的農地不會說在這個空中給你設立一個高牆說新北在這裡桃園在這裡我就是一望而去相同的農地然後我有兩個聚落可是因為它分別在新北市和桃園市它被畫出來的不一樣"},{"start":380.267,"end":386.75,"text":"那所以我的英哥鄉親當然就問我啦就問我說 欸 委員啊 為什麼一樣的農地點館 啊我是農事 啊他是成二之一 啊這中來的發展會不一樣嗎"},{"start":393.931,"end":401.373,"text":"我可以很清楚的回答 但是第二到底為什麼他是農事 隔壁是乘二之一 這個我就不太清楚了 難怪他們的心中會有很大的問號"},{"start":418.596,"end":445.652,"text":"所以我覺得今天在這裡因為他有太多太多的例外條件比如說他有可能說我這個地方將來還有什麼城市興起的狀況城市發展不同條件這個不同縣市層級的地方政府他們有不同的藍圖想像那當然就有不同的狀況嘛所以我會認為的是當地方政府報上來之後其實中央"},{"start":446.713,"end":457.985,"text":"中央應該要有全國一致的審查標準我認為這才是國土計畫的精神展現之所在院長你同意我的看法嗎"},{"start":464.454,"end":481.791,"text":"是 所以我的進一步主張更甚至是 其實應該是我們要催促地方政府趕快上出來留給中央足夠完備的時間來審查 欸審查不可能是只有勾和插就把你退件 不可能 這一定是來來回回一個很長的過程"},{"start":482.992,"end":509.739,"text":"所以地方政府如果要真的保護大家的權益其實他也應該要趕快送出來來跟地方來跟中央做討論然後為什麼這個地方是這樣畫那樣畫有什麼樣的規矩阿全國其他的地方怎麼畫最後讓中央層級大家有一定的標準把它建制下來我認為這才是國土規劃的精神阿不是應該這樣嗎第一個我們希望他今年的6月30要送來"},{"start":510.379,"end":527.923,"text":"現在已經延誤了 明年的4月30 截止5月就開始實施 這第一個再來我們希望是 照國土計畫法的45條是一併公告才能保障該有多少土地做什麼樣的使用 全國一致的這個視野來看那這兩個目前來看都有相當的困難"},{"start":528.74,"end":546.42,"text":"是啊所以我其實瞭解國土計畫的好處而且甚至我等一下還可以跟院長的兩位部長報告其實國土計畫上路更好的地方是它還可以解決很多長年多年沒有辦法解決的問題這真的是好事啊"},{"start":546.84,"end":567.414,"text":"可是第一資訊傳達的不夠清楚第二全國的標準是否一致讓人民的感受覺得公平我覺得這兩大問題其實是應該要被解決才有辦法如期上路這是我誠心的從地方反應過來的意見但解方是什麼解方是地方政府計畫要趕快送來啦"},{"start":568.895,"end":569.996,"text":"內政部、農業部都非常積極請內政部說明一下他的進度"},{"start":590.02,"end":606.601,"text":"是謝謝委員：我想委員剛所提到的非常的正確其實國土計畫它有二級審議它在一級審議在地方政府審議的時候有他們的功能但是它也可以跟我們的中央來討論問題是現在不願意送上來他們講的理由跟我們所知道的是完全是背道而馳"},{"start":607.202,"end":607.322,"text":"主席"},{"start":627.378,"end":627.418,"text":"蘇巧慧議員"},{"start":649.554,"end":665.021,"text":"就表示說還是可以整理還是可以跟群眾來溝通那如果溝通上有困難需要我們解決的部分的話我們跟農業部都非常樂意來幫忙解決而不是以完全說我不想這樣這件事做改觀這樣反而會拖延了國土計畫未來的功能"},{"start":665.481,"end":684.517,"text":"而且部長我覺得你應該要讓民眾除了剛剛誤解的部分要能夠澄清之外要讓大家能夠理解真正能夠保障權益反而是好的國土計畫上路上路之後是真正保障權益這個部分要讓大家能夠理解不是不送反而是這樣的狀況"},{"start":686.859,"end":709.795,"text":"計劃送了之後 中央要有足夠時間審議才完整的上路這是我的主張 我也不是主張衝突的直接把國土計劃上路我認為這是不合理的為什麼 我再讓你看下一題你就會知道國土計劃把他上路之前要做的前置作業其實非常的多院長可能不是很清楚新北的部分因為畢竟我們在新北比較久"},{"start":710.856,"end":736.671,"text":"新北其實有13個地區我們新北29區竟然有13個區是含有礦區土地的喔礦區不是只在新北的少少地方是包括有土樹山陰啊甚至其他地方有13個地區都過去有採礦行為而因為採礦它就變成礦區土地結果現在不採了以後會變成什麼它就變成廢礦區土地部長"},{"start":737.631,"end":764.559,"text":"你可以解釋一下跟大家說明一下廢礦區土地現在可以怎麼利用嗎沒有辦法利用什麼都不能用嘛除非沒有公告是啊所以它一定成為廢礦區土地它除了既有的房舍你可以修繕之外房舍你要新增你要增建不行更不要說我如果在這個地方我將來想要做礦區的文物 歷史 觀光 興建什麼都不行什麼都不行結果它佔了清北這麼大的面積這個問題難道不解決嗎"},{"start":767.04,"end":787.623,"text":"所以我會認為其實國土計劃如果能夠上路的話我們的礦區問題其實才有解方啊而且而且在國但是不是應該而且啦應該是但是但是剛剛一再的說嘛開宗明義國土計劃只保障在國土計劃上路前合法的部分嘛"},{"start":788.183,"end":802.81,"text":"所以如果他現在還是不合法那將來國土計畫上路他也不合法啊他即便是地目被調整了但他的權益還是有問題所以在這個地方為什麼我要利用總質詢的部分跟院長請教就是"},{"start":803.49,"end":830.047,"text":"我發現我們新北的礦區土地甚至包含了特專區在瑞芳京九地區有當年的國營事業就是採金礦的台金公司所留下來的大範圍的特專區特定專用區這其實是需要經濟部也要下來能夠一起解決不然的話我們這個你知道嗎這個我們如果要變更的話其實是需要提出事業這個"},{"start":831.448,"end":850.389,"text":"事業目的使用計畫 結果這個事業目的使用計畫經過35年 現在在哪裡沒有人知道 中央也沒有人知道 地方也沒有人知道沒有任何人知道的狀況下 那這個地方要怎麼變更申請根本無解啊 所以在國土計畫上路之前 有相當多的配套措施 也就是要讓我們"},{"start":851.61,"end":852.391,"text":"不曉得部長今天在這裡聽到我們的呼籲是不是可以"},{"start":868.186,"end":889.043,"text":"要求拜託督促協助也協助啦新北市政府趕快處理這個問題那院長以您的高度是不是可以拜託請相關的各部會就是剛剛由鄉點名的農業部經濟部甚至文化部等等能夠一起下來幫我們解決這樣礦區土地的再利用重利用的問題這是我的請求"},{"start":891.465,"end":906.896,"text":"謝謝委員從520以來我們一直認為國土激發法是一個非常重要而且必須實施的所以剛剛您說的包括內政部都一直在跟地方做一些溝通尤其是在最近這幾個月下來因為6月30一過我們知道時程已經相當的急迫了"},{"start":907.256,"end":933.822,"text":"希望在明年4月之前有充裕的時間做二級的審查所以這個活動我們一直在進行當中這樣我如果去到這個礦區的這個地方告訴他們原來這個法跟你們的未來是息息相關你多年的問題終於可以因為這個法通過解決大家都會鼓掌拍手我覺得這就是解釋的問題啦委員說的國土計畫不只在解決農地的問題是解決國家土地充分利用的問題所以我非常期待不會動起來大家一起努力"},{"start":936.84,"end":937.682,"text":"謝謝蘇委員謝謝卓院長下一位請吳宗憲委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:18:35 - 11:34:20","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155039","gazette":{"lineno":948,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（11時18分）謝謝副院長。請卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：院長好，院長辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我想這麼多的委員，其實有很多都問到了一個相同的問題，就是我們非常關心的國土計畫法，所以我今天也想就這個問題來跟您請教。我想國土計畫法的重要性是非常清楚的，因為它就是讓全國的土地在規劃與利用有一致的標準，而且在進行詳細的調查之後，就未來我們國土功能分區的使用，它是會有一定的總量管制，這沒有問題，對不對？好，可是請問院長，為什麼現在感覺上國土計畫這麼好的一個法律要實施起來卻困難重重呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該清楚，我們國土計畫法的實施已經延過一次。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：再回頭過來，現在我們發現的問題，有幾個縣市是沒有送來它的功能表，有9個縣市，但是在說明的過程當中，我個人會覺得我們對國土計畫法的內容要說明清楚，讓廣大的農民朋友知道，但目前來看有它相當的困難，原始的設計是不是現在沒有辦法被大家了解、接受，但是我們還是請內政部跟農業部持續跟還沒有送來的地方政府繼續再溝通。"],["蘇委員巧慧：院長，你有講到一個點，我也非常同意，其實我認為現在實施的困難真的是兩個面向，第一個是民眾對於國土計畫法的規定不太了解，所以很多的反對其實是來自於誤解，比如說第一個，他們就不清楚國土計畫法的重要精神之一就是保障既有的合法權益，只要你是既有的合法權益其實這是完全受保護的，不管你是屬於哪一種，未來被分在哪一種類別上面，既有權益、合法權益是完全被保障，但這個資訊其實不夠清楚。第二個，因為主要的規劃權力就是在地方政府，所以相同的地貌有可能會因為它在不同的縣市、不同的主管單位，劃出來不太一樣的功能分區，這當然民眾心中就有所不平。","院長，所以我今天就讓你實務看一下，你有看過這一張表嗎？俗稱圈叉表，院長有看過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道圈叉表……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有看過？這就是我們國土功能的分區未來容許使用的情形，所以它的不同類別，將來圈圈叉叉就代表它可以或不可以。好，那我就問你，你知道圈圈叉叉是什麼嗎？還是劉部長你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是管制的強度，圈是允許……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯，就是它的管制強度不同，所以已經分成5種不同類別的管制密度。好，再這樣下去的話，你看看，我們再回到剛剛的分類上面來講的話，可以show一下我的表單嗎？讓院長看一下，不同類別它真的後面的圈和叉，和它的實心上面有數字等等，真的不一樣，可見得你被分在哪一類，確實就會有不同的發展，這個院長同意吧？沒問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，院長，你知道農4和城2-1的差別嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個可能要……"],["蘇委員巧慧：農4和城2-1。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，在……"],["蘇委員巧慧：簡答就好，我時間很短。"],["陳部長駿季：農4的部分就是原來鄉村區聚落的部分，跟原住民聚落的部分是規劃在農4……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，就是同樣是一個聚落，如果周圍都是農地把你包圍著，你就是農4嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：如果旁邊不見得全部都是農地包圍，你就有可能是城2-1嘛！簡單來講是這樣，當然還會有很多細部的例外條件等等，如果簡單來講是這個樣子，表示著它就是劃分標準不一樣嘛！劃分標準和未來的使用方式就是城2-1和農4的最大差別。","那我現在來讓你看這張圖，院長，你看一下這張圖，現在粉紅色我框起來的這個部分，它的周圍都是農2，那你覺得這個粉紅色應該劃為什麼？農4吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：農2就是優良的農地嘛！"],["蘇委員巧慧：對嘛！這個粉紅色完全被農2包圍著，所以這個粉紅色要劃為什麼？還是陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得這個要實際看它的面積跟區位。"],["蘇委員巧慧：農4啦！我告訴你，現在這個劃為農4啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，那個是農4，那個聚落是農4沒有錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，這個粉紅色劃為農4啦！","來，下一張圖，我要問你的是這個紅色的，你猜它被劃為什麼？它被農1、農2包圍著，它的周圍也都是農地，那你猜它被劃為什麼？也不用猜啦！這是實際上已經發生的，它是城2-1啊！那你剛剛說農4和城2-1不一樣，我再把這兩張圖合併在一起，院長，這裡是哪裡你知道嗎？這裡就是我新北鶯歌和隔壁桃園，這裡就是我們在人為的行政區上劃了一條線，可是我眼睛看過去，它是同樣的一片地啊！我的農地不會說在這個空中給你設立一個高牆，說新北在這裡、桃園在這裡，就是一望而去相同的農地，然後我有兩個聚落，可是因為它分別在新北市及桃園市，它被劃出來的不一樣。所以當然我的鶯歌鄉親就問我啦，問我說：「委員啊，為什麼一樣的農地上面，我們是農4，它是城2-1，這將來的發展會不一樣嗎？我們的房子會被人拆嗎？」我當然是跟他說，第一，就是剛剛我們說的，你如果現在是合法的，未來也是合法，不管你是農4，還是城2-1，都一樣，這不用煩惱，這個我可以很清楚的回答。但是第二，到底為什麼它是農4而隔壁是城2-1，這個我就不太清楚了，難怪他們的心中會有很大的問號。","我覺得今天在這裡，因為它有太多太多的例外條件，比如說有可能我這個地方將來還有什麼城市興起的狀況……"],["陳部長駿季：城市發展的機會。"],["蘇委員巧慧：城市發展不同條件，不同縣市層級的地方政府他們有不同的藍圖想像，當然就有不同的狀況嘛！所以我會認為當地方政府報上來之後，其實中央應該要有全國一致的審查標準，這才是國土計畫精神展現之所在，院長，你同意我的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以明年4月之前我們應該有充裕的時間。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，所以我的進一步主張，其實我們應該要催促地方政府趕快送出來，留給中央足夠完備的時間來審查，審查不可能是只有「勾」和「叉」就把你退件，不可能，這一定是一個來來回回很長的過程。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以地方政府如果真的要保護大家的權益，其實它也應該要趕快送出來跟中央討論，為什麼這個地方是這樣劃？那樣劃有什麼樣的規矩？還有全國其他的地方怎麼劃，最後讓中央層級，大家有一定的標準，把它建置下來，我認為這才是國土規劃的精神，不是應該這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，我們希望它今年的6月30要送來，現在已經延誤了……"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在已經是10月1號了。"],["卓院長榮泰：明年的4月30截止，5月就開始實施，這是第一個。再來，我們希望照國土計畫法第四十五條是一併公告，才能保障該有多少土地做什麼樣的使用，用全國一致的視野來看，而這兩個目前來看都有相當的困難。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊，我其實瞭解國土計畫的好處，而且甚至等一下我還可以跟院長、兩位部長報告，國土計畫上路更好的地方是還可以解決很多長年、多年沒有辦法解決的問題，這真的是好事啊！可是第一，資訊傳達的不夠清楚；第二，全國的標準是否一致，讓人民感受公平，我覺得這兩大問題其實是應該要被解決，才有辦法如期上路，這是我誠心的從地方反映過來的意見。但解方是什麼？解方是地方政府計畫要趕快送來啦！地方政府如果沒有計畫送來，後面我們這些其實都不用談了，都是空談啦！這是我的想法。所以，我反而認為中央應該要花力氣在怎麼要求、鼓勵或者是棍子和紅蘿蔔啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：有，跟委員報告，內政部、農業部都非常的積極……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！要叫地方政府……"],["卓院長榮泰：可以請內政部說明一下它的進度。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員，我想委員剛剛所提到的非常的正確，其實國土計畫有二級審議，它一級在地方政府審議的時候有他們的功能，但是它也可以跟我們中央來討論。問題是他們現在不願意送上來，而講的理由跟我們所知道的完全是背道而馳，譬如說對於農業地區的劃分，我們都知道有很多這樣規定的時候，包括比鄰的部分，當然就可以做比較好的審議的功能，但是你不願意把它放到審議機制裡面的時候就會變成各說各話，到後來就是我不願意送，不願意送反而會影響到未來國土計畫，對於臺灣全體國土的長久大計有比較長遠的影響，所以我們還是希望能夠從善如流，可以跟很多地方縣市政府多溝通，希望他們可以在一定時間內送上來。","譬如說新北市曾經有提到他們有兩千多件這樣的爭議，可是已經慢慢在解決當中，現在大概剩下800到1,200左右，表示說還是可以整理，還是可以跟群眾來溝通。如果溝通上有困難，有需要我們解決的部分的話，我們跟農業部都非常樂意來幫忙解決，而不是完全說我不送，這件事情就解決了，這樣反而會拖延了國土計畫未來的功能。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且部長，我覺得你應該除了剛剛誤解的部分要能夠澄清之外，要讓大家能夠理解，真正能夠保障權益的反而是好的國土計畫上路，上路之後才是真正保障權益，這個部分要讓大家能夠理解，不是不送……"],["劉部長世芳：而且合法的一定保障。"],["蘇委員巧慧：反而是這樣的狀況。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：計畫送了之後，中央要有足夠時間審議才完整的上路，這是我的主張，我也不是主張匆促的直接把國土計畫上路，我認為這是不合理的，為什麼？我再讓你看下一題，你就會知道國土計畫法上路之前要做的前置作業其實非常多，院長可能不是很清楚新北的部分，畢竟我們在新北比較久，新北共29區，竟然有13個區是含有礦區土地的，礦區不是只在新北的少少地方，是包括土、樹、三、鶯，甚至其他地方，有13個地區過去都有採礦行為，因為採礦就變成礦區土地，結果現在不採了以後會變成什麼？它就變成廢礦區土地。部長，你可以解釋一下，跟大家說明一下，廢礦區土地現在可以怎麼利用嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有辦法利用。"],["蘇委員巧慧：什麼都不能用，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：除非要公告……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，所以它一旦成為廢礦區土地，它除了既有的房舍可以修繕之外，房舍要新增、增建都不行，更不要說如果將來在這個地方想要做礦區的文物、歷史、觀光、興建，什麼都不行，什麼都不行的情況下占了新北這麼大的面積，這個問題難道不解決嗎？所以我認為國土計畫如果能夠上路，礦區問題其實才有解方，但是剛剛一再說，開宗明義，國土計畫只保障國土計畫上路前合法的部分，如果它現在還是不合法，將來國土計畫上路，它也不合法啊，即便地目被調整了，但權益還是有問題。","為什麼我要在這個地方利用總質詢跟院長請教，就是我發現新北的礦區土地，甚至包含了特專區，在瑞芳、金、九地區有當年的國營事業，也就是採金礦的臺金公司所留下來的大範圍特專區（特定專用區），這其實需要經濟部下來一起解決，不然的話，你知道嗎？這個如果要變更，其實需要提出事業目的使用計畫，結果這個事業目的使用計畫經過35年，現在在哪裡卻沒有人知道，中央也沒有人知道，地方也沒有人知道，在沒有任何人知道的狀況下，這個地方要怎麼變更申請？根本無解啊！","在國土計畫上路之前，有相當多的配套措施，要讓它可以成為合法的身分，以配合國土計畫去調整地目狀況，我認為這種前置作業也必須由中央督促地方政府趕快實施，不曉得部長今天在這裡聽到我們的呼籲，是不是可以要求、拜託督促，也協助新北市政府趕快處理這個問題？院長，以您的高度，是不是可以拜託請相關的各部會，就是剛剛點名的農業部、經濟部，甚至文化部等等，能夠一起下來幫我們解決礦區土地的再利用、重利用的問題？這是我的請求。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，從520以來，我們一直認為國土計畫法是一個非常重要而且必須實施的，所以剛剛您說的，包括內政部都一直在跟地方做一些溝通，尤其是最近這幾個月，因為6月30日一過，我們知道時程已經相當的急迫了，希望在明年4月之前，有充分的時間做二級的審查，這個我們一直在進行當中。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我如果去到礦區這個地方，我就告訴他們，原來這個法跟你們的未來息息相關，多年的問題終於可以因為這個法的通過而解決，大家都會鼓掌拍手，我覺得這就是解釋的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：如委員說的，國土計畫不只解決農地的問題，是解決國家土地充分利用的問題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，是解決國家的問題，所以我非常期待部會動起來，大家一起努力。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我們努力。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員，也謝謝卓院長。","下一位請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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要緊就緊 少年要講下我都不理你 我都提供我只要做訪查 我一定講下我一定講下 因為那些母語 很多人都講不記得 一定要帶頭因為他跟VNV在一起 親親友友一起討論我再問一件事情 昨天的NHKV也有輔助人員嗎"},{"start":306.88,"end":321.688,"text":"我記得以前是這樣,主委是南客,副主委是北客,北客是周主委,南客是南偏省,我認同這樣,現在在哪裡,北客沒有人在那裡?"},{"start":327.369,"end":330.31,"text":"這個我覺得我還有很大的遺憾就是這個谷主委來之後我們一直想"},{"start":350.575,"end":376.634,"text":"看他自己的狀況來填補一位副主委來協助他那目前還沒有適當的人員外界一直在猜測啦是不是北克沒有我們賴清德總統的人沒有沒有沒有剛剛我聽出來了這個委員有說到南克北克那因為副主委來自南部嘛我們一直希望在北部找一位熟悉地方熟悉文化那個也熟悉公共這個體系體系的人我現在是希望說我們客家客委會也好就是客委會"},{"start":377.174,"end":378.035,"text":"我們請兩位部長"},{"start":407.008,"end":435.084,"text":"院長我聽說本週五要喝一個溫暖的咖啡當然我希望這杯咖啡能夠融化你的心能夠把我們這個立法院的這個立場你要了解那我也希望你不要喝到不要點到冰的你要心裡還要喝熱一點好不好上週五咖啡很溫暖已經喝過了本週五希望有更溫暖的大火鍋那事實上我們這個"},{"start":436.496,"end":441.699,"text":"第一個網路上的訊息指責說是哪一方面的假消息所以福利會沒有津貼會領不到這個部分啊院長你認為勒"},{"start":463.032,"end":481.919,"text":"因為預算整體 到目前對我來講明年的預算到現在為止就是空的因為還沒有付尾 付尾之後實施審查就會產生任何的審訊但新增的事項新增的計畫就完全停擺跟原來的福利原來的津貼有什麼差別 有什麼不一樣"},{"start":483.479,"end":493.341,"text":"重點在於新政的今天明年有很多不要把這些事情就是用混淆的方式模糊焦點整個這樣打"},{"start":495.022,"end":520.198,"text":"帶動這個風向我們從來沒有這樣的表達過我們說預算是整體的需要能夠實質審查那當然為什麼我這樣講就是說我們也退一回我舉個例子就像我們小學的時候我們寫作業寫給了交了作業我們寫錯了老師叫我回去改當然也是應該很正常的對不對不能說寫錯了我們沒有依法便利預算"},{"start":521.001,"end":521.021,"text":"邱鎮軍議員"},{"start":530.868,"end":530.888,"text":"邱鎮軍議員"},{"start":554.705,"end":583.355,"text":"無法控制因為今天這個委員會來一個今天這個委員會來一個院長你講的都沒有錯但是我認同我認同你的論點但是立法院也不會無限上綱的去隨便去編列預算當然你們是編列預算的單位那我們是審預算的單位那當然如果我們立了法如果造成國家的這個財政的這個預算沒有辦法編列的時候你是不是就要主動出來溝通"},{"start":584.77,"end":586.071,"text":"原住民的預算才20幾億這會影響嗎"},{"start":602.165,"end":630.354,"text":"這不是錢多錢少的問題而且你要想想看從3萬塊的補償一下子增加為6萬比例上是百分之百的增加他已經十幾年沒有編列了沒有做但是也未曾有一項是這樣子況且這應該是由行政機關當時的這個我們的通膨也好就是當時的匯率來講當時也沒有那麼高所以現在錢越來越小我們只是把它提高對不對"},{"start":631.377,"end":648.063,"text":"提高我請問一下我們園民會是我也好你主委還在帛琉玩是擔任總統特使參加帛琉建國30週年我想請問你那你們講到你的意思是說不足的錢要用原住民綜合發展基金來補是嗎"},{"start":649.746,"end":674.273,"text":"這個在主計總署有做含釋在105年的時候就是說有關於進法補償的工作就是由公務預算跟原住民中央發展基金來對半來負擔那不足的部分未來基金有不服使用的部分現在基金有多少我們基金抱歉委員我沒聽清楚就是原住民的那個那個那個發展基金"},{"start":675.017,"end":702.314,"text":"我們現在還有20幾億的28億是嗎我們公務預算編列28億那你進法補償條例就要42億嘛那你們說會慢慢的說會如期來如何來發放這是你講過的嗎這個部分就是我們會合法那合理的來做什麼叫做合法合理合理法院的法還是合理我想行政機關就是依法來處理我們的政務那你有編預算嗎"},{"start":703.351,"end":723.046,"text":"有 公務預算編列28億阿你剩下怎麼辦我們基金有相關的預算你是挪用還是編列不是挪用 它是在基金基金只有28億不是嗎我們的基金管理辦法裡面支出的工作項目就包含金髮補償的這個項目但是你只有28億不是嗎"},{"start":724.721,"end":747.217,"text":"公務預算28億 那我們基金可以20億來去支應所以你可以發放就對了我們會合法合理來做這個工作我不希望這變成一個詐騙案啦好不好我希望說這個事情趕快政府不會詐騙市長請回齁副主委請回齁那我在 院長齁 我再請教齁"},{"start":748.285,"end":748.505,"text":"目前的進度在哪裡?"},{"start":767.294,"end":783.372,"text":"報告委員這個進度是昨天 院已經合下來了所以本會議就會準備行文到各部會開始進入規劃跟可言等進度所以他現在已經剛通過就對了對那苗栗的部分"},{"start":784.208,"end":808.656,"text":"我們現在怎麼規劃?您這邊有規劃嗎?苗栗像頭份、竹南、厚隆都有在匡列在裡面這三塊地都有匡列在裡面?是的那我想的話,因為這個對地方來講是非常重要的一件事情包含桃竹苗整個廊帶我們如果能夠發展起來尤其對苗栗來講苗南地區特別需要這樣的一個辦法那我也當然希望我們聽說我們有編列200億的預算是嗎?"},{"start":813.332,"end":830.677,"text":"這主要細部還是要看各部會的規劃各部會是對我們這邊是上位政策做整體桃竹苗的規劃以後進入細部會規劃譬如說經濟部他們會規劃產業園區然後各單位都會有交通部等等都會有各項的建設請部長講一下"},{"start":832.325,"end":852.86,"text":"報告委員 在後龍產業籌備用地的部分苗栗縣政府已經完成設置可行性的評估報告書之後將依產創條例競速審查並寒轉行政院審議 核定為重大的建設所以這個案子在進行中"},{"start":853.342,"end":875.062,"text":"已經進行了啦,那我希望就盡快啦好不好,讓地方上能夠有一個依據,我們其實地方上是非常期待,那也希望這個案子趕快確定,我們可以先做其他的事情,讓我們地方知道,讓地方來配合好不好?沒有,他都是在…那我們兩位部長請回去"},{"start":877.944,"end":883.947,"text":"這就是新增計畫這也是賴總統選前的一個政見拜託委員支持這個新增計畫才能如期推動謝謝院長我再請教一下你有沒有覺得我們潘孟安秘書長是一個優秀的屏東縣長"},{"start":907.063,"end":935.51,"text":"他在現場任期內評比很高地方民眾對他的支持度也很高我也很佩服他啦就是他把這個限制嚴格的農一劃在公有地4萬公頃的優良私有農地劃在農二還把應該劃農五的都計內的農地全部改劃到城鄉發展區那在我看來他非常勇於挑戰中央而且最後還讓中央妥協"},{"start":936.345,"end":963.207,"text":"你們說 地方政府作為規劃主體 屏東農地設置的爭議中 中央向地方妥協是符合國土規劃的原則 這句話沒有錯吧國土規劃是整體國家土地充分利用 資源利用那既然這樣子 既然全縣在地方 還有縣市也還沒交 有的還沒審過 那麼其他的縣市如果比照我們屏東這樣的話 您會支持嗎"},{"start":964.516,"end":967.883,"text":"這要地方政府跟我們農業單位跟內政部都來充分的"},{"start":969.551,"end":996.002,"text":"協調出一個合理的狀況來我跟委員說明就是現在地方政府在劃的農業發展區不只是農一農二農一到農五的劃出的區域那他是有他相關的一個規範跟指引那最主要是由原來的特農或一般農為基底去做轉成的那至於說地方政府劃出來了以後那有很多東西是可以有做調整的一個空間"},{"start":996.642,"end":1023.952,"text":"我們會依據實際的狀況跟現政府當地的一個產業發展的需求而做一個溝通你是講的意思是說每個縣市不同嗎一定是每因為到現在目前為止就是整個的土地的農地的一個是用總量管制的概念但是並沒有規定說地方政府一定要劃多少那我們有一個劃設指引那劃設指引如果說有一些"},{"start":1024.552,"end":1026.173,"text":"苗栗縣五個水庫影響了非常多農民的權益"},{"start":1050.406,"end":1077.257,"text":"市府保育又匡慮了很多的土地不能夠不好動因為管制又更嚴了現在再加上國土計畫法我希望我們中央一定要多為我們苗栗鄉親來考量因為說真的做牧農的人他們日子過得真的不是很好當土地越來越沒有價值的時候你要教他們怎麼活下去我希望"},{"start":1077.847,"end":1103.865,"text":"我們中央能夠考量到這一點因為苗栗比較特殊我更希望苗栗有一種特別的規劃方式這樣可以嗎這個跟委員報告只要苗栗縣政府把相關的國土計畫送上來我們內政部會秉持相關的原則來跟苗栗縣做討論所有的各縣市基本上也都是這樣你們現在急著明年要實施嗎"},{"start":1104.81,"end":1119.141,"text":"我們現在奉行政院的指示我們會積極跟各縣市政府溝通藍綠的委員大家都非常重視這個問題因為地方上確實聽到非常多的聲音我希望我們行政院這邊能夠聽取民意"},{"start":1122.433,"end":1140.039,"text":"能夠把這個事情如果暫緩兩年不是不執行我們不是不執行只是說暫緩兩年讓大家有更多一點的時間來溝通我覺得這才是好的不要一個這樣這麼重要的一個法案如果直接推動的時候如果沒有配套沒有做好真的會引起民憂"},{"start":1141.18,"end":1159.891,"text":"跟委員報告我們第一個站在內政部的立場我們當然要依法執行那第二個就是說行政院已經有指示我們會進行跟全面的地方的溝通對那這個相關的溝通也包括說跟大院這邊的溝通那大院這邊有什麼決定我們會遵從我相信這個案子一定會過啦就是說延緩兩年這個部分"},{"start":1166.595,"end":1183.741,"text":"我們已經給你台階下了,那你們趕快趁這兩年時間趕快去處理好不好我們會積極努力去處理相關的法律的修訂,包括執法那也跟委員報告,其實苗栗縣跟嘉義市也已經在媒體上告訴大家說他們會送國土計劃法"},{"start":1185.376,"end":1186.116,"text":"我覺得政策推動現在一定要因地制宜"},{"start":1214.932,"end":1215.613,"text":"我們之前有再問到我們才化法的部分"},{"start":1241.513,"end":1270.612,"text":"我們尊重行政院展現了很大的善意在上個會期我們也有先暫緩一下也希望我們行政院能夠提出政院版的財化法的修正案目前您行政院這邊有沒有什麼新的做法嗎有沒有新的計畫我應該了解財化法它本身是一個非常龐大的計算工程財政部在8月份跟9月份分別跟地方政府"},{"start":1272.178,"end":1283.086,"text":"是繼續做很多次的溝通那我想像現在他即使到目前為止也沒有辦法得出一個大家都能夠接受的方式出來那我會請財政部繼續來談這個事情是請財政部來說明一下嗎"},{"start":1291.672,"end":1312.244,"text":"這個照人口比例去分就好了嗎跟委員報告我想財化法的修正涉及到財政的資源的重分配對各級政府來說都是影響非常重大的所以我們在做這個財化法修正的時候第一個除了要照顧地方政府的一個需要同時中央的財政也一定要維持一定的一個韌性"},{"start":1313.244,"end":1333.231,"text":"那過往有5次 從88年到現在有5次送立法院審議都沒有能夠修正通過就是因為沒有共識沒有共識主要是因為分配的機制大家都還有爭議那所以這一次我們會在分配機制上我們認為要充分的討論你那時候是送立法院對不對那這一次立法院如果通過了你們遵不遵守"},{"start":1334.617,"end":1355.619,"text":"這部分我們認為應該要審慎的規劃來行動那這一次我們來幫你解決嘛這個如果是很貿然而是為了要求快通過的話那事實上會造成更大的爭議那未來在公平分配上其實會影響更大也跟委員報告才化法雖然沒有能夠修正但是我們在"},{"start":1356.34,"end":1358.022,"text":"你不要講那個啦,但是我就覺得我們要立民又補到錢啊"},{"start":1371.499,"end":1395.574,"text":"我苗栗就是沒有補到啦有啊苗栗也是有分啦你那是一般建設有些東西我們講難聽一點啦如果錢給我們自己我們來規劃那我們當然苗栗現在還因為負債嘛對不對我們可以更好的規劃我們的財政預算那現在完全靠中央給我們要還到什麼時候你們的錢只是建設啊那我們永遠苗栗在負債"},{"start":1397.643,"end":1408.425,"text":"財務的部分因為苗栗過往財務事實上是有超限目前來說在地方政府努力下已經有這樣子很多了那整個財政紀律沒有維持已經不符合現在的我們的需求了嗎不會我覺得這個部分在一般性的補助款中間種族也給予支持那我再問那就是現在假如立法院通過之後你們怎麼辦"},{"start":1427.915,"end":1455.791,"text":"我覺得這個是一個高度共識的一個法案才可以那雖然說過去幾年財法法沒有做過任何的修訂但是逐年中央對地方的補助是一再的增加剛剛部長也講到了明年度我們高達增加了900億我們中央的稅 國稅的部分那一般的補助增長超過一倍中央總預算已經突破三兆了可是地方稅收的成長率卻只有13%"},{"start":1457.438,"end":1483.164,"text":"而且法定支出越來越多你懂我意思嗎你這造成地方上的真的是非常的辛苦以前錢通通抓在中央沒有沒有沒有我們對一般補助統籌分配款都有相當的挹注給地方而且因為逐年的增加那過去的數字部長再說明一下像今年跟明年我們就明年又增加的相當大那今年實際上也增加了對地方所以院長您的意思"},{"start":1483.82,"end":1494.711,"text":"您的意思 財化法這一次 您還是不準備動啊 準備不調了我覺得要有充分討論 而且要有共識 這樣子通過才有意義你說這些縣市 妳們找來溝通 妳找誰來溝通"},{"start":1499.161,"end":1526.446,"text":"各地方政府以及部會都有來我們在這個分配的指標上在財政努力還有基本建設需求這部分都已經中國討論而且有初步的成果那後續必須對於權重還有調整係數的部分都還要做精緻的一個規劃我這樣講當然我們現在立法院的那個版本到底適不適用這個我不多講但是我認為大家要出來談你來談我們大家才會有空間"},{"start":1527.403,"end":1536.319,"text":"不是說一定要照我們立法院的版本你把你們的立場講出來但是你一定要願意退啊你懂我意思嗎你不能說我就是這樣子我就不跟你談"},{"start":1537.708,"end":1558.696,"text":"這不是中央退的問題是中央地方一起進步的問題我們一起進步就是中央會用更多的資源役注在地方需要的縣市我們絕對不是用人口來做唯一的標準比例剛剛部長講了很多有他各種的條件算出來這是一個複雜的財政資源分配的一個計算工程"},{"start":1560.092,"end":1579.88,"text":"我認為啦就是說現在我們台灣的政治氛圍我希望大家能夠坐下來好好談你們如果不談這個案子還是會通過那通過的時候我們要請我們大法官保姆來保護你們嗎所以立法院通過的東西你們都不承認是不是你乾脆請大法官出來把我們立法院講的都不算就好了"},{"start":1580.575,"end":1607.52,"text":"我當然希望立法行政兩院的互動能夠非常的平實而且非常能夠依照各種法律來進行願計分立這個問題要非常的遵守我真的希望台灣更好地方更好那我也不希望看到藍綠的惡鬥那我們希望我們大家一起努力往前走好不好是我們當然希望中央跟地方大家都一起好所以在整個分配的機制上我們必須要做更詳細更細緻的一個規劃好"},{"start":1616.266,"end":1638.731,"text":"我們全面開放輔導五縣市的食品你們的理由是回歸科學從2011年到現在邊境檢驗輻射23.5萬多批檢測結果均符合我國標準及日本標準不合格為零那你有沒有告訴大家日本的檢驗批數是多少"},{"start":1640.946,"end":1660.012,"text":"現在狀況是日本禁止的我國就禁止在周遭五線原來有一些禁止的所以我們是聽日本的跟著日本的腳步走日本說吃就是可以吃日本說不能吃我們就不能吃是這樣嗎這還是符合國際的標準國際的檢驗標準"},{"start":1662.232,"end":1664.373,"text":"我看了一下報告從110年到112年6月日本檢驗的P數總共183萬4681P這期間驗了21萬1370P也就是說我們的這個比例只有九分之一"},{"start":1683.288,"end":1690.429,"text":"我們是在我們的邊境我們在我們的邊境檢驗阿13年來我們在我們邊境檢驗的數量你有沒有檢驗到也沒有檢驗過到輻射嗎沒有13年來檢驗邊境檢驗的23.5萬批次都符合我們現在的標準那這個也跟國際檢測那我再問一下靜岡縣的那個抹茶靜岡還不是福島五縣市喔它今年2月到7月十幾趴的抽驗率就抽出兩批有輻射"},{"start":1714.758,"end":1739.977,"text":"那除了日本禁止之外原來我們禁止的我們還是會採取雙證件的方式第一個他的產地第一個他的輻射證明會用雙證件來審查這樣子啦我覺得是這樣啦人民的標準他只有0跟1啦沒有什麼我一點點你只能告訴他這個能不能吃能不能吃我們希望政府我們邱部長你應該好好把這個把關好"},{"start":1741.204,"end":1766.583,"text":"這是我們第一個原則優先食品安全那是以科學的證據以及跟國際的接軌這個是共同的標準我曾經看了一個報導我們對日本很好我們那個毛豆我們進口到他們的關稅是6%多其他國家是4%多他其實也沒有對我們很好"},{"start":1767.589,"end":1767.709,"text":"時間剩下40秒了"},{"start":1795.413,"end":1810.832,"text":"我希望最後來,我們碳費審議的作業,現在大概決定是300塊開始還是?我們還有自主減量,我們還有優惠措施,那明年會開始計算明年已經出來了嗎?"},{"start":1813.946,"end":1833.409,"text":"報告委員那個10月7號有最後一次的審議委員會預計優惠費率應該會出來那您預計是多少目前我看到委員的討論大概是100塊的上下應該會先這樣走對一個範圍你要循序漸進不要讓我們企業一下通通沒辦法大家都沒辦法接受大家都跑掉了"},{"start":1842.213,"end":1843.116,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員也謝謝卓院長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:47:22 - 11:18:08","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155038","gazette":{"lineno":713,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時47分）主席，麻煩請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長好。我想問一下，您在宣布內閣人事的時候說過支持客家朋友的權益及客家文化的保存是我們執政黨長期以來的一個目標，我身為客家人，聽到是非常的高興，也滿感動的，但是最近教育部說行政院要把閩南語改成臺語，我就覺得很奇怪，我請教一下院長，客語是臺灣的語言嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我曾經說過幾次，這個都是國家語言，我們就用國家語言來認定所有在這裡通用的語言。"],["邱委員鎮軍：原住民語言也是……"],["卓院長榮泰：包括手語都是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：剛剛我看到陳玉珍委員也提到他們的金門話、金門語言也算是我們臺灣的語言，既然通通都是，那為什麼行政院這一次要把閩南語特別改成臺語呢？"],["李部長遠：我可以回答嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：可以。"],["李部長遠：我覺得今天會有這個規定是因為早期大家獨尊華語，把所有其他語言都消滅，這個語言法是要把一些要被消滅的語言重新恢復，所以才會有這個法，那麼全部加一個「臺灣」是因為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你說閩南語會被消滅啊？"],["李部長遠：差不多啊，其實會講閩南語的人不多。今天我們講閩南語也好、臺語也好，的確是跟過去比起來，差不多四十幾歲以下的人就不會講了，閩南語或者臺語的確一直在消滅中，所以我們會訂這個法，其實是想把所有在臺灣的語言都變成國家語言，以前我們的國家語言是華語嘛！"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以您是覺得客家話跟原住民語都不重要嗎？"],["李部長遠：同時在消失，所以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！那為什麼這些沒有一起編列……"],["李部長遠：對於客家或者原住民語的消失跟文化保存，我們專門設了委員會，其實對於整個語言今天大家會有爭辯，都來自於早期我們獨尊華語，把它定義成國語，其他語言都慢慢被消失。其實我們的語言法就是這麼簡單，現在的國家語言是保障沒看到……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我也看到我們國家語言發展報告的網站，特別標註我們行政院請各機關優先使用臺灣原住民語言、臺灣客語、臺灣臺語，還有馬祖語、臺灣手語等等，都算是。當然，我也認同我們生長在中華民國這塊土地上，所有的族群都是臺灣人，所以每個族群用的語言都是我們臺灣話，也是臺語，尤其在教育上，文化、藝術不應該有政治的考量來介入。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望大家一視同仁，因為都是住在這一塊土地，好不好？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個可以把它編進去，我們可以把它編在……"],["李部長遠：是，我們會公平對待所有語言。"],["邱委員鎮軍：客委會，你認同嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：委員好，委員好，委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你認同剛才講的這個嗎？當時你怎麼沒出來講話？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，我們有出來表達，我們有出來表達，就是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：在哪裡表達？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們在媒體上也有說過，就是基於名從主人……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你可以講客家話嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：可以、可以。就是過去我們講的河洛人，他們講河洛話，他們自己本身就說「我說臺語」這樣，所以他們長期都這樣講，現在就是名從主人，稱為臺灣臺語，是這樣。同樣地，我們也尊重客家人對河洛人，因為我們就說它是河洛話，不會說它是臺語，所以自稱跟他稱我們都會尊重，這其實就包含所有的族群尊重跟包容的特性。"],["邱委員鎮軍：主委，我相信是這樣，我希望你站在我們客家人的立場上，為我們客家鄉親、客家人多爭取，不要被人說看不起……"],["古主任委員秀妃：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我們越來越弱勢，年輕人現在說真的越來越少人會講客家話，我們在苗栗、我們在地方上，我只要跑行程，我一定講客家話，我一定講客家話。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，這需要大家努力。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為這是我們的母語，不能說我們不記得，我們一定要帶頭，尤其客家委員會是我們一個很重要的單位。我再問一件事情，為什麼我們現在沒看到客委會副主委？"],["古主任委員秀妃：因為這個部分有去找，但是很多……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我記得以前是這樣，主委是南客，我們副主委就要北客，對嗎？北客做主委，副主委就要到南客找，我也認同這樣，為什麼到現在我們北客沒人才，是不是？這是你決定，還是上面決定的？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們可以來……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你可以決定嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們可以來找人才、請人才。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我問主委，你可以決定嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：聘用的權力還是要由院長……"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是要院長決定。副主委是要院長決定嗎？還是要……"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得我還有很大的遺憾，就是古主委來之後，我們一直想看他自己的狀況來填補一位副主委協助他，到目前還沒有適當的人選。"],["邱委員鎮軍：外界直在猜測，是不是北客沒有我們賴清德總統的人？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，剛剛我聽出來了，委員有說到南客、北客，因為古主委來自南部，我們一直希望在北部找一位熟悉地方、熟悉文化、也熟悉公共體系的人。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們是這樣講，我現在是希望我們客家、客委會也好，客委會現在無論主委是南客、還是北客，我們都歡迎，只要是為客家人做事情，我們當然全部都支持，只是我希望在北客、我們副主委的部分趕快提出來，讓我們多一個溝通的管道，這樣對主委來講，我們地方上才能夠發展得更平均一點，這樣可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的、好的，我們儘快來處理……"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，我們來找人才。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也請主委能夠尋找一個優秀的人選來出任副主委。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，請兩位部長回去。院長，我聽說了，本週五要喝一個溫暖的咖啡，當然，我希望這一杯咖啡能夠融化你的心，能夠把我們立法院的立場讓你了解，我也希望你不要點到冰的，你要儘量喝熱一點的，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：上週五咖啡很溫暖，已經喝過了，本週五希望有更溫暖的大火鍋。"],["邱委員鎮軍：事實上，查核中心告訴大家，預算被退回、福利沒了、津貼領不到是假消息，但民進黨網軍、民意代表一直在散播假的消息，就這個部分你要不要跟大家說明一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，網路上的訊息指責的是哪一方面的假消息，這個要進一步……"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是福利會沒有、津貼會領不到這個部分，院長，你認為呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為預算整體到目前對我來講，明年的預算到現在為止就是空的，因為還沒有付委，付委之後實質審查就會產生……"],["邱委員鎮軍：一般性的支出是不會影響的。"],["卓院長榮泰：但新增的事項、新增的計畫就完全停擺。"],["邱委員鎮軍：跟原來的福利、原來的津貼有什麼差別？有什麼不一樣呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：重點在於新增的，明年有很多……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對嘛！你不要把這些事情用混淆的方式模糊焦點，整個這樣帶動這個風向……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們從來沒有這樣表達過，我們說預算是整體的，希望能夠實質審查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然啊！我舉個例子，就像我們小學的時候寫作業交了作業，但是我們寫錯了，老師叫我回去改，當然也是應該，這是很正常的，對不對？不能說寫錯了，你沒有依法編列預算，你沒有照著法規編列預算的時候，我們跟你講，然後你卻跟我說是老師不對。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們預算編列制定的過程、程序是有它一定的，行政院負責制定和編列，立法院負責審議，在制定的過程當中，行政院有整體的考量，如果一個提案或一個法律就能夠增加一些預算的話……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那要立法院幹什麼呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：那以後沒有辦法編預算，以後預算會膨脹到無法控制，因為今天這個委員會來一個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我認同，院長講的都沒有錯，我認同你的論點，但是立法院也不會無限上綱地隨便編列預算，當然，你們是編列預算的單位，我們是審預算的單位，如果我們立了法造成國家財政預算沒有辦法編列的時候，你是不是就要主動出來溝通，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：當時我們希望不要朝那個方向跟結果發展，結果變成跟原意不一樣，所以會變成現在此例一開……"],["邱委員鎮軍：原住民的預算才二十幾億，這會影響嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是錢多錢少的問題，而且你要想想看，從三萬塊的補償一下子增加為六萬，比例上是百分之百的增加。"],["邱委員鎮軍：它已經十幾年沒有編列了、沒有修改了。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，但是也未曾有一項是這樣子，況且這應該是由行政機關……"],["邱委員鎮軍：當時的時空背景、當時的通膨也好，或是以當時的匯率來講也沒有那麼高，現在錢越來越小，我們只是把它提高，請問原民會，主委還在帛琉玩啊？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：委員好。是，擔任總統特使參加帛琉建國30週年。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛才講到你的意思是不足的錢要用原住民綜合發展基金來補，是嗎？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：這個主計總處在105年的時候有做出函釋，有關於禁伐補償的工作就是由公務預算跟原住民綜合發展基金對半來負擔，不足的部分，未來基金有不敷使用的部分……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在基金有多少？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：抱歉！委員，我沒聽清楚。"],["邱委員鎮軍：原住民的發展基金。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我們現在還有二十幾億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：28億是嗎？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我們公務預算編列28億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：禁伐補償條例就要42億，你們說會慢慢如期如額來發放，這是你講過的嗎？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：這個部分我們會合法合理的來做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：什麼叫做合法合理？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：就是依法來辦理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：依立法院的法還是行政院的法？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我想行政機關就是依法來處理我們的政務。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你有編預算嗎？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：有，公務預算編列28億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不夠啊！剩下的怎麼辦？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我們基金有相關的預算。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你是挪用，還是編列？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：不是挪用。"],["邱委員鎮軍：基金只有28億，不是嗎？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我們的基金管理辦法裡面支出的工作項目就包含禁伐補償工作這個項目。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是你只有28億，不是嗎？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：公務預算28億，我們的基金有20億可以去支應。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以可以發放就對了？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我們會合法合理來做這個工作。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我不希望這變成一個詐騙案，好不好？我希望說這個事情趕快進行。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：政府不會詐騙。"],["邱委員鎮軍：副主委請回。我再請教院長，上個會期我們在6月的時候有質詢過，本席向院長請教過我們桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，當然地方上是非常重視這個案子，我想請教目前的進度到哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：請劉主委回答。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：報告委員，這個進度是昨天院已經核下來了，所以本會就會準備行文到各部會開始進入規劃跟可研等進度。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以現在已經剛通過就對了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對！"],["邱委員鎮軍：那苗栗的部分現在怎麼規劃，您這邊有計畫嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：苗栗像頭份、竹南、後龍都有匡列在裡面。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這三塊地都有匡列在裡面？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：Yes，是的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為這對地方來講是非常重要的一件事情，包含桃竹苗整個廊帶，如果能夠發展起來，尤其對苗栗來講，苗南地區特別需要這樣的一個辦法，聽說你們有編列兩百億的預算是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：主要細部還是要看各部會的規劃。"],["邱委員鎮軍：各部會是誰？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們這邊是上位政策做整體桃竹苗的規劃以後進入細部規劃，譬如說經濟部會規劃產業園區，然後各單位像交通部等等都會有各項的建設。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請部長講一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，在後龍產業籌備用地的部分，苗栗縣政府已經完成設置可行性的評估報告書之後，將依產創條例儘速審查，並函轉行政院審議核定為重大建設，所以這個案子在進行中。"],["邱委員鎮軍：已經進行了啦！"],["郭部長智輝：對！"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望儘快啦，好不好？讓地方上能夠有一個依據，其實地方上是非常期待，也希望這個案子趕快確定，我們可以先做其他的事情，讓我們地方知道，再讓地方來配合，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：兩位部長請回。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，這就是新增計畫。"],["邱委員鎮軍：新增的嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：對！一定要有預算才能執行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望這樣子啦！這也是賴總統選前的一個政見，我們一定是全力支持、一定全力支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以拜託委員支持，這個新增計畫才能夠如期去推動。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝院長。院長，我再請教一下，你有沒有覺得潘孟安秘書長是一位優秀的屏東縣長？"],["卓院長榮泰：優秀的什麼？"],["邱委員鎮軍：屏東縣長。"],["卓院長榮泰：他在縣長任期內評比很高，地方民眾對他的支持度也很高。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我也很佩服他啦！他把限制嚴格的農1劃在公有地，4萬公頃的優良私有農地劃在農2，還把應該劃為農5的都計內農地全部改劃到城鄉發展區，在我看來他非常勇於挑戰中央，而且最後還讓中央妥協，你們說地方政府作為規劃主體，屏東農地設置的爭議中，中央向地方妥協是符合國土規劃原則，這句話沒有錯吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：國土規劃是整體國家土地充分利用、資源利用的一個規劃。"],["邱委員鎮軍：既然權限在地方，還有縣市也還沒交，有的也還沒審過，其他縣市如果比照屏東這樣劃，您會支持嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這要地方政府、農業單位跟內政部都充分地協調出一個合理的狀況，請部長說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，現在地方政府在劃的農業發展區，不只是農1、農2，農1到農5的劃設區域，它是有其相關的規範跟指引，最主要是由原來的特農或一般農為基底去做轉成的，至於地方政府劃出來以後，很多東西是可以有調整的空間，我們會依據實際狀況跟縣政府當地的產業發展需求而做一個溝通。"],["邱委員鎮軍：您講的意思是每個縣市不同喔？"],["陳部長駿季：因為到目前為止，整個農地是用總量管制的概念，但是並沒有規定地方政府一定要劃多少，我們有一個劃設指引，劃設指引如果有一些調整的時候，我們可以跟地方政府一起努力來做一個最有效地調整，最主要是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以苗栗縣政府如果發現有問題、有爭議的時候，是不是可以來做一個調整？可以嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對！是可以經過溝通以後去做一個調整。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我憑良心講，因為苗栗縣五個水庫，影響了非常多農民的權益，農業影響非常大，再加上石虎保育又匡了很多土地，不好動啦！因為管制又更嚴了，現在再加上國土計畫法，我希望我們中央一定要多為我們苗栗的鄉親來考量，因為說真的，務農的人他們日子過得真的不是很好，當土地越來越沒有價值的時候，你要叫他們怎麼活下去？我希望我們中央能夠考量到這一點……"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會持續……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為苗栗比較特殊，我更希望苗栗有一種特別的規劃方式，這樣可以嗎？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，只要苗栗縣政府把相關的國土計畫法送上來，那麼我們內政部會秉持相關的原則來跟苗栗縣做討論，所有的各縣市基本上也都是這樣子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那我再請問，你們現在急著明年要實施嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們現在奉行政院的指示，我們會積極跟各縣市政府溝通，我們會依法去執行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得現在我們藍綠的委員，大家都非常重視這個問題，因為地方上確實聽到非常多的聲音，我希望我們行政院這邊能夠聽取民意，如果能夠把這個事情暫緩兩年，我們不是不執行，只是說暫緩兩年，讓大家有更多一點的時間來溝通，我覺得這才是好的啦！一個這麼重要的法案如果直接推動的時候，如果沒有配套、沒有做好，真的會引起民怨。"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，第一個，站在內政部的立場，我們當然要依法執行；第二個就是說，行政院已經有指示，我們會進行全面的跟地方溝通……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們立法院就已經給你們下台階了嘛！對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對，相關的溝通也包括跟大院這邊的溝通，大院這邊有什麼決定，我們會遵從，我們會積極跟地方上去協商討論……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我相信這個案子一定會過啦！就是說延緩兩年這個部分，我們已經給你台階下了，那你們趕快趁這兩年時間趕快去處理好不好？"],["董次長建宏：我們會積極努力去處理相關法令的修訂，包括子法，也跟委員報告，其實苗栗縣跟嘉義市也已經在媒體上告訴大家說他們會送國土計畫法進來。"],["陳部長駿季：我在這邊也跟委員補充說明，就是委員關心的，就是剛才講的石虎保育區之類的，農業部對於整個農業政策的推動跟協助，不會因為國土計畫的改變、如期或是延後而有所延宕，所以針對這個部分，像石虎保育區的話，我們也在規劃所謂的生態給付的部分，來表彰這些農民守護這片土地、守護這個生態的貢獻。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得政策推動現在一定要因地制宜啦，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：讓我們地方上能夠更加地和諧，這才是我們要的，因為老百姓真的是很可憐，你如果一個法令定下去之後，搞不好他就因為這樣子整個生計就受到影響，所以我們應該要從長計議，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，請回。院長，不好意思，我再問，我們之前有問到財劃法的部分，我們尊重行政院，展現了很大的善意嘛！在上個會期我們也有先暫緩一下，也希望我們行政院能夠提出政院版的財劃法修正案，目前您行政院這邊有沒有什麼新的做法嗎？有沒有新的計畫？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該了解財劃法本身是一個非常龐大的計算工程，財政部在8月份跟9月份分別跟地方政府繼續做很多次的溝通，我想像即使到目前為止也沒有辦法得出一個大家都能夠接受的方式出來，我會請財政部繼續來談這個事情，請財政部來說明一下好嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得不會沒有辦法啦！只要行政院願意撥一些空間出來，大家怎麼會不願意呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，這是水平分配的問題，請財政部說明。"],["邱委員鎮軍：照人口比例去分就好了嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我想財劃法的修正涉及到財政的資源重分配，對各級政府來說都是影響非常重大的，所以我們在做財劃法修正的時候，第一個，除了要照顧地方政府的需要，同時中央的財政也一定要維持一定的韌性，過往有5次，從88年到現在有5次送立法院審議，都沒有能夠修正通過，就是因為沒有共識，沒有共識主要是因為分配的機制大家都還有爭議……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那個時候是送立法院對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這一次我們會在分配機制上，我們認為要充分地討論，凝聚最大的共識。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你那時候是送立法院對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：5次都是送到立法院。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那這一次立法院如果通過了，你們遵不遵守？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們認為應該要審慎地規劃來推動……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你看那時候又說送立法院沒辦法解決，那這一次我們來幫你解決嘛！對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：如果是很貿然，為了要求快通過的話，事實上會造成更大的爭議，未來在公平分配上其實會影響更大，也跟委員報告，財劃法雖然沒有能夠修正……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們不能說……"],["莊部長翠雲：但是我們在對地方政府的財政挹注事實上是成長很多，尤其114年比113年，加上統籌加上一般補助款會增加到900億，是歷年來最高，已經達到七千多億……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不要講那個啦！我就覺得我苗栗沒有補到錢啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：什麼？"],["邱委員鎮軍：我苗栗就是沒有補到啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：有啊！苗栗也是有的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你那是一般建設，我們講難聽一點啦！如果錢給我們自己來規劃，苗栗縣因為負債，對不對？我們可以更好的規劃財政預算，現在完全靠中央給，我們要還到什麼時候？對不對？你們的錢只是建設，苗栗永遠在負債。"],["莊部長翠雲：債務的部分，因為苗栗過往債務事實上是有超限，目前來說，在地方政府努力下已經有降低很多了，那整個是財政紀律沒有維持……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個問題當然就是財劃法不公平，就是沒有劃出來，它當初的設計有問題，因為太多年沒有修改了，已經不符合我們現在的需求了。"],["莊部長翠雲：不會，我覺得這個部分在一般性的補助款，主計總處也有給予支持……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我再問啦！你不要講了，現在假如立法院通過之後，你們要怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得這個是一個高度共識的法案才可以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以不要再提釋憲……"],["卓院長榮泰：雖然過去幾年財劃法沒有做過任何的修訂，但是中央對地方的補助是逐年一再的增加，剛剛部長也講到了，明年度我們增加高達900億，一般的補助……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們中央國稅的部分成長超過一倍，中央總預算已經突破3兆了，可是地方稅收的成長率卻只有13%，而且法定支出越來越多，你懂我意思嗎？你這樣造成地方真的是非常的辛苦，你錢通通抓在中央，聽話的給你，不聽話的不給你……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，我們對一般補助、統籌分配款都有相當的挹注給地方，而且會逐年的增加，過去的數字我請部長再說明一下，像今年跟明年，我們明年又增加的相當大，今年實際上也增加了對地方的補助……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以院長您的意思是財劃法這一次你還是不準備動了，你們準備不調了？"],["卓院長榮泰：還在討論當中。"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得要有充分的討論，而且要有共識，這樣子通過才有意義，如果只是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你說的這些縣市你們找來溝通，你找誰來溝通？"],["莊部長翠雲：各地方政府以及部會都有來，我們在分配的指標上，在財政努力還有基本建設需求這部分都已經做過討論，而且有初步的成果，後續對於權重還有調整係數的部分必須都還要做精緻的規劃。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這樣講，當然現在立法院的那個版本到底適不適用，這個我不多講，但是我認為大家要出來談，你來談，大家才會有空間，不是說一定要照立法院的版本，你把你們的立場講出來，但是你一定要願意退，你懂我意思嗎？你不能說我就是這樣子，我就不跟你談。"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是中央退的問題，是中央、地方一起進步的問題……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你該分出來的還是要分出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起進步，就是中央會用更多的資源挹注在需要的地方縣市，我們絕對不是用人口比例來做唯一的標準，剛剛部長講了很多，有它各種的條件算出來，這是一個複雜的財政資源分配的計算工程。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我認為現在臺灣的政治氛圍，我希望大家能夠坐下來好好談，你們如果不談，這個案子還是會通過，那通過的時候，我們要請我們的大法官保姆來保護你們嗎？所以立法院通過的東西，你們都不承認，是不是你乾脆請大法官出來，把立法院講的都不算就好了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然希望立法、行政兩院的互動能夠非常的平實而且能夠依照各種法律來進行，院際分立這個問題要非常的遵守……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我真的是希望臺灣要更好，我真的希望臺灣更好、地方更好，我也不希望看到藍綠惡鬥，我們希望我們大家一起努力往前走，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們當然希望中央跟地方大家都一起好，所以在整個分配的機制上，我們必須要做更詳細跟細緻的規劃。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長請回。院長，我再請問一下，我們全面開放福島5縣市的食品，你們的理由是回歸科學，從2011年到現在，邊境檢驗輻射23.5萬多批，檢測結果均符合我國標準及日本標準，不合格為0，你有沒有告訴大家日本的檢驗批數是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在狀況是日本禁止的，我國就禁止，在周遭5縣原來有一些禁止的，所以我們現在用雙證件的方式來檢驗它……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我們是聽日本的、跟著日本的腳步走？日本說吃，就是可以吃；日本說不能吃，我們就不能吃，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，因為這還是符合國際的檢驗標準，日方它自己……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看了一下報告，從110年到112年6月，日本檢驗的批數總共是183萬4,681批，這期間驗了21萬1,370批，也就是說，我們的這個比例只有九分之一。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是在我們的邊境……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們驗了大概就12%，對嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是在我們的邊境檢驗，13年來我們在我們邊境檢驗的數量就是剛剛委員說的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你有沒有檢驗到輻射？沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：13年來邊境檢驗的23.5萬批次都符合我們現在的標準，這個也跟國際接軌。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再問一下，靜岡縣的抹茶，靜岡還不是福島五縣市，它今年2月到7月在百分之十幾的抽驗率中，就抽出兩批有輻射。"],["卓院長榮泰：除了日本禁止的之外，原來我們禁止的，我們還是會採取雙證件的方式，第一個它的產地；第二個它的輻射證明，會用雙證件來審查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得是這樣啦，人民的標準只有0跟1，沒有什麼一點點，你只能告訴他這個能不能吃，邱部長，你應該好好把這個把關好。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們第一個原則，我們優先食品安全。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們民眾食安的問題是最優先的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：優先食品安全，那是以科學的證據以及跟國際接軌，這個是共通的標準。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我曾經看到一篇報導，我們對日本很好，我們的毛豆，進口到他們的關稅是百分之六點多，其他國家是百分之四點多，他其實也沒有對我們很好。院長，所以我覺得該怎麼樣就怎麼樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：有關農產品，互相之間，這種進口關稅以及其他產品，我覺得我們有空間，就會繼續爭取，讓大家能夠在平等互惠的原則底下……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！我的意思是說，如果今天我們進的關稅比別人低，當然你們有一些去談了，但是不能夠犧牲我們民眾的健康。"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對不會，食品安全是第一優先的考量。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！我時間剩下40秒。最後，院長，我們碳費審議的作業，現在決定大概是從300塊開始，還是……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還有自主減量，還有一些優惠措施，明年會開始計算。"],["邱委員鎮軍：明年？已經出來了嗎？彭部長，講一下。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，10月7號有最後一次的審議委員會，預計那時優惠費率應該會出來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：您預計是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：目前我看到委員的討論，大概是100塊上下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，應該會先這樣走嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，有一個範圍。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你要循序漸進，不要讓我們的企業大家都沒辦法接受，大家都跑掉了怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們的確是這樣做的，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱委員，也謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽的是雲林縣斗南鎮里長聯誼會的朋友，是不是鎮長也有來？我們在此歡迎斗南鎮的里長聯誼會，還有鎮長。","接下來我們繼續質詢，請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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英文沒辦法跟聽說白話"},{"start":54.127,"end":79.332,"text":"那我第一個先請教治水預算在從莫拉克到凱米事實上莫拉克跟凱米都是在南台灣降下非常大的雨在部分的食雨量它的累積雨量凱米甚至於超越莫拉克可莫拉克颱風當時造成的損失人命的損失是非常嚴重那以我比較熟悉的臺南為例"},{"start":80.814,"end":99.419,"text":"海米跟莫拉克我們在莫拉克的時候臺南淹水區域根據水利署的資料是53000到56000公頃到了海米颱風的時候還是有淹水但是淹水區域在相同的雨量變700公頃53000到700其中包含我的選區從南關縣到東區三爺宮西二仁溪"},{"start":107.622,"end":122.848,"text":"這都是以前明星的淹水災區域所以感謝水利相關的治水人員從中央到地方在凱米的時候還好我們渡過了但治水永遠不能自滿我們也不敢說不會淹水這個事情"},{"start":123.628,"end":150.665,"text":"現在面對這麼強大的這個颱風要過來我看了一下預算在行政院明年的治水預算蓋估起來有551億從郭智輝部長的經濟部到相關的部會加總起來551億那在我選區的鹽水溪八甲溪這邊有17.5億這個是做提案的那另外在其他一些橋樑要提高"},{"start":151.798,"end":168.695,"text":"復合治水治理線的高度等等等等這551億多重要呢賴清德總統到台南的時候宣布我們用一個基準線來對照每一任總統我相信都很重視治水馬英九總統的時候喊出6年600億所以平均一年100億"},{"start":170.806,"end":199.267,"text":"馬英九總統銜接到蔡英文總統在相關的治水預算加起來大概10年2014年到2024年是1873億大概平均每一年有180億上下而我們明年度的治水預算就達到551億坦白講這一個投資的規模大概是創歷史的我第一個要請教卓院長或其他部會可以協助回答"},{"start":200.848,"end":218.002,"text":"提高這樣的額度你希望達成的目標是什麼報告委員這個額度的提高是因為在凱米颱風之後我們到各地走了一趟我們不能否認過去的治水是有它的績效的但是還有一些部分可能在最後還必須加強的某一些"},{"start":219.178,"end":219.698,"text":"五百五十五"},{"start":239.795,"end":240.355,"text":"臺北市以外的區域共用100億"},{"start":258.769,"end":258.929,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":281.288,"end":284.13,"text":"我們持續在努力我們希望能夠透過這樣的說明那讓朝野各黨團的委員先進能夠了解"},{"start":305.592,"end":323.331,"text":"所謂的預算整體性它必須一定是有它的相關關聯性的這個預算的完整性我們要維持預算可以三減動到委員會大家提案三減動黨團協商三減動大會還可以再三減動但現在卡在程序委員會是最差的狀態就不能討論"},{"start":324.252,"end":324.532,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":343.936,"end":346.218,"text":"國土管理署 等等 可能大家去思考說"},{"start":363.553,"end":364.253,"text":"有關AI的部分"},{"start":380.103,"end":403.19,"text":"我一直追蹤因為謝謝卓中泰院長你上任應該還沒有滿月你就到我們沙崙宣布那邊要設AI園區我們充滿期待那有關AI它其實不只是硬體的生產還有軟體的應用甚至它是一種態度我印象我聽過郭部長還是哪一位部長提過現在我們面臨的狀態有點像30年前電腦剛在用的時候"},{"start":406.482,"end":426.994,"text":"後來我們才發現會電腦跟不會電腦根本就是一個0跟1的差別而不是有多少的問題所以我們AI要發展它可能是國發會它可能是國科會它可能是經濟部它可能是院要統籌的我目前看一下我們年度的預算明年度的預算你們計劃在沙崙西區投入1.8億在沙崙西區要投入1.33億"},{"start":433.678,"end":458.021,"text":"另外根據我發文給國科會的回文 國科會回答說你們現在整個經費期程尚在研議當中需要試計劃審議 核定後確定所以我第一個先請教院長你在台灣現在發展AI所以我們常常知道我們可能是製造上的大國NVIDIA 夏丹 先進晶片"},{"start":458.786,"end":462.574,"text":"到底願景是什麼你對台灣在你行政院：或者我們國發會 國科會相關的部會"},{"start":465.492,"end":488.862,"text":"AI的願景你發展的願景是什麼我們除了繼續維持我們製造大國之外我們要進入軟體設計的時代甚至我們建立自己的大型語言模型所以我就是說主權AI應用時代這是我們下一個階段開始要進行去追求的一個目標這些願景他要轉換成政策跟預算行政院目前有沒有計畫"},{"start":491.482,"end":513.416,"text":"也許是跨部會編列的我們每一年投資在AI上面的預算準備編列多少包括我們的剛剛談到那個大型圓模型Tide的預算以及國科會在吳主委的安排之下我去到沙崙我們在114到118就會投資在沙崙超過360億的預算那整個科技預算114年到118年這個算是四年期的計畫要投資多少360億360億"},{"start":520.701,"end":545.574,"text":"這個跟原來的那個沙倫的醫療園區那個無關嗎獨立出來另外一個獨立的獨立的一個好那院長繼續那這個整個科技預算那更是超過1000億以上的科技預算在明年度要執行就跟委員所說的不管是治水跟科技明年都有很多的新增的部分新增的項目這個跟治水有點像他其實是跨部會統合的AI有產業嘛"},{"start":546.534,"end":575.142,"text":"那產業要進來像AMD、NVIDIA要投資臺南跟高雄這個就經濟部可能比較主俠簽造工業區的infrastructure基礎建設那產業的導向規劃可能國科會要做一個導引的方式裡面還要結合量子所以我剛才要確認一下就是說在未來4年期我們會投資將近400億就是360多億在AI的發展另外科技預算會投資1000億那這樣子投入了量能下"},{"start":576.394,"end":584.809,"text":"人才 能源供應 電力供應 土地 這三件事情有沒有盤點過能源照"},{"start":585.872,"end":613.69,"text":"經濟部台電的盤點我們現在到2030年之前加進所有AI高科技的快速的發展我們還是有餘裕能夠來供應這個電力的郭部長我們剛才院長講了一個願景願景變成實質的政策跟投資預算人才庫土地基礎建設跟能源供應能源這一塊你怎麼看報告委員我們在這個4年內準備培育AI的人員"},{"start":614.751,"end":615.031,"text":"電力的供應呢"},{"start":644.393,"end":657.009,"text":"以現有的盤點我們新開發的還不曉得比如說基隆的天然氣基礎站未確定我們不講以現有的能源供應發展AI上是不是充足以現有的我們擁有的電力的規劃跟我們所擁有的電力"},{"start":660.766,"end":661.447,"text":"律電的部分我們現在正在加緊我們雖然現在這個"},{"start":683.669,"end":712.591,"text":"有一點落後這個進度不過我們現在全力的在這個院的指導之下我們全力的發展時間的關係我移回來卓院長對於你心中的願景未來AI發展的重鎮在哪裡當然全台灣都要但重點在哪裡委員一定是關心臺南沙崙我們也一樣非常關心沙崙它會起一個帶頭起頭的大的作用你剛剛提到土地現在沙崙還有很多可以興建開發起來"},{"start":713.581,"end":735.706,"text":"他已經新建的建築物已經相當大相當多那還有人都可以開發我最後提醒你那我待會請顧立雄部長我三分鐘有問題要問他就是說在沙崙這一邊請注意一下我們的國土計畫法他有一些畫的那個區塊不符合我們的需求"},{"start":736.618,"end":756.796,"text":"所以本來5年檢討期 明年就要進行檢討那現在大家主張把國土計劃法先拉下來 重新盤點沙崙這一塊跟周邊 不管是中秋啦 武當大潭沙崙 五甲 貴南 這周邊的發展在國土計劃法裡面很多是化成農業發展區"},{"start":759.076,"end":775.647,"text":"所以這個部分可能要去注意一下我會提醒主委這邊我們也協調請市政府農業部跟國科會再來協調期待院長有空再來沙崙走一走你打開來都會有好消息那你先請回我請顧立雄部長我最後兩分鐘請教顧部長你邊走邊聽我提問"},{"start":779.782,"end":804.534,"text":"這兩天有一個蠻奇怪的消息,就是有關賴清德總統三軍統賴清德總統三軍統在將領晉升的時候怎麼傳出一個消息說他坦白講我大概20幾歲認識賴清德國大代表到現在我沒有看過他摔東西甚至我坦白講他就是要罵人也罵得蠻文雅的"},{"start":805.354,"end":806.775,"text":"因為這個總統是就這個在我們8月的這個將官訓免典禮之後他為了"},{"start":833.046,"end":835.507,"text":"以往晉升就結束了這一次是晉升掛接之後總統安排到官邸是不是總統府裡面安排查序"},{"start":853.868,"end":854.048,"text":"就是一個原桌子"},{"start":871.749,"end":883.017,"text":"總統進來的時候應該沒有喊總統進來請起立的一個動作所以總統進來之後確實有提醒一下說按照軍人禮節應該要注意一下就輕輕提醒這一句我想他一向講話態度滿嚴正的但是沒有任何"},{"start":898.643,"end":898.683,"text":"坦白講"},{"start":905.546,"end":906.847,"text":"總統需要立位 立位啊可是總統就是三軍統帥嘛"},{"start":954.917,"end":959.32,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝王委員謝謝左院長發言會現在在"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:19:49 - 10:35:50","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155037","gazette":{"lineno":633,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時20分）謝謝副院長，麻煩卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：院長早，辛苦了。我們雖然在這邊進行質詢，其實我剛才一直在聯絡看臺南的情況，因為這次這個颱風的路徑大概是近十年來比較少見的。"],["卓院長榮泰：非常詭異。"],["王委員定宇：它現在停在那裡，風雨前的寧靜，其實我們大家要戰戰兢兢，人永遠沒辦法跟老天爺拚。我第一個先請教治水預算，在從莫拉克到凱米，事實上莫拉克跟凱米都在南臺灣降下非常大的雨，在部分地區的時雨量、累積雨量，凱米甚至於超越莫拉克。莫拉克颱風當時造成的人命損失是非常嚴重的，以我比較熟悉的臺南為例，相較於凱米跟莫拉克，在莫拉克的時候，根據水利署的資料，臺南淹水區域是5萬3,000公頃到5萬6,000公頃；到了凱米颱風的時候，還是有淹水，但是淹水區域在相同的雨量變700公頃，從5萬3,000公頃到700公頃，其中包含我的選區，從南關線到東區、三爺宮溪、二仁溪、許縣溪、鹽水溪，這都是以前明星的淹水災區域。所以我感謝水利相關的治水人員，從中央到地方，在凱米的時候，還好我們度過了，但治水永遠不能自滿，我們也不敢說不會淹水這個事情。","現在面對這麼強大的颱風要過來，我看了一下預算，行政院明年的治水預算概估起來有551億，從郭智輝部長的經濟部到相關部會，加總起來有551億，在我選區的鹽水溪八甲橋這邊有17.5億，這個是做堤岸的，另外在其他一些橋梁要提高符合治水治理線的高度等等，這551億多重要啊！賴清德總統到臺南的時候宣布，我們用一個基準線來對照，我相信每一任總統都很重視治水，馬英九總統的時候喊出6年600億，所以平均1年100億，馬英九總統銜接到蔡英文總統，相關的治水預算加起來，2014年到2024年大概十年是1,873億，大概平均每一年有180億上下，而我們明年度的治水預算就達到551億，坦白講，這個投資的規模大概是創歷史的。","我第一個要請教卓院長，或其他部會可以協助回答，提高這樣的額度，你希望達成的目標是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個額度的提高是因為在凱米颱風之後，我們到各地走了一趟，我們不能否認過去的治水是有它的績效，但是還有一些部分可能在最後還必須加強某一些疏通、聯外的排水系統，或者是像滯洪池必須再做更多、更深的時候，我們必須再加一些系統性的治水。所以我們在凱米颱風之後加了115億，連前瞻加起來總數會有555億這樣的預算。"],["王委員定宇：到555？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，555億。"],["王委員定宇：不過就這個部分，因為治水其實滿科學的，它就是總合治理，不管是堤岸、抽水站、滯洪池、箱涵到區域排水，它是一個整體，以往臺北市以外的區域都共用100億，輪的啦！我們經濟部長是從屏東來的，林仔邊的堤岸可以一年做一小節，坦白講，當地人看了覺得說，你做一小節，水也是繞過來，還是淹進來，那就是預算不足。所以我滿期待這五百多億投資下去，有些區域也許蓋了抽水站，但滯洪池還沒齊備，像麻豆的大埤、小埤、埤頭，它就是沒有個滯洪池，把水蓄在那個地方。","我要請教，這551億有延續性的，也有新增的，目前總預算如果一直卡在程序委員會不去審查的話，這些該怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們持續在努力，我們希望能夠透過這樣的說明，讓朝野各黨團的委員先進能夠了解，所有的預算整體性一定是有它的相關關聯性的。這個預算的完整性，我們要維持，所以希望儘速付委。"],["王委員定宇：預算可以刪減凍，到委員會大家提案刪減凍，黨團協商刪減凍，大會還可以再刪減凍，但現在卡在程序委員會是最差的狀態，不能討論，所以只有比方延續性的人事費用，延續性的才能支用，新增的都不行，而這些新增項目有一些可能現在看我們總質詢的人不曉得它在哪裡，龜重溪在哪裡，誰知道？龜重溪大埔橋要架高起來。比如八甲從南北兩岸要銜接到86號東西向道路，現在那邊沒有堤岸，就得靠新增預算去處理，所以這個部分555億，我希望統合，因為這是跨部會的，從經濟部到內政部、國土管理署等等，可能大家要去思考現在還有哪些易淹水區域或者還不足的地方，讓民眾清楚知道是1年、兩年、3年，要達到什麼目標。","接下來我要請教有關AI的部分，可能經濟部長還要留在這裡。我一直追蹤，謝謝卓榮泰院長，你上任應該還沒有滿月，你就到我們沙崙宣布要設AI園區，我們充滿期待。有關AI，它其實不只是硬體的生產，還有軟體的應用，甚至於它是一種態度。印象中，我聽過郭部長還是哪一位部長提過，現在我們面臨的狀態，有點像30年前剛在用電腦的時候，後來我們才發現變成會電腦跟不會電腦，根本就是0跟1的差別，而不是有多少的問題，所以AI要發展，可能是國發會，可能是國科會，可能是經濟部，可能是院要統籌的。我目前看一下明年度的預算，你們以兩個計畫要在沙崙C區投入1.8億及1.33億。另外，根據我發文給國科會的回文，國科會回答你們現在整個經費期程尚在研議當中，需要視計畫審議及核定後確定。第一個先請教院長，臺灣現在發展AI，除了我們常常知道我們可能是製造上的大國、NVIDIA下單先進晶片，到底願景是什麼？臺灣在行政院或者國發會、國科會相關部會，對AI發展的願景是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：除了繼續維持我們作為製造大國之外，我們要進入軟體設計的時代，甚至建立自己的大型語言模型，所以我說主權AI應用時代，是我們下一個階段開始要進行追求的一個目標。"],["王委員定宇：這些願景要轉換成政策跟預算，行政院目前有沒有計畫？也許是跨部會編列的。我們每一年投資在AI上面的預算準備編列多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：包括我們剛剛談到大型語言模型TAIDE的預算，以及國科會在吳主委的安排之下，我去到沙崙，我們在114到118年就會在沙崙投入超過360億的預算，整個科技預算事實上是超過1,000億。"],["王委員定宇：114年到118年，這個算是4年期的計畫，要投資多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：360億。"],["王委員定宇：這個跟原來的沙崙醫療園區無關，是獨立出來的另外一個計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：獨立的。"],["王委員定宇：請院長繼續。"],["卓院長榮泰：更是有超過1,000億以上的科技預算在明年度要執行，如同剛剛委員所說的，不管是治水跟科技，明年都有很多新增的部分、新增的項目。"],["王委員定宇：這個跟治水有點像，它其實是跨部會統合的。AI有產業，產業要進來，像AMD、NVIDIA要投資臺南跟高雄，這個就經濟部可能比較主轄，牽涉到工業區的infrastructure、基礎建設。至於產業的導向規劃，可能國科會要做一個導引的方式，裡面還要結合量子，所以我剛才要確認一下，就是在未來4年期，我們會投資將近400億，就是三百六十多億在AI的發展，另外科技預算會投資1,000億。這樣投入的量能下，人才、能源供應、電力供應、土地這三件事情，有沒有盤點過？"],["卓院長榮泰：能源照經濟部、台電的盤點，到2030年之前，加進所有AI高科技的快速發展，我們還是有餘裕能夠來供應這些電力。"],["王委員定宇：郭部長，剛才院長講了一個願景，願景變成實質的政策跟投資預算，人才庫、土地、基礎建設跟能源供應，而能源這一塊，你怎麼看？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我們在這四年內準備培育AI人員、AI工程師大概是20萬人。"],["王委員定宇：AI工程師培養20萬人。"],["郭部長智輝：20萬人，其中有10萬人是我們準備從讓僑外生他們來臺灣攻讀AI的課程以後，進入到企業服務。"],["王委員定宇：等於跨國界的人才培養。"],["郭部長智輝：對，然後其中的10萬人是由我們自己的學子，讓他們來從事這樣的工作。"],["王委員定宇：那電力的供應呢？"],["郭部長智輝：電力的供應以目前來講……"],["王委員定宇：現有的盤點，新開發的還不曉得，比如說基隆的天然氣接收站未確定，我們不講，就以現有的能源供應，發展AI上是不是充足？"],["郭部長智輝：是，以現有我們擁有的電力規劃跟所擁有的電力，應該到2030年為止是可以滿足所有的需求。"],["王委員定宇：現有的是可以滿足？"],["郭部長智輝：現有的。"],["王委員定宇：因為AI要求的是RE100再生能源的供應，很多是要求這個，還不是傳統的核電、碳或者是燒油的，那個沒有算在RE100裡面。"],["郭部長智輝：綠電的部分，我們現在正在加緊，雖然現在有一點落後進度，不過我們現在在院的指導之下全力的發展綠能。"],["王委員定宇：時間的關係，我移回來卓院長。對於你心中的願景，未來AI發展的重鎮在哪裡？當然全臺灣都要，但重點在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員一定是關心臺南沙崙。"],["王委員定宇：我站在這裡，我當然要等答案。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也一樣非常關心，沙崙它會起一個帶頭、起頭大的作用，你剛剛提到土地，現在沙崙還有很多可以興建開發起來，它興建的建築物已經相當大、相當多，但還有很多可以開發，所以它絕對是一個帶頭的地方。"],["王委員定宇：我最後提醒你，我待會請顧立雄部長，3分鐘有問題要問他。就是說，在沙崙這一邊，請注意一下我們的國土計畫法，它有一些劃的區塊不符合我們的需求，所以本來的五年檢討期，明年就要進行檢討，現在大家主張把國土計畫法先拉下來，重新盤點沙崙這一塊跟周邊，不管是中洲、武東、大潭、沙崙、五甲、歸南、崙仔頂，這周邊的發展在國土計畫法裡面很多是劃成農業發展區，所以這個部分可能要去注意一下，我也提醒主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們也協調市政府……"],["卓院長榮泰：請市政府、農業部及國科會都來協調。"],["王委員定宇：好，我請顧部長。期待院長有空再來沙崙走一走。"],["卓院長榮泰：一定會。"],["王委員定宇：你每次來都有好消息，你先請回。","我請顧立雄部長，最後兩分多鐘請教顧部長，你邊走邊聽我提問，這兩天有一個蠻奇怪的消息，就是有關賴清德總統三軍統帥……院長可以先坐，沒關係。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒關係。"],["王委員定宇：賴清德總統三軍統帥在將領晉升的時候，怎麼傳出一個消息？坦白講，我大概二十幾歲認識賴清德國大代表到現在，我沒有看過他摔東西啦，甚至於坦白講，他就是要罵人也罵得蠻文雅的，會讓你很難過，但是還蠻文雅的。破口大罵，我還很少看到，唯一一次看到是潛艦在立法院被擋了六十幾次，他那一次真的是生氣了。這個到底是怎麼回事？對這個媒體報導這樣的內容及操作，你覺得它有什麼樣的目的？"],["顧部長立雄：因為總統是在我們8月的將官訓勉典禮之後，他為了要感謝國軍守護國家辛勞，也希望能夠有更多的互動，來聽一下將官們的意見，所以他說要安排一個茶敘，這個是多年來第一次舉辦。"],["王委員定宇：以往晉升就結束了。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["王委員定宇：這一次是晉升掛階之後，總統安排到官邸，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：總統府裡面……"],["王委員定宇：總統府裡面安排茶敘。"],["顧部長立雄：進行一個茶敘，因為這個流程會前，確實我們這邊沒有溝通清楚，那個時候安排當然是一個圓桌的平台，並不是總統還要先上台有一個致詞，它就是一個平台……"],["王委員定宇：就是一個圓桌子。"],["顧部長立雄：一個圓桌，大家先坐著。總統進來的時候應該沒有喊「總統進來，請起立」這樣子的一個動作，所以總統進來之後，確實有提醒一下說按照軍人禮節，應該要注意一下，就這樣子。"],["王委員定宇：就輕輕提醒這一句。"],["顧部長立雄：當然，他一向講話就是態度蠻嚴正的，但是也沒有任何辱罵或者是任何摔東西在地上，我想都沒有這樣一個情事。"],["王委員定宇：所以這樣子，坦白講，過程我聽起來也就是這樣子，這樣就過了，就繼續進行下面的……"],["顧部長立雄：對，就繼續，然後他就坐下來，因為這是一個很大的圓桌，他就繼續坐下來。"],["王委員定宇：那你認為這些坦白講有些片段、扭曲式的說法，會有什麼樣的影響？"],["顧部長立雄：最近我看很多人的評論，好像就一直覺得總統需要立威，可是總統就是三軍統帥，三軍統帥……"],["王委員定宇：三軍統帥不用立威了啦！"],["顧部長立雄：不用立威了，那我想針對相關的禮節有所提醒，對軍人的禮節有所提醒，這也是做為一個三軍統帥應該要做的事情。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝院長、謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，總統很難當面罵人，也很少用電話罵人。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員、謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是東吳大學政治系的同學，我們在此表達歡迎。There are some more students from foreign countries, welcome to our Legislative Yuan.","報告院會，現在休息10分鐘，休息之後，我們繼續進行質詢。現在休息。","休息（10時36分）","繼續開會（10時47分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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院長這個我們做的預算這個也是一個原因之一"},{"start":83.119,"end":93.101,"text":"0.95這個也是醫界跟全民這個最低的期待我剛剛看那個部長講說應該是沒有問題院長說有問題問我就為邱部長感到很擔心前陣子剛剛總統那邊剛剛發生一個事情現在院長這邊又這樣好像打臉的話我為一個可能這個這麼關心醫界又了解醫療體系的部長感到擔心"},{"start":112.523,"end":130.486,"text":"我們這個台灣的這個醫療是相當的有名這全世界也算是可受信任的沒問題吧部長我們醫療的人才醫療的科技發展可以說是世界級的"},{"start":131.169,"end":133.77,"text":"我上個會期請問您有關金門的事務 爺爺想邀請您到金門看看你知道金門已經恢復入客到金門來"},{"start":150.802,"end":155.61,"text":"非常好有彩線團到了不是只有彩線團全部都開放了就是福建省的居民幾月開始幾號開始你知道嗎"},{"start":164.227,"end":165.968,"text":"昨年的7月到今年的5月光光"},{"start":190.834,"end":218.874,"text":"光是以這個醫療的這個簽證來到金門的人數有多少人你知道嗎以就醫的大陸大陸地區的這個人民用小山通道金門來就醫啊不曉得陸委會有沒有這個數字至少有331件500多件這算是接近了那原因是什麼事實上我們金門醫療是缺乏的但是為什麼大陸人民還願意到金門來就醫你知道嗎 院長"},{"start":220.255,"end":234.86,"text":"相對比較一方面觀光一方面就醫但是我們金門醫療也不會比廈門進步阿為什麼他要到金門來就醫有我們的特色有我們的專科阿什麼特色好像是在生殖醫學方面就是"},{"start":237.261,"end":237.801,"text":"臺灣的醫療又是比較進步而且獲得信任的"},{"start":254.853,"end":276.786,"text":"建保典值是全民的這個醫療嘛這個醫療平權大家都應該照顧到所以應該要盡力幫醫界爭取這個不然我們的醫護人員實在是血汗醫護非常辛苦但是在我們有優勢的部分我們可以用自費的吸引全世界各地來的那因為金門的地理位置的關係當然大陸吸引人過來這個這個部分呢這個是應該是可以這個再加強的嘛對吧"},{"start":278.618,"end":278.778,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":299.052,"end":302.813,"text":"陸委會有什麼規劃目前有什麼想法陸委會沒有陸委會一直都很支持金門我就問院長"},{"start":321.799,"end":338.991,"text":"您是院長,一院之長,您的最高行政首長的想法最重要我想只要對金門老百姓有好處,那兼顧國家安全只要能夠復國利民的政策,我們對於金門我知道你都支持,我要請問我們卓院長,卓院長這個部分支持嗎?我認為這個,我們現在有個離島建設條例"},{"start":346.887,"end":360.361,"text":"委員提到了如果是醫療的部分是不是要請衛福部跟國發會來再進一步的研究看看如何在這個條例底下有沒有必要做什麼樣的調整幫助金門地區這一方面的醫療專區醫療產業的發展這是正向的嗎"},{"start":367.182,"end":367.322,"text":"善用臺灣的醫療這個優勢"},{"start":388.656,"end":410.204,"text":"我會請衛福部跟國發會來看看如何對金門地區的這個醫療產業能夠有幫忙的那在現行這個離島經濟條例底下如何來發展這個方向如果離島經濟條例有不足的地方我們應該來做適度的修改吧我一直覺得法令不足我們適度的鬆綁法例那是現在政府重要的工作"},{"start":410.964,"end":435.537,"text":"謝謝院長 謝謝您的承諾那我們來提一下另外一個就是有關醫療平權這個部分這個我想請問衛福部長 其他部長可以請回這個有一個衛福推了一個住院友善照護公聘制度就是住院整合照護示範計畫就是照護公聘這個制度您知道吧就4個病患集資每個人付1200元一天4800元可以一起照護衛福有這個計畫對吧"},{"start":439.457,"end":455.063,"text":"是的 這個計畫經過幾年的一個推行現在效果反應很好但是因為金門我們也非常希望有這樣的一個服務可是它是需要那個照護員可是在金門也請不到照護員所以我們一定要協助"},{"start":462.726,"end":469.129,"text":"金門醫院來擬聘人力的聘用方案所以你有沒有什麼具體的計畫這個有關這個醫療平權這個要住院整合照護計畫制度啊"},{"start":474.448,"end":493.746,"text":"我們在114年有特別要加強這個部分那招募人力的計畫因為你們有沒有相關的獎勵計畫讓有一些人願意到離島來從事這樣的工作我以前事實上也提過或者是當地人願意因為這個照護員的待遇是比較在這裡是比較好的然後所以願意轉做這個照護員的工作"},{"start":494.606,"end":512.533,"text":"我真的非常敬佩委員,過去對金門各種醫療、人民的照顧非常的周全那也關係到這個部分,這個真的是可以幫助病人所以我們一定會全力來推這個計畫我們希望明年就能夠讓金門上路這樣子所以你如果說招募到,招募到的人有可能是"},{"start":519.035,"end":519.676,"text":"明年一定會上路吧"},{"start":536.77,"end":559.517,"text":"我們想盡辦法讓他上路 照顧金門民眾那院長明天這兩天颱風那您知道現在金門機場還有很多人回不了臺灣嗎早上的訊息還有100多名的旅客還在排會當中 我想現在有沒有稍微疏散那這個"},{"start":561.298,"end":561.418,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":578.408,"end":578.508,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":594.052,"end":618.745,"text":"甚至曾經有一次﹐天氣起霧是﹐大學生要來台灣考試﹐那時候是推真﹐就是考試﹐幾百個高中生﹐台灣考大學﹐因為起霧沒有飛﹐完全沒有辦法到台灣來考試﹐一輩子就考這一次﹐這事情非常嚴重﹐常年在發生﹐後來那一次怎麼解決﹐江峰部長知道嗎﹐"},{"start":620.686,"end":630.504,"text":"這個應該是前年那時候是王國才當部長陳部長你知道這件事情嗎你知道嗎 你知道常年發生這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":631.484,"end":659.629,"text":"這個我大概有聽說就是起霧啦 那個什麼天氣像這種颱風天啦 年假啦 過年啦哇 這個實在是金門的心中一直沒有辦法解決的痛那 院長 您您知道這個金門 離島 三個離島 金馬棚離島到台灣島 這個這個之間 這個交通工具是什麼 您知道嗎除了飛機以外除了飛機 我們還有海運有海運 哪一個地方有海運馬祖馬祖有 還有呢"},{"start":660.506,"end":667.371,"text":"彭胡部長您知道嗎?彭胡跟馬祖有齁?有阿金門勒?金門目前是沒有"},{"start":668.871,"end":670.773,"text":"那難道到金門能會比到澎湖或是甚至比到馬祖少嗎?到馬祖觀光人沒有比到金門多欸"},{"start":695.416,"end":720.515,"text":"馬祖你們怎麼做朋友你們怎麼做部長朋友你們怎麼做馬祖你們怎麼做你們補助他們建船對不對還補助他們20年的營運的這個費用對不對讓這個船可以平常如果他自己營運他這樣營運不起來你讓馬祖跟朋友都這樣可以自由的就是給他一條船然後接著給他這個營運20年的補助費用讓這個船可以這樣正常的走像昨天"},{"start":721.716,"end":743.996,"text":"這幾天颱風吧其實我們金門的補助也是有但是是針對假期啦應該委員知道針對什麼例如說中秋節或一些連假那什麼如果有船運的需求的時候我們會跟縣政府來合作該補助中央會補助是 您說的是臨時的吧那時候今年就有啊 釣不到船啊那船跑去走澎湖啊他不願意來走金門啊"},{"start":745.177,"end":769.578,"text":"那是澎湖的船很快的嘛他要走澎湖他不要來走金馬上次考大學生那一次你們出面也不願意我還親自去拜託那個老闆說拜託你就幫我們走這一趟所以高中生才可以到台灣來考大學你們出面人家也不要幫我們還要自己再去再次請託拜託完以後我事後又拿了很大的一瓶高粱酒送他那我想請問這個不是解決的方法嗎"},{"start":770.968,"end":787.645,"text":"我們不是人質的社會 我們要制度化嘛 院長那這個金馬鵬來講 金馬鵬 馬祖跟鵬都有這樣的運輸船這不是只是說這個天氣阿或是這個年假的時候這個運輸需要阿其實這也對公關很有幫助阿"},{"start":788.246,"end":812.603,"text":"像比如說現在的這個離島這個機票事實上是對非居民來講是蠻高的來回大概要五千塊那這個事實上也會影響到現在很多人願意出國因為出國機票可能也沒那麼貴那也影響到金門地區的觀光發展啊所以你們是不是我們金門鄉村也有提出來啊我們需要一台那個台金輪啊你們可以給馬祖這個台馬輪可以給澎湖這個台澎輪為什麼不能給我們一條台金輪呢"},{"start":815.52,"end":817.783,"text":"那個不是今年才開始一直都有"},{"start":832.383,"end":834.024,"text":"備言船有遇到緊急事故﹖"},{"start":853.658,"end":870.373,"text":"彭胡不願意開過來,被人開口欺騙,他可以要他可以不要,他可以不賺這個錢彭胡的比較近,比較好賺,人家要賺彭胡的,我們理解那這個不是強制久安之道嗎?盡量跟業者溝通,其他方法就不行每一次都發生事情再來溝通"},{"start":871.621,"end":871.801,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":893.885,"end":920.618,"text":"那不能常常發生這樣的事情嘛所以長治久安者那像如果在馬祖在澎湖遇到重慶他們晚上開船明天早上到所以很多人就可以做他的行程規劃嘛今天如果是院長勒其實上次應該上次有一次王國才部長要去金門的時候還是林佳龍部長林佳龍部長對不對你也要去你也遇到大霧啊對不對你是不是跟我在那個宣傳機上也等很久連部長自己都沒有辦法坐飛機都無機可乘"},{"start":924.146,"end":939.079,"text":"第一個如果是天後不可抗力的那我們大概很難在短時間來做處理剛剛如果提的就是比方說是考試我覺得考試在金門地區如果能跟大家方便的方式我們應該來想"},{"start":940.14,"end":968.099,"text":"不需要那如果是你 請問你遇到那個考試那怎麼辦一年考試推薦呢 推薦是要到台灣各個大學去參加入學考試那一天還剛好不知道為什麼6月份還起大霧若是國家重要的考試 是啊能不能在清晨能夠有一個方便讓大家不需要這樣有這種風險的方式那怎麼做好你告訴我 如果像這種考試你怎麼做不是大型的國家考試不是國家考試 入學考考各個大學才到 入學考因為它設下每個學校可能單獨的 對對對對那就很難啦齁"},{"start":969.42,"end":995.589,"text":"那很難怎麼辦 他們一輩子就考這一次就不用考了嗎所以我說先從大型的國家考試是不是考慮金門如果可以這個已經有在做了 謝謝您國內經營會跟考試院設國家堂這個我已經知道那像比如說這種你也想做重慶你怎麼會遇到就剛好那時候天氣就起大霧那一天就是沒有辦法開所有的學生幾百個學生高中生都沒有辦法參加過兩天6月18、19的考試如果你的小孩子在那邊明天要參加考試人到不了台灣你要怎麼辦"},{"start":996.48,"end":1022.111,"text":"當然很著急啦除非是改時間除非是能夠讓這些學生們能夠改時間改時間 各個學校的面試怎麼改時間或者是以後我們可以用科技的方式來進行等一下 你說以後所以他到由北到南所有大學全部因為進門考生沒有辦法考的另外那些面試老師再花一個時間讓他們好沒關係 你如果願意做這樣承諾教育部有聽到"},{"start":1022.771,"end":1051.034,"text":"我是說我們可以想這個方式﹖或是用更科技﹖的確有可能會發生到前面就發生了所以說以後比如說國家考試那一天是有一個要考那一天還有一個是考好像是金融方面的考試吧好像也是定哪一天然後也是又天氣又起霧又沒辦法過來這種怎麼辦一樣就是說以後你只要願意下這個政策我也可以接受以後金門的居民如果遇到這種重大考試因為天氣沒有辦法過來另外幫他們排時間這個我接受了"},{"start":1051.574,"end":1062.631,"text":"這個很好 這個不能完全 我說如果重大的國家考試一輩子一次的高普考是不是中大考試或者一輩子一次的大學考試是不是入學考試是不是中大考試應該金門會很方便有考場我請問你嘛"},{"start":1066.215,"end":1083.034,"text":"這個學校的入學推薦面試我們當然很難去要求不是啊 這個院長 這個不是長久的這個就是年節啦 或者這種颱風時候的這種備援的方式委員覺得現在還沒有功能不夠我想請部長能夠加強我覺得長治久安啦 還是"},{"start":1084.415,"end":1084.455,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":1107.705,"end":1133.103,"text":"對機場的對金門的形象早上那些滯留在金門的這旅客現在趕快想辦法趕快等一下這個叫做治標我要考慮治本的事情那比如說留在金門就會被我們金門的形象造成很差的影響現在大部分我想在座每個人都會想說到金門是不是有可能從金門三日遊變成關島五日遊啊所以大家就會擔心嘛那去金門就會所以我不要讓我們金門有這樣的印象所以我覺得你們真的應該去思考"},{"start":1133.903,"end":1158.181,"text":"去弄一條抬金輪可以去研究嗎?不是不是我只還有幫助觀光產業的發展然後我們金門縣政府也已經在去年就來來來部長您聽一下去年就已經代會交通部航港局有提出來的也在去年10月5號有提報要爭取的我們想我們金門縣政府也願意說如果你們願意出一點錢我們也可以出一點錢"},{"start":1159.48,"end":1171.101,"text":"議員長"},{"start":1171.745,"end":1198.818,"text":"縣政府以及金門的居民如果認為這個是一個迫切需要的那我認為交通部應該跟他們去研議這個事情公務員已經來了 副長有看到嗎有 我跟縣政府一起來研議這件事是不是看看怎麼做 或者經費上大家怎麼來出嘛 對不對如果你們錢不夠你們先幫我們出我們現在沒錢不然我們可以多寄一些金門高粱酒過來換金門縣政府的財政狀況算不錯不好 現在越來越不好但是我們還是有酒"},{"start":1199.378,"end":1228.478,"text":"我們可以某一個酒窖就專門包給交通部這個就是你們慢慢取用沒有關係你們幫我們造一條船這樣可以嗎我們跟縣政府來研議你跟縣政府好好的研究一下那我想請教一下這個那個那個院長你有看到這個賴總統齁這個前幾天有一個影片總統叫大家說這個影片你有看到嗎瓊總親上火線錄節目這個你有看到這個影片嗎"},{"start":1229.451,"end":1236.197,"text":"總統在主持總統府全社會防衛任性的這個會議當中會有一些專家學者的建議等等讓我們也認為這不一定是戰爭我們就很多我想請教他在這個上面那個臥槽"},{"start":1255.094,"end":1260.752,"text":"沒錯嘛 你知道嗎 這個是在幫臥草錄製的 你知道嗎臥草 上面右上方有臥草兩個字有沒有"},{"start":1262.501,"end":1286.923,"text":"臥槽有沒有他這個不是在總統府的官方網站欸他是在一個當然總統府我後來去查證了賴清德總統喔他有在他的臉書大家如果沒看到去他的臉書看一下臉書有後來我還確認這個不是假訊息他在這個臥槽幫這個臥槽這個什麼單位我不知道是什麼單位臥槽您知道這個組織嗎您知道這個東西嗎是臥槽臥槽弄的"},{"start":1287.723,"end":1294.794,"text":"這是一個網路的媒體公司把影片放下來第一個這有幾個問題啊我們先討論內容等一下討論第一個他幫一個網路的媒體公司錄影片那是他抓他臉書上的影片下來"},{"start":1302.805,"end":1303.586,"text":"政板是沒有臥槽的"},{"start":1335.908,"end":1346.777,"text":"總統要傳達的是一個我們在大型的災難之後全民要做一些對自己以及對周遭環境所以說的可能是天災比如說颱風啊 地震啊 是不是這是你幫總統詮釋的還是他的想法"},{"start":1352.611,"end":1378.416,"text":"全社會防衛韌性就是這個意思可是這個很奇怪喔國家防災日是在前一天他並不是在國家防災日放出這個影片耶9月都是國家防災月好那您知道他後面說了什麼我也是其實我剛開始也是跟你一樣的想法說這個是不是地震啊天災啊颱風的時候總統講的結果後來最後您知道他最後你有看他影片看他最後嗎我有整個看完看了好多遍你知道他內容看到最後嗎"},{"start":1379.758,"end":1380.898,"text":"報告我最近經常到花蓮去那這樣類似的話我也常講"},{"start":1406.237,"end":1408.179,"text":"總統錄這個不是說是因為戰爭 可能戰爭 這個很重要您公開講清楚 不要讓民氣荒涼 這個我也可以接受 您說吧"},{"start":1429.218,"end":1448.072,"text":"全社會防衛這個是非常多面向的我們可能遇到天災地變可能遇到一些我們想像不到的不法的事情但是都必須建立全民有這種防衛的心情所以如果發生像今天颱風哪一天地震的時候這個有需要民防隊出動嗎"},{"start":1451.639,"end":1467.948,"text":"昨天我在在害應變中心的時候我們甚至要拜託國軍弟兄國軍弟兄沒問題國軍常常不管是作戰救災都幫忙那地震這個民防隊也要出動是不是我知道一下你們怎麼做了"},{"start":1469.628,"end":1495.768,"text":"我現在需要必須儲備相關的人力啊這養兵就在千日啊也許永遠用不到你現在都又在說兵嘛我說的就是說按照你剛剛的前提錄這個影片就是只是擔心這種災害的時候颱風啊地震的時候那當然當然我是也很願意接受這個說法可是如果不是的話如果可能是因應可能的戰爭的話這是很多人看到的"},{"start":1496.368,"end":1496.528,"text":"民心惶惶"},{"start":1511.953,"end":1537.665,"text":"雖然現在中國的軍機經常的越過我們臨接的部分但是我們對台灣的安全現在跟和平還是有相當的信心的有信心是好事但是備戰也是要做吧總統也是要說要備戰嘛所以你們也發布這個全民國防手冊啦你有看過全民國防手冊嗎"},{"start":1538.493,"end":1544.457,"text":"行政院長如果現在我們在質詢的過程當中突然中共就打過來一個砲彈就掉下來我們現在在立法院我們要躲在哪裡"},{"start":1556.254,"end":1581.911,"text":"我們可能就必須要國家﹖我們最近的這個﹖掩體在哪裡在哪裡委員就指出一個非常重要﹖我們最近的討論的事情比如說現場的人到底要所在哪個地方有一項﹖我們除了說地震要他趴下之外﹖如果更大的災難發生的時候﹖到底每一個人﹖在當下要知道我要去哪裡就是要建立這樣的防衛的心情這個全民國家手冊﹖各個縣市都有嗎"},{"start":1583.757,"end":1609.506,"text":"有那個空間 有沒有各個縣市 有沒有所有你既然要做嘛 要教育民眾嘛 全民國防手冊 各個縣市都有嗎 院長 部長跟委員報告 全民國防手冊裡面呢 它就有那個你可以點進去消防一點通裡面不是 地方都要有 各個縣市的地方都要有應變手冊 比如說我在台北 我在金門站你知道有各個縣市都有 沒有嘛 您知道有多少個縣市有嗎"},{"start":1610.526,"end":1636.992,"text":"您說是防空避難設備還是就是國防應變手冊因為各地會有各地的不要躲在哪裡要在哪裡分配什麼工作我講例子給您聽國防部頒布一個全民國防手冊之後各縣市政府會依照他轄區的特性會來調修那個手冊有多少縣市調修出來了據我的瞭解應該各縣市都有調整只有17個縣市有"},{"start":1638.817,"end":1653.213,"text":"你可能應該要再去追蹤瞭解一下我不會針對您啦因為謝謝國防部我跟你講國防部也是幫金門很多忙啦在飛機沒有飛的時候軍機也幫忙飛了很多我們需要後送的時候都是國防部在幫我們我們平時就好像暫時了"},{"start":1656.877,"end":1675.357,"text":"所以如果總統有這樣的決心有這樣的打算第一個要讓全民知道不要讓民心惶惶第二個我覺得40萬這個民力這樣夠嗎應該也是不夠吧跟委員報告這個是根據民防法它相關的規定來做這個民力的這個建築訓練"},{"start":1679.942,"end":1693.366,"text":"這個他範圍是很大包括要協助也搶救重大的災害協助地方治安等等事情很多遇到什麼事情40萬夠嗎"},{"start":1695.899,"end":1697.401,"text":"我們認為討論出來的這個數字就是基本的需求所以是不夠的嘛"},{"start":1710.84,"end":1733.112,"text":"所以如果總統真的要全面備戰就不尋求不要打仗就是看有沒有什麼和平的方法那他希望但他不尋求因為他說這個沒有我們就全民一起來備戰那也要讓百姓知道這個第一個當然這是他的選擇我們的總統我們的元首我想這個主要是強化韌性對韌性那其實40萬也是不夠的"},{"start":1736.075,"end":1752.92,"text":"我建議是不是就是開始討論阿實實像以前金門做的這樣子阿全民皆兵每個人都參加組成自衛隊民防自衛隊不分男女16歲到這個50歲沒有這樣的環境喔那你就是沒有打仗的環境阿所以你沒有打仗的環境嘛因為你們沒有這樣的決心嘛如果要打仗就不會分男或是女"},{"start":1761.283,"end":1779.034,"text":"跟委員報告民兵跟民力是不一樣的不一樣你覺得現在戰爭不會打到你家門口就對了跟委員報告我們這個民力最主要是面對像今天颱風或者是所以不是面對我們是鼓勵協助不是面對戰爭我們希望透過這樣的方式來協助我只要這句話不是面對戰爭我們的民防法有規定"},{"start":1784.998,"end":1792.186,"text":"那這個民防法的規定裡面 要包括民間的自救能力 共同防衛人民的生命財產這個我會再繼續跟你們討論 因為我只剩下30秒 我要問一個問題 院長你站到了嗎你站到了嗎你站不到了嗎你聽不懂金門話喔"},{"start":1806.909,"end":1824.504,"text":"我講的是照文化報告說我這個金門話是台灣台語耶金門腔耶那我還要學習還要學習所以我這個就不是台語嘛你聽不懂台語喔我這個是金門話所以你聽不懂嘛對不對聽不懂你聽不懂嘛那為什麼金文化被文化部列為是什麼台灣台語這個就不是"},{"start":1838.743,"end":1845.061,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員謝謝卓院長下一位請王帝女委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:48:55 - 10:19:42","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155036","gazette":{"lineno":300,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（9時48分）主席，我們請院長跟衛福部部長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢還有衛福部部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長好。部長，我為你感到很擔心啦，我看您對醫界這麼關心、了解，剛剛我看到楊瓊瓔委員有講到健保點值，我們去年做決議說6月份要達到0.95嘛，剛剛院長您是說不可能？"],["卓院長榮泰：這當然是我們的目標啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：可不可能？目標要做到，可不可能？"],["卓院長榮泰：目標要大家共同努力。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是共同努力，剛剛部長都已經說一定要做到啦！6月份……去年……我剛剛有看到我的簽名也在上面，6月份要達到嘛，沒問題吧，部長。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為行政院也很盡力在幫忙，所以醫界非常感動，醫界也會全力以赴，在分級醫療、在各種醫療的制度來努力，來配合……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，可不可能達到0.95？"],["邱部長泰源：全體配合完成目標。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有問題啦？今年6月健保點值要達到0.95啊！預算就編進來吧！院長，我們退回預算，這個也是原因之一嘛！0.95也是醫界跟全民最低的期待。"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們整個總額健保多了七百多億，所以應該是可以完成。"],["陳委員玉珍：我剛剛看部長講應該是沒有問題，但院長說有問題，我就為邱部長感到很擔心，前一陣子總統那邊剛剛發生一個事情，現在院長這邊又這樣好像打臉的話，我為一個可能這麼關心醫界、又了解醫療體系的部長感到擔心啦！","我們臺灣的醫療是相當的有名，在全世界也算是可受信任的，沒問題嘛，部長？"],["邱部長泰源：我們醫療的人才、醫療的科技發展可以說是世界級的。"],["陳委員玉珍：那很好！我繼續問院長就好了，來，院長，我上個會期詢問你一些有關金門的事務嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：也想邀請您到金門看看，您知道金門已經恢復陸客到金門來，您知道這件事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常好，有踩線團到了。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是踩線團而已。"],["卓院長榮泰：非常好！非常好！"],["陳委員玉珍：不是只有踩線團。"],["卓院長榮泰：至少踩線團到了。"],["陳委員玉珍：全部都開放了。"],["卓院長榮泰：很好，非常好。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是大陸福建省的居民，幾月開始、幾號開始？你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：幾號開始我真的不知道……"],["陳委員玉珍：喔，你沒有關心喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道有這個訊息。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是兩岸在這個比較冰凍的時候有一個突破，是9月27號開始自由行、團客都可以過來。在這個同時，我覺得除了遊客過來以外，我們應該善用我們的優勢，我們的優勢您知道嗎？院長，您知道去年的7月到今年的5月，光是以醫療簽證來到金門的人數有多少人，你知道嗎？大陸地區人民用小三通到金門來就醫的。"],["卓院長榮泰：不曉得陸委會有沒有這個數字。"],["邱部長泰源：至少有331件。"],["陳委員玉珍：有五百多件，這算是接近了。原因是什麼？事實上，我們金門醫療是缺乏的，但是為什麼大陸人民還願意到金門來就醫，您知道嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：相對比較，一方面觀光，一方面就醫。"],["邱主任委員垂正：生殖醫療。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是我們金門醫療也不會比廈門進步啊！為什麼還要到金門來就醫？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為有我們的特色。"],["陳委員玉珍：哪一個特色呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：有我們的專科。"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼特色？"],["卓院長榮泰：好像是在生技，生殖醫學。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，生殖醫學方面嘛！就是不孕症的部分。所以我就在說，我們國內的醫療體系除了健保以外，有關做人的生殖醫學是自費的，就是他們自己要花錢，而我們臺灣的醫療又是比較進步，而且獲得信任，所以我們應該要發揮我們這方面的優勢。我們剛剛提到健保點值是全民的醫療，醫療平權，大家都應該照顧到。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以應該要盡力幫醫界爭取這個，不然我們的醫護人員實在是血汗醫護，非常辛苦！但是在我們有優勢的部分，我們可以用自費的吸引全世界各地過來，因為金門地理位置的關係，當然吸引大陸的人過來這個部分應該是可以再加強的嘛！對吧？院長，沒錯嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們應該善用這個優勢嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：用這個優勢展現，雖然大陸的醫療也進步，但是至少我們的醫療是相對更受信任，所以相關醫療法令如果涉及兩岸的部分，是不是請院長這邊跟陸委會，還有衛福部說一下，在金門做一個比如說醫療專區這類的，利用我們臺灣的醫療優勢，因為金門的區位，讓金門可以吸引大陸人過來這邊做相關的自費醫療行為，這個院長你應該是鼓勵的吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：陸委會有什麼規劃嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：我是請問院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：看陸委會有沒有什麼規劃，目前有什麼想法？"],["陳委員玉珍：陸委會沒有啊！陸委會一直都很支持金門啊！我就問院長，院長，您是院長，一院之長，最高行政首長的想法最重要！"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，我想只要對金門老百姓有好處，兼顧國家安全，只要能夠福國利民的政策，我們對於金門、對於馬祖都全力以赴。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道你都支持啦！我要請問我們卓院長，卓院長，這個部分支持嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在有一個離島建設條例。"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員所提到的，如果是醫療的部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，自費的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是要請衛福部跟國發會再進一步的研究，看看如何在這個條例底下，我們有沒有必要做什麼樣的調整，這個政策來配合……"],["陳委員玉珍：幫助金門地區這方面的醫療專區、醫療產業的發展，這是正向的嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：除了產業發展之外，我們整個的後勤可不可以接得上來……"],["陳委員玉珍：當然！當然！如果你有政策下去的話，我想很多產業就會往那邊去發展，對我們金門的醫療整體來講也是有幫助的，所以希望院長可以大力支持，這個沒問題吧？善用臺灣的醫療優勢，然後金門的區位嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請衛福部跟國發會來看看，如何對金門地區的醫療產業能夠有幫忙，在現行離島建設條例底下如何來發展，這個方向……"],["陳委員玉珍：如果離島建設條例有不足的地方，我們應該來做適度的修改吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我一直覺得法令不足，我們可以適度的鬆綁法令，那是現在政府重要的工作。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝院長的承諾。","另外就是有關醫療平權這個部分，這個我想請問衛福部長，其他部長可以請回。衛福部推了一個住院友善照護共聘制度，就是住院整合照護試辦計畫，就是照護共聘制度，你知道吧？就是四個病患集資，每個人付1,200元，一天4,800元可以一起照護，衛福部有這個計畫，對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，這個計畫經過幾年的推行，現在大家反應很好。"],["陳委員玉珍：離島有哪一個縣市……"],["邱部長泰源：我們也非常希望金門有這樣一個服務，這個計畫需要照護員，可是在金門請不到照護員。"],["陳委員玉珍：請不到照護員，對不對？你知道原因嘛，我就是要問，你知道是請不到照護員，那你們有沒有告訴我們要怎麼做啊？"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們一定要協助金門醫院來擬訂人力的聘用方案。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，所以你有沒有什麼具體的計畫？有關醫療平權的這個住院整合照護計畫制度。"],["邱部長泰源：我們在114年有特別要加強這部分招募人力的計畫，希望……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們有沒有相關的獎勵計畫，讓有一些人願意到離島來從事這樣的工作？我以前事實上也提過，或者是當地人願意因為照護員的待遇在這裡是比較好的，所以願意轉做照護員的工作？事實上，人力是還是有，當地不是沒有人啦。"],["邱部長泰源：我真的非常敬佩委員過去對金門各種醫療、對人民的照顧非常的周全，那也關係到這個部分，這個真的是也可以幫助病人，所以我們一定會全力來推展這個計畫。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，那這個部分您是不是應該多花一點心力？"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望明年就能夠讓金門上路。"],["陳委員玉珍：可以喔？明年是114年，114年就要上路。"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果說招不到人，招不到人有可能是……"],["邱部長泰源：單單部立醫院就已經有16家在做，已經做了1,053床。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛，那金門到現在沒有嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們對金門醫院一定要全力來幫忙。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，要全力幫忙，那可能需要一些獎勵或一些離島地區特別的方法。"],["邱部長泰源：我們來研議。"],["陳委員玉珍：你要去想一下，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個明年要上路，明年一定會上路嗎？沒問題喔？"],["邱部長泰源：我們想盡辦法讓它上路。"],["陳委員玉珍：一定要，好，那我們期待。"],["邱部長泰源：照顧金門民眾。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝部長，你請回。","院長，這兩天颱風嘛，您知道現在金門機場還有很多人回不了臺灣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我早上得到的訊息是還有一百多名的旅客還在排位當中，不曉得現在有沒有稍微疏散。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個其實不是只有颱風天，對金門人來講，這個不是只有颱風，起霧啦、年節啦，三不五時都會發生，下去又10月10號了，又是連假啦，都一直發生這樣的情形，金門機場永遠有好多人回不了家，大部分有幾個情形，一個是住在臺灣島的人，第二個是我們當地的居民，當地居民不是回不了家，比如昨天就有好多民眾跟我陳情，要到臺灣來開刀啦、化療啦這一類的，都沒有辦法，甚至曾經有一次起霧，是要來臺灣考試，那時候是推甄，幾百個高中生要到臺灣考大學，因為起霧沒有飛，完全沒有辦法到臺灣來考試，可是一輩子就考這一次，這個事情非常嚴重，但長年在發生，後來那一次怎麼解決，交通部長知道嗎？這個事情應該是前年，那時候是王國材當部長，陳部長，你知道這件事情嗎？當時怎麼解決？"],["陳部長世凱：我不曉得當時怎麼解決。"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道長年發生這樣的事情嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我大概有聽說。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是起霧啦，像這種颱風天啦。"],["陳部長世凱：都是因為天候影響。"],["陳委員玉珍：連假啦、過年啦，這個實在是金門人心中一直沒有辦法解決的痛。院長，您知道金馬澎三個離島到臺灣島之間的交通工具是什麼，您知道嗎？除了飛機以外。"],["卓院長榮泰：除了飛機以外，我們還有海運。"],["陳委員玉珍：有海運，哪一個地方有海運？"],["卓院長榮泰：馬祖。"],["陳委員玉珍：馬祖有，還有呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：澎湖……"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，您知道嗎？澎湖跟馬祖有喔！"],["陳部長世凱：有，對。"],["陳委員玉珍：那金門哩？"],["陳部長世凱：金門目前是沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：幾個因素，第一個，我們空運的運量目前看起來還可以。"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼可以？你沒有天天看到新聞在報導，像這種天氣怎麼辦？"],["陳部長世凱：第二其實是這樣，因為船運要經營不太容易，如果它有商業價值，就是會賺錢，當然一定營運得起來，目前可能大家評估海運……"],["陳委員玉珍：那難道到金門的人會比到澎湖，或是甚至比到馬祖少嗎？到馬祖的觀光客，好像沒有比到金門多耶！馬祖你們怎麼做、澎湖你們怎麼做？"],["陳部長世凱：是啊！新台馬輪……"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，澎湖你們怎麼做、馬祖你們怎麼做？"],["陳部長世凱：都是有船沒有錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們補助他們建船，對不對？然後還補助他們20年的營運費用，對不對？讓這個船可以……平常如果它自己營運，它當然營運不起來，你讓馬祖跟澎湖都這樣可以自由地……，就是給它一條船，接著給它營運20年的補助費用啊！讓這個船可以這樣正常地走。像這幾天颱風……"],["陳部長世凱：其實我們金門的補助也是有，但是是針對假期，應該委員知道……"],["陳委員玉珍：針對什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：例如中秋節或者一些連假……"],["陳委員玉珍：的什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：如果有船運需求的時候，我們會跟縣政府合作，該補助中央會補助。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，你說的是臨時的嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，臨時的。"],["陳委員玉珍：那時候……今年就有，調不到船啊！那個船跑去走澎湖啊！它不願意來走金門！那是澎湖的船。很快的嘛！它要走澎湖，它不要來走金門。上次考大學生那一次，你們出面也不願意，我還去親自去拜託那個老闆說：拜託，你就幫我們走這一趟。所以高中生可以到臺灣來考大學。你們出面人家也不要幫，我們還要自己再次請託、再……拜託完以後，我事後又拿了很大的一瓶高粱酒去送他。我想請問，這個不是解決的方法嘛！對不對？我們不是人治的社會，我們要制度化嘛！","院長，金馬澎來講，馬祖跟澎湖都有這樣的運輸船，不只是天氣或者連假時的運輸需要，其實這對觀光也很有幫助。比如現在離島的機票，對非居民來講是蠻高的，來回大概要5,000塊，事實上也會影響到，現在很多人願意出國，因為出國的機票沒那麼貴，那也影響到金門地區的觀光發展。金門縣政府也有提出來我們需要一條台金輪，你們可以給馬祖台馬輪、可以給澎湖台澎輪，為什麼不能給我們一條台金輪？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們覺得離島都是一體的。"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有對的政策，那麼離島跟臺灣也都是同一國家。"],["陳委員玉珍：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也會同樣重視。是不是在113年開始，我們就有一些備援船在需要的時候……"],["陳委員玉珍：那個不是今年才開始，一直都有。"],["卓院長榮泰：一直都有，對，問題是……"],["陳委員玉珍：一直都有。問題是……"],["卓院長榮泰：備援船我們來做一些制度上的加強。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長，我讓您知道一下，部長不知道瞭不瞭解，我還真的想請教部長，您知道嗎？備援船有沒有發揮作用，像今年……"],["陳部長世凱：備援船是有遇到緊急事故，或者是過年或……連假的時候……"],["陳委員玉珍：今年要備援的時候，他說他的船是在澎湖，不願意開過來。備援是open的、開口契約，他可以要、他可以不要嘛！他可以不賺這個錢。澎湖比較近、比較好賺，人家要賺澎湖的啊！我們理解，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：我會儘量協助……"],["陳委員玉珍：這不是長治久安之道。"],["陳部長世凱：我會儘量跟業者溝通，請他幫忙。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，就不行每一次都發生事情再來溝通嘛！那等你溝通，溝通他又不願意的時候，我們要出面又去溝通，等到他願意的時候，有時候天氣又變化、又開不了。像以今天來講，明天颱風，昨天一百多個人滯留在金門機場，這些大部分事實上除了要來這邊就醫的，我們金門鄉親很多都是臺灣的人、臺灣鄉親啊！臺灣島的人啊！他們是要回家，回不了家啊！不能常常發生這樣的事情嘛！所以長治久安之道，如果在馬祖、在澎湖遇到這種事情，他們晚上開船，明天早上到，所以很多人就可以做他的行程規劃。","今天如果是院長哩？應該是上次，有一次王國材部長要去金門的時候，還是林佳龍部長？林佳龍部長，對不對？你也要去，你也遇到大霧，對不對？你是不是跟我在松山機場也等很久？連部長自己都沒有辦法坐飛機，都無機可趁。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，報告有三……"],["陳委員玉珍：那要怎麼解決？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，如果是天候不可抗力的，那我們大概很難在短時間來做處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是。對，所以我們做長期規劃。"],["卓院長榮泰：那你剛剛提的，比方考試，我覺得碰到考試，在金門地區，如果能讓大家方便的方式，我們應該來想，不需要……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那如果是你，請問你遇到考試那怎麼辦？一年考一次，推甄喔！推甄是要到臺灣各個大學去參加入學考試，那一天還剛好不知道為什麼6月份還起大霧。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是國家重要的考試……"],["陳委員玉珍：是啊！大學考試。"],["卓院長榮泰：是能不能在金門能夠有一個方便，讓大家不需要這樣有這種風險的方式……"],["陳委員玉珍：那怎麼做？你告訴我，如果像這種考試，你怎麼做？"],["卓院長榮泰：大型的國家考試是不是……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是國家考試，是入學考，考各個大學，臺大……"],["卓院長榮泰：入學考因為現在每個學校可能單獨……"],["陳委員玉珍：對、對、對！"],["卓院長榮泰：那就很難啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：很難要怎麼辦？他們一輩子就考這一次，那就不用考了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說先從大型的國家考試，是不是考慮金門如果可以……"],["陳委員玉珍：這個已經有在做了，謝謝您，我已經跟考試院建議在金門設置國家考場，這個我知道。但是像這種入學考試，你也想這種事情怎麼會遇到，問題是那個時候剛好就起大霧，那一天就是沒有辦法開，所有的學生、幾百個學生、高中生都沒有辦法參加兩天6月18、19日的考試，如果你的小孩子在那邊，明天要參加考試，人到不了臺灣，你要怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然很著急啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：那怎麼辦呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：除非是改時間或者……"],["陳委員玉珍：你是院長，你可以解決問題，不是只能著急而已。你告訴我怎麼做！"],["卓院長榮泰：除非是能夠讓這些學生們改時間……"],["陳委員玉珍：改時間？各個學校的面試怎麼改時間？"],["卓院長榮泰：或者是以後我們可以用科技的方式來進行……"],["陳委員玉珍：等一下，你說以後？所以由北到南，所有大學全部因為金門考生沒有辦法到考，另外再由那些面試老師再花一個時間讓他們……","好，沒關係，你如果願意做這樣的承諾，教育部有聽到喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說我們可以想這個方式，或是用更科技……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是、不是，的確有可能會發生喔，前年就發生了。"],["卓院長榮泰：有可能會發生，對。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以以後比如說國家考試，之前還有一個是金融方面的考試，好像是訂哪一天，然後也是天氣起霧，沒辦法過來，這種怎麼辦？一樣就是……","以後，好，你只要願意下這個政策，我也可以接受，以後金門的居民如果遇到這種重大考試，因為天氣沒有辦法過來，就另外幫他們排時間，這個我接受，這個很好！這個非常好！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個不能完全，我是說如果重大的國家考試，我們可以這麼做。"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼叫重大考試，一輩子一次的高普考是不是重大考試？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：或者一輩子一次的大學入學考試是不是重大考試？"],["卓院長榮泰：高普考金門方便的話，應該會有考場啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：我是舉例啦！我請問你嘛，像各個學校的入學推甄、面試……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是單一學校的考試？我們當然很難去要求啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：不是啊，院長，這個不是長久……"],["卓院長榮泰：第三個就是年節或是這種颱風時的備援方式，委員覺得現在功能還不夠，我想請部長能夠加強。"],["陳部長世凱：我們可以再加強。"],["陳委員玉珍：我覺得要長治久安，之前我也一直在思考這個問題，我們金門飛機班次也很多……"],["陳部長世凱：現在一週有280班。"],["陳委員玉珍：是、是，非常多。事實上……"],["陳部長世凱：非常多。"],["陳委員玉珍：每一天有快100班啦，80班、100班，但就是因為這麼多，所以只要天氣不好，影響就非常大，整個機場永遠有人在抗議，然後每個人都會叫我們出面去解決。對金門的形象……"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長針對早上那些滯留在金門的旅客，現在趕快想辦法……"],["陳部長世凱：我們會用最快的速度、方法來協助。"],["陳委員玉珍：等一下，這個叫做治標，我要考慮的是治本的事情。比如說，一旦有人滯留，就會對我們金門的形象造成很大的影響，現在大部分的人、我想在座每個人都會想，到金門是不是有可能從金門三日遊變成關島五日遊。因為大家去金門就會擔心，所以我不要讓人家對我們金門有這樣的印象。因此我覺得你們真的應該去思考，去弄一條臺金輪，可以去研究嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果是天候的因素，船也不能跑。"],["陳委員玉珍：還可以幫助觀光產業的發展。然後我們金門縣政府去年已經……"],["陳部長世凱：天氣不好，船也不能跑。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，你聽一下……"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們金門縣政府去年就已經拜會交通部，航港局也有提出來了、去年10月5日也提報要爭取了，如果你們願意出一點錢，我們金門縣政府也可以出一點錢，我們已經退到這樣，澎湖、馬祖都是你們全額出，我想我們金門縣政府也願意一起出一點錢來解決這個問題，院長是不是可以去研究一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：縣政府以及金門的居民如果認為這個是迫切需要的，我認為交通部應該跟他們去研議這個事情。"],["陳委員玉珍：公文已經來了，部長有看到嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有……"],["陳委員玉珍：縣政府公文已經來了。"],["陳部長世凱：我會跟縣政府一起來研議這件事情，我們來討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：是不是看看怎麼做，或者經費上大家怎麼來出嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果你們錢不夠，你們先幫我們出，我們現在沒錢，不然我們可以多寄一些金門高粱酒過來換啦！"],["陳部長世凱：金門縣政府的財政狀況算不錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：不好！現在越來越不好，但我們還是有酒，我們可以某一個酒窖就專門包給交通部，讓你們慢慢取用，沒有關係，你們幫我們造一條船。這樣可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們跟縣政府來研議。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，你跟縣政府好好地研究一下。","接下來我想請教一下，院長，你有看到前幾天賴總統親上火線錄節目的影片嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道這個影片嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我剛看到的時候以為這個是深偽、AI技術、詐騙。我是在網路上看到的，您知道這個影片嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統在主持總統府全社會防衛性委員會的會議當中，會有一些專家學者的建議等等，我們也認為這不一定是戰爭啦！我們就很多重大的……"],["陳委員玉珍：我想請教的是，上面這個是沃草，沒錯嘛！你知道嗎？這是他幫沃草錄製的，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：啊？"],["陳委員玉珍：沃草，上面右上方有「沃草」兩個字，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：沃草？喔！"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有？它這個不是在總統府的官方網站，它是在一個……當然我後來去查證了，賴清德總統有在他的臉書，大家如果沒看到，去他的臉書看一下，臉書有，後來我還確認這個不是假訊息，他在幫沃草，這個什麼單位？我不知道這是什麼單位？沃草，您知道這個組織嗎？您知道這個東西嗎？是沃草弄的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個網路的……"],["陳委員玉珍：他幫沃草錄製的。"],["卓院長榮泰：網路的媒體公司，把影片放下來……"],["陳委員玉珍：第一個，這有幾個問題啊！我們先……內容等一下討論，我們現在第一個，他幫一個網路的媒體公司錄影片。"],["陳部長世凱：那是抓他臉書上的影片下來。"],["陳委員玉珍：抓他臉書下來？所以他是在……"],["卓院長榮泰：這本來是沒有沃草的？"],["陳部長世凱：對，正版……"],["陳委員玉珍：它是抓他臉書影片？我看到的是沃草的這個影片，然後我後來回去看總統府……"],["陳部長世凱：例如您看那個udn，他不是幫udn錄嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，那是聯合報做成的新聞嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，那個沃草其實也是報導的新聞。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，你好像說錯了，我去查了一下，他好像是幫那個民間組織、網路公司，我不知道這是什麼組織，沃草這個組織，錄這個說全民要防衛、要注意，那您覺得這個不是……您看了有什麼感想？院長，看了有什麼想法？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統要傳達的是一個我們在大型的災難之後，全民要做一些對自己以及對周遭環境，國人的一些後援復舊的工作。"],["陳委員玉珍：說的可能是天災，比如說颱風啊！比如說地震啊！是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們常常發生。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是你幫總統詮釋的，還是他的想法？"],["卓院長榮泰：不，全社會防衛韌性就是這個意思。"],["陳委員玉珍：可是這個很奇怪喔！國家防災日是在前一天，他並不是在國家防災日放出這個影片耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：9月都是國家防災月。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那您知道他後面說了什麼？我也是……其實我剛開始也是跟你一樣的想法，說這個是不是地震啊！天災啊！颱風的時候，總統講了這個，結果後來……最後，您知道他最後，您有看那個影片看到最後嗎？我有整個看完，看了好多遍，你知道他的內容？有看到最後嗎？他說守護國家要自己救，這個不像在講災難啦！這個像在講戰爭啦！我傳給很多朋友說你們看這像什麼，所有的朋友，不管他是偏藍、偏綠或是中間的，大家都覺得說這個是要打仗嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我們到……"],["陳委員玉珍：你看了會不會有點膽顫心驚啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我最近經常到花蓮去，這樣類似的話我也常講啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼這樣類似的話？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是我們自己的國家要自己救，自己的地方要自己維護。"],["陳委員玉珍：自己的地方沒有問題，自己地方自己維護，這當然沒有問題啊！問題是……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個表達的……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那沒關係，你如果可以幫忙澄清也很好，就是說總統錄這個不是因為可能戰爭，這個很重要，您公開講清楚，不要讓民心惶惶，我也可以接受，您說吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：全社會防衛這個是非常多面向的，我們可能遇到天災地變，可能遇到一些我們想像不到的不法事情，但是都必須建立全民有這種全民防衛的心情。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，所以如果發生像今天的颱風，哪一天地震的時候，這個有需要民防隊出動嗎？是嗎？民防隊……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們昨天……"],["陳委員玉珍：就像颱風、地震，都需要民防隊出來嗎？因為他講到民防隊啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我在災害應變中心的時候，我們甚至要拜託國軍弟兄都要……"],["陳委員玉珍：國軍弟兄沒問題，國軍沒問題，國軍常常不管是作戰、救災都幫忙，那地震這個民防隊也要出動，是不是？我知道一下，我知道一下你們怎麼做，我的意思是說……"],["卓院長榮泰：國家必須儲備相關的人力，養兵就在千日，也許永遠用不到。"],["陳委員玉珍：你現在又在說兵嘛！我說的就是說，如果……"],["卓院長榮泰：我在講的是成語啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：按照你剛剛的前提，例如這個影片只是擔心這種災害的時候，颱風、地震的時候，當然我也是很願意接受這個說法，可是如果不是的話，如果是因應可能的戰爭的話，這是很多人看到的想法，至少我看了會嚇一跳，我們都非常擔心啦！如果這樣的話，其實我覺得如果要做好準備，總統應該很公開、很清楚的讓大家知道要怎麼做，不要造成民心惶惶，民心安定很重要，到底要怎麼做……"],["卓院長榮泰：雖然現在中國的軍機經常越過我們鄰接線的部分，但是我們對臺灣的安全跟和平還是有相當的信心的，而且我們要肩負……"],["陳委員玉珍：有信心是好事，但是備戰也是要做嘛！總統也是說要備戰嘛！所以你們有發布這個全民國防手冊，你有看過全民國防手冊嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們常說備戰才能避戰。"],["陳委員玉珍：你有看過全民國防手冊嗎？既然要備戰，身為這個最高……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在內部會議的時候有看過……"],["陳委員玉珍：最高行政首長有看過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是……"],["陳委員玉珍：好！行政院長，如果現在我們在質詢過程當中，突然中共就打過來，一個炮彈就掉下來，我們現在在立法院，我們要躲在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可能就必須要……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們最近的掩體在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，委員就指出一個非常重要、我們最近在討論的事情，其中有一項就是這個樣子……"],["陳委員玉珍：比如說現場的人要躲在哪個地方？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們除了說地震要趴下之外，如果更大的災難發生的時候，每一個人在當下要知道我要去哪裡，就是要建立這樣防衛的心情。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，各個縣市都有這個全民國防手冊嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有那個空間，是不是……"],["陳委員玉珍：你既然要做、要教育民眾，全民國防手冊各縣市都有嗎？院長、部長。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，全民國防手冊裡面可以點進去消防一點通，裡面都有所有……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，各個地方縣市都要有應變手冊，比如說我在臺北、我在金門，有各個縣市都有嗎？沒有嘛！您知道有多少個縣市有嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說防空避難設備，還是指……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是國防應變手冊，因為各地會有各地要躲在哪裡，要做什麼工作，我講例子給您聽。"],["顧部長立雄：國防部頒布一個全民國防手冊之後，各縣市政府會依照其轄區的特性調修那個手冊。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那有多少縣市調修出來了？"],["顧部長立雄：據我的了解，應該各縣市都有調整。"],["陳委員玉珍：錯，只有17個縣市有，你可能要再去追蹤了解一下，我不會針對你，因為謝謝國防部，國防部也是幫金門很多忙，在飛機沒有飛的時候，也幫忙我們飛了很多軍機，我們需要後送的時候都是國防部在幫我們，我們平時就很像戰時了。"],["顧部長立雄：如果還有縣市沒有調修的話，我們會下去再……"],["陳委員玉珍：是，所以如果總統有這樣的決心、有這樣的打算，第一個，要讓全民知道，不要讓民心惶惶。第二個，40萬民力這樣夠嗎？應該也是不夠吧？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這個是根據民防法相關的規定來做民力的編組訓練。"],["陳委員玉珍：40萬夠嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：它的範圍很大，包括要搶救重大的災難、協助……"],["陳委員玉珍：是啊！來打仗、通訊、救護，還有……"],["顧部長立雄：協助地方治安等等。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，事情很多，那40萬夠嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這個……"],["陳委員玉珍：夠嗎？院長，夠不夠？您是最高行政首長，如果真的遇到這樣大的事情，40萬夠嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們討論出來的這個數字就是基本的需求。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以是不夠的嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：基本的需求我們希望他是備而不用。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以如果總統真的要全面備戰，不尋求不要打仗、看有沒有什麼和平的方法，他希望但他不尋求，因為他說我們就全民一起來備戰，那也要讓百姓知道，這是第一個。當然，這是他的選擇，我們的總統、我們的元首，我們當然尊重。"],["顧部長立雄：我想這個主要在強化韌性。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，韌性，那其實40萬也是不夠的，我建議是不是開始討論，實施像以前金門做的那樣，全民皆兵，每個人都參加，組成民防自衛隊，不分男女，16歲到55歲。"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣現在沒有這樣的環境跟必要"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有這樣的環境喔？那你就是沒有打仗的環境啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在全民防衛韌性是安全的韌性。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你沒有打仗的環境嘛！因為你們沒有這樣的決心，如果要打仗，就不會分男或是女。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，民兵跟民力是不一樣的。"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，這個民力最重要的是在……"],["陳委員玉珍：不一樣？你覺得現在戰爭不會打到你家門口就對了？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，我們這個民力最主要是面對像今天颱風或者是天然災害，我們是處理協助，要先自救才能夠他救……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以不是面對戰爭啦！"],["董次長建宏：我們希望透過這樣的方式來協助。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是面對戰爭嘛！我只要這句話，不是面對戰爭嘛？"],["董次長建宏：我們的民防法有規定，這個民防法的規定裡面包括民間的自救能力，共同防衛人民的生命財產安全……"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝你，這個我會再繼續跟你們討論，因為我只剩下30秒，我要問一個問題。","院長，你住在哪裡？（金門語）你住在哪裡？（金門語）"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起。"],["陳委員玉珍：你要去哪裡？（金門語）你住在哪裡？（金門語）你聽不懂嗎？你聽不懂金門話喔？照文化部的說法，我這個金門話是臺灣臺語耶！金門腔耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：那我還要學習。"],["陳委員玉珍：還要學習？所以我這個就不是臺語嘛！你聽不懂臺語喔？我這個是金門話，所以你聽不懂，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，聽不懂。"],["陳委員玉珍：你聽不懂嘛！那為什麼我們金門話被文化部列為是臺灣台語？這個就不是台語嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是你會講就是國家語言。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，這個很重要，沒有列進來，這就是我今天要問的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，委員會講就是國家語言。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有列進來喔！沒有列進國家語言，列進來。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請王定宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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第二個就是他的國家 無論中央或地方的債務都暴增今年的失業率高漲 有一陣子還蓋牌還不講 不讓人家知道當然他現在的數據提出來都是美化"},{"start":72.418,"end":98.42,"text":"那之前一年多還有通貨緊縮的這樣的狀況然後再加上他又弄了一大堆的國安法案比如說亂抓台灣人然後他發生了這個深圳還有這個中國發生好幾件殺害外國人的這些事件那使得很多的外資包括台資也都一直在撤離"},{"start":99.561,"end":113.601,"text":"這是他之前的經濟狀況狀況很嚴重但是他上個禮拜他現在弄了一個非常猛的藥這個猛的藥猛到什麼地步呢猛到"},{"start":114.636,"end":141.989,"text":"我舉其中我覺得蠻離譜的就是他的央行可以循環借貸讓人去買進股票增持自己的股票為了要讓他的股市上漲不要跌居然讓央行直接間接的進入股市那這個當然短期內會很有效果但是其實這就是所謂的無毛印鈔了他的貨幣供給量"},{"start":143.663,"end":167.845,"text":"沒有一個根據不停的在增加所以大水漫灌短期可能會有一些效果果然這幾天看到上海的重症跟這個香港的股市的確都有大幅反彈的這樣的跡象但是這個是短期跡象如果你沒有實質內容支撐撐不下去的"},{"start":170.383,"end":172.684,"text":"所以我現在就是要請教那到底面對中國這樣的經濟情勢"},{"start":197.657,"end":225.325,"text":"我覺得他這一次的這個大水漫灌之後的這個將來的通膨更可以預期了將來資產能不能撐得住不知道但是通膨是絕對可以看得到的後果我想了解的是台灣到底在中國有多少的投資跟多少的這個產業上面現在的狀況是如何能夠幫助他們能夠離開這一個不合理的這個經營環境"},{"start":231.742,"end":236.091,"text":"委員一直很關心 不只是臺灣 包括兩岸的經濟狀況"},{"start":238.325,"end":257.962,"text":"冰凍三尺非一日之寒如果一個人質色彩這麼重又用軍國主義對外在擴張那本身又是黨國控制雖然它經過經濟的崛起數十年來有一定的程度但是這幾個因素一直存在的話它必定面臨很嚴重的社會衝擊那現在已經來臨了"},{"start":259.343,"end":284.565,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":284.565,"end":310.111,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":310.953,"end":326.543,"text":"像9月25號臺灣的34項農產品他又給你停止零關稅他老是拿他的這些經貿上面的這些惡劣的手段來當他政治上面他的攻防做政治上面的目的操作這一點"},{"start":327.765,"end":352.836,"text":"除了這三四項之後﹖後面可能還會繼續再來﹖我們政府有準備要怎麼樣子的﹖我們清楚說這個除了用經濟的壓迫之外﹖它還有政治的選擇﹖比如開放某一個地方指定哪一個地方可以﹖或是要求哪一個地方不可以﹖這個是政治上的選擇﹖這個是你我都了解的﹖我現在是要問說政府準備要怎麼樣子面對跟因應﹖"},{"start":354.709,"end":373.725,"text":"報告經濟部我們都每次他有這個動作之前之後我們都掌握後來也有一些作為甚至我們有預留了一些該有的做法但是不一定每次都會拿出來用請經濟部來談一下報告委員我想我們在經濟部裡面已經在之前就已經有成立這個投資台灣事務所"},{"start":374.825,"end":397.538,"text":"執行歡迎臺商回臺投資方案基於這個方案我像剛才這個委員所講的這個農業的這個問題我們面對這個問題幫助臺灣的這些產業希望他能夠在加值的這個活動轉向其他的這個市場不要只是看這個中國的市場這一點我們有積極在做"},{"start":398.536,"end":423.445,"text":"是 那剛剛問的這個農產品事項 我知道你的那個標準大概應該就是移轉市場嘛吼 那我們就是 如果中國這個是不是一個好的市場 我們也可以轉到別的市場去 但是那個是比較長期的短期之間馬上就受害 因為他常常不跟你磋商 就突然之間提出一個這樣作為這個攻擊的武器啊 那不知道陸委會跟農業部這邊有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":424.358,"end":441.486,"text":"我跟委員報告就是其實中國的市場是一個高風險的市場從100年開始他除了用不符合國際貿易的暫停我們的輸出還用所謂的那個輸送食品的註冊所以這三四年來其實我們已經積極的開拓中國以外的高端市場"},{"start":441.966,"end":467.411,"text":"我舉個實際的數字就是在109年的時候我們中國以外的市場的產值是38.6億到了去年的話是43.6億大概整整的多了5億那同一個時間我們對中國的輸出的部分已經降到了5億左右所以相對的就是說我們對中國市場的依賴程度也越來越少"},{"start":468.164,"end":487.521,"text":"當然我剛剛講的長期是你一定是要分散風險然後要到比較高端那當然我們自己的產品比如說冷鏈的建構使我們的產品能夠更優質也才有辦法賣到更高端的市場這長期是對的但是對於短期的因應阿對於這些馬上受損的這些人有什麼樣子的做法"},{"start":489.323,"end":503.692,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛講臺商面臨到空前的中國大陸的這個整個系統性的危機我們有三個做法那第一個部分當然就是讓他來回臺投資轉型升級"},{"start":504.172,"end":524.582,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":524.582,"end":554.172,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":554.252,"end":572.444,"text":"你的製造業呢你這個無限制的專注在哪個領域全用國家的力量去投資然後傾銷全世界全世界都在跟他呼籲這個國家是滿不講理的國家這個政府是沒有不合理的政府對中國不要抱這樣的期望必須要在知道說他是會做最壞的選擇之下我們要怎麼做"},{"start":572.944,"end":601.237,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":602.159,"end":606.209,"text":"委員長不好意思請幾個部長先回座我請今晚會主委來回答一下"},{"start":609.355,"end":632.17,"text":"金管會請你要說明最近金融機構在中國的監理政策之前他曾經講到我們這邊要增資或是在他那邊這個營業額超過50%以上的都只要他在別的市場要幹嘛都要經過他的同意這個聽說雷聲大雨點響但是到現在他也沒有核准過一家那台灣這些所謂的KY這些公司怎麼辦"},{"start":634.064,"end":635.286,"text":"這個問題現在有解決方案嗎?"},{"start":648.042,"end":668.079,"text":"現在我們對這個在大陸的這些的曝險特別我先跟委員報告一下就先從金融機構來講的話我們現在是希望他能夠持續的關注風險然後下降這個比率我想過去幾年來這個都非常的這個顯著我想從很多數據都看得出來"},{"start":668.88,"end":671.501,"text":"負險的比例 譬如說國有銀行負險的比例是在下降但是他的總體金額還是很高"},{"start":698.537,"end":700.144,"text":"因為我們大家的這幾年我們經濟發達資本"},{"start":702.625,"end":730.144,"text":"弄得很高的時候所以那個比例下降很大的因素是因為我們的BASE大的那但是他原來的他的那個額度還是蠻高的對最高的時候到一兆八千多億現在是大概九千六百億左右九千六百億也是一個很大的錢對但是就是相對的我們整個承受力因為當年大概是比如說最高曾經來到淨值的70%那時候我們的那個淨值才2.2兆現在到了4.6兆我們所以BASE等於擴大了一倍啊"},{"start":730.644,"end":749.636,"text":"對我們還是持續的在下降這個其實我覺得這是一個風險還有就是我們整個產業隨著政策往其他國家我現在不是只有要提醒中國現在香港被美國參眾兩院在去年12月通過國防授權法把它列為海外敵對勢力然後9月10號美國的眾議院又通過了香港經貿辦經濟貿易辦公室的認證法這個認證法是很厲害喔"},{"start":760.506,"end":789.02,"text":"他等於要取消香港在美國三個考慮要取消那個住在那邊的辦公單位那再來就是參議院如果通過現在眾議院已經通過了參議院如果通過再來就是美國總統要不要批准在這樣的狀況下這是很有可能通過的我們或許對中國的這個曝險是一件事台灣有多少銀行"},{"start":792.436,"end":801.768,"text":"在香港有這麼多辦事機構在香港逐漸變成中國的內地城市的演變過程中我們的因應方式"},{"start":802.83,"end":830.354,"text":"以及我們所要面臨的風險這個有沒有考慮在內在上個會期的時候委員在委員會上也有指證這件事情我們回去就把那個把中國跟香港一併考慮上是有本來是分開來處理像我們對香港的部分我們也開始有做一些比較嚴密的這些的考慮像剛剛那個委員提到我們現在在香港國營的部分大概有19家大概設有19家這個分行一家子行"},{"start":831.87,"end":844.818,"text":"保險只有兩個據點相對的這部分確實是比較多我們的證券相關行業的加速就更多那是過去有一些金融市場歷史的因素我想這部分我們也持續透過很多方式提醒他們風險的改變這我們會持續來做"},{"start":848.9,"end":861.32,"text":"那你有掌握我們台灣在香港掛牌的上市公司有多少嗎?我們現在台資在香港掛牌大概有61家那其中有12家是上市櫃公司同時在那邊做有11家是上櫃公司"},{"start":864.264,"end":892.81,"text":"其實這部分的話我們在過去假設你是上市櫃公司由金管會來主管的話他們如果要去香港去掛牌的話我們這邊會有一個審核機制也希望他們必須要通過他們股東大會的決議才可以做這件事情我們有在做這樣的監控機制我是說嚴密的跟他們溝通要了解他們的狀況因為他們有可能會遇到很艱難的狀況是 這我們在有透過交易所跟他們在做這樣的聯繫謝謝 報告委員我們會很關心台灣金融市場的體質跟健全"},{"start":893.65,"end":914.618,"text":"還有臺灣的臺商也非常的敏感像我們歡迎臺商回臺投資的行動方案就已經有超過300家臺商帶1.3兆的資金回臺中國跟香港都是有非常大的隱性風險的存在那個是政治力的風險不是一般的經營上面的風險那是額外的要注意最後我剩下幾秒鐘跟一個建議第7波的這個信用緊縮這個政策關於那個"},{"start":940.609,"end":945.446,"text":"好,謝謝國務委員還有卓院長下一位請陳鈺貞委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:32:54 - 09:48:48","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155035","gazette":{"lineno":251,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時33分）主席，麻煩請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：院長早。跟你請教，中國的經濟狀況前一陣子惡化的很嚴重，包括大家都知道他的幾個大的房地產公司都出問題嘛，有的甚至已經被清算、要倒閉，所以房地產有暴跌的情況。我以前常開玩笑說全世界打房最成功的國家就是中國，他把房價打到腰斬，甚至還沒有人要，當然這是一個笑話啦。","再來，第二個是這個國家無論中央或地方的債務都暴增，青年失業率高漲，有一陣子還蓋牌不講，不讓人家知道，當然他現在提出來的數據都是美化過的，之前一年多還有通貨緊縮的狀況，然後加上他又弄了一堆國安法案，譬如說亂抓臺灣人啊，然後發生了深圳，還有中國發生好幾件殺害外國人的這些事件，使得很多外資，包括臺資也都一直在撤離，這是他之前的經濟狀況，狀況很嚴重。但是他上個禮拜弄了一個非常猛的藥，這個猛藥猛到什麼地步？我舉其中我覺得滿離譜的，就是他的央行可以循環借貸，讓人去買進股票、增值自己股票，為了要讓他的股市上漲不要跌，居然讓央行直接、間接的進入股市。這帖藥當然短期內會很有效果，但是其實這就是所謂的「無錨印鈔」，他的貨幣供給量沒有一個根據不停的在增加，所以大水漫灌，短期可能會有一些效果，果然，這幾天看到上海的綜證跟香港的股市的確都有大幅反彈的跡象。但是這是短期跡象，如果沒有實質內容去支撐是撐不下去的，因為如果所有的外資都在撤離，然後你的國家不能夠提供給大家穩定的信用，讓大家能夠相信在你那邊經營是有成果的，是可以享受成果的，那我看這個短期的現象並沒有辦法解決問題。所以我現在就要請教，到底面對中國這樣的經濟情勢，我覺得他這一次的大水漫灌之後，將來的通膨更可以預期，將來資產價格能不能撐得住不知道，但是通膨是絕對可以看得到的後果，我想了解的是，臺灣到底在中國有多少的投資跟多少的產業，就現在的狀況要如何幫助他們能夠離開這一個不合理的經營環境？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝，委員一直很關心，不只是臺灣，也包括兩岸的經濟狀況。冰凍三尺非一日之寒，如果一個人治色彩這麼重，又用軍國主義對外在擴張，本身又是黨國控制，雖然他經過經濟的崛起，數十年來有一定的程度，但是這幾個因素一直存在的話，它必定面臨很嚴重的社會衝擊。現在衝擊已經來臨了，無論下任何的猛藥，到後來都可能是一個沒有辦法回頭的畸形發展。臺灣在很多的產業上面，因為過去跟中國有非常密切的連結跟關係，我們也無法一時間把他斷絕，但是我們也知道，有很多產業，包括金融體系，都有很多在中國的投資，甚至有很多的暴險。不過這個部分，基於營業上、產業上的考量，我們也不宜在這邊多說，但是我認為我們的經濟部、金管會都有相當的掌握。"],["吳委員秉叡：我只是要問說，我要了解說你知道這樣的危機有沒有在做準備、做因應？"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部跟金管會都有這些投資的對象，本國的產業……"],["吳委員秉叡：我舉一個例子，當然有的不是跟在場的兩位部長直接相關，像9月25號臺灣的34項農產品，他又給你停止零關稅，他老是拿這些經貿上面的惡劣手段來當作他政治上面的攻防，做政治上面的目的操作，這一點，除了這34項之外，後面可能還會繼續再來，我們的政府有準備要怎麼樣應對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們清楚他現在除了用經濟的壓迫之外，他還有政治的選擇，比方說他開放某一個地方或指定哪一個地方可以，或是要求哪個地方不可以，這個就是政治上的選擇，這個當然對我們都是傷害，我們……"],["吳委員秉叡：這是你我都了解的，我現在是要問，政府準備要怎麼樣面對跟因應？這一點能夠……"],["卓院長榮泰：其實包括經濟部，每次他有這個動作之前、之後，我們都掌握，後來也有一些作為，甚至我們有預留了一些該有的作法，但是不一定每次都會拿出來用，請經濟部來談一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們經濟部裡面在之前就已經有成立「投資臺灣事務所」，執行歡迎臺商回臺投資方案，基於這個方案，我想剛才委員所講的農漁業的這個問題，我們面對這個問題，幫助臺灣的產業，希望能夠提高它的附加價值並轉向其他的市場，不要只是看中國的市場，這一點我們有積極的在做。"],["吳委員秉叡：是。那剛剛問的34項農產品這個部分，我知道你的標準答案應該就是移轉市場，如果中國真的不是一個好的市場，我們也可以轉到別的市場去，但是那是比較長期的，短期之間馬上就受害，因為他常常不跟你磋商就突然之間提出這樣一個政策作為攻擊的武器，不知道陸委會跟農業部這邊有什麼樣的看法？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實中國的市場是一個高風險的市場，從100年開始，他們除了用不符合國際貿易的暫停我們的輸出，還用所謂的輸中食品的註冊，所以這三、四年來其實我們已經積極的開拓中國以外的高端市場，我舉一個實際的數字，就是在109年的時候我們在中國以外市場的產值是38.6億，到了去年是43.6億，大概整整多了5億，那在同一個時間我們對中國輸出的部分已經降到了5億左右，所以相對的就是我們對中國市場的倚賴程度也越來越少。"],["吳委員秉叡：當然，我剛剛講的就是長期你一定要分散風險，然後要到比較高端，那當然對於我們自己的產品，譬如說冷鏈的建構使我們的產品能夠更優質，也才有辦法賣到更高端的市場，這長期是對的，但是在短期的因應方面，對於這些馬上受損的這些人有什麼樣子的作法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：請陸委會。"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，剛剛講臺商面臨到空前的中國大陸這整個系統性的危機，我們有三個作法，第一個部分當然就是讓他回臺投資、轉型升級，那也協助他全球布局，剛剛你也提到人身安全的風險，在大陸這個風險是明顯提高，除了海基會跟他們保持聯繫、關懷之外，我們陸委會也希望我們在中國大陸的臺商、臺幹或是他的眷屬、臺生還有臺師，我們臺灣人去中國大陸，都要把聯絡的資訊放在我們的動態登錄系統，我們可以提供即時的協助。另外，我們就是要呼籲中國大陸，我們臺商對中國大陸的經濟貢獻是有目共睹的，那他應該要來落實保障我們的臺商朋友。"],["吳委員秉叡：你說這個呼籲，全世界都在跟他講，叫他不要傾銷，叫他要注意製造業無限制的專注在哪個領域，全用國家的力量去投資，然後傾銷到全世界，全世界都在跟他呼籲，可是這個國家是蠻不講理的國家，這個政府是不合理的政府，所以對中國不要抱這樣的期望。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：必須要知道他是會做最壞的選擇之下我們要怎麼做。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們的國人同胞也要知道，目前跟中國大陸做生意，很多是政策驅動，不是市場驅動，所以是靠著中國大陸他喜不喜歡我們臺灣的政策來驅動這個生意，這種貿易很可能都被武器化，對臺灣進行所謂的經濟制裁，所以我們也呼籲國人對中國大陸，包括觀光客、各種貿易都要有風險概念，做好風險準備。"],["吳委員秉叡：院長，不好意思，請幾個部長先回座，我請金管會主委來回答一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：我要請金管會說明最近在中國對金融機構的監理政策，之前他曾經講到我們這邊要增資或是在他那邊營業額超過50%以上，只要想在別的市場做什麼，都要經過他的同意，這個聽說是雷聲大雨點小，但是到現在他也沒有核准過一家，那臺灣這些所謂的KY公司要怎麼辦？變成有兩個公婆啊！受我們的管理，然後又要受他的管理，使得這些公司很多的財政模式沒有辦法處理，對這個問題現在有解決的方案嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們對這個在大陸的這些暴險，我先跟委員報告一下，先從金融機構來講的話，我們現在是希望它能夠持續的關注風險，然後下降這個比率，我想過去幾年來這個都非常的顯著，我想從很多數據都看得出來。那我們對大陸的部分，因為確實他們的風險升高，比如說剛剛委員有提到，對於他們不動產這個部分我們也非常嚴密的監控，我們也看到他的暴險，過去逾放的部分確實沒有惡化，也沒有特別的案例出現，我想對這部分我們會嚴密的監控，至於剛剛說的兩岸監理不一致，我們會想辦法來看看怎麼處理。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你說暴險的比例，譬如說國有銀行暴險的比例是在下降，但是它的總體金額還是很高，因為這幾年我們經濟發達、資本弄得很高之後，所以那個比例下降有很大的因素是因為我們的base大，但是它的那個額度還是蠻高的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，最高的時候到一兆八千多億，現在是在9,600億左右。"],["吳委員秉叡：9,600億也是一筆很大的錢。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是就是相對的，我們整個承受力……因為當年大概是……比如說最高曾經來到淨值的70%，那時候我們的淨值才2.2兆，現在到了4.6兆。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！所以base等於擴大了1倍。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們還是持續在下降這個……其實我覺得這是一個風險，還有就是我們整個產業隨著政策往其他國家移動……"],["吳委員秉叡：我現在不是只有要提醒中國。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在香港被美國參眾兩院在去年12月通過國防授權法，把他列為海外敵對勢力，然後9月10號，美國眾議院又通過了香港經濟貿易辦公室的認證法，這個認證法是很厲害喔，它等於考慮要取消香港駐在美國那邊3個辦公單位。再來就是參議院如果通過，現在眾議院已經通過了，參議院如果通過，再來就是美國總統要不要批准，在這樣的狀況下，這是很有可能通過的，我們或許對中國的暴險是一件事，臺灣有多少銀行，不論是公股的或是民間的，在香港有這麼多的辦事機構，在香港逐漸變成中國的內地城市這個演變的過程中，我們的因應方式以及我們所要面臨的風險，這個有沒有考慮在內？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，在上個會期的時候，委員在委員會上也有指正這件事情，我們回去就把中國跟香港一併考慮，本來是分開來處理，像我們對香港的部分，我們也開始有做一些比較嚴密的考慮，像剛才委員提到的，我們現在在香港國銀的部分大概有19家，大概設有19家分行、1家子行，保險只有2個據點，其實相對的這部分確實是比較多，我們的證券相關行業的家數就更多，那是過去有一些金融市場歷史的因素，我想這部分我們也持續透過很多方式提醒他們這個風險的改變，這個我們會持續來做。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，那你有掌握我們臺灣在香港掛牌的上市公司有多少嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在臺資在香港掛牌大概有61家，其中有12家是上市櫃公司同時在那邊做，有11家上市，1家是上櫃公司，所以其實這部分的話，在過去假設你是上市櫃公司，由金管會來主管的話，他們如果要去香港掛牌，我們這邊會有一個審核機制，也希望他們必須要通過他們股東大會的決議才可以做這件事，我們有在做這樣的監控機制。"],["吳委員秉叡：我是說嚴密地跟他們溝通，要了解他們的狀況，因為他們有可能會遇到很艱難的狀況。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們有透過交易所跟他們在做這樣的聯繫。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們會很關心臺灣金融市場的體質跟健全，還有臺灣的臺商也非常的敏感，像我們歡迎臺商回臺投資的行動方案，就已經有超過三百家臺商帶1.3兆的資金回來。"],["吳委員秉叡：我只是一再的強調，中國跟香港都是有非常大的隱性風險存在。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：那個是政治力的風險，不是一般的經營上的風險，那是額外的，要注意。最後我剩下幾秒鐘，有一個建議，第7波的信用緊縮政策，關於在中南部如果是共有房屋的持有人，是不是應該要給他……他沒有其他的房貸就一定要面臨這樣的狀況，我覺得這個應該要趕快檢討。"],["卓院長榮泰：就我所知，央行已經有在做這方面的思考，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員還有卓院長。","下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speake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三句話第一句台電的財務兩個因素一個是長期受電是在他的成本底下第二個因素他負擔了很多政策的補貼的政策作用像是醫院啊學校都有台電來吸收所以我們正式調整第一個我們希望反映成本所以把他的受電電價在工業用戶大戶的這個過程比較接近他的成本但是還是比起我們競爭的其他亞洲鄰近國家還要低一些"},{"start":106.082,"end":106.242,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":127.952,"end":128.593,"text":"你這個有撥補之前我們郭部長說"},{"start":142.713,"end":164.907,"text":"臺電應該要自給自足但是我們目前所做的是公務部門的一個公務預算撥補第二個把人民當提款機的漲價變相的雖然你在工業的部分漲價但是民生不漲但是會不會影響到我們整個物價指數的提升剛剛你沒回答本席的議題所以本席要請問你"},{"start":165.848,"end":184.675,"text":"你能不能答應在你目前的情況之下明年你還會用公務預算撥補嗎明年你還會再漲價嗎 電價請說公務預算的撥補現階段我們還有一個追加預算在大院裡面那是要彌補過去財務的虧損還有重要的現在民生用電的補貼要用這個方向來處理"},{"start":191.218,"end":216.592,"text":"民生用電怎麼補貼我們民生用電2點多元遠遠低於現在的發電成本所以總院長你也來自過民意的洗禮過所以你應該更了解所以本席要請問你的就是說目前你的能源政策你的電價是如何的來做第一個漲價第二個用公務預算來補本席要請教到目前為止你這麼做你以後還會這麼做嗎會不會"},{"start":218.433,"end":224.599,"text":"會不會?會不會?所以本集一開頭就請問你你工業漲了之後會不會影響物價?會不會?我們拭目以待我從一開始希望得到你的答案未來你會不會還是這兩個方向漲價跟工預算撥補?你的方針是不是如此?"},{"start":244.724,"end":249.071,"text":"這是現在必須進行的方向現在必須進行的方向本期請教未來會不會未來你的方針是不是"},{"start":259.86,"end":272.284,"text":"兩年讓財務健全那我們就拭目以待我還是要警惕的我還是警惕的提醒你要看我們的物價指數我們的民生生活到底怎麼樣你告訴我們兩年希望給台電的這個債務預算可以好我們拭目以待接下來本席請教"},{"start":286.041,"end":304.14,"text":"守護下一代我們要謝謝你們接受本席的建言因為本席一再關心我們從女性的HPV疫苗的公費施打到目前為止所以也告訴我們女性如果打了八成我們就可以考慮"},{"start":304.921,"end":307.762,"text":"公費接種HPV疫苗是不是我們在明年開始是不分性別開始施打"},{"start":324.987,"end":351.807,"text":"謝謝委員我記得委員已經不只一次提到這樣的問題我們關心下一代而且關心的下一代應該不分性別應該同時關心但是因為這個HPV這個疫苗它有性別上某種的差異所以我們從107年從女性國中女生就開始施打現在不是這樣子告訴我們錢不夠所以女性打了八成我們再來考慮男性這個都過了我們一切感恩請教立體明年"},{"start":354.329,"end":383.056,"text":"我們是不是不分男女就打HPV114年就開始是不是114年國中男生對就明天報告委員我們為了達到WHO消除子宮腎癌90 70 90這個目標所以在ACIP已經在113年5月24號通過決議要將HPV接種疫苗的擴展到國中的男學生所以有關於將國中男學生納入公會補助目前已便利便利在預算裡面"},{"start":383.957,"end":399.81,"text":"好 這個就是本席要謝謝的因為當時現在的邱部長也是邱立法委員我們一起努力一直推動一直推動這個就是我們一定要好好的來守護但是在施打前我還是建議就明年我們開始"},{"start":400.791,"end":402.212,"text":"接下來本席要請教院長"},{"start":420.398,"end":437.663,"text":"2025年我看到我們編列的預算927億也就是長照整體預算那所以呢在這樣的一個情況之下我們看到你這個長照逐年一定會增加預算因為我們人口老化非常的嚴重"},{"start":438.203,"end":457.223,"text":"所以預防措施是非常非常的重要我們要怎麼樣避免老人的一個失能臥床因為如果有這樣子情況下去我們的長照加注的人力跟資源會更多所以在這邊我請教你們有沒有固定的做健康檢查"},{"start":458.905,"end":482.085,"text":"院長你有沒有我上個月才剛做好部長你有沒有當然有當然有齁我們要鼓勵大家一定要定期的做健康檢查這個是預防重疑治療那所以呢本校請教你有沒有做骨質疏鬆的一個檢查院長你有沒有這次沒有這次沒有那部長你有嗎這次有嗎"},{"start":484.354,"end":506.16,"text":"我也沒有接受過好 我們實質來討論高齡者的沉默殺手就是骨質疏鬆症很多說長者你不要跌倒他不是願意跌倒我們要孝順他就是不平衡骨質疏鬆所以本期再給你一個數字也就是65歲以上民眾的骨質密度"},{"start":506.96,"end":528.622,"text":"有一個部位量測出有骨質疏鬆的比例是14.1%換句話說院長7個人就有一個骨質疏鬆7個就有一個我們再看到我們很緊張的也就是說長者萬一跌倒骨折尤其部長理事醫生更清楚他如果臥床"},{"start":529.403,"end":544.561,"text":"若施能他更需要家庭的照顧跟長照的介入那你的預算難怪每一年都要增加所以我希望我們全面的照顧在預防的這一環所以本期要請教院長跟部長你能不能撥普給65歲的長者"},{"start":548.686,"end":552.248,"text":"好 報告委員 我想股松一定要 要防止股松要從幼年的時候"},{"start":572.193,"end":602.193,"text":"楊瓊瓔"},{"start":602.893,"end":629.961,"text":"你有能力的人你從源頭去做你讓他篩檢你讓他篩檢可以幫助很多的家庭很多的長者因為一個跌倒就不能動臥床這很難過的事情你拜託好不好我拜託你把它納入你的撥補將老65歲以上骨質疏鬆納入我們的檢查撥補或者是納入在健保的一個篩檢裡頭可以嗎"},{"start":632.073,"end":632.954,"text":"臺灣老化速度是世界第一"},{"start":657.372,"end":682.038,"text":"很驚訝很驚訝臺灣老化的速度是世界第一所以我拜託你65歲以上的長者你讓他固執篩檢疏鬆篩檢的納入你絕對可以讓你的長照可以省掉很多的資源以及幫助很多的家庭好不好你去檢討是不是你多久可以告訴我們納入"},{"start":683.356,"end":696.404,"text":"只要這個衛福部專業的報告出來之後我們認為有需要我們就來看看裁員怎麼來籌措好 謝謝院長部長多久告訴我們我們馬上回去就把這個議題我們先從65歲以上的長者來做專家多久評估告訴我時間"},{"start":703.174,"end":729.659,"text":"我們大概希望在一個月內能夠開會我謝謝部長一個月內你開會有一個方向我們就先從65歲以上的長者來做檢驗好不好就從院長所說的專家認為需要真正可以幫助我們積極來研議謝謝對謝謝院長跟部長的一個支持那所以本席要在這邊要跟你討論的也就是我們的點子問題"},{"start":731.239,"end":752.173,"text":"點子問題0.95三黨決議通過在立法院通過院長明年度會不會編族趁現在預算重議的這個階段因為立法院不能增加預算所以在這樣的情況之下是三黨在立院裡頭"},{"start":753.875,"end":769.167,"text":"決議通過我想邱部長你自己本身在第9屆第5次會議的時候你也特別臨時提案希望點子到一血汗醫護這個影響非常的大所以在這樣的情況之下我拜託院長"},{"start":770.308,"end":779.757,"text":"我們本來希望1點值1.1塊但是因為我們也體諒預算要怎麼來所以1點0.95這是三黨決議明年會不會編足這個預算請教院長"},{"start":785.49,"end":798.382,"text":"我首先報告委員再請院長指導我首先感謝大家對醫療環境的改善我想所有的醫護界都深感感謝"},{"start":801.064,"end":824.111,"text":"您來自異界啊,所以你更了解啊,所以你應該要極力去編組啊當然,那我真的在這邊非常感謝行政院院長、行政院的團隊真的在預算的編列裡面一直積極的來投向改善我們整個醫療的環境告訴我,明年會不會編組?1.0.95我跟委員報告一下我們最低微的要求"},{"start":824.971,"end":826.012,"text":"請針對本期的提問點值1.0.95現在已經現在有1.0.82"},{"start":846.518,"end":863.828,"text":"這個嚴重白色巨塔萬一垮掉就沒有人有辦法負責的請告訴我立法院院長不好意思邱部長我要請教院長立法院三黨決議是全民共識是全民共識明年會不會編組1.0.95請教院長"},{"start":867.298,"end":884.413,"text":"我知道大院委員是站在為一屆部理屆爭取更多的權益但是我們考量的是今年的這個健保的給付已經相當高額那如果達到1.1塊那是不可能要達到0.95要達到0.95總額預算9000多億已經比去年多了"},{"start":894.588,"end":896.789,"text":"你只要增加700億你只要增加700億"},{"start":917.489,"end":922.511,"text":"你為了一個能源政策非核家園的神主牌你每一年1000億的公務卻撥補還漲我們當人民當體管機你只要增加700億你可以照顧2300萬的人民你竟然告訴我們我已經9000多了院長你在冷靜的思考我們針對5點0.95的點子"},{"start":947.141,"end":948.702,"text":"114年的總額已經增加將近700億了"},{"start":971.906,"end":991.902,"text":"所以你現在告訴我的是說你做不來是嗎點子1點0.95明年會不會達到請告訴我報告 報告委員因為從明年的總額實質上已經增加了我們盤算一樣增加了712億其實也符合到達0.95所需要的財務狀況總額制是陳時中部長他從德國拿回來"},{"start":999.398,"end":1003.193,"text":"這個過程到現在 血汗衣物已經產生社會現象"},{"start":1004.485,"end":1028.447,"text":"院長我還是誠意的建議你趁著現在正在從議預算請你趕快編組明年的1.0.95請注意聽這是在立法院三黨藍綠白全民共識的議決如果連立法院三黨共識的議決行政院都不編"},{"start":1030.646,"end":1044.718,"text":"那這是什麼政府能夠最平均資源去照顧全國的民眾我再一次請教院長明年立法院三讀通過立法院通過的三黨決議"},{"start":1047.741,"end":1060.426,"text":"點子1點0.95你會不會編你會不會達到會不會達到會不會達到我請教院長會不會達到就目前的財務來看就健保的總額給付來看明年要達到0.95應該有它實質上的困難"},{"start":1063.047,"end":1083.079,"text":"但是我們盡量的做任何的委員你還記得你剛剛上一題是要增加健保的骨質失蹤的檢查那個錢從哪裡來你一方面要增加檢查你剛一個行政院長問我錢從哪裡來你這個政府出了什麼事情啊你一方面要提高我們的使用一方面要增加我們的檢數這個是絕對矛盾的邱部長你冷靜"},{"start":1088.602,"end":1105.595,"text":"你不用回答了你絕對站在醫務在全民健康的立場上面請你用你的專業建議給我們卓院長明年編組明年我們有信心達到0.95我們在我們整個醫界的努力之下"},{"start":1106.115,"end":1116.062,"text":"那你怎麼跟卓院長兩個不同調啊?因為卓院長他...你告訴我是明年1點可以1點95是不是?所以邱部長你跟我回答的是明年會達到1點0.95是不是?你告訴我是不是邱部長?我必須...這樣我想...就可以..."},{"start":1133.634,"end":1151.466,"text":"應該有信心可以達到我們的目標就是0.95但是大家會一直增加我們的支出我現在如果給你保證要又增加你又提趙委員的提議又增加支出那我們要達到就困難所以大家要聽聽聽"},{"start":1153.948,"end":1164.592,"text":"他答應朝這個目標他認為可以成功所以我拜託你好 朝這個目標拜託你接下來我們請教來 超思現在監察委員說但是我們看到112年9月3號9月3號告訴我們說他不是一人公司"},{"start":1182.076,"end":1209.907,"text":"徐部長你請回但是我們看到監察委員這麼說所以我也請教院長一個人分四三角當時告訴我們這個公司很好50萬可以接收那麼大的一個金額所以請教院長法務部長在這裡吧法務部我要首先院長您聽喔我要請教這個一切都是由農業部代為處理嗎"},{"start":1211.991,"end":1234.246,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下他即可以獲得3800萬的手續費所以請教法務部長整個超時案是不是符合圖令相關的法律要件請教部長有沒有跟委員報告那個超時案現在臺北地檢署在正班中那這個有沒有相關的這個範型我想那個整個臺北地檢署檢察官會託為"},{"start":1235.367,"end":1236.188,"text":"所以現在檢調在調查當中"},{"start":1252.113,"end":1253.154,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":1270.506,"end":1300.166,"text":"很早在整個採購過程中已經做了行政調查但是行政調查中有關於行政調查你在112.9月份告訴我們他很好啊我們是主動移情檢調去調查的結果跟監察院長跟監察院查的完全不一樣所以我歡喜聽到院長你說要調查清楚這也是全民共識我們希望勿往勿中也不要誣蔑但是也要還原真相因為一個政府不能再有這樣的事件發生所以我們期待院長你說的調查清楚"},{"start":1301.107,"end":1303.27,"text":"請教院長目前我們面臨到這麼多的問題"},{"start":1311.834,"end":1311.894,"text":"執政部長"},{"start":1332.746,"end":1354.632,"text":"他認為有必要言所以我們現在國土法目前為您大的困境中央跟地方有9個縣市還沒有提所以換句話說溝通還沒有好第二個我們農業發展的地區有很多相關的條件不符尤其在六都裡頭縣市合併之後差距非常的大在這樣的一個情況那麼接下來就是"},{"start":1355.612,"end":1384.552,"text":"重疊的部分重疊的部分如農地跟我們的國保地重疊的區域要怎麼做處理現在還不清不楚所以本席要請教國土法的實施目的是要在未來的土地要有正義它有很重要的代表性這是一個非常重要的大工程是嗎您頻頻的點頭所以本席要請教在我們法律實施之前我們的國同縣市政府還不清楚民眾也不清楚現在民眾很擔心"},{"start":1385.453,"end":1392.055,"text":"國土法的實施有它法定的時程我們原來應該要照這個時程來進行但目前我們遇到困難成都委員所說有9個縣市並沒有向這個功能圖表送上來所以沒有辦法現在做一個統一整合的規劃"},{"start":1412.783,"end":1433.197,"text":"具體明年的4月時間相當的急迫所以包括內政部包括人力部還在跟地方政府積極的溝通當中甚至對於提出國土法內容很多疑義的部分就法律條文本身疑義的部分也在做試圖的說明跟溝通但好像這個進展目前來看是受到很多的挑戰"},{"start":1433.977,"end":1458.292,"text":"所以我充分建議院長在溝通未完成地方政府還沒有辦法送上來的時候我們應當要延後執行你認同嗎但是早一天能夠將國土有效的整體運用還沒有溝通之前當然這是我們的目標但是在沒有溝通執行者也不知道怎麼執行民眾也非常恐慌我們應該要延後你可以認同嗎"},{"start":1459.451,"end":1487.36,"text":"我是希望 國會延後內政部 農業部還是繼續跟地方溝通當然要溝通時間的掌握現在對我們來講是非常困難的是有困難的你也認定是有困難在明年4月內政部長也認為在內政委員會也認為有困難所以本期具體再次建議也就是在溝通未完成的時候那應該要延後執行那因為國土法本身有重大的意義有意義的工作通常都比較困難但是我們還是直接進行"},{"start":1489.1,"end":1507.763,"text":"請市長稍微回答一下我們一個結論就是在溝通會完成之前請院長延後執行好不好謝謝委員在進行溝通當中那個嘉義市跟苗栗縣已經都同意要送來了時間暫停阿你要還我20秒來那個市長請回延後執行我就違法我現在除非法有變更不然我沒有辦法延後執行"},{"start":1517.657,"end":1521.16,"text":"我們這一條藍色捷運等好久好久好久好久十幾年"},{"start":1536.107,"end":1563.825,"text":"我們的交通部長林交通部長來自臺中現任的部長也來自臺中他當議員的時候也全力支持嘛對不對陳部長你也是全力推動所以我們好不容易好不容易兩週前旅刊了那麼昨天我也在我們的這個工程會也跟主委討論過我要請教我們修正完成之後送到這個這個工程會來院長你是不是指示盡速審定完成"},{"start":1564.853,"end":1568.617,"text":"讓我們可以在2034年如期的來通車請教"},{"start":1570.44,"end":1575.202,"text":"陳部長你要清楚一點啦不是這樣子的工程會昨天你答應我在10月底以前把他審議完均是嗎"},{"start":1597.591,"end":1598.712,"text":"10月底可以完成基本設計的審查"},{"start":1612.867,"end":1613.347,"text":"你來督促好嗎"},{"start":1635.219,"end":1643.78,"text":"一切都要按照目前的進度循序進行那進行到最後已經到了像剛剛主委所說的這樣地步"},{"start":1644.253,"end":1670.05,"text":"這個程度那當然就會進到另外一個成熟期我們就往回前推所以您督促我們專案我也謝謝工程會工程會跟交通部都很用心來做這個事情全力來把它完成10月底我們的審議完成然後我們在今年年底可以實質工程進度陳部長這也是我們一起大家努力推動的全力努力接下來我要問台中舊三線鐵道副使鐵馬先行"},{"start":1671.684,"end":1695.99,"text":"我相信陳部長在當時當議員的時候不管縣議員市議員都全力的推動而且在林佳龍部長的時候他也全力去看過李孟淵部長也去看過王國才部長也都去看過院長大家去看過都說這個是臺灣的寶貝美的不得了所以我們一定要全力推動但是經過了三個部長到現在第四個部長我們的陳部長"},{"start":1698.05,"end":1725.785,"text":"有兩位都是來自臺中也非常的熟悉我們地方的美所以本期要請教臺中舊三線鐵道以泰安舊泰安鐵道文化園區還有泰安溪這個鐵橋8號隧道跟新泰安的車站為核心那麼從苗栗這邊到我們臺中的後里這個是非常nice那麼所以在這樣的情況之下舊三線的鐵道自行車原始舊"},{"start":1727.706,"end":1756.537,"text":"這個舊泰安的鐵道在三任的部長討論出一個9.14元的這個經費國發會也非常認同大家都認同請教請教我們院長鐵道復始鐵馬先行事關我們地方的發展跟觀光我們預估一年可以十幾萬的人觀光客進度到我們的地方來這是我們地方期待請教院長要不要全力的支持"},{"start":1758.254,"end":1784.214,"text":"地方上好的一個觀光的產業跟它的整個整體規劃都是政府在推動觀光重要的過程那至於說地方上像是鐵道、富士、鐵馬先行這樣的方式請部長來說一下是我想這一段其實有一段已經是有鐵馬了這邊其實我自己也去騎過非常的漂亮那你說前面有三個部長到那邊看過我也再陪您再看一次我們繼續來推動好不好"},{"start":1784.394,"end":1788.537,"text":"我希望拜託院長跟我去看不要三位部長看完都說很好全力支持數字好不容易已經出來現在就有"},{"start":1811.332,"end":1832.52,"text":"現任的陳部長來接棒 把它完成 競速完成好嗎 院長我請部長來規劃 那整個過程我們去做深入的瞭解好 深入的瞭解就是權力的支持嘛 對不對我們也希望將這個好消息告訴我們的地方因為除了我們的鐵道活化 還要增加觀光人數我要再次的謝謝 我也要再次的好 謝謝謝謝王議員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":1841.914,"end":1842.058,"text":"接下來"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:01:57 - 09:32:40","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155034","gazette":{"lineno":32,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（9時1分）謝謝院會主席──我們的江副院長，以及卓院長所領軍的行政院團隊、新聞界的朋友，楊瓊瓔發言，各位同仁大家好，首先請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長好。昨天中午發布了我們的電又在漲，在這樣的情況之下，告訴我們這一次民生先不漲，但是產業界漲，所以本席要請教院長，我們從公務預算來撥補，到目前為止，每一年撥補到現在，台電的負債仍舊沒有改善，在這樣的一個情況之下，本席要請教，我們將產業的電價來提升，會不會衝擊到整個經濟鏈、會不會衝擊到物價指數的提升？請教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，三句話，第一句，台電的財務兩個因素，一個是長期售電，是在它的成本底下；第二個因素，它負擔了很多政策補貼的政策作用，像是醫院、學校都由台電來吸收。所以這次調整，第一個，我們希望反應成本，所以把售電電價在工業用電大戶，比較接近它的成本，但是還是比起我們競爭的其他亞洲鄰近國家還要低一些。另外，我們希望穩定物價還有照顧民生這兩個區塊要同時達到，所以一些小商家、小商店、傳統產業等等比較低階的這個部分，我們儘量不漲它，或許有些只漲到7%，希望用這個方式，一方面穩定物價，一方面反應成本，讓台電的財務能夠自行健全。政策的部分，我們希望用其他的方式，由目的事業主管機關往後來負擔。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你說的這個撥補，之前我們郭部長說台電應該要自給自足……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我們目前所做的是公務部門的公務預算撥補；第二個，把人民當提款機的漲價，變相的……雖然你在工業的部分漲價，民生不漲，但是會不會影響到我們整個物價指數的提升？剛剛你沒回答本席的議題，所以本席要請問你，你能不能答應，在目前的情況之下，電價的部分，明年你還會用公務預算撥補嗎？明年你還會再漲價嗎？請說。"],["卓院長榮泰：公務預算的撥補，現階段我們還有一個追加預算在大院裡面，那是要彌補過去財務的虧損。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，本席再請教……"],["卓院長榮泰：還有重要的，現在民生用電的補貼，要用這個方向來處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：民生用電怎麼補貼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們民生用電是二點多元，遠遠低於現在的發電成本。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以卓院長，你也來自民意洗禮過，所以你應該更瞭解……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請問你，目前你的能源政策──電價是如何來做？第一個漲價，第二個用公務預算來補。本席要請教，到目前為止你這麼做，以後還會這麼做嗎？會不會？會不會？會不會？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在除了漲價之外，也有不漲跟凍漲，是同時進行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席一開頭就請問你，工業漲了之後會不會影響物價？會不會？我們拭目以待。我一開始希望得到你的答案，未來你會不會還是這兩個方向，漲價跟公務預算撥補？你的方針是不是如此？是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是現在必須進行的方向。郭部長講過……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在必須進行的方向？本席請教未來會不會？"],["卓院長榮泰：郭部長講過，希望……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：未來你的方針是不是……"],["卓院長榮泰：他希望兩年之後可以讓台電的財務健全。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兩年讓財務健全啦！那我們就拭目以待，我還是要警惕……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以你要支持我們的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我還是警惕地提醒，你要看我們的物價指數，我們的民生生活到底怎麼樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以請委員支持我們階段性的作法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我們兩年，希望台電的債務、預算可以好，我們拭目以待，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以請委員支持我們階段性的作法，我們才達得到。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席請教，守護下一代，我們要謝謝你們接受本席的建言，因為本席一再關心。我們從女性的HPV疫苗公費施打到目前為止，也告訴我們女性如果打了八成，就可以考慮男性。所以我也要特別感謝，也就是聽到我們的建言，因為我們一定要守護下一代孩子的健康。我要請教公費接種HPV疫苗，我們在明年開始是不是不分性別開始施打？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我記得委員已經不只一次提到這樣的問題，我們關心下一代，而且關心應該不分性別要同時關心。但是因為HPV疫苗，它有性別上某種的差異，所以我們107年從女性──國中女生就開始施打，現在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，不是這樣子，告訴我們錢不夠，所以女性打了八成，我們再來考慮男性，這個都過了，我們一切感恩，請教一題……"],["卓院長榮泰：114年開始……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：明年我們是不是不分男女就打HPV？"],["卓院長榮泰：114年就開始，部長再說明，114年國中男生就開始。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，就明年嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們為了達到WHO消除子宮頸癌90-70-90這個目標，所以ACIP已經在113年5月20號通過決議，要將HPV接種疫苗擴展到國中的男學生。所以有關於將國中男學生納入公費補助，目前已編列在預算裡面……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這個就是本席要謝謝的，因為當時現在的邱部長也是邱立法委員，我們一起努力，一直推動、一直推動……"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們一定要好好的來守護，但是我們在施打前……"],["邱部長泰源：我們最快114年就可以了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我還是建議明年開始，男、女國中生就來施打HPV的疫苗，保護我們的下一代。但是本席還是在這邊溫馨提醒，也就是在施打前相關的衛教溝通，請務必要做到，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：一定，是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個非常重要，好。接下來本席要請教院長，2025年我看到我們編列預算927億，也就是長照整體預算。在這樣的一個情況之下，我們看到長照一定會逐年增加預算，因為人口老化非常的嚴重，所以預防措施是非常非常的重要，我們要怎麼樣避免老人的失能、臥床？因為如果有這樣的情況下去，長照加注的人力跟資源會更多。","所以我請教，你們有沒有固定的做健康檢查？院長你有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：我上個月才剛做過。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，部長你有沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：我當然有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然有喔！我們要鼓勵大家，一定要定期的做健康檢查，這個是預防重於治療。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教，你們有沒有做骨質疏鬆的檢查？院長，你有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這一次沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有，那部長你有嗎？這一次有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我也沒有接受過……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你也沒有。好，我們來實質討論高齡者的沉默殺手──骨質疏鬆症，很多人和長者說：你不要跌倒。他不是願意跌倒，我們要孝順，他就是不平衡、骨質疏鬆。所以本席再給你一個數字，65歲以上民眾的骨質密度，有一個部位量測出骨質疏鬆的比率是14.1%。換句話說，院長，7個人就有1個骨質疏鬆，我們再看到、我們很緊張的，萬一長者跌倒骨折，尤其部長你是醫生會更清楚，他們如果臥床、如果失能，會更需要家庭照護跟長照的介入，難怪你的預算每一年都要增加，所以我希望我們在預防這一環全面照顧。本席要請教院長跟部長，你們能不能撥補給65歲的長者做骨鬆篩檢，或者將老人的健檢項目納入骨鬆篩檢？因為如果從這個部分去預防，你可以減少很多長照的預算跟需求及人力，請做說明。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，骨鬆一定要……要防止骨鬆要從幼年的時候，青壯年就要開始了，因為，35歲以前，進去的鈣質才可以吸收在骨頭裡面。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那連你自己都不檢查了？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我牛奶喝的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：能不能納入？請告訴我。"],["邱部長泰源：因為所有的篩檢項目都一定要經過專家會議，如果委員有這樣的關心建議，我們一定把它納入。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席具體建議，65歲以上的長者最怕的就是跌倒，為什麼會跌倒？"],["邱部長泰源：是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為骨質疏鬆。院長，你是有能力的人，你從源頭去做，讓他們篩檢，篩檢可以幫助很多的家庭，很多長者因為跌倒就不能動、臥床，這是很難過的事情，我拜託你，把它納入撥補，將65歲以上老人骨質疏鬆檢查納入撥補，或者納入在健保的篩檢裡頭，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們剛剛聽到部長說希望能夠透過醫師專業的認定，如果專業上認為這個絕對需要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：絕對需要。"],["卓院長榮泰：有助於老人健康的促進，在專業認定之後，我們再來看這個財源如何分配。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，有一個資料要告訴你，我告訴你絕對必要，是什麼呢？臺灣老化速度是世界第一……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這讓我很驚訝，臺灣老化的速度是世界第一！所以我拜託你，針對65歲以上的長者，你讓他們骨質疏鬆的篩檢納入，絕對可以讓長照省掉很多資源，以及幫助很多的家庭，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你去檢討，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久可以告訴我們納入？"],["卓院長榮泰：只要這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：明年起開始納入？"],["卓院長榮泰：衛福部的專業報告出來之後，若認為有需要，我們就來看看財源怎麼籌措，進一步來籌措。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝院長。部長，多久告訴我們？"],["邱部長泰源：我們回去馬上就把這個議題去做專家會議評估。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們先從65歲以上的長者來做。好，專家多久評估？告訴我時間。"],["邱部長泰源：大概希望在1個月內能夠開會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝部長，1個月內開會有一個方向，我們就先從65歲以上的長者來做檢驗，好不好？誠如院長所說的，專家認為需要，真正可以幫助。"],["邱部長泰源：我們積極來研議，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，謝謝院長跟部長的支持。","本席要在這邊要跟你討論的就是點值的問題，0.95元，三黨決議通過。在立法院通過，院長，明年度會不會編足？趁現在預算重議的這個階段，因為立法委員不能增加預算，所以在這樣情況之下，是三黨在立院裡頭決議通過。我想邱部長你自己本身在第9屆第5次會議時也特別提臨時提案，希望點值到1，血汗醫護啊！這個影響非常的大，在這樣的情況之下，我拜託院長，我們本來希望點值1點1元，但是因為我們也體諒預算要怎麼來的問題，所以1點0.95元，這是三黨決議，明年會不會編足這個預算？請教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長先答復。"],["邱部長泰源：我先向委員報告，再請院長指導。首先，我感謝大家對醫療環境的改善，我想所有的醫界、醫護界也都十分的感謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：您來自醫界啊！所以你更了解啊！所以你應該要極力去編足啊！"],["邱部長泰源：當然我在這邊，非常感謝行政院長，行政院的團隊真的在預算的編列裡面，一直積極的投入，以改善我們整個醫療的環境，提供給人民更好的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：告訴我，明年會不會編足1點0.95元？這是我們最卑微的要求。"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告一下，單單明年的總額成長率，這是有史以來，大概會到達9,286億……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對本席的提問，點值1點0.95元，院長你知道嗎？現在有的是1點0.82元欸！這個很嚴重，白色巨塔萬一垮掉，是沒有人有辦法負責的。"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們增加了……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：邱部長，不好意思，我要請教院長，這是立法院三黨的決議，是全民共識，所以明年會不會編足1點0.95元？請教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道大院委員是站在為醫界、護理界爭取更多的權益，但是我們考量的是，今年的健保給付已經相當高額，如果達到1點1元，那是不可能；要達到0.95……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：0.95元是院會決議的，是三黨共識，所以請教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：總額預算九千多億，已經比去年多了五百多億以上，如果達到0.95元，我們沒有那樣的財務，那整個健保的經營會更加的困難，所以我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，你這個回答讓我傷心啦！邱部長告訴我們，到達0.95元，你只要增加700億，你為了一個能源政策，非核家園的神主牌，你每年1,000億的公務預算去撥補，還漲我們電費，當人民是提款機；你只要增加700億，就可以照顧2,300萬的人民，可是你竟然告訴我們，預算已經九千多億了……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員這個邏輯有點不對，非核家園不是神主牌，1,000億的追加不是為了非核家園。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，請你再冷靜的思考，針對1點0.95元的點值，用700億來照顧全國2,300萬的民眾，你卻告訴我編不出來，我會傷心欸！人民繳那麼多納稅錢，最普遍的資源、最公平的分配，報告院長，換我給你報告，你做得來嗎？你明年會不會編？"],["卓院長榮泰：114年的總額已經增加將近700億了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你現在告訴我的是你做不來，是嗎？點值1點0.95元，明年會不會達到？請告訴我。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，經我們的盤算，明年的總額實質上已經增加了712億，其實也符合、到達0.95元所需要的財務狀況。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：總額制是陳時中部長從德國拿回來的，這個過程，到現在已經產生血汗醫護這樣一個社會現象，院長，我還是誠意的建議你，趁著現在正在重議預算，請你趕快編足明年的1點0.95元，請注意聽，這是立法院三黨藍、綠、白全民共識的議決，如果連立法院三黨共識的議決，行政院都不編，那這是什麼政府？這是能夠以最平均資源去照顧全國的民眾。","我再次請教院長，立法院通過的三黨決議，明年點值1點0.95元，你會不會編？你會不會達到？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我從衛福部……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我請問院長，會不會達到？"],["卓院長榮泰：就目前的財務來看，就健保的總額給付來看，明年要達到0.95元，應該有它實質上的困難，但是我們做任何的事情……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我傷心啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，還記得剛剛你的上一題是要增加健保中骨質疏鬆的檢查，那個錢從哪裡來？你一方面要增加檢查……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你一個行政院長問我錢從哪裡來？你這個政府出了什麼事情啊！院長，一個政府……"],["卓院長榮泰：你一方面要提高我們的使用，一方面要增加我們的點數，這是絕對矛盾的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你冷靜。邱部長，你不用回答了，相信你絕對站在醫護、站在全民健康的立場上，所以請你用你的專業建議卓院長明年編足。謝謝，請回。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，明年我們有信心達到0.95，在整個醫界的努力之下……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你怎麼跟卓院長兩個不同調？"],["邱部長泰源：因為卓院長他……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不了解？你告訴我1點可以0.95元是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：因為提升點值還有很多要做的事情，這是我們醫界要努力的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以邱部長回答我的是，明年會達到1點0.95元？"],["邱部長泰源：行政院已經拿出最大的力量……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經做了很多。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是？邱部長，你告訴我是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：醫界也要來配合。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：醫界絕對全力配合，請教部長，是不是？是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：應該有信心可以達到委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有信心達到？好……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的目標就是0.95，但是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我就趁著……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是大家會一直增加支出，我現在如果給你保證，照委員的提議增加支出，這樣我們要達到就會有困難。所以大家要心平氣和……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，你要聽你的部會首長講話。院長，他答應朝這個目標去做，他認為可以成功……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們本來就朝這個目標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，朝這個目標……"],["邱部長泰源：我們要朝各方面來努力。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是剛剛委員又增加了我們一筆預算……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來請教超思案。現在監察委員說……我們看到你們在112年9月3日告訴我們超思不是一人公司……邱部長，你請回。但我們卻看到監察委員這麼說，所以我要請教院長。一個人分飾三角，所以當時告訴我們這個公司很好，50萬可以接收那麼大的金額，所以想請教院長。法務部長在這裡吧？院長，我首先要請教，這一切都由農業部代為處理嗎？在這樣的情況之下，他獲得3,800萬的手續費，請教法務部長，整個超思案是不是符合圖利的相關法律要件？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，超思案……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我有或沒有就好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在臺北地檢署在偵辦中，至於有沒有相關犯行，我想臺北地檢署檢察官會妥為調查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，我想告訴你、本席要告訴你的是，當時到底是誰在說謊？誰在護航？誰指示？您知道嗎？怎麼敢這麼大膽做這些事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以現在檢調在調查當中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的立場呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：調查清楚。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：調查清楚？全民都在看！"],["卓院長榮泰：有任何的違法失職我們絕對嚴辦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是要調查清楚。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要調查清楚。我請教農業部，你的行政調查有沒有調查清楚？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，其實我們很早就針對整個採購過程做了行政調查，但是行政調查中有關於……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有行政調查？但你在112年9月還告訴我們它很好啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們主動移請檢調調查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：結果跟監察院查的完全不一樣！所以我很高興聽到院長說要調查清楚，這也是全民共識。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望勿枉勿縱，也不要污衊，但要還原真相，因為一個政府不能再有這樣的事件發生！所以我們期待能如院長所說的調查清楚！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還原真相，對不對？好，請回。","接下來本席要請教國土永續。請教院長，目前我們面臨到這麼多問題，不管是都市人口集中、土地正義以及行政部分，在22縣市做得來嗎？現在還有9個縣市沒有送上來，甚至有需要做調整的。在這樣的情況之下，我曾經在內政委員會問內政部長，他說有必要延，他認為有必要延！現在國土法面臨的困境是，還有9個縣市還沒有提給中央，換句話說，還沒有溝通好。第二，農業發展地區有很多相關條件不符之處，尤其是在六都，縣市合併之後有差距非常大的情況。接下來就是重疊部分，如農地與國保地重疊的區域要怎麼處理？現在還不清不楚。所以本席要請教，國土法實施目的是要讓未來的土地有正義，這有很重要的代表性，也是一個非常重要的大工程，是嗎？您頻頻點頭，所以本席要請教，在我們的法律實施之前，我們的溝通，縣市政府還不清楚，民眾也不清楚，現在民眾很擔心、很擔心，到底農一、農二、農三、農四是什麼情形，他們很擔心，在這樣的情況之下，請教院長，會不會延後實施？請教。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，國土法的實施有它法定的時程，我們原來應該要照這個時程來進行，但目前我們遇到困難，誠如委員所說，有9個縣市並沒有將功能分區圖表送上來，所以沒有辦法現在做統一整合的規劃，距離明年4月時間相當急迫……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！會不會延後實施？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以包括農業部、內政部都還在跟地方政府積極溝通當中，甚至對於提出國土法內容有很多疑義的部分，就法律條文本身有疑義的部分，也在做適度的說明跟溝通，但這個進展以目前來看好像還是受到很多的挑戰。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我充分建議院長，在溝通未完成，地方政府還沒辦法送上來的時候，我們應當要延後執行，你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是早一天能夠將國土有效的整體運用……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在還沒有溝通之前……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是國家最高政策。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，這是我們的目標，但是在沒有溝通，執行者不知道怎麼執行，民眾也非常恐慌，我們應該要延後，你可以認同嗎？會不會延後？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是希望內政部、農業部還是積極跟地方溝通……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然要溝通。"],["卓院長榮泰：但時間的掌握現在對我們來講是非常困難的，我知道明年4月要執行……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是有困難的？你也認定是有困難，在明年4月，內政部長在內政委員會也表示有困難，所以本席具體再次建議，也就是在溝通未完成的時候，應該要延後執行。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為國土法本身有重大的意義，有意義的工作通常都比較困難啦！但是我們還是持續在進行。","我請次長稍微回答一下。"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們一個結論，就是在溝通未完成之前，請院長延後執行，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，我們現在正在積極溝通當中……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝，因為時間關係，謝謝，你請回。"],["董次長建宏：嘉義市跟苗栗縣已經都同意要送來了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主席，我說請回了，對不對？時間暫停啊，你要還我20秒。"],["主席：次長請回。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，延後執行我就違法了，我現在必須做，除非法有變更，不然我沒有辦法延後執行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，方法是人找出來的，我們好好去找。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起來找，一起來找……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一起來找就表示你認同可以延後，我們一起來，謝謝。","接下來我要請問臺中藍線捷運拚2034年，院長，我們這條藍色捷運等好久、好久、好久、好久，等了十幾年，我們的交通部長，林佳龍部長來自臺中，現任部長也來自臺中，他當議員的時候也全力支持嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：陳部長，你也是全力推動嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們好不容易！2周前履勘了，昨天我也在質詢工程會的時候跟主委討論過，我要請教的是，修正完成之後會送到工程會來，院長，你是不是能指示儘速審定完成？讓我們可以在2034年如期通車，請教。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我請部長先說明進度。"],["陳部長世凱：有關這個部分，藍線捷運現在已經是在細部規劃當中……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：履勘了。"],["陳部長世凱：臺中市政府跟中央也都已經有撥款下去，開始進行土地購置的部分，其實進度都一直在走，這個沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：陳部長，你要清楚一點啦，不是這樣子的。工程會，昨天你答應我在10月底以前把它審議完竣，是嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：目前基本設計在審議……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：10月底以前完成？"],["陳主任委員金德：所以我們26號是去現勘……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，10月底以前完成。"],["陳主任委員金德：請臺中市政府有些補的資料……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，我們二週內會補，已經過了一週了。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們預定10月底可以完成基本設計的審查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，院長，您聽到了喔，我們理性的討論，因為這個對我們中部地區來說非常重要，尤其現任部長也是來自我們臺中，一定全力，所以工程會昨天答應我10月底一定要，我們送上來，你10月底速審，讓我們趕快去完成，能在年底實質工程進行，院長，好嗎？你來督促，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：一切都要按照目前的進度循序進行，進行到最後，已經到了像剛剛主委所說的程度，當然就會進到另外一個成熟期，我們就往前推。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以你督促，我們專案，我也謝謝工程會非常有guts……"],["卓院長榮泰：工程會跟交通部都會很用心來做這個事情。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，全力來把它完成，10月底審議完成，然後我們在今年年底可以實質工程進度，陳部長，這也是我們一起、大家一起努力推動的。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全力努力！","接下來我要問臺中舊山線鐵道復駛、鐵馬先行，我相信陳部長在當時當議員的時候，不管是縣議員、市議員都全力推動，而且在林佳龍部長的時候，他也去看過，李孟諺部長也去看過，王國材部長也去看過。院長，大家去看過後都說這個是臺灣的寶貝，美的不得了，所以我們一定要全力推動，但是經過了3個部長，到現在第4個部長是我們的陳部長，有2位都來自臺中，也非常的熟悉我們地方的美。本席要請教，臺中舊山線鐵道，以舊泰安鐵道文化園區，還有大安溪鐵橋、8號隧道跟新泰安車站為核心，從苗栗這邊到臺中后里，這是非常nice。在這樣的情況下，舊山線鐵道自行車延駛至舊泰安車站，歷經3任部長討論出一個9.14億元的經費，國發會也非常認同，大家都認同。請教我們院長，鐵道復駛、鐵馬先行，事關我們地方的發展跟觀光，我們預估1年可以有十幾萬的觀光客進入到我們的地方來，這是我們地方的期待，請教院長，要不要全力的支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：地方上好的一個觀光產業跟它的整體規劃都是政府在推動觀光重要的過程，至於說地方上，像是鐵道復駛、鐵馬先行這樣的方式，我請部長來說明一下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這一段其實有一段已經是有鐵馬了，其實我自己也去騎過，非常的漂亮，你說前面有3個部長到那邊看過，我也再陪您再看一次，我們繼續來推動，好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你願意再陪我看一次？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你剛剛講的有部分錯誤，你騎的不是鐵軌，我們講的是鐵軌，這個歷任了3任部長，我希望在你的任內去完成，也在有為的卓院長全力支持……"],["陳部長世凱：我跟你去看，我們來努力，好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你自己說要跟我去看，我拜託院長，跟我去看，不要3位部長看完都說很好、全力支持，數字好不容易已經出來，現在就由現任的陳部長接棒把它完成，盡速完成，好嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長來規劃，整個過程我們去做深入的了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，深入的了解就是全力的支持嘛，對不對？我們也希望將這個好消息告訴地方，因為除了我們的鐵道活化之外，還要增加觀光人數，我要再次謝謝，我也要再次的說……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝卓院長。","接下來請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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謝謝好"},{"start":135.72,"end":145.358,"text":"那個 院長你先請坐啦齁我請交通部長啦你坐就沒關係啦不用一直站著啦委員站著我就必須站著我沒有站一整天齁"},{"start":154.099,"end":172.003,"text":"陳部長其實我不知道現在進勞卡是可以搭台鐵搭火車你也知道這個議題我在這個位置質詢了很多次你7月30號還有召開座談會針對這個議題我已經努力了好幾年了所以已經完成了"},{"start":179.307,"end":202.887,"text":"上一次的總質詢我有請教李孟彥部長我說台鐵就是一個成功的例子了那高鐵呢高鐵我認為也是可以然後那時候部長跟我講說其實他非常支持他回去會研究會趕快來做那我不知道"},{"start":204.761,"end":230.426,"text":"部長你這個交接的時候這些有沒有交接於你進度如何這個議題其實我有了解也有掌握那這個勁老卡其實每個縣市都有在發那我們也希望他能夠拓展到更多的運具從現在可以用的運具到未來可以用的運具要漸漸的來增加那所以高鐵的部分"},{"start":230.826,"end":258.789,"text":"委員也都一直很關心那部裡面也有跟高鐵公司這邊來做研究那目前所了解他們如果要做12個站體要能夠接受敬老卡的這個設施的話他們必須要改硬體那目前看起來算起來他們的硬體設施大概要7000萬左右不包含後面的軟體的那個更改軟體的更改另外算那另外呢也需要跟地方政府來配合因為每個縣市的敬老卡他的系統不盡相同"},{"start":259.249,"end":287.044,"text":"所以後面可能還有很多要延續來做但是前面的這個硬體建設我們已經跟高鐵公司在研究了看可不可以趕快來做部長跟院長我要一個觀念要溝通剛開始要不要搭火車搭台鐵大家就在講說各縣市這個額度不一然後各縣市意願不一我就說你只要把它做好了"},{"start":288.376,"end":288.556,"text":"同樣的道理"},{"start":304.588,"end":323.688,"text":"你高鐵你看才花7000多萬雖然是很這個數字我們不能說少但是全台灣的長者有多少你花了7000多萬我跟你講就會有縣市去配合只要一個縣市往前走全部就跟著走了"},{"start":324.366,"end":347.461,"text":"那可以讓一個長者他一個多一個選擇的空間讓他們可以去搭高鐵我認為是一個非常好的一件事情所以部長我覺得這7000多萬在整個交通部來講真的是九牛一毛我覺得應該要花啦我們一起來促成我不知道院長你的看法"},{"start":348.75,"end":374.293,"text":"早上有位委員也提到問說我們是不是有敬老卡我就把敬老卡帶在身上我就把敬老卡帶在身上但是我真的用過它我搭過公車但是我還沒有搭過台鐵那如果它能夠更充分的使用的話那像我們這樣子還可以四處跑的人應該是相當的方便我是覺得建議交通部跟高鐵公司也能夠去協調一下盡量讓我們的長者能夠"},{"start":375.305,"end":399.162,"text":"因為活動而健康因為健康我們也不用這麼多的照顧的這個經費這樣來算的話7000多萬或者可以再節約一下是值得是應該的在這邊替全國的長者先謝謝卓院長替自己也爭取一下你還算年輕但替全國的長者真的謝謝因為不要覺得7000多萬多你全國那麼多人其實不多"},{"start":400.083,"end":400.103,"text":"部長"},{"start":414.027,"end":438.459,"text":"這個泰山板橋輕軌我一直在爭取一個射後支線這個部長你也剛上任可能不清楚可是我必須跟你講我們交通部這邊我們把這個規劃的路線什麼的其實都已經有設計的都已經有一個射後支線的輪廓出來了"},{"start":441.124,"end":461.144,"text":"那其實現在就是兩個一個新北市政府跟我們這邊大家能夠配合能夠把這個把它做好新北市政府也說他人道又要留了然後呢他又弄了好幾條的路線說一句白話就是因為選舉他在拖啦"},{"start":462.418,"end":487.97,"text":"因為這是一開始就是我提出來的啦那新北市政府的態度就是能拖就拖啦不要在選前齁這個能夠定案啦新北市政府的態度就是這樣啦那我在這邊我要跟部長您說包括泰山板橋輕軌那時候我第一次當立委的時候我就麻煩我們交通部給規劃的預算"},{"start":490.029,"end":516.555,"text":"但我覺得一個地方的交通建設不應該因為選舉不應該因為政黨的不同而拖到這個騎乘所以我要在這邊要跟部長你說該怎麼樣就怎麼樣我們硬起來給新北市政府不要他每次要來他都一堆理由中央不支持然後怎麼樣中央支持的東西他故意在那邊拖"},{"start":517.814,"end":526.622,"text":"然後講一堆理由我把這個情況讓部長知道你要交代你們底下你們鐵道部什麼的態度要硬起來"},{"start":527.654,"end":528.074,"text":"我們來努力推動"},{"start":555.729,"end":556.069,"text":"文化部長"},{"start":582.062,"end":609.536,"text":"部長在我們板橋有一個國家兒童未來館的一個新建計畫不知道部長對這個計畫了解多少跟委員報告一下這個計畫到去年11月20號就已經正式設計圖已經出來而且由那個日本的伊東李雄跟台灣的建築師標到這個案子然後設計圖已經做出來了"},{"start":610.296,"end":635.874,"text":"我上任以後知道有這個案子以後我立刻在一個月內約伊東李雄來台灣針對這個案子重新討論講出我們的一些想法我們彼此的想法非常接近他也非常愉快我們想要在一個打造一個像森林一般的這個森林一般的一個未來館那之後就我們要花這兩年的時間今年跟明年要做"},{"start":637.552,"end":655.19,"text":"構造設計跟細部設計還有執照的申請那在這個等待的過程中我已經決定要做一個願景館在那個草地上透過願景館跟我們的真正小孩子開始進行探索才了解什麼叫做未來什麼叫做兒童未來"},{"start":655.991,"end":656.011,"text":"部長"},{"start":684.836,"end":712.964,"text":"這一個國家兒童未來館以前叫做特專山的專用地9393年要蓋大台北新劇院我是支持的非常支持104年新北市政府他要蓋商辦蓋豪宅全板橋人只有我民意代表只有我敢反對我就是不讓他蓋商辦蓋豪宅"},{"start":713.922,"end":743.032,"text":"然後我當立委我積極爭取不管你要是新居院也好或設什麼的也好反正就是不可以蓋保護公司不可以蓋豪宅好不容易我的堅持跟我的爭取行政院合定了行政院164億165億合定了那現在我是希望他趕快好趕快做好我跟你講"},{"start":744.181,"end":762.788,"text":"委員長我必須要在前面說一下每一個部長上來都有他的新想法我不認為你們的新想法不對啦但不要每個部長來一個新想法哇又拖了啦那這拖到什麼時候啊"},{"start":763.797,"end":784.6,"text":"對不對委員報告剛剛部長說過已經跟團隊來簽約了日方團隊簽約了後續內政部會接手國土組我希望在5年當中能夠完成院長簽約是部長還未來前就簽約了啦我說他5年當中要完成內政部國土組來接手我來解釋一下"},{"start":785.2,"end":813.984,"text":"包括曾經追加的預算我也跟設計師重新再算一遍說保證不能再追加預算然後在那個建築的體多大全部再確定一次我非常感動在一個大雨中走到那個這麼精華的地方我真的覺得非常大膽的決定要蓋這個羅東未來館那我沒有想要耽誤時間我覺得我一定要在期間內完成我不但要完成"},{"start":814.704,"end":820.186,"text":"而且希望充分利用他在蓋的過程中給我們兒童建築教育"},{"start":820.885,"end":826.226,"text":"我沒有說你會拖到時間我是說每次都這樣都會有很多改變這第一個是擔心第二個你也看到了我為什麼堅持在那塊地就是不可以蓋百貨公司什麼的"},{"start":849.485,"end":874.403,"text":"板橋最後一塊最大的樹地地點又最好你要做這些做什麼我其實有更好的想法更好的創意我們都可以接受只要是為了整個小孩子好因為這已經定案了未來是全台灣甚至全世界的小孩來的不是只有板橋的小孩子來的所以我在這邊我必須要說"},{"start":876.565,"end":876.585,"text":"張宏陸議員"},{"start":891.034,"end":919.094,"text":"在這裡就是要跟部長你說不管有什麼新的想法 新的什麼拜託 風塵不要再因為新的想法 新的什麼大幅在變動了這樣子就會拖到很多的時間我不會有新的想法就在原有的結構裡面沒有太大改變這點請委員放心但是因為這麼珍貴的一塊土地對我們來講我真的是要好好的把它做成是一個世界級的兒童未來這點請委員放心"},{"start":920.555,"end":920.575,"text":"好"},{"start":949.753,"end":950.64,"text":"謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"17:01:09 - 17:17:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155050","gazette":{"lineno":1796,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（17時1分）我先請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：院長好。院長，今天剛好是10月1日。中共，我們以前叫偽政權，不過人家今天是他們慶祝建政75週年。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以他昨天晚上在人民大會堂又特別發表了談話，說到臺灣問題的時候，他又說要堅持一個中國原則和九二共識，深化兩岸經濟、文化交流合作，促進兩岸同胞心靈契合，堅決反對台獨分裂活動。最重要的是，他還是要說實現祖國完全統一啊！我不知道院長對他說的這些話有沒有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：耳熟能詳，但是我們就不卑不亢，維持我們自己國家主權的獨立跟安全，這才是我們現在之道，我覺得我們就是應該要對內追求民主，追求自由、經濟穩定的發展，這樣國家的實力才會越來越堅強，才會得到世界各個民主夥伴國家對我們更多的尊重跟需求。"],["張委員宏陸：是，我們也是應該這樣。其實他也沒有什麼新的說法，也是好事，我個人也認為是這樣。不知道陸委會的看法呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，他還是舊調，不過我們還是要凸出我們是主權獨立的國家，我們也還是要呼籲中共，要正視中華民國臺灣客觀事實存在的事實，還有臺灣人民對民主價值以及生活方式的堅持。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。院長，你先請坐，我請交通部長。你坐著沒關係，不用一直站著。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員站著，我就必須站著。"],["張委員宏陸：我沒有站一整天。","陳部長，其實我不知道，現在敬老卡是可以搭臺鐵……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["張委員宏陸：搭火車，你也知道，這個議題我在這個位置質詢了很多次，終於達……"],["陳部長世凱：你7月30日還有召開座談會，針對這個議題。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我已經努力了好幾年，所以已經完成了。上一次的總質詢我有請教李孟諺部長，我說臺鐵就是一個成功的例子，那高鐵呢？高鐵我認為也是可以，那時候部長跟我講其實他非常支持，他回去會研究，會趕快做。那我不知道部長你交接的時候，這些有沒有交接於你？進度如何？"],["陳部長世凱：這個議題其實我有了解也有掌握。敬老卡每個縣市都有在發，我們也希望它能夠拓展到更多運具，從現在可以用的運具到未來可以用的運具，要漸漸地來增加。高鐵的部分，委員也都一直很關心，部裡面也有跟高鐵公司這邊來做研究，目前所瞭解，如果要做12個站體能夠接受敬老卡的設施的話，他們必須要改硬體，目前算起來，他們的硬體設施大概要7,000萬左右，不包含後面的軟體更改，軟體的更改另外算。另外也需要跟地方政府配合，因為每個縣市敬老卡的系統不盡相同，所以後面可能還有很多工作要延續來做。但是前面的這個硬體建置，我們已經跟高鐵公司在研究了，看可不可以趕快來做。"],["張委員宏陸：部長跟院長，有一個觀念要溝通，剛開始要不要搭臺鐵，大家就在講各縣市額度不一、意願不一，我就說：你只要把它做好了，我跟你講，各縣市一定都會讓他們的長者可以去搭火車。果不其然，現在是不是幾乎全臺灣各縣市的長者都可以用敬老卡搭火車了？同樣的道理，高鐵，你看才花七千多萬，雖然這個數字我們不能說少，但是全臺灣的長者有多少？你花了七千多萬，我跟你講，就會有縣市去配合啦！只要有一個縣市往前走，全部就跟著走了。那可以讓長者多一個選擇的空間，讓他們可以去搭高鐵，我認為是非常好的一件事情。部長，我覺得這七千多萬在整個交通部來講真的是九牛一毛……"],["陳部長世凱：我們來跟高鐵公司研究，跟他們討論。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得應該要花啦！應該要花啦！好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們一起來促成。"],["張委員宏陸：我不知道院長你的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：早上有一位委員也提到我們是不是有敬老卡，我就把敬老卡帶在身上。我真的用過它，我搭過公車，但是還沒有搭過臺鐵。如果能夠更充分地使用的話，對於像我們這樣還可以四處跑的人，應該是相當的方便。我是覺得建議交通部跟高鐵公司也能夠去協調一下，儘量讓我們的長者能夠因為活動而健康，因為健康，我們也不用這麼多照顧的經費，這樣來算的話，七千多萬，或許可以再節約一下，是值得、是應該的。"],["張委員宏陸：好，在這邊替全國的長者先謝謝卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：也替自己爭取一下。"],["張委員宏陸：你還算年輕啦！","真的要代替全國長者謝謝你，不要覺得七千多萬算多，因為全國那麼多人，其實不多，花在每個人身上真的變成不多了，讓他們多一個選擇，可以這樣的話，我覺得是一個非常有意義的事情。","再來，針對泰山板橋輕軌，我一直在爭取一個社後支線，部長剛上任可能不清楚，我必須跟你講，交通部這邊對於規劃的路線什麼的其實都已經有設計了、都已經有一個社後支線的輪廓出來了，現在就是兩個，一個是新北市政府跟我們這邊，大家能夠配合、能夠把這個做好，新北市政府也說它廊道要留了，然後還弄了好幾條路線，講一句白的，就是因為選舉，它在拖啦！因為這一開始就是我提出來的啦！新北市政府的態度就是能拖就拖，不要在選前定案。新北市政府的態度就是這樣啦！我要在這邊跟部長說，包括泰山板橋輕軌，我第一次當立委的時候就麻煩交通部規劃了預算，但我覺得一個地方的交通建設不應該因為選舉、不應該因為政黨不同而拖到期程，所以我要在這邊跟部長說：該怎麼樣就怎麼樣嘛！我們硬起來嘛！不要新北市政府每次都一堆理由，說中央不支持，然後怎麼樣，對於中央支持的東西，它又故意在那邊拖！然後講一堆理由。我把這個情況讓部長知道。"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["張委員宏陸：你要交代你們底下鐵道局等等，態度要硬起來，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["張委員宏陸：而且之前的部長、之前的院長他們也都支持這個計畫，他們也認為多一個支線，多個幾十億，可以造福很多的人，這個錢他們也都完全贊同了，所以我在這邊要麻煩部長，這一題幫我們板橋人顧一下。"],["陳部長世凱：我們來努力推動。"],["張委員宏陸：態度要硬起來，不可以讓新北市政府這樣子，可以吧？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["張委員宏陸：那要拜託部長，謝謝。我來請一下文化部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，在我們板橋有一個國家兒童未來館的興建計畫，不知道部長對這個計畫了解多少？"],["李部長遠：是，跟委員報告一下，這個計畫到去年11月26號正式設計圖已經出來，而且由日本的伊東豊雄跟臺灣的建築師標到這個案子，設計圖已經做出來了，我上任知道有這個案子以後，我立刻在一個月內約伊東豊雄來臺灣針對這個案子重新討論，講出我們的一些想法。我們彼此的想法非常接近，他也非常愉快，我們想要打造一個像森林一般的未來館，之後我們要花兩年的時間，今年跟明年要做構造設計跟細部設計，還有執照的申請，在等待的過程中我已經決定要在草地上做一個願景館，透過願景館跟真正的小孩子開始進行探索，才了解什麼叫做未來、什麼叫做兒童未來，因為我們都是一些大人在設計，也請了很多專家學者給意見，到今天上午我還看到很多我們臺灣的設計師、建築師給了很多很多的意見，我想把這個意見帶到願景館裡面，跟我們的兒童一起共同摸索，如此我們的兒童就會很早開始參與這個未來館的一些建造跟想像。"],["張委員宏陸：這一個國家兒童未來館以前叫做特專三的專用地，93年要蓋大臺北新劇院，我是支持的，非常支持；104年新北市政府要蓋商辦、蓋豪宅，全板橋的民意代表只有我敢反對，我就是不讓它蓋商辦、蓋豪宅。我當立委之後積極爭取，不管你要蓋新劇院也好或設什麼也好，反正就是不可以蓋百貨公司，不可以蓋豪宅。好不容易，經過我的堅持跟我的爭取，行政院核定了，行政院核定了164億、165億，現在我希望它趕快做好。院長，我必須要在這邊說一下，每一個部長上來都有他的新想法，我不認為你們的新想法不對，但不要每個部長來一個新想法，又拖延了，這樣要拖到什麼時候啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，剛剛部長說過已經跟日方的團隊簽約了，後續內政部國土署會接手，希望在五年當中能夠完成。"],["張委員宏陸：院長，簽約是部長還沒來前就簽約了啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！我說五年當中要完成，內政部國土署來接手。"],["李部長遠：我來解釋一下，包括曾經追加的預算，我也跟設計師重新再算一遍，說保證不能再追加預算，還有建築的體積多大全部再確定一次，我非常感動在一個大雨中走到這麼精華的地方，我真的非常大膽的決定要蓋這個兒童未來館，我沒有想要耽誤時間，我覺得我一定要在期限內完成，我不但要完成，而且希望充分利用，在蓋的過程中給我們的兒童建築教育、田野教育，我覺得難得這個地方、這麼精華的地方留給我們未來的兒童，所以這點請委員放心。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，我沒有說你會拖到時間，我是說每次都這樣，都會有很多改變。"],["李部長遠：是、是，我知道。"],["張委員宏陸：這第一個是擔心。第二個，你也看到了，我為什麼堅持那塊地就是不可以蓋百貨公司什麼的？那是板橋最後一塊最大的素地，地點又最好，其實你要做什麼，如果有更好的想法、更好的創意，我們都可以接受，只要是為了小孩子好。因為這已經定案了，未來是全臺灣，甚至全世界的小孩會來，不是只有板橋的小孩子會來，所以我在這邊必須要說，部長，你說你去看了，那塊地多漂亮！而且當初我還堅持停車場要比現在的位置更多，所以這個預算才會到一百六十幾億。我在這裡就是要跟部長說，不管有什麼新的想法或新的什麼，拜託啦！工程不要再因為新的想法、新的什麼大幅在變動了，這樣子就會拖到很多的時間。"],["李部長遠：我不會有新的想法，就在原有的結構裡面，沒有太大改變，這點請委員放心。因為這麼珍貴的一塊土地，對我們來講，我真的是要好好的把它做成是一個世界級的兒童未來館，這點請委員放心。"],["張委員宏陸：既然你的想法跟我一樣，我們就一起努力。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["張委員宏陸：不過我也要請部長要跟你們的團隊說一下，我是在地的立委，這是我爭取、我生出來的，很多事情也要跟我溝通一下，要尊重一下、要溝通。"],["李部長遠：好，我在最近時間內，我們一起去。"],["卓院長榮泰：再跟委員請教。"],["張委員宏陸：我不是要部長再跑一趟，我是說你要跟他們講。"],["李部長遠：OK，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張委員，也謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長及各部會首長列席答詢。現作以下決定：下次會議繼續進行施政報告之質詢。","繼續處理復議案。","本院民進黨黨團針對第1次會議報告事項第二十四案之決定提出復議，請公決案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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我們請卓院長請院長備詢徐委員好"},{"start":31.491,"end":59.27,"text":"委員長好辛苦了我想請教一下卓院長因為今天我想要請教卓院長大概就是一些最近大家都很關心的一些議題其中第一項就是有關國土計畫法記得您第一次到立法院來備詢的時候我有請教過您相關的問題那我們可以看一下我們現在國土計畫法我們都可以知道就是為了國家的糧食安全所以我們現在有劃定了74到81萬公頃的必須要作為農地"},{"start":60.452,"end":60.492,"text":"國土計劃法﹚"},{"start":73.51,"end":100.625,"text":"我們可以看到雲林縣目前劃定的是農一是六萬然後農二是兩萬六千多百公頃然後屏東縣它雖然農地面積比較大但是它的農一目前只劃了五千七百七十六公頃那我想請教一下如果請教院長如果屏東可以這樣做那其他縣市是不是也能夠比照屏東的方式來劃設把國有地劃設為農一私有地劃設為農二"},{"start":102.407,"end":117.248,"text":"這是地方政府跟我們的相關單位要去做一個協商跟配合那總歸的是全國的土地要在能夠掌握有效資源的利用之下我們才能做這樣國土規劃的活動所以院長的意思也是同意全國的標準應該要一致"},{"start":120.532,"end":133.545,"text":"各縣市政府在化農業發展區的時候除了照相關的一些化社的原則以外還會參考縣市的發展的一個情況去處理第二個部分就是說屏東縣他"},{"start":135.006,"end":137.389,"text":"這不是看起來比較低喔 是低很多那我現在要請教的是說記得當時喔 那時候是這個"},{"start":150.926,"end":175.933,"text":"現場是潘孟安潘縣長他在畫社這個部分的時候呢我想內政部跟農業部其實好像針對這個部分其實也都覺得這樣子做法有別於其他縣市來畫社其實是不對的那也提出了道德勸說但是最後因為畢竟嘛這個畫社分區圖是縣市的一個這個來提報的所以最後還是尊重他那先通過他的草案請問是這樣嗎"},{"start":177.822,"end":178.203,"text":"這個我要澄清齁"},{"start":205.967,"end":220.158,"text":"現階段的國土的相關的這些功能分區圖都是在縣市政府的階段都沒有送到所謂的中央的部會內政部這邊來審議所以也沒有所謂說農業部退回去並沒有退回去這件事"},{"start":227.184,"end":254.579,"text":"1540公頃要他們百分之化身為農二要求他們恢復成農醫這是在111年1月4號的第21次的演商會議所以這個部分可能我想這個資料都是明確的所以這個部分我只想請教院長就是說是不是針對國土計畫的區分法可以讓各縣市都有統一的標準這剛剛部長已經解釋過了所以我想請教院長是不是可以這樣"},{"start":256.155,"end":258.716,"text":"現在為什麼很多的農民﹚很多的這個地方﹚農業縣的縣政府﹚對這個部分其實都非常的憂慮﹚主要就是因為 農一跟農二到底有什麼差別﹚"},{"start":279.048,"end":300.323,"text":"我直接的說因為在溝通的過程當中我們希望用土地專業理性去溝通但是如果有人一直在跟農民講說一旦實施的農民就永世不得翻身這種政治性的操作我覺得應該要停下來請教院長農一跟農二有什麼差別從事農業來講是完全沒有差的對農業來講是完全沒有差那既然這樣的話為什麼就乾脆劃在一起就不要分農一農二呢"},{"start":306.857,"end":328.087,"text":"我想農一農二的發生的時候在農一的時候是已經有比較多的這些基礎設施在那邊所以未來在後面的這些基礎設施的一個興建上面會有一個區別但是對農民來講是沒有差的因為其實我們現在一直說不清楚農一農二其實並不像院長剛剛講的那樣就是說大家在恐嚇農民不是而是因為現在的一個"},{"start":328.567,"end":328.667,"text":"許宇甄"},{"start":345.112,"end":366.638,"text":"我們可以看到99%的農會也都反對這個國土計劃法為什麼?因為就是不夠了解而且這個補貼或是相關的一個配套措施或相關的法令其實都一直不清楚尤其是我們的總共會有23項的執法目前已經完成14項還有9項還沒有完成"},{"start":367.597,"end":394.594,"text":"是這樣嗎那個請教一下部長我可不可以回答一下我跟委員報告一下那個其實國土計畫呢他有二級審議一級審議呢在縣市地方政府二級審議才到中央來那你剛有提到說在延商計畫當中被退回就我們內政部所主管的國土計畫唯一有一次被撤回的部分是桃園市因為他名詞或用詞不當所以其實並沒有像你所想像所以請部長可能回去查一下我時間還有包括哪一次都已經明確地告訴部長先應該"},{"start":397.056,"end":401.88,"text":"這部份是不是請部長能夠回去查清楚那可以讓雲林縣有一個瞭解清楚整個的那種風貌如果可以的話他們就再送再把這1500公斤再歸回去院長有再三指示說一定要好好的溝通那我剛剛跟您報告的部分就是說就我所瞭解的部份"},{"start":419.335,"end":419.816,"text":"其實我想對於農業縣的縣市長來說他們希望"},{"start":441.997,"end":467.655,"text":"能夠保障農民的權益絕對是我想高過我們任何一個人所以當時這個潘茂安這個縣長他在擔任他為什麼會把這個私有地都化成為農耳他就是認為這樣會影響農民的權益報告委員農會農民跟農地的權益從來沒有被不保障過那如果這樣子的話非常好我想今天不管部長跟院長其實都很同意就是我們要保障農民的權益這點是有共識的對"},{"start":468.976,"end":472.718,"text":"他們畫完以後我們農業部一定會跟他們溝通跟討論像上次雲林縣政府講的原來農業裡面有部分的地層下減區那我們覺得說地層下減區放在農業也不合理"},{"start":494.206,"end":510.282,"text":"實質討論"},{"start":511.163,"end":531.395,"text":"我們的配套措施還有補償措施甚至法令完成你看我們23項的執法其實經過9年了都還有9項到現在還沒完成那怎麼能夠期待我們其他的我們國土計畫裡面的23項裡面現在9項是在預告還有1項要討論而已所以到明年的4月30之前所謂的23項會完全全部完成所以這個部分可能請院長要特別希望縣市政府都可以跟農民講清楚"},{"start":540.421,"end":561.612,"text":"對 剛剛是講說農一跟農二其實沒有太大的差別可是我們可以看到現在這張圖喔我們是依據這個國土署的這個送審的資料可以看到其實差別是很大的所以說為什麼會這樣子呢我們是 它有導致農地的價格會降低而且對農民來說是財產權的一個受損所以呢我們根據憲法喔各位可以看一下根據憲法"},{"start":564.445,"end":586.715,"text":"有保障人民的財產權根據釋字第444號如果國家依法行使公權利至人民的財產遭受損失也應該要形成個人的特別的犧牲也應該要給予合理的補償所以說院長您有沒有認為應該要給予農民多少的怎麼樣的補償才算是合理您心目中有沒有一個具體的一個數字"},{"start":588.117,"end":606.733,"text":"我覺得應該跟農民朋友要說明清楚國土計劃法裡面真正它的用意如何來使用它的管制的規定那你剛剛提到農一農二為什麼要把它分開我們都混為一起2016年當初5月之前設定立這個法的時候它就這樣設定啦那除非現在我們重新再來"},{"start":607.193,"end":607.593,"text":"我跟委員說明齁"},{"start":635.738,"end":650.653,"text":"我們農業部對於農民或是農產業的一個支援的投入來協助農民的政策不會因為國土計畫而改變換句話說它不是一個說國土計畫要通過了才會有補貼沒通過就沒補貼"},{"start":651.414,"end":651.654,"text":"農業部最近幾年下來我們統計"},{"start":675.593,"end":703.856,"text":"對於農民的各項的補貼政策所使用的經費預算都相當的足夠那我記得說2023年我是指這個堆疊式的補貼堆疊式的補貼到目前為止我們在沒有新增加的情況之下大概有差不多100億左右是在進行我們農業本身我給這個院長跟部長看一個數字就是"},{"start":704.617,"end":726.022,"text":"民進黨政府大量的推動綠能所以我們可以看到如果我們在今年應該明年114年度的預算台電也編列了824億要購買太陽能的電力那請問院長你知道這個農地你可以看到我們租給太陽能的業者的話一年可以收多少的租金40萬的租金"},{"start":726.977,"end":742.774,"text":"也就是說什麼都不用做就可以收40萬的租金所以說針對這個部分我們可以看一下那如果農民呢農民他們到一年的收益是多少我們可以看下一張這個是根據農糧署的給的資料農民一年下來"},{"start":743.695,"end":762.558,"text":"包括生產然後工資利潤加起來才12萬多也就是說什麼都不用做找到這個租給供電業者就是40萬那農民自己的這個要存傳注意而且遇到像現在剛好颱風要來有可能是血本無歸也只有12最多也只有12萬多的收入所以針對這個部分院長我想"},{"start":763.579,"end":763.599,"text":"請問院長"},{"start":776.604,"end":803.691,"text":"光電的補貼我們還是希望農漁民還是從事他的生產啊這個才是對農民最好的照顧啊對啊但是呢問題是不利耕作的他只要租給光電一年就有40萬的收益那什麼我們這個優良農地的農民需要很努力很用心的而且一整年喔這個可以說有可能搞不好學本文規最多也就12萬多這個實在是對我們的這個弱勢農民是非常的不公平喔"},{"start":804.151,"end":832.595,"text":"所以本期在這邊有具體的三個主張請院長聽看看第一個就是希望院長能夠能夠召集跨部會的業務因為現在就有農業部內政部甚至可能還有其他部會那我們希望說能夠盡速的制定國土計劃法施行後的完整的配套以減少農業縣市跟農民的損失第二個希望農業部應該針對有受限制及有實質耕作的農地給予對地補貼那行政院也希望能夠參考太陽能光電美工"},{"start":833.615,"end":856.133,"text":"請的租金的收益支持農業部所需的預算第三個也是因應大家現在共同提出的不管草野立委都提出的就支持國土計劃法的修正草案將施行日期展延兩年讓農業縣市有更長的時間可以準備並有充足的時間跟農民溝通我在這邊代表廣大弱勢的農民請求院長"},{"start":857.434,"end":857.454,"text":"農業部"},{"start":873.906,"end":888.104,"text":"他對於農民的一些預算上面的補助跟支持長年以來都實質在增加剛剛說過去年大概200多億那我們會從這個制度面再去做更多的設想第三個部分我覺得這個需要朝野有共識"},{"start":889.185,"end":889.285,"text":"社會住宅"},{"start":913.567,"end":922.313,"text":"社會住宅興建的進度可以看到既有加新完工大概是31434戶興建中大概是42956戶以絕標代開工的大概是31992戶規劃中的是15556戶所以呢根據"},{"start":935.262,"end":953.067,"text":"院長您的這個施政報告裡面這邊的第6頁有提到今年底將達成12萬戶的目標可是就我們一般人看起來或我們一般人的認知已經完工的才算是已經完成的這個社會住宅"},{"start":953.607,"end":953.727,"text":"主席"},{"start":971.471,"end":995.711,"text":"是我想委員您講得非常的正確就是說如果我們把這個以絕標代開工的還有興建當中把它去掉的話確實在第一階段的109年底的時候我們是達標的是4萬戶而已所以您現在但是如果你把已經絕標跟新完工還有既有的加在一起的話到113年的8月底一共是106382戶"},{"start":999.017,"end":1021.733,"text":"那個是以絕標待開工﹖也就是還沒開工﹖請問還沒開工可以住嗎﹖更不可能住啊﹖當然﹖所以我的意思就是說﹖你不能把以絕標待開工﹖都當作你們已經完成的目標﹖所以技術的標準不一樣﹖包括說﹖您剛剛也特別提到﹖剛剛我們的廖偉祥﹖廖委員在提到的時候﹖您剛剛也回答說﹖也是報告裡面第7頁有的﹖"},{"start":1022.734,"end":1023.354,"text":"因為我們看下一張"},{"start":1042.276,"end":1052.691,"text":"審計部其實已經打臉了因為審計部這邊的報告特別提到在120年底蔡英文總統的12萬社會住宅只能蓋好98,699戶也就是說在"},{"start":1057.728,"end":1058.648,"text":"報告委員我可不可以補充說明一下"},{"start":1081.335,"end":1108.826,"text":"您現在所說的審計部的報告是112年針對過去啊這個蔡英文總統開始要蓋社會住宅跟包租貸款的戶數她是依照剛剛那個數字喔她是依照剛剛那個數字去推算的喔包括說20113年到8月底大概可以有37,017我們也看到審計部的報告所以我們現在重新在規劃的部分的話所以跟您剛剛提到的包括這個報告有非常大的落差"},{"start":1109.366,"end":1109.767,"text":"部長最後一句話你應該讓他說完"},{"start":1125.871,"end":1142.194,"text":"省計部的報告也許他是用過去我們在興建的各種方式來做一個計算跟推演那現在我們也看到執行上目前遇到的這些比較慢的速度所以他用多元的方式在取得土地甚至我們希望跟民間能夠做更充分的合作"},{"start":1143.015,"end":1153.969,"text":"議員長我這邊提出來就是要讓官院長或部長瞭解對這個部分其實這個數字就是會說謊目前的狀況也是這樣所以我們應該要怎麼樣去凸顯這樣的問題來去加速這個社會住宅能夠達到目標才是重點"},{"start":1162.7,"end":1169.646,"text":"社會住宅基本上是住宅中心執行的你知道520之後內政部很多人都希望調到住宅中心去你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":1179.347,"end":1206.668,"text":"住都中心它現在是一個算是民間的基金會它比較不受公務員的影響但是問題是住都中心的工作量也非常的大我不曉得有沒有這個原因但是我知道的狀況是院長您的薪資我們可以看到大概一個月是346,960這是院長的薪資那我們可以看到像一張住都中心的執行長一個月就有302,848還不包含主管家籍"},{"start":1207.737,"end":1231.056,"text":"所以你就知道為什麼住都中心他在114年度的用人費用高達5.44億職員有460人比原民會、客委會、公共工程委員會的人事費用都還高很多就是因為他們都坐臨高薪坐臨高薪如果可以把事情做好其實我們也都認同但是目前我們可以看到社會住宅嚴重的落後所以我們可以看到這個"},{"start":1232.297,"end":1251.896,"text":"這個部分是不是可以請部長能夠把這個部分能夠了解清楚為什麼這個我們的住都中心坐領這麼高的薪水可是呢就沒有辦法達到這樣的效果本來在我們通過住都中心的這樣子的基金會的時候就已經把薪資表按照這樣羅列出來所以其實我並沒有做更動那第二個呢住都中心呢在"},{"start":1253.336,"end":1278.264,"text":"賴總統上任之後加速在全台灣各地包括在金門、馬祖、離島的地方都有住都中心要蓋的社會住宅所以其實他們是非常的忙碌的部長其實在112年的審計部的決算報告也提出了很多住都中心的一些問題包括說租金收入未達領口次大運的租金收入未達新辦事業計畫的預期還有出租人或業者藝林補助費用等等相關的問題很多"},{"start":1279.364,"end":1308.087,"text":"那他們就很高興而且有很大的問題那不需要檢討嗎報告如果您提到林口社宅的部分其中有一部分作為清創基地在林口社宅完全交接之前甚至我們還聽到很多部長我甚至還聽到很多就說你在住宿中心去如果你後台不夠硬還進不去我就知道我就已經有人跟我講說就有一位是民進黨選過議員落選的人現在也在住宿中心暫缺但是是在部會任職"},{"start":1309.088,"end":1319.489,"text":"所以住都中心現在是不是已經變成這個民進黨的退福會還是這個肥貓養成中心那是不是只能夠姐姐長能夠了解清楚之後在一個月之內給我報告好嗎好"},{"start":1322.089,"end":1348.6,"text":"另外我再請教院長就是詐騙的問題也是大家非常關心的目前的話因為我們不管是行動電話的使用率或者是網路的使用率其實都非常的高有超過六成的民眾曾經接到過電話或網路詐騙的相關電話我想請教院長部長跟在座的官員請問你或是你的家人有沒有人收過詐騙集團的電話"},{"start":1352.602,"end":1359.327,"text":"有的話請舉手都會有一些親朋好友會給我們這樣的訊息受過詐騙集團的電話來電這幾年下來我們對於認識詐騙的各種的宣導還是有一些成效但是我還是承認詐騙的案件在社會上大家還是非常的痛苦"},{"start":1374.938,"end":1391.691,"text":"那我想這個部分我們可以先看一下行事警察局在這7年來他們有一個這個詐騙的案件跟金額的統計你可以看到的就是到去年底他的這個詐騙的件數來到了37984那詐騙的金額也到88.7億元那請問主委院長針對打詐這個中心講說他們現在的這個打詐成績其實越來越好那請問院長您對這個成績滿意嗎"},{"start":1405.202,"end":1405.523,"text":"我們看下一張"},{"start":1423.228,"end":1435.96,"text":"我們現在有一個打債預報板 行政署的打債預報板我現在只有列出7月跟8月的這個受理案件數跟這個財損金額光7月就111億光8月就137億就光這兩個月就這麼高的一個這個財損的一個金額"},{"start":1444.087,"end":1444.307,"text":"好的,好的"},{"start":1472.597,"end":1495.732,"text":"打詐儀表板就是我們長官要求說我們不可以有黑數所以就是每一天都會公佈打詐儀表板所以說表示現在這個是沒有黑數的其實我們已經把它更動也就是說一人一案而不是像以前很多人一案還有一個詐騙的金額的部分是他們主觀認定跟確定有多少詐騙金額是不一樣的我們打詐成效不彰的原因有哪些"},{"start":1501.589,"end":1514.105,"text":"打架打架成效不彰過去我們是苦於手中沒有強而有力的法律依據那現在我們已經經過大院也審定了打架新法這個理由絕對不存在我們希望能夠"},{"start":1515.026,"end":1515.847,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":1536.609,"end":1558.681,"text":"當然我們也希望說我們的這個宣導要用在對的地方用在對的人還有就是因為其實年輕人被詐騙的居多那他們其實都習慣用網路尤其是我們看到金管會有一個防詐專區你可以看一下就裡面有很多金融防詐的一個資訊點進去看你可以看一下就是"},{"start":1560.48,"end":1577.766,"text":"瀏覽的人次大概從2489到5809不等大概瀏覽人次這樣你不要以為一天的瀏覽人次有這麼多其實這個瀏覽人次是兩年2022年9月到現在都沒有更新了"},{"start":1578.709,"end":1578.909,"text":"許宇甄議員"},{"start":1599.989,"end":1616.194,"text":"關於我們自己金管會的網站就有這樣子的問題了所以是不是應該 院長您應該要請他們要改進但是也跟委員報告透過金管會跟財政部我們的公民銀行戶在零貴的服務方面對於打詐的這個功能是展現出來的"},{"start":1616.974,"end":1628.639,"text":"他們的服務已經超越了原來的工作上的職務所以金管會跟財政部跟公民銀行他們的宣導是多樣性的那這一點確實需要加強我們再請彭主委加強能夠把網頁做得更生動活潑更有直線式效應"},{"start":1636.903,"end":1637.163,"text":"我警官會特別注意"},{"start":1652.595,"end":1656.316,"text":"請問一下院長證券公司可以把客戶持股的資料給我們的這些公司能夠任意的使用嗎"},{"start":1681.67,"end":1704.627,"text":"也就是說營業員可以打電話給客戶說要委託書嗎我這邊就有一個實際的例子就是我的助理就接到這樣的電話就是他在那個這個星光金有這樣的一個股票然後營業員打給他要不要"},{"start":1705.327,"end":1724.143,"text":"可不可以把他的委託書給他我覺得這樣子的就像剛剛院長講的就是個資的問題可能就因為這樣的洩漏而且像這樣子的一個大型金控公司如果都自行利用證券公司的個資來這個洩密出去那說實在我們現在打詐都不利了還只有這樣子的公司居然是做這樣的一個狀況那請問院長你覺得這個部分應該來怎麼處理"},{"start":1727.746,"end":1751.811,"text":"報告委員我想這個案子我私底下再跟委員請教一下我們會來請同仁去了解一下我覺得這樣子其實會讓我們一般的老百姓都會覺得心生恐懼我是一個正常的管道去投資但是在這個公司開戶之後居然我的個資是可以用這樣的一個方式洩露出去那萬一洩露到詐騙集團手上要怎麼辦"},{"start":1752.751,"end":1774.824,"text":"所以這個部分可能要麻煩一下可能我們現在就像剛剛院長講的我們通過這個詐騙犯罪妨礙委之條例之後打詐司法之後我們都希望能夠把詐騙能夠降到最低但是呢現在的狀況目前看起來不是這樣目前看到這個件數越來越多那也希望這個部分院長一定要讓我們的這些相關的部會能夠針對這個打詐的這個部分能夠多多的宣傳"},{"start":1778.826,"end":1779.826,"text":"我當然鼓勵大家對我們的農民多多的支持"},{"start":1808.797,"end":1831.318,"text":"那其實呢﹖您知道嗎﹖今年就有部會是買這個日本的葡萄﹖去送給這個﹖這個必須請部會要檢討﹖其實這是國安局今年買的﹖就是送禮用的﹖是國安局﹖那為什麼國安局不買臺灣的水果呢﹖我們都在推廣這個農民的這個權益﹖"},{"start":1842.725,"end":1843.047,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-2","title":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:30:14 - 17:01:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155049","gazette":{"lineno":1617,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（16時30分）謝謝主席，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：請院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：院長好，辛苦了。今天我想要請教卓院長的大概都是最近大家都很關心的一些議題，其中第一項就是有關國土計畫法，記得您第一次到立法院來備詢的時候，我有請教過您相關的問題。我們可以看一下現在的國土計畫法，我們都可以知道，為了國家的糧食安全，所以我們現在有劃定了74萬到81萬公頃的土地必須要作為農地，以供應國家的糧食安全。我想請教一下院長，您可以看一下螢幕上的有關國土計畫法目前的繳交狀況，我們可以看到雲林縣目前劃定的農一是6萬公頃，然後農二是二萬六千多百公頃；屏東縣雖然農地面積比較大，但是它的農一目前只劃了5,776公頃。我想請教一下院長，如果屏東可以這樣做，其他縣市是不是也能夠比照屏東的方式來劃設，把國有地劃設為農一、私有地劃設為農二？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是地方政府跟我們的相關單位要去做一個協商跟配合，總歸的是，全國的土地要在能夠掌握有效資源的利用之下，我們才能做這樣國土規劃的推動。"],["許委員宇甄：所以院長的意思也是同意全國的標準應該要一致嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，各縣市政府在劃農業發展區的時候，除了照相關的一些劃設原則以外，還會參考縣市的發展情況去處理。第二個部分就是說，屏東縣劃起來看起來比較低，是因為目前一般劃農一、農二都是用特農跟一般農為基底去轉……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，這不是看起來比較低，而是低很多，我現在要請教的是說，記得那時候的縣長是潘孟安縣長，他在劃設這個部分的時候，內政部跟農業部好像針對這個部分也都覺得這樣的作法有別於其他縣市的劃設其實是不對的，也有提出了道德勸說，但是到最後，畢竟這個劃設分區圖是縣市來提報的，所以最後還是尊重他，先通過他的草案，請問是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：應該不是這樣子，我跟委員說明，縣市政府公展以後、審議完了以後會送到內政部來，然後內政部會用合議的方式去處理，這段時間還在溝通……"],["許委員宇甄：所以目前看到的這個資料……"],["陳部長駿季：會再去溝通，現在是縣市政府……"],["許委員宇甄：現在是這個階段嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：縣市政府的資料，對。"],["許委員宇甄：暫時是這樣的資料，那請問一下，為什麼當時雲林縣在提報的時候就被退回，然後要求重劃？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我要澄清，現階段國土相關的這些功能分區圖都是在縣市政府的階段，都沒有送到所謂中央部會內政部這邊來審議，所以也沒有所謂農業部退回去，並沒有退回去這件事。"],["許委員宇甄：雲林縣政府在111年1月4日第21次的研商會議當中，其中1,540公頃他們本來是劃設為農二，要求他們恢復成農一喔，這是在111年1月4號第21次的研商會議……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明……"],["許委員宇甄：所以這個部分的資料都是明確的……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道……"],["許委員宇甄：對於這個部分，我只想請教院長，針對國土計畫的區分是不是可以讓各縣市都有統一的一個標準？院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個剛剛部長已經解釋過了啊。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我想請教院長，是不是可以這樣？就是有一個統一的標準讓大家可以遵循。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，農業部有它的職權，部長剛剛解釋過了是全國一致的標準，如果有……"],["許委員宇甄：是全國一致的標準嘛，好。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有違反一致的標準，當然可以拿出來討論，剛剛部長解釋是在全國一致的標準。"],["許委員宇甄：現在為什麼很多的農民、很多農業縣的縣市政府對這個部分其實都非常的憂慮，主要就是因為農一跟農二到底有什麼差別？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我直接的說，因為在溝通的過程當中，我們希望用土地、專業、理性去溝通，但是如果有人一直在跟農民講說，一旦實施了，農民就永世不得翻身，這種政治性的操作，我覺得應該要停下來。"],["許委員宇甄：那請教院長，農一跟農二有什麼差別？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是一個是優良，一個是良好。"],["陳部長駿季：以從事農業來講是完全沒有差的。"],["許委員宇甄：好，對農業來講是完全沒有差的，既然這樣的話，為什麼不就乾脆劃在一起，就不要分農一、農二呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想農一、農二在劃設的時候，在農一的部分是已經有比較多的基礎設施在那邊，所以未來在後面這些基礎設施的興建上面會有一些區別，但是對農民來講是沒有差的。"],["許委員宇甄：我們現在一直說不清楚農一、農二，其實並不像院長剛剛講的那樣，就說大家在恐嚇農民，不是，而是因為現在不管是對農民的補貼，或者是說我們現在農一、農二的差異在哪裡其實都沒有搞清楚，農民都不清楚，所以才會有這樣的一個憂慮。而且不是只有農業縣市，甚至包括朝野的立委也都對這部分有提出質疑，我們也可以看到99%的農會也都反對這個國土計畫法，為什麼？因為就是不夠了解，而且補貼、相關的配套措施或是相關的法令其實都一直不清楚嘛，尤其是我們的國土計畫法總共會有23項子法，目前已經完成14項，還有9項還未完成，是這樣嗎？請教一下部長。"],["劉部長世芳：我可不可以回答一下？"],["許委員宇甄：對，請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告一下，其實國土計畫有分為二級審議，一級審議在縣市地方政府，二級審議才到中央來。你剛剛有提到說在研商計畫當中被退回，就我們內政部所主管的國土計畫，唯一有一次被撤回的部分是桃園市，因為它的名詞或用詞不當，所以其實並沒有像你所想像的……"],["許委員宇甄：這個請部長可能回去查一下，我把時間還有包括哪一次都已經明確的告訴部長……"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，但是有些研商會議並不代表官方的審議會議，我要跟您報告一下。再來……"],["許委員宇甄：那這一部分是不是請部長能夠回去查清楚，那就可以讓雲林縣了解清楚整個的風貌，如果可以的話，他們就再送嘛，可以再把這1,530公頃歸回去，可以這樣嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：對，沒有問題，院長也再三指示說一定要好好的溝通。那我剛剛跟您報告的部分就是說，就我所了解的部分，雲林現在也提出相當多的國土變更的需求，而且變更範圍的土地面積非常的大，已經達到有一萬多公頃。事實上如果國土計畫沒有把功能分區圖好好地劃分的話，未來其實要能夠通過的可能性，跟經濟部或者是教育部在合議的時候其實不太能夠成功。"],["許委員宇甄：其實我想對於農業縣的縣市長來說，他們希望能夠保障農民的權益絕對是高過我們任何一個人，所以當時潘孟安縣長為什麼會把私有地都劃成為農二，他就是認為這樣會影響農民的權益，所以說雲林縣……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，農會、農民跟農地的權益，從來沒有被不保障過，可能很多人是誤解了。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那如果這樣子的話非常好，我想今天不管是部長跟院長其實都很同意，就是我們要保障農民的權益，這點是有共識的嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["許委員宇甄：對。所以這個部分既然這樣子的話，是不是我們雲林縣也比照屏東縣的劃設標準去做，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員……"],["許委員宇甄：我知道您剛剛有提到，您剛剛有提到有各種不同的標準。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我跟委員說，他們劃完以後，我們農業部一定會跟他們溝通跟討論，像上次雲林縣政府講的，原來農一裡面有部分的地層下陷區，那我們覺得說地層下陷區放在農一也不合理，那一旦他們提出來以後，我們就會進入實質的討論去做一個調整。"],["許委員宇甄：原則上我們就是希望雲林縣也可以比照屏東縣的劃設標準去把農一、農二釐清，那在這個部分我覺得我們應該要先公布完整的配套措施還有補償措施，甚至法令的完成。你看全部23項的子法經過9年了都還有9項到現在還沒完成，那怎麼能夠期待我們其他的……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，報告委員，我們國土計畫法裡面的23項子法現在有9項是在預告，還有1項要討論而已，所以到明年的4月30日之前，所謂的23項……"],["許委員宇甄：經過了9年，那我們怎麼能夠期望說我們在這短短的時間內能夠去跟農民講清楚，所以這個部分可能請院長要特別……"],["劉部長世芳：我們也希望縣市政府都可以跟農民講清楚。"],["許委員宇甄：對，剛剛說農一跟農二其實沒有太大的差別，可是我們可以看到現在這張圖，我們依據國土署送審的資料可以看到其實差別是很大的，所以說為什麼會這樣子呢？它也導致農地的價格會降低，而且對農民來說是財產權的一個受損。各位可以看一下，根據憲法要保障人民的財產權，根據釋字第440號，如果國家依法行使公權力致人民的財產遭受損失，若形成個人之特別犧牲者，也應該要給予合理的補償。所以，院長，您有沒有認為應該要給予我們農民多少的、怎麼樣的補償才算是合理，您心目中有沒有一個具體的數字？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得應該要跟農民朋友說明清楚國土計畫法裡面真正的用意，還有如何來使用它的管制的規定。那您剛剛提到農一、農二為什麼要把它分開、為什麼不混為一起？當初在2016年5月立這個法的時候就是這樣設定的，除非現在我們重新再來，那經過了這麼多年，不只是子法沒有動，連母法也沒有動啊！"],["許委員宇甄：關於這個部分，不管是中央來的部會首長是誰，每次我們在地方上只要問到農一跟農二有什麼差別，大家的回答就是沒什麼差別，既然沒什麼差別，那為什麼還要分？我想這個也是我們必須要跟農民說清楚的，就是差別在哪裡、會有什麼樣的不同、針對農一有什麼樣的補貼、針對農二有什麼樣的補貼，我記得陳部長之前有講過，就是會有堆疊式的補貼。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們農業部對於農民或農產業進行資源投入來協助農民的政策不會因為國土計畫而改變，換句話說，並不是說國土計畫要通過了才會有補貼，沒通過就沒補貼，我們會持續的去協助，而且這個是配合我們的國家希望工程。"],["許委員宇甄：好，針對這個部分，院長看到他們這樣子的補貼，說實在的，農業部還沒有辦法編列一個完整、堆疊式的補貼來做為配套，我想其實主要原因就是預算嘛！院長，您願不願意給農業部預算讓他們來照顧農民呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：根據我們的統計，農業部在最近幾年下來對於農民的各項補貼政策所使用的經費、預算都相當的足夠，我記得在2023年這一年已經超過兩百多億……"],["許委員宇甄：我是指這個堆疊式的補貼。"],["卓院長榮泰：一年已經超過兩百多億，這是直接的補貼。"],["許委員宇甄：我知道，我指得是堆疊式的補貼，院長，這部分是不是可以？"],["陳部長駿季：關於堆疊式的補貼，到目前為止，我們在沒有新增加的情況之下，大概有差不多100億左右是在進行我們農業本身土地資源的……"],["許委員宇甄：我給院長跟部長看一個數字，就是民進黨政府大量的推動綠能，所以我們可以看到，在明年114年度的預算裡面，台電也編列了824億要購買太陽能的電力，請問院長，你知道農地如果租給太陽能業者的話，一年可以收多少的租金？是40萬的租金，也就是說，什麼都不用做，就可以收40萬的租金。針對這個部分，我們可以看一下農民他們一年的收益是多少？我們來看下一張，這個是根據農糧署所給的資料，這是農民的生產費用、工資、利潤，一年下來的收入加起來才十二萬多，也就是說，如果什麼都不用做，只要租給光電業者就是40萬；那農民自己耕作，除了要巡田水，而且像現在剛好颱風要來，也有可能會血本無歸，最多也只有十二萬多的收入。針對這個部分，請問院長，我們在給農民補貼或者是做照顧農民的相關措施時，是不是可以依照我們對光電業者的租金補貼去設算那個數字呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員講到光電的補貼，我們還是希望農漁民從事生產，這個才是對農民最好的照顧啊！"],["許委員宇甄：對，但是問題是不利耕作的農地只要租給光電業者，一年就有40萬的收益。"],["卓院長榮泰：那是不利耕作的部分。"],["許委員宇甄：那我們這些優良農地的農民需要很努力、很用心，而且一整年辛苦下來搞不好還血本無歸，最多也就十二萬多，這個實在是對我們弱勢的農民非常不公平。所以本席在這邊有三個具體的主張，請院長聽看看，第一個就是希望院長能夠召集跨部會的會議，因為現在就有農業部、內政部，甚至可能還有其他部會，那我們希望能夠儘速的制定國土計畫法施行後的完整配套，以減少農業縣市跟農民的損失；第二個是希望農業部應該針對有受限制且有實質耕作的農地給予對地補貼，也希望行政院能夠參考太陽能光電每公頃的租金收益，支持農業部所需的預算；第三個也是因應大家現在共同提出的，不管朝野立委都提出的，就是支持國土計畫法的修正草案，將施行日期展延二年，讓農業縣市有更長的時間可以準備，並有充足的時間跟農民溝通，我在這邊代表廣大的弱勢農民來請求院長，您同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我回答委員，第一點，我們現在已經有劉鏡清政委跟陳金德政委，再加上內政部跟農業部對國土計畫法如何推動、如何跟農民做溝通說明，持續的在進行相關會議當中。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：第二點，農業部對於農民的一些預算上面的補助跟支持，長年以來都實質在增加，我剛剛說過在去年達到兩百多億……"],["許委員宇甄：所以院長會繼續支持就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會從這個制度面再去做更多的設想……"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛我給你們一個標準，希望能夠比照……"],["卓院長榮泰：第三個部分，我覺得這個是需要朝野有共識，第三個部分必須大家有共識，我們才能知道到底現在我們是如何？還要繼續推？到明年4月30號這個期限如何再進行公告？"],["許委員宇甄：請院長針對這個部分，我想我們都是關心農民，而且是愛護農民的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["許委員宇甄：我們希望能夠為農民好。接下來也要請教部長的是社會住宅的部分，關於社會住宅的部分，您可以看一下我們現在社會住宅興建的進度，我們可以看到既有加新完工大概是3萬1,434戶，興建中大概是4萬2,956戶，已決標待開工的大概是3萬1,992戶，規劃中的是1萬5,556戶。所以根據院長您的施政報告第6頁，這裡面有提到今年底將達成12萬戶的目標，可是就我們一般人看起來或者是我們一般的認知，已經完工的才算是已經完成的社會住宅，所以算起來應該是三萬多戶吧！好吧，那我們寬鬆一點，加入興建中的也頂多就是七萬多戶，已決標待開工跟規劃中的這些將近五萬戶怎麼可以算是在年底前就能夠完成呢？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我想委員您講得非常的正確，就是說如果我們把已決標待開工的還有興建當中的去掉的話，確實在第一階段、109年底的時候，我們達標的是4萬戶而已。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你說在……"],["劉部長世芳：但是如果你把已經決標、新完工還有既有的加在一起的話，到113年8月底，一共是10萬6,382戶。"],["許委員宇甄：對，那個是已決標待開工，也就是還沒開工。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["許委員宇甄：請問還沒開工可以住嗎？根本不可能住啊！"],["劉部長世芳：當然。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我的意思就是說，你不能把已決標待開工跟規劃中都當作你們已經完成的目標。"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以計算標準不一樣。"],["許委員宇甄：所以包括您剛剛也特別提到，剛剛我們廖偉翔委員在提到的時候，您剛剛也回答說，也是這個報告的第7頁有提到的，「百萬租屋家庭支持計畫」大概在2032年會達到25萬戶社會住宅。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛廖委員希望你們簽一個承諾書，院長沒有簽嘛，我知道院長為什麼沒有簽，您知道嗎？因為審計部其實已經打臉了，審計部這邊的報告特別提到，在120年底，蔡英文總統的12萬戶社會住宅只能蓋好9萬8,699戶，也就是說，在120年底，也就是2031年只能夠達到9萬8,699戶，跟你們所提到的25萬戶社會住宅有很大的落差，這不是我說的，這是審計部的決算報告裡面所提到的，所以針對這個部分的話，顯然就是大跳票，而且也是在美化數字。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我可不可以補充說明一下？您現在所說的審計部的報告是112年，針對過去蔡英文總統開始要蓋社會住宅跟包租代管的戶數……"],["許委員宇甄：他是依照剛剛那個數字……"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，但是……"],["許委員宇甄：他是依照剛剛那個數字去推算的，包括到113年8月底，大概可以有3萬7,017……"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們也看到了審計部的報告，所以我們現在重新再規劃的部分，包括要怎麼樣多元取得土地……"],["許委員宇甄：所以跟您剛剛提到的，包括跟這個報告有著非常大的落差，我覺得這個部分其實我們應該要對國人說清楚講明白，而不是用這樣子的一個數字去美化，然後讓大家以為我們社會住宅的成績很好，我們應該務實地去面對這樣子的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，不是美化，部長最後一句話你應該讓他說完，審計部的報告也許是用過去我們在興建的各種方式來做一個計算跟推演，現在我們也看到目前在執行上遇到的，包括這些比較慢的速度，所以它用多元的方式再取得土地，甚至我們希望跟民間能夠做更充分的合作、更快速地取得土地，進而興建社宅。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我這邊提出來就是要讓我們院長或部長了解。"],["卓院長榮泰：都有在討論。"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個部分，其實數字就是會說話……"],["劉部長世芳：我們沒有美化，您所引用的數目字也都是官方的文字。"],["許委員宇甄：而且目前的狀況也是這樣，所以我們應該要怎麼樣去凸顯這樣的問題，進而加速社會住宅能夠達到目標才是重點。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的鼓勵，我們會加速取得土地。"],["許委員宇甄：當然在這個部分，尤其是社會住宅，基本上是住都中心這邊在執行的。"],["劉部長世芳：對，興建。"],["許委員宇甄：其實在520之後，內政部很多人都希望能夠調到住都中心去，您知道為什麼嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：住都中心現在是一個民間的基金會，它比較不受公務員的影響，但問題是住都中心的工作量非常的大。"],["許委員宇甄：我告訴你為什麼，我不曉得有沒有這個原因，但是我知道的狀況是，院長，您的薪資我們可以看到，大概一個月是34萬6,960元，這是院長的薪資；我們可以看到住都中心的執行長一個月就有30萬2,848元，這還不包含主管加給。所以你就知道為什麼住都中心在114年度的用人費用高達5.44億元，職員有460人，比原民會、客委會、公共工程委員會的人事費用都還高很多，就是因為他們都坐領高薪，坐領高薪如果可以把事情做好，其實我們也都認同，但是目前我們可以看到社會住宅嚴重的落後。所以是不是可以請部長能夠把這個部分了解清楚，為什麼我們的住都中心坐領這麼高的薪水，可是卻沒有辦法達到這樣的效果？"],["劉部長世芳：住都中心的薪水本來在我們通過住都中心這樣子的基金會的時候就已經把薪資表按照這樣羅列出來，所以其實我並沒有做更動；第二個，住都中心在賴總統上任之後，其實加速在全臺灣各地包括在金門、馬祖離島等地方都有住都中心要蓋的社會住宅，所以其實他們是非常忙碌的！"],["許委員宇甄：部長，其實在112年的審計部決算報告也提出很多住都中心的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["許委員宇甄：包括……"],["劉部長世芳：我們都把它列入要檢討改進的。"],["許委員宇甄：林口世大運的租金收入未達興辦事業計畫的預期，還有出租人或業者溢領補助費用等等相關的問題很多。"],["劉部長世芳：這個我們有改善。"],["許委員宇甄：他們坐領高薪，而且有很大的問題，難道不需要檢討嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告，如果您提到林口社宅的部分，其中有一部分作為青創基地，在林口社宅完全交接之前已經確定是在……而且裡面有一些……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我甚至還聽到很多說到，要去住都中心，如果後臺不夠硬還進不去，就已經有人跟我講，有一位民進黨選過議員落選的人現在在住都中心占缺，但是是在部會任職，所以住都中心現在是不是已經變成民進黨的退輔會還是肥貓養成中心？"],["劉部長世芳：我不清楚，歡迎您來檢舉。"],["許委員宇甄：是不是只能夠請部長了解清楚之後，在一個月之內給我報告？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["許委員宇甄：另外我想再請教院長的就是，詐騙的問題也是大家非常關心的，目前不管是行動電話的使用率，或者是網路的使用率都非常的高，有超過六成的民眾曾經接到過電話或網路詐騙的相關電話，我想請教院長、部長跟在座的官員，請問你或是你的家人，有沒有人收過詐騙集團的電話？都沒有嗎？有的話請舉手！"],["卓院長榮泰：都會有一些親朋好友會給我們這樣的訊息，就是接受過詐騙集團的電話。"],["許委員宇甄：對。所以說應該在座……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是經過我們最近這幾年下來，我們對於識詐（就是認識詐騙）的各種宣導還是有一些成效。"],["許委員宇甄：所以剛剛院長講，就是我們……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我還是承認，詐騙的案件在社會上大家還是非常的痛惡。"],["許委員宇甄：非常的多。我想這個部分我們可以先看一下，刑事警察局在這七年來有一個詐騙案件跟金額的統計，你可以看到，到去年底詐騙件數來到37,984件，詐騙金額也達到88.7億元。請問卓院長，針對打詐中心說他們現在的打詐成績其實越來越好，請問院長，您對這個成績滿意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：成績不能說越來越好，只是我一直認為，我們不是越打越多，而是不打它會更多，確實是有一些成效出來，但是……"],["許委員宇甄：我們看下一張……"],["卓院長榮泰：詐騙集團也是日新月異在翻新很多詐騙的手法，而且有很多科技的詐騙，我們都必須往下做。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，您看一下，我們現在有一個打詐儀錶板，就是警政署的打詐儀錶板。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["許委員宇甄：我現在只有列出7月和8月的受理案件數以及財損金額，光7月就有111億，光8月就有137億，光這兩個月就有這麼高的財損金額。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我可不可以補充？"],["許委員宇甄：沒關係，我先問完，為什麼會有這麼高的金額？我們可以看到詐騙的手法有很多種，我們可以看到第一點跟第四點其實差不多，就都是投資詐騙！既然投資詐騙非常的多，是不是這方面的宣導應該也要更多？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["許委員宇甄：是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會持續加強。"],["許委員宇甄：可是我們可以看到……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，就是因為我們長官要求說我們不可以有黑數，所以我們每一天都會公布打詐儀錶板。"],["許委員宇甄：所以表示現在這個是沒有黑數的？"],["劉部長世芳：然後裡面的案件數其實我們已經把它更動，也就是說一人一案，而不是像以前很多人一案，那還有詐騙金額的部分是他們主觀認定，跟確定有多少詐騙金額是不一樣的。"],["許委員宇甄：我想請教一下院長，您知不知道我們打詐成效不彰的原因有哪些？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個，我想……"],["許委員宇甄：我想請教院長，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：打詐的成效不彰，過去我們是苦於手中沒有強而有力的法律依據，現在我們已經經過大院審定了打詐新法，這個理由絕對不存在，我們希望能夠補充充足的人力、有法律的依據，甚至我們有先進的科技設備。"],["許委員宇甄：之前可能就是因為破獲率低、刑期太短，還有可能就是我們的宣傳不夠，所以就是說……"],["卓院長榮泰：第四個就是要加強它的刑度。"],["許委員宇甄：所以說其實打詐這部分，我想一般人普遍的認知都是覺得詐騙的問題越來越猖狂、越來越嚴重，當然我們也希望我們的宣導要用在對的地方、用在對的人，而年輕人被詐騙的居多，他們都習慣用網路，我們看到金管會有一個防詐專區，您可以看一下，裡面有很多金融防詐的資訊，點進去看，您可以看一下，瀏覽的人次大概從2,489到5,809不等啦，瀏覽人次大概是這樣，你不要以為一天的瀏覽人次有這麼多喔，其實這個瀏覽人次是兩年，從2022年9月到現在都沒有更新了，兩年的時間有兩千多人瀏覽，就代表說一天可能三個人，所以這樣的打詐成效怎麼會好呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：這要持續的加強。"],["許委員宇甄：所以說金管會在這方面，因為很多人比如他遇到投資詐騙的問題，可能第一時間就會想到這是金管會，他想要去多瞭解，結果居然是這樣一個網站，你說用宣傳的方式，結果光金管會的網站就有這樣的問題了，所以院長是不是應該再請他們改進？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，這個必須要加強，但是也跟委員報告，透過金管會跟財政部，我們的公民營行庫在臨櫃的服務方面，打詐的功能已展現出來了，他們的服務已經超越了原來工作上的服務。"],["許委員宇甄：這個我不否認，我覺得在銀行的部分……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以金管會、財政部跟公民營行庫的宣導是多樣性的。"],["許委員宇甄：但是剛剛我們在講宣導嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：這一點確實需要加強。"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分可能請……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再請彭主委加強，能夠把網頁做得更生動活潑、更有直接的效益。"],["許委員宇甄：還有就是不要兩年都沒更新，打詐的部分就像剛剛院長講的日新月異、技倆層出不窮，如果我們兩年都沒有更新，說實在的做這個網頁形同虛設。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請金管會特別注意。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的指正，這我們會馬上來處理。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，最近還有一個議題要請教一下院長，就是最近「新新併」台新金跟新光金合併的議題受到全國矚目，新光金大概10月11號也要召開臨時的股東會，請問一下院長，證券公司可以把客戶持股的資料給公司任意的使用嗎？也就是說營業員可以打電話給客戶要委託書嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得個資如果這樣使用的話，應該是不應該有的行為。"],["許委員宇甄：應該是不對的嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["許委員宇甄：我這邊就有一個實際的例子，我的助理就接到這樣的電話，因為他有新光金的股票，所以營業員打給他，問他可不可以把他的委託書給他。我覺得就像剛剛院長講的，個資可能就因為這樣洩漏出去，而且像這樣一個大型金控公司如果都自行利用證券公司的個資，那說實在的，我們現在打詐都不力了，如果公司居然還這樣做，請問院長，你覺得這個部分應該怎麼處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，這個案子我私底下再跟委員請教一下，我會請同仁去瞭解一下。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得這樣會讓我們一般的老百姓心生恐懼，我是透過一個正常的管道去投資，但是在證券公司開戶之後，居然我的個資可以用這樣的方式洩漏出去，那萬一洩漏到詐騙集團手上要怎麼辦？所以這個部分可能要麻煩一下。現在就像剛剛院長講的，我們通過詐欺犯罪危害防制條例等打詐四法之後，我們都希望能夠把詐騙能夠降到最低，但是現在的狀況看起來不是這樣，目前看到件數越來越多，也希望院長一定要請相關部會針對打詐的部分多多的宣傳。最後還要請教院長一個問題，就是我們在中秋的時候有收到各部會的一些禮品，有些部會是向弱勢團體採購，有些是會送臺灣的農產品。請問一下，左邊這個是日本進口的麝香葡萄，那您覺得我們應該是要買我們的農特產品，還是買日本的麝香葡萄？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然鼓勵大家對我們的農民多多支持。"],["許委員宇甄：對。其實您知道嗎？今年就有部會是買日本的葡萄去送給……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個必須請部會要檢討，對農民的支持還是應該就是……"],["許委員宇甄：國安局今年買的，就是送禮用的，是國安局。那為什麼國安局不買臺灣的水果？我們都在推廣農民的權益或是為農民發聲，希望這個部分，是不是請院長……"],["陳部長駿季：我想以後我們加強宣導。"],["卓院長榮泰：了解、了解。"],["許委員宇甄：這跟農業部無關，這是國安局的。謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許委員。","下一位我們請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137601_00004"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}