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原來租的房子就被土石流淹沒了 裡面還壓死了一位房客我們一家人都嚇壞了 因為如果晚個半年搬家 一家迎來了不是新家的喜訊 而是奪命的死神"},{"start":2228.846,"end":2256.261,"text":"說完這個故事我想對山陀爾、颱風來襲還在罵基隆為什麼要放假的民進黨人士還有不忘用基隆放假一次繼續炒作罷免的人說一句你們懂從小就在和土石流搏命的基隆人的苦嗎事實證明基隆不但在放假第一天就有大雨第二天更是陸續發生嚴重的災情"},{"start":2258.854,"end":2283.814,"text":"有些地方雨量甚至接近500毫米基隆多處大水淹街你知道為什麼謝國良要宣布放假了嗎因為人命最重要所以拜託罷糧的朋友不要再消費基隆人請不要消費基隆人 謝謝好 謝謝羅委員下一位我們請徐宇珍委員發言"},{"start":2303.872,"end":2322.069,"text":"主席 各位官員及各位媒體先進還有來訪的各位好朋友 大家早安 大家好中央政府20多年來已編列超過1兆1千億元的預算治水但治水成效在每次豪大雨過後都會受到民眾的質疑"},{"start":2322.628,"end":2349.773,"text":"此次山土耳颱風在臺灣南部滯留多天﹐高雄、臺南、屏東都已經連放4天假﹐高雄市許多行政區出現淹水的情形﹐還有民眾家中的屋頂被吹翻﹐車輛泡在水中超過15萬戶停電﹐20萬戶家庭無水可用﹐高雄美術館附近的豪宅區道路﹐更是重現7月楷米颱風來襲﹐被黃泥水淹沒的景象﹐"},{"start":2350.593,"end":2379.829,"text":"再次讓南部治水破工的問題復現山陀而颱風從南方登陸屏東、高雄、海南防颱準備不足導致淹水的情形再現尤其高雄大排再度的出現了議題的情況路面再次淹大水居民紛紛抱怨最近這兩次颱風來襲高雄市雨大而且大排的排水功能卻沒有發揮功能質疑許多大排也許有"},{"start":2380.512,"end":2380.812,"text":"：第11屆第3次會議"},{"start":2398.308,"end":2422.309,"text":"面對南臺灣防臺作為不足的問題賴清德總統卻是勢若無睹未知一詞甚至出言褒獎高雄市長陳其邁反觀在中央防災應變中心的大官們只顧著耍官徽批評指責花蓮縣長徐真衛基隆市長謝國良等在野執政的縣市首長"},{"start":2423.53,"end":2437.761,"text":"正經的防災會議忽然變成了政治批鬥大會利用天災搞鬥爭令人可恥賴清德總統性格易怒又情傷差經常無預警的暴怒藉由競免的這個典禮罵將軍"},{"start":2439.249,"end":2454.215,"text":"利用防臺會議罵在野執政的首長將治國當成小孩子辦家家酒想怎麼罵就怎麼罵完全沒有總統應有的格局臺灣是一個島國生態系統和人口密集的城市地區對"},{"start":2455.335,"end":2481.184,"text":"氣候變遷特別的敏感研究顯示臺灣總降雨量並沒有明顯的變化但降雨強度卻隨著全球暖化增加30%呼籲賴清德總統放下成見收斂自己的脾氣立即請行政院召開全國治水會議全面檢視全臺易淹水地區的治水情況重新審視全臺各地的"},{"start":2481.997,"end":2492.96,"text":"致水需求並由中央編列預算協助改善謝謝徐委員下一位請洪孟凱委員發言致詩"},{"start":2512.242,"end":2540.576,"text":"行政官員以及各位立院同仁山陀颱風在這幾天侵襲全台尤其是南部地區我們看到媒體的畫面觸目驚心身為高雄女婿的孟凱在這邊也利用國事論壇我們再一次為南部地區的所有民眾加油打氣我們希望競速能夠恢復到正常的生活天佑南台天佑中華民國而"},{"start":2541.516,"end":2567.414,"text":"今天國事論壇我們更希望能夠探討的是關乎全台大家2350萬人生活的能源政策電價審議委員會拍板調漲電價不令人意外只針對工業用電來調漲民生用電動漲說也許可以降低人民對於漲價的反對聲浪但是我們又看到另外一手政府編列了千億元台幣的預算來補貼台電的虧損"},{"start":2569.796,"end":2590.905,"text":"所以依舊是從人民口袋裡面拿錢來照顧台電官員講是照顧名聲實際上是康人民的愷為錯誤的能源政策來買單台電強調這次的漲價是財務考量但是過去財務的結構我們一而再再而三的講政府規劃30、50、20"},{"start":2594.846,"end":2621.254,"text":"50的天然氣燃煤的3成以及20的再生能源這火力發電佔了8成不但不符合淨零碳排的國際趨勢更是導致了台電虧損的主要原因不是嗎也因此2022年烏鴉戰爭開始國際的燃氣燃煤石油的價格來到最高點但是兩年多過去了價格早就已經回復到戰前時候的價格怎麼電價反而會越漲越高"},{"start":2622.074,"end":2643.593,"text":"成本上升的時候說要漲價成本下跌的時候怎麼沒有說要減價說穿了民進黨政府主張一直在補破網拿東牆補西牆拿了米爾納稅前未錯誤的能源政策來買單卻不見任何的反省跟檢討這種囂張傲慢的態度才是讓國人無法接受的主要原因"},{"start":2644.943,"end":2660.582,"text":"媒體報導救命的比不上賣煙的意思就是醫療行業的電價要漲但是煙草製造業反而不用引起社會嘩然不到一天急速調整原來電價審議委員會也不過就是民進黨政府的擋箭牌"},{"start":2661.303,"end":2666.447,"text":"要改要變要斷獨斷獨行醫療行業當然應該補貼但國人更要問虧損了4000多億產業電價漲了14%中央再補貼2000億台電補貼補貨網越補越大動沒人負責全民買單這就是信賴台灣嗎"},{"start":2683.519,"end":2705.297,"text":"先檢討要調整顧名聲這是我們給民進黨政府最後忠告我們要求不要死抱錯誤意識能源政策而脫...謝謝洪委員下一位請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":2715.427,"end":2739.926,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員以及在場的媒體朋友大家早安首先我們今天從南部離開家門都還發現許許多多的馬路堆滿了比如說鐵皮還有樹枝等等所以本席在這邊首先要感謝我們辛苦的清潔人員臺電人員以及國軍也希望在這邊請求我們的行政官員能夠從寬任列我們農業以及漁業的損害"},{"start":2743.849,"end":2766.378,"text":"但今天希望在這邊也可以提醒大家關心另外一個族群也就是醫護人員醫事人員縱使這幾天颱風時政府宣布停班停課但不管災情再慘醫療機構都還是必須維持緊急且必要的量能確保急診還有手術室緊急的手術能夠進行"},{"start":2767.839,"end":2795.718,"text":"所以大家知道許多我們醫院裡面的維生系統是必須24小時的運作手術室要維持在低溫所以必須常保空調來降低我們術後的感染率這是因為堅守職責的醫事人員心中都有同樣的信念這是我們自己的天職在颱風中可以多淋一點雨就為了這幾天醫治的國人少受一點苦"},{"start":2796.599,"end":2813.913,"text":"我要提醒現在坐在議場內的閣員們近日有兩項比颱風更大的衝擊會嚴重影響我們的醫療院所那就是對醫院的電費補貼未來將不再被政府支持再來是下半年電價的調漲被電價審議委員會決議漲14%漲幅超過百公百業的平均數也有剛剛洪委員所提到的菸草業"},{"start":2826.483,"end":2840.892,"text":"尤其電費的審議制度本身有嚴重的正當性不足缺陷當中各代表不僅沒有衛福部民間團體包含了工商消費者代表卻獨露了衛福以及醫視界"},{"start":2842.513,"end":2861.457,"text":"這是政府政策行政中的不公不義請大家別忘了今年7月的風災才有醫事人員因為執勤在颱風天中出勤導致交通事故不幸往生所以請在場的官員們請聽民意本席要求電駕審議機制也應該最快來調整"},{"start":2864.898,"end":2876.929,"text":"上週有許多委員質詢都顯示政府對於明年是否可以達到健保點值0.95有跳票的風險已經帶給我們基層醫療品質嚴峻的考驗如果電價再暴漲會讓經營者更困難病患的負擔也會更加沉重還請這邊懸崖勒馬"},{"start":2888.619,"end":2889.18,"text":"謝謝陳委員下一位請林黛樺委員發言"},{"start":2912.8,"end":2929.142,"text":"這幾天大家都辛苦了尤其是高雄屏東整個南台灣更是首當其衝面對山頭而颱風的第一線戴華認為高雄市的颱風降前期是為了防範蔚藍"},{"start":2930.203,"end":2947.691,"text":"保護市民而現在是災後重建整理家園的關鍵時刻這幾天戴華和團隊與陳其邁市長高雄市政府的同仁都和高雄市民站在一塊深深體會到災防應變的重要"},{"start":2948.331,"end":2959.942,"text":"若沒有預算﹖各級政府就無法做好各項災救的工作而114年總預算攸關救災項目的新增預算有治水預算159億災防預算76.9億"},{"start":2964.466,"end":2987.294,"text":"災害準備金50億第二預備金80億戴華認為面對天災各種政治算計都是沒有意義的部分黨派都應該以蒼生為念期待今天的總預算能夠順利復為有關三駝而颱風本期組裝請行政院納采第一高雄市在兩個月內連續遭逢"},{"start":2989.815,"end":2997.281,"text":"凱米颱風及山頭兒颱風兩度肆虐 中央應全力協助高雄市的災後重建工作"},{"start":2998.151,"end":3018.483,"text":"第2行政院立即啟動優於楷米颱風災後補助及低利貸款的項目協助山陀而颱風的受災部來重建家園比如一全額免息提供50萬元以下購買家具電器填卷門屋頂門窗等"},{"start":3022.656,"end":3044.617,"text":"．第2提高製造業跟服務業業者的災損補助及再降低貸款利率．第3重寬重塑全品向認列龍魚業災損補助．在此希望颱風災害減到最少．重建工作加速加倍進行．我們同島一命為台灣祈福"},{"start":3047.907,"end":3048.812,"text":"謝謝您委員下一位請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":3074.104,"end":3075.545,"text":"國土計劃法之亂中央怠惰溝通失靈原定在明年4月30號的國土計劃法最近"},{"start":3091.98,"end":3118.746,"text":"遭到跨黨派的立委和地方政府強烈的反應紛紛要求展言同時我在總質詢的時候卓院長也說如果以目前的狀況要來執行是有困難的所以因此我要說就事論事國土計劃法通過將近10年明定在明年4月份將要上路但是到目前為止執法的配備不足中央跟地方的步調更不一"},{"start":3119.346,"end":3142.043,"text":"相關的部會之間缺乏了協調的一個整合產業照顧跟城鄉發展的施領等這些問題並且還有9個縣市尚未繳交所謂的國土工人分區圖那是否應該展言我奉請民進黨政府應該要嚴肅的來思考如果民進黨政府明知道政府恨跟農民"},{"start":3142.984,"end":3164.199,"text":"那麼地方政府跟農民對於國土計劃法的實施有很多的疑慮為什麼過去3年並不加強整個的溝通跟協調也不加速的去認定相關的執法事實上我們可以知道相關的報導在今年的9月份的時候呢行政院曾經召開過兩次的跨部會討論當時農業部代表堅定的表示"},{"start":3168.442,"end":3190.353,"text":"百分之九十九的地方區農會都反對國土法顯而易見的在整個國土法不能如期上路中央政府要負起主要的責任主管機關若不是袋鼓指手就是根本沒有去體察到問題的嚴重性那麼當然民進黨立委也強調沒有繳交國土工人分圖的九個縣市沒有一個是民進黨"},{"start":3195.976,"end":3224.853,"text":"那地方政府要負起責任這樣子的說法有功歸於中央有過就是嫁禍給地方的心態如果在如此的作為相信暴露民進黨整個政府的行政帶路跟溝通失靈所以我要特別請行政院必須要三思同時我也必須說在9月30號審議電價委員會通過之後本期也立即提出"},{"start":3225.633,"end":3254.633,"text":"針對於醫院：以及旅宿業者：大眾運輸：如果你在這現階段再提再漲電價：會衝擊到整個民眾的一個權益所以我在這邊還是要奉請民進黨政府你必須要針對於我們整個的能源政策能源配比做一個整體性的一個完整的檢討告訴民眾你未來會不會再只有一手公務預算的撥補"},{"start":3256.034,"end":3257.377,"text":"當人民式提款機謝謝楊委員下一位請陳冠廷委員發言"},{"start":3275.66,"end":3302.667,"text":"各位國人同胞早首先我先要感謝在颱風第一線執勤的我們的所有的軍警義校那對於嘉義的鄉親如果因為颱風所造成的不管是農業損失還是其他的災害我們是希望未來相關的部會能夠重塑重寬認戀那今天的國事論壇除了颱風之外我想要特別針對兩個主題那跟我國的基礎建設基礎設施是有關係的"},{"start":3304.601,"end":3329.011,"text":"臺風過後大雨會讓這個河流水量暴增那當然自來水廠會加一些更多的濾來去過濾水池那水公司也會提醒民眾要取自來水之後先煮沸之後再來飲用那特別是在災情之後但是在我們許多嘉峪山區的縣民他們有這種煩惱為什麼因為他們現在還沒有自來水可以使用"},{"start":3329.831,"end":3347.049,"text":"這個原因是在於沒有自來水地區的供水改善計畫各縣市的無自來水沿管的申請案水利署不會還是以每戶工程成本不超過60萬元為審查標準只要超過60萬元那經濟部水利署就不會同意"},{"start":3347.657,"end":3369.565,"text":"那許多嘉義山區的申請用戶都是地區偏遠還有戶數密數低那如果他們要申請自來水鹽管每戶工程的成本都是100多萬元超過60萬元的標準這樣的話這些案子通常都會駁回那我必須要強調從我們賴總統上任至今有一個非常重要的一個主要的主軸那就是均衡台灣"},{"start":3370.928,"end":3397.082,"text":"這個不是個案 也不是嘉義縣獨有是全國山區偏鄉都可能有的問題我們希望經濟部能夠來訂立另外一個專案專門來處理山區跟偏遠地區的自來水鹽管的問題水是人民的基本人權我們當然是重視產業發展但是我們不希望說我們山區的民眾看得到水卻沒有辦法使用自來水那這個部分我會要求我們經濟部在全力的協助"},{"start":3397.984,"end":3416.201,"text":"那第二個部分我想最近大家都知道在中東的局勢那不斷的在升高但是以色列他們由於公民的忍見應對那其實在上一次伊朗所發射的180多枚飛彈上他們沒有 迄今沒有知道有什麼重大的傷亡的案例"},{"start":3417.438,"end":3445.926,"text":"這是因為早在2016年在以色列就已經由以色列後方司令部開發這個相關的應用程式他可以根據本身的位置計算到安全處所的時間還可以整理好所有全域的保護區域室內的保護空間還有其他危險物質的事件行為的指引那我必須強調我們當我們談到名利當我們談到民訪的時候其實在以色列所面對周遭"},{"start":3446.466,"end":3448.729,"text":"謝謝陳委員登記國事論壇發言的委員均已發言完畢現在休息"},{"start":5502.967,"end":5528.173,"text":"我們請祕書長報告出席人數報告院會出席委員76人已足法定人數發言會現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是KMT桃園市客委會的朋友我們在此表示歡迎他們的參訪"},{"start":5534.691,"end":5562.095,"text":"現在開會因程旭委員會以本次會議議事日程草案送院會處理現有黨團依本院議事成立對本次會議議事日程草案提出異議現在進行處理並截止收案先進行報告事項等請議事人員宣讀黨團提案之內容"},{"start":5563.001,"end":5582.508,"text":"本院臺灣民眾黨黨團 針對第11屆第2會期第3次會議議程報告事項提議報告事項僅限列議事程草案所列報告事項 質詢事項對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢及增列效表18案如下列表事項有當進行公決"},{"start":5583.948,"end":5599.062,"text":"委員．民進黨黨團．針對立法院．第11屆第2會期．第3次會議（議事日程．報告事項．請增列行政院函行審議．一百十四年度中央政府總預算案．和附屬單位預算及綜計表．營業及分顏部分．"},{"start":5599.602,"end":5627.739,"text":"及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計劃第5期特別預算案案﹐其餘照議事日程草案所列報告事項﹐執行事項﹐對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢﹐是否有當進行公決北院國民黨黨團﹐針對第11屆第2會期第3次會議﹐議事日程報告事項﹐僅限列原列議程草案報告事項﹐及增列報告事項如下表﹐其餘照議事日程草案所列質詢事項﹐"},{"start":5629,"end":5645.204,"text":"對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢通過是否有當進行公決宣禮完畢報告院會一先後處理各黨團提議先處理臺灣民眾黨黨團僅限列之提議另外國民黨黨團之提議與該黨團提議相同向院會說明請問院會對臺灣民眾黨黨團提議通過有無異議"},{"start":5658.584,"end":5660.771,"text":"有異議進行表決按鈴7分鐘並分發表決卡"},{"start":5726.51,"end":5744.881,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5929.643,"end":5947.735,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":5955.279,"end":5957.204,"text":"掌聲鼓鼓鼓勵鼓鼓鼓鼓勵"},{"start":6069.107,"end":6070.208,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6096.257,"end":6111.849,"text":"好報告院會我們請各位委員準備表決也請議事人員協助確認表決卡還有表決器也請各位委員麻煩確認一下你的表決卡還有表決器有沒有問題"},{"start":6114.909,"end":6118.59,"text":"好,如果都沒有問題,我們針對臺灣民眾黨黨團提議現有民進黨黨團、臺灣民眾黨黨團要求記名表決記名表決時間一分鐘,現在開始"},{"start":6218.277,"end":6227.665,"text":"報告院會表決結果出席106人贊成56人反對50人棄權0人贊成者多數台灣民眾黨黨團提議照案通過報告院會"},{"start":6244.011,"end":6258.926,"text":"因應匯方才通過臺灣民眾黨黨團僅限列之提議因此其他黨團的提議就不再處理列入公報紀錄本次會議亦失入日程報告事項質詢事項"},{"start":6261.289,"end":6266.593,"text":"對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢：照台灣民眾黨黨團之提議通過另外國民黨黨團之提議與該黨團提議相同向院會說明"},{"start":6277.008,"end":6305.054,"text":"報告委員會繼續處理討論事項部分現在處理台灣民眾黨黨團爭略討論事項提議共議案令國民黨黨團提議爭略之討論事項與台灣民眾黨黨團爭略討論事項中之第三案相同所以就一併處理請議事人員一併宣讀提案內容"},{"start":6306.294,"end":6320.112,"text":"本院臺灣民眾黨黨團 針對第11屆第2會期第3次會議一事成草案提議增列討論事項三案如下列表是否有當進行公決本院國民大黨團 針對本院民進黨黨團"},{"start":6322.775,"end":6337.085,"text":"針對：第11屆第1會期第22次會議報告事項：第17案委員：翁曉琳等17人理據信法訴訟法對四條台灣修正草案：第19案：台灣民眾黨黨團理據融資公司法草案：第33案"},{"start":6338.346,"end":6355.528,"text":"委員陳永康的26年離去﹐國際安全障礙法草案約會所宣誓決定提出復議﹐是否由動請公決案提請在列為本第3次會議討論事項以案順序涉全議事數排列﹐是否由動進行公決宣讀完畢"},{"start":6361.274,"end":6378.281,"text":"好我們宣讀完畢請我們的委員是不是能夠就位回到位置我們請各位委員就位我們要處理討論事項請問院會對台灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團之提議有無異議有異議我們進行表決"},{"start":6393.888,"end":6414.663,"text":"有沒有異議沒有異議剛剛聽到有再確認有無異議沒有異議無異議本提議照案通過本次會議議事日程討論事項照台灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團提議通過本次會議議事日程確定"},{"start":6427.188,"end":6434.019,"text":"發言委員現在進行報告事項請秘書長宣讀第二會期第二次會議意思錄"},{"start":6435.788,"end":6444.692,"text":"宣讀立法案第11屆第2會期第2次會議．事由．時間中華民國113年9月27日上午9時至9時17分時時至10時24分下午2時30分至5時22分10月1日上午9時1分至10時25分下午2時30分至5時17分地點本院議場出席委員陳委員昭志等112人請教委員林委員帶話出席委員列席官員"},{"start":6465.751,"end":6485.882,"text":"行政院院長卓榮泰等40人主席院長韓國瑜副院長江啟臣報告事項第一案宣讀北院第11屆第2會期第一次會議事後決定確定第二、五至174179至183案均決定交互相關委員會審查或交互相關委員會第三案決定進戶報讀並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商"},{"start":6495.765,"end":6518.96,"text":"第4案決定競合組與相關提案並且協商第175至178均決定並114年度中央政府總議算案處理第184案委員事處所提示報告案執行事項本院委員執行部份9件對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢決定下次會議繼續進行施政報告之執行討論事項第一案決議"},{"start":6526.085,"end":6533.149,"text":"令定其處理其他事項國民黨黨團提出會議詢問一案宣讀完畢"},{"start":6546.372,"end":6575.718,"text":"發言委員：針對第二會期第二次會議．事由．並無委員．或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處做以下之決定第二會期第二次會議．事由．確定發言委員．陳委員超明聲明對剛才表決與國民黨黨團意見一致列入公報紀錄發言委員．現在處理增列部分"},{"start":6576.882,"end":6577.683,"text":"請宣讀第一案"},{"start":6590.134,"end":6591.776,"text":"請問院會有無異議．無異議通過請問院會有無異議．無異議通過"},{"start":6608.888,"end":6638.354,"text":"第3案 本院委員邱若驊的實際人力巨兒童青少年福利與權益保障法第23條及第31條之一條文修正財務請審議案議事處意見 您請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢無異議通過第4案 本院委員邱若驊的實際人力巨兒童青少年福利與權益保障法第33條之一條文修正財務請審議案議事處意見 您請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6639.056,"end":6640.617,"text":"五議通過五議通過五議通過"},{"start":6668.988,"end":6669.328,"text":"無異議通過無異議通過"},{"start":6682.472,"end":6703.909,"text":"第8案 本院委員翁曉琳等16人居信法訴訟法第95條條維修正常情緒一案 依次促進議請會長司法及法律委員會審查 宣讀完畢無異議通過第9案 本院委員陳少明等16人居就業服務法第46條條維修正常情緒一案 依次促進議請會長社會福利及生活經營委員會審查 宣讀完畢無異議通過"},{"start":6707.632,"end":6731.01,"text":"第12本會議員鄭天宅等16人鄰居﹐動物保護房第二條及第10條條務修正草案請水一二﹐依次促進您請回交經濟委員會審查﹐宣讀完畢無異通過第11案本會議員鄭天宅等18人鄰居﹐不依依職保存條例草案請水一二﹐依次促進您請回交教育及文化委員會審查﹐宣讀完畢無異通過"},{"start":6731.755,"end":6754.594,"text":"第12案 本院臺灣民眾腦腦團理局住宅法部份條文修正草案請水移案 議事處意見 您請回交內政委員會審查 宣讀完畢無異議通過第13案 本院臺灣民眾腦腦團理局醫學工程師法草案請水移案 議事處意見 您請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢無異議通過"},{"start":6755.254,"end":6778.166,"text":"第14案 本院臺灣民眾黨老團領據遺傳諮詢施法草案請選一案 議事處意見 您請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員或審查 宣討完畢議議通過第15案 本院臺灣民眾黨老團領據全民健康保險法第一條條文修正草案請選一案 議事處意見 您請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員或審查 宣討完畢"},{"start":6778.846,"end":6779.146,"text":"無異議通過無異議通過"},{"start":6792.043,"end":6792.484,"text":"無異議通過發言委員"},{"start":6818.717,"end":6822.518,"text":"本次會議報告事項記載於議事錄順序授權議事處調整現在繼續處理原列報告事項請宣讀第二案請務院會有異議無異議通過"},{"start":6845.216,"end":6868.819,"text":"第3案 本院委員陳提菲等16人居所得稅法第5條第5條之一及第14條條文修正常請水一案依釋書意見禮儆匯交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢委員通過第4案 本院委員陳提菲等16人居民法第1項085條條文修正常請水一案依釋書意見禮儆匯交司法及法政委員會審查 宣讀完畢委員通過"},{"start":6870.353,"end":6896.608,"text":"第5案 本院委員陳廷輝等19人離聚 老年農民福利階階鑽石條例第4條條文修正草原清水一案 議事處意見 議請回交社會福利及衛生環境經濟內政三務委員會審查 宣讀完畢 委員通過第6案 本院委員陳冠廷等23人離聚 豐稅條例第12條條文修正草原清水一案 議事處意見 議請回交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢 委員通過"},{"start":6897.369,"end":6924.054,"text":"第7案 本會議員另一屆的27人聯聚﹐不應移植保存條例藏情水疑案﹐依稀處意見 另請會交交通司法及法治兩院會審查﹐宣讀完畢無異議通過第8案 本會議員另一屆的27人聯聚﹐國營台灣鐵路股份有限公司稅市條例第10條及第23條維修正常情水疑案﹐依稀處意見 另請會交交通司法及法治兩院會審查﹐宣讀完畢無異議通過"},{"start":6924.878,"end":6951.171,"text":"第9案 本院委員李盈瑾的27年離聚 威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正才會進水一案 議事處意見李瑾會將司法及法治委員會審查 宣討完畢報事項第9案 現有民進黨黨團提議改交內政委員會審查 請務院會有異議無異議通過 本案改交內政委員會審查"},{"start":6952.671,"end":6952.731,"text":"委員通過"},{"start":6964.554,"end":6973.437,"text":"第11案本院委員李月琴等16人聯聚安寧緩和醫療條例第7條條文修政策精選一案依稀處議件依稀處議件依稀處議件依稀處議件"},{"start":6989.361,"end":6990.322,"text":"無異議通過無異議通過無異議通過"},{"start":7012.722,"end":7036.744,"text":"第15案 培育委員柯志恩的二十四年年居技術及職業教育法第25條條無休政策請選一案 議事處意見立即會教教育及文化委員會審查 宣布完畢無異議通過第16案 培育委員柯志恩的二十四年年居十四培育法第7條條無休政策請選一案 議事處意見立即會教教育及文化委員會審查 宣布完畢無異議通過"},{"start":7037.83,"end":7038.05,"text":"無異議通過"},{"start":7051.482,"end":7067.738,"text":"第18案 本會議員柯貞恩的23任理據 發展大眾運輸條例第4條之一條無修正草原清水一案 依視處意見 禮請回交交通委員會審查 宣讀完畢第19案 本會議員賴士寶的28任理據 輿道稅法第2條第5條及第10條條無修正草原清水一案 依視處意見 禮請回交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":7075.746,"end":7076.126,"text":"無異議通過無異議通過無異議通過"},{"start":7101.363,"end":7102.303,"text":"無異議通過無異議通過無異議通過"},{"start":7125.274,"end":7141.988,"text":"第24案 本院委員何欣淳﹖18日離聚公立學校教職員﹖個人專護制﹖退休自檢復續條例第12條﹖第18條及第33條條無修正草案請審議案一系列署議件﹖立行會教育司法及法制﹖教育及文化聯盟委員會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":7142.668,"end":7142.928,"text":"無異議通過無異議通過"},{"start":7160.1,"end":7185.744,"text":"第26案 本會員和新選的16人均兒童青少年福利與全業保障法第8條條文修正草案請審議案 議事處意見 理性會教育社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢 委員通過第27案 本會員和新選的16人均兒童多育服務法草案請審議案 議事處意見 理性會教育社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢 委員通過"},{"start":7186.345,"end":7197.253,"text":"第28案本院務員范雲等21人聯聚數位新聞發展與民主任性反殘侵水案一系處一間離巡會交通交易及文化聯務委員會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":7197.861,"end":7198.401,"text":"無異議通過無異議通過無異議通過"},{"start":7223.632,"end":7224.273,"text":"委員．第32委員．第32委員．"},{"start":7248.394,"end":7249.114,"text":"第33案．第34案．第34案．"},{"start":7275.134,"end":7301.491,"text":"第35案 本院委員嚴範恒的16人聯聚 勞動計準法第50條條文修正草菁水案 依次出現 您請回交 社會福利 行政環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢無異議通過第36案 本院委員嚴範恒的16人聯聚 兒童接少年福利與權益保障法 增年率計條之一條文草菁水案 依次出現 您請回交 社會福利 行政環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢無異議通過"},{"start":7302.231,"end":7315.566,"text":"第37案 本院委員嚴判和26人的鄰居 兒童青少年福利與權益保障法 第33條 之二條文修正常勤選一案 依次主席 您請獲交社會福利金融上環境委員會審查 宣傳完畢"},{"start":7317.196,"end":7325.762,"text":"第38 本院委員嚴範恒等17任理據 醫療法第24條及106條條無修正常請選一案 議事處意見 理事處意見 理事處意見 理事處意見 理事處意見 理事處意見 理事處意見 理事處意見 理事處意見 理事處意見 理事處意見 理事處意見"},{"start":7344.434,"end":7345.015,"text":"第41屆第42屆第43屆第44屆第45屆宣讀完畢"},{"start":7370.738,"end":7396.226,"text":"第42案 本院委員學信營等29人聯聚 教育經費編列與管理法第3條條文修正常請審議案 議事處見 您請回交交給文化委員會審查 宣讀完畢第43案 本院委員學信營等24人聯聚 公共電視法第11條條文修正常請審議案 議事處見 您請回交交給文化委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":7397.279,"end":7398.62,"text":"無異議通過無異議通過無異議通過"},{"start":7426.102,"end":7439.754,"text":"報告事項第45案現有國民黨黨團提議競付二讀與相關提案並且商請問院會有無異議無異議本案競付二讀與相關提案並且商"},{"start":7440.936,"end":7464.617,"text":"第46案 本院委員羅志強的水球人鄰居保健房增淀第174條主要集體174條之三條問草原清水一案依系處意見依請回交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢無異議通過第47案 本院委員林思明的18人鄰居受訪法部分條文修正草原清水一案依系處意見依請回交內政委員會審查 宣讀完畢無異議通過"},{"start":7466.198,"end":7494.167,"text":"第48屆本月204明的16日的一句中華民國刑法部份條文修正草情水疑案一系列處理件你請回交司法及法律委員會審查宣讀完畢無異動過第49案外交部橫送我國與史瓦迪尼王國簽署之中華民國臺灣政府與史瓦迪尼王國政府代謝性、問性並防事體系強化計劃設定中英維銀本一系列處理件你請回交外交及國防委員會宣讀完畢"},{"start":7495.424,"end":7497.846,"text":"本案台灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查交經紀委員會審查"},{"start":7515.066,"end":7524.912,"text":"第51案 農業部海關修正原洋漁業條例第13條定向第18會與第19會第2目非法務役報告及不受規範漁撈作業與船名單依次協議屆行會交經濟委員會宣讀完畢"},{"start":7530.751,"end":7554.143,"text":"第52案 農業部還會修正公告美國愛荷華州自公運病原性加性流血性感冒肺疫區刪除 議事處意見 您請回交經濟委員會 宣讀完畢無異議通過第53案 農業部還送農業部農田水利署新組管理處 農田水利事業區域內灌溉制度 議事處意見 您請回交經濟委員會 宣讀完畢無異議通過"},{"start":7555.185,"end":7555.345,"text":"無異議通過"},{"start":7566.892,"end":7592.811,"text":"第55議員 農業部海外修正 農業機械設備 太修換新溫室系體解料整理辦法 議事處意見 您請回交經濟委員會 宣讀完畢五議通過第56議員 農業部海外行政院農業委員會 農田水利署 高雄管理處 農田水利事業區域 名稱修正為 農業部農田水利署 高雄管理處 農田水利事業區域 並修正事業區域 議事處意見 您請回交經濟委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":7595.012,"end":7595.252,"text":"違議通過違議通過"},{"start":7614.98,"end":7629.317,"text":"第50方案 農業部海灣行政院農業委員會 農田水利署桃園管理處 農田水利事業區域 名稱修正為 農業部農田水利署桃園管理處 農田水利事業區域 並修正事業區域 議事處一屆理政委員會 加入經濟委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":7632.065,"end":7633.265,"text":"五議通過五議通過五議通過"},{"start":7661.857,"end":7662.277,"text":"委員通告委員通告"},{"start":7682.352,"end":7703.669,"text":"第62 財政部還會修正免稅商店施設管理辦法部分條文﹐依稀數一件﹐您請回交財政委員會﹐宣讀完畢無異議通過第63 中央銀行還會修正﹐中央銀行對金融機構辦理不動產抵押貸款業務規定第4點及第11點規定﹐依稀數一件﹐您請回交財政委員會﹐宣讀完畢無異議通過"},{"start":7704.79,"end":7727.378,"text":"第64案 中央銀行海外修正 中央銀行出入規程部分條文 依系處意見 依請回交司法及法制 財政兩委員會 宣讀完畢第65案 教育部海外修正 海外留學地情況契約 應記載及不得記載事項 應記載事項第7年規定 依系處意見 依請回交教育及文化委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":7729.222,"end":7736.171,"text":"第66案﹐文化部海文修正水下文化資產水營會組織辦訪﹐一系主席﹐林行輝教育教育局網紅委員會﹐宣傳完畢"},{"start":7738.959,"end":7768.414,"text":"第67案 交通部海外修正 汽車委託檢驗實施辦法第10條條文 依系處意見 引起環交交通委員會 宣讀完畢委員 通過第68案 交通部海外日月潭國家風景特定區管理處 管有設施禁止從市垂吊市場名稱修正委 日月潭國家風景區管理處 管有設施禁止從市垂吊市場並修正地鐵規定 依系處意見 引起環交交通委員會 宣讀完畢委員 通過"},{"start":7769.076,"end":7785.206,"text":"第69案 秋冬木海委採用國際海事組織 第33次當會 採納A.118533決議之﹐2023年港華國管制程序案 程序一致出意見 禮請回交交通委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":7786.96,"end":7786.98,"text":"無異黨國"},{"start":7809.963,"end":7810.163,"text":"無異議通過"},{"start":7824.229,"end":7824.429,"text":"無異議通過"},{"start":7844.688,"end":7848.749,"text":"無異議通過本案國民黨黨團提議改交審查交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下一案"},{"start":7874.485,"end":7902.114,"text":"第75案 勞動部行為修正優先為零化學品質決定及運作管理辦法一系列處理前年輕會教 社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣言完畢本案國民黨黨團提議改交審查交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下一案第70條案 勞動部行為修正簽證讀預防規則部分條文一系列處理前年輕會教 社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣言完畢無異議通過"},{"start":7903.038,"end":7906.139,"text":"本案國民黨黨團提議改交審查交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查法案第78案"},{"start":7930.768,"end":7956.54,"text":"第157案請依序宣讀其中第78、85、86、88、89、93114、127案臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查宣讀後以上提案均改交相關委員會審查其餘議案均照議事處意見通過請問院會有無異議"},{"start":7960.057,"end":7961.502,"text":"無疑宣讀後通過請宣讀"},{"start":7963.035,"end":7991.796,"text":"第78岸交易部．第79岸僑務委員會．第80岸之第82岸國防部．第84岸及第84岸國軍退出官兵輔導委員會．第85岸之第93岸經濟部．第94岸之第106岸農業部．第107岸之第110岸司法院．第11岸及第112岸詮釋部．第113岸行政院人事形成總署．第114岸之第135岸勞動部．第136岸之第154岸衛生福利部．"},{"start":7992.456,"end":7992.756,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":8007.864,"end":8022.091,"text":"第158案以下請一併宣讀宣讀後除第161及162案同意展延審查期限外其餘個案均準予備查請宣讀"},{"start":8022.984,"end":8041.13,"text":"第1582為本院財政內政經濟教育及文化交通社會福利協會省環境委員會函委員會將負責整合處理從小政府結算基礎建設計劃第三期特別預算決議等案均已於預算執行期間第1592為本院財政內政外交及國防"},{"start":8042.171,"end":8060.568,"text":"經濟教育及文化交通司法及法制﹐稱為補給衛生環境委會函委員會將會審查中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告﹐還封鎖單位決算及綜計表等案因應於收納後一年內﹐完成審議之期限原依決算法第28條是同審議通過"},{"start":8062.31,"end":8077.445,"text":"第1160案為本院財政內政國家及國防經濟教育及文化交通司法及法治社會福利及衛生環境委會函為運匯交付處理中華民國111年度中央政務組人算半年結算報告及轉合報告案"},{"start":8078.126,"end":8104.864,"text":"因已送達超過一年以上原依決算法第28條提報院會第161案及第162案為本院司法及法制委會函為院會交付審查相關行政命令均也於立法院及學習司法第61條鎖定審查期限質詢事項本院委員質詢部分本院黃委員建兵等向行政院提出質詢共三屆宣讀完畢"},{"start":8109.162,"end":8123.409,"text":"現在進行討論事項第一案本院台灣民眾黨黨團針對考試院人事同意權案提出審查實成請供決案請議事人員宣讀提案內容"},{"start":8124.335,"end":8147.334,"text":"本院臺灣民眾黨黨團 針對總統自行本院行使考試院第14屆院長副院長及考試院被提名人同意全案提出審查時程如下一 定於10月14日星期一舉行考試院第14屆院長副院長及考試院被提名人同意全案公聽會由各黨團推卷學者專家代表親人參加"},{"start":8148.255,"end":8160.343,"text":"議政黨比例由國民黨黨團推薦3人﹐民進黨黨團推薦3人﹐臺灣民眾黨黨團推薦1人﹐各黨團審查選組委員﹐依依勝訴比例推派委員組成﹐選審專家級審查選組委員名單﹐請於10月8號"},{"start":8164.906,"end":8171.411,"text":"8日星期二 中午十二時前 宋嬌議事處會診 與其視同放棄2."},{"start":8171.411,"end":8189.924,"text":"10月16日 星期三 17日 星期四 21日 星期一 召開全院委員會並合併委一次會10月16日 星期三 上午 審查院長被提名人 周鴻燕 同意全案10月16日 星期三 下午 審查副院長被提名人 許舒祥 同意全案"},{"start":8190.704,"end":8207.266,"text":"10月17日星期四﹐選擇考試委員﹐被提名人﹐邱維艷﹐鄧家基﹐黃秀紅﹐呂秋慧﹐同意全案10月21日星期一﹐選擇考試委員﹐被提名人﹐柯麗玲﹐黃東毅﹐依萬娜薇﹐同意全案"},{"start":8208.788,"end":8227.438,"text":"3.10月16日 上下午﹐各有5位委員進行巡檔﹐一政黨北立由國民黨黨團推派2人﹐民進黨黨團推派2人﹐臺灣民眾黨黨團推派1人﹐代表進行﹐各黨團推派名單﹐請於10月14日 中午12時前﹐送交議事處會證﹐與此適同放棄"},{"start":8231.4,"end":8250.313,"text":"詢問及答方式進行每位委員詢答時間為30分鐘並得採聯合詢問當其人數不得超過2人詢答順序依例授權議事處辦理10月17日星期四及10月21日星期一每位被提名人各由3位委員進行詢答"},{"start":8251.053,"end":8272.151,"text":"依政黨比例由國民黨黨團推派一人﹐民進黨黨團推派一人﹐臺灣民眾黨黨團推派一人﹐代表進行﹐各黨團推派名單請於10月16日星期三 中午12時前﹐送交議事處會診﹐於時適同放棄﹐詢答在急問急答方式進行﹐委員詢答時間為20分鐘﹐詢答順序依例授權議事處辦理"},{"start":8275.874,"end":8280.335,"text":"依照立法院職權行使法第8條第3項是規定本案經提案人說明提案子去大體討論後"},{"start":8300.748,"end":8328.587,"text":"及議決交付審查或禁負二讀或不予審查報告院會本案提案黨團並未推派委員說明就不說明現在進行大體討論未有委員登記就不發言現有台灣民眾黨黨團提議禁負二讀請問院會有異議無異議本案禁負二讀"},{"start":8330.08,"end":8339.149,"text":"法院會依據立法院職權行使法第74條之一規定做以下之決議交付黨團協商由臺灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商討論事項第二案"},{"start":8347.762,"end":8375.013,"text":"本院民進黨黨團針對第11屆第二會期第一次會議報告事項第24案台灣民眾黨黨團擬拒國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第16條條文修正草案院會所作決定提出覆議請公決案本案經第二會期第二次會議決定令定期處理現在進行處理"},{"start":8378.988,"end":8393.135,"text":"本案未有委員登記就不發言現在針對民進黨黨團所提復議案進行表決現有民進黨黨團台灣民眾黨黨團要求記名表決記名表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":8411.076,"end":8413.718,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8435.947,"end":8458.422,"text":"響鐘響鐘響鐘"},{"start":8476.762,"end":8480.384,"text":"發言會表決結果出席107人贊成50人反對57人棄權0人"},{"start":8487.786,"end":8505.012,"text":"贊成者少數決議復議案不通過本案報告事項照原作決定通過討論事項第三案本院民進黨黨團針對第11屆第1會期第22次會議報告事項第17案"},{"start":8511.38,"end":8520.336,"text":"委員翁曉琳等擬拒憲法訴訟法第4條條文修正草案第19案台灣民眾黨黨團擬拒"},{"start":8523.12,"end":8549.91,"text":"融資公司法草案第33案委員陳永康等擬據國家安全戰略法草案院會所作決定提出復議請公決案本案今第一會期第22次會議決定令定期處理現在進行處理本案未有委員登記就不發言"},{"start":8553.337,"end":8557.398,"text":"現在針對民進黨黨團所提復議案進行表決現有民進黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團要求記名表決記名表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":8577.307,"end":8578.408,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8640.732,"end":8660.026,"text":"發言會表決結果出席107人、贊成50人、反對57人、棄權0人、贊成者少數決議不通過本案報告事項照原作決定通過"},{"start":8663.994,"end":8691.514,"text":"報告院會現在進行施政報告之質詢在進行質詢之前先請祕書長報告部會首長請假請醒報告院會行政院來函外交部林部長家榮本日下午3點40分起應公請假由田次長鐘光代表列席報告完畢現在請郭委員欲請質詢"},{"start":8714.414,"end":8720.378,"text":"主席好我有請行政院長我們請卓院長備選"},{"start":8734.762,"end":8753.406,"text":"國務院長早安這兩天全台灣都很辛苦因為我們的颱風剛剛其實我們已經都看到了明年度的總預算其中有很大的一個部分包含我們明年救災的新的預算治水有159億防災的部分有76.9億"},{"start":8757.227,"end":8759.089,"text":"我感到非常非常的遺憾"},{"start":8782.143,"end":8802.039,"text":"這兩天大家在家裡其實我們的心都跟所有受災的居民懸在一起從今天早上一直到剛剛為止我還透過行政院裡面的各位幕僚我們在安排今天晚上總諮詢結束的時間之後"},{"start":8804.178,"end":8833.333,"text":"我們要到哪個地方去看看最需要去了解的地方明後兩天也積極的可能往南下看看受災淹水或是入塌的地方具無非就是關心災情更重要的是如何復建但是我們現在剛剛這樣子非常遺憾的情況各地對我提出的明年要怎麼樣來做系統性治水"},{"start":8834.264,"end":8858.28,"text":"明年要怎麼樣來做交通設施的安全維護跟修建好像我只有一句話告訴他等我爭取立法院的預算再來答覆各位吧我覺得這是一個非常無奈的感覺剛剛直接就在他們藍白聯手等於他們不把明年度我們的中央總預算案列入"},{"start":8859.537,"end":8885.231,"text":"就是議程這是直接在這邊直接被卡關其實我們也感同身受因為這是很多的救命錢不過報告委員時間還是有的只要大院能夠緊述在未來的程序委員會讓他復委我們還是積極的努力在今年度裡面完成這個預算我們時間還是有的"},{"start":8886.027,"end":8911.936,"text":"所以我已經再度透過我們的秘書長跟韓國瑜院長也積極的要求今天晚上在這個情況底下我們不宜做任何坐下來吃飯的動作但是要積極的迅速的找一個時間我們來解開這個結我們看的是整體性全國性的預算而不是個別委員單選區的預算所以我們必須要極力力爭"},{"start":8913.226,"end":8913.246,"text":"國民寶寶凱凱"},{"start":8939.417,"end":8960.857,"text":"改改案我在上一個會期大概已經質詢了7次這次是第8次那為什麼會針對改改案在教育文化委員會當中質詢是因為在9月3號之前在副聯盟還沒有改歷史之前他的主管機關其中之一就是我們的教育部"},{"start":8962.096,"end":8991.136,"text":"那凱凱一個不到兩歲的孩子不到兩歲的孩子其實是最天真最可愛的我自己都是當媽媽的人我相信其實在座有很多的爸爸媽媽們都知道一歲多的孩子多麼可愛但我們非常的心疼在兒童聯盟轉介到流性保母姊妹的手上之後他的生命短短的在114天被凌虐身亡他的"},{"start":8991.926,"end":9019.62,"text":"年紀永遠停留在2023年那一個平安夜那從頭到尾兒福聯盟開過兩次的記者會第一次的記者會說在3月12號3月11號媒體爆出3月12號兒福聯盟開記者會說他們也是看了媒體才知道的這是多麼諷刺因為流行保姆就是在兒福聯盟所轉介的"},{"start":9021.237,"end":9025.142,"text":"3月27號 阿富汗聯盟開了第二次的記者會這第二次的記者會是不給媒體發問的記者會3月29號他提出了給教育部的"},{"start":9038.933,"end":9038.953,"text":"﹚檢討報告﹚"},{"start":9058.557,"end":9084.077,"text":"臺中購置的不動產剛好是九千七百多萬他們說這筆預算在報告書上面他們寫他將有決心繼續使用正當的募款來募這九千八百萬我看到這樣子的報告我是非常的憤怒我不曉得我剛剛這一連串下來院長您心裡做何感受"},{"start":9086.005,"end":9101.383,"text":"對任何的暴力事件尤其是針對兒少受虐的情形我們心裡的悲痛是更加的加劇的因為一個小生命的來臨他不知道為何而來他更不知道為何而走我們對他實在有太多太多的責任了"},{"start":9102.113,"end":9128.219,"text":"因此任何一個機關他竟然從事這樣的一個出洋的這個服務的業務他必須要有更多更多的關懷他事後的追蹤跟過程的照顧絕對不能如此的疏失那這個部分現在關於這個單位他的主管機關改立成衛福部我也希望衛福部能夠依照部裡面真正專業的監督"},{"start":9130.883,"end":9158.909,"text":"認真執行這個工作那不僅針對這一個團體希望對所有的兒少青少年的團體都要嚴加的跟他們做更好的溝通在這依法依情依理的情況底下來做好所有的照護當然改了隸屬是進步的第一步這個是我們一直從過去到現在我跟林玉琴委員我們一直在追這個案子那9月初他已經確定改了隸屬到我們的衛福部"},{"start":9160.285,"end":9168.944,"text":"政府部長 政府部長早安5月17號您還記得我在質詢的時候也針對阿富汗聯盟"},{"start":9170.427,"end":9186.919,"text":"向您做了一個質詢當初其實我就是用他在108年購置3.7億的這個不動產的部分我看到他的報表其實他這103.7億的部分其實他是分裂在108年的2.24億跟109年的提列的1.55億"},{"start":9192.322,"end":9203.844,"text":"為什麼他會這麼提列兩筆主要是因為他可以達到業務支出的六成就可以免稅連我不是學會計的人我都看到了"},{"start":9204.704,"end":9206.546,"text":"跟委員報告 我想這個案子"},{"start":9227.386,"end":9240.619,"text":"我們會再重新來檢討因為確實他在內控還有各方面的一些行政跟整個這個組織的運作他確實有這一個值得檢討的一個地方我想我們會在會後再"},{"start":9242.901,"end":9243.742,"text":"跟委員來做報告"},{"start":9268.419,"end":9268.579,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":9298.052,"end":9322.6,"text":"我想處分兒童﹚我們先處分他停止新收出養童那我們基本上支持因為他9月30號許可證這期所以我們這次只核發一年的許可證一般是三年能處分但是能處分不能新收出養童那另外在兒前法這個部分我們也會進步"},{"start":9324.423,"end":9353.859,"text":"正進行兒少全法的修法希望加強說出養每一個機構的管理力度以彌補現在法令的不足那當然我們會邀請本部也會邀請歐盟加強內外部的督導機制包括外部的督導還有加強人眼內部人眼的教育訓練強化對兒童內帶的辨識能力那我們也會邀請專家持續監督其改善情形以上"},{"start":9354.571,"end":9381.759,"text":"好我的重點是即使他是一個資產非常龐大的公益巨獸我們的良心跟我們的良知都不應該被吞噬所以凱凱案是全台灣人的痛我想我們站在這個地方我身為一個母親也身為一個公職人員其實我有義務再繼續把這個案子再關心下去也謝謝"},{"start":9383.42,"end":9387.043,"text":"教師荒 最近有很多的報導 除了報導 從教育現場的第一線也收到了很多相關的資訊"},{"start":9405.482,"end":9406.023,"text":"每年取得教師證"},{"start":9417.527,"end":9441.966,"text":"從2005年合發教師證當時應該算是最頂峰那個時候合發教師證的人數高達一萬八千多人但是到了2022年只剩下4906人但這4906人還有多少人是願意直接投入我們的校園當中擔任教職這個部分其實是一個非常大的問題"},{"start":9442.887,"end":9456.932,"text":"因為不穩定的師資影響的就是受教的學生那我們真的看到了有許多過去大家認為的鐵飯碗這個教職現在大家是連這個鐵飯碗都不想捧了"},{"start":9458.34,"end":9483.525,"text":"這個是很大的一個問題我們有沒有想過會是什麼樣的原因有沒有可能因為爛訴有沒有可能因為老師的管教權被相對的剝奪了有沒有可能因為行政減量變成一種口號在我們的教育政策不斷的推陳出新的狀況之下很多的老師他不是只有在教書他可能還要跑班"},{"start":9484.005,"end":9505.648,"text":"他可能課後還要關心學生還要跟家長溝通他甚至還要被教父因為多元教學他還要去充實自己老師一天有多少時間可以用再來心思上的不合理人留不住是不是都有可能會是最直接的原因教育部長"},{"start":9507.652,"end":9536.253,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個老師怎麼樣讓老師能夠安心專注於在這個學校的教學工作我想那是教育部一直在努力的也利用這個機會跟委員報告事實上在民國57年改制為國民教育9年那大概一個世代30年也就是說它會形成一個世代30年的一個退休潮在上一個30年大概就是在90年左右它確實興起了一個退休潮"},{"start":9536.793,"end":9555.422,"text":"所以他就世代的一個教師人力的一個替補他確實在那一個87年到92年那個達到高峰那麼以這一個數字來看這也是我進來以後我就要我們師培師要注意掌握這一個師師的這一個退休潮的一個人數"},{"start":9556.142,"end":9583.996,"text":"也就是說如果用90年來看那大概在120年也就是說117年到120年120年左右這又會形成一個退休潮也就是說我們老師中小學老師在替補的一個過程裡邊他事實上會有一個階段性所以委員所提的那一個在上一個在這一個階段裡邊大概我們會快速的補充了非常多的一些正式的老師"},{"start":9584.736,"end":9584.876,"text":"以導師來說,好不好?"},{"start":9610.322,"end":9636.514,"text":"好導師也就是我們真的要強化這個現場教學的誘因導師是最直接面對孩子的最直接面對他的學生的那我們以導師職務的一個佳績的部分我剛剛有提到其實導師的工作非常繁重他的心理壓力跟生理上的壓力甚至於在專業上面的一個提供其實都是我們必須要很關心的光是以國中小"},{"start":9641.714,"end":9642.436,"text":"第2會期 增加到萬千塊錢"},{"start":9650.751,"end":9670.463,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9678.919,"end":9681.242,"text":"好 謝謝國委員 謝謝左院長下一位請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":9720.555,"end":9745.943,"text":"蔣副院長、卓院長、各會所長有請卓院長來請卓院長院長好政府員好首先感謝院長多次的來到花蓮了解和協助花蓮相關的交通的問題"},{"start":9747.464,"end":9769.852,"text":"我也要謝謝鄭委員我去花蓮你每次都會跟我們一起看看各地雖然你沒有在現場發表很多但是我看到你跟各鄉鎮長各地方的首長都私底下都有互動也都了解他們的狀況而且也透過各種各樣跟我談到很多這一點非常的感謝我們希望共同來努力把事情都做好謝謝"},{"start":9771.693,"end":9780.912,"text":"我們先看今天大家所關心的總預算之所以被沒有辦法交付審查的一個言由"},{"start":9782.968,"end":9808.917,"text":"這個我先把主題：結論先講出來行政院應該依依算法第79條最佳預算第一個要補足進法補償的費用第二個要返還這個違法挪用綜合發展基金的59億多的錢理由以下這個森林法第10條規定"},{"start":9811.53,"end":9832.895,"text":"岩竹林保育地被限制採伐然後呢森林法第31條規定森林法規定禁止岩竹林保育地我們自己所種植的林木禁止砍伐也明確的規定要發補償金請求補償金我們看這個"},{"start":9839.81,"end":9864.726,"text":"主管機關是農業部農業部這個有關原住民族基本法21條規定的很清楚政府或法令限制原住民族利用前向土地就是原住民族土地及自然資源的時候所限制所生之損失應由該主管機關是誰啊農業部還寬力預算補償之"},{"start":9869.761,"end":9870.321,"text":"經濟及內政委員會 經濟委員會主審"},{"start":9900.957,"end":9926.606,"text":"經濟級內政委員會從102年到104年審查了然後102年到104年是6次的黨團協商經過黨團協商之後104年8月當時的行政院就交代了人民會編列預算法律還沒通過先編列預算"},{"start":9928.035,"end":9952.926,"text":"然後104年的12月18號 這個我們這個單獨通過然後105年呢 1月6號公布施行這個進化補償條例第二條定的執行機關是誰 農委會然後呢 這個補償的事宜由行政院編列一段"},{"start":9954.211,"end":9980.161,"text":"當初是行政院編列預算：但是還是交給人民會108年行政院提案修了這個第3條108年改為主管機關主管機關變誰呢?人民會這是法律的一個進法補償的一個整個原有我們看原住民族基本法第18條"},{"start":9982.285,"end":10009.745,"text":"這個是原住民族綜合發展基金的法源政府因涉原住民族綜合發展基金辦理原住民族經濟發展業務辦理原住民族經濟發展業務原住民族綜合發展基金收支保管及應用辦法第3條以及預算書 行政院送來的預算書"},{"start":10011.904,"end":10035.177,"text":"這個預算書裡面特別明定本基金為預算法第4條第一項第二款第4目的特種基金是什麼呢凡付出仍可收回的特種基金付出去還可以收回比如說貸款貸款經濟貸款"},{"start":10038.069,"end":10064.211,"text":"本經會收回來還有利息可以收回來競發補償就沒有這個發出去收不回來我們看這個今年度的明年度的114年度原住民族中文發展基金的預算書寫得很清楚就是我剛念的就是預算法第4條第4目"},{"start":10067.369,"end":10084.108,"text":"就是反復出能可收回的 寫得很清楚 預算書都是這樣寫好 我們看這個歷年 105年度開始沒有動用到基金 有餘額公務預算有餘額 沒有動用到基金 從106年開始"},{"start":10087.13,"end":10112.902,"text":"公務基金公務預算跟綜合發展基金一領入開始公務預算綜合發展基金共同的編列所以按照剛才我講的研究法18條按照預算法的規定這個都是違法挪用的金額就是在第二後面的那個紅字的部分"},{"start":10116.274,"end":10140.122,"text":"經過本席多次的質詢．立法院也做了結議．事實上武力華也做了質詢．不應該用綜合發展基金．所以113年度．113就今年．沒有用到綜合發展基金．只有公務預算的補助．所以114年度．也應該要這樣好"},{"start":10148.739,"end":10174.09,"text":"這個剛剛已經說過了總共加起來就是違反我用了53億9千多萬立法院做過決議不得再用綜合發展基金了這個做過決議行政院仍持續的一直到112年度一直到113年度才做了正確的一個預算的編列"},{"start":10179.517,"end":10206.649,"text":"好 我們看這個基金 綜合發展基金 報告院長我在省政府當副局長的時候 原住民行政局當副局長開始因為省議員的要求 我們開始編列以前叫原住民族經濟事業發展基金經省之後改為中央 改為原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":10207.54,"end":10221.506,"text":"立法委員：也是一樣：一再的要求：要寬稠寬稠寬稠編列每年要由公務預算補助我們看這個預算書這是105年到12月31號的決算數基金的淨值117億7千多萬"},{"start":10233.118,"end":10257.404,"text":"當初的目標就是100億要做什麼用呢因為我們的貸款很困難因為我們是保留地原住民保留地你要貸款銀行不要所以必須要透過綜合發展基金作為我們的小銀行當初的目標是這樣有它的一個目的為了經濟發展你看這個禁止117到105點12月31號你看我們"},{"start":10263.57,"end":10284.224,"text":"這是114年度的預算書啊這裡面你看看已經累積短促負的63億短促是什麼意思我特別查這個字點啊財源不足啊財源不足63億預計到114年度"},{"start":10288.536,"end":10308.817,"text":"裂肌短處67億多從100多億的錢現在變成裂肌短處所以我們才會提出所以這個部分我曾經也質詢過檢察委的貝提敏她是學法律的她說"},{"start":10313.258,"end":10329.91,"text":"進法補償跟經濟發展是不同的概念他也是這樣認為所以很可惜他沒有做調查在這樣的情形之下我們先看到底有沒有違憲我們先看進法補償的"},{"start":10341.631,"end":10370.145,"text":"這個整個審查今年就是這次的版本從113年高均數美提案我113年3月20號本席也提案盧憲宜也提案吳立華委員也提案我們在4月的時候內政委員會審查通過通過之後113年4月24號陳寅委員也提案然後開始找朝夜協商"},{"start":10371.28,"end":10396.02,"text":"草寫協商之後就表決通過整個這一次的修法跨黨派72位的立委提案或連署72位民進黨有立委有32位這麼多還包含了黨團的吳思堯"},{"start":10399.859,"end":10424.267,"text":"幹事長還有幹部都有在這樣的情形之下立法院做的決議有這麼多的立委所做的跨黨派的立委所通過的法例這個是一個歷程我們甚至被抹黑有沒有看到這個貴黨的立委"},{"start":10425.677,"end":10430.881,"text":"是這樣來的我們要備受這個但是我們不在意沒有關係我們重點就是要協助原住民"},{"start":10444.14,"end":10467.458,"text":"根據中華民國憲法謝謝院長你沒有依憲法57條來提賦予謝謝院長既然沒有提賦予就照案執行照法依法執行所以我也舉例為什麼沒有違憲99年2月11號民進黨團提案東部發展條例"},{"start":10473.054,"end":10497.763,"text":"99年2月24號國民黨團提案東部發展條例99年5月5號黃庭生提案東部發展條例楊仁福立委說要改為花東第7發展條例後來通過了叫 名稱叫花東第7發展條例一算多少呢要編列400億的花東基金沒有行政院的提案喔"},{"start":10498.735,"end":10524.076,"text":"沒有行政院的提案400億的華東基金就這樣通過了照案執行還有很多老年農民福利津貼當初100年12月也是沒有行政院的版本沒有行政院的版本原住民族教育法103年原住民教育預算比例有1.2%調高為1.9%也沒有行政院版本"},{"start":10527.861,"end":10554.29,"text":"這剛講過了104年的話111年上一屆地方民代的那些條例村里長的這個增加他的這個費用沒有行政院版本為什麼到了原住民的就說有違憲還好要謝謝再次謝謝院長沒有提復院所以"},{"start":10555.711,"end":10582.581,"text":"我們還是要解決這個問題跟習氏公務員出生還是要怎麼樣依法行政怎麼樣去解決這個問題我們有解決的途徑預算法第79條規定很清楚可以追加稅出預算因為依法律增加業務依有關法律因補列追加預算者"},{"start":10583.442,"end":10611.487,"text":"可以追加預算而不要讓整個立法院或是整個行政院為了這個就傷腦筋就那麼十幾億的錢對不對就十幾億的錢五十幾億就賣一點好了就先用十幾億的錢五十三億可以賣一點最起碼十七億的部分先追加預算"},{"start":10614.081,"end":10640.06,"text":"這個曾主委因為你過去在縣政府服務縣政府沒有基金啊你在文化園區服務他也沒有基金啊基金的運用各方面類你不是很了解沒有關係現在我就告訴你方法我也找過了組計長演名會就是要提啊組計長不可能幫你送啊"},{"start":10642.188,"end":10669.327,"text":"提案的到主席總署送到行政院辦理追加預算預算法第79條追加預算不要再用我剛剛講了綜合發展基金不能動資所以不能有另外一條路我知道但是不能不能用操資並結算"},{"start":10671.547,"end":10700.479,"text":"不能用原住民族綜合發展基金抄資並結算不可以用走這條路你可能想走這條路不可以就辦追加算我跟監察委員執行被提名的時候我說中華民國政府沒有窮到要違法挪用原住民族綜合發展基金我再次的說中華民國政府"},{"start":10701.363,"end":10723.189,"text":"沒有窮到為了17億要再次繼續挪用原住民綜合發展基金所以不用回應了我就請院長能夠接受原民會的提案也請主席總署能夠支持這個部分"},{"start":10726.465,"end":10753.065,"text":"院長我們就往這個方向去努力也不要再讓這個總預算114年度的總預算在這邊來來回回可以嗎非常謝謝政委員算是從法制面來提供一個想法跟一個做法那這個競馬補償本來法案在修訂過程中在制定過程當中"},{"start":10754.943,"end":10775.466,"text":"可以看得出來這不是黨派問題所以各黨各派的委員都在裡面所以這不是黨派的立場而是基於行政跟立法之間兩院的關係行政院制定跟編列預算大院來審議預算所以如果用一個法律就可以增加一筆預算"},{"start":10776.633,"end":10805.893,"text":"或是一個特定的對象透過一個法令來增加一個預算未來磁力一開行政院無法掌握預算法律會越來越多預算會越來越高我們全國性整體性的衡量評估規劃就失去了它的意義所以重點在這裡而不是黨派之爭沒有黨派的立場那這一點謝謝委員的理解那未來要用怎麼樣的方式來處理這個事情其實在選"},{"start":10807.336,"end":10828.851,"text":"結算的過程當中我們很清楚的表示3萬元的淨化補償補貼如果能夠提升循序漸進的先編列為4萬行政院是可以接受的我們可以衡量所以我們這次是編了預算編了4萬我也跟原民會講說你們如果認為這個很急那裡裡面其他的費用要自己去挪用"},{"start":10829.671,"end":10840.999,"text":"如果你們認為其他的更急更急那這個費用要好好的跟立法院大院來做協商那至於說現在已經形成這個樣子我只希望說此例不可開此例一開"},{"start":10842.11,"end":10868.2,"text":"沒有辦法完成這個行政院預算的完整性我為什麼沒有提復議我也知道復議的結果是怎麼樣只增加兩院之間所以我們會有一個最終的一個救濟的方式但是我們現在還不想我們做我們希望透過協商來討論這個事情但原則是用一個法律增加預算此例再開行政院無法掌握預算的完整性這個請委員能夠理解院長"},{"start":10870.117,"end":10871.098,"text":"謝謝委員的建議花東回家的路"},{"start":10898.127,"end":10924.48,"text":"這個是這一次山陀鵝颱風所造成的113年10月2號當時樹花公路搶修經過 要謝謝交通部還有公路總局搶修之後就通車了102號那天天氣很好因為山陀鵝易走環流一直在南部"},{"start":10926.889,"end":10952.314,"text":"好10月2號蘇花公路上午開放三次通行我要謝謝下午又開放兩次通行到昨天一樣經過一個搶修之後一樣安全無疑之下三次開放通行我要談的是"},{"start":10953.598,"end":10980.841,"text":"同樣是交通部所俠的﹖雖然它已經是國營化﹖9月30號臺鐵公司發了第一個﹖這是9月30號10點52分﹖花東沒有辦法到臺北不能到花蓮﹖花蓮也不能到臺北﹖這樣一個情形"},{"start":10982.352,"end":11011.103,"text":"一直到10月3號還是一樣停止一直到昨天晚上我一直等一直等到了昨天晚上9點多發了今天可以通行的這個部分啊院長部長都去看了很多次圖示留下來先受影響的是公路"},{"start":11012.878,"end":11039.174,"text":"公路受到很大影響才會到鐵路所以那天 這兩天天氣都很好的所以這個部分 鐵路局要積極台鐵公司要積極一點我以前當公務員會主動打電話到氣象局現在是氣象署我要了解我們到山區到底颱風的狀況會影響到怎麼樣"},{"start":11042.503,"end":11070.299,"text":"他可以問﹖都是你們首屬的﹖他可以問氣象署﹖這個地區的乙量如何﹖人還可以親自去看﹖到底是如何﹖鐵果有沒有怎麼樣﹖所以﹖很多的鄉親﹖因為什麼事情來到臺北﹖北部回不去﹖很多北部的鄉親回到﹖要去花蓮﹖"},{"start":11071.815,"end":11089.193,"text":"臺東又回不去,所以這個部分要檢討改進。我們看這個舒華安遙遙無期,要特別請院長支持。我們先看北回鐵路,這個是我們"},{"start":11093.652,"end":11118.664,"text":"那個部長非常年輕的時候開始通行的可能3歲的時候吧部長年輕的時候北威鐵路通行從動工到通行花了6年的時間北威鐵路是最困難的非常多的隧道它是最困難的蘇阿改"},{"start":11119.9,"end":11147.22,"text":"說改從97年11月10號行政院合定可行性研究到這個通車109年1月6號從行政院合定可行性研究到通車花了11年然後從97年行政院合定可行性研究到動工動工喔"},{"start":11149.642,"end":11178.613,"text":"開始動工是兩年兩個月就從核定可行性研究到開始動工花兩年兩個月然後11年通車接下來的就是蘇化安現在發生災情的都是在蘇化安的位置蘇化安的原姓七個部落原住民的部落全部同意"},{"start":11180.458,"end":11208.397,"text":"一言之法行使全部同意然後呢 環評經過幾次的環評 也通過了好 我們看目前的預計108年12月20號 行政院核定可行性研究108年核定 到現在都還沒有開始要動工"},{"start":11210.512,"end":11238.872,"text":"在這樣的一個情形之下已經五年多了近五年了將近五年我剛剛講了兩年多蘇華安市兩年多就動工了現在已經五年多了還沒有動工然後預計完工的日期年份一再的展延所以這個部分這個就是要行政院這邊能夠支持當然最重要的就是"},{"start":11239.918,"end":11245.054,"text":"交通部要趕快送啊要報啊 要報行政院啊報告委員 現在正在國發會"},{"start":11247.654,"end":11271.38,"text":"報告委員陳部長非常了解﹖也掌握整個進度﹖包括東部的鐵公路﹖如何盡快的修繕﹖盡快的通車都掌握到了﹖剛剛委員所提到的樹花庵﹖目前現行的進度﹖也在國發會﹖在審議當中謝謝國發會主席報告委員目前我們已經函各單位在回覆意見中﹖我們預計10月15號開審議委員會﹖"},{"start":11274.381,"end":11275.082,"text":"總預算要趕快過就可以很快的來動工"},{"start":11290.188,"end":11308.912,"text":"有編列到114年度預算嗎有5000多萬在114年度我有看5000多萬是不足的是不足所以需要再更多一些所以要拜託委員在總預算的部分能夠幫忙總長將近30公里總預算會超過1050億以上明年我們就會開始那現在只要這樣子國發費"},{"start":11320.61,"end":11334.882,"text":"請各部會來各種意見之後我們就會看明年就會順利的公示我也相信我也期待這個預算在明年能夠順利的執行會通過啦謝謝委員你要努力也要拜託禁法補償的費用17億而已好這個好我們的國防部請國防部長來這個"},{"start":11348.817,"end":11369.913,"text":"本席幾乎每一個院長來我都質詢了國軍志願役士兵大幅下降我們看這個國防部的這個預算以創新高明年又在足額上場總額達到6470億新台幣我常說我們也沒有要問這個"},{"start":11379.773,"end":11408.979,"text":"我沒有反對最重要的是什麼我常說一句話你買再好的武器再精良的武器要不要人操作要不要軍人操作要軍人操作但是我們的退伍人員比招募士兵還這個士兵士兵是第一最重要的"},{"start":11410.049,"end":11432.258,"text":"而自願役的士兵：比這個亦乎亦的更重要我們看自願役士兵大幅下降這個109啊自願役的士兵5萬4千757其實5萬4千都不算多了已經是太少了到113 4萬1670114剩下3萬6千多"},{"start":11439.258,"end":11439.578,"text":"臺灣勞工的基本"},{"start":11472.782,"end":11494.879,"text":"平均薪資達到4萬6千多了平均薪資我們的還是這麼低 我有執行過好幾次所以很重要的你沒有增加這個志願役的薪資誰去當兵何況隨時要打仗打仗沒有關係"},{"start":11497.045,"end":11519.285,"text":"但是要有戰力這個就是備戰備戰最重要的就是還是要有士兵一無一士兵現在一無一只有一年根本沒辦法打仗我當兩年多也沒辦法打仗所以還是要靠自願意院長多支持國防部"},{"start":11520.838,"end":11535.502,"text":"跟委員報告現在委員關心的主要是基層的士官兵現在主要是上市以上大概都超過這個勞工平均經常性的性質就上市以上的超過那現在就是"},{"start":11563.524,"end":11568.669,"text":"好,謝謝好,謝謝鄭委員下一位我們請徐富奎委員質詢"},{"start":11594.884,"end":11596.246,"text":"徐文豪在屏東這兩天非常辛苦,謝謝你"},{"start":11616.872,"end":11625.079,"text":"院長跟兩位部長早安陳儒院長剛講的這兩天高屏地區歷經了大災難山頓颱風、路徑詭異、窩病讓很多氣象專家跌破眼鏡同時也對我們高屏地區造成很大的損害"},{"start":11638.359,"end":11652.758,"text":"我們截至目前為止剛剛我們還在跟屏東通電話到目前為止屏東還有4萬多戶停電我們的臺電的同仁也很辛苦在確定在搶救那包含剛剛我們也請我們的海巡的管主委"},{"start":11653.479,"end":11681.682,"text":"我們緊急的支援了海巡的艦艇把我們中油台電台水相關的一些國營事業的同仁再到小琉球去現在在搶救一些的災情那我想雖然是這個遇到了一些這樣子的一個災難但是後續針對屏東縣的一些重建的一些工程還有一些基礎建設本期藉這個機會要特別拜託院長跟我們行政院的團隊要來大力的支持讓屏東縣"},{"start":11682.783,"end":11702.143,"text":"這個未來能夠更好首先我想我們第一張照片我們先秀出來院長右手邊這個就是這一次前兩天我們訪寮大莊海體破損的一個照片你看這個缺口的前端有一個"},{"start":11703.527,"end":11703.547,"text":"禮案體"},{"start":11730.669,"end":11754.894,"text":"第2個這個整個極端氣候天候的因素我們所謂離岸體的第一道防線它這個高度跟寬度已經不夠了沒辦法動到這個海岸所以第一道被打破之後它第二道我們又緊急請第7河川分屬掉了所謂的消波塊同樣也無法阻擋這個海浪的一個巨大的侵襲所以才會造成我們海體的一個破損"},{"start":11755.834,"end":11773.349,"text":"所以在這邊特別請教院長拜託院長針對我們沿線包含從東港臨邊加東放寮整個離岸體的建設是不是有必要重新的全面在檢討重新的全面來建置加強我們離岸的一個保護措施"},{"start":11774.698,"end":11789.43,"text":"雖然歷年來我們對任何的治三防紅工程做得非常非常的多但是面對這樣的極端氣候非常來得快又大又急那可能很多的原來的設計安全的係數都不足以應付現在的狀況"},{"start":11790.111,"end":11795.035,"text":"市長 因為7月份開米颱風的時候我就已經有約了我們水利署跟我們縣政府的同仁到現場去看過也準備爭取明年度的預算6千萬來增加這個離岸體"},{"start":11816.556,"end":11831.535,"text":"可是這次來不及了 排題還是被衝破了非常抱歉對 所以是不是請院長除了訪聊這段之外能夠把整個屏東的沿海鄉鎮的部分是不是做一個全面的檢視跟盤點我們一次把它到位好不好"},{"start":11831.795,"end":11847.871,"text":"我們如果做得到整個臺灣環島的地方我們都希望能夠有安全的維護對 也跟院長說明包括這個海堤也已經三四十年了是這個整個結構都已經有問題所以也必須這個海堤的部分也必須全面的來檢視這特別的麻煩我們會全面來檢視"},{"start":11849.417,"end":11876.748,"text":"那除了這個海體跟離岸體的工程之外那我還是要再麻煩一下我們經濟部水利署因為我們現在我們沿海八萬加東林邊有幾個抽水站這個年齡都已經二十幾年他們原本設計的抽水的容量也已經沒辦法掩護我們現在的豪大雨所以我們現在面臨的狀況就是外面有大浪的沖洗裡面有豪大雨造成裡面的淹水"},{"start":11877.352,"end":11877.372,"text":"委員長"},{"start":11892.593,"end":11913.651,"text":"報告委員這一部分我想我們會因為極端氣候造成現在的颱風變遷我想這個是我們第一次碰到我們會根據現在的狀況然後會趕快深入了解以後然後會提報然後會向院長報告提出一個解決的方案"},{"start":11914.346,"end":11937.056,"text":"因為屏東縣其實從過去我們8年800億到606百億的治水預算已經也幫屏東做了很多的一個治水的一個工程那確實也造成我們以前所謂很多的明星的淹水熱點現在都已經慢慢的其實大幅的改善但是因為這些還有幾座的一些這個老舊的抽水站的設備這個五年一回比外走力比較多"},{"start":11938.217,"end":11939.919,"text":"這一部分我們會請水利署趕快加速來瞭解再來提報"},{"start":11955.666,"end":11977.837,"text":"國務委員報告明後兩天如果不妨礙到地方第一線的救災我們會到第一線去看看實際上的狀況以及準備來善後水退了重建正要開始我們要全力來爭取足夠的預算來支應各地的需求謝謝院長我們也期待院長趕快來所以下一張照片要讓院長看一下"},{"start":11979.967,"end":12005.542,"text":"這個你看我們的鄉親因為海堤破了要堆砂包那包含這個他們怕擔心這個我們整個從昨天停電到現在他們準備了自己的發電機但是發電機有也不夠也容易燒壞所以下一個議題就是要請院長特別來幫忙針對屏東縣我記得我們在蘇貞昌前院長的時候"},{"start":12006.144,"end":12032.142,"text":"平中線是一個颱風容易侵襲的一個縣市所以當時針對我們平俄公路有做了一個電纜地下化的工程所以這一次凱米颱風包含這次的山陀爾颱風恆春半島受停電的戶數就相對已經少了很多但是我們整個平安地區大停電的問題還是沒有改善那包含我們整個養殖專區他們現在面臨的就是"},{"start":12033.062,"end":12050.093,"text":"這個整個電纜只要電桿一斷線整個都停電這個一片東西都幾百萬的這個一損失而言這個不是只有幾百萬幾千萬這個整個產值的損失非常非常的大有沒有考慮這個整個針對我們養殖專區做一個電纜地消化的一個改善工程"},{"start":12051.458,"end":12065.787,"text":"報告委員 我想這個我們會加速評估但是這個我想你也清楚啦這個地下電纜的這個成本跟這個地上電纜的成本我們會看這個效益跟成本然後再提供給這個委員參考"},{"start":12067.548,"end":12069.71,"text":"我們會綜合來評估這部分我們會盡快把這個結果跟委員報告"},{"start":12091.651,"end":12116.712,"text":"副部長說明一下我要向委員報告關於停電的部分 農業部有針對發電機做它的補助所以這個部分是第一部分就是說當電缺電的時候我們發電機可以啟動這是第一個部分那第二個部分就是我們也針對有關於養殖區的這些電纜是不是要地下化我們先前也啟動了一些調查"},{"start":12117.833,"end":12117.973,"text":"移民意願"},{"start":12138.294,"end":12163.189,"text":"造成一些地下電纜本身的維修的困難所以這個部分我想我們後續會去努力那第三個部分是海水供應站的部分我們在屏東地區我們特別是剛才那個海堤破口的部分其實我們也啟動了很多這兩年也啟動很多海水的供應讓它變成一個專區而不是由每一個養殖漁戶個別拉管這樣的話會讓整個養殖專區會更有效率以上"},{"start":12164.189,"end":12189.759,"text":"部長謝謝你提到我下一個要提的問題我們如果趕快把海水公民站完成我們的鄉親不用把海港又到海景去取水因為這次很多水管因為海浪的關係整個都沖廢了你現在沒辦法抽海水進來鹹度不夠魚也趕快洗完一樣的問題都會產生所以這邊要拜託院長如果我們的地下化有困難"},{"start":12190.379,"end":12190.699,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":12207.193,"end":12231.878,"text":"報告委員每次的災害之後我們都會產生也發現新的問題我們就必須來面對它那麼將來如果我們衡量之後有這種防災的需要而且在技術上也是可行的那麼是不是地方政府來提出一個需求也提出一個配合的計畫那請經濟部 台電再來就個案我們來做處理希望是區域性的而不是一家一家的"},{"start":12232.918,"end":12261.723,"text":"院長因為我們都有所謂的養殖生產區我們可以用這樣的方式來跟我們當地的生產區來溝通我們一戶一戶來做改善來做處理最起碼有個中繼的電力的一個系統像地下化還是加強它的發電的設備這個我想技術問題我們就請要拜託院長海水供應站也要趕快完成那些公路就不用再繞了就直接從海水供應站可以直接處理阿銀我等一下部長這個預算本次講到預算都很頭痛但是一定要面對的事情"},{"start":12262.21,"end":12264.211,"text":"另外還有一個造成的問題從上一次凱米颱風到這次山陀颱風造成的就是一個漂流幕"},{"start":12290.933,"end":12296.374,"text":"我可不可以來說明一下 特別是建壩航開來以後從上游開始就有一些漂泥木一直往漁港這邊往河口"},{"start":12317.299,"end":12338.897,"text":"一個很重要的就是漂泥木在各部會都是認為屬地主義啦就是他漂到哪邊是屬於誰管但是農業部一直主動的跟縣市政府合作現在就是說縣市政府有開口合約那我們農業部的林保署跟我們的那個漁業署也有開口合約那以這個來講在漁港的部分我們就已經請開口合約叫人家進駐"},{"start":12339.778,"end":12352.594,"text":"只要有下來的時候就會把它打撈那另外林保署的部分會在靠近漁港的部分的一些河流我們做一些攔截所所以這個部分我想我們會跟地方政府一起來努力"},{"start":12353.408,"end":12381.683,"text":"我現在知道的狀況是我們向延埔漁港我們是由恆春農會每年派熱資來載這路剛才很奇怪為什麼漁業署不能在地有開口合約我們是用開口合約而且我們是已經進駐在漁港裡面只要有那個出來特別是在東港延埔的部分那其他的漁港的部分我想我們也會比照就是希望說用開口合約的部分讓廠商直接去打到上來而不是讓農會或其他的來處理"},{"start":12383.362,"end":12407.16,"text":"這個也要跟秦院長幫忙齁因為只要一發生這個風災這個漂流木光是討論誰要處理齁可能就是影響到很多的問題啊剛剛部長答覆過我們用開口合約進駐各港區在方式方面要用打撈的方式進駐把它撈起來對 開口合約廠商也要積極啦不是只有有合約沒有行動也沒有用啊對 是"},{"start":12408.7,"end":12415.733,"text":"那另外針對上次凱米颱風清洗之後﹐屏東縣政府提出的一個災損的重建金額高達8.2億"},{"start":12417.079,"end":12439.347,"text":"那這次山坨的颱風一樣也重創了屏東那所以屏東的許多建設需要我們中央全力來支持尤其我們許多的農民漁民一年的辛勞有可能瞬間化為無有尤其我們的基礎建設包含治水預算也好重建建設也好還有一些基礎建設的一些經費我們需要中央大力的來支持"},{"start":12439.927,"end":12464.667,"text":"那院長剛剛我想我們民進黨團也表達我們的立場我們不希望政爭我們也不希望這個因為所謂的一個政治的對抗影響到我們的民生所以前兩天我們我在跟我們的周縣長我們在訪寮看災的時候我們有一位我們的國民黨委員也到現場就當場被我們的鄉親"},{"start":12466.59,"end":12466.91,"text":"施政報告"},{"start":12489.299,"end":12512.583,"text":"預算的部分我們當然會極力爭取剛剛委員的大力疾呼我想國人都聽見了大家心裡都同樣的感受我想中央跟地方的一個資源調配應該是我們災後重建的一個核心的一個機制那現在因為我們的總預算被擱置那讓我們不只是屏東很多縣市的重建計畫也沒辦法啟動這不僅對我們屏東鄉親"},{"start":12530.387,"end":12545.271,"text":"好,謝謝許委員謝謝卓院長報院會上午質詢到此為止,下午2點30分繼續開會進行施政報告之質詢,現在休息"},{"start":12598.392,"end":12600.257,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12824.788,"end":12836.235,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12852.551,"end":12877.762,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12894.77,"end":12923.451,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12938.186,"end":12952.617,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12961.178,"end":12962.74,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13063.507,"end":13073.463,"text":"主席"},{"start":13086.538,"end":13105.632,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13116.271,"end":13135.102,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13143.404,"end":13148.468,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13167.286,"end":13167.747,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13219.057,"end":13221.602,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13251.67,"end":13274.003,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13279.267,"end":13279.567,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13307.325,"end":13307.826,"text":"主席"},{"start":13342.5,"end":13362.232,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13372.281,"end":13372.681,"text":"會議員．第4次會議"},{"start":13401.22,"end":13424.257,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13443.178,"end":13443.783,"text":"主席"},{"start":13472.801,"end":13473.924,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13506.408,"end":13517.098,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13544.787,"end":13560.964,"text":"議員ﷺ"},{"start":13592.415,"end":13608.15,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13631.312,"end":13631.352,"text":"主席"},{"start":13680.535,"end":13681.985,"text":"主席"},{"start":13790.811,"end":13810.784,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13876.015,"end":13902.947,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13908.439,"end":13910.762,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13995.828,"end":13996.27,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14293.268,"end":14296.172,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14478.2,"end":14479.326,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14607.005,"end":14609.13,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14667.978,"end":14692.637,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14765.265,"end":14769.565,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14799.77,"end":14803.065,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14849.377,"end":14850.384,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":15123.114,"end":15123.785,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15162.005,"end":15164.78,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15297.705,"end":15318.865,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":15346.647,"end":15348.615,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16486.5,"end":16487.724,"text":"主席"},{"start":19700.486,"end":19711.074,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19806.254,"end":19825.28,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19837.449,"end":19850.545,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19861.557,"end":19865.726,"text":"主席"},{"start":19875.801,"end":19888.606,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19901.032,"end":19930.282,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":19931.488,"end":19933.01,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20010.998,"end":20034.359,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20063.513,"end":20064.534,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20083.524,"end":20092.771,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20140.196,"end":20155.213,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":20219.906,"end":20222.39,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20374.804,"end":20395.562,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20427.526,"end":20438.453,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20471.067,"end":20473.404,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":20507.944,"end":20524.181,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20605.842,"end":20606.042,"text":"主席"},{"start":20613.005,"end":20614.349,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20649.685,"end":20655.971,"text":"但是他們是不是想要看的是那張決定"},{"start":20683.755,"end":20697.486,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20701.137,"end":20702.398,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20721.512,"end":20745.9,"text":"就想說他們到底是怎麼來的欸我說我們今天議場很棒我就沒有想到他對他應該是要我請天的表他們真的很喜歡他但是因為我還有傳一個那個出去那張那張有被給他們嗎那張大的就是給他們報告完整的"},{"start":20752.696,"end":20753.276,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20782.329,"end":20794.481,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20803.926,"end":20814.054,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20826.219,"end":20828.039,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20850.58,"end":20852.325,"text":"主席"},{"start":20876.971,"end":20879.804,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":20922.466,"end":20925.697,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21032.805,"end":21033.986,"text":"主席"},{"start":21057.809,"end":21060.092,"text":"請問你們我們出發了嗎?我是醫生處這邊OK 謝謝你 掰掰"},{"start":21074.415,"end":21096.468,"text":"就今天直接想說下來,你也想那麼多其實我想說有船因為其實禮拜二處長已經給我們要過了,就是一整天沒有空我就想說到底還要再給誰,反正禮拜四可能要做的都沒做到以前到底有沒有給他們,我也不知道"},{"start":21097.648,"end":21097.828,"text":"主席"},{"start":21613.259,"end":21624.562,"text":"現在我們繼續開會首先跟大家報告在議場二樓旁聽的是三名高中的同學歡迎大家歡迎歡迎歡迎歡迎接下來我們進行施政報告質詢首先請陳金威委員質詢"},{"start":21650.485,"end":21655.27,"text":"主席各位官員想請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備選"},{"start":21665.515,"end":21665.735,"text":"議員長施政報告"},{"start":21686.561,"end":21709.986,"text":"對 院長您有在網路上看到許多像我們南部的房子臨時的建材在17級的陣風之下抵擋不住所以本席在這邊也接獲了非常多的陳情他在路上不管是騎機車或開車但是會有東西從天而降這種臨時的建材中央對於未來我們風災的因應有沒有什麼解方"},{"start":21710.936,"end":21736.639,"text":"是的 這個昨天一整天在網路在電視新聞上都一再的看到整個屋頂被掀開甚至貨櫃廠的貨櫃一個一個像火柴盒一樣被翻落那這個都是將近17期強風所在來的我覺得這個是過去很少見的一個狀況我們希望從現在開始地方政府也能夠跟市民"},{"start":21737.219,"end":21761.062,"text":"好好的去宣導如何加強整個屋頂那種違建的能夠處理掉那合法房屋能夠把屋頂加強所以也請中央政府可能在災前的會議裡面可以加進這個項目希望他們可以在臨時建材做一些預防性的處理這次這個計像署跟整個應變中心一直在提醒說南部雨可能沒有像過去那麼大但風一定會很強"},{"start":21761.863,"end":21783.039,"text":"包括電力受損的部分一定要提前加強結果事實也證明現在電力還沒有完全恢復那民宅的部分更是嚴重本期質詢完之後也要立刻再前往南部也在這邊非常感謝我們的官員還有國軍弟兄錦霄同仁醫護人員清潔人員還有第一線的救災人員辛苦院長也謝謝大家"},{"start":21783.439,"end":21785.599,"text":"委員長講到員警今年7月這個觸目驚心的新聞一位三重的黃姓員警遭獨駕的男子撞死請問具體我們加強的作為為何呢"},{"start":21811.87,"end":21838.511,"text":"類似這樣的案件不只這一件最近也有另外一件在吐沉我們覺得原警在執行任務的時候非常的危險自身的安全從警政署以下要好好的再做一個教育任何保安全要放在最優先的地位來做思考所以我想內政部跟警政署都以這樣的案例一再發生深深的引以為戒希望能夠真的要進一步去照顧到安全"},{"start":21839.727,"end":21868.244,"text":"所以我們看到剛剛院長有提到三個月內有兩位員警被同樣的一種毒品叫做所製那第二位更是觸目驚心因為全國的國人有看到他是被拖行了被拖行了數百公尺這樣子的畫面三重的這位員警他有一位小孩只有4歲那這個清水派出所的所長非常優秀他本來是老師"},{"start":21869.404,"end":21892.238,"text":"追隨家庭所以從事警察的工作他的小孩是4歲跟1歲所以像這樣子的毒蟲一拖是把我們整個國家的司法體系警察體系還有他們一整家人白髮人送黑髮人甚至小孩1歲4歲晚上是看不到爸爸全部被拖行在地上碾壓"},{"start":21893.399,"end":21895.339,"text":"趙氏的兇手都已經罰判我們希望能夠速審速判"},{"start":21915.686,"end":21935.958,"text":"因為很傷心的是他許許多多的親友到靈堂是告訴他說希望你來生不要再當警察身為我們公務人員的大家長在這邊本席也要請您關注另外一個議題院長您知道今年還沒過完我們統計有多少的員警自殺離開人世嗎"},{"start":21943.717,"end":21956.494,"text":"我跟各位報告今年的數據這也是今天早上我最新詢問相關單位今年到現在還沒有過完已經有9位員警自殺離世我們統計過去"},{"start":21959.938,"end":21985.952,"text":"112年以前過去10年加起來是52位所以今年到達9位已經監察院來函要求必須要改善了所以大家看到獨駕把他們脫行的新聞明明出去合法的執法還有像這樣子每個月幾乎都有警察自強又冒上媒體怎麼還會有人願意讓自己的小孩或是家人身陷這樣子的險境"},{"start":21988.931,"end":22004.856,"text":"報告委員我想有幾點第一個我們一定要深自檢討您剛所提到說因公殉職的兩位員警我們在前一陣子在預告之後把因公殉職的條件已經提高了那再來就是我有到靈堂去跟他們的父母還有家人致意"},{"start":22005.476,"end":22030.575,"text":"那再來就是說他的遺孀未來如果有家庭工作需要支持的話我們一定全力來支柱那再來大概員警都有特別提到除了現行犯抓到之後我們認為這個毒蟲他們所吸用的這個伊托米子的部分目前為止法務部當然把它列為是三級的毒品可是我們很多警務同仁會認為說是不是可以把它升級成二級的毒品那這樣子未來在司法體系上面"},{"start":22031.095,"end":22058.465,"text":"比較容易可以針對獨家或者是獨營的部分做比較完善的一個措施那您剛所提到的所謂的警察在過去一段時間裡面心理壓力非常大自強的這個傾向第一個有的是創傷症候群那另外一個就是說我們在處理的時候我們現在已經請專家跟學者來幫忙不管是團體性的諮商或者是個別的諮商他們所需要的經費全部由警政署來全力負擔"},{"start":22059.045,"end":22061.126,"text":"講到剛剛的毒品防治本席在這邊提醒因為醫療專業所以有詢問非常多的毒癮專家"},{"start":22082.701,"end":22086.723,"text":"臺灣對於吸毒的比例並沒有特別在近幾年急速的升高"},{"start":22112.12,"end":22131.751,"text":"但是呢這個增長的速度有多快去年新北市只有查驗到13件但是今年到6月就暴增到49件而且有發現有兩成是未成年所以這種喪屍的毒品在青少年族群中傳播如何杜絕毒品入校是重中之重"},{"start":22132.831,"end":22152.617,"text":"我也很希望部長還有教育部部長以及這個內政部部長院長你們有時間可以走走到我們鬧區或是到我們各級學校放學的時間你會發現現在的年輕人可能人手一支電子煙雖然電子煙還是違法的拿在手上掛在脖子上未為一種風潮"},{"start":22153.817,"end":22174.488,"text":"那這些第一線的員警也有講到說好這件事是怎麼形成的他們取得這樣子非法的藥品或是毒品他一點點加進他的電子菸他會馬上飄飄然的這種現象所以對他們來說是一個很便宜的毒品的改造所以他們聚集起來吸毒吸完以後騎機車難免就會發生很"},{"start":22183.874,"end":22193.702,"text":"臺灣是一個管制的藥甚至你們已經列管成毒品還有這麼多人可以輕易的就可以持有呢我們有什麼具體的作為可以做呢"},{"start":22195.808,"end":22212.836,"text":"報告委員 我想是這樣我剛有特別提到我們希望依托彌子有時候在市面上可能叫做喪屍煙彈的部分可以杜絕所以我們現在在上一次兩位殉職員警過後我也非常謝謝新北市的警察局他們在短暫時間內已經先找到這個毒蟲"},{"start":22213.797,"end":22214.037,"text":"竹蟲已經要尋上溯源﹚"},{"start":22243.957,"end":22266.572,"text":"你現在這個藥檢的試劑你有辦法驗出所有的新型毒品嗎當他去盤查的時候有辦法嗎沒有那麼快對沒有辦法所以我希望院長可以協助第一我們要給他武器嘛我們要給他必要的資源還要給他額外的津貼對嗎他是不是應該要有必要的津貼因為他的工作項目越來越繁雜"},{"start":22267.711,"end":22287.777,"text":"我們應該從生活跟勤務各方面來檢討現在工作上遇到的一些工作瓶頸那是不是也可以請院長全權來督導盤點更新他們的氣毒設備並且這個食藥署也應該要加入對於新興毒品各個單位教育部加強的查緝防治可不可以做到呢"},{"start":22288.345,"end":22288.645,"text":"以及校園"},{"start":22307.95,"end":22330.354,"text":"以及校園最後我也想提醒院長這個不只是毒價藥價毒價還有酒價還有藥價其實是越來越嚴重我看到審計部的報告有納入藥價的防治檢討根據推估每年因藥價造成交通事故死亡人數是高達300多人是高過酒價的致死人數所以這邊也請院長檢討現行的道安規則還有處罰條例相關規定好嗎"},{"start":22335.516,"end":22350.745,"text":"否則第一線的員警的安全真的很堪慮他們面對的是不同的危險並且他們的執法的工具沒有配備他們任何檢驗的工具讓他們去發現這個人到底是要價或者是毒價如果執法的強度"},{"start":22351.365,"end":22366.912,"text":"或是這個刑責的強度提高有效的來減少這樣的案件的話我想各方的意見我們都會深入的講解我們真的很不希望再看到這樣子的憾事所以我也會針對剛才我提出的五點就一個月再請各位提出報告謝謝兩位部長"},{"start":22369.249,"end":22391.716,"text":"接下來我們要請這個衛福部邱部長謝謝衛福部呢今年5月14號人工生殖法預告日期已經結束了所以我相信其實在這邊已經有很多委員問過了很多大家引起期盼包括人工生殖包括其他的為什麼行政院還是遲遲都還沒有把最新的版本送進我們立法院呢"},{"start":22392.917,"end":22410.556,"text":"預告的期間已經滿了但是現在各方的意見還相當的多元在繼續的溝通當中我相信立法院其實就代表民意因為大家從各個的各行各業各個選區過來所以如果可以到立法院來做出最適合全國人民"},{"start":22411.056,"end":22413.418,"text":"對的 委員部長答覆之前跟委員報告我們也認為在目前這個時代"},{"start":22431.195,"end":22459.012,"text":"整個社會的需求人工生殖法我們應該用正面非常正面積極看它所以我們願意來跟各界做更好的溝通那溝通的細節部長比較清楚好 謝謝好 報告委員那我們供7月31號完成供預告以後那因為意見很多所以我們蒐集的各意見也邀請了醫學父權而且倫理及法醫專家以及相關的社會的部會召開了5次以上的一個會議來討論"},{"start":22460.762,"end":22472.17,"text":"那近視將依法治的程序現在在衛福部的法規會如果應該在10月底可以報到行政院"},{"start":22472.918,"end":22475.019,"text":"這也是這個禮拜以來許許多多醫療院所很擔心的啦早上我有提到說誰在颱風天出情"},{"start":22498.393,"end":22513.788,"text":"醫師醫護人員醫事人員就是其中之一啊他們不會風雨好醫院所有的維生系統很多是24小時要開的他沒有辦法節能省電他就是要開著另外手術室他要維持低溫才能降低感染率"},{"start":22514.048,"end":22514.208,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":22529.736,"end":22549.587,"text":"但是這個禮拜電價審議會的新聞是反反覆覆一下說10月16號以後醫療院所就要漲14%一下又說現在可能你動漲那請問各位對於醫療院所以前我們還有電費的補貼或者是動漲大家對於10月16號之後的態度是如何呢請郭部長說明之前我們認為各位委員報告基本的態度是"},{"start":22557.408,"end":22580.621,"text":"醫療院所不會增加他的負擔那至於他的電費以前是由台電來吸收那未來我們要想用什麼方式來做助理但是原則就是不會增加醫療院所的負擔所以你的意思是說這14%院長會幫我們想辦法請部長來答報告委員我們這一次就是基本上醫療院所就是不漲"},{"start":22584.224,"end":22598.393,"text":"謝謝,謝謝各位今天給我們一個很明確的答案否則全國關心這件事的人要提心吊膽一直要等到10月16號才會有消息啊沒有啦,我們有公告啊昨天大家都在風災當中昨天部長就已經公佈了謝謝國務部長"},{"start":22604.677,"end":22623.014,"text":"邱部長這個我覺得已經太多委員問過了所以我也不再多說太多但是上個禮拜因為很多委員真的很擔心您的意志很堅強說一定可以在明年6月前達到0.95但是院長有時候對外受訪又說財政上真的有點困難"},{"start":22623.915,"end":22649.036,"text":"當然最近新聞都有看到說我們上次討論要700億才能達成但是編列的預算顯然就沒有到所以今天本席也想要一起幫大家來思考我們有什麼開源節流的方法可以一起協助部長因為部長上禮拜回答陳玉珍委員你說到分級醫療開源節流改善就醫習慣都是您的方針是嗎要多管齊下"},{"start":22650.216,"end":22664.333,"text":"好,報告委員,我想我們真的非常感謝我們行政院,尤其院長、副院長對於我們健康的投資,特別在健保這邊的協助方案是有史以來最高的,我必須要先講清楚,但是"},{"start":22666.955,"end":22688.515,"text":"那要達到說我們所謂的0.95當然還要更多的努力我不是說一定能夠達到我是說我們會盡量努力而且醫療體系真的跟我講他們很感動那個行政院這麼的幫忙所以他們也要自己管理自己嘛譬如說我們做有效的管理當然有效的管理不是隨便合三那種"},{"start":22690.377,"end":22710.291,"text":"還有整個醫療制度的改變,分級醫療的確實我們等一下也一起來回顧一下,您之前擔任委員,我知道您對於浮動點值、平均點值、攤扣、斷頭其實您都有很多的想法,也質詢過薛睿源部長,我們也稍微看一下這總量成本都不止0.8,財政部給我們的成本就0.8,你可以基層0.81,你可以基層0.1、0.7多少你知道他怎麼經營?"},{"start":22716.52,"end":22720.404,"text":"對,部長您講得很清楚我們現在面對的問題就是"},{"start":22743.787,"end":22766.724,"text":"為了達到目標點子0.92、0.93又開始了您以前講到的斷頭、彈扣這樣子的行為好 距離您之前當委員的時候 知道現在的醫療院所又多了哪些多了通膨 多了電價的調漲 雖然剛剛說可能一度不用多了碳盤查 多了基本工資的調漲 多了護理人員的出走"},{"start":22768.177,"end":22768.277,"text":"發言委員 這個"},{"start":22797.723,"end":22801.708,"text":"攤客或者是斷頭這個都是各區他們自己"},{"start":22812.887,"end":22829.87,"text":"但套一句您剛講的要人家怎麼運營說實在的一群醫護人員他今年開始他的業務好他可能沒有辦法預期醫療利用率老齡化的現象或是新型傳染病所以他到他今年的業務結束以後呢第一他要先看你的浮動點子是多少"},{"start":22830.23,"end":22833.251,"text":"當然我在當立法委員的時候一定是跟議事團體聽他們的心聲然後我們覺得有道理要再爭取"},{"start":22859.956,"end":22860.765,"text":"我們當然就是把他們"},{"start":22861.62,"end":22889.233,"text":"的意見講出來然後盡量爭取那這段期間其實我們可以看到行政院的還有相關的長官們真的非常努力在希望我們不但要創造點子我們要創造我們健保的價值然後說也把用健康台灣把很多很多的我們要做的工作讓我們很尊嚴的去做它而在這當中就無形中能夠提升我們一定的點子這樣"},{"start":22890.313,"end":22918.523,"text":"我想貪扣嚴審齁兩個比起來我也想知道法務部部長的意見啦不管是健保法或者是全民健保生富和富醫療服務審查辦法第22條裡面都沒有講到貪扣這個名詞大概就針對樣品審查案件分析點數的核檢等等而且有法源依據的就是專業核酸專業核酸還有救濟還可以申訴喔我還可以申訴說為什麼我要這樣子做要不要法務部長備詢"},{"start":22919.543,"end":22919.704,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":22928.61,"end":22957.658,"text":"所以呢這個攤扣既然沒有法源的依據也沒有很詳列在所有的健保法相關法規裡面我也想請教法務部部長的意見根據我們釋字443號解釋他是不是有剝奪我們生命限制人民身體自由或者是有這個我們其他自由權利的限制者應該有法律來加以規範了因為他等於是變相把一個應得的酬勞再加出來還給政府這很明顯就是侵害到人民的"},{"start":22974.391,"end":22987.002,"text":"院長我也很希望您回去可以花點時間研究一下當你想要把帳面上做得很漂亮但是你在私底下用了很多的手段讓他的帳面好看其實你沒有辦法"},{"start":22987.702,"end":22987.962,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":23009.753,"end":23009.773,"text":"好"},{"start":23025.652,"end":23042.679,"text":"如果能夠有效運用的話我相信有助於點資那當中光是健康台灣在這裡面就有607億的錢有兩點我也想要點出來第一個我快速的講到上禮拜您回應陳玉珍委員說分級醫療就是一個很好的方法我盤點了過去106到113年我們總共是編列了530億花在分級醫療結果呢我們下轉的案件是負成長再來齁"},{"start":23053.904,"end":23064.475,"text":"從基層醫療到區域醫院到醫學中心就醫的比例是一動也不動那你們今年還要再編列預算的話如果是用一樣的老方法覺得有效嗎"},{"start":23065.413,"end":23068.854,"text":"推行分級醫療轉整制度都推行的非常有限那未來我是希望說我們真的能夠推行分級醫療的"},{"start":23088.099,"end":23100.677,"text":"這個預算拜託可以真的看到一點點成效好嗎因為過去8年是不動如山我想不只是說分級門診可以減少多少錢不只是這樣子而已應該用更好的一個方式來推"},{"start":23101.537,"end":23119.236,"text":"這個也是我們希望可以幫邱委員現在當邱部長落實的其實最近在開很多公聽會我們會發現說好癌症性要精心審查裡面有一大部分是拿來做篩檢篩檢呢你就會發現如果你篩檢一半肺癌大腸癌在前期跟篩檢一半是在晚期"},{"start":23119.716,"end":23144.408,"text":"他後面的醫療支出是天差地遠所以之前邱委員就提出說自費的健康檢查特別扣除額本席也覺得其實可以因為如果你沒有鼓勵大家可以在初期的時候就篩檢出來你背後的費用是更為龐大所以院長可以在這邊拜託您回去跟我們財政部部長一個月內進行這個可行性的研擬嗎"},{"start":23147.245,"end":23171.596,"text":"這是一個非常值得去研議的一個觀點如果能夠提前篩檢出來比如說我們最近做了一些很多像癌症的篩檢乳癌他可以提前篩檢出來但治療的成效卻不是像我們想像那麼好這可能我們治療的過程當中可能要用新的方式但是總是鼓勵大家能夠我們現在最多的肺癌大腸癌這兩項在前期他只要開刀治療的成效非常的好"},{"start":23172.296,"end":23189.059,"text":"所以他可以大幅下降你後面的財政支出你也不需要花那麼多錢在這個癌症型療等等所以明年的預算我們也變得相當多在癌篩提前篩檢的部分謝謝不好意思我想最後花5分鐘關心一下我們高雄關於觀光教育還有行人安全的"},{"start":23189.72,"end":23190.28,"text":"相關部會社長請備詢"},{"start":23208.106,"end":23208.486,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23239.688,"end":23255.246,"text":"這一間廁所在沖馬桶另外一間的水會沖到你的屁股還有它這個滴水啊上面下面已經連成一個鐘乳石這樣子的奇景了我真的很希望各位可以花點時間去看看這是我會刊親眼所及啊"},{"start":23255.686,"end":23282.853,"text":"我聽說教育部在7月的時候又提報了一筆80億的廁所預算聽說行政院9月26有拿到審核的結果是不是想知道說80億什麼時候可以讓教育部拿到位因為我們高雄的市政府都已經撥好地方必須要付的福山國小、明德國小、新甲國小等等的案例都準備好配合的錢只需要教育部行政院一個點頭學校就可以馬上施工而不是讓這些小朋友從念小學一直等到畢業廁所都還沒好"},{"start":23284.016,"end":23309.981,"text":"跟委員報告過去8年我們投入了83.5億114 115 116 3年我們編列了81億希望能夠整建2670間70棟的老舊廁所能夠注意到公共設施或是學校廁所的這個問題都跟我一樣我們都有一種屁啊 潔癖之類的所以這81億什麼時候教育部可以拿到我們已經編列了明年預算通過我們就馬上可以請教育部長來指"},{"start":23310.754,"end":23337.939,"text":"是謝謝委員的一個關心 確實上一次委員所關心的學校 那我們也循這個程序 這個跟行政院院長來報告 那院長也非常的這個覺得這是一個非常重要的影響到這個學生的這個學習品質 所以院長在上個禮拜已經批"},{"start":23338.649,"end":23343.215,"text":"我更希望他優先用到真正快速趕快需要改善的地方請委員能夠提供"},{"start":23356.671,"end":23381.751,"text":"謝謝我們接下來請陳部長還有陳主委齁這個連池潭是我們高雄很重要的觀光景點也是這個禮拜風災重創的但是據我所知有一筆這個補助2268元的風景區營造工程啊觀光署對於高雄市提報的預算書圖有意見所以在這邊可不可以特別跟陳部長拜託一下在地方政府修正他的書圖的同時可不可以允許他們同時的工程招標呢"},{"start":23382.723,"end":23402.401,"text":"報告委員他們預計在10月9號也就是下個禮拜會辦理工程上網招標的公告好 謝謝10月9號就會來進行謝謝 謝謝部長那我也請陳主委就發揮您的專業可以在他們整個標案設計啊發包工程建案等等的順暢度可以協助他們好嗎謝謝主委可以"},{"start":23404,"end":23431.1,"text":"謝謝接下來是跟我們劉部長比較相關而且是劉部長非常熟悉的區域啊這個行人安全四年四百億行人安全的這個計畫有很多都是在學校周邊都是劉部長非常熟悉的那我知道說這個第二第三已經獲得公路局通過但是第一個因為跟中央道路無關所以推回給國土署可不可以請劉部長在這邊幫忙我們國土署可以接到這個作為審查第一順位呢"},{"start":23431.68,"end":23442.915,"text":"跟委員補充報告一下我們其實在10月1號的時候已經有通知高雄市政府目前第5次的提案會在11月8號左右全部來一起統籌辦理"},{"start":23445.695,"end":23472.72,"text":"11月8號11月8號全部的全部的部分不是只有針對非常感謝也在這邊謝謝我們交通部陳部長最後一個也是我們劉部長很熟悉的在這個新莊一路那邊有四所學校嘛從小學到最高等教育即將要蓋的清大交大都有但是連年的交通事故非常的高所以這個國土署代表上禮拜有來他是不是把他列為10月1號審查第一順位有沒有什麼好消息可以提供給我們"},{"start":23473.36,"end":23475.161,"text":"謝謝陳金威委員的質詢 謝謝主委院長：相關部會所長的備詢接下來我們請登記第50號011警委員質詢"},{"start":23530.43,"end":23530.59,"text":"林委員好"},{"start":23544.022,"end":23573.159,"text":"院長好我想請台灣已經是世界潮流不僅美國澳洲荷蘭義大利都紛紛來正式表態拒絕中國惡意扭曲聯大第2758號決議那世界各國也紛紛來支持擴大台灣的這個國際參與我想置身這樣的一個歷史時刻該如何好好的把握我們來積極行動我想是政府跟我們全體國人的重大課題那所以在此時此刻"},{"start":23573.639,"end":23575.361,"text":"今天本席就要跟院長來提到"},{"start":23602.962,"end":23625.747,"text":"正式集醫療跟文資這兩大價值餘生2009年就被領選為臺灣世界遺產潛力點的樂生療養院聯合國教科文組織的前副主席西村信夫他有指出樂生療養院他"},{"start":23626.987,"end":23643.433,"text":"復合世界遺產公約執行作業要點中提名原則也就是說如果由國際組織來申請發動再請台灣納入跨國申請的地址之一可能是應對台灣"},{"start":23645.915,"end":23660.567,"text":"對於這個國際處境的一個相當好的解套而且因為這個患生者病患而他們受到的歧視跟隔離的歷史我想這是普世的經驗所以更是全球重要的人權的問題"},{"start":23661.648,"end":23681.503,"text":"一旦提出申請 審查的國家也不會用國家的定位來為這個理由拒絕受理所以我想衛福部邱太元院部長也說過樂森療養院代表臺灣醫療史的重要發展衛福部 文化部 教育部應該要聯合起來才能將這段歷史"},{"start":23684.005,"end":23703.777,"text":"可以完整的呈現所以想要請教卓院長樂生院的申請世界遺產的工作不曉得現在有做了多少的努力那未來你如何透過行政院的高度來整合各部會包括衛福部教育部文化部以及外交部來努力的爭取世界遺產的申請 院長"},{"start":23704.477,"end":23731.074,"text":"是 報告委員 文化部已經責定18處世界遺產的潛力點在臺灣而且他已經成立了第5屆世界遺產的推動會那麼其中就知道了這個樂生療養這一件他已經完備了相當清楚詳細的文本我們希望能夠爭取到大家對這個地點對這個過去的醫療行為所留給人類的一個記憶點做一個有效的保存那行政院會完全全力來支持文化部這樣的工作"},{"start":23732.575,"end":23758.786,"text":"我可以補充一下因為我們才剛剛開完一個國際論壇就是請ECMAS的7位國際專家來台灣開一個論壇然後那個論壇非常成功雖然我們不屬於聯合國的這個會員國但是推動這個議場我們就用這個方式請國際的ECMAS的專家來台灣開會然後我們馬上在10月份就召開一個第5次的一個"},{"start":23759.83,"end":23761.111,"text":"9月10月做的事情"},{"start":23787.239,"end":23813.553,"text":"所以我真的要謝謝部長的說明那也要請行政院再積極來推動這個世界遺產的申請因為對歷史跟文化的尊重當然是我們首要價值可是連帶這個臺灣的國際地位也好文化觀光也好跟跨國合作的可能性我想這都會因為我們對於世界遺產的努力而獲得更大的進展那另外我想再來本席要跟院長討論中國"},{"start":23822.008,"end":23840.56,"text":"我們的這個鄰國中國我想賴總統在今年8月在凱達格蘭論壇開幕式裡頭有提到威權主義擴張越來越具侵略性而且已經是對於全球是一個很大的挑戰"},{"start":23841.52,"end":23855.23,"text":"中國不僅在台海軍演也跟俄羅斯在南海日本海西太平洋都進行海空聯合軍演那我想這個破壞區域和平穩定這部分對我們實在是非常的嚴重"},{"start":23856.591,"end":23880.616,"text":"除了傳統的軍事威脅以外當然中國同時也將貿易武器化那對各國進行一些經濟脅迫利用網路啊科技啊擴張數位這種極權主義來影響全球的民主發展那我想近期一個引起各位注意的就是說中國的這些擴張除了國對國的威脅外他也因為用長年的這種"},{"start":23882.016,"end":23883.397,"text":"中國的蘇州就發生了母子"},{"start":23906.81,"end":23922.339,"text":"而被砍傷的事件那不到三個月而9月18號而又有一名中國而就讀中國深圳日本人學校的10歲的男童那也在上學的途中被這個一名中國的男子砍死"},{"start":23923.32,"end":23940.082,"text":"那所以日本的首相石破茂有對於這些事情發表非常沉痛的憤怒跟表達不滿那我想請教院長怎麼看待日本人在中國遭殺害的這個事件那這樣的野蠻事件你又有什麼樣的譴責"},{"start":23942.471,"end":23968.914,"text":"謝謝委員不僅日本人前幾天我們看到中國的遊客在臺北針對香港的民族人士也做出非常不禮貌的一個動作那同時我們看到在南海中國對鄰近的國家也進行一些這個傳播武力上的一些對峙跟挑釁所以我認為這個是全面性的是中國在徒稱霸世界的過程的開始"},{"start":23970.215,"end":23998.612,"text":"但是用仇恨的教育他只會喪失理性用仇恨的教育也只會威脅和平所以我們看歷史來看用仇恨來教導人民來窮兵黷武對外做任何擴張的軍事行動到最後終究是這個領導人會遭受到世界歷史的唾棄這個是很嚴重的事實也是不可抹滅的事實我也希望中國的領導人能夠看清這一件他們現在自己"},{"start":23999.392,"end":24017.712,"text":"力圖成為經濟大國應該把自己的經濟搞好力圖成為世界的政治大國不應該用仇恨的教育應該用包容用合作共榮的方式才能得到大家在區域和平之後能夠理性的來討論對世界人類和平的最大貢獻"},{"start":24019.984,"end":24040.754,"text":"當然 綠黨看得非常清楚因為中國對台灣的侵略惡行當然一直是明目張膽的那他對世界各國也如此對台灣更是如此所以我想我們對於中國這樣的不管是中國公民的言語暴力也好或者是中國對於整個台灣的惡行我想我們都要有所防範"},{"start":24041.454,"end":24063.344,"text":"所以在今年6月27日陸委會就已經有對於中國的旅遊警示這個有橙色的警示那也就是提醒國人應避免非必要的旅行那理由是因為中國政府近年來已經威脅到嚴重威脅到國人的人身安全那我想本席想要請教就是說"},{"start":24065.037,"end":24077.086,"text":"針對中國近期為了吸引台灣的首來族而祭出的中國的各個景點一年內免門票的這種優惠那陸委會有什麼樣因應方式"},{"start":24078.527,"end":24103.706,"text":"會員怎麼樣提醒國人的非常感謝委員關切這一點近期中國大陸為了刺激他們的消費特別是為了增加更多的旅遊推出了包括景點免費、低價團等等的一些優惠措施不過我們這邊還是要呼籲國人復路最重要的是人身自由安全的風險"},{"start":24105.667,"end":24132.652,"text":"比如說您剛提到我們在6月底發布的這個旅遊警示最主要是針對6月21號他們發布的審讀22條意見這個對國人的人身自由安全的風險影響甚大這個法律基本上它界定的非常模糊而且設計上也充滿了各種不文明的制度包括這個"},{"start":24135.613,"end":24153.768,"text":"長臂管轄、終身追訴、缺席審判以及判處死刑還有沒收財產這些相當不文明的制度設計所以我們加上又鼓勵舉報所以我們呼籲國人、婦人要關注自己的人身安全的風險"},{"start":24154.969,"end":24156.67,"text":"那我想最後要跟院長再討論一下"},{"start":24187.062,"end":24211.258,"text":"五一勞動節院長我想我跟您討論五一勞動節全國一致放假的問題已經從蘇貞昌院長到陳建仁院長到您卓院長上一次的會期我有跟您討論過那我本來以為經過大家長期的討論這下倡議原本快要獲得了這個確實的那我想"},{"start":24212.239,"end":24229.234,"text":"不曉得為什麼徒踩煞車搞得大家也都人仰馬翻院長 行政院認為把全國兩大群人無數的家庭放假日不一致到底有什麼樣的意義每次談到無一勞動節行政院就會說"},{"start":24232.997,"end":24251.191,"text":"是依據公務員服務法公務員一整年的放假天數是115到116天那目前已經達到上限請教院長你這樣的說法到底是依據現行的公務員服務法的第幾條又是哪一年修法的 院長"},{"start":24252.831,"end":24274.199,"text":"這個是公務員服務法第11條他是在89年6月就三讀通過的內容就是115天到116天但是我們最近這兩天為了要放假不放假的事情搞得大家都非常的不安很焦慮我覺得全國公務員也好包括所有的國人在什麼時候"},{"start":24275.46,"end":24285.621,"text":"該怎麼樣放假 有怎麼樣來決定地方該負待一地方的責任 中央會來協助這件事情我想我們就統一來看規劃將來朝一個更合理的方向來思考"},{"start":24286.705,"end":24306.72,"text":"因為剛剛院長您提到公務員服務法這個你說是89年那就是2000年可是可能院長你可能沒有理解沒有弔詭的是說在2022年公務員服務法有做過全委的修正"},{"start":24307.521,"end":24322.686,"text":"所以該項的所謂的115到116天的休假日上限他是一個附帶決議他的原條文已經被修正不復存在了所以這樣的一個附帶決議行政院還在遵守這個條文在2022"},{"start":24325.508,"end":24342.61,"text":"公務員服務法已經經過修正了這個看起來院長沒有掌握所以你們還宣稱依照這樣的一個附帶決議來處理公務員的休假那院長我想今天這場質詢包含公教人員在內的全國勞動者都在看"},{"start":24343.351,"end":24362.119,"text":"五一要不要全面放假實際上我覺得這是最表面的問題可是政府應該不容閃躲的核心爭議是在我們該如何看待勞動人權的普世價值我想當台灣被背負的所謂的過勞之島的罪名的時候我想政府卻持續帶頭破壞勞動者的團結"},{"start":24365.489,"end":24385.546,"text":"我們把所謂的受薪者階級硬生生把它分成兩塊一塊叫做勞工一塊叫做非勞工公教人員就是非勞工那勞保就是勞工然後用這樣切分勞工與非勞工的錯誤概念然後來用紀念勞動者團結的這一天來刻意的彰顯出來院長不覺得很諷刺嗎"},{"start":24387.147,"end":24407.002,"text":"委員長 上次你跟我的回答 也跟其他的委員回答說要來尋求社會的共識我想問是說五一勞動節 全面放假需要的社會共識是什麼請院長回答我那政府又打算如何的權衡社會共識那我想當牽涉到勞動團結跟"},{"start":24409.428,"end":24409.468,"text":"對勞動人權的維護"},{"start":24438.865,"end":24440.545,"text":"好 謝謝林益錦委員 也謝謝卓院長跟相關部會所長的備詢"},{"start":24473.464,"end":24497.975,"text":"接下來我們請登記第51號羅明才委員質詢韓院長在座卓院長及相關行政團隊大家下午好可不可以請韓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":24508.684,"end":24516.254,"text":"委員長你好陸委員好莫忘世上苦人多特別這幾天啊颱風假"},{"start":24517.905,"end":24540.564,"text":"雖然是放假,但是我一顆心,忐忑不安在家裡也好,在外面也好,到處看,看看雨大風大,會不會造成對台灣的影響跟傷害不過這幾天,我一直在想一件事情,不曉得卓院長你在想什麼"},{"start":24543.232,"end":24567.549,"text":"突然放一天假又放一天假其實今天我覺得運氣還不錯至少天佑台灣沒有太大太大的災害因為我們看到媒體看到觸目驚心本來就是覺得是小狗小貓雨下的跟狗貓一樣可能很大很大可是感覺"},{"start":24568.936,"end":24596.195,"text":"沒有媒體報的那麼可怕他都說破紀錄啊可能會破表不曉得總理長這幾天你有沒有想過一件事情故事都一直在重演不是今年10年20年30年大概30幾年來每次就是為了那個颱風天到底要不要放假標準在哪裡大家莫衷於是一些家長"},{"start":24597.942,"end":24627.006,"text":"這個想破頭皮阿萬一明天放假明天沒放假我小孩子怎麼安排阿家裡現在又不大一般小家庭二十幾坪三十坪如果三個小孩全部都在家裡哇這個吵那個鬧這個哭很麻煩阿院長你有沒有想過未來的颱風架你有沒有想過怎麼放才是最好的模式"},{"start":24628.018,"end":24641.951,"text":"首先我想委員也清楚臺灣應該是唯一有颱風架的一個有法定機關來宣布的我們鄰近國家甚至美國包括日本都沒有政府機關來宣布有颱風架"},{"start":24643.792,"end":24662.723,"text":"舉例中香港是有一個八號風球日本是交由公司、團體、學校依照各個需要來處理那我們來看我們在安全跟災損之中我們可能有些人是選擇安全的所以認為放假是好的"},{"start":24663.163,"end":24689.606,"text":"可是在那些很辛苦要工作每天要靠一筆薪水來維持自己生活的以及那些小老闆們必須要維持他的工作他才有公司的營運的這些人可能他們更希望的是在經濟上的考量能夠多一點所以這個標準是很難的所以院長怎麼想呢只能從災害的控管交通設施關鍵基礎設施等等來考量但是每個人因素是不同的"},{"start":24690.006,"end":24706.603,"text":"那過去將近30年來台灣都屬於地方政府來決定但我覺得現在我們有很好的科技氣象署中央氣象署應該可以用科技來提供更正確的資料給地方政府這一次這個颱風很怪異走得很慢路線很怪而且真的是"},{"start":24707.244,"end":24710.986,"text":"所以這樣聽起來的話以後這個放假不放假颱風天的標準不會改變我們需要用科技的精確的"},{"start":24735.74,"end":24737.532,"text":"講到科技就是說氣象局"},{"start":24738.795,"end":24764.513,"text":"氣象局從前幾天開始說天翻地覆會破紀錄到最後不斷的修正變化就好像是孫悟空的72變一樣變得大家莫衷於事究竟我們的預算裡面科技那麼發達難道沒有辦法很精準的告訴大家雨有多大風有多強嗎我們一年的預算在氣象局花了多少錢"},{"start":24765.633,"end":24780.906,"text":"報告委員如果您身上跟我一樣有氣象署這幾天當中一直傳過來經過這個應變中心傳過來的資訊來看氣象署的預測是接近於相當準確的甚至跟其他國家比較起來我們的路線等等是相當準精準的這個"},{"start":24781.647,"end":24788.75,"text":"我們眼睛看到的媒體ABC台進香標價A講說小小的B就要往上加阿明明水淹一點點那個角度即使再躺一點"},{"start":24804.008,"end":24809.391,"text":"這一次有一些人說AI比較準但實際上我們看最後的數值氣象署的數值是比AI還要準一些"},{"start":24827.839,"end":24842.247,"text":"那有些說中國的比台灣的準其實最後印證起來氣象署還是比中國的還準你們一年的預算花多少錢?一年預算花多少錢?預算啊?對,從預算到氣象局氣象署氣象署是不是今年是七十幾億的樣子?對啊,七十幾億"},{"start":24847.645,"end":24862.936,"text":"今年會比較多一點因為我們要增加一些設備一年花了70幾億有沒有變成是在設備標我們要增加預算是要增加設備讓它未來更準但委員跟您報告這一次的颱風真的跟過去非常的不一樣因為過去47年"},{"start":24863.997,"end":24885.195,"text":"很少有颱風到高雄登陸這第一點第二點幾乎沒有看過那一種颱風在海外然後我們已經發了路警4天又4個小時才登陸的為什麼會這樣啊過去沒有這個樣子因為其實秋颱本來秋天的颱風本來就不好不是秋天的颱風本來就不好預測手出來把風雨擋住了"},{"start":24885.995,"end":24912.548,"text":"這是大自然的現象我們事先預測颱風會在台灣消失它真的就在登陸之後變成一個熱帶性的低氣壓我們也是感謝啦 感恩的心啦沒有造成太多太多的災難其實安全是最重要的至於其次就是你剛剛講的放假放一天兩天只不過它造成了很大很大的不便我希望行政院這邊也可以再討論看看"},{"start":24913.228,"end":24941.922,"text":"因為現在的極端氣候未來可能還是會繼續遇到這些問題那遇到問題就要面對問題如何來解決問題是最重要雖然氣象局一共大概每年花了70幾億沒那麼多啦報告委員沒那麼多啦我剛才講的數字是錯的不好意思這個數字我再精準一點再跟您報告好 不管好幾十億啦齁雖然是花了幾十億齁但是不要怕因為中華民國很有錢中華民國有錢的不得了"},{"start":24943.168,"end":24965.421,"text":"院長我們今年一花就要花大概總預算三兆既然有那麼多的錢來花這一次颱風的這個洗禮過後我越來越擔心的就是小朋友上學安全的問題建築物大概一萬兩千多棟大概超過五十年的有兩千多棟"},{"start":24966.823,"end":24967.003,"text":"好 委員請放心"},{"start":24989.175,"end":24991.156,"text":"謝謝院長 那我們這部分就優先來考量一下那既然講到中華民國很有錢 其實我們不缺錢"},{"start":25012.142,"end":25039.756,"text":"只要把餅做大我想院長也是來積極推動可是你上任了以後亮點還不夠不過我看到在那麼多的部長裡面有一個點子王他講說希望把台灣成為整個亞太的資產管理中心這個很好可是到底做得到做不到因為本席覺得很好所以我提了一個案就是這個"},{"start":25042.701,"end":25061.915,"text":"當沖降稅年底就到期了可以延長5年那我覺得這個彭志偉頭腦也不錯也很有心要做所以我提了5年的案結果居然聽說我的案子可能會被做掉我只是"},{"start":25062.682,"end":25079.661,"text":"想多一點的力量來幫助行政院把事情做好把餅做大因為你做大現在日均量大概5000億來說如果台灣成為亞太的資產管理中心我們可能日均量可以到8000億到1兆左右"},{"start":25080.242,"end":25109.555,"text":"我們收的證交稅更多啦所以拜託院長我大概問了一下大家支持五年的比較多可不可以拜託財政部你們溝通一下我們就讓他調為五年理由很簡單很多外資要來台灣投資你一下十三年三年關兩年罵一晃眼兩年就到了他要考慮他的整體資金的配備他的水位是多少掉來掉去"},{"start":25110.421,"end":25136.753,"text":"那得不償失：既然要3年要推了為什麼不推5年跟委員報告非常可惜本來昨天我們要開第二次行政院經濟發展委員會其中我們在會開始之後第一個報告就是會把過去第一次會議的決議向社會大眾來說明其中委員所關心的亞洲資產管理中心同志委就會做很多有時間性時程上各種進度的說明跟安排"},{"start":25137.173,"end":25157.353,"text":"那這個就是彭帥一直說的亞洲資產管理中心兩年要有改四年要有變六年要有整這兩年當中我們再把他細分成幾個階段他就會提出時程很客氣可是我們會盡快設定時間對所以議員長你剛講這個兩年四年六年啪三年又到了又遇到一個同樣的問題我們現在前面這兩年有改"},{"start":25159.114,"end":25184.991,"text":"這個當沖降稅三年以後要討論這個問題同樣的時間同一個地點又要不要再延原來昨天就跟大家報告前面兩年會做出什麼樣的時程這個他都有很詳細的規劃現在是要延三年還是要延五年是那個謝謝委員的指教剛剛委員提到兩件事情一個是亞洲資產管理中心一個是當沖降稅的問題那我先簡單回答亞洲資產管理中心的這個議題"},{"start":25188.133,"end":25216.722,"text":"剛剛院長也有提到因為確實台灣在過去推動這樣的一個政策有很多我們先天的限制但是台灣也有很多很多的優勢我們這次推動這個亞洲資產關係中心是用一個比較不一樣的思維是用盤點台灣的優勢來進行這個活動剛才講比如說剛剛院長提到我們兩年有感我先簡單講一個數據我兩年之內我們金管會要修改46個法規一定會讓人民有感"},{"start":25217.102,"end":25217.122,"text":"當沖降稅"},{"start":25236.661,"end":25259.699,"text":"我想站在金管會做一個資本市場管理未來比如說壯大台灣的股市這也是我們推動整個資產管理中非常重要的一環所以我們在過去從106年開始我們推動這個當沖降稅以後確實對市場帶來非常大的比如說對它的交易量的提升流動性的提高以及所謂的避險工具的提供等等都已經產生這樣的一個效果"},{"start":25260.359,"end":25271.939,"text":"我們這次屆期以後我們今晚會站在證券主管機關的立場我們也把立場提供給財政部因為財政部是稅的主政機關我們最後也尊重財政部的看法"},{"start":25273.012,"end":25300.994,"text":"好 謝謝那聽起來是不錯啦因為包括本席所提的提案就是保險法裡面這個規定如果修正通過大概海外的保險資金會回來大概9兆左右9兆希望投入公共建設所以彭主委你推動這個我們是樂觀其成所以主委長如果有好的官員好好做你要不要全力支持呢"},{"start":25302.339,"end":25321.122,"text":"現在的問題就是各部會 其他的部會會扯他的後腿啊 比如說大家最關心的 剛剛講的不斷的發展 那我相信這個院長心裡會覺得 那我們股市到3萬點有沒有問題"},{"start":25328.147,"end":25339.675,"text":"彭卓也很希望各部會提出意見這只有讓事情做得更周圍更圓滿比如說當沖降稅這個事情其實我們對於一些租稅優惠就應該要明定它的時程而且也不應過長"},{"start":25341.175,"end":25343.558,"text":"好的 本席都會舉雙手贊成因為最重要是把台灣這個地方做好"},{"start":25359.139,"end":25384.727,"text":"讓大家安居樂業然後讓韓院長講說 莫忘世上苦人多我們希望說苦人的少一點所以有錢人多一點 然後大家樂捐嘛讓這些苦的人可以得到社會的關懷讓大家同步的成長 貧富懸殊 不要差太大但是 呃 總理長你不要忘了各部會有一些齁 他會出現扯後腿的情況接著我就要想請教一下"},{"start":25387.477,"end":25411.615,"text":"台灣未來發展要做得很好其實就面臨兩個最重要的事情第一個台灣會不會繼續成為國際口中的地緣政治最危險的區域所以院長你為什麼不好好來思考一下現在目前我們大概看起來人民的感覺就是全中華民國政府就全部單邊壓在美國"},{"start":25413.973,"end":25437.474,"text":"你們能不能有另外一條思維大陸這邊不管你喜不喜歡他你要留一線嘛 對不對兩邊留一線日後好相見啊現在不是啊現在我們媒體看到的就是買軍購買軍購民兵要40萬大家要對沖對撞不是民兵這個委員民力不是民兵民力對不起民力因為我沒當過"},{"start":25439.155,"end":25453.473,"text":"議員長"},{"start":25453.735,"end":25466.921,"text":"我想兩岸如果可以來思考推動和平協議不是簽喔只是推動大家聊聊看因為推動和平協議還是要經過台灣2300萬人的一次決議"},{"start":25471.603,"end":25488.944,"text":"我們聽聽看,看看有沒有不同的聲音,就跟兩邊小孩子打架一樣,我們如果每天只是在旁邊出遊怎麼泡好戲泡好戲,本來沒事打起來的時候,大家也不是鼻青臉走而已,搞不好還有傷亡"},{"start":25489.685,"end":25516.807,"text":"所以我希望說 行政院可以思考有沒有另外一個和平的聲音你們不要吵 大家協調一下講一講 也許會有另外一個安全的亮點出現請問一下 組委長兩岸現在多久沒聯繫了我們有陸委會 那請問陸委會你上一次跟大陸重要的官員對線就是熱線聯繫是什麼時候"},{"start":25520.858,"end":25529.628,"text":"報告委員我們跟中國大陸的溝通聯繫機制我們都努力在維繫住上一次對接的熱線是什麼時候"},{"start":25536.048,"end":25551.722,"text":"你講是陸委會跟國台辦的熱線是嗎你跟國台辦誰有聯絡過我們同仁都有跟他們聯繫上一次聯繫是什麼時候我們一直都有在聯繫昨天有聯繫嗎"},{"start":25552.962,"end":25575.904,"text":"不是這麼說跟報告委員我們有既有的溝通聯繫機制這些機制我們持續在進行謝謝那你們有沒有表達過兩邊可以談一談或是你要不要邀請他們比如說國台辦的主任在第三地也可以啊不借得到台灣總統府啊第三地"},{"start":25576.656,"end":25584.176,"text":"新加坡也可以在日本東京也可以大家找一個地方好好聊聊喝杯咖啡吧咖啡錢我出"},{"start":25585.606,"end":25585.966,"text":"請問你是你是邱主委吧"},{"start":25616.385,"end":25618.213,"text":"那你上一次去大陸是什麼時候"},{"start":25620.019,"end":25647.886,"text":"各位委員報告我從2016年到政府工作過那因為中國大陸無法要我們答應他統一的前提才能進行這個官方的溝通所以截至目前為止到政府來工作都沒有去不過之前常去中國大陸交流訪問你這樣不行啦你這樣那麼久的時間都沒交流那你倒不如請柯總裁去跟他交流一下"},{"start":25648.68,"end":25662.754,"text":"他搞不好比陸委員還夠力因為柯總長大家認識很久啊他能去能生對不對能喝能抽煙什麼都可以什麼他都難不倒所以院長你可以找第二管道啊"},{"start":25663.919,"end":25684.728,"text":"主委我跟他不熟但是他一表人才可是你連大陸最重要官員你都沒見過面有一句話叫做見面三分情笑臉伸手不打笑臉人你總是要有不同的角色來踹踹看院長我們現在有沒有第三管道跟大陸那邊有交流"},{"start":25686.013,"end":25698.33,"text":"報告委員 台灣願意 中華民國台灣願意也必須跟理念相同的民主夥伴國家站在一起兩岸之間我上一個會期的施政報告我提到了我希望兩岸能夠和平共榮"},{"start":25699.958,"end":25715.803,"text":"和平共榮的條件和平共榮的條件就是希望他來的就是觀光客、學生而不是來的軍機、軍艦這樣才能夠和平共榮所以我們是要求他能夠先履行這樣子對區域安全穩定的一個先期應該表現出來的態度那我們願意"},{"start":25716.963,"end":25739.218,"text":"如果他願意讓邱族偉去 我想他也願意去他願意讓我們觀光團去 我們也願意去他設限很多其實是這樣的 如果說你害怕的話我們也請一些委員大家共同陪你去做一起見證國家能夠進去一個我們希望能夠跟他溝通的地方 無所謂其實就是這個陸委會你也不要怕"},{"start":25739.818,"end":25761.88,"text":"因為卓議員長也都去過大陸啊可是我現在也不能去啦他也把我封住了不管嘛就是我們去多一點溝通就有多一點感情嘛更何況是同文同種我希望說我們這個台灣要記取烏克蘭的教訓"},{"start":25762.661,"end":25790.883,"text":"我們千萬不可以成為烏克蘭所以台灣的老百姓都是熱愛和平的可是中國也不能成為俄羅斯當然不能因為他不是俄羅斯我們也不能讓他成為俄羅斯我們希望能影響他們其實你如果說最重要的是就是這個習總書記如果有辦法很多台商跟他都有見過面想辦法用"},{"start":25791.943,"end":25816.424,"text":"民主的溫暖用民主的熱情以及中國人民的東方之子的血脈相連的個性多跟他溝通大家軍購你少一千億他少一兆兩岸不是更和諧嗎所以本席還是希望"},{"start":25817.557,"end":25845.798,"text":"主委院長可以一點點的考量走兩岸和平協議的推動這個內容我不知道你自己再試試看兩邊要是可以同意你當作一個備案不是現在提出但是希望至少還有存在一點點的空間讓大家彼此空間多一點空間多一點明天可能就會有大空間的出現"},{"start":25846.639,"end":25863.114,"text":"希望兩岸還是要和諧當然希望用交流代替對抗但是我們必須不卑不亢的如果能夠推動兩岸的和平共榮我們都願意我想只要對方也能夠持續這樣的一個心情跟態度來推動那絕對是一個好的那目前要突破的"},{"start":25863.925,"end":25891.086,"text":"我方沒有任何太大的意見對方：對台灣的企圖：跟對世界的企圖：是大家對他有所借心的好 謝謝我希望卓院長剛剛所講的這個和平的方向是多數台灣人共同的願望跟目標那陸委會現在一年的預算多少我們下個年度的是10億那今年9億多你們再好好"},{"start":25892.54,"end":25920.117,"text":"有編的錢就好好做事不要一個單位在那邊不做事那也看不到功效就很可惜另外在請院長因為時間的關係就統籌分配稅款的問題你知道一合之隔在新店像我們大坪林升第一胎的補助有多少你知道嗎新北市是2萬然後台北市第一胎補助是4萬"},{"start":25921.889,"end":25945.81,"text":"然後到了第二胎新北市的補助是兩萬臺北市的補助是四萬五千塊 反正他的比例都不一樣可是這個一水之隔 秦美錫過去就是臺北 我們這邊是大坪林就差了一個地方 福利差了兩倍"},{"start":25948.463,"end":25976.257,"text":"這個還有很多很多相關的問題所以這個原因就是統籌分配稅款這個比例不一樣所以請院長可以多多來苦民所苦就是新北人口也多人均分配的補助卻比較少這造成長期以來的不公平所以希望在這一次這個參會要開始開會了"},{"start":25977.722,"end":25977.782,"text":"請莊部長說明"},{"start":26002.271,"end":26011.78,"text":"是報告委員對於才化法那財政部已經收集各地方政府的意見也開過兩次會我們希望把意見分歧的部分"},{"start":26012.216,"end":26012.736,"text":"委員提到的是人均"},{"start":26035.03,"end":26036.01,"text":"主委長,我們已經等了25年了"},{"start":26062.83,"end":26086.872,"text":"你知道有多少以前的好朋友就是民進黨的委員他們也是主張要修啊這已經修了25年都沒修我們希望這一次可以集合大家的力量不是單方面的哪一個政黨這是大家的共識啊讓貧富懸殊不要那麼大福利的政策不要"},{"start":26087.312,"end":26095.828,"text":"電價還會漲嗎?"},{"start":26097.025,"end":26097.045,"text":"其實齁"},{"start":26118.682,"end":26143.595,"text":"有年代關係你說民生一般住家不漲可是有一些工業漲了以後它的成本一定會反映嘛反映出來運輸也漲百物齊漲萬物齊漲我記得過去吃一顆荷包蛋是沒什麼每天吃一顆荷包蛋補充蛋白質沒有什麼特別感覺"},{"start":26144.588,"end":26165.845,"text":"現在每次吃到一顆荷包蛋特別是像鐵板燒出來的一顆要多少錢你知道20塊哇這個變成吃一顆蛋是我今天生活中的小確幸所以要拜託啊 院長電不要再漲了電能不能動漲"},{"start":26167.315,"end":26185.722,"text":"因為你再漲下去很多的各行各業大家受不了A漲B漲C漲大家都跟著漲物價上漲消費者物價指數也頻頻超過2以上真的唯一不漲的就是老百姓的薪水"},{"start":26190.468,"end":26199.739,"text":"報告委員我們這一次的這個審議委員所做出來的決定就是您剛才所指正的統統部長我們指掌出口有賺錢的這些產業"},{"start":26202.315,"end":26230.1,"text":"那這產業是電子業比較多囉他是因為有賺錢然後主要是賣給國外所以我們沒有必要去補貼給國外的這些產業那 呃 郭部長我想請教這樣子對於台灣經濟的發展就是外國本來有一些大企業像NVIDIA 輝達或是很多公司本來要回來台灣設廠那會不會因為你不確定的一個電力的這個成本不會 他就不來了"},{"start":26231.318,"end":26256.951,"text":"這個我們基本的價格都是比我們的鄰居韓國日本這些我們有競爭的這個國家都要低所以現在揮打會來台灣嗎應該是會的如果揮打來台灣的話我還是要拜託那個 郭部長因為你知道嘛新店好山好水好地方交通便捷醫療設備人文薈萃是"},{"start":26259.859,"end":26277.143,"text":"這個首選拜託再轉達一下我們代表新店區所有的市民所有朋友大家一起張開雙臂歡迎回答到新店設廠是的謝謝委員我們會跟回答建議"},{"start":26278.271,"end":26298.981,"text":"拜託卓院長相關單位可以多多支持我們願意跟委員我們一起努力把整個環境投資環境能源環境把它做得更好讓國外的大廠對台灣真的深具信心願意來台灣做更多的投資好謝謝感謝那因為我來自地方有一些交通的問題我有書面還是要拜託還有一些高地自來水"},{"start":26299.765,"end":26316.429,"text":"現在欠缺的問題還是請部長也多多關心一下讓大家有水喝 有飯吃 電不要漲大家生活不要壓力那麼大一點好不好好 謝謝委員的指教謝謝羅民財委員的質詢 謝謝卓院長相關首長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":26323.899,"end":26323.979,"text":"吳立華委員請"},{"start":26359.231,"end":26364.334,"text":"謝謝主席有請行政院長再請卓院長備詢委員好今天來到這裡想要就一些原住民遇到很難合法的問題來跟院長做一個交流溝通"},{"start":26386.737,"end":26414.198,"text":"院長其實明年即將要上路的國土計劃法政府有承諾就是針對105年5月1號以前這些在我們非合法用地的這些建築物要讓它合法我們等了幾十年我們引頸期盼非常的期待但是有一些問題是顯而易見的可能要在這邊先做個溝通"},{"start":26415.481,"end":26438.042,"text":"其實原住民為什麼會有這些大量的非法建物這個是有歷史的承諾那日本人來的時候其實就以山林國有這樣的一個政策名目把所有的土地都取走除了這些具有經濟價值的土地之外留下一些給原住民蓋家屋或者是做農耕"},{"start":26439.356,"end":26454.671,"text":"國民政府來了之後其實在1974年以前我們對於這些位在非都市計劃土地的區域並沒有什麼法規限制簡單來講就是愛怎麼用愛怎麼蓋就怎麼用直到1974年訂定了區域計劃法"},{"start":26458.214,"end":26483.435,"text":"這個時候其實有一點衝突因為沒有落實調查也沒有去考量各個不同地方他的土地使用現況跟合理性所以呢就直接編定用地那會造成什麼呢像我們賴總統他們過去的主挫像礦區那邊的房子或者是像我們位在原保地原住民的這些建物一夕之間都變成了非法"},{"start":26484.136,"end":26506.59,"text":"那這個非法有什麼樣的一個問題來因為非法我們的建物也沒有辦法拿去做抵押貸款那甚至是我們位在元寶地上的這些公有建物也都是違法像是鄉公所的行政大樓啊學校啊甚至是部落的集會所啊這一些也都是違建"},{"start":26507.25,"end":26530.876,"text":"可是原民會有編列經費讓他們能夠去補照可是私人用地怎麼辦所以這個時候國土計畫就是讓我們合法化的一個希望問題來了現在我們知道的是內政部給我們數據大概有14萬棟的原住民的房子是蓋在非建地上面"},{"start":26531.736,"end":26545.233,"text":"這一些我們也要謝謝其實國土署很認真很努力因為針對這些105年5月1號以前公告以前這些的既有建物我們可以透過國土計畫的國土功能分區來處理"},{"start":26546.815,"end":26568.425,"text":"那105年以後的呢也可以用原住民的圖管規則以及一生一次這樣的一個規定也可以來處理甚至是未來我們要蓋房子我們也可以透過鄉村規劃問題是這些工具都很好但是我要跟院長報告我們可以預期沒有辦法有成效為什麼"},{"start":26569.125,"end":26587.609,"text":"因為這14萬棟的這些族人他即將要面臨的有幾大問題第一他的地用要合法第二他的建物要合法他要去做水保的合法消防的合法我們來看一下地用的合法地質敏感他要去做一個查詢規費要6000塊"},{"start":26590.53,"end":26600.027,"text":"如果他真的位在地質敏感地區 那麼他就要去做地質專探等等最後呢 減負一個安全評估報告 大概要60萬元"},{"start":26601.721,"end":26630.414,"text":"接下來呢他為了要去處理建物的合法我們原住民的房子您可以看一下像這種房子喔恐怕都只能用結構安全鑑定每年要2萬塊現在也會有污水法他污水處理呢要處理10萬塊他要面臨他要先處理他的違建罰款6萬以上然後像我們這一些房子他可能呢要用地方還要處理簡易建築的一個管理辦法"},{"start":26631.354,"end":26631.954,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26647.262,"end":26671.171,"text":"就是我們很多原住民看得到的很簡易的房子為什麼他會變成很簡易的房子因為他是賺了10萬塊他就拿來蓋10萬塊他今天家裡的孩子在外面賺了50萬他又多蓋了50萬所以這樣子修修補補縫縫補補的房子如果我們要補照可以看一下PPT要130萬要130萬我想請教院長值嗎"},{"start":26678.285,"end":26692.273,"text":"他會願意去合法嗎兩點跟委員簡單的報告我過去在台北市議會的時候就看過在台北和京郊包括南港一帶地區就很多原住民朋友住在那個地方居住環境確實是很需要改善"},{"start":26692.873,"end":26713.818,"text":"第二點 曾主委我跟他徵詢第一次請他來原民會服務的時候我就跟他談過原住民長期在都市的邊緣﹖或者是在山區裡面的居住的問題﹖土地的問題我們要想辦法來解決所以剛剛談到的這些內容現象我覺得內政部應該也會有很清楚的一個方向那我就繼續講下去"},{"start":26715.518,"end":26742.623,"text":"因為我們是希望內政部既然談到內政部像這種環境敏感地區查詢規費6000塊其實就可以不用了嘛或者是像地質敏感地區的安全評估報告我跟院長報告幾乎啦所有原住民的部落都是住在環境敏感地區啦那你說叫每一戶去鑽幾個洞做地質鑽探有必要嗎那我覺得這個政府可以就整個部落來做這個60萬也可以免了"},{"start":26743.183,"end":26762.6,"text":"那麼至於我們這一些剩下的大概要70萬的關於建物合法化的部分他要面臨剛才我講的水保計畫結構安全鑑定污水處理違規違建的罰款還有這些取得建造的這些建築師畫圖光是蓋一層樓大概就要15到20萬那我覺得"},{"start":26765.959,"end":26787.001,"text":"即便政府幫忙處理了地用的合法這些建築的合法的部分要70萬我一樣要請院長來想一想有多少戶做得到很難那我覺得面對這種歷史承諾所造成的我們要來做合法不需要去分公司"},{"start":26787.901,"end":26805.236,"text":"我覺得我看到一個很棒的特例像我每次去烏來他們都在炒因為他們是水源特定保護區他們面對土地的限制利用強度是更強的他們已經炒了好幾十年但是我看到這個北水特分署"},{"start":26805.836,"end":26830.721,"text":"他很有擔當因為他們現在開始要訂定一個原保地新建自用住宅的一個審查要點讓他們終於可以來新建可以來重建改建這些自用住宅他們怎麼做他們編定一筆經費委託協助區公所去成立這些建築污水水保的一個服務團協助減輕他們的負擔"},{"start":26833.001,"end":26859.895,"text":"那另外我知道的是內政部國土署之前跟原民會合作也有一個所謂的特定區域計畫就是在泰雅族堅實鄉的正西寶斯馬庫斯我知道的是他們告訴我說已經協助200多個用戶用地合法化了所以我覺得政府除了有心其實很多的事情是可以做得到的那我現在是希望說讓"},{"start":26862.711,"end":26863.631,"text":"院長瞭解一下"},{"start":26884.039,"end":26903.761,"text":"我們其實我們的國土長得很不一樣他是很多高山而且是直送的高山可是長期以來我們面對我們的法令的時候都是透過像中國的日本的沿用這些大陸法系沿用像德國這一些法規"},{"start":26904.582,"end":26933.098,"text":"其實我們台灣應該要有自己的法規自己的法律自己的想法我們不應該這樣子縫縫補補那樣的衣服穿了也不好看也不舒服不合身但是我們就是很感慨有一個地圖可以秀一下您看一下那個地方長的是什麼呢其實就是他們的一個農耕用地我希望那個影片要秀出來像這個農耕用地"},{"start":26934.99,"end":26956.484,"text":"這個是我們100多年前的農耕用地院長您知道這個在哪裡嗎左邊是菲律賓右邊是我們的山地門鄉100多年前的山地門鄉跟現在的菲律賓是不是長得一模一樣只是顏色不一樣這個代表什麼"},{"start":26957.861,"end":26985.216,"text":"因為菲律賓他有尊重在地人的傳統智慧去利用他們的耕作方式結果現在成為世界奇蹟我們面對日本人來國民政府來不處理我們的土地的問題在這一段時間愛怎麼用就怎麼用讓很多有經濟這些想法的人來到山上破壞了不是原住民破壞的"},{"start":26986.772,"end":27012.398,"text":"我們幾千年來就是這樣子使用土地非常的可惜這個就是因為我們沒有適用的法律來規範我們怎麼利用不同地區的土地所以我在這邊我希望說原民會一定要有這樣的擔當協助我們這些14萬動戶的族人未來面對建物合法化因為土地合法化內政部要做了"},{"start":27013.462,"end":27037.134,"text":"但是我希望原民會一定要來做一個中長程的計畫分階段的編列經費來協助我們的族人那我也希望內政部也能夠定定清楚的目標跟期程針對105年5月以前的既有建築105年5月以後的建築未來預備興建的這些研議一個用地合法化的策略"},{"start":27037.754,"end":27059.877,"text":"那也希望善用國土永續基金來訂定計劃來編列經費那最重要的是原本今年1月應該要出來的原住民族土地使用管制規則那個是國土計劃法第23條當時允諾原住民最了解自己的土地要怎麼用允諾我們可以自己來制定"},{"start":27060.377,"end":27086.082,"text":"但是我知道的是好幾進好幾退為什麼還是一樣觀念的問題沒有辦法兜攏那我們是希望說都要上路了應該要趕快的公佈讓我們原住民族土地使用管制規則能夠讓大家清楚的知道我們未來可以怎麼使用我們的土地所以我在這邊希望院長能夠同意是不是可以找一個行政院政務委員來做一個任務編組"},{"start":27087.222,"end":27111.894,"text":"報告委員 這個土地使用管制規則應該這個月內政部還在積極的有延商協議的會議當中我是希望能夠就同意原民會啦我可不可以跟委員補充一下齁您所講的部分我講成功的案例啦在9月24的新聞裡面 太八郎的全台第一例是國土計劃法下面一個鄉村地區整體規劃已經有妥善的土地規劃"},{"start":27112.714,"end":27136.13,"text":"然後你剛有提到說在這個鄭希寶的部分有這個200多筆的土地合法化的部分表示說原民會還有內政部願意一起來做協助來做輔導還有你提到說有關於原住民的土地規則的草案的部分免付環境敏感地區的查詢在105年5月以前的既有建築物全部是由政府吸收規費5800元"},{"start":27145.756,"end":27157.984,"text":"國土計劃法在每一個縣市尤其有原住民鄉鎮的這個功能分居土要送上來那我想你也非常清楚像新竹市花蓮縣他們已經陸陸續續都送上來這裡面都有原住民的部落"},{"start":27163.647,"end":27171.492,"text":"跟委員報告我們這裡一定我們10月7號就會跟內政部再開第三次的這個會議希望能夠站在原住民的立場"},{"start":27172.51,"end":27196.901,"text":"讓原住民的土地能夠實用得更好我們會努力的拜託委員剛剛部長所說的那些內容政府會來解說的你可以更新一下這個內容跟原住民的朋友報告國土計畫法我希望能夠依據聯合國他的一個FPIC事前之前同意原則持續的要求各部會要跟族人揭露資訊這樣可以嗎"},{"start":27198.319,"end":27200.041,"text":"總而言之我們上路已經一年半了"},{"start":27214.221,"end":27242.276,"text":"但是上路以來取得合法錄音證的是0完全沒有那為什麼會完全沒有因為他申請合法也是很難包括我剛剛講的查詢的規費6000取得建造的每年2萬水保檢疫的30到60萬不等還有他的污水處理20到30萬不等然後呢很多人都跟我講說算了他已經花了130萬還是不行算了為什麼"},{"start":27242.876,"end":27269.235,"text":"因為我們的部會不同調光是帳篷砧板這種可以移動的我們一樣的市府公文問觀光署問農業部回答完全不一樣我們光是因為設施到底要不要一定要位在環境敏感地區我們的交通部內政部講的也不一樣所以到目前是0所以我希望這個部分 院長你可以責成政委來協助做跨部會好不好"},{"start":27270.436,"end":27279.685,"text":"推動觀光的政策是我們的重要的施政目標我請政委來協調好 謝謝院長 謝謝各位首長 謝謝主席謝謝吳立華委員指引 謝謝卓院長相關首長的備詢官員會現在我們休息10分鐘 休息之後繼續進行質詢 現在休息"},{"start":27917.865,"end":27944.066,"text":"貿易會現在我們繼續開會接下來我們請陳永康委員質詢院長各位立院的同仁各位政府的首長大家好各位媒體朋友好有請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":27954.281,"end":27979.727,"text":"陳委員好 組委員長你好今天的問政是聚焦在動態的國際情勢變化以及我們國安情勢如何這一個適度的反應那麼實際上我們是提供政府比較精進的一些做法與建言我想可以從這個圖像看出來我們要看的實際上是一個大格局的視野而不是聚焦在一個純粹島嶼的台灣"},{"start":27982.349,"end":28002.895,"text":"那麼現在國際情勢的變化萬千那麼面對這個動態的局勢變化對任何一個國家的國安問題都是一個挑戰那如果沒有一個完整的構想一個架構各位可以從這個圖上看出來因為鬼局難測的"},{"start":28013.15,"end":28035.431,"text":"國際情勢,比如說俄國戰爭,到今天已經打了950天以哈戰爭也打了一年多,那麼馬上可能爆發規模升高的這個是伊朗跟以色列的軍事衝突都不是我們能夠完全掌握的,那麼因為訊息甚多"},{"start":28037.023,"end":28064.738,"text":"來源不同展示的報告方式不同媒體不同所以我這邊強烈建議就是先建立一個共同圖像的平台那麼我們可以用比較進步的高科技比方講用GIS ARCGIS然後把國際的圖把它經過校正涵蓋國際圖區域圖亞太圖台灣周遭圖因此台海問題它連結到"},{"start":28067.369,"end":28067.809,"text":"同樣在亞洲的問題﹚"},{"start":28076.243,"end":28104.077,"text":"南海的周邊通通是一環扣一環所以我們要有一個宏觀的看法但是要有微觀細緻的掌握從上到下明確政策指導從下往上力道的支撐能量的展示這要同步作為因此這張圖就是告訴我們為什麼我們要產生基於國家安全我們想到了社會的堅韌民心安定經濟繁榮軍事堅強"},{"start":28107.492,"end":28136.149,"text":"臺海的和平這裏面包括了國安的幾個重要的環節政治面外交面經濟面軍事面其實這都跟兩岸相關另外有關能源社會醫療產業它都是基建相關因此在這個條件下有一個完整的國家安全戰略透過跨部會的橫向協調它可以在比較短的時間做出一個正確比較正確性高的判斷"},{"start":28137.389,"end":28157.044,"text":"像這個環境下 我們不只是做風險控管 情勢控管 衝突的控管我們要做到災害的管制 損管的管制在這個底下 我們看到由陳峰指導 有國安會 有行政院的各位同仁"},{"start":28157.745,"end":28157.885,"text":"主席"},{"start":28173.84,"end":28198.898,"text":"健康臺灣推動委員會﹖它跟各個部會是有關聯性﹖但是因為它不是一個編制內的﹖它是一個任務那邊的﹖所以因為人事的調動﹖或者因為選舉的結果﹖難免會產生一個變化﹖而就是造成了一個不是延續性的成果﹖那即便現在最近報紙上登出來了﹖我們社會﹖這個全社會防任性核心任務﹖"},{"start":28199.98,"end":28229.421,"text":"有五個主軸但是這個主軸上面的交集支撐以及下面的基礎設施哪些還要強化這個我們還要看到政府持續把細節告知國際情勢變化萬千風險是常存在的但是如果因為國際的關係或是政策面這兩者加上模糊不確定我們就會遇到有一個危機的展示"},{"start":28230.418,"end":28230.638,"text":"委員．第12屆第3次會議"},{"start":28253.988,"end":28276.955,"text":"法制性的國家安全戰略因此在某些狀況下各位可以看到資源的分配不均策略不容易同調跨部會的協調如果不是陳峰或者是院長出來召集就會產生一些困難我們也希望在這個裡面政務委員跨部會協調要扮演更積極的角色"},{"start":28281.676,"end":28295.132,"text":"主要是強調國家安全戰略是指導各部會在風險的不確定性下預印計劃對模糊的態勢要妥善的預印而不是等待世界發生再做反應"},{"start":28297.133,"end":28324.408,"text":"尤其是全世界在各種專案裡面沒有最佳方案只有妥適方案因此我們是在最佳跟最壞中間要找到一個可以接受較佳的預期結果因此國家安全戰略我們在推動是希望基於國家的安全社會的繁榮民主法治能夠持續下去這個不分政黨"},{"start":28325.253,"end":28352.344,"text":"那麼大家共同的努力所以各位可以看到在這個國內的情勢下影響他的包括經濟的穩定社會韌性能源的保障資訊安全人口結構官僚體系政黨形式傳媒輿論宗教文化環境保護國會的結構通通有關聯因此立法院的委員會其實他並不是單一的對象尤其是在國際情勢上面"},{"start":28353.13,"end":28381.884,"text":"區域的威脅 有謀的變質 國際組織 國際法律資訊安全 氣候變遷 能源膽缺 重大的國際性的傳染病這都影響這兩個不同的輸入產生了綜合評估國家安全戰略的重要項目比方講兩岸的情勢 社會的韌性這中間包含了國防 外交 經濟 能源 治安 人口政策最後國家安全戰略是什麼促進繁榮 確保民主"},{"start":28383.815,"end":28405.91,"text":"強化安全因此在目前我們政府尚沒有擔部國家安全戰略的這個情況下我們面對的一些要克服的困難我們的預期目標是政府發布這個國家安全戰略確保國家的安全維持太海和平的穩定那我們有行動的重心"},{"start":28407.491,"end":28429.908,"text":"執行的手段這個東西都可以透過跨部會的溝通我們持續強化讓他做的更周延資源有限時間有限人力有限如何在比較短的時間內我們做出一個控管情勢讓政府更穩定的向前邁進國家安全戰略是一個不可或缺的一個重要支柱"},{"start":28432.885,"end":28457.746,"text":"在兩年前的國慶政府團隊表示我們要建立強韌型的國家四大韌性已經講了經濟產業社會安全網國防戰力民主自由體制這是一個很好的目標但是怎麼樣去努力達成在今年總統就職滿月的時候也強調了社會防韌性"},{"start":28459.361,"end":28465.185,"text":"強化國防、民生、災防、民主四大韌性同時面對不對稱作戰應具備的戰略思維諸多牽動"},{"start":28470.335,"end":28496.982,"text":"主動權的變數很多是受國外國際形勢的影響我們要建立營造國安環境建設性的關係民生與國防的合一這個就是國家韌性的關鍵因素所以國防跟民生這兩個不要切割在國家安全戰略裡面可以相互包容可以做協調而不是單獨聚焦在國防上"},{"start":28497.822,"end":28520.893,"text":"你要如何軍購如何建立你的防衛能力而這邊如何維持不斷水不斷電不斷網能源能進這個要相互支持作為一個海洋國家海洋戰略其實是國防戰略的一環那麼海上交通線的維護海欄的維持衛星的通訊這個都是息息相關的"},{"start":28523.083,"end":28523.363,"text":"主席"},{"start":28539.514,"end":28539.534,"text":"委員："},{"start":28563.814,"end":28577.995,"text":"﹚"},{"start":28580.114,"end":28608.836,"text":"另外就是說我們在原則核心戰術占據下未來都是趨勢就是所謂的無人化可是無人化的系統並不是載台本身而是你的通訊指管那麼以及所謂的接戰規定交戰規則ROE這些是分層負責每個層級都不一樣的那後面我再向大家做一個敘述的方法"},{"start":28610.203,"end":28636.797,"text":"這是參考美軍從白宮美國總統國安會跟國防部以及國務院他們如何把他的政策指導下售管理到印太司令部再管理到駐日美軍駐海美軍甚至海上的艦隊分層負責全責下落但是他們有一個共同的基礎就是"},{"start":28637.748,"end":28660.931,"text":"共同圖像 也就是說從高層看 到區域看 到基層看它的聯合作戰圖像 到戰術畫面上下互通在這種情況下 有確定明確的交戰規則 分層負責 全責下售那這個叫做decentralize 不是去中心化 它是全責下售"},{"start":28662.044,"end":28675.794,"text":"最糟糕的狀況下就是某些情況下的通訊不通他的下級部隊知道行為準則該負的責任承擔的責任任務而不要再請示所以這個圖像可以看出來了"},{"start":28677.188,"end":28682.75,"text":"COP共同圖像CTP他跟目前我們所謂的聯合情監偵是一貫性的從上到下從下到上"},{"start":28692.995,"end":28693.055,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":28722.389,"end":28744.329,"text":"報告書裏面講的去中心化﹖其實它不是目標﹖它是中間的一個手段﹖也就是說當你的指管部分通訊能力中斷的時候﹖你的下一級單位根據平時的任務賦予﹖跟作戰計劃原本的參與感﹖橫向協調不斷﹖雖然上下有些溝通中斷﹖"},{"start":28745.99,"end":28769.879,"text":"他能夠承擔這個責任 這個並不是去中心化而是分散配置 全責下售 那麼他是一種方法他並不是說我們的陳峰恆山指揮所 你的功能就要降低了所以從這個觀念是建立一個完整的戰場環境的掌控 透過比較高科技的資料鏈路分享"},{"start":28774.11,"end":28797.281,"text":"二無戰爭打到今天是953天可是一般人都講這個烏克蘭的經驗或者是加薩的經驗我們該學習學習我們同意這種看法但狀況不同的是這個領土面積烏克蘭是台灣的16.7倍人口只有2.3倍"},{"start":28799.397,"end":28822.711,"text":"但是大家都不知道我們的人口密度是8.7比1可是現在烏克蘭已經有1000萬人到歐洲去了所以真正我們的人口密度是10比1可是我們的人均電力消耗我們是烏克蘭的3.4到3.5倍看看這個從5月開始他這是一個動態的每天在跑"},{"start":28826.277,"end":28846.086,"text":"如果我們有一個共同圖像,我們去看一下9月11開始的烏東的戰場,就那一小塊,烏克蘭佔領的。可是真正的在頓內斯克、盧甘斯克這個作戰的範圍,兩個台灣都塞進去了。我們能夠把那個例子套進來嗎?不行的。"},{"start":28848.479,"end":28872.895,"text":"成功的經驗我們當然要學習但是並不是百分之百的可以複製但是他付出的慘痛教訓我們要避免發生這裏面包括烏克蘭的部隊已經旅籍單位都已經重整兩次了因為他的指管鏈路是受美國的Starlink提供從在西部的指揮所到前線"},{"start":28874.141,"end":28903.2,"text":"他必須全責下授因此烏克蘭是說去中心化但是在以色列跟加薩走廊以色列是完全掌握各位看這個是以色列的加薩走廊那這種情況下以色列就沒有所謂的去中心化所以我們在這兩個不同的戰場環境下我們學習人家成功的經驗但是不是完全複製但他犯的錯誤我們不要付第二次的學費"},{"start":28908.629,"end":28923.23,"text":"我們可以用校正過的圖像 各位可以很清楚的看到臺灣在這 烏克蘭在這可是現在伊朗打以色列在這個位置"},{"start":28924.793,"end":28925.753,"text":"9月22號中共打導彈"},{"start":28951.994,"end":28953.635,"text":"這張圖是有坐標經緯度跟落點當然這是根據工情"},{"start":28980.205,"end":29007.813,"text":"所以這是它的彈道高度把這種圖像跨部會分享對我們國際事務的反應上可以提供一個比較客觀的看法而不必對部分就是說名嘴媒體帶風向說我們掌握不住或是他主導多少這個是可以分享的一個資料那同樣這個右邊圖這是昨天的就是我們的"},{"start":29011.888,"end":29033.002,"text":"我們現在關心的圖並不是只有臺灣周遭東海 台海 南海整體的現象我們都關心 比方講談到中共穿越東邊出來走宮古水道可是宮古島的位置這個石垣島的位置與那國島的位置大家都聽到名字 並不知道在哪裡"},{"start":29034.346,"end":29059.403,"text":"中共跟菲律賓最近在南海潛在的衝突但並沒有發生軍事衝突而是執法行為的衝突所謂的黃岩島這個先兵礁或者是仁愛礁大家都知道可是位置在哪裡其實在這個圖像上我們都可以把它做出來也就是說透過圖像的整合把所有的現象讓國人"},{"start":29062.498,"end":29090.711,"text":"的同仁同步分享做建言的時候做政策決定的時候可以縮短決策的時間像右邊的這張圖我們陸軍同仁到現在還在用公元2000年的UTM坐標圖目前已經開始做數據化但是還要花一點時間可是即便數化完成了這個圖還要跟海圖航圖共同校正也就是說陸軍的長官他的看的事情"},{"start":29091.471,"end":29091.611,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":29111.63,"end":29111.77,"text":"主席"},{"start":29131.932,"end":29154.73,"text":"行政院內的國土安全辦公室目前是協調我們建議建立起這套其實不難的工具平台它可以顯示了所有的超高壓配電廠變電所像在右邊這個資料圖上都可以顯示套上衛星圖"},{"start":29158.199,"end":29159.9,"text":"臺北市多少座變電所還有在超高壓板橋的都可以顯示"},{"start":29179.383,"end":29179.803,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":29198.524,"end":29198.684,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":29212.15,"end":29212.971,"text":"有效應急支援﹚"},{"start":29236.613,"end":29236.673,"text":"主席"},{"start":29258.473,"end":29258.493,"text":"臺風系統"},{"start":29273.398,"end":29298.64,"text":"今天早上6點鐘的那實際上你背後看到的是海上的商船都避開這塊區塊那這個東西都可以直接到災防中心那麼最後一張圖就是我們作戰跟救災可以分享共同用平台共同分享做一個整合的虛擬式的戰情顯示包括我們的國安的這個重要軸向"},{"start":29301.8,"end":29326.121,"text":"他國的演習 周遭的環境 包括重大的新聞及時顯示充分運用共同圖像 融合 略過 表層現象 交叉比對 信息圖像避免錯判 勿帶風向 強化掌握情勢真相 平站狀況要全程掌握"},{"start":29328.66,"end":29328.68,"text":"王國興議員"},{"start":29345.919,"end":29365.347,"text":"向所有的電網如果故障在哪裡可以讓每個部會首長知道而不需要用打電話去記錄這是一個現在的工具可以很快強化功能的那麼我們建議也是能夠邀請政務委員來做一個跨部會的強化協調"},{"start":29368.396,"end":29378.256,"text":"作戰中心跟指揮中心我們用的資料庫與戰線顯示圖必須要整合而不是各單位使用各單位的"},{"start":29379.634,"end":29407.556,"text":"我今天主要的問政是強化這個韌性包括微波包括衛星包括海嵐那這個部分是不是請速發部的部長給我們做一點說明報告委員那個衛星的部分就地軌衛星我們今年預計會建置大概773個地面站那到今天為止已經有一半差不多370幾個站已經ready可以用"},{"start":29408.257,"end":29431.683,"text":"那在過去裡面這些戰已經發生一些效用比如說在這些0403的那個地震已經發生已經發揮一些效果那這個東西我們現在是分布到全省各地包括這次颱風我們有部件在屏東跟高雄跟台南都有一些還不錯的結果所以這個目前是有在運作"},{"start":29432.718,"end":29447.812,"text":"微星本來就是我們一直在佈建的包括跟離島都有微星站的通信也都有安全的使用跟開通報告委員我在英國我自己試過Wi-Fi微星"},{"start":29448.473,"end":29448.793,"text":"李卓人"},{"start":29463.596,"end":29487.403,"text":"地面戰目前用的是泰國的日本是關島關島的對我們是未來希望能夠地面戰能夠建制當然這個在合約談判裡面還要強化另外就是有部分跟國防安全分享的國防的部分我希望這個顧部長這邊能夠了解我們國軍的需求因為有些東西跟速發部當初構建的這個談的這個"},{"start":29489.804,"end":29489.904,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":29513.247,"end":29527.657,"text":"跟委員報告,委員的指導這個有關通訊指管的韌性的重要性,這是國軍一向是非常重視的。那我們跟數碼部也一直維持一個密切的一個溝通。"},{"start":29531.897,"end":29549.937,"text":"在通訊的這個韌性的加強上面一直想要設防努力那當然我們自己也有我們國安部本身通訊執管的韌性那跟有盟國家之間所建構的那這個部分比較機敏所以就可能不適宜在這裡做說明"},{"start":29551.278,"end":29567.816,"text":"但是呢就可以說明的部分當然就是我們要跟蘇阿布那麼來全力的來配合來達成我們整個全政府的到時候維持這個政府持續運作的一個通訊的一個韌性的維護這個也是必要的"},{"start":29569.497,"end":29598.318,"text":"另外那個共同圖像部分希望部長再指導共同圖像的部分委員指導的非常正確就是說我們應該要有一個全政府的共同圖像但是我在這邊跟委員分享就是說這個全政府的共同圖像還是要分出機敏跟非機敏的部分你不可能將我們這個部分的共同圖像跟所有跨部會都做分享那這樣的話我們就沒有這個機敏的可能性"},{"start":29598.918,"end":29614.479,"text":"所以在要建構一個全政府的共同圖像而且這個全政府共同圖像是具有韌性的那這個是非常重要的但是哪些是屬於全跨部會之間應該要可以共同分享的然後讓決策者來"},{"start":29616.321,"end":29618.243,"text":"這件事情我們應該要來努力的事情"},{"start":29630.563,"end":29656.936,"text":"好 謝謝那我們請院長最後給我們一點指導謝謝委員上一次上個會期到現在兩次的總之選都聆聽到委員非常精闢專業的而且是圖文非常精緻那麼我相信也給國防部很大的一個衝擊我們的設備我們的準備也應該要超越這個才是國家的水準那剛剛委員談到內容相當的豐富至少對我來講有兩個觀念"},{"start":29658.843,"end":29672.67,"text":"是在委員提出的這個論點當中我感覺到就是第一個我們必須承擔風險但是選擇一個較佳的結果我想這個政治上也是一樣軍事上也是一樣另外一個我們在講去中心化"},{"start":29673.649,"end":29693.824,"text":"但更重要的是這個責任全責下送之後有沒有能力來承擔得起這個去中心化之後是不是所有的單位可以再承擔得起以應各種緊急或是需要之所需我想這個都是我們在訓練過程當中甚至在演練過程當中必須去加強的"},{"start":29694.83,"end":29706.92,"text":"所以我想這一套非常精緻的這個圖文跟上一次我也請副部長在會後再跟委員請教上次一樣我想我們都會受教很多那麼能夠聽到這樣的事情我也認為"},{"start":29709.266,"end":29731.085,"text":"知己知彼不一定百善百勝但知道知己知彼之後我們才能知道自助人助我們自己要做更多的努力這個我想整個國軍整個國安系統都會在朝這個方向多多的努力非常謝謝委員的指教謝謝部長謝謝院長以及各位今天在座的同仁謝謝謝謝委員指教謝謝陳永康委員的質詢謝謝卓院長相關部會所長的備詢"},{"start":29740.939,"end":29744.464,"text":"接下來我們請登記第54號李昆哲委員質詢"},{"start":29766.786,"end":29777.518,"text":"謝謝主席請一下卓院長還有國防部顧部長經濟部郭部長麻煩再請卓院長相關部會事項備詢"},{"start":29786.377,"end":29801.754,"text":"好 院長好保障人民生命財產安全是行政院最重要的工作那這一次山陀台風對南部尤其是高雄造成重大的鋒利的這樣的一個衝擊跟傷害"},{"start":29803.455,"end":29823.545,"text":"在整個過程裡面我也要先謝謝卓院長不管是台電或自來水公司、水利署以及相關的部會在整個尤其是國軍這個部分的協助希望能夠盡快的讓高雄市民的生活恢復正常在這邊我首先要請"},{"start":29824.685,"end":29838.081,"text":"左院長能不能指示國防部來加派人力因為整個風力瞬間陣風最強達到17級我想左院長也看到電視貨櫃整個被風這樣吹翻過來觸目驚心那整個道路"},{"start":29844.128,"end":29861.753,"text":"重大的這種大型的樹木啊真的是都整片了所以說今天停止上班上課就是因為整個路啊大型的樹木倒成一片還有相關的玻璃碎片造成相關的安全以及校園樹木也都倒很多"},{"start":29862.794,"end":29882.915,"text":"也謝謝國軍第8軍團已經派了一千位的我們國軍弟兄來協助救災例如三民區就有一百位林亞區也有一百位但是人力還是不足這個顧部長我們能不能加派人力以及我們現在最需要就是大型的這些"},{"start":29883.896,"end":29888.4,"text":"跟委員報告我一直在跟八軍團一直保持聯繫現在就是說只要地方政府提出需求我們就盡量的會加派"},{"start":29907.614,"end":29913.498,"text":"國務大臣提醒你在燕巢有個陸軍工兵訓練中心所稱的工兵學校這邊大型的機械車輛應該是有"},{"start":29930.871,"end":29937.075,"text":"相關人力請盡快調配協助高雄市恢復恢復恢復恢復恢復恢復恢復"},{"start":29954.767,"end":29978.099,"text":"我想八千團裡面有相當的那個鏈鋸就可以鋸斷那個數我們一定會全力支援有關的部長我們就加派人力加派車輛加派大型的機械對那至於要把他抓到那個部分上面去有沒有問題但是我們人力上如果說這個高雄人力不足我們就加派人力來協助加派大型的機械有沒有問題"},{"start":29982.261,"end":29986.585,"text":"臺電加緊調派人力目前到下午3點半為止大概還有39000戶還沒有恢復供電這個部分請郭部長說明一下"},{"start":30009.185,"end":30009.605,"text":"高雄市市長"},{"start":30029.622,"end":30043.579,"text":"晚上大概8點今天晚上12點以前這個作為目標8點就能夠恢復全部的用電嗎這個是我們的目標因為有一些就像您剛才講道路的問題我們是不是能夠搶進"},{"start":30045.021,"end":30045.361,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":30068.223,"end":30071.905,"text":"院長最後我再請教院長有關於救災的問題不管是7月25號的楷米颱風也謝謝院長第一時間針對50公分以上的我們相關的這個"},{"start":30097.557,"end":30097.677,"text":"主席"},{"start":30117.049,"end":30142.541,"text":"給高雄市民即時的溫暖對於市民的恢復正常生活是幫助非常的大接下來就是說 院長也到高雄市來視察相關的滯洪設施也提到說 在我們現場的市長以及我們在地民力代表立委的要求院長也很明快的做出這樣的一個說明跟補充就是說"},{"start":30142.841,"end":30158.08,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":30158.769,"end":30171.127,"text":"中長期的可能就是要到明年的預算或是看相關的前瞻預算有沒有剩餘款這個部分支水的預算是非常重要的那我最主要說這個院長這個35億的預算現在有沒有問題"},{"start":30175.554,"end":30196.366,"text":"我希望它不成為問題因為它成為問題的話就會變成大家共同的問題因為這不只是高雄市相關的治水的預算是全台灣各縣市不分黨派重要的治水預算防災的預算因為你現在是極端氣候這種極端氣候的思念各縣市都有可能面臨相關的重大的風災水災"},{"start":30198.647,"end":30221.492,"text":"臺美颱風之後我們增加了159億總數達到551億的系統性治水我希望他一定要能夠適時的派上用場另外院長我有提到說在2010年法納比颱風也是造成高雄市的重大水災的災情"},{"start":30221.992,"end":30222.292,"text":"主席"},{"start":30252.472,"end":30276.486,"text":"像院長所知道的在這一次7月25號的這樣的一個凱利颱風所造成的這個衝擊對三民區對高雄市這個大樓就有影響那記得在法納比颱風的時候當時的市長陳菊市長有向中央申請相關的補助有一筆3500萬的相關的補助"},{"start":30281.149,"end":30307.878,"text":"來資助相關的基電設施的復原但是卓院長在全國的救災施政的標準都是有一致的這樣的標準跟程序那這個部分是不是院長會將相關大樓的這些地下室的基電設施例如說我們那邊的一棟大樓他的基金只有200萬但是他整體修復基電、電梯、消防等等的配電設施加起來要300多萬"},{"start":30309.458,"end":30318.823,"text":"就是因為他們是大樓他們沒有什麼50公分以上或50公分以下的這種補助那這種行政院會不會去做思考去做調整或是來給予補助請院長說明"},{"start":30321.186,"end":30321.206,"text":"財務部長"},{"start":30342.251,"end":30365.698,"text":"產生新的問題或是發覺新的問題像今年我們對住家之外的小店家小商店本來以前也沒有任何的補助今年我們也特別有一些新的狀況新的補助的情形那委員兩三次都隨循到這個大樓底下機電設備那我現在手中的資料好像是有91棟的大樓在前一次開明颱風有受到損失"},{"start":30366.118,"end":30366.978,"text":"實際的狀況之後我會跟部長再做精密的一個研究"},{"start":30395.486,"end":30395.826,"text":"交通部陳士凱"},{"start":30418.637,"end":30436.651,"text":"陳部長您好,針對這種極端型氣候對於我們交通安全的衝擊是非常的大,尤其這一次的三坨爾颱風不管是公路系統或是鐵道系統,它相關受到風災衝擊之後相關安全的檢視是非常重要"},{"start":30437.231,"end":30458.05,"text":"當然我們會基於公班他們在復原的這樣狀況安全是最重要的第二是安全的這樣道路不管是鐵道公路的安全品質足不足以負荷人民的這種交通的需求那這次風災之後你們針對公路以及鐵路有沒有相關的這樣一個檢視的程序呢"},{"start":30459.302,"end":30481.769,"text":"報告委員您比較關心的部分全台的這個公路系統我們現在也都有固定定期的這個邊坡的檢視像今天在基隆那個國一高速公路基隆南下的部分在上高速公路的地方邊坡就坍塌了也造成淹水所以就早上先封閉一直到10點半這個部分我們針對邊坡會做一個總體檢"},{"start":30483.69,"end":30506.736,"text":"在這次的颱風過後會做一個總體檢所以高速公路的部分是這個樣子那公路跟鐵路的部分其實大家比較擔心的會是東部的部分那東部的部分因為4月3號的這個地震之後那個邊坡其實是非常的鬆動所以我們幾個防治的作為第一個就是說跟氣象署合作我們做一個QPE Plus的一個系統"},{"start":30508.296,"end":30525.461,"text":"針對上面最上邊波的氣候的管理如果有比較嚴重的下雨或者是比較極端的氣候的狀況的時候我們會先有一個告警那另外在中邊波的部分我們會跨部會的跟例如說農業部例如說水利組來做合作做這個告警系統"},{"start":30526.041,"end":30544.358,"text":"那另外針對公路跟鐵路的聯防的部分我們自己也有建構自己的告警系統我們總共建置了26處在崇德跟是河仁中間部長剛才有提到有關東部的鐵路及公路相關的交通安全那在東部的公路跟鐵路的交通安全裡面有一段最重要就是河仁跟崇德之間"},{"start":30545.939,"end":30559.835,"text":"他不管是有原本的這種蘇花案的計畫改善計畫也在這個路段裡面以及相關的台九縣他相關的這樣的一個土石流或這樣一個零流崩塌的情形也非常的嚴重"},{"start":30560.436,"end":30586.378,"text":"更因為這一段河壬跟崇德之間接下來造成台鐵相關的這些軌道的淹沒等等這些對於民眾的安全衝擊非常的大讓民眾有個安全的道路所以在相關的我們針對河壬崇德不管是所謂的蘇花安或者是台九線或者是台鐵公司相關的安全現在你們處理的程序跟進度是如何"},{"start":30587.294,"end":30615.751,"text":"報告委員我們目前有26處的告警系統都已經完成在北回也好宜蘭也好臺東也好花蓮這一段比較危險的地方那另外針對容易落石跟土石流的部分有8處的這個實體的阻隔以及告警系統我們在明年的4月份會完成那另外我們還會建置15處針對鐵路跟公路的比較危險的地段我們在明年的年中之前也會完成這個告警系統部長你要加強這些邊坡的預警以及"},{"start":30616.491,"end":30616.711,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":30633.949,"end":30661.43,"text":"臺20高雄的明霸客路橋它的便道又被沖毀什麼時候可以復原你掌握狀況報告委員我們盡量在趕明天晚上6點之前讓它完成人車都可以通行的狀態在明天晚上18點也是6點之前這個部分要加強的做我們對於臺鐵的交通安全其實是非常重視以及相關的公路系統這個院長也會來督促交通部針對人民不管是哪個區域西部東部也好"},{"start":30661.93,"end":30667.819,"text":"對於交通的便利安全一定有一個權利的督促來部長院長最後簡單說明"},{"start":30669.073,"end":30670.154,"text":"謝謝李坤哲委員的質詢謝謝主委院長跟相關首長的備詢"},{"start":30698.976,"end":30723.099,"text":"接下來我們請登記第55號徒權及委員質詢好謝謝院長謝謝主席那請我們卓院長還有我們的經濟部郭部長麻煩再請卓院長郭部長備詢"},{"start":30731.598,"end":30734.573,"text":"圖文好好 院長好 部長好"},{"start":30735.353,"end":30760.682,"text":"那針對這次山脫颱風襲台當然在災前防台跟災後重建的工作上也感謝我們國軍警消人員還有我們很多的行政體系相關的同仁所做的努力那當然我們也是可以肯定也感謝他們辛苦了那針對這次山脫颱風主要造成南台灣的影響數字比較嚴重 院長"},{"start":30764.379,"end":30765.079,"text":"請問他正式登錄的時候是幾號?"},{"start":30785.18,"end":30786.041,"text":"昨天的12點40分"},{"start":30815.42,"end":30818.121,"text":"這部分的停電應該是外力造成目前我們收到的訊息"},{"start":30843.072,"end":30847.036,"text":"是外力造成短暫時間的停電對 針對這部分其實我們是有問過台電啦台電的說法是說他是當然又歸咎於說電力潰線的跳脫那其實針對"},{"start":30860.991,"end":30881.179,"text":"電力潰線跳脫在桃園 其實如果部長有瞭解 院長應該也可以掌握一下桃園最近這個講台電說潰線跳脫停電 真的不知道講了多少次那我們針對這一次 你看 颱風10月3號才到 它10月2號就大規模停電"},{"start":30882.259,"end":30903.575,"text":"所以這對我們地方桃園的影響真的非常大而且我們看一下我們網路的統計我們針對網路統計針對我們今年十大跳電熱議的城市你看第一名桃園市它在網路的聲量根據網路溫度計看這個網路溫度計它的統計"},{"start":30906.397,"end":30935.356,"text":"高達21萬5千多你看他比第二名的新北台北多了18萬多而且桃園市第一名這個聲量比後面第二名加到第10名後面9個縣市加起來熱議的程度都還多很多也就表示剛好也證明了桃園這個跳電的頻率真的高於很多其他的縣市所以我不知道說院長跟部長有沒有注意到這個問題"},{"start":30938.659,"end":30957.031,"text":"這個問題我們一直在關注主要是因為這個桃園的這個搬進桃園住的人比較多那第二個因為有一些設施是比較老舊所以因為這兩個元素造成他比較容易跳電那我們現在對這個電網韌性"},{"start":30959.087,"end":30989.087,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":30989.367,"end":31011.397,"text":"全部整治其實剛剛部長也有提到在2022年也確實我們正式公告要投資5600多億針對強韌電網的計畫其實我們現在想了解就是說其實已經做了兩年多當然剛剛部長也有講期許明年能夠完成我們也樂觀其成"},{"start":31012.037,"end":31027.125,"text":"所以這一部分真的也想請部長那當然院長也幫我們多重視一下這個停電的問題對民眾真的造成非常非常大的困擾而且我要替我們桃園市民真的來報區你看我們桃園有五大電廠觀音大壇電廠"},{"start":31029.346,"end":31029.586,"text":"主席"},{"start":31051.664,"end":31078.347,"text":"平率最高而且每次都是先停那我不知道說對我們這個周邊設這麼多電廠在這邊我們常常講我們這邊很多的民眾又要忍受這麼多的污染忍受對市民健康那麼大的影響而且每次跳電停電次數又多每次都首當其衝所以希望這一部分我們院長部長真的要幫我們重視一下"},{"start":31078.988,"end":31105.235,"text":"好的謝謝委員桃園市是一個新興的人口在短時間內快速成長的一個都市所以他的整個剛剛部長所說的用電的負荷是明顯超過他現在老舊電網所能夠負荷的所以我們非常重視我還記得在6月份的時候我就已經到過桃園去看一個現場在修護這個電線的台電工人給他們加油鼓勵也同時對整個桃園區我們希望能夠"},{"start":31105.795,"end":31109.178,"text":"我希望部長院長有空可以到我們沿海去視察一下其實我們沿海真的是非常支持民進黨的"},{"start":31130.658,"end":31157.419,"text":"是一個我們民主聖地你看他那麼多支持民進黨的我們也希望我們來的都是建設能夠好好照顧我們沿海的鄉親那桃園市的民眾為了地方也能源政策也設了那麼多的電廠希望這邊我們中央行政院跟部長能夠來重視水電民生的維持人民的需求我們一律一視同仁好謝謝"},{"start":31160.507,"end":31161.268,"text":"交通部長、經濟部部長"},{"start":31174.073,"end":31199.826,"text":"因為後面等一下還有你的議題那針對這部分也跟院長報告院長跟我們陳士凱部長其實我們知道我們大家都是地方議員出身那當然我們地方議員出身其實我們都是最基層的所以基層民間的聲音我們都了解那今天提這個地方的交通建設需求也希望我們院長跟部長能夠多重視一下"},{"start":31200.899,"end":31224.003,"text":"那當然首先我們先感謝交通部這一部分也要謝謝我們交通部針對我們桃園市陽梅深深路延伸到中山南路的審改計畫這一筆4.6億也感謝交通部的幫忙讓這筆經費能夠保留下來匡列在114年到118年那這部分也要感謝我們"},{"start":31224.656,"end":31239.261,"text":"交通部的支持跟協助那我想請問一下我們陳部長請問針對國道1號楊梅頭份段的拓寬工程這個工程不知道部長了解嗎基礎上應該了解"},{"start":31240.302,"end":31262.99,"text":"那因為這部分我在3月份的時候也跟當時的交通部長有跟當時的部長來拜託因為國道1號楊梅道頭份拓寬工程當時交通部說沒有設閘道沒有設交流道所以我們地方造成非常大的恐慌所以後來也跟交通部來溝通"},{"start":31264.07,"end":31289.155,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":31289.275,"end":31313.536,"text":"目前比較有問題的部分就是南入的閘道在南入的閘道的部分校前路南入閘道的部分當初有評估就是說他南出南入閘道從校前路要進去高速公路因為他目前欠缺閘道的用地而且跟現在的楊梅交流道車流動線會引發"},{"start":31315.397,"end":31316.158,"text":"因為我們當初"},{"start":31340.836,"end":31363.092,"text":"有設一個楊梅的休息站那是後面才設立因為把我們當初楊梅收費站廢掉以後他去設一個楊梅休息站但是其實在南下不到20公里的地方就有一個新竹的湖口休息站不到20公里就有那如果把這個楊梅休息站"},{"start":31364.099,"end":31388.711,"text":"撤銷把我們現有國道公路警察楊梅分隊移到我們現在的休息站然後把現有的楊梅分隊其實現在楊梅分隊其實他的廠子喔辦公廠子也不服他們使用也老舊了那如果把這一個辦公廠子楊梅分隊現有的廠子拆除以後然後把楊梅分隊移到"},{"start":31390.231,"end":31414.017,"text":"那這樣子就可以解決我們閘道的問題還有閘道拓寬的用地而且也沒有休息站車流衝突的問題那這一部分就可以讓我們很多的問題來解決那我們當然地方大家也在講這個叫做閃轉騰挪兩難治解也就是說這樣子的做法對民眾的影響最小"},{"start":31414.637,"end":31429.571,"text":"工程的可行性也最大最主要他的經費成本也是最少因為他幾乎不用去徵收民間的用地也不用拆民宅因為本來有提出一個討論如果從秀才路做因為他旁邊"},{"start":31430.612,"end":31431.212,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":31451.525,"end":31471.448,"text":"北出南入閘道這個問題也可以順勢來解決陽梅30年暢通網路得以完整建置就可以從現在的孝前路通到新疆路再通到秀才路秀才路再現在通到深深路這一段已經打通了然後後面那一段就是我剛剛講的"},{"start":31472.529,"end":31472.549,"text":"委員："},{"start":31488.419,"end":31510.455,"text":"透寬工程再加上我們北出南入找到一併施作就可以連我們這30年沒有辦法解決的問題做一併解決所以這邊很多的鄉親也很期望也想看看我們的卓院長是不是有空有機會卓院長可以到我們楊梅跟部長來這邊視察一下幫我們解決一下這個30年沒有辦法解決的問題"},{"start":31513.962,"end":31533.958,"text":"是的 圖委員剛剛在這裡聆聽這一段委員對地方尤其楊梅頭城這一段道路以及休息站的這種講話真的是自嘆不如啦你講得非常非常的詳細但是就我們來聽還不如到現場去看一次所以我會請部長來安排我們現在有個時間然後到現場去看那到時候再請委員多多的指教"},{"start":31534.758,"end":31556.175,"text":"對因為今天提出真的是非常希望院長部長我們大家我們常常講服務不分黨派建設不分族群大家全力共同努力為地方解決多年的建設我說尤其剛才講大家都是基層出身希望院長部長我們陽明的鄉親希望看到你們我們請部長來安排謝謝還有針對我們"},{"start":31559.628,"end":31586.125,"text":"三大快速道路因為現在我們我們交通部也有在規劃板龍快速道路跟新梅隆快速道路那板龍快速道路現在已經進行評估那新梅隆快速道路現在7月份已經決標可行性評估那重點我們本週也核定我們行政院的桃竹苗的大細股計畫那如果我們"},{"start":31587.026,"end":31609.398,"text":"大氣鼓計畫再配合這兩個快速道路因為現在市府也有提出五橫五縱串流城鄉的一個園景因為現在桃園因為航空城的建置而且就像剛剛院長有提桃園市現在真的人口快速成長車流也增加非常非常的多如果這個兩個快速道路要"},{"start":31610.058,"end":31627.697,"text":"新建再配合我們桃竹廟大溪谷計畫如果市府現在有規劃三大快速道路就是桃北快跟環溪快還有城中快這個如果建制完成的話就可以達到五橫五縱來解決我們桃園市"},{"start":31628.618,"end":31653.752,"text":"如果將來如果桃園市我們板龍跟新梅龍快速道路如果建制完成但是如果這三條快速道路沒有向市區延伸的話最後市區還是會造成擁捨而且道路不足以因應的問題那今天最主要提出就是希望交通部能夠支持地方做這個可行性評估的研究經費大概9000萬"},{"start":31655.697,"end":31677.94,"text":"是,報告委員,這個部分因為桃園市直轄市不符合這個交通部生活圈補助的這個規定但是它其實有一個預算是可以用的,棄燃費內的這個滾動檢討、支應跟自籌財源的這個部分我覺得這個部分是可以去思考,由桃園市政府他們自己先做可行性評估的這個預算,他們先來處理"},{"start":31680.182,"end":31697.582,"text":"因為現在提出就是因為一直跟交通部有我們這邊有發文市府有發文可是有碰到一些問題那今天提出我想院長也在因為我們基於為地方建設因為這三條快速道路如果可以做也是解決我們"},{"start":31698.462,"end":31728.139,"text":"中央新建板農跟新梅農快速道路讓它整體連貫能夠解決我們車流擁捨還有將來道路不足以因應的問題最主要又剛好配合我們現在桃竹苗的大矽谷計畫我覺得這是應該中央應該要給予大力的協助我們應該要樂觀其成才對那這部分就請院長跟部長再研議我們今天有機會提出也希望能夠大力來跟我們支持"},{"start":31732.179,"end":31746.762,"text":"好那這部分就請我們交通部長可以先回座那接下來的部分就是我們針對我們環境部部長彭部長那院長那這個也是"},{"start":31754.431,"end":31776.586,"text":"最近一直大家在討論的一個問題現在媒體也都一直非常重視這個問題就是當初彭部長也有講不要讓SRF污名化那當然我們也不希望可是我記得我在7月的時候有在總質詢有提出針對我們經濟部6月有提出草案"},{"start":31777.099,"end":31800.934,"text":"我說這個排放標準就是垃圾焚化爐的標準不管你是SRF的燃料還是它的燃燒排放的標準裡面的鉛 鋼 鎘的含量以及燃燒時候所產生的鈣耀鋅的排放量都是我們垃圾焚化爐的標準而且是一模一樣當初我們彭部長"},{"start":31802.182,"end":31819.807,"text":"也有講說會重研來處理那可是後來很可惜我們看到9月份好像9月份的簡報我們看到好像還是一樣我相信這個院長應該也有記憶那時候在總諮詢的時候我們有提出"},{"start":31822.93,"end":31841.347,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是SRF如果製造廠經過完整的分類篩選之後他就沒有那種所謂的燒垃圾的問題基本上沒有一件事情是垃圾他基本上是可以被回收的那回收完了之後經過分類之後進到燃燒的鍋爐那鍋爐之後基本上就不會有這些問題"},{"start":31842.168,"end":31870.05,"text":"但是問題是說我們現在把這種任何燒的找到一個最嚴格目前我們國內最嚴格的還是以焚化爐那焚化爐只要它包含了帶氧性的管制能夠加一些拖流或是說除碳的這種設備的話其實這個問題就可以解決所以也請委員放心這個我們後來比較的是歐盟還有全世界各最嚴格的標準拿來所以目前我必須說我們SRF標準是全世界我們把所有列出來每一個國家有的我們就把它列進去"},{"start":31870.45,"end":31875.927,"text":"所以部長你意思說現在我們SRF的標準是OK的"},{"start":31876.437,"end":31897.276,"text":"是OK的可是我們看了以後其實我們針對ISF這個標準我們燃料的部分其實當然是國際的最低標然後針對這個代耗芯的部分我們現在看一下代耗芯的部分因為我知道我們後來有去針對16家廠商有做總體檢而且"},{"start":31902.08,"end":31922.087,"text":"我們這個總級檢測排放量據我了解還是還是低標的用低標的方式去去檢測那居然用低標的方式去檢測16家裡面合格的只有12家也就是說有4家他這個戴耀星的排放量是超標的低標他還超標喔對吧"},{"start":31923.647,"end":31949.277,"text":"對報告委員其實他們都承諾他們如果要繼續用下去的話我們也給他一點點時間然後要達到我們的標準才可以進行那報告委員因為我這樣那麼嚴格所以今天中國時報還特別說我們這樣就扼殺了產業的發展所以也請委員要諒解說我們積極在保護國人的生活的安全那我們還是會跟一些工業的安全我們會給他們一點點時間去改善但是我們一定會去讓他所有都打標"},{"start":31950.305,"end":31950.465,"text":"主席"},{"start":31969.834,"end":31983.599,"text":"現在桃園市府也針對我們SRF廠好像也有撤銷入園好像也送到經濟部 是吧 郭部長送到經濟部報告委員 現在業者他已經對這個桃園市政府的處分提出訴願"},{"start":31985.819,"end":32002.707,"text":"我們現在由經濟部的訴願委員會審理之中我們會依相關事實跟法律的專業來做決定環境部的彭部長有跟您報告我們現在就是依最嚴格的規範來處理他們的訴願"},{"start":32007.869,"end":32030.507,"text":"我也希望中央跟地方可以聯合來希望中央能夠理解支持因為其實我們一直有講我們也不是反傷我們也希望經濟要能夠好但是當初這個入園確實我覺得缺乏一些程序正義那有些部分該補足的部分還是要去補足該嚴格執行的地方還是要去嚴格執行"},{"start":32031.067,"end":32052.18,"text":"因為現在地方民意真的反彈很大一直都希望是不是針對這一部分能夠做民意調查甚至有人說是不是應該要提出公投能夠傾聽基層的聲音當然這一部分我也希望經濟部跟市府針對這一部分好好來為我們民眾的健康把關解決這個空氣汙染的問題"},{"start":32054.582,"end":32055.442,"text":"我們會讓我們在桃園的鄉親了解"},{"start":32082.955,"end":32101.746,"text":"我們確實為鄉親的健康在做把關我希望說我們中央也要顧全到我們民眾基層的心聲針對這部分SRF真的要好好的管理好好的管制不要給民眾有太多的疑慮"},{"start":32102.546,"end":32121.915,"text":"報告委員其實觀音的地方還有很多不明的地下工廠我們現在環境部也很主動的用AI的方式收集一些氣體我們也特別送給觀音的一些代表希望他們能夠主動幫我們抓我們希望把這種偷牌的當地民眾引以為恐慌的問題能夠找到"},{"start":32124.175,"end":32148.721,"text":"那也希望我們大家中央地方能夠把這些問題都做一個最好的解決的方式那針對藻礁的部分因為這一部分可能要跟大家說明一下在109年11月的時候我們的前總統蔡英文總統有去視察觀音沿海藻礁因為當時選定我們觀塘的工業區那邊要來做"},{"start":32149.795,"end":32173.921,"text":"三接工程所以當時針對沿海藻礁很多環保人士保育團體針對這個三接工程可能會破壞藻礁的問題當時我們蔡英文總統也有提出要提出10億的基金來保育藻礁的生態那針對這部分後來我們看到好像中油公司"},{"start":32175.488,"end":32198.902,"text":"後來編列這個基金好像叫做生態保育基金好像並不是完全針對山階工程破壞藻礁而成立的那這部分我們郭部長你要不要說明一下報告委員這個部分我想我回去以後再跟中友討論一下子為什麼就像你所指教的這一個為什麼那兩個字不見"},{"start":32200.426,"end":32227.046,"text":"對因為我又在這邊說明就是說當初成立這個確實就是蔡總統去視察三階施工會破壞藻礁而且當時在現場給民眾的承諾那後來我們就覺得說為什麼不是藻礁生態保育那只是單純做生態我想說單純做生態中油幹嘛要去搶環境部的工作"},{"start":32227.466,"end":32229.009,"text":"應該是那個時候還沒有成立環境部"},{"start":32241.904,"end":32260.412,"text":"那重點我真的希望這部分我們專款專用而且當初成立這個宗旨就是為了保護藻礁那結果另一個這個名目好像不是專門為藻礁而且感覺好像是好像不知道以為是環境部成立的一個基金會"},{"start":32261.252,"end":32261.793,"text":"找交基金管理委員會"},{"start":32285.973,"end":32297.587,"text":"徵詢一下因為我現在針對說地方人士還有一些保育團體他們所提出的疑慮因為當初中友總經理跟副總經理當初剛開始對於藻礁"},{"start":32301.56,"end":32327.823,"text":"發表的言論讓他們覺得並不是很友好而且還有我們中研院的學者他當時也是支持三階外推而且他說不會破壞藻礁然後我們的基金監察人是我們的前環保署副署長 詹順貴他們一直說這樣子的黃金陣容讓他們覺得非常憂心因為找了一堆"},{"start":32328.704,"end":32330.746,"text":"是的,我們回去以後會來瞭解"},{"start":32350.25,"end":32376.458,"text":"好那這部分請部長多幫忙針對這個成員能夠幫我們來瞭解篩選一下因為我們認為藻礁的保育基金當然要保護藻礁對這個藻礁保護很有心很想做的人去做不應該是反對藻礁的人去做這個藻礁保育基金還有我們針對棕油藻礁保育那部長你知不知道我們"},{"start":32377.628,"end":32404.304,"text":"找交保育的現在的成果怎麼樣沒關係我大概說明因為在之前111年我們中游針對關棠生育保育成果發表會他說保育成果豐碩可是我們看真的是非常非常的憂心因為根據我們查到的數據"},{"start":32405.762,"end":32422.213,"text":"了解而且這個數據也是臺灣中油他們自己做的監測報告我們看一下從108年到113年他這個監測站是最接近三接的地方結果你看從108年這個三個監測站他的"},{"start":32427.276,"end":32450.677,"text":"他的平均值阿最少都還有50幾%高的到81%多針對他這個殼狀珊瑚礁覆蓋率的部分有這麼高可是從108年開始都還可以可是你看喔從108年11月山階開始建造以後你看看這個藻礁"},{"start":32452.492,"end":32464.669,"text":"殼狀珊瑚礁覆蓋率大幅下降而且你看從80幾%已經到剩10幾%了這個是中油自己做的數據喔那不知道部長你針對這有什麼看法"},{"start":32466.271,"end":32482.648,"text":"這個我要再了解一下請彭部長報告委員這個我會跟我們因為我們有緩管師會去因為專門去監測考察這個環評通過有沒有按照原來的方式做那報告委員我會把這個數據拿回去我們再調查再送一份報告給委員"},{"start":32484.223,"end":32498.051,"text":"對因為這個數據喔真的讓我們大家很憂心這就跟我們剛剛前面有講這個藻礁保育基金的問題你看當初大家也是相信政府說三接不會迫害藻礁那"},{"start":32499.011,"end":32499.571,"text":"人類跟大自然和平相處"},{"start":32528.217,"end":32528.697,"text":"接下來我們請登記第56位張志倫委員質詢"},{"start":32571.414,"end":32580.184,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝院長各位委員各位官員大家午安我們是不是有請這個卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":32592.017,"end":32610.406,"text":"張委員好卓院長好辛苦了這幾天今天的質詢一整天非常辛苦本席在這邊最近颱風所有我們第一線的警消還有所有救災的人員至上最深的敬意大家辛苦了院長辛苦了應該的"},{"start":32612.093,"end":32640.083,"text":"好那接下來要請教院長的部分就是我本身來自的選區是新北市中和也是我們韓院長的家鄉所以當我一開始上任以來我對很多的地方的大型的建設我非常的關心那也認為我們中和地方的大型建設它的時程都一般來講都拖得比較長所以我一直在關心希望很多的時程可以進速可以加速有些不必要的這個"},{"start":32641.303,"end":32642.204,"text":"中和污水下水道接管"},{"start":32663.079,"end":32687.656,"text":"說明一下他是從民國9393年就已經開始做這個中和污水下水道的接管那現在已經這個將近30年了那中國還有大概10萬的人南四角的人沒有接管所以在這個111年3月的時候由國土府核定12.87億的中和污水下水道接管"},{"start":32689.377,"end":32689.857,"text":"所以這邊我跟這個院長要請託的就是說"},{"start":32714.691,"end":32741.922,"text":"現在總共的總經費大概是12.87億那第一階段只核准的是大概3億多3億多的部分那總共可以讓3萬多戶來接管就是10萬人所以當時我在拜託這個陳院長的時候當時在我還記得在113年4月份的時候那時候是可行性評估報告那可行性整個就通過了"},{"start":32743.323,"end":32743.703,"text":"請問院長這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":32767.25,"end":32787.145,"text":"好的謝謝委員 污水下水道象徵一個都市真的是個翻身的機會讓他乾乾淨那是不是內政部將來也是要跟地方政府再多做的協調預算這方面我們透過程序來編列那執行的工作還是要拜託地方政府那過程怎麼樣請部長來說明"},{"start":32788.226,"end":32808.75,"text":"報告委員我想你都知道現在國土署的分署正在審查當中那我們如果分署審查完了又需要發包我們一定按照原來的採購的發包程序在辦理然後你有提到說那個預算是不是不夠我想不會因為一個整體計劃如果通過之後他就分一二三四期慢慢來往前推進我們會跟新北市政府一起來努力"},{"start":32809.481,"end":32809.621,"text":"謝謝部長跟院長"},{"start":32839.741,"end":32868.655,"text":"我們一起來爭取當時其實過去綜合交流道在尖峰的時期它每個小時的這個車流量高達4000步所以過去都會一直塞車那我們在上個會期的時候我們一起來努力現在很多鄉親從南部就是往北在綜合往綜合的方向因為當時已經爭取了3000萬的經費把這個路肩給取消把路肩給重新來鋪設所以現在如果很多綜合的鄉親從中南部回來"},{"start":32870.557,"end":32889.317,"text":"會發現出口變雙車道增加一倍的車流量所以已經不是這麼塞車了可是過去一直以來還有一個問題就是說不管是北向跟南向都會遇到一個問題就是說有些車子要往中和交流道往中和的方向去走"},{"start":32890.251,"end":32903.051,"text":"那有些車子要往板橋往64的方向跑結果會造成道路交織的問題所以高空局就規劃了14.9億需要偵測閘道把閘道的這些標示往前拉"},{"start":32903.929,"end":32926.219,"text":"未來讓民眾可以提早做這個分流的狀況那希望未來可以慢慢的一步一步降低這個塞車的問題可是現在當時這個計畫我再重新報告一次當時在陳建仁院長的時候是可行性評估報告有通過那現在的部分因為這個整個計畫要7年所以我們可以看到下一個表現在還在113年的這個部分"},{"start":32928.5,"end":32928.861,"text":"行政院院長"},{"start":32946.679,"end":32972.817,"text":"之前是需要說113年的年底就可以核准那他當然還有抓了幾個月的這個緩衝期那我希望說現在已經送到國發會了那也希望說行政院這邊可以來協助看是不是在113年的年底就順利來核准因為整個工期其實要當達7年的時間那我剛剛也跟部長跟院長報告過了這個交通塞車的問題一定要快速來解決所以是不是這邊可以拜託院長"},{"start":32973.638,"end":32984.452,"text":"如果可行性評估報告之前陳院長大概一個月的時間就覺得OK了那院長的部分是不是也可以從善如流 盡快來核定請部長說明"},{"start":32989.171,"end":33018.219,"text":"目前高工局會接續來辦理這個中規的部分那在國發會的部分那應該國發會的速度也都很快現在我們交通方面的建設我們都很清楚說大家民眾都非常的急尤其是綜合這個塞車的問題所有的人開車經過那裡都感受得到所以這個部分當然我們會加速來進行那國發會跟委員報告我們是9月27號收到函所以有在10月1號發文各部會我們正在等各部會回覆意見"},{"start":33019.639,"end":33048.539,"text":"好 謝謝那就拜託我們各部會的首長大家一起來努力希望在年底之前我們盡快把它給核定好不好是的好 謝謝好 那接下來我要請教的是剛剛討論的是一開始綜合污水下水到10萬人然後再來是我們的國道交流道改善每個小時高達這個4000車次的問題要解決結果現在發現一個另外一個問題要拜託院長來協助就是我們綜合有一個綜合分局"},{"start":33049.99,"end":33074.631,"text":"他現在遇到的問題第一個是他的年限已老就是已經用了很長的時間而且過去有兩地駐地辦公的一個問題就是綜合分局他的駐地在一般的警察事務在另外一個地方有偵查隊在執勤兩邊執勤造成很多的一些行政資源上的浪費跟辦公處所一個浪費"},{"start":33079.295,"end":33098.692,"text":"中和因為我們有一些企業他在做一些都市計畫改變了以後其實他有捐贈一筆這個用地給我們的中和分局所以用地問題解決了可是營造的費用將未來會蓋地上7層地下4層的建築物營造費用有9億"},{"start":33100.117,"end":33121.25,"text":"那這個部分其實新北市政府地方在籌措資源上有相當的困難所以是不是這邊請院長針對我們綜合分局他是要服務40萬人民的一個這個警察分局他的這個新建金費用地有了可是新建金費不足的問題是不是可以拜託院長來幫忙"},{"start":33125.598,"end":33140.726,"text":"蔣委員都非常清楚也很努力就是我們在現在的綜合分局因為他的耐震沒有達到這個拆除重建所以並不符合前瞻計畫裡面拆除重建但是因為我們新北市政府已經請這個市政府先用技術服務費768萬"},{"start":33142.967,"end":33144.028,"text":"新北市政府新北市政府"},{"start":33161.841,"end":33163.022,"text":"請新北市政府向中央申請分年所需要的經費"},{"start":33184.684,"end":33184.744,"text":"謝謝部長的說明"},{"start":33197.026,"end":33216.332,"text":"施主當然是一定的那是我們警察同仁所需要的聽社配所以這邊我也希望院長跟部長其實各地全台灣各縣市都有這些公有聽社老舊的問題尤其是警消的聽社老舊所以是不是說過去我知道說內政部很辛苦"},{"start":33216.832,"end":33241.433,"text":"都會有請各縣市來盤點有需要維修的部分做些維修的經費可是我這邊也比較大膽的希望院長跟部長可以主動來去盤點去追蹤去編列經費針對全台灣這個錦囂聽塞老舊的部分主動編列經費主動來修繕或是甚至有些真的是有些耐震的問題也必須如果要拆除的"},{"start":33241.733,"end":33264.049,"text":"報告委員其實本來就有了他只是說他要滾動式的調整所以那個行政院都非常支持他是按照滾動式調整之後如果知道他老舊廳舍他按照老舊廳舍的需求他一年一年都會一直補助下去全台灣都是這樣子所以所有各縣市地方政府的警察局長都知道那他們也都在爭取所以我們每一年都會有厚厚的一本跟行政院來爭取這個經費"},{"start":33267.273,"end":33278.742,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝院長接下來我要問的問題就比較尖銳一點我要請教的就是說大家都知道最近這個電費又要漲了其實"},{"start":33283.906,"end":33310.728,"text":"國民黨黨團的立場一向都很直接就是希望電價要動漲不管是企業或者是民間的尤其是民間的一定要動漲可是我們看到從民進黨執政這幾年來尤其蔡英文政府跟賴清德政府普遍調漲電費已經高達40%我們現在所知道的台電現在是這個負毛利率"},{"start":33312.409,"end":33335.987,"text":"負債比高達90%現在累積虧損高達4000多億那不包含過去政府已經補貼他的3000億所以這邊我要請教院長就是說我這邊拿到一份資料這個資料是應該是國發會做的吧這個112年到122年間10年的這個電力規劃情形"},{"start":33339.632,"end":33360.64,"text":"這10年電力規劃情形不看不知道一看真的是要嚇一跳我們來看一下這個電力規劃情形從112年民進黨政府決定這個核能核二除疫然後把一些這個燃煤也除以後結果他未來做的是什麼"},{"start":33362.644,"end":33388.121,"text":"我們來看一下先從這個表圖的上面來看2023年2024年2025年民進黨政府的決議就是要把核能給除役然後把一些燃煤燃煤跟燃氣的把它救市的把它除役可是民進黨政府沒有跟人民講的是在100在112年的時候2023年的時候因為當時政府就只發揮只做"},{"start":33389.446,"end":33417.996,"text":"綠電所以當時在113年的時候全臺灣可以看到這個最下面這個夜間的尖峰的這個被轉容量只到8.1所以要跟院長跟部長講的是你沒有跟人民講的是在民進黨的能源政策底下出入的能源政策底下未來臺灣就是第一個用的是新建的燃氣白天的時候"},{"start":33418.675,"end":33433.065,"text":"是要用綠能用高額的電費來支付電費所以這邊要先請教部長的部分還有院長的部分你們可以看到112年的時候以這個圖表來看"},{"start":33435.154,"end":33464.478,"text":"新增的就是太陽能光電所以造成113年的缺電然後我們113年的時候大量的開啟新的這個燃氣廠以及太陽能光電所以第一個我要請教這個院長跟部長的我們可以看到這張表綠色的就是燃氣藍色的就是光電那光電這邊有個特別的內容就是"},{"start":33466.072,"end":33493.148,"text":"沒有 前面沒有任何的地點意思就是民營電廠所以要跟院長跟部長請教第一個點就是我相信民進黨政府沒有跟人民講的是說白天 未來台灣的能源政就是白天用人民的血汗錢發電就是用高額的綠能來發電晚上 因為綠能沒有辦法發電所以晚上就是用廢發電就是不夠的電力用燃煤來補"},{"start":33495.155,"end":33523.33,"text":"請教院長跟部長這就是民進黨未來的能源政策嗎報告委員我想這個用燃氣來取代燃煤這是一個世界的方向那麼在這個還沒有說這個2050年要進行減碳的時候那麼世界在發電的成本來看那麼燃煤跟燃氣是比較低的但是因為有了2050年要減碳的這個目標"},{"start":33524.875,"end":33525.155,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":33544.397,"end":33573.435,"text":"我要請先請教這個部長的問題就是我們可以看到這張太陽能光電的表從民國104年當時台電跟民營電廠其實當時的發電量是差不多的可是我們可以看到從110年111年不管是民營電廠的發電量大幅的上增而且我剛剛特別跟你報告通通都是民營電廠為什麼台電不自己做光電通通要把"},{"start":33574.349,"end":33578.613,"text":"交給民營電廠的話是希望能夠透過競爭民間的這個競爭讓我們的這個電的成本可以更低"},{"start":33600.19,"end":33620.009,"text":"這是交給民營電廠的成本會更低我們看到下一張表這邊這個是台電公布的資料台電的自發電力的電費跟外購電力大家可以看到一個明顯不相當的金額如果我們是台電自發的電力風力發電是4.61"},{"start":33623.53,"end":33638.198,"text":"外購電力就是民營電廠的購電力是6.59增加了40%意思就是人民會認為這個表這麼清楚的展現出來要給民營企業就是要給他40%的利潤太陽能發電致力發電3.75給外購電力要4.85"},{"start":33644.947,"end":33668.685,"text":"漲幅30%那我們來看燃氣現在民間沒有什麼企業會做燃氣為什麼因為外購電力3.62可是台電自發2.96漲幅只有22%我想請問院長跟部長的這樣子大家不會趨之若鶩認為政府就是要保護綠電給它固定的利潤而且要保證採購的量嗎"},{"start":33671.682,"end":33694.901,"text":"律電的部分還是一樣因為我們要快速的讓這個市場上要得到這麼多的律電如果說光是台電自己下去做可能會速度很慢所以我們需要民間的這個所以部長你講的沒錯因為當時過去台灣就已經自己台電就有做律電那台電從現在我們剛剛看到最前面那張表"},{"start":33695.95,"end":33718.363,"text":"在112年到112年間喔臺電經濟部是完全放棄自己做綠電完全不做全部交給民營電廠而且民營電廠就是保證用高價收購保證收購的一個態度私下還得知你們都請這個調度單位一定要請這個調度單位一定要用綠電這樣子去做"},{"start":33721.946,"end":33736.966,"text":"所以我常常才會跟部長跟院長講政府沒有說的秘密就是白天用綠電用人民的血汗錢發電晚上用廢發電就是空污的問題無法解決我覺得部長院長你沒有好好解釋我沒有辦法"},{"start":33738.587,"end":33760.164,"text":"政府沒有什麼秘密沒有說而是用公開的這個圖表來告訴國人我們在2024、25、26是我們舊電廠廚藝的高峰期那為了這個廚藝的高峰期我們必須比較快速有效率的能補充這些電廠那除了台電自己做的之外你講過我們需要效率所以用民營電廠來補充"},{"start":33761.445,"end":33763.687,"text":"台電有沒有考慮要自己做綠電台電自己設綠電這個是方向"},{"start":33780.871,"end":33804.413,"text":"我現在從112年到112年間10年都沒有方向我們現在目前是這樣 台電自己去做的話我們透過採購法各方面的規範 可能速度會比較慢那如果透過民間的 我再跟你講 很多你們把它用成綠電跟光電的地 都是國產署的地"},{"start":33805.179,"end":33805.259,"text":"除能設備"},{"start":33824.514,"end":33841.784,"text":"現在民間很多企業都知道使用儲能設備去儲存當不是尖峰的時候去儲存一些比較低價的電可是我們看到政府12年113年114年都有使用儲能設備為什麼從114年以後就不再使用儲能設備了"},{"start":33843.39,"end":33869.325,"text":"用儲能設備才能去除在不是尖峰的時間去除一些比較便宜的電這樣不會讓人民認為說你只有在發展光電而且發展光電是不穩定的能源所以你還是每年要設很多的燃氣電廠造成台灣的空汙問題造成全台灣光電板設一大堆燃氣廠設一大堆而且全民每年都可能要漲兩次電價"},{"start":33871.346,"end":33883.696,"text":"報告委員我想儲能設備是這個樣子您剛才所說的是正確就是說光電它事實上它需要儲能設備然後來在晚上才能用我們沒有錯我們同意這個您的說法那這個儲能設備事實上現在我們也都讓業者繼續在發展"},{"start":33898.813,"end":33914.401,"text":"我請問一下部長那為什麼114年以後就不發展除能設備了政府就不發展除能設備政府建置除能設備除能設備你要有那個他有使用的地方不過我們認為是這樣子因為業者他在市場評估的時候"},{"start":33925.009,"end":33939.882,"text":"政府願意發展每年發展固定的大量的太陽能光電可是卻不知道業者卻不知道要發展多少的除能設備這樣子我相信人民是不能接受的所以我們建議業者要自己"},{"start":33940.629,"end":33941.55,"text":"跟委員報告前一兩年"},{"start":33957.222,"end":33976.44,"text":"我們這個儲能設備民間投資的意願相當高所以它有一個電力交易平台讓民間來申請結果因為這個太多的量所以它有在前年5月稍微暫停7月已經重新啟動我認為這個表未來是有可能增加的今年7月重新啟動"},{"start":33977.361,"end":33979.442,"text":"臺灣人民是應該用便宜的電好的電而不是白天用綠能用人民的血汗錢納電費"},{"start":34006.943,"end":34009.905,"text":"我們會在未來因為AI電力大量的增加所以出能設備他一定有市場"},{"start":34021.175,"end":34035.2,"text":"不會像您剛所說這個是國發會提供的提供的10年的電話估計表所以拜託這會讓人民覺得說全台灣就是綠電綠油油臺電賺寶綠電臺電跌倒綠電賺寶全民漲電價好不好沒有這回事我們不可能這個這個電價的這個漲是由這個電價委員會在"},{"start":34048.19,"end":34049.492,"text":"接下來還要再請問部長跟院長一個問題針對我們臺灣未來即將面臨的太陽能板"},{"start":34057.04,"end":34078.23,"text":"這麽多大量的太陽能板其實現在經濟部其實針對太陽能板未來的回收的這個整個基金是嚴重收取不足的當我們有去跟這個部會去討論的時候他回答我們我問他說有一些廢棄的太陽能廠怎麽處理他說廢棄的時候很多的公司都倒閉"},{"start":34079.349,"end":34098.427,"text":"倒閉的話查無此人可是這些的太陽能板還是屬於那些倒閉的公司產生了太陽能板這個流浪漢太陽能板孤兒這些東西這些問題未來在台灣發展綠能的過程上是一個非常嚴重的問題所以請院長跟部長針對這個問題一定要"},{"start":34102.464,"end":34123.607,"text":"來解釋一定要讓這個費用給收起這個問題我想跟委員報告我們的這個經濟部所屬的工業技術研究院已經有這個將太陽能板回收的技術那麼現在也要成立這樣的公司那麼所以您所擔心的這一件事情我們相信是不會造成這個困擾"},{"start":34124.926,"end":34139.864,"text":"好那院長跟部長有提示未來這個問題會慢慢的下降我們期待不然台灣會成為這個太陽能板的孤兒的廢棄島那接下來本席要跟部長跟院長請教的就是說剛剛我們講台灣發展這麼多的這個"},{"start":34143.814,"end":34145.235,"text":"臺灣不能獨輸一格,尤其對台灣的空汙指標要來調整"},{"start":34160.698,"end":34181.347,"text":"台灣大家都知道現在新聞報導有特別指出這個肺癌造成主要的原因第一個最嚴重的新聞報導有指出就是PN2.5就是空汙的影響所以我們看到這一張的這個slide的表格裡面有寫現行的PN2.5的指標它是寫15"},{"start":34182.912,"end":34208.172,"text":"那未來修正後會變成12我看到這個資料的時候本來非常開心想說哇政府終於聽到我們的聲音了可是第一個我要跟這個院長報告的是他跟國際的標準美國的9還是有相當的差別以及這個總表當時在規劃的時候其實就有一些浮爆的情況因為像台灣有一些的污染物是在台灣不會出現的"},{"start":34209.398,"end":34221.643,"text":"在台灣會是0的所以這個數字台灣的空汙會造成永遠都不會有空汙因為這個數這個這個計算公式會造成很多的數字去虛胖所以這個部分我也要請到"},{"start":34223.314,"end":34247.177,"text":"翻到下一頁在114年第一會期的施政報告部長你的施政報告裡面針對人民最重視的空污問題在15條裡面你沒有講說要加強防治與監控改善空氣品質跟環境凝視我在看這個內容的時候第一個我懷疑這內容是照抄"},{"start":34248.674,"end":34266.601,"text":"後來我仔細來看不是照抄內容只是我們的數據有稍微改了一下可是讓我覺得非常痛心的是說前面左邊這個資料裡面寫說截至112年12月20日子PO2.5的平均濃度是13.8"},{"start":34268.854,"end":34284.913,"text":"可是我們看到最新的施政報告裡面寫113年6月指這個PM2.5的濃度上升到15.1就代表臺灣剛剛可以連到剛剛前面跟大家講的創意的能源政策造成臺灣一直把這個"},{"start":34286.769,"end":34286.889,"text":"﹚發言委員："},{"start":34311.581,"end":34333.667,"text":"跟地方政府合作的這個 空汙的檢測點完全只有一萬點 完全沒有增加以及鼓勵癱瘓 孤乳這些數字在113年6月底跟去年也完全沒有變動 是不是代表政府對人民的空汙對人民第一名產生這個肺癌 肺腺癌的問題政府是不是忽視了 請委員長幫我們解釋一下"},{"start":34335.447,"end":34336.568,"text":"等一下等一下你這樣解釋我不記得他說平均阿"},{"start":34351.435,"end":34368.042,"text":"明天總會有半年到6月的差別一個是到6月一個是一整年快要到12月20號所以是一整年所以一個除以6個除以12嗎不一樣喔因為我們台灣四季的空屋是不一樣的高低不一樣的下半年度空屋會減少所以這個數字會回到正常"},{"start":34368.362,"end":34369.183,"text":"所以你的目標到年底會是10?沒有"},{"start":34408.036,"end":34429.925,"text":"謝謝張志倫委員的質詢謝謝卓院長跟相關首長的備詢報言會本會期排定政黨質詢的委員均已質詢完畢非常感謝卓院長、政府院長以及各部會首長的列席打詢10月8號星期二上午9點我們繼續開會進行立法委員個人質詢內政組織質詢我們先來休息"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 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排題還是被衝破了非常抱歉對 所以是不是請院長除了訪聊這段之外能夠把整個屏東的沿海鄉鎮的部分是不是做一個全面的檢視跟盤點我們一次把它到位好不好"},{"start":252.239,"end":279.119,"text":"我們如果做得到整個臺灣環島的地方我們都希望能夠有安全的維護對 也跟院長說明 包含這個海體也已經三四十年了這個整個結構都已經有問題所以也必須這個海體的部分也必須從來來檢視我們會全面來檢視那除了這個海體跟離岸鐵工程之外那我還是要再麻煩一下我們經濟部水利署因為我們現在我們也喊包含加東"},{"start":280.135,"end":280.516,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":297.756,"end":297.816,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":313.037,"end":334.095,"text":"報告委員這一部分我想我們會因為這個極端氣候然後造成現在的這個颱風這樣的一個變遷我想這個是我們第一次碰到那我們會根據現在的這個狀況然後會趕快來瞭解深入瞭解以後然後會提報然後會向院長報告然後提出一個解決的方案"},{"start":334.79,"end":357.502,"text":"因為屏東縣其實從過去我們八年八百億到六年六百億的治水預算已經也幫屏東做了很多的一個治水的一個工程那確實也造成我們以前所謂很多的明星的淹水熱點現在都已經慢慢的其實大幅的改善但是因為這些還有幾座的一些這個老舊的抽水站的設備這個五年一回比外走力比較多"},{"start":358.643,"end":360.385,"text":"這一部分我們會請這個水利署趕快加速來了解再來提報"},{"start":375.85,"end":397.86,"text":"各位委員報告明後兩天如果不妨礙到地方第一線的救災我們會到第一線去看看實際上的狀況以及準備來善後水退了重建正要開始我們要全力來爭取足夠的預算來支應各地的需求謝謝院長我們也期待院長趕快來所以下一張照片要讓院長看一下"},{"start":400.27,"end":400.43,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":424.124,"end":452.586,"text":"我們在蘇貞昌前院長的時候平中線是一個颱風容易侵襲的一個縣市所以當時針對我們的平俄公路有做了一個電纜地下化的工程所以這一次凱米颱風包含這次的山陀爾颱風恆春半島受停電的戶數就相對已經少了很多但是我們整個平安地區大停電的問題還是沒有改善那包含我們整個養殖專區他們現在面臨的就是"},{"start":453.506,"end":470.531,"text":"這個整個電纜只要電感一斷線 整個都停電這個一坨東西都幾百萬的這個一損失而言 這個不是只有幾百萬幾千萬這個整個產值的損失非常非常的大有沒有考慮這個整個針對我們養殖鑽區做一個電纜地消化的一個改善工程"},{"start":471.904,"end":486.233,"text":"報告委員 我想這個我們會加速評估但是這個我想你也清楚啦這個地下電纜的這個成本跟這個地上電纜的成本我們會看這個效益跟成本然後再提供給這個委員參考"},{"start":487.974,"end":490.136,"text":"我們會綜合來評估這一部分我們會盡快把這個結果跟委員報告"},{"start":512.095,"end":537.14,"text":"副部長說明一下我要向委員報告關於停電的部分 農業部有針對發電機做它的補助所以這個部分是第一部分就是說當電缺電的時候我們發電機可以啟動這是第一個部分那第二個部分就是我們也針對有關於養殖區的這些電纜是不是要地下化我們先前也啟動了一些調查"},{"start":538.28,"end":538.7,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":558.74,"end":558.96,"text":"﹚徐富癸﹚"},{"start":584.632,"end":610.205,"text":"部長謝謝你提到我下一個要提的問題我們如果趕快把海水公民站完成我們的鄉親不用把海港又到海景去取水因為這次很多水管因為海浪的關係整個都沖破了你現在沒辦法抽海水進來鹹度不夠魚也趕快洗完一樣的問題都會產生所以這邊要拜託院長如果我們的地下化有困難"},{"start":610.825,"end":611.285,"text":"發言委員：徐富癸"},{"start":627.64,"end":652.321,"text":"報告委員每次的災害之後我們都會產生也發現新的問題我們就必須來面對它將來如果我們衡量之後有這種防災的需要而且在技術上也是可行的那麼是不是地方政府來提出一個需求也提出一個配合的計畫那請經濟部台電再來就個案我們來做處理希望是區域性的而不是一家一家的"},{"start":653.361,"end":682.183,"text":"對 院長因為我們都有所謂的養殖生產區我們可以用這樣的方式來跟我們當地的生產區來溝通我們一戶一戶來做改善來做處理最起碼有個中繼的電力的一個系統像地下化還是加強它的發電的設備這個我想技術問題我們就請要拜託院長海水供應站也要趕快完成那些公路就不用再移完就直接從海水供應站可以直接處理阿銀我怎樣部長這個預算喔本市講到預算喔都很頭痛但是一定要面對的事情"},{"start":682.637,"end":684.618,"text":"另外還有一個造成的問題從上一次凱米颱風到這次山陀爾颱風造成的就是所謂一個漂流幕"},{"start":711.377,"end":716.819,"text":"我可不可以來說明一下特別是建拜紅開來以後從上游開始就有一些漂泥木一直往漁港這邊往河口"},{"start":737.725,"end":759.345,"text":"一個很重要的就是漂泥木在各部會都是認為屬地主義啦就是他漂到哪邊是屬於誰管但是農業部一直主動的跟縣市政府合作現在就是說縣市政府有開口合約那我們農業部的林保署跟我們的那個漁業署也有開口合約那以這個來講在漁港的部分我們就已經請開口合約叫人家進駐"},{"start":760.026,"end":760.306,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":773.852,"end":802.124,"text":"我現在知道的狀況是我們向延埔漁港我們是由恆春農會每年派熱資來載這路剛才很奇怪阿我們為什麼漁業署不能在地有開口合約我們是用開口合約而且我們是已經進駐在漁港裡面只要有那個出來特別是在東港延埔的部分那其他的漁港的部分我想我們也會比照就是希望說用開口合約的部分讓廠商直接去打撈上來而不是讓農會或其他的來處理"},{"start":803.806,"end":827.044,"text":"這個也要跟秦院長幫忙因為只要一發生這個風災這個漂流木光是討論誰要處理可能就是影響到很多的問題剛剛部長答覆過我們用開口合約進駐各港區在方式方面要用打撈的方式進駐把它撈起來對 開口合約廠商也要積極不是只有有合約沒有行動也沒有用對 是"},{"start":829.144,"end":836.177,"text":"那另外針對上次凱米颱風清洗之後﹐屏東縣政府提出的一個災損的重建金額高達8.2億"},{"start":837.523,"end":859.79,"text":"那這次山坨的颱風一樣也重創了屏東那所以屏東的許多建設需要我們中央全力來支持尤其我們許多的農民漁民一年的辛勞有可能瞬間化為無有尤其我們的基礎建設包含治水預算也好重建建設也好還有一些基礎建設的一些經費我們需要中央大力的來支持"},{"start":860.37,"end":885.108,"text":"那院長剛剛我想我們民進黨團也表達我們的立場我們不希望政爭我們也不希望這個因為所謂的一個政治的對抗影響到我們的民生所以前兩天我們我在跟我們的周縣長我們在訪寮看災的時候我們有一位我們的國民黨委員一到現場就當場被我們的鄉親"},{"start":887.034,"end":887.735,"text":"徹幹六條﹚徐富癸"},{"start":909.502,"end":909.622,"text":"徐富癸議員"},{"start":950.831,"end":951.091,"text":"徐富癸議員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:43:00 - 11:58:55","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155060","gazette":{"lineno":731,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時43分）謝謝主席。我們有請卓院長、經濟部郭部長、農業部陳部長。"],["主席：卓院長，請備詢，經濟部長、農業部長，請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好！在屏東這兩天非常辛苦，謝謝你。"],["徐委員富癸：院長及兩位部長，早安！誠如院長剛剛講的，這兩天高屏地區歷經了大災難，山陀兒颱風路徑詭異多變，讓很多我們的氣象專家也跌破眼鏡，同時也對我們高屏地區造成很大的損害。剛剛我們還在跟屏東通電話，截至目前為止，屏東還有四萬多戶停電，我們台電的同仁也很辛苦，全力在搶救，包含剛剛我們也請海巡的管主委緊急支援海巡的艦艇，把我們中油、台電、台水一些相關國營事業的同仁載到小琉球去，現在在搶救一些災情，我想雖然是遇到了這樣子的災難，但是後續針對屏東縣的一些重建工程，還有一些基礎建設，本席藉這個機會特別拜託院長及我們行政院的團隊要來大力的支持，讓屏東縣未來能夠更好。","首先，我們第一張照片先秀出來，院長，右手邊這張就是前兩天枋寮大庄海堤破損的照片，你看缺口的前端有一個叫做離岸堤，我要跟院長說明的是，在現在極端氣候的影響之下，我記得從潘前縣長及周縣長擔任立委到縣長的任內，一直都有向經濟部爭取離岸堤的建設，因為時代久遠，加上極端氣候天候的因素，離岸堤這個第一道防線的高度跟寬度已經不夠，沒辦法阻擋海浪，所以第一道被打破之後，第二道我們又緊急請第七河川分署吊消波塊，結果同樣也無法阻擋海浪的巨大侵襲，所以才會造成海堤的破損。在這邊要特別請教院長及拜託院長，針對我們沿線包含東港、林邊、佳冬、枋寮整個離岸堤的建設，是不是有必要重新全面檢討、重新全面建置，加強離岸的保護措施？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，雖然歷年來我們對於任何治山防洪工程做得非常、非常的多，但是面對這樣的極端氣候，來得非常快、又大又急，可能很多原來的設計、安全的係數，都不足以應付現在的狀況，我們需要全面提升，這也是為什麼明年度我們率先編列了大概550億系統性治水預算，希望能夠做比較有系統性的治水，雖然我覺得這個還是不夠，但至少我們馬上這樣開始，就緊急的部分先來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：院長，7月份凱米颱風的時候我就已經約了水利署跟縣政府的同仁到現場去看過，也準備爭取明年度的預算6,000萬來增加離岸堤，可是這一次來不及，海堤還是被沖破了。"],["卓院長榮泰：非常抱歉。"],["徐委員富癸：所以是不是請院長除了針對枋寮這一段之外，是不是能夠把整個屏東沿海鄉鎮的部分做全面的檢視跟盤點，我們一次把它到位好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果做得到，整個臺灣環島的地方我們都希望能夠有安全的維護。"],["徐委員富癸：對，也跟院長說明，這個海堤已經三、四十年了，整個結構都已經有問題，所以針對海堤的部分也必須全面來檢視，這要特別麻煩……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會全面來檢視。"],["徐委員富癸：除了海堤跟離岸堤的工程之外，我還是要再麻煩一下經濟部水利署，因為現在我們沿海包含佳冬、林邊有幾個抽水站年齡都已經二十幾年，他們原本設計的抽水容量已經沒辦法應付現在的豪大雨，所以現在面臨的狀況就是外面有大浪的衝襲，裡面有豪大雨造成的淹水我們要迅速的把它排出來，可是因為抽水站老舊、設備不足，造成抽水的量能不足，這部分是不是也請院長跟部長來支持全面更新屏東縣的抽水設備？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一部分因為極端氣候，造成現在的颱風這樣的變遷我們是第一次碰到，我們會根據現在的狀況趕快來了解，深入了解以後會提報、向院長報告，然後提出一個解決的方案。"],["徐委員富癸：其實從過去8年800億到6年600億的治水預算，已經幫屏東做了很多的治水工程，確實以前很多的明星淹水熱點現在都已經慢慢的大幅改善，但是因為還有幾座老舊抽水站的設備，有的年紀比我的助理還要大，而且設備已經相當老舊，所以確實有必要馬上來替換，才能讓鄉親有個安心的環境。"],["郭部長智輝：這一部分我們會請水利署趕快加速了解再來提報。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，明、後兩天如果不妨礙到地方第一線的救災，我們會到第一線去，我會跟著部長到第一線去看看實際上的狀況以及怎麼來善後。水退了，重建正要開始，我們要全力爭取足夠的預算來支應各地的需求。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝院長，我們也期待院長趕快來。","下一張照片要讓院長看一下，你看我們的鄉親因為海堤破了要堆沙包，他們非常擔心，從昨天停電到現在，他們準備了自己的發電機，但是發電機的油不夠，也容易燒壞，所以下一個議題就是要請院長特別來幫忙，針對屏東縣，我記得在蘇貞昌前院長的時候，屏東縣是一個颱風容易侵襲的縣市，當時針對我們的屏鵝公路有做了一個電纜地下化的工程，所以這次凱米颱風、包含山陀兒颱風來襲，恆春半島受停電的戶數就相對已經少了很多，但是我們整個屏南地區大停電的問題還是沒有改善。包含我們整個養殖專區，他們現在面臨的就是整個電纜只要電桿一斷線，整個都停電，一窟魚塭的魚都價值幾百萬，以損失而言，不是只有幾百萬、幾千萬，而是整個產值的損失非常、非常地大，有沒有考慮針對我們養殖專區做一個電纜地下化的改善工程？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們會加速評估，但是我想你也清楚地下電纜的成本跟地上電纜的成本，我們會看這個效益跟成本，然後再提供給委員參考，我們當然是……"],["徐委員富癸：部長，這涉及百姓的生命安全跟財產，可以用成本來考量嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：當然、當然，因為我的親戚也有很多人在這裡……"],["徐委員富癸：是啊，你自己是在地的，又是北旗尾的鄉親，你相當清楚我們這裡的情形。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我知道，我也有親戚在這裡做，但是我們會綜合來評估，這部分我們會儘快把結果跟委員報告。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳部長說明一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，關於停電的部分，農業部有針對發電機做補助，所以這個部分是第一部分，就是當缺電的時候，發電機可以啟動，這是第一個部分。","第二個部分就是我們針對有關於養殖區的電纜是不是要地下化，先前也啟動了一些調查，然後看看漁民的意願。現在這個意見有些認為反而不好，有些認為不錯，所以我們會再跟經濟部、台電公司去做專案的評估，某一些地區沒有經常淹水的部分就OK，有些地區如果經常淹水的時候，可能會造成一些地下電纜本身的維修困難，所以這個部分我們後續會去努力。","第三個部分是海水供應站的部分，我們在屏東地區，特別是剛才提到那個海堤破口的部分，其實我們這兩年也啟動了很多海水的供應，讓它變成一個專區，而不是由每一個養殖漁戶個別拉管，這樣的話，會讓整個養殖專區更有效率，以上。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，謝謝你提到我下一個要提的問題，我們如果趕快把海水供應站完成，我們的鄉親就不用把海水管拉到海邊去取水……"],["陳部長駿季：對，每一個自己去接……"],["徐委員富癸：這次很多水管因為海浪的關係，整個都被沖破了……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["徐委員富癸：現在沒辦法抽海水進來，鹽度不夠，魚也一樣死光光，一樣的問題都會產生。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["徐委員富癸：所以這邊要拜託院長，如果我們的地下化有困難，是不是針對剛剛講的，發電機是一個初步的計畫，但是畢竟如果路沒通的時候，你也沒辦法在有油的時候出去買油，台電也沒辦法進來維修的時候怎麼辦？是不是針對這樣子的改善工程，我們要有一個更先進的做法？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，每次的災害之後，我們都會產生、也發現新的問題，我們就必須來面對它。將來如果我們衡量之後有這種防災的需要，而且在技術上也是可行的，是不是地方政府來提出一個需求，也提出一個配合的計畫，請經濟部、台電再來就個案我們來做處理？我希望是區域性的，而不是一家、一家的。"],["徐委員富癸：對，院長，因為我們都有所謂的養殖生產區，我們可以用這樣的方式跟當地的生產區來溝通，我們一窟、一窟來做改善、處理，最起碼有個中繼的電力系統。"],["卓院長榮泰：是要地下化還是要加強它的發電的設備，我想這個技術問題我們就請經濟部來協調。"],["徐委員富癸：要拜託院長，海水供應站也要趕快完成……"],["卓院長榮泰：好、好、好。"],["徐委員富癸：這樣那個管線就不用再拉了。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["徐委員富癸：就直接從海水供應站可以直接處理。"],["卓院長榮泰：好、好。"],["徐委員富癸：因為我知道，部長，每次講到預算都很頭痛，但這是一定要面對的事情，因為屏東縣是我們全國第二大養殖專區的縣市，我們的產量非常、非常地大，非常需要農業部大力來支持。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們在屏東已經有大概3處的海水集中供應站，我們是透過疫後特別預算去支持的，所以這個部分會儘快地把它興建完成。"],["徐委員富癸：好，另外還有一個颱風造成的問題，從上一次凱米颱風到這次山陀兒颱風造成的就是所謂漂流木的問題，我們的鹽埔漁港也好、東港漁港也好，整個都是漂流木，交通船、漁船都沒辦法行駛，我聽到的部分是我們幾個單位都在踢皮球，都沒辦法協調，請教院長，這部分怎麼來整合？"],["陳部長駿季：我可不可以先說明一下，特別是上次颱風來以後，從上游開始就有一些漂流木一直漂往漁港、河口，很重要的是漂流木在各部會都是認為屬地主義，它漂到哪邊就屬於誰管。但是農業部一直主動跟縣市政府合作，現在縣市政府有開口合約，農業部林保署和漁業署也有開口合約，以現在的情況來講，在漁港的部分，我們已經用開口合約請人家進駐，只要有漂下來的時候就會把它打撈。另外，林保署會在靠近漁港部分的一些河流做一些攔截索，所以這個部分我們會跟地方政府一起來努力。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我現在知道的狀況是，像鹽埔漁港是由恆春農會每天派車子來載，路途這麼遠，很奇怪！為什麼漁業署不能在地有開口合約馬上來做處理？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是用開口合約，而且我們是已經進駐在漁港裡面，只要有漂出來，在特別是在東港、鹽埔的部分，其他漁港的部分，我們也會比照，就是希望用開口合約的部分讓廠商直接去打撈上來，而不是讓農會或其他的來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：這個也要請院長幫忙，因為只要一發生風災，漂流木光是討論誰要處理，可能就是影響很大的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長答復過，我們用開口合約進駐各港區，在方式方面要用打撈的方式儘速把它撈起來，避免造成傷害。"],["徐委員富癸：開口合約廠商也要積極，有合約，沒有行動也沒有用。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，針對上次凱米颱風侵襲之後，屏東縣政府提出的災損重建金額高達8.2億，這次山陀兒颱風也一樣重創了屏東，所以屏東的許多建設需要中央全力來支持，尤其我們許多的農民、漁民一年的辛勞有可能瞬間化為烏有，尤其我們的基礎建設包含治水預算也好、重建建設也好，還有一些基礎建設的經費，都需要中央大力的支持。院長，剛剛民進黨團也表達我們的立場，我們不希望政爭，我們也不希望因為所謂的政治對抗，影響到我們的民生，前兩天我跟周縣長在枋寮勘災的時候，有一位國民黨委員也到現場，結果當場被我們的鄉親在那邊「𧮙姦搦撟」，他說你為什麼阻擋我們的預算，不要影響到我們的治水，甚至明年的災損。以本席的統計，明年我們光編列治水就有159億，加上災防、第二預備金，總共加起來有三百多億，院長，如果藍白執意要阻擋，我們後續該怎麼處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：預算的部分我們當然會極力爭取，剛剛委員的大力疾呼，我想國人都聽見了，大家心裡都有同樣的感受。"],["徐委員富癸：中央和地方的資源調配應該是我們災後重建的核心機制，現在因為我們的總預算被擱置，不只是屏東，很多縣市的重建計畫也沒辦法啟動，這不僅對屏東鄉親不公平，也是對臺灣整體防災的忽視，我們需要的是效率和行動，而不是無止盡的政治僵局和政治對抗籌碼的談判，請院長大力支持屏東的建設，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的指教，我們再加油，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員，也謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，下午2時30分繼續開會，進行施政報告之質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時59分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":25,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-04"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137701_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-04","影片長度":"00:31:18","end_time":"2024-10-04T11:42:55+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155059","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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結論先講出來行政院應該依算法第79條最佳預算第一個要補足禁法補償的費用第二個要返還違法挪用綜合發展基金的59億多的錢理由以下這個森林法第10條規定"},{"start":114.858,"end":135.765,"text":"岩竹林保育地被限制採伐然後呢森林法第31條規定森林法規定禁止岩竹林保育地我們自己所種植的林木禁止砍伐也明確的規定要發補償金請求補償金我們看這個"},{"start":143.117,"end":168.033,"text":"主管機關是農業部農業部這個有關原住民族基本法21條規定的很清楚政府或法令限制原住民族利用前向土地就是原住民族土地及自然置業的時候受限制所生之損失應由該主管機關是誰啊農業部寬力預算補償之"},{"start":173.072,"end":181.537,"text":"但是長年以來都是 顏銘會在編譯上這個 我們看這個 簡東銘我的前輩 簡東銘立委在101年開始當然我的前輩曾華獨就開始提了簡東銘立委101年提案經濟及內政委員會經濟委員會主審"},{"start":203.944,"end":229.927,"text":"經濟及內政委員會從102年到104年審查了然後102年到104年是6次的黨團協商經過黨團協商之後104年8月當時的行政院就交代了人民會編列預算法律還沒通過先編列預算"},{"start":231.363,"end":256.259,"text":"然後104年的12月18號 這個我們這個單獨通過然後105年呢 1月6號公布施行這個計劃補償條例第二條定的執行機關是誰 農委會然後呢 這個補償的事宜由行政院編列一段"},{"start":257.538,"end":283.489,"text":"當初是行政院編的預算：但是還是交給人民會108年行政院提案修了這個第3條108年改為主管機關主管機關編誰呢?人民會這是法律的一個進法補償的一個整個原有我們看原住民族基本法第18條"},{"start":285.616,"end":313.069,"text":"這個是原住民族綜合發展基金的法言政府因涉原住民族綜合發展基金辦理原住民族經濟發展業務辦理原住民族經濟發展業務原住民族綜合發展基金收支保管及應用辦法第3條以及預算書行政院送來的預算書"},{"start":315.212,"end":338.485,"text":"這個預算書裡面特別明定本基金為預算法第4條第一項第二款第4目的特種基金是什麼呢凡付出仍可收回的特種基金付出去還可以收回比如說貸款貸款經濟貸款"},{"start":341.397,"end":367.539,"text":"本經會收回來還有利息可以收回來競發補償就沒有這個發出去收不回來我們看這個今年度的明年度的114年度原住民族中文發展基金的預算書寫得很清楚就是我剛念的就是預算法第4條第4目"},{"start":370.697,"end":394.838,"text":"就是反復出能可收回的 寫得很清楚 預算書都是這樣寫好 我們看歷年105年度開始沒有動用到基金 有餘額公務預算有餘額 沒有動用到基金從106年開始公務基金公務預算跟綜合發展基金 106年度開始"},{"start":398.001,"end":422.531,"text":"公務預算綜合發展基金共同的編列所以按照剛才我講的研究法18條按照預算法的規定這個都是違法挪用的金額就是在第二後面的那個紅字的部分經過本席多次的質詢立法院也做了結議"},{"start":424.289,"end":443.318,"text":"事實上武力華也做了質詢：不應該用綜合發展基金：所以113年度：113就今年沒有用到綜合發展基金只有公務預算的補助所以114年度也應該要這樣"},{"start":452.266,"end":477.423,"text":"這個剛剛已經說過了總共加起來就是違反我用了53億9千多萬立法院做過決議不得再用綜合發展基金了這個做過決議行政院仍持續的一直到112年度一直到113年度才做了正確的一個預算的編列"},{"start":482.844,"end":509.984,"text":"好 我們看這個基金中和發展基金 報告院長我在省政府當副局長的時候原住民行政局當副局長開始因為省議員的要求我們開始編列以前叫原住民主經濟事業發展基金經省之後考到中央考為原住民主中和發展基金"},{"start":510.868,"end":524.756,"text":"立法委員：也是一樣：一再的要求：要寬稠寬稠寬稠編列每年要由公務預算補助我們看這個預算書這是105年到12月31號的決算數基金的淨值117億7千多萬"},{"start":536.446,"end":560.832,"text":"當初的目標就是100億要做什麼用呢因為我們的貸款很困難因為我們是保留地原住民保留地你要貸款銀行不要所以必須要透過綜合發展基金作為我們的小銀行當初的目標是這樣有它的一個目的為了經濟發展你看這個禁止117到105點12月31號你看我們"},{"start":566.898,"end":587.552,"text":"這是114年度的預算書啊這裡面你看看已經累積短促負的63億短促是什麼意思我特別查這個字點啊財源不足啊財源不足63億預計到114年度"},{"start":591.866,"end":612.148,"text":"裂肌短處67億多從100多億的錢現在變成裂肌短處所以我們才會提出所以這個部分我曾經也質詢過檢察委的貝提敏她是學法律的她說"},{"start":614.167,"end":616.729,"text":"在這樣的情形之下我們先看到底有沒有違憲我們先看這個進法補償的"},{"start":644.958,"end":673.467,"text":"這個整個審查今年就是這次的版本從113年高軍述美提案我113年3月20號本席也提案盧憲毅也提案吳立華委員也提案我們在4月的時候內政委員會審查通過通過之後113年4月24號陳寅委員也提案然後開始找朝夜協商"},{"start":674.608,"end":689.691,"text":"草寫協商之後就表決通過整個這一次的修法跨黨派72位的立委提案或連署72位民進黨的立委有32位這麼多還包含了黨團的吳思堯"},{"start":703.186,"end":727.597,"text":"幹事長還有幹部都有啊在這樣的情形之下那立法院做的決議有這麼多的立委所做的各跨黨派的立委所通過的法例這個是一個歷程我們甚至被抹黑啊有沒有看到這個貴黨的立委"},{"start":729.728,"end":745.698,"text":"劉憲宜6萬武力華6萬陳雲6萬高進樹梅5萬鄭天財5萬是這樣來的我們要備受這個但是我們不在意沒有關係我們重點就是要協助原住民"},{"start":747.45,"end":770.766,"text":"根據中華民國憲法謝謝院長你沒有依憲法57條來提賦予要謝謝院長既然沒有提賦予就照案執行照法依法執行所以我也舉例為什麼沒有違憲99年2月11號民進黨團提案東部發展條例"},{"start":776.382,"end":801.074,"text":"99年2月24號國民黨團提案東部發展條例99年5月5號黃庭生提案東部發展條例楊仁福立委說要改為花東第七發展條例後來通過了叫 名稱叫花東第七發展條例一算多少呢要編列400億的花東基金沒有行政院的提案喔"},{"start":802.045,"end":825.743,"text":"沒有行政院的提案400億的發動基金就這樣通過了照案執行還有很多老年農民福利津貼當初100年12月也是沒有行政院的版本沒有行政院的版本原住民族教育法103年這個原住民教育預算比例有1.2%調高為1.9%也沒有行政院版本"},{"start":831.189,"end":854.034,"text":"這剛講過了104年了111年上一屆地方民代的這些條例村里長的這個增加他的這個費用沒有行政院版本為什麼到了原住民的就說有違憲還好要謝謝再次謝謝院長沒有體複業所以"},{"start":859.042,"end":885.897,"text":"我們還是要解決這個問題跟習氏公務員出生還是要怎麼樣依法行政怎麼樣去解決這個問題我們有解決的途徑預算法第79條規定很清楚可以追加稅出預算因為依法律增加業務依有關法律因補列追加預算者"},{"start":886.769,"end":914.831,"text":"可以追加預算﹖而不要讓整個立法院﹖或者是整個行政院﹖為了這個就傷腦筋﹖就那麼十幾億的錢﹖對不對﹖就十幾億的錢﹖五十幾億就賣一點好了﹖就先用十幾億的錢﹖五十三億可以賣一點﹖最起碼十七億的部分先追加預算﹖"},{"start":917.389,"end":943.189,"text":"這個曾主委因為你過去在縣政府服務縣政府沒有基金你在文化園區服務他也沒有基金基金的運用各方面類你不是很了解沒有關係現在我就告訴你方法我也找過了主計長演名會就是要提主計長不可能幫你送"},{"start":944.278,"end":972.658,"text":"你要提案的到主席總署送到行政院辦理追加預算預算法第79條追加預算不要再用我剛剛講了綜合發展基金不能動資所以不能有另外一條路我知道但是不能不能用操資並結算"},{"start":974.878,"end":1003.784,"text":"不能用原住民族綜合發展基金抄資並結算不可以用走這條路你可能想走這條路不可以就辦追加算我跟監察委員執行被提名的時候我說中華民國政府沒有窮到要違法挪用原住民族綜合發展基金我再次的說中華民國政府"},{"start":1004.673,"end":1026.511,"text":"沒有窮到為了17億要再次繼續挪用原住民綜合發展基金所以不用回應了我就請院長能夠接受原民會的提案也請主席總署能夠支持這個部分"},{"start":1029.795,"end":1056.355,"text":"院長我們就往這個方向去努力也不要再讓這個總預算114年度的總預算在這邊來來回回可以嗎非常謝謝政委員算是從法制面來提供一個想法跟一個做法那這個計劃補償本來法案在修訂過程當中在制定過程當中"},{"start":1058.274,"end":1070.075,"text":"可以看得出來這不是黨派問題對所以各黨各派的委員都在裡面所以這不是黨派的立場而是基於行政跟立法之間兩院的關係"},{"start":1071.078,"end":1088.5,"text":"行政院制定跟編列預算大院來審議預算所以如果用一個法律就可以增加一筆預算或是一個特定的對象透過一個法律來增加一個預算未來磁力一開行政院無法掌握預算"},{"start":1089.369,"end":1107.104,"text":"法律會越來越多預算會越來越高我們全國性整體性的衡量評估規劃就失去了他的意義所以重點在這裡而不是黨派之爭沒有黨派的立場那這一點謝謝委員的理解那未來要用怎麼樣的方式來處理這個事情"},{"start":1110.666,"end":1132.158,"text":"結算的過程當中我們很清楚的表示3萬元的淨化補償補貼如果能夠提升循序漸進的先編列為4萬行政院是可以接受的我們可以衡量所以我們這次是編了預算編了4萬我也跟原民會講說你們如果認為這個很急那你裡面其他的費用要自己去挪用"},{"start":1132.998,"end":1142.63,"text":"如果你們認為其他的更急那這個費用要好好的跟立法院大院來做協商那至於說現在已經形成這個樣子我只希望說此利不可開"},{"start":1144.033,"end":1171.528,"text":"此例一開沒有辦法完成這個行政院預算的完整性我為什麼沒有提復議我也知道復議的結果是怎麼樣只增加兩院之間所以我們會有一個最終的一個救濟的方式但是我們現在還不想我們做我們希望透過協商來討論這個事情但原則是用一個法律增加預算此例再開行政院無法掌握預算的完整性這個請委員能夠理解院長"},{"start":1173.444,"end":1174.425,"text":"謝謝委員的建議花東回家的路"},{"start":1201.435,"end":1227.81,"text":"這個是這一次這個山陀鵝颱風所造成的113年10月2號當時蘇花公路搶修經過要謝謝交通部還有公路總局搶修之後就通車了192號那天天氣很好因為山陀鵝易走環流一直在南部"},{"start":1231.08,"end":1255.635,"text":"10月2號蘇花公路上午開放三次通行我要謝謝下午又開放兩次通行到了昨天一樣經過一個搶修之後一樣安全無疑之下三次開放通行我要談的是"},{"start":1256.906,"end":1284.152,"text":"同樣是交通部首瑕的﹖雖然他已經是國營化這個9月9月30號臺鐵公司發了第一個就開始這是9月30號10月10點52分花東沒有辦法到臺北不能到花蓮花蓮也不能到臺北這樣一個情形"},{"start":1285.66,"end":1314.41,"text":"一直到10月3號還是一樣停止一直到昨天晚上我一直等一直等到了昨天晚上9點多發了今天可以通行的這個部分啊院長部長都去看了很多次不是留下來先受影響的是公路"},{"start":1316.206,"end":1342.508,"text":"公路受到很大影響才會到鐵路所以那天這兩天啊天氣都很好的所以這個部分啊鐵路局要積極台鐵公司要積極一點我以前當公務員會主動打電話到氣象局現在是氣象署我要了解我們到山區到底颱風的狀況會影響到怎麼樣"},{"start":1345.831,"end":1373.626,"text":"他可以問﹖這是你們首屬的﹖他可以問氣象署﹖這個地區的乙量如何﹖人還可以親自去看﹖到底是如何﹖鐵果有沒有怎麼樣﹖所以﹖很多的鄉親﹖因為什麼事情來到臺北﹖北部回不去﹖很多北部的鄉親回到﹖要去花蓮﹖"},{"start":1374.602,"end":1375.442,"text":"北回鐵路"},{"start":1396.98,"end":1418.257,"text":"那個部長非常年輕的時候開始通行的可能3歲的時候吧部長年輕的時候北威鐵路通行從動工到通行花了6年的時間北威鐵路是最困難的非常多的隧道它是最困難的"},{"start":1421.784,"end":1450.951,"text":"蘇阿改蘇阿改從97年11月10號行政院合定可行性研究到這個通車109年1月6號從行政院合定可行性研究到通車花了11年然後從97年行政院合定可行性研究到動工動工喔"},{"start":1452.972,"end":1476.454,"text":"開始動工是兩年兩個月就是從核定可行性研究到開始動工花兩年兩個月然後11年通測接下來的就是蘇化安現在發生災情的都是在蘇化安的位置好"},{"start":1477.948,"end":1502.89,"text":"蘇瓦安的原姓七個部落 原住民的部落全部同意依原紀法行使同意 全部同意然後呢 環評 經過幾次的環評 也通過了好 我們看目前的議題108年12月20號 行政院核定可行性研究"},{"start":1506.009,"end":1531.329,"text":"108年核定到現在都還沒有開始要動工在這樣的一個情形之下已經五年多了近五年了將近五年我剛講了兩年多朱瓦安是兩年多就動工了現在已經五年多了還沒有動工然後預計完工的日期年份"},{"start":1532.25,"end":1548.383,"text":"一再的展演所以這個部分這個就是要行政院這邊能夠支持當然最重要的就是交通部要趕快送啊要報啊 要報行政院啊報告委員現在正在國發會"},{"start":1550.966,"end":1574.719,"text":"報告委員陳部長非常的了解﹖也掌握整個進度﹖包括東部的鐵公路﹖如何盡快的修繕﹖盡快的通車都掌握到了﹖剛剛委員所提到的樹花庵﹖目前的最新的進度﹖也在國發會裡﹖在審議當中謝謝國發會主動來 主委報告委員目前我們已經函各單位在回覆意見中我們預計10月15號開審議委員會"},{"start":1577.711,"end":1592.044,"text":"那這個是院交辦要加速辦理的所以呢我們會很謹慎而且快速的把它完成那另外也跟委員報告齁因為這個如果要開始動的話就需要預算所以我們的總預算要趕快過我們就可以很快的來動工"},{"start":1593.516,"end":1612.242,"text":"有編列到114年度預算嗎有5000多萬在114年度我有看5000多萬是不足的是不足所以需要再更多一些所以要拜託委員在總預算的部分能夠幫忙總長將近30公里總預算會超過1050億以上明年我們就會開始那現在只要這樣子國發費"},{"start":1623.938,"end":1638.203,"text":"請各部會來各種意見之後我們就會看明年就會順利的公示我也相信我也期待這個預算在明年能夠順利的執行會通過啦謝謝委員你要努力要拜託禁法補償的費用17億而已好這個好我們的國防部請國防部長來這個"},{"start":1652.145,"end":1673.349,"text":"本席幾乎每一個院長來我都質詢了國軍志願役士兵大幅下降我們看這個國防部的這個預算以創新高明年又在足額上場總額達到6470億新台幣我常說我們也要問這個"},{"start":1683.1,"end":1712.295,"text":"我沒有反對最重要的是什麼我常說一句話你買再好的武器再精良的武器要不要人操作要不要軍人操作要軍人操作但是我們的退伍人員比招募士兵的還這個士兵士兵是第一最重要的"},{"start":1713.379,"end":1735.47,"text":"而自願役的士兵：比這個義乎義的更重要我們看自願役士兵大幅下降這個109啊自願役的士兵5萬4千757其實5萬4千都不算多了已經是太少了到113 4萬1670114剩下3萬6千多"},{"start":1742.585,"end":1742.865,"text":"臺灣勞工的基本"},{"start":1771.365,"end":1798.191,"text":"基本工資每年調平均薪資達到4萬6千多了平均薪資我們的還是這麼低 我也執行過好幾次所以很重要的你沒有增加這個志願役的薪資誰去當兵何況誰誰要打仗打仗沒有關係"},{"start":1800.353,"end":1822.615,"text":"但是要有戰力這個就是備戰備戰最重要的就是還是要有士兵一無一士兵現在一無一只有一年根本沒辦法打戰我當兩年多也沒辦法打戰所以還是要靠自願意院長多支持國防部"},{"start":1824.165,"end":1838.81,"text":"跟委員報告現在委員關心的主要是基層的士官兵現在主要是上市以上大概都超過這個勞工平均經常性的性質就上市以上都超過那現在就是"},{"start":1864.253,"end":1871.999,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝鄭委員下一位我們請徐富奎委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:11:37 - 11:42:55","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155059","gazette":{"lineno":670,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時12分）江副院長、卓院長、各部會首長，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長好。"],["卓院長榮泰：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：首先感謝院長多次來到花蓮，了解和協助花蓮解決相關的交通問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也要謝謝鄭委員，我去花蓮，你每次都會跟我們一起看看各地，雖然你沒有在現場發表很多看法，但是我看到你跟各鄉鎮長、各地方首長私底下都有互動，也都了解他們的狀況，而且也透過各種機會跟我談到很多，這一點非常的感謝，我們希望共同努力來把事情都做好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝，我們先看今天大家所關心的總預算，之所以沒有辦法交付審查的緣由，我先把主題、結論講出來，行政院應該依預算法第七十九條追加預算，第一要補足禁伐補償的費用，第二要返還違法挪用綜合發展基金的五十三億多的錢，理由如下：森林法第十條規定，原住民保留地被限制採伐，然後森林法第三十一條規定，禁止砍伐我們自己在原住民保留地上所種植的林木，也明確的規定要發補償金，「得請求補償金」，這個主管機關是農業部；原住民族基本法第二十一條規定得很清楚：「政府或法令限制原住民族利用前項土地（就是原住民族土地）及自然資源時……受限制所生之損失，應由該主管機關（也就是農業部）寬列預算補償之」，但是長年以來都是原民會在編預算。我的前輩簡東明立委從101年開始，當然我的前輩曾華德就開始提了，簡東明立委101年提案，經濟及內政委員會，經濟委員會主審。經濟及內政委員會從102年到104年審查了，102年到104年是6次黨團協商，經過黨團協商之後，104年8月，當時行政院就交代了原民會編列預算，法律還沒通過喔！先編列了預算。104年12月18日，這個三讀通過，105年1月6日公布施行禁伐補償條例，第二條訂的執行機關是誰？農委會。補償事宜由行政院編列預算，當初是寫行政院編列預算，但還是交給原民會。108年行政院提案修了第三條，108年，改為主管機關，主管機關變誰呢？原民會。這是法律上禁伐補償的整個緣由。","我們看原住民族基本法第十八條，這個是原住民族綜合發展基金的法源，「政府應設原住民族綜合發展基金，辦理原住民族經濟發展業務」，辦理原住民族「經濟發展業務」。原住民族綜合發展基金收支保管及運用辦法第三條，以及預算書，行政院送來的預算書，這個預算書裡面特別明定「本基金為『預算法第四條第一項第二款第四目』特種基金。」是什麼呢？「凡付出仍可收回」的特種基金。付出去還可以收回，譬如貸款，貸款、經濟貸款本金會收回來，還有利息可以收回來。禁伐補償就沒有這個，發出去收不回來。我們看明（114）年度原住民族綜合發展基金預算書，寫得很清楚，就是我剛剛唸的，預算法第四條第一項第二款第四目，「凡付出仍可收回」的。寫得很清楚，預算書都是這樣寫。","我們看歷年，105年度開始沒有動用到基金，有餘額。公務預算有餘額，沒有動用到基金。從106年開始，公務預算跟綜合發展基金共同編列，所以按照剛才我講的原基法第十八條，按照預算法規定，這個都是違法挪用的金額，就是在後面那個紅字的部分。經過本席多次質詢，立法院也作了決議，事實上伍麗華也做了質詢，不應該用綜合發展基金，所以113年度，就是今年，沒有用到綜合發展基金，只有公務預算的補助，因此114年度也應該要這樣。","這個剛剛已經說過了，總共加起來違法挪用了五十三億九千多萬。立法院作過決議，不得再用綜合發展基金了，這個作過決議。行政院仍持續地一直到112年度，一直到113年度才做了正確的預算編列。","我們看這個基金，綜合發展基金，報告院長，我在省政府擔任原住民行政局副局長的時候，因為省議員的要求，我們開始編列以前的原住民族經濟事業發展基金，精省之後來到中央，改為原住民族綜合發展基金，立法委員也是一樣，一再要求要寬籌編列，每年要由公務預算補助。","我們看這個預算書，這是105年到12月31日的決算數，基金淨值是一一七億七千多萬。當初的目標就是100億，要做什麼用呢？因為我們貸款很困難，我們的土地是保留地，原住民保留地要貸款銀行不要，所以必須透過綜合發展基金做為我們的小銀行。當初的目標是這樣，有它的一個目的，為了經濟發展。你看這個淨值，到105年12月31日是117億。","接下來這是114年度的預算書，你看看，累積短絀已經是63億，是負的喔！短絀是什麼意思？我特別查了字典，就是財源不足。所以是財源不足63億，預計到114年度，累積短絀六十七億多。從一百多億的錢，現在變成累積短絀這麼多！所以我們才會提出。我也曾經質詢過監察委員被提名人，他是學法律的，他說禁伐補償和經濟發展是不同的概念，他也是這樣認為，所以很可惜，他沒有做調查。","在這樣的情形之下，我們來看到底有沒有違憲。到底有沒有違憲？我們先看禁伐補償的整個審查，這次的版本從113年高金素梅委員提案，113年3月20號本席也提案，接下來盧縣一委員也提案、伍麗華委員也提案，4月的時候內政委員會審查通過，通過之後，113年4月24號陳瑩委員也提案，然後開始朝野協商，朝野協商之後就表決通過。這次整個修法有跨黨派72位立委提案或連署，72位耶！其中民進黨的立委有32位之多，還包含了黨團的吳思瑤幹事長，也有其他幹部，都有啊！是在這樣的情形之下，立法院做了決議，而且是這麼多跨黨派立委所通過的法律，對於這個歷程，你們甚至還可以抹黑！","比如說盧縣一6萬，貴黨立委伍麗華6萬、陳瑩6萬，高金素梅5萬，鄭天財5萬。是這樣來的啊！我們背負這個，但是我們不在意，沒有關係，我們的重點就是要協助原住民。根據中華民國憲法，對不對？謝謝院長，你沒有依憲法第五十七條提覆議，這要謝謝院長。既然沒有提覆議，就照案執行、依法執行嘛！","我也要舉例說明為什麼沒有違憲。99年2月11日，民進黨黨團提出東部發展條例草案，99年2月24日，國民黨黨團提出東部發展條例草案，99年5月5日，王廷升提出東部發展條例草案，楊仁福立委說要改為花東地區發展條例，後來通過了，名稱叫花東地區發展條例。預算多少呢？要編列400億的花東基金，沒有行政院的提案，400億的花東基金就這樣通過了，照案執行。還有很多，老年農民福利津貼，當初100年12月也是沒有行政院的版本。原住民族教育法，103年原住民教育預算比例由1.2%調高為1.9%，也沒有行政院版本。104年的，這個剛才講過了。111年上一屆，地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例，增加他的費用，沒有行政院版本。為什麼到了原住民的就說有違憲？還好，要再次謝謝院長沒有提覆議。","所以我們還是要解決這個問題，本席是公務員出身，還是要依法行政，怎麼樣去解決這個問題，我們有解決的途徑。預算法第七十九條規定得很清楚，可以追加歲出預算，因為依法律增加業務、依有關法律應補列追加預算者，可以追加預算，而不要讓整個立法院或者是整個行政院為了這個去傷腦筋，就那麼十幾億的錢，對不對？就十幾億的錢，五十幾億就慢一點好了，先用十幾億的錢，53億可以慢一點，最起碼17億的部分先追加預算。","曾主委，因為你過去在縣政府服務，縣政府沒有基金；你在文化園區服務，它也沒有基金。基金的運用、各方面編列，你不是很了解，沒有關係，現在我就告訴你方法，我也找過主計長，原民會就是要提啊！主計長不可能幫你送，你要提案到主計總處，主計總處送到行政院辦理追加預算，依預算法第七十九條追加預算，不要再用……"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我剛剛講了，綜合發展基金不能動支，所以不能……有另外一條路，我知道，但是不能用原住民族綜合發展基金超支併結算，不可以走這條路，你可能想走這條路，不可以！就辦追加預算，我質詢監察委員被提名人時，我說中華民國政府沒有窮到要違法挪用原住民族綜合發展基金，我再次的說，中華民國政府沒有窮到為了17億，要再次繼續挪用原住民綜合發展基金！所以不用回應，我就請院長能夠接受原民會的提案，也請主計總處能夠支持這個部分。院長，我們就往這方向去努力，也不要再讓114年度的總預算在那邊來來回回，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝鄭委員，算是從法制面來提供一個想法跟一個作法，禁伐補償本來法案在修訂過程中、在制定過程當中，可以看得出來這不是黨派問題……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：各黨各派的委員都在裡面，所以這不是黨派的立場，而是基於行政跟立法之間兩院的關係，行政院制定跟編列預算，大院來審議預算，所以如果用一個法律就可以增加一筆預算，或是一個特定的對象透過一個法律來增加一個預算，未來此例一開，行政院無法掌握預算，法律會越來越多，預算會越來越高，我們全國性、整體性的衡量、評估、規劃，就失去了它的意義，所以重點在這裡，而不是黨派之爭，沒有黨派的立場，這一點謝謝委員的理解。","那未來要用怎麼樣的方式來處理這個事情？其實在協商的過程當中，我們很清楚地表示，3萬元的禁伐補償補貼如果能夠提升，循序漸進的先編列為4萬，行政院是可以接受的，我們可以衡量，所以我們這次的預算是編了4萬。我也跟原民會講說，你們如果認為這個很急，那你裡面其他的費用要自己去挪用，如果你們認為其他的更急，那這個費用要好好的跟立法院大院來做協商，至於說現在已經形成這個樣子，我只希望說此例不可開，此例一開，沒有辦法完成行政院預算的完整性，我為什麼沒有提覆議？我也知道覆議的結果是怎麼樣，只增加兩院之間……所以我們會有一個最終的救濟方式，但是我們現在還不想這樣做，我們希望透過協商來討論這個事情，但原則是用一個法律增加預算，此例再開，行政院無法掌握預算的完整性，這個請委員能夠理解。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長，原住民不是第一個開例的，我剛剛有舉了很多例子，原住民不是第一個開例的，而且這個預算真的不多，就請參採本席唯有依法行政的一個途徑，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的建議，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。花東回家的路，這個是這一次山陀兒颱風所造成的，113年10月2號，當時蘇花公路搶修……我要謝謝交通部還有公路總局，搶修之後就通車了，10月2號，那天天氣很好，因為山陀兒欲走還留，一直在南部。10月2號蘇花公路上午開放3次通行，我要謝謝，下午又開放2次通行，到了昨天一樣，經過又搶修之後，一樣在安全無虞之下3次開放通行。我要談的是，同樣是交通部所轄的，雖然它已經是國營化，9月30號臺鐵公司發了第一個就開始，這是9月30號10點52分，花東沒有辦法到……臺北不能到花蓮，花蓮也沒有辦法到臺北，有這樣的情形。一直到10月3號還是一樣停駛，一直到昨天晚上，我一直等一直等，到了昨天晚上9點多發了今天可以通行。這個部分院長、部長都去看了很多次，土石流下來，先受影響的是公路，公路受到很大影響才會到鐵路，那這兩天天氣都很好，所以這個部分鐵路局要積極，臺鐵公司要積極一點。","我以前當公務員會主動打電話到氣象局，現在是氣象署，我要了解我們山區到底颱風的狀況會影響到怎麼樣。他可以問，都是你們所屬的，可以問氣象署這個地區的雨量如何，人還可以親自去看到底路是如何、鐵軌有沒有怎麼樣，所以很多的鄉親因為什麼事情來到臺北，北部回不去，很多北部的鄉親要去花蓮、臺東也回不去，所以這個部分要檢討改進。","我們看這個，蘇花安遙遙無期，要特別請院長支持。我們先看北迴鐵路，這個是我們部長非常年輕的時候開始通行的，可能是3歲的時候吧！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你在很年輕的時候，北迴鐵路通行了。"],["陳部長世凱：是我小時候。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：從動工到通行花了6年的時間，北迴鐵路是最困難的，有非常多的隧道，它是最困難的。蘇花改從97年11月10日行政院核定可行性研究到109年1月6日通車花了11年；97年行政院核定可行性研究到開始動工是2年2個月，然後花11年通車。接下來的就是蘇花安，現在發生災情的都是在蘇花安的位置，蘇花安沿線有7個原住民的部落，依原基法行使同意權全部同意，然後經過幾次的環評也通過了。","好，我們看目前的預計。108年12月20日行政院核定可行性研究，108年核定到現在都還沒有開始要動工，在這樣的情形之下已經近5年。我剛剛講了，蘇花改是兩年多就動工了，現在已經五年多了還沒有動工，然後預計完工的日期、年份一再地展延，所以這個部分就是要行政院來支持，當然最重要的就是你交通部要趕快送啊！要報行政院啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，現在正在國發會。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，陳部長非常地瞭解，也掌握了整個進度，包括東部的鐵公路要如何儘快地修繕、儘快地通車都掌握到了。剛剛委員提到的蘇花安，目前最新的進度也在國發會裡審議當中，我們希望能夠……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝國發會主委主動出來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：報告委員，目前我們已經函各單位在回復意見中，我們預計10月15號開審議委員會，這個是院交辦要加速辦理的，所以我們會很謹慎而快速地把它完成。"],["陳部長世凱：另外也跟委員報告，這個如果要開始動的話就需要預算，所以我們的總預算要趕快過，就可以很快地動工。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有編到114年度的預算嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有，有五千多萬在114年度裡。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我有看啦，但是五千多萬是不足的啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是，是不足，還要再更多一些，所以要拜託委員在總預算的部分能夠幫忙。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該清楚，這個總長將近30公里。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：總預算會超過1,050億以上，明年我們就會開始，現在只要這樣子，國發會請各部會提出各種意見之後，我們明年就會順利地有共識，我相信也期待這個預算在明年能夠順利地執行。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：會通過啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，要努力地拜託……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：但是要解決禁伐補償的費用，17億而已。","好，請國防部長來。這個議題，幾乎每個院長來本席都會質詢，國軍志願役士兵大幅下降。我們看國防部的預算是屢創新高，明年的又再足額上漲，總額達到新臺幣6,470億。我沒有要問這個，我沒有反對，最重要的是什麼？我常說一句話，你買再好的武器、再精良的武器，要不要有人操作？要不要有軍人操作？要軍人操作，但是我們的退伍人員比招募的士兵還多。士兵是第一，最重要的，而志願役的士兵比義務役的更重要！","我們看，志願役士兵大幅下降，109年志願役的士兵5萬4,757，其實五萬四千多不算多，已經是太少啦！到113年，4萬1,670，114年剩下三萬六千多，這裡面還有提早離開的，有的不適應，就提早離開了。","還有薪資，你看這個薪資，三萬多塊的薪資，在裡面沒有自由，很辛苦的，我們都當過兵，沒有自由，很辛苦的，才三萬多塊。臺灣勞工的基本工資每年調，平均薪資達到四萬六千多，我們志願役的還是這麼低！我有質詢過好幾次，所以很重要的，你們沒有增加志願役的薪資，誰去當兵？何況隨時要打仗，打仗沒有關係，但是要有戰力，這個就是備戰，備戰最重要的還是要有士兵，現在義務役只有1年，根本沒有辦法打仗！我當兩年多也沒有辦法打仗，所以還是要靠志願役。院長，多支持國防部！"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，現在委員關心的主要是基層的士官兵，現在上士以上的大概都超過勞工的平均經常性薪資，就上士以上的都超過，現在中士以下的這個部分還沒有，所以在這個部分我們會來進行研討，就是如何就基層……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，看你還是沒有感覺，所以還是回去……"],["顧部長立雄：我們已經……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：多瞭解為什麼這些士兵會離開，就為什麼招募的士兵沒有辦法補足，這個還是多瞭解。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員建議，這是一個非常值得研議的議題，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":25,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-04"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137701_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-04","影片長度":"00:16:11","end_time":"2024-10-04T11:11:27+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155058","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","duration":971,"start_time":"2024-10-04T10:55:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/045a6e837d73a06ac3108a067087a7b77a8a9d3d5bde67044d1f922496ff12d7d3a823a3a41615605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.28409375000000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.41471875,"end":2.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.64659375,"end":3.3215937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.840343750000001,"end":6.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.74534375,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.06159375,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.46221875,"end":22.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.91346875,"end":24.246593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.31409375,"end":26.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.41534375,"end":24.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.73596875,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.69346875,"end":54.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.07721875,"end":57.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.266593750000006,"end":59.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.414093750000006,"end":62.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.93659375000001,"end":66.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.10909375,"end":68.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.13409375,"end":70.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.73721875000001,"end":72.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.54284375,"end":73.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.51721875,"end":75.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.06971875,"end":77.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.65159375,"end":81.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.00971875,"end":82.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.61284375000001,"end":84.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.74346875,"end":85.73909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.97096875000001,"end":88.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.50221875000001,"end":91.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.47659375,"end":93.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.56909375000001,"end":95.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.59409375,"end":96.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.82596875,"end":99.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.59346875,"end":100.25159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.63971875,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.69409375000001,"end":105.56721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.03971875,"end":106.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.20409375000001,"end":108.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.54971875000001,"end":113.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.73534375000001,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.22471875000001,"end":110.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.59534375000001,"end":116.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.40096875,"end":118.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.57346875,"end":123.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.72471875000001,"end":124.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.03659375000001,"end":127.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.56784375,"end":131.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.04409375,"end":133.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.07784375,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.32221875000002,"end":137.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.96721875,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.06346875,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.81846875000002,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.47221875,"end":147.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.19346875000002,"end":149.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.98221875000002,"end":152.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.34471875,"end":155.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.24284375000002,"end":156.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.79971875,"end":159.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.76971875,"end":161.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.79471875000002,"end":163.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.48221875000002,"end":164.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.86596875,"end":165.70971875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阿富汗聯盟開了第二次的記者會這第二次的記者會是不給媒體發問的記者會3月29號 他提出了給教育部的"},{"start":324.275,"end":324.295,"text":"檢討報告"},{"start":343.578,"end":369.412,"text":"台中購置的不動產剛好是九千七百多萬他們說這筆預算在報告書上面他們寫他將有決心繼續使用正當的募款來募這九千八百萬我看到這樣子的報告我是非常的憤怒我不曉得我剛剛這一連串下來院長您心裡最後感受"},{"start":371.346,"end":386.725,"text":"對任何的暴力事件尤其是針對兒少受虐的情形我們心裡的悲痛是更加的加劇因為一個小生命的來臨他不知道為何而來他更不知道為何而走我們對他實在有太多太多的責任了"},{"start":387.455,"end":413.576,"text":"因此任何一個機關他既然從事這樣的一個出洋的這個服務的業務他必須要有更多更多的關懷他事後的追蹤跟過程的照顧絕對不能如此的疏失那這個部分現在關於這個單位他的主管機關改立成衛福部我也希望衛福部能夠依照部裡面真正專業的監督"},{"start":415.984,"end":444.267,"text":"認真執行這個工作那不僅針對這一個團體希望對所有的兒少青少年的團體都要嚴加的跟他們做更好的溝通在這依法依情依理的情況底下來做好所有的照護當然改了隸屬是進步的第一步這個是我們一直從過去到現在我跟林玉琴委員我們一直在追這個案子那9月初他已經確定改了隸屬到我們的衛福部"},{"start":445.626,"end":454.303,"text":"教育部長 曾部長早安早五月十七號您還記得我在質詢的時候也針對阿富汗聯盟"},{"start":455.768,"end":472.258,"text":"向您做了一個質詢當初其實我就是用他在108年購置3.7億的這個不動產的部分我看到他的報表其實他這103.7億的部分其實他是分裂在108年的2.24億跟109年的提列的1.55億"},{"start":477.666,"end":489.185,"text":"為什麼他會這麼提列兩筆主要是因為他可以達到業務支出的六成就可以免稅連我不是學會計的人我都看到了"},{"start":490.046,"end":510.761,"text":"但是在跟教育部的溝通上我從這些例子教育部給我的答案似乎就是針對他們所提供的財務業務上的報表數字上是沒有錯誤的所以無法可罰是這樣嗎跟委員報告我想這個案子"},{"start":512.708,"end":512.948,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":528.228,"end":529.069,"text":"跟委員來做報告"},{"start":553.74,"end":553.92,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":583.39,"end":607.947,"text":"我想處分兒童,我們先處分他停止新收出養童那我們基本上支持因為他9月30號許可證這期所以我們這次只核發一年的許可證一般是三年能處分,但是能處分不能新收出養童那另外在兒前法這個部分我們也會進步"},{"start":609.764,"end":639.18,"text":"正進行兒少全法的修法希望加強說出養每一個機構的管理力度以彌補現在法令的不足那當然我們會邀請本部也會邀請歐盟加強內外部的督導機制包括外部的督導還有加強人眼內部人眼的教育訓練強化對兒童內帶的辨識能力那我們也會邀請專家持續監督其改善情形以上"},{"start":639.892,"end":667.115,"text":"好我的重點是即使他是一個資產非常龐大的公益巨獸我們的良心跟我們的良知都不應該被吞噬所以凱凱案是全台灣人的痛我想我們站在這個地方我身為一個母親也身為一個公職人員其實我有義務再繼續把這個案子再關心下去也謝謝"},{"start":668.936,"end":689.23,"text":"接下來我想請教教育部的部分其實老師荒教師荒這部分最近有很多的報導除了報導其實從教育現場的第一線也收到了很多相關的資訊"},{"start":690.811,"end":691.251,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":702.868,"end":727.84,"text":"從2005年合發教師證當時應該算是最頂峰那個時候合發教師證的人數高達一萬八千多人但是到了2022年只剩下4906人但這4906人還有多少人是願意直接投入我們的校園當中擔任教職這個部分其實是一個非常大的問題因為不穩定的師資"},{"start":730.401,"end":730.701,"text":"李慧琼"},{"start":743.682,"end":768.869,"text":"這個是很大的一個問題我們有沒有想過會是什麼樣的原因有沒有可能因為爛訴有沒有可能因為老師的管教權被相對的剝奪了有沒有可能因為行政減量變成一種口號在我們的教育政策不斷的推陳出新的狀況之下很多的老師他不是只有在教書他可能還要跑班"},{"start":769.329,"end":769.449,"text":"教育部長"},{"start":792.992,"end":807.161,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個老師怎麼樣讓老師能夠安心專注於在這個學校的教學工作我想那是教育部一直在努力的也利用這個機會跟委員報告事實上在民國57年改制為"},{"start":809.262,"end":834.689,"text":"國民教育9年那大概一個世代30年也就是說他會形成一個世代30年的一個退休潮在上一個30年大概就是在90年左右他確實興起了一個退休潮所以他就世代的一個教師人力的一個替補他確實在那一個87年到92年那個達到高峰那麼以這一個數字來看這也是我進來以後我就要我們"},{"start":835.309,"end":855.475,"text":"施培師要注意掌握這個施肢的退休潮的人數也就是說如果用90年來看那大概在120年也就是說117年到120年左右這又會形成一個退休潮也就是說我們老師中小學老師在替補"},{"start":856.215,"end":879.447,"text":"的一個過程裡邊他事實上會有一個階段性所以委員所提的那一個在上一個在這一個階段裡邊大概我們會快速的補充了非常多的一些正式的老師那隨著這一個補到一定的一個世代交替到有一定的穩定的時候他確實所需求的一個教師人數他就會"},{"start":880.051,"end":880.251,"text":"主席"},{"start":895.663,"end":921.852,"text":"好導師也就是我們真的要強化這個現場教學的誘因導師是最直接面對孩子的最直接面對他的學生的那我們以導師職務的一個佳績的部分我剛剛有提到其實導師的工作非常繁重他的心理壓力跟生理上的壓力甚至於在專業上面的一個提供其實都是我們必須要很關心的光是以國中小"},{"start":925.606,"end":928.017,"text":"以2000塊錢增加到3000塊錢使用"},{"start":934.137,"end":936.298,"text":"在一個地方做一個"},{"start":964.681,"end":969.446,"text":"好謝謝謝謝郭委員謝謝左院長下一位請鄭天"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:55:16 - 11:11:27","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155058","gazette":{"lineno":626,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時55分）主席好，有請行政院院長。"],["主席：我們請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：院長早安，這兩天全臺灣都很辛苦，就是因為有颱風。剛剛其實我們已經都看到了明年度的總預算，其中有很大的一個部分，包含我們明年救災的新預算，治水有159億，防災的部分有76.9億，災害防救還有災害準備金、第二預備金，光是治水防災的預備金在新的年度預算是366億，剛剛又被藍白卡關了，這個部分院長心裡做何感受？這是救命錢啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我感到非常非常的遺憾，這兩天大家在家裡，其實我們的心都跟所有受災的居民一起懸著，從今天早上一直到剛剛為止，我還透過行政院裡面的各位幕僚，我們安排在今天晚上總質詢結束之後的時間要到哪個地方去看看，就是最需要去了解的地方。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：在明、後兩天也可能積極的南下看看受災、淹水或是路塌的地方，我們去無非就是關心災情，更重要的是如何復建。但是我們剛剛看到這樣子非常令人遺憾的結果，各地對我提出的，明年要怎麼樣來做系統性治水，明年要怎麼樣來做交通設施的安全維護跟修建，好像我只有一句話可以告訴他：等我向立法院爭取到預算再來答復各位吧！我覺得這是一個非常無奈的感覺。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛剛直接就是他們藍白聯手，等於他們不把我們明年度的中央總預算案列入議程，就是直接在這邊被卡關，其實我們也感同身受，因為這是很多的救命錢。"],["卓院長榮泰：不過要報告委員，時間還是有的，只要大院能夠儘速在未來的程序委員會讓它付委，我們還是積極的努力在今年度裡面完成這個預算，我們時間還是有的，所以我已經再度透過我們的秘書長跟韓國瑜院長也積極的要求，今天晚上在這個情況底下我們不宜做任何坐下來吃飯的動作，但是要積極的、迅速的找一個時間讓我們來解開這個結，我們看的是整體性、全國性的預算，而不是個別委員單選區的預算。"],["郭委員昱晴：沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們必須要極力的爭取。"],["郭委員昱晴：要儘快的付委，才能夠進行實質的審查，我們的救命錢才能夠真正看得到。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，因為今天我是總質詢的第1個委員，那我們先來看一下第1張，院長，這是國民寶寶剴剴，對剴剴案我在上一個會期大概已經質詢了7次，這次是第8次，我為什麼會針對剴剴案在教育及文化委員會當中質詢？就是因為在9月3號之前兒福聯盟還沒有改隸屬之前，它的主管機關之一就是我們的教育部，那剴剴是一個不到2歲的孩子，不到2歲的孩子其實是最天真、最可愛的，我自己是當媽媽的人，我相信其實在座有很多的爸爸媽媽們都知道一歲多的孩子是多麼可愛，但是我們非常的心疼，在兒福聯盟轉介到劉姓保母姐妹的手上之後，他在短短的114天內被凌虐身亡，他的年紀永遠停留在2023年那一個平安夜。從頭到尾兒福聯盟開過2次的記者會，第1次的記者會是在3月12號，3月11號媒體爆出，3月12號兒福聯盟開記者會說，他們也是看了媒體才知道的，這是多麼諷刺，因為劉姓保母就是在兒福聯盟所轉介的這樣一個合作的條件之下，才把剴剴送入虎口。","3月27號，兒福聯盟開了第2次的記者會，這第2次的記者會是不給媒體發問的記者會，3月29號，它提出了給教育部的一個檢討報告，檢討報告當中剴剴2個字隻字未提，只提到他們在2024年的總預算，他們自己的預算捉襟見肘，還缺九千八百多萬，而前一年度它在臺中購置的不動產剛好是九千七百多萬，這筆預算在報告書上面他們是寫，他們將有決心繼續使用正當的募款來募這9,800萬，看到這樣子的報告我是非常的憤怒，不曉得我剛剛這一連串下來，院長您心裡作何感受？"],["卓院長榮泰：對任何的暴力事件，尤其是針對兒少受虐的情形，我們心裡的悲痛是更加的加劇，因為一個小生命的來臨，他不知道為何而來，他更不知道為何而走，我們對他實在有太多、太多的責任，因此，任何一個機關它既然從事這樣一個出養服務的業務，它必須要有更多、更多的關懷，事後的追蹤跟過程的照顧絕對不能如此的疏失。現在這個單位的主管機關改隸成衛福部，我也希望衛福部能夠依照部裡面真正專業的監督，認真執行這個工作。不僅針對這一個團體，希望對所有的兒少、青少年的團體都要嚴加的跟他們做更好的溝通，在依法、依情、依理的情況底下來做好所有的照護。"],["郭委員昱晴：當然改了隸屬是進步的第一步，這個是我們一直從過去到現在，我跟林月琴委員一直在追這個案子，9月初它已經確定改了隸屬到我們的衛福部。教育部鄭部長，早安。"],["鄭部長英耀：早。"],["郭委員昱晴：5月17號，您還記得我在質詢的時候也針對兒福聯盟向您做了一個質詢，當初其實我就是用它在108年購置3.7億的不動產的部分，我看到它的報表，其實這3.7億的部分它是分列在108年的2.24億跟109年提列的1.55億，為什麼它會這麼提列2筆？主要是因為它可以達到業務支出的六成就可以免稅，連我不是學會計的人我都看到了，但是在跟教育部的溝通上，我從這些例子，教育部給我的答案似乎就是針對他們所提供的財務、業務上的報表，數字上是沒有錯誤的，所以無法可罰，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我想這個案子我們會再重新來檢討，因為它在內控還有各方面的一些行政跟整個組織的運作，確實有值得檢討的地方，我想我們會在會後再跟委員來做報告。"],["郭委員昱晴：非常好，我聽到了希望。因為在9月25號這個案子首度開庭的時候，其實我們都發現整個兒福聯盟，光從判決書是從媒體這邊披露的，在他們的判決書裡頭我們看到了，起訴書當中其實也看到了，整個兒福聯盟上到下，他們分了2個不同的對話群組，要做什麼？資料上的修補，也就是說，他們是一個共犯的結構，我想針對這個內部已經出現的重大疏失，教育部曾經還是它的重要主管，在9月3號之前，我們還是要追究下去，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：再來我要討論的是……","衛福部長，您有要補充的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們先處分兒盟停止新收出養童，基本上因為9月30號許可證屆期，所以我們這次只核發一年的許可證，一般是三年，能處分，但是能處分不能新收出養童。另外在兒權法這個部分，我們也正進行兒少權法修法，希望加強收出養每一個機構的管理力度，以彌補現在法令的不足。當然本部也會要求兒盟加強內、外部的督導機制，包括外部的督導，還有加強內部人員的教育訓練，強化對虐待兒童的辨識能力，我們也會邀請專家持續監督其改善情形，以上。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。我的重點是，即使它是一個資產非常龐大的公益巨獸，我們的良心跟我們的良知都不應該被吞噬，所以剴剴案是全臺灣人的痛，我想我們站在這個地方，我身為一個母親，也身為一個公職人員，其實我有義務再繼續把這個案子再關心下去，謝謝。衛福部長，謝謝您。","接下來我想請教的就是我們教育部的部分，其實教師荒這個部分最近有很多報導，除了報導，我們也從教育現場的第一線收到很多相關資訊。根據教育部的一個資料顯示，每年取得教師證核可的所謂擔任教師的比例是逐年在下滑當中，我們以2005年核發教師證，當時應該算是最頂峰，那個時候核發教師證的人數高達一萬八千多人，但是到了2022年只剩下4,906人，而這4,906人中還有多少人是願意直接投入我們校園當中擔任教職？這個部分其實是一個非常大的問題！因為不穩定的師資影響的就是受教的學生，我們真的看到了過去大家認為是鐵飯碗的教職，現在大家是連這個鐵飯碗都不想捧了！這個是很大的一個問題！我們有沒有想過會是什麼樣的原因？有沒有可能因為濫訴？有沒有可能因為老師的管教權被相對的剝奪了？有沒有可能因為行政減量變成一種口號？在我們的教育政策不斷推陳出新的狀況之下，很多老師不是只有在教書，他可能還要跑班、他可能課後還要關心學生、還要跟家長溝通，他甚至還要被交付，因為多元教學，他還要去充實自己，老師一天有多少時間可以用？再來，薪資上的不合理，人留不住，是不是都有可能會是最直接的原因？教育部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心怎麼樣讓老師能夠安心專注於學校的教學工作，我想那是教育部一直在努力的。也利用這個機會跟委員報告，事實上在民國57年改制為九年國民教育，大概一個世代30年，也就是說它會形成一個世代30年的退休潮，在上一個30年，大概就是在90年左右，它確實興起了一個退休潮，所以世代教師人力的遞補確實在87年到91、92年達到高峰。那麼，以這個數字來看，這也是我進來以後，我就要師培司注意掌握老師退休潮的人數；也就是說，如果用90年來看，大概在120年（就是117年到120年）左右又會形成一個退休潮；也就是中小學老師在遞補的過程，事實上會有一個階段性。所以委員所提的在這個階段，我們大概會快速補充非常多正式老師，隨著遞補到世代交替有一定穩定的時候，它所需求的教師人數確實就會相對遞減，那以這一個情況來講，我們怎麼樣去讓老師確實因為……"],["郭委員昱晴：我們要怎麼樣增加誘因，我直接進入到今天我的主題了，其實我剛剛還沒有講到我今天的主題，以導師來說，我們真的要強化現場教學的誘因。導師是最直接面對孩子的，最直接面對學生的，以導師的職務加給來說，我剛剛有提到，其實導師的工作非常繁重，他的心理壓力跟生理上的壓力，甚至於在專業上的一個提供，其實都是我們必須要很關心的，但是國中小導師的職務加給，自從101年從2,000塊錢增加到3,000塊錢以後，已經12年沒有調整；高中導師的加給106年從2,000塊錢增加到3,000塊錢，已經7年沒有調整；更不用講所謂的特殊教育導師，是從80年到現在33年沒有調整，一個月就只多1,800元，這個部分我覺得是一個非常大的問題。今天因為時間的關係，真的不好意思，我們可能要回到委員會……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們內部確實已經針對整體教師包括特教老師的職務加給，在跟地方研議，等到有共識的時候，就會跟院長報告。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝，謝謝院長，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["委員郭昱晴書面補充資料：","案由：本院委員郭昱晴有鑑於近年取得教師資格人數大幅下滑，加上現場學校專任教師與代理、代課教師，開學至今仍有大量缺額，為確保教師來源穩定，照顧學生受教權益，此外，特教助理員為普特融合的核心，勞動部9月19日公告明年度基本工資調漲，特教助理員薪資也應等比提高，爰請行政院、教育部等相關部會重視相關議題，並提出改善方案。","說明：","一、導師職務加給法治化，國中小教師檐任導師自101年從2,000元調整為3,000元已有12年未調整，高中教師擔任導師自106年從2,000元調整為3,000元7年未調整、特殊教育教師擔任班導師更是從80年1,800元33年未調整。","二、教師待遇條例第13條第一項第一款之職務加給：對兼任主管職務者、導師或擔任特殊教育者加給之。主管職務加給與導師加給屬於同性質，主管職務加給受到軍公教調薪近八年共調11%，114年也預告調薪3%，而導師加給卻沒有，應建立相關制度同步調整，以免專任教師不願意接任導師職位。","三、教育部提出「提升高級中等以下學校及幼兒園特教學生助理人員服務品質計畫」八月一日起，月薪制31,000元，時薪制比照基本工資183元，但勞動部於9月19日公告明年度基本工資調漲月薪制調漲4.08%達28,590元，部分工時調漲3.8%達190元，特教助理員應調整，以利徵才。","四、此外，因預算規模有限，從八月一日起，已接獲部分工時特教助理員，有減時數之現況，恐影響學生受教權與教師班級經營困境，加上看的到吃不到的加薪條件，衝擊特教助理員留才，將影響學生受教權利，需仰賴行政院支持相關預算。","案由：本院委員郭昱晴有鑑於公立收容所人力分布不均、收容能量與TNVR政策施行狀況不足以應付當前流浪動物問題，爰請行政院、農業部等相關部會重視本議題，並提出改善方案。","說明：","一、據農業部提供資料，目前全國公立收容所收容所管理員300人、駐公立動物收容處所獸醫師147人，總體人數尚堪負荷。然根據《動物收容處所設置組織準則》建議「每40隻動物設一名工作人員，每100隻動物設一名獸醫」比例，全台32處收容所反而許多都不合格。","二、「改善政府動物管制收容設施計畫」剩下臺南市工程115年結束後即全數完成。不過完成後合計犬隻留容最大值仍然不到萬隻，不可能期望以收容方式解決全台16萬隻遊蕩犬問題。","三、TNVR政策實施多年，然近年多有研究指出，若區域內放養、餵食不盡絕，上億經費做TNVR也不會有成效，農業部應提出應對方法。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":25,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-04"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137701_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-04","影片長度":"00:03:15","end_time":"2024-10-04T09:27:48+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155057","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","duration":195,"start_time":"2024-10-04T09:24:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/045a6e837d73a06afb303ebe3777bc2b7a8a9d3d5bde67044d1f922496ff12d761e60d5d759f24045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.42284375,"end":4.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.19471875,"end":7.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.77659375,"end":10.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.961593750000002,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.328468750000003,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.47534375,"end":19.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.42034375,"end":20.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.10784375,"end":22.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.352218750000002,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.32221875,"end":27.199718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.452843750000003,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.97534375,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.134718750000005,"end":41.189093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.35784375,"end":46.572218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.01096875,"end":48.884093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.35659375,"end":52.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.61346875,"end":53.625968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.79471875,"end":54.385343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.570968750000006,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.35534375,"end":65.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.53971875,"end":66.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.33284375000001,"end":74.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.39471875000001,"end":88.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.82721875,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.46409375,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.32471875,"end":97.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.44596875,"end":103.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.06534375000001,"end":105.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.71909375000001,"end":106.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.32221875,"end":110.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.50721875,"end":115.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.50659375000001,"end":116.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.41784375,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.69909375,"end":131.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.36471875,"end":144.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.02096875,"end":147.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.31596875,"end":183.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.28846875000002,"end":189.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.73971875,"end":194.65034375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.442,"end":30.435,"text":"各位國人同胞早首先我先要感謝在颱風第一線執勤的我們的所有的軍警義校那對於嘉義的鄉親如果因為颱風所造成的不管是農業損失還是其他的災害我們是希望未來相關的部會能夠重塑重寬認戀那今天的國事論壇除了颱風之外我想要特別針對兩個主題那跟我國的基礎建設基礎設施是有關係的"},{"start":32.265,"end":56.775,"text":"臺風過後大雨會讓這個河流水量暴增那當然自來水廠會加一些更多的濾來去過濾水池那水公司也會提醒民眾要取自來水之後先煮沸之後再來飲用那特別是在災情之後但是在我們許多嘉峪山區的縣民他們有這種煩惱為什麼因為他們現在還沒有自來水可以使用"},{"start":57.595,"end":74.808,"text":"這個原因是在於沒有自來水地區的供水改善計畫各縣市的無自來水沿管的申請案水利署部會還是以每戶工程成本不超過60萬元為審查標準只要超過60萬元那經濟部水利署就不會同意"},{"start":75.441,"end":97.332,"text":"那許多嘉義山區的申請用戶都是地區偏遠還有戶數密數低那如果他們要申請自來水鹽管每戶工程的成本都是100多萬元超過60萬元的標準這樣的話這些案子通常都會駁回那我必須要強調從我們賴總統上任至今有一個非常重要的一個主要的主軸那就是均衡台灣"},{"start":98.693,"end":124.838,"text":"這個不是個案 也不是加一線獨有是全國山區偏鄉都可能有的問題我們希望經濟部能夠來訂立另外一個專案專門來處理山區跟偏遠地區的自來水鹽管的問題水是人民的基本人權我們當然是重視產業發展但是我們不希望說我們山區的民眾看得到水卻沒有辦法使用自來水那這個部分我會要求我們經濟部在全力的協助"},{"start":125.748,"end":143.97,"text":"那第二個部分我想最近大家都知道在中東的局勢那不斷的在升高但是以色列他們由於公民的冷靜應對那其實在上一次伊朗所發射的180多枚飛彈上他們沒有 迄今沒有知道有什麼重大的傷亡的案例"},{"start":145.203,"end":173.711,"text":"這是因為早在2016年在以色列就已經由以色列後方司令部開發這個相關的應用程式他可以根據本身的位置計算到安全處所的時間還可以整理好所有全域的保護區域室內的保護空間還有其他危險物質的事件行為的指引那我必須強調我們當我們談到名利當我們談到民訪的時候其實在以色列所面對周遭"},{"start":174.231,"end":176.492,"text":"謝謝陳委員登記國事論壇發言的委員均已發言完畢現在休息"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:24:33 - 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污水下水道象徵一個都市真的是個翻身的機會讓他更乾淨那是不是內政部將來也是要跟地方政府再多做的協調預算這方面我們透過程序來編列那執行的工作還是要拜託地方政府那過程怎麼樣請部長來說明"},{"start":231.741,"end":252.231,"text":"報告委員我想你都知道現在國土署的分署正在審查當中那我們如果分署審查完了又需要發包我們一定按照原來的採購的發包程序在辦理然後你有提到說那個預算是不是不夠我想不會因為一個整體計劃如果通過之後他就分一二三四期慢慢來往前推進我們會跟新北市政府一起來努力"},{"start":253.096,"end":253.597,"text":"謝謝部長跟院長"},{"start":283.256,"end":312.171,"text":"我們一起來爭取當時其實過去綜合交流道在尖峰的時期它每個小時的這個車流量高達4000部所以過去都會一直塞車那我們在上個會期的時候我們一起來努力現在很多鄉親從南部就是往北在綜合往綜合的方向因為當時已經爭取了3000萬的經費把這個路肩給取消把路肩給重新來鋪設所以現在如果很多綜合的鄉親從中南部回來"},{"start":314.073,"end":325.528,"text":"會發現出口變雙車道增加一倍的車流量所以已經不是這麼塞車了可是過去一直以來還有一個問題就是說不管是北向跟南向"},{"start":326.497,"end":346.548,"text":"都會遇到一個問題就是說有些車子要往中和交流道往中和的方向去走那一定有些車子要往板橋往64的方向跑結果會造成道路交織的問題所以高空局就規劃了14.9億需要偵測閘道把閘道的這些標示往前拉"},{"start":347.428,"end":369.73,"text":"未來讓民眾可以提早做這個分流的狀況那希望未來可以慢慢的一步一步降低這個塞車的問題可是現在當時這個計畫我再重新報告一次當時在陳建仁院長的時候是可行性評估報告有通過那現在的部分因為這個整個計畫要7年所以我們可以看到下一個表現在還在113年的這個部分"},{"start":371.992,"end":372.373,"text":"行政院院長"},{"start":390.171,"end":416.316,"text":"之前是需要說113年的年底就可以核准那他當然還有抓了幾個月的這個緩衝期那我希望說現在已經送到國發會了那也希望說行政院這邊可以來協助看是不是在113年的年底就順利來核准因為整個工期其實要當打7年的時間那我剛剛也跟部長跟院長報告過了這個交通塞車的問題一定要快速來解決所以是不是這邊可以拜託院長"},{"start":417.136,"end":418.698,"text":"目前的整個程序到現在的生意"},{"start":432.686,"end":433.727,"text":"10月1日發文各部會回覆意見"},{"start":462.614,"end":492.055,"text":"好 謝謝那就拜託我們各部會的首長大家一起來努力希望在年底之前我們盡快把它給核定好不好是的好 謝謝好 那接下來我要請教的是剛剛討論的是一開始綜合污水下水到10萬人然後再來是我們的國道交流道改善每個小時高達這個4000車次的問題要解決結果現在發現一個另外一個問題要拜託院長來協助就是我們綜合有一個綜合分局"},{"start":493.485,"end":518.127,"text":"他現在遇到的問題第一個是他的這個年限已老就是已經用了很長的一個時間而且過去有這個兩地駐地辦公的一個問題就是綜合分局他的駐地在一般的警察事務那另外在另外一個地方有這個偵查隊在執勤兩邊執勤造成了很多的一些行政資源上的浪費跟辦公處所一個浪費"},{"start":522.791,"end":542.207,"text":"中和因為我們有一些企業他在做一些都市計畫改變了以後其實他有捐贈一筆這個用地給我們的中和分局所以用地問題解決了可是營造的費用將未來會蓋地上7層地下4層的建築物營造費用有9億"},{"start":543.955,"end":564.748,"text":"這個部分其實新北市政府地方在籌措資源上有相當的困難所以是不是這邊請院長針對我們綜合分局他是要服務40萬人民的一個這個警察分局他的這個新建金費用地有了可是新建金費不足的問題是不是可以拜託院長來幫忙"},{"start":566.271,"end":566.791,"text":"市政府先用技術服務費768萬"},{"start":586.468,"end":587.289,"text":"新北市政府"},{"start":604.459,"end":605.08,"text":"針對現在的警察局"},{"start":628.223,"end":628.243,"text":"會來協助嗎"},{"start":642.146,"end":659.845,"text":"那是我們警察同仁所需要的聽測所以這邊我也希望院長跟部長其實各地全台灣各縣市都有這些公有聽測老舊的問題尤其警消的聽測老舊所以是不是說過去我知道說內政部很辛苦"},{"start":660.345,"end":684.922,"text":"都會有請各縣市來盤點有需要維修的部分做些維修的經費可是我這邊也比較大膽的希望院長跟部長可以主動來去盤點去追蹤去編列經費針對全台灣這個錦囂廳舍老舊的部分主動編列經費主動來修繕或是甚至有些真的是有些耐震的問題也必須如果要拆除的"},{"start":685.242,"end":685.262,"text":"應該編列經費"},{"start":710.772,"end":720.879,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝院長接下來我要問的問題就比較尖銳一點我要請教的就是說大家都知道最近這個電費又要漲了其實"},{"start":727.424,"end":754.227,"text":"國民黨黨團的立場一向都很直接就是希望電價要動漲不管是這個企業或者是民間的尤其是民間的一定要動漲可是我們看到從民進黨執政這幾年來尤其蔡英文政府跟賴清德政府普遍這個調漲這個電費已經高達40%我們現在所知道的台電現在是這個負毛利率這個"},{"start":755.908,"end":779.485,"text":"負債比高達90%現在累積虧損高達4000多億那不高函過去政府已經補貼他的3000億所以這邊我要請教院長就是說我這邊拿到一份資料這個資料是應該是國發會做的吧這個112年到122年間10年的這個電力規劃情形"},{"start":783.13,"end":804.155,"text":"這10年電力規劃情形不看不知道一看真的是要嚇一跳我們來看一下這個電力規劃情形從112年民進黨政府決定這個核能核二除役然後把一些這個燃煤也除以後結果他未來做的是什麼"},{"start":806.159,"end":831.626,"text":"我們來看一下先從這個表圖的上面來看2023年2024年2025年民進黨政府的決議就是要把核能給除役然後把一些燃煤燃煤跟燃氣的把它救市的把它除役可是民進黨政府沒有跟人民講的是在100在112年的時候2023年的時候因為當時政府就只發揮只做"},{"start":832.945,"end":860.052,"text":"綠電所以當時在113年的時候全臺灣可以看到這個最下面這個夜間的尖峰的這個被轉容量只到8.1所以要跟院長跟部長講的是你沒有跟人民講的是在民進黨的能源政策底下出入的能源政策底下未來臺灣就是第一個用的是新建的燃氣白天"},{"start":861.172,"end":876.567,"text":"的時侯是要用綠能用高額的電費來支付電費所以這邊要先請教部長的部分還有院長的部分你們可以看到112年的時候以這個圖表來看"},{"start":878.669,"end":907.956,"text":"新增的就是太陽能光電所以造成113年的缺電然後我們113年的時候大量的開啟新的這個燃氣場以及太陽能光電所以第一個我要請教這個院長跟部長的我們可以看到這張表綠色的就是燃氣藍色的就是光電那光電這邊有個特別的內容就是"},{"start":909.588,"end":936.657,"text":"沒有前面沒有任何的地點意思就是民營電廠所以要跟院長跟部長請教第一個點就是我相信民進黨政府沒有跟人民講的是說白天未來台灣的能源戰就是白天用人民的血汗錢發電就是用高額的綠能來發電晚上因為綠能沒有辦法發電所以晚上就是用廢發電就是不夠的電力用燃煤來補"},{"start":938.654,"end":966.837,"text":"請教院長跟部長這就是民進黨未來的能源政策嗎報告委員我想這個用燃氣來取代燃煤這是一個世界的方向那麼在這個還沒有說這個2050年要進行減碳的時候那麼是在發電的成本來看那麼燃煤跟燃氣是比較低的但是因為有了2050年要減碳的這個目標"},{"start":968.353,"end":969.074,"text":"部長我先請教一個問題我們看到下一頁"},{"start":987.892,"end":1016.948,"text":"我要請先請教這個部長的問題就是我們可以看到這張太陽能光電的表從民工104年當時台電跟民營電廠其實當時的發電量是差不多的可是我們可以看到從110年111年不管是民營電廠的發電量大幅的上增而且我剛剛特別跟你報告通通都是民營電廠為什麼台電不自己做光電通通要把"},{"start":1019.909,"end":1042.345,"text":"這些光電把他交給民營電廠去做所以人民只有擔心的是是不是都交給這些綠油油的企業來做為什麼台電自己不做綠電交給民營電廠的話是希望能夠透過競爭民間的這個競爭讓我們的這個電的成本可以更低"},{"start":1043.688,"end":1063.589,"text":"這是交給民營電廠的成本會更低我們看到下一張表這邊這個是台電公佈的資料台電的自發電力的電費跟外購電力大家可以看到一個明顯不相當的金額如果我們是台電自發的電力風力發電是4.61"},{"start":1067.045,"end":1086.391,"text":"外購電力就是民營電廠的購電力是6.59增加了40%意思就是人民會認為這個表這麼清楚的展現出來要給民營企業就是要給他40%的利潤太陽能發電自力發電3.75給外購電力要4.85漲幅30%那我們來看燃氣現在民間沒有什麼企業會做燃氣的為什麼"},{"start":1096.414,"end":1112.183,"text":"因為外購電力3.62可是台電自發2.96漲幅只有22%我想請問院長跟部長的這樣子大家不會趨之若鶩認為政府就是要保護綠電給它固定的利潤而且要保證採購的量嗎"},{"start":1115.18,"end":1138.419,"text":"律電的部分還是一樣因為我們要快速的讓這個市場上要得到這麼多的律電如果說光是台電自己下去做可能會速度很慢所以我們需要民間的這個所以部長你講的沒錯因為當時過去台灣就已經自己台電就有做律電那台電從現在我們剛剛看到最前面那張表"},{"start":1139.448,"end":1161.108,"text":"在112年到112年間喔臺電經濟部是完全放棄自己做綠電完全不做全部交給民營電廠而且民營電廠就是保證用高價收購保證收購的一個態度我私下還得知你們都請這個調度單位一定要請這個調度單位一定要用綠電這樣子去做"},{"start":1165.464,"end":1180.462,"text":"所以我常常才會跟部長跟院長講政府沒有說的秘密就是白天用綠電用人民的血汗錢發電晚上用廢發電就是空污的問題無法解決我覺得部長院長你沒有好好解釋我沒有辦法"},{"start":1182.103,"end":1203.677,"text":"政府沒有什麼秘密沒有說而是用公開的這個圖表來告訴國人我們在2024、25、26是我們舊電廠廚藝的高峰期那為了這個廚藝的高峰期我們必須比較快速有效率的能補充這些電廠那除了台電自己做的之外你講過我們需要效率所以用民營電廠來補充"},{"start":1204.938,"end":1207.02,"text":"台電有沒有考慮要自己做綠電台電自己設綠電這個是方向"},{"start":1224.369,"end":1225.49,"text":"我現在從112年到112年間10年都沒有方向"},{"start":1237.637,"end":1237.677,"text":"除能設備"},{"start":1268.03,"end":1285.302,"text":"現在民間很多企業都知道使用儲能設備去儲存當不是尖峰的時候去儲存一些比較低價的電可是我們看到政府12年113年114年都有使用儲能設備為什麼從114年以後就不再使用儲能設備了"},{"start":1286.889,"end":1312.844,"text":"用除能設備才能去除在不是尖峰的時間去除一些比較便宜的電這樣不會讓人民認為說你只有在發展光電而且發展光電是不穩定的能源所以你還是每年要設很多的燃氣電廠造成台灣的空汙問題造成全台灣光電板設一大堆燃氣廠設一大堆而且全民每年都可能要漲兩次電價"},{"start":1314.721,"end":1317.222,"text":"我們沒有錯我們同意您的說法除能設備事實上現在我們也都讓業者繼續在發展"},{"start":1342.329,"end":1357.9,"text":"我請問一下部長那為什麼114年以後就不發展除能設備了政府就不發展除能設備就不建置除能設備除能設備你要有那個他有使用的地方不過我們認為是這樣子因為業者他到在市場評估的時候"},{"start":1368.526,"end":1383.395,"text":"政府願意發展每年發展固定的大量的太陽能光電可是卻不知道業者卻不知道要發展多少的儲能設備這樣子我相信人民是不能接受的所以我們建議業者要自己"},{"start":1384.144,"end":1385.045,"text":"跟委員報告前一兩年"},{"start":1401.18,"end":1419.935,"text":"竹能設備民間投資的意願相當高所以它有一個電力交易平台讓民間來申請結果因為這個太多的量所以它有在前年5月稍微暫停因為7月已經重新啟動我認為這個表未來是有可能增加的今天7月重新啟動"},{"start":1420.856,"end":1422.877,"text":"臺灣人民是應該用便宜的電好的電而不是白天用綠能用人民的血汗錢納電費"},{"start":1450.438,"end":1451.719,"text":"出能設備他一定有市場"},{"start":1464.79,"end":1467.191,"text":"沒有這回事我們不可能這個這個電價的這個漲是由這個電價委員會在"},{"start":1491.325,"end":1493.007,"text":"好 接下來還要再請問部長跟院長一個問題針對我們臺灣未來即將面臨的太陽能板"},{"start":1500.559,"end":1521.733,"text":"這麼多大量的太陽能板其實現在經濟部其實針對太陽能板未來的回收的這個整個基金是嚴重收取不足的那當我們有去跟這個部會去討論的時候他回答我們我問他說有一些廢棄的太陽能廠怎麼處理他說廢棄的時候很多的公司都倒閉"},{"start":1522.845,"end":1541.923,"text":"倒閉的話查無此人可是這些的太陽能板還是屬於那些倒閉的公司產生了太陽能板這個流浪漢太陽能板孤兒這些東西這些問題未來在台灣發展綠能的過程上是一個非常嚴重的問題所以請院長跟部長針對這個問題一定要"},{"start":1552.701,"end":1566.946,"text":"經濟部所屬的工業技術研究院已經有將太陽能板回收的技術現在也要成立這樣的公司所以您所擔心的這件事情我們相信是不會造成困擾"},{"start":1568.444,"end":1583.359,"text":"好那院長跟部長有提示未來這個問題會慢慢的下降我們期待不然台灣會成為這個太陽能板的孤兒的廢棄島那接下來本席要跟部長跟院長請教的就是說剛剛我們講台灣發展這麼多的這個"},{"start":1588.353,"end":1600.027,"text":"藍氣廠燃氣廠所造成的PM2.5當時我在委員會質詢的時候我特別有講我希望說臺灣很多東西不能獨樹一格尤其對臺灣的空汙指標要來調整"},{"start":1604.211,"end":1624.868,"text":"台灣大家都知道現在新聞報導有特別指出這個肺癌的造成主要的原因第一個最嚴重的新聞報導有指出就是PN2.5就是空汙的影響所以我們看到這一張的這個這個slide的表格裡面有寫現行的PN2.5的指標它是寫15"},{"start":1626.411,"end":1651.688,"text":"那未來修正後會變成12我看到這個資料的時候本來非常開心想說哇政府終於聽到我們的聲音了可是第一個我要跟這個院長報告的是他跟國際的標準美國的9還是有相當的差別以及這個總表當時在規劃的時候其實就有一些浮爆的情況因為像台灣有一些的污染物是在台灣不會出現的"},{"start":1652.913,"end":1665.139,"text":"在台灣會是0的所以這個數字台灣的空汙會造成永遠都不會有空汙因為這個數這個計算公式會造成很多的數字去虛胖所以這個部分我也要請到"},{"start":1666.833,"end":1690.66,"text":"翻到下一頁在114年第一會期的施政報告部長你的施政報告裡面針對人民最重視的空污問題在15條裡面你沒有講說要加強防治與監控改善空氣品質跟環境凝視我在看這個內容的時候第一個我懷疑這內容是照抄"},{"start":1691.833,"end":1710.114,"text":"後來我仔細來看不是照抄,內容只是我們的數據有稍微改了一下可是讓我覺得非常痛心的是說前面左邊這個資料裡面寫說截至112年12月20日子PO2.5的平均濃度是13.8"},{"start":1712.349,"end":1728.408,"text":"可是我們看到最新的施政報告裡面寫113年6月指這個PM2.5的濃度上升到15.1就代表臺灣剛剛可以連到剛剛前面跟大家講的創意的能源政策造成臺灣一直把這個"},{"start":1730.285,"end":1730.645,"text":"﹚張智倫﹚張智倫﹚張智倫﹚"},{"start":1755.1,"end":1778.248,"text":"跟地方政府合作的這個 空汙的檢測點完全只有一萬點 完全沒有增加以及鼓勵癱瘓 孤乳這些數字在113年6月底跟去年也完全沒有變動是不是代表政府對人民的空汙對人民第一名產生這個肺癌 肺腺癌的問題政府是不是忽視了 請可不可以院長幫我們解釋一下"},{"start":1778.928,"end":1780.07,"text":"等下等下你這樣解釋不清楚他說平均阿"},{"start":1794.951,"end":1811.537,"text":"明天等會辦到6月有差別?一個是到6月一個是一整年快要到12月20號所以是一整年所以一個除以6個除以12嗎?不一樣喔因為我們台灣四季的空屋是不一樣的高低不一樣的你意思是說下半年度空屋會減少所以這個數字會回到正常?"},{"start":1811.857,"end":1812.697,"text":"所以你的目標到年底會是10沒有"},{"start":1850.781,"end":1850.802,"text":"謝謝張智"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"17:32:37 - 18:03:29","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155068","gazette":{"lineno":622,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（17時32分）謝謝院長，各位委員、各位官員，大家午安，我們是不是有請卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：卓院長好，辛苦了這幾天，今天的質詢一整天非常的辛苦。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["張委員智倫：本席也在這邊對最近颱風所有我們第一線的警消，還有所有救災的人員，致上最深的敬意，大家辛苦了、院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，應該的。"],["張委員智倫：接下來要請教院長的部分，就是我本身來自新北市中和選區，也是我們韓院長的家鄉，所以當我一開始上任以來，我對很多地方大型建設非常的關心，也認為我們中和地方大型建設的時程一般來講都拖得比較長，所以我一直在關心，希望很多的時程可以儘速、加速，有一些不必要的文書來往可以減少。","第一個要跟院長請教，在上個會期陳建仁院長的時候，當時我就有跟他報告一件事情，就是中和的污水下水道的接管。跟卓院長說明一下，從民國93年就已經開始做中和污水下水道的接管，現在已經將近30年了，中和還有大概10萬的人、南勢角的人沒有接管，所以在111年3月的時候，由國土署核定12.87億的中和污水下水道接管經費，拖了兩年，直到今年113年8月7號，目前來講，行政院已經通過細部設計，現在中和的污水道接管都不是由中央來處理，都是由新北市政府來做發包跟執行，不過細部計畫還是要由行政院核准。這邊我要跟院長請託的是，現在總經費大概是12.87億，第一階段只核准大概三億多，總共可以讓三萬多戶接管，也就是10萬人；當時我在拜託陳院長的時候，我還記得是在113年4月份，那時候是可行性評估報告，而可行性評估報告通過了，未來也希望污水下水道部分可以拜託院長協助，是不是中央跟地方在一些細部計畫檢討的部分可以加速？","我剛剛有跟院長報告，這要9年的時間，希望院長可以支持，可以讓9年的時間儘量縮短，請問院長這樣可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。污水下水道象徵一個都市翻身的機會，讓它更乾淨，是不是內政部將來也要跟地方政府再多做協調，預算這方面我們會透過程序來編列，執行的工作還是要拜託地方政府，至於過程怎麼樣，請部長來說明。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想你都知道，現在國土署的分署正在審查當中，如果分署審查完了以後需要發包，我們會按照原來的採購發包程序辦理。然後您有提到預算是不是不夠？我想不會，因為一個整體計畫通過之後，就分一、二、三、四期慢慢往前推進，我們會跟新北市政府一起來努力。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長跟院長。","第二個，我要請託院長的就是中和未來比較大型的交通問題。中和有一個國道3號，現在是中和唯一可以往外到別縣市的一個非常重要的高速公路。在今年，也是當時的交通部長和我們一起爭取的，其實過去中和交流道在尖峰時期，每一個小時的車流量高達4,000部，所以過去都會一直塞車，我們在上個會期的時候一起努力，現在很多鄉親從南部往北、往中和的方向，因為當時已經爭取了3,000萬的經費，把路肩取消、重新鋪設，所以現在很多中和鄉親從中南部回來會發現出口變雙車道，增加一倍的車流量，所以已經不是這麼塞車了。","可是過去一直以來還有一個問題，不管是北上跟南下都會遇到的問題，有些車子要下中和交流道往中和的方向走，另外有一些車子要往板橋、往64的方向跑，結果會造成道路交織的問題，所以高公局規劃了14.9億，希望增設匝道，把匝道的標示往前拉，未來讓民眾可以提早做分流，希望未來可以慢慢、一步一步降低塞車的問題。我再重新報告一次當時的計畫，當時在陳建仁院長的時候是可行性評估報告通過，因為這整個計畫要7年，現在還在113年，這個計畫已經從交通局送到交通部，交通部送到國發會，國發會現在正在審查當中，未來還要請行政院核准。現在這邊有一個表，在項次1部分，之前說113年的年底就可以核准，當然還有抓了幾個月的緩衝期，現在已經送到國發會了，我希望行政院可以協助，看是不是在113年的年底就順利核准，因為整個工期高達7年的時間，剛剛也跟部長和院長報告過了，交通塞車的問題一定要快速解決，是不是可以拜託院長，如果可行性評估報告……之前陳院長大概1個月的時間就OK了，那院長是不是也可以從善如流，儘快核定？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長先說明一下目前的程序到現在的審議。"],["張委員智倫：好，請部長說明。"],["陳部長世凱：目前高公局會接續辦理綜規的部分，至於在國發會的部分，應該國發會的速度也會很快，現在交通方面的建設，我們都很清楚，大家、民眾都非常的急，尤其是中和塞車的問題，所有的人開車經過那裡都會感受得到，所以這個部分當然我們會加速進行。"],["張委員智倫：好，那國發會呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，我們是9月27號收到函，10月1號已發文各部會，我們正在等各部會回復意見。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝，就拜託各部會首長，大家一起努力，希望在年底之前儘快核定，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。接下來我要請教的是，剛剛一開始討論的是中和污水下道的10萬人；再來是我們國道交流道的改善，每個小時高達4,000車次的問題要解決；現在發現另外一個問題要拜託院長來協助，就是我們中和有一個中和分局，現在遇到的問題是，第一個，它的年限已老，就是已經用了很長的時間，而且過去有兩地駐地辦公的問題，就是中和分局它的駐地是一般的警察事務；而在另外一個地方有偵查隊在執勤，兩邊執勤造成很多行政資源的浪費跟辦公處所的浪費，當然還有一個空間不足的問題，因為一些企業在做一些都市計畫改變以後，其實他們有捐贈一筆用地給我們中和分局，所以用地問題解決了，可是營造費用的部分，未來會蓋地上7層、地下4層的建築物，營造費用有9億，這個部分其實新北市政府、地方在籌措資源上有相當的困難，所以是不是請院長針對中和分局的部分，它是一個要服務40萬人民的警察分局，現在用地有了，可是興建經費不足的問題，是不是可以拜託院長來幫忙？"],["卓院長榮泰：請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：我來回應一下。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員都非常清楚也很努力，就是現在的中和分局因為它的耐震沒有達到拆除重建的標準，所以並不符合前瞻計畫裡面的拆除重建，但因為新北市政府已經先用技術服務費768萬來做所謂的技術服務，113年會啟動採購的程序，您所說的地下4層或地上7層，可能是現在新北市政府在進行技術服務時所完成的部分；我們現在就是先請新北市政府瞭解他們現在有沒有要跟戶政事務所一起共用，如果一起共用會比較複雜，但如果沒有一起共用，完全是我們消防署或是警政署使用的話，我們希望工程規劃設計完成之後，會按照分年所需要的經費，請新北市政府向中央來申請，因為中央有一個補助的部分，就是針對現在的警察局或者是其他的警察署所需要的部分，會按照它的輕重緩急程度逐年編列。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長的說明，所以部長的意思是會來協助嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是啊！協助當然是一定的，那是我們警察同仁所需要的廳舍。"],["張委員智倫：OK。所以我也希望院長跟部長知道，其實全臺各縣市都有公有廳舍老舊的問題，尤其是警消廳舍老舊的問題，過去我知道內政部很辛苦，都會請各縣市盤點有需要維修的部分，然後提供一些維修的經費，可是我這邊也比較大膽的希望院長跟部長可以主動去盤點、去追蹤、去編列經費，針對全臺灣警消廳舍老舊的部分，主動編列經費、主動來修繕，甚至有些真的是有耐震問題的，必須要拆除的，也是要編列經費。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，其實本來就有了，只是說它要滾動式調整，所以行政院都非常支持，在滾動式調整之後，如果知道它是老舊廳舍，就會按照老舊廳舍的需求，一年、一年都會一直補助下去，全臺灣都是這樣子，所有各縣市地方政府的警察局長都知道，他們也都在爭取，所以我們每一年都會有厚厚的一本來跟行政院爭取這個經費。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長、謝謝院長。","接下來我要問的問題就比較尖銳一點了，我要請教的是，大家都知道，最近電費又要漲了，其實國民黨黨團的立場一向都很直接，就是希望電價要凍漲，不管是企業或民間，尤其民間部分一定要凍漲。可是我們看到民進黨執政這幾年來，蔡英文政府跟賴清德政府已經普遍調漲電費高達40%。我們知道台電現在是負毛利率，負債比達90%，累積虧損高達四千多億，尚不包含過去政府已經補貼的3,000億。在這邊我要請教院長，我拿到一份資料，這資料應該是國發會做的，為112年到122年十年間的電力規劃情形。這十年電力規劃情形不看不知道，一看真的要嚇一跳，我們來看一下電力規劃情形。","112年民進黨政府決定核二及一些燃煤機組除役，至於未來要做什麼？我們來看一下，先從表圖的上面來看。2023年、2024年、2025年，民進黨政府的決議就是要把核能除役，然後把一些燃煤、燃氣的舊式機組也除役，可是民進黨政府沒有跟人民講的是，在112年（2023年）時，因為當時政府只做綠電，所以在113年時，全臺灣夜間尖峰的備轉容量只到8.1%！所以我要跟院長及部長講的是，你們沒有跟人民講，在民進黨的能源政策底下，未來臺灣第一個用的就是新建的燃氣，白天用的是綠能，要用高額的電費來支付。在這邊我要先請教部長及院長，以這個圖表來看，你們可以看到112年新增的就是太陽能光電，以致造成113年缺電。然後113年大量開啟新的燃氣廠以及太陽能光電，所以第一個我要請院長跟部長看這張表，綠色的就是燃氣，藍色的就是光電，光電這邊有個特別的內容，也就是前面沒有提到任何的地點，意思就是民營電廠。請教院長跟部長，第一，我相信民進黨政府沒有跟人民講的是：未來臺灣的能源政策，白天用人民的血汗錢發電，即用高額綠能發電；晚上因為綠能沒有辦法發電，所以晚上就是用肺發電，也就是不夠的電力用燃煤來補。請教院長跟部長，這就是民進黨未來的能源政策嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想用燃氣取代燃煤是世界的方向，在沒有提到2050年淨零減碳時，燃煤跟燃氣的發電成本是比較低的。但因為有了2050年減碳的目標，再加上歐盟要用綠電的規範，所以大部分做出口的產業就要使用綠電，綠電是為了讓臺灣的產業能做出口……"],["張委員智倫：部長，我先請教一個問題，我們看下一頁。我要請教部長的問題就是，我們可以看到這張太陽能光電表，在民國104年時，台電跟民營電廠的發電量是差不多的。可是我們看到從110年、111年開始，民營電廠的發電量大幅上升！我剛剛特別跟你報告，通通都是民營電廠在做，為什麼台電不自己做光電？把光電通通交給民營電廠去做？人民所擔心的是，是不是都交給「綠友友」企業來做？為什麼台電自己不做綠電？"],["郭部長智輝：交給民營電廠的話，是希望能夠透過競爭，透過民間的競爭，讓我們電的成本可以更低，這是交給民營電廠……"],["張委員智倫：好，交給民營電廠成本會更低，我們看到下一張表，這是台電公布的資料，台電自發電力跟外購電力的價格，大家可以看到明顯不相當的金額，如果是台電自發的電力，風力發電是4.61，外購電力，也就是從民營電廠的購電費是6.59，增加了40%，意思就是人民會認為，這個表非常清楚的展現出來，要給民營企業40%的利潤；太陽能發電的部分，自發電力是3.75，外購電力要4.85，漲幅30%；我們來看燃氣，現在民間沒有什麼企業要做燃氣，為什麼？因為外購電力3.62，但台電自發2.96，漲幅只有22%。我想請問院長跟部長，這樣大家不會趨之若鶩，認為政府就是要保護綠電，給它固定的利潤，而且要保證採購的量嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：綠電的部分還是一樣，因為我們要快速的讓市場上得到這麼多的綠電，如果光是台電自己下去做，可能會速度很慢，所以我們需要民間這部分的提供……"],["張委員智倫：部長，你講得沒錯，因為過去臺灣台電自己就有做綠電，我們從剛剛看到最前面那張表，112年到122年間，台電、經濟部是完全放棄自己做綠電，完全不做，全部交給民營電廠，而且對民營電廠就是用高價收購、保證收購的態度。我私下還得知，你們都請調度單位一定要用綠電，這樣子去做，所以我剛剛才會跟部長、院長講，政府沒有說的秘密就是白天用綠電、用人民的血汗錢發電，晚上用肺發電，空污的問題無法解決，我覺得部長、院長你們要好好解釋，我沒有辦法、聽不懂你們在解釋什麼。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，政府沒有什麼秘密沒有說，而是用公開的圖表來告訴國人，2024、2025、2026是我們舊電廠除役的高峰期，為了這個除役高峰期，我們必須比較快速、有效率地補充這些電廠，除了台電自己做的之外，你講過，我們需要效率，所以用民營電廠來補充，……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝、謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是除役高峰期所必須要做的。"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我想我必須要跟委員說明一下……"],["張委員智倫：我先簡單問一下，因為時間的關係……"],["郭部長智輝：光電能夠發電……"],["張委員智倫：我問一下部長跟院長，台電有沒有考慮要自己做綠電？"],["郭部長智輝：台電自己設綠電？"],["張委員智倫：對。"],["郭部長智輝：這個是方向，我們當然是可以……"],["張委員智倫：我現在看到從112年到122年間，10年都沒有方向！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是這樣，如果台電自己去做的話，我們透過採購法各方面的規範，可能速度會比較慢，如果透過民間的話，速度很快。"],["張委員智倫：部長，我再跟你講，很多你們用來做綠電跟光電的地都是國產署的地，你們就是把它發包給民間業者，其實政府就可以自己來做了。","接下來我要請問，從剛剛112年到122年間這張圖表，我們可以看到底下還有一個小玄機，有沒有看到粉紅色的那個部分，叫做儲能設備，現在民間很多企業都知道使用儲能設備，在不是尖峰的時候去儲存一些比較低價的電。可是我們看到政府112年、113年、114年都有使用儲能設備，為什麼從114年以後就不再使用儲能設備了？用儲能設備才能在不是尖峰的時間去儲存一些比較便宜的電，這樣不會讓人民認為你只有發展光電，而且發展光電是不穩定的能源，所以你還是每年要設很多燃氣電廠，造成臺灣的空污問題，造成全臺灣光電板設一大堆、燃氣廠設一大堆，而且全民每年都可能要漲二次電價！"],["郭部長智輝：委員報告，我想儲能設備是這個樣子，您剛剛所說的是正確的，就是光電事實上需要儲能設備在晚上時提供……"],["張委員智倫：不僅是光電，一般便宜的時候，當備轉容量不夠高的時候，其實燃煤、燃氣都可以拿來儲能啊！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有錯，我們同意您的說法，儲能設備事實上現在我們也都讓業者繼續在發展，未來呢……"],["張委員智倫：我請問一下部長，為什麼114年以後就不發展儲能設備了？政府就不發展儲能設備、就不建置儲能設備？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，儲能設備要有使用的地方，不過我們認為是這樣子，業者在做市場評估的時候並沒有很精準的知道這個市場到底需要多少儲能設備，所以他們會比較快，跑得比較快……"],["張委員智倫：我跟部長講，政府願意每年發展固定的、大量的太陽能光電，可是業者卻不知道要發展多少儲能設備，我相信這樣人民是不能接受的！"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們建議業者要自己……因為你要投入一個市場，但如果沒有去做市場評估就貿然進來的話，我想我們政府不需要那麼多的儲能……"],["張委員智倫：所以部長，這是錯誤的能源政策還是這些業者不懂得如何瞭解臺灣未來電力的走向？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，前一、二年，對於儲能設備，民間投資的意願相當高，所以有一個電力交易平台讓民間來申請，結果因為太多的量，所以在前年5月稍微暫停……"],["張委員智倫：院長，量上面都有啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：今年7月已經重新啟動，我認為這個表未來是有可能增加的，今年7月重新啟動了……"],["張委員智倫：所以您的意思是說，儲能設備您同意重新啟動，在115年的時候台電要增加儲能設備嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個電力交易平台，關於儲能的部分，在今年7月已經導入新的需求、新的機制，重新啟動了，我們也歡迎民間共同來參與。"],["張委員智倫：好，這個未來我會繼續追蹤，我希望臺灣人民應該用便宜的電、用好的電，而不是白天用綠能、用人民的血汗錢繳納電費……"],["卓院長榮泰：它是把產生的電留下來供作沒有電力的時候來使用、沒有發電的時候來使用，這個是正確的邏輯。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會在未來，因為AI電力大量增加，所以儲能設備一定有市場，不會像您剛剛所說的，它可能……"],["張委員智倫：沒有，這個是國發會提供的10年變化估計表，所以拜託，這會讓人民覺得全臺灣就是綠電綠友友，台電跌倒、綠電賺飽、全民漲電價，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有這回事，我們不可能，電價的調漲是由電價委員會在……"],["張委員智倫：接下來我還要再請問部長跟院長一個問題，針對臺灣未來即將面臨的太陽能板，這麼大量的太陽能板，現在經濟部針對太陽能板未來回收的整個基金是嚴重收取不足的，當我們去跟部會討論的時候，我問到有些廢棄的太陽能廠怎麼處理，他們說廢棄的很多公司都倒閉了，倒閉的話就查無此人，可是這些太陽能板還是屬於那些倒閉的公司，產生了太陽能板流浪漢、太陽能板孤兒，這些東西、這些問題未來在臺灣發展綠能的過程上是個非常嚴重問題，是不是請院長跟部長針對這問題一定要來解釋，一定要讓這個費用給收齊？"],["郭部長智輝：這個問題我跟委員報告，我們經濟部所屬的工業技術研究院已經有將太陽能板回收的技術，現在也要成立這樣的公司，所以您所擔心的這件事情，我們相信是不會造成困擾的。"],["張委員智倫：好，院長跟部長有提示，未來這個問題會慢慢下降，我們期待，不然臺灣會成為太陽能板孤兒的廢棄島。","接下來本席要跟部長、院長請教的就是，剛剛我們講臺灣發展這麼多的燃氣廠，燃氣廠所造成的PM2.5，當時我在委員會質詢的時候特別有提到，我希望臺灣很多東西不能獨樹一格，尤其對臺灣的空污指標要來調整。臺灣大家都知道現在造成肺癌的主要原因，第一個最嚴重的，新聞報導有指出的就是PM2.5，就是空污的影響，所以我們看到這張slide的表格有寫，現行PM2.5的指標是寫15，未來修正後會變成12，我看到這個資料的時候本來非常開心，想說政府終於聽到我們的聲音了，可是第一個我要跟院長報告的是，它跟國際的標準，跟美國的9還是有相當的差別，以及這個總表當時在規劃的時候其實就有一些浮報的情況，因為有一些污染物是在臺灣不會出現的，在臺灣會是0的，所以這樣的數字會造成臺灣似乎永遠都不會有空污，因為這個計算公式會造成很多的數字是虛胖的。","關於這部分，在114年第1會期環境部的施政報告，部長，你的施政報告當中第十五點，針對人民最重視的空污問題有講到要「加強防制與監控，改善空氣品質及環境寧適」。我在看這個內容的時候，第一個，我懷疑這個內容是照抄，後來我仔細來看不是照抄，只是內容的數據有稍微改了一下。可是讓我覺得非常痛心的是，左邊的資料中寫「截至112年12月20日止，PM2.5的平均濃度是13.8」，可是我們看到最新的施政報告裡面寫「截至113年6月止，PM2.5的濃度上升到15.1」就代表可以連結到剛剛前面跟大家講的，錯誤的能源政策造成臺灣一直把核能給取消，一直大量的使用天然氣發電，臺灣的PM2.5其實是上升的，而且就像我剛剛報告過的，白天的時候我們用綠能，晚上火力全開，所以這個濃度上升，本席非常不能接受。而且我們再接下來看，到113年6月止，跟地方政府合作完成的空污的檢測點只有1萬點，跟112年12月施政報告的數字相比完全沒有增加；以及鼓勵汰換鍋爐這些數字，在113年6月底跟去年相比也完全沒有變動，是不是代表政府對人民受到的空污，對人民第一名產生肺癌、肺腺癌的問題，政府是不是忽視了，能不能請院長幫我們解釋一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實你講的兩個數據，一個是一整年，一個是只有六個月，所以15跟13這兩個數字是沒辦法比的，如果我們目前算，大概是差不多。目前我們把空污是訂成12……"],["張委員智倫：等一下、等一下，你這樣解釋不正確，它說的是平均，平均怎麼會半年和一年有差別？"],["彭部長啓明：一個是到6月，一個是一整年，計算到12月20號，所以是一整年……"],["張委員智倫：所以一個除以6，一個除以12嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不一樣喔，因為我們臺灣四季的空污指數高低是不一樣的，通常……"],["張委員智倫：你的意思是說下半年度空污會減少，所以這個數字會回到正常？"],["彭部長啓明：對，當然啦，因為有颱風季，還有下雨的情況都會不一樣，所以如果取上半年平均或一整年平均數字是不一樣的，我們通常會選一年的平均，所以前面那個13.8是比較符合真實的狀況。也報告委員，我們是訂成12，目前我們是亞洲最嚴的國家，那我們四年會檢討一次，當然我心裡面是希望10或5以下，但是這個的確要靠我們的淨零一起來努力。"],["張委員智倫：所以你的目標到年底會是10？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，四年會檢討一次，現在是12，我們希望未來可以往下，但是這個還需要一些科學工具。"],["張委員智倫：好，那就拜託院長跟部長，一起來解決空污問題。謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好。謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關首長的備詢。","報告院會，本會期排定政黨質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，非常感謝卓院長、鄭副院長以及各部會首長列席答詢。我們10月8號（星期二）上午9點繼續開會，進行立法委員個人質詢內政組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（18時3分）","� https://rwnews.tw/article.php?news=15905","� https://www.chinatimes.com/newspapers/20240901000412-260110?chdtv","� 2024/06/19財委會通過臨時提案，請財政部於立法院這個會期開議前提出財劃法政院版草案。2024/07/02行政院院長卓榮泰表示，現行財劃法經過多年共識執行，足以給予地方幫助、「現行版本就是我們的想法」。(中時新聞網 卓揆：財劃法不提行政院版本 現行版本就是共識https://www.chinatimes.com/newspapers/20240703000522-260110?chdtv) 2024/09/19財政部來函，因地方意見分歧，還要凝聚共識，無法於立法院本會期開議前提出財劃法修正草案。","� https：//www.cna.com.tw/news/aipl/202309170015.aspx","�  2022年全國超徵稅收4,500億元，創史上新高；扣除應分配給地方政府的稅收700億元，中央政府可運用金額為3,800億元，以疫後特別預算進行分配：1,800億元還稅於民，全民普發現金6,000元；1,000億元投入「加強韌性經濟方案」的七項措施，強化傳統產業、農漁業、觀光業等；最後1,000億元則是撥補給台電500億元、勞保基金300億元，以及健保基金200億元。2023年稅收超徵3,860億元，扣除地方部份及還債後剩1,500億元，再補貼台電1,000億元後，剩下500億元進入國庫統收統支，由整個主計制度決定用途。(https：//money.udn.com/money/story/5613/7859081)","� 2019年，監察院曾公布一份調查報告指出，截至2018年10月，全國有1,569棟校舍待補強、401棟校舍待拆除，合計有14萬餘學童，於安全堪慮的校舍環境中上課，認為教育部應強化督導各地方政府，儘速完成國中小校舍耐震能力評估及改善。","� 按內政部公布的「建築物耐震設計規範及解說」，把建築物耐震標準分成四級。","� Is值為耐震指標，可分為三級，數值低於80表示耐震能力不足，80至100有耐震疑慮，100以上則是尚無耐震疑慮。","� 台中市最高，卻也只分得7億元；最低的宜蘭縣獲得900萬餘元。其他縣市如台北市約5億元、新北市3億餘元、桃園市1.5億元。","� (原音)我們國防預算，是依照國家的需要，就保衛國家安全，就這個需要的方面，來編列相關預算，絕不是要依附或滿足哪個數字，這個對我們來講，毫無意義。�(https://www.rti.org.tw/news/view/id/2222338)","� 全世界國防支出佔比GDP最高的國家是「沙烏地阿拉伯」的6.6％，以色列是第2高，佔比5.2％，美國則是佔3.5%左右，而且北約成員國當中有一半以上的佔比都不到2％。","� 其在川普總統任內最後2年擔任國安顧問，若川普當選可能回鍋入閣。","� 據了解，國軍採購雷神公司多項武器裝備，包括：長程預警雷達、愛國者一型與二型飛彈、刺針飛彈，以及潛艦國造原型艦海鯤號的聲納系統等。","� 該智庫將軍售項目分為傳統武器、不對稱作戰武器、彈藥等3個類型，其中傳統武器有108.7億美元，不對稱作戰武器有70億美元，彈藥則有26.6億美元。","� 意謂新一輪貿易戰已然啟動：美國貿易代表署(USTR)宣布，涉及180億美元的中國大陸進口產品「301關稅」於9月27日生效，包括對電動車徵收100％關稅，對太陽能電池徵收50％關稅，對鋼鐵、鋁、電動車電池及關鍵礦物徵收25％關稅。(https://www.ctee.com.tw/news/20240922700014-430105)","� https://www.ctee.com.tw/news/20240912700056-439901","� https://helloyishi.com.tw/health/news/what-is-the-sandwich-generation/","� https://www.pcalife.com.tw/zh/news/20240906-02/","� 截至2023年10月底全台已設置38處心理衛生中心，2025年預計全台完成71處心理衛生中心設置。（https：//udn.com/news/story/7266/7495565）","� 衛福部統計20多年來，各年齡層自殺死亡率65歲以上為最高，前三順位原因包括「憂鬱傾向、罹患憂鬱症或其他精神疾病」、「慢性化疾病問題」和「家庭成員問題」等。","� 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其實如果部長有瞭解 院長應該也可以掌握一下桃園最近這個講台電說潰線跳脫停電 真的不知道講了多少次那我們針對這一次 你看 颱風10月3號才到 它10月2號就大規模停電"},{"start":174.58,"end":192.602,"text":"所以這對我們地方桃園的影響真的非常大而且我們看一下我們網路的統計我們針對網路統計針對我們今年十大跳電熱議的城市你看第一名桃園市他在網路的聲量"},{"start":193.503,"end":221.815,"text":"根據網路溫度計看這個網路溫度計他的統計高達21萬5千多你看他比第二名的新北臺北多了18萬多而且桃園市第一名這個聲量比後面第二名加到第10名後面9個縣市加起來熱議的程度都還多很多也就表示剛好也證明了桃園這個跳電的頻率真的高於"},{"start":222.355,"end":249.371,"text":"很多其他的縣市所以我不知道說院長跟部長有沒有注意到這個問題報告委員這個問題我們一直在關注主要是因為這個桃園的這個搬進桃園住的人比較多那第二個因為有一些設施是比較老舊所以因為這兩個元素造成他比較容易跳電那我們現在對這個電網韌性"},{"start":251.485,"end":251.825,"text":"主席"},{"start":268.559,"end":282.206,"text":"對於這個容易跳電的這個紅區我們都有規劃出來我跟這個委員報告我們一定會在明年的年中之前把桃園所有容易跳電的地方全部整治"},{"start":283.53,"end":303.721,"text":"其實剛剛部長也有提到在2022年也確實我們正式公告要投資5600多億針對強韌電網的計畫其實我們現在想了解就是說其實已經做了兩年多當然剛剛部長也有講期許明年能夠完成我們也樂觀其成"},{"start":304.381,"end":319.456,"text":"所以這一部分真的也想請部長那當然院長也幫我們多重視一下這個停電的問題對民眾真的造成非常非常大的困擾而且我要替我們桃園市民真的來報區你看我們桃園有五大電廠觀音大壇電廠"},{"start":321.898,"end":343.345,"text":"沐竹長生電廠大園氣電工生電廠還有我們龜山華亞氣電工生燃煤電廠還有龜山國光電廠我們有5個電廠而且在觀音大潭電廠還是我們全台灣最大的一個天然氣電廠可是每次停電都是觀音都是新屋都是沿海而且"},{"start":344.005,"end":370.685,"text":"平率最高而且每次都是先停那我不知道說對我們這個周邊設這麼多電廠在這邊我們常常講我們這邊很多的民眾又要忍受這麼多的污染忍受對市民健康那麼大的影響而且每次跳電停電次數又多每次都首當其衝所以希望這部分我們院長部長真的要幫我們重視一下"},{"start":371.345,"end":397.572,"text":"好的謝謝委員陶園市是一個新興的人口在短時間內快速成長的一個都市所以他的整個剛剛部長所說的用電的負荷是明顯超過他現在老舊電網所能夠負荷的所以我們非常重視我還記得在6月份的時候我就已經到過陶園去看一個現場在修護這個電線的台電工人給他們加油鼓勵也同時對整個陶園區我們希望能夠"},{"start":398.132,"end":401.515,"text":"我希望部長院長有空可以到我們沿海去視察一下其實我們沿海真的是非常支持民進黨的"},{"start":422.995,"end":425.157,"text":"水電民生的維持人民的需求我們一律一視同仁好 謝謝"},{"start":450.762,"end":464.68,"text":"好那再請一下我們交通部部長那我這邊先請問一下我們院長那我們院長跟交通部部長那經濟部部長"},{"start":466.414,"end":492.141,"text":"因為後面等一下還有你的議題那針對這一部分也跟院長報告院長跟我們陳士凱部長其實我們知道我們大家都是地方議員出身那當然我們地方議員出身其實我們都是最基層的所以基層民間的聲音我們都了解那今天提這個地方的交通建設需求也希望我們院長跟部長能夠多重視一下"},{"start":493.237,"end":510.635,"text":"那當然首先我們先感謝交通部這一部分也要謝謝我們交通部針對我們桃園市陽梅深深路延伸到中山南路的審改計畫這一筆4.6億也感謝交通部的幫忙讓這筆經費能夠保留下來匡列在114年到118年那這部分也要感謝我們"},{"start":516.994,"end":531.615,"text":"交通部的支持跟協助那我想請問一下我們陳部長請問針對國道1號楊梅頭份段的拓寬工程這個工程不知道部長了解嗎基礎上應該了解"},{"start":532.639,"end":554.847,"text":"那因為這部分我在3月份的時候也跟當時的交通部長有跟當時的部長來拜託因為國道1號楊梅道頭份拓寬工程當時交通部說沒有設閘道沒有設交流道所以我們地方造成非常大的恐慌所以後來也跟交通部來溝通"},{"start":556.768,"end":580.736,"text":"也請我們交通局針對北出南入的閘道的部分希望一併來施作那這部分大概跟部長說明一下那針對北出閘道的部分他在孝前路因為他的交通流量服務的水平到達西級也就是說他目前還可以容納現有的交通量但是"},{"start":581.616,"end":605.861,"text":"目前比較有問題的部分就是南入的閘道在南入的閘道的部分校前路南入閘道的部分當初有評估就是說他南出南入閘道從校前路要進去高速公路因為他目前欠缺閘道的用地而且跟現在的陽梅交流道車流動線會引發"},{"start":607.741,"end":608.481,"text":"因為我們當初﹖"},{"start":633.154,"end":655.427,"text":"有設一個楊梅的休息站那是後面才設立因為把我們當初楊梅收廢站廢掉以後他去設一個楊梅休息站但是其實在南下不到20公里的地方就有一個新竹的湖口休息站不到20公里就有那如果把這個楊梅休息站"},{"start":656.428,"end":682.026,"text":"撤銷把我們現有國道公路警察楊梅分隊移到我們現在的休息站然後把現有的楊梅分隊其實現在楊梅分隊其實牠的場子齁辦公場子也不服他們使用也老舊了那如果把這一個辦公場子楊梅分隊現有的場子拆除以後然後把楊梅分隊移到休息站"},{"start":682.566,"end":706.334,"text":"那這樣子就可以解決我們閘道的問題還有閘道拓寬的用地而且也沒有休息站車流衝突的問題那這一部分就可以讓我們很多的問題來解決那我們當然地方大家也在講這個叫做閃轉騰挪兩難治解也就是說這樣子的做法對民眾的影響最小"},{"start":706.974,"end":721.909,"text":"工程的可行性也最大最主要他的經費成本也是最少因為他幾乎不用去徵收民間的用地也不用拆民宅因為本來有提出一個討論如果從秀才路做因為他旁邊"},{"start":723.05,"end":723.23,"text":"涂權吉"},{"start":743.863,"end":763.719,"text":"北出南入閘道這個問題也可以順勢來解決陽梅30年暢通網路得以完整建置就可以從現在的孝前路通到新疆路再通到秀才路秀才路再現在通到深深路這一段已經打通了然後後面那一段就是我剛剛講的4.6億"},{"start":765.981,"end":795.981,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":796.261,"end":802.789,"text":"是否有空 有機會 左院長可以到我們陽梅跟部長來這邊視察一下幫我們解決一下這個30年沒有辦法解決的問題"},{"start":806.3,"end":826.296,"text":"是的 涂委員剛剛在這裡聆聽這一段委員對地方尤其楊梅頭城這一段道路以及休息站的這種講話真的是自嘆不如啦你講得非常非常的詳細但是就我們來聽還不如到現場去看一次所以我會請部長來安排我們現在有個時間然後到現場去看那到時候再請委員多多的指教"},{"start":827.096,"end":848.513,"text":"對因為今天提出真的是非常希望院長部長我們大家我們常常講服務不分黨派建設不分族群大家全力共同努力為地方解決多年的建設我說尤其剛才講大家都是基層出身希望院長部長我們陽明的鄉親希望看到你們我們請部長來安排謝謝還有針對我們"},{"start":851.963,"end":878.463,"text":"三大快速道路因為現在我們我們交通部也有在規劃板龍快速道路跟新梅隆快速道路那板龍快速道路現在已經進行評估那新梅隆快速道路現在7月份已經決標可行性評估那重點我們本週也合訂我們行政院的桃竹苗的大細股計畫那如果我們"},{"start":879.344,"end":901.748,"text":"大細股計畫再配合這兩個快速道路因為現在市府也有提出五橫五縱串流城鄉的一個園景因為現在桃園因為航空城的建置而且就像剛剛院長有提桃園市現在真的人口快速成長車流也增加非常非常的多如果這個兩個快速道路要"},{"start":902.388,"end":920.093,"text":"新建再配合我們桃竹廟大西湖計畫如果市府現在有規劃三大快速道路就是桃北快跟環溪快還有城中快這個如果建制完成的話就可以達到五橫五縱來解決我們桃園市"},{"start":920.953,"end":946.089,"text":"如果將來如果桃園市我們板隆跟新梅隆快速道路如果建制完成但是如果這三條快速道路沒有向市區延伸的話最後市區還是會造成擁捨而且道路不足以因應的問題那今天最主要提出就是希望交通部能夠支持地方做這個可行性評估的研究經費大概9000萬"},{"start":948.038,"end":970.278,"text":"是,報告委員,這個部分因為桃園市直轄市不符合這個交通部生活圈補助的這個規定但是它其實有一個預算是可以用的,棄燃費內的這個滾動檢討、支應跟自籌財源的這個部分我覺得這個部分是可以去思考,由桃園市政府他們自己先做可行性評估的這個預算,他們先來處理"},{"start":972.52,"end":993.938,"text":"因為現在提出就是因為一直跟交通部有我們這邊有發文市府有發文可是有碰到一些問題那今天提出我想院長也在因為我們基於為地方建設因為這三條快速道路如果可以做也是解決我們中央興建板農跟新梅農快速道路"},{"start":994.415,"end":1020.474,"text":"讓他整體連貫能夠解決我們車流擁捨還有將來道路不足以因應的問題最主要又剛好配合我們現在桃竹苗的大矽谷計畫我覺得這是應該中央應該要給予大力的協助我們應該要樂觀其成才對那這部分就請院長跟部長再研議我們今天有機會提出也希望能夠大力來跟我們支持"},{"start":1024.5,"end":1038.733,"text":"好那這部分就請我們交通部長可以先回座那接下來的部分就是我們針對我們環境部部長彭部長那院長那這個也是"},{"start":1046.769,"end":1068.915,"text":"最近一直大家在討論的一個問題現在媒體也都一直非常重視這個問題就是當初彭部長也有講不要讓SRF污名化那當然我們也不希望可是我記得我在7月的時候有在總質詢有提出針對我們經濟部6月有提出草案"},{"start":1069.415,"end":1093.268,"text":"我說這個排放標準就是垃圾焚化爐的標準不管你是SRF的燃料還是它的燃燒排放的標準裡面的鉛 鋼 鎘的含量以及燃燒時候所產生的鈣耀鋅的排放量都是我們垃圾焚化爐的標準而且是一模一樣當初我們彭部長"},{"start":1094.5,"end":1112.148,"text":"也有講說會重研來處理可是後來很可惜我們看到9月份好像9月份的簡報我們看到好像還是一樣我相信這個院長應該也有記憶那時候在總諮詢的時候我們有提出"},{"start":1115.268,"end":1133.684,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是SRF如果製造廠經過完整的分類篩選之後他就沒有那種所謂的燒垃圾的問題基本上沒有一件事情是垃圾他基本上是可以被回收的那回收完了之後經過分類之後進到燃燒的鍋爐那鍋爐之後基本上就不會有這些問題"},{"start":1134.505,"end":1162.385,"text":"但是問題是說我們現在把這種任何燒的找到一個最嚴格目前我們國內最嚴格的還是以焚化爐那焚化爐只要它包含了帶氧性的管制能夠加一些拖流或是說除碳的這種設備的話其實這個問題就可以解決所以也請委員放心這個我們後來比較的是歐盟還有全世界各最嚴格的標準拿來所以目前我必須說我們SRF標準是全世界我們把所有列出來每一個國家有的我們都把它列進去"},{"start":1162.785,"end":1168.262,"text":"所以部長你意思說現在我們SRF的標準是OK的"},{"start":1168.777,"end":1189.056,"text":"是OK的可是我們看了以後其實我們針對SIF這個標準我們燃料的部分其實當然是國際的最低標然後針對這個代耗芯的部分我們現在看一下代耗芯的部分因為我知道我們後來有去針對16家廠商有做總體檢"},{"start":1192.819,"end":1214.825,"text":"那而且我們這個總級檢測排放量據我了解還是還是低標的用低標的方式去去檢測那居然用低標的方式去檢測16家裡面合格的只有12家也就是說有4家他這個戴耀星的排放量是超標的低標他還超標喔對吧"},{"start":1215.985,"end":1241.621,"text":"對報告委員其實他們都承諾他們如果要繼續用下去的話我們也給他一點點時間然後要達到我們的標準才可以進行那報告委員因為我這樣那麼嚴格所以今天中國時報還特別說我們這樣就扼殺了產業的發展所以也請委員要諒解說我們積極在保護國人的生活的安全那我們還是會跟一些工業的安全我們會給他們一點點時間去改善但是我們一定會去讓他所有都打標"},{"start":1242.642,"end":1242.802,"text":"主席"},{"start":1262.169,"end":1276.25,"text":"現在桃園市府也針對我們SRF廠好像也有撤銷入園好像也送到經濟部 是吧 郭部長送到經濟部報告委員 現在業者他已經對這個桃園市政府的處分提出溯願"},{"start":1278.137,"end":1295.043,"text":"我們現在由經濟部的訴願委員會審理之中我們會依相關事實跟法律的專業來做決定環境部的彭部長也有跟您報告我們現在就是依最嚴格的規範來處理他們的訴願"},{"start":1300.204,"end":1322.845,"text":"我也希望中央跟地方可以聯合來希望中央能夠理解支持因為其實我們一直有講我們也不是反傷我們也希望經濟要能夠好但是當初這個入園確實我覺得缺乏一些程序正義那有些部分該補足的部分還是要去補足該嚴格執行的地方還是要去嚴格執行"},{"start":1323.405,"end":1344.518,"text":"因為現在地方民意真的反彈很大一直都希望是不是針對這一部分能夠做民意調查甚至有人說是不是應該要提出公投能夠傾聽基層的聲音當然這一部分我也希望經濟部跟市府針對這一部分好好來為我們民眾的健康把關解決這個空氣汙染的問題"},{"start":1346.92,"end":1347.72,"text":"我們會讓我們在桃園的鄉親了解"},{"start":1375.293,"end":1394.084,"text":"我們確實為鄉親的健康在做把關我希望說我們中央也要顧全到我們民眾基層的心聲針對這部分SRF真的要好好的管理好好的管制不要給民眾有太多的疑慮"},{"start":1394.884,"end":1414.258,"text":"報告委員其實觀音的地方還有很多不明的地下工廠我們現在環境部也很主動的用AI的方式收集一些氣體我們也特別送給觀音的一些代表希望他們能夠主動幫我們抓我們希望把這種偷牌的當地民眾引以為恐慌的問題能夠找到"},{"start":1416.513,"end":1441.07,"text":"那也希望我們大家中央地方能夠把這些問題都做一個最好的解決的方式那針對藻礁的部分因為這一部分可能要跟大家說明一下在109年11月的時候我們的前總統蔡英文總統有去視察觀音沿海藻礁因為當時選定我們觀塘的工業區那邊要來做"},{"start":1442.133,"end":1466.262,"text":"三接工程所以當時針對沿海藻礁很多環保人士保育團體針對這個三接工程可能會破壞藻礁的問題當時我們蔡英文總統也提出要提出10億的基金來保育藻礁的生態那針對這部分後來我們看到好像中油公司"},{"start":1467.826,"end":1490.774,"text":"後來編列這個基金好像叫做生態保育基金好像並不是完全針對山階工程破壞藻礁而成立的那這部分我們郭部長你要不要說明一下報告委員這個部分我想我回去以後再跟中友討論一下子為什麼就像你所指教的這一個為什麼那兩個字不見"},{"start":1492.754,"end":1519.367,"text":"對 因為我要在這邊說明就是說當初成立這個確實就是蔡總統去視察三階施工會破壞藻礁而且當時在現場給民眾的承諾那後來我們就覺得說為什麼不是藻礁生態保育那只是單純做生態我想說單純做生態中油幹嘛要去搶環境部的工作"},{"start":1519.787,"end":1521.349,"text":"應該是那個時候還沒有成立環境部"},{"start":1534.242,"end":1552.753,"text":"那重點我真的希望這部分我們專款專用而且當初成立這個宗旨就是為了保護藻礁那結果另一個這個名目好像不是專門為藻礁而且感覺好像是好像不知道以為是環境部成立的一個基金會"},{"start":1554.193,"end":1576.608,"text":"這部分真的要好好處理不然大家會擔心說到時候這個錢不是專門用在藻礁到時候會不會別有用途還有我們針對藻礁基金管理他有成立一個諮詢委員會這個委員的名單我希望我們部長能夠去好好來"},{"start":1578.31,"end":1589.914,"text":"徵詢一下因為我現在針對說地方人士還有一些保育團體他們所提出的疑慮因為當初中友總經理跟副總經理當初剛開始對於藻礁"},{"start":1593.897,"end":1620.155,"text":"發表的言論讓他們覺得並不是很友好而且還有我們中研院的學者他當時也是支持三階外推而且他說不會破壞藻礁然後我們的基金監察人是我們的前環保署副署長 詹順貴他們一直說這樣子的黃金陣容讓他們覺得非常憂心因為找了一堆"},{"start":1621.036,"end":1640.379,"text":"找了一些成員對藻礁並不是很有善並不是很支持藻礁的保育工作的人來擔任這個藻礁基金委員會的委員所以這部分是不是能夠再幫我們來注意一下是的我們回去以後會來了解"},{"start":1642.588,"end":1668.773,"text":"好那這部分請部長多幫忙針對這個成員能夠幫我們來瞭解篩選一下因為我們認為藻礁的保育基金當然要保護藻礁對這個藻礁保護很有心很想做的人去做不應該是反對藻礁的人去做這個藻礁保育基金還有我們針對棕油藻礁保育那部長你知不知道我們"},{"start":1669.966,"end":1696.625,"text":"找交保育的現在的成果怎麼樣沒關係我大概說明因為在之前111年我們中游針對關棠生育保育成果發表會他說保育成果豐碩可是我們看真的是非常非常的憂心因為根據我們查到的數據"},{"start":1698.1,"end":1723.733,"text":"了解而且這個數據也是臺灣中油他們自己做的監測報告我們看一下從108年到113年他這個監測站是最接近三接的地方結果你看從108年這個三個監測站他的平均值最少都還有50幾%高的到81%多"},{"start":1726.515,"end":1742.981,"text":"針對他這個殼狀珊瑚礁覆蓋率的部分有這麼高可是從108年開始都還可以可是你看喔從108年11月山階開始建造以後你看看這個藻礁"},{"start":1744.329,"end":1745.19,"text":"那不知道部長你針對這有什麼看法"},{"start":1758.608,"end":1775.006,"text":"這個我要再了解一下請彭部長報告委員這個我會跟我們因為我們有緩管師會去因為專門去監測考察這個環評通過有沒有按照原來的方式做那報告委員我會把這個數據拿回去我們再調查再送一份報告給委員"},{"start":1776.561,"end":1790.389,"text":"對因為這個數據喔真的讓我們大家很憂心這就跟我們剛剛前面有講這個藻礁保育基金的問題你看當初大家也是相信政府說三接不會迫害藻礁那"},{"start":1791.329,"end":1791.909,"text":"人類跟大自然和平相處"},{"start":1820.635,"end":1822.017,"text":"謝謝涂權吉委員 謝謝主委長跟相關部會社長 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"17:01:49 - 17:32:26","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155067","gazette":{"lineno":555,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（17時1分）謝謝院長，謝謝主席。請我們卓院長，還有經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、郭部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：院長好、部長好。針對這次山陀兒颱風襲臺，當然在災前防颱跟災後重建的工作上，也感謝我們國軍、警消人員，還有我們很多的行政體系相關的同仁所做的努力，當然我們是給予肯定，也感謝他們，辛苦了。針對這次山陀兒颱風，主要造成南臺灣的影響是不是比較嚴重？院長，是不是南部比較嚴重，這一次？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它從南部上來，而且行徑路線非常詭異，停留時間又長又慢，所以造成損害，當初我們就已經有預測到對南部，尤其是因為風力非常強大，對電力受損方面會有比較多的狀況。"],["涂委員權吉：請問它正式登陸的時候是幾號？"],["郭部長智輝：是昨天的12點40分。"],["涂委員權吉：是10月3號中午才正式登陸，據我們了解是從高雄登陸，現在重點是，我們也知道其實這次颱風對南臺灣的影響比較大，對北臺灣相對影響是比較小，可是現在重點問題在於，這個颱風還沒有登陸，可是在我們桃園，尤其沿海地方，本席的選區大園、觀音、新屋、楊梅，就已經在10月2號，10月3號才登陸，可是10月2號，我們沿海選區的部分就有四千九百多戶，大概約5,000戶造成大規模的停電，請問院長跟部長有沒有掌握到這個訊息？"],["郭部長智輝：這一部分的停電應該是外力造成的，目前我們收到的訊息就是是外力造成……"],["涂委員權吉：那其實針對這部分……"],["郭部長智輝：短暫時間的停電。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這部分其實我們是有問過台電，台電的說法當然又歸咎於電力饋線的跳脫，其實針對電力饋線跳脫，如果部長有了解，院長應該也可以掌握一下，桃園最近台電說饋線跳脫停電真的不知道講了多少次，針對這一次，你看，颱風10月3號才到，10月2號就大規模停電，這對我們地方、桃園的影響真的非常大，而且我們看一下網路的統計，針對今年十大跳電熱議城市，你看第一名桃園市在網路的聲量，根據網路溫度計的統計高達二十一萬五千多，比第二名的新北、臺北多了十八萬多，而且桃園市第一名的這個聲量，比後面第二名加到第十名的九個縣市加起來熱議的程度還多很多，這剛好也證明了桃園跳電的頻率真的高於其他很多縣市，所以我不知道院長跟部長有沒有注意到這個問題？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個問題我們一直在關注，主要是因為搬進桃園住的人比較多。第二個，因為有一些設施比較老舊。由於這兩個元素，造成它比較容易跳電。我們現在對電網韌性也準備了大概5,600億的錢，之前我們本來是預定10年把電網韌性完成，但是院長有指示，我們必須要在4年內完成，所以我們對於容易跳電的紅區都有規劃出來，我跟委員報告，我們一定會在明年年終之前，把桃園所有容易跳電的地方全部整治。"],["涂委員權吉：好。其實剛剛部長也有提到，在2022年確實有正式公告針對強韌電網的計畫要投資五千六百多億，我們現在想了解就是其實已經做了兩年多，當然剛剛部長也有講期許明年能夠完成，我們也樂觀其成。所以這部分真的也想請部長，當然院長也幫我們多重視一下，停電的問題對民眾真的造成非常非常大的困擾，我真的要替桃園市民抱屈，桃園有五大電廠，觀音大潭電廠、蘆竹長生電廠、大園汽電共生電廠、龜山華亞汽電共生燃煤電廠，還有龜山國光電廠等，我們有五個電廠，觀音大潭電廠還是全臺灣最大的天然氣電廠，可是每次停電都是觀音、都是新屋、都是沿海，頻率最高，而且每次都是先停，在我們周邊設這麼多電廠，我們常常講這邊很多民眾要忍受這麼多的污染，對市民健康那麼大的影響，但跳電、停電次數多，每次又都首當其衝，所以希望這部分，院長、部長真的要幫我們重視一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。桃園市是一個新興人口在短時間內快速成長的都市，所以剛剛部長所說的，它整個用電負荷是明顯超過其現在老舊電網所能夠負荷的，所以我們非常重視。我還記得在6月份的時候，我就已經到過桃園去看一個現場在修復電線的台電工人，給他們加油、鼓勵，也同時對整個桃園區，我們希望把部長所說的，能夠在未來看得到的時間內，明年、幾年內能夠完成，將整個熱區的地方能夠迅速地來補正，這個是我們當初下的一個決定，現在我們就朝這個目標跟方向，台電的同仁非常努力在進行。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我也希望部長、院長有空可以到我們沿海去視察一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["涂委員權吉：其實我們沿海真的是非常支持民進黨的，是一個民主聖地，你看那麼多支持民進黨的，我們也希望來的都是建設，能夠好好照顧沿海的鄉親，桃園市的民眾為了地方能源政策，也設了那麼多的電廠，希望中央、行政院跟部長能夠來重視。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，水、電、民生的維持、人民的需求，我們一律一視同仁。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。再請一下交通部部長。","我先請問一下院長跟交通部部長，針對這部分，也跟院長報告，院長跟陳世凱部長，我們都是地方議員出身，當然地方議員出身，其實我們都是最基層的，所以基層民間的聲音我們都瞭解，今天提地方的交通建設需求，也希望院長跟部長能夠多重視一下。首先我們先感謝交通部，謝謝交通部針對我們桃園市楊梅甡甡路延伸到中山南路的省改計畫，這一筆4.6億也感謝交通部的幫忙，讓這一筆經費能夠保留下來，匡列在114年到118年，這部分也要感謝交通部的支持跟協助。我想請問一下陳部長，針對國道1號楊梅至頭份段的拓寬工程，這個工程不知道部長瞭解嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：基礎上應該瞭解。"],["涂委員權吉：這個部分我在3月份的時候也跟當時的交通部長拜託，因為國道1號楊梅到頭份的拓寬工程，當時交通部說沒有設匝道、沒有設交流道，所以造成我們地方非常大的恐慌，後來也跟交通部溝通，也請我們交通局針對北出南入的匝道部分，希望一併來施作。這個部分也大概跟部長說明一下，針對北出匝道的部分，在校前路，因為它的交通流量、服務水平到達C級，也就是說目前還可以容納現有的交通量；但比較有問題的部分就是南入的匝道，在校前路南入匝道的部分，當初有評估，南入匝道從校前路要進去高速公路，目前欠缺匝道的用地，而且跟現在楊梅交流道的車流動線會有車流衝突，並且拓寬也需要相當的用地，所以三方面搶地會造成一些問題。後來因為地方非常重視這個問題，經過地方密集溝通，也協商、集思廣益，這個部分就要請行政院及交通部來幫忙，因為當初有設一個楊梅休息站，那是後面才設立的，當初把楊梅收費站廢掉以後，設置了楊梅休息站，但其實在南下不到20公里的地方就有一個新竹的湖口休息站，不到20公里就有，如果把這個楊梅休息站撤銷，把現有國道公路警察楊梅分隊移到現在的休息站，其實楊梅分隊的辦公場址已經不敷使用、也老舊了，如果把楊梅分隊現有的辦公場址拆除，然後把楊梅分隊移到休息站，這樣就可以解決匝道的問題，還有匝道拓寬的用地，而且也沒有休息站車流衝突的問題，這個部分就可以解決很多現有的問題。地方大家也在講這個叫做輾轉騰挪，兩難自解，也就是說這樣的作法對民眾影響最小，工程的可行性也最大，最主要是經費成本也最少，因為幾乎不用去徵收民間用地，也不用拆民宅；本來是有提出一個討論，如果從秀才路做，因為旁邊屋舍林立，要去拓寬的話會拆很多房子，要徵收土地，道路要拓寬，我們覺得那個難度很高。今天提出來就是請院長幫忙這部分，因為楊梅到頭份的拓寬工程是一個非常重大的工程，如果能夠解決楊梅北出南入匝道的問題，也可以順勢解決楊梅30年以來的問題，讓暢通路網得以完整建置，就可以從現在的校前路通到新江路，再通到秀才路，現在秀才路通到甡甡路的這一段已經打通了，後面那一段就是我剛剛講的4.6億，從甡甡路通到中山南路，也就是縱貫路臺1線，這樣的話，楊梅30年以來整個完整的暢通路網就可以一併完成，如果楊梅至頭份的拓寬工程再加上北出南入匝道一併施作，就可以將我們這30年沒有辦法解決的問題一併解決。所以很多的鄉親很期望，也想看看我們的卓院長是不是有空、有機會可以到我們楊梅？跟部長來這邊視察一下，幫我們解決一下這個30年沒有辦法解決的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，涂委員，剛剛在這裡聆聽這一段委員對地方，尤其楊梅、頭份這一段道路以及休息站的這種想法，真的是自嘆不如，你講得非常非常的詳細，但是就我們來聽，還不如到現場去看一次，所以我會請部長來安排，我們找個時間到現場去看，到時候再請委員多多指教。"],["涂委員權吉：對，今天提出真的非常期望院長、部長，我們常常講服務不分黨派、建設不分族群，大家全力共同努力為地方解決多年的建設，尤其剛剛有講大家都是基層出身，院長、部長，我們楊梅的鄉親很期望看到你們。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我請部長來安排，也跟委員配合。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。還有針對我們三大快速道路，因為現在我們交通部也有在規劃板龍快速道路跟新梅龍快速道路，板龍快速道路現在已經進行評估，新梅龍快速道路7月份已經決標可行性評估。重點是本週也核定行政院的桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，如果大矽谷計畫再配合這兩個快速道路，而現在市府也有提出五橫五縱串流城鄉的一個遠景，桃園現在因為航空城的建置，而且就像剛剛院長提的，桃園市現在真的人口快速成長，車流也增加非常非常地多，如果這兩個快速道路要興建，再配合桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，加上市府現在有規劃三大快速道路，就是桃北快、環西快還有城中快，這個如果建置完成的話，就可以達到五橫五縱來解決我們桃園市……將來如果桃園市的板龍跟新梅龍快速道路建置完成，但是這三條快速道路沒有向市區延伸的話，最後市區還是會造成壅塞而且道路不足以因應的問題。今天提出最主要就是希望交通部能夠支持地方做可行性評估的研究經費，大概是9,000萬。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分因為桃園是直轄市，不符合交通部的生活圈補助規定，但是它其實有一個預算是可以用的，就是有關汽燃費內的滾動檢討支應跟自籌財源的部分，我覺得這個部分可以思考由桃園市政府自己先做可行性評估的預算，他們先來處理。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這部分，因為市府有發文給交通部，可是碰到一些問題，今天提出是因為院長也在，基於為地方建設，因為這三條快速道路如果可以做，也是配合中央新建板龍跟新梅龍快速道路，讓它整體連貫，能夠解決車流壅塞還有將來道路不足以因應的問題，最主要又剛好配合現在的桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，我覺得中央應該要給予大力的協助，我們應該要樂觀其成才對！這部分就請院長跟部長再研議，今天有機會提出，也希望能夠大力來跟我們支持！好，請交通部長可以先回座。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們再來研議，謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：接下來的部分就是針對環境部彭部長。院長，這也是最近大家一直在討論的一個問題，媒體也都一直非常重視這個問題，當初彭部長也有講：不要讓SRF污名化。當然我們也不希望，可是我記得我在7月總質詢的時候有提出，針對經濟部6月有提出草案，我說這個排放標準就是垃圾焚化爐的標準，不管是SRF的燃料還是它的燃燒排放標準，裡面的鉛、汞、鎘的含量以及燃燒時所產生的戴奧辛排放量，都是我們垃圾焚化爐的標準，而且是一模一樣，當初彭部長也有說會從嚴處理，可是後來很可惜，我們看到9月份的簡報好像還是一樣，我相信院長應該也有記憶，在總質詢的時候我們有提出。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實第一個是SRF如果製造廠經過完整的分類篩選之後，它就沒有那種所謂燒垃圾的問題，基本上沒有一件事情是垃圾，它基本上是可以被回收的，回收完了之後，經過分類之後進到燃燒的鍋爐，鍋爐之後基本上就不會有這些問題。但是問題是，我們現在把這種任何燒的找到一個最嚴格的，目前國內最嚴格的還是焚化爐，焚化爐只要它包含了戴奧辛的管制，能夠加一些脫硫或是除碳設備的話，其實這個問題就可以解決。所以也請委員放心，我們後來比較的是歐盟，還有拿全世界最嚴格的標準，因此目前我必須說，我們SRF標準是全世界……我們把所有的列出來，每一個國家有的我們就把它列進去。"],["涂委員權吉：部長的意思是現在我們SRF的標準是OK的？"],["彭部長啓明：是OK的。"],["涂委員權吉：可是我們看了以後，其實針對SRF的標準，燃料的部分當然是國際的最低標，然後針對戴奧辛的部分，我們現在看一下戴奧辛的部分，因為我知道我們後來有針對16家廠商做總體檢嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["涂委員權吉：而且總體檢的排放量，據我了解還是低標的，用低標的方式去檢測，居然用低標的方式去檢測，16家裡面合格的只有12家，也就是有4家的戴奧辛排放量是超標的，低標還超標，對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，其實他們都承諾如果要繼續用下去的話，我們也給他們一點點時間，然後要達到我們的標準才可以進行。也報告委員，因為我這麼嚴格，所以今天中國時報還特別報導我們這樣就扼殺了產業的發展，所以也請委員要諒解，我們積極在保護國人生活的安全，但我們也會給他們一點點時間去改善，我們一定會讓它所有都達標。"],["涂委員權吉：當然我們也不是反商啦！畢竟經濟的部分我們也是要兼顧，所以針對這一部分，我希望部長也要履行承諾，環境部應該要拿出新的管理標準還有它的檢查數據來保護人民，尤其現在桃園市府也針對SRF廠有撤銷入園，好像也送到經濟部，是吧？郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在業者已經對桃園市政府的處分提出訴願，目前由經濟部的訴願委員會審理之中，我們會依相關事實跟法律的專業來做決定。剛才環境部彭部長也有跟您報告，我想我們現在就是依最嚴格的規範來處理他們的訴願。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我也希望中央跟地方可以聯合，希望中央能夠理解、支持，其實我們一直有講，我們也不是反商，我們也希望經濟能夠好，但是我覺得當初這個入園確實缺乏一些程序正義，有些該補足的部分還是要去補足，該嚴格執行的地方還是要去嚴格執行，因為現在地方民意真的反彈很大，一直都希望針對這一部分能夠做民意調查，甚至有人說是不是應該要提出公投，能夠傾聽基層的聲音。當然我也希望經濟部跟市府針對這一部分好好為我們民眾的健康把關，解決空氣污染的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想中央跟地方政府應該都會協助符合嚴謹環保規範的廠商來設廠營運，我們歡迎他們來臺灣投資設廠，但是我想規範我們一定會讓他們完全了解，這個規範當然是在世界上大家可以要求的，我們也會讓桃園的鄉親了解我們確實為鄉親的健康在把關，我們不會輕易地放他們進來。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！針對SRF的利弊得失，我希望中央也要顧全到民眾基層的心聲，針對SRF部分，真的要好好地管理、好好地管制，不要給民眾有太多的疑慮。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實觀音還有很多不明的地下工廠，現在我們環境部也很主動用AI的方式收集一些氣體，特別送給觀音的一些代表，希望他們能夠主動幫我們抓，我們希望把這種偷排的、造成當地民眾恐慌的這個問題能夠找到。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。也希望中央、地方大家能夠把這些問題都做一個最好的解決方式。","針對藻礁的部分，可能要跟大家說明一下，在109年11月的時候，我們的前總統蔡英文總統有去視察觀音沿海藻礁，因為當時選定觀塘工業區要做三接工程，所以當時針對沿海藻礁，很多環保人士、保育團體提出三接工程可能會破壞藻礁的問題，當時我們蔡英文總統也有提出要提出10億基金來保育藻礁生態，針對這部分，我們看到中油公司後來有編列這個基金，叫做「生態保育基金」，好像並不是完全針對三接工程破壞藻礁而成立的基金，關於這部分，郭部長要不要說明一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個部分，我想我回去以後，再跟中油討論一下，就像你所指教的，為什麼那兩個字不見，再來跟委員報告。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我要在這邊說明，當初成立這個確實就是蔡總統去視察三接施工會破壞藻礁，而且當時在現場給民眾的承諾，後來我們覺得為什麼不是「藻礁生態保育」，而只是單純做生態，如果單純做生態，中油幹嘛要去搶環境部的工作？而且這個生態保育是針對全臺灣，中油有必要搶我們環境部彭部長的工作嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是那個時候還沒有成立環境部。"],["涂委員權吉：那也有環保署。"],["彭部長啓明：我們才一年而已。"],["涂委員權吉：重點是，我真的希望這部分專款專用，當初成立的宗旨就是為了保護藻礁，結果立一個名目好像不是專門為藻礁，不知道的人還以為是環境部成立的一個基金，所以這部分真的要好好處理，不然大家會擔心到時候這些錢不是專門用在藻礁，會不會別有用途？還有針對藻礁基金管理有成立一個諮詢委員會，這個委員的名單，我希望部長能夠好好徵詢，因為現在地方人士，還有一些保育團體有提出疑慮，當初中油總經理跟副總經理對於藻礁發表的言論，讓他們覺得並不是很友好，而且還有中研院的學者當時也是支持三接外推，而且他說不會破壞藻礁，然後基金監察人是前環保署副署長詹順貴，他們一直說這樣子的黃金陣容，讓他們覺得非常憂心，因為找了一些對藻礁並不是很友善、並不是很支持藻礁保育工作的人，來擔任藻礁基金委員會的委員，所以這部分是不是能夠再幫我們注意一下？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我們回去以後會來了解。"],["涂委員權吉：好，這部分請部長多幫忙，針對成員的部分能夠幫我們了解、篩選一下，因為我們認為藻礁的保育基金當然要保護藻礁，讓對藻礁保護很有心、很想做的人去做，不應該是反對藻礁的人去做藻礁保育基金。還有針對中油的藻礁保育，部長，你知不知道藻礁保育現在的成果怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們沒有針對這個……"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，我先大概說明，因為在之前111年，中油針對觀塘生態保育成果發表會，它說保育成果豐碩，可是我們看真的是非常、非常的憂心。因為根據我們查到的數據瞭解，而且這個數據也是台灣中油自己做的監測報告，我們看一下，從108年到113年，這個監測站是最接近三接的地方，結果108年這3個監測站的平均值，最少都還有百分之五十幾，高的到百分之八十一點多，針對殼狀珊瑚礁覆蓋率的部分有這麼高，108年開始都還可以，可是從108年11月三接開始建造以後，你看看藻礁、殼狀珊瑚礁覆蓋率大幅下降，從百分之八十幾已經剩百分之十幾了。這個是中油自己做的數據，不知道部長針對這個有什麼看法？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我要再瞭解一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：請彭部長說明。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我們有環管司會專門去監測、考察這個環評通過後，有沒有按照原來的方式做，我會把這個數據拿回去，我們再調查，再送一份報告給委員。"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為這個數據真的讓我們大家很憂心，這就跟我們剛剛前面講藻礁保育基金的問題一樣，你看當初大家也是相信政府說三接不會破壞藻礁，也擔心這個問題，所以後來也承諾成立藻礁保育基金要來保育藻礁。你看現在很明確，連中油自己做的數據，殼狀珊瑚礁覆蓋率真的是大幅下降，而且很明顯是從三接開始做的時候瞬間消失，所以這一部分也希望院長和部長大家多幫忙，讓我們的生態保育能夠做得更好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員提醒，人類跟大自然和平相處，不僅是工程進行當中的必要，也是我們所有在施政上的理念。這個很謝謝，我們請彭部長……"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["卓院長榮泰：再進一步去做監測的時候，再做實際的調查。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂權吉委員，謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第56位張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra 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繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137701_00006"}}},{"date":"2024-10-04","影片長度":"00:15:49","end_time":"2024-10-04T17:01:36+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155066","委員名稱":"李昆澤","duration":949,"start_time":"2024-10-04T16:45:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/045a6e837d73a06a68be72e3de9388dc7a8a9d3d5bde67040964f48edfcc165c04f3c95b4c290d315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.60159375,"end":23.774093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.22971875,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.26721875,"end":27.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.48221875,"end":30.355343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.266593750000002,"end":32.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.665968750000005,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.15534375,"end":41.813468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.38721875,"end":43.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.454718750000005,"end":47.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.12471875,"end":57.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.40596875000001,"end":65.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.75909375,"end":74.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.73659375000001,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.90471875,"end":94.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.76721875000001,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.36159375000001,"end":148.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.85159375,"end":148.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":148.90221875,"end":161.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":161.81159375000001,"end":173.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.37971875000002,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":180.01971875,"end":180.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.42471875,"end":180.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.98534375,"end":184.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.61659375000002,"end":200.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":200.35409375,"end":202.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.45534375000003,"end":208.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":208.99409375000002,"end":217.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.89596875,"end":220.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":218.14034375000003,"end":233.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.41409375,"end":222.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.62034375000002,"end":225.31221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.46346875,"end":236.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":234.23909375000002,"end":234.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.50034375,"end":239.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":237.73221875000002,"end":241.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.73596875,"end":242.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.92971875,"end":243.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.80721875,"end":245.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.98409375000003,"end":250.64159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.08034375000003,"end":263.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.36534375,"end":269.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.99721875,"end":275.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.61659375,"end":279.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.12221875,"end":283.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.86846875000003,"end":287.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.06659375000004,"end":286.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.85096875,"end":288.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.86784375,"end":291.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.04034375000003,"end":303.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.93034375,"end":293.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.86159375,"end":319.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.51096875,"end":303.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.94784375,"end":316.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.02346875,"end":324.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.96346875,"end":325.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.61721875,"end":325.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.93784375,"end":330.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.14846875,"end":337.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.48909375,"end":336.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.54784375,"end":347.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.06534375,"end":351.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.79034375000003,"end":353.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.34284375000004,"end":355.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.09346875,"end":357.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.96659375,"end":369.71159375},{"sp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林亞區也有100位但是人力還是不足 這個顧部長我們能不能加派人力以及我們現在最需要的就是大型的這些車輛機械能夠進駐來協助高雄市盡快的恢復市容 讓市民恢復正常的生活來 請顧部長先簡單說明一下"},{"start":148.916,"end":151.417,"text":"顧部長我提醒你在燕巢有個陸軍工兵訓練中心所稱的"},{"start":178.545,"end":178.605,"text":"李昆澤"},{"start":200.573,"end":227.394,"text":"再走不要讓道路整個阻礙這種交通的便利性防禦市民正常的生活我想八千團裡面有相當的那個鏈鋸就可以鋸斷那個數我們一定會全力支援有關的部長我們就加派人力加派車輛加派大型的機械對那至於要把它抓到早期抓到那個部分上面去有沒有問題但是我們人力上如果說"},{"start":228.575,"end":245.93,"text":"臺電"},{"start":246.05,"end":247.09,"text":"報告委員目前到最新的4點為止的訊息"},{"start":275.697,"end":297.877,"text":"高雄市已經來到36,776戶很快的我們相信在晚上大概8點今天晚上12點以前這個作為目標8點就能夠恢復全部的用電嗎這個是我們的目標因為有一些就像你剛才講道路的問題我們是不是能夠搶進"},{"start":299.318,"end":302.22,"text":"我們現在還在努力我們現在就只剩下水大概有3000多戶"},{"start":322.523,"end":326.204,"text":"議員長最後我再請教議員長有關於救災的問題不管是7月25號的楷米颱風也謝謝議員長第一時間針對50公分以上的我們相關的這個"},{"start":352.013,"end":377.691,"text":"受災戶的補助如果再加上高雄市政府可以領到3萬5千元那低收入戶可以中低收入戶可以領到4萬5千元那50公分以下是領5千元但是如果是低收入戶中低收入戶可以領到1萬5千元那這個給高雄市民即時的溫暖那對於市民的這樣一個恢復正常生活是幫助非常的大"},{"start":378.231,"end":404.977,"text":"那接下來就是說 院長也到高雄市來視察相關的滯洪設施那也提到說 在我們現場的市長以及我們在地名利代表立委的要求那院長也很明快的做出這樣的一個說明跟補充就是說 針對高雄市所需的短中長期的治水預算大概要35億元 那短期的"},{"start":405.717,"end":424.73,"text":"大概就是以這個第二預備金或是救災準備金來做支付那中長期的可能就是要到明年的預算或是看相關的前瞻預算有沒有剩餘款這個部分支水的預算是非常重要的那我最主要說這個院長這個35億的預算現在有沒有問題"},{"start":429.854,"end":450.667,"text":"我希望他不成為問題因為他成為問題的話就會變是大家共同的問題因為這不只是高雄市相關的治水的預算是全台灣各縣市不分黨派重要的治水預算防災的預算因為你現在是極端氣候這種極端氣候的思念各縣市都有可能面臨相關的重大的風災水災"},{"start":452.808,"end":481.688,"text":"臺美颱風之後我們增加了159億總數達到551億的系統性治水我希望他一定要能夠適時的派上用場另外院長我有提到說在2010年法納比颱風也是造成高雄市的重大的水災的災情當然我們一般傳統有50公分以上的補助或50公分以下的補助"},{"start":482.088,"end":505.406,"text":"但是在過去對於集合式住宅大廈大樓是沒有補助的當然有人說大廈大樓不會陰水但是它有地下室地下室如果進水進去它相關的配電設施消防設施電梯設施相關的這些機電的設施等等其實就面臨很大修復的一個問題像"},{"start":508.117,"end":530.146,"text":"議員長所知道的在這一次7月25號的這樣的一個凱利颱風所造成的這個衝擊對三民區對高雄市這個大樓就有影響那記得在華納比颱風的時候當時的市長陳菊市長有向中央申請相關的補助有一筆3500萬的相關的補助是以"},{"start":534.209,"end":534.469,"text":"執行委員：李昆澤"},{"start":563.759,"end":573.125,"text":"就是因為他們是大樓他們沒有什麼50公分以上或50公分以下的這種補助那這種行政院會不會去做思考去做調整或是來給予補助請院長說明"},{"start":575.506,"end":595.431,"text":"好首先非常委員前兩天也非常的辛苦及時提供給高雄市政府團隊跟應變中心相當多的資訊讓我們能夠掌握那麼做必要的處置那委員已經不只一次關心到大樓底下地下室這個機電設備受損的狀況那我們每一次在災害之後都會"},{"start":596.391,"end":596.751,"text":"施政委員：李昆澤"},{"start":620.521,"end":649.234,"text":"那我們是在想想看這個損失這個大樓數量是這樣子損失到底有多少那我們可以跟市政府團隊再來研究看看那我也知道現在還要聽說說有一些大樓本身的防水設備那這個部分我想我們統一的來衡量看看我現在是準備如果時間上允許地方上也可能禮拜天後天是不是能夠到現場我們再去了解實際的狀況之後我會跟部長再做精密的一個研究"},{"start":649.974,"end":650.074,"text":"陳世凱部長"},{"start":672.937,"end":690.951,"text":"陳部長您好,針對這種極端型氣候對於我們交通安全的衝擊是非常的大,尤其這一次的三坨爾颱風不管是公路系統或是鐵道系統,它相關受到風災衝擊之後相關安全的檢視是非常重要"},{"start":691.511,"end":712.354,"text":"當然我們會基於公班他們在復原的這樣狀況安全是最重要的第二是安全的這樣道路不管是鐵道公路的安全品質足不足以負荷人民的這種交通的需求那這次風災之後你們針對公路以及鐵路有沒有相關的這樣一個檢視的程序呢"},{"start":713.603,"end":734.539,"text":"報告委員您比較關心的部分全台的這個公路系統我們現在也都有固定定期的這個邊坡的檢視像今天在基隆那個國一高速公路基隆南下的部分在上高速公路的地方邊坡就坍塌了也造成淹水所以就早上先封閉一直到10點半"},{"start":735.539,"end":761.044,"text":"這個部分我們針對編撥會做一個總體檢在這次的颱風過後會做一個總體檢所以高速公路的部分是這個樣子那公路跟鐵路的部分其實大家比較擔心的會是東部的部分那東部的部分因為4月3號的這個地震之後那個編撥其實是非常的鬆動所以我們幾個防治的作為第一個就是說跟氣象署合作我們做一個QPE Plus的一個系統"},{"start":762.605,"end":779.764,"text":"針對上面最上邊波的氣候的管理如果有比較嚴重的下雨或者是比較極端的氣候的狀況的時候我們會先有一個告警那另外在中邊波的部分我們會跨部會的跟例如說農業部例如說水利署來做合作做這個告警系統"},{"start":780.345,"end":798.636,"text":"那另外針對公路跟鐵路的聯防的部分我們自己也有建構自己的告警系統我們總共建置了26處在崇德跟是何人中間部長剛才有提到有關於東部的鐵路及公路相關的交通安全那在東部的公路跟鐵路的交通安全裡面有一段最重要的就是何人跟崇德之間"},{"start":800.237,"end":814.132,"text":"他不管是有原本的這種蘇花案的計畫改善計畫也在這個路段裡面以及相關的台九縣他相關的這樣的一個土石流或這樣一個零流崩塌的情形也非常的嚴重"},{"start":814.733,"end":840.675,"text":"更因為這一段和忍跟崇德之間接下來造成台鐵相關的這些軌道的淹沒等等這些對於民眾的安全衝擊非常的大讓民眾有個安全的道路所以在相關的我們針對和忍崇德不管是所謂的蘇花安或者是台九線或者是台鐵公司相關的安全現在你們處理的程序跟進度是如何"},{"start":841.595,"end":870.051,"text":"報告委員我們目前有26處的告警系統都已經完成在北回也好宜蘭也好臺東也好花蓮這一段比較危險的地方那另外針對容易落石跟土石流的部分有8處的這個實體的阻隔以及告警系統我們在明年的4月份會完成那另外我們還會建置15處針對鐵路跟公路的比較危險的地段我們在明年的年中之前也會完成這個告警系統部長你要加強這些邊坡的預警以及"},{"start":870.791,"end":871.011,"text":"李昆澤"},{"start":888.239,"end":901.995,"text":"臺20高雄的明霸客路橋它的便當又被沖毀什麼時候可以復原你掌握狀況報告委員我們盡量在趕明天晚上6點之前讓它完成人車都可以通行的狀態在明天晚上18點也是6點之前"},{"start":902.855,"end":922.114,"text":"這個部門要加強的督促我們對於臺鐵的交通安全其實是非常重視以及相關的公路系統這個院長也會來督促交通部針對人民不管是哪個區域西部東部也好對於交通的便利安全一定有一個權利的督促來部長院長最後簡單說明"},{"start":923.593,"end":923.813,"text":"李昆澤委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:45:47 - 17:01:36","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155066","gazette":{"lineno":500,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（16時46分）謝謝主席，請一下卓院長，還有國防部顧部長、經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、相關部會首長備詢。"],["李委員昆澤：院長好。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：保障人民生命財產安全是行政院最重要的工作，這一次山陀兒颱風對南部、尤其是高雄造成重大的風力衝擊跟傷害。在整個過程裡面，我也要先謝謝卓院長，不管是台電或自來水公司、水利署以及相關的部會，尤其是國軍這個部分的協助，希望能夠儘快地讓高雄市民的生活恢復正常。在這邊我首先要請卓院長能不能指示國防部來加派人力，因為整個風力瞬間陣風最強達到17級，我想卓院長也看到電視，貨櫃整個被風吹翻過來，讓人怵目驚心，整個道路的大型樹木真的是倒整片的，所以今天停止上班上課，就是因為整個路面大型的樹木倒成一片，還有玻璃碎片造成相關的安全問題，以及校園的樹木也都倒很多。也謝謝國軍第八軍團已經派了1,000位的國軍弟兄來協助救災，例如三民區就有100位，苓雅區也有100位，但是人力還是不足，顧部長，我們能不能加派人力？以及我們現在最需要的就是大型的車輛、機械能夠進駐，來協助高雄市儘快恢復市容，讓市民恢復正常的生活。請顧部長先簡單說明一下。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我一直在跟八軍團保持聯繫，現在就是只要地方政府提出需求，我們就儘量會加派，但是有一些機具我們本身可能不見得是擁有的，不過我們擁有的部分，我們一定會全力來支派……"],["李委員昆澤：儘量地調派。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["李委員昆澤：顧部長，我提醒你，在燕巢有個陸軍工兵訓練中心，就是所謂的工兵學校，這邊大型的機械、車輛應該是有的，還有相關的人力，也請能夠儘快地調配，來協助高雄市恢復市容。這些大型的樹木如果可以救回來，我們就把它救回來；不行的，我們就趕快現場切割，能夠載走，不要阻礙道路交通的便利性，也妨礙市民正常的生活。"],["顧部長立雄：我想八軍團裡面有相當的鏈鋸，就可以鋸斷那個樹，我們一定會全力支援有關這個……"],["李委員昆澤：部長，我們就加派人力、加派車輛、加派大型的機械……"],["顧部長立雄：對，至於要把抓草機抓到那個部分上面去……"],["李委員昆澤：有沒有問題？"],["顧部長立雄：因為我們沒有這個器具……"],["李委員昆澤：有沒有問題？"],["顧部長立雄：但是我們人力上如果高雄的人力不足，我們就加派人力來協助……"],["李委員昆澤：部長，請你明確地說，加派人力有沒有問題？加派車輛有沒有問題？加派大型的機械有沒有問題？全力地協助高雄市。"],["顧部長立雄：我想只要有需求，我們一定全力協助，我們一定全力協助。"],["李委員昆澤：好，謝謝。我請一下郭部長，台電其實也很辛苦，台電也加緊調派人力，不管是從鄰近的臺南、嘉義等等也調派人力，目前到下午3點半為止，大概還有3萬9,000戶還沒有恢復供電，這個部分請郭部長說明一下，根據你的瞭解，我們最快什麼時候能夠讓高雄市全體住戶恢復供電？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，目前到4點為止的最新訊息，高雄市已經來到3萬6,776戶，很快的，我相信在晚上大概8點……"],["李委員昆澤：今天晚上12點以前，以這個作為目標，8點就能夠恢復全部的用電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是我們的目標。"],["李委員昆澤：好。"],["郭部長智輝：因為就像您剛才講的有一些道路問題，我們是不是能夠搶進，我們現在還在努力。"],["李委員昆澤：謝謝部長。自來水的部分呢？中午我看新聞相關的報導以及資料，自來水的部分還有13萬戶，但是我在差不多4點的時候詢問相關的自來水公司，他們說剩3,000戶的自來水用戶還沒有恢復供水，有這麼神速嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在水的部分大概只剩下三千多戶，這個是在屏東，不是高雄。"],["李委員昆澤：沒有電就沒有水，所以台電公司現在加緊修理相關的復電。"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望今天晚上12點以前，就像委員所指教的，這些都可以恢復送電送水。"],["李委員昆澤：最後，我再請教院長有關於救災的問題，不管是7月25日的凱米颱風，也謝謝院長第一時間針對50公分以上相關的受災戶補助，如果再加上高雄市政府，可以領到3萬5,000元，低收入戶、中低收入戶可以領到4萬5,000元；50公分以下是領5,000元，但是如果是低收入戶、中低收入戶可以領到1萬5,000元，這個是給高雄市民即時的溫暖，對於市民恢復正常生活的幫助非常大。接下來，院長也到高雄市視察相關的滯洪設施，也提到在現場的市長以及在地民意代表、立委的要求，院長也很明快地做出說明跟補充，針對高雄市所需的短中長期治水預算大概要35億元，短期大概以第二預備金或是救災準備金支付，中長期可能就是要到明年的預算，或是看相關的前瞻預算有沒有賸餘款，這部分治水預算是非常重要的，請問院長，最主要的是35億的預算現在有沒有問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望它不成為問題，因為它成為問題的話就會變成是大家共同的問題。"],["李委員昆澤：因為這不只是高雄市相關的治水預算，是全臺灣各縣市不分黨派重要的治水預算、防災預算，尤其現在是極端氣候，這種極端氣候的肆虐，各縣市都有可能面臨相關的重大風災、水災，治災預算絕對是要順利地通過。"],["卓院長榮泰：凱米颱風之後，我們增加了159億，總數達到551億的系統性治水，我希望它一定要能夠適時地派上用場，能夠幫助到。"],["李委員昆澤：這是非常重要。另外，院長，我有提到在2010年凡那比颱風也是造成高雄市重大的水災災情，當然我們一般傳統有50公分以上的補助或50公分以下的補助，但是過去對於集合式住宅、大廈、大樓是沒有補助的，有人說大廈、大樓不會淹水，但是它有地下室，地下室如果進水進去，相關的配電設施、消防設施、電梯設施等相關這些機電設施，其實就面臨一個很大的修復問題。像院長所知道的，在這一次7月25日的凱米颱風所造成的衝擊，對三民區、對高雄市的大樓就有影響，記得在凡那比颱風的時候，當時的市長陳菊市長有向中央申請相關的補助，有一筆3,500萬的相關補助，以用來資助相關的機電設施的復原。卓院長，在全國的救災施政標準都是有一致的標準跟程序，這個部分是不是院長會將相關大樓地下室的機電設施，例如我們那邊的一棟大樓，它的基金只有兩百萬，但是整體修復機電、電梯、消防等等的配電設施，加起來要三百多萬，就是因為他們是大樓，他們沒有什麼50公分以上或50公分以下的這種補助，像這種行政院會不會去做思考、去做調整，或是給予補助，請院長說明？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，委員前兩天也非常辛苦，及時提供給高雄市政府團隊跟應變中心相當多的資訊，讓我們能夠掌握來做必要的處置，委員已經不只一次關心到大樓地下室機電設備受損的狀況，我們每一次在災害之後都會產生新的問題，或是發覺新的問題，像今年我們對住家之外的小店家、小商店，本來以前也沒有任何的補助，今年我們也特別有一些新的狀況、新的補助情形。委員兩、三次都垂詢到大樓底下的機電設備，我現在手中的資料好像只有91棟的大樓在前一次凱米颱風有受到損失，我們在想大樓數量是這樣子，損失到底有多少，我們可以跟市政府團隊再來研究看看；我也知道現在還聽說有一些大樓本身的防水設備，這個部分我想我們統一來衡量看看。如果時間上允許，我現在是準備到地方上，也可能後天禮拜天是不是能夠到現場，我們再去瞭解實際的狀況之後，我會跟部長再做精密地研究。"],["李委員昆澤：謝謝院長對於人民生命財產安全重視的程度。好，謝謝兩位部長。我先請交通部陳世凱部長，陳部長你好！"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：針對這種極端型氣候，對於交通安全的衝擊是非常地大，尤其這一次的山陀兒颱風，不管是公路系統或是鐵道系統受到風災衝擊之後，相關安全的檢視是非常重要。當然，我們會基於工班他們在復原的狀況，安全是最重要的。"],["陳部長世凱：是的，沒錯。"],["李委員昆澤：第二個是安全的道路，不管是鐵道、公路的，安全品質足不足以負荷人民交通的需求，這次風災之後，你們針對公路以及鐵路有沒有相關的檢視程序呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您比較關心的部分是全臺公路系統，我們現在也都有固定定期的邊坡檢視，像今天在國一高速公路基隆南下的部分，在上高速公路的地方邊坡就坍塌了，也造成淹水，所以早上先封閉一直到十點半，對這個部分，我們針對邊坡會做一個總體檢，在這次的颱風過後會做一個總體檢，所以高速公路的部分是這個樣子。而公路跟鐵路的部分，其實大家比較擔心的會是東部的部分，因為4月3號地震之後，那個邊坡其實是非常的鬆動，所以我們有幾個防治作為，第一個就是跟氣象署合作，我們做一個QPEplus的系統，針對上面最上邊坡的氣候管理，如果有比較嚴重的下雨，或者是比較極端氣候狀況的時候，我們會先有一個告警；另外，在中邊坡的部分，我們會跨部會的，例如跟農業部、水利署來合作做這個告警系統。此外，針對公路跟鐵路聯防的部分，我們自己也有建構自己的告警系統，總共建置了26處在崇德跟和仁中間。"],["李委員昆澤：部長剛才有提到關於東部鐵路及公路相關的交通安全。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：在東部公路跟鐵路的交通安全裡面有一段最重要，就是和仁跟崇德之間。"],["陳部長世凱：對！跟崇德隧道中間這一段。"],["李委員昆澤：不管是原本的蘇花安改善計畫也在這個路段裡面，以及台9線相關的土石流或泥流崩塌情形也非常嚴重，更因為這一段和仁跟崇德之間造成臺鐵軌道的淹沒等等，這些對於民眾安全衝擊非常地大，要讓民眾有個安全的道路。所以我們針對和仁、崇德，不管是所謂的蘇花安或者是台9線，或者是臺鐵公司相關的安全，現在你們處理的程序跟進度是如何？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們目前有26處的告警系統都已經完成，在北迴也好、宜蘭也好、臺東也好，花蓮這段比較危險的地方；另外針對容易落石跟土石流的部分有8處的實體阻隔，以及告警系統，我們在明年的4月份會完成；另外我們還會建置15處針對鐵路跟公路比較危險的地段，我們在明年的年中之前也會完成告警系統，這個部分會先做。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，你要加強這些邊坡的預警以及相關的告示系統……"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["李委員昆澤：另外對於加強科技巡視的系統也加緊建立。對於交通安全其實是不分黨派、不分區域，我們對於交通安全要全力地去督促。台20高雄的明霸克露橋的便道又被沖毀，什麼時候可以復原，你有掌握狀況？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們儘量在趕明天晚上6點之前讓它完成人車都可以通行的狀態，在明天晚上18點，也就是6點之前。"],["李委員昆澤：好，這個部分要加強，我們對於臺鐵的交通安全其實是非常重視，以及相關的公路系統，院長也會來督促交通部，針對人民不管是哪個區域，西部、東部也好，對於交通的便利、安全，一定有一個全力的督促，院長，最後簡單說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員關心，颱風來之前我們已經做好了準備，但之後總還是有一些災害發生，我剛剛很欣慰聽到部長說明霸克露橋明天晚上就能夠人車通行，我想這個就是我們要求效率一個很重要的地方，我想每一件事如果都這樣來做，掌握了，把災害降到最低，這是政府應該做到的。"],["李委員昆澤：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第55號涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐富癸","陳菁徽","林宜瑾","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳永康","李昆澤","涂權吉","張智倫"],"page_start":33,"meetingDate":["2024-10-04"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00002","1137701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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總理長你好今天的問政是聚焦在動態的國際情勢變化以及我們國安情勢如何這一個適度的反應那麼實際上我們是提供政府比較精進的一些做法與建言我想可以從這個圖像看出來我們要看的實際上是一個大格局的視野而不是聚焦在一個純粹島嶼的台灣"},{"start":56.208,"end":75.012,"text":"國際情勢的變化萬千面對這個動態的局勢變化對任何一個國家的國安問題都是一個挑戰如果沒有一個完整的架構各位可以從這個圖上看出來因為鬼局難測的"},{"start":85.266,"end":107.547,"text":"國際情勢,比如說俄國戰爭,到今天已經打了950天,以哈戰爭也打了一年多,馬上可能爆發規模升高的伊朗跟以色列的軍事衝突,都不是我們能夠完全掌握的,因為訊息甚多,"},{"start":109.139,"end":136.857,"text":"來源不同展示的報告方式不同媒體不同所以我這邊強烈建議就是先建立一個共同圖像的平台那麼我們可以用比較進步的高科技比方講用GIS ARCGIS然後把國際的圖把它經過校正涵蓋國際圖區域圖亞太圖台灣周遭圖因此台海問題它連結到"},{"start":139.645,"end":147.232,"text":"東海南海他並不是單一的現象同樣在亞洲的問題包括了朝鮮半島日本"},{"start":148.319,"end":150.4,"text":"我們想到了社會的堅韌 民心安定 經濟繁榮 軍事堅強"},{"start":179.448,"end":208.268,"text":"台海的和平這裡面包括了國安的幾個重要的環節政治面 外交面 經濟面 軍事面其實這都跟兩岸相關另外 有關能源社會醫療產業它都是基建相關因此在這個條件下有一個完整的國家安全戰略透過跨部會的橫向協調它可以在比較短的時間做出一個正確 比較正確性高的判斷"},{"start":209.485,"end":209.625,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":229.821,"end":230.001,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":245.956,"end":246.436,"text":"健康臺灣推動委員會"},{"start":272.096,"end":301.537,"text":"有五個主軸但是這個主軸上面的交集支撐以及下面的基礎設施哪些還要強化這個我們還要看到政府持續把細節告知國際情勢變化萬千風險是常存在的但是如果因為國際的關係或是政策面這兩者加上模糊不確定我們就會遇到有一個危機的展示"},{"start":303.615,"end":304.075,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":326.107,"end":349.074,"text":"法制性的國家安全戰略因此在某些狀況下各位可以看到資源的分配不均策略不容易同調跨部會的協調如果不是陳峰或者是院長出來召集就會產生一些困難我們也希望在這個裡面政務委員跨部會協調要扮演更積極的角色"},{"start":350.069,"end":350.209,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":369.172,"end":369.412,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":397.329,"end":397.389,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":425.246,"end":454,"text":"區域的威脅 有謀的變質 國際組織 國際法律資訊安全 氣候變遷 能源膽缺 重大的國際性的傳染病這都影響這兩個不同的輸入 產生了綜合評估國家安全戰略的重要項目 比方講兩岸的情勢 社會的韌性這中間包含了國防 外交 經濟 能源 治安 人口政策最後國家安全戰略是什麼 促進繁榮 確保民主"},{"start":455.731,"end":456.071,"text":"委員長陳永康"},{"start":479.07,"end":479.47,"text":"陳永康議員：陳永康議員"},{"start":504.984,"end":530.123,"text":"在兩年前的國慶政府團隊表示我們要建立強韌型的國家四大韌性已經講了經濟產業社會安全網國防戰力民主自由體制這是一個很好的目標但是怎麼樣去努力達成在今年總統就職滿月的時候也強調了社會防韌性"},{"start":531.457,"end":537.283,"text":"強化國防、民生、災防、民主四大韌性同時面對不對稱作戰應具備的戰略思維諸多牽動"},{"start":542.451,"end":569.078,"text":"主動權的變數很多是受國外國際情勢的影響我們要建立營造國安環境建設性的關係民生與國防的合一這個就是國家韌性的關鍵因素所以國防跟民生這兩個不要切割在國家安全戰略裡面可以相互包容可以做協調而不是單獨聚焦在國防上"},{"start":569.938,"end":593.009,"text":"你要如何軍購如何建立你的防衛能力而這邊呢如何維持不斷水不斷電不斷網能源能進這個要相互支持作為一個海洋國家海洋戰略其實是國防戰略的一環那麼海上交通線的維護海欄的維持衛星的通訊這個都是息息相關的"},{"start":595.439,"end":595.479,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":611.527,"end":611.707,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":635.93,"end":636.17,"text":"陳永康"},{"start":652.23,"end":680.943,"text":"另外就是說我們在原則核心戰術戰局下未來都是趨勢就是所謂的無人化可是無人化的系統並不是載台本身而是你的通訊指管那麼以及所謂的接戰規定交戰規則ROE這些是分層負責每個層級都不一樣的那後面我再向大家做一個敘述的方法"},{"start":682.322,"end":708.907,"text":"這個是參考美軍啊這個從白宮啊這個National Command Authority就是說美國總統國安會跟國防部以及國務院他們如何把他的政策指導下售管理到印太司令部再管理到在駐日美軍駐海美軍甚至海上的艦隊分層負責全責下肉但是他們有一個共同的基礎就是"},{"start":709.844,"end":710.264,"text":"陳永康議員：陳永康議員"},{"start":733.78,"end":734.581,"text":"所以這個圖像可以看出來了"},{"start":749.304,"end":755.053,"text":"COP共同圖像CTP他跟目前我們所謂的聯合情監偵是一貫性的從上到下從下到上"},{"start":765.111,"end":765.171,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":793.985,"end":794.025,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":818.046,"end":818.126,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":846.226,"end":869.38,"text":"二無戰爭打到今天是953天可是一般人都講這個烏克蘭的經驗或者是加薩的經驗我們該學習學英我們同意這種看法但狀況不同的是這個領土面積烏克蘭是台灣的16.7倍人口只有2.3倍"},{"start":871.513,"end":871.633,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":898.353,"end":898.413,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":920.555,"end":920.615,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":946.249,"end":975.299,"text":"他必須全責下授因此烏克蘭是說去中心化但是在以色列跟加薩走廊以色列是完全掌握各位看這個是以色列的加薩走廊這種情況下以色列就沒有所謂的去中心化所以我們在這兩個不同的戰場環境下我們學習人家成功的經驗但是不是完全複製但他犯的錯誤我們不要付第二次的學費"},{"start":980.748,"end":995.326,"text":"我們可以用校正過的圖像 各位可以很清楚的看到台灣在這 烏克蘭在這可是現在伊朗打以色列在這個位置"},{"start":996.909,"end":997.869,"text":"中共打導彈"},{"start":1024.09,"end":1025.771,"text":"這張圖是有坐標經緯度跟落點當然這是根據工情"},{"start":1052.321,"end":1079.929,"text":"所以這是他的彈道高度把這種圖像跨部會分享對我們國際事務的反應上可以提供一個比較客觀的看法而不必對部分就是說名嘴媒體帶風向說我們掌握不住或是他主導多少這個是可以分享的一個資料那同樣這個右邊圖這是昨天的就是我們的"},{"start":1083.986,"end":1105.118,"text":"我們現在關心的圖並不是只有臺灣周遭,東海、台海、南海整體的現象我們都關心。比方講談到中共穿越東邊出來走宮古水道,可是宮古島的位置,這個石垣島的位置與那國島的位置大家都聽到名字,並不知道在哪裡。"},{"start":1106.462,"end":1131.515,"text":"中共跟菲律賓最近在南海潛在的衝突但並沒有發生軍事衝突而是執法行為的衝突所謂的黃岩島這個先兵礁或者是仁愛礁大家都知道可是位置在哪裡其實在這個圖像上我們都可以把它做出來也就是說透過圖像的整合把所有的現象讓國人"},{"start":1133.677,"end":1133.957,"text":"陳永康議員：陳永康"},{"start":1163.49,"end":1163.73,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":1183.849,"end":1184.069,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":1202.642,"end":1226.845,"text":"我們的行政院內的國土安全辦公室目前是協調我們建議建立起這套其實不難的工具平台它可以顯示了所有的超高壓配電廠變電所那像在右邊這個資料圖上都可以顯示套上衛星圖"},{"start":1228.595,"end":1228.735,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":1251.442,"end":1251.662,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":1270.64,"end":1270.7,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":1284.206,"end":1284.386,"text":"盧森堡 中軌衛星"},{"start":1308.729,"end":1308.789,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":1330.589,"end":1330.629,"text":"陳永康"},{"start":1345.134,"end":1345.274,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":1373.916,"end":1398.24,"text":"他國的演習周遭的環境包括重大的新聞及時顯示充分運用共同圖像融合略過表層現象交叉比對信息圖像避免錯判勿帶風向強迫掌握情勢真相平站狀況要全程掌握"},{"start":1400.776,"end":1400.856,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":1418.018,"end":1418.238,"text":"政務委員：陳永康"},{"start":1440.512,"end":1450.341,"text":"作戰中心跟指揮中心我們用的資料庫與戰線顯示圖必須要整合而不是各單位使用各單位的"},{"start":1451.75,"end":1479.652,"text":"我今天主要的問政是強化這個韌性包括微波包括衛星包括海嵐那這個部分是不是請速發部的部長給我們做一點說明報告委員那個衛星的部分就地軌衛星我們今年預計會建置大概773個地面站那到今天為止已經有一半差不多370幾個站已經ready可以用"},{"start":1480.693,"end":1503.799,"text":"在過去這些戰已經發生一些效用比如說在0403的地震已經發揮一些效果這個東西我們現在也是分布到全省各地包括這次颱風我們有部件在屏東跟高雄跟台南都有一些還不錯的結果所以這個目前是有在運作"},{"start":1504.817,"end":1519.926,"text":"微星本來就是我們一直在佈建的包括跟離島都有微星站的通信也都有安全的使用跟開通報告委員我在英國我自己試過OneWeb 微星"},{"start":1520.606,"end":1520.906,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":1535.452,"end":1535.832,"text":"國防部長陳永康"},{"start":1562.47,"end":1562.91,"text":"谷部長谷部長"},{"start":1585.363,"end":1599.838,"text":"跟委員報告,委員的指導這個有關通訊指管的韌性的重要性這是國際一向是非常重視的那我們跟數碼部也一直維持一個密切的一個溝通"},{"start":1604.013,"end":1622.056,"text":"在通訊的這個韌性的加強上面一直想要設防努力那當然我們自己也有我們國安部本身通訊執管的韌性那跟有盟國家之間所建構那這個部分比較機敏所以就可能不適宜在這裡做說明"},{"start":1623.397,"end":1639.932,"text":"但是呢就可以說明的部分當然就是我們要跟數碼部那麼來全力的來配合來達成我們整個全政府的到時候維持這個政府持續運作的一個通訊的一個韌性的維護這個也是必要的"},{"start":1641.613,"end":1670.408,"text":"另外那個共同圖像部分希望部長再指導共同圖像的部分委員指導的非常正確就是說我們應該要有一個全政府的共同圖像但是我在這邊跟委員分享就是說這個全政府的共同圖像還是要區分出機敏跟非機敏的部分你不可能將我們這個部分的共同圖像跟所有跨部會都做分享那這樣的話我們就沒有這個機敏的可能性"},{"start":1671.028,"end":1686.598,"text":"所以在要建構一個全政府的共同圖像而且這個全政府共同圖像是具有韌性的那這個是非常重要的但是哪些是屬於全跨部會之間應該要可以共同分享的然後讓決策者來"},{"start":1688.059,"end":1690.343,"text":"這件事情我們應該要來努力的事情"},{"start":1702.679,"end":1729.335,"text":"好 謝謝那我們請院長最後給我們一點指導謝謝委員上一次 上個會期到現在兩次的總質詢都聆聽到委員非常精闢專業的而且是圖文非常精緻那麼我相信也給國防部很大的一個衝擊我們的設備我們的準備也應該要超越這個才是國家的水準那剛剛委員談到內容相當的豐富至少對我來講有兩個觀念"},{"start":1730.959,"end":1744.786,"text":"是在委員提出的這個論點當中我感覺到就是第一個我們必須承擔風險但是選擇一個較佳的結果我想這個政治上也是一樣軍事上也是一樣另外一個我們在講去中心化"},{"start":1745.765,"end":1765.94,"text":"但更重要的是這個責任全責下送之後有沒有能力來承擔得起這個去中心化之後是不是所有的單位可以再承擔得起以應各種緊急或是需要之所需我想這個都是我們在訓練過程當中甚至在演練過程當中必須去加強的"},{"start":1766.946,"end":1779.041,"text":"所以我想這一套非常精緻的這個圖文跟上一次我也請國務部長在會後再跟委員請教上次一樣我想我們都會受教很多那麼能夠聽到這樣的事情我也認為"},{"start":1781.383,"end":1781.844,"text":"陳永康委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:15:29 - 16:45:34","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155065","gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（16時15分）院長、各位立院同仁、各位政府首長，大家好，各位媒體朋友好。有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：卓院長，你好。本席今天的問政是聚焦在動態的國際情勢變化，以及我們國安情勢如何做一個適度的反應，實際上是提供政府比較精進的一些做法與建言。","從本席出示的這個圖，可以看出來我們要看的實際上是一個大格局的視野，而不是聚焦在一個純粹島嶼的臺灣。現在國際情勢變化萬千，面對這個動態的局勢變化，對任何一個國家的國安問題都是一個挑戰。如果沒有一個完整的構想、架構，各位可以從這個圖上看出來，因為詭譎難測的國際情勢，比如說俄烏戰爭到今天已經打了950天，以哈戰爭也打了一年多，馬上可能爆發規模升高的伊朗和以色列的軍事衝突，都不是我們能夠完全掌握的。","因為訊息甚多，來源不同，展示的報告方式不同，媒體也不同，所以我這邊強烈建議先建立一個共同圖像的平台。我們可以用比較進步的高科技，比方講，用GIS、UPGIS，然後把國際的圖經過校正，涵蓋國際圖、區域圖、亞太圖、臺灣周遭圖。因為臺海問題連結到東海、南海，它並不是單一的現象，同樣，在亞洲的問題包括朝鮮半島、日本、南海周邊，統統是一環扣一環，所以我們要有一個宏觀的看法，但是也要有微觀、細緻的掌握，從上到下有明確的政策指導，從下往上有力道的支撐、能量的展示，這要同步作為。","因此這張圖就是告訴我們，為什麼基於國家安全，我們想到了社會堅韌、民心安定、經濟繁榮、軍事堅強、臺海和平。這裡面包括了國安的幾個重要環節：政治面、外交面、經濟面、軍事面，這都跟兩岸相關；另外，有關能源、社會、醫療、產業，它都是基建相關。因此在這個條件下，有一個完整的國家安全戰略，透過跨部會的橫向協調，可以在比較短的時間做出一個正確性比較高的判斷。","在這個環境下，我們不只是做風險控管、情勢控管、衝突的控管，也要做到災害的管制、災損的管制，在這個底下，我們看到由層峰指導，有國安會、有行政院的各位同仁，尤其是兩岸跟國防、外交，這是總統直接督導，即便在這個下面我們成立了三個委員會：國家氣候變遷對策委員會、全社會防衛韌性委員會、健康台灣推動委員會，它跟各個部會是有關聯性的，但是因為它不是編制內的，而是任務納編的，所以因為人事的調動或是因為選舉的結果，難免會產生變化，而就是造成了一個不是延續性的成果，即便最近報紙上登出來了，有關全社會防衛韌性有五個主軸，但是這個主軸上面的交集支撐以及下面的基礎設施哪些還要強化，我們還要看到政府持續把細節告知。","國際形勢變化萬千，風險是常存在，但是如果因為國際的關係或是政策面，這兩者加上模糊、不確定，我們就會遇到危機的展示，所以萬國咸寧，惟變所適，心繫臺灣，行穩致遠，這個惟變所適就是要預應，基於國家安全戰略，我們做一個積極性的預防措施。那麼我們的國家領導人目前有這三個委員會，可是因為我們還是缺乏一個法制性的國家安全戰略，因此在某些狀況下，各位可以看到資源的分配不均，策略不容易同調，跨部會的協調如果不是層峰或者是院長出來召集，就會產生一些困難，我們也希望在這個裡面，政務委員跨部會協調要扮演更積極的角色。努力未必能夠同步，政策難以連續，最主要是強調國家安全戰略是指導各部會在風險的不確定性下預作計畫，對模糊的態勢要妥善的預應，而不是等待事件發生再做反應。尤其是全世界在各種專案裡面沒有最佳方案，只有妥適方案，因此我們是在最佳跟最壞中間要找到一個「可以接受較佳」的預期結果。因此我們在推動國家安全戰略是希望基於國家的安全、社會的繁榮，民主法治能夠持續下去，這個不分政黨大家共同的努力。","所以各位可以看到，在國內的情勢下，影響它的包括經濟穩定、社會韌性、能源保障、資訊安全、人口結構、官僚體系、政黨形式、傳媒輿論、宗教文化、環境保護、國會結構，統統有關聯。因此立法院的委員會，其實它並不是單一的對象，尤其是在國際情勢上面，區域威脅、友盟變質、國際組織、國際法律、資訊安全、氣候變遷、能源短缺、重大的國際性傳染病都影響。這兩個不同的輸入產生了綜合評估國家安全戰略的重要效能，比方講兩岸的情勢、社會的韌性，這中間包含了國防、外交、經濟、能源、治安、人口政策。最後國家安全戰略是什麼？促進繁榮，確保民主，強化安全。","因此，在目前政府沒有頒布國家安全戰略的這個情況下，我們面對一些要克服的困難，預期目標是政府發布國家安全戰略，確保國家的安全，維持臺海和平的穩定。我們有行動的重心，也有執行的手段，這個東西都可以透過跨部會的溝通，我們持續強化，讓它做得更周延，資源有限、時間有限、人力有限，如何在比較短的時間內，我們做出一個控管情勢，讓政府更穩定地向前邁進，國家安全戰略是不可或缺的一個重要支柱。","在兩年前的國慶，政府團隊表示我們要建立強韌型的國家，四大韌性已經講了，經濟產業、社會安全網、國防戰力、民主自由體制，這是一個很好的目標，但是怎麼樣去努力達成呢？在今年總統就職滿月的時候，也強調了全社會防衛韌性，強化國防、民生、災防、民主四大韌性，同時面對不對稱作戰應具備的戰略思維，諸多牽動主動權的變數是受國外國際情勢的影響，那我們要建立營造國安環境建設性的關係，民生與國防的合一，這個就是國家韌性的關鍵因素。所以國防跟民生這兩個不要切割，在國家安全戰略裡面可以相互包容、可以做協調，而不是單獨聚焦在國防上你要如何軍購、如何建立你的防衛能力，而這邊如何維持不斷水、不斷電、不斷網、能源能進，這個要相互支持，作為一個海洋國家，海洋戰略其實是國防戰略的一環，那麼海上交通線的維護、海纜的維持、衛星的通訊，這個都是息息相關的。","同時也提到了建構高韌性的軍事戰力，這個威脅是精準打擊與網路攻擊的混合性戰術，對面是日以繼夜的提升威懾的能力，對我們來講在承平時期，灰色地帶的行動是一個消耗戰，短期內並不想製造一個衝突，但是他用什麼呢？用網路攻擊、用錯誤的訊息帶動，消耗你的研析人力。另外，在越境飛機或是過中線或是環繞下，消耗你的戰備妥善率，因為重要的裝備，很多軍售裝備的廠機維修，我們還是要送回美國去，像F-16的重要配件，這一去一回就是一年，如果持續消耗下去，那我們就要想到有沒有強化替代的方案。","另外，我們在原則、核心、戰術、戰具下，未來的趨勢就是所謂的無人化，可是無人化的系統並不是載台本身，而是你的通信指管以及所謂的接戰規定、交戰規則（ROE）。這些是分層負責，每個層級都不一樣的，後面我再向大家做一個敘述的方法，這個是參考美軍，從白宮National  command authority，就是美國總統、國安會跟國防部以及國務院，他們如何把他的政策指導下授管理到印太司令部，再管理到駐日美軍、駐韓美軍，甚至海上的艦隊，分層負責、權責下授，但是他們有一個共同的基礎就是共同圖像，也就是說，從高層看，到區域看，到基層看，它的聯合作戰圖像到戰術畫面上下互通，在這種情況下，有確定、明確的交戰規則，分層負責，權責下授，這個叫做Decentralized，不是去中心化，它是權責下授。","最糟糕的狀況下，就是某些情況下的通訊不通，他的下級部隊知道行為準則，該負的責任，承擔的責任、任務，而不要再請示，所以這個圖像可以看出來了，COP共同圖像（Common Operating Picture），CTP（Common Tactical  Picture），它跟目前我們所謂的聯合情監偵C4ISR的data link是一貫性的，從上到下，從下到上，所以我們現在可以用高清的解析把臺灣的重要設施、民生設施，用資料庫的方法全部幫你標記出來，因此在承平跟戰時，也就是說作戰中心跟災防中心很多的基本資料庫是可以相通的，利用這種框架互相分享，可以降低人力的負荷，這是一個概念指導。","現在我們國防報告書裡面在講的去中心化，其實它不是目標，它是中間的一個手段，也就是說，當你的指管部分通訊能力中斷的時候，你的下一級單位根據平時的任務賦予跟作戰計畫原本的參與感，橫向協調不斷，雖然上下有些溝通中斷，但是他能夠承擔這個責任，這個並不是去中心化，而是分散配置，權責下授。它是一種方法，它並不是說我們的層峰衡山指揮所的功能就要降低了，所以從這個觀念是建立一個完整的戰場環境的掌控，透過比較高科技的資料鏈路分享。","俄烏戰爭打到今天是953天，可是一般人都講烏克蘭的經驗或者是加薩的經驗，我們該去學習，我們同意這種看法，但狀況不同的是，烏克蘭領土面積是臺灣的16.7倍，人口只有2.3倍，大家都不知道我們的人口密度是8.7比1，可是現在烏克蘭已經有1,000萬人到歐洲去了，所以真正我們的人口密度是10比1，而我們的人均電力消耗是烏克蘭的3.4到3.5倍。","看看這個圖，從5月開始，它是一個動態的、每天在跑，如果我們有一個共同圖像，我們去看一下9月11日開始的烏東戰場，也就是烏克蘭占領的那一小塊，可是真正在頓涅茨克、盧甘斯克這個作戰的範圍，兩個臺灣都塞進去了，我們能夠把那個例子套進來嗎？不行的。成功的經驗我們當然要學習，但是並不是百分之百的可以複製，而它付出的慘痛教訓，我們要避免發生。這裡面包括烏克蘭部隊的旅級單位都已經重整兩次了，因為它的指管鏈路是受美國 Starlink的提供，從西部的指揮所到前線它必須權責下授，因此烏克蘭是說去中心化，但是在以色列跟加薩走廊的部分，以色列是完全掌握。各位看，這個是以色列的加薩走廊，在這種情況下，以色列就沒有所謂的去中心化，所以我們在這兩個不同的戰場環境下，我們學習人家成功的經驗，但是不是完全複製，而它犯的錯誤，我們不要付第二次的學費。","各位可以從校正過的圖像很清楚地看到，臺灣在這，烏克蘭在這，可是現在伊朗打以色列在這個位置。透過GIS整合共同圖像加上資料庫，我們就可以把發生事情的地理位置、時間、物件、行動做一個整合，最後我們可以做一個比較客觀的分析判斷。這個是9月22號中共打導彈，因為它的落點是在大溪地的飛航情報區，所以它有通知法國，但是因為它的導彈彈道高度是1,200公里，幾乎已經進到我們的OneWeb衛星的軌道，所以它必須向國際衛星組織回報。我們再從另外一個圖來看，這張圖是有座標、經緯度跟落點，當然這是根據公情，所以這是它的彈道高度，把這種圖像跨部會分享，在我們對國際事務的反應上，可以提供一個比較客觀的看法，而不必被部分名嘴、媒體帶風向，說我們掌握不住，或是它主導多少，這個是可以分享的一個資料。","同樣，這個右邊的圖是昨天颱風環繞的，我們現在關心的圖，並不是只有臺灣周遭，東海、臺海、南海，整體的現象，我們都關心。比方講，談到中共穿越東邊出來走宮古水道，可是宮古島的位置、石垣島的位置、與那國島的位置，大家都聽到名字卻不知道在哪裡。中共跟菲律賓最近在南海有潛在的衝突，但並沒有發生軍事衝突，而是執法行為的衝突。所謂的黃岩島，仙賓礁或者是仁愛礁，大家都知道，可是位置在哪裡？其實在這個圖像上，我們都可以把它做出來。也就是說，透過圖像的整合，把所有的現象讓國人、跨部會的同仁同步分享，做建言的時候、做政策決定的時候可以縮短決策的時間。","像右邊的這張圖，我們陸軍同仁到現在還在用公元2000年的UTM座標圖，目前已經開始做數據化，但是還要花一點時間，可是即便數據化完成了，這個圖還要跟海圖、航圖共同校正，也就是說，陸軍的長官所看的事情不能侷限於本島。比方講，美國賣給我們的海馬斯火箭M142，它的有效射程30公里、70公里，甚至到300公里，在陸軍運用上，它的目標分配、目標獲得是不是跟海軍濱海作戰指揮部的魚叉飛彈要共同校對？不然變成重複打的，或者是漏掉，所以圖像的校正、重複、重疊運用是一個很有效的工具。","同樣，這個圖上的資料很多是來自台電，但是我們行政院內的國土安全辦公室目前是協調，我們建議建立起這套其實不難的工具平臺，它可以顯示所有的所謂超高壓配電場、變電所，像在右邊這個資料，圖上都可以顯示，套上衛星圖，套上345千伏、161千伏變電所的位置，如果哪裡跳電了，可以顯示，我們甚至可以把臺北市多少座變電所，還有超高壓的，這個在板橋，都可以顯示。這個可以顯示跟顯示醫院的病床、消防體系是同一種工具的概念，它不只是數字，它是位置。這個東西我是建議我們要加快腳步，提升我們的應變能力，可以分享很多的有效情報，包括海纜的位置。","我們海纜的通訊量是最大的，微波次之，衛星通訊是做備援系統，所以我們政府要確保海纜通訊及低軌衛星的有效應急支援。當然我們跟OneWeb簽了低軌衛星的部分，國防部也和數發部有分享，那個細節我們再另外討論，即便現在它另外跟盧森堡簽了三個中軌衛星。這個低軌、中軌在這邊轉，都可以顯示出我們的通訊有一定的能量，但是我們內部還是要瞭解我們的限制因素，有些東西持續強化，但是強化功能的同時，頻寬、通訊速度這些都是要額外投資的，這個我們瞭解政府，我們希望在這個上面持續建立穩健的強化能力。","這個圖就是颱風的系統，這是今天早上6點鐘的，實際上，你背後看到的是海上的商船都避開這塊區塊，這個東西都可以直接到災防中心。","最後一張圖就是我們作戰及救災可以利用平臺共同分享的，做一個整合的、虛擬式的戰情顯示，包括我們國安的重要軸向、他國的演習、周遭的環境，包括重大的新聞即時顯示。充分運用共同圖像，融合濾過表層現象，交叉比對信息圖像，避免錯判誤帶風向，強化掌握情勢真相，平戰狀況要全程掌握。所以我們建立完整的即時共同圖像，甚至可以模擬、假設我們軍演或是對方演習的想法、動態，這個時候都可以跨部會的分享。最主要就是像所有的電網如果故障了，在哪裡？可以讓每個部會首長知道，而不須要用打電話去紀錄，這是一個現在的工具可以很快強化功能的，我們建議也是能夠邀請政務委員來做跨部會的強化協調。作戰中心與指揮中心用的資料庫與戰情顯示圖必須要整合，而不是各單位使用各單位的。","我今天主要的問政是強化韌性，包括微波，包括衛星，包括海纜，這個部分是不是請數發部的部長給我們做一點說明？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，衛星的部分也就是低軌衛星，我們今年預計會建置773個地面站，到今天為止，已經有一半差不多三百七十幾個站已經ready可以用，過去這些站已經發生一些效用，比如在0403的地震已經發揮一些效果，這個東西我們現在也是分布到全省各地，包括這次颱風，我們有布建在屏東、高雄跟臺南都有一些還不錯的結果。這個目前是有在運作，衛星本來就是我們一直在布建的，包括跟離島都有衛星站的通信，也都有安全的使用跟開通。"],["陳委員永康：我跟你報告，我在英國自己試過OneWeb衛星，利用我的電腦直接接到旅行車的天線上去，下來接到地面站，再透過海纜，我可以看臺灣的即時新聞。因為我們現在地面站這段還沒有克服，地面站目前用的是泰國的、日本的……"],["黃部長彥男：是關島……"],["陳委員永康：對，還有關島，未來我們希望地面站能夠建置，當然這個在合約談判裡面還要強化。另外就是有一些跟國防安全分享關於國防的部分，我希望顧部長能夠了解我們國軍的需求，因為有些東西跟數發部當初構建的、談的功能未必是相同的，所以還要有部分內部的溝通，這部分請顧部長指導我們的同仁在衛星需求上面跟數發部可能要做更進一步的協商跟溝通，當然站在國家安全的立場，我們是全力支持的。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，委員指導有關通訊指管韌性的重要性，其實國軍一向是非常重視的，我們跟數發部也一直維持密切的溝通，在通訊的韌性加強上面，一直想要設法努力，當然我們自己也有國防部本身通訊指管的韌性，跟友盟國家之間所建構的，因為這個部分比較機敏，所以可能不適宜在這裡說明。"],["陳委員永康：是的。"],["顧部長立雄：但是就可以說明的部分，當然就是我們要跟數發部全力配合，達成整個全政府的……到時候維持這個政府持續運作的通訊韌性的維護，這個也是必要的。"],["陳委員永康：另外有關共同圖像部分，希望部長再指導我們國軍同仁……"],["顧部長立雄：有關共同圖像的部分，委員指導的非常正確，就是說我們應該要有全政府的共同圖像，但是我在這邊跟委員分享，這個全政府的共同圖像還是要區分出機敏跟非機敏的部分，不可能將我們這個部分的共同圖像跟所有跨部會都做分享，這樣的話，我們就沒有機敏的可能性……"],["陳委員永康：這個我了解，當然！"],["顧部長立雄：所以要建構一個全政府的共同圖像，而且這個全政府的共同圖像是具有韌性的，這個是非常重要的，但是哪些是屬於跨部會之間應該可以共同分享的，然後讓決策者充分的理解，這個也很重要，究竟怎麼區隔出機敏的部分，把它切割出來，然後只讓某些可以揭密的人知道，這是我們應該要來努力的一件事情。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝，請院長最後給我們一點指導。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，從上個會期到現在，兩次的總質詢都聆聽到委員非常精闢、專業的發言，而且圖文非常精緻，我相信也給國防部很大的衝擊，我們的設備、我們的準備也應該要超越這個才是國家的水準。剛剛委員談到的內容相當豐富，至少對我來講，有兩個觀念是在委員所提出的這個論點當中：第一個，我們必須承擔風險，但是選擇一個較佳的結果，我想在政治上也是一樣、軍事上也是一樣。另外，我們在講去中心化，但更重要的是權責下授之後，有沒有能力承擔得起？去中心化之後，是不是所有單位可以再承擔得起，以應各種緊急之所需？我想這個都是我們在訓練過程當中、甚至在演練過程當中必須去加強的。所以我想這一套非常精緻的圖文，跟上一次一樣，我也請顧部長在會後再跟委員請教，我想我們都會受教很多。能夠聽到這樣的聲音，我也認為知己知彼不一定百戰百勝，但至少知己知彼之後，我們才能知道自助人助，我們自己要做更多的努力，我想整個國軍、整個國安系統都會再朝這個方向多多地努力，非常謝謝委員的指教。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝部長，謝謝院長以及各位今天在座的同仁，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝指導。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來請登記第54號李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra 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那麼他就要去做地質專看等等最後呢 減負一個安全評估報告 大概要60萬元"},{"start":258.447,"end":287.121,"text":"接下來他為了要去處理建物的合法我們原住民的房子您可以看一下像這種房子恐怕都只能用結構安全鑑定每年要2萬塊現在也會有污水法他污水處理要處理10萬塊他要面臨他要先處理他的違建罰款6萬以上然後像我們這一些房子他可能要用地方還要處理簡易建築的一個管理辦法"},{"start":287.961,"end":288.922,"text":"委員長 這樣的一間房子"},{"start":303.965,"end":327.896,"text":"就是我們很多原住民看得到的很簡易的房子為什麼他會變成很簡易的房子因為他是賺了10萬塊他就拿來蓋10萬塊他今天家裡的孩子在外面賺了50萬他又多蓋了50萬所以這樣子修修補補縫縫補補的房子如果我們要補照可以看一下PPT要130萬要130萬我想請教院長值嗎"},{"start":334.992,"end":348.977,"text":"他會願意去合法嗎兩點跟委員簡單的報告我過去在臺北市議會的時候就看過在臺北京郊包括南港一帶地區就很多原住民朋友住在那個地方居住環境確實是很需要改善"},{"start":349.597,"end":370.524,"text":"第二點曾主委我跟他徵詢第一次請他來原民會服務的時候我就跟他談過原住民長期在都市的邊緣或者是在山區裡面的居住的問題土地的問題我們要想辦法謝謝院長立刻講到了所以剛剛談到的這些個內容現象我覺得內政部應該也會有很清楚的一個方向那我就繼續講下去"},{"start":372.225,"end":399.347,"text":"因為我們是希望內政部既然談到內政部像這種環境敏感地區查詢規費6000塊其實就可以不用了嘛或者是像地質敏感地區的安全評估報告我跟院長報告幾乎啦所有原住民的部落都是住在環境敏感地區啦那你說叫每一戶去鑽幾個洞做地質鑽探有必要嗎那我覺得這個政府可以就整個部落來做這個60萬也可以免了"},{"start":399.887,"end":419.297,"text":"那麼至於我們這一些剩下的大概要70萬的關於建物合法化的部分他要面臨剛才我講的水保計畫結構安全鑑定污水處理違規違建的罰款還有這些取得建造的這些建築師畫圖光是蓋一層樓大概就要15到20萬那我覺得"},{"start":422.665,"end":443.705,"text":"即便政府幫忙處理了地用的合法這些建築的合法的部分要70萬我一樣要請院長來想一想有多少戶做得到很難那我覺得面對這種歷史承諾所造成的我們要來做合法不需要去分公司"},{"start":444.608,"end":461.943,"text":"我覺得我看到一個很棒的特例像我每次去烏來他們都在炒因為他們是水源特定保護區他們面對土地的限制利用強度是更強的他們已經炒了好幾十年但是我看到這個北水特分署"},{"start":462.563,"end":486.81,"text":"他很有擔當因為他們現在開始要訂定一個原保地新建自用住宅的一個審查要點讓他們終於可以來新建可以來重建改建這些自用住宅他們怎麼做他們編定一筆經費委託協助區公所去成立這些建築污水水保的一個服務團協助減輕他們的負擔"},{"start":489.711,"end":516.613,"text":"那另外我知道的是內政部國土署之前跟原民會合作也有一個所謂的特定區域計畫就是在泰雅族堅實鄉的鄭希寶斯馬庫斯我知道的是他們告訴我說已經協助200多個用戶用地合法化了所以我覺得政府除了有心其實很多的事情是可以做得到的那我現在是希望說讓"},{"start":519.437,"end":539.863,"text":"院長瞭解一下其實我常常很感慨像日本他們的國土面積是我們台灣的十倍但是我們的高山的3000公尺以上是日本的十倍也就是他們是我們的十分之一所以我們來看地圖可以看得到"},{"start":540.743,"end":560.465,"text":"我們其實我們的國土長得很不一樣它是很多高山而且是直送的高山可是長期以來我們面對我們的法令的時候都是透過像中國的日本的沿用這些大陸法系沿用像德國這一些法規"},{"start":561.286,"end":589.805,"text":"其實我們台灣應該要有自己的法規自己的法律自己的想法我們不應該這樣子縫縫補補那樣的衣服穿了也不好看也不舒服不合身但是我們就是很感慨有一個地圖可以秀一下您看一下那個地方長的是什麼呢其實就是他們的一個農耕用地我希望那個影片要秀出來像這個農耕用地"},{"start":591.716,"end":613.182,"text":"這個是我們100多年前的農耕用地院長您知道這個在哪裡嗎左邊是菲律賓右邊是我們的山地門鄉100多年前的山地門鄉跟現在的菲律賓是不是長得一模一樣只是顏色不一樣這個代表什麼"},{"start":614.585,"end":641.922,"text":"因為菲律賓他有尊重在地人的傳統智慧去利用他們的耕作方式結果現在成為世界奇蹟我們面對日本人來國民政府來不處理我們的土地的問題在這一段時間愛怎麼用就怎麼用讓很多有經濟這些想法的人來到山上破壞了不是原住民破壞的"},{"start":643.479,"end":669.105,"text":"我們幾千年來就是這樣子使用土地非常的可惜這個就是因為我們沒有適用的法律來規範我們怎麼利用不同地區的土地所以我在這邊我希望說原民會一定要有這樣的擔當協助我們這些14萬動戶的族人未來面對建物合法化因為土地合法化內政部要做了"},{"start":670.168,"end":693.837,"text":"但是我希望原民會一定要來做一個中長程的計畫分階段的編列經費來協助我們的族人那我也希望內政部也能夠定定清楚的目標跟期程針對105年5月以前的既有建築105年5月以後的建築未來預備興建的這些研議一個用地合法化的策略"},{"start":694.477,"end":714.21,"text":"那也希望善用國土永續基金來訂定計畫來編列經費那最重要的是原本今年1月應該要出來的原住民族土地使用管制規則那個是國土計畫法第23條當時允諾原住民最了解自己的土地要怎麼用允諾"},{"start":715.091,"end":742.788,"text":"我們可以自己來制定但是我知道的是好幾進好幾退為什麼還是一樣觀念的問題沒有辦法兜攏那我們是希望說都要上路了應該要趕快的公佈讓我們原住民族土地使用管制規則能夠讓大家清楚的知道我們未來可以怎麼使用我們的土地所以我在這邊希望院長能夠同意是不是可以找一個行政院政務委員來做一個任務編組"},{"start":743.929,"end":768.597,"text":"報告委員 這個土地使用管制規則應該這個月內政部還在積極的有延長協議的會議當中我是希望能夠就同意原民會啦我可不可以跟委員補充一下齁您所講的部分我講成功的案例啦在9月24的新聞裡面泰巴郎的全台第一例是國土計劃法下面一個鄉村地區整體規劃已經有妥善的土地規劃"},{"start":769.437,"end":771.917,"text":"105年5月以前的既有建築物全部適合政府吸收規規費5800元"},{"start":802.465,"end":819.433,"text":"國土計劃法在每一個縣市尤其有原住民鄉鎮的這個功能分居土要送上來那我想你也非常清楚像新竹市花蓮縣他們已經陸陸續續都送上來這裡面的都有原住民的部落好 謝謝那土地利用的部分完成建物合法 園民會"},{"start":820.353,"end":828.198,"text":"各位委員報告我們這裡一定我們10月7號就會跟內政部再開第三次的這個會議希望能夠站在原住民的立場"},{"start":829.217,"end":853.612,"text":"讓原住民的土地能夠實用得更好我們會努力的拜託委員剛剛部長所說的那些內容政府會來解說的你可以更新一下這個內容跟原住民的朋友報告國土計劃法我希望能夠依據聯合國他的一個FPIC事前之前同意原則持續的要求各部會要跟族人揭露資訊這樣可以嗎"},{"start":855.046,"end":856.748,"text":"總而言之我們上路已經一年半了"},{"start":870.928,"end":898.98,"text":"但是上路以來取得合法錄音證的是0完全沒有那為什麼會完全沒有因為他申請合法也是很難包括我剛剛講的查詢的規費6000取得建造的每年2萬水保檢疫的30到60萬不等還有他的污水處理20到30萬不等然後呢很多人都跟我講說算了他已經花了130萬還是不行算了為什麼"},{"start":899.6,"end":925.938,"text":"因為我們的部會不同調光是帳篷砧板這種可以移動的我們一樣的市府公文問觀光署問農業部回答完全不一樣我們光是因為設施到底要不要一定要位在環境敏感地區我們的交通部內政部講的也不一樣所以到目前是零所以我希望這個部分 院長你可以責成政委來協助做跨部會好不好"},{"start":927.139,"end":933.209,"text":"推動觀光的政策是我們的重要的施政目標我請政委來協調好 謝謝院長 謝謝各位首長 謝謝主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:49:05 - 16:04:44","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155064","gazette":{"lineno":407,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（15時49分）謝謝主席，有請行政院院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長好。今天來到這裡想要就一些原住民遇到很難合法的問題，來跟院長交流、溝通。院長，有關明年即將要上路的國土計畫法，政府有承諾，針對105年5月1號以前非合法用地的這些建築物，要讓它合法。我們等了幾十年，引頸期盼、非常的期待，但是有一些問題是顯而易見的，可能要在這邊先做個溝通。","其實原住民為什麼會有這些大量的非法建物？這是有歷史的沉痾，日本人來的時候，就以山林國有這樣一個政策名目把所有土地都取走，除了這些具有經濟價值的土地之外，留下一些給原住民蓋家屋或者是農耕。國民政府來了之後，其實在1974年以前，對於這些位在非都市計畫土地的區域，並沒有什麼法規限制；簡單來講，就是愛怎麼用、愛怎麼蓋，就怎麼用；直到1974年訂定了區域計畫法，這個時候其實有一點匆促，因為沒有落實調查，也沒有去考量各個不同地方它的土地使用現況跟合理性，所以就直接編定用地，那會造成什麼呢？像賴總統過去的祖厝，像礦區那邊的房子或者是像原住民位在原保地的這些建物，一夕之間都變成了非法，這個非法有什麼樣的問題？因為非法，建物也沒有辦法拿去抵押貸款，甚至是位在原保地上的這些公有建物也都是違法，像是鄉公所的行政大樓、學校，甚至是部落的集會所，這一些也都是違建，可是原民會有編列經費讓他們能夠去補照，可是私人用地怎麼辦？所以這個時候國土計畫就是讓我們合法化的一個希望。問題來了！現在我們知道的是，內政部給我們數據，大概有14萬棟的原住民房子是蓋在非建地上面，這一些我們也要謝謝，其實國土署很認真、很努力，因為針對這些105年5月1號公告以前的既有建物，可以透過國土計畫的國土功能分區來處理，那105年以後的呢？也可以用原住民的土管規則，以及一生一次這樣的規定，也可以來處理，甚至是未來我們要蓋房子，也可以透過鄉村規劃。","問題是這些工具都很好，但是我要跟院長報告，我們可以預期沒辦法有成效，為什麼？因為這14萬棟的這些族人，他即將要面臨的有幾大問題？第一，他的地用要合法；第二，他的建物要合法，他要去做水保的合法、消防的合法。我們來看一下地用的合法，地質敏感，他要去查詢，規費要6,000塊，如果它真的位在地質敏感地區，那麼就要去做地質鑽探等等，最後檢附安全評估報告大概要60萬元。接下來他為了要去處理建物的合法，您可以看一下我們原住民的房子，像這種房子恐怕都只能用結構安全鑑定，每年要2萬塊，現在也會有污水法，污水處理要10萬塊，他要面臨先處理違建罰款6萬以上，然後像這一些房子可能地方還要處理簡易建築管理辦法。那麼面對水保的合法，光是簡易水保或水保就要10到30萬不等，消防的合法不包含工程，大概就需要用到4萬塊。","院長，這樣的一間房子就是很多原住民看得到的很簡易的房子，為什麼它會變成很簡易的房子？因為他是賺了10萬塊，就拿10萬塊來蓋，今天他家裡的孩子在外面賺了50萬，就又多蓋了50萬；所以這樣子修修補補、縫縫補補的房子，如果要補照，可以看一下PPT，要130萬！要130萬！我想請教院長，值嗎？他會願意去合法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩點跟委員簡單的報告，我過去在臺北市議會的時候，就看過在臺北近郊，包括南港一帶地區，就有很多原住民朋友住在那個地方，居住環境確實是很需要改善。第二點，我第一次請曾主委來原民會服務的時候，我就跟他談過，原住民長期在都市的邊緣或者山區居住的問題、土地的問題，我們要想辦法。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以剛剛談到的這些內容、現象，我覺得內政部應該也會有很清楚的一個方向。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我就繼續講下去，既然談到內政部，像這種環境敏感地區查詢規費6,000塊其實就可以不用了；或者是像地質敏感地區的安全評估報告，我跟院長報告，幾乎所有原住民部落都是位在環境敏感地區，那你叫每一戶去鑽幾個洞做地質鑽探，有必要嗎？我覺得這個政府可以就整個部落來做，這個60萬也可以免了；至於剩下的大概要70萬的關於建物合法化的部分，它要面臨剛才我講的水保計畫、結構安全鑑定、污水處理、違規違建的罰款，還要請建築師畫圖，以便取得建照，光是畫一層樓大概就要15到20萬，即便政府幫忙處理了地用的合法，讓這一些建築合法的部分還要70萬，我一樣要請院長來想一想有多少戶做得到？很難！面對這種歷史沉疴所造成的現象，我們使它合法不需要去分公、私。我看到一個很棒的特例，像我每次去烏來，他們都在吵，因為烏來是水源特定保護區，居民面對的土地限制利用，強度是更強的，他們已經吵了好幾十年了，但是我看到北水特分署很有擔當，因為他們現在開始要訂定一個原保地興建自用住宅審查要點，讓居民終於可以來興建、重建、改建這些自用住宅。他們怎麼做？他們編定一筆經費，委託區公所去成立這些建築污水、水保的服務團，協助減輕他們的負擔。另外我知道的是，內政部國土署之前跟原民會合作，也有一個所謂的特定區域計畫，就是在泰雅族尖石鄉的鎮西堡、司馬庫斯，他們告訴我，已經協助兩百多個用戶用地合法化了，所以我覺得政府只要有心，其實很多事情是可以做得到的，我現在是希望讓院長了解一下。","其實我常常很感慨，像日本的國土面積是臺灣的10倍，但是我們3,000公尺以上的高山是日本的10倍，也就是他們是我們的十分之一，所以我們從地圖可以看得到，其實我們的國土長得很不一樣，我們有很多高山，而且是直聳的高山。可是長期以來，我們面對法令的時候，都是沿用中國、日本、德國這些大陸法系國家的一些法規，其實臺灣應該要有自己的法規、自己的法律、自己的想法，我們不應該這樣縫縫補補，那樣的衣服穿了不好看，也不舒服，因為不合身。這裡有一個地圖可以秀一下，請院長看一下，那個地方就是一個農耕用地，這是我們一百多年前的農耕用地，院長，您知道這個在哪裡嗎？左邊是菲律賓，右邊是我們的三地門鄉，一百多年前的三地門鄉跟現在的菲律賓是不是長得一模一樣，只是顏色不一樣？這個代表什麼？因為菲律賓尊重在地人的傳統智慧，去利用他們的耕作方式，結果現在成為世界奇蹟，而我們面對日本人來、國民政府來，不處理我們土地的問題，在這一段時間愛怎麼用就怎麼用，讓很多有經濟想法的人來到山上，破壞了，不是原住民破壞的。我們幾千年來就是這樣子使用土地的，非常的可惜，這個就是因為沒有適用的法律來規範我們怎麼利用不同地區的土地。所以在這邊我希望，原民會一定要有這樣的擔當，協助我們這14萬棟戶的族人，未來面對建物合法化，因為土地合法化內政部要做了，但是我希望原民會一定要做一個中長程計畫，分階段編列經費來協助我們的族人。","我也希望內政部也能夠訂定清楚的目標跟期程，針對105年5月以前的既有建築、105年5月以後的建築，未來預備興建的這些，研議一個用地合法化的策略，也希望善用國土永續基金來訂定計畫、編列經費。最重要的是，原本今年1月應該要出來的原住民族土地使用管制規則，那個是國土計畫法第二十三條，當時允諾原住民、最了解自己的土地要怎麼用，允諾我們可以自己制定，但是我知道的是好幾進、好幾退，為什麼？還是一樣觀念的問題，沒有辦法兜攏，我們是希望說都要上路了，應該要趕快公布，讓我們原住民族土地使用管制規則，能夠讓大家清楚知道我們未來可以怎麼使用我們的土地。所以我在這邊希望院長能夠同意，是不是可以找一個行政院政務委員來做一個任務編組？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個土地使用管制規則，應該這個月內政部還在積極地有研商協議的會議當中。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，我是希望能夠就同意原民會啦！不要每次……"],["劉部長世芳：我可不可以跟委員補充一下？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["劉部長世芳：您所講的部分，我講成功的案例，在9月24日的新聞裡面，太巴塱的全臺第一例是國土計畫法下面的一個鄉村地區整體規劃，已經有妥善的土地規劃。然後你剛剛有提到，在鎮西堡部分，有兩百多筆土地合法化的部分，這表示原民會還有內政部願意一起來協助做輔導。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，那個部分我倒沒有意見。"],["劉部長世芳：還有你提到，有關於原住民的土地規則的草案部分，免附環境敏感地區的查詢，在105年5月以前的既有建築物，全部是由政府吸收規費5,800元。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：擴大，105年以後的也一樣擴大。"],["劉部長世芳：全部由政府來吸收的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：所以事實上你所提到的，歸根究柢還是說國土計畫法在每一個縣市，尤其有原住民鄉鎮的功能分區圖要送上來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["劉部長世芳：我想你也非常清楚，像新竹市、花蓮縣，他們已經陸陸續續都送上來，這裡面都有原住民的部落。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。那土地利用的部分完成建物合法……"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：原民會。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們這裡一定，我們10月7日就會跟內政部再開第三次會議，希望能夠站在原住民的立場，讓原住民的土地能夠……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：使用得更好，我們會努力的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：拜託委員，剛剛部長所說的那些內容，政府會來協助的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我也希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：你可以更新一下這個內容，跟原住民朋友報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長，您只要承諾我一件事，就是國土計畫法，我希望能夠依據聯合國的FPIC──事前知情同意原則，持續要求各部會要跟族人揭露資訊，這樣可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一直在努力，有在進行這樣的事情。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝您。我剩下一點點的時間，我也是要講另外一個問題，其實小型露營場合法化也是同樣的問題。我就簡單地跟院長報告，總而言之，我們上路已經1年半了，但是上路以來取得合法露營證的是零，完全沒有！那為什麼會完全沒有？因為它申請合法也是很難，包括我剛剛講的查詢規費6,000元、取得建照每年2萬、水保簡易的30到60萬不等，還有它的污水處理20到30萬不等。很多人都跟我講算了，他已經花了130萬還是不行，算了，為什麼？因為我們的部會不同調，光是帳篷、棧板這種可以移動的，我們一樣的市府公文問觀光署、問農業部，回答完全不一樣；光是營位設施到底要不要、一定要位在環境敏感地區，交通部、內政部講的也不一樣，所以到目前是零。因此我希望這個部分，院長，你可以責成政委來協助做跨部會，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，推動觀光政策是我們重要的施政目標。我會請政委協調內政部跟交通部。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝院長、謝謝各部會首長。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關首長的備詢。","報告院會，現在我們休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢。現在休息。","休息（16時4分）","繼續開會（16時15分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐富癸","陳菁徽","林宜瑾","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳永康","李昆澤","涂權吉","張智倫"],"page_start":33,"meetingDate":["2024-10-04"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00002","1137701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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147.591,"end":161.524,"text":"首先我想委員也清楚臺灣應該是唯一有颱風架的一個有法定機關來宣布的我們鄰近國家甚至美國包括日本都沒有政府機關來宣布有颱風架"},{"start":163.366,"end":186.097,"text":"舉例中香港是有一個八號風球 八號球一出來 大家大家都 現在他也是日本是交由公司 團體 學校 依照各個需要來處理那我們來看 我們在安全跟災損之中我們可能有些人是選擇安全的 所以認為放假是好的可是在那些很辛苦要工作 每天要靠一筆薪水來掙"},{"start":187.498,"end":187.979,"text":"所以院長怎麼想呢?"},{"start":209.58,"end":226.196,"text":"那過去將近30年來臺灣都屬於地方政府來決定但我覺得現在我們有很好的科技氣象署中央氣象署應該可以用科技來提供更正確的資料給地方政府這一次這個颱風很怪異走得很慢路線很怪而且真的是"},{"start":226.817,"end":230.398,"text":"所以這樣聽起來的話以後這個放假不放假颱風天的標準不會改變我們希望用科技的精確的"},{"start":255.31,"end":257.095,"text":"講到科技就是說氣象局"},{"start":258.368,"end":284.087,"text":"氣象局從前幾天開始說這個天翻地覆會破紀錄到最後不斷的修正變化就好像是孫悟空的72變一樣變得大家莫衷於事就是我們的預算裡面現在科技那麼發達難道沒有辦法很精準的來告訴大家雨有多大風有多強嗎我們一年的預算花在氣象局花多少錢"},{"start":285.207,"end":300.474,"text":"報告委員如果您身上跟我一樣有氣象署這幾天當中一直傳過來經過這個應變中心傳過來的資訊來看氣象署的預測是接近你相當準確的甚至跟其他國家比較起來我們的路線等等是相當準精準的"},{"start":301.214,"end":322.919,"text":"這個部長可以再說一個說明很簡單的話老百姓人民就要謝謝你阿有些人說問題我們看到眼睛看到的媒體ABC台進香標價A講說小小的B就要往上加阿明明水淹一點點那個角度即使躺一點"},{"start":323.581,"end":329.143,"text":"這一次有一些人說AI比較準但實際上我們看最後的數值氣象署的數值是比AI還要準一些"},{"start":347.409,"end":361.378,"text":"那有些說中國的比台灣的準,其實最後印證起來氣象署還是比中國的還準你一年的預算花多少錢?一年預算花多少錢?預算啊?對,總預算的預算,氣象署氣象署是不是今年是七十幾億的樣子?對,七幾億"},{"start":367.219,"end":383.996,"text":"今年會比較多一點因為我們要增加一些設備一年花了70幾億有沒有變成是在設備標我們要增加預算是要增加設備讓它未來更準但委員跟您報告這一次的颱風真的跟過去非常的不一樣因為過去47年很少有颱風"},{"start":385.037,"end":402.487,"text":"到高雄登陸這第一點第二點幾乎沒有看過那一種颱風在海外然後我們已經發了路警4天又4個小時才登陸的為什麼會這樣啊過去沒有這個樣子因為其實秋台本來秋天的颱風本來就不好重神庇佑台灣在乾淨的時刻守出來把風雨擋住了"},{"start":405.249,"end":431.679,"text":"委員這是大自然的現象我們事先預測颱風會在台灣消失它真的就在登陸之後變成一個熱帶性的低氣壓我們也是感謝啦 感恩的心啦沒有造成太多太多的災難其實安全是最重要的至於其次就是你剛剛講的放假放一天兩天只不過它造成了很大很大的不便我希望行政院這邊也可以再討論看看"},{"start":432.819,"end":461.492,"text":"因為現在的極端氣候未來可能還是會繼續遇到這些問題那遇到問題就要面對問題如何來解決問題是最重要雖然氣象局一共大概每年花了70幾億沒那麼多啦報告委員沒那麼多啦我剛剛講的數字是錯的不好意思這個數字我再精準一點再跟您報告好 不管好幾十億啦齁雖然是花了幾十億齁但是不要怕因為中華民國很有錢中華民國有錢得不得了"},{"start":462.742,"end":485.014,"text":"院長我們今年一花就要花大概總預算三兆既然有那麼多的錢來花這一次颱風的這個洗禮過後我越來越擔心的就是小朋友上學安全的問題建築物大概一萬兩千多棟大概超過五十年的有兩千多棟"},{"start":486.357,"end":486.517,"text":"委員請放心"},{"start":508.729,"end":510.731,"text":"謝謝院長 那我們這部分就優先來考量一下那既然講到中華民國很有錢 其實我們不缺錢"},{"start":531.713,"end":559.324,"text":"只要把餅做大我想院長也是來積極推動可是你上任了以後亮點還不夠不過我看到在那麼多的部長裡面有一個點子王他講說希望把台灣成為整個亞太的資產管理中心這個很好可是到底做得到做不到因為本席覺得很好所以我提了一個案就是這個"},{"start":562.274,"end":579.213,"text":"當沖降稅年底就到期了可以延長5年那我覺得這個彭志偉頭腦也不錯也很有心要做所以我提了5年的案結果居然聽說我的案子可能會被做掉"},{"start":580.922,"end":599.235,"text":"我只是想多一點的力量來幫助行政院把事情做好 把餅做大因為你做大 現在日均量大概5000億來說如果台灣成為亞太的資產管理中心我們可能日均量可以到8000億到1兆左右"},{"start":599.815,"end":629.156,"text":"我們收的證交稅更多啦所以拜託院長我大概問了一下大家支持五年的比較多可不可以拜託財政部你們溝通一下我們就讓他調為五年理由很簡單很多外資要來台灣投資你一下十三年三年關兩年罵一晃眼兩年就到了他要考慮他的整體資金的配備他的水位是多少掉來掉去"},{"start":629.994,"end":656.327,"text":"那得不償失：既然要3年要退了為什麼不退5年跟委員報告非常可惜本來昨天我們要開第二次行政院經濟發展委員會其中我們在會開始之後第一個報告就是會把過去第一次會議的決議向社會大眾來說明其中委員所關心的亞洲資產管理中心彭知委就會做很多有時間性時程上各種進度的說明跟安排"},{"start":656.747,"end":676.943,"text":"那這個就是彭帥一直說的亞洲資產管理中心兩年要有改 四年要有變 六年要有整這兩年當中我們再把它細分成幾個階段他就會提出實成的很客氣 但是我們會盡快設定時間對 順庭院長你剛講這個兩年 四年 六年啪 三年又到了又遇到一個同樣的問題我們現在前面這兩年的有改"},{"start":678.684,"end":704.561,"text":"這個當沖降稅三年以後要討論這個問題同樣的時間同一個地點又要不要再延原來昨天就跟大家報告前面兩年會做出什麼樣的時程這個他都有很詳細的規劃現在是要延三年還是要延五年是那個謝謝委員的指教剛剛委員提到兩件事情一個是亞洲資產管理中心一個是當沖降稅的問題那我先簡單回答亞洲資產管理中心的這個議題"},{"start":707.703,"end":736.29,"text":"剛剛院長也有提到因為確實台灣在過去推動這樣的一個政策有很多我們先天的限制但是台灣也有很多很多的優勢我們這次推動這個亞洲資產關係中心是用一個比較不一樣的思維是用盤點台灣的優勢來進行這個活動剛才講 比如說剛剛院長提到我們兩年有感我先簡單講個數據我兩年之內我們金管會要修改46個法規一定會讓人民有感"},{"start":736.87,"end":764.426,"text":"讓我們知道這件事情是真的那再來就是說我們希望四年有變是希望我們整個國內的資產管理的規模能夠達到一個讓我們市場可以有明顯改變的一個地步這個數據我們會再把它各個詳細再跟我們做外面的報告那至於說剛剛委員提到當沖降稅的問題我想站在金管會做一個資本市場管理未來比如說壯大台灣的股市這也是我們推動整個資產管理中心非常重要的一環"},{"start":765.146,"end":791.529,"text":"所以我們在過去呢從106年開始我們推動這個當沖降稅以後確實對市場帶來非常大的比如對它的交易量的提升流動性的提高以及所謂的避險工具的提供等等都已經產生這樣的一個效果我們這次屆期以後我們今晚會站在證券主管機關的立場我們也把立場就是提供給財政部財政部是稅的主政機關我們最後呢我們也尊重財政部的看法"},{"start":792.602,"end":820.567,"text":"好 謝謝那聽起來是不錯啦因為包括本席所提的提案就是保險法裡面這個規定如果修正通過大概海外的保險資金會回來大概9兆左右9兆希望投入公共建設所以彭主委你推動這個我們是樂觀其成所以主委長如果有好的官員好好做你要不要全力支持呢"},{"start":821.932,"end":840.693,"text":"現在的問題就是各部會其他的部會會扯他的後腿啊比如說大家最關心的剛剛講說不斷的發展那我相信這個院長心裡會覺得那我們股市到3萬點有沒有問題"},{"start":842.554,"end":859.245,"text":"大家加油 問題就在解決你要加油我就幫你啊本委員報告彭卓也很希望各位提出意見這只有讓事情做得更周圍更圓滿比方說當沖降稅這個事情其實我們對於一些租稅優惠啊就應該要明定它的時程而且也不應過長"},{"start":860.768,"end":861.549,"text":"好的 本席都會舉雙手贊成"},{"start":874.701,"end":874.901,"text":"主席報告委員"},{"start":905.361,"end":931.189,"text":"台灣未來發展要做得很好其實就面臨兩個最重要的事情第一個台灣會不會繼續成為國際口中的地緣政治最危險的區域所以院長你為什麼不好好來思考一下現在目前我們大概看起來人民的感覺就是全中華民國政府就全部單邊壓在美國"},{"start":933.547,"end":957.045,"text":"你們能不能有另外一條思維啊大陸這邊不管你喜不喜歡他你要留一線嘛 對不對兩邊留一線日後好相見啊現在不是啊現在我們媒體看到的就是要買軍購買軍購民兵要40萬大家要對沖對撞不是民兵這個委員民力不是民兵民力對不起民力因為我沒當過"},{"start":958.906,"end":983.283,"text":"那你如果下次要辦的時候我們再去參觀一下究竟是他什麼訓練我是在想說你為什麼把多一點的資金喔留一部分做溝通跟協調院長我想兩岸如果可以來思考推動和平協議不是簽喔只是推動大家聊聊看嘛"},{"start":983.763,"end":1008.518,"text":"因為推動和平協議還是要經過臺灣2300萬人的一致決議我們聽聽看,看看有沒有不同的聲音就跟兩邊小孩子打架一樣我們如果每天只是在旁邊出遊怎麼泡好戲泡好戲本來沒事打起來的時候大家也不是鼻青臉走而已,搞不好還有傷亡"},{"start":1009.258,"end":1036.415,"text":"所以我希望說 行政院可以思考有沒有另外一個和平的聲音你們不要吵 大家協調一下講一講 也許會有另外一個安全的亮點出現請問一下 村長兩岸現在多久沒聯繫了我們有陸委會 那請問陸委會你上一次跟大陸重要的官員對線就是熱線聯繫是什麼時候"},{"start":1040.45,"end":1054.046,"text":"報告委員我們跟中國大陸的溝通聯繫機制我們都努力在維繫住上一次上一次對接的熱線是什麼時候"},{"start":1055.621,"end":1071.295,"text":"你講是陸委會跟國台辦的熱線是嗎你跟國台辦誰有聯絡過我們同仁都有跟他們聯繫上一次聯繫是什麼時候我們一直都有在聯繫昨天有聯繫嗎"},{"start":1072.553,"end":1095.474,"text":"不是這麼說跟報告委員我們有既有的溝通聯繫機制這些機制我們持續在進行謝謝那你有沒有表達過兩邊可以談一談或是你要不要邀請他們比如說國台辦的主任在第三地也可以啊不借得到台灣總統府啊第三地"},{"start":1096.229,"end":1103.746,"text":"新加坡也可以在日本東京也可以大家找一個地方好好聊聊喝杯咖啡嘛咖啡錢我出"},{"start":1105.179,"end":1105.539,"text":"請問你是你是邱主委吧"},{"start":1135.978,"end":1137.804,"text":"那你上一次去大陸是什麼時候"},{"start":1139.592,"end":1167.479,"text":"各位委員報告我從2016年到政府工作過那因為中國大陸無法要我們答應他統一的前提才能進行這個官方的溝通所以截至目前為止到政府來工作都沒有去不過之前常去中國大陸交流訪問你這樣不行啦你這樣那麼久的時間都沒交流那你倒不如請柯總裁去跟他交流一下"},{"start":1168.254,"end":1182.127,"text":"他搞不好比陸委員還夠力因為柯總長大家認識很久啊他能去能生對不對能喝能抽煙什麼都可以什麼他都難不倒所以院長你可以找第二管道"},{"start":1183.513,"end":1204.321,"text":"主委我跟他不熟但是他一表人才可是你連大陸最重要官員你都沒見過面有一句話叫做見面三分情笑臉這個伸手不打笑臉人你總是要有不同的角色來踹踹看院長我們現在有沒有第三管道跟大陸那邊有交流"},{"start":1205.583,"end":1217.923,"text":"報告委員 台灣願意 中華民國台灣願意也必須跟理念相同的民主夥伴國家站在一起兩岸之間我上一個會期的施政報告我提到了我希望兩岸能夠和平共榮"},{"start":1219.528,"end":1235.395,"text":"和平共榮的條件和平共榮的條件就是希望他來的就是觀光客學生而不是來的軍機軍艦這樣才能夠和平共榮所以我們是要求他能夠先履行這樣子對區域安全穩定的一個先期應該表現出來的態度但我們願意"},{"start":1236.556,"end":1258.792,"text":"如果他願意讓邱主委去 我想他也願意去他願意讓我們觀光團去 我們也願意去他設限很多其實是這樣的 如果說你害怕的話我們也請一些委員當然共同陪你去做一起見證國家能夠進去一個我們希望能夠跟他溝通的地方 無所謂其實就是這個陸委會你也不要怕"},{"start":1259.392,"end":1281.44,"text":"因為卓議院長也都去過大陸阿是對吧你看看可是我現在也不能去啦他也把我控住了不管嘛就是我們去多一點溝通就有多一點感情嘛更何況是同文同種我希望說我們這個台灣要記取烏克蘭的教訓"},{"start":1282.236,"end":1310.45,"text":"我們千萬不可以成為烏克蘭所以台灣的老百姓都是熱愛和平的可是中國也不能成為俄羅斯當然不能因為他不是俄羅斯我們也不能讓他成為俄羅斯我們希望能影響他們其實你如果說最重要的是就是這個習總書記如果有辦法很多台商跟他都有見過面想辦法用"},{"start":1311.533,"end":1335.993,"text":"民主的溫暖用民主的熱情以及中國人民的東方之子的血脈相連的個性多跟他溝通大家軍購你少1000億他少一兆兩岸不是更和諧嗎所以本席還是希望"},{"start":1337.13,"end":1365.358,"text":"卓院長可以一點點的考量走兩岸和平協議的推動這個內容我不知道你自己再試試看兩邊要是可以同意你當作一個備案不是現在提出但是希望至少還有存在一點點的空間讓大家彼此空間多一點空間多一點明天可能就會有大空間的出現"},{"start":1366.218,"end":1382.668,"text":"希望兩岸還是要和諧當然希望用交流代替對抗但是我們必須不卑不亢的如果能夠推動兩岸的和平共榮我們都願意我想只要對方也能夠持續這樣的一個心情跟態度來推動那絕對是好的那目前要突破的"},{"start":1383.499,"end":1410.656,"text":"我方沒有任何太大的意見對方：對台灣的企圖：跟對世界的企圖：是大家對他有所借心的好 謝謝我希望卓院長剛剛所講的這個和平的方向是多數台灣人共同的願望跟目標那陸委會這樣一年的預算多少我們下個年度的是10億那今年9億多你們再好好"},{"start":1412.113,"end":1439.688,"text":"有編的錢就好好做事不要一個單位在那邊不做事那也看不到功效就很可惜另外在請院長因為時間的關係就統籌分配稅款的問題你知道一合之隔在新店像我們大坪林生第一胎的補助有多少你知道嗎新北市是2萬然後台北市第一胎補助是4萬"},{"start":1441.462,"end":1465.401,"text":"然後到了第二胎新北市的補助是兩萬臺北市的補助是四萬五千塊反正他的比例都不一樣可是這個一水之隔停美錫過去就是臺北我們這邊是大坪林就差了一個地方福利差了兩倍"},{"start":1467.654,"end":1467.674,"text":"委員長"},{"start":1499.231,"end":1516.882,"text":"財務法的部分這一次已經25年沒修了我們希望不要讓民眾一直有一個觀念就是中央又集權又集錢是不是這個部分可以趕快讓行政院的版本趕快"},{"start":1517.738,"end":1531.37,"text":"產生出來我們趕快在財委會來討論好不好是報告委員對於財化法那財政部已經收集各地方政府的意見也開過兩次會我們希望把意見分歧的部分"},{"start":1531.786,"end":1532.326,"text":"委員提到的是人均"},{"start":1554.606,"end":1555.587,"text":"主委長我們已經等了25年了"},{"start":1582.401,"end":1606.429,"text":"你知道有多少以前的好朋友就是民進黨的委員他們也是主張要修啊這已經修了25年都沒修我們希望這一次可以集合大家的力量不是單方面的哪一個政黨這是大家的共識啊讓貧富懸殊不要那麼大福利的政策不要"},{"start":1606.869,"end":1615.435,"text":"電價還會漲嗎?"},{"start":1616.598,"end":1616.618,"text":"其實齁"},{"start":1638.233,"end":1663.172,"text":"有年代關係你說民生一般住家不漲可是有一些工業漲了以後它的成本一定會反映嘛反映出來運輸也漲百物齊漲萬物齊漲我記得過去吃一顆荷包蛋是沒什麼每天吃一顆荷包蛋補充蛋白質沒有什麼特別感覺"},{"start":1664.162,"end":1685.416,"text":"現在每次吃到一顆荷包蛋特別是像鐵板燒燒出來的一顆要多少錢你知道20塊哇這個變成吃一顆蛋是我今天生活中的小確幸所以要拜託啊 院長電不要再漲了電能不能動漲"},{"start":1686.889,"end":1708.994,"text":"因為你再漲下去很多的各行各業大家受不了A漲B漲C漲大家都跟著漲物價上漲消費者物價指數也頻頻超過2以上真的唯一不漲的就是老百姓的薪水穩定物價是很重要的考量我們請郭部長來說"},{"start":1710.059,"end":1719.313,"text":"報告委員 我們這一次的這個 審議委員所做出來的決定就是您剛才所指正的統統部長我們指掌出口有賺錢的這些產業"},{"start":1721.889,"end":1749.69,"text":"那這產業是電子業比較多囉他是因為有賺錢然後主要是賣給國外所以我們沒有必要去補貼給國外的這些產業那 呃 郭部長我想請教這樣子對於台灣經濟的發展就是外國本來有一些大企業像NVIDIA 輝達或是很多公司本來要回來台灣設廠那會不會因為你不確定的一個電力的這個成本不會 他就不來了"},{"start":1750.892,"end":1776.524,"text":"這個我們基本的價格都是比我們的鄰居韓國日本這些我們有競爭的國家都要低所以現在輝達會來台灣嗎應該是會的如果輝達來台灣的話我還是要拜託郭部長因為你知道嘛新店好山好水好地方交通便捷醫療設備人文薈萃是"},{"start":1779.452,"end":1794.91,"text":"這個首選拜託再轉達一下我們代表新店區所有的市民所有朋友大家一起張開雙臂歡迎輝達到新店設廠是的謝謝委員我們會跟輝達建議"},{"start":1797.841,"end":1818.548,"text":"拜託主委院長：相關單位可以多多支持我們願意跟委員：我們一起努力把整個環境：投資環境：能源環境把它做得更好讓國外的大廠：對台灣真的深具信心而願意來台灣做更多的投資好 謝謝感謝那因為我來自地方有一些交通的問題我有書面還是要拜託還有一些高地自來水"},{"start":1819.208,"end":1820.728,"text":"謝謝羅明才委員的質詢 謝謝主委院長相關首長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:18:01 - 15:48:40","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155063","gazette":{"lineno":176,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（15時18分）韓院長、卓院長及相關行政團隊，大家下午好。可不可以請韓院長請卓院長備詢？"],["主席：麻煩卓院長備詢。"],["羅委員明才：卓院長你好。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員明才：莫忘世上苦人多，特別是這幾天的颱風假，雖然是放假，但是我一顆心忐忑不安，在家裡也好，在外面也好，就是到處看看這次的雨大風大會不會對臺灣造成影響跟傷害。不過這幾天我一直在想一件事情，就是不曉得卓院長在想什麼，突然放一天假，然後又放一天假，其實今天我覺得運氣還不錯，至少天佑臺灣，沒有太大的災害。因為我們看到媒體的報導，真的是怵目驚心，本來覺得雨下得跟狗貓一樣，可能很大很大，可是感覺並沒有媒體報得那麼可怕，都說會破紀錄、可能會破表。不曉得卓院長這幾天有沒有想過一件事情，故事都一直在重演，不只有今年，10年、20年、30年以來，大概三十幾年以來，每次就是為了颱風天到底到底要不要放假、標準在哪裡，大家莫衷一是。一些家長想破頭，萬一明天小孩放假或沒放假，小孩子怎麼安排？現在家裡都不大，一般小家庭大概二十幾坪、三十坪，如果有三個小孩全部待在家裡，這個吵、那個鬧、另一個哭，很麻煩啊！院長，你有沒有想過未來的颱風假要怎麼放才是最好的模式？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，我想委員也清楚，臺灣應該是唯一一個颱風假由法定機關來宣布的，鄰近國家，甚至美國，包括日本，都不是由政府機關來宣布颱風假。香港是有八號風球，八號球一出來……"],["羅委員明才：取消了。"],["卓院長榮泰：大家就……也取消了。日本是交由公司、團體、學校依照各自需要來處理。我們來看，我們是在安全跟災損之間，可能有些人選擇安全，所以認為放假是好的；可是那些很辛苦要工作，每天要靠一筆薪水來維持自己生活的，以及那些小老闆們必須要維持工作，公司才能營運的這些人，可能他們更希望的是經濟考量能多一點，所以標準是很難的。一般公務機關……"],["羅委員明才：院長，你怎麼想呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：只能從災害控管、交通設施、關鍵基礎設施等等來考量，但每個人的因素是不同的。過去將近三十年，臺灣都是交給地方政府來決定，我覺得現在我們有很好的科技，中央氣象署應該可以用科技來提供更正確的資料給地方政府。這一次的颱風很怪異，走得很慢，路線很怪。雨好像沒有上次大，可是風很強，你看高雄有屋頂、貨櫃被吹翻的，所以預測沒有錯，只是提供給地方政府參考時，地方政府基於各種不同的想法、理念跟標準來選擇。我覺得人民如果包容一點來看……"],["羅委員明才：這樣聽起來，以後颱風天放假不放假的標準不會改變？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望用科技的、精確的、提前的……"],["羅委員明才：講到科技，氣象局從前幾天就開始說會天翻地覆、會破紀錄……"],["卓院長榮泰：是破紀錄。"],["羅委員明才：到最後不斷地修正變化，就好像孫悟空七十二變一樣，變得大家莫衷一是！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["羅委員明才：現在科技那麼發達，難道沒有辦法很精準地告訴大家雨有多大、風有多強嗎？我們一年花在氣象局的預算花了多少錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，如果您身上跟我一樣，有氣象署這幾天一直傳過來，經過應變中心傳過來的資訊來看，其實氣象署的預測接近於相當準確的……"],["羅委員明才：是準的？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟其他國家比較起來，我們的路線等等是相當精準的，這個部長可以再說明。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實有些人說……"],["羅委員明才：既然準的話，那老百姓、人民就要謝謝你……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是應該的，不需要謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：我們眼睛看到的媒體A、B、C臺競相標價，A講小小的，B就要往上加；明明水淹一點點，記者的角度再躺一點就變成好像要淹大水一樣。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這次颱風確實變化比較大！"],["羅委員明才：在規範上有沒有辦法？就算你們最準好了，可是人民收到訊息都不一樣！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["羅委員明才：這一點怎麼樣規範？"],["陳部長世凱：這次有些人說AI比較準，但實際上看最後的數值，氣象署的數值比AI還要準一些；有些說中國比臺灣準，其實最後印證起來，氣象署還是比中國準……"],["羅委員明才：你們一年預算花多少錢？"],["陳部長世凱：其實有一個點確實……"],["羅委員明才：一年預算花多少錢？"],["陳部長世凱：預算？"],["羅委員明才：對，總預算是多少，氣象局？"],["陳部長世凱：氣象署今年是不是七十幾億的樣子？"],["羅委員明才：七十幾億？"],["陳部長世凱：今年會比較多一點，因為我們要增加一些設備。"],["羅委員明才：一年花了七十幾億，變成在射飛鏢？"],["陳部長世凱：我們增加預算是為了要增加設備，讓它未來更準。但跟您報告，這次颱風真的跟過去非常不一樣！過去47年來，很少有颱風在高雄登陸，這是第一點。第二點，幾乎沒有看過颱風在海外，然後我們發了陸警四天又四個小時才登陸的，過去……"],["羅委員明才：為什麼會這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：過去沒有這樣。因為其實秋颱本來就不好……"],["羅委員明才：還是因為眾神庇佑臺灣？"],["陳部長世凱：不是，秋天的颱風本來就不好預測……"],["羅委員明才：在關鍵時刻手伸出來把風雨擋住了？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，這是大自然的現象，我們事先也預測颱風會在臺灣消失，它真的就在登陸之後變成一個熱帶性低氣壓，之後它就消失了。"],["羅委員明才：這個我們也是感謝，感恩的心……"],["卓院長榮泰：不用感謝，這是應該做到的。"],["羅委員明才：沒有造成太多太多的災難，其實安全是最重要的，至於其次就是你剛剛講的放假，放1天、2天，只不過它造成了很大的不便，我希望行政院也可以再討論看看，因為現在的極端氣候，未來可能還是會繼續遇到這些問題，遇到問題就要面對問題，如何來解決問題是最重要的。雖然氣象局大概每年花了七十幾億，但是……"],["陳部長世凱：沒那麼多啦！報告委員，沒那麼多。"],["羅委員明才：你剛剛跟我說七十幾億啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我剛剛講的數字是錯的，不好意思，這個數字我再精準一點再跟您報告。"],["羅委員明才：好啦，不管，幾十億啦！雖然花了幾十億，但是不要怕，因為中華民國很有錢，中華民國有錢的不得了！院長，我們今年一花大概就要花，總預算3兆……"],["卓院長榮泰：3兆1,534億……"],["羅委員明才：既然那麼多的錢來花，經過這一次颱風的洗禮過後，我越來越擔心的就是小朋友上學安全的問題，建築物大概一萬兩千多棟，超過50年的有兩千多棟。院長，拜託，苦不要苦小孩，我們讓下一代安安全全的，在安全的建築物裡面受教育，今年的預算可不可以多一點來照顧小孩子的安全？讓家長放心，你我也放心，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，委員請放心……"],["羅委員明才：好，我放心！"],["卓院長榮泰：預算再高，也不會浪費在不應該花的地方；預算再少，也不會吝嗇於各種應該做的建設跟維護人民的安全，小孩子的教育跟安全，你我共同一樣，我們把它列為很重要的工作來做。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝院長，這個部分我們就優先來考量一下。","既然講到中華民國很有錢，其實我們不缺錢，只要把餅做大，我想院長也是想積極推動，可是你上任以後，亮點還不夠，不過我看到在那麼多的部長裡面有個點子王，他說希望臺灣成為整個亞太的資產管理中心，這個很好，可是到底做得到做不到？因為本席覺得很好，所以我提了一個案，就是當沖降稅年底就到期了，可以延長5年，我覺得彭主委頭腦也不錯，也很有心要做，所以我提了5年的案，結果居然聽說我的案子可能會被做掉！我只是想多一點力量來幫助行政院把事情做好，把餅做大。因為你做大，以現在日均量大概5,000億來說，如果臺灣成為亞太資產管理中心，我們可能日均量可以到8,000億到1兆左右，我們收的證交稅更多了啊！所以拜託院長，我大概問了一下，大家支持5年的比較多，可不可以拜託財政部，你們溝通一下，我們讓它調為5年，理由很簡單，很多外資要來臺灣投資，你一下3年，所謂「三年官，二年滿」，一晃眼2年就到了，他要考慮他整體資金的配備、水位是多少，調來調去，得不償失啊！既然要推3年了，為什麼不推5年？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，非常可惜，本來昨天我們要開第二次行政院經濟發展委員會，在會議開始之後，第一個報告的就是會把過去第一次會議的決議向社會大眾說明，其中委員所關心的亞洲資產管理中心，彭主委就會做很多時間性、時程上各種進度的說明跟安排，這個就是彭主委一直說的，亞洲資產管理中心要「兩年有感、四年有變、六年有成」，這兩年當中我們再把它細分幾個階段，他就會提出時程，但很可惜，不過我們會儘快擇定時間。至於……"],["羅委員明才：對，所以院長剛剛講的兩年、四年、六年，啪，3年又到了，就會遇到同樣的問題，……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會，我們現在前面這兩年的有感……"],["羅委員明才：當沖降稅，3年後又要討論這個問題！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，前面的兩年……"],["羅委員明才：同樣的時間、同樣的地點，要不要再延？"],["卓院長榮泰：原來昨天就跟大家報告前面兩年會做出什麼樣的時程，這個他都有詳細的規劃。"],["羅委員明才：請問彭主委，現在是要延3年，還是延5年？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員的指教。剛剛委員有提到兩件事，一個是亞洲資產管理中心，一個是當沖降稅的問題，我先簡單回答亞洲資產管理中心的議題。剛剛院長也有提到，確實臺灣在過去推動這樣的政策有很多先天的限制，但是臺灣也有很多很多的優勢，我們這次推動亞洲資產管理中心是用一個比較不一樣的思維，是用盤點臺灣的優勢來進行這項活動。比如剛才院長提到的要兩年有感，我先簡單講個數據，在兩年之內，金管會要修改46個法規，一定會讓人民有感，知道這件事我們是真的要做。再來，我們希望四年有變是希望整個國內資產管理的規模，能夠達到讓我們的市場可以有明顯改變的地步，這個數據我們會再詳細對外報告。","至於剛才委員提到當沖降稅的問題，站在金管會做資本市場管理的角度，未來比如說壯大臺灣股市，這也是我們推動資產管理中心非常重要的一環，所以過去我們從106年開始推動當沖降稅以後，確實對市場帶來非常大的改變，比如交易量的提升、流動性的提高及避險工具的提供等等，都已經產生這樣的效果。這次屆期以後，金管會站在證券主管機關的立場，我們也把立場提供給財政部，因為財政部是稅的主政機關，我們最後也尊重財政部的看法。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝，聽起來是不錯啦！另外，包含本席所提的提案，保險法裡面的規定，如果修正通過，大概海外的保險基金會匯回來大概9兆左右，希望這9兆可以投入公共建設，所以彭主委推動這個，我們是樂觀其成。卓院長，如果有好的官員要好好做，你要不要全力支持呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然支持，因為這也是經濟發展……"],["羅委員明才：現在的問題就是其他部會會扯他的後腿啊！譬如大家最關心的，剛剛說都不斷發展，我相信院長心裡也會覺得，我們股市到3萬點有沒有問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：大家加油，有問題就來解決。"],["羅委員明才：你要加油我就幫你，其實……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，彭主委也很希望各部會提出意見，就能讓事情做得更周延、更圓滿，比方說當沖降稅這件事，其實我們對於一些租稅優惠要應該要明定時程，而且也不應過長，這樣才不會造成在經濟層面上大家的期待太高或是做一些其他不必要的，我們希望在合理的範圍內，所以我們是通過3年，延到116年。"],["羅委員明才：只要是好的，本席都會舉雙手贊成，因為最重要的是把臺灣這個地方做好，讓大家安居樂業。就像韓院長所說的莫忘世上苦人多，我們希望苦人能少一點，有錢人多一點，大家樂捐，讓這些苦的人可以得到社會的關懷，讓大家同步成長，貧富懸殊不要差太大。但是卓院長不要忘了，各部會有一些會出現扯後腿的情況……"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員……"],["羅委員明才：接著我想要請教一下，臺灣未來發展要做的很好，其實就面臨兩個最重要的事情，第一個，臺灣會不會繼續成為國際口中地緣政治最危險的區域？院長為什麼不好好來思考一下，目前我們大概看起來，人民的感覺就是全中華民國政府全部單邊押在美國，你們能不能有另外一條思維？大陸這邊，不管你喜不喜歡它，你要留一線，對不對？兩邊留一線，日後好相見，但現在不是，現在從媒體看到的就是要軍購、軍購，民兵要40萬，大家要對衝、對撞，請問……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是民兵，委員，是民力，不是民兵，這個差很多。"],["羅委員明才：喔，民力，對不起！民力我沒有當過，如果你下次要辦的時候，我們再去參觀一下，究竟是差什麼訓練。","我在想你為什麼不把資金留一部分做溝通跟協調？院長，我想兩岸如果可以來思考推動和平協議，不是簽，只是推動，大家聊聊看，因為推動和平協議還是要經過臺灣2,300萬人的一致決議，我們聽聽看有沒有不同的聲音，就跟兩邊小孩子打架一樣，如果每天只是在旁邊催說，「打給他死、打給他死」，本來沒事的，結果打起來後不是鼻青臉腫而已，搞不好還有傷亡，所以我希望行政院可以思考，有沒有另外一個和平的聲音，你們不要吵，大家來協調一下，講一講，也許會有另外一個安全的亮點出現。請問一下卓院長，兩岸現在多久沒聯繫了？我們有陸委會，請問陸委會，你上一次跟大陸重要的官員對線，就是熱線聯繫，是什麼時候？"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，我們跟中國大陸的溝通聯繫機制都努力在維繫住，那我們也……"],["羅委員明才：上一次對接的熱線是什麼時候？"],["邱主任委員垂正：你講的是陸委會跟國臺辦的熱線是嗎？"],["羅委員明才：你這邊，你跟國臺辦的誰有聯絡過？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們同仁都有跟他們聯繫。"],["羅委員明才：上一次聯繫是什麼時候？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們一直都有在聯繫。"],["羅委員明才：昨天有聯繫嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：不是這麼說。報告委員，我們有既有的溝通聯繫機制，這些機制持續在進行，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：你們有沒有表達過兩邊可以談一談，或是你要不要邀請他們？譬如說國臺辦的主任，在第三地也可以，不見得到臺灣的總統府，第三地新加坡也可以，或是在日本東京也可以，大家找一個地方喝杯咖啡好好聊一聊，咖啡錢我出。"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，兩岸正常健康有序的交流，這是我方需要的，但是他們設置了官方溝通的障礙，所以阻撓了官方正常的交流，雖然如此，我們認為民間的層次也應該正常健康有序的交流，共同維護兩岸關係和平穩定。謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：請問你是邱主委嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["羅委員明才：那你上一次去大陸是什麼時候？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我從2016年到政府工作，因為中國大陸要我們答應統一的前提才能進行官方的溝通，所以截至目前為止，到政府來工作後都沒有去，不過之前常去中國大陸交流訪問。"],["羅委員明才：這樣不行啦！你那麼久的時間都沒有交流，那你倒不如請柯總召去跟他交流一下，他搞不好比陸委會還夠力。因為大家認識柯總召很久，他能屈能伸，對不對？能喝、能抽菸，什麼都可以，什麼他都難不倒。所以院長可以找第二管道，我跟主委不熟，可是他一表人才，卻連大陸最重要的官員都沒見過面。有一句話叫做見面三分情，伸手不打笑臉人，你總是要有幾個不同的角色來try、try看，院長，我們現在有沒有第三管道跟大陸那邊有交流？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，中華民國臺灣願意也必須跟理念相同的民主夥伴國家站在一起，兩岸之間，我上一個會期的施政報告就提到了，我希望兩岸能夠和平共榮，和平共榮的條件……"],["羅委員明才：講這個大家就覺得……"],["卓院長榮泰：和平共榮的條件就是希望來的就是觀光客、學生，而不是來軍機、軍艦，這樣才能夠和平共榮，所以我們是要求他能夠先履行對區域安全穩定先期應該表現出來的態度。那我們願意，如果他願意讓邱主委去，我想他也願意去，他願意讓我們的觀光團去，我們也願意去，現在問題是他設限很多。"],["羅委員明才：好，OK。其實是這樣的，如果說你害怕的話，我們也請一些委員大家共同陪你去……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有什麼害怕。"],["羅委員明才：就一起見證，其實……"],["卓院長榮泰：為了國家能夠進去一個我們希望能夠跟他溝通的地方，我無所畏懼……"],["羅委員明才：其實就是陸委會也不要怕……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我沒有怕。"],["羅委員明才：因為卓院長也都去過大陸，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員明才：你看看……"],["卓院長榮泰：可是我現在也不能去了，他也把我封住了。"],["羅委員明才：不管嘛！我們多一點溝通就有多一點感情，更何況是同文同種。我希望我們臺灣要記取烏克蘭的教訓，我們千萬不可以成為烏克蘭，所有的臺灣老百姓都是熱愛和平的……"],["卓院長榮泰：可是中國也不能成為俄羅斯。"],["羅委員明才：對，當然不能，因為他不是俄羅斯，我們也不能讓他成為俄羅斯，我們希望能影響他們。其實最重要的就是習總書記，如果有辦法，很多臺商都有跟他見過面，想辦法用民主的溫暖、民主的熱情以及中國人民東方之子血脈相連的個性，多跟他溝通，大家在軍購上你少1,000億、他少1兆，這樣兩岸不是會更和諧嗎？所以本席還是希望卓院長可以做一點點的考量，走兩岸和平協議的推動，這個內容我不知道，你自己再試試看，兩邊要是可以同意，你當作一個備案嘛！不是現在提出，但是希望至少還有存在一點點的空間，讓彼此空間多一點。如果空間多一點，明天可能就會有大空間的出現，希望兩岸還是要和諧。"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然希望用交流代替對抗。"],["羅委員明才：是，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們必須不卑不亢，如果能夠推動兩岸的和平共榮，我們都願意，我想只要對方也能夠抱持一個這樣的心情跟態度來推動，那絕對是好的。目前要突破的，我方沒有任何太大的意見，對方對臺灣的企圖跟對世界的企圖，是讓大家對他有戒心的。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝，我想卓院長剛剛所講這個和平的方向是多數臺灣人共同的願望跟目標。陸委會現在一年的預算是多少？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們下個年度的預算是10億，今年是九億多。"],["羅委員明才：好吧！你們編了錢就要好好做事，不要一個單位在那邊不做事，然後也看不到功效，這樣就很可惜。另外，因為時間的關係，我再請問院長統籌分配稅款的問題，只有一河之隔，在我們新店大坪林生第一胎的補助有多少？你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道臺北……"],["羅委員明才：新北市是2萬。"],["卓院長榮泰：臺北比較多。"],["羅委員明才：臺北市第一胎的補助是4萬，然後到了第二胎，新北市的補助是2萬，臺北市的補助是4萬5,000塊，它的比例都不一樣，可是才一水之隔，景美溪過去就是臺北，我們這邊是大坪林，就只差了這個地方，福利差了2倍，還有很多、很多相關的問題。這個原因就是統籌分配稅款的比例不一樣，所以請院長可以多多來苦民所苦，新北人口多，人均分配的補助卻比較少，造成長期以來的不公平。財委會已經要開始開會了，財劃法已經25年沒修了，我們希望不要讓民眾一直有一個觀念，就是中央既集權又集錢，這個部分行政院的版本是不是可以趕快產生出來？我們趕快在財委會來討論，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：請莊部長說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，報告委員，對於財劃法財政部已經蒐集各地方政府的意見，也開過兩次會，我們希望就意見分歧的部分儘量充分討論，然後凝聚共識，在有共識的情況下，我們再來審慎的推動修法。剛剛委員也提到新北市等等，就如同其他縣市也都會為他們縣市來爭取相關的統籌分配稅款的補助，各個縣市都會提出對它有利的指標，譬如委員提到的是人均，但是在統籌分配稅款討論的時候，除了人口數之外，還有土地面積，還有營利事業的營業額等等各項指標，我們都必須要綜合考量，然後分配合理的權重，讓各地方政府可以獲得合理財源的資助。"],["羅委員明才：是，在這個會期會不會過？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們認為還是要充分的討論，然後凝聚共識。"],["羅委員明才：卓院長，我們已經等了25年。你知道以前有多少的好朋友，也就是民進黨的委員也是主張要修，結果已經說了25年都沒修。我們希望這一次可以集合大家的力量，不是單方面的哪一個政黨，這是大家的共識，讓貧富懸殊不要那麼大，福利的政策不要南轅北轍、差那麼多，希望一起來努力。另外一個大家比較關心的就是電，電價還會不會漲？"],["卓院長榮泰：電價審議委員會日前通過了他們的決議，從10月16號開始會局部性的針對某些用電大戶做比較高幅度的調整，至於說民生用電、住家、小商店等等是不會有任何的變動。"],["羅委員明才：其實肝跟胃有連帶關係，你說民生、一般住家不漲，可是有一些工業漲了以後，它的成本一定會反映嘛！反映出來運輸也漲，百物齊漲，萬物齊漲。我記得過去吃一顆荷包蛋沒什麼，每天吃一顆荷包蛋補充蛋白質，沒有什麼特別感覺，現在每次吃到一顆荷包蛋，特別是像鐵板燒燒出來的，你知道一顆要多少錢？20塊，哇！吃一顆蛋變成是我今天生活中的小確幸，所以要拜託院長，電不要再漲了，電能不能凍漲？因為你再漲下去，各行各業大家都受不了了，A漲、B漲、C漲，大家都跟著漲，物價上漲，消費者物價指數也頻頻超過二以上，真的唯一不漲的就是老百姓的薪水。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個審議，穩定物價是很重要的考量，我請郭部長來說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一次的審議委員所做出來的決定，就是您剛才所指正的統統不漲，我們只漲出口有賺錢的這些產業。"],["羅委員明才：這些產業是電子業比較多？"],["郭部長智輝：它是因為有賺錢，然後主要是賣給國外，所以我們沒有必要補貼給國外的這些產業。"],["羅委員明才：郭部長，我想請教，這樣對於臺灣經濟的發展，就是外國本來有一些大企業像輝達（NVIDIA）或是很多公司要來臺灣設廠，會不會因為不確定的電力成本，它就不來了？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。報告委員，我們基本的價格都是比我們的鄰居──韓國、日本這些與我們有競爭的國家都要低。"],["羅委員明才：所以現在輝達會來臺灣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是會的。"],["羅委員明才：會。如果輝達來臺灣的話，我還是要拜託郭部長，因為你知道新店好山好水、好地方、交通便捷，醫療設備、人文薈萃是首選，拜託再轉達一下。"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["羅委員明才：我代表新店區所有的市民、所有的朋友，大家一起張開雙臂歡迎輝達到新店設廠。"],["郭部長智輝：是的，謝謝委員，我們會跟輝達建議。"],["羅委員明才：是，也拜託卓院長，相關單位可以多多支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們願意跟委員一起努力，把整個投資環境、能源環境做得更好，讓國外的大廠對臺灣真的深具信心，願意來臺灣做更多的投資。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝、感謝。因為我來自地方，有一些交通的問題，我有提出書面，還是要拜託，還有一些高地自來水現在仍欠缺的問題，還是請部長也多多關心一下。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["羅委員明才：讓大家有水喝、有飯吃、電不要漲，大家生活不要壓力那麼大一點，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員的指教，那我們的總預算也要請委員幫忙。"],["委員羅明才書面補充資料：","1.現行統籌分配稅款規模不足，財劃法應盡速完成修法","請問院長您知道嗎，一對夫妻生了第一胎，他們設籍在新北市新店大坪林，生育津貼可以領到多少錢？如果這對夫妻是設籍在僅一（捷運）站之隔的台北市景美，他們可以領到多少錢的生育津貼？","福利整整相差一倍，同樣都是台灣人，卻因設籍地不同，得到的社會福利不一樣，根本原因就是在「錢」──「統籌分配稅款」！","(1)精省前，中央與地方收入占全國總收入比例為60%比40%；精省後，兩者的收入比例為75%比25%。中央多拿走全國總收入的15%\n，集權又集錢，嚴重傷害地方財政。","(2)近四年來中央每年都稅收超徵：2021年4,327億元、2022年5,237億元、2023年3,860億元，2024年超徵的規模預估約2,000到3,000億元，中央政府稅收超徵也可望達到1,800億元的規模\n。","本席認為，站在中央的立場，統籌分配稅款應該要重新分配，否則對地方建設發展真的衝擊很大。","首先，當然是中央應該把餅做大，垂直分配增加，水平分配也才能跟著增加。所以想請問院長，目前「院版財劃法」的進度\n？今年7月初，院長表示「現行版本就是共識」，可是明明每個縣市都在喊窮、喊不夠，唯一的共識就是財劃法亟待修法。本席認為，最重要的是中央對於歸還地方15%稅收，或是到底要拿多少還給地方，願不願意鬆口，否則現在讓各縣市討論眾多指標或當中有無共識都沒有意義，最後只是淪為「網內互打」，吵半天也不會有結果，因此本席要求盡速提出「院版財劃法」，這樣大家才能真正坐下來談！","其次，本席來自新北市，可是「新北市獲得統籌分配稅款及補助款，人均是六都最低！」，就是沒有按人口比例和貢獻度有多大來分配。新北還有許多亟待興建的公共建設，本席必須為新北市民向院長請命，統籌分配稅款的分配要對每個國民均等才公平！所以本席希望新北市能夠再增加7、80億元！","再者，按估算，在綜所稅、證交稅挹注下，今年超徵規模有望達到2、3,000億元，中央政府稅收恐會高出約1,800億元，看來有機會連4年超徵數額站上千億以上規模。本席認為，超徵金額除了用於還債\n，是否可以訂定一套辦法來決定如何運用超徵金額？而不是行政院說補貼台電就補台電，補完後又漲電價，等於是從老百姓身上剝兩次皮，說補貼勞健保就補勞健保，每次都是行政院決定後，才來要立法院事後同意！","(1)稅收超徵既然是來自民脂民膏，理應「還稅於民」，尤其現在物價漲成這樣，民眾哇哇叫，政府應該「普發現金」，把錢還給他們。","(2)現行統籌分配稅款規模明顯不足，除了財劃法修法外，盼中央能先讓各縣市經費平衡發展，可否再針對有需要的地方建設，將超徵金額用於補助。","2.震出校舍老舊問題　三兆總預算卻窮孩子、吝修校舍　中央應專案補助","按教育部統計，0403花蓮地震之後，全台共有1,080所學校受損，災損金額破29.6億元。再按氣象署統計，台灣每年平均發生2萬到4萬次地震，至於規模6.0以上的地震，每年平均3次。校園建築被震出問題，全台逾1.2萬棟耐震有疑慮，14萬餘學童在危樓上課\n。","校舍的高齡與耐震能力高度相關。全台約有2,200棟屋齡超過50年的校舍（新北市約有200棟），而超過30年屋齡的校舍更高達8,300餘棟。針對校舍的耐震能力，各級學校校舍屬於第三類建築物\n，其Is值應大於一百，但根據教育部國教署在2021年提出的一份分析報告顯示，全國公立高級中等以下學校校舍達2.7萬餘棟，裡面卻有近4成5的校舍（逾1.2萬棟）的Is值在一百以下\n，明顯有公共安全的疑慮。","因應地震導致建築物倒塌可能釀成的傷害，防範未然是關鍵。但從2022年以後，中央並無相關專案計畫，老舊校舍拆除重建或補強工作回歸由各地方政府，納入行政院一般性補助款指定項目經費或編列預算辦理。114年度中央政府總預算歲出達3.12兆元，但行政院1年花在買媒體的費用就高達15億元，而老舊校舍改建一般性補助款總額卻只有37.5億元，這些錢分配到全台各縣市\n，考量一棟校舍改建費用約為上千萬至上億元，單一縣市每年可能僅能改建三、四棟校舍，絕大多數仍得由地方自行籌錢。然而地方政府財務拮据，所以只能不斷以補強方式提高校舍耐震係數，治標不治本，尤其台灣位處地震帶，如果真的在白天上課期間發生大地震，後果不堪設想！因此本席認為，政府在呼籲民眾多生孩子的同時，卻無法提供孩子一個安全的學習環境，所以中央政府應採專案計畫方式，編列長期預算，針對耐震指標IS值在一百以下、超過50年老舊校舍進行有序列的改建計畫。","3.2024美國總統大選對台影響","2024美國總統大選即將到來（11/5），根據目前民調，民主黨候選人賀錦麗與共和黨候選人川普旗鼓相當，是60年來兩黨候選人聲勢最接近的一次選舉，尤其是考量到美國選舉人團制度，兩人的競爭更為緊繃。","請問院長認為誰會當選？誰當選，對台灣比較有利？","2024/10/02 川普支持度45.78%；賀錦麗支持度48.54%","美國副總統辯論結束（台灣時間10/2 9時），CNN「最新民調」：共和黨范斯51%領先民主黨華茲49%","如果是川普當選，他早在今年6月下旬就表示，台灣奪走了美國的晶片事業，而若台灣要美國提供保護，「台灣應該付錢（保護費）」（stole our chip business and should pay for defence.），但他當時並沒有明確指出台灣的國防預算應提高多少。現在川普開出價碼了，台灣國防支出不夠，應提高到國內生產毛額（GDP）的10%，也就是國防預算等同要編列約新台幣2.6兆元，佔中央政府總預算3兆的8成以上。雖院長之前（10/1）回應，國防預算依國家需求編列，絕非要依附或滿足哪一個數字\n，然台灣現在的國防支出已經達到GDP的2.6%，超過多數北大西洋公約組織（NATO）成員國\n，未來是否還有可能再增加？就如川普前國安顧問歐布萊恩\n（Robert O'Brien）今年6月所說的，台灣的國防支出應增加至GDP的5%？","本席呼籲院長，政府對於美國總統候選人提出的這些根本強人所難的要求，該說的還是要說、該反映的還是要反映，不然我們真的會被認為是「細漢」的，被予取予求，要所有台灣人都不吃不喝，所有錢都拿來買軍火、預備打仗，最後傷害的其實還是全體老百姓的利益。","其次，美國軍火商雷神公司（RTX）抬價詐欺，要不是美國政府主動調查確有其事並通知我方，我們就會一直被當盤子、好大的盤子，光是愛國者飛彈和雷達\n，我們被欺詐了至少30多億元以上。國防部應該出面說清楚、講明白，應嚴肅、端正軍購的流程，尤其美國對台軍售金額龐大，其間又涉弊，應該要追查我方權益，以及我方是否也涉及官商勾結、洗錢等，而且審計部也應該出來調查清楚，賴總統則是更必須嚴正表態，我方已經被當作「盤子」，不能變凱子！","(1)此事是彭博社6月的報導，美國司法部調查結果距今已有四個月之久，可是國防部期間卻隱匿實情，直到國內媒體引述該報導，才對外證實。","(2)在流弊曝光後，國防部還企圖以「疑美論」進行政治操作，導向對岸的認知作戰，以降低、減少受監督的力道和被關注的程度，明顯侵害國人知的權利。","(3)根據美國智庫「卡托研究所」（CATO Institute）今年9月公布的統計研究報告，截至今年8月為止，美國對台軍售延宕尚未交貨的武器裝備累積金額已達205.3億美元\n。再加上去年底，美國運送到台灣一批「總統撥款權」提供的軍備中，有40年前的彈藥、發霉潮濕的防彈背心，連美國官員都承認好像是在清掉不要的東西，根本不堪使用。因此本席認為，我們跟美國當然是要緊密合作，但與其「以備戰來避戰」、「以實力確保和平」不斷地增加國防預算，國防部是否應先有更積極的作為？請美國把台灣已經付錢的武器快點交貨，還來得比較實際！","再者，本席認為，不論是誰當選，屆時都將維持對中的強硬態度，美中貿易關係仍將緊繃\n，尤其如果是川普當選，「川普經濟學2.0」勢必回鍋，包括貿易保護主義、提高進口關稅等，極有可能升高中美之間的貿易和經濟敵意，加速兩國間的貿易和金融脫鉤，到時可能不會像經濟部長郭智輝所說的那樣樂觀，無論誰當選，應該對整體貿易情況和經濟政策都不會改變\n。考量台灣全球價值鏈參與度高，必然會受到中美貿易戰（如關稅）的波及，因此本席建議，11/5不論是誰當選美國總統，我們都必須分散製造風險，也建議院長應及早成立因應小組，研議相關對策。","4.「15-45歲青壯世代心理健康支持方案」應再擴大","去年「15-30歲年輕族群心理健康支持方案」廣受各界支持迴響，甚至有年輕人至本席服務處反映名額太少，希望能夠增加名額。今年衛福部擴大延伸，推出「15-45歲青壯世代心理健康支持方案」，於8月1日正式上路。本席很支持這項政策，畢竟現代人壓力大，遭遇各種心理迷惘與困擾，鼓勵有心理諮商需求的青壯世代勇於求助，可以尋求心理專業人員協助，促進心理健康。","(1)請問院長「心理健康支持方案」這項政策會延續嗎？本席希望能繼續推行，甚至再擴大。","(2)適用年齡再擴大：當初衛福部評估31~45歲青壯世代的三明治族群約525萬人，可是其實在台灣有逾8成的家庭都是上有老、下有小的三明治家庭，是台灣人口及經濟組成的重要支柱，可分為三種類型\n：","a.「傳統三明治世代」：通常是指40多歲或50歲出頭的族群，夾在需要經濟或其他幫助的年邁父母與成年子女之間。","b.「總匯三明治世代」：指的是50多歲或60多歲的年長者，他們夾在更年邁的父母、成年子女，甚至可能還有孫子輩之間。這個分類也可以指30多歲或40多歲的族群，他們同時有年幼的孩子、年邁的父母，甚至高齡祖父、母。","c.「開放式三明治世代」：任何在人生階段需要照護長者的非專業族群。","而且根據日前保險業者（保誠人壽）的「三明治族大調查（20~59歲）」，發現46%表示目前生活已超過能負荷之壓力，較去年增加3%（2023：43%），其中49%的40世代壓力感受顯著較去年增加（2023：41%）\n，再加上近三年來45~64歲者的","自殺死亡率也是逐年增加，也較15～44歲者高，所以本席認為「心理健康支持方案」適用年齡應該再擴大，以幫助更多有心理諮商需求的民眾，減少憾事發生。","(3)免費諮商次數增加為6次：現衛福部提供3次免費諮商，比較像是「試用包」的概念，讓民眾有機會體驗心理諮商。可是對於3次諮商結束後仍有需求者，又或者是高風險個案，那又該怎麼辦呢？本席發現，雖然號稱全台共有381個心理諮商服務據點，但是各地資訊相對雜亂且不完整，對有意願使用的民眾來說真的很不便利；其次，各縣市「社區心理衛生中心」明顯數量不足\n；再者，自費諮商費用昂貴，台北市一般落在2,000到3,000元，對於有需要的民眾來說是一大負擔，尤其是年輕族群。一般來說，短期心理諮商以6～8次為架構，故可否請衛福部研議，就有需要短期心理諮商的民眾提供6次免費諮商，以較能達到一定諮商的效益。","5.擴大長者憂鬱症篩檢，以及也提供長者3次免費心理諮商","2025年台灣將進入超高齡化社會，除了面臨身體上的長照機制，心理健康也是需要關注的一項重要環節。按流行病學的觀點來看，「情緒障礙」（特別是憂鬱症）的個案是隨著年齡老化增加數量的，可以從長者自殺身亡的人口比率高居不下獲得驗證\n。憂鬱症是全球常見且嚴重的精神疾病，且會增加自殺風險。根據衛福部數據統計，長者憂鬱症盛行率為16.7%，相當於每6長者就有1人有憂鬱症\n！但往往罹患憂鬱症的長者沒有篩檢或就診\n，除了是缺乏病識感或抗拒就醫外，憂鬱症的症狀常與其他疾病的生理症狀重疊，所以經常被誤認為是正常老化現象而難以鑑別、診斷，也是重要原因。因此可能確實是存有黑數，而我們該怎麼樣把這群人、大概有四分之一的人，怎麼把他發掘出來，然後引導他走出來？","「憂鬱症篩檢」是提升就醫率的方法之一，並且降低精神科住院的風險。雖然憂鬱症篩檢已納入成人健檢，而且有其成效，可增加6成憂鬱症治療機會，然而考量65歲以上長者的自殺死亡率仍然偏高，因此本席建議2，除了現行透過衛生所的各種公衛宣導及服務時間，主動對社區長者進行憂鬱症篩檢，亦或是在長者住院過程中，醫院主動進行憂鬱症篩檢，亦應該再擴大辦理：","(1)長者通常會固定回診看醫生，可以比照主動提醒做癌症篩檢一樣，也提醒長者做憂鬱症篩檢。","(2)長者也會去參加各據點的活動/社區鄰里活動，例如：老人共餐、銀色奇肌等，可以透過在地里長的協助，藉由這些活動進行老人憂鬱症篩檢，並舉辦宣傳活動，使長者隨時注意自身與他人的憂鬱情緒。","(3)年長者大多沒有在工作、缺少主動收入，可想而知，免費心理諮商的需求應該是更高的，所以政府應該一視同仁，也要編列足夠的預算，讓有需要心理諮商的長者都可以比照辦理，獲得至少3次免費心理諮商。","6.明年五一勞動節是否有望全國一致性放假？","現在五一勞動節是一國三制，「差別式放假」：","(1)如果爸爸媽媽是老師或公務員，而小孩在國小以下：家長沒放假，但小孩放假。","(2)爸爸媽媽如果是勞工，而小孩就讀公立幼兒園、國小以上：公立幼兒園老師比照教職員，因此小孩照常上課，而爸媽放假。","(3)爸爸媽媽是勞工，而小孩就讀私立幼兒園：私立幼兒園老師屬於教保員，也是勞工身分，勞動節會放假，所以親子一起放假。","院長您知道很多教師5/1當天因找不到人帶孩子，不得不請自己的假。再者，勞工父母的小孩不能放假，要上學上課，形成「一家兩制」的現象，而且小孩的上下學還必須由勞工父母接送，這也形同在懲罰勞動家庭的父母，不能在勞動節當天安心去慶祝，並與自己的小孩共享天倫之樂。又或（勞工）家長想要帶小孩出去玩，就需要向學校請假，影響孩子的學習。","早在今（2024）年3月，當時的行政院院長陳建仁在立法院備詢時，就51勞動節是否全國放假，已經鬆口表示放假情形已經開過跨部會的會議，正在與民間團體溝通\n。又9月30日，行政院人事行政總處人事長蘇俊榮表示，五一放假前提為內政部針對「紀念日節日實施辦法」修改，修改完後再由人事總處更新，目前也一樣在等內政部整體的評估考量\n。","請問院長可以承諾明年五一勞動節全國一致性放假嗎？不要再擾民了！","7.「台灣好行」無縫接軌新店、深坑、石碇、坪林、烏來各景點","「台灣好行」是交通部觀光署為提供國內外自由行旅客友善、直達景點的旅遊接駁服務。民眾只要跟著路線走，就能遊遍壯麗山海、恬靜小鎮到咖啡公路。目前新北市共有5條路線：黃金福隆線、皇冠北海岸線、木柵平溪線（往十分）、木柵平溪線（往平溪）、九份金瓜石線。木柵平溪線串連了深坑、石碇到平溪，但為德不足，本席選區新店、深坑、石碇、坪林、烏來好山好水好好玩，所以可否請交通部觀光署規劃一新興路線，再度刺激旅遊需求，從捷運新店總站出發，無縫接軌深入深坑、石碇、坪林、烏來各個景點，並將觀光圈資源及產業有效整合於路線設計和旅遊商品，打造一日/二日旅遊圈（留宿烏來），以活絡在地經濟、國旅市場，並增加就業機會。","8.深坑輕軌可行性研究預計10月中提報交通部轉行政院審議","深坑輕軌（經費117.08億元）進度：歷經9次交通部退件、1次行政院退件，行政院各單位主要審查意見包括：運量預估過於樂觀、建設經費估算應依實際行情、補助經費估算應依要點規定、引用資料誤植等。現深坑輕軌可行性研究，新北市政府已就行政院所提審查意見完成修正，現正簽核中，如順利的話，預計10月中旬發文提報交通部轉行政院審議。本席懇請院長大力支持，盡速審議通過，如此深坑輕軌才能早日實現，造福地方！","地方建設","1.高地自來水問題：經濟部水利署提出的「老舊高地社區用戶加壓受水設備改善計畫」只到今年（110-113年）為止，此計畫是否繼續編列？（114-117年目前仍在報行政院審議中，114年度公務預算編列0.32億元）","據水利署統計，全台灣高地社區中，屬於台北自來水事業處的71個社區需改善工程經費初估103.3億元，屬於台灣自來水公司的55個社區需改善工程經費初估23.3億元。新店屬於北水處的業務範圍，到目前為止北水處針對新店地區老舊高地社區用戶加壓受水設備改善計畫的執行率是0%，也就是說新店高地社區沒有一件是改善完成的。高地自來水改善通常遇到的困難不外乎是居民負擔工程經費過高，以及加壓設備用地問題，本席請教院長，居民負擔比例是否能調降（20%以下）？或是設置上限（每戶5,000元～10,000元）？多出來的部分則由政府來負擔。第二個問題是加壓設備土地權屬問題，加壓設備土地多為私人產權，大多數都不願意把土地無償讓社區使用，可以制定相關辦法來使土地可執行老舊高地社區用戶加壓受水設備改善計畫。","臺北自來水事業處新北市轄區未代管自來水用水設備之高地社區工程改善經費概估統計表","2.安坑一號道路第三期（華城快速道路）：安一路三期工程對華城路上居民來說非常需要，不必到華城路與安康路路口，直接通往北二高，可紓緩華城路口上下班壅塞情形，連結灣潭重劃區，也能使碧潭對岸的交通更加便利，目前新北市政府初估預算費用約90億元，請中央給予補助、支持地方。","3.安坑一號道路延伸至土城交流道：安坑一號道路應繼續延伸至五城地區，保持40米路寬，新闢一條「安城快速道路」，接至北二高土城交流道，北二高新店、安坑交流道至中和交流道長期壅塞，車速僅有2、30公里，如果開闢安城快速道路，可以紓緩此段壅塞，而且還可以促進開發安坑五城地區。新北市政府已評估此段路線建設經費超過百億，且多處應開挖隧道，本席建議安城快速道路可以比照現國三甲模式，運用高速公路建設基金，由交通部國道新建工程局規劃施作。","安坑一號道路延伸至土城交流道（安城快速道路）路線圖","國三甲路線圖","4.提升安坑輕軌運量，盡快通過變更安坑輕軌沿線都市計畫：安坑輕軌於2023年2月10日通車至今，已經累積了超過200萬人次的運量，日均運量目前約為5,600人次，顯示出運量持續穩定增長的趨勢，運量仍在處於培養階段。針對安坑運量的培養，新北市府除了持續滾動式檢討沿線接駁公車，並持續改善安利街側溝蓋板與增繪標線行人行道，以優化K7站到陽光運動公園的人行環境與導入二叭子植物園的休閒活動；更與捷運公司推動參與式計畫，提升週邊民眾使用意願及親和度，而在年底K8站水資源博物館開館、逐步規劃相關安坑景點行程與導覽，以提供大台北居民的輕軌遊玩方案；加上，鄰K9新店十四張B單元已獲核定，以及鄰K8民間自辦開發，鄰K6、K7正推動D、H、I單元開發，未來將可促進安坑輕軌運量與永續經營。","安坑輕軌場站帶動沿線發展轉型，其中耕莘安康院區站（K4）、景文科大（K5）、安康站（K6）、陽光運動公園站（K7）等站緊鄰新店農業區D、H、I單元，將會透過TOD（Transit Oriented Development，大眾運輸導向的開發）規劃，配合農業區整體開發，提升區域發展。","變更新店都市計畫第三次通盤檢討案中的D、H、I單元，總面積共85.61公頃，未來會採區段徵收開發，可取得學校、社福及公園綠地等公共設施約36.87公頃，待新北市政府將此通盤檢討送至內政部時，本席建請加速審查，盡快通過變更安坑輕軌沿線都市計畫。","新店都市計畫第三次通盤檢討案中的D、H、I單元","新店都市計畫第三次通盤檢討案D單元    新店都市計畫第三次通盤檢討案H、I單元","5.寶高智慧園區二、三期：AI時代來臨，輝達公司股票市值破3兆，已超越蘋果成為全球第二，執行長黃仁勳是台灣人，也宣布將在台灣設立AI基地，趁著機會本席積極爭取輝達公司落地新店。新店已是北台灣智慧科技產業重鎮，技嘉和國巨總部都設立在新店，寶高園區一期已有鴻海、Garmin等大廠進駐；二期園區面積1.6萬坪，可創造總樓地板約7.8萬坪的智慧產業園區，二期交通緊鄰國道3號新店交流道，了解將會規劃兩條12米及10米計劃道路，增加產業運輸整體效能，非常歡迎輝達進駐，共同參與未來規劃。本席建請新北市政府經發局可以將相關資料透過經濟部正式向輝達發函，推薦新店寶高二期智慧園區是非常適合與優良的地點落地。","因應產業發展，本席建議應該先超前部署寶高園區三期，新店第三公墓目前限葬，正在等待遷葬，而安坑也正缺產業園區，該公墓緊鄰北二高，交通四通八達，可思考先規畫作為寶高智慧園區三期的用地，拜託經濟部可以給予支持。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請登記第52號伍麗華委員質詢。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓是美國國會助理訪問團來中華民國立法院參觀，我們掌聲歡迎，Welcome！","好，請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐富癸","陳菁徽","林宜瑾","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳永康","李昆澤","涂權吉","張智倫"],"page_start":33,"meetingDate":["2024-10-04"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00002","1137701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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院長"},{"start":204.016,"end":230.633,"text":"是 報告委員 文化部已經責定18處世界遺產的潛力點在臺灣而且他已經成立了第5屆世界遺產的推動會那麼其中就知道了這個樂生療養這一件他已經完備了相當清楚詳細的文本我們希望能夠爭取到大家對這個地點對這個過去的醫療行為所留給人類的一個記憶點做一個有效的保存那行政院會完全全力來支持文化部這樣的工作"},{"start":232.113,"end":258.323,"text":"我可以補充一下因為我們才剛剛開完一個國際論壇就是請ECMAS的7位國際專家來台灣開一個論壇然後那個論壇非常成功雖然我們不屬於聯合國的這個會員國但是推動這個議場我們就用這個方式請國際的ECMAS的專家來台灣開會然後我們馬上在10月份就召開一個第5次的一個"},{"start":260.33,"end":285.391,"text":"在這次會議中我還特別請外交部部長能不能請次長來因為他是法國的一個大使我們這個單位就在法國所以我們準備做動作我們雖然不是會員國但是我們想做動作就是尋找國外的一些聲援者至少創造話題這個事情正好是我們9月10月正在做的事情"},{"start":285.931,"end":313.097,"text":"好所以我真的要謝謝部長的說明那也要請行政院再積極來推動這個世界遺產的申請因為對歷史跟文化的尊重當然是我們首要價值可是連帶這個臺灣的國際地位也好文化觀光也好跟跨國合作的可能性我想這都會因為我們對於世界遺產的努力而獲得更大的進展那另外我想再來本席要跟院長討論中國"},{"start":321.567,"end":340.116,"text":"我們的這個鄰國中國我想賴總統在今年8月在凱達格蘭論壇開幕式裡頭有提到威權主義擴張越來越拒侵略性而且已經是這個對於全球是一個很大的挑戰"},{"start":341.056,"end":355.637,"text":"中國不僅在台海軍演也跟俄羅斯在南海日本海西太平洋都進行海空聯合軍演那我想這個破壞區域和平穩定這部分對我們實在是非常的嚴重那"},{"start":356.138,"end":380.164,"text":"除了傳統的軍事威脅以外當然中國同時也將貿易武器化那對各國進行一些經濟脅迫利用網路啊科技啊擴張數位這種極權主義來影響全球的民主發展那我想近期一個引起各位注意的就是說中國的這些擴張除了國對國的威脅外他也因為用長年的這種"},{"start":381.364,"end":381.904,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":406.55,"end":421.731,"text":"被砍傷的事件﹖不到3個月﹖9月18號又有一名中國﹖就讀中國深圳日本人學校的10歲的男童也在上學的途中被一名中國的男子砍死"},{"start":422.873,"end":439.599,"text":"那所以日本的首相石破茂有對於這些事情發表非常沉痛的憤怒跟表達不滿那我想請教院長怎麼看待日本人在中國遭殺害的這個事件那這樣的野蠻事件你又有什麼樣的譴責"},{"start":442.01,"end":468.415,"text":"謝謝委員不僅日本人前幾天我們看到中國的遊客在臺北針對香港的民族人士也做出非常不禮貌的一個動作那同時我們看到在南海中國對鄰近的國家也進行一些這個傳播武力上的一些對峙跟挑釁所以我認為這個是全面性的是中國在徒稱霸世界的過程的開始"},{"start":469.775,"end":498.154,"text":"但是用仇恨的教育他只會喪失理性用仇恨的教育也只會威脅和平所以我們看歷史來看用仇恨來教導人民來窮兵黷武對外做任何擴張的軍事行動到最後終究是這個領導人會遭受到世界歷史的唾棄這個是很嚴重的事實也是不可抹滅的事實我也希望中國的領導人能夠看清這一件他們現在自己"},{"start":498.954,"end":517.391,"text":"力圖成為經濟大國應該把自己的經濟搞好力圖成為世界的政治大國不應該用仇恨的教育應該用包容用合作共榮的方式才能得到大家在區域和平之後能夠理性的來討論對世界人類和平的最大的貢獻"},{"start":518.563,"end":540.29,"text":"對 當然那 綠黨看得非常清楚因為中國對台灣的這個侵略惡行當然是一直是明目張膽的那他對世界各國也如此對台灣更是如此那所以我想我們對於中國這樣的不管是中國公民的這個言語暴力也好或者是中國對於整個台灣的這個惡行我想我們都要有所防範"},{"start":541.01,"end":562.905,"text":"所以在今年6月27日陸委會就已經有對於中國的旅遊警示這個有橙色的警示那也就是提醒國人應避免非必要的旅行那理由是因為中國政府近年來已經威脅到嚴重威脅到國人的人身安全那我想本席想要請教就是說"},{"start":563.973,"end":564.233,"text":"陸委會有什麼樣的因應方式?"},{"start":578.603,"end":603.32,"text":"會員提醒國人的非常感謝委員關切這一點近期中國大陸為了刺激他們的消費特別是為了增加更多的旅遊推出了包括景點免費、低價團等等的一些優惠措施不過我們這邊還是要呼籲國人復路最重要的是人身自由安全的風險是"},{"start":605.201,"end":632.21,"text":"比如說您剛提到我們在6月底發布的這個旅遊警示最主要是針對6月21號他們發布的審讀22條意見這個對國人的人身自由安全的風險影響甚大這個法律基本上它界定的非常模糊而且設計上也充滿的各種不文明的制度包括"},{"start":635.151,"end":659.577,"text":"長臂管轄、終身追訴、缺席審判以及判處死刑還有沒收財產這些相當不文明的制度設計所以我們加上又鼓勵舉報所以我們呼籲國人復入要關注自己的人身安全的風險評估是不是復入港澳有它的必要性如果決定一定要去的話"},{"start":661.237,"end":661.317,"text":"五一勞動節"},{"start":690.416,"end":710.817,"text":"委員長我想我跟您討論五一勞動節全國一致放假的問題已經從蘇貞昌院長到陳建仁院長到您卓院長上一次的會期我有跟您討論過那我本來以為經過大家長期的討論這下倡議原本快要獲得了這個確實的那我想"},{"start":711.778,"end":728.77,"text":"不曉得為什麼徒踩煞車搞得大家也都人仰馬翻院長 行政院認為把全國兩大群人無數的家庭放假日不一致到底有什麼樣的意義每次談到無一勞動節行政院就會說"},{"start":732.533,"end":750.727,"text":"是依據公務員服務法公務員一整年的放假天數是115到116天那目前已經達到上限請教院長你這樣的說法到底是依據現行的公務員服務法的第幾條又是哪一年修法的 院長"},{"start":752.388,"end":773.758,"text":"這個是公務員服務法第11條他是在89年6月就三讀通過的內容就是115天到116天但是我們最近這兩天為了要放假不放假的事情搞得大家都非常的不安很焦慮我覺得全國公務員也好包括所有的國人在什麼時候"},{"start":775.019,"end":785.158,"text":"該怎麼樣放假 有怎麼樣來決定地方該負待於地方的責任 中央會來協助那這件事情我想我們就統一來看看規劃將來朝一個更合理的方向來思考"},{"start":785.865,"end":806.26,"text":"因為剛剛院長您提到公務員服務法這個你說是89年那就是2000年可是可能院長你可能沒有理解沒有弔詭的是說在2022年公務員服務法有做過全委的修正"},{"start":807.08,"end":822.225,"text":"所以該項的所謂的115到116天的休假日上限他是一個附帶決議他的原條文已經被修正不復存在了所以這樣的一個附帶決議行政院還在遵守這個條文在2022"},{"start":825.047,"end":842.146,"text":"公務員服務法已經經過修正了這個看起來院長沒有掌握所以你們還宣稱依照這樣的一個附帶決議來處理公務員的休假那院長我想今天這場質詢包含公教人員在內的全國勞動者都在看"},{"start":842.887,"end":862.233,"text":"五一要不要全面放假實際上我覺得這是最表面的問題可是政府應該不容閃躲的核心爭議是在我們該如何看待勞動人權的普世價值我想當台灣被背負的所謂的過勞之島的罪名的時候我想政府卻持續帶頭破壞勞動者的團結"},{"start":865.049,"end":885.085,"text":"我們把所謂的受薪者階級硬生生把它分成兩塊一塊叫做勞工一塊叫做非勞工公教人員就是非勞工那勞保就是勞工然後用這樣切分勞工與非勞工的錯誤概念然後來用紀念勞動者團結的這一天來刻意的彰顯出來院長不覺得很諷刺嗎"},{"start":886.286,"end":886.706,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":908.968,"end":909.008,"text":"對勞動人權的維護"},{"start":938.404,"end":938.824,"text":"好 謝謝林宜瑾委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:01:42 - 15:17:47","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155062","gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（15時2分）謝謝院長，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：院長好。我想挺臺灣已經是世界潮流，不僅美國、澳洲、荷蘭、義大利都紛紛正式表態，拒絕中國惡意扭曲聯大第2758號決議，世界各國也紛紛支持擴大臺灣的國際參與。置身這樣的一個歷史時刻，該如何好好的把握來積極行動，我想是政府跟全體國人的重大課題，所以在此時此刻，我們都應該是務實的外交工作者。務實意味著我們要清楚認知中國頑劣的外交封鎖，並且我們必須要尋求突破點，跨越國界的醫療發展跟世界級的文化資產，我想這是全人類共享，而且共同維護的價值，同時也是發揮臺灣軟實力的最佳場域。","所以今天本席要跟院長提到的正是集醫療跟文資這兩大價值於一身，2009年就被遴選為臺灣世界遺產潛力點的樂生療養院。聯合國教科文組織ICOMOS的前副主席西村幸夫指出，樂生療養院符合世界遺產公約執行作業要點中的提名原則，也就是說如果由國際組織來申請發動，再請臺灣納入跨國申請的地址之一，可能是應對臺灣國際處境一個相當好的解套。因為漢生病患受到的歧視跟隔離的歷史，是普世的經驗，更是全球重要的人權問題，所以一旦提出申請，我想審查的國家也不會用國家的定位為理由來拒絕受理。","衛福部邱泰源部長也說過，樂生療養院代表臺灣醫療史的重要發展，衛福部、文化部跟教育部應該要聯合起來，才能將這段歷史可以完整的呈現，所以想請教卓院長，樂生院申請世界遺產的工作，不曉得現在做了多少的努力？未來院長如何透過行政院的高度整合各部會，包括衛福部、教育部、文化部以及外交部，努力爭取世界遺產的申請？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，報告委員，文化部已經在臺灣擇定18處世界遺產潛力點，而且它已經成立了第5屆世界遺產的推動會，其中我們知道樂生療養這一件已經完備相當清楚詳細的文本，我們希望能夠爭取大家對這個地點，對過去的醫療行為所留給人類的一個記憶點做有效的保存。行政院會全力支持文化部這樣的工作，細節可以再請教部長。"],["李部長遠：我可以補充一下。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["李部長遠：因為我們才剛剛開完一個國際論壇，就是請ICOMOS的7位國際專家來臺灣開一個論壇，論壇非常成功，雖然我們不屬於聯合國的會員國，但是我們就用這個方式推動遺產，請國際ICOMOS的專家來臺灣開會。接著我們馬上在10月份就召開第五次會議，並且在這次會議中，我還特別請外交部部長協調能不能請次長來，因為他曾是法國的大使，而這個單位就在法國，所以我們準備做動作。我們雖然不是會員國，但是我們想做動作尋找國外的一些聲援者，至少創造話題，這個正好是我們9月、10月正在做的事情。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝部長的說明，也要請行政院再積極來推動世界遺產的申請。因為對歷史跟文化的尊重當然是我們首要價值，可是連帶臺灣的國際地位也好，文化觀光也好，跟跨國合作的可能性，我想都會因為我們對於世界遺產的努力而獲得更大的進展。","另外，本席要跟院長討論中國。有關我們的鄰國中國，賴總統在今年8月在凱達格蘭論壇開幕式裡頭有提到，威權主義擴張越來越具侵略性，而且已經對於全球是一個很大的挑戰。中國不僅在臺海軍演，也跟俄羅斯在南海、日本海、西太平洋都進行海空聯合軍演，破壞區域和平穩定，這個部分對我們的威脅實在是非常的嚴重。除了傳統的軍事威脅以外，中國同時也將貿易武器化，對各國進行一些經濟脅迫，利用網路、科技、擴張數位這種極權主義來影響全球的民主發展。近期更引起各位注意的就是中國的擴張除了國對國的威脅外，它也因為長年用仇恨教育跟政治宣傳，導致部分中國人會個別用暴力的手段來宣洩他們所被教導的一些所謂的國仇家恨，所以有一些案例發生，像6月24號中國蘇州就發生了一起母子被砍傷的事件；不到三個月在9月18號，又有一名就讀中國深圳日本人學校的10歲男童，也在上學途中被一名中國的男子砍死，日本的首相石破茂對於這些事情發表非常沉痛的憤怒跟表達不滿。我想請教院長，怎麼看待日本人在中國遭殺害的事件？對這樣的野蠻事件，你又有什麼樣的譴責？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，不僅日本人，前幾天我們看到中國的遊客在臺北，針對香港的民主人士也做出非常不禮貌的動作；同時我們看到在南海，中國對鄰近的國家也進行船舶武力上的一些對峙跟挑釁，所以我認為這個是全面性的，是中國在圖稱霸世界過程的開始。但是用仇恨的教育只會喪失理性，用仇恨的教育也只會威脅和平，所以我們從歷史來看，用仇恨教導人民窮兵黷武對外做任何擴張的軍事行動，到最後這個領導人終究會遭受到世界歷史的唾棄，這個是很嚴重也是不可抹滅的事實，我也希望中國的領導人能夠看清這一切。他們現在力圖成為經濟大國，應該把自己的經濟搞好；意圖成為世界的政治大國，不應該用仇恨教育，應該用包容、合作共榮的方式，大家才能在區域和平之後理性討論，得到對世界人類和平的最大貢獻。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，院長看得非常清楚，因為中國對臺灣的侵略惡行一直是明目張膽的，他們對世界各國也如此，對臺灣更是如此，所以不管是對於中國公民的言語暴力也好，或者是中國對於整個臺灣的惡行，我想我們都要有所防範。","今年6月27日，陸委會就已經對於中國的旅遊警示有橙色警示，也就是提醒國人應避免非必要的旅行，理由是因為中國政府近年來已經嚴重威脅到國人的人身安全，本席想要請教，針對中國近期為了吸引臺灣的首來族而祭出中國各個景點一年內免門票的優惠，陸委會有什麼樣的因應方式？會怎麼樣提醒國人？"],["邱主任委員垂正：非常感謝委員關切這點，近期中國大陸為了刺激他們的消費，特別是為了增加更多的旅遊，推出了包括景點免費、低價團等等的優惠措施，不過我們還是要呼籲國人赴陸最重要的是注意人身自由安全的風險。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["邱主任委員垂正：您剛剛提到我們在6月底發布的旅遊警示，最主要是針對6月21號他們發布的懲獨二十二條意見，這對國人的人身自由安全風險影響甚大，這個法律基本上界定的非常模糊，而且設計上也充滿了各種不文明的制度，包括長臂管轄、終身追訴、缺席審判，以及判處死刑，還有沒收財產這些相當不文明的制度設計，加上又鼓勵舉報，所以我們呼籲國人赴陸要關注自己的人身安全風險，評估是不是赴陸、港、澳有其必要性，如果絕對、一定要去的話，在行前能夠在陸委會的網站（赴陸港澳動態登錄系統）登錄您的聯絡方式，當有事情的話，以便我們可以給予即時的協助。"],["林委員宜瑾：可以掌握……好，謝謝主委。","最後要跟院長再討論一下五一勞動節。"],["主席：請勞動部部長備詢。"],["林委員宜瑾：院長，我想跟您討論五一勞動節全國一致放假的問題，已經從蘇貞昌院長、陳建仁院長到卓院長，上一次的會期我也有跟您討論過，我本來以為經過大家長期的討論，這項倡議原本快要獲得了確實，不曉得為什麼突踩煞車，搞得大家人仰馬翻。院長，行政院認為把全國分兩大群人，無數的家庭放假日不一致，到底有什麼意義？每次談到五一勞動節，行政院就會說是依據公務員服務法，公務員一整年的放假天數是115到116天，目前已經達到上限。我想請教院長，你這樣的說法，到底是依據現行公務員服務法的第幾條？又是哪一年修法的？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是公務員服務法第十一條，它是在89年6月三讀通過，內容就是115天到116天。最近這兩天為了要放假、不放假的事情搞得大家都非常的不安、很焦慮，我覺得全國公務員也好，包括所有的國人在什麼時候該怎麼樣放假、怎麼樣決定，地方該負擔地方的責任，中央會來協助，這件事情我想我們統一規劃，將來朝更合理的方向來思考。"],["林委員宜瑾：剛剛院長提到公務員服務法，您說是89年，那就是2000年嘛！可是院長可能沒有理解，弔詭的是，在2022年公務員服務法有做過全文的修正。該項所謂的115到116天的休假日上限，它是一個附帶決議，它的原條文已經被修正、不復存在了，這樣一個附帶決議行政院還在遵守，這個條文2022年公務員服務法已經修正了，這個部分看起來院長沒有掌握，所以你們還宣稱依照這樣一個附帶決議來處理公務員的休假。","院長，我想今天這場質詢，包含公教人員在內的全國勞動者都在看，五一要不要全面放假，實際上我覺得這是最表面的問題，可是政府應該不容閃躲的核心爭議是在我們該如何看待勞動人權的普世價值。當臺灣背負著所謂過勞之島罪名的時候，政府卻持續帶頭破壞勞動者團結，把所謂受薪者階級硬生生分成兩塊，一塊叫做勞工，一塊叫做非勞工，公教人員就是非勞工，勞保的就是勞工，用這樣切分勞工與非勞工的錯誤概念，然後用紀念勞動者團結的這一天來刻意的彰顯出來，院長不覺得很諷刺嗎？院長上次跟我回答，也跟其他委員回答，要來尋求社會的共識。我想問的是，五一勞動節全面放假，需要的社會共識是什麼？請院長回答我；政府又打算如何權衡社會共識？當牽涉到勞動團結跟勞動人權大是大非的時候，政府不可以沒有立場，如果是一個沒有立場的政府，那人民要怎麼樣信任你？政府要照顧包含公教人員在內的廣大勞動階級，這才是有為的政府，所以我覺得還是一個態度跟價值的問題。請院長回答我，你說要尋求社會共識，要怎麼樣尋求？"],["卓院長榮泰：對勞動人權的維護，政府向來是很積極的，以後也不會改變。這個共識就是我們希望社會各個領域、各個族群，能夠一併來談我的假日怎麼辦、別人的假日怎麼辦，能夠有一套標準。我剛剛承諾過委員，包括最近的放假問題，我們會請人總繼續跟地方政府做很好的溝通，我們希望能夠有一個合理的解釋給大家。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第51號羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra 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陳委員好院長請看但是我相信你也都知道啦山土耳颱風還有最近這從7月開始的兩個颱風衝擊我們南台灣盛聚在這邊必須要拜託院長全力協助我們災後的重建復原還有損害可以從寬任列"},{"start":41.985,"end":65.419,"text":"對 院長您有在網路上看到許多像我們南部的房子臨時的建材在17級的陣風之下抵擋不住所以本席在這邊也接獲了非常多的陳情他在路上不管是騎機車或開車但是會有東西從天而降這種臨時的建材中央對於未來我們風災的因應有沒有什麼解方"},{"start":66.346,"end":92.068,"text":"是的 這個昨天一整天在網路在電視新聞上都一再的看到整個屋頂被掀開甚至貨櫃廠的貨櫃一個一個像火柴盒一樣被翻落那這個都是將近17期強風所在來的我覺得這個是過去很少見的一個狀況我們希望從現在開始地方政府也能夠跟市民"},{"start":92.628,"end":116.573,"text":"好好的去宣導如何加強整個屋頂那種違建的能夠處理掉那合法房屋能夠把屋頂加強所以也請中央政府可能在災前的會議裡面可以加進這個項目希望他們可以在臨時建材做一些預防性的處理這次這個氣象署跟整個應變中心一直在提醒說南部雨可能沒有像過去那麼大但風一定會很強"},{"start":117.273,"end":122.336,"text":"本期執行完之後也要立刻再前往南部也在這邊非常感謝我們的官員還有國軍弟兄警消同仁醫護人員清潔人員還有第一線的救災人員辛苦院長也謝謝大家"},{"start":138.865,"end":140.946,"text":"院長講到員警今年7月這個觸目驚心的新聞一位三重的黃姓員警遭獨駕的男子撞死請問具體我們加強的作為為何呢"},{"start":167.298,"end":193.941,"text":"類似這樣的案件不只這一件 最近也有另外一件在吐沉我們覺得 原警在執行任務的時候 非常的危險自身的安全 從警政署以下 要好好的再做一個教育任何安全要放在最優先的地位來做思考所以我想內政部跟警政署都以這樣的案例 一再發生深深的引以為戒希望能夠真的要進一步去照顧到安全"},{"start":195.157,"end":223.679,"text":"所以我們看到剛剛院長有提到三個月內有兩位員警被同樣的一種毒品叫做Ethomidate所製那第二位更是觸目驚心因為全國的國人有看到他是被脫形了被脫形了數百公尺這樣子的畫面三重的這位員警他有一位小孩只有4歲那這個清水派出所的所長非常優秀他本來是老師"},{"start":224.82,"end":226.461,"text":"院長在這邊真的很希望您可以"},{"start":251.578,"end":252.199,"text":"趙氏的兇手都已經罰判我們希望能夠速審速判"},{"start":271.093,"end":273.615,"text":"內政部有沒有這樣的信息?手頭上的這個資料但是比以往多"},{"start":299.127,"end":311.904,"text":"我跟各位報告今年的數據這也是今天早上我最新詢問相關單位今年到現在還沒有過完已經有9位員警自殺離世我們統計過去"},{"start":315.347,"end":341.398,"text":"112年以前過去10年加起來是52位所以今年到達9位已經監察院來函要求必須要改善了所以大家看到獨駕把他們脫行的新聞明明出去合法的執法還有像這樣子每個月幾乎都有警察自強又冒上媒體怎麼還會有人願意讓自己的小孩或是家人身陷這樣子的險境"},{"start":344.36,"end":360.271,"text":"報告委員我想有幾點第一個我們一定要深自檢討您剛所提到說因公殉職的兩位員警我們在前一陣子在預告之後把因公殉職的條件已經提高了再來就是我有到靈堂去跟他們的父母還有家人致意"},{"start":360.891,"end":362.452,"text":"毒蟲所吸用的一坨米子的部分目前為止法務部當然把它列為是三級的毒品"},{"start":379.804,"end":380.024,"text":"心理壓力非常大"},{"start":396.912,"end":397.192,"text":"衛福部專業"},{"start":418.493,"end":420.615,"text":"本席提醒因為醫療專業所以有詢問非常多的毒癮專家"},{"start":437.506,"end":437.546,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":467.546,"end":487.174,"text":"但是呢這個增長的速度有多快去年新北市只有查驗到13件但是今年到6月就暴增到49件而且有發現有兩成是未成年所以這種喪屍的毒品在青少年族群中傳播如何杜絕毒品入校是重中之重"},{"start":488.254,"end":508.057,"text":"我也很希望部長還有教育部部長以及這個內政部部長院長你們有時間可以走走到我們鬧區或是到我們各級學校放學的時間你會發現現在的年輕人可能人手一支電子煙雖然電子煙還是違法的拿在手上掛在脖子上未為一種風潮"},{"start":509.238,"end":536.111,"text":"那這些第一線的員警也有講到說好這件事是怎麼形成的他們取得這樣子非法的藥品或是毒品他一點點加進他的電子菸他會馬上有飄飄然的這種現象所以對他們來說是一個很便宜的毒品的改造所以他們聚集起來吸毒吸完以後騎機車難免就會發生很這個一害到我們行人安全的現象那我想問說"},{"start":537.732,"end":549.108,"text":"為什麼在台灣是一個管制的藥然後甚至你們已經列管成毒品還有這麼多人可以輕易的就可以持有呢我們有什麼具體的作為可以做呢"},{"start":551.216,"end":568.261,"text":"報告委員我想是這樣我剛有特別提到我們希望依托彌子有時候在市面上可能叫做喪屍煙彈的部分可以杜絕所以我們現在在上一次兩位殉職員警過後我也非常謝謝新北市的警察局他們在短暫時間內已經先找到這個毒蟲"},{"start":569.301,"end":569.821,"text":"竹蟲已經要尋上溯源﹖"},{"start":599.381,"end":621.998,"text":"你現在這個藥檢的試劑你有辦法驗出所有的新型毒品嗎當他去盤查的時候有辦法嗎沒有那麼快對沒有辦法所以我希望院長可以協助第一我們要給他武器嘛我們要給他必要的資源還要給他額外的津貼對嗎他是不是應該要有必要的津貼因為他的工作項目越來越繁雜"},{"start":623.138,"end":643.206,"text":"我們應該從生活跟勤務各方面來檢討現在工作上遇到的一些工作瓶頸那是不是也可以請院長全權來督導盤點更新他們的氣毒設備並且這個食藥署也應該要加入對於新興毒品各個單位教育部加強的查緝防治可不可以做到呢"},{"start":643.772,"end":644.072,"text":"以及校園"},{"start":663.374,"end":685.778,"text":"以及校園最後我也想提醒院長這個不只是毒價藥價毒價還有酒價還有藥價其實是越來越嚴重我看到審計部的報告有納入藥價的防治檢討根據推估每年因藥價造成交通事故死亡人數是高達300多人是高過酒價的致死人數所以這邊也請院長檢討現行的道安規則還有處罰條例相關規定好嗎"},{"start":690.626,"end":691.126,"text":"如果執法的強度"},{"start":706.792,"end":722.344,"text":"或是這個刑責的強度提高有效的來減少這樣的案件的話我想各方的意見我們都會深入的解答我們真的很不希望再看到這樣子的憾事所以我也會針對剛才我提出的5點就一個月再請各位提出報告謝謝兩位部長"},{"start":724.659,"end":747.143,"text":"接下來我們要請這個衛福部 邱部長謝謝衛福部呢今年5月14號人工生殖法預告日期已經結束了所以我相信其實在這邊已經有很多委員問過了很多大家引起期盼包括人工生殖包括其他的為什麼行政院還是遲遲都還沒有把最新的版本送進我們立法院呢"},{"start":748.326,"end":764.229,"text":"預告的期間已經滿了但是現在各方的意見還相當的多元在繼續的溝通當中我相信立法院其實就代表民意因為大家從各個的各行各業各個選區過來所以如果可以到立法院來做出"},{"start":764.65,"end":766.491,"text":"對的 委員部長答覆之前跟委員報告我們也認為在目前這個時代"},{"start":786.604,"end":814.418,"text":"整個社會的需求人工生殖法我們應該用正面非常正面積極看它所以我們願意來跟各界做更好的溝通那溝通的細節部長比較清楚好 謝謝好 報告委員那我們供7月31號完成供預告以後那因為意見很多所以我們蒐集的各意見也邀請了醫學護全而且倫理及法醫專家以及相關的社會的部會召開了5次以上的一個會議來討論"},{"start":816.172,"end":827.6,"text":"那近視將依法治的程序現在先說現在在衛福部的法規會如果應該在10月底可以報請報到行政院"},{"start":828.328,"end":830.429,"text":"這也是這個禮拜以來許許多多醫療院所很擔心的早上我有提到說誰在颱風天出情"},{"start":853.82,"end":869.202,"text":"醫師醫護人員醫事人員就是其中之一啊他們不會風雨好醫院所有的維生系統很多是24小時要開的他沒有辦法節能省電他就是要開著另外手術室他要維持低溫才能降低感染率"},{"start":869.462,"end":869.502,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":885.163,"end":904.994,"text":"但是這個禮拜電價審議會的新聞是反反覆覆一下說10月16號以後醫療院所就要漲14%一下又說現在可能你動漲那請問各位對於醫療院所以前我們還有電費的補貼或者是動漲大家對於10月16號之後的態度是如何呢請郭部長說明之前我們認為各位委員報告基本的態度是"},{"start":912.814,"end":936.027,"text":"醫療院所不會增加他的負擔那至於他的電費以前是由台電來吸收那未來我們要想用什麼方式來做助理但是原則就是不會增加醫療院所的負擔所以你的意思是說這14%院長會幫我們想辦法請部長來答報告委員我們這一次就是基本上醫療院所就是不漲"},{"start":939.651,"end":953.859,"text":"謝謝,謝謝各位今天給我們一個很明確的答案否則全國關心這件事的人要提心吊膽一直要等到10月16號才會有消息啊沒有啦,我們有公告啊昨天大家都在風災當中昨天部長就已經公布了謝謝國務部長"},{"start":961.004,"end":978.443,"text":"我覺得已經太多委員問過了所以我也不再多說太多但是上個禮拜因為很多委員真的很擔心您的意志很堅強說一定可以在明年6月前達到0.95但是院長有時候對外受訪又說財政這樣真的有點困難"},{"start":979.344,"end":1004.43,"text":"當然最近新聞都有看到說我們上次討論要700億才能達成但是編列的預算顯然就沒有到所以今天本席也想要一起幫大家來思考我們有什麼開源節流的方法可以一起協助部長因為部長上禮拜回答陳玉珍委員你說到分級醫療開源節流改善就醫習慣都是您的方針是嗎要多管齊下"},{"start":1005.626,"end":1019.743,"text":"好,報告委員,我想我們真的非常感謝我們行政院,尤其院長、副院長對於我們健康的投資,特別在健保這邊的協助方案是有史以來最高的,我必須要先講清楚,但是"},{"start":1022.384,"end":1043.942,"text":"那要達到說我們所謂的0.95當然還要更多的努力我不是說一定能夠達到我是說我們會盡量努力而且醫療體系真的跟我講他們很感動那個行政院這麼的幫忙所以他們也要自己管理自己嘛譬如說我們做有效的管理當然有效的管理不是隨便的合山那種"},{"start":1045.783,"end":1065.715,"text":"還有整個醫療制度的改變,分級醫療的確實我們等一下也一起來回顧一下,您之前擔任委員,我知道您對於浮動點值、平均點值、攤扣、斷頭其實您都有很多的想法,也質詢過薛睿源部長,我們也稍微看一下這總量成本都不止0.8,財政部給我們的成本就0.8,你可以基層0.81,你可以基層0.1、0.7多少你知道他怎麼經營?"},{"start":1071.947,"end":1075.469,"text":"對,部長您講得很清楚我們現在面對的問題就是"},{"start":1099.193,"end":1122.145,"text":"為了達到目標點子0.92、0.93又開始了您以前講到的斷頭、彈扣這樣子的行為好 距離您之前當委員的時候 知道現在的醫療院所又多了哪些多了通膨 多了電價的調漲 雖然剛剛說可能一度不用多了碳盤查 多了基本工資的調漲 多了護理人員的出走"},{"start":1123.587,"end":1123.687,"text":"發言委員 這個"},{"start":1153.131,"end":1158.852,"text":"攤客或者是斷頭這個都是各區他們自己自主性的一個"},{"start":1159.952,"end":1185.297,"text":"其實健保署等於是跟醫界這邊的簽約是自主管理所以他有不同的方式但套一句您剛剛講的要人家怎麼運營說實在的一群醫護人員他今年開始他的業務他可能沒有辦法預期醫療利用率老齡化的現象或是新型傳染病所以他到他今年的業務結束以後第一他要先看你的浮動點子是多少"},{"start":1185.657,"end":1187.478,"text":"當然我在當立法委員的時候一定是跟議事團體聽他們的心聲然後我們覺得有道理要再爭取"},{"start":1215.385,"end":1229.474,"text":"我們當然就是把他們的意見講出來然後盡量爭取那這段期間其實我們可以看到行政院的還有相關的長官們真的非常努力在希望我們不但要創造"},{"start":1230.815,"end":1231.115,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":1245.72,"end":1245.82,"text":"法務部長備詢"},{"start":1274.947,"end":1275.108,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":1284.016,"end":1313.09,"text":"所以呢這個攤扣既然沒有法源的依據也沒有很強烈在所有的健保法相關法規裡面我也想請教法務部部長的意見根據我們釋字443號解釋他是不是有剝奪我們生命限制人民身體自由或者是有這個我們其他自由權利的限制者應該有法律來加以規範了因為他等於是變相把一個應得的酬勞再加出來還給政府這很明顯就是侵害到人民的"},{"start":1329.801,"end":1342.429,"text":"院長我也很希望您回去可以花點時間研究一下當你想要把帳面上做得很漂亮但是你在私底下用了很多的手段讓他的帳面好看其實你沒有辦法"},{"start":1343.129,"end":1343.369,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":1365.202,"end":1365.402,"text":"主席"},{"start":1381.065,"end":1383.826,"text":"上禮拜您回應陳玉珍委員說分級醫療就是一個很好的方法我盤點了過去106到113年我們總共是編列了530億"},{"start":1401.95,"end":1419.903,"text":"花在分級醫療﹚結果呢我們下轉的案件是負成長再來齁從基層醫療到區域醫院到醫學中心就醫的比例是一棟也不動那你們今年還要再編列預算的話如果是用一樣的老方法覺得有效嗎"},{"start":1420.839,"end":1424.28,"text":"推行分級醫療轉整制度都推行的非常有限那未來我是希望說推行分級醫療"},{"start":1443.528,"end":1456.06,"text":"這個預算拜託可以真的看到一點點成效好嗎因為過去8年是不動如山我想不只是說分級門診可以減少多少錢不只是這樣子而已應該用更好的一個方式來推"},{"start":1456.967,"end":1474.643,"text":"這個也是我們希望可以幫邱委員現在當邱部長落實的其實最近在開很多公聽會我們會發現說好癌症性要精心審查裡面有一大部分是拿來做篩檢篩檢呢你就會發現如果你篩檢一半肺癌大腸癌在前期跟篩檢一半是在晚期"},{"start":1475.143,"end":1499.72,"text":"他後面的醫療支出是天差地遠所以之前邱委員就提出說自費的健康檢查特別扣除額本席也覺得其實可以因為如果你沒有鼓勵大家可以在初期的時候就篩檢出來你背後的費用是更為龐大所以院長可以在這邊拜託您回去跟我們財政部部長一個月內進行這個可行性的研擬嗎"},{"start":1502.672,"end":1527.025,"text":"這是一個非常值得去研議的一個觀點如果能夠提前篩檢出來比如說我們最近做了一些很多像癌症的篩檢乳癌它可以提前篩檢出來但治療的成效卻不是像我們想像那麼好這可能我們治療的過程當中可能要用新的方式但是總是鼓勵大家能夠提前我們現在最多的肺癌大腸癌這兩項在前期它只要開刀治療的成效非常的好"},{"start":1527.585,"end":1528.105,"text":"高雄關於觀光教育還有行人安全的"},{"start":1544.991,"end":1545.151,"text":"相關部會首長請備詢"},{"start":1563.513,"end":1563.893,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1593.573,"end":1610.655,"text":"好 這個這一間廁所在沖馬桶另外一間的水會沖到你的屁股還有它這個滴水啊上面下面已經連成一個鐘乳石這樣子的奇景了我真的很希望各位可以花點時間去看看這是我會刊親眼所及啊"},{"start":1611.115,"end":1638.263,"text":"我聽說教育部在7月的時候又提報了一筆80億的廁所預算聽說行政院9月26拿到審核的結果是不是想知道說80億什麼時候可以讓教育部拿到位因為我們高雄的市政府都已經撥好地方必須要付的福山國小明德國小新甲國小等等的案例都準備好配合的錢只需要教育部行政院一個點頭學校就可以馬上施工而不是讓這些小朋友從念小學一直等到畢業廁所都還沒好"},{"start":1639.446,"end":1665.394,"text":"跟委員報告過去8年我們投入了83.5億114 115 116 3年我們編列了81希望能夠整建2670間70棟的老舊廁所能夠注意到公共設施或是學校廁所的這個問題都跟我一樣我們都有一種屁啊 潔癖之類的所以這81什麼時候教育部可以拿到我們已經編列了明年預算一通過我們就馬上可以請教育部長來指導"},{"start":1666.181,"end":1691.306,"text":"是謝謝委員的一個關心：確實上一次委員所關心的學校：那我們也循這一個程序：這一個跟行政院：院長來報告那院長也非常的這一個：覺得這是一個非常重要的：影響到學生的學習品質：所以院長在上個禮拜已經批"},{"start":1694.079,"end":1698.304,"text":"我更希望他優先用到真正快速趕快需要改善的地方請委員能夠提供"},{"start":1712.078,"end":1737.177,"text":"謝謝我們接下來請陳部長還有陳主委齁這個連池潭是我們高雄很重要的觀光景點也是這個禮拜風災重創的但是據我所知有一筆這個補助2268元的風景區營造工程啊觀光署對於高雄市提報的預算書圖有意見所以在這邊可不可以特別跟陳部長拜託一下在地方政府修正他的書圖的同時可不可以允許他們同時的工程招標呢"},{"start":1738.15,"end":1757.816,"text":"報告委員他們預計在10月9號也就是下個禮拜會辦理工程上網招標的公告10月9號就會來進行謝謝部長那我也請陳主委就發揮您的專業可以在他們整個標案設計發包工程建案等等的順暢度可以協助他們好嗎謝謝主委可以"},{"start":1759.429,"end":1786.509,"text":"謝謝接下來是跟我們劉部長比較相關而且是劉部長非常熟悉的區域啊這個行人安全四年四百億行人安全的這個計畫有很多都是在學校周邊都是劉部長非常熟悉的那我知道說這個第二第三已經獲得公路局通過但是第一個因為跟中央道路無關所以推回給國土署可不可以請劉部長在這邊幫忙我們國土署可以接到這個作為審查的第一順位呢"},{"start":1787.089,"end":1788.752,"text":"跟委員補充報告"},{"start":1800.438,"end":1803.159,"text":"10月1號審查第一順位有沒有什麼好消息可以提供給我們"},{"start":1828.769,"end":1829.23,"text":"陳菁威委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:30:46 - 15:01:33","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155061","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（14時30分）主席、各位官員，想請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：院長請看，我相信你也都知道，山陀兒颱風還有最近從7月開始的兩個颱風衝擊南臺灣甚鉅，在這邊必須要拜託院長全力協助我們災後的重建復原，還有損害可以從寬認列。院長，你有在網路上看到許多像南部房子臨時的建材，在17級陣風之下抵擋不住，所以本席在這邊也接獲了非常多的陳情，他在路上不管是騎機車或開車，都會有臨時的建材、東西從天而降，中央對於未來我們風災的因應有沒有什麼解方？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。昨天一整天在網路、在電視新聞上都一再看到整個屋頂被掀開，甚至貨櫃場的貨櫃一個一個像火柴盒一樣被翻落，這個都是將近17級強風所帶來的，我覺得這是過去很少見的一個狀況。"],["陳委員菁徽：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望從現在開始，地方政府也能夠跟市民好好地去宣導……"],["陳委員菁徽：宣導。"],["卓院長榮泰：如何加強整個屋頂，將違建的部分能夠處理掉，讓合法房屋能夠把屋頂加強。"],["陳委員菁徽：也請中央政府可能在災前的會議裡面，可以加進這個項目……"],["卓院長榮泰：有！"],["陳委員菁徽：希望他們可以對臨時建材做一些預防性的處理，以免在……"],["卓院長榮泰：這次氣象署跟應變中心一直在提醒，南部的雨可能沒有像過去那麼大，但風一定會很強，包括電力受損的部分一定要提前加強，結果事實也證明了，現在電力還沒有完全恢復，民宅的部分更是嚴重。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，對！本席質詢完之後，也要立刻再前往南部，也在這邊非常感謝我們的官員，還有國軍弟兄、警消同仁、醫護人員、清潔人員及第一線的救災人員，辛苦院長，也謝謝大家！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們一直在安排，甚至我本來想今天晚上就下去，但怕影響到大家。"],["陳委員菁徽：是！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我可能明天會一整天安排屏東、高雄，如果時間安排上可以的話，一定到現場去看，馬上給予任何的協助。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，需要院長關心我們，謝謝！","院長講到員警，今年7月一則怵目驚心的新聞，一位三重的黃姓員警遭毒駕男子撞死，請問具體我們加強的作為為何呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：類似這樣的案件不只這一件，最近也有另外一件在土城。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，對。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們覺得員警在執行任務的時候非常危險，自身安全從警政署以下要好好地再做一個教育，安全要放在最優先的地位來做思考，所以我想內政部跟警政署都會以這樣的案例一再發生，深深地引以為戒，希望真的能夠進一步去照顧到安全。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們看到，剛剛院長有提到三個月內有兩位員警被同樣的一種毒品叫作Etomidate所致，第二位更是怵目驚心，因為全國國人有看到他被拖行了數百公尺這樣子的畫面。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：三重的這位員警，他有一位小孩只有四歲；清水派出所的所長非常優秀，他本來是老師，但追隨家庭，所以從事警察工作，他的小孩是四歲跟一歲；像這樣子的毒蟲是把我們整個國家的司法體系、警察體系一路拖行，還有他們一整家人白髮人送黑髮人，甚至小孩一歲、四歲晚上是看不到爸爸，全部被拖行在地上輾壓，院長，在這邊真的很希望您可以強硬起來，還有跟部長也一樣強硬起來，我們對於這樣子的毒駕、毒品罪犯不能肆無忌憚，讓全民更不信任司法。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，肇事的兇手都已經法辦，我們希望能夠速審速辦。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為很傷心的是，他許許多多的親友到靈堂是告訴他說，希望你來生不要再當警察。身為我們公務人員的大家長，在這邊本席也要請您關注另外一個議題，院長，您知道今年還沒過完，我們統計有多少的員警自殺離開人世嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以再把這個數字跟委員報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟各位報告今年的數據，這也是今天早上我最新詢問相關單位，今年到現在還沒有過完，已經有9位員警自殺離世，我們統計112年以前，過去10年加起來是52位，所以今年到達9位，監察院已經來函要求必須要改善了，所以大家看到毒駕把他們拖行的新聞，明明出去合法地執法，還有像這樣子每個月幾乎都有警察自戕又冒上媒體，怎麼還會有人願意讓自己的小孩或是家人深陷這樣子的險境？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想有幾點，第一個、我們一定要深思檢討，您剛剛所提到說因公殉職的2位員警，我們在前一陣子的預告之後，把因公殉職的條件已經提高了。再來就是我也到靈堂去跟他們的父母還有家人致意。再來就是說他的遺孀，未來如果有家庭工作需要支持的話，我們一定全力來支助。再來大概員警都有特別提到，除了現行犯抓到之後，我們認為這個毒蟲他們所吸用的依托咪酯的部分，目前為止，法務部當然把它列為是三級的毒品，可是我們很多警務同仁會認為說，是不是可以把它升級成二級的毒品，這樣子未來在司法體系上面，比較容易可以針對毒駕或者是毒癮的部分做比較完善的一個措施。那您剛剛所提到了所謂的警察在過去一段時間裡面……"],["陳委員菁徽：心理壓力非常大。"],["劉部長世芳：可能有自戕的傾向，第一個，有的是創傷症候群，那另外一個就是說我們在處理的時候，我們現在已經請專家跟學者來幫忙，不管是團體性的諮商或者是個別的諮商，他們所需要的經費全部由警政署來全力負擔。"],["陳委員菁徽：我也希望您可以提早預防，比如說跟衛福部專業的人士結合……"],["劉部長世芳：有。"],["陳委員菁徽：然後我們可以提早偵察出可能有這樣子傾向、有憂鬱傾向的員警，事先來做預防好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有，我們現在的次數跟去年比起來已經增加到一倍半以上了。"],["陳委員菁徽：講到剛剛的毒品防制，本席在這邊提醒，因為醫療專業，所以有詢問非常多的毒癮專家，其實臺灣對於吸毒的比例並沒有特別在近幾年急速地升高，但是我們有一個特點，也就是說新興毒品是推陳出新，因此，各位執法人員、各位主管機關，你們去抓的速度遠遠趕不上他們更新的速度，所以您剛剛提到Etomidate這個毒品，其實在醫學上是我們插管的時候用的，短暫讓病人感到茫茫的、「馬西馬西」，然後把插管放進去，他不會反抗或者是疼痛，但是這個增長的速度有多快？去年新北市只有查驗到13件，但是今年到6月就暴增到49件，而且發現有2成是未成年，所以這種喪屍的毒品在青少年族群中傳播，如何杜絕毒品入校是重中之重。我也很希望部長，還有教育部部長以及內政部部長、院長，你們有時間可以走走到我們鬧區或是到我們各級學校放學的時間，你會發現現在的年輕人可能人手一支電子煙，雖然電子煙還是違法的，拿在手上、掛在脖子上，蔚為一種風潮。這些第一線的員警也有講到說這件事是怎麼形成的，他們取得這樣子非法的藥品或是毒品，他一點點加進他的電子煙，他會馬上有飄飄然的這種現象，所以對他們來說是一個很便宜的毒品的改造嘛！所以他們聚集起來吸毒，吸完以後騎機車，難免就會發生貽害到我們行人安全的現象，那我想問說，為什麼在臺灣是一個管制的藥，甚至你們已經列管成毒品，還有這麼多人可以輕易地持有呢？我們有什麼具體的作為可以做呢？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想是這樣，我剛剛有特別提到，依托咪酯有時候在市面上可能叫做喪屍煙彈的部分，我們希望可以杜絕，現在在上一次兩位員警殉職後，我也非常謝謝新北市警察局，他們在短暫時間內已經先找到這個毒蟲，那這個毒蟲已經要循上溯源，我們也不排除在銷售這種毒品的部分是否有幫派介入校園裡面，但是這個都需要有長時間來佈線。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以希望你們第一，本席希望可以儘快從源頭去清查……"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["陳委員菁徽：並且禁止再從國外走私入境。再來，也希望院長可以幫忙，我們是不是可以提供第一線警察最必要的資源？這個資源比如說，他現在的工作項目越來越多了，他又要抓酒駕，又要抓藥駕，現在藥檢試劑有辦法驗出所有的新興毒品嗎？當他去盤查的時候有辦法嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有那麼快。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，沒有辦法，所以我希望院長可以協助，第一，我們要給他武器，我們要給他必要的資源，還有給他額外的津貼，對嗎？因為他的工作項目越來越繁雜，他是不是應該要有必要的津貼？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們應該從生活跟勤務各方面來檢討員警現在工作上遇到的一些工作瓶頸。"],["陳委員菁徽：那是不是也可以請院長全權來督導、盤點、更新他們的緝毒設備，並且食藥署也應該要加入，對於新興毒品，各個單位、教育部加強查緝防制，可不可以做到呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們在歷次的治安會報跟相關會議當中，都對新興毒品的加速審定能夠進一步加速在做……"],["陳委員菁徽：是，但你要給他武器。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，審定之後，我們就必須讓員警在執行過程中如何發現這個現在是違禁物品，所以這個過程當中，一定要配合得上來。"],["陳委員菁徽：以及校園。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後，我也想提醒院長，不只是毒駕、酒駕，還有藥駕其實越來越嚴重，我看到審計部的報告有納入藥駕的防制檢討，根據推估每年因藥駕造成交通事故死亡人數高達三百多人，高過酒駕致死人數，所以這邊也請院長檢討現行的道安規則，還有處罰條例相關規定，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["陳委員菁徽：否則第一線員警的安全真的很堪慮，他們面對的是不同的危險，並且他們執法工具沒有配備任何檢驗工具，讓他們去發現這個人到底是藥駕或者是毒駕。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，如果執法的強度或是刑責強度的提高，有效地來減少這樣的案件的話，我想各方的意見，我們都會慎重考量。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們真的很不希望再看到這樣子的憾事，所以我也會針對剛才我提出的五點，再請各位於一個月內提出報告，謝謝兩位部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：接下來我們要請衛福部邱部長，謝謝。衛福部今年5月14號人工生殖法預告日期已經結束了，所以我相信其實在這邊已經有很多委員問過了，很多大家引頸期盼，包括人工生殖，包括其他的，為什麼行政院遲遲都還沒有把最新版本送進立法院呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：預告期間已經滿了，但是現在各方的意見還相當多元，對於人工生殖，還在繼續溝通當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：我相信立法院其實就代表民意嘛！因為大家從各行各業、各個選區過來，所以如果可以到立法院來做出最適合全國人民的人工生殖法修法，其實也更好。因為已經討論二、三十年了，從賴總統之前當賴委員的時候就已經提過，尤其在醫學如此進步的今天，我們應該用更積極的態度，還有更寬廣的心胸面對，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對的，委員，部長答復之前，跟委員報告，我們也認為在目前這個時代，整個社會的需求，人工生殖法我們應該用非常正面積極看待，所以我們願意跟各界做更好的溝通，溝通的細節，部長比較清楚。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們7月31號完成預告以後，因為意見很多，所以我們蒐集各個意見，也邀請了醫學、婦權、兒權、倫理及法律專家，以及相關社福部會，召開了5次以上的會議來討論，將儘速依法制程序，現在在衛福部法規會，應該在10月底可以報到行政院。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。我們真的很期待新的版本可以送到立法院來，讓我們對未來更多元共榮的臺灣社會有好的幫助、正向的幫助，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我會請衛福部依照剛剛這個時程一定要完成送來。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，感謝。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來，這也是這個禮拜以來許許多多醫療院所很擔心的，早上我有提到誰在颱風天出勤，醫師、醫護人員、醫事人員就是其中之一，他們不畏風雨，醫院所有維生系統很多是24小時要開著的，它沒有辦法節能省電，它就是要開著；另外，手術室要維持低溫才能降低感染率，所以它的空調也必須要運營。我知道部長其實很好啦，部長之前有為了我們的碳盤查發聲，你知道我們的人力也不足以再應付碳盤查、碳費等等，所以有稍微為我們發聲，這個本席也非常地感動。但是這個禮拜電價審議會的新聞是反反覆覆，一下說10月16號以後醫療院所就要漲14%，一下又說現在可能擬凍漲，以前還有電費的補貼或是凍漲，請問各位對於醫療院所的部分10月16號之後的態度是如何呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：請郭部長說明之前，跟委員報告，基本的態度是醫療院所的部分，不會增加它的負擔，至於它的電費，以前是由台電來吸收，未來我們要想想用什麼方式來做處理，但是原則就是不會增加醫療院所的負擔。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是說這14%，院長會幫我們想辦法？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長來答復。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們這一次基本上醫療院所就是不漲。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝，謝謝各位今天給我們一個很明確的答案，否則全國關心這件事的人要提心吊膽，一直要等到10月16號才會有消息。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，這個……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦，我們有公告。"],["卓院長榮泰：昨天大家都在風災當中去……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有，剛剛有說要等到10月16號的開會……"],["卓院長榮泰：昨天部長就已經公布了。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝郭部長。","邱部長，這個我覺得已經太多委員問過了，所以我也不再多說太多，但是上個禮拜因為很多委員真的很擔心，您的意志很堅強，說一定可以在明年6月前達到0.95，但是院長有時候對外受訪又說財政上真的有點困難。當然最近都有看到新聞說上次討論是要700億才能達成嘛，但是編列的預算顯然就沒有到，所以今天本席也想要一起幫大家來思考我們有什麼開源節流的方法可以協助部長，因為部長上禮拜回答陳玉珍委員，你說到分級醫療、開源節流、改善就醫習慣，都是您的方針，是嗎？要多管齊下。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們真的非常感謝行政院，尤其院長、副院長對於我們健康的投資，特別在健保這部分的協助方案是有史以來最高的，我必須要先講清楚。但是要達到0.95，當然還要更多的努力，我不是說一定能夠達到，我是說我們會儘量努力，而且醫療體系真的跟我講他們也很感動行政院這麼地幫忙，所以他們也要自己管理自己。譬如說我們做有效的管理，當然有效管理不是隨便核刪，還有整個醫療制度的改變、分級醫療的確實。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，我們等一下也一起來回顧一下。您之前擔任委員，我知道您對於浮動點值、平均點值、攤扣、斷頭，其實你都有很多的想法，也質詢過薛瑞元部長，我們也稍微看一下。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：對，部長，您講得很清楚，我們現在面對的問題就是為了達到目標點值0.92、0.93，又開始了您以前講到的斷頭、攤扣這樣的行為。距離您之前當委員的時候，知道現在的醫療院所又多了哪些？多了通膨、多了電價的調漲，雖然剛剛說可能一度不用，多了碳盤查、多了基本工資的調漲、多了護理人員的出走。所以我們來看，這是今年第二季、第三季，北區只有0.85，但是為了達到0.92、0.93等等目標值，北區一年要攤扣將近七、八十億啊！聽說這是立法院的主決議，所以衛福部直接要求要攤扣更多，可以達到0.95，這些都有記錄在健保會議的紀錄當中，您知道這件事嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，攤扣或者斷頭都是各區他們自己自主性的一個……其實等於是健保署跟醫界這邊的簽約，有的是自主管理嘛，所以他有不同的方式。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，但套一句您剛剛講的：要人家怎麼運營？說實在的，一群醫護人員今年開始他的業務，他可能沒有辦法預期醫療利用率、老齡化的現象或是新興傳染病，所以他到今年的業務結束以後，第一，他要先看你的浮動點值是多少；第二，他有可能要被攤扣；第三，他有可能被嚴審；第四，他有可能還要負擔其他現在多出來、以前沒有的成本。所以對他來說，他真的沒有辦法運營下去，您之前講得很有道理，在斷頭前浮動點值要達到0.9，您覺得是很必要的呀！"],["邱部長泰源：當然我在當立法委員的時候，一定是聽醫事團體的心聲，如果我覺得有道理要來爭取，當然就是把他們的意見講出來，然後儘量爭取。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們也……"],["邱部長泰源：這段期間其實我們也可以看到行政院還有相關的長官們真的非常努力，希望我們不但要創造點值、更要創造健保的價值，所以也用「健康台灣」讓我們很尊嚴地去從事很多很多我們要做的工作，而在這當中，無形中就能夠提升一定的點值。"],["陳委員菁徽：關於攤扣、嚴審兩個比起來，我也想知道法務部部長的意見，不管是健保法或者是「全民健康保險醫療費用申報與核付及醫療服務審查辦法」第二十二條，裡面都沒有講到「攤扣」這個名詞，大概就針對樣品審查、案件分析、點數核減等等，而且有法源依據的就是專業核刪，專業核刪還有救濟，還可以申訴喔，我還可以申訴說為什麼我要這樣子做……"],["主席：陳委員，我打岔一下，要不要法務部長備詢？"],["陳委員菁徽：對。"],["主席：你點到法務部長。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，謝謝。"],["主席：請法務部長備詢。對不起呀！"],["陳委員菁徽：所以攤扣既然沒有法源的依據，也沒有詳列在所有的健保法相關法規裡面，我也想請教法務部部長的意見，根據釋字第443號解釋，它是不是有剝奪生命、限制人民身體自由或者有其他自由權利限制者，而應該由法律來加以規範？因為它等於是變相把一個應得的酬勞再交出來還給政府，這很明顯就是侵害到人民的財產權！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，限制人民的自由權利必須要法律的位階來限制。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，這邊還有講到侵害人民的財產權。"],["鄭部長銘謙：自由權利這個就是財產權。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。院長，我也很希望您回去可以花點時間研究一下，當你想要把帳面上做得很漂亮，但是你在私底下用了很多的手段讓它的帳面好看，其實你沒有辦法達成你的「健康台灣」、也沒有辦法達成社會防衛韌性委員會，因為這其中很大的一塊都是醫護人員在默默的奉獻，也太多委員講過了，跟OECD國家比起來，我們的健康投資就是很少的啦！所以未來跟你對國家的願景真的是息息相關，希望你可以特別重視這樣子的問題，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員提醒，我絕對不願意只做一個帳面上漂亮的數字，今年我們在總額預算當中，如果用最高來算已經達到九千多億，比起過去我們增加了712億，增加的這個錢會做有效的運用，如果能夠有效運用的話，我相信有助於點值。"],["陳委員菁徽：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：當中光是「健康台灣」，在這裡面就有607億的錢。"],["陳委員菁徽：有兩點我也想要點出來，第一個我快速地講到，上禮拜您回應陳玉珍委員說，分級醫療就是一個很好的方法，我盤點了過去106到113年，我們總共編列了530億花在分級醫療，結果呢？我們下轉的案件是負成長；再來從基層醫療到區域醫院、到醫學中心就醫的比例是一動也不動！那你們今年還要再編列預算的話，如果是用一樣的老方法，覺得有效嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我一直認為國人受健保的制度保障了30年，現在我們回頭如何來保障健保這個制度的時代來了，30年累積下來，國人在醫療的習慣上面，推行分級醫療、轉診制度都推行的非常有限，未來我希望真的能夠……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，今年又編列了推行分級醫療的預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：要用新的方式來推！"],["陳委員菁徽：拜託！可以真的看到一點點成效，好嗎？因為過去八年是不動如山啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我想不只是分級門診可以減少多少錢，不只是這樣子而已，應該用更好的一個方式來推。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個也是我們希望可以幫邱委員、現在邱部長落實的，其實最近在開很多公聽會，我們會發現癌症新藥基金審查，裡面有一大部分是拿來做篩檢，你就會發現，如果篩檢一半肺癌、大腸癌在前期，跟篩檢一半是在晚期，後面的醫療支出是天差地遠，所以之前邱委員就提出自費的健康檢查特別扣除額，本席也覺得其實可以，因為如果你沒有鼓勵大家可以在初期的時候就篩檢出來，背後的費用是更為龐大。所以院長，可以在這邊拜託您，回去跟財政部部長一個月內進行可行性的研擬嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個非常值得去研議的觀點，如果能夠提前篩檢出來，比方我們最近做的一些很多項癌症的篩檢，乳癌可以提前篩檢出來，但治療的成效卻不是像我們想像的那麼好，這可能在治療的過程當中要用新的方式，但是總是鼓勵大家能夠……"],["陳委員菁徽：現在最多的肺癌、大腸癌，這兩項在前期只要開刀治療的成效是非常好，所以它可以大幅下降後面的財政支出，你也不需要花那麼多錢在癌症新藥等等的。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以明年的預算我們也編了相當多在癌篩、提前篩檢的部分。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。不好意思，我想最後花5分鐘關心一下高雄關於觀光、教育及行人安全的議題，請兩位部長休息。","接下來我們希望請教育部鄭部長、工程會陳主委、劉世芳部長及交通部陳部長上臺備詢，謝謝。"],["主席：請相關部會首長備詢。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個我也有當面跟教育部部長反映，很多委員都有問到，對於老舊校舍的修繕其實錢就真的不夠，必須每年都要靠行政院的專款來支付。很明顯的，這個是我上個會期到許許多多的小學，他們二、三十年的廁所完全沒有修繕，然後錢現在也不夠了，6個小便斗，有5個是不能用的，從下課排隊上廁所，排到上課都還排不到；這一間廁所在沖馬桶，另外一間的水會沖到你的屁股；還有滴水的狀況，上面、下面已經連成一個鐘乳石的奇景了，我真的很希望各位可以花點時間去看看，這是我會勘親眼所及。我聽說教育部在7月的時候又提報了一筆80億的廁所預算，聽說行政院9月26日有拿到審核的結果，是不是？想知道80億什麼時候可以讓教育部拿到位？因為高雄市政府都已經撥好地方必須要付的福山國小、明德國小、新甲國小等等的案例，都準備好配合的錢，只需要教育部、行政院一個點頭，學校就可以馬上施工，而不是讓這些小朋友從念小學一直等到畢業，廁所都還沒好。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，過去八年我們投入了83.5億，114、115、116，3年我們編列了80億，希望能夠整建2,670棟的老舊廁所，能夠注意到公共設施或是學校廁所的問題，都跟我一樣，我們都有潔癖之類的。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以這80億什麼時候教育部可以拿到？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經編列了，明年預算一通過，就馬上可以……請教育部長來說明。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，謝謝委員的關心，確實上一次委員所關心的學校，我們也循程序爭取跟行政院院長報告，院長也覺得這是一個非常重要的，影響到學生的學習品質，所以院長在上個禮拜已經批准了兩年有80億的老舊……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝，我也會儘量為這幾所學校爭取，把他們現在的慘況可以從報告中呈現出來，謝謝部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我更希望它優先用到真正快速趕快需要改善的地方，請委員能夠提供。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。","我們接下來請陳部長及陳主委，蓮池潭是高雄很重要的觀光景點，也是這個禮拜風災重創的，但是據我所知，有一筆補助2,268萬元的風景區營造工程，觀光署對於高雄市提報的預算書圖有意見，所以在這邊可不可以特別跟陳部長拜託一下，在地方政府修正其書圖的同時，可不可以允許他們同時工程招標呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，他們預計在10月9號，也就是下個禮拜會辦理工程上網招標的公告。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：10月9號就會進行。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝部長，我也請陳主委發揮您的專業，在他們整個標案設計、發包、工程建案等等的順暢度，可以協助他們好嗎？謝謝主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。","接下來是跟劉部長比較相關，而且是劉部長非常熟悉的區域，4年400億行人安全計畫有很多都是在學校周邊，都是劉部長非常熟悉的，我知道第二、第三已經獲得公路局通過，但是第一個因為跟中央道路無關，所以推回給國土署，可不可以請劉部長幫忙國土署，將這個作為審查第一順位呢？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員補充報告一下，我們其實在10月1號已經有通知高雄市政府，目前第5次的提案會在11月8號左右全部來一起統籌辦理。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：11月8號。"],["陳委員菁徽：11月8號？"],["劉部長世芳：對，全部的部分，不是只有針對……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，非常感謝，也在這邊謝謝交通部陳部長。","最後一個也是劉部長很熟悉的，在新莊一路那邊有4所學校，從小學到最高等教育，即將要蓋的清大、交大都有，但是連年的交通事故非常的高，所以國土署代表上禮拜有來，是不是把它列為10月1號審查第一順位？有沒有什麼好消息可以提供給我們？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我想委員跟很多民意代表都有到現場去會勘過，現在的進度就是我們會納到永續提升人行安全計畫，在10月15號審議。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那我們就期待10月15號有好消息，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第50號林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐富癸","陳菁徽","林宜瑾","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳永康","李昆澤","涂權吉","張智倫"],"page_start":33,"meetingDate":["2024-10-04"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00002","1137701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137701_00006"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}