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意的總統那現在60%的在野黨現在人民希望的是在野黨要施行的就是強力的監督所以無論是這個時程大家排好了以後相信國民黨會展現出最嚴格的審查讓人民來信任這個現在總統提名所提名的人事案是大家全民可以信賴的以上謝謝"},{"start":2270.399,"end":2276.434,"text":"非常感謝志倫、非常感謝張志倫委員那我們接下來是不是請民主進步黨的黨團代表"},{"start":2279.289,"end":2287.795,"text":"謝謝主席那也感謝民眾黨提案那我想針對考試院人事的同意權那民進黨也是也是感謝民眾黨的這樣的提案但是我們針對現在要處理的人事權除了考試院之外也還有司法院那也還有NCC的人事同意權所以基本上整個時間點在這個會期是壓迫的因為我們知道我們這會期所面對的"},{"start":2308.337,"end":2313.261,"text":"總質詢之後：我們還有包括總預算有沒有機會復違來討論那也有包括一些法案那這個人事權也都全部都會壓迫在這個會期我們有時間的壓力要來處理所以我們還是希望主席可以考慮我們在"},{"start":2326.372,"end":2336.561,"text":"思考這個同意權的時候能不能就考試院以及司法院大法官還有NCC我們可以統一建立一套處理的實效的一個時程因為我們現在如果把這三個人事同意權把它切割來處理的話那那個時間會相當的久"},{"start":2349.571,"end":2377.331,"text":"如果我們在現在就可以直接討論出我們接下來時間的規劃這個會期時間的規劃有考試院那有司法院跟NCC這樣的話也許在這個會期我們可以更有效率的來處理接下來人事同意權的進展所以我們民進黨還是希望主席先去思考這件事情那有沒有可能在這裡我們就大家可以來把未來我們希望怎樣的時間都把它切出來好 謝謝"},{"start":2379.232,"end":2401.269,"text":"好,非常感謝那個蔡宇宇委員我先跟蔡宇宇委員說明一下因為今天台灣民眾黨黨團召集協商我們的主要是因為院會做了一個決定那個決定就是由我們來召集協商那由我們召集協商那個院會交付的課題範圍只限於考試委員的部分所以"},{"start":2402.209,"end":2428.619,"text":"就是我完全聽得懂我也可以理解蔡委員你想要表達的意思那只不過說在整個議事的進行程序上面我們負責召集的學生只限於院會所交付的事項並沒有包括到司法院政府院長、大法官那以及NCC委員事實上NCC委員的部分也不需要由院會來交付啦因為NCC事實上就交通委員會的召委"},{"start":2429.219,"end":2444.63,"text":"他只要排了就可以去進行處理的所以需要到院會的層級來去進行協商的那應該是只有司法院的正副院長、大法官以及考試院的正副院長、考試委員那只不過說受限於院會"},{"start":2445.41,"end":2468.565,"text":"交付今天黨團協商、協商主題的事項我恐怕雖然今天田維主席也沒有那麼大的權限可以做這一件事情那我是覺得啦我個人覺得不管今天以前各個黨團針對不同的政策、法案、人事大家有不同的政治立場我覺得在台灣一個民主國家就是常態"},{"start":2469.486,"end":2495.804,"text":"那我是希望說今天就最沒有爭議的部分就考試委員的部分如果可以的話大家是不是能夠有一個初步的共識要不然我覺得如果把焦點就是在擴大到今天要寫上主題的範圍事項之外我是希望今天你不要忘記啦就是大家和和氣氣的有一個共識那我們達成一個初步的共識我趕快"},{"start":2496.884,"end":2525.266,"text":"我趕快把這個事情交給我們真正的大家長韓國瑜韓院長那等到韓院長召集協商的時候民進黨的朋友希望一併就有關於司法院的正副院長、大法官也能夠排入時程我覺得到請韓院長召集協商的時候也可以表達這樣子的意見不曉得我這樣子的一個初步的建議那今天與會的各個黨團的代表是不是能夠同意"},{"start":2530.806,"end":2555.932,"text":"來 請黃珊珊委員對 我想剛剛主席講的已經很清楚了因為我們今天我們前面也是來協商考試院所以我覺得今天就把考試院把它定下來那定下來之後另外兩個那是不是請民進黨也可以提案我覺得一樣可以進行相關的程序而且如果可以的話大家協商時間都可以但是就是考試院的部分我們可能今天就把它定下來好 謝謝黃珊珊委員來 我們請吳思耀委員"},{"start":2559.344,"end":2570.456,"text":"謝謝主席今天的協商的召集是週五院會的提案然後因為是民眾黨提案所以由民眾黨今天來召集這場協商那我想正在民進黨的這個立場其實我們早在8月2號的時候我們也正式的行文給韓院長"},{"start":2579.727,"end":2592.493,"text":"針對考試院人事同意權．還有NCC的人事同意權．應當由院長來召集協商．一併的把整個．兩個同意權要行使的期程．要把它排定．"},{"start":2593.814,"end":2594.455,"text":"由各黨團推．由各黨團推．由各黨團推"},{"start":2610.49,"end":2610.77,"text":"由國民黨黨團推 由國民黨黨團推"},{"start":2636.307,"end":2658.773,"text":"要行使我們的審查：雖然現在還沒有辦法復違：但是騎乘上有4個預算案要審查：它的規模非常大：要耗去的討論的時間也相對比較多：因為我們都認同要嚴格監督預算的執行：那另外我們還有4個人事同意權：除了NCC考試院還有大法官：也還有公評會：所以這個會期的時間上的排定其實每一個"},{"start":2663.922,"end":2673.365,"text":"就是因為院會就這麼多週然後要在法定期程內完成所以在這個有限的時間上為什麼我們認為應當是韓院長針對全部的一致性來衡量跟思考幾個人事同意權行使的時程"},{"start":2681.708,"end":2700.674,"text":"這樣可以在我們後續的安排上更有效率然後也能夠更精準的方便幾個兩個憲政機關然後兩個獨立機關的所有的審查的程序的準備所以今天我們基本上也是非常尊重因為民眾黨在院會提案然後依程序民眾黨今天黃國昌總召召集這個協商但是在這個協商的會場上我們還是要表達我們的立場認為三個同意權目前送進來的應當是一致性的來討論"},{"start":2710.737,"end":2739.639,"text":"他的行使包括適用的立法院職權行使法、新法、舊法然後包括後續的時程的這些規範都應當是一個一致性的考量所以我們8月2號已經是希望由韓院長來一個召集這樣院級的協商可能大家就不會掛一漏萬所以這個部分也是我們今天我們來出席也代表我們都願意一起來推進相關立法院依職權該行使的人事同意權"},{"start":2740.419,"end":2761.855,"text":"但是在安排的時程上．恐怕是要由韓院長來召集．韓院長層級的協商．能夠把所有的人事同意權的時程．一次來排定．一次來商議．包括適用的法律．然後這個是比較嚴謹跟全面的．所以今天來做這樣一件的表達．謝謝主席"},{"start":2763.135,"end":2783.744,"text":"非常感謝吳思堯吳委員我想吳委員大概有把民進黨黨團的立場說明只不過我可能要再次的跟我們民進黨的朋友說聲抱歉因為院會交付我們黨團負責召集協商直線與考試委員其他的事情因為我也不是立法院院長我是心有餘而力不足"},{"start":2785.185,"end":2804.464,"text":"相信剛剛民進黨黨團所表示的看法我們今天議事處的處長也在這邊我也就反請我們議事處的處長就回去跟秘書長還有跟院長稍微說明一下我們今天民進黨黨團的朋友他們所表達出來的一個看法"},{"start":2804.804,"end":2818.377,"text":"但我是不是可以冒昧的請教一下所以針對我們台灣民眾黨黨團今天所提出來的時程民主進步黨是認為你們沒有辦法同意希望韓院長來召集協商是嗎"},{"start":2819.059,"end":2846.645,"text":"我想今天沒有進入單一個人事同意權的期程我們希望是三個人事同意權然後在院長的層級我們把這一個會期的所有的院會的時間然後能夠審查的時程是是是,這個剛剛您都說明過了但是我們最後協商成立不成立要有個企業論嘛所以我剛才會比較禮貌性的請教民主進步黨黨團是不是不同意"},{"start":2848.036,"end":2872.827,"text":"我們希望是韓院長的協商一起來三一次性的三個人事同意權一併來考量可以增加彼此在討論間的期程上的效率對 那所以針對我們提出來的期程民主經濟黨黨團是不是沒有辦法同意因為我要做協商結論來 請 請洪委員其實並不 我覺得並不是就目前上面的資訊同不同意的問題"},{"start":2875.177,"end":2902.575,"text":"開了開了開了我的意思是說現在並不是針對目前這個提案裡面上面的內容同不同意的問題是我們會覺得需要參考其他人士同意權一併來思考才能夠比較去核對這裡面每一個時間點上面的合理性跟順暢度的問題所以其實也完全我也完全理解剛剛主席講到說因為今天院會交付你今天討論的事情"},{"start":2905.357,"end":2907.298,"text":"考試院第十四屆院長、副院長及考試委員被提名人同意權案公聽會．由各黨團推"},{"start":2920.176,"end":2944.27,"text":"因為今天各個黨團的代表就剩下沛翔兄還沒講話是不是我先因為基於對沛翔的尊重你花時間坐在這邊請林委員謝謝主席我個人認為是說我們務實一點先把考試院的時程先排下來比較重要一步一步來飯要一口一口吃水要一口一口喝不過針對國會審查我有一點要講說其實國會審查分為兩部分"},{"start":2949.173,"end":2973.791,"text":"一個當然是針對人選的審查你這個人選的學歷、經歷、專業能力甚至操守各方面這是很重要的一環另外一方面是取決於價值今天我們看到就是在憲政體下那如果行政機關跟國會都是多數民意所代表的政黨而去所掌權的那自然總統的提名名單是代表全體社會多數的民意"},{"start":2974.751,"end":2989.089,"text":"但若國會多數是在野而總統代表是相對少數的民意那麼提名的名單就需要經過協調、討論跟折衝這樣才能提出一個所謂符合大多數民意所認可的名單"},{"start":2989.99,"end":3016.473,"text":"如果總統府沒有跟立法院經過一定程度的協調跟討論跟折衝那就直接送進名單進去國會不管是哪一個名單那不只是對於全國國民跟國會議員的不尊重也是藐視了我們目前中華民國憲法憲政民主法制的精神所以我覺得還是回到今天我們開會的重點先把考試院的人事的時間把它定下來以後的再議我會認為這樣以上"},{"start":3018.781,"end":3036.855,"text":"我先跟各位黨團成員報告就是說因為今天協商啦我們目標是有共識最好那沒有共識各自的立場說完就好了因為我真的不太希望朝野協商變成一個大家在玩家的地方不好啦大家要玩家各自回去開記者會就好了"},{"start":3037.615,"end":3064.28,"text":"所以為了要節省大家寶貴的時間各位黨團的代表是不是容許我宣告我們今天的協商不成立我會請我們黨團的同仁等一下回去立刻今天馬上發文給韓國瑜院長請我們的院長以院長的高度來召集協商可以處理的事情的範圍比我們今天被院會授權的範圍比較大我做這樣的結論不曉得各黨團的代表是不是可以同意請"},{"start":3066.502,"end":3087.209,"text":"那也希望就是我們如同我們8月2號已經發文謝謝主席的一些處理的建議方向我們也希望NCC其實期程上是比考試院更早送它的法定達到的時間也更早所以NCC、考試院跟大法官我們希望立法院大家都應當是一致性的來行使我們的國會審查權"},{"start":3089.069,"end":3095.632,"text":"二、有必要再說明一下憲政機關的分際非常清楚我們今天坐在這裡討論人事同意權立法院是行使審查權跟同意權在提名權的部分當然就依憲法的授權這個是總統的權限這個一定要非常清楚的來做說明"},{"start":3110.319,"end":3131.576,"text":"所以不可能也不應當存在剛剛沛翔委員所說的在名單的提出提名的同時就應當是協調經過立法院同意協調出名單再送進來我想這跟憲政的規範是非常大的一個不同也不會如此也不應如此我們在這裡我想我們還是在我們的權限"},{"start":3132.276,"end":3137.999,"text":"以我們的職長來說憲法賦予我們的權限所以總統在憲政機關的提名部分考位是由總統提名權那立法院就是行使審查以及同意權也可以透過審查來決定同意或不同意我想這是一個基本的程序那我們民進黨團我們也是一開始我們就在8月就希望是韓院長來召集"},{"start":3155.706,"end":3182.615,"text":"人事同意權的協商那再次謝謝黃國昌總召今天召集協商辛苦了也謝謝出席的各黨代表謝謝好 那個非常感謝吳世耀委員的說明那我可能再次的說明一下就各個委員有各個委員的高見每位委員發言都很有憲政的高度作為主席我們百分之百都尊重那第二個部分NCC的同意權審查是在交通委員會的層次我們也希望"},{"start":3183.555,"end":3207.464,"text":"看兩位召委看誰什麼時候要排嘛這個我沒什麼意見那第三個那我們今天非常感謝各位黨團有派代表來出席那今天協商沒有辦法或是結論那就請台灣民眾黨黨團我們趕快發文給韓院長請韓院長召集協商那這樣子是不是我們今天的協商就到此為止可以齁好謝謝大家謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2024100478","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T16:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院台灣民眾黨黨團，針對總統咨請本院行使考試院第十四屆院長、副院長及考試委員被提名人同意權案提出審查時程如下：一、定於10月14日（星期一）舉行考試院第十四屆院長、副院長及考試委員被提名人同意權案公聽會，由各黨團推薦學者專家代表7人參加，依政黨比例由國民黨黨團推薦3人、民進黨黨團推薦3人、台灣民眾黨黨團推薦1人；各黨團審查小組委員亦依上述比例推派委員組成。學者專家及審查小組委員名單，請於10月8日（星期二）中午12時前送交議事處彙整，逾期視同放棄。二、10月16日（星期三）、17日（星期四）、21日（星期一）召開全院委員會，並合併為一次會。10月16日（星期三）上午審查院長被提名人周弘憲同意權案、10月16日（星期三）下午審查副院長被提名人許舒翔同意權案；10月17日（星期四）審查考試委員被提名人邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧同意權案；10月21日（星期一）審查考試委員被提名人柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威IwanNawi同意權案。三、10月16日（星期三）上、下午各由5位委員進行詢答，依政黨比例由國民黨黨團推派2人、民進黨黨團推派2人、台灣民眾黨黨團推派1人代表進行，各黨團推派名單，請於10月14日（星期一）中午12時前送交議事處彙整，逾時視同放棄。詢答採即問即答方式進行，每位委員詢答時間為30分鐘，並得採聯合詢問，但其人數不得超過2人；詢答順序依例授權議事處辦理。四、10月17日（星期四）及10月21日（星期一）每位被提名人各由3位委員進行詢答，依政黨比例由國民黨黨團推派1人、民進黨黨團推派1人、台灣民眾黨黨團推派1人代表進行，各黨團推派名單，請於10月16日（星期三）中午12時前送交議事處彙整，逾時視同放棄。詢答採即問即答方式進行，每位委員詢答時間為20分鐘；詢答順序依例授權議事處辦理。五、審查完畢後，提報11月1日（星期五）院會行使同意權案投票表決（相關審查時程及事務如附件）。是否有當？請公決案。）","委員發言時間":"15:30:13 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9.021,"text":"本次議程邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部及相關單位列席就憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令的檢討與修正．進行專題報告．並備質詢。現在開始進行報告發言時間5分鐘我們先請黃代理秘書長報告"},{"start":2277.864,"end":2295.738,"text":"主席、各位委員本院奉邀致貴院司法法制委員會就《憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示所衍生相關法令的檢討與修正》進行專案報告在這邊表示感謝之意本這一次的"},{"start":2297.339,"end":2306.436,"text":"憲法法庭的憲判字就國人非常關切的這個死刑是不是合憲的這個議題那麼設定了說如果說這個個案的"},{"start":2307.861,"end":2320.292,"text":"犯罪情節確實是最嚴重的而且他的刑事程序也符合憲法最嚴密的正當法律程序的這個要求那麼這次釋憲標的的四個條文包含刑法271條第一項、226條之一、332條第一項、348條第一項這四個條都涉及到故意殺人的這個部分那在這個設定的前提之下那並沒有違憲所以說"},{"start":2336.115,"end":2363.291,"text":"所以基本上在這一次憲判之下那在這個設定的前提之下那這個四個條文是合憲的那當然憲判制針對設定的前提有對這個包含訴訟程序以及實體的規定做相關的這個要求那以下簡單的跟各位報告那首先是關於本院執掌所關的包含刑事訴訟法跟法案組織法的部分那麼有關的部分是"},{"start":2364.191,"end":2374.928,"text":"憲判字主文第3項這第3項是要求在刑事偵查包含檢察官偵查以及司法警察在調查這個過程中如果說"},{"start":2376.451,"end":2402.589,"text":"涉及到這幾個法定行有死刑的案件那麼應該要現行以書面告知人民他所涉的這個罪名並且告知他得選任辯護人那這一些這個相關的這個規定涉及到刑事書法31條偵查中強制辯護的規定以及相關的通知方式那本院會同相關的這個機關來協商做相關條文的修正"},{"start":2406.832,"end":2418.346,"text":"其實是關於憲判字判決主文第4項第5項的部分這部分是涉及到那個第三審的這個強制辯論以及延遲辯論"},{"start":2420.216,"end":2440.728,"text":"因為我們目前刑事訴訟法388條跟389條並對於第三審是排除強制律師代理跟必要延遲辯論的那並沒有就死刑案件設例外那但是憲判制的判決要求說要符合憲法上最嚴密的正當法律程序所以在第三審也有辯護人"},{"start":2443.342,"end":2462.553,"text":"依賴的這個需求也必須進行延遲辯論但是實際上跟各位報告在最高法院從101年開始實際上面就實行了案件都已經進行了延遲辯論那在105年也修正了相關的規定那既然進行延遲辯論依照相關的規定當然就有律師代理"},{"start":2465.034,"end":2492.131,"text":"只是說以往並沒有在刑事訴訟法裡面去做要求所以這一次我們會依照憲法判決去修正刑事訴訟法388條跟389條那其次是關於死刑這一次憲判主文第6項要求死刑一字決這個部分那因為憲判之認為說今天要判人家死刑剝奪剝奪一個生命是不可挽回的那事後也沒有辦法做任何補救所以死刑的判決必須"},{"start":2493.092,"end":2504.177,"text":"不能有任何被懷疑所以今天假設一個判決死刑的何一庭本身意見都不一致是不是能夠讓人家相信說沒有任何的可疑確實是值得檢討的那實際上面以往的這個案例裡面"},{"start":2508.539,"end":2535.754,"text":"會宣判死刑的可能大部分也都是一字決只是說這一次宣判的這個主文裡面要求的合一庭一字決是指最後為實體確定裁判的這個法院而言而不是指說各個審計都必須一字決所以外界有一些的誤會在這邊做澄清今天假設第一院判無期二審改判主文這是可能的那在國民法官的案件也是指國民法官的三個職業法官一字決至於說"},{"start":2538.13,"end":2556.839,"text":"6位國民法官裡面只要有3位是贊成死刑那麼也符合國民法官法底下可以死刑的這個三分之二的這個要求那因為涉及到法案組織法105條跟這個國民法官法我們也會做相關的這些修正另外涉及到本院執掌還包含說憲判字第9"},{"start":2557.819,"end":2585.058,"text":"主文第9項關於執行受刑能力、死刑的受刑能力這部分涉及到說精神障礙跟心智缺陷然後對於死刑的這些理由跟理解有欠缺這些情形這涉及到刑事書法465條的規定那這部分我們也會會同相關機關去做修正當然這一次憲判主文裡面還涉及到說一些跟我們本院執行比較不相關比如說刑法"},{"start":2586.799,"end":2587.579,"text":"接下來我們請政部長報告"},{"start":2623.045,"end":2643.522,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生,大家早安。今天奉邀列席貴委員會就憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討及修正,代表本部列席報告並備質詢。報告如下,請各位委員來指教。那本部就實行制度在113.4.23號憲法法庭的延遲編中,我們就"},{"start":2647.962,"end":2669.969,"text":"鑑定為表達合憲的立場對憲法法庭在憲判字8號判決宣告死刑、限離、屍體、故意、殺人、個案、犯罪情節屬最嚴重程序符合憲法最嚴密正常法律程序之下的合憲判決我們表示尊重本部基於依法行政自應遵守憲法法令大法官所為相關解釋及判決"},{"start":2671.226,"end":2693.761,"text":"那在憲法法庭的一個宣告實行合憲的一個實體程序的限制情形下合憲我們已經依照憲判的意旨我們來完備來法律的一個程序我們積極檢視本部所主管的實體法規如刑法、監獄刑法等並以司法院所主管的程序法規如刑事訴訟法、法院執法等"},{"start":2694.321,"end":2723.035,"text":"我們已經在10月1號召開院部的交流會議就相關的修法事宜進行意見的將來能夠盡是完備相關的法律那我們是會盤點實體法規來強化密度這個就是在掩體刑法修正草案符合憲法判決行為史的精神或心智缺陷者不能判處死刑在就掩體刑法修正草案符合憲"},{"start":2723.855,"end":2740.788,"text":"法判決之審判時精神及心智障礙不得判處死刑的一個意旨那再來就是掩體無期徒刑假釋門檻層級化的一個規範嚴懲重大這個犯罪那第二再來就檢視程序法規來經過嚴密的一個程序"},{"start":2742.789,"end":2757.984,"text":"這個最主要是要修正建立行刑法增訂受刑能力的規範那再來就是與司法院共同研立修正刑事訴訟法相關規定包括刑事訴訟法因新增偵查中強制辯護的規定應修正刑事訴訟法388條第3審強制辯護的規定"},{"start":2762.168,"end":2780.981,"text":"刑事訴訟法第389、第30延遲辯論的規定以及修正第465條停止執行、死刑事由的這些規定那再來就是要嚴懲暴力犯罪、維護社會正義那37件的死刑就案我們會依法妥適的一個"},{"start":2782.211,"end":2796.588,"text":"處置37名人犯在法院撤銷確定判決之前我們是依法來說容那第二就是死刑案件全是我們都已經交給送檢送給最高檢察署來依法嚴謹來審核"},{"start":2798.208,"end":2819.219,"text":"那最高檢察署在提起非常上述的時候我們會建立法院在撤銷實行確定判決時要裁定羈押那我們也會要求立庭檢察官在具體論告羈押的必要性務實法院能夠裁定羈押那有關重大暴力犯罪我們會"},{"start":2821.482,"end":2835.959,"text":"從嚴追溯處罰．本部將要求檢察官嚴謹修正、審酌具體個案情節向法院具體求出死刑前面解釋暴力犯罪行為太陽嚴懲重罰暴力的犯罪那我們"},{"start":2838.289,"end":2852.421,"text":"憲法法庭對於實行制度宣告核限對判處及知性實行附加實體及程序的限制本部基於依法行政尊重憲法法庭判決結果憲法判決宣告前本部籌組應變小組嚴厲各種判決結果可能"},{"start":2856.408,"end":2882.753,"text":"判決宣告後．立即啟動相關應變機制．並積極檢視主管相關法規．本部將持續落實嚴懲暴力犯罪及保護犯罪被害人的工作．務求兼顧人權、保障及社會責任．以上報告進行主席．各位委員指教其餘機關是否要做口頭的補充報告?那個警政署或衛福部有沒有?"},{"start":2883.598,"end":2909.195,"text":"沒有好那如果沒有的話就請參照書面好 機關代表報告完畢那相關書面內容列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘那非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘不再延長上午10點30分截止發言那我們現在請登記第一位的委員黃國昌委員進行發言"},{"start":2921.524,"end":2938.7,"text":"親愛的主席,麻煩有請司法院代理秘書長以及法務部部長代理秘書長、部長委員好代理秘書長,請問你會代理到什麼時候?"},{"start":2941.669,"end":2946.974,"text":"你不是申請回歸審判了嗎?通過了沒有?人審會還沒有開,明天會開明天會開,但你自己的意願是要回歸審判嗎?"},{"start":2960.507,"end":2975.881,"text":"因為所有的調動都是會需要法官表示意願的一旦你回歸審判以後秘書長的位置會有些代理我想假設有新的這個"},{"start":2977.728,"end":2979.688,"text":"是規定在司法院主持法還是司法院初步規程裡?"},{"start":3008.939,"end":3009.52,"text":"還有沒有來看一下齁就是"},{"start":3037.296,"end":3054.185,"text":"死刑判決要經過各級法院和議庭的一致決我們現在死刑是採取強制上訴的制度不管在第一審也好、第二審也好、第三審也好你要判死刑只有一個選擇就是要一致決這樣的解釋沒有錯吧?要判死刑就是一致決有哪一個國家是採取這樣的制度?"},{"start":3064.475,"end":3065.355,"text":"請委員指教"},{"start":3088.988,"end":3115.39,"text":"我對於我們的憲法法庭自己立法立到這種程度我老實講我是探核官職你要強化正當法律程序這沒有問題但問題是什麼憲法法庭利用做成判決或解釋的時候自己扮演起立法者的角色還創造了一個獨立全球的制度我只有看過一審的時候是40審嘛"},{"start":3117.386,"end":3144.456,"text":"要求一致決在美國大部分的州都是這個樣子這個沒有問題但我從來沒有看過除了40層以外上訴到法律省的時候也要求一致決如果上訴到法律省的時候也要求一致決那問題很嚴重我為什麼說問題很嚴重我具體請教一下秘書長代理秘書長如果高等法院判決死刑"},{"start":3145.64,"end":3161.708,"text":"上述到最高法院最高法院有四個法官認為這個死刑可以維持因為屬於情節最嚴重之罪有一個法官不這麼認為此時這個時候最高法院的何一庭應該怎麼處理廢棄發揮還是自圍判決如果說有堅持堅持那當然何一庭他們會會去溝通協調溝通協調那他們就4比1啊"},{"start":3175.378,"end":3187.247,"text":"實際上面到底有多少案件是4比1的我沒有在跟你講過去的事啦我說現在的事情啦現在有個高等法院三個法官一字決判死刑"},{"start":3188.493,"end":3188.593,"text":"我想..."},{"start":3207.743,"end":3222.094,"text":"如果說他要撤銷發回他當然有可能就要撤銷發回請事實審再周真佐如果說他真的要自己判那當然不能判死刑沒有判死刑的話就照我們的評議的最重的不能過"},{"start":3222.734,"end":3225.115,"text":"實務上面意見不一致怎麼處理這件事情到目前為止都是採取過半數的多數決嘛"},{"start":3244.599,"end":3267.17,"text":"所以就沒有啦你採取過判數的多數決就不會有問題嘛大家有不同的意見的時候在評議部上面寫意見嘛啊如果可以講到大家意見都一致就意見一致嘛就不會有在評議部上記的問題嘛那我現在的問題是說當最高法院的法官是4比1的時候所以這個時候你從司法院啊"},{"start":3268.753,"end":3282.887,"text":"憲法法庭做出檢視以後他的檢視必須要夠清楚讓下級審所有法院的法官知道接下來我們要怎麼做裁判所以4比1的時候是我們的評議規則要改變就聽那一個人的是嗎"},{"start":3284.775,"end":3285.515,"text":"好 第二個當最高法院 認為"},{"start":3310.154,"end":3338.409,"text":"五個都同意應該要判死刑屬於情節最嚴重之罪但情節最嚴重之罪是我們憲法法庭所增加現在法律所沒有的概念非常抽象的要件概念非常抽象因為我國的所有刑事實體法法典裡面沒有一個構成要件要素叫做情節最嚴重憲法法庭自己本身的判決有沒有違反法律明確性恐怕"},{"start":3339.491,"end":3361.166,"text":"自己都必須要接受檢驗啊我國的刑法點什麼時候有一個構成要件要素叫做情節罪嚴重啊但沒有關係最高法院的法官認為五個都認為這是情節罪嚴重被告他可以申請什麼憲法裁判嘛要求憲法法院審查這是不是情節罪嚴重我的說明有沒有錯誤"},{"start":3366.226,"end":3373.37,"text":"應該是正確的應該是正確嘛到憲法法庭了以後問題來了憲法法庭15位大法官對於是不是符合他們所做成的情節最嚴重之罪請問要不要求一字決"},{"start":3382.679,"end":3411.812,"text":"目前沒有要求目前沒有要求所以這個邏輯是什麼是不是可以請戴琳秘書長幫我們開示一下下級審法院的法官要死刑都要一致決但憲法法庭如果要維持死刑的判決可以不要一致決這個是我們憲法法庭所揭示的標準嗎這個叫做沒有合理的懷疑嗎這個叫做程序保障最嚴密嗎還是大法官比較大所以不需要一致決來請戴琳秘書長"},{"start":3412.895,"end":3435.47,"text":"中文報告因為憲法法庭不會自己做死刑判決所以說因 剛才要說你要維持死刑判決先等一下啦你說憲法法庭不會自己做自己的判決你講這句話就錯了嘛我們過去的大法官在大法官解釋裡面創設了自己多少法律所沒有明文的規定的權限當初定暫時狀態的處分就是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":3438.069,"end":3454.485,"text":"怎麼會憲法法庭沒有辦法自己做自己的判決做的可多了欸創設了一堆他的法律所沒有的權限代理秘書長事件的實務可能還是要熟一點啦我還是回來原來的問題啊請問憲法法庭的判決要不要求一致決"},{"start":3455.97,"end":3471.483,"text":"跟委員報告目前憲法法庭是沒有要求要一致決那奇怪了我們憲法法庭不是說程序保障要最嚴密下級審都要一致決只有他們自己不要一致決這個法理啊非常的精深啊是不是可以請代理秘書長幫我們解釋一下因為"},{"start":3474.673,"end":3503.892,"text":"大法官憲判字也只要求是宣判死刑的案件需要一致決也沒有說其他的部分要一致決那憲法法庭目前就我所知也沒有自己去判決死刑當然不會自己判決死刑嘛你上訴到最高法院的時候是不是要以判決違背法令當理由是吧一個特定的案子是不是屬於情節最嚴重之罪看法不一樣的時候是不是屬於判決違背法令"},{"start":3505.285,"end":3526.025,"text":"我這樣說沒有錯吧對嘛 所以你即使是法律省的最高法院按照我們憲判字所做出來的解釋都要求一致決啊我的說明有錯嗎請你用麥克風回答這樣子大家根本不知道你的答案是什麼嘛那一樣嘛"},{"start":3527.29,"end":3551.711,"text":"如果最高法院是法律審要求一致決我以最高法院所維持的死刑判決是不是屬於情節最嚴重之罪申請憲法裁判憲法法庭做的一樣啊他只要維持了就是死刑啊他不維持的話那個死刑可能就要被撤銷了嘛所以我的問題來啦憲法法庭的判決要不要求一致決"},{"start":3553.206,"end":3571.68,"text":"那你剛剛給大家的說明是從憲判字裡面並沒有要求憲法法庭要一致決嘛我的說明有沒有錯對嘛 所以我們的大法官他要求的是什麼你們下級審法院全部都要一致決啊但我憲法法庭可以不用沒有關係啊搞成這個樣子現有的死刑犯終審判決是不是都有一致決"},{"start":3581.036,"end":3588.45,"text":"這個查完了沒有?現在還在調查調卷了解當中奇怪才37個案子欸啊這個調卷要這麼久喔?還需要多久?"},{"start":3592.745,"end":3593.225,"text":"所以清完沒有?"},{"start":3618.302,"end":3620.123,"text":"國民法官判死有要求一字決嗎?"},{"start":3638.103,"end":3656.192,"text":"跟委員報告國民法官判死沒有現在三分之二那剛才有跟委員報告那憲判字之後就是其他其中三位職業法官必須自決然後如果說不是啊這就很奇怪了嘛這又回到了我們憲判字的解釋嘛他不是要求程序保障最嚴密嗎"},{"start":3657.964,"end":3686.219,"text":"那為什麼國民法官的不要求一字決這個我看不懂啊跟委員報告因為國民法官法不在這一次那個四限標的範圍這次四限標的是四條我一開始有報告四條刑法的條文所以大法官也有講李委員也有講如果說將來大院或者是我們研議的時候也認為說國民法官的沒有啊你們當初研議的時候許中立送來的版本只要過半數捏"},{"start":3688.735,"end":3695.759,"text":"這是你們司法院送來的版本耶司法院送給立法院審議法案的版本司法院院長要不要點頭"},{"start":3697.33,"end":3719.449,"text":"需要還是不需要跟委員報告當然要但是司法院本身並不等於憲法法庭這個我知道啊我現在只有在問司法院的立場嘛因為你剛剛已經逃脫到從憲法法庭到司法院接下來的立法政策嘛那我現在就直接請教司法院嘛就國民法官法的部分司法院有打算要求一致決嗎"},{"start":3723.377,"end":3735.128,"text":"還要研議多久不是啦 因為我覺得司法院啊很莫名其妙當初國民法官法送來的時候說要求只要過半數就好啦奇怪了我們司法院的立場是變來變去喔"},{"start":3741.581,"end":3769.554,"text":"因為我們那時候並沒有憲判字出來指示所以說跟當時的時空恐怕不一樣好了最後一個問題死刑限於個案犯罪情節最嚴重這個案犯罪情節最嚴重怎麼解釋我想那個憲判字的理由裡面已經有講那法官在個案裁量的時候對啊但是他都沒有給解釋喔他有給那個正面跟負面的他全部都是用什麼用舉例的方式喔"},{"start":3771.041,"end":3799.014,"text":"所有的法律人就會要求啦什麼叫做情節最嚴重這主要有個解釋吧如果連大法官自己都解釋不出來那請問以後要下級審法院的法官要如何解釋適用啊就看他們的例子喔好那你說要看他們的例子來我問下面例子是動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪結果請問這是三者則一就是屬於情節最嚴重還是三個全部都要具備"},{"start":3801.021,"end":3821.329,"text":"跟委員報告齁 那實務上面的這個法官大概會綜合考量 也不是先停一下齁 我先不要推到未來實務上的法官依照憲法法庭解釋 解釋的內容 這三個犯罪動機與目的手段與參與程度 犯罪結果 它全部都有歷史嘛那這個是要同時具備"},{"start":3825.803,"end":3841.771,"text":"還是其中一個滿足就可以了這很重要啊我想跟委員報告齁因為我們當法官的這麼久去審判歷史這些東西我相信大部分的法官都有能力就這邊去沒有沒有沒有我沒有說法官沒能力現在我只說就這三個歷史的是要同時具備"},{"start":3842.911,"end":3858.173,"text":"還是擇一就好不好意思我請他這個問題回答完就結束了跟委員報告就是綜合判斷因為每個案的情形每一個情況都不一樣今天說要去切割說一定是擇一我想這一部分恐怕跟訴訟實務是不相符的啦"},{"start":3859.13,"end":3878.996,"text":"怎麼會跟訴訟實務不相符啊?你以後就這個情節最嚴重是動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪的結果是不是都要求?是不是都要求他所立誓的情況?他每一個當然都要去做斟酌但是每一個情況不一樣你在做良心"},{"start":3880.987,"end":3888.781,"text":"判斷的時候每一個的比重多少法官應該本應他的確信依照他的良心去做斟酌今天不是一加一等於二的問題訴訟也沒有那麼單純"},{"start":3890.322,"end":3910.367,"text":"沒有啦 這不是1加1等於2的問題我時間到了啦 請你再冷靜的回去想一想我今天問的這個問題 我跟你保證未來的審判實務上每一個法官全部都會遇到這樣的問題他在斟酌這三個要件要素的時候是不是都要符合大法官所講的歷史"},{"start":3912.29,"end":3940.733,"text":"這影響非常深遠這影響非常深遠請秘書長稍微自己想一下這個問題如果沒有解決的話未來要負責審判的法官根本就無所適從好 謝謝秘書長這後面這段我也聽不下去這個解釋最嚴重這樣解釋我沒辦法接受司法實務我沒走過司法實務啊但這個"},{"start":3942.485,"end":3971.091,"text":"不好意思那我們接下來請那個審法會委員發言主席我們請司法院麻煩秘書長委員好"},{"start":3972.198,"end":3999.767,"text":"秘書長好這個我想在我開始我今天想要談的問題之前先就剛才的一些法律上的問題來做跟這個秘書長這邊來溝通一下第一個剛才這個前面方委員的質詢裡面對於所謂情節最嚴重這個部分他認為是不明確的法律概念他認為是大法官的創制"},{"start":4001.547,"end":4025.878,"text":"但是其實齁這個所謂情節最嚴重這絕對不是大法官的創制他也不是說從來沒有出現過他就出現在什麼他就是我們台灣有簽署的這個公民與政治權利的國際公約第6條裡面他就寫得非常清楚他說凡未廢除死刑之國家非犯罪情節最重大之罪就是這裡"},{"start":4027.228,"end":4041.014,"text":"對不對所以他事實上他並不是大法官創製的這個這個名詞而是公正公約裡面第二條裡面已經有的答文對他是公約裡面本來就已經有的這是第一點齁核先續名但是就算吶齁"},{"start":4042.608,"end":4057.397,"text":"就算沒有這個國際公約事實上我認為這大法官會議解釋裡面對於所謂犯罪情節最嚴重的我認為他就是個闡明而已他就是闡明再次闡明說判處死刑必須是情節最嚴重的"},{"start":4060.579,"end":4085.87,"text":"這個我想如果沒有這個大法官會議解釋這個本來就是這樣子啊我們過去所判的有情節不嚴重的判死刑嗎我們可以說情節不嚴重我們就把判他死刑嗎不行啊死刑本身他就是我們的最高刑度目前制度下的最高刑度他當然是情節最嚴重才能判死刑啊對不對所以大法官會議做這個解釋他事實上只是再度纏綿死刑他必須嚴謹必須謹慎所以他必須是情節最嚴重對不對我這樣解釋"},{"start":4091.38,"end":4108.632,"text":"實務上面以往要判死刑大概也都是因為那個公正公約早就已經簽署了所以不會說因為大法官會議做了這個解釋所以讓原本會判會判的法官變得無所適從用剛才黃委員的講話變得無所適從應該沒有這樣的問題吧跟委員報告因為公正公約早就已經我們已經簽署了國內法所以他已經有這個要求了對好這個齁因為這個"},{"start":4121.584,"end":4124.008,"text":"我在這裡我也是希望就是說因為從這個9月20號憲法法庭做出這個"},{"start":4128.883,"end":4140.552,"text":"憲判第8號之後這個社會大家對於這個憲判的內容有諸多的評論那裡面有一些我看了這些評論我覺得很有道理但是有一些評論我個人認為說這個是這個錯誤的理解憲判的第8號判決所以我在這裡大概簡單的做這樣子的解釋看看這個秘書長怎麼看我認為這個大概"},{"start":4155.484,"end":4171.257,"text":"大概這個憲判第8號它就是四個內容其實它就是四個內容第一個它就是宣告如果唯一死刑是違憲目前唯一死刑的法條是違憲因為它沒有任何的衡量空間按照符合這個構成要件你就必須判死刑"},{"start":4171.957,"end":4191.337,"text":"所以他認為這個是違憲第一個就是唯一死刑違憲第二個就是剛剛所講的他再次闡明了死刑僅適用於這個個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的情形這就是我剛剛講他再次闡明這個判處死刑的這個原則第三就是說"},{"start":4192.981,"end":4211.798,"text":"他就死刑的部分這個部分是是可能是我們必須在修法上面做最大更動的就是在這個這個這個死刑判決他的程序必須更嚴謹程序必須更嚴謹所以他增加了一些程序的過去沒有的程序要求例如說這個三審必須延遲辯論剛剛所提的那必須強制辯護還有這個各級的這個何玉婷必須一致決這剛剛都講過那大概就是這些程序更嚴謹"},{"start":4219.672,"end":4245.617,"text":"這個程序嚴謹的要求大概就是我講的這個判決第3點第4點就是說他有關這個心智缺陷障礙的部分他設定特殊的一些程序過去我們規定的時候說你行為時的心智障礙但是現在加上審判時包括受刑時都必須心智能力健全對不對所以大概大法院會議解釋就是這4點所以這4點這樣集合起來現在大家把這個大法院會議這個憲判"},{"start":4248.177,"end":4266.484,"text":"這個憲判的這個這個第8號直接下一個標題叫做實質廢死我個人是非常不認同的他事實上沒有廢死也沒有實質實質上也沒有廢死他死刑就還是存在死刑還是存在他就是增加了對於判決死刑過程中的程序要求更嚴謹是不是這樣"},{"start":4269.606,"end":4285.858,"text":"那委員告見是不是是嘛齁所以所謂實質廢死所謂實質廢死我認為這就是這就是扣帽第一個是扣帽子第二個就是說我認為說事實上實質我認為這個判決實質上就沒有廢死他就死刑依然存在只是把死刑的要件這個必須判處死刑的這個要件定得更加嚴謹那當然這也會產生一些問題這個這個"},{"start":4299.417,"end":4322.633,"text":"我剛所講的這些齁還有包括這個這個剛才剛才黃委員在質詢過程中對於這個各省齁要各級各級都必須要一致決的這部分他認為這個是他認為這個是是法官愉悅大法官愉悅司法權權利齁所創所所這個這個進行立法的工作阿事實上"},{"start":4323.752,"end":4344.679,"text":"大法官從過去的大法官會議解釋到現在的憲法判決到從美國歷史上的憲法修正案這一些他就是法官造法的一部分是不是這樣我們現在所引用的憲法修正案這個大家最常引用美國憲法第5修正案他就是一個法官造法的結果"},{"start":4345.643,"end":4371.44,"text":"其實是闡明憲法規定的這個內涵對那他希望說事實上法官造法他確實是在透過大法官一解釋本身的功能他就法官造法的功能在裡面啊所以這個也沒有我個人認為也沒有所謂什麼什麼什麼前所未見什麼什麼這個我覺得這個都是都是言過其實事實上他就是一個法官造法他是一個非常符合符合現在這個憲政體制的一個過程"},{"start":4375.227,"end":4390.296,"text":"那我這個部分我大概花了一些時間來闡明也是希望說明讓社會理解大法官會議所做的這個憲法判決第8號我覺得它事實上根本離實質廢止還非常非常非常的遠"},{"start":4391.903,"end":4411.01,"text":"他完全沒有廢死他就是把這個程序做得嚴謹而已這是第一點但是我剛剛講過說這裡面他大概事實上也會牽涉到幾個問題尤其是國人大概最關心的從這個判決出來之後憲法判決出來之後最關心的就是目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人的相關問題"},{"start":4414.3,"end":4424.33,"text":"這個在憲法法院所做的這個憲判第8號裡面也做得非常清楚的而且也是一個重點也是在憲法判決裡面的一個重點那這個他大概提就是說"},{"start":4431.916,"end":4451.558,"text":"現在受這個宣告他大概提幾個要件可以提出非常上述可以申請或者是這個檢察總長依職權兩個程序兩個方法擇依可以申請也可以這個大法官這個檢察總長依職權他大概幾個要件第一個就是說他的犯罪情節非屬"},{"start":4453.415,"end":4464.426,"text":"最嚴重這部分看似比較抽象但事實上它裡面有一些產名對於這個必須要直接故意必須該掛故意必須擇一故意這個有做一些產名"},{"start":4467.452,"end":4490.921,"text":"那第二點他就是說你如果引用的法條你當初被判死刑引用的法條是唯一死刑的法條你這個就可以提非常上訴對不對那第三點就是說如果這個程序不符合他現在所提的這些程序包括沒有言詞辯論包括沒有自決包括這個沒有強制辯護那你就可以提非常上訴對不對那第四個"},{"start":4492.267,"end":4521.81,"text":"第4點他就說除了你申請有這次有申請解釋的案件以外其他的案件你即使沒有申請的案件你也可以用個案究記對不對大概他解釋的就這四個那依照這樣子的這個大法官會議解釋這個部分這個我們目前這37名死刑這37名受宣告死刑的這個受刑人他們你們什麼時候可以檢視完成他們到底是37個人哪一些人可以會符合這些要件"},{"start":4522.641,"end":4535.73,"text":"跟委員報告剛才委員可能有一點就是說今天針對因為原則上這憲判如果宣告違憲的話是向後的那是例外才針對這37位有申請的部分所以說不在這個申請範圍內的話那不當然可以是適用不當然但是大法官會議裡面有提阿他有提說其他非申請的案件亦可割案就緝阿那是割案就緝"},{"start":4548.078,"end":4573.646,"text":"那至於說這37位我們會盡快因為很多大部分都要經過那個檢察總長檢察總長去做斟酌審酌了以後認為有必要申請非常上訴才去那我們一定會盡速的來如果有盡速去檢視這些這個部分我想事實上我們還是希望說社會大家能夠清楚這個我們目前大法官所做的憲法判決"},{"start":4574.397,"end":4594.43,"text":"他裡面要求這個判處死刑的這個程序必須嚴謹嚴謹的過程跟這個我們現在社會上大家對於說對是否情節嚴重的判斷這部分可能在法感情上有落差因此在這幾天就有案件說哎呀這個情節非屬是不是屬最嚴重結果他的死刑"},{"start":4595.693,"end":4600.656,"text":"被改判無期徒刑定驗的爭執爭議它的關鍵點其實是在於就這個犯罪行為是否屬情節最重大的"},{"start":4611.323,"end":4617.424,"text":"相關的新政的問題跟社會上面法感情之間的落差這個一直都有這個問題就不要說判死刑這個你連詐欺案你連這個悲心罪你連這個這些的都會有這種法官所做判決他跟社會的這個法感情之間有落差這部分我希望能夠改善最後這個因為時間也到了最後就補充我個人認為非常重要的部分我希望司法院法務部跟這個衛福部能夠一起來研擬"},{"start":4639.028,"end":4663.255,"text":"就是因為我們這次新增了這個這個憲法判決之後新增了過去是只要你只有說你在行為時沒有這個這個這個必須身心狀態健全那這現在在審判中在甚至最後的受刑時你要有受刑的能力也就是說你被判死刑之後如果你在被判死刑之後才發瘋才心智上心神喪失那也不能執行這個部分這個部分"},{"start":4666.235,"end":4687.937,"text":"社會上最大的質疑就是說那我裝瘋賣傻就好啦我裝瘋賣傻我就不用執行死刑了那這個部分我想他就回歸到不管你是不是在死刑上面都一樣即使在刑違時也一樣現在目前是刑違時我只要裝瘋賣傻說我那時候是瘋的我就可以免除刑責嗎顯然不是因為我們有一套"},{"start":4689.028,"end":4702.238,"text":"有一套精神鑑定的流程但是我要在這裡提醒司法院、法務部這個憲判判決出來之後跟過去最大的差別是什麼"},{"start":4703.426,"end":4731.66,"text":"過去我精神科醫師我所做的這樣子的鑑定是針對你行為時的精神狀態做鑑定我鑑定出來你的精神狀態沒有問題跟你會不會判死刑跟你這個犯人會不會死沒有必然的關係因為你還必須接受後面的審判可能那時候還但是所謂受刑能力的鑑定他就直接牽涉了對我精神科醫生來講我鑑定你精神狀態健全你就要執行死刑"},{"start":4732.641,"end":4736.121,"text":"我我鑒定你精神狀態有問題你就可以不用執行死刑"},{"start":4738.947,"end":4761.235,"text":"這個對這個做精神鑑定的這個醫學倫理上面來講這是非常非常重大的挑戰這部分我希望說相關的規定我們這個司法院法務部司法院法務部跟衛福部我們必須要就這個新增的這個受刑能力的精神鑑定的部分做更嚴謹的相關的規定、客觀的規定好不好好 以上好 謝謝委員的這個關心好 謝謝 那請回"},{"start":4764.676,"end":4782.569,"text":"我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝主席,有請我們司法院代理秘書長,本房秘書長,還有我們法務部啊,我們政部長"},{"start":4788.004,"end":4808.075,"text":"秘書長還有我們部長早我想這個死刑到底要不要廢或者讓它繼續存在這個是一個世紀的爭論倒不是現在才凸顯出來我們去看到在今年憲判字第8號這樣的一個憲法法庭判決出來以後"},{"start":4812.668,"end":4831.514,"text":"社會輿論看起來是炸鍋我讓在場幾位的委員立場怎麼樣我相信大家都非常清楚我不認為這個是一個對錯的問題一個國家所採的憲政如果採的是一個立憲主義是一個憲政制度的話那你就必須要去肯認"},{"start":4833.253,"end":4856.609,"text":"憲法是一個拘束各個機關裡面的一部最高的一個法律那當然就是由大法官就是我們現在憲法法庭來做這一個解釋那我去看到本院的同仁也去提到說大法官解釋不一定能完全拘束立法院老實說我聽到這句話我是嚇出一身冷汗"},{"start":4857.409,"end":4872.689,"text":"我嚇出一身冷汗所以我要來就教我們司法院秘書長的其實我今天看這個答詢我看部長跟代理秘書長的答詢我看了以後我很想跟你們鼓掌你們立場本來就可以有所不同"},{"start":4874.022,"end":4890.816,"text":"本來就可以有所不同站在法務部的立場尤其是站在打擊犯罪第一線檢察官的一個立場他災間發福打擊重大的一個犯罪他本來就是有義務有責任來維護整個國家的一個法律的一個秩序他更嚴苛他甚至於認為說你這個罪犯"},{"start":4896.775,"end":4916.649,"text":"罪無可恕我覺得這個立場我都很可以接受但是站在司法院的立場的話你本來就是在做判決各級法院在做判決我要好好的去檢視你整個偵查階段或者依審判決你認識用法在採用這個證據有沒有任何瑕疵為師的地方如果說今天大家認為說這個很可惡"},{"start":4924.361,"end":4938.12,"text":"實行了很快我也知道這很快啊我也知道這很快啊但重點是說如果更站在各級法院的立場再去做證據做嚴格的一個一個檢視甚至於這一次憲判字第8號裡面講出來的其實"},{"start":4940.763,"end":4957.323,"text":"很多本院的委員認為說這個是實質上廢死我倒是不把它解讀說這個叫廢死啦是認為應該是各級法院或檢察官會認為說要讓這個被告來判處死刑更困難了這個我接受 這個我接受"},{"start":4959.727,"end":4967.393,"text":"我怎麼會不知道站在司法院或者大法官的一個立場裡面他們比較傾向於廢死的主張廢死我也不認為是一個罪惡喔我也認為這個是一個價值喔那但是這個社會以現在的氛圍可能大家認為說感動你感動得了但是去把整個法律正當程序去把它更嚴謹的話"},{"start":4983.817,"end":4992.972,"text":"本席是覺得是認同的喔站在法務部的立場比如說一個兇殺案發生連續殺死了好多人請勞官當然是具體把你給求刑阿"},{"start":4994.346,"end":5013.835,"text":"一審的法院尤其是一審的法院那個時候整個社會的氛圍一定是對他產生很大的一個壓力一審去判處死刑我覺得是很有可能的可是到了二審呢他在檢視法律的時候他看你偵查程序裡面或者認為說他好像還不用到死刑"},{"start":5015.928,"end":5040.364,"text":"想法會有所不同你是完全要讓他從這個社會裡面去把他讓他消失掉還是說讓他有機會重新再回到這個社會從來就是爭論從過去的犯罪學的那麼多學派裡面爭論你也找不到一致的一個答案我簡單講好了啦今天如果說底下有一個人去殺了好多人"},{"start":5042.284,"end":5047.366,"text":"碰到在檢察官偵查的時候或法案在審判的時候跟你說我錯了趕快讓我死吧這個符合民意的期待嗎像這種情況我都覺得太便宜他了我都認為你想死了就解脫我之所以死刑的存在就是要報復你啊我應該讓你生不如死才對啊所以我一直認為這個問題法務部沒錯"},{"start":5070.057,"end":5097.154,"text":"法務部更主張覺得什麼死刑廢除掉那整個社會的治安法律的一個秩序誰來維護法務部講到我的立場我就認為沒有不對喔但是司法院你再去做一個審量考量的話我也沒有我認為讓整個法律正當程序讓他更嚴謹這個也是對的喔所以我期許啊司法院你到立法院來啊就按照整個憲政的一個秩序啊我自己設計啊我也不好意思跟你說話說太多"},{"start":5099.124,"end":5125.076,"text":"你若無表現比較小,不然怎麼說?抬頭頂上,不卑不亢,這個才叫做法律人,這個沒有對錯。立法委員的質詢常常在呼應短期的民粹,所以那一把尺還是要堅持住。你像比如說,我們整個法律的一個規定就講得非常清楚,"},{"start":5126.629,"end":5152.383,"text":"你說到底這個整個憲法是國家誰最大當然憲法最大當然要拘束各個機關你去看看我們憲法第78條賦予整個我們現在大法官裡面他去解釋法律跟命令的一個義務那你如果說大法官在審查說到底這個法律合不合憲當然是大法官憲法法庭他是自己去做出獨立的一個判斷"},{"start":5153.527,"end":5157.433,"text":"那所以啊所以啊我在這個地方啊一直針對這樣的一個問題啊"},{"start":5159.651,"end":5186.233,"text":"這次的憲判字做出來以後我也有很大的一個感慨你說4至185號裡面司法院解釋憲法他也明文講得很清楚居宿各機關的效力4至405號也講得很清楚表明很清楚立法權甚至於不能依約司法院所做的憲法上的一個解釋只是說本院立法院他在立法的時候我們有自然形成的這樣的一個自由我們該怎麼立法不是你司法院管得到的"},{"start":5186.934,"end":5209.949,"text":"但重點是說立出來的東西要接受到整個憲法法庭這都受到大法官我以前說叫大法官會議受到他的一個拘束這個是很明確的一個揭示啦除非我們不採立憲主義啦每一個國家採的制度不一樣啊你如果老共的地方什麼你憲法很大什麼你司法院什麼憲法法庭很大習近平最大帝制的時候就是皇帝講的最大"},{"start":5214.212,"end":5225.698,"text":"你說這有沒有什麼道理 這也沒道理啊這就制度有所不同啊各有所失 各失其職啊但我有幾個問題要來做一個請教啦就是說我們如果說真的要去採硬報的話那是不是你教育的部分都不用了如果全部要採硬報的話法務部也必須要去做思考啊那你監獄裡面的矯正的一個制度"},{"start":5242.386,"end":5257.831,"text":"那個觀念也會顛覆掉喔也會顛覆掉喔所以博定我知道你的立場這個法務部會有壓力司法院當然會有壓力但司法院都不應該有壓力司法院都不應該受到民粹的一個影響林本人就不應該啊這個制度是要可長可遠"},{"start":5264.707,"end":5279.606,"text":"很多立法院的委員他認為死刑怎麼可以把我給廢掉這樣的一個主張他其實利益也都良善喔利益也都良善喔我也不認為說死刑廢掉以後啊整個國家"},{"start":5280.807,"end":5297.138,"text":"好像這個社會秩序啊或者說整個治安全部都會崩垮掉很多替代方式啊我在講的啦我都一直想因為我很怕被人家講說我很不文明啊不然我就覺得死刑都太便宜了這一些所謂的犯罪行為人欸比如說叫我來做出一個判決的話這些人到底要不要判處死刑罪行非常重、非常可惡手段非常殘忍"},{"start":5310.199,"end":5328.585,"text":"啊真的他跟你說我真的好殘忍給我死吧你就真的叫我當法官我就讓你死哪那麼便宜你我就是讓你生不如死所以我這樣講也不代表我這個觀念有所不對啊每一個人對這一個罪行對他的厭惡度感受會不同法官也是人啊"},{"start":5334.195,"end":5350.861,"text":"法官當然也會有所不同所以我看到這個憲判字第8號我確實是感受到以後判處死刑會變更困難但是相對的也要讓你整個因為它是重罪人命確實是不可剝奪它很有可能一有閃失的話那確實不可恢復讓整個法律正當性更嚴謹我是覺得是好事但是法務部你也不用有壓力"},{"start":5363.311,"end":5367.975,"text":"今天我也不用有壓力啊我就把你具體抽取死刑啊我的立場哪有不對"},{"start":5369.369,"end":5383.596,"text":"我站在法務部長的立場哪有不對?我站在檢察官的立場哪有不對?你就是該死我檢察官本來就是要打擊犯罪可是站在法院的立場就覺得說你當初在社會案、刑案當下發生的時候社會那裡那麼轟動那大家怕也怕死社會老百姓這樣要求你嘛所以檢察官這樣去做是對的啊可是問題是說那法院呢?法院你說完全都是照著檢察官的那就不用審法院了,我們就都有檢察官就好了"},{"start":5397.068,"end":5414.717,"text":"所以我本來其實還要針對我們整個再審那個新事實新證據那個部分再跟你們來做一個探討但是今天我也不敢耽誤其他同仁的一個時間但是我倒覺得說在討論到底要不要讓它實行的時候其實"},{"start":5416.889,"end":5429.798,"text":"大家都說得利得好啦沒有壓力啦法務部你也沒有壓力啦大膽的講出你自己的想法啦我就是反對廢死啦法務部的立場也可以也很正常啦你站在司法院的立場我讓你整個法律程序更嚴謹這也都是合理的啦以上我不知道秘書長你有看到嗎簡單給我回應一下"},{"start":5436.783,"end":5439.264,"text":"所以憲法法庭其實他所做出來的判決他當然是拘束各個機關吧"},{"start":5456.98,"end":5473.168,"text":"當然,因為他是對憲法這個解釋,所有全國的各機關當然都要在憲法之下才能夠去行使職權。我們不用採立憲主義,可以不拘束啊,採帝制就可以不拘束啊,皇帝下個命令就可以啊。我給你簡單給他回應一下,好嗎?"},{"start":5493.477,"end":5494.184,"text":"在各單位開始會議"},{"start":5501.014,"end":5519.439,"text":"世紀的一個爭論的一個問題在社會產生波瀾很正常各有立場你們就好好去把它做堅持沒有人可以講你們對還是不對就是說理嘛就這麼簡單嘛你說在野黨的主張廢食的合不合理我也認為他講得非常有道理你要把它踩住的話你認為讓整個法律政策程序更嚴謹的話沒有什麼不對啦好不好一起加油啦"},{"start":5533.028,"end":5540.814,"text":"下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言那待會謝榮介委員發言完畢之後我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":5550.126,"end":5568.816,"text":"主席、在黨委員、監禁、列席的政府局長、市長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請司法院黃代理、秘書長以及法務部政部長還有衛福部的政代理市長市長委員好秘書長好、部長好、市長好秘書長"},{"start":5570.435,"end":5595.754,"text":"剛剛我很欽佩專委員所說的憲法第78條大法官的解釋是拘束最高的拘束你同意嗎?好那剛剛引述你剛剛的回答你認為這一次憲判的主要意旨是在嚴格嚴密宣判實行跟執行的這個程序是不是這樣?那他大法官的憲判有沒有宣告任何一條"},{"start":5597.228,"end":5616.599,"text":"規定死刑的條文是違憲的有沒有只有說300元在修法之前的348條唯一死刑的只有宣告說法條不可定唯一死刑但並沒有說法條定死刑是違憲所以從這個角度來講你認為如果簡單的解釋這次憲判有沒有去廢死"},{"start":5618.284,"end":5639.358,"text":"我們認為當然沒有廢時好那既然是這樣那我們剛剛聽到有位大委員不斷的對於憲判的意旨提出他個人的看法這裡我要表達我個人看法因為誠如剛剛莊委員所介入的不只是憲法第18條還有各項的憲法釋字的解釋其實立法院也是要遵守憲判跟大法院釋憲的決定對不對"},{"start":5641.179,"end":5665.964,"text":"那如果有不同意見是可以提出憲法訴訟那去跟大法官去辯論這也是我們過去在8月的時候憲法法庭看到的你也看到了嘛這個立法委員是可以以事先申請人或者訴訟相對人或關係人在憲法審判的時候憲法法庭開審的時候呢去對大法官進行延遲的交互辯論所以我們樂見呢如果有任何的不管職務上是不是立法委員"},{"start":5666.864,"end":5678.529,"text":"只要他認為他提出包括憲法訴訟他可以以相對人或關係人的身份去跟未來的大法官好好的談一下他對這次憲判要旨的不同意見"},{"start":5679.5,"end":5679.88,"text":"9月20號憲判第8號說"},{"start":5708.386,"end":5720.76,"text":"死刑事先後由兩位受死刑宣告的受刑人將可獲非常之上訴為什麼這兩位為什麼他可以馬上按麥克風"},{"start":5722.577,"end":5741.861,"text":"就是這兩位是因為那時候判決確定的時候星碼348他就是唯一死刑的秘書長所說的嘛那另外的35個人有沒有可能有機會提出非常上訴這部分我想總長在調卷有可能嘛有可能因為他們37個都有參與憲法訴訟他那個判他那個判的8號的判決是認為說他這個有那個心智缺陷"},{"start":5750.023,"end":5777.178,"text":"所以你認為有沒有可能全數都適用憲判意旨可以申請救濟呢?這部分還要帶檢討總長來好,這是檢討總長的權限那我們來看一下這次我們過去的死刑案件的執行流程可能這些被宣告死刑的受刑人他在被起訴前就被羈押了那目前他是在入監收容的情況未來在等候執行,是不是這樣?是好,那現在法務部呢如果檢討總長認為要提起非常上述以落實憲判的意旨那請問我們看到這個流程圖齁"},{"start":5779.119,"end":5808.536,"text":"那如果要提出非常上訴有可能這個會被駁回當然繼續收容對不對是但是有可能未來他如果進行這個非常上訴審理後發回更審就是准予撤銷原判決那法務部會促請他繼續羈押嗎對我們一定會一定會嘛一定會嘛至少這37個任何一個如果未來為了落實憲判意旨由總長認為他可以符合非常上訴提出了那那個"},{"start":5809.059,"end":5831.989,"text":"法院也接受撤銷員判決准予他發回更審那你們會促請積壓嗎?是不是這樣?這個我們要求在那個我們在那個最高法院的時候我們會促請那個會在建立法院最高法院要最高法院你要促請他積壓但他可能准報告的時候我們也是會要求你一定會這樣做但他也有可能駁回暫時釋放有可能嗎?有沒有這個可能?"},{"start":5833.103,"end":5851.842,"text":"如果有這個可能的話,我想我們會依照刑訴法416條,我們認為還是要抗告,如果說他不押。好,我了解。那我們來看一下,非常上訴之後,如果要發回更審,那麼法院在什麼情況之下可以羈押,一般就是一般羈押嘛,有逃亡之餘嘛,或者說他有反覆實施同一範圍行為,刑訴法101之1嘛,這兩種情況,"},{"start":5855.405,"end":5880.908,"text":"只要有這兩種情況,一定會促請法院羈押,是不是?這個我們會建立一定要羈押那如果到時候法院不予羈押,有沒有其他方法方式?如果說他那個,跟委員報告,如果說他那個這個有其他的圖形要執行,我們一定是先發指揮書,就直接就發件執行了吧就是說他除了死刑的判決,他還受其他的圖形的你會窮盡一切方式來防止他們"},{"start":5881.921,"end":5908.769,"text":"請問一下目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人大概受了什麼罪殺人、強盜殺人還有擄人勒贖其中有8位還涉及性侵殺人那請問一下根據保安處問執行法第4條法院可以對於應付監護、禁戒還有強制治療認為有緊急必要死請問緊急必要死誰要提出法院來認定誰要提出"},{"start":5909.844,"end":5935.624,"text":"你們認不認為這幾個可以透過包括《刑法第91條》之一性侵、強盜殺人、辱人、勒贖、可施以強制治療你們有主張這樣的可能性嗎目前現在還在他已經是在執行對我說未來如果說他的原判決被撤銷如果他非常上述成功原判決被撤銷他再暫行更審你們可以援引這《刑法第91條》之一要求致以強制治療嗎這是一個可行的途徑"},{"start":5941.213,"end":5965.305,"text":"我們是照那個憲法91條之1的規定來辦理是嗎 是可以嗎那如果是強制治療他就不能出來了嗎強制治療的話如果說法院有裁定強制治療當然一定要所以不一定羈押就算沒有准予羈押你們申請有緊急必要的時候你們提出根據91條之1也可以要求施以強制治療對不對這個法條規定是這樣的是這樣很好那我們再回到一個情況那現在大家爭議一個問題"},{"start":5966.405,"end":5980.317,"text":"那如果說有可能這些透過非常上述符合憲判意旨的他後來被改判為無期徒刑那麼社會上有一種呼聲說要讓他們不得假肆或者終身拘禁法務部的看法如何"},{"start":5982.684,"end":5996.582,"text":"若改判無期徒刑若說最高法院自我判決的話他馬上一判決就確定了我們就直接就法件執行了嗎是那如果無期徒刑他說有假設的規定大家的看法呢假設我們認為我們現在是研修我們認為"},{"start":5997.743,"end":6020.376,"text":"這個是屬於這個特殊性的一個憲法的判決是以前歷史上從來沒有的那我們有不一樣的思考我們也是應濟憲判的意思我們提出的一些的有要修法嗎要修我們原理性的要修類似這樣的你們會要求怎麼樣我們可能這部分我們研修我們認為是排除那個譬如說那個屬於最重要的故意殺人罪或殺人罪"},{"start":6021.056,"end":6022.859,"text":"如果未來修法也是在立法院"},{"start":6033.038,"end":6061.414,"text":"在修法通過之前好了修法通過之後現在這37位適不適用我們認為要重新適用要用新法來適用要以新法來適用也就是說如果說在他們在立法院修法照你的意思完成修法之前這37位有任何一位經過法委更審之後或判為無期徒刑那麼未來修法通過之後還是要適用修法那個新法是新法我們是要研修我們是比較你們是這樣主張的是不是我們是認為以適用新法的規定較為妥適"},{"start":6062.335,"end":6084.806,"text":"你們是那樣主張,也就是說未來無期徒刑不得假釋,如果這條法規、法條、修法上路了,那麼對於審判中的案子或者已經判決案子一起施用,這個姿勢的制度還是認為新法,我們認為就還合理。好,我了解你的態度,就剛剛莊委員說的,你可以有所立場有所表達,但是我們大家一起來討論好不好,往下看。那麼現在如果判無期徒刑,那什麼這37位假設,"},{"start":6086.741,"end":6106.159,"text":"受刑宣告：受無期徒刑：後來重新受無期徒刑宣告：他可以：過去這段時間的收容：可以扣抵刑期嗎因為這些人很多被壓很久了目前的話：跟委包目前是：要執行25年才達到假釋的門檻那這些37個人當中有沒有已經在執行執行前已經被"},{"start":6106.94,"end":6130.171,"text":"收容很久了這個收容是很久但是我們是反對我們是不認為這個不能抵扣那必須從他假設後來被宣告無期徒刑從執行開始才起算過去的不算我們認為是不算的你們認為是不算的那個收容的期限是不能折抵收容期限不能算必須從重新判決宣告無期徒刑開始執行才算對不對對"},{"start":6130.911,"end":6156.073,"text":"好那就是執行的問題那執行的問題這裡面呢我們看到假釋的規定包括有憲法第17條有圈毀實據的有圈毀實據的才可能可以申請而且監獄刑刑法這是你們主管的你們來審查的你們要從嚴審核有重大暴力的就不可以重大危害的也不可以出獄後會引發社會不安的也不可以這些從嚴審查的權利是不是在你們法務部手上"},{"start":6157.703,"end":6183.815,"text":"對 這個是由根據《建立憲法第116條》的規定以及受刑人假釋實施辦法第3條的規範來做一個你們有權利來決定判斷對不對這部分我們是不是請那個講完我繼續問嘛繼續問嘛那你怎麼判斷有圈毀實據強盜殺人等案件是不是應該從嚴審查這是政策你可以回答我想直接從政策面不從執行面我們是要求從嚴審核"},{"start":6184.835,"end":6209.555,"text":"就是這三個條件要重新審查那個跟委員報告齁從95年執行這個新制以來齁我們這個這個還沒有這些還沒有這些人沒有從來沒有符合假釋規定的你們重新審查好那這個就是社會在看因為社會對目前已經宣告執行的這37位的受刑人他很關注也對於未來如果有機會他們獲得會商上訴未來的重新"},{"start":6210.24,"end":6237.815,"text":"更審或判決,大家也在關注未來他們是否在繼續監獄裡面繼續受刑也非常關注,好,我們往下看但是有一個問題啊判決一旨呢,宣判8的主文當中他說受死刑是預知者,就算這些受死刑預知有精神障礙或是確認,剛剛我們的審委員問過了你要由精神科醫師來做精神鑑定,他可以申請嗎?這些受死刑勸告的受刑人可以主動申請如果來鑑定受刑能力,他們有沒有權利?這37位有沒有權利?"},{"start":6240.183,"end":6266.973,"text":"他們可以主張他們可以主張那誰來去找精神科醫師幫他們做判斷我想這個是屬於那個行為那個審理中這部分一個是審理一個是授刑授刑跟審理都一樣我現在談的是授刑來我們請那個心理那個行為師市長您覺得站在醫界的立場來講心理界精神醫師會接受這樣的委託來判斷授死刑宣告授刑人一旦他"},{"start":6267.625,"end":6276.019,"text":"沒有精神上的障礙可受死刑的獸刑你們會醫師能夠說他現在是符合獸刑的能力你們會有找到這樣醫師嗎"},{"start":6277.586,"end":6304.453,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們現在精神科醫師接受這個鑑定的嘱托要不就是法院來嘱托那是審理中的受審能力嘛要不就是檢察官來嘱托那就是說看行為之後有沒有行為能力那我們的精神科醫師最主要是利用他的醫學專業的知識如果是在這個行為史的話就看他當下的程度是不是有精神障礙我如果是精神科醫師涉及到行為史有沒有能力"},{"start":6305.333,"end":6326.568,"text":"那因為後來怎麼判是法院的事情嘛所以精神科醫師敢判他行為時有沒有精神上的障礙有沒有行為能力他的審判時、受審時有沒有受審能力能不能理解現在在審理什麼那個精神科醫師有沒有掛礙因為最後的結果不知道但是一旦結果知道就做死刑宣告你一旦認定他有受刑能力無精神障礙有受刑能力"},{"start":6328.895,"end":6337.462,"text":"認定有受刑能力的時候他要執行死刑喔你覺得作為一個醫師來講他能夠做出這樣的一個能承受這樣的壓力做出這樣的決定嗎"},{"start":6338.79,"end":6365.318,"text":"有關於這個執行時這個個案到底有沒有受刑的能力的話其實這個部分的鑑定精神科醫師最主要是說要去鑑定這個個案他是不是能夠理解死刑的判決的理由跟執行他到底了不了解這個部分所以我們的精神科醫師主要是在鑑定這個部分就是說他理解這個受刑是基於什麼理由他理解他理不理解如果他被關到老人室他不能理解那就永遠不能受刑是這樣嗎"},{"start":6367.078,"end":6393.045,"text":"我們精神科醫師最主要是提供他的醫學的專業的知識謝謝市長不為難你部長瞭解了現在憲判的意旨我們要落實因為大法官的權威的解釋我們行政機關、立法機關受其拘束但是執行的時候會發生這些問題要預為籌謀好不好是最後有兩個部分請主席再給我一點時間各國的執行狀況目前我們所瞭解的完全廢死的有佔百分之將近六成112個國家"},{"start":6395.365,"end":6405.371,"text":"最近5年無執行的是23個國家佔12%保留也就是說目前雖然沒有執行死刑但是過去5年有執行死刑的台灣目前是在哪一個位置"},{"start":6407.947,"end":6432.654,"text":"台灣現在是在這55啦簡單講完全廢死的將近6成國家將近6成沒有完全廢死的呢有將近4成台灣是在這4成對不對對好那我們來看一下那這是國家來看喔但是我們來看一下大多數人援引的美國各州的死刑各州因為美國這50個州完全廢死的是藍色的有23個州不到一半已經停止的呢有3個州"},{"start":6434.034,"end":6455.058,"text":"保留的是紅色的24個州換言之在美國以各州的立法來講不到一半是廢死其他超過一半還是有死刑的存在這你瞭解嗎?這瞭解那你們有沒有去做過調查研究這些跟台灣處境相同的美國各州或世界各國他們對於本席剛剛所提出的問題他們採取什麼樣的做法?"},{"start":6455.758,"end":6472.78,"text":"跟委員報告根據這個問題我們已經有委託研究了有委託研究了好那就是我要問最後一個問題了請法務部跟司法院也配套研究這主要國家的法律制度包括美國的各州包括對於受死刑宣告者受刑能力的精神鑑定他們如何處理"},{"start":6473.737,"end":6474.057,"text":"這部分我們是"},{"start":6500.266,"end":6512.211,"text":"這個我們再跟他們再溝通我要求要包含這三個問題因為這涉及到我們要落實憲判8號的意旨以及我們要了解社會要求安定的這樣的民心向背我們希望什麼時候可以提出來?你們的委託什麼時候可以好?"},{"start":6520.458,"end":6544.846,"text":"現在我們是委託那個大學機構在做報告在年底的話他們可以提出期末報告什麼時候?年底年底好年底齁我們想社會都期待我們希望呢在這段時間社會數目大法官是憲判第8號的決策的意思的內容的時候相關要落實的法條相關要進行的配套以及考慮到社會人心的安定的問題我們希望你們盡快把這樣的一個必須的配套"},{"start":6545.286,"end":6557.86,"text":"做跨國比較跟美國各州研究提出一個你要能夠符合台灣社會情境的要求的一個配套好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝那我們下一位請謝榮介委員發言"},{"start":6579.291,"end":6590.16,"text":"主席我請秘書長好 麻煩秘書長委員好秘書長好早這幾個大法官很落差想要復讀私刑還沒勇氣變歸變歸就是實質費事了"},{"start":6605.379,"end":6608.762,"text":"設一個頂端的關卡設備的關卡你要走走到擔當要捍衛司法的正義要有勇氣承擔你做到大法官你就沒有勇氣承擔啊怎麼?要叫在這裡法官承擔嗎?要叫檢察官承擔嗎?所以這個司法的正義啊在他們的手啊揮霉大陣拔擦了"},{"start":6638.08,"end":6639.621,"text":"你覺得一樣,你又聽不懂聽說你要下車啊逆行調動啊逆行調動秘書長先下車,你後面還要對著下車啊實在有違規啦春秋的違國啊這個翁孫駕啊在問控署問控署說我們這樣一記不二啊"},{"start":6666.004,"end":6676.169,"text":"那麼2月1日,這是在說什麼?控署公說,沒有喔,不是這樣,不然啦,卻做一天無四度,上天害你,逆輪殺人,還要機台發熱給他運燈!世間惡事的事情,求處理!什麼叫做匪徒私刑?你這就是實質,已經匪死了!"},{"start":6696.127,"end":6699.129,"text":"若要像你現在設的這樣 這37個都不會死若要教育的解說 我不是中港太郎的 那個政界也不會死所以這個大家發光 靠比早期集團一樣比早期集團更加嚴重 要有勇氣 要有勇氣 要有承擔 會對人不可以好處的事情"},{"start":6724.5,"end":6728.061,"text":"你就把它解說出來嘛!把私刑匯讀就好了嘛!但怎麼記不上它?沒意義啊!它叫憲法議制啊!就是說反而最嚴重的那個反刑啊!而且符合最嚴密的法律定義耶!這樣就可以判私刑對不對?是不是啊?是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!"},{"start":6756.079,"end":6773.126,"text":"有嚴重嗎?感受最嚴重的反應?故意煞零?故意煞零,就剛才說的這議制還要進行,要進一步去分析,發生什麼情況,我就去調各個情況。照你的意思,這是調供台詩人,又不叫做嚴重就對了?"},{"start":6775.049,"end":6780.932,"text":"喔 你的意思就是這樣嘛殺人還有很多種這種情形啦有時候他是防衛或者是各種情形什麼行為啦叫做最嚴重的反應"},{"start":6788.955,"end":6800.964,"text":"那大法官當然的理由來這裡有歷史歸咎 蓄意連續殺人吼 無差別殺人他要說出來啊他的理由裡面有歷史歸咎 他的理由就對了吼 如果像他這樣啦你若不是故意的 那個政界都要打死啦台師死的人 他只要出庭的時候說我不是中邪的啊我沒想要給死啦 開始要告別人他們都死"},{"start":6817.881,"end":6841.19,"text":"這樣他就不能判死刑了對不對?是不是這樣?大概不會說當事人他這樣說,我看當然就這樣猜啦我看要尊重所有這裡的政府我不是故意的啊我臨時去的啊,在這文章那裡臨時的啊我沒有要給死捏最後他死,我怎麼辦法呢?只有現在的改水,這樣整個就不用死了啦"},{"start":6847.059,"end":6856.362,"text":"啊 實在說 我說你沒用去嘛你解說到不得不去嘛 你當作這裡的大餐不菜 反腐糟糗 大家都看不見你民的憤怒嘛你傷害兩千三百五十萬人的感情嘛 死亡感情嘛 正義的感情嘛比如說 你敢拿這三十七個就對了齁 他們都犯什麼罪給我們判死刑的"},{"start":6877.083,"end":6882.445,"text":"他們裡面就包括271條、348條 共通都是有故意殺人啦!經濟性高就在3年啦!"},{"start":6882.445,"end":6883.125,"text":"因為台人怕崩潰再來羅馬啦!"},{"start":6883.125,"end":6883.225,"text":"窮仔出宅啦!"},{"start":6883.225,"end":6884.446,"text":"怕3年脫票啦!這的人這樣沒嚴重?"},{"start":6884.446,"end":6884.546,"text":"這這樣有嚴重嗎?"},{"start":6906.271,"end":6907.092,"text":"檢察總長你不用拔整層 我跟你說 你這個剛好當機檢到頭做那個人你覺得這37個裡面最嚴重 台師最多的什麼人你知道嗎"},{"start":6936.391,"end":6937.792,"text":"有一個五個啦 辦會的 憲法法庭這個辦會首四五個 喔 但我看在他判決的理由說什麼呢 他說這就要直接告議 或是第一告議 殺人 這樣你比較有辦法 這樣才可以判處極刑就對了 喔"},{"start":6963.937,"end":6972.964,"text":"若是間接故意的或是說我不是故意的臨時把你判給死的臨時把你抬給死的這樣都不能判死刑 這樣不是這樣嗎我請教你 你法律施法更多這樣你施法有多一篇的學術和理論主張這種的 就是說"},{"start":6991.431,"end":6991.992,"text":"有哪一篇論文有這樣寫嗎?"},{"start":7006.089,"end":7025.045,"text":"報告啊,這大法官的這個判決,我們當然所...小法...我們一般的法官當然都是要尊重所以待會我講幾次他們講,他們講的他們對就對了啊啊立法院委員這裡講的都講危險啊啊就要選到他們那不是他們講的我們對的我現在請教你啊,他解釋這樣啊對不對全世界有做一個發展,做一本論文說這樣如果說是3期3年啦齁"},{"start":7035.731,"end":7042.033,"text":"那麼被告我主動說 我就沒準備 我沒準備要跟他談 我不是有無的這樣被告就不會死了我相信 還是跟委員報告吧 被告當然在訴訟中他都會這樣去說沒有啦 這樣有利沒有啦 就是說因為台灣已經解釋這樣 以你的司法經驗跟你性愛這麼優秀的表現 這樣有利嗎 有合理嗎"},{"start":7063.781,"end":7068.666,"text":"你既然說施行是合憲嘛,那這樣以這種解說有沒有合理?報告,剛才說主任有他的理由啦,他考慮他們當然,討論大法院做成的過程中,都斟酌了很多的這些的相關的這些意見。這些人的判決啦齁,你像那個勞資委員講到那裡,把那個勞資,去採取那裡買菜回來。"},{"start":7087.779,"end":7095.183,"text":"講到這裏把他抱到頭上這樣 吹奄奄 腦袋這樣流出來 還把他強姦 還把他殺人 還把他搶劫這個狗尾我怎麼不會死啊 招待我高的胖子 我這個不會死啊阿去美國留學 那十年了 跟他們男朋友圍著他們老伯 不敢嫁錢啊 這樣而已啊講到這裏還要把他們老伯抱好死"},{"start":7118.191,"end":7125.356,"text":"齁 這也不會死啦 做大法官的解說 這都不會死啦 台師弟兄的尊卿相 完全沒人性最好說我不是故意的 白色老白色弟 求我們的法律給他運動我們的大法官就是說 這死刑 死刑犯 殺人犯 愛護人權 但是勒"},{"start":7146.204,"end":7149.529,"text":"這無期徒刑、有期徒刑的人不用有領款,他不用一地關的。為什麼?白色人身的自由就沒有重要。白色生命很重要,這有領款的問題。白色一個人、一世人的自由,沒有領款的問題嘛。"},{"start":7163.783,"end":7180.034,"text":"跟委員報告齁因為施行執行之後是沒有辦法挽回的齁那其他的這些自由行無期徒刑如果發現事後發現有錯還是有救的那最近最典型各位可以看到其他國家都最近齁一二三都破施行結果還有罪過的人發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮"},{"start":7191.929,"end":7208.898,"text":"所以到4天了,今天4星了,4天再跟佛父祈禱營,這樣你們就爽啦,你們就不安逸啊,台灣國家也不安逸嘛,這樣不是這樣嗎?這樣不是傷害台灣的司法正義,不是傷害人民對司法最好的期待的感情嗎?感冒?你看我咧?"},{"start":7214.966,"end":7243.192,"text":"這是社會可以去仔細去反思跟斟酌的啦剛才也有委員講到世界上面這麼多的這些國家我想我們也不會說這些國家通通都沒有司法正義啦那大法官解釋憲法出來我想大家都應該要尊重刑事訴訟法啦齁修法是不是個人的這款跟委員報告是是不是我們控議中的這款"},{"start":7244.445,"end":7248.127,"text":"發言的質詢是?這八檔一大堆都在忙什麼八檔啊他都在思念什麼金利塔的訴訟,這好像是蔣才在念的啊再來啊,要去鑑定啊結果你們給這八檔來這所有的破罐都在違憲中執行破罐他這八檔在做什麼?"},{"start":7272.247,"end":7272.267,"text":"這兩人對這37個"},{"start":7297.677,"end":7300.758,"text":"因為大法官這一次解釋很明確啦,我想應該不會那麼久"},{"start":7322.998,"end":7328.52,"text":"你把這兩天 法務部就這兩天這37天 整個你就都不會吸一口你說他們覺得說 這樣他可以去理解他要去執行嗎我告訴你 這個人很聰明 他知道他如果沒做他會死 所以他們都很清楚為什麼不能執行"},{"start":7346.688,"end":7355.25,"text":"他如果知道說就要去再審 要知道說要去提出這個非常嚴肅 啊如果沒有 忘了就要判斷他我對這次憲法法庭的判官 我是被記者很多名義給我很多壓力 說他們真失望 真失望台灣走到這個時候"},{"start":7375.575,"end":7390.58,"text":"不是不能修啊不是不能廢啊但是你還把社會講到大家感情上可以同意你還有這37個都做歹死61個人這61個人的生命比他們白色的時候還有人替這61個人說他們的靈魂受到極度的傷害結果反倒大家都要做聖靈不能夠歹死"},{"start":7404.739,"end":7412.904,"text":"這咱簽書兩公約．對人權生命的百端．要用最嚴格．來面對．我可以答應你．我也可以同情你．也可以理解你．但是當社會．這生命的百姓生命一條一條去往百姓的時候．你敢不敢出來講這個．敢不．這15個大法官敢不出來講這個．"},{"start":7436.024,"end":7437.505,"text":"重心比心嘛這37個喔 看要打死幾個 我跟你講 平時受傷法 要緊傷了主席 我跟你講 這如果沒傷了 就一人打不死 沒一人可以執行的你們現在就變鬼變怪 都用幾多機卡 你們扯得太多啦 換入白手吧啦"},{"start":7461.007,"end":7467.571,"text":"這就是民進黨復讀施行大來的效益症當然復民進黨也有人支持復讀施行不是這個時候啦不是出息出卻啦"},{"start":7491.613,"end":7494.214,"text":"回去跟大法官講一下 跟你們議長講一下拜託他要立規進行要求 整天 緊縮 在半天內 把刑事訴訟法的手法送進來本議 這樣好不好我們會盡快 我跟你說半天已經很久了 有辦法嗎"},{"start":7516.892,"end":7529.396,"text":"我們當然會盡快因為也牽涉到其他部會的是相關的這些規定我們要跟他發言秘書長告訴阿哥在閃阿哥在拖阿哥在按摩這3年份我們一定盡快我們盡量那我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":7547.243,"end":7548.732,"text":"五分鐘準時到我們就開始"},{"start":7875.811,"end":7875.991,"text":"主席"},{"start":7893.515,"end":7920.611,"text":"兩位早安大家辛苦了我想尊重憲法法庭的判決快速的啟動修法的配套不只是司法院或是法務部更是立法院我們共同的責任我也要在這裡非常清楚的再一次藉由我質詢的時間來做非常完整的一個說明並沒有廢死而是慎死"},{"start":7921.502,"end":7943.279,"text":"也就是憲法法庭的宣判並沒有廢除死刑而是未來在判決審議死刑的過程更要嚴謹更要審慎所以沒有廢死是要慎死這個立場我們要非常清楚的向社會說明下一頁"},{"start":7944.9,"end":7971.439,"text":"我非常不樂見操作憲法判決的結果作為阻擋我們憲法法庭大法官人事同意權的一個工具其實當我們看到在野黨的委員在死刑何限與否的憲判還沒有出爐前就已經進行政治的操作"},{"start":7972.199,"end":7992.959,"text":"甚至藍營的委員一開始就表達如果死刑違憲就要封殺大法官的人事同意權我想這是非常不宜的但是在920當天憲判的結果出爐死刑合憲"},{"start":7994.66,"end":8013.672,"text":"國民黨團第一時間的記者會的回應是正面的感謝大法官聽見人民的聲音但是隨後國民黨黨中央改口了改變立場了藍白立場每天不一樣黨與黨團不同調"},{"start":8018.177,"end":8045.236,"text":"所以說我們都不樂見憲法的判決法律的專業不要淪為政治操作的工具更不要因此來阻卻大法官、立法院依憲法依應行使同意權我們的憲法忠誠義務下頁我想問一下代理秘書長過去到現在自從2003年大法官同意權改由立法院來行使之後有沒有發生過嚴當"},{"start":8048.298,"end":8070.788,"text":"據審大法官人事同意權的案例有沒有發生過據審或延宕?沒有唯一一次還不是據審也沒有延宕喔是2007年阿扁執政的末期提名的大法官裡頭有4位被提名人被國民黨多數否決"},{"start":8072.284,"end":8090.546,"text":"被否決也只能尊重所以在新任接任的馬英九總統任內重新補題國會重新審查行使同意權大法官憲法法庭可以如常運作沒有癱瘓"},{"start":8091.847,"end":8110.442,"text":"所以從過去到現在沒有任何一次大法官人事同意權發生過國會聚審然後延宕然後沒有辦法履行大法官的職責癱瘓了憲法法庭Never Never Never我們希望不要發生"},{"start":8111.789,"end":8135.893,"text":"更不應當因為一些政治事件或者是對於某一個憲判不接受不同意然後就來背個人事同意權我想這是我們共同的立場我有看到民眾黨委員發函要求大法官要填他們所謂的回填這些意見徵詢表但是呢"},{"start":8140.531,"end":8164.625,"text":"這當中的意見徵詢如果是正向的溝通對話理解彼此的理念這沒有問題但是如果涉及提問的內容攸關現在事件中的違憲審查條文我想這就大大不妥了所以我看到我們幾位大法官被提名的人有提出一個共同的說明也就是"},{"start":8166.467,"end":8184.762,"text":"為方便也為利於立法院行使統一權相關的簡歷自傳著作財務狀況各項資料依法皆已提交立法院來說明被提名人的個人學識專長從事法律相關的歷練參與釋憲以及憲法訴訟的相關經驗"},{"start":8190.306,"end":8203.716,"text":"當然包括對於憲法秩序人權保障的價值理念都已經完備的提供國會也已經公開上網了所以我個人是支持我們大法官的人事同意權一"},{"start":8205.802,"end":8221.391,"text":"現有的法律的授權依程序來行使．如果個別政黨去行使了所謂的意見徵詢．但是提問的內容已經僭越了憲判審議中．"},{"start":8222.312,"end":8223.793,"text":"回到今天主題"},{"start":8249.039,"end":8277.375,"text":"死刑何限但是要限縮使用就是我說的沒有廢死但是要慎死所以說我們接軌了國際的公約兩公約是馬英九前總統簽署的我們也落實了憲法保障人民生命權的重要的精神大法官做出這樣一個憲判的結果我們予以尊重但是下一頁國會的工作是什麼"},{"start":8278.456,"end":8293.743,"text":"法務部的工作是什麼?司法院的挑戰是什麼?刑法、刑訴法、法院組織法、監獄刑刑法的配套都要趕快提出是不是我們已經組成了一個應變小組來進行所有修法的工作?部長跟委員報告我們有成立一個應變的一個小組那我們也根據這些憲判例子我們就刑法跟監獄刑刑法我們已經研擬那個草案條文了"},{"start":8308.156,"end":8324.75,"text":"剛剛有委員說他打賭了你們一定搶在最後兩年壓線才提出意思是能拖就拖能言就言會這樣嗎你們應當即刻的現在法務部相關的法律條文有應變小組也應當準備的差不多吧"},{"start":8329.877,"end":8353.744,"text":"所以法務部的條文基本上大致ready了動作很快但是後續送行政院之後有政委行政院院會還要會嫌司法院如果我在這裡預測時程加快加速的話這個會期或是下個會期應當立法院就可以來行使相關修法配套的工作吧"},{"start":8355.097,"end":8356.819,"text":"我個人對於尊重憲判的結果我的三大主張"},{"start":8382.501,"end":8406.17,"text":"第一個我們依舊要避免冤獄的產生第二我們要全面的建制完備制度來防堵犯罪人逃避刑責第三我們要即刻來推動無期徒刑假釋制度層級化我在你們的報告當中看到這是你們已經在進行研議的工作下一頁"},{"start":8407.23,"end":8424.585,"text":"我還是要提一提喔37名的死刑就案啊社會有一種風氣或一種以而傳而的擔心這個憲判之後後續的處置他們可能重新審議非常上述或者如何如何可能被放了有可能嗎部長"},{"start":8428.269,"end":8455.09,"text":"我們非常關注這個問題齁那這個死刑犯會不會放出去因為這牽扯到還是一些的法律上的一個一個的我們在我們認為現在在收容中就是不能夠折抵刑期据或保安處分另外其實我沒反對是進入假釋的門檻那個期間所以我們這部分我們是是有修法在監禁期間我們要修法來來做這樣的一個一個一個"},{"start":8457.412,"end":8461.953,"text":"所以絕對不會有現在就在擔心或者是謠傳37名死刑救案有兩案可以提非常上訴有三案也因為他審判期間的精神障礙心智缺陷也可以非常上訴其他32案一併都要審酌提起非常上訴但是無論如何都不會有現在就被釋放的這種狀況發生嗎"},{"start":8487.031,"end":8504.825,"text":"在那個有提起回廠上訴在確定判決還沒有撤銷以前都是屬於縮容的狀態是的所以大家不用擔心因為我時間到了我後面有一些修法的部分沒有辦法來論述但無論如何立法院同樣有責任"},{"start":8505.546,"end":8527.92,"text":"我們要向社會清楚的來說明沒有廢死而是在法律的程序要更為嚴謹所有的修法配套請司法院請法務部包括我們自我要求立法院越快越好希望這個會期可以來審查或是下個會期來全力推進完備配套謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員欸 部長剛剛委員問東尼達西欸"},{"start":8534.804,"end":8543.359,"text":"他問東你打西,他問說會不會放出來你跟他扯說收容這個不紀錄,你們到底在講什麼?你不能問東打西啊,你這是怎樣?"},{"start":8546.032,"end":8546.752,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8566.698,"end":8567.339,"text":"小強委員在等了啦 謝謝主席"},{"start":8586.015,"end":8606.686,"text":"司法院秘書長不能藐視我們的立法委員啦好不好麻煩你要對問題去回答他剛問你說是不是三七個有被放出來的可能然後你跟他在答說收容記不記錄刑期這個我們雖然都姓吳齁但是那個好沒關係我跟你講不然我等一下我就問你這個對啦您等一下可以繼續問嘛謝謝主席接下來我們請羅委員"},{"start":8619.11,"end":8645.075,"text":"有請司法院代理秘書長還有曾部長建立民意就是違憲大法官做出實質廢死的憲法判決就是違憲我在這邊要做出三點宣示"},{"start":8646.206,"end":8671.649,"text":"第一個 我不會配合 踐踏八成反廢死民意踐踏法官審判權踐踏立法權的大法官的實質廢死憲法判決我不會配合他們的要求修法我不會做大法官實質廢死的幫兇這是我第一個聲明"},{"start":8672.95,"end":8698.887,"text":"第二聲明我也呼籲所有的立法委員勇敢站出來捍衛民意捍衛憲法尊嚴捍衛法院審判權捍衛立法權拒絕當大法官實質廢死的幫兇拒絕配合大法官做實質廢死的修法第三點我也呼籲全台灣的民眾眼睛睜大看著"},{"start":8699.847,"end":8720.527,"text":"哪一個立法委員要配合大法官實質廢死進行修法他就是今天殺害所有無辜善良百姓然後傷害我們被害者家屬這些兇手的同路人這是我要做的三點宣示我反對廢除實刑"},{"start":8724.161,"end":8748.762,"text":"我在我的立法委員選舉當中我也把反對廢除死刑列為我的政見而我的對手今天是把要支持廢除死刑當作他的政見在大安區我贏了所以我身上肩負反對廢死的名義我必須站在這邊為反對廢除死刑來發聲我雖然反對廢除死刑"},{"start":8753.393,"end":8772.693,"text":"但是如果台灣人民透過民主程序透過公民投票透過國會立法決定要廢除實行我尊重我反對但我尊重但我絕對沒有辦法接受今天大法官為了迎合民進黨的廢死黨綱"},{"start":8776.991,"end":8802.365,"text":"開巧門見他名義然後呢用所謂的濫用大法官的視線來去做實質廢死的一個宣判我沒有辦法接受所以接下來我就要問問剛剛我們的中線主席來問今天我們的部長我來問部長你沒有回答的問題我幫吳思堯追問"},{"start":8805.083,"end":8824.498,"text":"你剛剛說什麼啊你剛剛說什麼啊你剛剛說他問你喔那37個人會不會放出來你怎麼回答你給我打什麼看守不記錄期間沒有我問得更精確一點好不好請問最高檢提出非常上訴如果法院撤銷死刑的確定判決的時候人會不會放出來夠具體了吧不要再迴避了吧跟委員報告齁"},{"start":8833.035,"end":8860.395,"text":"那個最高法院在就撤銷那個原確定死刑的判決你不用重塑我的問題啦人會不會放出來我就問你到現在都不願意回答這個會不會放這個是我們建立我們會建立要法官要做一個羈押你建議他要羈押就代表不會放啦你好偉大我問你下一個問題請問你賴清德的晚餐吃什麼你能不能決定"},{"start":8862.315,"end":8888.808,"text":"你能不能決定耐心的吃什麼晚餐?你能不能決定?你能決定嗎?部長?這個我沒辦法決定當然不能決定啦請問要不要羈押誰決定啊?答對了!就我要問旁邊啦他能保證不羈押嗎?秘書長、代理秘書長我只問你他能保證不羈押嗎?"},{"start":8891.823,"end":8914.91,"text":"他能保證不羈押嗎 第三度問你 不要再躲了 他不能保證 對不對答對了嘛 那剛吳少問那麼多 害我們主席這麼生氣 就是你迴避問題阿我直接跟你講 37個最高然後非常上訴 如果撤銷死刑的判決 非常非常可能 37個就放出來了"},{"start":8916.499,"end":8939.652,"text":"我跟你講就是有可能你能報告你秘書長都不能約束法院判決不是嗎?你還建議羈押勒你直接建議戴希德吃什麼晚餐好了所以我要跟各位講這事情嚴重到什麼程度為什麼我們沒有辦法接受到現在民進黨跟我們講說沒有實質廢食阿我告訴你就是實質廢食我們等著看來我跟你講"},{"start":8940.95,"end":8946.894,"text":"我告訴你會不會改成所謂的這個撤銷死刑的確定判決會不會你們要回答啦對不對部長非常上述這種法院會不會撤銷死刑判決啊 確定判決啊這個是屬於個案的非常好你們要保證啊我告訴你就是會撤銷啦你要不要試試看有很多被撤銷我告訴你現在就一個被撤銷的來我問你喔"},{"start":8970.663,"end":8977.205,"text":"我們有一位曾經奪獅奪獎的女教師她被一個流性嫌犯10年前殺害你知道吧部長用什麼東西兇器用鐵鎚劫財性侵咬掉她的身體用鐵鎚殘忍的擊殺她"},{"start":8992.25,"end":9016.978,"text":"我想請問你 你知道他的確定的死刑的他的死刑判決被確定撤銷了吧現在已經所謂的免判死確定了 對不對我檢察官都是自始自終就是求出死刑 這個立場我沒有在怪你檢察官 我要告訴你是什麼不用跳問 我要讓秘書長 我覺得秘書長回答比較誠懇一點所以就看媒體上報道 確實是"},{"start":9017.881,"end":9038.555,"text":"我告訴你 最高法院直接告訴我啊最高法院直接跟大家講為什麼多次宣判死刑的這個凶嫌 最後被免死確判因為最高法院跟我們講 根市審判決嚴格秉持憲法法庭死刑判決意旨"},{"start":9040.619,"end":9068.638,"text":"認為今天這叫偶發性犯罪不是預謀犯罪認為不是犯罪最嚴重的情節之罪他就是根據大法官憲法判決宣布他免死的這37個都會一樣我告訴你你等著看吧連還沒有開始的司法判決已經受影響了你要跟我講說建議大法官不要羈押有用嗎"},{"start":9070.287,"end":9072.387,"text":"部長!有用嗎?有用嗎?沒有用啦!沒有用啦!我想問一下部長,問問我們的秘書長不是預謀犯案啊!如果有一個拿著機關槍在路上掃射"},{"start":9099.119,"end":9099.299,"text":"這個是隨機殺人"},{"start":9126.601,"end":9143.489,"text":"他也不是預謀故意殺啊那照這個邏輯今天隨機殺人就不嚴重啊所以大法官鼓勵大家沒有關係我今天齁我只要沒有特定想殺誰我到街上齁拿著大關刀狂砍都沒事啊我不知道會不會這樣判但是今天"},{"start":9150.285,"end":9173.975,"text":"這位獅奪獎的女老師一生作譽英才善善良良本本分分的做人得到社會的肯定拿到了獅奪獎她冤不冤阿兩位她冤不冤阿她有多冤阿犯罪不是罪情節的嚴重之罪劫財嚴不嚴重性侵嚴不嚴重"},{"start":9178.052,"end":9180.334,"text":"咬掉他身體的部位嚴不嚴重?虐殺他嚴不嚴重?跟我講不嚴重跟我講可教化結束了所以今天為什麼在這邊我們非常沉痛民進黨一直在講大法官沒有廢死啊前面吳世良在講啊沒有實質廢死啊"},{"start":9208.001,"end":9232.736,"text":"我就請部長 剛剛卓榮泰在我總質詢不敢保證 不知道部長能不能保證 什麼叫實質廢死當然一個死刑犯都沒被執行算不算實質廢死 一個都不被執行 這標準夠簡單了吧請問秘書長 賴理秘書長到最後一個死刑犯都沒被執行 就叫實質廢死我告訴你 我直接跟各位再度保證一次 民進黨歡迎打我的臉"},{"start":9234.418,"end":9240.94,"text":"賴清德在2028年5月19號卸任之前不會執行任何死刑啊打我臉啊 歡迎啊 期待啊拜託啊 懇求啊 跪求啊賴清德 法務部打我的臉啊你不要講還沒有被定讞的判決 現在被判決很難啊連這個斯多獎女士"},{"start":9264.721,"end":9291.767,"text":"都直接到最高法院直接講就是因為大法官他直接說這最高法院很誠實因為大法官憲法判決所以我們更試審我們秉持大法官憲法判決意旨免死我告訴你接下來非常少數到最高法院去到哪個法院去一樣我們秉持大法官廢除死刑實質廢死的判決意旨全部改判免死"},{"start":9293.325,"end":9313.778,"text":"然後呢接下來我們的部長 哎呀拜託法院把他們羈押好不好然後法院要不要羈押 看法院高興啊 人就放出來不要再騙了 不要再轉移焦點了 不要再迴避問題了為什麼跟主席這麼生氣 待會他一定要問這一題 主席是檢察官"},{"start":9317.745,"end":9341.198,"text":"他非常知道今天檢察官跟法院的前者的分析是什麼所以你的保證一點用都沒有你沒有辦法保證他被羈押這超出你的能力連秘書長都不能保證這超出他的能力實質廢死的現狀就已經發生了所以我在這邊我再次宣示"},{"start":9342.95,"end":9350.192,"text":"我托付著我今天選我的名義 我不會在立法院配合大法官做實質廢死的修法 謝謝好 謝謝 那請回下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":9372.297,"end":9373.178,"text":"有請黃秘書長還有部長"},{"start":9384.185,"end":9403.951,"text":"布長、秘書長您好這次大法官做成了死刑有條件和憲的憲法判決那其實也引起了非常多的討論那麼固然大法官沒有宣告死刑為違憲這個說實在話還出乎我的意料之外我想當天在整個憲法法庭辯論上面"},{"start":9405.271,"end":9421.442,"text":"以及看到所有的法庭之友的辯論書：法庭之友的意見書當然除了我代表中國國民黨所提出來的那份法庭之友意見書是贊成死刑核限還有法務部的立場也是贊成死刑核限之外全場是一面倒都認為死刑是違憲的"},{"start":9422.683,"end":9448.317,"text":"那麼做出了這個死刑有條件合憲的憲法判決這個對於這個法學界來看這件事情當然會認為他就是實際上看起來是死刑是合憲但是設下了重重的關卡那其實判決的效果已經達成了實質的廢死這個部分來說的話也是讓大家對於大法官在判決書裡面所談的"},{"start":9450.658,"end":9468.454,"text":"要設置最嚴密最高程度的正當程序保障的這些條件呢那麼感到疑惑而且也認為說這些大法官所談的條件難道司法院之前沒有處理過嗎沒有討論過嗎我想請問秘書長我們知道其實司法院"},{"start":9475.131,"end":9487.549,"text":"他是這個刑事訴訟法的主管機關那過去基本上也主導刑事訴訟法的修法那請問你們到底修了些什麼你們有針對大法官之前所談的這些條件曾經有提出過討論嗎"},{"start":9489.571,"end":9511.118,"text":"因為之前並還沒有這個憲判但是之前有那個兩公約的兩公約的這個這個像公正公約的這個要求像那個要情節最嚴重的這個犯罪在兩公約裡面就有那那個程序其實在最高法院本身最高法院本身從101年開始其實他們本身就針對了"},{"start":9512.939,"end":9534.793,"text":"施行案件的這個上訴那他已經要求說要開必要的這個顏值辯論好 了解所以也就是說其實司法院之前有曾經討論過那麼請問部長還有秘書長你們對於這次大法官所設置這些條件造成實務上面的未來在實際的運作上面會不會有治安難行之處譬如說何怡婷的一致決"},{"start":9541.493,"end":9543.813,"text":"因為大法官的要求是說在三審的法院都要有一制決請問之前的評議部都還保留著嗎?"},{"start":9571.491,"end":9576.115,"text":"我們現在正在查因為我們的評議部依照那個檔案管理是有目前的規定是保留10年所以代表可能之前的都已經銷毀了好沒關係我們先要看一下這個剛剛其實秘書長有講的司法院其實曾經主導過這個一直都在主導刑事訴訟法的這個修法那麼本席也是高度的質疑"},{"start":9594.693,"end":9601.798,"text":"你們在101年的時候當時司法週刊上面就已經有講就是你們曾經有修這個刑事訴訟法第388條將強制辯護延伸到第三審落實被告的辯護依賴權那麼接下來在110年最近這前三年的時候也曾經有在討論要持續的修刑事訴訟法要經濟人權保障將羈押中的被告納入強制辯護範圍請問你們過去都有討論可是為什麼都沒有提出修法"},{"start":9625.734,"end":9643.174,"text":"跟委員報告因為實際上面當然我們正在在是不是因為食物界反彈沒有沒有因為食物上面就是這樣在做的都有這樣在做所以根本沒有修法的必要對那只是說大法官這一次認為說食物上這個做法應該要再進一步的這個明文那以前最高法院就是這樣一直在"},{"start":9643.975,"end":9667.025,"text":"所以就是很多時候在做的根本不需要修法嘛那大法官為什麼那麼強制認為要修法是因為他勸你們勸不動所以呢乾脆直接做了一個憲法法院的判決直接在裡面寫清楚然後要求你們要修法是不是如此我高度的懷疑那接下來我想要講的就是你們在這次的報告裡面你們提出來未來要修法的只有四種死刑罪名但是還有其他的罪啊"},{"start":9668.396,"end":9679.046,"text":"在我們特別法還有在這個刑法裡面其實光是涉及到就是光是與這個罪重本刑是死刑的條文就有30幾條就有30幾種條文吧涉及88種的死刑罪名"},{"start":9685.157,"end":9691.86,"text":"委員報告,因為大法官只能針對釋憲的標的你講得很好,大法官只能針對釋憲的標的可是這次大法官的裁判理由裡面,基本上他是針對釋憲的標的嗎?釋憲標的裡面有說要強化程序保障嗎?"},{"start":9708.752,"end":9712.822,"text":"沒有吧,我們法學界都說這次大法官做的憲法裁判是數位裁判啊他已經依託了這個人民所提出來的釋憲的理由"},{"start":9719.615,"end":9734.849,"text":"本席認為這是只能針對這四種死刑罪名才需要最嚴密的正當法律程序其他的都不重要了其他的條文好像也已經有在申請釋憲另外的案子等到整個釋憲完了之後再做決定所以未來對於死刑犯還是有差別待遇的"},{"start":9740.134,"end":9742.577,"text":"部分的人他能夠享受到這個最嚴密的程序保障那其他的88種的都不需要我必須要講這是一個嚴重的問題我這次在你們的報告書裡面我看到了好那我要先下來講就是說有關於強制辯護的問題那麼在三省強制辯護的部分"},{"start":9756.656,"end":9764.424,"text":"那麼這個是大法官這次要求同時在偵查訊問的過程當中也要求要引進強制辯護制度為什麼當時刑事訴訟法的31條只說在審判中需要強制辯護而沒有講到說在偵查訊問當中就要強制辯護你們知道當時的立法理由是什麼嗎"},{"start":9779.247,"end":9781.869,"text":"現在的刑事訴訟法的31條為什麼只要在審判中才要強制辯護"},{"start":9793.444,"end":9799.789,"text":"他說這一次那個憲判的理由裡面有寫為了讓那個效率如果說有些時候會耽擱這個偵查的這個時間我要告訴我希望秘書長你回去看看當時的憲法訴訟法31條的立法理由裡面其實講得很清楚因為在整個的偵查詢問過程當中還沒有起訴起訴的條文也還不確定是不是這個最重以這個最重本性死刑來起訴"},{"start":9820.405,"end":9823.907,"text":"所以就是說如果說你在偵查詢問的過程當中就已經要引進這個強制辯護人的制度然後依照大法官的見解這個如果說當事人他自己不騙律師叫這個請法服的律師去幫忙做這個義務辯護那請問法服的這個律師的費用是誰出"},{"start":9841.802,"end":9849.751,"text":"法服的律師當然法服有法服但法服的預算是由我們司法院捐助的是 所以你們法院未來準備要增編一兩億的錢嗎"},{"start":9852.281,"end":9873.97,"text":"委員報告我們會去：法服他會去評估到底因此會增加增加多少所以你們現在有沒有做過精密的去計算在過去這一年當中有多少可能因為依職權依起訴告發等等的而涉及到最重本刑是死刑的"},{"start":9874.77,"end":9879.713,"text":"因為其實原來法服針對那個重罪的偵查中培訓本來就已經有這個計畫是 但是案件數不多但是現在因為當時是在審判嘛你現在已經進入到這個偵查詢問的過程當中本席這個有幫你們稍微算了一下齁那依照112年你們自己法務部的統計資料裡面這個顯示那麼事實上這個以這個最重本席死刑的偵查起訴案件是大概252件"},{"start":9901.787,"end":9903.429,"text":"但是呢如果說這252件的以死刑起訴的這個罪名其實那都才只是很少量我們回顧啊我們以這個傷害罪在去年大概有三萬兩千件那事實上有可能"},{"start":9917.228,"end":9921.149,"text":"是更多因為這個可能人家當時也是告發或是一職權認為說可能是有死刑的這樣一個情況可是最後這個轉回變成只有三萬兩千件所以我們是認為說有可能未來會有六千個都是在偵查詢問階段被懷疑這個死刑的嫌疑犯"},{"start":9939.674,"end":9959.809,"text":"需要有訴訟辯護人的那如果說以這個死刑的嫌疑犯他所要聘請的法服的律師作為訴訟的這個作為訴訟辯護人他的費用大概一個階段是兩萬五千塊所以你司法院你至少要編一億五千萬那為什麼要用人民的納稅錢"},{"start":9963.923,"end":9972.965,"text":"去幫這些死刑的這個嫌疑犯去幫他們付律師費用這筆錢為什麼不拿來去幫那個被告家屬還更好我要講其實大法官所做的這號憲法裁判他其實已經造成這實務界運作的一個很大的問題不僅是法官在審理的時候那麼這個我其實我有想看"},{"start":9992.319,"end":10018.83,"text":"幾位實務界出身的大法官他們都非常不能認同這次在憲法判決的主文裡面特別就這個精神障礙在救審能力在救審的時候還有執行的時候也認為以後不能判死刑這已經顛覆了整個罪責的理論了這其實引起很大的爭議同時在實務運作面、層面上面"},{"start":10020.571,"end":10049.004,"text":"請問部長這會不會來造成檢察官在偵查詢問的時候的一個困難必須等到這個律師在場的時候才能問因為偵查中本來就是要預知要不要選擇辯護人那如果要等待的時間當然要扣除那些的時間但是如果說他不請我們依照憲判的意思我們還是要問像司法檢察官都要問他說我們會通知法服來選任那這一代子"},{"start":10049.324,"end":10070.635,"text":"所以這中間的時間就會拖長了這個部分其實本席作為立法委員然後我之前也是法學教授所以我很在乎實務上運作的情況那麼我也希望你們如果真的要提出修法的話也要提出一個能夠符合實務而且能夠接受的"},{"start":10071.075,"end":10080.653,"text":"一個修法更何況我其實我是感到很很遺憾的是也是覺得很不能夠接受的就是如果說司法院"},{"start":10082.754,"end":10107.79,"text":"從101年當時就認為強制辯護制度是這麼重要為什麼你們自己都不修法然後司法院院長不是還這個主持或是幾個大法官也主持司法也主持這個刑事訴訟法的研修會議該做都沒有做然後最後透過一個憲法法院的裁判然後以止氣使的來命令大家來修法最後呢累死了一堆小法官"},{"start":10109.511,"end":10133.089,"text":"這樣的做法其實是非常不恰當的當然就是今天秘書長在這裡也是待主受過啦這個判決也不是你們做的但是你們要去承擔所有的這樣的一個民眾的不滿法學界的不滿但是無論如何如果你們要提出修法的話我也希望你們能夠提出一個符合司法"},{"start":10134.295,"end":10141.656,"text":"十五屆還有符合民眾期待的一個相關修法好謝謝好謝謝委員好請回那下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席我們有請鄭部長好麻煩部長"},{"start":10164.196,"end":10164.869,"text":"好 部長無案"},{"start":10166.957,"end":10195.531,"text":"委員好部長我們今天就這個113年憲判字第8號判決的內容那對於死刑和憲刑的這個解釋來檢討如何完備程序那和相關的這個法令的修正那符合我們憲法法庭判決的這個意旨死刑的這個議題長年來都是有正反雙方的一個論辯但它從來都不是二元的一個是非題"},{"start":10196.471,"end":10225.551,"text":"而是對於維護社會秩序和人權保障之間那更加多面向的思考和評估也看到我們這次憲判的重點並非在死刑存廢與否而是要讓審判的程序更加的嚴謹大法官也考慮到我們歷史社會發展的一個脈絡以及多數人民的法感情對於最大惡極的犯人就應該"},{"start":10226.892,"end":10241.264,"text":"可以相應的罪責受到最嚴厲的制裁以發揮刑法嚇阻犯罪的功能來維護我們社會的公義被害人我們也可以為他來伸張正義"},{"start":10242.285,"end":10257.12,"text":"因此未來在配套的修法上我們也必須多考慮到被害者的心情及立場司法體系也應該要有積極的作為來回應民意以鞏固我們民眾對於司法的信任"},{"start":10258.513,"end":10275.207,"text":"那我們看到這個憲判對於判處死刑的要件適用於個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重且這個刑事的程序符合憲法最嚴密的正當法律程序的要求的情形"},{"start":10275.988,"end":10293.75,"text":"若遇到無法判死刑的案件則無期徒刑是否得以替代嚴懲重大犯罪所以我想就有關於終身監禁落實無期徒刑的部分來和部長做一個討論"},{"start":10295.672,"end":10311.922,"text":"那我們看到朝野各黨對於終身監禁不得假釋或是提高假釋的門檻都有提出類似的這個修法方向甚至已經有要求提出這個修法的版本來討論我們也了解到法務部這邊"},{"start":10313.002,"end":10334.298,"text":"在研議定定無期徒刑假釋門檻的這個層級化的規範那所以我想請教部長對於這個假釋門檻如何區分這個層級是否我們已經有了大致的一個構想那法務部的這個特殊無期徒刑是否就包含不得假釋的這個終身監禁"},{"start":10336.84,"end":10362.109,"text":"謝謝委員那這個因應那個憲判字第8號的一個判決那我們法務部已經嚴理修正刑法77條我們在第二項有徵定我們這個草案就是故意殺人或殺人未遂竟判處無期徒刑或逾10年有期徒刑不得假釋我們認為那個殺人跟殺人未遂這個是屬於社會最不容忍的一個嚴重的一個犯罪當然那所以我們認為這個是要排除那個"},{"start":10365.27,"end":10365.29,"text":"．述"},{"start":10387.319,"end":10401.927,"text":"倘若這個各黨團都提出了這個相關的修正版本那我們也希望說法務部的版本能夠一起來審查而對於這個無期徒刑假釋的這個配套其實也並非在這一次這個憲判"},{"start":10403.368,"end":10420.3,"text":"之後才開始討論所以希望我們法務部盡可能縮短這個研議的時間盡快把這個相關的修正的內容提出來那我想再請教部長就是說我們預計要多久的時間能夠將這個修法的版本送到國會來進行審查"},{"start":10422.141,"end":10446.859,"text":"這部分因為相關的那個修正我們會盡快提到行政院來有審查然後還要在會前那個司法院那我們希望司法院能夠多支持那我想我們就會很快速的來提出跟立法院來提出這個法案有沒有一個最短的時間其實我們是希望這個會期看看有沒有辦法我們努力看看"},{"start":10447.579,"end":10453.822,"text":"對於修法的方向不論是要延長監禁或是採取終身監禁不得假釋重點都是要提高我們犯罪者實質的這個服刑時間以達到嚇阻犯罪的效果但是"},{"start":10475.27,"end":10493.486,"text":"想在這個預證實務上可能會遇到的問題也應該一併納入這個討論所以我想若提高這個假設的門檻以我國當前這個監獄超收的情況是否有需要再增建這個監所"},{"start":10495.43,"end":10507.155,"text":"這個如果有必要的話有需要的話我們會朝這邊去努力那現在目前監獄還是都有在增擴建那詳細的是不是我可以請那個教政署署長來待會回答"},{"start":10509.944,"end":10527.319,"text":"報告委員目前確實受容人數有微乎上升的趨勢那原則上以北部地區的超額受容比較嚴重尤其臺北建議、臺北看守所還有桃園建議跟宜蘭建議但是我們本署"},{"start":10528.439,"end":10546.064,"text":"會第一先做機動調整宜間第二就是由北部移往南部為沿著另外我們部長剛剛有提到目前在北部地區八德外宜間大概在今年年底可以完成增加大概一千四百人"},{"start":10546.784,"end":10566.981,"text":"那在我們中部地區的彰化看守所預定明年年底可以完成大概可以增加收容人數1200人所以將來北部地區跟中部地區的超額收容可以得到緩解以上目前來看是不服使用就對了"},{"start":10567.819,"end":10583.79,"text":"目前我們會用機動調整一件隨時來應驗那由此可見我們少子化的情況然後這個犯罪的行為人越來越多才會導致這個監所這個不服使用應該是這樣子吧 署長"},{"start":10584.09,"end":10608.41,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們現在比較注重收容人的人權所以以前是0.7坪現在我們一人一床變成是一人一坪所以實際上我們的在100年成立的時候我們的收容人是6萬6目前大概是5萬8而已但是因為一人一坪的關係我們會壓縮到空間使用空間的問題是是是會壓縮到"},{"start":10610.636,"end":10621.844,"text":"反之我想再請教部長就是說如果可能讓其他的重刑犯獲得提前假釋的機會反而會不會影響到這個社會的治安"},{"start":10623.328,"end":10649.501,"text":"我想在那個假釋的話要那個從那個要何時來審核寬延並濟我們認為有教化成功當然我們就合乎假釋的門檻我們盡量就就給他假釋出獄那如果說那個假釋的的條件像那個整個教化成果不好那當然我們還要持續的我們就會重研審核尤其是重罪的重罪這一部分那當這個"},{"start":10651.167,"end":10668.814,"text":"犯罪犯罪者然後他的服刑時間越長那我們監獄可能就僅有發揮這個懲罰而已並沒有失去就完全就失去這個教化的功能可能也會和我們當前預證的這個政策和矯正的目標"},{"start":10669.394,"end":10671.676,"text":"我想這個矯正的執行面是不是我請那個矯正署長來代表"},{"start":10694.793,"end":10722.755,"text":"報告委員 我們會加強老人次裝科的門診我們現在跟監所跟鄰近的醫療院所都合作包括老人門診那我們也有包括老年受刑人要多照顧的政策所以在去年年底我們有到日本去觀察他們的主義我們也會作為所謂的指引手冊我們都做出來了將來我們會對這個部分特別留意"},{"start":10723.977,"end":10746.839,"text":"對於這個比較老年的這個受刑人會特別留意那我想在精進相關的這個法令的這個同時預證系統的改革也應該要一併來檢討那以提高我們自由行的長度來作為這個嚴厲刑法是社會較有共識的一個修法方向"},{"start":10747.66,"end":10765.953,"text":"那但在這個預證資源長期的匱乏情況之下以及這介護人力的不足也是我們後端急需要改進的一個相關配套那在這個部分我想未來如果有機會的時候再和部長來做一個強加討論是不是部長要簡單再說明一下"},{"start":10768.435,"end":10779.685,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指導,我想這個最重要的這些殺人的這些的,我想我們即使沒有判死刑,我們判無期徒刑,我想我們會從,以目前我們會從嚴來審核,從嚴審核,我想這也是"},{"start":10783.809,"end":10783.849,"text":"好,謝謝好,謝謝"},{"start":10812.025,"end":10812.245,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":10839.15,"end":10867.349,"text":"最近大反觀做出來的實質視線已經讓民眾非常的憤慨按照這樣的發展下去以後我們在矯正署應該成立一個長照中心反正終身監禁未來不管這個老年的照顧有失智的或者有這個老年疾病的應該成立一個長照中心然後繼續由我們納稅人來付款這到底是一個什麼樣的社會"},{"start":10869.983,"end":10889.183,"text":"上個星期上個星期大家都知道施奪獎的女屍她被姦殺案那個整個的過程極為殘忍這個案子曾經五度被判死但是一直不停的發回這個最高法院來來回回的更審"},{"start":10890.376,"end":10917.381,"text":"最後因為大法官的釋憲結果．實質廢死的釋憲結果．使得這一個人身共憤最大惡極的罪行．最後得到了一張免死金牌．這個兩天在民眾裡面．激起了非常非常大的一個反感憤慨．覺得我們的司法正義在哪裡．我們司法與惡的距離竟然如此之近．"},{"start":10920.825,"end":10945.462,"text":"所以這樣的一個狀況我們未來不管是司法院也好各級的陳審法官以及我們法務部要如何因應比如說法務部要修法我剛才就講嘛最後修法結果就是在監獄裡面成立長照中心繼續在浪費納稅人的錢然後繼續沒有辦法讓我們的受害者跟受害家族得到最後的社會正義"},{"start":10948.53,"end":10968.724,"text":"有一個事情非常重要接下來看一下這個最近大家比較沒有討論事實上在很多的這些殺人案件裡面都以精神疾病來逃死逃避被判死結果呢現在呢整個大法官視線的結果把它擴大"},{"start":10972.955,"end":11001.444,"text":"除了你犯罪時候你有沒有精神疾病我們現在本來就是你在犯罪的時候你有精神疾病我相信這個法務部部長也當過檢察官你們在這個過程裡面應該要去鑑定他有沒有精神疾病其實就有他的困難度了你犯罪時候即便你犯罪時候沒有精神疾病但是你在審判的時間你犯罪時候是正常人喔"},{"start":11002.974,"end":11029.647,"text":"審判期間 這個官司拖得很長如果在審判期間你有心智缺陷或者有精神障礙也可以逃死這就是大法官做出來的解釋等到審判完你犯罪時候沒有精神疾病你審判的時候也沒有精神疾病但是告訴你你要被判死刑了那個時候你有精神疾病"},{"start":11030.888,"end":11042.031,"text":"最後也不能執行死刑所以一路上把精神疾病精神障礙作為最後通通可以逃避死刑所以這不叫做實質廢死什麼叫做實質廢死呢還有人說這不是"},{"start":11050.373,"end":11067.661,"text":"精神疾病其實在過去像殺警案、鐵路殺警案裡面大家討論就很多然後我們就質疑社會大眾質疑可以用精神疾病然後就可以逃脫嗎現在更扯欸你犯罪的時候"},{"start":11068.72,"end":11071.983,"text":"在立法院的來下一頁我們立法院預算中心有提到"},{"start":11098.556,"end":11127.428,"text":"司法精神醫學專科的醫師啊 事實上非常的少我有注意到衛福部啊 我時間那個什麼 剪短一點衛福部的報告裡面 特別有提到說從109年開始辦理這些專科醫師偵審作業有103名的醫師可是你知道嗎 只有第一年可能因為第一次來舉辦 第一年有60名接下來每一年逐年減少啊"},{"start":11128.408,"end":11154.877,"text":"到了112年最後一年只有7名了從第一名的60名到最後只有經過3年只有7名了所以我們會面臨一個司法精神的這些專科醫師也明顯減少更不要說在這個過程裡面你要找一家醫院兩家醫院一個醫生兩個醫生這通通都有很多的爭議所以這怎麼辦呢"},{"start":11158.55,"end":11184.205,"text":"未來我們檢調警察花了一大堆的力氣來偵破辦案檢方求刑到了法院因為大法官的釋憲反正我們繼續在浪費我們的納稅人的錢嘛浪費我們的納稅的資源社會資源來來回回整反正就是不會判死也不會執行死刑"},{"start":11187.865,"end":11211.806,"text":"這叫做什麼社會正義呢所以請教一下司法院這個部分我給你一點時間或者是請你書面答覆我這個是我們民眾非常非常關心的什麼呀你在犯案的時候精神極為正常之下你犯下這些罪行惡大的"},{"start":11213.131,"end":11213.311,"text":"簡短回答一下"},{"start":11229.079,"end":11249.771,"text":"那將來這個大法官的這個要求那我們衛福部的報告裡面有提到說將來這個司法精神醫學我們會跟法務部跟那個衛福部看怎麼樣去去這個精進這一部分那我們自己也有一些想法有一些想法包含說那個將來的這些"},{"start":11251.832,"end":11256.735,"text":"麻煩喔,可不可以請法務部跟我們司法院能夠提一個書面的,你們初步要怎麼講,你們應該馬上都會面臨到好不好好不好,給我一個書面的,你們要怎麼做,謝謝"},{"start":11282.188,"end":11282.428,"text":"吳宗憲委員質詢"},{"start":11309.506,"end":11311.487,"text":"邀請司法院秘書長和法務部長"},{"start":11329.625,"end":11352.695,"text":"假官、法官、那也有我以前前方的指導老師都在這邊所以我等一下如果任何說錯的地方都可以都可以來現場就說我講錯了那我想說我到立法院這邊我常常覺得一個很奇怪的事情就是說部長我已經不是一次跟部長說真的不要配合政客在那邊回答話所以"},{"start":11356.099,"end":11378.966,"text":"這邊不能說不懂法律的人然後來這裡假裝自己是法律專家然後懂法律的人來這邊又假裝自己不懂法律那你面對這些政客在那邊胡說八道的時候為什麼要配合他演出呢我們應該是要告訴國人真正的法律規定是什麼什麼我們該告訴人民說大家要煩惱要擔心的那什麼"},{"start":11380.276,"end":11380.636,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11403.11,"end":11420.12,"text":"在上一次法律科技對於吳大委員每次在那邊對這法律齁不懂那邊胡說八道亂帶風向然後部長你剛也是跟著他這樣講所以我剛才會說那個部長沒有回答到立委的問題嘛那待會我會跟你說怎麼樣我想說"},{"start":11422.285,"end":11439.662,"text":"今天我們一個人在就審的期間包括偵查的期間你能夠押他一定是因為有羈押或者是有預防性羈押的必要性嘛兩位是不是這樣子那羈押跟預防性羈押他都有他的要件"},{"start":11440.302,"end":11462.479,"text":"那羈押101 行刑訴訟法101條羈押就是那幾個原因嘛那預防性羈押也就是說他有再犯的可能性嘛但是在許多案件裡面法官認為說被告沒有需要判死刑都是因為他有教化的可能性他有悔改那自然就是不會認定說這有反覆實施之餘嘛所以我才會說今天你要押一個被告"},{"start":11463.947,"end":11483.262,"text":"你必須把他關著不讓他出去你要有法院的羈押才定嘛那如果我們今天一個人被判死刑到執行槍決之前這個叫做收容這不叫做羈押所以羈押依照目前的法制是可以折抵刑期但是收容應該是沒有"},{"start":11484.463,"end":11511.936,"text":"上禮拜部長也有說你不認同這可以折抵刑期那我也蠻認同部長的這個想法雖然這是我們第一次遇到這個狀況所以今天我們擔心的是當這個被告他被非常上訴後來撤銷死刑判決之後回歸到普通法院去審理這時候能夠限制他自由的方法就是一種就是法官裁定羈押"},{"start":11513.097,"end":11513.337,"text":"我可以說明嗎?"},{"start":11537.856,"end":11558.838,"text":"我想我們現在碰到的目前是即將可能提起非常上訴的時候那現在大家問提起非常上訴是不是會放人那當然委員已經很清楚幫我幫我已經分析了我上次在院會有講過了這個目前還在擠壓還在收容中那在法院其實最高法院在"},{"start":11559.378,"end":11588.27,"text":"在整個一個審理在確定判決還沒有撤銷之前還是一個收容的狀態大概委員有提到如果萬一撤銷了怎麼辦那撤銷那我要分門分門如果說自為判決的話他就判決確定我們就直接當場就執行了嘛直接就收容改成受限生我們就直接就對那另外另外有跟委員再報告那如果他撤銷發回到高院的時候那當然我沒建議我們我們都當檢察我們知道計價權是屬於法院嘛"},{"start":11589.23,"end":11605.587,"text":"那我也沒辦法保證說法院一定會押但是以現實我認為法院會押但是我那這單位如果法院不押我們怎麼處理我們就只能抗告或建立羈押或再建立羈押的室友我們再建立法院羈押那你剛剛就應該這樣回答吳校委員"},{"start":11606.448,"end":11631.038,"text":"那吳教員他在帶風向就告訴人民說這些人不會出來但是我就在這邊告訴你依照法律的規定我就說現場很多法官、檢察官的學長也有我檢方的指導老師我如果講錯隨時歡迎反駁我這個回到法院審理的時候法官第一個法官有可能不押這是我們要面臨的第一個風險第二個風險是即使回到高院他最長的羈押時間也只有12"},{"start":11631.999,"end":11637.606,"text":"12個月那如果超過12個月沒有辦法繼續羈押了呢法官又還沒有下判決那怎麼辦"},{"start":11639.168,"end":11667.967,"text":"這也是第二個問題啊所以你跟政治人物說政客說人不會放出去那這不在騙全國人民啊我現在我在講理解我在理解的是在講目前的狀況收容中是不可能放出去那如果就撤銷撤銷花回高院的話當然委員擔心這個問題我不敢保證說沒有沒有對那是不是就要麻煩部長以及秘書長要正視這個問題這些人有可能在不久的將來會被放出來"},{"start":11669.308,"end":11687.619,"text":"法律不是說可能不會啦應該不會啦就可以那萬一法官放出來呢萬一法官因為積壓的要件就那幾個嘛滅政逃亡對或者是預防性積壓嘛滅政或逃亡或者是重罪積壓但是有滅政或逃亡之餘"},{"start":11688.599,"end":11709.406,"text":"這三個狀況請問一下一個20幾年前的殺人罪他有什麼滅證或篡證之餘第二個逃亡那你要怎麼說他有逃亡之餘呢所以當羈押的條件都不符合的時候法官怎麼去自己自創法律去裁定羈押他這是我一直以來我上個禮拜一跟部長就教就這個問題但部長跟院長那個時候都沒有回答我"},{"start":11710.026,"end":11735.311,"text":"但我必須在這邊要幫全國人民告訴兩位這件事情這個人可能在回歸到普通法院審理的時候他沒有辦法押或者是已經超過了12個月押不了了那這時候這些人回到社會上面我們國家有什麼作為我今天是要講這個這個會造成人民的心理的不安全感那第二個我要跟部長說明的"},{"start":11737.079,"end":11764.882,"text":"部長剛跟中加兵委員回答一個東西是完全不對的你要再去跟中加兵委員說你講錯了就是說假釋可以適用新法但是部長刑法施行細則第7條之2是以行為時欸這假釋的標準是行為時欸所以他必須讓到當年假釋的條件也就有可能是15年就可以假釋了如果部長你說假釋可以用新法的話"},{"start":11766.311,"end":11781.837,"text":"可以用什麼終身不得假釋假設說可以用新法的話我跟你講現在明天監獄保證大鬧一堆無期突襲人開始鬧房了因為他本來他以為15年或25年可以假釋就現在突然我要試用新法所以部長即使你想要修"},{"start":11783.721,"end":11811.388,"text":"這個實行細則我覺得也萬萬不可因為會天下大亂但是你剛剛跟宗嘉斌委員回答說這個可以適用新法所以這是不對的這完全違法我想這是一個立法政策的一個問題立法政策的一個問題那這部分我嚴厲的結果我們是以適用新法較為妥適那沒有了那那我就跟好那你這37個死刑犯適用新法"},{"start":11812.659,"end":11839.42,"text":"要讓他們終生不得假釋那其他死刑犯呢你可以割裂適用嗎你可以說以前判的無期徒刑就要適用舊法現在新判的無期徒刑要適用新法現在所有目前在監在看守所的死刑犯都是屬於屬於這個這個屬於個案個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的那我認為能審判這屬於嚴重的暴力的"},{"start":11840.673,"end":11867.378,"text":"的一個犯罪所以我們認為這部分是在社區是非常的危險的部長部長你沒有回答我的問題我的意思是說依據刑法實行細則假釋是以行為時的那個時間點的假釋條件就你今天你告訴宗家兵委員說這37個死刑犯將來如果判無期徒刑的話我募集徒刑修成終身不得假釋可以適用刑法這個整個違反規定啊那如果"},{"start":11868.078,"end":11886.401,"text":"你這樣你難道要割裂適用嗎?那現在的無期徒刑這不是立法政策的問題耶法律一時折轉我希望就是說這部分當然是可以討論的部長沒有這樣子我跟你講你這樣講我就完全顛覆我對法律的原來法律可以對他可以這樣對別人不可以這樣"},{"start":11887.162,"end":11915.823,"text":"那今天你無期徒刑無期徒刑得假釋的時間規定就是以行為實碼適應細則規定的清清楚楚那你今天突然要說他們可以適用終身不得假釋的新規定那今天在現在在關的其他被判無期徒刑的人非這37個那他們是不是也要適用新的呢你今天變割裂成這37個用新的其他人用舊的法律沒有人在這樣把各位各位這邊那麼多法官檢察官"},{"start":11917.401,"end":11937.079,"text":"部長不能這樣子啦好那沒關係部長這部分麻煩你們自己回去研議那第二個就是說上個禮拜一在執行部長的時候部長說重罪可以羈押我在那邊跟部長說4至665號以及行刑訴訟法101條第一項第三款已經說得很清楚了重罪"},{"start":11937.759,"end":11938.78,"text":"那我是認為不可以這樣子那再來就是說"},{"start":11964.709,"end":11969.434,"text":"我就是說 延續禮拜一的那個說法還有剛剛的講法啦"},{"start":11972.413,"end":11994.154,"text":"這些人這37位死刑犯當然如果非常上訴不成功那就是執行我想部長沒有意見但是如果他們非常上訴成功的話回歸到普通法院真的你們要注意在押是有時間限制的如果他一年內判不出來真的沒有法律可以再把他限制在在看守所內了"},{"start":11996.176,"end":12011.069,"text":"我們可能會面對法官不押因為法官是獨立審判我們任何人包括院長包括秘書長也沒有權利去告訴法官你必須才押或不押所以我們可能會面對到的風險是"},{"start":12012.93,"end":12028.421,"text":"被告他有可能會因此而沒有羈押而回到社會那法務部有沒有什麼因應作為這是我上個禮拜一一直請教部長但是部長都沒有回答的部分那我現在來回答那我想羈押權是屬於法院"},{"start":12029.181,"end":12047.018,"text":"那我想如果說法院不以我們經過各種的努力包括建立論告建立法官要羈押如果法官還是要判我想我們就是用抗告的程序那因為我們用依法的科技監控定期查房定期報告等機制來做對這些"},{"start":12048.78,"end":12051.041,"text":"科技監控沒有錯但是我們只是知道他人在哪裡我們沒有辦法"},{"start":12075.598,"end":12076.659,"text":"各位報告這是屬於審判中的失誤有關審判中的失誤"},{"start":12093.859,"end":12104.304,"text":"這部分再麻煩部長也要找內政部討論一下警政署討論一下看將來如果這些人沒有羈押的話能夠怎麼解決那最後不好意思再給我一點時間我想我們來回過頭去討論這次憲法法庭判決對於這個精神障礙的這個認定我覺得"},{"start":12122.111,"end":12142.153,"text":"就像剛剛那個翁曉琳委員說的其實這一次的法大法官的判決已經是數外裁判我認為也是因為大法官本來是解釋憲法但是這次現在大法官開始他會創造一些制度要大家去遵守那這個已經完全脫離我們對於大法官的認定就像以前我們在在刑法第19條我們當然可以"},{"start":12143.735,"end":12163.315,"text":"要求法官他在審理的時候去認定被告行為時他的精神狀況如何但是這次大法官他甚至多了一個要求說你在審理中要怎麼樣受刑了要怎麼樣資訊錢你要怎麼樣他已經多了非常多奇怪的要求這個都已經不是原本"},{"start":12163.996,"end":12176.986,"text":"對於法官在刑法19條的時候他可以認定他行為時的這個標準那我說真的我也是不能夠理解說大官這一次為什麼會做這樣子的認定他這個已經是"},{"start":12178.41,"end":12195.635,"text":"已經是變成說我認為是一個宿外的裁判了那這個部分我想可能我今天時間也不夠了我想我另外會找一個時間再來請教你們剛剛很多委員同仁他們有提到說就從硬抱主義去講或是說"},{"start":12196.668,"end":12225.223,"text":"從先什麼死刑是殺人這個我還是覺得啦就套一句那個布袋戲的話啦他說那個殺生是護眾為護生展業不展人所以說其實今天我們不是喜歡殺生我們不是我今天是為了保護眾生而去做這件事情在我們心中我不是取了他的性命其實他是在為他的業障去去做一個付出那個他這個責任所以"},{"start":12226.143,"end":12248.38,"text":"從頭到尾我都沒有說那麼認同去做這個應報的概念但是你要知道說死刑在這個社會上面的存在為什麼我自己主我們很支持尤其事務界非常支持因為我們都看過很多血淋淋的例子所以我們對於死刑我們認為他有存在的必要性而不是像有一些委員或一些學者他們可能"},{"start":12249.361,"end":12250.522,"text":"本來是想要提到精神病"},{"start":12269.531,"end":12290.909,"text":"的死刑的部分我想我可能就之後不好意思因為時間的關係部長那個37個死刑犯如果法院真的不再羈押我這裡建議啊因為執行是你們的權責嘛這37位就請15位大法官每個人認養3個你把他送到"},{"start":12292.296,"end":12302.817,"text":"司法院每個大法官輔導他們,心理輔導三個月,這樣可能就比較沒問題了,跟大法官日以繼夜三個月就好了,看他贊得到嗎?好,謝謝"},{"start":12317.349,"end":12318.029,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12339.277,"end":12350.015,"text":"秘書長,我上個禮拜總質詢談到刑事訴訟法第208條的修法。我不曉得你們司法院有沒有注意到這件事情?"},{"start":12351.192,"end":12375.71,"text":"那個就是鑑定的鑑定的這個停擺行事訴訟法對停擺現在說醫療糾紛的鑑定是現在所有的這個審理程序都停擺現在300件送到醫審會要去做鑑定被退回50件而且還有250件即將要被退回是"},{"start":12376.09,"end":12397.563,"text":"所以整個審理的程序都停擺影響了當事人的權益這把火是司法院放的可是現在沒有人在乎更好笑的是這個社會上最精英的兩大勢力法界和醫界在那裡惡鬥"},{"start":12399.244,"end":12409.312,"text":"你們修了法以後呢法界硬是要這樣子叫人家具名一屆就是我不願意我不理你你能怎麼樣可是犧牲了當事人的權益耶"},{"start":12413.325,"end":12442.348,"text":"那這個秘書長現在要怎麼解決跟委員報告那這個這個鑑定好像議審會是屬於機關鑑定那機關鑑定依需要照我們現在的這個訴訟法的正當程序的要求那必須要這個具名然後然後必要的時候要出來做說明這是法律上面正當程序的這個要求那當然當然我們理解說議審會方面有一些的"},{"start":12442.688,"end":12458.456,"text":"不要講這麼多我就問你啦因為這個修法是你們做的而且在修法以前2013年修法以前啦在2019和20年的時候當時就要修了而且還開了公聽會然後呢衛福部很清楚的"},{"start":12459.076,"end":12460.357,"text":"在公聽會上表示而且還具體的行文給你們表示對208條裡面要具名還有在審判中應到庭言辭說明鑑定報告等他們有不同的意見所值的理由"},{"start":12475.723,"end":12487.528,"text":"當時衛福部就跟你們說就鑑定的程序而言醫療就費的鑑定具有高度的專業性和複雜性本部會達成客觀性、公正性和專業性的鑑定本質醫審會的委員組成都有普遍性和專門性"},{"start":12492.89,"end":12516.973,"text":"而且呢他們去要請來醫審會鑑定的人啊都是各這個醫學中心或是各領域裡面的這個專業人士他們是做初審他們是做初審嚴提初步的鑑定意見可是你知道嗎醫審會不是初審的醫師寫了報告就定案了你知道他們是怎麼出去報告的嗎"},{"start":12518.555,"end":12528.974,"text":"最後有出審的委員他並不具名那最後是由那個建定會的委員我只要跟你講他們出審的報告不代表他們未來會出具的報告"},{"start":12529.997,"end":12541.324,"text":"他們是合意制而且要共識決而且出神的報告可能會被修正而且可能會被大幅修改而且可能會被再重新鑑定他們是合意制共識決在這裡你要求出神的意思去具名還是要求最後共識決的時候擔任主席的意思去具名"},{"start":12552.731,"end":12557.234,"text":"全體委員具名更好笑派一個代表更好笑這個委員代表出來他能代表誰只能代表他個人可是建立報告可能跟他個人意見不完全百分之百一致呢"},{"start":12579.653,"end":12582.335,"text":"當時衛福部就跟你講出去書面報告的鑑定連續還要到言辭說明鑑定報告他在辯論的時候還要再去造成作業上困難而且難有實意現在話又說回來了你們都覺得說"},{"start":12595.826,"end":12611.96,"text":"據名 要負責 要肯認這個證據力的真實性現在來了 我現在問你 據名才敢講真話 就一切鑑定而言喔 據名才敢講真話 還是不據名才能夠真正的玩 才能夠這個呈現真實 你覺得呢"},{"start":12615.183,"end":12635.099,"text":"跟委員報告齁具不具名是不是說講真話我想這個可以講因為具名其實是你要他有真實性而且要對他的證據力負責嘛而且要問責有法律責任嘛因為當事人可能有疑問對這個建立有疑問他有個人可以請教的對象請教的對象那如果像以前請教的對象這句話聽起來像是有另一層意義"},{"start":12640.523,"end":12644.467,"text":"好 沒關係你沒話就是希望呈現真實嘛對不對對啊 問題是我現在就問你啊 說得比較白咪咪 衛福部他在公文裡面有寫得很白他說醫學分科集系彼此之間 師生關係 同儕關係 朋友關係甚為熟人 及時相 經常相往來倘若建立一件書面報告具名 除非"},{"start":12666.007,"end":12671.688,"text":"均作有利於被鑑定醫師的鑑定．否則如作不利之鑑定．勢必又與社會網絡關係而拒絕從事鑑定．而無法釐清事實的真相其實他們在暗示雖然不應該這樣子但事實是應該要具名沒錯可是考驗著人性這個人性上沒有醫師願意這樣做而且"},{"start":12690.473,"end":12697.016,"text":"你們現在醫生會拒絕鑑定、退鑑你們也去找了醫學中心你們也去找了醫學會問題是藍醫學中心、醫學會、個別醫生、機關機構沒有任何一個單位願意再幫你們做鑑定所以當時他們所講的其實就是目標方法"},{"start":12715.209,"end":12719.934,"text":"這個沒有辦法一致目標是對的但執行上是不可行的因為違反了他們的人性嘛所以呢他們一再當時就跟你們講說欸報酬也不相當你叫他領一個車馬費然後要去跟你跑法院"},{"start":12731.647,"end":12735.43,"text":"那你叫他報仇相當對當事人訴訟當事人來講成本也不能負擔啊所以他在跟你們講修208條的時候你要新增第三項前兩項規定其他法律另有規定則依其規定但是這樣也不會改過來這件事請問你們現在家中有大人了我問你們啦"},{"start":12754.471,"end":12764.24,"text":"你不修法的話,不修法的話,要怎麼解決?現在沒有醫生要幹定,醫學會也沒有,醫學中心也沒有,個別醫師也沒有,醫學會也沒有,整個審理程序停擺,你們告訴我怎麼解決?你們放了火,司法院放了火,現在跟你們沒關係,因為法務部不會去理會,他們沒辦法跟你們去審理。"},{"start":12780.274,"end":12794.494,"text":"現在事不關己啊司法院擺爛啊從5月到現在沒有辦法進行審理擺爛然後法務部也沒關係反正這個東西是衛福部的責任"},{"start":12796.267,"end":12817.57,"text":"衛福部也 衛福部不是沒修欸 衛福部修了什麼 你知道嗎所以你是代理秘書長 但是你做副秘書長還寫專題了衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 修了什麼衛福部也�"},{"start":12817.97,"end":12827.285,"text":"沒有他修的是施行細則啦施行細則修這個我跟你講修了這個施行細則有用的話他現在不用繼續推薦"},{"start":12829.605,"end":12854.025,"text":"他修這個給醫生看醫生還是不願意他說這個相關的鑑定的資料文件應依政府諮詢公開法第18條第一項第五款規定限制公開或不予提供其鑑定書的內容由司法或檢察機關依法定程去提供這不知道在修什麼我也看不懂那跟你們現在刑事訴訟法有漢格之處怎麼辦"},{"start":12855.386,"end":12864.172,"text":"現在他修了知行記者也無解他也沒有人要做那現在訴訟要不要進行啊?訴訟要不要進行啊?我想我們會跟議審會跟衛福部我們進一步的你剛剛落跑了你們的你們是誰?廳長?刑事廳長?"},{"start":12886.496,"end":12891.269,"text":"他說了你們,你們是誰?是你嗎?你要負責嗎?你有沒有申請要回去當法官?有?"},{"start":12895.906,"end":12904.653,"text":"目前沒有啊那未來一定要是回到什麼未來未來11月1號以後新任的院長還是男產沒有院長一個代理院長權力的正當性就問號了代理院長權力的正當性問號如果在代理院長只在找一個秘書長他的正當性更是問號加問號欸是不是是不是"},{"start":12921.565,"end":12945.017,"text":"在野黨杯葛 我要講的是院長 我不講大法官啦 院長、副院長難產是1月1號以後正當性有問題 而這種問題也沒辦法解決人民的權利就在那裡 不斷地不斷地杯葛字在那裡 審理程序無法進行要不要修法 怎麼修法 沒有修法要怎麼解決庭長你來表述一下意見"},{"start":12948.897,"end":12965.876,"text":"謝謝委員的指教在這之前我們有跟醫事室那邊有討論過我們能派我們的組合法官到醫事室那邊跟醫整會的委員講重點怎麼解決那這部分可能要做進一步的再做溝通因為醫整會要不要修法沒有修法可不可以解決"},{"start":12967.359,"end":12986.248,"text":"我們有一些相關的鑽定人的禮遇措施包括他可以用過科技方法來做結問這個方式可以包括避免他被漏收你有問過衛福部醫生會願意嗎這部分我們還會再去做溝通事實上我們已經溝通了好幾次了因為這個醫師的鑑定他是專業人士其他別人也是專業人士包括醫事室是鑑定他是專業他是法定的鑑定機構現在專不專業不要講這麼多第一個"},{"start":12996.693,"end":12998.673,"text":"你們在那裡曠日廢食當事人的權益一天拖過一天已經拖了快半年了300多件未來還要增加幾件"},{"start":13024.119,"end":13028.442,"text":"在上面的權益,你們修了一個法有沒有可能再修法?有沒有可能需要再修法?你有沒有覺得很荒謬?剛修了一個法,放了一把火,讓訴訟當事人的權益不保,然後你說好我再來彌補,我再來修法"},{"start":13047.955,"end":13060.603,"text":"現在是遭令有錯細改無妨嗎?所以董事長你為什麼要一意孤行?為什麼都不聽人家的?現在就這樣搞到雞飛狗跳?對不對?"},{"start":13066.062,"end":13085.833,"text":"沒有院長在野黨喔我跟你講主席我是建議啊我不想有大把關啦但是院長副院長人事統一權不要像其他在野黨講的說要過的機會等於零要過的機會等於零整個司法院會停擺秘書長沒有沒有院長代理院長的權利正當性沒有然後整個像這種"},{"start":13090.928,"end":13115.701,"text":"製造了問題以後沒有辦法問題沒有辦法解決問題然後整個政策上的決定沒有人可以擔當的起來所以秘書長也要跑了再一個秘書長也要跑了在一個新的立法院正式通過的院長產生以前那個秘書長都是 都是不好的我們在這陣子也不好的 夠不可以回家而已啦所以我是覺得說在野黨外呼籲主席"},{"start":13116.86,"end":13144.501,"text":"我們就好好地審他的院長、副院長的人事其實呢 臨選荷爾默還有政治政治可以問責嘛 大家都有政治問責的機制可以存在 對不對 這樣子下去你叫司法院來 審預算叫任何人來 都不好 他們這些人都是不擔當不負責的 也沒有權力負責的所以是真的是喔 很荒謬啦 好啦我知道時間到了 謝謝"},{"start":13146.684,"end":13161.995,"text":"不好意思,謝謝林委員那個剛講的鑑定那個實務上真的非常重要對啊,你那個死刑精神病的鑑定對啊,好,好,謝謝下一位我們請傅坤祺委員發言"},{"start":13176.995,"end":13204.837,"text":"主席請秘書長秘書長委員好秘書長辛苦一下顧不論你是不是司法院的秘書長你身為司法界的議員今天就應該來面對今天大法官所做出的解釋造成中華民國整個司法體制的嚴重重大的迫害"},{"start":13206.158,"end":13226.715,"text":"破壞我們來如何面對如何來修復我想司法一直都是社會秩序最後一道維護的防線開始所謂皇后的徵抄但是今天這道防線已經成為中華民國台灣人心惶惶這個社會秩序要如何維護"},{"start":13236.9,"end":13263.797,"text":"荒鄉走板的大法官讓全民陷入空前的危機當中請問一下這個從9月20號到現在所謂的實質廢死這個又設了八道最嚴格的關卡本期請教幾個比較簡單的問題"},{"start":13267.225,"end":13269.086,"text":"何謂個案犯罪情節最嚴重、最重大之罪?"},{"start":13285.475,"end":13309.888,"text":"跟委員報告當然那個大法官的這個憲判字的那個理由裡面有歷史的一些的情形當然他有特別講那個那個未必故意的殺人不包括直接概括跟責任的這些故意然後另外另外包含說他有講一些情形如果如果說是無差別的那"},{"start":13311.528,"end":13335.937,"text":"他有講一些的情況那據說其他情形當然要個案的這些法官審審的這何一庭去斟酌那個刑法57條的這些犯罪動機目的手段這些的情形去做做那個個案的綜合判斷那那個書上面很多法官在用一些不確定我們叫不確定的概念不確定概念比如說常常沒有法律說必要時"},{"start":13337.337,"end":13338.218,"text":"因為這個大法官的解釋"},{"start":13351.67,"end":13380.163,"text":"秘書長說了半天就是一句話看個案不確定性請問既然是不確定性法院審理當中要以什麼為主要依歸什麼叫情節最重大之罪法官要如何適從在發生這個案件正在審理這個案件你夠粗暴夠殘忍這時候社會上又出了一個更殘忍的"},{"start":13381.089,"end":13400.741,"text":"那這一件事就已經不夠殘忍了就已經不是最重大之罪所以啊本席實在看不懂也聽不懂什麼叫做最重大之罪略而顯而易見的就是現在這位女教師被強盜強姦殺人"},{"start":13407.455,"end":13426.589,"text":"有人類死以來強盜、強奸、殺人本來就罪無可赦現在多了一條已經判了五個死刑結果現在法官他不要跟當朝來對抗不需要跟司法院、憲法法庭來對抗他們叫了一個他是隨機隨機比故意"},{"start":13436.069,"end":13454.152,"text":"他犯罪會比較輕嗎?水晶會比較輕嗎?水晶是更可怕的耶他隨時為爸媽隨時想怎麼樣就怎麼樣不需要任何預謀這是更可怕的但卻是因為大法官這麼荒謬的解釋無辜判死的人現在改判無期徒刑大家都揣摩商議嘛"},{"start":13466.069,"end":13478.937,"text":"何必去跟憲法法庭對抗何必跟司法院對抗未來官位不保啊都升不上去啊上刑下校連秘書長都講不出來人民要怎麼辦人民要怎麼辦本期再請教現在判死刑的人定讞的人"},{"start":13493.166,"end":13522.315,"text":"還要考慮重新回溯再來考慮他犯罪時他的心智精神是不是有問題在審判中他的精神他人格是不是有問題最荒謬的是在執行 定驗執行前本席第一次看到有沒有受刑能力的欠缺"},{"start":13524.773,"end":13524.873,"text":"請說明一下"},{"start":13549.291,"end":13554.802,"text":"跟委員報告那大法官的這個精神能力這部分我想"},{"start":13558.706,"end":13580.985,"text":"將來我們一定會在各個案的審判中那依照那個訴訟法部分跟那個醫療單位現在精神鑑定剛剛在這裡吵了這麼久是就沒有人要幫你鑑定嘛我想跟委員報告啦那我們會先關於機制包含說如果鑑定了這些報酬那個是不是齁這15位大法官先做精神鑑定啦"},{"start":13582.742,"end":13583.543,"text":"現在說啊各級法院啊"},{"start":13613.649,"end":13637.148,"text":"要採一致決第一院、高院三位法官要一致決最高法院五位法官要一致決這一直接侵犯到法院的組織法105條平一的時候本來就是多數決現在要一致決"},{"start":13642.328,"end":13665.722,"text":"請問一下現在這37位死刑犯中有哪一位在審判過程中不是一致決的有沒有跟委員報告齁因為大法官是說要證明說那當時是一致決那我們現在要調這一些的券包含什麼時候可以查清楚我們會盡快盡快是什麼時候嗎"},{"start":13668.843,"end":13687.255,"text":"在這裡在國會講話要清楚嘛什麼叫儘快希望在兩個月之內兩個月之內37個人你要掉兩個月這什麼行政效力啊因為這個保存卷宗保存因為有的都非常的久那我們卷宗保存是10年目前的規定是10年這是在你任期內耶9月20號做的解釋判決你們是不是早就應該啟動了"},{"start":13697.165,"end":13703.147,"text":"那本期再請教一下那如果未來檢察總長全部提出非常上述總長今天有沒有來主席總長應該要來嘛"},{"start":13725.646,"end":13752.999,"text":"這37位他要來做說明啊好 再來如果這37位提起檢察總長提起非常上訴之後這37位如果都改判了無期徒刑都改判了無期徒刑沒有一位法官願意去跟司法院對抗好"},{"start":13754.38,"end":13775.728,"text":"改判無期徒刑就如同強盜強奸殺人而且是隨機最可惡是隨機還可以改判無期徒刑請問一下秘書長如果改判無期徒刑這37位有哪幾位已經符合可以立刻假釋"},{"start":13780.509,"end":13783.75,"text":"跟委員報告部長也來請明確回答那個假釋是法務部的這個指導不不不來來來假釋要經過你們嘛來來來部長來"},{"start":13798.462,"end":13823.475,"text":"目前這37都在收容中那我們是反對這些收容的期間若有改判的話我們是不認為我們是反對記錄那個摺底刑期也記錄假釋的門檻期間那我們是反對的部長你不要在這裡搞政治嘛什麼你反對不反對你要依法執行什麼叫反對你要依法什麼叫反對"},{"start":13824.695,"end":13846.221,"text":"所以我們要修那個建立行刑法148條的那你現在就還沒有修法啊那沒有修法的話我們照這個那你現在修法可以溯及既往嗎我們是剛才有提到說我們這個修法的話可以溯及既往這個是屬於那個現在修法都可以溯及既往越講越離譜了你要鬧到國際聯合國人權委員會舉報違反兩公約什麼都來啦"},{"start":13854.141,"end":13859.065,"text":"你們弄了一個破網越補越大洞法律是怎麼來收集記網越講越亂來胡說八道北京現在問你的不是你願不願意肯不肯的問題北京現在問你的是依法這37位依他犯刑時候的法律如果趕他無期徒刑"},{"start":13879.383,"end":13905.276,"text":"有多少會議可以申請假釋?一線刑法的話因為假釋必須要執行才可以那現在是收容是不能夠折抵假釋的就是那個不能折抵那個刑期無期徒刑的刑期所以目前的話我們認為這部分我們認為沒有折抵的可能"},{"start":13906.007,"end":13907.627,"text":"重大的犯罪你們是牽涉收押嘛對不對"},{"start":13935.179,"end":13963.797,"text":"當時"},{"start":13965.612,"end":13984.419,"text":"最早的犯刑無期徒刑最早無期徒刑民國80幾年無期徒刑多少年可以假釋10年10年所以本席在問你嘛你不要跟我繞圈子嘛明確回答本席的問題把所有的資料查清楚部長所有資料查清楚這37位"},{"start":13994.399,"end":14011.664,"text":"從抓到人、收押、起訴、審判所有過程當中37位所有的資料收押期間多久這個資料送到本委員會來也送給本席一份部長清楚嗎清楚好請回這個秘書長既然啊"},{"start":14022.363,"end":14049.78,"text":"這個大法官可以造法本來憲法78條是在我們法律的判決有競合過程有灰暗不明有解釋不清定定不明的時候由憲法法庭來做解釋判決現在呢法律定得清清楚楚他結果來造法"},{"start":14050.669,"end":14077.728,"text":"玩法弄法而且要求要一致決直接違反立法院所通過的明確的法律而且我們國家也執行這麼久平一九十多數決他現在改成要一致決所以院長：那個秘書長請教一下所以是不是憲法法庭啊要求別人啊要一致決"},{"start":14079.165,"end":14088.451,"text":"憲法法庭未來15位大法官是不是應該要15位依法定員而15位一致決才能做解釋?法務委員那憲法法庭只是針對這個死刑的部分說要一致決並沒有說其他情要一致決那憲法法庭似乎也沒有說這個死刑就是刑法裡最嚴重之刑嘛"},{"start":14110.355,"end":14136.656,"text":"維護這個社會安全最重要的防線嘛誰家沒有婦孺誰家沒有孩子你讓我們的孩子面對這樣的一個這麼恐怖的一個社會嗎秘書長雖然工作上可能會調整但是你絕對是司法界大家庭裡面非常重要的一員"},{"start":14137.93,"end":14165.186,"text":"我們現在都在面對啊9月20號啊中華民國司法最淪喪的一天就是大法官的15位無恥無能大法官所做出這樣的一個毀憲亂政的一個決議所以本席在這裡啊認為啊既然是這樣的大法官以後更應該依照法定原額啊來做一致決啊才能夠啊"},{"start":14166.52,"end":14182.714,"text":"確保未來法律啊不會被嚴重的扭曲捍衛全國國人的這樣的一個安全我們這個國家為什麼越打越詐為什麼這麼多虛偽這麼多的假面從這15位大法官我們就看到這就是他們的真面目不敢說違憲"},{"start":14194.417,"end":14195.058,"text":"下一位我們請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":14222.24,"end":14243.147,"text":"謝主席本席想邀請秘書長以及部長麻煩秘書長、部長今天站上這個發言台其實要講這個議題我們的民眾非常的恐慌非常的恐慌"},{"start":14244.284,"end":14272.405,"text":"那也就是憲法法庭在大法官解釋之後社會普遍認為普遍認為是實質的廢死也因為這樣子我們又看到很多的個案這個個案陳儒大家非常關心而且不捨得曾經獲得師奪獎的退休老師他所遭遇到的這樣的一個現象情勢"},{"start":14274.244,"end":14288.236,"text":"被害者被這樣子的一個情況社會大眾都認為天理難容在這樣的情況之下五度被判死刑就因為這樣子的一個解釋這個社會該當如何"},{"start":14296.636,"end":14304.939,"text":"政府要怎麼樣去保護我們的人民我想聽聽兩位您對於這個事件的看法委員 個案獨立審判的情節怎麼樣說實話我們尊重獨立審判這個是司法院的職責大法官的解釋出來很多人也講大法官這一個其實"},{"start":14326.488,"end":14341.713,"text":"並沒有說它是說死刑是違憲的它只是要求設定在個案情節最嚴重跟符合憲法最嚴密的正當法律程序只要符合這些東西還是可以判處死刑的那將來"},{"start":14344.61,"end":14365.301,"text":"將來如果說個案的這個情形我相信維護這個社會的治安跟有沒有判這個死刑恐怕是不是有這麼直接的這些關聯我想這個大家是可以討論的但是死刑就成如如果像剛才委員所講的目前正好在我們的除了最近發生這一件那麼其他國家也正好發生一件"},{"start":14366.281,"end":14367.381,"text":"這是你的回答我讓社會大眾"},{"start":14392.526,"end":14397.84,"text":"了解看到我們的政府他是這麼回應民眾的他是這麼的回應民眾來請"},{"start":14402.336,"end":14430.098,"text":"跟委員報告我們認為死刑是核限的那這次憲判議址也是認為死刑核限但是對那個屬於那個故意殺人這部分他是認為是屬於個案犯罪刑最嚴重的罪那但是還要他是要求要再進行嚴密的正當的法律程序所以這些程序補足了這個就可以判處死就可以把這個危險的處理掉那我們現在該進行的就是要趕緊修法"},{"start":14431.099,"end":14442.639,"text":"讓依照憲判意思趕緊修法那我想這個判死刑還是有他的一個一個空間那我想我們法務部還是本的這個質詢我們對這種人審公分的這種案件我們都是要求"},{"start":14443.993,"end":14446.774,"text":"在完備法律這部分我們大概以法來處理了謝謝"},{"start":14468.188,"end":14490.613,"text":"我要請社會大眾聽到政府的回應在大家面對這個困境義憤填膺的時候得不到政府的保障安全的時候我們的政府部門所做的回應是如此我們也拭目以待但是本席還是要告訴大家這樣子的解釋"},{"start":14492.381,"end":14517.498,"text":"是不是敲醒了司法正義已死的喪鐘我們台灣的司法還有正義嗎我請社會來公平請這個司法院請回座法務部部長我想要跟你討論一個問題也就是目前全台灣我們總共大概有五萬五千個受刑人"},{"start":14518.922,"end":14543.812,"text":"那麼這些的受刑人不管是他在怎麼樣的情況就是在我們的看守所或監獄裡頭那我們看到目前監獄相關最多的是什麼呢殺人、搶劫、性侵不是而是什麼?毒品犯對不對?第二個是什麼最多?詐欺"},{"start":14546.212,"end":14567.004,"text":"所以換句話說五萬五千人裡頭有三萬三千人就是詐欺跟這個毒品犯我們在這樣的情況之下難免大家會認為有輕判將刑期打到骨折的這個情況"},{"start":14568.57,"end":14586.798,"text":"所以因為將刑期打到骨折導致債範率會高尤其這兩個三萬三千人的回籠率會高我們用實質的質化量化來看我們的政策所以影響整個社會秩序"},{"start":14588.021,"end":14589.162,"text":"關於那個假釋問題齁我們是採那個"},{"start":14607.967,"end":14631.321,"text":"那個核死來神和寬延兵器,我們認為有加化的效果的話,我們達到角色門檻,我們盡量就會給它核准出去了。依法你目前是如此嗎?對,但是我們所呈現的社會現象是如此,該當怎麼辦?你覺得也沒辦法啊?你已經抄說了這麼多啊,你現在預估你們現在容納量你抄說了多少啊?"},{"start":14631.874,"end":14632.054,"text":"請說明一下"},{"start":14650.236,"end":14664.939,"text":"包括委員我們的合併收容人大概是6萬人左右那目前前台的收容人大概是5萬8千多所以我們目前是沒有超收但是在北部地區是有超收集中"},{"start":14666.22,"end":14681.126,"text":"北部地區像北堅、北鎖還有我們台原監獄跟宜蘭監獄它是有稍微超收大概將近兩成其他是還好尤其比如外藝監或是少年角色的學校這邊都沒有超收的問題"},{"start":14681.826,"end":14708.09,"text":"好 財政署一個回答還好我心驚膽跳因為部長我已經告訴你了因為其實你們也背了一個黑鍋送到你這裡來你不說不行但是一個政府應該他在整個橫向他必須是嚴密聯繫的這才是對的所以我希望你們勇於去提出你們的困境出來才不會讓人民這麼樣的恐慌"},{"start":14708.831,"end":14713.025,"text":"我們已經從上頭的原則、制度、方案"},{"start":14714.181,"end":14738.388,"text":"法律講到結果論山蘇政策整個山蘇啊我們這個國家到底出了什麼事部長所以我也希望你們勇於提出你們的困境我們大家一起好好的讓台灣不是一個犯罪天堂好嗎你也把剛剛本席所提問的請你書面資料怎麼樣經濟方案也給本席好嗎謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":14743.562,"end":14772.288,"text":"那個秘書長剛剛那個楊委員所提到那個你剛剛有講到說什麼冤獄後來多久後發現嘛那我跟秘書長報告其實冤獄的解決方式是強化訴訟而不是不能執行你不能說因為有冤獄的可能性所以不能執行死刑兩個邏輯不一樣嘛你沒有強化司法的訴訟然後避免冤獄的產生而不是說這樣子就推論死刑執行是有問題的"},{"start":14773.228,"end":14774.688,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員發言麻煩秘書長"},{"start":14804.85,"end":14819.692,"text":"委員好我想我們今天在這裡都是討論非常沉重的話題那這次大法官對於憲法判決結果媒體也說這叫新增八道的生死門也就是說八個條件都要過關才有可能被判死刑"},{"start":14820.43,"end":14834.251,"text":"所以社會嘩然大家都說這就是要等同實質廢死那我想前面也非常多委員都已經提有講到相關的問題但我想針對其中兩個部分來跟大家做討論也想各單位表明自己的立場"},{"start":14835.515,"end":14859.976,"text":"首先就兩個這個PPT上面的條件做討論原本原文在這個PPT上面那簡單來說就是如果犯罪者在審判中或是在監獄中只要無法向監獄外的人身心正常那就不應該被判處死刑想請問一下我們的司法院的代表這個秘書長我這樣的理解有錯嗎"},{"start":14862.24,"end":14867.041,"text":"那我想請教一下這樣子長期被關在監獄裡面收押一段時間之後會出現身心狀況應該是非常容易發生的事情吧?"},{"start":14886.584,"end":14897.065,"text":"各案有沒有這種情形可能還是需要做評估跟鑑定那不見得說都會發生我想不見得但是比例應該挺高的吧"},{"start":14898.518,"end":14922.228,"text":"好我給你看看我們也可以看到廢死聯盟自己提出的報告也說死刑犯活著就等同於被虐待痛苦且毫無尊嚴我想在這樣的情況之下很難身心沒有一點狀況其實也不要說死刑犯我想大部分人只要長期被關起來長期被監禁的環境下身心狀況沒有辦法說完全沒有異常吧是不是"},{"start":14924.966,"end":14949.52,"text":"這部分可能要專業的去評估還是我們可以請那個法務部長是不是可以請我們部長可不可以告訴我們這樣的情況在監獄裡面這個受刑人的身心都很健康嗎跟委員報告這是屬於那個執行面的問題那我想我們會做一個輔導那做一個協助那這個執行面是不是我可以請那個矯正署長來回答好"},{"start":14952.202,"end":14980.596,"text":"報告委員目前前台監所是以毒品患為最多那以所謂的精神問題毒品患比如說吸食安慰他命他可能會破壞他的比如說腦神經他會有被害妄想等等我想請教就是說你在長期這樣子收押的情況之下是不是受刑人其實很容易不能夠說他完全沒有精神異常應該是會出現一些精神異常或是他只要說他精神有狀況就可以了"},{"start":14981.072,"end":15003.157,"text":"跟委員報告,我們現在跟鄰近的納入二代健保,會給他比如說精神方面的看診,或包括說...好,你沒有回答我的問題喔,我想說好,我還是,我看就不用再回答,我還是回到剛剛講的這個段落,基本上只要在審查的判斷的過程,他整個審判的過程當中,他只要說他精神有狀況,"},{"start":15004.097,"end":15031.516,"text":"就不應該被判死刑我想這就是大法官的解釋這也是我們一般民眾沒有辦法理解還沒有辦法接受的非常的離譜喔那我想另外我也想要問憲法判決裡面還有要求必須是最嚴重的犯罪情節才能夠判死我也很好奇這樣的定義到底是什麼我整理了一些例子喔姦殺檳榔西施的人這樣子嚴不嚴重是不是最嚴重是不是犯最嚴重最嚴重的情節"},{"start":15033.396,"end":15046.249,"text":"是不是最犯罪最嚴重的嚴重情形?法官他各案他一定要調查所有的這個證因為我沒有接觸到這個案子的那個好那也有把母子一起吊死的"},{"start":15047.954,"end":15072.804,"text":"這樣嚴不嚴重?也有人把人綁在車子裡活活燒死的甚至也有把我們人民的保姆殺害之後說把他判死刑的話就是會讓法律變得殘忍所以應該要廢除死刑的這些人在我們大眾眼裡都是最嚴重的犯罪情結者那是怎麼樣?還有什麼方法可以比較出是最嚴重的犯罪情結嗎?"},{"start":15074.704,"end":15103.946,"text":"跟委員報告齁 那麼各案當然他被告抗辯說他不是最嚴重但是檢察官他就會去說服法官說他的情形是最嚴重好秘書長部長我想要說以前以前古代有這種開國的元勳可以拿到免死金牌青天白日勳章現在啊到我們這個社會現在非常的悲哀啊居然是大法官頒給坐監犯科的人免死金牌給了他八道免死金牌"},{"start":15105.472,"end":15132.126,"text":"真的是讓人民非常的心寒這8道免死金牌讓人民覺得非常的錯愕另外我也想要請問警政跟這個法務部這個憲法判決等於是讓犯罪的成本有上限就如同常常聽到犯罪的人說反正又不會被判死刑所以是不是會擔憂這樣讓我們的治安更加的敗壞也會製造檢警跟司法院的矛盾會不會"},{"start":15136.046,"end":15147.42,"text":"我想現在還是實行還是制度還是維持那判死現在沒有說一定就不會判死因為司法院的報告裡面自己也有說要有共識那我想請問這樣子什麼時候會有共識"},{"start":15148.865,"end":15154.85,"text":"我想我最後做個結論這一次的大法官釋憲讓我們人民看到的是大法官頒給了我們做監犯科的罪犯8道免死金牌讓人非常的遺憾"},{"start":15179.212,"end":15197.43,"text":"大法官滿職的荒唐人民一把辛酸淚讓我們覺得非常的對於未來非常的沒有光明沒有這個社會沒有這個公平正義所刻眼所以要再次強調我們現在已經不只是反對廢除死刑我也反對廢除實質的死刑謝謝"},{"start":15202.183,"end":15213.571,"text":"蘇清泉委員、高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員"},{"start":15227.168,"end":15238.512,"text":"委員好我們都不知道該怎麼說這個事了我們就從個案開始講起吧這最近這個退休女老師的先搶再兼再殺的案件是不是最嚴重犯行"},{"start":15241.753,"end":15263.523,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個個案個案要我沒有參與這個案子的審理那案子的卷證那法官各省的法官本於他自己審理的結果本於他的本於他對法律的認知去做判斷所以基本上甩鍋給法官嘛他們處理就好對不對他們認定就好對不對由他們來認定因為個案說實話我們沒有接觸到這些卷證那我們"},{"start":15269.546,"end":15276.329,"text":"現在司法院對於法院的這個大法官的詮釋等於給了一大堆的裁量又修改了門檻現在還要全體一致決"},{"start":15296.13,"end":15324.259,"text":"這個實務上來講會不會造成判決死刑更加困難實務上來講會不會跟委員報告齁那其實其實在憲判期之前齁在兩公約之後齁我們簽署公正公約之後公正公約已經要求是個案最嚴重那時候其實在沒憲判之前有一些裁判就已經就已經援引公正公約去設限那這一次比較要求一些正當程序正當程序的部分那其實法院的實務上面"},{"start":15325.379,"end":15329.82,"text":"不要在那裡繞圈子這報告裡面其實已經寫得很清楚了給了一大堆除了我們剛剛講法官自行可以按新政來認定是否是最嚴重之外你也開了一大堆的後門包含精神障礙等等"},{"start":15345.484,"end":15369.546,"text":"那我要問的是你們包含前面的這個釋憲的這些詮釋跟你這幾天的報告這些重點我就問你寫了一大堆保障加害者人權的各種條款跟各種條件可是你在詮釋這個憲法的過程中你有沒有考慮法律在社會中公信力的重要性"},{"start":15370.567,"end":15382.233,"text":"有沒有考量法律有維護社會秩序穩定跟人心安定的作用有沒有有的話請你拿出來講一講我們從來都沒有看到這樣的事情這些概念不重要嗎秘書長"},{"start":15383.43,"end":15403.2,"text":"跟委員報告我想憲法法庭當然是基於維護憲政秩序的穩定因為憲法是整個國家最基本的高於其他的法律所以他解釋憲法的本質意志保障生命學這個意志我想大家都應該要尊重"},{"start":15403.86,"end":15426.045,"text":"好 所以你又推給大法官嘛反正就他們解釋了對不對我們回到剛剛那個姦殺案來講這其中有媒體的報導裡面講就是說他之所以可以逃過死刑有很重要的原因是屬於隨機性的並非預謀的所以並非最嚴重之行為好 你從個人角度來講你講預謀可能比隨機更嚴重可是從社會的角度來講難道隨機殺人帶給社會的危害比預謀殺人差嗎"},{"start":15429.724,"end":15457.403,"text":"我們剛剛幾個委員在下面討論我們一致都認為我想人民百姓也都這樣認為隨機殺人對治安的危害對社會的影響是比預謀殺人更嚴重可是從你們的詮釋你們的想像你們的主張裡面它不是最嚴重所以我們可以給它放一條深入這不是胡鬧是什麼呢剛剛我們也討論憲政諮詢講得真好我們在修國會改革法案的時候你講立法院擴權我告訴你現在"},{"start":15458.721,"end":15469.97,"text":"司法院擴權啊所有事情由你大法官說了算然後你這個擴權侵害到的是什麼侵害到的是整個社會對於我們司法系統的公信力我今天這樣子的說法秘書長你要反駁嗎"},{"start":15477.12,"end":15504.171,"text":"跟委員報告那大法官解釋憲法本來就是憲法的意思大法官解釋那各個機關包含我們都必須要尊重都要尊重現在就是一群沒有民意基礎的蛋頭在搞擴權然後把所有的權勢權抓在自己的手上我們立法院是五權機關裡面最貼近民意的我們今天如果不把這些話講清楚我們有愧選民的所託來法務部長"},{"start":15506.252,"end":15529.421,"text":"我要再有請我請教幾個問題我們剛剛已經確定司法院大概對最嚴重的犯行大概不會有什麼明確的定義跟激證那我們回到法務部的權責法務部你總管下面的檢查系統對於維護社會安定你的想法是什麼你覺得有沒有必要考量社會大眾的想法跟法律維繫社會秩序的公信力跟安定性有沒有必要考慮"},{"start":15531.428,"end":15531.888,"text":"現在37個還沒有執行"},{"start":15549.082,"end":15568.217,"text":"委員報告 他們會不會通通提非常上述 這個要看因為這個才在調選中 那個這個整個 有可能對不對 不一定 這個是那個檢查總長這是一憲法訴訟法是有檢查總長的職權 他會就這37個個案我相信他會做妥適 什麼時候會有結果 這個我沒辦法去跟委員報告 你沒辦法確定 沒辦法保證"},{"start":15568.817,"end":15572.081,"text":"整個法務部系統對於這37個你現在口口聲聲講他核限他講他核限什麼時候會執行怎麼處理"},{"start":15586.716,"end":15607.49,"text":"司法院秘書長說解釋的是大法官?你現在講是檢察總長處理,是嗎?以前在所謂大搞實質廢死的時代,很多時候是最後那張公文放在你桌子上你就不批,對不對?以前當然不是你啦,現在經過這樣的程序之後放在你桌子上你會不會批?"},{"start":15609.434,"end":15631.963,"text":"如果這37個經過程序之後,確定要執行的時候,批不批?這個如果審核控告的話當然要執行啊當然要執行啊,那你覺得你有沒有機會批到?我們現在擔心民間擔心的是我沒辦法頒委員,我想這部分的話民間擔心,我要提醒部長的是,民間擔心的是這37個案例可能到了最後,十幾二十年以後大家也不會放在你桌上這就是大家擔心的事嘛"},{"start":15632.443,"end":15640.753,"text":"對不對我們有太多後門了嘛太多機會太多巧門可以逃開了這個是社會的一大悲哀現在"},{"start":15641.895,"end":15666.329,"text":"對於釋憲後修法的方向同樣通篇照顧加害人權對於被害者、被害家屬社會穩定的重要性跟權利隻字未提我不知道兩位是忘記了還是害怕想起來但是我要嚴肅的提醒如果這事情未來沒有標準沒有依據它只會讓事情更複雜鄭捷難道不是隨機殺人嗎他不就槍斃了嗎然後你現在講隨機殺人好像沒有這麼嚴重"},{"start":15670.376,"end":15696.912,"text":"那為什麼當初槍斃他這個未來難道不會變成我看看民意聲浪必要的時候我再走一下程序不必要的時候我就放在那個地方這樣子對這一群犯罪人的人權才是真正的加害真正能夠捍衛人權的方式反而是把標準很明確而且依法執行這才是正確的嘛我不知道我們在這邊講會不會變成狗吠火車啦但事司法院法務部未來的作為大家都在看謝謝啦"},{"start":15699.181,"end":15700.101,"text":"接下來我們請鄭正前委員"},{"start":15728.956,"end":15750.617,"text":"政政前 政政前 林思明委員 林思明 林思明 蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜好 那接下來我們請洪孟凱委員主席謝謝 麻煩請法務部部長麻煩部長"},{"start":15757.996,"end":15782.203,"text":"委員好部長剛剛牛雪婷講說不知道會不會是狗肺火車我們已經擔憂了這根本就狗肺火車因為大法官做出這樣的一個解釋之後真的會讓國人很擔心台灣是不是之後是非不分殺人不管是有冤有仇無冤無仇殺人就應該償命"},{"start":15784.383,"end":15799.228,"text":"因為你是殺人啊重點是殺人這件事情可是到最後現在變成是好像我們的標準已經浮動了那我再請教當然個案很難做一個釐清跟討論可是本席不僅想到上個禮拜"},{"start":15800.612,"end":15817.317,"text":"本席新北市發生一件非常令人難過的事情一個毒販開車我們有一個英勇的員警所長去盤查看他覺得奇怪颱風天前夕怎麼會停在路邊去盤查這個毒販"},{"start":15819.438,"end":15844.929,"text":"新生恐懼或是有任何的狀況他駕車逃逸讓這個所長掛在那個門窗外面到最後所長被毒販為了要擺脫那個勇警那個所長往護欄旁邊撞造成所長因為這樣被撞擊過大離開了這一個毒蟲這個毒販已經多次前科而且當天是獨駕"},{"start":15847.982,"end":15861.394,"text":"本席以及國人不禁要問如果以現在大法官的釋憲這樣的一個做法來講的話這個讀寵是不是到時候不會被判釋憲跟委員報告因為大法官釋憲他是針對"},{"start":15863.735,"end":15888.277,"text":"故意殺人的這部分以及殺人的結合和這部分來做一個解釋但是委員關心的問題其實我聽了我說實在我看這個新聞真的很難過因為他那個那個警察是非常優秀建中又市長非常非常優秀的他原本是在本期的選區三支當所長之後到主委當所長"},{"start":15889.338,"end":15907.826,"text":"他甚至我聽很多的員警同仁講說他已經有念應該是碩士還是博士學歷也非常好非常盡責那之後調去才不到兩年的時間那部長就直接請問了以現在的這樣狀況如果到最後這樣獨從"},{"start":15909.639,"end":15934.11,"text":"我跟他也無冤無仇我也不知道他誰但他犯下這樣的一個犯刑就是法理難容啊那如果法理難容的情況到時候變成是我們一審、二審、三審還要幾個職業法官都一致同意甚至你剛剛講了如果說他不是當初以殺人來做這個犯刑的話說不定他還可以逃過變成只有有期徒刑還不是無期徒刑國人能接受嗎"},{"start":15935.789,"end":15960.863,"text":"這部分我想檢察官也都是認為這個被告行為可惡而且合乎羈押的一個要件那有逃亡之虞那這部分檢察會申請法官羈押候證那我這個案件剛發生不久那我想這部分檢察會妥適的一個偵辦追究被告的一個犯行從嚴追訴那我想這部分"},{"start":15962.044,"end":15990.1,"text":"從嚴、最嚴可以到什麼程度這部分還要看案情的一個釐清因為我沒辦法跟委員做一個報告是不是說他有獨駕獨駕是獨駕過世致死或是逃逸過世致死那我想這個刑責非常重我想這個檢察會就依照那個證據來認定犯罪事實那我想委員關心的這個問題那我想是不是故意的這部分我想檢察會是一定的來了解釐清部長本席沒有要指導辦案"},{"start":15991.718,"end":16017.128,"text":"但是看到這樣的一個新聞真的上禮拜我們不要每一次都是今天公祭明天旺祭尤其這個所長他的他還有兩個小孩一個一歲一個四歲真的非常難過真的非常難過拉回來我們這一次講因為我們現在也有推動國民法官法"},{"start":16018.001,"end":16024.726,"text":"那國民法官法裡面其實它有兩個條件是可以讓國民法官來共同參與的一個是"},{"start":16028.243,"end":16052.368,"text":"最新10年以上的有期徒刑一個是故意犯罪而發生死亡結果者對不對所以可以讓國民法官共同參與但是現在大法官如果釋憲完之後是不是即便國民法官認為說他是要判死刑但是只要有職業法官不認為不同意的話他一樣不會被判到死刑這個理解是這樣是不是可以請那個司法院來回答"},{"start":16060.811,"end":16079.104,"text":"國民法官的法庭是三位職業法官跟六位的國民法官那依照這個憲法的話這三位的職業法官那都必須為死刑的這個一致局但是六位國民法官裡面只要有三位三位的話那這樣就達到國民法官的三分之二死刑的這個門檻"},{"start":16081.366,"end":16095.867,"text":"對 但是本席的問題啊本席的問題是如果說今天叫我剛剛這樣子來討論國民法官六位都認為是說他是應該要判處死刑但只要有一位職業法官不同意或職業法官沒有認為說要判死刑他是不是就可以逃過"},{"start":16096.923,"end":16117.484,"text":"跟委員報告那這樣我們推動國民法官的意義何在我們當初推動國民法官意義不就是認為是說少數的法官讓大家覺得是恐龍法官也因此抹煞了大部分法官的努力而造成我們認為是說就應該要用正常我們社會大眾共識的一個標準你們廣告做得很好啊找君君"},{"start":16118.635,"end":16147.403,"text":"找其他那些來拍廣告很好啊本席有看到啊那你不就是要講是說賣菜的大姐也可以來參與這個專家學者也可以來參與一般的市井小民也可以來參與我們就是用我們一般人的常識來去判案那所以6名的國民法官比不上一個職業法官要不要修法跟委員報告齁那這個國民法官好當然要配合這個憲判去修但是"},{"start":16148.85,"end":16165.117,"text":"說那個在一個法官本來的國民法官裡面就是規定說說今天假設作有罪判決的話那個國民那個職業法案本來就要介紹要有一位只是說這一憲判要求死刑的只針對死刑不是死刑的部分也沒有這個問題"},{"start":16167.137,"end":16185.347,"text":"所以我們現在討論就是死刑的部分今天不是我們稍微討論就是死刑的部分當然國人划欄也是死刑的部分啊就認為是說你明明雖然大法官講很好聽叫做合憲啊但叫做有條件合憲結果實質上就是往廢死的方向走所以國人才會划欄嘛才會認為是說是非不分嘛"},{"start":16186.277,"end":16204.033,"text":"那我現在延續我剛剛一開始的質詢到現在的問題都還是強調既然我們當初認為是說有漏洞我們把它補起來沒想到大法官的視線又再出了一個漏洞那我們要不要補這個漏洞再者你的國民法官法之前就已經講了什麼樣的國民法官是可以參與判刑"},{"start":16205.094,"end":16220.932,"text":"一個就是犯罪侵本行為10年以上有期徒刑者另外一個是故意犯罪而因而發生死亡結果者換言之你們也認為國民法官要進來就是比較重的犯刑嘛要嘛就10年以上的要嘛就是死亡的"},{"start":16221.843,"end":16241.912,"text":"所以既然都已經有這樣子的一個前提條件了代表說國民法官審理的案件很有可能是有死刑的裁量空間的那可是大法官給一個巧門只要職業法官三個有一個不同意抱歉你們六個國民法官講不聽不算這樣有嚴重嗎"},{"start":16246.465,"end":16259.974,"text":"跟委員報告大法官是一再強調判死刑死刑的宣告是無可挽回的所以他要求最嚴謹我當然知道不能挽回阿人死了也不能挽回阿所長離開也不能挽回阿秘書長代秘書長"},{"start":16270.186,"end":16295.129,"text":"記得一個禮拜前我在總質詢的時候質詢行政院院長那時候的部長也講說要用兩年的時間趕快把漏洞補齊修法那如果說這樣的話我覺得這是一個很大的漏洞本席也會提出相關修法我也希望司法院也要有態度不是說大法官說什麼就算什麼"},{"start":16298.399,"end":16313.472,"text":"法律制度是我們希望玩一個更好的台灣邁進如同昭偉常講對好人越好壞人越壞而不是好像壞人我們想方設法幫他找找巧門找漏洞然後對於好人這麼好的一個人謝謝謝謝那請回"},{"start":16323.609,"end":16350.894,"text":"好那今天所有發言登記發言委員都已經發言完畢那委員質詢的時候如果有提供相關的資料或以書面答覆請相關機關趕快交給個別委員還有本會那委員林思明所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報然後請相關機關以書面回覆那本次會議到此結束現在暫會謝謝大家"},{"start":16356.36,"end":16356.627,"text":"本集完"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:30:19 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少將資通電軍指揮部參謀長陳俊良 少將軍事情報局執行長鄧敦仁 少將電訓發展司執行長許益新 上校"},{"start":2198.383,"end":2209.157,"text":"國防大學教育長李承忠少將國家中商科學研究院院長李士強中將"},{"start":2217.335,"end":2233.384,"text":"本日會議邀請國防部就台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況及未來展望以及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應與精進作為兩項主題進行報告並備質詢。"},{"start":2238.828,"end":2241.411,"text":"其中第二項為機密報告兩項報告才先公開然後清場然後秘密方式報告後接續詢答詢答則為先秘密後公開時間並記"},{"start":2258.083,"end":2272.076,"text":"本會的委員10加2分鐘,非本會的委員6分鐘,10點半發言登記已截止。如有臨時提案,請於10點半前提出,11點左右是尋答情形進行處理。"},{"start":2296.021,"end":2308.404,"text":"謝謝主席我現在要講的是一個程式發言關於今天的會議召委安排的程式從公開改成機密本席非常無法理解"},{"start":2310.444,"end":2324.86,"text":"美國軍火商已經虛報價格的事情是美國司法部調查及媒體報導的事情根本已經不是什麼隱瞞的機密跟議題"},{"start":2326.281,"end":2344.474,"text":"這件事之所以受到國人的關注就是因為這些金購都是納稅人的錢國人想知道錢到底在哪裡這是攸關於所有國人的權益我們所責任讓國人清楚了解狀況"},{"start":2345.535,"end":2353.262,"text":"因此本席建議周圍有關於美國軍火商虛報價格的問題及議題應該還要以公開會議的方式來處理所以以上"},{"start":2366.874,"end":2381.92,"text":"好等一下公開質詢一樣是可以詢問我們只是先排機密然後讓國防部報告清楚因為到時候萬一公開資訊的時候可能所有委員又說是機密這樣來下一個"},{"start":2391.963,"end":2396.59,"text":"我們現在請國防部顧部長上台就公開部分進行報告。"},{"start":2411.818,"end":2430.939,"text":"主席而各位委員今日應邀到大院委員會進行專案報告稱呼各位委員對本部一百一十三年度赴美參加臺美國防工業研討會關切與指導在此表達誠摯的謝意本部訪團由軍備副部長徐上將"},{"start":2432.86,"end":2456.29,"text":"率團與美方充分研討與意見交換深化台美國防產業交流加速成為美國國防產業供應鏈接續由國防部軍備局局長林文祥中將就本部113年度赴美參加台美國防工業研討會成效及合作現況與未來展望向各位委員實施報告謝謝"},{"start":2467.028,"end":2495.33,"text":"召委各位委員大家好軍備局局長報告台美國防工業研討會議成效及合作現況與未來展望專案報告一、前言美台商會自91年起主辦台美國防工業研討會為台美合作運作平台會議主軸為雙方雙邊國防產業交流每年邀請本部國內政黨專家學者及台美國防產業代表參加"},{"start":2497.091,"end":2516.846,"text":"本部已連續23年受邀出席。美方參加人員除國防廠商及學者專家外,美國防部及國務院亦派遣對台事務官員與會,現僅就本年的會議執行概況,具體成效及未來的展望,在報爐後。二、"},{"start":2519.697,"end":2545.546,"text":"執行概況今年台美國防工業研討會於9月22至24日在美國賓州費城召開本部受美台商會邀請出席由軍備副部長徐上將率團與會除副部長應邀於開幕典禮花表演說外令商業規劃建立區域和全球聯盟以應對威脅對台的灰色地帶侵擾"},{"start":2547.106,"end":2559.254,"text":"對台灣的威懾和防疫努力投入資源、諾曼蒂登陸的作戰場景及2024年美國大選的潛在影響等五個議題共同實施研討"},{"start":2561.513,"end":2586.253,"text":"一、副部長以關鍵的臺灣需要關鍵的武力為題．在開幕典禮中發表演說．重點如厚。瓜五一、臺灣是民主典範．位於西太平洋第一島鏈中枢及半導體產業．對全球至關重要等三個理由．現在的臺灣是世界的臺灣．值得民主國家予以支持．共同捍衛和平與自由。瓜五二、"},{"start":2587.054,"end":2614.149,"text":"一、防衛作戰需求建構不對正的作戰能力提升作戰韌性持續增加國防預算對美軍工堅持後備戰力及建立全社會防衛韌性作為。三、支持台灣納入美國防供應鏈透過與美國美國防廠商密切合作建立更強大的威懾能力其演說的內容"},{"start":2615.205,"end":2642.711,"text":"或美官方的代表、國防廠商及相關的學者支持以肯定。二、配合商會規劃由國防院、戰規師及作記事等代表分別於第二、三、四議程發表專報,於議程由本部參與研討。三、本部代表分別與美國廠官學界就國防重要事務研討與溝通。四、"},{"start":2644.313,"end":2657.404,"text":"與在美華文媒體查序說明我施政的立場及國防自主政策獲得高度的肯定。三、具體成效：感謝說明政府國防自主政策及雙邊合作事項"},{"start":2658.533,"end":2681.121,"text":"美方各界均表達支持臺灣以國防自主的方式提升自我防衛能力具體成效在述如後一、臺美關係持續穩定成長美方於研討會公開場合均一再地表達臺美關係穩固美國對臺灣支持堅若磐石近期美方通過友台法案"},{"start":2683.236,"end":2698.547,"text":"機細致力協助台灣維持足夠的智慧能力以確保台灣站在民主陣線共同應處中共的軍事威脅二、協助迅速籌獲防衛武器美國依據2023強化台灣正信法"},{"start":2701.26,"end":2705.563,"text":"透由外國軍事武廠融資及2023年國防授權法授權總統使用總統提供權等管道協助台灣加速軍備獲得。三、"},{"start":2715.649,"end":2732.274,"text":"提升台美國防產業韌性研討會台美雙方場觀學界約有200多人次均一致認為台灣具備科技、人才及優質的工業基礎可成為美國國防產業合作的夥伴"},{"start":2733.554,"end":2757.223,"text":"達成雙贏發展。四、強化台美國防產業合作。台灣中科院及民間科技廠商具備相當的技術及產製能量。研討會期間與美國防廠商充分的溝通、研討、深化雙邊良好的合作機制與溝通平台,有力促進產業升級,落實國防自主政策。"},{"start":2758.539,"end":2778.867,"text":"四、未來展望．本次會議．台美三方場觀學界討論熱烈．本部則具體向美方各界．清楚說明我國防自主的政策外．並表達台灣具備高科技軍功能則產能．將藉擁有的技術與美方加強共同合作．強化雙邊國防產業的韌性．"},{"start":2781.428,"end":2803.295,"text":"每方欲於研討會公開的場合再次表達台美關係穩固等需運用各項遊火法案協助籌貨符合我防衛作戰需求武器裝備促進國防產業合作發展後續懇請大院繼續支持本部各項國防政策及施政作為報告完畢敬請指導"},{"start":2809.195,"end":2823.022,"text":"公開報告結束接續將以秘密會議進行機密報告本席先做以下的宣告參與秘密會議人員請切實遵行保密規範現在將進行清場"},{"start":2826.914,"end":2846.499,"text":"稍後參與秘密會議人員除了委員外都要憑機密證進入會場。所有人員將以手機、攝錄影、設備、電子手錶、手環、二哥大等儲放於場外的置物櫃並接受駐位警人員偵測檢查。同時請務必簽署保密切結書。請議事人員清場。"},{"start":2852.517,"end":2874.275,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4407.675,"end":4414.24,"text":"現在登記公開質詢委員開始詢答請沈博洋委員上台質詢請顧部長"},{"start":4441.716,"end":4464.565,"text":"市長委員好部長好那不好意思這個剛剛機密質詢花太多時間了所以我看我只剩一點點時間所以我有些可能跳過了這個沒有想到剛剛會花那麼多時間那這個呢這個我就先跳過好了我先問一下這個漢祥的這件事情就是說因為我看到漢祥在2023年有說他導入這個CNMC就是美國這個公立院資安的相關的一個規範"},{"start":4466.025,"end":4494.585,"text":"目前是應用在F16的維修他說2026年美國當然是要求要全面實施因為剛好這次漢翔出現的新聞爆炸的事項我就不再重複因為畢竟這是落實的問題就是說我們宣稱說我們要符合這樣的一個規範但是符合這個規範以後到底今天發生的事情有沒有在這一個相關的產業鏈安全的規範裡面如果要落實的話以後我們要怎麼去說明可不可以請說明一下謝謝"},{"start":4495.99,"end":4522.631,"text":"各位很簡單報告第一個就是漢祥他洩漏在網路上的資料我們經過初步的查證沒有涉及軍事機密或國家機密所以他沒有違法的部分但是他在我們的合約保密條款裡面所有公務上的相關的資訊都不能在網路上洩漏所以我們才會裁罰他一百萬元這個純粹是就是工程師個人的行為目前我們界定是這個樣子所以我覺得這個也要小心因為畢竟我們已經開始要納入到產業鏈資安的規範"},{"start":4524.272,"end":4545.063,"text":"對,他很想因為跟美國有一些零附件的一些合作所以他很希望能夠儘速導入CMMC那我們也在鼓勵中科院還有其他的相關要導入這個美國現在驅龍化的供應鏈的這些包括無人載具的系統也要希望能夠導入這個CMMC資安承受署的認證"},{"start":4546.924,"end":4575.326,"text":"剛好最近這個新聞又有報導就是說我們這個台灣媒體這個還是就是不是台灣媒體台灣媒體去引用這個其他的媒體說我們現在軍用品有這個中國製的產品這個當然中科院我看到有一個初步的回應不過這件事情我覺得很奇怪就是說不管是國內的廠商有意見然後還是說有人去爆料為什麼有人爆料會先去新馬傳媒網去爆料這個對我來講也是非常詭異的事情你要爆料當然是台灣現在在場有那麼多媒體都可以爆料"},{"start":4575.726,"end":4602.374,"text":"報導到海外然後在國內的媒體在引述這件事蠻奇怪的但即使當然奇怪但我們還是要正視這個問題那不知道現在這件事情的這個狀況是如何今天和明天我們跟廠商講好了一起開箱驗收我們會針對所有被爆料質疑的部分一項一項去檢驗所以要花兩天的時間那我想問一下就是說在這個爆料還沒有出現之前本來驗收的時間就是在大概這個時候嗎還是說現在是你們提早的驗收的時間"},{"start":4603.427,"end":4605.828,"text":"最後就是今天因為還有一個今天的專案報告的主題是這個臺美的這個國防工業會議"},{"start":4623.553,"end":4643.001,"text":"我還是在我剛才機密會議有講過啦我覺得台美這個國防工業會議是一個不對外公開的會議不對外公開的會議那我們現在在這邊講然後現在又是一個公開的場合對我來講是有點奇怪所以呢當然現在既然已經排了所以我們還是針對這個做質詢但是我問一些別的問題第一個我想要問的就是這一個"},{"start":4644.662,"end":4671.76,"text":"就是這個創新小組因為上次在上個會期快結束的時候有講到這個DIU那這個DIU目前的發展的狀況如何因為畢竟今天如果我們講這個跟台美這個國防工業會議要去洽談要去討論等等事情除了本來我們武器上面的一些需求等等之外在研發上面兩邊互相怎麼溝通我覺得DIU通常來講還是可以扮演一個蠻重要的角色那不知道現在DIU因為上次在問的時候是說現在正在"},{"start":4672.74,"end":4695.447,"text":"廣納正在招募相關的這種新的人員那不知道現在進度為何跟委員報告第一個是說我們在國內的部分就是我們現在跟國會、蘇阿部、經濟部建立一個跨部會的一個平臺那就這個跨部會平臺我們會提出我們國軍的需求然後其他的部會透過補助國內的民間廠商他去做投入開發"},{"start":4696.607,"end":4724.374,"text":"那開發之後呢或者直接就產生一個成熟的商品然後支持我們來做這樣子我們的一個戰力整建這樣子那這個跨平台的部分已經成立那現在跟印太司令部的科學及技術處還有美國防部的國軍國防創意那就是DIU也已經建立了這個交流的機制那我們會共同來分享哪一些可以運用民間技術的成果跟經驗"},{"start":4725.354,"end":4747.474,"text":"這個部分已經有一個交流的一個計畫那現在另外進一步我們已經召集了聯參跟各軍種來檢視未來戰力軍警的需求那所以就結合國內外商情就是說現在透過美國的幫協助等等那國內外商情那上次你也看到那個像美國的商務部也率團來過來然後來進行這些無人機"},{"start":4751.838,"end":4761.768,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、"},{"start":4772.518,"end":4786.765,"text":"主席再給我30秒 因為DIU剛剛有講到他跟印太等等之類相關的一個交流那因為交流畢竟還是需要預算因為在之前2023年的時候就有曾經動用過這個預備金然後去做這些相關的交流"},{"start":4787.765,"end":4814.005,"text":"我是想說因為現在預算書已經送出來了但是這方面的交流相關的預算的這個編列不知道現在的狀況如何但因為現在時間的關係已經到了所以這個不然我下次再繼續問那我之後可能我也先跟部長講一下後來想他問就也是跟這個工業有關就是因為畢竟我們這個FMF可以分成無償跟有償那現在拜登政府簽了這些無償的部分但我不知道美方到底有沒有無償以後轉有償的一些需求或想法那因為這個一定會"},{"start":4814.705,"end":4815.065,"text":"謝謝沈博洋委員"},{"start":4839.224,"end":4846.107,"text":"國防部長請回下一位請羅美琳委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長羅委員好"},{"start":4864.534,"end":4882.344,"text":"中國在今年的兩會期間宣布編列軍事預算是人民幣一兆六千多億,也就是年增了7.2%中國創新高的軍事預算讓周遭很多國家都倍感壓力,所以也都紛紛提高了國防的預算"},{"start":4884.065,"end":4886.646,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":4908.755,"end":4919.848,"text":"等採購三十七案的軍事投資計劃甚至還包含了軍工教整體的調薪百分之三等等那照理來講現在的國防委員會應該是要來"},{"start":4923.832,"end":4923.852,"text":"請問部長："},{"start":4947.809,"end":4974.43,"text":"我們主要是新增案的部分因為新增案的部分影響比較大那新增案的部分對於在我們建國不對稱戰力還有後備戰力的這個部分有相當的琢磨所以我們當然很希望就是說這些新增案的部分不會因為這個總預算案的被封殺那因此使得我們沒有辦法有任何的新增案那當然潛艦也是其中的一部分"},{"start":4975.351,"end":4991.771,"text":"那現在這怎麼辦呢?部長這部分有跟在野黨的委員做溝通嗎?整理了總預算案當然我們希望行政院能夠出面然後來跟在野黨做溝通那我們對於我們自己國防預算的部分呢?"},{"start":4992.714,"end":5014.462,"text":"國防預算的部分都現在新政幹沒有辦法能夠就是國防預算如果卡關的話那等於我們的新政幹沒有辦法的話那我們一些包括剛剛比如說快速布雷艇、新型步槍這些等等那甚至民雄航太的無人機產業園區開發也都會受到影響這整體的來講當然對我們整個國家安全來講應該是會有一些重大的影響"},{"start":5021.904,"end":5049.531,"text":"所以這部分的話除了是要跟在野黨的委員溝通之外我想這部分也應該要跟國人來做說明好那再來還有一點就是進入到今天的這個主題台美國防工業會議那這個會議是由我們國防部的副部長徐副部長的率團來做出席然後在這個會議當中副部長還有呼籲美方應該要儘速來協助台灣建立關鍵性的武力那其中包括讓"},{"start":5050.652,"end":5065.771,"text":"臺灣加入美方軍工產業鏈來比照日本跟澳洲希望能夠獲得共同授權生產軍品除此之外我們也看到了美國國防部印太安全部首席"},{"start":5067.393,"end":5086.137,"text":"副助理部長沃爾有提到美國近期將會組成印太地區產業任性夥伴台灣在其中會扮演重要的角色與此同時美國也在9月22跟25當中有無人機廠商在AIT的牽線之下來跟台灣的無人機產業跟中科業來"},{"start":5093.058,"end":5119.374,"text":"所以我們可以看得到說這種種的跡象再來還有9月30號9月30號像這個奧克拉荷馬州的這個官員也率領了這個十多家的無人機的這個相關廠商來拜訪台灣跟台灣的這個無人機聯盟簽署了無人機產業國際脫銷合作備忘錄所以從這種種的跡象看來我們是不是有機會爭取加入美國飛鴻供應鏈請問"},{"start":5122.516,"end":5144.842,"text":"美國打造飛虹供應鏈特別在無人載具這一塊是已經有形成一個決策了根據這樣的一個決策它當然希望結合相關的國家來共同特別在無人機的部分因為現在大概有75%以上的無人機的製造都是來自於中國90%以上"},{"start":5147.663,"end":5148.963,"text":"對整個這個就是因為他這個裡面"},{"start":5174.251,"end":5174.811,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售協議"},{"start":5194.68,"end":5207.55,"text":"我們的確是有很多案子目前正在洽談中但是細節就因為都有簽了保密協定也不便透露但是我們的確是有機會也有這個潛力加入這樣的國民電"},{"start":5209.153,"end":5229.144,"text":"從美國最近的態度來看,從他發表的言論裡面,其實美國對台灣的創新能力其實是非常的肯定。所以也就是說,其實我們應該是,台美軍工產業合作應該已經初步來講是成型了嘛。所以加入這個飛鴻工業鏈其實應該是值得可待嘛,是不是?"},{"start":5231.95,"end":5259.524,"text":"我先講第一個應該是美國在大力推動的一個政策這個是政策形成那接下來就是說要如何來打造這是一個當然有一個現實的狀況是有很多在中國製造的原件確實是比較便宜所以如何能夠要把它cost down就是說成本能夠降低這個是大家現在要來思考的一個課題但是這個政策已經形成了"},{"start":5259.684,"end":5277.981,"text":"那政策形成之後接下來就是說是哪一些的這個像比如說無人機啦無人艇啦那可以擋入這個供應鏈裡面的一環這個部分要大家來做細部的一些討論那剛剛鐘克遠也講了事實上已經你也知道這個團26個這個公司都過來了那也進行詳細的商談"},{"start":5285.407,"end":5301.093,"text":"具體的項目可能要原諒我們就是說沒有辦法在這個時刻來做一個具體的說明但往著這個方向走是美國主導來大力要來推動的一個政策這是毫無質疑的這樣"},{"start":5302.053,"end":5329.872,"text":"好的,謝謝,了解再來就要提到漢祥了剛剛我們省國洋委員也有提到漢祥當然之前報出工程師在公開社群的帳號多次分享國際國造的機密資料當然經過調查之後國防部有核定說這些就沒有涉及我們涉密的功效可是它是屬於重大的違規"},{"start":5331.813,"end":5357.59,"text":"那當然這個漢翔後來還是被罰了這個一百萬那我這邊要提到的就是說我剛剛有提到像奧克拉荷馬州在9月30號的時候其實有跟這個我國的無人機聯盟簽署了一個MOU這個聯盟的主席就是誰呢這主席就是漢翔航空工業有限公司的董事長那類似這樣子他們公司又出了這個包那會不會讓這個美國對於"},{"start":5362.274,"end":5391.316,"text":"台灣在這保密方面的有所質疑的這會影響我想美國也好或者是其他有門國家也好或者我們自己本身也好我們要做一個比較更詳盡的一個不管是在這個治安面或者是在人員的查核安全查核面上面都需要來更加強這個是應該我們要努力再去做到的"},{"start":5391.756,"end":5411.745,"text":"是的,因爲像憲密案,我們再來對照回來,我們國防供應鏈,其實我們有所謂的保密機制,所以在2017年的時候,我們爲了要推動國防自主跟國防科技供應,所以其實我們有比照美國建立了國防科技安全"},{"start":5412.305,"end":5413.626,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":5435.545,"end":5436.566,"text":"再來我們還提到這個CMMC"},{"start":5464.597,"end":5492.896,"text":"我們要加入美國的這個國防的供應鏈其實台灣的國防產業你就要加入導入CMMC像美國國防部的推動CMMC的2025年的時候預計就要來生效了2026年的9月之後呢美國國防部他就會在採購案就要強制來要求承包廠商你必須取得這個認證那我們台灣準備好了嗎我們有導入這方面的這個機制嗎請問部長"},{"start":5495.237,"end":5512.867,"text":"跟委員報告就是說漢祥或者是中科院都應該要當領頭羊來努力來達成私人運輸的一個要求那現在另外比較大的部分是另外有一些私人的私利的這些產業"},{"start":5514.128,"end":5516.49,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":5544.348,"end":5548.43,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":5566.116,"end":5584.753,"text":"對於這樣的一個認證的所需要的這個費用就可以比較大幅的降低那我想這樣子的話比較多的尤其現在的意願上面就是說如果他能夠加入這個供應鏈他就會有一個產業規模的商機嘛因為如果單靠軍方坦白講軍方需求就這麼大"},{"start":5587.535,"end":5588.456,"text":"那這目前有在談了嗎?有在談了。美國是認同這個部分的嗎?"},{"start":5614.175,"end":5637.639,"text":"美國承諾會盡量來?會盡量,對,我們比較擔心的就是說如果沒有拿到CMMC的這個認證你就拿不到美國的這個訂單這是讓我們比較擔心的部分所以既然我們都已經參與了一系列的這個美國工業這個會議那當然這部分我也希望就是說能夠就是說在國際上我們能夠取得這個所謂工業產業的這個"},{"start":5640.78,"end":5642.582,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":5658.018,"end":5658.678,"text":"我們一直在積極的交流對談當中"},{"start":5681.366,"end":5694.16,"text":"我想有一些部分就是說要導入供應鏈要進入到供應鏈第一個讓他看到前景他就會願意積極來做第二個的話可能你導入那些部分的話可能要進行一個實體隔離然後來達成這個也就是說"},{"start":5698.664,"end":5699.384,"text":"下一位請馬文君委員上台質詢"},{"start":5735.298,"end":5736.623,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":5745.72,"end":5746.941,"text":"國防部跟中科院其實最重要的目的是針對我們的整體國防安全還有我們在整個國家"},{"start":5771.98,"end":5772.96,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情"},{"start":5788.867,"end":5817.893,"text":"美國的供應鏈等等他能不能賺錢或者是不是有利可圖那個應該是其他部會比如說像經濟部而不是我們應該要深刻去關切的我想這一個他的輕重緩急或者他的重點我們應該要劃對所以在這裡我們要提出一些探討台美國防工業研討會議我們最重要的一個成果是什麼"},{"start":5820.171,"end":5844.344,"text":"臺美國防工業的一個最重要的成果我想就是說我們跟他表示就是說臺美國防產業的這個韌性要能夠達成這個雙贏的發展所謂的雙贏發展就是像我們剛剛聽到的或者我們在報告裡面上面看到的主要就是要教授臺灣成為美國國防產業的供應鏈是這樣嗎"},{"start":5849.695,"end":5875.761,"text":"這個當然是其中一個非常重要的一個部分那當然另外的跟美國那邊有做一些交流那對於如何迅速的籌貨我們所需要的防衛武器那透過多元的管道特別是一些這一個安援的手段就是說PDA也好FMF也好或者是其他像"},{"start":5875.981,"end":5899.524,"text":"部長您剛剛有提到說迅速籌貨我們需要的一個武器裝備因為我們剛剛看到的就是因為大家提出來在表面上談到的這些似乎都不是我們真正應該迫切需要的因為除了剛剛我講到成為美國國防產業供應鏈以外另外聽說中科院也要變成美商的供應商有這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":5901.004,"end":5923.604,"text":"成為美商的供應商對比如說因為現在全世界對於無人機的需求非常的大那也有很多不管是我們自己國內要開發一個基地也好或者像美國很多的公司之前才過來嘛奧克拉荷馬州其實它是一個農業州吧"},{"start":5925.632,"end":5926.613,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":5945.947,"end":5954.077,"text":"所以我現在要知道說中科院會變成美商的供應商嗎比如我們跟美國要採購像因為"},{"start":5957.608,"end":5975.276,"text":"院長之前您還在站規司的時候你還特別提到我們的建想做得非常好那建想後來把它拆成可以兼征然後還就是打攻擊的部分其實是拆開的那這個部分是不是還是一樣做得非常好?當然我也是所以如果由我們自己生產有什麼樣的問題?"},{"start":5983.4,"end":6011.787,"text":"有沒有問題都沒有只是需求的規模要看國軍能夠擴大到多大我們剛提到了我們應該我們所科研的投入這麼多的經費然後如果我們國內有這樣的量能可以製造這樣的無人機當然要先供應我們國防部的需求嘛對不對是所以這個部分我們國內自己可不可以做可以當然我還是要再強調一遍就是各軍種的需求能夠把量擴大到多大"},{"start":6013.13,"end":6020.152,"text":"我們過去在做東西的時候你比如你在做潛艦你在做我們的永英號你在做其他的武器裝備的時候你有考慮到說他們國防部應該要提供到多少的量能可以維持他們嗎這是我們要考量的嗎你今天投注這麼多的科研經費你今天要做這樣的產業園區你今天國防部編了好幾百億想要成立國家隊要採購他們的這些產品那主要目的"},{"start":6040.819,"end":6063.516,"text":"其實我們也是希望可以產業同時發展嘛是對我要強調的就是一個國防供應鏈韌性的問題因為今天不是只有中科院在生產我有很多我的供應鏈下游的廠商在協力你們有把它停掉了嗎不能停掉有停掉嗎沒有沒有沒有停掉你們沒有把你原來配合的廠商把它停掉叫他先不要做有這樣子的事情嗎"},{"start":6063.996,"end":6066.538,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":6090.602,"end":6112.887,"text":"我想應該會只要通過我想現在已經通過了嘛那為什麼要停你在軍規商用的部分你們編了很多錢然後現在又急著要參加美國的供應鏈可是我們自己已經研發出來而且已經通過測品的部分我們卻把它停止不用我不知道什麼原因這個部分因為今天的時間關係我們可能沒有辦法讓大家在這裡回答"},{"start":6117.148,"end":6146.076,"text":"就是說瑞恩二型通過作案測評確實改善我們也會納入建案這個第一個沒有問題第二個所有相關包括您剛提到的這些無人機產業或者其他的這些相關的這些產業我們主要的就是要建立一個自主生產的能力這個自主生產力不能單到中科院還要靠中科院相關的這些下游的這些廠商那這些廠商大家一起合作能夠進行一個自主的生產能量"},{"start":6146.476,"end":6148.057,"text":"我們想不出來為什麽我們要全部都是買美方的或者我們要"},{"start":6175.097,"end":6178.658,"text":"或者我們要去用所以我剛剛念了很多個部長既然在這裡同意那未來我們希望看到我們到底要怎麼樣去進行現在我們比較擔心的就是說我們成為美國國防供應鏈我先提出來我們可能會擔心的部分我們會跟美國採購的部分我們希望台灣不要變成代工把它做出來以後再回到美國"},{"start":6201.082,"end":6216.594,"text":"美國在賣來台灣給我們,這樣我們真的也是一個盤子。這個是我們可能料想到的可能發生的事情。在這裡我們先提出來。不是賣給我們吧,是打入國際吧。應該是委員這樣的講法好像是有點……沒有,這個向部長……"},{"start":6219.076,"end":6232.367,"text":"我們希望它不要發生啦,如果我們自己已經可以幫它做,表示我們自己就可以做,你都已經要發展產業園區,你自己都已經科研出來的東西,如果我們幫人家代工,然後再去高價買回來,這樣這是對不起國人的,我先提出來另外另外"},{"start":6240.914,"end":6244.977,"text":"美國的關鍵技術如果會給我們通常軍火商不會把他的關鍵技術隨便就給出來如果這麼容易的話F16不會到現在連維保的我們說維修中心我們到現在維保都還沒有部長因為時間的關係我現在要再提出來因為那個是未來可能發生的事情你們也不用笑未來我們希望它不要發生這個因為"},{"start":6265.569,"end":6281.737,"text":"因為這是我們民脂民膏美國海軍公布新的戰略文件2024年美國作戰海軍領航計畫提出33號計畫它要整合人工智慧無人系統要提升後勤跟人力素質要因應"},{"start":6282.797,"end":6288.203,"text":"解放軍在印太地區日益擴張的軍事影響力而且他強調必須在2027年之前做好跟大陸爆發衝突的準備這是美國提出來的他的33號計畫"},{"start":6298.354,"end":6318.812,"text":"這個部分因為他們提醒中共可能要以中共已經要求解放軍在2027年該年之前可能就會做攻打台灣的準備所以他們自己本身也要做好這樣的防衛準備那現在距離2027年不到三年的時間如果以美國海軍的標準我們國軍準備好了嗎"},{"start":6321.674,"end":6339.584,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們的目標就是不斷的強化自我防衛的能力然後來共同形成一個嚇阻的力量讓這個2027可能會發生的事情不斷的往後遞延所以我們不斷的強化自我防衛的能力才能夠產生嚇阻的力量我們聽到因為剛剛是美國的"},{"start":6342.165,"end":6349.167,"text":"他們的報告他們的計劃已經做出很明確的時間點我們不知道什麼時候會發生你說我們用文字去敘述說希望他遞言我們當然希望不要發生而不是遞言可是我們不知道的情況之下你應該要做什麼樣準備美國都已經要求自己要在2027年做這樣的準備那我們準備了什麼我們現在看到美國智庫卡托研究所其實他之前也都提過了"},{"start":6370.635,"end":6387.259,"text":"到8月份為止他在9月公布的統計研究報告裡面美國對台軍售嚴當尚未交貨的武器裝備累積的金額這個也一而再再而三的提起大概有205.3億美元其中傳統武器有108.7億不對稱作戰的武器有70億彈藥有26.6億美元當這些我們急需迫切需要的我們編了很多的預算"},{"start":6400.503,"end":6401.965,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":6420.265,"end":6431.197,"text":"通過6000多億以上的錢到現在都還沒有拿到這對我們會有什麼影響?關委員報告我想他這個所計算的一個基礎是不正確的是不是請張律師簡單說明一下這個部分不要在這裡說明因為"},{"start":6434.781,"end":6437.822,"text":"這個部分已經不斷地提出來像這些東西我們不要看數字我們看到的是這些東西就還沒有到比如F16V我們已經付了1600多億總共特別預算變了2500億而已付了1600億我們到現在都還沒有看到首架飛機到這裡本來去年就應該要交了今年第三季也沒來"},{"start":6459.011,"end":6462.133,"text":"我們還是希望F16的這個交運可以符合在2026年的年底以前全數交運完畢那首架的飛機我想我們希望在今年第4季能夠看到"},{"start":6487.645,"end":6491.846,"text":"部長,我們現在大家一直在幫忙推遲或者講你現在都已經出不來現在面對的國際局勢更嚴峻連中東的局勢都已經非常緊張的情況之下美國的武器裝備其實他們要製造會有更多的困難所以俄烏跟疫情都可以影響美方提供給我們的武器裝備沒有理由你在整個國際局勢更困難的情況之下"},{"start":6516.355,"end":6527.711,"text":"我們還可以樂觀的覺得他們可以準時可以如期如質的交給我們這是我們要特別提出來的接下來跟主席借一點點時間我想在這裡剛剛"},{"start":6531.212,"end":6555.12,"text":"老實說在我們的機密報告裡面裡面的內容其實比報導的其實都還要少我們有時候不需要因為當國人都非常清楚的想要知道說到底發生什麼事我們到底被騙了什麼未來還會不會被騙這才是應該國防部應有的態度在這裡我想要請教一個問題就好了"},{"start":6556.789,"end":6563.55,"text":"兩大軍火商顯然在很多過去的武器裝備是提供給我們不管是軍購都可以發生這樣的事情我們有很多商購的包括海昆號也買了這樣的武器裝備我們有沒有去做一個"},{"start":6582.014,"end":6583.535,"text":"美方已經救這個雷神所有相關的內案來進行這個集合調查的程序"},{"start":6601.793,"end":6609.038,"text":"我們自己不需要嗎因為我們通常買的都比其他世界各國貴美國都會發生這樣的事情而且他有特別強調這其中可能牽涉到洗錢貪毒還有官商勾結美國調查的是他們國內的那部長有沒有掌握到我們國內的人有沒有問題這是我這裡要提出來的這是第一個第二個還有沒有可能還有類似的未報事件會不會有"},{"start":6631.452,"end":6633.013,"text":"部長,那是美方調查的是針對美國的部分我們現在提出來是說我方有沒有這樣的疑慮你連調查都還沒有調查"},{"start":6653.641,"end":6667.171,"text":"你應該要先去了解一下整個過程到底有沒有什麼樣的狀況或者在其他的案子上面有沒有這樣的問題不然到最後到時候又被爆出來那可能對我們國防部的傷害會更大他說以時間的關係我們後續可能還有相關的問題再跟國防部做請教"},{"start":6674.696,"end":6676.777,"text":"接下來我們請洪森翰委員上台質詢。"},{"start":6710.852,"end":6724.263,"text":"謝謝主席請顧部長請顧部長前兩週在總統府有開了全社會防衛任性的委員會當然這次是總統府"},{"start":6737.56,"end":6756.617,"text":"這是第一次來召開這個委員會那這當然也是接下來台灣在整體的國家政策的發展上面一個非常非常重要的主題所以其實我知道除了部長參與那其實很多其他的部會也包括有很多民間的團體產業界其實大家也都參與了"},{"start":6758.298,"end":6777.848,"text":"所以大家現在會很關注的點就是說從過去其實大家在談全社會動員到現在其實也有幾年的時間那我知道國防部一直是由這個權動署來做一個有點像是幕僚單位的重整那所以大家包括很多動員計畫跟任務的規劃其實也"},{"start":6780.849,"end":6807.931,"text":"大家也會越來越關注甚至也希望有更多的細節出來我想先問部長部長你有沒有看過這個布袋戲的蘇環真他這個是一人三話蘇環真你有沒有看過沒有你沒有看過是你沒有看布袋戲小時候看小時候很久以前這個在布袋戲裡面鑽的這個角色一個人會他有扮演三個功能那現在大家會有點擔心或提出一個問題"},{"start":6810.149,"end":6831.024,"text":"我們接下來在整個全社會動員的計畫裡面在動員時期會不會出現比方說同一個景蕭但他一個人可能要扮演三個不同的角色可是他是同一個人他在同一個時空裡面可能只能出現一次但他在三個計畫裡面都有他"},{"start":6833.615,"end":6853.755,"text":"他到底要去哪裡?他到底要做什麼工作?現在這個是蠻多關注這個全社會防衛或全社會動員的朋友其實很關注這個問題也就是說我們很多演練背景的想定其實應該要符合實際可調動的資源部長同不同意這個概念"},{"start":6855.901,"end":6881.115,"text":"對,就是說我們那個背景的想定必須要更結合...背景的想定,我背景的想定要夠清楚,所以要符合我可以真正能夠動用的資源,這個概念應該是同意的吧?對,就是說對於可能的重大災害或者是任何的緊急狀況、情況之下,那資源有可能是有限的,所以他必須要去想定,"},{"start":6882.156,"end":6883.278,"text":"國防部的角色不是只是帶兵打仗"},{"start":6899.66,"end":6922.267,"text":"其實他更會要視狀況跟情境來動員包括衛福部、交通部、警政署、人力、物力的資源這都是國防部可以動員的問題所以國防部在擬定計劃的時候他就必須要了解到到底其他部會跟其他部會的相關的聯動可是現在我們看到一個狀況我們到底會不會在預想我們演練的情境的時候就像我剛才講的"},{"start":6923.171,"end":6934.983,"text":"到底我們的警箱像警消或其他的公務人員到底他的任務設定是什麼到底接下來在國防部希望調動他們的資源的部分到底要調動多少調動去哪裡"},{"start":6936.443,"end":6965.086,"text":"這部分我不知道國防部現在有沒有很清楚的規劃了因為針對這個各部會的動員計畫的問題我其實去問了警政署我問他說第一個動員階段軍方預計會調動多少警力第二個問他既然預知到可能調就是警政署可以調動的警力可能不是百分之百但有沒有演練過百分之九十、百分之八十、百分之七十在警力壓縮的狀況下面他要怎麼來維持治安防衛的任務"},{"start":6968.035,"end":6992.344,"text":"這幾個問題應該都是很基本的問題但現在警政署給我的回答都是這樣他說動員時期我們會被國防部調多少人執行什麼任務我們現在不會知道他們說等到動員時期國防部自然會跟我們說或者是說我不知道調動人數所以我當然現在沒有辦法回答你我到時候在警力壓縮裡面我要執行我的治安維護計劃的話我要怎麼"},{"start":6994.295,"end":7021.684,"text":"我要怎麼來規劃現在在警政署給我們答案都是這個事情所以看起來如果國防部一天沒有辦法把他可能在什麼情境裡面會調動多少警力警消的人力給計算出來的話其他部會在規劃他們的任務的時候他會有很大的困難他可能也會卡住不然他就會變成是我就是要設想我百分百的警力去做一件事情可是就像剛才部長說的這事情幾乎是不太可能的事情"},{"start":7022.903,"end":7049.861,"text":"所以人員的重複使用在現在我們很多的動員計畫裡面看起來是一個問題但其他部會現在是確實是在等待國防部給這個情境可是我要說這個問題我們在問國防部的時候又發現幾個狀況這個我們在問國防部的時候國防部跟我們說跟這個部會都跟國防部有相關可是不知道是誰要統籌所以部長針對這個部分"},{"start":7051.024,"end":7066.46,"text":"你覺得該怎麼處理?跟委員報告齁因為我剛好之前在國安會任職嘛齁那在相當的時間裡面我們陸續的去盤點這些相關依照特別是依照權動法"},{"start":7068.082,"end":7078.454,"text":"還有這個民防法可能我們應該有的一個韌性的一個準備那現在總統成立這個全民防衛韌性委員會之後現在應該是要從盤點進入到驗證的這個階段"},{"start":7082.578,"end":7099.979,"text":"所以整個漢光的演習應該要結合這個明安跟萬安的演習當然過去本來就有一些結合不過都是像明安的話他都是由地方政府來自己來進行所以我們現在要必須要將想定更實際"},{"start":7101.641,"end":7103.222,"text":"我問了國防部說就像部長剛才說的盤點規劃的這事情要進行"},{"start":7128.012,"end":7147.213,"text":"那這兩個月其實我也找了權動署包括陸軍後勤指揮部包括後勤參謀市長市喔縣指部等等等我也問他說這個盤點規劃目前會是誰來做誰來進行那這些單位都跟我回答說這些事情都跟我們有關係沒有錯但都不是我們統籌"},{"start":7148.86,"end":7174.401,"text":"所以我們現在的問題是說當我們要來找一個這個大腦中枢到底是誰來統籌誰來做情境規劃的時候就部長我想問國防部裡面就國防部裡面因為權動署是這個權動法的秘書嘛那這個事情會是誰來統籌跟規劃這部分跨部會的一個統籌我想就這個部分因為涉及到國間的部分那整個統籌應該是由管會來會負責來統籌"},{"start":7178.664,"end":7184.051,"text":"會是有國安會是不是?對,因為全面人性防衛委員會的執行秘書是"},{"start":7191.269,"end":7211.345,"text":"有,內政部,然後互召集人是國安會,所以國安會涉及到跨部會的部分會做一些統籌來進行這個符合這個實際情況的一些推演、想定,然後來如何進行一個演練,然後來驗證"},{"start":7212.466,"end":7212.786,"text":"國防部會會協助想定"},{"start":7240.876,"end":7264.527,"text":"那尤其剛剛部長當然也談到說我們國防部的這個漢光同心萬安演習比方說它在7月那涉及到民防災防的民安的演習5月那涉及到CIA防護的精華演習在9月那以我們這個不同的演習不同的演練其實在不同的時間裡面都可能會讓大家錯估了其實可運用的人力的這個問題"},{"start":7265.908,"end":7291.05,"text":"所以我說部長在這部分當然我知道部長現在也很努力想要來把這些可能綜合的情境去做一個總體的評估尤其是人次上評估但我們在這次的質詢裡面也希望讓部長可以知道說這個想定一天沒有辦法做一個更清楚的釐清其他部會能夠去做的相關的動員計劃他很可能就存在的高度的不確定"},{"start":7291.87,"end":7293.551,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":7310.375,"end":7329.908,"text":"同心萬安跟民安要一起結合來做規劃那軍火演習的部分比較是屬於這個重大人為的偽安或者是恐怖攻擊的一個演習他比較可能可以分開但是民安萬安同心這些我想我們現在仍然在規劃的階段會整個通販檢討這個這個我們一個實際的一個場景來實切的來統合規劃"},{"start":7337.793,"end":7348.681,"text":"部長這個通盤檢討我們有看到當然看到這一次在委員會開完以後你們有說你們會綜合的來評估大概什麼時候會有一個三個月可不可以如果一個規劃的報告三個月"},{"start":7350.091,"end":7374.687,"text":"我據我的理解現在已經是在正在進行討論當中那個內政部也會提出一個計畫出來然後我們會提出一個想定出來然後國安會會做一個討論所以這個想定的綜合規劃辦理我可不可以請國防部3個月的時間給國防外交委員會一個報告可以嗎"},{"start":7378.487,"end":7397.374,"text":"我們有一個公開版的想定我想這個可以提供可以吧公開好那我覺得我們要從透過這個想定來作為一個評估依據的基礎那再來一件事情是我想再問部長部長在這個全社會防衛任性委員會上面其實有提到所謂40萬名利"},{"start":7399.315,"end":7426.263,"text":"那我知道現在有些媒體一直想把這40萬名利把它去講成說啊你是不是要搞什麼全民皆兵啊等等等等這件事我覺得在委員會我還是想先問一下部長就部長所知這40萬名利可能會從什麼地方來我知道主管機關可能是在內政部但是就你知道這個所謂40萬名利跟現在媒體可能想要或者有些有心人想要去詮釋成"},{"start":7427.923,"end":7455.6,"text":"全民接兵這中間的差別是什麼或者他從哪裡來他是民力不是民兵是這是第一點第二點內政部應該是會結合疫警疫消還有替代役那因為現在民防的組織能力有老化所以必須要引進替代役的人力是然後再結合疫警疫消然後再建構一個社區的防護隊等等這樣子的一個概念來建構"},{"start":7456.701,"end":7482.693,"text":"所以這個這40萬名利假設我們招募得到的話那它跟國軍的工作要打仗的工作之間是會有什麼差別我要說這個說法目前已經在很多民間包括有些媒體有些人在操作這個事情流傳我在這邊想提醒的事情是我覺得國防部應該要重視目前大家正在流傳的這些訊息這裡面到底所謂40萬名利差別民防跟到底跟"},{"start":7483.874,"end":7503.876,"text":"剛才說被講成全民皆兵之間有什麼差別?因為我們本來根據民防法的相關規定就是要有建構一個應該要有的民防組織、民防團隊嘛那還在結合相關的疫警、疫消等等的那這些民防團隊現在有很多在操作面上是有值得檢討的地方"},{"start":7504.236,"end":7530.71,"text":"所以就必須要就這個民防團隊的這個組織訓練等等要加以要如何來強化那這個時候替代役的這個部分就會加入那這個那另外當然還有其他的疫情影響那最主要的目的就是在建構一個社會在面臨緊急狀況之下的一個國家的韌性那這個讓政府持續運作"},{"start":7536.013,"end":7550.645,"text":"我自己是建議說國防部或者應該跟內政部一起對於這些所謂的民間的力量 民力也好民防也好到底接下來會用在什麼地方它的功能會是什麼那它會希望聚集大家來處理什麼樣的問題"},{"start":7552.006,"end":7570.082,"text":"我覺得這部分希望也可以加強跟社會的說明不要讓大家誤會說你這個是全民接兵還是什麼這個軍閥團練之類的這種事情我覺得現在確實有些人刻意要去操作這件事情我要麻煩部長要特別留意這個訊息是好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝洪森漢委員部長請回"},{"start":7576.926,"end":7585.95,"text":"待會林儲委員質詢完畢之後先休息5分鐘然後我們下一位請徐曉欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席那我們有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":7613.742,"end":7625.006,"text":"部長好,我們剛才有提到美方的雷神採購但其實我們軍方跟雷神採購的裝備裡面我想詢問是否有一筆台幣182億元的愛國者三型PAC-3的飛彈重建建設案"},{"start":7636.147,"end":7643.717,"text":"這是一個檢測案,那我想這個檢測案的這個內容主要是不是先…可不可以簡單說明?對,簡單說明先。"},{"start":7645.665,"end":7662.57,"text":"報告委員我們這個愛三重建車案主要是愛國者飛彈它使用10年之後我們的導引斷件必須做更換來確保它可以發揮原本的效能所以它是一個維修費的案維修費用對不對但是根據今天媒體的報導國防部最早規劃這個採購案本來是整體的愛國者飛彈採購案是1791億餘元"},{"start":7669.952,"end":7690.204,"text":"那在預定2021年的時候結案那呢軍售結餘款本來應該要繳庫的但美方要求182億元結餘款不要繳庫那所以呢空軍的這個防空指揮部呢就擅自跟美方簽發了這個架書最後呢以說好買好的飛彈數量沒有買夠用這筆錢來補買"},{"start":7694.326,"end":7719.285,"text":"修訂為愛二性能提升及採購愛三的續購案以補充原彈藥的不足數將全案延長到2027年結案請問是否有此事?這個是不實的所以今天媒體的報導是不實的消息從建設案是一個新政案新政案而且報立法院審議通過至於愛三的剩餘的決議款是我們拿來徵購"},{"start":7721.467,"end":7725.352,"text":"這個徵購案也經過立法院審議通過所以兩個事情是不同的"},{"start":7726.243,"end":7747.649,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍�"},{"start":7750.99,"end":7778.367,"text":"沒有所謂的空軍防炮指揮部先講後奏擅自與美方簽約空軍司令跟國防部長事先不知道就建案作業的事情這個程序上的瑕疵是有的有所以確定有這件事對這個當時這個也已經被糾正了被糾正了對但是事後補齊了相關的文件之後呢暴力法院立法院也審查通過所以這182億元後來如何處理"},{"start":7781.89,"end":7793.124,"text":"這182議員就是按照這個相關的程序把它完整之後報到立法院,立法院也審議通過了。審議通過那如何懲處?相關的名單有多少人?應該有懲處啊。恐軍有沒有?"},{"start":7795.948,"end":7816.461,"text":"報告委員,這個案子向委員報告,這個案子國防部在一開始出現消息的時候,我們就已經召開新聞記者會進行說明那接下來我們也到監察院來進行相關的調查跟詢問最後的懲處結果是如何的?空軍副司令以下相關人員都受到懲處"},{"start":7818.178,"end":7821.923,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":7836.881,"end":7857.668,"text":"外界另外也很關注賴總統在8月份的時候在新進將裡面看到三軍統帥沒有立正好像不高興但其實外界說是總統府的一位女性官員請大家坐下所以導致的誤會想請問一下部長那位官員是誰?誰請大家坐下的?"},{"start":7858.708,"end":7880.954,"text":"跟委員報告我當時到場的時候並沒有看到那其他的新晉將領文你沒有去詢問瞭解這個狀況我瞭解請問是誰請大家先坐下來委員好這個一開始就是總統是好意希望能夠在進任典禮完之後辦一個茶會然後這個好意那個總統給我們的資訊是總統你的誰給你的資訊是交際科"},{"start":7886.955,"end":7907.421,"text":"對他們的一個女性的專員專員一個專員跟你們講你們都坐下來他們跟我們協調是說在一個溫馨的一個場合沒有嘛我是想問說是誰請你們坐下來誰告訴你們是一個溫馨的場合大家可以坐下的那個專員名字我沒有特別去記所以是專員的層級他的職等是幾職等的"},{"start":7908.786,"end":7934.319,"text":"我想并沒有：我的理解並沒有說要如何：因為這個是事先在移植的這個溝通上面可能有所不足所以並沒有說哪個專員就要當時現場在場坐下我是很疑惑就是說一個專員那他來溝通然後大家就覺得專員講的意見能夠代表總統那就坐下來了引發這一系列的誤會"},{"start":7935.459,"end":7960.471,"text":"所以請問不是郭雅惠發言人也不是辦公室主任陳奕霖兩位都不是我想剛剛已經說明了我並沒有避免剛才那個右邊那這位知道是誰跟你們溝通的這兩位都不一定吧我們確認一下而已前一個禮拜我們就在跟總統交際課做一個心跳交際課的哪一位"},{"start":7960.831,"end":7961.611,"text":"所以你們一早進去就先坐下了?"},{"start":7981.682,"end":8010.067,"text":"原本就是坐在裡面等總統所以說這個裡面的我們跟總統府這個溝通可能我們有疏失沒有特別去強調說總統府進來就要休息所以你們一走進來就坐下了沒有人跟你們說要坐下大家都先坐在裡面了然後總統就直接走進來所以看到總統沒有站起來不是因為總統府的科員專員請你們說要坐下是你們自己決定的沒有這樣的就是說沒有看到有這樣的事情"},{"start":8010.607,"end":8027.423,"text":"所以是你們自己決定的應該是說雙方對移程的這個第一次辦這個茶會對移程的這個進行或者流程的進行沒有一個衝...跟我跟軍人的這個瞭解非常的不一樣那因為我還有很多其他的問題要問"},{"start":8028.604,"end":8030.226,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":8045.907,"end":8062.404,"text":"擁有放颱風架的決定權這是第一句第二、戰爭不分颱風影響與否為因應兩岸之間隨時可能發生的戰爭情勢應該要取消颱風架請問部長你覺得第一種說法比較合理還是第二種說法比較合理"},{"start":8065.397,"end":8088.905,"text":"第一種是呢颱風來襲的時候按照氣象署的數據提供的建議由地方首長來決定是否放颱風架第二種說法是戰爭不分颱風架影響與否因應兩岸可能發生的戰爭歧視情勢應該要取消颱風架這兩種說法第一種跟第二種部長您覺得哪一種說法比較有道理"},{"start":8089.585,"end":8090.706,"text":"所以你認為颱風價對於台灣來說是否有必要性嗎?"},{"start":8113.368,"end":8138.274,"text":"對我們國軍來講我們颱風來的時候可能對於可能的遭害我們都會做兵力的預置裝備裝備的一個預置然後我們也會一級開設你認為颱風架對於民眾對於如果沒有放颱風架的話那民眾在外面可能會有更多的風險對於國軍的救災行動來說會不會增加更多的難度跟風險跟人力的投入"},{"start":8139.213,"end":8155.87,"text":"我想我們對於是不是放颱風架這一點我還是在強調這不是國防部夜館的部分不是我能夠回答的沒有我問的是對國軍來說如果沒有颱風架那國軍會不會投入更多的資源因為沒有保護到人民的安全"},{"start":8157.989,"end":8184.477,"text":"國軍就是投入救災這個是我們的中心任務之一所以我不知道委員問的意思是說有真的颱風來了然後沒有放假還是說沒有颱風來了然後放假真的有颱風來了沒有放假就是真的颱風來了不放假這件事情"},{"start":8186.062,"end":8206.487,"text":"真的台灣來沒有放假那我想各地方政府首長在決定要不要放的時候都是在考慮國人的生命安全的問題來我們看一下可是呢我們總統府狹下成立的新單位全民認防衛社會任性委員會裡面總統清點的曹新成顧問以他的專業在社群網路上面發表評論他說"},{"start":8208.327,"end":8227.92,"text":"從全民防衛任性的觀點來看要取消颱風架因為如果繼續放颱風架以後全民都要進西中營進行勞改這明顯跟您剛剛的觀點是不一致的請問我們老百姓是要聽您的還是聽我們顧問的我想對任何個人的發言我們都表示尊重所以他是顧問啊"},{"start":8229.693,"end":8231.976,"text":"國軍在太光演習遇到颱風的時候是如何因應的?"},{"start":8245.211,"end":8266.227,"text":"我們事實上這一次也真的遇到颱風。是的。我們去年也遇到颱風。是的。那我們要是颱風的一個狀況就改成就變成轉換任務為救災。對嘛。那做一級開設啊。是啊我們很支持。所以我們雖然是遇到颱風那我們改成防災救災任務這也是我們一貫的傳統我也很支持。"},{"start":8266.767,"end":8293.504,"text":"但是呢這跟我們任性委員會的曹顧問的方向邏輯完全不一致對他來說轉成災害救災任務那是不是以後也要進集中營類似這樣的方式我覺得呢如果類似這樣子的顧問跌床駕屋的說法反而呢會讓我們的國防任性所謂的全民國防任性產生更多的困擾那部長你知不知道任性委員會裡面總共有哪些顧問跟哪些委員"},{"start":8295.679,"end":8311.226,"text":"我想我那天有參與開會但是我現在詳細的名單不記得了但是我要說明的是我想任何人都有他表達意見的一個自由那確實有很多國家是沒有颱風架這個概念我同意因為有些地方沒有颱風當然沒有颱風架這不廢話嗎"},{"start":8312.887,"end":8339.946,"text":"但我想知道的是因為日本的緯度比較高所以日本的颱風對他們的影響是比較小的這個是有嗎?有這是非常確定的你去問日本的專家日本的緯度比較高所以他的這個日代氣旋往上的時候日本最近好像受了很多颱風沒有沒有你去問日本的颱風是比較小的那我另外要問再給我一點時間40萬名利這件事情請問法院依據是什麼?"},{"start":8341.368,"end":8364.281,"text":"四十萬民力這個有相關主要來自於民防法的相關的規定那民防法第二條告訴我們除了救災以外有沒有包含民間自衛跟支援軍事勤務的部分就這個現行的民防法它現在的規範是如此是如此的所以暫時會否轉為民兵"},{"start":8368.064,"end":8386.095,"text":"沒有,因為我們現在沒有這個讓人民擁有武器的這個權利那在戰爭時期的支援軍事情務的定義是什麼就是比如說我們有一些民務力的需要有一些需要動員那要如何自衛"},{"start":8387.714,"end":8410.063,"text":"民間自衛跟支援就是情義自衛跟自救自救跟救人自救跟救人所以他要自己能夠自救然後同時如果他可以發展出像類似有EMT-1甚至EMT-2的能力那我們是不是在民防法裡面應該要寫得更清楚一點"},{"start":8410.723,"end":8431.914,"text":"我想這個民法法的規範也已經相當久了啦,應該是可以來...好,那我們最後一個問題喔,40萬名利是由誰來指揮?全社會任性防衛委員會、國防部、內政部警政署、民防指揮所、國安會"},{"start":8432.774,"end":8452.78,"text":"在這四個相關聯的部會裡面請問這40萬的名利在暫時是由誰來統一做指揮跟委員報告因為到了如果有任何緊急狀況的時候會成立中央聯合應變中心那基本上名利的部分是由內政部來主導來進行調度好 謝謝謝謝徐小新委員部長請回"},{"start":8463.615,"end":8467.498,"text":"接下來請王定宇昭偉上台質詢謝謝主席麻煩部長請副部長另外我們站規司黃司長"},{"start":8486.311,"end":8500.29,"text":"部長我還是要問一下雷神的案子但是基於國家的利益、台美的默契以及我們相關保密的要求如果涉及機密不宜對外公開的那你可以直接表達這不宜回答這個我會尊重"},{"start":8501.411,"end":8524.314,"text":"畢竟納稅人還是要關心我們遇到什麼樣的狀況那因為雷神是很重要的系統商在世界各國包含美國自己本土包含台灣合作的項目非常多涵蓋了水面下水面以及陸地空中很多的項目所以雷神其實是一個重要的合作對象"},{"start":8524.975,"end":8551.447,"text":"那這一次爆發出來所謂的惡意台價或者以美國司法部所講的涉及的相關不當的詐欺的情形那我以下詢問的題目我是希望透過你的回答讓國人瞭解發生什麼事我再強調一次不宜公開的不適合講的部長就直接說這個不適合公開本席會予以尊重第一個這一個所謂的台價"},{"start":8552.708,"end":8555.789,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":8575.006,"end":8596.748,"text":"所以這個案子就這個案子雷神是跟我國直接簽約嗎我們是跟美國政府簽約軍售案就所以我們是跟美國政府簽約美國政府跟雷神簽約所以美國政府本身也美國陸軍也是採購方那他可能有好幾個國家一起在這合約裡面我這樣詮釋對還是錯"},{"start":8599.732,"end":8625.151,"text":"所以他這個是一個三判關係應該是A跟B簽約B跟C簽約我們的對口就是美國政府所以美國政府要對我們互完全的對我們不是直接對雷神至少這一件案子上面我們軍售案都不是直接對廠商對廠商是商售我待會會問一下商售的防備機制接下來"},{"start":8626.331,"end":8635.797,"text":"就目前美國司法部通知我國這個事件是涉及單一武器系統還是多個武器系統還是不便回答"},{"start":8637.489,"end":8660.274,"text":"我想這個部分就不變回答。不變回答。因為這個跟我後面問的有關係。那我看媒體有報導,你有回答說這個案子根據美國司法部調查是從2013年溯源找到了跟台灣有相關的情形。所以是2013年開始,但是我們不能說是哪個年度。他說2013年開始的相關的案子。"},{"start":8662.998,"end":8685.959,"text":"我剛在機密專報裡面報告了我想我就不再好那美方主動告知我們因為你剛才講的這是一個軍售漢所以美國必須對品質及和各方面履約條件要負完全的責任我們就是buyer他要向我們負責嘛這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛那我請教部長就是說就軍售案"},{"start":8687.196,"end":8706.329,"text":"在這個事件當中因為我們用莫非定律來講如果你有一個兩個三個四個或者一個你有台價的情形我們有沒有去回顧至少雷神相關的案子的軍售案有沒有類似的情形第一個我們有沒有這樣做第二個是我們有沒有能力這樣做"},{"start":8707.389,"end":8724.123,"text":"我想要美國的政府會來全面的來展開所以美國政府會全面的review所有雷神對美方軍售案的相關案子有沒有類似的詐數?美方應該會進行我們有沒有要求?"},{"start":8724.804,"end":8753.899,"text":"呃..."},{"start":8757.287,"end":8782.177,"text":"沒有能力就沒有能力因為我跟你買東西像我去買一台車車商交給我了我根本無法預先知道你在車廠掉了三個零件或者是液零了沒有能力預知不見得是不好的事情因為我是買方嘛就好像我們去跟經銷商買了一輛車子它的製造過程有沒有問題不是我buyer可以看到我現在只是詢問在軍售案上有關軍售這個模式"},{"start":8783.177,"end":8800.684,"text":"台灣有沒有能力注意處理或了解到異常現象沒有辦法是沒有辦法的所以要靠美方就是我們簽約方他還去做相關的集合我們大概應該是只能根據國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析這個是我們能夠"},{"start":8802.505,"end":8831.323,"text":"軍事裝備與日俱新他換了一個裝一個裡面的零件就告訴你這是model 2你很難去做比價啦所以美國他有多層的一個美國的audit美國的這一個集合其實坦白講蠻嚴謹的啦對他從成本的這個這個審核那就有好幾層的機制那後來到後面的這個集合的機制履約過程上然後他也也有也有多嚴密的保管"},{"start":8831.997,"end":8858.363,"text":"有關這次雷神這個案子是美國國防部就軍方集合主動查出來的對美國的是美國軍方查出來的不是司法部調查出來的嘛對是主計局嘛審計局他等於主計人他做audit的時候查到了嘛然後他查到之後他往前溯源到2013年去查各國相關的情形所以美國的集合制度是能夠找出這樣的問題"},{"start":8859.443,"end":8887.41,"text":"好那我現在問了因為軍售是美方採購向我們負責那他自己要跟簽約方負責他要去做audition這是他的問題那我們軍購還有另外一個模式叫做商售商售就沒有經過美國政府了當然我期待我們的主計單位我們的審計單位也像美國國防部的主計審計單位一樣的堅實一樣可以把它review可以把它找出來我現在請教商售的部分我方如何做審計"},{"start":8888.735,"end":8916.39,"text":"有沒有能力有沒有能力去找出這異常的現象我想我們商售的程序會根據這個收集做一些商情的訪查包括這個他們的報價的資料跟一些採購的價格我們會加以分析然後我們根據這些相關的分析之後我們應該要有一個進一步的一個"},{"start":8918.366,"end":8918.628,"text":"已就証券"},{"start":8920.799,"end":8948.224,"text":"就這些比價的這個就是說要相關的一些多管的這個商員進行一個比價的一個程序我請教黃師長或者主席許長或者是採購師採購師這邊因為軍事裝備的採購你像我們最近要送到台灣的M1A2T它就一個T model它後面多了一個電源箱就是它要有一些型它不是每一個國家同樣的武器裝備長得都一樣"},{"start":8949.964,"end":8972.097,"text":"我現在的問題其實很簡單軍售部分美方向我們負責他要去做集合嘛那我們商售的部分其實量也不小那商售的部分我們國防部有沒有能力做相關的集合查核是本委員報告其實我們商購只要簽約以後我們要求的就是一定要履約督導一定要防場查驗"},{"start":8973.258,"end":8994.497,"text":"包含防火產業包含它的製程包含它生產的這個它的用料是怎麼來的整個這個相關的我們都要去查驗就合約會要求他要對我們負責對我們透明嗎這是我們自己要來做那我你還是沒有回答問題就是以這是雷神被美國軍方主動查核出來的狀況如果發生在商購上我們會不會發現"},{"start":9001.839,"end":9019.24,"text":"我坦白講我是期待因為美國司法部也許這個案子整個到一個段落之後他會公佈所有report我第一個出於國家利益的好奇我們應該去了解他到底怎麼查出來的"},{"start":9021.32,"end":9039.908,"text":"這怎麼去找出這個洞來的那我們國家有沒有類似的情形我們能夠把這個洞亡羊補牢嘛所以部長我這一趴要問的意思就是說軍購當然我們就要求美方我們是拜爾但商購的不能變成我方的採購我方的集合主計相關要負相關的責任"},{"start":9041.149,"end":9055.261,"text":"那我們在我們現有的制度上有沒有能力去查出這樣的案子或者有沒有不足的地方我們可以補強的他山之石我們可以來借用嘛部長對這事情怎麼看法"},{"start":9056.65,"end":9073.499,"text":"我想我們從這個案子裡面可以看得出來相關的這個成本的分析是重要的這是第一點那第二點就是說同一個品項我們應該可以找到不同的商員來進行比價的這樣的一個程序"},{"start":9074.179,"end":9091.847,"text":"然後到了履約的過程當中我們會同這個省監單位來做審查加強這個集合內控的機制那我們可能也應該要進一步會同律師跟會計師來做進行相關的這個來查核來協助來進行這個查核"},{"start":9095.669,"end":9117.364,"text":"商購或我們國軍採購不管是軍備局或各單位的採購齁這個集合方式的部分這個SOP的流程這應該不算機密嘛齁這應該可以揭露讓我們知道就你們怎麼去查核這些事情的那個流程啊我不是講內容你們怎麼去查核這個流程的我們才能從你的流程當中站在國會監督的角色我們可以去看哪一個步驟"},{"start":9118.365,"end":9144.678,"text":"可能這個部分要強化一點或哪個步驟想得太美好了根本做不到這個流程能不能公布給我們知道我們來進行這樣子的一個流程的檢討然後再跟委員做個報告那我接下來一樣跟著這個問題問就是我們一直想要扶植國內的軍工業所以本席在我印象第9屆第10屆我們通過了國防產業促進條例那國防產業促進條例之後我們就有各種品項"},{"start":9147.58,"end":9164.513,"text":"認證認證之後他就成為合格供應商而且我們採購流程是國內有認證的經過軍備局啊我們相關單位認證的優先採購是邀標喔然後呢如果他沒有或者他不投標才能公開招標我們有個流程去扶植國內的產業那我現在問一個問題哈在過去我們國軍採購的時候如果"},{"start":9169.477,"end":9193.965,"text":"尤其是美製的比較早期的武器裝備有原廠授權的大概都不用不用再討論了一定是用他的那現在原廠授權的跟我們國內經過驗證的你說他叫A貨或者那就是他有能力做出來也經過驗證了這兩個在採購上順序的優到底是美國原廠授權優先還是國內產業驗證優先哪一個優先"},{"start":9199.384,"end":9225.676,"text":"專科院來回答一下吧委員有產發條例之後只要是通過我們產發驗證然後經過我們驗證性質符合的是以我們國內的為優先我最後提醒就是說我們有一些比方說我不舉特定品項了有一些早期美方供應我們的裝備以往我們的軍事採購就是美國原廠授權打死了就是他優先沒有話講因為他原廠的嘛可是我們現在有國防產業發展條例之後"},{"start":9227.617,"end":9246.049,"text":"本土的廠商經過驗證證明這能力的話他取得了認證資格這個是有法律地位的過去那個原廠授權的那個是默契行為所以這個李院長這樣講是對的就是說在法律上這個是優先但是為了保護我們國軍要取得品質好"},{"start":9246.909,"end":9275.816,"text":"而且經過市場的競爭我們才不會被當冤大頭嘛所以我是建議國防部這裡也應該盤點一下我們國內現在還用的也許要是早期的已經有些裝備零組件台灣廠商在做了但美國原廠也有還在做我們也應該要求美國原廠說你也來申請驗證你懂我意思嗎尊重我們國家法律除非他放棄了這塊市場他不要了我們的飛機啊我們的戰車啦我們有很多都是"},{"start":9277.577,"end":9294.749,"text":"對世界上來看他是比較早期的東西所以零組件現在有偽製廠商會做但是美國的原廠或者歐洲原廠他也還會做所以如果我們現在產發條例變成本土產商驗證優先原廠授權的反而排在後面的時候"},{"start":9295.469,"end":9295.489,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":9324.709,"end":9336.896,"text":"謝謝王定宇、趙偉部長請回等一下林楚瑩委員質詢完畢後就先休息五分鐘然後我們接下來請林楚瑩委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席有請顧立雄部長"},{"start":9349.808,"end":9353.751,"text":"部長早安,首先我想因為風災,剛剛有委員問到颱風價,不過我覺得在這裡還是要代表本席來對我們所有國軍弟兄,不論是在這一次"},{"start":9372.603,"end":9376.027,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":9389.346,"end":9391.947,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台美國軍火商雷神對台美國軍火商雷神對台"},{"start":9420.202,"end":9438.554,"text":"各作戰區的狀況不一致我昨天才到高雄跟屏東那我的我到現場之後他們也提出來說像今天還是需要相關的兵力來協助是這個因為因為南部的是風"},{"start":9439.975,"end":9440.435,"text":"大型機工具的調度嗎?"},{"start":9470.231,"end":9494.005,"text":"對。所以這個相關的部分都投入了很多。那北部的部分的話應該是雨、大雨、風。那雨的部分的話在相關的包括基隆、金山萬里等等的一帶也投入相關的兵力。那到昨天為止全部投入的兵力大概是6769人次。大概是這樣。"},{"start":9496.627,"end":9518.761,"text":"6769人次所以非常感謝我們這些國軍弟兄們真的是展現了這個軍民一體的精神不過剛剛我為什麼用這個來起頭是因為我相信這個再多的感謝都不如實質上面的給予國軍弟兄包括加薪又或者是夜點從60元提升到100元還有像休假的補助啊慰問金等等"},{"start":9519.541,"end":9531.847,"text":"再來就是巧複難為無米之炊啦我相信更重要的就是我們要有好的國防的戰力的同時武器當然也要精進包括我們的有新增了一些建案一共114年度也就是明年有"},{"start":9534.628,"end":9536.109,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":9554.525,"end":9570.524,"text":"最新的訊息公布我們也將有高達5.69億美金史上最大的這個所謂的援助包括我們的軍備等等但是我們都知道現在114年度的總預算就是卡在程序委員會裡面是根本還沒有進來做實質審查"},{"start":9572.546,"end":9581.353,"text":"我剛剛講了這麼多先不要說後續的這些所謂的軍購或是新增的建案單單給國軍遞充的這些包括明年3%的加薪又或者是夜點的提升我們知道颱風秋台是非常可怕的但是你無法預測這是為什麼這一次三坨颱風造成這麼讓人無法捉摸而又這麼大的招"},{"start":9595.725,"end":9600.908,"text":"我想部長您身為這個國防部的部長的時候預算現在就是如果卡住的時候那國防部到底有沒有辦法調節難道說60變成100的夜點如果真的預算在今年度沒有過的時候我們真的不增加不調帳嗎又或者是國軍弟兄這麼辛苦來協助救災那麼明年3%加薪就真的要被擋住嗎"},{"start":9620.319,"end":9648.315,"text":"部長,現在就我們現有的裁員當中因為總預算被卡住的話有沒有辦法可以做調解?這個部分是不是請主計局來說一下?委員好,我是主計局局長有關114年度的預算如果沒辦法順利過的話當然我們的新增案剛剛提到的69億的軍頭新增案是沒辦法執行其他的新增的計畫剛剛提到的有關夜點費調整這一塊也當然是沒辦法去執行的"},{"start":9649.074,"end":9654.818,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．"},{"start":9664.145,"end":9686.9,"text":"國防部能夠跟藍白的立委來做說明因為弟兄真的不能餓弟兄也因為辛苦當然包括有關於這些新增的不論是新增的建案又或者是軍售其實本席去找了資料本席不是這個國防或武器相關的專業但是如果根據我的了解的話所有的新增建案它有非常多的節點"},{"start":9687.981,"end":9703.888,"text":"也不是預算編了就馬上可以買到相關的武器那這些都是要按部就班的一個拖延我剛前面很多的專業的國防委員們都在詢問那就是包括我們的武器什麼時候要來包括我們跟美國的採購什麼要來每一個相信"},{"start":9707.168,"end":9722.736,"text":"只要一個節點有任何的延遲就會影響到後續那這個我相信不論是部長又或者是組織局一定都會非常了解那這個部分就請你們能夠要多再跟藍白立委來多做說明那另外我要"},{"start":9723.636,"end":9741.811,"text":"延續剛剛講到雷神的部分同樣的如果說是已經報導過的那就不算是機密所以本席會從媒體的角度來看這個事情就是這中間的操作是不是太巧了甚至於每方都主動調查但是卻被操作成中間是台灣變成潘娜我們來看這個報導是在"},{"start":9745.894,"end":9749.897,"text":"六月四號的時候那麼你去詳細閱讀這篇報導的時候你會發現他只提到了中東的合約而且這個合約是2011年到2013年那麼再提到有一案是2017年的那麼關於這樣的整體的行為"},{"start":9761.304,"end":9768.186,"text":"其實是美國的納稅人多繳了錢跟台灣都沒有任何的關聯在這裡也沒有特別的去提及台灣可是為什麼在10月1號這一天有一個像內容農場一樣的網站開始針對雷神案扯到台灣的軍購而且用不明確的信件來定調台灣變成攀納變成冤大頭如果是媒體照理說本席以前在媒體工作過"},{"start":9790.751,"end":9819.711,"text":"像這樣重要的外電我們大概就算沒有第一時間有時間差格格24小時之後它也會被翻譯出來但是像這種經過了3、4個月之後而且是特別在10月1號中共國慶的時候來出現我就想要就教過去也曾經有在國安會經驗的部長您認為這會不會是一個假訊息的以美論的操作因為這一切的連結其實也非常的詭異"},{"start":9822.18,"end":9842.08,"text":"我在這邊我想因為剛剛已經做過機密專報我在這邊能夠說的就是說這個的確是美國主動調查之後來主動告知所以如果美國把我們當盤子或者是當鎧子的話美國就不會主動調查而來告知我們"},{"start":9842.68,"end":9858.606,"text":"所以我們只是要強調這一點就是說美國有它一個蠻嚴謹的一個機核的機查的一個作業模式那這個是他們主動去機查出來的一件事情那當然也不只是牽涉到我國"},{"start":9860.426,"end":9879.304,"text":"美國本身自己也都受害那所以相關的這些這個這樣子的一種主動調查主動告知而且主動表示要償還無收的這些費用的我想我們只是在強調這一點美國並沒有把我們當盤子一樣的盤子或當盤子一樣的"},{"start":9883.368,"end":9885.03,"text":"部長其實我會提到這個部分是因為其實從這個訊息對外釋出之後他所要形塑的會不會是一個認知作戰在裡面呢因為從剛剛也有委員講到的就是這個總統的查會的部分媒體的報導的時間點"},{"start":9899.542,"end":9917.454,"text":"再從剛剛的這個案例再到之前其實更早曾經有出現就是國防部用坦克各軍種然後有一個所謂的南海工作會議的記錄後來被北檢證實是假文件我要強調的是其實在"},{"start":9918.394,"end":9939.183,"text":"國防部或者是軍事相關的內容跟機料跟自密當中其實確實都存在著可能被做認知作戰的部分那對於反制假錯訊息其實國防部也有提出說會有立即查證損害評估澄清與反制然後網路溯源跟因應那我為什麼會特別把這個講放在一起講是因為部長從剛剛我們講到的雷神案出現了內容農場"},{"start":9947.166,"end":9963.1,"text":"擴大或者是過度的去解讀雷神案再到我們看到這一次總統茶會講說將官因為沒有站起來起立所以總統震怒發脾氣罵人甚至到摔資料這種都是過度的解讀而透過網路然後媒體"},{"start":9966.243,"end":9994.392,"text":"去放大之後再回收到更早之前2023年的這一個所謂南海工作會議記錄都被北檢證實是假文件的時候那麼可以感受得到是在利用這種資訊的落差的認知作戰其實是在持續當中那麼如果說國防部也寫了一個報告會對於網路的錯假訊息會有反制那麼我就想問那麼剛剛我所提到的幾個例子除了這個南海工作會議是有經過"},{"start":9995.953,"end":10020.49,"text":"告訴然後認證是假的文件大家知道這是假的就算是真的專業的媒體也會出現假消息的時候那麼之前往前推不論是南海的這個會議之外包括總統的查會雷神案那麼國防部有沒有也啟動了網路錯假訊息的反制又或者是調查呢"},{"start":10021.682,"end":10049.108,"text":"我想這個部分我們政戰局都會來就這個網路的錯假訊息來進行查證之後然後未來立即澄清跟反制這個是我們應該要做的事情那當然整個一個認知作戰可能是涉及到一個跨部會的議題所以我想很多的這個錯假訊息的立即應處我們也都需要跨部會的協作這樣子"},{"start":10049.668,"end":10072.759,"text":"所以說剛剛我們提到的我們知道像這個南海工作會議它確實是比較明確的就是以所謂假文件來做處理了嘛那其他的因為沒有一個文件出來但是我剛剛特別提到就是雷神案它也是有一個洩露不明確的信件來做定調那這個部分國防部會不會用假錯訊息來做調查呢?"},{"start":10075.873,"end":10094.105,"text":"我現在只能夠說這一個報導本身就是有剛委員所提到的他的一些謬誤跟誇大之處所以我想我們這個部分才會立即來做一個發新聞稿來做一個說明這樣"},{"start":10094.465,"end":10115.462,"text":"好,本席希望呢就是除了說明跟澄清之外這個是不是有線頭可以去追而是有特定的所謂認知作戰在裡面尤其是時間點上的調和可以先暫時不對本席公佈但是我希望你們在更進一步了解之後來為我們提出一個相關的報告好嗎?好,是好,謝謝謝謝謝謝林楚芸委員部長請回那我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":10143.558,"end":10156.026,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、"},{"start":10175.765,"end":10185.832,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":10210.834,"end":10210.854,"text":"順序"},{"start":10250.127,"end":10262.413,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":10281.613,"end":10283.859,"text":"國防部長報告一、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售"},{"start":10294.464,"end":10305.329,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":10312.535,"end":10334.694,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為，並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為，並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為，並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為，並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續"},{"start":10370.077,"end":10371.75,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神"},{"start":10402.892,"end":10412.604,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":10469.7,"end":10471.902,"text":"請大家就座,我們準備要開會。接下來我們請陳永康委員上台質詢。"},{"start":10498.627,"end":10515.848,"text":"我們請顧部長。請顧部長。是,陳委員。部長好。我想還是在軍售案的過程中間,我提出一些建言。是不是請站規司長跟採購事主任一起。"},{"start":10521.733,"end":10538.475,"text":"在機密的報告裡面聽到了跟有一部分東西的作業流程跟我現在提的是很接近那我就點到為止我們只是表達對目前的幾個關鍵性的問題第一個就是美國的"},{"start":10539.978,"end":10562.735,"text":"國防部的安全合作局跟他各部門的關係這裡面每一個都有文件的論述我希望我們部裡的同仁對這個東西能夠做一個更深入的瞭解因為剛才很多同仁都在提到是不是查閉是不是哪個單位發現其實在這個作業流裡面我提出一個建言"},{"start":10563.696,"end":10590.403,"text":"為了避免以後再發生這種比較不理想的現象或者是媒體的誤解我們可以請站規師法律師採購室我們在國防大學這個管理學院我們辦一個短期兩個禮拜班把過去有經驗的老師甚至我們前一陣子駐美的一個退休的法治官他在回台灣了他都是很有經驗的那麼在上面做一個兩個禮拜的這個"},{"start":10593.399,"end":10614.077,"text":"三、強化性的教學對現職的或者未來準備參與這個作業的同仁這是一個很棒的一個流程那麼這個可以解免很多的誤解甚至避免外面的一些誤判這個圖是所有跟DSEA相關的美國的這個部會那這個圖裡面每個單位的工作職都有"},{"start":10615.779,"end":10638.993,"text":"這張圖裏面就是我們現在只強調的是國防安和局承辦業務然後各軍有自己的對等單位剛才在簡報司長提到了但是只是帶過去他真正的就是下面有一個controller一個等於說他一個審計長的辦公室他是副等於說助理是次長級的"},{"start":10640.094,"end":10646.058,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。三、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":10666.859,"end":10681.341,"text":"團隊提出希望軍售也能有一個公和在美國軍售的採購作業規範是沒有公和的但是我們國內要求公和但是公和的比例是多少呢?case 不同"},{"start":10682.557,"end":10710.302,"text":"那怎麼做呢?如果你要攻核假設10億你說10%那就是加1億這1億美國國防部是不管的就把這1億變成我們簽10億的約負11億的款把那1億轉給廠商了但這個廠商給你合作的計轉計協分配下去呢又變成美元點所以這個裡面就變成有些落實有些不落實那美國廠商對攻核外包的東西"},{"start":10711.308,"end":10738.294,"text":"美國國防部不在乎這個時候又產生了如果我們是單一採購案或者是二度採購案或者是加入其他國家幾個國家的採購案這裡面要不要分攤當年這個案子的研發成本這個叫做sink capital或non-recurrency那這個東西每個case都不一樣如果這些案子我們在國內的是掌握不住的"},{"start":10738.934,"end":10760.971,"text":"那能不能由駐美軍事代表團的採購組他有律師顧問定期啊除了配合我們國內的訪團去督察以外要跟美方的這個DCAA要多做溝通而不是軍售官跟DSEA做溝通那這兩個案子啊如果你把它放在一起看的話就產生了一個"},{"start":10762.678,"end":10783.308,"text":"軍售因為要攻核所以就外加外加款是國軍付錢但實質在美軍外加款是轉包給他的合約廠商這個合約廠商能夠給我們的寄轉寄協或是部分分工變成美元點美元點在過去有一半"},{"start":10785.069,"end":10813.103,"text":"給我們的軍備局給中科院有一部分就直接分給工業局就跟我們國內的廠商在這個細節裡面有很多東西是定義不清的不是誰對誰錯的這個時候如果我們的律師、會計師在這個細節裡面沒有從開始先律定而只是從軍事單位各軍種的業務流裡面去提出你的需求這個地方細節我們就看不到了"},{"start":10813.723,"end":10841.889,"text":"所以這個裏面這一段錯誤不在國內只是誠意甚高要把法律上要求軍售要有公和於是產生了一個額外追加預算增加的預算但美軍說我不管你這一段增加我就直接包給合約廠商那這個裏面一個案子如果做10年10年的公和禁忌有多少那等美軍的DCEA再來審查的時候也許在裏面就發現有一些"},{"start":10842.569,"end":10844.351,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售"},{"start":10863.41,"end":10886.392,"text":"不管是LOR他出處的一個參考架或是到後面要簽LOA這個裡面的項目項次非常多200項300項那這個呢我們是希望國內將來能夠細部審查而不是軍種單位提出申請他看這個我要我要我要就全包裹收了那這個東西能做好"},{"start":10886.852,"end":10915.374,"text":"我認為在往後的軍售案以美國這麼多年它的軍售案是不賺不賠但是履約督導是DCAA我們要去配合不是光DSEA所以我剛才提出的建議就是我們開一個短期班請我們過去有一些有經驗的有法制的有採購的替我們同仁上課或者是未來有機會加入的這個同仁做一個上課以上是我做一個建議"},{"start":10916.135,"end":10922.386,"text":"另外一個就是有關的商售啊商售我們都要求公和可是如果是國軍軍備局來買"},{"start":10925.06,"end":10927,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":10953.723,"end":10957.227,"text":"是臺川公司。臺川公司簽這個約的時候合約細節裡面的但書"},{"start":10960.811,"end":10990.811,"text":"．．"},{"start":10990.811,"end":10992.632,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":11014.906,"end":11017.307,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":11042.794,"end":11068.902,"text":"並沒有人要擋國防預算那麼我們是希望看到國防預算每一分錢花在刀口上而且為國家國家安全為社會能夠奠定一個更好的基礎包括民間的產業那剛才有一個談到就是希望變成美國的供應鏈要加入美國的這個協會其實過去您曉得就是說你要加入條件是你要做國內的滴滴嘛"},{"start":11069.522,"end":11089.676,"text":"你現在根據美國的標準我們國內很多廠商是不合格的就像你剛剛講的廠設施要隔離專案要隔離這個安全設施要照美國的標準來驗收而不是我們國內廠商或者一般委員想像中只要登記就入門入門就變成供應鏈這個我希望找機會部長那邊能夠幫忙做個說明"},{"start":11092.602,"end":11115.15,"text":"跟委員報告吼,那個攻核的這個部分呢,現在我們就採事後攻核,也就是說之前我們,事前,因此它計轉的這一個部分呢,有時候跟我們要買的這個武器相關的這一些關鍵技術有關,所以我們現在是採事後攻核,也就是說我們要求這個廠商要"},{"start":11116.63,"end":11138.147,"text":"要認定他願意移轉相關的這些軍事我們要採購的軍事武器相關的這些關鍵技術的這個部分放在整備數裡面我們才會願意做這個公和的點數如果他沒有同意的話我們現在原則上就不再接受這個用公和的點數來增加我們的國防預算那就這個部分"},{"start":11138.587,"end":11160.422,"text":"那旅業督導的部分剛剛應該也提到了確實這個部分我們也還有在精進的空間那我想剛剛委員建議的就是說我們如何來加強這些整個軍售也好或者商購也好或者是關於旅業督導相關的這個精進的流程我們會再來檢視然後再來"},{"start":11163.644,"end":11177.845,"text":"看看還有什麼地方可以再精進那甚至可以跟美方來進行這個就是說在共同來檢討有關相當缺失尤其經過這一次的事件之後"},{"start":11180.825,"end":11199.302,"text":"謝謝部長。那站會司司長是不是您補充做一個說明,就是說後面我們這個東西大家如何共同的來精進。關於那個強化我們建案跟採購人員技能的這個部分,我們會納入後續我們建案的利益培養跟相關的規劃去辦理。"},{"start":11200.885,"end":11218.094,"text":"那有關於剛剛委員指教的軍售跟商售集合的這個問題,我們下去之後也會配合法律師跟採購師這邊來做一個通盤的檢討。好,謝謝。我們大家共同努力。謝謝部長。謝謝委員的指導。好,謝謝。謝謝陳友康委員。"},{"start":11239.594,"end":11243.861,"text":"我們下面請林委員來發言林永鈞委員發言謝謝主席有請部長"},{"start":11256.949,"end":11279.291,"text":"林委員好部長好剛剛前面質詢的委員每一個人都關心一樣的問題但似乎好像都沒有得到一個非常正面的回應所以本席想要再請問一次最近新聞報導美國雷神公司軍售台灣紅台價格這件事情然後國防部在前幾天的新聞稿有提到"},{"start":11280.352,"end":11307.78,"text":"這個訊息是由屬性特殊的內容農場結合中國75週年國慶時釋出的操作移美論的跡證很明顯所以本席這邊想要請教部長你知道這件事情最早是哪家媒體開始報導的嗎?後續又是哪些媒體跟進報導的?我的了解是最早當然是在6月份是彭博社報導"},{"start":11310.686,"end":11329.222,"text":"是,部長這件事情其實是今年6月份的時候你說的沒錯首先是有美國知名的媒體彭博社報導然後後續連華爾街日報也有報導那請問部長美國這兩家世界知名的媒體他們的報導新聞也算是內容農場嗎?"},{"start":11330.623,"end":11359.923,"text":"如果連美國政府都在為我們台灣報不平說話了那為何我們的國防部自己還不願意坦誠向國人說明清楚呢那難道心虛了嗎還是真的有隱情還是有什麼貓膩不敢說呢還有請問國防部當初是否察覺價格有招哄台還是根本就沒有察覺一直被蒙在鼓裡完全都不知情還是直到美方通知之後才發現的呢"},{"start":11361.004,"end":11374.942,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛已經在機密專案裡面報告了當然是美方主動告知那我們之所以沒有對外透露的話主要原因當然就是美國認為司法程序還在進行當中"},{"start":11377.004,"end":11391.337,"text":"沒有透露相關的細節。據台美的默契跟雙方對這個因為還在司法程序進行當中表示就是說我們就這個部分先不予回應這樣子。"},{"start":11392.708,"end":11416.479,"text":"好,那如果是像剛剛部長說的是美方通知我們才發現那為什麼新聞稿還是要反駁說是內容農場的不實指控呢?你們國防部的發言人所謂的美台軍售制度有非常嚴謹的防備設計這個事情是否就不存在呢?因為根本就是依賴美國政府的防備制度然後出事了才被動等待通知"},{"start":11417.96,"end":11433.042,"text":"國防部在軍售防備措施上根本就毫無作為依照這件事情來判斷那國防部都已經知道自己被當盤子和凱子了那為什麼像小媳婦一樣不敢講話呢還是被要求不能講話請問部長這件事情你們有沒有覺得很委屈"},{"start":11434.363,"end":11449.771,"text":"我跟委員報告,因為他報導的方向跟彭博社報導的方向是不一樣的。他一直在裡面講說,意思是說好像把他拉成是這個雷神在騙我們。"},{"start":11451.152,"end":11470.077,"text":"．"},{"start":11470.465,"end":11473.786,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":11488.351,"end":11504.181,"text":"的法律會計集合這個責任的都是美國政府不是雷神公司所以我們才會說他這樣的報告方向是有點在誤導這個所以我們才會說這個有他認知作戰的這個一面"},{"start":11506.437,"end":11524.987,"text":"我們面對的是美國政府那因為美國政府有完我們認為一直以來他都有他本身建制的一個關於成本價的一個分析然後關於這個事後旅約的相關的督導然後乃至於這個集合的這個流程都有"},{"start":11526.507,"end":11543.472,"text":"當然我們日後會在因為基於這個案子是當然不罕見那我們會再跟美國來做這個軍售制度相關的這個這個再做好好的這個交流那剛剛陳永康委員也已經知道我們會在這部分再做精進這樣"},{"start":11544.392,"end":11562.266,"text":"我再請教部長一下就是對於這些所謂被轟台價格的裝備有哪些還有根據本席辦公室詢問國防部的說法回覆是說就像那個部長說的是透過與美國政府海外軍售管道也就是FMS但是現在因為眾說紛紜甚至有些人都認為是透過DCS購買的"},{"start":11566.869,"end":11581.891,"text":"所以才趁機台價那本席研究一下感覺流程好像又不太像商售的管道購買的裝備那部長是否可以在這裡跟大家說清楚一樣究竟具體大約是哪些裝備是透過海外軍售還是商售管道取得的"},{"start":11583.827,"end":11599.321,"text":"跟委員報告我想就這個部分我們是軍售的管道這是可以肯定的是跟美國政府來簽的具體的項目剛剛已經在專報裡面已經報告了我想我們就不宜在這裡再透露過多的細節這個還請委員見諒好不好委員剛剛也在場有聽到"},{"start":11602.624,"end":11619.699,"text":"過去有幾項比較重大的軍購弊案確實都是在走直接商售管道上面發生所以我想請教一下部長就是你知不知道未來有哪些軍購是走商售而且比較龐大的譬如未來的潛艦國造是準備走哪一個管道"},{"start":11620.259,"end":11639.905,"text":"因為這個是今年最大筆的新興計劃。因為光這個預算就新台幣2840億了。也就是全國的人民都是非常在意這個重大的計劃。是不是有想要回答這是機密的?我想潛艦的部分當然是一個比較特殊的案例。這個部分是被海軍先說明一下。"},{"start":11641.506,"end":11641.526,"text":"海軍參謀長"},{"start":11655.462,"end":11675.971,"text":"因為美國政府對於單一的一個整個潛艦的一個輸出他比較建議我們採取一個商售的方式來處理但是有關武器的部分我們走的就是一個軍售的方式來做那我們走商售的部分會按照我們原型艦的一個部分會有一個設立一個專門的編組"},{"start":11677.452,"end":11677.632,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":11705.754,"end":11705.774,"text":"戰鬥系統"},{"start":11715.029,"end":11737.627,"text":"那未來七艘後續艦的各項的主次系統是不是也應該走商售從不同的管道取得呢?尤其現在這一次雷神的事件發生尤其是現在的聲納這項非常重要的裝備就是雷神公司的產品嘛聽說還有戰鬥系統跟系統整合目前聽說也是美國的落馬跟雷神兩組的人馬在競爭"},{"start":11740.421,"end":11763.826,"text":"因為這個我們整個預算爭取現在正在一個程序之中那詳細的部分我們有這個作戰需求後面會依照我們原型艦隊戰鬥系統還有相關的一個採購一個流程那我們會強化跟法務還有跟這個機合跟整個防備還有這個保密條款部分也會這個逐步來一個落實跟完善"},{"start":11765.561,"end":11784.582,"text":"所以這邊提醒部長遣件國照其實這個是非常龐大的預算對台海防衛更是非常關鍵的影響所以軍事採購其實涉及巨額的預算這是跟人民的納稅錢是非常有極大的關係所以全國的人民都是非常在意這個問題的"},{"start":11785.643,"end":11812.961,"text":"所以國防部一定要趁這一次的教訓可能沒有查價是沒有審查機制要趕快檢討如何針對商售管道建立更加嚴謹的防弊機制可以嗎是我們會透過上進訪查比價跟選商的作業然後針對各個的這個不同的這個可能的商源我們會來做一個審慎的評估這樣子"},{"start":11815.363,"end":11832.545,"text":"我再來再跟部長請教一下就是這次舉辦的台美國防工業會議中我們國防部的徐衍璞副部長也有受邀演講他發表的演講裡面有提到台美國防工業要共同合作產生生產一些內容"},{"start":11833.606,"end":11858.633,"text":"本席這邊除了要呼應台美國防工業應該要深化合作促進共同生產之外我們也應該跟美國爭取更進一步的在地化維修或翻修例如我們F16D對性能的提升案就是一個實質在地執行成功的案例後續不管是新購或者是現有的是否持續爭取更多的在地維修的量能呢?"},{"start":11859.642,"end":11875.418,"text":"空軍F16是,各位委員好,我是空軍的參謀長。F16性能提升的工業合作技術轉移部分,我們早千年都已經開始在執行,現在也正在執行。"},{"start":11878,"end":11891.085,"text":"現在F16的維修中心也已經在我們國內成立了那我們在未來也會積極爭取更多項的這個維修項目在我們國內來產生工業合作以上報告那我想請問一下部長你認為未來還有哪些領域是台美國防工業可以進一步合作的呢?"},{"start":11906.618,"end":11911.042,"text":"您說共同生產或者是在地化的部分嗎?"},{"start":11912.831,"end":11942.059,"text":"當然我們現在主要共同生產、共同研發或者是授權生產這些部分的話我想當然是以無人載具這個部分最有可能那其他的一些維修的話我想我們都會爭取因為比如說像這些我們即將獲得的這些戰車系統等等在維修我想我們也努力爭取能不能夠進行在地維修、計算能夠在地維修這樣子"},{"start":11942.239,"end":11958.28,"text":"因為我最近有聽到一個消息就是美國同意考慮讓我們台灣組裝次增飛彈真的有這回事嗎?部長覺得我們成功爭取次增飛彈在地生產的機率會多高呢?目前沒有這方面的目前據我所知目前沒有這個項目"},{"start":11961.852,"end":11961.872,"text":"好。謝謝。"},{"start":11992.284,"end":11995.747,"text":"謝謝林委員。下面請陳冠廷委員發言。"},{"start":12019.787,"end":12027.446,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續"},{"start":12054.002,"end":12078.926,"text":"好,謝謝趙薇,那我們請部長有請顧部長還有站規室的黃師長陳委員部長好,師長好剛才王定委員的質詢裡面有提到說軍售案上台灣也沒有能力進行查核處理或者是了解異常的現象那黃師長剛才的回覆斬釘截鐵沒有辦法"},{"start":12079.79,"end":12089.124,"text":"但是我後來又聽到部長說可以靠歷史採購價格的分析是指過去有這樣做現在有這樣做還是未來會用這樣子的方式去做"},{"start":12092.882,"end":12109.759,"text":"報告委員所謂針對歷史價格的分析我們做的是在和美方簽訂合約之前沒有沒有市長你剛才說沒有辦法那是顧部長回應說可以靠採購的價格分析所以這個部分是不是部長可以簡單跟我們講一下這是未來我們要採取的作為嗎"},{"start":12111.15,"end":12138.275,"text":"對,我們在這個跟美方簽約之前的話我想我們會就這個收集國內外歷史的採購價格我們會來做一個分析然後來強化我們跟美方來預約的一個能力我們會來試圖來看看不過基本上來講跟站位司長講的也沒有抵觸因為他的內部因為我們簽約的是美國政府"},{"start":12138.775,"end":12154.66,"text":"美國政府跟這個廠商之間的一個成本的分析事實上是他們內部的一個資料我們只能夠就我們所理解的這個相關的國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析之後那跟美方做一個說明這樣子"},{"start":12156.741,"end":12177.051,"text":"此次是美國防合約的這個審計局發現這樣子的問題那所以他們是內部稽查有發現這樣的問題那所以說跟我們讓我們知道那未來我想我們是跟美國政府再去打交道的那我們不是因為這件事情來去擔心說未來可能會面臨到問題我們是想要知道說在我方"},{"start":12177.651,"end":12177.851,"text":"重建這案"},{"start":12208.35,"end":12234.673,"text":"從建設案：您講的是那個：今天稍早有說公軍防空指揮部與美方先行簽約這件事情從建設案這個部分當然當時是緣起當然就是因為說這個裝備特別是導引的部分那已經借齊了那借齊的部分就要進行一個斷件的更換"},{"start":12236.314,"end":12260.029,"text":"那最主要是在程序上的時候那時候應該是那個他先行發出這個發價書那這個程序上他這個發價書發出的時候沒有先行知會國防部這因此程序上產生了一個瑕疵那這個是程序上的瑕疵但是事實上這個重建車案要先編預算然後要經過立法院通過這個是還是必須要完備只是他當時他發出發價書的當下這個因為這個預算是超過了"},{"start":12265.872,"end":12266.733,"text":"接下來今天我們有提到這一個"},{"start":12289.212,"end":12310.474,"text":"三、「台美國防工業研討會議成效的相關部分：現在已經有制度化的一些對話機制,包含上半年在台灣舉辦的台美國防這個產業論壇,還有下半年在美國舉辦的美台國防工業會議。這是一個非常重要的軍事平台,我們也很高興說今天有特別把這個我們這次的委員會"},{"start":12310.854,"end":12332.883,"text":"的會議裡面把它專案報告把它放入裡面去但是我還是希望就是說包含我們的蘇防國防外交委員他們能夠知道的內容因為我們都有派員去參與能夠不是只有說副部長在發表的演說的重點是什麼而是跟我們知道說我們未來的趨勢是什麼就是更實質一點的一些文件跟我們分享一下"},{"start":12333.083,"end":12360.116,"text":"你不用到文件就直接跟我們分享說在這次裡面趨勢是什麼台灣國防我們現在每次我們跟其他國會議員在討論的時候他們都會問到一個問題就是說那你作為國會議員現在台灣最需要的系統是什麼裝備是什麼服務是什麼那這個東西我在今天的專案報告裡面我看到說非常大的標題但是一些細部的這些項目我們還是希望說未來能夠給我們讓簡報給我們讓我們更能夠理解"},{"start":12362.737,"end":12379.009,"text":"這樣的狀況因為隨著我們地緣政治台灣的地緣政治的這個局勢是越來越險峻那再加上這個供應鏈的狀況所以當然我們跟美國之間的合作是越來越重要包含這個烏克蘭的戰爭以壓衝突等等這些武器的庫存等等"},{"start":12379.85,"end":12409.164,"text":"每方一個國家是沒有辦法足以面對三個不同的區域上面的衝突的所以我們自己的這些產業鏈、供應鏈都必須要被除但是我們同時又很仰賴對美的軍售所以說現在已經累積的金額已經205億美元所以如果能夠爭取到美國的軍售品項在台生產那當然是可以某種部分來減緩軍售延宕的問題這些在台美的工業相關的討論有沒有在包含在裡面"},{"start":12411.434,"end":12433.328,"text":"這次確實有討論,因為剛剛的報告裡面也提到了,是有涉及到這個部分。但是具體的、詳細的項目,因為這是一個公開的報告,所以我們跟美國國防部的官員或者相關的官員所具體討論的這個內容的這個部分可能"},{"start":12435.25,"end":12454,"text":"沒有,屬於避免的。我想詳情的部分可能不太適宜公開來說明。但是我現在能夠說明的就是說,因為有關於特別是涉及到無人載具這個部分,美國的方面,"},{"start":12455.501,"end":12471.232,"text":"根據這個吳克蘭的經驗他認為說在地的自主能量的生有具有這個能量來自主生產這是一件很重要的事情因此他特別重視在無人載具的這一塊那所以才會"},{"start":12472.933,"end":12473.073,"text":"好,謝謝部長齁,這個"},{"start":12499.554,"end":12518.659,"text":"會談裡面有病人的會議當然這些就可能比較不方便說出來但是在一些細節上面說我們需要什麼樣的這樣子的服務我們現在目前供應鏈台灣的優勢跟我們的缺失在哪裡哪些是我們可以透過跟美方的合作來去增進的我想這一些部分是未來可以來去談的"},{"start":12521.44,"end":12546.442,"text":"剛才提到的這個不管說無人機也好或者是這個其他的相關的這些做法我看軍用無人機的這個臺灣適合的參入的市場已經有達到170億美元所以說現在我們加入美國的工業已經不是只有軍方講軍方的事情而已它是有長大的商機在裡面可是我們的中小企業不管是說你說這些材料或者是說零件重要的部品"},{"start":12547.262,"end":12569.584,"text":"還是有遇到一些挑戰嘛這些挑戰當然首先是資安風險嘛這個我們有沒有辦法符合CNNC的資安的這個認證機制還有台灣廠商的能力跟意願我們的廠商或許是中小企業他願不願意長時間大規模大產量的去生產符合這樣子的供應鏈的做法"},{"start":12569.964,"end":12598.624,"text":"這也是有風險啊就是說他們要不要擴廠他們要不要徵聘人員來去符合美方的要求來去美方的資安要求來去確保我們的clearance有辦法達到美方的這樣子的要求這其實都是需要大量的資本去完善它的所以我想請問部長其實也不只是國防部而已啦這些部分台灣軍工產業的廠商我們能夠提供什麼樣的協助比方說是代廣"},{"start":12599.663,"end":12622.434,"text":"協助廠商引進這個設備來擴大產能還是更多的單一窗口協助中小企業跟美方接洽還是針對國防產業的關稅減免不知道部長針對這個部分有什麼樣的意見跟看法現在出席的部分當然就是說我們跟國科會經濟部還有說法部我們建立一個平台那這個產業呢它規模現在"},{"start":12626.536,"end":12626.836,"text":"國防部單一"},{"start":12655.906,"end":12676.203,"text":"國防部擔心我們的需求在平時的階段,我們的訂單就只到這個程度為止,然後後續怎麼辦呢?所以這個整個供應鏈要能夠形成,那這樣供應鏈能夠形成,它才有那個意願,然後願意擴大它的產能。"},{"start":12680.471,"end":12695.502,"text":"這樣的持續性的部分就是美國事實上也看得出來所以他才會提出這個打入供應面的這個部分那所以我們一方面講白一點就是說國防部要協助來根據我們的作戰需求來幫忙這些產業"},{"start":12698.764,"end":12712.833,"text":"另外一方面透過跨部會的協助來給它進行補助進行研發另外我們要輔導他們能夠盡量通過CNNP的認證然後另外我們要想辦法就是說這個供應鏈的生態系要能夠建立起來這樣才有持續性"},{"start":12719.958,"end":12746.831,"text":"謝謝部長其實你講到這個生態系那在我們的民雄航太園區最近剛好我們中科院院長也有來到我們辦公室有談到那什麼生態系的做法我還是很肯定中科院它特別是在我們的園區裡面會設置一些大型的測試的場所這些大型的測試場所它可以應用的範圍就是讓這一些廠商中小企業也好它能夠省去一大部分的投資在R&D上面因為它已經有完整的測試場"},{"start":12747.831,"end":12774.273,"text":"所以規劃能夠某種程度對軍工產業共通的這樣子的測試的場所我想這是在過去在美國也有嘗試過那也就是我下一個問題可能會談到的就是DIU的運作DIU其實也不是只是一個所謂的小組他是也是要打造整體的生態鏈所以在DIU的部分裡面我還是要強調他們還包含可以租借國家的實驗室所以他是"},{"start":12775.314,"end":12803.269,"text":"你現在想像的不是一個小組而已他是在應用美國整體國家的各個不同的部門的國力那我還是要請教那我們知道美國的DIUS尋求技術成熟程度是到1到3的部分可是我看到我們國防部的創新小組所尋求的是7到9的成熟科技我想請教為什麼我們跟他的不同的地方為什麼要做這樣的區分為什麼我們跟他們在這地方不同"},{"start":12804.969,"end":12825.787,"text":"我想應該應該要我們DIU的這個部門美國的DIU應該也不是1到3那就是1到3不好意思我們這有經過他們的那個是屬於DAPA的這個部門您的資訊上面DIU他們trial不管是這一個readiness他們就是1到3那我們的話是針對"},{"start":12827.268,"end":12827.929,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售協議"},{"start":12846.447,"end":12869.483,"text":"經濟部的學研中心計劃讓各大學的學研中心來做一到三的 readinessness那我們希望尋求的是產業界能夠去發展四到六這個部分七到九再由我們國防部來投入好謝謝謝謝院長那我就要了解了謝謝是謝謝陳冠廷委員部長請回"},{"start":12874.147,"end":12889.735,"text":"接下來我們請耐氏堡委員上台質詢。謝謝主席。有請顧部長。請顧部長。是,老委。先轉一個題目。這個"},{"start":12902.793,"end":12928.441,"text":"你上台以後強調說不講第一集啊你叫自衛權自衛權有共軍如果攻擊國軍在航機建設室等攻擊台灣的本島、外地島未經許可進入12里、領空、領海現在有一個大家外界有關心的一個題目"},{"start":12930.302,"end":12957.199,"text":"美國的國會議員特別有提到這樣的概念就是中國大陸如果發動對美國的網路的這個攻擊攻擊他的基礎設施等同宣戰我請教顧部長我們中華民國這個地方我們對於老共的網路攻擊我們要不要"},{"start":12958.755,"end":12974.21,"text":"也是用這樣的一個概念要不要apply到上面的時候如果他攻擊我們的基礎設施特別很多專家都在講啊其實老公要打台灣不需要真的軍力打他只要癱瘓了我們的基礎設施、電廠"},{"start":12976.712,"end":12979.154,"text":"所以網工如果攻擊到基礎設施請問部長你要不要把它視同為選擇"},{"start":12998.271,"end":13019.206,"text":"各位委員報告,這個罔攻我們的基礎設施,而且癱瘓我們的基礎設施,特別是關鍵的基礎設施,那比如說我們的電,我們的水,讓它整個癱瘓掉的話,那就這個部分我們認為它是一個重要的預警的徵喉。"},{"start":13020.086,"end":13040.964,"text":"就如同俄羅斯在對烏克蘭之前他在進行這一個進入到政治作戰的階段之前他也大量的去進行罔工來試圖癱瘓這個關鍵基礎設施所以我想這一個部分各國都把這個東西視為一個非常重大的一個爭吼"},{"start":13042.825,"end":13063.118,"text":"那我記得應該是那個美國吧拜登他對於破壞這個由從西岸到東岸的那個油管的那個整個的設施拜登也講了重話說對於這樣子的一種癱瘓這樣的一個基礎設施他沒有辦法能夠容忍"},{"start":13063.598,"end":13092.022,"text":"那我想我們這邊的話對於這個癱瘓我們這些很非常關鍵因素是我們會作為重大的一個預警徵口的一個項目來視為它是不是有後續的這一個相關的行動你還沒有回答問題啊算不算宣戰你問等於宣戰還是說宣戰潛重可不可以這樣講我現在只能夠說我們會把它作為一個非常重大的一個預警徵口來做研判不等於宣戰"},{"start":13095.975,"end":13105.952,"text":"他這樣某程度宣戰喔,就等於打了嘛,直接來講的話打的話,世界法輪大用這個幫你癱瘓就等於打了,那不是嗎?"},{"start":13107.401,"end":13125.276,"text":"我現在還是回答這個委員的問題就是說我們會把攻擊我們的關鍵基礎是視同一個重大的疫警徵喉因為他如果對我們做這樣的一個攻擊他一定會有下一步的一個行動的可能性那我們的反制是什麼?"},{"start":13126.308,"end":13155.1,"text":"我們的反制當然我們就...委員網路攻擊反過來要抗爭attack是不是?要不要?你好我是中天應常務長是向委員報告有關於這個網攻部分我們有我們自己的這個國防的治安的一個協防的團隊那針對戰爭...你講這個聽不到啦時間快到了你不要跟我講一些五四三我就問你你怎麼回應啊我剛剛就舉例有沒有"},{"start":13155.88,"end":13183.676,"text":"那他網工我們網工他們啊有沒有這個能力我問你有沒有這個能力我們有沒有這個能力報告委員這個是我們有我們的機制在我們有沒有這個能力啦談判他們的基礎設施有沒有這個能力請問你部長我想我沒有辦法在這裡回答這樣的一個好那請問你中國他的網軍有沒有能力談判我們的關鍵設施有沒有"},{"start":13185.67,"end":13208.671,"text":"我想我們也有足夠的應對他癱瘓我們這個相關的關鍵基礎設施的一個協防措施跟治安的防護系統存在他要癱瘓我們也不是那麼容易的所以他做不到是不是我只能夠說我們一直持續的強化我們的治安防護能力在這樣情況之下請問你外界很關心的"},{"start":13209.622,"end":13234.902,"text":"我們國防部特別你在任內有沒有可能要成立資通電軍就是第四軍組或者俗稱的網軍正式編制有沒有這樣的規劃也不能講它是網軍吧不是那個網軍這個網軍不是那種網軍我們已經有資通電軍了有嗎有啊有編制嗎有啊有多少人我就是常務長"},{"start":13238.476,"end":13242.261,"text":"你們多少人呢?多少人?我們現在整個的編制大概6千億了"},{"start":13243.007,"end":13272.099,"text":"六千多人那很多大陸多少人大陸他是一個兵種那不是還沒有成為軍種但是有相當程度的不太一樣啦不等於第四軍吧你如果按照國軍的術語來講的話他是不是軍種他是一個兵種我要請問你那是底下的嘛我要問的是陸海空王這個是不是這個意思還是通"},{"start":13272.919,"end":13277.64,"text":"最後一個問題我想大家今天關心的這個題目這是這一次雷神的事情美國司法部已經判雷神要賠2億5美金了"},{"start":13297.987,"end":13324.653,"text":"我們大概可以獲得多少對不對我剛才聽你在回答其他委員講的是我們軍售然後呢我們都是跟美國政府好像你沒有辦法任何作為他賣你貴的你就吃了怎麼樣大家都知道台灣買的都是幾乎全世界最貴的然後你就是一句話國防部長就一句話因為對的是美國政府所以言下之意就是我們毫無談判籌碼是這樣子嗎"},{"start":13327.101,"end":13349.843,"text":"我想跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說美國政府本身也向這些公司購買武器所以美國有相當嚴謹的這個價格分析的制度也有相當嚴謹的集合制度所以如果說雷神把我們當盤子那如果你用同樣的道理那美國政府也不可能容許雷神把它當盤子我想這是第一點第二點"},{"start":13351.324,"end":13370.028,"text":"您這裡面提到說有關稍後部要判雷神賠多少錢多少錢這些有關這個部分的內容不盡詳實那我剛剛在精密專報裡面已經報告了那我想這些部分我們沒有辦法在這裡做公開的透露要請委員能夠理解美國還沒有告訴我們最後的這一個可以結案的時間點"},{"start":13380.894,"end":13393.182,"text":"另外一個在這裡面的就是他高報的這裡面有個案子就是愛國者飛彈1792億後來結一款182億美國人不給我們然後後來就叫我們再追加買他的愛國者飛彈這個事情你剛才已經講了這是違反相關的程序你們的防空飛彈指揮部"},{"start":13408.305,"end":13410.086,"text":"愛國者飛彈的剩餘結衣款我們要增購"},{"start":13429.477,"end":13444.982,"text":"那就這個徵購案我們是在徵購你講是182億這個嗎不是182億是那個重建策案那個是新編的預算至於愛國者飛彈剩餘的結一款剩多少剩多少269億我們徵購愛國者飛彈那這個部分也暴力法院同意我同意我們就這個案子來續行徵購這樣子這兩個是兩件事情請委員瞭解"},{"start":13459.068,"end":13481.337,"text":"最後還是一句話你剛才就一推奧巴伊胡說因為是軍售不是商售面對的是美國政府美國政府就相信他所以我們就沒有任何的智慧的餘地大家都覺得說買貴了買貴了因為軍售政府對政府你一點批量都沒有變這個樣子外面感覺國防部可以做一點事情"},{"start":13485.239,"end":13507.224,"text":"我想美國國防部本身也都是在跟這些軍工產業在做這個……是啊,你的言下之意就是相信美國國防部嘛,就變這樣而已啊。你就沒有角色啦。我們面對的是國防部、美國的政府。美國政府要對我們負完全的責任。阿你跟美國政府有沒有討價、討價還價的空間嘛?我問你這一點嘛。"},{"start":13509.963,"end":13520.857,"text":"我們剛剛已經講過了如果說就國內外的這個歷史採購的這個價格那如果說有偏離的一個部分的話我們跟美國會進行交涉"},{"start":13522.445,"end":13524.205,"text":"我們希望能夠在今年的第四季能夠到"},{"start":13548.53,"end":13549.211,"text":"接下來我們請林國成委員上台質詢。"},{"start":13584.864,"end":13607.038,"text":"好,謝謝主席。請顧部長。請顧部長。是,林委員。好,顧部長。說實在,從你上任到現在,文人部長當然有文人部長的風範。"},{"start":13609.318,"end":13633.786,"text":"但是本席在這裡特別有些我肯定有些我是不以為然因為我是當過兵的人我也知道軍中的風氣跟習慣所以有些當然可以用文人部長的立場去做文化的各種的改革"},{"start":13634.714,"end":13652.511,"text":"有些是真的軍事的部分是不太用文人的思想去做改變這一點我想我特別要勉勵部長沒有指責的意識但是軍中之事部長責任重大這"},{"start":13654.315,"end":13679.887,"text":"保衛國家部長責任非常之重大但是我從早上到現在我看到我們部裡所有的將軍們在答詢問題的時候今天我看每一個我們立法院同事啊他來做執行的時候就是有兩種也就是我們經過的問題"},{"start":13682.108,"end":13693.357,"text":"也就是大家一直在講我們是潘啦潘啦事實上來講我們有不得的苦衷有些當初"},{"start":13694.42,"end":13722.138,"text":"我們要買到武器我們就覺得心安理得但是有些確確實實在整個經過的價格方面確確實實我們也難以開口但照單前收這個部分我想經過這麼久以來我們要從探討從引清風案件到現在已經二十幾年"},{"start":13722.998,"end":13747.893,"text":"二十幾年問題就是什麼?用金的問題嘛那這些以少報多或以多報高這個我們都不要談但是用金的問題是合理但是有些事情是一個制度出問題所以從我們這個國防部這個雷神這件案子"},{"start":13749.589,"end":13774.371,"text":"從現在埃國哲這些後面的182億這豐豐益益我也不見得說一定要相信媒體在這裡的指責但是今天所有的委員都一直在執行這些我的歸納、我的理解特別提供給部長做參考這不是一個制度的問題嗎"},{"start":13775.652,"end":13793.189,"text":"部長你針對這些我固然不問你說是真是假是否我們有失職可是最起碼的話身為部長一定要了解這個到底是環節在哪邊出問題部長針對這兩個愛國者的182億還有"},{"start":13799.735,"end":13803.656,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":13819.984,"end":13847.842,"text":"跟委員報告第一點就是說跟美國的軍售沒有佣金這個問題存在因為是跟美國政府直接簽約的美國政府是根據他的這個跟廠商所取得的報價資料保定保定我是非常誠懇針對問題佣金的問題當然也不要去使這個天經地義美國本來就有這個制度只是美國沒有這個制度"},{"start":13848.522,"end":13869.07,"text":"沒有這個制度美國沒有這個制度美國沒有這樣的軍售方面沒有這個制度至於委員講的那個182億可能是另外一個事情就是有關那個愛國者未來的重建策案那這個剛剛已經都回答過了就是說他因為這個導引的相關斷件他到期了以後他要逐步更換"},{"start":13869.75,"end":13895.931,"text":"所以這個愛國者飛彈的重建策案呢就要編的這個預算是要來做更換這個導引等相關的斷件那這個部分呢是也後來文件補齊之後也報告立法院是做一個新建的一個部長你這個已經跟委員解釋過我了解了我了解我現在問你的花生這個問題"},{"start":13897.572,"end":13920.361,"text":"是否跟整個制度有問題我要問你這個問題有沒有發現到是制度的一個問題要不要改變制度的問題您說改變對這整個包括採購包括整個那個和審這整整包括什麼支付的經費等等是不是這裡有出問題"},{"start":13922.047,"end":13945.521,"text":"軍售的這個部分的話我們必須跟美方在密切的這個溝通來如何加強這個有關於如果說這是一個詐欺的這個案件的話那因為經過這個事件之後我們當然要跟美方做一個溝通協調了解是在哪一個環節上面然後因為這是美方主動集合察覺的嘛是吧所以美方"},{"start":13946.181,"end":13973.027,"text":"主動集合察覺的這個點在什麼地方那我們等這個調查成功告一段落所以啊,那個部長所以我在這裡啊以我個人之前線基本上這整個就是我們在經過過程當中這裡面的機制問題要去改進跟加強改進跟加強所以提供給部長你去做參考"},{"start":13974.107,"end":14000.785,"text":"這個有沒有必要重新去研擬一下在這個整個機合制度是否出問題才會產生這些種種的猜疑跟矛盾所以本席是提供給部長去做參考你仔細因為你仔細去參考一下這個是不是在這個制度去吃問題那另外一個我又用簡短的時間再來請教部長"},{"start":14002.042,"end":14016.52,"text":"也就是明年的我們的阿兵哥的額度是減少的尤其我比較在乎的也就是離島跟外島的兵力部長為什麼要減少"},{"start":14018.598,"end":14039.634,"text":"跟委員報告沒有減少,沒有減少這個有關相關的預算的顏額,那個我們事實上如果說,因為我們現在已經開始實施一年期的EWE了,所以如果你將志願役的顏額跟EWE的顏額加起來的話,外導的這個顏額是增加的,並不是減少。"},{"start":14040.643,"end":14048.652,"text":"沒有沒有沒有,我這裡的數據,你們給我的數據,這個延額是離島減少,所以這個部分我特別提供給部長,為什麼會減少,離島減少主要的原因,這個當然啦,因為"},{"start":14060.965,"end":14078.002,"text":"你可能底下給你的這些數據我們有種歷年來來做比較的話確實我只擔心的不要放棄離島不要放棄外島因為兵力的戰力是非常重要的"},{"start":14078.422,"end":14102.182,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們預算顏額跟這個現元過去預算顏額拉了比較高一點所以有些人員的維持費並沒有用掉那我這一次是希望他們能夠務實的編列就根據現元數來做一個比較務實的編列所以大家會以為說因為預算顏額的減少而好像這個編制人數或者現元減少但事實上實際的狀況應該是我們預算顏額過去可能"},{"start":14105.464,"end":14121.436,"text":"與世界的緣故編得高一點,那我們現在把它做一個比較務實的編證。是啦,因為部長,因為我們最主要是發現問題提供給你做參考。但軍方的事當然以你為主。但是,立法委員發現到這個問題,我們蠻擔心的,不能放棄離島,不能放棄外島。"},{"start":14127.216,"end":14143.056,"text":"我們牽涉到我們的軍事戰力的問題沒有人就沒有戰力所以我特別要提醒部長你怎麼樣去調配我想我們都尊重但是我們發現這個問題再度提供給部長去做參考"},{"start":14143.757,"end":14161.563,"text":"因為你需要保護中華民國的所以我們怕你一時的散失然後撕掉離島撕掉外島這是划不來的好不好所以沒有我想謝謝委員指教我們應該沒有大減這個外離島的這個緣額的問題存在我們只是將"},{"start":14166.385,"end":14167.786,"text":"我們請黃國昌委員上台質詢。"},{"start":14204.778,"end":14231.486,"text":"謝謝主席,然後有請部長有請部長呃,黃岩好部長好,早上緊密報告裡面有關於雷神公司轟台軍售價格的部分我想部長態度已經表明得很清楚配合美國政府的進度把台灣該要的錢要回來我想這個態度基本上是正確的"},{"start":14232.817,"end":14261.193,"text":"只不過說這個雷神公司除了烘台價格以外他涉及到的我看美國的公開資訊這不牽涉到任何機密的問題我比較擔心的是他違反出口管制規定這個是在今年8月底的時候美國國務院他們所做出來的一個報告那針對這個部分請問一下國防部有沒有掌握只有這個"},{"start":14263.854,"end":14265.658,"text":"這是公開資訊啊不用美國政府提供給你們啊"},{"start":14271.75,"end":14291.938,"text":"報告委員我們在軍售的部分我們主要是以美方提供的官方文件為主要依據這個是 State Department of State這是國務院官方網站這個稱不稱為官方資訊我覺得不會拿來路不明的媒體寫一些來路不明的資訊上來質詢"},{"start":14294.366,"end":14320.352,"text":"這樣就不負責任了這是美國國務院他們公開在網站上面SEC官方文件也出來了我為什麼會關心這件事情美國國務院說從2017年8月到2023年9月雷神公司因為經過好幾次合併現在合併完了以後跟名叫做RTXRTX這家公司幹了什麼事情"},{"start":14321.292,"end":14340.418,"text":"國防物品機密資料沒有經過授權就出口到中國去我看了這個報告我很擔心更擔心的是什麼向中國採購PWBPWB就是印刷電路板這個印刷電路板會用在非常多的地方"},{"start":14341.098,"end":14354.979,"text":"而這個PWB他會用在販售到其他國家的軍機上面然後把這些軍購的項目有涉及到的軍機全面都列出來了我只是基於善意"},{"start":14356.5,"end":14374.95,"text":"國防部到目前為止針對於美國的國務院他們已經做出了認定而且在行政上面跟他和解先賠一億美金完了以後後面是情況再追加另外一億美金這件事情啊國防部有沒有掌握"},{"start":14377.136,"end":14392.023,"text":"我們下去會再進一步了解一下再麻煩部長稍微了解一下順便跟美方問一下因為這個從美國人的觀點不是機密質詢我全部從他們國務院的官方網站"},{"start":14393.294,"end":14421.504,"text":"就可以下載到他裡面所認定違反的太陽他把這些機密的資訊包括竟然向中國採購印刷電路板在他們自己各自各樣的軍機上我看了嚇壞了希望這些東西沒有用在賣到台灣的武器上因為我沒有辦法一筆一筆去核對嘛那比較清楚的資訊可能在美方那邊這個部分可能要"},{"start":14422.512,"end":14437.292,"text":"除了有關於overcharge的部分錢要要回來以外針對國務院所做出來這麼嚴重對於RTX違反出口管制規定是不是會影響到台灣這個部分可能要請國防部了解一下可以嗎"},{"start":14437.773,"end":14438.013,"text":"謝謝部長 下一個就是說"},{"start":14459.048,"end":14471.961,"text":"防彈背心我們國軍用的防彈背心竟然有不肖的商人從中國進口假的防彈纖維布這根本是為了私利致國家安全與不顧"},{"start":14473.888,"end":14499.559,"text":"在市場上面大家都知道防彈背心我也不曉得當初價格是怎麼定的利潤很高啦利潤高它會造成什麼樣的效果我看到一堆本業根本不是在搞防彈背心的通通都來標有那種什麼賣電鍋的公司啦電腦公司啦全部都來標我們的抗彈纖維部那他們來標他也不是自己"},{"start":14500.532,"end":14522.454,"text":"生產全部轉包給其他的廠商他們之間中間賺一手就對了所以從國防部軍備級2017年2018年2019年的採購甚至到2020年最近護衣科技結果得標的這些廠商背後都是同一群不肖的人"},{"start":14523.491,"end":14547.583,"text":"這件事情我就問了公共工程委員會大眾電腦得標大同公司得標背後有公衛公司然後有一群也不是一群就特定的幾個人他名下有不同的公司在那邊賺轉包的錢之前大家開始質疑的時候前部長邱國正他證實"},{"start":14554.011,"end":14572.458,"text":"不像廠商進口中國製膠貨賺1.7億價差這個是前部長證實的事情那當然出現了這樣子的弊案啊剪掉該偵辦的該偵辦該坐牢的去坐牢沒什麼好說的那但是這不像的廠商我們一定要處理嘛"},{"start":14574.102,"end":14593.435,"text":"兩年前有人問國防部說那為什麼這些不肖的廠商沒有停權結果國防部的回應說因為工程會調解所以沒有列政府採購公報我上個禮拜問工程會的主委工程會的主委說工程會的調解歸調解停權歸停權是兩碼子事"},{"start":14595.296,"end":14607.795,"text":"一個是私人糾紛另外一個牽涉到公共利益然後我上禮拜質詢完了以後你們國防部也有官員來找我瞭解那請問你像瞭解你們當初到底國防部是誰做這樣子的回應"},{"start":14609.261,"end":14609.961,"text":"國防部是誰做這樣的回應?"},{"start":14631.839,"end":14644.891,"text":"大同公司的部門當時回應說在跟調解這個講法應該是不正確的應該是說所以這是錯誤的訊息嗎就是說他是要向工程會提出申訴的時候呢依照政府採購102條吧我記得是這樣"},{"start":14647.534,"end":14648.715,"text":"所以現在工程會還沒有做出決定?"},{"start":14675.135,"end":14699.335,"text":"還沒有還沒有因為他應該是這邊的資料是8月23號向工程會提出沒有關係那我會再回去追工程會喔對那因為現在我發現的狀況是我上個禮拜問工程會工程會把皮球踢給國防部說國防部啊根本沒有申請他停權那顯然上個禮拜工程會主委在接受詢答的時候他所提供的訊息不是正確的現在我們把他釐清了啦是因為"},{"start":14700.456,"end":14728.288,"text":"國防部有要給他停權但他提申訴現在還卡在工程會是因為工程會的關係到現在才沒停權這樣對吧因為他823才向工程會提出申訴嘛那按照政府採購啊又等工程會的申訴審議判出來之後才給停權不好意思喔這個是2022年就發生的事情對但是是最近才提出那個應該是不是喔那如果2022年的時候國防部那時候有沒有提報他停權"},{"start":14729.13,"end":14752.545,"text":"我們是依照這個起訴書這112年的起訴書然後在113年5月13號通知大航空陳述意見然後6月27號的時候我們的審議將這個該公司要勘認政府採購公報然後他提出意義之後8月9號我們駁回他駁回他之後在8月23號向工程會提出這個具體處理的時程是不是可以麻煩部長"},{"start":14753.485,"end":14771.184,"text":"你們會後提供一個詳細書面的列表讓所有的委員都可以知道因為大家很關心這件事啊這種垃圾公司啊不孝廠商啊從中國進防彈纖維部啊開什麼玩笑啊致我們國軍弟兄的生命安危於不顧啊"},{"start":14772.714,"end":14799.457,"text":"這一定要重重懲罰嘛該停權就要停嘛如果大同公司如果大同公司在程序上面要做這樣子的拖延我們也要讓社會大眾知道嘛所以現在大同公司到底在搞什麼東西嘛除了大同跟大眾以外啊後面分包的廠商包括工位包括那些不法分子所控制的廠商有參與國防部標案的是不是應該要一併停權"},{"start":14801.46,"end":14823.903,"text":"根據這個政府採購法的規定的話我們是指對得標的這個廠商來競選好來看一下機關依照採購法101條第一項對廠商的通知屬於行政法對象除了違反鎖定採購法或採購契約義務的廠商之外還包括什麼分包廠商分以得標廠商為限喔部長"},{"start":14826.527,"end":14831.548,"text":"請你們回去跟工程會稍微商量一下我為什麼說跟工程會商量一下最惡質的就是背後這個工位嘛"},{"start":14856.334,"end":14876.743,"text":"結果我們搞了半天停權的對象不包括最惡質的工位讓他可以繼續胡搞瞎搞這樣對嗎?您聽得懂我的意思嗎?你如果了解整個案情的話就知道最惡質的就是背後面的廠商嘛結果最後面的廠商沒有辦法處理到這樣對嗎?這個是我的問題"},{"start":14880.509,"end":14906.119,"text":"部長沒有關係時間的關係先到這裡再麻煩部長請部內的同仁把具體的狀況瞭解完了以後我下一次質詢的時候再來追下面其他的問題好我們來瞭解一下因為他現在就是說供貨的廠家跟這個分包商我們稍微把它理清楚一下好不好好謝謝好那請國防部也列表給每一個委員好那謝謝黃國昌委員部長請回"},{"start":14910.206,"end":14914.213,"text":"接下來,請林俊憲委員上台質詢。好,謝謝。本期邀請我們國防部顧部長。請顧部長。"},{"start":14931.997,"end":14955.006,"text":"市長辛苦了今天大家都在關心這個雷神的事件我想有幾個事情希望再請部長能夠進一步釐清因為這個事情主要是美國2021年就在調查雷神公司那時候調查只是要查雷神公司是否有涉及行賄卡達然後查到2021年查到"},{"start":14956.533,"end":14977.405,"text":"今年2024年的大概6月7月吧就開始美國有很多媒體報導更進一步查到了雷神有台價的事情我現在舉給你看這我從那個華爾街日報抓到的華爾街日報大概在這是今年大概7月的新聞那時候查的就是"},{"start":14979.093,"end":14992.604,"text":"卡達的那個雷神公司有沒有行為卡達然後美國國防部審計單位在進一步去查雷神公司才查到他有這個台價的事情這就案外案"},{"start":14994.557,"end":15020.217,"text":"然後今年10月1號突然間有一個奇怪的媒體就報導雷神的台價事件好像就是說台灣是個盤那美國就刻意的在這個台價事件上台灣吃大虧我想請教部長第一個那雷神的台價事件受害國家有哪些"},{"start":15023.642,"end":15043.46,"text":"我們有掌握了一些國家但是我想我們不適宜可能將這些國家一一列舉美國有受害嗎?美國有那雷神公司是美國的公司嗎?是不是這樣?不是他是私人的我知道我知道我知道基本上他涉及在美國的嘛"},{"start":15045.737,"end":15070.652,"text":"對,屬於美國境內的公司美國境內美國本土的公司主要是軍火供應給美國國防部我請教如果美國也受害的話那表示我說的是台價那表示美國的審計單位也沒有辦法在軍火購買當下知道這個價格有沒有台價有沒有合理"},{"start":15072.097,"end":15094.932,"text":"對,所以這一點我們也是希望就是說因為美國現在給我們的資訊我們還沒有辦法確知就是說所以如果美國也受害我知道美國有受害啦卡達也受害啦台灣也受害啦至少三個國家啦其實是多國受害啦是是那也就是說這麼多國家的都沒有辦法在軍火購買的時候就知道這個價格合不合理囉"},{"start":15096.479,"end":15119.274,"text":"坦白說,剛剛很多人關心我們國防部有沒有能力事先就知道這個價格到底合不合理,能不能買。其實每一筆軍火採購都不一樣。我認為如果連美國都受害,那我當然強烈懷疑,那我也知道大概我們國防部也沒有辦法有能力確保這個價格是否合理,是不是這樣?"},{"start":15120.322,"end":15128.104,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":15149.548,"end":15174.798,"text":"美國給我們的初步訊息有一些但是我覺得我們剛剛在機密報告裡面已經報告了所以我想就不在這邊再多做說明天幕僚提醒你你要回答不確定那實際上大概差不多這個時間了所以以那個時間序來講的話那在台灣的台灣幾乎就是藍綠都受害現在確實時間還沒有辦法完全的那就是藍綠受害嘛因為他也牽扯到馬政府執政的時候"},{"start":15176.874,"end":15186.693,"text":"也就是說你國防部發新聞稿提的那個內容農場他所寫的所謂他要引導成以美論啦引導成台灣是個叛難啦"},{"start":15189.028,"end":15207.454,"text":"基本上啊,就我剛回到第一個,很多國家都受害根本很難有能力說知道,因為軍火是一種很特殊的採購啦,你很難知道說這個價格狀況如何啦,每一筆都確定合理嗎?連美國都受害啦,這我剛跟你確定的啦。第二個,如果按照這個內容農場所寫的齁,那其實跨時間點來講的話,台灣藍綠都受害了。"},{"start":15212.278,"end":15214,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":15233.16,"end":15247.065,"text":"再來我跟你確定第三點你剛有提官部很罕見的新聞稿裡面我看到官部措辭非常強烈他特別提出這是一個屬性特殊的內容農場請問部長這屬性特殊是什麼特殊法你給黨都沒辦法回答"},{"start":15256.291,"end":15257.532,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":15275.373,"end":15286.738,"text":"那部長,因為國防部有特別提出啦,他的時間點很敏感啦,因為剛好在中國的國慶,10月1號,所以你說那個屬性特殊的內農農場,請教喔,所以這個內農農場是境外的喔?"},{"start":15295.34,"end":15310.503,"text":"是嗎?並不能說他是一個完全的境外人。不能什麼樣?他改簽責在內?他的這個整個發布的訊息還是在以國內的訊息為主。我看這個內容農場喔,基本上跟台灣以前一個政治人物曲美鳳有相當的關係。那你說這個屬性農場,不,屬性特殊的農場,那我再請教部長喔。那你覺得這個內容農場啊,是否有中國介入啊?"},{"start":15322.236,"end":15338.045,"text":"我現在沒有辦法給您一個肯定的答案但是我們只是認為就是說問你到現在沒有一個可以肯定的部長你當過國安局局長你這個是非常有特殊經歷的一個國安部長這個內容農長該不會重複有介入在裡面"},{"start":15341.688,"end":15345.151,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":15359.864,"end":15362.105,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":15380.489,"end":15382.811,"text":"我可以高度懷疑中國介入的一個內容農場所發出來的一個刻意抹黑的訊息"},{"start":15406.027,"end":15433.489,"text":"因為跟委員報告就是說因為我們是認為他特意的只強調似乎是台灣這樣擔憂那事實上是美國政府也一起有購買就是我剛講的嘛所以美國政府本身也包括在裡面的話那就不是說美國政府把我們當帕納或者當凱茲因為如果美國政府本身也受害我的邏輯就是這樣美國政府都沒有辦法事先知道這個價格是被轟台的"},{"start":15433.829,"end":15434.409,"text":"接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢。"},{"start":15468.897,"end":15476.52,"text":"主席、在黨委員先進、列席總軍事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生。有請我們顧部長。請顧部長。部長好。部長,請問你認為作戰要打勝仗,靠的是軍人還是靠的是武器?"},{"start":15492.082,"end":15510.094,"text":"我想這個愛情跟麵包哪個重要?都重要啦,所以呢我們不只要有精良的武器,我們要能源、裝備、訓練,都是很重要。很好,那目前我們都知道,目前我們國軍戰鬥啊,邊線戰鬥單位邊線也不足八成,缺額缺在哪裡?缺在陸軍?缺在海軍?還是缺在空軍?"},{"start":15512.201,"end":15533.157,"text":"我據我的了解應該是在這個主戰部隊那應該是以陸軍為主其實各個軍種都缺啦其實都缺兵那這邊線比第一類的戰鬥部隊邊線比都不到八成那假設啦我換個問題方式那你覺得如果現在的官兵缺額是缺在哪個階層缺在軍官缺在士官還是缺在士兵"},{"start":15535.652,"end":15562.292,"text":"我想應該是士兵到這個其實我們看得到的軍官士官長不缺二等兵也不缺缺的是什麼基層的士官上等兵和一兵為什麼因為我們的上士以上是跟我們一般的這個勞工的平均金融性薪資已經可以達到了但講的是薪資我們來看一下其實是制度我們看一下我當兵的時候是兩年兵"},{"start":15563.012,"end":15587.859,"text":"那時候前6個月是二兵6個月之後可以升為一兵一年後你就升為上兵所以退伍前的半年我是上兵假設是這樣但是我不是上兵退伍我是下士退伍為什麼因為我在中心訓兩個月的時候他們就來挑那我被編入了士官隊我受了士官訓所以我以下士退役的退伍的所以目前因為我們兵役制度過去是4個月4個月只能二兵"},{"start":15588.799,"end":15613.607,"text":"連一兵的時間都沒有,所以我們目前4個月的志願役、義務役是一兵跟上兵缺。那現在已經調整了一個年期的義務役,所以未來會有二兵會有一兵,但是我們會缺三兵,是不是這樣子?這樣了解了齁?兵役制度造成我們基層的士兵啊,他會在這樣的一個編制上會缺,那怎麼解決?怎麼解決?未來續發一兵,未來續發回去正務一兵,"},{"start":15617.659,"end":15646.648,"text":"我想我們在志願役招募上面還是會來加強啦那一年期的義務役服完之後是他就是一兵了啦那時候會去上兵跟士官了對不對委員好我跟委員報告一下就是說其實我們兵啊不管是招募的或義務役的我們都會盡量去滿足尤其我們從114年開始兵的緣合會越來越多我直接講啦我們有前一段時間我們急缺哨位啦"},{"start":15647.208,"end":15671.889,"text":"因為我們自願意的從軍的軍校畢業的是中衛起跳啦過去有預官的時候哨衛排長不缺後來有段是缺哨衛軍官現在我們慢慢充實了招募之後哨衛軍官不缺了往下跳我們往下看齁其實目前的基層軍事官兵的來源是這樣子軍官、正期生、專科、專業軍官班還有大專儲備軍官團服役年限長他可以終生來服役他有退休縫"},{"start":15673.05,"end":15675.472,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":15692.364,"end":15718.155,"text":"好,我們多少亦務亦轉服志願亦成功的,您覺得滿不滿意?部長你看看我們社會青年從社會青年穆德的達成率都在八成左右,八成五但是在興訓轉服的人的達成率啊,超標啊超標,我們預計要五千八,來了六千三部長了解什麼原因嗎?如果你穆兵的目標都可以達成,為什麼現在還有缺額?為什麼現在還缺一兵?為什麼現在還上兵?為什麼還缺士官?為什麼?"},{"start":15719.383,"end":15738.45,"text":"看下一個圖啦不是目標達標要留得住啦你的達標率九成多但是你離營了兩年後四年後離營的為什麼會離營兩個原因他起碼不續留阿第二個他想留我部隊也不要他為什麼不適合從事軍旅生涯嘛我會太處嘛"},{"start":15739.383,"end":15763.687,"text":"部長同不同意這樣的分析是好往下看所以說我們要知道招募人才怎麼樣才不會被太處什麼時候招現場的軍官知道目前我們人才招募各部隊在那些義務役入伍訓的時候什麼時候招一開始第一週招還是8週之後招還是16週要退伍了才來招部長如果是你你會什麼時候去招"},{"start":15765.626,"end":15768.131,"text":"我想我們應該你知道什麼時候去招募嗎?"},{"start":15768.131,"end":15769.253,"text":"你知道什麼時候去招募嗎?"},{"start":15769.253,"end":15772.338,"text":"你知不知道目前我們的單位在新運單位各部隊及新運單位招募什麼時候去嗎?"},{"start":15772.338,"end":15773.921,"text":"目前我們的單位在新運單位各部隊及新運單位招募什麼時候去嗎?"},{"start":15773.921,"end":15774.242,"text":"應該是第一週第一週"},{"start":15778.203,"end":15796.34,"text":"第一週連藝男自己都不曉得自己是不是軍女生啊你知道第一週的課程是什麼第一週都是室內課調試第一週的興訊所有的阿兵哥都在聽什麼來自包括調查局包括空軍機場來這邊招募啦招募他去戰四年的衛兵啦"},{"start":15798.075,"end":15826.322,"text":"如果說他16個星期滿了他離開了你去招募他他也不留啦四個月我已經到了我要給我人生規劃合理的招募時間點對於我們部隊留才很重要你讓他受了8週的新訓經歷了軍旅的一個基本不下面的訓練他自己知道他適不適合部隊也可以評估他適不適合這時候去招才會怎麼樣容易騙但是很快就走部長你同意嗎招募的時間要不要檢討"},{"start":15828.217,"end":15848.362,"text":"委員的意見我覺得你知不知道目前都是第一週在招第一週有沒有實戰的課有沒有實體連體能訓練都沒有這時候的遇難到部隊裡面都是用什麼薪水很高啦離家很近啦單位任你選啦這樣招得進來都超標但是留不留得住"},{"start":15849.471,"end":15874.088,"text":"留不留得住?檢討一下好不好?第二個這個委員的意見我覺得蠻好的齊滿不蓄留為什麼?下次薪水快四萬二兵三萬六看起來差不多但是期待值不同我下次我可以買賣我如果是士官學校出來的我從下次開始幹我幹到士官長我可以幹到25年我的退伍的時候我的待遇呢如果一等士官長我可以接近將官"},{"start":15875.322,"end":15889.148,"text":"有鐘聲奉我收二兵你人才招募我我留四年我留八年我不會留一輩子為什麼我不可能拿到鐘聲奉是不是這樣子所以當我們對於短一期的士官兵的時候我們的招募要講的待遇我們來看一下"},{"start":15890.663,"end":15918.556,"text":"現在戰鬥兵的二兵戰鬥的二兵加起來看起來也不少喔四萬一千三比我們平均性是高很多喔但是他卻是24小時要待勤要待命備勤阿尤其是艦艇兵你就算是人家工作八小時領四萬塊你在艦艇上領四萬塊你八小時下了哨你還是在艦艇上阿所以很多人鼓勵年輕人要存第一桶金來海軍艦艇兵保證你可以四年存一百萬部長你同不同意"},{"start":15923.447,"end":15946.418,"text":"我說很多認識的一些年輕人他們都告訴我從軍不錯還只要志願去海軍去艦艇兵四年一桶金一百萬退伍回來考大學還有加分大學四年的學會不用靠別人我是在幫你們招募喔我要做正面的宣傳喔但是我們想想看其他人會這樣想嗎我們看看其他國家以色列他的平均二兵月薪大概十萬塊"},{"start":15947.899,"end":15970.354,"text":"現在以下衝突為了國家賣命應該的新加坡他的國民所得比我們高他的一般戰鬥兵大概5萬2台幣考量到我們的國民所得不同美國更多了10領13萬還配宿舍你會不會覺得如果我們短一期的士官兵他如果10年後沒有終生夢可以期待現在的待遇要不要提高"},{"start":15974.807,"end":15993.595,"text":"要知道喔短一期的10年以下的他是二類喔他退伍了之後他是二類他是農民啊第二類的他是沒有這些其他退伍其他的軍官退下來的越推修縫的部長你覺得咧你會覺得我們國軍基層的士兵士官待遇需要再加強"},{"start":15995.354,"end":16016.789,"text":"跟委員報告我現在正在召會進行演繹委員的意見我非常值得參考我會把它納入我們部內在討論的時候一個課題非常感謝部長我希望不要拿我們的基層的士官兵的待遇去跟他同年齡的年輕人在社會上的平均薪資中位數來比不要這樣比要跨國比"},{"start":16017.932,"end":16041.634,"text":"而且不要跟士兵跟士兵比要士兵跟軍官比軍官有月退休奉的期待他的職業生涯現在待遇差一點他願意接受但是士官士兵短一期的十年內就退了沒有終身奉你們要在限職的待遇上予以調升讓他覺得為國家服務為國家奉獻保衛社會有尊嚴而且有好的待遇同不同意"},{"start":16043.752,"end":16044.353,"text":"接下來我們請黃仁委員上台質詢"},{"start":16076.32,"end":16086.485,"text":"有請部長請國防部長事務方面也好部長好"},{"start":16088.057,"end":16114.464,"text":"剛前幾個委員都已經有特別講這個程序發言的這個部分但我表達的就是說這已經不是一個機密秘密會議因為這個已經是美國媒體爆料而且比你剛剛秘密會議的資料還要更多還要為什麼還要再做秘密會議所以這個就是我本席特別提出來的那"},{"start":16115.664,"end":16131.719,"text":"當然剛剛有幾個委員幫你打元簽打元說雷神都已經公開這個是報告報告價格都有涉及到詐欺第二個"},{"start":16133.186,"end":16150.597,"text":"第二、我想你們的機密都非常的清楚有多國的傷害也有好幾個廠商的傷害那競標的廠商目前你得知了大概多少如果按照機密可以公開的話"},{"start":16151.874,"end":16167.184,"text":"您說廠商還是受害的國家受害的國家我們有出過統計但是我想相關的這個部分還是容我不在這邊把它一一點名既然都已經知道"},{"start":16168.084,"end":16183.064,"text":"那我們為什麼我國還要聽從這一些這個廠商或者是雷神他們所自己購買的一些武器然後我們為什麼不做一個防範"},{"start":16184.665,"end":16212.174,"text":"以下我來提出一個有關於三個主要的一個提問美國司法先前就已經對針對雷神公司報價的這個價格都已經發出了一個軍工企業發起的調查發現這些公司在簽訂非一旦接受合約的時候都已經是價位過高涉及到詐欺"},{"start":16214.036,"end":16224.154,"text":"以下美國軍售有特殊性不能採用一般採購的角度來看事情當然我想請問一下部長"},{"start":16225.868,"end":16248.567,"text":"台灣的戰略地位也有特殊性台灣是美國防堵中共的黨建牌那當然執政黨一天到晚最大捏心的來做一個宣導就是說台美的關係史上最好但台灣並沒有受到更好的待遇我們今天講一個一直把我們當作是一個這個"},{"start":16252.38,"end":16278.096,"text":"第二、我們已經買了205億的軍售錢都已經過去了但是我們的武器都沒有來這個你們一定要去做反應這是國人一直到現在對我們國防部一直產生一個質疑到底我們有沒有能力去把這些武器205億美金"},{"start":16281,"end":16286.877,"text":"的這一些武器有沒有能力請它儘速地趕快移交到我們台灣來"},{"start":16289.401,"end":16310.696,"text":"我想第一點我要跟委員報告美國才剛剛宣布了第二批的PDA這個總額是達到5.67億美金那前一批的話應該是大約是113.6億美金這個都是無償的軍演所以美國對於強化我國自我防衛能力的這種協助"},{"start":16312.237,"end":16328.085,"text":"是不言可喻的所以我想還是要先說明這一點美國不是一直在對我們說要我們買、抬高這個價格貴的武器這樣的講法是不實的那第二點就是說"},{"start":16330.026,"end":16354.886,"text":"我想相關的這些遲延的交互的這些東西的話我想三項主要的部分依據這個歸宿的話應該是說一個脫勢二比一那我們希望在年底以前就可以到那另外一個是AGM154"},{"start":16357.388,"end":16371.765,"text":"那這個部分呢我們因為它這個產性的問題我們還在跟美國恰當另外一個是F16那F16的部分呢我們希望第4屆能夠看到第一架那我們還是希望它能夠在2026年年底以前能夠全數交易完畢"},{"start":16372.626,"end":16393.537,"text":"希望這個要儘速趕快追討我們的武器裡面因為錢都已經過去了那至於購買武器我們不能當肥羊我們一定要省慎這些武器的精良不是給我們二手然後呢都發美的發美的這個以上要提醒部長那另外就是針對我們換相換相機"},{"start":16397.259,"end":16411.571,"text":"是否延受這個在今年的9月初發生的幻象2000的失事那首先非官或就目前失事原因的調查是是否有進展"},{"start":16412.412,"end":16432.441,"text":"當然這個是一個攸關有後面我們能不能再使用這幻象2000的這個飛機另外就是部長還有參謀長認為這是這些私事的問題是不是機械的問題還是人為的操作的原因你來回答"},{"start":16433.877,"end":16449.632,"text":"是,向委員報告。第一個,委員講了幻象的延壽。這在去年我們已經跟法方原廠已經簽訂了這個延壽評估的合約。這個已經在、正在進行了。至於第二個問題,是不是"},{"start":16452.074,"end":16452.634,"text":"三十年的飛機"},{"start":16481.45,"end":16498.965,"text":"維修的成本極高操作成本每小時將近80萬台幣那妥善率也值60%是我國三款主力戰機中成本最高那妥善率最低的機型"},{"start":16499.665,"end":16521.385,"text":"三、另外也因為上述的原因幻象2000一直是有延壽升級派換的討論空軍目前對此有何任何的想法還有規劃因為剛剛我已經提出這個數據了妥善率也值60%另外一次它的操作成本每小時80萬"},{"start":16523.146,"end":16549.637,"text":"那你如何降低這個成本才會延售的一個基礎如果今天沒有降低這個成本包含它的比值的話那如何採取延售因為它現在它賣給我們的這一些維修的機械這一些飛機的機械都非常的高我們國人能不能接受這個價格你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":16550.379,"end":16576.7,"text":"校委員報告我們跟大方不只只有原廠還有其他各我們會有開放各個通路然後跟開放式的合約來爭取各項的這個器材的維修還有供應所以都會有不是都是單一廠商來做提供的那這價錢都是公開透明的"},{"start":16577.14,"end":16596.178,"text":"公開透明沒有錯啦你們要原意的條件不能以現在要元素然後它的基建的價格到現在還沒有辦法降低那這樣的話對我們國人來講的話是浪費了人民的公帑啊所以你要提出這個方案我剛剛已經提出了嘛"},{"start":16597.816,"end":16617.224,"text":"向委員報告這個器材的供應都是有必要性的因為要維護維持機隊的妥善率那我們事實上我們的妥善率也都一直在維持在我們預定的陸班妥善率以上以上跟好我現在問你對幻象機進行的嚴肅的驗證"},{"start":16620.063,"end":16645.124,"text":"規劃到明年的7月底那若驗證後決定元素換箱機預估可再服役20年但20年後可能已經是六代機的天下那換箱機的元素若無法確保法國原廠搭配升級尤其在落後的航電系統跟飛彈部分未升級的話其戰力即非常有限"},{"start":16646.305,"end":16661.593,"text":"所以如此的延售是不是能夠划算所以這個你要評估你能不能把這些評估報告順便給我一份然後再來你們在對外是不是可以延售的條件好不好你要回答"},{"start":16662.344,"end":16681.538,"text":"是跟委員報告我們這個延壽合約在延壽之後幻象戰機可以從現在的本來的7500小時提升到9000小時可以延長6到8年也不是委員剛剛所論起的說可以延長20年你們的論述啊20年啊是"},{"start":16684.64,"end":16685.04,"text":"國防部長報告"},{"start":16699.973,"end":16706.415,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。三、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":16721.66,"end":16749.265,"text":"對,好,你回答得非常好但是你們在做延售的過程的這個前線應該要評估未來延售它的基建的提供能不能符合國人接受的價格如果延售要提供我們因為要升級能夠延長它的壽命當然裡面的基建包含升級它的整個的武器的裝備"},{"start":16751.026,"end":16771.801,"text":"當然我們要關心的是我們能不能接受它的價格它的價格如果它跟你變本加厲那我們是不是元素的問題就要考量所以這個就是我剛提出來的問題嘛因為這邊有提出能夠在整個的一個雷達這個"},{"start":16775.184,"end":16792.78,"text":"韓電系統或飛彈這個部分的升級那你們提升的條件是不是比現在更能夠既有戰備的條件戰力的條件委員是的提升之後還是會維持他的"},{"start":16794.266,"end":16795.286,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報"},{"start":16811.913,"end":16836.44,"text":"都是一樣的沒有說拉抬的這個情況以上報告如果它的元素的價格如果不符合國人的期待的話是不是再考慮到另外的機種然後考慮一次購買那這樣的話不要再為了這個機種裡面的元素然後變成我們要承載的這一些負擔的經濟的壓力這一些國人的公帑好不好"},{"start":16837.18,"end":16856.729,"text":"我們雙座機的部分現在才比較面臨有延售的問題剛剛提到單座機的部分是還沒有那至於剛剛委員提到的其他的相關的機種部分我想我們會在作戰需求來進行審慎的評估好以上謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝黃仁委員顧部長請回接下來我們請鄭正前委員上台質詢"},{"start":16873.84,"end":16875.003,"text":"謝謝主席,我想請一下顧部長有請顧部長"},{"start":16883.627,"end":16908.449,"text":"是,政委喔部長好,已經超過1點鐘了那還有很多委員也等在質詢那國防部的同仁也都還在現場就是可以感覺到國防部還是蠻矜持的啦那我在想說因為今天我們在講說雷神這個案子的時候那您之前也回答過就是很多委員就提到說因為我們軍售跟商售畢竟不太一樣那我在想說因為我們軍售的時候美國政府有收取3.2%的行政費"},{"start":16910.991,"end":16913.893,"text":"還有1.2%的那個合約管理服務費是不是這樣子?也是。是這樣子嗎?那除了3.2%的行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費還有沒有其他的費用?"},{"start":16925.253,"end":16928.415,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":16945.643,"end":16970.422,"text":"那我想說請教一下部長因為那個雷神這個部分因為有福報那坦白說我覺得美國政府主動發現這件事情然後主動查辦然後通知我們我倒覺得這個部分倒不是以美論我覺得反而這件事情我覺得反而要給美國政府某一個部分的肯定至少我角度是這樣子的那我在想說因為雷神這個福報這個軍購案的時候呢那我想問一下台灣到底被坑了多少錢"},{"start":16972.559,"end":16991.437,"text":"跟委員報告我想美方在進行照會的時候有跟我們提供一個初步的金額但是我剛已經在機密手報已經報了那我想這些都還在司法調查程序進行當中那我想我們據台美之間的默契在司法程序還在進行當中我們就不以公開說明"},{"start":16992.918,"end":17015.267,"text":"部長這部分我也尊重不過因為你在回應媒體的時候你有特別提到不當款項你會全數追討回來嗎我想請教在全數追討回來的部分是針對現在被披露出來的部分還是所有之前跟雷神之前說的一個軍購案的部分都會重新去檢討然後把不當的部分討回來"},{"start":17016.607,"end":17036.26,"text":"第一個當然是就現行美方所查出來的這個部分的金額,美方會跟我們恰上就是說將雷神最早回來以後還給我們這是第一個。第二個其他案的部分呢美國現在已經也在逐一的清查,全面的清查當中"},{"start":17036.8,"end":17037.52,"text":"對,美國政府的告知是如此。"},{"start":17053.109,"end":17080.845,"text":"OK 那我想說這部分我想說我們國防部這個立場的時候我就肯定還是要持續去follow後續的一個問題那我這邊延續的部分就是說因為美國政府既然有收在軍售當中有收3.2%的一個行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費那我們對台軍售的部分他們對台軍售的部分不斷的延遲那這個部分我們是不是可以也要求他們能夠去加以"},{"start":17082.25,"end":17084.651,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":17108.637,"end":17136.681,"text":"這個部分我想說到時候您再給我一個書面一個資料因為在之前我們也關心過很多那我現在想要特別講的部分是因為在這段時間的時候中國武力威脅器不斷讓我們國防部的裝備去狂用錄製的一個產品7月份的時候國防部清查全軍158處所有24室使用錄製的一個產品包括4個案子是錄油器還有資料處理器然後800多部的一個行車記錄器都是"},{"start":17137.542,"end":17144.439,"text":"我整理了一下從2022年到今年為止大概有10個案子都是國防部"},{"start":17146.425,"end":17156.087,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍"},{"start":17176.411,"end":17201.582,"text":"李電池也被認為是有影響資通訊安全的一個部分那針對這八個案子當的這十個案子裡面有八個案子都是中科院的那部長因為你本身是中科院的董事長那所以說我們覺得這部分肯定要加以特別的去關注那針對這個部分我就特別針對剛被揭露出來的因為之前的部分很多大家也都討論過"},{"start":17203.072,"end":17220.971,"text":"那麼在這個剛被揭露出來的部分竄改錄製電池的這部分他在寬頻那個通信機裡面標案在這裡面請部長嚴厲去查到時候在整個驗收的時候務必不能夠被"},{"start":17222.793,"end":17243.322,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍�"},{"start":17249.826,"end":17274.629,"text":"這部分的時候我們希望部長這邊能夠加以去查核然後對於中科院這個部分這兩年多來十個案子有八個案子都是中科院這邊的我們希望部長這邊是不是能夠加以特別的去關切然後針對這每一個案子的部分也給本席一個具體的一個回應我們後續到底是怎麼處理這個部分"},{"start":17275.404,"end":17279.725,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":17297.79,"end":17324.057,"text":"所以現在正在驗收是不是?上個禮拜交貨但因為颱風所以是跟廠商約好今天和明天這兩天我們進行逐項的驗收因為這個部分我在想說還有裡面的那操作部還有什麼那個去模糊標示這個部分我們希望都能夠一一的去把它給挑出來好不好針對國家的安全的部分我想國防部這邊肯定是責無旁貸中科院這邊肯定也是責無旁貸好不好"},{"start":17325.358,"end":17346.636,"text":"對,中間剛回答了,剛委員提到這兩個案子,因為還沒有進行驗收,所以我們會按照嚴謹的程序來進行驗收。好,謝謝部長。那其他的案子之前處理得如何,也請給本席一個書面回應。因為到目前為止只有天空飛彈那個案子有進入司法程序,好不好?謝謝。"},{"start":17352.98,"end":17363.546,"text":"謝謝正任前委員請國防部也給正任前委員他所需要的素面資料接下來我們請洪孟楷委員上台質詢主席謝謝,麻煩再請我們顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":17383.138,"end":17383.366,"text":"部長好"},{"start":17385.37,"end":17412.68,"text":"王委員部長本期還是關心雷神這個案件跟很多委員都一樣我們看到之後還是覺得很心痛即便你有提到2013年馬政府時代的時候也有這樣的狀況2017年蔡政府時代的時候也有這樣的狀況但是國家是一體的不管是誰執政重點是這些都是中華民國國民的血和錢也都是國民的納稅錢"},{"start":17413.86,"end":17431.772,"text":"那有被福報或者是說被這個中間有人上下其手的地方如果說不是我們這樣退一萬步想如果說不是今天美方那邊主動有這些稽查而公布這樣的報告是不是到目前為止此時刻我們是沒有能力去掌握或者是揭發這樣的一個訊息"},{"start":17433.853,"end":17456.835,"text":"因為我們不是直接跟雷神公司簽約這個部分我們是跟美國政府簽約所以美國政府有一個完全的法律上的一個責任他要進行相關的集合所以美國政府才有辦法就這個合約面來看的話他只有他能夠對雷神公司來進行部長就您這樣子講的意思是今天被"},{"start":17457.976,"end":17475.379,"text":"有人從這中間上下起手是美方的責任咯。美方集合不夠及時。不然從2013年,我們就2013年到現在10年了欸。所以換言之,因為本時我怎麼知道2013是您在媒體,你跟媒體講的嘛。"},{"start":17476.468,"end":17502.504,"text":"就是說是不是2013年也有類似的採購案件可能有這樣的狀況那我們到2014年10年後我們才知道那換言之這個責任是美方的集合不夠及時快速詳細我想就這個年的部分我想我就不宜在這邊再再度說明因為我剛剛已經有在機密專報裡面做了一些說明美方的告知的內容到現在為止呢"},{"start":17503.304,"end":17518.485,"text":"也還沒有全盤的這個詳情所以我們還是等待美方的整個調查報告完畢之後才能夠對外做整個完整的說明那美方的調查報告什麼時候會完畢現在沒有辦法告訴我們一個確確的期限"},{"start":17519.967,"end":17543.507,"text":"現在也沒有辦法告訴,它也不是機密,是你也不清楚。是不是?是機密你就不用講,但是我現在只要確認一下。美方有告訴我們相關現在的一個進度,我剛才機密專報裡面也有講了。是。那所以現在應該是美方在最後的階段,那但是它什麼時候會完成,然後做完整份的報告,那我想這個部分還要等美方通知,我們也會跟美方密切的來協調聯繫。好。"},{"start":17545.408,"end":17555.847,"text":"但是你上禮拜五跟媒體講說有2013年所以說可能他的案情這個案件是橫跨過去這十幾年來都有牽涉"},{"start":17559.625,"end":17583.658,"text":"我想能夠講的就是說主要涉及兩個案件那這個兩個案件我想就沒有辦法詳細的說明但是它的這個啟動調查之後所發現的這個哪一年它有告知我們那我大概就是轉資美方的告證內容那詳細的情況還要等美方的完整的調查報告"},{"start":17584.278,"end":17610.715,"text":"是啊您講的因為本席會看到也是你上禮拜五接受媒體訪問的時候說的嘛好那拉回來啦我覺得防範未然事情也發生了那重點是未來我們還是要走下去啊我們也還是要軍售我們還是要購買武器但我沒有希望是說我們購買是我們需要的武器我們也希望美方可以給我們我們需要的武器那您是不是有提到"},{"start":17611.636,"end":17639.559,"text":"其實就這個溢價能力或空間來講有沒有辦法適時的參考過去的歷史價格或是參考其他國家購買相關武器的一個價格來去做我們談判的籌碼這點有可能做得到嗎我想我現在只能跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說美方的報告出來之後我們會跟美方來共同檢討當時的問題到底是出在什麼地方所以有機會跟美方一起來做檢討"},{"start":17640.419,"end":17661.628,"text":"美方的報告出來我們一定要跟他做檢討因為美國政府也受害那美國政府都受害那美國政府當然要大家清楚那我們當然要探討出這個原因是什麼這是第一個那第二個就是說我剛剛已經講過了我們對於軍售他跟我們互完全的法律上的責任所以美國政府要對我們負責不是雷神公司對我們要負責"},{"start":17662.188,"end":17680.051,"text":"我們能夠跟美方來共同加強之後我們看看我們這邊國防部對於在採購類似這樣的軍售案的時候我們來有什麼可以加強包括我們查閱這個國內外的歷史的價格等等的部分來跟美方一起做研討說"},{"start":17681.112,"end":17707.277,"text":"那這些部分這個價格的合理性我想所以我的意思就是說美方的報告出來應該會有一個比較詳盡的一個說明就是說問題出在什麼地方因為他畢竟是經過好幾層的這個分析然後他還有這個集合的就是整個案情會釐清真相大白水落石出那這樣我們比較能夠找出原因來跟美方共同交流"},{"start":17707.597,"end":17719.164,"text":"我想請教因為你剛特別講一句就說我們對美方所以美方對我們負責那雷神對美方負責是不是這樣對那您也提到就說該求償的我們定追償到底"},{"start":17720.188,"end":17741.01,"text":"那換言之是美方要帶我們向雷神球場還是我們先跟美方球場美方先電給我們然後他再跟雷神球場跟委員報告美方已經承諾會跟我們跟像這個帶位球場跟雷神球場會跟雷神球場因為合約跟委員還是報告是合約"},{"start":17742.091,"end":17743.031,"text":"因為你也是法律人啊"},{"start":17771.061,"end":17800.665,"text":"我只想請教一個實務上的問題如果說美方跟這個雷神公司我不知道說後續他們會不會有官司什麼要打那如果說他們這個時間是要延宕了他沒有在第一時間馬上能有辦法來就做這個球場甚至雷神公司他們可能也會有他們自己的一個說法那我們是不是都要等整個官司完畢之後我們才有可能分拿回我們應拿的部分我剛剛在《經濟新聞報》已經說明美方告知我們的進度了"},{"start":17800.865,"end":17821.429,"text":"所以美方有告訴我們後續他們的做法以及我們的權利應該怎麼樣能夠捍衛的地方 是不是是我剛在機密專報我想如果為那個相關的這個國防外交沒關係機密就機密我沒有要我沒有要了解我只是說要確認一下說這樣的一個後續是不是有我們都有掌握"},{"start":17821.829,"end":17838.016,"text":"我想這也是我們為中華民國納稅人捍衛每一分每一毫該用則用該審則審我想這是一定的一致的態度美國政府有跟我們保持一個密切的聯繫有充分的告知現在進行的狀況好謝謝部長好謝謝謝謝黃孟凱委員部長請回接下來我們請張祺凱委員上台質詢"},{"start":17864.67,"end":17875.921,"text":"請國防部部長報告一、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":17889.364,"end":17915.236,"text":"我只能夠說我們對於國防的預算一直在逐年攀高所以每一年都是歷史新高那今年也是歷史新高那我們會根據我們的財政預渡來穩健的來增長我們我另外特別問請教你這個問題是你已經社會國安會的秘書長嘛對不對你跟美國常打交道你對他們的了解我們這個國防支出到底是要差不多拼多少是比較合理的現在"},{"start":17916.82,"end":17928.993,"text":"明年度算是最多的對不對?包括特別預算有6400多億在我們GDP是2.45而已喔現在如果像川普講的要獅子大開口10%做得到嗎?"},{"start":17931.655,"end":17956.201,"text":"我想我只能夠說我們現在差不多就在2點還不到2點45到2點5左右那因為我們的GPD不斷的攀高所以我們也一直在增進我們的增長我們的國防預算那當然如果相對比起來的話這個民主國家說這個一般在這個國防的公務預算要達到10%這個難度確實是相當的高"},{"start":17959.079,"end":17970.448,"text":"其實我們台灣我們這個預算最高的時候是民國38年那時候曾經84%這樣中央政府總預算的84%那時候是戰爭狀態兩岸戰爭狀態那到蔣中正先生他過世交給蔣經國的時候國防預算已經降到中央政府總預算的六成了"},{"start":17982.264,"end":18010.915,"text":"那蔣經國大家都知道啦經濟預算就開始大幅上升嘛到李登輝的時候變成是社福預算如果現在要像川普這樣講的我們就回到戰爭的狀態我們的社福預算我們的經濟發展的預算就會受到高度的擠壓所以本席認為期一期不可10%是不可能的那美國那邊又一直在提啊很多智庫啊美國高官說至少要有5%我們有可能往5%走嗎5%的話我算了一下"},{"start":18011.926,"end":18039.76,"text":"一一二年那的GDP23兆5451億10%就是2兆3545億了那我們的總預算去年的結算是兩條6284如果真的要90%的話這個預算太高了這個對我們來講是負擔不了的所以我今天部長你們給我一個比較明確的答案你對美國的了解包括你當過國安會的秘書長我們應該是抓大概GDP的幾%是一個最合適的美國也比較可能接受"},{"start":18041.159,"end":18066.278,"text":"我想我們應該會依照現在的財政預渡我相信我們的國防的預算一定會維持一定的成長但是我們現在沒有辦法設定一個說我們要占GDP的多少但是今年已經在2.45了我們當然希望能夠維持陳水扁總統提過GDP的3%一直都達不到你認為有可能往上走走到3%嗎"},{"start":18067.844,"end":18094.751,"text":"因為我們的經濟的表現蠻不錯的所以GDP的成長也一直往上拉高啊所以GDP的成長一直往上拉高GDP往上拉高那個錢還是應該去做社會福利跟經濟建設會比較好我只能說我們的國防預算這幾年來一直在穩定的成長當然我們要自備的這個能力啦自己防衛自己不過基本上我不認為說一下子爬太高啦"},{"start":18095.051,"end":18112.117,"text":"另外一個不是只有量的問題,值的問題也很重要。對啊,很多委員不管常委都在問啊,雷神這個產品的問題,現在不是只有美國現在通知我們,現在我們的潛艦也要買到雷神的這個產品是不是?這個品質有辦法保證嗎?價格有辦法保證嗎?潛艦這部分。"},{"start":18120.23,"end":18124.412,"text":"美國曾經去年給我們一些彈藥結果發現有防美的防彈背心我就看了裡面一筆最特別的270萬發的這個彈藥它就是1983年"},{"start":18145.524,"end":18169.538,"text":"四十年前的彈藥,這比進來之後270萬發的彈藥我們有用嗎?還是怎麼處理?前程之後可以用的,因為我們也自己…40年前,這不是老爺級的…跟委員報告好,軍備局可以跟您做一個聰明的說明,這種所謂的這種非精準武器的這種彈藥,尤其是彈藥本身,我們自己國家本身都有比它年限還長。"},{"start":18171.673,"end":18176.715,"text":"議長報告,剛剛我們部長所說明的我們的P號彈藥確實我們現在都有比國內的都有比剛剛我們PTA進來的還老而且我們的P號彈藥是沒有連線的,是沒有連線的,整個P號"},{"start":18189.779,"end":18215.095,"text":"要經過檢診檢診之後他說對是不是沒有連線不過那個AIT都講了他說他馬上在清不要的東西啊跟委員報告那一次的PDA總值換成新台幣是110億的台幣這一個這個給我們的彈藥本身它不那一個屬於一小部分占30年它事實上也有短的也有應該有"},{"start":18217.216,"end":18224.119,"text":"所以第一次的PDA雙方在運送的過程當中沒有好的檢証所以我們現在也跟美方溝通要求第二次的PDA現在剛剛拜登總統也剛宣布所以一定會共同好好檢視"},{"start":18245.026,"end":18251.549,"text":"因為他也是在協助我們提升我們的後備戰力這一塊的部分我們相關的預算編列還不來不及那美國無償的軍援我們來BDA或FMF"},{"start":18273.358,"end":18295.718,"text":"無償的部分也是大家雙方要共同進行來檢視的,這個本來...另外一點時間我請教一下那清德總統26號他有開這個前社會的防衛任性委員會齁我看他培養那個40萬可視的這個名利這部分,我問你一下那總統開口啦,要去培養這40萬的名利,你今年的預算備在哪裡?有準備?你要怎麼訓練?專備在哪裡?"},{"start":18297.508,"end":18319.669,"text":"這個不是國防部的部分這個是內政部不是民兵是民力這個部分本來就是包含疫警疫消跟這個民防的組織那這個相關的民防法也有相關的規定那民防的組織的部分呢那他們會引進這個替代役的來成為這個民防組織的心血然後目的當然就是說在"},{"start":18321.551,"end":18328.355,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為：完整會議二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":18350.589,"end":18356.834,"text":"請民主黨動員。部長,我可以講幾個概念。第一個,如果這麼單純本來是內政部在做的,你開這個會就沒意思了。總統你去交代這個事情幹嘛?"},{"start":18367.963,"end":18389.278,"text":"應該有其他要精進的吧?例如說你國防部要布準哪一部分?沒有嗎?大家都只放在那個民力的部分。事實上它是整個跨部會。我剛剛講醫療任性涉及衛福部啊。那戰略物資的任性涉及到經濟部、農業部。然後另外呢通訊任性靠拔劃到數位、數化部。然後還有相關的這些包括"},{"start":18390.799,"end":18413.194,"text":"防空避難室、收容自由基站、收容自由基站也涉及到衛福部這是整個跨部會的那大家一直在執著於那個民力的那個部分那當然它是整個跨部會要形成這個整個全社會的韌性韌性如果能夠加強那我想我們可以就預防任何的一個狀況"},{"start":18414.155,"end":18414.575,"text":"我想這個部分呢"},{"start":18437.207,"end":18463.772,"text":"這個大家會誤以為說這是民兵那實際上他不是民兵嘛他是一個因為是回到內政部的所謂的整個救災而已對不對救災那當然如果任何緊急狀況發生的時候他上戰場啊沒有沒有要上戰場但是他要這個有一些相關的一些這個比如說社區你你現在台灣湖源這麼小那"},{"start":18464.58,"end":18471.084,"text":"另外我們做一個比較簡單的ending好不好這是網路上很多人在提的現在既然要響應全社會這個防衛韌性部長能不能呼籲現在清德總統的兒子現在還在美國對不對"},{"start":18494.434,"end":18497.995,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":18512.225,"end":18530.482,"text":"那就要看他們那個有沒有能夠被招入這個民防的系統的行列裡面去嗎?應該大部分都有對不對?全國現在年輕人應該幾乎都在這40萬民力裡面吧?沒有?沒有,不只不只,如果你要講全國那不只,這不只,不只40萬民眾會這樣要求,部長你應該知道民眾為什麼會提這兩個點吧?"},{"start":18536.848,"end":18560.095,"text":"總統是團結的象徵嘛 對不對國家的領導人嘛所以他希望他家人可以參與我們國家的這個防衛嘛那會提到你也是一樣啊提到你的家人最後他們有提那個比較他們說現在黑熊部隊啊是不是應該去投入這個40萬的這個名利有特別至少你看這幾天開始有那個颱風對不對他們有可能加入我們這個整個防災嗎先斷裂先整合嗎"},{"start":18563.046,"end":18586.588,"text":"黑熊部隊主要在宣導一些觀念跟相關的作為那事實上要投入救災這個部分的話應該還是利用我們既有的建制的民力這當然也就包括民防的力量也包括我們的疫警疫消等等的好不好沈博洋是說他三年要訓練三百萬人的是不是他們應該利用這個機會加入這四十萬的這個民力"},{"start":18589.802,"end":18617.935,"text":"我想我沒有辦法代替省委員來回答好不好好啦部長剛剛一開始提的就是人民的納稅錢我們的國防事實上如果真的達到美國一直叫我們交那麼高的這個保護費的話到底對台灣我們至少我們在要求說我們願意發錢的同時拜託一下我們的武器一定要是合適我們用的而且一定是要我們要的而且一定要提一個點最後做一個ending我們如果說買貴的東西或者在牽連上出了問題我們準備要去救責嗎"},{"start":18620.13,"end":18635.442,"text":"我們會跟美國政府來直接來要求要對我們負完全的責任希望我們每一分的納稅錢都用在刀口上好不好好 謝謝謝謝張清台委員 顧部長請回接下來我們請黃森山委員上台質詢"},{"start":18654.091,"end":18679.801,"text":"謝謝主席。我想請國防部長。請國防部長。是,部長好。我想今天主要是臺美這個國防工業論壇又有去美國參加。那也聽到了徐副部長的演講。那其實臺灣蠻辛苦的,因為只有美國會提供給我們武器。"},{"start":18680.501,"end":18702.686,"text":"但是現在的狀況我也認為是臺美之間最好的時候也就是在這之前部長上任的時候已經發生了很多軍售延宕還有相關的後勤的東西送來不夠好這些狀況部長你也才上任沒多久這些狀況沒有辦法解決什麼時候會解決"},{"start":18705.16,"end":18730.295,"text":"現在剛剛您講的這個軍售案遲延交付的部分主要剛剛提到就是說脫勢B的這個部分我想我們希望在今年年底以前那現在F16的部分我們希望在定期價的話在今年部長他這個已經變成了常態嘛就是美國現在他現在包括剛剛講的先前的庫存的這些"},{"start":18731.015,"end":18732.596,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":18757.533,"end":18762.556,"text":"這是我最近聽到包括徐副部長還有美國的官員在這場工業論壇裡面講的最重要的一件事情就是要做co-production"},{"start":18782.468,"end":18807.035,"text":"這件事情現在在您任內是不是應該成為最重要推動的一個項目是我們重要的一項課題在去年的時候我們聽到了這個美台商會的會長他曾經說2022年開始談有關共同生產2024年會有結果可是現在是2024年那這次去還在談一樣共同生產可是好像沒有什麼進展是嗎"},{"start":18809.016,"end":18831.312,"text":"我覺得共同生產要有一些條件那我剛剛回答其他委員的問題的時候也提到了就是說現在美國在認為這個相關的細節部分我們沒有辦法一一跟委員報告但是最重要當然就是說如果可以公開揭露的部分的話那當然就是無人載具這一塊"},{"start":18831.792,"end":18833.212,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售涉虛報"},{"start":18855.159,"end":18872.394,"text":"對美國也已經形成一個政策我聽到智庫還有相關的廠商他們的反應就是兩件事第一個是法令的限制因為美國他必須要鬆綁他的相關輸出的規範第二就是台灣的廠商就算我們跟他們一起生產了我們生產的東西可以賣給誰還是只能賣給美國"},{"start":18874.889,"end":18896.749,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":18897.288,"end":18925.232,"text":"對我想美國也積極的在這個部分協助我們然後來加入其中的一環沒錯來解決這些問題部長我覺得這件事情如果是你任內最重要的事情第一個法律的鬆綁跟相關的規範很重要但是我相信美國為什麼會對這些規定有這麼多的嚴格的限制就是擔心在台灣曾經發生他們給我們的機密的技術可能會外流洩密的問題是台灣不可承受之重對吧"},{"start":18927.469,"end":18950.803,"text":"我想這應該可能也是美國的關切項目之一因為我在財政委員會所以我一直在關心有關所謂的融資公司就看到今年的檢方起訴兩起國安泄密事件包括海軍陸戰隊還有海巡署的軍職士官他們因為欠了錢在網路上APP去融資借款然後"},{"start":18952.345,"end":18975.796,"text":"財務管理不當最後變成被要求竊取國家機密這樣的憲民案部長有掌握嗎目前為止有多少黑數我想這個部分的一個軍風機案件我們個人當然這兩起你知道吧是這兩起是起訴的是沒有起訴的有沒有不知道我想我們"},{"start":18977.737,"end":19001.047,"text":"我希望我們能夠掌握國軍第一讓他融資借款現在供股航庫都有給他們軍人的優惠但是借不到錢的人還是有那怎麼樣了解他們的用錢的狀況或他是不是有生活上的需求在部隊裡面是不是會去向外面借款"},{"start":19002.968,"end":19031.651,"text":"雖然我們的規定非常嚴格不准向不法機構借錢但是什麼是不法機構好像也沒有相關的明確的規範第二個已經發生兩個案例今年就兩個案例那我想請問一下我們現在有什麼管道可以讓這些國軍弟兄有機會得到比較優厚的條件去借到可能借到錢解決他生活上的困難而不至於成為這些不法集團甚至可能會成為泄密"},{"start":19032.552,"end":19035.293,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":19052.04,"end":19080.015,"text":"部裡面在自己的軍隊裡面他能夠求援能夠得到幫助他才不會成為外面的人變成把他當成鎖定的對象你知道外面的這些相關的APP只要軍人不用徵信只要你是軍人就借錢、地利而且不需要抵押品什麼都有這些狀況我覺得軍方要好好的掌握而且這些相關的APP主委當過金管會主委"},{"start":19080.655,"end":19093.896,"text":"我覺得這個部分是除了國防之外剛剛講如果我們要美國同意我們在台灣能夠生產相關的國防產業的武器設備我們首先要先保護好這些相關的資料的安全"},{"start":19094.765,"end":19121.595,"text":"當然好不好,所以部長就這個部分是不是可以給我一個書面的回覆就你們現在針對國軍的相關不管他是在借款或者是他在生活上面有困難你們現在的一些處理的狀況還有相關你們所掌握的現狀可以給我一份書面的報告嗎好,我們來還有這兩個案例他受到的影響也麻煩一起給我好嗎,謝謝好,好,謝委"},{"start":19125.396,"end":19128.077,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員也請國防部給報告接下來我們請羅志強委員上台諮詢有請部長有請顧部長"},{"start":19152.718,"end":19177.57,"text":"羅委員部長好因為我在總統府服務過所以最近對於所謂的總統在會見國軍將領的時候因為起立問題造成的一些風波我自己是有一些納悶就是說到底現在總統府安排移捷跟軍方跟國防部在移捷上的一個所謂的溝通上到底有什麼問題"},{"start":19178.61,"end":19190.017,"text":"我把它分成事前事中跟事後我以前的狀況跟你現在狀況到底相同首先其實總統歷齡的一個場合是一定會喊總統到嗎?"},{"start":19193.7,"end":19214.771,"text":"跟委員報告一般應該是會啦其實就我以前的經驗不是每個地方都會啦有些場合他會有喊總統到但有些場合其實也不會喊總統到但不管有喊總統到沒喊總統到一般來說總統進到比如說一個這個我們講說政務首長的會議或是說今天有軍事將領在的地方一般來講與會的人會怎麼樣"},{"start":19218.104,"end":19231.994,"text":"一般與會人應該會起立會起立嘛對不對那其實也通常一個慣性如果說今天沒有一個總統到了統一指令的話大家起來就可能就是個別起來嘛可是看到旁邊有人起來大家就會全部起來嘛這人之常情嘛對不對"},{"start":19234.59,"end":19255.985,"text":"我想委員問的話就是說當天的狀況確實是在我們的移結上面沒有做一個好好的溝通所以就這個部分這是我就要講問的第二個問題啦就是說到底現在的移結溝通的環節是怎麼樣?比方說我看到那個徐小新委員在質詢的時候你們會來給了一個交際科專員嘛是他來溝通移結嘛是嗎?"},{"start":19262.009,"end":19283.741,"text":"沒有這個是就因為這個部分我並不是很清楚但人是人人是聯誼市長是剛剛有提到就是說事前有做一些溝通那麼這個部分當然以剛剛聯誼市長講的為準不過在現場的時候我並沒有看到有任何的"},{"start":19284.141,"end":19284.461,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":19306.022,"end":19331.842,"text":"因為我們的認知是說他覺得說我們那個比較一個溫馨的場合嘛然後他說我們不用進去那我們認知是應該是那個以前的所以他認為不需要起立我們這段我們不知道但是你不知道那個誰知道我要跟部長說一下剛剛已經講是交際科的專員現在怎麼樣現在不是這個專員不是我沒有要否認就是說我的意思是說"},{"start":19333.283,"end":19349.53,"text":"那是誰在移節溝通上說不用站起來的嗎?沒有人這樣講沒有人這樣講?對,沒有人這樣講就通通誤會一場?對,那個那你這樣子陷將官為不義喔我剛剛已經跟部長說過了如果沒有人要求大家不用起立的話正常狀態下會怎麼樣?請問?應該是要站起來對,應該是要起立那顯然這些將官們都不懂移節囉"},{"start":19358.735,"end":19375.023,"text":"不管有沒有總統,喊不喊總統倒不是重點欸。這個你不能糊弄我喔。因為我在總統府工作過。各位委員報告,我們疏失的地方是我們沒有跟他們那個交際可以講清楚。然後所有將官到裡面,因為那是一個茶會。你這個說法,說實在話,我覺得就是在搪塞了。為什麼?"},{"start":19381.966,"end":19408.505,"text":"你今天跟我講沒...第一個要嘛就有人跟你溝通要不要站起來不用站起來要嘛就沒有人溝通不用站起來跟委員報告我們跟那個專員溝通的是說這個時間點我們國防部要不要有人進去就我們懲判當然要不要有人進去然後他們跟我們講說不用進去那我們疏失的地方是說沒有跟他們講清楚說那後面的這些相關的程序應該怎麼走"},{"start":19409.326,"end":19417.996,"text":"你到現在為止什麼都沒解釋清楚欸那到底是誰說不用站起來啊沒有人講沒有人講那部長來來來部長我跟你講你們讓總統背鍋了啦你沒有人講為什麼今天我們的將領們都做到將軍了"},{"start":19429.876,"end":19448.066,"text":"總統進來就算沒有人喊總統到你覺得他們該怎麼樣應該是一個圓形的一個作為的安排不是部長府裡的所有的會議或者是今天總統他們不管參加任何地方我管你是圓形座位還是方形座位啊不是嗎你剛剛已經講過一般是要怎麼樣"},{"start":19450.221,"end":19464.432,"text":"我這樣子講啦今天這個事情事前事終都沒做事後我覺得也是個問題就算發生今天沒有站起來的情況在以前總統府馬總統做法的話也不會當場去講什麼啦一定事後怎麼樣跟誰講"},{"start":19465.959,"end":19492.211,"text":"事由跟你講跟部長講不是嗎所以整件事情從前中後全部都粗暴才會有今天這個移節的問題那你這是現代總統於不義啊外面的報導出來變成是好像他這個很愛發飆啊第一天報導確實是如此啊沒有沒有這樣的一個狀況跟我說你們的澄清也賣很多拍啊我直接跟你講國防部第一天的澄清稿你有看過嗎你有沒有看過"},{"start":19493.931,"end":19515.019,"text":"我幫賴總統來跟你們講一下第一天澄清稿第一不澄清內容二不澄清摔文件是等你出來才澄清這澄清對總統的今天的尊嚴我比民進黨還在乎欸所以今天如果不是事實你們第一時間就要講清楚那到現在為止誰說不用站起來也講不清楚謝謝謝謝你們的自治強委員"},{"start":19525.29,"end":19539.982,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英委員上台質詢謝主席本席想邀請部長請顧部長"},{"start":19548.188,"end":19551.274,"text":"政府國防部有解嗎?因為在媒體報導當中這一次的美國軍火商"},{"start":19560.785,"end":19580.061,"text":"雷神公司他說他惡意提高了對外軍售價格造成我方的損失你在受訪的當時你說這一次是美方主動調查並告知美國軍售制度有防弊"},{"start":19581.002,"end":19581.343,"text":"請做說明。"},{"start":19604.127,"end":19630.385,"text":"跟委員報告有關這個退回這個款項的部分美方有初步告知那我剛剛在機密專報裡面報了那我想我就不以再公開來說明那剛剛在能夠有聽到機密專報的部分都有聽到我們美方的一個初步的一個給我們的一個照會那我想整個的部分整個要退回的款項應該還是要等美國整個調查程序完畢以後才能夠置信"},{"start":19630.745,"end":19643.524,"text":"是這個是民眾大家看到這個訊息都嚇一跳所以在這邊請教也要謝謝美方通知我們那請教因為他們有防備機制我們有沒有我們有沒有"},{"start":19644.489,"end":19665.338,"text":"跟委員報告,我剛剛都一再的回覆就是說因為我們是跟美國政府簽約的那美國政府要對我們負完全的責任所以美國是美國去跟雷神公司簽的不是我們跟雷神公司簽的所以我們現在的困難是我們沒有辦法去直接"},{"start":19666.538,"end":19687.472,"text":"對,雷神公司,我們是跟美國政府來就合約的雙方是我們跟美國政府聽到你真實的回答那我要請教部長這是常態還是少數的案例您說發生這個惡意對,類似到這樣子對,如果美國不告知那我們也不知道"},{"start":19688.452,"end":19700.64,"text":"報告這是極為罕見的一個案例還好你回答這樣子是極為罕見那當然您剛才也說了美國政府要負全責是嗎"},{"start":19702.103,"end":19719.299,"text":"美國政府會就因為跟我們有合約的是美國政府嘛所以美國政府當然要對我們負相關的這個責任包括不管是在法律上這個集合的專案的集合上面那等等這些都要負由他來負責任"},{"start":19721.054,"end":19748.354,"text":"這是目前國防部給人民的一個回應接下來本席要請問也就是軍購除了這一次的問題之外現在坊間大家都認為最嚴肅的一個議題還是研製所以在這樣的情況之下不管是這一些魚叉飛彈、重型魚雷這一些都有研製的問題是嗎?"},{"start":19751.083,"end":19775.137,"text":"我想還是站櫃師簡單跟委員報告好請做說明報告委員跟委員報告我們主要的項目在經過與美方協調之後目前只剩下年底交運的托二V跟目前仍在做產線測試準備的AGM-154C遠攻飛彈還有F16V-8拐動這三個軍購案目前仍在延長其他的已經慢慢都跟上進度"},{"start":19776.164,"end":19790.997,"text":"其實要慢慢跟上進度那三個延宕的部分我們有沒有預計要怎麼交回來呢?怎麼談判呢?結果如何?剛剛講拖四B的、二B的這個部分我們希望在年底以前可以交互"},{"start":19791.858,"end":19819.431,"text":"因為它原來產製的成品沒有通過測試現在已經通過測試了所以我想今年的第4季我們希望能夠全數交裝那F16V這個拐動的這個部分我們希望第4季的第一架機能夠出來以後我們希望還是在2026年能夠全數交運完畢這是我們跟美方的要求我們跟他們的要求另外一項"},{"start":19820.339,"end":19821.84,"text":"你所謂的競速,我們要延後多久可以給我們?"},{"start":19843.63,"end":19845.131,"text":"在原則上就在115年的"},{"start":19861.365,"end":19886.785,"text":"什麼時候交第一批?年底之前年底之前來交第一批本期之所以提問也就是不希望民眾他對我們的政府有這麼多這麼多的問號提出之後要說明清楚讓民眾還是對國家有信心這是非常的重要因為我們在之前看到國防部的監察長那麼他們公佈報告他說去年部長"},{"start":19887.526,"end":19915.144,"text":"他說去年的12月收到美國依照總統撥款權提供的軍備出現了彈藥過期包裝混亂無法使用甚至防彈被新造出來的這個圖片是潮濕發霉的連美國在台協會的人看過都說像是清掉"},{"start":19915.424,"end":19916.785,"text":"哪一小部分?你這做什麼組織呢?"},{"start":19944.18,"end":19945.221,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":19965.899,"end":19967.7,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":19993.93,"end":20006.875,"text":"所以外界對於整個就是說他去過度的去強調那小篇幅但是我們現在不是在推脫啦我們覺得既然有這樣子的一個"},{"start":20009.13,"end":20036.972,"text":"教育的過程有發生這些狀況我們是跟美方有積極交涉所以第二批的PTA美國的拜登總統已經剛宣布嘛也是5.67億這都是無償的軍演那這樣應該是高達清台幣差不多將近十億3.65加5.67十億就兩匹加起來近乎十億多這樣子第二批的部分我想一定他已經承諾一定會檢整好再交付給我們這樣子"},{"start":20038.768,"end":20065.904,"text":"部長談論到這裡最重要的就是最後這一句話而不是他交的品項很多很多元項目多數量多所以少部分如此我覺得我們不應該用這個來推動我承認我接受委員的意見就是說不管是怎麼樣都應該好好的檢視那所以第二次的PDA就是剛剛宣布了5.67億的部分我想一定會跟他雙方好好的"},{"start":20066.845,"end":20094.642,"text":"因此我們在國際關係裡頭我想國家的這個互動都應該秉持的平等互惠的這個原則我們中華民國在整個產業科技文化這些軟實力或者是民主的價值的這個發展上面絕對是世界村最重要的一員所以我們應當要好好的謹慎絕對不能再有這樣的一個情勢而且讓人民來恐慌不安對不對"},{"start":20095.767,"end":20123.474,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得美國就是因為非常重視台灣的價值不管在經濟安全在地緣政治在這個相關的這個這個第一島鏈的一個位置上面都來都然後在國際航運的這個這個如此頻繁的這個在台灣的周圍的航道上面他任何台海有事都會影響整個全球經濟非常非常巨大也會重創美國所以"},{"start":20124.294,"end":20148.463,"text":"這表示我們的重要性啊對那我剛剛提到的就是說他就是因為這樣你看兩次的PDA金額都是相當大一次是2點多億3.6一次是5.67億美金這個都是無常軍演要強化我們的後備戰力、部隊戰力跟我們的作戰韌性所以這個部分你要想想我們自己的預算我們都編列"},{"start":20150.724,"end":20154.406,"text":"本席之所以願意這麼多的時間給你充分的說明清楚主要的目的要讓國人安心這是第一個第二個有"},{"start":20174.346,"end":20174.366,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員"},{"start":20205.823,"end":20221.874,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來王宏威委員王宏威委員不在接下來我們請吳麗華委員上台諮詢謝謝主席有請顧部長"},{"start":20238.855,"end":20257.424,"text":"部長好,我在這邊想要讓您了解一件事情其實我在去年有接到族人一個陳情陳情的原因是說因為他們去要蓋房子要到縣府要去申請結果被打回來"},{"start":20258.504,"end":20273.18,"text":"那他才了解說原來他們是位在加東炸射靶場的境線區那我了解了之後呢今年更多人來連署400多人為什麼因為"},{"start":20274.341,"end":20275.523,"text":"我跟部長讓您瞭解一下"},{"start":20290.466,"end":20310.86,"text":"這個一開始跟我陳情的部落他們其實是在政府早期的千村政策民國四五十年就陸續搬到山下現在的縣居地那我去查呢他們什麼時候被放進來的我查到的是106年的公文還看不到"},{"start":20311.54,"end":20336.695,"text":"是到107年的時候他們突然就被放進來了影響到的有我們原鄉的話是來義鄉跟淳日鄉的9個部落那我再繼續去查呢他到底進線高度是多少啊結果發現呢107年的前後還不一樣像105年第4作戰指揮部的公文是寫限建30公尺"},{"start":20337.375,"end":20354.329,"text":"一百一十二年八軍團指揮部寫的是現建高度四十公尺那到底是怎麼一回事我再去查原來查到他其實是在八十年他用的是八十年的公告那之後有沒有呢沒有"},{"start":20354.969,"end":20370.627,"text":"就是能夠追到的就是80年的這份公告那實際上呢我們這個管制區它的限界範圍的劃定公告及管制作業辦法其實在77年的時候有這個法條出來"},{"start":20371.488,"end":20385.22,"text":"那麼我們看到他確實在80年的時候有做過公告那為什麼這個陳晴的人說他是在103年他去縣府要申請的時候被打回票原來是因為在103年7月1號"},{"start":20388.903,"end":20401.209,"text":"這個作業規定辦法有做過最新的一個修正但是我要講的就是說這個整個程序非常的混亂然後地方照理說應該會有說明會也沒有"},{"start":20403.39,"end":20423.249,"text":"那麼我看了這個辦法作業規定呢我也不知道到底有沒有落實舉個例子來講他說如果原有的這個高度他是超過這個現建標準他說要在他們的屋頂頂端要裝置警示器或者是依安全規定建議拆除等等給予補償等等我有問他們說也沒有"},{"start":20426.932,"end":20450.735,"text":"那如果說依照它的規定如果是新建的這些建物就是違建要命令強制拆除好像也沒這麼做甚至於在這個作業規定裡面也有提到說如果對地方發展不至於造成重大影響可以由全責社管單位可以跟當地政府協商等等取代軍事限制之管制"},{"start":20451.015,"end":20451.615,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":20468.526,"end":20492.902,"text":"謝謝國防部在8月15號有去開一個調整評估的會議我們在9月16號也有正式發函因為地方連署的人非常多我也知道國防部在9月23號也有去地方跟地方的鄉長民意代表做說明我現在其實來這邊主要就是要讓您了解"},{"start":20493.502,"end":20516.203,"text":"因為這個問題越來越多人意識到會影響到明年國土計劃法上路之後他們的居住的正義權益而且最嚴重的是我們是位在山區我們的海拔其實都在75米以上像那個我接到陳情的他已經算最低的了他是75米到150米"},{"start":20518.445,"end":20539.119,"text":"所以這個辦法一限制下來我們可能很多很多都不能蓋房子也沒有辦法去做我們申請史建造這些影響很大那我希望說這個部分這個問題能夠被解決所以我特別要在這個地方請教一下那最後的結果到底如何"},{"start":20542.267,"end":20561.432,"text":"委員好,我是空軍參謀長。空軍接獲到這樣子的訊息以後,我們在前參謀長的指示下在今年的5月我們就成立了任務編組。那到現在為止我們也開了9次的管制會議。那這個過程當中我們"},{"start":20564.773,"end":20579.289,"text":"也把80年跟81年公告的這個也拿出來是審認的確是是不合理我們現在已經有研究好這個縮小範圍的這個這個情況比例地方的發展"},{"start":20582.672,"end":20604.749,"text":"那進度的話跟委員報告我們預計在11月底今年11月底會到屏東縣政府因為主管單位也在屏東縣政府會跟屏東縣政府說明之後預計明年我們會上案子到國防部國防部再轉到內政部一起做會選公告以上跟委員報告"},{"start":20605.99,"end":20627.463,"text":"因為我一直在抓這個騎乘啦明年4月30號我們國土計劃法就會正式上路5月開始很多人就會開始到地方的縣市政府去申請合法化的程序所以我希望說因為看起來那個103年7月他們受到限制呢不能去蓋房子"},{"start":20628.283,"end":20655.201,"text":"到現在113年那我希望說已經10年了希望可以盡快的完成公告程序那我也希望可以會同本席到地方去辦理說明會那更重要的是絕對受到軍事管制禁憲件的應該不是只有我接受陳情的這個地方可能很多地方還渾然不察所以我希望說能夠全面的來通盤的檢視這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":20658.743,"end":20670.13,"text":"可以做一個全面的評估。我們辦理的狀況再隨時跟委員保持聯繫,那也跟地方做溝通。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝吳麗華委員。顧部長請回。"},{"start":20684.534,"end":20688.078,"text":"邱志偉委員不在陳庭菲委員不在吳思瑤委員不在蔡毅委員不在"},{"start":20703.786,"end":20714.32,"text":"高金素梅高金素梅高金素梅委員不在。蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在。"},{"start":20716.738,"end":20742.077,"text":"以登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關單位與書面於兩週內提供以上如有涉及機密部分請確實依相關的保密規定辦理本日會議到此結束上會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","委員發言時間":"08:30:34 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及委員李燕秀等17人分別擬具《都市更新條例》第65條條文修正草案。討論事項和並詢答委員李燕秀王宏威說明提案要指內政部政務次長董建宏報告委員蘇巧慧等21人質詢由內政部部長劉世芳及相關人員答覆說明登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員張嘉郡所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會。"},{"start":1898.872,"end":1919.432,"text":"一條決議都市更新條例第65條條文修正草案等三案應照行政院提案通過而並按審查完据擬具審查報告提報院會討論不須交由黨團協商並推行張昭吉委員紅錄於院會討論時做補充說明通過附帶決議一項10月2日3日因颱風停止上班該二日會議未舉行宣讀完畢"},{"start":1923.357,"end":1934.934,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":1940.618,"end":1949.882,"text":"人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。而都市計劃法審查委員廖偉祥等17人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。而都市計劃法審查委員廖偉祥等17人"},{"start":1962.748,"end":1990.87,"text":"條之一條之一條文修正草案案審查委員楊瓊英等16人委員黃建豪等19人委員王玉敏等17人委員徐巧欣等19人分別擬具《都市計劃法》第83條之一條文修正草案案。審查委員林沛翔等20人擬具《都市計劃法》第85條條文修正草案案。審查委員廖先祥等16人擬具《都市計劃法》第19條及第82條條文修正草案案。審查委員羅廷偉等20人擬具《都市計劃法》第83條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":1996.106,"end":2014.432,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22次全體委員會議第"},{"start":2026.823,"end":2035.29,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。審查委員張嘉郡委員羅廷偉委員楊瓊瑛委員王玉敏委員內政部長劉世芳"},{"start":2054.886,"end":2081.14,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":2084.668,"end":2112.745,"text":"國土管理署署長吳興修署長都市計劃組國土署都市計劃組組長廖耀東組長檢任政工程師陳富毅法令政策科科長許家緯政工程師蔡婉容"},{"start":2115.367,"end":2144.582,"text":"一條文修正草案案案案。 消防署副署長馮俊毅副署長整體應變組組長劉鴻儒預防調查組科長李憲忠法務部參事廖江憲財政部國庫署副組長李信芬專門委員何惠麗"},{"start":2148.639,"end":2174.241,"text":"衛生福利部社會救助及社公司司長蘇昭儒社會及家庭署科長陳景瑜文化部文化資產局綜合規劃組專門委員紀嘉琳科長許盈和古蹟聚落組專門委員游英俊"},{"start":2176.152,"end":2195.48,"text":"一條文修正草案、行政院主計總署公務預算處檢任視察李培元、傅坤祺總召、張志倫委員、廖先祥委員、林佩祥委員。"},{"start":2206.705,"end":2209.608,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。cellence 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具"},{"start":2228.803,"end":2246.048,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 主席、各位委員、部長、在座關心港口廊條款的各位好朋友們,大家早安。生老病史是每一個人不分貧富都必定會經歷的生命歷程。生有所養,老有所依。"},{"start":2246.588,"end":2261.602,"text":"有所安是安樂社會的一個象徵那本席今天所修訂的殯葬管理條例二十一條之一俗稱為港寇郎條款將原本僅限於低收入家庭"},{"start":2262.042,"end":2269.765,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例"},{"start":2287.332,"end":2291.373,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":2312.458,"end":2324.949,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第"},{"start":2338.72,"end":2346.563,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":2366.431,"end":2372.297,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第"},{"start":2389.497,"end":2412.118,"text":"好,謝謝昭偉。《殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一》修改條文,我們希望一起來支持。我想,包括劉部長,之前擔任劉委員的時候也有提案過。我們一起來支持中低收入戶在輔助上,在救濟上的一個幫助。我想各縣市都因為財政收入不一,導致減免的標準不一樣。有的減半,有的部分減免。"},{"start":2412.839,"end":2417.823,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":2429.173,"end":2443.246,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":2453.795,"end":2473.4,"text":"我們希望都能夠納入到這一次設施免費的一個對象之一將中低收入戶一起來比照低收入戶所以在這一次我們非常注重這樣子的一個殯葬管理條例的修法也非常感謝昭緯能夠排這個案另外都市計劃法第83條之一的條文修正我要一併說明"},{"start":2474.6,"end":2495.752,"text":"在都市計劃區的一個公共設施保留地進行容積移轉都是為了政府在財政壓力下加速取得公共設施保留地以改善整個城市的一個生活環境民國97年12月19日就已經修正都市計劃法第83條之一針裂了一個折角"},{"start":2496.673,"end":2498.775,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":2514.386,"end":2526.991,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":2536.075,"end":2539.377,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":2562.367,"end":2574.191,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":2586.275,"end":2614.671,"text":"各縣市政府推動市政建設來使整體能夠有所進步都市機能能夠有所提升所以在這一次八三條之一的條文修正將公共設施保留地新聘納入容積移轉的規範並授權地方政府來訂定容積代金制度的一個收支保管及運用方式提升整體的都市環境水準以上提案說明跟大家一併報告謝謝"},{"start":2619.689,"end":2624.005,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:謝謝羅廷偉委員接下來我們請楊瓊英委員提案說明"},{"start":2631.701,"end":2646.092,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．事由：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．事由．審查委員劉建國等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．事由．審查委員劉建國等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．事由．審查委員劉建國等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．審查委員劉建國等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案"},{"start":2653.357,"end":2676.025,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案 授權地方政府妥適適用,不僅它不利於地方統籌推動公共建設,亦造成都市不均衡的發展。所以擬具《都市計劃法》第83條之一條文修正。那麼同時要說明我們的這個隆基帶轉的這個部分是在民國97年的法律。"},{"start":2677.725,"end":2705.728,"text":"一直到民國一百年以台中市我們正式升格為直轄市所以在整個都市的一個建設跟發展有不一樣的樣態但是如果屈就於目前的條例會嚴重的影響到我們整個以台中市22區的一個均衡發展所以因此我們特別提出第83條之一公共設施保留地資取得及我們加上及"},{"start":2706.468,"end":2729.987,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案、審批這三個字。同時我們也在第二項貸金之用途因專款專用用於取得與接受基地同一個直轄市、縣市、都市、計劃區之公共設施保留地及興辦工程與相關的作業費用相關的收支保管"},{"start":2730.407,"end":2746.913,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第"},{"start":2760.133,"end":2764.673,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:謝謝楊瓊怡委員。我們接下來請王育敏委員提案說明。"},{"start":2770.57,"end":2771.791,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案 。"},{"start":2790.589,"end":2796.014,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":2809.787,"end":2814.129,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":2826.834,"end":2828.855,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案件事項審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":2850.64,"end":2851.64,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":2866.386,"end":2868.007,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":2892.179,"end":2904.55,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":2920.543,"end":2921.263,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":2949.77,"end":2955.678,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":2973.203,"end":2979.345,"text":"三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案 案 。感謝現場各位委員、感謝國長和書長分析今天所提出的殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案,這個條文等七年前我們有修正過,那個時候"},{"start":2993.695,"end":2994.155,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3015.573,"end":3017.174,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。厲 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。厲"},{"start":3031.667,"end":3032.187,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 lapt."},{"start":3032.187,"end":3033.888,"text":"經濟統計全國經濟修理課九九年為之有十幾萬人,吟屬有二十七萬幾人,以及社會救助的標準,輝瑞多這間家庭修理是等兩萬一千三百四十五課,以下。"},{"start":3049.906,"end":3058.348,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":3076.553,"end":3081.159,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":3091.089,"end":3097.856,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。厲 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。厲 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。厲"},{"start":3116.672,"end":3117.695,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":3131.43,"end":3149.855,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":3160.52,"end":3171.836,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":3177.884,"end":3199.345,"text":"但是呢事實上每一位這個過世的身後是可能需要花費到的這個傷臟費用可能加總起來所以超過15萬對弱勢族群來說是極為沉重的負擔而全國有26萬2000多戶的低收入戶自身及家屬這幾年來因為有殯葬管理條例"},{"start":3200.406,"end":3214.998,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案的幫助可以不用再為身後事來擔心更不會出現沒錢辦理身後事的人倫悲歌。《殯葬管理條例》條款已經施行多年在社會上協助弱勢族群辦理身後事"},{"start":3215.759,"end":3237.424,"text":"一條的團體發現中低收入戶的經濟條件也不寬裕,他們的生活過得並不會比低收入戶好,他們的身後事的問題也急需政府的關懷與協助。經查各職場市及縣市政府的喪葬補助的相關規定,僅雲林縣台中市有納入中低收入戶,"},{"start":3238.064,"end":3241.848,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":3254.44,"end":3282.543,"text":"一條本於尊重生命的精神以及對於經濟弱勢族群的照顧請大家一起來支持本席所提的《殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案》擬具擴大補助範圍納入中低收入戶以減輕經濟弱勢族群本身及家人的負擔建構美好的幸福社會另外減輕縣市政府的負擔所需的經費建議由中央政府統一編列指引謝謝"},{"start":3289.009,"end":3296.374,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:謝謝徐宇貞委員。接下來我們請廖先祥委員提案說明。廖先祥委員提案說明。"},{"start":3312.619,"end":3318.887,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":3328.32,"end":3354.321,"text":"因此在現行的都市計劃法第19條中有規範各級都市計劃委員會一於六十天內完成審議但情形特殊者其審議期間得予延長延長以六十天為限我就代表說其實在都市計劃法裡面有規範時間的一個時效性的限制然而實際上送到內政部能夠在一百二十天內完成審議通過的案件是少之又少的"},{"start":3354.801,"end":3361.911,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條"},{"start":3369.983,"end":3373.705,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":3393.373,"end":3418.801,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案的確實也是一個不合理過短的一個時間因此本次修法建議將延長60天的規定予以放寬延長為一年較符合實際所需要審議的時間但同時為了避免地方的建設案件卡在內政部本次修法也增加審議期間超過如果超過法定期間未審閉也未退回的話可以由函報機關進行發布以利由時效"},{"start":3422.833,"end":3452.042,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案。厲現行都市計劃委員會審核通過後需經內政部核定的計劃因為也沒有法定的審議期間而在都市計劃審議的過程中已經有多層的都市計劃委員會都已經進行了層層的把關因此本次修法也賦予內政部的法定審查期間賦予它十天內必須有準博的一個規定欲期事為核定由韓報機關進行發布實施以上敬請各位委員支持謝謝"},{"start":3454.988,"end":3461.789,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:好,謝謝廖先生委員。接下來我們請林佩祥委員提案說明。"},{"start":3472.746,"end":3497.117,"text":"謝謝昭偉及在場的所有委員都市計劃法第85條線型條文是從民國九十一年的時候為了配合動省而做出的修正然而我國地方制度法自動省之後修正很多次尤其在一百零三年時對地方自治的制度做出很大的幅度改革給予地方政府最大的施政自主權這是全國的共識"},{"start":3498.357,"end":3518.034,"text":"本席認為現行都計法85條之規定變相地限制地方政府依據各別的條件、狀況、需求等因素來實踐地方自治的施政空間,這是與時代背道而馳的。再從實際面來看,全國平均人口密度每平方公里約647人,台灣省非六都地區約276.3人,"},{"start":3523.098,"end":3536.297,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例四十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例五十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例六十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例六十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例六十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例六十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例六十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例六十一條文修正草"},{"start":3536.889,"end":3557.42,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草"},{"start":3563.063,"end":3574.815,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第2次全體委員會第3次審查委員會第4次審查委員會第5次審查委員會第6次審查委員會第7次審查委員會第8次審查委員會第9次審查委員會第10次審查委員會第11次審查委員會第12次審查委員會第13次審查委員會第14次審查委員會第14次審查委員會第15次審查委員會第16次審查委員會第17次審查委員會第18次審查委員會第18次審查委員會第19次審查委員會第19次審查委員會第20次審查委員會第21次審查委"},{"start":3576.69,"end":3587.698,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":3601.829,"end":3616.619,"text":"一條文修正草案 因此應盡速修訂都市計劃法第85條當該法實則的細項統一放權給各縣市政府自行制定若有認為部分地區的條件尚不宜由地方政府自行"},{"start":3617.671,"end":3645.541,"text":"一條定定的考慮則應由修正都計法台灣審實施細則第34之三條設定指標標準對各縣市政府予以區別讓人口密集老屋占比卻偏高向新竹、嘉義、基隆市等地區排除於該條件之外謝謝每位參與這個連署的委員也謝謝你們讓都計法第85條在這邊有充分的討論最後面請所有委員支持謝謝大家"},{"start":3647.784,"end":3648.625,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":3662.108,"end":3676.867,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":3679.77,"end":3680.811,"text":"一條文修正草案案"},{"start":3710.19,"end":3726.199,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":3738.166,"end":3739.646,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":3760.791,"end":3773.702,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":3786.573,"end":3790.395,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":3812.904,"end":3818.745,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":3844.209,"end":3852.199,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:謝謝黃建豪委員。我們接下來請內政部劉部長釋芳報告。兩案一併報告。"},{"start":3863.454,"end":3883.965,"text":"主席徐昭偉各位委員女士先生大家早今天貴委員會召開會議就大院委員提案之并葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案及都市計劃法部分條文修正草案進行審議請代表內政部向貴委員會提出報告"},{"start":3884.965,"end":3901.301,"text":"請請各位委員指教並對於委員關心內政部業管相關議題表示敬佩與感謝第一有關殯葬管理條例的部分有關丁委員學忠等16人張委員嘉俊等29人劉委員建國等16人徐委員余珍等19人"},{"start":3902.462,"end":3916.831,"text":"羅委員田偉等17人以及吳委員立法等16人本次所提并葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案本部意見如下一本條例在一百零六年徵定第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":3918.212,"end":3920.913,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":3934.858,"end":3962.908,"text":"社會救助法及相關社福資源獲得一定的協助對於如何擴大免費適用對象均需審慎評估第二有關委員提案針對免費對象納入中低收入戶部分鑒於其總人數與低收入戶相當如使用公立殯葬設施免收費用衍生的財政影響不容小覷如何減免費用可在進一步思考"},{"start":3963.268,"end":3963.768,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。cellence."},{"start":3963.768,"end":3968.552,"text":"至於其他希望納入免費的對象經過本部徵詢各地方政府及相關機關的部會意見仍有與現行社會福利資源重疊實際人數較難估計地方與中央編列經費等等的困難點"},{"start":3980.66,"end":3996.028,"text":"一條文修正草案、以及基於地方權責事項以回歸地方個案處理等問題執行上,恐有疑慮本次提案試涉中央及地方政府重大財政支出,尚需考量各地方政府及中央財主機關之意見審慎研著。"},{"start":3998.329,"end":4020.103,"text":"二有關都市計劃法的部分一廖先祥黃建豪林佩祥蘇清泉委員等16人提案修正第十九條修正有關各級都市計劃委員會審議期限得延長並以一年為限為審議完畢視為通過以及修正第八十二條增訂內政部合併計劃應於十日內為合併與否之決定"},{"start":4024.426,"end":4026.587,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":4046.38,"end":4055.986,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第"},{"start":4071.516,"end":4092.444,"text":"本二條條文建議維持現行的規定第二王玉敏委員等17人黃建豪委員等19人楊瓊英、顏寬恒委員等16人廖偉祥、劉許廷等17人羅廷偉、林佩祥等20人提案修正第83條之一放寬容積移轉貸金用途"},{"start":4093.024,"end":4110.491,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草"},{"start":4120.154,"end":4131.182,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":4146.454,"end":4160.988,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委"},{"start":4162.449,"end":4187.003,"text":"三、徐巧欣委員等19人提案修正第83條之一刪除具紀念性或藝術價值之建築與歷史建築的土地得以容積移轉本條條文於九十一年修法訂定的時候系考量當時文化資產保存法的容積移轉規定僅限於古蹟所定著之私有土地保存用地或保存區"},{"start":4188.304,"end":4205.616,"text":"會包括紀念建築與歷史建築原與納入本條文得以適用。 112年11月29日修正公佈之《文化資產保存法》第41條條文已經增列歷史建築及紀念建築之私有土地易得辦理容積與轉"},{"start":4206.917,"end":4233.983,"text":"一條受權訂定之辦法克正辦理法治作業程序為避免同一事項與文化資產保存法與本法重複規定本部贊同委員的提案條文第四林沛翔委員等20人提案修正第85條增訂縣市政府得自行訂定都市計劃法施行細則以取得無償容積獎勵提高民眾都更意願"},{"start":4235.163,"end":4253.47,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 《都市計劃法》省市施行細則則為補充本法之細節性及執行四項規定本條條文於九十一年修正契金除各直轄市政府訂定各該直轄市施行細則外台灣省施行細則則由內政部訂定監察院在九十九年間"},{"start":4254.07,"end":4272.005,"text":"一條文修正草案案 為了容積管理失控提出糾正本部經過與各地方政府研商之後與都市計劃法台灣省實行細則訂定容積獎勵上限的規定也就是說一般地區基準容積20%都市更新地區50%"},{"start":4273.846,"end":4277.629,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":4290.521,"end":4309.726,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．指定都市計劃法各該縣市施行細則來突破規定本條建議維持現行規定綜合上述對於都市計劃審議效率的部分內政部與各地方政府將共同精進容積已轉待今的運用基於公平性應該不得跨區及挪作"},{"start":4310.106,"end":4330.671,"text":"一條建設經費使用紀念性建築與歷史建築適用容積移轉文化資產保存法已經增訂規定贊同委員的提案關於增訂縣市政府得制定都市計劃法縣市施行細則的規定基於榮獎規定應全國一致規範維持現行條文以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝好謝謝劉部長"},{"start":4338.806,"end":4340.069,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":4347.148,"end":4375.555,"text":"我們現在進行詢答委員質詢前原例做以下幾點宣告一本會委員發言的時間五分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘非本會委員發言時間五分鐘上午十點三十分截止發言登記臨時提案截止提出時間是十一點"},{"start":4377.106,"end":4383.55,"text":"一條文修正草案 與本會委員詢答完畢後處理。請問各位同仁有沒有意見?"},{"start":4414.487,"end":4415.967,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":4445.862,"end":4446.663,"text":"一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4457.899,"end":4478.655,"text":"委員好部長今天在質詢的一開始我想先跟您請教一個個案這是我們在上個月9月30號的時候新北市土城區我們的清水所所長清水派出所的所長劉中興很不幸的在執行一般臨檢的時候發現有異狀結果駕駛呢竟然拒檢還逃逸所以我們所長很盡責抓著車子結果竟然被脫行最後還被撞擊而死亡"},{"start":4486.641,"end":4511.76,"text":"那我想請問部長以這樣的一個案例劉所長這樣子的一個案例我想大家都非常傷痛啊那以內政部的角度來講您認為他符不符合因公殉職是謝謝委員的關心尤其對於這位優秀的殉職的這個派出所所長是那我想我們也符合而且跟委員報告因為我們在上上個月的時候已經預告這是因公殉職一定會符合最高的這個撫恤的規定"},{"start":4512.981,"end":4518.145,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委會第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體"},{"start":4534.259,"end":4535.2,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":4550.486,"end":4552.127,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":4577.304,"end":4592.137,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":4603.027,"end":4608.291,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":4622.683,"end":4625.645,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":4648.1,"end":4662.319,"text":"一條文有提到合法建築物嘛對不對那其實在我們現行的法規裡面有提到法規條文裡面有提到合法建築物這幾個字這個名詞的其實一共有大概像七項的法規法條啊"},{"start":4663.741,"end":4664.961,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":4685.567,"end":4695.956,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委"},{"start":4708.767,"end":4716.732,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":4727.819,"end":4736.086,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第三十"},{"start":4755.081,"end":4757.343,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":4775.234,"end":4775.775,"text":"一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4795.296,"end":4795.736,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4819.218,"end":4824.484,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":4841.582,"end":4854.213,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":4865.319,"end":4866.96,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":4895.276,"end":4900.544,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":4910.558,"end":4911.338,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":4943.54,"end":4944.861,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":4969.022,"end":4984.615,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次"},{"start":4995.624,"end":5010.929,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":5023.793,"end":5049.512,"text":"可是部長我要跟你報告一下從這個今年二月大家可以看到這個金榮這個員警在執勤台上的時候被台貨車衝撞致死跟在七月的時候三重有一個警員在路邊執勤的時候被酒駕撞死以及這土城所長這個案子那就我現在得知我們這個新法現在修正過後我們現在金榮那位的警員他現在的這個申請案還沒有通過"},{"start":5050.393,"end":5064.637,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員"},{"start":5073.201,"end":5073.782,"text":"一條文修正草案案"},{"start":5093.638,"end":5097.804,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":5109.682,"end":5133.276,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。厲覽事上苦人多這也是肝苦人條款那這個其實這個法令在低收入戶的部分在106年就已經通過了針對經濟有困頓困難者需要當地政府的認定可以免收火葬費跟塔位那所以我請問一下部長在你們今天的回覆當中有非常多的問題那本席想要來請教"},{"start":5134.617,"end":5153.243,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草"},{"start":5163.706,"end":5165.266,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":5187.639,"end":5198.606,"text":"就是以現在現行的法令現在的二十一條之一因為現在只有包含低收入戶嘛他是可以就是不用去免收這個費用大概是多少錢?"},{"start":5200.473,"end":5203.577,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":5220.276,"end":5234.147,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員"},{"start":5242.774,"end":5244.957,"text":"二十一條文修正草案案 案件的內政部提供的內政部提供的內政部"},{"start":5258.357,"end":5273.147,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":5284.835,"end":5295.899,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第"},{"start":5300.854,"end":5304.035,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":5326.559,"end":5330.821,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":5352.811,"end":5357.115,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":5370.788,"end":5371.288,"text":"審查委員審查委員審查委員審查"},{"start":5396.755,"end":5405.583,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會"},{"start":5415.111,"end":5443.015,"text":"我們在殯葬管理條例裡面大部分是在於設施設備的免費但是還有殯葬服務這一塊那殯葬服務這一塊每個地方政府包括都市計劃或非都市計劃裡面都差非常的多所以這個非常難來估算不好意思因為剛剛你有預計的經費就是一億多嘛對不對沒有沒有我跟委員報告我們現在的推算還是根據地方縣市政府所支付的費用評估的一個統計表而已"},{"start":5444.377,"end":5448.724,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:所以部長那你還有別的數據可以提供嗎?我認為還是要跟部長拜託啦。"},{"start":5449.963,"end":5475.717,"text":"你當時在當立法委員的時候就已經有提出來相關的修法那我相信現在貴為部長一定要來體貼這些乾坤朗我非常的體貼但是我跟委員報告現在所提出的經費不是全部由中央完全來吸收縣市地方政府要根據社會救助法跟殯葬設施管理條例要能夠吸收一部分包括新北市政府都不一定百分之百完全同意我完全了解"},{"start":5478.598,"end":5486.609,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第"},{"start":5495.18,"end":5509.125,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會議內政委員會議主席劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12會議內政委員會議主席劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12會議內政委員會議主席劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12會議內政委員會議主席劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正�"},{"start":5525.52,"end":5529.281,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:謝謝張智倫委員。接下來請麥玉珍委員。我要請教一下部長認同投資交易就是投資未來這個計劃嗎?"},{"start":5556.979,"end":5560.4,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":5571.466,"end":5583.054,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第"},{"start":5598.706,"end":5614.806,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:所以請教關於這個個案就是建國啤酒廠在上個月重新提交內政部都市計劃委員會目前進度如何是否可以加快進度呢這個部分"},{"start":5615.52,"end":5627.511,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":5643.68,"end":5657.525,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":5666.489,"end":5668.151,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":5686.212,"end":5690.296,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":5703.147,"end":5704.368,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員審查委員"},{"start":5730.587,"end":5751.269,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":5753.669,"end":5769.403,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":5774.508,"end":5783.302,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 現在是沒有辦法來做這一件事。好重點來了你說會協助原住民就是房屋合法化嘛但是在合法前的話就"},{"start":5785.305,"end":5801.974,"text":"一條文修正草案案件提示就是要取得評估報告這一筆費用就是上百萬對於我們原住民的朋友來說就是非常負擔的內政部有這個怎麼樣如何去協助還有我們國土計劃法在第23條之中針對"},{"start":5805.356,"end":5817.863,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":5831.732,"end":5840.851,"text":"規則訂定出來讓我們原住民朋友可以安心可以嗎這個部分這個部分我們會跟原民會加速談因為其實"},{"start":5841.653,"end":5844.775,"text":"能夠有爭議性的條例已經變得很少了這個部分原民會提出來我們會加速跟他們出來談判所以我們國土計畫實施稱農地總量的不變有八十萬公頃的以上的可耕地的面積但是呢依據2017年農委會的調查只有六十八公頃的農耕"},{"start":5868.127,"end":5874.29,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。cellence."},{"start":5874.29,"end":5880.513,"text":"請問部長面積差了近百分之十五這樣這些出來的土地從哪裡來的這樣子是數據是"},{"start":5883.894,"end":5906.926,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 跟委員報告啦,因為耕地在這個農發條例裡面它也有定義,但是農業地區它在農發條例也有定義,這兩個定義是不一樣,那基本上我們所謂的這一個郭陸公農分區裡面我們作為農一、農二、農三、農四這一些可以發展的用地,它並不完全是耕地,但是事實上是屬於農業發展,也就是說"},{"start":5909.087,"end":5918.514,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":5930.842,"end":5941.993,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":5954.656,"end":5963.741,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":5976.328,"end":5982.456,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":5994.452,"end":6012.944,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":6023.431,"end":6026.232,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":6052.279,"end":6067.164,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":6085.159,"end":6086.801,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請部長。部長早安。早,黃委員早。我們今天在審查這個殯葬,我們說這個叫做殯葬條款。"},{"start":6099.986,"end":6101.587,"text":"一條文修正草案案"},{"start":6115.751,"end":6121.637,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":6135.199,"end":6146.945,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":6153.629,"end":6172.996,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":6183.151,"end":6188.477,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第二十一條文修正草案．立法院第12會議第二十一條文修正草案．立法院第12會議第三會議"},{"start":6198.703,"end":6201.245,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":6223.803,"end":6229.806,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草"},{"start":6253.078,"end":6256.199,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":6276.175,"end":6277.636,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":6300.776,"end":6302.937,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":6326.229,"end":6327.85,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":6342.754,"end":6350.719,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":6372.714,"end":6377.379,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":6390.073,"end":6396.275,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":6416.34,"end":6421.323,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":6433.149,"end":6450.906,"text":"三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案 案件中有太多的事情讓那個新聞一下就結束有可能還有再加上目前像昨天台東跟屏東之間又大規模的崩塌我們很多幫忙救災的現場的工程員其實都相當的危險"},{"start":6451.807,"end":6467.263,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":6474.946,"end":6476.747,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":6502.216,"end":6526.884,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":6537.878,"end":6549.356,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員"},{"start":6551.015,"end":6552.635,"text":"之一條文修正草案案。厲 審查委員"},{"start":6573.208,"end":6592.875,"text":"五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案�"},{"start":6603.571,"end":6618.363,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":6633.496,"end":6635.476,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":6661.411,"end":6677.136,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":6690.367,"end":6710.932,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":6728.574,"end":6743.528,"text":"三五個人就做得到?每個縣市來喔?你再說三五個人你做得到?欸我也當過民政局長欸你做得到?然後中間都不會有弊端"},{"start":6744.673,"end":6745.794,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":6762.574,"end":6791.573,"text":"我們現在代理主席的他也當過地方行政首長啊對不對他如果要宣布他所管轄的地方所有的都免費他有沒有這個權責有有嘛對不對那你如果這樣的情況照這個法律我們不是反對只是中央第一個沒有這個能力第二個你遏制了地方自治的基本精神對不對而且我再請問一下"},{"start":6792.95,"end":6816.767,"text":"各縣市政府：我不管是社會局社會科：對於殯葬管理條例今天所說的裡面是不是很多的縣市政府都有補助了社會救助他們就有一些補助了有嘛吼有嘛都有補助了嘛對不對社會救助的科目跟我們今天所要審的殯葬管理條例科目有沒有一樣"},{"start":6818.885,"end":6820.366,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案案件"},{"start":6840.889,"end":6853.24,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員"},{"start":6863.104,"end":6879.71,"text":"對啦我擔心的就是這個啦我們不是說中立說如果確實有需要的其實在地方在社會救助的部分地方都有處理了啦那我們如何去放框去什麼的我覺得可以討論但如果說錢全部都中央我覺得這個會亂掉啦"},{"start":6881.991,"end":6887.773,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":6901.039,"end":6919.671,"text":"對啦齁我覺得齁這個齁大家等一下可以思考一下另外齁我想齁就今天這個啊我想請問一下這個國土署署長啊齁欸欸欸市長先不要跑寵物的殯葬是內政部管的嗎?"},{"start":6921.498,"end":6923.101,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6931.65,"end":6944.519,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正"},{"start":6958.479,"end":6960.041,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":6976.957,"end":6979.779,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":6993.117,"end":7003.384,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第"},{"start":7015.532,"end":7022.214,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":7037.865,"end":7045.409,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":7055.24,"end":7057.862,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":7074.042,"end":7100.292,"text":"我跟妳講齁寵物的這個東西我認為要解決啦阿也不是馬上要解決但是一定要跟國土署這邊有商量才可以處理同樣的我就是要今天的都市計畫要修正像這個問題如果地方就說可以了那你們中央要審阿十天內沒有審我們地方就可以了阿這樣你怎麼辦你可以管嗎因為過去的經驗來講"},{"start":7102.236,"end":7130.051,"text":"有爭議案件都不可能是這樣子來處理這樣反而會造成這個案子為什麼會延後嚴重落後其實有些委員會認為那既然要扛這個責任他不如把他全案退回那反而會讓整個事情變得更難處理我就簡單的說舉這個例子嘛對不對那如果兵戰外人有的縣市政府說都市計畫內的土地可以用啊在住宅區旁邊就有啊你國土署要也沒有辦法表示意見那以後台灣的"},{"start":7131.397,"end":7150.122,"text":"國土規劃怎麼辦?組長你有沒有想過這個問題?有,所以現在為什麼我們還是都要求地方的這個條一定要經過中央通過才可以。我只是簡單點出就會遇到幾個問題啦,我們等一下要討論法律條文的時候我們再好好的討論,謝謝。謝謝張昭偉接下來請王美惠委員。"},{"start":7164.7,"end":7169.823,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．李柏毅委員審查後休息5分鐘。"},{"start":7184.601,"end":7211.594,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第二十一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第二十一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第二十一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第二十一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第二十一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第三十一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第三十一條文�"},{"start":7214.38,"end":7230.774,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第"},{"start":7243.964,"end":7259.22,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案件事項審查委員丁學忠等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案件事項審查委員丁學忠等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件事項審查委員丁學忠等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件事項審查委員丁學忠等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件事項審查委員丁學忠等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件事�"},{"start":7267.284,"end":7270.145,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":7295.672,"end":7321.625,"text":"我再加45來積極來協調,看看有沒有辦法找到地,因為後面的公務當然就是說未來他們有沒有計劃要企劃要做這些事情都要搭配因為我覺得在基督教講他的前程,他還有一個基督教訪問那裡,你如果去台,會走到沙灘後面,會顧不上"},{"start":7325.458,"end":7330.683,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":7353.669,"end":7364.356,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":7377.028,"end":7397.475,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員丁學忠等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員丁學忠等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員丁學忠等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員丁學忠等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員丁學忠等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一"},{"start":7403.837,"end":7404.277,"text":"審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":7427.09,"end":7434.618,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":7446.772,"end":7451.114,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案的問題。來,補充答案。來,補充答案。來,補充答案。來,補充答案。來,補充答案。來,補充答案。來,補充答案。"},{"start":7465.699,"end":7466.84,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案：厲 審查委員"},{"start":7489.926,"end":7492.868,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":7500.267,"end":7512.352,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":7523.582,"end":7524.503,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":7553.702,"end":7557.326,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":7573.201,"end":7582.269,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案、審查委員等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案、審查委員等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案、審查委員等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案、審查委員等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案、審查委員等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案、審查委員等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草"},{"start":7599.224,"end":7605.913,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":7616.025,"end":7617.587,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":7633.084,"end":7635.885,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7658.592,"end":7659.613,"text":"十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委會第12屆第2會期內政委會第12屆第2會期內政委會第12屆第2會期內政委會"},{"start":7679.796,"end":7683.279,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":7709.417,"end":7711.058,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":7732.516,"end":7739.561,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":7767.637,"end":7768.038,"text":"一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7778.837,"end":7801.757,"text":"我不知道司長有沒有地方政府的經驗那署長我知道有啦我沒有其實今天的兩個條例包含殯葬管理條例第二十一條的修正以及都市計劃法第83條以及85條的修正其實都是地方自治項目這我們很清楚我來解釋一下"},{"start":7802.518,"end":7819.05,"text":"兵戰管理條例第二十一條裡面如果要針對中低收入以及低收入免費來做一個討論的話來我先請教司長目前的地方政府對於低收入是不是都給予免費"},{"start":7819.85,"end":7822.171,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":7843.138,"end":7861.041,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草"},{"start":7862.267,"end":7869.85,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":7877.472,"end":7896.289,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":7901.397,"end":7921.151,"text":"一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22次全體委"},{"start":7927.449,"end":7934.458,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":7935.049,"end":7949.732,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":7964.716,"end":7980.045,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條"},{"start":7987.95,"end":8015.063,"text":"如果低收目前都是免費的話中低我們要不要考量更多這個是我們必須要進一步來討論的尤其這個又涉及到地方地方自治的這些項目同樣的問題我要請這個吳署長吳署長你這個地方政府你也是非常的內行那都市計劃法第83之一條我講白話如果我講錯麻煩你給我一些指證就是說"},{"start":8016.084,"end":8032.114,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":8033.074,"end":8042.563,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條"},{"start":8053.84,"end":8057.324,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":8069.019,"end":8091.978,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":8093.243,"end":8118.761,"text":"一條文修正草案案案例一共申請的有63件那我舉一個我比較熟悉的高雄市他的貸金收入是50.4億他的件數是488件那實際上有真的去取得公保地的面積呢你知道台中市幾公頃嗎4.47公頃他收的貸金裡面有高達156億是沒有花出去的所以"},{"start":8119.542,"end":8144.214,"text":"他希望可以放寬這個限制放寬這個限制之後會發生什麼問題?署長就是變成說他最後還是沒有辦法真正去取得這些公保地尤其是同一個區內的這樣在這個區內有了更高的容積結果公共設施用地沒有解決這會造成這個地區的公共設施環境越來越惡化但是沒有真實投入好謝謝你講得非常清楚那我這邊請劉部長"},{"start":8154.581,"end":8165.676,"text":"我以你過去的選區也就是我現在的選區高雄大學重劃區當例子過去在高雄大學這個勢力重劃裡面"},{"start":8166.57,"end":8195.69,"text":"大量的這些底廢地到目前為止幾乎已經快變成高雄市的地網的情況下他的底廢地的收入我們還是堅持必須投入高雄大學的這些公共建設其實道理就跟現在的83條之一希望這些公設保留地的建設可以留在這個區域都市計畫區域裡面過去做的這些堅持讓高雄大學目前所要"},{"start":8195.95,"end":8213.248,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草"},{"start":8215.05,"end":8228.051,"text":"所以在這邊我表達對於內政部剛剛所說對83條之一以及殯葬條例第二十一條的修正希望都可以在審慎評估以及考慮謝謝來部長請你回應"},{"start":8230.234,"end":8248.533,"text":"是,謝謝,謝謝委員的關心有關於你講到容積貸金取得私有公保地情形我們當然是希望維持現行條文不要讓縣市政府他們取得貸金之後把它移轉到非該地區需要做都市計畫這樣子的一個方法那這樣子反而造成整個的這個都市計畫大亂"},{"start":8249.654,"end":8251.815,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":8272.871,"end":8274.732,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":8846.209,"end":8850.391,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:好,我們繼續開會。接下來請徐以貞委員發言。徐以貞委員發言。徐以貞委員發言。徐以貞委員發言。徐以貞委員發言。"},{"start":8872.003,"end":8881.57,"text":"條之一條之一條文修正草案 條款吾想我們這次我想大家也是為了要擴大照顧這個經濟弱勢的族群提出了《殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案》擴大補助對象從現在的低收入戶擴大到這個中低收入戶"},{"start":8899.844,"end":8912.97,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會長劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員會長劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員會長劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員會長劉建國等19人"},{"start":8928.336,"end":8939.987,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員"},{"start":8951.578,"end":8952.8,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":8967.76,"end":8982.471,"text":"審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":8994.58,"end":9007.344,"text":"一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第20次全體委員會第20次全體委員會第21次全體委員會第22次全"},{"start":9018.707,"end":9021.39,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":9037.244,"end":9044.187,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第"},{"start":9067.397,"end":9068.238,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。netesa"},{"start":9084.546,"end":9090.572,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":9108.127,"end":9116.676,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第"},{"start":9127.927,"end":9152.125,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 您聽我解釋就是說在有那個殯葬設施的地方通常叫零幣設施。零幣設施周圍一定的比例上面的它其實優惠會非常的大。那非零幣設施的話呢它是希望按照權限或是權勢的標準所以這個都是要一起來討論比較好。請問一下這個部長是不是針對中低收入戶納入中低收入戶目前您同不同意這樣的一個修法呢?"},{"start":9152.665,"end":9155.268,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":9169.684,"end":9170.725,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":9194.997,"end":9196.739,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議"},{"start":9209.974,"end":9219.88,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第"},{"start":9227.205,"end":9239.072,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第1次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第20次全體委"},{"start":9242.654,"end":9244.696,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":9264.292,"end":9268.297,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":9282.13,"end":9285.251,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":9303.916,"end":9305.918,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":9324.677,"end":9327.799,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會"},{"start":9358.881,"end":9362.907,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第"},{"start":9376.803,"end":9387.106,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員"},{"start":9403.87,"end":9429.12,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:所以其實在現行的法規裡面已經有相關的補助了對嗎?社會救助法裡面已經有規範了那如果照我們今天由委員提案的版本也在殯葬的條例裡面放入中低收的這個補助那會不會跟社會救助法之間有任何的漢格或是重複或者是接下來會有執行上至愛難行的地方?"},{"start":9429.36,"end":9431.341,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。Reporter 審查委員審查委員"},{"start":9456.667,"end":9458.147,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":9478.312,"end":9491.459,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":9504.697,"end":9515.513,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員"},{"start":9521.261,"end":9521.622,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":9538.197,"end":9539.197,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":9565.788,"end":9566.428,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":9589.916,"end":9594.041,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":9609.298,"end":9612.181,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":9627.875,"end":9629.896,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":9655.675,"end":9659.117,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":9685.914,"end":9712.876,"text":"三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案 案件是否會離目標越來越遠?所以我看到我也是認為說那這樣的方向離我們當初希望去把這些公保地做公共設施然後讓它符合原本的這個公益的用途這個是一種土地正義嗎?那照這樣的目標我們是不是應該研擬其他的方式讓徵收公保地這一條路變得更可行?"},{"start":9713.904,"end":9725.689,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條"},{"start":9738.815,"end":9752.585,"text":"三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案�"},{"start":9765.413,"end":9767.875,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":9786.874,"end":9787.334,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":9804.003,"end":9805.404,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9832.281,"end":9844.113,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":9848.314,"end":9873.7,"text":"陸委員好部長早安今天兩個事情其實都來自於地方政府的一些實務上在執行政策的一些需求那我們就做一下大體的討論第一個是有關殯葬條例的部分這個剛剛我聽了前面很多委員的詢答這個內政部這邊顯然跟地方政府有做過很多的一個先期的溝通那我就問一下現在各縣市對於中低收入戶還有所謂的特殊境遇之人的殯葬相關優惠你們有沒有彙整有 我們彙整出來了"},{"start":9876.243,"end":9887.047,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":9897.372,"end":9909.916,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":9917.198,"end":9933.806,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":9944.651,"end":9973.221,"text":"好那我現在再接著往下問第一個你資料希望下午的時候可以補上第二個現在一國多制可能會引起什麼樣的問題部長就不同縣市有不同標準可能會引發什麼問題第一個地方制度法本來就是給地方縣市政府有他們的全線規定我現在問實務上發生什麼問題嘛你法理上對你講這是地方現行狀況就是地方可以制定地方的規則嘛但實務上出現了什麼問題導致了今天會有這個修法的需求產生嘛"},{"start":9974.335,"end":9988.28,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第2次全體委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22"},{"start":9994.702,"end":9996.683,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":10010.994,"end":10040.134,"text":"我用桃園市的部分跟牛委員報告那個桃園市的部分所回覆的部分是第一個入塔免費不贊成納入那火化免費的部分的話就是中低收入戶跟特殊境遇沒有意見但是其他經濟困頓者呢審認資格執行困難他寫不贊成納入然後還有一個倘若納入勢必造成稅入短收財政負擔嘛對不對你其實大部分聽到的意見是不是都財政負擔"},{"start":10041.214,"end":10054.46,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":10070.219,"end":10080.441,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":10096.852,"end":10098.273,"text":"一條文修正草案案例第二十一條文修正草案案"},{"start":10116.886,"end":10133.131,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":10143.974,"end":10167.146,"text":"我殯葬的部分 那就不是只有殯葬管理條例可以單獨實施的但是總是要討論嘛 對不對所以我們希望說透過這樣的一個修法第一個把標準起義第二個不要造成各地靈異設施的這種不平衡的狀況出現第三如果有這個好的機制的設計其他的社會救助的相關輔助他在殯葬比例降低其他生活補助比例就拉高了嘛這樣就是照顧真正的甘苦人啦"},{"start":10167.466,"end":10177.373,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全"},{"start":10186.879,"end":10214.756,"text":"對但是縣市地方政府的意見地方縣市政府的意見都不相同我的意思說站在內政部的立場我們叫做免收或減收這個並不難但是站在社會救助法它是補助這是完全不一樣的概念那還有地方縣市政府是民政局跟社會局問題在於問題在於現行的補助不一定能夠滿足中低收入戶的需求對不對那你現在中央的說法你現在中央的說法是說我當然可以准你免收啊但財政部你自己處理"},{"start":10215.336,"end":10241.48,"text":"所以縣市政府當然就裹足不前了嘛我壓力很大我想不是這麼的簡化齁我們願意幫忙各地方縣那個可能您也不了解就是除了六度以外還有縣市你剛剛在答詢的時候你有講你有講說有些政府有條件同意你剛剛講桃園市的例子其實問題就是財政嘛是不是大部分縣市政府提出來的問題都是財政的壓力其實是嘛那我現在只問一個問題嘛中央願不願透過這次修法一個檢討的契機也在財政的部分給予地方縣市政府一定的支持嘛"},{"start":10242.689,"end":10259.341,"text":"現在的修法的條文我想還不夠能夠滿足我們現在所說在財政收支劃分上面的問題。那要不要在討論的過程中也思考配套的措施。那就要納入社會救助法。好,納入配套的措施。部長你應該不反對這樣的做法,對不對?只是說我們希望更多的配套讓它制度的到位是完整的。"},{"start":10259.761,"end":10267.167,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":10284.161,"end":10284.701,"text":"審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":10306.424,"end":10309.427,"text":"三條文修正草案案案件,其中一條文修正草案案件,其中一條文修正草案案件,其中一條文修正草案"},{"start":10332.901,"end":10345.487,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":10358.373,"end":10370.441,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次"},{"start":10374.434,"end":10379.38,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":10389.096,"end":10401.367,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員"},{"start":10412.117,"end":10428.515,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案件事項。但是,我也認同很多提案委員的想法。我取得土地,我不見得有相關預算來做開闢。所以是不是在審酌地方政府的困難之後,也許用部分比例的方式,也可以讓他做建設或什麼的。"},{"start":10428.815,"end":10430.536,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":10459.636,"end":10460.537,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":10478.619,"end":10481.861,"text":"審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":10496.127,"end":10496.788,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員"},{"start":10511.118,"end":10514.059,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":10534.409,"end":10555.065,"text":"那因為我想所有委員也都表達這一些都是乾坤郎所以我們希望我們國家我們的這個政府呢可以給他們多一些的照顧那這個今天內政部的報告特別提到本次殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一的修法"},{"start":10555.865,"end":10569.618,"text":"一條文修正草案．一具行政院主計處總處的意見免費使用公立的火化廠及骨灰存放設施與社會救助法第十六條所定喪葬補助性質相同會造成重複補貼應與避免"},{"start":10571.38,"end":10574.061,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":10596.49,"end":10604.145,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":10606.363,"end":10609.324,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":10634.363,"end":10656.288,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":10661.65,"end":10667.072,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":10687.079,"end":10687.76,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":10707.856,"end":10708.336,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":10730.926,"end":10757.379,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:對。所以我們今天是在討論我們要不要照顧他們。所以講清楚就好了。那接著我的剩下的時間我要針對今天您在最後這個有關殯葬管理條例你們的結論講說有關委員所提案增列免收費用的對象因事涉中央及地方政府財政負擔建請參酌各地方政府及財政相關機關之意見審慎研議。部長這點本席就要這個"},{"start":10760.52,"end":10769.684,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":10780.708,"end":10782.93,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":10798.985,"end":10820.552,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":10828.627,"end":10833.01,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":10843.311,"end":10847.734,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":10872.97,"end":10885.239,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":10899.582,"end":10902.288,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案"},{"start":10909.287,"end":10915.789,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．"},{"start":10933.735,"end":10934.236,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":10949.671,"end":10969.144,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":10970.225,"end":10976.352,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":10994.005,"end":10996.468,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":11009.423,"end":11014.665,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12屆第2會期內政委員會第12屆第2會期內政委員會第12屆第2會期內政委員會第12屆第2會期內政委員會第12屆第2會期內政委員會第12屆第2會期內政委員會第12屆第2會期內政委員會第12"},{"start":11036.954,"end":11057.44,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修"},{"start":11065.734,"end":11080.837,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第"},{"start":11095.091,"end":11098.835,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。厲 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。厲"},{"start":11113.496,"end":11130.651,"text":"條之一條之一條文修正草案案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等21條之一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等21條之一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等21條之一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等21條之一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等21條之一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等21條之一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等21條之一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等21條之一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張"},{"start":11140.68,"end":11157.754,"text":"三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案是針對我們的經濟修律的果分,可以同樣納入殯葬管理條例第二十一條免修的果分。當過去我是基站的委員長出身,當過去在建基站的時候,在基站開放的時候,都有經常發現到一些問題,就是有很多經濟的事端"},{"start":11169.364,"end":11178.367,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案 案件,審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案 案件,審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具"},{"start":11190.35,"end":11192.31,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":11215.246,"end":11219.969,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":11235.62,"end":11239.943,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":11260.998,"end":11276.093,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案的條款,我想我們社會審查法第一條的定義,就是照顧及修律好、重啟修律好,及這個審查、教授及咱們在下再來定這個管法的,我想國領"},{"start":11279.955,"end":11285.017,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。neteso免收均賬設施費用,其實這免收是當局份的工作,因為相關的單位是可以去給這個居住戶收錢的,但是撥走這條經費的單位是管政府。"},{"start":11306.387,"end":11327.52,"text":"一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":11330.903,"end":11332.645,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":11347.113,"end":11350.716,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":11368.393,"end":11382.859,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯"},{"start":11390.362,"end":11404.312,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條"},{"start":11417.082,"end":11431.886,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。厲必設施所在地,他們對於不管是邊緣戶或是其他甚至正常人的話,他有免費的對象由他們自己來訂定。所以我們是尊重這個地方制度法上面的一個明定的規則。所以我要把這個丁委員報告的所在就是說每一個管理政務有一個規定"},{"start":11437.327,"end":11439.028,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。厲 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。厲"},{"start":11465.199,"end":11465.559,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":11484.892,"end":11491.899,"text":"好,這個國分就是我們要討論的國分,因為我們來進國是我們全國民進黨類相關的改革。對著這個金鐘條例,我希望說,我們既然有辦法來協助到解修律,再來將對我們這個共解修律,同樣納入這個二十一條之一的國分,我們可以是全國統一。"},{"start":11507.534,"end":11508.335,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。厲 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具"},{"start":11522.752,"end":11531.776,"text":"三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一"},{"start":11552.905,"end":11557.726,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":11583.226,"end":11589.428,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":11598.712,"end":11625.12,"text":"其中不乏許多高齡70至80多歲的長者也都還在擔任志工付出服務政府應付其照顧領長及志工責任保障其應有權益避免高齡志工領長因年齡被保險公司拒保或因勤務拒風險卻沒有得到應有之保障原進其內政部與會同衛福部兩個月內提出專案報告送本院內政委員會提案人委員徐新穎等"},{"start":11626.823,"end":11627.483,"text":"審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":11647.208,"end":11659.87,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":11677.435,"end":11687.798,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":11704.042,"end":11712.387,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：李柏毅委員請問一下內政部請問一下國土署這邊我們這個是只有針對臺中縣這個提案當然是臺東的黃建斌委員提出那我們也對臺東這個狀況我們表達高度的關切請問這個提案內政部有這樣的補助措施嗎"},{"start":11732.018,"end":11754.21,"text":"庚委員報告,其實因為這些有關於災後救助的金額現在包含了所謂的每一戶的,也包含了所謂的電器購置的補助。我們現在各部會報上去,院長院來分配。以過去的分配來講,這並不是在我們內政部補助這些金額。"},{"start":11754.97,"end":11772.865,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":11781.852,"end":11796.385,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具"},{"start":11810.832,"end":11815.954,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":11837.751,"end":11843.474,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、"},{"start":11860.481,"end":11870.03,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":11884.804,"end":11888.547,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":11904.259,"end":11909.203,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":11926.089,"end":11940.575,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第"},{"start":11956.499,"end":11969.085,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22次"},{"start":11979.4,"end":11996.288,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":12002.252,"end":12018.024,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員劉建國等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員劉建國等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員劉建國等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員劉建國等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員劉建國"},{"start":12030.545,"end":12050.897,"text":"一條文修正草案案。 »: 是不是照部長剛剛有念過的文字?我們文字修正一下。我們等待一分鐘可不可以盡快完成。"},{"start":12051.84,"end":12057.743,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":12089.672,"end":12090.433,"text":"一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":12120.963,"end":12130.376,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":12140.746,"end":12157.822,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委"},{"start":12158.302,"end":12175.532,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第"},{"start":12183.519,"end":12207.208,"text":"對啦,現在開始跟內政的交通的經濟有很多補助不一樣單位不一樣金錢的嘛,那就是依你要聯絡他們每一個單位去補助他們在黨的受災害相關的受理啦,醫生。"},{"start":12210.238,"end":12229.014,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":12239.81,"end":12241.914,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:現在我們先休息3分鐘。"},{"start":12257.748,"end":12277.851,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人�"},{"start":12280.794,"end":12304.171,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯"},{"start":12305.131,"end":12327.317,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第"},{"start":12331.24,"end":12337.305,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12350.433,"end":12352.935,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":12373.889,"end":12393.899,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案案。 »:我們現在繼續開會請宣讀臨時提案二修正後的內容。後段修正為原提案要求內政部會同相關部會"},{"start":12397.745,"end":12424.264,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:會同相關部會及臺東縣政府辦理縣勘並請相關部會從優提供救協助措施避利災民進行重建工作。好,請問在座委員有沒有意見?沒有。黃委員?"},{"start":12425.538,"end":12443.172,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員劉"},{"start":12462.449,"end":12482.335,"text":"審查委員吳元豪部長好幾位遊行這個惡法是民進黨政府對台灣公民社會做出的莊嚴承諾2008年的時候前總統蔡英文在自由廣場跟整個社會道歉說民進黨過去八年執政時期"},{"start":12483.695,"end":12497.883,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12504.191,"end":12530.881,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":12532.326,"end":12547.616,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22次"},{"start":12555.56,"end":12568.995,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二"},{"start":12570.404,"end":12597.595,"text":"這也是當初民進黨黨團當初的幹事長叫做賴清德現在是總統我來看一下2008年的時候民進黨立院黨團提出集會遊行修正草案黨團幹事長賴清德說說國民黨如果不背革14天內提案變更易成法案近乎二讀"},{"start":12599.165,"end":12620.192,"text":"當初賴清德喊得很大聲啊他要做什麼他要把它改成第一個報備制第二個取消什麼取消管制區第三個刪除主管機關命令集會遊行解散的權利當初賴清德的三大主張啊現在的賴清德政府有沒有要做我反案都調出來了啦這個是賴清德講的話"},{"start":12629.141,"end":12641.214,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。厲法院公報裡面都有啊還是2008年的賴清德跟2024年的賴清德不一樣了當初的主張現在沒有打算要做了來請教部長"},{"start":12643.82,"end":12663.967,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第"},{"start":12672.33,"end":12686.921,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":12700.871,"end":12716.177,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例"},{"start":12725.148,"end":12730.315,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。netesa 你說時空環境背景不同嘛那沒有關係我就請教你嘛這個主張有沒有改變"},{"start":12731.505,"end":12759.346,"text":"也是必須要做部分條文的修正。如何修正?第一個我們跟警政同仁在討論的過程當中他們也認為說不合法尤其是有暴力傾向的部分的話如果你沒有警政機關事實來介入的話恐怕反而會造成不是集會遊行的主要目的以外的暴力事件。警政機關介入的法律授權基礎是極有法嗎?"},{"start":12760.566,"end":12779.322,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":12787.774,"end":12808.398,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":12818.104,"end":12840.356,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":12846.457,"end":12854.874,"text":"這完全是李佑昌的話 這話不是我編出來的什麼時候"},{"start":12856.417,"end":12881.093,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 我現在我現在沒有辦法回應沒有關係會後回應好不好會後具體的回應齁針對有關於內政部在研議集會遊行法相關的審查作業幾月幾號開了什麼會做了什麼事部長現在沒有辦法回應我尊重嘛因為現在部長手上沒資料但會後提供可以嗎"},{"start":12881.733,"end":12894.525,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":12898.001,"end":12916.747,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":12923.839,"end":12949.994,"text":"需要多久?跟大家講一聲沒有這麼難吧我還是不清楚我需要回去再看一下因為我知道修正了方向但是修正了法條跟哪些部會要做不同的審查沒有關係啦我只是要求他書面回覆我就好了嘛他現在不知道我們給他時間考慮這個我都可以接受書面回覆的時間要多久我只需要這個時間而已"},{"start":12951.67,"end":12972.644,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":12981.552,"end":12984.073,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":12999.478,"end":13008.963,"text":"一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":13024.79,"end":13040.561,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案的重點就是在於原本我們是針對一半三條之一公共設施保留地之取得就到這裡停止了之取得但取得要做什麼呢所以本席加了三個字及新闢"},{"start":13041.562,"end":13045.304,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":13069.875,"end":13073.697,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":13087.677,"end":13090.839,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":13112.773,"end":13114.634,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":13127.878,"end":13128.879,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":13150.538,"end":13151.318,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":13173.425,"end":13183.271,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":13189.594,"end":13199.798,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例"},{"start":13209.562,"end":13216.53,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第"},{"start":13230.006,"end":13232.77,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。cellence.審查委員審查委員"},{"start":13246.849,"end":13251.072,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 但是我們地方明明白白有這樣的需求,這個就是理性討論。在還沒有達成共識的時候,本期具體要求行政部門特別針對我們地方的困境,要怎麼樣均衡發展,要做專案的一個研議跟討論。"},{"start":13265.8,"end":13276.245,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":13292.814,"end":13307.931,"text":"一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．"},{"start":13314.838,"end":13328.824,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":13330.845,"end":13358.604,"text":"其實所謂的培訓名利從有民防法開始有災害防救法跟替代役就一直在培訓請回答本席的提問9月27日你所提及你預計要培訓多少名利現在的人力的培訓除了志工團體以外都是維持原來的人數那大約是在三十幾萬左右不對我告訴你背景你預計要培訓四十萬的名利你從哪裡"},{"start":13359.725,"end":13377.791,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第"},{"start":13379.671,"end":13388.56,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18"},{"start":13397.87,"end":13422.576,"text":"到說我們現在依據的法律就是我剛剛跟你提到了民防法災救法跟替代役管理條例那只是說裡面我們希望能夠更精進譬如說我們希望多培育在大規模這個天災的時候有一些譬如說急難救助不是急難救助就是緊急救助EMT或者是心肺復甦這些比較相近的部分所以我所提到的 董事長總統講的話你都沒在聽啊"},{"start":13424.657,"end":13445.932,"text":"他的三大目標有一個本席要跟你提問的必要時支援軍事行動所以本席要告訴你喔他不是強制性首要是維持社會穩定首要第一個要務是維持社會穩定首要就是你的理念你要做得來你的KPI要怎麼做就像現在的大規模政策一樣給你詳細的訊息資料給本席告訴我你的方案好你的KPI多久時間好多久時間告訴本席"},{"start":13455.194,"end":13477.184,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":13478.581,"end":13479.702,"text":"一條文修正草案案"},{"start":13490.464,"end":13498.608,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次審查委員會第4次審查委員會第5次審查委員會第6次審查委員會第7次審查委員會第8次審查委員會第8次審查委員會第9次審查委員會第10次審查委員會第11次審查委員會第12次審查委員會第12次審查委員會第13次審查委員會第14次審查委員會第14次審查委員會第15次審查委員會第15次審查委員會第16次審查委員會第17次審查委員會第18次審查委員會第18次審查委員會第19次�"},{"start":13514.517,"end":13517.701,"text":"一條文修正草案案的總額是89.44元,換句話說你藍主權存的這個金額多於被騙的金額。"},{"start":13530.087,"end":13545.381,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例四十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例五十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例六十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例五十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例五十一條文"},{"start":13548.624,"end":13560.952,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全"},{"start":13578.844,"end":13583.427,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":13600.035,"end":13616.053,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":13621.559,"end":13623.461,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":13641.955,"end":13665.812,"text":"本席已經告訴你我贊許打詐儀表版把真實的數字還原真相所以我建議你本席建議你你的行政措施必須要加強因為我們已經看到社會非常危害的一個面向好不好好謝謝那委員剛所提到的這個民防可視民利的話在我們民防法第二條第四案"},{"start":13667.455,"end":13674.921,"text":"一條第四條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":13692.964,"end":13696.985,"text":"審查委員劉建國等16人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案案件 〈殯葬管理條例第二十一條問題〉"},{"start":13712.569,"end":13714.611,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":13736.733,"end":13748.279,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":13759.885,"end":13784.118,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案案件,於9月開會第四次專案小組後,我們就請他最後再把跟衛福部所談妥的內容,把它重新做一個修正。那修正以後,那我們會再會同小組再做一次確認以後,當然沒有問題的話,那就可以提大會,是這個概念。那所以說齁,之前衛福部有意見是認為說他的公益性比較低,商業性比較高對不對?對。"},{"start":13785.399,"end":13799.327,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":13804.73,"end":13808.975,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":13823.49,"end":13838.576,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":13849.761,"end":13853.202,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":13877.129,"end":13879.071,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":13893.422,"end":13902.429,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3條之一條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會第5會期內政委員會第6會期內政委員會第7會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會"},{"start":13908.453,"end":13912.657,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":13931.537,"end":13937.841,"text":"四人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":13961.577,"end":13964.258,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":13979.666,"end":13996.739,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正�"},{"start":13999.241,"end":14021.386,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":14023.626,"end":14034.069,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第20次全體委員會第21次全體委員會第22次全體委員會第23次全體委員會第24次全體委"},{"start":14051.853,"end":14058.994,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":14083.354,"end":14084.495,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":14105.708,"end":14112.75,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":14131.696,"end":14153.226,"text":"一條的意見我們也尊重但是呢如果是全臺灣都一起適用的話反而會破壞現在所謂的這個這個容積貸金來取得私有公保地的這樣子的一個政策那可以照各縣市去做調整嗎我們已經我們已經有了解各縣市這樣的狀況了好那第二個殯葬管理條例現在要這個修正您個人覺得可以支持嗎"},{"start":14153.846,"end":14177.657,"text":"我剛有跟很多委員說明過第一個就是殯葬管理條例在幫助這個中低收入戶其實中央跟地方還有各位民代的意見大家都相同但是最主要就是財政的部分是回歸到縣市地方政府要吸收所以我們在22個縣市地方政府所問的意見都不一定完全相同包括台中市"},{"start":14178.297,"end":14197.197,"text":"一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。 »: 我知道民政局一定會希望不要嘛因為他希望增加收入嘛那社會局的態度當然是希望當然不用他出錢他當然是能夠多多受惠有更多的民眾受惠當然是最好的但是我還是希望在第十屆第三會期關係文書包括部長本人"},{"start":14197.938,"end":14205.722,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":14215.427,"end":14226.451,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":14243.837,"end":14245.82,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":14262.921,"end":14268.867,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":14281.198,"end":14283.981,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":14301.021,"end":14308.065,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":14329.158,"end":14349.358,"text":"有,我能夠感受到您所說的一些困境吼。那我們還是希望因為現在可以看到包括有一些財政紀律反而沒有很好的縣市政府他有去做這樣子的一個免收。那縣市財政紀律很好的剩很多錢的地方政府反而他卻要收錢。我們還是希望有這個機會不管是免收"},{"start":14349.998,"end":14367.053,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16"},{"start":14370.869,"end":14381.313,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員"},{"start":14391.817,"end":14392.177,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":14411.972,"end":14414.993,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":14440.825,"end":14441.787,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":14455.316,"end":14477.213,"text":"人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案�"},{"start":14485.639,"end":14489.143,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":14507.243,"end":14512.527,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":14525.237,"end":14549.446,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":14553.177,"end":14561.601,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。厲 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。厲"},{"start":14570.905,"end":14581.491,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。厲 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。厲 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。厲 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。厲"},{"start":14600.782,"end":14614.111,"text":"二、殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十五人擬"},{"start":14631.001,"end":14639.827,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":14651.974,"end":14664.18,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16"},{"start":14672.563,"end":14686.332,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次"},{"start":14696.919,"end":14715.923,"text":"三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。」案。閱讀審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。」案。閱讀審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。」案。閱讀審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管"},{"start":14724.664,"end":14741.963,"text":"因為這種毒品是危害整個社會這是非常嚴重所以說在這個部分是不是可以說來想辦法來邀請我們的法務部各單位大家共同來擬議說這可以提升到二級"},{"start":14743.144,"end":14767.042,"text":"一條文修正草案案 報告委員不是只有這件事其他也是因為很多毒販或是很多吸毒的人依托彌止的部分我們本來是在七月八月的時候在法務部已經公告變成三級毒品但是我們的警政單位認為說他現在對於危害社會治安影響太大希望能夠提升變成二級毒品所以我已經跟法務部長提過"},{"start":14769.764,"end":14771.165,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":14791.312,"end":14803.943,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全"},{"start":14819.355,"end":14823.117,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":14848.464,"end":14851.246,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":14858.666,"end":14865.531,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":14885.126,"end":14886.988,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":14903.841,"end":14920.727,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員會第3條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員會第3條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員會第3條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員會第3條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員會第3條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員會第3條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員會第3條文修正草案．立法院第4"},{"start":14931.531,"end":14933.552,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":14953.559,"end":14962.835,"text":"法令有明定五年要檢討一次我以我自己細子的都市計劃為例好了細子的第三次都市計劃通盤檢討在民國103年底啟動"},{"start":14967.537,"end":14971,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":14988.613,"end":15015.085,"text":"就是已經十年的時間比法定五年比法定五年要檢討一次的時間還久了我想這應該不會是個案的問題應該是許多牽涉的都市計畫檢討都發生這樣子的問題那是不是可以沒關係您署長您說明一下現在的問題是怎麼樣那我們可以做怎樣的改善跟委員報告其實現在的狀況就是說過程中大概尤其是人民陳情案"},{"start":15015.762,"end":15031.053,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":15041.821,"end":15043.943,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":15059.774,"end":15075.895,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,審查委員張嘉郡等26人擬具"},{"start":15076.636,"end":15080.338,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":15099.185,"end":15109.651,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案"},{"start":15119.697,"end":15120.738,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":15131.664,"end":15138.471,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":15150.843,"end":15172.084,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":15175.607,"end":15182.591,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":15208.337,"end":15210.72,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員"},{"start":15214.4,"end":15224.485,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":15243.114,"end":15244.335,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":15259.008,"end":15266.151,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":15274.935,"end":15280.899,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":15294.008,"end":15296.809,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":15324.916,"end":15340.88,"text":"三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案�"},{"start":15343.021,"end":15347.946,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案案件,審查委員審查委員吳修正草案案件,審查委員吳修正草案案件,審查委員吳修正草案案件,審查委員吳"},{"start":15363.863,"end":15371.749,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草"},{"start":15389.582,"end":15390.682,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":15415.211,"end":15426.016,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":15444.966,"end":15446.088,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":15460.726,"end":15470.355,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文"},{"start":15476.801,"end":15477.522,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":15494.414,"end":15505.463,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第"},{"start":15523.117,"end":15523.938,"text":"一條文修正草案案"},{"start":15535.354,"end":15544.797,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":15564.665,"end":15591.7,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員主席有請部長部長好部長好我想針對上次總質詢提出有關於居住正義相關的問題上次院長有一些不敢承諾的地方這邊要再特別請教一下部長我想要第一再問一下我們現在租屋補貼你們補貼的金額是多少這四年預估總共多少四年四年嗎還是今年這四年四年"},{"start":15593.922,"end":15603.345,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":15616.161,"end":15617.862,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":15640.956,"end":15656.697,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 呃,這跟社會住宅不一樣。我們全部的標題叫百萬租屋家庭。所以不是百萬社宅。是百萬租屋家庭。所以剛剛說如果以你們現在滾動式的調整的話,如果為了要維持這個承諾,我想要問一下,那接下來每年都要編將近300億的租屋補貼嗎?"},{"start":15657.358,"end":15659.9,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":15679.614,"end":15689.413,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。厲清德總統選前的一個承諾這50萬戶可是部長上次我們卓院長在院會的時候說這是廉價的承諾你覺得現在這個承諾到底是廉價還是高價?"},{"start":15690.547,"end":15695.068,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":15712.313,"end":15741.674,"text":"可是呢,上次部長在院會可能也搞錯了以為是在講購屋的實價登錄但我在講的其實是租屋的實價登錄現在只有10萬4千多筆我想要請教現在高達65萬戶所以等於是來回相差了55萬戶那現在這個網站上的實價登錄租屋的實價登錄是還有辦法繼續優化嗎?還可以讓租屋市場更透明嗎?還是說就讓他爛在那邊?跟委員報告啦,其實這也是為什麼當時我們在讓民眾申請的時候"},{"start":15742.134,"end":15744.276,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":15760.248,"end":15761.349,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案案件事宜審查委員審查委員"},{"start":15779.499,"end":15801.376,"text":"一萬兩千六百塊可以租到的是有電梯還是沒電梯幾坪的房子嗎?可以嗎?區位是什麼?屋齡是多少?請問這樣子的資料部長你們可以辨別嗎?這無法辨別因為我自己提供的資料讓他們填寫的資料就不包含所以這個數字的參考我就沒有意義啦就沒有做到所謂政策希望我們租屋市場透明啊"},{"start":15801.596,"end":15815.861,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":15829.406,"end":15855.36,"text":"另外我也想要確認一下這個內政部承諾蓋25萬戶社會住宅但是現在中央自己新辦而且已經完工可以招租的房屋是多少?因為我上次問的時候部長還是答不出來喔是,跟我們報告齁你如果現在談到是中央跟興建中央的中央興建而且興建的不是興建是中央完工的對,其實完工的部分現在就是只有這個林口還有最近要報完工的靜岡好市"},{"start":15855.7,"end":15869.989,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員"},{"start":15879.847,"end":15890.076,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修"},{"start":15891.192,"end":15898.375,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":15920.345,"end":15945.156,"text":"我希望你們可以承諾年輕的朋友們或是需要居住正義的朋友們這個賴清德總統的政見的支票承諾請問我現在還是帶來請問部長你願意不願意簽一百萬戶的這個承諾有收到五十萬戶的租金補貼和二十五萬戶包租貸款二十五萬戶的社宅請問你們願意承諾嗎"},{"start":15946.152,"end":15951.237,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案案。 »: 審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":15966.912,"end":15994.4,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:我已經把內容細節也寫在裡面了有50萬戶的租屋補貼25萬戶包租代管25萬戶的社宅所以我想這個內容沒有問題可是就是端看你們有沒有這個決心因為過去承諾的所謂的居住正義和社宅全部跳票所以我今天為什麼要做這個動作不是叫沒有意義而是要看你們有多少決心不是用這種數字來荒唐的說我這樣已經超過50萬戶了好不好我希望部長我們可以一起努力"},{"start":15995,"end":15996.461,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":16008.074,"end":16013.616,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":16031.769,"end":16058.416,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。​​登記發言的委員除不在場者其餘均已發言完畢,詢答結束。委員高金素梅、傅坤祺總召所提書面質詢列入記錄,刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答覆部分,請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會。現在我們休息五分鐘,休息完之後處理法案。"},{"start":16062.483,"end":16063.143,"text":"一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16099.979,"end":16109.509,"text":"三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":16122.7,"end":16145.551,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":16150.706,"end":16162.722,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人�"},{"start":16175.599,"end":16180.12,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案 案 審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":16206.628,"end":16220.977,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯"},{"start":16229.623,"end":16231.204,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16257.635,"end":16285.286,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例四、殯葬管理條例五、殯葬管理條例六、殯葬管理條例七、殯葬管理條例八、殯葬管理條例九、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、"},{"start":16287.947,"end":16298.65,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":16314.414,"end":16335.818,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管"},{"start":16347.725,"end":16368.773,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管"},{"start":16370.034,"end":16381.25,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例四、殯葬管理條例五、殯葬管理條例六、殯葬管理條例七、殯葬管理條例八、殯葬管理條例八、殯葬管理條例九、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯"},{"start":16396.683,"end":16418.825,"text":"一條文修正草案 案。閱讀審查委員會第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次"},{"start":16419.445,"end":16421.748,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案 案 審查委員審查委員"},{"start":16441.551,"end":16444.172,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":16462.185,"end":16468.568,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查"},{"start":16499.07,"end":16514.466,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管"},{"start":16515.427,"end":16517.569,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案 案 審查委員"},{"start":16526.6,"end":16528.963,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":16545.623,"end":16570.836,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員會第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第"},{"start":16571.776,"end":16595.349,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員會第11屆第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體"},{"start":16596.269,"end":16611.362,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":16612.983,"end":16630.293,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯"},{"start":16631.374,"end":16646.189,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文"},{"start":16647.49,"end":16650.673,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":16668.95,"end":16676.175,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":16694.517,"end":16712.998,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案 案。閱讀審查委員會第11屆第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全"},{"start":16714.9,"end":16734.26,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管"},{"start":16734.52,"end":16737.202,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案 案 審查委員審查委員"},{"start":16756.773,"end":16782.989,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":16784.73,"end":16791.131,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":16814.415,"end":16839.311,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第四條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第五條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第六條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第七條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第八條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第八條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第八條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第八條文修正草案．一"},{"start":16841.592,"end":16859.046,"text":"一條文修正草案案。 bicyclie Lee 張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 bicyclie Lee 張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。 bicyclie Lee 張嘉郡等29人擬具:「"},{"start":16865.051,"end":16881.246,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":16886.408,"end":16894.771,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案 案 審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":16912.383,"end":16925.626,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 bicy 則審查委員審查委員長鄭楠楠等19人審查委員長鄭楠等19人審查委員長鄭楠等19人審查委員長"},{"start":16949.86,"end":16956.324,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案、審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查"},{"start":16961.03,"end":16965.749,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案。"},{"start":16967.071,"end":16991.599,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例四、殯葬管理條例五、殯葬管理條例六、殯葬管理條例七、殯葬管理條例八、殯葬管理條例九、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、"},{"start":16996.701,"end":17022.215,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管"},{"start":17028.838,"end":17035.089,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17041.022,"end":17048.385,"text":"一條文修正草案案。 bicyC."},{"start":17048.385,"end":17055.828,"text":"他們要出委員會,因為他們都要出委員會。 bicyC."},{"start":17055.828,"end":17058.649,"text":"有一些文字作修正,但是我們決定保留學生。"},{"start":17068.177,"end":17074.142,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案 案 審查委員"},{"start":17081.628,"end":17086.251,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案 案 審查委員審查委員"},{"start":17097.818,"end":17116.252,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案 案。 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案 案。 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案 案。 審查委員"},{"start":17119.634,"end":17140.106,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":17148.711,"end":17174.668,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全"},{"start":17178.069,"end":17189.932,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案 案。閱讀委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":17202.994,"end":17223.919,"text":"一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員會第11屆第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會"},{"start":17225.279,"end":17247.709,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「"},{"start":17251.711,"end":17273.571,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案 案 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案 案 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案 案 審查委員"},{"start":17275.213,"end":17285.379,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文"},{"start":17287.92,"end":17309.133,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡"},{"start":17310.755,"end":17334.237,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第"},{"start":17334.998,"end":17351.525,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員會第11屆第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體"},{"start":17352.885,"end":17367.196,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":17368.758,"end":17378.511,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 bicycliffe等26人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":17388.974,"end":17396.177,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案 案 審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":17412.485,"end":17431.757,"text":"一條文修正草案案 案 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案 案 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案 案 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案 案 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案 案 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案 案 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「"},{"start":17435.422,"end":17445.498,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":17453.25,"end":17472.46,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案 案。 »: 審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":17480.211,"end":17482.6,"text":"一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17488.842,"end":17511.721,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員會第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第"},{"start":17514.423,"end":17531.51,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯"},{"start":17532.09,"end":17539.676,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":17557.289,"end":17561.292,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":17578.304,"end":17592.6,"text":"一條文修正草案案 案 審查委員"},{"start":17602.233,"end":17614.517,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案、審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":17630.682,"end":17639.205,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案 案 審查委員審查委員"},{"start":17644.508,"end":17647.573,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":17658.95,"end":17668.573,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。閱讀審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審"},{"start":17693.285,"end":17697.309,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文"},{"start":17729.384,"end":17752.336,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案 案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案 案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案 案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案 案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案 案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案 案。​​審查委員張嘉郡等29人�"},{"start":17755.378,"end":17776.457,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例四、殯葬管理條例五、殯葬管理條例六、殯葬管理條例七、殯葬管理條例八、殯葬管理條例八、殯葬管理條例九、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、"},{"start":17782.039,"end":17782.665,"text":"一條文修正草案案"},{"start":17787.52,"end":17813.998,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文"},{"start":17817.2,"end":17843.767,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":17855.768,"end":17865.383,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二"},{"start":17867.032,"end":17877.16,"text":"報告委員會,現在進行法案審查,請宣讀討論事項一所有條文,修正動議附帶決議,請一併宣讀,宣讀完畢後再進行協商。"},{"start":17889.303,"end":17906.723,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案、委員丁學忠等16人提案第一項序文前段之各類之低收入戶文資修正為各類之中低收入戶及低收入戶其餘同現行條文委員張嘉郡等29人提案同委員丁學忠等16人提案並著作文資修正"},{"start":17907.344,"end":17921.796,"text":"委員劉建國等16人提案第一項序文前段之各類之低收入戶文字修正為各類之中低收入戶低收入戶或經各自瑕疵縣市政府認定家庭生活困頓陷入緊急危難者其餘同線型條文"},{"start":17922.637,"end":17950.344,"text":"委員徐宇貞等18人提案第一項序文修正為各直轄市縣市政府列冊各款各類之低收入戶使用各直轄市縣市或鄉鎮市所經營或委託民間經營代理代管之公立殯葬設施與公共服務免收使用管理相關費用與規費中低收入戶則減半第二項後段增訂其餘所需經費必要時由中央政府編列預算補助其餘同線型條文"},{"start":17951.744,"end":17970.613,"text":"一條文修正草案、委員劉廷偉等17人提案、同委員劉建國等16人提案、委員吳立華等16人提案,第一項序文修正為:「各直轄市縣市政府列冊各款各類之低收入戶、中低收入戶、特殊境遇家庭或經各直轄市縣市政府認定家庭生活困頓、陷入緊急危難者"},{"start":17971.093,"end":17972.234,"text":"一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":17987.205,"end":18008.411,"text":"修正動議第一項序文修正為各直轄市縣市政府列冊各款各類之中低收入戶低收入戶或經各直轄市縣市政府認定家庭生活困頓陷入緊急危難者使用直轄市縣市或鄉鎮市所經營或委託民間經營代理代管之下列公立殯葬設施與公共服務免收使用管理相關費用"},{"start":18009.571,"end":18024.428,"text":"第二項修正為前項免受費用之標準由直轄市縣市政府定之所需經費由中央政府編列預算補助其餘同縣行條文提案人委員徐欣盈等5人附帶決議建議殯葬管理條例"},{"start":18025.168,"end":18052.974,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案完成修法施行後,各地方政府因此所減少之規費收入,依本條例需由各地方政府負擔。維修法內容需為擴大照顧社會經濟弱勢族群且可跨縣市申請辦理,會避免財政困難之縣市無法配合修法免收相關規費。原建起內政部應每年編列專款經費,補足地方政府因本條例修法所造之之財政缺口,且不得以統籌分配款或大水庫等藉口。"},{"start":18053.314,"end":18057.379,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案、只做表面的補助提案人委員張志倫等6人宣讀完畢。好,那我們現在進行協商。"},{"start":18078.813,"end":18079.254,"text":"審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":18102.662,"end":18104.183,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草"},{"start":18122.13,"end":18125.172,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":18136.909,"end":18144.472,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第20次全體委員會第21次全體委員會第22次全"},{"start":18159.757,"end":18163.078,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":18179.485,"end":18184.147,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":18206.8,"end":18234.244,"text":"好那接著請衛福部的是哪一位是司長是嗎蘇昭如司長主席還有各位委員大家好那對於今天所討論冰葬管理條例第二十一條之一修正條文有六位委員的這個提案那委員提案是要把中低收入戶"},{"start":18234.864,"end":18236.285,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":18251.63,"end":18263.12,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":18269.966,"end":18273.767,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":18289.853,"end":18291.514,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":18306.938,"end":18313.042,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":18322.128,"end":18335.072,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":18344.042,"end":18358.243,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":18359.6,"end":18362.723,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":18389.396,"end":18413.449,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":18419.407,"end":18429.796,"text":"以這種演略再看是在社福單位應該是當社福單位有過分用這個特別預算的這方面當"},{"start":18434.096,"end":18443.579,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委會第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體"},{"start":18456.784,"end":18462.086,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":18478.592,"end":18479.873,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":18496.142,"end":18506.649,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":18526.127,"end":18529.257,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":18535.479,"end":18557.425,"text":"主席各位委員主席總書代表發言那關於今天委員所提到這個殯葬管理條例修正草案的部分第一個部分就是說是因為設備救助法的21條已經有規定說政府地方政府可以是需要對東地收戶戶的商帳補助那另外地方支付法也有規定是說呃殯葬設施的管理及設置是屬於地方政府自治事項那"},{"start":18557.825,"end":18587.181,"text":"所需的經費應該由其自有裁員優先編列預算第三個就是財政基金法的部分那剛才前面整個財政部的代表已經講過我就不再重複了所以根據這些相關的法令規定所以我們建議是說這個案子可能還是要請主管機關再去洽商各地方政府就相關的法令通盤研議審慎評估那如果有減少收入或增加經費的話可能還是應該依之於地方支付法規定由地方政府自行負擔不宜由中央編列預算補助以上"},{"start":18590.046,"end":18600.149,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次"},{"start":18615.573,"end":18622.855,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第"},{"start":18641.3,"end":18642.6,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":18665.885,"end":18674.552,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":18686.459,"end":18699.697,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員"},{"start":18701.479,"end":18713.386,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．"},{"start":18731.377,"end":18734.018,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":18748.488,"end":18763.561,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員"},{"start":18764.802,"end":18768.783,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":18786.508,"end":18806.784,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":18811.254,"end":18826.083,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期內政委員劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員劉建國等19"},{"start":18839.831,"end":18841.632,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":18862.647,"end":18879.263,"text":"五千多億然後112年超收了大概三千多億今年上半年到五月份其實也超收了一千多億所以我希望說財政部跟主席總書這邊是說到底是怎麼樣編列不出預算是說明年編列出來還是後年編列不出來"},{"start":18879.944,"end":18883.727,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":18910.465,"end":18932.992,"text":"主席、各委員、主席總署就剛才所詢的問題再做一個簡要的回覆第一個是委員講到那個主席講到說編列預算由中央補助預算的問題就是我剛才已經講說因為地方支付法規定說是這個殯葬設施管理是屬於地方自治的事項所以應該由其他的自有裁員優先編列預算"},{"start":18933.852,"end":18956.429,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":18960.632,"end":18976.683,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22次全"},{"start":18984.858,"end":18987.941,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、"},{"start":19009.002,"end":19014.345,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":19029.872,"end":19030.653,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":19055.049,"end":19061.751,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":19081.851,"end":19107.826,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »:是不是還有一位給他說明完,等一下請張宏祿召委來發言。衛福部報告,對於殯葬管理條例跟社會救助法,它是兩個不同的法規跟執行的一個方式。那社會救助法由衛福部來主管,那我們對於今天委員所提案,低跟中低收戶可以來申請這個殯葬補助,我們並沒有排除,本來就在我們的對象。"},{"start":19108.266,"end":19110.448,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":19133.527,"end":19142.277,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":19154.582,"end":19164.727,"text":"一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體"},{"start":19175.993,"end":19179.335,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":19191.247,"end":19201.274,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":19213.041,"end":19216.243,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":19241.161,"end":19252.854,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次"},{"start":19257.388,"end":19266.714,"text":"一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22次全體委員"},{"start":19282.219,"end":19293.243,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":19305.248,"end":19324.479,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全"},{"start":19332.83,"end":19362.139,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。厲時動議有關殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一修正為各直轄市縣市政府列冊之低收入戶中低收入戶使用直轄市縣市或鄉鎮市所經營或委託民間經營代理代管之下列公立殯葬設施免收使用管理相關費用依活化廠二骨灰海存放設施全向骨灰海存放設施免費之標準由直轄市縣市政府定之至於相關經費由內政部協調相關部會及地方政府辦理"},{"start":19362.699,"end":19367.641,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員"},{"start":19377.987,"end":19394.553,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":19411.909,"end":19418.771,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．事由．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．"},{"start":19444.116,"end":19446.717,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案等六案以及討論事項二所列的議案"},{"start":19473.7,"end":19495.677,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯"},{"start":19498.479,"end":19503.244,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":19522.09,"end":19547.146,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","委員發言時間":"08:30:50 - 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陳主任內政部警政署李振曉副署長警政部今天兩頭跑嘛好幾個委員會都有謝謝你們刑事警察局黃任聰副局長金管會邱淑珍副主委謝謝你銀行局林志吉副局長"},{"start":2107.192,"end":2124.47,"text":"政期會、政期局、證券期貨局黃厚明副局長以上是我們各單位的列席人員本次會議邀請數位部長、NCC代理主委"},{"start":2125.515,"end":2137.366,"text":"行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、刑事警察局及金管會委員就我國打詐成效與防制．進行專題報告．並備質詢。"},{"start":2143.503,"end":2156.049,"text":"接下來我們請列席機關來報告那我們也希望說如果你有完整的書面報告把它稍微精簡重點化一點首先第一位請數位部黃燕南部長報告"},{"start":2166.457,"end":2184.26,"text":"主席、各位委員今天應邀列席交通委員會就數位發展部以下簡稱速發部打詐業務成效跟防制提出報告並就此向各位委員請議請各位委員不吝示教"},{"start":2185.879,"end":2207.99,"text":"數發部作為數位經濟相關的產業的主管機關依行政院112年5月10日通過新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版主辦加強電商業者資安維護防制第三方支付詐騙防制遊戲點數成為詐騙工具及協辦建立惡意簡訊男主機制的策略外"},{"start":2215.553,"end":2239.714,"text":"為加強防詐措施我們在更於113年7月12日立法院三讀通過總統113年7月31日公布的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例以下簡稱打詐專法納入四個主要的業者一個就是網路廣告平台業者第三方支付"},{"start":2241.296,"end":2243.5,"text":"支付服務業、電商業、網路連線遊戲業、標籌業者落實防詐措施,達到減少接觸、減少誤信、減少損害三個目標。"},{"start":2257.99,"end":2287.424,"text":"此外,配合行政院在1月起實施的打詐綱領2.0版明年1月起實施打詐綱領2.0版速發部已經啟動研修作業,延續打詐綱領1.5版的四詐、堵詐、阻詐、懲詐的四大面向以外,將新增防詐的面向由速發部主責,豈能就數位經濟所產生源頭的防止詐欺犯罪危害以下就具體措施說明如下"},{"start":2289.099,"end":2294.47,"text":"四個業者,第一個大類就是網路廣告平台業者這裡面我們有第一個就是"},{"start":2296.479,"end":2321.765,"text":"對於打詐、裝潢、納管的業者我們要公告首先已經公告了所謂符合一定規模的網路廣告平台業者目前公告的是在9月16日的時候我們公告有4個平台商有6個所謂的平台是符合這個我們的所謂的這個廣告的這個規模的業者那這裡面包括Google跟YouTube"},{"start":2322.325,"end":2339.117,"text":"還有這個LINE還有META裡面的Facebook跟Instagram還有TikTok總共有4個業者6個平台是被納管那在這個納管之後我們要求再根據打詐專法第29條第一項的境外業者"},{"start":2343.42,"end":2363.234,"text":"在規定在今年就是在這個月的10月31日以前要以書面指定法律代表並向速發部提出法律代表的姓名、名稱、住所、事務所或營業所、電話及電子郵件信箱以後會根據這個打詐的這個詐欺的風險變化我們會適時調整更新這個業者的名單"},{"start":2368.567,"end":2394.837,"text":"第二個工作是我們會研究相關的執法打詐狀法的相關執法這裡面會要求業者要做這個業者這個廣告商跟廣告投放商的身份認證機跟這個透明度的一些報告然後呢也要這個在預定在這個業執法的公告會在11月3年12月30日以前完成公告建立更安全的網路廣告環境"},{"start":2396.097,"end":2412.324,"text":"第二個大項就是我們開發了一個工具叫做網路詐騙通報查詢網出發部就根據這個詐騙的樣態分析我們每天用AI用各項技術去巡檢可以發現5000到10000個所謂的詐騙廣告這個通報查詢網可以讓民眾查詢、通告"},{"start":2421.007,"end":2437.228,"text":"那可以再下載這個APP,我們目前APP已經在目前9月30號的Beta版已經公告提供民眾下載來使用那另外就是我們對偽冒名人的網路詐騙廣告"},{"start":2440.452,"end":2457.191,"text":"蘇發部在5月下旬成立公眾人物訪詐通報專用信箱目前有240個民人建立通報管道加速偽冒名人廣告的下架機制蘇發部在"},{"start":2459.248,"end":2463.712,"text":"12月在12年12月29號就開始詐騙樣態分析113年5月啟動公眾人物反詐騙通報專用郵箱經過這個到113年9月底為止通報網路平台詐騙廣告跟粉絲廣告已經下架了"},{"start":2478.783,"end":2499.872,"text":"下架到10月已經下架了5萬多筆那在整體金融投資的掃描的案件裡面113年我們在最多是最多曾經有8萬多筆的假的金融投資廣告到113年9月已經下降到1萬4千多筆大概下降至少80%"},{"start":2501.392,"end":2510.804,"text":"身份冒充,就是冒充名人的廣告、詐騙廣告,113年單週最高曾經到4萬多件,現在已經下降到1139月大概是7,448件。"},{"start":2513.157,"end":2536.974,"text":"那第二大類是電商業者電商業者主要我們是加強電商的治安維護措施那這裡面包括就是包括建立電商的行政檢查確定他們有足夠的治安的防護然後也在這裡面對治安做集合然後確定他們能夠加入這個我們的治安的防護的一個標準那在這個成效就是在"},{"start":2537.854,"end":2547.189,"text":"目前112年在目前165的全民防騙網的公告風險賣場裡面已經沒有所謂的大型電商平台"},{"start":2548.035,"end":2561.403,"text":"那第三大類是線上遊戲業那主要我們用的技術是就是我們會督促業者做端點的這個所謂資安的驗證就OTP的驗證機制然後呢線上遊戲端督促業者針對遊戲帳號進行儲值監控跟遊戲異常的監控那推動所謂的點數儲值入點延遲入點"},{"start":2576.781,"end":2599.349,"text":"並搭配點數防詐鎖卡平台讓玩家發現被詐騙的時候可以到平台進行點數鎖定用這樣的一個機制我們目前看到的是過去在112年最多有一個月1600件的詐騙目前已經降到一個月大概是100到300件的詐騙那第四大類是第三方的支付業者"},{"start":2600.149,"end":2626.283,"text":"那這個業者裡面第一個我們用洗錢防制法要求第三方支付落實法尊我們速發部已經查核41家的所謂第三方支付業者那在目前這個在EAO經營面我們要求跟金融網絡達成共識在金融銀行將會對所謂的高風險業者不再提供虛擬帳戶服務"},{"start":2628.192,"end":2640.077,"text":"要求業者要提供燃料登錄那目前登錄有86家目前來申請登錄有86家通過66家那在行政的協助面"},{"start":2641.677,"end":2666.578,"text":"在113年3月上線第三方支付業者虛擬帳號查詢平台、匯整能量登錄、公告業者虛擬帳號銀行代碼等,並建立業者跟警檢調單位的快速溝通管道。在113年9月32日已經查詢了2萬6千多筆,整體流程從過去的7天到30天縮短成1天乘3天,加速圈存受詐的款項,降低民眾的損害。"},{"start":2669.451,"end":2696.002,"text":"再來就是我們要求打詐裝潢要求第三方業者的一些防詐措施發現設詐設詐客戶的後我們會延後撥款跟拒絕業務往來並透過保存紀錄與同業聯防通報與防堵犯罪者繼續利用第三方支付來從事詐欺行動那蘇發部在113年9月27日完成第三方支付"},{"start":2698.337,"end":2721.793,"text":"業務儀式設詐客戶認定及控管措施辦法將會在已經公告作業將在113年12月30日前發布實施以利業者遵循另外就是我們在技術發展我們也發展了一些技術讓其他單位跟政府其他單位可以使用一個就是我們推出111端碼簡訊服務那這個111端碼簡訊服務"},{"start":2725.413,"end":2732.276,"text":"讓民眾可以辨識公部門簡訊．降低民眾遭受政府資訊詐騙風險．到113年9月底．已經有331個機關使用．發送超過將近4000萬的簡訊．另外就是我們也推動了三頁檢碼簡訊的服務．"},{"start":2744.1,"end":2760.813,"text":"為防堵詐騙集團偽冒企業檢訊,我們速發部跟協調電信事業確保商業檢碼充足無虞,並與協助攔阻與商業檢碼相同的境內境外的語音或檢訊,並要求系統業者取得治安相關的認證。"},{"start":2762.074,"end":2779.619,"text":"目前已經有富邦人壽跟國泰人壽推出68999、68168等無碼的商業簡訊電信業者中華電信推出123、遠傳推出888、台哥大推出935、六碼短碼簡訊降低民眾遭假冒簡訊詐騙的風險"},{"start":2782.677,"end":2799.384,"text":"一夜市的廣告的藍組由臺灣網路資訊中心成立了DNSRPG的一個自律機制過去我們經過DNSRPG機制的屏蔽及詐騙恐怕我們共藍組了23,588個假冒網站的網站另外就是發展AI技術防止詐騙手法"},{"start":2812.285,"end":2826.369,"text":"蘇發部研發補助AI的技術用於主詐的功能從銀行端補助富邦銀行1、2年透過鷹眼防詐系統成功攬主詐騙共有將559件主詐金額超過24.3億元"},{"start":2837.284,"end":2857.598,"text":"打擊詐欺為我國首要任務之一．各機關正透過政策工具．機關間彼此合作、公私協力、協作．豈能降低詐騙的發生．訴發部與內政部、通常會、金管會．法務部等單位共同組成聯合防線．並針對各種詐騙手法及態樣．"},{"start":2860.78,"end":2888.715,"text":"持續滾動檢討、精進各項措施、積極防治亦協助民眾、產業各部會及檢警調導入數位科技及資訊安全等技術應用聯合各方防堵詐騙集團以上報告進行指教並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝好謝謝王部長"},{"start":2892.285,"end":2908.328,"text":"在報告之前因為我們有看到我們9月20號第一次這個會期第一次院會針對於我們NCC代理主委的一個備詢資格我們的院長有才事當然主要才事的一個精神是"},{"start":2909.445,"end":2911.146,"text":"我建議就坐在位置報告尤其是投保會"},{"start":2940.209,"end":2949.114,"text":"這個部分因為還沒有明確還沒有明確以前我還是建議都坐在位置報告就好"},{"start":2958.136,"end":2975.649,"text":"這個部分我是建議這樣啦因為確確實實不管是那個翁副主委、代主委或者所有的人最以通保會所有的作為、硬作為而未作為行政院也沒有明確化職務以前"},{"start":2976.77,"end":2998.785,"text":"所以你要報告就在這裡報告就坐在位置報告這樣一樣你上台跟一樣不能主任秘書來代理主委這一點我本席是只反對意見所以你要報告在這裡報告因為單位也太多不要耽擱大家的時間因為身份未明確就包括"},{"start":2999.525,"end":3016.795,"text":"NCC通報會所有的人通通都是有質疑的所以在這個部分我還是建議主席才是在現在的位置報告就好不管誰去報告因為職務都有問題職務都有問題"},{"start":3021.039,"end":3043.089,"text":"謝謝國政委員的一個會議詢問、一個建議。我想這樣,確實我們在這一陣子不管是院會或者委員會、委員之間都有不同的一個看法,尤其對於立法院通過三讀的一個NCC的組織法,我們也覺得是所有代表立法院通過的一個法令沒有受到尊重,這是事實。"},{"start":3044.269,"end":3065.968,"text":"那不過我也跟國政委員報告一下因為我覺得不能為一個任何一個委員會或者是一個組織的一個爭議來改變我們交通委員會我們既有的傳承的我們的原則我們的原則就是所有的官員在這裡報告那他們有什麼問題所以我現在請祖密這個報告的原因是因為"},{"start":3066.768,"end":3067.489,"text":"有時候組密紀錄也不太好啦"},{"start":3095.2,"end":3117.108,"text":"我說實在我當然這個一例的事他的紀律啊他的紀錄啊是不良的比翁代理主委還不良所以你叫一個不良的叫另外一個更不良的人上去報告主席當然我要尊重你最後裁定但是最起碼的話我想我們委員會所有委員"},{"start":3118.288,"end":3142.692,"text":"最起碼還是要有一點尊嚴吧所以這點當然主席最後怎麼裁我是尊重但是我要凸顯一個問題不良的代理主委跟更糟糕更不良的主秘去做報告效益如何如果主席認為效益可以那我當然是服從主席的裁定"},{"start":3145.046,"end":3161.396,"text":"好 謝謝林國臻委員這個其實剛剛一席話確實有很多讓NCC所有的這個官員你們可以好好去思考一下用心良苦不過我剛剛看了NCC名單再往下看可能合乎我們標準的應該沒有"},{"start":3162.759,"end":3164.98,"text":"那我不會上廁所吧因為我不聽因為你單靠我們都"},{"start":3199.464,"end":3224.544,"text":"謝謝莊委主席、各位委員大家好今天很榮幸代替翁代主委來跟各位報告以下緊究通常會打詐防制措施及成效進行專題一、新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領通常會依照行政院新世代打擊詐欺策略綱領1.5版負責統籌的面向是賭詐"},{"start":3228.347,"end":3246.94,"text":"通傳會防制電信詐欺辦理情形防渡境外篡改來化詐騙實施攔阻國際偽貿來化並在民眾接聽國際來化提前提供語音警示我們的成效國際來化化物由最高的112年5月"},{"start":3248.973,"end":3250.875,"text":"總量下降98%詐騙集團大幅減少利用國際來話來進行詐騙"},{"start":3274.18,"end":3292.079,"text":"國際二指人頭門號詐騙作為工具,112年6月定班電信服務 指令,針對企業客戶申請門號數進行總量管理,非本國籍人士申辦門號以一門為原則,簽證日期較短者以一副卡為原則。"},{"start":3294.181,"end":3306.284,"text":"113年4月26日定定的電信事業用戶使用管理辦法強化雙證查核法律基礎並納管虛擬行動通信業務3.要求業者設立獨立集合部門就遭165通報斷話之電信門號及高風險門訊進行加強行政檢查督促電信事業加強管理並落實KYC機制3.攔阻惡意簡訊我們主要措施一"},{"start":3323.188,"end":3350.199,"text":"針對境內商業設詐防堵措施一、要求業者需查核發送者落實KYC才可以發送二、建立惡意攔阻、惡意檢訊攔阻機制就關鍵字部分必須要在發送之前要予以過濾二、針對境內檢訊個人設詐防堵措施針對短時間內大量發送檢訊的行為提出我們也提出了單日超過"},{"start":3350.979,"end":3370.351,"text":"一定上線之後．要關閉簡訊發放功能．那目前這個上線是50折．那同時也建立白名單．對於有需要發送大量簡訊者．也不會因此而受到影響．3NCC推動商業通用檢碼．使通信使簡訊來源易於辨識．那除了中華電信的123．遠傳的888．臺哥大的935．那開頭6碼簡訊．那除此之外目前我們已經"},{"start":3379.677,"end":3402.696,"text":"在協調相關業者已有國泰人壽的68168、副幫人壽的68999使用無碼通用檢碼目前持續開放電信事業來申請使用督導電信事業針對DMT偽基地台AI分析基地台異常使用行為來提供警政機關相關情資以便追查犯罪"},{"start":3405.636,"end":3430.015,"text":"詐欺、犯罪、危害防制條例通過之後,我們相關的配套措施如下。一、透過簡訊資料庫查詢來聯防。那未來民眾呢,在申辦電信服務的時候,或是經司法機關通知有關有需要做重新查核者,電信事業必須要透過資料來核對相關的資料以做驗證,以確保用戶資料的正確性。那另外,我們也會藉機"},{"start":3431.297,"end":3431.577,"text":"2.高風險用戶管理"},{"start":3446.594,"end":3472.626,"text":"司法機關通知限制或停止提供電信服務打一定門號數的這些用戶,我們將依照打詐專法的規定,那各電信事業將必須要將它列為高風險用戶,來限制該用戶在三年期間內僅能夠申辦一門或是一項電信服務,那我們就俗稱為這個三正條款。相關次數的計算及規定的通報流程,本會將在113年年底完成公告。"},{"start":3476.691,"end":3497.539,"text":"就是我們在對黑名卡方面的這些管制那黑名卡遭受到不當的使用呢從事詐欺行為那這些境外高風險電信事業及漫遊服務呢我們近期已跟相關單位就指標達成共識包括用於詐欺犯罪具體數量及比例有沒有實名認證是否以預付卡形式進行販售並審酌境外電信事業所屬國家或地區"},{"start":3501.761,"end":3511.609,"text":"配合司法互助或跨國犯罪情形來辦理後續的這些公告加強高風險門市查核我們也將針對高風險門市加強查核要求定性事業提報用戶號碼查詢抽測計畫並定期抽測"},{"start":3522.055,"end":3549.137,"text":"打詐是目前政府首要的任務本會將會持續督導電信事業落實辦理暫定民眾受騙機會、達成減少接觸、減少誤信、減少損害這三解目標新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0我們增至以上措施,我們會再提出精進策略、行動方案、具體措施、滾動式檢討推動堵詐策略以上報告,敬請各位委員支持、指教。謝謝"},{"start":3552.452,"end":3580.112,"text":"好 謝謝主秘 這個很熟悉啊 資料是有你彙整的嘛上來表現一下 請回座好 接下來因為還有這個我們邀請的一個機關那我是不是能夠再請兩個機關這個來做一個報告簡報就是包括了行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心跟內政部這個警政署副署長那法務部跟警管會就是直接來詢問有沒有意見"},{"start":3581.736,"end":3593.883,"text":"還是你們要報告 準備很久沒有 沒意見嗎接下來我們有請行政院打詐指揮中心黃國思執行秘書來報告"},{"start":3602.124,"end":3626.021,"text":"主席、各位委員先生、各位在場的各位先進今天應邀列席貴委員會的工作報告並備詢首先誠摯地感謝各位委員對於行政院打詐工作的支持與重視期盼未來能夠繼續給予策略與指教以下僅就我國打詐的成效與防制提出以下的簡單說明如下"},{"start":3626.641,"end":3656.093,"text":"首先,隨著電信網路自由化以及全球金融交易的多元化在資通科技的發展導致新型態的詐欺犯罪手法不斷的發生政府全力執行各項詐欺犯罪的偵訪策略但是,民眾對於我們詐欺犯罪能感威脅所以,行政院在今年8月27日將打擊詐欺辦公室轉型為打擊詐欺犯罪指揮中心"},{"start":3656.753,"end":3672.98,"text":"除了延續既有的任務以外我們更落實跨部會的協調平台強化府院的通報、部會的協調以及社會溝通三個層次以提升政府的工作效能其次在詐欺犯罪的增防策略"},{"start":3673.88,"end":3688.307,"text":"建於打詐綱領1.5實施即將屆滿．面對當前的詐欺犯罪情勢．有重新檢討各項策略的必要．所以由行政院團隊著手研擬的打詐綱領2.0．在策略面"},{"start":3692.089,"end":3704.395,"text":"從賭詐以及主詐面向當中將數位經濟產業相關的事項進行統合新設的防詐也就是數位經濟面向是由數位發展部來統籌在賭詐部分則配合調整為電信服務面"},{"start":3709.737,"end":3737.275,"text":"在法制面的部分結合了詐欺犯罪危害防治條例、刑事訴訟法的特殊強制處分專章還有洗錢防治法以及通訊保障及監察法等打詐新釋法以落實執行各項的措施在組織面,行政院為了建立跨部會的協調平台打擊詐欺辦公室轉型為打詐指揮中心由內政部次長兼任指揮官"},{"start":3739.158,"end":3748.475,"text":"統籌打詐政策的規劃並增設執行秘書來總理業務的推行以有效的遏止詐欺犯罪的發生另外"},{"start":3750.046,"end":3778.388,"text":"本院由內政部擔任中央主管機關跟金管會、通傳會、訴發部還有法務部等機關共同有制定了詐欺犯罪危害防制條例感謝我們立法院朝野黨團對於詐欺犯罪防制條例的重視與支持能夠在本院提出審議後密集的召開會議審查跟協商完成立法目前本院客政督導相關部會"},{"start":3779.289,"end":3808.649,"text":"制定詐防條例的授權執法那執法的草案也陸續著手進行預告的程序預計會在年底完成公告在明年正式上路讓我國的打詐法制更加完善健全第三各面向的執行成效統計從去年6月到今年8月在市詐部分透過多元管道進行防詐宣導我們的觸及率已經高達1億6千多萬人次另外"},{"start":3809.549,"end":3823.579,"text":"透過各式的方法來攔阻被害款項也有新台幣137億多元攔阻下來了在賭詐面向透過業者的配合RCS的惡意簡訊的攔阻"},{"start":3825.782,"end":3832.745,"text":"詐騙簡訊累計有1200多萬則另外在人頭門號的詐騙工具停斷化也高達2956門並且同時我們指導的各電信業者強化認識客戶風險的管理機制同時輔導三大工協會的會員來辦理網購程序的防詐相關警示措施還有物流銀碼剛剛我們"},{"start":3852.237,"end":3875.069,"text":"經管會的通傳率的先進已經有特別提報出來那在主詐的部分本國銀行已將共通性的異常教育太陽都納入了內部預警指標同時本國全體銀行也都已經完成了申請約定轉帳加強防詐的措施在懲詐面向針對各電信網路詐欺類型的"},{"start":3876.329,"end":3894.872,"text":"執行了17波的查緝專案．總共有查獲2,990餘件的犯罪集團．查過的不法犯罪所得超過149億．同時透過真神移赴法院調解．以加速返還被害人所受的損害金額．也超過了20億元．"},{"start":3896.834,"end":3914.81,"text":"結餘,為了因應日新月異的詐騙手法,持續從源頭來落實防詐的作為,行政院團隊也正研擬新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0,以上由源頭管理,下由輕於懲罰為精神,刻與金融"},{"start":3915.39,"end":3915.41,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":3945.992,"end":3967.081,"text":"黃執行秘書那我先確認一下議事錄來各位在座的委員針對於我們這個剛剛在電視都有聽到嘛議事錄有沒有意見上次會議錄的議事錄沒有意見那議事錄確定那我們今天的金融監督機關報告最後一位請我們內政部警政署李正曉副署長報告"},{"start":3981.468,"end":3995.896,"text":"主席、公務委員、議會的女士先生大家早安首先感謝公務委員對警政工作的支持與主教那以下警政署請就目前我們打詐的成效跟防制"},{"start":3997.256,"end":4024.977,"text":"就政策面還有執行面先向各位委員報告在政策法規的部分我們行政院推動修訂打詐薪事法行政院訂定詐欺犯罪防治條例修正刑事訴訟法特殊強制處分專章及修正通信保障及檢查法及洗錢防治法等打詐薪事法為警察執法提供依據"},{"start":4026.243,"end":4036.703,"text":"也加強對金融機構及網路平台的監管公司協力阻斷詐欺犯罪另外在新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領的重點"},{"start":4038.888,"end":4060.365,"text":"原來的打詐綱領1.5沒有包括數位經濟面的防詐目前加入了數位部由數位部統籌的防詐面一共加上原來的試詐、堵詐、阻詐、懲詐等五大面向積極打詐抑制詐欺的犯罪"},{"start":4061.701,"end":4089.634,"text":"在市詐的部分由我們內政部來主責強化分城、分鎮、分嶺實施預防的宣導具體的作為有﹐針對老人青少年提款車手製造宣導的素材應應不同的族群舉辦適當的宣導活動官方的平台結合各地警政機關進行市詐信息的推波"},{"start":4090.987,"end":4112.214,"text":"另外,應用平面電子、電視、廣播和網路媒體投效宣導素材,擴大信息的層面。在我們的成效部分,打詐綱領實施以來,僅屬於各公司部門協力合作與具有下列的成效。在市詐面的部分,"},{"start":4114.265,"end":4133.234,"text":"運用社群媒體等多元管道進行推播提高民眾防詐的意識。第二強化分層分眾分領的宣導在年輕族群的部分跟教育部合作一網少年犯罪113年上半年全國入班入校宣導場次達4358場"},{"start":4137.571,"end":4158.458,"text":"在中高齡的族群部分與宗教界合作深入觸及中高族群分屬提供反詐騙先導的素材給宗教團體,則有宗教活動實施施詐的教育深入拓展民眾觸及的管道,強化反詐的意識"},{"start":4160.216,"end":4184.815,"text":"第3個部份是加強跟民間企業公司協力的攔阻警政機關透過跟民間企業諸如銀行、保險、證券、投信、創投等金融領域簽訂合作備忘錄的模式建立資訊共享的平台交流最新的詐騙手法和防範策略發送自詐的資訊建構主詐的防護網"},{"start":4188.652,"end":4214.512,"text":"通力合作打擊金融詐欺犯罪在賭詐的部分從去年7月1號到今年的9月26號刑事局收報詐騙廣告15萬8千多則經通報相關單位完成下架第二,完成要求電信事業落實門號申辦審核減少人頭的門號"},{"start":4219.495,"end":4242.602,"text":"從今年1月到8月跟NCC借接資料庫攔阻境外詐騙電話411萬一件減少詐騙來話也推動電商業者應用物流銀碼技術減少個資的外洩在主詐的部分刑事局成立金融資料調閱小組"},{"start":4245.169,"end":4266.063,"text":"從去年6月28日到今年的9月25日,成功攔阻3.3億元。推動銀行加入英元的市詐聯盟,目前已有35家本國的銀行加入。偵測管制異常的帳戶18000多戶,攔阻3億多元。"},{"start":4271.946,"end":4293.373,"text":"建立超商物流退後退款機制今年1到8月協助民眾退款1.66億165專線在民眾報案協助民眾緊急簽存詐騙被害款項在懲詐部分統計今年1到8月警察機關偵破詐欺集團"},{"start":4299.083,"end":4318.229,"text":"達1439件、氣候13208人、查扣不法利的73.4億元另外本署也跟高檢署合作今年實施三波的全國打擊詐欺的專案也都獲得相當多的成果"},{"start":4319.502,"end":4347.691,"text":"另外本屬刑事局也成立打詐情資延期小組．聚焦打擊高層次的詐團核心．目前過濾出的情資有272件．查後165件．比例達60%．最後我特別要再強調．全國各國．全球的各國皆面臨詐欺犯罪的嚴峻挑戰．"},{"start":4349.346,"end":4374.347,"text":"警政署跟各國以時俱進提出打詐對應政策跟措施強化民眾的視詐並全面打擊黑幫結合詐欺犯罪期盼我們大院跟社會各界給予支持透過公司的協力有效打擊詐欺犯罪以上報告公請指導好謝謝李副組長"},{"start":4377.083,"end":4397.529,"text":"今天列席機關報告完畢但是我們的法務部監管會他也有提供書面報告請參閱我們現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項第一詢答時間初期委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘第二委員發言登記於10點30分截止第三各委員如有臨時提議案"},{"start":4398.989,"end":4410.998,"text":"請於10點提出以便議事人員會診第4暫定10點30分休息10分鐘第5中午原則上不休息現在我們就請登記第一位林國成委員發言"},{"start":4429.412,"end":4454.552,"text":"好 謝謝主席我特別要強調一下我跟翁代理副主委無厭無醜私交也不錯但是公事公辦行政院院會韓院長做出裁定的時候行政院到現在為止針對代理合法與否"},{"start":4455.933,"end":4470.8,"text":"都未曾交代所以雖然看起來應邀到本宴來但是最起碼這是一個對法治一個尊重所以特別在這裡要重申"},{"start":4472.599,"end":4492.53,"text":"違法代理應不應該下台行政院要盡快的去做適當的一個處置讓他明確化所以這裡特別啊要重申那另外一個我在想主席我要請黃部長還有打詐的黃主任秘書來"},{"start":4510.814,"end":4537.075,"text":"好 兩位首長齁其實為什麼不讓NCC上來第一個連媒體都管不好大詐怎麼會做得好連媒體公正公平都督導的做不到那今天報告了這麼多當然我們還是期待因為我們立法院也適度修了一些法規讓你們在偵辦的時候"},{"start":4540.557,"end":4565.691,"text":"包括調查局包括刑事警察局在本黨團黃總召去訪問的時候我們就認為這個華是缺華所以有很多華我們都提供我們的意見也提供讓我們在執行法律的時候當然要事半功倍也就是你們有羅波"},{"start":4566.852,"end":4582.519,"text":"也有棍子這樣才有辦法去防止這些那個這個那另外一個我簡單的問一下黃部長跟我們黃執行秘書昨天我們民營機構的聯電偽創台塑化都被駭客入侵請問"},{"start":4592.839,"end":4608.784,"text":"我們國內的資安到底誰在把關連民營的這些生產公司都會被駭客入侵請問黃部長請問黃執行秘書針對這個事情你簡單回答一下"},{"start":4614.295,"end":4614.795,"text":"你們發現這個問題怎麼處理?"},{"start":4644.048,"end":4644.208,"text":"部長﹖黃部長﹖"},{"start":4670.814,"end":4680.344,"text":"其實駭客的問題不是今天才發生啦其實我們前一段時間我們公家機關也被駭客入侵啊這個也是一個問題這個也跟打詐是有關欸不要這裡只有黃片但是駭客倉皇這樣也不好吧"},{"start":4692.436,"end":4706.538,"text":"這不是一系列執行秘書就變成行政院有一個打詐謊騙的一個指揮中心結果呢明有設置但是事實上會更糟糕這個不好"},{"start":4708.18,"end":4734.203,"text":"所以我特別啊特別要提醒黃部長特別要聽我們黃子密在這個部分你我跟你講啊真正會做壞事的都是日新夜異的技術有時候你們都抓不到啦所以我特別要請黃部長我說實在的接下來我就要特別提醒我們的施策會有很多東西是很重要的"},{"start":4735.064,"end":4750.413,"text":"很重要的所以我現在就是要來請教我們施策會這幾天剛換的這些人事的問題我請問一下施策會這個董事長執行長有沒有任期制部長"},{"start":4758.055,"end":4778.136,"text":"施策會原則上我們尊重董事會的那個因為這是董事會的機制嘛那執行長的任命是由董事長任命的所以我們有沒有權督導我們是屬於我們素產署的督導但是我跟你講我跟你投訴一下不能因為"},{"start":4780.083,"end":4797.217,"text":"我說實在就是濫油油那什麼事情通通可以做你知道現在董事長跟執行長任期未到阿你們就是拿了一個這個濫油油的牌子他就可以去馬上"},{"start":4798.098,"end":4825.398,"text":"你知道現在換的黃仲明董事長你知道他是做什麼起家嗎他有辦法去設計這些我們需要的這些網路嗎當然你這個人不是你派但是我要拜託你嚴格監督不能因為他是賴悠悠那大家你是資料去提供一下阿最近賴悠悠不是很慘嗎"},{"start":4827.492,"end":4845.237,"text":"所以這個部分因為他所有的委辦都是我們政府機關給這個單位所以我希望大家不能把這些知通的東西當兒校這是一個專業的單位知錯會是一個專業的單位耶"},{"start":4849.978,"end":4862.841,"text":"黃部長我知道你無權去干涉可是你要去盡到監督之責任啊不能因為他是賴油油啊什麼都不管加入信賴就吃香喝辣還有一點我要請教我們這個部長打破慣例他上任就要知心請問這合不合理嗎"},{"start":4875.08,"end":4901.835,"text":"一切按照這個組織法事實上是並沒有說好來你來說你想說你說合不合理合不合法嘛這個財團法人他有知心比如說他過去都是教授間的因為他在學校本來就有知心說他都領社馬會那這個那本來就可以知心對那他這個知心多高你知道嗎知不知道你你你是不是董事會成員"},{"start":4903.544,"end":4910.513,"text":"我是董事會成員那怎麼通過的你大聲告訴人家過去是怎麼樣現在是怎麼樣過去因為都是學校教授兼任現在是專任拜託他有專才嗎"},{"start":4922.338,"end":4939.577,"text":"他以前是做什麼?遊戲公司的董事長啦只有這些跟我們這個業務有什麼關係所以喔 別說 還比較難得啦你是一個董事還是要有董事的尊嚴但是我要拜託我們黃部長"},{"start":4941.893,"end":4957.92,"text":"當然你無法去抗計但是你總是有一個正目光的擔當不對就不對不可以就不可以該就正就要就正所以這點我還要請我們黃部長要有所作為"},{"start":4959.008,"end":4980.574,"text":"我會督導我們會督導要督導因為他所有不要忘了喔他現在在領專業加薪去年度還虧損了2億喔這些花名單位他編類預算他說來自我們政府機關的委託案所以在這個部分黃部長我也知道"},{"start":4982.028,"end":5010.516,"text":"包括我在內無法抵抗賴友友但是最起碼我們政府官要有尊嚴啊我們立法委員要有尊嚴啊不是嗎所以我希望黃部長你是一個老實人想要做事情但是也要有擔當啊不能因為為首亦為支撤會變成賴友友之友會那這樣就不好因為那個支撤會是多麼重要的單位欸"},{"start":5011.696,"end":5038.846,"text":"好不好 因為打詐還是需要他提供很多的專業的知識嘛所以這個部分 我要拜託黃部長 你的骨頭要硬一點啦該有所為 有所不為人情世故我贊成 但是不要連人情世故都沒有自己本身骨頭不夠硬 這樣的話就不是一個有為的政務官 好不好"},{"start":5041.338,"end":5057.648,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那我會基本上先從制度面剛講法規面來處理對啦 不行就不行啦好不好我們一切依照法規啦看這個組織法怎麼定我們就根據那來處理好 謝謝好 謝謝林委員接下來有請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":5075.622,"end":5099.981,"text":"謝謝主席,我們先請翁博忠主委好,翁主委委員好主委好那個有人爆料說你那個送禮用廠商去買單,這是怎麼回事?"},{"start":5101.837,"end":5127.104,"text":"好 謝謝委員給我這個澄清的機會那首先我有發新聞稿澄清沒有這件絕無此事另外我也主動的將相關的單據還有整個的過程送給政風去調查及說明原委那特資會的使用都是合乎法令的"},{"start":5128.129,"end":5134.398,"text":"所以這個是合法啦齁我先請教一下你到底是買這個海產送誰呃呃快證"},{"start":5138.632,"end":5162.363,"text":"那個這個海產都是全部送給我們的同仁就是在年結期送給你們NCC裡面的同仁我們NCC的同仁那你這個主管不錯啊會買禮物送給同仁我坦白講我的特製會不多但是三結的時候我們會買一些水果或者是一些農特產送給我們的同仁"},{"start":5163.359,"end":5185.211,"text":"OK因為坦白講我本來不知道你送誰想說奇怪NCC到底要送禮物給誰這個是送給同仁其實用你自己的特資費送給同仁我是覺得這一點還不錯啦是可以給你鼓勵啦那當然就是說其他的部分就是一切依法嘛所以你就是有照你特資費那個支出都有憑證嘛"},{"start":5186.632,"end":5204.577,"text":"報告委員有這件事情我有信心我經得起考驗絕對沒有不法希望對同仁好的態度可以繼續下去同仁感同身受還不錯另外我請教一下主委數位港就是臺灣"},{"start":5211.198,"end":5230.018,"text":"所有的海南登陸站都在北部南部只有一個仿山那量不夠那如果說我們高雄將來要發展我們的AI首都就是我們希望高雄是一個非常條件很好的地方那數位港NCC有沒有什麼概念就是設海南登陸站由誰來設怎麼設什麼時候設"},{"start":5233.275,"end":5246.972,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個海嵐的登陸站其實在台灣就像委員講的都是集中在北部但是在南部確實也有需要那我想說上次也有討論到在興達港"},{"start":5249.795,"end":5270.252,"text":"就是附近的那個就是煤船進來的那個渠道是從國安的角度從任性的角度從將來我們所有的超級電腦資料中心需要的角度那這個角度是不是高雄需要設一個海南登陸站有沒有這個必要南部確實是有需要因為這樣分散"},{"start":5271.252,"end":5293.462,"text":"假使是說你那個海南登陸站都是集中在北部的某些點沒有分散的話那這樣確實在任性發展的角度是所以就是從NCC的角度是100%贊成我們南部設海南登陸站因為要發展AI你一定要有海南進來而且要有規模的IDC進來所以NCC會贊成會幫忙"},{"start":5294.943,"end":5316.182,"text":"NCC是站在因為電管法上面有一個公眾電信那個網路查驗及使用管理辦法我們會來協助重點是誰可以來設這個海南登陸站這個部分的話就是要電信公司他假使願意提出申請電信公司是民間的"},{"start":5317.563,"end":5338.848,"text":"其實這個部分有很多的方式啦也是可以三家電信公司合資不過這個是關鍵基礎設施海嵐登陸站是關鍵基礎設施一定要就是說要是要本國的電信事業來ON比較好那關鍵基礎設施韌性的發展那到底是誰可以來主導"},{"start":5340.805,"end":5361.334,"text":"是NCC可以來主導還是數法部可以來主導因為這個NCC是監理單位這個有牽涉到就是整個AI產業的發展那或許是NCC管準不準嘛對不對我們就是那個Landing Station那個海欄站而已是不是請部長那個數法部部長就說這個到底可不可以設"},{"start":5366.141,"end":5371.607,"text":"那個 報告委員我是樂觀其成啦齁 這個從開展重新拉上 跟部長報告我現在就不知道誰來設啊"},{"start":5372.915,"end":5398.502,"text":"那個我們過去的例子像那個登陸站過去都是我有去查一下過去大概都是由電信公司提出申請然後去建設然後經過NCC核准那它建好以後我們速劃過去我們現在從國家的角度來思考就是它是韌性建設它是關鍵基礎設施國家的角度必須要有設從這個角度來看那如果民間都沒有人主動那我政府應該怎麼做"},{"start":5399.048,"end":5424.864,"text":"所以那個報告委員就我有去調查那個各式各樣的可能的方法那有一個方法就是那個我們那個就是像其實我那時候有建議說其實我們看到一個比如說像高雄有一個叫做戀愛5G的雅灣的5G這種方式這個model其實很好的model就是說建一個園區然後用5G IoT的這樣一個model去建那以這個模範是由高雄市政府提出"},{"start":5426.106,"end":5430.76,"text":"高雄市政府提出,那如果高雄市政府說配合中央,那中央有沒有想法?"},{"start":5432.702,"end":5459.717,"text":"因為這個經費還是要申請公建預算所以要有單位去申請公建預算那個我現在跟部長報告啦這個是關鍵基礎設施這個是韌性建設這是有關於國安跟治安甚至將來所有的AI的發展這對國家來講是重要的對不對完全同意那總是國家有個單位我說有人願意承擔來push這件事情"},{"start":5462.167,"end":5475.375,"text":"報告委員就是這個剛剛我講過就是這個東西這個東西本來就是應該要建設但是應該一起大家一起合作去做那我們願意來協調所以吼那個跟部長報告我現在問了很多單位"},{"start":5476.415,"end":5501.554,"text":"蘇巴部說願意協調 OKNCC說願意幫忙 OK市政委覺得這個重要 OK那港澳公司也覺得這個需要他們的地他們也OK然後那個台電也認為說在我興達廠這裡電量充足是全國最好的一個場所也OK現在沒有人掛鈴鐺誰來掛鈴鐺誰來主導這件事那我從中央的角度就是說我今天假設啦"},{"start":5502.827,"end":5526.306,"text":"那個總統問你說 那個書法部你來主導 或者是有誰可以來主導 你要怎麼回答這個報告委員 就是我想我們再來開個會協調 看哪個單位出來出來 你知道我意思嗎對那個我問你 你是可以說這是誰負責誰負責 看誰那如果總統問你說這個是國家中央政策 一定要有那書法部的部長應該怎麼樣來協助承擔來幫忙"},{"start":5529.585,"end":5545.751,"text":"就是我們出來就是來協調各單位然後是不是對要協調部長你懂我意思嗎了解了解但是就是說我問你你的回答的方式就是這個大家都可以但是如果總統問你說這是國家重要建設一定要做那從數話部的角度要怎麼協助"},{"start":5547.093,"end":5574.688,"text":"那我們就是剛剛講就是依照過去過去那個海南上岸一開始都是電信公司去主導沒關係如果假設啦總統說那這件事就拜託你幫忙協調成功這樣子你可以答應嗎?我們就我們當然會會盡力部長你懂我意思嗎?因為我現在其實我已經很努力找了很多單位了已經萬事俱備只欠東風啦那東風呢如果是有人有肩膀把他扛下來這個就是東風"},{"start":5577.372,"end":5604.584,"text":"否則如果都沒人扛下來就是東風無力百花殘所以報告委員我們在就是說在近期我們會再來好不好再開一個會拜託這是我說的再說一遍這是國家重要建設對不對完全同意這是關鍵基礎測試對不對這是對國家韌性發展很重要對不對那這個其實對於甚至在國內的AI競技力到國外的競爭力都很重要對不對好"},{"start":5605.838,"end":5628.357,"text":"總統如果跟你說阿這個很重要勒你對不對覺得對不對對嘛那現在沒有人做應該怎麼做就是就是說依照我剛講的那個我們過去調查過去的建立的方式拜託那個部長因為我找不到人承擔我們在這個其實我剛講的最合適那不管我們中央單位怎麼協調就拜託部長來主導這樣OK嗎"},{"start":5630.146,"end":5654.651,"text":"我們再來協調可以你來幫忙協調到這件事情成功吧不然我現在你看我做了這麼多的努力已經各個單位我都問了走了一圈了啦那最後我就還在找到底誰可以把這件事情承擔下來那這個對台灣對城市對將來國家的發展都一定非常的好而且也非常的重要但是就是要有人做好不好"},{"start":5656.168,"end":5678.077,"text":"這個拜託部長來主導協調啦好不好好那最後還有一個小事齁聯電、偽創、台說化都受到駭客的攻擊那這個在也是治安的問題那事務發部有辦法處理嗎現在就是我們有觀察到這樣一個攻擊因為攻擊從政府攻擊開始擴散到民間齁"},{"start":5680.439,"end":5700.32,"text":"我剛剛有講過就是我們第一個有所謂情資分享我們有聯防的機制然後公司協力的聯防機制所以也歡迎就是希望各個單位民間公司來加入我們這樣一個聯防的所謂設的這樣一個機制能夠分享這樣供給情資遇到供給的時候我們會提供一些情資跟協助來分散這些供給的太陽"},{"start":5700.76,"end":5725.753,"text":"不過目前為止因為這公職所謂的DDOS阻斷式攻擊其實目前的傷害都不大而且很快就能夠恢復所以大概目前是沒有什麼資料外洩或是被嚴重入侵的事件不過我們在持續在關注啦但是治安還是要大家一起努力那當然就是說我也希望說趁這個機會講說我們有一個很重要的法案叫做治安法的修法這個法其實對"},{"start":5727.294,"end":5746.973,"text":"對我們在要求民間業者的那個資安人員的這個安排跟培訓很重要所以希望大院能夠儘速通過資安法讓我們有法能夠去監督這些民間機關OK那我想就是兩個角度嘛一個角度立法院我們自己會努力希望我們各黨派都可以支持那第二個角度就是說其實站在"},{"start":5747.654,"end":5747.674,"text":"蘇發布議員"},{"start":5768.851,"end":5785.319,"text":"好 謝謝許智傑委員那也請我們黃部長剛剛那個第一項這個這麼久的事情你要召集相關的單位提出具體的一個說法然後給許智傑委員好 謝謝接下來有請林俊憲委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":5793.991,"end":5815.167,"text":"本席邀請我們速發部黃岩南部長黃部長我們NCC黃主委、黃代理主委黃主委警政署、警政署今天誰來?副組長刑事李副組長副局長好了我問一下詐騙、詐騙專辦的事情刑事局一起來好部長您好好"},{"start":5823.837,"end":5840.196,"text":"部長好那我今天在跟你討論就是我們也列為國家重大施政的就是打擊詐騙那根據警政署的統計台灣過去假借這種親友名義就假親友的詐騙"},{"start":5841.497,"end":5856.053,"text":"成績一陣子很高啦那後來這種手法老舊了所以數量又減少最近又變多了警政署統計說假借親友的詐騙數量只有10%但是它會造成一個狀況"},{"start":5857.58,"end":5877.702,"text":"什麼狀況呢?最近很多民眾跟我反映我們在座的人可能都會接到我們的朋友告訴我們說我的帳號被盜了如果有人跟你借錢那不是真的我不知道你們有沒有這樣的經驗那你的朋友可能他的LINE帳號被盜或是WhatsApp什麼樣的反正就是他的一些通訊軟體被盜用了"},{"start":5880.533,"end":5908.039,"text":"現在這種詐騙手法越來越厲害了普通人要你參考用什麼寵物投票寶寶模特兒很可愛、很漂亮的東西利用人性柔軟的一面你就點擊進去給你輸入簡單的很快的你進去你就會你的帳篷就整個退了那現在問題在哪裡呢問題就是說那他"},{"start":5909.139,"end":5909.659,"text":"通常啊 都是當事人發現 都報案"},{"start":5929.06,"end":5929.801,"text":"誰會先發現?"},{"start":5929.801,"end":5952.239,"text":"一定是原來的使用者嘛,他才發現他被淘汰。所以大概一個程序是這樣,發現被盜然後報警,然後那裡就暫停處理。但是這個時間大概要一天,如果你發現你的帳號被盜,那請問你跟你的通訊軟體社交平台反映,他多久會把你的帳號幫你停掉?"},{"start":5954.108,"end":5980.161,"text":"這我不知道我們有開店嗎?通訊都一天一天已經足夠很長的時間讓它進行一些詐騙的事情那同時我想請問警政署就你們在偵辦的時候因為這種通訊軟體帳號用逃犯人大部分都是臉書還是那種LINE那現在臉書或LINE他們的公司對配合程度怎麼樣?"},{"start":5981.241,"end":6010.229,"text":"那我們是不是會調閱一些加害人、或者是被害人的相關資料來這項誰可以回答檢討署先回答委員好,謝謝委員垂訊這個問題是刑事局的副局長來回答有關在調閱這些涉案人臉書的資料跟LINE的資料目前臉書有14項罪名可以調那可是LINE的部分他堅持要我們用搜索票才可以做調閱所以現在是LINE的部分是比較辛苦的我們要"},{"start":6011.209,"end":6036.101,"text":"請到搜索票才可以調閱相關的資料簡單講當然是不配合啦當然是不配合啦但你請到搜索票也不是要騙多少人的啦那過去部長齁黃部長你我上次主席你講過嘛你說你會找找臉書溝通啊對不對你又要請人家臉書你又要請人家臉書他一藏起來都不配合所有的詐騙大部分都躲在臉書"},{"start":6037.421,"end":6061.623,"text":"那現在這種態度那你怎麼處理?那個的確委員所講我們這樣跟臉書已經喝過好幾次咖啡了那的確我們看到很多詐騙是經過臉書的尤其是投資詐騙假名人或是臉書這樣的詐騙那這個數目包括委員那個我們這樣雖然打詐裝潢還沒有完全實施但是臉書已經開始來配合所以我們現在一個月"},{"start":6062.324,"end":6063.464,"text":"那很多人是最無辜的啦"},{"start":6088.311,"end":6103.11,"text":"他的帳號被盜了那他發生一個事情喔比如說奈你的奈被盜了他沒有辦法回復喔就報警了以後啊警方沒有辦法奈公司沒有辦法把你原來的奈還給你了"},{"start":6104.158,"end":6129.739,"text":"也就是說使用者無辜的使用者他原來在上面在通訊軟體上面的聯絡人也好啦照片影片啦什麼聊天群組啦一些相關資訊全部都不見了他們要求你重新設一個帳號部長你覺得怎麼樣你知道這種狀況吧造成那個被害人啦他極度不方便我接到很多民眾這樣的反應但實際上啦不應該這樣子啦"},{"start":6134.728,"end":6162.523,"text":"來我看一看這是我們經濟部、事務發展部自己修正的即時通訊軟體服務定型化契約你在這個契約裡面有寫到如果是因為這種狀況就已經不便宜那麼像Nine這種公司他有責任他回復給原使用者你知不知道上面有這樣規定"},{"start":6164.707,"end":6188.119,"text":"我看你也不知道啦你也不知道啦消費者因中端設備因為更換或者被不法入侵導致帳號遭刪除的時候那麼你要檢據相關資料向企業經營者就是向LINE或者是Message就是臉書請求協助回覆帳號"},{"start":6189.821,"end":6211.36,"text":"他要把東西交給別人那現在沒有啦現在他們都不搞這一套啦臉書直接叫你LINE直接叫你申請一個新帳號所以很多被騙的人喔他丟掉了上面可能有很多他珍貴的東西啦全部都沒了那你這個定性外資要去訂價啊不是啊 完了你知道這個事情啦所以喔"},{"start":6214.605,"end":6228.633,"text":"你帳號被盜可能還沒造成任何損失比如說你報警那檢方幫你處理好了但是被騙者只有他會造成損失啦因為他的東西要不回來了他在軟體上面收的資料都沒了這檔部長你知道嗎"},{"start":6231.96,"end":6249.071,"text":"定期外企業是不是有?來,誰可以回答?這個定期外企業是數位產業署這邊訂定的,這個我們目前也會再跟那裡溝通,因為他常常說這個什麼溝通?你叫客戶走那裡溝通?他技術做得到啦,我也再跟你們參考遊戲軟體啦,玩遊戲很容易帳號被盜,但是遊戲公司會完整的還給你"},{"start":6255.782,"end":6281.05,"text":"你被騙者權力不會受損他會及時幫你擋下來只要有LINE這種或者是MATCH就是那個臉書的他全部叫你重來那你怎麼對為什麼遊戲軟體做得到遊戲公司做得到你通訊軟體做不到是不是你會被人家受傷這個不困難而且契約上很明顯記載保護消費者你怎麼做"},{"start":6285.95,"end":6302.619,"text":"這兩個單位要負責?我看上面寫數話部嘛?對,這是數話部督導的那是不是應該要要求?這個訂刑案契約我們再看看怎麼去處理你也要求,一定要要求叫客人走啊"},{"start":6303.598,"end":6323.907,"text":"對不對?你不要讓我們被害者造成無謂被害者造成再更進一步傷害啊那上面的影片照片啊、什麼通訊啊、通訊群組啦、聯絡人啊、那全部都沒了我現在見到很多人曾經、大家同時為了這個原因啊後來我去了解,我說奇怪了,那遊戲被盜、帳號被盜"},{"start":6326.906,"end":6354.802,"text":"那遊戲公司可以完整的回覆給你那為什麼你們的通訊軟體沒辦法後來我去查你們的那個定情話其實很明顯很明顯清楚寫到啊如果因為被詐騙導致就不法入侵啊那你這麼定表示說你也知道說他們做得到啊那這些公司這些通訊軟體公司做得到啊他們沒做啊甚至我 我覺得你們你們官員也不知道有這樣的一個規定啊好不好"},{"start":6355.731,"end":6356.991,"text":"接下來有請林佩祥委員發言"},{"start":6390.351,"end":6394.154,"text":"主席有請速發部部長黃部長委員好部長請問現在這個我現在要問的是時事題請問一下在過去10天之內政交所、桃園機場、聯電、緯創、台塑都被駭客所攻擊這件事您知道嗎知道請問一下這些的攻擊是從哪裡來的"},{"start":6417.392,"end":6418.332,"text":"請問為什麼會是俄國的駭客團體?"},{"start":6442.053,"end":6458.55,"text":"請問因為這件事情我覺得非常嚴重就是說理論上來講雖然說道高一尺魔高一丈這句話我想訴發部還有所有打詐的打詐國家隊最有感觸而說真的我聽到國家隊三個字就有點痘痘啊因為每次國家隊表示這邊做得很糟糕所以才需要國家隊"},{"start":6459.531,"end":6488.871,"text":"但是相對來講如果說現在我們是不是要一個防害國家隊因為最尷尬的地方是俄國、北韓這都是全世界駭客最強的國家那以前他們也不會針對我們請問為什麼現在會開始針對我們呢而且對不起讓我先講完一個攻擊出來對駭客來講每一次的攻擊都必須要有所回應都要有所回報不然的話對他們來講CP值不夠高駭客的其性他們是有事沒事不會主動去挑釁的"},{"start":6489.511,"end":6511.465,"text":"因為每一次他們的攻擊他們的殭屍網絡就被破壞每一次他們的攻擊他們的IP就會暴露每一次他們的攻擊一定要有效有目的的那這是很快的而我自己以前以前我自己也在IT上面知道過一些事情我有在IT的經驗那我也知道說我們的防護如果說他們真的要攻擊的話我們很難防得住"},{"start":6512.305,"end":6538.85,"text":"以一個企業體來講先不要講數法補那我想請問一下在目前來講請問為什麼俄國的駭客要做這種無謂的攻擊我可以防下來的攻擊報告委員那個我們有調查過其實俄國這次駭客攻擊不是只有針對台灣我們看到對美國對河南對一些國家都有攻擊所以這個攻擊應該是我們知道他對美國有政治因素我們知道對河南可能也有北約的政治因素那對台灣呢有沒有政治因素呢"},{"start":6539.25,"end":6555.602,"text":"還是因為是單純覺得駭客覺得很好玩所以俄國的駭客跑來攻擊台灣是嗎那個報告委員那個台灣就是一個攻擊的熱點就過去幾年來因為台灣就是那個大家也知道我們的攻擊數目可能是全球最高的所以幾乎所有的駭客有新的武器大家都拿台灣當試煉場"},{"start":6558.203,"end":6576.787,"text":"請問以抒發部因為之前沒有抒發部如果之前沒有一個部來去做數位發展的話我們對資安的要求在立法院我們對資安的要求不會這麼的嚴格但是現在包括桃園機場包括證交所包括聯電包括偽創包括台塑都under attack那請問一下我們的抒發部針對資安這件事情來講請問你們當這個公聚來的時候你們做了些什麼"},{"start":6585.009,"end":6600.758,"text":"我們當然是說我們有治安署大概就有一些治安通報嘛治安就是我們治安的防護就剛剛講有特別講說我們有所謂通報系統情治通報系統就設的這樣一個機制我們有事前、事中、事後事前就是集合我們確定治安大家都有達到一個水準"},{"start":6601.258,"end":6624.764,"text":"那事中就是在攻擊的時候我們所謂的各式各樣通報像SOC或是像是CERT他們會通報那我會跟所有的單位通報說我們看到新的攻擊請大家開始準備那事後我們會去分析這攻擊的太陽再去看怎麼樣去加強防護好那未來如果針對俄國再一次的攻擊你們會做些什麼事目前我們看到俄國這攻擊說DDoS的攻擊裡面其實並沒有造成造成嚴重的"},{"start":6625.644,"end":6654.865,"text":"這才是本席覺得對不起我不是說要看人希望人家受傷我不是要我們任何我們國家的企業有任何的損傷或者我們的所有的那個我們不管公司也要還是公部門也要的功能被癱瘓但是如果以我對泰克的瞭解他們這樣子很有第一個就是他們有更實際是不是有更深一層的含義在裡面是不是已經放了其他的其他的不同的病毒在裡面之類的第二個就是他們有表示他們要立威請問為什麼台灣要拿來被他們立威呢"},{"start":6655.285,"end":6658.027,"text":"請具體一點因為我們這個具體一點未來如果還有一樣的公期10月10號快到了未來如果還有一樣的公期的時候請問"},{"start":6682.947,"end":6711.562,"text":"速發部該怎麼樣幫助我們這些可能會被攻擊的單位我們已經提升治安的警戒所以目前就是已經全動員就是在目前那個就是我們已經提升這個警戒就是我們會加強這個monitor就是監控然後防護所以但是我跟委員講就是說我們要民間機構來配合有些CIA來配合我們有一個法正在立法院送立法院就是治安"},{"start":6712.242,"end":6728.434,"text":"謝謝部長不好意思我時間有限那我們現在回到打詐上面因為這時事題很重要這個都是不管是打詐也好都是有關這是治安的一部分嘛那我想請問一下說我剛剛看到這份打詐的專題報告講說我們把20億還給了受害人那請問部長知道我們今年"},{"start":6729.715,"end":6751.825,"text":"總共被騙的金額是多少億嗎?那個報告委員今年的那個數目是蠻多請問今年多少億?今年你不能只跟我們講說老實講你們這三份報告給國人看的時候他們會覺得說噢真的有那麼你真的為什麼我們還是覺得身邊的詐騙越來越多為什麼我是覺得說我們打詐打詐國家都打不到為什麼越打越詐"},{"start":6753.038,"end":6774.714,"text":"這才是為什麼我要問因為你這邊很明顯說跟我講說以返還受害人的所損害金額高達20億但是總共配了多少呢我在資料查到在資料上面查到光7月份我們受害就110億然後剛9月5號那一天9月4號還是9月5號9月4號那一天我們就差不多4億1000多萬"},{"start":6779.397,"end":6798.296,"text":"一天就4億1千多萬那你們現在很高興跟我們講我們還了20億給我們受害人老實講這樣會讓我們民眾覺得幸福嗎數字會說話數字不會騙人那我現在只想知道說到目前今天10月7號為止我們台灣到底有我們台灣到底已知的受詐騙的金額是多少"},{"start":6799.403,"end":6815.753,"text":"到今天為止,10月4號好了對,這個最後統計在警政署那邊,不過我跟委員大概多少,總共有個Ball Talk Number應該不只,因為7月份就110億,光7月份一整個月就110億,那整年大概多少"},{"start":6818.018,"end":6841.652,"text":"我必須要講就是說我們現在很多黑數出現是因為我們鼓勵就是說我們的確有加強宣導以後很多因為被詐騙的人不是今天才被詐騙他可能是半年前一年前被詐騙不好意思我順便加一句為什麼我想知道因為我們一直說打詐國家打詐國家隊打詐國家隊從打詐國家隊出來的時候對民眾的印象來講至少我所感覺到印象來講越打越詐越打詐騙越猖狂"},{"start":6842.773,"end":6861.782,"text":"甚至說我們越來越多年輕人跑去當詐騙集團他們不想當然我們知道這有社會因素有整個經濟的因素存在但是我們似乎我們如果在制度面我們不把握機會把他這個風氣把他擋下來的話那我們其實是沒我們這樣做說再怎麼樣花再多經費再怎麼樣做大內宣都不會有用的"},{"start":6862.162,"end":6886.318,"text":"甚至這樣講 資訊在未來是最重要的我想訴發部部長應該最知道資訊現在搞不好比現金還重要而如果以資訊來講我們的平台的管制其實是必須要再加強的因為平台的管制來講我剛剛看了你們整個訴發部的打詐成效跟防制我看完之後覺得我們是不是把我們的整個系統的設置跟我們法規的設置比較像美國"},{"start":6887.259,"end":6901.853,"text":"也就是說我們什麼都選美國的時候就讓他的使用者不停的去做他們的事情我們覺得平台都是無辜的平台我們不能平台不負責使用者的行為是不是我們現在在這個歐盟針對使用者"},{"start":6902.774,"end":6927.242,"text":"如果他們已經察覺到有所謂的違法甚至有害的行為他們是會予以是予以罰款的我們有這個機制嗎打詐專法會予以根本有這樣的罰款的機制沒錯而且那我想請問一下如果他們是不是現在還是要只有確定是打詐的廣告他們才會檢舉如果不是如果是只是說OK我今天如果用李寬哲、李賢昭偉的照片上面隨便貼了一個"},{"start":6929.182,"end":6953.332,"text":"粉絲專頁那我送出去之後如果沒有人說這是詐騙是不是就會過關我們會有幾個系統一個就是我們會我們自己有系統會去掃描會看到這樣的話我們會把他要求向臉書要求他下架我們有這樣一個機制我們從9月從8月20多快我記得以前跟我以前有講過24小時之內要下架24小時之內會臉書會配合下架那其他的頻道呢"},{"start":6953.832,"end":6956.054,"text":"我們有6個平台是我們納管這6個平台都要配合不然他就會被罰款"},{"start":6972.328,"end":6987.249,"text":"為什麼我會把這件事特技拿出來講這麼激動因為治安也好打詐也好跟我們息息相關越來越接近了而老實講數位發展部既然是個部我們對他就有更高的期待更更高的要求而且這是符合國人期待不然就當作就不要數位發展部"},{"start":6988.21,"end":6989.311,"text":"我們納管的數位經濟產業我們會好好的監督"},{"start":7019.079,"end":7029.965,"text":"好 謝謝林佩江委員我們接下來詢答待會到何新淳委員之後休息10分鐘有請李昆哲委員發言"},{"start":7038.626,"end":7060.771,"text":"謝謝昭緯 針對今天早上開會的這個議事的程序我真的是大開眼界 要求NCC能夠坐在座位上來做報告那如果NCC在座位上來做報告 那立委不就要躺著聽嗎投手本來就是要站在投手球 哪有說從休息室、從檸檬來投球的"},{"start":7063.679,"end":7087.772,"text":"這都是非常奇怪的一件事另外沒有讓恩琪琪的代理主委來做報告請主秘來報告我們可以去指定對方的投手是誰嗎人家先發投手這個我們不要我們要其他的投手這都是很奇怪有時候我們要修理別人但踐踏的是誰的尊嚴這個大家要好好的思考謝謝趙委請一下黃部長黃部長"},{"start":7094.755,"end":7111.221,"text":"部長這兩天就是10月5號某個知名網路的購物平台他其實遭到民眾質疑他的使用者的資料是不是被盜或者是駭客入侵導致他們的帳戶被盜用"},{"start":7112.562,"end":7137.242,"text":"那帳號內的儲值金啊被花用殆盡的這種狀況目前查到大概是有8個人啊他的受害者的這個金額已經超過百萬元那網路購物平台啊他們有去做了解跟澄清他們認為說他們沒有被駭客入侵是使用者的資料被盜用那就是所謂的這一種"},{"start":7140.52,"end":7156.252,"text":"帳號的填充供給就是我們所謂的狀酷供給那就是駭客收集這些使用者的名稱、密碼等等的這樣的一個訊息來使用自動化的技術嘗試各個網站進行登入"},{"start":7156.972,"end":7164.295,"text":"最後撞擊出正確的名稱跟密碼這個現代人很多都這樣都用同樣的一個帳號Gmail的帳號或是密碼都同樣的認為這樣比較好記那其實有這樣的狀況那"},{"start":7171.83,"end":7196.437,"text":"數位部了不了解這樣的狀況來完全了解在掌握中我請那個素材署的副署長來說明一下我們跟這家公司聯絡那剛剛就陳如委員剛剛講的他們就是駭客用鑽庫供給的方式那他們有把有儲值軍的先把他們先登出之後請他們用OTP再驗證一次目前是應該是他說相對沒有問題以上"},{"start":7198.157,"end":7219.858,"text":"臺灣啊 其實部長你知不知道最近有個Who's Call還有全球黃渣聯盟跟新加坡政府合作的一個亞洲詐騙調查報告有一個臺灣篇他們認為目前臺灣最大宗的詐騙手法就是各自的盜用那這個部分我們是希望能夠第一個"},{"start":7222.01,"end":7240.939,"text":"嚴厲協助業者來進行相關的資安的管理改善而如果說他們業者願意超前提高安全的這些層級的業者是否會有講注的措施來加強使用者的這一些個人資安的管理以及維護來說明一下"},{"start":7243.12,"end":7257.536,"text":"這個委員建議很好我們回去再延續一下不過我跟委員講就是因為這剛剛報告前面委員都提到說這個帳號被這個密碼被盜用或這種問題我會特別也這邊呼籲國人就是說密碼是"},{"start":7258.737,"end":7281.169,"text":"被盜是常常有所以密碼的選擇很重要一定要夠安全那當然也讓大家知道就是說現在有很多技術可以防止密碼被盜比如說像多因子認證一定要使用多因子認證就是說不是只有簡單的user ID password就進入一個系統而是你必須在經過第三個第二層的一個驗證像one time password或者是簡訊的通知"},{"start":7281.949,"end":7308.272,"text":"再進入系統,這樣會保護你的部長剛才提到是業者那公部門的部分我們要加強公部門的資安的管理措施來確保這些相關的保護層級能夠與時俱進來保障民眾的這個個資這個希望數位部要擔起這個責任另外我們看到數位產業的發展其實是非常的快速產業的發展其實也"},{"start":7309.173,"end":7321.786,"text":"有讓這些新型的犯罪形態多樣化而且產生這樣的一個對民眾權益的這個衝擊那他其實這些多樣的犯罪形態也包括詐騙"},{"start":7323.695,"end":7323.995,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7342.557,"end":7344.338,"text":"來造成這些小孩子一輩子永遠的傷害跟陰影"},{"start":7369.912,"end":7380.055,"text":"那其實這個件數非常多我看衛福部由統計而掃的這種新剝削的案件是逐年的增加2021年1848件2022年2271件2023年3346件部長你們有察覺到這個嚴重性嗎 來說明一下"},{"start":7391.658,"end":7408.328,"text":"那個這方面當然我們一直有在monitor啦當然我們有一個機制就是可以停止解析的一個機制就是說如果今天兒少問題如果是衛福部有送通知給我們對某些網站要停止解析限制流量我們都會處理"},{"start":7409.088,"end":7429.822,"text":"那過去事實上我們處理類似案件已經處理到6萬多件了也就是說我們停止解析像這種兒少或者是詐騙的網站已經有這個從這個不管是檢調警檢調單位或者是衛福部對這種案件的一些這個所謂的這個案例的處理我們有配合處理大概目前有處理6萬多件從去年到現在"},{"start":7430.562,"end":7444.587,"text":"但是增加還是逐年增加?這就是說我們完全就用機制、用技術來配合處理當然就是說這個的monitor還是在部長,我們要加強跟這個教育宣導"},{"start":7446.141,"end":7468.651,"text":"而且要強化業者還有衛福部以及數位部的多方的合作那新少年的這個群體他們不管是數位知識、風險評估或是安全的意識是普遍不足現在使用手機的小朋友年紀越來越小父母常常會把手機給小孩"},{"start":7470.298,"end":7494.294,"text":"這種小孩使用3C的產品也越來越普遍我們要針對性的加強教育跟宣導這個有做嗎 來說明一下我們在那個不同的管道包括像資訊樂還有一些這個所謂的公開的那個我們會去做這樣的宣導還是不足啦 這個部分還是不足啦有那麼多小朋友受騙啊我看到某個這個"},{"start":7496.455,"end":7502.705,"text":"知名的遊戲平台他就自行封鎖了291個這種詐騙的帳號那表示單單這個遊戲平台就有超過300名以上的"},{"start":7509.619,"end":7525.525,"text":"而少的受害者這一種是非常越來越嚴重了要加強宣導另外我們要針對社交模式的遊戲業者要建立檢舉的管道建立社群規範及公司內部的安全文化這個有做嗎來說明"},{"start":7526.405,"end":7542.91,"text":"我們跟那個幾個大平台像LINE或是像那個Facebook是有這樣的管道那他們也有自己的自律的機制所以如果是他們自己發現他們自己會下架那如果是我們發現我們會叫他下架所以這個這樣的管道是有當然就是還有需要更多的努力因為那個這種這個"},{"start":7545.831,"end":7549.152,"text":"現在有受害者這種影片外流的這種憂慮那衛福部有一個新影像的處理中心這個要加強業者以及衛福部以及跟數位部必須要加強合作"},{"start":7572.276,"end":7597.956,"text":"那這些外流影像可以轉化成數據的代碼衛福部的這個新影像處理中心轉化成代碼有它的獨特性就是所謂的數位指紋這種代碼數位指紋可以提供代碼給合作這些下架的業者而且能夠自動偵測預防這些影像的上傳這個有沒有做呢來處理一下瞭解一下說明一下"},{"start":7600.7,"end":7621.54,"text":"我們現在針對AI生成或Deepfake生成的我們會要求類似湖水運的那些標記所以以後大家可以辨識那這個是虛偽的這是AI的部分嘛那我說針對這些被性剝削的這些兒少他們相關的影像我們不讓他繼續的外流有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":7622.461,"end":7649.78,"text":"像這種數位的指紋這樣的一個數位的代碼會傳到各個業者請他們要加強來處理嗎這個我們會跟這樣的技術我們跟業者再來討論就是說事實上剛剛講這個代碼或是說有民眾利用比如說LINE這樣品牌傳這種東西的話就要跟LINE去配合這個我們再來目前是沒有目前會保護下一代保護澳大利亞是我們重要的責任這種"},{"start":7651.081,"end":7652.443,"text":"接下來有請何新淳委員發言"},{"start":7676.046,"end":7685.774,"text":"謝謝主席,那我們是不是先請內政部警政署,請副署長跟刑事警察局的副局長好,李副署長跟副局長等一下再請我們數位發展部好,黃部長一起好了"},{"start":7698.94,"end":7726.409,"text":"副處長還有副局長其實包括我們黃部長在這裡不管我們的打詐國家隊現在從修法到執法規的預告公告到未來的執行其實不管是1.0、1.5、2.0不管重點的是民眾要的是要一點就零零是什麼?要防詐而且要阻詐而且要破案"},{"start":7727.589,"end":7753.961,"text":"我接下來剛剛李崑哲委員有講到這個現在最多臺灣在發生上的這個所謂壯庫的攻擊那駭客的事那其實最近上個月我看今天的新聞就講上個月高鐵就是這樣子高鐵就是駭客入侵有500多名的會員的點數被盜那像我自己本人在颱風天的時候那幾天"},{"start":7755.842,"end":7778.539,"text":"聽說我的高鐵的這個點數的賬戶也被駭進來雖然我的點數沒有被盜用但是呢今天看到新聞說我們有抓到這個高鐵案已經破案了這個會員的點數被盜用這一件事情已經有了一個結果當然要先肯定但是我要講的是什麼高鐵我們可以快速的破案那其他的詐騙案呢"},{"start":7780.441,"end":7795.661,"text":"現在詐騙好像在我們民眾的生活當中剛剛很多委員都有提到欸連我自己啊收到高鐵跟我來的確認的電子E-mail我都還不確定說是真的假的連我自己都要先懷疑一下說我收到的訊息是真的假的"},{"start":7796.061,"end":7810.466,"text":"所以現在在資訊爆炸的今天很多民眾收到的訊息都不知道是真的假的那尤其你看颱風天這幾天更是這是你們內政部警政署給我們的打詐儀表板上面這個受理數328件財損數2億4千多萬"},{"start":7817.429,"end":7832.067,"text":"那都是第一個網路上來的詐騙手法前五名全部通通都跟我們的網路訊息跟我們的這個簡訊通通有關係那如果以縣市來比一比這是你們提供給我剛剛那一頁好不好剛剛那一頁謝謝"},{"start":7834.096,"end":7861.952,"text":"新北市第一名、桃園市第二名、臺中市第三名臺豐來、詐騙一樣、橫行下一頁那我們再來看喔,縣市比一比數字很嚇人這是照今年最新8月的一個資料那今年的8月份詐騙集團被查獲的第一名臺中市給臺中市警察局鼓鼓掌第一名"},{"start":7864.022,"end":7880.276,"text":"扣的不法得利也是臺中市第一名那我現在就要請教一下我們副署長就你的解讀這個是我們臺中市警察局的警察很會辦案還是這個詐騙集團把臺中當作大本營"},{"start":7882.216,"end":7909.651,"text":"我想每一個縣市因為網路的犯罪他應該是不限於地區的但是我們公布的打詐的一般表對沒有錯我們公布的打詐一表版最主要的就是要讓全民知道說目前詐欺犯罪的概況是什麼然後類型是什麼所以以目前詐欺犯罪的這個概況以你的解讀台中市是第一名"},{"start":7911.204,"end":7937.142,"text":"當然是發生的多這個破獲的就多了其實發生的多破獲的就多那我現在站在中央我要求警政署那是不是不分縣市那既然台中市第一名表示我們查獲的多那可能發生數就是多那可能詐騙集團也有可能把台中當作大本營那我們這個城市的"},{"start":7939.083,"end":7965.407,"text":"到底是要怎麼樣來解讀我覺得我身為台中市的市民我也是台中市的中央民意代表我對這個數字我是覺得一則以喜一則以憂啊副署長因為我們提供的那個發聲的數跟PO的數就是提供給委員是正確的嘛而且這是你們現在發布在官方的數字我相信黑數還更多"},{"start":7967.182,"end":7979.063,"text":"對不對因為我們現在那個刑事紀錄表都整合在一起了所以一發生報案就馬上在後台裡面就就陳述了副署長我只是希望包括我們副局長"},{"start":7980.953,"end":8008.455,"text":"既然呢你剛剛講的發生數多、查獲數多那這個我就把它認為是正向的第一個我們呢也積極在查緝第二個我剛剛說一則於喜一則於憂憂的是那發生數就相對的比較多那這個我們希望中央警政署是不是可以要求地方的警察局我們是不是可以再更加強查緝這個是沒有問題的我想我們打"},{"start":8008.715,"end":8030.781,"text":"主要讓我們台中市看起來好像是詐騙集團的基地一樣那以我們最近高檢署所發動三波的這個打詐的工作就是展現了一些成效出來是 所以我希望成效更好因為台中旺志興切我們希望治安可以更好詐騙可以更少"},{"start":8035.063,"end":8043.668,"text":"臺中好像變成是詐騙集團的一個基地或大本營這樣子的稱號這個絕對不是我們想要的所以要拜託警政署好不好接下來我現在請黃部長部長"},{"start":8046.79,"end":8064.078,"text":"剛剛那些詐騙其實很多人都知道手機訊息陌生來電詐騙好像在我們生活當中無所不在那透過這些網路的各平台那我自己的數字其實也都是警政署給我們的我相信部長你也應該都知道"},{"start":8064.778,"end":8085.73,"text":"那所以我才會說我們現在打詐不管是幾點零從之前的1.0到現在1.5到2.0那我們行政院卓院長宣示呢經費預算我們要從打詐的預算13億要增加到73億這些其實對民眾來講都是數字那我們真正能做的民眾希望的是"},{"start":8087.215,"end":8104.247,"text":"要根除要越來越少我生活當中我不要再發生有這個手機的訊號啦或者是網路平台的這個假帳號啦假廣告等等所以我現在就問黃部長我們釋法也通過了那我們現在能做的是什麼"},{"start":8106.57,"end":8128.828,"text":"報告委員這個剛剛講就是釋法通過之後我們現在訂制法之後會對我們管因為我們數發部管幾個平台包括Facebook、臉書或是Line或是Google或是TikTok那現在很多詐騙的確沒錯剛剛委員看到就是有列一個台灣期間兩億四千萬那一個其實那個裡面有兩億是投資詐騙"},{"start":8129.929,"end":8152.237,"text":"那投資詐騙裡面事實上絕大部分是經過像臉書方式來詐騙所以我們在臉書有在剛剛講不管是目前因為執法還沒通過所以我們是跟他喝咖啡不過喝咖啡已經看到效果就是說從我們一個月有八萬個所謂的投資詐騙的廣告下降到現在一個月大概是一萬四千個當然不是很理想"},{"start":8153.678,"end":8161.023,"text":"你剛剛說以前可能一個月有8萬多的投資廣告的一個禮書的廣告8萬個投資詐騙廣告到現在9月看到1萬4千個只有1萬4千個"},{"start":8167.461,"end":8192.489,"text":"一萬四千個也有一萬四千多無限的可能性被詐騙的民眾但是就是說我們希望打詐專法通過之後因為實名制的關係我們這些納管之後希望能夠降到很低當然最好是零部長我現在就要講民眾不管你的執法規有沒有公告民眾是希望這個詐騙現在進行式的詐騙的手法能夠呢透過政府有效的工具能夠遏止所以怎麼防"},{"start":8194.89,"end":8220.42,"text":"我們現在有一個叫網路詐騙通報查詢網現在在9月30號有這個就是Beta版有提供給民眾做測試民眾也可以用這個工具來查你所看到訊息是不是詐騙訊息那用這種方式來讓民眾能夠試詐跟防詐所以工具我們會精進那另外就是說我們在這個剛剛講就是跟平台業者的溝通跟下架速度會加速希望民眾"},{"start":8221.961,"end":8250.522,"text":"剛剛講講因為我們很多詐騙尤其剛很多金額高金額詐騙都是因為投資詐騙那投資詐騙我們這個是我們第一個要處理很多投資詐騙是從平台網路廣告平台進來沒有錯所以這個是我們納管的下架要迅速第二個要教導民眾如何試詐那這個要跟平台共同來合作對不對那這個未來呢我們不管這個執法規的公告與否這個現在進行是我們就是現在就要再主詐希望能夠防止嘛"},{"start":8251.443,"end":8264.133,"text":"那尤其呢假廣告假訊息可以攔截假帳號如何解決我覺得這個要變成是我們政府各機關要跟平台進一步的去假帳號如何杜絕"},{"start":8265.874,"end":8281.953,"text":"那在設立帳號的前端平台可以用什麼樣的有效工具可以攔截出身份有問題的或者是重複的或者是惡意的一些帳號這些我相信部長我們是有這個技術工具可以去"},{"start":8283.415,"end":8304.15,"text":"也有法規我們就剛才講就是說這個納管裡面要求的就是要實名制啊就登廣告跟投資廣告跟出錢做廣告的人他必須要實名制那用實名制的結果就會杜絕這個講假假假名稱的假人民的委員部長我必須要講說我們要快啊這個詐騙手法太多了剛剛有委員講嘛道高一尺磨高一丈嘛"},{"start":8304.81,"end":8330.202,"text":"那我們呢像刑事警察局165有一個全民詐騙網有告訴大家有什麼資料可是但是日新月異有些的詐騙的手法已經不是在我們這個名列的這些項目裡面所以你知道嗎現在臉書裡面租網站剛開學剛開學的這個之前啊看房付訂金訂金被騙"},{"start":8331.423,"end":8352.158,"text":"我們很多的年輕人學生就這樣被騙這是正在進行式而且呢是今年這幾年比較新的手法我用這個是來跟你講說詐騙的手法是越來越新而且不斷的在轉換那不斷的在轉換的情況之下我們如何從根源去把它阻斷我覺得這個是最重要的"},{"start":8352.438,"end":8352.899,"text":"好,我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8389.292,"end":8407.864,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8424.538,"end":8425.219,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8448.254,"end":8453.697,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8472.404,"end":8474.566,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8495.981,"end":8509.515,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8526.261,"end":8546.085,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8562.299,"end":8575.172,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8590.163,"end":8594.129,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8596.903,"end":8615.93,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8627.554,"end":8632.216,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8666.74,"end":8667.46,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8678.723,"end":8679.664,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8717.075,"end":8723.62,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8742.466,"end":8762.815,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8777.973,"end":8784.379,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8815.822,"end":8832.716,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8845.686,"end":8852.058,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8878.288,"end":8886.718,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8891.546,"end":8892.427,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8907.19,"end":8917.183,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8920.708,"end":8933.609,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8983.968,"end":8992.553,"text":"好謝謝請大家就座好我們會議繼續接下來有請陳樹葉召委發言"},{"start":9003.357,"end":9003.779,"text":"警政署副署長"},{"start":9024.282,"end":9038.381,"text":"副署長早安本委會今天是針對這個打詐成效跟防制做這個專題的報告那所以本席在這邊就先針對這個打詐的成效這個部分來瞭解"},{"start":9039.082,"end":9066.931,"text":"因為我們知道事實上現在在國內在基層民眾對於這個詐騙的這個氾濫真的是深惡痛絕那我們也看到我們就是警政署的一個統計的一個數字這個詐騙的這個數字真的是也一直在增加當中所以就是說如何有效的來防止這個詐騙真的非常的重要那我發現說我們在內政部警政署165全民防騙網"},{"start":9068.712,"end":9083.204,"text":"是這個網頁嗎我是從這網頁看到我們目前有一個新的這個就是資訊就是打詐以表板這樣子的一個資訊的揭露我想先請教一下副署長用意是什麼有什麼作用"},{"start":9084.126,"end":9106.405,"text":"謝謝委員我們警政署公布的打詐儀表版最主要就是說讓全民知道說每一天目前詐騙案件的件數還有損失的金額那我們透過這樣透明化就表示說我們希望用負責的態度來分析每一件發生的這個類型"},{"start":9108.406,"end":9124.491,"text":"還有地點、方式進而擬定相關的計畫來加以打擊詐欺犯罪這個是最主要我們的目的是,是你們的目的可是你覺得說這樣子的資訊揭露有用嗎?有發揮什麼作用嗎?"},{"start":9125.424,"end":9146.918,"text":"那當然啦,因為我們除了公布這個儀表板以外我們就是透過我們內政部主管的市詐的部分把這個推播給各警察機關當作素材希望能夠加強的宣導讓民眾知道說目前的詐騙犯罪的方式進而自己提高警戒"},{"start":9147.907,"end":9168.156,"text":"是,就是說就我來看啊,或者是說我覺得說一般民眾如果看到這樣子的一個資訊啊,我覺得一點就是都無感啊,我覺得沒有什麼意義啊。因為看到這麼多的詐騙的數字,我覺得說只是會讓民眾更加的覺得說我們政府打詐不利、防詐不利。"},{"start":9170.154,"end":9198.069,"text":"但是以我們從這個8月29號開始公布儀表版以來從原來的每一天600多件金額損失4億多元到現在為止到10月4號我現在手邊的資料10月4號現在是490幾件損失金額2億多元所以從原來的五六百件然後這個4億多元"},{"start":9199.97,"end":9227.44,"text":"我們現在以現在來看好像有下降的趨勢就是說從四五六百件到現在大概三四百件當然就是副署長在這邊講我們才知道可是你們的這個網頁的一個資訊的揭露這個部分卻沒有特別的去強調我覺得這就是非常可惜的地方應該你們要把因為我看了你們的這個整個網站的一個資訊裡面"},{"start":9228.94,"end":9241.927,"text":"裏面有各種分析的數據包括財損或者受理數字各個縣市的受理件數等等都有做一個統計跟分類其中有包括打詐成效的一個數據"},{"start":9243.626,"end":9263.993,"text":"我覺得這部分才是最重要的嘛你應該要讓民眾知道我們政府到底做了多少事情包括你在這邊這個成效數據裡面有提到查獲的集團有293件然後有多少人嗎2621人然後查扣不罰所得還有攬主的金額高達15億然後"},{"start":9266.474,"end":9266.994,"text":"我們這一部分在努力"},{"start":9288.886,"end":9295.566,"text":"是不是這部分要再加強一下我們請那個書法部黃部長一起上台那請副署長留著"},{"start":9298.393,"end":9320.11,"text":"就是其實在整個剛剛就是說警政署他們揭露的這個資訊裡面詐騙第一名就是假投資詐騙這個真的是這個件數最多而且損失金額也是最高的那我看最近就是我們警政署他們也做了一個表都是在加強宣導那事實上在地方我們也"},{"start":9320.35,"end":9320.67,"text":"警察同仁防詐宣導"},{"start":9335.495,"end":9350.387,"text":"我們警察同仁也是在提醒大家就是說這個投資詐騙的一個流程希望提醒民眾怎樣去防止這個就是被詐騙上當那本席在這邊舉一個很實際的一個例子就是我曾經受理過的一個投資詐騙的一個案例"},{"start":9353.729,"end":9376.981,"text":"那這個表真的就是呈現了這樣子的一個過程可是沒有真正去上當過的或者是一般人根本不知道這個流程到底有隱藏什麼樣的一個危機那我之前在大概今年3月初的時候就是我地方有一個選民他也是真的就是透過網路看到了這個謝金河的一個網頁就是說"},{"start":9377.561,"end":9377.681,"text":"投資理財的"},{"start":9397.597,"end":9397.837,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9413.962,"end":9428.331,"text":"訊息回覆說他已經有獲利了60多萬所以他照理他的賬戶就有160幾萬的這個就是金額那他也想試試看說他是不是真的這個真的就是一個投資的那個"},{"start":9429.548,"end":9449.09,"text":"李財公司所以他也跟他說他需要錢所以希望他會這個就是他的獲利40多萬給他那他真的這個對方也真的會了40多萬到他指定的郵局去了所以他也就讓他覺得說這個應該就是真的了可是後來這個教授就跟他說"},{"start":9450.692,"end":9474.526,"text":"要幫他圈購股票然後後來通知說他有買到了一家這個股票就是大概63張然後要600多萬然後要他再去就是投入這個錢然後他那時候人在國外他就覺得說他帳戶裡面後來他的獲利被告知說應該已經有達到2000萬左右了他就覺得說那以他帳戶的錢去付這個600多萬是夠的"},{"start":9477.168,"end":9489.999,"text":"可是對方一直跟他說不行一定要他拿現金去他才覺得說好像有一點有點好像是詐騙的那種感覺所以才來找我所以後來我們幫他釐清了之後這個確定就是一個詐騙的一個一個流程一個詐騙集團"},{"start":9494.483,"end":9509.461,"text":"所以我們覺得說但後面還有一個部分就是說他那時候一直對方催他要去付那個錢的時候他跟他說他沒那麼多現金然後他也跟他說他可以用不動產去抵押所以他也就拿了一塊地要去融資"},{"start":9510.742,"end":9530.729,"text":"那後來因為就是說投資的人跟那個土地的名字不同人所以對方說不行所以就這樣子他那個地還好就沒有去融資所以我要講的是說在這樣子一個流程裡面其實涉及的很多的一個環節就是第一個當然就是這個投資的網頁就是涉及到我們速發部"},{"start":9532.449,"end":9558.177,"text":"要怎樣去管理這個網路上非常氾濫的假名人投資的這個部分因為我平常在看滑手機的時候就會跳出很多的這些名人的這個投資的廣告包括謝金河包括我們的新的經濟部長剛上任就被冒名了也包括我們立委也有被冒名的所以我覺得說這部分先請教這個部長就是說我們有主動去"},{"start":9567.319,"end":9583.883,"text":"報告委員,我們的確這是一個大問題,像委員這張圖所講的那個百分之九十幾是來自Metal就是Facebook的廣告那假名是一個大宗所以我們520之後我們上任就針對這個有開始在積極處理包括跟Facebook我們喝了好幾次咖啡"},{"start":9584.423,"end":9612.977,"text":"那當然就是說現在我們有AI去掃描整個整個的網頁看到這種類似假名人我們就通告臉書下架那目前的成效當然還不是很完整就是說因為我們等到打詐狀況通過之後會有所謂的要求所謂KYC就是實名制啦這時候會把那個假名人廣告完全杜絕不過在這之前利用我們這樣的AI技術我們可以掃描目前已經從過去大概一個月4萬多個假名人廣告現在下降到不到1萬"},{"start":9613.757,"end":9629.88,"text":"但是還是有還是有但是他有很多變化但是我相信這個東西在我們在打詐裝法的打詐執法開始實施之後應該可以幾乎完全杜絕那當然這個這個是一個大問題我們希望從法規從技術面去完全解決"},{"start":9631.519,"end":9647.77,"text":"我剛舉的這個例子也符合我們警政署做出來的圖卡流程事實上就是這樣子一個模式所以在這樣一個過程裡面當然就涉及到假投資詐騙的網頁那有包括假投資公司的一個下架這是我們訴發部的"},{"start":9648.871,"end":9666.012,"text":"的一個業務,那包括就是說這個融資公司的部分就是可能就是涉及到金管會的一個業務,那因為時間關係可能今天沒有辦法做一個詳細的一個就是詢問,那我們也希望就是說在這樣子的過程裡面,事實上"},{"start":9666.673,"end":9694.295,"text":"投資這個詐騙或者是說其他類型的一個詐騙案我們是希望就是說各部會要緊密的合作那我們當然在這邊再次肯定這個警政署、警察同仁的用心那希望在這個各個環節裡面我們可以就是更加的密切的配合然後做得更好讓我們的詐騙案件能夠破獲的件數就是更多然後讓我們國人對我們打詐的成效有信心這樣"},{"start":9695.717,"end":9696.439,"text":"接下來有請油化委員發言"},{"start":9717.6,"end":9732.118,"text":"感謝張偉那先有請這個我們數位發展部部長黃部長以及行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心黃志明黃志明OK 謝謝"},{"start":9740.354,"end":9763.773,"text":"委員好那在這裡還是要感謝在這邊今天許多單位對於國內這個打詐的議題等同於是國安的議題在盡心盡力那在目前來講我們辦公室還其實有稍微看了一下這次的五個單位的一個報告那以及相關的資料我們剛剛在辦公室也討論了很久"},{"start":9764.574,"end":9789.816,"text":"那在目前來講13億的經費在明年度希望能夠提升到73億嘛等於是提高了大概是4.8倍那我們扣掉封面在這次等於就是幾乎快年底了這五個在立法院的報告從上次的1.5到3月的時候在立法院專案報告到現在大概差不多也過了7個月那也算是一個期末考"},{"start":9790.416,"end":9815.734,"text":"那在這次的5個的專題報告行政院的報告是1308字通傳會是4895字書發部3626字金管會3886字法務部3078字共16793字這樣子的部分如果以13億的預算下去除大家今天在立法院的一個期末報告每個字價值是77413塊每一個字"},{"start":9820.136,"end":9837.481,"text":"明年度提升預算每個字換算5份報告的成本每個字價值37萬在這裡提出的是錢要花在刀口上我們看到了許多提出的成效跟報告"},{"start":9838.801,"end":9857.952,"text":"當然跟民眾的期待還是有很大的落差啦所以還是期望說大家各單位各部會我們還是要持續的加油還讓這個打詐的這個績效還能夠更能夠有成果當然說字數跟報告的篇幅代表一切但是在目前來講大家看到許多的一個"},{"start":9858.712,"end":9878.093,"text":"打詐越打越多去年詐騙4萬件財損88億到今年的話甚至大幅的提高那在裡面有許多的部分我們都需要來做檢討那在這裡的話我想要先就教一下為什麼今天行政院打擊指揮中心的指揮官沒有來想請教一下子敏"},{"start":9879.454,"end":9893.464,"text":"感謝委員因為今天在排定的時候並沒有特別的指定成績那那個指揮官另外有其他的行程所以說我就先來如果有不周到的地方我們會立即轉達感謝委員"},{"start":9894.645,"end":9918.164,"text":"希望未來的話有關於打詐的議題這指揮關係一定要到當然我也肯定這個國師兄你的過去在偵察隊的這個對實務方面的這個經驗所以你才從不管是從我們看到不管是橫山分局長包括鳳林分局長到真六隊、真七隊還現在直接來擔綱如此重任"},{"start":9918.985,"end":9926.05,"text":"那我想問一下在目前行政院的這個打詐辦公室大概總共除了你之外有沒有副指揮官"},{"start":9927.524,"end":9956.004,"text":"跟委員報告目前整個那個設置條例是只有指揮官一名執行秘書一名但是我們各部會都有派駐相關的業務窗口進駐到打詐指揮中心那有沒有庫大其他還有多少新增的人力除了派駐是的目前我們也在研議有兩個部會因為有在實質上在施詐的面向是有需要的那指揮官也同時在跟院方的高層在討論要再增加新的人員"},{"start":9958.547,"end":9961.992,"text":"目前有需要的事會再多一到兩位會進來"},{"start":9973.868,"end":10002.546,"text":"因為誠如各位委員都持續在關心的因為打詐的議題確實是一個目前牽涉到的國安問題那我們也希望發揮到團體打戰的力量那未來再需要的話今年度確實編列的不足那都只有在業務費用那未來會視狀況做滾動式的彈性調整那個本席還是要指出就是當然是肯定大家每一位打詐同仁的努力"},{"start":10003.306,"end":10032.467,"text":"那但是今天如果說這個等同於國安議題的這個打詐的問題啊還在這個指揮中心指揮官如果在重要會議沒關係下一次的話邀請他一定要到那有沒有協同的副指揮官那以及說再增加一到兩名的人力這樣是否再整合這個相關的一些部會來講人力夠充足嗎派駐歸派駐因為今天這個指揮中心啊他的概念上他不是會診資料而已啊"},{"start":10032.887,"end":10059.718,"text":"他是要整合業務啊還要整合技術啊那如果說今天來講沒有增加更多的一個能力甚至專業的人才他就要來直接擔綱這個指揮中心的業務我坦白講這樣就單純就只是在會整個單位資料這樣是非常可惜那同樣的在指揮官從上一次的李憲明他是建築專業那帶到這次的馬世元那個副次長"},{"start":10060.498,"end":10089.192,"text":"他也是一個建築專業那本席在這裡還是要指出當然就是馬市長他過去來講這個指揮官一定也有他的經驗在可是今天在打詐如此重要的這種議題上面這個不是賴油油這個還是要以專業導向為主如果說今天是在警政或是在法務部檢察官等等或是相關通訊技術有專業的他包括像部長也是專業的大家在這個部分來去做整合"},{"start":10089.952,"end":10106.455,"text":"那我坦白講那這個大家相對不管朝野立委都比較能接受但是如果說只是做彙整的話我覺得話沒有辦法達到這個成效何況還要再把預算從13億提高到73億所以我覺得這個部分我覺得行政院必須要重新思考"},{"start":10107.276,"end":10134.062,"text":"那再來再來我們看到這個剛才有看到幾個就是通訊軟體不管是我們看到我們書發部其實有跟不管是Facebook、TikTok或是包括Line都來做這個相關的溝通或是喝咖啡那想請教一下部長那目前這幾個就是廣告平台哪一個配合就是數位部的績效最好速度最快"},{"start":10134.962,"end":10163.374,"text":"報告委員其實這幾家平台都有誠意要配合因為他們也都覺得詐騙是一個很嚴重的問題那速度最快的是哪一個?提了這6家的國防平台業者其實都有在配合這個速度我沒辦法講不過我也覺得就是說當然我們現在看到Facebook上的詐騙最多所以它下降的數目是最多因為目前我剛剛有講就是說在所謂有些是投資詐騙從過去一個月可以到8萬多個假的投資詐騙到現在大概4萬"},{"start":10164.794,"end":10165.635,"text":"廣告平台驗者必須以實名制登錄"},{"start":10180.586,"end":10207.429,"text":"我相信各種的這種網路上虛擬都必須要以實名為主那再來剛才有提到這個LINE的部分他們要傳票、搜索票才能夠提供這個進度儘不論目前有核定多少章、辦過多少案這一個概念啊今天家是自己買的找小偷了找警察把小偷趕走了就到說這個家變成不是自己的就變成是小偷的這就像LINE的帳號被暴用的帳號一樣"},{"start":10208.63,"end":10224.26,"text":"所以我覺得說數大部還是要積極溝通不僅是實名制還有包括這些被盜用帳號的人能夠歸黃帳號我覺得還是要有賴部長下一次溝通後能夠跟各界說明我這個回去再跟NINE去討論好 謝謝好 謝謝油耗委員接下來有請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":10247.387,"end":10250.031,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請這個數位部黃部長黃部長"},{"start":10259.076,"end":10276.287,"text":"好部長好部長我想今天當然主要大家還是非常關心我們這個詐騙議題包含部長來拜會的時候我也跟你提到現在這種網路上的這個詐騙的問題其實數位部應該是這個責任非常重大我們先看到目前嚴重的狀況當然警政署有上來一個打詐欺標板的數據"},{"start":10277.968,"end":10303.205,"text":"在這個8月份的打詐成效的數據部分財損137億查個不發所得只有查到4億所以它也有各縣市的這個財損的數字可以看到其實查個不發所得跟這個財損真的是不成比例雖然查個不發所得4億但是其實比7月還下降了2億多當然這個財損還增加了27億所以它的詐騙的數字是越來越高那如果從這個打詐數據來看的話"},{"start":10306.465,"end":10328.605,"text":"這個每一個月份光是一個月光是一天啊10月2號那一天我們看剛好整理這條是10月2號那一天10月2號一天的詐騙財損就高達2.44億一天而已就這麼多所以我想這個數字國人都覺得非常震驚這可能這個數字一出來的確讓大家覺得說這個詐騙問題的確非常嚴重那我想這個數位部責任非常非常重大"},{"start":10329.326,"end":10347.045,"text":"我們看到說在看歷年詐騙的財損金額這個數字我也是希望這個打詐國家隊這個行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心也要稍微跟我們說明一下18年的時候只有40億那每年這樣累積上來到2022年到70億那時候打詐國家隊成立到2023年的時候88.78億那是打詐專責辦公室成立那今年到目前為止"},{"start":10353.932,"end":10375.79,"text":"8月就剛提到137億7月110億6月102億所以第一個統計數字到底出了問題因為這都是來自於刑事局這個部分很奇怪以前一年幾十億那結果現在一個月就破百億所以我也不知道說到底今年到了年底統計的時候這個數字會長怎麼樣這個部分部長你清楚嗎"},{"start":10378.57,"end":10392.922,"text":"報告委員那個當然我是520以後才上任前面數字我不是很清楚不過有一件事情我有觀察到今天這個數字因為被詐騙不會說今天被詐騙今天就報案通常可能是半年前一年前開始就被詐騙"},{"start":10393.803,"end":10415.243,"text":"然後累積累積到現在現在是我們大肆宣傳所以有人開始警覺到說我過去的投資或過去交友是不是已經被詐騙才來報案所以這個是有delay的就是說我被詐騙可能是去年的事情但是今天因為政府在強力推動打詐所以大家才警覺到說我是不是已經被詐騙所以數值會增加是因為黑數跑出來"},{"start":10416.044,"end":10442.884,"text":"好部長如果照這個理論那其實那黑數還蠻可怕的以前一年不到100億結果現在一個月就破百億所以就是說我剛剛講就是說這個東西數字怎麼統計可能警政署比較清楚不過我覺得這是如果是報案報案的數目的話就是現在報案的人變多了那就是過去有很多被詐騙可能沒有報案現在就來報案所以這個數字的來源可能警政署可以回答不過我個人是這樣判斷就是說數字增加是好事因為黑數出來後大家可以"},{"start":10443.004,"end":10447.831,"text":"委員部長,部長上庭一下,我們請這個行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心的執密,我們黃執密上來一下問一下黃執密"},{"start":10459.623,"end":10478.911,"text":"指名想請教一下像這個警政署、刑事局每年這樣子統計的數字包含現在這個打詐儀表版統計出來的數字呈現出來的每個月現在比如說一百多億每個月這樣一百多、一百多、一百多億那這個數據因為你們是主責單位嘛你們是協調各部會嘛你們會提供背後的這個"},{"start":10480.211,"end":10481.291,"text":"感謝委員這麼深入的了解到這個議題行政院"},{"start":10496.397,"end":10521.398,"text":"打詐指揮中心都會定期召開打詐精進會議會將在165發生端所受理到的案件的發生趨勢做細項的分工並且會著重在高發還有新興的詐騙手法並且會同步將這些訊息會分享給打詐國家隊的相關部會讓大家共同來研擬對策以上說明"},{"start":10521.638,"end":10542.851,"text":"好 殖民謝謝所以你們會去瞭解背後到底被騙的金額背後是什麼成因嗎那我想當然佔比最重的可能還是我們數位部的部分好 部長 殖民謝謝我們繼續詢問部長那部長你明年本來有編列了所謂的打詐經費打擊詐欺經費這體面提到了有73億其中50億要作為網路科技運用精進計畫但是我想"},{"start":10544.972,"end":10553.73,"text":"打詐薪費逐年提升了那你明年又特別編列這個70幾億叫做打詐裡面提供的網路科技運用有50億部長這50億要做什麼事情?"},{"start":10554.531,"end":10557.612,"text":"網路科技運用經濟計畫的50都不全然數位不低就占3億而已那其他的"},{"start":10576.934,"end":10596.144,"text":"市區在什麼地方跟委員報告這個部分是因應通保法的修正那警政署在電信的網路流量記錄的保存就有編例的四五十一這一筆預算那主要是在這個區塊也是剛剛有多位委員特別關心的"},{"start":10596.784,"end":10619.815,"text":"對於一些網路的記錄我們沒有辦法在即時的回溯追查那這一些因為業者他有他實質上的存在必要所以要政府要編列相關的預算來做資料的留存以上補充好 謝謝那接下來一樣打詐的問題既然這個打詐經費有這樣子的編列預算那我們回到今年現在提到說打詐通報網的查詢"},{"start":10620.455,"end":10630.882,"text":"部長剛上來的時候你提到說8月要來上線那後來又發布新聞說這個8月底能夠上線那如果現在上網查詢所謂的這個打詐通報網"},{"start":10632.315,"end":10652.527,"text":"App是有啦這叫網路詐騙通報查詢網部長的確如果Google的話我可以找到App但是網站還沒有上線那現在已經10月都上線了今天上線了嗎9月30號上線網路欸對App有上線啊App有上線我知道"},{"start":10652.867,"end":10666.688,"text":"那個報告委員就是Beta版都已經上線了所以應該是都可以Access對 如果我現在各位也可以自己試用手機如果我現在搜尋這個打詐通報查詢網Google會呈現什麼東西"},{"start":10669.12,"end":10692.788,"text":"這個已經有網頁存在那其實如果委員要的話其實會有可以跟你講那個網址有說一般民眾我現在被騙了我要查詢上線了嗎有有那個網路你只要打那個網路詐騙網路詐騙通報查詢網會找得到真的我現在馬上找喔因為我剛剛質詢前還在找喔"},{"start":10694.262,"end":10710.407,"text":"網路、詐騙、通報查詢網是165啊然後再來是一個新聞,中央社的新聞啊我找不到這個網站捏"},{"start":10712.577,"end":10728.202,"text":"真的各位媒體朋友可以找我看現場大家拿手機大家都手機啊我如果真的是因為我今天我是一般民眾我知道這個消息然後我真的想通報第一個沒關係這個東西你們再找給我第二個我要講的是APP有了這值得肯定但是"},{"start":10729.142,"end":10742.548,"text":"App你怎麼樣我剛剛用了一下部長你可以使用看看這個網路詐騙通報查詢網的App我登錄之後我看到見面裡面我把所有的功能按完了我不知道我要怎麼通報啊我沒辦法通報啊"},{"start":10744.367,"end":10761.252,"text":"報告委員就是我剛才特別強調這個是所謂的Beta版本我們正式上線會在12月但這個是所謂測試版那當然就是這個測試版的目的就是聽聽民眾使用的意見我們會再做進一步的更精進如果我不能通報我就不會有意見啦我不知道我的意見是什麼啊"},{"start":10761.912,"end":10775.929,"text":"所以希望說盡快的第一個網頁你們既然是數位部理論上這是你們的網站你們在優化搜尋引擎的時候應該要比其他單位有更專業的做法才對今天我是個一般民眾"},{"start":10777.765,"end":10803.693,"text":"一般民眾不可能打電話到數位部問部長說請問一下網址多少當然我是委員我可以拿到但是一般民眾拿不到我今天最直觀的我就是上網搜尋那結果沒有我們會加強宣傳另外就是說還特別強調這個是Beta版本Beta版本的目的我們專題通常release會有Alpha、Beta這是Beta那Beta之後才會正式版那Beta的目的就是希望讓民眾實驗會測試之後如果有意見可以提供給數化部數化部會做進一步的精進讓它更好用"},{"start":10804.153,"end":10811.068,"text":"那部長你現在測試跟誰測試啊?對不起我想問一下時間到但是我想了解到底誰能夠測試因為第一個"},{"start":10812.555,"end":10839.952,"text":"這個當然IOS看不到下載次數但Android系統我看到下載達1000左右這是第一個它的APP下載次數不高所以第一我想了解你們也要去了解到底誰在測試那第二個一般民眾我今天如果就像你提到了我光一天可以騙這麼多億被騙的這些民眾看到這個新聞他上網搜尋知道說數位不要推打詐通報網結果我上網搜尋第一個我可能真的找不到網站那你們也提到說這次被他白那既然現在被騙的人他找不到網站"},{"start":10840.552,"end":10844.334,"text":"現在是有2000多個下載不過那個那個報告委員就說其實這個名稱叫做網路詐騙通報查詢法不是叫打就是說我們只負責網路的詐騙所以叫做網路詐騙通報查詢法"},{"start":10856.561,"end":10857.182,"text":"我實驗差不多部長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":10882.92,"end":10909.536,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員剛剛那個到底連到沒有啊 要輸入什麼打詐不行 一定要是網路詐騙的那麼嚴肅喔你那個隨便關鍵字 你們要設定啊對嘛 你們有 別人是不是預算 你們還排在很後面這是不對的齁待會來跟委員說明一下好 謝謝黃委員好 接下來有請蔡其昌委員發言"},{"start":10913.78,"end":10914.821,"text":"打擊詐欺指揮中心黃執行秘書黃執行秘書"},{"start":10943.301,"end":10955.554,"text":"今天還是就打詐的這個議題來就教於我們幾個相關的行政部門部長那個數位簽章法通過之後"},{"start":10956.735,"end":10976.046,"text":"在9月15號已經公告我們還有多少在上個會期已經通過我們除了9月15號已經公告這個一定規模之網路廣告平台計算基準之外我們要把電子簽章法落實到打詐上面"},{"start":10976.98,"end":11004.7,"text":"你覺得還要多久的時間?還有幾個執法還沒有通過?有6個執法那12月30號都會公布現在正在預告當中12月31號最慢12月30號就今年年底啦因為公告預告就到10月21號了所以所以一定可以達成這些通過那過了這些執法之後接下來我們對於這些平台業者"},{"start":11006.192,"end":11030.104,"text":"我們的要求就依照電子簽章我們所公布的母法執法來實施落實對不對對就是他要用這個技術來做實名制的確認好那這個通過之後到我們在實際市場上把民眾可以接觸到這些網路平台到到他我們可以用公權力來要求必須要電子簽章實名認證這個時間還要多久"},{"start":11034.379,"end":11061.454,"text":"執法公佈就是打詐專法的執法一公佈就開始實施等下執法一公佈之後我舉個例子齁如果我啊你一公佈執法之後我開始要申請因為我可能會下廣告在在Google啊在跟Meta的這個FB啊我會下廣告嘛下譬如說蔡其昌的政治宣傳假設那我下這個政治宣傳我要申請電子簽章嘛"},{"start":11062.438,"end":11066.192,"text":"我要去找一家公司申請電子簽章 對不對程序上是這樣子嗎"},{"start":11068.527,"end":11094.859,"text":"還有其他的管道跟方法包括OTP包括那個行動的那個對對對但是都要我們去申請我們辦公室去申請不然我要下廣告的人我要讓他Meta公司可能就要檢查我是不是本人嘛對不對阿這個你們都準備好了嘛就是說你們公佈完1月1號開始我就可以直接找上述的這些管道去申請"},{"start":11096.516,"end":11114.126,"text":"認證我就是蔡奇昌本人我們當然就會跟業者溝通就是說他們因為假設說是1月1號開始要實施他事先就要公告就是說1月1號開始他的廣告組就要先辦好這些程序才能登報所以你們在公告之前就會讓大家開始申請是嗎對當然"},{"start":11115.885,"end":11144.466,"text":"部長你現在懂我意思嗎?這個要先講清楚喔不要到時候1月1號到了我們又在交通委員會罵你們說你不是說1月1號開始就可以做了嗎?所以我的意思只是把程序把它問清楚應該是如此沒錯確定啦齁?好部長我看了一下齁剛剛那個黃建豪委員有問到那個網路詐騙通報查詢網我們辦公室有幾個助理很認真在檢舉"},{"start":11146.511,"end":11147.791,"text":"我發現一個很驚人的事實除非你們的資料有誤這個"},{"start":11177.816,"end":11187.442,"text":"從9月5號到10月4號也就是我們從9月4號往前推30天竟然99.94%的詐騙通通是在Meta系統部長這個有沒有誤?"},{"start":11193.952,"end":11212.986,"text":"這個跟我們的一般的了解差不多就剛剛講的這個詐騙的那個太陽很多是從這個平台進來的對我看了一下我覺得這一家公司就等於台灣詐騙的平台的溫床嘛換言之解決這家公司我們可以解決到99.9%的詐騙案子"},{"start":11217.838,"end":11228.568,"text":"是源頭啦,因為這個是源頭,當然他會比如說會幫你導入一些私人的當然啦,就是只要阻斷了他就沒有後面嘛,因為是源頭嘛"},{"start":11232.234,"end":11254.759,"text":"目前是這樣,不過詐騙集團也會變化沒關係沒關係,我現在不管他未來有什麼研發創新這個以後再說我只是說就現有30天統計資料裡面竟然一家公司Meta可以南瓜的99.9%幾乎源頭都來自於他部長這個恐怕不是喝咖啡的問題"},{"start":11257.444,"end":11280.102,"text":"老是找Meta來喝咖啡我們作為中華民國政府我們有公權力如果說這個來源是善我們很多的平台業者都要一一找來溝通那當然這個很複雜啦那看起來只有一家捏只有一家公司就佔99.94%通通發生在這一家公司"},{"start":11285.762,"end":11309.154,"text":"部長有沒有更強硬的方法譬如說這個乾脆可不可以視為這個他就是同夥啦就都是在你公司發生的嘛不然就是說那個詐騙我們民眾辛苦一輩子賺的血汗錢被騙走了這種公司要不要一併負責不然至少也幫忙賠個50%嘛部長有沒有什麼其他更積極的手法"},{"start":11314.909,"end":11342.801,"text":"不然在你電子簽章法實施之前啊我看這個統計數據啊那個紙密我看統計數據那個詐騙數沒有下來嘛還在持續增加嘛對不對那個我們接獲的報案數還在持續增加嘛所以可不可以採取一些其他的手段我對Meta公司我對他我跟他無仇無恨啊我只是對詐騙深惡痛絕所以呢我希望"},{"start":11343.936,"end":11358.321,"text":"我們可不可以有一些更積極的手段可以讓這些受害的人覺得我們政府有更好的方法、雷厲風險的手段可以來阻止在電子槍斑法實施之前的這些詐騙"},{"start":11360.587,"end":11386.065,"text":"報告委員就是剛剛委員講的沒錯在我們這一切依法形式在法打詐專法通過之前我們只能用道德勸說跟剛剛講的喝咖啡手段但是打詐專法通過之後我相信那個罰款是夠的因為他可以罰到1億元所以那個應該有嚇阻的效果不過剛剛委員講到就是說可能法還可以立得更進一步就是剛剛委員講的就是如果這個"},{"start":11387.406,"end":11413.318,"text":"因為這個某種平台的損失,是不是平台上也要負一些責任,這個可以考慮嗎?好,部長因為你都這樣,你就是一表人才,斯斯文文的,我都怕你火力不足,我看那個執密感覺比較強悍一點,是不是參考一下執密看有沒有什麼其他的方法,這九十九點夠,這是太離譜了,太離譜了,對不對?我看到這事我嚇一跳啊!"},{"start":11415.138,"end":11417.036,"text":"指名有沒有什麼方法給諸位建議一下"},{"start":11418.554,"end":11447.461,"text":"詐欺危害防制條例裡面就有律定了很嚴格的一個處罰的手段那第一階段是讓業者要落地然後接下來是要能夠在源頭做自主管理那如果都沒有的話因為目前以臉書的現況來講我們了解到說只要是在還沒有預告以前目前接獲到民眾通報的都有在24小時內他就有下架了那未來我們會做溯源的追查"},{"start":11448.583,"end":11450.55,"text":"好啦繼續加油啦因為這個我想"},{"start":11452.065,"end":11477.547,"text":"每一個委員都非常關心這個是朝野的公事沒有什麼妥協的空間所以部長你要加油那另外我想我們在打詐這麼長的時間我們這麼積極的一些就是我們有一些作為、宣導這個也會有後遺症部長你也知道嘛也會有後遺症比如說我舉一個例子我有一個朋友他問我"},{"start":11479.073,"end":11505.444,"text":"他說他接到一個號稱銀行員的電話打給他說你的帳號裡面有一筆款是匯錯的你現在齁把這一筆款匯到我指定的帳號我的朋友沒有理他如果是執密跟部長你們會去按照電話指示去匯款嗎你們兩個會嗎報告委員我連電話都不接你連電話都不接非常好來"},{"start":11508.121,"end":11535.996,"text":"跟委員報告如果說有接獲到異常的賬戶賄賂的話應該要先報案那確認這一筆錢的來源然後避免成為三方詐騙的另外一個加害人我覺得你們兩個也是回答得不錯啦就是這個很簡單明瞭的告訴大家詐騙的模式當中形態當中一個很清楚的樣態啦好那這個現實我說這個叫後遺症是什麼我這個朋友啊"},{"start":11536.576,"end":11554.869,"text":"他就是因為接到一個銀行員的電話告訴他說有一個人匯錯款到你的戶頭你現在把這個錢轉到哪裡去我朋友聽到他就直接把他掛了他認為這個就是詐騙我覺得我們的教育很成功但是不久之後他就接到那個法院的傳票說人家告他侵佔"},{"start":11557.332,"end":11582.114,"text":"道青站因為那個真的是匯錯款匯錯款那一個人他匯錯款他跟銀行說我要追討回來銀行幫你通知要嘛通知不到要嘛就是接到電話那個我朋友就直接把他掛掉那所以匯錯款的人他的錢拿不回來啊他就跟銀行說你可不可以給我他的資料我自己去找他要說他匯錯款銀行說不行這個資法不可以給他"},{"start":11583.206,"end":11602.993,"text":"所以會錯款這個人為了拿回他的錢怎麼辦他就跑到警察局去告他還不告民事喔他直接告他侵他侵占直接告侵占阿所以呢告完侵占之後我朋友在家裡做什麼都沒幹什麼事都沒做就忽然說他要出庭"},{"start":11605.993,"end":11633.784,"text":"我們宣導詐騙的後遺症這個我在總質詢也提出來那個金管會彭主委說他們要好好的去研議這個影響有多大老民就不講了第一個錢匯錯的那一個人要不回來趕著要急著要拿一筆錢拿不回來被匯錯款的人躺在家裡也中槍再來我們的警察機關要接受報案再來我們的檢察署"},{"start":11635.149,"end":11645.667,"text":"這個今天那個師長又來嘛對不對我看了一下你們的資料那個叫做假侵佔最後都沒有是那個假侵佔我會逼你喔20%"},{"start":11647.717,"end":11666.215,"text":"你看看一個案子這個都是我們要我很支持要打詐宣導反詐騙的那個後遺症所以這個要來解決不要讓民眾躺著也中槍警察負擔增加檢察官負擔也增加"},{"start":11667.984,"end":11683.27,"text":"所以這個法務部跟相關的部會我們一起來把這個事情做一個處理啦好不好經管會已經主導要來處理這個事情因為時間的關係啦今天就先問就跟大家問到這裡謝謝好好謝謝蔡常委員謝謝部長我們接下來請魯明哲委員"},{"start":11701.741,"end":11711.75,"text":"好 謝謝主席首先有請NCC翁伯中先生來列席下好 我們請NCC翁伯中委員列席"},{"start":11718.928,"end":11732.501,"text":"這個翁先生啊這個為什麼呢因為你今天不管是在院會在交通委員會啊在整個列席備詢的一個身份啊其實這個受到很多的一個關心啊"},{"start":11733.602,"end":11761.594,"text":"為什麼呢所以今天對我來說你目前的身份最多是翁前主委前主委這前主委的任期到7月31號截止但你前仗未清什麼後面借款又來了後面提了四個名單本來是前朝提的照現在已經復委了嘛到委員會就表示我們卓院長也認同這個名單也就是說你前仗未清後面又來了也就一次啊"},{"start":11762.094,"end":11784.046,"text":"要挑戰立法院通過的我們NCC組織法準備要去挑戰嘛不能延任你也延了後面不能連任第三次你也送進來了嘛這前後啊坦白講如果是打臉我魯明哲就算了打臉藍牌就算了但是NCC你們的法規是立法院通過的"},{"start":11785.186,"end":11809.902,"text":"這是整個立法院通過的是這個立法院這個機構所以我覺得第一個是立法院到底尊不尊重這是一個問題第二個 我的擔心就是你現在要做這個代理主委你到底適不適合你覺得你適不適合"},{"start":11813.735,"end":11823.083,"text":"報告委員我是按照組織法第4條那個行政院提名但是我也尊重那個立法院的審查權好"},{"start":11824.827,"end":11854.467,"text":"我真的覺得你很不適合啦一方面喔你前仗後仗真的不清不楚你很尷尬我覺得你是從基層出生的你不是什麼這個教授政治人物轉過來的我覺得齁這個晚節要保你一路來你專業取勝的你過去也很低調嘛那你現在被放在這個位置我個人真的覺得很尷尬對我來講你是前委員齁我覺得你不適合兩點的理由啦第一個是我看到你過去在"},{"start":11855.808,"end":11861.252,"text":"後面我來了解了基層公務人員出身這是好事長官的命令使命必達我專業取向那這個陳耀祥說什麼就算什麼"},{"start":11883.578,"end":11898.748,"text":"那這種你要接這個主委你覺得我們NCC還是不是一個獨立要公正不能有政黨色彩的一個機構你認為是不是不管你是不是代理主委啦你認為這個機構是怎麼樣是不是應該這個終止"},{"start":11902.33,"end":11929.082,"text":"報言我們應該獨立公正那有關於那個不同意見書或協同意見書我有寫過我有寫就是對於因為我的專長是在電信所以說電信的合併或者是頻譜的轉讓我都有寫協同意見書所以電視沒有啦電信有對是因為我的專長是在電信那頻譜的交易或者是電信公司之間的合併好我知道我知道"},{"start":11929.702,"end":11942.592,"text":"那我們最最最民眾關心爭議的部分那你還是遵照這個陳耀祥的一個指令嘛投下那一票所以我覺得你這個真的不太適合耶到底我們獨立公正吵了這麼久"},{"start":11943.939,"end":11969.841,"text":"那現在你來接到底是要銷規朝隨繼續延續我們陳主委陳前主委的政策我是受不了第二個我覺得你真的要趕快辭職的原因是你有辱這個獨立公正的機構媒體訪問你你說你這個代理主委你到底怎麼看有什麼委員有意見你其中有一句話讓我真的是很驚豔然後到驚嚇你說"},{"start":11972.063,"end":11998.485,"text":"我主要是配合行政院的命令來代理院長配合行政院你什麼叫獨立的機構你知道嗎什麼叫獨立的機構你獨立的機構你獨立思考你這個機構面臨行政院有錯的時候你要站出來去挑戰他總統有問題的時候你要堅定你的獨立公正的立場不受任何黨派來去來去這個管制可是我告訴你你會想我的信念就這樣我會說"},{"start":12000.106,"end":12024.811,"text":"不可能啊為什麼因為你的命懸一線要你幹不要你幹這個線過去在立法院多黨派的委員表決合一之下現在兩條線一個木偶拉在總統跟行政院手上你要告訴我我就配合行政院其實是總統的一個指令配合府院嘛哇好感人喔配合府院你以後我只有這個"},{"start":12025.811,"end":12048.337,"text":"做代理主委配合他以後所有NCG各項的需要獨立的我都不會配合他你騙誰啊你騙誰啊你現在我坦白講他把你剪掉再見了所以我是覺得在這種情況之下我希望你要知所進退啦因為我真的不認為你是真的主委啦那請回座接下來我們請這個"},{"start":12052.68,"end":12075.912,"text":"數位部 黃部長好 我們請黃部長警政署李副處長還有我們打詐中心的黃執銘也請黃那後面就稍微問快一點這個因為打詐我們上上一任也是在交通委員會還有很多的委員會大家打詐已經講了過去至少我聽到在立法院已經四年到第五年了"},{"start":12076.894,"end":12098.693,"text":"那我覺得我們小英總統到現在的我們賴總統都不斷的宣示不斷的透過組織版本也不斷的更新打詐1.0、1.5、2.0不斷的推陳出新我必須要說我在交通委員會讓我最感覺安心的打詐的那半天就是每一次打詐的專案報告"},{"start":12099.634,"end":12113.271,"text":"看到你們報告四評八穩歌功頌德不斷的改善讓我真的含淚但是一回去回到我們人間的時候發覺不是那麼回事耶越打越詐"},{"start":12115.661,"end":12131.047,"text":"110年到112年你們看這個數字嘛一年大概2萬多到3萬多的數字成長率不斷的增加就是到112年嘛因為你們今年可能有改變啊可能沒講清楚嘛但是一年2萬多3萬的一個件數啊"},{"start":12136.505,"end":12160.167,"text":"剛剛黃俊浩委員也說我們過去然後財損從110年到112年3年的產損大概51到88.751到81這是警政署在這邊你們的刑事局提供的一個數字截至我們去年在問的時候今年上半會議在問的時候還是88.7那就請教一下"},{"start":12161.724,"end":12179.16,"text":"前三年加起來218億前三年我們國人被詐騙的財損218億三年加起來結果呢我們今年右邊是我們一到八月這個被詐欺的概況我們現在七到八月總共加起來248億"},{"start":12182.343,"end":12200.635,"text":"這兩個月很輕鬆的很輕鬆的超越了過去三年218億那我們警隊主先說一下好不好這數字是你們的那就要請問一下我想這個副局長你先說因為你是關鍵證人怎麼說呢因為從今年1月的時候你就在"},{"start":12201.98,"end":12203.902,"text":"一到六月平均每個月8.7的財損怎麼會變到七月、八月"},{"start":12223.311,"end":12247.983,"text":"8.7億喔下一個月是100多億這個變化的巧妙在哪裡?跟你說一下是跟委員報告謝謝委員關心這個數據的問題喔那個一到六月這個統計的基準跟去年前年的基準都是一樣我們都是用刑案的紀錄表在做統計的這都是民眾包圍以後到後端的偵查的結果以後再去做呈報可是因為我們因為今年要推出這個打詐儀錶板要第一時間"},{"start":12249.043,"end":12270.058,"text":"讓民眾知道我們那個受理的狀況所以我們把這個統計的期程改變了就是只要民眾一來警察機關報案不管他報的是不是糾紛是不是還有需要查證我們一蓋就收納所以所有的金額我們都一蓋把它放進來所以才會有大幅增長的經濟部長你也辛苦了"},{"start":12271.806,"end":12290.928,"text":"但是我覺得有點鬼扯當然第一個至少打臉的剛剛黃部長沒有啦是因為去年有些人沒報案啦一聽到我們有打詐司法過了很激動的搶來報案不是這樣嘛是因為過去你是從哪裡是收案來統計數字還是由司法判決你說你跟他講的完全不一樣"},{"start":12291.869,"end":12320.465,"text":"那再來為什麼說這個有點有點鬼扯啊為什麼呢因為我過去一整年按理說你110年的數字會不斷的變動隨著司法的判決結案會不斷的成長111年也不斷的成長可是我告訴你你這個數字啊從我們去年報到今年數字都沒有變你是講說今天列管的我們法務部什麼事都沒有做整整的一兩年一個案都沒有結我告訴你"},{"start":12321.618,"end":12342.869,"text":"我是覺得齁我們要解決詐騙喔第一個政府的數字不要再詐騙了現在所有的你們所有的報告裡面你們有很多美化的文字齁或者有一些真真假假的藏在中間或者有一些報喜不報憂的那沒有辦法你們要這樣寫可是問題是數字台灣數字詐欺這個數字我們能看嗎我只覺得"},{"start":12350.447,"end":12374.885,"text":"這個有很政治性欸很政治性啊在我的看法哇塞哇賴清德總統一上任真的完全不注重詐騙才上任還沒占五二零上任之後七月增加十倍過去八點七變成一百一十億財損哎呦賴政府不行啊感覺是你們是在打臉新潮嗎還是"},{"start":12377.455,"end":12391.034,"text":"還是在打臉救的沒有我們現在是公開透明一清二楚是過去有一個人一直藏一直藏藏不住我們才拿出來到底哪個啊你們回去真的好好去想想最後最後我要拜託黃部長"},{"start":12395.646,"end":12417.525,"text":"好 拜託你齁因為我們也發覺不光是打詐事法在過去我們不斷的去加嚴打詐不管希望他受到的我們就是不管是偵辦的快速甚至後面的一個後果不斷的增加但是我們看到112年最新的一樣警政署的統計表"},{"start":12419.767,"end":12446.585,"text":"這個我不覺得不有趣啊 一點都不有趣我覺得很擔心嫌疑犯的部分比110年相對來講0到17歲112年比110年喔 你們的表格 唉呦增加了31.53 那個三分 超過差不多三分之一啊就說 我不太理解 是不是因為我們的 可能犯罪的成本越來越高"},{"start":12447.225,"end":12472.583,"text":"我們乾脆找一些18歲以下的年輕人去弄是不是這樣然後我也看到警政署也做了很多的校園去宣導他到底有沒有效果你們每一年都做蠻多的會不會你要宣導的人他早就翹課了他早就是失聯的學生了你再怎麼宣導他也不會來我不知道什麼原因但是如果這個數據是正確的我覺得這個黃部長你有什麼想法嗎"},{"start":12473.635,"end":12489.297,"text":"對於降德的如果嫌疑犯年輕化的趨勢把我們7月通過的打詐釋法對於成人的犯抓到會更嚴跑不掉會不會這個趨勢更增加然後要怎麼辦你有什麼想法"},{"start":12492.742,"end":12508.774,"text":"報告委員這個青少年增基增這個我覺得這個基本上一個就是我們在在教育上真的要好好的加強因為這個實在是不應該發生的事情那當然現在因為這個將來是希望從源頭就斷了就是說希望"},{"start":12511.556,"end":12528.517,"text":"不管怎樣讓剛剛講就從這個網路的因為年輕人很多會利用網路希望說在網路上能夠多一些宣傳多一些這個不管是嚇阻的效果讓年輕人知道說你從事詐欺將來還是要還是一個可能還是會受嚴重的"},{"start":12528.837,"end":12546.435,"text":"好 回去再想一想齁因為這個連教育部都有關係想一想 想一想可能是忠作孫但不行喔搞不好不是他們喔他們到底在哪裡到底發生什麼事或者為什麼零到十七歲會增加你們去想想要怎麼樣去防制新的"},{"start":12547.116,"end":12547.957,"text":"目前是馬事源指揮官"},{"start":12571.171,"end":12593.786,"text":"好,那你回去跟他講一下好不好應該是對症下藥不要每一年的每一天費用甚至相關的防治費用都投在相同的一個地方要分散這是我個人的建議謝謝好,謝謝倫敏哲委員謝謝所有被選的官員好,接下來我們請邱若驊委員"},{"start":12613.083,"end":12617.009,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請翁代理主委翁代理主委好"},{"start":12625.951,"end":12639.626,"text":"主委,詐騙案件還是不斷發生,詐騙集團可以說是無孔不入,利用臉書、LINE、電話、簡訊等工具進行詐騙,導致我們國人民眾損失慘重,那詐騙原來成為國人的惡夢還有陰影。根據法務部資料統計,臺灣的電信詐騙,電信詐騙從108年的3萬4千多件,"},{"start":12648.675,"end":12665.472,"text":"一百一十二年直接暴增到二十二萬九千多件答福這個增幅達到了百分之五百五十七點三十一百分之五百五十七點三十一那今年一到八月那個案件數也來到了十一萬五千多件那代理主委您說您的專長是電信嗎"},{"start":12667.915,"end":12691.276,"text":"那就叫您幾個問題就本期了解去年2月桃園地檢署查獲了不肖的第二類電信業者與詐騙集團合作共發出1193萬封詐騙簡訊甚至還跟中華電信合作的第二類業者將民眾的個資外洩給詐騙集團由此我們可以知道第二類電信業者已經成為了電信詐騙主要的破口之一"},{"start":12691.776,"end":12718.527,"text":"那面對問題,NCC在今年4月發布電信事業用戶號碼使用的管理辦法那第二類電信業者的監管推給合作的第一類電信業者隨後在6月發布的電信事業受理申辦電信服務風險管理機制之一一樣規定合作第一類業者監管第二類電信業者那主委這樣子要求第一類電信業者來管理第二類電信業者請問翁代主委這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":12719.827,"end":12743.542,"text":"報告委員我先講一下因為我們對MVMO我們在那個113年4月26號的電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法已經有要求你要做這種用戶號碼批發轉售的要來登記不是就是直接我們會針對那個MVMO不是經過透過MMO去管MVMO"},{"start":12744.824,"end":12768.323,"text":"第一類電信業者沒有公權力的情況下你認為第二類業者他們會來配合嗎跟委員報告那個MVMO現在是他已經要來登記了假使來登現在要經營MVMO的就是號碼批發傳售的他一定要來登記我們區間裡就直接去管他不會再透過不會透過那個MMO"},{"start":12769.802,"end":12790.494,"text":"那黃建豪委員還有鍾嘉斌委員他們都有分別針對第二類電信業者納管部分提出電信管理修正草案那主委您看過嗎我有看過那您認同嗎我支持現在這一種用我們現在用這種MVMO就是透過那個電信號碼是使用管理辦法來管理MVMO"},{"start":12791.374,"end":12808.98,"text":"法制上面更精進就是提就是像宗嘉斌委員他們的提案就是把那個第二類電信再做列管再做列管那本席認為第二類業者應該由主管機關來監管對沒有錯他來登記成為電信事業就是要管"},{"start":12810.816,"end":12812.197,"text":"主席有請我們速發部防部長"},{"start":12841.336,"end":12856.354,"text":"副院長好部長好就本席了解我們第三方支付虛擬貨幣已經成為詐騙集團的洗錢工具之一那第三方支付在國內最早可追溯到107年那110年的時候第三方支付就已經當年就有檢察官基層的檢察官要求說"},{"start":12857.575,"end":12878.763,"text":"希望我們相關的主管機關將第三方支付列為特許行業那之後訴發部在111年8月27號掛牌而第三方支付的主管機關就是訴發部那當年詐騙案件數已經突破了16萬件很可惜當時訴發部認為自己的業務只在於推動數位發展那不負責監管的習維最後造成詐騙橫行"},{"start":12880.143,"end":12880.943,"text":"數位經濟是我們納管的一個產業"},{"start":12905.869,"end":12929.611,"text":"希望接下來事務發布也會嚴格來執行我們會再監管他們那個尤其是剛剛講這個能量登錄就是說第三方支付他要提供這個服務必須通過我們的能量登錄包括資產檢核他通過才能夠提供這個服務那我們這個也跟金管會合作就是說他要申請到虛擬帳號必須要經過我們能量登錄才能夠去申請所以這方面的管理現在都在進行中"},{"start":12931.012,"end":12957.587,"text":"有很多委員都提到一夜市廣告那個偽冒名人的詐騙廣告在各大的網路平台都可以看到那近期這些詐騙集團也越來越囂張把他們的觸手都伸到了職棒圈用假帳號抹黑球員還有以利他們來詐騙那導致球團發出聲明要求球員近期不要跟球迷合照那速發部終於在10月10號的時候也推出了網路的詐騙APP通報那速發部強調如果公眾人物遭到"},{"start":12958.727,"end":12975.249,"text":"詐騙集團微報可以回報速發部那速發部會要求Facebook還有Line、Google、IG等社群平台要求這些這些廣告來下架那本席覺得速發部推出的APP應該是可以有效的來打擊詐騙只是太慢了"},{"start":12975.729,"end":13003.007,"text":"那非要問題那麼嚴重才提出解決的方案那在這邊本席也要跟部長分享一個小故事那去年的時候我的助理就向我們訴發部來提出就反映就是有一頁式的詐騙網站那當時訴發部的回應是要他去找警政署向警政署來反映真的非常的無言那本席希望訴發部接下來對執行防詐的相關政策可以積極來面對可以承諾本席嗎"},{"start":13003.827,"end":13026.634,"text":"那個報告委員沒錯我們現在就是剛剛講就是說有4個業者是為經濟的業者是我們積極在處理的一個就是剛剛講第三彎致富再來就是網路廣告平台商那這些廣告剛剛講假名的廣告通常是經過網路平台廣告平台商來做這個發布那在這裡面當然這裡面一個大宗就是Facebook"},{"start":13027.014,"end":13041.49,"text":"那所以我們有跟Facebook現在就是在做這方面的合作就是希望他能夠我們會有用我們的AI系統去掃描比如說Facebook的所有的網頁看到有詐騙的那個那個像這種假名的廣告我們會要求他下架"},{"start":13042.091,"end":13055.909,"text":"那目前我們看到這個效果當然就是詐騙這個最後當然希望是打詐的專法裡面通過之後我們可以用KYC就是使命制來杜絕這個問題但在這個之前我們現在是利用這種通報機制"},{"start":13057.731,"end":13083.257,"text":"看到以後就要求要下架目前大概到目前為止從8月23號到現在利用這樣的一個網路這個網路詐騙的通報系統我們他們已經下架大概5萬多筆的這個詐騙廣告所以是有效果但是要到最後效果還是要靠法規來要求實名制那才能完全杜絕這樣的一個假名人廣告的謝謝部長說明希望數法部可以再更積極出動一點我們會積極處理好謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":13094.329,"end":13102.705,"text":"好 謝謝邱若驊委員找回我的手機好 接下來有請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":13119.035,"end":13132.464,"text":"那麻煩幫我邀請我們的訴發部黃部長那我們行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心那還有我們警政署的李副署長警政署李副署長"},{"start":13136.673,"end":13164.705,"text":"三位長官我們這個防詐的部分有分很多階段那宣導的部分防詐宣導的部分我想也是我們各個單位非常著力在用心在做的對不對那其實最近我們Netflix上架了一部電影那其實評價非常的好大家都把它當作是一個防詐神片不曉得三位知不知道是哪部電影有沒有看過"},{"start":13167.611,"end":13187.134,"text":"報告委員我．連這件事情都不知道?我沒有時間看這個那這個可能跟我們業務有一點關係啦因為這個畢竟它跟防詐它當然是一部電影但是有些人說它是一個防詐宣導片因為它是對岸拍的那可能有些人會說欸這個可能有一個大外宣的一個成分在但"},{"start":13188.195,"end":13214.2,"text":"無論如何這部影片在我們年輕世代有在用網路串流媒體看影音的人許多人都看過這部電影那普遍也都認為這部電影對於防詐的一個宣導不論是被騙去國外當詐騙集團或者是說是當受害者的角度那都有很多深刻的一些描述那當然我認為唯一的"},{"start":13215.356,"end":13240.987,"text":"可能唯一的阻礙就是因為他是對岸派的所以說我覺得三位可以去看一下然後想一下因為其實大家評價都非常好我們可以試著多多宣傳一下那在這部電影中也有幾個面向我也想做一些討論那許多我們的詐騙雖然說都是可能防止財務被詐騙但是也有許多的民眾被詐騙之後"},{"start":13242.731,"end":13260.878,"text":"自殺是有很多這樣的情形所以我想請問一下我們的警政署警政署請問我們有沒有針對被詐騙人之後自殺而死亡的人數統計目前沒有這個資料有沒有辦法做出來這應該要有家屬來報案目前我們自殺應該都自殺的資料不會到警政署來嗎"},{"start":13269.881,"end":13270.622,"text":"主管會在哪邊會有這樣的資料?"},{"start":13281.732,"end":13285.793,"text":"我希望這些資料我們在無論是我們任何的一個防詐的一個單位"},{"start":13303.663,"end":13328.588,"text":"提供這個資訊出來讓我們的同仁知道我們在守護的不只是民眾的財產我們在守護的也會是民眾的生命有許多的生命就是因為被詐騙而選擇自己親身離開了好不好這部分可不可以就麻煩我們的警政署來跟我們的衛福部或者是看是哪個單位有這個資料然後跨機關通報就像我們的交通嘛交通每個月都會有這個A1人數的統計相信的詐騙一樣這個數字出來會讓大家更有警覺心"},{"start":13333.769,"end":13355.498,"text":"那另外這個過去有一段時間我們在機場都有做宣導那就是避免我們的國民想說去賺高薪的機會去國外然後反而被囚禁在國外當詐騙集團的一個禁錄那這部分我想確認一下我們金融組統計到目前為止我們有多少的國人目前還有這樣的狀況嗎?這樣的或者是說這樣的狀況有沒有趨緩?"},{"start":13363.922,"end":13387.978,"text":"一般來講我們被騙到國外去詐騙然後是其他的犯罪行為那基本上我們都是民眾報案了以後我們才有這個資料那如果說以我們現在掌握到的這個資料有受理這方面報案的有868件已經返國的有612人其他的還沒有回來"},{"start":13388.999,"end":13407.903,"text":"好所以目前大概依照我們現有統計資訊大概還有多大概200名左右的國人可能在國外是被強制限制人身有的人是被強制了有些可能是主動的可能都有在國外進行詐騙因為受理了以後報給這個"},{"start":13411.184,"end":13432.059,"text":"立即來偵辦那偵辦現在就是說有不管是他是被詐騙或是說去外面犯罪我們就是這個民眾報案以後我們就報給地檢署去指揮我們現在有跟任何一個國家有簽訂這個境外警方在境外執法打擊詐騙的相關簽約嗎?"},{"start":13435.27,"end":13450.702,"text":"我們是陸續有私底下跟各國有這樣的一個協定但是因為我們自己有16個駐外的駐點如果這方面的訊息除了是透過外交部我們自己的駐點會了解"},{"start":13451.483,"end":13452.124,"text":"黃部長留步,兩位先回座一下"},{"start":13466.328,"end":13486.476,"text":"部長我們最近前幾天上架了一個APP啦對不對APP的名稱我忘記我看一下你有下載嗎有網路通報詐騙網站通報查詢網嘛你有沒有下載你有沒有用過我自己有試用這個就是我試用的是Alpha版本那最近9月30要上架是Beta有沒有發現什麼問題"},{"start":13488.915,"end":13517.211,"text":"我知道你適用有沒有發現什麼問題我們適用啊就說當然我已經開始接到一些就講所謂Beta的意思就是說讓民間這個測試版我跟你講這個你們花多少錢啊預算幾千萬是那個我們這個計畫是看起來蠻簡單的一個APP啦也不用太難啦應該還好吧應該沒有多少錢吧因為他還有後面的那種接受通報這種這個那個客服的沒關係這個預算大概多少APP的開發預算"},{"start":13519.13,"end":13542.535,"text":"一千三百萬一千三百萬喔好啦如果連後勤什麼的那個沒關係啦這個跟其他部位比還是沒有很多啦但是這個介面還蠻簡單的啦那我就同仁我辦公室同仁就下載測試一下因為它也才四個主要頁面啦那在四個主要頁面裡面統計的這一個部分啦如果你有下載可以看一下我們統計部分有一個打詐樣派啦這個是下拉式的表單連點都點不出來"},{"start":13545.075,"end":13545.956,"text":"統計頁面打在讓他也點不出來嗎?"},{"start":13572.755,"end":13574.276,"text":"那這個想確認一下,因為這個通報應該是24小時,不分假日,所以我們確認一下這個都是24小時運作嗎?"},{"start":13592.912,"end":13611.006,"text":"對這是24小時就24小時接受通報那因為我們有些東西會通報金管會或其他單位那這些單位有辦法在假日做查證嗎我們有要求但是就是說現在還是在在運作在協調中所以目前比如說金管會金管會今天也有來嘛是不是金管會來那個邱副主委"},{"start":13619.608,"end":13627.794,"text":"是 如果說我們假日速發部有通報這個疑似詐騙的訊息給我們我們需要多少時間平日啦 平日需要多久 那假日有沒有辦法處理"},{"start":13628.71,"end":13653.67,"text":"根文報告目前我們工作的方式是1到5都有那假日部分還在規劃?謝謝好沒關係有在規劃那就因為剛上線啦好不好不能太苛責那就是詐騙是不分假日不分白天晚上當然人力的部分可能就是可能讓我們的同仁比較辛苦一點或是增聘人力但這個部分就是希望24小時全年無休那這個才有辦法迅速的打擊詐騙"},{"start":13654.631,"end":13657.773,"text":"網路、臉書、LINE這些平台的回應,我們都已經有通常的管道了嗎?對,我們跟他們喝過,人都很熟,通報過後他們都會迅速的回應"},{"start":13676.607,"end":13697.026,"text":"配合度都還好好那因為我們最近有大概瀏覽了一下啦那有些都是說可能確認為詐騙訊息那已通知比如說Facebook移除怎麼樣的那有些要點進去已經移除有些沒有移除但是我想最終的狀態我們可能還是要追蹤一下不是就送給臉書之後就沒事然後如果說我追蹤的話如果說他移除你們也會知道那可能最終訊息要對"},{"start":13698.587,"end":13713.057,"text":"交通顯示下而不是只有告知讓民眾以為只有告知而已好不好那以上那不好意思再給我一點時間我可不可以邀請這個法務部我們國司長好法務部那我們這個黃部長還有我們同仁就謝謝"},{"start":13720.894,"end":13743.773,"text":"委員好市長好不好意思請問一下這個詐欺是公訴罪嘛對不對對非告訴難論非告訴難論是公訴罪嘛那其實詐欺當然有區域詐欺的跟騙人的可能讓你以為我要講的就是網路遊戲啦在最近的時候公平交易委員會已經有訂定法令要求所有機率型的商品都必須要明訂機率嘛對不對"},{"start":13745.749,"end":13762.054,"text":"這件事情公平會已經立法了已經上路了所以比如說大家網路遊戲抽卡抽角色都會告訴你機率那你再去抽但是常常我們沒有辦法去驗證這樣子的一個機率到底是不是正確的那如果說有民眾來報案"},{"start":13763.994,"end":13780.368,"text":"因為機率這種東西講實在就算告訴你99%會中你還是有可能連抽10次都沒中嘛沒有人辦法說因為就是機率嘛還是有機會連續10次都沒中那假設有民眾跟我們報案這種機率型的網路遊戲有很可疑的異常的情況下"},{"start":13781.289,"end":13807.328,"text":"那我們司法單位有沒有辦法偵辦跟委員報告這個個案上如果有報案的話那檢察官就可能會拜託我們司法警察機關啟動偵查的機制來調查調查他是不是隱藏著一個詐欺行為那這個是個案來做判斷個案判斷那你們可能可以去找遊戲公司請他提供內部的可能資訊等等的"},{"start":13807.828,"end":13815.955,"text":"所以我們可以去告訴這些玩家網路遊戲的一些機率型的商品如果說他有標示不實的部分他還是可能涉及詐欺當然他是非告訴奶的當然我們民眾可以去報案"},{"start":13833.749,"end":13847.934,"text":"如果說報案的話我們檢察機關會受理會去調查一下有沒有蓄意詐欺的情形是會好那以上好就謝謝我們司長謝謝召委好謝謝廖謙祥委員好謝謝法務部好接下來有請陳雪生委員發言好謝謝主席謝謝召委是不是請一下書發部黃部長黃部長"},{"start":13871.065,"end":13885.757,"text":"現在打詐主管單位是訴發部嗎?打詐是跨部會的一個合作我們負責網路就是平台就是內政部、通常會、金融管理委員會、法務部各個部會成立的一個聯合小組"},{"start":13895.066,"end":13903.846,"text":"113年7月31日總統公布打造專法成立之前跟成立之後你們有什麼進展嗎?"},{"start":13905.474,"end":13932.91,"text":"打詐通過之後我們就要進行執法的修訂那執法的應該是在今年年底會提出來那執法就是讓我們在打詐上多一些工具啦這個工具比如說要求網路平台上要使名字像這樣的一個工具就可以讓我們可以要求他們要配合我們政府的打詐要進行一些工作包括比如說那個剛講使名字以外包括就如果是詐騙廣告被我們發現他要能夠在24小時之內下架"},{"start":13933.99,"end":13952.702,"text":"這個東西就是會在後面在這個專法通過之後執法通過之後我們開始會落實那10月底啊這個通常會代理主委大概任務結束嘛那新的委員還沒選出來那通常會的打詐工作還在持續嗎?"},{"start":13954.38,"end":13974.395,"text":"通常會的我來問部長通常會的我會問他我們負責是網路詐騙就是剛平台上那電話詐騙跟簡訊詐騙那還是在通常會好好好好那謝謝部長請回我是請主席請一下通常會主委好代理主委封代理主委主委我剛才問的問題"},{"start":13982.386,"end":13996.582,"text":"你的任務在10月30日結束那11月1日開始在新的委員還沒有選出以前,統一選我們還沒行使以前那你們以後的運作打詐的處理怎麼辦?"},{"start":13999.089,"end":14014.898,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們會裡面有一個打詐工作小組是由我們那個主任秘書在負責督導那我們會持續的去做就是有關於現在我們在建立那個165防詐的通報網"},{"start":14015.959,"end":14043.433,"text":"那也在做那個外勞卡的一個跟警政署跟移民署連結的一個通報網另外就是黑媒卡的處理這一部分我們都會持續盡力做因為那個我們黃主任秘書是召集人如果你沒有任務代理主委的話那是誰代理的這我不清楚我就是在這個任內做本分的事做本分的事"},{"start":14044.844,"end":14052.387,"text":"我們的國際的化物從去年到現在本來是5080萬到目前為止只剩下1237萬大概通話率減少了75%是打詐的問題嗎?打詐有成效還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":14061.782,"end":14074.477,"text":"報委這個就是重點因為在112年5月的時候真的每個月平均的國際的電話是5080萬但是到今年8月剩下1200多萬證明這個有75%的電話都是詐騙電話"},{"start":14082.919,"end":14105.247,"text":"75%的電話都是詐騙電話另外我也跟委員再補充加86的電話本來也有1600多萬通每個月到現在每個月只有40幾萬通那個也是其實那個大部分都是詐騙電話因為我們接獲民眾的檢舉齁大部分都是查的結果都是來自國外的電話"},{"start":14106.226,"end":14119.972,"text":"沒有錯那不知情的民眾常常就誤導了就上當了那你們通常會有沒有做一些宣傳的紙本作業有有一些偏遠地區他不見得看電視"},{"start":14122.099,"end":14149.617,"text":"我們不只就是說我們會去到那個各個那個就是社區那個社區中心去宣導這個齁那而且我們的語音警司喔打那個國際電話來還有一個語音警司一通是國際電話要設置不方便對有這樣的訊息好那我知道了王主委你是請回是不是請主席請行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心"},{"start":14150.933,"end":14153.134,"text":"黃執行秘書好不好,謝謝好,黃執行秘委員好黃執行秘現在有打詐新釋法是這裡面有詐欺犯罪危害防制條例刑事訴訟法通訊保障及監察法洗錢防制法是那"},{"start":14179.632,"end":14180.92,"text":"這裡面剛才我問了書發部的部長"},{"start":14183.55,"end":14212.195,"text":"是聯合指揮但是總是要有個執行單位是不是你們在執行?跟委員報告現在在8月27日行政院就將我們原來的打詐辦公室轉型成為了打詐指揮中心所以現在跨部會的協調還有在未來政策的擬定以及在執法的推動方面都是由打詐指揮中心統一來統整"},{"start":14212.935,"end":14241.617,"text":"因為有個頭嘛對不對?各方面的資料各部會的資料要收集來以後是送到你們中心是不是?政策面的推動跟由打詐指揮中心來辦理那技術面的話還是由各部會依照業務分工任務執掌來做出那這樣多頭馬車勒?不會,這個只會做好相關的協調因為事前統一比較重要啊那各部會收集的資料都會到你們打詐中心來是不是?是的會的喔好好好"},{"start":14242.489,"end":14270.6,"text":"那我了解了,是不是請內政部警政署李副署長好,李副署長好,副署長早我這邊要表揚一下我們連江縣的警察局局長是前幾個禮拜有一個選民黨料給我"},{"start":14272.398,"end":14296.426,"text":"他說直接要跟局長見面,局長在百忙之中接見了他接見他以後,就開始佈置,佈置由車手是在台灣已經被詐騙了差不多幾百萬,最後他大概要一兩百萬那麼局長就跟檢舉員講,你請他到馬祖來拿"},{"start":14297.93,"end":14324.03,"text":"後來警察局局長很認真布線在機場就把他逮捕,把車子逮捕而且也承認了像類似的詐騙手法很多但是我們執政的同仁尤其要注意在整個辦案的技巧、技術的執行面這些都非常的重要我特別表揚我們連江縣的警察局局長謝謝委員那麼"},{"start":14327.659,"end":14347.664,"text":"我們那邊也有很多被詐騙的案子,詐騙一億、兩億、三億都有他詐騙的方式就是去新加坡,比如說我是拿督、賭錢中心去賭、包銀的甚至他還找我一塊去穩贏不賠"},{"start":14350.265,"end":14354.136,"text":"我怎麼聽得下去不可能的事情,但是不管怎麼樣還是很多民眾受騙上當"},{"start":14358.536,"end":14386.544,"text":"所以我剛才才跟我們的NCC主委講你弄一些紙本的作業廣發到一些比較偏僻的鄉里給他們偏遠的縣市還是給民眾看他不會當垃圾丟掉一傳十,十傳百對不對我常常每天都有禮物我每天都有禮物請你要記得要去領你的禮物那個電話我連回都不敢回"},{"start":14387.364,"end":14409.162,"text":"我怕回了以後啊,電話會被他騙他騙那個國際電話,我不曉得怎麼騙,我是不知道,我不懂所以像這方面類似的詐騙手法都很多那麼警政署這邊當然嘛,你們警察都在你們手上執行國家的公權力這一點請你們多加油好不好好那謝謝我們副署長,謝謝主席好謝謝陳雪生委員"},{"start":14418.325,"end":14439.694,"text":"好接下來有請徐富奎委員發言謝謝主席我們有請警政署理副署長、法務部郭司長警政署這個理副署長法務部"},{"start":14451.659,"end":14480.402,"text":"副署長還有市長午安我想這陣子我們屏東有兩位年輕人他們分別到中國大陸跟緬甸之後失聯這個案子本席曾經透過我們相關的部會去關切瞭解但是都一直沒有掌握到這個人的安全的問題後來國台辦發了一個新聞說其中到中國大陸這位郭姓男子因為涉及參與詐騙集團被依法拘留"},{"start":14480.942,"end":14484.306,"text":"感謝立委我們警政署是看到媒體的報導然後就主動跟這個"},{"start":14502.495,"end":14515.085,"text":"路芳那邊聯繫然後在9月25號他們就傳過來說他可能涉及詐欺案件所以被安徽省公安逮捕"},{"start":14517.574,"end":14538.644,"text":"那我請教一下法務部那個司長那針對我們兩岸的一個司法合作跟人身保障的部分那到底我們有沒有什麼樣一個具體的一個作為跟一個保障國人安全的一個措施跟委員報告依照兩岸共打協議的第12條雙方同意即即使通報對方人員被限制人身自由"},{"start":14539.284,"end":14565.081,"text":"以及非病史、可疑非病史等等以及便利家屬的一個探視那針對這一個剛委員錘訊的那一個這個郭姓楠大學生我們在9月24號就以公函聯繫陸方那陸方在9月25號就如同副署長所講的陸方就已經有回應說這個郭楠已經受到人身自由限制的這一個通報"},{"start":14565.942,"end":14568.365,"text":"現在所謂的一個詐騙的一個廣告層出不窮就像我們在這個螢幕上看到的"},{"start":14585.982,"end":14589.768,"text":"那針對這樣子的一個打詐的一個打擊犯罪的一個作為警察局部分有沒有什麼樣一個強化的一個作為"},{"start":14605.11,"end":14634.11,"text":"目前就是說對於到國外去被騙到國外的這個這個民眾那我們當然就是說民眾來報案以後我們當然就是立案調查立案調查以後就是就是馬上查證來來追查查證偵辦那如果是相關的需要外交部的我們會通報希望民眾填報那個失聯的通報單請求外外交部來協助"},{"start":14635.21,"end":14664.029,"text":"這一點我想本市還是希望我們警政署要更積極的作為那我想結合相關的部會加強一個國內的一個求職的一個警示機制這個不要讓人家那邊還要找人回來都不會有錢有時候根本人都找不回來了這部分是不是警政署能夠有一個強化的一個書面報告給本市好不好好好謝謝那請回請示主席我們再請金管會的邱副主委好金管會邱副主委"},{"start":14674.039,"end":14696.531,"text":"副主委我想我們金融機構在防制詐騙上面當然目前採取很多的一個措施包括所謂的一個靈慧關懷還有一個網路銀行的一個風險控管但是現在被騙都是高齡或是經濟弱勢的一個族群那針對這樣的一個弱勢經濟弱勢的一個族群我們有沒有一個更細緻的一個保護措施"},{"start":14698.003,"end":14715.084,"text":"根本報告有關尤其是高齡或是比較弱勢的族群我們有特別在臨櫃關懷裡面有要求有一定金額的這個匯款或是提領要特別做臨櫃關懷所以這個部分有特別做這個臨櫃關懷上面的要求"},{"start":14716.586,"end":14744.644,"text":"這個這一點還是要請金管會要求我們這我們要比較稽薄的稽問兩句、稽關心一下才會防止有些老人家他不會講實話因為他有時候他就是被騙了這樣這心情就一定都沒有要告訴你實在的這我們都很擔心那針對這樣子一個詐騙集團層出不窮一個更新的手法尤其利用一個虛擬資產進行詐騙那我們現行的監控機制是不是足夠來防範"},{"start":14747.286,"end":14762.715,"text":"有關在這個銀行的各個營業的這個方式都是有要求要做到這個防制詐騙的相關的規管所以在這個事前的部分目前又有一些技術性的這個"},{"start":14764.736,"end":14780.255,"text":"相關的這個制度來事先做偵測在整個交易面尤其是有要求行員要特別注意都有協助客戶那網路的部分在加強身份驗證的部分也做了很多的要求"},{"start":14780.895,"end":14805.411,"text":"對,也許最近網路有價證據這個假廣告實在是嚇死人齁,這都給大家報名白的啦齁,然後講這剛剛我們那個陳雪森委員講的這個只賺不賠的部分齁,非常非常的多但是我們在網路平台上面會看到很多未經核實的一個廣告那針對這部分我們是不是有一個明確的審查機制來防止我們更多的鄉親受害"},{"start":14806.544,"end":14830.659,"text":"根文報告目前網路這個投資詐騙的部分整個在這個投信投顧法修法以後我們都是有要求必須是實名制而且網路平台有負責必須審查的這個責任所以在這樣子的一個法律通過以後我們在執行上面更有法據的基礎目前主動收報的目前為止已經收報5萬多件都有做相關的處理"},{"start":14832.079,"end":14839.585,"text":"那這部分還是我們要積極來處理防止我們更多相應偷害好謝謝那最後我們也請數位部黃部長好黃部長"},{"start":14845.799,"end":14872.077,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了那我想網路詐騙的部分我們也很多積極推出很多的一個防制措施包含我們最近網路詐騙一個通報查詢網的APP還有詐騙犯罪條例防制條例的一個立法加強所謂對國內外一個網路廣告平台的一個監管那針對這樣子的一個查詢系統跟警政署的165的全民"},{"start":14872.917,"end":14896.549,"text":"防騙網的部分我們如何來進行分工跟互補我們這一個165主要是說已經明確是詐騙或是已經被詐騙的時候去報案那我們這個主要是說在不確定尤其是在網路是針對網路訊息不確定的時候可以來查訊我現在看到的訊息是不是一個詐騙訊息所以這是還沒有被騙以前你可以來先查驗很明確的做處理對查證這樣"},{"start":14899.91,"end":14924.257,"text":"對那針對未落地的一個國際網路的廣告平台那如果說他們沒有如期指定一個法律代表政府我們有針對這樣的一個執法措施或是有相關的一個法律的一個標準如果這個在預計是在今年年底我們自發通過之後如果這個沒有配合做招募事他沒有法律代表在台灣的話他是會被罰款就是說他沒辦法做這樣的營業"},{"start":14924.977,"end":14925.477,"text":"接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":14958.998,"end":14961.024,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請黃雁南部長黃部長"},{"start":14968.629,"end":14991.562,"text":"委員好部長好部長詐騙是大家國人深惡痛絕我們對速發部非常高度期待就是因為現在我們看到很多的詐騙為什麼會那麼的猖獗就是他利用網路無遠弗屆的關係或者是說用這個通訊軟體來擴散那我們要的是源頭管理堵絕讓很多的狀況可以好好的嚇阻"},{"start":14992.222,"end":15008.326,"text":"我先提一下有沒有去盤點說現在到底比較常見的詐騙有哪一些樣態類型投資詐騙是最嚴重的然後當然再來就是那些那個假的帳單、繳費的啦假裝公部門的假訊息假訊息都是這個繳費的詐騙"},{"start":15013.487,"end":15014.468,"text":"部長,剛剛我們也提到是說"},{"start":15035.169,"end":15062.307,"text":"那麼多的詐騙其實最根究底就是這幾類那可是國人還問啊就是說為什麼基礎的網路防禦下架到目前為止還沒有辦法做很立即即時或是說現在我們打開真的都還是有而且現在不只是臉書、社群媒體YT、TikTok、IG其實連拍影片他都拍影片告訴你說你可以來做相關的詐騙有沒有看到這樣的狀況"},{"start":15063.408,"end":15086.336,"text":"對那個詐騙管道當然很多那我們剛剛也有一些數據顯示就是源頭裡面很多是跟這個比如說假名人、臉書的詐騙是相關所以剛剛講網路廣告平台上的管理如果這個在打詐裝法通過、執法通過之後我們會要求他進行實名制那用實名制的關係會杜絕這些假"},{"start":15087.676,"end":15116.569,"text":"假的廣告對過去到現在本席一而再再而三就強調就是說你現在很多的粉絲專業我們以臉書為例粉絲專業如果說你剛創立他沒有去加好友他不是一個真的有名的話其實他擴散不出去現在的觸及演算法是很低的所以他就要透過下廣告的方式才能夠短時間接觸到一般的民眾那廣告源頭就可以去管理嗎那現在廣告實名制到底我們能不能要求了"},{"start":15117.209,"end":15135.044,"text":"對 這個是我們的打詐的專法通過之後的這個已經通過了嘛對 那打詐司法就會要求網路廣告平台所以我們現在想要確認的地方是不管是一頁是詐騙不管是這個投資廣告名人假冒名人他即便是假冒洪孟愷假冒任何一個名人"},{"start":15136.42,"end":15152.795,"text":"如果說他沒有去投廣告他也擴散不出去嘛對不對那現在我們能不能跟這個不管是臉書的母公司還是說這個Google能夠已經有確認就廣告實名制了對我們那個已經告訴他們就是說我們打造狀況通過之後已經告訴他們"},{"start":15153.456,"end":15155.036,"text":"臉書、Google、相關社群媒體包括甚至我講是說還有TikTok、IG、YT"},{"start":15176.423,"end":15189.492,"text":"這一些其實也都是管道已經通知了那年底執法通過之後就能夠要求廣告實名制如果說不配合咧一案一罰還是可以累敘可以一案一罰最終可以罰到1億元情節惡劣嚴重就罰到1億元"},{"start":15202.041,"end":15222.569,"text":"罰款只是手段不是目的重點在於是我們要嚇阻不要讓這些平台變成是詐騙的管道跟溫床過去我們講說我們對於訴發部基於厚望認為訴發部在打詐的防範上面角色很關鍵但是過去的訴發部我必須實在話講都是認為說訴發部只是配角的角色"},{"start":15223.129,"end":15237.895,"text":"但是我們在交通委員會我們一直強調速發部不是配角的角色甚至他是源頭管理可以說是主角中的主角跟金管會金流跟這個相關NCC電信的這個管道"},{"start":15238.855,"end":15261.357,"text":"警政署第一線的員警同仁非常辛苦但我們不希望是說所有事情到時候都是壓到第一線同仁員警身上所以速發部能夠勇於承擔我給予肯定但我們更期待後續的一個作為那我另外再提到最近還有另外一個他可能不算詐騙但是遊走黑白之間可是非常嚴重假車牌"},{"start":15262.728,"end":15285.073,"text":"有沒有看到假車牌的廣告訊息我看到這樣的新聞有是那如果說這是一個違禁品假車牌其實某種程度上他是他不算詐騙啦你真的給錢他會做一個車可是我們不允許這樣的狀況嘛就如同我們不允許網路上賣毒品我們不允許網路上賣槍械的這種違禁品或是他就是"},{"start":15286.073,"end":15314.674,"text":"法令明文規定的非法用品那一樣假車牌過去這段時間非常猖獗甚至網路上你只要搜尋關鍵字本席明天會開一個記者會我想也有邀請相關不管是警政單位或是抒發單位來好好討論我們怎麼樣嚇阻因為本席發現這樣的一個狀況非常嚴重甚至你只要在網路上查關鍵字就可以搜尋得到他就叫你加LINE"},{"start":15315.339,"end":15341.552,"text":"然後告訴你說你來製作一比一他上面甚至還寫警語啊警作教學使用嚴禁非法用途你不覺得很諷刺嗎但他做出來的車牌而且價格其實人人負擔得起那如果說我們放任這樣的一個假車牌在車路面上啪啪走我只預期兩個點第一他有恃無恐他可能開比較快因為被拍到不是罰到他"},{"start":15343.1,"end":15366.858,"text":"第二,如果說真的發生了車禍、肇事逃逸他跑走你現場查這個車牌查不到人那是非常嚴重的犯罪問題部長,我想請教假車牌這種違禁品的廣告是不是一併也要跟這些社群平台來去做討論要求他們不能推播甚至這一些訊息都要下架假車牌的那個"},{"start":15369.057,"end":15384.583,"text":"陳副委員講的就要跟我們內管的這幾大平台去溝通另外還有電商這我們也跟所有的電商三大的電商工會請他們告訴他們的會員這個要嚴格控管假設另外我們其實自己也在掃"},{"start":15385.66,"end":15387.561,"text":"本席不要否定你們的努力,但是我們真的還是查得到"},{"start":15407.488,"end":15424.754,"text":"這樣子的狀況就代表是說他確實還有一些漏洞還是會被有心人士去利用所以我也提出來這個問題明天記者會我們還在就教但我更希望的是明天來的時候各單位要提出可以應對的辦法好不好謝謝好謝謝黃孟楷委員好接下來有請李坤城委員發言"},{"start":15444.573,"end":15445.319,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請黃部長"},{"start":15453.2,"end":15456.121,"text":"打詐專法的第29條第一項的規定他們要在10月31號之前以書面指定法律代表那請問一下"},{"start":15483.506,"end":15511.445,"text":"現在是10月初了那這6個平台已經有哪一些業者哪些平台已經完成這個法律代表的登記了我們請副署長這4大公司還有6個平台都有來拜訪我們來討論一些細節所以他們已經充分知道10月31要提拔法律代表不是 這早就應該知道了啦這個不用拜訪也知道了在看新聞就知道了打詐成法的規定就這麼清楚我是說這個有沒有來做登記了"},{"start":15512.677,"end":15513.337,"text":"打詐專法通過多久了啊?"},{"start":15538.599,"end":15540.2,"text":"有哪些業者已經完成廣告實名制的登記了?"},{"start":15567.349,"end":15595.325,"text":"那個廣告實名制是執法通過之後他們才要落實目前也還沒有所以目前沒有任何一個平台他們有去做這個實名制那個目前是沒有嚴格要求雖然他們內部已經開始有些自我管理機制但是配合我們政府的這個執法的實名制目前是年底因為我剛剛有提嘛是年底現在他們也沒有自律就是說這個就是先配合的要先推動實名制沒有"},{"start":15597.19,"end":15619.523,"text":"沒有嚴格要求但是我從我們剛剛講過我們跟世大這個業者都有喝咖啡嘛那事實上他們內部已經有些自律機制就是像有一些像Google啊這些公司他們已經內部有這樣的一個類似機制就是會要求做一些身份驗證對啦那就是說當然等到這個年底的時候才會確定都採實名字就對了才會完全落實對"},{"start":15620.896,"end":15621.496,"text":"那廣告是小時要移除嗎?"},{"start":15640.011,"end":15640.331,"text":"網路詐騙通報查詢網"},{"start":15655.765,"end":15678.728,"text":"我有去下載啦我有去下載我想說看到底效果怎麼樣那這一個現在已經正式是上線了嗎還是測試這是測試版、Beta版還是測試版喔對所以哪時候才會正式使用12月12月會所以這個報告委員這個Beta版的目的就是讓大家測試之後給我們feedback、給我們意見我們會再做精進跟修改"},{"start":15679.168,"end":15692.025,"text":"所以這個是測試版?這是測試版最後版本是哪時候?12月12月的中下旬會12月中下旬那所以上面那些訊息是真的還假的?真的"},{"start":15693.072,"end":15693.212,"text":"最後一點點時間齁"},{"start":15714.024,"end":15725.626,"text":"我看了一下 主要來源以Facebook跟IG為主 然後Google跟Line的數量偏少那TikTok沒有任何通報 這個是原因在哪裡"},{"start":15727.52,"end":15746.134,"text":"大部分的那個所謂投資詐騙廣告目前大部分都是還是經過像臉書假名人啊或者是假這個假沒有啊 Google跟LINE也很多啊Google跟LINE相對的就是很多都是那個詐騙的手法都是先從臉書引導你進入所謂的社群就像LINE"},{"start":15747.315,"end":15763.404,"text":"或是其他的像Google的那個沒關係啦因為現在是測試版啦那這個就是我有發現這個啦那不知道你們有沒有發現啦就是說你們自己去查一下那是因為臉書比較多的關係嗎還是怎麼樣那所以去查一下那這個就是說我也希望說這個"},{"start":15764.464,"end":15765.165,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝主委"},{"start":15785.001,"end":15805.075,"text":"好 謝謝李委員那因為現在時間已經快接近一點那我在這裡宣告一下如果有需要去上廁所的就不敬禮不敬禮去休息一下預估今天的會議大約還有一個小時好不好那我們把會議開完了這樣大家下午還可以去辦公接下來我們有請賴世保委員發言"},{"start":15813.054,"end":15827.857,"text":"謝謝主席 請各位先進有請速發部的黃部長還有NCC的黃部長翁代主委還有警官會的邱副主委還有邱副主委還有警政署的副處長還有李副處長"},{"start":15838.499,"end":15856.268,"text":"先請三位長官上來主要是各位看一個數字我們說明年要編70幾億要打詐結果越打詐騙越多這個去年度一整年從去年到去年6月到今年的5月總共詐騙的金額是102億"},{"start":15862.598,"end":15888.294,"text":"結果今年6月到8月3個月257億是去年整年度的2.5倍這個政府還不是普通的無人喔老百姓最關心的是什麼你隨便做民調現在老百姓最切身之痛的就是詐騙然後為什麼一開始請三個單位上來大家點名"},{"start":15889.909,"end":15890.069,"text":"委員好"},{"start":15918.482,"end":15926.529,"text":"李長官請問你因為你是第一線被詐騙之後大概能夠拿回來多少請問你報告委目前沒有最完美的統計數字有這數字啦怎麼沒有我查過了查貨大概一成啦"},{"start":15938.379,"end":15960.175,"text":"所以在這裡你同意吧?差不多一成嘛對不對?差不多一成啦!就是說假如你被騙了一千萬你大概最多拿回來一百萬左右一百萬左右!多久可以拿到?要經過整個司法的培訓對!那是多久?那是多久?那應該要看個案的平均!"},{"start":15962.318,"end":15989.166,"text":"目前沒有這方面的數據有啦!我都查過了!你又沒!什麼都沒!你今天來都沒!你低限的啊!憑這樣一年啦!一年起跳啦!對不對!對吧!這叔叔對吧!那後面的帥哥對不對!那應該要看司法這方面的資料這差不多一年啦!同意吧!點頭嘛齁!我這個資料都是跟你們對過好幾次的啦!"},{"start":15990.287,"end":16012.452,"text":"那就是警政署來證實我們大概一年左右能夠拿回來最多一成大家心裡會很痛我開了幾次的公聽會那個有人退休主將積蓄一千萬加一加一千兩千萬一下就被騙走了請問你副署長騙得最多的樣態是什麼"},{"start":16018.12,"end":16029.116,"text":"最多的樣態是什麼樣態是假投資假投資還有第二個是假網拍假投資假網拍這個是NCC管理事務部事務部說到這"},{"start":16032.766,"end":16049.096,"text":"因為這個我們這邊是就是網路如果經過網路廣告平台像Facebook這個我們就是源頭我們就會處理就你處理可是現在沒有法給你你也不敢有問題不敢把他移除啊你沒有移除啊對不對"},{"start":16050.617,"end":16065.948,"text":"我們現在有通報系統就是說如果確定這個廣告是假名的廣告我們通報向Facebook他會在要不要檢察官那邊同意你才能夠移除下架是不是你直接下架了對不對直接通報Facebook下架直接通報好那個翁主委啊"},{"start":16067.352,"end":16088.983,"text":"委員好你們這裡做什麼事我們的部分就是有關於電話那我在報告裡面已經詳述了從112年5月那時候的那個境外的詐騙電話是5080萬通到我們除做了那個境外電話的攔阻警示現在只剩下1230012300多通就表示說這個詐騙電話減少了75%這個是有數據的好那個邱副主委"},{"start":16098.82,"end":16106.221,"text":"跟我們報告金管會部分我們督導金融機構從他的靈櫃跟網路銀行相關這個加強關懷提問跟這個技術上的一個防阻另外就是配合各個部會大家一起來做一些宣導工作"},{"start":16124.005,"end":16151.414,"text":"尤其剛才委員提到的這個投資詐騙的部分在投信頭部法修正以後我們在整個主動收報的部分已經收報到5萬多家5萬多則的話我們就是依照規定他是詐騙的我們就是提到這個警政署裡面讓他去下架你這樣攔阻了多少錢有沒有算一下攔阻的部分攔阻了多少錢不匯出去有沒有"},{"start":16152.076,"end":16155.337,"text":"所以你要吹噓的就是因為你們有林桂關懷所以減少可能100億的損失是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":16177.758,"end":16178.358,"text":"警政單位也幫忙警察機關一起來做處理來攔阻謝謝"},{"start":16205.674,"end":16222.822,"text":"好不好,我們下次再問你,謝謝好,謝謝拜委員那也請邱副主委,我蠻好奇那百億統計表給我們交通委員會一下好不好各個銀行分類一下,看哪個銀行擋得比較多好,謝謝好,接下來有請陳廷飛委員陳廷飛陳廷飛委員不在再接下來有請鍾嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":16243.452,"end":16262.961,"text":"主席、在場委員先進、列席了正午經過這場官員會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請我們速發部黃部長黃部長還有通傳會的翁主任委員翁主委比較了解我們這個數據犯罪的不曉得是哪一位,待會再自己上來"},{"start":16264.281,"end":16286.578,"text":"我很快來講聲音又有限部長目前我們看到的創意司法報紙上說停止解析仍然可以看主要是因為他知道不是透過國內的四大電視台他用VPN的代理商就可以看那出發部也表示你們將會持續的積極協調提供業者ISP加入DNS、RPG的機制還會跟TWNIC來共同討論請問協調怎麼樣"},{"start":16290.322,"end":16300.021,"text":"有事要不要來協助一下報告委員那個就是因為有的這是書發部表示啊那怎麼是你們在有線電視喔因為他沒有加速DNSRPG那我是在問書發部長啊"},{"start":16302.432,"end":16328.717,"text":"這個報告委員 這個不好這樣寫的嘛對 那個是我們去協調那當然這裡面牽涉到電信業就是很好 電信業問題 下來我們看一下喔ISPR沒有加入DNS RPZ造成破口所以呢非三大電信業者呢他如果是提供網率追求服務的ISP呢他有的已經加入DNS RPZ了有加入採訪中心了 這個OK他沒有加入的機制怎麼辦這些沒有加入怎麼辦 我們看下一頁"},{"start":16330.066,"end":16342.018,"text":"我有發文去問過你們要求創意私房停止解析請衛務部喊請通傳會請主管網域的機關停止他這樣解析論壇照辦照辦了沒?NCC照辦了沒?"},{"start":16344.758,"end":16361.854,"text":"報言那個我們現在所有的有線電視業者有的都間接的透過電信業者來加入間接的透過就二類以前的二類嘛你們說是不是要你們在我的記者會上說將來會長期一個電信管理法的工作小組成立了沒有有成立了好我們現在開始問三個問題第一進入如何"},{"start":16364.753,"end":16367.896,"text":"目前在電信法規當中應該辦理電信業登記的ISPR如何管理?你們的草案當中怎麼管理?"},{"start":16384.34,"end":16389.383,"text":"其實現在網路詐騙他們怎麼來的?你看我現在讓你看一下當你看到一個網路上你要買一個什麼?購買鑽石,遊戲的鑽石他會停一個,不是三秒鐘,停一個空白"},{"start":16408.334,"end":16432.291,"text":"他就是在轉什麼轉到其他的因為呢這個空白頁面是全球的WHOIS查詢這個123的空白頁面就是沒有納管的ISP啦什麼意思我今天要買遊戲點數我以為我用信用卡我用這個電子支付我付給了對方這中間的過程最後拿到錢的不是你看到的那一個人好再往下下一頁"},{"start":16434.357,"end":16459.968,"text":"金流是透過衛納管的ISP的網頁移轉而且你購買了油氣點數之後油氣點數的移轉也不是透過ISP的頁面移轉是透過衛納管的所以衛納管的ISP它扮演了我們金流查詢它的足跡的斷點今天自由時報的頭版有一個什麼台灣高鐵的優惠點數被拿來怎樣倒賣"},{"start":16461.055,"end":16489.873,"text":"你知道這點數怎麼賣嗎?點數可以交易耶怎麼去交易怎麼去查?如果他這個交易的過程當中用ISP啊你就根本查不到所以接下來結論違法的金流再往上跳一下違法的金流他用遊戲點數透過未納管的ISP移轉我是犯罪集團我騙了一個人頭的受害者他去網路上要跟我交易遊戲點數透過未納管的這個ISP我就可以把點數拿到我手上"},{"start":16490.66,"end":16502.763,"text":"透過維納館的ISP不但可以洗錢也可以防止事後你追蹤我的交易的誤進有沒有人現場知道這個問題的嚴重性牛市長 是是不是這樣子"},{"start":16503.96,"end":16528.395,"text":"委員確實那我非常感謝委員提案針對ISP的業者去做處理因為這確實是一件非常嚴重的事情那也謝謝通常會我們會跟通常會一起來合作努力把ISP的部分能夠做處理那我相信如果委員能夠針對這部分委員已經提案針對這部分如果能夠落管的話我相信對網絡詐騙還有兒少的部分都會有非常大的幫助"},{"start":16528.855,"end":16543.326,"text":"黃部長請你要肯定一下牛司長我們在這個案子當中我們多次請教他也聯絡了我們的這個通傳會也了解目前法規上的不足現在需要的不是問題在哪裡也不是問題如何解決是要趕快解決、趕快修法"},{"start":16543.846,"end":16566.653,"text":"如何阻斷詐騙的債圖金流以及偵查洗錢或違法金流的交易?具有點數交易,包括使用者跟使用者之間,他們所通過的網路平台,要有沒有用洗錢防治法來納管?現在有一個洗錢防治法,所以只要可以用來洗錢或來用點數讓你無法追蹤的交易的都要納管,部長支持嗎?"},{"start":16569.534,"end":16581.375,"text":"所以請進入納管為在電信管理法當中規範應辦理電信事業登記的網際網路接取服務提供者就ISP沒有問題嗎因為剛剛NC主委已經說了他們已經修法了"},{"start":16583.436,"end":16608.029,"text":"第二,請評估將具使用者與使用者之間的點數交易的網路平台以洗錢防治法納管的可行性部長,這一點就是你們的事情了因為目前電子支付的金流是由你們來主張的未來到我們的洗錢防治法、到我們的打詐釋法當中這個部分都是由書發部來負責的請一個月內提出書面報告,可以嗎?好,謝謝"},{"start":16612.985,"end":16635.737,"text":"謝謝鍾委員接下來有請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席麻煩有請NCC的主秘NCC黃文哲主秘"},{"start":16644.714,"end":16668.326,"text":"委員好主秘好請你上來是因為我認為翁國忠是一個違法任命的代理主委我立場表達得很清楚了前兩天兩位民進黨政府提名任命的NCC委員說回首四年在NCC的任期看到的都是全力施展於追求非常了不起"},{"start":16669.557,"end":16697.066,"text":"政府還買單鬥弱腐敗跟政媒空氣然後部分委員可以完成業者跟業界交辦的任務你作為NCC的主祕 贊不贊成兩位前NCC委員跟NCC沉痛的控訴完全不贊成李立委員說現有的人嚴認沒有正當性政府的做法不僅無法對民意負責還有存在正當性的問題 贊不贊成"},{"start":16699.176,"end":16726.234,"text":"我贊成你通通都不贊成沒有關係你捍衛既有體制的決心在全體國人面前展露武藝非常的佩服來三立新聞台說我經營剪掉這條線最少7年休息來源200%信賴我非常的篤定結果三立這個是新聞"},{"start":16728.154,"end":16750.111,"text":"上帝新聞做完了以後北檢直接打臉說沒有他報導的來源根本不是來自檢調所謂200%的信心進行檢調7年從北檢的觀點是胡說八道那如果說從北檢的觀點是胡說八道的話NCC認不認同北檢所做的最後調查的結果"},{"start":16758.645,"end":16768.189,"text":"跟委員報告,這個案件因為已經有民眾在檢舉這個事情了,所以我們已經啟動我們的這些程序,目前我們已經請三例,我們就這一件沒有善盡查證責任這個事實,請他陳述意見所以你們要查多久?"},{"start":16778.321,"end":16797.99,"text":"我們上次 我就在記者會上面已經有委員 也有立委 也有記者問過那我們過去 要過去的程序的話我們會在 請問我 就回答我的問題嘛你上次記者會有記者問 我都尊重啊 是上次有記者問 跟我在這邊請教你這件事情有什麼關係啊所以要多久 兩個月那效率怎麼這麼差"},{"start":16799.23,"end":16819.702,"text":"人家北檢9月9號立案欸9月16號結果就出來了欸人家花7天就處理完欸北檢7天就調查出來了說那個記者胡說八道啊哇你的NCC要兩個月喔跟北檢比起來NCC效率是不是太差啊"},{"start":16822.076,"end":16841.942,"text":"報告委員我們NCC有他們既定的一個一定要遵守的程序所以你們遵守程序嘛對不對那北九有遵守程序嗎這個不是我能回答的OK好沒關係啦我們就繼續往下看嘛來檢驗一下我們NCC的效率2022年已經有人檢舉囉跟NCC檢舉喔"},{"start":16848.15,"end":16875.247,"text":"孫欣欣委員：那個時候的副主委翁伯忠洩密就翁伯忠發了一個聲明說來文附件的刑事真正性都尚待審酌如果連刑事真正性都無法確定就沒有具體事證什麼叫刑事真正性這個我相信那個主密你應該很清楚來這個來文附件的刑事真正性確認了沒有"},{"start":16878.13,"end":16902.076,"text":"這個是NCC要調查的事項啊來文附件的刑事真正性確認了沒有所謂的刑事真正性就是說至少要知道說這個人到底是誰發的然後怎麼回事啊不然刑事真正性這個對所以我在問你嘛這個不是NCC該調查的事項嗎所以我問你啊調查到現在刑事真正性跟實質真正性我不需要在這邊解釋給你聽吧"},{"start":16904.454,"end":16932.495,"text":"刑事真正性就是那個LINE是不是真的嘛還是有人批圖偽造變造的嘛這個叫刑事真正性嘛至於那個LINE裡面如果是刑事真正的沒有批圖沒有偽造變造那個LINE的內容那個LINE的內容裡面是不是有人胡說八道那個是實質真正性的問題嘛所以我現在問你啊2022年到現在也兩年多了嘛刑事真正性確認了沒有"},{"start":16934.175,"end":16936.096,"text":"請問我請我們政風主任來回答行事真正性確認了沒有來請"},{"start":16957.117,"end":16972.094,"text":"這個跟委員回報齁那這個全案就是移送到地檢署去那至於這個賴的真實行政行事真正性呢我們沒有特別去奇怪了連行事真正性都沒有調查喔"},{"start":16973.936,"end":17001.71,"text":"你們正中是在打假球喔?做事做得這麼slappy喔?還是因為調查的去副主委?不敢查?自己包庇自己人?跟委員報告這個有移送到地檢署全部的內容都移送到地檢署去調查所以我問你嘛!刑事真正性確認了沒有?有確認還是沒有確認?有這麼難嗎?這個跟地檢署調查的內容沒有關係啊!刑事真正性確認了沒有?請回答"},{"start":17005.562,"end":17017.255,"text":"確認了沒有?你政風就刑事的真正性有沒有確認?有這麼難回答喔?還是長官坐在這邊不敢答?所以確認了沒有?我在問A你答B喔請問你刑事真正性確認了沒有?"},{"start":17028.508,"end":17043.28,"text":"確認了沒有?在當時候沒有特別去訪談這個先生所以你們政風是現在處於一個過水的狀態?不會所以你們政風發揮的功能就是過水嗎?連形式真正性都沒有去確認喔?"},{"start":17044.727,"end":17061.289,"text":"跟委員報告其實行政調查它有一定的局限對嘛所以我問你形式真正性你請當事人來手機拿出來那不就知道是真的還假的嗎你連形式真正性都沒有確認那請問你們政風到底在幹嘛"},{"start":17062.21,"end":17074.85,"text":"其實這部分應該不會有什麼質疑那等一下喔 聽聽聽你說這部分沒有什麼質疑那不對喔因為有質疑的是歐柏宗阿歐柏宗連形式、真正性都在否認阿"},{"start":17076.681,"end":17102.759,"text":"他的聲明你沒看過他說他連刑事真正性都質疑啊那你怎麼會說沒有什麼問題所以我才說我們就全案移給地檢署去做更深論所以我就在問嘛你們政風的存在到底查了什麼東西嘛連刑事的真正性都沒有辦法去確認還是不敢確認還是我們現在政風扮演的角色就是有人投訴政風不查全案移到檢調那要政風幹嘛"},{"start":17105.12,"end":17128.415,"text":"那要政風幹嘛?連刑事還真正性都沒有去查喔?相關行政調查 政務室都有調查所以啊 你調查完了 請問刑事真正性有問題沒有問題?奇怪 你說行政調查 你們都有調查現在我還沒跟你扯實質真正性欸你連刑事真正性都沒辦法確認 然後你跟我說政風有調查請問查什麼啊?請問查什麼啊?"},{"start":17131.994,"end":17158.437,"text":"可以不可以跟大家說明一下因為我現在完全聽不懂啊政經有查但是形式真正性到現在還搞不清楚這個不是很奇怪的事嗎這個LINE是真的還假的有人批圖嗎這個圖是批的嗎當事人找來手機看一下都知道啦這個都是朋友傳給陳建平的截圖啊"},{"start":17160.308,"end":17180.237,"text":"這刑事真正性怎麼會有問題連當事人都沒有約法連刑事真正性都沒有確認那請問政經在查什麼嗎跟委員報告其實這個賴的截圖的內容我個人認為他不會可能對沒有這"},{"start":17181.561,"end":17205.574,"text":"我覺得他不好意思請他回答你要他代打我沒有阻止你這個截圖我們不認為可能是不認為是有這個說謊或是他們可能是在那時候你不認為說這個截圖有說謊代表是你確認這個刑事真正性是嗎"},{"start":17206.707,"end":17224.823,"text":"因為培偉跟陳建平之間的對話我不認為他們之間有什麼作家那所以我們沒辦法釐清他們兩個講話的真實性我們一樣一樣來嘛那不對啊但你們的副主委現在的代理主委是連形式的真正性都要爭執啊"},{"start":17226.224,"end":17249.389,"text":"我有說錯嗎政政室的立場就是移送地檢署調查對嘛所以我就說嘛我們沒辦法去辨別那你們地檢署到底你們政風到底在做在在做什麼嘛聯席室的真正性現在終於確認不認為有問題那奇怪囉NCC委員欸向業者通風報信欸這麼嚴重的事情欸"},{"start":17253.294,"end":17272.955,"text":"就有NCC搞了兩年喔搞了兩年啊搞到今天都還沒有給社會大眾一個清楚的交代而這個涉案的當事人啊正在違法的擔任啊代理主委這個就頗為傳給陳建平的截圖啊形式真正性我都去確認了啊"},{"start":17274.195,"end":17298.943,"text":"我問了本人啊說人家質疑你那個是P圖是假的啊他手機拿來給我看啊是真的啊是真的啊那問題就來了嘛那現在的NCC到底在幹嘛現在NCC到底在幹嘛2022年的事啊現在已經2024年了現在已經2024年了到2024年還是一團迷霧啊在NCC內部的陣風"},{"start":17304.474,"end":17325.724,"text":"查你們自己的長官查成這個樣子喔跟委員報告這個行政調查他一定有侷限性那至於這裏培偉跟陳建民之間的對外內容的真實性必須再由司法做更深入的調查勝鋒是已經進了行政調查的方式現在只有兩種可能嘛一個是培偉唬爛說謊啦"},{"start":17330.305,"end":17354.426,"text":"對不對?培偉唬爛說要給執照是蔡英文交付的任務培偉也唬爛說博中傳了很多訊息給他第一種可能是培偉從頭唬爛到尾嘛第二種可能是他講的都是真的嘛只是沒有人敢辦嘛那培偉到底是不是唬爛這件事情為什麼重要"},{"start":17356.701,"end":17384.774,"text":"你們針對於媒體大股東不用審視視覺性喔來請主秘這個就不關政風了在媒體大股東要不要審查視覺性要要嘛那關安健來了喔一個喔按照民進黨政府的說法在外面假傳中通指揮胡說八道的陪委適合當媒體的大股東嗎"},{"start":17386.631,"end":17411.471,"text":"這部分不在我們的審查範圍等一下先停一下剛剛你不是說媒體股東的資格性是NCC要處理的怎麼又不在你們審查的範圍因為你在談的是我在談的是他的經營資格的問題不是在談他個人人品的問題沒有沒有這個跟人品沒有關係喔企業經營者你在媒體大股東的資格性他的誠信不是你們審查的標準喔"},{"start":17412.56,"end":17422.539,"text":"真的不是嗎你要不要回想一下你自己2012年的時候的主張是什麼你要不要回想一下當了官換了位置就換了腦袋喔"},{"start":17425.202,"end":17451.015,"text":"不是嗎你現在在談的是說我在問的是啦第一個媒體大股東的事格性是不是NCC要審查的標的是不是是嘛第二個這個媒體的大股東他的誠信有沒有問題是不是NCC在審查有關於媒體負責人事格性的時候要斟酌的事項是我們會斟酌但是委員你剛才在所以我現在就要問嘛所以我現在就要問你們有斟酌嗎"},{"start":17452.176,"end":17470.827,"text":"你在談的是一些傳言的問題我怎麼去處理那個傳言先停一下 這不是傳言剛剛在後面的那一位他已經證實了這個刑事的真正性這個是陪委發出來的簡訊他說全案已經送地檢署調查單你奇怪了 你要把所有的東西要推給地檢署"},{"start":17472.348,"end":17490.481,"text":"媒體大股東的事格性是地檢要調查的事項嗎?不是對嘛 是你們NCC要處理的嘛那我現在就在質疑啊 有處理嗎?有處理嗎?這就是我的問題嘛我們會在審查的會去審酌這件事情現在我的質疑是 你們有審酌嗎?我們有審酌 對 那你審酌的結果"},{"start":17494.824,"end":17512.73,"text":"培韋發出來的簡訊只有兩個結果嘛一個他講的是真的他講的是真的翁博忠就有問題嘛一個他講的是假的他講的是假的那培韋這種信口開河的人還可以當媒體負責人喔不過培韋現在他只是股東並不是經營人奇怪了剛剛我問你的是大股東的適格性嗎"},{"start":17513.59,"end":17516.473,"text":"大股東是買股的問題大股東如果假設是經營人的話我們才會去依照我們的負責人的那個管理辦法去審查他的經營上的問題啊你剛才談的是誠信的問題誠信的問題跟股東這股東是沒有關聯的啊"},{"start":17531.765,"end":17560.605,"text":"剛剛我在說媒體大股東的事個性不是在講媒體負責人的事個性所有的問題在這裡全程錄音錄影全部都有記錄時間的關係啦我只講最後一句話從今天整個詢答的內容大家就可以清楚的了解為什麼這兩位NCC的前委員提出這個沉痛的控訴"},{"start":17565.56,"end":17590.75,"text":"好,謝謝,好委員。這個,這個政鋒啊,政鋒抱歉抱歉,我在那邊聽啊,因為我在等你們答案,等了兩年是這種答案啊。刑事真正性,不是回答司法的問題。司法有沒有人圖利,或者有沒有人幹什麼,是另外一回事。你要回答的是,你們用行政權去對抗檢舉人,你們的當時的副主委,用你們公權力、機關名義發一個新聞稿。"},{"start":17592.691,"end":17609.963,"text":"新聞稿是說我迴避的理由是很高尚很高尚因為這個東西沒有行政的真正性所以不需要按照你們的要點第8點有偏撥或是說利益衝突所以根本沒有這個問題因為它形式的真正性都還沒有"},{"start":17610.743,"end":17626.635,"text":"所以我們的副主委是高道德標準自己迴避那我現在你們要回應你們自己的行政的你們的新聞稿啊問了半天問題新聞稿到底發的對不對你們要去檢討這跟司法完全無關如果查出來是有行政真正性"},{"start":17627.395,"end":17654.703,"text":"他就不是高道德標準回應啊你要回應立法院你要回應很多的一個民眾你要回應當時去檢舉的人你羞辱了別人讓 對不對那到底行政真正性到底是還不是嗎我覺得你們在扯齁說是就是嘛經過兩年查出來他到底是不是人家簡訊去傳內容是不是涉及違法那後面再去弄我是覺得這個部分你們事後說清楚謝謝"},{"start":17658.773,"end":17659.274,"text":"接下來有請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":17674.008,"end":17685.339,"text":"主席有請通傳會主秘黃文哲、基礎設施處處長陳春木、平台事業管理處副處長、黃天陽、電台與內容事業處處長、林慧琳好,林處長委員好"},{"start":17697.418,"end":17717.899,"text":"我先跟我們的主秘還有我們的通傳會的幾位首長說一聲辛苦了你們就被一個不合法的一個代理主委連累了我要特別講一件事情我想請問主秘國人對於打詐的成績滿意嗎"},{"start":17721.288,"end":17741.842,"text":"經過這一、這兩年我們的努力我們的各式各樣的作息我剛剛已經聽過你的詢談你自我感覺能力不輸給這個不法的代理主委但是我要跟你講你知道根據民意調查台灣有多少人接到詐騙訊息94%接過詐騙訊息到現在為止詐騙案件逐年創新高國人對詐騙打詐成績是很不滿意的你認同吧"},{"start":17749.614,"end":17773.928,"text":"我們會繼續再加強努力不用努力了啦你不就一個詐欺的代理主委在那邊我還期待你打詐做得出來你就是一個不合法沒有正當性的代理主委在這邊我還期待你今天一個NCC在一個不法代理的情況之下你不用了你不用了我知道你也忠於護非法代理主委我剛剛都幾下聽到了有這樣的一個非法代理主委在那邊"},{"start":17779.417,"end":17791.82,"text":"整個NCC還對他能有什麼期待不用期待了再來我要想請教一下請問一下祖密阿你會告訴我這個通傳會組織法第4條第1項的規定是什麼告訴我這個法條你平常不知道我無所謂啦今天這個場合你不知道我就很有意見啦要翻六法全書啦"},{"start":17809.434,"end":17838.905,"text":"今天就所有問題都出在這個法條不是嗎本會自委員7人均為專任任期4年 任滿得連任一次已連任者不得再任請問這翁伯中先生齁我連代理主委都不是很想稱呼他啦翁伯中先生他能不能再任啊呃 各位報告因為您您在說的那個院長還沒有我們今天院長還沒有好啦後面我告訴你啦我再告訴你啦"},{"start":17840.239,"end":17864.265,"text":"就是公然赤裸裸踐踏立法院三讀通過的法律去鑽你的所謂的行政院命令定制的法律漏洞講白了就是如此講白了就是如此現在法律規定就是不得連任我們的翁先生是不能連任的更重要的是三讀也刪除原來的第四條第五項條文是什麼?三調是什麼?請問三調是什麼?又不知道了"},{"start":17869.921,"end":17891.839,"text":"當然是啊!刪掉言論的部分,就是代表可以言論還是不可以言論?你中文行不行?上次委員您在立法院通過的那個是...不來吧!你要繞回行政院,來我再問你下一個請問我們的這個NCE組織法第5條規定是什麼?英國委員...O6法全書開始熟一點"},{"start":17898.666,"end":17919.826,"text":"應國會執行支付室由副主任委員代理主任委員、副主任委員出缺或無法行使職權時由行政院長指定委員一人代理我想請問現在NCC剩幾位委員現在剩三位三位委員我告訴你這就是一個多麼惡劣的行政院今天那三位委員可不可以代理"},{"start":17922.409,"end":17949.669,"text":"我問你可不可以代理我只問你可不可以代理你不要再扯到別的地方可以但是委員會會貪婪我可以講很簡單的一件事情今天如果行政院是針對那三位的NCC委員指定代理的話就不會有今天的狀況了你要講什麼人數不足那是另外的問題我只講代理的部分我講白了"},{"start":17951.021,"end":17963.588,"text":"你今天我跟翁先生講一聲啦說實在話做官不用愛做官到這種程度啦真的不需要你為了你自己我還沒問你我做結論很快"},{"start":17965.114,"end":17991.941,"text":"你今天行政院為什麼要留翁伯忠這世界上這麼偉大只有翁伯忠先生可以當主委是為了讓委員會可以正常運作你不要來跟我來這一套你們本來說iPhone16不能上市上市了沒有上市了但是我們會有又要開始時空環境改變不是不是是因為所有的即便是上市的結果他仍然要等委員會追求你有沒有加入民進黨沒有你趕快加入啦"},{"start":17998.635,"end":18016.666,"text":"今天如果說行政院尊重立法院的法律我說真的今天啊 翁委員你稍微想一想機關尊嚴啦不需要為民進黨扛這個啦 真的整個部門因為你停當"},{"start":18018.683,"end":18031.709,"text":"今天你按照法律有這麼難嗎?沒有關係,你要抓那個以命令定之我現在就直接說,我就開始連述修法法律公佈之後就施行,你現在不用命令定之了啦,謝謝好,謝謝羅志強委員接下來有請羅廷偉委員發言"},{"start":18049.818,"end":18049.838,"text":"黃國昌議員"},{"start":18064.67,"end":18077.4,"text":"好部長好部長對於最新的打造儀表板數據10月5日單日全台詐騙案件送禮高達510件財損金額高達2億7194萬其中假投資詐騙最為嚴重詐騙的案件持續攀升部長你自己有沒有收過詐騙簡訊"},{"start":18087.788,"end":18088.709,"text":"網路上已經罵聲連連,部長你知道這件事情嗎?"},{"start":18112.216,"end":18126.449,"text":"那個報告委員這個是網路的我們說的Beta版就車子網路詐騙查詢法是個Beta版但是就一個測試版所以我們公開就是讓民眾測試然後給一些意見回來我們可以再做精進跟修改那這個APP大概花多少錢一千多萬"},{"start":18127.63,"end":18141.984,"text":"一千多萬一千多萬給我一塊錢都不用我用Google表單馬上做到給你一千多萬我想數法部坐領了這麼多的預算現在做了一個Beta被罵聲連連Google表單都做得比你好"},{"start":18142.805,"end":18157.839,"text":"Google表單要錢嗎?如果只是一個填表填資料有需要花到人民納稅錢這麼多嗎?我們心中自有一把尺開發了一個網友覺得無用的APP現在告訴我們是Beta版我要告訴大家"},{"start":18158.719,"end":18182.311,"text":"這些真的能夠符合民眾的需求嗎?無法做到實質性的預防甚至能夠協助受理案件幫忙後續來幫忙封查這些帳號甚至是未來的可疑性帳號能夠來通報我們都沒有看到這個APP有實際的作為這樣子要花一千多萬徹底能夠來杜絕詐騙的決心我沒有看到"},{"start":18183.132,"end":18196.291,"text":"實際看到這個APP上面顯示的金融投資APP已經通報了網路詐騙當中是最多的壓倒性案件再來可以看到一個月統計最奇怪的一件事情看新聞上面寫說已通報的疑似詐騙案件5.5萬條"},{"start":18198.294,"end":18201.318,"text":"其中2.7萬條以確認為詐騙確認非詐騙訊息為1.2萬則其餘可能是高風險的訊息善待處理還有重要性低等訊息但我實際下載這個APP卻很奇怪的訊息狀況"},{"start":18215.097,"end":18231.163,"text":"速發部剛出的時候我就下載了這個APP當時的總數的確是5.5萬左右我也不疑有它就沒有截圖可是在昨天下午4點18分我查看的時候啊發現疑似詐騙訊息的總數卻變成了53926跟原本的5.5萬條總數搭不上原則來說應該會變多怎麼我們的詐騙案件會變少啊"},{"start":18241.167,"end":18246.31,"text":"這真的是太奇怪了在4點27分的時候數字突然又變成了5395830分又多了兩個變成53960是系統有問題還是什麼狀況這些都影響民眾對於詐騙通報APP的信任部長您認為這個數據上面的落差有什麼問題"},{"start":18263.9,"end":18289.207,"text":"那個數據我們再回去檢查一下不過那個那個我們請那個組長報告報告委員齁因為這個你查的時間因為他每個時間在遞現在其實因為每個民眾都要下架在通報通報其實這過程中都會後台其實我們會給NINE跟META他們都會移除一個一個的把它下架掉所以這個時間點會一個一個往後移然後其實目前來講的話像之前"},{"start":18289.987,"end":18305.985,"text":"最早最早高峰大概每週大概有8萬筆的這樣子的這個詐騙的訊息但現在目前來講每週大概會降到大概1萬多筆左右所以我們持續努力當然有一些界面不是做得很好還有統計一些數據我們再精進那謝謝委員的指導我們再更努力精進"},{"start":18306.525,"end":18323.191,"text":"另外分類在該框裡面可以看到目前資訊上不足以判斷的數字是0請訴發部說明為什麼是0因為按照常理來說或多或少都會有一些難以判斷的個案尤其是你們案件量這麼大為什麼這個類別卻可以是0還是只是色好看的那個"},{"start":18326.004,"end":18344.429,"text":"我想數八部對 我想還是跟委員報告就是說這裡面的一些功能跟一些數據當然我們還需要繼續的精進但是就是說這個東西確實也讓我們在過去下架5萬多筆的加廣告所以確實有達到它的一個下架廣告的效果而且我們這個系統"},{"start":18345.629,"end":18359.997,"text":"為什麼要花這麼多錢?因為我們要跟後面跟臉書跟跟剛剛講Google去連接然後這個一些通報通報他們自動通報他們請他們下架那後面我們這個東西要確認是一個加廣一個詐騙訊息我們還要跟各部會做這樣的一個協調跟跟認證確認所以這後面有個蠻複雜的一個"},{"start":18364.36,"end":18383.23,"text":"市長我想你們都利益良善沒有人會去怪罪但是問題就是出在我們看到實際的東西出來以後不符合社會期待到底速發部對於我們現在APP上面具體的查核機制有哪些哪些指標會被用來判斷一些是訊息的危險性預估會有多長時間完成篩選和處理這個有沒有具體的時間表"},{"start":18384.15,"end":18410.622,"text":"建單之後大約多少可以完成24小時48小時還是一週我們都很期待速度越來越快透過AI科技透過這些東西通報以後能不能趕緊的受理通報每一個案件這是我們目前所期待的目前Meta佔大多數的通報案件Line的通報卻只有139筆可見我收到許多的詞情都是Line的群組在做投資詐騙可是現在這裡看到的是只有139筆"},{"start":18411.903,"end":18431.442,"text":"對﹗"},{"start":18431.462,"end":18458.296,"text":"那我希望這個部分我們要繼續彙整而且後續的改善方案你能夠在本席回應你們的資料讓我來追蹤一下因為我對這個部分我是非常大的意見如何能夠快速且有效的協助民眾通報後續攔截這是我們最重要的如何處理這些大數據能夠來趕快分類這也是我們希望民眾看到的最後我想問一下警政署本席最近接到一個陳情的案件利用回收舊衣服"},{"start":18458.756,"end":18460.298,"text":"目前每個地方好像都有類似的一個詐騙"},{"start":18483.567,"end":18509.86,"text":"包括其實網路也有使用本席的影片引導民眾加入代工群組然後告訴他們代工錢要投資這其實我們都有相關的報案資料我們還是希望警政署能夠把這一類的案件趕快統整出來配合速發部事後能夠幫忙剛剛說的市詐來做大幅度的宣傳甚至是攔截甚至是來一網打盡我想這個警政署責無旁貸一起來努力是謝謝謝謝趙偉"},{"start":18512.731,"end":18514.936,"text":"好 謝謝樓庭偉委員接下來有請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":18528.275,"end":18554.814,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊發言 要邀請書發部黃部長黃部長邀請這個主秘黃文哲主秘黃文哲主秘邀請我們行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心黃執行秘書黃執行秘邀請內政部警政署我們的副署長李副署長謝謝好 政府部門為了打詐"},{"start":18556.618,"end":18576.872,"text":"越打越詐,這是目前社會非常狼狼上口的一個語詞,但是聽到很難過。因為我們看到大家希望把這個事情能夠保護人民,但是似乎在預算不斷的增加,但是還是那四個字,越打越詐。"},{"start":18577.913,"end":18598.959,"text":"其實坦白講講到這個越打越詐除了人民難過我想各部會以及所謂的打詐國家隊應該也都很謹慎而且也很緊張很清楚的就是說目前的社會現象是如此所以我首先我們先從內部再來看社會面向"},{"start":18599.679,"end":18616.282,"text":"第一個警政署你打詐宣傳費你暴增了13倍114年度裡頭2.4億你113年度是1700多萬所以本席也看到你竟然兩年度的說明是一字未改啊"},{"start":18617.74,"end":18640.561,"text":"差了一年你要多了兩億的經費但是你在說明欄裡頭是一字未改所以本席也特別提出希望你們要怎麼樣告訴我們你要怎麼樣的具體方案所以到目前為止你只告訴我們辦公室說什麼你要加大電視以及網路防詐的這個宣傳力道"},{"start":18641.622,"end":18661.605,"text":"但是我們告訴你你要增加的這些錢增加的這個13倍到底你的具體執行計畫到底是怎麼樣從9月份到現在已經10月份一個多月的時間拿不出來你們到底是不願意拿出來還是你們有具體方案"},{"start":18662.54,"end":18664.182,"text":"副座請說說明這個公點都知道請你針對本席的提問"},{"start":18679.738,"end":18704.955,"text":"本席要說你這個差一年增加了兩億的經費到底你要怎麼做你會增加經費就是知道目前社會的現象是緊張的所以我們要支持但是你要有一個KPI你到底要怎麼做你的具體方案你的KPI是怎麼樣一個多月在你預算編列送到立法院到現在請從議到現在"},{"start":18708.317,"end":18710.619,"text":"本期一直追這個案子到目前為止還沒提出具體方案你有預算一定有方案嘛你什麼時候可以提出啊"},{"start":18733.334,"end":18738.295,"text":"接下來卓榮泰先生也講過院長講過集中打詐宣傳標案得標廠商集中高度所有的單位有沒有這回事"},{"start":18763.953,"end":18789.296,"text":"卓院長說如果這回事要檢討有沒有這回事我們目前是公開招標的當然是公開招標請針對問題回答吧要不然難怪是越打越炸卓院長已經說話了如果是高度集中的時候要檢討要不要檢討那當然因為我們明年就開始用複試今年就開始用複試結標了"},{"start":18791.055,"end":18812.603,"text":"明年也是複式結標的所以你們也看到各單位都在這邊也看到如果是集中標案變成全如左院長所說的你們也想要改變方法廣泛訊德你只有叫我們說要試詐你們要去宣傳道高一尺魔高一丈啊"},{"start":18813.643,"end":18813.723,"text":"打詐中心"},{"start":18829.471,"end":18835.253,"text":"行政院宣布打詐經費預計編列73億比2024年增加了4.8倍那請問大幅增加這個預算的重點是什麼你有沒有方案"},{"start":18846.656,"end":18863.506,"text":"防損、財損的績效指標你要怎麼樣降低這些案件本席給你一個數字給你這個數字也就是說我們看到現在在監獄裡頭受刑人全部全國五萬八千人五萬八千人裡頭"},{"start":18865.373,"end":18882.513,"text":"五萬八千人裡頭第一個吸毒者第二個就是我們的這個詐欺犯讓我很難過我們如果五萬八千人統計這兩個一二名的排行榜就將近有三萬五千多人"},{"start":18883.234,"end":18905.77,"text":"是因為這樣子所以剛剛北京也在司法委員會我所提出我說這樣子的一個詐欺案件已經困擾了全國的民眾接到詐騙警察的電話占上94%怎麼辦怎麼辦所以請教我們預計要編列的73億的這些經費你的在2024年增加4.8倍你的"},{"start":18910.92,"end":18932.838,"text":"計較指標是什麼是 感謝委員跟我們指導提出這麼聚焦的一個問題在明年的預算當中有增淚的部分就是因為我們要因應網路科技運用進進計畫這個會增多了50多億元那這個區塊就是為了回應那個現在委員在你的那個簡報上面所提到的對於網路區塊"},{"start":18934.079,"end":18962.294,"text":"因為他都是透過VPN我們希望能夠留存必要的訊息未來才能夠做後續的反查跟追蹤那第二個更重要的是在打詐綱領2.0在明年的時候我們目前也積極的召集各部會持續來研討不管是在四大堵詐防詐、阻詐跟懲詐五個面向會就目前我們社會大眾所期待的"},{"start":18962.614,"end":18988.653,"text":"要做具體的策略還有提出具體的分項指標應該會讓國連有一個耳目新而且能夠有感的一個具體的做法以上好我也謝謝你剛才的回答我們也希望能夠有這個理念方向要去落實你的KPI竟然定出來所以我再給你一個數字現在居冠的詐書是什麼假投資是"},{"start":18990.287,"end":19010.773,"text":"假投資的詐騙是低迷我們看到到8月份都是站上4成以上我們又看到一天至少有3億的財損金額產生雖然我們政府也提出了打詐這個儀表本真正的還原真相"},{"start":19011.773,"end":19038.779,"text":"也就是目前受騙的財損的金額案件數字以及財損的額度是足足在增加所以如果以目前的現象來看到2024年我們退工會有千億以上的人民的財損、受損這是非常的嚴重所以因此不管是在臉書、Google這些剛才所說的網路平台的一個廣告你們要怎麼樣"},{"start":19040.339,"end":19069.102,"text":"去合作主詐如果政府這個聯繫工作沒有做那也就是在整個網路的平台管理方法你有什麼更精進的方案請做說明感謝委員一直關注在網路這個區塊那個打詐新釋法他的核心要件就是讓民眾減少接觸減少誤信才能夠減少被害他已經94%全部都有怎麼辦"},{"start":19070.1,"end":19095.207,"text":"所以說在網路的區塊我們透過打詐新法要求的就是平台業者要能夠在源頭做好自主管理他是等待不是等待著民眾報案之後我們才來通報下架而是在廣告投放前就應該依照合約的自主管理你現在討論到這裡也就是本席要跟你討論的精髓各單位都在這裡"},{"start":19096.699,"end":19121.434,"text":"為了這個社會現象94%的人都接到詐騙集團現在投資詐騙局管每一天有3億以上的金額的財損被詐騙掉這樣子的情況我們台灣是一個幸福美麗的國家怎麼連人民的財產安全都保不了這個政府要怎麼樣對得起民眾"},{"start":19122.615,"end":19142.441,"text":"所以請所有的相關單位剛剛打詐中心所說的也成立了一個特別小組我覺得本期建議橫向的聯繫必須要好好的去聯繫我們希望可以讓人民來安心這是國家政府必須要負責任做的對不對是加油好謝謝楊委員好接下來有請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":19163.406,"end":19171.189,"text":"謝謝主席有請打詐辦公室指揮中心黃執密然後警政署李副署長黃副署長這個大概主席也有同感每個會期在各個委員會召開打詐的專案會議就起碼10次以上以內政委員會召開兼交通委員會召開事由法制委員會召開"},{"start":19190.895,"end":19217.978,"text":"這個財政委員會召開也許聯合經濟委員會也會召開為什麼那麼多的委員會都要召開如果你真的打詐有用的話產生嚇阻效果而且讓人民有感我們透過打詐司法以前的無法現在的司法如果確實發揮作用讓人民受損的金額降低案件減少我想這個部分不會那麼密集來召開打詐會議"},{"start":19219.366,"end":19228.968,"text":"我先請教一下這個指揮中心黃子密這個你的角色行政院站在行政院高柱打詐辦公室都要編制"},{"start":19230.685,"end":19257.218,"text":"跟委員報告目前打詐辦公室除了指揮官一人、執行秘書一人以外各部會目前還有6位那你們是任務編組嘛是那你們是指揮協調嗎還是什麼還是一個做一個匯報中心各部會的這個資料你要匯報給這個行政院、行政院長跟委員報告打詐指揮中心的核心目標是要統合跨部會那這個統合的功能有沒有出來"},{"start":19258.038,"end":19270.497,"text":"目前持續在推動努力當中指揮官是誰?內政部長是內政部政務次長馬世元馬次長他可以協調那麼多部會嗎?那你這個部會你這個指揮中心多久開始會?"},{"start":19272.322,"end":19299.355,"text":"目前從8月27日馬次長擔任指揮官以來已經有兩次召開跨部會的會議因為這個任務編組要發揮功能你要協助這個各部會在執行面有哪些碰到哪些問題資源有哪些不夠法制面不足你們去了解不是為了成立任務編組來編組那個警政署李副署長、黃局長"},{"start":19303.249,"end":19329.851,"text":"這個你們從這個從新世代打擊詐欺、張綱領1、2年打詐無法、1、3年再通過打詐釋法這個打詐釋法通過之後你們這個跟警政署透過這個金融機構合作去年、今年1月到8月阻攔一萬兩千件"},{"start":19331.747,"end":19346.173,"text":"一萬兩千件一萬兩千件我算了一下這個一天幾件一天六千一個月幾件一到八月一天發生五十件是沒有錯嗎是"},{"start":19349.11,"end":19370.538,"text":"有沒有做過相關統計那是屬於在都會區比較多還是非都會區比較多區別有沒有是北部比較多還是這個南部比較多六都的建樹會比較多六都的建樹比較多六都的建樹比較多所以你要分析為什麼六都的建樹會比較多因為他使用這個網路的平台的機會比較大所以犯罪的元首在哪裡"},{"start":19372.113,"end":19389.722,"text":"魔鬼藏在哪裡?就在平台嘛你沒有一個平台他就沒有被他犯罪的可能性跟空間嘛所以那麼多打詐的作為你是把平台管理好就好嚴打平台嚴管平台嚴打平台給他們最強的約束力跟拘束力你如果說不到你就滾出台灣"},{"start":19391.426,"end":19404.189,"text":"這個你要拿出這種魄力啊你要了解所有的這個詐騙都是後過這個平台嘛你也心知肚明嘛 對不對你是被動的去檢舉人家檢舉8日之後你再去處理還是你們主動去上網去看這個是民眾他去"},{"start":19411.297,"end":19426.074,"text":"接到詐騙以後然後詐騙集團他到請他到金融機關去復款所以他才攔住金融機關的攔住一天50次一天50件有報案的那沒有報案的黑書有幾件可能更多啊"},{"start":19428.226,"end":19453.872,"text":"所以為什麼會有這個問題就是他們透過網路平台得到這些訊息 啊 得到這些詐騙的訊息之後他才被誘騙去轉帳或之類的 對不對對 所以我們才會其他的部會啊 就數位部還有其他部會 你們是執行單位但是誰是網路平台的這個主管機關數位部數位部 是數位部是哪一位代表 部長嗎黃部長"},{"start":19457.108,"end":19457.768,"text":"網路平台的配合度怎麼樣?"},{"start":19477.995,"end":19478.015,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":19495.677,"end":19508.701,"text":"好謝謝邱志偉委員接下來有請張家俊委員張家俊張家俊委員不在下一位有請郭國文委員發言主席謝謝有請黃營南黃部長黃部長"},{"start":19529.95,"end":19549.585,"text":"國務委員好部長好部長你知道有一個數支付洗錢425億的事情吧請再說明數數支付的第三方支付的業者這個部分其實在之前本席在強調第三方支付是歸我們數位部所管轄"},{"start":19550.762,"end":19572.312,"text":"那過往沒有一個比較好的行政納管的模式然後呢我們用了一個所謂的這個能量登錄那時候本來是要採取法律專門不管怎麼樣就去年的8月就開始了但是呢你們有進行查核你們查核機制有兩種方式那一個是網路上一個偵測一個是實地的查核"},{"start":19572.992,"end":19598.124,"text":"在3月間的時候你們曾經查核過了兩次因為發現了內機內控有問題KYC也沒有做好沒有專職封控人員沒有公司內部的交易監控等等很嚴重喔都沒有採取任何的行政作為也沒有進行任何的行政處罰後來等到5月剪掉縮首之後貴部在7月9號的時候才廢止這個登錄資格"},{"start":19600.029,"end":19620.056,"text":"部長我想在520之前當然不是您在執行嘛在520之後你覺得這此事有沒有什麼檢討啊這個有沒有行政司令嘛你自己覺得嘛你都已經要納管了第三支付是你們業管的我們要加強集合跟納管沒錯這個我上任之後有要求欸425億欸嘿呀"},{"start":19624.591,"end":19636.289,"text":"而且你現在第三方支付當中呢總共高達你納管的家屬是68家之多欸你有沒有想過去去徹查過其他的家屬有沒有造成類似的情勢的發生有沒有可能"},{"start":19638.029,"end":19664.639,"text":"有積合再平和我們有積合41家了跟委員報告我們有積合41家了積合41家那是連68家都還沒有積合完嘛對不對是我們會選擇我們跟治法當中有合作重點不是積合幾家重點你積合了什麼用了什麼作為3月都弄到搞到7月才廢除搞到剪掉的時候已經把你查獲了你3月都已經清除了你居然還沒有廢除"},{"start":19665.725,"end":19668.367,"text":"這沒有檢討空間嗎 這沒有行政私能嗎任由讓他去洗錢改善報告我讓你看一下他比你會改善啊你看這家公司他還加入這個FIDO的國際組織而且這個FIDO國際組織會員當中他用這種方式還強調他是屬於防詐神隊友"},{"start":19697.726,"end":19718.886,"text":"為自己洗名聲阿花錢洗名聲阿照說這一個業者阿他基本上沒有提供任何的認證服務阿他是購買者他不是提供者他根本就需要加入FIDO為什麼企業形象嘛好包裝嘛掩飾他的犯罪行為嘛部長"},{"start":19720.157,"end":19744.321,"text":"像這種有沒有要叫他把他廢掉啊FIDELINES這個國際組織加入這個國際組織的管理辦法我不是很清楚不過基本上他是沒有審核機制就是那如果其他的行為當初你們要注意一下這一個者好再拉回來講時間不多我算給你聽啊這一家大概百分之百的洗錢公司啊你看他當初跟你報的日均的交易額是3000萬成立了4年的時間365天加起來啊438億"},{"start":19751.249,"end":19752.61,"text":"剛好被查到了425億部長我剛才跟你質詢了好幾分鐘啊你說要加強要怎麼加強法"},{"start":19760.561,"end":19765.084,"text":"兩階段的查核一個是網路監測你有沒有達到實質的效果二來實地的調查你有沒有達到一定的成效"},{"start":19784.093,"end":19809.495,"text":"是不是笑死人第三方支付這麼多家結果你拿給他所謂的能量登錄變成是整個數位部去背書這些洗錢公司部長你先上來啦你也算倒霉啦但是呢我講白一點啦你既然上了你就要承受這個責任跟任務吧我跟你說有一個可能的方式啦本席的建議啊"},{"start":19811.638,"end":19834.995,"text":"面對這些業務的一個監督啊我建議說你要定期的這個查核他的財報啊必要時候派一些會計師去實地的查核簡單的講現在金管會有人在這邊啊10億上到20億之間財報金管會要管啊10億以下你們去管啊欸那個副主委你也知道來來來副主委你提供經驗給一個部長一下部長主席耽誤再一分鐘時間啊"},{"start":19841.82,"end":19859.689,"text":"跟委員報告有關的第三方支付如果日平均是如果20億的話就要申請特許事業變成電資所以到底第三方支付有沒有達到相關的這個金額我們也有就是說特定的金額比較接近的"},{"start":19860.389,"end":19885.65,"text":"有找會計師,要求會計師去做一些查核,看看他的金額怎麼樣,然後提供給這個數位部做參考。是,副主委你講沒有錯,基本上20億上是電子支付,但是你們有把那個管轄權下放到10億到20億之間,要進行一個這個財報的了解嘛,對不對?我覺得希望你們把這套制度給數位部好不好?讓他查10億以下可以嗎?"},{"start":19886.471,"end":19892.743,"text":"部長可以嗎?可以嗎?可以嗎?他有經驗,給你這樣可以嗎?好不好?OK,好,謝謝部長,謝謝。"},{"start":19897.574,"end":19916.073,"text":"好,謝謝郭委員接下來有請鄭振權委員鄭振權、鄭振權委員不在李博毅委員李博毅、李博毅委員不在林柱英委員、林柱英、林柱英委員不在接下來有請林月君委員發言"},{"start":19929.134,"end":19933.832,"text":"主席有請那個黃部長跟翁主委好黃部長翁主委"},{"start":19941.84,"end":19968.269,"text":"部長跟諸位兩位好今天一次請兩位上來是因為這個問題是我在總質詢的時候就有提可是時間來不及我沒辦法細談那如同我的質詢標題上而受網路的環境遭遇的風險比我們想像的更複雜或也更多也更危險那如果放任不去管理的話我想記詐騙之後我們可能會形成另外一個網路犯罪的一個溫床下一頁"},{"start":19969.502,"end":19991.514,"text":"那從數據上來看我們兒少在5到10歲也就是幼稚園階段到國小的中年級大概就已經開始接觸網路那每天用8點3小時所以兒少不是使用網路而是生活在網路下一頁那我們有一個情緒即換期刊也"},{"start":19992.338,"end":20016.77,"text":"提出了一個研究結果說我們的相關的訊息外傳跟網路的一個遊戲活動跟網路霸凌跟我們的自殺風險有高度的相關那所以今天就想來跟兩位談一談所謂的產業面這一件事情來下一頁這是上禮拜吼我們的TREI裡邊非常多的TREI友們"},{"start":20017.659,"end":20038.546,"text":"一時之間湧入到我的推理篇去談這個話題問我說誰要來處理這件事情為什麼呢因為學生是在2022年繳交的一個作業而且是私人影片傳給體育老師然後他的影片他自己都刪除了可是為什麼會在網路上而且不是只有他"},{"start":20039.175,"end":20061.231,"text":"還有很多同學的影片都上傳了那像這樣子的話不知道坦白講我當時找不到一個直接可以處理我要找衛福部的兒少全法來做處理嗎沒有我還是要找儀式網路主管機關的速發部還是要找NCC的網際網路傳播辦公室兩位我想請教一下我到底要找誰來處理這件事情"},{"start":20063.303,"end":20086.813,"text":"報告委員我們是按照兒少法46條有設立一個就是去有一個防範的機制那那個機制I 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要把這個"},{"start":1712.536,"end":1722.215,"text":"請主秘報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員14位以主法定人數我們現在開始開會首先進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議書"},{"start":1723.564,"end":1743.147,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事落時間113年9月30日星期一9時2分至12時9分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員、林代化委員等14人、列席委員、陳金輝委員等18人、列席人員、公民會主委、李美季相關人員"},{"start":1743.867,"end":1760.857,"text":"主席、李昭吉委員、玉琳報告事項一、宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定二、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況．並備質詢公平會主委李美報告後委員林黛華等18人提出質詢,均由公平會李主委暨相關人員即席答覆"},{"start":1761.597,"end":1786.293,"text":"決定一、登記方案文出不在場者外,區域均與方案完畢,詢答結束二、文憲一奉幾頁原資所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三、書面質詢和未及答覆部分檢証單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會、散會。宣讀完畢好,這場委員會人數還不足算人,我意思先暫步處理"},{"start":1788.041,"end":1813.326,"text":"好,現在繼續進行報告事項,請一併宣讀。二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。三、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部次長就《我國政府對新創及中小企業扶植政策執行狀況與未來精進措施．含政策、人才、法制、稅制、資金、區域平衡等六大面向．進行報告．並備質詢。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1817.639,"end":1828.231,"text":"好 我們首先請國家發展委員會劉敬欽主委做報告報告時間10分鐘夠不夠兩份報告兩份報告15分鐘好好 謝謝"},{"start":1841.958,"end":1848.85,"text":"主席還有各位立委先進大家早非常榮幸有這個機會來這裡發表我們國發會的業務報告"},{"start":1854.413,"end":1873.991,"text":"我想我會盡快的精簡的報告這個內容我們先就經濟情勢來看我國的經濟成長率預估今年應該還會在3.9%左右那整個變化看起來並不是那麼大那唯一是說整個下半年比較大的變化還是在於產業的驅動"},{"start":1877.714,"end":1897.683,"text":"這個產業驅動裡面從AI跟蘋果這兩塊是我們比較大的影響再來是中美的選舉的角力的問題還有就是選舉的結果那目前我們評估下來問題不大那主要會造成我們整個經濟這麼繁榮的原因主要是來自於出口我們出口預計今年會成長8.71%"},{"start":1899.804,"end":1914.212,"text":"那民間的投資也成長了大概3.89那也是歷年來第二次超過5兆大概5.3兆左右的民間投資也是非常的力道非常驚人那民間的消費我們也成長了2.78%"},{"start":1916.693,"end":1930.444,"text":"所以整個經濟的成長率就會達到3.9%以上雖然是全球來講是表現比較優秀的國家那我們施政的方向大概有四個第一個是透過創新思維扮演全球經濟關鍵的角色"},{"start":1932.446,"end":1947.163,"text":"二、投資人才,形塑新時代的國際人才競爭力。三、強化區域合作,促成區域的永續發展與均衡。四、持續開放政府政策,提升市政透明度。"},{"start":1948.484,"end":1972.306,"text":"我們在經濟創新的部分我們主要是推動信賴物產業在半導體、AI、軍工、次世代、通訊跟安控這幾個產業半導體會以經濟部為主然後國會輔助研究的部分我們希望打造一個完整的供應鏈韌性這裡面最要強化的是兩個部分第一個部分是材料的部分第二個部分是半導體的設備"},{"start":1973.667,"end":1996.738,"text":"同時我們也積極的會去協助半導體封裝產業進入西光子那這個的話是讓強化臺灣在全球的供應鏈領導力那AI的部分我們除了持續強化我們在零件端的研發跟製造之外我們也會在應用端會強化那這個部分會結合到觸發部、經濟部跟國科會共同的打造"},{"start":1997.398,"end":2013.511,"text":"那軍工產業會由經濟部主政那以無人機或是無人載具為主無人機無人船都會是一個很重要的關鍵那我們在次世代通訊目前是以經濟部為主那我們會佈建新的這個網路那這裡面也會輔佐到"},{"start":2014.793,"end":2033.011,"text":"速發部跟國科會那另外安控產業呢因為安控的核心是AI所以是速發部來核心主導那讓整個國人可以在一個更安全的環境下工作跟生活那另外在均衡產業部分我們也希望協助整個傳統產業跟服務業的價值提升"},{"start":2035.093,"end":2061.719,"text":"透過三個效率化的提升第一個是數位效率化以AI來導入然後協助產業發展第二個事情是資本的效率化促成產業控股發展然後擴大經濟規模然後讓我們的透過經濟規模具備國際競爭力再來是因為有了資本效率化之後就容易就有資金去做它的效率再造那我們效率化的提升從供應鏈到成本都有助於整個產業的發展"},{"start":2062.984,"end":2084.627,"text":"那另外在創新經濟裡面我們還有一個就是我們遷移打造創新產業那創新創業這個生態系我們目標是到2027年可以每年達到1500億那我們今年其實做了蠻多的變動主要是來自於活絡投資生態系再來是擴大投資標的跟提升創業的成功率這三個生態系統的發展"},{"start":2086.269,"end":2113.014,"text":"那我們尤其在投資活絡生態系我們最近做得非常多在主題式的投資我們這個AI我們匡列了100億我們在文化部也匡列100億那我們最近在大健康也匡列100億所以呢我們都在擴大然後透過學校跟國際串聯那尤其是我們前一陣子到日本我們接受了採訪大概有110個媒體那是一個很好的一個這個milestone對國際而言"},{"start":2117.2,"end":2127.27,"text":"國發基金是我們這裡面很重要的一環那國發基金的成立是促進國內產業的創新跟轉型他並不是以盈利為目的但是我們在112年還是創造了288億的獲利那雖然"},{"start":2132.635,"end":2157.833,"text":"每一個過程裡面一定有好跟不好的部分但是我們積極對我們需要改進的地方也做了很多的強化那我們主要是針對我們過去在創業轉移基金的投資部分做了很強的投資機制的改善跟投後的管理主要是投錢的機制改善強化投後的管理再來是我們強化我們未來的退場機制所以我們現在也有有標的正在進行退場"},{"start":2159.417,"end":2179.933,"text":"那再來是兆元投資國家建設方案裡面我們希望引進更多的資金進來所以跟金管會、財政部共同的合作我們這個也取得了行政院的同意那我們現在是會放寬部分的法令同時呢我們建立一個平台在行政院然後透過院級的平台來促進雙邊的投資"},{"start":2182.233,"end":2200.94,"text":"那另外在我們創新經濟裡面還有一塊是透過經濟的角度去協助國家建立更多的夥伴關係所以我們在中東歐的合作跟這個我們也做了非常多的經貿的合作那最近在日本我們開始展開了新的一些動作那也創造了彼此之間的關係"},{"start":2202.779,"end":2229.479,"text":"那最後再來是我們在談投資人才的部分我們也是推動了人才競爭力方案這集合了八個部會那主要兩個主軸第一個是強化國家人才的競爭力第二個主軸是全球人才那我們希望再來我們同時這裡面比較新的概念是來自於是提升勞動生產力透過數位化那再來是培育我們未來數位競爭力以及國人勞參率那這個裡面呢"},{"start":2233.03,"end":2252.284,"text":"這個纜財的部分我們會正在進行修法我們預計公告之後我們就會在協調部會中在公告之後我們就會送立院我們希望能夠擴大我們的這個纜財條件跟國際上的主要競爭者之間可以有一定的競爭力然後我們建立一個比較好的流財的"},{"start":2254.006,"end":2267.601,"text":"機構、生態系那因為過去我們發現很多人來了以後呢因為我們的這個生活環境的生態系不夠完整所以我們透過我們雙語政策呢在強化這個部分那再來我們放我們也擴大外國機事人員留才的"},{"start":2269.663,"end":2294.476,"text":"的程度那再來是在區域合作的部分我們主要是在做區域治理跟地方民主我們希望建立區域治理沙盒尤其是主題式的區域治理沙盒是應該是國內第一次那這個主題式的就會依據不同的主題比如說海港、山林等等的方式來進行那我們希望透過這樣的方式可以讓地方的發展更好"},{"start":2295.296,"end":2309.886,"text":"那也地方有更多的參與能力再來是我們參與這個參與式的公共治理平臺我們現在會積極的持續去推動讓地方青年跟地方的社會都可以共同參與整個公共治理的發展"},{"start":2310.726,"end":2336.36,"text":"那另外我們會希望建立一個地方創生藍帶就進入我們新世代的地方創生地方創生過去是以廠家為主我們現在希望想要串聯這個廠家變成一個數大辨識美的力量那同時透過這個數大辨識美的力量能夠去建立在地品牌同時結合企業的資源進入這個協助地方的發展能夠更完整"},{"start":2337.503,"end":2359.907,"text":"那我們在負責我們的中興新村部分我們也依據原規劃在北核心做歷史文化區的發展中核心是休閒生活區的發展我們現在正在持續做這兩塊的優化那同時在南核心我們就以中興大學合作那進行發展那在歷史文化區我們在一些空置的部分呢我們現在是提供做創新"},{"start":2360.908,"end":2369.885,"text":"創業的團隊尤其是地方創生團隊進駐的廠家現在是非常多那另外我們進一步會希望引進數位牧民進到這個領域然後也跟地方做充分的結合"},{"start":2370.868,"end":2395.674,"text":"那在花東的部分我們負責發動離展條例我們現在進到花蓮台東的第4期那第4期的話花蓮提出的第4期中華發展方案的願景是智慧花蓮有機慢活台東推出來是推動慢經濟、綻放台東南那目前我們都已核定所以再積極的協助在地的發展那尤其在觀光、醫療、原住民文化、救災"},{"start":2396.474,"end":2416.552,"text":"以及交通我們補助的比較多那再來是在0403地震之後呢我們也提供了受災戶的融資保證那也協助了食材業者的災後的清運那再來是我們也協助了振興這個花東觀光以及補助了花東航班"},{"start":2417.593,"end":2437.409,"text":"在離島的部分我們還是依據離島建設條例進入到第6期各島都有做法比較大的亮點是澎湖的石滬的維護以及在澎湖連江的島際海運的補貼跟金門醫療的補助跟琉球海洋生態保育還有離島遠距離島的強化"},{"start":2440.233,"end":2462.98,"text":"那我們另外在12項淨零方案裡面本會被分到的是不遺落任何人的淨零公正轉型那這些公正轉型我們大概舉個例子大概是比如說推動電動車可能會對計車行的影響或者是我們在太陽光電下面我們對農民的影響那我們都在積極的協助他們"},{"start":2464.5,"end":2490.525,"text":"克服或者是給予一定的補助那目前我們今年的主軸會以事前的防禦為主就是我們在協助各部會在事前的計畫編列裡面就做好它的風險評估跟這個風險的縮減的計畫然後呢難以縮減難以減少的部分再移到本會來處理所以我們會由預防的角度到事後協助的角度我們會同時進行"},{"start":2491.625,"end":2499.032,"text":"那我們在開放國家的方案我們也是會持續在多元增給部分跟提案的部分還有我們承諾的部分都會進行強化"},{"start":2502.383,"end":2528.668,"text":"另外在這個推動智慧管理就是我們在公共建設我們一年大概有8000億那我們現在透過預警制度就是從過去是看事後的結果我們現在開始進行智慧管理系統在預警事前的管理那這個管理的部分目前下來我們撞了兩年下來都可以把我們的執行率達到95%以上那今年預計也會在95%以上"},{"start":2530.928,"end":2547.095,"text":"那另外再一次我們在法令鬆綁的部分我們也是推動了開放平台給大家提案那我們在106年到103年我們大概累計到現在已經有1982個提案成果那另外我們對於歐"},{"start":2549.116,"end":2570.421,"text":"這個歐、美、日、紐、澳的商會提出了白皮書我們協助這個整合各部會跟這些商會進行溝通協助這些國家的商會能夠在臺灣可以做得比較好促進雙方的友誼所以這個部分跟經貿的往來所以這部分我們也提供了這個1,121項建言的協調跟這個回應"},{"start":2575.402,"end":2600.302,"text":"那再來是我們的這個部會的公共參與平台裡面我們目前大概也這個實施了大概163個公眾建議那事實上提案呢超過19000多個那經過5000人的提名下來有300多個案子那裡面被挑選執行的是163個那執行效果還不錯那目前公告上網看的人數也達到了962萬人次"},{"start":2601.923,"end":2622.211,"text":"那最後是我們的國家檔案館我們國家檔案館會在明年目前我們國家全國第一座國家檔案館在林口那目前的施工進度達到94.88%所以預計明年的年底就會正式啟用那會成為一個屬於國際級的一個檔案管理中心那"},{"start":2623.444,"end":2650.569,"text":"那最後這個這個謝謝這個立法院這個對我們的支持我們相信在未來的會務的處理跟執事上我們都可以這個彼此合作呢讓臺灣可以邁向更好更榮耀的未來那這是我對本會的報告那接下來是那個新創跟中小企業扶植政策也是由主委報告嗎還是對對對好請繼續好那我們就"},{"start":2653.832,"end":2671.747,"text":"再來我們可能要切換過來我就繼續把它報告完這個好那接下來我們進行對政府就是我們對新創及中小企業扶植政策執行狀況與未來精進的措施進行做專題報告"},{"start":2674.793,"end":2698.847,"text":"我們在新創事業裡面我們希望打造一個創新創業的雨林生態系這個生態系我們大概會提供充裕的資金我們希望一年能夠達到1500億台幣的規模然後我們在創新人才跟法規上面我們要進行適度的鬆綁跟改善同時協助我們新創事業能夠拓展到海外市場"},{"start":2699.767,"end":2716.137,"text":"那因為台灣是一個島國我們的市場一定在全世界那目前台灣的成就也是來自於對世界的影響力那我們在提供這個新創充裕資金的部分我們目前國發基金的投資在新創的部分呢"},{"start":2716.697,"end":2722.401,"text":"我們有創業天使投資方案提供了38億天使人投資機構我們透過VC去協助的有110億所以這邊我們提供了148億給天使團隊那同時對於新創團隊的部分比較成熟一點的新創團隊我們在"},{"start":2735.229,"end":2758.19,"text":"也投資了這個中小企業實施方案由經濟部來協助同時我們也跟民間合作大概100億這個合起來呢我們這邊有200億所以也將近348億是在提供到青年上面那另外呢我們這是現況我們待會會說明我們未來會再增加的部分在什麼地方"},{"start":2758.931,"end":2783.08,"text":"那另外我們對青年創業貸款我們也有一個方案是從優從簡從速我目前也核保了這個10.8萬件每個案件那融資協助融資也達到了895億那另外是我們擴大這個新創的出場那我們協助他們進入新創版那目前有19家已經登錄進新創版那比較有名的是像GoGo Look這種"},{"start":2784.66,"end":2799.4,"text":"那另外在充裕創新人才跟完善環境上面我們第一個是提供的就業金卡很多創業者跟尤其是創業共識的老闆這個其實申請的就業金卡數量是比較多的"},{"start":2800.622,"end":2824.839,"text":"那這樣有助於他們來台創業那同時我們產狀條例提供租稅又是鼓勵企業投資天使我們希望創造CVC的投資環境我們最近也會希望籌組這樣的協會協助CVC擴大這個更大的投資量能進到市場上那我們對企業併購法我們也開始有一些鬆綁那也協助了"},{"start":2825.72,"end":2849.381,"text":"大家到海外去參加培訓那我們也合作了很多史丹佛大學也好或者是伯克萊也好或者是這個新創機構的這個Dropper那舉個例子我們臺灣的精創生拓我們在兩年前就得到了Mint的Dropper第五季全球的冠軍那這個也是透過伯克萊的協助那我們"},{"start":2850.629,"end":2870.394,"text":"這家公司在去年也得到了Sushi Tech2024年全球前7強這是東京市政府辦的一個新創比賽所以臺灣的企業現在開始在我們前陣子在日本我們也帶他們去參加了日本的活動讓他們去邁向全球"},{"start":2873.895,"end":2888.872,"text":"我想這個左下角的照片就是我們在數據Tag跟日台創新官方會員裡面所展現出來的結果那我們大概今年有46家廠商到日本去開拓自己的市場當然是效果非常好也得到了包括NHK的媒體都有報導"},{"start":2890.236,"end":2909.183,"text":"那另外在這個創新創新未來的雨林生態系裡面我們會做三件事情第一個是我們要活絡投資生態圈然後擴大投資標的然後提升創新的創業的成功機率就是我們讓優質的被投資標的變多那投資量才會跟著起來"},{"start":2910.143,"end":2930.253,"text":"那我們首先在如何活絡投資生態系我們原有的生態系大概是有800多億我們希望今年能夠我們今年應該已經把它拉到了1200億的規模去那這樣的做法主要是希望透過幾個方式第一個是主題式的投資我們曾透過速發部的匡列了100億去做這個AI的投資"},{"start":2933.675,"end":2948.907,"text":"我們透過文化部進行文創的投資也是跨越100億我們未來會正在進行大健康的部分希望協助醫療機構的創新創業增加收入我們也同時會跟環境部正在協商綠色成長基金協助綠色成長產業能夠擴大那這種主題式的不斷的擴大就會"},{"start":2954.731,"end":2972.724,"text":"讓我們的投資量能變大．而且由各部會協助我們推動再來是推動地方創生的部分．我們也會長化區域發展．這個部分我們也會融入到這裡面來那另外就是我們鼓勵企業．跟機構的投資．所以我們會串聯CBC．讓Corporate的VC．也加入到我們VC這個領域裡面"},{"start":2974.125,"end":2977.39,"text":"然後同時我們引導保險基金進來希望把這個資金量能變大那同時我們跟學校合作以臺大來講呢我們第一期目標是要募10億目前來講臺大的回饋年底之前應該可以募集到該有的金額"},{"start":2989.506,"end":3010.143,"text":"那這個的話是由校友來投資國發基金搭配那由校友來學校來投資學校的研發的結果跟學生的論文甚至對校友投資那在我們也希望更擴一步接下來就會比照日本進行到一個生態系的擴大就是有一個中心學校帶動其他的"},{"start":3010.883,"end":3025.167,"text":"私立大學造成一個投資圈也讓企業加入進來這個是未來我們在下一步繼續發展的再來是我們加強國際資金的連接我們最近才跟金入大學簽了MOU我們雙方會互相投資一個基金投資兩個國家彼此之間我們最近其他的大學也開始對台灣來表達他們有興趣合作的意願所以我們也在審慎評估中"},{"start":3037.931,"end":3054.998,"text":"所以我們將來這個部分我們在日本在中東歐都會進行很大的發展那接下來我們會往美國發展那另外投資標的物的部分呢我們希望把學校的創業量能給拉大那這個部分呢是我們跟學校合作的最要的目的"},{"start":3055.598,"end":3057.439,"text":"第二個是我們會促進企業內部的創新所以我們最近開始去整合產業之間鼓勵產業進行翻轉跟創新的部分這個部分我們也會結合國科會跟經濟部一起來談怎麼樣協助產業"},{"start":3072.525,"end":3094.28,"text":"AI化跟AI產業化那同時呢我們串聯這個COBRIC VC合作呢也會帶動這部分的發展那另外是我們開始呢強化我們供應鏈韌性在我們加強投資IC設備跟材料廠商提升我們在這個產業的發展那尤其是這些尤其是這些廠商目前都被國內優質的半導體廠商淬煉到極具國際競爭力甚至已經開始外銷到海外所以我們希望擴大他們的海外行銷量能"},{"start":3102.545,"end":3124.374,"text":"為了這個部分也需要足夠的人才,所以我們也開始鎖定海外人才來台創業。我們除了建立了海外辦公室吸引人才進來之外,我們也會吸引數位牧民進來,希望他們在國內創業,協助促進地方的進步。根據最新的國外的一個報導下來,台灣應該是亞洲最適合數位牧民發展的地方。"},{"start":3125.134,"end":3145.816,"text":"也是評比全球第12名亞洲第一名那另外我們要提升這個創業成功率的部分呢我們希望建立一個這個新創基地去協助分享這些失敗與成功的經驗讓大家可以趨吉避凶然後走出自己的一條路那同時呢我們會強化商業思維"},{"start":3147.197,"end":3167.345,"text":"協助課程也會跟學校合辦課程來讓大家可以的儘早學習到創業所需要的知識跟量能那這樣的話呢再來呢我們建立的橋樑計畫我們希望的打造之間跟海外之間的合作跟經驗的分享與今年來講我們在東京的活動我們就有"},{"start":3167.905,"end":3183.335,"text":"而日本的新創跟臺灣的新創共同分享那大家彼此把經驗分享下來互相合作增加成功的機率那這幾個都是我們在新創在發展的部分所走的路線那"},{"start":3185.297,"end":3194.805,"text":"所以簡單的講我們在未來的部分我們就會很強化在創新主題式的投資的發展我們提供創業經驗那我們也讓這個我們讓產業能夠有機會更好的發展那這樣的話我相信把標的物做好投資量能成功率提升把數量衝出來以國內充沛的資金來講一千一年一千百億是"},{"start":3212.36,"end":3219.887,"text":"應該是沒有問題的我們也很有信心達到這樣的目標也希望能夠協助年輕人一起共同為國家開創未來的產業跟發展這是我們以上的報告謝謝"},{"start":3226.659,"end":3254.14,"text":"謝謝你這個國會留主委報告你書片資料跟你簡報資料我看起來書片資料是比較比較簡要是不是可以提供你的簡報資料給我們議會的委員是的那今天主題是這個新創跟中小企業新創我一直強調說經濟委員會大部分委員來自這個中南部那你新創的扶植新創的基地全部集中在北部"},{"start":3255.305,"end":3281.666,"text":"對於新創產業在南部包括是嘉義、高雄、台南都沒有任何的協助這部分為什麼我報告希望你們針對區域平衡、政策、人才、法律、稅制要怎麼樣用稅制的誘因怎麼樣提供比較充沛的資金區域平衡不要說這個所有的新創都集中在北部我請你們來說明就一家新創都沒有在南部"},{"start":3282.808,"end":3310.346,"text":"這是非常不公平的國家資源應該做到區域平衡所以我希望說在等一下這個相關的資料你們未來怎麼樣做到區域平衡資金怎麼去協助新創產業的發展然後法制面怎麼樣去協助稅制面怎麼樣去扶植這些都沒有提到我希望你這個這方面能夠補強另外中小企業你也沒有提到很多中小企業都集中在中北部特別是傳產中小企業中小企業面臨到這個經營上這個國際環境的變化"},{"start":3312.908,"end":3330.832,"text":"跟半導體跟AI完全不一樣AI半導體現在是全球最興旺的產業但是呢但是這個中小企業我們苦不堪言傳統的扣件、螺絲、鋼鐵、石化整整都是在中南部所以這些部分"},{"start":3332.97,"end":3356.485,"text":"主席會講一下為什麼會排這個議審那謝謝這個國會主委等一下也許有機會會跟這個主席報告那那個現在我要確駕一下議事錄現在在場人數已達法定人數在場委員我們對上次議事錄是有無錯誤我們決定上次會議議事錄"},{"start":3358.12,"end":3381.161,"text":"接下來請這個經濟部市長何建昌市長就今天所提的報告事項進行報告主席、各位委員承蒙貴委員會邀請就新創及中小企業扶植的政策這個主題來進行報告那進行各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":3382.093,"end":3391.619,"text":"那我想臺灣中小企業是經濟發展的這個磐石也是社會安定的一個力量那目前中小企業有超過163萬家創造就業913萬人那另外新創在臺灣整個產業創新驅動的整個經濟模式上"},{"start":3400.365,"end":3425.155,"text":"半年非常重要的一個角色那依據這個統計數據顯示目前臺灣的這個新創大約有7900家本部希望能夠運用新創的創新的技術來協助國內傳統產業及中小企業能夠達到升級轉型的目標那以下本部將針對政策、人才、法制、稅制、資金及區域平衡等六個面向來進行說明"},{"start":3428.473,"end":3455.023,"text":"先就政策面的部分在國際供應鏈重組淨零排放的要求數位轉型浪潮挑戰下為協助中小企業來接軌國際本部透過數位轉型淨零碳排及創新加值策略在數位轉型上鼓勵中小企業運用雲端數位工具在淨零碳排上普及中小企業減碳思維與行動"},{"start":3456.775,"end":3472.391,"text":"在創新價值上以研發聯盟及補助的方式來協助中小企業聯結產學員那為協助新創企業成長茁壯本部在政策上也提供新創的融資貸款然後益助新創的投資動能"},{"start":3473.332,"end":3489.246,"text":"持續營造有利於新創發展的租稅環境．並且連結中大型企業跟國營事業．鼓勵新創提出解決方案．並且強化政府和民間的協作．擴大解決方案的場域驗證以及應用．來協助新創布局重要的國際市場"},{"start":3490.487,"end":3504.539,"text":"在人才面的部分為協助中小企業因應數位及淨零的趨勢本部已經辦理了許多的智慧化及低檔化的課程至110年起已經辦理了1327個班次結訓了學院超過46000多人次"},{"start":3508.402,"end":3524.853,"text":"此外．從105年開始．我們也推動IPAS的能力的鑑定．目前已經有治安、機器學習．智慧生產、物聯網等20項的能力鑑定．累積培育2萬多名的．能力合格的產業專業人才．那為協助國際淨零的趨勢．也在113年推出了淨零．的規劃管理師的能力鑑定．培育超過4500名的低碳專業人才．"},{"start":3537.461,"end":3560.11,"text":"那另外針對具潛力的新創事業跟科研的團隊我們也有一些相關的培育的課程那這個課程包括新創募資及簡報的技巧的課程另外也提供新創商業計畫實戰的一個演練那引進國際的業師輔導以及商業概念驗證的方式來加速培育新創"},{"start":3561.01,"end":3590.079,"text":"引運及拓展海外市場的能力那從108年期間已經累計培育了524家的新創及732位的創業家在法制面上中小企業也面臨到升級轉型的挑戰所以需要持續提供創新研發跟智慧財產權流通的租稅優惠那另外今年大院也通過修正中小企業發展條例的部分條文的修正修正的重點包括中小企業投資抵減納入有限合夥"},{"start":3591.239,"end":3609.304,"text":"為適用對象那制裁權的作價入股、緩客措施延長適用徵雇員工及加薪租稅優惠均刪除景氣啟動的門檻以及提高減除率並優化適用的對象另外產業創新條例第十之一條也提供中小企業購置"},{"start":3610.504,"end":3623.031,"text":"智慧、機械、5G及資安設備或技術投資體檢另外為了要鼓勵更多的資金來益助新創事業．帶動國內投資動能及產業的轉型產創條例第23條之一對有限合夥創投事業．投資新創事業提供穿透式的租稅優惠第23之2條"},{"start":3635.526,"end":3664.676,"text":"提供天使投資人投資高風險新創事業．可以享受個人稅賦的優惠．營造新創友善的一個募資環境那在稅制面的部分威力中小企業聘僱人才及提升員工的薪資中小企業發展條例的這個修正這次的修正也維持徵僱24歲以下及增加納入65歲以上本國籍基層的一個員工薪資費用減除率均適用"},{"start":3666.877,"end":3678.346,"text":"200%員工加薪租稅的優惠將加薪新制的費用減除率由130%提高為175%此外中小企業當年度來購置智慧機械、5G及資安設備或技術達到100萬以上10億元以下得就投資金額5%當年度的投資金額5%或未來3年內3%申請抵檢、應納、營所稅的稅額"},{"start":3695.532,"end":3714.512,"text":"來減輕中小企業的負擔為引導創投資金投資國內的新創本部也針對有限合夥創投的事業提供投資新創事業相關的出稅優惠至106年迄今促成有限合夥創投事業投資新創的金額達到26.9億元"},{"start":3716.354,"end":3721.081,"text":"另外也透過國內創業鼓勵個人投資高風險的新創事業個人天使投資人以現金投資新創事業達"},{"start":3729.113,"end":3754.711,"text":"一百萬元並持有股份滿兩年得以投資金額百分之五十扣抵個人綜合所得稅總額扣抵金額最高可以達三百萬元自一百零六年迄今也有兩百六十六家的新創受惠那在資金面的部分我們也透過融資跟投資的部分來協助中小企業取得資金在融資的部分我們協助中小企業跟新創事業朝地攤化跟智慧化轉型"},{"start":3755.811,"end":3777.783,"text":"提供最低八成的信用保證以及低利貸款跟利息補貼．並額外提供保證融資額度最高一億元的優惠至112年期間已經辦理了一萬八千多件協助融資金額兩千六百十九億另外我們也推動青年創業貸款對於貸款金額一百萬以下的新貸案"},{"start":3779.083,"end":3787.549,"text":"以從優、從簡、從素的方式提供信保金最高10成的保證那輕重貸款自109年期間已經辦理了10萬8900多件融資金額達到895億元那就投資的部分"},{"start":3794.113,"end":3814.188,"text":"本部推動加強投資中小企業實施方案第二集．運用國家基金匡列的100億元．來跟民間投資人做搭配．共同投資具發展潛力的中小及新創企業．自112年10月開辦．至今已經累積投資19家的．具發展潛力的中小及新創事業．投資金額達5.47億元"},{"start":3816.77,"end":3833.123,"text":"那在區域平衡的部分那目前台灣在中南部也有144家的創意機構同時本部也補助了許多創意機構在中部跟南部地區協助中南部地區強化新創的事業那本部也選定了雅灣新創園作為"},{"start":3834.364,"end":3853.492,"text":"新創前進東南亞的培訓基地．並與微軟、Google跟AWS國際新創加速器合作．輔導534家新創促成18億的投資．另外政府也加強與國營事業．以及日月光、西門子等大型企業．跟新創來共創"},{"start":3854.733,"end":3862.597,"text":"依據這個臺灣新創資訊平臺的這個統計中南部新創的新創家數至106年的1100家成長到目前的2000家成長1.8倍那每年獲投資的金額也從108年的44億增加到112年的139.7億元那另外政府也定期邀集"},{"start":3879.745,"end":3896.888,"text":"機械、工具機及手工具等中部地區相關產業工協會進行議題的交流．來協助中部地區產業升級轉型．並再加以打造無人機的這個產業聚落那國發會、數位發展部、交通部、文化部以及經管會等也跟經濟部共同"},{"start":3897.688,"end":3923.466,"text":"來執行亞灣2.0的一個方案以南部作為智慧科技多元發展的場域促成5G、AIoT、IC設計、數位內容、金融科技、影視等產業以及應用落地另外國際晶片大廠輝達已經在高雄設立超級電腦而美商超微也將於臺南設立研發據點相信藉由政府與民間積極投資將有效均衡產業的發展"},{"start":3925.323,"end":3950.755,"text":"最後在未來經濟的做法上本部提出幾項說明第一推動中小企業多元振興發展的計畫我們會加大力道來持續推動中小企業數位轉型、淨零轉型以及通路的發展策略並提供普惠、貸款及租稅優惠等配套措施來建立企業單一服務的窗口促進中小企業的持續發展"},{"start":3951.795,"end":3973.764,"text":"第二、配合亞灣3.0營造新創的雨林,持續益助新創的投資動能．來強化投資新創的誘因．培養創新創業科技人才．同時強化新創跟產業共創合作．加速新創解決方案實證的應用．擴大智慧解決方案的輸出．並鏈結國際策略合作的夥伴．加速新創進入國際供應鏈"},{"start":3976.385,"end":4000.801,"text":"第三、四年培育20萬名的AI人才．為協助產業導入AI應用．本部跟微軟及人工智慧學校合作．共同訂立公版的教材．培訓製造業、商業服務業．以及國際商業貿易等各領域的AI人才．同時協助AI人才取得的認證另外最後一項產業創新條例的修正那修正"},{"start":4001.961,"end":4028.471,"text":"產業創新條例10-1條設備的投資體檢增訂企業構置人工智慧與節能減碳等設備或技術﹐也可以適用租稅優惠來協助產業加速雙手轉型因應整個全球氣候的變遷、數位轉型以及地緣政治對全球供應鏈加速重組的影響政府將持續完善法規並加大資金及人力資源的投入與民間攜手合作協助中小企業提升韌性"},{"start":4029.592,"end":4053.471,"text":"與競爭力．並積極協助拓展國際市場以上報告進行指教謝謝各位委員好,謝謝經濟部何市長的報告今天出席的包括國家發展委員會、劉組委跟張副組委以及各處的處長、辦管局林秋燕局長以及各處科室主任那國發會、國發基金王子密經濟部的部分由何信章正次然後"},{"start":4054.709,"end":4076.164,"text":"產業司跟中小企業署跟產業發展署三位署長都有列席出席好現在我們要進行詢答委員詢答諮詢之前願意做一下宣告每位委員發言時間本會員6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘意思就是不能超過8分鐘"},{"start":4077.717,"end":4097.725,"text":"非本位委員4分鐘上午10點30分即時發言登記是為了要讓會議進行的順利以及發言時間的公平性以及不要影響到下位委員的發言權益請發言委員在諮詢的時候控制一下發言時間發言時間到主席會"},{"start":4102.888,"end":4107.993,"text":"會請這個發言委員不要繼續再質詢以上第一位我們請呃陳廷輝委員呃謝謝主席齁我們請國發會的處委請國外留主委還有我們次長經濟部次長來經濟部何次長"},{"start":4128.832,"end":4155.884,"text":"我想會把兩位邀請上來首先就是針對我們的新創產業還有扶植中小企業其實我比較重視的是我們台南的產業新創產業剛剛我們主席有說南部真的讓大家感受到的是剛剛所報告的資料這麼多可是如果資料列舉出來可能重心都在中北部"},{"start":4156.804,"end":4178.124,"text":"那中南部會相對的失掉很多的機會因為在比較當中所以我要拜託就說會診一下把台南的扶植的新創產業還有台南的扶植中小企業是不是可以送一份報告到我的辦公室"},{"start":4179.165,"end":4198.448,"text":"因為如果沒有這樣子要求你們把每一個地方區塊出來可能你們看到的是CPI認為說有啊我都有把錢發出去啊我都有把錢運用出去啊可是實質上並沒有均衡"},{"start":4199.901,"end":4219.807,"text":"這是很重要的也是每次我們在質詢我們希望不論是國發會不論是經濟部當我們在扶植中小企業或是新創產業或是我們的國發基金我們在運用的時候我們是不是可以把眼睛放在中南部"},{"start":4221.004,"end":4237.154,"text":"尤其臺南有很多是隱形產業,這些隱形產業都是靠自己苦幹實幹,一步一腳印,辛辛苦苦從過去,你覺得聽過他們說,過去在手頂端的時候,是自己站在腳上嗎?"},{"start":4246.816,"end":4265.184,"text":"當時可能他們連一句英文都不會講可是他們就這樣拼出來但是當他們把成績拿回來之後創造我們台灣經濟的產值我們卻是在這關鍵的時刻在轉型的時候常常忘了他們"},{"start":4266.676,"end":4294.266,"text":"這就是我們現在在我們台南很多隱形產業他們的心聲所以我們要拜託當我們有這麼多量能剛剛所唸出來的所列舉出來的我們的經費有我們預算有可是我們要問的是給了我們台南多少給了我們台南的新創產業還有中小企業多少"},{"start":4295.878,"end":4318.36,"text":"這個還是我們要的所以拜託我們的主委還有我們的次長麻煩把我們台南被扶植的新創產業還有中小企業一份資料給我辦公室好的委員我們會做那您剛才提的心聲我們也聽到了我想我們會做一系列的讓南部可以感受到我們政府的誠意跟努力起碼資訊要對腾"},{"start":4321.055,"end":4346.586,"text":"資訊的公開而且得到的第一手一定要大家是同一時間同一個平台否則每一次當台南接到的時候永遠就是北部已經申請了、中部已經申請了等到我們要提出申請,不會啊因為我們的預算是有限的都是他們申請完"},{"start":4348.393,"end":4364.665,"text":"然後我們提出申請來不及了已經被申請一空這個是非常要不得的這個再拜託主委跟我們的次長那我要再請教我們的這個主委沙崙AI產業園區"},{"start":4367.615,"end":4391.944,"text":"這個部分其實我們知道現在在我們的沙崙我們結合了資安智慧科技研發大樓綠能科技示範場域中央研究院南部院區周邊半導體的S廊帶甚至還結合了南科管理局負責的嘉義橋頭屏東等等的園區智慧複合樓群可是"},{"start":4392.964,"end":4415.657,"text":"我們現在希望他能夠成為大南方的AI產業發展基地但是我們試問這個是結合國發會國發會是一開始的know-how可是現在丟出去的是由我們的國科會、經濟部、數位部對不對一開始know-how是我們"},{"start":4416.656,"end":4437.809,"text":"是的,我們進行規劃對,規劃是我們可是現在丟出去我們現在座落在國科、經濟、數位360億預計智慧、科技、大南方、產業、生態推動方案整個360億那我要試問諸位請問國科會跟經濟部跟數位部誰當leader?"},{"start":4445.552,"end":4465.794,"text":"誰當Leader來整合360億沒有Leader整合各自為政編列到各地方編列到各部會之後請問他的量能跟管控誰來組長主委你們有沒有思考到這一點"},{"start":4467.142,"end":4493.35,"text":"我覺得您提了一個很好的點我這邊我們會來針對這幾個大的開發案S兩代的大開發案我們可能會來考慮一下一個機制也許我們會定期集合各部會來做檢討主委那我們目前是研考會是我們的管考會有在做例行性的管理管考跟平台之間互相的聯繫互相的整合對"},{"start":4494.21,"end":4509.738,"text":"其實一個重要的計畫重點是在整合不是各自為政如果各自為政做出來的會變世不像有這些預算但是沒有辦法發揮充分的效力"},{"start":4510.658,"end":4529.397,"text":"這是我們擔心的所以主委這個部分沙崙AI產業園區如何能夠擴展到智慧科技大南方產業生態系推動這是我們的重點也是我們的關鍵還有後壁蘭花園區也就是現在花卉產業創新園區這個都是我們的公建計畫"},{"start":4533.001,"end":4556.343,"text":"我們的工建計畫目前都還在由農業部現在行政院退回農業部請他救園區的人力因為有可能會有機關編制的調整所以這個部分都是我們在未來工建計畫非常重要的那速度呢?時間呢?進度呢?這個是由誰在掌控?"},{"start":4558.263,"end":4585.51,"text":"目前這個的話是要願送到我們國安會我們才會進行審核啦對啊已經審核啦但是審核之後現在又退回行政院行政院又退回農業部啊對沒錯就是您講的就是對於人力的部分是啊那誰在掌控這個時間點我們空有公建計畫結果每一次我們問進度的時候有!現在行政院有!現在退到農業部"},{"start":4586.73,"end":4604.199,"text":"重點是誰在追這個進度再來還有案內隱事隱成這個也是啊案內隱成也是啊我們現在計畫都很大重點是誰在追進度沒有"},{"start":4605.066,"end":4623.634,"text":"每次我們電話一打聯絡的時候然後A推B、B推C然後最後就是還在盒背當中其實合理的話應該是由提案的單位他自己要把整個進度都要掌握得很好才對他沒有辦法因為他送上去之後只能苦苦"},{"start":4624.594,"end":4649.847,"text":"等著你們的時間所以主委我會提出這個部分就是說未來我們有很多的公建計畫未來我們很多大型的建設我們希望一定要有一個所謂監督者掌控者主委這個部分再麻煩一下謝謝謝謝委員謝謝沈廷輝委員請回座下位諮詢請林大華委員"},{"start":4663.226,"end":4690.122,"text":"主委好這個幾個問題本席針對高鐵偏鄉、隧道都接不到訊息特別在我們高雄的輕軌、捷運、偏鄉更是收不到訊息那到底政府您一直講說你要推動5G你的預算現在是執行的狀況本席就是今天跟你討論這個重點"},{"start":4691.963,"end":4701.954,"text":"而且這個國產5G基站的補助是不是淪為泡影呢?第一個問題主委為什麼我們要推動5G呢?這主要是為了通訊的進步跟時代的需求尤其是5G主要是它的訊號比較穩定而且它的lag時間非常短對什麼有益?"},{"start":4713.646,"end":4735.115,"text":"他主要是 最主要的 任哪些產業有益 任哪些領域有益好 就是不允許有lag跟失誤的 像譬如說醫療產業的 遠距醫療 或者是在重要的這個通訊上面 這些都是很重要的 尤其是對產業的升級 對產業的這個AI智慧化有沒有幫忙"},{"start":4737.56,"end":4748.307,"text":"整個5G跟5G的一個環境他會有一定程度的協助當然協助是必要對我要解決地獄行人地獄有沒有可以根本的解決呢"},{"start":4751.194,"end":4761.045,"text":"5G這個是會有一定協助但是他的建制因為比較主要是他的波比較短所以他建制量會比較大就是關鍵到說你要不要推5G啊好既然你說5G對產業5G對我們這個行人地域可以有根本解決的方案好那我們看我們怎麼推"},{"start":4772.037,"end":4788.456,"text":"好本席在3月6號的時候有一些質詢那也發現到國發會作業是非常積極但是我們還是等不到真5G在我們NCC當中跟部署發布的編列預算是非常積極但是要求品質是非常的消極簡單講"},{"start":4791.019,"end":4797.001,"text":"我們花了多少錢5G整個公建這個4年計劃分兩期101到100到101這錢110跟111、112跟113那110跟111我們就是做什麼事情要花了"},{"start":4814.656,"end":4819.22,"text":"我們總共編224.4億好現在呢到去年為止花了187億那您認為有花到真5G嗎我讓你知道沒有對在部分地區現在是5G有5G但是部分地區現在看起來還是沒有是假5G是在4G的模擬系統我們認定它為5G是嗎"},{"start":4839.98,"end":4859.55,"text":"也就是我們的這個DSS的系統這是4G的虛擬系統的4G的系統然後呢我們變成說它是5G可是真的5G的國產你要達到產業的申請你都要解決行人地獄你的5G叫真5G是要在歐元的情況之下好所以主委你現在在收爛攤子"},{"start":4861.794,"end":4890.481,"text":"你的124.4億到去年已經花了187億我們做到現在人民所檢視的就是說我的捷運、高鐵、隧道部分的偏鄉為什麼訊號還是不穩定還是出現網路斷訊呢如果我已經花了200我已經花了187億了要建置5G了理論上我的高鐵、隧道這是最普及人民、全國老百姓最在意的"},{"start":4891.769,"end":4918.011,"text":"好那呢這邊呢今年呢就剩下了67.44億好主委您看一下這222.4億你花了187億要作為做到真5G可是你們沒有你們是在假在4G的系統之下去做泛5G的系統可是偏偏的我這個泛5G的系統真的要做5G的時候歐元的時候是嫁接不上的這句話你認同嗎"},{"start":4920.968,"end":4940.224,"text":"目前的確是有改善空間我自己自己有體會不是改善空間是根本沒有辦法你的是根本沒有辦法嫁接主委你的認知這個你要很清楚如果還有改善表示技術上是可以調整事實上是不行的5G的Oren是要真的系統你的222.4億你之前180億不是要去補助那個這個所謂的4G系統的"},{"start":4945.188,"end":4949.551,"text":"是要補助整個完整的建制這就是國內的電信政策錯誤的選擇嘛我們選擇了YMES導致了整個3G、4G國產的崩盤現在就看5G我能不能國產或者我們在5G照這樣你沒有趕快的調整政策方向的話那表示你現在補助的剩下的67.44億的目標是什麼是促進國產品牌欸"},{"start":4971.244,"end":4984.782,"text":"我的國產真的能夠做到真5G喔能夠去執行all run喔可是根本沒有辦法加捐你的4G的系統喔所以你的67.44億理論上你花不出去你沒有辦法核銷的主委"},{"start":4986.864,"end":5013.025,"text":"這我還針對還正式的去做這個所知我4月8號還做了所知你們說呢這個現在112年跟113年的政策目標5G是要推廠國產品牌然後我再問4月24號我再問然後你們回答了國產5G微型左下角主委看清楚你們回答了國產5G微型基地現在在尚未支援DSS表示你5G微型是根本沒有辦法嫁接的所以你67.4G是不能執行的"},{"start":5015.488,"end":5016.554,"text":"好本期具體要求"},{"start":5019.7,"end":5048.855,"text":"下一頁我具體要求就是針對你現在67.44億本席要求你們先在協調速發部跟信息優化所有高鐵沿線我不要暫停沿線跟捷運偏鄉尤其是我高雄捷運高雄偏鄉這些都是路線老化訊息不良我要講的是非暫停一定要是沿線的訊號一個月提出具體時程針對這67.41本席了解你已經花了一半就這一半"},{"start":5049.675,"end":5071.67,"text":"來解決我高雄的捷運的沿線跟這個高雄的偏鄉以及你整個高鐵從北到南、從南到北都足夠一個月提出具體執政可以嗎?可以啊好 那我們也正式的您提出來之後我們就正式的辦會刊好 那就謝謝您希望在一個月後那您的質詢希望能夠公告國人好 謝謝謝謝林大夫委員下一位質詢請邱毅英委員"},{"start":5093.482,"end":5096.531,"text":"好謝謝主席我先請一下經濟部次長請何市長"},{"start":5103.335,"end":5131.676,"text":"委員好市長這個我想颱風剛過那我還是要先請教您一下這個山陀而颱風造成高雄大概超過15萬戶的停電我想大概你們經濟部也應該有全程掌控那首先我還是要表達對於台電的所有的工作同仁這三天以來不眠不休啊到今天早上到剛剛為止還在大樹還在修補最後零星的幾戶"},{"start":5133.416,"end":5151.671,"text":"次長您看一下這個是這一次臺電跨區搶修的工作大寮臨源算是這一次停電受創最嚴重的地區那當然總統這個昨天到了金山萬里去勘栽那媒體的報導說總統說電器購買跟貸款最高補助50萬元"},{"start":5157.395,"end":5176.812,"text":"所以很多人就想說為什麼金山萬里可以補助電器那我們高雄這一次風災受損也嚴重為什麼沒有這個相對剝奪感是很重的那到底這個補助是怎麼來的因為現在還有一些消息說連家具都可以補助"},{"start":5178.732,"end":5198.66,"text":"連鐵卷門都可以補助連鋁門窗都可以補助真的是這樣嗎可是我上了你們經濟部的網站去看這個補助內容跟過去的災後的補助是一樣的嘛而且那個補助是最高是50萬所以你每一個品項都有它的補助最高上限"},{"start":5199.48,"end":5219.501,"text":"其實你們是不是希望趁這個時候把一些老舊的電器汰換換成節能的可是這樣的簡短的談話其實就會造成很大很大的誤解啊次長我請教你我剛剛舉的那些例子有哪些地方是不對的你可不可以利用這個時間完整或者是簡單清楚的說明"},{"start":5220.226,"end":5242.768,"text":"好 謝謝委員那這個這次的補助分兩個部分一個部分就貸款的補助那貸款的補助大概就是我們會比照楷米台風那就是針對小微企業、中小企業以及有稅級登記的這個企業最高補助50萬然後補貼這個利息全額半年"},{"start":5243.708,"end":5269.26,"text":"所以這個是第一項利息補貼的部分那第二項就是剛剛委員垂詢的就是一些家電的補助這應該是精準講應該是節能的補助節能設備的補助那其實我們知道高雄很多的商圈也受到影響我們其實都有把它納進來好 次長如果是這樣我覺得我希望經濟部能夠再發一些更精準的"},{"start":5270.22,"end":5288.257,"text":"文字或者是圖卡包括給各縣市政府包括高雄市政府都必須要有這樣的精準的訊息提供另外你們剛剛講到的這些補助都是補助給商圈但是有很多的受災戶其實是一般的民眾"},{"start":5289.478,"end":5315.424,"text":"比如說像在大寮我們到昨天下午一直還在協調大寮還有很多人是停電而且是停電大概超過48小時以上如果對於這些家戶因為停電所造成的不便或損失是不是經濟部也能夠研議給他們有一些減免不管是電費或者是其他的這一些稅制上的減免這個是不是能夠請經濟部下去研議"},{"start":5317.418,"end":5325.968,"text":"好 我們再來研究一下好 這個我在這邊也是具體建議啦那請次長您把這個帶回去讓經濟部去做研議好嗎好 那我接下來請國發會請國發會就位"},{"start":5331.282,"end":5359.193,"text":"來 主委 這個剛剛您談到很多未來的這個發展的這些契機國發會在8月份的景氣燈號再亮紅燈你們說的分數大概39分是逼近了新高但是我覺得台灣現在大家都一直在關注AI產業包括主委你們談的內容很多都是跟AI相關的但是台灣應該不只AI我們要關注的地方也不只AI"},{"start":5362.355,"end":5382.85,"text":"公總發表2024白皮書認為產業失衡加劇,現在有比過去他們一直在講缺水缺電更嚴重的問題就是缺工缺人才我們剛剛講到台電的維修,其實台電也嚴重短缺維修的人力"},{"start":5384.231,"end":5408.948,"text":"這個都是不爭的事實當然國發會一直在談到這個外補人力主委您看一下這個是也是勞動部發表的今年10月底還比7月底的人力需求竟增加5.6萬人10月就比7月還要增加5.6萬人請問這些人力從哪裡來"},{"start":5413.496,"end":5433.266,"text":"主委你們有沒有跟勞動部討論過或者是說國發會有沒有一套策略勞動部我們在我們的定期的這個會議裡面勞動部會負責在主要是勞工的部分那是因為是以他為主政單位我們只有在那個會議裡面做檢疫的溝通並沒有談那麼細"},{"start":5435.508,"end":5455.224,"text":"這個我覺得是這樣啦國發會其實很多東西是主導國家發展所以比如說剛剛陳寗飛委員問到你們問到您的那個問題誰要來主責當然是國發會要主責啊結果你說叫提案的單位來主責我現在就問你嘛人力短缺的問題整個人力配置的規劃"},{"start":5456.645,"end":5471.221,"text":"當然也是國發會要來主責啊勞動部是依照這個現實的發展各產業的需求去釋放但是整體人力的配置規劃這當然是國發會要來主責是的 整體是由我們在在規劃沒有錯這個講到中階人力"},{"start":5474.865,"end":5477.889,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5490.294,"end":5504.35,"text":"這一些人要從哪裡來?人要從哪裡補?你們現在提到的有一些部分說比如說靠大專院校梅和喬外申從事中間的工作或者是這些移工讓他久用服務"},{"start":5505.868,"end":5523.9,"text":"但是主委我還是看不出你現階段我們能夠多久之內補足這些人力這個當然是這個所謂的外國專業人才的纜財僱用辦法我們推了這麼多年現在也不過才五萬多人那"},{"start":5527.471,"end":5536.204,"text":"這個國發會說2028年要增加到12萬人是2028年增加12萬人呢還是從以前到2028年累計要有12萬人"},{"start":5538.804,"end":5564.202,"text":"就是從現在開始2024年到2028年要有12萬人要有12萬嘛,好,4年之內要有12萬那4年之內如何有12萬你這個是全球精英喔,就是這個專業人才喔但是我跟您談到如果再加上剛剛的這些中階技術人力短缺的部分加起來所需要的人力比其實是相對多的"},{"start":5565.803,"end":5577.169,"text":"國發會應該要擔起責任去做所謂的人力短缺、缺工缺財的這一些整體勞動力的配置主委您同意我的建議嗎"},{"start":5580.768,"end":5599.429,"text":"整體配置的確是你不能讓勞動部一個人去決定他營造業要放多少人服務業要放多少人教育要放多少人所以我覺得你們應該把這個整合起來針對台灣整體的缺工"},{"start":5600.37,"end":5626.031,"text":"缺財的問題做一個整體性的盤點主席已經站起來了這個是我們已經有負起責任在做整體的盤點也包括勞動人口的需求跟利益整體盤點包括整個政策上面應該如何放寬跟落實好不好這個有機會我們再詳談這個我們可以來往這方向來邱委員感謝邱委員請主委回座下一位"},{"start":5629.777,"end":5655.663,"text":"這個秋元委員質詢是本會的楷模這個賴慧榮比照辦理下一位質詢請賴慧榮發言時間8分鐘6加2好謝謝主席請那個經濟部何次長經濟部何次長好次長先請教一下高雄的電力全部恢復了嗎跟委員報告今天的凌晨2點"},{"start":5657.392,"end":5660.997,"text":"三十五分左右齁大概整個都已經復電了全數復電了對復電應該這樣講齁就是說可能加護啦齁"},{"start":5669.397,"end":5687.853,"text":"好 那個再查清楚啦齁但是我認為其實到了昨天下午的時候我看你們最新的報出來林園、仁武、大寮跟大樹還有818戶啦齁那剛剛次長說清晨已經全部復電但我講的是經過了4天才復電啦齁我認為其實還是有努力的一個空間啦齁"},{"start":5688.453,"end":5703.74,"text":"市長有沒有什麼樣的精進的一些方式減少這些人民受停電的一個困擾是當然我們現在去檢討這一次因為是風力非常大這個17級風那許多的電感還有因為路數倒塌去影響到整個"},{"start":5706.563,"end":5720.983,"text":"這個電力的供給那所以未來我們也會檢討就是說這個電感是不是要一致或是說可能樹木修剪的部分可能要請地方會不會走向區域朝向地下化的方式來處理地下化的部分因為要考量"},{"start":5721.383,"end":5736.897,"text":"考量跟考量幾個因素啦吼那我會請台電我跟那個常議校你看這一次的林園的那個風災17級的強風把電線桿吹斷了吼港區是17但也許他在13、14級不知道但是他可以把一條電桿吹斷那"},{"start":5739.319,"end":5756.433,"text":"過去在2017年的時候我們做了一些防災型的一些地下化所以那時候沿海地區我們做了很多包括小港前鎮包括旗津都在做那其實只要做了就會產生比較好的一個效果所以恢復的速度就相當快如果沒有電的話就沒辦法用水水沒辦法進來"},{"start":5757.734,"end":5778.742,"text":"沒有電的話 抽水機也無法運作 淹水的風險就增加那所以我真的認為在沿海地區特別是這樣的狀況下的時候 其實要思考防災型的這個地下化颱風幾乎 台灣是每年幾乎都遇到的問題像這樣子 遇到這樣的強台、中台直接進到了台灣進來的時候 那幾乎非常大"},{"start":5779.102,"end":5800.684,"text":"那如果這個遇失可能發生的狀況的話我認為其實未來應該在朝這個方向來推過去的時候我們你看到小港醫院旁的超商這個全部掃進去這個超商整個像被炸過一樣包括貨櫃被吹起來我想影片都有看到整個被風吹起來包括這個一個里長的服務處整個全部掀掉這是其中一個很多類似這樣的"},{"start":5802.305,"end":5815.43,"text":"這種強風的裝修對地方造成的災害相當那停電如果我們盡量走向地下化的時候可以大幅的減少我希望經濟部今天部長沒有來我希望經濟部回去思考一下重新跟院裡面來報在2017年到2020年的時候"},{"start":5819.592,"end":5842.111,"text":"我們有提了一個70億的一個防災型的電纜地下化蘇院長過去在平和公路也做了地下化也很好的一個成效我們希望做防災的角度對沿岸沿海地區受風面大的地區你有注意到幾乎最受創最重的幾乎都是靠海的這邊的第一線在擋那個風的都是這一線這個部分優先來做處理可以嗎"},{"start":5843.412,"end":5870.344,"text":"我們就會請台電這邊來研議好不好我請研議啦好不好兩個禮拜內給我一份報告好不好就是說能不能規劃朝這個方向我當然知道台電財務上我也希望在接下來的兩千億的預算支持台電之後該做的事情還是要持續來做好不好過去這2017年到2020年這個我認為70億的成效相當的好我希望持續來做但是做當然以沿海地區就是比較受到第一個受封面最強的"},{"start":5872.025,"end":5899.246,"text":"這個有做跟沒做差很多啦這次看從林源大寮整個被折斷我認為那個其實是需要繼續進行的好不好是請兩個禮拜演繹給我一份報告好接下來我想請一下那個國發會好嗎那個主委國發會的主委這一次的部分其實重創啦17級的強風台灣大概也是創了有史以來的紀錄高雄港有沒有什麼樣的專案的重建或者是對人民的專案的補助計畫會來推動的"},{"start":5902.022,"end":5902.363,"text":"呃"},{"start":5902.83,"end":5931.852,"text":"因為過去這部分都會我們都會有這個我這樣好了我直接建議主委因為這一次地方政府其實受創很重包括現在還有很多的教室甚至很多校舍甚至很多的一些基礎建設受到了很大的影響這個陸續都會出來了那我希望國發會作為整個內閣的小團隊裡面的一個大腦的角色我希望你整體去整理一下思考一下在兩個禮拜內提出來是不是有一個整體性的"},{"start":5932.532,"end":5959.918,"text":"硬體的、整體的對於地方政府的協助包括這些的重建的規劃甚至於整個思考每個縣市的補貼方式、補助方式不太一樣兩個禮拜內是不是整體研議一下給我一份報告好嗎?好 這個我我下午會跟院報告好不好 因為現在災情才陸續出來而已因為有些東西受創我今天看了有幾個學校部分現在今天因為學校陸續傳回來了一些"},{"start":5961.798,"end":5978.274,"text":"你剛剛我看到這個強風這麼強的狀況屋頂貨櫃連整個都吹掉了所以其實受創甚至有些校園也受到影響我希望做一個整合性的統合的工作就一個專案的部分來做整體的好不好兩個禮拜先跟院長報告一下給我們一份報告跟規劃好嗎"},{"start":5979.235,"end":6004.586,"text":"好的好接下來我想要問一下這個剛剛其實我看你的報告裡面明年預估今年基礎產業達到4%我也相當的包括我們現在的出口各方面都表現相好那我想問的是如果我們現在的總預算遲遲無法來付為來審查對這樣的經濟發展會不會產生影響這一定會有一定的影響怎麼樣的影響如果遲遲無法進行的話對於"},{"start":6005.919,"end":6020.62,"text":"因為我們各項政策會難以推動如果它延遲的話我們的推動進度也會受到影響那會有什麼樣的重大影響如果遲遲無法進行這些事項的話如果遲遲無法進行的話呢應該是我們所有的計畫都無法實施吧"},{"start":6021.206,"end":6041.618,"text":"那所以包括這些經濟成長率等等都可能就不一定能夠達到這樣的目標是嗎對我們就會有困難就會有困難我希望這件事情還是要清楚的跟那個就是說立法院認為還是要進來做審議有意見的該凍結該刪除的可以來討論但是全部把擋住讓整個建設無法來推動我想這不是國家之福了是的謝謝"},{"start":6042.418,"end":6056.931,"text":"再來我想請教一下我看到你的報告裡面另外有一個是這個到中歐、中東包括跟中東歐的部分做一些雙邊的合作我看到蔡英文總統這個月份要到捷克去做參訪"},{"start":6058.232,"end":6078.664,"text":"我也認為其實在我們裡面如果國家對我們是友善的我們應該更積極來推動就是整體的國家利益是一體的那如果比如說像捷克是一個很好的突破點的時候他對我們非常友善的時候其實我認為在未來經貿上應該有更多的合作讓我們的整個國家的整體是整合在一起發展的主委認同這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":6079.384,"end":6101.932,"text":"是的,因為我自己也去,利用暑假期間也去了一趟捷克、立陶宛這些地方的確兩國的關係目前是大家關係非常好,我們都可以見到最高層的也當然一定是非常好,才有可能卸任的總統有辦法用到這樣得到高度的禮遇方式去那我也希望對我們香港友善的國家,我們在經貿上給予更多的合作希望讓兩國之間的情誼更好是,這些都在進行中"},{"start":6102.432,"end":6123.679,"text":"最後請教一下日本在今年有宣布的四大金融特區那台灣現在有亞洲資產管理中心高雄現在權利在爭取當中?諸位高雄有沒有機會來爭取到?第一個這個是監管會的權責但是就我了解高雄因為也具備了相當得天獨厚的條件這也在他的選項之一"},{"start":6124.466,"end":6149.547,"text":"所以主委大力來促成好不好高雄所具備包括現在所有的一些條件的部分不管是在整個資金包括我們的經濟發展包括所有的其實高雄的雅灣區具備相當好一個條件那東京我們看到日本其實有四個地點在同步在做啦那我認為其實高雄絕對也是一個很適當的一個地點我希望主委大力來協助來支持好嗎好一定好謝謝謝謝財政委員"},{"start":6151.608,"end":6160.311,"text":"這個亞洲資產中心在南高雄也可以北高雄也可以啊哎 主委回座 那個市長回座下一位質詢 請張啟凱發言資金6加2請主委叫次長"},{"start":6181.46,"end":6204.093,"text":"請劉書偉跟何市長委員早注意告次長電價調漲以後是不是會變成萬物起漲今天通中央新聞是台鐵說因為台鐵喔"},{"start":6207.042,"end":6233.004,"text":"因為台電漲了台鐵的電價之後台鐵今年一年阿會增加2.28億的這個預算所以現在漲完之後換台鐵漲人民了這變成一個惡性循環了台電漲台鐵台鐵漲人民我現在請教諸位這對民生會不會很大的一個衝擊而且現在是怎麼樣是國營事業帶頭漲嗎好 注意"},{"start":6236.249,"end":6243.665,"text":"這樣人民會不會太苦了人民要剝好幾層皮嗎?電價漲了漲完之後台北先漲現在可能其他國營事業跟著要漲"},{"start":6245.281,"end":6266.944,"text":"這人民怎麼辦?就我了解我們分兩個事情來看我們自己在評估因為他這次是有範圍的成長對CPI的影響我們評估下來整個一年期的期間大概是0.2那台鐵的部分台鐵我踩個煞車好不好你這個話已經講好幾次了今天是最新的進度我現在問你"},{"start":6269.126,"end":6294.768,"text":"臺鐵因為增加了2.28億的經費預算他現在準備要送到他的22號送到他董事會他把他的臺鐵的票價要漲那這樣人民不就這第一個衝擊到物價對不對人民去搭臺鐵不就是要多付錢了嗎?就我了解臺鐵的漲價他是因為29年沒有漲那這是其中一個因素而已那他因為29年沒有漲所以所以看新聞一下"},{"start":6296.465,"end":6324.18,"text":"二十九年當然是一個因素啊那他現在提出去的是把這個新的帳價又把它放進去那你們做個引路,除了你們去爭取這個不要轉嫁到人民身上可不可以,如果照你講的能不能不要轉嫁到人民身上這2.28億我想經濟部在這裡喔,他也許...先講公報啦,這個你去啦我等一下問經濟部,經濟部的國營稅很多嘛,等一下問台水我先講一下齁,台水今年4月1號"},{"start":6326.246,"end":6336.558,"text":"長電價以後一年增加多少?5.62億那你現在又漲喔這次台水也是有影響的喔台水會增加3.56億那我現在今天的執行非常清楚"},{"start":6338.342,"end":6358.635,"text":"臺電漲了臺鐵,臺鐵不要轉嫁到人民身上來。第二個,一樣,臺水增加了3.56億,也不能漲到人民身上來。主委,我請問你啦,因為交通部嘛,交通部你不就去講,我等一下問經濟部,臺水,還有經濟部主管的國營事業,絕對不能轉嫁到人民身上去,好不好?"},{"start":6359.355,"end":6385.262,"text":"委員第一個我一定會去轉達給交通部第二個事情我也跟您說明一下這個還是要看台鐵的輸贏人次他如果輸贏人次是兩億的話攤下來是一個人才一塊錢所以還是要看實際的狀況那我還是會去表達從人民的角度去看這個事情人民的合估你台電上了價你還講說沒有衝擊行政院長跟你們都講說沒有衝擊到民生沒有衝擊到物價對不對這沒有衝擊到"},{"start":6387.574,"end":6402.95,"text":"我去搭台鐵我就影響到啦怎麼沒有勒這物價不會跟著漲嗎這兩個層面都是衝擊喔我掏錢我本來搭台鐵的因為你漲了電價之後有要多付錢嘛對不對所以這常識嘛對沒問題嘛這常識嘛這邏輯沒問題嘛然後第二個因為國營世界漲了價之後"},{"start":6408.717,"end":6433.493,"text":"有沒有帶動物價?怎麼樣影響到民生呢?這個其實還是要看影響的多寡啦那我們自己在看的話在工業部門是2%左右那當然有些多耗電的會到10%那其實它的影響並沒有那麼大啦那尤其它這次有限定範圍嘛所以實際上我想我會去溝通然後看看它到底影響有多大那有必要我會我們會來做一個整合性的溝通部門"},{"start":6435.594,"end":6452.741,"text":"這個責任重大,人民會不會繼續太苦下去,要看你了所以你現在一方面是交通部那邊你要溝通所有國營事業,財政部其實都哪有啦那等一下,經濟部這邊,次長在,我在這邊,次長海水,因為這次的挑戰會增加3.56億"},{"start":6454.773,"end":6473.9,"text":"那台水應該不會漲價,因為這樣漲價吧?目前台水沒有漲價的規劃沒有齁?是好,那我們今天能不能做一個簡單的一個結論這次台電漲了電價,所有的國營、事業不能夠因為漲了、增加了這個電價轉嫁到人民的身上兩位都要說承諾好不好?"},{"start":6476.494,"end":6499.526,"text":"兩個都要承諾喔不要過幾天這個馬上見真章喔22號臺電臺鐵如果開了會長的話人民就找你們算帳了立法院找你們算帳阿第二個臺水剛剛次長講的臺水沒起嘛對不對所有經濟部的所有的國營事業若因為臺電漲了電價有增加這個我們到追究責任OK好我們先做這個簡單結論來我來看另外一個來"},{"start":6502.19,"end":6516.588,"text":"次長你先請回我問一下那個諸位國發基金啊以前投資都是投資股權結果最近變成有些專案投資啊連影片都投資了我們看一下下一張在111年的時候啊"},{"start":6518.117,"end":6537.902,"text":"那時候專案投資電影或者是影片只有兩部投資了3500萬結果到112年的時候一下子跳到多少34部發了國發基金4億7495萬文化是一個國家的根本你要投資文化我沒有意見文化讓一個國家偉大"},{"start":6539.994,"end":6559.96,"text":"可是不能夠偏頗國發基金這個投資應該是以這個公司為主對不對盡量少是影片我們看下一張最近有一個引起很大爭議的這是不是又是超市的翻版以小博大之前前8年我們在抗議什麼總資額200萬的小吃店可以取得16.5億的快篩50億的50萬的超市獲得農業部10億的大訂單今天又有一個很離譜的有一家公司啊"},{"start":6569.172,"end":6577.654,"text":"他的持收的資本額不達86萬結果從我們國家搬了1.13億的投資包括國發基金都搬出來了"},{"start":6580.137,"end":6608.58,"text":"主委這個要好好檢討一下這個我們找文化部檢討過了一次跟您報告一下就是說他過去一次因為投資效益不好的時候他投了很多在專案上面然後呢創造了比較多的投資結果你講的是通案我在講的是這家公司一個持收資本額不到86萬的政府從文化部跟國發基金可以搬1.13億去投資嗎我給你看下一張來這個投資的什麼去拍這個叫做凌日攻擊"},{"start":6610.114,"end":6634.161,"text":"我們比一下好不好最近右邊這個臺灣三部曲導演過有名吧魏德勝左邊這個導演雖然也是有名可是跟魏德勝比起來羅景仁羅先生魏德勝以前有海角7號賽德克巴萊你看他這個本來金額多少總經費是45億喔結果國發基金要請國發基金去投資"},{"start":6639.482,"end":6662.722,"text":"本來還不願意的後來只投資了三千萬這個一般人的民眾會怎麼看這個事情這兩個當然是投資魏德勝這一邊阿台灣三部曲阿都是以台灣為題材阿這個是常識問題吧一定是右邊嘛為什麼左邊反而更多主委你看凌日攻擊這個被稱為綠色的這個不要說一定是什麼"},{"start":6664.335,"end":6681.492,"text":"什麼對民進黨是都好的可是我要問喔兩個對比之下投資台灣的題材為什麼一個零日供給國發基金那些投資4170萬高達16.09%這是到目前為止喔國發基金所有的投資裡面一個片子最多的"},{"start":6682.353,"end":6708.112,"text":"這人民不會有意見嗎?好,謝謝委員這個我會找文化部來瞭解主委我問你一個更直接的我問一個最後的問題馬上好馬上好主委我一個最後的問題主委這個影片講的是兩岸戰爭我問你站在國家發展的角度我問在國家發展的角度如果外資要來投資去找了你你願意你敢找外資來看這個片子嗎?最後一句話最後一句話主委站在國家發展的角度"},{"start":6711.656,"end":6727.566,"text":"你說我是一個國外的資金要進來對不對我看了這個片子是未來投資還是不投資這個是我們委員會文化部執行的文化創意這是文化創意可是對國家發展你外資就進不來阿因為講是兩岸戰爭阿這個你國發經濟還去投資我在事後跟你報告國發、國發、國發經濟不打自己嘴巴嗎"},{"start":6734.21,"end":6736.612,"text":"主委請回座下位質詢請鄭振淺鄭振淺之後休息10分鐘主席我想請一下劉主委劉主委"},{"start":6767.369,"end":6792.149,"text":"委員長主委好我想一樣針對國發基金投資的問題繼續往下問因為剛剛張其萊委員他這邊提到說國發基金投資一個特定的一個影片那投這麼多的錢那因為你這邊有特別提到你業報裡面有特別提到說去年我們為國家創造288億的那個獲利那我覺得你也特別提到了說要強化投資管理機制包括"},{"start":6793.19,"end":6815.567,"text":"投錢的機制、強化投錢的機制的管理還有投後的一個管理還有強化退場機制的執行都沒有錯嘛這是你在業報裡面很清楚講到的一個部分所以對於你那個投錢的評估的一個狀態尤其像針對剛剛張琦海委員提的那部分先給本席一個很清楚的狀態國發基金當時怎麼樣去做這樣的一個投錢的一個評估好不好"},{"start":6818.581,"end":6841.527,"text":"針對剛剛張啟臺委員提的那個案的部分後續也請給本席一個很完整的一個投錢評估的一個分析報告好不好可以可以齁好然後我在這邊問一下齁主委因為國發基金要配合國家產業發展策略嘛投資上的事業計畫都沒有問題那到去年底為止齁大概投資直接投資70家那投資的投入金額大概734億元我想這數字應該也沒有錯啦齁"},{"start":6843.627,"end":6871.041,"text":"那我就看到在整個投資先後當中的時候呢那近三年當中呢連續虧損的企業有20家那其中的時候我只看到有5家裡面有詳細的一個評估報告然後這5家裡面呢基本上就是國家基金如果是覺得他投資有些問題的時候應該要特別去關注可是我發現這5家裡面大部分都是破產的解散的、歇業的然後才提出檢討報告"},{"start":6872.202,"end":6891.279,"text":"那我就完全失去了事先監督公司改善或提前退場或保障投資這樣的一個可能性所以我想說剩下的15家的部分的時候呢我們是不是國家經濟這邊有一個很詳細的一個評估報告那是不是有持續的一個追蹤各位請主委回答一下"},{"start":6893.288,"end":6915.448,"text":"我來了以後我發現我事實上國發基金在投後管理上面是比較被動一點那我們現在其實我們開始正在改善投後管理的部分那我們會在但是這裡面也牽扯一個問題我們現在有1000多個投資案但是我們的人員不到30位目前的人員不到30位那1000多個投資案每年還要處理270多個投資案"},{"start":6917.63,"end":6945.511,"text":"直接到我們這裡主委因為你們的業務該怎麼去做其實就是這麼去做要投資這麼多公司一定是要有能力去做投錢的管理跟投後的一個管理那才會去投嘛不可能隨便錢就灑出去因為國發基金不是善財同質所以我看到這裡面這15家裡面呢有兩家變成正常戶其中有一家趙遠我之前有質詢過趙遠就是一個很離譜的一個情況他整個投入之後呢投資兩億"},{"start":6946.932,"end":6960.737,"text":"多元進去之後然後虧損到了1.6億元之後然後我們國發基金任列虧損欸?他就變正常戶了那其他還在追蹤列管的部分是比這情況更糟"},{"start":6962.057,"end":6977.638,"text":"不是的是這樣因為他已經換成了環球晶的股票被併掉了嘛所以環球晶因為環球晶的營運是正常的所以他才會依據環球晶的現在因為持有是環球晶的股票所以呢他才會列定為正常戶"},{"start":6978.482,"end":6991.82,"text":"那我想問一下針對趙遠這個部分的時候我們之後有沒有去追究當時我們在108年決定投入之後的時候呢被拖了一年多才開始有讀懂進駐"},{"start":6993.782,"end":7018.813,"text":"當中顯然有很大的一個行政的一個瑕疵請問一下主委有沒有去追蹤這件事情委員您上次有沒有追究他的責任您跟我提了以後我大概有進行了瞭解我們現在做了幾項重大改革第一個就是我們在投資這些企業的時候當時它本身存在它的方向正確但是技能未必是夠所以我們現在增加三個委員做技術評估"},{"start":7020.713,"end":7040.542,"text":"還有我們會進行市場口碑評估多三個委員那我想再問一個問題多三個委員來做一些市場的評估可是對於投入、投後之後的管理有沒有真正去落實針對這15家公司包括現在Gogoro股價"},{"start":7041.582,"end":7045.123,"text":"有的有的,像剛剛委員我沒講完,其實我們現在針對當時那幾個問題,我們在投資合約裡面也開始明定了"},{"start":7064.367,"end":7092.294,"text":"就是說你要能夠讓我直接進入董事會我們才會接受第二個他有一些道德條款還有我們公司治理條款那至於頭後的部分呢我們現在以舉例來講如新我們已經進入一個評估是否要撤出的評估那呃勾勾樓呢我們目前呢是在有開始進行溝通因為我們並沒有我們並沒有董事席次在這裡面但是我們已經在找勾勾樓來討論跟內容那未來我們會找他的"},{"start":7093.154,"end":7114.385,"text":"這個接班團隊裡面來看他的未來的問題主委謝謝針對這其他的部分因為還有十幾家追蹤跟列管戶的時候你之後再給本席一個進一步詳細的一個評估報告他們目前的狀態好不好各家的一個狀態因為我接下來我要問的一個情況是大矽谷計劃大矽谷計劃的時候因為在10月1號的時候其實後來行政院合訂通過了"},{"start":7121.468,"end":7138.485,"text":"那核定通過了之後呢我就看到整個大細股計畫裡頭就是有很多那我們裡面特別提到了34次的AI這個字眼表示AI肯定很重要那你這邊也用了一個微笑曲線這個概念我先不講這微笑曲線它的內容怎麼樣子"},{"start":7139.286,"end":7165.283,"text":"那我直接把它給用了一個雷達圖把它給弄出來你把那幾個元素把它弄出來包括它的AI伺服器包括主機板包括散熱的部分晶圓代工、IC設計還有應用服務的部分整個綜合能力當中我們很清楚看到AI伺服器跟主機板硬體這邊我們台灣是很強的是很強的全球來說是很強的可是在整個AI當中的時候很大一個應用服務我們也提到了台灣只有1%"},{"start":7167.064,"end":7178.652,"text":"所以我要問的其實是我們大矽谷計畫裡面講到這麼多的AI的部分的時候那我們接下來針對AI應用服務的地方我們有沒有很具體的做法要怎麼樣來培植這一塊"},{"start":7180.794,"end":7193.302,"text":"AI應用服務的部分我們現在是會由這個速發部來主政那我這邊因為我過去個人的經驗接觸很深所以我有跟速發部聊過我們會來協助他就我們對產業的認知來做相關的推動"},{"start":7196.804,"end":7221.22,"text":"那這裡面最重要是人才跟制度我想我之前也跟委員報告過就是說臺灣現在的制度必須做一定的調整所以我們會來找工會來探討第二個人才的引進的部分我們將來會有兩個方案一個方案是引進進來第二個是設立海外發展組織你這部分之後再給我一個很詳細的部分我們怎麼樣去推來尤其怎麼樣去跟桃園大西湖計畫做結合那我這邊也有另外"},{"start":7222.26,"end":7236.136,"text":"一個部分就是我在看到我們就是主委這邊的一個報告針對中小企業的扶植政策裡面這邊有提到一個就是跟台灣大學成立台灣首個校友投資基金這個詳細的內容是怎麼樣子"},{"start":7238.959,"end":7268.179,"text":"他是我們主要是希望學校能夠成立基金然後呢讓教授跟這些博士生或是碩士生的研究成果國發基金這邊有沒有投入有沒有參與投入我們投三成校友投資七成這個部分因為坦白說像交大也有一個很完整的一個計劃沒錯沒錯那我們也希望說不要獨厚台大很多學校其實也都需要就是國發基金的一個支持好不好那這之後後續怎麼做也許也可能是一個詳細的做法"},{"start":7268.459,"end":7282.659,"text":"然後另外就是有一個針對海外新創基地東京跟矽谷要做他的條件是怎麼樣去成立的還有比方說我們之後要怎麼去運作然後是不是會有第三第四個這個"},{"start":7283.98,"end":7292.251,"text":"再給本席一個詳細的書面資料好的然後最後一個就是這裡面因為之前提到是52個產業園區7個科學園區可是合併出來是56個產業園區另外那4個是在哪什麼地方請再給本席詳細資料好的謝謝謝謝曾俊賢委員現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":7316.858,"end":7318.539,"text":"進行報告．進行報告．進行報告．"},{"start":7345.665,"end":7348.126,"text":"欸!是!欸!我這樣沒有用"},{"start":7906.454,"end":7908.155,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會。先為質詢請楊瓊英委員。謝主席,楊瓊英發言。請主委。請留主委。"},{"start":7929.461,"end":7947.906,"text":"對 我想我經常說國發會呢是我們國家的心臟跟頭腦非常的重要那因此呢一個國家必要的這個元素也就是那個人民所以今天我要跟你討論的是人口學的政策人口學政策"},{"start":7948.766,"end":7968.414,"text":"我們根據呢2023年新生額是135571人比較前一年我們少了3415年以我屬龍的我那一年總共將近41萬人我用這個數據來告訴你我們台灣的"},{"start":7973.427,"end":7993.753,"text":"這個出生額已經減少但是我更憂心的一點更憂心的一點也就是我們看到我們的新生額的這個死亡率是年年在上升是年年在上升2022年達到了千分之2.8"},{"start":7995.353,"end":8004.449,"text":"那創下了這15年來的最高而且虐兒的這個部分致死兒女的部分我們看到2021年"},{"start":8005.953,"end":8030.148,"text":"研究出來告訴我們2011年到2020年5月28號居家保姆於因幼兒的事故傷害我們統計了108筆的案件其中就有109位受害者118位被告那麼其中有69位受傷40位"},{"start":8031.389,"end":8051.243,"text":"死亡所以我們看到這樣的一個情況本期要請教國防會主委你就相關橫向的衛福部、教育部、勞動部、內政部、法務部這五個部會你們花了475億的公帑475億來作為社會安全網"},{"start":8059.108,"end":8072.712,"text":"那在因誘而事故傷害、死亡的這個新聞頻頻的在發生。諸位,你認為社會安全網的執行成效究竟是如何?請做說明。"},{"start":8079.551,"end":8092.741,"text":"成效的好壞要有前後期的比較因為我沒有前期的數字來比較我很難講他本期已經叫數字花了那麼多時間告訴你但是這個內容看起來是的確讓人覺得是比較讓人遺憾的數字這個是"},{"start":8100.718,"end":8124.202,"text":"本期再強調一次政府花了475億做社會安全網我再給你一個數字2019年到2023年全台約有12000名的兒童跟少年受虐那換句話說每一年約有20名的未成年人在家中受虐致死"},{"start":8125.148,"end":8139.333,"text":"大家都說政府要做我們人民的靠山政府繳了稅金你花了475億做成的這樣子的成效請你告訴我要怎麼樣去保護呢請就說明"},{"start":8145.523,"end":8171.633,"text":"這個我並不清楚那470幾億的預算實際內容但是我想這個這個減少售內額的話應該會要從整個社會環境的改善跟預防我想這個也許我們會來請教一下那個相關的部會你現在給我這個回答我真的是非常難過我經常說國發會呢它不是單一單位"},{"start":8172.728,"end":8196.226,"text":"他橫向的因為你一個政策下去你必須要去了解你的KPI你達成的成效是什麼你現在告訴我你什麼都不知道我怎麼跟你討論本席再告訴你當時凱凱慘死的時候七年前我們台灣我們的政府你學到了什麼"},{"start":8197.701,"end":8216.467,"text":"預算下了你學到了什麼我們又看到發育不良的這個招募器的八天餓死高雄女嬰火化他沒有骨灰阿嬤類本所苦了你苦了你在這樣的情況之下10月1號的新聞連這麼重大我們花了475億五個鋪會"},{"start":8227.506,"end":8251.564,"text":"我們都不不清楚不痛不癢這個讓我們怎麼辦我把這個功課給你這五個部會你要發揮你國花會的一個本質一個政策社會安全往下去我們預算下去我們要怎麼樣去做怎麼去追蹤怎麼去改善這也就是為什麼預算要從議我們看不到答案"},{"start":8257.557,"end":8263.035,"text":"你去了解好不好把你的精進方案給我們好不好多久時間可以告訴我們"},{"start":8264.831,"end":8290.172,"text":"一個月時間吧因為我們可能要去詢問各部分趕快去了解趕快去了解好不好趕快去了解一個月內將你的精進方案給我們好不好因為未來我們要審預算我們不希望只有看到預算下去我們看不到指標我們也不知道你們在做什麼但是社會新聞不斷的在產生這不是一個有為的政府"},{"start":8291.913,"end":8309.38,"text":"應當呈現的,好不好?我們開會看下來,他們都很努力啦!他們都很努力!現在的現象!所以一個月內請將你今天的方案給我們,好不好?接下來本席要請問你,我們的人口統計的資料"},{"start":8311.776,"end":8323.59,"text":"那內政部、勞動部、教育部、主計單位都有各有職長國防會您每兩年一次的人口推估那包括了分析未來人口變動的趨勢今年8月29號你的"},{"start":8328.556,"end":8343.168,"text":"人口推估的國防會你發出了一個公告說表示配合行政院業務整體規劃有關未來人口出生死亡等推估原定在113年8月30延末到9月30下午4點發布但不到一個月"},{"start":8347.731,"end":8352.414,"text":"你的國發會又說了9月24號國發會又貼出了一個公告他寫了推估結果再一次延後到這個月的10月31號下午4點前發布所以我要請教主委一個政府兩年公告一次的你一言再言一言再言到底怎麼回事啊你還會在10月中再告訴我們再延嗎這個問題到底出了什麼問題人口推估的報告對於我們"},{"start":8378.472,"end":8391.119,"text":"對於我們優化生養的環境營運整個超高齡的社會充實能力的這一切資源都是非常的重要所以請問什麼時候要公布我們在10月16號國家發展委員會裡面會進行討論之後就會公布"},{"start":8396.903,"end":8421.508,"text":"確認你演了兩次什麼原因演原因我跟您報告一下第一次我希望他們瞭解國際的趨勢做一個比較而不是單純好你有作為我也給你認同第二次第二次是我要求他們要有準備答案不要公告數字沒有答案面對人民對哇現任的國防會主任我讚許你沒有資料要怎麼怎麼怎麼去回應所以你打臉打了"},{"start":8422.614,"end":8444.535,"text":"前任的主委的作為我希望我也認同你有作為請你在10月16日開完會也給社會大眾公布這一定會的好最後一個議題我功課給你就好地方創新本席非常非常的堅持113年4月16日你的報告當中國防會辦理清培站的計畫已經兩年我"},{"start":8446.997,"end":8462.384,"text":"所以你累進補助了4億本席一直關心也就是地方創新到目前為止你補助106案那總共只有6案是有產業的模式所以本席希望你要提出你的"},{"start":8464.551,"end":8489.671,"text":"這個績效評估機制本席要請教你什麼時候會提出我們也是會提供書面資料給委員所以這兩年來本席希望把制度做好你把我們可以量化的KPI市場競爭力要把你的制度定出來多久時間可以定出來我們之前的上個禮拜的外包案我就把它停下來我要求他們把KPI定好才能往下"},{"start":8490.471,"end":8515.268,"text":"請問什麼時候會公布我兩週內給你兩週內公布我們一起好好的來開創這個地方創新這是我們非常努力一定要做的事情好不好謝謝謝謝楊委員精準的發言來 下一位質詢請張家俊主席我想請劉主委請國會劉主委"},{"start":8520.465,"end":8531.829,"text":"主委早安那我就直接進入主題因為今天其實有很多委員大家都發言大家的問題其實都關心著國家未來的發展那依據國發會過去的推估2025年65歲以上的長者將會佔總人口數的20%正式成為超高齡社會那因此國發會這個"},{"start":8546.855,"end":8558.604,"text":"我就是一兩年一度的人口推估獲得各方的重視啊剛才我們的楊委員有問啊但是這個發布的日期喔一再的延後到底是為什麼呢"},{"start":8559.707,"end":8571.231,"text":"因為我希望更負責任的來報告這個數字所以我們進行了多次的內部的會議包括陳時中政務委員我們上禮拜也開了一個跨部會的會議我們16號我們會進入國家發展委員會由各部會首長討論以後我們就會公告因為我們希望我們帶著一些方案跟做法來面對"},{"start":8582.934,"end":8610.008,"text":"這就是本席想要在你們開這個會之前也提醒一下主委我抱歉是10月17號的那個國家發展委員會禮拜四那我們國家裡面的這個經濟護長為65歲的這另外一個問題65歲以上的戶數就是高齡家庭的增加現在有半數出現入不敷出的情況就是賺的比花的少高齡家庭的第一位分主"},{"start":8610.708,"end":8617.696,"text":"一百一十六萬戶裡面就是佔了這個高齡家庭有49%那該組可支配的所得只有35萬左右35.62那他的消費支出是39萬點34"},{"start":8628.547,"end":8645.437,"text":"就是39.34元就是每年他要短差將近4萬元3.78萬元那尤其是高齡社會他可能會面臨的突如其來的包括生病啊等等一些支出那所以主計總署有一個高齡家庭的這個CPI指數調查說高齡家庭面臨CPI的漲幅高於其他全體的家庭所以本席建議啊國發會應該把這個問題"},{"start":8656.983,"end":8671.167,"text":"反映到行政院院會包括就是我想這個問題包括長照上一次那個主委去我辦公室的時候我也有跟主委建議說引法長照機構也更加應該積極的去建構"},{"start":8673.988,"end":8698.854,"text":"那接下來我想要問一下就是主委之前在講的有關於AI技術等等那全世界現況顯示為了對抗暖化跟這個高碳排已經這個而且迎來這個AI的高用電使用核電已經是不可擋的趨勢而台灣呢主委是否認同我們核電機組的年限應該儘速的修法延長呢"},{"start":8701.236,"end":8721.461,"text":"這個目前以我們現在只能這個店基本上因為本身不是國發會主政的但是就我瞭解我想聽聽你的意見國家發展畢竟跟你的這個業務執掌息息相關就我瞭解目前因為沒有任何法令的變動所以核電廠一定會在明年關掉就是在你國發會的這個立場你會不會主張應該要延長呢"},{"start":8726.1,"end":8746.348,"text":"我們目前以國安會的立場我們現在只是從永續的角度發展多元力能因為現在廠家需要R100那他需要綠能那我們希望幫忙廠家找到更多的綠能所以目前我們也協助經濟部在發展地熱或者是氫能源等等的是這些其實都應該並行啊"},{"start":8748.089,"end":8753.49,"text":"所以上週像上週電價審議委員會決議就是說這個產業用電要漲12.5%那原本有很多AI的巨頭都考慮來臺灣設基地更不用說我們本來的這個護國神山台積電用電量就幾乎是全臺灣的10%了那請問主委就是這個電價調漲之後你原本破壞的這個AI產業架構有沒有什麼影響"},{"start":8775.112,"end":8799.17,"text":"目前就我了解我們評估下來並沒有太大的影響沒有太大的影響?是的怎麼會?你可以解釋一下嗎?我跟委員報告一下現在像以新加坡來講你要去設一個Data Center要用百分之百的綠電那那個金額都是比我們現在的用電量還要更高那所以它其實在其他國家裡面我們目前還是有GBAD的優勢"},{"start":8801.226,"end":8817.619,"text":"我完全不能理解說因為據本席理解說這個建制高速運算主機包括這個超級電腦它算力是很重要的但是它是一個吃電的巨獸根據112年度全國電力資源供需報告推過AI科技的用電需求是至117年要增加20萬瓦200萬瓦"},{"start":8829.969,"end":8848.012,"text":"那這個成長是相較於1、2年是8倍所以臺灣的電力發電結構不需要改變就能夠支應這是依據什麼樣道理說你可以支應經濟部次長在這裡也許他可以做我就要問你經濟部我到時候再問經濟部OK我就不曉得說主委你是不是認同說我們國家的這個發電結構應該要改變呢"},{"start":8857.359,"end":8868.331,"text":"對我來講第一個我看的是電夠不夠所以其實我跟郭部長還有我跟台電董事長我也開過會那我們都一再的要求他們去除了電不夠之外呢電目前呢"},{"start":8872.455,"end":8884.403,"text":"明顯顯示說到時候這個合三機組退役之後明顯會有一個用電缺口之外根據台電最新的數據每度電平均發電成本是3.06塊那核電是全部裡面最低的每度電只1.16塊那如果假設假設假設就是最高的5至6塊包括你常常他在旁邊你就知道"},{"start":8902.395,"end":8905.917,"text":"他常常還要跟民間收電欸你知道民間收電要多少錢嗎10元8元都在收那所以我們國家一直在撥補到目前為止已經撥補了4000億了明年還要再撥補1000億所以這樣加起來5000億欸國發會主任你自己想一想這對國家發展是有利的嗎龍心自己問一下好不好在"},{"start":8927.711,"end":8952.01,"text":"國際上重啟核能已經是勢不可擋的趨勢包括日本的新任首相他也表示說不會放棄核電韓國的那個他也發表了去核電的政策那核能發電量已經佔他全國發電量的30%了所以我想要知道的是包括美國包括瑞士大家都在"},{"start":8953.28,"end":8964.856,"text":"重啟核能這是一個潮流所以我可以再請教一下主委說你到底覺得說如果你要迎來這個AI的高用電實用核電是不是不可擋的趨勢呢?"},{"start":8966.969,"end":8988.007,"text":"現在最主要還是一樣他電夠不夠的問題他電明顯就不夠嘛你們不能夠蒙蔽自己的眼睛說我們應該夠你怎麼算會夠呢你綠能我本席沒有反對綠能但是你綠能的這個發展你自己看他的數據就知道他根本跟不上來嘛"},{"start":8989.537,"end":8989.657,"text":"國發會是規劃全國經濟發展"},{"start":9008.739,"end":9034.235,"text":"員警的部會那經濟部長也曾回答過我,郭部長就他也回答過我說他會考慮延長核電廠的使用年限而且這個是國發會的使命欸這句話不是沒有道理這重任是要放在你身上請主委要把他扛起來好不好我們全體的國民都可以做你的後盾但是主要是你要先願意扛起來"},{"start":9034.915,"end":9051.448,"text":"因為法律的規定喔,能源政策是在經濟部能源設置的但是你可以有主張啊,不代表你不能有主張嘛謝謝張院委員時間掌握得非常好,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝委員來請回座,消費資訊請蔡易瑜歡迎時間6加2"},{"start":9066.457,"end":9093.474,"text":"謝謝昭偉那我們是不是有請國發會主委蔡委員早好主委我想要就教主委那行政院在9月的時候針對國家人才的競爭力躍升方案那有一個四年期的計畫那它鎖定的有包括AI的人才以及綠色領域跨域"},{"start":9094.774,"end":9122.83,"text":"跨域的人文數位人才那我們希望在2028年要到45萬的人次那包括說要新增12萬名外國專業人才那擴增8萬名外國技術能力那我想要請教主委的就是說好我們2028年要新增這樣外國的專業人才那外國的技術能力到台灣來那你們的具體計畫是什麼"},{"start":9124.701,"end":9148.641,"text":"好的我們具體計畫是透過幾種方式第一個是放寬法令鬆綁讓人才更容易進來那尤其是我們也比較了日本、新加坡、韓國等地還有澳洲這些跟我們搶人才的地方做一個比較那之後呢我們現在也集合了各部會正在修訂法令我們希望在年底送進立法院來審議你也很清楚啦"},{"start":9151.564,"end":9154.551,"text":"現在外國的人才要進來最主要是法令的"},{"start":9156.45,"end":9183.523,"text":"的限制就是說我們如果沒有鬆綁現行的法令的情況之下外國人是進不來的啊你不管是專業人才或者是我們現在我們知道台灣各行各業都在缺工缺工的情況之下我相信主委你到民間的所有的企業你去找一找你也查這個缺工的狀況多嚴重啊對那既然缺工的狀況是這麼的嚴重我們都知道那我想要跟主委說的就是說我們看"},{"start":9185.27,"end":9205.972,"text":"有一個國家叫做泰國泰國他們在於這十年過去我們台灣都把泰國當作我們的移工的一個重點的來源國結果連泰國這個國家他們都正視到了他們自己國內也是缺工嚴重所以他們在過去這十年他們就把他們整個"},{"start":9208.475,"end":9228.396,"text":"這個整個國家的一個員工做了一個大幅度的調整那從2014年他們針對外國的一個聘用的一個外國人的聘用就增加160萬所以他們的所有的這個社會體系的僱員就已經55%以上都是外籍勞工"},{"start":9230.445,"end":9248.974,"text":"55%這是泰國這個國家那我們可以想像說他們基本上他們的勞動力已經比台灣充足的情況之下他們還鬆綁法令到了現在55%以上可以聘用外籍僱員那所以外國的勞工現在總數也是到達了他們歷史的一個巔峰"},{"start":9249.474,"end":9278.614,"text":"那可以看出說他們基本上大家都知道說我要保護國內的勞動力保護國內的年輕人有就業機會但是這個前提必須在於說年輕人到底選擇怎樣的就業如果這個就業機會是年輕人沒有意願的那我們還僵在這邊然後一直不把所謂移工的政策給他大幅的鬆綁這個是不利台灣整體的經濟發展主委你贊同我這樣的說法嗎我贊同委員的看法"},{"start":9279.234,"end":9306.443,"text":"對,所以我要具體的去跟主委說,我們去比較我只要用泰國,因為泰國過去我們都說泰國移工阿現在人家泰國他們都引進移工,他們都到了55%那我們在相對於台灣,我們還在用傳統的5個等級就是3K5級制的一個適用從A++到ABCD,然後他們各差5%"},{"start":9307.583,"end":9329.175,"text":"最多到35%那如果他又再提高了他就用就業安定金金基本上這樣的政策你把它看起來如果你在C級啦C級的部分我跟他要請一個移工我定義要請六個六個本國籍人士對產業來說我不是不請這六個本國籍人士捏是我根本這六個我請不上"},{"start":9335.947,"end":9358.205,"text":"並不是說我不請啊我願意去聘請可是我請不上這六個所以我既然請不上這六個我就沒辦法去請一個移工來來我的公司做工作我是用C級的喔如果你用到D級的話D級的話是用電子零組件那又涉及到的科技產業喔又涉及到的科技業所以你回到D級的話我要請一個移工我要請十個十個"},{"start":9361.087,"end":9366.865,"text":"本國籍的勞工問題就我這十個就找不到啊真沒人啊"},{"start":9368.249,"end":9395.122,"text":"所以這個比例來說我覺得以現階段我們不要講少子話我們就是講現在大家對於所謂工作的太陽的思考在改變年輕人他可能會選擇說我透過AI的時代我可以在網路上工作我可以更自由、更有彈性的工作型態這是他們要的工作型態那如果是受僱於產業這個不是他們理想的受僱型態的時候"},{"start":9397.023,"end":9406.21,"text":"企業也要跟著調整國家的法令也要跟著調整啊好不好 主委我最好讓你講這個我們會找勞動部來討論一下那你們的想法是怎樣"},{"start":9407.52,"end":9430.858,"text":"以我對產業的認知跟壓力的了解我是希望能放寬是最好啦因為泰國事實上在2018年人口開始消失他們到2024年人口會開始進入萎縮那所以他們很快的就制定了外勞法以後就開放的很快那我們可能有很多內部不同的聲音要被解決所以我想我找我們會找勞動部來討論這件事情"},{"start":9433.082,"end":9446.156,"text":"我是覺得要正視這問題而且這件事不要再拖我當然知道說很多政策的制定它會有不同的想法會有不同的意見但是這些意見中視要有被"},{"start":9447.406,"end":9464.518,"text":"有一方退讓就是說服的過程必須要減短就是要一方要退讓嘛對到底什麼怎樣才是對於國家產業是正確的啊所以我覺得這個東西你們真的就是趕快深入調查你們要趕快去了解現在所謂我們對於勞動力他們就業的狀況我剛才說的這麼多我認為那些都是現時是真的要緊面對的狀況"},{"start":9472.643,"end":9485.92,"text":"我的看法是跟你一致的啦我會來努力一下好那這部分讓主委要趕快費心因為我們國發會是站在整個國家的布局是非常的重要產業布局那第二個勒我再跟主委說一下現在"},{"start":9488.183,"end":9490.426,"text":"我們在討論這個中高齡重返職場那這個中高齡重返職場他是需要這個中高齡他們不管是心態的一個調適或者是他們的生活習慣"},{"start":9504.142,"end":9509.844,"text":"所以我們事實上也做了一些數據的調查就是說針對45歲以上中高齡重返職場事實上我們從這個民調顯示是非常的悲觀就是說有高達為這個民調認為說重返職場是輕鬆的只有0.8%"},{"start":9526.871,"end":9534.147,"text":"只有0.8%所以你看起來勒是將近九成的人都認為種繁職場是有困難或者是有壓力"},{"start":9535.402,"end":9560.632,"text":"所以他是說中高齡第一個要重返職場困難那這個困難來自於說產業可能已經有替代能力他現在這個人要回去是有困難還是說他整個心態的轉變但是我想台灣有一個狀況我們對於65歲以上的勞動參與率相對於韓國相對於新加坡相對於日本韓國新加坡是30%日本是25%我們台灣65歲以上的勞動參與率只有10%"},{"start":9565.274,"end":9584.641,"text":"這部分我覺得我們也可以檢討擴大整個勞動力勞動力的參與才是我們經濟發展的主要的一個一個基石好不好好的所以主委我剛剛這部分這一點有納入我們的人才策略裡面那我們可能會想要建議這個成立一個這個人口對策的辦公室來"},{"start":9586.481,"end":9602.446,"text":"好,這個兩行都很要緊,我講這兩行,都是勞動力一定要想辦法去提高,不然現在所有台灣的三頁,大家要叫好不好,主委。好,謝謝。好,謝謝蔡議員精準的發言,請回座。好。下一位質詢請鄭天才,6加2。"},{"start":9620.883,"end":9648.851,"text":"主席有請劉主委。請官會劉主委。政委好。主委好。今天你的報告我覺得非常好,你的報告,業務報告。那我們先看原住民與全國民的每人每業主要工作平均收入。"},{"start":9650.171,"end":9675.745,"text":"如果我們走這十年來一百零二年這個原住民的平均收入兩萬六千三百七十三跟全國的這個落差差不多一萬左右然後除了一百零六年呢原住民的平均收入每年成長但是一百零六年是減少減少兩萬八千"},{"start":9678.783,"end":9705.249,"text":"那如果我們整個到這個十年來看全國國民跟原住民的平均收入的落差其實沒有什麼太大的改變對原住民而言沒有比較好因為都是在一萬到八千之間這個落差都維持在一萬到八千之間所以"},{"start":9707.044,"end":9734.233,"text":"這個除了嚴明會之外很重要的就是各部會尤其是國發會、經濟部等各部會都有希望能夠給予協助這個是一個基本的數字先讓這個主委瞭解你的報告我真的是非常謝謝會提到這個不遺落任何人的公正專心"},{"start":9735.506,"end":9764.027,"text":"有這樣的一個報告第一個確保個人、產業與群體發展的機會確認公正轉型對象與範疇及建立補償策略與機制就個人而言就是原住民個人每一個個人就群體而言原住民族所以這個部分當然跟我們原住民的就業的那個"},{"start":9765.595,"end":9781.597,"text":"方向當然跟我們的居住環境跟我們的產業也都有關係所以這個主委如果從你剛才你的報告然後從我剛才的一個就收入的比較"},{"start":9783.106,"end":9805.043,"text":"主委有沒有什麼可以協助的部分跟委員說明一下其實這分兩個件事情第一件事情這個不遺落任何人的公正轉型其實是主要您看下面主要是為了2050年的淨零轉型那因為淨零的過程中會產生公正轉型的問題我們同仁"},{"start":9807.245,"end":9834.863,"text":"漏了近鄰公正轉型兩個字啦齁但是所以這個是以近鄰為主但是委員提的當然這個問題也是我們社會現象的一部分我們也該重視就是說原住民的收入平均比較低那我的想法是說可能我來找原民會找這個經濟部大家我們坐下來開個會來討論一下啦然後再跟委員做一個報告看看我們用什麼方式來逐步的把它改善"},{"start":9836.312,"end":9843.774,"text":"非常謝謝還要加勞動部所以這個部分要請主委、國發會、經濟部相關的部會當然我們看這個也請經濟部次長經濟部何市長"},{"start":9863.339,"end":9891.988,"text":"我們看原住民主基本法第18條政府應設原住民主組合發展基金辦理原住民主經濟發展業務上個禮拜五我在總質詢的時候也質詢了行政院院長就這條條文了這個我在省政府當副局長原住民行政局副局長的時候開始設置這個原住民主經濟事業發展基金"},{"start":9893.075,"end":9919.251,"text":"現在改為原住民組綜合發展基金最主要提供原住民辦理經濟事業貸款住宅貸款、青年創業貸款維新經濟活動貸款及原住民組事業貸款等等好不容易在沈議員以及經審之後立法委員的一個督促我們協調組織總署"},{"start":9921.633,"end":9944.509,"text":"每年編列幾億幾億的錢投入到這個經濟發展基金的綜合發展基金裡面到105年了這個基金有117億7千多萬來辦理相關的經濟發展的業務但是很可惜被挪用到這個淨法補償的費用去了"},{"start":9945.542,"end":9958.703,"text":"所以現在這個基金累積短促也就是財源不足68億8千多萬8千多萬這個部分也因為這個部分導致我們的總預算"},{"start":9960.563,"end":9980.59,"text":"一直來來回回一直沒有辦法復為審查所以我一直尋求因為我是老公務員一直尋求怎麼樣去解決這個這樣的一個困境所以也要請國發會有諸位能夠共同的去協調其實"},{"start":9984.3,"end":10003.945,"text":"這個進法補償明年的預算就是少編17億而已辦理追加預算就可以解決的事情了所以這個部分這個我們共同的來努力好 我們請劉主委回座好 這個次長"},{"start":10005.455,"end":10016.399,"text":"在你的書面報告裡面提到臺灣中小企業是經濟發展的磐石目前中小企業有超過163萬家目前臺灣新創企業有7900家這個部分是不是能夠會後盤點一下原住民到底有幾家"},{"start":10033.015,"end":10056.801,"text":"好,可以嗎?好,可以。好,謝謝。那個如果不知道他的,這個可以問延明會怎麼樣去查這個,他到底是不是有原住民身份。好,人才面的部分,捷訓學院超過46000多人次,然後培育超過4500名的低碳專業人才。"},{"start":10059.617,"end":10077.367,"text":"也希望請經濟部提供原住民到底有多少方法很簡單我過去在延民會服務的時候很簡單的方式就是你把他們的這些身分證支號給延民會延民會電腦一查就知道就有了好不好很簡單"},{"start":10081.884,"end":10088.406,"text":"培育524家新創及732位創業家提供最低8成保證及低利貸款利息一期補貼並額外提供保證融資額度最高1億元之優惠"},{"start":10110.202,"end":10130.817,"text":"然後辦理一百一十二年期經已辦理一萬八千兩百二十三件這個部分到底有沒有原住民是好不好好都是數據啦好謝謝謝謝政經事務委員非常精準的發言請回座稍後質詢請李玲稍微來"},{"start":10138.88,"end":10140.283,"text":"謝謝主席 請劉主委請國會劉主委"},{"start":10149.352,"end":10174.18,"text":"各位早一早很多委員都有提到現在我們年輕人對生養小孩的意願都非常的低落尤其是我們台灣少子化這個浪潮是越來越嚴峻尤其在我們台灣從2021年開始就連續43個月出生率低於死亡率尤其在2023年的時候我們生育率更是"},{"start":10174.62,"end":10198.371,"text":"全世界的倒數第一名這個情形的原因很多也很複雜那也不是單一原因但是針對於高房價、高物價以及高工時這工時很高薪資又很低的情形之下育兒成本都是增加的這也是讓我們現在世代的年輕人不敢生養孩子的最重要的一個考量"},{"start":10199.131,"end":10218.424,"text":"那尤其是我們國發會針對這個人口的調查裡面每兩年會調查一次以未來50年的這基準來做一個調查那在2023年的時候你們做出來的依據是大概是出生人口大概低估值是14萬但是統計出來是13萬5571人那今年的話也應該要公布了剛剛你特別講到10月16號你就會公布"},{"start":10226.909,"end":10251.42,"text":"突然這兩個月公布,你是16號開會17號公布嘛那你這為了說要更精準一點更有這個數據可以做交代你要用國際的趨勢來做一個比較那是不是因為前面出來的數字不好看、不美麗所以你要把國際趨勢比如美國啊這方面的拿出來比較來讓你們可以做一個交代呢"},{"start":10252.049,"end":10269.452,"text":"倒也不是喔 主要是我們希望當然的確台灣的情形是的確是相較其他國家比較嚴重但是我們做任何事情都希望多看一下外面的世界的趨勢跟變化譬如說日本是正在日本已經改善了那他們的怎麼改善我都希望同仁去研究"},{"start":10270.493,"end":10283.207,"text":"第二個事情是我們內部其實也開了兩次會議那上一次是陳時中政委他負責的就把大家都集合下來我們也盤點各部會能做什麼事怎麼再去改善結婚的慾望到生小孩的"},{"start":10285.729,"end":10295.202,"text":"以上任的時候在大概六月份的時候他就有宣布要成立健康台灣那有任務型的組織編制了委員會那特別是針對少數化部分就有召集人這個陳時中來做召集"},{"start":10302.452,"end":10315.426,"text":"特別有提到未來每生一胎是一個寶寶可以每個月領3萬塊一直到他上幼稚園為止那這個部分我們主委你是支持這個方案嗎"},{"start":10316.807,"end":10335.308,"text":"這個方案的細節我並不清楚是但是身為國發會你不清楚對你應該要去自己橫向溝通還有整個整體的配套要看怎麼去研究來讓這個每個月3萬塊就可以鼓勵到年輕人生育這單一的想法3萬塊年輕人就會生嗎"},{"start":10336.469,"end":10365.095,"text":"剛剛特別提到這個高房價、高物價、工時又高、薪資又低的情形,國防委沒有配到嗎?沒有檢討的方案嗎?跟您報告,我初步只要現在年輕人只要結婚有97%年級會生小孩那重點是結婚率比較偏低所以我們現在是朝不同的方向包括怎麼樣提升結婚率那提升結婚率其實我們也做了調查那目前來講找不到合適對象是一個很大的主要原因"},{"start":10365.635,"end":10390.936,"text":"所以我們現在準備把這些都排列下來我們希望逐步的一個一個去解決先讓結婚的機率變高第二個事情讓生小孩他們的壓力變小考慮的問題全部要好好的研究、配套、討論我們也有研究到日本日本他有一個補助到甚至到高中畢業那這樣的話都可以紓解壓力所以我們希望整體的再來你先考慮到國小這個部分吧"},{"start":10391.916,"end":10399.98,"text":"一步一步來接下來就是說因為少子化的問題會衝擊我們整個我國的產業跟經濟的一個很大的衝擊所以我們國發會為了要來研兩外國的專業人才在各方面的"},{"start":10408.484,"end":10427.001,"text":"不管是居留、工作的許可等等你們發了這個就業的金卡到今年為止八月份的統計你們是發出了一萬一千零一十七張但是只有三千三百五十二個留在臺灣不到三分之一的情形所以本席想請問國發會你們有什麼依據去評估他們這些對我們我國的延攬"},{"start":10434.468,"end":10457.058,"text":"國外人才跟我們產業的轉型有什麼配套上瞭解上他對我們國家的貢獻有沒有跟委員說明一下能夠拿到金卡的人代表他的月薪要有16萬以上是比較屬於尖端人才那第二個部分是這裡面有很多的是創業者所以他本身本來就會來來去去那我們提供的是他來台創業然後的方便性"},{"start":10457.378,"end":10471.645,"text":"所以你評估他對我們國家的這個產業跟原產人才有什麼貢獻這才是重點啦不是他拿金卡16萬他是一個老闆基本上他就有16萬啦對不對那你一到三年時間又可以展延又再展延你一直讓他組織方便"},{"start":10473.025,"end":10479.712,"text":"這張金卡則方便他出入來的工作許可跟居留證而已並被對我們產業實質你應該有所依據來評估他對我們的產業有沒有轉型的幫忙有沒有人才的延攬進來對我們技術各方面的提升這才是重點啦"},{"start":10488.781,"end":10516.429,"text":"對我們現在其實更需要是他們留下來不要走所以我們也開始進行檢討那裡面很大的一個是我們的雙語環境不足那他們譬如說眷屬來小孩來念書或者是買菜等等方便性不夠所以我們現在今年也在明年的預算裡面我們也編列一個這個雙語環境的實驗點希望讓這些人進來以後能夠感受到能夠比較能夠更方便的生活願意留下來"},{"start":10516.749,"end":10538.844,"text":"主委 這要加強的啦不是說他們的生活不便利我相信我們台灣的生活上應該都是很便利的那尤其是現在我們有個大矽谷計畫這一顧的成效並沒有看到你實質的雖然說在上個禮拜行政院已經審查通過了 核定通過了但是我們看整體來講的話它整體的區域部分"},{"start":10539.918,"end":10565.665,"text":"就像他對產業整個大溪谷那個桃竹苗的大溪谷這個計畫在整個包括我們龍潭的地方龍柯山崎也都被規劃進去了就是整個發展會有個產業鏈這產業鏈形成的就是最重要土地的問題那土地的問題的話就會跟我們國土規劃法這個部分會有相關重大的一個牽連性為什麼呢因為國土的功能區分"},{"start":10566.745,"end":10576.891,"text":"區分的區域的區分圖還沒有每個縣市沒有送出來在沒有送出來的情形之下你把規劃出來的話萬一它有些的農地被規劃為農醫的話未來是不會隨便更改的是不是我們國發會這邊要來做個橫向的溝通讓整體企業的需求還有我們各地方各縣市對國土法這土地的規劃做一個區域功能性的一個方向才能夠讓我們整體把規劃出來"},{"start":10595.403,"end":10604.542,"text":"讓我們的產業才不會因為沒有土地的問題我想委員提的這一點是非常好如果對產業發展有需求的話我們國安會是願意出來進行協調"},{"start":10606.906,"end":10633.534,"text":"因為國土這個分區規劃分區規劃圖這個是很重要所以我們希望我們趕快把這個延緩兩年讓各地方能夠把這個整個計畫重新規劃送出來之後我們整體討論再來實施也跟委員報告我們在國土法裡面我們也找了國科會跟經濟部針對他未來需要科學園區跟產業園區的土地的需求量也做過盤點"},{"start":10634.814,"end":10660.176,"text":"對,所以我們要確立土地的規劃的方向好不好?是的是的好,謝謝好,謝謝林議廷委員非常精準的發言請回座下一位質詢請陳昌明發言時間6加2分鐘,謝謝主席啊,首先有請我們國會留主委請國會留主委"},{"start":10667.086,"end":10689.997,"text":"陳委員好呃 劉主委啊首先我要感謝你國會這次提出了我們討植植苗大溪谷的計畫已經核定了那苗栗縣有核定三個地區一個是植卵第二科學園區一個是投入科學園區一個是賀龍科的產業園區"},{"start":10691.909,"end":10717.61,"text":"那這個過程裡面我特別感謝我們國會、我們國土室的黃次長還有幾位副主委的協志手眼快合定下來最重要我希望我們的劉子維容然繼續給我們這大溪谷計畫支持尤其是我們苗栗縣因為苗栗縣把它完成起來就是西部的科技走廊就會完整"},{"start":10718.612,"end":10723.817,"text":"好不好這邊我特別拜託感謝我們的國會的努力讓我終於把它合定下來完成了一個任務謝謝黃次長請回座在這個問題我要請到劉子維"},{"start":10737.179,"end":10758.758,"text":"你是國外國家發展委員會行政院現在又成立一個經濟發展委員會國家發展委員會以前把研考會放進來你現在叫做經濟發展委員會到底是行政院更大還是你國家發展委員會更大還是國家發展委員會更大你這樣聽我的意思嗎?"},{"start":10764.824,"end":10778.023,"text":"但是這本來就是因為我們是歸行政院管轄啦對啦對啦你不好意思說我今天聽你說你要叫行政院他不是正式的機關要叫他加一個執行機構"},{"start":10779.861,"end":10792.666,"text":"第二個他跌船下屋他是違章見識我們要做一個企業要做一個計畫好應該把你國科也不是你國安會所有的計畫請他們來討論給你做參考"},{"start":10796.067,"end":10821.295,"text":"但是我現在看到行政院所請的經濟委員會都是大公、私下、學者你們是他們我會為他們產業強化所以不能怪他們但是你國家發展是一個森林他們是裡面的一棵樹所以那個行政院沒有經驗要是我當院長我說來把我國會的所有計畫全部提出來"},{"start":10822.555,"end":10839.717,"text":"你們來研討有什麼要補充有什麼要改進有什麼要加強的地方我曉得你不敢講我聽你講也傳給行政院講不要把方法方向搞錯了不然你會很亂那些人你也得罪不起"},{"start":10840.638,"end":10846.299,"text":"我是老實講,老實話大家給意見之後,然後院長支持我們往下走那你經濟發展委員會,裡面有經濟創新,有驚悚台灣你又說包容成長,我都想沒什麼叫做經濟發展委員會"},{"start":10860.743,"end":10876.75,"text":"出來一個包容成長 我不知道你給我介紹一下因為我時間有限 我要問你很多問題包容成長他們主要是在談平衡性就是包括青年所得等等這些事情中小企業的發展因為我們中小企業在台灣的比重比較大所以這裡面已經有協視這件報案說參加的委員都為他們的產業來講話"},{"start":10890.558,"end":10905.924,"text":"我覺得不對你應該把你的創新思維你的施政方針、投資人才、跨域合作還有開放政府給他們去討論給你做參考你是決定的人"},{"start":10907.165,"end":10922.403,"text":"那不一定可以做出很好的結論下來跟委員報告我參加的均衡台灣的均衡發展組那沒有人會為自己去提啦大家都是針對議題包括我們在談的是奶菜的問題均衡發展就是城鄉的發展、產業的均衡發展來"},{"start":10925.704,"end":10942.656,"text":"講到政府發展,我要給你挨個資料你說你今年的公共建設是2405億包括前瞻計畫450億所以達到這一公共,今年的公共建設有3000億你說裡面有266項各部份"},{"start":10949.26,"end":10971.994,"text":"吼,這幾位大,你能提供給我們266項我們知道各部會應價值應得在主意才能去那個進行臺灣每一個地方能平均的發展這些都在我們送院的預算書裡面我曉得預算書太多了啊你們要解列出來能不能把266項做一個給我們經濟委員參考多久的時間給你兩個禮拜"},{"start":10981.058,"end":11005.364,"text":"二分部會喔!好!再來今天有一個重頭戲就是中小企業跟服務業那你們也曉得中小企業跟服務業啊它佔我們生產滿國GDP的62%就會人口會達到六成但是在這經濟部怎麼講我把那個合的合"},{"start":11008.062,"end":11013.732,"text":"經濟部的以前中小企業核次長身為政府次長,這樣說就盡了。但是你們在笑我看沒什麼,你們裡面有說什麼那個"},{"start":11021.68,"end":11045.469,"text":"那個進行台灣來電施惠效率化、作業效率化、資本效率化敢這樣寫下去,我們什麼都沒有在台上所以以後我在地方辦中小企業還是服務業的服務你們要下來指導一下這三個名稱很響亮但是我不曉得內容在哪裡會不會人家把我們指導人家寫到你們國會"},{"start":11046.969,"end":11062.018,"text":"你經濟部在服務中小企業這三個是你們只要的方向,要怎麼做,要告訴我們嗎?你們在說,我們會看到人都不知道啦,包括立委都不清楚你們這要怎麼做,有沒有比較具體化?"},{"start":11064.43,"end":11089.461,"text":"跟委員說明以工具機產業來講它大部分的企業都營收年營收都在10億上下比較多那這些企業它在打國際盃的時候現在是很難跟大的企業去競爭所以受到很大的壓力所以我們就會協助他們成立控股公司的概念把它集結成一個大型公司為什麼你這個報告寫得很好我要很尊重地稱讚你"},{"start":11090.701,"end":11095.284,"text":"你有五大信賴產業、經營發展、遷移、打造、創新、產業交資、產業創新、造園投資方案"},{"start":11099.642,"end":11118.448,"text":"還有人才的人來,我都自己背到寫上,開始寫了不錯,但是這裡面的法規跟你協調的溝通能力很重要,要去把它完成,好不好?公共建設的那個部份266項要給我,要分各部會,我管你怎麼進行臺灣"},{"start":11121.489,"end":11146.214,"text":"再來,吼,你這個諸位文很厲害、很偉大你說我們的GDP要超過日本跟韓國還要追、追平以色列啊,我們的希望在2027年、2028年能達到我們的GDP每一個人四萬美元這個雄心、這個壯志我很稱讚鼓勵六八到五八"},{"start":11147.506,"end":11159.191,"text":"有沒有把握這個我們會來努力啦那基本上信心是很夠啦不是啦未來努力給我們一個希望你把它打成這樣要站起來啦那麼快"},{"start":11165.191,"end":11180.999,"text":"我還有好幾個問題沒有問,敏感的問題你都突然站起來時間很短,以後改進啦!業務報告時間要長一點啦!會議順暢要是我就10分鐘就要2分鐘欸我下次再考慮一下謝謝這個陳昌明委員精彩的質詢謝謝,請回座"},{"start":11195.871,"end":11200.274,"text":"謝謝趙偉我想要請我們劉主委跟我們何次長請國務委劉主委"},{"start":11208.53,"end":11226.577,"text":"我想請教一下就是說我們其實有非常多的政策是來延攬專業的人才但是其實我們發現了中小企業現在他們的勞工都高齡化了那對於中小企業勞工高齡化問題我們國發會跟我們經濟部這麼解決"},{"start":11231.838,"end":11258.623,"text":"目前就我了解就是在勞動部有訂一個中高齡就業相關的法令然後也有給予一定的這個優惠給這些企業所以希望協助這個高齡者能夠就業原因是現在的人身體比較健康然後我們的全球在相較來講我們的這個高齡的就業勞參率也比較低所以目前的話勞動部的做法是這樣的"},{"start":11260.816,"end":11286.603,"text":"那經濟部呢跟委員報告其實我們在這個中小竊販條例裡面也有修正就是說如果要徵雇這個65歲以上的基層員工的話我們會有做一些抵檢抵檢率可以達到200以上租稅優惠嗎對對對但是我想要了解的以年輕的勞工來講他們通常喜歡科技產業多過於中小傳產這樣子的產業"},{"start":11288.584,"end":11316.176,"text":"那怎麼樣子促進就是我們就是年輕人口對於我們中小企業的創新研發能力的這個精進那才能夠讓中小企業未來因為以目前我看到國發會目前的情況你們會不會都只重視AI產業那對於中小企業的創新研究也不重視那這樣子的情況下"},{"start":11317.296,"end":11329.002,"text":"如果未來我們的年輕的勞工都流向了高科技的產業那中小企業如何能夠有創新、研發的這樣子的動能呢?是不是?國科委、國發會主委"},{"start":11331.307,"end":11349.657,"text":"跟委員報告關於這一點其實我們也很重視所以我們在創新創業的雨林生態系裡面我們保留的創新就是希望這些中小企業都能夠走入創新那我們也會從投資的角度給予他們一定的協助"},{"start":11350.771,"end":11378.557,"text":"所以你是以投資抵減還是怎麼樣?原因是這樣我說明一下現在企業中小企業大概遇到兩種狀況第一個它處於一個成長型的產業那它靠創新維生的另外一個是它屬於成熟型產業成熟型產業它其實它如果去比成本的話會很辛苦比創新會比較有未來所以我們希望這些人都從創新的角度去發展那創新不一定是AI是各個產業都可以有創新"},{"start":11379.437,"end":11397.671,"text":"那我們希望大家都走進去所以你是希望把AI引進不一定是AI只要是創新都是可行的那你能不能再具體一點因為你這樣講有一點天馬行空因為大家不知道說你怎麼樣子把創新引進到中小企業"},{"start":11398.351,"end":11421.276,"text":"我舉個例子在我們彰化有一個做腳踏車過去做剎車的公司那他們現在就去研發了一個就是未來整個自行車會走到電腐車的世界他們就在設立了一個研發中心專門在研發這個部分那現在他的產品已經走已經被那個Bosch納入他的這個供應鏈裡面"},{"start":11424.617,"end":11431.004,"text":"那這個就是從一個傳統的剎車的腳踏車剎車的產業走進了一個電動的電腐車的這個領域裡面而且打進了全世界最大的一個這個電腐車廠家那這些都是透過從一個這個從最傳統的工業走進一個智慧的工業裡面那這個都是屬於我們認為他可以去發展的"},{"start":11446.741,"end":11467.416,"text":"好 那我還要再請問就是我們現在碳費它徵收的標準是以大型企業為主但是我們知道未來大型企業他們是上游廠商嗎那他們可能會把他們的成本轉嫁給中小企業尤其是中下游的產業供應鏈"},{"start":11468.877,"end":11490.178,"text":"那所以上游的廠商如果把這些碳費的成本轉嫁給我們中小企業或是中下游的工廠的時候那這樣子勢必會影響到中小企業的生產成本我們知道目前電價的上漲已經對中小企業的成本已經增加非常多了"},{"start":11490.438,"end":11505.245,"text":"那未來如果碳費的進一步的轉嫁到我們的中小企業的時候那是不是對他們的生產成本也勢必會增加也會壓縮到他們的空間那這個部分我們政府部門怎麼樣來協助他們"},{"start":11508.062,"end":11530.16,"text":"我們有幾個作業現在正在進行中因為碳費的如果要實施的話他是會到2026年才會開始收所以這段時間還有一個緩衝期那我們現在呢第一個我們現在第一個是我們有在找環境部我們希望他成立一個綠色成長基金那這個綠色成長基金來協助這個企業開始進行這個減碳的工作"},{"start":11533.903,"end":11552.583,"text":"那另外其實跟經濟部我們開始也進入也開始投資像ESCO之類的東西去協助這些產業進行這個減碳的動作所以這些都有都是希望能夠幫助這個企業降低它的衝擊那我想要問一下我們中小企業處那你們是怎麼樣子做這個部分"},{"start":11553.123,"end":11581.4,"text":"跟委員報告其實最主要就是說要輔導企業他要能夠減碳那這個部分我們其實跟一些工協會都已經有建立這樣的一個合作的網絡他用大帶小的方式來協助一些中小企業他從整個供應鏈來做減碳能夠讓整個碳的這個成本能夠降低那當然就是還有一個是節能的部分剛剛主委講到這個部分也是我們會加大力道來推動"},{"start":11582.401,"end":11598.151,"text":"那你們怎麼樣加大力度推動就是因為這些中小企業即便他們願意執行的去探盤查就是加入了這個就是因為有可能他們是對歐的貿易嘛那他們可能要有進行探盤查"},{"start":11598.911,"end":11618.593,"text":"可是對於碳排放就是的這樣量的計算的能力以及執行碳盤查的這樣的情況的驗證那我們目前國內的驗證機關是否足夠那現在是怎麼樣的情況你是不是能跟國民報告好"},{"start":11619.674,"end":11626.344,"text":"目前除了就是說有國外的驗證機構以外我們為了要補足那個量能的話我們現在大概國內有幾家法人成立的這個驗證機構大概6、7家左右的驗證機構包括"},{"start":11634.595,"end":11659.655,"text":"這個像我們的這個進攻中心那我們還有那個大電力公司等等這些他都可以來幫忙做驗證那我們其實有一些輔導團如果中小企業需要我們來做服務的話我們經濟部這邊有所以除了7家的這個就是歐系的驗證公司外我們還有自己的法人我們自己有法人可以來做輔導"},{"start":11661.456,"end":11674.52,"text":"那這樣子的能量是否足夠呢?你們現在目前做的就是說中小企業碳排查的比例多高?是 因為這件工作其實大概已經兩年前就已經開始在做了那所以陸陸續續其實都以這個"},{"start":11679.741,"end":11705.087,"text":"從這個被歐盟規範的這個產業為優先那我們這個慢慢的就是說開始把一些國內的這個重要的這些這個製造業的聚落我們大概都都走了一遍那目前跟工協會其實都還在相關的這些碳盤炒的工作都還在進行當中所以我們希望就是說蘇歐的這個產品基本上大概都八九成應該都已經都已經完成了"},{"start":11711.381,"end":11721.43,"text":"請回座因為時間也快到12點主席在這邊宣布上午質詢到無尊城無尊城之後就休息下午2點半繼續開會"},{"start":11734.806,"end":11751.956,"text":"好,現在請邱志偉召委做詢問。謝謝主席,有請國會劉志偉劉志偉順便那個經濟部何次長何次長"},{"start":11760.033,"end":11782.995,"text":"這個 主委 大家都在談 最近討論颱風架颱風架的依據 颱風架怎麼做決策那你從國家發展角度 從產業發展角度 從經濟發展角度覺得現行的這個放颱風架的這個依據跟標準跟決策模式有沒有檢討的空間我認為這個還是要看科學依據啦 那至少現在"},{"start":11784.756,"end":11805.242,"text":"呃 各縣市應該自己決定 其他國家都沒有用這個政府去宣布是不是要放台灣價那我看過其他的這個國家幾乎好像都沒有這個相關的規定當然我尊重科學那當然產業發展國家發展也是很重要我想問你有沒有檢討的可能性"},{"start":11806.588,"end":11823.41,"text":"現在應該只是對於這個未來的這個鋒利的判斷應該是可以再檢討了但是由政府來發布我想會比我小時候還好我們小時候就是每一家企業自己決定由各縣市政府自己去做判斷"},{"start":11824.051,"end":11846.333,"text":"因為我們早年小時候就發生過很多事情有些企業跟著政府放有些企業是自己決定結果發生了很多的意外所以後來才由政府統一的我經歷過這個時代所以還是覺得限制有限制政府去做決定是目前相對比較好的至少以我過去我們經歷的時代來看是比較安全的何市長,產業界有沒有什麼聲音呢?"},{"start":11848.925,"end":11874.83,"text":"當然產業界會造成不便因為就好像已經排定的這個班表這個他們可能要重新再run過一次對他們競爭力會不會影響競爭力競爭力當然也有一些影響那你覺得現行台商價放下標準是不是要有調整空間這個應該是要交給專業啦你的回答我也會回答"},{"start":11876.391,"end":11898.341,"text":"好 第一個少子化日本有一個少子化對策委員會少子化是一個大臣他是一個內閣部會的首長在擔任少子化對策委員會統合各個部會去做針對這個少子化造成的國安問題那我們現在少子化的對策分布在相關的部會衛福部、經濟部相關的部會"},{"start":11900.461,"end":11910.839,"text":"那他的實施雖然經費這個比過去增加很多但是效果還是有限所以未來有沒有可能有一個四群統一機關像日本一樣有一個少子化大臣"},{"start":11912.129,"end":11924.483,"text":"這個主委您支持嗎我是支持這個看法的也跟您報告本來我今天下午3點有約院長就是要報告這個想法目前因為當然這個裡面我也跟陳時中政委討論過現在有一個大臣就是陳時中政委但是我們希望有一個比較專職的機構"},{"start":11933.112,"end":11955.551,"text":"他不政委不用來備詢阿對,我們希望在院裡面設立一個專職的一個特別的機構然後來整合各部會因為招數化是一個國安問題而且越來越嚴峻對所以不能用那個跨部會的協調機制去面對這個險峻的國安問題沒錯,他應該是一個很所以我還是想跟你一樣是要有一個政府一個專職機構統籌預算統籌人力對針對問題解決問題對"},{"start":11961.584,"end":11981.089,"text":"那您今天下午再跟對我們是希望成立一個人口對策委員會它不只是少子化的問題包括我們現在對勞動力的需求的問題還有國家未來競爭力的問題還有甚至將來影響到國內消費跟繳稅的問題把它當成一個重大的議題去看待跟它一個國家安全的問題對那國家未來的這個競爭力我們今天討論到新創"},{"start":11985.842,"end":12013.49,"text":"新創的這個資金面你看國發基金去年度新創天使投資區域分部這個集中在北部我剛剛說集中在北部你們投了40家31家然後南部幾乎沒有所以我上會期才希望你們有一個創投工會設一個南部辦公室有南部辦公室可以統合或去協助這個新創產業在南部生根發展茁壯嘛你看連土壤都沒有"},{"start":12014.366,"end":12037.64,"text":"通常都沒有他怎麼去深耕茁壯呢所以資源分配的不均這個很重要這個立刻去導正好的並不夠大也是一個問題現在你這個國發基金裡面針對新創的這個資金才8億這些都是年輕人都有未來性都有理想性但是他們缺少的就是資金那國發會128億的經費你們只有給了8億太保守"},{"start":12043.7,"end":12064.014,"text":"也對這些年輕人這個創業這個提供太少的協助所以比要做大我是希望說在你的任內可以每年增加最起碼一年要20億20億對他們才能增加比較多的這個新創事業的協助你現在一年才40家我希望說一年可以到100家"},{"start":12066.833,"end":12089.314,"text":"我同意委員的看法我們會來滾動式的把它調整那第二個事情是我們看起來在均衡的部分做得不夠那我們也會再強化在...要盡快!這個均衡...這個失衡的現象不是現在才存在已經存在很久了創造公司從來沒有在南部有創造公司中部也沒有然後沒有一家你們扶植的這個西方世界是南部的這個公司"},{"start":12091.018,"end":12103.582,"text":"好 這個我來改善而且這8億太過保守所以我希望你可以到20億每年增加到這個扶植100家的新創事業好 我來我們來做一個調整另外另外這個"},{"start":12108.154,"end":12133.64,"text":"你們的這個新創聚落跟這個創業加速器它分布也是有中北、青南這部分我提醒你們一下新創聚落你要多一點在南部集中在新北、台北跟桃園比例很高六都的比例很高那這個加速器的據點也都是如此集中在台北市經濟委員會大部分都是來自於這個中南部委員"},{"start":12135.307,"end":12156.986,"text":"高雄就有四個立委都是來自於這個高雄還有台南還有嘉義所以你的這個我們如何對這個年輕人這個新創產業他們想要在高雄在台南去深耕築藏政府沒有給他們的這個任何的席組啊所以這個部分啊再請主委特地要要好的這個我們會會依據我們總統軍人台灣的政策來做調整"},{"start":12160.868,"end":12186.616,"text":"跟強化那新經濟移民法有沒有再評估再重新啟動因為事實上新經濟移民法大部分的法令都已經在纜財專法裡面了所以我們基本上會強化纜財專法繼續往下走你覺得纜財專法目前有發揮它的這個法律功能跟政策功能嗎它需要再優化所以我們目前在跨部會協商中很快就會公告然後送院"},{"start":12187.952,"end":12215.341,"text":"所以我希望從以前開始我現在有提案我也可以拿出來審但我希望你們要支持如果你們現在的染財方案沒有辦法整合所有的資源然後效果有限的話我會考慮要把我的新基民法這個拿出來審給你們更大的壓力才能有更強的動力來正式面對這個缺工的問題全世界都在搶人才高階藍領都在搶"},{"start":12217.182,"end":12236.466,"text":"那台灣你現在的攬財、流財方案我覺得太過於保守而且成效有限那為什麼不立一個專法來整合各部會的資源然後開放創新然後讓國家讓世界各國人才能夠聚在台灣主委"},{"start":12237.54,"end":12257.154,"text":"好,我想委員的提示我收到了,我回去也研究一下那個當時您的法案,我們來看看怎麼樣更強化,在送出之前,我們會再,也許可以再優化。好,稍微要,稍微要以先作主了。好,我先到,下次有機會再問,來。好。謝謝。好。"},{"start":12274.271,"end":12277.713,"text":"稍微都以身作則來,下一位質詢請吳聰臣有請國發會請國發會留諸位"},{"start":12302.829,"end":12319.579,"text":"主委好現在這個課題你應該很熟悉我現在要講的東西就是超高齡社會到處85天但是不是85天我也搞不清楚因為國發會大家都在等國發會"},{"start":12321.04,"end":12345.772,"text":"剛才聽到那個我們召委提到的少子化少子化的議題那其實我要談的這個議題兩面像主委是國發會是這件事情非常關鍵的單位那當然就剛才提到未來臺灣30年最重要的事情就是人口的問題高齡化跟少子化這為國安問題所以重責大任就在國發會"},{"start":12347.608,"end":12358.69,"text":"但是呢這個每年八月的時候國發會沒有兩年一次那但是今年的人口推估這個大家都會關注的因為"},{"start":12360.278,"end":12376.627,"text":"預測的是2025年超高齡社會來臨就倒數85天了但到現在國發會的這個人口推估為什麼到現在沒有公布的原因是什麼有幾個原因第一次他們拿給我的時候我希望他們去也同時比較一下國際發展的趨勢"},{"start":12378.368,"end":12396.037,"text":"我想你我都是產業出來的人關起門來自己看是不對的那我們希望多一點數據的收集然後我們來做好的判斷第二次希望他們能夠我們希望不是只有公告這個數字可能帶一點我們的想法有一些對策因為我只有4分鐘所以我就單是聽說問題比預測的本來預測的更為嚴重是不是這樣子"},{"start":12404.26,"end":12419.605,"text":"呃 基本上的確是 呃 比較 比較 比上一次是會有一些 比較嚴重齁 值得警惕的 齁 對所以就是 沿著以待 但是我們過去因為只公告 沒有想法 那我們希望這次公告帶著想法 非常肯定這個主委這樣的想法齁"},{"start":12420.922,"end":12443.38,"text":"那這個我在總質詢的時候這個那個主委跑出來就駕然後那個提出一個人口對策但是我看今天的這個國發會的整份報告書都沒有提到人口對策的問題其實我今天約了院長下午3點要跟他報告這件事我建議這件事就是"},{"start":12444.621,"end":12465.509,"text":"那我也跟陳時中政委提了這件事情那我們在上個禮拜五的中午其實我們我們中午是沒有休息啊這個諮詢的之後我們就在行政院開會把各部位都找來我們針對怎麼樣鼓勵鼓勵結婚到鼓勵生育到後面這一段但是因為為什麼要從人口政策來看不是只有少子化的問題"},{"start":12466.609,"end":12484.498,"text":"問題,包括將來您講的壯世代的問題,包括未來整個消費人口的減少,要一整體性,所以我們希望是一個人口的對策。好,所以呢,現在呢,當然是我來談的壯世代政策,一直談的,它不僅是高齡的政策,"},{"start":12485.038,"end":12512.534,"text":"他也是全面政策那現在行政院就有那個陳時中政委有一個壯世代政策小組現在已經有13個部會加入這個小組了那但是呢現在他們提出64個計畫但是基本上都是現狀的現有的政策缺乏前瞻性那這個就在國發會就是規劃包括人口的這一個國發會可以幫幫忙嗎在這件事情上面"},{"start":12513.482,"end":12533.171,"text":"其實我跟陳政委現在開始我們這個人口出來以後我們大概有多一點比較多的互動在這上面了那我們上次開會其實我們是他有邀請我一起共同主持所以我們會願意再多來看一下怎麼來協助所以呢因為"},{"start":12534.091,"end":12553.095,"text":"因為現在這個問題就是本來陳政委那邊他在領導的這個不過在上次以後你突然提出了人口政策以後現在就是有一點到底是多頭馬車但是目前現狀這個運作是不是可以請國發會先來協助就協助這個小組因為陳政委現在在領導的這13個部會的整合"},{"start":12561.097,"end":12587.543,"text":"需要國發會的這個規劃這個是我主動找院長其實就是我們也想願意多對這個這件事多做一點付出啦所以你願意的啦對只是看起來因為我可能變成是下午3點的會要再延時間那我再來請教主委謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝主"},{"start":21532.02,"end":21532.94,"text":"市主席有請國發部主委請國發部主委"},{"start":21563.561,"end":21582.517,"text":"委員無案好 謝謝主委因為剛才12點前就要執行你尊重我們召回的決定等了兩個半小時才看到你好 OK所以我要請教一下我們國發會在2025年重大公共建設計畫札幣前瞻計畫預算是2922.5億元其中"},{"start":21592.685,"end":21606.014,"text":"公務經費是2,405億元創下近10年新高所以交通設施的話就是佔比例53.4%還有在繪畫"},{"start":21611.991,"end":21626.136,"text":"一千兩百八十點九億用於就是平均臺灣各方面的發展文中多次提到就是預算平均臺灣的發展但是當"},{"start":21627.472,"end":21647.914,"text":"但是均衡是一個空泛的名詞如何讓民眾對政治有感最重要的就是蔡政府說的前瞻計畫就是要編列高額、積水預算但是只要每次颱風過境"},{"start":21649.936,"end":21673.044,"text":"都會造成就是淹水的問題所以讓很多民眾苦不堪言所以請教主委現在我國的治水成效是否滿意明年有關治水相關的預算佔了百分之幾還有對於這筆預算預期效率評估如何謝謝"},{"start":21676.025,"end":21692.1,"text":"跟委員說明我們雖然沒有參與到這個水災的前線但是我有側面瞭解到我們在前一次的水災到這一次我們的降雨量所造成的"},{"start":21693.141,"end":21693.921,"text":"所以你是滿意?"},{"start":21720.787,"end":21734.802,"text":"現在的之水的方式如果說滿意我們就不會持續改善所以我們現在還在還是有編列預算持續去改善它那我們相信會走到讓大家滿意的那一天但是我們沒辦法一步就到位"},{"start":21735.683,"end":21745.573,"text":"好 第二個事情也跟委員報告就是說另外一個事情就是極端氣候也是一個比較嚴重的影響所以才是由總統對 但是我們秩水成效很容易受到考驗我們的職責就是要為民把關嘛確認錢都在花在包口上啦希望在對秩水的問題要可以繼續"},{"start":21758.687,"end":21763.631,"text":"經濟所以說另外在6月7日院會總執行的時候我有問過卓院長有關僑生評點制度跟流財的策略當時我們主委也有提到說國發會近期會再重新檢討整個人才的策略在盤點各國的戰略之後可能放寬就是"},{"start":21784.826,"end":21807.471,"text":"喬森的幾點．還有請問一下我們的目前的進度．到哪裡了．因為呢．人口老化也少子化．我國．人才就是越缺越大了．所以國發會在提到說．外籍勞動力在2030年．就要增加40萬人．但是呢．在我們這邊的供給．"},{"start":21810.612,"end":21827.159,"text":"給跟需求評估國發會有做到了嗎這個部分我想要請教一下給我一分鐘因為後面很多我知道但是我們要讓國發會回一下我有30秒回覆就是說我們現在已經協調完了正在進行跨部會的法規鬆綁的協調那我們最近協調完之後我們會進行公告然後送院來和"},{"start":21838.005,"end":21857.461,"text":"對,我們希望就是要招攬外,就是更多人但是我們企業更喬生,要有更多的機會我們要用民眾的納稅錢,也要達到說要流產,這樣子的話,真正的目標才達到不是說我們要預算,但是我們要達到流產的目標好,謝謝,謝謝委員,今天主委請回座"},{"start":21865.151,"end":21878.364,"text":"何俊仁、何俊仁、何俊仁不在?下一位執行請洪孟凱主席謝謝麻煩請劉主委請國會劉主委"},{"start":21886.766,"end":21915.991,"text":"主委好 主委本席要請教一個我覺得現在是一個台灣現在面臨到非常嚴峻的問題也是國發會應該要做人口推估但是三度延後發布本來應該是8月後來講9月那現在最新上午你有講說10月17號以前會來宣布而且你講的原因是說延後是希望要有答案不要只是告訴國人現象那現在預期答案有了嗎"},{"start":21917.284,"end":21936.605,"text":"我們開過了幾次會我們這麼重的問題其實歷任的前面兩位總統都說它是國安問題那我還是重申一下過去我們只負責公告我們並沒有沒有做後面的動作只是我這次我希望我們國安會也能夠多做一點事情"},{"start":21937.085,"end":21962.015,"text":"否則的話他每一任總統都會把他說成國安問題而越來越惡化認不認為是國安問題我認為他是國安問題絕對是嘛絕對是小子化高齡化絕對是各國家都面臨到絕對是那國發會為什麼很重要其實大家對於國發會很高的期待因為有小內閣之稱嘛我們也希望是說能夠把所有這一些相關的政策來做一個彙整啊那其中主委"},{"start":21964.193,"end":21971.018,"text":"112年年度最低收入戶65歲以上主占整體的比例是17%將近20%這是我國的一個現況所以"},{"start":21976.883,"end":21997.443,"text":"最低收、中低收入戶跟低收入戶的人數來講65歲以上組其實相對來講佔的比例是高的將近20%那這就代表什麼這就代表說高齡化有兩個極端的現象可能中低收入戶跟低收入戶他會佔的比例會比較高所謂的下流老人這樣的狀態"},{"start":21998.544,"end":22015.536,"text":"那另外也有人講到說中高齡者必須可能要延後退休或是二度就業但是相比日本來說65歲以上的人口勞動參與率有到25% 四分之一臺灣到目前為止只不到10% 9.9%"},{"start":22017.813,"end":22043.614,"text":"那當然這是勞動部相關應該要去協助的這個高齡就業但更重要的是國人現在在講說現在中低、中高齡者的一個就業並不是說我們不願意或說雇主他沒有去聘請而是最重要是什麼最重要的是勞動市場的友善環境沒有對於中高齡者有足夠的友善市場那這一點國發會員您有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":22045.015,"end":22060.749,"text":"這一點也是在我們整體人口政策的考量之中原因是我們要拉動這個社會就業人口我們有兩個主要的方向那除了我們攬財或是培養人才之外我們還有一個就是提高婦女的勞參率跟老人的勞參率那"},{"start":22062.831,"end":22079.117,"text":"所以我們也會針對這個問題來做改善跟實施具體的計畫那我們現在是跟各部會開始在協調怎麼去讓這件事情過得比較順利第一個職場的改善第二個老人有沒有一個好的找工作的管道"},{"start":22079.657,"end":22105.886,"text":"第三個部分是我們也要了解到他們是希望做有責任壓力的全職工作還是一個part-time能夠賺錢的工作所以我們還需要釐清很多問題所以我們希望是用整體的人口對策來做這件事那我也謝謝委員認為這是一個國安問題所以我們希望在國家發展委員會裡面在17號當天早上8點鐘我們開完會之後我們會有一個大的方向來進行往後改善的"},{"start":22106.406,"end":22132.677,"text":"所以看來您是已經知道這個問題但是還不了解整個問題的全貌包括說到底我們跟日本相比65歲以上的這個勞動人口日本是25%這個我有蓋要的去理解過原因是我們的勞退制度其實做的是比別的國家好所以這些老人並沒有那麼強的急就業的壓力那甚至很多人是提早退休"},{"start":22133.337,"end":22152.154,"text":"那這個也是一個我們怎麼吸引這些人再回來就業是我們必須去我剛剛沒有要貶低您的意思我的意思是說因為您有講到是說要去了解這一些就業它到底是要怎麼樣的偵查或是細部分析對 所以本席現在要提供一個建議是說這一點也是我來做個完結啦 喔 總結"},{"start":22154.776,"end":22176.469,"text":"請主委這邊是不是能夠給本席一個參考資料也是針對就是你針對怎麼樣促進65歲以上的中高齡者來去做增加就業的一個狀況並且協助改善他們面到問題以及我們怎樣協助改善可能不一定是國發會也許勞動部相關部會好的好不好好的謝謝謝謝彭委員來 主委請回座蕭醫師 您請黃國昌"},{"start":22190.946,"end":22191.831,"text":"可以謝謝嗎?有請主委運國二、劉主委"},{"start":22201.584,"end":22230.824,"text":"委員會主委好時間的關係我們就流暢一點進行我們國發會大概在2018年的時候30億成立綠能國家隊投資聯合再生接下來發生一堆問題當初國發基金是說公股的董事會積極的監督積極的監督我們來看一下第一個從我們的國發基金投資了以後又虧損了上百億"},{"start":22232.104,"end":22257.939,"text":"當初就有人立法委員質疑這是紓困基金還是國發基金那除了這個投資的效能非常慘不忍睹之外讓我們更痛心的事情是我們的經濟部工業局把地給了聯合再生結果他竟然違約去套利2.63億元當初的這個交易我們來看一下"},{"start":22259.577,"end":22285.952,"text":"出售的金額高達4.26億為什麼沒有提起董事會討論?國發基金派了董事在幹嘛?委員據我了解我們有董事會有在董事會上提出意見但是因為我們只有一票那我現在的做法跟您報告一下我們已經進行退場機制8月27號開始啟動那原因很簡單我們希望投資的公司公司治理要變好"},{"start":22286.852,"end":22304.313,"text":"那我們現在最大的問題是一席董事跟3點多個%的股份6點多個%的股份我們在公司法上面我們有一定的難度那個主委我插一個問題那個請主委是不是可以請國發基金的同仁匯貨提供我的資料我們國發基金你說只有6%多嘛但"},{"start":22305.214,"end":22326.443,"text":"你把十大股東攤開來看第一名是國發基金第二名耀華玻璃第三名到第十名加起來差不多跟國發基金第一名的持股數字一樣在這種股權結構之下我要請國發基金會後提供的資料是為什麼我們是第一大股東"},{"start":22327.643,"end":22348.372,"text":"在股東會的時候我們的表決股權是怎麼行使的竟然只選了一席董事您懂我的意思嗎?我懂你的意思後面有很多連一趴都沒有的都可以當選董事我們是第一大股東竟然只有一席董事我們是把表決權數的股數去支持其他人嗎?"},{"start":22349.474,"end":22368.621,"text":"是嗎?所以委員歷次的提醒我都有關注到所以我們才會進行退場機制這兩回事啦現在要退場那我們就密切的關注他退場的機制第二個在還沒有退場以前我們國家的權益要捍衛、要主張這家公司的公司治理有嚴重的問題"},{"start":22369.981,"end":22393.154,"text":"所以主委才決定要退場所以因為我也找過律師討論過依照公司法我們能第一個依照公司治理我們只能在董事會發布發表意見我們無法去指揮對阿但是我現在要跟主委等一下等一下先停一下啦我跟主委交換的意見是阿我們派去的董事阿發表過幾次意見阿然後被人家無視"},{"start":22394.255,"end":22419.523,"text":"這個今天時間的關係我跟您報告不是無事喔我們曾經被那家公司要求生產董事我們的董事太痛苦了這個請會後是不是可以再麻煩請我們國發基金新的執行長來說明可以可以可以嗎可以那最後一個就是說我當初去年所指責的事項連我的監察院都印證說這是真的"},{"start":22421.885,"end":22443.05,"text":"亂搞亂搞這已經有違契約的規定有違契約的規定的話我們在退場以前國防經濟的董事是不是要在裡面主張該做什麼樣的事情這個是監察院的糾正報告是的這個不是我說的而已我去年記者會開的內容我們的監察院印證百分之一百全部都是真的"},{"start":22443.67,"end":22466.831,"text":"我們的國發基金在退場以前．我們派任的董事該做一些什麼事情．請主委會後書面跟我說明可以嗎?我書面給你,我們有做事。可以齁?好,謝謝。好,謝謝。來,請回座。好,謝謝。下一位質詢,陳佩瑜。陳佩瑜,陳佩瑜不在。林倩琦,林倩琦,林倩琦不在。黃建斌。請黃建斌委員質詢。"},{"start":22474.921,"end":22477.186,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請我們那個經濟部次長經濟部何市長"},{"start":22484.592,"end":22504.353,"text":"委員市長我們先緩衝一下剛剛的議題我們現在剛走過來的時候下雨剛才遇到下雨我就想到上個禮拜我們山脫颱風的情況有些問題我想請教一下市長市長上次楷米颱風重創南部當時中央給高雄的淹水補助是一戶兩萬塊對不對那這次山脫颱風不只重創南部"},{"start":22507.916,"end":22525.204,"text":"臺東縣的太馬里跟金峰鄉兩個鄉各自災情慘重為了要救助我們的災民臺東縣政府啟動這個三頭二颱風災後專案救助計畫提供給淹水的受災戶最高一戶一萬五然後另外再加碼三千元的這個財損那總共是一萬八但是絕對不夠,連八塊都不夠,連清水也不夠"},{"start":22530.026,"end":22547.6,"text":"那這個部分是不是跟我們的縣長也大聲祈福說希望中央也能夠比照開明颱風時間期間對中央部的補助然後給每個受災戶加碼到兩萬塊那針對特殊身份者再另外加碼讓我們的宅民能夠盡快的恢復生活那市長昨天我們賴總統去他的故鄉萬里勘災他也宣佈說比照開明颱風期間"},{"start":22552.303,"end":22575.452,"text":"補助我們金山萬里地區的受災戶那要更換這個節能電器啊﹐可以補助50%﹐最高到50萬另外經營生意的店家﹐如果面臨到商品受損﹐必須有這個經費來補貨﹐也可以去營養貸款那經濟部會補助利息6個月﹐高達50萬那今天補兌回來我今天要要求市長一件事情﹐就是臺東縣比照凱米臺豐跟總統故鄉這樣子﹐比照他們辦理先補兌一下這個"},{"start":22583.085,"end":22601.578,"text":"我們會全國一致我會朝這個方向市長因為台東這一次不只是淹水還土石流還有土石流那我想我們要趕快讓居民回復正常的生活之外我們台東縣的財源並不是這麼充裕希望作用大力的協助那不要有城鄉的差距再次再拜託市長"},{"start":22602.939,"end":22622.098,"text":"另外,這次的電價政策急轉彎,經濟部近日宣布,我們菸草製造業、批發零售業,改調到14%。醫療院所餐食外匯集團散承包業花蓮旅宿業者動漲,其中花蓮旅宿考量災後會遇到颱風,參考0403地震後的災後電費優惠,決定不再調漲。"},{"start":22626.022,"end":22652.671,"text":"本席覺得把資源放在花蓮來協助花蓮這是對的,我們也理解但是其實臺東的情況也沒有好到哪裡去花蓮有難,臺東不會好樹花公路、北圍鐵路中斷臺東產業也會跟著倒霉現在臺東的觀光業者也是在哭哭地在吐這次又遇到門山魁梧的重創臺東觀光產業需要更需要來協助市長,這個部分是不是能夠也要求比照花蓮縣來動長"},{"start":22655.038,"end":22661.817,"text":"這個部分我想我們會反映給行政院那由行政院那邊來同盤來考量是"},{"start":22664.198,"end":22688.934,"text":"次長其實本席會來這邊是早上其實我們在內政的時候有提過相關的問題那劉思芳部長也引諾說會來協助各部會來協助臺東整體的整個災害復建那這邊我也再次照我們委員會來再拜託一下次長將相關的問題帶到會裡面來協助我們臺東縣這次的災害重建那以上也請次長跟相關部會來協助謝謝"},{"start":22691.383,"end":22693.524,"text":"主席主席好 有請次長請經濟部何市長"},{"start":22719.768,"end":22744.056,"text":"委員好次長好我想這個新創產業跟中小企業的範圍應該不是僅限於我們直覺上的這些文創啊科技也事實上有很多零售嘛娛樂啊、旅書業面向蠻廣的對嗎是對所以我們也知道這次中小和新創企業也都有機會被這波工業電價調漲所波及那我們看一下這個PPT"},{"start":22745.356,"end":22768.591,"text":"撇除這些行業外工業電價跟這些產業電價部分調漲了14%那行業類別相當多並非真的是離我們生活很遠或是行業很線索次長認真看是不是很多都在我們報告的範圍內所以我想要問的次長的問題就是說你認為業者會不會因為擔心成本上升未來可能會轉嫁到一般人民的身上"},{"start":22770.866,"end":22786.513,"text":"因為每一個產業它的狀況不太一樣那當然我們也經過計算這個其實對整個物價的影響其實是有限的對整個CPI的我知道你們寫你們是說0.03%是是是對但是我想要提醒次長的是"},{"start":22787.906,"end":22807.435,"text":"這個會有預期心理所以其實工業電廠在這一次漲14%這已經累積這三年來漲了66.27%我想這個心態上會有預期再漲也有可能會有預防性的轉嫁的效果導致一次漲足推升這個物價我要請次長密切的注意這樣的預期心理那"},{"start":22809.316,"end":22826.257,"text":"經濟部也預估說這次你們說0.03%可是其實你剛剛提到這數字我是覺得不是很合理啊第一個官方統計數據通常都低估喔更何況0.03是指今年對物價的影響現在已經10月了那有沒有對明年預估應該要比較合理吧這方面有估算嗎"},{"start":22827.246,"end":22850.153,"text":"我們會再估算所以目前沒有這方面的估算對不過我們整體來看其實它對就是因為有一些條件的動漲或漲一半或是有一些產業它其實是因為目的世界主管機關的有一些補貼給這個台電所以我想我們整體的考量尤其又是這個一些住戶或小店家都不漲的情況之下應該對整體物價來講應該是有限的"},{"start":22851.934,"end":22880.892,"text":"我想這個次長我覺得這個0.13應該是低估了其實我想要也想要請問一下我們國發會主委你也是這個評估主委好我想你也是評估這個通膨的單位首長颱風過後這個農漁業的產品的災損之後造成價格上升請問農委有沒有和農委會討論一些物價穩定的措施另外這個九月份的核心通膨率目前是"},{"start":22881.352,"end":22895.932,"text":"人在1.82%總體的通膨率大概是2.5可是10月份還有電價調漲的因素明年開始又有調整基本工資所以我想要問部長是不是這個真正的通膨怪獸會在10月份之後才會來呢?"},{"start":22898.323,"end":22926.891,"text":"這個是有分成短期因素跟長期因素我先跟您報告一下我們現在是有一個物價督導小組我們會針對物價的波動這是核心通膨以外的通膨是屬於高波動性的像黃小玉、黃豆、小麥、玉米這些我們現在都有定期偵測包括雞蛋等等還有麵粉那的確短期目前看起來是問題不是那麼大但長期的確國際行情有一點小風險"},{"start":22928.38,"end":22947.13,"text":"對,所以主委我跟你說這一次你們其實蘋果屋的模型跟4月份主計處的模型就不太一樣主計處的說法是產業用電漲3%的話CPI會漲0.05%所以照這次調整來看CPI應該會多0.2%以上那央行在4月那坡12%也有預估CPI年增大概是0.23"},{"start":22948.19,"end":22971.561,"text":"所以我在想這個部分你們是不是應該統合一下確定一下究竟影響有多少就不要導致說你現在嘴巴上說0.03就最後因為有預期心理整體就往上拉高了他是兩個認定基準不同的概念0.2我們跑出來模型也在0.2以下大概0.18他主要是指一個區間那現在經濟部講的是一個更短的區間所以"},{"start":22972.403,"end":22989.421,"text":"那是不一樣的最後我還是想要幫這個我們大家生活中的社區藥局爭取是不是也納入這個電價動漲的範圍因為社區藥局在疫情的時候以協助防疫從這個發口罩、快篩、疫苗、抗病毒藥等等的業務都相當的辛苦"},{"start":22990.101,"end":23002.836,"text":"現在你可以看一下我的PowerPoint最後因為已經有藥商直接跟這個藥局說可能在藥的上面要漲價部分藥品要漲價因為電價調漲的原因這部分可不可以請你們慎重的考慮納入這個動漲的行列"},{"start":23004.946,"end":23025.675,"text":"好 再回答我們那個台電副總是說那個藥局應該不會受影響因為他是表態用電應該不再但是現在已經有藥局跟我們反映說這一波漲已經有那個藥商要跟他漲這個藥費了那這部分麻煩你們瞭解一下狀況好不好跟廖委員說明一下好 謝謝 謝謝廖委員來請回座"},{"start":23031.073,"end":23047.999,"text":"賴思寶、賴思寶、賴思寶不在、郭志強、郭志強、郭志強不在、林楚芸、林楚芸、林楚芸不在、高金素美、高金素美、高金素美不在、鍾佳斌、鍾佳斌、鍾佳斌不在、黃文輝、黃文輝、黃文輝不在、林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲不在、蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉不在、劉許廷、劉許廷、劉許廷不在"},{"start":23051.957,"end":23070.487,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場之外,區域均勻發言完畢,詢問答案結束由委員黃建斌、羅志強所提書面質詢,我們列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢以及未及答覆部分,請相關單位於週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程處理完畢,謝謝大家,現在散會"},{"start":23101.531,"end":23104.152,"text":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":23130.886,"end":23131.954,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部次長就「我國政府對新創及中小企業扶植政策執行狀況與未來精進措施（含政策、人才、法制、稅制、資金、區域平衡等六大面向）」進行報告，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:31:23 - 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921大地震那麼教育部從98年我們開始全面的這個普查當時在"},{"start":2242.928,"end":2263.419,"text":"這個九二一大地震之前所蓋設的這些校舍那麼總共有一萬七千多筆的提供教學使用涉及到安全的一些這個教學空間那麼從98年這個到111年總共投入了1315億元完成了補強6691棟以及拆除"},{"start":2272.225,"end":2275.179,"text":"涉及這一個安全危險的一個校舍2097棟"},{"start":2277.742,"end":2305.391,"text":"那麼一二年至一四年再投入八十二點三億持續辦理六十四棟補強及八十八棟的拆建工程在本部及地方各地方政府配合積極督導與協助下以完成耐震能力改善的學校校舍以近年歷史地震經未發生結構性震損顯示計畫的一定的一些成效"},{"start":2306.792,"end":2324.062,"text":"其四、考量校舍隨時逐步老化為進一步強化校舍的安全在未來規劃部分本部也已經在13年8月8日韓報行政院申請公立國民中小學老舊校舍拆除、重建計畫"},{"start":2325.441,"end":2344.555,"text":"一、四至一一七年度計畫總經費三百五十億分別包括公共公建經費一百七十三億各地方政府依補助比例編列地方配合款八十六億及行政院一般性補助款九十一億希望透過爭取公建"},{"start":2345.786,"end":2372.173,"text":"預算以及行政院的一般補助款的挹注能夠加速校舍的一個整建工程最後本部將持續守護孩子的健康透過供應國產乳品增加學童每週飲用乳品次數打造孩子們良好的一個生長基礎期待孩子們養成良好的飲食習慣快樂的成長同時考量校舍隨時"},{"start":2373.813,"end":2395.232,"text":"隨著時間的推移,仍會逐步老化,產生危險且有鑒於地震的發生,且順發性極難以預料為確保校舍安全無疑,保障學校師生的安全本部將在既有的基礎上,再爭取行政院的經費益助,以地方政府共同協助"},{"start":2396.013,"end":2412.117,"text":"提升整體校舍安全,打造一個讓學生安心學習、快樂成長的校園環境以上報告,懇請大院委員持續給予本部支持及指導謝謝好,謝謝鄭部長的口頭報告接下來我們請農業部的杜次長進行報告報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2429.973,"end":2451.451,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天大院教育文化委員會召開會議農業部應邀列席委員會就推動學校採用國產可溯源儒品專案實施計畫辦理情形提出專案報告並得聆聽各位委員的著見深感榮幸慶請各位委員給予指教"},{"start":2452.572,"end":2473.832,"text":"根據衛生福利部國民健康署2017年到2022年國民營養健康情況變遷的調查國內7到12歲的學童乳品普遍攝取不足該年齡的學童平均鈣的攝取量亦遠低於足夠的攝取量依據我國每日飲食指南乳品為食物中主要提供鈣質"},{"start":2475.453,"end":2478.975,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":2497.967,"end":2518.17,"text":"學校導入國產可溯源乳品的專案實施計畫希望藉由部會的協作提供學童國產優質乳品也提供好的鈣質來源希望學童主動飲用乳品均衡營養能夠將整個效果來達到那計畫的重點大概有三個第一個是供應的對象"},{"start":2519.111,"end":2535.688,"text":"是全國公立小學及其共產的附設幼稚園那供應的品項大概有三種第一個是國產的鮮乳第二是國產的保酒乳那對於乳糖不耐症的學童我們就提供國產的優質涵蓋豆漿所以這個品項一共有三種"},{"start":2536.929,"end":2558.196,"text":"經費來源在保久乳的部分每坪14元,鮮乳因為運送需要由冷鏈設施所以再加2元,所以在鮮乳的部分是每坪16元。113年所需要的經費由行政院核定本部養牛產業全面升級轉型計畫向下支應7.1億元,114年起就由本部及教育部共同來分擔。"},{"start":2559.076,"end":2585.566,"text":"那目前辦理的情形大概可分三個面向跟各位委員報告第一個是公共供應企業的採購的部分在8月12號起供國產鮮乳、國產寶酒乳及國產涵蓋豆奶的公共供應企業的採購那其中呢國產鮮乳跟國產的寶酒乳分別在113年9月9號、9月12日就依照這個評選的方式有評選出可以供應的廠商那並於在9月23號已經把這個"},{"start":2589.151,"end":2605.258,"text":"結果在公共工程委員會的公共供應契約平台已經上網所以可以供各縣市政府來採購至於涵蓋豆漿的部分因為市面上的生產廠家比較少目前正在辦理採購程序預計在10月底前可以全面供應"},{"start":2606.847,"end":2631.646,"text":"二、召開說明會：除了本部及教育部的協作之外：在7月31日有就縣市政府召開研商會議,收集各縣市政府對於執行這項計畫所需要的一些基本元素及建議。在9月24日確定得標廠商後,再一次由行政院的食安辦邀請本部、教育部及各縣市政府再次召集地方的說明會,希望整體推動能更順利。"},{"start":2633.307,"end":2660.814,"text":"第三、舊供應品項及目前供應狀況供應品項部分國產鮮乳得標廠商有3家可以供應4個品牌詳細請看書面報告國產薄酒乳部分有4家得標其中有可以供應5個品牌細節請各位參與報告國產豆漿部分目前尚未決標但不管怎樣得標品項確實要符合我們能夠提供足夠的鈣含量品質必須相當於乳品的"},{"start":2661.374,"end":2678.341,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行"},{"start":2687.265,"end":2708.544,"text":"先如必須要有冷藏冷鏈的設備能夠補充所以在公共供應契約也已經要求至於不只是在全程冷鏈運送他也要提供保冷袋他可以保冷兩小時的部分提供給學校來做比較好的一個運送那詳細資料也請看書面那我想結語是說這個專案是對於確保學童飲用國產的優質乳品及足夠蓋設取量"},{"start":2713.248,"end":2730.718,"text":"一則也是希望能夠提升對於我們國產乳品的使用率希望學童能夠享用到最新鮮的國產乳品那也希望透過這樣子消費端的拉抬讓我們的乳牛產業更健全也符合本部推動食農教育的目標請大院的委員可以支持謝謝"},{"start":2736.089,"end":2736.55,"text":"報告時間3分鐘"},{"start":2756.25,"end":2779.496,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天應邀就中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向進行專案報告致感榮幸臺灣位處地震活動頻繁的環太平洋地震帶為維護師生安全中央自1998年起以各項裁員協助高中以下學校加速改善校舍耐震能力"},{"start":2780.396,"end":2804.792,"text":"以下僅就近年校舍耐震補強主要計畫編列情形,簡要說明如下第一項是九八至一百年度加速高中及國中老校舍及相關設備補強整建計畫主要是系統性的推動88年以前新建之國中小耐震能力出品、詳評以及補強或重建作業經行政院核定"},{"start":2805.672,"end":2827.756,"text":"以特別預算加速辦理由教育部編列373億元第二項是101至105年國中小校舍耐震能力評估補強及設施設備改善計畫是依據前項計畫辦理出評及詳評結果就耐震能力指標分數較低之校舍優先進行補強改善由教育部編列100億元"},{"start":2832.677,"end":2861.236,"text":"第三項是106-108年公立國中小校舍耐震能力及設施設備改善計畫是持續就上有安全疑慮之校舍辦理補強由教育部編列176億元持續再辦理第四項是109-111年度的公立高級中等以下學校耐震能力改善計畫是為完成校舍耐震能力改善的最後一塊拼圖由教育部編列63億元"},{"start":2863.117,"end":2872.342,"text":"又就教育部說明本計畫結束後現行高中以下學校則校舍均符合內政部相關的耐震物、耐震建築的設計規範"},{"start":2874.95,"end":2892.36,"text":"此外,為此各地方政府對於獲配的一般性補助款運用與中央的施政項目能夠相互配合,歷年均將國中小老舊校舍經費納入一般性補助款的指定項目辦理。其中近五年度分別編列了32億元、30億元、21億元、34億元及27億元。"},{"start":2901.224,"end":2928.54,"text":"以上數額均由各地方政府依實際需要自行提出再由教育部中央的主管機關教育部來做審核以及輔導核定後來做辦理以上計畫的各項經費在98至114年度已編列超逾1000億元此外教育部考量目前遞墊頻繁因此針對五零達40年以上的校舍又數量龐大因此"},{"start":2929.58,"end":2945.636,"text":"為了加速辦理老舊校舍的整建,已經另外提出了公立國民中小學老舊校舍拆除總監計劃,課由國發會審議中本董處後續也會配合行政院的核定情形,辦理相關的裁員籌措事宜。"},{"start":2952.154,"end":2952.335,"text":"報告時間3分鐘"},{"start":2970.384,"end":2992.79,"text":"主席、各位委員先進感謝各位委員會邀請本會議列席本次會議緊究中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向提出報告的自感榮幸敬請各位委員不吝賜教中小學老舊校舍補強、整建等有助於提升校舍安全有其必要"},{"start":2994.052,"end":3015.754,"text":"教育部在113年8月8日函報行政院之公立國民中小學老舊校舍拆除重建計畫針對耐久性疑慮較高且汙齡達40年以上未補強及雖已補強但有慮離子偏高情形之校舍辦理拆除、重建整地工程"},{"start":3018.473,"end":3038.394,"text":"計畫經費350億元,經行政院秘書長8月9日交易本會本會會同相關主管機關審議,審議內容略以建請教育部仍因依規秘書長113年7月8日函氏辦理所需經費已回歸地方政府自主辦理"},{"start":3038.914,"end":3061.516,"text":"若有補助之需要﹐請由教育部各該年度教育經費內檢討編列﹐堂有不足﹐請洽本院主計總處協處本會終整會審機關意見﹐以回覆行政院秘書長﹐尊重院的決策﹐本案將依院核付結果辦理以上報告 敬請各位委員執交 謝謝"},{"start":3067.005,"end":3074.05,"text":"謝謝彭副主委口頭的報告我們現在開始進行綜合詢答每位出席委員質詢8分鐘必要時間延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分"},{"start":3084.117,"end":3107.85,"text":"委員若有臨時提案,請於上午10點30分前提出,並與本會委員吳春成委員質詢結束後,及進行處理。處理提案時,若提案委員及連署委員均不在場,原例不予處理。好,現在我們首先先請發言登記第一位,林倩琦委員質詢。"},{"start":3119.797,"end":3138.514,"text":"主席、還有我們立委同仁還有各部會的夥伴們大家早安、大家好非常感謝主席今天設定了這樣一個題目有關於這個班班有鮮奶的這樣一個準備計畫的一個瞭解跟未來執行的一個狀況"},{"start":3141.056,"end":3158.424,"text":"還有這個有關於校舍我想這個都對於我們在整個教育層面上非常的重要所以在有關於班班有鮮乳的這一件事情本席因為在7月11號然後看到有報載而且在整個教文的這個版面呢有一整系列的一個報導"},{"start":3159.204,"end":3180.085,"text":"那七月中呢其實是我們在準備開學的一個時間但是它基本上是暑假所以我就非常密切的關心這一件事那也很感謝今天有這個機會來更深度了解這裡面所談的我們其實還有在準備的部分在開學的狀況跟未來要執行的一個情形所以"},{"start":3182.708,"end":3209.765,"text":"在開學前我一直聽到有一個狀況就是這樣一個班班有鮮乳的政策那大家目前準備好的就是班班有調酒乳飽酒乳那這個飽酒乳這個部分依照今天這個相關部會準備的資料不知道我是不是現在可以請我們教育部長跟農業部今天是次長我們一起來探討這個問題好不好我們有請鄭部長還有我們杜次長"},{"start":3213.895,"end":3232.08,"text":"部長,在你們的報告裏面談到目前你們供應的有關於牛奶大概是百分之二十點七六那薄酒乳是七十五點七七percent然後這個高鈣的豆乳大概有這個涵鈣的豆乳三點四percent左右那你們知道這個數據怎麼來的嗎?"},{"start":3235.867,"end":3248.775,"text":"跟委員報告,這是7月22日這個調查來的,跟各地方政府調查。各地方政府送上來的嗎?是。那我想請問一下,布裡面是不是有那個乳糖不賴症在台灣大概有多少比例?"},{"start":3252.651,"end":3259.918,"text":"你們這邊列的那個乳糖不帶症報上來有3.4可是實際情形是這樣嗎?你們檢視的這個狀況是這是各校各地方政府報上來的嗎?"},{"start":3268.806,"end":3297.586,"text":"那你確定我們所有有關於食品有關於乳品的需求是這樣子的條件嗎這是各地方政府報上來那在七月份你們讓各地方政府報上來那七月是暑假齁然後這個需求你們確定所有的比例是這樣子嗎這個比例問題我給部裡面一個建議啦乳糖不耐症到底在台灣有學童裡面比例真正是佔多少不是說地方政府報上來喔而是"},{"start":3299.011,"end":3322.013,"text":"我直接講一個建議啦我們在施政的時候經常都是主管單位的方便性然後我們就叫相關的單位來配合所以我想確定的是這個數據是準的嗎有沒有可能因為第一你們要地方政府報上來那中間這裡面其實談到冷鏈的問題談到牛奶還有包酒乳"},{"start":3323.274,"end":3347.719,"text":"如何保藏的這個問題它有沒有可能造成大家在這個過程當中一個方便性因為你們在暑假期間教大家做這件事情那在開學的一個因應跟準備上大家來不來得及做所以它是報上來的數據它是真正的數據嗎?我們在母唐不賴鎮在台灣的數據有多少?依據我查了相關的研究在亞洲地區大概有60%"},{"start":3350.12,"end":3359.366,"text":"所以要不要查一下那所以我來接下來來問一下請問我們這個政策目標是什麼?教育部的部分跟農業部的部分我都想聽一下"},{"start":3361.09,"end":3380.121,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心也謝謝委員的提醒因為確實我們其實根據一些相關的研究就發現兒童的一個成長過程裡邊對鈣的一個補充以及蛋白質的一個補充是關係到兒童的是否能夠健康的一個發展所以"},{"start":3381.081,"end":3407.318,"text":"教育部跟農業部我們其實念茲在茲就是怎麼樣讓學童更健康嘛對不對是是是好的那我可以這邊請教一下那個農業部次長那請問您知道那個鈣的補充成分有哪一些嗎來源其實鈣的來源乳、蛋、肉其實都有但是鮮乳是最方便的因為一份的鮮乳大概可以補充一天所需要是應該畢業蔬菜也有這個可能性"},{"start":3408.138,"end":3431.748,"text":"所以你們的政策目標是不是教育部跟農業部也是一樣嗎?農業部你們的政策目標是什麼?當然是希望我們的學童能夠有得到更多的營養。希望學童更健康嘛。是的。那我想了解一下,所以在我們這個希望學童更健康的政策概念下,那農業部你們跟這個什麼乳牛產業的這個升級計畫跟這個這件事情的關係是什麼?你們用的經費是哪邊來的?"},{"start":3432.668,"end":3454.978,"text":"因為這樣子 如果能夠提升第一個 剛剛委員提到的就是說蓋的來源當然有很多種但是鮮乳是最方便的一份鮮奶就可以提供我們一天所需要大概50%的蓋量是 好 那這個部分我想請教一下你們編列了這麼多的預算那應該在今年就執行的為什麼到7月份的時候還有這麼多學校還不知道相關的配套"},{"start":3456.394,"end":3482.805,"text":"那在暑假期間我們來得及做好整體比較詳盡的準備嗎?所以在開學的時候其實還有各校牛奶喝不到那偏遠地區更是大家為什麼會有這麼高的比例選擇包酒爐呢?應該是它比較好放吧?那更細節的是當我們有這樣一個政策那相關的配套那請問那這個配套是不是大家都能夠符合?尤其是偏鄉地區"},{"start":3486.4,"end":3515.02,"text":"相關的設施、相關的人力、路程等等那我想請教一下這個配套準備好了嗎?謝謝委員的一個關心確實我們在這一學期裡面我們也起心動念就是希望說讓學童有一個更健康的一個發展那我們也期待說透過這樣的因為這樣的一個鮮乳品的一些提供確實在許多的這些各縣市"},{"start":3515.82,"end":3542.939,"text":"他這個區域跟城鄉的一些差距我們其實也希望透過這一學期的一個這樣一個推動裡面去了解各縣市的一些樣態然後作為我們政策能夠更精進的一些做這樣的一個調整跟地方來合作那委員的一個關心也正是我們所想要更進一步更精進的一個希望在未來在政策的推動"},{"start":3543.519,"end":3546.302,"text":"請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席"},{"start":3558.496,"end":3577.484,"text":"你們有這三種那這個比例真的如同填上來的嗎還是因為大家要因應教育部的政策所以填了這麼多的填了這樣一個差距很大的比例所以我建議部裡面應該把有沒有乳糖不耐症而且學童是不是每個人都適合這樣子一個政策先去做一下調查評估"},{"start":3579.565,"end":3607.117,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想這個部分乳糖不耐症這個部分我想我們會更進一步的確實在整個政策裡面的作用怎麼樣讓它更精準實質的比例跟你們政策的那個目標謝謝委員的一個提醒這我們會來我們會再進一步來瞭解好的謝謝那接下來我想問一下這個農業部那請問那個你們的這個班班有鮮乳跟紐西蘭牛乳進口的零關稅的這個相互關係是什麼"},{"start":3608.636,"end":3624,"text":"我想應該是這樣子其實我們希望第一個就是讓我們的學童有足夠的蓋設取量因為目前是遠遠不及你很關心這個學童的蓋設取量所以我們只針對推動是國產鮮乳的飲用我們希望是推動國產鮮乳的飲用讓達到營養的價值第二個但是對我們國內糯農產業也是有實質幫助"},{"start":3629.582,"end":3644.015,"text":"好的,我要這邊做個提醒我們的政策應該因應整個環境所以農業部我們在過去那個這個班班有石斑然後是因為石斑魚的狀況我們知道那時候我們所遭遇到的困難"},{"start":3644.756,"end":3645.737,"text":"中小學老舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":3667.375,"end":3668.276,"text":"中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":3697.735,"end":3698.816,"text":"謝謝林倩琴委員有請官員先回座"},{"start":3727.976,"end":3755.788,"text":"接下來我們請洪孟楷委員來,麻煩請鄭部長跟農業部常次長,杜常次好,有請鄭部長還有杜次長來,鄭部長,剛聽您回答這個林委員的講法說還要再滾動檢討事實看學校的反應來做調整"},{"start":3756.994,"end":3766.44,"text":"那不就是坐實了大家外界講說班班有鮮乳這個政策倉促上路嗎報導也講啊倉促上路然後讓大家"},{"start":3768.457,"end":3786.742,"text":"採購價低於行情又缺乏冷鏈讓所有的老師變成是要幫學生來抬鮮奶然後如果說這個鮮奶沒有到10點10分大下課的時候送到的話還要學校各自去買冷鏈、冷藏設備那不就是學校又要再增加相關的負擔中央這邊要來支應學校嗎?鄭部長"},{"start":3793.867,"end":3818.047,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提醒我們確實我們當時這一個跟農業部的合作就是我們在乎的就是希望能夠給學童有一個更好的一個發展我們都希望我身為家長我也希望給學童更好的營養但更重要是完善的營養以及後續的配套措施都市的孩子跟偏鄉的孩子都一樣的照顧"},{"start":3819.068,"end":3831.838,"text":"那你這樣子半年後你剛剛回答你自己已經承認了嘛我們要之後再來滾動檢討為什麼開學三個禮拜了還有很多的學生沒有喝到鮮奶那不就代表是說這政策是倉促上路嗎部長回答不出來要農業部來救駕"},{"start":3839.124,"end":3866.341,"text":"來,那我再請教一下今天部長為什麼沒有來?農業部部長我們部長去勘栽先勘,哪邊勘栽?有請假是不是?有請假有請假為什麼會特別這樣講?在教育部的官方網站上面農業部跟教育部給家長的一封信農業部部長還在教育部部長之上換言之這個政策到底是農業部還是教育部主推?鄭部長,要不要回答一下?"},{"start":3868.867,"end":3887.059,"text":"謝謝委員關心事實上應該是這麼講的這個整個國家的一些政策我們怎麼來看到一個跨部會共同為學童的一個健康的一個發展提供一個更好的環境那我也感謝委員的一個提醒因為我們在"},{"start":3888.496,"end":3889.297,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3912.359,"end":3940.149,"text":"這一個學童在使用所以也跟委員利用這個機會讓委員知道就是說我們為什麼說在整個希望全國的這個學童的一個健康能夠受到照顧也能夠跟地方有更緊密的這些對整個政策的一個推動跟健康照顧裡邊有一個滾動式怎麼樣跟地方合作然後能夠讓學童有更好的一個發展部長你剛講我都知道啊但你還是沒有回答到我的問題啊"},{"start":3941.704,"end":3964.381,"text":"我刻意給你時間回答可是沒有辦法回答現在75%的學校舍棄鮮奶選擇保酒爐為什麼?就是因為保存不容易嘛沒有辦法很一致性的送達嘛有沒有看到所有的老師也在反應是說如果說10點10分大下課沒有辦法送到學校的話那就變成是說至少要放在學校統一集中保管一個角落"},{"start":3964.941,"end":3979.268,"text":"那可能要等到11點之後才能分配到給學生甚至營養午餐的時候那中間從10點10分到12點那不就是還要再做保存嗎那保存責任在誰那?就在學校身上所以學校就要再採購冷藏設備是不是這樣子?"},{"start":3980.428,"end":4000.092,"text":"這些不是都是問題嗎?定價過低也是一個部分現在傳出來說寶酒乳每瓶14塊、鮮奶每瓶16元很多人也會反應是說那這樣子定價真的太低可能成本都不符合那未來你們的計畫本席看到你們今天的一個預算也是7億多所以說並沒有增加多少"},{"start":4001.84,"end":4011.856,"text":"最後本期今天跟我們的召委也有提出一個想法我想這一個可能也要請我們部長來去做思考我們看到全偏鄉其實現在台灣最優勢是什麼"},{"start":4013.234,"end":4040.815,"text":"有便利商店通路很厲害嘛山上也有便利商店海邊也有便利商店那其實它的比例比偏鄉可能都還要高那如果說在有些偏鄉真的它很難送達我們自己還要再派冷鏈車等去送達不容易的話有沒有可能研議用所謂的鮮乳匯換券讓學校老師就近在偏鄉的超市或者是這個市場、超商來去做匯換"},{"start":4042.281,"end":4069.562,"text":"能不能這樣子來演繹未來檢討的方向謝謝委員的提醒事實上因為我們在這一個政策的一個推動我們也跟地方政府確實有保持了一定的這一個互動所以也跟委員報告這也是說我們希望在整個政策的執行有更均勻剛才委員所提的也是我們內部裡邊來自於各地方反映包括學校你也聽到很多地方反映嘛對不對"},{"start":4071.043,"end":4079.765,"text":"納入我們在未來可能的一個滾動式修正的一個方案之一已經開學一個月了,什麼時候我們全台的學生都可以喝到鮮奶?目前跟委員報告,我們大概已經完成採購的有10個...沒關係,你只要告訴國人時間點嘛,11月底前、12月底,能不能?"},{"start":4094.273,"end":4122.392,"text":"總是要確認這政策上路一個多月今天不是學校現在才成立其實部長為什麼本席會那麼關心還有為什麼會質疑你說在滾動檢討學校不是一天出現的學校早就在那邊今天是農業部為了說紐西蘭的這個鮮奶要進口所以說要照顧弱農我想支持本土產業沒有意見但重點是你們提出政策半年了你們應該想好相關的配套"},{"start":4124.116,"end":4133.246,"text":"本席現在只想問全國人民想知道今年這個學期什麼時候全台灣的學生能夠享受到班班有鮮乳或是班班有保舊乳"},{"start":4135.552,"end":4135.572,"text":"是嗎?"},{"start":4158.639,"end":4185.501,"text":"沒關係,等一下我們稍微一定還有這個問題我覺得這個態度稍微很難接受啦來,農業部我先請教一下灌水牛怎麼會發生這樣子的一個狀況而且更重要的是上禮拜突然出現灌水牛的這樣的一個新聞還是我們的房檢署的獸醫發現結果房檢署居然表示說這個灌水牛沒有問題把內臟拿掉之後肉品還是可以進入市場"},{"start":4187.016,"end":4213.296,"text":"報告委員這應該是有兩個層次的問題第一個我們在全國13家牛的屠宰場其實都有裝設錄影設備那房檢署是每個禮拜都要把這些錄影設備全部再開放雖然當場都有圖檢獸醫師在場但是就怕有漏網所以他們是每個禮拜都會把這些錄影再拿來看如果發現違法的狀況就會回追那我想請教上禮拜發生這個是在桃園地區的一個屠宰場對不對"},{"start":4214.557,"end":4234.906,"text":"有灌水牛的事件有民眾就講是說他硬生生在40秒內被灌入了30公斤的水他可能是灌80公斤但是他最後增加的是30公斤也因此他的不法暴利一隻牛如果說以他整個這樣子來算的話他一年可能不法暴利可以獲得近千萬"},{"start":4237.079,"end":4252.51,"text":"你剛剛也提到了就是說我們都有監視器沒有錯所以說我們有看到新聞畫面有看到畫面但本席更想問的全國人民更想關心的那這是第一案嗎他這一家屠宰場已經多久用這樣子非法的行為了"},{"start":4253.544,"end":4276.074,"text":"有沒有去了解應該這樣說這件事情是違反兩個法號第一個是違反動物福利法因為這是違反動物福利的事情這絕對不允許所以第一個要開法是違反動物福利法第二件事是它也違反屠宰作業準則因為牛隻就是不應該被這樣子灌水去不管任何目的增加重量還是更多的所以本席現在問的是這一家廠商過去有沒有不良紀錄"},{"start":4278.967,"end":4288.414,"text":"如果有查到的一定都會發過去他這樣子進行這樣的狀況因為我們看那個員工以及看那個畫面其實他是很駕輕就熟的"},{"start":4289.727,"end":4314.416,"text":"所以你很難讓人家相信是說他上個禮拜發生的是第一起喔他可能過去已經用這樣的一個手法已經獲得許多不法暴力了那我們要問的是說既然有裝監視器那為什麼可以你剛剛也親口承認每個禮拜都會去檢查監視器的畫面但沒有想到到上個禮拜才發現那代表過去有多少頭牛隻已經被不法的手段灌進了水"},{"start":4315.496,"end":4343.784,"text":"這個部分其實桃園市政府正在調查因爲整個案子是已給桃園市政府什麼時候可以出來調查報告我們也很關心因爲我們覺得這樣子的事情是不能容許那其他的12個縣市的12個屠宰場12個屠宰場全台13個只有這一個那其他屠宰場有沒有再去做一個釐清一定都要清查一定都要什麼時候做了因爲每個禮拜都有看那個錄影帶你剛也講了啊就說每個禮拜都有做但是很明顯的13分之1的這一家屠宰場就在你們的眼皮底下發生了這種灌水事件啊"},{"start":4345.219,"end":4368.438,"text":"我想這個需要再精進就是說第一個就是錄影機設置的位置有沒有需要再做...市長能不能在今天下班前告訴本席也讓國人知道是說我們農業部針對上個禮拜其實已經三天的時間過去了到底做了什麼樣的作為那還有就全台灣13家拖延廠是不是有類似的情況是不是做個釐清好 違反作為準則已經開罰了那桃園市政府那邊我們會繼續追進謝謝好 部長 來鄭部長"},{"start":4371.781,"end":4396.873,"text":"最後一個問題一分鐘我想今天很重要還是耐震補強的部分我們覺得耐震補強當然應該做尤其是關心到學童的一個安全那更重要的是到底提出來的這個計畫有沒有能夠含瓜到全部因為我們現在看到全台灣光50年以上的老舊校舍以新北市來講就有差不多200棟"},{"start":4398.843,"end":4417.265,"text":"你這邊有算喔還要再跟行政院爭取350億的一個預算要推動319棟的整建是重建200棟跟整地119棟那隔光新北市其實就已經200多棟啊所以換言之全台灣到底有多少50年以上的老舊校舍2200棟左右對不對"},{"start":4420.401,"end":4445.602,"text":"跟委員報告我們在過去從98年到111年這裡面投入了1300多億主要就是解決這一個921大地震當時我們等於說教育部有全面普查老舊教室有涉及到必須要耐震補強或者必須要拆除的那為什麼跟委員補充這一個數據就是說因為這一個"},{"start":4449.461,"end":4475.911,"text":"這個普查以後經過初期的評估跟專家的負評以後總共這個期間總共除了改善這個補強跟這個拆建有8788棟這裡邊就是第一個階段在921大地震之前所蓋的學校部長能不能針對本席的問題回答問題這包含全國2000棟以上部長我可不可以請教一下您到底有沒有經看過這樣的一個數字"},{"start":4477.452,"end":4482.256,"text":"本席提一個荒謬點就好啦98年到111年是幾年14年14年裡面1315億聽起來很多但你總共做了多少6691棟跟2097棟平均一棟多少錢"},{"start":4497.903,"end":4516.629,"text":"一千四百萬而一百一十二年到一百一十四年八十二點三億補強幾棟六四棟拆除幾棟八十八棟平均一棟多少錢五千四百萬而接下來你們要再做什麼要再做三百五十億要補強多少"},{"start":4517.796,"end":4546.273,"text":"要補強200棟跟拆除190棟平均一棟多少錢?1.1億換言之你的成本其實持續在增加所以本席今天要跟你探究的是看未來不是講過去過去歷任政府大家都在做我們也共同支持但我們希望的是未來要提出相關的計畫做長遠的判斷尤其是超過50年以上的老舊校舍應該做一個系統性的計畫性的來去做整體的考量"},{"start":4546.893,"end":4573.922,"text":"這樣可以嗎?跟委員報告,謝謝委員的一個提醒但是我要跟委員報告的是50年以上如果他沒有安全上的顧慮事實上他可能事實上是對學生、校友是有一個共通的學習經驗性謝謝抱歉對不起喔,你們是不是可以尊重一下主席啊麻煩一下好不好,那個備詢尊重一下主席好嗎?"},{"start":4576.614,"end":4596.981,"text":"我們請剛才洪孟凱委員所問的事情,那部長會後,因為我們時間已經超過了,能不能用書面仔仔細細、詳詳細細地去回答洪孟凱委員,好不好?那不然等一下,如果我們至此的時候,請部長要稍微把時間掌控一下。以上,謝謝。接下來我們有請陳培鈺委員"},{"start":4601.994,"end":4628.545,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請部長跟農業部次長 謝謝好 有請鄭部長跟我們杜次長好 部長、次長辛苦了我想今天很多人都要談論班班有鮮奶但是我覺得我想要回到最根本的源頭我們當時之所以要做這個事情其實有一個很重要的原因其實就教育部的角色是希望提供學童營養的部分 對不對部長這個部分我的論述對嗎"},{"start":4631.106,"end":4659.343,"text":"謝謝部長就農業部的角色我想支持國產先入始終我想不管是任何的農產品絕對是我們農業部最重要的工作對嗎?是的那如果在這兩個命題底下必須要促成跨部會的合作甚至還有在你們的業務報告裡面有提到實案辦公室甚至是拉到行政院的高度來看也就是說我相信從整個行政院到教育部或者是農業部都非常支持相關的政策而且在相關的預算上應該也給予支持"},{"start":4660.143,"end":4681.018,"text":"根據剛剛兩位所說的一些數字我們可以看到就營養支持的角度確實全民不是只有學童我要提醒一下是不是其實全民都有蓋社區不足的問題而且不管男性跟女性甚至男性的比例更高高達40%到60%這個部分我想教育部跟農業部也都非常清楚所以在這個背景底下我們再往下看"},{"start":4682.699,"end":4694.425,"text":"應該還有參考全世界其他國家的相關政策,包含英國、美國、歐洲、日本、加拿大早就有行之多年的學童乳日這件事情,這個部分我的理解是對的嗎?部長。"},{"start":4697.288,"end":4717.706,"text":"公務員報告是的好那如果其他國家都有做過類似的事情然後再加上我們剛剛說相關政策的背景第三個背景我想要來請問兩位就是其實學童乳這件事情應該如果全台灣也不是我們單獨提出這個論述但是在這個論述的政策推動下"},{"start":4718.386,"end":4746.627,"text":"會有非常多人有角色我想要請問一下兩位我認為哪些人有角色呢?第一個,酪農一定有角色,對嗎?再來,學校的老師有角色家長有角色孩子們有角色還有儒品廠商有角色,對嗎?在這麼多角色共同要支持這個政策協助這個政策推動下我相信有非常多的討論會議在進行所以我在你們的業務報告裡面看到你們提到非常非常多你們開了很多會"},{"start":4747.648,"end":4764.212,"text":"也討論了很多事情那如同很多媒體所披露的或者是剛剛所有委員所問的我想我們是不是就務實的來面對一些問題好不好好 第一個問題有人說舊酪農去化還有去化牛奶所以我們推班班有鮮乳可是我們跟農業部討論相關的數字我想要問次長我所知道對不對"},{"start":4767.893,"end":4785.22,"text":"其實以目前我們一周供應兩次國產乳品不管它是鮮乳或是做成薄酒乳其實也只佔國產牛乳產量的4%甚至不到5%所以對於外界所謂去化所謂要學校消化這件事情其實論述是有問題的,對嗎?"},{"start":4787.702,"end":4810.214,"text":"國產鮮乳絕對足夠提供給我們學童使用所以不會有去化的問題可是我甚至聽到有的縣市政府他們過往確實有提供學童鮮乳在沒有這個政策之前可是因為有這個政策是不是有一些縣市開始蠢蠢欲動想要取消原有的鮮乳那會不會擠壓了我們這個原本政策的福利的想像"},{"start":4810.888,"end":4839.758,"text":"我想就借用剛才委員的資料啦因為就我們全國的這個蓋的收取量其實遠遠遠遠低於標準量即便現在一週供應兩次其實還是遠遠低於所需要的學童營養量所以真的是誠心第一個是感謝各縣市其實在以往沒有這個政策之前其實也有提供那請千萬不要因為有這個政策而把原來的取消掉因為國產鮮乳需要大家支持第二個國產鮮乳是可以提供學童必要的營養"},{"start":4840.438,"end":4861.886,"text":"好 謝謝次長跟我們一起面對這個問題如同你說的你已經誠心的拜託各縣市政府不要取消那是不是有機會我們在後續可以持續跟各縣市政府溝通不要取消原來的鮮乳那這個部分農業部可不可以再給委員會教育文化委員會所有委員一個進度報告如何去跟縣市政府溝通不要取消原有的鮮乳再加碼繼續進訓下去好 我們很樂意"},{"start":4864.167,"end":4878.852,"text":"好 那我們辦公室也會積極追蹤這個議題我相信這件事情非常非常的重要因為可能不是被寫在媒體上但是確實是已經發生在現場的問題那我這裡也要呼籲各縣市政府請積極地在支持國產先入的角度上不要取消原有的先入再來"},{"start":4879.472,"end":4901.133,"text":"有開始有人問,其實剛剛也有委員問到關於飽酒乳跟鮮乳的問題就我們問了很多營養師,其實飽酒乳跟鮮乳的營養產值是沒有問題的可是,可是我剛剛已經說了,站在不同的角度,站在落農的角度當然會希望學童們可以喝鮮乳站在家長的角度或是站在喜歡喝冰冰涼涼鮮乳的小孩的角度,他們也想要喝鮮乳"},{"start":4901.693,"end":4921,"text":"可是我們不得不產生保酒乳這個事情我相信絕對是因為有選擇的問題、配送的問題、保存的問題可是保酒乳它確實也已經存在市面上很久了那關於鮮乳跟保酒乳的選用這個議題我是不是可以留些時間給部長或是次長回應一下消除國人的疑慮好不好"},{"start":4924.703,"end":4951.422,"text":"因為其實是我們可以提供在現在在公共工程網站上面的採購契約一共有兩種鮮乳也可以、保久乳也可以所以要如何選購或是如何選擇其實在各縣市或在各學校有不同的考量那對我們來講我們就提供各種可能的選擇不管要採購鮮乳也好、國產的保久乳也好我們都有提供這樣子的選項給各縣市跟給各學校那就依照他們的需求來採購"},{"start":4952.543,"end":4982.046,"text":"那遵照需求的部分剛剛也有委員也就是林千祺委員一直在提到說是學校在7月的時候收到資料統計但是我也有聽到開始有縣市政府說7月的時候是這樣把資料交出來可是可能他們到了10月、到了11月的時候可能孩子們的選擇或是家長們的建議可能又會把原本的訂購從包舊乳改成鮮乳甚至是把鮮乳改成包舊乳甚至還有涵蓋豆漿的部分那關於縣市政府在跟農業部跟教育部的溝通你們覺得目前遇到最大的困境到底是什麼"},{"start":4982.446,"end":4996.076,"text":"因為我們甚至也有聽到某些縣市政府他們是甚至直接要求學校你們自己去下單我們不幫你們處理那這樣子難道不會造成學校的困擾嗎那教育部跟農業部在跟縣市政府溝通目前遇到比較大的困境比較會是什麼"},{"start":5000.595,"end":5029.956,"text":"跟委員報告這主要是涉及到這一個共同供應企業上的一些那當然這也是我剛才有其他委員裡面特別提到說我們也希望有一些更精進的滾動式的一些修正因為確實各縣市在這一個上這個共同供應企業的平台裡面去下單然後到這個招標然後完成所有的手續我想這個部分我們也一直在這個請求這個地方政府啊"},{"start":5030.336,"end":5030.376,"text":"主席"},{"start":5061.617,"end":5076.424,"text":"是的,跟委員報告,確實那是我們努力的一個目標。我們希望這個政策,所有的聯環美誼到最後真正能夠加匯,能夠讓我們所有的受教的這些學童能夠有一個更好的一個健康的一個發展。"},{"start":5076.744,"end":5097.912,"text":"那最後我想要問一下有沒有可能擴及到有人在提有沒有擴及到幼兒園或國中但是因為目前還有很多問題需要調整跟討論所以是不是這個問題我們之後再跟部裡面或是跟農業部討論有沒有可能擴及到更多對象在照顧到營養跟支持國產鮮乳的論述前提底下我們去打討這個目標好不好謝謝委員好 謝謝部長 謝謝次長 謝謝主席"},{"start":5099.753,"end":5116.459,"text":"好 謝謝陳培鈺委員 請部長先回座主席在這邊補充說明一下我想今天排那個專案報告因為跟剛剛開學跟我們學生的權益很有關係不管是老舊校舍或是班班有鮮奶陳部長因為他颱風灘災所以去中南部我想現在農損相關的問題也蠻嚴重的所以他有跟本席請假所以今天由次長來代"},{"start":5127.082,"end":5145.799,"text":"那這邊跟各位這個委員來補充說明 以上好 那接下來有請萬美玲、張維 謝謝好 謝謝主席 我們有請鄭部長還有我們杜次長好 有請部長跟次長 謝謝"},{"start":5154.895,"end":5183.224,"text":"好 次長早部長次長早那我想那個部長我們這個班班有鮮奶這個政策事實上很清楚我想剛剛那個培育委員有講到一個說我們這個班班有鮮奶是想要去化這個就有沒有可能就去化什麼這個我們國產鮮奶等等什麼的但我想應該不是因為農業部很清楚你是為了因應台灣跟紐西蘭經濟合作協定那明年要上路"},{"start":5183.624,"end":5211.692,"text":"那恐怕這也是會對我們的本土弱農業有衝擊我們希望減輕一點那個衝擊所以我們提出了這個班班有鮮奶的一個政策那但是呢我想今天為什麼我這麼慎重還做了手板來我們現在說班班有鮮奶對不對然後再來呢我們現在後來變成什麼了班班有薄酒乳對不對好可是現在是什麼現在是呢不管是鮮奶、薄酒乳我們現在變成班班在等待"},{"start":5213.302,"end":5216.123,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向。」"},{"start":5228.43,"end":5228.99,"text":"直至10月1日開始起"},{"start":5259.192,"end":5264.747,"text":"跟委員報告確實在9月底之前是這一個數字那10月1號有嘉義"},{"start":5266.229,"end":5293.331,"text":"這一個加上10月4號的...有超過4成了嗎?宜蘭已經有9所縣市那應該會有4成好,我想我剛剛還有粗估幫你統計一下我想應該還是4成不到但是呢,我們原來啊這個政策就是講得很清楚嘛也就是說我們要讓我們的學童一週兩次喝鮮奶那可見現在其實它就是一個政策跳票"},{"start":5294.252,"end":5311.912,"text":"那我們不管是在這個豆漿因為我們知道有些孩子他不能夠喝鮮奶或者是剛剛說的乳糖不耐症無乳糖的鮮奶那這個標案分別都留標兩到三次還要到10月8號才能夠再開標萬一開標不順利我想教育部應該也很頭大那後面要怎麼辦這個備案出來了嗎"},{"start":5316.48,"end":5345.468,"text":"報告召委,先要謝謝召委這個既支持學童乳的政策我們答重點希望學生有鮮奶那在農業部的立場當然是照顧國產鮮奶但是這個次長請你下去那個部長如果我剛剛講的如果說今天我們豆漿跟這個無乳糖的鮮奶繼續流標那換言之就是說以我現在的數據大概我們還有十幾個縣市的學生以及我們訂豆漿和無乳糖鮮奶的孩子到時候只能看別人喝鮮奶那他"},{"start":5346.109,"end":5346.37,"text":"該怎麼辦?部長有對策嗎?"},{"start":5350.888,"end":5375.497,"text":"如果沒有沒關係,我覺得你說的沒有,我們都可以來討論,目前有嗎?跟委員報告,就是說我們這一個,不管各地方政府到最後什麼時候結標,我們那一個所提供的量一定會把它補足,大概目前...好,我跟你講,這就跟你當初那個班班有十班一樣,然後呢,本來說好的要有十班師,結果呢,沒有,一直跳一跳跳跳跳,到最後呢,一個禮拜叫他吃四天十班。部長,你可能不知道這個狀況啊?"},{"start":5377.267,"end":5391.126,"text":"你不能這樣子啊不能夠這樣子就是說我們最後沒關係嘛一天給你兩瓶讓你補完就好了不是這樣子的我覺得要有一個政策出來好 那我們再來看今天所提到的不管是在之前我就有提醒教育部這個政策是農業部出來的"},{"start":5392.447,"end":5413.755,"text":"說真的啦,我們教育部太多事情要辦了那我們今天在配合農業部的政策能對孩子好,我們也願意嘛但是部長,你有沒有想過啊我想大家也都是從這個學校,對學校也都很了解我們今天如果沒有冷鏈、沒有冷藏到底哪一個學校有這麼多的冰箱可以去冰這些鮮奶或者是去存放這個保酒乳喔你們知道嗎,現在啊我們就連保酒乳的供應量都非常的不足啊"},{"start":5419.017,"end":5424.52,"text":"國內的所有的大廠的保酒乳目前量通通不夠一個禮拜大概只夠一次這個您知道嗎?您知道嗎?根文報告我大概知道大概知道不是那麼準確的知道基本上大概有這樣的一個現象沒有這是確定的啊現在是不夠的連保酒乳都不夠那麼一週就只能一次這又再一次去跳票啦對不對好"},{"start":5443.968,"end":5451.774,"text":"那再來勒,不但是我們亮跳票我們看到,您剛提到這個共同供應契約啊我們現在變得運算是鮮奶16塊嘛,然後保九五14塊那這一些呢,其實就已經非常低了然後呢,我們這個貨運的這個運送然後到了學校的人力,您知道嗎現在因為沒有貨運運送的這個成本的這個經費在裡面那所以呢,我們打算一個月送一次去我不要講別的"},{"start":5469.727,"end":5489.105,"text":"以本席選區內全桃園市最大的中三國小你一次就要給我送一千箱去啊我還要找教室給你放啊我們沒有教室啊以前我們說運送的問題可能有偏向的問題那現在連都會區都是這樣的一個問題啊大的學校三千人小的學校一千人動輒三五百箱八九百箱到一千箱往往哪放"},{"start":5490.125,"end":5516.798,"text":"有些人就協議說我們來放教室的後面這也影響學生的空間這都是問題然後各縣市政府不管他財政狀況好不好要來幫這個政策編列人力的預算來幫忙搬送鮮奶因為我們不能造成第一線的老師、行政員員午餐殖民的困擾所以這一些都是我們要配合農業部的政策但是教育部在第一線執行的時候真的帶給我們行政員員跟教師很大的困擾部長你認為有沒有"},{"start":5519.788,"end":5526.255,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 這也是我剛才跟其他委員報告的我們希望通過這一學期實際跟地方政府的一個推動中小學的一個…確實是有造成一些困擾"},{"start":5537.546,"end":5550.9,"text":"所以你就有同理心嘛我想說老師也會很感謝你的同理心嘛所以我們要去解決這個問題嘛我們不能每一次農業部丟一個政策出來我們就開始急救張的要來配合他們如果真的做不到你要跟農業部講說給我一點時間嘛是不是你不能一頭栽進去結果咧我們承受這麼大的壓力再來"},{"start":5557.708,"end":5563.118,"text":"我想請教一下過去班班吃食班班班吃食班這件事情只有很短暫這對我們的孩子有什麼幫助我請國教署署長來回答"},{"start":5574.026,"end":5590.276,"text":"謝謝委員我簡單的說明我們從時燈平台後台來看小朋友他們午餐的菜單上在110年以前比較少餘的這個菜單在112學年吃過了一學期的班班十班之後呢他是比較明顯的成長那這個數據我們在下班前給您"},{"start":5594.096,"end":5611.066,"text":"謝謝部長所以呢因為我們有班班吃食班的政策所以孩子們開始變得喜歡吃娛樂然後或者是開始可以接受吃娛樂那這樣是好事如果真是這樣這是好事但是我們來看喔班班有鮮奶的政策今天我們變成班班飽酒辱"},{"start":5612.046,"end":5640.006,"text":"班班有鮮奶的政策變成班班有保酒乳我們真的第一個我想次長在旁邊也聽喔我們真的可以幫到我們的國產鮮乳我們的弱農嗎這是第一個問題第二個問題呢我想我們大家都有在質疑喔班班變成保酒乳其實我們就是在為未來比較這個價廉的進口保酒乳來搭橋有的孩子習慣喝這個保酒乳之後他就回不去了"},{"start":5640.586,"end":5642.509,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席"},{"start":5658.209,"end":5678.075,"text":"讓學童來幫忙救產業那真的太沉重了我們孩子就是只想喝鮮奶而已所以我在這裡提醒我想部長本期這一次剛剛我想我跟洪孟楷委員我們都有正式提案我今天有一個臨時提案我正式的要求部長不能造成我們第一線的老師跟行政院的困擾"},{"start":5679.115,"end":5699.85,"text":"過去我們在這個免費的營養午餐協助弱勢的學童當寒暑假的時候我們怎麼做各縣市政府或中央我們的做法就是我們發這個餐券營養午餐券然後到這個便利超商然後去領取他們可以食用的午餐所以呢我們要求這個政策能夠盡快立即的我們也把它改變成為發這個鮮奶券然後可以到這個便利超商也好賣場也好"},{"start":5707.475,"end":5709.778,"text":"第二、減少學校放置鮮奶空間的壓力第三、減少老師及行政員員的壓力"},{"start":5730.421,"end":5748.098,"text":"跟委員報告確實我們透過這個實際的在推動的時候也把這樣的一個在未來更精進的一個政策的執行也把委員剛才所提的也納入了一個我們思考的一個方向但是當時為什麼由學校裡邊來就是要確保我們"},{"start":5748.979,"end":5753.962,"text":"這部分有一些細節我們都還會跟地方政府裡面看怎麼樣有一個更完善的一個推動的一個方法"},{"start":5767.148,"end":5767.488,"text":"請教育部部長"},{"start":5784.149,"end":5802.221,"text":"這個政策其實從這個六、七月就開始講所以本席要求一個月之內我覺得你要去研議出來有什麼方式不要造成我們教育現場、學校現場的壓力但又可以完成農業部的這個班班有鮮奶給我們的這個政策所以一個月之內去把它研議出來積極一點好嗎?我們會努力可以齁?好,以上謝謝"},{"start":5808.339,"end":5815.065,"text":"好,謝謝部長、謝謝次長請回,謝謝萬美玲、張偉接下來有請柯智恩委員,謝謝好,謝謝,我們是不是請部長跟我們的杜次長好,有請鄭部長跟杜次長"},{"start":5833.721,"end":5847.272,"text":"兩位好我想從第一位到我這個部分大家都聚焦在有關於班班有鮮奶這樣的一個政策我想這個政策當然是一個美意不管是對孩子的健康或者是對我們弱農的一個發展我想應該是給予讚賞了但是還是一句話永遠換了一個問題就是"},{"start":5852.176,"end":5872.611,"text":"我永遠只有一個政策然後到最後淪為一個口號剛剛我們就特別提到了我記得在七月中旬的時候有一句話就是張廖次長特別是提到的每週提供兩次鮮奶一定不會打折信誓旦旦而且特別提到只有偏鄉才會喝飽酒乳那目前教育部的統計飽酒乳占75.77%部長這些都是偏鄉嗎?"},{"start":5882.591,"end":5905.21,"text":"這就是你們當初口號喊得這麼大聲就有發現需要所有的問題都出來不要說沒有冷鏈系統包括你給予的這些到時候再怎麼樣清理是不是造成所有的垃圾等等之類的都沒有好好來做討論所以讓這個美意就被打上一個折扣但是我們既然這個目標已經打出來了我們還是要看看一來怎麼解決我們來看下面那你看一下結果目前來說的話"},{"start":5909.173,"end":5918.237,"text":"部長你知道嗎?寶九乳的預算你們編的是五億兩千多為什麼絕標只有兩億?金額不到預算的一半?為什麼?為什麼?來我們次長也可以回應一下是 這個包括寶九乳或者是鮮奶的這個底價應該叫成本成本計算還加上合理論這個都是跟廠商那邊的所以嘛你們當初絕標你們絕標只有人家的一半你們就要知道問題所在那我請問14塊怎麼定出來的?"},{"start":5939.085,"end":5945.073,"text":"是廠商一起討論出來的?你現在在外面市價多少嗎?廠商有沒有利潤?廠商出來結果你發現廠商到處給你們部分每個人都想要競標得到結果發現根本完全沒有利潤可言以至於你們看你們現在決標只有這樣子你們知道問題所在嗎?"},{"start":5958.84,"end":5964.164,"text":"在採購過程應該是量夠大,那…量覺得夠大嗎?其實沒有,你們的問題全部都完全出來了所以難怪從頭到尾每個委員都直擊我幫你做一個綜合整理嘛每個難道會質疑說你們是為了進口薄酒乳來做一個鋪路當初希望能夠來振興我們的酪農結果呢,你看,你光是14加2塊的運費16塊"},{"start":5982.398,"end":5986.56,"text":"你就沒有辦法不符成本糯農的品質很好它當然價錢比這個更高結果你看勉強的配合是得標沒有得標的小糯農完全被擠出市場造成盛難而且還要被下殺收購這對我們本土的糯農是一個非常大的傷害更不要說羊乳產業馬上就被斷頭目前羊乳有六成是血統結果呢教育部跟農業部告訴我們說每個都有鮮奶可以喝馬上大家要停定了就你看看"},{"start":6011.57,"end":6012.653,"text":"你要救農的產業,你反而先重創羊奶產業的生計,有沒有這個事實?"},{"start":6019.015,"end":6046.408,"text":"謝謝委員提醒喔兩件事情第一個是不管是我們當然是希望大家都可以喝到國產的鮮奶但現在的公共供應契約上不管是保酒奶或者是鮮奶都一定要是國產用國內生產的牛奶鮮奶去做這是第一點沒有我現在問說你羊奶的產業你知道會造成這樣的一個結果嗎羊奶的產業其實我們在上個月跟這星期其實都有要約來談這是一件事情是因為產業的大小規模不同"},{"start":6046.628,"end":6060.026,"text":"好,我只是要提醒,你這造成影響,等一下還有很多的問題,來,我們再往下看,然後呢,你看有3%點多的孩子失去乳糖不耐,然後呢,你需要有這個所謂的涵蓋的豆漿,請問為什麼現在尚未決標?為什麼現在還沒有決標?"},{"start":6064.049,"end":6088.49,"text":"因為它不是一般豆漿,它是涵蓋豆漿我們現在台灣有涵蓋豆漿嗎?有,有兩家有哪兩家?它的豆,它的豆是來自於國產的還是來自國外的?我其實幫你做市場區隔了有,其實它們是有涵蓋豆漿然後呢,但是它們都是來自於外國的豆,不是台灣本土的豆然後我再往下來看,所以你可能要搞清楚喔而且你看看喔,還要提醒,保守者採購契約"},{"start":6090.171,"end":6092.915,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":6106.703,"end":6121.331,"text":"這個部分因為驗收的時間一月一號以後才會是保久乳一月一號可是你現在七月並沒有改現在才十月你現在七月沒有改國產鮮乳的部分是一定要TAP那我下次說保久乳保久乳現在完全沒有CAS或TAP"},{"start":6122.438,"end":6151.172,"text":"然後你說明年1月1號你怎麼可以保證這些保久乳一定有CAS或TAP然後你現在還沒有改你就要現在10月的人怎麼驗收在現在的契約裡面就是它只要是國產生乳製造的保久乳喔 對不起喔你目前為止你還是根據你們的設計的方式喔來去做這樣的處理我只是告訴你說目前這都是學校單位所反映給我們的目前是有這樣子的一個問題所以這個你們一定要特別注意接下來我們再來看喔部長你看看"},{"start":6152.332,"end":6158.317,"text":"農業部說四年的供應政策不會被改變但是你看像牛奶的問題、配送的問題全部丟給廠商跟學校這個是大家已經收集所有的意見了當你這個政策要推出來之前你們這些單位到底有沒有好好的去做一些的溝通你看"},{"start":6168.784,"end":6193.553,"text":"這些都是學校老師所反映給我們倒是每個月配送幾次而且配送的路線當初廠商說好是由他們來決定可是目前為止學校不同的學校都不同的一個方法所以到底是如何怎麼樣的分裝喝完誰來清洗怎麼樣來整理垃圾部長這些零零總總你現在應該到任何地方去這個政策出來應該有接受到很多學校complain的意見嘛特別是第一線的老師應該有吧"},{"start":6196.378,"end":6222.116,"text":"確實這也是我們希望說透過這一個學期能夠更深入瞭解更地方部長你講更深入瞭解我同意的但是你五月就見報你七月就已經信誓旦旦說來現在已經十月了所以你不能跟我說你要慢慢來瞭解這就是我剛剛一開始說的政策美意是很好可是你們永遠政策先推出來口號先出來然後呢細節你就告訴我說我們再慢慢收集這不能這樣啦部長不能這樣啦"},{"start":6224.898,"end":6241.318,"text":"我跟委員報告確實我們也聽到第一線上的這些校長跟老師他們有一些因為這一個政策所面臨的一些挑戰我們也把他拉進來那你覺得四年的公益政策會不會縮水?農業部跟部長你們可以保證嗎?"},{"start":6242.711,"end":6255.297,"text":"你們現在目前可以站在這個地方告訴我嗎這是你們既定的政策為了孩子的健康為了弱農的發展弱農發展我已經幫你既定了沒有幫助到弱農反而讓我們的養奶的產業先斷裂然後呢你們可以保證這四年的供應政策不會縮水嗎會不會縮水"},{"start":6258.001,"end":6265.727,"text":"那我剛剛所講的這些問題你目前都沒有辦法解決啊你不能告訴我說目前每個人都是75%都是由學校來決定學校就是沒有冷鏈系統他被迫沒有選擇只能選擇保久乳那我再跟部長講你們也有很多人去觀察這個日本日本的營養午餐必付牛奶已經實行了十幾年了"},{"start":6279.238,"end":6289.36,"text":"日本人早就做到了那台灣為什麼到現在為止還哩哩啷啷部長你有去發現原因嗎利益良好為什麼日本做得到我們做不到你知道這中心的原因在哪裡嗎"},{"start":6290.745,"end":6292.066,"text":"中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":6310.459,"end":6319.807,"text":"現在學校老師已經被行政系統已經減量都減不了了你還要再增加他的負擔然後呢大家有幫你們想到一個方法有沒有機會去到超商來兌換還有我還是要強調對於乳糖不耐的孩子你這些豆漿到底是如何來訣標而且我要直指我問過廠商涵蓋的豆奶"},{"start":6331.937,"end":6347.165,"text":"目前為止那些涵蓋的豆奶那些豆子基本上不是國產是國外的這些都是有待釐清我還是要提醒我們從農委會提升到農業部已經給予到農業部的標準我覺得整個的品質還是要提升部長你現在解決這些怎麼解決"},{"start":6349.726,"end":6369.701,"text":"剛剛前面那幾個問題你看我更幫你弄出來了你看丁配送、瞬間鋁箔包、吸管、吸管套、塑膠、塑膠膜老師都幫你想好了沒有剪開要清血會發臭垃圾量驚人有些學員不愛喝偷偷倒掉造成浪費配送時間跟學校的作息完全沒有辦法配合沒有冰箱、沒有電腦寶珠都幫你全部整理完畢這只有條列7點我還可以告訴你17點這些東西"},{"start":6375.365,"end":6384.338,"text":"牛奶卷會不會是一個選擇的方法?如果沒有辦法解決這些問題,你今天告訴我你要撐四年,我覺得都是一些非常困難的事情。部長你怎麼說?就不要讓他改管?"},{"start":6388.305,"end":6404.575,"text":"我們會努力改善你要努力來改善我們就看看怎麼樣來改善這還是要提醒部長一個政策的提醒真的是配套沒有做好不要馬上拿出一個大內宣的口號那更不要說有鮮奶的部分我們剛剛說有一部分是要能夠提振我們酪農我要問一下杜次長酪農其實有大的改變"},{"start":6407.757,"end":6417.421,"text":"六月的時候食藥署已經離清了你們現在創造非常多鮮奶的標語延長保存期限的鮮乳長效的鮮乳ESL的鮮乳對我來說鮮乳保存就是兩個禮拜嘛我要是兩個禮拜沒有喝完我就覺得我很焦慮只管你們有效時間是90天你們還稱為鮮乳嗎這是讓很多弱農非常非常的"},{"start":6430.006,"end":6430.567,"text":"謝謝委員支持我們的立場跟酪農是一樣的"},{"start":6457.449,"end":6457.729,"text":"長校乳或ESL乳"},{"start":6469.831,"end":6497.326,"text":"都叫做鮮乳我們的立場其實跟落農是一樣的你們完全不一樣杜次長你是不一樣你應該多多聽落農先生這些全部是他們的反應給我們的90天不叫做鮮乳我覺得在這個定義上面你們或許還有非常大的一個空間總而言之好的政策希望部長希望次長能夠好好的對於配套的部分才去做否則你就會遭受從頭到尾其實大家的問題都一樣怎麼樣把它落實這還是提供兩位行政首長好好來做一些檢討謝謝"},{"start":6500.964,"end":6510.316,"text":"好 我們謝謝克珍委員部長常常請回下一位我們有請葉元智委員然後我們在范淵委員質詢結束之後我們休息五分鐘麻煩請鄭部長好 我們有請鄭部長"},{"start":6527.072,"end":6555.166,"text":"部長,那個班班有鮮奶這個政策當初是說9月就要開始嘛,讓班班都可以喝到鮮奶那這個政策是不是確定跳票?確定了嗎?跟委員報告,我不曉得這樣是不是叫做跳票,但是我們...班班的意思就是每一班都有的意思啦現在有沒有每一班都有?沒有嘛,這就跳票了嘛你知道我前幾天跟一個國小學生啊我問他說你們學校有班班喝鮮奶嗎?你知道他回我什麼嗎?他說班班是誰啊?"},{"start":6557.401,"end":6571.66,"text":"因為沒有人喝到這個鮮奶啊所以他不曉得啊他以為班班是一個人啊還問我班班是誰啊那班班喝鮮奶他兩個方向跳票第一個是有一些學校是連保酒乳都沒有啊連保酒乳都沒有送到"},{"start":6572.461,"end":6595.438,"text":"第二個是有的學校是喝薄酒乳那不無論是哪一種情況就是沒有喝到鮮奶嘛所以這個跳票的問題我覺得教育部今天來為什麼會排這個專案報告我想就是要請教育部來研商、討論怎麼解決這個問題應該是這樣吧那結果今天看到教育部的報告三張紙啦"},{"start":6597.81,"end":6618.21,"text":"比農業部還少這三張紙裡面對於班班喝鮮奶跳票的原因隻字未提啦沒有提到說現在每個學校遇到什麼困難所以沒有找到問題就沒有解決方案嘛所以我今天部長來感覺就是說對啊我就是做不到怎麼你拿我怎樣咬我嗎那種態度喔"},{"start":6619.033,"end":6637.24,"text":"所以我覺得這樣我們非常不能接受報告委員我們並不是這樣一個態度那我先把問題跟您講因為你的報告裡面都沒有這些問題啊都沒有提到啊我先告訴你第一個問題好不好第一個問題就是現在的光是農業部跟"},{"start":6638.5,"end":6659.759,"text":"廠商的契約所簽訂的量就不夠嘛我舉新北市為例啦新北市每個月鮮奶加薄酒乳要172萬瓶啊結果現在還相差到77.5萬瓶等於是說大概你現在就算完全公益顏值人公益大概四成左右欸大概六成左右大概有缺四成不想知道這個狀況嗎"},{"start":6666.169,"end":6687.901,"text":"你知道這個狀況嗎你知道我們新北市光是廠商的量就不足農業部跟廠商簽的約供應契約裡面的量就不足你知道這個狀況嗎跟委員報告確實新北市副局長有反映這樣的一個情況不是副局長反映啦我是問你說當初政策講得那麼好聽班班喝鮮奶"},{"start":6689.102,"end":6701.931,"text":"政策目標我就不去談了這麼好聽結果你的量根本就沒有簽到班班喝鮮奶的量那你當初在喊出這口號的時候是純心要欺騙大家怎麼會連簽的量都不夠咧我想農業部也一直在這方面做努力不是有沒有做努力啦你跟我們講班班喝鮮奶你照道理也講你每個月要供應給我們新北市172萬瓶啊"},{"start":6717.54,"end":6731.463,"text":"那為什麼還會差到77.5萬坪呢?光是這一件事情說很不合理啊我現在還沒有講到配送的問題喔我現在在講說你光是量就不夠怎麼會這樣部長農業部"},{"start":6742.349,"end":6760.942,"text":"謝謝委員關心我想這件事情是這樣因為其實我們知道酪農生產牛奶是每天生產它並不是生產完之後放了一年的量在那裡那所以其實在乳廠跟我們簽訂約的時候其實它也是足每天一直在生產所以這是第一點那第二點是"},{"start":6761.582,"end":6782.965,"text":"不是啦,你知不知道當初簽的量就不夠,知不知道?你知道嗎?副次長是不是?你知道嗎?對不起,你知不知道剛出簽就不夠,知道嗎?會再做第二次採購不是,你知不知道嗎?那這樣好不好,你改一個口號兩班喝鮮奶應該不是這樣子好不好,不要講班班喝鮮奶,或二分之一班喝鮮奶嘛"},{"start":6784.894,"end":6807.848,"text":"不好意思我們在質詢的時候那個平靜黨的委員不要在下面打擾好不好等一下你講話你質詢我也在下面聊天這個契約都是可以在我們現在在幫學校在監督然後你在那邊打擾我是謝謝委員關係那你不要喊班班喝鮮奶因為你喊了班班喝鮮奶人家會覺得奇怪為什麼我們班沒有嘛為什麼會沒有為什麼沒有"},{"start":6811.96,"end":6815.282,"text":"就沒有嘛,所以國小的學生才會講說班班是誰嘛是,所以我想就是說其實在公共供應企業上面有兩種一種是鮮乳,一種是保酒乳那依照需要都可以去採購不是,我剛剛已經把保酒乳的量算進去了嘛鮮奶加保酒乳就是要172萬瓶嘛你現在還差了77.5萬瓶,這第一個問題這什麼時候補足?"},{"start":6839.46,"end":6860.893,"text":"我們會再做第二次採購好,第二次採購那第二次採購那就跳票啦九月很多人就喝不到啊,對吧?好,第二個齁就是因為現在已經十月了嘛所以九月就很多人就沒喝到了嘛第二鮮奶為什麼大家沒有辦法喝是因為很多學校沒有這個條件剛剛很多委員都提到了那這個部分有要幫他們解決嗎?"},{"start":6863.355,"end":6885.469,"text":"這個部分其實在有很多委員也已經到現場執行聽到那我想所有的政策第一次吹動碰到這些問題都會有那有沒有要幫忙解決我們都會實際來面對那能夠希望把這些問題解決讓真的把國產鮮乳能夠推到學校做學童鮮奶現在沒有辦法送到偏鄉學校你知道嗎很多廠商不願意幫忙送鮮奶到偏鄉學校這個要幫忙解決嗎"},{"start":6886.505,"end":6911.779,"text":"所有的問題我們都會來幫忙解決怎麼解決啊因為其實配送不會是問題像在阿里山上確實也可以喝到鮮奶我現在就把問題告訴你嘛不要來這邊油槍滑掉好不好我現在就把問題告訴你你說會解決怎麼解決現在廠商就是不願意送所以現在廠商要求偏鄉學校改成保修路我們會再跟廠商來溝通這件事情那如果還有出現這個狀況呢我們盡量來溝通不是盡量嘛現在就是有這個狀況嘛要怎麼解決嘛"},{"start":6915.045,"end":6934.713,"text":"怎麼解決?你告訴我怎麼解決?那如果你要解決為什麼現在會有這個狀況?我覺得你們來答詢不要這種態度好不好?把問題反映給你就是我們要解決我們要解決那怎麼解決啊?下一次如果稍微拍一樣的題目過來你還是一樣我們會解決但是找不出解決方法啊怎麼解決嘛?"},{"start":6937.149,"end":6954.202,"text":"其實也有跟廠商提過但是我想學校這邊我們還是要尊重學校就是要喝鮮奶但是廠商不願意送所以要求學校改成薄酒乳這個問題要怎麼解決因為時間不夠第四個問題現在有送薄酒乳的學校的廠商"},{"start":6955.879,"end":6983.378,"text":"他一次要送一個月所以要堆積了幾千幾千瓶在學校裡面那學校有教育局有去協調說是不是可以請廠商分批送可以讓沒有喝到的學校也可以先喝到但是廠商不願意因為他們說跟農業部簽的合約裡面就是說一次送一個月因為對他們來說可以節省運送的成本但是因為這樣子就會讓很多學校喝不到他不願意做一個分配那請問農業部知道這個事嗎"},{"start":6984.95,"end":7006.598,"text":"我想謝謝委員提出來也提醒我們農業部知不知道這個事我們也正在協調也正在協調農業部你今天我今天告訴你那麼多的問題你都一副就是我本來就知道但是我就盡量協調但是我沒有要把它處理你給我態度就這樣啊請教一下我剛剛講的問題你什麼時候可以解決什麼時候可以解決"},{"start":7007.833,"end":7028.701,"text":"如果針對新北的部分,我們當然就是針對新北鮮奶術力,但是…量,第一個量的問題,第二個解決那個鮮奶的冷鏈、冷藏的問題,第三個是偏遠地區配送鮮奶的問題,第四個是保久乳要送,不要一次送一個月,讓它可以分散,讓大家都可以喝得到,農業部大概什麼時候可以提出解決方案?"},{"start":7029.451,"end":7031.834,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":7046.869,"end":7067.679,"text":"我請教一下那個校安的部分之前土城的國三生的戈井案的宣判出來了嘛總共判九年嘛那因為是少年犯所以只要三分之一假釋就可以出來關三年就出來了那我個人是覺得啦當然法律是這樣定但是這個對於學校的校園安全"},{"start":7068.912,"end":7095.192,"text":"我認為是沒有辦法達到什麼賀祖利啦十五歲殺一條人殺一條殺一個人然後一條人命進去之後三年就出來十八歲出來之後還大圍了啦出來還大圍部長你覺得這樣的法律有賀祖利嗎我想對青少年的許多的發展裡面他們怎麼樣給他們有一個更安全的一個校園學習的一個環境確實是我沒有努力部長"},{"start":7096.212,"end":7112.925,"text":"我之前一直跟你建議說把學務組、學務處至少生教組可以增設專職的校安人員這其實是很多學校給我的建議一個數據啦因為現在很多生教組長都是代理老師這你應該也知道吧是"},{"start":7113.605,"end":7139.628,"text":"那大家因為覺得生肖組長的工作太繁重他們平常還有教課所以實在是沒有願意做那現在產生一個叫行政大逃亡生肖組長根本沒有人要兼那我一直建議說可以找專職的校園人員來處理學生事務那上個會期您告訴我說會在開學前給一個報告結果你回給我的報告上面還是說要增設一個副組長的津貼就是讓老師來兼副組長"},{"start":7141.301,"end":7150.71,"text":"這完全是風馬流不相及現在連組長都找不到人要兼的你就開一個副組長那一樣是帶老師來兼啊這個跟我剛說跟你的訴求是完全不一樣"},{"start":7153.579,"end":7180.952,"text":"跟我們報告,確實我們現在也在在內部在整體的一個評估在整個……不是,叫部長上個會期你就跟我說在這個會期前會給個報告針對我們說偵測校安人員的部分嘛那你就沒有做到嘛那我不知道說因為這個新的會期又開始是不是可以真的認真的針對我們的問題來回答因為你回到千篇一律都不是針對我們的問題你增加一個副組長沒有解決我們講的問題嗎"},{"start":7183.587,"end":7208.684,"text":"是,這我們來檢討,我們來檢討那所以會,還,什麼時候會有答案?確實因為他整個人事上裡面所有的,我想會後我會跟,我們再來跟委員會後是不是?好,謝謝我們請部長會後再去葉委員辦公室報告好不好?好,謝謝好,我們謝謝葉委員這位委員那接下來有請范雲委員質詢"},{"start":7214.198,"end":7215.78,"text":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":7227.347,"end":7248.579,"text":"部長早安我想今天我們的召委安排的主題一個是老校舍一個就是鮮奶的相關的議題那針對老校舍的部分我有看到教育部的報告那看起來你們都有在爭取就是大家關切的預算然後我想校舍老不一定是問題最重要就是安全嘛"},{"start":7249.119,"end":7265.098,"text":"所以是不是可以針對這個安全防震的評估那給我辦公室一個報告就是你們新的做法補助的部分那另外還有鮮奶的部分我剛聽下來包含我自己都有感受到這個用意是好的"},{"start":7265.858,"end":7291.917,"text":"只是現在透過地方政府的不同的實行方式加上不管是鮮奶、薄酒乳本身都有一些它的食材的特質有些地方就是讓大家感覺到不到這個美意甚至造成負擔我想我比較關心的是基層的教師是不是因為這樣子增加了行政負擔在教育部滾動式檢討的過程中是不是也能夠在"},{"start":7292.877,"end":7295.419,"text":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":7320.421,"end":7324.426,"text":"二、教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":7340.145,"end":7368.545,"text":"不僅能送到某地還需要老師來發放的話那這個其實行政就會導致過勞那原本校園中就已經有剛剛講到不管行政大逃亡或是老師過勞之外的那這些都是原因但是我今天想針對的另外一個比較少人關注的校園職場霸凌那希望跟教育部做更仔細的討論那部長應該可以了解到校園中職場霸凌很難成案"},{"start":7369.325,"end":7385.902,"text":"有一個原因是說你一旦申訴了就會影響到自己在職場上的名聲教師不是一個容易轉職的行業因為跟中小企業不大一樣我辦公室整理了四件我們都有直接或間接的獲報的陳情案"},{"start":7387.944,"end":7403.709,"text":"那我認為這只是冰山的一角因為有更多敢怒不敢言的老師這四個案子我們可以看到有調查成立的還有學校有法源依據還有兩案是調查中那其中一個是師對師三案是校長對老師"},{"start":7405.489,"end":7430.612,"text":"以2021年有上新聞的代理教師輕生案加一是調查了可是調查結果是不成立被監察院糾正我想請問教育部你們之後被監察院糾正之後有認為有什麼事情是教育部可以事先做的讓被霸凌的個案不會再以這樣子的一個悲劇的結果作解嗎部長不知道這件事情有沒有檢視過"},{"start":7432.609,"end":7458.064,"text":"是的我想這個是屬於職場霸凌我想我們在有關這個涉及到校長對老師的一個霸凌裡面地方政府他就會直接成立這一個委員會裡面來做調查然後就教育部來講我們當然也會直接跟地方教育這個縣市教育局縣市政府來做一些合作我想老師如果被霸凌地方政府"},{"start":7460.926,"end":7483.485,"text":"對地方政府的處置是不滿意的我想他也可以直接跟上級機關直接跟教育部再來做這樣一個投訴、申訴等等所以部長非常清楚知道教育部就是地方政府的教育局的上級嗎?是那部長知道校園也要適用我們通過上一屆我有參與推動的職業安全衛生法這個部長知道吧?"},{"start":7484.775,"end":7512.188,"text":"知道校園職場也適用職業安全衛生法那跟部長講一下這個其實校園的職業安全衛生法這是第一條就有講就是其他機關也適用那第四條也有講到學校就是本法適用於各業所以沒有善盡保護勞工責任的雇主會被處以罰款那部長知道這件事情嗎?雇主如果沒有善盡責任會被處以罰款"},{"start":7515.715,"end":7519.637,"text":"請問部長到目前為止有哪個單位被罰了嗎?部長知不知道所有校園職場有沒有哪個僱主被罰了?"},{"start":7530.947,"end":7557.089,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前手上是沒有這一個更詳細的一些資料那應該是沒有啦如果你有查到有任何一個僱主被罰了那可以給本辦這個資料那我們了解並沒有那部長知不知道為什麼沒有一個僱主被罰我們剛講到好多成案了對不對還有被監察院糾正的為什麼沒有被罰您知道嗎沒有僱主被罰"},{"start":7563.838,"end":7580.832,"text":"部長應該不知道其實就是我們現在因為依照職安法精神壓力這些就是儲新台幣有3萬元到30萬元的不同的情形所以沒有人被罰的其實事實上沒有被開罰就是目前我們相關的辦法"},{"start":7583.134,"end":7607.256,"text":"其實都沒有寫得很清楚就是各機關並沒有妥善保障校園執場的申訴跟相關的仔細的規定那我們把所有的師對師校長對老師都拿出來檢視我們以各校這還是比較好的有些學校有訂出來我們剛剛看到那四個陳情案有些學校連訂都沒有訂網頁都找不到以這兩個有訂的"},{"start":7608.797,"end":7625.383,"text":"左邊是臺北市某國小申訴中的流程中沒有告知申訴處理的期限右邊是花蓮縣某國中甚至找不到校內有職場霸凌相關規定所以這個職安法在校園中目前"},{"start":7626.623,"end":7637.838,"text":"幾乎是很多地方是空白的那這個是學校這個部分那當然學校職場霸凌相關規定如果沒有連規定都沒有的話教育部應該監督吧"},{"start":7639.571,"end":7667.049,"text":"我想接委員提醒這確實會後我們會前面來檢視這只是其中的一層學校裡面有沒有相關的規定那我們看縣市立高中縣市立高中的話應該要向縣市政府教育局處申訴嘛那縣市也會出現行政不周就像我剛剛說的嘉義市被監察院調查的如果縣市出現行政不周教育部是不是有權接手調查請問部長邏輯上是不是這樣"},{"start":7670.34,"end":7673.282,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席"},{"start":7689.592,"end":7715.283,"text":"OK 邏輯上部長講得很清楚可是現實上你看這個南投縣政府的相關職場霸凌防制作業完全沒有處理沒有成立調查小組這件事情怎麼辦還有由誰啟動調查這部分也是地方的據說法規中就訂得很模糊了那新北市招局還沒有相關規定網頁只能夠看到勞動局的模板"},{"start":7716.063,"end":7739.124,"text":"所以他可見只有模板沒有針對這個校園的部分做處理這也是目前疏漏的部分那再跟部長講一下國教署應該要做得最好吧國立高中是不是直接就應該是國教署國立高中如果是校長對老師霸凌的話他的就直接應該到國教署部長同意吧"},{"start":7739.884,"end":7764.242,"text":"是的那你看看這裡面的相關的規定那如果國教署的調查中如果出現瑕疵現行法規中也沒有一條點出教育部可以如何處理那如果申訴不符國教署的調查決議完全沒有提供救濟管道究竟是要找行政法院呢還是教育部就直接就可以幫忙救濟了"},{"start":7764.602,"end":7780.407,"text":"如果連國教署對這件事情的處理方式都是不完全的那我想就是你會沒有出現任何的罰款就可以理解了那教育部自己的校園職場霸凌相關規定也沒有提及救濟跟怎麼懲處僱主的機制"},{"start":7783.128,"end":7806.243,"text":"所以部長你這樣聽起來這個校園職場安全似乎教育部好像沒有把它當成是一個重要的工作部長有沒有同意到目前為止職安法修過之後你們都沒有完整的檢視你們作為雇主之一你不是雇主唯一啊因為雇主還有學校、地方政府、國教署國教署也是教育部的一部分嘛"},{"start":7807.224,"end":7821.941,"text":"第一、目前各級機關沒有定定完善的校園職場霸凌處理流程第二、雇主失職的時候以嘉義市政府為例如果監察院沒有跳下來教育部好像不覺得這件事情跟自己相關"},{"start":7823.291,"end":7842.969,"text":"那這兩個是不是問題部長我想這個行政上的一些疏漏督導不足這我們會深切的來改善那另外我想包含老師的一個權益受損這一個我們也會在適當的這個透過行政管道讓老師知道能夠這個尋求這個勞動部一邊來取得這個權益的一個維護"},{"start":7847.093,"end":7865.023,"text":"那所以相關的申訴機制比如說以嘉義市為例嘉義市教育局去調查不周的時候就應該要有一個後續的一個救濟跟懲處機制所以呢我請部長謝謝您剛剛的承諾完善各層級校園職場霸凌處理流程二"},{"start":7865.623,"end":7893.274,"text":"制定各級職場霸凌行政流程處理疏失者的救責機制對我們的年輕世代來講如果沒有良好的職場環境他用腳走路選擇離開那這是我們整個教育界的損失好不好那我們要保障下一代的教育人才能夠安心在校園中把心力放在教育我們的下一代那請部長那個多久之內可以給我這樣一個報告呢這兩點"},{"start":7897.501,"end":7911.476,"text":"跟委員報告因為涉及到跨部會是不是可以容許我們有兩個月的時間?兩個月?好!兩個月齁!那你們不了解的部分就請勞動部協助好不好?好!那我就等你兩個月的報告了齁!好!那謝謝部長承諾!謝謝委員!謝謝!好!謝謝范芸昭委!那我們休息五分鐘!"},{"start":8221.786,"end":8244.449,"text":"好,接下來我們繼續開會。我們有請陳秀寶委員進行質詢。謝主席,請教育部政部長以及我們農業部的杜長四。好,有請政部長跟杜次長。"},{"start":8251.547,"end":8262.962,"text":"部長早安,針對今天的專報,班班有鮮奶及老舊校舍的整建首先我們先來看一下關於班班有鮮奶的需求數據依據全國的需求表來看"},{"start":8266.587,"end":8286.872,"text":"新來的登記的部分是20.76% 包酒乳是75.77 涵蓋豆漿是3.47那本席的選區 彰化縣是弱農大縣 但是竟然選擇鮮乳的比例也只有14%部長你覺得這是最主要原因是什麼 我想這個部分我們針對兩個部分來討論我先請教農業部"},{"start":8291.713,"end":8307.216,"text":"市長您覺得說我們的冷鏈系統是不是會跟不上就是我們這個現在要配送鮮乳的這個需求讓縣市政府、讓家長、讓學校會覺得說在鮮乳的保存上有食安的疑慮"},{"start":8308.777,"end":8329.627,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,因為其實在很多縣市有一些縣型就已經在做鮮乳配送,所以這個部分其實是需要有配套,您說的沒錯那第二點就是說,其實還是要在跟各縣市下訂的時候,我們有在說,但是我還會持續在說就是說,如果當場是沒有冷藏設備的話,其實廠商會提供保冷袋"},{"start":8330.467,"end":8331.988,"text":"市長,在針對能鏈系統的部分,其實我國在生鮮的農產品的配送以及生乳的運送這個技術應該是相當的成熟"},{"start":8350.203,"end":8357.573,"text":"如果確實說是在偏遠地區他有一些難以配送的困境才會選擇保久爐一般我們會這樣子想那農業部這邊你們覺得以你們比較專業的看法說是不是是因為冷鏈系統的關係所以選擇鮮爐的比例會比較低"},{"start":8366.063,"end":8384.4,"text":"我想在學校或縣市政府這邊應該是有他考量的問題那我想我們會再次再次跟縣市政府說對於沒有冷藏設施的部分我們是可以提供保冷袋讓他至少可以保冷至少兩個小時以上這樣子的時候其實對於"},{"start":8385.561,"end":8411.448,"text":"在學童要飲用的安全上面是有比較的保障是謝謝次長那我這邊請教教育部部長其實嘉義縣跟雲林縣在我們班班有鮮奶的政策之前都有配送學童鮮乳這個經驗甚至雲林縣的學童飲用鮮乳已經超過5年也沒有發生有食安的問題所以本席這邊要請教部長這個部分我們是不是可以請雲林縣來分享他們相關的經驗來提供給其他縣市來參考"},{"start":8413.541,"end":8424.345,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒確實在我們這個班班有鮮奶之前雲林、嘉義本來就已經都有在提供給縣市的學童核鮮奶"},{"start":8428.973,"end":8435.737,"text":"我想他們的經驗確實也是我們未來可以來所以這邊是不是請教育部裡面也可以積極了解之後來協助其他的地方縣市來提供給他們參考降低就是在鮮乳保存上這個食安的疑慮其實本席這邊要強調就是說班班有鮮乳是希望說我們要提供給孩童更全面的營養那有這樣的美意、政策的美意希望不要打折"},{"start":8453.166,"end":8457.009,"text":"由其在本期的選區,福興鄉是我國弱農重鎮,我們全國占牛乳的產量是全國第二,但是我們縣裡面這個登記的這個表格看起來對鮮乳的需求這麼低,而且選擇保酒乳的這個需求比較高,讓我也覺得十分的疑惑。"},{"start":8470.357,"end":8473.92,"text":"如果說我們彰化縣是沒有配送的經驗本身認為說也應該向其他縣市來學習所以希望說如果是因為有這個冷鏈系統及配送問題而沒有經驗其實不能就因為這樣不去嘗試我是希望從教育部跟農業部這邊應該也要善盡協助的責任"},{"start":8488.191,"end":8490.973,"text":"協助沒有經驗的縣市政府就向其他有相關經驗的縣市學習讓我們的孩童可以有更全面的營養是我們每一位大人的責任所以說如果我們的政策有不夠細緻的地方我們可以再加強我們可以再檢討然後再來改善"},{"start":8507.122,"end":8521.226,"text":"地方縣市政府沒有經驗我希望我們農業部跟教育部就來協助讓我們一起以孩子的健康為出發點一起努力喔好那這個部分農業部你們可以先請回我接下來要請教我們部長關於老舊校舍的問題"},{"start":8523.027,"end":8525.969,"text":"請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":8554.468,"end":8576.526,"text":"根文報告我們在這個明年裡邊大概有27億1月4年會有27億的這個對老舊教室上的一些整修這個改建大概我們事實上是有對各縣市的這些國中小有一些老舊的建築物但是部長您所謂的27億是針對所有的老舊校舍"},{"start":8580.416,"end":8581.817,"text":"是的,我目前"},{"start":8612.978,"end":8630.529,"text":"議員提到27頁是針對所有老舊校舍而不是針對這些老舊的活動中心委員所關心的我們一定會跟地方政府裡面共同合作然後也一定會有立即的一些要改善的我們在透過中央跟地方的合作裡面"},{"start":8631.63,"end":8634.332,"text":"請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":8661.51,"end":8661.63,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":8666.277,"end":8694.635,"text":"有一點細節給委員部長他也知道這個在八月份的時候開會大概有一件事是孩子們這些代表們自己要去選出他們的代表那主席也是他們選的那會後有這一些言論我們也去了解關切以及表達在正式的選擇的時候選舉的時候大家在互動的過程中要尊重大家彼此的意見大概都有在處理"},{"start":8694.935,"end":8714.64,"text":"四個都是就是我今天所要說的其實在教育部對於我們這些相關的會議我們應該要保障各年齡的發言權以及我們應該制定學生代表的會議職域在這個會議上有一些比較年長的學生代表不斷的質疑年紀比較小的這些代表來質疑他們是不是有具備參與會議的資格"},{"start":8716.28,"end":8740.757,"text":"甚至在會議上都會以小孩、小屁孩這樣的字樣來嘲諷年紀比較小的這些學生代表然後在投票的階段因為投票的結果沒有很滿意甚至還會叫囂、拍桌這樣子不斷的質疑年紀較小的這些學生代表而且會後還會有針對這些年紀比較小的學生進行騷擾跟拍照的動作讓他們這些年紀比較輕的學生心生恐懼"},{"start":8742.738,"end":8765.422,"text":"我相信我們後來還會有很多的會議相當多的會議是會有這樣子不同年齡層的這個學生代表來參與那這一次的會議上其實教育部的人員也都在旁邊協助那為什麼你們沒有在這個會議的裡面你們友善盡這樣子協助的責任你們在會議上扮演的角色或者說針對這些不當的舉動你們有沒有制止"},{"start":8767.357,"end":8792.974,"text":"在會議的過程中除了前排還有相關的顧問大概有三位到六位包含會議議程的顧問包含CRC的顧問大概都在附近那在零星的地方有特定的因為那個場域比較大是一個活動中心那特定的場域都已經有我們剛才講的顧問那零星的地方以及會後的在網路上的發言我們剛好有蒐集到"},{"start":8793.294,"end":8794.196,"text":"請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席"},{"start":8800.299,"end":8826.213,"text":"當然我們尊重多元啦尊重各位與會代表他們的發言權以及他們的權益以及他本身他們所代表的身份但是在會議裡面我們是不是也應該要說其實我們在會議裡面有這麼多不同的年紀的學生來參與就是希望說請聽學生的意見那尤其說這是攸關於課綱的這個制定那我剛剛提到就是說其實我們有很多會議是會有不同的年齡層來參與的"},{"start":8828.174,"end":8844.745,"text":"那希望說教育部是不是真的這個部分呢真的學生代表參加與會的這些相關的會議能夠制定相關的發言的規範我們來保障就是說各能凝成學生代表的權益這個部分教育部有沒有比較積極的做法謝謝委員提醒我想如果在這一個我們在透過這一個會議裡邊然後不同的委員有對其他委員的這些不當言論我想這都是"},{"start":8854.631,"end":8862.094,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":8895.013,"end":8902.576,"text":"好,謝主席,我們有請部長部長OK了嗎?好,謝謝,那我們有請鄭部長"},{"start":8905.182,"end":8927.974,"text":"好,部長好,本會期第一次見面,教育的議題,不論幼教、特教、國教、高教、成教等等,我們都有政策要很多的要來討論,任中道遠。部長,加油。謝謝。那我想上週我們這個三坨河颱風來襲,看到很多的一些狀況,不管是屋頂啊、路牌啊、亂飛啊,我們都非常感到憂心喔。"},{"start":8928.294,"end":8952.358,"text":"那教育部在10月3號初步估計有11所學校有受損那目前呢,過了一個禮拜了再加上基隆北海岸的一個地區上週五大豪雨教育部是否有詳細的受災或者是財損的一個狀況影響到受我們的孩子的受教權益有沒有更新?根委員報告,謝委員的這個關心這個災損我們確實現在有139的"},{"start":8958.547,"end":8968.715,"text":"五百二十六的一個學校裡邊那整個災損目前估計是大概三點六億好十月三號十一所現在五百多所"},{"start":8969.946,"end":8997.574,"text":"那82萬變成3點多億我想這個數字上有很大的一個差異還過了一週那我想爭取老舊校舍的改建特別編列預算我也有一個臨時動議待會會提出那我想國內超過50年的屋齡老舊校舍有2200餘棟超過30年的一個屋齡大概8300多棟針對老舊校舍的改建行政院一般性的補助只有37.5億"},{"start":8999.435,"end":9018.007,"text":"那我想針對這個部分行政院甚至是公然灌水說最近投入了千億元這千億元我想明明就是包括了班班有平板班班有冷氣班班有網路校園跑道整修以及廁所整修電力的一個改善整整"},{"start":9019.403,"end":9042.936,"text":"真正用在老舊校舍補助的部分是少之又少那我想9月30號的聯合報報導指出我想您也很清楚有縣市教育局的官員表示中央編列這樣子的一個金額太少單一縣市每年只改建3到4所的一個學校請問這樣子的預算編列針對老舊校舍我們要到什麼時候才能夠整體完成"},{"start":9044.156,"end":9073.836,"text":"根委員報告這一個可能要在這邊根委員再補充說明事實上這個從九二一大地震以後這個98年到1111年總共前後有14年事實上是這一個不管哪一個政黨這個執政事實上都是共同看到這一個校園這一個建築教學用的這些這一個教室怎麼樣去改善它的一個防震跟這個安全上的一些考量"},{"start":9074.797,"end":9078.8,"text":"總共投入了1315億,這是14年的累積,總共改善了包含補強及危險教室拆建有8788棟"},{"start":9094.733,"end":9119.107,"text":"那跟委員報告這個就是在921民國88年以前許多的防震系數教室老舊教室裡邊大概全面地毯式的搜索有一萬七千多筆裡邊做了初步的這14年的改善大概跟委員報告就是說特別要說的是在這個之前我們大概做了一個地毯式的一個"},{"start":9120.428,"end":9146.463,"text":"會有危險的必須要立即改善的跟拆除的大概這到11年是做了一個段落上的一個階段性的一個這個我就想問第二個問題現在的補助款有88%都是結構性的一個補強只有12%是拆除重建請問這是教育局做過專業的評估不需要重建就可以達到的安全標準還是單純為了省錢沒有跟委員報告這都是有專業的一個評估"},{"start":9148.362,"end":9174.446,"text":"做這樣的一個處理的好我想評估的科學標準是什麼家長都非常的憂心我們擔心這是治標不治本當然你們說這是有專業的科學依據我想今年4月花蓮大地震全台灣有1080所學校受損因為地震被震成圍樓的花蓮女中綜合大樓屋齡只有36年跟其他地區的老舊校舍比起來還算年輕可能"},{"start":9174.986,"end":9196.095,"text":"就會優先重建超過50年最危險的老舊校舍但是事實證明即使只有36年的花女綜合大樓遇到地震一樣會倒所以部長能不能承諾我們應該用最嚴格的標準以重建代替補強而不是用省錢的標準來看待老舊校舍的重建"},{"start":9197.473,"end":9216.648,"text":"跟委員報告,確實所有的這個校舍的一個改建,我們是以安全做唯一的一個規準。好,部長我想在我自己的這個選區啊,有老舊校舍不是只有老跟舊的一個問題,有的就沒有實照。那這個問題其實對我們都非常擔憂,那可以說這就是違建了嘛。"},{"start":9217.128,"end":9240.858,"text":"那所以部長面對全台灣有14萬學童在危險上課台灣地區屬於地震帶的部分雖然有地震相處已是日常但是我們不能掉以輕心啊老舊校舍的改建你只向行政院爭取了公立國民中小學老舊校舍拆除重建計畫114年到117年度350億350億不是會太少了嗎?你不覺得你太客氣了嗎?"},{"start":9243.115,"end":9255.434,"text":"跟委員報告,這個我想有一些我們內部的一些在老舊教室的一個這個補強跟這個圍樓的拆遷有一些新的一個數據我想是不是容我會後再補送給這個委員"},{"start":9258.499,"end":9270.624,"text":"相關的資料我們一起來了解但是我想過去8年為了國人的安全政府編列2370億海空戰力提升計畫採購特別預算2472億新式戰機採購特別預算也編了1000億特別預算役駐勞健寶以及台電公司編列前瞻預算特別預算8800億用於軌道建設、水資源環境、城鄉建設等等"},{"start":9285.29,"end":9298.19,"text":"我們都可以認同但是部長窮不能窮教育阿依此特別預算編列的脈絡背景我主張編列特別預算用於老舊校舍改建請問部長支持嗎"},{"start":9299.281,"end":9315.775,"text":"我想我們老舊校舍的一個改建其實也要跟委員報告有一些教授就是50年他還是我們經過專業評估是安全的對學校的歷史、文化、共同的校友的記憶他是有價值的"},{"start":9316.275,"end":9337.884,"text":"所以我們其實有時候我們反而看到、喜見到說當安全上沒有問題它事實上對學校它傳遞了另外一個情感的包括社區的情感上的一個連結當然這是特殊案例你用補強嘛這我們體諒嘛但是整體是說就是要要錢啊作為老舊校舍的補強跟改建你願意支持嗎?這個我們當然一定要來做"},{"start":9341.866,"end":9363.564,"text":"改善。我想部長你不敢要本席要幫你向行政院要錢那基本上這個部分我們希望編列特別預算就是保障我們的學童安全我們一起共同來為他們努力那我也希望你在要這樣子的相關預算的時候不要客氣我們會做你的後盾我們希望這個部分應該要去加強"},{"start":9364.545,"end":9377.077,"text":"老舊校舍真的是我們非常擔憂的一個部分確實行政院在這個部分也給教育部相當大的一些支持也謝謝委員的一個關心好那有請我們農業部督事長"},{"start":9381.561,"end":9405.86,"text":"我想我們也要爭取養奶也要納入班班有鮮奶的一個政策我想我有一些分享想要跟你來做一個探討班班有鮮奶的政策主要是針對紐西蘭進口的液態乳明年進口關稅將降至為零為了降低台灣農業的一個衝擊農業部與教育部所做的一個合作請問部長跟次長知不知道台灣有多少人有乳糖不耐症"},{"start":9408.95,"end":9417.195,"text":"市長您知道嗎?我們目前訂購涵蓋豆奶的比例大概3點多%"},{"start":9418.564,"end":9420.325,"text":"網路上有說台灣人有88%有乳糖不耐症"},{"start":9439.48,"end":9462.328,"text":"有說亞洲人有95%的人有乳糖不耐症最保守的也說有一半左右的人有乳糖不耐症我不知道哪個資訊是為真但是我想乳糖不耐症的人口應該是一個不少的人口所以值得我們去重視當然教育部是說開放豆漿作為替代品所以本來就不會有所有人都喝鮮乳甚至有超過一半的人口"},{"start":9462.588,"end":9467.713,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及執行長鄭英耀及執行長鄭英耀及執行長鄭英耀及執行長鄭英耀及執行長鄭英耀及執行長"},{"start":9486.371,"end":9503.786,"text":"章化縣府的一個調查有3%的選擇學校選擇豆漿83%的學生選擇了包酒乳真正選擇鮮奶的也是真正幫助到弱農業的部分僅有14%要讓所有人喝鮮奶來拯救弱農但是只有14%的學生真的有喝這"},{"start":9505.347,"end":9518.248,"text":"要讓是不是有像我們之前班班有時班一樣都是中央喊口號實際卻辦不到所以想詢問一下部長跟次長牛奶跟鮮奶這兩者的營養有什麼差別你們知道嗎"},{"start":9520.401,"end":9536.058,"text":"因為台灣自己的酪農產業非常好我們當然是希望提供最好的乳品特別是台灣鮮奶給我們的學童那目前訂購的狀況是大概鮮乳採購的比例大概三成多然後六成多都是薄酒乳這個是我們現在看到的狀況"},{"start":9537.453,"end":9562.947,"text":"我想說我剛剛問的是這個牛乳跟羊乳的差別我還是要講一下我想主要差異基本上兩者差異極低但是主要差異在於乳糖含量較低造成乳糖不耐症的一個風險也較低所以我想羊乳不管是本草綱目有記載我想以及包括我們研究指出它的一個弱蛋白跟牛乳的弱蛋白種類不一樣較不引起腹痛脹氣等問題"},{"start":9564.008,"end":9580.813,"text":"所以我想幫羊乳也說一個話讓大家有更多的選擇當然我們在整個今天的委員會也有在探討現在將這些牛乳或者是保酒乳不管怎麼樣廠商送到學校再經由老師送到學生這樣的過程當中冷鏈有沒有問題"},{"start":9581.753,"end":9609.925,"text":"這樣的過程當中行政會不會增加更多老師的負擔老師有教學的負擔有行政負擔現在還有所謂的班班有鮮乳要幫忙協助送達的一個負擔我們希望在這樣的一個配合過程當中應該要考量到學生的健康之外還要考量到教學的品質以及老師是否有過勞的一個狀況我想這個部分農業部應該要來極力的協助教育部這部分杜市長"},{"start":9610.345,"end":9637.668,"text":"會後有相關的檢討,是不是能夠給我一下?好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝羅廷維委員。部長請回後。那接下來我們有請鍾嘉斌委員,咨詢時間4分鐘。主席,在場的委員先進,列席的政府交通事務委員、官員會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生,有請鄭部長,還有我們的杜次長以及彭署長。"},{"start":9639.331,"end":9660.176,"text":"有請以上三位部長好、次長好、署長好部長聽說你昨天利用自己的休假,你住高雄嘛你前幾天有去你家看你那邊棟書磚、那體育的好長跟老師去看這麼好友,有嗎"},{"start":9661.631,"end":9670.666,"text":"是的所以也聽說在這些校友的敦促之下你去看了附近一些學校在這一次風災的受損情況有改驗中嗎?下一頁"},{"start":9673.264,"end":9694.891,"text":"我剛好這個就在附近裡邊那我也就順道這個去看了那發現這個離港國小確實超乎想像這一個我聽校長如是說因為校長後來聽說部長忽然跑到學校去然後就也趕從其他地方趕回來他確實連那個營養午餐等他們的廚房整個"},{"start":9699.813,"end":9702.435,"text":"市長不只部長去的那幾所學校,其他學校也有同樣的災損所以屏東近七成受損,需要的災損金額一直在成長,大概快8600萬"},{"start":9724.293,"end":9744.165,"text":"剛你說的3億6千萬,屏東就降了四分之一,是為權益來支持,好不好?要,是我們來努力。好,OK,那我現在今天正題啦,老梗啊,請問部長,哪一個是班班?是這一個嗎?還是這一個?還是這一個?那個笑容可絕的是威廉啦,不是班班啦。"},{"start":9745.217,"end":9763.153,"text":"那個卡通的是小鹿斑比那隻流浪狗要被總統收養了真的叫斑斑這是我們今天討論的斑斑嗎?應該不是我們看下一頁斑斑要喝鮮乳為什麼要斑斑喝鮮乳部長你過去當老師的時候國家老師的時候學生有喝鮮乳嗎?"},{"start":9765.205,"end":9783.825,"text":"有沒有鮮乳?那個年代啦那個年代確實是物資跟整個經濟狀況是相對但是我跟您分享一下我在當學生國小國中的時候家裡的經濟允許那時候呢學校是有供應鮮乳但是是自願的那時候也不是全面營養午餐像我就是自己帶便當但是學校有政策你要買的你來訂"},{"start":9785.367,"end":9811.892,"text":"所以我們那時候我還記得我一個老師啊國中老師叫曾卓光我還記得他的名字為什麼他是牛奶老師要訂鮮乳要找他你知道我們喝的鮮乳是冰的還是熱的嗎應該是熱的應該是熱沒有錯那時候訂的學生不多當天送來當天喝掉沒有問題因為人少所以現在我們為什麼會出現班班有鮮乳我們班班我們周周吃蔬果有每天吃嗎"},{"start":9814.144,"end":9822.005,"text":"其實呢,我們所謂的班班的意思,你可以量多一週次兩次,量少兩週次一次,這樣有沒有什麼班班?"},{"start":9823.424,"end":9847.239,"text":"有啦齁那次長我跟您請教一下當時我們為什麼要呼籲學生來喝鮮乳就是因為受到進口乳品的衝擊我們希望本土弱農我們盡量使用嘛對不對支持國產的鮮乳並不是說弱農要負責所有學校喝的鮮乳嘛就是學校如果要喝鮮乳的盡量跟我們弱農採購不要讓他滯銷是不是這樣意思"},{"start":9849.262,"end":9877.068,"text":"學童缺鈣要補對缺鈣的話對牛奶是好的牛奶是好的不要緊但是因為學校不見得有冷藏設備所以有的學校就知道採購了包酒乳對不對是部長是不是這樣是好來我們看一下那怎麼解決呢往下看其實呢除了班班喝鮮乳之外還有一個班班有冷氣下面有一句笑笑費發電部長你昨天去看了學校是不是你也提到說未來學校可以怎麼樣加強增進社區的防災能力"},{"start":9877.847,"end":9894.853,"text":"二、是的謝謝委員因為確實去看了以後發現說因為臺灣天災等於颱風跟地震是比較多的那以經濟部的一個供電系統有時候就很容易停電如果學校能夠有一些儲能的一些設"},{"start":9896.374,"end":9899.615,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":9923.204,"end":9945.411,"text":"農業部不是支持很多農產品要有冷鏈嗎?你們的冷鏈目前都在大型的輸儲中心嘛,對不對?其實要分散的,各農會。其實鄉下的學校呢,如果有儲能設施,可以農業跟它結合,也設冷鏈。這個冷鏈呢,農業部可以讓他們平常動一些蔬果,你補助電費,學校有儲能,可以用冷鏈。這樣是不是就可以喝到鮮乳了?"},{"start":9946.501,"end":9967.848,"text":"謝謝委員提醒加強全國的這個防疫的韌性那就是教育部放儲能你們幫助冷鏈學校呢有農業部補助冷鏈的電費我們學校要喝冷的冰的鮮乳學生就有口福了弱農也有保障了好不好兩位是不是共同承諾可以了齁好謝謝好謝謝宗嘉斌委員部長請回接下來我們有請林益勤委員質詢"},{"start":9980.078,"end":9981.079,"text":"鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":9992.515,"end":10012.001,"text":"首先本席想要來跟您關注是我們當今台灣教育遇到最大的困境也就是教師荒近年來在開學前我們總是看到許多學校在他的社群網站上來徵求要代理老師那也有許多在開學在即"},{"start":10013.882,"end":10026.573,"text":"此外,很多學校是代理老師沒有人報考的報導,所以除了代理老師的短缺,正式教師面臨人力荒的困境,我們必須正視。"},{"start":10029.255,"end":10055.2,"text":"有網友運用這個師資培育統計年表中的這個中等共同學校首登專長與任職的情況來計算每年新增的這個中等學校老師其中以國文科跟自然科學領域的科目來看每年新增的老師的數目越來越少我們觀看自然科來看如果各項的影響的條件不變從下降的趨勢來看"},{"start":10059.986,"end":10076.119,"text":"新寫的化學科老師在明年會歸零物理跟生物科也分別在2027跟2028年會歸零也就是說我們到時候的教育現場的人力開始吃老本"},{"start":10076.94,"end":10091.732,"text":"那當然我想我們不要把前景看成那麼悲觀可是我們總是要做最壞的來盤算那我想戲就為什麼這個新寫不願意投入教職的原因我想不外乎有幾個原因嘛第一個教職難考"},{"start":10093.593,"end":10097.918,"text":"二、年改造成退休年齡往後挪第三、學校開圈很少、行政業務很繁雜、薪資待遇不符合期待等"},{"start":10111.692,"end":10123.918,"text":"其中一個就是所謂的行政減量跟我們的導師費跟終點費有做一些調整可是這些好像看起來沒有明顯受到一些改善對於教師荒"},{"start":10125.399,"end":10135.885,"text":"所以我首先想要請教部長我們到底有沒有統計大約什麼時候會沒有新寫教師投入我們教學現場你有想過怎麼樣應付這樣的狀況嗎?謝謝委員關心台灣的教育因為老師是不是能夠投入教育職場我想關心到台灣的教育品質包括我們人才的培育"},{"start":10155.177,"end":10167.529,"text":"我事實上進來以後我也跟我們施培斯特別提醒因為從整個教育政策的一個介入在未來大概從120年、117年到120年到22年它可能還會有一個退休潮"},{"start":10173.174,"end":10196.557,"text":"所以我們整個師資的一個培育怎麼樣形成一個有一些政策包含我們教師法這個師培法裡邊30年裡邊它事實上就是一個世代我們怎麼樣去以時俱進我想確實現在的老師、地線上老師陳主委員剛才所提的他面臨的少子化家長包括許多的教育品質的一個"},{"start":10197.338,"end":10200.981,"text":"提升教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就 «中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向》進行專題"},{"start":10217.267,"end":10245.114,"text":"我們也常常在提醒說我們原來已經在減量但是地方政府有時候他總是也回應到地方家長跟各級的社會的一個期待也會加碼所以這裡邊我們一直在提醒中央怎麼跟地方去合作然後包含這個薪資的一個待遇怎麼樣給予一些適度的一些支持但是我想我們以目前來講整個這個施施的一些"},{"start":10246.394,"end":10272.327,"text":"他是一個儲備制我們的儲備還是有一定的一個量但是他確實因應因為這個產業結構上的一個改變以及教師的一個聲望我們一直也希望社會大眾能夠大家共同來支持我們的這些老師給他們一個更多的就是部長你要有方法看要怎麼樣做一些培訓心血的方法"},{"start":10273.347,"end":10296.017,"text":"還有你也要面對說到底有哪幾個科目它是會像說我剛剛說的嘛化學是明年就會歸零那你物理跟生物都分別在兩三年後就會歸零就如果沒有新血進來的話那所以我的意思說你一定要面臨到這個是最嚴重的危機跟委員報告包含譬如說偏鄉我們許多代理老師我們內部也我要內部去檢討"},{"start":10298.638,"end":10326.622,"text":"就說我們如果這些偏鄉老師一定要星期六日來補修教育學問那是不可行的你怎麼用實體跟線上我想這個部分能夠克服這個不能讓他每個禮拜從山上趕下來或者偏鄉趕下來就說這個部分我們已經在整體的檢討包含因應世代交替上的一個施施我們怎麼樣有一些培育的一個制度"},{"start":10327.082,"end":10340.942,"text":"有一些更全面的宣討我們大概也跟委員報告大概我們這一個禮拜整個施培師也會跟我提出一個完整的報告就是說你要有一些方法來吸引更多人來加入施培的行列"},{"start":10342.344,"end":10343.205,"text":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席"},{"start":10359.338,"end":10375.283,"text":"我想部長你有在想方設法不過這個就是要趕快想方法然後具體來實施那我想另外就是要跟您提到今天的主題就是班班有鮮奶我想剛剛很多的委員都有提及那這個都是好意"},{"start":10375.743,"end":10397.368,"text":"就讓每週讓孩子可以喝到兩次的免費的國產鮮奶那這個好事可是問題是操作上那我想為什麼說它是好事我們看鄰近的國家就好他們像日本他們有營養午餐就是有牛奶可以喝那你可以看一些資料就是說一些數據告訴我們"},{"start":10398.528,"end":10418.877,"text":"一九五零年到一九九四年來比,日本十七歲的青少年的平均身高,男生跟女生分別長了九公分跟五公分。所以這項政策看起來對於孩子的這個不管是長高、身體的狀況確實是非常有大大的加分。"},{"start":10420.438,"end":10420.738,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":10442.35,"end":10446.335,"text":"教育部的能力一定會漸漸上軌道可是我覺得我們看了農業部的報告就是說有乳糖不耐症有些原因不能喝牛奶那我們學童就是可以選擇所謂的國產涵蓋豆漿可是現在還沒有完全採購"},{"start":10461.251,"end":10474.953,"text":"請教是說那到底什麼時候還可以完成採購?有把握嗎?剛剛有回答說是10月底那有把握在10月底就能完成採購可以供應孩子喝這個涵蓋的這個豆漿"},{"start":10477.172,"end":10495.892,"text":"謝謝委員關心,確實這是我們一直也這個請地方政府要來加速採購那另外呢,委員也點出了許多的一些問題,我們也會悉心的快速的請這項本來這個政策還沒有執行的迎寧縣、嘉義等等的許多縣市他們實際"},{"start":10497.441,"end":10519.457,"text":"也一定會有冷鏈供應的這個保鮮的這些問題但是他們已經行事了有的已經有3、5年我相信他們的一個地方政府的一些經驗是值得我們政策上的參考我們也會快速請他們來做一些經驗的分享來作為政策調整那所以涵蓋的豆漿10月底之前可以供應給孩子嗎?"},{"start":10522.29,"end":10523.731,"text":"這項政策如果逐步上軌道之後有計劃要擴大供應給"},{"start":10542.984,"end":10544.825,"text":"中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":10574.076,"end":10590.278,"text":"我想當務之急我們先把目前所面臨的挑戰先把它解決那至於是要向上或者向下能夠有加惠更多的這我想我們也可以對就是供應鏈因為我們有提供給國小的附幼嘛"},{"start":10590.939,"end":10593.06,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就 «班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形»進行專題"},{"start":10613.305,"end":10614.966,"text":"教育部跟農業部是不是要來橫向溝通?"},{"start":10642.982,"end":10643.746,"text":"如果遇到這樣的狀況如何來確認有個那個完整的SOP?"},{"start":10648.138,"end":10675.84,"text":"是,謝謝委員提醒那在日本實施這個學童營養午餐這麼多年還會發生這種事情我想這是一個對我們來講一個很好的警訊那目前其實在不管是在配送、發送或在驗收上面其實都有一定的標準那也謝謝委員提醒如果將來有發生這個雖然當然不希望發生但如果有發生的話一定會依照這個相關的規定來做,謝謝好,好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,謝謝林應景委員"},{"start":10677.635,"end":10677.795,"text":"委員好"},{"start":10707.113,"end":10734.001,"text":"感謝昭偉今天特別安排這個班班有鮮奶不過今天的這個專題報告名稱真的是應該要改可能變成班班薄酒奶剛剛都提過了這個我特地還帶了這個薄酒奶過來只不過沒有帶那個班比小鹿斑斑我想這樣子的一種混淆真的讓大家有點失望那尤其重點是什麼我覺得我今天不只是委員我還是一個時空委員可以說是時空旅人"},{"start":10734.941,"end":10748.53,"text":"我7月11號的時候就已經提醒過了我可能是最早提醒這件事情的人教育部應該要針對鮮奶的保存設備、冷鏈運輸應該要進行盤點當時張廖次長信誓旦旦地回覆我說會在7月底以前將2600所學校來盤點一遍想請教一下部長"},{"start":10758.896,"end":10766.778,"text":"當時有說7月底要剋校盤點的結果應該要公開嘛那現在到底怎麼樣?盤點的結果如何?還是根本沒有做啊?好有沒有盤點?有還是沒有?現在已經delay了,要不要盤點?"},{"start":10782.612,"end":10804.657,"text":"各位委員報告整體學校在7月份提需求到後來進行盤點的這個事情都一直在跟農業部合作中所以您今天問我冷藏設備、冷鏈配送這些我們都在盤點但是中間因為買設備沒有那麼快所以剛才有提到用保冷袋所以7月底的盤點結果當時到底有沒有出來現在新的盤點結果什麼時候會出來"},{"start":10810.419,"end":10826.63,"text":"當委員所提到的7月盤點是需求,那需求...所以不是盤點冷鏈啦?不是,冷鏈的部分一直以來10個縣市它本來就在運作那如果有新需求的冷鏈,如果是尤其是偏鄉地區,原來我們預期它的狀況比較不良"},{"start":10829.232,"end":10840.018,"text":"那都會地區他不選擇的原因可能是行政的干擾那這個干擾怎麼來協助學校因為有10個縣市可採摘他的經驗所以現在的盤點是盤點冷戀沒錯啦不是在盤點需求啦確定嗎"},{"start":10846.08,"end":10867.298,"text":"剛剛在講的盤點是指需求的可能變化那這個變化因為要涉及到背後的配套不然冷鏈...所以會不會其實你們根本就不關心冷鏈啦因為調查回來大家都選擇75%都是薄酒乳啊到底教育部要如何推進這個計畫我們想要聽的是實話我們想要聽的是你們具體的做法"},{"start":10872.001,"end":10896.367,"text":"剛剛還有講到其實有幾個點我們之前都提過了冷戀能不能?價格到底夠不夠?這個我目前的這個價格可能也低於市價自主性到底有沒有?沒有辦法喝鮮奶的同學我們怎麼來處理?四年44億班班有鮮奶的政策相關的預算到底能不能順利的執行完畢?"},{"start":10897.762,"end":10923.851,"text":"明年的預算我們就要來把關希望教育部、農業部盡快就相關的政策施行來進行檢討跟改善千萬不要讓班班有鮮奶的政策變成政治口號家長、老師、學生千萬不能三書該踩煞車要修正可以提出來希望不要到時候我又變成時空旅人了馬上又來預言未來的發展"},{"start":10926.012,"end":10946.323,"text":"謝謝也謝謝市長請回農業部杜市長也請回接下來我想要跟教育部部長探討一個最巨大最重要的問題AI人才的問題行政院9月5號通過五大信賴產業的推動方案其中五分之一大就是要打造台灣成為全球AI影響力中心"},{"start":10947.003,"end":10968.553,"text":"具體目標包含4年內要培育20萬AI相關數位人才現在整個民間對這個數字非常多的疑問請問教育部的具體做法是什麼?分年的目標如何定定?每年培養多少?明年培養多少?這也跟你們的預算規劃有關嗎?可不可以稍微回應一下明年有多少人?明年培育多少人?"},{"start":10973.954,"end":10990.936,"text":"給我一個數字報告委員我們現在AI的有25校成立AI聯盟提供學程這個待會我會問對大概我們大概希望有每個學期大概有5000到未來逐步增加到10000除了這個以外呢這個待會我就會不小心戳破了"},{"start":10991.977,"end":10994.278,"text":"教育部常常我們高校跟國科會都有關啊,你們是不是有要跟國科會討論?是嗎?"},{"start":11014.224,"end":11032.691,"text":"人才培育人才培育的部分我們會跟國科會跟經濟部那國科會那一天又踢皮球踢到國發會阿有沒有要跟國發會討論報告委員這其實整體的人才培育的政策整體的就是一個皮球大隊希望不要這樣好不好待會我們就來提一下"},{"start":11033.711,"end":11054.085,"text":"剛剛您有提到的這個相關的計畫我們待會會提但是馬上就看到一個非常混淆的狀況我們明明一邊左手說要增加AI人才AI的人才、OpenAI、ChatGPT這些平台的研發就是需要資訊工程的人結果台大全台首學的資工"},{"start":11055.461,"end":11062.089,"text":"要招生的名額竟然還往下降這個部分怎麼會這樣本來去年174個結果今年變成145個怎麼回事啊"},{"start":11067.012,"end":11092.071,"text":"跟委員報告這是因為當時以教育部現有的一個系所言而的一個偵測他跟這個考慮到教育品質所以這個師生筆是一個其中一個指標所以你一邊說教育品質一邊說師生筆結果呢你一邊又說要培育20萬人才AI變得很重要那你教師要如何吸引呢臺大之公所去年報考人數超過1600人可謂臺大之最"},{"start":11095.453,"end":11119.89,"text":"你說師生筆的問題嘛那我們就要來攬財啊結果我們的玉山學者的計畫各校申請件數幾乎是逐年下降而且還不用講我們這些數據全部是省紀部提出來的而且他們還提出了很嚴正的一些指導跟建議其中有一半的玉山學者竟然還是短期交流那當然沒有辦法增加師生筆啊這個部分我們的攬財到底出了什麼樣的問題我先給您看一下我們的條件"},{"start":11125.294,"end":11145.371,"text":"這三點國際一流學術機構10年以上諾貝爾獎結果呢我們提出來的薪資一年最多500萬薪資加碼最多喔還都拿不足喔加起來年薪大概在650萬請教一下部長對於國際AI人才的薪資有沒有概念年薪大概多少我想這個1000萬以上一定要的"},{"start":11150.826,"end":11165.631,"text":"還好 有一點概念 那我們這樣有競爭力嗎?我們這樣的薪資有競爭力嗎?確實現在大學在這個相關科技上的一些人才的延攬他面臨到一定程度的挑戰謝謝部長 因為我是阿宅啦"},{"start":11165.891,"end":11180.63,"text":"所以我真的很希望我們教育部可以跟各個部會一起努力攬財攬財有了我們的學生名額才可以增加我們真正的AI人才才可以增加嘛2024年3月美國AI工程師Business Insider的報導"},{"start":11181.491,"end":11207.483,"text":"起薪已經超過30萬美金起薪超過30萬美金所以我們應該攬財要有競爭力請問部長相關的對策能不能立刻針對玉山學者計畫的攬財條件進行檢討跟調整並且對於尤其是大學AI資通訊相關的科系延攬優秀人才的問題進行盤點傾聽學校的意見明年非常的重要而且關鍵"},{"start":11208.243,"end":11214.059,"text":"所以我希望能夠在三個月內研議相關的結果書面提供的編輯我們也能夠相對的比照相關的總預算"},{"start":11218.015,"end":11243.37,"text":"可以嗎?好 謝謝喔最近還有一個新聞剛剛有提到就是這個台灣大專院校 校院人工智慧學成聯盟當時推出的時候我還發文轉貼我說這個計畫利益良善希望能夠成效良好結果我們看到根據了解113學年度第一學期25所加入結果勒"},{"start":11244.793,"end":11260.164,"text":"本來希望開放5300個名額,現在根據教育部提供的資料只有2500名。我們有聽到您的回應,說只有2400名,到底為什麼存在這麼大的落差?"},{"start":11261.349,"end":11283.669,"text":"跟委員報告我們確實當時的規劃第一學期因為基於這個產業包括整合台灣的高教資源能夠支持我們新世代年輕人有更多的學習的一個機會因為終究這一個AI不是每一個學校都有所以當時初步推出來是2400位那我們目前來講"},{"start":11284.87,"end":11303.986,"text":"我們在未來3年我們希望他能夠再能夠達到有1萬的這個顯課的這個學生人數其實我們有一個責任就是要來協作啦其實這個表格小小有一點微妙的細節齁其實呢你說2400名但是你看齁自然語言處理"},{"start":11304.807,"end":11323.858,"text":"有一個學校最多人機器學習有一個學校最多人這都是那所學校本來的修課人數其實扣除本來學校的學生外校選課的學生其實只有新增1500名喔所以要達到5000還非常遙遠喔跨校的效應其實不如預期喔"},{"start":11324.418,"end":11340.121,"text":"能不能針對這種現象能不能考慮一下調整跨校宣傳的策略或本校類似的課程會不會引起排擠的效應相關的這樣子的一個狀況的盤點是不是能夠請部長來規劃一下那下個學期到底是5000是預計人數還是2500還是我們扣掉本校生變1500啊你們要不要評估一下"},{"start":11350.343,"end":11372.379,"text":"跟委員報告確實我們下學期因為這一學期因為有一些學校已經開學他整個學問的一個採集跟選課所以我們這一學期剛推出來我想這一個委員會非常感謝所有的這一個聯盟裡邊為了提供給這一個各大學的選友選課的選AI的機會那下學期我們會努力我們目標確實是設定5000"},{"start":11374.46,"end":11375.221,"text":"接下來我們有請郭鈺晴委員"},{"start":11402.096,"end":11422.834,"text":"主席好辛苦了有請部長好我們有請鄭部長我再補充一下我們等一下一樣是第15個序位但是現在因為他們調換成紅色漢委員所以我們等紅色漢委員結束之後我們就來進行處理臨時提案委員好"},{"start":11424.502,"end":11438.393,"text":"部長好首先我先就這次的颱風的風災的部分然後再來就是受損的一些學校它目前這個災損的一個程度我們來請教一下因為這次呢其實兩次的颱風包含這個7月底的這個開密颱風那7月底的這個開密颱風"},{"start":11445.478,"end":11459.934,"text":"出估所有縣市學校受損的部分是7766萬但是這個金額目前應該看起來是不止那這次的三坨颱風目前出估的金額也有一點"},{"start":11460.475,"end":11461.516,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":11489.087,"end":11489.307,"text":"陳駿季委員"},{"start":11506.576,"end":11511.799,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及執行情形、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向。」進行專題"},{"start":11526.846,"end":11540.615,"text":"提報專案,像這一次的專案,截止日期是在11月7號,它會彙整區內所有的這個經費,包含像高雄,它就可能會彙整這一百多近兩百校,將近1.9億"},{"start":11542.256,"end":11569.048,"text":"目前是202校對全部的學校數的所有需求就會報送由各部門一起統整包含可能民政部門、公園部門它統整報出來其中教育部門部分是由教育部來審查教育部通常一接到大概3到5天內就會審查完一審查完但是審的過程中也通常都是照地方政府的需求除非他們撤走所以以上報告的是那種"},{"start":11570.228,"end":11572.511,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就"},{"start":11589.028,"end":11612.007,"text":"上個禮拜五在還沒有整個災情統計前部長就已經先給這兩個縣市協助了那至於現在慢慢的具體的災情出來之後那包含像行政院爭取的這個以及我們馬上幫他會刊這個都同步在協助將近有七個縣市那如果部分不足的部分是不是還會再編列其他年份的這個預算進來"},{"start":11613.188,"end":11636.461,"text":"像為了這幾天為了要復學有任何急救的需要部長都會馬上在額外再協助但那個協助的錢會比較是為了復學但是像一個建物有突然更需要例如重建的那個會跟行政院的開了這個專案我們一起會來協助他爭取因為我們最怕的就是我們應該要受教的學生他們的權益受到損失"},{"start":11637.862,"end":11664.469,"text":"好那進入到今天的這個主題我想很多人剛剛都有講到這個班班鮮奶的這個部分剛剛一連串這樣聽下來感覺這個薄酒乳有一點點被汙名化了其實我們的薄酒乳呢其實大家都知道它並不會因為它的殺菌的過程而減少它的鈣質跟它的營養成分這點部長對吧是"},{"start":11666.977,"end":11667.058,"text":"農業部部長鄭英耀"},{"start":11671.447,"end":11700.267,"text":"在這裡還是要肯定這個農業部在多年來其實都在幫我們的這個鹿農的產業來做一個轉型跟補助啦這已經是好多年了但是今年明年度最大的一個影響其實就是明年紐西蘭進口它是沒有限額的這個部分所以這是會對我們的本土的鹿農業有很大的一個衝擊那但是呢這個班班有鮮乳的這個政策呢我們必須說它是真的利益良善"},{"start":11700.947,"end":11701.043,"text":"本集完"},{"start":11701.314,"end":11728.632,"text":"我舉個例子來講我們每天都要吃三餐但在三餐之餘我可能會補充維他命C、維他命B我可能要補充一些營養成分的東西但是剛剛一連串聽下來感覺我們這一個禮拜的兩次的這個補充營養補充感覺被形容成是要吃的每天的三餐啊我覺得這個部分是不是部長剛剛這樣聽起來有一點挫折"},{"start":11734.135,"end":11751.142,"text":"謝謝委員關心,確實以日本為例它是內涵在這個營養午餐所以它在整個推動那我們這一次整個政策上它為了除了對我們這個糯農的一個照顧以外我們是用外加的,所以它確實"},{"start":11752.583,"end":11769.49,"text":"在政策的一個推動上裡邊就發現了一些更多的一些挑戰我想我們也會希望未來已經有台灣在這個政策推動之前已經有10個縣市已經有在這一個牛奶"},{"start":11769.99,"end":11785.023,"text":"這個我幫部長講一下就是任何政策的推動跟訂定或者是到了地方政府還有包含學校的前端或者是在校方甚至在家長跟學童其實我們都有好多不同的問題"},{"start":11785.623,"end":11785.643,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":11816.123,"end":11819.805,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就 «班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形»進行專題"},{"start":11833.61,"end":11834.311,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席"},{"start":11854.452,"end":11855.513,"text":"鄭英耀、邀請教育部部長"},{"start":11874.189,"end":11874.229,"text":"主席"},{"start":11892.254,"end":11910.199,"text":"確實是一個好的蓋園補充所以其實也是一個選項但是它確實是產量相對少所以怎麼讓它能夠在可以供應的範圍裡面我們也來做協助讓好的東西能夠回饋到我們的所有國人包括學童身上謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":11911.505,"end":11930.234,"text":"因為它的量不夠供應到這個大到全國都供應但它相對的來講其實就是跟所謂的涵蓋的豆漿其實是差不多的啊量是少的嘛但是是不排除是不是將來也可以把它納進來可以考慮這個作為一個選項但是它的供應量確實是比較有限"},{"start":11931.774,"end":11935.756,"text":"接下來我們來說一下我們的利益良善國人普遍缺鈣,不是只有小學生,從4歲到18歲都是普遍缺鈣的我剛有說到,保酒乳跟鮮奶的營養成分跟所含的蛋白質跟鈣質"},{"start":11953.704,"end":11981.883,"text":"其實是不分上下的所以其實大家也不要一直把這個薄酒乳汙名化了其實我剛剛聽了我也嚇了一跳因為其實我的孩子也喝薄酒乳他也喝鮮奶但有時候其實因為學校定有同儕之間的一些你知道那個同儕之間會影響在家裡叫他喝鮮奶他可能會覺得不想喝不想喝到了學校他就會乖乖喝為什麼因為同學喝了我也會跟著喝所以這個利益良善我們不希望說因為這個利益良善的政策"},{"start":11982.843,"end":12006.193,"text":"讓原本學校或者是家長他本來就已經有在訂鮮奶的一個習慣把它退掉不是我們多的這是一個禮拜當中的兩次這是我們的好意是為了要讓我們的孩童能夠有更多的這個補充鈣質跟蛋白質的一個機會所以這個是良善的這個我們必須要一直不斷的再次的強調然後再來我們看到就是"},{"start":12007.594,"end":12029.871,"text":"很多人也講到所謂的乳糖不耐症的部分那我想這個乳糖不耐症的部分呢這個部分我們是要怎麼樣來做一個調整現在目前有沒有一個初步的想法?針對這個部分這個部分其實是我們把所有可以供應的品項直接就放在公共供應契約上面那由需要的狀況去做採購跟調整"},{"start":12032.5,"end":12056.957,"text":"韓蓋豆漿的部分因為還沒有明天要審標審查廠商規格所以韓蓋豆漿的部分應該10月底是應該可以所以回到我剛剛的第一個問題我覺得羊奶其實也可以納進來因為其實它對於所謂的乳糖不耐症其實還是會有一些比較好的一些方向的影響雖然它的量不多但是我覺得可以跟韓蓋豆漿一起放進來謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":12060.599,"end":12078.363,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝部長、謝謝次長。好,謝謝郭玉琴委員,請回。那接下來我們有請張家俊委員,諮詢時間4分鐘。主席,謝謝。我想請部長還有農業部次長。好,有請部長次長。"},{"start":12082.335,"end":12101.812,"text":"那部長為了因應2025年的紐西蘭牛乳零關稅對本土落農產業的衝擊你們提出了班班有鮮奶、班班喝鮮奶那本席也多次召開協調會跟質詢最後決議就是除了進口的保酒乳不應該貼明鮮乳名稱之外農業部也"},{"start":12105.695,"end":12117.201,"text":"就是積極的介入也支持這樣子的一個提案喔但是這個政策實施之後好像引發了一些負面的效應請問部長跟次長你們知道嗎"},{"start":12120.644,"end":12134.594,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心,確實他也面臨到一些挑戰包括從保存,但是我想委員剛才所關心的,因為就是保久乳他一定是我們農業部當時規劃都是國產的一個鮮乳去"},{"start":12140.498,"end":12157.156,"text":"本席也提示您就是第一個問題產生就是價格目前中央開出的鮮乳採購價跟市場價有一個蠻大的落差不曉得部長有沒有在這個全聯或是7-11買過這個鮮乳一瓶多少錢你知道嗎?"},{"start":12162.795,"end":12188.014,"text":"我比較少,但是還是有買過大概一瓶平均大概都31塊、32塊但是我們中央現在發包採購的鮮乳每瓶只有16塊,飽酒乳是14塊以雲林縣政府為例,班班有鮮奶早在2015年起就開始自主實施雲林縣政府採購價是20塊一瓶"},{"start":12191.617,"end":12204.788,"text":"這代表著什麼你知道嗎這代表著我們這麼利益良善的一個政策其實是在壓低價格購買這一項政策本來是為了扶植本土的落農產業結果"},{"start":12207.403,"end":12234.968,"text":"目前的這樣子政策方向第一是單價太低業者可能入不敷出真正能夠去做的可能都是大型的產業大型的這個公司才有可能去承接那小型的落農他是沒有無力承接的因為他賠不起啊所以這一點請問一下部長跟次長可不可以來提高一下這個購買的價格以利保障本土的落農"},{"start":12237.549,"end":12260.877,"text":"謝謝委員提醒了其實雲林一直實施這個每週喝鮮乳這個其實也蠻久所以我們非常感謝雲林其實對於這個支持本土的酪農產業其實非常有經驗也確實已經在做那至於當初定下來那個價格其實也是找乳廠過來一起協商那考量到大概是兩點第一個是因為這次是由政府"},{"start":12261.557,"end":12283.348,"text":"希望每週學童能夠喝到兩次奶,那個量是大的,所以這個價格是由乳廠那邊提出來說但是乳廠都是大型的乳廠啊,你一般的小型弱農他完全賠不起啊,這小型的這個乳廠是不可能有這樣的財力的,所以這樣對產業而言到底是雪中送炭還是央苗助長?"},{"start":12284.761,"end":12306.553,"text":"所以這一點請部長跟次長要趕快考慮一下檢討一下是不是應該調整如果弱農真正沒有受到幫助的話那這個政策其實是在扼殺他們那第二個是政策不夠多元扼殺了這些養乳的業者這個政策提出之後有很多的養乳弱農"},{"start":12307.754,"end":12310.096,"text":"當初是仰賴學校訂購甚至很多人小時候都有喝過羊乳結果班班喝鮮乳的政策"},{"start":12316.409,"end":12341.284,"text":"記出之後從7月開始現在落農紛紛收到客戶的停止訂購停止訂購業績下滑了2至5成是不是可以把養乳鹽納入一個選項呢?好 謝謝委員提醒我想養乳鹽是可以作為非常好的乳鈣來源提供的選項之一我們來評估看怎麼把它納入即便它的量確實可以供應的量是比較少"},{"start":12341.784,"end":12358.253,"text":"本席也再次提醒說今天很多委員都講了冷戀這個部分一定要加強否則你是沒有辦法運送鮮乳也沒有辦法保障學童的安全所以冷戀物流的這個部分請部長還有次長一定要加強關心謝謝好謝謝張家俊委員部長請回喔那接下來我們請洪聖翰委員質詢時間4分鐘"},{"start":12381.195,"end":12386.956,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就"},{"start":12394.402,"end":12421.114,"text":"鄭部長跟杜市長那這段時間我們其實看到了很多在班班有鮮奶在執行上面的討論那其實關於這個血糖奶的政策其實大家都知道這裡面有幾個最重要的政策目標那第一個當然就是血糖的營養健康的問題那我們看到其實不管是衛福部或者是其他的在國際上面的建議"},{"start":12422.415,"end":12439.813,"text":"民眾每天應該要喝1.5到2杯的鮮奶那這裡面關乎到鈣的攝取那可是目前依據調查其實台灣有九成的民眾沒有達到這個營養標準所以這個是這個政策裡面其中一個重要的目標那另外一個目標當然大家剛剛都講到了"},{"start":12440.373,"end":12464.979,"text":"今年是我們弱農產業的升級準備年要因應這個紐西蘭鮮奶零關稅進口的這個問題所以農業部也提出了養牛產業全面升級的這個轉型計畫那針對第二個問題我想問就是現在如果我們從在第二個目標上面我們現在看到當然農業部有提出了一些供給端優化的做法"},{"start":12465.359,"end":12492.925,"text":"那可是現在確實也在拓展相關的需求端所以這個學童奶的政策其實也是在需求端的部分來尋求新的可能部長、次長我理解沒有錯嘛對不對好 次長那可是這一次現在在討論裡面呢這個之前你們陳部長來到我辦公室的時候有看我說他承諾說除了現有的鮮奶跟薄酒乳的差額補貼的政策也要來推動跟推廣這個小農鮮奶"},{"start":12495.465,"end":12510.462,"text":"來鼓勵跟推廣的機制進到我們這整體的制度裡面那大家為什麼這麼在意小農現在除了你對於品牌上面自己的喜好但這個喜好是主觀的喜好但一個很重要的點跟我們剛才講的第二個政策目標有關"},{"start":12511.792,"end":12538.2,"text":"今天如果我們在學童奶的政策都是由大的乳品牌來得標的話這些大的乳品牌也同時是相對有能力從國外進口包括紐西蘭或其他的國外進口乳的品牌大家會擔心這些乳品牌會不會把他手上的產能他灌到學童奶裡面他控下來的產能"},{"start":12539.83,"end":12562.919,"text":"就拉國外的貨來去填補來去替代那如果這個狀況發生的時候就會出現跟我們剛才講到第二個政策目標變成是衝突的破口這是大家擔心如果我所有的這個假設我學中乳的標案都由大乳品牌能夠拿去的話這會有這個擔心次長你覺得有沒有這個可能性"},{"start":12564.155,"end":12582.147,"text":"謝謝委員提醒其實在這個政策剛推動出來確實有很多可以再補強或是再強化的比方說剛剛提到的小農或甚至是羊奶業者像我剛才在強調的事情說這不是誰的品牌喜好的問題這個是我們要回應到我們政策目標的問題"},{"start":12584.173,"end":12610.709,"text":"現在大家會提出有這種可能性的意思就是有可能跟我們一開始政策目標出現衝突跟抵觸這是為什麼我們一直在強調我自己的辦公室也跟農業部談過好幾次必須要重視怎麼讓小農的鮮乳更有好的條件進到這整個機制裡面可是我自己坦白說在過去一段時間裡面我自己覺得農業部在這個上面的做法有一點拖延"},{"start":12612.366,"end":12615.45,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":12632.638,"end":12644.404,"text":"應該這樣說,其實在整個政策應該確實是該更細緻化,比方說,弱農卻是不可能直接把他所產的奶直接供應給消費者,中間還是必須經過乳廠,所以我們怎麼來協調乳廠在這個對於小農或是比較這個部分"},{"start":12649.927,"end":12665.98,"text":"這沒有問題但我的意思是說到底這個乳廠跟乳品牌他是一個就是只是專門就是做國內的這個乳品生產的生意還是他同樣就像過去現在有很多乳品牌跟通路商他們是結合的他有能力去國外拉貨"},{"start":12666.821,"end":12683.54,"text":"如果他拉貨進來去變成是對於國內的量的替代的話這就大家看不見就不希望的事情所以市長在這邊明確的承諾接下來會把小農鮮奶的推廣跟鼓勵明確的放到我們的採購機制裡面可以吧"},{"start":12683.78,"end":12712.442,"text":"我們來研究這一塊看怎麼把公平的能夠放進來有他的...市長我要提醒喔這其實是在落實你們部長跟我們的承諾喔這是之前他就有來說過而且我們也不斷追只是這段時間我們確實沒有看到農業部花很大的力道去落實這個部分所以市長我希望我們要把這做到重點是不要跟現有的政策目標產生漢格或衝突這是我們擔心的事情市長可以同意嗎是的應該要這樣做市長我們也可以一起來配合嘛對不對"},{"start":12713.423,"end":12735.215,"text":"這是一個大的政策目標當然希望大家一起共同來因應每個部會都應該有他的分工在這裡面去協助這件事也不是只是農業部的事情我一直在強調所以我們希望兩個部會都可以來配合包括來推動小農的鮮乳可以更大程度被來使用跟採購可以嗎好謝謝我們請部長次長會後再回好嗎謝謝謝謝洪聖翰委員"},{"start":12740.338,"end":12742.779,"text":"第一案有鑑於班班有鮮奶目前實際執行因能量會送進學校冷藏儲存問題"},{"start":12756.464,"end":12781.401,"text":"導致學生因食安疑慮選擇鮮奶依願低﹐原要求教育部及農業部共同研議於一個月內﹐比較弱勢學生餐券發放方式﹐與超商或賣場合作以發放鮮奶券方式﹐讓學生可以一週二次自行致超商賣場兌換﹐領取如憑﹐提案人萬美玲、洪孟凱、林倩琦、柯志恩第二案﹐有鑑於政府推動班班有鮮奶政策以便班班保九五﹐"},{"start":12782.021,"end":12797.282,"text":"長期來看,無法有效幫助本土落農農業,與政策原意不相悖。原要求農業部及教育部於一個月內檢討相關執行狀況、經濟如品提供方式,以兼顧政策原意確保學童已用到營養。"},{"start":12798.463,"end":12806.512,"text":"衛生安全的物品提案人萬美玲、黃孟凱、林倩琦、柯志恩有鑑於學校校舍,屋齡超過50年以上校舍高達2226棟,屋齡40至49年亦有6772棟"},{"start":12813.42,"end":12831.49,"text":"於要求教育部應於年底前重新研議提出針對50年以上老舊校舍拆除重建由中央專款負擔之專案計畫或提出老舊校舍拆遷重建特別條例以特別預算方式辦理,並於8年內完成"},{"start":12832.911,"end":12854.841,"text":"全國老舊校舍拆除重建工作以為施生安全提案人萬美玲、黃孟凱、林倩琦、柯之恩第四有建議教育部與農業部推動班班喝鮮奶政策倉促上路配套不足,原此為確保班班喝鮮奶政策能讓全台各縣市學童能如期如質飲用教育部與農業部必須確實調調查掌握"},{"start":12859.323,"end":12883.517,"text":"協調乳品量能或以推動鮮奶兌換券方式、學校附近超商等賣場通路合作讓政策更便民,以利政策順利推行提案人洪孟凱、萬美玲、林切琴、柯之恩第五案有建議教育部爭取行政院老舊校舍整建350億元進行114年先行辦理前期作業規劃,仍然治標不治本。原此建請教育部規劃長期專案計畫"},{"start":12885.798,"end":12906.134,"text":"補助各地方政府逐年整建校舍．並持續針對各校所提需求補助校園修繕．以改善及維護全台校園環境．優化學習場域．保障師生安全．提案人洪峰凱、萬美玲玲竊其科之恩。第六案．針對我國現有的老舊校舍．屋齡超過50年即有2200餘棟．屋齡超過30年以上則有8300餘棟．"},{"start":12911.458,"end":12930.316,"text":"窮不能窮教育,列冊有案之老舊校舍已破萬棟,原件請教育部應先統計所需拆除重建經費,並編列特別預算方式於8年內完成之。提案人羅廷瑋、柯智恩、萬美玲、連署人洪夢、凱琳、倩琪、黃建豪、廖偉祥宣讀完畢。"},{"start":12935.913,"end":12959.458,"text":"好 以上六案我想主席這邊宣告這樣處理我們今天有六案但是第一案、第二案跟第四案是跟班班鮮奶有關係的那等一下三案、五案跟六案是屬於老舊校舍的臨時提案那我先來處理班班有鮮奶的部分一案、二案跟四案那我們就這三案提案委員跟各位委員有沒有意見好 那先陳培芸委員"},{"start":12970.59,"end":12988.961,"text":"我對於那個發放鮮乳券啦,就是算是個演繹,但是我有個想要提醒的地方啦,就是因為我自己過去在食品產業待了非常久的時間,那我知道在超商的上架費是要到35到40%的利潤,這對於小農要上架來說是非常困難的,因為他絕對不可能有這麼高的利潤。"},{"start":12990.061,"end":13007.356,"text":"所以就變成說如果我們是發放先入卷那最後就很有可能實際受惠的還會是大廠那我們回到我們原本的本意希望可以扶植小農這件事情可能就會沒有辦法執行所以還是希望提供個這個意見來供大家作為參考 謝謝"},{"start":13009.175,"end":13010.016,"text":"補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規定"},{"start":13030.296,"end":13059.626,"text":"薄酒乳跟鮮乳在現場的發放跟孩子們的使用還有就是廠商他們現在面臨的問題我覺得這應該才是這整個問題要去面對的困境而不是用一個券的方法就想要取代那券的部分除了有上架費之外我想要提醒寫這個臨時天的委員我想要分享一個困境就是目前我們學校這一次班班喝鮮乳的採購的比例是那個mol數是195mol它其實也不是我們市面上看得到的"},{"start":13060.026,"end":13060.406,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":13089.901,"end":13102.876,"text":"關於這個卷的使用我覺得有沒有可能最後其實這個卷不會是加惠到學生本人而是這個卷會流到其他的家長那這個家長要怎麼樣去"},{"start":13104.077,"end":13128.172,"text":"證明說我拿這個卷就是因為我的孩子難道是要帶戶口名簿還是說學生要去換的時候他要帶身分證或者是他沒有身分證他要帶學生證去兌換有沒有可能最後這個美意也因為這個卷所引發的其他一些問題那之前其實包含那個所謂的這個餐卷也是有類似的這樣子的一個狀況所以可能要特別謹慎小心"},{"start":13130.374,"end":13130.394,"text":"紅線漢委員"},{"start":13148.86,"end":13165.535,"text":"就說這大家都心裡知道所以當大的乳廠跟通路結合的時候它一方面它會有旗下的本土酪農但另外一手它其實也是一個國外鮮乳的進口者這是我要一直要提醒的事情是說"},{"start":13166.616,"end":13195.966,"text":"如果接下來我們全部都用鮮乳券的話那很可能變成只有大的乳廠、乳品牌跟通路才能夠獨佔這個學童乳的這個訂單那這個狀況它很有可能把它旗下的本土的酪農的產能就算我把它轉移到學童乳上面可是我控下來的它原本要賣給業務通路的它原本要做業務用奶的部分它控下來的產能它就跑去進口了"},{"start":13197.3,"end":13221.342,"text":"這就是跟我們剛剛在講到的政策目標會漢格的地方所以看起來鮮乳卷的做法雖然在操作面上面看起來行政部門的行政成本是最低的可是可能會造成跟我們的政策目標衝突的問題所以對於鮮乳卷的做法我覺得一定要非常非常的小心甚至我覺得要避免剛剛在講的這個狀況發生這部分"},{"start":13223.484,"end":13238.16,"text":"我也許農業部了解但我覺得教育部要讓教育部也理解一下說這個做法也許對教育部來說是最輕鬆的可是這個做法做下去會影響整體的政策目標這是在幾個提案裡面看到先無盡我們會比較擔心的還是必須提出來 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13242.526,"end":13269.387,"text":"我們再請陳秀寶委員謝謝主席其實對這個鮮乳卷的發放當然對行政一些人力會覺得說比較精神但是我比較疑慮就是說我們在學校喝鮮奶我們發給孩子們老師可以督促他們在這個生鮮的這個期間裡面把它喝掉看得到他喝但是如果是發放鮮乳卷讓他去領的話是不是真的是學童喝了會不會他"},{"start":13270.288,"end":13270.568,"text":"還有沒有哪位委員?"},{"start":13290.285,"end":13310.191,"text":"提案委員我想我這邊講一下因為我也是提案委員謝謝大家我們一起來提醒教育部怎麼樣讓教育部在實施農業部的政策上面可以做到更盡善盡美所以我想在我的提案跟"},{"start":13310.771,"end":13333.822,"text":"我自己有兩個提案然後等一下孟凱有一個提案看我想我們都是請教育部大家可以看一下那個提案就希望他能夠研議是不是可以多這個選擇用卷的方式來發放那剛剛提到小農我覺得小農通貨這個部分當然我個人覺得很重要但是呢我們在這個政策上的主體應該是我們的學生如果能夠先讓學生都能夠很便利的可以喝到"},{"start":13334.743,"end":13351.716,"text":"每一個學生都可以喝到班班有鮮乳政策的相關乳製品但是又不要讓第一線的老師去造成非常大壓力跟困擾這個也是我們必須要考慮到的因為農業部的這個政策出來因為太常俗上路了所以教育部實行起來事實上有很大的壓力在"},{"start":13352.116,"end":13373.801,"text":"所以我想我們這個提案也是希望能夠解決這個行政人員跟教室的一些壓力那所以過去我們在營養午餐我想各位委員在選區內一定知道我們在弱勢學童的營養午餐的發放上面在寒暑假的時候用的就是券那你說會不會有一些弊端或一些瑕疵在當然是會有的以前也曾經有這個營養午餐券可能"},{"start":13374.201,"end":13377.002,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就"},{"start":13392.628,"end":13392.948,"text":"請教育部說明"},{"start":13417.376,"end":13433.637,"text":"謝謝主席以及所有的委員關心這個學童這個補充這一個鈣質跟蛋白質的這一個鮮奶的一個那我想確實在這個部分我們這一個學生的一個參見的一個"},{"start":13434.838,"end":13456.795,"text":"就用卷的一個發放陳儒我剛才也跟主席報告過因為我們也擔心學生是不是能夠確實落實到每一個人都能夠營用然後剛才也衍生的這些小農的一個照顧以及他的一個規格上我想這一個部分我們同意來做更這一個"},{"start":13457.675,"end":13457.775,"text":"主席"},{"start":13481.057,"end":13481.698,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":13508.334,"end":13520.099,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英�"},{"start":13536.959,"end":13537.099,"text":"紅色漢委員"},{"start":13549.369,"end":13569.285,"text":"我自己是覺得說勸的方式就是去研議一下它的優缺點我覺得這沒什麼這OK這樣子但我只是覺得說不要綁死只有在勸的方式啦就很多不同執行的方式去評估它的優缺點這是第一個所以剛剛在第一案的部分裡面因為當然"},{"start":13570.806,"end":13588.636,"text":"有寫到說比照若是學生餐券發放方式就有沒有可能這個演繹裡面也不只是券的發放方式包括其他的可能性也包括在這裡面去做精進我覺得就是第一個是這件事情那第二個是剛才大家其實我必須說"},{"start":13590.441,"end":13607.854,"text":"我覺得大家在談到這個班班有鮮乳的時候一直會有點現在都被講成是說教育部幫農業部執行政策坦白說我覺得這個其實這也不是很精準因為當時2013在簽的時候農業部可能也沒有很想去簽台紐的貿易協議這是為了整體的經貿環境去簽這個東西所以如果當時是為了一個整體的經貿環境其實每個部會"},{"start":13613.678,"end":13629.915,"text":"就必須要一起來去面對這件事情的因應我覺得這比較有道理啦反正我大概做一個這個補充但是就是執行方式上面怎麼樣不要只是聚焦在卷的演繹而是其他方式納入有沒有可能放到這個文字裡面一起大家做一點修訂但是這樣 謝謝"},{"start":13631.036,"end":13657.575,"text":"好 謝謝我想我們的發言我們針對那個該臨時提案所以這個臨時提案現在我們還是希望說因為這個政策太倉促上路所以有很多的配套不足產生現在這個政策幾乎是形同跳票今天應該是在我們委員會不論藍綠的委員都有這樣的一個共識那我們當然希望這個政策可以趕快落實所以大家才去想方設法所以我想"},{"start":13658.355,"end":13681.386,"text":"如果說發券這件事情是完全不可行的話我們對於弱勢的孩童在寒假暑假的時候用券的方式發那為什麼呢?就可以喔所以我想在這件事情上面我認為發這個鮮奶券其實它是一個選項所以我們希望說是不是能夠還是請教育部按照券的發放的方式這個選項能夠進行研議"},{"start":13683.607,"end":13700.229,"text":"如果教育部沒有辦法提出來說完全是自愛難行那我們應該就要用這個方式來試試看好不好那其他委員有沒有其他的想法因為我想這個是我們請他研議這個方式嘛"},{"start":13704.195,"end":13712.562,"text":"那我們就依據教育部一個月我們改成兩個月給教育部更多的時間去做研議那這一案我們就照樣通過"},{"start":13713.988,"end":13716.609,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":13737.501,"end":13738.422,"text":"請教育部檢討執行狀況"},{"start":13755.489,"end":13773.699,"text":"我們先請張雅琳委員我想提醒一下因為這一點就是說因為我們還是會回到本土陸農業那其實跟第一個提案如果都只有用卷的方式來舉行的話就很有可能沒有辦法解決第二個提案的問題所以是不是可以開放只有不要只限於卷這個方式去思考而是兩個提案一起合併來思考這樣"},{"start":13775.32,"end":13799.121,"text":"請教育部這邊我不太理解你的意思,可不可以再說明一些?好,就是說因為我們的第二個提案裡面是有說我們還是要幫助本土落農業嘛,對不對?可是如果我們現在只有圍盪,因為剛剛大家都有提醒到說如果用圈的時候,它可能會造成一些問題,可能無法就例如上架費很高,例如說剛剛講的就是那個剛剛申漢提的那些問題,它就會造成最後只有大廠才可以進去"},{"start":13800.422,"end":13821.374,"text":"進去這些便利商店或是超商賣場等等的所以我在想說我們是不是可以在教育部在思考的時候是一定要去解決本土弱農業的問題而不是只有限於厭倦這個方式你針對第二案你的具體要怎麼改聽我說他是跟第一案一起來思考因為第一案我們已經照剛剛修正通過所以第二案您想要怎麼改"},{"start":13822.458,"end":13851.533,"text":"好那我基本上就是希望說我們在考在思考這件事情的時候可能在思考第一案的時候可以有其他的選項啦對好謝謝那就是雅琳的意思可能就是提供給教育部說在思考這件事情要更周全更廣泛一些啦是這個意思嗎?基本上就是多方思考這樣好就是要思考更周全一點這是那個雅琳議員的委員的意思那還有沒有哪一位委員?培育委員"},{"start":13853.38,"end":13872.029,"text":"我想要針對這個提案請教教育部就是因為他這邊寫的是請你們去精進乳品提供的方法做出檢討還要兼顧政策的原意可是就像我今天在質詢說的如果我們的政策原意是有兩個一個是營養教育、刮鬍石農教育或者是支持國產鮮乳"},{"start":13873.129,"end":13889.559,"text":"那用這兩個方法來看所謂精進如品提供方法應該面對的困境是老師們在現場的困境還有弱農想要達到的目標還有農業部跟教育部你們各自想要達到的目標所以這邊的寫法我也想要建議朝委就是因為這邊您也有提案嘛吼"},{"start":13890.679,"end":13916.032,"text":"你這邊的寫法要不要更精確讓教育部或者是農業部知道他們在乳品提供方法你希望他們兩個跨部會怎麼樣的合作因為這個絕對不會只有教育部的議題因為在跟限乳廠商簽約或者是執行配送的方法如同今天很多委員提到他有農業部很重的角色在裡頭所以這個工作是不是可以不要只有壓在教育部身上所以我們在教育化委員會"},{"start":13917.092,"end":13943.297,"text":"謝謝朋友委員我想你可以看一下在仔細填一下我的提案是要求農業部跟教育部當然我們沒有辦法要求這個具體要求農業部但是就是請這個政策教育部其實在檢討的過程當中你當然要橫向跟農業部那做開會嘛那去做研議所以這個案子其實也很單純其實比較像剛剛雅琳委員提的就是我們要更廣泛、更周全那在一個月之內把這個相關檢討的執行狀況把它提出來"},{"start":13946.218,"end":13959.954,"text":"那我想你提出來之後就可以作為我們這次整個在質詢過後我們的問題點有沒有得到一個解答那你們做起來在第一線的時候能不能更順手所以其實是比較廣泛的希望教育部更周全地做一個檢討"},{"start":13961.015,"end":13989.393,"text":"那還有另外一個問題我也想要提出來跟部會還有召委討論就是你這邊寫法是說因為大家擔心食安問題退而選擇保酒乳可是站在營養學家的觀點或是站在一個我自己是一個母親在協助我的小孩喝鮮乳或是保酒乳的選擇對我們來說都不是退而其次的事情那我覺得這個也汙名化了台灣自己的國產鮮乳做成保酒乳的廠商我覺得這有汙名化的嫌疑所以在相關的致詞討論上或是教育部"},{"start":13989.973,"end":13990.474,"text":"《中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向》進行專題"},{"start":14004.944,"end":14020.272,"text":"所以如果大家要用歧視的眼光來看薄酒爐然後甚至讓教育部跟農業部作為這個跟地方教育局處或者是相關單位的論述那我覺得會讓薄酒爐的廠商或者是選擇喝薄酒爐的家庭會覺得自己背負著一個很奇怪的罵名這樣謝謝"},{"start":14021.613,"end":14039.371,"text":"好 謝謝裴育委員這裡我講一下我覺得這個農業部你要好好的去聽一下剛剛我們裴育委員講的我想說污名化太沉重沒有人要污名化保久乳但農業部你們提出來班班有鮮乳這個是你們所提出來的嘛所以"},{"start":14039.751,"end":14068.971,"text":"至於班班有鮮奶這件事情如果是你們優先提出來的政策也是要給家長當時的一個選擇甚至於可以說那個時候不是選擇而是給予那現在有了第二選擇所以我們認為是第二選擇那如果認為退而選擇保酒乳覺得有點看了不太能接受那我們就把它改成進而選擇保酒乳、次而選擇保酒乳都可以看大家希望改哪一個字但是這個農業部可能要稍微注意一下"},{"start":14070.672,"end":14071.753,"text":"退而求其次才去選擇"},{"start":14086.483,"end":14115.139,"text":"那其實飽酒乳它的鈣質或者是它的蛋白質的營養成分其實很多的營養專家都講其實不會因為殺菌的過程而會減少其實它的同樣的來源都是來自於我們的生乳就是跟鮮乳一樣但鮮乳可能還會冒著所謂的這個在冷面運送的過程或者是時間放久的過程它可能還會有一些食安的這個狀況那飽酒乳就像我們家小孩其實他飽酒乳也喝他鮮奶也喝他也不會因為喝了飽酒乳他就不會"},{"start":14115.859,"end":14137.96,"text":"就不回去喝鮮奶也不會有這種狀況所以我在想說這個班班有鮮奶我們把它改成班班有牛奶會不會好一點或者是班班有鈣質或者是怎麼樣都可以因為我們還有豆漿嘛 對不對所以這個可能班班有鮮奶這個部分我們稍微可能修改一下我覺得可能也可以做個參考啦"},{"start":14138.5,"end":14160.114,"text":"好,謝謝各位群委員那我想這樣子啦這個主席也接受大家的建議啦我把這個文字改成因為這個政策其實是倉促上路嘛我們從無法完備開始看起無法完備使學生及家長擔憂食安問題而選擇飽酒辱我把那個退字拿掉好不好"},{"start":14160.934,"end":14188.808,"text":"我希望在這個檢討的時候呢教育部跟農業部也可以好好參酌剛剛郭育群委員的建議那如果你沒有辦法做到班班有鮮乳那你要怎麼改那怎麼告訴大家你的班班有鮮乳要改變那我覺得我們都可以接受一併在一個月的內的檢討裡頭你可以把它提出來這樣好不好那教育部這樣子有沒有其他的問題有沒有其他意見部長"},{"start":14191.404,"end":14218.092,"text":"這個一個月內把它提出來可以嗎?而且可能必須一個月喔?要,我們來配合檢討對,跟農業部多討論一下那這樣子,各位委員、其他委員,我就把這個退大家不喜歡嘛,我們就把它拿掉這樣好不好?那還沒有什麼意見,主席都會好好參考一下好,謝謝那第二案我們就照修正通過那第三案"},{"start":14219.56,"end":14238.414,"text":"第四案應該就跟剛剛一樣嘛所以在文字上有沒有需要做調整因為黃某凱委員提案他也沒有押時間所以就是不是按照剛剛我們第一案的處理方式部長這一案應該沒什麼問題因為我們剛剛第一案討論過了好不好對"},{"start":14244.133,"end":14268.673,"text":"這一個我想就因為跟第一案基本上的精神是一樣嘛所以是不是在鮮奶、兌換線這一個部分兩個月內你研議出來嘛好不好是一個選項之一然後兩個就跟第一案一樣的這樣的一個好 那我們第四案我們就照案通過接下來我們來一樣一樣處理我們先處理第三案"},{"start":14270.135,"end":14274.171,"text":"有沒有其他委員有意見?好,我們請培育委員"},{"start":14277.47,"end":14302.639,"text":"謝謝主席那因為這個不是我的提案只是我很好奇我想知道如果我有講錯再請大家糾正最後一段提出說針對老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例要以特別預算的方法辦理而且還要在8年內完成全國老舊校舍拆除重建工作我想問一下教育部那個特別預算應該是行政院這邊才可以提出來的吧教育部本部應該是不可以提出特別預算再來"},{"start":14303.459,"end":14328.764,"text":"八年內就算好就算假設行政院真的提出所謂的特別預算針對這個提案那有怎麼可能在八年內完成全國老秀拆除重建是完成這個部分我可不可以請教育部說明一下謝謝謝謝陳委員的一個關心確實這個特別預算已經超乎教育部的權責我想這個是不宜的"},{"start":14330.304,"end":14357.238,"text":"另外8年因為我們知道老舊的這個教室事實上每年我們今年假設50年8年後還是會有50年所以它事實上是隨時間在滾動更重要的是它是不是安全我覺得這一個才是考量的一個重點所以這個部分是不是也能夠請委員在這個部分再斟酌一下謝謝部長請問一下你是要請哪一位委員斟酌什麼事"},{"start":14359.686,"end":14360.287,"text":"請教育部說明"},{"start":14375.888,"end":14391.112,"text":"就是我也不知道部長還要請誰斟酌這件事但我想我提醒一下就部長我們針對任何一個委員的臨時提案那其實剛才我相信這個部裡面一定有跟您討論過那如果剛剛在討論的時候請您這裡都表達說這沒有問題就是照案辦理的話"},{"start":14395.453,"end":14411.39,"text":"那你可能就應該是有很仔細看過這個案子了那當然這個案子裡面寫的是言義所以這個言義並不是要你一定非得照這樣去執行這是第一件事那第二個如果說剛剛其實您已經表達沒有任何意見那我其實"},{"start":14412.291,"end":14441.451,"text":"突然間您的這個打法又比較寬廣一點那再來還有一點如果您有意見那您要怎麼修改其實剛剛可能這個案子要上來所以這一點我想我也跟委員會所有的委員報告跟部長報告過去行之有年我們對臨時提案的處理方式是這樣的那我想署長也在邊上也可以提醒一下我們過去的處理大概是這樣所以我想是不是我們部長要提一下就是這一個臨時提案您希望怎麼去做修正"},{"start":14442.191,"end":14469.522,"text":"因為我是希望我們可以來做研議啦那研議說這個專案盡可能我們不要去用到可以會排擠到其他預算那假設有一個專案或者是能夠建議行政院有一個特別的預算的方式來做但是一筆專案來做我想會比較好所以那部長您覺得哪裏自然難行要怎麼修正你可以把它提出來我們再來討論跟主席報告是不是能夠請我彭署長這一個"},{"start":14471.547,"end":14472.128,"text":"道屬第二行"},{"start":14486.741,"end":14506.047,"text":"委員剛才也稍微就說這是言議啦那言議就歷來在教文會這邊是給行政部門有一些空間不是說一定強制要怎麼樣這個歷來教文會是有這樣的一個共識所以因為這裡有寫言議那剛才昭偉也特別提到知道"},{"start":14506.667,"end":14535.024,"text":"不是教育部獨立能夠來處理這個案子那麼事前也提醒我們是不是就在倒數第二行提出的後面這邊寫與行政院相關單位合力來推動大概加這樣的一個字眼主要還是前面因為有言議然後第二知道不是教育部自己能夠獨立處理所以加與行政院相關單位合力推動"},{"start":14538.006,"end":14556.713,"text":"蘇董你要不要從那個就是從重新研議開始你把它念完我們大家比較清楚好嗎好我念一下重新研議提出這個引號內的或提出與行政院相關單位合力推動之這樣子這樣報告可以嗎好那我們請林益謹委員"},{"start":14568.667,"end":14596.353,"text":"謝謝主席我想如果比較簡單的話是不是就把最後兩句話把它刪掉就好就是說重新研議提出針對五十年以上或提出老舊校舍這樣就好了就是說後面以特別預算的方式辦理並於八年內完成什麼全國老舊這個這兩句話把它刪掉會不會就相對簡單反正是研議嘛那就是說"},{"start":14597.173,"end":14607.392,"text":"有提到說一次用中央專款的專案的方式在演繹這個方式這樣後面這兩句用特別預算的方式就把它刪掉這樣主席不曉得覺得可不可以"},{"start":14609.384,"end":14636.267,"text":"我想這樣子好不好我們再做這樣的修正你看看就是因為我們都是希望啦就是真的有需要我們以安全為考量防震為考量年限其實可能是次之嘛因為剛剛其實今天我們都有提到有那個30幾年的房子在地震完還是出現大狀況但也有是不是嘛還有5、60年的房子可能今天部長談的他可能有這個保存啊有記憶啊等等所以我想"},{"start":14637.287,"end":14658.881,"text":"連線這件事情我想是可以作為這個次之的條件最重要是安全所以我想我們重新研議然後引號內我們重新研議引號內這個部分或提出剛剛那個署長講的你可能等一下再重新講引號內但是並於8年內完成全國老舊校舍參與中間這一句我覺得我可以把它刪掉這樣好不好那個署長你把你剛剛那個加在那個或提出的中間"},{"start":14665.882,"end":14667.924,"text":"於行政院相關單位合力研議推動"},{"start":14694.827,"end":14717.689,"text":"第一個是我覺得要在這邊要教育部去評估一個特別預算的方式坦白說這是行政院的權責這不是教育部可以在這邊處理的問題所以我覺得特別預算的方式來辦理這個資源要不要就拿掉所以拿掉以特別預算的方式並於8年內完成老舊校舍"},{"start":14719.813,"end":14743.975,"text":"並於8年內完成這個年限的部分也拿掉特別預算跟8年拿掉那剛剛按照署長的講法是說第二個括號老舊校舍拆除重建條例因為是演繹嘛並與行政院或其他部會相關單位合力就把特別預算拿掉吧在這邊討論要不要用特別預算很奇怪啊"},{"start":14745.999,"end":14771.846,"text":"我覺得一點都不奇怪啊這個就是各個委員其實大家想方設法嘛然後去替老舊校舍全國的學生去想辦法那我這麼想啦就是說如果要於8年內去完成這件事情我覺得的確是有壓力而且會有很多的變動因素那這一點呢我非常同意把它拿掉我覺得沒有問題那是不是呢我們可以把它改成"},{"start":14772.766,"end":14787.138,"text":"在倒數第三行開始,重新研議提出引號內的計畫並與行政院相關單位研議以老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例以特別預算方式辦理"},{"start":14789.758,"end":14795.486,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就 «中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向》進行專題"},{"start":14809.795,"end":14811.716,"text":"林盈瑾、裴瑜主席"},{"start":14825.844,"end":14852.602,"text":"來研議要跟行政院合力弄特別預算的事情也很奇怪那所以我是認為可是我知道提案人的好意然後也期待說是不是就是有一筆錢來好好的來做對老舊校舍拆除有一些專案的預算跟計畫所以我認為可是特別預算確實是一個專有名詞所以我是認為說是不是還是特別預算這個字眼把它拿掉會比較妥適"},{"start":14855.504,"end":14857.926,"text":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":14877.365,"end":14882.646,"text":"老舊校舍拆除重建特別的條例以特別的預算方式辦理這個是或提出我覺得是多一個讓我們教育部多一個你沒有這個錢你可不可以試試用其他來去做這件事情我覺得這個放上去是對教育部是有幫助的"},{"start":14896.81,"end":14905.08,"text":"沒有說定時你要中哪一個預算你可以用其他如果是不足的話我覺得這個意思應該是這樣子我覺得對他們應該教育部更有幫助以上謝謝好 謝謝郁真委員那我們請羅廷薇委員"},{"start":14912.233,"end":14932.113,"text":"好 謝謝我們其他委員所提出的雖然這個是行政院專門需要來做特別預算來編列不是教育部的權責但是我想在這個地方能夠來把這個文字列上特別預算來當教育部強而有力的後盾讓教育部能夠跟行政院來反映"},{"start":14932.794,"end":14950.828,"text":"我覺得這是一個很好的依據那大家都是利益良善都是為了孩子為了學童我也希望說就是能夠繼續保持著特別預算這些文字在上面那當然邁域政委員有提到或提出三個字我們只是加強了其他的方案讓教育部能夠在原有的如果能做到"},{"start":14951.468,"end":14963.351,"text":"不惜能夠再來或提出這個特別預算的一個爭取我想這個部分不管怎麼樣都希望能夠把這個文字繼續留在這上面所以我支持那個我們召委的說法"},{"start":14964.895,"end":14993.068,"text":"好 謝謝還有沒有哪位委員如果沒有我想我來整理一下我想我們那個大家第一個共識就是老舊校舍甚至於有危險的我們要全面的盤點然後去做一個不管是拆後重建啦或者是修繕啦等等我想這個大家都沒有意見那錢從哪裡來那我想這上面寫得很清楚我覺得我的這個臨時提案寫得其實很寬鬆也就是說我們要研議這樣的一個專案"},{"start":14994.229,"end":14996.272,"text":"請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席"},{"start":15011.993,"end":15033.073,"text":"這樣的一個修繕或者是產後重建我一定要用這個特別預算來做所以不是這樣可能就是演繹那然後我把這個併餘8年內完成這件事情我也認為可能會有很多其他工程上的變數所以我就把這句拿掉我想是不是剛才幾位委員的意見我這樣子說明不曉得大家可不可以接受"},{"start":15036.195,"end":15060.987,"text":"教育部這邊有沒有問題如果我們就是請你們研議嘛就是針對50年以上老舊校舍拆除重建由中央專款負擔的專案計畫來研議這樣的計畫然後或者你可以提出來跟行政院相關單位來研議老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例也特別預算方式辦理之那最後一條拿掉那就按照剛才署長所講的"},{"start":15062.108,"end":15089.743,"text":"跟委員會報告其實剛才召委已經順了那個整個邏輯那委員們也給我們建議首先在一開始講的那個言議事實上目前我們8月8號也提了那我們繼續來一起來努力但是如果後面那個也是言議的話我們個人是認為歷來教文會講言議都還是保留我們行政單位去評估啦"},{"start":15090.203,"end":15111.683,"text":"沒有說那個就是一定要那樣做剛才昭偉再次講了嘛所以他一方面有程序二方面畢竟是演繹啦所以我們在事前跟辦公室或是相關的委員討論的時候有這樣的一個彈性以及歷來教文會工作型態的默契那我們會來好好的評估喔大概是這樣"},{"start":15112.927,"end":15137.842,"text":"好,那是不是我想就請各位委員我們讓教育部有更大的空間那他針對各種方式研議出來之後那他們去執行這樣好不好所以,不好意思,對不起那所以就是那個我確認一下就是說所以剛剛您說要與行政院相關單位合力合力來研議"},{"start":15140.549,"end":15166.11,"text":"那如果是向……向行政院喔其實齁 來啦 我跟你們講你們真的太複雜了我也不知道為什麼你們想那麼多啦來來來 我們中文我唸一次給大家聽齁其實一兩三句話之內不會有兩個言義啦就是這兩個案子你們看一下引號內的兩個案子都是適用前面那個言義啦就很清楚嘛就是說我們請他們重新言義喔提出"},{"start":15167.231,"end":15188.767,"text":"針對50年以上老舊校舍補強有中央專款負擔之專案計畫：或者是老舊校舍補強重建特別條例以特別預算方式辦理之這兩個都是請他們要去研議這就很簡單了嘛所以下面還有一個或提出但我把最後一個刪掉這樣子中文各位應該很清楚了好不好那第一段不好意思主席因為第一段跟最後一段"},{"start":15189.668,"end":15218.123,"text":"有重複的字眼所以可能第一段也有八年好 來 這樣子喔那個第三案這個齁我們請那個誰可以處理一下把第一段跟剛才最後一段我們剛才所闡述的文字把它寫清楚以後我們來我們再回頭來處理好不好寫清楚以後我們把它順念一次讓所有的委員確認每一個字以後我們再來通過它好 那這個教育部處理一下好不好"},{"start":15220.358,"end":15228.382,"text":"好,那這個要教育部繼續處理,那我們來繼續處理第5案第5案各位委員有沒有意見?好,那部長第5案有沒有意見?"},{"start":15241.028,"end":15258.637,"text":"這個就是建請教育部規劃長期專案計畫來補助各地方政府逐年整建校舍所以這一案應該還好吧?沒什麼問題吧?好,那第五案我們就照樣通過那第六案第六案,庭委有沒有要做補充說明?有沒有?"},{"start":15264.571,"end":15280.666,"text":"當然這個我也是寫八年啊,所以我想說如果可以整合在這個昭緯的統一案的話,這個這樣好不好?整合在一起,可是我想要拜託就是昭緯就如果,如果討論我這案我可以先撤掉的話,就是我跟你一起統一嘛。"},{"start":15281.206,"end":15303.802,"text":"好 那不然就把我們把那個第6案跟剛剛的第3案我們來並案處理好不好對對對 但是我有一個建議就是說拜託我們現在正在寫那個重新研議提出瓜虎嗎不是寫針對50年以上老舊校舍嗎所以30年以上的現在到底剛剛有講說不講50年30年也有可能啊"},{"start":15307.921,"end":15337.085,"text":"所以50年這個數字是不是要下調30年以上老舊校舍而且我要再特別拜託就是或無死照老舊校舍因為我們選區有一些校舍是沒有死照的那等於就是違建了那基本上它也有年限的問題也是30幾年啊但是我覺得針對無死照這些老舊校舍是不是也應該關心一下"},{"start":15339.974,"end":15341.555,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":15359.522,"end":15376.042,"text":"既然要研議不應該只有50年以上36年的花女大樓就已經正成圍樓然後我的選區中興國小有無死罩的校舍那現在沒辦法耐政補強"},{"start":15377.725,"end":15397.612,"text":"他只剩重建我比較具體先處理一下現在羅廷偉委員同意把第6案並第3案處理但把第3案要再做更細緻的一個修正原來本席提出來的是針對50年以上老舊校舍但是庭委委員講的也有道理因為我們現在"},{"start":15399.793,"end":15426.056,"text":"RC是50年嘛還是55年嘛那專照是30年嘛那所以呢我想我們以就是最基礎的標準30年來看那我同意把它修正為針對30年以上那總之因為這個30年以上就會包含50年了這樣各位委員有沒有意見我們先一個一個來修先把50修成30各位委員都同意嗎這還可以齁好那就這個地方把它修成30"},{"start":15430.043,"end":15431.044,"text":"就是在第三案的第一段倒數第四行開始"},{"start":15450.287,"end":15455.309,"text":"教育部應於年底前與相關單位研議提出針對30年以上老舊危險"},{"start":15475.498,"end":15477.28,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席"},{"start":15501.516,"end":15515.03,"text":"然後兼顧大家給我們這個比較彈性要好好的研議二方面也是三十年但是也加上部長剛才提的老舊是要文獻、危險我覺得你直接念文字就好不要再加其他的"},{"start":15517.102,"end":15528.353,"text":"所以我們就是從這個案子倒數第四行教育部應於年底前與相關單位研議提出引號內然後50改30年然後後面的或提出的提出三條還沒有老舊後面要加危險兩字"},{"start":15541.836,"end":15565.897,"text":"與相關單位研議提出針對30年以上老舊危險校舍拆除重建由中央專款負擔之專案計畫或引號內,然後到引號結束以維護師生安全最後第四是不是容許我們跟幕僚單位再來作業就照上面第一段的文字這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":15566.958,"end":15572.803,"text":"因為他的續寫方式基本上是一樣啦就不重複沒有你就把它唸完就好啦就三段為什麼做事要做一半"},{"start":15575.489,"end":15600.254,"text":"倒數第三行一、年底前與相關單位研議提出引號針對30年以上老舊加兩字危險校舍拆除重建專案計畫引號或提出兩字刪掉或直接接引號辦理引號這樣子後面最後去掉句號這樣"},{"start":15607.54,"end":15632.865,"text":"好,所以你刪掉了你剛剛原本自己講的就是與行政院相關單位研議嘛,是不是?你把這個刪了因為我這是呼籲你之前說的,所以這個刪掉了好,那剛剛那個署長已經有重新說過了引號內沒有動,只有就是把50改30老舊加危險,那其他的部分就是應該就照原來的文字這樣各位委員有沒有意見?沒有喔?"},{"start":15638.56,"end":15639.922,"text":"修正後文字通過"},{"start":15670.78,"end":15681.81,"text":"因為我們後面還有大概16位左右的委員要質詢我想是不是我們休息五分鐘好 那我們休息五分鐘後再繼續質詢沒有"},{"start":15697.931,"end":15709.682,"text":"一、六案他是說他已經併到第十三案把五十改三十案他併到這裏啦部長他就十六個,剩下兩張五齁?只要兩張五齁,中午就請出牌了"},{"start":15720.174,"end":15721.516,"text":"本期視頻就到這裡,謝謝觀看,下次見!"},{"start":15735.35,"end":15762.756,"text":"怎麼樣?你那一個無照使用事實上都是地方前線不是嗎?地方他應該沒有照使用他應該就本意前者看要去補照還是要改善根本也無關啊我們之前其實都有讀腦機因為他那是有些條件是照他沒有記者我們就不加這樣而已但是我們安全性都有先維護的沒有啦但是你講不清楚但是這個問題是可以"},{"start":15763.916,"end":15784.569,"text":"不然我們就看有什麼法令這個折承地方,他沒有改善我們有什麼法則因為他就沒有使用執照,真的有一次發生事情就說近年教育部縱容地方沒有使用執照的教室也在使用"},{"start":15787.609,"end":15794.677,"text":"所以他先去取得史照比較好?大部分都是消防設備的問題嗎?長痛不如短痛"},{"start":15809.073,"end":15826.009,"text":"希望他們中午看有一些委員會不要提選沒有啦,我跟你說我覺得我們剛剛經過討論的時間有一些委員會放棄,因為等太久然後等一下你放心,時間一到我立刻交給主席因為剛才跟主席報告,剛才那個誰在提到說台中"},{"start":15826.86,"end":15845.594,"text":"不是有這個羅委員在談說那個沒有就是沒有實用製造那事實上這地方全球我們我跟妳說我剛才一下去跟他們講因為剛剛那個就是一片嘛我搖頭我底下有點頭有這樣然後也有人覺得我幹嘛搖頭因為我自己人然後我下去跟他們講說這是一個馬蜂窩請不要脫好嗎"},{"start":15847.535,"end":15875.39,"text":"對不對,我說這個事情不要再講了,這個在這裡講不完那個事實上是等於地方就應該沒有使用執照你就不應該讓他用,不然就叫他補正啊地方教育局就不應該補正所以我沒有處理啊但是你教到潘石岳?不會不會,我幫你處理好了,好歹好歹因為確實你沒有使用執照哪一天發生事情?一定是...沒有,那個不能舉啊可能沒有"},{"start":15997.213,"end":16002.496,"text":"好,接下來我們繼續進行執行,讓我們請張雅玲委員謝謝主席,我們有請鄭部長好,我們有請鄭部長請問一下"},{"start":16018.717,"end":16019.758,"text":"委員好"},{"start":16048.697,"end":16053.862,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向 進行專題"},{"start":16066.468,"end":16067.068,"text":"中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":16096.788,"end":16105.191,"text":"到底大家都喝倒了嗎?那如果沒有那是哪裡卡關呢?可不可以請部長說明一下謝謝委員關心協同的這個核鮮奶的這個問題確實到目前來講10月4號最後有一家這個總共是事實上是有9個縣市完成訂購的作業那"},{"start":16124.743,"end":16147.643,"text":"確實因為城鄉種種的因素包括安能保鮮的這樣的一些機制它確實也造成這個地方在整個這個政策的執行上它沒有那麼果斷我想這個都是我們也希望說在未來在推動的時候能夠"},{"start":16148.483,"end":16152.209,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":16163.886,"end":16188.721,"text":"其他委員報告日本在這個部分它是結合營養午餐如果我們現在是營養午餐本來各縣市各學校本來有一些可能也有也包含提供了一些鮮乳但我們現在是等於是外加不在營養午餐裡面的一些規劃裡面所以它也確實面臨到了一些地線上學校的行政作業上的一些挑戰"},{"start":16189.662,"end":16213.678,"text":"跟整個政策、良化免疫在執行上也面臨上...那我想我先問一個重點啦就是說因為目前國務涵蓋豆漿還沒有決標嘛但我想要知道說如果還沒有決標未來如果又再次流標我們這一段到底要怎麼處理呢?因為的確是要解決這些乳糖不適正的孩子也需要補鈣嘛因為重點就是補鈣嘛那這部分我們有沒有一些規劃?"},{"start":16215.387,"end":16222.911,"text":"也感謝委員的一個關心那稍請農業部來補充一下像羊奶也是一個可能是一個選項所以我們預計什麼時候會來"},{"start":16226.044,"end":16248.604,"text":"做好相關的一些後續作業呢?因為我們現在可能萬一就是我剛剛講的萬一還是沒有辦法決標的話是謝謝委員提醒一直都有在準備啦特別是像豆奶供應商其實我們也繼續尋呢潛在可能廠商那剛剛提到其他的選項包括都羊奶或其他我們也都一直有在準備像羊奶協會我們這禮拜就要跟他們開會所以一直都有在準備這件事"},{"start":16249.565,"end":16271.562,"text":"好 那我想就是說因為我們現在這個政策其實已經上路了但是還是有蠻多小孩是沒有喝到的齁所以我還是希望要求這個教育部和農業部針對我們這次的延誤來提出一個策進的報告那一個月送到我們辦公室 謝謝齁那剛剛其實有提到就是說冷戀的問題嘛齁因為其實我想一個我想請教部長還有"},{"start":16273.243,"end":16284.103,"text":"次長就是說我們一個先爐離開室溫他如果離開冷藏進到室溫幾、多少時間之內一定要飲用完畢呢?"},{"start":16286.873,"end":16311.491,"text":"應該這樣說啦其實在鮮乳的部分我們是要求廠商一定要全程冷列運送這是第一點那第二點對於有些學校有冷藏設施的那比較沒問題沒有的話我們是請他要提供那個保冷我了解我的意思是說鮮乳離開冷藏我們多根據營養來說的話健康來說因為食安還是一個很重要的部分所以他大概可以在室溫下保存多久的時間呢"},{"start":16312.412,"end":16332.422,"text":"我們其實建議在打開之後30分鐘之內全部喝完30分鐘嘛,我們是這樣建議是但我想就是說因為鮮乳的忍戀從供應商配送到學校收穫這一段因為我們如果有忍戀來處理的話那當然是沒有問題而是有一個很重要的關鍵在於學校收穫到學童飲用的這一段其實學校現在是沒有冷藏設施的"},{"start":16333.442,"end":16346.424,"text":"還沒有冷藏設施所以這會造成食安上面的一個問題我認為我們這個是一個很好的政策但是我們也必須要去確保說我們的孩子在飲用的這段時間都還是在一個安全的狀態"},{"start":16348.416,"end":16372.438,"text":"那我想剛剛其實也有很多的委員其實有提到就是說我們可能有鮮乳券啊各種的方式讓小孩可以在一個安全的狀況去使用啦不過我還是想要提醒啦就是像我剛剛在會議上面發言的如果我們只有上到超商給這些鮮乳券的時候那可能就會排擠到我們本土酪農業的一個發展所以我們還是希望說在這個方向我們"},{"start":16373.298,"end":16399.603,"text":"一定要去積極的思考如何讓我們的小孩可以喝得健康然後也可以要同時保障我們本土農業的一個發展那再來就是我想要這個就延續到就是其實我之前跟教文會我們有去考察這個營養午餐那其實大家都有說偏遠地區的學校他們沒有冷藏冷凍的儲存設備所以造成他們容易斷吹所以這次班班有鮮乳這個政策的話我也希望"},{"start":16400.243,"end":16428.59,"text":"教育部可以針對偏遠學校的冷凍冷藏設備設施進行全面的盤點跟清查來研擬相關的措施來補助或是幫助這些偏遠地區的學校因為雖然剛剛大家說我有開放很多選擇我有保久乳、我有羊乳、我有什麼很多選擇可是在偏鄉的學校他們是沒有選擇他現在只剩唯一的選擇就是保久乳但是我覺得還是要在這件事情上面我們應該一併的一起來處理讓他至少可以有他是冷藏鮮奶還是保久乳的選擇這部分"},{"start":16429.89,"end":16452.651,"text":"可以請教育部來想辦法嗎?我想我們會通盤來檢討那可不可以在一個月內也一起把這份報告寄送過來我們辦公室呢?那還有就是說,因為其實我們這幾年農業部一直有在講要吃在地在地消費啦那其實我想這個部分應該也是可以喝在地啦弱農業是不是也可以來去"},{"start":16454.392,"end":16474.701,"text":"農業部可以來思考一下如何推廣本土的諾言諾農業在地,它可以提供給在地的學校好不好,那這可能也可以讓小孩子從小就習慣家鄉的在地特色這才能夠回應到你們一開始一直在推的這件事情那最後我想要再根據這件事情再做一個"},{"start":16478.481,"end":16483.605,"text":"我們剛剛在講這個政策最希望就是有來補充孩子的每日涵蓋攝取量"},{"start":16485.12,"end":16509.531,"text":"那我看了這一份報告我們國建署的報告國民的營養調查台灣小孩普遍都沒有達到這條黑色線的位置7到12歲小學生是59%那女生大概是49%但是呢青少年喔國中生喔他是36到40%那我就在思考啊我們這個班班喝鮮奶的政策是不是可以在"},{"start":16510.111,"end":16517.827,"text":"中央邀請各縣市政府來討論之後我們也可以一併的把這個政策延續到國中端的部分呢"},{"start":16527.35,"end":16538.658,"text":"這樣的一個目標當然是很好的但是確實以我們現在的供給量跟所有的問題我想我們當前就先把這個目前的一個政策紮紮實實的檢討然後希望能夠落實"},{"start":16540.72,"end":16541.14,"text":"當然是可以的"},{"start":16564.127,"end":16566.63,"text":"臺米的颱風造成學校受損,有361校受損,7,766萬台幣"},{"start":16581.388,"end":16609.472,"text":"七千七百六十六萬元的一個新台幣的損失那其實中南部有非常多的學校也是受到這個影響那其實凱米跟不管是強振也好或是這次的三陀爾都帶來非常多的影響那我想請教一下我們現在雖然有編列了相關的經費我看了一下我們是有這個教育部在上個月有韓報、行政院來申請一百一十四年到一百一十七年度的一個老舊校舍的拆除重建計畫我想問一下這個經費是三百五十億對嗎"},{"start":16610.842,"end":16614.604,"text":"是的那現在的進度呢?現在已經得到行政院的核定了嗎?現在還在審議中現在還在審議中,是因為總預算卡關嗎?是嗎?這是新增預算嗎?是的那我也是還是再次呼籲啦,因為這個新"},{"start":16636.616,"end":16637.156,"text":"謝謝張雅玲委員接下來我們有請林黛樺委員"},{"start":16669.937,"end":16691.223,"text":"有請部長本席針對教育部現在在前瞻計畫所執行的雙語教育表達我的肯定也非常感謝國教署對我高雄市的支持我們從學習的減量、減量教學在英語的部分"},{"start":16692.623,"end":16712.195,"text":"的實驗計畫一直到我們這個校校有外資我真的都非常感謝教育部尤其國教署對高雄市政府相關的前瞻的雙語政策的先試先行的支持但是執行到現在本席認為有一些政策的不足應該全方面的深化跟加強"},{"start":16713.255,"end":16735.707,"text":"在我分了幾個三個部分,第一個前言,第二個目前雙語推動的問題,第三個具體的建議在問題的部分我爬梳有六點,不管是第一個對雙語教育的誤解,第二個缺乏雙語教育的創新教學第三個師資培訓以及引進能缺乏彈性,第四個我們在推動當中是缺乏誘因,第五個重點"},{"start":16737.068,"end":16763.034,"text":"缺乏整體藍圖第六個我們限制外資教授課程的範圍侷限了孩童學習的英文環境具體的正建議本集這邊也羅列了八項好我們的前言在台灣推動雙語教育應該要配合全球教育趨勢在19年前2005年歐盟國家制定的多語言教育政策白皮書所以在爬出幾個國家、地區"},{"start":16763.894,"end":16781.754,"text":"每家地區推出雙語教育,有英文加中文、英文加西班牙等以及東南亞國家聯盟定定英語為東南亞國家聯盟的工作語言在東北亞、日本、韓國也有正式的雙語教育政策"},{"start":16784.096,"end":16811.294,"text":"在歐美國家也針對腦神經科學專家跟兒童教育專家提出雙語教育對兒童的認知跟多元思考是有很大幫忙的可見雙語教育是全世界教育政策也越來越多的國家在國小到高大學的時候採取英文為部分課程之教授語言也就是本席在高雄市也強力推動的就是EMI"},{"start":16812.034,"end":16835.03,"text":"的這樣的一個這個教學理論的落實好那對於國人目前也對於整體雙語教育的認知不足、國際教育的發展趨勢有所誤解所以本期認為教育部應該針對國際教育的趨勢收集國外研究的成果或國外雙語教育的現況尤其是"},{"start":16835.871,"end":16840.557,"text":"每日韓家語宣導研究,並納入雙語教育實質是雙語教育專家的意見規劃整體的台灣雙語政策,導致一些偏差和誤解,造成家長及第一線教師恐慌和不解"},{"start":16853.934,"end":16880.399,"text":"好,我們的問題從雙語教育的誤解當中其實有人這個部分教育卷他拿出了一些過往不實的誤的來過往的資料過時的資料來誤解雙語教育認為雙語教育是殖民教育可是他忽略了在聯合國教育文組織之前公佈的培養全球化公民教育的白皮書所提到的多元語言跟文化教育的重大方向"},{"start":16881.159,"end":16884.742,"text":"二、我們缺乏雙語教育的創新教學本期認為這應該是要逐步推動所以國小、國中應該是由生活、藝能、體鑑課不得納入知識型或會考的學科就是體育、畫畫、美術等等家政"},{"start":16904.036,"end":16916.52,"text":"高中以上才去評估是否以專班不是普施,漸漸納入自然或科學領域。那針對這些學科也應該要有什麼,除了漸漸推動,還要有雙語課綱或課程執意,並導入創新教學。"},{"start":16928.49,"end":16951.766,"text":"說實在這個是我直接就跳了啦跳到最後面的建議因為本席這邊的講是你們國教署沒有做到的你們國教署這邊部長您直接承諾啦是不是要制定我們國家的雙語教育政策白皮書這是第一個"},{"start":16952.426,"end":16956.79,"text":"第二個,我們相對應的雙語教育的課綱跟指引這你們能做得到那第三個,我們要再結合相關的這個國外的研究來包括我們雙語教育的專人來在我們國內辦理相關的研討會或政策公訂會跟說明"},{"start":16976.967,"end":16982.291,"text":"第二、訂定雙語教育藍圖及雙語課綱第三、舉辦國際研討會及教育創新工作坊第四、外局母語教師參與雙語教育實質教學及在職訓練"},{"start":16999.604,"end":17025.194,"text":"五、建立雙語學校制度,雙語學校制度規範都要典範出來。六、落實教育正義,更多的資源引入到公立學校或偏鄉,而不是只有有錢人才可以學雙語。七、鼓勵成果發表及開放教室的觀摩。七、進行問卷,針對雙語教育執行兩年以上的學校進行問卷,而不做任何"},{"start":17025.794,"end":17028.176,"text":"請您參考桃園市教育局,可以好好去參照一下"},{"start":17050.387,"end":17051.487,"text":"主席、本席、想邀請部長"},{"start":17066.869,"end":17068.931,"text":"針對於國人鈣攝取不足嚴重,所以7歲以上的族群參考取量只有5成。"},{"start":17086.23,"end":17104.136,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下再加上紐西蘭液態乳明年要零關稅的扣關對於我們的產業影響非常的大所以政府提出了學童乳的政策你們為期14年總共的經費有44億"},{"start":17109.858,"end":17131.638,"text":"但是這個政策本席是非常的支持可是你倉促的上路之後你的配套不足所以在這樣的情況之下你所謂的政策你的slogan是什麼?班班喝鮮乳在基層裡頭直接給你改名叫做什麼?班班飽酒乳為什麼?部長"},{"start":17136.704,"end":17157.877,"text":"跟委員報告,我想主要就是希望讓兒童能夠喝得健康而且要喝得安全,我想這個目標是肯定目標大家一次,但是你倉促上路配套不足,在這樣的情況之下,班班喝鮮乳改為班班飽酒乳,你覺得你的主標被改了,你的看法呢?"},{"start":17159.278,"end":17179.437,"text":"我想在這個因為為了這個健康保鮮然後安全所以有一些其實保酒乳也跟鮮乳它的營養價值基本上它沒有太多的一些差異就整個來講我們當然希望只要能夠在安全跟保鮮"},{"start":17180.778,"end":17181.199,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":17195.755,"end":17211.292,"text":"政策上路陳茹寧說的希望喝鮮乳但是喝不到在這樣情況之下有兩個部分要去做調整學校沒有冷鏈那你怎麼樣能夠讓他可以喝到這個鮮乳你必須要跟廠商去做調整"},{"start":17212.433,"end":17231.022,"text":"二、國內的鮮乳到底能夠提供多少量這也是你必須橫向的跟農業部去做討論才能夠達到你真正的班班喝鮮乳你把這個方案去精進出來詳實資料怎麼樣精進方案給本席好不好部長多久時間可以告訴本席你多久可以告訴我"},{"start":17239.721,"end":17259.639,"text":"一個月一個月告訴本席你把你的方案配套要拉上來接下來本席要請教的全台屋齡剛剛我們也經過主席大家提案所通過也就是超過50年的有2000棟超過30年的有8300棟在這樣的情況之下我們看到你114年到117年你統計是350億剛剛我們"},{"start":17265.524,"end":17275.947,"text":"有一個方案也就是把50年改為30年且是老舊有危險的剛剛通過是如此請教行政院核定了這一筆351的經費了嗎請教目前還在審查中還沒核定嘛是不是行政院還沒核定嘛是不是是所以有沒有信心要讓他通過"},{"start":17289.767,"end":17311.372,"text":"我想這個院長對這一個老舊校舍的一個安全的一個有非常重視本席要告訴你一個重點因為物價指數的關係所有不分藍綠白的委員對於教育我非常堅持投資教育希望永遠在不能再拖安全是最重要的所以這一筆預算您"},{"start":17312.092,"end":17330.086,"text":"自己行政院要趕快核定而不要只有口號讓民間覺得你行政院為什麼還不核定呢 對不對我們全力的支持老舊校舍的一個改建我們希望部長你一定有這個能力趕快讓行政院核定照顧我們海總的安全好不好我們會努力謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員那接下來我們部長還需要回去休息喝口水嗎"},{"start":17340.948,"end":17344.389,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請教育部還有農業部的部長我們有請鄭部長跟杜次長"},{"start":17379.553,"end":17401.059,"text":"是,孩子就是媽媽心目中的寶貝了大家都會去關心這一塊為了對應就是2025年的紐西蘭乳品零關稅的政策農業部與教育部推出班班喝鮮乳的計畫再結合食農教育讓小孩子習慣國內的鮮乳的風味"},{"start":17405.708,"end":17410.47,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":17421.474,"end":17424.736,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":17440.968,"end":17469.691,"text":"要如何全台是否全面落實這個部分還有根據農業部提出的素面報告鮮乳保鮮是由乳品紮工廠這邊提出的保冷袋我這邊有幾個問題要請教報告書中提到輸運過程需要GCAP配方確保溫度要在7度以下"},{"start":17471.533,"end":17497.592,"text":"並提供保冷袋的保持冷藏的效果但這樣的冷鏈物流在實際的操作中是否百分之百保證全程符合的標準還有特別提供到偏鄉地區的學校輸運格過程也很長可能面臨就是溫度的控制還有就是"},{"start":17498.633,"end":17506.455,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":17518.339,"end":17533.751,"text":"謝謝委員關心學童營養也支持我們本土的酪農產業那這件事情是這樣就是說其實在衛福部對於鮮乳的保存其實不只在製造部分它在運送的過程都要能練這是在運送過程"},{"start":17536.233,"end":17561.472,"text":"保冷袋的部分只是在他離開他的運輸車之後拿下來在學校因為有些學校有的有冷藏設施因為台灣大概也有七八個縣市其實已經有提供每週給學童喝一到兩次鮮乳的經驗所以學校其實也有這樣的有些部分啦但有些確實是沒有冷藏設施的所以我們的要求廠商你必須要提供保冷袋"},{"start":17562.132,"end":17580.055,"text":"讓至少可以在外面保存兩個鐘頭這是第一點那為了食農教育也是為了安全我們知道什麼東西在什麼時候吃是最好的也是最安全的所以我們是建議打開之後在30分鐘之內就把它喝完不要分次放很久或者事實上也避免會有一些食物安全的問題以上"},{"start":17581.296,"end":17604.435,"text":"好 謝謝這個對班班有鮮奶這個計畫是很好對大家早上就是我們的營養但是冷戀物的穩定性這個是要需要就是要有一個措施來去保鮮所以我們是要如何達成這個效果所以我們就是要具要有具體的方案"},{"start":17605.316,"end":17612.119,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":17622.543,"end":17642.416,"text":"全國國民小學年齡31到41年的校舍是有9,324棟。剛才我們也有說50年改為30年。正式呢,過去6年行政院撥款的就是531億,平均每年88.1億。"},{"start":17647.279,"end":17661.813,"text":"因為大部分都是要來用廁所的部分但是呢,我們沒有聽到就是說其他的設施要去改變不好意思,謝謝蔓玉珍委員因為我們的時間到了那是不是我可以請教育部"},{"start":17666.797,"end":17692.703,"text":"你是不是會後把這一題的議題給教育部那請部裡面用書面回答或者去那個委員辦公室好不好對 因為我們很注重是全方面的啦不要就是針對就是這邊用好了那邊也要就是這樣子的話就是知標不知本我們希望就是要全上面好 蔓越委員我想那個會後請教育部這邊再跟您詳細回答好不好OK 好 謝謝謝謝蔓越正委員那部長私上請回"},{"start":17694.003,"end":17694.263,"text":"臨月請委員質詢"},{"start":17710.677,"end":17736.174,"text":"委員好部長還有署長好今天要跟部長談三個問題都是跟幼兒園有關的幼兒園如果環境跟管理上都不安全的話孩子在幼兒園怎麼會是安全想先來問第一個問題也就是加油站離幼兒園只有8米的道路這是最近桃園發生在中壢經濟部的確加油站的設置管理規則"},{"start":17737.354,"end":17752.746,"text":"針對小學、中學跟教育站要距離100公尺可是沒有規定到幼兒園我不知道經濟部是不是因為不知道幼兒園可是教育部也不關心這一塊因為教育部的幼兒園及其分班基本設施設備標準也只規定到加氣站"},{"start":17754.147,"end":17777.854,"text":"沒有規定到加油站為什麼更小的幼兒園的小孩子不用被保護反而關是小學中學都還要被保護那加油站為何跟幼兒園這麼樣的近所以部長想問你同不同意幼兒園的孩子比較小需要被保護第二個加油站到底是不是可以納入幼兒園及其分班基本設施設備的標準"},{"start":17780.813,"end":17799.446,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指正我想這是對幼兒園的一些學童的一個受教的安全這附近環境有一個更好的一個品質我想我們可以來比照這個小學跟中學的所有的一些規範我想這是合理的"},{"start":17800.106,"end":17825.153,"text":"好,就麻煩部長要盡快那桃園這一塊是不是也可以請求這邊去做協助否則僅距離8公尺而已一旦發生事情的話這麼多孩子在那邊能夠去救援嗎?一定沒辦法我覺得這個可能要請你這邊先跟我們的桃園那邊做溝通那問題二是不當對待的案件我覺得通報我就亂象重生"},{"start":17825.973,"end":17828.014,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就 «班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形»進行專題"},{"start":17848.669,"end":17860.248,"text":"主動通報有沒有裁處為什麼這樣提在新竹的嘉峰幼兒園也是發生這樣的狀況因為原方認為輕微所以就想要說服家長說我不要通報"},{"start":17861.383,"end":17879.119,"text":"我跟你協商沒有這回事齁因為疑似本來就要去通報那第三個狀況就是說根據幼照法的第26條只要是知悉就要通報可是一樣加封的第二案的時候一樣的就是認為說我要看完監視器你有第一案已經還只確定事上是有被"},{"start":17879.699,"end":17881.3,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就 «班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形»進行專題"},{"start":17896.01,"end":17898.491,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":17912.439,"end":17926.068,"text":"團體代表比例失衡幼教教育團體的人代表數比較高而少團體事實上非常的少雖然主管機關代表過多接若採取公幼案的時候那就會有問題"},{"start":17927.369,"end":17947.049,"text":"主管機關代表反而過多所以這三個都是一個我們很期待要解決所以上次質詢過期待你們修法可是看起來沒有在認定委員會沒有去規定每次開會的比例所以就會變成有時候真的要裁除的時候兒少團體的一個人都沒有到如果我只有聘兩個人連一個人都沒有到的話"},{"start":17947.83,"end":17950.091,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":17967.777,"end":17979.131,"text":"最重要我上週我的那個TRADE很多的連那個TRADE有來TECH我說我們的學生的體育作業為什麼放在YT的影片"},{"start":17980.305,"end":18008.816,"text":"哪個老師把他們留出來了這麼大量的那我後來去上次艾運去要求下架可是學生就在問啊那老師你怎麼可以把我當作繳交給你的作業甚至我自己都刪除了老師你怎麼可以把我放到YT而且不是只有一個所以我請部長這邊能夠盡速去處理採處以上謝謝好謝謝林院勤委員我想會後請部長再給林院勤委員做一個回答好不好謝謝"},{"start":18010.597,"end":18012.858,"text":"吳春城委員有請教育部政部長"},{"start":18034.558,"end":18060.418,"text":"委員好部長你辛苦了整個一整天大家今天在問這一個班班有鮮乳其實這件事立法院難得有這麼有趣的一個議題應該是一件很好的事情看了鮮乳就很開心但是為什麼好像質詢得這麼的沉重"},{"start":18062.059,"end":18065.232,"text":"部長覺得為什麼這麼好的事情為什麼會變得這麼沉重?"},{"start":18068.544,"end":18096.719,"text":"應該說大家都希望對這個政策是肯定的是有價值的但是在執行過程我想我們行政上還有可以更精進的我想這是我們願意悉心來檢討這個鮮乳但是根據這個調查看起來多七八成的學校都選擇要用薄酒乳這個鮮乳應該是更好的吧"},{"start":18097.839,"end":18121.106,"text":"跟那個口味啦、營養啦、健康跟我們來講當然都會選擇保久爐那問題就是不安心嘛問題就是鮮乳很棒但是呢就不安心啦那不安心的問題就是我們現在推出這個政策太充足嘛那配套措施沒有到位嘛"},{"start":18121.886,"end":18142.283,"text":"那另外一個鮮乳是一個危險的東西喔基本上是一個危險的東西喔那我們在思考這個政策的時候我覺得行政院最近很多農業的一些過剩或者是滯銷的東西喔都在找很多單位像我們之前有班班有實班"},{"start":18143.456,"end":18144.276,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":18165.731,"end":18190.552,"text":"我們不會想是說現在哪裡有鮮奶過剩的問題,或者什麼需要,或者是紐西蘭的這個扣關的壓力,所以我們必須要來應付一下,應該都不是這樣的問題吧,是嗎?是,所以這一個應該是一個長期政策,但是我們用短期的措施,一樣的在應付前面的衝突的上來。"},{"start":18191.753,"end":18216.102,"text":"所以這個 我想剛才大家提到很多的困難、冷戀的問題、倉儲的問題其實你這個 如果所有的小學都喝鮮奶 這個是一個很大的商機這個很大的商機 你只要有商機所有的商家剛才講那些的困難 他都有辦法解決"},{"start":18217.421,"end":18218.362,"text":"所以有沒有整套計畫?"},{"start":18236.612,"end":18253.278,"text":"包括我剛剛講的冷業那種超商那個偏鄉都可以賣牛奶的啦所以他們沒有問題問題是我們有沒有跟農業部跟酪農我們有沒有政府要整合一下嘛農業跟這個有沒有這麼大的商機我們的酪農的這一種輔導計畫"},{"start":18255.899,"end":18269.115,"text":"有沒有整個的推廣,如果教育部提供這麼大的商機,他們會不會很積極的想要去處理好這個事情?好,所以呢,因為我還有其他問題,是不是可以請教育部一個月提供給我一個你對這個鮮乳計畫的長期計畫的構想,可以嗎?"},{"start":18275.742,"end":18279.723,"text":"這件事情就是營養三法的最後一里路像剛才講的那個牛奶一定要跟營養午餐併在一起處理你那個小孩子"},{"start":18304.068,"end":18333.339,"text":"不是吃飯時間你給他拿一瓶鮮奶你想你非常危險的啦小孩子晚了忘記了超過剛才講半個小時要喝掉他如果到一個小時喝了瀉肚子誰要負責任嘛所以呢我要講的一個就是為什麼我要問教育部我們的營養午餐共餐法現在很多大家都一直在等教育部的版本現在什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":18335.536,"end":18353.185,"text":"我們確實現在我們也在這個在研議相關的一些還在研你進度什麼時候那個部長可以請問你要幾年啊半年、一年、三年"},{"start":18354.225,"end":18371.42,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們在研議的過程中地方政府在尤其偏鄉地區還有人員禁用大概有價格機制三個議題上大家還在磋商中我們會盡快的送到行政院之後一起來審議我們這個已經耽誤30年了"},{"start":18375.384,"end":18403.488,"text":"跟委員報告現行很多的法制包含學校衛生法及相關執法都在執行中包含偏鄉有關的從110年以來花了62億左右都處理中不過委員講這個很重要的確這三個議題在處理後很快就會在行政單位會有共識這給我們一點時間謝謝還是沒辦法有一個時間所以現在一樣是不知道什麼狀況是不是"},{"start":18406.873,"end":18432.908,"text":"第三個問題剛才講那個營養餐是一個非常重要的問題決心的問題啦要有這個決心解決的問題再的話也很謝謝我再推動的壯世代教育部對於這一個第三人生大學我們8月12號的時候在辦那個壯世代的公聽會那個林次長他有代表出席"},{"start":18434.349,"end":18450.122,"text":"我還是要感謝他,他四個小時都沒有離開,非常投入最後他還做了一個承諾,他還講說這個年底,今年的年底會發布,教育部會發布第三人生大學的試辦計畫那我現在請問這個部長目前的進度如何,能夠如期的發布嗎?"},{"start":18458.562,"end":18482.49,"text":"我們基本上是朝那個方向在努力就是方向年底可以發布嗎?我們年底會公告這個事辦的一個計畫然後114年的上半年就會進行這個說明會跟審查作業然後114學年度就開始會有一個小規模的下個學年度就會開始招生這樣子"},{"start":18484.43,"end":18508.095,"text":"OK 記錄起來我們很期待看到教育部因為很多學校在等而且想要響應像華灣大學現在已經開始有了嘛他的平均大一的學生就五十幾歲了是我們也感謝委員的一個關心這個壯世代的一個學習跟許多的一些相關的一些政策的推動"},{"start":18508.815,"end":18531.13,"text":"那環環當時事實上也是教育部這一個合訂的一個計畫所以看起來是可行嘛在未來的一個大學我們也希望在許多大學他可能要有更積極的對未來的學生聲援的一些想像不要只是在想18歲18歲終究每年只有大概15萬到17、8萬嘛"},{"start":18533.251,"end":18558.582,"text":"但是30歲以後我們其實有更大的一個期待那至少有1000萬以上的一個可能可以在未來的一個重回終生學習的這樣一個學習的一個這個自我成長或者他公主或者學生上的一個很高興看到教育部有開有這樣大就也可以解決少子化大學的危機嘛然後給大學的一個發展的路"},{"start":18559.162,"end":18577.855,"text":"那最後是不是因為大家非常的關注我們有很多因為壯士代是很個全面現在行政院陳時中政委主持的這個壯士代跨部會小組本來是6個部會後來發展到有13個部會加入"},{"start":18580.017,"end":18592.184,"text":"這個教育部教育在這裡是半點非常核心的就是給這些人裝備好他才開始有辦法去就業好啦發展這個經濟也好這教育部"},{"start":18594.264,"end":18615.306,"text":"關鍵重重之重所以可不可以請部長可以一個月之內把目前在關於第三人生大學的醫學可以給我辦公室可以沒有問題好的那非常謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝吳春城委員那部長請回座"},{"start":18618.429,"end":18635.019,"text":"接下來我們有請黃建豪委員質詢,時間4分鐘好,謝謝主席,那我們先請教育部部長鄭部長好,我們有請鄭部長"},{"start":18643.499,"end":18657.384,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想大家今天非常關心我們老舊校舍的整建補助這個部分那我想幾個細節先跟部長來確認一下這個目前為止老舊校舍31年到49年的校舍的棟數有8324棟50年以上的還有2226棟這個數據差不多是這樣嗎是嗎"},{"start":18665.467,"end":18675.394,"text":"好,部長謝謝但既然書記長表示50年以上經過這麼多年來從馬英九政府、蔡英文政府到現在賴清德政府都還有當然滾動市場每年每年成長現在還有2226棟的這個50年以上校舍要是屬於50年以上的"},{"start":18680.698,"end":18708.9,"text":"那當然五十年以上按照一般社會的邏輯都希望說能夠重新的改建能夠重新的來處理這是我們的認知那當然我們先提到說按照現在老舊校舍整建補助的審查原則你們有一個部內有一個這樣的原則一般地區每平方公尺兩萬六千元也就是一坪大概大概是八萬八點六萬元左右一坪左右一坪八點六萬那部長你知道如果現在蓋房子一坪的造價大概多少嗎"},{"start":18709.858,"end":18729.228,"text":"毛坯屋就好?一般的?一般大概可能差不多要10來萬我跟部長報告,這個也可以去問內政部我們台灣現在蓋這麼多社宅政府來辦的這社宅一坪造價平均就是20萬以上沒有到30萬,20萬出頭所以如果今天這個補助原則這個是103年訂定、108年修正到現在過了這麼多年"},{"start":18736.852,"end":18753.429,"text":"如果補助原則現在還是一坪8.6萬做老舊校舍的整建言下之意你等於說你要蓋新的校舍是不可能的因為新的校舍以現在的造價標準就會來到20萬以上這個不是蓋豪宅就是一般的標準所以你不就等於說讓這些老舊校舍"},{"start":18753.789,"end":18754.389,"text":"佈局長鄭英耀"},{"start":18775.326,"end":18776.507,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席"},{"start":18794.156,"end":18815.748,"text":"這一個保留我想這也是...沒關係部長當然有些校園有歷史...但是單價我們會以實際性來檢討好,所以有些校園有歷史我當然認同有些校園有歷史的建築當然不能隨便就拆嘛當然要大家共同的決議但是部長我想問一下既然您這樣提那您能夠保證這所謂的至少這50年以上2000多棟它目前都沒有危險嗎?"},{"start":18816.869,"end":18820.933,"text":"我先不針對31年到19年那段喔,光是50年以上這2000多棟,我想問一下,所以教育部現在是講說這2000多棟目前為止都沒有安全疑慮,是這樣嗎?解決了嗎?"},{"start":18840.431,"end":18860.147,"text":"在111年之前我們事實上是有整體的一個普查而且也做了一些老舊有安全疑慮的該防政補強或是該拆除的我們確實做了一個徹底的從98年到111年總共改善了這個數字我有你們有發過新聞稿我知道所以就是說現有的2000多棟對教育部來講已經都做過普查沒有這個"},{"start":18864.651,"end":18891.947,"text":"以目前來講是沒有這樣的一個問題但是如果委員有具體的一些我想我們願意立即來做一些改善好那第一個我是希望這個平均造價應該要去依據現價依據現狀去調整不能再用108年的這個金額來面對明年開始的這個相關預算那第二個我知道你們有說所謂的350億的改建的這個預算350億的目前在停在哪?是停在行政院還是停在什麼地方?這個你們會不會爭取?"},{"start":18893.427,"end":18919.236,"text":"謝謝委員﹖因為可能委員的一些﹖手邊的一些資料說﹖也許我們還有一些11年以後的更新的我想事後我們再提供給委員參考。好,部長謝謝。好,謝謝黃俊華委員﹖那請部長先回座。好,接下來我們有請李博毅委員﹖李博毅委員﹖李博毅委員不在。那我們有請黃國昌委員質詢。"},{"start":18929.172,"end":18951.829,"text":"謝謝主席,然後有請部長,體育署署長可以上來幫忙誰?然後有請部長,然後體育署如果有人可以上來幫忙體育署今天有人,體育署今天也有人是不是?好,那就先請鄭部長,那體育署的代表好不好委員好部長好,全體的國人啊,非常支持台灣"},{"start":18953.086,"end":18962.097,"text":"要給運動選手好的待遇也正是因為這個樣子所以我們的政府才會考慮要成立體育發展部嗎?"},{"start":18963.379,"end":18989.758,"text":"成立部會是一回事在這個之前我們國家所補助透過協會補助給選手的每一塊錢都要花在選手的身上這是我向來的原則當初國民體育法在改革的時候就是有不肖的協會胡搞瞎搞嘛胡搞瞎搞嘛好我之前檢舉迷你足協拿假的單據亂報帳"},{"start":18993.835,"end":19011.464,"text":"這件事情你們7月的報告說錢追回來了問題是錢追回來然後呢?拿假單據報帳的協會要不要追究責任?請問部長我想這肯定的,一定要追究責任目前體育署追究有什麼責任?請說明"},{"start":19015.75,"end":19037.144,"text":"公務委員報告我們現在目前大概就是依照審計部的部分已經把那個多益的錢、益齡的錢領回來這我剛講過就不要再講了另外我們現在也那個會計師在查核的部分會在10月底會完成我們依照會計師查核的這個部分我們來做整個行政的處理第一個,會計師還不用查核完就支報有用假單據報帳嘛錢退回來了對不對請回答"},{"start":19040.894,"end":19045.197,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":19061.022,"end":19088.535,"text":"給了他什麼處分各位報告我們會在會計室的這個正確的這些資料查核的資料做一併的處理什麼時候要處理這個會計室的資料會在10月底之前給我們報告奇怪你聽不懂喔不用等會計師啊現在就已經確認有假的單據啊部長也說了啊不是錢捉回來就沒事啊你們還要拖多久還是迷你主席背後政治靠山很大"},{"start":19089.656,"end":19115.842,"text":"不敢處理,是這樣嗎?需要多久?需要多久?我想我們還是在會計師的這個資料全面了解之後,我們一定會做行政的...沒關係啊!我會持續追下去啊!我們大家等著看啊!看這些協會是不是背後有政治人物撐腰啊!我體育署軟趴趴啊!軟得快要跪下去了!"},{"start":19116.994,"end":19143.106,"text":"部長可不可以承諾這件事情一定追究責任到底我想是的因為有任何的違法我想我們一定會依法來追究到底對嘛當你們自己就承認有違法了嘛不要講空話啦具體的行動我今天利用質詢的時間在幫一些選手還有選手的家長請命冰球協會來先看一下2016年U18賽事就乍臨補助"},{"start":19147.881,"end":19165.736,"text":"法院的判決都出來了這個我相信體育署都有掌握啦要不然體育署在管這些協會是在管假的那現在他不是只有2016那個事情喔英俄在在俄山食髓之味完全沒有任何嚇阻的作用2019年冰島"},{"start":19168.695,"end":19184.092,"text":"世界U20冰球錦標賽我們的體育署補助了39萬機票國際冰球總會補助交通費66萬結果每個選手大家花4萬塊去買機票每個人只拿到1萬塊來請問一下副組長這是怎麼回事"},{"start":19188.599,"end":19202.312,"text":"這部分是不是容我們回去再了解好回去好好了解上一次有媒體披露這件事情主席不好意思我只接一分鐘把最後要講的說完就好了那最後一分鐘好就最後一分鐘謝謝主席"},{"start":19204.185,"end":19228.397,"text":"當初2021年有教練家長反應結果你們體育署很會打官腔說單據核銷都合乎規定有嗎?有嗎?請你們回去了解清楚我為什麼說有嗎?來看一下U20體育署補助的金額39萬339萬3你們在上面報的"},{"start":19234.209,"end":19241.273,"text":"八張機票一張49,933元這個數字哪裡來的這個數字哪裡來的為什麼我問這個數字哪裡來的因為我問了選手我也問了家長我面對面跟他們溝通他們來投訴他們很憤怒他們拿單據給我看說委員我們只買了四萬塊協會拿了四億一張49,933"},{"start":19264.42,"end":19291.841,"text":"就跟體育署要錢體育署是閉著眼睛在審核啊結果每個選手跟家長最後拿到一萬塊主席又站起來了我給體育署時間回去了解一個禮拜之內書面回覆可以嗎查清楚喔給這些選手跟家長一個清楚的交代謝謝好 謝謝黃國昌委員那我想部長也先回座休息一下"},{"start":19294.771,"end":19301.995,"text":"王宏威委員、王宏威委員、王宏威委員、王宏威委員有請牛許廷委員質詢。"},{"start":19319.022,"end":19340.05,"text":"委員好部長午安這今天我們討論一下這個中小學的老舊校舍補強跟整建計畫一些執行的狀況因為這東西當然媒體高度關注嘛那當然其實本席認為這計畫利益雖好啦但難免違德不足啦所以希望跟教育部做一下討論看看有沒有一些空間這按照教育部的報告裡面寫這個計畫其實從民國98年開始做對不對98年你先聽一下數字98年到105年總共編736億"},{"start":19347.173,"end":19351.258,"text":"那時候補強辦理的動數是2998,拆建大概是1324,這個比例大概是3比1啦。到了106到108年,這個預算是390億元,補強的效數是2296,拆建剩下580,比例從3比1變成5比1啦。"},{"start":19365.876,"end":19385.467,"text":"一百零九年到一百一十一年,經費剩一百八十八點五億,補強的一千三百九十七間,拆建一百九十三間,數字變八比一、九比一甚至到十比一去了。經費越來越少,比例也越來越懸殊啊。部長,原因是什麼?我想它這個隨著這個時間,當然有一些數量就在減少。"},{"start":19391.304,"end":19417.864,"text":"數量在減少我跟你講我在意的是比例啦為什麼選擇補強的比選擇拆建的多因為這個是早期就是整個系統性的針對921大地震以後所造成的可能的一些圍爐跟這個需要耐震補強就按照這個期程去做規劃其實是因為你預算裡面也是有一些規定比如說"},{"start":19418.664,"end":19435.181,"text":"教育部國民及學前教育署補助公立高級中等以下學校改善校舍耐震能力作業要點第三點第三項怎麼規定的說本署僅補助拆除整地所需經費其餘重建工程所需經費需由主管地方政府自籌經費辦理"},{"start":19436.542,"end":19455.776,"text":"你其實裡面有很多的這樣一個規定把這個本來是很好利益的這個概念去做了很多的限縮那你現在講比如說我舉桃園為例啊比如說我們現在就有四所學校有拆建的需求我從你這裡中央拿到4.5億元如果光每一所學校就要1到1.5億你怎麼處理你這個還是分三年編列的計畫"},{"start":19456.736,"end":19484.506,"text":"所以說比例上來講我覺得是有點失衡剛剛也有很多委員有講以前的這個時代造價可能一坪十萬現在已經超過二十萬可是你補貼算下來一坪才兩萬多塊所以其實不太好用那我有看到這個按照新聞裡面去寫因為大家關心嘛所以教育部當然也從善如流有增加新年年度114到117年度變成350億嘛其實是有一個大量增加的狀況可是這樣增加的幅度夠嗎"},{"start":19486.214,"end":19508.792,"text":"會不會又跟過去一樣是只能做比較多的補救而沒有辦法去做拆建這件事情部長我想謝謝委員關心現在確實他在這個中央跟地方怎麼樣去合作因為在許多的這些教室上的一些安全的一個考量他也要必須要有地方政府來做一些協助"},{"start":19510.473,"end":19528.116,"text":"我現在要問的就是說比如說你這樣這些裡面的要點啊要不要與與時俱進來做一些修正我想我們可以來這一個檢討這一個陳委員所講的怎麼樣與時俱進能夠真正中央跟地方來一起合作來改善這些所以我是擔心被你說補拆不補建"},{"start":19528.516,"end":19530.398,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":19552.016,"end":19577.605,"text":"補強的比例遠遠高於拆除的比例原因也在這個地方因為很有可能補強他拿不到未來拆建的經費這些都是實務上你在執行這個政策的時候可能會遇到的問題額度增加我們當然樂見但我希望教育部不要為德不足相關的要點多聽一下地方的意見給予地方有利的支持可以嗎好的好 謝謝好 謝謝牛許廷委員接下來我們有請徐富奎委員發言"},{"start":19585.454,"end":19611.846,"text":"謝謝主席 有請鄭部長好 有請鄭部長委員好我想今天我們很多委員都在關心這個班班有鮮奶這個政策那我本席個人認為這個政策其實不應該是由教育部一個部會來承擔責任包括我們的農業部跟衛福部也應該要共同來努力來做好這個事情那所以有請我們農業部的杜次長"},{"start":19614.534,"end":19638.246,"text":"市長本期在6月18號我在我們萬丹的酪農產區就有開了一個協調會當時針對這個酪農的這個產業升級跟因應未來明年這個7月上路這個台牛經濟貿易協定這個案子我們也跟我們部裡面有交換了很多意見希望能夠協助我們這個酪農的這個產業升級包含做一些多元加工那當然"},{"start":19638.766,"end":19650.832,"text":"班班喝鮮奶這個政策也是其中一項那但是很遺憾的是到目前為止除了這個教育部在推這個政策之外那農業部針對這樣子一個產業升級部分有沒有什麼樣一個對策"},{"start":19653.237,"end":19667.022,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們本土的弱農產業因為當然產業是要永久的所以當然不是只有說把好的產品提供給我們學童這一條路而已包括產業本身的不管是從淨零從降低成本從提高品質從"},{"start":19668.863,"end":19692.988,"text":"有序經營這塊其實都是要來做的我想教育部在推廣這個政策頂管真的需要我們農業部大力的來協助包含這個整個冷鏈的系統配置包含怎麼樣從產地到學校因為我想現在我們第一線的教育人員他們也歡樂的是什麼萬一到了學校之後沒辦法按時候的時候造成這個學生的一個飲用安全的問題我想"},{"start":19694.228,"end":19717.82,"text":"這部分也不是只有教育部能夠單方面來處理,農業部是不是可以承諾共同來努力?是,我們一定會一起努力,謝謝。好,那我想除了這個班班核鮮奶的政策之外,那我想另外最重要就是我們教育部現在除了老舊校舍的改建之外,我想請部長看一下,這是我們東港東龍國小的跑道,不然你覺得這個跑道還可以用嗎?"},{"start":19720.182,"end":19741.529,"text":"這當然一定要改善的一定要改善齁學校跟縣政府都爭取了很久但是一直得不到我們教育部正面的回應這我想我會後再來或者請議署有沒有這甘不走向我們的安全還有很多我們社區的長輩都要這樣的跑道上面來運動來休閒"},{"start":19745.731,"end":19772.48,"text":"因為它確實是已經到需要改善的一個程度了好 那我也跟部長報告一下也請國部長我們屏東縣目前還有43所的學校需要整修那預算大概需要5.5億元那以屏東縣政府目前的財政狀況沒辦法完全負擔那請教部長是不是可以在這一兩年之內我們來做全面的一個盤點來做一個全面的改善"},{"start":19773.737,"end":19795.005,"text":"是否可以請部長正面答覆目前體育署也在收案期間那會整體來評估然後來協助地方來做改善部長那個體育署我們都問過了他的經費都用料而已啦這部隊也要想辦法要怎麼改革要不然這樣下去不是辦法"},{"start":19799.022,"end":19813.279,"text":"我想我們會在114年以邊來納入來優先來做改善那另外最後一個部分就是針對我們屏東縣有待整理的這個老舊廁所總共有112間學校"},{"start":19814.48,"end":19814.7,"text":"請教育部部長"},{"start":19835.684,"end":19836.324,"text":"主席有請部長"},{"start":19865.319,"end":19865.922,"text":"鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":19871.178,"end":19895.12,"text":"委員好部長好今天教育部跟農業部一起來報告班班有鮮奶執行情形那這項政策7月份提出說開學9月1號上路讓全國公立國小及其公參之附設幼兒園每週可喝到兩次鮮奶一學期44次但其實很多學生到現在一口鮮奶也沒喝到"},{"start":19895.82,"end":19917.334,"text":"那我想請教部長既然是班班有鮮乳為什麼全國各校大多是選擇薄酒乳根據媒體統計有九成的北區學校勾選薄酒乳中區七成南區跟東區也超過六成這是班班有鮮乳嗎還是說乾脆請教育部改成班班有薄酒乳"},{"start":19919.09,"end":19935.408,"text":"我想這一個確實在整個班班有鮮乳我們當然還是希望有一個更健康的一個鮮乳可以喝更做不到啊沒做到啊我想我們也確實內部也在做許多的檢討"},{"start":19937.845,"end":19959.13,"text":"這件事情就可以看到我們的整個政策協調部分要花的功夫還非常多就看到教師團體跟家長團體反應得標的乳品廠商只負責將乳品送到學校不負責分送各班那學校又沒有能力保藏、冷藏鮮乳一送到學校所以"},{"start":19959.77,"end":19959.89,"text":"以臺北市為例"},{"start":19977.071,"end":19999.032,"text":"北市教育局統計有高達九成以上的學校因為沒有冷藏設備所以擔心保鮮問題所以寧可放棄營養價值相對比較高的鮮乳而要選擇保酒乳那保酒乳廠商則表示只能滿足五成需求因為不知道班班喝鮮乳的政策會延續到什麼時候也很難再投入設備加開生產線所以"},{"start":20001.795,"end":20010.548,"text":"我要跟部長說就是說基本上你就發現整個政策溝通協調從上到下都是一團糟配套都沒做好嘛 對不對"},{"start":20012.452,"end":20040.342,"text":"所以我想我們確實需要有一些整個過程上運送所有的這個程序確實有這個精進的空間有一句說降帥無能累死三九不想用那麼重的話講了但確實如果說你今天政策思考不夠細緻思考失當你就會發現你的政策目標達到了沒有沒有達到嘛班班有鮮乳沒達到嘛對不對目前嘛"},{"start":20041.209,"end":20062.054,"text":"目前確實還有一些這個挑戰不是一些啊 大得很啊不但沒達到 然後呢你還把這個學校、校方、老師、學生累得半死你連基礎設施的評估有沒有做 教育部有鮮乳總要有什麼你知道班班有鮮乳的前提班班要有什麼"},{"start":20063.493,"end":20082.805,"text":"有一些保鮮的一些相關的一些設施冰箱啊保鮮啊 對不對所以你不是說今天倉促推一個班班有鮮乳你先至少先做到校校有保鮮保持冷藏鮮乳的冰箱要有吧所以因此這是我剛剛講就是說那請問你現在還要繼續推班班有鮮乳嗎要不要繼續推"},{"start":20088.188,"end":20107.911,"text":"我想我們會努力來改善那請問冷藏設備怎麼解決?每個學校要不要補助設置冰箱?那設置到什麼程度?到學校的部分,設備部分教育部你要擔多一點責任我只問你要不要班班有冰箱?要不要?"},{"start":20108.735,"end":20128.004,"text":"我想至少從學校裡面優先來改善這是可能的改善什麼設備啊就是這一個冷藏設備相關的設備因為時間有限重建的部分校園的校舍問題我會另外用書面的再發給您好 謝謝 以上好 謝謝羅志強委員那我們請部長先回座"},{"start":20131.176,"end":20150.555,"text":"邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在陳亭飛委員、陳提芬委員、陳提芬委員不在徐曉欣委員、徐曉欣委員、徐曉欣委員不在賴世保委員、賴世保委員、賴世保委員不在何信淳委員、何信淳委員、何信淳委員不在吳佩奕委員、吳佩奕委員、吳佩奕委員不在"},{"start":20151.395,"end":20174.887,"text":"蘇慶泉委員、蘇慶前委員、蘇慶泉委員不在高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在廖偉祥委員、廖偉祥委員、廖偉祥委員不在謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員不在蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員不在"},{"start":20178.774,"end":20195.755,"text":"報告委員,今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢。另有吳佩奕委員、高金素美委員、林倩琦委員、李燕秀委員提出書面質詢。"},{"start":20204.816,"end":20229.049,"text":"關於今天會議我們作成以下的決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面來答覆報告委員會今天的議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝"},{"start":20240.142,"end":20240.162,"text":"議員會議結束"},{"start":20268.724,"end":20276.112,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向 進行專題"},{"start":20286.926,"end":20293.39,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":20308.38,"end":20316.507,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","委員發言時間":"08:31:40 - 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們承諾本來4年那我們提早的一年希望116年6月完成這個露天裸露的情形當然這個裡面呢是先由副土打包然後慢慢的逐步來做處理"},{"start":2497.283,"end":2512.936,"text":"將地方把量能夠提升那逐步的解決這個問題那最重要的是我們希望一次廢棄物的廢棄物可以完整的處理這個要全面的升級啦那當然這個升級也需要我們支援雄安促進法也跟各位委員報告這個法呢我們現在"},{"start":2514.478,"end":2532.714,"text":"雖然過去這幾年都有在做這個法可是我們後來我上任之後也跟我們的同仁做了深度的討論目前我們正在修改當中那我們也成立一個8加N把各種的產業產官學界集合在一起希望呢在這個今年年底之前能夠送到行政院"},{"start":2533.814,"end":2546.501,"text":"我們希望在下個會期再送到立法院能夠請委員來給我們充分的指教因為我們法令的改變各種的主共的改變這個才是最重要的我們會積極來做以上所有報告謝謝謝謝部長報告請問各位有沒有意見有關本次會議各項書面資料均會列入"},{"start":2560.994,"end":2565.739,"text":"紀錄刊登公報我們現在就開始巡打做以下宣告"},{"start":2567.213,"end":2569.514,"text":"現在我們請登記第一位委員陳昭志委員歡迎"},{"start":2602.658,"end":2630.737,"text":"謝謝主席有請彭部長部長早安部長沒想到會期一開始邱部長跟您就一起上新聞了那邱部長說這個環境部應該要編列足夠的資源來幫助醫療院所進行檢探我覺得他的意思好像是說這個檢探的責任要歸在環境部那部長覺得委屈嗎"},{"start":2632.616,"end":2645.885,"text":"其實不會委屈啦 就是說 委員會給我20秒還原一下其實總統是很關心 院長也很關心 我們常常在開會要如何檢探總統是覺得我們跟衛福部辦了一個綠色醫療的活動 這個很好"},{"start":2648.007,"end":2673.564,"text":"但是呢要幫醫院找到資源所以我們當然碳費不是不可能因為衛福部比我還有錢啊衛福部是我的幾十倍啊那當然他要來做那如果環境部不可能把碳費給他嘛那當然這個時候我們就要想辦法找別的資源所以總統有提醒我啦可以透過保險業的資源來做啦所以這個我並沒有被罵啦就是撩一下啦我是跟這個邱部長說我被總統"},{"start":2674.104,"end":2701.973,"text":"您念了一下,量一下啦。 不會全責分工的角度來看這個檢探當然是要環境部跟衛福部大家一起合作啦那這個一起推動尤其是政策推動的這個部分那但是我要談的就是說其實這個醫療機構裡面的每一項活動都是非常高度的專業他要對這個醫務的管理或是整個機構的運作是相當熟悉那以這個角度來看其實衛福部是"},{"start":2702.893,"end":2728.862,"text":"最有能力當然也要盡起責任來幫助這個醫院尤其在現在醫院都還處在一個非常高耗能的一個階段怎麼樣來做出這個執行這個檢探的一些指標我想這個部分是是兩個部門都要一起合作我就是很公平的持平的來講因為過去我都在醫院服務所以我也希望這個政府相關機構應該一起來把它趕快大刀闊斧的列出"},{"start":2730.623,"end":2746.379,"text":"醫療機構檢探的指標來引領整個醫療事業這是我們的期待接下來也是環境部可能要多擔一點責任為了因應全球的氣候變遷等等以及全世界都在做淨零排放的趨勢跟努力"},{"start":2748.301,"end":2774.109,"text":"那各部會都一定要從方方面面來一起著手那請問部長您的團隊目前對於如何串聯各部會進行檢探是不是有一套比較具體清楚的一個協調跟支持機制呢?好,包委員這個目前由行政院的鄭麗君副院長也跨級召集所有的各部會那我們現在在重新盤點因為包含2030、2032、2035我們都有一個新的目標所以我們很積極在盤點所以也請委員再給我們一點點時間"},{"start":2776.59,"end":2786.617,"text":"因為其實如果照各部位目前算出來的量是很難減碳的那我們現在正在用一個各有野心各有企圖的方式來進行其實簡單的議題其實牽涉太多部門了我們瞭解但除了開會討論之外其實這個具體的行動一定要趕快來跟上我也希望未來的溝通是順利的"},{"start":2795.043,"end":2822.866,"text":"那麼未來我們才了解一下這個進度那剛剛您也提到日前這個衛福部跟這個環境部有舉辦了一個非常盛大的綠色醫療就是醫院主管高階主管他的那個領航營的一個活動那老實說本席認為過去衛福部在這個領域綠色醫療做的還不夠多其實說等於還沒有做除了今年3月他公布了一些醫療院所探排查的結果之外那目前針對如何"},{"start":2823.186,"end":2823.526,"text":"好,沒問題"},{"start":2844.721,"end":2859.806,"text":"那我想請教彭部長針對醫療機構減碳有哪些策略上建議第一個您有一些想法了嗎第二個您覺得衛福部是不是也要編列預算來配合減碳活動包委第一個是我們跟經濟部跟金管會"},{"start":2860.686,"end":2888.203,"text":"我們三個部位有合作然後我們要用深度節能的方式那我們有做好分類有的是負責公立醫院像我們環境部是要負責私立醫院等於是說我們會編列一個我建議醫院不要馬上做盤查啦把節能最重要節能例如說他省了多少電省了就可以少繳一些支出所以我們目前呢應該在未來這一兩個月內會公佈我們會一套的做法深度節能幫助醫療系統深度節能的做法會出來"},{"start":2888.883,"end":2908.589,"text":"所以你覺得你建議並不是覺得先做探盤查因為醫療機構我們當然是希望能夠做啦但是探盤查對醫療機構的這個負擔也是一筆支出啦所以我們會覺得說先檢探先檢探是最重要的這是很重要的好前一張前一張好那我也希望這個前一張照片再前一張"},{"start":2909.995,"end":2926.746,"text":"希望這個次長不要哪個醫院他通過淡白的趕快去沾光沾光以後就是官員也少做這種事大家聽到了專家環境部說最重要先節能先節能這個是很不一樣很重要的一個專業的想法回到這個"},{"start":2930.936,"end":2932.397,"text":"那這個處理執行原則後來有公告嗎有人知道嗎"},{"start":2962.008,"end":2982.74,"text":"天然災害廢棄物應該是沒有因為當時在公告裡面有兩個點我想第一個事業部分由事業自行清除或委託公民營的這個廢棄物清除機構執行機關來代為這是其中一點第二點是釋然性就是可然性的部分優先用焚化的方式來處理"},{"start":2984.201,"end":2999.894,"text":"那麼就算這個處理執行原則並沒有公告但是目前我們有這個廢棄物清理法的及相關的這個執法應該還是要按照一般的這個做法來做所以我想請教由事業執行清除或委託公民營廢棄物清除機構執行機關來執行清除這樣是正確的嗎報告委員我請問我們的防災處"},{"start":3011.517,"end":3012.858,"text":"主管機關來負責他的一個監督跟他執行"},{"start":3023.527,"end":3043.563,"text":"那就不是事業自行清除囉?您談的是這一點嗎?他應該是自行清除或委託公民委員會去處理那剛剛我講那個原則是沒有問題嘛那我今天想詢問的是部長你是不是知道現在各縣市環保局的公有焚化爐幾乎不收釋然性可燃性的事業廢棄物您知道這件事嗎?那你知道為什麼嗎?他不收欸"},{"start":3049.984,"end":3065.96,"text":"跟委員報告齁,那個收的原則是要跟一般廢棄物相容的,他才會收。那有些事業他是比較高…沒關係,我跟你講,簡單的說齁,因為一般的廢棄物都處理不來了啦。所以事業廢棄物根本就沒得處理。部長,現在連長照機構產出的這個事業廢棄物,現在都沒地方去耶。"},{"start":3069.784,"end":3094.88,"text":"那更不要說工廠出來的這個廢棄物那這一次天災造成的失業廢棄物自然沒處可去啊部長這個問題很嚴重啊就是做不到嘛就是根本沒處可去啊包委員其實如果天災的話是先放在那個地方其實做好土炭處理不是馬上拿去燒啦好那我們來看一下廢棄物清理法基本上按照廢棄物清理法第28條就是說迷霜廢棄物是優先啦"},{"start":3099.603,"end":3113.283,"text":"有餘裕才有失業廢棄物的處理另外一個重點就是說中央主管機關他有必要時有調度權他能夠調度現有的廢棄物這個清除處理措施那我現在的問題是說"},{"start":3114.705,"end":3136.32,"text":"那世界這個環境部根本無從調度為什麼呢因為現在公有的這個焚化爐根本沒有餘裕啊那你的調度權呢這個部分你有解方嗎要有餘裕那這個原則我們是支持的就先處理民生廢棄物但是現在根本沒有餘裕了那你的後面的調度權就不用談了啊現在有解方嗎"},{"start":3137.236,"end":3166.723,"text":"包委員其實每個縣市它的失業廢棄物因為它是焚化爐都有跟地方政府有簽約有的是BOT的方式所以它還是有在處理失業廢棄物那現在因為剛剛好啦剛剛還非常的滿所以這個問題就會出來了那你剛才說到的時候遇到天災的時候有餘裕啊有餘裕現在遇到天災的時候就必須說先分類好然後我們再做同一個調鋪那焚化爐只是處理的一個部分而已包含了掩埋或是整個的回收再利用都是一個處理的方式"},{"start":3166.943,"end":3167.123,"text":"事實上現在是這樣的"},{"start":3197.184,"end":3208.549,"text":"有靠山的業者就能分配到進場權配額沒有靠山沒有辦法有時候會造成地方政治人物去作梗所以環境部是不是要來解決這個問題?你們的SOP是什麼?"},{"start":3212.797,"end":3224.004,"text":"目前其實報告委員其實例如說以臺北市來說的話他只願意接受外面的大概只有3%所以其實這個問題說委員是是很大嗎3%等於沒有對主席再給我一下子快好了快好了那排隊進場量因為沒有確切的這個許可這個許可保證等於任由市場喊喊喊量喊價那沒排到隊的人怎麼辦呢請問部長假如今天公有焚化爐這個焚化廠拒絕了"},{"start":3238.672,"end":3266.857,"text":"那你怎麼會建議怎麼來建議這些可燃性的失業廢棄物去哪裡呢因為這個民營這個焚化業者的價格有時候很高那失業單位或清營單位他們只能乖乖的配合可是我覺得在這個情況下你人性沒辦法考驗就是會有一些業者他就開始亂到亂買那如果沒有辦法根本解決公營的這個焚化爐的問題處理量呢而且平均讓大家能夠平均的進場這個就助長非法的那個爛到啊"},{"start":3267.617,"end":3294.988,"text":"部長對不對這個問題所以我最後兩頁投影片就是希望我有一個全循環的這個科技園區啦能夠來重新來處理因為現在其實我們環境部喔您說的沒錯這個時程要很快啦要很快對部長對於各地方政府的供應分化路供應分化路要如何公平的分配給各業者的進場權環境部現在有沒有一個底因為我還是要強調就是說環境部目前還是沒有真正對事務廢棄物有一個好的規劃"},{"start":3296.944,"end":3313.72,"text":"因為那個是要事業主管機關那個經濟部要負擔很大的責任那我們也要求他的各種工業區他必須要自己來處理那部長那最後就我們大概什麼時候可以有個答案嗎就是對於整體事業廢棄物的規劃的部分包括公有的量能問題然後分配權的問題"},{"start":3315.562,"end":3316.602,"text":"我們是希望看到整個完整規劃還要看到進度好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝主席謝謝陳委員謝謝部長繼續我們請林業勤委員"},{"start":3352.968,"end":3375.926,"text":"有請澎部長澎部長請部長早也感謝召委安排這一個很重要議題不過在今天質詢之前我想先感謝一下我們清潔隊所有的成員因為災後復原、街道整理還有加班來收家裡的垃圾都是有了我們這些成員"},{"start":3380.88,"end":3400.229,"text":"關於我們的垃圾的一個問題我在上個會期就質詢過兩次了因為垃圾減量呢減了10年多可是好像我們越減越多像天下雜誌9月的時候就有報導說臺灣的垃圾總產量那已經持續增高近5年大概已經是"},{"start":3400.871,"end":3424.538,"text":"成長7% 去年達到319萬公噸 這些垃圾堪比101還要高 臺灣每日人均的垃圾量1.36公斤 近5年大概成長16.7% 我們超越韓國日本跟新加坡 日本跟新加坡他們的"},{"start":3425.598,"end":3426.099,"text":"臺灣的熱色會越減越多,為什麼?"},{"start":3437.1,"end":3466.185,"text":"包委員其實第一個是我因為這兩天我也跟我同事討論說這個垃圾量的計算是怎麼去處理那我本身過去是一個資料科學家所以我發現這個處理的算法齁我們還有進步的空間所以委員報告委員在過幾個月希望下個會期可以跟委員提出一個新的方案如果算那個垃圾量因為包含一般垃圾的跟事業廢棄物每個縣市都不大一樣那第二個呢是我們現在主要是外送業者還有這個所謂的網購其實這個量很大很大"},{"start":3466.585,"end":3494.666,"text":"所以這個其實也造就了這個我們的這個垃圾量居高不下那另外一個呢是我們的焚化爐因為過去都仰賴焚化爐那現在的清營量等於是燃燒量不夠了所以才會造成說天下雜誌報導的這樣的一個情形上次質詢本期就有提到我們看到戰車場掩埋場離市區不遠可是離學校很近那每當發生火災意外的時候對小朋友那就會造成比較嚴重的空污傷害"},{"start":3495.566,"end":3516.48,"text":"所以從今年我從天下雜誌裏邊的研究裏邊看到說我們六都的垃圾量尤其我任養的桃園市128萬噸那六都第4可是今年我們桃園市的省計處給出來報告桃園的廢棄物的妥善處理率竟然是六都的最後"},{"start":3517.381,"end":3535.082,"text":"所以桃園許多的那個垃圾站置場已經成為一座垃圾山了像包括觀音的寶藏垃圾掩埋場那陽梅區的原本垃圾掩埋場和中壢的中福垃圾掩埋場跟龍潭的電子福的垃圾掩埋場那這個"},{"start":3537.415,"end":3542.677,"text":"關於垃圾山的這個問題不僅只有惡臭和污染水源的質疑還有一些存在崩塌活災的問題當然這次報告你也會特別提到說未來怎麼處理可是我也想問一下質詢我在質詢到現在也4個月了"},{"start":3567.424,"end":3584.135,"text":"不知道環境部如何幫助桃園市的環保局處理這個垃圾問題好,報告委員第一個是惡臭的問題那我有些我已經看第二次了那其實惡臭問題它經過一些清消的處理然後其實有改善但是我必須說可能有時候"},{"start":3585.055,"end":3612.976,"text":"有味道又會再起來那第二個呢火災的問題呢其實我們有協助裝飾這個監測的設備然後也顯著的有改善了但是其實像前一陣子苗栗還是有發生這個事情我們會特別注意那第三個呢是桃園的環保局他們其實市政府的環保局也非常的積極所以他們也跟我們報告說希望也希望大概兩到三年內也能夠把這個處理掉那他們先是由復土的方式把露天的燃燒的露天裸露的部分能夠先處理掉"},{"start":3615.897,"end":3626.74,"text":"本來我很擔心環境部會不會放生桃園可是看起來在我質詢之後環境部的確編列了3927萬元來協助我們桃園市政府針對於那個垃圾山的這些問題來做處理"},{"start":3635.435,"end":3654.735,"text":"﹚"},{"start":3654.895,"end":3672.43,"text":"全台的53座垃圾山消失那今年剛才的報告是說三年可是我怎麼算都有點很難理解了怎麼講呢如果說一到八月你現在減少了四個因為53降到49的話那如果算"},{"start":3673.371,"end":3688.039,"text":"你對媒體講的兩年那似乎似乎你只會去尤其如果用一到八月來算的話你似乎事實上只會減少到18場那如果說今天你剛剛提的用所謂的"},{"start":3690.325,"end":3715.357,"text":"就是三年的話如果事實上是從你上任來我們從6月起算的話的確你可以減少的是比較多一點可是還是不會把53場消滅掉我不知道說到底那個落差有到底是什麼所以等下也要請你再做說明所以你在南投的時候也提到說未來要去造那個建一個"},{"start":3715.928,"end":3728.349,"text":"新的粉化爐這些都是你對媒體的說詞那細緻的管理呢你也提到說未來要用AI平台來掌握垃圾量還要強化垃圾掩埋場的防災的措施甚至提到敏感"},{"start":3729.815,"end":3757.19,"text":"環境敏感地區像新竹新豐跟桃園觀音都要先來做處理可是我還是要回到這次的主題來如果彭部長在接受媒體採訪的時候都說臺灣的垃圾問題呢可能再蓋個20座的焚化爐都沒有辦法解決的時候那問題的根源就是在源頭管理那降低我們的垃圾的製造量所以我想問的是今天媒體都在現場"},{"start":3758.171,"end":3759.934,"text":"你過去也是參加非常多的研討會論壇"},{"start":3761.449,"end":3789.854,"text":"時常大談某種減塑我們的垃圾減量的方法學策略效益可是政府應該要談的事實上是目標手段跟社會溝通所以想問這三個我們的垃圾減量目標是什麼因為2023年的垃圾量已經來到3200萬噸了那未來環境部3年5年8年你的目標會是什麼那第二個是你的減"},{"start":3791.305,"end":3793.146,"text":"第三個我們的資源循環促進法的進度是什麼?"},{"start":3813.678,"end":3832.294,"text":"然後環境部是不是已經討論完畢送到行政院那麻煩部長回答這三個第一個是你剛才說的這個數字齁其實現在只有10萬噸減了10萬噸左右但是我們現在在發包左右發包所以應該在明年會加速的來進行所以也請委員在隨時盯著我看那個數字喔"},{"start":3832.694,"end":3848.786,"text":"那資源循環促進法呢其實目前我們正在review當中因為我上任之後也跟同仁談了有的說要合在一起但是有的要拆開所以我們做好一個定義了所以目前我們現在重新在審思然後也把產業產官學全部都找在一起大家一起談"},{"start":3849.446,"end":3871.344,"text":"所以我們預計年底希望能夠行政院能夠給我們同意然後我們再送到貴院能夠來進行審查然後我們的減量的目標呢其實我必須說我們要重新建立一個國人對於這個資源回收的新的觀念目前的確都忘光了那有些縣市的其實都混在一起很嚴重特別是垃圾多的地方大概就是露天裸露多的地方就是沒做好"},{"start":3871.744,"end":3893.571,"text":"那彰化是像這種破帶檢查是要給大力的支持的我們希望複製到全台灣然後當然啦這個我們主要的生態系裡面網購的業者外送的業者其實要負很大的責任所以我也會找他們能夠來談一談要善盡企業的社會責任不能只賺錢所以這個部分我們會積極的來進行因為他們是佔了一個很大的比例"},{"start":3894.011,"end":3923.571,"text":" 那從這個源頭的減量每個人願意開始做 這才是創造這才是政府要做的事 那我們當然我們過去呢其實也辦了很多示範案例例如說我到很多的地方去宣導這個市場去減塑但是我必須說那個是一個一個讓大家能夠感覺的到要做這個事但是要整個生態系的改變我需要還有一些時間例如說我要透過產業界這種生態系能夠建立起來才有辦法做得到所以我們這個部分的會改變跟過去的方式有點不一樣"},{"start":3925.598,"end":3926.782,"text":"資源循環促進法"},{"start":3928.337,"end":3954.386,"text":"現在就是說還要花一點點時間那個一點點時間是多少?我們希望年底年底可以年底前可以送到我們已經跟行政院的長官也在討論說因為我們過去是把它併在一起但是併在一起太複雜了現在希望把它能夠把它稍微切開有一些功能我們的精神也不大一樣了希望年底能夠那個送進來立法院剛剛部長講投核是到可是最後還是要跟你談預算"},{"start":3955.626,"end":3973.24,"text":"因為有錢才能辦事情上個會期我就引用民間團體的數據你的終端處理跟源頭管理的話相差了22倍那今年你在環保團體在行政院抗議的時候你們也出來喊話說119年編列1.2億來做源頭的管理減量的這一部分到114年會把預算提高到2.76億可是我們現在看到你送出來的事實上是1.37億當有進步了"},{"start":3983.789,"end":3983.929,"text":"目前的結論"},{"start":4002.603,"end":4028.781,"text":"部長垃圾山處理你的目標跟策略源頭管理也要盡早對外說明讓大家安心那第二個預算編列項目目前我們覺得雖然有增加可是好像還是很大的落差如果一直強調要源頭管理你也提過蓋了20座的紅化爐都再蓋也是處理不了的話那源頭管理這麼重要的話你的預算這麼大的落差怎麼可能解決掉問題"},{"start":4030.314,"end":4037.658,"text":"會後就麻煩把這相關的我提出來的結論提到我們辦公室來謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝林委員謝謝部長那接續我們請圖前級委員好謝謝主席那麻煩請一下我們彭部長"},{"start":4057.483,"end":4077.372,"text":"委員早部長早部長今天想說跟你討論一下我們有關碳排跟減碳的問題那在2050年我們因2050進行碳排環境部有依我們氣候變遷因應法訂定五年為一期的階段管制目標"},{"start":4079.734,"end":4088.618,"text":"我想了解一下我們現在政府在進行減碳工作上有符合這個減碳的目標嗎?從過去到2022、2023的資料來看的話就是現在只有到2022我必須說2005到2022年這段時間其實減的量很低"},{"start":4098.633,"end":4109.185,"text":"對啊,因為我們看喔2020這第一階段溫室氣體管制這個目標其實確定是跳票啦還有一點點時間2020是沒有達到的嘛對對對那而且我們看20222022它基本上"},{"start":4116.292,"end":4139.551,"text":"也只有減少1.77%那部長好像在也有表示過基本上2025年10%的部分你說這好像有難度對不對有難度對有難度嘛有難度那為什麼2025年減碳10%有難度那怎麼有這個自信還是有什麼政策說在2030年可以減到23到25%"},{"start":4141.773,"end":4167.589,"text":"在2032年的時候可以減到40%這2025年10%都達不到怎麼短短這幾年怎麼部長有這個自信還是有什麼政策要去推動所以報告委員這個就是我要來從民間到政府服務公職的目標啦因為我如果沒有做到這樣我就不用我來了齁那也跟各位因為過去其實減碳現在只有到2022年那個量真的是不夠多那我們的生態系還沒有建立起來"},{"start":4168.389,"end":4196.52,"text":"的確這個問題包括2030的目標從我們一開始接任之後其實來算都很難達到那個目標但是因為這個總統府開了氣候變遷對策委員會之後總統院長跟行政院團隊現在都動起來了所以我們由下而上由上而下都定了不一樣的目標那的確現在有積極了那我們希望在年底的時候能夠公布第三階段也就是說我們到2030、2035的目標能夠出來但是我必須說跟委員報告我們比現在的目標"},{"start":4197.2,"end":4198.02,"text":"所以我們擔心的就是因為你看現在也"},{"start":4221.408,"end":4237.198,"text":"從2020年開始也進行那麼久那2025部長上任以後看這個目標基本上應該你也感覺應該有很大的難度啦應該也蠻困難的所以當然這一方面我們部長是專家啦那能夠奠定這個目標我們也是覺得樂觀其成啦"},{"start":4239.099,"end":4258.64,"text":"那只是說實在話我們現在就是有隱憂喔那因為在減碳的執行上我目前看到我們看這個減碳的執行上我們覺得有很大很大的變數那尤其喔現在我們的能源政策是不是跟經濟部的減碳我們是不是覺得有點背道而行"},{"start":4260.178,"end":4281.077,"text":"能源政策是屬於經濟部的責任那剛剛委員如果說我猜委員是提到的是是不是要燃煤等等或燃氣其實煤轉氣天然氣是一個過度的能源那我也都尊重那但是國際上有不一樣的對於能源有不一樣的看法那現在其實我相信我們這個行政院也在調整也在觀察這個趨勢當中"},{"start":4282.618,"end":4302.446,"text":"所以我們現在看到我們一直目標要減碳可是你看我們2023到2024我國發電的配底扣除水利風利太陽能等綠能還有再生能源等等這些都是排碳量發電非常高你看我們這一次我們現在看到我們臺灣針對這部的發電就達到82.5%"},{"start":4308.428,"end":4336.737,"text":"現在大家在全球碳費徵收的情況下很多的先進國家都在朝著我們低碳力的能源配比而且目前我們河山一號機也已經停役這個數據是在河山一號機還沒有停役之前那現在河山一號機停役那是不是我們現在要補足這個核電的缺口那跟減碳的目標是不是就更遙遠"},{"start":4338.486,"end":4353.732,"text":"基本上這個目標全世界還是以綠能的提升為主當然有些國家其實核能也是一個選項之一目前在包含COVID-28的結論是這個樣子當然我必須跟委員報告因為所謂的這個"},{"start":4354.412,"end":4369.374,"text":"火力燃燒也分兩種一個是燃煤燃氣燃氣比火力大概少了三分之一這是一個過渡型的其實它未來也會沒有但是在綠能還沒有起來或是新的能源還沒有起來之前需要這樣一個過渡的轉換所以那個比例現在可能會比較高"},{"start":4370.035,"end":4391.281,"text":"所以我們現在認為我們現在這個能源政策當然這核能是經濟部的問題可是我們減碳來我們環境的問題是環境部在處理那目前我們減碳跟能源的問題我們減碳已經嚴重落後再加上我們的能源政策現在核酸1號機停役"},{"start":4392.361,"end":4410.061,"text":"明年2025非核家園和核三二號機又要停役那你說你的檢探目標又要達到那麼大的目標這個兩個根本是背道而馳完全是相反所以經濟部的做法跟環境部的做法這個我們執政黨這兩個部會是完全相反的做法"},{"start":4411.468,"end":4426.702,"text":"你又要減碳經濟部又在減核反核把核能停掉又去用天然氣又去燃煤發電然後環境部又說要減碳的目標要達到那麼高的目標所以我不知道我看不出這政策怎麼達得到"},{"start":4427.622,"end":4449.163,"text":"因為經濟部是依法辦事我不能幫他回答但是因為按照現有的法令就是核電廠就是按照這個明年的最後一個季五月初一這個是按照法令來解決那因為過去沒有提出來所以只能按照這個法令去做這樣的程序是啊所以我說經濟部的做法跟環境部做法兩個是相反的做法"},{"start":4449.844,"end":4465.513,"text":"包括委員其實我們兩個部會有時候也都會打架都會意見不一樣的這個很正常的事情所以問題是我們執政應該的目標是要一致的嘛所以我瞭解大概我們10月底我們賴總統會召開第二次的氣候變遷委員會那部長應該會參加吧會參加"},{"start":4468.735,"end":4492.272,"text":"部長好像是裡面的執行秘書我是執行秘書對對那所以我也希望部長在參加這個會議的時候藉由這個會議希望能夠提供正確客觀的資訊能夠兼顧我們環保不要讓這些反科學還有帶有意識形態這些建議讓我們檢探的過程會成為我們檢探過程的絆腳石"},{"start":4493.793,"end":4508.882,"text":"對,報告委員其實這裡面也包含了例如說這種所謂的安全性的評估和廢料的評估這個都要考慮啦那我們這個委員會目前的確是請環境部能夠把各方面的這個資訊弄成是一個平台公開的讓大家能夠來有一個討論的空間"},{"start":4510.063,"end":4522.945,"text":"因為其實不管是永和反和其實我們發現現在的論述裡面一邊是沒有辦法說服另外一邊對立的非常的厲害所以我們環境部會積極的現在我們正在規劃那個平台當中也希望10月底能夠跟大家來報告"},{"start":4524.687,"end":4552.924,"text":"那我想請問一下那個部長你要不要說明一下如果我們減碳的進度落後也讓民眾知道如果落後或失敗的話會對我們造成什麼影響什麼後果基本上如果減碳的進度落後的話當然全球的這個碳定價的這個趨勢已經啟動了所以基本上會變成是一個我們台灣很大的成本那對企業的轉型也會是一個非常大的壓力所以我們還是希望能夠追得上國際的腳步啦"},{"start":4553.584,"end":4579.564,"text":"所以我一直希望我們當然我們環境部也要適時的表態因為我們講減碳這個是國際趨勢不分朝野黨派而且會嚴重影響到我們經濟還有我們民眾健康等等的問題那所以現在我們一定要正視這個高碳高碳發電的問題還有我們要如何去減碳所以現在要將低碳率"},{"start":4580.239,"end":4600.527,"text":"的核能真的我覺得要好好的思考一下一直把核能廢除對於我們減碳這個過程可以說是影響非常的大所以經濟部當然就像部長講經濟部有他的期程要去做的事但是我覺得這對民眾的健康還有整個國際的趨勢還有嚴重影響我們的經濟這都是背道而馳那"},{"start":4604.949,"end":4633.232,"text":"部長也有心要讓我們環境更好而且這個不能影響到我們經濟那我們環境部部長一直在朝減碳的過程訂定這個高的目標可是經濟部的政策跟環境部完全是這個執政上完全是相反的方向所以我說經濟部的做法讓環境部的目標根本就難以達到不但沒有幫忙而且是幫到嘛 對不對"},{"start":4634.012,"end":4654.943,"text":"報告委員其實這個是要一起努力啦那他們有他們的難處有些程序的問題那當然我們還是鼓勵綠能能夠提升為主按照目前現階段的政策目標希望綠能趕快加速但是綠能也在各方面也有很大的問題所以各種的能源在未來處理都會遇到各式各樣的問題這個是我們國家目前面臨到的處境"},{"start":4655.822,"end":4675.189,"text":"好,所以我這邊當然我也期許部長能夠朝著目標前進可是說實在這2032的時候這已經執政黨已經換兩屆了我不知道到時候這個目標要由誰來負這個責任我們希望可以努力來完成啦,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝圖委員,謝謝部長接續我們請盧憲一委員"},{"start":4688.48,"end":4701.227,"text":"我們今天談論的是我們原鄉的垃圾問題那我想先請問部長就是為什麼佔置場的垃圾場還是超過100個"},{"start":4710.575,"end":4724.016,"text":"你上面寫的裸露的那個垃圾場是48場可是戰事場將近100個對戰事是所謂垃圾運作例如說他到那個地方在整理分隊可是他應該也算裸露啊"},{"start":4724.793,"end":4729.859,"text":"那我的私下瞭解是說地方政府焚化爐是很喜歡優先焚燒失業廢棄物因為可以向業者收費阿是不是因為這樣的關係導致我們的戰爭場越來越多"},{"start":4743.144,"end":4769.921,"text":"因為他們地方政府跟焚化爐的簽約的廠商有一些合約的關係所以其實我知道他們有一定的比例大概需要來燒事業廢棄物原鄉地區常常是水源的一個保護區那我們的那個我是希望把我們垃圾山尤其是像尖石啊梨山啊蘭嶼這些比較屬於觀光地區的是不是優先處理不然它永遠都停在轉運跟清運的問題你有去看過我們原鄉的垃圾山嗎"},{"start":4770.681,"end":4793.383,"text":"還沒有我目前只到南投但是我希望可以跟委員再去看一下上次我去蘭嶼的時候還有發生過火災那你說現在是要用AI來測試對不對我希望你是因為現在比較難以達到的地方而不是很好很容易達到的地方你就先AI對不對好可以那個人數少的地方人力缺的地方就應該先做來AI來幫忙"},{"start":4794.994,"end":4824.134,"text":"那也就是說目前台中市政府這邊一直停在2023年那個700公噸這個垃圾因為它的道路中斷有沒有想過用空運的方法?空運的成本是非常非常高啦那這個部分我們環環署署長有一個對策是跟委員報告目前這個梨山跟福壽山農場附近大概有700公噸因為道路中斷的關係他們是現在是協調其他可以"},{"start":4824.995,"end":4830.277,"text":"我希望你不要忘記而且不是只有和平我們還有仁愛鄉阿里山鄉納瑪夏茂林跟桃園這些比較偏遠的地區都需要你們幫忙來垃圾清運跟轉運可以嗎"},{"start":4850.486,"end":4867.793,"text":"我們可以幫忙送到下面之後來處理,但是這端的交通費用我們需要跟人民會來磋商人民會的經費已經不夠了,你不能再跟他邀請費,所以你自己要想辦法我們比他們還少,因為他其實路程非常的遙遠"},{"start":4868.873,"end":4895.931,"text":"現在我們一直都是希望透過我們的綠色和平組織或者是一些志工來幫忙清理山上的垃圾尤其是登山路線那你有沒有走過南安瀑布一直到水裡這條山路還沒有大概要走一個禮拜的時間好像上次2022年這個綠色和平組織在仁愛鄉清了500公斤的垃圾瀑布我相信很多地區應該都是這樣只是沒有人去清那現在鄉公所常常會提那個什麼"},{"start":4901.854,"end":4922.267,"text":"你為了鼓勵這些7年能夠在地就業或者是說很多40、50歲的已經斷層沒有辦法再從事勞力工作的他其實就可以轉化變成我們相公所來雇用他們來整理我們所有山上的道路或者是我們登山的路線不然以後登山路線就變成垃圾山了"},{"start":4923.493,"end":4944.019,"text":"好你可以去想辦法嗎把這個我們我們原住民在地就業的部分也可以幫忙來解決這個環境的維護這樣我甚至在競選期間跑到信義鄉1010在看的時候我真的好希望那個林議長就是我們的環境志工每個月給他500塊到800或是1000塊的一個環境費用因為美林跟美林的距離都非常遠"},{"start":4944.739,"end":4945.159,"text":"委員 這個我們來列入考慮好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":4973.911,"end":5000.943,"text":"然後最近新竹武風鄉有跟我要求說看看能不能有一個固定式的那個激勢器因為很多人都到山上就丟棄垃圾那他們的環境部給我們的答案是說要用移動式可是移動式要有人力我們要的是固定式所以固定式的話就是不予補助那我想說讓部長來知道這個問題你可以想辦法逐年編列不一定要一次到位嘛你可以每年每年編啊"},{"start":5002.223,"end":5030.321,"text":"委員這個我請我們署長去現場勘查好不好OK好謝謝還有就是關於我們高空作業車現在你只有補助垃圾車跟資源回收車可是山上很多是樹枝他會打到那個電線然後造成停電就算沒有下雨也會停電那就是因為沒有這些高空作業車可是高空作業車他們問的時候就說不是環境不管的然後跟縣政府說縣政府沒有錢那到底是誰要來付這個高空作業車"},{"start":5031.764,"end":5050.637,"text":"如果他是這個縣道的話應該是縣政府啦因為這個是道路 這個我們環境部沒有相關這樣的用途環保局也沒有這樣的用途所以是縣政府縣政府或是說公路總局等等公路總局看那個路是什麼誰在主管的可是原住民的路常常不是縣道啊也不是常常是農路啊"},{"start":5051.835,"end":5080.077,"text":"所以我在想觀光作業在這個部分還是要去想辦法解決而不是一直互相推來推去現在卓西相關所田商長跟我要一個希望能夠找到一個資源就是我們找不到所以這個部分就很像就就反正就推來推去找不到一個相關單位可以對應最後一個就是我們關於原鄉發展的露營觀光現在最多是在南投跟苗栗那現在一般失業廢棄物處理就是說我們的那個"},{"start":5081.523,"end":5102.223,"text":"我們先講到那個垃圾垂帶徵收的部分目前是監食箱第一個就是48塊對一般民眾來講這48塊是非常實在是太高了能不能因為他他已經通過這個法律來代表會也公告所以我的意思是說是不是我們環境部可以幫忙這個錢至少50或者是45這樣"},{"start":5106.147,"end":5122.083,"text":"那個是我們的會計務協助處理會隨代徵收那現在的話他要徵收的對象的話是民眾所以的話有一個價錢在那邊那是不是容許就是說我們再去跟這個實際上去跟他訪問他的一個所謂的成本的估算那我們看看有沒有什麼可以協助的地方"},{"start":5122.763,"end":5145.075,"text":"對因為48塊確實太高太高了好不好然後那污水處理廠的部分就是我們常常都在水源地然後發展觀光他一定要水保可是這些費用還要叫我們原住民來自己出比如說埋設管線啊管路啊還有水土保持計畫書啊這些對原住民來說這是非常大的成本然後已經夠難合法化了結果呢這個法規一出來"},{"start":5149.757,"end":5178.528,"text":"只要觸犯這個法律就要罰300萬你說誰要開露營區包委其實這個開露營區它是一個營利行為那我自己也去路過幾個營那特別是靠山區那其實他們都做得很好啦那其實我也特別問了我們的司長其實那個花費沒有幾百萬啦幾十萬而已啦然後其實這個是一個因為你要營利當然要以永續為目的那你如果沒有處理好的話那當然這個遊客就不會想去了"},{"start":5178.928,"end":5201.005,"text":"所以這個我們還是鼓勵他們要自己去做三民還是跟我提出了這個建議希望說還是由中央來幫忙至少有一些補助啦因為我們現在你看嘛你要開一個錄音區已經要花很多錢了他又要再因為這個法規又要再偵測我們的污水處理廠沒有錯這個這些事情很重要可是費用非常的高昂對一般原住民來講是非常的高"},{"start":5201.872,"end":5205.034,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員早安我也希望可以請到部長"},{"start":5232.766,"end":5253.957,"text":"委員長早這個照片其實沒有什麼意思啦只是剛剛有聽到您說您跟經濟部也蠻常吵架的可是我知道部長上禮拜應該也都有聽到我在總諮詢還有國事論壇的發言其實我們對於醫院未來的節能減碳"},{"start":5254.497,"end":5254.537,"text":"總不能．"},{"start":5272.754,"end":5289.028,"text":"每個幾個月就做這樣子的要求嗎所以看起來我覺得您牽涉的業務真的很多部門是不是未來您會覺得在醫院的碳排碳盤查這方面您會覺得需要院長來主持有很多跨部門的合作"},{"start":5289.697,"end":5309.114,"text":"報告委員其實這個因為我的身負的這個要檢探的重任所以其實我們跟衛福部跟經濟部還有金管會我們這四個部的確是有一個密切的協調合作那我們大概在一兩個月就會提出一個方案針對醫療院所我們不是要他們做探盤查因為他們不是現在我們要列管的單位"},{"start":5309.554,"end":5337.588,"text":"但是我們會幫他們來做深度的節能幫醫院深度的節能醫院就可以減少開支但是這個經費需要有一點點的支持所以這個支持我們會想辦法用民間的資金來帶動我們正在想辦法對今天其實主要是為了我們的醫療院所來關心這個議題所以也希望部長可以多為我們檢查您剛講到的節能是不是就在您提到的範疇一跟範疇二之內因為這兩個只佔了碳排的三成"},{"start":5338.668,"end":5356.747,"text":"還有另外的範疇三是關於比如說他的醫材啊藥材還有最近您也吵起來的這個抗生素的問題以及病患還有這個員工他們通勤這個在範疇三您剛講的這個節能非常好因為醫院的能源齁"},{"start":5357.708,"end":5361.21,"text":"台灣的醫療部門的排放量在4.6%比全球平均的4.4還要高也被統計指出我們是主要的排放國顯然這個高於全球的平均可是您剛剛提到我覺得節能這件事情非常好"},{"start":5387.244,"end":5410.452,"text":"議員．"},{"start":5410.976,"end":5426.385,"text":"報告委員 範疇一二是最容易做的特別是如果醫院不是我們管制的話他不用那麼急著去做這種所謂的細節的碳盤查先減碳先減節電先節電節電或是省水這是最重要的那我們會跟他講過要輔導"},{"start":5427.366,"end":5451.443,"text":"那至於範疇三齁其實這個目前全世界都還在進行當中那我們的確是有在討論這個事情然後我們也在觀察日本日本有在做範疇三但是也才剛開始而已所以目前我們會提醒可以要怎麼做那我所知道的是衛福部他們也挖了一個在這個林明蘭副院長他在慈濟大林院也會到衛福部工作他未來就要做這類的工作"},{"start":5452.974,"end":5470.547,"text":"所以這張他有講到說您講的節電非常重要但是光是節電很多醫院已經嚇死了星光他是自己花自己的錢自掏腰包去請員工訓練永續的課程這永續的課程部長應該知道外面很貴"},{"start":5471.768,"end":5478.55,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":5491.653,"end":5518.307,"text":"心中有沒有什麼idea比如說更大的長根等等的其他醫院他們光是做範疇一跟二對他們自己的成本會花到多少的錢包委員像臺大的這個電費大概就花到兩三億那他其實最好的是他把冰水主機還有他的室內的照明還有空調整個做一個大更換那這個就要請專業人評估啦那我像我前兩天到這個能源展我就問他們他們的經驗大概也要花到幾億"},{"start":5519.988,"end":5543.761,"text":"這個幾億如果用ASCO的方式來進行的話醫院就不必花自己的錢但是必須說有一段時間他還是要花這個電費然後用這個轉換的方式讓保險公司的資金能夠帶進來所以目前是用這樣的方式因為這個目前如果要這麼大一筆錢深度節能靠政府的錢是無法補助的這個洞很大需要用民間的資金一起來做所以我們現在在準備做這個事情"},{"start":5545.001,"end":5567.713,"text":"對我也希望您可以宣導因為當天我有看到說這個電話事件您受訪說環境部已經有具體的方案那我也問了很多我的醫師界的朋友同學他們很多都被醫院指派現在到這個ESG檢探小組去上課所以他們一一都在培訓可是你的這個"},{"start":5569.154,"end":5598.369,"text":"具體方案大家沒有聽說大家沒有聽說甚至您剛告訴我的很多事情我好像也是第一次聽說知道說範疇一跟範疇二也許這個負擔的成本比較不用太擔心嘛對不對您的意思是這樣子就所以報委員因為這個這件事情是我們經濟部跟那個環境部扛起來然後我們找衛福部再找資金再做這是一個新的做法那當然啦我們也當然希望說衛福部可以出一點錢但是我覺得健保點出就很辛苦了"},{"start":5598.829,"end":5619.488,"text":"我們碳費也不會太高所以其實目前我們在從各方的這個資金來來尋求我知道您剛有講到說您的預算我我看了一下也只有9000萬嗎對沒有沒有應該都沒那麼的多我們是沒有辦法補助醫院做這個事的但是我們的一些概念或是說透過市場的機制的確是可以幫醫院的忙"},{"start":5620.849,"end":5637.743,"text":"對所以我們會負責私立的醫院那公部立的醫院呢經濟部會來協助所以我們有一個小組就來做這個事情對因為您具備的就是所有的永續人才都在您的旗下了嘛對對所以現在私立醫院他們會覺得很慌張因為他們很多是要自己去想辦法"},{"start":5639.465,"end":5664.458,"text":"通過這個委員的機會我也可以公開喊話說醫院不要著急跟著我們環境部走不要著急可是我們只有從報紙上看到你有具體方案你還沒端出來啊因為我還沒有場域可以說啦這個要把資金找到這需要一點點時間再給我們一兩個月大家真的不要急所以關於這個永續師啊等等這些課程你有考慮未來要做國家級的認證嗎"},{"start":5666.31,"end":5695.194,"text":"其實這個永續的功能跟目標我是覺得可以重新再思考啦因為這個是市面上的商業的行為啦那真的去做節能減碳其實它有專門的這個證照所以其實這個永續的定義它到底要做什麼用我們尊重市場的考慮但是其實我們政府也有環境部也有開一些班但是那個都很便宜但是我必須說也不見得一定要去完全上這個課其實你只要有心環境部提供各種的素材你都可以做得到"},{"start":5695.856,"end":5719.331,"text":"是對那至於醫院他們現在比較擔心的就是說你的這個具體方案我等一下會有個靈體我們會希望你可以列出這個時程比如說他們要在多久以前完成範疇一範疇二多久以前完成節能然後未來你的補助計畫減碳的補助這些他們需要初步有個概念否則他們很難做未來的成本推算跟預估"},{"start":5723.172,"end":5742.708,"text":"最後再問兩個比較簡短的問題這個您很熟悉啦,氣候專家2021年的時候曾經有200多個國家簽署了格拉斯哥氣候協議他們是明確的希望可以加速減少或是移除沒有效率的化石燃料的補貼"},{"start":5745.11,"end":5773.172,"text":"這當然是要請教部長您知道臺灣現在的這些補貼是持續的下降還是持續的上升按照現在我們希望不要電價漲持續的上升當中但是我必須說這個國際上都是一樣例如說像很多的國家這200多個簽名的國家其實這個也都在上升包委員這個都是一個倡議就是倡議嘛就是我們宣導什麼但是實際上作用是一回事國際上很多都這樣那這邊本席也是只是給你們"},{"start":5774.033,"end":5774.053,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":5803.792,"end":5807.955,"text":"謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長繼續我們請邱政軍委員質詢主席好我們有請我們彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":5831.295,"end":5846.754,"text":"邱委員早部長早我今天那天看了一下就是說今天碳費要拍板定案嘛我們今天要審議會嘛對不對對對對那您現在覺得是鬆了一口氣還是覺得壓力更大"},{"start":5847.715,"end":5864.614,"text":"其實我們都有準備好了請委員可以放心那目前因為上次委員質詢我說初期不要太高我也非常贊同所以先低後高所以要穩健上路這是最重要的我看到您的因為昨天工總有講到有當然有發出建言"},{"start":5866.075,"end":5888.023,"text":"當然他們說是碳費每公噸韓國的數字是200元那優惠費率大概6元那跟我們講優惠費率我們目前是你上次跟我講100好像差蠻多的那我今天當然也有看到一個我們的一個A方案就是每噸大概是30至35元這個部分有可能執行嗎?"},{"start":5889.303,"end":5914.214,"text":"現在他們正在開會所以我不知道我當然是希望說因為有一點差距就會有一點減碳的誘因所以目前我所看到他們上一次會議的結論大概就是這個的附近但是我必須說反正原則上就是不超過100元為目標對不對就是所謂的優惠費率但是我看這是初期那未來怎麼辦我看你們目標好像要調到1200元"},{"start":5916.015,"end":5936.415,"text":"這個是未來未來是多久以後報告委員那個是2030但是我跟委員報告因為我必須說這個碳費這種制度在臺灣推動起來就像是一個繳稅一樣對很多企業是覺得這是一個負擔我們也一直在跟溝通說如何去轉型"},{"start":5937.196,"end":5948.325,"text":"所以我未來會推動碳交易總量管制的碳交易因為從這個歐盟的經驗或很多國家經驗來看的話碳交易才可以創造市場我看到今年我們4月份調了這個電費"},{"start":5950.239,"end":5978.857,"text":"那央行也說了產業用電要漲12.7%產業生產成本會提高這個可能造成就是轉嫁到我們消費者身上為了穩定物價所以當時CPI上升0.27個百分點這個月產業用電又要再調整12.5%那你對全年的這個CPI間接的影響我們大概算是0.15個百分比那您覺得"},{"start":5981.378,"end":6002.086,"text":"這個狀況會不會一直持續下去?我們台電的部分會不會一直持續下去?我相信國際的這個電價其實會隨著這個政經地緣政治的關係如果戰爭能夠結束的話那當然就會有一點波動啦齁但是我必須跟委員報告我們目前我們電價的上漲的CPI的衝擊我們碳費比他的十分之一都不到"},{"start":6002.646,"end":6017.104,"text":"所以我們其實能夠影響...所以你們在科證都有把這個考量進去嗎?我們都有考量 CPI或GDP的影響那也跟委員報告其實我到歐盟去也問了他們說那你們CPI是多少他們說他們沒有在算這個的因為碳費跟電價這是兩件事"},{"start":6018.726,"end":6043.939,"text":"但是它一定是相關聯阿怎麼會兩件事勒?它絕對是一直影響下去可能說沒有直接影響我們減碳是一個全球的價值一個責任阿那電價是電價所以這兩個是應該是脫鉤的但是我們我必須說我也知道但是電價成本提高的時候它的東西這個轉嫁到名稱消費的時候它就是提高的阿這是一定會呈現出來的"},{"start":6044.859,"end":6067.859,"text":"但是因為我們面對減碳的責任是全世界一起動的我們也不能置身於事外對啦我也不是說不做這件事情啦那我只是希望說我們在做這些設定的時候一定要考慮到我們對這個整個CPI的影響好不好那我想我看了那個台塑他花了16年減碳的24%"},{"start":6070.521,"end":6093.446,"text":"按照你們定的優惠費率的標準,鋼鐵業要減碳25%,水泥業要減碳22%,其他行業減碳42%那我想問的是第一波收碳費的500家廠商在2026年可以用到優惠方案A的有多少家?我們是希望全部都要用"},{"start":6094.326,"end":6123.705,"text":"全部都要用我們希望我們希望因為我並不是說一筆錢給給國庫來做使用給環境部來做使用啦我希望都可以用我打個比方像我們進口水泥嘛這一年來為臺灣帶來300萬噸的這個碳排這個部分他要收碳費嗎目前是不用但是跟委員報告因為我們會開始來研議臺版的CBAN就是類似歐盟的碳邊境調整機制因為歐盟的專家歡迎我們臺灣所以這個就是我要講的"},{"start":6124.145,"end":6124.185,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":6140.998,"end":6141.018,"text":"好﹖"},{"start":6168.107,"end":6185.7,"text":"我再問一下我們現在徵收碳費到底是為了淨零碳排還是我們不會搶錢的一個為了淨零碳排我希望收得越低越好因為這很多錢到底怎麼用到時候收的錢怎麼用目前氣候變遷因應法裡面有訂出一些規則我舉例例如說氣候變遷的調適天災的調適這個費用"},{"start":6190.604,"end":6210.904,"text":"天災怎麼調適?你是調適什麼東西?例如說好假設這個苗栗越來越熱然後那我們很多的現在的農產品可能就沒有辦法在那個地方生殖了我們要來輔導農民做一些別的事情所以他的擴及的方面是很廣很廣很廣那什麼時候這個東西會出來?我們目前碳費最快收到是後年"},{"start":6211.545,"end":6213.808,"text":"但是我們會依據法令來解決,來處理。好,謝謝部長。那另外我再問一下"},{"start":6228.869,"end":6253.187,"text":"我不得不稱讚您一下就是說今天來做垃圾餐的專案報告昨天就發新聞了那可見部長真的很重視這一塊那也是真的想好好的處理這部分那我看到您從上任到現在我們山頭有慢慢減少了好像是這最近減少的市場嘛四桌山那當然這個部分我們也希望說"},{"start":6254.773,"end":6260.841,"text":"我們持續一下,但是您說多久要把這個我們現在的49 49場的這個垃圾山把它降下來?53年?就是到2026年的6月"},{"start":6271.994,"end":6290.664,"text":"因為我端午節做了宣誓啦所以也就是剩下3年你要大概一年要一年至少要幾週一年委員不能這樣算因為現在還在很多的在發包今年現在這幾個月比較慢不能用這種學歷來看我也謝謝你啦就苗栗的您也有同意補助了大概"},{"start":6291.865,"end":6292.245,"text":"整個計畫大概要1.6億元"},{"start":6307.361,"end":6321.876,"text":"但是目前我們資源循環署因為基金規模太小它每一案最高上限只有2500萬所以這個部分在執行上來絕對是有困難的沒有辦法推動部長可不可以答應我們這個部分給我們專案的協助"},{"start":6324.598,"end":6338.466,"text":"委員這個我們整體評估好不好我剛剛的簡報裡面有兩頁是我是希望推動台灣有一個全循環的這種所謂的支援循環園區阿如果這個可以搭配的好的話我覺得可以來考慮支援循環就是我們等於是一個大規模的"},{"start":6340.126,"end":6354.632,"text":"對對對我因為我認為不是每一件事情都是廢棄物應該都有他的存在的一個價值循環的價值當然啦當然你當然你如果把垃圾分類做得更好當然這個部分絕對對垃圾減量是有幫助的對那如果說有這樣的場地我們也希望說"},{"start":6355.672,"end":6379.58,"text":"由部裡面來推動因為真的是我們地方上常常碰到因為這是顯物設施嘛對當要推動的時候往往都會碰到一些困難明明就是對的事情搞到後面都不敢做所以我希望從中央開始然後來我們一起來努力好讓我們來達成我們垃圾減量好不好好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長那接下來我們請王育明委員執行"},{"start":6392.475,"end":6394.836,"text":"王委員早部長早部長首先本席要肯定你就是說你上任之後其實到全國各地實地去看了這一些垃圾的一個情況包括當時本席擔任召委也安排到嘉義縣的大林你也都親自出席了去查看"},{"start":6418.82,"end":6444.186,"text":"但是本席也是要講說這個垃圾處理其實挑戰非常的大當然不是只有部長的責任但是因為你今天來到了這個角色上面你就有這個你握有權力握有資源所以是要很認真的去處理那我看你今天的報告說在這個裸露的垃圾場裡面呢你們其實已經有把84噸降到了72萬噸那但是一個風災過後"},{"start":6448.727,"end":6477.611,"text":"這一次的山陀螺颱風你們有沒有統計過這一次山陀螺颱風所帶進來的這個製造的整體的垃圾量它破壞環境所產生的垃圾量大概有多少包委員因為那個風災離現在結束還不到一個禮拜我們通常是一個禮拜統計一次現在資料還沒有進來所以你們還沒有掌握好還沒有掌握到但是以這一次它對於南部的影響光是這個公共區域我們看到的這個應該垃圾量是增加不少所以你好不容易下降的這一些垃圾可能要瞬間"},{"start":6478.391,"end":6493.9,"text":"要暴增上來了那在這麼多的產生的垃圾呢這幾種有涉及到一個問題就是地方政府他平常可能沒有編列這樣的一個預算突然暴增的工作量這個是清潔業的工作量"},{"start":6494.46,"end":6522.852,"text":"所以風災水災過後這些垃圾清運的補助我看到你在報告裡面特別提到你有特別有一頁特別提到說各縣市垃圾清運恢復正常那各縣市經費需求屏東有164萬高雄市需要加班費基隆台東還在盤點是各縣市需求予以協助請問你這是一個常態性的機制還是這次颱風才有"},{"start":6524.012,"end":6548.46,"text":"委員這常態性的就是說遇到災害的時候地方有他的這個準備金應變的那如果不夠的話他會來跟我們申請那算是凱敏颱風的時候有補助嗎有我們金額是不是請我們署長來來署長是會跟大家講一下你們補助的標準是什麼還有你經費的來源是來自哪裡是我們的那個移緩季節還有我們的準備金都有那會預先"},{"start":6550.22,"end":6575.061,"text":"先撥到地方政府,像113年我們先撥了四千零五十幾萬到地方政府那後續如果不夠的話地方準備已經用完之後可以依實際的支出狀況來跟我們申請那你都會補到足嗎有一個分配的比例啦原則上我們盡量來做那會不會比較晚申請的就沒有也不會啦"},{"start":6575.641,"end":6597.143,"text":"會不會那六都會比較多其他縣市比較少不會不會不會不會不會不會好你們事後把那個標準給本席喔就是我報告委員那個那個標準就是依照他實際受害跟所以很彈性對不對對啊但是一定要核實如果沒有核實因為有我們後面的會計審計的制度會去看"},{"start":6597.697,"end":6617.836,"text":"所以彈性標準都在署長這邊,你們決定?就是依照實際的所以他如果報100萬就可以有100萬,報200萬會有200萬,也沒有啊?你的最高上限是多少?目前是沒有所謂最高上限的,但是所以你非常的彈性齁,這個我聽懂了,就是完全是市、地方"},{"start":6619.44,"end":6634.298,"text":"我知道,但是你說多了也沒有,你也沒有一個上限你也不知道你的補助標準是什麼我是覺得這個部分是有必要的但是呢,看起來你們其實是沒有一個統一的標準這個就是我接下來要講的現在其實我們看到颱風"},{"start":6635.699,"end":6662.081,"text":"這個垃圾清運像以高雄來講他4天放假結果那個場面很驚人就是清潔隊員喊說快滿了快滿了就是而且大排長龍所以這個有關於風災這個垃圾的清運標準你們現在有一個什麼樣的標準嗎還是都是授權地方政府如果連放4天4天都不收還是說他可以試這個風雨的大小比如說每天可能還是公告有一半因為就我所知像新北"},{"start":6662.481,"end":6686.801,"text":"他就有去公告我們今天就是一趟這樣子那這一趟大家可以把垃圾拿來所以就不會有這個垃圾山所以大家不會亂丟那目前有一個同意的做法嗎沒有因為這個垃圾處理是地方的事務那你們要督導嗎因為這一次可以看得出來你看四天都不收的情況民眾也困擾那那個清潔人員瞬間也是爆量其實也是蠻困擾的我建議這個部分這個"},{"start":6690.564,"end":6706.461,"text":"事實上你們現在已經升個環境部了不是什麼都是地方政府其實如果看到類似這樣的一個亂象因為這次風災那可以做的比較好的現實就可以他是怎麼做又兼顧到清潔人員的安全又兼顧到民眾的需求然後有一個好的公告就可以"},{"start":6706.781,"end":6731.09,"text":"不會像是這樣子大家擠成一團我是建議可以有這樣做好謝謝委員 這個我們來研議一下好不好好 謝謝那另外一個這次最辛苦的其實坦白講就是我們地方的清潔人員但是現在地方清潔人員的福利我覺得如果跟其他單位比起來其實都還是比較差的比如說像消防員來講消防員如果是死亡的慰問金他們一發就是10萬元"},{"start":6731.69,"end":6753.92,"text":"但是對清潔隊員來講他的工作過程如果是死亡的話就只有2萬元就是在福利上面其實還是有差異另外一個就是我們現在還是一國多製我們現在雖然定有清潔人員清潔獎金的知己的要點但是我想請問環境部現在有多少縣市真的有發清潔獎金發到1萬元都沒有"},{"start":6757.492,"end":6759.394,"text":"我印象裡面最低的應該是6000塊左右"},{"start":6780.27,"end":6797.241,"text":"6000塊左右所以這個是我看到我們其實蠻多辛苦的第一線的清潔人員他們也在講他們現在有點同工不同籌在不同的縣市去享受到的福利是不一樣的因為就像剛剛志王講的都授權地方政府那地方政府有財力好的有財力差的"},{"start":6799.582,"end":6815.642,"text":"所以就變成這個福利上面其實有落差這個部長你現在上任之後我不曉得之前有沒有關注到這個部分但是地方清潔人員坦白講他們在第一線盡心盡力幫環境部非常大的忙那這個部分我們中央可以幫他們做什麼"},{"start":6817.063,"end":6843.537,"text":"我們會來研究一下好不好就是說因為這個真的是屬於地方的事務這個我之前也問過我們的同仁怎麼樣來幫忙那這個給我們一點點時間好不好那我希望這個部長回去可以再研議一下就是說今天由原來的屬升格為現在其實是部其實應該要他的意義在那從一次的風戰我們都看到這些地方清潔人員真的是加倍辛苦"},{"start":6843.988,"end":6857.799,"text":"但是他可能就是地方縣市政府財力不一可以拿到的這個回饋或福利其實是不一樣的另外一個你們基本的執行植物死亡技術基金你們在114年還短處了308.3億那這個部分要怎麼處理這個是最基本的應該要編組的結果是短處的情況"},{"start":6867.326,"end":6895.019,"text":"跟委員報告齁我們目前大概還1億9千萬的基金拉阿那個依基金的姿勢來支那當然我們希望發生植栽的機率能夠繼續降雖然300多萬的這一個不足308億喔不是萬沒有沒有300多萬喔300多萬是不是喔抱歉那這筆基金如果依照目前的支出大概還可以用50年這個請委員放心"},{"start":6895.839,"end":6921.243,"text":"所以不會有不夠的情況嗎?因為這個時間的關係我覺得我們要把很多政策落實基層的照顧其實是非常重要那我希望對於這些基層的這些清潔人員他們現在福利保障不足的部分部長我希望你可以去正視這個問題而且他們訴求已經非常久了就是這種一國多製的情況"},{"start":6922.028,"end":6943.55,"text":"我希望未來這個環境部去爭取到更多的預算那由中央就是來抿平這樣的一個現實之間的落差所有的我們的清潔人員在第一線他做這麼辛苦的工作我想他們的福利保障待遇這個中央應該要出來幫他背書幫他幫忙好不好好我們研究一下謝謝好謝謝部長"},{"start":6948.693,"end":6949.253,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們的部長"},{"start":6975.151,"end":6994.997,"text":"委員好部長早部長大家都知道你以前是氣象專家對於氣象預報頗有心得我想請問對於這一次的山陀而颱風路徑真的很詭異在我們台灣真的非常的緩慢我們都在想說他到底是什麼時候進來滯留非常久然後讓我們緊繃了將近一週部長我想請問你認為對於這一次颱風的氣象預報是否有失準的疑慮"},{"start":6999.758,"end":7023.485,"text":"報告委員因為這不是我的工作職責所以我上任之後也謹守這個規範都沒有對外的一個發言不過我必須說因為氣象預報本身就是很困難這是颱風入境又很詭譎但是本來就要用這個監測取代這個預報所以如果我們回頭看這個數據的話其實我必須說我們的氣象工作人員有做到他該有的職責但是還有進步的空間"},{"start":7024.905,"end":7048.236,"text":"謝謝部長我想是面對這種越來越極端的氣候即便我們科技在怎麼發展或者是即便累積在怎麼多的經驗我想會遇到的狀況還很多我想尤其是這樣詭異的颱風和詭異的氣候我想也是大多數人的這個共識所以我想面對這樣的氣候我們應該是部長應該是不是也認同我們應該要料敵重演當然是要重演對嘛要重演嘛對"},{"start":7048.976,"end":7068.799,"text":"好但是呢某大公司的前董事長對於颱風架這件事情多有批評首先罵很多民眾說趁著颱風架出去吃喝玩樂逛百貨公司根本看不出必要那所謂颱風架根本是地方政府討好選民的政治操作再來又說放颱風架在他看來是缺乏韌性的表現"},{"start":7069.62,"end":7085.178,"text":"那部長你會覺得這個颱風架是政治新假期或是民眾缺乏韌性的爛草莓表現嗎?我曾經參與過很多地方政府的這個颱風架的放假的決定那目前我是認為是政治的其實是很低很低的"},{"start":7086.279,"end":7103.611,"text":"當然民眾總是希望多一點放鬆的機會這個是人情所以這個制度到底有沒有調整的空間我個人認為是可以有但是也請委員知道說我們台灣社會對於這個颱風架的看法已經非常的民粹了所以要改不是那麼容易做得到的事情"},{"start":7105.012,"end":7134.612,"text":"那好吧那我覺得你剛剛也說了就是颱風假有其必要性我想在極端的氣候之下我想即便放假後無風無雨我想即便是這樣子我覺得大家應該也是要慶幸說沒有發生太多的災害所以我覺得並不應該怪罪地方的首長或是民眾雖然說現在大家這個所謂想放颱風假的意願可能也有別的原因所以我想對於防災就是應該不會說要太過小心那放假的民眾也不能說他們就是任性不足"},{"start":7135.352,"end":7163.331,"text":"那最後一關有關這個颱風的問題其實去年中央氣象局改制升格為暑那組織法中也把氣候業務包含氣候變遷業務納入那我想這部分也是跨領域的包含環境、農業、交通等等的問題那其中我想局跟暑最大的差別是局是執行業務暑還可以擬定政策那去年在法規修訂的時候也有人提出說這個暑是不是應該要把它"},{"start":7164.271,"end":7193.306,"text":"氣象局應該要納入到環境部底下變成這個這樣子升格為屬請問部長怎麼看我想這樣調整會不會更名符其實這個委員因為這個很敏感我是氣象出身當環境部部長這個事情我是覺得可以讓大家來討論但是我們因為環境部有氣候變遷署我們比較做長期的他們是短期那短期可能是跟交通部的這個職長是比較相近的不過他們氣象人員"},{"start":7193.626,"end":7194.026,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝你的這個意見我想我大概也了解"},{"start":7223.674,"end":7246.72,"text":"總之也是一樣有關於氣候變遷等等的我想這個在跟環境部的業務也都有相關那這個的確是大家可以好好來討論的那再來就是我們垃圾山的問題回到今天討論垃圾山的問題那在今天環境部提供的報告裡面可以歸結出垃圾處理量能不足跟新增垃圾的太多應該是減少的兩個主要原因"},{"start":7251.221,"end":7266.414,"text":"若不從這兩個方面改善現在的垃圾山就只會越來越大也有人諷刺這是臺灣的新百月所以我也想請教部長其實也有媒體說最大問題是減少塑膠使用上也就是塑膠減塑的政策應該要更徹底的執行"},{"start":7267.435,"end":7281.443,"text":"又或者是說有業者用產業原料的名義進口這個國外的垃圾進來加工再加工那是不是可以應該要跟經濟部討論一下限制這個國外的垃圾進口部長對此怎麼看"},{"start":7282.703,"end":7307.321,"text":"國際垃圾是我們不會讓它進口到臺灣做SRF的所以這個請委員可以放心那至於說源頭減量這是最重要的工作其實我們環境部其實有編列這個我們有一個資源回收基金大概有80億其實就在做這個事情所以其實我們的源頭減量的預算比末端處理的還要多很多部長我想這裡用產業原料它不一定是做SRF吧它可能會進來加工成其他的東西會不會有這樣的狀況"},{"start":7308.729,"end":7326.61,"text":"我必須跟委員報告,其實某方面齁,任何的東西都不應該把它變成垃圾啦。的確,例如說我舉例,台積電也要進口一些礦石細元,礦石進來,稀有礦土進來,把它變成晶圓,這樣做循環的一個處理啊。那你它也,你某方面在那個地方可能是垃圾啊,到這個地方變黃金啊。"},{"start":7327.671,"end":7347.643,"text":"所以其實這個部分呢民眾關心的是不是有國際垃圾這個我們會努力的來監控也希望各位很多的民眾要是有疑慮的話都歡迎告訴我們有沒有這種進口垃圾的問題是那可不可以請部長之後把這個相關的資料和報告可以在一個月或兩個月內交給本席好不好那兩個月好了"},{"start":7350.362,"end":7365.038,"text":"檢索政策從這個源頭管理這個垃圾產生喔那部長有沒有發現其實每次這樣推廣的政策都會有民怨產生喔那實際上也會將這個店家產生無形的負擔那國外反而也有越來越用越多的情形喔顯見說檢索政策"},{"start":7366.559,"end":7385.164,"text":"不是說檢縮政策不好或是不應該做而是有沒有更好或更便利的方式至於進口塑料進口的這種廢塑料的部分也要有所限制那畢竟其實經濟效應也有限但是對我們台灣的環境負擔是蠻大的那剛剛就是說這個部分要麻煩您盤點一下到時候再提供給我"},{"start":7386.204,"end":7414.227,"text":"那部長今天簡報中有提到說112年戰制的裸露垃圾掩埋場共53場那累計84萬噸那至今年的8月為止已經降到49場72萬噸可是你們現在用的是所謂的這個掩埋覆土跟分泉打包的兩種方式處理這並不是完全的去化而且是而是將這個裸露垃圾做到暫時處置的基本要求而已那我想要請教部長"},{"start":7415.927,"end":7436.701,"text":"84萬噸的垃圾何時可以完全去化?是否為民國136年?因為我看到好像有人這樣的說法目前我們設定是3年等於是126年完全去化84萬噸變成是妥善處理完妥善處理就像我剛說的就是那兩種方式對但是我說這並非完全去化那你覺得84萬噸的"},{"start":7438.542,"end":7439.983,"text":"但是我就說那怎麼樣可以把這84萬噸都放到這個循環裡面"},{"start":7456.171,"end":7479.618,"text":"這個要花一點時間我特別我的簡報最後面提到一個新的想法是說我們應該有一個好的資源循環園區能夠全循環的來做這個事情是這個部分等一下我想因為目前您這個有點像是政策方向很多具體規劃和細節應該都沒有還沒有正在我們有這個想法對目前是想法而已所以還有很多具體要爭取預算未來可能要再細節來問一下部長"},{"start":7481.058,"end":7503.186,"text":"那我另外是想問說目前裸露的垃圾山還有很大的問題是火災嘛那我就是上網隨便查了一下其實大概某一個垃圾野埋場過去5年就發生71次火災那我想這個除了現在建制監控之外有沒有辦法在每個垃圾場設置這種移動式的水塔能夠快速撲滅垃圾山的火災"},{"start":7503.994,"end":7524.233,"text":"有報委員這個高風險的這個掩埋場其實都有這樣的這個措施不過我也跟委員報告其實我到很多國外的垃圾山掩埋場或是垃圾處理設備他們也都常常發生火災因為我們的民眾的回收包含我們的手機亂丟電池亂丟現在這種鋰電池都很容易造成火災這個我們還是要從源頭做起啦"},{"start":7525.314,"end":7544.913,"text":"對那我意思是說那現在還有更具體的處理的方法嗎目前說真的有時候民眾自己把自己丟到那邊我們去做分類這個成本會非常高我們還是要從民眾的呼籲在進行所以我剛剛意思是說所以你不是每一個垃圾你只是把分類說高風險的對高風險的那沒有不是高風險的呢會不會有可能會發生對"},{"start":7546.354,"end":7564.645,"text":"我就是基本上有高風險的大概都有消防的這個設備那我們會逐步的有需要的我們就會來進行目前應該是沒有全面的都有裝沒有全面沒有全面對不過我們在這個未來3年會投入12億來處理這件事所以這件事情未來也會去執行好那這部分再拜託部長謝謝"},{"start":7566.086,"end":7587.56,"text":"最後我還是想要問,所以再重新回到剛剛的問題,因為你剛剛說3年內要解決垃圾事案問題,那我還是想要問說,所以依照部長的定義,其實好像就是目前的這兩種方案而已對不對?對對好,那你目前上任半年了,你自己評估有辦法達到這樣子的承諾嗎?可以,因為現在我們已經全面在發報在進行了,應該可以達到3年內可以達到"},{"start":7588.561,"end":7588.941,"text":"謝謝主席,我請部長"},{"start":7618.055,"end":7622.429,"text":"好請部長欸所有人招"},{"start":7623.356,"end":7651.573,"text":"部長你剛剛回答陳昭之還有陳新輝委員就說公家醫院的節能檢探是由經濟部負責我們分工啦分工啦財團法人醫院跟社團法人醫院跟私人醫院由你負責對對對那你宣示的你說跟著你走就沒問題對對對你在這邊宣示一下對在這邊宣示一下我讓你用30秒宣示"},{"start":7652.634,"end":7680.549,"text":"就是說我們現在深度捷能正在規劃當中那我們有分百工百業那目前針對醫療的院所這個所謂公立醫院、部立醫院的那會由經濟部來做協助那我們所謂的私立醫院的話會由環境部這邊我們大概會找了exco團隊深度捷能會來幫助這種所謂的財團法人這種私立的民間的醫院來進行好那如果跟著你走就不會扣錢了齁"},{"start":7681.852,"end":7682.972,"text":"剛剛從早上到現在我都常常聽你說"},{"start":7711.218,"end":7730.799,"text":"那垃圾,風災的垃圾有人講到這個清潔員非常的辛苦,會很獎金那天花板是一萬塊,那各縣市有的發五千,六千是最少嘛那你為什麼不把那個天花板提到五萬或十萬呢"},{"start":7733.081,"end":7756.871,"text":"颱風來真的是很危險而且是蠻辛苦的所以像是萬丹 萬阿來 淹水淹到1.8米 將近2米那根本整個碰城 家具裝潑都拖拖拖 這就是當時那村長就跟相公所就槓起來了"},{"start":7757.671,"end":7769.144,"text":"那要另外收回這個第一個收回合不合理第二個如果地方在這邊學怕電環境部會不會主動介入這兩個問題我請署長來"},{"start":7777.285,"end":7788.191,"text":"是這樣子那個垃圾清雲原則上如果是家戶垃圾在鄉鎮市公所在清雲應該是沒有收費他這個個案到底怎麼回事我們再去了解"},{"start":7789.724,"end":7817.206,"text":"因為那個時候我有幫忙處理就看到就在那邊對幹那我就想說這環境部隊就出手一下就很簡單啊所以了解一下跟我回報一下好我們來了解一下好不好那那個獎金啊獎金你剛剛沒有回答獎金你說天花板是一萬塊有些好的財務狀況好的縣市一萬塊啦那是你們發的還是縣市政府啊這個清潔隊員都是縣市政府那你給他訂天花板幹嘛"},{"start":7818.792,"end":7841.544,"text":"人家要花五萬十萬有關你屁事啊市長這個是召集一個縣市一起來開會所做的一個決定以上報告我是覺得獎金去訂天花板沒有意義啦人家如果想發而且很辛苦那財務狀況要OK的話"},{"start":7844.935,"end":7866.014,"text":"這關起床嘛這關起床因為新界隊員太辛苦了那來再請教部長我們上次小琉球那個小琉球的問題文化爐的問題還有有沒有碰到什麼問題另外一個所有的離島的垃圾都運回本島那這次颱風這樣會不會產生一些親印上的問題來"},{"start":7868.136,"end":7895.439,"text":"小琉球的問題是說我們因為它的建分化廠的話它的這個成本實在太高了所以我們還是用轉運的方式為本島的燃燒目前的其實小琉球其實我必須說也給那個他們鄉長做的也是很認真很不錯我們給予很大的一個肯定那未來我們還是會持續它進行這種轉運的工作不過其實小琉球其實未來或許有一些改變的方式例如說去旅遊也應該把垃圾自己帶回來"},{"start":7896.159,"end":7919.511,"text":"從源頭的減量每個人減量這種習慣開始做這是最有用的所以我們會努力啦因為小琉球那邊他們環保杯我看推的也還不錯啦對沒錯reuse嘛然後垃圾減量也要還是分類也要更落實啦那鄉長是蠻認真的我們要跟他加油鼓勵那其他外島這次颱風這樣垃圾運回來有沒有問題啊"},{"start":7923.144,"end":7938.312,"text":"目前是沒有問題沒有問題那你補助地方政府機構的機具設備跟藥品那藥品是什麼東西啊例如說一些消毒消毒的燈閣熱門那我們"},{"start":7946.584,"end":7975.553,"text":"那個垃圾的裸露垃圾是屏東縣還是第二名的對那有沒有辦法來幫忙他們沒有問題來我們請署長來跟召委報告齁屏東縣我們有去跟他開過會也見過他的縣長齁那他這些裸露的垃圾他也是依照我們所規劃的三年的方式會把它做處理以上也是要在三年把它清除完畢對"},{"start":7978.969,"end":7987.759,"text":"我們屏東縣的破帶稽查是排第9支援回收排第6這個要怎麼來幫忙他們"},{"start":7989.3,"end":8016.33,"text":"這個其實因為需要這個各鄉政公所的清潔隊他們努力的從源頭都來做然後從焚化爐進場的時候收這個垃圾的時候也都要迫代來看所以這個要從好幾個關卡但是我也必須說要做到像彰化這麼好這個挑戰很大希望委員可以做大力的支持等於是鼓勵這個觀念因為他們垃圾就少了三分之一所以這是成效非常好的"},{"start":8017.301,"end":8018.241,"text":"我們請副署長不再提供"},{"start":8046.829,"end":8074.509,"text":"那你們這個官網搞了那麼久結果每天上網觀看的人都不到100個人97個96個那你應該把他連到旅館去民宿業者去對不對讓他們強制他們看嘛因為在1月1號開始就不會供應啦這個是很嚴重的問題以後要去住宿都要自己帶東西所以這個是不是能夠趕快給他突破"},{"start":8075.56,"end":8088.85,"text":"委員這個其實我們那個有辦活動新聞也都很大我們有公開的宣示啦其實大家都知道啦但是這個要有決心做然後也要讓每個去住宿的人也都有這個提認因為我們到歐洲去這個都沒有嘛"},{"start":8090.951,"end":8112.38,"text":"好最後一個問題我一定準時結束啦好的老師一定準時下課山陀河這個颱風造成屏東很厲害很厲害瞬間中風16級那整個國小的太陽能板都掉了亂七八糟這些太陽能板的回收部長有沒有什麼觀念有沒有什麼汙染"},{"start":8113.67,"end":8134.162,"text":"目前的狀況是沒有直接的污染但是我相信它如果到農田的時候還是會有些影響那目前我們是環境部是主管是說這個光電板的回收處理在利用所以這個我們是我們加強的但是會不會對環境衝擊我們在做評估因為這一次是第一次這麼大針對太陽光電板我們會密切注意"},{"start":8134.682,"end":8155.617,"text":"至於說對環境的破壞例如說會不會溫度過高環境的破壞其實我們現在有一些會議要求能源署能夠來做政策性的環評來評估這個事情因為大家對太陽能板很疑慮怎麼回收很疑慮所以找時間來到辦公室來大家討論討論好沒問題謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢我們現在休息"},{"start":8170.879,"end":8175.066,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8805.202,"end":8819.148,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。我們請王振旭委員執行。好,謝謝主席。那我們就麻煩馮部長。部長好。"},{"start":8826.004,"end":8836.002,"text":"辛苦了,我們利用假日還跑去基隆協助瞭解讓地造成的影響,非常感謝副部長那麼關心基隆受災的狀況。"},{"start":8837.93,"end":8857.412,"text":"我想我們一開始還是針對於即使剛剛所有的委員都有請教你相關的問題那今天你在簡報也講得非常清楚有關於在未來如何針對於相關不管廢棄物源頭減量或者是循環經濟的部分都做了非常充分的說明"},{"start":8858.533,"end":8881.193,"text":"一開始還是先請教一下剛剛我們這個召委書委員有提到碳費對於醫療產業的影響那這部分我們也知道這個期程都已經定得非常的清楚那那時候部長也有提到再往下我們會看到就是說您也正式剛剛也再一次的重申就是不會向醫療"},{"start":8882.974,"end":8894.848,"text":"會員所徵收探會。這個是看起來是非常確定的事情不過整體來講醫療本身並不是只有醫療機構而已還會包括"},{"start":8896.38,"end":8901.385,"text":"報告委員其實我們現在對於醫療院所因為我們大概都有掌握它的用電量大概是多少所以其實我們未來會抓大放小針對這種大型"},{"start":8919.801,"end":8919.841,"text":"一致來來"},{"start":8944.026,"end":8965.159,"text":"進行盤點,這個不是攤盤查是幫你減電節能用ASCO的形式另外一個就是說我們會又動用民間的資金來進行但是我也跟委員報告公立醫院的部分比較難因為它預算編法的問題那私立的醫院可能會走得比較快所以我們民間的醫院會優先來做處理那這個是環境部來負責的"},{"start":8966.019,"end":8995.299,"text":"是,那我們了解其實醫院都會接受醫院評鑑在評鑑的過程裡面未來這會不會是一個可以提供什麼樣的誘因或者是方式來讓我們的醫療院所針對這個檢探的部分節能的部分有一個加分或相關的議題讓醫院在遵循的時候更有誘因或者是有什麼樣的外力可以來協助我們醫療院所面對未來整體的這個檢探的需求再多"},{"start":9000.003,"end":9018.68,"text":"再過來就是有關於這個廢棄物源頭減量還有資源循環的部分我相信大家都已經聽了部長很多很多的相關的報告那很感謝部長也在上上禮拜五參出席的這個縱土的包場的活動現場我們可以看到包括我們的"},{"start":9019.701,"end":9021.342,"text":"臺灣的土地真的需要大家共同來維護有健康的土地就有健康的國民當然"},{"start":9035.31,"end":9057.603,"text":"未來我們就在打造健康台灣就會奠定一個良好的基石其實這裡面廢棄物造成的土地污染真的是會讓我們很擔心那也很期待大家共同來維護台灣這塊美麗的土地那我們可以看下一張知道說未來在這個廢棄物的部分這幾年好像還是"},{"start":9058.9,"end":9081.372,"text":"實施的在增加當中那這個增加裡面我們也了解未來你有很大的目標就是要將一般的廢棄物佔存量可以在三年裡面讓它消失掉那因為再次提到就是焚化廠如果我們國民或者是人民對於焚化廠或者是整個整體反應的這些"},{"start":9083.915,"end":9086.576,"text":"這一部分可不可以再進一步說明?"},{"start":9108.968,"end":9130.525,"text":"報告委員因為這個我來之後知道政府預算的編列有一定的期程所以其實在明年的預算其實對於這塊還是跟過去是類似的但是我們的確我在爭取後年的預算裡面我們正在盤點當中那我希望有一個更積極的方式來進行所以我們正在進行當中所以希望後年有那其他的部分我們也會爭取這個"},{"start":9131.766,"end":9139.671,"text":"我們希望用別的方式來解決這個循環經濟的問題因為循環經濟在台灣我們談了很多但是實際上有沒有做出成效我相信大家心裡都有數所以我們希望用別的方法能夠來推動"},{"start":9151.639,"end":9168.967,"text":"是當然我們很期待這個總預算的這些審查能夠趕快的開始那我們可以看下一張有關於這個災後垃圾處理的部分那剛剛蘇慧雲也提到光電這些造成了影響環境的影響那我們想要了解的就是"},{"start":9170.788,"end":9196.541,"text":"目前我們有一個辦法就是現有的大型文化場統一調度辦法裡面如果針對於這種垃圾在短時間裡面大量出現的話那如何透過地方政府跟中央這邊共同來處理我們很希望過去其實有類似的事件出現的話那有沒有類似的經驗可以提供這一次出現這麼大的影響之下"},{"start":9197.661,"end":9224.253,"text":"可以做參考的部分那我們去了解好像之前很少有這樣的經驗是地方政府覺得他們可以自行處理的非常完整不需要中央來協助調度或者是說有曾經類似的需求而沒有做適當的回應那我們所了解好像沒有這樣的案件那像這一次這麼大的這些風災造成影響部長這邊還有沒有其他可以因應的部分"},{"start":9224.833,"end":9244.58,"text":"報告委員您剛才提到的問題就是說像之前那個調度權其實它不是一個常態目前為止其實過去南投有申請過但是南投其實它還有一些掩埋的空間所以我們沒有同意但是我們其實這個事情也要很小心因為我們也害怕說地方過度依賴中央來靠這樣來做調度"},{"start":9246.001,"end":9264.458,"text":"我們非常謹慎小心來做這個事情那目前我們大概都是透過績效考核跟補助的機制讓地方協調地方政府之間能夠來處理垃圾的問題所以現在大概是一年大概26到37萬噸在進行這樣的調度的工作我們是另外一個方式不是強制的去協調介入調度"},{"start":9265.359,"end":9280.374,"text":"是所以如果地方政府有需要的話那中央這邊就擇物旁貸會去做協調但是不是說我們呃直接行使這個調度權了解好謝謝那再過來一些呃我們看到的部分就已經"},{"start":9281.235,"end":9307.919,"text":"很多委員都詢問過那我只請教一下針對於颱風以後這個登革熱的防治這邊環境部有沒有更積極的措施跟我們的衛福部這邊來做協助跟協調我們跟衛福部分工是我們是在環境的這個清理跟整潔所以目前因為例如說北部雙北的登革熱有第2期時期了所以我們會加強這個跟地方環保局加強這個清消的工作"},{"start":9308.599,"end":9316.866,"text":"是 好 那我們期待大家共同努力 來減少這個災害以後造成的影響謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 謝謝部長繼續我們請楊耀委員質詢謝謝主席 主席請一下彭部長部長請"},{"start":9337.111,"end":9355.077,"text":"姚委員好部長好部長我看你們的簡報就是臺灣因為從大概106年開始有24座焚化廠進入整改的過渡期每年大概有"},{"start":9357.238,"end":9383.223,"text":"有十幾萬噸的垃圾必須要進入垃圾掩埋場到了去年底呢裸露堆置量是84萬噸我先問一個前提是在掩埋場裡面的量還是掩埋場以外的地面的量"},{"start":9383.943,"end":9409.52,"text":"在掩埋場裡面的量所以這84萬噸就不包括像澎湖那一種紅蘿那一種直接在地面上的就是澎湖的也算進去澎湖的大概是可是那個在我在概念上我不覺得那個是在掩埋場裡面阿對他是在掩埋場的地面阿對那個紅蘿就是掩埋場所以他那個就是算我知道可是他"},{"start":9410.646,"end":9421.931,"text":"我們一般掩埋場是在地面下的才叫掩埋場嘛他是直接堆置在地面上的部長懂我的意思嗎有有"},{"start":9424.034,"end":9449.649,"text":"其實委員那個我看過很多的那個掩埋場其實很多也是這樣也有在平面的也有在山裡面的也都有各式各樣的都有那在概念上是不是應該這樣子區分就是假如在掩埋場裡面我不是說在場區裡面喔我是在真的掩埋場我們掩埋場的概念是在地底下的嘛"},{"start":9452.065,"end":9479.13,"text":"對不對,地面的不叫掩埋啊,叫堆置啊。署長說明沒關係?是是,謝謝委員,澎湖的紅蘿掩埋場,掩埋區它比較特殊,它...不是我現在不是只針對紅蘿來問啦,紅蘿那個就是我的概念是絕對不算是在掩埋場裡面啦,我現在是說台灣其他的垃圾堆置是多數是"},{"start":9479.966,"end":9503.747,"text":"你們現在所謂的因為我覺得裸露堆置的量是84萬噸這個到底多少是在地面下地面下的其實我的概念上也算是垃圾處理的一部分嘛所以我們概念上這個是垃圾處理的一部分嘛那假如說是在地面上的才叫裸露的堆置嘛"},{"start":9505.268,"end":9534.394,"text":"所以這84萬噸是裸露堆置的就是裸露就是外界媒體說的垃圾山啦對啦就是沒有處理好的啦對啦啊處理好如果把它復土掩埋或是打包的那個就不叫垃圾山對啦對啦就是那表示情況還蠻嚴重的啦其實我們從立法院的預算中心的報告看得出來就臺灣其實現在垃圾掩埋場"},{"start":9535.865,"end":9562.926,"text":"就地面下的容量其實已經快到上限了那其中有17處是已經完全飽和掩埋腹土措施目前這一些垃圾山以外我們到底還有多少垃圾掩埋場有多少"},{"start":9566.765,"end":9592.735,"text":"我們現在其實野埋場大概107座如果我們算了一下大概有354萬立方公尺我們現在這個是用立方公尺來算不是用垃圾的實際重量的噸來看所以還有空間但是我們不希望再增加可是還有空間我們現在就是這84萬多我們也不能直接讓他進入野埋場因為你不保留一定的量"},{"start":9593.655,"end":9622.496,"text":"以後萬一緊急使用怎麼辦部長你懂我的意思嗎我知道我知道我其實今天這一段這一段跟部長討論的就是我們希望希望目前的垃圾山的處理盡可能的朝分選打包來做政策方向對不對對對目前是這樣還有一個就是把它復土先復土"},{"start":9623.004,"end":9638.32,"text":"就是地面復土那個還是必須要做第二次的處理不可能說地面下就是垃圾掩埋"},{"start":9639.161,"end":9639.301,"text":"目前目前"},{"start":9671.11,"end":9693.67,"text":"好像就我們分析打包的最終目的是製成固體再生燃料對不對不一定不一定有的是這樣做阿有的是做像太空包這樣先放好就是暫時打包的不算就是說我們有一個政策是要把它做成"},{"start":9694.957,"end":9695.137,"text":"那這個的進度"},{"start":9710.291,"end":9729.308,"text":"這個的進度跟成果好嗎?目前有的縣市很積極在做啦有些縣市他覺得他的焚化爐就做魚魚用就可以了那有些縣市做什麼用就可以了燃燒就可以了燃燒就可以可是問題是現在不夠焚化廠的量能不夠啊"},{"start":9729.668,"end":9753.003,"text":"其實我們報告委員因為我們前幾個禮拜有公布SRF的體檢報告啦那其實我們也都跟各縣市環保局有溝通其實他們大概都有這個需求也大概都體認SRF是一個必須要進行的方式但是他的管理不夠嚴格我們這個也都知道我們會加嚴的來處理對這個就是就是就是就我這邊看審計部的報告齁就是欸"},{"start":9757.941,"end":9762.927,"text":"分選打包以後的量有九成"},{"start":9764.804,"end":9787.994,"text":"有超過九成喔,超過九成並沒有製成SRF目前SRF大概佔所有的裡面大概一年大概30萬噸產量30萬噸,產量多少我不知道,我這邊的資料是審計報告因為我們垃圾量大概一年大概900多就是說能夠處理的其實大概不到一成啦"},{"start":9788.114,"end":9789.677,"text":"所以可能部裡面這邊對於SRF的"},{"start":9799.967,"end":9828.662,"text":"對環境衛生及公安的風險這個要做很仔細的評估然後要做政策的宣導因為我們有先做體檢然後年底會有一個管理辦法還有一些整個白皮書會出來因為SRF不應該說直接說它是燒垃圾它是一個支援的有效的再利用所以這個部分我們的確是往那個方向走但是我必須強調我並不是要鼓勵SRF但是這個是一個必要的手段"},{"start":9832.203,"end":9855.668,"text":"這個我可能要部長說明一下為什麼我們的政策是要補助SRF可是你現在說SRF其實是說它是可以把轉廢為能的一種方法是一種方法然後因為它可以取代燃煤所以基本上如果它好的話是可以取代燃煤可以來做這樣的使用"},{"start":9856.764,"end":9878.06,"text":"所以其實這個是可以做的但是我必須跟委員報告因為過去可能管理辦法很不好很出了一些狀況那我們也體認到體檢完了我們會走向正面的角度來看這個事情會更嚴格所以部長我就是讓你把話說清楚啦要不然會有"},{"start":9880.342,"end":9902.612,"text":"會有誤導就是說我們明明就是補助的地方政府要去做SRF然後現在部長說部長的意思就是說我們要精進SRF的各項程序生產製程生食用全部用最嚴格的標準來看待"},{"start":9903.632,"end":9928.121,"text":"那必須要這樣子講要不然部長假如只是單純的說說不是很支持那我們政策又這樣子走這個會有很大的衝突好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝梁委員謝謝部長在這邊宣告在黃秀芳委員花園完畢後我們處理臨時提案那接續我們請洪森漢委員質詢"},{"start":9939.461,"end":9959.815,"text":"主席好 請環部長 嗨 環部長 翁委員早 部長好齁 部長你還記不記得我們7月的時候 那時候我們一起去萬華 那體驗這個 自收拾荒者 他的生活跟工作 你還記得嗎 對 記得 感受很深刻 部長這段時間在當然"},{"start":9962.536,"end":9989.985,"text":"我們到萬華體驗實荒後其實當然我要先謝謝部長跟這邊循環署的同仁其實在這段時間也花了很多心力在精進來協助實荒者的這個支收關懷計畫但在這裡我有幾個部分想要跟部長有一些提醒跟提問部長我想請問你知不知道現在全台灣有多少位實荒者大概一萬八千多列冊的但是我事實上還是更多比這個更多很多"},{"start":9991.089,"end":10007.186,"text":"目前列冊的數字是7500位不是1萬多列冊列冊的是7500位所以部長你也知道實際上面數字應該比這個多很多那部長你知不知道臺北市目前有多少位死亡者200多位"},{"start":10008.513,"end":10012.816,"text":"臺北市政府現在列冊只列冊兩位整個萬華就兩位拾荒者"},{"start":10035.913,"end":10043.61,"text":"部長你覺得這個數字精準嗎?完全不精準所以我們會來調查啦會來等於是說等於是在檢視這個制度"},{"start":10045.489,"end":10070.197,"text":"不然我在看各縣市的列冊裡面 譬如說台中市列了1400過去兩年甚至2000、1400那我們了解一下當然這是因為台中市過去其實還蠻積極在輔導這些實荒者所以讓實荒者很願意參與這個列冊所以各縣市的做法不同會造成列冊數字上面天差地遠的狀況"},{"start":10071.465,"end":10096.864,"text":"那這就是現在我們看到一些現實尤其是像臺北市自收個體戶列車遇到的問題喔臺北市現在怎麼做呢臺北市只列這所謂的好寶寶拾荒者喔也就是你家戶門口都要很乾淨啦你才能被列上去那真正有需求有被幫助需求的拾荒者他可能因為資源不足或空間不足所以他可能環境髒亂在臺北市的邏輯裡面就沒有辦法被列車喔所以才會只有兩位啊"},{"start":10097.504,"end":10116.021,"text":"整個萬華只有兩位可是部長你知不知道如果現在這些自收拾荒者沒有被列冊的話他就沒有辦法參與自收關懷計畫也就是我們在環境部跟我們的這個資源循環所花了很多力去嚴以精進的自收關懷計畫這個美意如果只要不列冊進來就沒辦法得到幫助啊部長你覺得這該怎麼辦"},{"start":10121.978,"end":10137.153,"text":"這個我們會來檢討一下再跟委員報告好不好不然我覺得你應該積極的要來跟這些縣市政府因為我覺得到底他們是不想做還是沒有能力做我覺得要弄清楚如果我們的政策資源是規劃在列車作為前提的話"},{"start":10137.847,"end":10164.439,"text":"那以他們現在這種態度就會變成是我們去幫助第一線死亡者的時候很大的阻礙這些縣市政府就變成阻礙我覺得部長環境部應該要積極跟這些縣市政府來做這些溝通可以嗎好可以就是怎麼讓列冊的數字更符合真實讓能夠需要幫助的人能夠得到幫助我覺得這是最重要的前提接下來我要跟部長也再討論一下關於支收支收行動回收行動支收站的問題喔"},{"start":10165.399,"end":10173.446,"text":"部長你知道我們現在資源循環署也規劃了所謂行動之收站你知道這個計畫它的脈絡跟原因為什麼會有這個計畫"},{"start":10175.394,"end":10196.575,"text":"因為那時候大概從108年那時候就開始推動這個計畫啦齁但是而且其實那時候我知道說被趕來趕去所以才有這種行動的這個做法我跟你講其實一個很重要的原因是因為也是大概在兩年兩三年前萬華的光耀武金行的回收站當時在社會上面因為他因為台北市的土地法規的問題被迫關門"},{"start":10198.377,"end":10222.561,"text":"所以讓萬華大概有200多位的死亡者沒有地方可以去回收來維生這件事情也促使環境部推出了這個所謂行動之收站的計劃但是呢我們當我們的這個提出這個計劃以後中央提出計劃以後很多縣市拿了相關中央的預算跟補助來推動實際執行的狀況部長了不了解"},{"start":10223.554,"end":10247.211,"text":"報告委員 這個我還不了解好部長我跟你說有些縣市呢他會用這個縣市清潔隊來安排路線那沿街去收獵測拾荒者的回收物有些縣市他跟地方政府合作讓回收站的貨車到定點來讓拾荒者來收回收物然後再來補貼他的油錢我也要問部長你知道臺北市的行動支收站他怎麼做"},{"start":10251.771,"end":10254.303,"text":"他搞了一台漂漂亮亮的小胖卡"},{"start":10255.56,"end":10284.058,"text":"然後說他只收集農藥空瓶啊收集嬰兒用品啊收集高壓容器啊然後他拿但他拿了環境部的拿環境部補助的錢啊但搞了一台這個東西啊你覺得這一台東西這是自收者他需要的嗎尤其是在台北市的土地法規上面讓很多的環回收站一一的都要消失以後回收自收這個我們的死亡者"},{"start":10284.557,"end":10301.671,"text":"找不到空間去回收站的時候結果你搞了這台東西這真的能夠符合需求嗎部長你看這個完全不行所以我會來檢討好不好所以我們看到這狀況第一個是說當然中央現在規劃了政策可是在地方的執行端一來他的死亡者沒有列冊"},{"start":10302.512,"end":10323.922,"text":"二來他說拿了中央的錢以後搞一個這樣看起來華而不實的虛晃一招的東西根本沒有辦法解決問題讓他地方的拾荒者一樣沒有回收站可以去做回收一樣得不到我們政府的幫助可是我們明明這個政策的規劃一開始的原意是因為臺北市的萬華回收場"},{"start":10326.624,"end":10342.137,"text":"我們希望環境部要積極地來跟各縣市來溝通我們這幾個政策要怎麼真的能夠在地方落實尤其是台北市現在看起來台北市資源最多"},{"start":10343.158,"end":10358.913,"text":"可是他做的狀況最華而不實最虛晃一招現在台北市我覺得部長要優先來跟台北市來做這部分的溝通包括要求他們提出改進的辦法這部長可以嗎可以沒問題我覺得這涉及到公正轉型的問題我知道部長很重視公正轉型的問題"},{"start":10359.634,"end":10381.782,"text":"但如果我們在現在在推動資源循環推動氣候變遷在推動淨零的政策的時候沒有辦法顧到每一個可能會受害或者是會受到影響的人的話其實這可能我們相關淨零的工作循環的工作都會很難推進這部分部長我希望環境部可以再加強尤其是要要求縣市政府必須落實不能再搞剛剛臺北市這種做法好嗎好可以沒問題謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝謝洪委員謝謝部長那繼續請羅廷維委員質詢"},{"start":10397.133,"end":10399.977,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請彭部長部長請"},{"start":10404.245,"end":10433.388,"text":"委員好部長我想全國目前有多少列管的資源回收場你們都有列冊嗎有我想上網搜尋幾乎每個月都有大火比如10月2號淡水資源場附近表示居民都說這不是第一次2018年也燒過9月14土城鐵工廠兼資源回收場也大火那我想8月22號矽脂回收場也有造成大火還有一時的一個狀況4月24日彰化和美塑膠資源回收場也都有大火部長"},{"start":10434.308,"end":10460.831,"text":"這些資源回收廠常失火到底是人為還是非人為?你們都有做後續的調查嗎?幫委員其實這件事情我在德國也看到類似的狀況他們非常先進怎麼失火的所以他們在外面還配有一個消防隊在做這個處理那最主要的原因就是說我們現在的民眾手邊有太多的電池鋰電池等等的設備所以其實一遇到擠壓爆裂的情況就很容易發生"},{"start":10461.471,"end":10485.206,"text":"好我想我們想要探討的是另外一個問題就是會不會燒出黛奧辛跟各種有毒金屬物的一些相關空污問題我想回收場的管理機制究竟是什麼我想就像你剛剛所提到的不管是離電池或者相關的問題到底能不能加強這方面的一個機制讓這個事件能夠再減少我還是要再次強調這些有毒物質呢揮發到空氣當中"},{"start":10486.067,"end":10504.838,"text":"我們可以用一個事件來跟大家分享像911事件美國支援這一場救災將近2518位消防員因此罹患癌症這不僅是醫療支出的一個重大問題更是國家人才巨大的一個受創我想這些火災現場"},{"start":10505.538,"end":10525.486,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10525.746,"end":10546.984,"text":"目前其實針對一些事件我們都有即時的這個監控車啦例如說掩埋場的大火大概都有監控例如說有沒有超標然後那有超標的話就會提醒民眾進行這個疏散所以的確我們有做這個工作我希望有追蹤就會有報告啦是不是會後能夠把這個報告送來委員會讓我們來參考一下再者資源回收場的大火"},{"start":10547.364,"end":10571.756,"text":"租住附近的一個居民他們的因應是什麼誰負責通知他們這個機制有沒有建立起來我想這個部分中央也有責任去統一我想如果空氣懸浮物質濃度越來越高我們目前都有對於學校醫院附近住戶這個部分是不是要來做一個疏散我想目前對空氣為福利值這樣子的一個超標本來學校就會做一個公告"},{"start":10572.096,"end":10586.946,"text":"可是因為像我自己選區也有啊學校旁邊就有回收場那未來這些回收場萬一發生問題了做及時的連結做及時的一個通報這個是不是有辦法做更加強深度的一個連結那監測誰要來負責誰要來負責通知這個部分你們有想過嗎"},{"start":10590.308,"end":10617.105,"text":"報告委員其實這個例如說新北市跟我們化學署其實針對一些例如說深坑大火這種發生的這個事情都有一個緊急的這個處理我們經過一些事件之後有逐漸檢討所以今年有幾個事件其實就處理的蠻好我們希望就是用這幾個事件來做加大的一個擴大然後讓各縣市都能夠去了解這個事件所衍生出來的問題大家一起相互檢討那再來我想跟部長討論喔垃圾裸露堆置的一個問題您有耳聞台中的狀況嗎"},{"start":10618.166,"end":10639.891,"text":"有我去了這個臺中的大理你已經去看過大理了2024年6月24號就有新聞媒體就指出大理有30萬噸幾乎是飽和對於這樣的掩埋場的問題啊我想不只是大理臺中大理新竹新豐幾乎也都有這樣子的一個問題垃圾掩埋場甚至還有幾乎每年都有在燒的一個狀況"},{"start":10641.411,"end":10660.597,"text":"一月燒一次四月燒一次今年六月我想這個部分安利你有去看過嗎都有看過好我想不單單是新竹雲林南屏南投啊屏東啊桃園啊都有垃圾裸露堆置的一個問題我們是否能夠在你上任之後加強這個部分的一個部署甚至能夠來解決這些問題什麼時候才清的完大理這一場"},{"start":10661.857,"end":10680.068,"text":"大理第一個是其實報告委員大理整理得還不錯整理得還不錯啦我也要推薦大理這樣的狀況啦大理他有因為我們陽光的照射擔心可能會有過熱的一個狀況甚至用紅外線來監測對吧那是不是這樣的成功案例可以推廣到各縣市"},{"start":10681.429,"end":10708.796,"text":"我們現在正在進行就是說高風險的會優先來處理好我們能夠複製成功案例當然我們很開心但是我還是要問大理這個狀況雖然他現在安置的還不錯因為我記得都有用太空包甚至有這樣紅外線去做一個監測但是垃圾要清還是我們最希望的因為大理我住在旁邊我們南區還有這附近都會因為這大理飄散的氣味還是有影響到什麼時候能夠幫我們解決"},{"start":10710.137,"end":10725.275,"text":"大理還要一段時間因為它的量很大啦那也要看焚化爐的這個運作的狀況然後還有一個SRF臺中的這個處理的狀況所以我目前其實臺中還要一段點時間但是我跟委員報告以全台灣來說的話大理算是經營得很不錯的"},{"start":10725.796,"end":10751.744,"text":"好我希望既然是經營還不錯我們能不能加強補助或是加強這樣子的處理後續幫忙我們追蹤而不是因為我們處理的很好你是優秀的學生所以我不用管你就讓你放著然後就可以對峙很久這也不是我們希望樂見的啦所以是不是複製成功案例之後也要鼓勵這些成功案例讓我們能夠有更多的機會來把這個事情處理好這麻煩你關心台中好嗎好謝謝謝謝羅委員謝謝部長"},{"start":10754.862,"end":10780.23,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在林健喜委員他改書面質詢他改書面質詢接下來我們請洪文凱委員質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請環境部彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":10784.229,"end":10810.235,"text":"委員早彭部長本期持續關心也是國人所重視的議題就是碳費的一個部分那說今天有可能省議委員會做出最終的一個確認是不是就是優惠費率的部分會做出一個建議的方案好那今天確定是最後一次嗎還會不會有可能會再延期我希望他因為其實希望他們有收斂不要再開了因為每次都開個四五個小時非常長"},{"start":10810.675,"end":10826.869,"text":"是,因為每一次本來講是說今年上半年度就會把所有的一個費率的方案給確認嘛那但是現在也到今年的10月了嘛那如果說再下去的話我們到底什麼時候開徵以及什麼時候標準訂出遙遙無期我想這也不是我們政府所需要的一個方向"},{"start":10827.569,"end":10850.415,"text":"所以今天沒有辦法確定是不是最後一次?有沒有信心?我當然有信心啊就是說其實我也透過很多的方式跟大眾還有業界溝通還有產業NGO環保溝通目前的這個共識是已經非常的足夠啦但是我相信各位委員看到這兩天的媒體兩邊還是有一段的這個蠻大的差距當然"},{"start":10851.115,"end":10867.501,"text":"因為最主要就是希望有大家都希望是讓台灣的環境越來越好啦我想這也是我們永續經營發展的主要方向跟目標那可是我們不能口惠實不至啊到現在來講是說碳費的自主減量優惠到底是可樂價還是礦泉水價"},{"start":10869.449,"end":10884.984,"text":"還是講不清?我們到最後會落在什麼樣的一個基準點?他們今天要討論我不能去干涉他們但是我必須最後的結果是由我簽字來發布的那你的預期會不會到最後討論出來之後不符合你的預期你不發布?"},{"start":10886.385,"end":10909.345,"text":"我會尊重這個審議委員會的決定目前其實委員那個可樂價或是什麼水價其實部分因為其實整個管制之後像歐盟他都有一個比較優惠的這個費率會出來其實大家都差不多啦大家都差不多啦所以我們不要用那樣方式因為他企業如果要得到自主減量計畫得到那個優惠他要花更多錢欸"},{"start":10910.086,"end":10929.199,"text":"他要花更多成本嘛我們希望是說提供誘因嘛對我們提供這個比較優惠的費率是希望提供誘因讓企業自主管理減量減量之後他可以符合等於是說他先付出其他的成本企業成本來達到標準而藉此比較降低付出比較低的一個費率"},{"start":10929.679,"end":10956.825,"text":"那如果說他不願意付出那樣的一個成本那他就要付比較高的費率嗎沒錯其實概念是這樣但是再怎麼樣你的那個價格還是要有一定的標準啊就美國這邊來講說他們的外部成本每增加一公噸的這樣的一個排碳的一個費用外部成本要五千七百多塊台幣報告委員這個其實齁如果我們現在要說碳捕捉碳封存那個成本都很貴的啦是所以我們這兩個是沒有辦法這樣做比擬的啦"},{"start":10957.523,"end":10959.064,"text":"我們現在是2025年說希望能夠減排10%為一個目標你覺得有可能達到嗎?"},{"start":10978.234,"end":10995.481,"text":"那要不要修正還是我們現在10%目標要什麼時候可以達成我們目前其實在研議因為2025年的目標其實過去各位可以委員可以看到2022年的數字我們跟2005年只有減了1.8左右是其實是不夠這也是媒體大家都在講嗎"},{"start":10996.161,"end":11021.261,"text":"就是說過去10多年來我們努力了那麼久但反而是背道而馳我們的火力發電更加的多能源政策很多的因素但重點在於是說2002年跟2005年比較1.8%那我們只剩1年多的時間我們說要減10%剛剛部長你也承認了很有難度那就代表說這樣的一個計畫這樣的一個目標是空中樓閣"},{"start":11023.727,"end":11029.315,"text":"2025年可以達到多少?這個我還不知道沒辦法沒辦法預期那10%什麼時候能夠達到?因為如果說我們連10%都講不出來什麼時候達到那我們2030、2040甚至2050淨零碳排"},{"start":11038.254,"end":11041.318,"text":"打得成嗎?火力發電或是藍媒算不算是這個排堂的大宗?"},{"start":11056.194,"end":11079.562,"text":"藍媒發電藍媒是這個燃氣比藍媒少了大概三分之一它是一個過渡型的能源本席在之前經濟委員會以及相關委員會也都有詢問過台電本席的選區跟我們龜山桃園地區這個鄰近的選區林口火力發電廠現在是藍媒發電三部機組火力全開每一次你隨時上台電官網的時候基本上都是90幾%的發電"},{"start":11081.303,"end":11106.984,"text":"那我們問你既然藍莓是大宗也真的是跟現在世界趨勢背道而馳那什麼時候你退場機制民進黨政府有核電廠的退場機制那是你民進黨政府現在執政的一個政策方向雖然國際趨勢已經不是告訴你這樣子可是你們一直在一而再再而三有核電電廠的退場機制那我們現在要問的是那藍莓電廠的退場機制部長"},{"start":11108.284,"end":11130.287,"text":"這個是經濟部在規劃的啦那我看到他們是那您剛講了嘛你2025年10%你達不成達不到那你也講是說能源轉型是大家都要一起來做的那環境部現在在管的就是氣候變遷就是淨零碳排那你們也說了能源排碳這個燃煤發電是排碳大戶"},{"start":11131.991,"end":11156.706,"text":"那不是應該要來去做討論嗎那你是不是應該也要要求說說那這樣子台電你的林口火力發電廠燃煤你要不要轉型還是你要退場我們的確是有給這個台電設定一些排蛋係數的規劃希望他們可以更積極來進行的確是有在進行但是但是你委員你說的什麼燃煤退場的部分我現在還沒有看到相關的規劃"},{"start":11157.506,"end":11186.262,"text":"是因為經濟部台電雙手一攤跟你講說2035以前我的林口火力發電廠還是一樣是藍莓阿他就是雙手一攤阿這才是問題的所在阿部長今天的問題在於是說你自己也承認了我們現在全部大家也都希望是往這樣子的一個減碳的一個方向但是你們民進黨政府不要說你們啦民進黨政府能源政策他就是跟世界趨勢背道而馳也跟我們現在的方向背道而馳嘛"},{"start":11187.122,"end":11203.253,"text":"那所以說你才會做得那麼辛苦啊說真的我都覺得你委屈了2025年10%答不到跳票是你的責任但是答不到之後那怎麼辦呢那還有如果2025年10%都答不到你說2030年那時候預計要幾%24加減1是25%答得到嗎"},{"start":11209.31,"end":11226.21,"text":"現在目前我們正在規劃要大的轉型有機會到那個時候抱歉喔不知道您還有沒有在這個這個位置上啊那如果達不到大家雙手一攤現在那時候的政府是不是還是現在政府不知道大家雙手一攤那台灣還是台灣啊"},{"start":11227.659,"end":11246.731,"text":"部長拜託我真的在這個官位上說實話說真話真的把一些還在裝睡的人叫醒這個是本席給我們專業至少認為說還有專業的部長一些呼籲跟期待好不好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝王委員謝謝部長那接下來我們請羅志強委員質詢"},{"start":11260.049,"end":11260.73,"text":"主席有請部長部長好"},{"start":11267.95,"end":11297.79,"text":"日前衛福部長邱太元爆料說賴清德總統為了臺灣醫療院所溫室氣體排放的問題打電話罵你那我在總質詢的時候提議邱部長跟您握手這個風波雖然化解但是臺灣醫療院所減碳的問題還是個嚴肅的問題所以我有些問題想要就教於部長首先我想請問部長目前臺灣醫療院所溫室氣體排放量大概目前佔比是多少百分比"},{"start":11300.152,"end":11325.911,"text":"4.6那請問跟世界平均值比起來高還是低呢?高0.2那現在政府有計劃向醫療院所徵收攤費嗎?沒有為什麼?因為第一個是說醫院是救人的而且醫院也不是像這種工業的排碳大戶這麼的大那工業的排碳大戶其實但是我也必須說委員像有些中大型的醫院它的排碳量不會亞於一個工廠"},{"start":11326.671,"end":11344.825,"text":"因為他要用很這個一定的這個溫度還有這個負壓所以其實他的排炭量也是蠻多的但是沒有像工廠那麼的多我覺得部長講的很好是全球醫療院所很多都是排炭大戶的台灣也有很多醫療院所是排炭大戶但是因為醫療院所本身有救人的特性所以在"},{"start":11345.385,"end":11345.785,"text":"對此事不滿意．"},{"start":11360.282,"end":11362.263,"text":"我來整理一下我們的那個衛福部長的看法啦他是說醫療機構在處理這個"},{"start":11381.678,"end":11382.258,"text":"你覺得這個主張有道理嗎?"},{"start":11404.809,"end":11428.66,"text":"全世界目前也沒有什麼碳稅或碳費給醫療機構的例子所以這就是我要講的所以很顯然我們的衛福部對其他國家的狀況好像也沒有搞得非常清楚所以後來其實部長您原來對邱部長的意見您的回應本來是什麼你本來是說希望部分碳費能撥入醫療領域"},{"start":11430.501,"end":11459.265,"text":"那你那時候回邱太元部長說那個碳費才一點點啦然後衛福部錢比我們多而且事實上你剛剛也講嘛其他國家其實沒有這個做法嘛對不對我是私底下跟邱部長說那你要證明你這個氣候變遷醫療的增加是因為氣候變遷影響的你證明給我看那當然這個證明是困難的嘛他當然無法證明啊他不要講無法證明他連其他國家所謂的不收碳費的或碳稅的醫療院所"},{"start":11460.225,"end":11478.353,"text":"結果還把碳稅跟碳費拿去補貼這個醫院的他都沒舉出例子來嗎他有舉出例子來嗎沒有嘛好所以呢這個但是顯然部長對這事不滿意才打電話給總統嗎但是總統對你的主張有買單了嗎你剛剛對我回答這有跟總統解釋嗎"},{"start":11478.973,"end":11504.244,"text":"報告委員其實我必須在這個地方還原澄清總統並沒有罵我他是提醒我說醫療機構我舉例蘇委員的這個醫院他經營得很好但我相信也很辛苦然後我們應該用別的資源然後用保險基金等等用ESCO的方式來幫助醫院這個忙這樣做叫我鼓勵我可以這樣做院長也知道所以我們一起就是做其實我不是說"},{"start":11505.064,"end":11507.045,"text":"所以我就讓你還原那至少賴總統看起來也接受你的說法嘛是嗎"},{"start":11522.572,"end":11540.76,"text":"對那現在對於兩個部會你們現在有沒有比較折衷的做法是什麼我看了就是說環境部跟經濟部儘管會要導入保險基金嘛對不對幫助醫療院所進行節能減碳嘛所以換言之不是從碳費裡面去雲波啦對不對不是不是我最後來做個簡單的結論"},{"start":11542.541,"end":11559.05,"text":"因為現在部長你要來開始要在研議這個開徵碳費 事實上當然被收的人都會痛啦 被收的人都會有很多的意見啦 所以壓力也很大 但是我覺得要秉持專業啦 事實上我也不認同說今天"},{"start":11559.85,"end":11559.97,"text":"謝謝羅委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":11589.144,"end":11589.605,"text":"黃秀芳主席"},{"start":11606.072,"end":11627.325,"text":"王委員好部長好部長我們上禮拜我們委員會有排到彰化考察去看這個黑水盟那其實我覺得說我們以前都是只有看影片或者是照片那第一次能夠親自到現場去看親自去體驗我覺得這個"},{"start":11631.647,"end":11649.064,"text":"看到真的是還蠻驚訝的就是說這個黑水蒙它竟然可以將這個廚餘處理得真的是非常的棒那另外一個它還可以有那個污泥就是我們一些工業的那個污泥也可以透過這個黑水蒙來處理"},{"start":11650.265,"end":11675.613,"text":"那我想請教就是說未來有沒有可能就是說因為我們知道說工業的不論是電子或者是一些紙業所生產的那個算是廢渣也好或者是污泥那有沒有可能就是說環境部未來跟這些合作然後是朝向用這樣的一個生物的方式來處理"},{"start":11677.137,"end":11701.557,"text":"包括委員因為目前其實黑水蒙最好的還是廚藥的減量那廚藥的減量我們過去廚藥大概堆肥是比較多但是現在堆肥的使用量沒那麼的多那第二個就是養豬給豬吃然後用真煮的方式做處理那目前我必須說黑水蒙在使用在廚藥的使用量裡面比例大概不到2%那這個其實在國外的案例是應該可以更多的"},{"start":11701.917,"end":11717.104,"text":"所以我們其實也在研議說如何讓這個黑水盟的產業能夠可以真的起來那我必須說他們經營的委員看到那家我也去看過那也非常的好但是還有一段這個瓶頸在那個地方那我們環境部會來想辦法能夠把這個產業能夠帶動起來是"},{"start":11719.565,"end":11744.576,"text":"如果覺得說這個他處理廚餘的部分還不錯的話其實我覺得應該可以透過環境部跟各個地方縣市政府這個環保局應該去慢慢去推動是不是可以透過這樣的方式來處理廚餘的部分要不然其實之前之前很多我們的這個家裡面的這個廚餘有的可能就直接"},{"start":11745.436,"end":11745.476,"text":"提供討論"},{"start":11763.656,"end":11792.17,"text":"黑水蒙除了可以這個減少廚餘而且他的所有的東西幾乎也可以當成肥料那他利用這個黑水蒙或者處理這個汙泥的這個部分他沒有進到這個肥料的部分然後他可能就是進到這個生殖材油的部分所以我覺得說這個好像也還不錯那他目前也有在試處理汙泥這個部分所以我希望就是說如果"},{"start":11796.715,"end":11808.69,"text":"我覺得這個也是非常應該也是這個重金屬含量或者是我覺得如果透過這樣的方式來處理的話也許會比現在的方式更好"},{"start":11809.43,"end":11811.933,"text":"我個人是希望是說我們部內會來規劃一下把這個產業能夠動起來才可以解決我們各式各樣的問題我們會來推動"},{"start":11827.711,"end":11854.773,"text":"好那謝謝部長另外彰化縣在7月份就是有關這個垃圾的部分是用破帶的方式那剛剛一開始的時候當然民眾會還蠻反彈的可是在經過這個幾個月時間彰化縣政府的環保局也覺得說這個成效還不錯就可以垃圾量可以減到兩成左右那這個回收就是民眾做的這個"},{"start":11856.354,"end":11856.974,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":11879.185,"end":11892.165,"text":"對於整個垃圾的處理我覺得不是一個很好的方式啦那尤其有很多的這個堆置場它又是在學校的周邊那也是在水源頭所以我希望說未來針對我們的這個垃圾"},{"start":11894.528,"end":11894.788,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11921.671,"end":11946.796,"text":"我們不希望說這些垃圾是逐年的在增加我們應該是要看到它這些垃圾是逐年在減少而且是分類要分得很好那我希望就是說部長是不是可以給我們一個期許就未來你在這幾年當中我不知道說在你任內好了在你任內你希望這些垃圾的這個堆置場你可以做到什麼樣的程度"},{"start":11947.296,"end":11969.419,"text":"第一個是三年內把這個露天裸露的解決掉這個委員我一定會如期的完成定期的跟社會大眾報告這個數字全部都會公開讓大家能夠看得到的那第二個呢源頭減量齁我會找網購業者或是外送業者來道德勸說大家都有社會的責任他們能夠提供更環保的餐具或更環保的這個作為來做這個事情"},{"start":11970.86,"end":11984.396,"text":"另外一個是我希望其實有一個全循環的經濟園區才可以幫台灣未來解決這個問題我們目前其實因為中央跟地方的權責其實卡得非常的緊我們希望未來能夠有一些突破才能夠解決這個問題"},{"start":11986.838,"end":12010.8,"text":"當然這個我們希望說能夠逐步去解決因為其實每個人每天生產的這個垃圾量其實有時候覺得還蠻驚人的有時候你在網路上購買東西它的包裝就是層層的包裝一個小樣的東西它可能用一個大盒子大箱子包裝然後裡面又用那個泡棉可能就又包起來"},{"start":12011.4,"end":12039.202,"text":"所以其實我覺得如果說就部長講的可以跟這些網購業者有一些共識那是不是可以把如果是比較小樣的東西它的包裝就不要包的這麼大我覺得應該可以朝著這個方向去做源頭減量那我想請教部長就是說我們過去一直在追蹤就是我們的這個資源循環促進法那預計什麼時候要送到立法院"},{"start":12039.642,"end":12064.371,"text":"保委員因為我上任的時候的確也聽過這個法案的簡報但是我也看到裡面的一些問題跟盲點所以目前我們跟我們的團隊在討論是應該還是回到廢清法跟資源循環促進法兩法一邊是修正一邊是等於是兩個再重新再修正那這次我們比較不一樣是我有跟我們團隊說我們籌組了一個8加N的聯盟產業界一起來談不要我們環境部官方來談"},{"start":12064.991,"end":12066.033,"text":"我們希望明年可以送到"},{"start":12081.904,"end":12094.719,"text":"最後一個問題我想請教因為彰化在我的選區有兩個廠一個是廢棄物的堆置廠正在申請另外一個可能就是"},{"start":12096.081,"end":12102.125,"text":"我們希望說垃圾減量這個堆置的如果說我們可以從源頭減量的話那未來這樣子的因為這種都算是閒物設施你要設在任何一個地方民眾絕對不會同意而且"},{"start":12121.798,"end":12147.304,"text":"如果是又在水源頭如果是在水源頭的話所有的民眾都是抗議那我也希望就是說部長在你的任內我們也希望能夠看到這些垃圾焚化爐燒出的剩下一些底渣那這些底渣未來要怎麼現在有的是固化處理那像這樣子的話你又要找一個地方去掩埋我覺得"},{"start":12148.524,"end":12174.05,"text":"這個好像也是對整個環境的一個二次傷害而且當地的民眾也非常的反彈所以我希望說針對這部分我也希望這個環境部這邊也要去正視如果說所有的東西都可以從源頭去減量的話那也許我們可以就不需要這麼多的這個掩埋場對那我希望說部長這一件事我也希望你能夠正視"},{"start":12174.75,"end":12185.431,"text":"好謝謝委員我們會來助議謝謝好謝謝方委員謝謝部長現在我們處理臨時提案總共有三案請一併宣讀"},{"start":12186.36,"end":12214.063,"text":"第一案此次山陀额颱風夾帶大量風雨造成淹水導致大量家具受損和垃圾清運受颱風破壞的大型垃圾卻要付費這反映了在天災垃圾清運費用的政策上存在灰色地帶委員要求環境部在一個月內研擬相關措施提交立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員蘇清泉陳昭芝盧先一第二案"},{"start":12214.583,"end":12240.85,"text":"有鑒於土壤及地下水污染整治法自99年初全文修正後迄今未有再進行任何之條文修正考量該法內容中共計16條法則之規範經過近15年時間變遷及物價變化下應在有適度之修正增加原要求環境部應啟動修法研議作業現其於2個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告"},{"start":12241.59,"end":12263.988,"text":"提案人委員陳金輝盧憲一圖全集第三案有鑒於環境部宣誓將推動氣候科技循環園區藉以落實國內廢棄物問題徹底解決之目的然而具體在園區建立自主循環能力建立小型區域集中處理中心協助最適可行循環技術發展前處理設施"},{"start":12267.451,"end":12287.404,"text":"創試驗計畫試驗場址及全循環園區等五大措施上．擁有作業期程．費用規劃．用地選址及法治作業等事項．因揭露不明而應有檢討之空間．原要求環境部限期於二周內．向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告．提案人委員陳金輝盧憲一圖全集宣讀完畢"},{"start":12293.862,"end":12307.651,"text":"第一案我們建議後面倒數第三行在一個月改成一個月內瞭解情形提交書面報告以上一個月內瞭解情形提交書面報告"},{"start":12321.265,"end":12350.352,"text":"請問各位有沒有意見,現在這件事情有什麼?要瞭解?要處理了?其實有溝通過,那個是有那個他們現在是有處理了市長你一個月要研擬相關措施,他要把相關措施拿掉,他要瞭解情形,就一個月改兩個禮拜就好了"},{"start":12351.374,"end":12356.177,"text":"第二案第二案沒有意見第二案通過"},{"start":12379.946,"end":12380.106,"text":"提交書面報告"},{"start":12398.531,"end":12400.472,"text":"第三案就修正通過接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢"},{"start":12434.633,"end":12453.931,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請部長。部長請。主委好。部長好。先請教部長,這個垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策,這一本。這報告你有特別的double check過嗎?"},{"start":12455.429,"end":12456.37,"text":"目前全台裸露暫置垃圾掩埋場共53場"},{"start":12478.513,"end":12505.953,"text":"累計80萬公噸分別集中在新竹、屏東、南投、雲林、桃園等縣市那環境部目前這個應急措施就是未來3年內中央會投入12億補助地方政府將裸露垃圾複土來做掩埋及分選打包然後並訂定裸露垃圾掩埋場分園完成84萬噸的妥善處理目標沒有錯吧?沒有錯"},{"start":12508.281,"end":12526.119,"text":"同時你還寄望在今年年底新竹縣的焚化廠會完工以及116年台南市晨曦焚化廠更新這個焚化爐要完工來運轉然後藉此在這個全國有29場的總處理量能可以達到700萬噸的這樣的一個目標對有沒有錯"},{"start":12533.666,"end":12556.162,"text":"但是你這個規劃上顯然是是有問題的不然你看一下台灣現在在垃圾處理上還是以文化為主對不對沒錯我這邊有個資料部長你可以詳細閱讀一下111年這個是你們不提供給我的家屋垃圾也就是一般的廢棄物全國共產出在111年度的時候是469萬噸然後對於國內"},{"start":12561.099,"end":12568.542,"text":"這個公有的焚化爐每年可以處理650萬噸這數字應該都沒有錯嘛然後上面應該還有181萬的這個餘裕181萬噸的餘裕嘛同樣這個焚化爐你的事業會期物的處理量是97萬噸也應該沒有錯嘛因為這個數字是你們提供給我除了你們提供有錯誤嘛"},{"start":12585.29,"end":12587.932,"text":"問題來了在114年燒完當年這個家屋垃圾及4月廢棄物後應該還有80萬噸的空間這空間跑去哪裡"},{"start":12599.096,"end":12624.474,"text":"上面講的你的報告中指出累計裸露戰刺53場累計已經80萬公噸如果對照111年你們剛好又是有一個處理到一般交惡社事業費期物等等等而且你們事業費期物還有在持續的要求要減量嘛齁那你們還有一個80萬噸的空間這80萬噸的空間跑去哪裡"},{"start":12627.349,"end":12634.911,"text":"我沒有寫出來啦,你們自己算嘛650扣469扣97啊就84萬噸啊報告委員,這個97萬噸的這個數字因為我們是統計是180萬噸事業廢棄物事業廢棄物的部分是180萬噸這是你們網路的數字"},{"start":12657.489,"end":12658.309,"text":"那我到底要參考哪個數據?"},{"start":12685.578,"end":12702.548,"text":"我現在沒有問你們有沒有180你們知道網路是97嗎?你現在可以馬上上網就可以看了啊你們自己的資料是97萬噸啊所以我才會這麼跟你算出來說你還有84萬的84萬噸的這個餘量啊跑去哪裡啊我們請我們負責的你們就要數據釐清就再跟部長講"},{"start":12711.403,"end":12727.178,"text":"110年度的數據,台灣每年加護垃圾量平均就是在450萬噸左右嘛,對不對?然後事業會幾乎是在你們環境部的努力之下喔每年的這個申報的數據也都在減少那如果說180萬噸是沒有減少的是在增加喔"},{"start":12735.91,"end":12754.717,"text":"公告在上面的是屬於列管事業有97萬噸那有一些事業他沒有列管的他也會進文化場這兩個加起來是180萬噸有列管的97沒有列管的又有將近快83萬噸是這樣那為什麼你們網路部把這個東西標示出來"},{"start":12760.349,"end":12787.037,"text":"我回去會跟循環署這邊講還是你這83有什麼網路的部分我們把他你們這就有問題啊你83是怎麼處理一樣是你列管你列管你願意標示出來你沒有列管的你就不把他標示出來可以上下其手原本齁原本環境部以前環保署在補助部長應該很清楚嘛當時我們在補助這些魂化爐的時候"},{"start":12787.884,"end":12791.666,"text":"裸露堆置及災後垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾"},{"start":12817.489,"end":12842.717,"text":"我就覺得這問題又更大了啦其實魂化爐部長應該要應該有徹底去了解吧有有他的問題真的實在是非常非常的多啦哪一個地方政府執政這個魂化爐是整個他在控管反而不是你環境部不是對但是法律給你們之後應該甚至於你所謂的"},{"start":12844.016,"end":12867.287,"text":"116年度的台南市的城西混化廠的更新胡鬧爐這個錢的補助也是來自中央啊?難道是地方政府自酬嗎?沒有走促餐但是之前的胡鬧爐更新的費用110%是來自環境部啊沒有走促餐的除此之外"},{"start":12869.006,"end":12892.034,"text":"應該都是來自環境部啊?以前環保署啊?也沒有,它原先更新的部分也都是會走促餐促餐去更新,譬如說OT或者是其他的方式去做不走促餐不走OT,那更新葫蘆的費用來自哪裡?那就是廠商會有商業條件跟縣政府去談,這樣子環保署從頭到尾沒有編列預算補助過更新葫蘆爐"},{"start":12894.365,"end":12916.23,"text":"有一些規劃或者是前期的作業我們會補助一些錢但是規劃完畢之後那個部分就是規劃及前期的作業有其他的更新混濁化土的費用環保署完全沒有編列過任何一筆預算你那時候應該還沒有在這個位置吧如果還沒有在這個位置可能就小心這樣亂打會出問題我們可以調出來看嘛"},{"start":12919.981,"end":12936.939,"text":"現在是剛好預算還躺著整個審預算的時候我們就可以好好來討論環保署一年編了多少個預算來更新這些葷臘爐環保署是大頭捏你們怎麼會不清楚這個事情哪有規劃費用而已哪有走促餐而已"},{"start":12939.693,"end":12954.951,"text":"我要跟部長講說你看吼今天這個環境部的報告是說我們是計畫在116年度的時候混化量要達700萬噸嘛對不對好我覺得我覺得如果今天吼我們到現在還垃圾燒不完"},{"start":12955.816,"end":12974.686,"text":"我們國家變了這麼多的預算不管成了你所講的秋餐啦不管還是怎樣的情況之下環保署扮演的多重要的一個堅強的角色但是垃圾到現在還處理不完燒不完啦齁甚至於你看你還累計80萬公噸然後不是打包啊就是怎樣"},{"start":12976.052,"end":13001.184,"text":"繼續做這個SRF對不對那SRF在前部長宣布的時候我特別在委員會要求要整個盤整嘛我知道我知道裡面有動起來啦不合格規定的就打掉這個我肯定啦齁但是到現在全國應該只有18場不合格規定打掉幾場我們製造的有48場使用的有18場然後製造的部分的話大概有十幾場已經有轉型"},{"start":13003.806,"end":13024.864,"text":"有轉型?有轉什麼樣型?有的就沒有做了,有的就是它不是SRF了。對啦,是沒有做了還是轉型?有的沒有做了,有的就是不是SRF了,就不是認定SRF了。你在這邊我們SRF就主要是轉匯為冷嘛對不對?那你看喔,省經部給你一個報告是說環境部在2017年到2023年花費6億"},{"start":13028.047,"end":13055.933,"text":"9千多萬將近7億也是要補助這幾個縣市臺中臺南宜蘭雲林南投屏東花園臺東澎湖九縣市跟剛剛我講的這幾個全台裸露戰爭的垃圾場重疊最起碼一半以上然後設置15套垃圾的分選打包這樣的一個設施報告中還指出打包後的垃圾下一步應該就是製成SRF轉匯維能但是9成的打包垃圾沒有製成SRF"},{"start":13056.96,"end":13064.603,"text":"那你如果打包之後還是要拿到胡鬧裡去燒那等於你就是把漆就是拿到胡鬧裡去把它燒掉啊這事情部長知道吧知道知道對啊怎麼會這樣我剛剛還肯定你們啊"},{"start":13080.625,"end":13097.472,"text":"對SRF長的這樣的一個嚴厲的一個報告委員現在SRF的量能大概只有一年多就有30萬噸跟這個實際上的這麼的大量還是有很大的落差那所以其實我們體檢完之後我希望年底有一個白皮書能夠有一個比較好清楚的政策因為SRF在台灣"},{"start":13098.152,"end":13117.902,"text":"其實我必須說我們大概有兩成多的企業已經退出了所以其實它本身反而是沒有那麼合格的我們希望有好的合格重新再整軍再往前走啦不然的話當時這樣的制度我沒有參與在裡面但是我覺得當時急推SRF的確是對台灣而言管理不善是一個災難"},{"start":13120.253,"end":13136.514,"text":"在你還未就任之前我就有跟前部長講說SRF全國SRF要盤整一次我們盤整完了這個資料我們委員會還是本席也都沒有相關的資料我們這兩天會提供好不好給委員會我們來參考這第一啦那第二 審計部提出這樣的問題這確實是問題存在嘛"},{"start":13139.1,"end":13149.569,"text":"第3個SIF陳副部長所講的一年可以處理到30萬噸的量能現在嘛對不對你現在堆置的喔全台53場你們的累計是80萬噸喔你有九成沒有打包喔九成沒有處理喔九成打包之後沒有製成SIF喔這一來一往我不曉得你們怎麼處理這個事情我覺得這到底有問題啊"},{"start":13168.396,"end":13192.164,"text":"你寧願84萬噸在那邊暫時裸露然後你政府在邊綠山區去補助然後你一年可以處理30萬噸的SRF那如果這樣84萬噸增加我們先不談嘛你等於是兩年半你就可以全部都處理掉了啊當然沒有這麼講得這麼容易啦齁沒有兩年半即便三年也可以打掉啊你也不是說回過頭來來寄望116年這兩個胡鬧魯的啟用啊照你講的數據嘛"},{"start":13198.155,"end":13211.058,"text":"這是顯然有問題啊不過這個垃圾不是直接來做SRF,SRF有它的定義我當然知道啊,怎麼有可能垃圾直接做SRF我不知道當時這個定義是說要九成來做SRF的理由是什麼這個我再瞭解一下"},{"start":13213.052,"end":13213.232,"text":"好,謝謝劉委員"},{"start":13242.93,"end":13244.391,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請一下彭部長彭部長請"},{"start":13269.588,"end":13284.289,"text":"那等一下有提到的單位自己今天就自己主動上來部長好那我想先看一下剛剛劉委員關心了就是說這個報告的部分是交出來你們都要檢查嗎"},{"start":13285.931,"end":13307.411,"text":"我先請教就是在你們的報告的第一頁前言的部分倒數第二行有特別提到就是說裸露佔置垃圾之掩埋場共53場那我想請教哪些是在現有的107座的掩埋場裡面哪些是在堆置場全部都是我們107座裡面"},{"start":13310.651,"end":13332.139,"text":"全部都在107座裡面,所以它全部都是合法的,暫時裸露的都是合法的?都合法的,對。所以你這個是什麼東西?這個也都合法的。這個是合法的?對。好,堆成這樣,那我們再繼續看齁。好,那你們也可以再回去看一下你們的函式,好不好?"},{"start":13334.178,"end":13348.292,"text":"那個好那首先我關心一下就是說這個112年底有53座的這個垃圾裸埋場那在這個8個月的時候呢你們就是有減對不起8"},{"start":13350.319,"end":13370.748,"text":"在8個月的時候您減少了49 49座但我想要請教如果減少的原因是推動或者是執行什麼樣的措施然後就可以在短短的8個月的時間裡面減少4座的這個裸露堆置的狀態報告委員這個大概第一個是復土然後第二個是打包這兩個方式就不要讓它露天裸露"},{"start":13371.681,"end":13391.423,"text":"好所以那想請問一下就是你們復土主要的功能是第一個它不是屬於永久的就把它埋掉了是因為未來如果量能夠的話或是有SRF好的技術的話它還是可以拿來做分類的所以等於是暫時的把它這個掩埋復土所以你們就是在視覺上先做處理"},{"start":13392.023,"end":13410.497,"text":"對先處理先處理那但是因為你復土之後那請問就是說就是說這個裸露堆置因為不是只有這個環境衛生部家會引起附近民眾的反感嘛他們一定很不滿那因為這個包括了就是惡臭地下水污染還有蚊蟲滋生還有輕運這個交通的這個時間交通的這些問題"},{"start":13413.459,"end":13428.066,"text":"那有時候呢就是也要伴隨需要就是說提供這個地方補償回饋金這些等等的問題那我不知道說你們這裡減少的試作是哪試作剛剛我講的那些問題都已經解決了嗎"},{"start":13428.766,"end":13443.602,"text":"報告委員其實這個第一個如果要掩埋腹土他的這個汙水的處理一定要做到完全徹底都一定得一個規範那如果掩埋腹土之後因為他很厚所以他基本上的就不會有這種惡臭的情況產生所以這個這個基本上很厚就不會有惡臭"},{"start":13444.122,"end":13470.808,"text":"對阿他還要把他再包起來所以基本上就很像說我們現在我們有時候到內湖那個焚化廠的旁邊有一座山那個其實裡面也都是所以我剛剛提的二臭地下水蚊蟲滋生還有青雲這些通通都沒有問題都要做這個都是標準的但是你們現在復土之後都沒有這些問題他要復土之前都要先把它蓋住對啦你就跟我說現在完全都沒有這些問題就好了因為你都做好啦"},{"start":13472.813,"end":13485.44,"text":"就是那四座,四座也蠻長的對啊,就是都沒有問題了嘛就復土起來就都沒有問題了暫時沒有問題啦暫時好,那我想就是說你剛剛講說垃圾都焚燒之後會去焚燒嘛"},{"start":13490.382,"end":13517.298,"text":"還是它就是變成這個因為你們暫時堆置雖然是暫時的齁但是因為我不知道你們這個數學怎麼算因為你如果說減少了堆置場那等於就是多了掩埋場的意思啊這個都是在掩埋場裡面啦對啦因為你就覆蓋了覆蓋不就埋起來了嗎對就是另類的掩埋場它其實本來就是掩埋場"},{"start":13518.505,"end":13529.418,"text":"但是他我講的是堆置的部分對他堆置就是有一個是露天裸露堆在那個地方但是我們把它復起來然後他也不會造成環境景觀上的危害"},{"start":13530.632,"end":13549.165,"text":"未來他跟那個最終處置的這種所謂的像例如說內務分很多的這個這個垃圾山這這樣處理是不一樣的我們時間的關係我們先往下去討論然後那這個就是說好因為我們看一下這個天下雜誌在今年9月4號出刊裡面"},{"start":13550.105,"end":13570.452,"text":"第102頁的這個就是我們的環關署的嚴署長有特別講就是不裸露就是妥善處理那你有特別講說這個是國際間接受的處理方式那本席想要請教就是說請問包含了哪些國家你講的這個國際間就包含了哪些國家"},{"start":13573.236,"end":13591.374,"text":"我們一般的垃圾處理有兩大主流一個是焚化一個是掩埋當然還有其他的例如說氣化等等我的問題沒有很複雜我只問說有哪些國家有接受這樣的方式比如說美國澳洲目前都還是使以掩埋為主的"},{"start":13593.236,"end":13611.247,"text":"主要大國那哪些先進的國家你說哪些是你剛除了講澳洲那還有哪些先進的大國有這樣處理應該連日本也有那你講到大國德國算大國吧德國也有德國也這樣子處理"},{"start":13617.834,"end":13629.82,"text":"因為我這樣主要是因為我查了一下德國的部分他們在2005年6月的時候開始他們就不允許這個未經處理的廢棄物就進入掩埋場"},{"start":13634.442,"end":13649.79,"text":"我國是根據公有廢棄物掩埋管理規範也就是從2007年1月1日開始我們也跟進所以大家可以看一下簡報所以這個是國際的做法還是國際的笑話還是說這個有公然違法的問題"},{"start":13658.137,"end":13664.483,"text":"因為我們有查詢到德國在2005年6月開始不允許未經處理的廢棄物進入掩埋場"},{"start":13666.833,"end":13669.674,"text":"我想我們查詢到的資料是這樣所以你說國際間都接受那我就不太清楚因為我們看到的這個文獻資料是這個樣子就提供給你們參考"},{"start":13691.442,"end":13694.264,"text":"目前他應該是說在現有的合法掩埋場裡面他進去應該做戶土或打包"},{"start":13713.612,"end":13732.466,"text":"但是他沒有做這件事情所以我們要求他依照標準的掩埋或處理的方式做處理所以就地方政府他們的問題嘛你的意思是這樣地方政府他管理的掩埋場垃圾也是地方政府地方政府誰管"},{"start":13733.376,"end":13748.938,"text":"我們督導的部分就是要求你們誰管誰監督就我們監督啊所以大家都有責任嘛我也沒有說但我不會講說是地方政府的責任嘛我現在的說連我都有責任我都講進去我就不會講地方政府啊"},{"start":13750.387,"end":13779.473,"text":"好了我這樣講給你參考不要講地方政府好嗎你們也有責任齁那 那個目前齁就是已經有107座的野賣場嘛那還有354萬立方空間我想要釐清一下因為立方空間的公式是什麼長城因為我們就學過長城寬城高立方空間就是一米一米那它其實大概乘以0.7大概就是多少噸的概念"},{"start":13780.393,"end":13806.659,"text":"你的意思是說這個是立方公尺嗎?公尺,我們現在有公尺,因為垃圾它的比重好,所以空間是還要乘上比重的意思?對對對,如果量來說的話那因為這個之前在其他地方還沒有看過那他們足夠容納72萬噸的裸露的垃圾嗎?可以那這些裸露堆置的垃圾有沒有可能說交由掩埋場來做衛生掩埋?"},{"start":13809.267,"end":13831.869,"text":"現在就是現在就是現在就是交給他們做衛生掩埋對好就是直接包起來打包打包處理然後就埋進去打包之後就沒有埋或是說直接他的這個這個垃圾直接用附土埋掉"},{"start":13833.134,"end":13841.106,"text":"好,不是埋進去,是把它蓋起來?蓋起來,今天蓋起來。喔,那沒工啦。對,對,對。喔,這就是土高,下面這就是電管,埋起來看不見。對。好。"},{"start":13843.117,"end":13868.439,"text":"好那到底這樣埋可能在法規上吼那個還是還是要看一下吼那目前49座的這個裸露裸露的場地吼他們對於這個地方的影響吼是難道都是一樣的嗎然後有沒有特別復雜困難處理的地的這些場址那你們環境部有沒有就是應對的措施啊然後希望什麼時候讓49座的這個裸露場址吼全部東東消失"},{"start":13869.648,"end":13897.275,"text":"我希望三年內可以解決這個問題啦但是這個只是說我必須說這是暫時自己啦所以三年內還是就是應該是在部長您的任內嗎我希望我可以做到那個時候那嚴署長是會在您的任內嗎完成你應該會待得比部長還久吧你是事務官對不對我跟他一起退休我們一定會完成完成做完再走吧"},{"start":13898.416,"end":13923.867,"text":"我會努力我會努力我們也會跟總統講一下做完再走我會努力包委員這個齁要處理這個是專案跟地方啦所以我們的確一個縣市一個縣市跟環保局一起來去抓啦剛剛我就一直聽到嚴署長講說是地方政府管的然後旁邊那個還點頭這樣子啊趕快把責任攬到我們這邊來我們都通力合作啦因為我都是找縣市首長跟環保局來一起"},{"start":13924.127,"end":13941.36,"text":"台灣在你們任內台灣還會不會有新的新增加的垃圾裸露的場域 不會 不會吼 不會 嚴書長會不會在你的任內 不會 那你會做多久 全國人多給我們指導"},{"start":13942.25,"end":13961.215,"text":"好,你不要說不會,啊只有半年你就沒在這裡,這樣賣什麼?賣啦賣啦賣啦好,那如果不會增加齁,我們比較關心說那奇怪過去為什麼有這麼多裸露的場址那你們升格之後到底法令有什麼樣有效的法令齁跟這個政策工具來禁止全部把它覆土蓋起來"},{"start":13962.562,"end":13984.731,"text":"其實我也要感謝大家社會的這個壓力我是覺得這個都是一個正面的循環那我們也認真的去面對這個事情所以我就覺得這個法令從源頭的減量整個很好的循環的體系的建立這才是必要的我必須作為這個我們自己我如果我可以解決我就解決這個都要靠地方中央地方一起合作"},{"start":13985.371,"end":14012.758,"text":"我現在因為我那個召委站起來我有點緊張因為我第一次遇到他擔任召委然後我質詢這樣子我們通常那個我自己當召委的時候我都會再多給一點時間好謝謝然後我快問完了我快問完了那我們現有的這個裸露場地你們投入很多的監控設備那甚至用了這個AI的技術那好像這個AI技術這個監控好像在監控我們的防空飛彈一樣喔那"},{"start":14014.418,"end":14034.48,"text":"我要請教說你垃圾裸露了那因為不會因為這些監控然後就不裸露那也不會因為監控然後這些這些就消失不見了所以我們監控的意義在哪裡是因為怕人家偷盜還是說還怕火災環境風險"},{"start":14036.062,"end":14052.804,"text":"報告委員這個掌握垃圾量我們未來齁會把這個每一個這個每一個縣市每一個點全部都公開讓大家知道他他處理的多少所以你們這樣就有能力管理了希望希望就是說這個不然的話我數據都是半年來一次好我們就不要再推到地方啦那因為"},{"start":14054.665,"end":14076.133,"text":"一定要看一下部長英姿煥發的姿勢你去視察了各地方的垃圾處理場還有補助焚化爐的維修跟興建那我們也深刻感覺到就是說這個環境部對比過去的環保署好像真的對於這個焚化爐的政策已經有所不同了"},{"start":14076.833,"end":14097.446,"text":"所以過去我也曾經質詢那希望說環保署可以正面看待焚化爐設施進步性跟這個邊際效應的問題那我想我很肯定部長有這樣新的思維那鼓勵說用焚化爐來解決垃圾的問題那但是雖然我們台灣沒有因為燒紙的話就垃圾變得比較少但是說環境部至少我們現在應該要努力"},{"start":14097.466,"end":14113.626,"text":"﹗"},{"start":14114.173,"end":14114.954,"text":"謝謝主席 有請彭部長"},{"start":14143.916,"end":14144.817,"text":"部長請部長您好在南投縣新義鄉他們原本要做一個垃圾轉運站環保園區但是在2021年開始他們因為在他們的明德村的門口"},{"start":14165.615,"end":14165.635,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":14182.601,"end":14204.115,"text":"我3月去做了一個現刊的協調會議我在這邊是要跟您說在環保署升格為環境部的這一段時間很謝謝當時與會的一位環保署的長官他很有擔當他就當場說6個月一定全部清雨萬壁"},{"start":14205.556,"end":14218.409,"text":"那我要跟您說他確實見急屢急在10月垃圾全部清運完畢那這個部分其實是我是要代替明德村的村民要特別他們托我說要謝謝就讓您知道"},{"start":14220.911,"end":14223.073,"text":"那另外就是在今年臺東蘭嶼我也是一樣接到相公所跟我澄清我要跟您說"},{"start":14242.611,"end":14258.461,"text":"蘭嶼這幾年觀光非常的興盛垃圾越來越多其實在地的居民也一直跟我講非常的擔憂他們的垃圾運不出去在7月的時候糟糕了就有垃圾事件發生了"},{"start":14259.241,"end":14274.263,"text":"您知道我從4月7月4號的晚間接到通報就一直協助他們一直到7月9號的晚間那我怎麼辦呢當時你要知道他是倒其實你要叫消防署我也跟署長聯繫"},{"start":14275.919,"end":14276.099,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":14292.029,"end":14321.169,"text":"大家怨聲載道阿那六天空汙好可怕又難聞整個島都是煙霧瀰漫非常的可怕那我其實要講的是說我們最近阿像這個在梨山垃圾瀑布經常時有所聞垃圾瀑布在燒特別是在年節更容易燒你看他都還在本島欸在我們還要十天欸所以那個蘭嶼能夠燒個五六天完畢不容易"},{"start":14321.969,"end":14350.449,"text":"那而且我知道的是當年林佳龍市長他為了這個問題因為我們原住民地區所住的地方都不是在台縣所以當時林佳龍市長有補助公所500萬去做清運的費用讓他們可以送出去好那我其實只是想要問部長您說像這種山林島嶼成堆的垃圾山垃圾瀑布他焚燒之後衍生的這個空污問題我不曉得說因為我們都只有解決"},{"start":14351.81,"end":14354.096,"text":"那個災害消滅就好但是空污的問題怎麼辦"},{"start":14355.538,"end":14382.687,"text":"報告委員第一個是蘭嶼或是蘭嶼的問題我們希望未來可以有一個遮棚在這個室內來舉行這個問題就會比較少那至於說這個造成這個空汙或空氣汙染例如說它燃燒那燃燒一定會有短暫的空汙那其實我們環境部大概都會跟地方環保局有一些監測車去監控而且提醒這個民眾當這個淹到哪裡的時候要進行什麼樣的這個庇護的措施我們是有在進行好"},{"start":14387.712,"end":14400.567,"text":"那我其實要講的就是延續就是這個垃圾瀑布這不是新的名詞捏其實五六十年前整個原住民部落都是垃圾瀑布然後一下雨呢就跟著那個山溝垃圾"},{"start":14401.608,"end":14401.789,"text":"獲得最新報告。"},{"start":14417.25,"end":14432.886,"text":"那我知道的呢像經濟部水利署的北水特分署因為他們那個地方是翡翠水庫供應大台北的水源所以即便那邊的露營場都是違法的可是北水特分署呢他還是能夠自己編錢給區公所"},{"start":14435.208,"end":14458.673,"text":"去做一些承包的工作去處理這些污水他們設置的這個淨水槽呢叫那些露營區他只要負擔他們自己接管到廁所洗手台的接管費那我要講的是說其實我覺得環境部你們應該你們雖然是開罰的單位但是你們應該要跟這一些目的事業主管機關要主動積極坐下來談因為畢竟"},{"start":14462.034,"end":14482.543,"text":"最重要的就是我們土壤水源空氣的一個維護那我希望環境部這個地方能夠更努力那最後一個小小的我只是要講的是說垃圾越來越多以我自己的馬家鄉這個都是我每天收的簡訊你看他們都跟我抱怨什麼回到前一張他們都跟我抱怨說隊員回去換車"},{"start":14486.264,"end":14495.928,"text":"然後請村民等待等候通知這是我自己部落自己鄉的簡訊我每天都在看每天都在換車有時候的那個像我們的那個叫什麼現在的廚餘很快就滿了他們就說要回去好重點來了我問鄉公所說要不要幫你們叫那個要不要申請車他們也不要為什麼負擔不起啊"},{"start":14511.575,"end":14535.762,"text":"所以我覺得這個很多的問題我們要去了解因為追根究底就是原鄉垃圾侵運的量能不足那我知道現在我們有一個補助地方政府換購地攤垃圾車也有提到這一些原鄉地區會因為垃圾車輛不足然後怎麼樣怎麼樣可以提出相關佐證等等等那我只是希望就是讓部長您了解我們部落的巷弄狹窄這個是我的部落"},{"start":14540.623,"end":14561.852,"text":"議員．"},{"start":14561.952,"end":14562.412,"text":"繼續請邱若驊委員質詢"},{"start":14595.033,"end":14597.594,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請我們環境部彭部長請問這次風災過後對後續可能會引發登革熱的問題 貴部在政策上有什麼作為"},{"start":14616.738,"end":14635.243,"text":"整個燈格熱是尋到刷青啦齁那這個我們會加強這個宣導的力道那另外一個雙北這次是一個主要的新的熱區所以我們會跟地方環保單位一起來做一些熱區的這個清消的工作那南部來說的話會持續的加大的來辦理那個過去我們跟衛福部有一個相互配合的措施"},{"start":14635.882,"end":14638.084,"text":"請問部長燈格熱防治跟清除積水容器還有化學朋友哪一個應該優先?"},{"start":14656.537,"end":14676.66,"text":"應該是這個優先然後最後才是化學噴藥但是其實這個齁我到過這個南部幾個縣市有幾個做得好的話都是主動稽查的部隊因為有些的這個空地或是民眾不知道他就會有些積的積水的這個發生他們會有些人去做檢查這個加大離島檢查這個才是最好的做法"},{"start":14684.365,"end":14703.898,"text":"民眾是否真的會動手清除積水的容器還有隱藏性的滋生原積水容器是否清除那實際成效是另外一回事那第二在防治在防疫政策需要噴藥的時候民眾是否對其有充分的瞭解我們環境部有去了解嗎民眾是否瞭解噴藥是什麼樣的用藥嗎"},{"start":14707.02,"end":14712.522,"text":"委員會特別提到像是去年在登革熱疫情的時候第一線人員噴藥跟民眾發生衝突的新聞還歷歷在目有特別把去年的新聞"},{"start":14733.308,"end":14761.538,"text":"接觸來那本期建議部長在執行登革樂防治的時候要重視跨部會的合作跟經濟相關的危機監測那特別是溝通方式要更靈活更彈性還有是我們來適度的調整策略那溝通方式應該由民眾的角度來看那要建立更有效的危機溝通機制讓民眾瞭解政策而且他們讓願意讓他們願意主動的去清除積水容器或是配合噴藥還有稽查"},{"start":14762.938,"end":14770.378,"text":"那當然在第一線的朋友也是要做得很精準因為我們有看到除了就是有衝突之外我們也看到了"},{"start":14773.629,"end":14793.125,"text":"我們也看到在防治的時候有其他的事端延伸那本席希望部長就以上上開的建議在兩個月內給本席一個書面報告OK嗎?OK好 報告委員 這個其實也是家戶是屬於衛生局在負責的啦那我們是戶外的所以我剛剛看到委員這幾個大概都是室內的是衛生局的工作"},{"start":14798.628,"end":14809.773,"text":"臺北新北都有登革勒的疫情那我們桃園也是那希望就是可以宣導所以宣導之外也要真的落實執行可以可以好OK以上好謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝邱委員最標準謝謝謝謝邱委員謝謝部長那接下來欸喔在玩喔"},{"start":14822.148,"end":14824.629,"text":"好 接下來我們請何欣淳委員 質詢謝謝主席 蘇委員 我們是請彭部長"},{"start":14838.015,"end":14854.006,"text":"委員好部長好第一次來質詢剛剛有武力化委員提到我台中離山部分的這個垃圾的問題那請部長這邊是不是可以要求地方政府是不是大家中央地方一起合作來看看我們台中市的這個垃圾的問題"},{"start":14856.107,"end":14883.818,"text":"因為確實在這幾年來我聽說尤其臺中市議會的議員曾經也質詢過臺中市的垃圾未來是一個很大很大的一個令人擔憂的地方其實在上一任環保署署長的時候大概兩三年前在疫情時間我就曾經就就交給這個署長有關於各縣市之間地方的這個垃圾的一個處理真的是在這幾年來是一個我們必須要中央"},{"start":14884.358,"end":14893.408,"text":"要能夠掌握而且要提出有效的解方這部長這第一個提醒也希望我台中的部分請你多多關心第二個剛剛在經濟委員會我聽到這個國發會主委有說要來找你討論商量"},{"start":14899.455,"end":14923.961,"text":"商量什麼你知道嗎今天經濟委員會的討論的是有關的中小企業的一個創新以及未來面對的這個ESG近鄰碳排那未來我們政府可以如何扶植如何幫助那國發會主委呢有講一句話他說呢他要找環境部來商量因為呢我們呢要結合部會資源要成立綠色科技等"},{"start":14924.601,"end":14931.806,"text":"總統跟院長都很關心啦他們關心醫療了之後其實我後來他們提醒我之後我就積極的去找國發會金管會還有保險公司所以國發會很支持我們要成立一個100億的綠色成長基金"},{"start":14949.857,"end":14964.023,"text":"就是針對這個淨零循環經濟整個政府可以來投資鼓勵這個產業能夠起來是那我現在就要跟部長分享我在基層我的選區很多的中小企業臺中也是傳統產業的重鎮現在我們針對碳費以及推動減碳的政策是以這個"},{"start":14970.225,"end":14992.584,"text":"大大小那希望是用產業鏈的關係來看整個推動那當然你們現在相關碳費的執法規正在公告那我只是提醒部長中小企業尤其是在產業鏈的中下游的其他這種協力的微型廠商非常的焦慮第一個焦慮是什麼對政府的政策其實他不是那麼的瞭解"},{"start":14993.385,"end":15008.831,"text":"不是那麼的了解第二個所謂的這個碳費的前端可能要的所謂的碳盤查什麼碳計算什麼有的沒有的他們也不懂那這中間呢我們也產生了很多在基層上看到民間的所謂的顧問公司來"},{"start":15010.711,"end":15035.421,"text":"來跟各個中小企業說來來我來跟你說明聽我的就對了你知道嗎在上個禮拜的經濟委員會公平會主委到我們立法院來備詢的時候很多位我們地方選區的區域立委都講到一件事情就是因為呢中小企業還有微型企業對於政府的政策跟未來的這個所謂的綠色科技啦我如何可以被認證啊如何可以減碳啊如何怎樣怎樣"},{"start":15036.943,"end":15052.793,"text":"沒啥了解所以一大堆的這個所謂的這個顧問公司呢如竹筍般的生出來了那到處吹噓到處招攬然後到處收取顧問費中小企業因為不賣所以他想說這可能比較專業"},{"start":15055.394,"end":15077.377,"text":"聽信顧問費付了．到底能不能達到政府要的減碳．他們的努力投資的綠色的成本到底能不能被認證都沒人知所以上個禮拜在經濟委員會就要求公平會主委針對如果有廣告不實．或者是有這個說的比做的還好聽．做的"},{"start":15078.258,"end":15095.752,"text":"很少說了很多的是不是也應該政府要拿出公權力來而這個其實不是只有公平會主委的事我覺得跟環境部有關係這個其實我已經有接獲一些檢舉的案例那我們也在調查當中那我希望我會可以積極來處理的確委員說的是對的因為很多人在販賣這種恐慌焦慮來謀利這的確是不好的"},{"start":15101.576,"end":15126.213,"text":"那中小企業也不必過於擔心因為我們有一系列的輔導措施我們是針對大企業要影響到中小企業其實那個量很低很低啦但是我覺得部長這個你要說清楚因為很多真的不懂真的不曉得那大家因為資訊的不透明或是接觸不到接收的不完整所以這樣子的恐慌事實上到處在蔓延我參加了很多的工協會的會員大會"},{"start":15128.394,"end":15144.032,"text":"很多都還在跟我反映這一件事情好 報告委員你就請我去參加你說的好 那我就邀請你我中部有好多的工協會我希望在產業面能夠真的能夠知道說環境部未來對於淨零碳排的"},{"start":15144.592,"end":15165.479,"text":"建建式的一個程序時程推動還有輔導的措施還有政府可以怎麼協助的我希望有一個人說了算啊不然我們現在在七點看到的這些顧問公司說了不算那誰說了算尤其呢包括我相信今天有其他委員有問到在近年探牌裡面的探盤查來"},{"start":15167.579,"end":15193.579,"text":"誰算是對的對的話又誰來認證認證跟驗證的單位又有哪些你知道我上網去看喔環境部公告的跟經濟部公告的是不一樣的加數不一樣的數字那請問一下你們怎麼分工那你們又怎麼去認定那我中小企業或是微型企業我如果有相關的問題我自己上網去查了很多都是二代二代年輕人他們會上網查"},{"start":15195.66,"end":15213.97,"text":"可是查的時候他告訴我什麼不好意思啦我去環境部這裡看看我去經濟部這裡看看看來看過去我還是不懂到底誰是權責單位誰說了算那我又該去找誰有沒有可能成立你跟經濟部可以有一個單一窗口好可以我們現在會研議"},{"start":15214.89,"end":15230.88,"text":"拜託你們演繹好不好我覺得這個很重要很重要好那多久的時間可以成立我們現在在深度節能針對整個大戶的正在進行當中我希望我把這個東西帶帶進去可能兩個月內給委員一個答覆好不好好謝謝謝謝何委員接一期我們請林淑恩委員質詢"},{"start":15248.086,"end":15249.547,"text":"臺灣的垃圾處理政策最後到現在會導致垃圾堆積如山"},{"start":15277.442,"end":15297.767,"text":"你覺得最簡單的原因如果要說大概是什麼原因?報告委員因為我也看了最近的一些數字啦我就覺得從源頭的這個資訊的掌握的處理我們可能過去沒有很精確源頭的資訊現在不用啊因為就堆積如山一座一座現在就是說"},{"start":15299.468,"end":15303.491,"text":"呃裸露堆置的垃圾量已經是72萬噸了比如說源頭的數據你不是講源頭減量喔你是講數據可能不精準可是很明顯的就49處的掩埋場堆成一座座的垃圾山新竹特別嚴重全台最大的垃圾堆積區啊"},{"start":15318.723,"end":15334.128,"text":"新竹的垃圾山已經高達6層樓了16公尺多了5、6層樓總量一個新竹就超過20萬噸全台已經達到72萬公噸這個堆置在那裡的量這是事實這個不是統計的問題"},{"start":15336.345,"end":15363.063,"text":"但是這個是從其實第一個當然這個是你覺得主要的問題是出在哪裡第一個是焚化爐這個整改的問題第二個是整改的問題嗎還有第二個是我們對於整個一般廢棄物事業廢棄物整個這個流向的管制管理這個數據的掌握我必須承認其實我觀察的時候其實我們還是有很大進步的空間我必須要從數據的掌握才可以知道源頭才有辦法"},{"start":15363.203,"end":15363.403,"text":"你知道嗎?"},{"start":15393.25,"end":15393.27,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":15420.749,"end":15440.381,"text":"因為當時其實每一個焚化爐他在這個興建的時候都有簽訂跟地方政府簽訂一些合約包含了就是說他可以收納多少收納多少的失業廢棄物所以啊真正的原因就是大量的失業廢棄物占用了家戶這個要焚化的焚化爐的處理量能排擠了民生垃圾的處理空間"},{"start":15442.162,"end":15458.755,"text":"所以以新竹市為例新竹市的焚化廠這5年燒失業廢棄物的比例高達45%嚴重影響了民生垃圾的處理能力然後你再去看不是只有新竹市政府包括北投的台北市政府的北投木柵內湖南區廠高雄的岡山廠"},{"start":15464.56,"end":15467.943,"text":"都超過50%以上的事業廢棄物都進場 進到這個公共的這個焚化爐去欸所以變成本色沒人要修 一般垃圾沒人要修都修事業廢棄物 這樣對不對"},{"start":15481.555,"end":15508.53,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是你說的例如說北部的他的統計例如說我們家戶家戶的這個有人幫我們收垃圾他可能就當成是商業廢棄物事業廢棄物在做計算所以這個其實各個縣市都存在這個數據這個數據上的偏差我們就暫時不討論可是我們就是看到現在你就是這麼多這麼多然後呢新竹我們就講現實一點這還包括就是你說簽約嘛要燒多少的事業廢棄物嘛"},{"start":15510.091,"end":15527.62,"text":"可是在簽約的過程裡面為什麼新竹市政府處理事業費器物一噸收3000元比收新竹我們都是新竹縣的垃圾裸露高達20萬噸全台最大的垃圾山因為新竹縣政府的垃圾要到新竹市政府去收一噸才1000元人家事業費器物進場是3000元"},{"start":15533.343,"end":15553.668,"text":"所以新竹市政府當然優先要選擇收這個事業廢棄物去燒而且真正的問題也不是在這裡我們又不是沒有民間焚化廠民間焚化廠他可以處理的餘裕很多欸但是民間焚化廠一頓要收多少錢五千以上講錯了啦民間民間要收多少錢八千八千到一萬"},{"start":15562.703,"end":15583.365,"text":"發言到1萬還到1萬8啦是公共焚化爐的6倍所以有失業廢棄物的焚化爐可以收而且有餘裕有量能而且民間的焚化爐失業廢棄物的焚化爐不用給你燒到滿它的那個處理量能不用燒到滿就可以賺大錢"},{"start":15585.337,"end":15595.183,"text":"為什麼?因為收費太貴了啊。所以呢,交給我們的公共焚化爐三千塊,多少?萬倍!不是你說的五千、八千、一萬,是萬倍!所以你對這個數據都沒有掌握。所以2019年啦,經焚化爐處理的一般事業費、器物超過一半。"},{"start":15607.429,"end":15632.823,"text":"將近60萬噸去了大型焚化廠,就是我們的公共焚化廠所以民間還有多少量能限制你知道嗎?署長你知道嗎?保定一點,不知道民間還有多少的量能餘裕可以來處理?署長不知道,保定不知道,你們兩隻手都不知道,你們說你們要管事業廢棄物,說你們要管好焚化爐,說你們要做什麼改革什麼問題都騙人的"},{"start":15635.604,"end":15643.468,"text":"報告委員那個事業廢棄物是主管機關經濟部他們的工作你們不用追蹤喔那跟你們都無關喔當然要阿數據當然要把握阿要掌握阿民間繁華廠還有漁獄嫌質量可以還高達80多萬噸但是這棟賣宿賣宿一萬八千塊關鍵是在這"},{"start":15662.079,"end":15670.783,"text":"你那個62萬噸叫公共焚化爐本來要燒家戶垃圾的結果去燒了事業廢棄物因為三千塊而已真正要燒事業廢棄物的一棟修門櫃而且還有量能可以處理遠遠大過於你進到公共焚化爐的量啊這要怎麼處理?他還沒燒到半他就可以賺大錢啊 民間的"},{"start":15690.463,"end":15713.656,"text":"報告委員這個民間的這個我們數字上沒有掌握我們我們了解之後我是跟你講說這種價格這麼嚴重的失衡所以你市場取向一定是成本降低啊大家也要去叫公共分化去修如果要修家戶垃圾新竹市就不需要修新竹縣耶然後一場一場的垃圾山就跑出來這問題在這啊"},{"start":15717.048,"end":15729.637,"text":"我再說第二個問題,主要問題啦,區域調度的機制失效,我們有調度辦法,但沒有法則和執行力,所以沒辦法進行跨區域有效的調度。你就知道現在市政府還有理由可以修,但是他覺得要修的比較好,事業費修。"},{"start":15736.141,"end":15743.726,"text":"所以新竹市的焚化爐他把新竹縣250萬噸都拒絕了所以只收了150噸啦250噸變成只收150噸所以100噸的垃圾無處去變成堆積成山第三個你們掩埋場不當使用原本要當成戰制的掩埋場因為焚化爐處理不及而被迫大量接受垃圾以台中大理掩埋場為例"},{"start":15763.098,"end":15788.384,"text":"本來只負責掩埋焚化爐的底渣大理是本來是要埋底渣的偶爾配合綏修的時候、焚化爐綏修的時候暫時加入垃圾臺中有三座大型焚化廠但現在將焚化廠10%的處理量能都給了失業廢棄物所以現在有燒不完的垃圾遠遠不絕的進入掩埋場然後堆積了36萬公噸等待焚燒的民生垃圾"},{"start":15792.125,"end":15795.849,"text":"所以你們在大大的縮短了掩埋場的使用壽命而且最重要的是掩埋場我們已經走回頭路倒退路啊"},{"start":15811.224,"end":15824.671,"text":"在80年代台灣訂定了都市垃圾處理方案以掩埋為主要方式但是到了1991年我們就以改焚化為主掩埋為輔從埋垃圾轉變為埋焚化爐的灰飛的最終處理場址"},{"start":15830.114,"end":15845.12,"text":"那灰飛每年固定用掩埋15萬噸左右所以這空間本來就都很省的就很省著用就沒什麼搞現在現在你們走回頭路整個台灣的垃圾處理政策倒退囉然後呢進來的垃圾變成進入掩埋場然後你的終極策略你的精進策略是什麼部長你的精進策略是什麼掩埋打包"},{"start":15860.051,"end":15868.701,"text":"也埋副圖啊這不是掩埋這是什麼把掩埋當成最終處理了所以這不是倒退路那是什麼所以呢"},{"start":15871.294,"end":15889.205,"text":"在這種狀況裡面全台灣的一般廢掩埋量這五年來一般廢棄物的掩埋量的成長率百分之一百這五年我知道過去五年不是你啦但是我跟你講方向就這樣子你越來越多可以掩埋就掩埋"},{"start":15893.388,"end":15896.149,"text":"一般費幾乎從108年的10308公噸增加到112年的199574公噸增加的幅度將近100%是99%所以顯著的增加的掩埋場包括大理臺中大理的衛生掩埋場"},{"start":15915.399,"end":15919.702,"text":"他從108年的2747公噸增加到112年是12萬2700變成12萬3562公噸臺中大理衛生掩埋場掩埋的量這麼大而你衛福部提出的精進策略也是掩埋復土蓋埋蓋埋就好"},{"start":15937.403,"end":15961.264,"text":"然後呢,臺南的隆起隆起掩埋廠從108年才到本來掩埋量是623公噸到112年是9109公噸啦這是成長幾倍啊所以你們現在精進的策略也是鼓勵掩埋復土所以我們來看一下這個臺南社大拍的照片"},{"start":15962.588,"end":15962.608,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":15983.341,"end":15994.006,"text":"變成灰灰的附土然後用底紮再蓋上去灰灰垃圾底紮灰灰垃圾底紮對你說這樣環境風險環評是允許這樣子的嗎以後還要挖起來篩分那些有毒的陽塵對環境對工作人員的傷害對整個周遭的傷害要怎麼辦"},{"start":16009.445,"end":16012.687,"text":"這都種金屬耶 灰飛捏 底渣捏 你現在贊助垃圾這位而且底渣用底渣當成副土 這個叫副土底渣當副土 卻吸人啊 所以第一個部長目前這樣堆積的危機啊 你的主要的方式就精進的策略就掩埋副土"},{"start":16031.678,"end":16035.942,"text":"但是從這個數據來看每年進場的一般費逐年增加這樣的覆土這樣的掩埋這樣的蓋牌叫做徹底解決問題嗎第一個第二個針對事業廢棄物佔用公共焚化爐而真正的事業廢棄物處理的焚化爐卻有80萬噸的餘裕卻沒有燒這個問題你具體的改善措施是什麼"},{"start":16058.942,"end":16060.563,"text":"現在如果改善目前區域調度機制失效的問題,要怎麼樣更有效的跨區域合作?"},{"start":16069.434,"end":16084.697,"text":"你回答包委員第一個問題是這個只是暫時的我們必須說未來如果這個量能餘裕還是可以去做那不可能24做整備好了他還是要繼續燒事業廢棄物而事業廢棄物處理廠他還是繼續這麼貴然後呢也是還有餘裕可以處理但是就沒有人可以去燒三千到萬倍這就是問題啦要怎麼改觀"},{"start":16098.308,"end":16104.712,"text":"為什麼一般廢棄物逐年增加?量增加了這麼快啦為什麼?生活形態的改變生活形態的改變外國難道沒有嗎?外國也是一樣外國也是一樣?好那很好我問你這三題你沒有回答我繼續問你你知道台灣從1997年推動資源回收那個時候一推動資源回收人均垃圾10年裡面減少了20%"},{"start":16127.926,"end":16144.478,"text":"現在近年來垃圾量開始增加特別是經濟越發達像新竹縣市新竹市過去一年來人均廢棄物正是台灣全島第一名但是呢我們要講民生垃圾量比日本韓國新加坡還多你說生活形態的改變我們是亞洲發達國家裡面最高的"},{"start":16151.003,"end":16173.336,"text":"2022年平均人均生產1.32公斤日本新加坡都低於1公斤2018到2022年台灣的人均每日產出廢棄物增幅是16.81增加的是我們這四個亞洲發達國家裡面成長速度最快的連新加坡跟日本都是下降的幅度你說的生活形態改變紫色的是什麼你講給我聽我剛才有聽到你在尋答"},{"start":16178.055,"end":16189.43,"text":"你說的我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡我們的生活形態上改變哪裡是我們變他們沒有變的所以我們垃圾成長比他們還要高的"},{"start":16191.447,"end":16204.915,"text":"網購：有阿人請加波甘摩韓國甘摩日本甘摩Uber Eats 人請加波甘摩韓國甘摩日本甘摩人家很發達你認為垃圾成長是這種生活型態改變人家也是可是為什麼他們的垃圾人均產量是下降我們還在逐年增加你剛才講網購啊疫情啊外送啊人家沒有疫情嗎"},{"start":16220.869,"end":16229.652,"text":"亞洲日本韓國新加坡難道沒有網購嗎沒有外送嗎通通都有所以這不要拿這個來當藉口是什麼原因更不要講說啊一般這個進焚化爐的事業廢棄物你們講統計師真是有一部分事業廢棄物是來自餐廳小吃店夜市那餐廳小吃店夜市你要解決這個問題是什麼解決韓國怎麼解決韓國怎麼解決"},{"start":16252.708,"end":16275.542,"text":"你來看一下我們的資源回收政策執行不髒本來我們台灣早年在推動還取得一定的成效結果越來越不髒反觀韓國回收率現在是世界第二高連餅乾袋地毯台灣沒有在回收的吃餅乾大家吃那麼多糖果餅乾台灣沒有回收欸連家都能夠回收為什麼部長"},{"start":16278.7,"end":16289.571,"text":"而且維修前還要連塑膠瓶都要清洗乾淨資料標籤紙箱也要拆開整瓶去除標籤跟膠袋然後由社區管理員確認以後才能交給清潔隊帶走為什麼為什麼他做得到"},{"start":16295.047,"end":16311.187,"text":"這個就行政能力也有關係啊。你說的那些製造垃圾的人,他們也都有啊。你看這個袋子。你看我們的驗室裡面的事業費器有這個袋子。這個會分類嗎?這沒有分類。台灣連垃圾分類到現在都還在走回頭路。"},{"start":16316.066,"end":16330.439,"text":"我們非常粗略民眾還有一種不用分這麼細到時候親運都會混在一起為什麼什麼叫親運會混在一起台灣的民眾很認真的在分類然後看到我們的區公所是這樣子做的左手邊資源回收車右手邊垃圾車"},{"start":16335.339,"end":16341.77,"text":"公所把他們支援回收來的支援回收戶倒下去噴射車裡面啦 每天在我們家門口啦 在我們家門口的啦"},{"start":16347.759,"end":16350.961,"text":"這像話嗎地方政府代表這樣做像話嗎垃圾資源回收所有每個人民都好好的回收了那有的時候分類沒做好所以公所地方政府面對這種問題是直接把它倒下去噴射車直接燒啦"},{"start":16371.97,"end":16381.193,"text":"每天5點半夜做這件事所以你知道這個事情嗎部長?"},{"start":16381.193,"end":16386.395,"text":"直接把資源回收車的物品完全不分類倒進垃圾車而且不是只問到台北市 台北市也是這樣啦 我的助理又常常去卸財了啦你知道為什麼沒有作為?"},{"start":16399.929,"end":16410.704,"text":"部長,台灣這樣子人均廢棄物的產出量成為亞洲發達國家第一名而且成長的速度最快你覺得原因是什麼啦?"},{"start":16412.182,"end":16432.89,"text":"你剛才沒有回答啊那如果你沒有不知道原因你有沒有具體的計畫知道怎麼源頭減廢怎麼讓人均廢棄物的下降的目標要定在哪裡而且要對應的策略拿出來有效策略是什麼你不要跟我講說你怎麼數據失真啊這不是事實這個都是事實"},{"start":16433.55,"end":16449.555,"text":"第二 清潔隊回收的事業廢棄物要怎麼處理啦 韓國是怎麼處理 人家專用垃圾怎麼處理餐廳小吃店市場 外國 我們已經輸韓國也沒關係 你看人家怎麼處理啊 我們繼續這樣處理下去還不行的 然後韓國對垃圾分類的嚴格的要求和處罰機制 其實很有名的啦"},{"start":16458.134,"end":16476.301,"text":"那你知道地方政府彰化縣資源回收及處理分類項目指引現在他們彰化縣政府環保局做得很認真從電子發票巧拼到茶葉等五十幾種垃圾都教人家怎麼回收怎麼搭配所以彰化你知道彰化的垃圾減量多少嗎三成以上"},{"start":16479.1,"end":16502.874,"text":"兩三層除雨回收總量提高一倍支援回收物平均提升15%所以有沒有效政府有決心要做一定有效但是是你知道我們的除雨啊大家都在丟除雨啊到最後地方政府給它丟到焚化爐裡面我們認真的除雨拿去除雨桶丟結果地方政府到最後丟到焚化爐裡面"},{"start":16511.634,"end":16528.37,"text":"中央到底有什麼政策手段可以讓彰化的經驗可以複製出去韓國回收率這麼好能夠回收台灣沒有回收的品項你有沒有考慮要增加回收的品項的範圍能不能向他國來學習最後地方清潔隊這樣的做法"},{"start":16529.831,"end":16539.855,"text":"嚴重的影響了民眾分類的意願和信心我這麼認真就要分類還要你把牌子放在分色車要做笑的我這麼認真就要做廚餘你搞不好你也是把牌子放下去燒所以你們就是上行下效嘛環境部對這個有什麼做法你還說你知道那你具體的政策來看你要怎麼監督和改善清潔隊的回收作業呢"},{"start":16558.22,"end":16563.701,"text":"這樣都在這裡點點就好了 不用回答 不用啦 找時間啦 他也不知道要怎麼做啦 有啦 有啦 張化的我們都全省一起來關注 都不知道耶 處理也不知道耶 事業費稅務量能喔 遠遠大過於你把它拖下去"},{"start":16579.205,"end":16579.405,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝林主委"},{"start":16605.3,"end":16614.509,"text":"介紹謝依鳳委員、謝依鳳委員、謝依鳳委員不在、牛喜廷委員質詢。戲文簽啊。好,謝謝主席啊。這個彭副總有請。"},{"start":16625.714,"end":16642.322,"text":"委員好這我們長話短說啦這個今天當然大部分的重點會放在就是說比如說我們如何增加焚化爐的量能啊如何處理這個長期的比如說桃園有所謂的垃圾打包嘛那其實到現在都沒有辦法被好好處理所以這都是大的事情"},{"start":16642.802,"end":16661.717,"text":"那我想很多委員這地方都有所關注我們就不再多言但是本期今天要提的是相對小但是它同樣很重要的事情我們現在很多地方因為垃圾不落地的政策所以到最後垃圾車收完了垃圾都要去焚化爐對不對那離焚化爐近的地方可能沒有這樣大的問題可是像有些行政區離焚化爐非常遠所以說"},{"start":16664.019,"end":16690.402,"text":"如果說我要把垃圾收完之後就送到焚化爐去處理那可能會造成所謂的垃圾裸露堆跟垃圾車安排的路線調度出現了很大的一個困難所以出現了所謂的垃圾轉運站這樣子的一個臨時設施那你的報告裡面雖然它比例不高可是它還是一個必須被處理的問題而且我覺得比起這些大的長年以來累積的共業的問題你要處理這些小的問題其實比較容易一些啦"},{"start":16690.882,"end":16715.121,"text":"以本期的選區歸山為例我們的這個大埔垃圾轉運站放在那邊20幾年了它也是一個小的供業那現在麻煩啊就是說地方開始發展起來啦因為是露天的轉運啊所以這個臭味就造成了空氣污染旁邊剛好又是重化區每天大家都在陳情抗議對不對那環保局找地頭昏腦脹那我們在這個過程中當然也希望可以找到一個好的解方嘛那最後幾個討論的結果啦"},{"start":16718.023,"end":16732.229,"text":"我找到了新的地方結果還是被罵我新的地方這個環保局已經答應說我們要做空污防治設施的它是室內轉運減量都做了但還是被罵為什麼因為不管怎麼樣垃圾轉運站它就是個零幣設施部長你同意我這樣說法對不對"},{"start":16733.229,"end":16750.976,"text":"這是大家的習慣啦但是我們要改變一下對這觀念嘛對不對那這觀念確實會影響政策的推動那其實我們在思考說這轉運站退場的過程中其實也不是沒有別的想法比如說我歸山的離中壢的焚化爐以桃園來講它確實距離很遠可是我離巴黎的焚化爐很近啊"},{"start":16751.696,"end":16777.695,"text":"我距離很快啊可是問題是一旦涉及到跨區的區域聯防的時候當然各縣市政府有自己的本位嘛也就是說那沒辦法我連自己的事情都不一定處理得完不一定有辦法處理何況我還要承載你這個東西我承載的時候地方會不會有民怨所以我覺得把跨區的區域聯防的機制設計起來其實很重要這我跟你的前任其實也在這個地方討論過那今天你新上任我論和也要把這個概念再講一次"},{"start":16778.636,"end":16779.657,"text":"你們有沒有做相關的盤點?"},{"start":16806.438,"end":16809.26,"text":"我們希望看到的所謂區域聯盟機制是中央有所鼓勵"},{"start":16835.66,"end":16851.992,"text":"也就是說我做了區域聯防增加了垃圾處理的效率他其實有完成你中央的大的政策目標那我願意響應這樣是用這樣方法做的請問他得到什麼有沒有好處比如說政策更多的利多啊專案的補貼啊或者是中央在哪些地方的一些特別的支持有沒有一些這樣的機制的設計讓這件事情變得有可能"},{"start":16854.654,"end":16878.089,"text":"因為現在講說我們要把垃圾如果要拜託新北幫忙處理這樣我們可以在不找新的地方的情況下處理垃圾轉運的問題可是主力放在那個地方不好談那我們中央有沒有什麼政策的誘因讓他從不可能談變成可能談甚至有機會解決好委員我們來設計一下好不好給我們一點點時間我們去到地方來處理好不好這我希望中央可以針對區域聯防的部分給予實質的政策鼓勵啦"},{"start":16878.769,"end":16887.402,"text":"好不好那其他垃圾減量當然該做的就做我相信只要方向對也合理大家也都會給予支持啦希望部長費一點心思在這個小的題目上面好嗎OK好謝謝"},{"start":16897.671,"end":16915.373,"text":"繼續我們請耐斯堡委員、耐斯堡委員、耐斯堡委員不在陳庭輝委員、陳庭輝委員、陳庭輝委員不在高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在"},{"start":16918.291,"end":16941.82,"text":"委員蘇巧．本日會議行答全部結束委員蘇巧慧．林建祺．牛喜廷．謝一鳳等提出書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定第一報告及行答完畢"},{"start":16943.137,"end":16970.773,"text":"第2委員執行未及答覆或請補充資料者．請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆．委員另要求其限則從其所定本日會議到此結束現在休息 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歡迎歐"},{"start":2033.089,"end":2058.346,"text":"台南市政府財政稅務局的陳家慶陳專委歡迎高雄市政府財政局的李仲俊李專委歡迎新竹縣政府財政處的范蕙琦副處長苗栗縣政府財政處的王淑欣副處長"},{"start":2064.204,"end":2080.942,"text":"南投縣政府財政處林靜娟副處長張化縣政府財政處王淑君科長雲林縣政府財政處張志猛副處長"},{"start":2083.496,"end":2109.047,"text":"嘉義縣財政稅務局陳小玲陳科長屏東縣政府財稅局莊美英副局長宜蘭縣政府財政稅務局李品賢科員歡迎花蓮縣政府財政處曾章恩科長"},{"start":2112.458,"end":2138.486,"text":"臺東縣政府財政及經濟發展處葉振鶴 葉副處長澎湖縣政府財政處李振聰 李副處長金門縣政府財政處陳國廷 處長 歡迎連江縣政府財政稅務局張壽民 科長基隆市政府財政處李佩芳 科長"},{"start":2141.064,"end":2167.375,"text":"新竹市政府財政處黃襄嶺副處長嘉義市政府財政稅務局的張孟華科長那我們又來了兩位專家學者中興大學國家政策研究所助理教授紀和鈞紀教授政治大學財政學系羅光達羅教授歡迎那"},{"start":2169.632,"end":2196.024,"text":"我看到我們今天各地縣市政府來的代表全道這個會期我們的目標就是把財政收支修法通過如果大家有相關意見今天我們請專家協會發表意見然後如果各個地方政府有什麼相關意見歡迎回去反映給你們各地的選區的立委或是把相關意見也可以送到我們這邊來這個"},{"start":2199.178,"end":2226.383,"text":"我們現在開始要發言我們先講一下這個發言的一些規則這個議會發言每一位我們兩位兩位學者專家然後就請一位因為我們立法委員會陸陸續續來登記發言兩位學者專家發言結束後我們會邀請一位立法委員發言然後每一位學者的發言時間8分鐘結束前1分鐘我們會按您提醒那"},{"start":2228.426,"end":2242.825,"text":"我們立委的發言時間5分鐘了那全部發言完畢後我們再請行政機關就業管的權責整體來回應那我們先請第一位專家學者蔡群立蔡教授 謝謝"},{"start":2254.679,"end":2275.454,"text":"那各地方的這個財政處的相關官員上回的這個公聽會有請大家發表意見但是如果今天大家還有意見要表達我們也是表示歡迎謝謝等到這個專家學者立法委員發言完畢如果各地方政府有什麼意見我們歡迎各位表示意見謝謝"},{"start":2280.329,"end":2294.201,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位縣親大家好那接下來由我來就是來報告一下就是說我對於財政收支劃分法是我要修正那我先講一下現況那目前大家所關心的議題包括就是說所謂的這個"},{"start":2295.902,"end":2299.104,"text":"財政失衡,希望透過統籌款分配額度增加,增加地方資源,達成有權益的保障。縣市政府對付出的稅收貢獻與獲得統籌款分配款的不對稱問題,"},{"start":2318.374,"end":2319.014,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":2338.24,"end":2338.56,"text":"公聽會議主席"},{"start":2366.876,"end":2383.53,"text":"首先我想第一點的話我是先從中央政府的話稅出的項目的觀點來分析那因為我想中央政府的一個稅出的話大概每年都有9項那以1、2年來看的話社會福利的話在所謂的這個稅出的預算總支出的話"},{"start":2384.37,"end":2391.714,"text":"有26.3%那教育科技文化18.2%然後經濟發展17.8%然後國防支出14.6%這四個比例就已經佔了77%那其中這幾個項目都是人民相當關心的一個支出那比如說社會福利的話包括運營假補貼勞工勞工保險、就業保險或者是職災保險、老農福利津貼"},{"start":2411.184,"end":2432.064,"text":"教育科學文化支出﹐包括對於國立高中補助﹐或者是人才培育補助特別經濟的所謂的發展支出﹐包括離島的建設﹐然後所謂社會住宅﹐新建社會住宅補貼﹐穩定供電的一個建設﹐還有所謂的撥補農業的天然災害補助"},{"start":2435.507,"end":2437.508,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":2452.495,"end":2452.515,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2482.245,"end":2511.425,"text":"那再來的話是從這個圖表的話我想要來關心一下地方財政是否失衡那從這個104年到112年來看的話就只有105年跟107年的話所謂的這個財政地方財政有短處其他的話地方政府的這個都是剩餘的那這邊的話這最後一個欄位的話我想要看的是地方政府的一個自籌財源在地方政府的一個稅出的比例"},{"start":2512.005,"end":2512.885,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":2534.814,"end":2535.475,"text":"財政公聽委員"},{"start":2550.923,"end":2575.978,"text":"政府會按照地方制度的第三章地方自治項目來執行也就是發揮地方的優勢能夠促進當地的地方的一個發展不過如果我們從中央的這個角度12年我來看一下中央政府的一個總預算編列的第二點要項的話當時是12年的話中央是重視加速所謂的公共建設投資等等就是有包括很多的公共建設"},{"start":2576.778,"end":2602.949,"text":"所以換言之這個從地方角度中央跟地方他的目標的話還是在規劃的時候是有所不一樣的所以說從基於這樣子的話我覺得就是說如果中央跟地方要執行所謂的財化法如果要有所改變的時候可能還是必須要存有明確的一個劃分跟規範這也因此隱含的就是說財化法如果要修正的話地方制度跟行政法同時也要一併修正要完整的配套措施的話"},{"start":2605.93,"end":2606.09,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":2629.795,"end":2635.238,"text":"稅客收入85.1%經濟活動跟勞動市場所課徵的稅收是國家運作最大的來源如果說今天中央跟所謂的這個地方的財源額度有所改變的話換言之沒有比較強大的基礎建設總體建設的話那可能相對來講的話國家整體的課稅稅收的話"},{"start":2655.506,"end":2655.706,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2671.551,"end":2671.811,"text":"財政收支劃分"},{"start":2690.809,"end":2711.673,"text":"衡量變化以後然後來做修正第4點的話我想我再從這幾個表這幾個表的話是考慮到所謂的地方政府12年的話就是有兩個縣市它是有短促的那你可以看到縣市政府的話這幾個縣市政府的話自從財源的一個算出的比例是從10%變成到60%範圍相當的廣"},{"start":2716.434,"end":2716.594,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2737.119,"end":2737.199,"text":"主席"},{"start":2766.806,"end":2776.014,"text":"主席在座各位先進大家好今天很高興來這邊分享一下我對於財政收支劃分法的一些看法"},{"start":2793.7,"end":2821.869,"text":"那其實要談到財政收支劃分的話呢其實就是大概就是關於財政的分權跟財政的集權不過這兩個東西當然就不是全有或全無它比較像是光譜的分配那就是看我們比較趨近於光譜的哪一端那這個東西當然就會取決於國家的財政的體制比方說像聯邦制的國家像美國、加拿大、德國這些國家的話它是因為它是分權制的國家所以可以看得出來它的中央預算的比例呢其實大概是在五六十"},{"start":2822.589,"end":2822.709,"text":"主席"},{"start":2850.996,"end":2852.617,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":2875.581,"end":2898.731,"text":"同樣的如果說納稅者知道他要付出的跟他從裡面得到的這個收益他有所連結的話那政府就必須要對於這個支出要更有所效率才行所以這就是我說支出要有效率在學理上面的話就是說稅收跟支出要做緊密的連結那這樣的話就像我簡報上面講的他可以降低財政換血或者是免費午餐的這種情況"},{"start":2902.021,"end":2922.728,"text":"如果從這個觀點來看的話要達到我們剛剛講的支出跟稅收能夠充分的連結其實最理想的話就是用財政能夠充分的支出這也就是為什麼最近世界各國都會趨向於地方的分權因為這樣的話就像我剛剛講會符合支出的效率原則但是地方的分權能夠用在我們這邊嗎我們來看一下現況"},{"start":2925.693,"end":2951.843,"text":"現況的話我們這邊的話其實每一個地方的貧富差異很大如果你要用稅收分層的話其實你會擴大現有的差距所以在現有的基礎上這條路看起來是有些困難的那另外一個如果說你要讓地方有權利去決定稅率的話除了現在的其實現在很多稅地方其實是有辦法去決定它的時效稅率的這個當然我就不細提了"},{"start":2952.463,"end":2980.132,"text":"但問題就在於說因為地方幅員太小所以它的稅基啊流動性都很大所以很難常常會產生租稅競爭的情況所以一個理想的情況是說如果你真的要達到充分的自主的話那必須要縣市重新整併那能夠幅員夠大那你要用分權用分層的話呢大概各區也不會差太多這樣才有辦法但問題是這個做得到嗎我個人是覺得這個很難"},{"start":2981.392,"end":2981.993,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3001.377,"end":3019.415,"text":"是比較了解當地的需求可是他缺點的話就是我剛剛說的稅收跟支出的連結比較薄弱因為他拿到這些錢都不是他自己課的稅那所以呢這個花起來他就比較沒有痛感那我當然不是說他沒有效率但我現在是在講"},{"start":3020.196,"end":3020.356,"text":"主席"},{"start":3039.11,"end":3039.51,"text":"隨時分配政府支出趨勢"},{"start":3069.31,"end":3093.308,"text":"還有幾點我覺得中央還是得保留相當程度的稅收來因應一些全球化的挑戰比方說除了疫情我剛剛提到之外像全球暖化的議題這個也必須要由中央來應付地方對這一個方面我看是力有未待那另外一個大家都知道世界是平的也就是說我們現在其實"},{"start":3094.599,"end":3095.78,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":3115.054,"end":3137.512,"text":"通常也是由中央來做會比較合適所以從這些觀點裡面我覺得中央勢必還是要保留相當程度的預算然後來因應它的挑戰那接下來我們來看一下水平分配水平分配的話我覺得如果按照現有的話我一直覺得它有兩個很大的問題第一個的話就是說"},{"start":3138.814,"end":3153.712,"text":"他就是一個這麼大的池一個這麼大的鋪可是你在分配的時候有些時候有些項目你是要考慮到效率但有些時候你要考慮到地方之間的公平但是我們非常清楚效率跟公平的目標其實是相衝突的所以怎麼辦我會覺得說可能"},{"start":3154.833,"end":3156.916,"text":"今天大家各個地方要來競逐這些財源"},{"start":3173.516,"end":3198.844,"text":"那這個就好像是大家都要去公海上捕撈這些魚那這個東西就會產生我們非常清楚的共有財的悲劇也就是大家都去搶到最後比如說公海上的魚就會產生過度捕撈的現象大家都要來競逐這些經費那可能你就會發生這個經費會需求過多的問題那有什麼解方呢在學體上解方"},{"start":3199.764,"end":3199.884,"text":"謝謝賴教授"},{"start":3231.636,"end":3231.878,"text":"黃珊珊委員"},{"start":3241.725,"end":3261.376,"text":"謝謝主席,謝謝今天參與的所有的學者專家以及政府的部門財政收支發言法在上個會期我們已經討論過非常多次而且最重要的是我們通過了臨時提案要求財政部要在這個會期開議前提出財政收支劃分法的草案版本"},{"start":3262.176,"end":3277.646,"text":"但是我們9月份的時候看到財政部的公文說現在呢白話穩講就是中央還沒有辦法處理因為地方政府還在互相搶餅不知道要釋出多少錢所以沒有辦法提出草案"},{"start":3278.306,"end":3305.228,"text":"我覺得這個論點跟這個做法對於立法院來說是相當的不負責任也就是說這件事情已經討論多時25年沒有修正我想非常多的專家學者都清楚那地方政府在這麼多年中間碰到的問題是一樣的問題就是我們的公視我們的分配完全是靠中央的養中央的鼻息所以中央我們"},{"start":3306.169,"end":3322.494,"text":"民眾黨提出的版本其實非常的清楚第一不要影響中央的正式運作因為這幾年平均的相關中央剩餘的執行預算之後的稅金剩餘大概都是兩千多億所以我們希望再不影響正式運作的前提之下釋出部分的財源"},{"start":3323.414,"end":3346.979,"text":"所以我們提出的版本清楚不會影響到中央正式運作第二個我們希望能夠保障地方政府在新法新制通過之後不低於現在它的相關分配稅額這兩個原則的情況之下我們訂出了一個所謂的分配公式由將來成立統籌分配稅款的委員會來辦理這件事情"},{"start":3347.939,"end":3363.337,"text":"內容其實對財政部都是相當有利的但是我們很遺憾的是到現在為止財政部他們既然有分配公示既然有分配方法但是不願意提出自己的版本這一點我覺得很奇怪我們是要把你現在的方法讓你能夠入法"},{"start":3365.479,"end":3365.939,"text":"提供相關的意見"},{"start":3387.353,"end":3413.821,"text":"這兩個原則是我們的版本很清楚的但是我們也不希望提出來的版本會造成中央一下子拿個五六千億這樣的狀況所以我們的版本非常的中庸我希望在這個接下去的這個會期剛剛昭偉也說了這個會期會討論甚至希望能夠通過所以我希望財政部不要再繼續假裝沒看見你們不提版本將來通過的就會是立法院的版本"},{"start":3414.361,"end":3441.598,"text":"通過立法院的版本的時候我不希望再造成所謂說我們沒有行政院沒有版本的情況下說國會不讓你們討論這件事情我希望不要再發生在這一次所以謝謝專委在現在就開了公聽會接下去我相信財政委員會會非常負責任的來討論有關財化法剛剛所專家學者所提出的每一個見解包括怎麼分配隨時分配"},{"start":3442.778,"end":3463.94,"text":"水平分配這些公平的原則還有讓地方政府參與的機會我想每個地方政府都有自己的苦水要吐每一個單位他們都認為說雖然現在政府財政不錯所以看起來他們的錢沒有變少而且每年的分配還增加但是我們希望的是把這個制度跟精神落實在法律的文字裡面"},{"start":3464.44,"end":3464.68,"text":"財政部委員"},{"start":3482.586,"end":3504.153,"text":"我們的版本大概增加2700億對地方只會多不會少不會影響中央的正式運作另外一個就是我們希望能夠地方政府分配要同仇分配稅款跟一般補助款的加總金額不低於現況這兩個原則的情況之下其實財政部你有很好的方法去討論所謂的水平分配的指標"},{"start":3504.973,"end":3505.113,"text":"以上"},{"start":3534.831,"end":3535.692,"text":"財政部委員"},{"start":3564.811,"end":3565.051,"text":"財政部議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3600.593,"end":3601.217,"text":"簡報裡可以操作好 謝謝"},{"start":3603.45,"end":3632.418,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位專家學者大家好還有這個地方政府的代表大家好今天很高興能夠來參加這個財化法的修法的公聽會那我因為上個禮拜有兩天那個那個颱風假所以我以為這個沒有要召開所以我就沒有按時的交出我的powerpoint那我趁著週末做了一下簡單的請大家稍微看一下"},{"start":3637.614,"end":3662.026,"text":"這個是我在財政部的網站上面找到的我們看一下我們在112年的這個負稅收入的變動因為在講財化法的這個修法的過程中其實一直有一個爭議就是說到底中央是不是集權了又集錢所以我們可能要先來問一下說到底中央拿了多少錢那還有就是我們"},{"start":3662.586,"end":3662.706,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3681.536,"end":3683.297,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":3710.134,"end":3729.665,"text":"他增加了多少?他相對111年增加了280億而且他的增減增加幅度是5.1%其實是很高的而且我們其實也要看一個很特別的是我們在1996年修法的時候增加了一個稅叫做證券交易稅就是證交稅納進了國稅裡面"},{"start":3732.307,"end":3742.031,"text":"那大家看看這幾年國家的財政比較好很大程度跟我們的這個我們的證券交易市場的活絡化有很大的關係"},{"start":3744.902,"end":3749.065,"text":"這也是我上財政部的112年財政統計希望財政部的眾多部長還有各位長官不要生氣大家看一下如果我們按各級政府稅入淨額按政府別來分我們看一下這個最下面"},{"start":3768.951,"end":3770.573,"text":"112年中央政府的整個結構比佔了74.8%直轄市政府是18.1%縣市政府只佔5.4%"},{"start":3788.11,"end":3809.862,"text":"5.4那鄉鎮市區公所只有1.8所以確實這個證明就是說我們從民國因為我們從民國89年到現在足足24、5年的情況之下確實大部分原來是歸省的這個部分的錢劃歸給的中央了"},{"start":3810.862,"end":3833.974,"text":"畫歸了中央 那麼當時在做這個討論的時候其實就有一個問題就是 它明明是地方稅啊 為什麼你把它畫給中央當時我記得我有問過一些當時參與地質法的修法還有財化法修法的一些老師們 這個我的老師們他們當時的講法是說 因為當時地方針對這個事情爭執不休所以先畫給中央 將來再慢慢還給地方"},{"start":3835.715,"end":3838.521,"text":"現在25年了,四分之一世紀了,我們該還給地方了"},{"start":3842.008,"end":3871.588,"text":"好 那麼我因為這個本身對財政法還有地制法比較有興趣所以有在耕耘這一塊啦那我一直認為如果我們從這個比較法的角度來看中央跟地方的財政劃分原則在配合我國的憲政制度的話國稅跟地方稅的劃分是中央立法且執行事項換句話說這件事情是絕對的法律保留是立法院的責任啊"},{"start":3872.648,"end":3895.063,"text":"立法院的責任,立法院要去做,為什麼?憲法107條你講啦這個是中央跟地方的最大的一個權限劃分之一那麼你應該要做,立法院有義務要做已經玩了25年了,該做了那第二個就是我們大法官釋字550號這個解釋我想大家可能都記憶比較沒有那麼深刻了"},{"start":3896.264,"end":3922.591,"text":"稍微提醒大家講那個就是有關於健保案當年健保案的那個那個釋憲案當時大法官特別講說地方自治權裡面有一個核心叫做財政自主權所以那個大法官還講了說有些東西是不可以叫地方編的像什麼呢不可以幫地方編預算編支出不可以把這個國防外交這相關的非地方私事事務叫地方出錢但是大法官"},{"start":3923.351,"end":3939.395,"text":"沒有想過是地方可能他沒有錢的時候他根本沒有錢的時候你沒有什麼財政自主的那個可能性啊再來是什麼就是區域發展均衡原則這個是我們在講財政法一個很重要而且我們財化法30條第一項前段跟地制法69條69條第一項已經明白講了區域發展要均衡所以這個是中央的責任這不是地方的責任啊怎麼會一直覺得說啊這個這個跟"},{"start":3951.718,"end":3954.159,"text":"中央跟地方要夥伴關係要事前的協商機制可是我們看得出來我們從來沒有事前協商嗎從來都沒有"},{"start":3976.075,"end":3999.208,"text":"這個就是一個不好的惡性循環中央主導一切,地方區域發展不均富者越富,窮者越窮仰望中央給錢,然後中央全錢在手然後又轉過來,中央主導一切,地方區域發展不均就是這樣的一個無限輪迴其實對於我們非六都以外的民眾來講其實是不公平的"},{"start":4001.269,"end":4027.035,"text":"這個就是最新的也是財政部的中央統籌分配款的款項也是最近我們在9月3號的時候有個新聞就講說臺北市都突破了700億然後有些縣市很窮那為什麼會這樣這也是我們為什麼要修財化法的一個很重要的概念那麼我的修法建議總共有兩個方案提供大家做參考第一個方案是什麼就是把"},{"start":4028.035,"end":4034.176,"text":"只修這個營業稅就是那個40%那個直接100%了啦因為那本來就省的稅嘛然後另外什麼就是遺產稅跟贈與稅廢掉那個給鄉鎮市而是給縣為什麼因為怎麼會直接給了鄉鎮市然後縣拿不到半毛錢這個是很特別的一個規定"},{"start":4051.3,"end":4054.382,"text":"2.營業稅直接回歸地方稅學習民國77年原來財劃法的精神就是將直轄市營業稅的部分比例劃入中央統回分立法因為民國77年的時候那個時候講說直轄市的營業稅50%要劃給省"},{"start":4080.296,"end":4092.298,"text":"要劃到省﹑就中央普通分法劃給省喔為什麼平衡彼此啊不好意思我最後講個這個就不好意思這個時間不夠這個我有我的那個powerpoint在提供給各位分享這個是因為我們這個提綱上面有講要講中央跟地方的這夥伴關係所以我引介這個法國的地方財政委員會這個是一個正式的組織放在法國的地方自治法典裡面剛才前面的專家學員都講說先講"},{"start":4109.321,"end":4109.921,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":4135.459,"end":4150.749,"text":"要把責任劃給地方的時候那麼這個時候要大家現在考慮說到底地方要花多少錢那麼他的成員大家看一下他的成員有眾議員有參議員有大區議長聯合會的議長代表有審議會議長聯合會的四位代表有什麼有他們那種區域行政法人的聯合會的七位代表"},{"start":4160.416,"end":4163.697,"text":"鄉鎮市長聯合會派15位市長代表而且內政部長派11位國家代表所以總共有32名而且他們的主席長期來都是地方自治團體的不管是市長或者大區議會的議長來擔任這個委員會的主席所以在每次修法之前都由大家先好好討論一下再來進行修法這個是我的一些簡單的建議 謝謝"},{"start":4191.816,"end":4205.333,"text":"我們謝謝紀教授雖然有颱風,我們修法還是風雨無阻接著我們請政大財政系的劉光達羅教授"},{"start":4215.948,"end":4243.459,"text":"主席各位委員還有在座的部會還有地方的長官還有專業學者大家早安大家好我是政治大學財政學系羅光達今天非常高興有這個機會非常榮幸在這裡分享一下我對財劃法劃分的一些初步的一個看法這個在學校教書教久了所以說我還是習慣先把這個問題跟現況稍微說明一下然後再根據這樣的情況再提出我自己的看法以及為什麼我們先來看一下"},{"start":4253.634,"end":4267.839,"text":"那目前來說的話呢最大的一個問題其實大家都非常有共識就是時空背景已經跟過去不太一樣那在民國這個88年1999年的時候呢因為金省或我們講的動省的關係呢原本的我們的這個地方跟中央的這種結構已經大為的轉變從過去的這個2都22縣到現在的6都16縣所以整個政府的結構已經很不一樣"},{"start":4275.962,"end":4276.623,"text":"租稅結構大幅改變原本省稅、地方稅、營業稅目前歸於國稅"},{"start":4303.722,"end":4325.017,"text":"財政部非常肯定財政部在過去幾年的租稅改革上所得稅增加非常多但是增加的部分還是國稅不過我們等一下看一下財化法雖然稅機稅收增加但是因為它上有上限造成我們雖然增加了但是可以分的金額上還是有一些的限額"},{"start":4325.797,"end":4328.34,"text":"國際上各層級補助款分成統籌分配、補助、協助、分層統籌分配下級政府得到的稅收上級政府根據下級政府的財政狀況統籌加以分配"},{"start":4345.159,"end":4361.207,"text":"補助跟協助大概就是補助款的一個概念當然補助大概就是上級政府對下級政府協助上面來說的話就是比較好的下級政府反而會支持上級政府分成共享稅的概念在中央跟地方"},{"start":4361.727,"end":4383.114,"text":"共同針對某一個稅務來分享這樣的稅收目前來說的話我們台灣來說話最主要是統籌分配稅款補助款跟稅收分成的制度統籌分配稅款其實這個制度大家都知道不過我用這個表格來說明一下我們大概會分成三個階段可以去做這樣的分配第一個我們大概用財劃法的一個分配的比例94%普通的6%為特別"},{"start":4386.155,"end":4387.656,"text":"分配辦法分配直轄市、縣市、鄉鎮市根據公視分配這樣制度之下問題就會產生為什麼是這個比例為什麼是這個公視為什麼要這樣分配"},{"start":4403.19,"end":4421.446,"text":"這個就是我們目前大家在爭議的一個目的另外我們在這個統籌分配稅款當中等下我會說應該要以國稅為主但是我們目前會有一個地方稅也就是土地增值稅在縣市政府的20%也納入到我們這個這樣子的一個統籌分配稅款的一個比例當中"},{"start":4424.75,"end":4443.408,"text":"中央統籌分配稅款有縣市、縣市根據基準財政需求、基本財政收入、相關定義、相關辦法、還有所謂的鄉鎮市所以我們一套的統籌分配稅款當中有中央、縣市跟鄉鎮市所以在比例上或公視上來說就會非常非常複雜"},{"start":4444.429,"end":4444.509,"text":"稅收分層"},{"start":4461.93,"end":4462.27,"text":"國稅分給地方,縣稅分給鄉鎮市"},{"start":4480.819,"end":4486.522,"text":"統統分配稅跟稅收分層在既定的稅收之下沒有考量下級政府的收支狀況統統分配稅款跟補助款還有一些法律上面或是位階上面的關係我這邊提供相關的書面資料供大家參考"},{"start":4503.269,"end":4529.108,"text":"因為時間的關係,我就直接的來看一下說我個人的一個淺見其實在政策設計上面來說的話,我們看一下目前的統計分配稅款來說我自己認為它是一個換寡又換軍的一個問題,但是要誰先誰後不過在釐清這個問題之前,我們要先來看一下說統計分配稅款,稅收分成跟補儲款它的性質跟目的上面有什麼相同跟不同的地方"},{"start":4529.788,"end":4555.311,"text":"對我來說,統統分分稅款跟稅從分層是來解決不足的問題那補助款,因為它可能有專案性的它有計劃性的,它可以來解決不均的問題那不足跟不均呢,其實還是不同的那不足,我認為應該要先滿足基本的各縣市基本的財政需求我們一般生活在這個社會上面基本的食衣住行娛樂必須要受到保障"},{"start":4555.771,"end":4556.151,"text":"財政上的努力財政上的需要"},{"start":4576.94,"end":4580.283,"text":"分配公式必須要簡化與一致性我們先來解決不足的問題再來考慮不均的現象"},{"start":4597.979,"end":4624.087,"text":"既然這樣子的概念出現之後我建議在統籌分配稅款當中主要解決是因為不足的問題所以應該要以國稅為主我建議納入統籌分配稅款的國稅和它的比例相對來說原本屬於地方稅的營業稅那個比例可以適度的大幅的提高第二個在財政部的努力之下我們所得稅優化了稅收增加的比較明顯其實相對的比重也可以提高"},{"start":4625.969,"end":4629.495,"text":"統統分配契約款解決所有地方政府的基本財政不足"},{"start":4641.626,"end":4657.662,"text":"公說公有理 婆說婆有理人口重要 面積重要 農業縣市重要 海防長度重要我們就讓所有的地方政府按照他所提的最有力的指標納入我們的公視假設22個縣市都認為人口很重要"},{"start":4658.263,"end":4658.563,"text":"相同是甚麼?"},{"start":4673.976,"end":4675.137,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":4694.668,"end":4723.288,"text":"另外除了解決這個我們講的基本財政需求之外剛剛那個我認為是青行獎學金但是我覺得要讓地方政府有一定的優秀獎學金你必須要讓他說你不能靠爸爸媽媽你不能當躺平族給一定的優良的獎學金既然是獎學金財政部可以訂定審查標準但是對於直轄市你是比較好的經濟條件比較好你的甲組的比賽一定能要求一定要高於個縣市政府的這樣子的比賽那最後"},{"start":4724.068,"end":4724.748,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":4739.275,"end":4762.171,"text":"分給下級的比率可以提高特別是我剛剛講的國稅的部分統州分配稅款應該是國稅我們地方稅的土政稅我建議改成所謂稅收分層那新增可能的稅員部分的營業稅或部分的營所稅也許是一個考量的方向不妨暫居大家時間謝謝以上是我的一個意見非常謝謝我們羅教授謝謝接著我們請賴世寶賴委員"},{"start":4779.975,"end":4795.53,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進首先要肯定我們主席要開始關心牌我們的財化法這個很好的開始另一方面我覺得我們的主席宅心仁厚部長感謝他"},{"start":4799.048,"end":4810.792,"text":"今天的公聽會已經開過一次了不是沒有開過再給你開一次就是給你拖時間所以第二個我就要公開譴責我們的總部長將立法院的決議視如我們上個會期就做了決定了決議通過了在這個會期開始之前要把財政部版本送過來到現在呢什麼都沒有"},{"start":4829.656,"end":4839.001,"text":"藐視國會：藐視財委會：沒有事如此啊怎麼會這個樣子呢你們也答應的那時候在這裡講來講去最後你們答應的在這個會期開始要提出來啊版本在哪裡版本在哪裡通通都沒有找了國務署來跟我講胡說八道一通啊"},{"start":4856.351,"end":4859.692,"text":"跟以前講的一樣 因為各縣市之間擺不平你就是希望擺不平啦你們就是101個檔案財政部都現在為止還是講我們現在給各縣市的補助款都增加啦他們的增加 這個增加 那個增加對不起 那是based on什麼立即於什麼 立即於你給錢就是當皇帝的思想"},{"start":4885.367,"end":4889.869,"text":"賴清德已經把自己當皇帝在運錯了結果我們財政部一樣我出了這個版本跟主席報告不要等版本了沒有版本了我們拜託下一次你再當領主主席就開始審了就開始審了一定一定就開始審了也沒有規定說一定要等你們版本"},{"start":4915.199,"end":4919.182,"text":"只有你們太客氣放福氣喔吃定立法院喔這裡面都很簡單嘛垂直分配 水質分配垂直 你看多少幾千億給地方政府你說現在都有 可是現在是什麼現在是你憐憫他們啦給錢啦 你是安頂制啦 安擠制啦"},{"start":4943.852,"end":4964.91,"text":"你用的是什麼 立法規定我的版本剝3000億給地方政府地方政府要怎麼分 再去分你們現在就用地方政府擺不平 然後呢 就偷莊部長 請你記住一件事情當初的屯房稅 我們有幾個版本十幾個版本啦你又講一百個理由 不可以審啦"},{"start":4969.125,"end":4974.207,"text":"賴清德一聲立下為了配合選舉賴清德一聲立下你這不是過了嗎所以你的部長可以一直做到現在就這樣子配合賴清德總統選了他的屯門是一聲立下你就給他通過了啊我們在那裡十幾個版本搞這麼久不可以審就不可以審而且那時候民進黨人多"},{"start":4996.226,"end":4999.688,"text":"我以為表決會輸 就這樣子 欸 就過了難道賴清德學長總統 莊協宇沒有功勞嗎 功勞很大你看那些部會首長 留任不多啊莊部長是其中一個啊 為什麼 配合賴清德啊很悲哀啊 莊部長"},{"start":5018.922,"end":5028.909,"text":"那這裡要專業啊 你不要只有政治啊政治 可以考慮政治 但是應該第二線你要摸摸自己的良心啊你在 最少最少 你在上個會期你答應啊你答應啊 你要提出來為什麼這版本在那裡沒有版本啊坑坑如也啊這麼好意思在這裡沒關係"},{"start":5048.68,"end":5054.808,"text":"我們總統選總統會審討總統對於已經太客氣了太客氣了把客氣當福氣我們主席已經宣布了下一次開始審才會划"},{"start":5063.769,"end":5090.384,"text":"全職運備我的版本3000億不要分給地方以後就不要跟你一樣3000億啊你主動給人家法律規定多3000億給人家地方怎麼分按人口分按他的招商成績分按什麼分土地面積分或者按照其他的特售的地方分那個都第二個層次第一個層次先把錢放幾千億下來"},{"start":5091.995,"end":5097.799,"text":"這個你們做得到嗎?你好歹你要講到現在為止沒有!一個都沒有!我以為國務組要來找我說好歹說可以放多少給地方雖然你法沒有出來你告訴我1000億、2000億、3000億我都覺得你有成立到現在為止完全沒有成立"},{"start":5113.168,"end":5135.162,"text":"完全吃定立法院 大家以為財務會我都是跟你 你好我好 大家好 大家都當好人這個 我再強調一遍我們下一次開始審財務法 絕對審財務法而且委員這麼多版本 財政部沒有版本拉倒"},{"start":5136.605,"end":5163.233,"text":"我們就來審我們就來審沒有規定說一定要有你們的部分我覺得今天這個公聽會主席太宅心人後真的太客氣了下一次真的拜託主席就開始審這個才會好這以上我個人的一個也謝謝所有的學者專家以前我們當立委以前我也是學者專家之一"},{"start":5164.532,"end":5178.661,"text":"委員會被請到這裡但是我告訴各位今天各位都是陪著莊翠英部長跑龍套啦你們講這個都假的啦就在怕他不敢決定再做龍套做龍套就是"},{"start":5180.369,"end":5189.552,"text":"秉持賴清德要把權力抓在手上我高興給你多少我就給你多少高興給多一點就可以多一點不高興給少一點就這樣子壓霸極權黃幣的思想莫此為勝謝謝"},{"start":5197.668,"end":5197.688,"text":"謝謝賴委員"},{"start":5227.849,"end":5230.173,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5247.242,"end":5261.875,"text":"陳詹惠然後我們莊部長還有各位長官還有學術同僚在座各位女士先生大家早我很快的就我的想大概說明的幾個主題因為是下一個大概"},{"start":5262.415,"end":5262.535,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5286.076,"end":5313.732,"text":"蠻大的那個變動但其實財化法的修法它本身應該是要反映國內的那個地方跟中央分權的那個狀態所以我這個地方也列了幾個幾個基本上財化法要修大概基本上這幾個大概都會要去談像礦區稅早就不在了因為我們後來有一個礦業法的修正但是財化法裡面還是把礦區稅放在那裡面但我們有一些稅是沒有放在裡面像"},{"start":5314.312,"end":5341.208,"text":"特銷稅就是特種貨物及勞務稅條例跟那個房地利稅是因為我們現在把它放在所得稅裡面所以它看起來沒有特別的一個閒幕但特銷稅基本上修法我們民國103年修的時候基本上就沒有把它放進去所以它就沒有劃到那個中央跟地方的財稅劃分體系裡面去然後其實我6月份的第一次公聽會的時候我有參加那我那時候看大概"},{"start":5342.449,"end":5369.032,"text":"會場大概主要的關注議題包括我們立當政府也其實也派了很多同仁來都會希望自己能夠把自己在統籌分配稅款裡面的分配比例拉高這一點無可厚非因為大家都希望自己能執政底下能夠有多一點的錢可以用不過是這樣就是說統籌分配稅款其實只是我們財政法其中一個問題而已它其實我們當然政治上可以聚焦在這上面可是"},{"start":5369.372,"end":5398.346,"text":"因為我們是立法院的財委會我們要修法你可能要把整個稍微角度拉高一點這個是第一個那我在上一次六月份的時候其實有講過一件事情因為我大概那時候就主要談了focus重點就是說其實財化它本身不是單獨的它是跟地方制度裡面你地方要做哪些事情簡單來講就是地方要做事一定要有事務權然後要有人事權然後財政是support這兩個因為做事情"},{"start":5399.346,"end":5402.949,"text":"財政本質上就是去support地方知事團體要做的事跟他執行這些事務的公務員的相關的費用這不然"},{"start":5415.237,"end":5441.675,"text":"巧婦難迴無米之炊那正是基於這個看法所以我們接下來才劃了劃分其實是要去去支應這一件事情那這個地方講地方自治受憲法保障制度這個我想因為這是純粹法律上的觀點我就帶過去就好地方自治簡單來講就是不管我們的憲法本我們的徵修憲法徵修條文跟大法官解釋都說地方自治是一個應該保障"},{"start":5442.375,"end":5443.035,"text":"財政劃分和財政調整或講財政平衡"},{"start":5472.535,"end":5473.416,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":5502.535,"end":5528.594,"text":"先把它拉出來你跟中央 因為其實有些是中央要做的事情比如說外交、國防 這個都沒辦法嘛像外交、國防、司法、閉制這些都是憲法上本來就是給國家的權限那地方做了很多事情其實很大程度上也會跟中央有重疊比如說你說治安這件事情治安當然其實有中央的整個比如說它的警政署或內政部所想要做的"},{"start":5528.874,"end":5556.35,"text":"當然還是有地方自治團體他本身的警察啦必須要去做一些相關的治安的東西所以我們是這樣講就是說你先把中央跟總體地方做一個第一次劃分叫垂直劃分然後接下來才是第一次的水平劃分就是這個時候才開始劃分那個我們同樣是地方自治團體那臺北市跟新北市、桃園市怎麼分這個問題那這個是第一次水平劃分"},{"start":5557.73,"end":5580.67,"text":"財政調整制度是在講因為第一次劃分總是一個法馬天秤上可能會對部分的地方自治團體是不利的比如說我只是舉個例子南投縣或澎湖縣可能是因為地儲的條件的關係它的條件就是你這樣第一次劃分以後它在總體裡面是放到"},{"start":5581.331,"end":5597.331,"text":"地方總體裡面但他在做第一次水平劃分的時候他不像台北市或我們的直轄市他有那麼強的經濟上的能力但是他幅員也很大他的幅員導致他第一次分的時候不管是垂直或跟水平劃分以後他是不夠的"},{"start":5600.373,"end":5618.379,"text":"財政調整制度 包括統籌分配稅款以及我們制度上還有一個叫中央補助款是一般型補助款 它是透過那個部分你要把它一併拉進來來去做整體考量才對因為這個其實我們地方的自有財源其實在編預算的時候 這兩塊都是算進來的"},{"start":5621.46,"end":5639.275,"text":"第二次垂直劃分就是中央如何透過因為你在第一次劃分的時候他可能初出的那個劃分是不就不夠精細嘛這一定的那要精細接下來就是才要去透過第二次的垂直劃分乃至於第二次的水平劃分我們講就是地方自己"},{"start":5639.995,"end":5654.151,"text":"自己決定說我比如說我台北市我補助新北市或者舉例啦台北市補助新北市比如說我的垃圾分化爐我不想設在台北市假設啦那我希望我當然只能放在新北市或是搞不好我要放到宜蘭"},{"start":5654.932,"end":5679.213,"text":"那這個時候我有一些任務我要完成那我就請你幫我做這個事情因為可能在我自己境內我做這個事情我有一些民意上考量當然也不是說宜蘭縣或是新北市就不適合做這個事這個其實就是一個任務上的分配跟你要去反映它相對的那個東西那我個人是想說其實我們這裡面財劃法裡面已經有一些規定的"},{"start":5680.214,"end":5702.464,"text":"已經有的我就把它寫在這裡但沒寫的這是如果要做修法的話可以把這些基本原則先把它放進去因為這些基本原則等於是將來財政部它在具體執行這一線事務的時候或是將來立法院財委會要做這件事情的時候它有一個比較大的方向跟方針這個大的方向方針包括了"},{"start":5703.644,"end":5724.833,"text":"財政劃分,你第一次水平跟垂直劃分,你要根據事權去劃分,因為那個地方我自己留得啦,他大概是abgab abgab跟inam就是事務,事務決定你的支出,然後你的支出你的收入要去對應,其實在座有一些會計,會計同仁都很清楚,那個成本分要去對應"},{"start":5726.133,"end":5727.254,"text":"財政調整包括了"},{"start":5757.145,"end":5783.733,"text":"從頭分配稅款跟一般型的補助款那其實特別要講一下那個特別統籌分配稅款其實它不是它其實是為了緊急的那個特別財政需要像那個南投921大地震的時候它不是遭受很大財政傷害損失或是今年4月份花蓮縣那個那這個時候它會有財政傷害困難特別統籌分配稅款是為了這一種特殊緊急狀態去做的它基本上不是平常在動的"},{"start":5784.733,"end":5810.558,"text":"普通總合分費稅項加一般型補助款它才是拿來做我們一般在做財政調整政策上的一個正確的工具雖然其實學理上補助款不應該放在這裡面因為補助款它本身就有計劃性、針對性那我們的補助辦法裡面其實有一個叫計劃型補助款那一般型補助款我們實務的操作目前是把它當作是某種程度上是財政調整制度而一環"},{"start":5810.998,"end":5837.478,"text":"那我最後就講這件事情就是其實這個事情是蠻重要的是我們要提出一個版本的時候你要把地方自治團體所有的考量因素透過一個叫基本財政需要跟基準財政能力然後你去算那個基本財政收支短差短差的意思就是我能力收到的不足以反映我的需要因為我執行事務我需要這些錢"},{"start":5838.626,"end":5838.666,"text":"主席"},{"start":5856.209,"end":5856.469,"text":"財政負責"},{"start":5876.749,"end":5876.889,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5898.283,"end":5924.97,"text":"你不管你住南投住澎湖住台北市其實理應要享有同樣的公共服務水準這個是我們最大的理念是在這個建立在這個前提底下那其他因為時間緣故我就不太多說最後面考量就是你地方其實也要自己有財政努力啦因為講白一點我們有些地方稅跟地方自治稅金可以收不收這個要考慮啦我講說大方向大致上是這幾個方向那我報告就到這裡謝謝"},{"start":5926.687,"end":5940.392,"text":"非常謝謝柯教授 謝謝接著我們請財政法人國家政治研究基金會的周信佑周研究員 謝謝"},{"start":5945.241,"end":5973.918,"text":"主席、部長、委員還有各位先進大家好首先我們談到財化法其實首先我們要呼籲財化法一定要盡快修因為它已經有25年沒有修了在過去的話在京省之前是6比4後來變成7比3甚至75比25但是這並不是說中央真的拿了那麼多因為很多的"},{"start":5976.445,"end":6002.705,"text":"包括很多的錢權其實是中央在處理的所以他其實並沒有說真的失衡到這個地步但是以地方自治來講應該要把權和錢事權都要盡量的下放到地方因為這樣才是符合地方自治所以我們在希望首先在垂直的翻配上應該要有"},{"start":6004.767,"end":6009.122,"text":"在根據我們的預算的那個部分"},{"start":6010.626,"end":6039.259,"text":"大概我們那時候是精算是希望根據我們的稅收的9%增加9%也就是3208億能下放給地方這是在垂直方面然後有一些中央本來負擔的一些事務也可以把它下放到地方那這樣其實中央並沒有損失到這麼多的錢然後第二"},{"start":6040.868,"end":6058.889,"text":"在水平分配方面我們希望他能用一個簡單和一個明確的公式能入法因為這樣的話讓各個縣市都能明確的知道我可以大概估算到多少然後我們希望以眾理導"},{"start":6061.452,"end":6061.472,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6079.165,"end":6097.381,"text":"跟國家政策基金會在之前有跟16個縣市曾經開會做一些討論然後事後也有跟一些縣市取得的一些共識和所以我們在分配上我們是希望所得稅的部分由10%變成11%然後營業稅的話由40%變成100%然後"},{"start":6104.247,"end":6121.264,"text":"在菸酒稅方面能讓離島的金門和馬祖可以直接得到了八成的菸酒稅的分成這部分是我們覺得這部分的話可以讓落實到眾離島"},{"start":6123.826,"end":6148.079,"text":"再加上相信財政部其實最近也跟很多縣市有一些共識包括了土地面積營業額然後所謂的農業人口工業人口的還有財政努力還有非稅客收入的部分其實這些權重我們都可以給一定的權重然後讓各個縣市在以"},{"start":6149.54,"end":6149.56,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6173.097,"end":6173.257,"text":"李坤誠委員"},{"start":6198.988,"end":6223.64,"text":"好,謝謝主席,謝謝所有今天的與會學者專家還有包含我們財政部主席處還有各縣市的財政處的負責人然後今天討論財化法的修法,今天辦這個公聽會我覺得辦公聽會是好的,多討論也是好的那因為現在送到我們財政委員會要討論的財化法的版本高達20個"},{"start":6225.061,"end":6251.948,"text":"高達20個所以大家對於這個財務法有很多的一些不同的一些意見而且呢這個20個版本呢是關於這個中央統籌分配款的增列金額有從300多億到5700多億那這個金額也相差的非常的懸殊那可見呢這個連提版本的不管是國民黨民眾黨或是各個委員其實也都沒有共識那金額差的也是非常的多"},{"start":6252.668,"end":6253.668,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":6268.593,"end":6268.813,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6284.701,"end":6285.021,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6303.3,"end":6304.041,"text":"立法院第1次公聽會議"},{"start":6319.322,"end":6346.797,"text":"按照目前國民黨所提出來的版本按照他們的數字因為他們是把營業稅扣掉統一發票獎金之後全部我們現在營業稅是40%他現在是100%扣掉統一發票然後所得稅是從10%增加到25%然後貨物稅10%如果按照國民黨的版本這個統籌分配款的金額會突破上兆會突破一兆元"},{"start":6347.637,"end":6375.035,"text":"那我就想請問一下當然這個很多縣市局處的財政局的都在這邊想請問一下就是說這個統籌分配款上照增加到這麼多地方政府有準備好了嗎地方政府有準備好要做什麼嗎那其實在新北市議會也有民進黨的議員也問過侯友宜市長那如果多了這麼多的統籌分配款要做什麼"},{"start":6376.224,"end":6376.745,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6401.959,"end":6404.242,"text":"文字館﹑其他不必要的設施"},{"start":6415.996,"end":6443.739,"text":"會不會會有一些不必要的一些文職管一些設施出來我覺得這個大家也要去討論一下啦那所以說我們在討論如何把這個餅做大那其實呢也要去檢討就是說這個地方政府你有錢有增加了那你的責任有沒有跟著調整那所以說落實財政的自主我認為修這個財化法你必須把地制法"},{"start":6444.479,"end":6445.8,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":6465.27,"end":6478.204,"text":"財化法就是像我講的它就是像地質法的財政的面向所以你必須要把兩個法一起來做配套的修改然後才有辦法讓整個財化法修法更為完善"},{"start":6482.208,"end":6482.468,"text":"臺灣整體發展的未來並不是最好的"},{"start":6513.099,"end":6534.727,"text":"謝謝我們李坤城委員之前本席在內政委員會擔任召委的時候我們的這個總統副總統群體辦公正群體辦的版本超過20幾個應該有80幾個還是順利修訂完成所以本席的目標不是送出委員會是本會期立法完成謝謝接著我們請武大開武教授謝謝"},{"start":6543.615,"end":6552.6,"text":"那主席還有各位先進大家好那我是逢老大學會計系的伍大開那很高興有機會在這邊分享一些關於財政收支劃分法的一些想法"},{"start":6553.666,"end":6575.32,"text":"那首先我們看一下這個是我整理出來2023年的直轄市以外就是一般的縣市非直轄市縣市他們的這個稅務的結構那我們會發現到說其實大概地方政府有大概20%的稅務的來源是來自於自籌財源那大概24%是來自於統籌分配稅款那剩下大概五成左右是來自於這個補助及協助收入"},{"start":6575.7,"end":6602.642,"text":"所以我們可以看得出來說其實地方政府他們相當的這個仰賴中央政府的這個補助及協助相關的收入那這樣子的一個財政的背景也帶出了這一次的財劃法的一個修正的相關討論那修法的草案主要內容雖然目前有很多個版本但其實主要的我們可以簡化成大概有以下兩點那首先第一點的部分就是我們想要去擴大這個中央統籌分配稅款的一個規模也就是說我們要把這個餅做大"},{"start":6603.643,"end":6604.263,"text":"分配方式 要如何分配大餅"},{"start":6623.39,"end":6650.121,"text":"好那關於這一次的這個修法的一些相關討論那我有以下的一些建議就是供各位先進參考那首先第一個就是收入跟支出其實我們都知道它是一體兩面的一個事情所以當我們想要去修正收入的一些相關的修法的時候那其實支出的部分這個權責劃分的部分其實應該要一併在這個修法中一併去做討論這樣那因為這個地方政府在這次的修法他們拿到的這個統籌分配稅款應該預期是會增加"},{"start":6652.182,"end":6670.713,"text":"那所以這個地方政府的支出責任應該也要一併的去做一併去做調整這樣但是我認為說這個地方政府支出責任的這個提升的幅度其實還是有一個可以討論的空間那我認為說這個提升的幅度啊其實我們應該還是要小於這個統籌分配稅款增加的一個幅度"},{"start":6670.913,"end":6671.033,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6702.294,"end":6703.355,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":6723.849,"end":6744.411,"text":"做到一個公平這樣子的一個結果那其實功能是有一點重複的那既然如此在這次在這次修法之中我們是不是應該讓統籌分配稅管可以脫離了這個公平面的一個討論讓這個一般性補助管就回歸到他本身肩負的這個公平的一個責任然後讓統籌分配稅管有其他的一些分配上的一個考量"},{"start":6746.191,"end":6751.957,"text":"第三,提升地方政府財政努力的誘因,將財政努力的指標列入統籌分配稅款的計算公式,建立一個多面向的財政努力指標"},{"start":6768.533,"end":6782.295,"text":"然後將這個指標把它放在我們統籌分配稅款的分配裡面那這樣子地方政府它就會有誘因想要去藉由多增加自己的努力然後來強化自己的財政努力然後去爭取更多的統籌分配稅款"},{"start":6783.797,"end":6806.896,"text":"那一般補助款中 因為目前一般補助款它其實已經有一些關於財政績效的一些評分的一些標準跟一些就是考量的部分那就像剛剛說的 如果今天我們想要讓統籌分配稅款它是一個比較偏向效率的 比較偏向財政努力的話那一般補助款的關於財政績效的部分其實都應該要一併的把它整併到我們的統籌分配稅款裡面"},{"start":6808.851,"end":6831.302,"text":"那再來第4個就是關於這個統籌分配稅款還有補助款的一個分配辦法那其實在之前以往關於這個統籌分配稅款跟補助款的分配公式那其實一直都有被就是有一些人有認為說他的公式可能有點太複雜了他可能相對來講比較沒有那麼透明所以我會認為說既然就是在這次難得有一個修法的一個機會的話"},{"start":6832.142,"end":6833.102,"text":"立法院第1次公聽會議"},{"start":6854.772,"end":6858.137,"text":"統籌分配稅管和補助管的公式分配所採用的參數可能隨著時代變遷需要重新檢討或修正"},{"start":6869.514,"end":6870.234,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政部長"},{"start":6892.185,"end":6913.869,"text":"我相信在政府還有專家學者的努力之下,我們可以讓分配稅款的公式一直符合時代的需求以上部分是我的報告,謝謝謝謝吳教授,謝謝你接著我們請台北商業大學的羅石萬羅教授"},{"start":6921.869,"end":6921.889,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6929.295,"end":6957.215,"text":"主席各位先進各位委員還有在座各位朋友大家好很榮幸能夠有這個參加公聽會表達我對財務法修正的建議的一些想法提供給大家參考財務法基本上問題就這三個一個就是錢不夠多再來就是怎麼去分再來是分了以後那個資金的效率使用所以他最主要就這三個問題我就很明在講那我們這三個問題第一個就是"},{"start":6959.005,"end":6987.018,"text":"它補助款跟統籌款兩個重疊換句話說一個是主計總助管的一個是財政部管的那分配的方法公式都各有不同所以我覺得在規模不足的部分第一個應該要先把統籌款跟補助款應該要先合第二個就是錢不夠所謂錢不夠就是說因為每一年地方政府"},{"start":6988.905,"end":7016.088,"text":"有16 像我昨天查一下有16個地方政府都是債務疑惡阿這是有關規模不足的問題阿第二個有關他分配方式分配方式因為他有分三層第一層就是先分6%、94%第二層在94%裡面又再分成61.76%、24%、8.24%所以這是有關他分配比例有一點武斷不公平阿再來就是"},{"start":7017.509,"end":7036.695,"text":"指甲式的六都跟非指甲式的16縣市分配方式也不一樣這也是常常有爭議的這是第二個問題第三個問題就是有關資金的使用效率你錢給了他以後他到底怎麼用你到底怎麼去考核他幾乎大概"},{"start":7037.495,"end":7059.512,"text":"沒有太多的獎勵大部分都是懲罰的 換句話說誘因可能會不足這是有關我們目前才有這三個大問題那我覺得在講說建議怎麼樣修法第一個就先把一般性補助款一般性補助款大概一年齁我算的數字是以111跟112這兩年平均來算的話大概2050億有2050億然後"},{"start":7068.496,"end":7090.657,"text":"把一般補助款直接就併入統籌分配稅款了省得兩套分配方式而且是一個財政部款一個是主計總數款這是第一個我的建議就把補助款併進去至於統籌分配稅款的部分"},{"start":7092.13,"end":7121.272,"text":"我建議把特別統籌百分之六把它降下來降到百分之二就好了那下面這些建議可能跟各位先進所提的類似就業稅百分之百都歸到統籌款裡面這大概進了有五千兩百億那所需稅跟貨物稅還是維持百分之十那所需稅、貨物稅維持百分之十所需稅大概一千七百五十億貨物稅大概一百六十億所以如果維持的話它大概有一千九百一十億"},{"start":7122.355,"end":7147.929,"text":"那土增稅的部分就匯掉不要再讓它入統籌了這樣子大概可以增加3000億這樣可以大概增加3000億如果把土增稅匯掉直接歸入各地方先知政委的話大概有50億所以光這個規模擴大我認為就可以有3050億左右那這個是有關那個規模擴大的稅額的部分"},{"start":7148.837,"end":7149.038,"text":"稅收分層"},{"start":7155.234,"end":7178.049,"text":"就把它改一下中央只拿40%地方拿60%這樣子大概可以拿地方可以拿到270億那菸酒稅維持不變大概是85億我這個數字大概都是以111跟112年這兩年平均算的那我建議新增營所稅當成稅收分層換句話說地方政府要是好好的經營它的話"},{"start":7180.15,"end":7206.569,"text":"稅收可以留到地方增進他們的效力所以光這個稅收分層這樣的改革大概有530億所以包括剛剛的調整就是上一頁、這一頁的調整擴大規模跟下一頁的這個稅收分層530億這樣總共加起來大概3500、3600我也算了一下最近這兩年我們中央的稅路跟稅數大概是3.6兆"},{"start":7209.158,"end":7227.023,"text":"那平均有關地方跟中央中央大概稅率有75%地方才25%那相反的稅出的部分中央65%少了10%那地方的稅出大概35%換句話說稅率稅出地方大概差10%那3.6兆10%大概就3600億大概我剛剛規劃這個應該差不多可以擬平這是有關規模擴大的那接著"},{"start":7239.258,"end":7239.638,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7261.952,"end":7288.373,"text":"財化法第4條的護表1護表2都要跟著改地制法裡面有關地方自治事項都要跟著改換句話說錢責要相對應剛剛我有聽到一些先進講你收入支出要一起改不是光只拿錢你拿了錢就要做事啊所以要改的時候這個分配方法要算它的分配規則的時候收支錢責要相對應"},{"start":7290.214,"end":7318.021,"text":"那當然在考慮這種東西的時候可能是最麻煩的因為光財源的部分是中央給中央同意就好了但這分配是牽扯到22個地方政府可能意見很多所以這個部分可能相對比較麻煩換句話說你在分配的時候可能要考慮有各地方一致性的公共服務而且要考慮不同地方特殊性的公共服務所以這個部分的訂定可能相對來講"},{"start":7319.79,"end":7319.99,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7334.77,"end":7362.024,"text":"各地方政府參與因為各地方有他的特殊的金色條件跟他的財政能力各有不同所以讓這些地方政府也能夠參與的話可能在設計像剛剛講的那個基準財政收支那個可能規劃的就會比較好一點換句話說共識程度就會比較高比較容易能夠達成這是有關分配的部分最後第三個問題就有關績效的部分就怎麼提升他們的效力因為現行有關"},{"start":7363.41,"end":7377.559,"text":"草案法、財政紀律法、地方自治法其實都有規定對統籌款跟補助款使用的監督考核但大部分的監督考核都牽扯到"},{"start":7378.527,"end":7378.607,"text":"謝謝羅教授"},{"start":7409.813,"end":7410.034,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":7422.642,"end":7450.85,"text":"謝謝主席我們現場的所有的官員還有學者專家本期對於這個主席在排這一次的公聽會的用心表於肯定但是在上一次的公聽會當中跟這一次的公聽會主題比較類似一種延續性的但是也有重複性因為上次在討論公聽會的時候就如同剛剛的幾位學者專家所提到的我們只是希望說收支一併考量"},{"start":7452.311,"end":7474.989,"text":"市權跟財權能夠同步的檢討在機制上或許會比較能夠完整的呈現說地方財政的實質面況其實在討論財政收支劃分法的同時當中其實我覺得要先去釐清幾個問題點第一個面向是說到底台灣的財政體制當中是要採取單一的體制還是聯邦的體制如果過度的強調所謂的地方財政的"},{"start":7479.412,"end":7479.973,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7501.209,"end":7527.802,"text":"所以單一體制跟整個聯邦體制優先要思考第二個部分當然就是還是我剛剛提到有關事權跟財權的部分的面向要如何去做同步的一個調整確實如同剛剛羅教授所提的這確實是比較複雜但同時也是我們要去面對的問題那第三個部分我們要去思考回應的是想一想整個地方政府長期以來他的自主能力跟依賴能力"},{"start":7528.722,"end":7543.136,"text":"自有財源的比例到底多少依賴靠中央的比例到底多少那是逐漸攀升還是逐漸下滑那為何造成這樣的結果那是不是我們在修法的同時是強化了它的依賴性還是要強化了它的自主性"},{"start":7544.117,"end":7567.726,"text":"強化了他依賴性的地方財政是對地方政府比較好還是討好的地方政府或者是強化了他自主性的比較好是對方政府的財政的一個能力真正的提升是比較好的方式還是真的要去思考說只是給錢了事然後從制度面來做這樣的類似民粹性的一個修法這確實是身為立法委員還有包括本委員會應該是共同思考的地方"},{"start":7568.626,"end":7589.174,"text":"本席認為這修法的部分你看看就如同剛剛我一開場所講的從1999年到2024這段時間長達25年的時間我們的財法法都沒有修改可是同時變進了一個地方制度法地方制度法的修改比如說從2度變6度就變化非常之大"},{"start":7591.475,"end":7611.523,"text":"這個部分有沒有隨之調整我們必須說非常相對的有限就如同剛剛幾位學員所講的這有兩面性的問題第一次法其實是財劃法的執行面財劃法其實是第一次法的財政面所以做一體兩面的問題我們要去怎麼去面對這個問題"},{"start":7613.626,"end":7637.381,"text":"在這次在野黨的版本當中一直著重於這個比例上的問題75到25可是我們必須想了整個新興的計畫當中的發動是誰有發動當然是中央政府在省在廢省或者是動省的這個過程當中的整個財政權的移轉過程當中也有隨之移轉的部分是事權的移轉"},{"start":7639.041,"end":7647.174,"text":"包括老農今天的部分、老健保的補助部分、國立高中職的部分這個部分卻也是事實但我們同時也要去面對"},{"start":7649.096,"end":7665.347,"text":"如果就審計部的這個報告當中我們看到就我剛剛說自主力自主能力跟依賴能力的部分的話以照112年全國的這個平均來看的話是這個地方自籌財源的部分自主力的部分大概只有37.48%"},{"start":7669.069,"end":7689.544,"text":"有13個縣市是低於25%甚至不足以支應人事費用的這種情況底下我們看到地方的情況底下他的自主能力其實是下滑了為何如此因為地方政府主要的這個稅基的來源來自於什麼來自於不動產相關的房屋稅、地價稅跟土生稅只要這一棟"},{"start":7691.121,"end":7703.937,"text":"我想啊所有的這個政治效應都會出現所以以至於呢很多縣市首長其實不敢動那第二部分呢在國稅的部分的成長度呢相對於整個地方稅的成長度是非常之高以這一個25年來啊"},{"start":7706.32,"end":7711.803,"text":"整個這個地方稅的7項主要地方稅從2520億調整到112年去年的部分326億不過是成長28.49項的國稅當中是1兆523億變成3兆660億成長了高達191%之多"},{"start":7724.557,"end":7743.142,"text":"所以現在思考回來了我其實還是要呼籲財政部思考一個問題整個地方稅法通則的鬆綁真的要去面對所有地方政府能不能科期稅的部分都要看財政部的認定以至於他只能在能源上 砂石上 天然資源上來做琢磨而已"},{"start":7744.252,"end":7769.548,"text":"這只是單點的科稅作為標的而已所以在比較於其他的國家來說我們這個部分實在是限制過大以至於你值得非常地重怪不得大家天天要跟你要錢的原因是在這邊那最後的部分我再做一些財政法的 財法法修正的一些建議我是認為過去整個直轄市縣市鄉鎮市三套的公司實在過於複雜應該整合成一套"},{"start":7770.909,"end":7771.249,"text":"財政事務部長"},{"start":7790.479,"end":7805.649,"text":"這一個用垂直的分配來解決現在地方政府地方財政的問題而要考慮到水平分配的問題這是非常關鍵的重要點我想時間上的關係我就不再陳述太多我重點意見表述如上請各位參考 謝謝謝謝郭委員 謝謝接著我們請王煌威 王委員"},{"start":7827.264,"end":7827.984,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案公聽委員"},{"start":7851.835,"end":7874.533,"text":"在這個部分事實上在上個會期財劃法包含有很多的版本已經送進立法院了然後我們也召開了公聽會而且也進入了審查我們在進入實質審查的時候其實當時邀請了所有的縣市代表有的是副市長陳琦自己親自參加有一些是局長陳琦"},{"start":7875.954,"end":7894.009,"text":"然後所有縣市事實上是不分黨派的縣市幾乎都表達了希望能夠修正財劃法因為大家都知道財劃法已經長達四分之一個世紀都沒有修正而在這段時間裡面整個的經濟的變化整個社會的結構出現了這麼多的改變但是呢我們財劃法不動如山"},{"start":7903.356,"end":7903.516,"text":"財政部委員"},{"start":7919.977,"end":7933.841,"text":"有這麼多的版本,而且我們也發現很多的,即便是執政黨的委員也提到了財化法修正的一些必要性更不要說各縣市也有這樣的迫切性可是到了這個會期,我們的財政部竟然告訴我們不用修法這是非常遺憾,而且我也覺得這是非常怠惰的事情"},{"start":7943.403,"end":7943.563,"text":"公聽會 報告"},{"start":7972.935,"end":7977.641,"text":"一張大小這裏面內政部完全沒有提及應該要"},{"start":7980.185,"end":8009.103,"text":"一起來修正地方制度法所以我必須說啦這樣的把地方制度法的牽扯下來恐怕是一個希望能夠阻擋這個才化法的修法可是你看內政部根本也不在乎我相信搞不好他們也都沒有在仔細看那是一個公式的這個反應裡面完全沒有提到應該並同修正地方制度法這個是我想今天在公聽會可以確定這一點那另外呢"},{"start":8010.843,"end":8031.41,"text":"有提到就說沒有錯在這個過程裡面我們從兩都變成六都也就是因為這樣啊因為從兩都最後增加到六都之後真的有很多非六都的縣市他們的資源財政資源真的被大幅的排擠"},{"start":8032.35,"end":8050.519,"text":"所以他們更有這樣的一個緊迫性需要性來修正財劃法我想先把上述應該儘速來修正財劃法也就是我要呼應一下我們昭偉他的一個想法來跟大家做討論好我們講到這個財劃法的部分為什麼這麼需要來趕快做一個調整因為"},{"start":8060.117,"end":8077.598,"text":"我們地方如果他們財政無法自主他們的財政一直在仰賴中央給他的統籌款或者是補助款而使得我們地方真的難以自治所以在講說地方自治某一個程度也是說假的"},{"start":8078.619,"end":8085.624,"text":"我在這邊提供一個數字也就是我們最近10年國稅的成長率達到104%但是我們地方稅的成長率只有13%而我們全國稅收的比例國稅的部分達到90%地方稅的部分10%"},{"start":8100.134,"end":8117.743,"text":"所以大家就可以知道在線下的我們的一個地方財政的這個制度跟地方財政的結構他是一個中央集錢集錢當然就集權所以這個結構是如此的"},{"start":8118.578,"end":8141.941,"text":"另外我們也可以看到不管是主計處或財政部都告訴你沒有沒有地方財政沒有你們講的這麼差因為呢我們都有統籌款啊我們都有這個補助款啊那也跟大家報告最近大家不再講什麼退回總預算的部分我想對預算稍有一些了解的都知道"},{"start":8142.742,"end":8164.791,"text":"有關於預算的執行只要你是在上一年度已經有執行的在下一年度即便是沒有 立法院沒有通過預算它仍然應該要執行 仍然可以執行那它相差的部分是在哪裡呢就是新增加的 新增跟新興的計劃沒有錯 所以現在就拿這個所謂"},{"start":8169.113,"end":8169.814,"text":"那我要跟大家報告"},{"start":8181.446,"end":8198.803,"text":"軍公教不管是113年度的調薪或114年度的調薪都是地方在支出地方議會在審核其實我已經問了好多的地方的財政局長他說因為他們也把預算編到這個地方的議會"},{"start":8199.824,"end":8203.789,"text":"只要地方議會的他們通過一樣加薪的部分他們會照發沒有影響但是我在這邊也要跟大家講就是這樣的一個中央請客地方買單每一年都有啊"},{"start":8217.026,"end":8224.05,"text":"不是只有一年每一年都有所以地方財政好一點的就繼續的幫中央來付錢差一點的只好拜託中央能不能來補助我們這就是我們現行的地方財政的一個現況"},{"start":8236.636,"end":8265.639,"text":"所以如果在我們一直在講說沒問題啊我們再補助給他們但是我們都沒有去算一算中央到底有多少的請客然後支票最後是由地方來買單的所以我們一直在講所謂的補助款好像我們給地方一些favor實則不然因為對不起我的時間到了本來應該可以談很多的但是呢還是要多聽聽我們專家學者的意見謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":8267.168,"end":8268.389,"text":"黃耀輝,台北商業大學黃教授"},{"start":8291.244,"end":8311.282,"text":"主席 各位與會的先進大家早安很榮幸受邀第二次參加這個財化法的公聽會我六月份的時候就表達過我用一些數據講這個過去的這個財化法修正的大歷史麻煩幫我翻到下一頁"},{"start":8312.901,"end":8313.061,"text":"主席"},{"start":8336.853,"end":8338.955,"text":"國稅地方稅112年度地方政府家總地方稅總稅收4千億"},{"start":8356.403,"end":8356.423,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8373.859,"end":8376.502,"text":"中央行政院主計總署各級政府進收支表"},{"start":8388.584,"end":8389.865,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":8411.539,"end":8412.24,"text":"在廢審之前,中央政府收入近的佔比不到6成,57%"},{"start":8425.576,"end":8444.83,"text":"結果一廢審一修憲之後 中央政府收入的佔比突然暴增到74% 75%所以中央政府收入佔比就造成我們現在財政失衡是最嚴重是我們財務法修正造成的最大問題我們再看下一頁"},{"start":8446.111,"end":8469.907,"text":"這個中央佔比一直高達七成多一直到113年度的預算中央佔比高達75%可能有人會想財政部可能會想說那如果將來你要我把這個統中分稅款的餅做大我做到多出一點錢我就砍你的補助款我提醒財政委員會或立院的"},{"start":8471.128,"end":8474.191,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":8488.228,"end":8489.169,"text":"中央佔比還高達75%"},{"start":8509.369,"end":8527.415,"text":"這個修法的重點很清楚,就是把同層分位稅款做大,不能減少補助款,請再翻回第一頁所以這25年來,中央多拿了10兆,佔比更集權,地方財政就惡化,地方政治就倒退"},{"start":8528.095,"end":8528.856,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":8544.699,"end":8545.099,"text":"財政部財政部長"},{"start":8569.349,"end":8569.629,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8585.185,"end":8609.015,"text":"把這個統政分支法餅做大之後呢分配公視都很好談為什麼因為現在就是地方政府錢不夠啊生吃都不夠拿來曬乾錢都不夠那地方政府當然就炒來炒去啊中央政府就利用你地方政府炒來炒去沒有共識然後就不修財化法所以呢我覺得很簡單就是把這個餅做大之後呢分配公視小事一樁啦"},{"start":8609.755,"end":8617.844,"text":"因為地方支付錢都夠了 六都的錢也很夠了 十六縣的錢都很夠了要分配都很好談 六都都很嚴厲讓給其他縣市"},{"start":8622.114,"end":8623.195,"text":"財政部6月5日公聽會擴大統籌分配稅規模方向規劃"},{"start":8642.498,"end":8648.322,"text":"上次公聽會前的一場地方縣市的初審會議,除了屏東縣政府沒出席,台南市、高雄市因為立場尷尬,因為黨意要遵從,其實很高興"},{"start":8665.953,"end":8667.514,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":8696.176,"end":8700.342,"text":"財政部本會期開議前提出財化法修正草案結果財政部在8、9月初召集22縣市來討論"},{"start":8711.377,"end":8713.278,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":8728.669,"end":8752.34,"text":"然後講說求快貿然通過將會造成更大制宜這個意圖明顯境界不高嘛就擺明就是不要再修嘛就是打算30年都不要修彩畫法了那卓院長當然就聽莊部長的話說現在沒辦法得出大家能夠接受的方式這是水平分配的問題啦這個沒辦法解決不修啦所以你看到這個財政部立場是很值得檢討來再看下一頁"},{"start":8758.483,"end":8772.489,"text":"財政部提出事是而非的說法財政部說:「過去財法法五次修法都沒有完成,因為共識難以形成,所以分配機制要力求完善。」"},{"start":8773.089,"end":8798.406,"text":"如果求快貿然通過：大幅式租財源為顧及水平跟被合理性自私亦分擴大是一字莫名其妙的說法我一一反駁我們看下一頁我的看法是這樣子財化法25年沒有修現在修法怎麼叫求快貿然25年你財政部有25年時間一直都不提不予不修故意讓他不修他還現在叫做什麼求快貿然然後這次財務你把"},{"start":8802.008,"end":8811.655,"text":"中央不肯把柄做大分配公司讓地方互打當然就沒有共識所以這次就是故計重施財政部也承認在6月份公聽會的書面報告10個縣市把他轄區內的國稅全部分給他"},{"start":8817.719,"end":8844.856,"text":"也不夠讓他說出的需要啦所以呢請問財政部如果你不把垂直分配這個把柄做大你怎麼解決這10個縣市啊告訴地方政府去水平物捐那邊去分配可以解決嗎當然不行嘛財政部都知道啊怎麼可以不把中央的錢拿分下來呢把柄做大是地方政府最大的公視這是無庸置疑的把柄做大啦分配公視就很簡單很好定我們再來看怎麼好定我們看下一頁"},{"start":8845.356,"end":8868.409,"text":"下一頁我們就看以國民黨的版本為例他把餅做大提高地方自主113年度預算為例公示非常簡單又能夠調劑延續第一個人人平等按照憲法人人平等把統籌分配餅做大之後60幾百人按人口數分配新北市會分到最多因為他人口400萬"},{"start":8869.629,"end":8870.29,"text":"新北市公聽會議"},{"start":8887.356,"end":8904.439,"text":"有錢的哥哥姊姊都分給窮的弟弟妹妹保障人口少的縣市、離島、農業縣市、偏遠地區的縣市或農業縣市人口比較少我們就給他保障,不要全部都被人口多的佔盡便宜"},{"start":8905.14,"end":8906.001,"text":"從這邊各位有沒有看到你把這個做大之後呢"},{"start":8932.782,"end":8934.623,"text":"財政努力、綠色能源、莫名其妙的分配指標根本是來亂的"},{"start":8947.274,"end":8962.456,"text":"所以你看到國運版的那個版本它就是超黨派的就增加比例來講限制增加最多然後每個限制都增加了很多6度增加了不到一倍所以16限制增加最多"},{"start":8962.816,"end":8964.097,"text":"新北市人口最多,每人最少"},{"start":8980.011,"end":8990.639,"text":"但是新北市政府願意接受,這告訴我們什麼?就是你把柄做大之後,地方政府的分配都好談,那最後結果就是什麼?六度的佔比從現在的同州分數的62%降到不到50%,十六縣市從現在不到24%增加到41%"},{"start":8996.804,"end":9018.743,"text":"所以地方財政就是和樂融融啊這為什麼和樂而不為呢我們再來看下一頁所以財政部第二個說法說如果中央釋出財源卻沒同時檢討釋權劃分會造成地方支出腐爛影響財政距離我要講的是事實剛好相反是我們中央政府支出腐爛再敗壞財政距離怎麼說我們看下一頁那個"},{"start":9022.242,"end":9037.331,"text":"市權劃分不是財政部說了算也不是地方政府想要幹什麼就幹什麼是我們憲法107條規定很清楚像國防、外交、社外的事務包括國稅、省稅、縣稅的劃分這是中央極權的一個權利把漏多的劃分給中央這個中央"},{"start":9046.336,"end":9064.364,"text":"立法執行的事情就佔盡了優勢有沒有因為上次修憲之後我中央的事情就多錢沒有啊,憲法規定你要做國防外交這些社外事務嘛全國一致的事務嘛那哪有因為上次88年修憲之後就增加你中央政府的私權"},{"start":9065.484,"end":9093.729,"text":"你事情做變多了,錢就要花得更多沒有啊,我們再看下一頁在111條,我們憲法有一個剩餘依全的分配除了剛才講的那個,如果有未列舉事情呢發生的時候,有全國一致的性質本來就是你中央該做的啊那有各省一致的性質,那就省啊各縣一致的性質就屬於縣啊那有爭議的時候,由立法院解決所以我這邊要問財政部的是說你講那麼多,說哎呀,事前要劃分要檢討"},{"start":9095.049,"end":9097.35,"text":"財政部說:「給地方這麼多錢,支出會腐爛,地方財政紀律就敗壞。」"},{"start":9119.16,"end":9141.56,"text":"中央政府的事權從修憲以前到現在都沒有增加過反而是自己支出腐爛違背財政紀律我們看一個很簡單的事實蔡政府過去8年內稅收超徵了1.8兆結果編列多少?2.57兆的特別預算超收就超花嘛誰在亂花錢?是中央啊我們再看下一頁我們再看敗壞財政紀律"},{"start":9146.191,"end":9163.319,"text":"過去幾年 撥補勞保 勞保不改革按照社會保險 財務就要知己知足啊你在保險體系 你就 剛那個保費收得不高 你就該調啊不敢改革 結果呢 就一直撥補撥補就中央政府稅收太多了 錢太多了好 就撥補啊 現在撥補勞保呢 已經編列3771億"},{"start":9167.49,"end":9190.462,"text":"地方政府有這種本事嗎這個3771啊相繼這地方政府一年的稅收全部的稅收欸中央就隨便一撥老闆不敢改革就撥補那台電能源政策錯誤違反使用者付費也不敢調漲電費然後呢已經撥補了3000億今年還追加預算1000億明年又編列1000億撥補總共要撥補5000億啊這個錢啊"},{"start":9195.785,"end":9216.294,"text":"這個錢啊你財政部收稅收得那麼辛苦你為什麼不叫勞動部去改革勞保你為什麼不叫台電去建議中央調整你錯誤的能源政策為什麼要我們納稅人來補填你台電補補你的勞保破壞財政距離是你財政部啊中央啊我們再看下一頁所以我們觀察過去這個"},{"start":9219.315,"end":9238.403,"text":"蔡政府到賴政府元年,我們來看,中央就是錢多多花多多,105年中央稅率還不到2兆,稅數內也快將近2兆,結果到113年度,現在這個年度,稅率就暴增到2.73兆,稅數2.85兆,你看這8年內成長了"},{"start":9243.506,"end":9269.619,"text":"平均每年成長率6%請問地方政府有辦法每年稅收編列成長率這麼高很可憐每年幾乎都是一點點的成長再來看下一頁我們再來看今年下一年度的110年度因為我把它叫做賴清德總統的元年的預算可以看到這個你會嚇死114年度稅率是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":9271.564,"end":9284.832,"text":"突破3兆,3兆1000多億,剛剛我講的105年的時候,蔡英文剛上台的時候,還不到2兆現在賴清德上台編的第一個預算,收入稅務就3兆1000多億,成長率16%"},{"start":9290.635,"end":9291.115,"text":"中央多麼有錢,20%"},{"start":9307.088,"end":9327.313,"text":"今年編列預算的時候他就不願意把錢撥給我們地方政府就拚命編列中央成長20%結果呢去幹什麼事我們看下一頁稅數也是暴增增加到三兆一千多億從不到兩兆七千多億變成三兆多"},{"start":9329.073,"end":9339.298,"text":"成長率稅數呢就10%就是什麼稅率我就很樂觀的高估然後掩護我多邊的支出嘛所以支出就暴增嘛啊這個暴增呢"},{"start":9340.958,"end":9358.104,"text":"創下我們台灣歷史的新高級我們看到中央多麼的有錢越有錢就越愛花錢所以我們再看下一頁這樣看下來的結果就是過去9年包括蔡政府8年以及賴政府的第1年稅率成長就被拉高到71%稅數成長了57%這9年來"},{"start":9362.626,"end":9364.547,"text":"中央政府稅率年成長8%,稅數年成長6.3%"},{"start":9392.726,"end":9405.503,"text":"副爸媽的中央請你多把錢分出來給窮子你不要自己把它亂花掉了中央呢應該把全部政府收入喔注意喔我這邊講是全部政府收入的10%不是"},{"start":9407.182,"end":9413.246,"text":"中央收入的10% 到15%要還給地方政府這樣把同收分稅款的餅做大之後公司很簡單簡化、平等、照顧到貧窮的縣市"},{"start":9426.696,"end":9433,"text":"主計總署的進收支表已經扣掉補助款,之後中央佔比113.6%,還到75%所以我們很擔心財政部或主計總署,因為我們把它比做大之後"},{"start":9449.149,"end":9476.937,"text":"就倒打一把就是拿就把同分稅款減少我們這個在立法這個財劃法的修正版本拜託拜託一定要加入這個條款這個補助款不能低於113年度這個水準這個很重要道理是因為主計總署的表已經很客觀的告訴我們真相中央是佔盡了這個稅率的便宜收入他是佔了很大"},{"start":9481.542,"end":9494.398,"text":"垂直平衡,過去賴清德當行政院長就說要修,上一任財政部長也承諾要修,最後是零和跳票"},{"start":9495.279,"end":9496.441,"text":"中央集權集權之弊"},{"start":9511.901,"end":9532.78,"text":"國債中 今年還飆到每個人27萬 狀況歷史新高我們看到我們國防外交中央政府花的錢都是花在國外啊為什麼不把這個錢花在外國人身上的錢給我們的地方政府 用在地方自治給我們國內同胞去享用"},{"start":9534.469,"end":9546.905,"text":"財化法地方財政的目的就是讓我們國人享用我們自己辛苦繳納的稅收嘛幹嘛把這個錢給中央中央拿去給搞國防搞外交你看國防今年變的預算多少下一年度預算6400多億"},{"start":9548.916,"end":9549.116,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":9579.626,"end":9607.507,"text":"負把中央請你把垂直失衡的優先解決你也承諾過所以我們建議這樣看起來現在財政部行政院根本就不想修了因為它佔盡了便宜所以建議藍白綠一定要合作不要等財政部了本會期就一起合作提出統籌分析稅款的秉座大補助款不能減少的財發法修這個部分就可以了"},{"start":9607.887,"end":9628.561,"text":"分配公司要不要我們立法委員們來擔心?不用!為什麼?財政部你這個餅做大之後,財政部有沒有公司他都非去訂,不可能,就叫他訂嘛!訂嘛!就訂嘛!錢多了你財政部怎麼訂?沒地方怎麼會去抗議啦!每一個都增加,就皆大歡喜啦!"},{"start":9629.321,"end":9632.762,"text":"財政部可以在分配公司裡面訂一些條款說不拿還債亂花錢我們就扣減你補助款嘛那可以啊這個很合理啊所以"},{"start":9658.748,"end":9676.903,"text":"結論就是不要等財政部了請藍白立委們一定要合作一定要在這個會期通過財劃法反本因為這次不修過的話難保30年都過不了了中華民國就完蛋了我們地方政府就很可憐到底了謝謝"},{"start":9678.168,"end":9703.965,"text":"好 非常感謝我們黃耀輝黃教授謝謝我們這個會期是一定會修過求怪也不至於求怪大概兩三個月這個會期還有好幾個月我們一定會努力大家也知道我的別稱叫做金門坦克坦克就是遇到困難就是沒有困難好 那我們現在這個大家要有信心來這個"},{"start":9705.99,"end":9709.921,"text":"我們休息5分鐘回來以後我們就請羅志祥"},{"start":9710.95,"end":9711.29,"text":"國發會：法務部依序回應"},{"start":9771.387,"end":9774.489,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9803.492,"end":9805.453,"text":"公聽會：發言委員："},{"start":9814.183,"end":9818.246,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9841.492,"end":9842.833,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":9854.093,"end":9860.797,"text":"財政委員會第1屆第2會期財政部長"},{"start":9879.998,"end":9880.018,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9896.276,"end":9896.916,"text":"公聽會：發言委員："},{"start":9925.992,"end":9926.552,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":9952.498,"end":9968.791,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9973.975,"end":9974.575,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9991.844,"end":9992.084,"text":"主席"},{"start":10012.339,"end":10034.865,"text":"兩點壓力兩點壓力是不重要的沒有那麼大規則可以修正沒有那麼大規則可以修正沒有那麼大規則可以修正沒有那麼大規則可以修正沒有那麼大規則可以修正"},{"start":10041.763,"end":10042.143,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10088.709,"end":10092.572,"text":"我們現在繼續開會有的可能如果在洗手間的沒關係我們請這個羅志強"},{"start":10106.078,"end":10118.413,"text":"主席各位先進為了符合地方自治精神本席認為應該把財政權大幅調整還給地方政府"},{"start":10119.417,"end":10147.079,"text":"那現行財政收支劃分法已經超過25年那現在我們應該要重新的來評量所以國民黨團主張中央和地方的財源比例應回歸地方自治精神也就是六成中央四成地方的分配方式因為現行只有25%的稅收用於支應地方的財政"},{"start":10147.898,"end":10167.071,"text":"那麼這樣的做法其實我覺得對於地方的發展相當的不利所以應該讓中央跟地方我們一起努力的把資源分配的更妥適那麼能夠往前走一步本次修法中央要釋出5000億的經費給地方縣市"},{"start":10169.602,"end":10198.416,"text":"那在過去召開公聽會的時候我們的部長我也沒看到你有什麼特別的反對的意見那麼保持開放態度這是正確的那地方政府也對於所謂的擴大地方財源紛紛表示贊同所以立法院希望我們主張希望能夠將中央所掌控的15%的經費釋出能夠給地方的縣市政府來強化地方政府財政健全的收支劃分法"},{"start":10199.705,"end":10211.586,"text":"連民進黨的執政縣市、高雄跟台南派出的代表其實都不反對這樣的修法方向當然比例的調整可能各有不同的意見但修法方向基本上大家都贊同"},{"start":10212.818,"end":10232.086,"text":"也就是希望 只是說對於未來統籌分配款對於各地方政府分配要具有所謂的比例的公平性那這一點大家會有比較多的一些意見的討論我覺得這都是好事事實上1999年因為修憲精神當時修正了《財劃法》"},{"start":10233.847,"end":10256.207,"text":"其結果就是讓中央集權也更集錢所以25年來中央多拿了新台幣10兆元地方就看到後果就是留給地方地方的財政不斷地惡化 入不敷出賴清德自己總統自己也是從地方首長出生我是呼籲也要來一起響應財政轉型正義"},{"start":10259.19,"end":10286.445,"text":"所以財化法是地方制度法的一個財政的面向兩法都應該聯動修法那把中央過去本來該屬於地方的這些稅收這些收入能夠公平的還給地方那希望我們的賴清德總統能夠去想想過去他在臺南當市長身為地方首長的時候他的一個立場跟他的一個臺南的一個狀況"},{"start":10287.588,"end":10316.138,"text":"那當然現在中央除了將財劃法作為他今天來去對於地方政府有很多的一些坦白講就是有點可以指導的一個私房錢一樣那常常更出現中央請客地方買單的行為所以很多中央所定的政策其實常常都會變成說明知道地方財政困難還是要求地方買單那這些一方面"},{"start":10317.369,"end":10318.35,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":10336.587,"end":10353.915,"text":"這時候當下中央政府提供地方政府的財源大概分成三類一個是中央統籌分配款一個是一般性補助款一個是計劃性補助款但因為財化法到現在已經超過25年未修法所以也引起很多地方政府的批評"},{"start":10354.975,"end":10379.453,"text":"所以我們變成是說中央統籌分配款的方式的公平性也遭到很多的議論甚至一般性的補助款也受到很多的限制而計劃性補助款有時候就變成是看中央看地方怎麼爭取也看中央怎麼高興那最後身為台北市的立委我也希望能夠為台北市政府跟台北市民"},{"start":10379.973,"end":10380.554,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":10400.791,"end":10427.99,"text":"所以中央應該擴大中央統籌分配稅款把柄做大然後釋出中央給地方的財源來減輕地方財政的壓力那臺北市有3個主張啦一個是營業稅100%回饋地方財源其中50%按各地營利事業而分配另外50%納入中央統籌分配稅款那第二是保障地方的社福教育設施的一般性補助款"},{"start":10428.49,"end":10448.184,"text":"那不得少於所得稅總數10%﹑貨物稅總收入10%﹑計數那第三不能中央請客地方買單那這部分也希望將來在我們的財劃法的修正的過程當中以及中央在思考財政的政策的過程當中可以把這個地方的新生想進來謝謝 以上好 謝謝羅志強 羅委員好接著我們"},{"start":10456.411,"end":10457.231,"text":"哪一位基隆市政府"},{"start":10484.104,"end":10501.604,"text":"主席、委員、各位委員會的代表我認識基隆市政府基隆市政府我們有六大訴求第一方面本政府建議擴大中央統統分配稅的規模以提升地方財政的自主性第二"},{"start":10503.147,"end":10521.54,"text":"確保土著分配稅跟一般性補助款這次修法後不會低於修正施行前一年度的金額確保地方政府的財源第三建議將土地增值稅稅收全部還給直轄市政府以及縣市政府第四"},{"start":10523.322,"end":10549.221,"text":"統籌分配稅的公示以公示入法並且簡化公示第5 地方為了配合中央施政的項目現在是越來越多那中央也只補助第一年往後年度都要由地方自籌導致地方財政持續惡化雖然中央稱有一般性補助款 測算補助但是如果沒有基本的財政收支的差短"},{"start":10550.441,"end":10575.014,"text":"確實是沒有補助的所以本市認為中央在推行政策時應先載明經費的來源避免造成地方財政上的困難第6基隆市新竹市嘉義市三個省轄市我們在那個基本財政收支需要額的時候加上15%這個計算公式這次修法的時候應該維持省轄市額外的比例的加權計算謝謝"},{"start":10577.011,"end":10585.677,"text":"好,非常好,謝謝,謝謝我們金融社的代表,接著我們請臺南市的代表,配合政策宅民預算人,好"},{"start":10593.257,"end":10612.083,"text":"主席、各位委員及先進大家好有關財政收支劃分法的修正草案台南市建議中央統籌分配稅款計算室當中營利事業營業額的涉算權重應該降低並將科學園區所在地的產值以外加權重的方式來計算"},{"start":10615.961,"end":10632.587,"text":"現行中央統籌分配稅款計算室中營利事業營業額涉算權重高達50%查其系以總機構稅及登記所在地計算依財政部提供的資料查得本市112年營利事業營業額較110年增加457億元"},{"start":10638.709,"end":10662.635,"text":"但依國家科學及技術委員會統計資料庫查得南部科學園區臺南園區112年營業額較110年增加4938億元跟財政部的統計數據差距甚距主要是因為工廠總機構沒有登記在本市致使本市的統總分配稅款沒有享受到應有的貨配金額"},{"start":10663.675,"end":10677.631,"text":"所以臺灣市建議本市積極推動工業區開發引進民間資金及產業投資提升國家生產力肩負生產工廠周邊交通環境道路水電等基礎建設"},{"start":10678.872,"end":10697.881,"text":"及維護、教育及社會服務的經費及責任在財政部現行設算及工業產值未獲納入共識下未來南科營業額增加只會增加其總公司登記轄區的縣市權數對本市極為不公平原建議應將營利事業營業額設算權重降低"},{"start":10701.143,"end":10720.843,"text":"並將科學園區所在地產值以外加權重方式計算以平衡地方政府在盈利失業額未享有應有的貨配金額以上報告敬請指教謝謝謝謝我們台南市的代表新竹的立委也有跟我提到這一點好 謝謝接著我們請金門縣政府的代表"},{"start":10729.335,"end":10745.762,"text":"主席還有部長還有與會學者專家各位先進大家好那金門縣政府三點報告第一點感謝並請持續支持在金門縣連江縣增企菸酒稅收入減除激增費用後百分之八十分配各該縣"},{"start":10747.183,"end":10770.422,"text":"菸酒稅從1991年施行後造成中央稅收增加而金門縣財政短縮212億元那一直沒有依財化法第38條之一來彌補造成金門嚴重財政負擔那112年金門縣不得不停辦23項重大建設那總共超過金的100億元"},{"start":10771.923,"end":10788.974,"text":"行政院的修正版本以及這一次許多委員的修正版本都有把上開條文有納入請行政院及各位委員持續支持離島的建設發展第二是建立加重離島基礎建設之財源分配"},{"start":10790.816,"end":10808.404,"text":"本島許多縣市將軌道建設等列為發展重點但是離島有許多的基礎建設卻都還沒有完成例如金門機場與港口連接的道路只有完成三分之一新北的淡江大橋澎湖縣內灣的跨海大橋"},{"start":10813.629,"end":10830.787,"text":"它的建設跟管理費用都是中央負擔但是橋樑規模更大、工程難度及工程造價更高的金門大橋卻由金門縣負擔二分之一、將近50億元的工程經費之後的管理費用也是由金門縣負擔"},{"start":10832.208,"end":10858.433,"text":"那所以我們建議這一次修法能加重離島基礎建設之財源分配第三建議提供一定比例之財源供各縣市政府平均分配各縣市政府的基本的業務大致上是相同但只是業務量的數量不一樣建議可以比照公益採建的方式提供一定的財源供各縣市平均分配以上報告謝謝"},{"start":10860.566,"end":10877.241,"text":"好,謝謝我們陳國廷陳處長喔還有沒有其他縣市有要發表什麼意見好,如果沒有的話我們接著請這個中央的這個部會來回答第一個我們先請財政部莊部長"},{"start":10889.522,"end":10905.218,"text":"主席還有各位專家學者以及我們各地方政務代表以及各位在座的委員們大家好首先感謝陳昭偉召開今天有關財劃法的修正案的一個公聽會"},{"start":10906.119,"end":10906.519,"text":"財政部對立法院和財委會的決議尊重"},{"start":10924.165,"end":10925.245,"text":"財政部及主機總署"},{"start":10949.138,"end":10949.298,"text":"立法院議員"},{"start":10979.158,"end":10997.212,"text":"政府在這個會議中尤其是在第1次的8月的會議的時候把80幾個指標縮減為50幾個指標那在第二次會議的時候那地方政府的跟地方政府充分討論那更有進一步的一個初步的成果那當然對於支出的節流還有再生能源還有污染"},{"start":10997.452,"end":11000.193,"text":"在9月19財政部也提出了一份報告給立法院那在這個報告裡面我們也分析了相關的一些數據以及這幾年的一個情況那我們認為呢"},{"start":11023.979,"end":11051.364,"text":"我們兩次邀集會商分配指標那地方的旗艦已經縮小但是我們認為還是要持續的一個努力所以我們未來我們還是會同本部還是會同中央和地方機關會持續的來做討論那對於後續的財劃法的修正才能夠有一個更好的一個共識那第二個部分我們其實也討論到也包含今天的專家學者也都提到的事權的劃分必須要很明確"},{"start":11053.039,"end":11064.309,"text":"這樣才能夠有力的建立合理的一個財政的一個調整的一個機制這個部分的事權劃分明確對於收入的分配機制可以減少爭議而且財劃法的話事權的劃分的影響的層面也比較廣"},{"start":11070.114,"end":11098.445,"text":"所以它的檢討作業已不是一次就可以完成的所以這個部分是很重要的另外財政收支劃分的調整是攸關到財政資源的重分配必須要審慎的規劃那麼財政收支劃分的調整它是各級政府財政資源的一個重新分配我們必須要審視中央和地方事權劃分還有近年整體財政的一個情形除了要考慮地方的財政需要之外"},{"start":11099.085,"end":11116.263,"text":"中央的財政也要維持一個適度的韌性才能夠因應國際政經情勢的一個變化還有氣候變遷等等的不實的需要如果只是倉促的修法一旦改變現有的一個財政秩序恐怕會是另外一個分配不均的一個開始"},{"start":11117.884,"end":11130.008,"text":"讓再次的調整分配會更加的困難對國家的長遠的發展還有財政制度的穩定會有不利的一個影響所以我們認為還是要做過充分的討論凝聚共識我們再來審慎的一個規劃推動其次我要說明的中央和地方其實是一個夥伴的關係是個夥伴的關係我們一直希望是一個共榮共好"},{"start":11142.333,"end":11163.573,"text":"財化法歷經25年沒有修正行政院曾經5次提出修法版本但是因為沒有共識所以修法一直沒有能夠完成但是雖然財化法沒有修正但是在中央統籌分配稅款加上一般性的補助款以及計劃性的補助款中央對地方的財政挹注事實上是一直在成長以113年"},{"start":11166.295,"end":11173.663,"text":"和105年來比較的話中央統籌分配稅款加上一般性的補助款其實成長達到46.7%那在114年依照現行的預算案的"},{"start":11181.551,"end":11203.056,"text":"預算案我們送出來的預算案中央統籌分配稅款會比114年比113年會增加696億就是接近700億而一般性的補助款更增加200億所以兩者合計增加到了900億所以中央統籌分配稅款加上一般性補助款在114年的規模是有7240億"},{"start":11207.117,"end":11226.444,"text":"如果再加上重大計劃的一個計劃型的補助款至少每年都有2000多億所以中央對地方挹注每年的一個金額是逐年在提高而且7000多億加2000多億已經接近到兆元所以中央對地方財政挹注是一直不遺餘力"},{"start":11227.364,"end":11227.544,"text":"這是以上說明,謝謝"},{"start":11255.675,"end":11258.359,"text":"請行政院主席總措"},{"start":11276.118,"end":11289.883,"text":"主席各位先進在財化法雖然沒有修正中央能持續透過中央投資分配稅款及一般系補助款來持續協助這個數額已經從103年度的4,051億元到了114年度已經增加為7,241億元增加了3,190億元成長的幅度接近80%"},{"start":11303.567,"end":11325.961,"text":"另外如果再加上這個計劃型補助款有2900億左右那114年度我們中央屹住地方的財源就已經高達1151億元那已經大幅提升地方自治、地方自主、財政自主的部分那另外在各地方財政狀況的部分已經有顯著的改善"},{"start":11327.669,"end":11339.219,"text":"前面學者有提到說整體地方101年度稅入稅出的次制是有589億元到105年度已經轉為剩餘有41億元112年度的剩餘已經達到648億元那22個市縣的部分"},{"start":11349.827,"end":11349.847,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11372.628,"end":11398.913,"text":"在今審後,中央是有承接稅客收入大概1505億元但是也承接了相關的支出2892億元是收不抵支,就是淨減了1387億元另外中央也承接了債務也8000多億所以中央承接省府的收支並沒有獲益再來是"},{"start":11402.649,"end":11428.262,"text":"針對前面有提到就是說京省前後的比較問題那京省錢其實可以分為三大塊就是中央政府的收入大概佔60%左右那臺灣省政府大概佔11%那直轄市及縣市政府還有鄉鎮市這個部分大概佔了28%那京省市中央接收省府的收支"},{"start":11429.659,"end":11430.3,"text":"中央加省府"},{"start":11448.283,"end":11475.932,"text":"接受完之後現在目前就是75%左右那直轄市及縣市這個部分大概也是佔25%那支出的部分那今省錢也是分3塊中央大概佔59.2%臺灣省的部分是14%那直轄市及縣市政府的部分是大概接近27%那今省錢就是中央政府加臺灣省"},{"start":11476.832,"end":11503.935,"text":"政府﹖因為是中央接收了省府的支出嘛中央加省府的支出就是百分之七三左右那實際上是縣市政府大概百分之二十六點七那經審後我們一百一十四年度來看那這個比例中央本來是七十三的支出現在已經增為百分之七十六那地方的支出支出部分是百分之二十四、二十三點九那是"},{"start":11505.597,"end":11532.096,"text":"經審前後應該要同一個基礎比較所以中央並沒有說這個收入從60% 增為75%這個地方特別的聲明那如果現在說要求中央要釋出這個15%給地方那前面部長有提到基於這個錢要學於事權的移轉的原則所以相關支出應該要一臂來檢討以上報告謝謝我們主席總處 謝謝接著我們請內政部"},{"start":11545.94,"end":11573.757,"text":"主席各位與會先進,大家好的確地方的事權與財源的分配的確有一些彼此的聯動的關係那在我們地方制度法第18條就有規定以下列事項為直轄市自治事項第19條有規定以下列事項為縣市的自治事項然後在第20條我們就有規定說下列事項是地方的這個鄉鎮市的自治事項"},{"start":11574.497,"end":11602.604,"text":"那這些我們在第18條到第20條所定的地方知識事項都是一些原則性基本性的規定在這中間並無從得出中央與地方各項事項的權重要如何分配那中央地方各項的事權的具體分配是回歸到各個目的事業主管機關的法規裡頭那例如說地方制度法明定社會福利及環境保護為直轄市縣市及鄉鎮市"},{"start":11604.224,"end":11604.444,"text":"國發會 國家發展委員會"},{"start":11645.823,"end":11662.933,"text":"主席與會的先進與會的各位代表跟學者專家大家午安謝謝今天國發會還是很高興這次受邀請來這邊第二次公聽會所以也感謝召委跟財委會這樣繼續的"},{"start":11666.575,"end":11677.084,"text":"國財、中醫、廣納建研本會持續關注尊重各主政機關的演繹以及最後答應的決定"},{"start":11700.62,"end":11716.712,"text":"主席、各位先進、大家好法務部這邊報告有關財政收支劃分法它說方面分有國稅跟地方稅而且又有統籌分配稅款的相關規定關係到財政收入的重分配的重大事項"},{"start":11718.373,"end":11719.213,"text":"法制作業提供適當而必要的協助"},{"start":11748.544,"end":11760.402,"text":"好 謝謝法務部行政機關還有我們現場專家學長跟委員的發言都已經發言完畢有學者要做第二輪發言嗎"},{"start":11761.65,"end":11785.868,"text":"沒有齁好那綜合齁剛剛這個這個內政部齁主席總署齁呃相關說法齁現在我們中央已經一直有提高對地方政府的補助嘛所以更證明這個如果把地方的餅做大這個財源上是沒有問題的嘛不會影響到現在你們一直在給錢嘛那因為我們國家是法治國所以我們必須把所有事情制度化"},{"start":11786.348,"end":11790.089,"text":"國際政經局勢天天在改變,我們國家還是要改革跟進步,所以我想這個也不是拒絕修法的藉口"},{"start":11809.076,"end":11828.5,"text":"我們立法院的這個修法列車已經啟動了那當然我們相當的尊重行政院尊重財政部不過如果你們不跟上的話我們還是會繼續往前進行那剛剛聽到這個內政部有說了內政部的報告裡頭也沒有說出需要提出這個相關地方制法的修法"},{"start":11829.04,"end":11829.06,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11851.528,"end":11878.396,"text":"財政收支劃分法好好的修訂那我們還是希望財政部可以如果有機會還是提出來那如果沒提出來因為本期財政召委在下一次是兩個禮拜或10月21號那個禮拜我們就開始啟動修法的這個程序我們就開始會把委員的版本開始進行修訂那如果行政院沒有辦法在財政部行政院沒有辦法在那個時候送進來的話我們沒有辦法再等待了"},{"start":11878.976,"end":11896.313,"text":"好那依照立法院自宣行使法第58條規定我們會因爲公聽會結束後10日內終結後10日內依出席者所提供之正反意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者所以我們會把今天與會者所有的寶貴"},{"start":11897.894,"end":11921.903,"text":"發言的意見作為未來修法的參考我剛剛有看到好幾個縣市有提出意見然後我們會會編成社送交本院全體委員及今天初列席提供建議的貴賓參閱那如果各位貴賓不管是專家學者還是各地的財政處還有或者是我們的相關部會還有其他的書面意見或相關資料也請盡速提供給我們我們會併入這一次公聽會的報告"},{"start":11923.664,"end":11923.884,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11961.285,"end":11962.568,"text":"主席"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第1次公聽會（事由：召開「財政收支劃分法修正草案」公聽會）","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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呃,這跟社會住宅不一樣。我們全部的標題叫百萬租屋家庭。所以不是百萬社宅。是百萬租屋家庭。所以剛剛說如果以你們現在滾動式的調整的話,如果為了要維持這個承諾,我想要問一下,那接下來每年都要編將近300億的租屋補貼嗎?"},{"start":97.853,"end":102.036,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議．立法院第12屆第3會期內政委員會議．立法院第4會期內政委員會議"},{"start":120.111,"end":129.908,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。厲清德總統選前的一個承諾這50萬戶可是部長上次我們卓院長在院會的時候說這是廉價的承諾你覺得現在這個承諾到底是廉價還是高價?"},{"start":131.462,"end":138.724,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":152.808,"end":167.639,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例四、殯葬管理條例五、殯葬管理條例六、殯葬管理條例七、殯葬管理條例八、殯葬管理條例九、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理條例十、殯葬管理"},{"start":182.629,"end":184.77,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":200.64,"end":202.421,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":219.994,"end":241.87,"text":"一萬兩千六百塊可以租到的是有電梯還是沒電梯幾坪的房子嗎?可以嗎?區位是什麼?屋齡是多少?請問這樣子的資料部長你們可以辨別嗎?這無法辨別因為我自己提供的資料讓他們填寫的資料就不包含了所以這個數字的參考我就沒有意義啦就沒有做到所謂政策希望我們租屋市場透明啊"},{"start":242.09,"end":243.971,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":269.901,"end":295.855,"text":"另外我也想要確認一下這個內政部承諾蓋25萬戶社會住宅但是現在中央自己新辦而且已經完工可以招租的房屋是多少?因為我上次問的時候部長還是答不出來喔是跟委員報告你如果現在談到是中央跟興建中央的中央興建而且興建的不是興建是中央完工的對其實完工的部分現在就是只有這個林口還有最近要報完工的靜岡好市"},{"start":296.195,"end":310.325,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：立法院第1次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全"},{"start":320.342,"end":329.282,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":331.687,"end":346.293,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第"},{"start":360.839,"end":385.651,"text":"我希望你們可以承諾年輕的朋友們或是需要居住正義的朋友們這個賴清德總統的政見的支票承諾請問我現在還是帶來請問部長你願意不願意簽一百萬戶的這個承諾有收到五十萬戶的租金補貼和二十五萬戶包租貸款二十五萬戶的社宅請問你們願意承諾嗎"},{"start":386.707,"end":397.821,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":407.408,"end":422.479,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第"},{"start":435.509,"end":444.584,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:50:11 - 12:57:39","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155202","gazette":{"lineno":997,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（12時50分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好，我想針對上次總質詢提出有關於居住正義相關的問題，上次院長有一些不敢承諾的地方，這邊要再特別請教一下部長。第一，現在你們租屋補貼的金額是多少？這4年預估總共多少？"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。4年嗎？還是今年？"],["廖委員偉翔：這4年。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們是逐年看人數，以接下來這個階段大概就是以75萬戶的標準來編列，因為每年會看最後滾動的結果。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以現在已經核准了將近66萬戶，今年補貼金額大概已經超過265億元，這4年大概也超過八百多億元。請問，這樣子我們可以說賴總統50萬戶社會住宅已經達標了嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：沒有，我們講的百萬租屋裡面，租金補貼是一塊，但是直接興建和包租代管是另外一塊。"],["廖委員偉翔：25萬戶、25萬戶、50萬戶我知道，我是說這百萬戶裡面等於50萬戶已經達標了，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們可以宣示已經達到50萬戶社會住宅對嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：這跟社會住宅不一樣，我們全部的標題叫百萬租屋家庭，不是百萬社宅，是百萬租屋家庭。"],["廖委員偉翔：剛剛說如果依你們現在滾動式調整，未來要維持這個承諾，每年都要編列將近300億元的租屋補貼嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：這當然會隨著社宅和包租代管的逐步成長，我們會逐步控制這個額度。"],["廖委員偉翔：有預估大概具體的數字嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：這還沒有辦法，因為每年滿18歲的年輕人還會進來，但是有一些會出去。"],["廖委員偉翔：但現在看起來至少每年是300億元，這麼多錢買了賴清德總統選前的一個承諾，這50萬戶，可是部長，上次卓院長在院會說這是廉價的承諾，你覺得現在這個承諾到底是廉價還是高價？"],["劉部長世芳：承諾就是承諾，沒有所謂廉價或高價，而是說我們朝著居住正義興建社會住宅當中，它本來就是逐步逐步慢慢往前，包括年齡層的分布。"],["廖委員偉翔：我們回來剛剛討論到這50萬戶租金補貼的部分，其實當初的政策目標就是希望可以達到租屋市場透明化，可是上次部長在院會可能也搞錯了，以為是在講購屋的實價登錄，但我講的其實是租屋的實價登錄，現在只有十萬四千多筆，現在高達65萬戶，等於來回相差55萬戶，現在網站上租屋的實價登錄還有辦法繼續優化嗎？還可以讓租屋市場更透明嗎？還是說就讓它爛在那邊？"],["吳署長欣修：其實這也是為什麼當時在讓民眾申請的時候，我們還是有守住個資的承諾，所以我們現在是用學區制，就是用比較大範圍的方式來公布。"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，你們現在去識別化，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對，去識別化，然後用區域的方式來處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：基本上你去識別化等於這些數字根本沒什麼用，你要把它擺在那裡看，我們就來說，基本上你們不到總量的20%之外，我覺得數據庫本身不足，也非常不完備，而且非常不透明，我們就聊聊剛剛說的，你說去識別化，部長，我可以說1萬2,600元可以租到的是有電梯還是沒電梯、幾坪的房子嗎？可以嗎？區位是什麼？屋齡是多少？請問這樣的資料部長可以辨別嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：無法辨別，因為我們要他們填寫的資料就不包含這些。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這個數字的參考就沒有意義了，沒有做到政策希望租屋市場透明啊！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：我們第一次這樣用的時候，其實很多大學的學務長覺得這樣對學區的學子幫忙很大。"],["廖委員偉翔：你要確定耶！其實這個我們跟民間團體都有討論。"],["劉部長世芳：民間團體跟委員接觸我們都了解，未來包括你所說的屋子的年齡或有沒有電梯，我們會加到問卷裡面。"],["廖委員偉翔：我希望這部分你們可以朝著政策目標去改進，希望真的達到租屋市場透明化。另外，我也想確認一下，內政部承諾蓋25萬戶社會住宅，但是現在中央自己興辦而且已經完工可以招租的房屋是多少？因為我上次問的時候，部長還是答不出來。"],["吳署長欣修：如果現在談到中央興建……"],["廖委員偉翔：中央的，不是興建，是中央完工的。"],["吳署長欣修：完工的部分現在就只有林口和最近要報完工的龍岡好室。"],["廖委員偉翔：林口扣掉選手村之後你們只有完成大概一千八百多戶，這25萬戶裡面，你們自己規劃中央要負責多少戶？"],["吳署長欣修：這25萬戶裡面，我們大概至少13萬戶以上。"],["廖委員偉翔：剩下的要靠地方來幫你們蓋嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是，因為本來就是中央地方一起來，不會是只有中央的責任。"],["廖委員偉翔：中央和地方的確要一起實現這個責任，但我還是要問，你有辦法保證4年任期內可以完成25萬戶的達標，是可以招租的嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我們是到2030年，我們的部分，住都中心是以每年1萬5到2萬戶的速度進行發包和開工，所以一定可以澈底……"],["廖委員偉翔：基本上我們期待的居住正義就是希望不管在社宅數量上、租屋市場透明化，當然還有購屋的部分，可是我們希望可以多元、可負擔的、有保障的，但是現在還是要問一下部長，因為在上次總質詢的時候，我希望你們可以承諾年輕朋友們或需要居住正義的朋友們賴清德總統政見的支票承諾，我現在還是帶來，請問部長你願不願意簽？100萬戶的承諾，有說到50萬戶的租金補貼，25萬戶的包租代管和25萬戶的社宅，請問你們願意承諾嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：簽名的是卓榮泰啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：我可以改，沒關係，那我下次再拿一個你的名字來，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想這樣沒有意義。"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得有，因為……"],["劉部長世芳：第一，它上面寫的是百萬社會住宅，但是剛剛署長跟各位報告是百萬戶租屋家庭的扶助計畫。"],["廖委員偉翔：我已經把內容細節寫在裡面了，有50萬戶的租屋補貼、25萬戶包租代管、25萬戶的社宅，我想內容沒有問題，端看你們有沒有這個決心，因為過去承諾的居住正義和社會住宅全部跳票，我今天為什麼要做這個動作？不是沒有意義，而是要看你們有多少決心，不是用這種數字來荒唐的說已經超過50萬戶了，好不好？我希望部長可以一起努力。"],["劉部長世芳：我們很務實的在推進百萬戶租屋家庭扶助計畫。"],["廖委員偉翔：我會持續追蹤，看你們所謂的務實進度是怎樣。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的督促。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員。","接下來請何欣純委員，何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","游顥委員，游顥委員，游顥委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","羅智強委員，羅智強委員，羅智強委員不在。","陳亭妃委員，陳亭妃委員，陳亭妃委員不在。","登記發言的委員除不在場者，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員高金素梅、傅崐萁總召所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:05:31","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:49:45+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155201","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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»:謝謝主席有請部長跟國土署署長。"},{"start":12.233,"end":22.317,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":41.044,"end":42.165,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":56.821,"end":63.964,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":73.048,"end":89.103,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":99.532,"end":102.673,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":122.749,"end":138.715,"text":"三人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案�"},{"start":140.856,"end":147.684,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案案件,審查委員審查委員吳修正草案案件,審查委員吳修正草案案件,審查委員吳修正草案案件,審查委員吳修正草案案件,"},{"start":161.699,"end":169.604,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":187.415,"end":189.396,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":213.044,"end":223.849,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":242.799,"end":253.393,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":258.559,"end":269.587,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文"},{"start":274.631,"end":276.494,"text":"二條之一條文修正草案案案件,審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":292.247,"end":302.013,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第"},{"start":316.161,"end":317.062,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:44:14 - 12:49:45","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155201","gazette":{"lineno":981,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時44分）謝謝主席，有請部長和國土署吳署長。"],["主席：請劉部長、吳署長。"],["劉部長世芳：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好、署長好。我們都知道國土計畫法要上路了，過去管理我們非都土地的區域計畫法將會被國土功能分區所取代，明年4月上路以後，我們也引頸期盼，因為要推動原鄉14萬棟蓋在非建地上的建物合法化。我今天要特別來問另外一個問題，因為我們原鄉部落不是統統位在非都，我們有142個部落是位於都市計畫區，問題就來了，他們現在每天都在聽：哇！原鄉要怎麼做、怎麼做，他們就很緊張。可是還是有幸運的，舉個例子來講，像烏來區因為是水源特定區，所以北水特分署也不得不為了維護它的水源去做了一些事情，像是它們自己訂了一個原保地興建自用住宅的審查要點，協助它們未來可以興建、改建、重建自己的自用住宅，而且也編列經費給區公所，協助分攤這些需要的花費。現在我想請教署長，扣掉烏來4個部落，還有138個部落是位於都市計畫區內，這些既有建物要怎樣才能合法？"],["吳署長欣修：這個問題的確由來很久，過去在都市計畫通盤檢討裡面，多多少少都有嘗試要解決這個問題，但是每次遇到特定保護的標的時，大致上在這裡面都會有衝突，所以都市計畫本身是你原有既有合法房屋是可以，所以現在剩下的關鍵就是既有合法房屋的認定這件事情，未來在國土計畫裡面有原住民土地使用管制這個概念存在的話，接下來我們可以來促請各個縣市政府，就這個部分看是不是在都市計畫區內也同步來檢討。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝署長，我希望國土署也要盡力來協助，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我剛剛談到烏來，我知道你剛講的通盤檢討，它們的第三次通盤檢討也是在二通之後的十幾年，其實到現在也還沒結束。像我接下來要問的阿里山鄉，它們連三通都還沒有，光是二通，最後一次二通是因應莫拉克風災，所以要透過縣市政府的通盤檢討，你剛剛自己也講很困難。我們來看一下，像這個是阿里山代表會的副主席，因為主席是漢人，副主席是原住民，他們反抗的聲音就越來越大，為什麼？因為就我剛講的，他們以為國土計畫法上路之後，他們就可以去調整，可是就他們所了解，原來國土計畫法並沒有幫助他們解決問題，現在為什麼他們反抗的聲音會越來越大？你要知道，因為他們其實在民國71年被劃設到都市計畫區，理由是什麼你聽聽看，為了要發展觀光，第二個是因為達邦村是公所所在地，所以把它納入都計的要件。可是他們覺得這個理由太牽強、太離譜，因為直到現在過了那麼多年，達邦並非遊樂區，而且公所也已經在民國93年遷到樂野，所以他們一直希望能不能協助他們，因為他們太痛苦了，原民會可以補助各個部落蓋文化聚會所，可是你要知道達邦和特富野這兩個部落，因為位在都市計畫區而沒有辦法申請，它們目前是阿里山鄉所有部落唯二沒有聚會所的部落，只因為編定不符。署長，這個要不要幫忙解決？"],["吳署長欣修：其實之前我們在有些縣市的都市計畫區已經有協助的案例。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：表示可以協助，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分我們再來協助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：感謝，我希望內政部國土署可以就我剛才所提的這幾件事情，提出一個解決策略和進程，就是位於都計區的原鄉部落既有建物，我們如何幫助它合法，阿里山的達邦、特富野位在都市計畫區希望解編。"],["吳署長欣修：應該不是解編，是協助它有一些用地是合法的，這個我們來協助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，非常感謝，謝謝署長，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","接下來請賴士葆委員，賴士葆委員，賴士葆委員不在。","王育敏委員，王育敏委員，王育敏委員不在。","蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","傅崐萁總召，傅崐萁總召，傅崐萁總召不在。","黃健豪委員，黃健豪委員，黃健豪委員不在。","請廖偉翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:06:00","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:44:09+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155200","委員名稱":"廖先翔","duration":360,"start_time":"2024-10-07T12:38:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493b17338d4a058accccc55309ce9652759d736de4ad1ada90a8255030c01a61e3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.50284375,"end":7.658468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.77659375,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.61159375,"end":11.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.978468750000001,"end":13.480343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.649093750000002,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.25221875,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.876593750000001,"end":17.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.03659375,"end":20.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.820968750000002,"end":27.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.351593750000003,"end":29.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.08534375,"end":32.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.58284375,"end":34.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.236593750000004,"end":46.690343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.415968750000005,"end":51.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.76159375,"end":50.571593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.36471875,"end":61.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.59096875,"end":65.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.74221875,"end":78.78659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.01034375,"end":88.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.18159375,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.61971875,"end":99.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.92284375000001,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.93096875,"end":100.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.92659375000001,"end":103.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.72784375,"end":113.11034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.16096875000001,"end":114.79784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.64159375000001,"end":117.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.75096875000001,"end":122.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.43784375000001,"end":128.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.69846875000002,"end":138.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.57471875000002,"end":139.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.38034375,"end":141.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.47721875000002,"end":142.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.04659375,"end":144.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.52721875,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.75846875000002,"end":160.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.76534375,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.52034375000002,"end":170.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.90721875,"end":174.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.07534375,"end":177.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.91034375,"end":181.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.09534375,"end":182.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.15846875000003,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.36034375,"end":193.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.80659375000002,"end":196.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.04659375,"end":198.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.91971875000002,"end":203.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.91471875000002,"end":206.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.01159375,"end":207.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.71159375000002,"end":224.04659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.93096875,"end":210.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.38409375,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.91471875000002,"end":235.90971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.04471875000002,"end":238.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.77034375000002,"end":238.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.74471875,"end":252.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.95534375000003,"end":241.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.39659375000002,"end":253.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.05034375000002,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.37909375000004,"end":258.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.52221875000004,"end":259.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.51784375,"end":260.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.17159375,"end":262.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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沒關係您署長您說明一下現在的問題是怎麼樣那我們可以做怎樣的改善跟委員報告其實現在的狀況就是說"},{"start":175.094,"end":203.202,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案的過程中大概尤其是人民陳情案很多民眾還是會繼續爭取自己的權利即便他在市都委會沒有通過他還是現行規定還是允許他到內政部來審議所以這其實非常多的人陳案其實是造成整個程序很冗長那內政部現在這十幾年來其實都做了一件事就是允許通盤檢討做階段式的發佈也就是說比較有共識沒有問題也沒有人陳的"},{"start":204.022,"end":206.164,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 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- 12:44:09","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155200","gazette":{"lineno":963,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（12時38分）謝謝召委，一樣幫我邀請劉部長，吳署長也一起，我要問都市計畫法。"],["主席：請劉部長、吳署長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：部長好，都市計畫是我們業管非常重要的業務，部長擔任過高雄市的副市長，所以你應該也非常清楚都市計畫法明定各地的都市計畫必須每五年通盤檢討一次，最久五年，三至五年，我想確認一下，部長在擔任高雄市副市長的時候，這是你督導的業務嗎？高雄市政府有沒有每五年檢討一次？"],["劉部長世芳：我們不是全市，但是在縣市合併的時候有某一些地方需要有一些都市計畫的通盤檢討，我們會按照開發的進度通盤檢討。"],["廖委員先翔：你們真的有按照期限每五年做一次通盤檢討？"],["劉部長世芳：可作參考，理論上我們在通盤檢討的時候，因為有新的開發計畫、有其他的都市計畫變更，我想這會最重要，五年是最高的年限。"],["廖委員先翔：所以實務上應該很少有地方政府真的每五年在每個都市計畫區做一次都市計畫的通盤檢討，當然，通盤檢討對地方建設的影響或許不會很大，因為地方政府在建設的時候允許個案變更，個案變更一般來說原則上都會優先處理、優先審議，通盤檢討影響比較大的一般是民眾的權益，因為民眾在提都市計畫變更只能在通盤檢討的時候提出意見。既然法律明定五年要檢討一次，我以汐止都市計畫為例，汐止的第三次都市計畫通盤檢討在民國103年底啟動，光新北市政府自己就大概花了兩年多的時間才完成市都委會的審議，之後送內政部，結果到現在還沒有核定，光從啟動到核定，現在還沒核定喔！就十年的時間了！比法定五年要檢討一次的時間還久，我想這應該不會是個案的問題，應該是許多縣市的都市計畫檢討都發生這樣的問題，請署長說明一下現在的問題是怎樣，我們可以怎樣改善？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，現在的狀況就是說過程中，尤其是人民陳情案，很多民眾還是會繼續爭取自己的權益，即便他在市都委會沒有通過，現行規定還是允許他到內政部來審議，所以非常多的人陳案造成程序很冗長，內政部這十幾年來其實都做了一件事，就是允許通盤檢討做階段式的發布，也就是說比較有共識、沒有問題、沒有人陳的，我們就先請縣市政府發布。"],["廖委員先翔：有啊！我們十年才要第一階段發布。"],["吳署長欣修：所以我才報告說在中間很多案子還是有一些爭議性。第二，我們在這個過程中，如果人陳的意見是非屬於都委會範疇內的，我們都逕予排除，這樣其實才會加速，當然，新北市的狀況在過程中其實相對比其他縣市複雜，因為新北平均每個通檢案的人陳數量非常非常多，比起其他縣市來講高很多。"],["廖委員先翔：我們其實也沒有必要討論太細，或者個案的情況，因為每個個案發展情況都差不多，都有很多的人陳，確實法令就擺在那邊，但是我們實務上卻沒有辦法達到法令的標準，我覺得有其客觀的因素存在，但我想都市計畫在地方的都市計畫委員會就已經審過一次了，到了內政部國土署的都市計畫委員會又要再審一次，其實是有兩層的專家學者在做這樣的審議，實務上也常常發生10個學者有11種意見，地方學者的派流和中央學者的法系可能不一樣，都有不同的意見，造成一樣的東西審了兩次，時間又非常冗長。"],["吳署長欣修：我了解委員所說的狀況。"],["廖委員先翔：常常又會有一些大哉問的問題，你也非常清楚。"],["吳署長欣修：其實大致上現在部都委會的做法就是去檢視這些案子是否可行。"],["廖委員先翔：我覺得最簡單的部都委會的權責、責任和義務，就是去檢視市都委會的審議過程中有沒有重大的缺失，因為這是地方自治、地方的事情，地方要變更，如果它沒有出現重大違反法令的瑕疵，我認為部的都委會應該要充分尊重市都委會的意見。以上我所講的情況署長都非常清楚，包括我這次也提都市計畫法修正，其實很簡單一個問題就是時間的問題而已，每個人活在這世上的時間有限，我們真的沒有辦法每個人在做都市計畫變更的時候等個幾年、幾年、幾年。麻煩大家一起加油，謝謝部長，謝謝署長。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。","接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:06:20","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:38:01+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155199","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","duration":380,"start_time":"2024-10-07T12:31:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4933e0126a64f653473cc55309ce9652759d736de4ad1ada90a5b5cf774a2689c845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.920343750000001,"end":10.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.387843750000002,"end":14.087843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.35784375,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.083468750000002,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.399093750000002,"end":35.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.89034375,"end":38.657843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.02909375,"end":43.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.63596875,"end":44.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.985968750000005,"end":47.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.46659375,"end":48.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.05284375,"end":50.976593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.17909375,"end":62.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.789093750000006,"end":69.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.84284375,"end":91.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.98284375,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.69159375000001,"end":93.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.07534375,"end":96.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.82596875,"end":98.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.58096875000001,"end":102.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.67721875000001,"end":106.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.30971875,"end":109.73534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.30909375,"end":124.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.10846875000001,"end":126.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.25159375000001,"end":132.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.00596875000002,"end":135.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.11096875,"end":138.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.43971875,"end":141.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.74721875,"end":143.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.45159375,"end":145.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.79721875,"end":151.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.31534375,"end":170.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.70721875,"end":156.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.28284375,"end":176.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.44221875000002,"end":180.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.57221875000002,"end":222.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.45534375000003,"end":200.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.53096875,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.22284375,"end":203.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.62909375,"end":246.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.13159375,"end":248.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.10596875000002,"end":249.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.03409375,"end":257.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.79659375,"end":259.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.64034375,"end":261.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.15471875000003,"end":265.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.98096875000005,"end":274.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.85721875,"end":279.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.44721875,"end":281.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.99534375,"end":284.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.01596875,"end":288.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.25596875,"end":292.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.09909375,"end":308.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.71034375,"end":296.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.06284375,"end":341.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.65346875,"end":337.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.71596875,"end":342.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.98596875000004,"end":345.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.12471875,"end":355.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.44096875,"end":347.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.84034375000005,"end":356.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.14409375,"end":362.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.22784375000003,"end":361.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.72971875,"end":375.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.87659375000004,"end":366.92721875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- 12:38:01","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155199","gazette":{"lineno":945,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（12時31分）謝謝召委、我們所有公務部門及各位立委，請部長。"],["主席：請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：吳委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：部長，我簡短的請教你，因為上個月9月30日在我的轄區，土城清水派出所所長劉宗鑫在晚間進行臨檢，遇到毒駕而不幸殉職，讓大家非常不捨，尤其他過去在地方執行勤務非常認真，包括擔任所長的績效也非常好，不管是查緝毒品或詐欺，他的績效都是非常好，這樣優秀的警察人員發生憾事，針對後續要如何協助他，不管是後事，包括撫卹金的部分，第一，有無符合因公殉職的最高標準；第二，除了撫卹金之外，過世能不能進警察公墓，這也是需要內政部協助；再者，他的遺孀還有兩個小孩要養，是不是需要由公務部門……尤其部長，我知道你親自到現場捻香致意，後續要如何協助他的家屬，以及兩個小孩的養育問題，我們要如何妥善安排？我知道他的遺孀工作也不是很穩定，在這種情形下，我們能否給予實質的幫助？"],["劉部長世芳：感謝吳委員，這位劉姓所長非常認真，也非常優秀，對於他不幸殉職，在警政系統裡面已經有說明，第一，他符合因公殉職，我們會用最高的標準來幫他爭取。第二，警政署也同意讓他入祀警察公墓，這都謝謝吳委員一路上幫他們爭取，我到現場捻香的時候也碰到他的爸爸媽媽，也知道遺孀有兩個年幼的小孩，未來年幼的小孩在教育上面或其他的養護上面，對於現在遺孀在私人機構工作，是不是比較不穩定，我也同意她要扶養年幼的小孩必須要有穩定的工作，所以現在我們已經請其他公務機關，就我能力所及的範圍內協助當中，所以委員也可以將她的學經歷提供給我們參考。今天是頭七，我們會向委員報告，跟他的遺孀和爸爸媽媽來報告，看要怎麼處理比較好，但現在我們還是希望先將喪葬儀式圓滿地完成，讓家裡面能夠安心，未來的工作部分，我有答應要協助，這一點請委員可以放心。"],["吳委員琪銘：感謝部長，後事之後就是他的遺孀和小朋友要怎樣妥善照顧。"],["劉部長世芳：感謝委員菩薩心腸。"],["吳委員琪銘：非常感謝。我們看到這次是新興的毒品，新興的毒品列入三級，但是三級的刑責又太低，是不是能夠提升到二級？因為毒品危害整個社會，這是非常嚴重的，所以是不是能夠邀請法務部各單位共同來研議，看看能不能提升到二級。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，不只是針對這個案子，其他也有很多毒犯或吸毒的人，依托咪酯的部分，本來在7、8月的時候，法務部已經公告為三級毒品，但是我們警政單位認為現在危害社會治安的影響太大，希望能夠提升為二級毒品。我已經跟法務部長提過，我們短時間內會把文送給法務部，讓法務部召集各地方縣市政府或各地方主管機關，包括衛福部，因為它也是一種麻醉藥品，如果能夠提升為二級毒品，對於遏止吸依托咪酯造成社會治安危害會有比較大的效果，我們會發文請法務部審查。"],["吳委員琪銘：我們朝這個方向努力。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為你如果不提升為二級，無法遏止毒品，而且毒駕的刑責一定要加重，否則會害到很多公務部門，尤其警察同仁。"],["劉部長世芳：我們也在很短的時間內，將這兩件事上面黃姓藥頭逮捕到案，但是對臺灣社會治安影響這麼大的毒品，我們會繼續跟法務部來加強。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員。","接下來請廖先翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:05:51","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:31:31+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155198","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","duration":351,"start_time":"2024-10-07T12:25:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493e8eec2937da57981cc55309ce9652759d736de4ad1ada90a9eca1244ea1315045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.61221875,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.333468750000002,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.08846875,"end":11.320343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.164093750000003,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.294718750000001,"end":13.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.64846875,"end":18.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.817218750000002,"end":26.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.364093750000002,"end":32.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.254093750000003,"end":55.634093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.37971875,"end":37.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.720343750000005,"end":44.445968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.04346875,"end":57.338468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.916593750000004,"end":59.835968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.81909375,"end":65.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.59034375,"end":89.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.61221875000001,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.90721875,"end":96.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.06221875,"end":109.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.80284375000001,"end":135.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.38971875000001,"end":146.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.60409375,"end":140.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.91096875,"end":155.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.53846875000002,"end":186.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.02721875,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.79409375,"end":192.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.02284375000002,"end":279.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.56096875000003,"end":280.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.84346875,"end":285.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.77534375,"end":313.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.53846875,"end":290.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.97346875,"end":349.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.06471875,"end":324.45284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.503,"end":20.467,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":28.687,"end":31.089,"text":"一條之一條之一條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":43.641,"end":65.172,"text":"一條的意見我們也尊重但是呢如果是全臺灣都一起適用的話反而會破壞現在所謂的這個這個容積貸金來取得私有公保地的這樣子的一個政策那可以照各縣市去做調整嗎我們已經我們已經有了解各縣市這樣的狀況了那第二個殯葬管理條例現在要這個修正您個人覺得可以支持嗎"},{"start":65.792,"end":89.586,"text":"我剛有跟很多委員說明過第一個就是殯葬管理條例在幫助這個中低收入戶其實中央跟地方還有各位民代的意見大家都相同但是最主要就是財政的部分是回歸到縣市地方政府要吸收所以我們在22個縣市地方政府所問的意見都不一定完全相同包括台中市"},{"start":90.026,"end":109.143,"text":"一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案。 »: 包括臺中市也是一樣我知道民政局一定會希望不要嘛因為他希望增加收入嘛那社會局的態度當然是希望當然不用他出錢他當然是能夠多多受惠有更多的民眾受惠當然是最好的但是我還是希望在第十屆第三會期關係文書包括部長本人"},{"start":109.884,"end":113.826,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":127.372,"end":138.396,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":155.742,"end":157.743,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":174.87,"end":180.915,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":193.126,"end":195.909,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":212.95,"end":220.014,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":241.104,"end":261.304,"text":"有,我能夠感受到您所說的一些困境吼。那我們還是希望因為現在可以看到包括有一些財政紀律反而沒有很好的縣市政府他有去做這樣子的一個免收。那縣市財政紀律很好的剩很多錢的地方政府反而他卻要收錢。我們還是希望有這個機會不管是免收"},{"start":261.924,"end":279.382,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16"},{"start":282.814,"end":293.379,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員"},{"start":303.963,"end":305.445,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。netesa"},{"start":323.903,"end":326.385,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:25:40 - 12:31:31","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155198","gazette":{"lineno":922,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時25分）請劉部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。我剛剛一早有提案說明，包括都市計畫法以及殯葬管理條例，都市計畫法的部分，你可以認同嗎？容積代金制度不要受地區限制。"],["劉部長世芳：我們希望維持原來條文上面的規範。"],["羅委員廷瑋：照原來的就對了？"],["劉部長世芳：如果個別的縣市地方政府提出來的話，一定有它的意見，我們也尊重，但是如果全臺灣都一體適用的話，反而會破壞現在容積代金來取得私有公保地的政策。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以照各縣市去調整嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們已經有了解各縣市的狀況了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：第二個，殯葬管理條例現在要修正，你個人覺得可以支持嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛有跟很多委員說明過，第一，殯葬管理條例在幫助中低收入戶其實中央和地方及各位民代的意見大概都相同，但是最主要財政的部分是回歸到縣市地方政府要吸收，所以我們在22個縣市地方政府問的意見都不一定完全相同，包括臺中市也是一樣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，你有問過民政局，民政局一定希望不要，它希望增加收入；社會局的態度不用它出錢的話，當然是希望能夠多多受惠，有更多的民眾受惠當然是最好的。在第10屆第3會期的關係文書，包括部長本人、屏東縣周春米縣長、表態參選臺南市長的陳亭妃委員及表態參選高雄市長的許智傑委員、賴瑞隆委員都曾經共同提案過，代表這個案子基本上沒有太大的問題，大家都應該希望苦民所苦一起來努力，而當劉部長在當立委的時候提案推動，怎麼會變成劉部長現在這個時段就不願意去推呢？我想這個部分還是希望……"],["劉部長世芳：我們在推動的過程當中需要跟地方政府再多作協商，我們上一次是屆期不續審，而且在政黨協商的時候，林為洲委員也提到要保留，我們就尊重他保留的意見，因為可能每個地方縣市政府提出來的意見都不容易整合，這是我們現在碰到的困境。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，這是一個你很好發揮理想的時候、身體力行的時刻，希望你能繼續推動。考量地方財政狀況，部長說有跟地方溝通，到底是要免收還是要補貼？作法不太一樣，過程中就會有很大的差別，未來甚至可能不要免收，內政部編列一個預算來補貼各縣市政府來達到中低收有這個機會受惠。"],["劉部長世芳：現在會變成雙重標準，第一，低收入戶的部分，就是縣市地方政府自行處理，中低收入戶的部分如果用這樣的方式，會造成在財政收支劃分上面變成三種不同的規範，反而會治絲益棼。第二，剛剛羅委員所提到的部分，在衛福部所主政的社會救助法，喪葬是以補貼為主，所以我們現在的免收，站在內政部和下面很多縣市地方政府的民政單位來講的話，如果是免收的話，等於它們在地方縣市，包括鄉鎮市公所，它們在財政的收跟支方面就變成要向下修正，恐怕縣市地方政府，包括鄉鎮市公所都要能夠體察這樣的規範，我們在整合上面會比較容易，但是目前為止我們確實碰到這個困境。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有，我能夠感受到你所說的一些困境，因為我們可以看到，現在有一些財政紀律反而沒有很好的縣市政府免收，財政紀律很好的、剩很多錢的地方政府卻要收錢。我們還是希望有這個機會，不管是免收還是補貼，甚至是減免、部分酌收，任何一個方法，能夠有這個機會去全國統一，還是仰賴中央內政部能夠努力。這個部分後續有沒有一個進展或期程能夠繼續溝通？其他縣市都全部溝通完畢了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：22個縣市其實都溝通完畢，但是22個縣市大概有22種不同的答案，這就是我們現在碰到最大的困擾，所以我還是一樣，我們的立場和方向都一樣，但是怎樣讓各縣市地方政府，包括一些財政收支水平比較不高的部分也願意來體認這個狀況，怎樣讓它更公平的方式來取得這方面的進展，我想這是我們碰到比較大的困擾。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我最後還是要補充，我雖然來自六都臺中，但是臺中還是有這樣的需求，我們看到很多的邊緣戶、特殊境遇家庭，甚至中低收家庭，也是有遇過透過基層里長反映，他們可能在喪葬事宜上有需要極力的幫助，民間也都有很多這樣的慈善會一起來協助。我們還是希望政府有相關的配套來一起關心這些特殊境遇家庭、中低收家庭，一起來幫助他們最後一程，政府來幫他們安心，我想部長及大家一起加油。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員。","接下來請張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 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please."},{"start":108.637,"end":125.724,"text":"因為我看他的這個使用的這個空間的這個規劃,他的長掃機構還有這個社區式的長掃機構住宿跟社區式,我認為那沒什麼多大問題,那我甚至還覺得說他床數夠少,那但是呢,他也有一個全零友善復服務居住單元500戶以上。"},{"start":127.085,"end":132.531,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例"},{"start":145.845,"end":153.869,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":172.119,"end":175.54,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":199.704,"end":202.206,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":215.836,"end":233.027,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":245.074,"end":250.257,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":261.624,"end":266.229,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":283.926,"end":286.748,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":302.018,"end":319.294,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正�"},{"start":321.576,"end":334.107,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全"},{"start":337.229,"end":343.595,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":361.25,"end":370.441,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:18:50 - 12:25:11","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155197","gazette":{"lineno":887,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時18分）謝謝主席，我們請劉部長。"],["主席：請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員你好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。我請教一下，在三重有一個碧華國中，它以前是舊的海砂屋，現在已經移到新的地方，蓋了一間新的學校，然後舊的學校用地改成了衛生福利用地，然後新北市政府要把它規劃成銀新未來城，不曉得部長知不知道這個計畫？"],["劉部長世芳：我清楚，多位委員包括您在內都非常的關心，但是我們跟新北市在溝通的過程當中，它似乎有一些行政程序上沒有補足，我是不是請署長來報告一下？"],["李委員坤城：好，署長。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，這過程當中我們從110年開始審，因為這些附設的高齡出租單元，還有全齡附服務的居住單元，這個事涉到衛福部的認定，所以在這過程當中，我們從一開始撮合他們雙方去協商，後來他們也主動去找衛福部，但衛福部始終都沒有同意，一直到今年，衛福部才逐步來認定這個方向是可行的。所以我們在9月份開過第4次的專案小組以後，就請他最後再把跟衛福部所談妥的內容重新做一個修正，修正以後，我們會再會同小組做一次確認，沒有問題的話就可以提大會。"],["李委員坤城：之前衛福部有意見是認為它的公益性比較低，商業性比較高，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：因為我看它使用空間的規劃，它的長照機構還有社區式的長照機構，住宿跟社區式的部分，我認為那沒什麼多大的問題，我甚至還覺得床數夠少。但是它有一個全齡友善附服務居住單元500戶以上，對於500戶以上，我那時當市議員就跟侯市長講，我說這個會變成反客為主，本來是長照，後來變成以500戶的居住單元，如果弄不好就變成一個比較高級的養生村，500戶等於是在造鎮。"],["吳署長欣修：是，所以這也是我們一開始擔心的，因為衛福部並沒有定義這一塊，所以我們一開始對這個部分是有疑慮。"],["李委員坤城：現在新北市政府有修訂了嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：現在跟衛福部談妥以後有再修正。"],["李委員坤城：我也是希望，如果真的要做全齡友善的居住，因為這是用租的，租金部分應該要比照我們社會住宅，社會住宅至少有打八折啊！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，所以我希望你們要跟新北市政府多做溝通，因為那一塊地現在閒置也是很可惜，現在是作平面停車場，侯市長講了很久，說要把這個地方作為銀新未來城，之前都把責任推給中央，說什麼衛福部、內政部好像有擋它們。"],["吳署長欣修：一開始因為它的一些規則沒有講得清楚，尤其全齡友善附服務居住單元這一塊很容易讓外界誤解，就像委員所擔憂的這一塊，如果沒有跟目前衛福部的法規明確勾稽的話，那就如同委員講的，我們能引用的就只有社會住宅這個選項，否則很難去同意這樣的案子。"],["李委員坤城：如果現在新北市送上來的計畫跟衛福部的要求比較一致的話，是不是有機會送到大會？"],["吳署長欣修：對，就像剛剛所講的，最後這500戶的部分，我們也確認它的使用用途跟未來的收費方式以後，確認沒有問題，我們會送大會審查。"],["李委員坤城：接下來呢？有沒有一個期程？"],["吳署長欣修：這個資料完備之後，小組最後要確認，因為還有一次小組的會議，都沒有問題了，才會送大會。"],["李委員坤城：大會通過呢？"],["吳署長欣修：就可以發布實施。"],["李委員坤城：它們就可以招商？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員坤城：新北市社會住宅蓋很多，尤其在我自己的三重也蓋滿多的，不過現在有個建議，社會住宅都希望共生共融，可是有很多地方要求了一些公益設施，好像內政部有一些意見，例如有活動中心，或者托幼、托老的公益設施，好像內政部有一些意見？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們是支持的，但是有一些是屬於地方自己參建，它認為它需要的，但是相對應的可能衛福部、教育部的整個規劃裡面並沒有這個選項，我們覺得地方政府可以一起過來參建，但是有些地方政府是希望由我們直接提供，它們不想參建，但是後面的空間還要送給它們，我們比較困擾在於你沒有一個經營委管單位的話，我們是不可能去蓋這樣的一個設施，所以這個是從興建需求到委管需求都必須要確認，這樣才能執行。"],["李委員坤城：有些是市政府也願意興建或委管，但好像到內政部這邊會有不同的意見，有個案我再跟你們講。"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們是沒有，反而是我們希望你要的話就要落實後面的經管。"],["李委員坤城：沒關係，如果有個案再跟你們討論。最後，在我們三重永發里永德段社會住宅1.5公頃，預計規劃1,068戶的社會住宅，這是屬於國防部的地，有一些私人土地還沒處理，這個能不能加速進行？"],["吳署長欣修：好，我會再找住都中心一起來確認它們執行的方式。"],["李委員坤城：這已經拖很久了，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。","接下來請高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:08:37","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:06:54+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155195","委員名稱":"黃國昌","duration":517,"start_time":"2024-10-07T11:58:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b49331ab6a993e965edccc55309ce9652759d736de4ad1ada90a6511449ee88a32a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.96221875,"end":9.447218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.83534375,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.05346875,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.11659375,"end":20.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.88846875,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.22159375,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.774093750000002,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.12346875,"end":31.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.53221875,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.805968750000005,"end":38.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.26534375,"end":41.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.11721875,"end":43.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.39534375,"end":45.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.55971875,"end":47.314718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.057218750000004,"end":49.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.28471875,"end":51.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.49534375,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.42721875,"end":58.485968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.414093750000006,"end":69.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.58971875,"end":71.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.42909375,"end":77.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.74034375000001,"end":82.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.34721875000001,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.14846875,"end":87.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.37596875,"end":91.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.58221875000001,"end":93.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.82221875,"end":95.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.84721875000001,"end":97.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.53034375,"end":99.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.95221875,"end":102.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.60159375,"end":103.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.12034375,"end":107.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.25909375,"end":110.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.08534375,"end":115.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.02159375000001,"end":117.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.15159375,"end":123.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.28596875000001,"end":124.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.95221875000001,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.69034375000001,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.61409375,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.57159375,"end":132.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.15784375,"end":134.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.81159375000001,"end":135.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.46534375000002,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.86159375,"end":142.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.31659375,"end":145.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.99971875,"end":146.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.97846875000002,"end":148.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.22284375,"end":150.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.91034375,"end":153.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.47096875,"end":156.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.93471875,"end":157.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.36909375000002,"end":159.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.17471875,"end":160.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.74409375000002,"end":162.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.85784375,"end":165.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.45659375000002,"end":170.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.48534375,"end":171.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.95346875,"end":175.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.63159375,"end":180.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.87596875,"end":183.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.69409375,"end":186.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.42784375000002,"end":191.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.18659375000001,"end":194.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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»:我剛有跟委員報告過2008年到現在為止確實我們必須要修正但是修正的部分並沒有像原來的提案一樣更何況2008年的提案本來就是借期不續審所以我們把借期不續審當然是借期不續審嘛我現在問的只有根本的署章有沒有改變嗎對所以三個嘛第一個把它改成報備制現在民進黨態度的"},{"start":227.907,"end":242.78,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":256.471,"end":273.396,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例"},{"start":280.768,"end":285.912,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。netesa 你說時空環境背景不同嘛那沒有關係我就請教你嘛這個主張有沒有改變"},{"start":287.106,"end":314.914,"text":"也是必須要做部分條文的修正。如何修正?第一個我們跟警政同仁在討論的過程當中他們也認為說不合法尤其是有暴力傾向的部分的話如果你沒有警政機關事實來介入的話恐怕反而會造成不是集會遊行的主要目的以外的暴力事件。警政機關介入的法律授權基礎是極有法嗎?"},{"start":316.164,"end":336,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":343.271,"end":345.633,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":373.581,"end":396.631,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":401.817,"end":403.621,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正"},{"start":412.014,"end":436.67,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 我現在沒有辦法回應,嘿。 好,沒有關係,會後回應好不好,會後具體的回應齁,針對有關於內政部在研議集會遊行法相關的審查作業,幾月幾號開了什麼會,做了什麼事,部長現在沒有辦法回應,我尊重嘛,因為現在部長手上沒資料,但會後提供可以嗎?"},{"start":437.21,"end":438.191,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案案件 審查委員審查委員"},{"start":453.682,"end":471.988,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第"},{"start":479.418,"end":505.572,"text":"需要多久?跟大家講一聲沒有這麼難吧?我還是不清楚我需要回去再看一下因為我知道修正了方向但是修正了法條跟哪些部會要做不同的審查沒有關係啦我只是要求他書面回覆我就好了嘛他現在不知道我們給他時間考慮這個我都可以接受書面回覆的時間要多久我只需要這個時間而已"},{"start":507.25,"end":508.152,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:58:17 - 12:06:54","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155195","gazette":{"lineno":773,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時58分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。修改集會遊行法這個惡法，是民進黨政府對臺灣公民社會做出的莊嚴承諾，2008年的時候，前總統蔡英文在自由廣場跟整個社會道歉，說民進黨過去8年執政時期沒有致力推動集遊法，這是2008年的道歉，講的是2000年到2008年，現在是2024年，請問集遊惡法要廢止或是改為集會遊行保障法的這個承諾，民進黨政府有要實現嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，有關集遊法裡面對於人民的集會結社權侵犯的部分，我們內政部有在審慎地研議當中。"],["黃委員國昌：現在研議的階段到哪裡？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，第一個，所謂的禁制區……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，先不談內容。以時間上面來講，目前的進度到哪裡？"],["劉部長世芳：很抱歉，還是在內政部研議，因為我們要去……"],["黃委員國昌：所以內政部打算還要研議多久？"],["劉部長世芳：我們可能要比較長一段時間，還有其他的部會……"],["黃委員國昌：所以比較長一段時間是幾年？到2028年嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我不敢這樣確認。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，所以就持續跳票下去嘛，我有說錯嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想這樣說並不是太公平，就是說……"],["黃委員國昌：這樣講還不是太公平喔？"],["劉部長世芳：因為很多人有不同的意見，所以我們整合上確實遇到困難。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼樣不同的意見？第一個，禁制區要不要廢止？"],["劉部長世芳：禁制區不一定要完全廢止，譬如說，在國防……"],["黃委員國昌：好，第二個，是不是要改成報備制？"],["劉部長世芳：報備制的部分，不一定縣市政府有相同的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來，我們來看一下，當初民進黨黨團的幹事長叫做賴清德，現在是總統。我們來看一下，2008年的時候，民進黨立院黨團提出集會遊行法修正草案，黨團幹事長賴清德說，國民黨如果不杯葛，14天內提案變更議程，法案逕付二讀。當初賴清德喊得很大聲，他要做什麼？第一個，他要改成報備制；第二個，取消什麼？取消管制區；第三個，刪除主管機關命令集會遊行解散的權力。當初賴清德的三大主張啊！現在的賴清德政府有沒有要做？我法案都調出來了，這個是賴清德講的話，在立法院公報裡面都有，還是2008年的賴清德跟2024年的賴清德不一樣了，當初的主張現在沒有打算要做了？來，請教部長。"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛有跟委員報告過，2008年到現在為止，確實我們必須要修正，但是修正的部分並沒有像原來的提案一樣，更何況2008年的提案本來就是屆期不續審，所以我們把屆期不續審也做了一下重新的評估。"],["黃委員國昌：當然是屆期不續審嘛，我現在問的只有根本的主張有沒有改變嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：現在評估的方向可能跟當時2008年不太一樣。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以有三個嘛，第一個，把它改成報備制，現在民進黨政府的態度有沒有改變？"],["劉部長世芳：部分同意，部分不同意。"],["黃委員國昌：哪部分同意？哪部分不同意？"],["劉部長世芳：不同意的部分在於我們剛剛所說的，像國防重鎮，或者是有一些尤其像現在兩岸的滲透非常嚴重的狀況之下，我們不希望真正賦予人民權利的集會遊行變成有一些滲透的力量，造成國家安全上面的疑慮。也就是說，我們在考量國家安全的原則上，要做到完全報備制度在目前為止是做不到的。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以有哪些你要用許可制？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛有跟委員報告，現在在我們內政部研議當中，也必須要請地方政府提供意見。"],["黃委員國昌：OK。刪除主管機關命令集會遊行解散的權力，態度有沒有改變？這都是賴清德當年的主張，現在你說時空環境背景不同嘛，沒有關係，我就請教你，這個主張有沒有改變？"],["劉部長世芳：也是必須要做部分條文的修正。"],["黃委員國昌：如何修正？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個，我們跟警政同仁在討論的過程當中，他們也認為不合法，尤其是有暴力傾向的部分，如果沒有警政機關適時介入的話，恐怕反而會造成不是集會遊行，主要目的以外的暴力事件。"],["黃委員國昌：警政機關介入的法律授權基礎是集遊法嗎？是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：部分是，部分不是。"],["黃委員國昌：民進黨當初怎麼主張的？自己現在全部都忘了？來，我來給你看看！"],["劉部長世芳：我們是希望有更完整的配套措施。"],["黃委員國昌：當初你前一任的部長林右昌是怎麼講的？林右昌說集會遊行法違憲要廢除，所以他當內政部部長的時候，我就請教他了，問他到底什麼時候要改？林右昌的理由跟你不一樣，他不是說時空環境不一樣，我上次問他的時候，今天你講的理由，林右昌通通都沒有講。他說前幾年因為有疫情，所以我們在研議的時候緩了一點，然後呢？他說6月要送內政部審查，所以現在是在內政部審查的期限範圍內嗎？是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：現在仍然在內政部沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候送給內政部的？"],["劉部長世芳：什麼？對不起，你說什麼時候送給內政部……"],["黃委員國昌：來、來、來，部長看一下。"],["劉部長世芳：內政部是我們部內在審查。"],["黃委員國昌：林部長右昌說：「我們預計今年6月會送本部的法規審查會和部會來做審查。」所以現在我要問的是，什麼時候進入內政部的法規審查會跟部會審查？這完全是林右昌的話，這個話不是我編出來的。什麼時候？你也不知道？"],["劉部長世芳：我現在沒有辦法回應。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，請會後具體的回應。針對有關於內政部在研議集會遊行法相關的審查作業，幾月幾號開了什麼會、做了什麼事，部長現在沒有辦法回應，我尊重嘛，因為現在部長手上沒資料，但會後提供可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有問題，順便在書面跟大家解釋一下，內政部還要研議多久？因為民進黨政府研議法案很認真，通常研議超過了8年，提不出任何東西，沒有要做就沒有要做嘛，不要繼續在那邊騙，希望這次您當部長可以完全展現不一樣的風格出來。"],["劉部長世芳：報告黃委員，我剛提到了，這是部分要修正，而不是完全不修正，修正的內容有牽涉到不同部會……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我等你嘛，你部分要修正的版本什麼時候提出來、需要多久？你跟大家講一聲，沒有這麼難吧？"],["主席：請部長回答，大概什麼時候提出來？"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？跟大家講一聲沒有這麼難吧？"],["劉部長世芳：我手上沒有資料，沒有辦法做這樣的回應。"],["主席：你要估個時間看什麼時候。"],["劉部長世芳：我還是不清楚，我需要回去再看一下，因為我知道修正的方向，但是修正的法條跟哪些部會要做不同的……"],["主席：你多久可以……"],["黃委員國昌：主席啊，沒有關係啦，我只要求他書面回復我就好了嘛！他現在不知道，我們給他時間考慮，這個我都可以接受，但是書面回復的時間要多久？我只需要這個時間而已。"],["主席：好，請部長回答，書面時間要多久？"],["劉部長世芳：月底之前，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：好，月底之前，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接下來請劉建國委員，劉建國委員，劉建國委員沒有到場。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員。","報告委員會，我們中午不休息，繼續開會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:08:40","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:40:14+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155192","委員名稱":"徐富癸","duration":520,"start_time":"2024-10-07T12:31:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4933f57f9f3bc0763ecbb8e3b5ddc0e7677d736de4ad1ada90adff46f77a105961a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.755968750000001,"end":9.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8.82284375,"end":9.852218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.20659375,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.94034375,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.05659375,"end":27.452843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.65534375,"end":64.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":67.68284375,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":68.93159375,"end":72.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":72.66096875000001,"end":74.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":74.73659375000001,"end":75.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":76.00221875000001,"end":77.31846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":77.84159375,"end":81.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":81.60471875,"end":84.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":84.67596875000001,"end":86.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":86.97096875000001,"end":87.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":88.11846875,"end":90.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.12221875,"end":102.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.93471875,"end":112.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.75596875000001,"end":151.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.97346875000002,"end":174.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.36596875,"end":185.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":185.58846875,"end":190.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":190.49909375000001,"end":192.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":193.04721875,"end":197.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":198.04221875000002,"end":208.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.48784375000002,"end":230.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":230.72909375,"end":231.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.45471875,"end":234.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.06596875000002,"end":235.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":236.21346875,"end":237.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.49034375000002,"end":247.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.14846875,"end":270.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.72284375000004,"end":279.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.41346875,"end":281.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.09659375,"end":288.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.40346875,"end":319.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.43721875,"end":290.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.36471875,"end":294.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.68534375,"end":294.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.99721875,"end":297.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.71721875000003,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.79534375000003,"end":325.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.97159375,"end":337.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.20596875,"end":339.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.72471875,"end":354.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.27096875,"end":379.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.53284375000004,"end":394.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.43346875000003,"end":405.09846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.06471875000005,"end":413.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.91659375,"end":408.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":410.95409375,"end":411.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":414.34596875000005,"end":415.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":419.37471875,"end":419.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.76284375,"end":419.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.83034375000005,"end":450.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.44159375000004,"end":468.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":456.68534375,"end":456.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.82034375,"end":456.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":456.83721875000003,"end":456.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.87096875000003,"end":456.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":465.76409375000003,"end":466.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.85221875,"end":470.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.91971875,"end":471.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.24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這個就是重點因為在112年5月的時候真的每個月平均的國際的電話是5080萬但是到今年8月剩下1200多萬證明這個有75%的電話都是詐騙電話"},{"start":228.105,"end":250.686,"text":"75%的電話都是詐騙電話另外我也跟委員再補充加86的電話本來也有1600多萬通每個月到現在每個月只有40幾萬通那個也是其實那個大部分都是詐騙電話因為我們接過民眾的檢舉齁大部分都是查的結果都是來自國外的電話沒有錯"},{"start":252.386,"end":265.171,"text":"那不知情的民眾常常就誤導了就上當了那你們通常會有沒有做一些宣傳的紙本作業有一些偏遠地區他不見得看電視"},{"start":267.304,"end":294.816,"text":"我們不只就是說我們會去到那個各個那個就是社區那個社區中心去選導這個齁那而且我們的語音警司喔打那個國際電話來還有一個語音警司一通是國際電話要設置不方便對有這樣的訊息好那我知道了王主委你是請回是不是請主席請行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心"},{"start":296.121,"end":298.342,"text":"黃執行秘書好不好,謝謝好,黃執行秘委員好黃執行秘現在有打詐刑事法是這裡面有詐欺犯罪危害防制條例刑事訴訟法通訊保障及監察法洗錢防制法是那"},{"start":324.819,"end":332.929,"text":"這裡面剛才我問了數位發展部的部長是聯合指揮,但是總是要有個執行單位,是不是你們在執行?"},{"start":334.663,"end":358.472,"text":"跟委員報告現在在8月27日行政院就將我們原來的打詐辦公室轉型成為了打詐指揮中心所以現在跨部會的協調還有在未來政策的擬定以及在執法的推動方面都是由打詐指揮中心統一來統整因為有個頭對不對"},{"start":360.012,"end":385.054,"text":"各方面的資料、各部會的資料要收集來以後是送到你們中心是不是?政策面的推動跟由打詐指揮中心來辦理那技術面的話還是由各部會依照業務分工任務執掌來做出那這樣多頭馬車勒?沒有,不會,這個只會做好相關的協調因為事前統一比較重要那各部會收集的資料都會到你們打詐中心來是不是?是的,會的"},{"start":387.674,"end":415.367,"text":"那我了解了,是不是請內政部警政署李副署長好,李副署長好,副署長早我這邊要表揚一下我們連江縣的警察局局長是前幾個禮拜,有一個選民黨要給我"},{"start":417.602,"end":441.158,"text":"他說直接要跟局長見面,局長在百忙之中接見了他接見他以後,就開始布置布置由車手是在台灣,已經被詐騙了差不多幾百萬了最後他大概要一兩百萬,那麼局長就跟檢舉員講,你請他到馬祖來拿"},{"start":443.214,"end":469.179,"text":"後來警察局局長很認真布線在機場就把他逮捕,把車手逮捕而且也承認了像類似的詐騙手法很多但是我們執政的同仁尤其要注意在整個辦案的技巧、技術的執行面這些都非常的重要我特別表揚我們連江縣的警察局局長謝謝委員那麼"},{"start":472.864,"end":492.852,"text":"我們那邊也有很多被詐騙的案子,詐騙一億、兩億、三億都有他詐騙的方式就是去新加坡,比如說我是拿督、賭錢中心去賭、包銀的甚至他還找我一塊去,穩贏不賠"},{"start":495.453,"end":499.34,"text":"我怎麼聽得下去不可能的事情,但是不管怎麼樣還是很多民眾受騙上當"},{"start":503.738,"end":531.749,"text":"所以我剛才才跟我們的NCC主委講你弄一些紙本的作業廣發到一些比較偏僻的鄉里給他們偏遠的縣市還是給民眾看他不會當垃圾丟掉一傳十,十傳百對不對我常常每天都有禮物我每天都有禮物請你要記得要去領你的禮物那個電話我連回都不敢回"},{"start":532.549,"end":553.774,"text":"我怕回了以後,電話會被他騙他騙國際電話,我不曉得怎麼騙,我是不知道,我不懂所以像這方面類似的詐騙手法都很多那麼警政署這邊當然你們警察都在你們手上執行國家的公權力這一點請你們多加油好不好好那謝謝我們副署長,謝謝主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:22:02 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謝謝昭偉那麻煩幫我邀請我們的訴發部黃部長黃部長那我們行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心黃指揮那還有我們警政署的李副署長警政署李副署長"},{"start":24.608,"end":52.637,"text":"三位長官我們這個防詐的部分有分很多階段那宣導的部分防詐宣導的部分我想也是我們各個單位非常著力在用心在做的對不對那其實最近我們Netflix上架了一部電影那其實評價非常的好大家都把它當作是一個防詐神片不曉得三位知不知道是哪部電影有沒有看過"},{"start":55.546,"end":75.066,"text":"報告委員我．連這件事情都不知道我沒有時間看那這個可能跟我們業務有一點關係啦因為這個畢竟它跟防詐它當然是一部電影但是有些人說它是一個防詐宣導片因為它是對岸拍的那可能有些認為說欸這個可能有一個大外宣的一個成分在但"},{"start":76.147,"end":102.165,"text":"無論如何這部影片在我們年輕世代有在用網路串流媒體看影音的人許多人都看過這部電影那普遍也都認為這部電影對於防詐的一個宣導不論是被騙去國外當詐騙集團或者是說是當受害者的角度那都有很多深刻的一些描述那當然我認為唯一的"},{"start":103.311,"end":128.918,"text":"可能唯一的阻礙就是因為他是對岸派的所以說我覺得三位可以去看一下然後想一下因為其實大家評價都非常好我們可以試著多多宣傳一下那在這部電影中也有幾個面向我也想做一些討論那許多我們的詐騙雖然說都是可能防止財務被詐騙但是也有許多的民眾被詐騙之後"},{"start":130.686,"end":148.555,"text":"自殺是有很多這樣的情形所以我想請問一下我們的警政署警政署請問我們有沒有針對被詐騙人之後自殺而死亡的人數統計目前沒有這個資料有沒有辦法做出來這應該要有家屬來報案目前我們自殺應該都自殺的資料不會到警政署來嗎"},{"start":158.274,"end":159.795,"text":"那自殺資料死因什麼的主管機關會在哪邊會有這樣的資料?"},{"start":169.667,"end":173.748,"text":"我希望這些資料我們在無論是我們任何的一個防詐的一個單位"},{"start":191.616,"end":212.626,"text":"提供這個資訊出來讓我們的同仁知道我們在守護的不只是民眾的財產我們在守護的也會是民眾的生命有許多的生命就是因為被詐騙而選擇自己親身離開了好不好這部分可不可以就麻煩我們的警政署來跟我們的衛福部或者是看是哪個單位有這個資料然後跨機關通報就像我們的交通嘛"},{"start":213.106,"end":235.244,"text":"交通每個月都會有這個A1人數的統計相信的詐騙一樣這個數字出來會讓大家更有警覺心那另外這個過去有一段時間我們在機場都有做宣導那就是避免我們的國民想說去賺高薪的機會去國外然後反而被囚禁在國外當詐騙集團的一個進入"},{"start":237.446,"end":243.431,"text":"那這部分我想確認一下我們警政署的統計到目前為止我們有多少的國人目前還有這樣的狀況嗎?這樣的或者是說這樣的狀況有沒有趨緩?"},{"start":251.854,"end":275.933,"text":"一般來講我們被騙到國外去詐騙然後是其他的犯罪行為那基本上我們都是民眾報案了以後我們才有這個資料那如果說以我們現在掌握到的這個資料有受理這方面報案的有868件已經返國的有612人其他的還沒有回來"},{"start":276.954,"end":294.138,"text":"好所以目前大概依照我們現有統計資訊大概還有多大概200名左右的國人可能在國外是被強制限制人身有的人是被強制了有些可能是主動的可能都有在國外進行詐騙因為受理了以後報給這個議員這個"},{"start":299.119,"end":320.017,"text":"立即來偵辦那偵辦現在就是說有不管是他是被詐騙或是說去外面犯罪我們就是這個民眾報案以後我們就報給地檢署去指揮是我們現在有跟任何一個國家有簽訂這個境外警方在境外執法打擊詐騙的相關簽約嗎"},{"start":323.206,"end":337.957,"text":"我們是陸續有私底下跟各國有這樣的一個協定但是因為我們自己有16個駐外的駐點如果這方面的訊息除了是透過外交部我們自己的駐點會了解"},{"start":339.598,"end":353.256,"text":"那我們的同仁有辦法到境外去執法嗎?目前沒有還沒有辦法我們再繼續努力那包括200多名的國人這個也麻煩一下黃部長就留步那兩位先可以回座一下"},{"start":354.281,"end":374.431,"text":"部長我們最近前幾天上架了一個APP 對不對APP的名稱我忘記我看一下你有下載嗎?有網路通報、網站、通報、查詢網嘛你有下載?你有沒有用過?我自己有試用,我試用的是Alpha版本那最近9月30要上架是Beta有沒有發現什麼問題?"},{"start":376.85,"end":404.746,"text":"我知道你適用有沒有發現什麼問題我們適用啊就說當然我已經開始接到一些就講所謂Beta的意思就是說讓民間這個測試版我跟你講這個你們花多少錢啊預算幾千萬是那個我們這個計畫是看起來蠻簡單的一個APP啦也不用太難啦應該還好吧應該沒有多少錢吧因為他還有後面的那種接受通報這種這個那個客服沒關係這個預算大概多少APP的開發預算"},{"start":407.085,"end":430.485,"text":"一千三百萬一千三百萬喔好啦如果連後勤什麼的那個沒關係啦這個跟其他部位比還是沒有很多啦但是這個介面還蠻簡單的啦那我就同仁我辦公室同仁就下載測試一下因為它也才四個主要頁面啦那在四個主要頁面裡面統計的這一個部分啦如果你有下載可以看一下我們統計部分有一個打詐樣派啦這個是下拉式的表單連點都點不出來"},{"start":433.007,"end":433.888,"text":"統計頁面打這樣他也點不出來嗎?"},{"start":460.71,"end":462.211,"text":"那這個想確認一下因為這個通報應該是24小時不分假日所以我們確認一下這個都是24小時運作嗎?"},{"start":480.864,"end":498.938,"text":"對這是24小時接受通報那因為我們有些東西會通報金管會或其他單位那這些單位有辦法在假日做查證嗎我們有要求但是就是說現在還是在運作在協調中所以目前比如說金管會金管會今天也有來嘛是不是金管會來那個邱副主委"},{"start":507.543,"end":515.591,"text":"是 如果說我們假日速發部有通報這個疑似詐騙的訊息給我們我們需要多少時間平日啦 平日需要多久 那假日有沒有辦法處理"},{"start":516.645,"end":541.625,"text":"根文報告目前我們工作的方式是1到5都有那假日部分還在規劃?謝謝好沒關係有在規劃那就因為剛上線啦好不好不能太苛責那就是詐騙是不分假日不分白天晚上當然人力的部分可能就是可能讓我們的同仁比較辛苦一點或是增聘人力但這個部分就是希望24小時全年無休那這個才有辦法迅速的打擊詐騙"},{"start":542.546,"end":545.708,"text":"網路、臉書、LINE這些平台的回應,我們都已經有通暢的管道了嗎?對,我們跟他們喝過,人都很熟,通報過後他們都會迅速的回應"},{"start":564.542,"end":584.958,"text":"配合度都還好那因為我們最近大概瀏覽了一下啦那有一些都是說可能確認為詐騙訊息那以通知比如說Facebook移除怎麼樣的那有些我點進去已經移除了有些沒有移除了但是我想最終的狀態我們可能還是要追蹤一下不是就送給臉書之後就沒事那如果說我追蹤的話如果說他移除你們也會知道那可能最終訊息要"},{"start":586.539,"end":601.772,"text":"高通顯示下而不是只有告知讓民眾以為只有告知而已好不好那以上那那抱歉再給我一點時間我可不可以邀請這個法務部我們國司長好法務部那我們這個黃部長還有我們同仁就謝謝"},{"start":608.829,"end":631.268,"text":"委員好市長好不好意思請問一下這個詐欺是公訴罪嗎對不對對非告訴乃論非告訴乃論是公訴罪嗎那其實詐欺當然有區域詐欺的跟騙人的可能讓你以為我要講的就是網路遊戲啦在最近的時候公平交易委員會已經有訂定法令要求所有機率型的商品都必須要明訂機率對不對"},{"start":633.684,"end":650.004,"text":"這件事情公平會已經立法了已經上路了所以比如說大家網路遊戲抽卡抽角色都會告訴你機率那你再去抽但是常常我們沒有辦法去驗證這樣子的一個機率到底是不是正確的那如果說有民眾來報案"},{"start":651.946,"end":668.3,"text":"因為機率這種東西講實在就算告訴你99%會中你還是有可能連抽10次都沒中嘛沒有人辦法說因為就是機率嘛還是有機會連續10次都沒中那假設有民眾跟我們報案這種機率型的網路遊戲有很可疑的異常的情況下"},{"start":669.221,"end":696.92,"text":"那我們司法單位有沒有辦法偵辦跟委員報告這個個案上如果有報案的話那檢察官就可能會拜託我們司法警察機關啟動偵查的機制來調查調查他是不是隱藏著一個詐欺行為那這個是個案來做判斷個案判斷那你們可能可以去找遊戲公司請他提供內部的可能資訊等等的對那到時候他必須要配合嗎對"},{"start":698.141,"end":721.178,"text":"那到時候啟動偵查之後這個被偵查對象可能要配合偵辦的一些步驟提供資料等等那是個案在釐清的時候可能就好所以我們可以去告訴這些玩家網路遊戲的一些機率型的一些商品如果說他有標示不實的部分他還是可能涉及詐欺那當然他是非告訴奶的當然我們民眾可以去報案"},{"start":721.718,"end":732.496,"text":"若說報案的話我們檢察機關會受理會去調查一下有沒有蓄意詐欺的情形是會好那以上就謝謝我們司長謝謝召委好謝謝廖先翔委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:09:40 - 12:21:52","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155190","gazette":{"lineno":777,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（12時9分）好，謝謝召委，麻煩幫我邀請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：黃部長。"],["廖委員先翔：行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心黃執秘。"],["主席：黃執行秘書。"],["廖委員先翔：還有警政署的李副署長。"],["主席：警政署李副署長。"],["廖委員先翔：好，3位長官，我們防詐的部分，有分很多階段，宣導的部分，防詐宣導的部分，我想也是我們各個單位非常著力用心在做的嘛！對不對？其實最近Netflix上架了一部電影，其實評價非常的好，大家都把它當作是一個防詐神片，不曉得3位知不知道是哪一部電影，有沒有看過？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我……"],["廖委員先翔：連這件事情都不知道。"],["黃部長彥男：我沒有時間看那這個。"],["廖委員先翔：這個可能跟我們業務有一點關係，因為畢竟它跟防詐，當然它是一部電影，但是有些人說它是一個防詐宣導片，因為它是對岸拍的，可能有些人認為說這個可能有一個大外宣的一個成分在，但無論如何這部影片在我們年輕世代，有在用網路串流媒體看影音的人，許多人都看過這部電影，普遍也都認為這部電影對於防詐的宣導，不論是被騙去國外當詐騙集團，或者是當受害者的角度，都有很多深刻的描述，當然我認為可能唯一的阻礙就是因為它是對岸拍的，所以我覺得3位可以去看一下，然後想一下，因為其實大家評價都非常好，我們可以試著多多宣傳一下。在這部電影中也有幾個面向，我也想做一些討論，雖然說都是可能防止財物被詐騙，但是也有許多的民眾被詐騙之後自殺，是有很多這樣的情形，所以我想請問一下警政署，請問警政署，我們有沒有針對被詐騙人之後自殺而死亡的人數統計？"],["李副署長政曉：目前沒有這個資料。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有這個資料，有沒有辦法做出來？"],["李副署長政曉：這應該要有家屬來報案，目前我們……"],["廖委員先翔：自殺的資料不會到警政署來嗎？"],["李副署長政曉：不會，應該是別的部會的主管。"],["廖委員先翔：自殺的資料、死因什麼的，主管機關會在哪邊會有這樣的資料？"],["李副署長政曉：應該是衛福部或是其他的地方政府。"],["廖委員先翔：我想一定會有一個單位有這樣子一個統計資料，自殺人數、自殺的原因是什麼，因為他可能心理因素怎樣，您說衛福部，我認為是有機會的啦！我希望可以去整理這些資料，我希望這些資料，無論是我們任何一個防詐的單位提供這個資訊出來，讓我們的同仁知道，我們在守護的不只是民眾的財產，我們在守護的也會是民眾的生命，有許多的生命就是因為被詐騙而選擇自己輕生離開了，好不好？這部分可不可以就麻煩我們的警政署來跟我們的衛福部，或者是看哪個單位有這個資料，跨機關的通報，就像我們的交通，交通每個月都會有A1人數的統計，我相信詐騙一樣，這個數字出來，會讓大家更有警覺心。","另外，過去有一段時間，我們在機場都有做宣導，就是避免我們的國民想去賺高薪的機會，去國外，然後反而被囚禁在國外當詐騙集團的禁虜，這部分我想確認一下，警政署有統計到目前為止我們有多少國人目前還有這樣的狀況嗎？或者是說這樣的狀況有沒有趨緩？"],["李副署長政曉：一般來講，我們被騙到國外去詐騙，或者是其他的犯罪行為，基本上我們都是民眾報案了以後才有這個資料，如果以我們現在掌握到的這些資料，有受理這方面報案的有868件，已經返國的有612人，其他的還沒有回來。"],["廖委員先翔：好，所以目前依照我們現有統計資訊，大概還有200名左右的國人可能在國外是被強制限制人身，有的是被強制的，有些可能是主動的，可能都有在國外進行詐騙。"],["李副署長政曉：這個我們因為受理了以後，報給地方立即來偵辦，偵辦現在就是不管他是被詐騙或是去外面犯罪，我們就是在民眾報案以後，就報給地檢署去指揮偵查。"],["廖委員先翔：是，我們現在有跟任何一個國家簽訂這個境外警方在境外執法打擊詐騙的相關簽約嗎？"],["李副署長政曉：我們是陸續有私底下跟各國有這樣的一個協定，但是因為我們自己有16個駐外的駐點，如有這方面的訊息，除了透過外交部，我們自己的駐點也會了解。"],["廖委員先翔：是，我們的同仁有辦法到境外去執法嗎？"],["李副署長政曉：目前沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：還沒有辦法，還沒有辦法！好，我們再繼續努力，包括200多名的國人，這個也麻煩一下。黃部長就留步，那兩位先可以回座一下。","部長，我們最近前幾天上架了一個app，對不對？app的名稱我忘記，我看一下，你有下載嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：有，網路通報詐騙。"],["廖委員先翔：網詐通報查詢網嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["廖委員先翔：你有下載？"],["黃部長彥男：有。"],["廖委員先翔：你有沒有用過？"],["黃部長彥男：我自己有試用，我試用是alpha版本的，最近9月30日上架是beta。"],["廖委員先翔：有沒有發現什麼問題？"],["黃部長彥男：不是，就是我們……"],["廖委員先翔：我知道，你試用有沒有發現什麼問題？"],["黃部長彥男：我們試用，所謂beta的意思給民間的測試版。"],["廖委員先翔：這個你們花多少錢啊？預算。"],["黃部長彥男：幾千萬，我們這個計畫是……"],["廖委員先翔：看起來蠻簡單的一個app啦！也不用太難啦！應該還好吧！應該沒有多少錢吧！"],["林副署長俊秀：因為它還有後面接受通報的那個客服。"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，這個預算大概多少？app的開發預算。"],["林副署長俊秀：1,300萬元。"],["廖委員先翔：1,300萬元喔！好，如果連後勤什麼的，沒關係啦！這個跟其他部會比還是沒有很多啦！但是這個介面還蠻簡單的啦！我辦公室同仁就下載測試一下，因為它也才4個主要頁面啦！在4個主要頁面裡面統計的這一個部分，如果你有下載可以看一下，統計部分有一個打詐樣態，這個是下拉式的表單，連點都點不出來，好不好？我希望我們這個app既然已經上線了，就確認一下這個app的使用性，剛上線可能有點問題，好不好？我們再檢討一下喔！你們也點不出來嘛！對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：這個要說明一下。"],["林副署長俊秀：不好意思，那個剛上線，所以應該highlight一下，第一頁首頁就是那個，重複點下去……"],["廖委員先翔：對啊！統計頁面打詐樣態點不出來嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：大概跟委員報告一下，因為現在目前那個就只有叫做打詐的那個，但是我們因為可能會有一個下拉式的。"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係啦，就小問題啦！小問題啦！就檢討一下。"],["林組長青嶔：我們會改進，我們會改進！"],["廖委員先翔：會改進就好了啦！"],["林組長青嶔：是。"],["廖委員先翔：好不好？想確認一下，因為這個通報應該是24小時啦！不分假日，所以我們確認一下這個都是24小時運作嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，就是24小時。"],["廖委員先翔：24小時接受通報，因為我們有些東西會通報金管會或其他單位，這些單位有辦法在假日做查證嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們有要求，但是現在還是在運作、在協調中，所以目前……"],["廖委員先翔：比如說金管會，金管會今天也有來嘛！是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：金管會來那個……"],["廖委員先翔：邱副主委，如果說假日數發部有通報疑似詐騙的訊息給我們，我們需要多少時間？平日啦！平日需要多久？假日有沒有辦法處理？"],["邱副主任委員淑貞：跟委員報告，目前我們工作的方式是一到五都有，假日部分還在規劃，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，有在規劃，因為剛上線啦！好不好！不能太苛責，詐騙是不分假日，不分白天晚上，當然人力的部分，可能讓我們同仁比較辛苦一點，或是增聘人力，但這個部分就是希望24小時全年無休，才有辦法迅速的打擊詐騙啦！金管會就先回去，沒關係。"],["邱副主任委員淑貞：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：再來，黃部長的部分，像網路、臉書、LINE等這些平台的回應，我們都已經有通暢的管道了嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們跟他們喝過咖啡，人都很熟。"],["廖委員先翔：通報過後，他們都會迅速的回應嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對，有些目前其實配合度都還好。"],["廖委員先翔：因為我們最近大概瀏覽了一下啦！有一些都是說可能確認為詐騙訊息，已通知比如Facebook移除怎樣的，有些有點進去已經移除，有些沒有移除，但是我想最終的狀態，我們可能還是要追蹤一下，不是就送給臉書之後，就沒事。"],["黃部長彥男：我們會追蹤。"],["廖委員先翔：如果說有追蹤的話，如果說它移除，你們也會知道，可能最終訊息要顯示一下，而不是只有告知，讓民眾以為只有告知而已，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["廖委員先翔：以上，不好意思，再給我一點時間，我可不可以邀請法務部郭司長？"],["主席：法務部。"],["廖委員先翔：當然黃部長還有我們同仁就謝謝。"],["郭司長永發：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：司長好，不好意思，請問一下，這個詐欺是公訴罪嘛！對不對？"],["郭司長永發：對，非告訴乃論。"],["廖委員先翔：非告訴乃論是公訴罪嘛！其實詐欺當然有蓄意詐欺的跟騙人的，我要講的就是網路遊戲啦，最近公平交易委員會已經有訂定法令的要求，所有機率型的商品都必須要明訂機率，對不對？這件事情公平會已經立法也上路了，所以以後網路遊戲、抽卡、抽角色都會告訴你機率，那你再去抽，但是常常我們沒有辦法去驗證這樣子的機率到底是不是正確的，如果有民眾來報案，因為機率這種東西講實在就算告訴你百分之九十九會中，你還是有可能連抽10次都沒中嘛，沒有人有辦法，因為就是機率嘛，還是有機會連續10次都沒中。假設有民眾跟我們報案這種機率型的網路遊戲有可疑異常的情況下，我們司法單位有沒有辦法偵辦？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，這個個案如果有報案的話，檢察官就可能會拜託我們司法警察機關啟動偵查機制來調查是不是隱藏著一個詐欺行為，這個是個案來做判斷。"],["廖委員先翔：個案判斷，那你們可能可以去找遊戲公司，請它提供內部的資訊等等的，它必須要配合嗎？"],["郭司長永發：對，到時候啟動偵查之後，這個被偵查的對象可能要配合偵辦的一些步驟提供資料等等，那是個案在釐清的時候可能就要……"],["廖委員先翔：好，所以我們可以去告訴這些玩家，網路遊戲的機率型商品如果有標示不實的部分還是可能涉及詐欺。"],["郭司長永發：對。"],["廖委員先翔：當然它是非告訴乃論，但我們民眾可以去報案，如果報案的話，我們檢察機關會受理，會去調查一下有沒有蓄意詐欺的情形。"],["郭司長永發：是，會。"],["廖委員先翔：好，以上。謝謝司長、謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖先翔委員，謝謝法務部。","接下來有請陳雪生委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","游顥","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","陳雪生","徐富癸","洪孟楷","李坤城","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","郭國文","林月琴","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委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12:48:03","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":"155189","gazette":{"lineno":768,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（12時39分）好，謝謝，本席邀請國防部顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長辛苦了。今天大家都在關心雷神的事件，我想有幾個事情也希望再請部長能夠進一步釐清。其實這個事情主要是美國2021年就在調查雷神公司，那時候調查只是要查雷神公司是否有涉及行賄卡達。從2021年查到今年2024年的大概6月、7月，就開始美國有很多媒體報導，更進一步查到了雷神有抬價的事情。","我現在舉給你看，這是我從華爾街日報抓到的，這是今年大概7月的新聞，那時候查的就是雷神公司有沒有行賄卡達，然後美國國防部審計單位再進一步去查雷神公司，才查到它有抬價的事情，這就是案外案。然後今年10月1號突然間有一個奇怪的媒體就報導雷神的抬價事件，好像就是說臺灣是個「盤仔」，美國就刻意地在這個抬價事件上，臺灣吃大虧。我想請教部長，第一個，雷神的抬價事件受害國家有哪些？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有掌握了一些國家，但是我想我們可能不適宜將這些國家一一列舉。"],["林委員俊憲：美國有受害嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：美國有。"],["林委員俊憲：好，那雷神公司是美國的公司嘛？是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：不是，它是私人的。"],["林委員俊憲：我知道它是……基本上它設籍在美國嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：對，屬於美國境內的公司。"],["林委員俊憲：是美國境內、美國本土的公司嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員俊憲：它主要也是軍火供應給美國國防部嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員俊憲：好，那我請教，如果美國也受害的話，我說的是抬價哦！那表示美國的審計單位也沒有辦法在軍火購買當下知道這個價格有沒有抬價、有沒有合理哦！"],["顧部長立雄：對，所以這一點我們也是希望……因為美國現在給我們的資訊我們還沒有辦法確知，就是說……"],["林委員俊憲：如果美國也受害，我知道美國有受害，卡達也受害，臺灣也受害，至少3個國家，其實是多國受害。"],["顧部長立雄：是，多國。"],["林委員俊憲：也就是說，這麼多國家都沒有辦法在軍火購買的時候就知道這個價格合不合理了。坦白講，剛剛很多人關心我們國防部有沒有能力事先就知道這個價格到底合不合理、能不能買。其實每一筆軍火採購都不一樣，我認為如果連美國都受害，那我當然強烈懷疑，我也知道大概我們國防部也沒有辦法有能力確保這個價格是否合理，是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：我這邊的立場會是我們等待美國的完整報告出來之後，我們理解……"],["林委員俊憲：你不方便答，那至少我確定，第一個，多國受害，連美國也受害。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員俊憲：第二個，發生抬價的狀況，美國現在調查的是在大概2011年到2017年嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：美國給我們的初步訊息有一些，但是我們剛剛在機密報告裡面已經報告了，所以我想就不在這邊再多做說明。"],["林委員俊憲：旁邊幕僚提醒你要回答「不確定」，實際上大概差不多這個時間。"],["顧部長立雄：沒有。"],["林委員俊憲：所以以那個時間序來講，在臺灣幾乎就是藍綠都受害。"],["顧部長立雄：現在確實時間還沒有辦法完全地……"],["林委員俊憲：那就是藍綠受害嘛！因為它也牽扯到馬政府執政的時候。也就是說，國防部發新聞稿提的那個內容農場，它所寫的是要引導成疑美論啦！引導成臺灣是個「盤仔」啦！基本上，我回到剛剛第一個問題，很多國家都受害，根本很難有能力知道。因為軍火是一種很特殊的採購，你很難知道這個價格狀況如何，每一筆都確定合理嗎？連美國都受害，這是我剛剛跟你確定的。","第二個，如果按照這個內容農場所寫的，其實跨時間點來講的話，臺灣藍綠都受害了，不要把這個事情高度政治化，我認為受害的是我們國家。因為我們國家是跟美國政府簽約，不是跟雷神簽約，所以美國政府要負責退還我們這筆錢，這個部長你也確定的？"],["顧部長立雄：對，這個是我們現在應該可以確定的事。"],["林委員俊憲：所以我跟你確定兩點，第一個是多國受害，藍綠受害。再來，我跟你確定第三點，你剛剛有提，國防部很罕見的新聞稿裡面，我看到國防部措辭非常強烈，它特別提出這是一個屬性特殊的內容農場。請問部長，這屬性特殊是什麼特殊法？你怎麼每件事都沒辦法回答我？"],["孫處長立方：報告委員，有關這個部分，我們在說明的時候，其實都是依據事實來做陳述，包含……"],["林委員俊憲：廢話，不然要說謊來陳述嗎？當然是事實啊。"],["孫處長立方：依當天的一個日子的狀況，然後包含在這個訊息出來之前，東部戰區發出的這個……"],["林委員俊憲：我問你，這個「屬性特殊」是什麼特殊法？","好，再來，部長，國防部有特別提出，但是時間點很敏感，因為剛好在中國的國慶10月1日，所以，你說那個「屬性特殊的內容農場」，那請教，所以這個內容農場是境外的，是嗎？"],["孫處長立方：並不能說它是一個完全的境外的。"],["林委員俊憲：不然是怎麼樣？臺灣也牽扯在內？"],["孫處長立方：它整個發布的訊息還是以國內訊息為主。"],["林委員俊憲：我看這個內容農場，基本上可能跟臺灣以前一位政治人物璩美鳳有相當的關係。好，那你說這個屬性特殊的農場，那我再請教部長，你覺得這個內容農場是否有中國介入？"],["孫處長立方：我現在沒有辦法給你一個肯定的答案，但是我們只是認為……"],["林委員俊憲：我問你到現在，沒有一個可以肯定的。部長，你當過國安局局長。"],["顧部長立雄：國安會。"],["林委員俊憲：你是一個非常有特殊經歷的國防部長，這個內容農場是不是中國有介入裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：我在立法院答詢，我想……"],["林委員俊憲：好，那我再請教部長，我可不可以高度懷疑這個是中國介入的一個內容農場？"],["顧部長立雄：委員的意見我表示尊重，我們沒有辦法置喙。"],["林委員俊憲：如果不是，你就會否認，那你這樣講，我就認為是啦。"],["顧部長立雄：我只是說我尊重委員的看法。"],["林委員俊憲：如果不是中國介入，你就會否定，通常是這樣，官員都這樣，只要是不對的，他一定講得很百分之百明確，你說很為難講的話，那我大概解讀就是是啦，就是中國有介入這個內容農場。因為這符合他們這幾年來高度操作的疑美論，破壞臺灣跟美國的關係，說臺灣是「盤仔」，美國刻意地要用高價抬價，來賣我們一些武器。但是我剛剛前面提兩點，第一個就是這是多國受害，第二個是如果從時間橫跨的角度來看的話，就是藍綠都受害，第三，我可以高度懷疑這是中國介入的內容農場所發出來的一個刻意抹黑的訊息。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為我們是認為他刻意地只強調似乎是臺灣單一……但事實上是美國政府也一起有購買。"],["林委員俊憲：就是我剛剛講的嘛，是多國受害。"],["顧部長立雄：所以美國政府本身也包括在裡面的話，那就不是說美國政府把我們當「盤仔」，或者是當凱子，因為如果美國政府本身也受害，那……"],["林委員俊憲：我的邏輯就是這樣。美國政府都沒有辦法事先知道這個價格是被哄抬的，那更何況臺灣，更何況其他國家。"],["顧部長立雄：所以不能講美國政府把我們當凱子。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有錯，我們就是要破除這種刻意的誤解和抹黑嘛，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長今天的回答。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員。部長請回。","接下來，我們請鍾佳濱委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:06:44","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:45:55+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155188","委員名稱":"何欣純","duration":404,"start_time":"2024-10-07T12:39:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493260cb5712b7fd399825024566f032902b5ac217a49bd2e2e8ff9a8166b34d53e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0603437500000001,"end":4.232843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.215343750000002,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.434718750000002,"end":69.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.40409375,"end":100.25159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.33596875,"end":126.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.07846875000001,"end":101.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.69159375000001,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.07034375,"end":139.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.96784375000001,"end":134.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.13659375,"end":134.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1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蘇委員我們是不是請彭部長部長好第一次來質詢剛剛有武立法委員提到我台中離山部分的這個垃圾的問題那請部長這邊是不是可以要求地方政府是不是大家中央地方一起合作來看看我們台中市的這個垃圾的問題"},{"start":26.332,"end":49.291,"text":"因為確實在這幾年來我聽說尤其臺中市議會的議員曾經也質詢過臺中市的垃圾未來是一個很大很大的一個令人擔憂的地方其實在上一任環保署署長的時候大概兩三年前在疫情時間我就有曾經就就交與這個署長有過於各縣市之間地方的這個垃圾的一個處理"},{"start":51.132,"end":64.878,"text":"真的在這幾年來是一個我們必須要中央要能夠掌握而且要提出有效的解方這部長這第一個提醒也希望我台中的部分請你多多關心第二個剛剛在經濟委員會我聽到這個國發會主委有說要來找你討論商量"},{"start":69.68,"end":94.183,"text":"商量什麼你知道嗎今天經濟委員會在討論的是有關呢中小企業的一個創新以及未來面對的這個ESG淨零碳排那未來我們政府可以如何扶植如何幫助那國發會主委呢有講了一句話他說呢他要找環境部來商量因為呢我們呢要結合部會資源要成立綠色科技等"},{"start":94.563,"end":117.857,"text":"白益大基金部長你知道這個綠色科技白益大基金是什麼報告委員這個是其實我也跟委員說總統跟院長都很關心他們關心醫療了之後其實我後來他們提醒我之後我就積極的去找國發會金管會還有保險公司所以國發會很支持我們要成立一個100億的綠色成長基金"},{"start":119.718,"end":140.367,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":140.447,"end":162.803,"text":"大大小那希望是用產業鏈的關係來看整個推動那當然你們現在相關碳費的執法規正在公告那我只是提醒部長中小企業尤其是在產業鏈的中下游的其他這種協力的微型廠商非常的焦慮第一個焦慮是什麼對政府的政策其實他不是那麼的瞭解"},{"start":163.604,"end":179.055,"text":"不是那麼的了解第二個所謂的這個碳費的前端可能要的所謂的碳盤查什麼碳計算什麼有的沒有的他們也不懂那這中間呢我們也產生了很多在基層上看到民間的所謂的顧問公司來"},{"start":180.937,"end":205.659,"text":"來跟各個中小企業說來來我來跟你說明聽我的就對了你知道嗎在上個禮拜的經濟委員會公平會主委到我們立法院來備詢的時候很多位我們地方選區的區域立委都講到一件事情就是因為呢中小企業還有微型企業對於政府的政策跟未來的這個所謂的綠色科技啦我如何可以被認證啊如何可以減碳啊如何怎樣怎樣"},{"start":207.165,"end":223.012,"text":"沒啥了解所以一大堆的這個所謂的這個顧問公司呢如竹筍般的生出來了那到處吹噓到處招攬然後到處收取顧問費中小企業因為不賣所以他想說這可能比較賺錢"},{"start":225.613,"end":247.58,"text":"聽信了顧問費付了到底能不能達到政府要的這個減碳他們的這個努力投資的這個綠色的成本到底能不能被認可被認證都沒有人知道所以上個禮拜在經濟委員會就要求公平會主委針對如果有廣告不實或者是呢有這個說的比做的還好做的"},{"start":248.48,"end":259.747,"text":"很少說了很多的是不是也應該政府要拿出公權力來而這個其實不是只有公平會主委的事我覺得跟環境部有關係這個其實我已經有接獲一些檢舉的案例那我們也在調查當中那我希望我會可以積極來處理的確委員說的是對的因為很多人在販賣這種恐慌焦慮來謀利這的確是不好的"},{"start":271.795,"end":296.432,"text":"那中小企業也不必過於擔心因為我們有一系列的輔導措施我們是針對大企業要影響到中小企業其實那個量很低很低啦但是我覺得部長這個你要說清楚因為很多真的不懂真的不曉得那大家因為資訊的不透明或是接觸不到接收的不完整所以這樣子的恐慌事實上到處在蔓延我參加了很多的工協會的會員大會"},{"start":298.894,"end":300.456,"text":"我希望在產業面能夠真的能夠知道說環境部未來對於近林碳排的"},{"start":314.814,"end":335.714,"text":"建建式的一個程序時程推動還有輔導的措施還有政府可以怎麼協助的我希望有一個人說了算啊不然我們現在在七點看到的這些顧問公司說了不算那誰說了算尤其呢包括我相信今天有其他委員有問到在近年探牌裡面的探盤查來"},{"start":337.795,"end":362.853,"text":"誰算是對的對的話又誰來認證認證跟驗證的單位又有哪些你知道我上網去看喔環境部公告的跟經濟部公告的是不一樣的加數不一樣的數字那請問一下你們怎麼分工那你們又怎麼去認定那我中小企業或是微型企業我如果有相關的問題我自己上網去查了很多都是二代"},{"start":363.493,"end":382.59,"text":"二代年輕人他們會上網查可是查的時候他告訴我什麼不好意思啦我去環境部這裡看看我去經濟部這裡看看看來看過去我還是不懂到底誰是權責單位誰說了算那我又該去找誰有沒有可能成立你跟經濟部可以有一個單一窗口"},{"start":382.93,"end":400.625,"text":"好 可以 我們現在會研議拜託你們研議好不好我覺得這個很重要很重要好 那多久的時間可以成立我們現在在深度節能針對整個大戶的正在進行當中我希望我把這個東西帶帶進去可能兩個月內給委員一個答覆好不好好 謝謝謝謝何委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:39:11 - 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那麼各案當然他被告抗辯說他不是最嚴重但是檢察官他就會去說服法官說他的情形是最嚴重好 秘書長 部長我想要說以前以前古代有這種開國的元勳可以拿到免死金牌 青天白日勳章現在啊 到我們這個社會現在非常的悲哀啊居然是大法官頒給坐監犯科的人免死金牌給了他八道免死金牌"},{"start":313.715,"end":340.321,"text":"真的是讓人民非常的心寒這8道免死金牌讓人民覺得非常的錯愕另外我也想要請問警政跟這個法務部這個憲法判決等於是讓犯罪的成本有上限就如同常常聽到犯罪的人說反正又不會被判死刑所以是不是會擔憂這樣讓我們的治安更加的敗壞也會製造檢警跟司法院的矛盾會不會"},{"start":344.291,"end":355.662,"text":"我想現在還是實行還是制度還是維持那判死現在沒有說一定就不會判死寶院司法院的報告裡面自己也有說要有共識那我想請問這樣子什麼時候會有共識"},{"start":357.108,"end":363.432,"text":"我想我最後做個結論這一次的大法官釋憲讓我們人民看到的是大法官頒給了我們做監犯科的罪犯8道免死金牌讓人非常的遺憾"},{"start":387.455,"end":405.676,"text":"大法官滿職的荒唐人民一把辛酸淚讓我們覺得非常的對於未來非常的沒有光明沒有這個社會沒有這個公平正義所刻眼所以要再次強調我們現在已經不只是反對廢除死刑我也反對廢除實質的死刑謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:36:53 - 12:43:44","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155187","gazette":{"lineno":953,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（12時36分）謝謝主席，有請秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：我們今天在這裡討論非常沉重的話題。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：這次大法官，對於憲法判決結果，媒體也說這叫新增八道生死門，也就是八個條件都要過關才有可能被判死刑，所以社會譁然，大家都說這就等同實質廢死。前面也有非常多委員都已經講到相關的問題，但我想針對其中兩個部分來跟大家討論，也請各單位表明自己的立場。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：首先就PPT上面的兩個條件做討論，原文在這個PPT上面。簡單來說，如果犯罪者在審判中或是在監獄中，只要無法像監獄外的人身心正常，那就不應該被判處死刑。想請問司法院的代理秘書長，我這樣的理解有錯嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為精神障礙，誠如簡報所寫的，心智缺陷，致他的自我辯護能力不足，或者是受刑能力有欠缺的時候，都是像委員所講的，不能科處死刑跟不能執行死刑。"],["廖委員偉翔：那我想請教，這樣子長期被關在監獄裡面收押一段時間之後，會出現身心狀況，應該是非常容易發生的事情吧？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：個案有沒有這種情形，可能還是需要做評估跟鑑定，不見得……"],["廖委員偉翔：評估跟鑑定，對，剛剛的意思……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：不見得都會發生，我想不見得。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是比例應該挺高的吧？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想我們不敢做這種推定。"],["廖委員偉翔：我給你看看，我們可以看到廢死聯盟自己提出的報告也說，死刑犯活著就等同於被虐待，痛苦且毫無尊嚴。我想在這樣的情況之下，很難身心沒有一點狀況。其實也不要說死刑犯，我想大部分人只要長期被關起來，在長期被監禁的環境下，身心狀況沒有辦法說完全沒有異常吧！是不是？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：這部分可能要專業去做評估。"],["廖委員偉翔：還是我們可以請法務部長，是不是請部長？可不可以告訴我們，這樣的情況，在監獄裡面受刑人的身心都很健康嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這是屬於執行面的問題，我想我們會做輔導、協助。執行面是不是我可以請矯正署署長來回答？"],["廖委員偉翔：好。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，目前全臺監所是以毒品犯為最多，那以所謂的精神問題，毒品犯比如吸食安非他命，可能會破壞他的比如腦神經，他會有被害妄想等等。"],["廖委員偉翔：抱歉，我想請教的就是說，在長期這樣子收押的情況之下，是不是受刑人其實很容易，不能夠說他完全沒有精神異常，應該是會出現一些精神異常，或是他只要說他精神有狀況就可以了？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，我們現在跟鄰近的，收容人已納入二代健保，會給他比如說精神方面的看診，或包括說在配業方面……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，你沒有回答我的問題，我看還是就不用再回答了，我回到剛剛講的這個段落。基本上只要在審查判斷的過程，在整個審判的過程當中，他只要說他精神有狀況，就不應該被判死刑，我想這就是大法官的解釋，這也是我們一般民眾沒有辦法理解和沒有辦法接受的，非常的離譜。另外，我也想要問憲法判決裡面還有要求，必須是最嚴重的犯罪情節才能夠判死，我也很好奇這樣的定義到底是什麼？我整理了一些例子，姦殺檳榔西施的人，這樣子嚴不嚴重？是不是犯最嚴重的情節？是不是犯罪最嚴重的嚴重情節？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，法官就個案一定要調查所有的卷證，因為我沒有接觸到這個案子的……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那也有把母子一起吊死的，這樣嚴不嚴重？也有人把人綁在車子裡活活燒死的，甚至也有把我們的人民保母殺害之後，說把他判死刑的話會讓法律變得殘忍，所以應該要廢除死刑的。這些人在我們大眾眼裡都是最嚴重的犯罪情節者，那是怎麼樣？還有什麼方法才比較出是最嚴重的犯罪情節嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，個案當然被告抗辯說他不是最嚴重，但是檢察官就會去說服法官說他的情形是最嚴重，他會……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：好，秘書長、部長，以前古代有這種開國的元勳，可以拿到免死金牌、青天白日勳章，現在到我們這個社會，現在非常的悲哀，居然是大法官頒給作奸犯科的人免死金牌，給了他八道免死金牌，真的是讓人民非常的心寒。這八道免死金牌，讓人民覺得非常的錯愕。","另外，我也想要請問警政署跟法務部，這個憲法判決等於是讓犯罪的成本有上限，就如同常常聽到犯罪的人說反正又不會被判死刑，所以是不是會擔憂這樣讓我們的治安更加的敗壞，也會製造檢警跟司法院的矛盾，會不會？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想現在死刑制度還是維持，現在也沒有說一定就不會判死刑，還是有判死的。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為司法院的報告裡面自己也有說要有共識，那我想請問這樣子什麼時候會有共識？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：那個所謂的共識是假設法務部訂定那一個，包含說最嚴重犯罪要具體化的刑法第五十七條甚至第六十三條的規定的話，我們會配合法務部去研究。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想我最後做個結論，這一次的大法官釋憲，讓我們人民看到的是大法官頒給了作奸犯科罪犯八道免死金牌，讓人非常的遺憾，大法官滿紙的荒唐、人民一把心酸淚，讓我們覺得對於未來非常的沒有光明，這個社會沒有公平正義可言。所以要再次強調，我們現在已經不只是反對廢除死刑，我們也反對廢除實質的死刑，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位我們請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員。","下一位我們請牛煦庭委員發言。"],["牛委員煦庭：（12：44）好，謝謝主席，司法院秘書長有請。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們都不知道該怎麼說這個事，我們就從個案開始講起吧，最近這個退休女老師的先搶再姦再殺的案件，是不是最嚴重犯行？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為這個是個案，我沒有參與這個案子的審理，那案子的卷證，我們各審的法官本於他自己審理的結果，本於他對法律的認知去做判斷，我們尊重。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以基本上是甩鍋給法官嘛，他們處理就好，對不對？他們認定就好，對不對？由他們來認定。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為個案，說實話，我們沒有接觸到這些卷證，我們恐怕不適宜在沒有接觸到全部的案情的時候，就隨意的就這個部分下判斷。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛有很多委員都有講了，舉出了不同的案件，擄人勒贖的、燒車的、吊死的、連續殺人的、隨機殺人的，都很嚴重，也都是殺人。現在司法院對於法院的這個大法官的詮釋，等於給了一大堆的裁量，又修改了門檻，現在還要全體一致決呀！這個實務上來講……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：各審級……"],["牛委員煦庭：會不會造成判決死刑更加困難，實務上來講，會不會？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，其實在憲判期之前，在兩公約之後，我們簽署公政公約之後，公政公約已經要求視個案最嚴重，那時候其實在沒憲判之前，有一些裁判就已經援引公政公約去設限，那這一次比較要求一些正當程序的部分。其實，法院的實務上面，真正判處死刑可能也不是簡簡單單的就會去達成，因為大家都知道這個是剝奪生命而且無可挽回的。"],["牛委員煦庭：不要在那裡繞圈子，在報告裡面其實你寫得很清楚了，給了一大堆，除了我們剛剛講法官自行可以按心證來認定是否是最嚴重之外，你也開了一大堆的後門，包含精神障礙等等。那我要問的是你們包含前面的這個釋憲的這些詮釋，跟你這幾天的報告、這些重點，我就問，你寫了一大堆保障加害者人權的各種條款跟各種條件，可是你在詮釋這個憲法的過程之中，你們有沒有考慮法律在社會中公信力的重要性，有沒有考量法律有維護社會秩序穩定跟人心安定的作用，有沒有？有的話請你拿出來講一講，我們從來都沒有看到這樣的事情，這些概念不重要嗎？秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我想憲法法庭當然是基於維護這個憲政秩序的穩定，因為憲法是整個國家最基本的，高於其他的法律，所以他解釋這個憲法的本質意旨，保障生命權這個意旨，我想大家都應該要尊重。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以你又推給大法官嘛，反正就他們解釋的，對不對？我們回歸到剛剛那個姦殺案來講，這其中有媒體的報導裡面講，就是他之所以可以逃過死刑，有很重要的原因是因為他是屬於隨機性、並非預謀的，所以並非最嚴重之行為。好，你從個人角度來講，你講預謀可能比隨機更嚴重，可是從社會的角度來講，難道隨機殺人帶給社會的危害比預謀殺人差嗎？我們剛剛幾個委員在下面討論，我們一致都認為，我想人民、百姓也都這樣認為，隨機殺人對治安的危害、對社會的影響，是比預謀殺人更嚴重的。可是從你們的詮釋、你們的想像、你們的主張裡面，他不是最嚴重，所以我們可以給他放一條生路，這不是胡鬧是什麼呢？剛剛我們也討論憲政秩序，講得真好，我們在修國會改革法案的時候，你講立法院擴權，我告訴你，現在司法院擴權，所有事情由你大法官說了算，然後你這個擴權侵害到的是什麼？侵害到的是整個社會對於我們司法系統的公信力，我今天這樣子的說法，秘書長你要反駁嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，大法官解釋憲法本來就是憲法的意旨大法官解釋，那各個機關，包含我們都必須要尊重。"],["牛委員煦庭：都要尊重，現在就是一群沒有民意基礎的蛋頭在搞擴權，然後把所有的權勢全抓在自己的手上，我們立法院是五權機關裡面最貼近民意的，我們今天如果不把這些話講清楚，我們有愧選民的所託啦！","法務部長，我要請教幾個問題，我們剛剛已經確定司法院對於最嚴重犯行大概也不會有什麼明確的定義跟跡證，那我們回到法務部的權責，法務部你總管下面的檢察系統，對於維護社會安定，你的想法是什麼？你覺得有沒有必要考量社會大眾的想法，跟法律維繫社會秩序的公信力跟安定性，有沒有必要考慮？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，所以我們一直主張死刑是合憲的，而且我們從那個憲判的辯論到目前，我們的立場都沒有改變過，但是既然憲判已經做這樣的一個判決出來，我們就是趕緊完善法律的……"],["牛委員煦庭：現在37個還沒有執行的，他們是不是現在也……"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個現在跟委員報告……"],["牛委員煦庭：他們會不會通通提非常上訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要看，因為這個還要調卷宗，這個整個是……"],["牛委員煦庭：有可能對不對？不一定。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個依憲法、訴訟法是檢察總長的職權，就這37個個案，我相信他會做妥適的……"],["牛委員煦庭：什麼時候會有結果？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒辦法跟委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：你沒辦法確定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒辦法保證，但是因為這37個個案，我想最高檢他們會用很嚴謹的態度去做一個審核……"],["牛委員煦庭：整個法務部系統對於這37個，你現在口口聲聲講它合憲，他講它合憲，什麼時候會執行？怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這部分，我們先看那個有大……"],["牛委員煦庭：司法院秘書長說解釋的是大法官……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在講是檢察總長處理……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要隨著運作的結果，我們審核的結果，我們才知道這個是不是要提非常上訴。"],["牛委員煦庭：以前在所謂大搞實質廢死的時代，很多時候是最後那張公文放在你桌子上，你就不批，對不對？以前當然不是你啦！現在經過了這樣的程序之後，放在你桌子上你會不會批？如果這37個經過程序之後，確定要執行的時候批不批？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個如果審核通過的話，當然要執行啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：當然要執行齁，那你覺得你有沒有機會批到？我們現在擔心的，民間擔心是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法幫委員……我想這部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：我要提醒部長的是，民間擔心的是這37個案例可能到了最後，十幾二十年以後，大概也不會放在你桌上，這就是大家擔心的事，對不對？我們有太多後門了，太多機會、太多巧門可以逃開了，這個是社會的一大悲哀！現在對於釋憲後修法的方向同樣，通篇照顧加害人權，對於被害者、被害家屬、社會穩定的重要性跟權利隻字未提，我不知道兩位是忘記了還是害怕想起來，但是我要嚴肅的提醒，如果這個事情未來沒有標準、沒有依據，它只會讓事情更複雜，鄭捷難道不是隨機殺人嗎？他不就槍斃了嗎？然後你現在講隨機殺人好像沒有這麼嚴重，那為什麼當初槍斃他？這個未來難道不會變成「哎呀，我看看民意聲浪，必要的時候，我才走一下程序，不必要的時候，我就放在那個地方」，這樣子對這一群犯罪的人權才是真正的加害。真正能夠捍衛人權的方式，反而是把標準訂定的很明確而且依法執行，這才是正確的，我不知道我們在這邊講會不會變成狗吠火車，但是司法院、法務部未來的作為大家都在看，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。","我也是覺得無冤無仇就殺人其實比有冤有仇殺人更可惡，結果這次的法院判決竟然認為兩個是相反，它認為說他是隨機是偶然的，所以這個惡性沒有預謀大，我認為我沒有辦法理解這個實務上面的見解是什麼。","接下來我們請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","林思銘委員、林思銘委員、林思銘委員。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：（12：52）主席謝謝，麻煩請法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，剛剛牛煦庭講說不知道會不會是狗吠火車，我們已經擔憂了，這根本就狗吠火車。因為大法官做出這樣的一個解釋之後，真的會讓國人很擔心，臺灣是不是之後是非不分了。殺人不管是有冤有仇、無冤無仇，殺人就應該償命，因為你是殺人哪！重點是殺人這件事情，可是到最後現在變成是好像我們的標準已經浮動了。","我再請教，當然個案很難做一個釐清跟討論，可是本席不禁想到上個禮拜，新北市發生一件非常令人難過的事情，一個毒販開車，我們有一個英勇的員警所長去盤查，看他覺得奇怪，颱風天前夕怎麼會停在路邊，就去盤查，這個毒販心生恐懼或是有任何的狀況，他駕車逃逸，讓這個所長掛在那個門窗外面，到最後毒販為了要擺脫那個勇警所長，往護欄旁邊撞，造成所長因為這樣被撞擊過大而離開了。這一個毒蟲這一個毒販已經多次前科，而且當天是毒駕，那本席以及國人不禁要問，如果以現在大法官的釋憲來講的話，這一個毒蟲是不是到時候不會被判死刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為大法官釋憲它是針對故意殺人的這部分，以及殺人的結合犯這部分來做一個解釋。但是委員關心的問題，其實說實在的，我看了這個新聞真的很難過，因為那個警察是非常優秀，建中又師大畢業……"],["洪委員孟楷：非常非常優秀的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：非常優秀的，而且非常負責盡職……"],["洪委員孟楷：他原本是在本席的選區三芝當所長，之後到竹圍當所長，甚至我聽很多的員警同仁講說，他已經有念應該是碩士還是博士，學歷也非常好，非常盡責，那之後調去才不到兩年的時間。部長，就直接請問，以現在的這樣狀況，如果到最後，對於這樣的毒蟲，我跟他也無冤無仇，我也不知道他是誰，但他犯下這樣的一個犯行就是法理難容啊，如果這個法理難容的情況，到時候變成是我們一審、二審、三審，還要幾個職業法官都一致同意，甚至你剛剛講了，如果他不是當初以殺人來做這個犯行的話，說不定他還可以逃過，變成只有有期徒刑，還不是無期徒刑，國人能接受嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我想檢察官也都是認為這個被告行為可惡，而且合乎羈押的一個要件，那有逃亡之虞，這部分檢察官也聲請法官羈押獲准，這個案件剛發生不久，我想這部分檢察官會妥適的偵辦，追究被告的犯行，從嚴追訴。那我想這部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：從嚴，最嚴可以到什麼程度？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分還要看案情的一個釐清，因為我沒辦法跟委員做報告，是不是說他一個毒駕，毒駕是毒駕過失致死，或肇事逃逸過失致死，這個刑責非常重，我想檢察官也會依照那個證據來認定犯罪事實，我想委員關心的這個問題，是不是故意的，這部分我想檢察是會一併的來了解清釐。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席沒有要指導辦案，但是上禮拜看到這樣的一個新聞，真的，我們不要每一次都是今天公祭明天忘記，尤其這個所長他還有兩個小孩，一個一歲、一個四歲，真的非常難過……"],["鄭部長銘謙：有兩個女兒，這個新聞我也是很注意。"],["洪委員孟楷：真的非常難過。拉回來，我們這次講，因為我們現在也有推動國民法官法，在國民法官法裡面，其實它有兩個條件是可以讓國民法官來共同參與的，一個是最輕十年以上的有期徒刑，一個是故意犯罪而發生死亡結果者，對不對？所以可以讓國民法官來共同參與嘛，但是現在大法官如果釋憲完之後，是不是即便國民法官認為他是要判死刑，但是只要有職業法官不認為、不同意的話，他一樣不會被判到死刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個理解是這樣，這個是不是可以請司法院來回答……"],["洪委員孟楷：司法院代秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這一次的那個憲判就是國民法官的法庭是三位職業法官跟六位的國民法官……"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：那依照這個憲判的話，這三位的職業法官那都必須為死刑的一致決，然後六位國民法官裡面只要有三位的話，那這樣就達到國民法官的三分之二死刑，死刑的這個門檻。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但是本席的問題啊，本席的問題是如果說今天就我剛剛這樣子討論，國民法官六位都認為他是應該要判處死刑，但只要有一位職業法官不同意，或職業法官沒有認為說要判死刑，他是不是就可以逃過？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：那這樣我們推動國民法官的意義何在？我們當初推動國民法官的意義，不就是認為少數的法官讓大家覺得是恐龍法官，也因此抹煞了大部分法官的努力，而造成我們認為就應該要用正常我們社會大眾共識的一個標準。你們廣告做得很好啊！找峮峮、找其他那些來拍廣告，很好啊！本席也有看到啊，那你不就是要講賣菜的大姐也可以來參與，專家學者也可以來參與，一般的市井小民也可以來參與，我們就是用我們一般人的常識來去判案，所以六名國民法官比不上一個職業法官，要不要修法？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這個國民法官當然要配合這個憲判去修，但是本來的國民法官法裡面就是規定說，今天假設做有罪判決的話，職業法官本來就最少要有一位，只是說這一次憲判要求死刑的，只針對死刑，不是死刑的部分也沒有這個問題，死刑案件才這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以我們現在討論就是死刑部分，我們召委要討論的就是死刑的部分，當然國人嘩然也是死刑的部分啊，就認為是說你明明……雖然大法官講很好聽叫做合憲，但叫做有條件合憲，結果實質上就是往廢死的方向走，所以國人才會嘩然嘛，才會認為是非不分嘛，我現在延續我剛剛一開始的質詢到現在的問題，都還是強調既然我們當初認為有漏洞，我們把它補起來，沒想到大法官釋憲又再出了一個漏洞，那我們要不要補這個漏洞？再者，你的國民法官法之前就已經講了，什麼樣是國民法官可以參與判刑，一個就是犯最輕本刑為十年以上有期徒刑者，另外一個是故意犯罪因而發生死亡結果者。換言之，你們也認為國民法官要進來就是比較重的犯行，要嘛就十年以上的，要嘛就是死亡的，所以既然都已經有這樣子的一個前提條件了，代表國民法官審理的案件很有可能是有死刑的裁量空間的，可是大法官給一個巧門，只要職業法官三個有一個不同意，不好意思！你們六個國民法官講，不聽、不算。這樣嚴不嚴重？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，大法官是一再強調判死刑，死刑的宣判是無可挽回的，所以它要求最嚴謹，今天講這……"],["洪委員孟楷：我當然知道不能挽回啊！人死了也不能挽回啊！所長離開也不能挽回啊！秘書長，代秘書長，記得一個禮拜前我在總質詢的時候質詢行政院院長，那時候部長也講要用兩年的時間趕快把漏洞補齊要修法。如果這樣，我覺得這是一個很大的漏洞，本席也會提出相關修法，我希望司法院也要有態度，不是大法官說什麼就算什麼，法律制度是我們希望往一個更好的臺灣邁進，如同召委常講對好人越好壞人越壞，而不是好像壞人我們想方設法幫他找巧門、找漏洞，然後對於好人……這麼好的一個人！謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請回。","今天所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員林思銘所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:03:46","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:38:55+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155186","委員名稱":"邱若華","duration":226,"start_time":"2024-10-07T12:35:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b49320aaaeb8f186c763825024566f032902b5ac217a49bd2e2ecd922d4e3181d0355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.202843750000001,"end":10.020968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.10909375,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.20596875,"end":25.410968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.512218750000002,"end":27.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.570968750000002,"end":47.922218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.17534375,"end":62.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.569718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主席請我們環境部彭部長請問這次風災過後對後續可能會引發登革熱的問題 貴部在政策上有什麼作為"},{"start":29.178,"end":47.684,"text":"整個燈格熱是尋到刷青啦齁那這個我們會加強這個宣導的力道那另外一個雙北這次是一個主要的新的熱區所以我們會跟地方環保單位一起來做一些熱區的這個清消的工作那南部來說的話會持續的加大的來辦理那個過去我們跟衛福部有一個相互配合的措施"},{"start":48.323,"end":50.526,"text":"請問部長燈格熱防治跟清除積水容器還有化學瓶藥哪一個應該優先?"},{"start":68.977,"end":89.083,"text":"應該是這個優先然後最後才是化學噴藥但是其實這個吼我到過這個南部幾個縣市有幾個做得好的話都是主動稽查的部隊因為有些的這個空地或是民眾不知道他就會有些積的積水的這個發生他們會有些人去做檢查這個加大力道檢查這個才是最好的做法"},{"start":89.383,"end":116.341,"text":"市民本身也有研究我們國內就是有關這個政策的論文有發現幾個問題首先是政立宣導是一回事那民眾是否真的會動手清除積水的容器還有隱藏性的滋生原積水容器是否清除那實際成效是另外一回事那第二在防治在防疫政策需要噴藥的時候民眾是否對其有充分的了解我們我們環境部有去了解嗎民眾是否了解噴藥是什麼樣的用藥嗎"},{"start":119.623,"end":133.438,"text":"我們請我們署長來跟委員報告這一個在如果有發生登革熱比較高峰期的時候其實都會成立那個應變中心那應變中心就會有相關的專家去檢討應該使用什麼藥如何噴"},{"start":136.02,"end":158.788,"text":"本期會特別提到像是去年在登革熱疫情的時候第一線人員噴藥跟民眾發生衝突的新聞還歷歷在目有特別把去年的新聞接出來那本期建議部長在執行登革熱防治的時候要重視跨部會的合作跟經濟相關的危機監測那特別是溝通方式要更靈活更彈性還有我們來適度的調整"},{"start":160.128,"end":182.995,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":186.069,"end":205.571,"text":"我們也看到在防治的時候有其他的事端延伸那本席希望部長就以上上開的建議在兩個月內給本席一個書面報告OK嗎OK好 報告委員這個其實有是家戶是屬於衛生局在負責的啦那我們是戶外的所以我剛剛看到委員這幾個大概都是室內的是衛生局的工作"},{"start":206.365,"end":207.026,"text":"邱若華最標準"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:35:09 - 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State這是國務院官方網站這個稱不稱為官方資訊我覺得不會拿來路不明的媒體寫一些來路不明的資訊上來諮詢"},{"start":90.422,"end":116.189,"text":"這樣就不負責任嘛這是美國國務院他們公開在網站上面SEC官方文件也出來了我為什麼會關心這件事情美國國務院說從2017年8月到2023年9月雷神公司因為經過好幾次的合併現在合併完了以後跟名叫做RTXRTX這家公司幹了什麼事情"},{"start":117.129,"end":136.254,"text":"國防物品機密資料沒有經過授權就出口到中國去我看了這個報告我很擔心更擔心的是什麼向中國採購PWBPWB就是印刷電路板這個印刷電路板會用在非常多的地方"},{"start":136.954,"end":150.836,"text":"而這個PWB它會用在販售到其他國家的軍機上面然後把這些軍購的項目有涉及到的軍機全面都列出來了我只是基於善意"},{"start":152.353,"end":170.783,"text":"國防部到目前為止針對於美國的國務院他們已經做出了認定而且在行政上面跟他和解先賠1億美金完了以後後面是情況再追加另外1億美金這件事情啊國防部有沒有掌握"},{"start":172.992,"end":187.859,"text":"我們下去會再進一步了解一下再麻煩部長稍微了解一下順便跟美方問一下因為這個從美國人的觀點不是機密質詢我全部從他們國務院的官方網站"},{"start":189.13,"end":217.343,"text":"就可以下載到他裡面所認定違反的太陽他把這些機密的資訊包括竟然向中國採購印刷電路板在他們自己各式各樣的軍機上我看了嚇壞了希望這些東西沒有用在賣到台灣的武器上因為我沒有辦法一筆一筆去核對嘛那比較清楚的資訊可能在美方那邊這個部分可能要"},{"start":218.365,"end":233.125,"text":"除了有關於overcharge的部分錢要要回來以外針對國務院所做出來這麼嚴重對於RTX違反出口管制規定是不是會影響到台灣這個部分可能要請國防部了解一下可以嗎"},{"start":233.832,"end":235.773,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":254.881,"end":267.794,"text":"防彈背心我們國軍用的防彈背心竟然有不肖的商人從中國進口假的防彈纖維布這根本是為了私利置國家安全與不顧"},{"start":269.741,"end":295.389,"text":"在市場上面大家都知道防彈背心我也不曉得當初價格是怎麼定的利潤很高啦利潤高它會造成什麼樣的效果我看到一堆本業根本不是在搞防彈背心的通通都來標有那種什麼賣電鍋的公司啦電腦公司啦全部都來標我們的抗彈纖維部那他們來標他也不是自己"},{"start":296.325,"end":299.427,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":319.148,"end":343.419,"text":"這件事情我就問了公共工程委員會大眾電腦得標大同公司得標背後有公衛公司然後有一群也不是一群就特定的幾個人他們一下有不同的公司在那邊賺轉包的錢之前大家開始質疑的時候前部長邱國正他證實"},{"start":349.847,"end":368.297,"text":"不像廠商進口中國製交貨賺1.7億價差這個是前部長證實的事情那當然出現了這樣子的弊案啊解掉該偵辦的該偵辦該坐牢的去坐牢沒什麼好說的那但是這不像的廠商我們一定要處理嘛"},{"start":369.955,"end":389.271,"text":"兩年前有人問國防部說那為什麼這些不肖的廠商沒有停權結果國防部的回應說因為工程會調解所以沒有列政府採購公報我上個禮拜問工程會的主委工程會的主委說工程會的調解歸調解停權歸停權是兩碼子事"},{"start":391.152,"end":403.648,"text":"一個是私人糾紛另外一個牽涉到公共利益然後我上禮拜質詢完了以後你們國防部也有官員來找我了解那請問你像了解你們當初到底國防部是誰做這樣子的回應"},{"start":405.114,"end":405.795,"text":"國防部是誰做這樣的回應?"},{"start":427.693,"end":440.745,"text":"大同公司的部門當時回應說在跟調解這個講法應該是不正確的應該是說所以這是錯誤的訊息嗎就是說他是要向工程會提出申訴的時候呢依照政府採購102條吧我記得是這樣"},{"start":443.387,"end":444.547,"text":"所以現在工程會還沒有做出決定?"},{"start":470.972,"end":495.191,"text":"還沒有還沒有因為他應該是這份這個資料是8月23號向工程會提出沒有關係那我會再回去追工程會喔對那因為現在我發現的狀況是我上個禮拜問工程會工程會把皮球踢給國防部說國防部啊根本沒有申請他停權那顯然上個禮拜工程會主委在接受詢答的時候他所提供的訊息不是正確的現在我們把他釐清了啦是因為"},{"start":496.292,"end":524.141,"text":"國防部有要給他停權但他提申訴現在還卡在工程會是因為工程會的關係到現在才沒停權這樣對吧因為他823才向工程會提出申訴按照政府採購等工程會的申訴審判出來之後才給停權不好意思這個是2022年就發生的事情對但是是最近才提出那個應該是不是喔那如果2022年的時候國防部那時候有沒有提報他停權"},{"start":524.983,"end":548.12,"text":"我們是依照這個起訴書這112年的起訴書然後在113年5月13號通知大航空陳述意見然後6月27號的時候我們的審議將這個該公司要刊登政府採購公報然後他提出意義之後8月9號我們駁回他駁回他之後在8月23號向工廠會提出這個具體處理的時程是不是可以麻煩部長"},{"start":549.321,"end":566.839,"text":"你們會提供一個詳細書面的列表讓所有的委員都可以知道因為大家很關心這件事啊這種垃圾公司啊不孝廠商啊從中國進防彈纖維部啊開什麼玩笑啊致我們國軍弟兄的生命安危於不顧啊"},{"start":568.57,"end":595.287,"text":"這一定要重重懲罰嘛該停權就要停嘛如果大同公司如果大同公司在程序上面要做這樣子的拖延我們也要讓社會大眾知道嘛所以現在大同公司到底在搞什麼東西嘛除了大同跟大眾以外啊後面分包的廠商包括工位包括那些不法分子所控制的廠商有參與國防部標案的是不是應該要一併停權"},{"start":596.596,"end":596.616,"text":"部長"},{"start":622.381,"end":627.405,"text":"請你們回去跟工程會稍微商量一下我為什麼說跟工程會商量一下最惡質的就是背後這個工位嘛"},{"start":652.188,"end":672.599,"text":"其實我們搞了半天停權的對象不包括最惡質的工位讓他可以繼續胡搞瞎搞這樣對嗎?你聽得懂我的意思嗎?你如果了解整個案情的話就知道最惡質的就是背後面的廠商嘛結果最後面的廠商沒有辦法處理到這樣對嗎?這個是我的問題"},{"start":676.343,"end":696,"text":"部長沒有關係時間的關係先到這裡再麻煩部長請部內的同仁把具體的狀況了解完了以後我下一次質詢的時候再來追下面其他的問題我們來了解一下因為他現在就是說供貨的廠家跟這個分包商我們稍微把它理清楚一下好不好好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:27:21 - 12:38:58","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":"155185","gazette":{"lineno":720,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時27分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。早上機密報告裡面有關於雷神公司哄抬軍售價格的部分，我想部長態度已經表明得很清楚，配合美國政府的進度，把臺灣該要的錢要回來，我想這個態度基本上是正確的。只不過說這個雷神公司除了哄抬價格了以外，它涉及到的，我看美國的公開資訊，這不牽涉到任何機密的問題，我比較擔心的是它還違反出口管制規定。這個是在今年8月底的時候美國國務院所做出來的一個報告，針對這個部分，請問一下國防部有沒有掌握？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，這個部分美方並沒有把這個資訊提供給我們。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是公開資訊啊！不用美國政府提供給你們啊！"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，我們在軍售的部分，我們主要是以美方提供的官方文件為主要依據。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是Department of State，這是國務院官方網站，這個稱不稱為官方資訊？我絕對不會拿來路不明的媒體，寫一些來路不明的資訊上來質詢，這樣就不負責任嘛！這是美國國務院他們公開在網站上面，SEC官方文獻也出來了。","我為什麼會關心這一件事情？美國國務院說，從2017年8月到2023年9月，雷神公司因為經過好幾次的合併，現在合併完了以後，更名叫做RTX。RTX這家公司幹了什麼事情？國防物品、機密資料沒有經過授權就出口到中國去。我看了這個報告，我很擔心，更擔心的是什麼？向中國採購PWB，PWB就是印刷電路板，這個印刷電路板會用在非常多的地方，而這個PWB它會用在販售到其他國家的軍機上面，然後把這些軍購的項目，有涉及到的軍機全面都列出來了。","我只是基於善意。國防部到目前為止，針對於美國的國務院他們已經做出了認定，而且在行政上面跟它和解，先賠1億美金，完了以後，後面視情況再追加另外1億美金，這件事情國防部有沒有掌握？"],["顧部長立雄：我們下去會再進一步瞭解一下。"],["黃委員國昌：再麻煩部長稍微瞭解一下，順便跟美方問一下，因為從美國人的觀點，這個不是機密資訊，我全部從他們國務院的官方網站就可以download到它裡面所認定違反的態樣。它把這一些機敏的資訊，包括竟然向中國採購印刷電路板，在他們自己各式各樣的軍機上，我看了嚇壞了，希望這些東西沒有用在賣到臺灣的武器上，因為我沒有辦法一筆一筆去核對，比較清楚的資訊可能在美方那邊。除了有關於overcharge的部分，錢要拿回來以外，針對國務院所做出來這麼嚴重、對於RTX違反出口管制規定是不是會影響到臺灣這個部分，可能要請國防部瞭解一下，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們瞭解。我想我們購買的相關軍購物品上面，如果有牽涉到我國的話，一般美國會跟我們進行照會。現在為止我們沒有接獲相關的照會，不過既然委員提及，我們會主動跟美國來進行瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝部長。下一個問題是，我們國軍用的防彈背心，竟然有不肖的商人從中國進口假的防彈纖維布，這根本是為了私利，置國家安全於不顧。我也不曉得當初防彈背心價格是怎麼訂的，在市場上面大家都知道利潤很高，利潤高會造成什麼樣的效果？我看到一堆本業根本不是在搞防彈背心的通通都來標，有那種什麼賣電鍋的公司、電腦公司全部都來標我們的抗彈纖維布。他們來標，它也不是自己生產，全部轉包給其他的廠商，他們中間賺一手就對了。","所以從國防部軍備局2017年、2018年、2019年的採購，甚至到2020年最近互億科技，結果得標的這些廠商背後都是同一群不肖的人。這件事情我就問了公共工程委員會，大眾電腦得標，大同公司得標，背後有攻衛公司，然後有一群，也不是一群，就特定的幾個人，他名下有不同的公司在那邊賺轉包的錢。之前大家開始質疑的時候，前部長邱國正證實不肖廠商進口中國製交貨賺1.7億元價差，這個是前部長證實的事情。","當然出現了這樣的弊案，檢調該偵辦的要偵辦，該坐牢的去坐牢，沒什麼好說的，但是不肖的廠商我們一定要處理嘛！兩年前有人問國防部，說為什麼這些不肖的廠商沒有停權，結果國防部的回應說，因為工程會調解，所以沒有列政府採購公報。我在上個禮拜問工程會的主委，工程會的主委說，工程會的調解歸調解，停權歸停權，是兩碼子事，一個是私人糾紛，另外一個牽涉到公共利益。我在上禮拜質詢完了以後，你們國防部也有官員來找我瞭解。那請問你一下，了解你們當初到底國防部是誰做這樣子的回應？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，就兩個部分，一個是牽扯到大眾公司，一個牽扯到大同公司。就這個部分的話，大眾公司已經被停權了……"],["黃委員國昌：那是2024年嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：對，沒有，2024年……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下！我們一個層次、一個層次來談。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我在問的是，2022年國防部是誰做這樣的回應？"],["顧部長立雄：大同公司的部分當時回應說在調解，這個講法應該是不正確的，應該是說……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個是錯誤的訊息嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：就是它要向工程會提出申訴的時候，依照政府採購法第一百零二條，我記得是這樣，是要等到工程會提出申訴審議判斷之後才能進行停權，所以不是講說要調解不能停權。應該正確的講法是說，大同公司提出異議之後，我們國防部駁回之後，他們向工程會提出申訴，那工程會做出申訴審議判斷之後，就可以停權，而不是……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在工程會還沒有做出決定？"],["顧部長立雄：還沒有，這份資料是8月23號向工程會提出……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，那我會再回去追工程會哦！因為現在我發現的狀況是，我在上個禮拜問工程會，工程會把皮球踢給國防部，說國防部根本沒有申請它停權，那顯然上個禮拜工程會主委在接受詢答的時候，他所提供的訊息不是正確的。現在我們把它釐清了，是因為國防部有要給它停權，但它提申訴，現在還卡在工程會，是因為工程會的關係到現在才沒停權，這樣對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：因為它8月23號才向工程會提出申訴，按照政府採購法，要等工程會的申訴審議判斷出來之後，才可以停權。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下！不好意思！這個是2022年就發生的事情。"],["顧部長立雄：對，但是是最近才提出……應該是……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊！如果是2022年的時候，國防部那時候有沒有提報它停權？"],["顧部長立雄：我們是依照112年的起訴書，然後在113年5月13號通知大同公司陳述意見，然後6月27號的審議將該公司要刊登政府採購公報，然後它提出異議之後，8月9號我們駁回它，駁回它之後，在8月23號向工程會提出……"],["黃委員國昌：具體處理的時程，是不是可以麻煩部長你們會後提供一個詳細書面的列表？"],["顧部長立雄：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：讓所有的委員都可以知道，因為大家很關心這件事。這種垃圾公司、不肖廠商從中國進防彈纖維布，開什麼玩笑！置我們國軍弟兄的生命安危於不顧，這一定要重重懲罰嘛！該停權就要停嘛！如果大同公司在程序上面要做這樣子的拖延，我們也要讓社會大眾知道現在大同公司到底在搞什麼東西。除了大同跟大眾以外，後面分包的廠商，包括攻衛以及那些不法份子所控制的廠商，有參與國防部標案的，是不是應該要一併停權？"],["顧部長立雄：根據政府採購法的規定，我們是只對得標的廠商來……"],["黃委員國昌：來，看一下！機關依照採購法第一百零一條第一項，對廠商的通知屬於行政罰，對象除了違反所定採購法或採購契約義務的廠商之外，還包括分包廠商，非以得標廠商為限。部長？"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分是不是請採購室來回答？"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，攻衛不是分包廠商，它是大同和大眾後面的……"],["黃委員國昌：轉包廠商？"],["趙主任亞平：不是，不是轉包，它是供貨源，供貨的廠商，它也不是分包給它，定義不一樣，它的角色不是分包。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！請你們回去跟工程會稍微商量一下。我為什麼說跟工程會商量一下？最惡質的就是背後這個攻衛嘛！結果我們搞了半天，停權的對象不包括最惡質的攻衛，讓它可以繼續胡搞瞎搞，這樣對嗎？你聽得懂我的意思嗎？你如果瞭解整個案情的話，就知道最惡質的就是背後的廠商，結果最後面那個廠商沒有辦法處理到，這樣對嗎？這個是我的問題。","部長，沒有關係，因為時間的關係，先到這裡，再麻煩部長請部內的同仁把具體的狀況瞭解完了以後，我下一次質詢的時候，再來追下面其他的問題。"],["顧部長立雄：好，我們來瞭解一下。現在就是供貨的廠家跟分包商我們稍微把它釐清楚一下，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請國防部也列表給每一個委員。謝謝黃國昌委員，部長請回。","接下來請林俊憲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:08:44","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:36:03+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155184","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","duration":524,"start_time":"2024-10-07T12:27:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493302a0f53fc0c81d37ccd4a11965e08acb5ac217a49bd2e2eb72eae049c66d9735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.7434687500000003,"end":7.523468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.995968750000001,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.67471875,"end":12.349718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.560343750000001,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.85534375,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.78284375,"end":23.774093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.195968750000002,"end":25.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.01846875,"end":29.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.84909375,"end":32.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03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start":91.715,"end":106.837,"text":"委員那個案個案獨立審判的情形他的情節怎麼樣說實話我們尊重獨立審判這個是司法院的這個職責大法官的這個解釋出來很多人也講大法官這一個其實"},{"start":108.297,"end":123.535,"text":"並沒有說它是說死刑是違憲的它只是要求設定在個案情節最嚴重跟符合憲法最嚴密的正當法律程序只要符合這些東西還是可以判處死刑的那將來"},{"start":126.419,"end":147.11,"text":"將來如果說個案的這個情形我相信維護這個社會的治安跟有沒有判這個死刑恐怕是不是有這麼直接的這些關聯我想這個大家是可以討論的但是死刑就成如如果像剛才委員所講的目前正好在我們的除了最近發生這一件那麼其他國家也正好發生一件"},{"start":148.09,"end":149.191,"text":"這是你的回答我讓社會大眾"},{"start":174.275,"end":181.032,"text":"楊瓔"},{"start":184.148,"end":211.898,"text":"跟委員報告我們認為死刑是核限的那這次憲判議址也是認為死刑核限但是對那個屬於那個故意殺人這部分他是認為是屬於個案犯罪刑最嚴重的罪那但是還要他是要求要再進行嚴密的正當的法律程序所以這些程序補足了這個就可以判處死就可以把這個危險的處理掉那我們現在該進行的就是要趕緊修法"},{"start":212.358,"end":212.378,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":225.802,"end":226.342,"text":"請求處死刑"},{"start":250.014,"end":272.429,"text":"我要請社會大眾聽到政府的回應在大家面對這個困境義憤填膺的時候得不到政府的保障安全的時候我們的政府部門所做的回應是如此我們也拭目以待但是本席還是要告訴大家這樣子的解釋"},{"start":274.19,"end":283.736,"text":"是不是敲醒了司法正義已死的喪鐘我們台灣的司法還有正義嗎我請社會來公平請這個司法院請回座法務部部長我想要跟你討論一個問題也就是目前全台灣我們總共大概有五萬五千個受刑人"},{"start":300.731,"end":325.621,"text":"那麼這些受刑人不管是他在怎麼樣的情況就是在我們的看守所或監獄裡頭那我們看到目前監獄相關最多的是什麼呢殺人、搶劫、性侵不是而是什麼?毒品犯對不對?第二個是什麼最多?詐欺"},{"start":328.024,"end":348.826,"text":"所以換句話說五萬五千人裡頭有三萬三千人就是詐欺跟這個毒品犯我們在這樣的情況之下難免大家會認為有輕判將刑期打到骨折的這個情況"},{"start":350.379,"end":368.604,"text":"所以因為將刑期打到骨折導致債範率會高尤其這兩個三萬三千人的回籠率會高我們用實質的質化量化來看我們的政策所以影響整個社會秩序"},{"start":369.83,"end":370.971,"text":"關於那個假釋問題齁我們是採那個"},{"start":389.775,"end":413.133,"text":"那個核死來神和寬延兵器,我們認為有加化的效果的話,我們達到角色門檻,我們盡量就會給它核准出去了。依法你目前是如此﹖對﹖但是我們所呈現的社會現象是如此﹖對﹖該怎麼辦﹖對﹖你覺得也沒辦法啊﹖對﹖你已經抄說了這麼多啊,你再預估你們現在容納量你抄說了多少啊﹖"},{"start":413.7,"end":413.86,"text":"請說明一下"},{"start":432.165,"end":446.728,"text":"報告委員我們的合訂收容人大概是6萬人左右那目前前台的收容人大概是5萬8千多所以我們目前是沒有超收但是在北部地區是有超收集中"},{"start":448.029,"end":462.938,"text":"對 北部地區像北間、別所還有我們台原監獄跟宜蘭監獄它是有稍微超收大概將近兩成其他是還好尤其比如外藝監或是少年角色的學校這邊都沒有超收的問題"},{"start":464.4,"end":489.902,"text":"早上屬於一個回答還好我心驚膽跳因為部長我已經告訴你了因為其實你們也背了一個黑鍋送到你這裡來你你不說不行但是一個政府應該他在整個橫向他必須是嚴密聯繫的這才是對的所以我希望你們勇於去提出你們的困境出來才不會讓人民這麼樣的恐慌"},{"start":490.644,"end":494.824,"text":"我們已經從上頭的原則、制度、方案"},{"start":495.99,"end":520.198,"text":"法律到講到結果論山蘇政策整個山蘇我們這個國家到底出了什麼事部長所以我也希望你們勇於提出你們的困境我們大家一起好好的讓台灣不是一個犯罪天堂好嗎你也把剛剛本席所提問的請你書面資料怎麼樣經濟方案也給本席好嗎謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:27:19 - 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有請彭部長部長請"},{"start":15.001,"end":31.782,"text":"吳委員好部長您好在南投縣新義鄉他們原本要做一個垃圾轉運站環保園區但是在2021年開始他們因為在他們的明德村的門口"},{"start":32.543,"end":36.064,"text":"我個人呢是在2023年的2月接獲地方的陳情因為垃圾已經堆得又寬又廣又高"},{"start":49.409,"end":71.052,"text":"那我3月去做了一個現刊的協調會議我在這邊是要跟您說在環保署升格為環境部的這一段時間很謝謝當時與會的一位環保署的長官他很有擔當他就當場說6個月一定全部清雨萬壁"},{"start":72.493,"end":85.318,"text":"那我要跟您說他確實見急屢急在10月垃圾全部清運完畢那這個部分其實是我是要代替明德村的村民要特別他們托我說要謝謝就讓您知道"},{"start":87.839,"end":90.001,"text":"那另外就是在今年臺東蘭嶼我也是一樣接到鄉公所跟我澄清我要跟您說"},{"start":109.539,"end":125.389,"text":"蘭嶼這幾年觀光非常的興盛垃圾越來越多其實在地的居民也一直跟我講非常的擔憂他們的垃圾運不出去在7月的時候糟糕了就有垃圾事件發生了"},{"start":126.169,"end":141.176,"text":"您知道我從7月4日的晚間接到通報就一直協助他們一直到7月9日的晚間那我怎麼辦呢當時你要知道他是倒其實你要叫消防署我也跟署長聯繫"},{"start":142.807,"end":158.78,"text":"﹗"},{"start":158.96,"end":188.1,"text":"大家怨聲載道阿那六天空汙好可怕又難聞整個島都是煙霧瀰漫非常的可怕那我其實要講的是說我們最近阿像這個在梨山垃圾瀑布經常時有所聞垃圾瀑布在燒特別是在年節更容易燒你看他都還在本島欸在我們還要十天欸所以那個蘭嶼能夠燒個五六天完畢不容易"},{"start":188.9,"end":217.377,"text":"那而且我知道的是當年林佳龍市長他為了這個問題因為我們原住民地區所住的地方都不是在台縣所以當時林佳龍市長有補助公所500萬去做清運的費用讓他們可以送出去好那我其實只是想要問部長您說像這種山林島嶼成堆的垃圾山垃圾瀑布他焚燒之後衍生的這個空污問題我不曉得說因為我們都只有解決"},{"start":218.739,"end":221.006,"text":"那個災害消滅就好但是空污的問題怎麼辦"},{"start":222.466,"end":249.619,"text":"報告委員第一個是蘭嶼或是蘭嶼的問題我們希望未來可以有一個遮棚在這個室內來舉行這個問題就會比較少那至於說這個造成這個空汙或空氣汙染例如說它燃燒那燃燒一定會有短暫的空汙那其實我們環境部大概都會跟地方環保局有一些監測車去監控而且提醒這個民眾當這個淹到哪裡的時候要進行什麼樣的這個庇護的措施我們是有在進行好"},{"start":250.419,"end":273.155,"text":"但是這個都不夠對 不夠 我說再給我一個報告那我其實要講的就是延續就是這個垃圾瀑布這不是新的名詞其實五六十年前整個原住民部落都是垃圾瀑布然後一下雨就跟著那個山溝垃圾就這樣子污染土地污染下面的水源但是很遺憾"},{"start":274.236,"end":299.807,"text":"現在的這個時代還是看得到垃圾瀑布那就很遺憾了所以我想環境部這個部分一定要盡速的來解決這個問題那我知道的呢像經濟部水利署的北水特分署因為他們那個地方是翡翠水庫供應大台北的水源所以即便那邊的露營場都是違法的可是北水特分署呢他還是能夠自己編錢給區公所"},{"start":302.148,"end":325.62,"text":"去做一些承包的工作去處理這些污水他們設置的這個淨水槽呢叫那些露營區他只要負擔他們自己接管到廁所洗手台的接管費那我要講的是說其實我覺得環境部你們應該你們雖然是開罰的單位但是你們應該要跟這一些目的事業主管機關要主動積極坐下來談因為畢竟"},{"start":328.962,"end":349.471,"text":"最重要的就是我們土壤水源空氣的一個維護那我希望環境部這個地方能夠更努力那最後一個小小的我只是要講的是說垃圾越來越多以我自己的馬家鄉這個都是我每天收的簡訊你看他們都跟我抱怨什麼回到前一張他們都跟我抱怨說隊員回去換車"},{"start":353.192,"end":362.877,"text":"然後請村民等待等候通知這是我自己部落自己鄉的簡訊我每天都在看每天都在換車有時候的那個像我們的那個叫什麼現在的廚餘很快就滿了他們就說要回去好重點來了我問鄉公所說要不要幫你們叫那個要不要申請車他們也不要為什麼負擔不起啊"},{"start":378.504,"end":404.658,"text":"所以我覺得這個很多的問題我們要去了解因為追根究底就是原鄉垃圾侵運的量能不足那我知道現在我們有一個補助地方政府換購地攤垃圾車也有提到這一些原鄉地區會因為垃圾車輛不足然後怎麼樣怎麼樣可以提出相關佐證等等等那我只是希望就是讓部長您了解我們部落的巷弄狹窄啊"},{"start":406.058,"end":411.823,"text":"這個是我的部落那個垃圾車進不去的地方我們每一家還要花10塊錢給這個小貨車幫我們收垃圾現在衍生這個生意出來了所以原鄉很多特殊狀況我希望環境部能夠去盤點原鄉垃圾清運的需求我們的需求然後看怎麼樣優先補助徵購汰換"},{"start":429.197,"end":429.798,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:27:34 - 12:35:03","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155183","gazette":{"lineno":1129,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時27分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["彭部長啓明：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長，您好。南投縣信義鄉原本要做一個垃圾轉運站環保園區，但是從2021年開始，因為在他們的明德村的門口、門面暫置了垃圾，所以他們其實在2021年就開始陳抗，我個人是在2023年2月接獲地方的陳情，因為垃圾已經堆得又寬、又廣、又高。我3月去做了一個現勘的協調會議，我在這邊是要跟您說，在環保署升格為環境部的這段時間，很謝謝當時與會的一位環保署長官，他很有擔當，他當場說6個月一定全部清運完畢。我要跟您說，他確實劍及履及，在10月全部將垃圾清運完畢，這個部分我要代替明德村的村民，他們特別託我來說謝謝，就讓您知道。"],["彭部長啓明：委員可以告訴我是誰嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我真的不知道。您要謝謝他。"],["彭部長啓明：我去調查清楚再給他獎勵。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們很喜歡這樣，很有擔當。"],["彭部長啓明：好、好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：另外就是在今年，我也一樣接到臺東蘭嶼鄉公所跟我陳情。我要跟您說，蘭嶼這幾年觀光非常興盛，垃圾越來越多，其實在地居民也一直跟我講，他們非常擔憂，因為垃圾運不出去。在7月的時候，糟糕了，就有垃圾事件發生了！您知道，我從7月4號晚間接到通報，就一直協助他們，一直到7月9日晚間。我怎麼辦呢？你要知道，它是島，其實你要叫消防署，我也跟署長聯繫，很辛苦、很難，所以就調度了當地這些像台電的工程車等等，幫忙去覆土，做了6天，終於完畢。但是你可以看一下這些簡訊，大家怨聲載道啊！那6天空污好可怕，又難聞，整個島都是煙霧瀰漫，非常的可怕。我其實要講的是，最近像梨山垃圾瀑布在燒的事件時有所聞，特別是在年節更容易燒，你看它都還在本島，還要10天，所以蘭嶼能夠燒個五、六天完畢，不容易！而且我知道的是當年林佳龍市長為了這個問題……因為我們原住民所住的地區都不是在省道台線旁，所以當時林佳龍市長有補助公所500萬去做清運的費用，讓他們可以送出去。我其實只是想要問部長，像這種山林島嶼成堆的垃圾山、垃圾瀑布焚燒之後衍生的空污問題……因為我們都只有解決那個災害，消滅就好，但是我不曉得空污的問題怎麼辦。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個是蘭嶼，蘭嶼的問題，我們希望未來可以有一個遮棚，在這個室內來舉行，這個問題就會比較少，至於造成的空氣污染，例如它燃燒，燃燒一定會有短暫的空污，其實我們環境部大概都會跟地方環保局有一些監測車去監控，而且提醒民眾，當這個煙到哪裡的時候，要進行什麼樣的庇護措施，我們有在進行。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，之後再給……"],["彭部長啓明：但是這個都不夠，還是源頭減量……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，不夠。之後再給我一個報告。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我其實要講的就是延續，就是這個垃圾瀑布不是新的名詞，其實五、六十年前整個原住民部落都是垃圾瀑布，一下雨就跟著山溝，垃圾就這樣污染土地、污染下面的水源，但是很遺憾，現在這個時代還是看得到垃圾瀑布。環境部就這個部分一定要儘速解決這個問題。我知道像經濟部水利署的北水特分署，因為他們那個地方是翡翠水庫，供應大臺北的水源，所以即便那邊的露營場都是違法的，可是北水特分署還是能夠自己編錢給區公所去做一些承包的工作，處理這些污水，他們設置的淨水槽，叫那些露營區只要負擔自己接管到廁所、洗手臺的接管費。我要講的是，其實我覺得環境部雖然是開罰的單位，但是你們應該要跟這一些目的事業主管機關主動積極坐下來談，畢竟最重要的就是我們土壤、水源、空氣的維護，我希望環境部就這個地方能夠更努力。","最後一個小小的，我只是要講垃圾越來越多，以我自己的瑪家鄉……這個都是我每天收的簡訊，你看他們都跟我抱怨什麼？他們都跟我抱怨說隊員回去換車，請村民等待、等候通知。這是我自己部落自己鄉的簡訊，我每天都在看、每天都在換車，有時候像廚餘很快就滿了，他們就說要回去。重點來了，我問鄉公所要不要幫他們叫、他們要不要申請車，他們也不要，為什麼？負擔不起。","所以我覺得很多的問題我們要去了解，因為追根究柢就是原鄉垃圾清運的量能不足。我知道現在我們有補助地方政府換購低碳垃圾車，也有提到這一些原鄉地區會因為垃圾車輛不足，然後怎麼樣、怎麼樣，可以提出相關佐證等等。我只是希望讓部長了解，我們部落的巷弄狹窄，這個是我的部落，是垃圾車進不去的地方，我們每一家還要花十塊錢給這個小貨車幫我們收垃圾，現在衍生這個生意出來了。所以原鄉有很多特殊狀況，我希望環境部能夠去盤點原鄉垃圾清運的需求、我們的需求，然後看怎麼樣優先補助，增購汰換在地適合使用的這些小型車子，真的不行的地方，希望可以設置定點的子母車或有其他可行方案。可以在兩個禮拜內可以給我一個報告嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題，委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們也可以一起去看嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員、謝謝部長。","接續請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:14:37","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:27:29+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155182","委員名稱":"陳瑩","duration":877,"start_time":"2024-10-07T12:12:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493c324f9291aa54b75825024566f032902b5ac217a49bd2e2eedb2bd07d2a46ad15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.978468750000001,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.99471875,"end":16.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.14221875,"end":17.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.35721875,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.52971875,"end":23.453468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.453468750000003,"end":24.465968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.55034375,"end":25.883468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.938468750000002,"end":24.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.02284375,"end":25.090343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.23784375,"end":52.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.799093750000004,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.60471875,"end":57.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.94159375,"end":59.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.05971875,"end":65.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.945343750000006,"end":62.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.37096875,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.11346875000001,"end":67.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.47596875,"end":69.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.69096875000001,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.68659375,"end":70.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.53034375,"end":74.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.86284375000001,"end":81.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.55409375,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.93784375,"end":94.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.81784375000001,"end":97.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.08721875,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.68409375,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.43409375,"end":125.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.18846875000001,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.00096875,"end":140.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.56596875,"end":142.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.13971875000001,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.52284375000002,"end":177.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.43784375,"end":190.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.21221875,"end":193.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.77721875,"end":201.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.54471875000002,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.34971875000002,"end":207.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.68221875,"end":209.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.88034375,"end":207.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.47096875000003,"end":211.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.43659375000001,"end":215.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.68096875,"end":215.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.64284375000003,"end":219.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.56596875000002,"end":224.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.59096875,"end":227.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.12659375,"end":226.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.14721875,"end":229.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.41284375,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.91909375,"end":230.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.67846875,"end":230.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.88096875000002,"end":235.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.77471875,"end":238.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.98096875000002,"end":252.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.54409375000003,"end":254.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.77159375000002,"end":258.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.91471875,"end":261.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.20096875,"end":263.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.55534375,"end":2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49座但我想要請教如果減少的原因是推動或者是執行什麼樣的措施然後就可以在短短的8個月的時間裡面減少4座的這個裸露堆置的狀態報告委員這個大概第一個是復土然後第二個是打包這兩個方式就不要讓它露天裸露"},{"start":120.809,"end":140.229,"text":"所以那想請問一下就是你們復土主要的功能是?第一個它不是屬於永久的就把它埋掉了是因為未來如果量能夠的話或是有SRF好的技術的話它還是可以拿來做分類的所以等於是暫時的把它這個掩埋復土所以你們就是在視覺上先做處理"},{"start":140.829,"end":163.678,"text":"對先初步先處理那但是因為你復土之後那請問就是說就是說這個裸露堆置因為不是只有這個環境衛生部家會引起附近民眾的反感嘛他們一定很不滿那因為這個包括了就是惡臭地下水污染還有蚊蟲滋生還有輕運這個交通的這個時間交通的這些問題那有時候呢就是"},{"start":164.678,"end":192.804,"text":"也要伴隨需要就是說提供這個地方補償回饋金這些等等的問題那我不知道說你們這裡減少的試作是哪試作剛剛我講的那些問題都已經解決了嗎?其實這個第一個如果要掩埋腹土他的這個污水的處理一定要做到完全徹底都一定的一個規範那如果掩埋腹土之後因為他很厚所以他基本上就不會有這種惡臭的情況產生所以這個這個基本上很厚就不會有惡臭的"},{"start":192.944,"end":219.623,"text":"對阿他還要把他再包起來所以基本上就很像說我們現在我們有時候到內湖那個焚化廠的旁邊有一座山那個其實裡面也都是熱山對所以我剛剛提的二臭地下水蚊蟲滋生還有青雲這些通通都沒有問題都要做這個都是標準的但是你們現在復土之後都沒有這些問題他要復土之前都要先把它蓋住對啦你就跟我說現在完全都沒有這些問題就好了因為你都做好啦"},{"start":221.618,"end":226.72,"text":"就是那四座,四座也埋藏。就是都沒有問題了嗎?就復土起來就都沒有問題了?暫時沒有問題了。暫時?好,那我想就是說你剛剛講說垃圾都焚燒之後會去焚燒嗎?"},{"start":239.185,"end":266.098,"text":"還是它就是變成這個因為你們暫時堆置雖然是暫時的齁但是因為我不知道你們這個數學怎麼算因為你如果說減少了堆置場那等於就是多了掩埋場的意思啊這個都是在掩埋場裡面啦對啦因為你就覆蓋了覆蓋不就埋起來了嗎對就是另類的掩埋場它其實本來就是掩埋場"},{"start":267.31,"end":278.231,"text":"但是他我講的是堆置的部分對他堆置就是有一個是露天裸露堆在那個地方但是我們把它復起來然後他也不會造成環境景觀上的危害"},{"start":279.438,"end":307.027,"text":"未來他跟那個最終處置的這種所謂的像例如說內戶分很多的這個這個垃圾山的這樣處理是不一樣的我們時間的關係我們先往下去討論然後那這個就是說好因為我們看一下這個天下雜誌在今年9月4號出刊裡面的這個第102頁的這個環國就是我們的環關署的嚴署長有特別講就是不裸露就是妥善處理"},{"start":308.227,"end":319.263,"text":"你有特別講說這個是國際間接受的處理方式那本席想要請教就是說請問包含了哪些國家你講的這個國際間就包含了哪些國家"},{"start":322.044,"end":340.176,"text":"我們一般的垃圾處理有兩大主流一個是焚化一個是掩埋當然還有其他的例如說氣化等等我的問題沒有很複雜我只問說有哪些國家有接受這樣的方式比如說美國澳洲目前都還是使以掩埋為主的"},{"start":342.037,"end":360.067,"text":"主要大國。那哪些先進的國家?你說哪些是你剛除了講澳洲那還有哪些先進的大國有這樣處理?應該連日本也有。那你講到大國,德國算大國吧?德國也有。德國也這樣子處理?"},{"start":366.639,"end":378.626,"text":"因為我這樣主要是因為我查了一下德國的部分他們在2005年6月的時候開始他們就不允許這個未經處理的廢棄物就進入掩埋場"},{"start":383.248,"end":398.571,"text":"我國是根據公有廢棄物掩埋管理規範也就是從2007年1月1日開始我們也跟進所以大家可以看一下簡報所以這個是國際的做法還是國際的笑話還是說這個有公然違法的問題"},{"start":406.943,"end":413.289,"text":"因為我們有查詢到德國在2005年6月開始不允許未經處理的廢棄物進入掩埋場"},{"start":415.421,"end":418.484,"text":"我想我們查詢到的資料是這樣所以你說國際間都接受那我就不太清楚因為我們看到的這個文獻資料是這個樣子就提供給你們參考"},{"start":441.741,"end":461.962,"text":"部長,我要請教就是說垃圾裸露堆置這個場地選址是地方政府決定還是環境部那事先要不要經過環境影響評估?呃,要,要不要回答?是,跟委員報告目前他應該是說在現有的合法掩埋場裡面他進去應該做戶土或打包"},{"start":462.421,"end":481.274,"text":"但是他沒有做這件事情所以我們要求他依照標準的掩埋或處理的方式做處理所以就地方政府他們的問題嘛你的意思是這樣地方政府他管理的掩埋場垃圾也是地方政府地方政府誰管"},{"start":482.182,"end":497.743,"text":"我們督導的部門就是要求阿你們誰管誰監督就我們監督阿所以大家都有責任嘛好我也沒有說但我不會講說是地方政府的責任嘛我現在的說連我都有責任我都講進去我就不會講地方政府阿"},{"start":499.192,"end":528.278,"text":"好啦我這樣講給你參考不要講地方政府好嗎你們也有責任齁那 那個目前齁就是已經有107座的野賣場嘛那還有354萬立方空間我想要釐清一下因為立方空間的公式是什麼長城因為我們就學過長城寬城高啊立方空間就是一米一米那它其實大概乘以0.7大概就是多少噸的概念"},{"start":529.198,"end":555.474,"text":"你的意思是說這個是立方公尺嗎?公尺,我們現在有公尺,因為垃圾它的比重好,所以空間是還要乘上比重的意思?對對對,如果量,量來說的話那因為這個之前在其他地方還沒有看過那他們足夠容納72萬噸的裸露的垃圾嗎?可以那這些裸露堆置的垃圾有沒有可能說交由掩埋場來做衛生掩埋?"},{"start":558.071,"end":580.672,"text":"現在就是現在就是現在就是交給他們做衛生掩埋對好就是直接包起來打包打包然後就埋進去打包之後就沒有埋或是說直接他的這個這個垃圾直接用附土埋掉"},{"start":582.117,"end":589.771,"text":"不是埋進去,是把它蓋起來?蓋起來,今天蓋起來。喔,那沒工啦。對,對,對。一個是土,一個是電管,埋起來看不見。對。好。"},{"start":591.923,"end":617.245,"text":"好那到底這樣埋可能在法規上吼那個還是還是要看一下吼那目前49座的這個裸露裸露的場地吼他們對於這個地方的影響吼是難道都是一樣的嗎然後有沒有特別復雜困難處理的地的這些場址那你們環境部有沒有就是應對的措施啊然後希望什麼時候讓49座的這個裸露場址吼全部東東消失"},{"start":618.454,"end":646.097,"text":"我希望三年內可以解決這個問題啦但是這個只是說我必須說這是暫時自己啦所以三年內還是就是應該是在部長您的任內嗎我希望我可以做到那個時候那嚴署長是會在您的任內嗎完成你應該會待得比部長還久吧你是事務官對不對我跟他一起退休我們一定會完成完成做完再走吧"},{"start":647.202,"end":672.672,"text":"我會努力我會努力我們也會跟總統講一下做完再走我會努力包委員這個齁要處理這個是專案跟地方啦所以我們的確一個縣市一個縣市跟環保局一起來去抓啦剛剛我就一直聽到嚴署長講說是地方政府管的然後旁邊那個還點頭這樣子啊趕快把責任攬到我們這邊來我們都通力合作啦因為我都是找縣市首長跟環保局來一起"},{"start":672.932,"end":690.165,"text":"台灣在你們任內台灣還會不會有新的新增加的垃圾裸露的場域 不會 不會吼 不會 嚴署長會不會在你的任內 不會 那你會做多久 全國人多給我們指導"},{"start":691.055,"end":710.034,"text":"好,你不要說不會,啊只有半年你就沒在這裡,這樣不行?不會啦不會啦好,那如果不會增加,我們比較關心說那奇怪過去為什麼有這麼多裸露的場址那你們升格之後到底法令有什麼樣有效的法令跟這個政策工具來禁止全部把它覆土蓋起來"},{"start":711.367,"end":733.536,"text":"其實我也要感謝大家社會的這個壓力我是覺得這個都是一個正面的循環那我們也認真的去面對這個事情所以我就覺得這個法令從源頭的減量整個很好的循環的體系的建立這才是必要的我必須作為這個我們我們自己我如果我可以解決我就解決這個都要靠地方中央地方一起合作"},{"start":734.176,"end":761.579,"text":"我現在因為我那個召委站起來我有點緊張因為我第一次遇到他擔任召委然後我質詢這樣子我們通常那個我自己當召委的時候我都會再多給一點時間好謝謝然後我快問完了我快問完了那我們現有的這個裸露場地你們投入很多的監控設備那甚至用了這個AI的技術那好像這個AI技術這個監控好像在監控我們的防空飛彈一樣喔那"},{"start":763.22,"end":783.267,"text":"我要請教說你垃圾裸露了那因為不會因為這些監控然後就不裸露那也不會因為監控然後這些這些就消失不見了所以我們監控的意義在哪裡是因為怕人家偷盜還是說還怕火災環境風險"},{"start":784.867,"end":801.593,"text":"報告委員這個掌握垃圾量我們未來齁會把這個每一個這個每一個縣市每一個點全部都公開讓大家知道他他處理的多少所以你們這樣就有能力管理了希望希望就是說這個不然的話我數據都是半年才一次好我們就不要再推到地方啦那因為"},{"start":803.473,"end":824.94,"text":"一定要看一下部長英姿煥發的姿勢你去視察了各地方的垃圾處理場還有補助焚化爐的維修跟興建那我們也深刻感覺到就是說這個環境部對比過去的環保署好像真的對於這個焚化爐的政策已經有所不同了"},{"start":825.62,"end":846.555,"text":"所以過去我也曾經質詢那希望說環保署可以正面看待焚化爐設施進步性跟這個邊際效應的問題那我想我很肯定部長有這樣新的思維那鼓勵說用焚化爐來解決垃圾的問題那但是雖然我們台灣沒有因為燒紙的話就垃圾變得比較少但是說環境部至少我們現在應該要努力啦"},{"start":846.715,"end":862.432,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":862.782,"end":862.802,"text":"謝謝部長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:12:52 - 12:27:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155182","gazette":{"lineno":1000,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時13分）好，謝謝主席，麻煩請一下彭部長。"],["主席：彭部長請。"],["陳委員瑩：等一下有提到的單位，今天就自己主動上來。"],["彭部長啓明：好。委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。我想先看一下，剛剛劉委員關心了這個報告，交出來你們都要檢查，所以要嚴謹。我先請教，你們報告的第一頁，前言的部分倒數第二行有特別提到，裸露暫置垃圾之掩埋場共53場，我想請教哪些是在現有107座掩埋場裡面，哪些是在堆置場？"],["彭部長啓明：全部都是，全部都是我們107座裡面。"],["陳委員瑩：全部都在107座裡面？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以它全部都是合法的，暫時裸露的都是合法的？"],["彭部長啓明：都是合法的，對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你這個是什麼東西？"],["彭部長啓明：這個也都合法的。"],["陳委員瑩：這個是合法的？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，堆成這樣。那我們再繼續看，你們也可以再回去看一下你們的函釋。首先我關心一下，112年底有53座垃圾裸埋場，在八個月的時間內你們減少至49座，但我想請教減少的原因是推動或者是執行什麼樣的措施，可以在短短的八個月的時間裡面，減少4座裸露堆置的狀態？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個大概第一個是覆土，第二個是打包，用這兩個方式就不要讓它露天裸露。"],["陳委員瑩：好，請問一下你們覆土主要的功能是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個，它不是屬於永久的就把它埋掉了，因為未來如果量能夠的話，或是有SRF好的技術的話，它還是可以拿來做分類，所以等於是暫時把它掩埋覆土。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們就是在視覺上先處理。"],["彭部長啓明：對，先初步處理。"],["陳委員瑩：這個裸露堆置不是只有環境衛生不佳，會引起附近民眾的反感，他們一定很不滿，因為這個包括了惡臭、地下水污染、蚊蟲孳生，還有清運的交通、時間的這些問題。有時候也要伴隨需要，提供地方補償回饋金等等的問題。我不知道你們這裡減少的4座是哪4座？剛剛我講的那些問題都已經解決了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實第一個如果要掩埋覆土，它的污水處理一定要做到完全澈底，都有一定的規範。掩埋覆土之後，因為它很厚，所以它基本上就不會有這種惡臭的情況產生，所以這個……"],["陳委員瑩：覆土很厚就不會有惡臭產生。"],["彭部長啓明：對啊！還要把它再包起來，所以基本上就很像我們現在有時候到內湖那個焚化廠的旁邊有一座山，那個其實裡面也都是垃圾。"],["陳委員瑩：所以我剛剛提的惡臭、地下水、蚊蟲孳生，還有清運這些統統都沒有問題？"],["彭部長啓明：這些都要做，這個都是標準的掩埋場……"],["陳委員瑩：你們現在覆土之後都沒有這些問題？"],["彭部長啓明：要覆土之前都要先把它蓋住……"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！你就跟我說，現在完全都沒有這些問題就好了，因為你都做好了。"],["彭部長啓明：就是那4座，4座掩埋場。"],["陳委員瑩：就是都沒有問題了嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：就是覆土起來就都沒有問題了。"],["彭部長啓明：暫時沒有問題啦！"],["陳委員瑩：暫時，好。你剛剛說垃圾都會焚燒，這之後會去焚燒，還是它就是變成……因為你們暫時堆置，雖然是暫時的，但是我不知道你們這個數學怎麼算，因為你如果說減少了堆置場，那等於多了掩埋場的意思啊！"],["彭部長啓明：這個都是在掩埋場裡面啦！"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！因為你就覆蓋了，覆蓋不就埋起來了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：就是另類的掩埋場。"],["彭部長啓明：它其實本來就是掩埋場。"],["陳委員瑩：我講的是堆置的部分。"],["彭部長啓明：對，它堆置有一個是露天裸露堆在那個地方，但是我們把它覆土起來，它也不會造成環境景觀上的危害。未來它跟那個最終處置的這種，例如說很多的垃圾山，這樣處理是不一樣的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係。因為時間的關係，我們先往下討論。我們看一下今年9月4號出刊的天下雜誌第102頁，我們環管署的顏署長有特別講，不裸露就是妥善處理，你有特別講，說這個是國際間接受的處理方式。本席想要請教，請問你講的這個國際間包含了哪些國家？"],["顏署長旭明：我們一般的垃圾處理有兩大主流，一個是焚化，一個是掩埋。當然還有其他的，例如說氣化等等……"],["陳委員瑩：我的問題沒有很複雜，我只問有哪些國家有接受這樣的方式？"],["顏署長旭明：譬如說，美國、澳洲目前都還是屬於掩埋。"],["陳委員瑩：還有呢？"],["顏署長旭明：主要是大國啦！"],["陳委員瑩：大國，好，哪些先進的國家？你剛剛除了講澳洲，還有哪些先進的大國有這樣處理？"],["顏署長旭明：是，應該連日本也有掩埋。"],["陳委員瑩：你講到大國，德國算大國吧？"],["彭部長啓明：有，德國也有。"],["陳委員瑩：德國也這樣子處理？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我有去看過。"],["陳委員瑩：好，主要是因為我查了一下德國的部分，他們在2005年6月的時候，開始不允許未經處理的廢棄物進入掩埋場。我國是根據公有廢棄物掩埋管理規範，也就是從2007年1月1號開始我們也跟進。大家可以看一下簡報，所以這個是國際的做法，還是國際的笑話？還是說這個有公然違法的問題？因為我們有查詢到德國在2005年6月開始，不允許未經處理的廢棄物進入掩埋場。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我其實也到德國去看，例如說他們任何的東西燃燒，基本上如果燃燒最好是經過有效率的分類啦！如果有效率的分類……"],["陳委員瑩：我想我們查詢到的資料是這樣啦！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你說國際間都接受，我就不太清楚，因為我們看到的文獻資料是這個樣子，就提供給你們參考。部長，我要請教的是，垃圾裸露堆置這個場地選址，是地方政府決定還是環境部？要不要事先經過環境影響評估？"],["彭部長啓明：要，署長要不要回答一下。"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，目前應該是說，在現有的合法掩埋場裡面，它進去應該覆土或打包，但是它沒有做這件事情，所以我們要求它依照標準的掩埋或處理的方式處理。"],["陳委員瑩：所以就是地方政府的問題嘛！你的意思是這樣？"],["顏署長旭明：地方政府管理的掩埋場，垃圾也是地方政府的，我們督導的……"],["陳委員瑩：對啦，可是地方政府誰管？"],["顏署長旭明：我們督導的部分就是要求……"],["陳委員瑩：你們督導啊！那你們是誰管、誰監督？就是我們監督啊！所以大家都有責任嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["陳委員瑩：我也沒有說……當然我不會說是地方政府的責任嘛！我現在說連我都有責任，我都講進去，我就不會講地方政府啊！好啦！我這樣講，給你參考，不要講地方政府好嗎？你們也有責任。","目前已經有107座掩埋場，還有354萬立方空間，我想要釐清一下，立方空間的公式是什麼？我們都學過長乘寬乘高，那立方空間呢？"],["彭部長啓明：就是1米。其實它乘以0.7大概就是多少噸的概念。"],["陳委員瑩：你的意思是說，這個是立方公尺嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：公尺。我們現在用公尺，因為垃圾的比重……"],["陳委員瑩：好，所以「空間」是還要乘上比重的意思？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對，如果以量來說的話。"],["陳委員瑩：OK，因為這個之前在其他地方沒有看過，它們足夠容納72萬噸裸露的垃圾嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那這些裸露堆置的垃圾有沒有可能交由掩埋場來做衛生掩埋？"],["彭部長啓明：現在就是。"],["陳委員瑩：現在就是交給他們做衛生掩埋？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，就是直接包起來？"],["彭部長啓明：打包處理。"],["陳委員瑩：然後就埋進去？"],["彭部長啓明：打包之後就沒有埋，或是這個垃圾直接覆土埋掉。"],["陳委員瑩：好，不是埋進去，而是把它蓋起來？"],["彭部長啓明：直接蓋起來。"],["陳委員瑩：喔，那不一樣啦！"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["陳委員瑩：一個在地底下，一個在地面上。埋起來，看不見！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那到底這樣埋……可能在法規上還是要看一下。","目前49座裸露場地對於地方的影響難道都是一樣的嗎？有沒有特別複雜、處理困難的場址？你們環境部有沒有應對的措施？希望什麼時候讓這49座的裸露場址全部統統消失？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們希望3年內可以解決這個問題，但我必須說這是暫時之計。"],["陳委員瑩：3年內？3年內應該還在部長任內嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我希望我可以做到那個時候。"],["陳委員瑩：顏署長，會在您任內完成嗎？你應該會待得比部長還久吧？"],["顏署長旭明：希望。"],["陳委員瑩：你是事務官，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：我跟他一起退休，對，我們一定會完成。"],["陳委員瑩：做完再走吧！"],["彭部長啓明：我會努力。"],["陳委員瑩：我們也會跟總統講一下，做完再走。"],["彭部長啓明：我會努力。報告委員，處理這個是要中央跟地方合作啦！所以我們的確一個縣市、一個縣市，跟環保局一起來「咒誓」啦！"],["陳委員瑩：對啦，我是很擔心，因為剛剛我就一直聽到顏署長說這是地方政府管的，然後旁邊那個還點頭這樣子啊，所以我趕快把責任攬到我們這邊來。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們都是通力合作啦！所以我都是找縣市首長跟環保局長一起……"],["陳委員瑩：好，重點是在你們任內，臺灣還會不會有新增加的垃圾裸露場域？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。"],["陳委員瑩：不會齁？","顏署長，會不會？在你的任內？"],["顏署長旭明：不會。"],["陳委員瑩：那你會做多久？"],["顏署長旭明：請委員多給我們指導。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你不要說「不會」，結果半年你就不在這裡了，這樣不行！"],["彭部長啓明：不會啦、不會啦！"],["陳委員瑩：好，如果不會增加，我們比較關心過去為什麼會有這麼多裸露的場址，你們升格之後到底有什麼有效的法令和政策工具來禁止，全部把它覆土、蓋起來？"],["彭部長啓明：其實我要感謝社會有這個壓力，我是覺得這都是一個正面的循環，我們也認真地去面對這個事情，所以我是覺得這個法令，從源頭的減量、整個很好的循環體系的建立，這才是必要的。我必須說，委員，如果我可以解決，我就解決，這個都要靠中央、地方一起合作。"],["陳委員瑩：因為召委站起來，我有一點緊張，因為我第一次遇到他擔任召委，然後我質詢。我自己當召委的時候，通常都會再多給一點時間。謝謝。"],["主席：已經給很久了。"],["陳委員瑩：我快問完了、我快問完了。","針對現有的裸露場地，你們投入很多監控設備，甚至用了AI的技術，AI技術的監控好像在監控我們的防空飛彈一樣。我要請教的是，垃圾裸露了，並不會因為這些監控就不裸露，也不會因為監控就消失不見，所以我們監控的意義在哪裡？是因為怕人家偷倒，還是怕火災等環境風險？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這是為了掌握垃圾量，我們未來會把每個縣市、每個點全部都公開，讓大家知道它處理了多少。"],["陳委員瑩：好，所以你們這樣就有能力管理了？"],["彭部長啓明：希望、希望。不然的話，我們數據都是半年來一次。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我們就不要再推到地方了。大家一定要看一下部長英姿煥發地去視察各地方的垃圾處理場，還有補助焚化爐的維修跟興建。我們也深刻感覺到，對比過去的環保署，環境部對於焚化爐的政策好像真的已經有所不同了。過去我也曾經質詢環保署，希望可以正面看待焚化爐設施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定驗執行前本席第一次看到有沒有受刑能力的欠缺"},{"start":356.65,"end":356.75,"text":"請說明一下"},{"start":381.169,"end":386.684,"text":"跟委員報告那大法官的這個精神能力這部分我想"},{"start":390.586,"end":412.865,"text":"將來我們一定會在各個案的審判中那依照那個訴訟法部分跟那個醫療單位現在精神鑑定剛剛在這裡吵了這麼久就沒有人要幫你鑑定嘛我想跟委員報告啦那我們會先關於機制包含說如果鑑定了這些報酬那個是不是齁這15位大法官先做精神鑑定啦"},{"start":414.62,"end":415.401,"text":"現在說啊各級法院啊"},{"start":445.526,"end":469.019,"text":"要採一致決地院、高院三位法官要一致決最高法院五位法官要一致決這一直接侵犯到法院的組織法105條平一的時候本來就是多數決現在要一致決"},{"start":474.205,"end":497.599,"text":"請問一下現在這37位死刑犯中有哪一位在審判過程中不是一致決的有沒有跟委員報告因為大法官是說要證明說那當時是一致決那我們現在要調這一些的券包含什麼時候可以查清楚我們會盡快盡快是什麼時候"},{"start":500.721,"end":519.136,"text":"在這裡在國會講話要清楚嘛什麼叫儘快希望在兩個月之內兩個月之內37個人你要掉兩個月這什麼行政效率啊因為這個保存卷宗保存因為有的都非常的久那我們卷宗保存是10年目前的規定是10年這是在你任期內耶9月20號做的解釋判決你們是不是早就應該啟動了"},{"start":529.202,"end":535.123,"text":"那本期再請教一下那如果未來檢察總長全部提出非常上述總長今天有沒有來主席總長應該要來嘛"},{"start":557.523,"end":584.873,"text":"這37位他要來做說明啊好 再來如果這37位提起檢察總長提起非常上訴之後這37位如果都改判了無期徒刑都改判了無期徒刑沒有一位法官願意去跟司法院對抗好"},{"start":586.277,"end":607.608,"text":"改判無期徒刑就如同強盜強奸殺人而且是隨機最可惡是隨機還可以改判無期徒刑請問一下秘書長如果改判無期徒刑這37位有哪幾位已經符合可以立刻假釋"},{"start":610.765,"end":615.627,"text":"跟委員報告部長也來請明確回答那個假釋是法務部的這個指導不不不來來來假釋要經過你們嘛來來來部長來"},{"start":630.339,"end":655.352,"text":"目前這37都在收容中那我們是反對這些收容的期間若有改判的話我們是不認為我們是反對記錄那個摺底刑期也記錄假釋的門檻期間那我們是反對的部長你不要在這裡搞政治嘛什麼你反對不反對你要依法執行什麼叫反對你要依法什麼叫反對"},{"start":656.572,"end":675.237,"text":"所以我們要修那個建立行刑法148條的那你現在就還沒有修法啊那沒有修法的話我們照這個那你現在修法可以溯及既往嗎我們是剛才有提到說我們這個修法的話可以溯及既往這個是屬於那個現在修法都可以溯及既往越講越離譜了你要鬧到國際聯合國人權委員會舉報違反兩公約什麼都來啦"},{"start":686.018,"end":690.942,"text":"你們弄了一個破網越補越大洞法律怎麼可以收集記網越講越亂來胡說八道北京現在問你的不是你願不願意肯不肯的問題北京現在問你的是依法這37位依他犯刑時候的法律如果趕他無期徒刑"},{"start":711.26,"end":718.015,"text":"有多少位可以申請假釋?一線刑法的話 什麼時候資料可以查出來?一線刑法的話因為"},{"start":719.611,"end":747.871,"text":"假釋必須要執行的執行才才可以那現在現在是收容是不能夠折抵假釋的就是那個不能折抵那個刑期無期徒刑的刑期所以目前的話我們認為這部分齁這部分我們認為沒有折抵的可能你說現在收容不算刑期收容不算啊收押算不算收押是算收容不算收押算收容不算所以現在要重新計算就是了"},{"start":749.093,"end":750.975,"text":"那請問一下,重大的犯罪,你們是牽涉收押嘛,對不對?"},{"start":767.056,"end":795.657,"text":"當時"},{"start":797.489,"end":816.293,"text":"最早的犯刑無期徒刑最早無期徒刑民國80幾年無期徒刑多少年可以假釋10年10年所以本席在問你嘛你不要跟我繞圈子嘛明確回答本席的問題把所有的資料查清楚部長所有資料查清楚這37位"},{"start":824.679,"end":826.4,"text":"秘書長既然"},{"start":854.223,"end":881.652,"text":"這個大法官可以造法本來憲法78條是在我們法律的判決有競合過程有灰暗不明有解釋不清定定不明的時候由憲法法庭來做解釋判決現在呢法律定得清清楚楚他結果來造法"},{"start":882.606,"end":909.591,"text":"玩法弄法而且要求要一致決直接違反立法院所通過的明確的法律而且我們國家也執行這麼久平一九十多數決他現在改成要一致決所以院長﹖那個秘書長請教一下所以是不是憲法法庭啊要求別人啊要一致決"},{"start":911.079,"end":920.084,"text":"憲法法庭未來15位大法官是不是應該要15位依法定員而15位一致決才能做解釋?那個發委員那憲法法庭只是針對這個死刑的部分說要一致決並沒有說其他情要一致決那憲法法庭似乎也沒有說這個死刑就是刑法裡最嚴重之刑嘛"},{"start":942.232,"end":968.531,"text":"維護這個社會安全最重要的防線嘛誰家沒有婦孺誰家沒有孩子你要讓我們的孩子面對這樣的一個這麼恐怖的一個社會嗎秘書長雖然工作上可能會調整但是你絕對是司法界大家庭裡面非常重要的一員"},{"start":969.807,"end":997.075,"text":"我們現在都在面對啊9月20號啊中華民國司法最淪喪的一天就是大法官的15位無恥無能大法官所做出這樣的一個毀憲亂政的一個決議所以本席在這裡啊認為啊既然是這樣的大法官以後更應該依照法定原額啊來做一致決啊才能夠啊"},{"start":998.397,"end":1014.611,"text":"確保未來法律啊不會被嚴重的扭曲捍衛全國國人的這樣的一個安全我們這個國家為什麼越打越詐為什麼這麼多虛偽這麼多的假面從這15位大法官我們就看到這就是他們的真面目不敢說違憲"},{"start":1026.294,"end":1039.606,"text":"但是實質就是廢除死刑而且這麼多的不確定性我們又各級法官又如何審判中華民國的悲歌啊就出到這15位無恥無臉的大法官"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:09:49 - 12:27:12","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155181","gazette":{"lineno":840,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（12時10分）主席，請代理秘書長。"],["主席：請代理秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：秘書長辛苦一下。姑不論你是不是司法院的秘書長，你身為司法界的一員，今天就應該對大法官所做出的解釋造成中華民國整個司法體制的嚴重、重大破壞，指出我們該如何面對、如何修復。我想司法一直都是社會秩序的最後一道維護防線，可以說是所謂皇后的貞操，但是今天這道防線已經導致中華民國臺灣人心惶惶，社會秩序要如何維護啊？荒腔走板的大法官讓全民陷入空前的危機當中。","從9月20日到現在，所謂的實質廢死設了8道最嚴格的關卡，本席請教幾個比較簡單的問題。秘書長，你都已經擔任到司法院秘書長了，當然不是法界的菜鳥，那本席請教一下，何謂個案犯罪情節最嚴重、最重大之罪？說明一下。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然大法官的憲判字理由有例示一些情形，特別提到未必故意的殺人不包括，而是要直接、概括或擇一故意。另外也有講一些情形，包含無差別──針對無差別，他也有講一些情況。至於其他情形，當然要由個案法官、承審合議庭斟酌刑法第五十七條中的犯罪動機、目的、手段這些情形，去做個案的綜合判斷。實務上，很多法官用不確定──我們叫不確定的概念，關於不確定的概念，比如說常常有法律提到「必要時」，而「必要時」其實也都是看個案，法官要斟酌情形。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以以後就百花齊放？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是看個案……"],["傅委員崐萁：各人唱各人的調？因為針對大法官的解釋，秘書長說了半天，就是一句話：看個案不確定性。請問，既然有不確定性，法院審理當中要以什麼為主要依歸？什麼叫「情節最重大之罪」？法官要如何適從？假設某案件正在審理，該案件夠粗暴、夠殘忍，要是這時候社會上又出了一件更殘忍的案件，那這一件是不是就已經不夠殘忍、就已經不是最重大之罪？所以本席實在看不懂也聽不懂，什麼叫做「最重大之罪」？顯而易見的就是現在這件女教師被強盜、強姦、殺人，有人類史以來，強盜、強姦、殺人本來就罪無可赦，現在卻多了一條，已經判了5個死刑，結果現在法官不跟當朝對抗，不希望跟司法院憲法法庭對抗，所以說了一個理由：他是隨機，喔！隨機！隨機比起故意，犯罪程度會比較輕嗎？隨機會比較輕嗎？隨機是更可怕的欸！他隨時會爆發、隨時想怎麼樣就怎麼樣，不需要任何預謀，這是更可怕的！但是卻因為大法官這麼荒謬的解釋，五度判死的人現在改判無期徒刑。大家都揣摩上意嘛！何必去跟憲法法庭對抗？何必跟司法院對抗？未來恐怕官位不保、升不上去啊！上行下效！連秘書長都講不出來，人民要怎麼辦？人民要怎麼辦？","本席再請教，現在對於判死刑定讞的人還要重新回溯、再考慮他犯罪時的心智、精神是不是有問題，在審判中他的精神、他的人格是不是有問題，最荒謬的是在定讞後執行前，本席第一次看到，還要認定有沒有受刑能力的欠缺，能不能接受執行，要看他受刑能力是否有欠缺，連這樣都可以當作理由！那每一個死刑犯都可以主張「我現在沒有能力接受」，就不能執行了。請說明一下。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，針對大法官解釋中關於精神能力這部分，將來我們一定會在個案審判中依照訴訟法跟醫療單位……"],["傅委員崐萁：針對精神鑑定，剛剛在這裡吵了這麼久，就是因為沒有人要幫你鑑定嘛！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們會先規劃機制，包含如果鑑定的報酬……"],["傅委員崐萁：是不是針對這15位大法官先做精神鑑定啦！確認他們的人格是不是有殘缺、是否健全、有沒有精障，然後再把一個standard排出來，否則沒有明確的標準嘛！秘書長，本席是以很嚴肅的心情在跟你探討這個問題。","再過來，現在說各級法院要採一致決，也就是地院、高院三位法官要一致決，最高法院五位法官要一致決，這直接侵犯到法院組織法第一百零五條，評議的時候本來就是多數決，現在要一致決，請問一下，這37位死刑犯中有哪一位在審判過程中不是一致決的？有沒有？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，大法官是說要證明當時是一致決，那我們現在要調這些卷，包含評議簿……"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼時候可以查清楚？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們會儘快，最高法院……"],["傅委員崐萁：「儘快」是什麼時候嘛？在這裡、在國會講話要清楚嘛！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼叫「儘快」？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：希望在兩個月之內能夠……"],["傅委員崐萁：兩個月之內？37個人，你要調兩個月？這是什麼行政效率啊？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是因為卷宗保存，有的卷宗都非常久了，根據目前的規定，卷宗的保存時間是10年，所以超過10年的部分……"],["傅委員崐萁：秘書長，這是在你的任期內欸！是9月20日做成的解釋判決欸！你不是早就應該啟動了？這37位有沒有經過一致決？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：如果卷宗在，不，是評議簿在……"],["傅委員崐萁：那卷宗不在，看著辦就是了？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：如果評議簿不在，因為超過保存期限，可能就要以其他方式去做調查。"],["傅委員崐萁：那本席再請教一下，如果未來檢察總長全部提出非常上訴，總長今天有沒有來？主席，總長應該要來嘛！針對這37位，他要來說明啊！","再來，如果檢察總長提起非常上訴之後，這37位都改判了無期徒刑，沒有一位法官願意跟司法院對抗，都改判無期徒刑，就如強盜、強姦、殺人，而且是隨機，最可惡的就是隨機，還可以改判無期徒刑，請問一下秘書長，如果改判無期徒刑，這37位中有哪幾位已經符合條件可以立刻假釋？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，那……"],["傅委員崐萁：部長也來。請明確回答。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：那個假釋是法務部的職掌。"],["傅委員崐萁：不，不，不，假釋要經過你們嘛。部長來。"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前這37人都在收容中，我們是反對，在收容期間如果又改判的話，我們是不認為、我們是反對計入折抵刑期，也計入假釋的門檻期間，那我們是反對的。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，你不要在這裡搞政治嘛！什麼你反對不反對，你要依法執行，什麼叫反對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我們現在……"],["傅委員崐萁：你要依法！什麼叫反對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們要修監獄行刑法第一百四十八條的……"],["傅委員崐萁：可是你現在就還沒有修法啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有修法的話，我們照這個……"],["傅委員崐萁：你現在修法可以溯及既往嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們剛才有提到，這個修法可以溯及既往，這個是屬於……"],["傅委員崐萁：現在修法都可以溯及既往？越講越離譜了！你要鬧到國際聯合國人權委員會去嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我跟委員報告，這個是……"],["傅委員崐萁：違反兩公約什麼都來了！你們弄了一個破網，越補越大洞，法律怎麼可以溯及既往？越講越亂來，胡說八道！本席現在問你的不是你願不願意、肯不肯的問題，本席現在問你的是依法這37位依他犯行時候的法律，如果改判無期徒刑，有多少已經可以申請假釋？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依現行法的話……"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼時候資料可以查出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依現行法的話，因為假釋必須要執刑才可以，現在是收容，所以不能夠折抵假釋的，就是不能折抵無期徒刑的刑期，所以目前我們認為這部分沒有折抵的可能。"],["傅委員崐萁：你說現在收容不算刑期？"],["鄭部長銘謙：收容不算啊！"],["傅委員崐萁：收押算不算？"],["鄭部長銘謙：收押是算，收容不算。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以現在要重新計算就是了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：收押是算的，收押當然是可以折抵嘛，依現行法的話，收容不算，因為現在是收容期間，是不能夠折抵的。"],["傅委員崐萁：請問一下，重大的犯罪你們先是收押，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在是收容中。"],["傅委員崐萁：一開始先是收押，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，收押。"],["傅委員崐萁：收押之後，因為犯行重大、兇殘，所以一開始是收押嘛，對不對？那現在收押了多久了？每一位收押多久了？他經過歷審的審判過程中都是收押的狀態。"],["鄭部長銘謙：最久的是19年。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，當時最早的犯刑無期徒刑，最早的無期徒刑是民國八十幾年，無期徒刑多少年可以假釋？"],["鄭部長銘謙：10年。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在問你，你不要跟我繞圈子嘛！明確回答本席的問題，把所有的資料查清楚。部長，這37位從抓到人、收押、起訴到審判所有過程的所有資料、收押期間多久，把這個資料送到本委員會來，也送給本席一份，部長清楚嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：清楚。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，請回。","秘書長，既然大法官可以造法，本來憲法第七十八條是在法律判決有競合過程、有晦暗不明、有解釋不清、訂定不明的時候，由憲法法庭來做解釋判決，現在法律訂得清清楚楚，結果他們來造法！玩法！弄法！而且要求要一致決，直接違反立法院所通過的明確的法律，而且我們國家已經執行了這麼久，評議就是多數決，他們現在改成要一致決，所以請教秘書長，是不是憲法法庭要求別人要一致決，憲法法庭未來15位大法官，是不是應該要依法定員額15位一致決才能做解釋？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：報告委員，憲法法庭只是針對這個死刑的部分說要一致決，並沒有說其他刑要一致決，憲法法庭似乎也沒有說這個……"],["傅委員崐萁：死刑就是刑法裡最嚴重之刑，維護社會安全最重要的防線嘛！誰家沒有婦孺？誰家沒有孩子？你要讓我們的孩子面對這麼恐怖的一個社會嗎？秘書長，雖然工作上可能會調整，但是你絕對是司法界大家庭裡非常重要的一員，我們現在都在面對9月20號中華民國司法最淪喪的一天，就是15位無恥、無能的大法官所做出的這樣一個毀憲亂政的決議。所以，本席在這裡認為，既然是這樣的大法官，以後更應該依照法定員額來做一致決，才能夠確保未來法律不會被嚴重的扭曲，以捍衛全國國人的安全。我們這個國家為什麼越打越詐？為什麼這麼多虛偽？這麼多的假面？從這15位大法官我們就看到，這就是他們的真面目，不敢說違憲，但是實質就是廢除死刑，而且這麼多的不確定性，要讓各級法官如何審判？中華民國的悲歌就出自這15位無恥、無廉的大法官！"],["主席：下一位請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:09:52","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:26:53+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Cl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接簽約的美國政府是根據他的這個跟廠商所取得的報價資料保定保定保定我是非常誠懇針對問題佣金的問題當然也不要去使這個天經地義美國本來就有這個制度只是沒有這個制度"},{"start":263.982,"end":284.525,"text":"沒有這個制度美國沒有這個制度美國沒有這樣的軍售方面沒有這個制度至於委員講的那個182億可能是另外一個事情就是有關那個愛國者未來的重建策案那這個剛剛已經都回答過了就是說他因為這個導引的相關斷件他到期了以後他要逐步更換"},{"start":285.206,"end":311.353,"text":"所以這個愛國者飛彈的重建策案呢就要編的這個預算是要來做更換這個導引等相關的斷件那這個部分呢是也後來文件補齊之後也報告立法院是做一個新建的一個部長你這個已經跟委員解釋過我了解了我了解我現在問你的花生這個問題"},{"start":313.033,"end":335.821,"text":"是否跟整個制度有問題我要問你這個問題有沒有發現到是制度的一個問題要不要改變制度的問題您說改變對這整個包括採購包括整個那個和審這整整包括什麼支付的經費的等等是不是這裡有出問題"},{"start":337.508,"end":360.99,"text":"軍售的這個部分的話我們必須跟美方在密切的這個溝通來如何加強這個有關於如果說這是一個詐欺的這個案件的話那因為經過這個事件之後我們當然要跟美方做一個溝通協調了解是在哪一個環節上面然後因為這美方主動集合察覺了嗎是吧所以美方"},{"start":361.63,"end":388.17,"text":"主動集合察覺的這個點在什麼地方,那我們等這個調查成功告一段落後,我們會...所以啊,那個部長,所以我在這裡啊,以我個人之前見,基本上這整個就是我們在經過過程當中,這裡面的機制問題要去改進跟加強,改進跟加強,所以提供給部長,你去做參考,"},{"start":389.551,"end":416.229,"text":"這個有沒有必要重新去研擬一下在這個整個機合制度是否出問題才會產生這些種種的猜疑跟矛盾所以本席是提供給部長去做參考你仔細因為你仔細去參考一下這個是不是在這個制度去吃問題那另外一個我要用簡短的時間再來請教部長"},{"start":417.506,"end":431.962,"text":"也就是明年的我們的阿兵哥的額度是減少的尤其我比較在乎的也就是離島跟外島的兵力部長為什麼要減少"},{"start":434.059,"end":455.078,"text":"跟委員報告沒有減少這個有關相關的預算的顏額那個我們事實上如果說因為我們現在已經開始實施一年期的一五一了所以如果你將志願役的顏額跟一五一的顏額加起來的話外導的這個顏額是增加的並不是減少"},{"start":456.104,"end":464.113,"text":"我這裡的數據,你們給我的數據,這個顏額是離島減少,所以這個部分我特別提供給部長,為什麼會減少,離島減少主要的原因,這個當然啦,因為"},{"start":476.186,"end":478.509,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":493.866,"end":517.623,"text":"跟委員報告,因為我們預算顏額跟這個限顏,過去預算顏額拉了比較高一點,所以有些人員的維持費並沒有用掉,那我這一次是希望他們能夠務實的編列,就根據限顏數來做一個比較務實的編列,所以大家會以為說因為預算顏額的減少,而好像這個編制人數或者限顏減少,但事實上實際的狀況應該是我們預算顏額過去可能"},{"start":520.545,"end":535.858,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、"},{"start":542.659,"end":558.52,"text":"我們牽涉到我們的軍事戰力的問題沒有人就沒有戰力所以我特別要提醒部長你怎麼樣去調配我想我們都尊重但是我們發現這個問題再度提供給部長去做參考"},{"start":559.201,"end":575.385,"text":"因為你需要保護中華民國的所以我們怕你一時的散失然後撕掉離島撕掉外島這是划不來的好不好所以沒有我想謝謝委員指教我們應該沒有大減這個外離島的這個緣額的問題存在我們只是將"},{"start":581.846,"end":584.429,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:17:01 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:438.82,"text":"我們大概可以獲得多少對不對我剛才聽你在回答其他委員講的是我們軍售然後呢我們都是跟美國政府好像你沒有辦法任何作為他賣你貴的你就吃了怎麼樣大家都知道台灣買的都是幾乎全世界最貴的然後你就是一句話國防部長就一句話因為對的是美國政府所以言下之意就是我們毫無談判籌碼是這樣子嗎"},{"start":441.245,"end":464.008,"text":"我想跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說美國政府本身也向這些公司購買武器所以美國有相當嚴謹的這個價格分析的制度也有相當嚴謹的集合制度所以如果說雷神把我們當盤子那如果你用同樣的道理那美國政府也不可能容許雷神把它當盤子我想這是第一點第二點"},{"start":465.209,"end":466.59,"text":"美國還沒有告訴我們最後的這個可以結案的時間點。"},{"start":495.037,"end":519.393,"text":"另外一個在這裡面的就是他高報的這裡面有個案子就是愛國者飛彈1792億後來結一款182億美國人不給我們然後後來就叫我們再追加買他的愛國者飛彈這個事情你剛才已經講了這是違反相關的程序你們的防空飛彈指揮部"},{"start":522.449,"end":526.252,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":543.624,"end":547.885,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":572.452,"end":597.99,"text":"好,這個最後還是一句話了齁你剛才就一推奧巴伊胡說因為是軍售不是商售面對的是美國政府美國政府就相信他所以我們就沒有任何的智慧的餘地大家都覺得說買貴了買貴了因為軍售政府對政府你一點批量都沒有變這個樣子我沒有感覺國防部可以做一點事情嗎可以買便宜一點的嗎"},{"start":599.391,"end":620.987,"text":"我想美國國防部本身也都是在跟這些軍工產業在做這個……是啊,你的言下之意就是相信美國國防部嘛,就變這樣而已啊。你就沒有角色啦。我們面對的是國防部、美國的政府。美國政府要對我們負完全的責任。包括會計、集合的責任。阿你跟美國政府有沒有討價、討價還價的空間嗎?我就問你這一點吧。"},{"start":624.127,"end":635.03,"text":"我們剛剛已經講過了如果說就國內外的這個歷史採購的這個價格那如果說有偏離的一個部分的話我們跟美國會進行交涉"},{"start":636.607,"end":637.928,"text":"我們希望能夠在今年的第4季能夠到"},{"start":662.694,"end":662.814,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:05:22 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check過嗎?"},{"start":29.026,"end":29.967,"text":"目前全台裸露暫置垃圾掩埋場共53場"},{"start":52.113,"end":79.54,"text":"累計80萬公噸分別集中在新竹、屏東、南投、雲林、桃園等縣市那環境部目前這個應急措施就是未來3年內中央會投入12億補助地方政府將裸露垃圾複土來做掩埋及分選打包然後並訂定裸露垃圾掩埋場分園完成84萬噸的妥善處理目標沒有錯吧?沒有錯"},{"start":81.884,"end":99.577,"text":"同時還寄望在今年年底新竹縣的焚化廠會完工以及116年台南市誠心焚化廠更新這個焚化爐要完工來運轉然後藉此在這個全國有29場的總處理量能可以達到700萬噸的這樣的一個目標有沒有錯"},{"start":107.27,"end":129.765,"text":"但是你這個規劃上顯然是有問題的部長你看一下台灣現在在垃圾處理上還是以文化為主對不對沒錯我這邊有個資料部長你可以詳細閱讀一下111年這個是你們不提供給我的家屋垃圾也就是一般的廢棄物全國共產出在111年度的時候是469萬噸然後對於國內"},{"start":134.7,"end":142.122,"text":"這個公有的焚化爐每年可以處理650萬噸這數字應該都沒有錯嘛然後上面應該還有181萬的這個餘裕181萬噸的餘裕嘛同樣這個焚化爐你的事業會期物的處理量是97萬噸也應該沒有錯嘛因為這個數字是你們提供給我除了你們提供有錯誤嘛"},{"start":158.871,"end":161.537,"text":"問題來了在114年燒完當年這個家屋垃圾及私有廢棄物後應該還有80萬噸的空間這空間跑去哪裡?"},{"start":172.697,"end":198.077,"text":"上面講的你的報告中指出累計裸露戰刺53場累計已經80萬公噸如果對照110英年你們剛好又是有一個處理到一般交惡社事業費期物等等等而且你們事業費期物還有在持續的要求要減量嘛吼那你們還有一個80萬噸的空間這80萬噸的空間跑去哪裡"},{"start":200.933,"end":210.697,"text":"我沒有寫出來啦,你們自己算嘛。650扣469扣97啊。就84萬噸啊。報告委員,這個97萬噸的這個數字,因為我們是統計是180萬噸。事業費契物。事業費契物的部分是180萬噸。文化的事業費契物。這是你們網路的數字餒?"},{"start":231.089,"end":235.432,"text":"那為什麼你們網路顯示出來是97萬噸那我到底要參考那個數據"},{"start":259.158,"end":270.787,"text":"我現在沒有問你們有沒有180嗎?你們知道網路是97嗎?你現在可以馬上上網就可以看了啊。你們自己的資料是97萬噸啊。所以我才會這麼跟你算出來說你還有84萬噸的這個餘量啊。跑去哪裡啊?我們請我們負責的。你們先把數據釐清啦齁。就再跟部長講。"},{"start":285.005,"end":300.757,"text":"110年度的數據,台灣每年加護垃圾量平均就是在450萬噸左右嘛,對不對?然後事業會幾乎是在你們環境部的努力之下喔每年的這個聲報的數據也都在減少那如果說180萬噸是沒有減少的是在增加喔"},{"start":307.51,"end":328.322,"text":"跟委員報告這個公告在上面的是屬於列管事業有97萬噸那有一些事業他沒有列管的他也會進文化場這兩個加起來是180萬噸有列管的97沒有列管的又有將近快83萬噸是這樣那你為什麼你們網路不把這個東西標示出來"},{"start":333.93,"end":360.623,"text":"我回去會跟循環署這邊講還是你這83有什麼網路的部分我們把它你們知道這有問題啊你83萬吨是怎麼處理一樣是你列管你列管你願意標示出來你沒有列管的你就不把它標示出來可以上下其手原本齁原本環境部以前環保署在補助部長應該很清楚嘛當時我們在補助這些魂化爐的時候"},{"start":361.408,"end":361.488,"text":"主席"},{"start":391.089,"end":416.321,"text":"我就覺得這問題又更大了啦其實魂化爐部長應該要應該有徹底去了解吧有有他的問題真的實在是非常非常的多啦哪一個地方政府執政這個魂化爐是整個他在控管反而不是你環境部不是對但是法律給你們之後應該甚至於你所謂的"},{"start":417.6,"end":440.901,"text":"116年度的台南市的城西混化廠的更新胡鬧爐這個錢的補助也是來自中央啊?難道是地方政府自酬嗎?沒有沒有沒有,不是,是來來來,促餐啦他們走促餐的時候走促餐,但是之前的胡鬧爐更新的費用百分之一百是來自環境部啊沒有走促餐的,除此之外"},{"start":442.606,"end":465.634,"text":"應該都是來自環境部啊?以前環保署啊?也沒有,它原先更新的部分也都是會走促餐促餐去更新,譬如說OT或者是其他的方式去做不走促餐不走OT,那更新葫蘆的費用來自哪裡?那就是廠商會有商業條件跟縣政府去談,這樣子環保署從頭到尾沒有編列預算補助過更新葫蘆爐"},{"start":467.97,"end":489.848,"text":"有一些規劃或者是前期的作業我們會補助一些錢但是規劃完畢之後那個部分就是規劃及前期的作業有其他的更新混同化土的費用環保署完全沒有編列過任何一筆預算你那時候應該還沒有在這個位置吧如果還沒有在這個位置可能就小心這樣亂打會出問題我們可以調出來看嘛"},{"start":493.582,"end":510.516,"text":"現在是剛好預算在躺著整個審預算的時候我們就可以好好來討論環保署一年編了多少個預算來更新這些葷臘爐環保署是大頭捏你們怎麼會不清楚這個事情哪有規劃費用而已哪有做促餐而已"},{"start":513.294,"end":528.541,"text":"我要跟部長講說你看啦齁今天這個環境部的報告是說我們是希望在116年度的時候混化量要達700萬噸嘛對不對好我覺得我覺得如果今天我們到現在還垃圾燒不完"},{"start":529.42,"end":548.287,"text":"我們國家變了這麼多的預算不管成了你所講的秋餐啦不管還是怎樣的情況之下環保署扮演的多重要的一個堅強的角色但是垃圾到現在還處理不完燒不完啦齁甚至於你看你還累計80萬公噸然後不是打包啊就是怎樣"},{"start":549.636,"end":576.189,"text":"繼續做這個SRF對不對那SRF在前部長宣布的時候我特別在委員會要求要整個盤整嘛我知道我知道裡面有洞起來啦不合格規定的就打掉這個我肯定啦齁但是到現在全國應該只有18場不合格規定打掉幾場我們製造的有48場使用的有18場然後製造的部分的話大概有十幾場已經有轉型"},{"start":577.386,"end":598.826,"text":"有轉型?轉什麼樣型?有的就沒有做了,有的就是它不是SRF了。對啦,是沒有做了還是轉型?有的沒有做了,有的就是不是SRF了,就不是認定SRF了。你在這邊我們SRF就主要是轉匯為冷嘛對不對?那你看喔,省進部給你一個報告是說環境部在2017年到2023年花費6億"},{"start":601.648,"end":629.579,"text":"9千多萬將近7億也是用補助這幾個縣市臺中臺南宜蘭雲林南投屏東花園臺東澎湖九縣市跟剛剛我講的這幾個全台裸露佔這個垃圾場重疊最起碼一半以上然後設置15套垃圾的分選打包這樣的一個設施報告中還指出打包後的垃圾下一步應該就是製成SRF轉匯為能但是9成的打包垃圾沒有製成SRF"},{"start":630.56,"end":638.202,"text":"那你如果打包之後還是要拿到胡鬧裡去燒那等於你就是把漆就是拿到胡鬧裡去把它燒掉啊這事情部長知道吧知道知道對啊怎麼會這樣我剛剛還肯定你們啊"},{"start":654.208,"end":671.069,"text":"對SRF長的這樣的一個嚴厲的一個報告委員現在SRF的量能大概只有一年多只有30萬噸啦跟這個實際上的這麼的大量還是有很大的落差啦那所以其實我們體檢完之後我希望年底有一個白皮書能夠有一個比較好清楚的政策因為SRF在台灣"},{"start":671.73,"end":691.508,"text":"其實我必須說我們大概有兩成多的企業已經退出了所以其實它本身反而是沒有那麼合格的我們希望有好的合格重新再整軍再往前走啦不然的話當時這樣的制度我沒有參與在裡面但是我覺得當時急推SRF的確是對台灣而言管理不善是一個災難"},{"start":693.836,"end":710.114,"text":"在你還未就任之前我就有跟前部長講說SRF全國SRF要盤整一次我們盤整完了這個資料我們委員會還是本席也都沒有相關的資料我們這兩天我提供好不好給委員會我們來參考這第一啦那第二省進部提出這樣的問題這確實是問題存在嘛"},{"start":712.701,"end":723.27,"text":"第3個SIF陳副部長所講的一年可以處理到30萬噸的量能現在嘛對不對你現在堆置的喔全台53場你們的累計是80萬噸喔阿你有九成沒有打包喔九成沒有處理喔九成打包之後沒有製成SIF喔這一來一往我不曉得你們怎麼處理這個事情我覺得這倒有問題阿"},{"start":741.997,"end":765.389,"text":"你寧願84萬噸在那邊暫時裸露然後你自我在邊綠山區去補助然後你一年可以處理30萬噸的SF那如果這樣84萬噸增加我們先不談嘛你等於是兩年半你就可以全部都處理掉了啊當然沒有這麼講得這麼容易啦齁沒有兩年半即便三年也可以打掉啊你也不是說回過頭來來寄望116年這兩個胡鬧魯的啟用啊照你講的數據嘛"},{"start":771.756,"end":784.659,"text":"這是顯然有問題啊不過這個垃圾不是直接來做SRF,SRF有它的定義我當然知道啊,怎麼有可能垃圾直接做SRF我不知道當時這個定義是說要九成來做SRF的理由是什麼,這個我再瞭解一下"},{"start":786.653,"end":786.813,"text":"好 謝謝劉委員"},{"start":816.537,"end":816.557,"text":"謝謝部長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:59:07 - 12:12:45","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155178","gazette":{"lineno":907,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時59分）好，謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["彭部長啓明：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。先請教部長這個垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策，這一本，這個報告你有特別double check過嗎？這你們做的，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我做的。"],["劉委員建國：一般是幕僚做好之後就直接跟你回報說沒問題。"],["彭部長啓明：我有看過，而且我有改。"],["劉委員建國：你有看過，也有改？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：那就更危險了。"],["陳委員瑩：同意。"],["劉委員建國：其他委員也說同意，你看。你報告中指出目前全臺裸露暫置垃圾掩埋場共53場，累計80萬公噸，分別集中在新竹、屏東、南投、雲林、桃園等縣市。環境部目前這個應急措施，就是未來3年內，中央會投入12億，補助地方政府將裸露垃圾覆土來做掩埋及分選打包，並訂定裸露垃圾掩埋場，分年完成84萬噸的妥善處理目標，沒有錯吧？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：好，沒有錯。然後，同時你還寄望喔！在今年年底，新竹縣的焚化廠會完工，以及116年臺南市城西焚化廠更新焚化爐要完工來運轉？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：然後屆時在全國有29廠的總處理量能，可以達到700噸的這樣的一個目標，有沒有錯？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：好，但是你這個規劃上顯然是有問題，不然你看一下，臺灣現在在垃圾處理上，還是以焚化為主對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：我這邊有一個資料，部長可以詳細閱讀一下。這也是你們部提供給我的，家用垃圾也就是一般的廢棄物，在111年的時候全國共產出469萬噸，然後國內公有的焚化爐，每年可以處理650萬噸，這數字應該都沒有錯嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，然後應該還有181萬噸的餘裕嘛！同年這個焚化爐，你們事業廢棄物的處理量是97萬噸，也應該沒有錯嘛！因為這個數字是你們提供給我，除非你們提供有錯誤。好，那問題來了，在111年燒完當年家戶垃圾及事業廢棄物後，應該還有80萬噸的空間，這空間跑去哪裡？上面講的，你的報告中指出，累計裸露暫置53場，累計已經80萬公噸，如果對照111年的資料，你們剛好又有一個處理到一般家戶垃圾、事業廢棄物等等的數字，而且你們事業廢棄物還有在持續要求要減量，那你們還有80萬噸的空間，這80萬噸的空間跑去哪裡？我沒有寫出來，你們自己算嘛！650扣469扣97就84萬噸啊！"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，這個97萬噸的數字，因為我們的統計是180萬噸事業廢棄物，事業廢棄物的部分是180萬噸。"],["彭部長啓明：焚化的事業廢棄物。"],["劉委員建國：這是你們網路的數字，焚化的事業廢棄物的總total。你給部長是180，你在網路上是84。"],["彭部長啓明：他說可燃性的事業廢棄物是180萬噸。"],["劉委員建國：可燃性？"],["彭部長啓明：進到焚化爐。"],["劉委員建國：進了嗎？全部都進嗎？180萬噸都進嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：都全部焚化完成，那為什麼你們網路顯示出來是97萬噸，那我到底要參考哪個數據？我現在沒有問你們有沒有180，你們在網路上的數字是97嘛！你現在馬上上網就可以看，你們自己的資料是97萬噸啊！所以我才會這麼算出來，說你還有84萬噸的餘量啊！跑去哪裡啊？"],["彭部長啓明：來，我請我們負責的來……"],["劉委員建國：你們需要釐清數據。再跟部長講，111年度的數據，臺灣每年家戶垃圾量平均就是在465萬噸左右，對不對？而事業廢棄物在你們環境部的努力之下，每年的申報數據也都在減少，如果說180萬噸是沒有減少的，是在增加喔！"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，公告在上面的是屬於列管事業，有97萬噸，有一些事業是沒有列管的，它的廢棄物也會進焚化廠，這兩個加起來是180萬噸。"],["劉委員建國：有列管的是97？"],["顏署長旭明：對。"],["劉委員建國：沒有列管的又有將近快83萬噸？"],["顏署長旭明：對。"],["劉委員建國：是這樣？"],["顏署長旭明：是。"],["劉委員建國：那為什麼你們網路不把這個東西標示出來？"],["顏署長旭明：這個我回去會跟循環署講……"],["劉委員建國：還是你這83萬噸，有什麼……"],["顏署長旭明：網路的部分，我們把它……"],["劉委員建國：你們這樣就有問題啊！你83萬噸是怎麼處理？"],["顏署長旭明：一樣是……"],["劉委員建國：你列管的，你願意標示出來，你沒有列管的，你就不把它標示出來，可以上下其手。原本環境部以前環保署在補助，部長應該很清楚嘛！當時我們在補助這些焚化爐的時候，補助完之後有蘿蔔，但是我們沒有棒子，因為我們沒有調度權。後來我們在廢清法裡面修了法律，將垃圾優先，再來就是事業廢棄物嘛！對不對？所以才不會造就你們要整個調度，整個焚化爐的處理過程裡面經常在講，說你們沒有調度權。我們法律也給你們了，依據都給你們了，然後現在你們反而有這樣的空間，你不把它顯示出來，我就覺得這個問題又更大了。其實焚化爐部長應該有澈底去了解吧？"],["彭部長啓明：有。"],["劉委員建國：它的問題真的實在是非常非常的多啦！一個地方政府執政，這個焚化爐是整個他在控管，反而不是環境部。"],["彭部長啓明：不是。"],["劉委員建國：對，但是法律給你們之後，甚至116年度臺南市城西焚化廠的更新，這個錢的補助也是來自中央，難道是地方政府自籌嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，不是，是促參啦！"],["顏署長旭明：他們走促參的時候，我們沒有……"],["劉委員建國：喔，走促參，但是之前焚化爐更新的費用，百分之一百是來自環境部啊！沒有走促參的，除此之外，應該都是來自環境部，以前的環保署啊！"],["顏署長旭明：也沒有，他原先更新的部分，大部分也都會走促參，促參去更新，譬如說OT或者是其他的方式去做。"],["劉委員建國：不走促參，不走OT，那更新焚化爐的費用來自哪裡？"],["顏署長旭明：廠商會有商業條件跟縣政府去談。"],["劉委員建國：環保署從頭到尾沒有編列預算，補助過更新焚化爐？"],["顏署長旭明：有，有一些規劃或者是前期的作業，我們會補助一些錢，但是規劃完畢之後，那個部分就是……"],["劉委員建國：規劃及前期的作業有，其他更新焚化爐的費用，環保署完全沒有編列過任何一筆預算？你那時候應該還沒有在這個位置吧？"],["顏署長旭明：是，那時候沒有。"],["劉委員建國：如果沒有在這個位置，可能就要小心，這樣亂答會出問題。我們可以調出來看嘛！現在是剛好預算還躺著，等審預算的時候我們就可以好好來討論，環保署一年編了多少預算來更新這些焚化爐。環保署是大頭耶，你們怎麼會不清楚這個事情？哪有規劃費用而已，哪有走促參而已。我要跟部長講，你看今天這個環境部的報告是說，我們是寄望在116年度的時候，焚化量要達700萬噸，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，我覺得如果我們到現在垃圾還燒不完，我們國家編了這麼多的預算，不管是你所講的促參，還是怎樣的情況之下，環保署扮演了多重要的、堅強的角色，但是垃圾到現在還處理不完，燒不完啦！甚至你看，你還累計80萬公噸，不是打包就是怎樣，就繼續做SRF，對不對？SRF在薛前部長的時候，我特別在委員會要求要整個盤整。我知道你們有動起來啦！不符合規定的就打掉。"],["彭部長啓明：有。"],["劉委員建國：這個我肯定啦！但是到現在全國應該只有18場，不符合規定打掉幾場？"],["彭部長啓明：我們製造的有48場，使用的有18場，然後製造的部分大概有十幾場已經有轉型。"],["劉委員建國：有轉型，要轉什麼樣的型？"],["彭部長啓明：就是有的就沒有做了，有的它不是SRF了。"],["劉委員建國：是沒有做了，還是轉型？"],["彭部長啓明：有的沒有做了，有的就不是SRF了，就不是認定SRF了。"],["劉委員建國：你知不知道我們SRF最主要是轉廢為能，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：你看，審計部給你一個報告，說環境部在2017年到2023年花費六億九千多萬，將近七億，也是用於補助這幾個縣市，臺中、臺南、宜蘭、雲林、南投、屏東、花蓮、臺東、澎湖九縣市，跟剛剛我講的這幾個全臺裸露暫置的垃圾場，重疊最起碼一半以上，然後設置十五套垃圾的分選打包這樣的設施。報告中還指出打包後的垃圾，下一步應該就是製成SRF轉廢為能，但是九成的打包垃圾沒有製成SRF。地方政府喊冤啊！意思是說，環境部只是補助打包，也沒有要求製成SRF。怎麼會有這樣大的認知落差？你如果打包之後，還是要拿到焚化爐去燒，等於你就是把七億拿到焚化爐裡燒掉啊！這事情部長知道吧？"],["彭部長啓明：知道。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！怎麼會這樣？我剛剛還肯定你們，對SRF廠嚴厲的一個……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在SRF的量能，大概就一年只有30萬噸，跟實際上這麼的大量還是有很大的落差啦！其實我們體檢完之後，我希望年底有一個白皮書，能夠有一個比較清楚的政策。因為SRF在臺灣，我必須說，我們大概有兩成多的企業已經退出了，所以其實它本身反而是沒有那麼合格的，我們希望有好的、合格的重新再整軍、再往前走。不然的話，當時這樣的制度，我沒有參與在裡面，但是我覺得當時急推SRF，的確對臺灣而言，管理不善是一個災難。"],["劉委員建國：部長，在你來之前我就有跟前部長講，全國的SRF要盤整一次。"],["彭部長啓明：有，我們盤整完了。"],["劉委員建國：我們委員會還是本席也都沒有相關的資料。"],["彭部長啓明：我們這兩天會提供好不好，因為我們……"],["劉委員建國：好，給委員會參考，這是第一。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：第二，審計部提出這樣的問題，這顯示問題確實是存在。第三，SRF誠如部長所講的，現在一年可以處理到30萬噸的量能，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：你現在堆置的全臺有53場，你們累計是80萬噸，你有九成沒有處理，九成打包之後沒有製成SRF。這一來一往，我不曉得你們怎麼處理這個事情，我覺得這大有問題啊！你寧願84萬噸在那邊暫置裸露，政府再編列預算去補助，然後你一年可以處理30萬噸的SRF，如果這樣84萬噸，增加的我們先不談，你等於兩年半就可以全部都處理掉了。當然沒有講的這麼容易啦！沒有兩年半，即便三年也可以打掉啊！你也不是說回過頭來寄望116年這兩個焚化爐啟用啊！照你講的數據顯然有問題啊！"],["彭部長啓明：不過這個垃圾不是直接來做SRF，SRF有它的定義……"],["劉委員建國：我當然知道啊！怎麼有可能垃圾直接做SRF？"],["彭部長啓明：我不知道當時的定義，要九成拿來做SRF的理由是什麼，這個我再了解一下。"],["劉委員建國：九成打包沒有做成SRF，當然不是說九成全部都要去做SRF，但是比例多少，這個你們要精算嘛！你們補助地方政府打包，希望他們去做SRF。你們也都補助了，他們為什麼量能低到這種程度？這是問題所在啊！時間到了，部長，一個星期好不好，我們把這事情釐清，給委員會一個報告好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝劉委員，謝謝部長。接續我們請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:08:07","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:09:14+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155177","委員名稱":"邱若華","duration":487,"start_time":"2024-10-07T12:01:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493d11febf2f4854001bb8e3b5ddc0e7677b5ac217a49bd2e2e59817481ac32d1165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.075343750000002,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.551593750000002,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.973468750000002,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.024093750000002,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.074718750000002,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.140968750000003,"end":25.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.136593750000003,"end":27.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.60471875,"end":28.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.75221875,"end":37.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.74659375,"end":41.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.813468750000006,"end":48.479093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.06971875,"end":51.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.65159375,"end":54.064718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.18284375,"end":63.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.13909375,"end":67.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.34096875,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.11284375000001,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.26846875000001,"end":76.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.82909375,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.83221875000001,"end":91.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.13471875,"end":100.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.16284375000001,"end":104.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.40284375,"end":112.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.72221875000001,"end":119.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.59034375,"end":144.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.22346875,"end":150.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.65721875,"end":158.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.41971875000002,"end":169.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.99596875,"end":176.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.20159375,"end":178.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.99034375000002,"end":179.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.30659375000002,"end":181.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.48784375000002,"end":181.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.04471875000002,"end":201.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.90659375,"end":202.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.78409375,"end":202.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.93596875,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.29409375,"end":210.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.20471875,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.99784375000002,"end":212.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.14971875,"end":214.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.87096875,"end":228.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.75909375,"end":233.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.67846875,"end":230.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.92159375000003,"end":241.34346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.47846875000002,"end":246.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.19909375,"end":251.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.43471875000003,"end":253.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.21909375,"end":257.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.83034375,"end":262.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.82534375,"end":266.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.62221875,"end":280.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.54409375,"end":288.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.52159375,"end":299.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.79846875000004,"end":305.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.94096875,"end":307.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.00846875,"end":309.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.78034375000004,"end":307.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.81409375000004,"end":307.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.89846875,"end":307.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.01659375,"end":330.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.28346875,"end":328.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.54471875,"end":333.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.25721875000005,"end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主席有請翁代理主委翁代理主委好"},{"start":26.275,"end":39.147,"text":"黃代主委好 主委 詐騙案件還是不斷發生 詐騙集團可以說是無孔不入 利用臉書、LINE、電話、簡訊等工具進行詐騙導致我們國人民眾損失慘重 那詐騙原來成為國人的惡夢還有陰影根據法務部資料統計 臺灣的電信詐騙 電信詐騙從108年的3萬4千多件"},{"start":49.136,"end":65.912,"text":"一百一十二年直接暴增到二十二萬九千多件答福這個增幅達到了百分之五百五十七點三十一那今年一到八月那個案件數也來到了十一萬五千多件那代理主委您說您的專長是電信嗎"},{"start":68.379,"end":91.708,"text":"那就叫您幾個問題就本席了解去年2月桃園地檢署查獲了不肖的第二類電信業者與詐騙集團合作共發出1193萬封詐騙簡訊甚至還跟中華電信合作的第二類業者將民眾的個資外洩給詐騙集團那由此我們可以知道第二類電信業者已經成為了電信詐騙主要的破口之一"},{"start":92.228,"end":118.988,"text":"那面對問題NCC在今年4月發布電信事業用戶號碼使用的管理辦法那第二類電信業者的監管推給合作的第一類電信業者隨後在6月發布的電信事業受理申辦電信服務風險管理機制之一一樣規定合作第一類業者監管第二類電信業者那主委這樣子要求第一類電信業者來管理第二類電信業者請問翁代主委這樣合理嗎"},{"start":120.288,"end":143.982,"text":"報告委員我先講一下因為我們對MVMO我們在113年4月26號的電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法已經有要求你要做這種用戶號碼批發轉售的要來登記不是就是直接我們會針對MVMO不是經過透過MMO去管MVMO"},{"start":145.287,"end":168.787,"text":"第一類電信業者沒有公權力的情況下你認為第二類業者他們會來配合嗎跟委員報告那個MVMO現在是他已經要來登記了假使來登現在要經營MVMO的就是號碼批發傳售的他一定要來登記我們區間裡就直接去管他不會再透過不會透過那個MMO"},{"start":170.266,"end":190.955,"text":"那黃建豪委員還有鍾嘉斌委員他們都有分別針對第二類電信業者納管部分提出電信管理修正草案那主委您看過嗎我有看過那您認同嗎我支持現在這種用我們現在用這種MVMO就是透過那個電信號碼是使用管理辦法來管理MVMO"},{"start":191.835,"end":209.44,"text":"法制上面更精進就是提就是像宗嘉斌委員他們的提案就是把那個第二類電信再做列管再做列管那本席認為第二類業者應該由主管機關來監管對沒有錯他來登記成為電信事業就是要管"},{"start":211.277,"end":232.082,"text":"您會管齁?那希望您能做到但是這一部分就是要我們現在是用那個電信事業用號碼管理辦法來做行政管理那未來假使是說電管法有修的話那更正當再請提供本席素面資料那因為時間的關係主席有請我們訴發部黃部長"},{"start":241.797,"end":256.798,"text":"部長好就本席了解我們第三方支付虛擬貨幣已經成為詐騙集團的洗錢工具之一那第三方支付在國內最早可追溯到107年那110年的時候第三方支付就已經當年就有檢察官基層的檢察官要求說"},{"start":258.019,"end":279.226,"text":"希望我們相關的主管機關將第三方支付列為特許行業那之後訴發部在111年8月27號掛牌而第三方支付的主管機關就是訴發部那當年詐騙案件數已經突破了16萬件很可惜當時訴發部認為自己的業務只在於推動數位發展那不負責監管的席位最後造成詐騙橫行"},{"start":280.606,"end":281.406,"text":"數位經濟是我們納管的一個產業"},{"start":306.333,"end":330.052,"text":"希望接下來數位發展部也會嚴格來執行我們會再監管他們那個尤其是剛剛講這個能量登錄就是說第三方支付他要提供這個服務必須通過我們的能量登錄包括資產減額他通過才能夠提供這個服務那我們這個也跟金管會合作就是說他要申請到虛擬帳號必須要經過我們能量登錄才能夠去申請所以這方面的管理現在都在進行中"},{"start":331.473,"end":355.108,"text":"有很多委員都提到一夜市廣告那個偽冒名人的詐騙廣告在各大的網路平台都可以看到那近期這些詐騙集團也越來越囂張把他們的觸手都伸到了職棒圈用假帳號抹黑球員還有以利他們來詐騙那導致球團發出聲明要求球員近期不要跟球迷合照那速發部終於在10月10號的時候也推出了網路的詐騙APP通報"},{"start":355.948,"end":375.695,"text":"那速發部強調如果公眾人物遭到詐騙集團尾報可以回報速發部那速發部會要求Facebook還有Line、Google、IG等社群平台要求這些這些廣告來下架那本席覺得速發部推出的APP應該是可以有效的來打擊詐騙只是太慢了"},{"start":376.175,"end":403.448,"text":"那非要問題那麼嚴重才提出解決的方案那在這邊本席也要跟部長分享一個小故事那去年的時候我的助理就向我們訴發部來提出就反映就是有一頁式的詐騙網站那當時訴發部的回應是要他去找警政署向警政署來反映真的非常的無言那本席希望訴發部接下來對執行防詐的相關政策可以積極來面對可以承諾本席嗎"},{"start":404.268,"end":427.301,"text":"那個報告委員沒錯我們現在就是剛剛講就是說有4個業者是為經濟的業者是我們積極在處理的一個就是剛剛講第三彎致富再來就是網路廣告平台商那這些廣告剛剛講假名的廣告通常是經過網路平台廣告平台商來做這個發佈那在這裡面當然這裡面一個大宗就是Facebook"},{"start":427.461,"end":441.935,"text":"那所以我們有跟Facebook現在就是在做這方面的合作就是希望他能夠我們會有用我們的AI系統去掃描比如說Facebook的所有的網頁看到有詐騙的那個那個像這種假名人的廣告我們會要求他下架"},{"start":442.535,"end":457.09,"text":"那目前我們看到這個效果當然就是詐騙這個最後當然希望是打詐的專法裡面通過之後我們可以用KYC就是使命制來杜絕這個問題但在這個之前我們現在是利用這種通報機制"},{"start":458.191,"end":483.716,"text":"看到以後就要求要下架目前大概到目前為止從8月23號到現在用這樣的一個網路這個網路詐騙的通報系統我們他們已經下架大概5萬多筆的這個詐騙廣告所以是有效果但是要到最後效果還是要靠法規來要求實名制那才能完全杜絕這樣的一個假名人廣告的謝謝部長說明希望數法部可以再更積極出動一點我們會積極處理好謝謝謝謝主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:01:07 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我的擔心就是你現在要做這個代理主委你到底適不適合你覺得你適不適合"},{"start":115.902,"end":126.412,"text":"明哲你是不是,你講報告委員我那個我是按照組織法第4條那個行政院提名但是我也尊重那個立法院的審查權好"},{"start":128.137,"end":156.976,"text":"我真的覺得你很不適合一方面你前仗後仗真的不清不楚你很尷尬我覺得你是從基層出身的你不是什麼教授政治人物轉過來的我覺得這個晚節要保你一路來你專業取勝的你過去也很低調那你現在被放在這個位置我個人真的覺得很尷尬對我來講你是前委員我覺得你不適合兩點的理由第一個是我看到你過去"},{"start":159.138,"end":164.581,"text":"後面我來了解了基層公務人員出身這是好事長官的命令使命必達我專業取向那這個陳耀祥說什麼就算什麼"},{"start":186.906,"end":202.058,"text":"那這種你要接這個主委你覺得我們NCC還是不是一個獨立要公正不能有政黨色彩的一個機構你認為是不是不管你是不是代理主委啦你認為這個機構是怎麼樣是不是應該這個終止"},{"start":205.641,"end":232.39,"text":"報言我們應該獨立公正那有關於那個不同意見書或協同意見書我有寫過我有寫就是對於因為我的專長是在電信所以說電信的合併或者是頻譜的轉讓我都有寫協同意見書所以電視沒有啦電信有對是因為我的專長是在電信那頻譜的交易或者是電信公司之間的合併好我知道我知道"},{"start":233.03,"end":245.899,"text":"那我們最最最民眾關心爭議的部分那你還是遵照這個陳耀祥的一個指令嘛投下那一票所以我覺得你這個真的不太適合耶到底我們獨立公正吵了這麼久"},{"start":247.267,"end":273.166,"text":"那現在你來接到底是要銷規朝隨繼續延續我們陳前主委的政策我是受不了第二個我覺得你真的要趕快辭職的原因是你有辱這個獨立公正的機構媒體訪問你你說你這個代理主委你到底怎麼看有什麼委員有意見你其中有一句話讓我真的是很驚豔然後到驚嚇你說"},{"start":275.387,"end":301.793,"text":"我主要是配合行政院的命令來代理院長配合行政院你什麼叫獨立的機構你知道嗎什麼叫獨立的機構你獨立的機構你獨立思考你這個機構面臨行政院有錯的時候你要站出來去挑戰他總統有問題的時候你要堅定你的獨立公正的立場不收任何黨派來去來去這個管制可是我告訴你你會講我的信念就這樣我會說"},{"start":303.433,"end":328.119,"text":"不可能啊為什麼因為你的命懸一線要你幹不要你幹這個線過去在立法院多黨派的委員表決合一之下現在兩條線一個木偶拉在總統跟行政院手上你要告訴我我就配合行政院其實是總統的一個指令配合府院嘛哇好感人喔配合府院你以後我只有這個"},{"start":329.139,"end":351.66,"text":"做代理主委配合他有所有NCC各項的需要獨立的我都不會配合他你騙誰啊你騙誰啊你現在我坦白講他把你剪掉再見了所以我是覺得在這種情況之下我希望你要知所進退啦因為我真的不認為你是真的主委啦那請回座接下來我們請這個"},{"start":355.888,"end":379.245,"text":"事務部 黃部長好 我們請黃部長警政署 李副組長還有我們打詐中心的黃子敏那後面就稍微問快一點這個因為打詐我們上上一任也是在交通委員會還有很多的委員會大家打詐已經講了過去至少我聽到在立法院已經四年到第五年了"},{"start":380.222,"end":397.939,"text":"那我覺得我們小英總統到現在的我們賴總統都不斷的宣誓不斷的透過組織版本也不斷的更新打詐1.0、1.5、2.0不斷的推陳出新我必須要說我在交通委員會讓我最感覺安心的"},{"start":398.78,"end":416.599,"text":"打詐的那半天就是每一次打詐的專案報告看到你們報告四平八穩歌功頌德不斷地改善讓我真的含淚但是一回去回到我們人間的時候發覺不是那麼回事耶越打越詐"},{"start":418.988,"end":434.375,"text":"110年到112年你們看這個數字嘛一年大概2萬多到3萬多的數字成長率不斷的增加就是到112年嘛因為你們今年可能有改變啊可能沒講清楚嘛但是一年2萬多3萬的一個件數啊"},{"start":439.832,"end":463.479,"text":"剛剛黃俊浩委員也說我們過去然後財損從110年到112年3年的產損大概51到88.751到81這是警政署在這邊你們的刑事局提供的一個數字截至我們去年在問的時候今年上半會議在問的時候還是88.7那就請教一下"},{"start":465.031,"end":482.468,"text":"前三年加起來218億前三年我們國人被詐騙的財損218億三年加起來結果呢我們今年右邊是我們一到八月這個被詐欺的概況我們現在七到八月總共加起來248億"},{"start":484.793,"end":485.053,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":505.427,"end":519.523,"text":"當任副局長這個數字也是你們填上去你們彙整的嘛到了7月的時候你還是刑事局的副局長你從頭到尾都是你請教一下請教一下1到6月平均每個月8.7的財損怎麼會變到7月8月"},{"start":526.618,"end":551.31,"text":"8.7喔!下一個月是100多億的變化的巧妙在哪裡?跟你說一下是,跟委員報告,謝謝委員關心這個數據的問題喔!那個一到六月這個統計的基準跟去年前年的基準都是一樣我們都是用刑案的紀錄表在做統計的這都是民眾報案以後到後端的偵查的結果以後再去做呈報可是因為我們因為今年要推出這個打詐以表版要第一時間"},{"start":552.35,"end":573.388,"text":"讓民眾知道我們那個受理的狀況所以我們把這個統計的期程改變了就是只要民眾一來警察機關報案不管他報的是不是糾紛是不是還有需要查證我們一蓋就收納所以所有的金額我們都一蓋把它放進來所以才會有大幅增長的情形部長你也辛苦了"},{"start":575.134,"end":594.24,"text":"但是我覺得有點鬼扯當然第一個至少打臉的剛剛黃部長沒有啦是因為去年有些人沒報案啦一聽到我們有打詐司法過了很激動的搶來報案不是這樣嘛是因為過去你是從哪裡是收案來統計數字還是由司法判決你說你跟他講的完全不一樣"},{"start":595.2,"end":623.79,"text":"那再來為什麼說你這個有點有點鬼扯啊為什麼呢因為我過去一整年按理說你110年的數字會不斷的變動隨著司法的判決結案會不斷的成長111年也不斷的成長可是我告訴你你這個數字啊從我們去年報到今年數字都沒有變你是講說今天列管的我們法務部什麼事都沒有做整整的一兩年一個案都沒有結我告訴你"},{"start":624.946,"end":647.3,"text":"我是覺得齁我們要解決詐騙喔第一個政府的數字不要再詐騙了現在所有的你們所有的報告裡面你們有很多美化的文字齁或者有一些真真假假的藏在中間或者有一些報喜不報憂的那沒有辦法你們要這樣寫可是問題是數字台灣數字詐欺這個數字我們能看嗎我只覺得"},{"start":653.775,"end":678.21,"text":"這個有很政治性欸很政治性啊在我的看法哇塞哇賴清德總統一上任真的完全不注重詐騙才上任還沒占五二零上任之後7月增加10倍過去8.7變成110億財損哎呦賴政府不行啊感覺是你們是在打臉新潮嗎還是"},{"start":680.783,"end":694.361,"text":"還是在打臉救的沒有我們現在是公開透明一清二楚是過去有一個人一直藏一直藏藏不住我們才拿出來到底哪個啊你們回去真的好好去想想最後最後我要拜託黃部長"},{"start":698.953,"end":720.824,"text":"好 拜託你 因為我們也發覺不光是打詐事法在過去我們不斷的去加嚴打詐不管希望他受到的我們就是不管是偵辦的快速甚至後面的一個後果不斷的增加但是我們看到112年最新的一樣警政署的統計表"},{"start":723.085,"end":749.896,"text":"這個我不覺得不有趣啊 一點都不有趣我覺得很擔心嫌疑犯的部分比110年相對來講0到17歲112年比110年喔你們的表格 唉呦增加了31.53大概三分 超過差不多三分之一啊就說 我不太理解是不是因為我們的可能犯罪的成本越來越高"},{"start":750.556,"end":772.389,"text":"我們乾脆找一些18歲以下的年輕人去弄是不是這樣然後呢我也看到警政署也做了很多的校園去宣導他到底有沒有效果你們每一年都做蠻多的會不會你要宣導的人他早就翹課了他早就是失聯的學生了你再怎麼宣導他也不會來我不知道什麼原因但是如果這個數據是正確的我覺得這個黃部長你有什麼想法嗎"},{"start":777.086,"end":792.595,"text":"對於降德的如果嫌疑犯年輕化的趨勢把我們7月通過的打詐釋法對於成人的犯抓到會更嚴 跑不掉會不會這個趨勢更增加然後要怎麼辦 你有什麼想法"},{"start":796.069,"end":812.079,"text":"報告委員這個青少年增基增這個我覺得這個基本上一個就是我們在教育上真的要好好的加強因為這個實在是不應該發生的事情那當然現在因為這個將來是希望從源頭就斷了就是說希望"},{"start":814.881,"end":831.828,"text":"不管怎樣讓剛剛講就從這個網路的因為年輕人很多會利用網路希望說在網路上能夠多一些宣傳多一些這個不管是嚇阻的效果讓年輕人知道說你從事詐欺將來還是要還是一個可能還是會受嚴重的"},{"start":832.168,"end":849.743,"text":"好回去再想一想齁因為這個連教育部都有關係想一想想一想可能是宗措生但不行喔搞不好不是他們喔他們到底在哪裡到底發生什麼事或者為什麼零到十七歲會增加你們去想想要怎麼樣去防制新的"},{"start":850.444,"end":851.285,"text":"目前是馬事源指揮官"},{"start":874.198,"end":885.612,"text":"喔好那你回去跟他講一下好不好應該是對症下藥不要每一年的維新費用甚至相關的防治費用都投在相同的一個地方要分散這是我個人的建議謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:46:05 - 12:00:53","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155176","gazette":{"lineno":720,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時46分）謝謝主席！首先有請NCC翁柏宗先生來列席一下。"],["主席：我們請NCC翁柏宗委員列席。"],["魯委員明哲：這個翁先生啊！這是為什麼呢？因為你今天不管是在院會、在交通委員會，在整個列席備詢的身分上，其實受到很多的關心啦！對我來說，你目前的身分最多是翁前主委，是前主委！前主委的任期到7月31號已經截止了，但你前帳未清，後面借款又來了，後面提了4個名單，本來是前朝提的，現在已經付委了嘛，既然已經交到委員會，就表示我們卓院長也認同這個名單，也就是說你前帳未清後面又來了，也就疑似要挑戰立法院通過的NCC組織法嘛！不能延任你也延了，不能連任第三次你也送進來了，這個坦白講，如果是打臉我魯明哲就算了，打臉藍白就算了，但是NCC的法規是立法院通過的，是整個立法院這個機構通過的，所以我覺得你到立法院到底尊不尊重立法院是第一個問題。第二個是我擔心你現在要擔任這個代理主委到底適不適合，你覺得你適不適合？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：報告委員，我是按照組織法第四條由行政院提名的，但是我也尊重立法院的審查權。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我真的覺得你很不適合啦！一方面是你前帳後帳真的不清不楚，你很尷尬。我覺得你是從基層出身的，你不是什麼教授、政治人物轉過來的，我覺得這個晚節要保啊！一路走來你是以專業取勝的，過去也很低調嘛，那你現在被放到這個位置，我個人真的覺得很尷尬。對我來講，你是前委員，我覺得你不適合的理由有兩點，第一個是我看到你過去在NCC裡面的過程，委員會中有很多的委員提不同意見書，只有我們翁柏宗副主委從來沒有意見！中天新聞、鏡電視什麼的人家有意見，通過之後委員有不同意見，你從來沒有意見！後面我瞭解了，基層公務人員出身這是好事，長官的命令使命必達，以專業取向，這個陳耀祥說什麼就算什麼，你要接任這個主委，你覺得我們NCC還是不是一個獨立、公正、不能有政黨色彩的機構？你認為是不是？不管你是不是代理主委，你認為這個機構是怎麼樣？是不是應該維護這個宗旨？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：報告委員，我們應該獨立公正，關於不同意見書或協同意見書，我也有寫過，因為我的專長是在電信，所以對電信的合併或者是頻譜的轉讓，我都有寫協同意見書。"],["魯委員明哲：所以電視沒有，電信有。"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：對，因為我的專長是在電信，頻譜的交易或者是電信公司之間的合併……"],["魯委員明哲：我知道，那是我們民眾最最最關心爭議的部分，你還是遵照陳耀祥的指令投下那一票，所以我覺得你真的不太適合耶！到底有沒有獨立公正吵了這麼久，現在你來接任，到底是要蕭規曹隨，繼續延續我們陳前主委的政策，我是受不了齁！第二個，我覺得你真的要趕快辭職的原因是你有辱這個獨立公正的機構！媒體訪問你說你這個代理主委對有這麼多委員有意見到底怎麼看，你其中有一句話讓我真的是很驚艷然後到驚嚇，你說「我主要是配合行政院的命令來代理院長」，配合行政院？你知道什麼叫獨立的機構嗎？什麼叫獨立的機構？獨立機構要獨立思考，你這個機構在面臨行政院有錯的時候，要站出來去挑戰它，在總統有問題的時候，你要堅定你獨立、公正的立場，不受任何黨派管制，可是我告訴你，你會講「我的信念就是這樣」，我會說不可能啊！為什麼？因為你的命懸一線，要你幹不要你幹這個線，過去在立法院多黨派的委員表決合議之下，現在兩條線一個木偶拉在總統跟行政院手上，你告訴我「我就配合行政院」，其實是總統的一個指令，配合府院嘛！哇！好感人喔！配合府院，你說以後只有我這個代理主委配合他，以後所有NCC各項需要獨立的都不會配合他，你騙誰啊？你騙誰啊？我坦白講現在他把你剪掉，再見了！所以我是覺得在這種情況之下，我希望你要知所進退，因為我真的不認為你是真的主委啦！請回座。","接下來請教數位部黃部長、警政署李副署長，還有打詐中心的黃執秘。"],["主席：我們請黃部長、李副署長和黃執秘。"],["魯委員明哲：接下我會稍微問得快一點，因為打詐這件事，我上一任也在交通委員會，還有很多委員會，過去大家講到打詐已經講了很久，至少我在立法院聽到的已經有4到5年了，我們小英總統到現在的賴總統都不斷地宣示，不斷地透過組織，版本也不斷地更新，打詐1.0版、1.5版、2.0版，不斷地推陳出新，我必須要說，我在交通委員會讓我最感覺安心的打詐的那半天，就是每一次的打詐專案報告，看到你們的報告四平八穩、歌功頌德，不斷地改善，讓我真的含淚，但是一回去回到我們人間的時候，就發覺不是那麼那麼回事欸，越打越詐欸！你們看這個數字，110年到112年，一年大概二萬多到三萬多，成長率不斷地增加，這是到112年，因為你們今年可能有改變啊，可能沒講清楚，但是一年有二萬多到3萬的件數。剛剛我們也說到過去從110年到112年，三年的財損大概50億元到88.7億元，這是警政署刑事局截至我們今年上半會期詢問時提供的一個數字，那我就請教一下，前三年加起來我們國人被詐騙的財損達218億元，螢幕上這個圖右邊是今年1到8月被詐欺的概況，尤其是7到8月總共加起來就是248億元，這兩個月很輕鬆的超越了過去三年的218億元。先請警政署說明一下，因為這個數字是你們提供的，我想先請教副局長，因為你是關鍵證人，怎麼說呢？因為從今年1月你就擔任副局長，這個數字也是你們彙整的，到了7月的時候，你還是刑事局的副局長，從頭到尾都是你。請教一下，1到6月平均每個月8.7億元的財損，怎麼到了7、8月就從8.7億元增長到一個月百多億元？這變化的巧妙在哪裡？"],["黃副局長壬聰：跟委員報告，謝謝委員關心這個數據的問題，1到6月統計的基準跟去年、前年的基準一樣，我們都是用刑案的紀錄表在做統計的，這都是民眾報案以後到後端偵查的結果後再去做呈報。可是因為我們今年要推出這個打詐儀錶板，要在第一時間讓民眾知道我們受理的狀況，所以我們把統計的期程改變了，改成只要民眾一來警察機關報案，不管他報的是不是糾紛，是不是還需要查證，我們一概收納，所有金額也都一概放進來，所以才會有大幅增長的情形。"],["魯委員明哲：副局長你也辛苦了，但我覺得這有點鬼扯，第一個至少打臉了黃部長，「喔！沒有啦！是因為去年有些人沒報案啦！一聽到我們打詐4法過了就很激動的搶來報案」，原來不是這樣嘛，是因為你們過去是從收案還是由司法判決來統計數字，你剛剛講的完全不一樣。再來，我為什麼說你這個說法有點鬼扯，因為過去一整年，按理說110年的數字會不斷的變動，隨著司法的判決結案會不斷的成長，其實111年也不斷的成長，可是我告訴你，這個數字從去年到今年都沒有變，你是說今天列管的，我們法務部什麼事都沒有做，整整一、兩年，一個案都沒有結？我告訴你，我是覺得我們要解決詐騙，首先要做到政府的數字不要再詐騙了，現在你們所有的報告裡面有很多美化的文字，或者有一些真真假假的藏在中間，或者有些報喜不報憂的，那沒有辦法，你們要這樣寫，問題是數字臺灣、數字詐欺，這個數字我們能看嗎？我只覺得這個很政治性欸！很政治性啊！在我的看法是「哇塞！賴清德總統一上任，真的完全不注重詐騙」，在520上任之後，7月就增加10倍，財損從過去的8.7億元變成110億元，唉唷！賴政府不行啊！感覺是你們在打臉新朝嗎？還是在打臉舊的？沒有！我們現在是公開、透明，一清二楚，是過去有一個人一直藏、一直藏，藏不住了我們才拿出來嗎？到底是哪個？你們回去真的要好好想一下。","最後我要拜託黃部長，因為我們也發覺，事實上不光是打詐4法，在過去我們不斷的去加嚴打詐，不管是偵辦的快速，甚至後面的一個後果，不斷的增加，但是我們看到警政署112年最新的統計表，這個我覺得不有趣啊！一點都不有趣，我覺得很擔心。嫌疑犯的部分，相對110年來講，0到17歲這個年齡層，112年比110年增加了31.53%，差不多三分之一啊！我不太理解，是不是因為我們的犯罪成本越來越高，就乾脆找一些18歲以下年輕人去弄，是不是這樣？然後我也看到警政署到校園做了很多宣導，這到底有沒有效果？你們每一年都做滿多的，會不會你要宣導的人他早就蹺課了，他早就是失聯的學生了，你再怎麼宣導他也不會來？我不知道什麼原因，但是如果這個數據是正確的，請問黃部長你對於這樣的嫌疑犯年輕化的趨勢有什麼想法嗎？我們7月通過的打詐4法，對於成年犯的追捕會更嚴，跑不掉，會不會讓上述這個趨勢更增加？然後要怎麼辦？你有什麼想法？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，青少年激增這部分，我覺得基本上，一個就是我們在教育上真的要好好的加強，因為這個實在是不應該發生的事情，當然將來是希望從源頭就斷了，就是說希望不管怎樣，剛剛講就從網路這方面，因為年輕人很多會利用網路，我希望能在網路上多一些宣傳，多一些嚇阻的效果，讓年輕人知道說你從事詐欺，將來還是會受嚴重的懲罰。"],["魯委員明哲：好，回去再想一想，因為這個連教育部都有關係，想一想，想一想！可能是中輟生，不行喔！搞不好不是他們喔！他們到底在哪裡，到底發生什麼事，或者為何麼0到17歲會增加，你們去想一想，要怎麼樣去防制，新的媒宣費用不要蕭規曹隨，前年、去年怎麼去用，你真的要對症下藥。對於這些長輩，比較網路相對的弱勢，我們怎麼樣真的要透過組織、鄰里系統去接觸，我也希望黃執秘，你回去跟次長，這個是哪一位？你們的leader是誰？"],["黃執行秘書國師：目前是馬士元指揮官。"],["魯委員明哲：喔！好，你回去跟他講一下好不好？"],["黃執行秘書國師：好，是。"],["魯委員明哲：對症下藥，不要每一年的媒宣費用，甚至相關的防制費用，都投在相同的一個地方，要分散，這是我個人的建議，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，好，謝謝魯明哲委員，謝謝所有備詢的官員。好，接下來請邱若華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","游顥","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","陳雪生","徐富癸","洪孟楷","李坤城","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","郭國文","林月琴","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、\n內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:12:45","end_time":"2024-10-07T11:45:51+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155175","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","duration":765,"start_time":"2024-10-07T11:33:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1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繼續加油啦 因為這個我想"},{"start":534.184,"end":559.663,"text":"每一個委員都非常關心這個是草野的公事沒有什麼妥協的空間所以部長你要加油那另外我想我們在打詐這麼長的時間我們這麼積極的一些就是我們有一些作為、宣導這個也會有後遺症部長你也知道嘛也會有後遺症比如說我舉一個例子我有一個朋友他問我"},{"start":561.189,"end":587.566,"text":"他說他接到一個號稱銀行員的電話打給他說你的帳號裡面有一筆款是匯錯的你現在齁把這一筆款匯到我指定的帳號我的朋友沒有理他如果是執密跟部長你們會去按照電話指示去匯款嗎你們兩個會嗎報告委員我連電話都不接你連電話都不接非常好來"},{"start":590.238,"end":603.256,"text":"跟委員報告如果說有接獲到異常的帳戶匯入的話應該要先報案那確認這一筆錢的來源然後避免成為三方詐騙的另外一個加害人我覺得你們兩個也是"},{"start":604.597,"end":630.641,"text":"回答得不錯啦就是這個很簡單明瞭的告訴大家詐騙的模式當中形態當中一個很清楚的樣態啦好那這個現實我說這個叫後遺症是什麼我這個朋友啊他就是因為接到一個銀行員的電話告訴他說有一個人匯錯款到你的戶頭你現在把這個錢轉到哪裡去我朋友聽到他就直接把他掛了他認為這個就是詐騙我覺得我們的教育很成功"},{"start":631.564,"end":653.755,"text":"但是不久之後他就接到那個法院的傳票說人家告他侵佔告侵佔喔這個因為那個真的是匯錯款匯錯款那一個人喔就他匯錯款他跟銀行說我要追討回來銀行幫你通知要嘛通知不到要嘛就是接到電話那個我朋友就直接把他掛掉"},{"start":655.233,"end":679.052,"text":"那所以呢匯錯款的人他的錢拿不回來阿他就跟銀行說你可不可以給我他的資料我自己去找他要說他匯錯款銀行說不行這個資法不可以給他所以匯錯款這個人為了拿回他的錢怎麼辦他就討到警察局去告他還不告民事喔他直接告他侵佔直接告侵佔阿所以呢"},{"start":680.356,"end":708.842,"text":"告完侵占之後我朋友在家裡做什麼都沒幹什麼事情都沒做就忽然說他要出庭啊這詐騙的後...咱宣導詐騙的後遺症啦這個我在總質詢也提出來那個金管會彭主委說他們要好好的去研議這個影響有多大老民就不講了啦第一個錢齁錢匯錯的那一個人要不回來趕著要急著要拿一筆錢拿不回來被匯錯款的人躺在家裡也中槍"},{"start":710.424,"end":727.624,"text":"再來我們的警察機關要接受報案再來我們的檢察署啊這個今天那個師長又來嘛對不對我看了一下你們的資料那個叫做假侵佔最後都沒有是那個假侵佔我會逼雷齁20%"},{"start":729.833,"end":748.331,"text":"你看看一個案子這個都是我們要我很支持要打詐宣導反詐騙的那個後遺症所以這個要來解決不要讓民眾躺著也中槍警察負擔增加檢察官負擔也增加"},{"start":750.1,"end":763.073,"text":"所以這個法務部跟相關的部會我們一起來把這個事情做一個處理啦好不好經管會已經主導要來處理這個事情因為時間的關係啦今天就先問就跟大家問到這裡謝謝好好謝謝蔡昌"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:33:06 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11:45:51","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155175","gazette":{"lineno":659,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時33分）謝謝主席。請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["蔡委員其昌：請打擊詐欺指揮中心黃執行秘書。"],["主席：請黃執秘。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早、執秘早，今天還是以打詐議題就教幾個相關行政部門。部長，數位簽章法通過之後，在9月15日已經公告了，在上個會期已經通過了嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們除了9月15日已經公告一定規模之網路廣告平臺計算基準之外，也要把電子簽章法落實到打詐上，你覺得還要多久時間？"],["黃部長彥男：子法是11月……"],["蔡委員其昌：還有幾個子法沒有通過？"],["林副署長俊秀：有6個子法，12月30日都會公布，現在正在預告當中。"],["蔡委員其昌：12月30日？"],["林副署長俊秀：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：最慢12月30日、也就是今年年底啦！"],["林副署長俊秀：對，因為預告就要到10月21日了。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以這些一定可以達成、通過？好，通過這些子法之後，接下來對於這些平臺業者的要求，就要依照針對電子簽章法所公布的母法、子法來實施、落實，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對，就是要用這個技術作實名制的確認。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，那通過之後，到在實際市場上針對民眾可以接觸到的這些網路平臺，能用公權力要求必須透過電子簽章實名認證，這段時間還要多久？"],["黃部長彥男：子法公布、就是打詐專法子法一公布就開始實施。"],["蔡委員其昌：等一下，子法一公布之後？我舉個例子：如果你一公布子法，我開始要申請─因為我可能會在Google、Meta的FB下廣告嘛！譬如說下蔡其昌的政治宣傳─假設，而我下政治宣傳要申請電子簽章嘛！我要去找一家公司申請電子簽章，對不對？程序上是這樣嘛！"],["林副署長俊秀：還有其他的管道跟方法，包括OTP、包括FIDO……"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對，但是都要我們的辦公室去申請，不然我是下廣告的人，Meta公司可能就要檢查我是不是本人嘛！對不對？"],["林副署長俊秀：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：這些你們都準備好了嗎？也就是說，你們公布完之後、1月1日開始，我就可以直接找上述這些管道申請、認證我就是蔡其昌本人？"],["黃部長彥男：對。我們當然會跟業者溝通，假設1月1日要開始實施，那業者事先就要公告，1月1日開始，廣告主要先辦好這些程序才能登廣告。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你們在公告之前就會讓大家開始申請，是嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，當然。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，你現在懂我的意思嗎？這點要先講清楚喔！"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯，當然是這樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：不要等1月1日到了，我們又要在交通委員會罵你們「你不是說1月1日開始就可以開始做了嗎？」，我的意思只是要把程序問清楚。"],["黃部長彥男：對，應該是如此，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：確定喔？好。","部長，關於剛剛黃健豪委員問到的網路詐騙通報查詢網，我們辦公室有幾個助理很認真地在檢舉。我跟你講過嘛！這是令人深惡痛絕的事情，他們常常截了圖就丟給你們、丟給所謂的網路詐騙通報查詢網，所以我們貢獻很多啦！我們還鼓勵更多人都來檢舉。我看了一下在這個所謂查詢網裡面的資料，把它做了一個整理─這也是你們整理的啦！我發現一個很驚人的事實，除非你們的資料有誤啦！從9月5日到10月4日，也就是從10月4日往前推30天嘛！竟然99.94%的詐騙統統發生在Meta系統！部長，這個有沒有誤？"],["黃部長彥男：跟我們一般的了解差不多。"],["蔡委員其昌：差不多嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對，如同剛剛講的，以詐騙的態樣，很多是從這個平臺進來的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我看了一下之後，覺得這家公司就等於臺灣詐騙平臺的溫床嘛！換言之，解決這家公司就可以解決掉99.9%的詐騙案子。"],["黃部長彥男：源頭、源頭。"],["蔡委員其昌：對嘛！是不是這樣，部長？"],["黃部長彥男：是源頭啦！比如說會導入一些私人群組……"],["蔡委員其昌：當然，也就是只要阻斷了它，就沒有後續，因為這裡是源頭嘛！是這樣沒有錯嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對，目前是這樣，但詐騙集團也會變化。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒關係，我現在不管它未來有什麼研發、創新啦！這些等以後再說。我只是說在現有30天的統計資料裡面，竟然一家公司──Meta就可以囊括99.9%，幾乎源頭都來自於它！部長，這恐怕不是喝咖啡的問題啦！對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：對於老是找Meta來喝咖啡，作為中華民國政府，我們有公權力，如果來源四散，對很多平臺業者都要一一找來溝通，那當然很複雜啦！但看起來只有一家欸！一家公司就佔99.94%、統統發生在這家公司！部長，有沒有更強硬的方法？譬如說可不可以乾脆視為它就是同夥？因為都是在你們公司發生的嘛！不然就是民眾辛苦一輩子賺的血汗錢被騙走了，這種公司要不要一併負責？不然至少也幫忙賠個百分之五十嘛！部長，有沒有什麼其他更積極的手法？不然，在電子簽章法實施之前，我看這個統計數據……執秘，我看了統計數據，詐騙數沒有下來嘛！還在持續增加嘛！"],["黃執行秘書國師：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：對不對？接獲的報案數還在持續增加嘛！"],["黃執行秘書國師：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以可不可以採取一些其他手段？我跟META公司無仇無恨，我只是對詐騙深惡痛絕，所以希望我們可以有一些更積極的手段，讓這些受害的人覺得我們政府有更好的方法、雷厲風行的手段，可以阻止在電子簽章法實施之前的這些詐騙。"],["黃部長彥男：委員剛剛講的沒錯，我們一切都是依法行事，在打詐專法通過之前，我們只能用道德勸說跟剛剛講的喝咖啡的手段，但在打詐專法通過之後，我相信罰款額度是夠的，因為可以罰到1億元，所以應該是有嚇阻的效果。不過剛剛委員講到法案可能可以立得更進一步，就是如果是因為某個平臺而造成損失，是不是平臺商也要負一些責任這方面，這個可以考慮。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長看起來就是一表人才，斯斯文文的，我都怕你火力不足，我看執秘感覺比較強悍一點，執秘是不是也參考一下，看看有沒有什麼其他的方法，這個99.9的占比實在是太離譜了啦！太離譜了，對不對？我看到這個數字嚇一跳啊！執秘有沒有什麼方法可以給主委建議一下？"],["黃執行秘書國師：跟委員報告，詐欺危害防制條例裡面就律定了很嚴格的處罰手段，第一階段是讓業者要落地，接下來是要能夠在源頭做自主管理，以臉書的現況來講，我們了解到只要是在還沒有預告以前，目前接獲到民眾通報的都有在24小時內就下架了，未來我們會做溯源的追查。"],["蔡委員其昌：好啦！繼續加油啦！因為我想這個是每一個委員都非常關心的，也是朝野的共識，沒有什麼妥協的空間，所以部長你要加油。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：另外，我想在打詐這麼長的時間內，我們有一些積極的作為和宣導，這個也會有後遺症，部長你也知道嘛，也會有後遺症。我舉一個例子，譬如我有一個朋友，他說他接到一個號稱銀行員的電話，告訴他說「你的帳號裡面有一筆款是匯錯的，你現在把這一筆款匯到我指定的帳號」，我的朋友沒有理他，如果是執秘跟部長，你們會按照電話指示去匯款嗎？你們兩個會嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我連電話都不接。"],["蔡委員其昌：你連電話都不接，非常好。"],["黃執行秘書國師：跟委員報告，如果有接獲異常帳戶匯入的話，應該要先報案，確認這一筆錢的來源，避免成為三方詐騙的另外一個加害人。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我覺得你們兩個也是回答得不錯啦！就是很簡單明瞭的告訴大家詐騙的模式當中、型態當中一個很清楚的樣態。那這個sense，我說這個後遺症是什麼？我這個朋友就是接到一個銀行員的電話，告訴他說有一個人匯錯款到你的戶頭，你現在把這個錢轉到哪裡去，我朋友聽到就直接把電話掛了，他認為這個就是詐騙，我覺得我們的教育很成功，但是不久之後，他就接到法院的傳票，說是人家告他侵占，告侵占喔！因為那個真的是匯錯款啊！匯錯款那個人跟銀行說要追討回來，銀行幫著通知，要嘛通知不到，要嘛就是接到電話的人比如我朋友就直接把它掛掉，匯錯款那人的錢拿不回來啊，他就問銀行可不可以給他我朋友的資料，表示要自己去追討，說他匯錯款，銀行說不行，這涉及個資法，不可以給他，匯錯款這個人為了拿回他的錢要怎麼辦呢？他就跑到警察局去提告，而且還不是告民事喔！他直接告侵占，直接告侵占啊！所以我朋友在家裡什麼都沒幹，什麼事情都沒做，就忽然被告知他要出庭，這是我們宣導詐騙的後遺症啦！這個我在總質詢也有提出來，金管會彭主委說他們要好好的去研議，這個影響有多大？擾民就不講了啦，第一個是匯錯那一個人的錢要不回來，趕著、急著要拿那筆錢卻拿不回來，而被匯錯款的人躺在家裡也中槍。其次是我們的警察機關要接受報案；再來是我們的檢察署，今天司長也有來嘛，我看了一下你們的資料，那個叫做假侵占啦！假侵占案的比例高達20%。我很支持要打詐啦，但是你看，一個案子喔，這些都是我們宣導反詐騙的後遺症，這個也是要來解決，不要讓民眾躺著也中槍，警察負擔增加，檢察官負擔也增加，所以請法務部跟相關部會，我們一起把這個事情做一個處理，好不好？金管會已經主導要來處理這個事情。因為時間的關係，今天就先問到這裡。謝謝！"],["主席（黃委員健豪代）：謝謝蔡其昌委員，謝謝部長。","我們接下來請魯明哲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","游顥","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","陳雪生","徐富癸","洪孟楷","李坤城","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","郭國文","林月琴","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、\n內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:13:40","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:09:28+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155174","委員名稱":"林淑芬","duration":820,"start_time":"2024-10-07T11:55:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4936782ef34f135deb87ccd4a11965e08acb5ac217a49bd2e2e8901a2d9d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審的報告不代表他們未來會出具的報告"},{"start":202.711,"end":214.036,"text":"他們是合意制而且要共識決而且出神的報告可能會被修正而且可能會被大幅修改而且可能會被再重新鑑定他們是合意制共識決在這裡你要求出神的意思去具名還是要求最後共識決的時候擔任主席的意思去具名"},{"start":225.441,"end":229.545,"text":"全體委員具名更好笑派一個代表更好笑這個委員代表出來他能代表誰只能代表他個人可是建立報告可能跟他個人意見不完全百分之百一致呢"},{"start":252.366,"end":255.049,"text":"當時衛福部就跟你講出去書面報告的鑑定連續還要到言辭說明鑑定報告他在辯論的時候還要再去造成作業上困難而且難有實意現在話又說回來了你們就覺得說"},{"start":268.543,"end":284.576,"text":"據名 要負責 要肯認這個證據力的真實性現在來了 我現在要問你 據名才敢講真話 就一切鑑定而言喔據名才敢講真話 還是不據名才能夠真正的玩 才能夠這個呈現真實 你覺得呢"},{"start":287.899,"end":307.813,"text":"跟委員報告齁具不具名是不是說講真話我想這個可以講因為具名其實是你要他有真實性而且要對他的證據力負責嘛而且要問責有法律責任嘛因為當事人可能有疑問對這個建立有疑問他有一個人可以請教的對象請教的對象那如果像以前請教的對象這句話聽起來像是有另一層意義"},{"start":313.237,"end":316.638,"text":"他說醫學分科及系彼此之間師生關係、同儕關係、朋友關係甚為熟人及時相往來。倘若建立一件書面報告具名,除非"},{"start":338.704,"end":344.848,"text":"均做有利於被鑑定醫師的鑑定．否則如做不利之鑑定．勢必又與社會網絡關係而拒絕從事鑑定．而無法釐清事實的真相其實他們在暗示雖然不應該這樣子但事實是應該要具名沒錯可是考驗著人性"},{"start":359.336,"end":369.678,"text":"這個人性上沒有醫師願意這樣做而且你們現在醫生會拒絕鑑定退鑑你們也去找了醫學中心你們也去找了醫學會問題是藍醫學中心醫學會 個別醫生機關機構沒有任何一個單位願意再幫你們做鑑定所以當時他們所講的其實就是目標方法"},{"start":387.922,"end":393.688,"text":"這個沒有辦法一致目標是對的但執行上是不可行的因為違反了他們的人性所以他們一再當時就跟你們講說報酬也不相當你叫他領一個車馬費然後要去給你跑法院那你叫他報酬相當對當事人訴訟當事人來講成本也不能負擔"},{"start":410.845,"end":421.277,"text":"所以他在跟你們講 修208條的時候你要新增第三項 前兩項規定 其他法律另有規定則依其規定但是這樣也不會解決的 來 這件事請問你們現在家中無大人了 我問你們啦"},{"start":427.185,"end":430.788,"text":"你不修法的話,不修法的話,要怎麼解決?"},{"start":430.788,"end":437.274,"text":"現在沒有醫生要監聽,醫學會也沒有,醫學中心也沒有,個別醫師也沒有,醫學會也沒有,整個審理程序停擺,你們告訴我怎麼解決?你們放了火,司法院放了火,現在跟你們沒關係,因為法務部不會去搜,他們沒辦法跟你們去審理。"},{"start":452.968,"end":461.858,"text":"現在事不關己啊司法院擺爛啊從5月到現在沒有辦法進行審理擺爛然後法務部也沒關係反正這個東西是衛福部的責任"},{"start":468.98,"end":488.578,"text":"衛福部也 衛福部不是沒修欸 衛福部修了什麼 你知道嗎所以你是代理秘書長 但是你做副秘書長還寫專題了衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部的醫療法那個98條的第二項授權就那個一省會的這個組織會議的這些的規定"},{"start":490.68,"end":499.998,"text":"沒有,他修的是施行細則啦施行細則,修這個我跟你講,修了這個施行細則有用的話他現在不用繼續推薦"},{"start":502.318,"end":526.741,"text":"他修這個給醫生看 醫生還是不願意他說這個相關的鑑定的資料文件應依政府諮詢公開法第18條第1項第5款規定限制公開或不予提供其鑑定書的內容由司法或檢察機關依法定程去提供這不知道在修什麼 我也看不懂那跟你們現在刑事訴訟法有漢格之處怎麼辦"},{"start":535.647,"end":555,"text":"現在他修了知行記者也無解他也沒有人要做那現在訴訟要不要進行啊?訴訟要不要進行啊?我想我們會跟議審會跟衛福部我們進一步的你不要繞跑了你們的你們是誰?廳長?刑事廳長?"},{"start":559.208,"end":563.973,"text":"他說了你們,你們是誰?是你嗎?你要負責嗎?你有沒有申請要回去當法官?有"},{"start":568.616,"end":577.358,"text":"目前沒有啊那未來一定要是回到什麼未來未來11月1號以後新任的院長還是男產沒有院長一個代理院長權力的正當性就問號了代理院長權力的正當性問號如果在代理院長只在找一個秘書長他的正當性更是問號加問號欸是不是是不是"},{"start":594.261,"end":617.71,"text":"在野黨杯葛 我要講的是 院長喔 我不講大法官啦 院長、副院長難產是1月1號以後 正當性有問題 而這種問題也沒辦法解決人民的權利就在那裡 不斷地 不斷地被擱置在那裡 審理程序無法進行要不要修法 怎麼修法 沒有修法要怎麼解決 庭長你來表述一下意見"},{"start":621.589,"end":638.555,"text":"謝謝委員的指教在這之前我們有跟醫事室那邊有討論過我們能派我們的組合法官到醫事室那邊跟醫診會的委員講重點怎麼解決那這部分可能要做進一步的再做溝通因為醫診會那不要修法沒有修法可不可以解決"},{"start":640.055,"end":658.844,"text":"我們有一些相關的鎮定人的禮遇措施包括他可以用過科技方法來做結問這個方式可以包括避免他被漏洞這樣子你有問過衛福部醫生會願意嗎這不然我們還會再去做溝通事實上我們已經溝通了好幾次了因為這個醫師的鑑定他是專業人士其他別人也是專業人士包括醫事師是鑑定他是專業他是法定的鑑定激動現在不專不專業不要講這麼多第一個"},{"start":674.19,"end":683.832,"text":"你講的這個溝通還有其他有專業人士可以鑑定這一回事不存在第二個當你說要溝通的時候你們在那裡跨日費時當事人的權益一天拖過一天已經拖了快半年了300多件未來還要增加幾件"},{"start":696.855,"end":701.318,"text":"在上面的權益,你們修了一個法有沒有可能再修法?有沒有可能需要再修法?你有沒有覺得很荒謬?剛修了一個法,放了一把火,讓訴訟當事人的權益不保,然後你說好我再來彌補,我再來修法"},{"start":720.649,"end":733.299,"text":"現在是遭令有錯細改無妨嗎?所以董事你為什麼要一意孤行?為什麼都不聽人家的?現在就這樣搞到雞飛狗跳?對不對?"},{"start":737.637,"end":753.485,"text":"現在大家都亂跑 沒有院長在野黨 我跟你講主席 我是建議我不想有大法官但是院長、副院長、人事統一權不要像其他在野黨講的說要過的機會等於零要過的機會等於零整個司法院會停擺秘書長沒有 沒有院長代理院長的權利正當性沒有然後整個像這種"},{"start":763.622,"end":788.416,"text":"製造了問題以後沒有辦法問題沒有辦法解決問題然後整個政策上的決定沒有人可以擔當的起來所以秘書長也要跑了再一個秘書長也要跑了在一個新的立法院正式通過的院長產生以前那個秘書長都是都是沒好我們大家這屆也沒好夠不可以回家而已啦所以我是覺得說在野黨外呼籲主席"},{"start":789.577,"end":817.192,"text":"我們就好好地審他的院長、副院長的人事其實呢林算好嗎?還有政治可以問責嘛大家覺得政治問責的機制可以存在對不對?這樣子下去你叫司法院來,審預算叫林何人來都不好,他們這些人都不會擔當不負責的,也沒有權力負責的所以是真的是很荒謬啦好啦我知道時間到了,謝謝"},{"start":819.401,"end":819.774,"text":"林淑芬"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:55:48 - 12:09:28","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155174","gazette":{"lineno":781,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時55分）謝謝主席，請司法院代理秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩代理秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：秘書長，我在上個禮拜總質詢談到刑事訴訟法第二百零八條的修法，不曉得你們司法院有沒有注意到這件事情？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：就是鑑定的程序。"],["林委員淑芬：停擺。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：刑事訴訟嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：對，停擺，現在醫療糾紛的鑑定在所有審理程序都停擺。有300件送到醫審會要作鑑定，被退回50件，而且還有250件也即將要被退回，所以整個審理程序都停擺，影響了當事人的權益。這把火是司法院放的，可是現在沒有人覺得要緊欸！沒有人在乎！更好笑的是，這個社會上最菁英的兩大勢力──法界和醫界在惡鬥！你們法界修了法，硬是要叫人家具名，醫界則表示不屑做、不願意、不理你，你能怎麼樣？可是犧牲了當事人的權益欸！秘書長，現在這個要怎麼解決？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，在鑑定上，像醫審會屬於機關鑑定，而機關鑑定依照現在訴訟法的正當程序要求必須具名，且必要時必須出來說明，這是法律上的正當程序要求。當然我們理解醫審會方面有一些……"],["林委員淑芬：不要講這麼多，我就問你啦，因為修法是你們做的，而且在2023年修法以前，在2019年和2020年當時就要修了，而且還開了公聽會，衛福部很清楚地在公聽會上表示，也具體地行文給你們，指出他們對於第二百零八條裡面規定要具名，還有在審判中應到庭言詞說明鑑定報告等有不同意見。至於所執理由，當時衛福部也跟你們說了，就鑑定程序而言，醫療糾紛的鑑定具有高度專業性和複雜性，本部為達成客觀性、公正性和專業性的鑑定本質，醫審會的委員組成有普遍性跟專門性。而且他們請來醫審會鑑定的人都是各醫學中心或是各領域裡的專業人士，他們是做初審，研提初步的鑑定意見。可是你知道嗎，醫審會不是初審的醫師寫了報告就定案了，你知道他們是怎麼出具報告的嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：初審委員並不具名，最後是由鑑定會的委員……"],["林委員淑芬：我是要跟你講，初審報告不代表他們未來會出具的報告。他們是合議制、要共識決，初審報告可能會被修正、可能被大幅修改，而且可能會被重新鑑定。他們是合議制、共識決欸！你是要求初審醫師具名，還是要求在最後共識決的時候擔任主席的醫師具名啊？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：以我的理解，應該是由最後確定者，因為初審只是初步的……"],["林委員淑芬：那最後確定者是誰？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：應該是委員會。"],["林委員淑芬：在合議制下，最後確定的是誰？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：由全體委員具名的話，如果他們派一個代表出來是可以的。"],["林委員淑芬：全體委員具名好笑！派一個代表更好笑！這個委員代表出來，他能代表誰？只能代表他個人。可是要是鑑定報告跟他的個人意見不完全、不百分之百一致呢？所以我才說，當時衛福部就跟你講，出具書面報告的鑑定人須簽名，辯論的時候還要再去言詞說明鑑定報告，造成作業上的困難，而且難有實益。","現在話又說回來了，你們都覺得具名是因為要負責、要肯認這個證據力的真實性，但是問題來了，我現在要問你，就醫界鑑定而言喔，是具名才敢講真話還是不具名才能真正地呈現真實？你覺得呢？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，具不具名是不是能判斷講真話，我想可以討論。具名其實是在將來他們有……"],["林委員淑芬：你要真實性，而且要他對證據力負責嘛！而且要問責、有法律責任嘛！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為當事人可能有疑問，對該鑑定有疑問，要有個人可以請教或有可以請教的對象。如果是像以前……"],["林委員淑芬：「有請教的對象」這句話聽起來像是有另一層意義。好，不要緊，無非就是希望呈現真實嘛！對不對？對啊！我現在就問你，講白一點，衛福部在公文裡寫得很白欸！說醫學分科極細，彼此之間師生關係、同儕關係、朋友關係，甚為熟稔且經常相往來，倘若鑑定意見書面報告具名，除非均作有利於被鑑定醫師的鑑定，否則，如作不利之鑑定，勢必囿於社會網絡關係而拒絕從事鑑定，而無法釐清事實的真相。其實他們在暗示啊！雖然不應該這樣，事實是應該具名沒錯，可是考驗著人性，人性上，沒有醫師願意這樣做。而且你們被醫審會拒絕鑑定、退件後，也找了醫學中心、醫學會，問題是醫學中心、醫學會的個別醫生、機關、機構，仍沒有任何一個單位願意再幫你們鑑定。所以，當時他們所講的其實就是目標與方法沒有辦法一致，目標是對的，但執行上是不可行的，因為違反了他們的人性，所以他們當時就一再跟你們講。而且報酬也不相當，你們叫他只領一筆車馬費，就要跟你們跑法院，但若要報酬相當，對於訴訟當事人來講，成本也不能負擔啊！所以他們在跟你們講，修第二百零八條的時候要新增第三項，除了前兩項規定，其他法律另有規定者，依其規定，但是這件事也無法解決。","秘書長，你們現在家中無大人了，對於這件事情，如果不修法的話，要怎麼解決？現在沒有醫生要鑑定，醫學會沒有、醫學中心沒有、個別醫師沒有、醫審會也沒有，整個審理程序停擺！你們告訴我怎麼解決。你們放的火、司法院放的火，現在跟你們沒關係，因為法務部無法起訴，也就沒辦法送到法院審理，現在事不關己啊！司法院擺爛啊！從5月到現在沒有辦法進行審理，這是擺爛。法務部也覺得沒有關係啊！反正這個東西是衛福部的責任。衛福部不是沒修欸！衛福部修了什麼，你知道嗎？雖然你是代理秘書長，但修法是你當副秘書長的時候，衛福部也修了啊！他們說要修法而且也修了，修了什麼？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：醫療法第九十八條第二項，是授權醫審會組織會議的規定。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，他們修的是施行細則啦！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：對。"],["林委員淑芬：但我跟你講，修這個施行細則有用的話，現在就不用繼續退件。他們修這個給醫生看，醫生還是不願意。修正條文指出「……及鑑定相關文件、資料，應依政府資訊公開法第十八條第一項第五款規定限制公開或不予提供；其鑑定書之內容，由司法或檢察機關依法定程序提供。」這不知道在修什麼，我也看不懂，而且跟你們現在的刑事訴訟法有扞格之處，怎麼辦？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想，醫界認為個資法用到這個訴訟程序的……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！現在不要講那麼多，他們修了施行細則也無解，因為沒有人要做。那現在訴訟要不要進行啊！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：這部分……"],["林委員淑芬：訴訟要不要進行啊？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們會跟醫審會、衛福部進一步溝通。"],["林委員淑芬：你都要落跑了！你說的你們是誰？廳長？刑事廳長，他說你們，那你們是誰？是你嗎？你要負責嗎？你有沒有申請要回去當法官？有？"],["李廳長釱任：目前沒有，未來應該是要回到審判……"],["林委員淑芬：未來？要是11月1日以後，新任院長還是難產、沒有院長，一個代理院長的權力正當性就成為問號了！當代理院長的權力正當性成了問號，代理院長再找一個秘書長，他的正當性更是問號加問號欸！主席、主席，關於在野黨杯葛，我在講的是院長，不是講大法官啦！若院長、副院長難產，11月1日以後正當性會有問題，而這種問題也沒辦法解決，人民的權利就不斷地被擱置在那裡，因為審理程序無法進行。要不要修法、怎麼修法、若沒有修法要怎麼解決？廳長，你來表示一下意見。"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝委員的指教。在之前我們跟醫事司那邊討論過，我們派主責的法官到醫事司跟醫審會的委員作一些說明……"],["林委員淑芬：講重點！怎麼解決？"],["李廳長釱任：這部分可能要再進一步做溝通，因為醫審會……"],["林委員淑芬：要不要修法？沒有修法可不可以解決？你們修了一個法，造成一個問題……"],["李廳長釱任：我們有一些相關的證人、鑑定人禮遇措施，包括可以透過科技方法詰問，這個方式包括可以避免他被肉搜……"],["林委員淑芬：若這樣做，你有問過衛福部，醫生會願意嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：這部分我們還會再去做溝通，事實上我們已經溝通好幾次了。"],["林委員淑芬：醫生會願意嗎？還要做溝通？要溝通多久？"],["李廳長釱任：醫師在鑑定上是專業人士，但其他人也是專業人士，包括醫事司在鑑定上也是專業，它是法定鑑定機構。"],["林委員淑芬：現在關於專不專業不要講這麼多，第一個問題是所有給衛福部鑑定的案子統統都準備退回，所以你講的溝通，還有其他專業人士可以鑑定這一回事不存在！第二個，當你說要溝通的時候，其實是你們在那裏曠日廢時。"],["李廳長釱任：我剛剛要講的是鑑定人不是只有醫師才是專業人士，其他方面也有其他專業人士。"],["林委員淑芬：你們在那裏曠日廢時，當事人的權益一天拖過一天，已經拖了快半年。已經三百多件，未來還要增加幾件？這些人的權益呢？你們修了一個法……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們會做進一步溝通，包含……"],["林委員淑芬：有沒有可能再修法？有沒有可能需要再修法？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為就像委員講的，如果修法可以解決，我們當然研議修法。如果是醫界的文化……"],["林委員淑芬：你有沒有覺得很荒謬？剛修了一個法、放了一把火，結果讓訴訟當事人的權益不保，然後你說再來彌補、再來修法，這樣是朝令有錯，夕改無妨嗎？所以當初你們為什麼要這樣一意孤行？為什麼都不聽人家的，現在搞到雞飛狗跳，對不對？啊！不是啦！現在大家都要落跑、沒有院長。","對於在野黨喔，主席，我是建議啦，我不曉得大法官的部分，但是針對院長、副院長的人事同意權，不要像其他在野黨委員講的要過的機會等於零。若是要過的機會等於零，整個司法院會停擺！現在秘書長沒有，沒有院長，導致代理的權力正當性也沒有，像這種情況，製造了問題以後，沒有辦法解決問題。然後，對於整個政策上的決定，沒有人可以擔當得起來，所以秘書長要跑了，再來一個秘書長也要跑了。在一個新的、立法院正式通過的司法院長產生以前，秘書長都是無效的，我們在這裡質詢也是無效的，只是狗吠火車而已啦！所以對於在野黨，我也呼籲主席，我就好好地審他們的院長、副院長人事。其實，人選好不好還有政治可以問責嘛！有政治問責的機制存在，對不對？否則這樣下去，審預算時要叫司法院來，但無論叫任何人來都無效，他們這些人都是無法擔當、無法負責、也沒有權力負責的，所以真的很荒謬啦！","好啦！我知道啦！時間到了，謝謝。"],["主席：不好意思，謝謝林委員。","剛剛講的鑑定，在實務上真的非常重要，例如對死刑被告的精神病鑑定……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們會參考各種機制。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請傅崐萁委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}},{"dat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師長好剛才王定委員的質詢裡面有提到說軍售案上臺灣也沒有能力進行查核處理或者是了解異常的現象那黃師長剛才的回覆斬釘截鐵沒有辦法"},{"start":24.738,"end":34.09,"text":"但是我後來又聽到部長說可以靠歷史採購價格的分析是指過去有這樣做現在有這樣做還是未來會用這樣子的方式去做"},{"start":37.848,"end":54.705,"text":"報告委員所謂針對歷史價格的分析我們做的是在和美方簽訂合約之前沒有沒有市長你剛才說沒有辦法那是顧部長回應說可以靠採購的價格分析所以這個部分是不是部長可以簡單跟我們講一下這是未來我們要採取的作為嗎"},{"start":56.119,"end":83.238,"text":"對,我們在這個跟美方簽約之前的話我想我們會就這個收集國內外歷史的採購價格我們會來做一個分析然後來強化我們跟美方來預約的一個能力我們會來試圖來看看不過基本上來講跟站位司長講的也沒有抵觸因為他的內部因為我們簽約的是美國政府"},{"start":83.738,"end":99.64,"text":"美國政府跟這個廠商之間的一個成本的分析事實上是他們內部的一個資料我們只能夠就我們所理解的這個相關的國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析之後那跟美方做一個說明這樣子"},{"start":101.74,"end":126.326,"text":"這一次是美國防合約的這個審計局發現這樣子的問題那所以他們是內部稽查有發現這樣的問題那所以說跟我們讓我們知道那未來我想我們是跟美國政府再去打交道的那我們不是因為這件事情來去擔心說未來可能會面臨到的問題我們是想要知道說在我方我們可以的作為是什麼所以剛才部長說可以靠"},{"start":128.146,"end":128.446,"text":"重建這案"},{"start":152.992,"end":179.299,"text":"重建策案您講的是那個重建稍早有說空軍防空指揮部與美方先行簽約這件事情重建策案這個部分當然當時是緣起當然就是因為說這個裝備特別是導引的部分那已經借齊了那借齊的部分就要進行一個斷件的更換"},{"start":181.28,"end":204.995,"text":"那最主要是在程序上的時候那時候應該是哪個他先行發出這個發價書那這個程序上他這個發價書發出的時候沒有先行知會國防部這因此程序上產生了一個瑕疵那這個是程序上的瑕疵但是事實上這個重建車案要先編預算然後要經過立法院通過這個是還是必須要完備只是他當時他發出發價書的當下這個因為這個預算是超過了"},{"start":210.998,"end":213.38,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":234.198,"end":235.959,"text":"二、針對美國防工業會議成效及合作現況及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":255.809,"end":277.869,"text":"的會議裡面把它專案報告把它放入裡面去但是我還是希望就是說包含我們的蘇防國防外交委員他們能夠知道的內容因為我們都有派員去參與能夠不是只有說副部長在發表的演說的重點是什麼而是跟我們知道說我們未來的趨勢是什麼就是更實質一點的一些文件跟我們分享一下"},{"start":278.049,"end":305.081,"text":"你不用到文件就直接跟我們分享說在這次裡面趨勢是什麼台灣國防我們現在每次我們跟其他國會議員在討論的時候他們都會問到一個問題就是說那你作為國會議員現在台灣最需要的系統是什麼裝備是什麼服務是什麼那這個東西我在今天的專案報告裡面我看到說非常大的標題但是一些細部的這些項目我們還是希望說未來能夠給我們讓簡報給我們讓我們更能夠理解"},{"start":307.702,"end":323.974,"text":"這樣的狀況因為隨著我們地緣政治台灣的地緣政治的這個局勢是越來越險峻那再加上這個供應鏈的狀況所以當然我們跟美國之間的合作是越來越重要包含這個烏克蘭的戰爭以壓衝突等等這些武器的庫存等等"},{"start":324.815,"end":354.127,"text":"美國一個國家是沒有辦法足以面對三個不同的區域上面的衝突的所以我們自己的這些產業鏈供應鏈都必須要被除但是我們同時又很仰賴對美的軍售所以說現在已經累積的金額已經205億美元所以如果能夠爭取到美國的軍售品項這台生產那當然是可以某種部分來減緩軍售延宕的問題這些在台美的工業相關的討論有沒有在包含在裡面"},{"start":356.399,"end":378.287,"text":"這次確實有討論,因為剛剛的報告裡面也提到了,是有涉及到這個部分。但是具體的、詳細的項目,因為這是一個公開的報告,所以我們跟美國國防部的官員或者相關的官員所具體討論的這個內容的這個部分可能"},{"start":379.287,"end":380.168,"text":"美國的方面呢﹖"},{"start":400.467,"end":416.192,"text":"根據這個吳克蘭的經驗他認為說在地的自主能量的生有具有這個能量來自主生產這是一件很重要的事情因此他特別重視在無人載具的這一塊那所以才會"},{"start":417.893,"end":418.033,"text":"好,謝謝部長。"},{"start":444.52,"end":463.625,"text":"會談裡面有病人的會議當然這些就可能比較不方便說出來但是在一些細節上面說我們需要什麼樣的這樣子的服務我們現在目前供應鏈台灣的優勢跟我們的缺失在哪裡哪些是我們可以透過跟美方的合作來去增進的我想這一些部分是未來可以來去談的"},{"start":466.406,"end":491.408,"text":"剛才提到的這個不管說無人機也好或者是這個其他的相關的這些做法我看軍用無人機的這個臺灣適合的參入的市場已經有達到170億美元所以說現在我們加入美國的工業已經不是只有軍方講軍方的事情而已它是有長大的商機在裡面可是我們的中小企業不管是說你說這些材料或者是說零件重要的部品"},{"start":492.228,"end":514.55,"text":"還是有遇到一些挑戰嘛這些挑戰當然首先是資安風險嘛這個我們有沒有辦法符合CNNC的資安的這個認證機制還有台灣廠商的能力跟意願我們的廠商或許是中小企業他願不願意長時間大規模大產量的去生產符合這樣子的供應鏈的做法"},{"start":514.77,"end":524.937,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續"},{"start":544.626,"end":567.374,"text":"．協助廠商引進這個設備來擴大產能還是更多的單一窗口協助中小企業跟美方接下還是針對國防產業的關稅減免不知道部長針對這個部分有什麼樣的意見跟看法現在出席的部分當然就是說我們跟國科會經濟部還有說法部我們建立一個平台那這個產業呢它規模現在"},{"start":571.616,"end":572.236,"text":"委員：陳冠廷委員：陳冠廷"},{"start":600.869,"end":621.169,"text":"國防部答應,我們的需求在平時的階段,我們的訂單就只到這個程度為止。然後後續怎麼辦呢?所以這個整個供應鏈要能夠形成。那這樣供應鏈能夠形成,它才有那個意願,然後願意擴大它的產能。"},{"start":625.452,"end":642.026,"text":"這樣的持續性的部分就是美國事實上也看得出來所以他才會提出這個黨路供應面的這個部分那所以我們一方面講白一點就是說國防部要協助來根據我們的作戰需求來幫忙這些產業"},{"start":643.587,"end":657.798,"text":"那另外一方面透過跨部會的一個協助來給他進行補助進行研發那另外我們要輔導他們能夠盡量通過CNNP的認證然後另外呢我們要想辦法就是說這個供應鏈的這個供應鏈的這個生態系要能夠建立起來這樣那才有持續性"},{"start":664.924,"end":691.794,"text":"謝謝部長其實你講到這個生態系那在我們的民雄航太園區最近剛好我們中科院院長也有來到我們辦公室有談到那什麼生態系的做法我還是很肯定中科院它特別是在我們的園區裡面會設置一些大型的測試的場所這些大型的測試場所它可以應用的範圍就是讓這一些廠商中小企業也好它能夠省去一大部分的投資在R&D上面因為它已經有完整的測試場"},{"start":692.794,"end":719.24,"text":"所以規劃能夠某種程度對軍工產業共通的這樣子的測試的場所我想這是在過去在美國也有嘗試過那也就是我下一個問題可能會談到的就是DIU的運作DIU其實也不是只是一個所謂的小組他是也是要打造整體的生態鏈所以在DIU的部分裡面我還是要強調他們還包含可以租借國家的實驗室所以他是"},{"start":720.28,"end":748.235,"text":"你現在想像的不是一個小組而已他是在應用美國整體國家的各個不同的部門的國力那我還是要請教那我們知道美國的DIUS尋求技術成熟程度是到1到3的部分可是我看到我們國防部的創新小組所尋求的是7到9的成熟科技我想請教為什麼我們跟他的不同的地方為什麼要做這樣的區分為什麼我們跟他們在這地方不同"},{"start":749.937,"end":770.752,"text":"我想應該 委員應該要 我們DIU的這個部門美國的DIU應該也不是1到3那就是1到3不好意思 我們這有經過他們的那個是屬於DAPA的這個部門您的資訊上面DIU他們trial不管是這一個readiness他們就是1到3那我們的話是針對"},{"start":772.233,"end":772.994,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情"},{"start":790.612,"end":791.653,"text":"謝謝院長。那我就要了解了。謝謝。是。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:51:31 - 12:05:03","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":"155173","gazette":{"lineno":574,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時51分）謝謝召委，我們請部長。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：請顧部長。"],["陳委員冠廷：還有戰規司的黃司長。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好、司長好。剛剛王定宇委員的質詢提到，臺灣對於軍售案有沒有能力進行查核處理或是瞭解異常的現象，黃司長剛才是斬釘截鐵的回答：「沒有辦法！」但是我後來又聽到部長說可以靠歷史採購價格的分析，這是指過去有這樣做？現在有這樣做？還是未來會用這樣的方式去做？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，所謂針對歷史價格的分析，我們做的是在與美方簽訂合約之前……"],["陳委員冠廷：司長，剛才你說沒有辦法，但是顧部長說可以靠採購的價格分析，因此部長能否針對這個部分簡單說明，這是未來我們要採取的作為嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：對，在我們與美方簽約之前，我想我們會蒐集國內外的歷史採購價格進行分析，強化我們與美方議約的能力，我們會試圖做看看。不過，基本上與戰規司長所講的也沒有牴觸，因為我們簽約的對象是美國政府，而美國政府與廠商之間的成本分析，事實上是他們的內部資料，我們只能就我們所理解的相關國內外歷史採購價格加以分析之後，再與美方做一個說明。"],["陳委員冠廷：這一次是美國國防合約的審計局發現這樣的問題，也就是他們的內部稽查發現有這樣的問題，所以才讓我們知道。我想未來我們也還是要與美國政府打交道，所以我們並不是因為這件事情而擔心未來可能會面臨到的問題，而是想要知道我們可以有的作為是什麼？因此，剛才部長說可以靠美方自己的稽核也好、或是靠我們自己進行的歷史採購價格分析也好，我想這個都是我們可以同時並重的。因此，關於剛才王委員質詢的部分，部長提出的講法應該可以讓司長參考一下。","另外再請教，空軍防空暨飛彈指揮部與美方先行簽約，這是美方告知我們、或是我們自己主動發現、或是媒體記者發現之後再告訴我們？"],["顧部長立雄：重鑑測案？你講的是那個重鑑測……"],["陳委員冠廷：今天稍早有提到空軍防空指揮部與美方先行簽約的這件事情。"],["顧部長立雄：重鑑測案這個部分，當初的緣起是因為這個裝備，特別是導引的部分已經屆期了，屆期的部分就要進行斷件的更換。最主要是在程序上，那時候應該是先行發出發價書，在程序上發價書發出的時候，沒有先行知會國防部，因此在程序上產生了一個瑕疵。這個是程序上的瑕疵，但事實上這個重鑑測案要新編預算、要經過立法院通過，這個還是必須要完備，只是當時發出發價書的當下，因為這個預算超過了十億元以上，應該還是要先報國防部，以上是就我現在的瞭解。"],["陳委員冠廷：瞭解，反正瑕疵在未來就更正即可，也不是什麼我們無法改變的事情。"],["顧部長立雄：後來整個作業文件就有補正。"],["陳委員冠廷：只要把整個流程完善就可以了，我們內部能夠掌控的就在內部改進。","接下來，今天還有提到與台美國防工業研討會會議成效相關的部分，我想現在已經有制度化的一些對話機制，包含上半年在臺灣舉辦的台美國防產業論壇，以及下半年在美國舉辦的美台國防工業會議，我認為這是一個非常重要的軍事平台，也很高興今天能特別將它放入這次委員會的專案報告裡面。但是關於我們國防及外交委員能夠知道的內容，因為我們都有派員去參與，我還是希望不是只有副部長發表演說的重點是什麼，而是讓我們知道未來的趨勢是什麼，也可以與我們分享更實質一點的一些文件，也不一定是文件，甚至可以直接與我們分享，這次的趨勢是什麼。每次我們與其他國會議員討論到臺灣國防時，他們都會問到一個問題，身為一個國會議員，現在臺灣最需要的系統是什麼、裝備是什麼、服務是什麼？關於這個東西，我在今天的專案報告中看到非常大的標題，但是一些細部的項目，還是希望未來能夠有簡報給我們，讓我們更能夠理解。","因為我們臺灣地緣政治的局勢越來越險峻，再加上這個供應鏈的狀況，當然我們與美國之間的合作是越來越重要，包括烏克蘭戰爭、以阿衝突、這些武器的庫存等等，美方一個國家是沒有辦法足以面對三個不同區域上的衝突，所以我們自己的這些產業鏈、供應鏈都必須要備足。但是我們同時又很仰賴對美的軍售，現在累積的金額已經達到205億美元，因此如果能夠爭取到美國的軍售品項在臺生產，當然是可以某種程度減緩軍售延宕的問題，請問這些有沒有包含在台美工業的相關討論裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：這次確實是有討論，剛剛的報告也提到是有涉及到這個部分，至於具體的詳細項目，因為這是一個公開的報告，而我與美國國防部官員或相關官員具體的討論內容可能……"],["林局長文祥：屬於閉門會議。"],["顧部長立雄：屬於閉門的會議，所以我想詳情的部分可能不太適合公開說明。但是我現在能夠說明的，特別是涉及到無人載具的部分，美國方面根據烏克蘭的經驗，它認為在地具有能量自主生產是一件很重要的事情，因此它特別重視無人載具的這一塊，所以商務部才會率26家過來。這個不是商務部單一部會的決策，我想這是他們跨部會的決策，所以納進他們整個國防工業鏈的一部分，這是相當具有政策性的意義。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。在會談裡面有閉門的會議，這些當然就比較不方便說出來，但是在一些細節上面，譬如我們需要什麼樣的服務？就目前的供應鏈而言，臺灣的優勢與我們的缺失在哪裡？哪些是我們可以透過與美方的合作去增進的？我想這些部分都是未來可以談的。","剛才提到無論是無人機也好，或是其他相關的作法，關於軍用無人機，臺灣適合參入的市場已經達到170億美元，所以現在我們加入美國的供應鏈，已經不只是軍方的事情而已，它是有強大的商機在裡面，但是對我們的中小企業而言，無論是材料或零件、重要的部品，還是有遇到一些挑戰。首先當然是資安風險，我們有沒有辦法符合CMMC的資安認證機制？此外，還有臺灣廠商的能力與意願，我們的廠商或許是中小企業，它願不願意長時間大規模、大產量的生產符合這個供應鏈的作法，這個也是有風險啊！他們要不要擴廠、他們要不要增聘人員以符合美方的資安要求，確保我們clearance有辦法達到美方的要求，這些其實都是需要大量的資本去完善它。因此，我想請問部長，其實也不只是國防部而已，我們對臺灣軍工產業的廠商能夠針對這些部分提供什麼樣的協助？譬如貸款、協助廠商引進設備擴大產能、或是有更多的單一窗口協助中小企業與美方接洽、或是針對國防產業的關稅減免，不知道部長針對這個部分有什麼樣的意見及看法？"],["顧部長立雄：現在初級的部分當然就是我們與國科會、經濟部及數發部建立一個平台，在這個產業的規模現在不大的情況之下，它需要一些研發的補助，我們就透過經濟部及國科會相關可以支援民間的預算給予補助、進行研發。剛剛委員確實也點出了問題，譬如它必須要有持續性的訂單，坦白講，沒有持續性的訂單，如果只靠國防部單一的來源，而我們在平時階段的訂單需求就只到這個程度為止，後續怎麼辦呢？因此，整個供應鏈要能夠形成，它才有那個意願擴大它的產能，事實上，美國也看得出來，才會提出打入供應鏈的部分。講白一點，我們國防部一方面要協助，根據我們的作戰需求來幫忙這些產業，另外一方面是透過跨部會的協助，給予它進行研發的補助，而且我們也要輔導他們能夠盡量通過CMMC的認證，還要想辦法讓這個供應鏈的生態系能夠建立起來，這樣才有持續性。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。既然你講到這個生態系，關於我們的民雄航太園區，剛好最近中科院院長也來過我們的辦公室談到生態系的做法，我還是很肯定中科院特別在我們的園區裡面設置一些大型的測試場所。這些測試場所可以應用的範圍就是讓這些廠商或中小企業能夠省去一大部分在R and D上面的投資，因為它已經有完整的測試場，所以規劃某種程度能夠讓軍工產業共通的測試場所，我想過去在美國也有嘗試過。","我的下一個問題可能會談到的就是DIU的運作，其實DIU也不是一個所謂的小組，它也是要打造整體的生態鏈，因此，針對DIU的部分，我還是要強調，它還包含可以租借國家的實驗室，所以它並不是你現在想像的一個小組而已，而是應用美國國家整體各個不同部門的國力。我還是要請教，美國的DIU是尋求技術成熟程度1到3的部分，可是我看到我們國防部創新小組尋求的是7到9的成熟科技，我想請教我們與他們不同的地方，為什麼要做這樣的區分？為什麼我們與他們在這個地方不同？"],["顧部長立雄：美國的DIU應該也不是1到3。"],["陳委員冠廷：它就是1到3，不好意思，我們是有經過他們的……"],["顧部長立雄：那個是屬於DARPA的部分。"],["陳委員冠廷：您的資訊上面……DIU他們trial不管是readiness或……就是1到3，而我們針對的不一樣，但不一樣不代表是錯的，我只是要知道為什麼不一樣。一方面可能是因為我們國科會有研究，民間大學針對技術的基礎研究……"],["顧部長立雄：我們的資源不是像美國那麼充沛，我們必須要快速籌獲這個部分。"],["李院長世強：我們1到3的部分是透過我們與經濟部的學研中心計畫，讓各大學的學研中心做1到3的readiness，我們希望尋求的是產業界能夠發展4到6的部分，7到9再由國防部來投入。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝院長，那我就瞭解了，謝謝。"],["李院長世強：是。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，部長請回。","接下來我們請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:06:10","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:04:06+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155172","委員名稱":"洪申翰","duration":370,"start_time":"2024-10-07T11:57:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493cd6901fd3e56bafa02bf54ec90cbbd08b5ac217a49bd2e2e653194305ab1278e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.805968750000002,"end":12.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.345343750000001,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.54659375,"end":26.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.38534375,"end":39.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.97409375,"end":44.867843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.17159375,"end":49.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.01471875,"end":122.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.79659375000001,"end":124.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.77096875000001,"end":128.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.65221875,"end":138.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.38471875000002,"end":155.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.17534375,"end":157.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.81221875,"end":164.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.01784375,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.38034375,"end":179.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.73284375,"end":188.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.14909375000002,"end":190.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.20784375000002,"end":202.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.75034375,"end":206.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.66159375,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.22659375,"end":207.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.50909375,"end":210.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.59284375000001,"end":224.04659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.41784375,"end":234.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.52159375000002,"end":238.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.97659375,"end":241.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.37284375000002,"end":258.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.33221875000004,"end":276.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.63846875,"end":270.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.52784375000005,"end":311.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.13096875,"end":279.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.39784375,"end":299.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.42534375,"end":314.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.63159375000004,"end":337.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.24409375000005,"end":338.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.20596875,"end":340.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.87221875,"end":359.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.74971875,"end":343.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.58784375000005,"end":352.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.97471875,"end":360.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.49784375,"end":360.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.51471875000004,"end":363.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.53159375,"end":361.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.44659375000003,"end":365.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.29846875000004,"end":369.47534375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.207,"end":14.317,"text":"呃,請村部長跟杜次長好,請部長、次長"},{"start":22.047,"end":48.762,"text":"鄭部長跟杜市長那這段時間我們其實看到了很多在班班有鮮奶在執行上面的討論那其實關於這個學童奶的政策其實大家都知道這裡面有幾個最重要的政策目標那第一個當然就是學童的營養健康的問題那我們看到其實不管是衛福部或者是其他的在國際上面的建議"},{"start":50.069,"end":67.455,"text":"民眾每天應該要喝1.5到2杯的鮮奶那這裡面關乎到鈣的攝取那可是目前依據調查其實台灣有九成的民眾沒有達到這個營養標準所以這個是這個政策裡面其中一個重要的目標那另外一個目標當然大家剛剛都講到了"},{"start":68.015,"end":92.641,"text":"今年是我們弱農產業的升級準備年要因應這個紐西蘭鮮奶零關稅進口的這個問題所以農業部也提出了養牛產業全面升級的這個轉型計畫那針對第二個問題我想問就是現在如果我們從在第二個目標上面我們現在看到當然農業部有提出了一些供給端優化的做法"},{"start":93.021,"end":120.547,"text":"那可是現在確實也在拓展相關的需求端所以這個學童奶的政策其實也是在需求端的部分來尋求新的可能市長我理解沒有錯嘛對不對好市長那可是這一次現在在討論裡面呢這個之前你們陳部長來到我辦公室的時候有看我說他承諾說除了現有的鮮奶跟薄酒乳的差額補貼的政策也要來推動跟推廣這個小農鮮奶"},{"start":123.107,"end":138.13,"text":"來鼓勵跟推廣的機制進到我們這整體的制度裡面那大家為什麼這麼在意小農現在除了你對於品牌上面自己的喜好但這個喜好是主觀的喜好但一個很重要的點跟我們剛才講的第二個政策目標有關"},{"start":139.454,"end":166.432,"text":"今天如果我們在血統奶的政策都是由大的乳品牌來得標的話這些大的乳品牌也同時是相對有能力從國外進口包括紐西蘭或其他的國外進口乳的品牌大家會擔心這些乳品牌會不會把他手上的產能他灌到血統奶裡面他控下來的產能"},{"start":167.472,"end":190.584,"text":"就拉國外的貨來去填補來去替代那如果這個狀況發生的時候就會出現跟我們剛才講到第二個政策目標變成是衝突的破口這是大家擔心如果我所有的這個假設我學中乳的標案都由大乳品牌能夠拿去的話這會有這個擔心次長你覺得有沒有這個可能性"},{"start":191.817,"end":209.811,"text":"謝謝委員提醒其實在這個政策剛推動出來確實有很多可以再補強或是再強化的比方說剛剛提到的小農或甚至是羊奶業者這樣我剛才在強調的事情是說這不是誰的品牌喜好的問題這個是我們要回應到我們政策目標的問題"},{"start":211.836,"end":238.354,"text":"現在大家會提出有這種可能性的意思就是有可能跟我們一開始政策目標出現衝突跟抵觸這是為什麼我們一直在強調我自己的辦公室也跟農業部談過好幾次必須要重視怎麼讓小農的鮮乳更有好的條件進到這整個機制裡面可是我自己坦白說在過去一段時間裡面我自己覺得農業部在這個上面的做法有一點拖延"},{"start":240.011,"end":245.637,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":260.301,"end":273.072,"text":"應該這樣說,其實在整個政策應該確實是該更細緻化,比方說,弱農卻是不可能直接把他所產的奶直接供應給消費者,中間還是必須經過乳廠。所以我們怎麼來協調乳廠,在這個對於小農或是比較這個部分。市長經過乳廠這沒有問題,這沒有問題。"},{"start":279.617,"end":304.155,"text":"但我的意思是說到底這個乳廠跟乳品牌他是一個就是只是專門就是做國內的這個乳品生產的生意還是他同樣就像過去現在有很多乳品牌跟通路商他們是結合的他有能力去國外拉貨如果他拉貨進來去變成是對於國內的量的替代的話這就大家看不見就不希望的事情所以市長在這邊明確的承諾接下來會把小農鮮奶"},{"start":306.036,"end":310.137,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":330.382,"end":358.942,"text":"重點是不要跟現有的政策目標產生漢格或衝突這是我們擔心的事情這樣,可以同意嗎?是的,應該要這樣做政府長,我們也可以一起來配合嘛,對不對?這是一個大的政策目標當然希望大家一起共同來因應每個部會都應該有他的分工在這裡面去協助這件事情也不是只是農業部的事情,我一直在強調所以我們希望兩個部會都可以來配合包括來推動小農的鮮乳可以更大程度被來使用跟採購,可以嗎?"},{"start":359.963,"end":360.724,"text":"請部長次長會後再回"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:57:56 - 12:04:06","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155172","gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時58分）請鄭部長跟杜次長。"],["主席：請部長、次長。"],["洪委員申翰：鄭部長跟杜次長，這段時間我們看到了很多有關「班班有鮮奶」在執行上面的討論，關於學童奶的政策，其實大家都知道，這裡面有幾個最重要的政策目標，第一個當然就是學童的營養、健康的問題。我們看到，不管是衛福部或是其他在國際上面的建議，民眾每天應該要喝1.5杯到2杯的鮮奶，這裡面關乎鈣的攝取，可是目前依據調查，其實臺灣有九成的民眾沒有達到這個營養標準，所以這是這個政策裡面其中一個重要的目標。另外一個目標當然大家剛剛都講到了，今年是我們酪農產業的升級整備年，以因應紐西蘭鮮奶零關稅進口的問題，所以農業部也提出了養牛產業全面升級的轉型計畫。針對第二個問題。我想問，現在在第二個目標上面，我們看到農業部提出了一些供給端優化的做法，現在確實也在拓展相關的需求端，所以學童奶的政策其實也是在需求端來尋求新的可能，次長，我的理解沒有錯，對不對？可是現在在這一次討論裡面，之前你們陳部長來我辦公室時有承諾，除了現有的鮮奶跟保久乳的差額補貼政策外，也要推動跟推廣小農鮮奶，鼓勵並讓推廣的機制進到我們這整體的制度裡面，大家為什麼這麼在意小農鮮奶？除了對於品牌上面自己的喜好，而這個喜好是主觀上的喜好，但一個很重要的點，這跟我們剛才講的第二個政策目標有關，今天如果我們在學童奶的政策上，都是由大的乳品牌來得標的話，這些大的乳品牌同時也是相對有能力從國外進口，包括從紐西蘭或是從其他國外進口乳的品牌，大家會擔心這些乳品牌會不會把它手上的產能灌到學童奶裡面？而它空下來的產能就拉國外的貨來去填補、來去替代？如果這個狀況發生的時候，就會跟我們剛才講到的第二個政策目標，就會變成是衝突的破口，這是大家所擔心的。假設所有學童乳的標案都由大乳品牌拿去的話，就可能會有這個擔心出現，次長，你覺得有沒有這個可能性？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員提醒，其實這個政策剛推動出來，確實有很多可以再補強或是再強化的，比方說剛剛提到的小農或甚至是羊奶業者它的量……"],["洪委員申翰：我剛才強調的事情是，這不是誰的品牌喜好的問題，這是我們要回應到我們政策目標的問題。現在大家會提出有這種可能性的意思，就是因為有可能跟我們一開始的政策目標產生衝突跟牴觸，這是為什麼我們一直在強調，我自己的辦公室也跟農業部談過好幾次，必須要重視怎麼讓小農鮮乳有更好的條件能夠進到這整個機制裡面，可是坦白說，在過去一段時間裡面，我自己覺得農業部在這個上面的作法有一點拖延，好像能量不足，以至於雖然部長當初、去年10月來我辦公室談說，應該要推動小農鮮乳的品牌、小農鮮乳的機制，但目前看起來，在現有的學童奶政策裡面，好像是沒看到啊！次長。"],["杜次長文珍：應該這樣說，其實整個政策確實應該更細緻化，比方說，酪農絕對不可能直接把他所產的奶直接供應給消費者，中間還是必須經過乳廠，所以我們怎麼來協調乳廠對於小農或是比較……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，經過乳廠的部分，這沒有問題，但我的意思是，到底這個乳廠跟乳品牌，它就只是專門做國內乳品生產的生意嗎？還是它就像現在有很多乳品牌跟通路商他們是結合的，它有能力去國外拉貨，如果它拉貨進來，對於國內的量變成是替代性的話，這就是大家不希望看到的事情。"],["杜次長文珍：沒有達到我們的政策目標。"],["洪委員申翰：所以次長能不能在這邊明確的承諾，接下來會把小農鮮奶的推廣跟鼓勵，明確的放到我們的採購機制裡面，可以吧？"],["杜次長文珍：我們來研究這一塊，看看如何公平的把它放進來。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我要提醒你，這其實是在落實你們部長跟我們的承諾，之前他就有來說過，而且我們也不斷地追，只是這段時間我們確實沒有看到農業部花很大的力道去落實這個部分，所以次長，我希望我們要把這個承諾做到，重點是不要跟現有的政策目標產生扞格或衝突，這是我們擔心的事情，次長，可以同意嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：是的，應該要這樣做。"],["洪委員申翰：鄭部長，我們也可以一起來配合，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["主席：洪委員，時間到了。"],["洪委員申翰：這是一個大的政策目標，當然希望大家一起共同來因應，每個部會在這裡面都應該有它的分工來協助這件事情，這不只是農業部的事情，我一直在強調，我們希望兩個部會都可以來配合，包括推動小農的鮮乳可以更大程度地被食用跟採購，可以嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：我們請部長、次長會後再回復，好嗎？謝謝洪申翰委員。","接下來我們開始處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案，共計6案。請宣讀。","一、","案由：有鑑於【班班有鮮奶】目前實際執行，因冷鏈配送及學校冷藏儲存問題，導致學生因為食安疑慮，選擇鮮奶意願低，而廠商無法直接配送至學校各班，更為方便配送節省運輸成本，而將保久乳一月份一次配送，造成學校及老師、行政人員工作壓力、存放負擔。為解決實務執行問題，回歸政策原意，減輕學校負擔，確保學生飲用到安全、衛生、營養的乳品，爰要求教育部及農業部共同研議於一個月內，比照弱勢學生餐券發放方式，與超商或賣場合作，以發放鮮乳券方式，讓學生可以一週二次自行至超商、賣場兌換、領取乳品。","提案人：萬美玲　　洪孟楷　　林倩綺　　柯志恩","二、","案由：有鑑於政府推動【班班有鮮奶】政策已變【班班保久乳】，實際上政府採購保久乳占比超過75%，鮮乳僅占23%，含鈣豆乳1%及無糖鮮乳1%。政策倉促上路，導致鮮乳運輸及冷藏、乳品分送至各班級等配套，無法完備，使學生及家長擔憂食安問題，而選擇保久乳。長期來看，無法有效幫助本土酪農業，與政策原意相悖，爰要求農業部及教育部於一個月內檢討相關執行狀況，精進乳品提供方式，以兼顧政策原意，確保學童飲用到營養、衛生、安全的乳品。","提案人：萬美玲　　洪孟楷　　林倩綺　　柯志恩","三、","案由：有鑑於學校校舍除了是培育國家幼苗，教師、學生上課及工作場域外，更是災害發生時，提供民眾避難之場所，攸關生命財產安全甚鉅，然台灣多數校舍於88年前興建，屋齡超過50年以上校舍高達2,226棟，屋齡40-49年亦有6,772棟，其屋齡老舊，除原結構設計不符耐震規定，既使補強亦不足以因應現今之天然災害，爰要求教育部應於年底前，重新研議提出「針對50年以上老舊校舍拆除重建由中央專款負擔之專案計畫」或提出「老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例，以特別預算方式辦理」，並於8年內完成全國老舊校舍拆除重建工作，以維護師生安全。","說明：","一、台灣處於地震帶上，校舍建物安全及耐震係數必須以最高標準對待。政府雖於88年921地震後，提高建築物耐震規範，教育部亦逐年推出專案計畫，編列預算，對老舊校舍進行耐震補強工程，然台灣多數校舍於88年前興建，屋齡老舊，原結構設計已不足以因應現今天然災害，加上台灣中小學校舍多是逐年、逐層，骨牌般搭建，在既有的老舊校舍上加蓋新建物，形成「老背少」導致逢震必災，光補強無法解決根本性結構問題。","二、根據國教署統計，全國高中以下學校，屋齡超過50年以上校舍高達2,226棟；屋齡40-49年亦有6,772棟；屋齡30至39年校舍，有8,875棟；屋齡29年以下則有9,354棟。","三、政府於111年後即不再推動專案計畫，編列專款進行老舊校舍補強或改建。據統計，政府6年來僅拆除重建763棟老舊校舍，不到50年以上舊校舍的35%、40年以上舊校舍的9%。","四、為避免師生長期冒生命危險於年逾50之老舊校舍內學習，爰要求教育部應於年底前，重新研議提出「針對50年以上老舊校舍拆除重建由中央專款負擔之專案計畫」或提出「老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例，以特別預算方式辦理」，並於8年內完成全國老舊校舍拆除重建工作。","提案人：萬美玲　　洪孟楷　　林倩綺　　柯志恩","四、","案由：","有鑑於教育部與農業部推動「班班喝鮮奶」政策倉促上路、配套不足，以新北市為例，為配合中央規劃，以7月份調查乳品品項，經統計新北市212校（含附幼）約22萬名學童之乳品需求，每月鮮乳需求約15.5萬瓶、保久乳需求約157萬瓶。但經向農業部標案得標之3間廠商聯繫，因欠缺足夠乳品來源，僅能媒合鮮乳約10.4萬瓶、保久乳約84.6萬瓶，尚缺近77.5萬瓶。且廠商亦表達考量供應及配送量能等因素，部分偏鄉地區學校因配送因素無法訂購鮮乳而改為保久乳。","爰此，為確保「班班喝鮮奶」政策能讓全台各縣市學童能如期如質飲用，教育部與農業部必須確實調查掌握協調乳品量能，或以推動鮮奶兌換券方式學校附近超商等賣場通路合作，讓政策更便民，以利政策順利執行。","提案人：洪孟楷　　萬美玲　　林倩綺　　柯志恩","五、","案由：","有鑑於教育部爭取行政院老舊校舍整建350億元，進行114年先行辦理前期作業規劃（包括老舊校舍全面盤點建檔及設計規劃等），以及自115年至117年開始執行，仍然治標不治本，且無法全面針對全台屋齡超過五十年的2,200餘棟校舍完成校舍改善。","爰此，建請教育部規劃長期專案計畫，補助各地方政府逐年整建校舍，並持續針對各校所提需求補助校園修繕，以改善及維護全台校園環境、優化學習場域、保障師生安全。","提案人：洪孟楷　　萬美玲　　林倩綺　　柯志恩","六、","針對我國現有老舊校舍屋齡超過50年計有2,200餘棟，屋齡超過30年以上則有8,300餘棟，囿於台灣位處地震帶，且因氣候變遷導致極端氣候常使災情發生，學生就學與老師教學環境安全應以最高標準審視、以最快速度處理。","然2022年後，中央主管機關並無針對老舊校舍拆除重建有任何相關專案計畫，亦未編列相關預算以為因應。相較於政府對於都更危老建物之重視，更對國防武力及地方建設發展之急迫需求，近8年13次編列特別預算執行，面對未來國家棟樑，不該忍睹莘莘學子在半世紀老舊校舍內冒生命安全學習，應儘速完成全面拆除重建。","窮不能窮教育，列冊有案之老舊校舍已破萬棟，爰建請教育部應先統計所需拆除重建經費，並以編列特別預算方式於8年內完成之。","提案人：羅廷瑋　　柯志恩　　萬美玲","連署人：洪孟楷　　黃健豪　　林倩綺　　廖偉翔"],["主席：以上6案，主席宣告做這樣的處理，今天我們有6案，第1案、第2案跟第4案是跟班班有鮮奶有關係的；第3案、第5案跟第6案是屬於老舊校舍的臨時提案。我先來處理班班有鮮奶的部分，第1案、第2案跟第4案，就這3案提案委員跟各位委員有沒有意見？","好，先請張雅琳委員。"],["張委員雅琳：我對於發放鮮乳券，雖然這是一個研議，但是我有一個想要提醒的地方。因為我自己過去在食品產業待了非常久的時間，我知道在超商的上架費是要到35到40%的利潤，這對於小農要上架來說是非常困難的，因為他絕對不可能有這麼高的利潤。所以如果我們是發放鮮乳券，最後很有可能變成實際受惠的還是大廠，則我們原本的本意是希望可以扶植小農的這件事情可能就會沒有辦法執行，所以還是提供這個意見，供大家作為參考，謝謝。"],["主席：好，還有沒有哪位有意見？請陳培瑜委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。關於雅琳剛剛講的小農券是一個重點；另外一個我想要提醒的是，提案的寫法是「採購保久乳占比超過75%，鮮乳僅占23%」，我覺得要解決的應該不是用券去換，而是保久乳跟鮮乳在現場的發放跟孩子們的使用，還有廠商他們現在面臨的問題，我覺得這才是整個要去面對的困境，而不是用一個券的方法就想要取代。","而券的部分除了有上架費之外，我想要提醒寫這個臨時提案的委員，在此分享一個困境，目前我們學校中的班班喝鮮乳，採購的規格是195ml，其實也不是我們市面上看得到的、現有的規格。所以它既是特殊規格、特殊通路，然後又是特殊的預算，我覺得在處理這件事情上，用券的方式會有很大的困境。還有，很多偏鄉的孩子，他們不見得可以立刻有機會在那個時間內去便利商店把這個券換完，因此，我覺得也要考慮到偏鄉的困境，所以這個部分我也想要提醒教育部，就是在用券去換的議題上要多加謹慎小心。謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請郭昱晴委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：關於這個券的使用，我覺得有沒有可能最後其實這個券不會是嘉惠到學生本人，而是這個券會流到其他的家長手上，這個家長要怎麼樣去證明說我拿這個券，就因為那是我的孩子，難道是要帶戶口名簿？還是學生要去換的時候他要帶身分證？或者是他沒有身分證，他要帶學生證去兌換？有沒有可能最後這個美意也因為這個券而引發了其他的一些問題？之前其實包含所謂的餐券，也是有類似這樣一個狀況發生，所以可能要特別謹慎小心。"],["主席：接下來我們請洪申翰委員發言。"],["洪委員申翰：我是看到這幾個提案裡面都有提到鮮乳券，當然鮮乳券看起來是一個比較簡單操作的方式，可是我要補充的事情是，現在我們很多大的乳廠，其實都跟通路是結合的，這個大家心裡都知道。所以當大的乳廠跟通路結合的時候，一方面它會有旗下的本土酪農，但另外一手，它其實也是一個國外鮮乳的進口者，這是我一直要提醒的事情。如果接下來我們全部都用鮮乳券的話，很可能變成只有大的乳廠、乳品牌跟通路才能夠獨占學童乳的訂單。在這個狀況下，它很有可能把它旗下的本土酪農產能，就算它將其轉移到學童乳上面，可是它空下來的，原本要賣給業務通路的，即它原本要做業務用奶的部分，這些空下來的產能，它就跑去進口了，這就是跟我們剛剛在講的政策目標會有扞格的地方。所以鮮乳券的作法，雖然在操作面上看起來，行政部門的行政成本是最低的，可是可能造成跟我們政策目標會有衝突的問題，所以對於鮮乳券的作法，我覺得一定要非常非常的小心，甚至我覺得應該要避免剛剛講的這個狀況發生。這部分也許農業部會了解，但我覺得也要讓教育部理解一下，這個作法也許對教育部來說是最輕鬆的，可是這個作法做下去，會影響整體的政策目標，這是在這幾個提案裡面當我們看到鮮乳券時會讓人比較擔心的部分，所以還是必須提出來，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們再請陳秀寳委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主席。其實鮮乳券的發放，當然對行政人力來說，會覺得比較精省，但是我比較疑慮的是，在學校喝鮮奶，我們發給孩子們喝鮮奶，老師可以督促他們在生鮮的期間裡面把它喝掉，是看得到他喝掉，但如果是發放鮮乳券讓他去領的話，是不是真的是學童喝了？會不會他自己懶得喝，丟給哥哥喝或是丟給爸爸媽媽喝，孩子他自己反而沒有喝到這個鮮奶？如果是發放這樣子的券讓他們去領的話，會不會產生這樣的弊端？其實在執行上還是要考慮一下。"],["主席：好，謝謝。還有沒有哪位委員或是提案委員要發言？我在這邊講一下，因為我也是提案委員。謝謝大家，我們一起來提醒教育部，怎麼樣讓教育部在實施農業部的這個政策上面可以做到更盡善盡美，這個部分我自己有兩個提案，然後等一下孟楷有一個提案，大家可以看一下那個提案，就是希望教育部能夠研議，是不是可以多一個選擇，用券的方式來發放。","剛剛提到了小農，我覺得小農通路這個部分，當然我個人也覺得很重要，但是在這個政策上的主體，應該是我們的學生。如果能夠讓學生都可以很便利地喝到，每一個學生都可以喝到班班有鮮乳政策的相關乳製品，但是又不要造成第一線的老師非常大的壓力跟困擾，這個也是我們必須要考慮到的。因為農業部這個政策太倉促上路了，所以教育部實行起來，事實上有很大的壓力在，我想我們這個提案，也是希望能夠解決行政人員跟教師的一些壓力。","就像過去的營養午餐，各位委員在選區內一定知道，我們對於弱勢學童營養午餐的發放上，在寒暑假的時候，採用的就是券，至於會不會有一些弊端或一些瑕疵？當然是會有的，以前也曾經發生營養午餐券可能被爸爸、媽媽拿去買菸，然後孩子可能就沒有用到了，這也曾經發生過。但第一個，這樣的案例很少；第二個，大家也是可以去想辦法看看怎麼樣杜絕這個問題的發生，所以我們才說「研議」。今天就是在這過程當中，謝謝各位委員，我們把一些問題講出來，這個都可以提供給教育部作為研議跟檢討之用，但是若能夠用鮮奶券的方式，就是多一個選擇，在執行的時候，如果可以更細緻一些，我想這個案子也不見得就不可以，好不好？如果其他的委員沒有什麼意見，是不是請教育部來說明一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝主席以及所有的委員關心學童從鮮乳來補充鈣質跟蛋白質一事。確實在這個部分，用券來發放給學生，誠如我剛才也跟主席報告過，因為我們也擔心是不是能夠確實落實到每一個學生都能夠飲用；然後剛才也提到，這也衍生到小農的一個照顧以及它的一個規格等問題，我想這個部分我們同意來做一個更完整的研議。如果可以的話，是不是主席可以給我們更多的時間？提案寫的是一個月，但因為這也包括跟地方政府的一個協商、協作；還有到目前為止，有9個縣市已經簽了共同供應契約，所以到底是用每個月還是每一個學期來供應的契約，這都涉及到有一些契約是已經簽訂等問題，所以相對來說可能有一些複雜性，是不是能夠讓我們有更多的時間？但是在方向上，怎麼樣給學童更好的健康照護，我想這是我們要來努力的。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。我們現在就一個案子、一個案子來處理。","第1案，剛剛提到券的問題，大家有提出很多的想法跟看法，所以現在第1案的部分，部長您的意見就是希望研議的時間可以長一點是嗎？所以怎麼改？"],["鄭部長英耀：能不能把1個月變成2個月？"],["主席：好，這一案因為我是提案人，所以研議「1個月」改成「2個月」，我同意。其他的部分就沒有問題，對嗎？請洪申翰委員。"],["洪委員申翰：我自己是覺得，關於券的方式，就是去研議一下它的優缺點，我覺得這也OK，但我只是覺得不要綁死，只有著重在券的方式，應就很多不同的執行方式去評估它的優缺點，這是第一個。所以在第1案的部分，萬召委有寫到「比照弱勢學生餐券發放方式」，所以有沒有可能在這個研議裡面，也不只是券的發放方式，其他的可能性也包括在這裡面去做精進，第一個是這件事情；第二個，我必須說，大家在談到班班有鮮乳的時候，現在都被講成是教育部幫農業部在執行政策，坦白說，我覺得這樣說也不是很精準，因為當時2013年在簽的時候，農業部可能也沒有很想去簽臺紐貿易協議，但這是為了整體的經貿環境而去簽這個東西。所以如果當時是為了一個整體的經貿環境，其實每個部會就必須一起去面對這件事情並做因應，我覺得這樣比較有道理，反正我大概就是做這樣一個補充，但是執行方式上面怎麼樣做，不要只是聚焦在券的研議上，而是其他方式的納入，有沒有可能放到這個文字裡面，大家來做一點修訂，大概是這樣，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我想我們的發言就請針對該臨時提案，所以這個臨時提案，現在我們還是希望，因為這個政策太倉促上路，所以有很多的配套不足，產生這個政策現在幾乎是形同跳票，今天在我們委員會，不論藍綠的委員，應該都有這樣一個共識，我們當然希望這個政策可以趕快落實，所以大家才去想方設法。所以如果說發券這件事情是完全不可行的話，則我們對於弱勢的孩童，他們在寒假暑假的時候，為什麼就可以用券的方式發放？所以我想在這件事情上面，我認為發鮮奶券其實它是一個選項，所以我們還是請教育部按照券的發放方式，就這個選項能夠進行研議，如果教育部沒有辦法提出，說這完全是窒礙難行的，則我們就應該用這個方式來試試看，好不好？其他委員有沒有其他的想法？我想這個是我們請他們研議的方式。"],["洪委員申翰：「1個月」改「2個月」。"],["主席：好，那我們依據教育部的建議，把「1個月」改成「2個月」，給教育部更多的時間去做研議，這一案就照修正的案子通過。","針對第2案，因為現在幾乎都是保久乳，今天很多委員也都擔心這件事情，也就是沒有辦法幫助到本土的酪農業，而且也擔心當孩童習慣了保久乳以後，是不是未來會為國外更價廉的一些保久乳開了一個門、搭了一座橋，將來要他們回頭再去喝鮮奶會比較困難一點。所以我想請教育部去檢討執行的狀況，這樣子第2案有沒有意見？","我們先請張雅琳委員。"],["張委員雅琳：我提醒一下，因為還是會回到本土酪農業，其實跟第一個提案有關，如果都只有用券的方式來處理的話，很有可能就沒有辦法解決第2個提案的問題。所以是不是可以開放，不要只限於用券這個方式去思考，而是兩個提案一起合併來思考？"],["主席：我不太理解你的意思，可不可以再說明一些？"],["張委員雅琳：第2個提案裡面提到我們還是要幫助本土酪農業對不對？因為剛剛大家都提醒如果用券的時候，它可能會造成一些問題，例如上架費很高或是像洪申翰委員所提的那些問題，它會造成最後只有大廠才可以進去這些便利商店或是超商、賣場等等的，所以我想教育部在思考的時候，一定要解決本土酪農業的問題，而不是只有限於券這個方式。"],["主席：張雅琳委員，針對第2案，您建議具體要怎麼改？"],["張委員雅琳：如果它是跟第1案一起來思考……"],["主席：沒有，因為第1案我們剛剛已經修正通過，所以第2案您想要怎麼改？"],["張委員雅琳：我基本上就是希望我們在思考第1案的時候，可以有其他的選項啦！"],["主席：好，謝謝，張雅琳委員的意思可能就是提供給教育部當你們思考這件事情的時候要更周全、更廣泛一些啦，是這個意思嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：基本上就是多方思考。"],["主席：好，就是要思考更周全一點，這是張雅琳委員的意思。","還有沒有哪一位委員有意見？請陳培瑜委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想要針對這個提案請教教育部。因為這邊寫的是請你們去精進乳品提供的方法，除了作出檢討，還要兼顧政策的原意。可是就像我今天在質詢時所說的，如果我們的政策原意有兩個，一個是營養教育（食農教育），或者是支持國產鮮乳，用這兩個方法來看，所謂精進乳品提供方法應該面對的困境是老師們在現場的困境，還有酪農想要達到的目標，以及農業部跟教育部各自想要達到的目標。所以這邊的寫法我也想要建議召委，因為您也有提案，召委，你這邊的寫法要不要更精確讓教育部或者是農業部知道針對乳品提供方法，你希望他們兩個跨部會怎麼樣合作？因為這個絕對不會只是教育部的議題，有關跟鮮乳廠商簽約或者是執行配送的方法，如同今天很多委員提到，農業部有很重的角色在裡頭，所以工作是不是可以不要只有壓在教育部身上？雖然我們在教育及文化委員會。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，我想你可以再仔細看一下我的提案其實是要求農業部跟教育部，當然我們沒有辦法具體要求農業部，但是針對這個政策，教育部在檢討的過程當中，當然要橫向跟農業部開會去研議，所以這個案子其實也很單純，比較像剛剛張雅琳委員提的，就是我們要更廣泛、更周全，在一個月之內把相關檢討的執行狀況提出來，提出來之後，就可以作為這次質詢過後的問題點有沒有得到解答，你們在第一線做起來能不能更順手，所以其實是比較廣泛的希望教育部更周全地做檢討。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，還有另外一個問題我也想要提出來跟部會還有召委討論，就是你這邊的寫法是因為大家擔心食安問題，退而選擇保久乳。可是站在營養學家的觀點，或是站在我自己是一個母親，在協助我的小孩喝鮮乳或是保久乳的選擇，對我們來說都不是退而其次的事情。我覺得這個也污名化臺灣自己的國產鮮乳做成保久乳的廠商，我覺得這有污名化的嫌疑，所以在相關的字詞討論上，或者教育部或農業部，你們在對學校或是跟縣市政府討論的時候，我覺得這個論述要非常小心，因為我們必須要來看另外一個困境，就是鮮乳的冬天和夏天的產量跟價格是不一樣的。所以如果大家要用歧視的眼光來看保久乳，甚至讓教育部跟農業部將這個作為跟地方教育局處或者是相關單位的論述，我覺得會讓保久乳的廠商或者是選擇喝保久乳的家庭會覺得自己背負著一個很奇怪的罵名，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，我覺得農業部要好好聽一下剛剛陳培瑜委員所講的。我想說污名化太沉重，沒有人要污名化保久乳，但農業部你們提出來班班有鮮乳，這個是你們提出來的嘛！關於班班有鮮乳這件事情，如果是你們優先提出來的政策，也是要給家長當時的一個選擇，甚至於可以說那個時候不是選擇，而是給予。現在有了第二選擇，我們認為是第二選擇，如果認為「退而選擇保久乳」看了有點不太能接受，那我們就把它改成「進而選擇保久乳」或「次而選擇保久乳」都可以，看大家希望改哪一個字，但是這個農業部可能要稍微注意一下。","接著請郭昱晴委員，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主席。我剛剛在質詢的時候有提到，就是聽起來感覺保久乳已經變成是退而求其次才去選擇。其實保久乳它的鈣質或者是蛋白質的營養成分，有很多營養專家都講不會因為殺菌的過程而減少，它的來源同樣都是來自於生乳，就是跟鮮乳一樣，但鮮乳在冷鏈運送的過程或者是時間放久的過程，它可能還會有一些食安的狀況。至於保久乳，就像我們家小孩保久乳也喝，鮮奶也喝，他也不會因為喝了保久乳，就不回去喝鮮奶，也不會有這種狀況。所以我在想說，「班班有鮮奶」我們把它改成「班班有牛奶」會不會好一點？或者是「班班有鈣質」或者是怎麼樣都可以，因為我們還有豆漿對不對？所以「班班有鮮奶」這個部分我們可能稍微修改一下，我覺得也可以做個參考啦，以上。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員，我想這樣子啦，主席也接受大家的建議，我把文字改成……因為這個政策其實是倉促上路，我們從「無法完備」開始看起，「無法完備，使學生及家長擔憂食安問題，而選擇保久乳」，我把那個「退」字拿掉，好不好？我希望在檢討的時候，教育部跟農業部也可以好好參酌剛剛郭昱晴委員的建議，如果你沒有辦法做到班班有鮮乳，那你要怎麼改？怎麼告訴大家你的班班有鮮乳要改變？我覺得我們都可以接受一併在一個月內的檢討裡頭，你可以把它提出來，這樣好不好？教育部這樣子有沒有其他的問題？有沒有其他意見？部長，一個月內把它提出來可以嗎？而且可能必須一個月喔！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們來配合檢討。"],["主席：對，跟農業部多討論一下。各位委員，我就把那個「退」字拿掉，「退」字大家不喜歡，我們就把它拿掉，這樣好不好？還有沒有什麼意見？主席都會好好參考一下，謝謝。那麼第2案就修正通過。","第4案應該就跟剛剛一樣，所以在文字上有沒有需要做調整？因為洪孟楷委員提案他也沒有押時間，所以是不是就按照剛剛第1案的處理方式？部長，這一案應該沒什麼問題，因為我們剛剛第1案已經討論過了，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想因為跟第1案基本上的精神是一樣的，所以是不是就鮮奶這個部分……"],["主席：兩個月內你研議出來好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是選項之一，然後就跟第1案一樣，這樣的一個……"],["主席：好，那第4案我們就照案通過。","接下來一案一案來處理，我們先處理第3案，有沒有其他委員有意見？請陳培瑜委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。這個不是我的提案，只是我很好奇、我想知道，如果我有講錯，再請大家糾正。就是最後一段提到針對老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例，要以特別預算的方法辦理，而且還要在8年內完成全國老舊校舍拆除重建工作。我想問一下教育部，特別預算應該是行政院這邊才可以提出來的吧，教育部本部應該是不可以提出特別預算。再來是8年內的部分，就算針對這個提案，行政院真的提出所謂的特別預算，那也怎麼可能在8年內完成全國老舊拆除重建？這個部分我可不可以也請教育部說明一下，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝陳委員的關心。確實，這個特別預算已經超乎教育部的權責，我想這個是不宜的。另外是有關8年內的部分，我們知道老舊的教室事實上每年……，假設今年它是50年，8年後還是會有50年的校舍，它事實上是隨時間在滾動，更重要的是它是不是安全，我覺得這才是考量的重點。所以這個部分是不是也能夠請委員再斟酌一下，謝謝。"],["主席：部長，請問一下，你是要請哪一位委員斟酌什麼事？"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席，因為不是我的提案，我只是針對那個提案的內容請教育部說明，有關特別預算那個……"],["主席：我們要給部長一點時間，因為部長還在需要學習的階段。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以應該不是我斟酌，應該是請提案委員斟酌。"],["主席：我也不知道部長他要請誰斟酌這件事，但我想我提醒一下。針對任何一個委員的臨時提案，我相信部裡面一定有跟您討論過，如果剛剛在討論的時候，您這裡都表達說沒有問題，就是照案辦理的話，您可能應該是有很仔細看過案子了。當然這個案子裡面寫的是「研議」，所謂「研議」並不是要您一定非得照這樣去執行，這是第一件事。第二個，如果剛剛您已經表達沒有任何意見，突然間您的答法又比較寬廣一點，再來還有一點，如果您有意見，您要怎麼修改，其實剛剛可能案子要送上來，這一點我也跟委員會所有的委員及部長報告，過去行之有年，我們對臨時提案的處理方式是這樣的，我想署長在邊上也可以提醒一下，就是我們過去的處理方式大概是這樣。所以我想部長是不是要提一下，就這個臨時提案您希望怎麼去做修正？我是希望我們可以來研議，研議這個專案儘可能不要去排擠到其他預算，假設有一個專案，或者是能夠建議行政院用特別預算的方式來做，當然是一筆專案來做，我想會比較好。部長，您覺得哪裡窒礙難行？要怎麼修正？您可以把它提出來，我們再來討論。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟主席報告，是不是能夠請彭署長說明？"],["彭署長富源：謝謝召委。部長剛才指導我這邊說有一些細節，也連同以前的工作經驗來做個回復。在倒數第二行這裡，因為委員剛才也稍微提到這是研議，就研議而言，歷來在教文會這邊是給行政部門有一些空間，不是說一定強制要怎麼樣，歷來教文會是有這樣的共識，因為這裡有寫「研議」。剛才召委也特別提到，大家知道不是教育部獨立能夠來處理這個案子，事前也提醒我們是不是就在倒數第二行「提出」的後面寫上「與行政院相關單位合力推動」，大概加這樣的字眼。主要還是因為前面有「研議」，然後也知道不是教育部自己能夠獨立處理，所以加「與行政院相關單位合力推動」。"],["主席：署長，你要不要從「重新研議」開始？你把它唸完，大家會比較清楚，好不好？"],["彭署長富源：好，我唸一下：重新研議提出引號內容或提出與行政院相關單位合力推動之」，不知道這樣可以嗎？"],["主席：請林宜瑾委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝主席。我想如果比較簡單的話，是不是就把最後兩句話刪掉就好？就是說「重新研議『提出針對50年以上……』或提出『老舊校舍……』」這樣就好了，就是後面「以特別預算方式辦理，並於8年內完成全國老舊校舍拆除重建工作」這兩句話把它刪掉，會不會就相對簡單？反正是研議嘛，也就是有提到說是用中央專款專案的方式來研議這個方式，至於後面這兩句用特別預算的方式就把它刪掉，這樣不曉得主席覺得可不可以？"],["主席：我想這樣子好不好，我們再做這樣的修正看看，因為我們都是希望就是真的有需要，我們以安全為考量、防震為考量，其實年限可能是次之。其實我們今天都有提到有三十幾年的房子在地震完還是出現大狀況。還有五、六十年的房子，就像今天部長談的，它可能有保存、有記憶等等，所以年限這件事情我想是可以作為次之的條件，最重要是安全，所以我想我們改成「重新研議或提出」，然後引號內就像剛剛署長講的，你可能等一下再重講引號內的內容，但是「並於8年內完成全國老舊校舍拆除重建工作」這一句我覺得我可以把它刪掉，這樣好不好？","署長，請你把你剛剛加在「或提出」的中間……"],["彭署長富源：就是剛剛召委這邊已經把最後一句先拿掉嘛……"],["主席：就是「或提出」那個地方可能再補一下。"],["彭署長富源：對，這邊先拿掉，然後接著是補剛剛講的，也就是知道不是教育部自己能獨立處理，所以加上「與行政院相關單位合力研議推動」。"],["洪委員申翰：第一個是我覺得要在這邊跟教育部去評估特別預算的方式，坦白說，這是行政院的權責，這不是教育部可以在這邊處理的問題，所以我覺得「以特別預算方式辦理」這些字眼要不要就拿掉？拿掉「以特別預算方式辦理，並於8年內完成全國老舊校舍拆除重建工作」，也就是年限的部分也拿掉，特別預算跟8年的部分拿掉。按照剛剛署長的講法是說第二個括號「老舊校舍拆除重建條例」這邊是研議，並與行政院或其他部會相關單位合力，就是把特別預算拿掉，因為在這邊討論要不要用特別預算很奇怪啊！"],["主席：我覺得一點都不奇怪啊！這個就是各個委員大家想方設法，替老舊校舍、全國的學生去想辦法，我是這麼想啦，就是說如果要於8年內去完成這件事情，我覺得的確是有壓力，而且會有很多的變動因素，這一點我非常同意把它拿掉，我覺得沒有問題。所以我們是不是可以把它改成在倒數第三行開始，重新研議提出引號內的計畫，並與行政院相關單位研議以老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例，以特別預算方式辦理，就這樣子。而且這個修正也是教育部提出來的，看起來這樣子研議也沒有窒礙難行，如果教育部覺得可以這樣子去處理，那各位委員有沒有其他的想法？","請林宜瑾委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：不好意思，主席，就如同洪申翰委員所說的，因為特別預算確實不是可以由教育部來發動的，所以由教育部來研議要跟行政院合力弄特別預算的事情也很奇怪。我知道提案人的好意，也期待是不是有一筆錢好好來做，對老舊校舍拆除有一些專案的預算跟計畫。可是特別預算確實是一個專有名詞，所以我還是認為「特別預算」這個字眼把它拿掉會比較妥適。"],["主席：請麥玉珍委員，大家充分討論之後再決定。"],["麥委員玉珍：我看到這邊有說「或提出」，我覺得這應該是召委建議有其他的經費啦，沒有說要把它……因為這裡有寫「或提出老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例，以特別預算方式辦理」，這裡寫「或提出」，我覺得是讓教育部多一個選擇，你沒有錢，你是不是可以用其他的去做這件事情？我覺得這個放上去對教育部是有幫助的啦！沒有說定時你要做哪一個預算，你可以用其他的，如果是不足的話，我覺得這個意思應該是這樣子，這對於教育部應該更有幫助，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員，請羅廷瑋委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝其他委員所提出的，雖然這是行政院專門需要以特別預算來編列，不是教育部的權責，但是我想在這個地方把文字列上「特別預算」，來當教育部強而有力的後盾，讓教育部能夠跟行政院反映，我覺得這是一個很好的依據。大家都是立意良善，都是為了孩子、為了學童，我也希望能夠繼續保持「特別預算」這些文字在上面。當然麥玉珍委員有提到「或提出」三個字，我們只是加強了其他的方案，讓教育部在原有的部分如果不行，能夠再來「或提出」特別預算的爭取，我想這個部分不管怎麼樣都希望能夠把這些文字繼續留在上面，所以我支持召委的說法。"],["主席：謝謝，還有沒有哪一位委員要發言？如果沒有，那麼我來整理一下。我想大家第一個共識就是針對老舊校舍，甚至於有危險的，我們要全面的盤點，然後不管是拆後重建或者是修繕等等，我想這個大家都沒有意見，那錢從哪裡來？我想這上面寫得很清楚，我覺得我的臨時提案其實寫得很寬鬆。也就是說，我們要研議這樣的專案怎麼做；或者如果前面一個案子不行，我們可以提出來；然後現在再加入剛剛教育部所提的「與行政院相關單位再研議用特別預算方式來做」，我個人認為這個臨時提案應該沒有強制要求這樣的修繕或者是拆後重建，一定要用特別預算來做，所以不是這樣，可能就是研議。然後「並於8年內完成」這件事情，我也認為可能會有很多其他工程上的變數，所以我就把這句拿掉。針對剛才幾位委員的意見，我這樣子說明不曉得大家可不可以接受？教育部這邊有沒有問題？如果我們請你們研議，就是針對50年以上老舊校舍拆除重建由中央專款負擔的專案計畫來研議，或者你們可以提出來跟行政院相關單位研議老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例以特別預算方式辦理之，然後最後一行拿掉，就按照剛才署長所講的。"],["彭署長富源：跟委員會報告，其實剛才召委已經順了整個邏輯，委員們也給我們建議。首先在一開始講的那個研議，事實上，我們在8月8號也提了，那我們繼續一起來努力，但是如果後面個也是研議的話，個人是認為歷來教文會講研議，都還是保留行政單位去評估，沒有說那個就是一定要那樣做，剛才召委也再次講了嘛！所以它一方面有程序，二方面畢竟是研議，所以我們在事前跟辦公室或是相關委員討論的時候，有這樣的一個彈性，以及歷來教文會工作型態的默契，我們會來好好的評估，大概是這樣。"],["主席：好，我想就請各位委員讓教育部有更大的空間，他們針對各種方式研議出來之後，他們去執行，這樣好不好？"],["林委員宜瑾：不好意思，主席，我確認一下。剛剛您說要與行政院相關單位合力來研議，如果是向行政院……"],["主席：來啦，我跟你們講，你們真的太複雜了，我也不知道為什麼你們想那麼多？我把中文唸一次給大家聽，其實三句話之內不會有兩個「研議」啦，就是這兩個案子，你們看一下引號內的兩個案子，都是適用前面那個研議，就很清楚嘛！就是說我們請他們重新研議提出「針對50年以上老舊校舍拆除重建由中央專款負擔之專案計畫」或者是「老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例，以特別預算方式辦理之」，這兩個都是請他們要去研議，這就很簡單了嘛！下面還有一個「或提出」，但我把最後一個刪掉，這樣子中文各位應該很清楚了，好不好？"],["林委員宜瑾：不好意思，主席，因為第一段跟最後一段有重複的字眼，第一段也有8年……"],["主席：針對第3案，誰可以處理一下，把第一段跟最後一段我們剛才所闡述的文字把它寫清楚以後，我們再回頭來處理好不好？寫清楚以後，我們把它順一次，讓所有的委員確認每一個字以後再來通過，這個請教育部處理一下好不好？好，這就讓教育部去處理。","我們繼續處理第5案，第5案各位委員有沒有意見？請問部長，第5案有沒有意見？就是建請教育部規劃長期專案計畫，補助各地方政府逐年整建校舍，這一案應該還好吧，沒什麼問題吧？好，第5案就照案通過。","處理第6案，第6案提案人羅廷瑋委員有沒有要做補充說明？"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我也是寫8年，所以我想如果可以整合在召委的同意案的話，這樣好不好？就整合在一起。我想要拜託召委，如果討論我這一案我可以先撤掉的話，就是我跟你一起統一嘛！"],["主席：好，不然我們就把第6案跟剛剛的第3案併案處理，好不好？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，但是我有一個建議，就是說拜託……"],["主席：請說。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們現在不是正在寫重新研議提出「針對50年以上老舊校舍……」，所以30年以上的現在到底……剛剛有說不講50年，30年也有可能啊，所以「50年」這個數字是不是要下調為30年以上老舊校舍？而且我要再特別拜託就是「或無使照老舊校舍」，因為我們的選區有一些校舍是沒有使照的，那等於就是違建了，基本上它也有年限的問題，也是三十幾年，我覺得針對無使照的這些老舊校舍是不是也應該稍微關心一下？召委，怎麼這邊委員點頭，但你卻搖頭？無使照啊，違建啊，老舊校舍無使照是違建，對我們有安全疑慮耶！所以我希望能夠併案在你這裡，但是希望能夠增加這些，既然要研議，不應該只有50年以上，36年的花女大樓就已經震成危樓，然後我的選區忠信國小有無使照的校舍，現在沒辦法耐震補強，它只剩重建。"],["主席：好，我比較具體先處理一下。現在羅廷瑋委員同意把第6案併第3案處理，但第3案要再做更細緻的修正，原來本席提出來的是針對50年以上老舊校舍，但是羅廷瑋委員講的也有道理，因為現在RC是50年或是55年，磚造是30年，所以我想也就是以最基礎的標準30年來看，我同意把它修正為「針對30年以上」，因為30年以上就會包含50年了，這樣各位委員有沒有意見？我們一個一個來修，先把50修成30，各位委員都同意嗎？好，這個地方就把它修成30。請問教育部好了嗎？因為等一下還有很多委員要質詢。"],["彭署長富源：我稍微唸一下。"],["主席：好。"],["彭署長富源：就是在第3案第一段倒數第四行開始，「教育部應於年底前與相關單位研議」，「重新」是贅字，把它去掉，就直接變成「與相關單位研議提出針對30年以上老舊危險校舍……」，這裡加上「危險」兩個字，然後引號後有一個「或」字留著，但是「提出」兩個字去掉，因為重複了，然後後面有一個引號；然後在逗號之後「並於8年內……」這一句刪掉，直接接到「以維護師生安全」，這樣好嗎？兼顧大家給我們比較彈性、要好好的研議，二方面也是30年，但是也加上部長剛才提的老舊是要危險……"],["主席：署長，不好意思，我覺得你直接唸文字就好，不要再加其他的。"],["彭署長富源：這樣可以嗎？"],["主席：所以就是從這個案子的倒數第四行「教育部應於年底前與相關單位研議提出」，然後接引號內的文字，同時把50年改為30年，然後後面的「或提出」的「提出」刪掉……"],["彭署長富源：「老舊」後面要加「危險」兩字。"],["主席：好，「與相關單位研議提出『針對30年以上老舊危險校舍拆除重建由中央專款負擔之專案計畫』或『……』，以維護師生安全。」底下……"],["彭署長富源：最後的第四點，是不是容許我們跟幕僚單位再來作業？就照上面第一段的文字，這樣可以嗎？因為他的敘寫方式基本上是一樣的，我就不重複了。"],["主席：你把它唸完就好啦，就只有三段，為什麼做事要做一半？"],["彭署長富源：一樣的，倒數第三行「應於年底前與相關單位研議提出『針對30年以上老舊危險校舍拆除重建之專案計畫』或『……辦理』，最後一句去掉。"],["主席：好，所以你刪掉了你剛剛原本自己講的，就是「與行政院相關單位研議」是不是？你把這個刪了？因為我是呼應你之前說的，所以這個要刪掉？剛剛署長已經有重新說過了，引號內沒有動，就是只有把「50」改成「30」，「老舊」加「危險」，其他部分應該就照原來的文字，這樣各位委員有沒有意見？沒有的話，那我們就照修正後的文字通過。","因為後面大概還有16位左右的委員要質詢，我想是不是先休息5分鐘？好，我們休息5分鐘後再繼續質詢。","休息（12時53分）","繼續開會（12時58分）"],["主席：現在繼續進行質詢。請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葉元之","范雲","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張嘉郡","洪申翰","張雅琳","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","林月琴","吳春城","黃健豪","黃國昌","牛煦庭","徐富癸","羅智強","吳沛憶","高金素梅","李彥秀"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小\n學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國\n土管理署派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00016"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:05:02","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:01:07+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155171","委員名稱":"吳春城","duration":302,"start_time":"2024-10-07T11:56:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493af885c07e20812420e1b3eec0bde5d39b5ac217a49bd2e2ea4c7546c8cb28b6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.185343750000001,"end":12.754718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.771593750000001,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.20909375,"end":22.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.778468750000002,"end":23.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.57159375,"end":39.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.85346875,"end":29.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.28346875,"end":32.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.072218750000005,"end":33.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.34971875,"end":52.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.883468750000006,"end":54.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.82409375,"end":58.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.05971875,"end":65.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.24846875,"end":77.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.44909375,"end":84.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.97971875,"end":88.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.21534375,"end":89.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.23221875,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.97471875000001,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.20034375,"end":107.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.02596875,"end":117.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.90284375,"end":121.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.86846875,"end":125.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.10034375000001,"end":123.45471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.97346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基本上的確是 呃 比較 比較 比上一次是會有一些 比較嚴重齁 值得警惕的齁 對所以 就是嚴正以待 但是我們過去因為只公告 沒有想法那我們希望這次公告帶著想法 非常肯定這個主委這樣的想法齁"},{"start":139.676,"end":162.117,"text":"那這個我在總質詢的時候這個那個主委跑出來就假然後那個提出一個人口對策但是我看今天的這個國發會的整份報告書都沒有提到人口對策的問題其實我今天約了院長下午3點要跟他報告這件事我建議這件事就是"},{"start":163.358,"end":182.241,"text":"那我也跟陳時中政委提了這件事情那我們在上個禮拜五的中午其實我們我們中午是沒有休息啊這個諮詢的之後我們就在行政院開會把各部位都找來我們針對怎麼樣鼓勵鼓勵結婚到鼓勵生育到後面這一段但是因為為什麼要從人口政策來看齁"},{"start":183.302,"end":195.638,"text":"不是只有少子化的問題包括將來您講的中世代的問題包括未來整個消費人口的減少一整體性所以我們希望是一個人口的對策"},{"start":196.878,"end":223.666,"text":"所以現在當然是我來談的創世代政策一直談的它不僅是高齡的政策它也是全面政策現在行政院就有陳時中政委有一個創世代政策小組現在已經有13個部會加入這個小組了但是現在他們提出64個計畫但是基本上都是現狀的現有的政策缺乏前瞻性"},{"start":224.326,"end":251.917,"text":"那這個就在國發會就是規劃包括人口的這一個國發會可以幫幫忙嗎在這件事情上面其實我跟陳政委現在開始我們這個人口出來以後我們大概有多一點比較多的互動在這上面了那我們上次開會其實我們是他有邀請我一起共同主持所以我們會願意再多來看一下怎麼來協助所以呢因為"},{"start":252.837,"end":271.847,"text":"因為現在這個問題就是本來陳政委那邊他在領導的這個不過在上次以後你突然提出了人口政策以後現在就是有一點到底是多頭馬車但是目前現狀這個運作是不是可以請國發會先來協助就協助這個小組因為陳政委現在在領導的這13個部會的整合"},{"start":279.851,"end":280.092,"text":"需要國發會的規劃"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:56:05 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我們請部長"},{"start":10.809,"end":31.762,"text":"黃議員好部長好部長我們上禮拜我們委員會有排到彰化考察去看這個黑水盟那其實我覺得說我們以前都是只有看影片或者是照片那第一次能夠親自到現場去看親自去體驗我覺得這個"},{"start":36.084,"end":64.267,"text":"看到真的是還蠻驚訝的就是說這個黑水蒙它竟然可以將這個廚餘處理得真的是非常的棒那另外一個它還可以有那個污泥就是我們一些工業的那個污泥也可以透過這個黑水蒙來處理那我想請教就是說未來有沒有可能就是說因為我們知道說工業的不論是電子或者是一些紙"},{"start":64.867,"end":80.068,"text":"指葉所生產的那個算是廢渣也好或者是污泥那有沒有可能就是說環境部未來跟這些合作然後是朝向用這樣的一個生物的方式來處理"},{"start":81.574,"end":105.994,"text":"包括委員因為目前其實黑水蒙最好的還是廚藥的減量那廚藥的減量我們過去廚藥大概堆肥是比較多但是現在堆肥的使用量沒那麼的多那第二個就是養豬啦給豬吃然後用真主的方式做處理那目前我必須說黑水蒙在使用在廚藥的使用量裡面比例大概不到2%那這個其實在國外的案例是應該可以更多的"},{"start":106.354,"end":121.518,"text":"所以我們其實也在研議說如何讓這個黑水盟的產業能夠可以真的起來那我必須說他們經營的委員看到那家我也去看過那也非常的好但是還有一段這個瓶頸在那個地方那我們環境部會來想辦法能夠把這個產業能夠帶動起來是"},{"start":123.999,"end":149.02,"text":"如果我覺得說這個他處理廚餘的部分還不錯的話其實我覺得應該可以透過環境部跟各個地方縣市政府這個環保局應該去慢慢去推動是不是可以透過這樣的方式來處理廚餘的部分要不然其實之前之前很多我們的這個家裡面的這個廚餘有的可能就直接"},{"start":149.881,"end":149.901,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":167.87,"end":168.11,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":197.79,"end":197.95,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":213.861,"end":230.647,"text":"對委員提到的就是說如果污泥的話它因為它最後可以像這個油的話例如說未來可以做航空用油SAF它就是一個很好的這個東西所以我們是希望我個人是希望是說我們部內會來規劃一下把這個產業能夠動起來才可以解決我們各式各樣的問題我們會來推動"},{"start":232.148,"end":259.207,"text":"好那謝謝部長另外彰化縣在7月份就是有關這個垃圾的部分是用破帶的方式那剛剛一開始的時候當然民眾會還蠻反彈的可是在經過這個幾個月時間彰化縣政府的環保局也覺得說這個成效還不錯就可以垃圾量可以減到兩成左右那這個回收就是民眾做的這個"},{"start":260.808,"end":260.948,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":283.121,"end":284.844,"text":"我希望說未來針對我們的這個垃圾"},{"start":298.925,"end":298.945,"text":"委員會議長"},{"start":321.647,"end":323.247,"text":"我希望這些垃圾的這個堆置場你可以做到什麼樣的程度?"},{"start":351.533,"end":373.84,"text":"好第一個是三年內把這個露天裸露的解決掉這個委員我一定會如期的完成定期的跟社會大眾報告這個數字全部都會公開讓大家能夠看得到的那第二個呢源頭減量齁我會找網購業者或是外送業者來道德勸說大家都有社會的責任他們能夠提供更環保的餐具或更環保的這個作為來做這個事情"},{"start":375.3,"end":388.836,"text":"另外一個是我希望其實有一個全循環的經濟園區才可以幫台灣未來解決這個問題我們目前其實因為中央跟地方的權責其實卡得非常的緊我們希望未來能夠有一些突破才能夠解決這個問題"},{"start":391.278,"end":414.59,"text":"當然這個我們希望說能夠逐步去解決因為其實每個人每天生產的這個垃圾量其實有時候覺得還蠻驚人的有時候你在網路上購買東西它的包裝就是層層的包裝一個小樣的東西它可能用一個大盒子大箱子包裝然後裡面又用那個泡棉可能就又包起來"},{"start":415.831,"end":443.616,"text":"所以其實我覺得如果說舊部長講的可以跟這些網購業者有一些共識那是不是可以把如果是比較小樣的東西它的包裝就不要包得這麼大我覺得應該可以朝著這個方向去做源頭減量那我想請教部長就是說我們過去一直在追蹤就是我們的這個資源循環促進法那預計什麼時候要送到立法院"},{"start":444.096,"end":468.819,"text":"保委員因為我上任的時候的確也聽過這個法案的簡報但是我也看到裡面的一些問題跟盲點所以目前我們跟我們的團隊在討論是應該還是回到廢清法跟資源循環促進法兩法一邊是修正一邊是等於是兩個再重新再修正那這次我們比較不一樣是我有跟我們團隊說我們籌組了一個8加N的聯盟產業界一起來談不要我們環境部官方來談"},{"start":469.48,"end":470.621,"text":"我們希望明年可以送到大院來"},{"start":486.34,"end":499.151,"text":"最後一個問題我想請教因為彰化在我的選區有兩個廠一個是廢棄物的堆置廠正在申請另外一個可能就是"},{"start":500.452,"end":500.552,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":526.255,"end":551.757,"text":"如果是又在水源頭 如果是在水源頭的話所有的民眾都是抗議 那我也希望就是說部長在你的任內我們也希望能夠看到這些垃圾焚化爐燒出的剩下一些底渣 那這些底渣未來要怎麼現在有的是固化處理 那像這樣子的話你又要找一個地方去掩埋我覺得"},{"start":552.638,"end":578.507,"text":"這個也是好像也是對整個環境的一個二次傷害而且當地的民眾也非常的反彈所以我希望說針對這部分我也希望這個環境部這邊也要去正視如果說所有的東西都可以從源頭去減量的話那也許我們可以就不需要這麼多的這個掩埋場對那我希望說部長這一件事我也希望你能夠正視"},{"start":579.207,"end":580.329,"text":"好,謝謝委員,我們會來助議,謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:45:16 - 11:55:01","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155170","gazette":{"lineno":862,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時45分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["彭部長啓明：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，上禮拜我們委員會有排到彰化考察，去看黑水虻。其實我們以前都是只有看影片或者是照片，第一次能夠親自到現場去看，親自去體驗，我覺得看到這個還蠻驚訝的，這個黑水虻竟然可以處理廚餘，這真的是非常棒。另外，還有污泥，就是我們一些工業的污泥，也可以透過黑水虻來處理。我想請教，我們知道工業的，不論是電子或是一些紙業所生產的廢渣或者是污泥，有沒有可能環境部未來跟這些合作，然後朝向用這樣的生物的方式來處理？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實黑水虻最好的還是廚餘的減量，那廚餘的減量，我們過去廚餘大概堆肥比較多，但是現在堆肥的使用量沒那麼多。第二個就是養豬，給豬吃然後用蒸煮的方式處理。目前我必須說，黑水虻在廚餘的使用量裡面，比例大概不到2%。這個在國外的案例應該可以更多的，所以我們其實也在研議，如何讓這個黑水虻的產業能夠可以真的起來。我必須說他們經營的很好，委員看到的那家，我也去看過，那也非常的好，但是還有一段瓶頸在那個地方，我們環境部會來想辦法，能把這個產業帶動起來。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，如果覺得牠處理廚餘的部分還不錯的話，其實我覺得應該可以透過環境部，跟各個地方、縣市政府環保局，應該慢慢去推動，是不是可以透過這樣的方式來處理廚餘的部分？要不然之前很多我們家裡面的廚餘，有的可能就直接丟到垃圾車上面。其實這個也會減少我們焚化爐的壽命，所以我希望，如果部長覺得還不錯的話，是不是可以透過這樣的方式來減少廚餘？而且，我覺得這個黑水虻除了可以減少廚餘，牠的所有的東西幾乎也可以當成肥料。利用黑水虻或者處理污泥，沒有進到肥料的部分，可能就是進到生質柴油，所以我覺得這個好像也還不錯。目前也有在試處理污泥這個部分，我覺得電子產業產生出來這些污泥，應該也是有重金屬含量，如果透過這樣的方式來處理的話，也許會比現在的方式更好。"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員提到的就是說，如果污泥的話，最後可以像這個油的話，例如說未來可以做航空用油SAF，它就是一個很好的東西。我個人是希望我們部內來規劃一下，把這個產業動起來，才可以解決我們各式各樣的問題，我們會來推動。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝部長。另外，彰化縣在7月分，就是有關這個垃圾的部分，是用破袋的方式。剛剛一開始的時候，當然民眾還蠻反彈的，可是經過這幾個月的時間，彰化縣政府的環保局也覺得這個成效還不錯，垃圾量可以減到兩成左右。這個回收，就是民眾的這個分類做得還不錯，也可以當成其他縣市的榜樣。我想請教部長，因為其他縣市，不論是彰化或其他縣市都一樣，就是垃圾堆置的部分算是還蠻嚴重的，有的縣市本身沒有焚化爐，垃圾就直接用打包的方式，我覺得這對於整個垃圾的處理，不是一個很好的方式。尤其有很多堆置場又是在學校的周邊，那也是在水源頭，所以我希望未來針對我們的垃圾怎麼處理，或者是從源頭處理減量。","部長，當然你也看過，上禮拜你說你也看過好幾個地方，我也非常欽佩，你從5月分上任到現在，你也是自己親力親為到各地方去看。我當然是佩服，也希望這些垃圾堆置場也好，或者是這些垃圾，我們不希望這些垃圾逐年的增加，我們應該要看到這些垃圾逐年減少，而且分類要分得很好。部長是不是可以給我們一個期許，未來你在這幾年當中，在你任內你希望這些垃圾的堆置場可以做到什麼樣的程度？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個是三年內把這個露天裸露的解決掉，這個我一定會如期的完成，定期跟社會大眾報告，這個數字全部都會公開，讓大家能夠看得到的。第二個是源頭減量，我會找網購業者或是外送業者來道德勸說，大家都有社會的責任，他們能夠提供更環保的餐具，或更環保的作為來做這個事情。另外一個是我希望有一個全循環的經濟園區，這樣才可以幫臺灣未來解決這個問題。我們目前因為中央跟地方的權責，其實卡得非常的緊，希望未來能夠有一些突破，才能夠解決這個問題。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。當然，我們希望能夠逐步去解決，因為其實每個人每天生產的垃圾量，有時候還滿驚人的。有時候你在網路上購買東西，他的包裝就是層層的包裝，一個小樣的東西，他可能用一個大盒子、大箱子包裝，然後裡面又用那個泡棉，可能又包起來。所以我覺得如果說，就部長講的，可以跟這些網購業者有一些共識，是不是可以把比較小樣的東西，它的包裝就不要包得這麼大，我覺得應該可以朝著這個方向去做源頭減量。我想請教部長，我們過去一直在追蹤的資源循環促進法，預計什麼時候要送到立法院？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我上任的時候的確也聽過這個法案的簡報，但是我也看到裡面的一些問題跟盲點，所以目前我跟我們的團隊在討論，應該還是回到廢清法跟資源循環促進法，兩法一併考量，等於是兩個法重新再修正。這次我們比較不一樣的是，我有跟我們的團隊說，我們籌組了一個8+N的聯盟，產業界一起來談，不要我們環境部官方來談，產業界，產、官、學都一起來談。我們希望年底前可以送到行政院，現在已經在溝通了，有一個比較嶄新的法案讓各位知道，這樣才可以解決問題。所以我們目前不希望弄一個空的法案，我們希望明年可以送到大院來。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。部長，最後一個問題我想請教，彰化在我的選區，那裡有兩個場，一個可能就是廢棄物的堆置場正在申請，另外一個可能就是飛灰或底渣的堆置場所，現在也在彰化縣政府這邊做環評。我想請教，未來我們希望垃圾減量，那這個堆置的場，如果說我們可以從源頭減量的話……因為這種都算是嫌惡設施，你要設在任何一個地方，民眾絕對不會同意，而且如果是在水源頭的話，所有的民眾都是抗議嘛！這些焚化爐的垃圾燒完了剩下一些底渣，這些底渣未來要怎麼處理？現在有的是固化處理，這樣子的話又要找一個地方去掩埋，我覺得這個也好像是對整個環境的二次傷害，而且當地的民眾也非常的反彈。針對這個部分，我希望環境部這邊也要去正視，如果所有的東西都可以從源頭去減量的話，也許我們就不需要有這麼多的掩埋場，我希望這件事部長能夠正視。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，我們會注意，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員，謝謝部長。","現在我們處理臨時提案，總共有三案，請一併宣讀。","一、","案由：此次山陀兒颱風夾帶大量風雨造成淹水導致大量家具受損和垃圾，清運受颱風破壞的大型垃圾，卻要付費，鄉親認為不應該讓他們承擔清運費用。這反映了在天災垃圾清運費用的政策上，存在灰色地帶，居民颱風受損，政府還要在清運垃圾上收費，這不是讓人民在風災受損後，還感覺被趁火打劫？","爰提案要求環境部，在一個月內研擬相關措施，提交社會福利及衛生環境委員會。是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　盧縣一","二、","案由：","有鑑於土壤及地下水污染整治法自99年初全文修正後迄今，未有再進行任何之條文修正。是以，考量該法內容中共計16條罰則之規範，伴隨經過近15年時間變遷及物價變化下，乃應再有適度之修正增加，藉以正常維繫預防及整治土壤及地下水污染，確保土地及地下水資源永續利用，改善生活環境，維護國民健康之落實，爰提案要求環境部應啟動修法研議作業，俟後限期於二個月內向本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　涂權吉","三、","案由：","有鑑於環境部宣示將將推動氣候科技循環園區，透過建立高值化及自主循環機制，藉以落實國內廢棄物問題徹底解決之目的。然而，具體在「園區建立自主循環能力」、「建立小型區域集中處理中心」、「協助最適可行循環技術發展前處理設施」、「新創試驗計畫試驗場址」及「全循環園區（Total solution）」等五大措施上，容有作業期程、費用規劃、用地選址及法制作業等事項因揭露不明而應有檢討之空間，爰提案要求環境部限期於二周內項本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　涂權吉"],["主席：第一案，環境管理署有沒有問題？"],["顏署長旭明：第一案，我們建議後面倒數第三行「在一個月……」改成「一個月內了解情形，提交書面報告」，以上。"],["主席：一個月內……"],["顏署長旭明：一個月內了解情形，提交書面報告。"],["主席：請問各位委員有沒有意見？寫這樣等於沒寫，要了解？要處理啦！"],["顏署長旭明：那個有溝通過，他們現在是有處理了啦！"],["主席：好，那……"],["劉委員建國：主席，你是一個月內要研擬相關措施，他要把相關措施拿掉啦！他要了解情形，就一個月改為兩個禮拜就好了啦！對不對？"],["顏署長旭明：我們遵照召委跟委員的意見辦理。"],["主席：好，兩個禮拜，第一案就修正通過。第二案。"],["顏署長旭明：第二案，沒有意見。"],["主席：第二案有沒有問題？照案通過是不是？第二案照案通過。第三案。"],["林副署長健三：第三案，建議「要求限期於一個月內向本委員會提交書面報告」。"],["主席：陳委員有沒有意見？"],["陳委員菁徽：可以，同意，謝謝。依照修改意見，謝謝。"],["主席：我們這個衛環真的每一個委員都非常善良。第三案就修正通過，好，大家有沒有意見？沒有。那我們繼續，臨時提案全部處理完畢，接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:04:54","end_time":"2024-10-07T11:57:49+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155169","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","duration":294,"start_time":"2024-10-07T11:52:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493372ad4359c635b8202bf54ec90cbbd08b5ac217a49bd2e2eacc3f5f2d3f8ee295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.0178437500000004,"end":5.650343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.03846875,"end":7.7428437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.485343750000002,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.25284375,"end":46.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.31034375,"end":48.360968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.360968750000005,"end":69.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.83346875,"end":48.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.35346875,"end":87.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.69659375,"end":89.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.78471875000001,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.97409375000001,"end":135.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.78409375000001,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.31346875,"end":164.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.00096875,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.02971875,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.65159375000002,"end":244.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.08971875,"end":261.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.96471875000003,"end":270.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.50346875,"end":287.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.23034375000003,"end":292.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.96409375,"end":293.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.89221875000004,"end":293.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.90909375,"end":293.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.95971875000004,"end":294.80346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.055,"end":7.338,"text":"主席,謝謝。我想請部長還有農業部次長。好,有請部長次長。"},{"start":11.294,"end":32.65,"text":"那部長為了因應2025年的紐西蘭牛乳零關稅對本土弱農產業的衝擊你們提出了班班有鮮奶、班班喝鮮奶那本席也多次召開協調會跟質詢最後決議就是除了進口的保酒乳不應該貼明鮮乳名稱之外農業部也"},{"start":34.671,"end":46.162,"text":"就是積極的介入也支持這樣子的一個提案那但是這個政策實施之後好像引發了一些負面的效應請問部長跟次長你們知道嗎"},{"start":48.342,"end":63.553,"text":"部長您先好了謝謝委員的一個關心確實它也面臨到一些挑戰包括從保存但是我想委員剛才所關心的因為就是保久乳它一定是我們農業部當時規劃都是國產的一個鮮乳去是"},{"start":69.457,"end":81.12,"text":"本席也提示您就是第一個問題產生就是價格目前中央開出的鮮乳採購價跟市場價有一個蠻大的落差不曉得部長有沒有在這個全聯或是7-11買過這個鮮乳一瓶多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":91.755,"end":97.839,"text":"我比較我比較少但是還是有買過大概一瓶平均大概都31塊、32塊但是我們中央現在發包採購的鮮乳每瓶只有16塊寶九乳是14塊以雲林縣政府為例班班有鮮奶早在2015年起就開始自主實施雲林縣政府採購價是20塊一瓶"},{"start":120.596,"end":133.77,"text":"這代表著什麼你知道嗎這代表著我們這麼利益良善的一個政策其實是在壓低價格購買這一項政策本來是為了扶植本土的落農產業結果"},{"start":136.383,"end":160.171,"text":"目前的這樣子政策方向第一是單價太低業者可能入不敷出真正能夠去做的可能都是大型的產業大型的這個公司才有可能去承接那小型的落農他是沒有無力承接的因為他賠不起啊所以這一點請問一下部長跟次長可不可以來提高一下這個購買的價格以利保障本土的落農"},{"start":166.515,"end":189.856,"text":"謝謝委員提醒了其實雲林一直實施這個每週喝鮮乳這個其實也蠻久所以我們非常感謝雲林其實對於這個支持本土的酪農產業其實非常有經驗也確實已經在做那至於當初定下來那個價格其實也是找乳廠過來一起協商那考量到大概是兩點第一個是因為這次是由政府"},{"start":190.536,"end":212.305,"text":"希望每週學童能夠喝到兩次奶那個量是大的所以這個價格是由乳廠那邊提出來說但是乳廠都是大型的乳廠啊你一般的小型弱農他完全賠不起啊這小型的這個乳廠是不可能有這樣的財力的所以這樣對產業而言到底是雪中送炭還是央苗助長"},{"start":213.72,"end":235.748,"text":"所以這一點請部長跟次長要趕快考慮一下檢討一下是不是應該調整如果弱農真正沒有受到幫助的話那這個政策其實是在扼殺他們那第二個是政策不夠多元扼殺了這些養乳的業者這個政策提出之後有很多的養乳弱農當初是仰賴學校訂購"},{"start":238.869,"end":240.814,"text":"那甚至很多人小時候都有喝過這個羊乳啊結果班班喝鮮乳的政策"},{"start":245.388,"end":270.243,"text":"記出之後,從7月開始,現在酪農紛紛收到客戶的停止訂購,停止訂購業績下滑了2至5成,是不是可以把養乳鹽納入一個選項呢?好,謝謝委員提醒,我想養乳鹽是可以作為非常好的乳鈣來源提供的選項之一,我們來評估看怎麼把它納入,即便它的量確實可以供應的量是比較少"},{"start":270.743,"end":285.948,"text":"本席也再次提醒說今天很多委員都講了冷鏈這個部分一定要加強否則你是沒有辦法運送鮮乳也沒有辦法保障學童的安全所以冷鏈物流的這個部分請部長還有次長一定要加強關心謝謝"}]},"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邱志偉順便那個經濟部何次長"},{"start":17.32,"end":40.262,"text":"這個 主委 大家都在談 最近討論颱風架颱風架的依據 颱風架怎麼做決策那你從國家發展的角度 從產業發展的角度 從經濟發展的角度覺得現行的這個放颱風架的這個依據跟標準跟決勝模式有沒有檢討的空間我認為這個還是要看科學依據啦 那至少現在"},{"start":42.044,"end":62.542,"text":"各縣市應該自己決定其他國家都沒有用這個政府去宣布是不是要放台灣價那我看過其他的這個國家幾乎好像都沒有這個相關的規定當然我尊重科學那當然產業發展國家發展也是很重要我想問你有沒有檢討的可能性"},{"start":63.875,"end":80.694,"text":"現在應該只是對於這個未來的這個鋒利的判斷應該是可以再檢討了但是由政府來發布我想會比我小時候還好我們小時候就是每一家企業自己決定由各縣市政府自己去做判斷"},{"start":81.355,"end":103.602,"text":"因為我們早年小時候就發生過很多事情有些企業跟著政府放有些企業是自己決定結果發生了很多的意外所以後來才由政府統一的我經歷過這個時代所以還是覺得限制有限制政府去做決定是目前相對比較好的一個決策模式至少以我過去我們經歷的時代來看是比較安全的那何市長產業界有沒有什麼聲音呢?"},{"start":106.213,"end":132.134,"text":"當然產業界會造成不便因為就好像已經排定的這個班表這個他們可能要重新再run過一次對他們競爭力會不會影響競爭力競爭力當然也有一些影響那你覺得現行台商價放下標準是不是要有調整空間這個應該是要交給專業啦你的回答我也會回答"},{"start":133.677,"end":153.99,"text":"好 第一個少子化日本有一個少子化對策委員會少子化是一個大臣他是一個內閣部會的首長在擔任少子化對策委員會統合各個部會去做針對這個少子化造成的國安問題那我們現在少子化的對策分佈在相關的部會衛福部、經濟部相關的部會"},{"start":157.748,"end":168.131,"text":"那他的實施雖然經費這個比過去增加很多但是效果還是有限所以未來有沒有可能有一個四群統一機關像日本一樣有一個少子化大臣"},{"start":169.416,"end":187.956,"text":"這個主委您支持嗎我是支持這個看法的也跟您報告本來我今天下午3點有約院長就是要報告這個想法目前因為當然這個裡面我也跟陳時中政委討論過想法是不是少子化大臣或者少子化部長現在有個大臣就是陳時中政委但是我們希望有一個比較專職的機構"},{"start":190.399,"end":213.077,"text":"他不政委不用來備詢阿對,我們希望在院裡面設立一個專職的一個特別的機構然後來整合各部會因為招數化是一個國安問題而且越來越嚴峻對所以不能用那個跨部會的協調機制去面對這個險峻的國安問題沒錯,它應該是一個很所以我還是想跟您一樣是要有一個政府一個專職機構統籌預算統籌人力對針對問題解決問題對"},{"start":218.854,"end":238.333,"text":"那您今天下午再跟對我們是希望成立一個人口對策委員會它不只是少子化的問題包括我們現在對勞動力的需求的問題還有國家未來競爭力的問題還有甚至將來影響到國內消費跟繳稅的問題把它當成一個重大的議題去看待跟它一個國家安全的問題對那國家未來的這個競爭力我們今天討論到新創"},{"start":243.129,"end":270.78,"text":"新創的這個資金面你看國發基金去年度新創天使投資區域分部這個集中在北部我剛剛說集中在北部你們投入40家31家然後南部幾乎沒有所以我上會期才希望你們有一個創投工會設一個南部辦公室有南部辦公室可以統合或去協助這個新創產業在南部生根發展茁壯嘛你看連土壤都沒有"},{"start":271.633,"end":294.483,"text":"通常都沒有他怎麼去深耕茁壯呢所以資源分配的不均這個很重要這個立刻去導正好的並不夠大也是一個問題現在你這個國發基金裡面針對新創的這個資金才8億這些都是年輕人都有未來性都有理想性但是他們缺少的就是資金那國發會128億的經費你們只有給他8億太保守"},{"start":300.987,"end":321.299,"text":"也對這些年輕人這個創業這個提供太少的協助所以比要做大我是希望說在你的任內可以每年增加最起碼一年要20億20億對他們才能增加比較多的這個新創事業的協助你現在一年才40家我希望說一年可以到100家"},{"start":324.12,"end":346.6,"text":"我同意委員的看法我們會來滾動式的把它調整那第二個事情是我們看起來在均衡的部分做得不夠那我們也會再強化在...要盡快!這個均衡...這個失衡的現象不是現在才存在已經存在很久了創造公司從來沒有在南部有創造公司中部也沒有然後沒有一家你們扶植的這個西方世界是南部的這個公司"},{"start":348.305,"end":360.854,"text":"好 這個我來改善而且這8億太過保守所以我希望你可以到20億每年增加到這個扶植100家的新創事業好 我們來做一個調整另外另外這個"},{"start":365.441,"end":390.823,"text":"你們的這個新創聚落跟這個創業加速器它分布也是有中北、青南這部分我提醒你們一下這新創聚落你要多一點在南部集中在新北、台北跟桃園比例很高六都的比例很高那這個加速器的據點也都是如此集中在台北市經濟委員會大部分都是來自於這個中南部"},{"start":392.594,"end":414.252,"text":"高雄就有四個立委都是來自於這個高雄還有台南還有嘉義所以你的這個我們如何對這個年輕人這個新創產業他們想要在高雄在台南去深耕築藏政府沒有給他們的這個任何的協助啊所以這個部分啊再請主委特地要要好的這個我們會會依據我們總統軍人台灣的政策來做調整"},{"start":418.154,"end":443.902,"text":"跟強化那新經濟移民法有沒有再評估再重新啟動因為事實上新經濟移民法大部分的法令都已經在纜財專法裡面了所以我們基本上會強化纜財專法繼續往下走你覺得纜財專法目前有發揮它的這個法律功能跟政策功能嗎它需要再優化所以我們目前在跨部會協商中很快就會公告然後送院"},{"start":445.239,"end":472.633,"text":"所以我希望從以前開始我現在有提案我也可以拿出來審但我希望你們要支持如果你們現在的染財方案沒有辦法整合所有的資源然後效果有限的話我會考慮要把我的新基民法這個拿出來審給你們更大的壓力才能有更強的動力來正式面對這個缺工的問題全世界都在搶人才高階藍領都在搶"},{"start":474.468,"end":493.719,"text":"那台灣你現在的攬財、流財方案我覺得太過於保守而且成效有限那為什麼不立一個專法來整合各部會的資源然後開放創新然後讓國家讓世界各國人才能夠聚在台灣主委"},{"start":496.325,"end":507.49,"text":"我想委員的提示我收到了我回去也研究一下當時您的法案我們來看看怎麼樣更強化在送出之前我們也許可以再優化"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:47:08 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11:55:51","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部次長就「我國政府對新創及中小企業扶植政策執行狀況與未來精進措施（含政策、人才、法制、稅制、資金、區域平衡等六大面向）」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155168","gazette":{"lineno":663,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時47分）謝謝主席，有請國發會劉主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["邱委員志偉：順便請經濟部何次長。"],["主席：何次長。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：召委好。"],["邱委員志偉：主委，大家最近都在討論颱風假，包括颱風假的依據、颱風假怎麼做決策，你從國家發展的角度、從產業發展角度、從經濟發展角度，覺得現行放颱風假的依據跟標準、跟決策模式，有沒有檢討的空間？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我認為這個還是要看科學依據，至少現在各縣市應該自己決定。"],["邱委員志偉：其他國家都沒有用政府宣布是不是要放颱風假，我看過其他國家幾乎好像都沒有相關的規定，當然我尊重科學，但是產業發展、國家發展也是很重要，我想問你有沒有檢討的可能性？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在對於未來風力的判斷應該可以再檢討啦！但是由政府來發布，我想會比我小時候還好，我們小時候就是每一家企業自己決定。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你還是覺得維持現狀，由各縣市政府自己去做判斷？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，因為早年在我們小時候就發生過很多事情，有些企業跟著政府放，有些企業是自己決定，結果發生了很多意外，所以後來才由政府統一的，我經歷過這個時代。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你還是覺得現制由縣市政府去做決定是目前相對比較好的一個模式？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：至少以過去我們經歷的時代來看是比較安全的。"],["邱委員志偉：何次長，產業界有沒有什麼聲音呢？"],["何次長晉滄：當然產業界會造成不便，因為已經排定的班表，他們可能需要重新再run過一次，這個確實是對他們造成不方便。"],["邱委員志偉：對他們的競爭力會不會有影響？"],["何次長晉滄：競爭力當然有一些影響。"],["邱委員志偉：那你覺得現行颱風假放假的標準是不是要有調整的空間？"],["何次長晉滄：這個應該是要交給專業。"],["邱委員志偉：你的回答，我也會回答。","第一個，有關少子化，日本有一個少子化對策委員會，少子化對策委員會是一個大臣，一個內閣部會首長在擔任，少子化對策委員會統合各個部會針對少子化造成的國安問題去做，而我們現在少子化的對策分布在相關部會，包括衛福部、經濟部等相關部會，雖然經費比過去增加很多，但是效果還是有限，所以未來有沒有可能有一個事權統一機關，像日本一樣有個少子化大臣？主委，您支持嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我是支持這個看法的，也跟您報告，本來我今天下午三點有約院長，就是要報告這個想法，當然我也跟陳時中政委討論過。"],["邱委員志偉：你的想法是不是少子化大臣或者少子化部長？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在有個大臣就是陳時中政委，但是我們希望有一個比較專職的機構。"],["邱委員志偉：但是政委他不用來備詢啊！政委不用來備詢啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們希望在院裡面設立一個專職的特別機構，然後來整合各部會。"],["邱委員志偉：因為少子化是一個國安問題，而且越來越嚴峻。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以不能用跨部會的協調機制去面對這個險竣的國安問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯！它應該是一個很……"],["邱委員志偉：所以我的想法跟你一樣，就是中央政府要有一個專責機構，統籌預算、統籌人力，針對問題、解決問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員志偉：您今天下午再跟院長報告。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們是希望成立一個人口對策委員會，它不只是少子化的問題，包括我們現在對勞動力需求的問題，還有國家未來競爭力的問題，甚至將來影響到國內消費跟繳稅能力的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：所以把它當作一個重大的議題去看待，就是看待一個國家安全的問題，以及國家未來的競爭力。","好，我們今天討論到新創，有關新創的資金面，你看，國發基金去年度新創天使投資的區域分布集中在北部，我剛剛說集中在北部，你們投了31家，然後南部幾乎沒有，所以上會期我才希望你們創投公會設一個南部辦公室，由南部辦公室可以統合或者去協助新創產業在南部深耕發展茁壯，你看連土壤都沒有，土壤都沒有的話，它要怎麼去深耕茁壯呢？所以資源分配不均這個很重要，這個要立刻去導正。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["邱委員志偉：餅不夠大也是一個問題，現在國發基金裡面針對新創的資金才8億，這些都是年輕人，都有未來性、都有理想性，他們缺少的就是資金，國發會128億的經費，你們只給8億，太保守！也對這些年輕人創業提供太少的協助，所以餅要做大，我是希望在你的任內可以每年增加，最起碼1年要20億，20億對他們才能增加比較多的新創事業的協助，你現在一年才40家，我希望一年可以到100家。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我同意委員的看法，我們會滾動式的調整。第二個事情是看起來我們在均衡的部分做得不夠，我們也會再強化中南部。"],["邱委員志偉：要儘快！這個失衡的現象不是現在才存在，已經存在很久了。創投公會從來沒有在南部設辦公室，中部也沒有，然後沒有一家你們扶助的新創事業是南部的公司。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，這個我來改善。"],["邱委員志偉：而且8億太過保守，所以我希望你可以到20億，每年增加，一直到扶助100家新創事業。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們來做調整跟改善。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，你們的新創聚落跟創業加速器的分布也是有重北輕南，這部分我提醒你們一下，新創聚落要多一點在南部，現在集中在新北、臺北跟桃園的比例很高，六都的比例很高，加速器的據點也都是如此，都集中在臺北市。經濟委員會的委員大部分都是來自於中南部，高雄就有4個立委，另外還有臺南、嘉義，所以我們如何對年輕人的新創產業想要在高雄、在臺南去深耕茁壯，政府沒有給他們任何協助啊！所以這部分再請主委特地……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，這個我們會依據總統均衡臺灣的政策來做調整跟強化。"],["邱委員志偉：新經濟移民法有沒有評估再重新啟動？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：事實上，新經濟移民法大部分的法令都已經在攬才專法裡面，所以我們基本上會強化攬才專法繼續往下走。"],["邱委員志偉：你覺得攬才專法目前有發揮它的法律功能跟政策功能嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它需要再優化，所以我們目前在跨部會協商中，很快就會公告，然後送院。"],["邱委員志偉：從以前開始我就有提案，我也可以拿出來審，但我希望你們要支持，如果你們現在的攬才方案沒有辦法整合所有資源，然後效果有限的話，我會考慮把我的新經濟移民法拿出來審，給你們更大的壓力，才能有更強的動力來正式面對缺工的問題。全世界都在搶人才，高階、藍領都在搶。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["邱委員志偉：臺灣現在的攬才、留才方案，我覺得太過於保守，而且成效有限，為什麼不立一個專法來整合各部會的資源，然後開放創新，讓世界各國人才能夠聚集在臺灣？主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員的提示我收到了，我回去也研究一下當時您的法案，我們來看看怎麼樣更強化，在送出之前也許可以再優化。"],["邱委員志偉：我時間到了是不是？"],["主席：對。"],["邱委員志偉：好，召委要以身作則。"],["主席：對，召委要以身作則。"],["邱委員志偉：我時間到，下次有機會再問。謝謝。"],["主席（邱委員志偉）：召委都以身作則。","下一位質詢請吳春城。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","speakers":["邱志偉","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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行刑訴訟法101條羈押就是那幾個原因嘛那預防性羈押也就是說他有再犯的可能性嘛但是在許多案件裡面法官認為說被告沒有需要判死刑都是因為他有教化的可能性他有悔改那自然就是不會認定說這有反覆實施之餘嘛所以我才會說今天你要押一個被告"},{"start":157.667,"end":157.687,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":178.203,"end":206.037,"text":"上禮拜部長也有說你不認同這個可以執行摺底刑期嗎那我也蠻認同部長的這個想法雖然這是我們第一次遇到這個狀況所以今天我們擔心的是當這個被告他被非常上訴後來撤銷死刑判決之後回歸到普通法院去審理這時候能夠限制他自由的方法就是一種就是法官裁定羈押嘛"},{"start":206.817,"end":206.937,"text":"我可以說明嗎?"},{"start":231.576,"end":260.189,"text":"我想我們現在碰到的目前是即將可能提起非常上訴的時候那現在大家會說提起非常上訴是不是會放人那當然委員已經很清楚幫我幫我已經分析了我上次在院會有講過了這個目前還在羈押還在收容中那在法院其實最高法院在在整個一個審理在確定判決還沒有撤銷之前還是一個收容的狀態大概委員有提到如果萬一撤銷了"},{"start":261.129,"end":264.632,"text":"那如果他撤銷發回到高院的時候,那當然我沒建議,我們都當檢察,我們知道計價權是屬於法院嘛"},{"start":282.947,"end":283.668,"text":"那你剛剛就應該這樣回答吳校委員啊"},{"start":300.729,"end":323.445,"text":"吳宗憲他在帶風向就告訴人民說這些人不會出來但是我就在這邊告訴你依照法律的規定我就說現場很多法官、檢察官的學長也有我檢方的指導老師我如果講錯隨時歡迎反駁我這個回到法院審理的時候法官第一個法官有可能不押這是我們要面臨的第一個風險第二個風險是即使回到高院他最長的羈押時間也只有12個月"},{"start":326.228,"end":331.347,"text":"那如果超過12個月沒有辦法繼續羈押了呢?法官又還沒有下判決那怎麼辦?"},{"start":332.888,"end":361.687,"text":"這也是第二個問題啊所以你跟政治人物說政客說人不會放出去那這不是在騙全國人民嗎我現在我在理解的是在講目前的狀況收容中是不可能放出去那如果說撤銷撤銷花回高院的話當然委員擔心這個問題我不敢保證說沒有沒有對那是不是就要麻煩部長以及秘書長要正視這個問題這些人有可能在不久的將來會被放出來"},{"start":363.028,"end":381.359,"text":"法律不是說可能不會啦應該不會啦就可以那萬一法官放出來呢萬一法官因為羈押的要件就那幾個嘛滅政逃亡101跟101對或者是預防性羈押嘛滅政或逃亡或者是重罪羈押但是有滅政或逃亡之餘"},{"start":382.319,"end":403.126,"text":"這三個狀況請問一下一個二十幾年前的殺人罪他有什麼滅證或篡證之餘第二個逃亡那你要怎麼說他有逃亡之餘呢所以當羈押的條件都不符合的時候法官怎麼去自己自創法律去裁定羈押他這是我一直以來我上個禮拜一跟部長就教就這個問題但部長跟院長那個時候都沒有回答我"},{"start":403.746,"end":429.048,"text":"但我必須在這邊要幫全國人民告訴兩位這件事情這個人可能在回歸到普通法院審理的時候他沒有辦法押或者是已經超過了12個月押不了了那這時候這些人回到社會上面我們國家有什麼作為我今天是要講這個這個會造成人民的心理的不安全感那第二個我要跟部長說明的"},{"start":430.799,"end":458.601,"text":"部長剛跟中加兵委員回答一個東西是完全不對的你要再去跟中加兵委員說你講錯了就是說假釋可以適用新法但是部長刑法施行細則第7條之2是以行為時欸這假釋的標準是行為時欸所以他必須讓到當年假釋的條件也就有可能是15年就可以假釋了如果部長你說假釋可以用新法的話"},{"start":460.031,"end":475.56,"text":"可以用什麼終身不得假釋假設說可以用新法的話我跟你講現在明天監獄保證大鬧一堆無期突襲人開始鬧房了因為他本來他以為15年或25年可以假釋就現在突然我要試用新法所以部長即使你想要修"},{"start":477.441,"end":505.128,"text":"這個實行細則我覺得也萬萬不可因為會天下大亂但是你剛剛跟宗嘉斌委員回答說這個可以適用新法所以這是不對的這完全違法我想這是一個立法政策的一個問題立法政策的一個問題那這部分我嚴厲的結果我們是以適用新法較為妥適那沒有啊那那我就跟好那你這37個死刑犯適用新法"},{"start":506.38,"end":510.181,"text":"現在所有目前在監在看守所的死刑患都是屬於屬於這個這個屬於屬犯罪個案個案犯罪情形屬最嚴重的那我認為能審判這屬於嚴重的暴力的"},{"start":534.393,"end":561.115,"text":"的一個犯罪所以我們認為這部分是在社區是非常的危險的部長部長你沒有回答我的問題我的意思是說依據刑法實行細則假釋是以行為時的那個時間點的假釋條件就你今天你告訴宗家兵委員說這37個死刑犯將來如果判無嫉妒刑的話我募嫉妒刑修成終身不得假釋可以適用刑法這個整個違反規定啊那如果"},{"start":561.795,"end":580.138,"text":"你這樣你難道要割裂適用嗎?那現在的吳宗憲這不是立法政策的問題耶法一時折轉我希望就是說這部分當然是可以討論的部長沒有這樣子我跟你講你這樣講我就完全顛覆我對法律的原來法律可以對他可以這樣對別人不可以這樣"},{"start":580.879,"end":609.54,"text":"那今天你無期徒刑無期徒刑得假釋的時間規定就是以行為實碼適應細則規定的清清楚楚那你今天突然要說他們可以適用終身不得假釋的新規定那今天在現在在關的其他被判無期徒刑的人非這37個那他們是不是也要適用新的呢你今天變割裂成這37個用新的其他人用舊的法律沒有人在這樣把各位各位這邊那麼多法官檢察官"},{"start":611.121,"end":630.799,"text":"部長不能這樣子啦好那沒關係部長這部分麻煩你們自己回去研議那第二個就是說上個禮拜一在執行部長的時候部長說重罪可以羈押我在那邊跟部長說4至665號以及行刑訴訟法101條第一項第三款已經說得很清楚了重罪"},{"start":631.48,"end":631.5,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":658.43,"end":664.925,"text":"我就是說 延續禮拜一的那個的那個說法還有剛剛的講法啦"},{"start":666.133,"end":687.874,"text":"這些人這37位死刑犯當然如果非常上訴不成功那就是執行我想部長沒有意見但是如果他們非常上訴成功的話回歸到普通法院真的你們要注意在押是有時間限制的如果他一年內判不出來真的沒有法律可以再把他限制在在看守所內了"},{"start":688.635,"end":688.655,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":706.65,"end":722.143,"text":"被告他有可能會因此而沒有羈押而回到社會那法務部有沒有什麼因應作為這是我上個禮拜一一直請教部長但是部長都沒有回答的部分那我現在來回答那我想羈押權是屬於法院"},{"start":722.904,"end":723.064,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":742.498,"end":746.981,"text":"跟部長報告就是說科技監控沒有錯但是我們只是知道他人在哪裡我們沒有辦法"},{"start":769.315,"end":771.017,"text":"各位報告這是如果說這是屬於審判中的失誤有關審判中的失誤"},{"start":787.576,"end":798.041,"text":"這部分再麻煩部長也要找內政部討論一下警政署討論一下看將來如果這些人沒有羈押的話能夠怎麼解決那最後不好意思再給我一點時間我想我們來回過頭去討論這個精神障礙這次那個憲法法庭判決對於這個精神障礙的這個認定我覺得"},{"start":815.828,"end":835.875,"text":"就像剛剛那個翁曉琳委員說的其實這一次的法大法官的判決已經是數外裁判我認為也是因為大法官本來是解釋憲法但是這次現在大法官開始他會創造一些制度要大家去遵守那這個已經完全脫離我們對於大法官的認定就像以前我們在在刑法第19條我們當然可以"},{"start":837.415,"end":837.435,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":857.722,"end":870.707,"text":"對於法官在刑法19條的時候他可以認定他行為時的這個標準那我說真的我也是不能夠理解說大官這次為什麼會做這樣子的認定他這個已經是"},{"start":872.108,"end":872.408,"text":"委員同仁提及應報主義"},{"start":890.391,"end":917.853,"text":"從先什麼死刑是殺人這個我還是覺得啦就套一句那個布袋戲的話啦他說那個殺生是護眾為護生展業不展人所以說其實今天我們不是喜歡殺生我們不是我今天是為了保護眾生而去做這件事情在我們心中我不是取了他的性命其實他是在為他的業障去去做一個付出那個他這個責任所以"},{"start":919.854,"end":942.081,"text":"從頭到尾我都沒有說那麼認同去做這個應報的概念但是你要知道說死刑在這個社會上面的存在為什麼我自己主我們很支持尤其事務界非常支持因為我們都看過很多血淋淋的例子所以我們對於死刑我們認為他有存在的必要性而不是像有一些委員或一些學者他們可能"},{"start":943.021,"end":943.041,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":963.148,"end":966.671,"text":"這37個死刑犯如果法院真的不再羈押我這裡建議因為執行是你們的權責這37位就請15位大法官每個人認養三個你把他送到"},{"start":986.016,"end":990.76,"text":"司法院每個大法官輔導他們,心理輔導三個月,這樣可能就比較沒問題了。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:38:47 - 11:55:25","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155167","gazette":{"lineno":729,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時38分）我們麻煩代理秘書長及部長。"],["主席：秘書長，辛苦了。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：秘書長、部長，兩位都是司法官訓練所的學長，在座也有很多檢察官、法官、也有我以前在檢方的指導老師，所以如果我等一下有任何說錯的地方，大家都可以現場就說我講錯了。","我到立法院之後常覺得有一件很奇怪的事情，部長，我已經不只一次告訴部長，真的不要配合政客在那邊答話，在這裡不能說不懂法律的人來這裡假裝自己是法律專家，而懂法律的人來這邊又假裝自己不懂法律，你面對那些政客在那邊胡說八道時，為什麼還要配合他演出呢？我們應該告訴國人真正的法律規定是什麼，我們該告訴人民什麼是大家要煩惱、要擔心的；至於什麼是錯誤的、什麼是認知作戰，就要告訴人民這些不用擔心，我想這才是我們學法律的人最基本的精神嘛！我們是要解決社會的問題、解決社會的不安跟糾紛，而不是來這邊陪著一些政客搞得社會更混亂！我在這邊就幫大家再上一次法律課。尤其是吳大委員，對法律不懂，卻每次都胡說八道、亂帶風向，部長剛剛也跟著她這樣講，所以我剛剛才會說部長沒有回答到立委的問題嘛！待會我會跟你說是怎麼樣了。","對於一個人在就審期間、包括偵查期間，能夠押他一定是因為有羈押或預防性羈押的必要性嘛！請問兩位，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。那麼羈押跟預防性羈押都有它的要件，根據刑事訴訟法第一百零一條，羈押就是基於哪幾個原因嘛！預防性羈押也就是因為有再犯的可能性嘛！在許多案件裡面，法官認為被告沒有需要判死刑，都是因為認為他有教化可能性、有悔改，自然就不會認定有反覆實施之虞嘛！所以我才會說，要押一個被告、必須把他關著、不讓他出去，要有法院的羈押裁定嘛！如果一個人被判死刑，在執行槍決之前則叫做收容，不叫羈押。羈押依照目前的法制可以折抵刑期，但是收容應該沒有。部長上個禮拜也說你不認同這個可以折抵刑期，我也滿認同部長這個想法，雖然我們是第一次遇到這個狀況。我擔心的是當被告因為非常上訴被撤銷死刑判決之後，回歸普通法院審理，這時候能限制他自由的方法就是一種，也就是法官裁定羈押嘛！但是法官裁定羈押必須符合羈押或預防性羈押兩種條件，就導致被告在回歸普通法院審理的時候有可能遇到法官不押啊！怎麼會像剛剛吳思瑤委員說這個不可能等等，而部長也跟著她回答，然後又講到收容的事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，我可以說明嗎？我想，我們現在碰到的是即將、可能提起非常上訴的時候，而大家問到提起非常上訴期間是不是可以放人？當然委員已經很清楚地幫我分析，我上次在院會也講過了，關於這點，目前還屬於收容中。在法院方面，其實以最高法院的整個審理，在確定判決還沒有撤銷之前仍是收容狀態。","剛才委員提到，萬一撤銷了怎麼辦？撤銷就要區分了，如果是自為判決的話，判決確定，我們就直接當場執行了嘛！也就是直接將收容改成受刑……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，那……"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外，我再跟委員報告，如果是撤銷、發回到高院的時候，那我們都當過檢察官，知道羈押權屬於法院嘛，我也沒辦法保證法院一定會押。但是以現在來說，我認為法院會押，但如果法院不押，我們要怎麼處理……"],["吳委員宗憲：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們就是只能抗告建議羈押，或提出再行羈押的事由，再聲請法院羈押。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，那你剛剛就應該這樣回答吳思瑤委員啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是，因為她在……"],["吳委員宗憲：吳思瑤委員在帶風向，也就是告訴人民這些人不會出來，但我就是要在這邊告訴你，依照法律的規定，我說了，現場很多法官、檢察官學長，也有我在檢方的指導老師，我如果講錯，隨時歡迎反駁我。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：回到法院審理的時候，第一，法官有可能不押，這是我們要面臨的第一個風險。第二個風險是即使回到高院，最長的羈押時間也只有12個月，如果超過12個月、沒有辦法繼續羈押了，法官又還沒有下判決，那怎麼辦？這是第二個問題啊！","所以你跟政治人物、政客說人不會放出去，那不是在騙全國人民嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我理解而且我在講的是以目前的狀況，收容中不可能放出去。如果撤銷、發回高院的話，對於委員關心的這個問題，當然我不敢保證說沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，那是不是就要麻煩部長以及秘書長正視這個問題──這些人有可能在不久的將來被放出來，談論法律不是說「可能不會」、「應該不會」就可以，萬一法官放出來呢？因為羈押的要件就那幾個嘛，滅證、逃亡……"],["鄭部長銘謙：第一百零一條及第一百零一條之一的預防性羈押。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，或者是預防性羈押嘛！滅證、逃亡或重罪羈押但有滅證或逃亡之虞這三個狀況。請問一下，一件二十幾年前的殺人罪有什麼滅證或串證之虞？第二點是逃亡，那你要怎麼說他有逃亡之虞呢？當羈押的條件都不符合的時候，法官怎麼自創法律去裁定羈押他？這是我一直以來的問題，我上個禮拜一跟部長就教的就是這個問題，但部長跟院長那個時候都沒有回答我。我在這邊必須幫全國人民告訴兩位這件事情：這個人可能在回歸普通法院審理的時候，因為沒有辦法押，或者已經超過12個月押不了了，那麼對於這時候這些人回到社會上，我們的國家有什麼作為？我今天是要講這一點，這個會造成人民心裡的不安全感。","第二個我要跟部長說明的是，部長剛才對鍾佳濱委員回答的一件事是完全不對的，你要再去跟鍾佳濱委員說你講錯了。你說假釋可以適用新法，但是部長，刑法施行細則第七條之一、第七條之二是指「行為時」欸！這個假釋的標準是行為時，所以必須用到當年假釋的條件，也就是有可能15年就可以假釋了。如果如部長說的，假釋可以用新法，也就是可以用終身不得假釋的新法，假設可以用新法的話，那我跟你講，明天監獄保證大鬧，一堆無期徒刑囚犯開始鬧房了！因為他們本來以為15年或25年後可以假釋，結果現在突然適用新法。所以，部長，即使你想修施行細則，我也覺得萬萬不可，因為會天下大亂。你剛剛向鍾佳濱委員回答這部分可以適用新法，這是不對的，這完全違法。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我想這是立法政策的問題，就這部分，我們研議的結果是以適用新法較為妥適，在法制上我們可以來處理！"],["吳委員宗憲：這37個死刑犯若適用新法，要讓他們終身不得假釋，那其他死刑犯呢？可以割裂適用嗎？你可以說以前判的無期徒刑就要適用舊法，現在新判的無期徒刑適用新法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，現在所有在監、在看守所的死刑犯都是個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的、屬於嚴重暴力的犯罪，我們認為這部分在社區是非常危險的，而且教化……"],["吳委員宗憲：不！部長，你現在沒有回答我的問題。我的意思是依據刑法施行細則，假釋是適用行為時那個時間點的假釋條件，結果你今天告訴鍾佳濱委員這37個死刑犯將來如果被判無期徒刑的話，我們把無期徒刑修正為終身不得假釋，他們可以適用新法，這樣整個都違反規定啊！難道要割裂適用嗎？現在的無期徒刑……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，我想這是立法政策的問題……"],["吳委員宗憲：這不是立法政策的問題欸！"],["鄭部長銘謙：法依時折轉，這部分當然是可以討論的。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，部長，沒有這樣的道理！你這樣講就完全顛覆我對法律的……原來法律對他可以這樣、對別人不可以這樣！無期徒刑得假釋的時間規定就是以行為時為準嘛！施行細則規定得清清楚楚。你今天突然說他們可以適用終身不得假釋的新規定，那現在正在關的其他被判無期徒刑的人（非這37人），他們是不是也要適用新的法律呢？否則今天就變成割裂成這37個人適用新法、其他人用舊法，法律沒有人這樣用吧！這邊有這麼多法官、檢察官，部長不能這樣啦！沒關係，部長，這部分麻煩你們自己回去研議。","第二，我上禮拜一質詢部長時，部長說重罪可以羈押，但我在這邊要跟部長說，釋字第六六五號以及刑事訴訟法第一百零一條第一項第三款已經說得很清楚了，重罪羈押還必須有逃亡跟串證之虞，不是重罪可以當作唯一羈押理由，你……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我清楚，這是因為第一百零一條裡面……"],["吳委員宗憲：你回去以後可以再看一下我們當天的質詢。當天我就跟你說我不想跟你辯論，因為這是一般檢察官最基本的概念，部長一定要做那樣的解釋，所以我覺得不想爭辯，我是認為不可以這樣啦！","再來，我延續禮拜一的說法還有剛剛的講法，這37位死刑犯的非常上訴如果不成功，當然就是執行，我想部長沒有意見。但是如果他們非常上訴成功，回歸普通法院的話，你們真的要注意在押是有時間限制的，如果一年內判不出來，真的沒有法律可以再把他限制在看守所內了。第二點就是可能會面對法官不押，因為法官獨立審判，任何人──包括院長、包括秘書長也沒有權力告訴個別法官必須裁押或不押，所以我們可能面對到的風險是這名被告有可能因此沒有羈押而回到社會，那法務部有沒有什麼因應作為？這是我上個禮拜一一直請教部長，但是部長都沒有回答的部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我現在來回答好嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：好，請說。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想，羈押權屬於法院嘛，如果我們經過各種努力，包括建議、論告，建議法官羈押，法官還是要判，我想我們就用抗告程序，另外依法以科技監控、定期查訪、定期報到等機制對這些被交保或釋放的人……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，好，但是跟……"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在依法我只能做到這樣。","也跟委員報告，剛才提到的妥速審判法，羈押有6次延押，還有1次……如果委員對這部分有問題，那是不是也可以問司法院的意見？"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟部長報告，有科技監控沒有錯，但只是讓我們知道他人在哪裡，沒有辦法克制他不在那個時間點殺人，對不對？我們只能控制他人在哪裡而已嘛！要是他戴著腳鐐回家，卻砍了他的媽媽，沒有人有辦法，所以……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，如果這屬於審判中的事務，有關於審判中的事務，也就是涉及釋放被告或交保被告，如果立法上有缺漏，是不是可以請司法院來表示意見？"],["吳委員宗憲：不，這部分再麻煩部長，可能也要找內政部、警政署討論一下，看看將來如果這些人沒有羈押的話能夠怎麼解決。","不好意思，再給我一點時間，最後我們回過頭討論精神障礙。對於這次憲法法庭判決對於精神障礙的認定，我覺得就像剛剛翁曉玲委員說的，其實這次大法官判決已經是訴外裁判，我認為也是，因為大法官本來是解釋憲法，但是現在大法官開始創造一些制度要大家遵守，這已經完全脫離我們對於大法官的認定。就像以前根據刑法第十九條，我們當然可以要求法官在審理時認定被告行為時的精神狀況如何，但是這次大法官甚至多了一個要求，就是在審理中要怎麼樣、受刑了要怎麼樣、執行前要怎麼樣，已經多了非常多奇怪的要求，這都已經不是原本刑法第十九條規定法官可以認定被告行為時狀況的標準。說真的，我也不能夠理解大法官這次為什麼會作這樣的認定，我認為這已經變成訴外裁判了。今天時間也不夠了，我想我會另外找個時間再來請教您。","剛剛也有很多委員同仁提到，就是從應報主義去講，或者從什麼死刑是殺人等一些角度去看，但我還是套一句布袋戲裡的話：「殺生為護生，斬業不斬人。」"],["主席：對，「殺生為護生，斬業非斬人。」"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我們今天其實不是喜歡殺生，是為了保護眾生而去做這件事，在我們心中，我不是取了他的性命，其實是他在為他的業障付出責任，所以從頭到尾我都沒有那麼認同採用應報的概念。你要知道，對於死刑在這個社會上的存在，為什麼我們很支持，尤其是實務界非常支持？因為我們都看過很多血淋淋的例子，所以對於死刑，我們會認為它有存在的必要性，而不是像一些委員或學者，他們可能認為死刑是另外一套理論。我還是認為這樣啦，不要對我們扣帽子說我們嗜殺、喜歡取人性命，實際上我們還是為了保護眾生才作這樣的堅持，這點我在這邊跟各位報告。至於我本來想提到精神病與死刑的部分，可能就之後談好了，不好意思，因為時間的關係，謝謝二位。"],["主席：部長，針對37個死刑犯，如果法院真的不再羈押，我這裡建議，因為執行是你們的權責嘛，那麼這37位就請15位大法官每個人認養3個，你們把他們送到司法院，由每個大法官輔導他們，給予心理輔導3個月，這樣可能就比較沒有問題了，讓他們跟大法官日以繼夜3個月就好，看看他們受不受得了。謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：先處理會議時間問題，上午會議繼續質詢到所有委員發言完畢為止。","接下來請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:07:04","end_time":"2024-10-07T09:56:00+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155090","委員名稱":"林岱樺","duration":424,"start_time":"2024-10-07T09:48:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493f9ba38dcb94574360e1b3eec0bde5d39772a8a89b87e0382da9f4d80c98cffc15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.51846875,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.868468750000002,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.00346875,"end":14.610968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.914718750000002,"end":22.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.64346875,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.479093750000004,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.018468750000004,"end":62.164718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.337843750000005,"end":62.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.23221875,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.97471875,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.12221875,"end":67.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.20221875,"end":66.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.68284375,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.69971875,"end":67.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.07346875,"end":84.86159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.63784375,"end":86.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.85284375,"end":87.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.86971875,"end":89.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.94534375,"end":90.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.58221875000001,"end":92.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.86034375000001,"end":98.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.59346875,"end":99.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.71159375,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.03221875000001,"end":100.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.20096875,"end":103.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.38659375,"end":100.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.03596875000001,"end":103.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.81221875,"end":104.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.18346875,"end":108.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.86659375,"end":120.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.53284375000001,"end":109.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.32846875000001,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.31284375,"end":143.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.85659375,"end":147.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.60284375,"end":162.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.98846875,"end":171.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.56096875,"end":174.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.66159375,"end":177.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.72909375,"end":177.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.25221875,"end":177.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.34909375,"end":183.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.50096875,"end":178.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.02346875,"end":187.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.96784375000001,"end":188.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.28409375,"end":200.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.70846875,"end":206.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.64846875,"end":209.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.69846875000002,"end":228.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.58159375000002,"end":233.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.47971875000002,"end":240.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.60096875000002,"end":241.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.88346875000002,"end":246.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.57471875000002,"end":247.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.06409375,"end":263.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.20909375,"end":2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一定要是沿線的訊號 一個月提出具體時程 針對這67點是一本息了解 你已經花了一半 就這一半來解決我高雄的捷運的沿線 跟這個偏高雄的偏鄉以及你整個高鐵從北到南 從南到北都足夠 一個月提出具體時程 可以嗎"},{"start":410.842,"end":420.189,"text":"好,那我們也正式的,您提出來之後,我們就正式的辦會刊。好,那就謝謝您。希望在一個月後,那您的執行官能夠公告國人。謝謝。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:48:56 - 09:56:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部次長就「我國政府對新創及中小企業扶植政策執行狀況與未來精進措施（含政策、人才、法制、稅制、資金、區域平衡等六大面向）」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155090","gazette":{"lineno":157,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時49分）請主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["林委員岱樺：幾個問題，本席針對高鐵、偏鄉、隧道都接不到訊息，特別在高雄的輕軌捷運、偏鄉更是收不到訊息，政府一直說要推動5G，你的預算現在執行的狀況如何？本席今天要跟你討論的就是這個重點，而且國產5G基站的補助是不是淪為泡影呢？第一個問題，主委，為什麼我們要推動5G呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：主要是為了通訊的進步跟時代的需求，尤其是5G，主要是它的訊號比較穩定，而且它的lag時間非常短。"],["林委員岱樺：對什麼有益？對哪些產業有益？對哪些領域有益？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：最主要就是不允許有lag跟失誤的，譬如醫療產業的遠距醫療，或者是在重要的通訊上面，這些都是很重要的，尤其是您剛才所說的……"],["林委員岱樺：對產業的升級、對產業的AI智慧化有沒有幫忙？整個5G、真5G的一個環境……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它會有一定程度的協助。"],["林委員岱樺：當然，顯著之必要。5G、真5G對我們要解決行人地獄是否可以根本的解決呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個是會有一定的協助，但是它的建置……因為主要是它的波比較短，所以它的建置量會比較大。"],["林委員岱樺：你只要回答有沒有，這就關係到你要不要推5G啊，既然你說5G對產業、5G對我們行人地獄可以有根本解決的方案，好，那我們看我們怎麼推。本席在3月6號的時候有提出質詢，也發現到國發會作業是非常積極，但我們還是等不到真5G，NCC跟數發部的編列預算是非常的積極，但是要求品質是非常的消極。簡單講，整個5G我們花了多少錢？4年計畫分兩期，110至111年、112至113年，110至111年我們是做什麼事情？我們總共編222.4億，到去年為止花了187億，您認為有花到真5G嗎？我讓你知道，沒有。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：在部分地區現在是有5G，但是部分地區現在看起來還是沒有。"],["林委員岱樺：是假5G，是在4G的模擬系統，我們認定它為5G，是嗎？也就是我們的DSS系統，這是4G的虛擬系統、4G的系統，然後我們變成說它是5G，可是真的5G的國產，你要達到產業的升級，你想要解決行人地獄，你的5G叫做真5G是要在O-RAN的情況之下，所以主委，你現在在收爛攤子，你的222.4億到去年已經花了187億，我們做到現在，人民所檢視的就是我們的捷運、高鐵隧道、部分的偏鄉為什麼訊號還是不穩定，還是出現網路斷訊呢？如果我已經花了187億要建置5G，理論上我的高鐵隧道，這是最普及人民，全國老百姓最在意的，今年就剩下67.44億。主委，您看一下，這222.4億，你們花了187億，說會做到真5G，可是你們沒有，你們是在4G的系統之下去做泛5G的系統，可是偏偏這個泛5G的系統真的要做5G的時候、O-RAN的時候是嫁接不上的，這句話你認同嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前的確是有改善空間，我自己有體會。"],["林委員岱樺：不是改善空間，是根本沒有辦法嫁接喔，主委，這個部分你要很清楚，如果還有改善空間，表示技術上是可以調整，事實上是不行的，5G的O-RAN是要真的系統，你的222.4億，你之前用了187億不是要去補助這個所謂的4G系統，是要補助整個完整的建置，這就是國內電信政策錯誤的選擇，我們選擇了WiMAX，導致整個3G、4G國產的崩盤，現在就看5G能不能國產，否則我們5G照這樣下去，你沒有趕快調整政策方向的話，那表示你現在補助所剩下的67.44億的目標是什麼？是促進國產品牌，我們的國產真的能夠做到真5G，能夠去執行O-RAN，可是根本沒有辦法嫁接你的4G系統，所以你的67.44億，理論上你花不出去，你沒有辦法核銷的。主委，我還正式的去做索資，我4月8號還做了索資，你們說112年跟113年的政策目標，5G是要推廣國產品牌，然後4月24號我再問，主委看清楚左下角，你們回答了國產5G微型基地現在尚未支援DSS，表示你5G微型是根本沒有辦法嫁接的，所以你的67.44億是不能執行的。","本席具體要求，就是針對你現在的67.44億，本席要求你們現在協調數發部跟NCC優化所有高鐵沿線，我不要站體，就是沿線、捷運及偏鄉，尤其是高雄捷運、高雄偏鄉，這些都是路線老化、訊號不良，我要講的是，非站體，一定要是沿線的訊號，一個月提出具體時程，針對這67.44億，依本席了解，你已經花了一半，就這一半來解決高雄捷運的沿線跟高雄的偏鄉，以及整個高鐵從北到南、從南到北都足夠，一個月提出具體時程，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可以啊。"],["林委員岱樺：好，那您提出來之後，我們就正式來辦會勘，那就謝謝您，希望在一個月後您的執行案能夠公告國人，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員，下一位質詢請邱議瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","speakers":["邱志偉","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席那麻煩請一下我們彭部長吳元昭好部長早部長那今天想說跟你討論一下我們有關碳排跟減碳的問題那在2050年我們因2050進行碳排環境部有依我們氣候變遷因應法定定5年為一期的階段管制目標"},{"start":34.714,"end":48.023,"text":"我想了解一下我們現在政府在進行減碳工作上有符合這個減碳的目標嗎?從過去到2022、2023的資料來看的話就是現在只有到2022我必須說2005到2022年這段時間其實減的量很低"},{"start":53.633,"end":64.064,"text":"對阿因為我們看到2020這第一階段溫室氣體管制這個目標其實確定是跳票啦還有一點點時間2020是沒有達到的嘛對對對那而且我們看20222022他基本上"},{"start":71.292,"end":94.551,"text":"也只有減少1.77%那部長好像在也有表示過基本上2025年10%的部分你說這好像有難度對不對有難度對有難度嘛有難度那為什麼2025年減碳10%有難度那怎麼有這個自信還是有什麼政策說在2030年可以減到23到25%"},{"start":96.773,"end":122.563,"text":"在2032年的時候可以減到40%這2025年10%都達不到怎麼短短這幾年怎麼部長有這個自信還是有什麼政策要去推動所以報告委員這個就是我要來從民間到政府服務公職的目標啦因為我如果沒有做到這樣我就不用我來了齁那也跟各位因為過去其實減碳現在只有到2022年那個量真的是不夠多那我們的生態系還沒有建立起來"},{"start":123.143,"end":141.74,"text":"那的確這個問題包括2030的目標從我們一開始接任之後其實來算都很難達到那個目標但是因為這個總統府開了氣候變遷對策委員會之後總統院長跟行政院團隊現在都動起來了所以我們由下而上由上而下都訂了不一樣的目標那的確現在有積極了"},{"start":142.601,"end":171.221,"text":"我們希望在年底的時候能夠公布第三階段也就是說我們到2030、2035的目標能夠出來但是我必須說跟委員報告我們比現在的目標2025可能會達不到我猜可能目前從數字上因為明年就2025了所以我們2026可以知道2025的資料可能會有一點點差距但是2030、20...如果我們加速努力的去改變的話我希望有機會但是這個還要有一些前提就是說我們要做很多事才可以做得到"},{"start":171.721,"end":192.2,"text":"所以我們擔心的就是因為你看現在也從2020年開始也進行那麼久那2025部長上任以後看這個目標基本上應該你也感覺應該有很大的難度啦應該也蠻困難的所以當然這一方面我們部長是專家啦那能夠奠定這個目標我們也是覺得樂觀其成啦"},{"start":194.102,"end":213.615,"text":"那只是說實在話我們現在就是有隱憂喔那因為在減碳的執行上我目前看到我們看這個減碳的執行上我們覺得有很大很大的變數那尤其喔現在我們的能源政策是不是跟經濟部的減碳我們是不是覺得有點背道而行"},{"start":215.158,"end":236.048,"text":"能源政策是屬於經濟部的責任那剛剛委員如果說我猜委員是提到的是是不是要燃煤等等或燃氣其實煤轉氣天然氣是一個過度的能源那我也都尊重那但是國際上有不一樣的對於能源有不一樣的看法那現在其實我相信我們這個行政院也在調整也在觀察這個趨勢當中"},{"start":237.609,"end":257.446,"text":"所以我們現在看到我們一直目標要減碳可是你看我們2023到2024我國發電的配底扣除水利風利太陽能等綠能還有再生能源等等這些都是排碳量發電非常高你看我們這一次我們現在看到我們臺灣針對這部的發電就達到82.5%"},{"start":262.971,"end":291.737,"text":"那現在大家在全球碳費徵收的情況下很多的先進國家都在朝著我們低碳力的能源配比那而且目前我們河山一號機也已經停役這個數據是在河山一號機還沒有停役之前喔那現在河山一號機停役那是不是我們現在要補足這個核電的缺口那跟減碳的目標是不是就更遙遠"},{"start":293.466,"end":308.737,"text":"基本上這個目標全世界還是以綠能的提升為主當然有些國家其實核能也是一個選項之一目前在包含COVID-28的結論是這個樣子當然我必須跟委員報告因為所謂的這個"},{"start":309.397,"end":309.717,"text":"火力燃燒"},{"start":325.015,"end":346.264,"text":"所以我們現在認為我們現在這個能源政策當然這核能是經濟部的問題可是我們減碳來我們環境的問題是環境部在處理那目前我們減碳跟能源的問題我們減碳已經嚴重落後再加上我們的能源政策現在核酸1號機停役"},{"start":347.344,"end":365.044,"text":"明年2025非核家園和核三二號機又要停役那你說你的減碳目標又要達到那麼大的目標這個兩個根本是背道而馳完全是相反所以經濟部的做法跟環境部的做法這個我們執政黨這兩個部會是完全相反的做法"},{"start":366.468,"end":381.361,"text":"你又要減碳經濟部又在減核反核把核能停掉又去用天然氣又去燃煤發電然後環境部又說要減碳的目標要達到那麼高的目標所以我不知道我看不出這政策怎麼達得到"},{"start":382.623,"end":398.865,"text":"因為經濟部是依法辦事我不能幫他回答但是因為按照現有的法令就是核電廠就是按照這個明年的最後一個季五月初一這個是按照法令來解決那因為過去沒有提出來所以只能按照這個法令去做這樣的程序"},{"start":399.446,"end":420.519,"text":"是啊 所以我說經濟部的做法跟環境部的做法兩個是相反的做法阿包委員其實我們兩個部會有時候也都會打架都會意見不一樣的這個很正常的事情所以問題是我們執政應該的目標是要一致的嘛所以我瞭解大概我們10月底我們賴總統會召開第二次的氣候變遷委員會那部長應該會參加吧會參加"},{"start":423.741,"end":447.275,"text":"部長好像是裡面的執行秘書我是執行秘書對對那所以我也希望部長在參加這個會議的時候藉由這個會議希望能夠提供正確客觀的資訊能夠兼顧我們環保不要讓這些反科學還有帶有意識形態這些建議讓我們檢探的過程會成為我們檢探過程的絆腳石"},{"start":448.796,"end":463.87,"text":"包委員其實這裡面也包含了例如說這種所謂的安全性的評估和廢料的評估這個都要考慮啦那我們這個委員會目前的確是請環境部能夠把各方面的這個資訊弄成是一個平台公開的讓大家能夠來有一個討論的空間"},{"start":465.051,"end":477.925,"text":"因為其實不管是永和反和其實我們發現現在的論述裡面一邊是沒有辦法說服另外一邊對立的非常的厲害所以我們環境部會積極的現在我們正在規劃那個平台當中也希望10月底能夠跟大家來報告"},{"start":479.69,"end":507.036,"text":"那我想請問一下那個部長你要不要說明一下如果我們減碳的進度落後也讓民眾知道如果落後或失敗的話會對我們造成什麼影響什麼後果基本上如果減碳的進度落後的話當然全球的這個碳定價的這個趨勢已經啟動了所以基本上會變成是一個我們台灣很大的成本那對企業的轉型也會是一個非常大的壓力所以我們還是希望能夠追得上國際的腳步啦"},{"start":508.576,"end":534.544,"text":"所以我一直希望我們當然我們環境部也要適時的表態因為我們講減碳這個是國際趨勢不分朝野黨派而且會嚴重影響到我們經濟還有我們民眾健康等等的問題那所以現在我們一定要正視這個高碳高碳發電的問題還有我們要如何去減碳所以現在要將低碳率"},{"start":535.239,"end":555.51,"text":"的核能真的我覺得要好好的思考一下一直把核能廢除對於我們減碳這個過程可以說是影響非常的大所以經濟部當然就像部長講經濟部有他的期程要去做的事但是我覺得這對民眾的健康還有整個國際的趨勢還有嚴重影響我們的經濟這都是背道而馳那"},{"start":559.952,"end":588.212,"text":"部長也有心要讓我們環境更好而且這個不能影響到我們經濟那我們環境部部長一直在朝減碳的過程訂定這個高的目標可是經濟部的政策跟環境部完全是這個執政上完全是相反的方向所以我說經濟部的做法讓環境部的目標根本就難以達到不但沒有幫忙而且是幫到忙對不對"},{"start":589.012,"end":609.937,"text":"報告委員其實這個是要一起努力啦那他們有他們的難處也有一些程序的問題那當然我們還是鼓勵綠能能夠提升為主按照目前現階段的政策目標希望綠能趕快加速但是綠能也在各方面也有很大的問題所以各種的能源在未來處理都會遇到各式各樣的問題這個是我們國家目前面臨到的處境"},{"start":611.278,"end":611.538,"text":"涂委員．"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:39:27 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剛才這個前面方委員的質詢裡面對於所謂情節最嚴重這個部分他認為是不明確的法律概念他認為是大法官的創制"},{"start":46.618,"end":70.927,"text":"但是其實齁,這個所謂情節最嚴重這絕對不是大法官的創制,他也不是說從來沒有出現過他就出現在什麼,他就是我們台灣有簽署的這個公民與政治權利的國際公約第6條裡面他就寫得非常清楚,他說凡未廢除死刑之國家非犯罪情節最重大之罪,就是這裡"},{"start":72.279,"end":86.079,"text":"對不對所以他事實上他並不是大法官創製的這個這個名詞而是公正公約裡面第二條裡面已經有的條文了對他是公約裡面本來就已經有的這是第一點齁核先序名但是就算吶齁"},{"start":87.677,"end":102.448,"text":"就算沒有這個國際公約事實上我認為這大法官會議解釋裡面對於所謂犯罪情節最嚴重的我認為他就是個闡明而已他就是闡明再次闡明說判處死刑必須是情節最嚴重的"},{"start":105.63,"end":130.936,"text":"這個我想如果沒有這個大法官會議解釋這個本來就是這樣子啊我們過去所判的有情節不嚴重的判死刑嗎我們可以說情節不嚴重我們就把他判他死刑嗎不行啊死刑本身他就是我們的最高刑度目前制度下的最高刑度他當然是情節最嚴重才能判死刑啊對不對所以大法官會議做這個解釋他事實上只是再度纏綿死刑他必須嚴謹必須謹慎所以他必須是情節最嚴重對不對我這樣解釋"},{"start":136.231,"end":136.371,"text":"對,好,這個齁,因為這個"},{"start":166.653,"end":169.421,"text":"我在這裡我也是希望就是說因為從這個9月20號憲法法庭做出這個"},{"start":173.935,"end":185.604,"text":"憲判第8號之後這個社會大家對於這個憲判的內容有諸多的評論那裡面有一些我看了這些評論我覺得很有道理但是有一些評論我個人認為說這個是這個錯誤的理解憲判的第8號判決所以我在這裡大概簡單的做這樣子的解釋看看這個秘書長怎麼看我認為這個大概"},{"start":200.555,"end":216.326,"text":"大概這個憲判第8號它就是四個內容其實它就是四個內容第一個它就是宣告如果唯一死刑是違憲目前唯一死刑的這些法條是違憲因為它沒有任何的衡量空間按照符合這個構成要件你就必須判死刑"},{"start":217.006,"end":236.408,"text":"所以他認為這個是違憲第一個就是就是唯一死刑違憲第二個就是剛剛所講的他從他再次闡明了闡明了死刑僅適用於這個犯罪這個個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的情形這就我剛剛講他再次闡明這個這個判處死刑的這個原則第三就是說"},{"start":238.029,"end":263.191,"text":"他就死刑的部分這個部分是是可能是我們必須在修法上面做最大更動的就是在這個這個這個死刑判決他的程序必須更嚴謹程序必須更嚴謹所以他增加了一些程序的過去沒有的程序要求例如說這個三審必須延遲辯論剛剛所提的那必須強制辯護還有這個各級的這個何玉婷必須一致決這剛剛都講過那大概就這些程序更嚴謹"},{"start":264.723,"end":290.824,"text":"這個程序嚴謹的要求大概就是我講的這個判決第3點第4點就是說他有關這個心智缺陷障礙的部分他設定特殊的一些程序過去我們規定的時候說你行為時的心智障礙但是現在加上審判時包括受刑時都必須心智能力健全對不對所以大概大法院會議解釋就是這4點所以這4點這樣集合起來現在大家把這個大法院會議這個憲判"},{"start":293.245,"end":311.555,"text":"這個憲判的這個這個第8號直接下一個標題叫做實質廢死我個人是非常不認同的他事實上沒有廢死也沒有實質實質上也沒有廢死他死刑就還是存在死刑還是存在他就是增加了對於判決死刑過程中的程序要求更嚴謹是不是這樣"},{"start":314.817,"end":315.077,"text":"委員高見"},{"start":344.468,"end":367.676,"text":"我剛所講的這些還有包括這個剛才黃委員在質詢過程中對於這個各省各級都必須要自決的這部分他認為這個是法官愉悅大法官愉悅司法權利所進行立法的工作事實上"},{"start":370.281,"end":389.75,"text":"從過去的大法官會議解釋到現在的憲法判決到從美國歷史上的憲法修正案這一些它就是法官造法的一部分是不是這樣我們現在所引用的憲法修正案這個大家最常引用美國憲法第5修正案它就是一個法官造法的結果"},{"start":390.715,"end":405.007,"text":"其實是闡明憲法規定的這個內涵那他希望說事實上法官造法他確實是在透過大法官一解釋本身的功能他就有法官造法的功能在裡面所以這個也沒有我個人認為也沒有所謂什麼前所未見什麼我覺得這個都是言過其實事實上他就是一個法官造法他是一個非常符合現在這個憲政體制的一個過程"},{"start":420.298,"end":435.367,"text":"那我這個部分我大概花了一些時間來闡明也是希望說明讓社會理解大法官會議所做的這個憲法判決第8號我覺得他事實上根本離實質廢止還非常非常非常的遠"},{"start":436.971,"end":456.078,"text":"他完全沒有Face他就是把這個程序做的嚴謹而已這是第一點但是我剛剛講過說這裡面他大概事實上也會牽涉到幾個問題尤其是國人大概最關心的從這個判決出來之後憲法判決出來之後最關心的就是目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人的相關問題"},{"start":459.367,"end":469.832,"text":"這個在憲法法院所做的這個憲判第8號裡面也做得非常清楚的而且也是一個重點也是在憲法判決裡面的一個重點那這個他大概提就是說"},{"start":476.984,"end":496.603,"text":"現在受這個宣告他大概提幾個要件可以提出非常上述可以申請或者是這個檢察總長依職權兩個程序兩個方法擇依可以申請也可以這個大法官這個檢察總長依職權他大概幾個要件第一個就是說他的犯罪情節非屬"},{"start":498.486,"end":509.475,"text":"最嚴重這部分看似比較抽象但事實上它裡面有一些產名對於這個必須要直接故意必須該掛故意必須擇一故意這個有做一些產名"},{"start":512.52,"end":535.992,"text":"那第二點他就是說你如果引用的法條你當初被判死刑引用的法條是唯一死刑的法條你這個就可以提非常上訴對不對那第三點就是說如果這個程序不符合他現在所提的這些程序包括沒有延遲辯論包括沒有自決包括這個沒有強制辯護那你就可以提非常上訴對不對那第四個"},{"start":537.335,"end":566.879,"text":"第四點他就說除了你申請有這次有申請解釋的案件以外其他的案件你即使沒有申請的案件你也可以用個案究記嘛對不對大概他解釋的就這四個嘛齁那依照這樣子的這個大法官會議解釋齁這個部分這個我們目前這37名死刑這37名受宣告死刑的這個受刑人他們你們什麼時候可以檢視完成他們到底這37個人哪一些人可以會符合這些要件"},{"start":567.689,"end":580.798,"text":"跟委員報告剛才委員可能有一點就是說今天針對因為原則上這憲判如果宣告違憲的話是向後的那是例外才針對這37位有申請的部分所以說不在這個申請範圍內的話那不當然可以是適用不當然但是在法官會議裡面有提阿他有提說其他非申請的案件亦可割案就緝阿那是割案就緝"},{"start":593.126,"end":618.718,"text":"那至於說這37位我們會盡快因為很多大部分都要經過那個檢察總長檢察總長去做斟酌審酌了以後認為有必要申請非常上訴才去那我們一定會盡速的來如果有盡速去檢視這些這個部分我想事實上我們還是希望說社會大家能夠清楚這個我們目前大法官所做的憲法判決"},{"start":619.448,"end":639.501,"text":"他裡面要求這個判處死刑的這個程序必須嚴謹嚴謹的過程跟這個我們現在社會上大家對於說對是否情節嚴重的判斷這部分可能在法感情上有落差因此在這幾天就有案件說哎呀這個情節是不是屬最嚴重結果他的死刑"},{"start":640.424,"end":645.607,"text":"被改判無期徒刑定驗的爭執爭議的關鍵點是在於就這個犯罪行為是否屬情節最重大的"},{"start":656.374,"end":662.496,"text":"相關的新政的問題跟社會上面法感情之間的落差這個一直都有這個問題就不要說判死刑這個你連詐欺案你連這個悲心罪你連這個這些的都會有這種法官所做判決他跟社會的這個法感情之間有落差這部分我希望能夠改善最後這個因為時間也到了最後就補充我個人認為非常重要的部分我希望司法院法務部跟這個衛福部能夠一起來研擬"},{"start":684.082,"end":708.323,"text":"就是因為我們這次新增了這個這個憲法判決之後新增了過去是只要你只有說你在行為時沒有這個這個這個必須身心狀態健全但這現在在審判中在甚至最後的受刑時你要有受刑的能力也就是說你被判死刑之後如果你在被判死刑之後才發瘋才心智上心神喪失那也不能執行這個部分這個部分"},{"start":711.283,"end":732.989,"text":"社會上最大的質疑就是說那我裝瘋賣傻就好啦我裝瘋賣傻我就不用執行死刑了那這個部分我想他就回歸到不管你是不是在死刑上面都一樣即使在行為時也一樣現在目前是行為時我只要裝瘋賣傻說我那時候是瘋的我就可以免除刑責嗎?顯然不是因為我們有一套"},{"start":734.096,"end":747.309,"text":"有一套精神鑑定的流程但是我要在這裡提醒司法院、法務部這個憲判判決出來之後跟過去最大的差別是什麼"},{"start":748.477,"end":776.731,"text":"過去我精神科醫師我做了這樣子的鑑定是針對你行為時的精神狀態做鑑定我鑑定出來你的精神狀態沒有問題跟你會不會判死刑跟你這個犯人會不會死沒有必然的關係因為你還必須接受後面的審判可能那時候還審判成立但是所謂受刑能力的鑑定他就直接牽涉了對我精神科醫生來講我鑑定你精神狀態健全你就要執行死刑"},{"start":777.711,"end":778.111,"text":"好,謝謝委員的這個關心"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:36:15 - 09:49:43","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155086","gazette":{"lineno":258,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時36分）主席，我們請司法院。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長好。在我開始今天想要談的問題之前，先就剛才一些法律上的問題跟秘書長這邊來溝通一下。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：第一個，剛才前面黃委員的質詢裡面，對於所謂情節最嚴重這個部分，他認為是不明確的法律概念，他認為是大法官的創制，但是其實所謂情節最嚴重絕對不是大法官的創制，也不是從來沒有出現過，它就出現在臺灣有簽署的公民與政治權利國際公約第六條，裡面寫得非常清楚，說「凡未廢除死刑之國家，非犯罪情節最重大之罪」就是這裡對不對？所以事實上並不是大法官創制了這個名詞，而是……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：公政公約第六條裡面已經有的條文。"],["沈委員發惠：對，它是公約裡面本來就已經有的，這是第一點，合先敘明。但是就算沒有這個國際公約，事實上，這個大法官會議解釋裡面對於所謂犯罪情節最嚴重，我認為就是闡明而已，就是再次闡明判處死刑必須是情節最嚴重的，如果沒有這個大法官會議解釋，本來就是這樣子啊！我們過去所判的有情節不嚴重的被判死刑嗎？可以情節不嚴重就判他死刑嗎？不行啊！死刑本身就是目前制度下的最高刑度，當然是情節最嚴重才能判死刑，對不對？所以大法官會議做這個解釋，事實上只是再度闡明死刑必須嚴謹、必須謹慎，所以必須是情節最嚴重，我這樣解釋對不對？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：實務上面以往要判死刑大概也都是，因為公政公約早就已經簽署，有國內法的效力。"],["沈委員發惠：對，所以不會因為大法官會議做了這個解釋，讓原本會判的法官變得無所適從，用剛才黃委員的話，變得無所適從，應該沒有這樣的問題吧？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為公政公約我們早就已經簽署為國內法，所以它已經有這個要求了。"],["沈委員發惠：對。我在這裡也是希望因為從9月20號憲法法庭做出憲判字第8號之後，社會對於憲判內容有諸多評論，我看了這些評論，裡面有一些我覺得很有道理，但是有一些評論，我個人認為是錯誤理解憲判字第8號判決。所以我在這裡大概簡單地做這樣的解釋，看看秘書長怎麼看。","我認為憲判字第8號大概就是四個內容，第一個，宣告唯一死刑是違憲，目前唯一死刑的這些法條是違憲，因為它沒有任何的衡量空間，符合這個構成要件就必須判死刑，所以他認為這個是違憲，第一個就是唯一死刑違憲。第二個就是剛剛所講的，他再次闡明死刑僅適用於個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的情形，再度闡明判處死刑的原則。第三個，就死刑的部分可能是我們必須在修法上面做最大更動的，就是在死刑判決的程序必須更嚴謹，所以他增加了一些過去沒有的程序要求，例如三審必須言詞辯論，剛剛所提的必須強制辯護，還有各級合議庭必須一致決，這剛剛都講過，那大概就是這些程序更嚴謹，程序嚴謹的要求就是我剛剛講的判決第三點。第四個，有關心智缺陷障礙的部分，它設定特殊的一些程序，過去我們只有規定行為時的心智障礙，但是現在加上審判時，包括受刑時，都必須心智能力健全，對不對？","大概大法官會議解釋就是這四點，所以這四點這樣集合起來，現在大家把大法官會議憲判字第8號直接下一個標題叫做實質廢死，我個人是非常不認同的，它事實上沒有廢死，實質上也沒有廢死，死刑還是存在，它就是增加了對於判決死刑過程中的程序要求更嚴謹，是不是這樣？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是，委員高見。"],["沈委員發惠：是不是？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以所謂實質廢死，第一個，我認為是扣帽子啦！第二個，我認為這個判決實質上就沒有廢死，死刑依然存在，只是把必須判處死刑的要件訂得更加嚴謹。當然這也會產生一些問題，我剛剛所講的這些，還有包括剛才黃委員在質詢過程中對於各級都必須要一致決的部分，他認為這個是大法官逾越司法權力進行立法的工作，事實上，從過去的大法官會議解釋到現在的憲法判決，到美國歷史上的憲法修正案這些，它就是法官造法的一部分，是不是這樣？我們現在所引用的憲法修正案，大家最常引用的美國憲法第五修正案就是一個法官造法的結果。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：其實是闡明憲法規定的內涵。"],["沈委員發惠：對。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：他希望各個……"],["沈委員發惠：事實上法官造法確實是在透過大法官去解釋，本身的功能就有法官造法的功能在裡面啊！所以這個也沒有……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：憲法的規範可以更具體化。"],["沈委員發惠：我個人認為也沒有所謂前所未見，我覺得這個都是言過其實，事實上，它就是一個法官造法，是一個非常符合現在憲政體制的過程。好，這個部分我大概花了一些時間來闡明，也是希望說明讓社會理解，大法官會議所做的憲判字第8號我覺得它事實上根本離實質廢死還非常、非常、非常的遠，它完全沒有廢死，就是程序做得嚴謹而已，這是第一點。","但是我剛剛講過，這裡面大概事實上也會牽涉到幾個問題，尤其是國人大概最關心的，從這個憲法判決出來之後最關心的，就是目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人的相關問題，這個大法官在憲法法院所做的憲判字第8號裡面也做得非常清楚了，而且也是憲法判決裡面的一個重點，就是對於現在受這個宣告它提幾個可以提出非常上訴的要件，可以聲請或者是檢察總長依職權，兩個方法擇一，大概有幾個要件，第一點，犯罪情節非屬最嚴重，這部分看似比較抽象，但事實上它裡面有一些闡明，對於必須要直接故意、必須概括故意、必須擇一故意等有做一些闡明。第二點，如果當初被判死刑引用的是唯一死刑的法條，這個就可以提出非常上訴，對不對？對嘛！第三點，如果過去程序不符合現在所提的這些程序，包括沒有言詞辯論，包括沒有一致決，包括沒有強制辯護，那這個就可以提非常上訴，對不對？第四點，除了這次有聲請解釋的案件以外，其他的案件，即使沒有聲請的案件，也可以用個案救濟，對不對？大概它解釋的就這四個。依照這樣子的大法官會議解釋，目前這37名受死刑宣告的受刑人，你們什麼時候可以檢視完成，到底他們這37個人有哪一些人會符合這些要件？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，剛才委員說的有一點，因為原則上這個憲判如果宣告違憲的話是向後的，例外才針對這37位有聲請的部分……"],["沈委員發惠：對。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：所以不在這個聲請範圍內的話，那不當然可以去適用，至於……"],["沈委員發惠：不當然，但是大法官會議裡面有提……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：對、對、對……"],["沈委員發惠：它有提其他非聲請的案件亦可個案救濟……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：對、對、對……"],["沈委員發惠：對不對？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：那是個案救濟的。至於這37位，我們會儘快，因為大部分都要經過檢察總長去斟酌、審酌以後認為有必要提起非常上訴才去提起，我們一定會儘速的去檢視這些規定。"],["沈委員發惠：好。這個部分，事實上，我們還是希望社會大眾能夠清楚，目前大法官所做的憲法判決裡面要求判處死刑的這個程序必須嚴謹，嚴謹的過程跟情節最嚴重，但是現在我們社會上大家對於是否情節嚴重的判斷這個部分可能在法感情上有落差，因此在這幾天就有一個案件，法官認為這個情節不是屬最嚴重，結果他的死刑被改判無期徒刑定讞，大家對此有所爭執，我認為這個爭議的關鍵點其實是在於就這個犯罪行為是否屬情節最重大的相關心證問題跟社會上面法感情之間的落差，一直都有這個問題，不要說判死刑，連詐欺案，連背信罪，這些都會有法官所做判決跟社會的法感情之間有落差，這個部分我希望能夠改善。","因為時間也到了，最後就補充一個我個人認為非常重要的部分，我希望司法院、法務部及衛福部能夠一起來研擬，因為我們這次憲法判決新增一個，過去只有你在行為時必須身心狀態健全，但現在是在審判中，甚至最後的受刑時，你要有受刑的能力，也就是如果你在被判死刑之後才發瘋、才心神喪失，也不能執行死刑。這個部分社會上最大的質疑就是那我裝瘋賣傻就好了，我裝瘋賣傻，我就不用執行死刑了，這個部分，我想就會回歸到不管你是不是在行為時都一樣，目前是行為時，我只要裝瘋賣傻，說我那時候是瘋的，我就可以免除刑責嗎？顯然不是，因為我們有一套精神鑑定……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：精神鑑定的流程……"],["沈委員發惠：精神鑑定的流程，但是……"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：精神鑑定不是那麼容易……"],["沈委員發惠：但是我要在這裡提醒司法院、法務部，這個憲判出來之後，跟過去最大的差別是什麼？過去精神科醫師做了這樣子的鑑定是針對你行為時的精神狀態做鑑定，我鑑定出來你的精神狀態沒有問題，跟你會不會判死刑，跟你這個犯人會不會死，沒有必然的關係，因為你還必須接受後面的審判，但是所謂受刑能力的鑑定，就直接牽涉到，對精神科醫生來講，我鑑定你精神狀態健全，你就要執行死刑，我鑑定你精神狀態有問題，你就可以不用執行死刑，這個對做精神鑑定的醫師在醫學倫理上面是非常非常重大的挑戰，這個部分，我希望司法院、法務部及衛福部必須要就現在新增這個受刑能力精神鑑定的部分做更嚴謹的、客觀的規定，好不好？以上。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：好，謝謝委員的關心。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。","下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:08:56","end_time":"2024-10-07T09:48:49+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155085","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","duration":536,"start_time":"2024-10-07T09:39:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4939c59cef8dd20f56f0e1b3eec0bde5d39772a8a89b87e0382efefbe895a7a543e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":0.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.38409375000000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.71,"text":"所以你很難讓人家相信是說他上個禮拜發生的是第一起喔他可能過去已經用這樣的一個手法已經獲得許多不法暴力了那我們要問的是說既然有裝監視器那為什麼可以你剛剛也親口承認每個禮拜都會去檢查監視器的畫面但沒有想到到上個禮拜才發現那代表過去有多少頭牛隻已經被不法的手段灌進了水"},{"start":583.79,"end":612.075,"text":"這個部分其實桃園市政府正在調查因為整個案子是已給桃園市政府正式什麼時候可以出來調查報告我們也很關心因為我們也覺得這樣子的事情是不能容許那其他的12個縣市的12個屠宰場12個屠宰場全台13個只有這一個那其他屠宰場有沒有再去做一個釐清一定都要清查一定都要什麼時候做了因為每個禮拜都有看那個錄影帶你剛剛也講了啊就是說每個禮拜都有做但是很明顯的13分之1的這一家屠宰場就在你們的眼皮底下發生了這種灌水事件啊"},{"start":613.513,"end":636.731,"text":"我想這個需要再精進就是說第一個就是錄影機設置的位置有沒有需要再做市長能不能在今天下班前告訴本席也讓國人知道是說我們農業部針對上個禮拜其實已經三天的時間過去了到底做了什麼樣的作為那還有就全台灣13家拖延廠是不是有類似的情況是不是做個釐清好違反作為準則已經開罰了那桃園市政府那邊我們會繼續追進謝謝好部長 來鄭部長"},{"start":640.074,"end":665.177,"text":"最後一個問題一分鐘我想今天很重要還是耐震補強的部分我們覺得耐震補強當然應該做尤其是關心到學童的一個安全那更重要的是到底提出來的這個計畫有沒有能夠含瓜到全部因為我們現在看到全台灣光50年以上的老舊校舍以新北市來講就有差不多200棟"},{"start":667.136,"end":685.541,"text":"你這邊有算喔還要再跟行政院爭取350億的一個預算要推動319棟的整建是重建200棟跟整地119棟那隔光新北市其實就已經200多棟啊所以換言之全台灣到底有多少50年以上的老舊校舍2200棟左右對不對"},{"start":688.697,"end":713.883,"text":"跟委員報告我們在過去從98年到111年這裡面投入了1300多億主要就是解決這一個921大地震當時我們等於說教育部有全面普查老舊教室有涉及到必須要耐震補強或者必須要拆除的那為什麼跟委員補充這一個數據就是說因為這一個"},{"start":717.755,"end":744.203,"text":"這個普查以後經過初期的評估跟專家的負評以後總共這個期間總共除了改善這個補強跟這個拆建有8788棟這裡邊就是第一個階段在921大地震之前所蓋的學校部長能不能針對本席的問題回答問題這包含全國2000棟以上部長我可不可以請教一下您到底有沒有經看過這樣的一個數字"},{"start":745.743,"end":750.547,"text":"本席提一個荒謬點就好啦98年到111年是幾年?14年14年裡面1315億聽起來很多但你總共做了多少?6691棟跟2097棟平均一棟多少錢?"},{"start":766.197,"end":784.906,"text":"一千四百萬而一百一十二年到一百一十四年八十二點三億補強幾棟六四棟拆除幾棟八十八棟平均一棟多少錢五千四百萬而接下來你們要再做什麼要再做三百五十億要補強多少"},{"start":786.087,"end":814.566,"text":"要補強200棟跟拆除190棟平均一棟多少錢?1.1億換言之你的成本其實持續在增加所以本席今天要跟你探究的是看未來不是講過去過去歷任政府大家都在做我們也共同支持但我們希望的是未來要提出相關的計畫做長遠的判斷尤其是超過50年以上的老舊校舍應該做一個系統性的計畫性的來去做整體的考量"},{"start":815.186,"end":842.215,"text":"這樣可以嗎?謝謝委員的一個提醒但是我要跟委員報告的是50年以上如果他沒有安全上的顧慮事實上他可能事實上是對學生、校友是有一個共通的學習經驗性謝謝抱歉對不起喔你們是不是可以尊重一下主席啊麻煩一下好不好那個備詢尊重一下主席好嗎"},{"start":844.907,"end":865.274,"text":"我們請剛才洪孟凱委員所問的事情,那部長會後,因為我們時間已經超過了,能不能用書面仔仔細細、詳詳細細地去回答洪孟凱委員,好不好?那不然等一下,如果我們至此的時候,請部長要稍微把時間掌控一下。以上,謝謝。接下來我們有請陳培鈺委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:33:56 - 09:48:23","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155084","gazette":{"lineno":148,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時34分）麻煩請鄭部長跟農業部杜常次。"],["主席：好，有請鄭部長，還有杜次長。"],["洪委員孟楷：鄭部長，剛剛聽您回答林委員的講法說還要再滾動檢討，適時看學校的反應來做調整，那不就坐實了外界講說「班班有鮮乳」這個政策倉促上路嗎？報導也講倉促上路，採購價低於行情又缺乏冷鏈，變成讓所有的老師要幫學生來抬鮮奶，然後如果這個鮮奶沒有在10點10分大下課的時候送到的話，還要學校各自去買冷鏈冷藏設備，那不就是學校又要再增加相關的負擔，中央這邊要來支應學校嗎？鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，確實當時我們跟農業部合作在乎的就是希望能給學童一個更好的發……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們都希望，我身為家長也希望給學童更好的營養，但更重要的是完善的營養以及後續的配套措施。都市的孩子跟偏鄉的孩子一樣都要照顧，關於這個政策半年後，剛剛你的回答也已經承認，之後要再來滾動檢討，但為什麼開學三個禮拜了，還有很多學生沒有喝到鮮奶？這不就代表這個政策是倉卒上路嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：我想是……"],["洪委員孟楷：怎樣？部長，回答不出來，要農業部來救駕？","來，那我請教次長，今天農業部部長為什麼沒有來？"],["杜次長文珍：我們部長去勘災。"],["洪委員孟楷：去哪邊勘災？"],["杜次長文珍：部長有……"],["洪委員孟楷：有請假，是不是？"],["杜次長文珍：有，有請假、有請假。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，為什麼我會特別這樣講？在教育部的官方網站上有農業部跟教育部給家長的一封信，農業部部長署名還在教育部部長之上，請問這個政策到底是農業部還是教育部主推？鄭部長，要不要回答一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，事實上應該是這麼講，這整個是一個國家政策，跨部會應該如何共同為學童健康發展提供一個更好的環境？我也要感謝委員的提醒，因為在鮮乳的提供上，當然一方面希望能照顧到許多畜牧業業者，但同時在推動的過程中，我們也初步瞭解到，目前臺灣已經有10個縣市是有提供鮮乳給學童食用，所以也利用這個機會讓委員知道，我們是希望全國學童的健康都能夠受到照顧，也能夠跟地方有更緊密的結合，針對整個政策的推動跟健康的照護有一個滾動式檢討，如何跟地方合作、讓學童有更好的發展。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你剛剛講的我都知道，但你還是沒有回答我的問題，我刻意給你時間回答，可能你沒有辦法回答。現在有75%的學校捨棄鮮奶，選擇保久乳，為什麼？因為保存不容易，又沒有辦法一致性的送達，所有老師都在反映說，如果10點10分大下課時沒有辦法送到學校，那就變成至少要放在學校統一集中保管在一個角落，等到11點之後，甚至是營養午餐的時間，才能分配給學生，這中間從10點10分到12點，不就還要再做保存嗎？那保存的責任在誰？就在學校身上，所以學校就要再採購冷藏設備，是不是這樣？這些不都是問題嗎？另外，定價過低也是問題，現在傳出來保久乳每瓶14元，鮮奶每瓶16元，很多人反映說這樣的定價真的太低，可能都不符成本，那未來你們的計畫如何？本席看到你們今天的預算編列也是七億多，並沒有增加多少啊！","今天本席跟召委有提出一個想法，可能也要請部長思考，目前臺灣最有優勢的是什麼？就是便利商店的通路很厲害，山上有便利商店，海邊也有便利商店，它的比例可能比偏鄉都還要高，如果一些偏鄉真的很難送達，我們自己也不容易派冷鏈車等去送的話，有沒有可能研議用所謂的鮮乳兌換券，讓學校老師就近在偏鄉超市、市場或者超商進行兌換？未來的檢討方向能不能這樣來研議？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，事實上，因為這個政策的推動，我們跟地方政府確實保有一定的互動，所以也跟委員報告，我們希望整個政策的執行能更精進，剛才委員所提的建議，我們內部也有得到來自於各地方的反映，包括學校，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們也聽到很多地方反映，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：也會把這個納入未來滾動式修正的一個可能方案之一。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，已經開學一個月了，什麼時候全臺學生都可以喝到鮮奶？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，目前我們大概已經完成採購……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，告訴國人時間點，11月底、12月底前能不能？總是要確認啊！這個政策上路已經一個多月，而學校也不是今天才成立！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，為什麼本席會那麼關心，還有為什麼會質疑你說有滾動檢討？學校並不是一天出現的，學校早就在那邊，今天農業部因為紐西蘭的鮮奶要進口，所以要照顧酪農，我想支持本土產業我們都沒有意見，但重點是政策提出來半年了，你們應該已經想好相關配套，本席現在只想問，全國人民也想知道，今年的這個學期什麼時候全臺灣的學生能夠享受到班班有鮮乳或是班班有保久乳？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我們確實在這個部分有跟地方保持非常密切的……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有辦法確認時間？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前已經有9個縣市完成，我們希望地方政府能夠加速完成這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你這樣子講，會讓人家覺得針對地方情形，你還在狀況外，是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：不會啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，等一下我們召委一定還有這個問題要請教，我覺得你這個態度召委很難接受。","來！農業部，我請教一下有關「灌水牛」事件，怎麼會發生這樣的狀況？更重要的是，上禮拜突然出現「灌水牛」新聞，還是防檢署的獸醫發現的，但防檢署居然表示這個灌水牛沒有問題，把內臟拿掉之後，肉品還是可以進入市場，是這樣嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：報告委員，這應該是兩個層次的問題，第一個，全國有13家牛屠宰場其實都裝設有錄影設備，防檢署每個禮拜都會查看這些錄影設備，雖然當場都有屠檢獸醫師在場，但就怕有漏網，所以他們每個禮拜都會把這些錄影再拿來看，如果發現有違法狀況就會回追，這是第一點……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，上禮拜桃園地區的屠宰場有發生灌水牛事件，是不是？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：有民眾就說牛隻硬生生在40秒內被灌入30公斤的水，可能是灌80公斤，但是牛隻最後增加了30公斤，如果按這樣來計算的話，一年的不法暴利可能近千萬元……"],["杜次長文珍：這當中大概違反……"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛也提到了你們都設有監視器，沒有錯，所以我們才有看到新聞畫面，但本席想問的、全國人民更關心的是，這是第一案嗎？這一家屠宰場使用這樣的非法行為已經多久了？有沒有去了解？"],["杜次長文珍：應該這樣說，這件事情違反兩個法令，第一個是違反動物福利法，因為這是違反動物福利的事情，絕對不允許，所以第一個要開罰的是違反動物福利法。第二個是違反屠宰作業準則，因為牛隻不應該被這樣灌水，不管是任何目的，增加重量更是不允許。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以本席現在要問的是，這家廠商過去有沒有不良紀錄？"],["杜次長文珍：如果有查到的，一定都會罰。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為我們看到畫面裡員工的手法是很駕輕就熟的，所以很難讓人家相信上個禮拜發生的是第一起，可能他們過去已經用這樣的手法獲得許多不法暴利，所以我要問的是，既然有裝監視器，而你剛剛也親口承認，每個禮拜都會去檢查監視器畫面，沒有想到到上個禮拜才發現，代表過去不知有多少頭牛隻已經被不法手段灌進了水。"],["杜次長文珍：這個部分其實桃園市政府正在調查，因為整個案子是移給桃園市政府……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候調查報告可以出來？"],["杜次長文珍：我們也很關心，因為我們也覺得這樣的事情是不能容許的，其他的12個屠宰場……"],["洪委員孟楷：全臺有13個屠宰場，只有這一家？其他屠宰場有沒有再做清查？"],["杜次長文珍：一定都要，一定都要。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候做了？"],["杜次長文珍：因為每個禮拜都有看錄影帶……"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛也講了每個禮拜都有做，但很明顯的，十三分之一的這家屠宰場就在你們的眼皮底下發生了這種灌水事件啊！"],["杜次長文珍：我想這個需要再精進，第一個，錄影機設置的位置有沒有需要再做……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，已經三天的時間過去了，能不能在今天下班前告訴本席，也讓國人知道，農業部針對上個禮拜的事件到底有什麼樣的作為？還有全臺灣13家屠宰場是不是都有類似情況？是不是要做個釐清？"],["杜次長文珍：好，違反作業準則部分已經開罰，至於桃園市政府那邊，我們也會繼續追進度，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，鄭部長，最後一個問題，1分鐘，我想今天很重要的還是耐震補強的部分，耐震補強當然應該做，尤其這關係到學童安全，更重要的是，到底提出來的計畫能不能含括全部？因為我們看到現在全臺灣50年以上的老舊校舍，以新北市來講就有差不多200棟，你這邊有算，還要再跟行政院爭取350億的預算，要推動319棟的整建，也就是重建200棟跟整地119棟，可是光新北市其實就已經兩百多棟了，所以換言之，全臺灣到底有多少50年以上的老舊校舍，2,200棟左右對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們從98年到111年投入了一千三百多億，主要就是解決921大地震……當時教育部有全面普查老舊教室有涉及到必須要耐震補強或者必須要拆除的，為什麼跟委員補充這個數據？就是因為這個普查經過初期的評估及專家複評以後，這段期間改善、補強及拆建有8,788棟，這裡邊就是第一個階段在921大地震之前所蓋的學校……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，能不能針對本席的問題回答？"],["鄭部長英耀：這包含全國2,000棟以上……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我可不可以請教一下，您到底有沒有看過這樣的數字？本席提一個荒謬點就好了，98年到111年是幾年？14年，14年裡面1,315億聽起來很多，但你總共做了多少？6,691棟跟2,097棟，平均1棟多少錢？1,400萬。112年到114年82.3億補強幾棟？64棟；拆除幾棟？88棟，平均1棟多少錢？5,400萬。接下來你們要再做什麼？要再花350億，要補強多少？要補強200棟跟拆除190棟，平均1棟多少錢？1.1億。換言之，你的成本其實持續在增加，所以本席今天要跟你探究的是看未來，不是講過去，過去歷任政府大家都在做，我們也共同支持，但我們希望的是未來要提出相關的計畫、做長遠的判斷，尤其是超過50年以上的老舊校舍，應該要系統性、計畫性的去做整體的考量，這樣可以嗎？"],["主席：好，洪孟楷委員時間到了……"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒……"],["主席：這個部分是不是能夠……"],["鄭部長英耀：但是我要跟委員報告的是……"],["主席：對不起，部長……"],["鄭部長英耀：50年以上如果它沒有安全上的顧慮，事實上對學生、校友是有一個共通的學習經驗，抱歉。"],["主席：對不起，你們是不是可以尊重一下主席？麻煩一下好不好，備詢尊重一下主席好嗎？","剛才洪孟楷委員所問的事情，因為時間已經超過了，請部長用書面仔仔細細、詳詳細細的回答洪孟楷委員，好不好？拜託一下，如果我們制止的時候，請部長要稍微把時間掌控一下，以上，謝謝。","接下來有請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葉元之","范雲","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張嘉郡","洪申翰","張雅琳","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幫委員第一個是你剛才說的這個數字其實現在只有10萬噸 減了10萬噸左右但是我們現在在發包左右發包所以應該在明年會加速的來進行所以也請委員再隨時盯著我看那個數字"},{"start":490.365,"end":506.467,"text":"那資源循環促進法呢其實目前我們正在review當中因為我上任之後也跟同仁談了有的說要合在一起但是有的要拆開所以我們做好一個定義了所以目前我們現在重新在審思然後也把產業產官學全部都找在一起大家一起談"},{"start":507.108,"end":529.003,"text":"所以我們預計年底希望能夠行政院能夠給我們同意然後我們再送到貴院能夠來進行審查然後我們的減量的目標其實我必須說我們要重新建立一個國人對於這個資源回收的新的觀念目前的確都忘光了那有些縣市的其實都混在一起很嚴重特別是垃圾多的地方大概就是露天裸露多的地方就是沒做好"},{"start":529.423,"end":551.261,"text":"那彰化是像這種破帶檢查是要給大力的支持的我們希望複製到全台灣然後當然啦這個我們主要的生態系裡面網購的業者外送的業者其實要負很大的責任所以我也會找他們能夠來談一談要善盡企業的社會責任不能只賺錢所以這個部分我們會積極的來進行因為他們是佔了一個很大的比例"},{"start":551.561,"end":581.561,"text":"﹗"},{"start":583.244,"end":584.447,"text":"資源循環促進法"},{"start":585.999,"end":612.046,"text":"現在就是說還要花一點點時間那個一點點時間是多少點點我們希望年底年底可以年底前可以送到我們已經跟行政院的長官也在討論說因為我們過去是把它併在一起但是併在一起太複雜了現在希望把它能夠把它稍微切開有一些功能我們的精神也不大一樣了希望年底能夠那個送進來立法院剛剛部長講投核是到可是最後還是要跟你談預算"},{"start":613.306,"end":639.284,"text":"因為有錢才能辦事情上個會期我就引用民間團體的數據你的中端處理跟源頭管理的話相差了22倍那今年你在環保團體在行政院抗議的時候你們也出來喊話說119年編列1.2億來做源頭的管理減量的這一部分到114年會把預算提高到2.76億可是我們現在看到你送出來的事實上是1.37億當有進步了"},{"start":641.425,"end":660.162,"text":"﹗"},{"start":660.282,"end":686.333,"text":"部長垃圾山處理你的目標跟策略源頭管理也要盡早對外說明讓大家安心那第二個預算編列項目目前我們覺得雖然有增加可是好像還是很大的落差如果一直強調要源頭管理你也提過蓋了20座的紅化爐都再蓋也是處理不了的話那源頭管理這麼重要的話你的預算這麼大的落差怎麼可能解決掉問題"},{"start":687.975,"end":692.825,"text":"會後就麻煩把這相關的我提出來的結論提到我們辦公室來 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:27:44 - 09:39:19","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155083","gazette":{"lineno":194,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時27分）有請彭部長。"],["主席：彭部長，請。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早，也感謝召委安排這個很重要的議題。不過在今天質詢之前，我想先感謝一下我們清潔隊的所有成員，因為災後復原、街道整理還有加班來收家裡的垃圾都有勞我們這些成員。","關於垃圾的問題，我在上個會期就質詢過兩次了，垃圾減量減了十年多，可是好像越減越多，天下雜誌9月的時候就有報導臺灣的垃圾總產量已經持續增高，近5年大概已經成長了7%，去年達到3,219萬公噸，這些垃圾比101還要高；臺灣每日的人均垃圾量是1.36公斤，近5年大概成長了16.7%，我們已經超越韓國、日本跟新加坡，日本跟新加坡連年減少一般廢棄量，但臺灣卻是連年增加。所以想問一下部長，臺灣的垃圾為什麼會越減越多？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，這兩天我也跟我同事討論說這個垃圾量的計算是怎麼去處理，我本身過去是一個資料科學家，我發現這個處理的算法還有進步的空間，所以報告委員，再給我幾個月，希望下個會期可以跟委員提出一個新的方案，如何算那個垃圾量，包含一般垃圾跟事業廢棄物，每個縣市都不大一樣；第二個，我們現在主要是外送業者還有所謂的網購其實量很大、很大，這個其實也造就了我們的垃圾量居高不下。另外一個是我們的焚化爐，因為過去都仰賴焚化爐，現在的清運量等於是燃燒量不夠了，所以才會造成天下雜誌報導的情形。"],["林委員月琴：好。上次質詢本席就有提到，我們看到暫置場、掩埋場離市區不遠，可是離學校很近，每當發生火災意外的時候，對小朋友當然就會造成比較嚴重的空污傷害。今年我從天下雜誌裡面的研究看到，我們六都的垃圾量，尤其我認養的桃園市有128萬噸是六都第四，可是今年我們桃園市審計處給出來的報告，桃園的廢棄物妥善處理率竟然是六都的最後，所以桃園許多的垃圾暫置場已經成為垃圾山了，包括觀音的保障垃圾掩埋場、楊梅區的員本垃圾掩埋場、中壢的忠福垃圾掩埋場跟龍潭的店子湖垃圾掩埋場，這是一個快速興起的城市勢必都會遇到的一個問題，上個會期我放同樣的一個簡報，部長，關於垃圾山的這個問題，不僅只有惡臭和污染水源的質疑，還存在一些崩塌、火災的問題，當然這次報告你也特別提到未來怎麼處理，可是我也想問一下，我質詢到現在也四個月了，不知道環境部如何幫助桃園市環保局處理這個垃圾問題？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個是惡臭的問題，有些我已經看第二次了，惡臭問題經過一些清消處理其實有改善，但是我必須說，可能有時候又有味道、又會再起來；第二個是火災的問題，我們有協助裝置監測的設備，也顯著的改善了，但是前一陣子苗栗還是有發生這個事情，我們會特別注意；第三個，桃園市政府環保局其實也非常的積極，他們也跟我們報告說，希望大概兩到三年內能夠把這個處理掉，他們會先用覆土的方式把露天裸露的部分先處理掉。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝部長。本來我很擔心環境部會不會放生桃園，可是看起來在我質詢之後，環境部的確編列了3,927萬元，協助桃園市政府針對垃圾山的這些問題來處理。","環境部目前在處理垃圾這一塊的時候，我看到的是有決心、有目標、有策略，也有許多媒體露出對外喊話，包含彭部長提到兩年內要讓全臺53座垃圾山消失，剛才的報告是說三年，可是我怎麼算都很難理解，怎麼講呢？如果1到8月減少了4個，從53降到49，依你對媒體講的兩年，尤其用1到8月來算的話，事實上只會減少掉18場；如果依你剛剛所提三年的話，從你上任以來，如果從6月起算的話，的確可以減少的比較多一點，但還是不會把53場消滅掉，我不知道到底落差是什麼？所以等一下也要請你再做說明。","你在南投的時候也提到未來要建一個新的焚化爐，這些都是你對媒體的說詞，關於細緻的管理你也提到，未來要用AI平臺來掌握垃圾量，還要強化垃圾掩埋場的防災措施，甚至提到環境敏感地區，像新竹新豐跟桃園觀音你都要先來處理。但我還是要回到這次的主題，如果彭部長在接受媒體採訪的時候都說，臺灣的垃圾問題可能再蓋個20座的焚化爐都沒有辦法解決，那問題的根源就是在源頭管理、降低垃圾的製造量。","今天媒體都在現場，你過去也參加非常多的研討會、論壇，時常大談某種減塑或垃圾減量的方法學、策略、效益，可是政府應該要談的是目標、手段跟社會溝通，所以我想問這三個，我們的垃圾減量目標是什麼？因為2023年的垃圾量已經來到3,200萬噸，未來環境部三年、五年、八年的目標會是什麼？第二個，你的垃圾減量手段是什麼？目標不是只有口號，我們目前推的減塑政策是要求業者綠色包裝，點到為止、交代了事嗎？那一樣問的是三年、五年、八年你會推出什麼樣的手段、達到什麼樣的效果？還有第三個，資源循環促進法的進度是什麼？環境部是不是已經討論完畢送到行政院？麻煩部長回答這三個。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個是你剛才說的這個數字，其實現在減了10萬噸左右，但是我們現在正在發包，所以應該在明年會加速進行，也請委員隨時盯著我、看那個數字。","有關資源循環促進法，其實目前我們正在review當中，因為我上任之後也跟同仁談了，有的說要合在一起、但是有的要拆開，所以我們做好一個定義了，目前我們重新再審視，然後也把產、官、學全部都找在一起、大家一起談，所以我們希望年底行政院能夠同意，然後我們再送到貴院來進行審查。","有關我們的減量目標，我必須說我們要重新建立國人對於資源回收的新觀念。目前的確都忘光了，有些縣市其實都混在一起、很嚴重，特別是垃圾多的地方，大概就是露天裸露多的地方沒做好，像彰化的這種破袋檢查給予大力的支持，我們希望複製到全臺灣。當然在我們所有的生態系裡面，網購的業者、外送的業者其實要負很大的責任，所以我也會找他們來談一談，要善盡企業的社會責任，不能只賺錢，所以這個部分我們會積極來進行，因為他們占了很大的比例，從源頭減量、每個人願意開始做，這才是政府要做的事。當然我們過去也辦了很多示範案例，例如我到很多的地方去宣導市場減塑，但是我必須說，那是讓大家能夠感覺到要做這件事，但是要整個生態系改變我還需要一些時間，例如要透過產業界生態系建立起來才有辦法做得到，所以我們這個部分會改變、跟過去的方式有點不一樣。"],["林委員月琴：好。那資源循環促進法的進度呢？"],["彭部長啓明：現在就是還要花一點點時間，我們內部正在討論。"],["林委員月琴：那個一點點時間是多少點點？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望年底前可以送到，我們已經跟行政院的長官討論，因為我們過去是把它併在一起，但是併在一起太複雜了，現在希望能夠把它稍微切開，有一些功能、我們的精神也不大一樣了，所以我們要……"],["林委員月琴：希望年底能夠送進來立法院。"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["林委員月琴：剛剛部長講的頭頭是道，可是最後我還是要跟你談預算，因為有錢才能辦事情，上個會期我就引用民間團體的數據，你的終端處理跟源頭管理相差了22倍，今年環保團體在行政院抗議的時候你們也出來喊話說：112年編列1.2億來做源頭管理減量的部分，到114年會把預算提高到2.76億。可是我們現在看到你送出來的事實上是1.37億，當然有進步了，過去22倍，現在到15.7倍，可是經過我辦公室再翻閱預算書，好像看到預算沒有這麼地高，你對民間講的是2.76億，可是現在編出來的是1.36億。","所以今天我的結論是：部長，有關垃圾山處理，你的目標跟策略源頭管理也要儘早對外說明、讓大家安心；第二個，有關預算編列項目，目前我們覺得雖然有增加，可是好像還是有很大的落差，如果一直強調要源頭管理，你也提過再蓋20座焚化爐也是處理不了，源頭管理這麼重要的話，你的預算有這麼大的落差怎麼可能解決掉問題？會後就麻煩把這些我提出來的相關結論提到我們辦公室來，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長。","接續請涂權吉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:16:54","end_time":"2024-10-07T09:35:49+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155082","委員名稱":"黃國昌","duration":1014,"start_time":"2024-10-07T09:18:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b49379f1bf7a5f35bbc27ccd4a11965e08ac772a8a89b87e0382afd2c0ee9bd3f0fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.236593750000001,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.84346875,"end":11.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.180968750000002,"end":13.480343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.58096875,"end":18.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.20096875,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.559093750000002,"end":25.292843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.68909375,"end":32.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.75596875,"end":33.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.62909375,"end":40.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.45096875,"end":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那個有申請但是這還要經過人審會通過以後通過了沒有人審會還沒有開明天會開明天會開但你自己的意願是要回歸審判嗎因為所有的調動都是會需要法官表示意願的一旦你回歸審判以後秘書長的位置會有誰代理"},{"start":59.126,"end":62.015,"text":"我想假設有新的這個"},{"start":63.854,"end":66.475,"text":"按照司法院秘書長代理所適用的法規會後再請您提供是規定在司法院組織法還是司法院初步規程裡"},{"start":95.066,"end":95.646,"text":"還有沒有來看一下齁就是"},{"start":123.422,"end":139.912,"text":"死刑判決要經過各級法院和議庭的一致決我們現在死刑是採取強制上訴的制度不管在第一審也好、第二審也好、第三審也好你要判死刑只有一個選擇就是要一致決這樣的解釋沒有錯吧?要判死刑就是一致決有哪一個國家是採取這樣的制度?"},{"start":150.602,"end":155.546,"text":"請委員指教,因為我們是一兆錢"},{"start":175.114,"end":201.537,"text":"我對於我們的憲法法庭自己立法立到這種程度我老實講我是嘆為觀止你要強化正當法律程序這沒有問題但問題是什麼憲法法庭利用做成判決或解釋的時候自己扮演起立法者的角色還創造了一個獨立全球的制度我只有看過一審的時候是40審嘛"},{"start":203.513,"end":204.233,"text":"如果高等法院判決死刑"},{"start":231.767,"end":247.796,"text":"上述到最高法院最高法院有四個法官認為這個死刑可以維持因為屬於情節最嚴重之罪有一個法官不這麼認為此時這個時候最高法院的何一庭應該怎麼處理廢棄發揮還是自圍判決如果說有堅持堅持那當然何一庭他們會會去溝通協調溝通協調那他們就4比1啊"},{"start":261.505,"end":273.387,"text":"實際上面到底有多少案件是4比1的我沒有在跟你講過去的事啦我說現在的事情啦現在有個高等法院三個法官一字決判死刑"},{"start":274.899,"end":291.935,"text":"強制上訴嘛到最高法院嘛四個最高法院的法官認為這是屬於情節最嚴重之罪一個最高法院的法官不這麼認為請問這個時候按照憲法法庭他所做出來的裁判最高法院的回憶題應該怎麼處理自為判決還是撤銷發回我想"},{"start":293.877,"end":308.219,"text":"如果說他要撤銷發回他當然有可能就要撤銷發回請事實審再周真佐如果說他真的要自己判那當然不能判死刑沒有判死刑的話就照我們的評議的最重的不能過"},{"start":308.86,"end":311.241,"text":"實務上面意見不一致怎麼處理這件事情到目前為止都是採取過半數的多數決嘛"},{"start":329.104,"end":329.364,"text":"所以這個時候重施法院"},{"start":354.7,"end":369.014,"text":"憲法法庭做出檢視以後他的檢視必須要夠清楚讓下級審所有法院的法官知道接下來我們要怎麼做裁判所以4比1的時候是我們的評議規則要改變就聽那一個人的是嗎"},{"start":370.905,"end":371.645,"text":"好 第二個當最高法院 認為"},{"start":396.277,"end":424.535,"text":"五個都同意應該要判死刑屬於情節最嚴重之罪但情節最嚴重之罪是我們憲法法庭所增加現在法律所沒有的概念非常抽象的要件概念非常抽象因為我國的所有刑事實體法法典裡面沒有一個構成要件要素叫做情節最嚴重憲法法庭自己本身的判決有沒有違反法律明確性恐怕"},{"start":425.738,"end":426.299,"text":"我的說明有沒有錯誤"},{"start":452.352,"end":466.96,"text":"應該是正確的應該是正確嘛到憲法法庭了以後問題來了憲法法庭15位大法官對於是不是符合他們所做成的情節最嚴重之罪請問要不要求一字決"},{"start":468.806,"end":497.938,"text":"目前沒有要求目前沒有要求所以這個邏輯是什麼是不是可以請戴琳秘書長幫我們開示一下下級審法院的法官要死刑都要一致決但憲法法庭如果要維持死刑的判決可以不要一致決這個是我們憲法法庭所揭示的標準嗎這個叫做沒有合理的懷疑嗎這個叫做程序保障最嚴密嗎還是大法官比較大所以不需要一致決來請戴琳秘書長"},{"start":499.022,"end":521.594,"text":"中文報告因為憲法法庭不會自己做死刑判決所以說因剛才要說說你你要維持死刑判決先等一下啦你說憲法法庭不會自己做自己的判決你講這句話就錯了嘛我們過去的大法官在大法官解釋裡面創設了自己多少法律所沒有明文的規定的權限當初定暫時狀態的處分就是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":524.198,"end":540.612,"text":"怎麼會憲法法庭沒有辦法自己做自己的判決做的可多了欸創設了一堆他的法律所沒有的權限代理秘書長事件的實務可能還是要熟一點啦我還是回來原來的問題啊請問憲法法庭的判決要不要求一致決"},{"start":542.093,"end":557.749,"text":"跟委員報告目前憲法法庭是沒有要求要一致決那奇怪了我們憲法法庭不是說程序保障要最嚴密下級審都要一致決只有他們自己不要一致決這個法理啊非常的精深啊是不是可以請代理秘書長幫我們解釋一下因為"},{"start":560.956,"end":569.041,"text":"當然不會自己判決死刑嘛你上訴到最高法院的時候是不是要以判決違背法令當理由是吧一個特定的案子是不是屬於情節最嚴重之罪看法不一樣的時候是不是屬於判決違背法令"},{"start":591.411,"end":612.148,"text":"我這樣說沒有錯吧對嘛 所以你即使是法律省的最高法院按照我們憲判字所做出來的解釋都要求一致決啊我的說明有錯嗎請你用麥克風回答這樣子大家根本不知道你的答案是什麼嘛那一樣嘛"},{"start":613.413,"end":637.835,"text":"如果最高法院是法律審要求一致決我以最高法院所維持的死刑判決是不是屬於情節最嚴重之罪申請憲法裁判憲法法庭做的一樣啊他只要維持了就是死刑啊他不維持的話那個死刑可能就要被撤銷了嘛所以我的問題來啦憲法法庭的判決要不要求一致決"},{"start":639.332,"end":657.827,"text":"那你剛剛給大家的說明是從憲判字裡面並沒有要求憲法法庭要一致決嘛我的說明有沒有錯對嘛 所以我們的大法官他要求的是什麼你們下級審法院全部都要一致決啊但我憲法法庭可以不用沒有關係啊搞成這個樣子現有的死刑犯終審判決是不是都有一致決"},{"start":667.16,"end":696.46,"text":"這個查完了沒有?現在還在調查調卷了解當中奇怪才37個案子欸啊這個調卷要這麼久?還需要多久?我們當然盡快盡快嘛因為這個牽涉到人家能不能救濟嘛如果牽涉到人家能不能救濟按照你剛剛所講的啦最終審的有沒有一致決這件事情你一定要清出來嘛你清出來才知道接下來要怎麼處理嘛"},{"start":697.812,"end":700.333,"text":"國民法官判死有要求一字決嗎?"},{"start":724.229,"end":742.318,"text":"跟委員報告國民法官判死沒有現在三分之二那剛才有跟委員報告那憲判字之後就是其他其中三位職業法官必須自決然後如果說不是啊這就很奇怪了嘛這又回到了我們憲判字的解釋嘛他不是要求程序保障最嚴密嗎"},{"start":744.091,"end":772.345,"text":"那為什麼國民法官的不要求一字決這個我看不懂啊跟委員報告因為國民法官法不在這一次那個四限標的範圍這次四限標的是四條我一開始有報告四條刑法的條文所以大法官也有講李懷宇也有講如果說將來大院或者是我們研議的時候也認為說國民法官的沒有啊你們當初研議的時候許中立送來的版本只要過半數捏"},{"start":774.861,"end":781.889,"text":"這是你們司法院送來的版本耶司法院送給立法院審議法案的版本司法院院長要不要點頭"},{"start":783.456,"end":805.579,"text":"需要還是不需要跟委員報告當然要但是司法院本身並不等於憲法法庭這個我知道啊我現在只有在問司法院的立場嘛因為你剛剛已經逃脫到從憲法法庭到司法院接下來的立法政策嘛那我現在就直接請教司法院嘛就國民法官法的部分司法院有打算要求一致決嗎"},{"start":809.523,"end":821.252,"text":"還要研議多久不是啦 因為我覺得司法院啊很莫名其妙當初國民法官法送來的時候說要求只要過半數就好啦奇怪了我們司法院的立場是變來變去喔"},{"start":827.708,"end":855.681,"text":"因為我們那時候並沒有憲判字出來指示所以說跟當時的時空恐怕不一樣好了最後一個問題死刑限於個案犯罪情節最嚴重這個案犯罪情節最嚴重怎麼解釋我想那個憲判字的理由裡面已經有講那法官在個案裁量的時候對啊但是他都沒有給解釋喔他有給那個正面跟負面的他全部都是用什麼用舉例的方式喔"},{"start":857.168,"end":885.14,"text":"所有的法律人就會要求啦什麼叫做情節最嚴重這主要有個解釋吧如果連大法官自己都解釋不出來那請問以後要下級審法院的法官要如何解釋適用啊就看他們的例子喔好那你說要看他們的例子來我問下面例子是動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪結果請問這是三者則一就是屬於情節最嚴重還是三個全部都要具備"},{"start":887.148,"end":907.453,"text":"跟委員報告齁 那實務上面的這個法官大概會綜合考量 也不是沒有沒有 先停一下齁我先不要推到未來實務上的法官依照憲法法庭解釋 解釋的內容這三個 犯罪動機與目的手段與參與程度 犯罪結果 它全部都有歷史嘛那這個是要同時具備"},{"start":911.926,"end":927.896,"text":"還是其中一個滿足就可以了這很重要啊我想跟委員報告齁因為我們當法官的這麼久去審判歷史這些東西我相信大部分的法官都有能力就這邊去沒有沒有沒有我沒有說法官沒能力現在我只說就這三個歷史的是要同時具備"},{"start":929.037,"end":944.282,"text":"還是擇一就好不好意思我請他這個問題回答完就結束了跟委員報告就是綜合判斷因為每個案的情形每一個情況都不一樣今天說要去切割說一定是擇一我想這一部分恐怕跟訴訟十五是不相符的啦"},{"start":945.253,"end":966.02,"text":"你怎麼會跟訴訟實務不相符啊你以後就這個情節最嚴重是動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪的結果是不是都要求他所立誓的情況他每一個當然都要去做斟酌但是每一個情況不一樣你在做良心"},{"start":967.113,"end":974.266,"text":"判斷的時候每一個的比重多少法官應該本應他的確信依照他的良心去做斟酌今天不是一加一等於二的問題訴訟也沒有那麼單純"},{"start":976.448,"end":996.536,"text":"沒有啦 這不是1加1等於2的問題我時間到了啦 請你再冷靜的回去想一想我今天問的這個問題 我跟你保證未來的審判實務上每一個法官全部都會遇到這樣的問題他在斟酌這三個要件要素的時候是不是都要符合大法官所講的歷史"},{"start":998.417,"end":1011.588,"text":"這影響非常深遠請秘書長稍微自己想一下這個問題如果沒有解決的話未來要負責審判的法官根本就無所適從好 謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:18:55 - 09:35:49","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155082","gazette":{"lineno":171,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時19分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請司法院代理秘書長及法務部部長。"],["主席：請代理秘書長、部長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：代理秘書長好，請問你會代理到什麼時候？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：代理到什麼時候，我也沒有辦法了解。"],["黃委員國昌：你不是申請回歸審判了嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是，有申請，但是還要經過人審會通過，通過以後……"],["黃委員國昌：通過了沒有？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：人審會還沒有開，明天會開。"],["黃委員國昌：明天會開，但你自己的意願是要回歸審判。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為所有的調動都會需要法官表示意願。"],["黃委員國昌：一旦你回歸審判以後，秘書長的位置會由誰代理？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想假設有新的院長，院長當然會指派秘書長，在秘書長還沒產生之前，我不知道，院裡面或者是人審會，也許會希望我繼續代理，這個都有可能，我現在沒有辦法確定。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，沒有關係，按照司法院秘書長代理所適用的法規，會後再請你提供，好嗎？是規定在司法院組織法還是司法院處務規程裡？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：可能是處務規程，但是我們要回去再確定一下。"],["黃委員國昌：你不用確認了，我跟你講，司法院處務規程沒有，你等一下回去看就知道了，我看不到你們代理的法規到底是什麼。因為司法院畢竟是司法院嘛，如果司法院自己在處理一些事情的時候都沒有依照法律的話，國人看了會很心寒。","好，我們來看一下，就是死刑判決要經過各級法院合議庭的一致決，我們現在死刑是採取強制上訴的制度，不管在第一審也好，第二審也好，第三審也好，你要判死刑只有一個選擇，就是要一致決，這樣的解釋沒有錯吧？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：判死刑就是一致決。"],["黃委員國昌：請問有哪一個國家是採取這樣的制度？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，那個……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我時間有限，你針對問題回答就好了。有哪一個國家是採取我們現在憲法法庭，有人說它立法，有人說它造法，不管是立法還是造法，有哪一個國家採行這樣的制度？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：請委員指教，因為我們是依照……"],["黃委員國昌：你不要請我指教嘛，我對於我們的憲法法庭自己立法立到這種程度，老實講，我是嘆為觀止啊！你要強化正當法律程序，這沒有問題，但問題是憲法法庭利用做成判決或解釋的時候，自己扮演起立法者的角色，還創造了一個獨步全球的制度啊！我只有看過，一審的時候因為是事實審，要求一致決，在美國大部分的州都是這個樣子，這個沒有問題，但我從來沒有看過，除了事實審以外，上訴到法律審的時候也要求一致決，如果上訴到法律審的時候也要求一致決，那問題很嚴重啊！我為什麼說問題很嚴重？我具體請教一下代理秘書長，如果高等法院判決死刑，上訴到最高法院，最高法院有四個法官認為這個死刑可以維持，因為屬於情節最嚴重之罪，有一個法官不這麼認為，此時最高法院的合議庭應該怎麼處理？廢棄發回還是自為判決？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：如果說有堅持，當然合議庭他們會去溝通協調，他們……"],["黃委員國昌：就四比一啊！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：實際上到底有多少案件是四比一的，那……"],["黃委員國昌：我沒有在跟你講過去的事啦！我說的是現在的事情，現在高等法院三個法官一致決判死刑，強制上訴到最高法院，四個最高法院的法官認為這是屬於情節最嚴重之罪，一個最高法院的法官不這麼認為，請問這個時候按照憲法法庭所做出來的裁判，最高法院的合議庭應該怎麼處理？自為判決還是撤銷發回？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想如果它要撤銷發回，當然有可能就要撤銷發回，請事實審再做斟酌，如果說它真的要自己判，那當然不能判死刑，沒有判死刑的話，就照我們評議的，最重的不能過就減，恐怕得這樣，但是實際上的情形，恐怕要看實際上合議庭他們怎麼去做處理，實務上面運作這麼久，就意見不一致的合議庭怎麼處理，其實有一定的……"],["黃委員國昌：實務上面意見不一致怎麼處理這件事情，到目前為止都是採取過半數的多數決嘛！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：實際上面有些時候……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，你採取過半數的多數決就不會有問題嘛！大家有不同意見的時候，在評議簿上面寫意見嘛！如果可以講到大家意見都一致，就意見一致，就不會有在評議簿上記的問題。我現在的問題是說，當最高法院的法官是四比一的時候，所以司法院憲法法庭做出的解釋必須要夠清楚啊！","讓下級審所有法院的法官知道接下來我們要怎麼做裁判嘛，所以四比一的時候是我們的評議規則要改變，就聽那一個人的，是嗎？這個是我的問題啦！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我知道，因為憲法法庭已經要求說必須一致決，只要有一位堅持不肯，那我想合議庭本身必須去做……我個人認為說這跟我們在評議的時候，因為沒有辦法取得多數意見過半，還是多數意見可能還是……"],["黃委員國昌：好，第二個，當最高法院認為5個都同意，應該要判死刑，屬於情節最嚴重之罪，但情節最嚴重之罪是我們憲法法庭所增加現在法律所沒有的，概念非常抽象的要件，概念非常抽象，因為我國的所有刑事實體法法典裡面，沒有一個構成要件要素叫做情節最嚴重，憲法法庭自己本身的判決有沒有違反法律明確性，恐怕自己都必須要接受檢驗，我國的刑法典什麼時候有一個構成要件要素叫做情節最嚴重？但沒有關係，最高法院的法官5個都認為這是情節最嚴重，被告他可以聲請什麼？憲法裁判嘛！要求憲法法院審查這是不是情節最嚴重，我的說明有沒有錯誤？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：應該是正確的。"],["黃委員國昌：應該是正確嘛！好，到憲法法庭了以後，問題來了，憲法法庭15位大法官對於是不是符合他們所做成的情節最嚴重之罪，請問要不要求一致決？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：目前沒有要求。"],["黃委員國昌：目前沒有要求，所以這個邏輯是什麼？是不是可以請代理秘書長幫我們開示一下，下級審法院的法官要死刑都要一致決，但憲法法庭如果要維持死刑的判決可以不要一致決，這個是我們憲法法庭所揭示的標準嗎？這個叫做沒有合理的懷疑嗎？這個叫做程序保障最嚴密嗎？還是大法官比較大，所以不需要一致決？請代理秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為憲法法庭不會自己做死刑判決，所以剛才要求說你要維持死刑判決……"],["黃委員國昌：先等一下啦！你說憲法法庭不會自己做自己的判決，你講這句話就錯了！我們過去的大法官在大法官解釋裡面創設了自己多少法律所沒有明文規定的權限，當初定暫時狀態的處分就是這個樣子嘛！怎麼會憲法法庭沒有辦法自己做自己的判決？做的可多了耶！創設了一堆他們法律所沒有的權限，代理秘書長，釋憲的實務可能還是要熟一點啦！我還是回來原來的問題啦，請問憲法法庭的判決要不要求一致決？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，目前憲法法庭是沒有要求要一致決。"],["黃委員國昌：那奇怪了，我們憲法法庭不是說程序保障要最嚴密，下級審都要一致決，只有他們自己不要一致決，這個法理非常地精深！是不是可以請代理秘書長幫我們解釋一下？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為大法官憲判字也只要求宣判死刑的案件需要一致決，也沒有說其他的部分要一致決，憲法法庭目前就我所知，也沒有自己去判決死刑，將來是不是像委員……"],["黃委員國昌：它當然不會自己判決死刑嘛！你上訴到最高法院的時候，是不是要以判決違背法令當理由？是吧！一個特定的案子是不是屬於情節最嚴重之罪，看法不一樣的時候是不是屬於判決違背法令，我這樣說沒有錯吧？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：當然這個算是法律......"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以你即使是法律審的最高法院，按照我們憲判字所做出來的解釋都要求一致決，我的說明有錯嗎？請你用麥克風回答，這樣大家根本不知道你的答案是什麼。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：一樣嘛！如果最高法院是法律審要求一致決，我以最高法院所維持的死刑判決是不是屬於情節最嚴重之罪聲請憲法裁判，憲法法庭做的一樣啊，它只要維持了就是死刑，它不維持的話，那個死刑可能就要被撤銷了嘛！所以我的問題來了，憲法法庭的判決要不要求一致決？你剛剛給大家的說明是，從憲判字裡面並沒有要求憲法法庭要一致決嘛，我的說明有沒有錯？對嘛！所以我們的大法官他要求的是什麼？你們下級審法院全部都要一致決，但我憲法法庭可以不用沒有關係，搞成這個樣子，現有的死刑犯終審判決是不是都有一致決？這個查完了沒有？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：現在還在調查調卷了解當中。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪，才37個案子耶！這個調卷要這麼久？還需要多久？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們當然儘快。"],["黃委員國昌：儘快嘛！因為這個牽涉到人家能不能救濟，如果牽涉到人家能不能救濟，按照你剛剛所講的，最終審有沒有一致決這件事情你一定要清出來嘛，你清出來才知道接下來要怎麼處理嘛！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，現在只是指三審一致決……"],["黃委員國昌：我知道，所以清完沒有？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：現在正在調卷查，因為將來要非常上訴還要經過檢察總長提出……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們會儘快。"],["黃委員國昌：查完了以後函復本委員會所有委員，可以嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：國民法官判死有要求一致決嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，國民法官判死沒有，現在三分之二，剛才有跟委員報告，憲判字之後就是其中3位職業法官必須一致決，然後如果說……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！這就很奇怪了嘛，這又回到了我們憲判字的解釋嘛，它不是要求程序保障最嚴密嗎？那為什麼國民法官的不要求一致決？這個我看不懂！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為國民法官法不在這一次釋憲標的範圍，這次釋憲標的是四條，我一開始有報告，四條刑法的條文，所以大法官也有講，理由裡面有講，如果說將來大院或者是我們研議的時候，也認為說國民法官的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊！你們當初研議的時候，許宗力送來的版本只要過半數耶！這是你們司法院送來的版本耶！是司法院送給立法院審議法案的版本，司法院院長要不要點頭？需要還是不需要？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然要，但是司法院本身並不等於憲法法庭……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我知道啊，我現在只有在問司法院的立場，因為你剛剛已經逃脫到從憲法法庭到司法院接下來的立法政策嘛！那我現在就直接請教司法院，就國民法官法的部分，司法院有打算要求一致決嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們會進行進一步的研議，本來就要……"],["黃委員國昌：還要研議多久？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們儘快，現在……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，因為我覺得司法院很莫名其妙，當初國民法官法送來的時候，說要求只要過半數就好，奇怪了，我們司法院的立場是變來變去喔？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為我們那時候並沒有憲判字出來指示，所以說跟當時的時空恐怕不一樣。"],["黃委員國昌：好，最後一個問題，死刑限於個案犯罪情節最嚴重，這個案犯罪情節最嚴重怎麼解釋？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想那個憲判字的理由裡面已經有講，法官在個案裁量的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，但是它都沒有給解釋喔！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：它有給正面跟負面……"],["黃委員國昌：它全部都是用什麼？用舉例的方式喔！所有的法律人就會要求，什麼叫做情節最嚴重？這總要有個解釋吧！如果連大法官自己都解釋不出來，那請問以後要下級審法院的法官如何解釋適用？就看他們的例子喔？好，你說要看他們的例子，來，我問下面，例子是動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪結果，請問這是三者擇一就是屬於情節最嚴重，還是三個全部都要具備？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，實務上面法官大概會綜合考量，也不是……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，我先不要推到未來實務上的法官，依照憲法法庭解釋的內容，這三個，犯罪動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪結果，全部都有例示嘛！這個是要同時具備，還是其中一個滿足就可以了？這很重要啊！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想跟委員報告，因為我們當法官這麼久去審判，例示這些東西，我相信大部分的法官都有能力就這邊去……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我沒有說法官沒能力，現在我只說，就這三個例示的，是要同時具備還是擇一就好？不好意思，我請他這個問題回答完就結束了。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，就是綜合判斷，因為每個案的情形、每一個情況都不一樣，今天說要去切割一定是擇一，我想這一部分恐怕跟訴訟實務是不相符的啦！"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼會跟訴訟實務不相符？你就這個情節最嚴重是動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪的結果，是不是都要求它所例示的情況？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：它每一個當然都要去做斟酌，但是每一個情況不一樣，在做量刑判斷的時候，每一個比重多少，法官應該本於他的確信，依照他的良心去斟酌，今天不是一加一等於二的問題，訴訟也沒有那麼單純。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！這不是一加一等於二的問題，我時間到了啦！請你再冷靜地回去想一想我今天問的這個問題，我跟你保證未來的審判實務上每一個法官全部都會遇到這樣的問題，他在斟酌這三個要件、要素的時候，是不是都要符合大法官所講的例示？這影響非常深遠、這影響非常深遠，請秘書長稍微自己想一下，這個問題如果沒有解決的話，未來要負責審判的法官根本就無所適從，好，謝謝。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。秘書長，後面這一段我也聽不下去，「最嚴重」這樣解釋我沒辦法接受，我們也走過司法實務啊！但這個……","不好意思，我們接下來請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:10:00","end_time":"2024-10-07T09:33:42+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155072","委員名稱":"林倩綺","duration":600,"start_time":"2024-10-07T09:23:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493c9a3a777c670470402bf54ec90cbbd08772a8a89b87e0382fa0e21df23cac89f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.85784375,"end":7.624718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.91159375,"end":58.77284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.87409375,"end":62.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.97471875,"end":63.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.56096875,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.13534375,"end":88.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.61096875000001,"end":114.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.26159375,"end":122.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.62784375000001,"end":123.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.96096875,"end":124.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.04534375,"end":125.74971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.76659375000001,"end":126.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.30659375,"end":126.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.34034375,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.40659375,"end":139.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.97971875000002,"end":144.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.07159375,"end":179.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.86346875,"end":189.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.16159375,"end":193.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.80659375000002,"end":195.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.44346875000002,"end":201.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.97409375,"end":204.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.12971875000002,"end":209.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.14159375000003,"end":220.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.12284375000002,"end":224.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.76784375000003,"end":231.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.96096875,"end":233.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.90159375000002,"end":237.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.77846875,"end":241.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.25471875000002,"end":251.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.68784375,"end":262.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.92659375,"end":270.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.63909375000003,"end":268.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.77784375000005,"end":276.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.62909375000004,"end":277.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.18596875000003,"end":277.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.82721875000004,"end":277.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.97909375,"end":278.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.97471875,"end":288.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.00721875,"end":290.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.79159375,"end":289.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.06159375000004,"end":290.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.12909375000004,"end":293.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.25096875,"end":306.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.27971875000003,"end":298.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.07284375,"end":299.54534375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.308,"end":396.949,"text":"相關的設施、相關的人力、路程等等那我想請教一下這個配套準備好了嗎?謝謝委員的一個關心確實我們在這一學期裡面我們也起心動念就是希望說讓學童有一個更健康的一個發展那我們也期待說透過這樣的因為這樣的一個鮮乳品的一些提供確實在許多的這些各縣市"},{"start":397.749,"end":424.87,"text":"他這個區域跟城鄉的一些差距我們其實也希望透過這一學期的一個這樣一個推動裡邊去了解各縣市的一些樣態然後作為我們政策能夠更精進的一些做這樣的一個調整跟地方來合作那委員的一個關心也正是我們所想要更進一步更精進的一個希望在未來在政策的推動"},{"start":426.211,"end":427.012,"text":"提供更好的品質。"},{"start":440.627,"end":459.428,"text":"有這三種,那這個比例真的如同填上來的嗎?還是因為大家要因應教育部的政策,所以填了這麼多的,填了這樣一個差距很大的比例?所以我建議部裡面應該把有沒有乳糖不耐症,而且學童是不是每個人都適合這樣子一個政策,先去做一下調查評估。"},{"start":461.49,"end":489.04,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想這個部分乳糖不耐症這個部分我想我們會更進一步的確實在整個政策裡面的作用怎麼樣讓它更精準實質的比例跟你們政策的那個目標謝謝委員的一個提醒這我們會來我們會再進一步來瞭解好的謝謝那接下來我想問一下這個農業部那請問那個你們的這個班班有鮮乳跟紐西蘭牛乳進口的零關稅的這個相互關係是什麼"},{"start":490.545,"end":505.929,"text":"我想應該是這樣子其實我們希望第一個就是讓我們的學童有足夠的蓋設取量因為目前是遠遠不及民生農業部你很關心這個學童的蓋設取量所以我們只針對推動是國產鮮乳的飲用我們希望是推動國產鮮乳的飲用讓達到營養的價值第二個但是對我們國內弱農產業也是有實質幫助"},{"start":511.51,"end":525.943,"text":"好的,我要這邊做個提醒我們的政策應該因應整個環境所以農業部我們在過去那個這個班班有石斑然後是因為石斑魚的狀況我們知道那時候我們所遭遇到的困難"},{"start":526.684,"end":527.785,"text":"中小學老舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":549.284,"end":550.205,"text":"中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":579.664,"end":599.662,"text":"可以嗎?所以這樣也不會在你們兩部會已經半年多了結果一直到暑假大家來關心這樣一個問題那到開學還產生這麼多的問題可以嗎?好 謝謝那我今天先質詢到此雖然還有很多的議題至少這點我覺得是重要而且是當務之急"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:23:42 - 09:33:42","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155072","gazette":{"lineno":109,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時23分）主席、立院同仁、各部會的夥伴們，大家早安、大家好！非常感謝主席今天安排了這二個題目，包括班班有鮮奶的整備計畫及未來執行狀況，還有關於校舍的補強整建計畫，我想這個都對於我們在整個教育層面上非常的重要。","有關於班班有鮮乳的這件事情，本席因為在7月11號有看到報載，而且是在整個教文版面有一整個系列的報導，7月中其實是我們在準備開學的一個時間，基本上是暑假，所以我就非常密切的關心這一件事，也很感謝今天有這個機會能更深度的了解這裡面所談的整備部分、開學的狀況跟未來要執行的情形。","在開學前我一直聽到的一個狀況就是，對於這樣一個班班有鮮乳的政策，大家目前準備好的就是班班有保久乳，針對保久乳的部分，依照今天相關部會準備的資料，不知道現在是不是可以請教育部長跟農業部次長一起來探討這個問題，好不好？"],["主席：好，請鄭部長，還有杜次長。"],["林委員倩綺：部長，在你們的報告裡面談到，目前你們供應的牛奶大概是20.76%，保久乳是75.77%，然後含鈣的豆乳大概3.4%左右，那您知道這個數據怎麼來的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，就是7月22日調查來的，跟各地方政府調查……"],["林委員倩綺：這是地方政府送上來的嘛？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["林委員倩綺：我想請問一下，部裡面知不知道乳糖不耐症在臺灣大概有多少比例？"],["鄭部長英耀：大概約略3%多一點。"],["林委員倩綺：你們這邊列的乳糖不耐症報上來的有3.4%，可是實際情形是這樣嗎？你們檢視的這個狀況是，這是各地方政府報上來的嘛，那你確定我們所有有關於食品，有關於乳品的需求是這樣子的條件嗎？這是各地方政府報上來，在7月分你們讓各地方政府報上來，那7月是暑假，關於這個需求，你們確定所有的比例是這樣子嗎？對這個比例問題我給部裡面一個建議，乳糖不耐症到底在臺灣學童裡面的比例真正是占多少，不是說地方政府報上來喔，而是……我直接講一個建議，我們在施政的時候，經常都是從主管單位的方便性出發，然後就叫相關的單位來配合，所以我想確定的是，這個數據是準確的嗎？有沒有可能因為，第一，你們要地方政府報上來，那中間其實有談到冷鏈的問題，談到牛奶還有保久乳如何保存的問題，它有沒有可能造成大家在這個過程當中為了一個方便性，因為你們在暑假期間叫大家做這件事情，那在開學的因應跟整備上，大家來不來得及做？所以報上來的數據是真正的數據嗎？有乳糖不耐症的學生在臺灣的數據有多少？依據我查的相關的研究，在亞洲地區大概有60%，所以要不要查一下？","我接下來問一下，請問你們這個政策的目標是什麼？教育部的部分跟農業部的部分我都想聽一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，也謝謝委員的提醒。確實我們根據一些相關的研究，結果發現兒童的成長過程裡面，鈣以及蛋白質的補充關係到兒童是否能夠健康的發展，所以教育部跟農業部我們其實念茲在茲的就是，怎麼樣讓學童……"],["林委員倩綺：怎麼樣讓學童更健康嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是、是、是，然後……"],["林委員倩綺：好的，那我這邊可以請教一下農業部次長，請問您知道鈣成分的補充來源有哪一些嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：其實鈣的來源包括乳、蛋、肉都有，但是鮮乳是最方便的，因為一份鮮乳大概可以補充一天所需要50%的鈣……"],["林委員倩綺：是，應該綠葉蔬菜也有這個可能性啦？"],["杜次長文珍：量比較少。"],["林委員倩綺：所以，你們的農業部的政策目標是不是也是跟教育部一樣嗎？農業部，你們的政策目標是什麼？"],["杜次長文珍：當然是希望我們的學童能夠得到更多的營養。"],["林委員倩綺：希望學童更健康嘛。"],["杜次長文珍：是的。"],["林委員倩綺：我想了解一下，在我們希望學童更健康的政策概念下，農業部所謂的乳牛產業升級計畫跟這件事情的關係是什麼，你們用的經費是哪邊來的？"],["杜次長文珍：第一個，剛剛委員提到的就是，鈣的來源當然有很多種，但是鮮乳是最方便的，一份鮮奶就可以提供我們一天所需要的大概50%的鈣量，這是第一點……"],["林委員倩綺：好，這個部分我想請教一下，你們編列這麼多的預算，應該在今年就執行的，為什麼到7月份的時候還有這麼多學校還不知道相關的配套？在暑假期間我們來得及做好整體比較詳盡的準備嗎？所以在開學的時候，其實還有各校牛奶喝不到，偏遠地區更是，大家為什麼會有這麼高的比例選擇保久乳呢？應該是它比較好放吧。更細節的是，當我們有這樣一個政策以及相關的配套，請問這個配套是不是大家都能夠符合？尤其是偏鄉地區，相關的設施、相關的人力、路程等等，我想請教一下，這個配套準備好了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心。確實我們在這一學期裡面也起心動念、希望讓學童有一個更健康的發展，我們也期待透過這樣而鮮乳品的提供確實在各縣市有許多區域跟城鄉的差距，我們其實也希望透過這一學期這樣的推動去了解各縣市的一些樣態，然後我們的政策能夠更精進的做一些調整跟地方來合作。委員的關心也正是我們所想要更進一步、更精進的，希望未來在政策的推動能夠提供更好的品質，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝部長。我想在教育這個區塊，您這邊也有講到，我們是因為學童的健康，但是我這邊提醒的就是，關於學童的分布比例，對於乳製品你們有這三種，這個比例真的如同填上來的嗎？還是因為大家要因應教育部的政策，所以填了這樣一個差距很大的比例？所以我建議部裡面，應該把有沒有乳糖不耐症而且學童是不是每個人都適合這樣子的一個政策先去做一下調查評估？然後第二個部分……"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，關於乳糖不耐症這個部分，我想我們會更進一步確實的在整個政策裡面讓它更精準……"],["林委員倩綺：就是實質的比例跟你們政策的目標，好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我想謝謝委員的提醒，這個我們會再進一步來了解。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。接下來我想問一下農業部，請問次長，你們這個「班班有鮮乳」跟紐西蘭牛乳進口零關稅的相互關係是什麼？"],["杜次長文珍：我想應該是這樣，其實我們希望第一個就是讓我們的學童有足夠的鈣攝取量，因為目前是遠遠不及；第二個……"],["林委員倩綺：你是農業部耶，你很關心學童的鈣攝取量？"],["杜次長文珍：第二個，所以我們只針對推動國產鮮乳的飲用，我們希望推動國產鮮乳的飲用讓學童攝取的營養價值能夠達標，當然對我們國內的酪農產業也是有實質幫助。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，我這邊要做個提醒，我們的政策應該因應整個環境，所以農業部過去的「班班有石斑」政策是因為石斑魚的狀況，我們知道那時候我們所遭遇到的困難；然後豬肉有狀況，每個營隊又開始在吃豬肉；然後現在有紐西蘭乳品的影響，我們又大家都在喝牛乳。其實牛乳在學校當中，很多學校或每個地方政府其實自己本來就已經在做牛乳的提供，或者是本來就有他們的機制，但是現在我不希望未來農業部在政策沒有制定好的情況下，讓我們的國民都成為政策下的受害者，變成「班班有牛乳」、「班班有石斑」、各營都有肉可以吃，我不希望我們成為一個食物的受害者，好嗎？不要因為是過剩而消化這些東西，所以在制定政策跟編列經費的實務上，是不是可以請農業部也好好做一個省思，可以嗎？所以這樣也不會在你們兩部會之間，已經半年多了，結果一直到暑假大家來關心這樣一個問題，而且到開學還產生這麼多的問題，可以嗎？好，謝謝，我今天先質詢到此，雖然還有很多的議題，至少這一點我覺得是重要，而且是當務之急。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員，有請官員先回座。接下來我們請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葉元之","范雲","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張嘉郡","洪申翰","張雅琳","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","林月琴","吳春城","黃健豪","黃國昌","牛煦庭","徐富癸","羅智強","吳沛憶","高金素梅","李彥秀"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小\n學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國\n土管理署派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00016"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:12:18","end_time":"2024-10-07T09:27:35+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155070","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","duration":738,"start_time":"2024-10-07T09:15:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4938b4645e6c4f88cd6825024566f032902772a8a89b87e0382d506cc573e17a0395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.730343750000001,"end":8.485343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.72096875,"end":13.294718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.598468750000002,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.68284375,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.459093750000001,"end":18.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.20096875,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.173468750000005,"end":35.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.126593750000005,"end":80.10284375},{"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有請彭部長"},{"start":12.816,"end":35.175,"text":"委員早部長早安部長沒想到會期一開始邱部長跟您就一起上新聞了那邱部長說這個環境部應該要編列足夠的資源來幫助醫療院所進行檢探我覺得他的意思好像是說這個檢探的責任要歸在環境部那部長覺得委屈嗎"},{"start":37.036,"end":51.946,"text":"其實不會委屈啦,就是說,委員會給我20秒還原一下齁其實總統是很關心,院長也很關心,我們常常在開會要如何檢探啦那總統是覺得我們跟衛福部辦了一個綠色醫療的活動,那這個很好"},{"start":52.426,"end":52.626,"text":"陳昭姿"},{"start":78.524,"end":106.39,"text":"您念了一下,量一下啦。 不會全責分工的角度來看這個檢探當然是要環境部跟衛福部大家一起合作啦那這個一起推動尤其是政策推動的這個部分那但是我要談的就是說其實這個醫療機構裡面的每一項活動都是非常高度的專業他要對這個醫務的管理或是整個機構的運作是相當熟悉那以這個角度來看其實衛福部是"},{"start":107.27,"end":107.31,"text":"陳昭姿"},{"start":135.046,"end":155.329,"text":"醫療機構檢探的指標來引領整個這個醫療事業這是我們的期待好那接下來就是也是環境部可能要多擔一點責任為了因應全球的氣候變遷等等還有以及全世界都在做這個進行排放的這樣的一個趨勢跟努力那各部會都一定要從方方面面來一起著手"},{"start":156.109,"end":184.615,"text":"請問部長您的團隊目前對於如何串聯各部會進行檢探是不是有一套比較具體清楚的一個協調跟支持機制呢?包委員這個目前由行政院的鄭麗君副院長也跨級召集所有的各部會那我們現在在重新盤點因為包含2030、2032、2035我們都有一個新的目標所以我們很積極在盤點所以也請委員再給我們一點點時間因為其實如果照各部會目前算出來的量是很難檢探的"},{"start":185.755,"end":192.399,"text":"我們現在正在用一個更有野心更有企圖的方式來進行其實簡單的議題其實牽涉太多部門了我們瞭解但除了開會討論之外其實這個具體的行動一定要趕快來跟上我也希望未來的溝通是順利的那麼未來我們才瞭解一下這個進度"},{"start":202.465,"end":230.039,"text":"您也提到日前衛福部及環境部有舉辦了一個非常盛大的綠色醫療就是醫院主管高階主管領航營的活動老實說本席認為過去衛福部在這個領域綠色醫療做得還不夠多其實說等於還沒有做除了今年3月公布了一些醫療院所探排查的結果之外目前針對如何檢探都還沒有提出一些具體的資料"},{"start":230.879,"end":230.939,"text":"好,沒問題"},{"start":249.127,"end":263.389,"text":"那我想請教彭部長針對醫療機構檢探有哪些策略上建議?第一個您有一些想法了嗎?第二個您覺得威福部是不是也要編列預算來配合這樣簡單活動?包委第一個是我們跟經濟部跟經管會"},{"start":265.111,"end":292.606,"text":"我們三個部位有合作然後我們要用深度節能的方式那我們有做好分類有的是負責公立醫院像我們環境部是要負責私立醫院等於是說我們會編列一個我建議醫院不要馬上做盤查啦把節能最重要節能例如說他省了多少電省了就可以少繳一些支出所以我們目前呢應該在未來這一兩個月內會公佈我們會一套的做法深度節能幫助醫療系統深度節能的做法會出來"},{"start":293.306,"end":313.022,"text":"所以你覺得你建議並不是覺得先做探盤查因為醫療機構我們當然是希望能夠做啦但是探盤查對醫療機構的這個負擔也是一筆支出啦所以我們會覺得說先檢探先檢探是最重要的這是很重要的好前一張前一張好那我也希望這個前一張照片再前一張"},{"start":314.415,"end":331.161,"text":"希望這個次長不要哪個醫院他通過淡白的趕快去沾光沾光以後就是官員也少做這種事大家聽到了專家環境部說最重要先節能先節能這個是很不一樣很重要的一個專業的想法回到這個"},{"start":335.356,"end":335.536,"text":"有人知道嗎?"},{"start":366.448,"end":387.163,"text":"天然災害廢棄物應該是沒有因為當時在公告裡面有兩個點我想第一個事業部分由事業自行清除或委託公民營的這個廢棄物清除機構執行機關來代為這是其中一點第二點是釋然性就是可然性的部分優先用焚化的方式來處理"},{"start":388.624,"end":404.313,"text":"那麼就算這個處理執行原則並沒有公告但是目前我們有這個廢棄物清理法的及相關的這個執法應該還是要按照一般的這個做法來做所以我想請教由事業執行清除或委託公民營廢棄物清除機構執行機關來執行清除這樣是正確的嗎報告委員我請問我們的防災處"},{"start":415.936,"end":417.338,"text":"主管機關來負責他的一個監督跟他執行"},{"start":427.947,"end":447.98,"text":"那就不是事業自行清除囉?您談的是這一點喔?他應該是自行清除或委託公民委員會去處理那剛剛我講那個原則是沒有問題嘛就基本上是那我今天想詢問的是部長你是不是知道現在各縣市環保局的公有焚化爐幾乎不收釋然性可燃性的事業廢棄物您知道這件事嗎?那你知道為什麼嗎?他不收欸"},{"start":454.396,"end":473.524,"text":"跟委員報告那個收的原則是要跟一般廢棄物相容的他才會收那有些事業他是比較高的沒關係我跟你講簡單的說因為一般的廢棄物都處理不來了所以事業廢棄物根本就沒得處理部長現在連長照機構產出的這個事業廢棄物現在都沒地方去欸"},{"start":474.204,"end":499.3,"text":"那更不要說工廠出來的這個廢棄物那這一次天災造成的失業廢棄物自然沒處可去啊部長這個問題很嚴重啊就是做不到嘛就是根本沒處可去啊包委員其實如果天災的話是先放在那個地方其實做好土炭處理不是馬上拿去燒啦好那我們來看一下廢棄物清理法基本上按照廢棄物清理法第28條就是說民生廢棄物是優先啦"},{"start":503.823,"end":504.003,"text":"陳昭姿"},{"start":519.125,"end":540.737,"text":"那世界這個環境部根本無從調度為什麼呢因為現在公有的這個焚化爐根本沒有餘裕啊那你的調度權呢這個部分你有解方嗎要有餘裕那這個原則我們是支持的就先處理民生廢棄物但是現在根本沒有餘裕了那你後面的調度權就不用談了現在有解方嗎"},{"start":541.656,"end":571.148,"text":"包委員其實每個縣市它的失業廢棄物因為它是焚化爐都有跟地方政府有簽約有的是BOT的方式所以它還是有在處理失業廢棄物那現在因為剛剛好了剛剛還非常的滿所以這個問題就會出來了那你剛才說到的時候遇到天災的時候有餘裕啊有餘裕現在遇到天災的時候就必須說先分類好然後我們再做同一個調鋪那焚化爐只是處理的一個部分而已包含了掩埋或是整個的回收再利用都是一個處理的方式"},{"start":571.308,"end":571.528,"text":"事實上現在是這樣的"},{"start":601.611,"end":613.586,"text":"有靠山的業者他就能夠分配到這個進場權配額沒有靠山沒有辦法那這樣後來有時候會造成地方政治人物他就是去作梗啊所以環境部是不是要來解決這個問題那你們的SOP是什麼"},{"start":617.216,"end":639.711,"text":"目前其實報告委員其實例如說以臺北市來說的話他只願意接受外面的大概只有3%所以其實這個問題說委員是是很大嗎3%等於沒有對主席再給我一下子快好了快好了那排隊進場量因為沒有確切的這個許可這個許可保證等於任由市場喊喊喊量喊價齁那沒排到隊的人怎麼辦呢請問部長假如今天工有焚化爐齁"},{"start":641.272,"end":641.312,"text":"﹚陳昭姿"},{"start":661.556,"end":688.296,"text":"那如果沒有辦法根本解決公營的這個焚化爐的問題的處理量呢而且平均讓大家能夠平均的進場這個就助長非法的那個爛到啊部長對不對這個問題所以我最後兩頁投影片就是希望我有一個全循環的這個科技園區啦能夠來重新來處理因為現在其實我們環境部喔您說的沒錯這個時程要很快啦要很快對部長對於各地方政府的公營焚化爐公營化爐要如何公平的分配給"},{"start":689.176,"end":699.406,"text":"各業者的進場權環境部現在有沒有一個底因為我還是要強調就是說環境部目前還是沒有真正對事物廢棄物有一個好的規劃"},{"start":701.364,"end":718.165,"text":"因為那個是要事業主管機關那個經濟部要負擔很大的責任那我們也要求他的各種工業區他必須要自己來處理那部長那最後就我們大概什麼時候可以有個答案嗎就是對於整體事業廢棄物的規劃的部分包括公有的量能問題然後分配權的問題"},{"start":719.446,"end":720.548,"text":"我們希望看到整個完整規劃看到進度"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:15:17 - 09:27:35","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155070","gazette":{"lineno":128,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時15分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早安。部長，沒想到會期一開始，邱部長跟您就一起上新聞了。邱部長說環境部應該要提供足夠的資源來幫助醫療院所進行減碳，我覺得他的意思好像是說減碳的責任要歸在環境部，請問部長覺得委屈嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實不會委屈啦！就是說……","委員可不可以給我20秒還原一下？其實總統是很關心，院長也很關心，我們常常在開會討論要如何減碳，總統覺得我們跟衛福部辦了一個綠色醫療的活動，這個很好，但是要幫醫院找到資源。當然，碳費是不可能的，因為衛福部比我們還有錢，他們是我們的幾十倍，當然它要來做，環境部不可能把碳費給它嘛，這個時候我們就要想辦法找別的資源，所以總統有提醒我可以透過保險業的資源來做……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：所以我並沒有被罵，就是「唸一下」啦！我是跟邱部長說，我被總統唸了一下，「唸一下」啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長。從部會權責分工的角度來看，減碳當然是要環境部和衛福部大家一起合作……"],["彭部長啓明：對、對。"],["陳委員昭姿：一起推動。尤其是政策推動的部分，但我要談的就是，其實醫療機構裡面的每一項活動都是非常高度的專業，它要對醫務的管理或是整個機構的運作相當熟悉，以這個角度來看，其實衛福部最有能力，當然也要負起責任來幫助醫院，尤其現在醫院都還處在非常高耗能的階段，怎麼樣來執行減碳的指標？我想這個部分兩個部門都要一起合作。我就是很持平地來講，因為過去我都在醫院服務，所以我也希望政府相關機關一起來趕快、大刀闊斧地列出醫療機構減碳的指標，來引領整個醫療事業。這是我們的期待。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員、謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：接下來環境部可能要多擔一點責任，為了因應全球氣候變遷等等，以及全世界都在朝淨零排放的趨勢做相關的努力，各部會一定都要從方方面面來一起著手，請問部長，您的團隊目前對於如何串聯各部會進行減碳是不是有一套比較具體、清楚的協調機制呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，目前行政院的鄭麗君副院長也召集所有部會，我們現在在重新盤點，因為包含2030、2032、2035，我們都要有一個新的目標，所以我們很積極在盤點，也請委員再給我們一點點時間，因為如果照各部會目前算出來的量是很難減碳的，我們現在正在用一個更有野心、更有企圖的方式來進行。"],["陳委員昭姿：其實我們瞭解減碳的議題牽涉到太多部門，但是除了開會討論之外，具體的行動一定要趕快來跟上。"],["彭部長啓明：有、有。"],["陳委員昭姿：我希望各部會未來的溝通是順利的，也希望能瞭解一下進度。","剛剛你也提到，日前衛福部跟環境部舉辦了一個非常盛大的「綠色醫療」，就是醫院高階主管領航營的活動，老實說，本席認為過去衛福部在綠色醫療這個領域做得還不夠多，甚至可以說等於還沒有做，除了今年3月他們公布了一些醫療院所碳盤查的結果之外，目前針對如何減碳都還沒有提出具體的策略或作為。雖然我知道醫療院所並沒有列入碳費徵收的對象範圍，但是高耗能的醫療服務產業還是需要加入減碳行列，這個部分就要請環境部多多參與協助。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：我想請教彭部長針對醫療機構減碳有哪些策略上的建議，第一個，您有一些想法了嗎？第二個，您覺得衛福部是不是也要編列預算來配合這樣的減碳活動？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個是我們跟經濟部、金管會三個部會有合作，然後我們要用深度節能ESCO的方式，我們有做好分類，有的是負責公立醫院，像我們環境部是要負責私立醫院，等於說我們會編列一個……","我建議醫院不要馬上做盤查，節能最重要，例如說它省了多少電，省了就可以少繳一些支出，我們應該在未來一、兩個月內會公布一套幫助醫療系統深度節能的做法。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以你建議醫院不要急著先做碳盤查？"],["彭部長啓明：我們當然是希望能夠做，但是碳盤查對醫療機構的負擔也是一筆支出，所以我們會覺得先減碳，先減碳是最重要的。"],["陳委員昭姿：這真的是很重要。所以我也希望次長不要哪個醫院通過碳盤查的就趕快去沾光，以後官員少做這種事，大家都聽到了，專家、環境部說，最重要的是先節能。"],["彭部長啓明：對！"],["陳委員昭姿：先節能，這是很不一樣、很重要的專業的想法。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，回到天然災害廢棄物的部分。部長，這一次山陀兒颱風造成高雄許多災情，事實上7月的凱米颱風就已經造成位在高雄仁武的仁大產業園區內，許多廠商的原料跟半成品整個泡在水裡損壞掉了。2002年也就是二十多年前陳水扁總統執政的時候，當時的環保署本來要擬定一個天然災害廢棄物清除處理執行原則，這個處理執行原則後來有公告嗎？有人知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：應該是沒有。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有，好。當時在公告裡面有兩個點，第一個，事業部分由事業自行清除或委託公民營的廢棄物清除機構、執行機關來代為清除，這是其中一點；第二點是適燃性也就是可燃性的部分，優先用焚化的方式來處理。就算這個處理執行原則並沒有公告，但是目前我們有廢棄物清理法及相關子法，應該還是要按照一般的作法來做。所以我想請教，由事業自行清除或委託公民營廢棄物清除機構、執行機關來執行清除，這樣是正確的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我請我們的環管署說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：可以，沒問題。"],["彭部長啓明：請循環署林副署長。"],["陳委員昭姿：那個精神是正確的嗎？"],["林副署長健三：在精神上面的話，事業廢棄物應該還是要依照它的處理方式，還是由事業廢棄物的主管機關來負責其監督跟執行。"],["陳委員昭姿：那就不是事業自行清除了？您談的是這一點嗎？"],["林副署長健三：它應該是自行清除或委託公民營廢棄物處理機構進行清除。"],["陳委員昭姿：委託嘛，那剛剛我講的那個原則是沒有問題的嘛。"],["林副署長健三：是，沒有問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：我今天想詢問的是，部長，您知道現在各縣市環保局的公有焚化爐幾乎不收適燃性、可燃性的事業廢棄物，您知道這件事嗎？那您知道為什麼嗎？各地方的環保局不收耶！"],["彭部長啓明：請署長。"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，收的原則是要跟一般廢棄物相容的它才會收，有些事業它是比較高……"],["陳委員昭姿：沒關係，簡單地說，因為一般的廢棄物都處理不來了啦，所以事業廢棄物根本就沒得處理，部長，現在連長照機構產出的事業廢棄物都沒地方去，更不要說工廠出來的廢棄物，而這次天災造成的事業廢棄物自然沒處可去，部長，這個問題很嚴重，就是做不到嘛，就是根本沒處可去啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實如果天災的話是先放在那個地方做好妥善處理，不是馬上拿去燒。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我們來看一下廢棄物清理法，基本上按照廢棄物清理法第二十八條，民生廢棄物是優先，有餘裕才有事業廢棄物的處理；另外一個重點就是中央主管機關必要時有調度權，它能夠調度使用現有的廢棄物清除處理設施。我現在的問題是，環境部根本無從調度，為什麼呢？因為現在公有的焚化爐根本沒有餘裕，那你的調度權呢？這個部分你有解方嗎？要有餘裕，這個原則我們是支持，就是先處理民生廢棄物，但是現在根本沒有餘裕了，你後面的調度權就不用談了，現在有解方嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實每個縣市的事業廢棄物，因為焚化爐都跟地方政府有簽約，有的是以BOT的方式，所以它還是有在處理事業廢棄物。現在因為剛剛好非常滿，所以這個問題就會出來，你剛才是說遇到天災的時候……"],["陳委員昭姿：法規定要有餘裕。"],["彭部長啓明：現在遇到天災的時候，就必須先分類好，然後我們再做統一調度，焚化爐只是處理的一部分而已，包含掩埋或是整個回收再利用都是處理的方式。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，坦白說，從環境部到地方縣市政府對事業廢棄物的進廠管制是一團糟，為什麼這樣說呢？地方政府的環保局還決定事業廢棄物的進廠權，但事實上事業廢棄物很容易發生相爭配額，因此我想請教部長，如果地方政府的焚化爐有餘裕，假設有餘裕能夠接收事業廢棄物，是不是應該讓每一家業者有機會公平地進入、有進廠的數量？這是第一個。事實上，現在是這樣，有靠山的業者就能夠分配到進廠權配額，沒有靠山沒有辦法，這樣的話有時候會造成地方政治人物從中作梗，環境部是不是要來解決這個問題，你們的SOP是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，例如以臺北市來說的話，它願意接受外面的大概只有3%，所以其實這個問題……"],["陳委員昭姿：問題很大嘛，3%等於沒有。主席，再給我一點時間，快好了。排隊進廠量因為沒有確切的許可保證，等於任由市場喊量喊價，那沒排到隊的人怎麼辦呢？請問部長，假如今天公有焚化爐、焚化廠拒絕了，你會建議這些可燃性的事業廢棄物去哪裡呢？因為民營焚化業者的價格有時候很高，事業單位或清運單位只能乖乖配合。可是我覺得在這個情況下，人性沒辦法考驗，就是會有一些業者開始亂倒、亂埋。如果沒有辦法根本解決公營焚化爐的問題、處理量能，而且讓大家能夠平均地進廠，這就助長非法的亂倒，部長，對不對？這個問題……"],["彭部長啓明：對，所以我最後兩頁的投影片就是希望有一個全循環的科技園區，能夠重新來處理，因為現在我們環境部其實……您說得沒錯……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個時程要很快。"],["彭部長啓明：要很快，對。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，對於各地方政府的公營焚化爐要如何公平地分配各業者的進廠權，環境部現在有沒有一個底？我還是要強調，環境部目前還是沒有真正對事業廢棄物有一個好的規劃。"],["彭部長啓明：因為那個是要事業主管機關，經濟部要負擔很大的責任，我們也要求它的各種工業區必須要自己來處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，大概什麼時候可以有個答案？就是對於整體事業廢棄物的規劃部分，包括公有的量能問題，然後分配權的問題。"],["林副署長健三：是，這個在我們行政院裡面有一個方案，我們持續不斷在盤點到底有多少接受量，這個方案裡面也都有跟各個目的事業主管機關合作，我們已經有算出這個量的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們是希望看到整個完整規劃，還要看到進度。"],["林副署長健三：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07"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第一個問題有人說舊酪農去化還有去化牛奶所以我們推班班有鮮乳可是我們跟農業部討論相關的數字我想要問次長我所知道對不對其實以目前我們一周供應兩次國產乳品不管它是鮮乳或是做成薄酒乳其實也只佔國產牛乳產量的4%甚至不到5%所以對於外界所謂去化所謂要學校消化這件事情其實論述是有問題的對嗎"},{"start":181.361,"end":204.654,"text":"是的,國產鮮乳絕對足夠提供給我們學童使用所以不會有去化的問題可是我甚至聽到有的縣市政府他們過往確實有提供學童鮮乳在沒有這個政策之前可是因為有這個政策是不是有一些縣市開始蠢蠢欲動想要取消原有的鮮乳那會不會擠壓了我們這個原本政策的福利的想像"},{"start":205.325,"end":234.198,"text":"我想就借用剛才委員的資料啦因為就我們全國的這個蓋的收取量其實遠遠遠遠低於標準量即便現在一周供應兩次其實還是遠遠低於所需要的學童營養量所以真的是誠心第一個是感謝各縣市其實在以往沒有這個政策之前其實也有提供那請千萬不要因為有這個政策而把原來的取消掉因為國產鮮乳需要大家支持第二個國產鮮乳是可以提供學童必要的營養"},{"start":234.878,"end":256.319,"text":"好 謝謝次長跟我們一起面對這個問題如同你說的你已經誠心的拜託各縣市政府不要取消那是不是有機會我們在後續可以持續跟各縣市政府溝通不要取消原來的先辱那這個部分農業部可不可以再給委員會教育文化委員會所有委員一個進度報告如何去跟縣市政府溝通不要取消原有的先辱再加碼繼續進訓下去好 我們很樂意"},{"start":258.621,"end":273.289,"text":"好 那我們辦公室也會積極追蹤這個議題我相信這件事情非常非常的重要因為可能不是被寫在媒體上但是確實是已經發生在現場的問題那我這裡也要呼籲各縣市政府請積極地在支持國產先入的角度上不要取消原有的先入再來"},{"start":273.909,"end":293.917,"text":"有開始有人問,其實剛剛也有委員問到關於保酒乳跟鮮乳的問題就我們問了很多營養師其實保酒乳跟鮮乳的營養產值是沒有問題的可是,可是我剛剛已經說了站在不同的角度,站在落農的角度當然會希望學童們可以喝鮮乳站在家長的角度或是站在喜歡喝冰冰涼涼鮮乳的小孩的角度他們也想要喝鮮乳"},{"start":296.138,"end":315.334,"text":"可是我們不得不產生保酒乳這個事情我相信絕對是因為有選擇的問題、配送的問題、保存的問題可是保酒乳它確實也已經存在市面上很久了那關於鮮乳跟保酒乳的選用這個議題我是不是可以留些時間給部長或是次長回應一下消除國人的疑慮好不好"},{"start":319.135,"end":345.84,"text":"因為其實是我們可以提供現在在公共工程網站上面的採購契約一共有兩種鮮乳也可以、保久乳也可以所以要如何選購或是如何選擇其實在各縣市或在各學校有不同的考量那對我們來講我們就提供各種可能的選擇不管要採購鮮乳也好、國產的保久乳也好我們都有提供這樣子的選項給各縣市跟給各學校那就依照他們的需求來採購"},{"start":346.98,"end":376.483,"text":"那遵照需求的部分剛剛也有委員也就是林千祺委員一直在提到說是學校在7月的時候收到資料統計但是我也有聽到開始有縣市政府說7月的時候是這樣把資料交出來可是可能他們到了10月、到了11月的時候可能孩子們的選擇或是家長們的建議可能又會把原本的訂購從包舊乳改成鮮乳甚至是把鮮乳改成包舊乳甚至還有涵蓋豆漿的部分那關於縣市政府在跟農業部跟教育部的溝通你們覺得目前遇到最大的困境到底是什麼"},{"start":376.883,"end":390.497,"text":"因為我們甚至也有聽到某些縣市政府他們是甚至直接要求學校你們自己去下單我們不幫你們處理那這樣子難道不會造成學校的困擾嗎那教育部跟農業部在跟縣市政府溝通目前遇到比較大的困境比較會是什麼"},{"start":395.032,"end":424.385,"text":"跟委員報告這主要是涉及到這一個共同供應企業上的一些那當然這也是我剛才有其他委員裡面特別提到說我們也希望有一些更精進的滾動式的一些修正因為確實各縣市在這一個上這個共同供應企業的平台裡面去下單然後到這個招標然後完成所有的手續我想這個部分我們也一直在這個請求這個地方政府啊"},{"start":424.765,"end":424.825,"text":"主席"},{"start":456.266,"end":470.878,"text":"根文報告確實那是我們努力的一個目標我們希望這個政策所有的聯環美誼到最後真正能夠加匯能夠讓我們所有的受教的這些學童能夠有一個更好的一個健康的一個發展"},{"start":471.178,"end":492.082,"text":"那最後我想要問一下有沒有可能擴及到幼兒園或國中但是因為目前還有很多問題需要調整跟討論所以是不是這個問題我們之後再跟部裡面或是跟農業部討論有沒有可能擴及到更多對象在照顧到營養跟支持國產鮮乳的論述前提底下我們去達到這個目標好不好謝謝委員好 謝謝部長 謝謝次長 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳培鈺委員請部長先回座"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:48:29 - 09:56:47","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155091","gazette":{"lineno":213,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時48分）謝謝主席，有請部長跟農業部次長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長及杜次長。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長、次長辛苦了。今天很多人都要談論班班有鮮奶，但是我覺得我想要回到最根本的源頭，我們當時之所以要做這件事情其實有一個很重要的原因，就教育部的角色是希望提供學童營養的部分，對不對？部長，這個部分我的論述對嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長。就農業部的角色，支持國產鮮乳……我想不管是任何農產品，絕對是農業部最重要的工作對嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果在這兩個命題底下，必須要促成跨部會的合作，甚至在你們的業務報告裡面有提到食安辦公室，甚至是拉到行政院的高度來看，也就是說，我相信從整個行政院到教育部或者是農業部都非常支持相關的政策，而且在相關的預算上應該也給予支持。根據剛剛兩位所說的一些數字我們可以看到，如果就營養支持的角度，確實不是只有學童，我要提醒一下，是不是其實全民都有鈣攝取不足的問題？而且不管男性或女性，甚至男性的比例更高，高達40%到60%，這個部分我想教育部跟農業部也都非常清楚。所以在這個背景底下，應該還有參考全世界其他國家的相關政策，包含英國、美國、歐洲、日本、加拿大，早就有行之多年的學童乳日這件事情，這個部分我的理解是對的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果其他國家都有做過類似的事情，再加上我們剛剛說相關政策的背景，我想要請問兩位，針對學童乳這件事情，全臺灣應該也不是我們單獨提出這個論述，但是在這個論述的政策推動下，會有非常多人有角色，我想要請問一下兩位，哪些人有角色呢？第一個，酪農一定有角色對嗎？再來，學校的老師有角色，家長有角色，孩子們有角色，還有乳品廠商有角色對嗎？在這麼多角色共同要支持這個政策、協助這個政策推動下，我相信有非常多的討論會議在進行，所以我在你們的業務報告裡面看到你們提到非常、非常多，你們開了很多會，也討論了很多事情，如同很多媒體所披露的或者是剛剛所有委員所問的，我想我們是不是就務實的來面對一些問題，好不好？","第一個問題，有人說為了救酪農及去化牛奶所以我們推班班有鮮乳，可是我們跟農業部討論相關的數字，我想要問次長我所知道的對不對？以目前我們一週供應兩次國產乳品，不管它是鮮乳或是做成保久乳，其實也只占國產牛乳產量的4%，甚至不到5%，所以對於外界所謂的去化、所謂要學校消化這件事情，其實論述是有問題的對嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：是的，國產鮮乳絕對足夠提供給我們學童使用，並沒有去化的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以不會有去化的問題，可是我甚至聽到有的縣市政府他們過往確實有提供學童鮮乳，在沒有這個政策之前。可是因為有了這個政策，是不是有一些縣市開始蠢蠢欲動、想要取消原有的鮮乳，那會不會擠壓了我們這個原本政策的福利的想像？"],["杜次長文珍：我想就借用剛才委員的資料，因為就我們全國鈣的攝取量其實遠遠低於標準量，即便現在一週供應兩次，其實還是遠遠低於所需要的學童營養量，所以真的是誠心……第一個是感謝各縣市在以往沒有這個政策之前，其實也有提供，請千萬不要因為有這個政策而把原來的取消掉，因為國產鮮乳需要大家支持；第二個，國產鮮乳是可以提供學童必要的營養。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝次長跟我們一起面對這個問題，如同你說的，你已經誠心的拜託各縣市政府不要取消，那是不是有機會後續可以持續跟各縣市政府溝通，不要取消原來的鮮乳，這個部分農業部可不可以再給教育及文化委員會所有委員一個進度報告，看看如何去跟縣市政府溝通，不要取消原有的鮮乳，再加碼繼續進行下去？"],["杜次長文珍：好，我們很樂意。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們辦公室也會積極追蹤這個議題，我相信這件事情非常、非常的重要，可能不是被寫在媒體上，但確實是已經發生在現場的問題，我這裡也要呼籲各縣市政府，請積極站在支持國產鮮乳的角度上，不要取消原有的鮮乳。","再來，其實剛剛也有委員問到關於保久乳跟鮮乳的問題，就我們問了很多營養師，其實保久乳跟鮮乳的營養價值是沒有問題的，可是我剛剛已經說了，站在不同的角度，站在酪農的角度，當然會希望學童們可以喝鮮乳；站在家長的角度，或是站在喜歡喝冰冰涼涼鮮乳的小孩的角度，他們也想要喝鮮乳，可是我們不得不產生保久乳這個事情，我相信絕對是因為有選擇的問題、配送的問題、保存的問題，可是保久乳它確實也已經存在市面上很久了。關於鮮乳跟保久乳的選用這個議題，我是不是可以留些時間給部長或是次長回應一下，消除國人的疑慮，好不好？"],["杜次長文珍：好，其實我們可以提供現在在公共工程網站上面的採購契約一共有兩種，鮮乳也可以，保久乳也可以，所以要如何選購或是如何選擇，其實在各縣市或在各學校有不同的考量。對我們來講，我們就是提供各種可能的選擇，不管要採購鮮乳也好、國產的保久乳也好，我們都有提供這樣子的選項給各縣市跟各學校，就依照他們的需求來採購。"],["陳委員培瑜：關於遵照需求的部分，剛剛林倩綺委員一直提到說是學校在7月的時候收到資料統計，但是我也有聽到開始有縣市政府說7月的時候是這樣把資料交出來，可是他們到了10月、11月的時候，可能因為孩子們的選擇或是家長們的建議又會把原本的訂購從保久乳改成鮮乳，甚至是把鮮乳改成保久乳，甚至還有涵蓋豆漿的部分。關於縣市政府在跟農業部及教育部的溝通，你們覺得目前遇到最大的困境到底是什麼？我們也有聽到，某些縣市政府甚至直接要求學校自己下單、不幫他們處理，這樣子難道還會造成學校的困擾嗎？那教育部跟農業部在跟縣市政府的溝通上，目前遇到比較大的困境是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，主要是涉及共同供應契約上的一些問題，當然，我剛才已經跟其他委員特別提到，我們也希望有一些更精進的滾動式修正，因為各縣市在共同供應契約的平台裡邊去下單，然後進行招標，到完成所有的手續，這個部分我們也一直在督促地方政府能夠加速，然後也能夠呼應一些實際的需求。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以剛剛有委員質疑部長說的滾動調整這件事情聽起來不合理，但是我聽起來連縣市政府自己都有滾動調整的問題，所以我想在促進這個政策更美好的情況下，不管是部裡面的滾動調整或是縣市政府的滾動調整，是不是都應該在可接受的範圍，而且你們要積極跟縣市政府溝通，絕對不要造成學校的壓力，也不要造成孩子們或是家長們的困擾？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，跟委員報告，那確實是我們努力的一個目標，我們也希望這個政策、所有的良法美意，到最後真正能夠嘉惠、能夠讓所有的受教學童有一個更好的、健康的發展。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後我想要問一下，有人在提這項政策有沒有可能擴及幼兒園或國中，但是因為目前還有很多問題需要調整和討論，所以是不是之後再跟部裡面或是再跟農業部討論有沒有可能擴及更多對象？在照顧到營養跟支持國產鮮乳的論述前提底下，我們去達成這個目標，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長、謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳培瑜委員。請部長先回座。","本席在這邊補充說明一下，今天排這個專案報告是因為剛剛開學，跟我們學生的權益很有關係，不管是老舊校舍或是班班有鮮奶。陳部長因為颱風去中南部勘災，現在農損相關問題滿嚴重的，他有跟本席請假，所以今天由次長代理。在此跟各位委員補充說明，以上。"],["主席（陳委員培瑜代）：接下來有請萬美玲召委，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葉元之","范雲","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張嘉郡","洪申翰","張雅琳","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","林月琴","吳春城","黃健豪","黃國昌","牛煦庭","徐富癸","羅智強","吳沛憶","高金素梅","李彥秀"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小\n學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國\n土管理署派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00016"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:10:32","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:28:06+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155126","委員名稱":"林沛祥","duration":632,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:17:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b49387ae615001e41e93bb8e3b5ddc0e7677772a8a89b87e0382f65c60cea7c107965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.6759687500000005,"end":4.418468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.620968749999999,"end":6.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.50659375,"end":7.945343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.36221875,"end":13.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.41284375,"end":14.391593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.015968750000003,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.14221875,"end":26.153468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.254718750000002,"end":26.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.59221875,"end":27.80721875},{"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attack．那請問一下我們的速發部．針對資安這件事情來講．請問你們當這個攻擊來的時候．你們做了些什麼"},{"start":198.658,"end":220.568,"text":"我們當然是說我們有治安署大概就有一些治安通報嘛好不好治安就是我們治安的防護就剛剛講有特別講說我們有所謂通報系統情治通報系統就SERT這樣一個機制我們有事前、事中、事後事前就是集合我們確定治安大家都有達到一個水準那事中就是在攻擊的時候我們所謂的各式各樣通報像SOC或是像是SERT"},{"start":220.908,"end":238.416,"text":"他們會通報那我會跟所有的單位通報說我們看到新的攻擊請大家開始準備那事後我們就分析這攻擊的太陽再去看怎麼樣去加強防護好那未來如果針對俄國再一次的攻擊你們會做些什麼事目前我們看到俄國這攻擊說DDoS攻擊裡面其實並沒有造成造成嚴重的"},{"start":239.316,"end":268.528,"text":"這才是本席覺得對不起我不是說要看人希望人家受傷我不是要我們任何我們國家的企業有任何的損傷或者我們的所有的那個我們不管公司也要還是公部門也要的功能被癱瘓但是如果以我對泰克的瞭解他們這樣子很有第一個就是他們有更實際是不是有更深一層的含義在裡面是不是已經放了其他的其他的不同的病毒在裡面之類的第二個就是他們有表示他們要立威請問為什麼台灣要拿來被他們立威呢"},{"start":268.968,"end":271.269,"text":"請具體一點因為我們這個具體一點未來如果還有一樣的攻擊10月10號快到了未來如果還有一樣的攻擊的時候請問"},{"start":296.619,"end":325.243,"text":"速發部該怎麼樣幫助我們這些可能會被攻擊的單位我們已經提升治安的警戒所以目前就是已經全動員就是在目前那個就是我們已經提升這個警戒就是我們會加強這個monitor就是監控然後防護所以但是我跟委員講就是說我們要民間機構來配合有些CI來配合我們有一個法正在立法院送立法院就是治安"},{"start":325.903,"end":342.106,"text":"謝謝部長不好意思我時間有限那我們現在回到打詐上面因為這時事題很重要這個都是不管是打詐也好都是有關治安的一部分嘛那我想請問一下說我剛剛看到這份打詐的專題報告講說我們把20億還給了受害人那請問部長知道我們今年"},{"start":343.367,"end":365.48,"text":"總共被騙的金額是多少億嗎?那個報告委員今年的那個數目是蠻多請問今年多少億?今年你不能只跟我們講說老實講你們這三份報告給國人看的時候他們會覺得說噢真的有那麼你真的為什麼我們還是覺得身邊的詐騙越來越多為什麼我是覺得說我們打詐打詐國家都打不到為什麼越打越詐"},{"start":366.71,"end":388.366,"text":"這才是為什麼我要問因為你這邊很明顯說跟我講說以返還受害人的所所所所所所損害金額高達20億但是總共配了多少呢我在資料查到在資料上面查到光7月份我們受害就110億然後剛剛9月5號那一天9月4號還是9月5號9月4號那一天我們就差不多4億1000多萬"},{"start":393.049,"end":411.943,"text":"一天就4億1000多萬那你們現在很高興跟我們講我們還了20億給什麼受害人老實講這樣會讓我們民眾覺得幸福嗎數字會說話數字不會騙人那我現在只想知道說到目前今天10月7號為止我們台灣到底有我們台灣到底已知的受詐騙的金額是多少"},{"start":413.055,"end":429.413,"text":"到今天為止,10月4號好了對,這個最後統計在警政署那邊,不過我跟我委員大概多少,總共有個Ball Talk Number應該不止一百,因為7月份就110億光7月份一整個月就110億,那整年大概多少"},{"start":431.687,"end":454.599,"text":"我必須要講就是說我們現在很多黑數出現是因為我們鼓勵就是說我們的確有加強宣導以後很多因為被詐騙的人不是今天才被詐騙他可能是半年前一年前被詐騙不好意思我順便加一句為什麼我想知道因為我們一直說打詐國家打詐國家隊打詐國家隊從打詐國家隊出來的時候對民眾的印象來講至少我所感覺到印象來講越打越詐"},{"start":455.279,"end":475.462,"text":"越打詐騙越猖狂甚至說我們越來越多年輕人跑去當詐騙集團他們不想當然我們知道這有社會因素有整個經濟的因素存在但是我們似乎我們如果在制度面我們不把握機會把他這個風氣把他擋下來的話那我們其實是沒我們這樣做說再怎麼樣花這麼多經費再怎麼樣做大內宣都不會有用的"},{"start":475.822,"end":499.971,"text":"甚至這樣講 資訊在未來是最重要的我想數位發展部部長應該最知道資訊現在好不好比現今還重要而如果以資訊來講我們的平台的管制其實是必須要再加強的因為平台的管制來講我剛剛看了你們整個數位發展部的打詐成效跟防制我看完之後覺得我們是不是把我們的整個系統的設置跟我們法規的設置比較像美國"},{"start":500.911,"end":515.504,"text":"也就是說我們什麼都選美國的時候就讓他的使用者不停的去做他們的事情我們覺得平台都是無辜的平台我們不能平台不負責使用者的行為是不是我們現在在這個歐盟針對使用者"},{"start":516.445,"end":541.67,"text":"如果他們已經察覺到有所謂的違法甚至有害的行為他們是會予以是予以罰款的我們有這個機制嗎?打詐專法會予以根本有這樣的罰款的機制沒錯而且那我想請問一下如果他們是不是現在還是要確定是打詐的廣告他們才會檢舉如果不是如果是只是說OK我今天如果用李昆哲、李賢昭偉的照片上面隨便貼了一個"},{"start":543.251,"end":556.248,"text":"那我送出去之後,如果沒有人說這是詐騙,是不是就會過關?我們會有幾個系統,一個就是我們會,我們自己的系統會去掃描,會看到這樣的話,我們會把他要求向臉書要求他下架,我們有這樣的機制,我們從9月,從8月20..."},{"start":560.473,"end":570.719,"text":"我記得以前跟我以前有講過24小時之內要下架24小時之內會演出會配合下架那其他的頻道呢?當然也是一樣所有的頻道所有Meta都是一樣嗎?"},{"start":570.719,"end":584.888,"text":"IG都是一樣嗎?對TikTok都一樣我們現在就是要求24小時下架TikTok你們可以嗎?Alphabet你們可以管得到嗎?TikTok一樣就是它是我們四大就是我們有六個平台是我們納管這六個平台都要配合不然它就會被罰款"},{"start":585.988,"end":600.878,"text":"為什麼我會把這件事特技拿出來講這麼激動因為治安也好打詐也好跟我們息息相關越來越接近了而老實講數位發展部既然是個部我們對它就有更高的期待更更高的要求而且這是符合國人期待不然就當作就不要數位發展部"},{"start":601.878,"end":602.958,"text":"我們納管的數位經濟產業我們會好好的監督"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:17:34 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10:28:06","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155126","gazette":{"lineno":405,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（10時17分）主席，有請數發部部長。"],["主席：黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，我現在問的是時事題，請問一下在過去10天之內，證交所、桃園機場、聯電、緯創、台塑都被駭客所攻擊，這件事您知道嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：知道。"],["林委員沛祥：請問一下這些攻擊是從哪裡來的？"],["黃部長彥男：DDoS……當然一開始在對政府的攻擊開始……"],["林委員沛祥：沒有，我知道DDoS，網路上都查得到……"],["黃部長彥男：一開始是……"],["林委員沛祥：我想知道這些攻擊是從哪裡來的？"],["黃部長彥男：都是從國外，利用……"],["林委員沛祥：國外哪裡？主要從哪裡？"],["黃部長彥男：其實因為僵屍網路散布在全世界，所以他是從全世界各……就是有啟動的，我們一開始認為是俄國的一個駭客團體。"],["林委員沛祥：請問為什麼會是俄國的駭客團體？因為這件事情我覺得非常嚴重，理論上來講，雖然說道高一尺魔高一丈，這句話我想數發部還有所有打詐國家隊最有感觸，而說真的，我聽到國家隊三個字就有點「倒彈」，因為每次有國家隊，表示這邊做得很糟糕，所以才需要國家隊，但是相對來講，現在我們是不是要有防駭國家隊？因為最尷尬的地方是俄國、北韓，這都是全世界駭客最強的國家，以前他們也不會針對我們，請問為什麼現在會開始針對我們呢？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員……"],["林委員沛祥：對不起，讓我先講完。一個攻擊出來，對駭客來講，每一次的攻擊都必須要有所回應，都要有所回報，不然的話對他們來講CP值不夠高。駭客的習性，他們是有事沒事不會主動去挑釁的，因為每一次他們的攻擊，他們的僵屍網路就被破壞，每一次他們的攻擊，他們的IP就會暴露，每一次他們的攻擊一定要有效、有目的，這是很快的……而我自己以前也在IT上面知道過一些事情，我有在IT的經驗，我也知道說我們的防護，如果他們真的要攻擊的話，我們很難防得住，以一個企業體來講，先不要講數發部。那我想請問一下，到目前來講，請問為什麼俄國的駭客要做這種無謂的攻擊，我們可以防下來的攻擊？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，那個我們有調查過，其實這次俄國的駭客攻擊，不是只有針臺灣，我們看到對美國、對荷蘭等一些國家都有攻擊，所以攻擊應該是……"],["林委員沛祥：我們知道他們攻擊美國有政治因素，對荷蘭可能也有北約的政治因素，那對臺灣呢？有沒有政治因素？還是駭客單純覺得很好玩，所以俄國的駭客就跑來攻擊臺灣，是嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，臺灣就是一個攻擊的熱點，過去幾年來因為臺灣就是……委員也知道，我們被攻擊的數目可能是全球最高的，所以幾乎所有的駭客，有新的武器大概都拿臺灣當試煉場，這是我們很不希望見到的。"],["林委員沛祥：因為之前沒有數發部，如果沒有一個「部」來做數位發展的話，我們立法院對資安的要求不會這麼地嚴格，但是現在，包括桃園機場、證交所、聯電、緯創、台塑都under attack，請問我們的數發部針對「資安」這件事情，當攻擊來的時候你們做了些什麼？"],["黃部長彥男：我們有資安署，當然就有一些資安通報，包含我們有資安的防護。剛才有特別講到，我們有數位通報系統、情資通報系統，就是CERT這樣的一個機制，分有事前、事中、事後。事前就是稽核，我們要確定大家的資安都有達到一個水準；事中就是在攻擊的時候，我們有各式各樣的通報，像SOC或是像CERT，他們會通報，我們會跟所有的單位通報說我們看到新的攻擊，請大家開始準備；事後我們會去分析這些攻擊的態樣，再去看怎麼樣去加強防護。"],["林委員沛祥：未來針對俄國再一次攻擊，你們會做些什麼反擊嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：目前我們看到俄國攻擊的時候，在第六次的攻擊裡面，其實並沒有造成嚴重的破壞。"],["林委員沛祥：這才是本席覺得……對不起，我不是希望看到有人受傷，我不希望我們國家有任何的企業有任何的損傷，或者我們所有的公司或公部門的功能被癱瘓，但是如果以我對駭客的瞭解，他們這樣子做，第一個，他們是不是有更實際、更深一層的含義在裡面？是不是已經放了其他不同的病毒在裡面之類的？第二個就是表示他們要立威，請問臺灣為什麼會被他們拿來立威呢？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我剛剛講過了，臺灣本來就是攻擊的熱點，所以我覺得被攻擊並不是一個特別的事件，或這次有什麼特別不一樣，我們是一直都有被攻擊。當然，這次攻擊的量，目前看起來，就我們所看到的情報裡面，其實我們並沒有嚴重地受損。"],["林委員沛祥：請具體一點，因為未來如果還有一樣的攻擊，畢竟10月10號快到了，未來如果還有一樣的攻擊時，請問數發部該怎麼幫助我們這些可能會被攻擊的單位？"],["黃部長彥男：我們已經提升資安警戒的level，目前就是全動員，我們會加強monitor（監控）和防護，但我也要跟委員講，我們要民間機構配合、CI來配合，我們有一個法正送立法院，就是資安……"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝部長，不好意思，我時間有限。我們現在回到打詐上面，因為時事題很重要，不管是打詐也好，都是資安的一部分。我想請問一下，我剛剛看到這份打詐的專題報告講說，我們把20億還給受害人，請問部長知不知道我們今年總共被騙的金額是多少億？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，今年的數目是滿多的，不過我跟委員講……"],["林委員沛祥：對，請問今年是多少億？"],["黃部長彥男：今年……"],["林委員沛祥：你不能只跟我講……老實講，你們這3份報告給國人看的時候他們會覺得，噢！真的有那麼……為什麼我們還是覺得身邊的詐騙愈來愈多？為什麼我們的打詐國家隊打不到詐？為什麼愈打愈詐？這才是我為什麼要問的原因。你這裡很明顯地跟我講說，「已返還受害人所受損害金額高達20億」，但是總共被騙了多少呢？我在資料上查到，光7月我們受害的部分就有110億，光9月4號那天，就差不多有四億一千多萬。一天就四億一千多萬！你們現在很高興地跟我們講，還了20億給所謂的受害人，老實講，這會讓我們民眾覺得幸福嗎？","數字會說話，數字不會騙人，我現在只想知道，到今天10月7號為止，我們臺灣已知受詐騙的金額到底是多少？到今天為止……不然到10月4號好了。"],["黃部長彥男：這個最後的統計在警政署那邊，不過我跟委員講……"],["林委員沛祥：大概多少？總是有個ball-park number吧！"],["黃部長彥男：就是剛剛講的百億……"],["林委員沛祥：應該不只吧！因為光是7月一整個月就有110億，那整年大概多少？"],["黃部長彥男：我知道。報告委員，我必須要講，現在有很多黑數出現，是因為我們鼓勵……我們加強宣導以後，的確有很多……因為被詐騙的人不是今天才被詐騙，他可能在半年前、一年前就被詐騙了……"],["林委員沛祥：不好意思，我順便加一句，為什麼我想知道？因為我們一直在說「打詐國家隊」，從「打詐國家隊」出來之後，給民眾的印象來講，至少是我所感覺到的印象來講是愈打愈詐，愈打詐騙愈猖狂，甚至我們有愈來愈多的年輕人跑去當詐騙集團。他們不想，當然我們知道其中有社會因素，有整個經濟的因素存在，但是如果我們在制度面不把握機會，把這個風氣擋下來的話，我們不管再怎樣做、花再多經費、再怎麼做大內宣都不會有用的。","甚至這樣講，資訊在未來是最重要的，我想數發部部長應該最知道，資訊現在搞不好比現金還重要，如果以資訊來講，我們的平台管制其實是必須再加強的。因為以平台的管制來講，我剛剛看了你們數發部的整個「我國打詐成效與防制」的報告，看完之後我覺得，我們整個系統的設置跟法規的設置是不是比較像美國？也就是說，當我們什麼都學美國的時候，就讓它的使用者不停地去做他們的事情，我們平台都是無辜的，平台不負責使用者的行為，是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：我們現在在……"],["林委員沛祥：歐盟針對使用者，如果他們已經查到所謂的「違法」，甚至是「有害」的行為，他們是會予以罰款的，我們有這個機制嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：會啊！打詐專法會有這個罰款的機制。"],["林委員沛祥：那我想請問一下，他們現在是不是還要確定是詐騙的廣告才會檢舉？如果不是這種，而只是說，OK，我今天如果用李昆澤前召委的照片，隨便貼上一個粉絲專頁，我送出去之後，如果沒有人說這是詐騙，是不是就會過關？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會有幾個系統，一個是我們自己的系統會去掃描，看到這樣子的話，我們會像臉書一樣要求他下架，我們有這樣的一個機制。我們從8月……"],["林委員沛祥：多快？我記得以前有講過，要在24小時之內下架。"],["黃部長彥男：24小時之內臉書會配合下架。"],["林委員沛祥：那其他的頻道呢？"],["黃部長彥男：也是一樣，所有的頻道都是……"],["林委員沛祥：所有的連Meta也一樣嗎？IG、Threads也都一樣嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，連TikTok都一樣，我們現在就是要求24小時。"],["林委員沛祥：TikTok你們可以嗎？Alphabet你們可以管得到嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：TikTok一樣，它就是我們四大……有6個平台被我們納管，這6個平台都要配合，不然它就會被罰款。"],["林委員沛祥：為什麼我會把這件事特地拿出來講，還這麼激動？因為資安也好、打詐也好都跟我們息息相關，也愈來愈接近了，所以老實講，數位發展部既然是個「部」，我們對它就有更高的期待跟更高的要求，而且這是符合國人期待，不然當初就不要成立數位發展部。如果今天是個「署」，我們就用署的規格來檢視，如果今天是個「部」，而我們不用部的規格來檢視，就有愧於國人的期待，所以這一點請部長好好想一想、好好札實地把打詐這件事去落實，至少不要說，這方面都是別的單位出的事情，跟我們數發部沒有關係。"],["黃部長彥男：我們納管的數位經濟產業，我們會好好地監督。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員，接下來詢答到何欣純委員之後休息10分鐘。","有請李昆澤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","游顥","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","陳雪生","徐富癸","洪孟楷","李坤城","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","郭國文","林月琴","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、\n內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:08:26","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:48:37+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155125","委員名稱":"李柏毅","duration":506,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:40:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4933f21bf7cb3253baccc55309ce9652759772a8a89b87e0382da5296c810926da95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.91159375,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.442843750000002,"end":12.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.029093750000001,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.19721875,"end":16.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.715968750000002,"end":18.289718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.04909375,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.02721875,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.16221875,"end":24.567218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.32471875,"end":39.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.99096875,"end":41.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.17221875,"end":41.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.34096875,"end":42.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.72471875,"end":44.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.93534375,"end":45.509093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.032218750000006,"end":54.672218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.06034375,"end":59.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.98784375,"end":62.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.69221875,"end":74.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.94346875000001,"end":79.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.85034375000001,"end":78.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.69784375,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.34284375,"end":87.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.81471875000001,"end":87.86534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.86534375000001,"end":90.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.44721875,"end":90.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.85221875,"end":91.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.09659375000001,"end":93.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.95721875000001,"end":101.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.46221875,"end":107.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.50346875000001,"end":115.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.38846875,"end":117.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.66659375,"end":117.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.68346875,"end":136.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.26721875,"end":137.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.79846875,"end":140.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.59534375,"end":144.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.44721875000002,"end":145.15596875},{"speaker":"SP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- 10:48:37","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155125","gazette":{"lineno":476,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時40分）謝謝。我們請司長跟署長，部長請先休息。"],["主席：好，請司長還有署長。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。我不知道司長有沒有地方政府的經驗，但我知道署長有啦！"],["林司長清淇：我沒有。"],["李委員柏毅：今天這兩個條例，包含殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一，以及都市計畫法第八十三條之一及第八十五條的修正，其實都是地方自治項目，這我們很清楚。"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：我來解釋一下，殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一，如果針對中低收入以及低收入都要免費來討論的話，請教司長，目前地方政府對於低收入戶是不是都給予免費？"],["林司長清淇：是，現在低收入戶是統一免費……"],["李委員柏毅：全國大概24萬戶左右，都是由地方政府吸收，給予低收入戶殯葬設施的這些……"],["林司長清淇：就是有兩塊，一塊是火化費用，一塊是納骨塔的部分。"],["李委員柏毅：是，這些費用是免費的，請問，目前中低收入戶也免費的，有哪幾個縣市實施？"],["林司長清淇：有部分縣市，像雲林是有實施……"],["李委員柏毅：還有哪個？"],["林司長清淇：基隆是……"],["李委員柏毅：來，我跟你說啦！雲林跟臺中有實施中低以及低收免費，如果今天藉由這個修法把中低也加入，再加上要由中央政府、內政部補助，請問司長，會造成什麼問題？"],["林司長清淇：第一個，這本來就是地方自治事項，以中央法律來規範，已經越過了地方權責，這是第一個。第二個，如果要中央補助，會涉及到中央的錢會跟社福所謂相關補助重疊，還有……"],["李委員柏毅：司長，我舉一個例子給你聽。高雄市的火化費用，設籍高雄市的高雄市民，火化費用是3,500元，如果設籍其他縣市而在高雄市火化，是1萬元，中間差額的補價，由高雄市政府補助給高雄市民6,500元，包含相關的塔位等等。如果經過這次殯葬管理條例的修正，全臺會不會大亂？"],["林司長清淇：會，變成政府要拿出來補貼……"],["李委員柏毅：高雄市旗津的公塔，有高雄市旗津區居民使用公塔的費用，其他區域的居民如果要使用旗津這個公塔，費用是不一樣的，為什麼？因為要保障當地居民。好！再放大來講，如果擴及到全臺灣各縣市，難免公塔大亂；這也涉及到各縣市政府審酌自己的財政狀況，決定要不要實施中低及低收的免費措施。我想相關的配套措施必須跟所有民眾說明清楚，當然如果低收目前都是免費的話，那中低要不要考量更多，這是我們必須進一步討論的，尤其這涉及到地方自治項目。"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：同樣的問題，我要請教吳署長。吳署長，針對地方政府，你是非常內行的，針對都市計畫法第八十三條之一，我講白話，如果我講錯，麻煩你給我指正。開發商、土地商如果要開發這個區域，想要買容積，過去縣市政府是認為地方有很多公共設施保留地沒有辦法徵收完，如果你買了這個公設保留地，地方政府可以給你容積，也幫助地方政府解決公設保留地的問題。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員柏毅：目前為止有沒有講錯？"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯，委員講的非常正確。"],["李委員柏毅：第二個，如果給這個開發商方便，但你買不到公設保留地，其實政府手上的資訊比較多，可以以繳代金的方式給政府，由政府來幫你買，這個就是現在第八十三條之一的用意，用代金的方式來買容積……"],["吳署長欣修：實現徵收公設保留地的目的。"],["李委員柏毅：對！但重點在哪裡？重點在要在這個區域裡面。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["李委員柏毅：如果要開放，而不限於在此區域的話，我們來看一下直轄市、縣（市）政府辦理容積代金取得私有公保地的統計情形，各位請看這一張圖表，臺中市目前的代金收入是223億，申請的一共有63件；我舉我比較熟悉的高雄市來看，它的代金收入是50.4億，件數是488件；實際上有真的取得公保地的面積，你知道臺中市幾公頃嗎？4.47公頃，也就是它收的代金裡面，有高達156億是沒有花出去的，所以它希望可以放寬限制，但放寬這個限制之後，會發生什麼問題，署長？"],["吳署長欣修：變成最後還是沒有辦法真正取得這些公保地，尤其是同一個區內，這樣在這個區內有了更高的容積，結果公共設施用地沒有解決，這會造成這個地區的公共設施環境越來越惡化，但是沒有真實投入。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝署長，你講得非常清楚。請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝部長。部長，我以你過去的選區，也就是我現在的選區──高雄大學重劃區為例，過去在高雄大學這個市地重劃裡面，大量的抵費地到目前為止幾乎已經快變成高雄市地王的情況下，它的抵費地收入，我們還是堅持必須投入高雄大學的這些公共建設，其實道理就跟現在的第八十三條之一規定一樣，希望這些公設保留地的建設可以留在這個都市計畫區域裡面。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["李委員柏毅：過去做的這些堅持，讓高雄大學目前所要推動的，不管是都市建設、興建公園、排水建設等等，都得到大量的挹注，同樣的道理，其實這個也是地方自治事項，必須保障地方政府發展該區域。在這邊我要表達的是，對於第八十三條之一，以及殯葬條例第二十一條之一的修正，內政部希望可以再審慎評估及考慮。部長，請你回應。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的關心。關於委員講到的容積代金取得私有公保地情形，我們當然是希望維持現行條文，不要讓縣市政府取得代金之後，把它移轉到非該地區需要做都市計畫的方法，這樣反而會造成整個都市計畫大亂，好像各縣市地方政府看哪個地方有需要，就把錢移出去，而真正需要改善、改變的地區，反而是越來越亂、越來越破敗，我想這並不符合原來都市計畫法的真義。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝李柏毅委員。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時48分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 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:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:30:14 - 10:40:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155124","gazette":{"lineno":444,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時30分）主席，請部長、還有司長。"],["主席：請部長、林司長。"],["林司長清淇：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：司長，我先請教一個問題，你去過嘉義市的公塔吧？"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["王委員美惠：現在公塔、特別是基督教的公塔不夠用，為此，我曾拜託你回來後研議，與嘉義市政府配合，請問現在如何？"],["林司長清淇：現在因為土地分區問題，包括坡度問題沒有解決，所以那部分還沒有下文。"],["王委員美惠：尚無下文？"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["王委員美惠：差不多何時才會有下文？"],["林司長清淇：我們會再跟嘉義市政府積極協調，看有沒有辦法找到地，這是一個比較關鍵的問題。"],["王委員美惠：對。說實在的，就算要蓋，也要蓋在安全的地方。其實嘉義市是比較特別的，因為那地方位在嘉義縣，以前多為墓地，至少項目為墓地，真要找並不困難。所以我希望司長與嘉義市政府用心找，不能因為不夠用就全部混在一起放。說實在的，要尊重大家的宗教信仰，而且有的宗教並不拿香拜拜，也不誦經，你要人家如何進入一個既拿香拜拜又誦經的地方？司長，這件事情拜託你費心一下。"],["林司長清淇：好，我再跟嘉義市政府積極協調，看有沒有辦法找到地，因為未來後面的公墓有沒有計畫要做，這些事情的取決都要有搭配。"],["王委員美惠：在基督教公塔前其實有一座基督教公墓，但如果蓋在那裡，會怕遮到後面告別式的舉辦，恐怕行不通。所以司長要協助嘉義市政府與教會，找一塊比較好的地方來蓋，畢竟現在已經滿了，拜託！"],["林司長清淇：好。"],["王委員美惠：部長、司長，本席現在要講的是，今天我們討論殯葬所條款，我覺得現在政府的環保做得很好，很多縣市都有樹葬，像臺北市樹葬不僅不用花錢，若先前祖先已經入塔但想改為樹葬的話，還可以領獎勵金。部長，今天我們剛好討論到這條條款，我們不是要中低收入戶就一定要樹葬，不過本席認為要宣導，因為未來樹葬很重要。差不多在15年到20年前，一提到火化大家都說不好，可是現在不但可以接受火化，還有樹葬。像臺北市的做法就可以推廣到各縣市去，司長、部長，你們覺得是不是應該讓各地方政府鼓勵民眾採用樹葬？請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員關心，委員站在環保與土地利用的角度來看問題，讓我非常敬佩。現階段全國採樹葬的總共有2萬7,375位，跟93年相比增加很多。但我們認為可以再加強，因為臺灣土地有限，如果大家都要入塔、都要用到墓地的話，會占到比較多的殯葬用地。但採樹葬就是讓屬於大自然的回歸到大自然，這其實是一個非常好的方向，所以我們會努力來宣導。"],["王委員美惠：部長，我覺得對於樹葬的宣導還不夠，最近臺北市就做得很好，甚至鼓勵已經火化的或已經入塔的祖先遷出改樹葬，且整個過程都仔細處理，這樣是行得通的。剛才部長說要用心做，也有很多同仁說這個條款是在幫助「艱苦人」，即使如此也要有配套。說實在，身為立委看到有人日子不好過，我們心裡也很難過，而且人生走到死亡階段，如果沒地方可埋葬是何等悲哀啊！地方上或許有慈善團體可以幫忙，但我們還是必須面對問題，讓問題可以處理得更好。部長，剛才大家說這是「艱苦人」條款，所謂的「艱苦人」條款就是要把條款修得更好，讓地方政府好好溝通。剛才部長提到，每個地方政府的政策不一定都一樣，所以必須給予協助，看未來遇到這問題時該怎麼做。像嘉義市也有這問題，也有很多慈善團體願意幫忙，但我認為其實不需要他們出面，因為政府就可以幫忙了，這是地方政府的問題，部長要補充說明嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：感謝委員，委員非常瞭解。跟委員報告，嘉義市現在有自辦樹葬……"],["王委員美惠：我知道。"],["劉部長世芳：不過是安置在嘉義縣……"],["王委員美惠：我知道在嘉義縣，這點非常特別。因為嘉義縣市分家時，那塊地就是嘉義市的財產，地點在嘉義縣三界埔。"],["劉部長世芳：對。至於委員提到的第二個部分，我剛才為什麼這樣說？大家都知道若要增加中低收入戶的優惠措施，「免收」聽起來是很不錯，但「免收」會變成各地方縣市政府要吸收費用，所以我們是站在中央的立場替所有的縣市政府講話。所謂「免收」並不是另外編一筆預算補助，不是這樣子的，而是「免收」！既然是「免收」，就是免除縣市地方政府收錢，這樣收入就會遞減；收入遞減的話，會造成各縣市地方政府財政上有些困擾。我剛剛有提到，我們每個縣市政府都去問過了，其實百分之百贊成的並不多，所以這就是我們面臨最大的一個困難跟挑戰，在這裡跟委員報告。"],["王委員美惠：目前我知道雲林有辦，所以可以問雲林的意見以及不辦理的意見，由中央來擔任橋梁解決問題，這點非常重要。"],["劉部長世芳：雲林縣有提到特殊境遇與其他經濟困頓者不希望納入……"],["王委員美惠：對、對。"],["劉部長世芳：也限制只有雲林縣縣民可以，事實上大家都有各種不同的困難……"],["王委員美惠：各縣市都會照顧自己的縣市民眾，這是理所當然的，只是要如何把這個福利做得更好，不要重複補助，以上。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員。","接下來請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:10:42","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:30:05+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155123","委員名稱":"張宏陸","duration":642,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:19:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b49389b6618603acd76ccc55309ce9652759772a8a89b87e0382ba7bf3c0563c50f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.51096875,"end":7.523468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.98721875,"end":10.746593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.763468750000001,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.180968750000002,"end":12.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.31596875,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.602843750000002,"end":12.653468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.653468750000002,"end":13.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.902218750000003,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.406593750000003,"end":26.575343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.71034375,"end":29.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.39784375,"end":29.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.54534375,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.730968750000002,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.781593750000003,"end":31.469093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.11034375,"end":32.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.83596875,"end":35.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.21096875,"end":38.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.53534375,"end":39.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.345343750000005,"end":46.875968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.112218750000004,"end":56.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.29221875,"end":58.35096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.94159375,"end":60.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.658468750000004,"end":63.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.33346875,"end":70.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.41221875000001,"end":73.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.49659375,"end":76.42409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.59284375,"end":81.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.97221875000001,"end":79.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.09034375,"end":79.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.12409375,"end":79.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.00971875,"end":88.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.43909375000001,"end":89.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.97471875000001,"end":91.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.02096875000001,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.74659375,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.96596875,"end":105.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.70659375000001,"end":108.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.38534375,"end":110.57909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.40596875000001,"end":112.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.13159375000001,"end":114.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.58721875,"end":114.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.20721875000001,"end":114.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.49409375,"end":114.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.52784375,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.70034375,"end":118.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.95284375000001,"end":125.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.47096875000001,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.17971875,"end":129.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.71096875,"end":132.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.55034375,"end":139.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.04721875,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.77284375000002,"end":140.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.22846875000002,"end":141.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.68409375000002,"end":141.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.52784375000002,"end":143.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.68784375,"end":149.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.88096875000002,"end":150.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.74159375000002,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.37284375000002,"end":161.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.64284375,"end":161.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.81159375000001,"end":163.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.68909375,"end":162.925343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案例第1、2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、14、15、15、16、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、35、36、36、37、38、39、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":562.554,"end":588.827,"text":"我跟妳講齁寵物的這個東西我認為要解決啦阿也不是馬上要解決但是一定要跟國土署這邊有商量才可以處理同樣的我就是要今天的都市計畫要修正像這個問題如果地方就說可以了那你們中央要審阿十天內沒有審我們地方就可以了阿這樣你怎麼辦你可以管嗎因為過去的經驗來講"},{"start":590.751,"end":618.561,"text":"有爭議案件都不可能是這樣子來處理這樣反而會造成這個案子為什麼會延後嚴重落後其實有些委員會認為那既然要扛這個責任他不如把他全案退回那反而會讓整個事情變得更難處理我就簡單的說舉這個例子嘛對不對那如果殯葬管理有的縣市政府說都市計畫內的土地可以用啊在住宅區旁邊就有啊你國土署要也沒有辦法表示意見那以後台灣的"},{"start":619.793,"end":621.715,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案案"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:19:23 - 10:30:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155123","gazette":{"lineno":363,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時19分）請部長跟管理殯葬業務的司長。"],["主席：好，請部長和殯葬管理的宗教及禮制司司長。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：司長，我想請問一下，殯跟葬有什麼區別？"],["劉部長世芳：按照殯葬管理條例第一條跟第二條的規定，裡面有包括設施、設備，包括火葬場或者是納骨塔等等，但是也有包括殯葬禮儀的部分，所以它一整套下來，其實是非常一個繁複的程序。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，所以我想請問司長殯跟葬的區別，你簡單說一下。"],["林司長清淇：殯主要是殯儀的部分；葬當然就是最後殯儀完成之後的入土或是入塔，這個部分叫做葬。"],["張委員宏陸：兩者不一樣嘛！"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以殯葬管理條例其實是兩個部分合在一起，對不對？"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：好，我再請問司長，今天很多的委員希望低收入戶跟中低收入戶能有補助，各縣市政府有沒有這樣做了？"],["林司長清淇：低收入戶的部分，基本上我們現在的殯葬管理條例就變成強制各縣市政府要配合辦理；至於中低的部分，因為各縣市政府是依據它的財政狀況還有……"],["張委員宏陸：你就只要回答我各縣市政府有沒有做了。"],["林司長清淇：有部分做了。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛！"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛！"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我只要你回答這一句，有嘛！對不對？"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：再來，我想請問一下，各地方縣市政府做的標準有沒有一樣？"],["林司長清淇：不一樣。"],["張委員宏陸：厲害的、能力夠的縣市政府，就做得比較多，對不對？或是它重視這一塊的，就做得比較多，對不對？"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我們也不反對你把中低收入戶等等的納進來或什麼的，但這是各縣市政府每個縣市首長他的施政重點，若他想要對這一塊加強，那也是他的政績，也跟每個人的作風不一樣，對不對？"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：好，如果今天我們照這個法條通過，然後有不足的部分還要中央補助，我想先請問一下司長，地方報上來的補助，你們要不要看一下？還是它報上來多少，你就全部照單全收？"],["林司長清淇：如果我們中央要補助，還是要核實來處理，但是這個難度很高啦！"],["張委員宏陸：我問你，中央要不要去看、去審核？"],["林司長清淇：要。"],["張委員宏陸：我想請問一下，你們人力夠不夠？"],["林司長清淇：絕對不夠。"],["張委員宏陸：你認為如果每個縣市都要這樣子，你們要增加多少人力？大概估一下就好。"],["林司長清淇：各縣市當然至少要增加三、五個人！"],["張委員宏陸：三、五個人就做得到？每個縣市喔！再三、五個人就做得到？我也當過民政局長，你做得到？然後中間都不會有弊端？"],["林司長清淇：這樣當然沒辦法，因為這個部分是很難去深究的。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以中央管的是方向，地方的權責就是地方要去做，然後每個縣市首長做得不一樣，對不對？"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：像我們現在的代理主席，（黃委員建賓）他也當過地方行政首長，如果他要宣布所管轄的地方所有的人都免費，他有沒有這個權責？"],["林司長清淇：有。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛！如果是這樣的情況，按照這個法令，我們不是反對，只是中央的部分，第一個，沒有這個能力；第二個，你遏制了地方自治的基本精神，對不對？"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：而且我再請問一下，各縣市政府不管是社會局或社會科，對於殯葬管理條例今天所提到的，是不是很多的縣市政府都有補助了？"],["林司長清淇：社會救助他們就有一些補助了。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛！都有補助了，對不對？"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：社會救助的科目跟我們今天所要審的殯葬管理條例的科目有沒有一樣？"],["林司長清淇：有喪葬的費用。"],["張委員宏陸：但支出的科目有沒有一樣？"],["林司長清淇：不一樣。"],["張委員宏陸：殯葬管理條例在地方上應該是民政局負責？"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以科目不一樣吧？"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：科目是完全不一樣的，所以今天如果這樣下去，地方會大亂，會不會？部長，地方會大亂嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們已經跟22個縣市地方政府尋求過意見，確實裡面沒有一個是完全贊成的，幾乎都是加諸非常多的條件，也就是說，他們的民政單位跟社政單位，兩邊的意見都不同，所以我們在整合上確實碰到很大的困擾，所以如果倉促入法的話，也會造成地方各縣市地方大亂。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！我擔心的就是這個。中低收入戶如果確實是有需要的，其實在社會救助的部分。地方都有處理了，至於我們如何去放寬或是什麼的，我覺得可以討論，但如果錢全部都中央支出，我覺得這個會亂掉啦！"],["劉部長世芳：對，也就是說，未來是由衛福部支出，還是由內政部民政單位支出，確實會造成很大的紊亂，也就是說，如果你沒有考慮到社會救助法，或者是一般公益團體願意協助的部分的話，反而會造成經費重複補貼，這個就一定會觸法。"],["張委員宏陸：對！我覺得這個大家等一下可以思考一下。","另外，就今天這個部分，我想請問一下國土署署長，司長先不要下去，請問寵物的殯葬是歸內政部管的嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：不是，是農業部。"],["張委員宏陸：你們是管人嘛！對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：如果是寵物，目前來講是依廢棄物清理法，司長，是不是？"],["林司長清淇：寵物目前當然是農業部在管，但是一般的動物屍體是屬於廢棄物的部分。"],["張委員宏陸：目前的法令我認為不完善，每個人都把寵物當成寶，然後用廢棄物清理法，大家一聽都會覺得很奇怪，但農業部也有說，要讓這個合法或是什麼的，署長，我們有沒有要配合做土地變更的或有哪些地方可以設置，他們有沒有找你討論過？"],["吳署長欣修：並沒有。"],["張委員宏陸：並沒有？"],["吳署長欣修：對，從來都沒有去討論，因為我們目前並沒有談到要針對寵物的部分還要再另行劃設分區。"],["張委員宏陸：所以目前沒有嘛！所以你們有沒有注意到農業部他們有公告什麼地方、什麼土地分區可以做寵物的納骨塔，你們有沒有注意到？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，現在有在研商，但是都還沒有確定對外公告，因為到目前為止，我們知道這個是由農業部來主政，農業部如果有提出其他相關需求的話，我們會跟他們一起開會來決定，但是很明確的就是寵物的殯葬不可能跟人的殯葬合在一起。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯，但我今天為什麼特別要問這個，你知道嗎？有的縣市政府有公告非都市計畫裡面的農業區或什麼的，他們有公告可以設置了！雖然這好像是農業部的事情，但是回到我們這邊的土地使用分區，這就變成是國土署的事了。我今天問這個的意思是，其實這也是一個很重要的事情，我覺得農業部本身要跟我們國土署好好地去研究這個問題，不能這樣子隨隨便便的啦！署長，你有聽到嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我知道，因為現在就是變成某些地方政府他們可能只是想用容許使用的項目，但事實上我們到目前都還沒有收到，就是地方政府有在研議，但是我們從來都沒有收到，因為它即使要容許使用，修細則也是要送到我們這邊來。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，寵物的這個部分，我認為要解決啦！也不是馬上要解決，但是一定要跟國土署這邊有商量才可以處理。同樣地，今天的都市計畫法要修正，像這個問題，如果地方說可以了，但你們中央審查後沒有在10天內審核，地方就說這是可以的，這樣你怎麼辦？你可以管嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：因為過去的經驗來講，有爭議的案件都不可能是這樣子來處理，這樣反而會造成這個案子嚴重落後，其實有些委員會認為，既然要扛這個責任，不如把它全案退回，這反而會讓整個事情變得更難處理。"],["張委員宏陸：我就簡單地舉這個例子，有的縣市政府說都市計畫內的土地可以用，在住宅區旁邊就有，你國土署也沒有辦法表示意見，那以後臺灣的國土規劃怎麼辦？署長，你有沒有想過這個問題？"],["吳署長欣修：有，所以現在為什麼我們還是都要求地方這部分一定要經過中央通過才可以。"],["張委員宏陸：我只是簡單點出這會遇到的幾個問題，等一下要討論法律條文時，我們再好好討論。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張召委。","接下來請王美惠委員。","跟委員會報告，李柏毅委員詢答完之後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:07:02","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:19:12+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155122","委員名稱":"黃建賓","duration":422,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:12:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493a6f508bc449752bccc55309ce9652759772a8a89b87e03825e926a7146abeace5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.785343750000001,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.189093750000001,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.931593750000001,"end":14.965343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.965343750000002,"end":16.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.724718750000001,"end":20.719718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.90096875,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.84596875,"end":24.246593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.70221875,"end":25.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.05221875,"end":27.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.60471875,"end":29.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.16971875,"end":37.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.66221875,"end":40.767218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.90221875,"end":43.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.34909375,"end":44.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.90159375,"end":50.048468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.70659375,"end":53.963468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.30096875,"end":54.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.908468750000004,"end":55.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.119093750000005,"end":60.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.16909375,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.632843750000006,"end":67.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.80096875000001,"end":70.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.41221875000001,"end":73.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.33159375000001,"end":74.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.56346875,"end":79.64721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.68096875,"end":81.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.77346875,"end":85.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.97534375000001,"end":98.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.00284375000001,"end":104.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.07784375,"end":111.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.50721875,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.01721875000001,"end":115.42221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.11409375000001,"end":118.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.05034375000001,"end":119.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.60284375,"end":129.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.18784375,"end":135.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.36846875,"end":145.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.74659375000002,"end":146.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.65784375,"end":148.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.96971875,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.42909375000002,"end":160.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.84971875000002,"end":170.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.31659375,"end":174.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.99096875,"end":177.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.96096875,"end":179.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.10409375,"end":182.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.46221875,"end":185.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.94284375,"end":186.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.22534375,"end":191.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.79846875,"end":192.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.41846875000002,"end":193.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.32971875,"end":195.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.47721875000002,"end":196.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.09284375000001,"end":221.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.70096875000002,"end":222.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.78096875000003,"end":231.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.97784375,"end":233.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.01971875,"end":234.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.77909375000002,"end":294.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.23346875000001,"end":244.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.14096875,"end":297.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.95909375,"end":300.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.31721875,"end":304.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.45596875,"end":308.06721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審查委員"},{"start":222.816,"end":225.117,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":248.211,"end":253.697,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":264.73,"end":268.493,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會提供的審查委員會提供的審查委員會提供的審查委員會提供的審查委員會提供的審查委員會提供的審查委員會提供的審查委員會"},{"start":294.67,"end":295.79,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":311.876,"end":318.298,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":338.322,"end":341.844,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":355.772,"end":357.133,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":373.786,"end":378.948,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":396.906,"end":398.947,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:12:10 - 10:19:12","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155122","gazette":{"lineno":343,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時12分）謝謝主席。我們有請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員早。"],["黃委員建賓：部長早安！今天我們要審查殯葬管理條例，有委員說這個叫做「艱苦人」條款，本席在此要跟部長報告及討論的是，除了現在要討論的這個「艱苦人」條款以外，有一群住在臺東的「艱苦人」也很需要中央部會來幫助他們。本席在跑選區的時候，特別是這次風災勘災的過程中，常常聽到類似的話出來，就是很多臺東鄉親都說這輩子當臺東人就算了，下輩子不要再當臺東人。為什麼在這個好山好水的地方，會說出這麼絕望的話？跟部長報告，發展落後、交通嚴重不便，這些都可以忍受，但是在發生重大災害的時候，關注度比其他人還要落後，救命的錢也比別人還要少，我們常常聽人家說同島一命、同島一命，但現在臺東是同島卻苦命！","部長，本席本來昨天就要回臺東再勘災，因為這次颱風讓臺東降下豪大雨，光是太麻里地區累積的雨量就超過1,000毫米，造成太麻里南北坑社區野溪暴漲，土石流衝進社區，有數戶民宅遭到掩埋和沖毀，這是現在的照片，大家可以看一下。但這次颱風造成的損害，到目前為止，沒有中央部會的長官到太麻里勘災，連鄉親都說院長都已經到屏東了，為什麼不來臺東了解一下我們臺東的狀況？如果沒有到現場，怎會知道當地民眾的需求？本席本來昨天要趕回臺東勘災，但是我想身為一個中央民意代表，如果沒有將選區的問題反映到國會上，就不會有媒體，也不會有中央官員知道目前我們太麻里的慘況，所以本席要利用這次質詢和提案的機會，讓中央看到我們臺東目前的困境，之後再回臺東繼續協助救災。在這邊也謝謝召委、謝謝委員會的各位同仁能夠支持，讓建賓有提出臨時提案的機會。","本席要求身為救災的主責單位──內政部，應該儘速前往太麻里勘災，給予幫助，而且在補助上能夠從優、從寬，希望部長能有正面的回應。其實談到補助，部長，臺東經過饒縣長的努力，目前的出生率是呈現正成長，在現在這個少子化時代，那是很大的鼓舞，但是我想不要因為這次中央的不重視，形成讓人離開臺東的推力，特別是遇到天災的時候，連補助都不如其他縣市，這要怎麼辦？人家都說救急不救窮，當颱風過後，我們在整治家園時，還要張羅經費，這種壓力跟悲哀，政府有聽到嗎？所以在這裡，本席也要讓主管單位知道目前臺東的問題。","內政部主管風災震災火災爆炸火山災害救助種類及標準，所以在安遷救助上有制訂補助標準；在淹水的部分，經濟部有水災災害救助種類及標準，所以也有一套淹水的補助標準，現在臺東縣政府參考這兩套標準，制訂了臺東縣災害救助金補助辦法。部長，你曾經當過高雄市副市長，請教一下，高雄市的災害救助金核發辦法中，淹水超過50公分是補助多少錢？"],["劉部長世芳：這一次我比較不清楚，但上一次是兩萬。不過跟委員報告，災害救助金的核發辦法是縣市地方政府自己訂……"],["黃委員建賓：這我知道。"],["劉部長世芳：我要跟黃委員報告，有關到臺東縣勘災的部分，事實上不是只有內政部，包括農業部或是經濟部，他們是主管水利及坡地土石流部分，所以如果要勘災，結合好幾個部會一起去會比較好。我也跟委員報告一下，如果臺東縣在這次大規模風災過後，確實在二備金有關災害救助的建設經費支付有困難的話，中央一定會幫忙，這一定沒有問題。至於您剛剛提到的個案部分，我們會再透過管道尋求縣政府協助，告訴我們在什麼地方，希望可以儘快清理現場、復原，恢復市容，讓臺東縣可以再回復原來的生活品質，這其實是中央跟地方政府一起的責任。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長的允諾。部長，你說到這點，當然這要依各縣市的財政來編列，但你知道全臺灣低收入最多、最高的前三名縣市，第一個就是臺東，第二是花蓮，第三是屏東縣。臺東本來收入就不多，怎麼會有餘裕編列這些基層補助？在此要請部長會同相關部會研議這次卓院長提出來的凱米颱風受災戶救助措施，就是每戶由行政院額外最高再補發兩萬塊，而且要從寬認定，這個部分要拜託部長跟院長再討論。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，在兩萬元的部分，有關低收入戶要從寬認定的部分，我們願意協助，這沒有問題。有關勘災部分，如果縣政府可以提供我們哪個地方是最危急的，我們也願意協調其他部會一起下去勘災。"],["黃委員建賓：是，感謝部長，其實這個新聞都有報導，但是可能有太多的事情讓那個新聞一下就結束了……"],["劉部長世芳：有可能，再加上目前……像昨天臺東和屏東之間又有大規模崩塌，很多幫忙救災的現場工程人員其實都相當地危險，我們希望兩邊都不要有任何安全上的顧慮，在勘災的部分，我們願意從寬辦理，會趕快跟縣政府一起商量。另外，也謝謝臺東縣在這次這麼嚴重的降水及嚴重風災的時候，大家都可以共體時艱，讓臺東縣縣民在生命財產的維護上可以說做得相當好。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長今天很正面的回應。救命錢真的很重要，拜託！這個救命錢千萬不能等，所以拜託部長還有相關各部會主管，能夠儘快協助臺東縣度過這次難關。"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們會後馬上來安排，好嗎？"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：跟縣政府一起安排，邀鄉鎮公所一起協助比較好。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃建賓委員。","接下來請張宏陸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:08:57","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:12:00+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155121","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","duration":537,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:03:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493e650172b9c5fd370cc55309ce9652759772a8a89b87e0382f44c250e4a43652a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.45284375,"end":0.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.101593750000001,"end":12.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.544093750000002,"end":11.759093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.72096875,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.83471875,"end":16.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.10846875,"end":22.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.49971875,"end":24.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.44471875,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.60471875,"end":30.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.39346875,"end":34.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.39721875,"end":37.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.08409375,"end":43.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.55159375,"end":54.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.92534375,"end":55.414718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.414718750000006,"end":55.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.60034375,"end":55.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.80284375,"end":55.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.81971875,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.971593750000004,"end":84.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.38909375,"end":111.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.40596875,"end":84.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.87846875000001,"end":85.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.68159375,"end":103.18784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.67596875000001,"end":132.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.63284375,"end":117.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.71534375000002,"end":130.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.57159375,"end":165.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.53346875,"end":133.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.68034375000002,"end":137.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.96284375000002,"end":165.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.99659375000002,"end":191.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.04721875,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.48596875,"end":166.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.64159375,"end":170.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.82284375,"end":173.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.79846875,"end":195.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.16909375,"end":198.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.00409375,"end":202.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.59034375000002,"end":200.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.65346875,"end":215.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.50971875000002,"end":203.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.54346875000002,"end":203.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.86409375000002,"end":203.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.94846875000002,"end":203.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.98221875000002,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.71034375000002,"end":220.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.45221875000001,"end":221.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.03846875000002,"end":222.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.25784375,"end":227.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.23159375,"end":228.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.61971875,"end":230.79659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.37034375000002,"end":245.17409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.85346875000002,"end":252.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.81471875000003,"end":249.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.00034375,"end":250.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.74659375000002,"end":273.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.74596875000003,"end":257.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.76034375,"end":282.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.10909375,"end":295.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.22534375000004,"end":299.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.44409375000004,"end":306.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.49784375,"end":309.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.05846875000003,"end":316.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.72471875,"end":313.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»: 我要請教一下部長認同投資交易就是投資未來這個計畫嗎?"},{"start":25.479,"end":37.18,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第"},{"start":38.22,"end":40.521,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":67.052,"end":70.634,"text":"所以請教關於這個個案就是建國啤酒廠在上個月重新提交內政部都市計畫委員會目前進度如何是否可以加快進度呢這個部分"},{"start":83.882,"end":87.905,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":112.138,"end":115.5,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":134.97,"end":139.616,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":149.868,"end":153.572,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":166.044,"end":168.506,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 請問我們劉部長如果國土計畫"},{"start":192.444,"end":200.31,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":222.11,"end":237.883,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":243.027,"end":252.533,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 現在是沒有辦法來做這一件事。好重點來了你說會協助原住民就是房屋合法化嘛但是在合法前的話就"},{"start":253.786,"end":270.471,"text":"一條文修正草案案件提示就是要取得評估報告這一筆費用就是上百萬對我們原住民的朋友來說就是非常負擔的內政部有這個怎麼樣如何去協助還有我們國土計劃法在第23條之中針對"},{"start":273.852,"end":285.041,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":300.445,"end":309.31,"text":"規則訂定出來讓我們原住民朋友可以安心可以嗎這個部分這個部分我們會跟原民會這裡加速談因為其實"},{"start":310.151,"end":329.464,"text":"能夠有爭議性的條例已經變得很少了這個部分原民會提出來我們會加速跟他們出來談判所以我們國土計畫實施稱農地總量的不變有八十萬公頃的以上的可耕地的面積但是呢依據2017年農委會的調查只有六十八公頃的農耕"},{"start":336.568,"end":349.023,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。cellence 請問部長面積差了近百分之十五這樣這些出來的土地從哪裡來的這樣子是數據是"},{"start":352.381,"end":375.423,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 跟委員報告啦,因為耕地在這個農發條例裡面它也有定義,但是農業地區它在農發條例也有定義,這兩個定義是不一樣的,那基本上我們所謂的這一個郭陸公農分區裡面我們作為農一、農二、農三、農四這一些可以發展的用地,它並不完全是耕地,但是事實上是屬於農業發展,也就是說……"},{"start":377.585,"end":387.292,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第"},{"start":399.341,"end":410.49,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":423.154,"end":426.116,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":444.827,"end":451.049,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":462.933,"end":477.761,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":491.909,"end":494.691,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":520.725,"end":531.917,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:03:03 - 10:12:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155121","gazette":{"lineno":305,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時3分）謝謝主席，有請部長。部長好。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：麥委員早。"],["麥委員玉珍：我要請教一下部長，認同「投資教育就是投資未來」這句話嗎？「投資教育就是投資未來」這句話。"],["劉部長世芳：不只投資未來，我想現在也非常重要，教育也都非常重要。"],["麥委員玉珍：你認同。好，我再請教你一下，市定古蹟比較重要，還是國家未來教育發展比較重要？"],["劉部長世芳：兩個都非常重要，我們要鑑古，也要知未來，兩個都一起重要，如果我們不知道我們的古蹟及古蹟的歷史脈絡的話，我們變成沒有認同，我想兩個都很重要。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，非常好。我認為古蹟文化保存固然很重要，但還是要兼顧都市、教育、科技的發展，所以請教關於這個個案，就是建國啤酒廠在上個月重新提交內政部都市計畫委員會，目前進度如何？是否可以加快進度呢？"],["劉部長世芳：我請署長來回應，好嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：好，沒問題。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員垂詢。建國啤酒廠變更的案子現在在大會有開過兩次會議，因為在過程當中，當然有一些支持文化保存的，他誤以為作為學校就不會再去重視文化保存，所以這兩次都有過來，我們都還在積極協調當中，希望能夠有共識，讓大會能夠做一個決議，是這樣。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，所以個案變更就是要如何訂出那種標準，還有，不要再把責任推給計畫在進行中、還在討論中，或者是說都市計畫主管認同再確定，因為這個已經拖很久了，所以希望這個部分可以再進行。"],["吳署長欣修：是，也感謝委員的關心。其實這個案子因為雙方的差距已經縮很小了，所以在接下來，只要進度上雙方的共識已經差不多，我想我們會很快地在大會處理這個案子。基本上，對於保存文資、甚至文資的活化，其實大家都是一致的共識，現在是在具體的作法上，如果在這個變更案裡面能夠確認具體的方向，我想提大會要通過的機會就很高。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，就是希望期待近期，不要一直說在規劃……"],["吳署長欣修：好，這個我們會再努力。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，OK！再請教一下，據內政部統計資料，目前全國有將近15萬戶的原住民房屋蓋在非建地的土地上面，請問劉部長，如果國土計畫法上路後，這個房屋都會就地非法，你知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不是這樣子解釋吧！可不可以請署長再回應一下？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實現在國土計畫要準備把最後的功能分區圖上路的同時，就是跟原民會在合作訂定原住民的土地使用管制要點，所以這個土地使用管制要點是依附在國土計畫法裡面。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：所以國土計畫法能上路，原住民土地的管制才能跟著上路。"],["麥委員玉珍：是。"],["吳署長欣修：所以相對地是說，國土計畫能夠上去的話，原住民的這一些房子能夠去申請合法，如果相對在現行的區域計畫裡面，現在是沒有辦法來做這一件事情。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，重點來了，你說會協助原住民房屋合法化嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是合法的前提就是要取得評估報告，這一筆費用就是上百萬，對我們原住民朋友來說是非常大的負擔，內政部如何去協助？還有，國土計畫法在第二十三條之中，針對原住民土地使用的承諾條文裡面，我們內政部原住民族土地使用管制規劃遲遲沒有出爐，原民會主委也說今天（10月7號）會再次開會，我要求這個月可不可以把這個規則訂定出來，讓我們原住民朋友可以安心，這個部分可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分我們會跟原民會再加速，因為其實有爭議性的條文已經變得很少了，這個部分原民會提出來，我們會加速跟他們再來談。"],["麥委員玉珍：再來，我們國土計畫實施稱農地總量不變，有80萬公頃以上的可耕地面積，但是依據2017年農委會的調查，只可提供60萬公頃這樣子的農耕生產面積，但是請問部長，面積差了近15%，這些出多來的土地從哪裡來的？這樣子的數據是造假的嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為耕地在農發條例裡面也有定義，但是農業地區在農發條例也有定義，這兩個定義是不一樣，基本上，我們所謂的國土功能分區裡面，作為農一、農二、農三、農四這一些可以發展的用地，它並不完全是耕地，但是事實上是屬於農業發展，也就是說……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是差異很大。"],["吳署長欣修：我跟委員報告，也包含了農林漁牧的，也包含所謂過去有一些在農地發展上相對比較差的，但事實上它有耕作行為的，我們還是都有列進去。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是原本有約3至4萬公頃的河川地，在不影響防洪的前提下長期農作使用，這些土地是臺灣要種蔬菜、瓜類的地，但是現在卻被劃為土地保育區，臺灣的農地已經夠少了，請問部長，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，這兩個是基於不同法系，一個是水利法，一個是農發條例，基本上，在法條的相對應下，在國土保育地區仍然是可以實施農耕的，這一點……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是我認為內政部溝通不足啦！國家發展計畫的實施固然重要，但也要兼顧好溝通的責任，不要造成人民、農民的恐慌，因為我們要保護，但那邊的統計又有落差，所以我呼籲政府針對地籍資料的老舊，還有實際國土現有統計的差異，一定要進行現場查勘，如果條件符合，才可以列入規劃，並且擴大加碼綠色環境的給付，為臺灣創造良好的糧食自給條件，把良好的農業、農田留給臺灣的下一代。所以我們希望政府要把關，要有正確的數據，不要讓人民在查閱時發現這邊跟那邊有15%的差異，希望這部分要有明確的數據提供給我們農民，讓農民清楚知道需要保育的地方和農耕的地方，這樣對我們農民才更有幫助。"],["吳署長欣修：好，這個我們會跟農業部一起來努力，把這個事情釐清。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","接下來請黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:09:27","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:02:52+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155120","委員名稱":"張智倫","duration":567,"start_time":"2024-10-07T09:53:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4936e5937ef396dc9c1cc55309ce9652759772a8a89b87e0382a4ff21e1e0f9e3ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.384718750000001,"end":7.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.012843750000002,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.98721875,"end":11.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.09596875,"end":17.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.09159375,"end":68.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.16159375,"end":55.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.73096875,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.877843750000004,"end":62.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.25659375000001,"end":70.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.60221875,"end":73.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.11659375,"end":115.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.50659375000001,"end":119.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.91096875000001,"end":153.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.47534375,"end":156.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.68159375000002,"end":160.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.63034375,"end":175.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.78409375,"end":181.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.63971875000001,"end":186.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.82034375,"end":223.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.24471875,"end":200.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.91784375,"end":212.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.67159375000003,"end":233.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.67784375000002,"end":243.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.38534375,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.40159375000002,"end":250.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.67971875,"end":251.43471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.77221875,"end":253.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.29534375000003,"end":252.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.02096875,"end":253.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.24034375000002,"end":254.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.87721875000003,"end":256.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.18909375000004,"end":266.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.28034375000004,"end":272.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.27096875,"end":277.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.52346875,"end":284.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.46346875,"end":321.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.86346875000004,"end":317.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.06971875,"end":319.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.44909375000003,"end":331.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.84409375,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.78784375000004,"end":347.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.85846875000004,"end":350.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.87534375,"end":348.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.58409375,"end":351.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.72284375000004,"end":358.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.44784375,"end":369.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.28659375,"end":363.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.30284375,"end":369.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.71159375,"end":370.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.09971875,"end":373.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.57596875,"end":391.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.76721875000004,"end":394.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.91034375000004,"end":395.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.53471875,"end":399.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.85034375000004,"end":402.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.36909375000005,"end":403.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.10721875,"end":409.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.54534375000003,"end":411.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.54471875,"end":417.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.82221875000005,"end":428.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.96409375,"end":441.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.77221875000004,"end":443.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.89846875,"end":445.379093750000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»: 請劉部長。"},{"start":16.124,"end":31.698,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次"},{"start":39.926,"end":56.032,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":56.992,"end":63.038,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會長審查委員會長審查委員會長審查委員會長審查委員"},{"start":73.268,"end":75.009,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":97.495,"end":98.396,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":120.283,"end":120.864,"text":"一條文修正草案案"},{"start":140.737,"end":144.162,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":156.761,"end":180.435,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。厲往事上苦人多這也是肝苦人條款那這個其實這個法令在低收入戶的部分在106年就已經通過了針對經濟有困頓困難者需要當地政府的認定可以免收火葬費跟塔位那所以我請問一下部長在你們今天的回覆當中有非常多的問題那本席想要來請教"},{"start":181.796,"end":202.545,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草"},{"start":210.788,"end":213.23,"text":"一人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":234.778,"end":245.707,"text":"就是以現在現行的法令現在的二十一條之一因為現在只有包含低收入戶嘛他是可以就是不用去不用去免收這個費用大概是多少錢"},{"start":247.555,"end":252.02,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":267.358,"end":281.23,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員"},{"start":289.878,"end":298.743,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":315.913,"end":325.826,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全"},{"start":331.914,"end":342.988,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第"},{"start":347.935,"end":351.116,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":373.661,"end":378.423,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":399.91,"end":404.073,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":426.047,"end":426.447,"text":"審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":443.854,"end":454.764,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全"},{"start":462.21,"end":490.097,"text":"我們在殯葬管理條例裡面啊大部分是在於設施設備的免費但是還有殯葬服務這一塊那殯葬服務這一塊每個地方政府包括都市計劃或非都市計劃裡面都差非常的多所以這個非常難來估算那個部長不好意思因為剛剛你有預計的經費就是一億多嘛對不對沒有沒有我跟委員報告我們現在的推算還是根據地方縣市政府所支付的費用評估的一個統計表而已"},{"start":491.476,"end":495.162,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":497.045,"end":524.438,"text":"你當時在當立法委員的時候就已經有提出來相關的修法但是當時的稍微不為重他一定有不同的考慮我非常的體貼但是我跟委員報告現在所提出的經費不是全部由中央完全來吸收縣市地方政府要根據社會救助法跟殯葬設施管理條例要能夠吸收一部分包括新北市政府都不一定百分之百完全同意免收這兩個概念真的是不一樣"},{"start":524.778,"end":525.799,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":542.162,"end":547.965,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會議內政委員會議主席劉建國等19人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會議內政委員會議主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:53:25 - 10:02:52","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155120","gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時53分）主席好，各位官員、各位委員，大家早安。是不是有請劉世芳部長？"],["主席：請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：部長早。謝謝今天一大早大家一起來質詢，我今天一大早就來了，剛剛聽到蘇巧慧委員特別提到，有關於土城所長在執行過程中被拖行的狀況我們都非常關心，也希望為這些警察同仁盡一份最大的心力。剛剛部長特別有回復說，現在只要是所有基層警員遇到暴力的或者是執勤上有危險的，基本上未來的認定標準，這些警察殉職都會以因公殉職的方式來做補償的動作，所以最大差別就是他們的撫卹金會從180個月調到240個月，部長，請問是這樣子嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們在預告的時候已經通過了。"],["張委員智倫：可是部長，我要跟你報告一下，從今年2月大家可以看到基隆員警在執勤臺上被一臺貨車衝撞致死，及7月的時候，三重有一個警員在路邊執勤的時候被酒駕撞死，以及土城所長這個案子，就我現在得知，這個新法現在修正過後，基隆那位警員的申請案還沒有通過，現在想要從因公死亡上升為因公殉職，這樣子的補助金，我聽說政府單位還在審查當中，是不是可以麻煩部長？2月到現在，雖然我知道新法才剛施行沒多久，是不是可以儘速來補償、撫慰這些罹難者的家屬？"],["劉部長世芳：好，我想警政署都很努力在爭取最高權益當中。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。我們來討論一下今天最重要的修法主題，關於殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一的修正草案，主要就是要擴大火葬場跟一些骨灰存放設施，本來過去是給一些低收入戶可以來做免收的措施。現在我們的修法，本黨黨團很多委員是希望增加中低收入戶，本席認為這個是非常好的修法，因為我們常常說莫忘世上苦人多，這也是「艱苦人」條款。其實這個法令的低收入戶部分在106年就已經通過了，針對經濟困頓、困難者，經過當地政府的認定就可以免收火葬費跟塔位的費用。我請問一下部長，在你們今天的回復當中有非常多的問題，本席想要請教，這個部分會不會造成地方政府很大幅的財政支出？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，我如果先不論新北市的部分，在我們的統計當中，現在的中低收入戶人數跟低收入戶在全國是差不多，大概在26萬左右……"],["張委員智倫：還在26萬左右。"],["劉部長世芳：對，在26萬左右。剛剛也有人報告過，每一個低收入戶如果設施、設備全部免的話，大概要牽涉到4萬塊……"],["張委員智倫：一位4萬塊，對。"],["劉部長世芳：如果把中低收入再加上去的話，等於縣市地方政府所要支付的財政負擔是多出一倍。"],["張委員智倫：了解。"],["劉部長世芳：對，多出一倍。"],["張委員智倫：我請教一下部長，你有沒有先幫我們統計，就您剛剛講的，你應該對數據非常地清楚，就現行法令來講，低收入戶占現在政府的財政負擔大概是多少錢？"],["劉部長世芳：什麼？"],["張委員智倫：就是以現行法令的第二十一條之一，因為現在只有包含低收入戶，他們免收的這個費用大概是多少錢？因為你說數量，大概人數差不多一致嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：應該是1.2億左右。"],["張委員智倫：1.2億左右。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們都是推估啦！"],["張委員智倫：對，推估1.2億左右，當然我的推估跟你的推估金額……你的推估較我的推估金額大概是多一倍左右，所以我的意思是，其實這不會造成全臺灣的財政……像您報告裡面講的，就是大幅的增加，一年全臺灣才增加1億的免收金額，因此我說這個1億對部長來講，是不是可以跟地方政府協調，甚至中央政府可以幫地方政府來協助支付這筆費用？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我來說明一下，第一個，我們的委員會也有發文給每個縣市地方政府，請求他們徵詢縣市地方政府對這一條上面的意見，內政部自己也有要求每個縣市地方政府的民政單位提供。譬如以新北市來講，新北市有的贊成、有的不一定贊成，也就是他們對於法條裡面所寫的部分不是那麼地明確，而且也牽涉到社會救助法的規定，可能會重複給付……"],["張委員智倫：對，部長，這就是我特別跟您……"],["劉部長世芳：所以這就是我們碰到的一個困擾，每個縣市地方政府的意見都不相同。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長，所以我要跟你報告的就是，第一個，這個金額不是很多，當然每個地方政府有不同的財政問題，所以我希望這筆經費如果中央可以來協助擴大適用範圍，就是剛剛我們大家一直在講的，這是「艱苦人」條款，政府應該……"],["劉部長世芳：「艱苦人」條款我同意，但是先跟委員報告，現在的低收入戶也是各縣市地方政府自己支付的，不是中央支付的……"],["張委員智倫：是，我了解，中央有沒有機會來協助這一塊？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告，現在的殯葬管理條例，我們中央負責的是框架式的部分……"],["張委員智倫：而且也要跟部長拜託，這個東西是免收，也不是一次補貼，所以免收跟補貼……"],["劉部長世芳：我了解……"],["張委員智倫：其法令適用的內容還是有點差異……"],["劉部長世芳：對，但是地方縣市政府就不一定同意啊！"],["張委員智倫：部長，我可不可以先提醒您一下？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員智倫：在我們會議當中，有一個人在上一個會期就同意，也提出這樣的修法，剛剛大概也有提到，就是部長您本身自己，我特別幫你準備了一張……"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，但是……"],["張委員智倫：當時你提案的內容跟提案的法條，你當時不僅有提中低收入戶，你還有提特殊家境的家庭也一起適用。"],["劉部長世芳：特殊境遇。"],["張委員智倫：對，所以以這個經費來講一定會更高，而且地方政府的財政一定會需要更大的支出嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：所以上一屆並沒有通過啊！"],["張委員智倫：可是上一屆差不多已經到最後黨團協商的時候，只差最後臨門一腳，所以我跟部長……"],["劉部長世芳：但就是因為沒有通過，表示各縣市地方政府有不同的意見。"],["張委員智倫：對，所以部長，我要跟你拜託，你從立委高升到內政部部長，蜘蛛人有一句話：「能力越強，責任越大」，所以很多的舉動，一億多的經費，其實在你的一念之間，能不能幫地方政府來統合意見？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，第一個，我們現在的總預算也還沒開始審議；第二個，如果要中央吸收這個部分的話，我們要跟縣市地方政府好好來商量，因為你所提到的是中低收入戶，那低收入戶的部分怎麼辦？"],["張委員智倫：低收入戶一樣包含在裡面……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有、沒有，因為現在低收入戶……"],["張委員智倫：就是再增加一億多的經費，您剛剛有說明。"],["劉部長世芳：現在的低收入戶還是由地方縣市政府來資助，而且他們是社會救助法……"],["張委員智倫：我跟部長報告，這個方法很簡單，低收入戶的部分，我相信地方政府沒有意見，中低收入戶的部分，中央政府會來協助，一人負擔一半。"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告，我們在殯葬管理條例裡面，大部分是在於設施、設備的免費，但是還有殯葬服務這一塊，而殯葬服務這一塊，每個地方政府，包括都市計畫或非都市計畫裡面都差非常地多，所以這個非常難估算，所以要跟委員報告一下。"],["張委員智倫：部長，不好意思，你剛剛有預計的經費就是一億多嘛！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有，我先跟委員報告，我們現在的推算還是根據地方縣市政府所支付的費用評估的一個統計表而已。"],["張委員智倫：所以部長你還有別的數據可以提供嗎？我認為還是要跟部長拜託啦，您當時在當立法委員的時候就已經有提出來相關的修法。"],["劉部長世芳：但是當時的召委林為洲一定有不同的考量……"],["張委員智倫：我相信現在您貴為部長，一定要來體貼這些「艱苦人」。"],["劉部長世芳：我非常地體貼，但是我跟委員報告，現在所提出的經費，不是由中央完全來吸收，縣市地方政府要根據社會救助法跟殯葬設施管理條例吸收一部分……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，部長，社會救助法是一個補貼……"],["劉部長世芳：包括新北市政府都不一定百分之百完全同意。"],["張委員智倫：一個是補貼，一個是免收，這兩個概念真的是不一樣。"],["劉部長世芳：我完全了解，但是縣市地方政府他們願意完全支付這樣子的免收費用的話，我們是可以來協調，因為我們都已經過問22個縣市，大部分有些可以同意，有些不一定同意，包括臺北市也不一定完全願意負擔。"],["張委員智倫：好，部長，沒關係，會後希望大家看怎麼樣，你再把各鄉鎮市統整的資料，大家來討論。"],["劉部長世芳：縣市政府……"],["張委員智倫：希望說上個會期的你，我們一起在這個會期，我們一起來通過、大家一起來努力，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：我們的目標一樣，但是要確定在預算的時候，要怎麼由縣市地方政府來負擔，縣市地方政府的意見，我們也是高度的重視。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員。","接下來請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:08:24","end_time":"2024-10-07T09:53:14+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155119","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","duration":504,"start_time":"2024-10-07T09:44:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4937000c67328bad98acc55309ce9652759772a8a89b87e038212e53a1891d10d935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.472843750000001,"end":9.430343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.610343750000002,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.35284375,"end":24.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.90471875,"end":59.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.228468750000005,"end":74.55096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.64534375000001,"end":65.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.69971875,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.02846875,"end":70.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.86784375,"end":72.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.55096875000001,"end":76.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.96409375,"end":77.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.60534375,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.97659375,"end":114.37596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.36409375000001,"end":82.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.41471875,"end":82.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.84471875,"end":85.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.97534375000001,"end":86.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.69534375,"end":96.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.71409375,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.13159375000001,"end":112.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.37596875000001,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.96284375000002,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.13534375,"end":173.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.98721875,"end":184.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.75846875000002,"end":178.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.03596875000002,"end":256.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.22159375,"end":184.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.08221875,"end":185.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.71471875,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.95346875,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.94721875000002,"end":212.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.99659375000002,"end":247.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.64909375,"end":261.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.15909375,"end":260.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.17159375,"end":263.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.03221875,"end":262.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.61846875000003,"end":292.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.53346875,"end":268.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.51721875000004,"end":379.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.27596875,"end":295.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.21784375000004,"end":316.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.07346875,"end":322.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.29659375,"end":380.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.79846875000004,"end":383.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.75159375000004,"end":386.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.89471875000004,"end":386.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.14784375000005,"end":386.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.33346875,"end":387.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.05471875,"end":396.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.37409375000004,"end":399.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.00659375000004,"end":411.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.47721875,"end":416.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.35409375,"end":418.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.63221875000005,"end":426.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.88409375000003,"end":428.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.77409375,"end":501.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.40096875,"end":440.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.43471875,"end":440.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.45159375000003,"end":440.46846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.46846875000006,"end":440.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.48534375,"end":440.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.50221875000005,"end":440.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.28971875,"end":504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»:"},{"start":19.51,"end":47.528,"text":"來委員好部長今天在質詢的一開始我想先跟您請教一個個案齁這是我們在上個月9月30號的時候新北市土城區我們的清水所所長清水派出所的所長喔劉中興很不幸的在執行一般臨檢的時候發現有異狀結果駕駛呢竟然拒檢還逃逸所以我們所長很盡責抓著車子結果竟然被脫行最後還被撞擊而死亡"},{"start":48.228,"end":55.933,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":74.585,"end":76.165,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":93.49,"end":95.011,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":122.529,"end":123.99,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":143.14,"end":154.784,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":164.628,"end":166.73,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":184.201,"end":185.642,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":216.137,"end":239.195,"text":"一條文有提到合法建築物這幾個字這個名詞的其實一共有大概像七項的法規法條那根據這樣的法規法條合法建築物所牽涉的權利就有如果它是合法建築物它就可以參與都市更新啊圍繞重建啊甚至是這個偏遠地區教學場所免除建築法的相關性等等"},{"start":239.835,"end":244.118,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":263.652,"end":288.735,"text":"跟委員報告,因為他其實本來就擅在各個條文裡面,所以他當時也有,因為有的涉及到徵收土地取得那有些涉及到他相關的權利的認定,所以本來就是讓他隨著各個法條他所認定的但是基本上這個房屋是不是屬於合法性在使用的,其實地方政府出來的查核標準"},{"start":289.415,"end":291.277,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案件事項審查委員審查委員"},{"start":307.116,"end":313.398,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文"},{"start":325.382,"end":327.963,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":353.075,"end":358.816,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":380.742,"end":386.105,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":402.995,"end":426.247,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。 »: 因為在新北他還有其他的用途要使用,所以他相對上來講,比如說我們有一些比較正確的地方,他有一些可能早期也沒有登記,所以我們才會開放很多項目,你只要有其中之一就可以。但是到台北市他希望,他是以都更為主,所以他希望你這些權利的證明文件全部都要非常詳細,他才會願意受理,所以這其實是目的不一樣。"},{"start":426.923,"end":428.564,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":456.88,"end":462.142,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":472.165,"end":472.946,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":504.343,"end":504.531,"text":"一條文修正草案案。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:44:50 - 09:53:14","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155119","gazette":{"lineno":201,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時44分）謝謝主席，請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，今天在質詢的一開始，我想先跟您請教一個個案，在上個月9月30號的時候，新北市土城區清水派出所的所長劉宗鑫很不幸地在執行一般臨檢的時候發現有異狀，結果駕駛竟然拒檢還逃逸，所長很盡責抓著車子，結果竟然被拖行，最後還被撞擊而死亡。我想請問部長，劉所長這樣子的一個案例，我想大家都非常傷痛，以內政部的角度來講，您認為他符不符合因公殉職？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，尤其對於這位優秀的、殉職的派出所所長，我想我們也符合，而且跟委員報告，我們在上個月的時候已經預告這是因公殉職，一定會符合撫卹的最高規定。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯。你們會幫忙爭取嘛？因為其實是銓敘部跟考試院這邊要進行後續處理……"],["劉部長世芳：不會，我跟委員報告，我們在上個月的時候已經預告了，就是因公殉職的部分完全符合規定。"],["蘇委員巧慧：完全符合嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們也有其他的配套措施，這次毒駕的部分所牽涉到的是依托咪酯，跟上次三重的非常像，所以我們請求法務部來協助，現在依托咪酯對外宣告是三級毒品，我們希望能夠在充分討論之後可以宣告成二級毒品，法務部會從其他的管道來爭取一下，因為衛福部認為依托咪酯是一種麻醉藥品，會來做嚴肅的考量。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝部長，所以可見得我們在9月的時候放寬因公殉職的定義，其實真的是很有必要的，不過如果延續剛剛部長說您有配套措施的話，還有另外一小部分我也想跟您提醒、討論一下，即遺族家眷這邊希望劉所長是不是也能夠進入警察公墓？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們當天就已經同意了，因為我有去靈堂上香。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，因為警察公墓的問題我在2020年的時候就有討論過，並協助了它的整建，其實現在的問題還包括了……我們當然不希望這種案件越來越多，但事實上有需要進駐或希望能夠入駐的這種警察同仁是有在增加的狀況，警察公墓的數量是否能夠滿足這些警眷他們的希望，部長了解這個狀況嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：目前入祀到警察公墓的殉職警察，確定沒有錯，蘇委員的觀察非常地仔細，有關於警察公墓增建的部分我們已經在進行當中。"],["蘇委員巧慧：高雄有一處嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：對，北部也有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但我希望能夠預估，然後讓大家的心情上面可以得到更多的尊重，這個部分也許是我們能夠對因公殉職的警察表示最後、最高的尊崇一個很好的方法，所以我希望部長能夠繼續關心這個議題，這是第一件事情。","現在回到跟建築相關的部分，我想部長一定了解什麼是合法建築物，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：在現行的法規裡面有提到合法建築物這幾個字、這個名詞的，其實一共大概有7項的法規、法條，根據這樣的法規、法條，合法建築物所牽涉的權益就有……如果它是合法建築物，它就可以參與都市更新、危老重建，甚至是偏遠地區教學場所免除建築法的相關限制等等。反過來這個意思代表什麼？它如果不是合法建築物，那它就不能有這些權益，沒有錯吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以是不是合法建築物其實是一件很重要的事情？但是我想請問一下部長，我們對合法建築物的定義到底是什麼？有沒有統一規定？部長了解嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我請署長來回答。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，署長，有嗎？我們有統一的定義嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為它其實本來就散在各個條文裡……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，散在各個條文？"],["吳署長欣修：對。所以它當時也……因為有的涉及到徵收、土地取得，有些涉及到它相關權利的認定，所以本來就是讓它隨著各個法條所認定的，但是基本上這個房屋是不是屬於合法性在使用的，其實地方政府出來的查核標準大致上是接近，只是有些細節不一樣……"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長講的我大部分同意，也了解這個歷史脈絡，可是你看，它是或不是合法建築物，後面牽涉的權益會這麼多，影響的都是人民的權利義務。我們看這7項法規都提到，但都沒有定義，能夠有提到的是什麼呢？其實我看到的就是921震災重建暫行條例曾經有過定義，但是後來這個已經廢止了嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：現存的是什麼？現存的就是你們的這個函釋裡面有，2000年的函釋有，根據這個函釋，就像您剛剛說的，其實各縣市政府會有各自不同的規定，所以臺北市和新北市就不一樣了，誰是合法建築物？光是這樣一縣之隔，兩邊就不一樣耶！造成的狀況是什麼？新北市是照內政部剛剛函釋的規定，所以基本上它就是一、二、三，三裡面的8項文件它只要有之一，具備任何一項文件之一，它就可以是合法建築物；可是臺北市是什麼？臺北市等於是這13項都要包含喔！因為它的自治條例寫法不同、規定不同，會造成這樣的寬鬆密度是完全不一樣的效果。署長，您覺得這樣合理嗎？以我們的雙北生活區，基本上條件幾乎是一樣，如果要做這種危老重建、要做其他的建物認定，竟然有這樣的不同，這樣合理嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：當然，因為臺北市原則上大部分現在都是為了都更要用……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["吳署長欣修：所以它在要求的過程當中，希望連當時的面積計算、持分計算通通都要要求到非常嚴格，因為……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這樣兩邊一比較，你就會發現差距非常地大啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對，因為臺北市大概最主要都是為了都更、危老要計算用的，但是在新北還有其他的用途要使用，所以相對上來講，譬如比較鄉下的地方，它有一些可能早期也沒有登記，所以我們才會開放很多項目，只要有其中之一就可以；但是到了臺北市，它是以都更為主，所以它希望這些權利的證明文件全部都要非常詳細，它才會願意受理，所以這其實目的不一樣。"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，我覺得你現在這樣解釋當然是一種解釋方式，可是實際上執行下去以後，在個案的認定上面會有很多因為寬鬆不同而造成大家的感受還是不一樣啊！隔壁這樣就可以了，為什麼我不行？我這樣子就沒有辦法執行，這對人民這種權利義務的感受是非常不一樣的。所以我比較建議的是，合法建築物到底是什麼其實應該要有一個統一的規定，但在這個統一規定當中，要寬或要緊其實你可以在裡面設計範圍標準，但要讓大家覺得這個標準是中央一致規定的，而不是縣市別有差，把你剛剛的這段話化成文字，讓全國人民都可以了解，因為在什麼條件之下，會有寬有緊、不同的標準，我覺得這樣大家心中的公平線也比較符合，這是我的建議，請署長參考。不然的話，現在這樣子大範圍的都更下去，其實新北也有很多都更、臺北也有很多都更，兩者的差距、感受度差距太大，我認為這不是好事，也對都更的推動是不利的，這是我今天的問題，請署長和部長可以參考，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","接下來請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:09:10","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:48:01+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155118","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","duration":550,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:38:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b49317dd79aeaecefd1e825024566f032902772a8a89b87e0382547d61b99647e9e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.549093750000001,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.472843750000001,"end":8.265968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.219093750000003,"end":12.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.754718750000002,"end":17.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.867843750000002,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.825343750000002,"end":23.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.65596875,"end":27.621593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.22096875,"end":41.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.00409375,"end":37.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.38784375,"end":39.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.99096875,"end":40.547843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.66159375,"end":64.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.31596875000001,"end":68.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.06659375000001,"end":70.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.22659375,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.27096875000001,"end":88.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.38846875,"end":90.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.02971875,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.07159375,"end":92.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.96159375,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.20596875000001,"end":102.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.56346875000001,"end":105.09471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.48284375,"end":120.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.85159375,"end":124.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.26034375,"end":126.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.01096875000002,"end":129.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.36096875,"end":130.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.25534375,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.97659375,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.89971875,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.28784375,"end":146.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.02909375000002,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.03721875000002,"end":151.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.09159375000002,"end":153.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.91409375,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.33596875,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.19221875000002,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.67721875,"end":158.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.97659375,"end":159.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.38971875000001,"end":161.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.13221875000002,"end":162.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.14909375000002,"end":163.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.82784375,"end":170.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.05909375000002,"end":178.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.10846875000001,"end":191.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.39784375000002,"end":191.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.83221875,"end":194.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.59971875000002,"end":196.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.97909375,"end":200.45534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.19846875000002,"end":197.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.28284375,"end":197.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.69159375,"end":203.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.13846875000002,"end":205.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.24784375000002,"end":206.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.15034375000002,"end":210.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.78659375,"end":214.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.91721875000002,"end":215.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.54159375,"end":222.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.01721875,"end":223.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.99596875,"end":232.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.27721875,"end":237.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.28909375,"end":252.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.15596875000003,"end":256.19346875},{"sp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風災的垃圾 有人講到這個清潔員非常的辛苦 有人獎金 那天花板是一萬塊 那各縣市有的發五千 六千是最少嘛 那你為什麼不把那個天花板提到五萬或十萬呢"},{"start":122.497,"end":145.97,"text":"颱風來真的是很危險而且是蠻辛苦的,所以像是萬丹,萬丹來,淹水淹到1.8米,將近2米根本整個碰層、家具、裝潑都拖拖拖,這就是當時那村長就跟相公所就槓起來"},{"start":147.331,"end":158.564,"text":"要另外收回這個第一個收回合不合理第二個如果地方在這邊學怕邊環境部會不會主動介入這兩個問題我請署長來"},{"start":166.703,"end":177.611,"text":"是這樣子那個垃圾清雲原則上如果是家戶垃圾在鄉鎮市公所在清雲應該是沒有收費他這個個案到底怎麼回事我們再去了解"},{"start":179.164,"end":206.609,"text":"因為那個時候我有幫忙處理就看到就在那邊對幹那我就想說這環境部隊出手一下就很簡單所以了解一下跟我回報一下好我們來了解一下好不好那那個獎金啊獎金你剛剛沒有回答獎金你說天花板是一萬塊有些好的財務狀況好的縣市一萬塊那是你們發的還是縣市政府這個清潔隊員都是縣市政府那你給他訂天花板幹嘛"},{"start":208.228,"end":237.386,"text":"人家要花五萬十萬有關你屁事啊市長這個是召集一個縣市一起來開會所做的一個決定以上報告我是覺得獎金去訂天花板沒有意義啦人家如果想發而且很辛苦那財務狀況也OK的話樂觀其成嘛樂觀其成因為現在對人太辛苦了"},{"start":238.379,"end":255.432,"text":"那來再請教部長我們上次小琉球那個小琉球的問題文化爐的問題還有有沒有碰到什麼問題另外一個所有的離島的垃圾都運回本島那這次颱風這樣會不會產生一些親印上的問題來"},{"start":257.553,"end":284.567,"text":"小琉球的問題是說我們因為它的建分化廠的話它的這個成本實在太高了所以我們還是用轉運的方式為本島的燃燒目前的其實小琉球其實我必須說也給那個他們鄉長做的也是很認真很不錯我們給予很大的一個肯定那未來我們還是會持續它進行這種轉運的工作不過其實小琉球其實未來或許有一些改變的方式例如說去旅遊也應該把垃圾自己帶回來"},{"start":285.587,"end":308.947,"text":"從源頭的減量每個人減量這種習慣開始做這是最有用的所以我們會努力啦因為小琉球那邊他們環保杯我看推的也還不錯啦對沒錯reuse嘛然後垃圾減量也要還是分類也要更落實啦那鄉長是蠻認真的我們要跟他加油鼓勵那其他外島這次颱風這樣垃圾運回來有沒有問題啊"},{"start":312.561,"end":329.112,"text":"目前是沒有問題沒有問題那你補助地方政府機構的機具設備跟藥品藥品是什麼東西啊例如說一些消毒消毒的燈閣熱的視力酸水啦對對對對對OK那我們"},{"start":336.024,"end":364.953,"text":"那個垃圾的裸露垃圾是屏東縣還是第二名的對那有沒有辦法來幫忙他們應該沒有問題來我們請署長來跟召委報告屏東縣我們有去跟他開過會也見過他的縣長那他這些裸露的垃圾他也是依照我們所規劃的三年的方式會把它做處理以上也是要在三年把它清除完畢對"},{"start":368.388,"end":377.178,"text":"我們屏東縣的破帶稽查是排第9支援回收排第6這個要怎麼來幫忙他們"},{"start":378.717,"end":405.749,"text":"這個其實因為需要這個各鄉鎮公所的清潔隊他們努力的從源頭都要來做然後從焚化爐進場的時候收這個垃圾的時候也都要迫代來看所以這個要從好幾個關卡但是我也必須說要做到像彰化這麼好這個挑戰很大希望委員可以做大力的支持等於是鼓勵這個觀念因為他們垃圾就少了三分之一所以這是成效非常好的"},{"start":406.721,"end":407.662,"text":"我們請副署長不再提供"},{"start":436.252,"end":463.926,"text":"那你們這個官網搞了那麼久結果每天上網觀看的人都不到100個人97個96個那你應該把他連到旅館去民宿業者去對不對讓他們強制他們看嘛因為在1月1號開始就不會供應啦這個是很嚴重的問題以後要去住宿都要自己帶東西所以這個是不是趕快給他突破"},{"start":464.98,"end":478.266,"text":"委員這個其實我們那個有辦活動新聞也都很大我們有公開的宣示啦其實大家都知道啦但是這個要有決心做然後也要讓每個去住宿的人也都有這個提認因為我們到歐洲去這個都沒有嘛"},{"start":480.727,"end":501.817,"text":"最後一個問題我一定準時結束啦好的老師一定準時下課山陀河這個颱風造成屏東很厲害很厲害瞬間陣風16級那整個國小的太陽能板都掉了亂七八糟這些太陽能板的回收部長有沒有什麼觀念有沒有什麼汙染"},{"start":503.09,"end":523.582,"text":"目前的狀況是沒有直接的污染但是我相信他如果到農田的時候還是會有些影響那目前我們是環境部是主管是說這個光電板的回收處理在利用所以這個我們是我們加強的但是會不會對環境衝擊我們在做評估因為這一次是第一次這麼大針對太陽光電板我們會密切注意"},{"start":523.962,"end":524.522,"text":"蘇清泉委員的質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:38:51 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我想這個是屬於職場霸凌我想我們在有關這個涉及到校長對老師的一個霸凌裡面地方政府他就會直接成立這一個委員會裡面來做調查然後就教育部來講我們當然也會直接跟地方教育這個縣市教育局縣市政府來做一些合作 我想"},{"start":244.531,"end":272.308,"text":"老師如果被霸凌地方政府對這個地方對地方政府的一個處置是不滿意的我想他也可以直接跟上級機關直接跟教育部再來做這樣一個投訴所以部長非常清楚知道教育部就是地方政府的教育局的上級嗎是對那部長知道校園也要適用我們通過上一屆我有參與推動的職業安全衛生法這個部長知道吧"},{"start":273.598,"end":301.013,"text":"知道校園職場也適用職業安全衛生法那跟部長講一下這個其實校園的職業安全衛生法這是第一條就有講就是其他機關也適用那第四條也有講到學校就是本法適用於各業所以沒有善盡保護勞工責任的雇主會被處以罰款那部長知道這件事情嗎?雇主如果沒有善盡責任會被處以罰款"},{"start":304.375,"end":308.478,"text":"是的那可不可以請問部長到目前為止有哪個單位被罰了嗎部長知不知道所有校園職場有沒有哪個僱主被罰了"},{"start":319.769,"end":345.909,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前手上是沒有這一個更詳細的一些資料那應該是沒有啦如果你有查到有任何一個僱主被罰了那可以跟可以給本辦這個資料那我們的了解並沒有那部長知不知道為什麼沒有一個僱主被罰我們剛講到好多成案了對不對還有被監察院糾正的為什麼沒有被罰您知道嗎沒有僱主被罰"},{"start":352.398,"end":356.641,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":371.974,"end":396.096,"text":"其實都沒有寫得很清楚就是各機關並沒有妥善保障校園執場的申訴跟相關的仔細的規定那我們把所有的師對師校長對老師都拿出來檢視我們以各校這還是比較好的有些學校有訂出來我們剛剛看到那四個陳情案有些學校連訂都沒有訂網頁都找不到以這兩個有訂的"},{"start":397.637,"end":414.205,"text":"左邊是臺北市某國小申訴中的流程中沒有告知申訴處理的期限右邊是花蓮縣某國中甚至找不到校內有職場霸凌相關規定所以這個職安法在校園中目前"},{"start":415.445,"end":426.66,"text":"幾乎是很多地方是空白的那這個是學校這個部分那當然學校職場霸凌相關規定如果沒有連規定都沒有的話教育部應該監督吧"},{"start":428.393,"end":455.891,"text":"我想謝謝委員提醒這確實會後我們會全面來檢視這只是其中的一層學校裡面有沒有相關的規定那我們看縣市立高中縣市立高中的話應該要向縣市政府教育局處申訴嘛那縣市也會出現行政不周就像我剛剛說的嘉義市被監察院調查的如果縣市出現行政不周教育部是不是有權接手調查請問部長邏輯上是不是這樣"},{"start":459.16,"end":462.103,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席"},{"start":478.415,"end":504.122,"text":"OK 邏輯上部長講得很清楚可是現實上你看這個南投縣政府的相關職場霸凌防制作業完全沒有處理沒有成立調查小組這件事情怎麼辦還有由誰啟動調查這部分也是地方的據說法規中就訂得很模糊了那新北市交局還沒有相關規定網頁只能夠看到勞動局的模板"},{"start":504.902,"end":528.082,"text":"所以他可見只有模板沒有針對這個校園的部分做處理這也是目前疏漏的部分那再跟部長講一下國教署應該要做得最好吧國立高中是不是直接就應該是國教署國立高中如果是校長對老師霸凌的話就直接應該到國教署部長同意吧是的"},{"start":529.642,"end":552.859,"text":"那你看看這裡面的相關的規定那如果國教署的調查中如果出現瑕疵現行法規中也沒有一條點出教育部可以如何處理那如果申訴不符國教署的調查決議完全沒有提供救濟管道究竟是要找行政法院呢還是教育部就直接就可以幫忙救濟了"},{"start":553.419,"end":569.204,"text":"如果連國教署對這件事情的處理方式都是不完全的那我想就是你會沒有出現任何的罰款就可以理解了那教育部自己的校園職場霸凌相關規定也沒有提及救濟跟怎麼懲處僱主的機制"},{"start":571.945,"end":595.066,"text":"所以部長你這樣聽起來這個校園職場安全似乎教育部好像沒有把它當成是一個重要的工作部長有沒有同意到目前為止職安法修過之後你們都沒有完整的檢視你們作為雇主之一你不是雇主唯一啊因為雇主還有學校、地方政府、國教署國教署也是教育部的一部分嘛"},{"start":596.046,"end":610.76,"text":"第一、目前各級機關沒有定定完善的校園職場霸凌處理流程第二、雇主失職時以嘉義市政府為例如果監察院沒有跳下來教育部好像不覺得這件事情跟自己相關"},{"start":612.113,"end":631.792,"text":"那這兩個是不是問題?部長我想這個行政上的一些疏漏督導不足這我們會深切的來改善那另外我想包含老師的一個權益受損這一個我們也會在適當的這個透過行政管道讓老師知道能夠這個尋求這個勞動部一邊來取得這個權力的一個維護"},{"start":635.916,"end":649.406,"text":"那所以相關的申訴機制比如說以嘉義市為例嘉義市教育局去調查不周的時候就應該要有一個後續的一個救濟跟懲處機制所以呢我請部長謝謝您剛的承諾完善各層級校園職場霸凌處理流程二"},{"start":654.449,"end":682.097,"text":"制定各級職場霸凌行政流程處理疏失者的救責機制對我們的年輕世代來講如果沒有良好的職場環境他用腳走路選擇離開那這是我們整個教育界的損失好不好那我們要保障下一代的教育人才能夠安心在校園中把心力放在教育我們的下一代那請部長那個多久之內可以給我這樣一個報告呢這兩點"},{"start":686.324,"end":698.468,"text":"跟委員報告因為涉及到跨部會,是不是可以容許我們有2個月的時間?2個月,好,2個月,那你們不了解的部分就請勞動部協助,好不好?那我就等你2個月的報告了。好,謝謝部長承諾。謝謝委員。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:31:55 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10:43:37","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155116","gazette":{"lineno":416,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時31分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長早安。今天召委安排的主題，一個是老校舍，一個就是鮮奶的相關議題，針對老校舍的部分，我有看到教育部的報告，看起來你們都有在爭取大家關切的預算，我想校舍老不一定是問題，最重要就是安全，所以是不是可以針對安全、防震的評估給我辦公室一個報告？就是你們新的作法，關於補助的部分。","另外還有鮮奶的部分，我剛剛聽下來，包含我自己都有感受到這個用意是好的，只是現在透過地方政府不同的實行方式，加上不管是鮮奶還是保久乳，本身都有一些食材的特質，有些地方讓大家感覺不到美意，甚至造成負擔。","我比較關心的是基層的教師是不是因為這樣子增加了行政負擔？在教育部滾動式檢討的過程中，是不是也能夠在一個月之內，如果你們還沒有大規模改變的話，如何不要造成老師過多的負擔，也給本辦公室一個報告好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["范委員雲：可以吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["范委員雲：今天我還有一個相關的問題就是基層教師，為什麼當老師的人越來越少？聯合報的報導已經讓我們看到臺北市有461個缺額，甄選後還有185個缺額沒有招到老師，之前在教師節的時候我也跟幾個教師工會一起開記者會，我整理了教師荒的五大原因，我就不重複了。","跟今天相關的是，如果鮮奶在發送的時候廠商只能送到某地，還需要老師來發放的話，其實這樣就會導致行政過勞，原本校園中就已經有剛剛講到不管行政大逃亡或是老師過勞，這些都是原因。但是我今天想針對的是另外一個比較少人關注的校園職場霸凌，希望跟教育部做更仔細的討論，部長應該可以了解校園中的職場霸凌很難成案，有一個原因是一旦申訴了，就會影響到自己在職場上的名聲，教師不是一個容易轉職的行業，因為跟中小企業不大一樣。","我辦公室整理了4件，我們都有直接或間接獲報的陳情案，我認為這只是冰山的一角，因為有更多敢怒不敢言的老師，這4個案子我們可以看到有調查成立的，還有學校有法源依據的，還有2案是調查中，其中一個是師對師，3案是校長對老師。以2021年有上新聞的代理教師輕生案為例，嘉義市調查了，可是調查結果是不成立，被監察院糾正，我想請問教育部，你們被監察院糾正之後，有認為有什麼事情是教育部可以事先做的，讓被霸凌的個案不會再以這樣子的一個悲劇結果作結嗎？部長不知道這件事情有沒有檢視過？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，我想這個是屬於職場霸凌，我想有關涉及到校長對老師的霸凌，地方政府就會直接成立委員會來做調查，然後就教育部來講，我們當然也會直接跟地方縣市教育局、縣市政府來做一些合作，我想老師如果被霸凌，對地方政府的處置不滿意的話，我想他也可以直接跟上級機關，直接跟教育部再來做這樣的投訴、申訴等等。"],["范委員雲：所以部長非常清楚知道教育部就是地方政府教育局的上級。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：那部長知道校園也要適用我們上一屆通過、我有參與推動的職業安全衛生法，這個部長知道吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：校園職場也適用職業安全衛生法。那跟部長講一下，其實校園的職業安全衛生法，第一條就有講其他機關也適用，那第四條也有講到學校，就是本法適用於各業，所以沒有善盡保護勞工責任的雇主會被處以罰款。部長知道這件事情嗎？雇主如果沒有善盡責任，會被處以罰款。"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["范委員雲：是的。那可不可以請問部長，到目前為止，有哪個單位被罰了嗎？部長知不知道？所有校園職場有沒有哪個雇主被罰了？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們目前手上是沒有更詳細的這些資料。"],["范委員雲：應該是沒有啦！如果你有查到有任何一個雇主被罰了，那可以給本辦這個資料，我們的了解是並沒有。那部長知不知道為什麼沒有一個雇主被罰？我們剛剛講到好多成案了，對不對？還有被監察院糾正的，為什麼沒有被罰，您知道嗎？沒有雇主被罰。部長應該不知道，其實就是我們現在……因為依照職安法，精神、壓力這些就是處新臺幣三萬元到三十萬元，依照不同的情形，那所以沒有人被罰……其實事實上沒有被開罰，就是目前我們相關的辦法其實都沒有寫得很清楚，就是各機關並沒有妥善保障校園職場的申訴跟相關仔細的規定。我們把所有的師對師、校長對老師都拿出來檢視，我們以各校……這還是比較好的，有些學校有訂出來，我們剛剛看到那4個陳情案，有些學校連訂都沒有訂，網頁都找不到，以這2個有訂的為例，左邊是臺北市某國小的申訴，流程中沒有告知申訴處理的期限；右邊是花蓮縣某國中，甚至找不到校內有職場霸凌相關規定，所以這個職安法在校園中，目前幾乎很多地方是空白的。那這個是學校部分，當然學校職場霸凌相關規定如果沒有，連規定都沒有的話，教育部應該監督吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，這個確實，會後我們會全面來檢視，然後提醒各地方政府。"],["范委員雲：這只是其中的一層，學校裡面有沒有相關的規定。那我們看縣市立高中，縣市立高中的話應該要向縣市政府教育局處申訴，那縣市也會出現行政不周，就像我剛剛說的嘉義市被監察院調查的，如果縣市出現行政不周，教育部是不是有權接手調查？請問部長，邏輯上是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：教育部有這一個監督的角色，他當然也應該可以……只要有投訴，我們當然可以啟動調查。另外，在職場裡面老師受到這一些權力的受害，他當然也可以直接跟勞動部……"],["范委員雲：OK，邏輯上部長講得很清楚，可是現實上，你看南投縣政府的相關職場霸凌防治作業完全沒有處理，沒有成立調查小組，這件事情怎麼辦？還有由誰啟動調查？這部分也是地方的法規中就訂得很模糊了。那新北市教育局還沒有相關規定，網頁只能夠看到勞動局的模板，所以只有模板，沒有針對校園的部分做處理，這也是目前疏漏的部分。再跟部長講一下，國教署應該要做得最好吧！國立高中是不是直接就應該是國教署？國立高中如果是校長對老師霸凌的話，就直接應該到國教署，部長同意吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["范委員雲：那你看看這裡面的相關規定，如果國教署的調查中出現瑕疵，現行法規中也沒有一條點出教育部可以如何處理。如果申訴不服國教署的調查決議，完全沒有提供救濟管道，究竟是要找行政法院呢？還是教育部就直接可以幫忙救濟了？如果連國教署對這件事情的處理方式都是不完全的，那我想你會沒有出現任何的罰款就可以理解了。教育部自己的校園職場霸凌相關規定也沒有提及救濟跟怎麼懲處雇主的機制，所以部長，這樣聽起來似乎教育部好像沒有把校園職場安全當成是一個重要的工作，部長有沒有同意到目前為止，職安法修過之後，你們都沒有完整的檢視你們作為雇主之一，你不是雇主唯一，因為雇主還有學校、地方政府、國教署，國教署也是教育部的一部分，第一個，目前各級機關沒有訂定完善的校園職場霸凌處理流程；第二個，雇主失職的時候，以嘉義市政府為例，如果監察院沒有跳下來，教育部好像不覺得這件事情跟自己相關，那這兩個是不是問題？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想行政上的一些疏漏、督導不周，這我們會深切的來改善。另外，我想包含老師的權益受損，我們也會適當的透過行政管道，讓老師知道能夠尋求勞動部以取得權益的維護。"],["范委員雲：所以相關的申訴機制，譬如說以嘉義市為例，嘉義市教育局調查不周的時候，就應該要有一個後續的救濟跟懲處機制，所以我請部長……謝謝您剛剛的承諾，完善各層級校園職場霸凌處理流程；二、制定各級職場霸凌行政流程處理疏失者的究責機制。對我們的年輕世代來講，如果沒有良好的職場環境，他用腳走路、選擇離開，這是我們整個教育界的損失，好不好？我們要保障下一代的教育人才能夠安心在校園中，把心力放在教育我們的下一代，部長多久之內可以給我這樣一個報告呢？這兩點。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，因為涉及到跨部會，是不是可以容許我們有兩個月的時間？"],["范委員雲：兩個月？好，你們不了解的部分就請勞動部協助，好不好？那我就等你兩個月的報告了。"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長承諾。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲召委。那我們休息5分鐘。","休息（10時43分）","繼續開會（10時48分）"],["主席：接下來我們繼續開會。","有請陳秀寳委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葉元之","范雲","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張嘉郡","洪申翰","張雅琳","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","林月琴","吳春城","黃健豪","黃國昌","牛煦庭","徐富癸","羅智強","吳沛憶","高金素梅","李彥秀"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小\n學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國\n土管理署派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00016"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:10:39","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:38:46+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155114","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","duration":639,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:28:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4936a4151b42b247d4b825024566f032902772a8a89b87e038252f4ff4b236371f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.075968750000001,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.970343750000001,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.23596875000000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10:38:46","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155114","gazette":{"lineno":489,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時28分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長早。大家都知道你以前是氣象專家，對於氣象預報頗有心得。這一次山陀兒颱風的路徑真的很詭異，在臺灣真的走的非常緩慢，我們都在想它到底什麼時候進來，滯留非常久，讓我們緊繃了將近一週。請問部長認為這一次颱風的氣象預報是否有失準的疑慮？"],["彭部長啓明：因為這不是我的工作職責，我上任之後也謹守這個規範，都沒有對外發言。不過我必須說，氣象預報本身就很困難，這次颱風路徑又很詭譎，本來就要用監測取代預報，如果我們回頭看這個數據，我必須說我們的氣象工作人員有做到他該有的職責，但是還有進步的空間。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長。面對這種越來越極端的氣候，即便科技再怎麼發展或者累積再怎麼多的經驗，會遇到的狀況還很多，尤其這樣詭異的颱風和詭異的氣候，也是大多數人的共識，所以面對這樣的氣候，部長是不是也認同我們應該要料敵從嚴？"],["彭部長啓明：當然是要從嚴。"],["廖委員偉翔：要從嚴嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是某大公司的前董事長對於颱風假這件事情多有批評，首先罵很多民眾趁著颱風假出去吃喝玩樂、逛百貨公司，根本看不出必要，所謂颱風假根本是地方政府討好選民的政治操作，再來又說放颱風假在他看來是缺乏韌性的表現。部長，你會覺得颱風假是政治性假期，或是民眾缺乏韌性的爛草莓表現嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我曾經參與過很多地方政府颱風假放假的決定，目前我認為政治性是很低、很低的，當然民眾總是希望有多一點放鬆的機會，這個是人情，所以這個制度到底有沒有調整的空間？我個人認為可以有，但是也請委員知道，臺灣社會對於颱風假的看法已經非常民粹了，所以要改不是那麼容易做得到的事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：好吧！你剛剛也說了，颱風假有其必要性，在極端氣候之下，即便放假後無風無雨，大家應該也是要慶幸沒有發生太多的災害，所以我覺得不應該怪罪地方的首長或是民眾。雖然現在大家想放颱風假的意願可能有別的原因，但對於防災應該不會是太過小心，也不能說想放假的民眾就是韌性不足。最後，有關颱風的問題，其實去年中央氣象局改制升格為署，組織法中也把包含氣候變遷的業務納入，我想這部分也是跨領域的，包含環境、農業、交通等等問題。其中我想局跟署最大的差別是，局是執行業務，署還可以擬定政策，去年在法規修訂的時候，也有人提出說，是不是應該要把氣象局納入到環境部底下升格為署，請問部長怎麼看？我想這樣調整會不會名符其實？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，因為這個很敏感，我是氣象出身當環境部部長，這個事情我是覺得可以讓大家來討論啦，但是因為環境部有氣候變遷署，我們比較做長期的，他們是短期，短期可能跟交通部的職掌是比較相近的，不過他們的氣象人員也有一派主張說到環境部是最合適的，我就尊重大家的意見，也請委員……我沒有辦法公開表達我的看法，但是如果從性質來看的話，對環境氣候變遷，從過去的環境資源部的角度來看，其實或許落在環境資源部的角度會更貼切、會更一體，不過因為現在我們是環境部而已，並不是環境資源部。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，好，謝謝部長，謝謝你的意見，我想我大概也了解，總之，也是一樣，有關於氣候變遷等等的，這個跟環境部的業務也都有相關，的確是大家可以好好來討論的。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來就回到我們今天討論垃圾山的問題，在今天環境部提供的報告裡面，可以歸結出垃圾處理量能不足跟新增垃圾太多應該減少，是兩個主要原因，若不從這兩個方面改善，現在的垃圾山就只會越來越大，也有人諷刺這是臺灣的新百岳。所以我也想請教部長，其實也有媒體說最大的問題是減少塑膠使用，也就是塑膠減塑的政策應該要更徹底的執行，又或者說有業者用產業原料的名義，進口國外的垃圾進來再加工，是不是應該要跟經濟部討論一下限制國外的垃圾進口，部長對此怎麼看？"],["彭部長啓明：有關國際垃圾，我們不會讓它進口到臺灣做SRF的，所以這個請委員可以放心，至於源頭減量是最重要的工作，其實環境部有編列一個資源回收基金，大概有80億，就是在做這個事情，所以我們源頭減量的預算比末端處理的還要多很多啦。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我想這裡用產業原料不一定是做SRF，它可能會進來加工成其他的東西，會不會有這樣的狀況？"],["彭部長啓明：我必須跟委員報告，其實某方面任何的東西都不應該讓它變成垃圾，的確，比如我舉例台積電也要進口一些礦石、稀有礦土進來把它變成晶圓，這樣做循環的處理，它某方面在那個地方可能是垃圾，到這個地方變黃金，所以其實這個部分民眾關心是不是有國際垃圾，我們會努力來監控，也希望很多民眾要是有疑慮的話，都歡迎告訴我們有沒有這種進口垃圾的問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，那可不可以請部長之後把相關的資料和報告，在一個月或兩個月內交給本席？"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：那兩個月好了。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：減塑政策從源頭管理垃圾的產生，部長，有沒有發現其實每次這樣推廣的政策都會有民怨產生？實際上也會讓店家產生無形的負擔，國外反而也有越用越多的情形，顯見不是減塑政策不好或是不應該做，而是有沒有更好或更便利的方式。至於進口廢塑料的部分也要有所限制，畢竟經濟效益有限，但是對我們臺灣的環境負擔是滿大的。剛剛說的這個部分要麻煩您盤點一下，到時候再提供給我。","部長今天的簡報中也有提到，112年暫置的裸露垃圾掩埋場共53場，累計84萬噸，至今年的8月為止已經降到49場、72萬噸，可是你們現在用的是所謂的掩埋覆土跟篩分打包兩種方式處理，並不是完全的去化，而是將裸露的垃圾做到暫時處置的基本要求而已。我想要請教部長，84萬噸的垃圾何時可以完全去化？是否為民國136年？因為我看到好像有這樣的說法。"],["彭部長啓明：目前我們設定是3年，等於是116年。"],["廖委員偉翔：完全去化？"],["彭部長啓明：84萬噸變成妥善處理完。"],["廖委員偉翔：妥善處理，就是我剛剛說的那兩種方式嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對、對。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是這並非完全去化，你覺得84萬噸的垃圾要怎麼樣可以完全去化？何時可以完全去化？"],["彭部長啓明：這個就要透過別的方式，因為很多的縣市政府表達，其實它也可以是一種資源的重新利用……"],["廖委員偉翔：當然，就是一個循環經濟嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對、對。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是怎麼樣可以把這84萬噸都放到這個循環裡面？"],["彭部長啓明：這個要花一點時間，我的簡報在最後面特別提到一個新的想法，我們應該要有一個好的資源循環園區，能夠全循環的來做這個事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，這個部分等一下，因為目前您這個構想有點像是政策方向，很多具體規劃和細節應該都沒有。"],["彭部長啓明：還沒有，我們有這個想法，要規劃。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，目前是想法而已嘛！對不對？所以還有很多具體……"],["彭部長啓明：對，要爭取預算。"],["廖委員偉翔：未來可能要針對細節來問一下部長。我另外想要問，目前裸露的垃圾山還有很大的問題就是火災嘛！我上網隨便查了一下，某一個垃圾掩埋場過去5年就發生71次火災，這個除了現在建置監控之外，有沒有辦法在每個垃圾場設置移動式的水塔，能夠快速撲滅垃圾山的火災？"],["彭部長啓明：有，報告委員，高風險的掩埋場其實都有這樣的措施，不過我也跟委員報告，其實很多國外的垃圾山、掩埋場或是垃圾處理設備，他們也都常常發生火災。我們民眾回收，包含我們的手機亂丟、電池亂丟，現在這種鋰電池都很容易造成火災，這個我們還是要從源頭做起。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我的意思是說現在還有更具體的處理的方法嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：目前說真的，有時候民眾是自己丟到那邊，我們去做分類，這個成本會非常高，我們還是要對民眾再進行呼籲。"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛的意思是說，所以不是每一個垃圾山，只是針對分類是高風險的？"],["彭部長啓明：對，高風險的。"],["廖委員偉翔：那不是高風險的呢？會不會有可能發生？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上高風險的大概都有消防的設備，我們會逐步針對有需要的，我們就會來進行，目前應該沒有全面都裝。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有全面？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有全面，對。"],["顏署長旭明：不過我們在未來3年會投入12億來處理這件事。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這件事情未來也會去執行？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，這部分再拜託部長。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：最後我還是想要問，所以再重新回到剛剛的問題，因為你剛剛說3年內要解決垃圾山問題，所以依照部長的定義，其實好像就是目前的這兩種方案而已，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，你目前上任半年了，你自己評估有辦法達到這樣子的承諾嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，因為現在我們已經全面在發包進行了，應該可以達得到，3年內可以達到。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，但是我還是希望部長可以更長遠來看，因為我覺得完全去化才是終點，這個只是暫時性處理，所以這3年，我希望部長可以再往未來完全去化的方向努力，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席（王委員育敏代）：好，我們謝謝廖偉翔委員的質詢。","接下來我們請蘇清泉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:14:21","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:36:47+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155113","委員名稱":"洪申翰","duration":861,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:22:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493b0c6ef77ced89985de01320d1e415bd4772a8a89b87e038273945759db2c21775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"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- 10:36:47","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":"155113","gazette":{"lineno":249,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時22分）謝謝主席，請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，前兩週在總統府有開了全社會防衛韌性的委員會，這一次是總統府第一次來召開這個委員會，這當然也是接下來臺灣在整體的國家政策的發展上面一個非常、非常重要的主題，我知道除了部長有參與之外，還有很多其他的部會，也包括很多民間的團體、產業界，其實大家也都參與了。大家現在會很關注的點就是從過去大家在談全社會動員到現在其實也有幾年的時間了，我知道國防部一直是由全動署來做有一點像是幕僚單位的綜整，包括很多動員計畫跟任務的規劃，其實大家也會越來越關注，甚至希望有更多的細節出來。我想先問部長，你有沒有看過布袋戲的素還真？這個是一人三化的素還真，你有沒有看過？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：你沒有看布袋戲？"],["顧部長立雄：小時候有看。"],["洪委員申翰：那是在很久以前。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["洪委員申翰：在布袋戲裡面，素還真這個角色一個人扮演三個功能，現在大家會有點擔心或提出一個問題：我們接下來在整個全社會動員的計畫裡面，在動員時期會不會出現比方說同一個警消一個人可能要扮演三個不同的角色？他是同一個人，他在同一個時空裡面可能只能出現一次，但是在三個計畫裡面都有他，那他到底要去哪裡？他到底要做什麼工作？有蠻多關注全社會防衛或全社會動員的朋友其實很關注這個問題，也就是說，我們很多演練背景的想定其實應該要符合實際可調動的資源，部長你同不同意這個概念？"],["顧部長立雄：對，就是說那個背景的想定必須要更結合……"],["洪委員申翰：對，背景的想定要夠清楚，這要符合真正能夠動用的資源，部長，這個概念你應該是同意的吧！"],["顧部長立雄：對，就是說對於可能的重大災害或者是在任何的緊急狀況之下，資源有可能是有限的，所以他必須要去想定這些有限資源要做如何的調配，而不是說他想定某個單一的狀況，然後他可以投入全部的資源在這上面。"],["洪委員申翰：對，部長，所以接下來的問題就來了，在我們的全民防衛動員準備法裡面，其實國防部的角色不只是帶兵打仗，它更要視狀況跟情境來動員包括衛福部、交通部、警政署人力物力的資源，這都是國防部可以動員的問題，所以國防部在擬定計畫的時候，它就必須要了解跟其他部會的相關連動，可是現在我們看到一個狀況，在預想演練情境的時候，就像我剛才講的，到底我們的警消或其他公務人員的任務設定是什麼？接下來在國防部希望調動他們的資源的部分，到底要調動多少？調動去哪裡？這個部分我不知道國防部現在有沒有很清楚的規劃？針對各部會動員計畫的問題，我其實去問了警政署，我問他第一個在動員階段軍方預計會調動多少警力？第二個問他既然預知警政署可以調動的警力可能不是百分之百，但有沒有演練過90%、80%、70%？在警力壓縮的狀況下，它要怎麼維持治安防衛的任務？這幾個問題應該都是很基本的問題，但現在警政署給我的回答都是這樣說的：動員時期我們會被國防部調多少人、執行什麼任務，我們現在不會知道。他們說等到動員時期，國防部自然會跟他們說，或者是說：我不知道調動人數，所以我當然現在沒有辦法回答你，到時候在警力壓縮裡面，我要執行我的治安維護計畫的話，我要怎麼來規劃。現在警政署給我們答案都是這個事情，所以看起來如果國防部一天沒有辦法把它可能在什麼情境裡面會調動多少警力，把警消的人力給計算出來的話，其他部會在規劃他們的任務的時候，它會有很大的困難，它可能也會卡住，不然可能會變成它就是要設想用百分百的警力去做一件事情，可是就像剛才部長說的，這件事情幾乎是不不太可能的事情。所以人員的重複使用，在現在我們很多的動員計畫裡面，看起來是一個問題，其他部會現在確實是要等待國防部給這個情境，可是我要說這個問題我們在問國防部的時候，又發現幾個狀況。我們在問國防部的時候，國防部跟我們說：部會都跟國防部有相關，可是不知道是誰要統籌？部長，針對這個部分，你覺得該怎麼處理？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為我剛好之前在國安會任職，在相當的時間裡面，我們陸續地去盤點這些相關法規，特別是依照全動法還有民防法，可能我們應該有的一個韌性的準備。總統成立全民防衛韌性委員會之後，現在應該是要從盤點進入到驗證的階段，所以整個漢光演習應該要結合民安跟萬安的演習。當然過去本來就有一些結合，不過像民安的話，它都是由地方政府自己來進行，所以我們現在必須要將想定更符合實際的場景，然後來進行一個驗證。這樣子的相關作為已經正在進行當中，因為這是就民力應用的部分，內政部會跟我們這邊來……以國安會為主導，然後會來進行相關的規劃。"],["洪委員申翰：部長。我有問了國防部，就像部長剛才說的盤點、規劃這件事情要進行，這兩個月其實我也找了全動署，包括陸軍後勤指揮部，包括後勤參謀次長室、憲指部等等，我也問他們這個盤點規劃目前會是誰來做、誰來進行？這些單位都回答說：這些事情都跟我們有關係沒有錯，但都不是我們統籌。所以現在的問題是，當我們要來找這個大腦中樞到底是誰來統籌、誰來做情境規劃的時候，我想問就國防部裡面，因為全動署是全動法的秘書，那這個事情會是誰來統籌跟規劃？"],["顧部長立雄：關於跨部會的統籌，我想因為這個部分涉及到國軍的部分，所以整個統籌應該是由國安會來負責統籌。"],["洪委員申翰：會是由國安會統籌是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：對，因為全民防衛韌性委員會的執行秘書是內政部，然後副召集人是國安會，所以國安會針對涉及到跨部會的部分會做一些統籌，來進行符合實際景況的一些推演、想定，然後進行演練及驗證。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，當然國安會不會到立法院來備詢，但是我覺得關於這些情境，包括實際上面的人數、人次，在同一個時空下面可能有不同的任務都會發生，相關的想定跟規劃當然也希望部長可以跟國安會反映一下，看看這個事情到底什麼時候可以有一個比較明確的大致規劃。"],["顧部長立雄：國防部會協助想定。"],["洪委員申翰：這個會協助嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["洪委員申翰：尤其部長剛剛也談到國防部的漢光、同心、萬安演習，比方說它在7月，但涉及到民防、災防的民安演習在5月，涉及到CIA防護的金華演習在9月，以我們不同的演習、不同的演練是在不同的時間裡面，都可能會讓大家錯估了可運用人力的這個問題。針對這部分，當然我知道部長現在也很努力想要把這些綜合的情境去做一個總體的評估，尤其是人事上的評估，但我們在這次的質詢裡面也希望讓部長可以知道，這個想定一天沒有辦法做一個更清楚的釐清，其他部會能夠去做的相關動員計畫很可能就存在高度的不確定，甚至在驗證上面都不確定，我們驗證起來，到底是在驗證真的，還是在驗證假的？其實這對於整體的防衛動員計畫來說都是一個很大的風險，我還是想在這邊表達這件事情。"],["顧部長立雄：委員說的對，所以漢光、同心、萬安跟民安要一起結合來做規劃，金華演習的部分是屬於重大人為的維安，或者是恐怖攻擊的演習，它比較可能可以分開，但是民安、萬安、同心這些現在仍然在規劃的階段，我們會整個通盤檢討實際的場景，並適切來統合規劃。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，針對通盤檢討，我們看到這一次在委員會開完以後，你們有說你們會綜合來評估，大概什麼時候會有一個結果？三個月可不可以？如果給我們一個規劃的報告，三個月可不可以？"],["顧部長立雄：據我的理解，現在正在進行討論當中，內政部會提出一個計畫出來，我們也會提出一個想定出來，然後國安會會做一個討論。"],["洪委員申翰：所以這個想定的綜合規劃辦理，我可不可以請國防部用三個月的時間給外交及國防委員會一個報告？可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有一個公開版的想定，我想這可以提供……"],["洪委員申翰：可以吧！我們要透過這個想定作為一個評估依據的基礎。","再來一件事情是我想再問部長，在全社會防衛韌性委員會上面有提到所謂40萬民力，我知道現在有一些媒體一直想把這40萬民力講成你是不是要搞全民皆兵等等這些事情，我覺得在委員會我還是想先問一下部長，就部長所知，這40萬民力可能會從什麼地方來？我知道主管機關可能是在內政部，但是就你知道的，這所謂40萬民力跟現在媒體或者有些有心人想要去詮釋成的全民皆兵，這中間的差別是什麼？或者它從哪裡來？"],["顧部長立雄：它是民力，不是民兵，這是第一點。第二點，內政部應該會結合義警、義消、還有替代役，因為現在民防的組織人力有老化的現象，所以必須要引進替代役的人力，然後再結合義警、義消，建構一個社區的防護隊等等，是這樣子的概念來建構。"],["洪委員申翰：所以這40萬民力假設我們招募得到的話，它跟國軍的工作、要打仗的工作之間會有什麼差別？我要說的是，這個說法目前已經在很多民間、包括有一些媒體，有些人在操作這件事情流傳，我在這邊想要提醒的事情是，我覺得國防部應該要重視目前大家正在流傳的這些訊息，這裡面所謂40萬民力、民防，到底跟剛剛說到被講成的全民皆兵之間有什麼差別？"],["顧部長立雄：本來根據民防法的相關規定，就是要建構一個應該要有民防團隊，它再結合相關的義警、義消等等，這些民防團隊現在有很多在操作面上有值得檢討的地方，所以必須要就這個民防團隊的組織、訓練等等加以強化，這個時候替代役的部分就會加入，另外當然還有其他的義警、義消，最主要的目的就是在建構一個社會在面臨緊急狀況之下的國家韌性，讓政府持續運作，也讓社會基本的民生核心功能能夠持續運作。"],["洪委員申翰：我自己建議國防部或者應該跟內政部一起，對於這些所謂的民間力量──民力也好、民防也好，到底接下來會用在什麼地方、它的功能會是什麼、它會希望聚集大家來處理什麼樣的問題，我覺得這部分希望也可以加強跟社會的說明，不要讓大家誤會成是全民皆兵、還是什麼軍閥團練之類的事情，我覺得現在確實有些人刻意要去操作這件事情，我要麻煩部長特別留意。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，部長請回。","待會林楚茵委員質詢完畢之後先休息5分鐘。","下一位請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:16:18","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:36:04+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw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我請秘書長好 麻煩秘書長委員好秘書長好 早這幾個大法官 真是落差想要匯讀私刑 還沒有勇氣變歸變歸 就是拾一匯四了"},{"start":40.834,"end":44.257,"text":"設一個頂端的關卡設備的關卡你要做 加做加擔當要捍衛司法的正義要有勇氣承擔你做到大法官你就沒有勇氣承擔嘛 怎樣?要叫在這裡的法官承擔嗎?要叫檢察官承擔嗎?所以這個司法的正義啊在他們的手啊 費用要大金拆散了"},{"start":73.618,"end":77.601,"text":"你覺得一樣,你又聽不懂聽說你要落車啊逆行調動啦逆行調動秘書長先落車,你後面還要對著落車啊實在有違規啦春秋的違國啊這個翁孫駕在問控署問控署說我們這樣一記不二啊"},{"start":101.482,"end":111.646,"text":"那麼2月1日,這是在說什麼?控署公說,沒有喔,不是這樣,不然啦,卻說一天無事得了。上天害你,憑人煞人,還要機台發熱給他運電!世間惡事的事情,求處理!什麼叫做匪徒私刑?你這就是實質,已經匪死了。"},{"start":131.601,"end":134.724,"text":"若要像你現在設的那樣,這37個都不會死若要教育的解說,我不是中港太郎的,那個政界也不會死所以這個大家要發光,靠比早期集團一樣比早期集團更加嚴重,要有勇氣要有勇氣,要有信心,要有承擔,會對人家有好處"},{"start":159.974,"end":163.495,"text":"你就解釋出來嘛!把私刑匯讀就好嘛!但怎麼記不上他?沒意義啦!他才有憲法意志啦!就是說反而最嚴重的那個反刑,而且符合最嚴密的法律定律耶!這樣就可以判私刑對不對?是不是啊?如果這樣,故意殺人!"},{"start":191.554,"end":202.88,"text":"有嚴重嗎?感受最嚴重的反應?故意殺人?故意殺人,這麼大的意志,還要進行、要進一步去分析、發生什麼情況,50條,各個情況。照他的意思,這是調供台詩人,又不叫做嚴重就對了。"},{"start":210.486,"end":211.787,"text":"什麼行為叫做最嚴重的反應?"},{"start":224.433,"end":236.441,"text":"那大法官當然理由裡面有歷史歸咎 蓄意連續殺人 無差別殺人他要說出來啊他的理由裡面有歷史歸咎 他的理由就對了 如果像他這樣啦你若不是故意 那個政界都要打死啦台師死的人 他只要出庭的時候說我不是中邪的啊我沒想要被死啦 開始要告別人他們都死"},{"start":253.356,"end":255.077,"text":"這樣他就不能判死刑了對不對?是不是這樣?我不是告他啊我臨時去的啊 在這文章那裡臨時的啊我沒有要讓他死耶最後他死我才發怒咧?才有現在的解釋 這樣整個就不用死了啦啊"},{"start":284.484,"end":291.79,"text":"所謂說你沒用去嘛!你解說到不得不起嘛!你動輒這裡的大餐不菜!反腐早煮大家都看不見!人民的憤怒嘛!你傷害兩千三百五十萬人的感情嘛!屬我感情嘛!正義的感情嘛!比如說,你敢拿這三十七個就對了齁?他們都犯什麼罪給我們判死刑的?"},{"start":312.56,"end":319.844,"text":"他們裡面就包括271條、378條,共通都是有故意殺人。經濟性高就在3年,因為台人怕崩潰。再來羅馬,窮仔出債,怕3年撤票。這的人這樣沒嚴重,這樣有嚴重嗎?"},{"start":341.766,"end":342.587,"text":"檢察總長你不用拔整層的,我告訴你,你這個剛好當機檢到頭做的那些人你覺得這37個裡面最嚴重、台詞最多的什麼人你知道嗎?"},{"start":371.886,"end":373.287,"text":"有一個五月的啦 辦會平間完這個辦會休息五月 喔 但是我說在那裡判判的理由說什麼呢 他說這就要直接告議 或是第一告議 殺人 這樣你比較有辦法 這樣才可以判處決刑就對了 喔"},{"start":399.415,"end":408.461,"text":"若是間接故意的或是說我不是故意的臨時把你拋給死的臨時把你抬給死的這樣都不能判死刑是不是這樣?是這樣喔我請教你 你法律施法多一點啦這樣你施法有哪一篇的學術和理論主張這種的就是說"},{"start":426.769,"end":427.53,"text":"中文字幕 沛隊字幕"},{"start":441.567,"end":460.543,"text":"報告,大法官的這個判決,我們當然一般的法官當然都是要尊重所以大法官古早已經說了,他們說的他們對就對了啊,立法院委員這裡說的都說危險啊,就要算到他們那裡不是他們說的我們對而已,我現在請教你啊,他解釋這樣啊,對不對全世界有做一個發展,做一本論文說這樣如果說是3期3年啦齁"},{"start":471.209,"end":477.37,"text":"那麼被告我主動說 我就沒準備 我沒準備要跟他談 我不是有無的這樣被告就不會死了我相信 還是跟委員報告 被告當然在訴訟中他都會這樣去講沒有啦 這樣有利沒有啦就是說 因為待會我已經解說了 以你的司法經驗跟你性愛這麼優秀的表現這樣有利嗎 有合理嗎"},{"start":499.299,"end":504.141,"text":"你既然說施行是合憲嘛,那這樣以這種概率有沒有合理?報告,剛才說主任有他的理由啦,他考慮他們當然,討論大法院做成的過程中,都斟酌了很多的這些的相關的這些意見。這些人的判決啦齁,你像那個勞基明講出來,把那個勞書去採取那些賣菜回來。"},{"start":522.637,"end":530.661,"text":"講到這裏把他抱在頭上這樣吹奄奄哪有酒這樣流出來還把他強姦、還把他殺人、還把他搶劫這個狗尾我怎麼不會死啊招待我高的胖子我這個不會死啊阿去美國留學那十年了跟他們男朋友圍著他們老伯沒有跟他嫁錢啊這樣而已啊講到這裏他還要把他們老伯抱好死"},{"start":553.668,"end":560.813,"text":"齁?這也不會死啦!做大法官的解說,這都不會死啦!台師弟兄的尊卿相!完全沒人性!最好說我不是故意的!白色老白色弟!求我們的法律就知道讓他運動!我們的大法官就是說,這個私刑、私刑犯、殺人犯,要有人權!但是咧?"},{"start":581.482,"end":585.007,"text":"這無期徒刑、有期徒刑的人不用有領款,他不用一地關的。為什麼?白色人身的自由就沒重要。白色生命很重要,這有領款的問題。白色一個人、一世人的自由,沒領款的問題嘛。"},{"start":599.26,"end":601.822,"text":"最近一二三都破私刑了結果還有罪過的人發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮"},{"start":627.403,"end":644.391,"text":"所以到4天了 今天4星了?4天還要跟基督徒報仇?這樣你們就爽啦!你們就不安逸啦!台灣國家也不安逸嘛!這樣不是這樣嗎?這樣不是傷害台灣的司法正義?不是傷害人民對司法最好的期待的感情嗎?感冒?你看我咧?"},{"start":649.704,"end":653.647,"text":"憲法法庭113年度憲法法庭113年度判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正"},{"start":679.923,"end":683.605,"text":"發言的質詢是?這八檔他剛才都在忙什麼八檔啊他都在思念什麼金利特的訴訟啊這可不是他常常在念的啊再來啊 要去鑑定啊結果你們給這八檔來這所有的法官都總是在違憲中執行法官他這八檔在做什麼"},{"start":708.505,"end":708.685,"text":"未來這兩天對這37個"},{"start":733.151,"end":736.232,"text":"因為大法官再次解釋很明確啦,我想應該不會那麼久"},{"start":758.496,"end":763.998,"text":"你把這兩天,法務部這兩天這37天,一天你都不會吸一口你說他們覺得這樣他可以離開他要去走行嗎?我跟你說,這個人很聰明,他知道他如果沒做他的事,所以他們都很清楚,為什麼不能去走行?"},{"start":782.166,"end":790.833,"text":"他如果知道說就要去再審 要知道說要去提出這個非常重訴 要不然 無論如何就要判斷他我對這次憲法法庭的判官 我是被記者很多名義給我很多壓力 說他真失望 真失望 台灣走到這個時候"},{"start":811.072,"end":826.063,"text":"不是不能修啊不是不能毀啊但是你還把社會講到大家感情上可以同意你還把這37個都當歹死61個人這61個人的生命比他們白色的時候還有人替這61個人說他們的靈魂受到極度的傷害結果反頭大家都要做聖靈 不能夠歹死"},{"start":840.117,"end":848.24,"text":"這咱簽書兩公約．對人群死命的爆端．要用最嚴格．來面對．我可以答應你．我也可以同情你．也可以理解你．但是當社會．這死命的一條一條被我們爆殺的時候．你敢不敢出來講這句話．敢不．這十五個大法官敢不出來講這句話．"},{"start":871.499,"end":872.96,"text":"忠心悲心嘛這37個喔 看要打死幾個 我跟你講 平時受傷發 要緊傷了主席 我跟你講 這如果沒傷了 就一個打不死 沒一個可以接受的你們現在就變歸變怪 都用一些機靠 你們扯得太多啦 發入白手吧啦"},{"start":896.485,"end":903.049,"text":"這就是民進黨復讀施行大來的虛擬症當然復民進黨也有人支持復讀施行不是這個時候啦不是出息出卻啦"},{"start":927.11,"end":929.691,"text":"回去跟大法官說一下 跟你們議長說一下拜託他要理會進行要求 整天 緊縮 在半天內 把刑事訴訟法的手法送進來本營 這樣好不好我們會盡快 我跟你說半天已經很久了 有辦法嗎"},{"start":952.369,"end":952.509,"text":"我們盡量"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:19:46 - 10:36:04","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155112","gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時19分）主席，我請秘書長。"],["主席：好，麻煩秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：秘書長，早。這幾個大法官很「落漆」，想要廢除死刑又沒勇氣，「變鬼變怪」就是實質廢死，設立層層的關卡，設8個關卡，你要敢做敢當，要捍衛司法的正義，要有勇氣承擔，你做到大法官還沒勇氣承擔，怎麼樣？要叫下面這些法官承擔嗎？要叫檢察官承擔嗎？所以司法的正義在他們的手上毀滅殆盡，「落漆」了！你跟我一樣，你還點頭，聽說你要下車了？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：例行調動。"],["謝委員龍介：例行調動？秘書長先下車，後面就都跟著下車了，實在是有委屈啦！","春秋衛國的王孫賈問孔子說：「與其媚於奧，寧媚於竈，何謂也？」孔子說：「不然，獲罪於天，無所禱也。」傷天害理，逆倫殺人，還期待法律給他恩典，世界上哪有這種事情，豈有此理！什麼叫做廢除死刑？你們這就是已經實質廢死了，如果要像你現在設的這樣，這37個都不會死，如果要照他的解釋，不是故意殺人的，鄭捷也不會死。所以大法官好比詐欺集團一樣，比詐欺集團更嚴重，瞞父騙母要有勇氣，要廢除死刑要有勇氣、要有承擔，下面的人才會好做事情，你就解釋出來嘛！把死刑廢除就好嘛！在那裡裝，沒意義啦！依照憲判的意旨就是犯下最嚴重的犯行，而且符合最嚴密的法律程序，這樣就可以判死刑，對不對？是不是？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是。"],["謝委員龍介：那故意殺人嚴不嚴重？是最嚴重的犯行嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：故意殺人照大法官的意旨還要進一步去分析，包括刑法第五十七條各個情況。"],["謝委員龍介：照他的意思就是故意殺死人還不叫做嚴重就對了，你的意思是這樣嘛！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：殺人還有很多種情形……"],["謝委員龍介：不然什麼叫做最嚴重的犯行？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：有些時候他是防衛或者是各種情形。"],["謝委員龍介：什麼行為才叫做最嚴重的犯行？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：大法官理由裡面有例示幾種……"],["謝委員龍介：要問他啊！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：譬如說蓄意連續殺人、無差別殺人……"],["謝委員龍介：他要說出來啊！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：他的理由裡面有例示……"],["謝委員龍介：他的理由就對了？如果是照他說的那樣，只要不是故意的，被槍決的鄭捷殺死4個人，他只要出庭的時候說不是故意的，我又不想讓他死，誰知道到最後他們都死了，這樣他就不能判死刑了，對不對？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告……"],["謝委員龍介：是不是這樣？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想大概不會當事人這樣說，法官就這樣採啦！法官要斟酌所有的這些證據……"],["謝委員龍介：我不是故意的，我臨時起意的，就臨時在捷運站啊！我沒有要讓他死，最後他死了，我怎麼有辦法？照現在的解釋，鄭捷就不用死了啦！所以我說你沒勇氣嘛！解釋得不三不四，以為這些擔蔥賣菜、販夫走卒大家都看不懂，人民的憤怒嘛！你傷害2,350萬人的感情，司法的感情、正義的感情嘛！秘書長，你知道這37個人他們都犯了什麼罪被判死刑？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：他們裡面有包括第兩百七十一條、第三百四十八條……"],["謝委員龍介：殺人。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：共通都是有故意殺人。"],["謝委員龍介：強制性交後再殺人，等於殺人兼放火，再來擄人，恐嚇取財兼殺人撕票，這些人的行為嚴重嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：報告委員，大法官並沒有說這幾個人的行為不嚴重，這個要將來……"],["謝委員龍介：但是這幾個人不會死了啦！不會死了啦！這樣聽得懂嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：由檢察總長他去斟酌。"],["謝委員龍介：這不可惡？檢察總長，你不用再拉一整串人了，我跟你說，你們剛好童乩兼桌頭一搭一唱。你知不知道這37個人裡面最嚴重、殺死最多人的是什麼人？有一個彭建源放火燒死5個人，大法官在判決的理由說，要直接故意或是擇一故意殺人，這樣才能判處極刑。如果是間接故意，或是說我不是故意的，是臨時把你打死的、臨時把你殺死的，這樣都不能判處死刑，是這樣嗎？是啦！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告……"],["謝委員龍介：我請教你，你法律書讀的比較多，你讀過的書中有哪一篇的學說跟理論這樣主張？就是說故意殺人才叫做惡質，如果不是故意殺人，沒有直接要殺人，這樣就不可惡，有哪一個學理、哪一篇論文這樣寫嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：報告委員，大法官的這個判決，我們一般的法官當然都是要尊重。"],["謝委員龍介：所以隨便大法官他們說，他們說的是對的就對了？立法委員說的都說違憲，就要送到他們那裡，不是他說的一定對，我現在請教你，他的解釋是這樣，全世界有哪一個法典、哪一本論文這樣說？如果是隨機殺人，被告主張說我沒有準備要殺他，我不是預謀的，這樣這個被告就不會死了。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：還是跟委員報告，被告當然在訴訟中都會這樣說，但是……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！這樣有道理嗎？因為大法官已經解釋了，以你的司法經驗跟你生涯這麼優秀的表現，這樣有合理嗎？你既然說死刑是合憲，那他這種解釋合理嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，大法官自然有他的理由啦！大法官作成解釋的過程中，他們都斟酌了很多相關的意見。"],["謝委員龍介：對於這些人的判決，像那個老師去菜市場買菜回來，劉志明拿鐵鎚把她頭打碎，腦漿流出來，還對她強姦、殺人、搶劫，這個到最後也不會死了，照大法官的判決，這個不會死了。去美國留學的那個女孩子跟她男朋友，因為她爸爸不寄錢給她而已，拿鐵鎚把她爸爸打死，這也不會死了，照大法官的解釋，這些都不會死了。","殺死直系尊親屬，完全沒人性，最後說我不是故意的，流眼淚求我們的法律再給他恩典，我們的大法官就說這些死刑犯、殺人犯要有人權，但是這些被判無期徒刑、有期徒刑的人不用有人權，他們不用一致決，為什麼剝削人身的自由就不重要，剝削生命很重要？這有人權的問題，剝削一個人一輩子的自由，沒有人權的問題嗎？秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為死刑執行之後是沒有辦法挽回的，其他這些自由刑、無期徒刑，如果事後發現有錯，還是有救的。最近最典型各位可以看到其他國家……"],["謝委員龍介：最近一、二審都判死刑，結果到最後都怎麼樣？發回、發回、發回，發到這些法官都知道你們的意思就是這樣，所以到更四審，死刑再改判無期徒刑，這樣你們就爽了，你們就滿意了，大法官才會滿意嘛！不是這樣嗎？這樣不是傷害臺灣的司法正義，不是傷害人民對司法最後期待的感情嗎？難道沒有嗎？你的看法呢？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想這個是社會可以仔細去反思跟斟酌的，剛才也有委員講到，世界上面這麼多的國家，我想我們也不會說這些國家通通都沒有司法正義，大法官解釋憲法出來，我想大家都應該要尊重。"],["謝委員龍介：刑事訴訟法修法是不是貴院的職權？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，是。"],["謝委員龍介：是不是我們許院長的職權？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是司法院的職權。"],["謝委員龍介：這八年他都在忙什麼？八年了，他都在思念什麼？金字塔的訴訟是不是他常常在唸的？還有要去鑑定，結果你們讓這八年來所有的判決都在違憲中執行，他這八年在做什麼？他這八年「食飯坩中央」，他都在做什麼？臨去秋波才來做一個「不答不七」的解釋，可惡！怎麼樣，退休了嗎？領一輩子、國家養他一輩子嗎？當米蟲！未來這兩年，對這37個人，刑事訴訟法你們什麼時候要送來本院？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們一定會儘快。"],["謝委員龍介：儘快？我跟你說，我跟你保證啦，你們一定一年半以內不會送過來，你們就再拖兩年，大法官就解釋兩年嘛！你就拖到屎到肛門了還不願意放。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為大法官這一次的解釋很明確，我想應該不會那麼久。"],["謝委員龍介：你們拖這兩年，法務部這兩年對這37個人都不能碰，你說，他可以理解他是不是要去就刑。我跟你說，這些人很聰明，他知道他如果不做他會死，所以他們都很清楚，為什麼不能執行？他知道要去再審，知道要去提出非常上訴，不然明天就要打掉他了。","對於這次憲法法庭的判決，基層很多民意給我很大的壓力，說他們很失望，臺灣走到這個時候不是不能收、不是不能廢，但是你有沒有在社會講到大家感情上可以同意？這37個人總共打死61個人，這61個人的生命被他們剝削的時候，有人替這61個人說他們的人權受到極度的傷害嗎？結果回頭大家都要當聖人，不要把他判死，我們簽署兩公約，對人權生命的剝奪要用最嚴格的標準來面對，我可以答應你，我也可以同情你、也可以理解你，但是當社會這些善良百姓的生命一條一條被剝削的時候，你們有人出來說一句話嗎？有嗎？這15個大法官有出來說一句話嗎？將心比心嘛！這37個看要打死幾個，我告訴你，刑事訴訟法趕快送進來，主席，我跟你說，這如果沒有送進來就一個都打不死，沒有一個可以執行的，你們現在就「變鬼變怪」，都用一些技巧，你們書讀太多，法律懂的太多，法律千萬條，要用哪一條都你們自己在「撨」，這些百姓要怎麼辦？這些販夫走卒、擔蔥賣菜的要怎麼辦？就像砧板上的那塊肉，你們要殺、要割、要煎、要煮隨你們，這就是民進黨廢除死刑帶來的後遺症。當然，非民進黨的也有人支持廢除死刑，但不是這個時候，不是此時此刻。回去跟你們院長說一下，拜託他在離開之前，要求貴院儘速在半年內把刑事訴訟法的修法送進來本院，好不好？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們會儘快，因為大法官也要求我們儘快。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你們說半年已經算很久了，有辦法嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們當然會儘快，但是因為有牽涉到其他部會相關的規定，我們要跟他……"],["謝委員龍介：你看看，秘書長這時候還在閃、還在拖、還在掩護這些殺人犯！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：不會，我們一定儘快。"],["謝委員龍介：半年。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們儘量。"],["謝委員龍介：好。"],["主席：我們休息5分鐘，5分鐘準時到，我們就開始。","休息（10時36分）","繼續開會（10時41分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:09:15","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:33:07+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155111","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","duration":555,"start_time"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主席好 我想請一下劉主委齁 劉主委委員長"},{"start":21.904,"end":45.443,"text":"主委好我想一樣針對國發基金投資的問題繼續往下問因為剛剛張其萊委員他這邊提到說國發基金投資一個特定的一個影片那投這麼多的錢那因為你這邊有特別提到你業報裡面有特別提到說去年我們為國家創造288億的那個獲利那我覺得你也特別提到了說要強化投資管理機制包括"},{"start":46.484,"end":68.861,"text":"投錢的機制、強化投錢的機制的管理還有投後的一個管理還有強化退場機制的執行都沒有錯嘛這是你在業報裡面很清楚講到的一個部分所以對於你那個投錢的評估的一個狀態尤其像針對剛剛張琦海委員提的那部分先給本席一個很清楚的狀態國發基金當時怎麼樣去做這樣的一個投錢的一個評估好不好"},{"start":71.874,"end":94.84,"text":"針對剛剛張啟臺委員提的那個案的部分後續也請給本席一個很完整的一個投錢評估的一個分析報告好不好可以可以齁好然後我在這邊問一下齁主委因為國發基金要配合國家產業發展策略嘛投資上的事業計畫都沒有問題那到去年底為止齁大概投資直接投資70家那投資的投入金額大概734億元我想這數字應該也沒有錯啦齁"},{"start":96.92,"end":124.333,"text":"那我就看到在整個投資先後當中的時候呢那近三年當中呢連續虧損的企業有20家那其中的時候我只看到有5家裡面有詳細的一個評估報告然後這5家裡面呢基本上就是國家基金如果是覺得他投資有些問題的時候應該要特別去關注可是我發現這5家裡面大部分都是破產的解散的、歇業的然後才提出檢討報告"},{"start":125.513,"end":144.595,"text":"那我就完全失去了事先監督公司改善或提前退場或保障投資這樣的一個可能性所以我想說剩下的15家的部分的時候呢我們是不是國家經濟這邊有一個很詳細的一個評估報告那是不是有持續的一個追蹤各位請主委回答一下"},{"start":146.598,"end":169.074,"text":"我來了以後我發現我事實上國發基金在投後管理上面是比較被動一點那我們現在其實我們開始正在改善投後管理的部分那我們會在但是這裡面也牽扯一個問題我們現在有1000多個投資案但是我們的人員不到30位目前的人員不到30位那1000多個投資案每年還要處理270多個投資案"},{"start":170.975,"end":198.813,"text":"直接到我們這裡主委因為你們的業務該怎麼去做其實就是這麼去做要投資這麼多公司一定是要有能力去做投錢的管理跟投後的一個管理那才會去投嘛不可能隨便錢就灑出去因為國發基金不是善財同質所以我看到這裡面這15家裡面呢有兩家變成正常戶其中有一家兆元我之前有質詢過兆元就是一個很離譜的一個情況他整個投入之後呢投資兩億"},{"start":200.234,"end":214.029,"text":"多元進去之後然後虧損掉了1.6億元之後然後我們國發基金任列虧損他就變正常戶了那其他還在追蹤列管的部分是比這情況更糟"},{"start":215.35,"end":230.932,"text":"不是的是這樣因為他已經換成了環球晶的股票被併掉了嘛所以環球晶因為環球晶的營運是正常的所以他才會依據環球晶的現在因為持有是環球晶的股票所以呢他才會列定為正常戶"},{"start":231.772,"end":245.11,"text":"那我想問一下針對趙遠這個部分的時候我們之後有沒有去追究當時我們在108年決定投入之後的時候呢被拖了一年多才開始有讀懂進駐"},{"start":247.092,"end":272.103,"text":"當中顯然有很大的一個行政的一個瑕疵請問一下主委有沒有去追蹤這件事情委員您上次有沒有追究他的責任委員您跟我提了以後我大概有進行了瞭解我們現在做了幾項重大改革第一個就是我們在投資這些企業的時候當時它本身存在它的方向正確但是技能未必是夠所以我們現在增加三個委員做技術評估"},{"start":274.003,"end":293.853,"text":"還有我們會進行市場口碑評估多三個委員那我想再問一個問題多三個委員來做一些市場的評估可是對於投入、投後之後的管理有沒有真正去落實針對這15家公司包括現在Gogoro股價"},{"start":295.033,"end":324.693,"text":"疊了九成然後包括了爐心之前也變全額交割股等等的這些問題我們難道都沒有一個比較積極的一個動作來針對我們投入的一些公司去做一些後續的一些管理嗎有的有的像剛剛委員我沒講完其實我們現在針對當時那幾個問題我們在投資合約裡面也開始明定了就是說你要能夠讓我直接進入董事會我們才會接受第二個他有一些道德條款還有我們公司治理條款"},{"start":325.253,"end":346.966,"text":"那至於頭後的部分呢,我們現在以舉例來講,如新我們已經進入一個評估是否要撤出的評估那,呃,Gogoro呢,我們目前呢是在有開始進行溝通,因為我們並沒有,我們並沒有董事席是在這裡面但是我們已經在找Gogoro來討論跟內容,那未來我們會找他的這個接班團隊裡面來看他的未來的問題"},{"start":349.407,"end":366.827,"text":"主委謝謝針對這其他的部分因為還有十幾家追蹤跟列管戶的時候你之後再給本席一個進一步詳細的一個評估報告他們目前的狀態好不好各家的一個狀態因為我接下來我要問的一個情況是大矽谷計劃大矽谷計劃的時候因為在"},{"start":370.971,"end":391.78,"text":"10月1號的時候其實後來行政院合定通過了嘛那合定通過了之後呢我就看到整個大細股計畫裡頭就是有很多那我們裡面特別提到了34次的AI這個字眼表示AI肯定很重要那你這邊也用了一個微笑曲線這個概念我先不講這微笑曲線它的內容怎麼樣子"},{"start":392.58,"end":418.574,"text":"那我直接把它給用了一個雷達圖把它給弄出來你把那幾個元素把它弄出來包括它的AI伺服器包括主機板包括散熱的部分晶圓代工、IC設計還有應用服務的部分整個綜合能力當中我們很清楚看到AI伺服器跟主機板硬體這邊我們台灣是很強的是很強的全球來說是很強的可是在整個AI當中的時候很大一個應用服務我們也提到了台灣只有1%"},{"start":420.375,"end":431.945,"text":"所以我要問的其實是我們大矽谷計畫裡面講到這麼多的AI的部分的時候那我們接下來針對AI應用服務的地方我們有沒有很具體的做法要怎麼樣來培植這一塊"},{"start":434.008,"end":463.813,"text":"AI應用服務的部分我們現在是會由這個速發部來主政那我這邊因為我過去個人的經驗接觸很深所以我有跟速發部聊過我們會來協助他就我們對產業的認知來做相關的推動那這裡面最重要的是人才跟制度我想我之前也跟委員報告過就是說臺灣現在的制度必須做一定的調整所以我們會來找工會來探討第二個人才的引進的部分我們將來會有兩個方案一個方案是引進"},{"start":463.973,"end":489.43,"text":"主委這個部分因為我時間有限你這部分之後再給我一個很詳細的部分我們怎麼樣去推來尤其怎麼樣去跟桃竹樺大西湖計畫做結合那我這邊有另外一個部分就是我在看到我們就是主委這邊的一個報告針對中小企業的扶植政策裡面這邊有提到一個就是跟台灣大學成立台灣首個校友投資基金這個詳細的內容是怎麼樣子"},{"start":492.252,"end":521.458,"text":"他是我們主要是希望學校能夠成立基金然後呢讓教授跟這些博士生或是碩士生的研究成果國發基金這邊有沒有投入有沒有參與投入我們投三成校友投資七成這個部分因為坦白說像交大也有一個很完整的一個計畫沒錯沒錯那我們也希望說不要獨厚台大很多學校其實也都需要就是國發基金的一個支持好不好那這之後後續怎麼做也許也等於是一個詳細的做法"},{"start":521.758,"end":535.953,"text":"然後另外就是有一個針對海外新創基地東京跟矽谷要做它的條件是怎麼樣去成立的還有比方說我們之後要怎麼去運作然後是不是會有第三第四個這個"},{"start":537.274,"end":538.135,"text":"再給本席一個詳細的書面資料"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:23:52 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所以國小的學生才會講說班班是誰嘛"},{"start":306.668,"end":321.923,"text":"所以我想就是說其實在公共供應企業上面有兩種一種是鮮乳一種是薄酒乳那依照需要都可以去採購我剛剛已經把薄酒乳的量算進去了嘛鮮奶加薄酒乳就是要172萬瓶嘛你現在還差了77.5萬瓶這第一個問題這什麼時候補足我們會再做第二次採購第二次採購"},{"start":328.959,"end":346.415,"text":"那第二次採購那就跳票啦,九月很多人就喝不到啊,對吧?好,第二個齁,就是因為現在已經十月了嘛,所以九月就很多人就沒喝到了嘛。第二,鮮奶為什麼大家沒有辦法喝?是因為很多學校沒有這個條件,剛剛很多委員都提到了。那這個部分有要幫他們解決嗎?"},{"start":348.884,"end":370.998,"text":"這個部分其實在有很多委員也已經到現場執行聽到那我想所有的政策第一次吹動碰到這些問題都會有那有沒有要幫忙解決我們都會實際來面對那能夠希望把這些問題解決讓真的把國產鮮乳能夠推到學校做學童鮮奶現在沒有辦法送到偏鄉學校你們知道嗎很多廠商不願意幫忙送鮮奶到偏鄉學校這個要幫忙解決嗎"},{"start":372.031,"end":397.305,"text":"所有的問題我們都會來幫忙解決怎麼解決啊因為其實配送不會是問題像在阿里山上確實也可以喝到鮮奶我現在就把問題告訴你嘛不要來這邊油槍滑掉好不好我現在就把問題告訴你你說會解決怎麼解決現在廠商就是不願意送所以現在廠商要求偏鄉學校改成保修路我們會再跟廠商來溝通這件事情那如果還有出現這個狀況呢我們盡量來溝通不是盡量嘛現在就是有這個狀況嘛要怎麼解決嘛"},{"start":400.575,"end":420.255,"text":"怎麼解決?你告訴我怎麼解決?那如果你要解決為什麼現在會有這個狀況?我覺得你們來答詢不要這種態度好不好?把問題反映給你就是我們要解決我們要解決那怎麼解決啊?下一次如果稍微拍一樣的題目過來你還是一樣我們會解決但是找不出解決方法啊怎麼解決嘛?"},{"start":422.698,"end":438.911,"text":"其實也有跟廠商提過但是我想學校這邊我們還是要尊重學校就是要喝鮮奶但是廠商不願意送所以要求學校改成薄酒乳這個問題要怎麼解決因為時間不夠第四個問題現在有送薄酒乳的廠商"},{"start":441.408,"end":468.907,"text":"他一次要送一個月所以要堆積了幾千幾千瓶在學校裡面那學校有教育局有去協調說是不是可以請廠商分批送可以讓沒有喝到的學校也可以先喝到但是廠商不願意因為他們說跟農業部簽的合約裡面就是說一次送一個月因為對他們來說可以節省運送的成本但是因為這樣子就會讓很多學校喝不到他不願意做一個分配那請問農業部知道這個事嗎"},{"start":470.479,"end":492.134,"text":"我想謝謝委員提出來也提醒我們農業部知不知道這個事我們也正在協調也正在協調農業部你今天我今天告訴你那麼多的問題你都一副就是我本來就知道但是我就盡量協調但是我沒有要把它處理你給我態度就這樣啊請教一下我剛剛講的問題你什麼時候可以解決什麼時候可以解決"},{"start":493.362,"end":514.23,"text":"如果針對新北的部分,我們當然就是針對新北鮮奶術品,但是…量,第一個量的問題,第二個解決那個鮮奶的冷鏈、冷藏的問題,第三個是偏遠地區配送鮮奶的問題,第四個是保久乳要送,不要一次送一個月,讓它可以分散,讓大家都可以喝得到,農業部大概什麼時候可以提出解決方案?"},{"start":514.977,"end":516.358,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":532.395,"end":553.21,"text":"我請教一下那個校安的部分之前土城的國三生的戈井案的宣判出來了嘛總共判九年嘛那因為是少年犯所以只要三分之一假釋就可以出來關三年就出來了那我個人是覺得啦當然法律是這樣定但是這個對於學校的校園安全"},{"start":554.298,"end":580.715,"text":"我認為是沒有辦法達到什麼賀祖利啦十五歲殺一條人殺一條殺一個人一條人命進去之後三年就出來十八歲出來之後還大圍了啦出來還大圍部長你覺得這樣的法律有賀祖利嗎我想對青少年的許多的發展裡面他們怎麼樣給他們有一個更安全的一個校園學習的一個環境確實是我沒有努力部長"},{"start":581.741,"end":598.454,"text":"我之前一直跟你建議說把學務組、學務處至少生教組可以增設專職的校安人員這其實是很多學校給我的建議一個數據啦因為現在很多生教組長都是代理老師這你應該也知道吧是"},{"start":599.134,"end":625.157,"text":"那大家因為覺得生肖組長的工作太繁重他們平常還有教課所以實在是沒有願意做那現在產生一個叫行政大逃亡生肖組長根本沒有人要兼那我一直建議說可以找專職的校園人員來處理學生事務那上個會期您告訴我說會在開學前給一個報告結果你回給我的報告上面還是說要增設一個副組長的津貼就是讓老師來兼副組長"},{"start":626.83,"end":636.237,"text":"這完全是風馬流不相及現在連組長都找不到人要兼的你又開一個副組長那一樣是帶老師來兼啊這個跟我剛說跟你的訴求是完全不一樣"},{"start":639.108,"end":666.501,"text":"跟我們報告,確實我們現在也在在內部在整體的一個評估在整個……不是,叫部長上個會期你就跟我說在這個會期前會給個報告針對我們說偵測校安人員的部分嘛那你就沒有做到嘛那我不知道說因為這個新的會期又開始是不是可以真的認真的針對我們的問題來回答因為你回到千篇一律都不是針對我們的問題你增加一個副組長沒有解決我們講的問題嗎"},{"start":668.936,"end":670.838,"text":"請部長會後再去葉委員辦公室報告好不好?"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:20:18 - 10:31:45","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155110","gazette":{"lineno":338,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時20分）麻煩請鄭部長。"],["主席：我們有請鄭部長。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。班班有鮮奶這個政策當初是說9月就要開始，讓班班都可以喝到鮮奶，這個政策是不是確定跳票了？確定了嘛。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我不曉得這樣是不是叫做跳票，但是我……"],["葉委員元之：班班的意思就是每一班都有的意思，現在有沒有每一班都有？沒有嘛，這就是跳票了。"],["鄭部長英耀：目前是……"],["葉委員元之：你知道我前幾天問一個國小學生說你們學校有班班喝鮮奶嗎？你知道他回我什麼嗎？他說：「班班是誰？」因為沒有人喝到這個鮮奶，所以他不曉得，他以為班班是一個人，還問我班班是誰。班班喝鮮奶有兩個方向跳票，第一個是有些學校是連保久乳都沒有，連保久乳都沒有送到；第二個是有的學校是喝保久乳，無論是哪一種情況，就是沒有喝到鮮奶，所以跳票。我覺得為什麼今天會排教育部的這個專案報告，我想就是要請教育部來研商討論怎麼解決這個問題，應該是這樣吧！結果今天看到教育部的報告三張紙，比農業部還少，這三張紙裡面對於班班喝鮮奶跳票的原因隻字未提，沒有提到現在每個學校遇到什麼困難，所以沒有找到問題就沒有解決方案。今天部長來，感覺就是：「對啊，我就是做不到，你拿我怎樣？咬我嗎？」的那種態度，我覺得這樣我們非常不能接受。"],["鄭部長英耀：報告委員，我們並不是這樣的態度。"],["葉委員元之：好，那我先把問題跟你講，因為你的報告裡面都沒有這些問題，都沒有提到啊，我先告訴你第一個問題，第一個問題，現在光是農業部跟廠商的契約所簽訂的量就不夠，我舉新北市為例，新北市每個月鮮奶加保久乳要172萬瓶，結果現在還差77.5萬瓶，等於是說你現在就算完全供應，也只能供應大概六成左右，大概缺四成，部長知道這個狀況嗎？部長，你知道這個狀況嗎？你知道我們新北市光是廠商的量就不足，農業部跟廠商簽的供應契約裡面的量就不足，您知道這個狀況嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實新北市副局長有反映這樣的情況……"],["葉委員元之：不是副局長反映啦，我是問你當初政策講得那麼好聽，班班喝鮮奶，這個政策目標我們就不去談了，講得這麼好聽，結果你的量根本就沒有簽到班班喝鮮奶的量，你當初在喊出這個口號的時候是不是存心要欺騙大家？怎麼會連簽的量都不夠？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想農業部也一直在這方面做努力，我們當然……"],["葉委員元之：不是有沒有做努力，你跟我們講班班喝鮮奶，照道理來講你每個月要供應給我們新北市172萬瓶，為什麼還會差到77.5萬瓶呢？光是這件事情就很不合理，我現在還沒有講到配送的問題，我現在是講說你光是量就不夠，怎麼會這樣？部長。農業部。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員關心，我想這件事情是這樣，我們知道酪農生產牛奶是每天生產，它並不是生產完之後放一年的量在那裡，所以其實乳廠跟我們簽約的時候，其實它也是每天一直在生產，這是第一點。第二點是……"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！你知不知道當初簽的量就不夠？知不知道？你知道嗎？次長，你知道嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：我們不夠的部分其實還會再……"],["葉委員元之：你知不知道當初簽就不夠，知道嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：會再做第二次採購。"],["葉委員元之：不是，你知不知道嘛！那這樣好不好？你改一個口號，兩班喝鮮奶，好不好？"],["杜次長文珍：應該不是這樣……"],["葉委員元之：好不好？不要講班班喝鮮奶，或二分之一班喝鮮奶。","不好意思，我們在質詢的時候，民進黨的委員不要在下面打擾，好不好？等一下你講話、你質詢，我也在下面聊天。"],["杜次長文珍：這個契約都是可以再……"],["葉委員元之：我們現在在幫學校監督，然後你在那邊打擾我！"],["杜次長文珍：是，謝謝委員關心……"],["葉委員元之：那你不要喊班班喝鮮奶，因為你喊了班班喝鮮奶，人家會覺得奇怪，為什麼我們班沒有嘛！為什麼會沒有？為什麼沒有？就沒有嘛！所以國小學生才會講說班班是誰嘛！"],["杜次長文珍：是，其實在公共供應契約上面有兩種，一種是鮮乳，一種是保久乳，依照需要都可以去採購……"],["葉委員元之：不是，我剛剛已經把保久乳的量算進去了，鮮奶加保久乳就是要172萬瓶，你現在還差了77.5萬瓶，這是第一個問題，這什麼時候補足？"],["杜次長文珍：我們會再做第二次採購。"],["葉委員元之：好，第二次採購？第二次採購的話那就跳票啦！9月很多人就喝不到，對吧？因為現在已經10月了，所以9月很多人就沒喝到了。第二，為什麼大家沒有辦法喝到鮮奶？是因為很多學校沒有這個條件，剛剛很多委員都提到了，這個部分有要幫他們解決嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：這個部分其實很多委員也有在現場質詢到，我想所有的政策第一次推動都會碰到這些問題……"],["葉委員元之：都會有？那有沒有要幫忙解決？"],["杜次長文珍：我們都會實際來面對，希望能夠解決這一些問題，真的把國產鮮乳推給學校的所有學童。"],["葉委員元之：第三，你知道鮮奶現在沒有辦法送到偏鄉學校嗎？很多廠商不願意幫忙送鮮奶到偏鄉學校，這個要幫忙解決嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：所有的問題我們都會來幫忙解決。"],["葉委員元之：怎麼解決？"],["杜次長文珍：因為配送不會是問題，像在阿里山上確實也可以喝到鮮奶。"],["葉委員元之：我現在就把問題告訴你，不要來這邊油腔滑調，好不好？我現在就把問題告訴你，你說會解決是要怎麼解決？現在廠商就是不願意送，所以現在廠商要求偏鄉學校改成保久乳。"],["杜次長文珍：我想這個部分，我們會再跟廠商來溝通這些……"],["葉委員元之：如果還有再出現這個狀況呢？"],["杜次長文珍：我們儘量來溝通。"],["葉委員元之：不是儘量嘛！現在就是有這個狀況，你要怎麼解決？"],["杜次長文珍：我們一定會找學校……"],["葉委員元之：怎麼解決？你告訴我怎麼解決？如果你要解決，為什麼現在會有這個狀況？"],["杜次長文珍：因為各縣市的……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得你們來答詢不要這樣的態度，好不好？本席把問題反映給你，就是我們要解決，那要怎麼解決？下一次如果召委排一樣的題目，你還是一樣回答我們會解決，但是找不出解決方法，你要怎麼解決嘛？"],["杜次長文珍：其實有跟廠商提過，但是學校這邊我們還是要尊重……"],["葉委員元之：學校就是要喝鮮奶，但是廠商不願意送，所以要求學校改成保久乳，這個問題要怎麼解決？因為時間不夠……","第四個問題，現在有送保久乳的廠商一次要送一個月，所以堆積了幾千瓶在學校裡面，教育局有去協調看是不是可以請廠商分批送，讓沒有喝到的學校也可以先喝到，但是廠商不願意，因為他們說跟農業部簽的合約裡面就是說一次送一個月，因為對他們來說可以節省運送的成本，但是因為這樣子，就會讓很多學校喝不到，它不願意做一個分配，請問農業部知道這件事嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員提出來，也提醒我們……"],["葉委員元之：沒有、沒有，農業部知不知道這件事？"],["杜次長文珍：我們也正在協調有一些……"],["葉委員元之：也正在協調？"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["葉委員元之：農業部，我今天告訴你那麼多的問題，你都一副你本來就知道，你就儘量協調，但是你沒有要處理，你給我的態度就是這樣，請教一下我剛剛講的問題你什麼時候可以解決，什麼時候可以解決？"],["杜次長文珍：如果針對新北的部分，我們當然就針對新北先來處理，但是……"],["葉委員元之：第一個，量的問題……"],["杜次長文珍：量的話，就是再採購。"],["葉委員元之：第二個，解決鮮奶冷鏈、冷藏的問題，第三個是偏遠地區配送鮮奶的問題，第四個是保久乳要送，不要一次送一個月，讓它可以分散、讓大家都可以喝得到，農業部大概什麼時候可以提出解決方案？"],["杜次長文珍：我們這個月一定會再……"],["葉委員元之：這個月？好，你可不可以把解決的方案……因為今天看來你沒有方案，你把方案寫成報告提供給教育及文化委員會，可不可以？一個月內。"],["杜次長文珍：好。"],["葉委員元之：可以嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：好。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。接下來我想問教育部長，請教一下校安的部分，之前土城國三生割頸案的宣判出來了，總共判9年，因為是少年犯，所以只要三分之一假釋就可以出來，關3年就出來了，當然法律是這樣定，但是這個對於學校的校園安全，我認為是沒有辦法達到什麼嚇阻力，15歲殺一個人、一條人命，進去之後3年就出來、18歲就出來，出來之後還大尾了。部長覺得這樣的法律有嚇阻力嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想對青少年許多的發展裡面，怎麼樣給他們一個更安全的校園學習環境，確實是我們要努力的。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我之前一直跟你建議把學務處，至少生教組可以增設專職的校安人員，這其實是很多學校給我的建議，給你一個數據，因為現在很多生教組長都是代理老師，這你應該也知道吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：大家因為覺得生教組長的工作太繁重，他們平常還要教課，所以實在是沒有人願意做，現在產生一個行政大逃亡的現象，生教組長根本沒有人要兼，我一直建議可以找專職的校安人員來處理學生事務，上個會期你告訴我說會在開學前給一個報告，結果你回給我的報告上面還是說要增設一個副組長的津貼，就是讓老師來兼副組長，這完全是風馬牛不相及，現在連組長都找不到人要兼了，你又開一個副組長，一樣是代理老師來兼，這跟我當初跟你的訴求完全不一樣。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實我們現在也在內部做一個整體的評估，在整個……"],["葉委員元之：不是，部長，上個會期你就跟我說在這個會期前針對增設校安人員的部分會給個報告，但你就沒有做到嘛！因為新的會期又開始，是不是可以真的認真的針對我們的問題來回答，因為你回的千篇一律都不是針對我們的問題，你增加一個副組長沒有解決我們講的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會來檢討。"],["葉委員元之：所以什麼時候會有答案？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實因為它整個人事上裡面所有的……我們會後會再跟委員報告。"],["葉委員元之：會後是不是？好，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長會後再去葉委員辦公室報告，好不好？謝謝葉元之委員。接下來有請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葉元之","范雲","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張嘉郡","洪申翰","張雅琳","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","林月琴","吳春城","黃健豪","黃國昌","牛煦庭","徐富癸","羅智強","吳沛憶","高金素梅","李彥秀"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小\n學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向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其他縣市比較少 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會"},{"start":213.362,"end":233.502,"text":"所以彈性標準都在署長這邊,你們決定?就是依照實際的所以他如果報100萬就可以有100萬,報200萬會有200萬,也沒有啊?你的最高上限是多少?目前是沒有所謂最高上限的,但是所以你非常的彈性齁,這個我聽懂了,就是完全是市、地方"},{"start":235.089,"end":235.369,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":251.364,"end":277.747,"text":"這個垃圾清運像以高雄來講他4天放假結果那個場面很驚人就是清潔隊員喊說快滿了快滿了就是而且大排長龍所以這個有關於風災這個垃圾的清運標準你們現在有一個什麼樣的標準嗎還是都是授權地方政府如果連放4天4天都不收還是說他可以試這個風雨的大小比如說每天可能還是公告有一半因為就我所知像新北"},{"start":278.147,"end":302.455,"text":"他就有去公告我們今天就是一趟這樣子那這一趟大家可以把垃圾拿來所以就不會有這個垃圾山所以大家不會亂丟那目前有一個同意的做法嗎沒有因為這個垃圾處理是地方的事務那你們要督導嗎因為這一次可以看得出來你看四天都不收的情況民眾也困擾那那個清潔人員瞬間也是爆量其實也是蠻困擾的我建議這個部分這個"},{"start":306.236,"end":306.657,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":336.617,"end":362.674,"text":"我覺得如果跟其他單位比起來其實都還是是比較差的啦比如說像消防員來講消防員如果是死亡的慰問金他們一發就是10萬元但是對清潔隊員來講他的工作過程如果是死亡的話就只有2萬元就是在福利上面其實還是有差異另外一個呢就是我們現在還是一國多製我們現在雖然定有清潔人員清潔獎金的知己的要點"},{"start":363.715,"end":389.939,"text":"但是我想請問環境部現在有多少縣市真的有發清潔獎金發到一萬元都沒有那個比較財政比較好的例如像臺北市或者是高雄直轄市會發到一萬元那因為這個部分是我們訂定天花板底下就是一個縣市的財政狀況去處理那最低的有多少的"},{"start":392.165,"end":414.147,"text":"我印象裡面最低的應該是6000塊左右6000塊左右所以這個是我看到我們其實蠻多辛苦的第一線的清潔人員他們也在講喔他們現在有點同工不同籌在不同的縣市去享受到的福利是不一樣的因為就像剛剛指望講的都授權地方政府那地方政府有財力好的有財力差的"},{"start":415.248,"end":431.301,"text":"所以就變成這個福利上面其實有落差這個部長你現在上任之後我不曉得之前有沒有關注到這個部分但是地方清潔人員坦白講他們在第一線盡心盡力幫環境部非常大的忙那這個部分我們中央可以幫他們做什麼"},{"start":432.729,"end":459.197,"text":"我們會來研究一下好不好就是說因為這個真的是屬於地方的事務這個我之前也問過我們的同仁怎麼樣來幫忙那這個給我們一點點時間好不好那我希望這個部長回去可以再研議一下就是說今天由原來的屬升格為現在其實是部其實應該要他的意義在那從一次的風戰我們都看到這些地方清潔人員真的是加倍辛苦"},{"start":459.656,"end":481.875,"text":"但是他可能就是地方縣市政府財力不一可以拿到的這個回饋或福利其實是不一樣的另外一個你們基本的執行植物死亡技術基金你們在114年還短處了308.3億那這個部分要怎麼處理這個是最基本的應該要編組的結果是短處的情況"},{"start":482.991,"end":510.678,"text":"跟委員報告齁我們目前大概還1億9千萬的基金啦阿那個依基金的姿勢來支那當然我們希望發生植栽的機率能夠繼續降雖然300多萬的這一個不足308億喔不是萬沒有沒有300多萬喔300多萬是不是喔抱歉那這筆基金如果依照目前的支出大概還可以用50年這個請委員放心"},{"start":511.505,"end":531.046,"text":"所以不會有不夠的情況嗎好因為這個時間的關係我覺得我們要把很多政策落實基層的照顧其實是非常重要那我希望對於這些基層的這些清潔人員他們現在福利保障不足的部分部長我希望你可以"},{"start":531.502,"end":532.363,"text":"好,我們研究一下,謝謝"},{"start":564.672,"end":564.835,"text":"謝謝王委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:18:25 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10:27:50","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155109","gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時18分）謝謝召委，召委辛苦了，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員早。"],["王委員育敏：部長早，首先本席要肯定你，你上任之後到全國各地實地看了這些垃圾的情況，包括當時本席擔任召委也安排到嘉義縣的大林，你也都親自出席查看，但是本席也是要講，其實垃圾處理的挑戰非常大，當然不是只有部長的責任，但是因為你今天來到了這個角色上面，你就握有權力、握有資源，所以要很認真的處理。","我看了你今天的報告，在裸露的垃圾場裡面，你們其實已經把84萬噸降到了72萬噸，但是一個風災過後，你們有沒有統計過，這一次山陀兒颱風所帶進來的、製造的垃圾量，它破壞環境所產生的垃圾量大概有多少？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為風災結束到現在還不到一個禮拜，我們通常是一個禮拜統計一次，現在資料還沒有進來。"],["王委員育敏：所以你們還沒有掌握到？"],["彭部長啓明：對，還沒有掌握到。"],["王委員育敏：但是以這次它對於南部的影響，光是我們看到的公共區域，垃圾量應該是增加不少，好不容易下降的這一些垃圾，可能瞬間又暴增上來了。產生這麼多的垃圾，其中涉及到一個問題，就是地方政府平常可能沒有編列這樣的預算，工作量突然暴增，這是清潔人員的工作量。風災、水災過後，關於這些垃圾清運的補助，我看到你在報告裡面有一頁特別提到，各縣市垃圾清運恢復正常，各縣市經費需求部分，屏東有164萬，高雄市需要加班費，基隆、臺東還在盤點，會視各縣市需求予以協助，請問這是一個常態性的機制，還是這次颱風才有？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這是常態性的，遇到災害時，地方有他們的準備金來應變，如果不夠的話，他們會來跟我們申請。"],["王委員育敏：上次凱米颱風的時候，有補助嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，金額是不是請署長來報告？"],["王委員育敏：署長跟大家講一下，你們補助的標準是什麼，還有經費的來源是來自於哪裡？"],["顏署長旭明：我們移緩濟急，還有我們的準備金都有，會預先撥到地方政府，像113年我們先撥了四千零五十幾萬到地方政府，後續如果不夠的話，地方準備金用完之後，可以依實際的支出狀況來跟我們申請。"],["王委員育敏：你都會補到足嗎？"],["顏署長旭明：有一個分配的比例。原則上，我們儘量來做。"],["王委員育敏：會不會比較晚申請的就沒有？"],["顏署長旭明：不會。"],["王委員育敏：六都會比較多，其他縣市比較少？"],["顏署長旭明：不會。"],["彭部長啓明：不會、不會。"],["王委員育敏：你們事後把標準給本席，就是……"],["顏署長旭明：那個標準就是依照實際受害跟實際……"],["王委員育敏：所以很彈性，對不對？"],["顏署長旭明：對，但是一定要核實，因為後面有會計、審計的制度會去看。"],["王委員育敏：所以彈性、標準都在署長這邊決定？"],["顏署長旭明：就是依照實際的需要……"],["王委員育敏：他如果報100萬就可以有100萬，報200萬會有200萬，也沒有啊！你的最高上限是多少？"],["顏署長旭明：目前沒有所謂最高上限，但是……"],["王委員育敏：所以非常的彈性，我聽懂了，就是完全視地方……"],["顏署長旭明：要依實際的……"],["王委員育敏：我知道，但是你說多的也沒有，你沒有上限，也不知道你的補助標準是什麼。我覺得這個部分是有必要的，但是看起來你們沒有統一的標準，這個就是我接下來要講的。現在颱風的垃圾清運，以高雄來講，放假4天，結果場面很驚人，清潔隊員喊快滿了、快滿了，而且大排長龍。有關風災的垃圾清運，你們現在有什麼樣的標準嗎？還是都是授權地方政府？如果連放4天，4天都不收，還是可以視風雨的大小，譬如每天可能還是公告有一班。就我所知，像新北就有公告當天就是一趟，這一趟大家可以把垃圾拿來，所以就不會有垃圾山，大家不會亂丟。目前有統一的作法嗎？沒有？"],["彭部長啓明：因為垃圾處理是地方的事務。"],["王委員育敏：你們要督導嘛，因為從這次可以看得出來，4天都不收的情況，讓民眾困擾，瞬間爆量，其實清潔人員也是蠻困擾的。我建議這個部分，事實上，你們現在已經升格環境部了，不是什麼都是地方政府處理。因為這次風災看到這樣的亂象，可以思考做得比較好的縣市是怎麼做，兼顧到清潔人員的安全，又兼顧到民眾的需求，然後有一個好的公告，就不會像這樣，大家擠成一團，我建議可以有這樣的作法。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，這個我們來研議一下，好不好？"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。另外，坦白講，這一次最辛苦的就是地方的清潔人員，但是現在地方清潔人員的福利，如果跟其他單位比起來，其實都還是比較差。譬如消防員的死亡慰問金，一發就是10萬元，但是對清潔隊員來講，他在工作過程如果死亡就只有2萬元，在福利上還是有差異。另外一個就是現在還是一國多制，雖然訂有清潔人員清潔獎金支給要點，但是請問環境部，現在有多少縣市真的有把清潔獎金發到1萬元？有沒有？"],["顏署長旭明：財政比較好的，例如臺北市或者高雄等直轄市，會發到1萬元。因為這個部分我們是訂定天花板，底下就是依各縣市的財政狀況去處理。"],["王委員育敏：最低的有多少的？還是有沒有發的？"],["顏署長旭明：我印象裡面最低的應該是6,000塊左右。"],["王委員育敏：蠻多第一線辛苦的清潔人員在講，他們現在有點同工不同酬，在不同的縣市享受到的福利是不一樣的。就像剛剛署長講的，都是授權地方政府，但地方政府有財力好的、有財力差的，所以就變成這個福利有落差。部長上任之後，我不曉得你有沒有關注到這個部分？坦白講，地方清潔人員在第一線盡心盡力幫環境部非常大的忙，這個部分中央可以幫他們做什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：我們會來研究一下，好不好？因為這個真的是屬於地方的事務，我之前也問過我們的同仁怎麼樣來幫忙，這個給我們一點點時間，好不好？"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望部長回去可以再研議一下。由原來的署現在升格為部，應該要有它的意義在。從這一次的風災，我們看到這些地方清潔人員真的是加倍辛苦，但是可能地方縣市政府財力不一，以致可以拿到的回饋或福利是不一樣的。另外，你們基本的執行職務死亡濟助基金在114年還短絀了308.3億，這個部分要怎麼處理？這個是最基本的，應該要編足的，結果是短絀的情況。"],["顏署長旭明：我們目前大概還有1億9,000萬的基金，依基金的孳息來支出。當然我們希望發生職災的機率能夠繼續降，雖然有三百多萬的不足……"],["王委員育敏：308「億」，不是「萬」！"],["顏署長旭明：沒有、沒有，是三百多萬。"],["王委員育敏：三百多萬，是不是？"],["顏署長旭明：是。"],["王委員育敏：抱歉！是我看錯資料。"],["顏署長旭明：這筆基金如果依照目前的支出，大概還可以用50年，請委員放心。"],["王委員育敏：所以不會有不夠的情況？"],["顏署長旭明：不會。"],["王委員育敏：我們要把很多政策落實，對基層的照顧非常重要。對於這些基層清潔人員現在福利保障不足的部分，我希望部長可以去正視這個問題，而且他們提的訴求已經非常久了，就是這種一國多制的情況。我希望未來環境部能爭取到更多預算，由中央來弭平縣市之間的落差。所有的清潔人員在第一線做這麼辛苦的工作，有關他們的福利保障待遇，中央應該要出來幫他們背書、幫他們忙，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們來研究一下，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝王委員、部長。","接續請廖偉翔委員質詢。","我在這裡宣告，在蘇清泉委員發言之後，休息10分鐘。另外，中午不休息，詢答完畢再休息。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:09:36","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:23:45+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155108","委員名稱":"張啓楷","duration":576,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:14:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b49377e2d247eff4637d0e1b3eec0bde5d39772a8a89b87e03825c646c8d84b4e4215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.93784375,"end":3.3890937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.032843750000001,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.496593750000002,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.08721875,"end":18.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.25596875,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.69471875,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.762218750000002,"end":18.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.77909375,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.27596875,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.59221875,"end":26.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.60909375,"end":27.21659375},{"spea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他們自己我等一下問經濟部經濟部的國運事業很多嘛等一下問台水我先講一下齁台水今年4月1號"},{"start":163.089,"end":173.398,"text":"長電價以後一年增加多少?5.62億那你現在又漲喔這是台水也是有影響的喔台水會增加3.56億那我現在今天要執行非常清楚"},{"start":175.122,"end":195.618,"text":"臺電漲了臺鐵,臺鐵不要轉嫁到人民身上來。第二個,一樣,臺水增加了3.56億,也不能漲到人民身上來。所以,我先問你啦,因為交通部嘛,交通部你不就去講,我等一下問經濟部,臺水,還有經濟部主管的國營事業,絕對不能轉嫁到人民身上去,好不好?"},{"start":196.218,"end":222.165,"text":"委員第一個我一定會去轉達給交通部第二個事情我也跟您說明一下這個還是要看台鐵的輸贏人次他如果輸贏人次是兩億的話攤下來是一個人才一塊錢所以還是要看實際的狀況那我還是會去表達從人民的角度去看這個事情人民的合估你台電漲了價你還講說沒有衝擊行政院長跟你們都講說沒有衝擊到民生沒有衝擊到物價對不對這有沒有衝擊到"},{"start":224.437,"end":239.793,"text":"我去搭台鐵我就影響到啦怎麼沒有勒這物價不會跟著漲嗎這兩個層面都是衝擊喔我掏錢我本來搭台鐵的因為你漲了電價之後有要多付錢嘛對不對所以這常識嘛對沒問題吧這常識嘛這邏輯沒問題嘛然後第二個因為國營世界漲了價之後"},{"start":245.56,"end":270.353,"text":"有沒有帶動物價?怎麼樣影響到民生呢?這個其實還是要看影響的多寡啦那我們自己在看的話在工業部門是2%左右那當然有些多耗電的會到10%那其實他的影響並沒有那麼大啦那尤其他這次有限定範圍嘛所以實際上我想我會去溝通然後看看他到底影響有多大那有必要我會我們會來做一個整合性的溝通部門"},{"start":272.434,"end":289.204,"text":"這個責任重大,人民會不會繼續太苦下去,要看你了所以你現在一方面是交通部那邊你要溝通所有國營事業,財政部其實都哪有啦那等一下經濟部這邊,次長在,我在這邊次長,海水因為這次的調漲會增加3.56億"},{"start":291.616,"end":310.823,"text":"那臺水應該不會轉嫁,因為這樣漲價吧?巴韋目前臺水沒有漲價的規劃沒有齁?是好,那我們今天能不能做一個簡單的一個結論這次臺電漲了電價,所有的國營、事業不能夠因為漲了、增加了這個電價轉嫁到人民的身上兩位都要說承諾好不好?"},{"start":313.337,"end":336.298,"text":"兩個都要承諾喔不要過幾天這個馬上見真章喔22號臺電臺鐵如果開了會長的話人民就找你們算帳了立法院找你們算帳阿第二個臺水剛剛次長講的臺水沒去嘛對不對所有經濟部的所有的國營事業若因為臺電漲了電價有增加這個我們到追究責任OK好我們先做這個簡單結論來我來看另外一個來"},{"start":339.05,"end":353.43,"text":"次長你先請回我問一下次那個諸位國發基金啊以前投資都是投資股權結果最近變成有些專案投資啊連影片都投資了我們看一下下一張在111年的時候啊"},{"start":354.96,"end":374.756,"text":"那時候投資啊專案投資啊電影或者是影片只有兩部投資了3500萬結果到112年的時候一下子跳到多少34部發了國發基金4億7495萬文化是一個國家的根本你要投資文化我沒有意見文化讓一個國家偉大"},{"start":376.854,"end":396.802,"text":"可是不能夠偏頗國發基金這個投資應該是以這個公司為主對不對盡量少是影片我們看下一張最近有一個引起很大爭議的這是不是又是超市的翻版以小博大之前前8年我們在抗議什麼總資額200萬的小吃店可以取得16.5億的快篩50萬的超市獲得農業部10億的大訂單今天又有一個很離譜的有一家公司啊"},{"start":406.015,"end":411.739,"text":"他的持收的資本額不到86萬結果從我們國家搬了1.13億的投資包括國發基金都搬出來了主委 這個要好不好檢討一下"},{"start":420.531,"end":447.537,"text":"這個我們找文化部檢討過了一次跟您報告一下就是說他過去是因為投資效益不好的時候他投了很多在專案上面然後呢創造了比較多的投資解脫你講的是通案我在講的是這家公司一個持收資本額不到86萬的政府從文化部跟國發基金可以搬1.13億去投資嗎我給你看下一張來這個投資的什麼去拍這個叫做凌日攻擊我們比一下好不好"},{"start":448.857,"end":471.644,"text":"最近右邊這個臺灣三部曲導演過有名吧魏德勝左邊這個導演雖然也是有名可是跟魏德勝比起來羅景仁羅先生魏德勝以前有海角7號賽德克巴萊你看他這個本來金額多少總金會是45億結果國發基金要請國發基金去投資"},{"start":476.343,"end":499.564,"text":"本來還不願意的後來只投資了三千萬這個一般人的民眾會怎麼看這個事情這兩個當然是投資魏德勝這一邊阿台灣三部曲阿都是以台灣為題材阿這個是嘗試的問題吧一定是右邊嘛為什麼左邊反而更多主委你看凌日攻擊這個被稱為綠色的這個不要說一定是什麼"},{"start":501.195,"end":518.358,"text":"什麼對民進黨是都好的可是我要問喔兩個對比之下投資台灣的體裁為什麼一個0日攻擊國發基金那些投資4170萬高達16.09%這是到目前為止喔國發基金所有的投資裡面一個片子最多的"},{"start":519.216,"end":534.654,"text":"這人民不會有意見嗎?好,謝謝委員這個我會找文化部來瞭解主委,我問你一個更直接的,我問一個最後的問題主委,馬上馬上主委,我問一個最後的問題主委,這個影片講的是兩岸戰爭我問你,站在國家發展的角度我問在國家發展的角度"},{"start":535.851,"end":544.055,"text":"如果外資要來投資,去找了你,你願意、你敢找外資來看這個片子嗎?最後一句話,最後一句話,站在國家發展的角度,你說我是一個國外的資金要進來對不對?"},{"start":551.999,"end":576.762,"text":"我看了這個片子是未來投資還是不投資這個是我們委有文化部執行的文化創意這是文化創意可是對國家發展你外資就進不來阿因為講的是兩岸戰爭阿這個你國發經濟還去投資我在事後跟您報告國發經濟不是打自己嘴巴嗎好那個抱歉喔這個投資有他的那個審核啦你把這個相關資料給我好不好好相關資料請提供"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:14:09 - 10:23:45","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部次長就「我國政府對新創及中小企業扶植政策執行狀況與未來精進措施（含政策、人才、法制、稅制、資金、區域平衡等六大面向）」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155108","gazette":{"lineno":267,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時14分）請主委和次長。"],["主席：請劉主委和何次長。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委、次長，電價調漲以後是不是會變成萬物齊漲？今天最重要的新聞是臺鐵說因為台電漲了臺鐵的電價之後，臺鐵一年會增加2.28億的預算，所以現在漲完之後換臺鐵漲人民了，這變成一個惡性循環，台電漲臺鐵、臺鐵漲人民。我現在請教主委，這對民生會不會是很大的一個衝擊，而且現在是國營事業帶頭漲嗎？主委，這樣人民會不會太苦了，人民要被剝好幾層皮嗎？電價漲了，漲完之後臺鐵先漲，現在其他國營事業也可能要跟著漲，人民要怎麼辦？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我瞭解，我們分兩個事情來看，因為它這次是有範圍的成長，我們評估下來對CPI的影響一年期的期間大概是0.2，臺鐵的部分……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉！我踩個煞車，你這個話已經講好幾次了，今天是最新的進度，我現在問你，臺鐵因為增加了2.28億的經費預算，它準備22日要送到董事會，它要漲臺鐵的票價，第一個衝擊到物價，這樣人民去搭臺鐵不就要多付錢了嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我瞭解，臺鐵的漲價是因為29年沒有漲，這只是其中一個因素而已，它因為29年沒有漲，所以……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，看一下新聞，29年當然是一個因素，它現在提出去的是又把新的漲價放進去，主委，你們有沒有去爭取這個不要轉嫁到人民身上，可不可以？如果照你講的，這2.28億能不能不要轉嫁到人民身上？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：經濟部在這裡，它也許……"],["張委員啓楷：這是關於交通部，我等一下會問經濟部，經濟部的國營事業很多，我等一下會問台水，我先講一下，台水今年4月1日漲電價以後，一年增加5.62億，現在又漲，這次台水也是有受影響，台水會增加3.56億。我今天的質詢非常清楚，台電漲了，臺鐵，臺鐵不要轉嫁到人民身上來。第二個，一樣，台水增加了3.56億，也不能漲到人民身上來，我先問主委，交通部你負責去講，我等一下會問經濟部台水，還有經濟部主管的國營事業，絕對不能轉嫁到人民身上去，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，第一個，我一定會去轉達給交通部。第二個事情我也跟你說明一下，這個還是要看臺鐵的輸運人次，如果輸運人次是2億的話，攤下來是1個人才1塊錢，所以還是要看實際的狀況，我還是會去表達。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，從人民的角度去看這個事情，人民何辜？台電漲了價，你還講沒有衝擊，行政院長跟你們都講沒有衝擊到民生、沒有衝擊到物價，這有沒有衝擊到？我去搭臺鐵就被影響到了，怎麼沒有呢？物價不會跟著漲嗎？兩個層面都是衝擊，我本來掏錢搭臺鐵，因為你漲了電價之後要多付錢，主委，這是常識，沒問題吧？這是常識，這個邏輯沒問題。第二個，因為國營事業漲了價之後，有沒有帶動物價，有沒有影響到民生呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個其實還是要看影響的多寡，我們自己在看的話，在工業部門是2%左右，當然有些多耗電的會到10%，所以其實它的影響並沒有那麼大，尤其它這次有限定範圍，實際上我會去溝通，然後看看它到底影響有多大，有必要的話我們會來做一個整合性的溝通部門。"],["張委員啓楷：主委的責任重大，人民會不會繼續太苦下去要看你囉！所以現在一方面是交通部那邊你要溝通，所有的國營事業，財政部其實也有，經濟部次長在場，我直接請問次長，台水因為這次的調漲會增加3.56億，台水應該不會轉嫁或因為這樣漲價吧？"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，目前台水沒有漲價的規劃。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，好。我們今天能不能做一個簡單的結論，這次台電漲了電價，所有的國營事業不能夠因為漲了、增加的電價，轉嫁到人民的身上，兩位都要做出承諾，好不好？兩個都要承諾，不要過幾天……這個馬上見真章，22日臺鐵如果開了會漲價的話，人民就找你們算帳，立法院也找你們算帳！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個超過我們能承諾的範圍。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，剛剛次長說台水沒有漲，經濟部所有的國營事業若因為台電漲了電價有增加，我們都要追究責任，我們先做這個簡單結論。我們來看另外一個議題，請問主委，國發基金以前的投資都是投資股權，結果最近變成有些專案投資連影片都投資了。我們來看下一張簡報，在111年的時候，那時候專案投資電影或影片只有兩部，投資了3,500萬；結果到112年的時候，一下子跳到多少？34部，花了國發基金4億7,495萬。文化是一個國家的根本，你要投資文化，我沒有意見，文化讓一個國家偉大，可是不能夠偏頗，國發基金這個投資應該是以公司為主，儘量少是影片。","最近有一個引起很大爭議的，這是不是又是超思的翻版，以小博大？前八年我們在抗議什麼？總資額200萬的小吃店，可以取得16.5億的快篩，50萬的超思獲得農業部10億的大訂單。今天又有一個很離譜的消息，有一家公司實收資本額不到86萬，結果從我們國家搬了1.13億的投資，包括國發基金都搬出來了。主委，這個要不要檢討一下？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們找文化部檢討過一次，跟您報告一下，過去是因為投資效益不好的時候，它投了很多在專案上面，然後創造了比較多的投資結果。"],["張委員啓楷：你講的是通案，我在講的是這家公司，一個實收資本額不到86萬的公司，政府從文化部跟國發基金可以搬1.13億去投資嗎？我給你看下一張簡報，這個投資了什麼？去拍這部叫「零日攻擊」，我們比一下好不好？最近右邊這部「臺灣三部曲」，導演魏德聖夠有名吧！左邊這位導演雖然也是有名，羅景壬羅先生，可是跟魏德聖比起來，魏德聖以前有「海角七號」、「賽德克．巴萊」，你看本來這個金額多少？總經費是45億喔！結果要請國發基金去投資，本來還不願意的，後來只投資了3,000萬，一般民眾會怎麼看這個事情？這兩個當然是投資魏德聖這邊啊！臺灣三部曲啊！都是以臺灣為題材啊！這個是常識問題，一定是右邊嘛！為什麼左邊反而更多？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你看「零日攻擊」這個被稱為綠色的，不要說什麼一定是對民進黨多好的，可是我要問喔！兩個對比之下，投資臺灣的題材，為什麼一個「零日攻擊」國發基金投資4,170萬，高達16.09%，這是到目前為止國發基金所有的投資裡面一部片子最多的，這個人民不會有意見嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，這個我會找文化部來瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我問你一個更直接的、問最後一個問題……"],["主席：不好意思，委員時間到了……"],["張委員啓楷：馬上好、馬上好！我問最後一個問題……"],["主席：不是，我們要考慮到公平性，因為人家在等……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，這個影片講的是兩岸戰爭，我問你站在國家發展的角度……"],["主席：好，麻煩時間到了。"],["張委員啓楷：如果有外資要來投資，去找了你，你願意、你敢找外資來看這部片子嗎？"],["主席：張委員，不好意思，時間到了，書面資料補充……"],["張委員啓楷：主席，我馬上就好了。最後一句話、最後一句話！"],["主席：不是啦！大家都在等你！"],["張委員啓楷：主委，站在國家發展的角度，例如我是一個國外的資金要進來，對不對？"],["主席：你不是說一句話嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：我看了這部片子是會來投資，還是不投資？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個是我們委由文化部執行的文化創意產業投資啊！"],["主席：好，謝謝，發言時間到，還有委員在等啊！"],["張委員啓楷：這個是文化創意，可是對國家發展而言，外資就進不來啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：文化是國……"],["張委員啓楷：因為講的是兩岸戰爭啊！結果國發基金還去投資？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們有檢討過，我事後再跟你報告。"],["主席：好，謝謝，發言時間到……"],["張委員啓楷：國發會跟國發基金不是打自己嘴巴嗎？"],["主席：請書面答復，謝謝！"],["張委員啓楷：好，抱歉喔！這個投資有其審核，請你把相關資料給我，好不好？"],["主席：有人在等了。好，相關資料請提供。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，好。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝！主委請回座。","下一位質詢請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員之後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","speakers":["邱志偉","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","陳超明","謝衣鳯","吳春城","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","黃國昌","黃建賓","廖偉翔","羅智強","牛煦庭"],"page_start":237,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家發展委員會主任\n委員、經濟部次長就「我國政府對新創及中小企業扶植政策執行狀況與未來精進措施（含政策、\n人才、法制、稅制、資金、區域平衡等六大面向）」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137901_00006"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:15:51","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:22:01+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155107","委員名稱":"馬文君","duration":951,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:06:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4937e2216eb0a9bcf2bde01320d1e415bd4772a8a89b87e0382f0e74eb070a3a03c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.77346875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.24596875,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5072187500000003,"end":4.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.961593750000002,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.73784375,"end":84.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.27909375,"end":101.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.51721875000001,"end":114.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.88221875,"end":142.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.20284375,"end":166.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.24534375000002,"end":169.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.37596875,"end":169.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.81034375000002,"end":170.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.04659375,"end":191.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.84909375,"end":194.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.83596875,"end":203.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.29159375,"end":196.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.93596875,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.46721875,"end":212.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.11596875,"end":222.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.86096875,"end":242.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.87471875000003,"end":244.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.56221875000003,"end":248.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.47721875000002,"end":250.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.48971875,"end":254.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.60284375,"end":272.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.28846875,"end":269.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.10221875,"end":278.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.04221875,"end":309.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.07534375,"end":319.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.24409375000005,"end":310.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.00221875,"end":320.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.38596875,"end":320.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.50409375000004,"end":323.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.31409375000004,"end":346.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.19034375,"end":331.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.75096875,"end":334.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.15409375,"end":350.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.38971875000004,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.31784375,"end":353.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.72659375,"end":355.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.43096875000003,"end":356.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.44784375,"end":363.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.76784375,"end":363.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.36659375000005,"end":363.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.87284375,"end":382.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.92346875000004,"end":364.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.76471875000004,"end":414.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.77659375,"end":413.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.09284375000004,"end":441.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.77221875000004,"end":443.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.48096875000005,"end":441.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.66659375,"end":478.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.23909375000005,"end":485.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.12846875,"end":504.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.70346875,"end":506.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.15034375000005,"end":506.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.14159375,"end":587.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.2578437500001,"end":520.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.7197187500001,"end":606.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","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這個向部長"},{"start":485.353,"end":498.703,"text":"我們希望它不要發生啊,如果我們自己已經可以幫它做,表示我們自己就可以做,你都已經要發展產業園區,你自己都已經科研出來的東西,如果我們幫人家代工,然後再去高價買回來,這樣這是對不起國人的,我先提出來另外另外"},{"start":507.21,"end":512.734,"text":"美國的關鍵技術如果會給我們通常軍火商不會把他的關鍵技術隨便就給出來如果這麼容易的話F16不會到現在連維保的我們說維修中心我們到現在維保都還沒有部長因為時間的關係我現在要再提出來因為那個是未來可能發生的事情你們也不用笑未來我們希望它不要發生這個因為"},{"start":531.846,"end":548.039,"text":"因為這是我們民脂民膏美國海軍公布新的戰略文件2024年美國作戰海軍領航計畫提出33號計畫它要整合人工智慧無人系統要提升後勤跟人力素質要因應"},{"start":549.08,"end":551.904,"text":"解放軍在印太地區日益擴張的軍事影響力而且他強調必須在2027年之前做好跟大陸爆發衝突的準備這是美國提出來的他的33號計畫"},{"start":564.639,"end":585.095,"text":"這個部分因為他們提醒中共可能要以中共已經要求解放軍在2027年該年之前可能就會做攻打台灣的準備所以他們自己本身也要做好這樣的防衛準備那現在距離2027年不到三年的時間如果以美國海軍的標準我們國軍準備好了嗎?"},{"start":587.977,"end":605.861,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們的目標就是不斷的強化自我防衛的能力然後來共同形成一個嚇阻的力量讓這個2027可能會發生的事情不斷的往後遞延所以我們不斷的強化自我防衛的能力才能夠產生嚇阻的力量我們聽到因為剛剛是美國的"},{"start":608.462,"end":615.445,"text":"他們的報告他們的計劃已經做出很明確的時間點我們不知道什麼時候會發生你說我們用文字去敘述說希望他遞言我們當然希望不要發生而不是遞言可是我們不知道的情況之下你應該要做什麼樣準備美國都已經要求自己要在2027年做這樣的準備那我們準備了什麼我們現在看到美國智庫卡托研究所其實他之前也都提過了"},{"start":636.954,"end":652.285,"text":"到8月份為止他在9月公布的統計研究報告裡面美國對台軍售嚴當尚未交貨的武器裝備累積的金額這個也一而再再而三的提起大概有205.3億美元其中傳統武器有108.7億不對稱作戰的武器有70億彈藥有26.6億美元"},{"start":662.412,"end":685.544,"text":"當這些我們急需迫切需要的我們編了很多的預算然後美國到現在還沒有辦法提供給我們這樣對我們的安全或者對我們的國防或者我們要形成戰力會有什麼樣的影響這些已經都是我們規劃非常久而且認為迫切需要的我們也付了"},{"start":686.044,"end":697.497,"text":"三、四、五、六千多億以上的錢到現在都還沒有拿到。這對我們會有什麼影響?官委員報告我想他這個所計算的一個基礎是不正確的。是不是?請張律師簡單說明一下。這個部分不要在這裡說明。因為"},{"start":701.061,"end":704.862,"text":"這個部分已經不斷地提出來像這些東西我們不要看數字我們看到的是這些東西就還沒有到比如F16V我們已經付了一千六百多億總共特別預算編了兩千五百億而已付了一千六百億我們到現在都還沒有看到首架飛機到這裡本來去年就應該要交了今年第三季也沒來"},{"start":725.29,"end":753.188,"text":"第4季可以交嗎?我們到現在連一架都還沒有看到所以它對或錯我們不要看數據我們要的是我們看到我們的武器裝備到底來了沒有所以它對我們的戰力會有什麼樣的影響這才是我們最擔心的好不好?我們還是希望F16的這個交運可以符合在2026年的年底以前全數交運完畢那首架的飛機我想我們希望在今年第4季能夠看到"},{"start":753.928,"end":757.531,"text":"部長,我們現在大家一直在幫忙推遲或者講你現在都已經出不來現在面對的國際局勢更嚴峻連中東的局勢都已經非常緊張的情況之下美國的武器裝備其實他們要製造會有更多的困難所以俄烏跟疫情都可以影響美方提供給我們的武器裝備沒有理由你在"},{"start":780.046,"end":781.127,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情"},{"start":797.512,"end":821.418,"text":"老實說在我們的機密報告裡面裡面的內容其實比報導的其實都還要少我們有時候不需要因為當國人都非常清楚的想要知道說到底發生什麼事我們到底被騙了什麼未來還會不會被騙這才是應該國防部應有的態度在這裡我想要請教一個問題就好了"},{"start":823.126,"end":847.174,"text":"未來有沒有可能發生更多類似的未報事件我們有沒有去做一個因為雷神跟洛馬這兩大軍火商顯然在很多過去的武器裝備是提供給我們不管是軍購都可以發生這樣的事情我們有很多商購的包括海昆號也買了這樣的武器裝備我們有沒有去做一個"},{"start":848.294,"end":849.655,"text":"美方已經就雷神所有相關的類案來進行集合調查的程序。"},{"start":868.07,"end":875.335,"text":"我們自己不需要嗎?因為我們通常買的都比其他世界各國貴美國都會發生這樣的事情而且他有特別強調這其中可能牽涉到洗錢貪毒還有官商勾結美國調查的是他們國內的那部長有沒有掌握到我們國內的人有沒有問題這是我這裡要提出來的這是第一個第二個還有沒有可能還有類似的未報事件會不會有?"},{"start":897.729,"end":899.09,"text":"部長,那是美方調查的是針對美國的部分我們現在提出來是說我方有沒有這樣子的疑慮"},{"start":918.16,"end":930.809,"text":"你連調查都還沒有調查你應該要先去了解一下整個過程到底有沒有什麼樣的狀況或者在其他的案子上面有沒有這樣的問題不然到時候又被爆出來那可能對我們國防部的傷害會更大他說以時間的關係我們後續可能還有相關的問題再跟國防部做請教"},{"start":941.098,"end":950.057,"text":"好,剛剛我提到的部分也請部長可以統整檢視一下然後再給我們相關的一些解答好不好?謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:06:10 - 10:22:01","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":"155107","gazette":{"lineno":178,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時6分）謝謝主席，麻煩請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。剛剛其實有委員也特別提到，我們現在非常關切的像無人機，或者我們要加入美國供應鏈的這個部分，這個當然也是我們等一下要重點探討的，可是我想國防部跟中科院，其實最重要的目的是針對我們的整體國防安全，還有我們整個國家對於國防設備、裝備或者武器等等，其實最重要的是要利於我們的國防安全，至於產業的發展或者其他的，不管是無人機的產業，或者能不能加入美國的供應鏈等等，它能不能賺錢，或者是不是有利可圖，那個應該是其他部會，比如像經濟部而不是我們應該要深刻去關切的，我想這個輕重緩急或者它的重點，我們應該要畫對，所以在這裡我們要提出一些探討，臺美國防工業研討會議最重要的成果是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：臺美國防供應鏈最重要的成果，我想就是我們跟它表示臺美國防產業的韌性要能夠達成雙贏的發展。"],["馬委員文君：所謂的雙贏發展，就是像我們剛剛聽到的或者我們在報告裡面看到的，主要就是要加速臺灣成為美國國防產業的供應鏈，是這樣嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這個當然是其中一個非常重要的部分，另外當然跟美國那邊有做一些交流，對於如何迅速地籌獲我們所需要的防衛武器，透過多元的管道，特別是一些安援的手段，PDA也好，FMF也好，或者是其他像……"],["馬委員文君：部長，您剛剛有提到迅速籌獲我們需要的武器裝備，因為我們剛剛看到的，大家提出來的、在表面上談到的這些，似乎都不是我們真正迫切需要的，除了剛剛我講到的，成為美國國防產業的供應鏈以外，另外聽說中科院也要變成美商的供應商，有這樣的事情嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：成為美商的供應商？"],["馬委員文君：對，比如說因為現在全世界對於無人機的需求非常的大，也有很多不管是我們國內自己要開發一個基地也好，或者像美國很多的公司之前才過來，奧克拉荷馬州其實是一個農業州吧？無人機的產業在那裡發展得很好嗎？我們現在……"],["顧部長立雄：奧克拉荷馬州的這個部分，我們這邊沒有這樣的訊息存在，至於它跟……"],["馬委員文君：因為它已經跟漢翔還有嘉義縣政府簽了MOU。"],["顧部長立雄：但是就國防部所理解的中科院來講，並沒有這樣的一個計畫存在。"],["馬委員文君：所以我現在要知道的是，中科院會變成美商的供應商嗎？比如我們跟美國要採購，像院長之前還在戰規司的時候，你還特別提到我們的劍翔做得非常好，劍翔後來把它拆成可以監偵，然後攻擊的部分其實是拆開的，這個部分是不是還是一樣做得非常好？"],["李院長世強：報告委員，是。"],["馬委員文君：所以如果由我們自己生產有什麼樣的問題？有沒有問題？"],["李院長世強：報告，沒有，只是需求的規模要看國軍能夠擴大到多大。"],["馬委員文君：我們剛剛提到了，我們所科研的，投入這麼多的經費，如果我們國內有這樣的量能可以製造無人機，當然要先供應國防部的需求，對不對？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以這個部分，我們國內自己可不可以做？"],["李院長世強：報告，可以，當然我還是要再強調一遍，就是各軍種的需求能夠把量擴大到多大。"],["馬委員文君：我們過去在做東西的時候，比如你在做潛艦，你在做我們的勇鷹號，你在做其他的武器裝備的時候，你有考慮到國防部應該要提供到多少的量能，他們才可以維持嗎？這是我們要考量的嗎？你今天投入這麼多的科研經費，你今天要做這樣的產業園區，今天國防部編了好幾百億想要成立國家隊，要採購他們的這些產品，主要的目的，其實我們也是希望產業可以同時發展，對不對？"],["李院長世強：是，委員，我要強調的就是國防供應鏈韌性的問題，因為今天不是只有中科院在生產，有很多我們的供應鏈、下游的廠商在協力我們一起生產……"],["馬委員文君：你們有把它停掉嗎？"],["李院長世強：不能停掉，停掉人家……"],["馬委員文君：有停掉嗎？沒有停掉？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["馬委員文君：你們沒有把原來配合的廠商停掉，叫它先不要做，有這樣子的事情嗎？"],["李院長世強：如果沒有這個單子的話……"],["馬委員文君：有這樣的事情嗎？回答這個部分就好，有嗎？"],["李院長世強：如果沒有……"],["馬委員文君：原來跟你配合，比如說銳鳶或者其他，我們有紅雀，我們之前有騰雲還有其他的武器裝備，這樣子的廠商你們有喊停嗎？"],["李院長世強：報告，銳鳶二的下游廠商我們的確有通知它先暫停。"],["馬委員文君：為什麼？"],["李院長世強：因為明年沒有銳鳶二的量產預算。"],["馬委員文君：未來會做嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想應該會，現在已經通過……"],["馬委員文君：它已經通過了嘛。"],["李院長世強：有通過了。"],["顧部長立雄：有通過了，所以我們……"],["馬委員文君：那為什麼要停？在軍規商用的部分，你們編了很多錢，然後現在又急著要參加美國的供應鏈，可是我們自己已經研發出來，而且已經通過測評的部分，我們卻把它停止不用，我不知道是什麼原因，這個部分因為今天時間的關係，我們可能沒有辦法讓大家在這裡回答。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告兩點，第一點，銳鳶二型通過作戰測評確實改善，我們也會納入建案，這個是第一個，沒有問題。第二個，所有相關的，包括您剛剛提到的這些無人機產業，或者其他相關的這些產業，我們主要就是要建立一個自主生產的能力，這個自主生產力不能單靠中科院，還要靠中科院相關的這些下游廠商，這些廠商大家一起合作，能夠進行一個自主的生產能量，這個才是很重要的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們都同意，因為之前我就說過，我們花了超過百億的經費，做了騰雲、做了銳鳶、做了紅雀，甚至尖兵，當然花了錢以後，中途把它停掉了，還有很多其他的，包括現在的劍翔，我們都花了很多的錢，你到底要不要繼續做？這些才是我們應該要關切的，如果它做得夠好，我們想不出來為什麼我們要全部都買美方的，或者我們要……"],["顧部長立雄：我們沒有停掉。"],["馬委員文君：或者我們要去用，我剛剛唸了很多個，既然部長在這裡也同意，未來我們希望看到到底要怎麼樣去進行，現在我們比較擔心的就是我們成為美國國防的供應鏈，我先提出來我們可能會擔心的部分，我們會跟美國採購的部分，我們希望臺灣不要變成代工，把它做出來以後再回到美國，美國再賣給臺灣，這樣我們真的也是一個「盤子」，這個是我們所料想到可能會發生的事情，我們在這裡先提出來。"],["顧部長立雄：不是賣給我們，是打入國際吧！委員這樣的講法好像是有一點講得……我們是希望能夠打入國際。"],["馬委員文君：沒有，部長，我們希望它不要發生啦！如果我們已經可以幫他做，表示我們自己就可以做，你都已經要發展產業園區，你自己都已經科研出來的東西，如果我們幫人家代工，然後再以高價買回來，這樣是對不起國人的，我先提出來。"],["顧部長立雄：我們應該是引進一些美國的關鍵技術來共同研發、生產。"],["馬委員文君：美國的關鍵技術如果會給我們，通常軍火商不會把他的關鍵技術隨便就給出來，如果這麼容易的話，F-16不會到現在連我們說的維修中心也就是維保都還沒有。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告……"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為時間的關係，我現在要再提出來，因為那個是未來可能發生的事情，你們也不用笑，我們希望未來它不要發生，因為這是我們的民脂民膏。美國海軍公布新的戰略文件，在「2024年美國作戰海軍領航計畫」中提出33號計畫，要整合人工智慧和無人系統，要提升後勤跟人力素質，要因應解放軍在印太地區日益擴張的軍事影響力，而且強調必須在2027年之前做好跟大陸爆發衝突的準備，美國提出來的33號計畫有這一個部分，他們提醒因為中共已經要求解放軍在2027年之前做好攻打臺灣的準備，所以他們自己本身也要做好這樣的防衛準備，那現在距離2027年不到3年的時間，如果以美國海軍的標準，我們國軍準備好了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們的目標就是不斷地強化自我防衛的能力，然後來共同形成一個嚇阻的力量，讓這個在2027年可能會發生的事情不斷地往後遞延，所以我們不斷地強化自我防衛的能力，才能夠產生嚇阻的力量，這是我們現在的……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我剛剛講的是美國他們的報告，他們的計畫已經做出很明確的時間點，我們不知道什麼時候會發生，你說我們用文字去敘述說希望它遞延，我們當然希望不要發生，而不是遞延，可是在我們不知道的情況之下你應該要做什麼樣的準備？美國都已經要求自己要在2027年做這樣的準備，那我們準備了什麼？我們現在看到美國智庫卡托研究所其實在之前也都提過了，它在9月公布的統計研究報告裡面指出到8月分為止美國對臺軍售延宕尚未交貨的武器裝備累積的金額，這個也一而再、再而三地提起，大概有205.3億美元，其中傳統武器有108.7億，不對稱作戰的武器有70億，彈藥有26.6億美元。對這些我們急需、有迫切需要的，我們編了很多的預算，然後美國到現在還沒有辦法提供給我們，這樣對我們的安全、我們的國防或者我們要形成戰力會有什麼樣的影響？這些都是我們已經規劃非常久而且認為有迫切需要的，我們付的錢也超過六千多億以上，可是到現在都還沒有拿到，這對我們會有什麼樣的影響？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想這個所計算的基礎是不正確的，是不是請戰規司簡單說明一下？"],["馬委員文君：這個部分不要在這裡說明，因為這個部分已經不斷地提出來……"],["顧部長立雄：這個計算基礎是不正確的，我們已經一再地說明。"],["馬委員文君：像這些東西我們不要看數字，我們看到的是這些東西就還沒有到，比如F-16V，我們已經付了一千六百多億，特別預算總共編了2,500億而已，付了一千六百多億，我們到現在都還沒有看到首架飛機到這裡，本來在去年就應該要交了，今年第三季也沒來，第四季可以交嗎？我們到現在連一架都還沒有看到，所以它對或錯我們不要看數據，我們要看的是我們的武器裝備到底來了沒有，所以它對我們的戰力會有什麼樣的影響，這才是我們最擔心的，好不好？部長，就這一個部分你們應該要去瞭解。"],["顧部長立雄：我們還是希望F-16的交運可以符合在2026年年底以前全數交運完畢，那我們希望在今年第四季能夠看到首架的飛機。"],["馬委員文君：部長，現在大家一直在幫忙推遲或者講……你現在都已經出不來，而且面對的國際局勢更嚴峻，連中東的局勢都已經非常緊張的情況之下，美國的武器裝備其實他們要製造會有更多的困難，所以俄烏戰爭跟疫情都可以影響美方提供給我們的武器裝備，沒有理由你在整個國際局勢更困難的情況之下，我們還可以樂觀的覺得他們可以準時、可以如期如質地交給我們，這是我們要特別提出來的。","接下來跟主席借一點點時間，老實說，我想剛剛在我們的機密報告裡面的內容其實都比報導的還要少，我們有時候不需要，因為當國人都想要非常清楚地知道到底發生什麼事，我們到底被騙了什麼，未來還會不會被騙，這才是國防部應有的態度，在這裡我想要請教一個問題就好了，未來有沒有可能發生更多類似的未爆事件？因為雷神跟洛馬這兩大軍火商顯然在過去提供給我們很多的武器裝備，連軍購都可以發生這樣的事情，我們有很多商購的，包括海鯤號，也買了這樣的武器裝備，我們有沒有去做一個通盤的檢視？在經過這個事件以後，我們應該比這個報導之前更早知道，我們有沒有要去掌握？有沒有要去檢視所有的武器採購的部分？部長，有沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：我想美方已經就雷神所有相關的類案來進行稽核調查的程序。"],["馬委員文君：那我們自己不需要嗎？因為我們通常買的都比其他世界各國貴，美國都會發生這樣的事情，而且他有特別強調這其中可能牽涉到洗錢、貪瀆還有官商勾結，美國調查的是他們國內的，那部長有沒有掌握到我們國內的人有沒有問題，這是我在這裡也要提出來的，這是第一個。第二個，有沒有可能還有類似的未爆事件？會不會有？部長有沒有信心可以在這裡回答？"],["顧部長立雄：美國有告訴我們並沒有我方的人員涉入這一點，我想剛剛已經在機密案裡面做一些說明，美方並沒有說明有任何我方的人員涉入。"],["馬委員文君：部長，美方調查的是針對美國的部分，我們現在提出來的是我方有沒有這樣的疑慮，你連調查都還沒有調查，你應該要先去了解一下整個過程到底有沒有什麼樣的狀況，或者在其他的案子上面有沒有這樣的問題，不然到時候又被爆出來，那可能對我們國防部的傷害會更大。因為時間的關係，我們後續可能還有相關的問題再跟國防部做請教。"],["顧部長立雄：我們會儘量來進行查核。"],["馬委員文君：剛剛我提到的部分，也請部長可以統整檢視一下，然後再給我們相關的一些解答，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，部長請回。","接下來我們請洪申翰委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:09:25","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:18:19+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155106","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","duration":565,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:08:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b49301eae050e513a523825024566f032902772a8a89b87e0382f642cddcd8afeba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.78034375,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.47159375,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.340343750000002,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.669093750000002,"end":20.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.68596875,"end":20.770343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.95596875,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.03846875,"end":47.719718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.44971875,"end":75.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.91784375,"end":90.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.97659375,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.78909375,"end":93.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.90659375,"end":96.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.56034375,"end":102.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.81659375000001,"end":134.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.31846875000001,"end":105.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.36034375,"end":134.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.96346875,"end":135.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.16596875000002,"end":135.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.31784375,"end":135.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.67221875,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.97596875000002,"end":160.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.29284375,"end":169.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.60784375,"end":173.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.72971875000002,"end":172.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.28659375,"end":191.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.12346875,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.03471875000002,"end":205.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.85534375,"end":206.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.96909375,"end":209.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.14596875,"end":210.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.95596875,"end":210.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.42846875,"end":211.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.01909375000002,"end":214.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.70659375000002,"end":224.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.28721875000002,"end":231.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.65721875000003,"end":237.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.92221875,"end":250.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.99596875,"end":251.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.19846875000002,"end":257.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.64471875000004,"end":270.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.70596875,"end":278.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.21096875,"end":280.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.48909375,"end":291.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.75909375000003,"end":283.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.69971875000005,"end":283.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.96846875,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.03909375,"end":311.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.68784375,"end":306.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.78846875,"end":310.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.29034375000003,"end":327.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.30721875,"end":311.96534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們希望因為我並不是收一筆錢給給國庫來做使用給環境部來做使用啦我希望都可以用我打個比方像我們進口水泥嘛這一年來為臺灣帶來300萬噸的這個碳排這個部分他要收碳費嗎目前是不用但是跟委員報告因為我們會開始來研議臺版的CBAN就是類似歐盟的碳邊境調整機制因為歐盟的專家歡迎我們所以這個就是我要講的"},{"start":311.283,"end":311.403,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":328.234,"end":328.254,"text":"好﹖"},{"start":355.322,"end":372.935,"text":"我再問一下我們現在徵收碳費到底是為了淨零碳排還是我們不會搶錢的一個為了淨零碳排我希望收得越低越好因為這很多錢到底怎麼用到時候收的錢怎麼用目前氣候變遷因應法裡面有訂出一些規則我舉例例如說氣候變遷的調適天災的調適這個費用"},{"start":377.819,"end":398.119,"text":"天災怎麼調適?你是調適什麼東西?例如說假設苗栗越來越熱,然後我們很多現在的農產品可能就沒有辦法在那個地方生殖了。我們要來輔導農民做一些別的事情。所以它的擴及的方面是很廣的?很廣很廣。那什麼時候這個東西會出來?我們目前碳費最快收到是後年。"},{"start":399.7,"end":410.685,"text":"2026年年中5月才會收到第一筆錢所以我們大概呢整個碳費制度上路之後就我們的費率溫室氣體管理基金應該就會來討論這個議題但是我們會依據法令來解決來處理謝謝部長那另外我再問一下"},{"start":416.108,"end":440.405,"text":"我不得不稱讚您一下就是說今天來做垃圾餐的專案報告昨天就發新聞了那可見部長真的很重視這一塊那也是真的想好好的處理這部分那我看到您從上任到現在我們山頭有慢慢減少了好像是這最近減少的市場嘛四桌山那當然這個部分我們也希望說"},{"start":442.008,"end":454.22,"text":"我們持續一下,但是您說多久要把我們現在的49場的垃圾山把它降下來?包圍三年,就是到2026年的6月"},{"start":459.212,"end":477.888,"text":"因為我端午節做了宣誓啦所以也就是剩下3年你要大概一年要一年至少要幾週一年委員不能這樣算因為現在還在很多的在發包今年現在這幾個月比較慢不能用這種節慮來看我也謝謝你啦就苗栗的您也有同意補助了大概"},{"start":479.089,"end":479.109,"text":"邱鎮軍"},{"start":494.58,"end":509.095,"text":"但是目前我們資源循環署因為基金規模太小它每一案最高上限只有2500萬所以這個部分在執行上來絕對是有困難的沒有辦法推動部長可不可以答應我們這個部分給我們專案的協助"},{"start":511.802,"end":525.69,"text":"委員這個我們整體評估好不好我剛剛的簡報裡面有兩頁是我是希望推動台灣有一個全循環的這種所謂的支援循環園區阿如果這個可以搭配的好的話我覺得可以來考慮支援循環就是我們等於是一個大規模的"},{"start":527.351,"end":541.869,"text":"對對對對我因為我認為不是每一件事情都是廢棄物應該都有他的存在的一個價值循環的價值當然當然你當然你如果把垃圾分類做得更好當然這個部分絕對對垃圾減量是有幫助的對那如果說有這樣的場地我們也希望說"},{"start":542.85,"end":542.87,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:08:54 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10:18:19","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155106","gazette":{"lineno":369,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時9分）主席好，我們有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：邱委員早。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長早。我那天看了一下說今天碳費要拍板定案，我們今天要開審議會嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：您現在覺得是鬆了一口氣還是覺得壓力更大？"],["彭部長啓明：其實我們都準備好了，請委員可以放心，因為上次委員也質詢我說初期不要太高，我也非常贊同，所以先低後高，要穩健上路，這是最重要的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為昨天工總有發出建言啦，當然他們說碳費每公噸韓國的數字是200元，優惠費率大概6元，跟我們講的優惠費率，我們的目前是……你上次跟我講100嘛，好像差蠻多。我今天當然也有看到我們的A方案，每噸大概是30至35元，這個部分有可能執行嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個他們正在開會，所以我不知道，我當然是希望……因為有一點差距，就會有一點減碳的誘因，目前我看到他們上一次會議的結論，大概就是這個數字的附近，但是我必須說……"],["邱委員鎮軍：原則上就是以不超過100元為目標嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：就是所謂的優惠費率啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然這是初期啦，那未來怎麼辦？我看你們目標好像要調到1,200元？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是未來，因為其實……"],["邱委員鎮軍：未來是多久以後？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個是2030，但是我必須說碳費這種制度，在臺灣推動起來就像是繳稅一樣，對很多企業來說，會覺得這是一個負擔，我們也一直在溝通，看要如何轉型，所以我們未來會推動總量管制的碳交易，因為從歐盟的經驗或很多國家經驗來看，碳交易才可以創造市場，這是我們未來會努力的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到今年4月份調了電費，央行也說了，產業用電要漲12.7%，產業生產成本會提高，這可能轉嫁到消費者身上，為了穩定物價，所以當時CPI上升0.27%，這個月產業用電又要再調整12.5%，全年CPI間接影響大概0.15%，您覺得這個狀況會不會一直持續下去？台電會不會一直持續下去？"],["彭部長啓明：我相信國際電價其實會隨著政經、地緣政治的關係變動，如果戰爭能夠結束，當然就會有一點波動，但是我必須跟委員報告，目前電價上漲對CPI的衝擊，相比碳費連它的十分之一都不到，所以我們其實能夠……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們在課徵這個都有把它考量進去嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們都有考慮CPI或GDP的影響。也跟委員報告，其實我到歐盟去也問過他們：你們CPI是多少？他們說他們沒有在算這個的，因為碳費跟電價是兩件事。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但它一定是相關聯的啊！怎麼會是兩件事呢？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上……"],["邱委員鎮軍：它絕對是一直影響下去，不可能沒有直接影響。"],["彭部長啓明：減碳是全球的價值、責任，電價是電價，所以這兩個應該是脫鉤的，但是我必須說，我也知道……"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是電價成本提高，轉嫁到民生消費的時候，它就是提高的啊！這是一定會呈現出來的。"],["彭部長啓明：對，但我們面對減碳的責任，這是全世界一起動的，我們也不能置身事外。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，我也不是說不做這件事情，我只是希望在做這些設定時一定要考慮對於整個CPI的影響，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看台塑花了16年減碳24%，照你們訂的優惠費率標準，鋼鐵業要減碳25%，水泥業減碳22%，其他行業減碳42%，我想問的是，第一波收碳費的500家廠商，在2026年可以用到優惠方案A的有多少家？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望全部都要用。"],["邱委員鎮軍：全部都要用，是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望，因為我並不是要收一筆錢來給國庫使用、給環境部使用，我希望都可以用。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我打個比方，像進口水泥這一年來為臺灣帶來300萬噸的碳排，這部分要收碳費嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：目前不用，但是跟委員報告，因為我們會開始研議臺版的CBAM，類似歐盟的碳邊境調整機制，因為歐盟的專家歡迎我們臺灣……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這就是我要講的，以水泥來講，當進口成本比自己生產成本低的時候，臺灣的企業就會受到影響，甚至於出走，所以剛剛部長講的，我就是希望我們要有臺版CBAM的版本出來，讓我們的企業能夠留在臺灣。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，目前我們正在跨部會協調，進口的水泥業者、我們本地要收碳費的業者可以跟我們說他進口的業者是誰、競爭者是誰，我們會協調各個部會，針對進口來的水泥、鋼筋等等，希望他們先申報，我們完全是比照歐盟的方式來進行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我再問一下，現在徵收碳費到底是為了淨零碳排，還是部會搶錢的一個……"],["彭部長啓明：為了淨零碳排，我希望收得越低越好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這麼多錢到底怎麼用？到時候收的錢怎麼用？"],["彭部長啓明：目前氣候變遷因應法裡面有訂出一些規則，舉例來說，如氣候變遷的調適、天災調適的費用，或是說幫助我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：天災怎麼調適？調適什麼東西？"],["彭部長啓明：例如苗栗越來越熱，現在很多農產品可能沒有辦法在那個地方生產，我們要輔導農民做一些別的事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以它擴及的方面很廣喔？"],["彭部長啓明：很廣、很廣，但是它……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個東西什麼時候會出來？"],["彭部長啓明：目前碳費最快是在後年收到，2026年年中（5月）才會收到第一筆錢，整個碳費制度上路之後，我們的費率……溫室氣體管理基金應該就會討論這個議題，我們會依據法令來解決、處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。另外，我再問一下，我不得不稱讚你一下，今天來做垃圾山的專案報告，昨天就發新聞了，可見部長真的很重視這一塊，也是真的想好好處理這部分。我看到您從上任到現在，山頭有慢慢減少，最近好像減少了4場（4座山），當然我們也希望能持續，但您說多久要把現在的53場垃圾山降下來？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，3年，就是到2026年的6月，因為我是在端午節宣示。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是剩下3年，那1年至少要幾座？"],["彭部長啓明：1年……委員不能這樣算，因為現在還有很多在發包，現在這幾個月比較慢，不能用這種……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我也謝謝你，您也同意補助苗栗大概1.1億，讓我們苗栗市的垃圾場來處理。另外還有一件事，我們後龍資源回收儲存廠因為中央政策的改變，必須要遷建，整個計畫大概要1.6億元，但是目前因為資源循環署的基金規模太小，每一案最高上限只有2,500萬，所以在執行上絕對是有困難的，沒有辦法推動，部長可不可以答應我們，給我們專案的協助？"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，這個我們再做整體評估好不好？我剛才的簡報裡面有兩頁提到，我希望推動臺灣有一個全循環的資源循環園區，如果這可以搭配的好，我覺得可以來考慮。"],["邱委員鎮軍：資源循環，就是回收再利用的一個……"],["彭部長啓明：等於是一個大規模的……對，因為我認為不是每一件事情都是廢棄物，應該都有它存在的價值、循環的價值。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然啦，如果把垃圾分類做得更好，這絕對對垃圾減量是有幫助的。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果有這樣的場地，我們也希望由部裡面來推動，這在地方上真的常常碰到，因為這是嫌惡設施嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當要推動的時候，往往都會碰到一些困難，明明就是對的事情，搞到後面都不敢做。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我希望從中央開始，我們一起努力達成垃圾減量，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝部長。","接續請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:11:22","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:20:05+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155105","委員名稱":"柯志恩","duration":682,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:08:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493afe03f4d30ccbfe602bf54ec90cbbd08772a8a89b87e0382f3b915669f50d0dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.75159375,"end":9.970343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.898468750000003,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.745968750000003,"end":57.321593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.61659375000001,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.77659375,"end":63.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.73846875,"end":99.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.47096875000001,"end":101.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.64784375,"end":104.25096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.31846875000001,"end":120.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","s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謝謝我們是不是請部長跟我們的杜次長好 有請鄭部長跟杜次長兩位好我想從第一位到我這個部分大家都聚焦在有關於班班有鮮奶這樣的一個政策我想這個政策當然是一個美意不管是對孩子的健康或者是對我們弱農的一個發展我想應該是給予讚賞了但是還是一句話永遠換了一個問題就是"},{"start":33.331,"end":53.816,"text":"我永遠只有一個政策然後到最後淪為一個口號剛剛我們就特別提到了我記得在七月中旬的時候有一句話就是章廖次長特別是提到的每週提供兩次鮮奶一定不會打折信誓旦旦而且特別提到只有偏鄉才會喝飽酒乳那目前教育部的統計飽酒乳占75.77%部長這些都是偏鄉嗎?"},{"start":63.787,"end":86.422,"text":"這就是你們當初口號喊得這麼大聲結果發現需要所有的問題都出來不要說沒有冷鏈系統包括你給予的這些到時候再怎麼樣清理是不是造成所有的垃圾等等之類的都沒有好好來做討論所以讓這個美意就被打上一個折扣但是我們既然這個目標已經打出來了我們還是要看看一來怎麼解決我們來看下面那你看一下結果目前來說的話"},{"start":90.365,"end":99.448,"text":"部長你知道嗎?保久乳的預算你們編的是五億兩千多為什麼絕標只有兩億進而不到預算的一半為什麼?為什麼?來我們次長也可以回應一下是 這個包括保久乳或者是鮮奶的這個底價應該叫成本成本計算還加上合理論這個都是跟廠商那邊的所以嘛你們當初絕標你們絕標只有人家的一半你們就要知道問題所在那我請問14塊怎麼定出來的?"},{"start":120.276,"end":136.297,"text":"是廠商一起討論出來的?你現在在外面市價多少嗎?廠商有沒有利潤?廠商出來結果你發現廠商到處給你們部分每個人都想要競標得到結果發現根本完全沒有利潤可言以至於你們看你們現在絕標只有這樣子你們知道問題所在嗎?"},{"start":140.051,"end":145.375,"text":"在採購過程應該是量夠大,那…量覺得夠大嗎?其實沒有,你們的問題全部都完全出來了所以難怪從頭到尾每個委員都直擊我幫你做一個綜合整理嘛每個難道會質疑說你們是為了進口薄酒乳來做一個鋪路當初希望能夠來振興我們的酪農結果呢,你看,你光是14加2塊的運費16塊"},{"start":163.627,"end":169.05,"text":"你就沒有辦法不服成本糯農的品質很好當然價錢比這個更高結果你看勉強的配合是得標沒有得標的小糯農完全被擠出市場造成盛難而且還要被下殺收購這對我們的本土的糯農是一個非常大的傷害更不要說的羊乳產業馬上就被斷頭目前羊乳有六成是血統結果呢教育部跟農業部告訴我們說每個都有鮮奶可以喝馬上大家要停定了就你看看"},{"start":192.785,"end":193.789,"text":"你要救多農的產業你反而先重創羊奶產業的生計有沒有這個事實?"},{"start":200.229,"end":227.635,"text":"謝謝委員提醒喔兩件事情第一個是不管是我們當然是希望大家都可以喝到國產的鮮奶但現在的公共供應契約上不管是保酒奶或者是鮮奶都一定要是國產用國內生產的牛奶鮮奶才能去做這是第一點沒有我現在問說你羊奶的產業你知道會造成這樣的一個結果嗎羊奶的產業其實我們在上個月跟這星期其實都有要約來談這是一件事情是因為產業的大小規模不同"},{"start":227.875,"end":241.36,"text":"好,我只是要提醒,你這造成影響,等一下還有很多的問題,來,我們再往下看,然後呢,你看有百分之三點多的孩子是去乳糖不耐,然後呢,你需要有這個所謂的涵蓋的豆漿,請問為什麼現在尚未決標?為什麼現在還沒有決標?"},{"start":245.26,"end":269.688,"text":"因為它不是一般豆漿,它是涵蓋豆漿我們現在台灣有涵蓋豆漿嗎?有,有兩家有哪兩家?它的豆,它的豆是來自於國產的還是來自國外的?我其實幫你做市場區隔了有,其實它們是有涵蓋豆漿然後呢,但是它們都是來自於外國的豆,不是台灣本土的豆然後我再往下來看,所以你可能要搞清楚喔而且你看看喔,還要提醒,保守者採購契約"},{"start":271.368,"end":274.752,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向。」"},{"start":287.914,"end":302.553,"text":"這個部分因為驗收的時間一月一號以後才會是保久乳一月一號可是你現在七月並沒有改現在才十月你現在七月沒有改國產鮮乳的部分是一定要TAP那我下次說保久乳保久乳現在完全沒有CAS或TAP"},{"start":303.649,"end":332.38,"text":"然後你說明年1月1號你怎麼可以保證這些保久乳一定有CAS或TAP然後你現在還沒有改你就要現在10月的人怎麼驗收在現在的契約裡面就是它只要是國產生乳製造的保久乳喔 對不起喔你目前為止你還是根據你們的設計的方式喔來去做這樣的處理我只是告訴你說目前這都是學校單位所反映給我們的目前是有這樣子的一個問題所以這個你們一定要特別注意接下來我們再來看喔部長你看看"},{"start":333.18,"end":336.202,"text":"農業部說四年的供應政策不會被改變但是你看像牛奶的問題、配送的問題全部丟給廠商跟學校這個是大家已經收集所有的意見了當你這個政策要推出來之前你們這些單位到底有沒有好好的去做一些的溝通你看"},{"start":349.993,"end":374.744,"text":"這些都是學校老師所反映給我們倒是每個月配送幾次而且配送的路線當初廠商說好是由他們來決定可是目前為止學校不同的學校都不同的一個方法所以到底是如何怎麼樣的分裝喝完誰來清洗怎麼樣來整理垃圾部長這些零零總總你現在應該到任何地方去這個政策出來應該有接受到很多學校complain的意見嗎特別是第一線的老師應該有吧"},{"start":377.59,"end":403.328,"text":"確實這也是我們希望說透過這一個學期能夠更深入了解更地方部長你說更深入了解我同意的但是你五月就見報你七月就已經信誓旦旦說來現在已經十月了所以你不能跟我說你要慢慢來了解這就是我剛剛一開始說的政策美意是很好可是你們永遠政策先推出來口號先出來然後呢細節你就告訴我說我們再慢慢收集這不可以這樣啦部長不可以這樣啦"},{"start":406.33,"end":422.519,"text":"我跟委員報告確實我們也聽到第一線上的這些校長跟老師他們有一些因為這一個政策所面臨的一些挑戰我們也把他拉進來那你覺得四年的公益政策會不會縮水?農業部跟部長你們可以保證嗎?"},{"start":423.922,"end":436.509,"text":"你們現在目前可以站在這個地方告訴我嗎這是你們既定的政策為了孩子的健康為了弱農的發展弱農發展我已經幫你既定了沒有幫助到弱農反而讓我們的養奶的產業先斷裂然後呢你們可以保證這四年的供應政策不會縮水嗎會不會縮水"},{"start":439.212,"end":446.939,"text":"那我剛剛所講的這些問題你目前都沒有辦法解決啊你不能告訴我說目前每個人都是75%都是由學校來決定學校就是沒有冷鏈系統他被迫沒有選擇只能選擇飽酒辱那我再跟部長講你們也有很多人去觀察這個日本日本的營養午餐必付牛奶已經實行了十幾年了"},{"start":460.45,"end":470.572,"text":"日本人早就做到了那台灣為什麼到現在為止還哩哩啷啷部長你有去發現原因嗎利益良好為什麼日本做得到我們做不到你知道這中心的原因在哪裡嗎"},{"start":472.057,"end":473.298,"text":"中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":491.671,"end":500.999,"text":"現在學校老師已經被行政系統已經減量都減不了了你還要再增加他的負擔然後呢大家有幫你們想到一個方法有沒有機會去到超商來兌換還有我還是要強調對於乳糖不耐的孩子你這些豆漿到底是如何來訣標而且我要直指我問過廠商涵蓋的豆奶"},{"start":513.149,"end":528.389,"text":"目前為止那些涵蓋的豆奶那些豆子基本上不是國產是國外的這些都是有待釐清我還是要提醒我們從農委會提升到農業部已經給予到農業部的標準我覺得整個的品質還是要提升部長你現在解決這些怎麼解決"},{"start":530.932,"end":554.358,"text":"剛剛前面那幾個問題你看我更幫你弄出來了你看丁配送、瞬間鋁箔包、吸管、吸管套、塑膠、塑膠膜老師都幫你想好了沒有剪開要清血會發臭垃圾量驚人有些學員不愛喝偷偷倒掉造成浪費配送時間跟學校的作息完全沒有辦法配合沒有冰箱沒有地方保存都幫你全部整理完畢這只有條列7點我還可以告訴你17點這些東西"},{"start":556.579,"end":565.366,"text":"牛奶卷會不會是一個選擇的方法?如果沒有辦法解決這些問題,你今天告訴我你要撐四年,我覺得都是一些非常困難的事情。部長你怎麼說?這邊讓他改管。"},{"start":569.517,"end":585.789,"text":"我們會努力改善你要努力來改善我們就看看怎麼樣來改善這還是要提醒部長一個政策的提醒真的是配套沒有做好不要馬上拿出一個大內宣的口號那更不要說有鮮奶的部分我們剛剛說有一部分是要能夠提振我們酪農我要問一下杜次長酪農其實有大的改變"},{"start":588.931,"end":591.474,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":611.215,"end":611.775,"text":"謝謝委員支持我們的立場跟落農是一樣的"},{"start":638.664,"end":638.945,"text":"長校乳或ESL乳"},{"start":651.042,"end":678.534,"text":"這都叫做鮮乳我們的立場其實跟落農是一樣的你們完全不一樣杜次長你是不一樣你應該多多聽落農先生這些全部是他們的反應給我們的90天不叫做鮮乳我覺得在這個定義上面你們或許還有非常大的一個空間總而言之好的政策希望部長希望次長能夠好好的對於配套的部分才去做否則你就會遭受從頭到尾其實大家的問題都一樣怎麼樣把它落實這還是提供兩位行政首長好好來做一些檢討謝謝"},{"start":682.196,"end":682.42,"text":"好,我們"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:08:43 - 10:20:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155105","gazette":{"lineno":290,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時8分）謝謝。我們是不是請部長跟杜次長？"],["主席（萬委員美玲）：有請鄭部長跟杜次長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：兩位好。我想從第一位到我，大家都聚焦在有關於班班有鮮奶這樣的一個政策，我想這個政策當然是一個美意，不管是對孩子的健康，或者是對我們酪農的發展，我想應該是給予讚賞，但是還是一句話，永遠換了一個問題，就是永遠只有一個政策，然後到最後淪為一個口號。剛剛我們就特別提到了，我記得在7月中旬的時候，有一句話是張廖次長特別提到的，每週提供兩次鮮奶一定不會打折，信誓旦旦，而且特別提到只有偏鄉才會喝保久乳，目前就教育部的統計，保久乳占75.77%。部長，這些都是偏鄉嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：不是，不必然是……"],["柯委員志恩：是嘛！所以這就是你們當初口號喊得這麼大聲，結果發現學校所有的問題都出來，不要說沒有冷鏈系統，包括你給予的這些到時候怎麼樣清理，是不是造成所有的垃圾等等之類的，都沒有好好來做討論，所以讓這個美意就被打上一個折扣，但是既然這個目標已經打出來了，我們還是來看看要怎麼一一來解決。你看一下，以目前來說，部長你知道嗎？保久乳的預算編的是五億兩千多，為什麼決標只有兩億，金額不到預算的一半，為什麼？來，次長也可以回應一下。"],["杜次長文珍：是，包括保久乳或者是鮮奶的底價，應該叫成本，成本計算還加上利潤，這個都是跟廠商那邊的……"],["柯委員志恩：所以嘛！你們當初決標，你們決標只有人家的一半，你們就應該知道問題所在，那我請問14塊是怎麼訂出來的？"],["杜次長文珍：是廠商一起討論出來的，他們……"],["柯委員志恩：廠商一起討論出來的？"],["杜次長文珍：是可以合理的承受價格……"],["柯委員志恩：你現在說外面市價多少嘛！廠商有沒有利潤？廠商討論出來的，結果你發現廠商當初給你們的部分，因為每個人都想要競標得到，結果發現根本完全沒有利潤可言，以至於你們看，你們現在決標只有這樣子，你們知道問題所在嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：在採購過程應該是量夠大，廠商……"],["柯委員志恩：量絕對夠大嗎？其實沒有，你們的問題都完全顯現出來了，所以也難怪從頭到尾每個委員都質疑，我幫你做一個綜合整理，每個委員難怪會質疑你們是為了進口保久乳來做一個鋪路，當初希望能夠來振興我們的酪農，結果呢？你看你光是14塊加2塊的運費，16塊，你就沒有辦法，不符成本！酪農的品質很好，他的價錢當然比這個更高，結果你看勉強的配合式得標，沒有得標的小酪農完全被擠出市場，造成剩奶，而且還要被下殺收購，這對我們本土的酪農是一個非常大的傷害，更不要說羊乳產業馬上就被斷頭，目前羊乳的客戶有六成是學童，結果教育部跟農業部告訴我們每個人都有鮮奶可以喝，馬上大家就停訂了，結果你看看，你要救酪農的產業，你反而先重創羊奶產業的生計，有沒有這個事實？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員提醒，兩件事情，第一個，我們當然是希望大家都可以喝到國產的鮮奶，現在的共同供應契約上，不管是保久奶或者是鮮奶都一定要是國產，用國內生產的牛奶、鮮奶才能去做，這是第一點……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有，我現在是問羊奶的產業，你知道會造成這樣的一個結果嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：羊奶的產業其實我們在上個月跟這星期都有邀約來談，這是一件事情是因為產業的大小規模不同，那麼羊乳……"],["柯委員志恩：我只是要提醒你這個造成的影響，等一下還有很多的問題。","我們再往下看，然後你看有百分之三點多的孩子是乳糖不耐症，你需要有所謂含鈣的豆漿，請問為什麼現在尚未決標？為什麼現在還沒有決標？"],["杜次長文珍：因為它不是一般豆漿，它是含鈣豆漿，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：我們臺灣現在有含鈣豆漿嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：有，有兩家。"],["柯委員志恩：哪兩家？它的豆是來自於國產的，還是來自國外的？我其實幫你做市場區隔了，其實他們是有含鈣豆漿，但是他們都是來自於外國的豆，不是臺灣本土的豆，所以你可能要搞清楚，而且你看看，還要提醒保久乳的採購契約，標示一定要有CAS或TAP，但是目前的保久乳只有TQF，那怎麼辦？第一線的人員誰敢來驗收，這是你規定的，跟現實完全是不符，他怎麼敢驗收？次長，這怎麼辦？"],["杜次長文珍：這個部分因為驗收的時間……1月1號以後才會是保久乳……"],["柯委員志恩：1月1號？可是你現在契約並沒有改，現在才10月，你現在契約沒有改喔！"],["杜次長文珍：國產鮮乳的部分是一定要TAP跟CAS，這個沒問題……"],["柯委員志恩：我現在是說保久乳，保久乳現在完全沒有CAS或TAP，你說明年1月1號，你怎麼可以保證這些保久乳一定有CAS或TAP？然後你現在還沒有改，現在是10月，怎麼驗收？"],["杜次長文珍：在現在的契約裡面就是它只要是國產生乳製造的保久乳。"],["柯委員志恩：對不起！目前為止，你還是根據你們設計的方式來做這樣的處理，我只是告訴你這些都是學校單位所反映給我們的，目前是有這樣子的問題，所以你們一定要特別注意。","接下來，部長你看看，農業部說4年的供應政策不會被改變，但是你看現在牛奶配送的問題全部丟給廠商跟學校，這是大家已經蒐集的所有意見了，當這個政策要推出來之前，你們這些單位到底有沒有好好的去做一些溝通？你看，這些都是學校老師所反映給我們的，到底是每個月配送幾次，而且配送的路線當初廠商說好是由他們來決定，可是目前為止，不同的學校都有不同的方法，所以到底是如何？怎麼樣來分裝、喝完誰來清洗、怎麼樣來整理垃圾？部長，這些林林總總，這個政策出來，你現在到任何地方去，應該有接收到很多學校抱怨的意見吧？特別是第一線的老師，應該有吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實，我們也希望透過這個學期能夠更深入了解各地方需求，然後怎麼合作來做得更好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長，你說更深入了解，我同意，但是你5月就見報，你7月就已經信誓旦旦，現在已經10月了，所以你不能跟我說你要慢慢來了解。這就是我剛剛一開始說的，政策美意是很好，可是你永遠政策先推出來、口號先出來，然後細節你就告訴我說我們再慢慢蒐集，不能這樣啦，部長，不能這樣啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：我跟委員報告，確實我們也聽到第一線的這些校長跟老師因為這個政策所面臨的一些挑戰，我們也把它納進來，未來……"],["柯委員志恩：那你覺得4年的供應政策會不會縮水，農業部跟部長，你們可以保證嗎？你們現在可以站在這個地方告訴我嗎？這是你們既定的政策，為了孩子的健康、為了酪農的發展，酪農發展我已經幫你界定，沒有幫助到酪農，反而讓我們的羊奶產業先斷鏈；然後你們可以保證這4年的供應政策不會縮水嗎？會不會縮水？我剛剛所講的這些問題，你目前都沒有辦法解決啊，你不能告訴我說目前每個人都是75%、都是由學校來決定，學校就是沒有冷鏈系統，它被迫沒有選擇，只能選擇保久乳。我再跟部長講，你們也有很多人去觀察日本，日本的營養午餐必附牛奶，已經實行十幾年了，日本早就做到了，臺灣為什麼到現在為止還「離離落落」，部長，你有發現原因嗎？立意良好，但為什麼日本做得到，我們做不到？你知道這中間的原因在哪裡嗎？","我先綜整一下，鮮奶跟保久乳的比例要不要調整一下？還有冷鏈的運送，家長當然還是希望孩子喝到鮮奶，但冷鏈的部分沒有幫他們解決是沒有辦法的。所以剛剛有委員不斷在說，學校怎麼儲存、怎麼樣來發配，然後你還告訴我行政人員還有獎勵，現在學校老師的行政系統要減量都減不了了，你還要再增加他的負擔，大家有幫你們想到一個方法，有沒有機會去超商兌換；還有我還是要強調，對於乳糖不耐的孩子，這些豆漿到底如何來決標？而且我問過廠商，目前為止那些含鈣豆奶的豆子基本上不是國產，是國外的，這些都是有待釐清，我還是要提醒，從農委會提升到農業部，已經給你到農業部的標準，我覺得整個品質還是要提升，部長，你現在要怎麼解決這些問題？","剛剛前面那幾個問題，你看我幫你列出來了，你看，盯配送、瞬間造成鋁箔包、吸管、吸管套、塑膠膜等，老師都幫你想好問題了，沒有剪開清洗會發臭、垃圾量驚人、有些學生不愛喝，偷偷倒掉造成浪費、配送時間跟學校的作息完全沒有辦法配合、沒有冰箱、沒有地方保存，這些都幫你全部整理完畢，這只有條列七點，我還可以告訴你十七點，因此牛奶券會不會是個選擇的方法？如果沒有辦法解決這些問題，你今天告訴我你要撐4年，我覺得是一件非常困難的事情，部長，你怎麼說？要怎麼樣來改善？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會來努力改善。"],["柯委員志恩：你要努力來改善，好，我們就看看怎麼樣來改善，還是要提醒部長，一個政策的配套沒有做好，不要馬上拿出大內宣的口號。更不要說鮮奶的部分，我們剛剛說有一部分是要提振我們的酪農，我要問一下杜次長，酪農其實有大的改變，6月的時候食藥署已經釐清了，你們現在創造非常多鮮奶的標語，延長保存期限的鮮乳、長效的鮮乳、ESL的鮮乳，對我來說鮮乳的保存就是兩個禮拜，要是兩個禮拜沒有喝完，我就覺得很焦慮，結果有效時間90天，你們還稱為鮮乳嗎？這讓很多酪農非常、非常地焦慮，而且非常憤怒。而且對於紐西蘭的鮮乳，所謂你們定義的鮮乳，要進來還零關稅，這樣會不會讓我們現在這些小酪農反而承受更大的災害？光是你們對於鮮奶的定義，如果定義不清楚的話，對於這些辛辛苦苦的酪農，根本沒有辦法振興到他們的產業，反而讓他們陷入更大的絕境。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員支持，我們的立場跟酪農是一樣的。"],["柯委員志恩：跟什麼一樣？"],["杜次長文珍：跟酪農是一樣的。"],["柯委員志恩：有嗎？那你告訴我，你們創造這麼多名詞，你們的立場根本不一樣，這都是他們反映出來的，90天還叫鮮乳嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：長效乳或ESL乳……"],["柯委員志恩：都叫做鮮乳。"],["杜次長文珍：我們的立場其實跟酪農是一樣的。"],["柯委員志恩：你們完全不一樣，杜次長，你不一樣，你應該多多聽酪農的聲音，這些全部都是他們反映給我們的，90天不叫做鮮乳，我覺得在這個定義上面，你們或許還有非常大的空間。總而言之，好的政策，希望部長、希望次長能夠好好地對於配套的部分去做，否則你就會遭受……從頭到尾其實大家的問題都一樣，怎麼樣把它落實，還是提供兩位行政首長好好來做一些檢討。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員，部長、次長請回。","下一位我們有請葉元之委員。","在范雲委員質詢結束之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葉元之","范雲","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張嘉郡","洪申翰","張雅琳","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","林月琴","吳春城","黃健豪","黃國昌","牛煦庭","徐富癸","羅智強","吳沛憶","高金素梅","李彥秀"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部部長鄭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時候憲法法庭看到的你也看到了嘛這個立法委員是可以以事先申請人或者訴訟相對人或關係人在憲法審判的時候憲法法庭開審的時候呢去對大法官進行延遲的交互辯論所以我們樂見呢如果有任何的不管職務上是不是立法委員只要他認為他提出包括憲法訴訟"},{"start":127.546,"end":154.708,"text":"他可以以相對人或關係人的身份去跟未來的大法官好好的談一下他對這次憲判要旨的不同意見但是我希望如果有這樣的主張者應該先趕快促使我們的大法官的人事同意權能夠保證在10月能夠持續下去不然未來想找大法官在憲法法庭上針鋒相對恐怕找不到對手了你同意這樣的一個看法嗎"},{"start":156.634,"end":170.637,"text":"委員告見好謝謝好那請回那接下來呢我要請教法務部部長這個9月20號憲判第8號說死刑事先後由兩位受死刑宣告的受刑人將可獲非常上訴為什麼這兩位為什麼他可以馬上按麥克風"},{"start":180.051,"end":200.499,"text":"就是這兩位是因為那時候判決確定的時候星碼348就是剛剛唯一死刑的秘書長所說的嘛那另外的35個人有沒有可能有機會提出非常上訴這部分我想總長在調卷有可能嘛有可能因為他們37個都有參與憲法訴訟那你事件嘛他那個判的8號的判決是認為說他這個有那個心智缺陷"},{"start":207.501,"end":234.652,"text":"所以你認為有沒有可能全數都適用憲判意旨可以申請救濟呢?這部分還要帶檢討總長來好,這是檢討總長的權限那我們來看一下這次我們過去的死刑案件的執行流程可能這些被宣告死刑的受刑人他在被起訴前就被羈押了那目前他是在入監收容的情況未來在等候執行,是不是這樣?是好,那現在法務部呢如果檢討總長認為要提起非常上述以落實憲判的意旨那請問我們看到這個流程圖齁"},{"start":236.593,"end":265.185,"text":"那如果要提出非常上訴有可能這個會被駁回當然繼續收容對不對但是有可能未來他如果進行這個非常上訴審理後發回更審就是准與撤銷原判決那法務部會促請他繼續羈押嗎對我們一定會一定會嘛至少這37個任何一個如果未來為了落實憲判意旨由總長認為他可以符合非常上訴提出了那那個"},{"start":266.533,"end":289.461,"text":"法院也接受撤銷原判決准予他發回更審那你們會促請羈押嗎?是不是這樣?這個我們要求在那個我們在那個最高法院的時候我們會促請那個會在建立法院最高法院要最高法院你要促請他羈押但他可能准報告的時候我們也是會要求你一定會這樣做但他也有可能駁回暫時釋放有可能嗎?有沒有這個可能?"},{"start":290.595,"end":309.313,"text":"如果有這個可能的話,我想我們會依照刑訴法416條,我們認為還是要看告,如果說他不要...好,了解,那我們來看一下,非常上訴之後,如果要發回更審,那麼法院在什麼情況之下可以羈押,一般就是一般羈押嘛,有逃亡之餘嘛,或者說他有反覆實施同一範圍行為,刑訴法101之1嘛,這兩種情況,"},{"start":312.876,"end":338.375,"text":"只要有這兩種情況,一定會促請法院羈押,是不是?這個我們會建立一定要羈押那如果到時候法院不予羈押,有沒有其他的方法方式?如果說他那個,各位報告,如果說他這個有其他的徒刑要執行,我們一定是先發指揮書,就直接就發件執行了就是說他除了死刑的判決,他還受其他的徒刑的你會窮盡一切方式來防止他們"},{"start":339.396,"end":366.244,"text":"請問一下目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人大概受了什麼罪殺人、強盜殺人還有擄人勒贖其中有8位還涉及性侵殺人那請問一下根據保安處問執行法第4條法院可以對於應付監護、禁戒還有強制治療認為有緊急必要時請問緊急必要時誰要提出法院來認定誰要提出"},{"start":367.335,"end":393.08,"text":"你們認不認爲這幾個可以透過包括《刑法第91條》之一性侵、強盜殺人、辱人、勒贖可施以強制治療你們有主張這樣的可能性嗎目前現在還在他已經是在執行對,我說未來如果說他的原判決被撤銷如果他非常上述成功原判決被撤銷他再暫行更審你們可以援引這《刑法第91條》之一要求致以強制治療嗎這是一個可行的途徑"},{"start":398.687,"end":418.717,"text":"我們是照那個憲法九十一條之一的規定來辦理是嗎 是可以嗎那如果是強制治療他就不能出來了嗎強制治療的話如果說法院有裁定強制治療當然一定要所以不一定羈押就算沒有准予羈押你們申請有緊急必要的時候你們提出根據九十一條之一也可以要求施以強制治療對不對這個法條規定是這樣的是這樣很好那我們再回到一個情況那現在大家爭議一個問題"},{"start":423.88,"end":437.786,"text":"那如果說有可能這些透過非常上述符合憲判意旨的他後來被改判為無期徒刑那麼社會上有一種呼聲說要讓他們不得假釋或者終身拘禁法務部的看法如何?"},{"start":440.159,"end":454.048,"text":"如果改判無期徒刑的如果說最高法院自我判決的話他馬上一判決就確定了我們就直接就法件執行了嘛是那如果無期徒刑他說有假釋的規定大家的看法呢假釋我們認為我們現在是研修我們認為齁"},{"start":455.229,"end":477.871,"text":"這個是屬於這個特殊性的一個憲法的判決是以前歷史上從來沒有的那我們有不一樣的思考我們也是應濟憲判的意思我們提出的一些的有要修法嗎要修我們原理性的要修類似這樣的你們會要求怎樣我們可能這部分我們研修我們認為是排除那個譬如說那個屬於最重要的故意殺人罪或殺人罪"},{"start":478.531,"end":480.334,"text":"如果未來修法也是在立法院"},{"start":490.512,"end":519.05,"text":"在修法通過之前好了修法通過之後現在這37位適不適用我們認為要重新適用要用新法來適用要以新法來適用也就是說如果說在他們在立法院修法照你的意思完成修法之前這37位有任何一位經過法委更審之後或判為無期徒刑那麼未來修法通過之後還是要適用修法那個新法是新法我們是要研修我們是比較你們是這樣主張的是不是我們是認為以適用新法的規定較為妥適"},{"start":519.81,"end":542.276,"text":"你們是這樣主張也就是說未來無期徒刑不得假釋如果這條法規法條修法上路了那麼對於審判中的案子或者已經判決案子一起施用這個假釋的制度還是認為新法我們認為就還合理好我了解你的態度就剛剛莊委員說的你可以有所立場有所表達但是我們大家一起來討論好不好往下看那麼現在如果判無期徒刑那什麼這37位假設"},{"start":544.215,"end":563.634,"text":"受刑宣告：受無期徒刑：後來重新受無期徒刑宣告：他可以：過去這段時間的收容：可以扣抵刑期嗎因為這些人很多被壓很久了目前的話：跟委包目前是：要執行25年才達到假釋的門檻那這些37個人當中有沒有已經在執行執行前已經被"},{"start":564.415,"end":587.645,"text":"收容很久了這個收容是很久但是我們是反對我們是不認為這個不能抵扣那必須從他假設後來被宣告無期徒刑從執行開始才起算過去的不算我們認為是不算的你們認為是不算的那個收容的期限是不能折抵收容期限不能算必須從重新判決宣告無期徒刑開始執行才算對不對對"},{"start":588.385,"end":610.403,"text":"好那就是執行的問題那執行的問題這裡面呢我們看到假釋的規定包括有憲法第17條有圈毀實據的有圈毀實據的才可能可以申請而且監獄刑刑法這是你們主管的你們來審查的你們要從嚴審核有重大暴力的就不可以重大危害的也不可以出獄後會引發社會不安的也不可以"},{"start":611.725,"end":629.025,"text":"這些重新審查的權利是不是在你們法務部手上?對,這個是由根據建立憲法第116條的規定以及受刑人假釋實施辦法第3條的規範來做一個...你們有權利來決定判斷對不對?這部分我們是不是請那個..."},{"start":630.607,"end":655.131,"text":"我繼續問嘛繼續問嘛那你怎麼辦算有圈毀實據、強盜殺人等案件是不是應該從嚴審查這是政策你可以回答我想直接從政策面不從知性面啦我們是要求從嚴審核就是這三個條件要從嚴審查那個跟委員報告齁從95年實行這個新制以來齁我們這個這個還沒有這些三還沒有這些人沒有從來沒有符合假釋規定的你們從嚴審好了那這個就是社會在看"},{"start":658.012,"end":667.03,"text":"因為社會對目前已經宣告執行的這37位的受刑人他很關注也對於未來如果有機會他們獲得會上上訴未來的重新"},{"start":667.734,"end":695.279,"text":"更審或判決大家也在關注未來他們是否在繼續監獄裡面繼續受刑也非常關注好我們往下看但是有個問題啊判決意旨呢宣判8的主文當中他說受死刑是預知者就算這些受死刑預知有精神障礙或是確認剛剛我們的審委員問過了你要由精神科醫師來做精神鑑定他可以申請嗎這些受死刑勸告的受刑人可以主動申請如果來鑑定受刑能力他們有沒有權利這37位有沒有權利"},{"start":697.657,"end":716.774,"text":"他們可以主張他們可以主張那誰來去找精神科醫師幫他們做判斷我想這個是屬於那個行為那個審理中這部分一個是審理一個是授刑授刑跟審理都一樣我現在談的是授刑來我們請那個心理那個行為師市長您覺得站在一屆的立場來講"},{"start":718.123,"end":733.493,"text":"心理界精神醫師會接受這樣的委託來判斷受死刑宣告受刑人一旦他沒有精神上的障礙可受死刑的受刑你們會醫師能夠說他現在是符合受刑的能力你們會有找到這樣醫師嗎"},{"start":735.061,"end":761.964,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們現在精神科醫師接受這個鑑定的嘱托要不就是法院來嘱托那是審理中的受審能力對 要不就是檢察官來嘱托那就是說看行為之後有沒有行為能力那我們的精神科醫師最主要是利用他的醫學專業的知識如果是在這個行為史的話就看他當下的程度是不是有精神障礙我如果是精神科醫師涉及到行為史有沒有能力"},{"start":762.805,"end":784.065,"text":"那因為後來怎麼判是法院的事情嘛所以精神科醫師敢判他行為時有沒有精神上的障礙有沒有行為能力他的審判時受審時有沒有受審能力能不能理解現在在審理什麼那個精神科醫師有沒有掛礙因為最後的結果不知道但是一旦結果知道了做死刑宣告你一旦認定他有受刑能力無精神障礙有受刑能力"},{"start":786.369,"end":794.936,"text":"認定有受刑能力的時候他執行死刑你覺得作為一個醫師來講他能夠做出這樣的一個能承受這樣的壓力做出這樣的決定嗎"},{"start":796.284,"end":822.79,"text":"有關於這個執行時這個個案到底有沒有受刑的能力的話其實這個部分的鑑定精神科醫師最主要是說要去鑑定這個個案他是不是能夠理解死刑的判決的理由跟執行他到底了不了解這個部分所以我們的精神科醫師主要是在鑑定這個部分就是說他理解這個受刑是基於什麼理由他理解他理不理解如果他被關到老人室他不能理解那就永遠不能受刑是這樣嗎"},{"start":824.57,"end":850.517,"text":"我們精神科醫師最主要是提供他的醫學的專業的知識謝謝市長不為難你部長了解了現在憲判的意旨我們要落實因為大法官的權威的解釋我們行政機關、立法機關受其拘束但是執行的時候會發生這些問題要預為籌謀好不好是最後有兩個部分請主席再給我一點時間各國的執行狀況目前我們所了解的完全廢死的有佔百分之將近六成112個國家"},{"start":852.839,"end":862.846,"text":"最近5年無執行的是23個國家佔12%保留也就是說目前雖然沒有執行死刑但是過去5年有執行死刑的台灣目前是在哪一個位置"},{"start":865.421,"end":890.164,"text":"台灣現在是在這55啦簡單講完全廢死的將近6成國家將近6成沒有完全廢死的呢有將近4成台灣是在這4成 對不對好 那我們來看一下那這是國家來看喔但是我們來看一下大多數人援引的美國各州的死刑各州 因為美國這50個州完全廢死的是藍色的有23個州不到一半已經停止的呢有3個州"},{"start":891.525,"end":912.51,"text":"保留的是紅色的24個州換言之在美國以各州的立法來講不到一半是廢死其他超過一半還是有死刑的存在這你瞭解嗎這瞭解那你們有沒有去做過調查研究這些跟台灣處境相同的美國各州或世界各國他們對於本席剛剛所提出的問題他們採取什麼樣的做法"},{"start":913.23,"end":930.241,"text":"跟委員報告根據這個問題我們已經有委託研究了有委託研究了好那就是我要問最後一個問題了請法務部跟司法院也配套研究這主要國家的法律制度包括美國的各州包括對於受死刑宣告者受刑能力的精神鑑定他們如何處理"},{"start":931.212,"end":931.532,"text":"這部分我們是"},{"start":957.844,"end":969.7,"text":"這個我們再跟他們再溝通我要求要包含這三個問題因為這涉及到我們要落實憲判8號的意旨以及我們要瞭解社會要求安定的這樣的民心向背我們希望什麼時候可以提出來?你們的委託什麼時候可以好?"},{"start":977.933,"end":1002.32,"text":"現在我們是委託那個大學機構在做報告在年底的話他們可以提出期末報告什麼時候年底年底好年底我們想社會都期待我們希望呢在這段時間社會數目大法官是憲判第8號的決策的意思的內容的時候相關要落實的法條相關要進行的配套以及考慮到社會人心的安定的問題我們希望你們盡快把這樣的一個必須的配套"},{"start":1002.76,"end":1010.452,"text":"做跨國比較跟美國各州研究提出一個你要能夠符合台灣社會情境的要求的一個配套好不好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:02:44 - 10:19:37","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155104","gazette":{"lineno":320,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時2分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請司法院黃代理秘書長以及法務部鄭部長，還有衛福部的鄭代理司長。"],["主席：秘書長、部長、司長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好、部長好、司長好。秘書長，剛剛我很欽佩莊委員所說的，憲法第七十八條大法官的解釋是最高的拘束，你同意嘛！好，引述你剛剛的回答，你認為這一次憲判的主要意旨是在嚴格、嚴密宣判死刑跟執行的程序，是不是這樣？大法官的憲判有沒有宣告任何一條規定死刑的條文是違憲的？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：只有說在修法之前的第三百四十八條，唯一死刑的條文……"],["鍾委員佳濱：只有宣告說法條不得定唯一死刑，但並沒有說法條定死刑是違憲，所以從這個角度來講，如果簡單的解釋這次憲判，有沒有去廢死？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們認為當然沒有廢死。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，既然是這樣，我們剛剛聽到有位大委員不斷的對於憲判的意旨提出他個人的看法，這裡我要表達我個人看法，因為誠如剛剛莊委員所揭露的，不只是憲法第七十八條，還有各項憲法釋字的解釋，其實立法院也要遵守憲判跟大法官釋憲的決定，對不對？如果有不同意見，是可以提出憲法訴訟去跟大法官辯論，這也是我們過去8月的時候在憲法法庭看到的，你也看到了嘛！立法委員是可以以釋憲聲請人或者訴訟相對人或關係人，在憲法審判的時候、憲法法庭開審的時候對大法官去進行言詞的交互辯論。所以我們樂見，如果有任何人，不管職務上是不是立法委員，只要他提出憲法訴訟，他可以以相對人或關係人的身分，去跟未來的大法官好好地談一下他對這次憲判要旨的不同意見，但是我希望如果有這樣的主張者，應該先趕快促使我們大法官的人事同意權能夠保證在10月持續下去，不然未來想找大法官在憲法法庭上針鋒相對，恐怕也找不到對手了，你同意這樣的一個看法嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員高見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，請回。接下來我要請教法務部部長，9月20號憲判字第8號說死刑釋憲後有2位受死刑宣告的受刑人將獲非常上訴，為什麼？這2位為什麼可以馬上……"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是憲判……"],["鍾委員佳濱：按麥克風。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這2位是因為那時判決確定的時候，刑法第三百四十八條有關唯一死刑的部分違憲。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，就是剛剛秘書長所說的嘛，另外的35個人有沒有可能有機會提出非常上訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我想總長在調卷……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有可能嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為他們37個都有參與憲法訴訟、參與釋憲嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為那個憲判字第8號的判決是認為他有心智缺陷。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你認為有沒有可能全數都適用憲判意旨，可以聲請救濟呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分還要待檢察總長來審核。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這是檢察總長的權限。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，他的權限。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，這是我們過去死刑案件的執行流程，可能這些被宣告死刑的受刑人在被起訴前就被羈押了，目前他是在入監收容的情況，等候未來執行，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，如果檢察總長認為要提起非常上訴，以落實憲判的意旨，我們看到這個流程圖，如果要提出非常上訴，有可能這個會被駁回，當然就繼續收容，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是未來他如果進行非常上訴，審理後發回更審，就是准予撤銷原判決，法務部會促請他繼續羈押嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們一定會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一定會嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：一定會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一定會嘛，至少37個，任何一個如果未來為了落實憲判意旨，總長認為他符合非常上訴，提出了，法院也接受撤銷原判決，准予他發回更審，你們會促請羈押，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們會要求，我們在最高法院的時候，會促請、會再建議最高法院要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你要促請最高法院羈押，但它可能准……"],["鄭部長銘謙：論告的時候，我們是會要求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你一定會這樣做，但它也有可能駁回，暫時釋放，有可能嗎？有沒有這個可能？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果有這個可能的話，我想我們會依照刑事訴訟法第四百一十六條辦理，我們認為還是要抗告，如果他不押……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，了解，我們來看一下，非常上訴之後如果要發回更審，那麼法院在什麼情況之下可以羈押？一般就是一般羈押，有逃亡之虞；或者他有反覆實行同一犯罪行為，刑訴法第一百零一條之一嘛，只要有這兩種情況，一定會促請法院羈押，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們會建議一定要羈押，即使……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果到時候法院不予羈押，有沒有其他的防逃方式？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，如果他有其他的徒刑要執行，我們一定是先發指揮書，直接就發監執行了，如果……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是說他除了死刑的判決，他還受其他的徒刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果其他的有確定，我們會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你會窮盡一切方式來防止他們離開監獄？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我請問一下，那麼目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人大概是犯什麼罪？殺人、強盜殺人，還有擄人勒贖，其中有8位還涉及性侵殺人，請問一下，根據保安處分執行法第四條，「法院對於應付監護、禁戒、強制治療之人，認為有緊急必要時……」請問「緊急必要時」是誰要提出？由法院來認定，誰要提出？你們認不認為這幾個可以透過包括刑法第九十一條之一，犯性侵、強盜殺人、擄人勒贖可施以強制治療，你們有主張這樣的可能性嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前還在……他已經是待執行的死刑犯……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，我是說未來如果他的原判決被撤銷，如果他非常上訴成功，原判決被撤銷，他要再行更審，你們可以援引刑法第九十一條之一，要求施以強制治療嗎？這是不是一個可行的途徑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是照刑法第九十一條之一的規定來辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是可以的嘛，如果是強制治療，他就不能出來了嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果法院有裁定強制治療，當然一定要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以不一定羈押，就算沒有准予羈押，你們聲請，有緊急必要的時候你們提出，根據第九十一條之一，也可以要求施以強制治療，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個法條的規定是這樣的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是這樣喔，很好！我們再回到一個情況，現在大家在爭議一個問題，如果有可能這些透過非常上訴、符合憲判意旨的，他後來被改判為無期徒刑，那麼社會上有一種呼聲說，要讓他們不得假釋或者終身拘禁，法務部的看法如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：若改判無期徒刑，如果最高法院自為判決的話，它一判決馬上就確定了，我們直接就發監執行了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，如果是無期徒刑……"],["鄭部長銘謙：他如果說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他如果有假釋的規定，大家的看法呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：假釋，我們現在是在研修，我們認為這個是屬於特殊性的一個憲法判決，是以前歷史上從來沒有的，我們有不一樣的思考，我們也是依據憲判的意旨，提出一些……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有要修法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：要修，我們研議修法，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要修，類似這樣的，你們會要求怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們研修，我們認為是排除譬如屬於最重要的故意殺人罪或殺人未遂，這一種屬於情節最嚴重的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果被判無期徒刑，他將受終身拘禁？"],["鄭部長銘謙：無期徒刑我們認為要排除。"],["鍾委員佳濱：排除？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是要排除第七十七條第一項排除假釋的適用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，排除假釋，未來修法也在立法院處理，在修法通過之後，現在這37位適不適用？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們認為要重新適用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：要適用新法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要適用新法，也就是說，如果他們在立法院修法前，照你的意思在完成修法之前，這37位中有任何一位經過發回更審之後獲判為無期徒刑，那麼未來修法通過之後，還是要適用新法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：新法是新法，我們是要研修，我們是比較……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們是這樣主張的，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是認為適用新法的規定較為妥適。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們是這樣主張，也就是說，未來無期徒刑不得假釋，如果這一條法規、法條修法上路了，那麼對於審判中的案子，或者已經判決的案子都一起適用，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個假釋的制度還是適用新法，我們認為較為合理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我了解你的態度了，就如剛剛莊委員說的，你可以有所立場、有所表達，但是我們大家一起來討論，好不好？往下看，那麼現在如果判無期徒刑，這37位假設後來重新受無期徒刑宣告，他過去這段時間的收容可以扣抵刑期嗎？因為這些人很多都被押很久了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，目前是要執行25年，才達到假釋的門檻。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這37個人當中，有沒有在執行死刑前已經被收容很久的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個收容是很久，但是我們反對，我們不認為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：收容不可抵扣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不能抵扣，不能折抵刑期。"],["鍾委員佳濱：假設後來他被宣告無期徒刑……"],["鄭部長銘謙：發監執行……"],["鍾委員佳濱：從執行開始才起算？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們認為是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：過去的不算？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們認為是不算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們認為是不算的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：收容的期限是不能折抵的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：收容期限不能算，必須從重新判決宣告無期徒刑開始執行才算，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那就是執行的問題，在執行的問題裡面，我們看到假釋的規定，包括刑法第七十七條，有悛悔實據的才可以聲請，而且監獄行刑法是你們主管的、你們來審查的，你們要從嚴審核，有重大暴力的就不可以，重大危害的也不可以，出獄後會引發社會不安的也不可以，這些從嚴審查的權力，是不是在你們法務部手上？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這個也根據監獄行刑法第一百一十六條的規定，以及受刑人假釋實施辦法第三條的規範來做一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有權力來決定、判斷，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這部分我們是不是請矯正署？"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，我繼續問。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你怎麼判斷有悛悔實據？強盜、殺人等案件是不是應該從嚴審查？這是政策，你可以回答。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我想直接從政策面，不從執行面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是要求從嚴審核。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是這三個條件要從嚴審查。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，從95年實行這個新制以來，我們這些還沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些人從來沒有符合假釋規定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，沒有符合假釋規定的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們從嚴審查？好，這個社會在看，因為社會對於目前已經宣告死刑的這37位受刑人很關注；也對於未來如果有機會，他們獲得非常上訴，未來的重新更審或判決，大家也在關注；對於未來他們是否再進去監獄裡面繼續受刑，也非常關注。好，我們接著往下看，但是有一個問題，憲判字第8號判決的主文當中說，受死刑之諭知者，就算這些受死刑的諭知者有精神障礙或心智缺陷，剛剛我們的沈委員問過了，你要由精神科醫師來做精神鑑定，他可以聲請嗎？這些受死刑宣告的受刑人可以主動聲請嗎？如何來鑑定受刑能力？他們有沒有權利？這37位有沒有權利？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他們可以主張。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們可以主張，那誰去找精神科醫師幫他們做判斷？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個是屬於心衛審理中這部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個是審理，一個是受刑，受刑跟審理都一樣，我現在談的是受刑。來，我們請心健司司長，您覺得站在醫界的立場來講，心理界、精神醫師會接受這樣的委託來判斷受死刑宣告的受刑人，一旦他沒有精神上的障礙可受死刑，醫師能夠說他現在是符合受刑的能力，你們會找到這樣醫師嗎？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：跟委員報告，因為我們現在精神科醫師接受這個鑑定的囑託，要不就是法院來囑託，要不……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是審理中的受審能力嘛！"],["鄭代理司長淑心：對，要不就是檢察官來囑託。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那就是看行為的時候有沒有能力嘛！"],["鄭代理司長淑心：我們的精神科醫師最主要是利用他的醫學專業知識，如果是在行為時的話，就看他當下的程度是不是有精神障礙。"],["鍾委員佳濱：司長，我要跟你說，我如果是精神科醫師，涉及到行為時有沒有能力，因為後來怎麼判是法院的事情，所以精神科醫師敢判他行為時有沒有精神上的障礙、有沒有行為能力，他受審時有沒有受審能力、能不能理解現在在審理什麼，精神科醫師也沒有罣礙，因為最後的結果不知道；但是一旦結果知道了做死刑宣告，你一旦認定他無精神障礙、有受刑能力，那認定有受刑能力的時候，他要執行死刑喔！你覺得作為一個醫師來講，他能夠承受這樣的壓力，做出這樣的決定嗎？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：有關於執行時這個個案到底有沒有受刑能力的話，其實這個部分的鑑定，精神科醫師最主要是要去鑑定這個個案他是不是能夠理解死刑判決的理由跟執行，他到底了不了解這個部分，所以我們的精神科醫師主要是在鑑定這一個部分，來提供他醫學的專業……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是說他理解這個受刑是基於什麼理由，他理解。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：他理不理解是我們鑑定的重點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果他被關到老人癡呆，他不能理解，那就永遠不能受刑，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：我們精神科醫師最主要是提供他的醫學專業知識。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝司長，不為難你。部長，了解了喔！現在憲判的意旨我們要落實，因為大法官權威的解釋，我們行政機關、立法機關受其拘束，但是執行的時候會發生這些問題，要預為綢繆，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，有兩個部分，請主席再給我一點時間。目前我們所了解各國的執行狀況，完全廢死的占將近六成，112個國家；最近5年無執行的是23個國家，占12%；保留，也就是說目前雖然沒有執行死刑，但是過去5年有執行死刑的。臺灣目前是在哪一個位置？臺灣現在是在這55啦！簡單講，完全廢死的國家將近六成；沒有完全廢死的有將近四成，臺灣是在這四成，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這是從國家來看，但是我們來看一下大家都很喜歡援引的美國各州的死刑，美國共50個州，完全廢死的是藍色的，有23個州，不到一半；已經停止的有3個州；保留的是紅色的24個州。換言之，在美國以各州的立法來講，不到一半是廢死，其他超過一半還是有死刑的存在，這你了解嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有去做過調查研究，這些跟臺灣處境相同的美國各州或世界各國，對於本席剛剛所提出的問題，他們採取什麼樣的作法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，根據這個問題，我們已經有委託研究了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我要問最後一個問題了，請法務部跟司法院研究主要國家的法律制度，包括美國的各州，對於受死刑宣告者受刑能力的精神鑑定，他們如何處理？尤其是美國那六成沒有廢死的州。第二個，重刑犯申請假釋的程序，他們如何從嚴，防止這些重刑犯在一個不當的程序之下回到社會去，擾亂社會、影響安定？第三個，無期徒刑不得假釋的制度，這六成的州或這四成的國家，他們怎麼去設計的？部長，你們的委託研究有包括這三個問題嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們會再跟他們溝通。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要求要包含這三個問題，因為這涉及到我們要落實憲判字第8號的意旨，以及我們要了解社會要求安定這樣的民心向背，什麼時候可以提出來？你們的委託什麼時候可以好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在我們是委託大學機構……"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候？你不用告訴我誰做的，什麼時候可以好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：在年底可以提出期末報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候？"],["鄭部長銘謙：年底。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，年底，社會都期待，我們希望在這段時間社會矚目大法官憲判字第8號決策意旨內容的時候，相關要落實的法條、相關要進行的配套，以及考慮到社會人心安定的問題，我們希望你們儘快把這樣必須的配套，做跨國比較、跟美國各州研究，提出比較能夠符合臺灣社會情境要求的一個配套，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請謝龍介委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:09:46","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:17:23+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155102","委員名稱":"林俊憲","duration":586,"start_time":"2024-10-07T10:07:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4935a2d61cb0465941dbb8e3b5ddc0e7677772a8a89b87e0382f61d29bd310f8b835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.49034375,"end":4.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.2115937500000005,"end":7.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.793468750000001,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.020968750000002,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.78846875,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.14659375,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.16721875,"end":21.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.21784375,"end":19.926593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.68159375,"end":23.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.820343750000003,"end":26.085968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.085968750000003,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.32221875,"end":26.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.24159375,"end":29.511593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.511593750000003,"end":30.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.33846875,"end":30.625343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.625343750000003,"end":30.675968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.41409375,"end":33.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.25784375,"end":33.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.04659375,"end":35.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.61596875,"end":37.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.510343750000004,"end":39.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.67034375,"end":43.838468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.040968750000005,"end":44.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.580968750000004,"end":52.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.664093750000006,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.22409375,"end":63.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.00409375000001,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.5690937500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我們先請翁柏忠主委好 翁主委委員好主委好那個 有人爆料說你那個送禮用廠商去買單這是怎麼回事"},{"start":30.779,"end":56.062,"text":"好 謝謝委員給我這個澄清的機會那首先我有發新聞稿澄清沒有這件絕無此事另外我也主動的將相關的單據還有整個的過程送給政風去調查及說明原委那特資會的使用都是合乎法令的"},{"start":57.063,"end":63.351,"text":"所以這個是合法啦齁我先請教一下你到底是買這個海產送誰呃呃快證"},{"start":67.574,"end":91.315,"text":"那個這個海產都是全部送給我們的同仁就是在年結期送給你們NCC裡面的同仁我們NCC的同仁那你這個主管不錯啊會買禮物送給同仁我坦白講我的特製會不多但是三結的時候我們會買一些水果或者是一些農特產送給我們的同仁"},{"start":92.301,"end":114.153,"text":"OK因為坦白講我本來不知道你送誰想說奇怪NCC到底要送禮物給誰結果是送給同仁其實用你自己的特資費送給同仁我是覺得這一點還不錯啦是可以給你鼓勵啦那當然就是說其他的部分就是一切依法嘛所以你就是有照你特資費那個支出都有憑證嘛"},{"start":115.574,"end":133.53,"text":"報告委員有這件事情我有信心我經得起考驗絕對沒有不法希望對同仁好的態度可以繼續下去同仁感同身受還不錯另外我請教一下主委數位港就是臺灣"},{"start":140.14,"end":158.957,"text":"所有的海南登陸站都在北部南部只有一個仿山那量不夠那如果說我們高雄將來要發展我們的AI首都就是我們希望高雄是一個非常條件很好的地方那數位港NCC有沒有什麼概念就是設海南登陸站由誰來設、怎麼設、什麼時候設"},{"start":162.214,"end":175.911,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個海嵐的登陸站其實在台灣就像委員講的都是集中在北部但是在南部確實也有需要那我想說上次也有討論到在興達港"},{"start":178.734,"end":205.078,"text":"就是附近的那個就是煤船進來的那個渠道是從國安的角度從任性的角度從將來我們所有的超級電腦資料中心需要的角度那這個角度是不是高雄需要設一個海南登陸站有沒有這個必要南部確實是有需要因為這樣分散這樣子假使是說你那個海南登陸站都是集中在北部的某些點沒有分散的話"},{"start":205.618,"end":222.36,"text":"那這樣確實在任性發展的角度是所以就是從NCC的角度是100%贊成我們南部設海南登陸站因為要發展AI你一定要有海南進來而且要有規模的IDC進來所以NCC會贊成會幫忙"},{"start":223.882,"end":245.116,"text":"NCC是站在因為電管法上面有一個公眾電信那個網路查驗及使用管理辦法我們會來協助重點是誰可以來設這個海覽登陸站這個部分的話就是要電信公司他假使願意提出申請電信公司是民間的"},{"start":246.516,"end":267.813,"text":"其實這個部分有很多的方式啦也是可以三家電信公司合資不過這個是關鍵基礎設施海嵐登陸站是關鍵基礎設施一定要就是說要是要本國的電信事業來ON比較好那關鍵基礎設施韌性的發展那到底是誰可以來主導"},{"start":269.747,"end":290.276,"text":"是NCC可以來主導還是數法部可以來主導因為這個NCC是監理單位這個有牽涉到就是整個AI產業的發展那或許是NCC管準不準嘛對不對我們就是那個Landing Station那個海欄站而已是不是請部長那個數法部部長就說這個到底可不可以設"},{"start":295.083,"end":300.563,"text":"那個 報告委員我是樂觀其成啦齁 這個從開展重新拉上 跟部長報告我現在不知道誰來設阿"},{"start":301.857,"end":327.461,"text":"那個我們過去的例子像那個登陸站過去都是我有去查一下過去大概都是由電信公司提出申請然後去建設然後經過NCC核准那它建好以後我們速劃過去我們現在從國家的角度來思考啦就是它是韌性建設它是關鍵基礎設施國家的角度必須要有設從這個角度來看那如果民間都沒有人主動那我政府應該怎麼做"},{"start":327.99,"end":355.978,"text":"所以那個報告委員就我有去調查那個各式各樣的可能的方法那有一個方法就是那個我們那個就是像其實我那時候有建議說其實我們看到一個比如說像高雄有一個叫做戀愛5G的雅灣的5G這種方式這個model其實很好的model就是說建一個園區然後用5G IoT的這樣一個model去建那以這個模範是由高雄市政府提出這樣一個計畫高雄市政府提出"},{"start":356.198,"end":359.718,"text":"那如果高雄市政府說配合中央那中央有沒有想法"},{"start":361.641,"end":388.659,"text":"因為這個經費還是要申請公建預算所以要有單位去申請公建預算那個我現在跟部長報告啦這個是關鍵基礎設施這個是韌性建設這個是有關於國安跟資安甚至將來所有的AI的發展這對國家來講是重要的對不對完全同意那總是國家有個單位我說有人願意承擔來push這件事情"},{"start":391.109,"end":404.317,"text":"報告委員就是這個剛剛我講過就是這個東西這個東西本來就是應該要建設但是應該一起大家一起合作去做那我們願意來協調所以吼那個跟部長報告我現在問了很多單位"},{"start":405.497,"end":430.674,"text":"蘇貨部說願意協調 OKNCC說願意幫忙 OK市政委覺得這個重要 OK那港務公司也覺得這個需要他們的地他們也OK然後那個台電也認為說在我興達廠這裡電量充足是全國最好的一個場所也OK現在沒有人掛鈴鐺誰來掛鈴鐺誰來主導這件事那我從中央的角度就是說我今天假設啦"},{"start":431.769,"end":455.248,"text":"那個總統問你說 那個書法部你來主導 或者是有誰可以來主導 你要怎麼回答這個報告委員 就是我想我們再來開個會協調 看哪個單位出來出來 你知道我的意思嗎對那個我問你 你是可以說這是誰負責誰負責 看誰那如果總統問你說這個是國家中央政策 一定要有那書法部的部長應該怎麼樣來協助承擔來幫忙"},{"start":458.547,"end":474.701,"text":"就是我們出來就是來協調各單位,然後...是不是?對,要協調...所以部長你懂我意思嗎?了解了解,但是就是說...我問你,你的回答的方式就是,這個大家都可以但是如果總統問你說這是國家重要建設,一定要做那從數話部的角度要怎麼協助?"},{"start":476.035,"end":503.627,"text":"那我們就是剛剛講就是依照過去的過去那個海南上岸一開始都是電信公司去主導沒關係如果假設啦總統說那這件事就拜託你幫忙協調成功這樣子你可以答應嗎我們就我們當然會會會盡力部長你懂我意思嗎因為我現在其實我已經很努力找了很多單位了已經萬事俱備只欠東風啦那東風呢如果是有人有肩膀把他扛下來這個東這個就是東風"},{"start":506.314,"end":533.52,"text":"否則如果都沒有人扛下來就是東風無力百花殘所以報告委員我們在就是說在近期我們會再來好不好再開一個會拜託這是我說的再說一遍這是國家重要建設對不對完全同意這是關鍵基礎測試對不對這是對國家韌性發展很重要對不對那這個其實對於甚至在國內的AI競技力到國外的競爭力都很重要對不對好"},{"start":534.78,"end":557.316,"text":"總統如果跟你說阿這個很重要勒你對不對覺得對不對對嘛那現在沒有人做應該怎麼做就是就是說依照我剛講的那個我們過去調查過去的建立的方式拜託那個部長因為我找不到人承擔我們在這個其實我剛講的最合適那不管我們中央單位怎麼協調就拜託部長來主導這樣OK嗎"},{"start":559.091,"end":583.61,"text":"我們再來協調可以你來幫忙協調到這件事情成功吧不然我現在你看我做了這麼多的努力已經各個單位我都問了走了一圈了啦那最後我就還在找到底誰可以把這件事情承擔下來那這個對台灣對城市對將來國家的發展都一定非常的好而且也非常的重要但是就是要有人做好不好"},{"start":585.11,"end":607.956,"text":"這個拜託部長來主導協調啦好不好好那最後還有一個小事齁聯電、偽創、台說化都受到駭客的攻擊那這個在也是治安的問題那速發部有辦法處理嗎現在就是我們有觀察到這樣一個攻擊因為攻擊從政府攻擊開始擴散到民間齁那"},{"start":608.876,"end":629.245,"text":"我剛有講過就是我們第一個有所謂情資分享我們有聯防的機制然後公司協力的聯防機制所以也歡迎就是希望各個單位民間公司來加入我們這樣一個聯防的所謂設的這樣一個機制能夠分享這樣攻擊情資遇到攻擊的時候我們會提供一些情資跟協助來分散這些攻擊的太陽"},{"start":629.705,"end":654.678,"text":"不過目前為止因為這公職所謂的DDOS阻斷式攻擊其實目前的傷害都不大而且很快就能夠恢復所以大概目前是沒有什麼資料外洩或是被嚴重入侵的事件不過我們在持續在關注啦但是治安還是要大家一起努力那當然就是說我也希望說趁這個機會講說我們有一個很重要的法案叫做治安法的修法這個法其實對"},{"start":656.239,"end":675.913,"text":"對我們在要求民間業者的那個資安人員的安排跟培訓很重要所以希望大院能夠儘速通過資安法讓我們有法能夠去監督這些民間機關OK那我想就是兩個角度嘛一個角度立法院我們自己會努力希望我們各黨派都可以支持那第二個角度就是說其實站在"},{"start":676.673,"end":676.773,"text":"許智傑"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:55:39 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10:07:17","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155101","gazette":{"lineno":289,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（9時55分）謝謝主席，我們先請翁柏宗主委。"],["主席：請翁主委。"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：主委好。有人爆料說你送禮用廠商去買單，這是怎麼回事？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：謝謝委員給我這個澄清的機會，首先，我有發新聞稿澄清絕無此事，另外，我也主動將相關單據還有整個過程送政風調查及說明原委，特支費的使用都是合乎法令的。"],["許委員智傑：所以這個是合法。我先請教一下，你到底是買海產送誰？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：饋贈海產全部都是送給我們的同仁。"],["許委員智傑：送給你們NCC裡面的同仁？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：我們NCC的同仁。"],["許委員智傑：你這個主管不錯，會買禮物送給同仁。"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：我坦白講，我的特支費不多，但是三節的時候，我們會買一些水果或是一些農特產送給我們的同仁。"],["許委員智傑：OK，坦白講，我本來不知道你送誰，我想說奇怪NCC到底要送禮物給誰，結果是送給同仁，你用自己的特支費送給同仁，我覺得這一點還不錯，是可以給你鼓勵，當然其他的部分要一切依法，所以特支費的支出都有憑證嗎？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：報告委員，有，這件事情我有信心，我禁得起考驗，絕對沒有不法。"],["許委員智傑：OK，我希望對同仁好的這個態度可以繼續下去，讓同仁感同身受還不錯。另外，請教主委有關於數位港的問題，臺灣所有的海纜登陸站都在北部，南部只有一個枋山，所以量不夠，如果高雄將來希望發展成為AI首都，高雄是一個條件很好的地方，針對數位港NCC有沒有什麼概念，海纜登陸站由誰來設、怎麼設、什麼時候設？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：跟委員報告，其實海纜登陸站在臺灣就像委員講的都是集中在北部，但是南部確實也有需要，我們上次也有討論到，在興達港附近沒船進來的渠道上面……"],["許委員智傑：這是從國安的角度、從韌性的角度。"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：對。"],["許委員智傑：從將來我們所有超級電腦資料中心需要的角度，從這個角度來看，高雄是不是需要設一個海纜登陸站，有沒有這個必要？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：南部確實是有需要。"],["許委員智傑：有這個必要？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：因為這樣可以分散，假設海纜登陸站都是集中在北部的某些點，沒有分散的話確實在……"],["許委員智傑：從韌性發展也不好。"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：從韌性發展的角度，南部是有需要。"],["許委員智傑：所以NCC的角度是100%贊成南部設海纜登陸站？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：因為要發展AI一定要有海纜進來，而且要有規模的IDC機房。"],["許委員智傑：所以NCC會贊成、會幫忙？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：站在NCC的角度，電管法有公眾電信網路查驗及使用管理辦法，我們會來協助。"],["許委員智傑：主委，我們把時間縮短，重點是誰可以來設海纜登陸站？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：這個部分電信公司假使願意提出申請……"],["許委員智傑：電信公司是民間的。"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：其實這個部分有很多的方式，也是可以三家電信公司合資，不過這個是關鍵基礎設施，海纜登陸站是關鍵基礎設施。"],["許委員智傑：對！"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：一定是要本國電信事業來own比較好。"],["許委員智傑：關鍵基礎設施韌性的發展，到底是誰可以來主導？是NCC可以來主導，還是數發部可以來主導？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：因為NCC是監理單位，這個有牽涉到整個AI產業的發展，或許是……"],["許委員智傑：NCC是管准不准嘛，對不對？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：我們就是landing station、那個海纜站而已。"],["許委員智傑：是不是請數發部部長，這個到底可不可以設？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我是樂觀其成，這個海纜從興達上來……"],["許委員智傑：跟部長報告，我現在就不知道由誰來設啊？"],["黃部長彥男：我們過去的例子，像那個登陸站，我有去查一下，過去大概都是由電信公司提出申請，然後去建設，經過NCC核准，當它建好以後我們數發部去做……"],["許委員智傑：我們現在從國家角度來思考，它是韌性建設、它是關鍵基礎設施，從國家角度必須要設立，從這個角度來看，如果民間都沒有人主動，那政府應該怎麼做？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我有去調查各式各樣的可能方法，我那時候有建議，其實我們看到一個方法，像高雄有一個叫亞灣5G的這種方式，這個model就是很好的model，就是建一個園區，用5GAIoT這樣的model去建，這個模產是由高雄市政府提出這樣的計畫。"],["許委員智傑：高雄市政府提出？"],["黃部長彥男：對，然後經過……"],["許委員智傑：如果高雄市政府說配合中央，那中央有沒有想法？"],["黃部長彥男：因為這個經費還是要申請公建預算，所以要有單位去申請公建預算。"],["許委員智傑：我現在跟部長報告，這個是關鍵基礎設施。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["許委員智傑：這個是韌性建設，這是有關於國安跟資安，甚至將來所有的AI發展，這對國家來講是重要的，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：我完全同意。"],["許委員智傑：國家總是要有個單位，有人願意承擔來push這件事情？"],["黃部長彥男：對！報告委員，剛剛我講過，這個東西本來就是應該要建設，但是應該大家一起合作去做，我們願意來協調……"],["許委員智傑：所以跟部長報告，我現在問了很多單位，數發部說願意協調，OK！NCC說願意幫忙，OK！市政府也覺得這個重要，OK！港務公司也覺得這個需要他們的地，他們也OK，然後台電也認為在興達廠這裡電量充足，是全國最好的一個場所也OK，現在沒有人掛鈴鐺，誰來掛鈴鐺？誰來主導這件事？從中央的角度，我今天假設總統問你由數發部來主導，或者是有誰可以來主導，你要怎麼回答？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們想我們再來開個會協調，看哪個單位出來書面申請。"],["許委員智傑：部長，你知道我意思嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["許委員智傑：我問你，你是可以說這是誰負責、誰負責，看由誰；如果總統問你這個是國家中央建設，一定要有，數發部部長應該怎麼樣來協助承擔、來幫忙？"],["黃部長彥男：我們就是出來協調各單位，然後……"],["許委員智傑：是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：對，要協調……"],["許委員智傑：部長，你懂我意思嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：瞭解、瞭解，但就是說這個案子……"],["許委員智傑：我問你，你回答的方式就是這個大家都可以，但是如果總統問你這是國家重要建設，一定要做，從數發部的角度要怎麼協助？"],["黃部長彥男：我們剛剛講就是依照過去海纜上岸，一開始都是電信公司去主導。"],["許委員智傑：沒關係，假設總統說這件事情就拜託你幫忙協調成功，這樣子你可以答應嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們當然會盡力來做。"],["許委員智傑：部長，你懂我意思嗎？其實我已經很努力找很多單位了，已經萬事俱備，只欠東風啦！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["許委員智傑：東風呢？如果是有人、有肩膀把它扛下來，這個就是東風，否則如果都沒人扛下來，就是東風無力百花殘。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，近期我們會再來開一個會，看其他……"],["許委員智傑：好不好？我再說一遍，這是國家重要建設，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：完全同意。"],["許委員智傑：這是關鍵基礎設施，對不對？這對國家韌性發展很重要的，對不對？甚至這對國內的AI競爭力到國外的競爭力都很重要，對不對？好！總統如果跟你說這個很重要，你覺得對不對？對嘛！現在沒有人做，應該怎麼做？"],["黃部長彥男：就是依照我剛講的，我們調查過去的建設方式會去協調。"],["許委員智傑：好不好？拜託部長，因為我找不到人承擔。"],["黃部長彥男：其實我剛剛講的……"],["許委員智傑：不管中央單位怎麼協調，拜託部長來主導，這樣OK嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們再來協調，可以。"],["許委員智傑：你來幫忙協調到這件事情成功嘛！不然，你看我做了這麼多的努力，各個單位我都已經走了一圈了啦！最後我還在找，到底誰可以把這件事情承擔下來？這個對臺灣、對城市、對將來國家發展都一定非常的好，而且也非常的重要，但就是要有人做，好不好？這個拜託部長來主導協調，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們再跟委員請益。"],["許委員智傑：最後還有一個小事，聯電、緯創、台塑化都受到駭客攻擊，這個也是資安問題，數發部有辦法處理嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們有觀察到這樣的攻擊，因為攻擊從政府攻擊開始擴散到民間，我剛剛有講過，第一個我們有所謂的情資分享，有公私協力的聯防機制，所以希望也歡迎各個單位、民間公司來加入我們這樣的聯防，作為所謂的service機制，能夠分享攻擊情資，遇到攻擊的時候，我們會提供一些情資跟協助，來分享這些攻擊的態樣。不過目前為止，因為這些攻擊都是所謂的DDoS阻斷式攻擊，其實目前的傷損害都不大，而且很快就能夠恢復，所以大概目前是沒有什麼資料外洩，或是被嚴重入侵的事件，不過我們持續在關注，但資安還是要大家一起努力。","當然我也希望趁這個機會講我們有一個很重要的法案叫作資安法的修法，這個法其實對我們在要求民間業者資安人員的安排跟培訓很重要，所以希望大院能夠儘速通過資安法，讓我們有法能夠去監督這些民間機關……"],["許委員智傑：OK，我想這是兩個角度嘛！一個角度立法院我們自己會努力，希望各黨派都可以支持；第二個角度，其實站在國家的角度，不管是防國家所有的單位被駭客攻擊，或者是民間我們可以幫助它的，數發部畢竟是全國這部分的龍頭，希望能夠再多著力，減少國家或者是我們的產業受到傷害，請數發法部繼續努力。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員，也請黃部長針對剛剛那個第一項，這麼久的事情，你要召集相關單位提出具體的一個說法，然後給許智傑委員，謝謝。","接下來有請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","游顥","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","陳雪生","徐富癸","洪孟楷","李坤城","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","郭國文","林月琴","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、\n內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00001"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:10:35","end_time":"2024-10-07T09:55:27+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155100","委員名稱":"林國成","duration":635,"start_time":"2024-10-07T09:44:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4939904dedac4f4a854bb8e3b5ddc0e7677772a8a89b87e03824afa53514610baff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.7897187500000005,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.40971875,"end":8.282843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.56534375,"end":10.341593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.45534375,"end":12.653468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.51409375,"end":14.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.134093750000002,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.85534375,"end":17.496593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.96909375,"end":30.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.50284375,"end":33.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.494093750000005,"end":42.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.56846875,"end":46.673468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.736593750000004,"end":48.900968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.54221875,"end":62.822843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.71721875,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.37096875,"end":68.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.31534375000001,"end":71.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.20971875000001,"end":72.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.57659375,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.88846875,"end":76.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.06971875,"end":76.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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抽水機也無法運作 淹水的風險就增加那所以我真的認為在沿海地區 特別是這樣的狀況下的時候 其實要思考防災型的這個地下化颱風幾乎 台灣是每年幾乎都遇到的問題啦 像這樣子遇到這樣的牆台、中台直接進到了台灣 進來的時候 那幾乎非常大"},{"start":143.467,"end":165.034,"text":"那如果這個遇失可能發生的狀況的話我認為其實未來應該在朝這個方向來推過去的時候我們你看到小港醫院旁的超商這個全部掃進去這個超商整個像被炸過一樣包括貨櫃被吹起來我想影片也都有看到整個被風吹起來包括這個一個里長的服務處整個全部掀掉這是其中一個很多類似這樣的"},{"start":166.694,"end":192.726,"text":"這種強風的裝下的時候對於地方造成的災害相當那停電如果我們盡量走向地下化的時候可以大幅的減少我希望經濟部今天部長沒有來我希望經濟部回去思考一下重新跟院裡面來報在2017年到2020年的時候我們有替了一個70億的一個防災型的電纜地下化蘇院長過去在平和公路也做了地下化也很好的一個成效我們希望"},{"start":193.186,"end":206.48,"text":"做防災的角度對沿岸沿海地區受風面大的地區你有注意到幾乎最受創最重的幾乎都是靠海的這邊的第一線在擋那個風的都是這一線這個部分優先來做處理可以嗎"},{"start":207.778,"end":234.709,"text":"我們就會請台電這邊來研議好不好我請研議啦好不好兩個禮拜內給我一份報告好不好就是說能不能規劃朝這個方向我當然知道台電財務上我也希望在接下來的兩千億的預算支持台電之後該做的事情還是要持續來做好不好過去這2017年到2020年這個我認為70億的成效相當的好我希望持續來做但是做當然以沿海地區就是比較受到第一個受封面最強的"},{"start":236.39,"end":263.629,"text":"這個有做跟沒做差很多啦這次看從林源大寮整個被折斷我認為那個其實是需要繼續進行的好不好是請兩個禮拜演繹給我一份報告好接下來我想請一下那個國發會好嗎那個主委國發會的主委這一次的部分其實重創啦17級的強風台灣大概也是創了有史以來的紀錄高雄港有沒有什麼樣的專案的重建或者是對人民的專案的補助計畫會來推動的"},{"start":266.391,"end":266.749,"text":"呃"},{"start":267.219,"end":296.217,"text":"因為過去這部分都會我們都會有這個我這樣好了我直接建議主委因為這一次地方政府其實受創很重包括現在還有很多的教室甚至很多校舍甚至很多的一些基礎建設受到了很大的影響這個陸續都會出來了那我希望國發會作為整個內閣的小團隊裡面的一個大腦的角色我希望你整體去整理一下思考一下在兩個禮拜內提出來是不是有一個整體性的"},{"start":296.917,"end":325.244,"text":"硬體的、整體的對於地方政府的協助包括這些的重建的規劃甚至於整個思考每個縣市的補貼方式、補助方式不太一樣兩個禮拜內是不是整體研議一下給我一份報告好嗎?好 這個我我下午會跟院報告好不好 因為現在災情才陸續出來而已因為有些東西受創我今天看了有幾個學校部分現在今天因為學校陸續傳回來了一些"},{"start":326.164,"end":342.663,"text":"你剛剛我看到這個強風這麼強的狀況屋頂貨櫃連整個都吹掉了所以其實受創甚至有些校園也受到影響我希望做一個整合性的統合的工作就一個專案的部分來做整體的話兩個禮拜先跟院長報告一下給我們一份報告跟規劃好嗎"},{"start":343.604,"end":368.949,"text":"好的好接下來我想要問一下這個剛剛其實我看你的報告裡面明年預估今年機場率會達到4%我也相當的包括我們現在的出口各方面都表現相好那我想問的是如果我們現在的總預算遲遲無法來付為來審查對這樣的經濟發展會不會產生影響這一定會有一定的影響怎麼樣的影響如果遲遲無法進行的話對於"},{"start":370.287,"end":385.009,"text":"因為我們各項政策會難以推動如果它延遲的話我們的推動進度也會受到影響那會有什麼樣重大影響如果遲遲無法進行這些事項的話如果遲遲無法進行的話呢應該是我們所有的計畫都無法實施吧"},{"start":385.595,"end":406.003,"text":"那所以包括這些經濟成長率等等都可能就不一定打到這樣的目標是嗎?對,我們就會有困難就會有困難我希望這件事情還是要清楚的跟那個就是說立法院認為還是要進來做審議有意見的該凍結該刪除的可以來討論但是全部把擋住讓整個建設無法來推動我想這不是國家之福了是的"},{"start":406.263,"end":421.317,"text":"好,再來我想請教一下我看到你的報告裡面另外有一個是這個到中歐、中東包括跟中東歐的部分做一些雙邊的合作我看到蔡英文總統這個月份要到捷克去做參訪"},{"start":422.598,"end":443.033,"text":"我也認為其實在我們裡面如果國家對我們是友善的我們應該更積極來推動就是整體的國家利益是一體的那如果比如說像捷克是一個很好的突破點的時候他對我們非常友善的時候其實我認為在未來經貿上應該有更多的合作讓我們的整個國家的整體是整合在一起發展的主委認同這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":443.753,"end":466.301,"text":"是的 因為我自己也去利用暑假期間也去了一趟捷克、立陶宛這些地方的確兩國的關係目前是大家關係非常好我們都可以見到最高層也當然一定是非常好才有可能卸任的總統有辦法用到這樣得到高度的禮遇方式去那我也希望對我們相當友善的國家我們在經貿上給予更多的合作希望讓兩國之間的情誼更好是 這些都在進行中"},{"start":466.801,"end":487.538,"text":"最後請教一下日本在今年有宣布的四大金融特區那台灣現在有亞洲資產管理中心高雄現在權利在爭取當中?主委高雄有沒有機會來爭取到?第一個這個是監管會的權責但是就我了解高雄因為也具備了相當得天獨厚的條件這也在他的選項之一"},{"start":488.855,"end":513.907,"text":"所以主委大力來促成好不好高雄所具備包括現在所有的一些條件的部分不管是在整個資金包括我們的經濟發展包括所有的其實高雄的雅灣其實具備相當好一個條件那東京我們看到日本其實有四個地點在同步在做啦那我認為其實高雄絕對也是一個很適當的一個地點我希望主委大力來協助來支持好嗎好一定好謝謝謝謝財政委員"},{"start":515.989,"end":518.571,"text":"這個亞洲資產中心在南高雄也可以北高雄也可以"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:05:21 - 10:14:02","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部次長就「我國政府對新創及中小企業扶植政策執行狀況與未來精進措施（含政策、人才、法制、稅制、資金、區域平衡等六大面向）」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155099","gazette":{"lineno":211,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時5分）好，謝謝主席，請經濟部何次長。"],["主席：請經濟部何次長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：次長，先請教一下，高雄的電力全部恢復了嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，今天凌晨2點35分左右大概整個都已經復電了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：全數復電了？"],["邱委員議瑩：還沒啦……"],["何次長晉滄：對，復電。"],["邱委員議瑩：大家都還在辛苦整理……"],["何次長晉滄：應該這樣講，可能家戶……"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，再查清楚啦！但是我認為，其實到昨天下午的時候，我看你們最新報出來的數字，林園、仁武、大寮跟大樹還有818戶，但是剛剛次長說清晨已經全部復電。"],["何次長晉滄：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但我講的是經過了4天才復電，我認為其實還是有努力的空間。次長，有沒有什麼樣的精進方式減少這些人民受停電的困擾？"],["何次長晉滄：當然我們檢討這次是因為風力非常大所致，17級風，許多電桿，還有路樹倒塌，去影響到整個電力的供給，所以未來我們也會檢討電桿是不是要移置，或是樹木修剪的部分可能要請地方……"],["賴委員瑞隆：會不會朝向地下化的方式來處理？"],["何次長晉滄：地下化的部分因為要考量幾個因素，我們會請台電……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你看這一次林園的風災，17級強風把電線桿吹斷，港區是17級，也許它是13、14級，不知道，但是它可以把一根電桿吹斷。過去在2017年的時候我們做了一些防災型的地下化，那時候沿海地區我們做了很多，包括小港、前鎮，包括旗津都在做，其實只要做了就會產生比較好的效果，所以恢復的速度就相當快。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果沒有電的話，就沒辦法用水，水沒辦法進來；沒有電的話，抽水機也無法運作，淹水的風險也就增加。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我真的認為，在沿海地區，特別是這樣的狀況下，其實要思考防災型的地下化，颱風是臺灣幾乎每年都會遇到的問題，像遇到這樣的強颱、中颱直接進到臺灣，進來的時候幾乎都非常大，如果預知可能發生的狀況，我認為其實未來應該再朝這個方向來推。你看小港醫院旁的超商全部都掃進去，超商整個像被炸過一樣，包括貨櫃被吹起來，我想影片也都有看到，整個被風吹起來，包括一個里長的服務處也整個全部掀掉，這只是其中一個，還有很多類似這樣的情形，在這種強風的狀況下，對於地方造成的災害相當大。至於停電，如果我們儘量走向地下化，就可以大幅的減少。今天經濟部長沒有來，但我希望經濟部回去思考一下，重新跟院裡面報告，在2017年到2020年的時候我們有一個70億的防災型電纜地下化，蘇院長過去在屏鵝公路也做了地下化，也有很好的成效，我們希望以防災的角度，對沿岸、沿海地區、受風面大的地區，你有注意到受創最重的幾乎都是靠海這邊的，第一線在擋風的都是這一線，這個部分優先來處理，可以嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：我們會請台電研議。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請研議，兩個禮拜內給我一份報告好不好？就是能不能規劃朝這個方向？我當然知道台電在財務上的狀況，我也希望接下來的兩千億預算支持台電之後，該做的事情還是要持續做，好不好？過去2017年到2020年70億的成效我認為相當好，我希望持續來做。做當然是以沿海地區，就是第一個受風面最強的，有做跟沒做差很多，看這次林園、大寮整個被折斷的狀況，我認為那個其實是需要繼續進行的，好不好？"],["何次長晉滄：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請兩個禮拜研議給我一份報告。"],["何次長晉滄：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：接下來我想請一下國發會主委。"],["主席：國發會劉主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這一次17級強風重創臺灣，高雄港大概也是創了有史以來的紀錄，有沒有什麼樣的專案重建，或者是對人民的專案補助計畫會推動？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為過去這部分我們都會有……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我這樣講好了啦！我直接建議主委，因為這一次地方政府已經受創很重，包括現在還有很多的教室，甚至很多校舍，還有很多的基礎建設受到了很大的影響，這個災情陸續都會出來。國發會作為整個內閣小團隊裡面的大腦角色，我希望你整體去整理一下、思考一下，在兩個禮拜內提出來，是不是有一個整體性的、硬體的對於地方政府的協助，包括這些重建的規劃，甚至於整個思考每個縣市的補貼方式、補助方式不太一樣，兩個禮拜內是不是整體研議一下給我一份報告，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我下午會跟院報告。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為現在災情才陸續出來而已，有些東西受創，我今天看到有幾個學校陸續傳回來一些狀況，剛剛你也有看到強風這麼強的狀況，一些屋頂、貨櫃整個都被吹掉了，所以其實受創很嚴重，甚至有一些校園也受到影響，我希望做一個整合性的統合工作，以專案的部分來做整體的，跟院長報告一下，兩個禮拜時間給我們一份報告跟規劃，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：接下來我想要問一下，剛剛我看你的報告裡面提到預估今年經濟成長率約達到4%，我也相當的……，包括我們現在的出口各方面都表現相當好，我想問的是，如果我們現在的總預算遲遲無法付委審查，對經濟發展會不會產生影響？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這一定會有一定的影響。"],["賴委員瑞隆：什麼樣的影響？如果遲遲無法進行的話，對於……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我們各項政策會難以推動，如果它延遲的話，我們的推動進度也會受到影響。"],["賴委員瑞隆：會有什麼樣重大影響，如果遲遲無法進行這些事項的話？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：應該是我們所有的計畫都無法實施。"],["賴委員瑞隆：包括經濟成長率等等可能都不一定能夠達成這樣的目標，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們就會有困難。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望這件事情還是要清楚的跟……立法院還是要積極來做審議，有意見的、該凍結、該刪除的可以來討論，但是全部把它擋住，讓整個建設無法推動，這不是國家之福。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，我想請教一下，我看到你的報告裡面另外有一個是到中東歐的部分做一些雙邊合作，我看到蔡英文總統這個月要到捷克參訪，我也認為如果這個國家對我們是友善的，我們應該更積極來推動，整體的國家利益是一體的，比如，像捷克是一個很好的突破點，它對我們非常友善的時候，其實我認為未來在經貿上應該要有更多的合作，讓整個國家整體是整合在一起發展的，主委認同這樣的看法嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，因為我自己利用暑假期間也去了一趟捷克、立陶宛這些地方，的確兩國的關係目前非常好，我們都可以見到最高層。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然一定是非常好，才有可能卸任的總統有辦法得到高度的禮遇方式去，我也希望對我們相對友善的國家，我們在經貿上給予更多的合作，希望讓兩國之間的情誼更好，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這些都在進行中。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後我請教一下，日本在今年有宣布了四大金融特區，臺灣現在有亞洲資產管理中心，高雄現在全力在爭取當中，主委，第一個，高雄有沒有機會爭取到？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個是金管會的權責，但是就我瞭解，因為高雄也具備了相當得天獨厚的條件，這也在它的選項之一。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以主委大力來促成，好不好？高雄所具備包括現在所有的條件部分，不管是在整個資金，包括我們的經濟發展，其實高雄的亞灣區具備相當好的條件，我們看到日本其實有四個地點同步在做。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我認為其實高雄絕對也是一個很適當的地點，我希望主委大力協助、支持，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，一定。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員，亞洲資產中心在南高雄也可以，北高雄也可以。","下一位請張啓楷委員質詢，發言時間6加2分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","speakers":["邱志偉","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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各位委員 各位官員 早安 我也希望可以請到部長部長請政務委員 早"},{"start":17.663,"end":30.859,"text":"這個照片其實沒有什麼意思啦只是剛剛有聽到您說您跟經濟部也滿常吵架的可是我知道部長上禮拜應該也都有聽到我在總諮詢還有國事論壇的發言其實我們對於醫院未來的節能減碳"},{"start":35.384,"end":53.456,"text":"﹗"},{"start":53.556,"end":69.827,"text":"每個幾個月就做這樣子的要求嗎所以看起來我覺得您牽涉的業務真的很多部門是不是未來您會覺得在醫院的碳排碳盤查這方面您會覺得需要院長來主持有很多跨部門的合作"},{"start":70.487,"end":89.933,"text":"報告委員其實這個因為我的身負的這個要檢探的重任所以其實我們跟衛福部跟經濟部還有金管會我們這四個部的確是有一個密切的協調合作那我們大概在一兩個月就會提出一個方案針對醫療院所我們不是要他們做探盤查因為他們不是現在我們要列管的單位"},{"start":90.373,"end":116.208,"text":"但是我們會幫他們來做深度的節能幫醫院深度的節能醫院就可以減少開支但是這個經費需要有一點點的支持所以這個支持我們會想辦法用民間的資金來帶動我們正在想辦法對今天其實主要是為了我們的醫療院所來關心這個議題所以也希望部長可以多為我們檢查您剛講到的節能是不是就在您提到的範疇一跟範疇二之內因為這兩個只佔了碳排的三成"},{"start":119.47,"end":137.549,"text":"還有另外的範疇三是關於比如說他的醫材藥材還有最近您也吵起來的這個抗生素的問題以及病患還有這個員工他們通勤這個在範疇三您剛剛講的這個節能非常好因為醫院的能源齁"},{"start":138.51,"end":139.51,"text":"您剛提到我覺得節能這件事情非常好"},{"start":168.063,"end":172.765,"text":"除了這個其他七成的碳排您要怎麼協助醫院來做計算呢因為我們現在要減肥也要先知道自己多重嘛對現在大家自己多重還不知道"},{"start":191.776,"end":206.412,"text":"報告委員 範疇一二是最容易做的特別是如果醫院不是我們管制的話他不用那麼急著去做這種所謂的細節的碳盤查先減碳先減節電先節電節電或是省水這是最重要的那我們會剛剛講過要輔導"},{"start":208.174,"end":232.245,"text":"那至於範疇三齁其實這個目前全世界都還在進行當中那我們的確是有在討論這個事情然後我們也在觀察日本日本有在做範疇三但是也才剛開始而已所以目前我們會提醒可以要怎麼做那我所知道的是衛福部他們也挖了一個在這個林明南副院長他在慈濟大林院也會到衛福部工作他未來就要做這類的工作"},{"start":233.771,"end":251.369,"text":"所以這張他有講到說您講的節電非常重要但是光是節電很多醫院已經嚇死了星光他是自己花自己的錢自掏腰包去請員工訓練永續的課程這永續的課程部長應該知道外面很貴"},{"start":252.57,"end":256.052,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":272.461,"end":299.106,"text":"心中有沒有什麼idea比如說更大的長根等等的其他醫院他們光是做範疇一跟二對他們自己的成本會花到多少的錢包委員像臺大的這個電費大概就花到兩三億那他其實最好的是他把冰水主機還有他的室內的照明還有空調整個做一個大更換那這個就要請專業人評估啦那我像我前兩天到這個能源展我就問他們他們的經驗大概也要花到幾億"},{"start":300.807,"end":324.583,"text":"這個幾億如果用ASCO的方式來進行的話醫院就不必花自己的錢但是必須說有一段時間他還是要花這個電費然後用這個轉換的方式讓保險公司的資金能夠帶進來所以目前是用這樣的方式因為這個目前如果要這麼大一筆錢深度節能靠政府的錢是無法補助的這個洞很大需要用民間的資金一起來做所以我們現在在準備做這個事情"},{"start":325.823,"end":348.515,"text":"對我也希望您可以宣導因為當天我有看到說這個電話事件您受訪說環境部已經有具體的方案那我也問了很多我的醫師界的朋友同學他們很多都被醫院指派現在到這個ESG檢探小組去上課所以他們一一都在培訓可是你的這個"},{"start":349.956,"end":379.191,"text":"具體方案大家沒有聽說大家沒有聽說甚至您剛告訴我的很多事情我好像也是第一次聽說知道說範疇一跟範疇二也許這個負擔的成本比較不用太擔心嘛對不對您的意思是這樣子就所以報委員因為這個這件事情是我們經濟部跟那個環境部扛起來然後我們找衛福部再找資金再做這是一個新的做法那當然啦我們也當然希望說衛福部可以出一點錢但是我覺得健保點出就很辛苦了"},{"start":379.831,"end":400.293,"text":"您剛有講到說您的預算我我看了一下也只有9000萬嗎對沒有沒有應該都沒那麼的多我們是沒有辦法補助醫院做這個事的但是我們的一些概念或是說透過市場的機制的確是可以幫醫院的忙"},{"start":401.654,"end":418.545,"text":"對所以我們會負責私立的醫院那公部立的醫院呢經濟部會來協助所以我們有一個小組就來做這個事情對因為您具備的就是所有的永續人才都在您的旗下了嘛對對所以現在私立醫院他們會覺得很慌張因為他們很多是要自己去想辦法"},{"start":420.286,"end":444.837,"text":"對,透過這個委員這個機會我也可以公開喊話說醫院不要著急跟著我們環境部走不要著急可是我們只有從報紙上看到你有具體方案你還沒端出來啊因為我還沒有場域可以說啦這個要把資金找到這需要一點點時間再給我們一兩個月大家真的不要急所以關於這個永續師啊等等這些課程你有考慮未來要做國家級的認證嗎"},{"start":447.112,"end":475.979,"text":"其實這個永續的功能跟目標我是覺得可以重新再思考啦因為這個是市面上的商業的行為啦那真的去做節能減碳其實它有專門的這個證照所以其實這個永續的定義它到底要做什麼用我們尊重市場的考慮但是其實我們政府也有環境部也有開一些班但是那個都很便宜但是我必須說也不見得一定要去完全上這個課其實你只要有心環境部提供各種的素材你都可以做得到"},{"start":476.656,"end":500.151,"text":"是對那至於醫院他們現在比較擔心的就是說你的這個具體方案我等一下會有個靈體我們會希望你可以列出這個時程比如說他們要在多久以前完成範疇一範疇二多久以前完成節能然後未來你的補助計畫減碳的補助這些他們需要初步有個概念否則他們很難做未來的成本推算跟預估"},{"start":503.973,"end":523.503,"text":"最後再問兩個比較簡短的問題這個您很熟悉啦,氣候專家2021年的時候曾經有200多個國家簽署了格拉斯哥氣候協議他們是明確的希望可以加速減少或是移除沒有效率的化石燃料的補貼"},{"start":524.744,"end":535.109,"text":"那這當然是要請教部長您知道臺灣現在的這些補貼是持續的下降還是持續的上升按照現在我們希望不要電價漲持續的上升當中"},{"start":537.609,"end":553.989,"text":"但是我必須說這個國際上都是一樣例如說像很多的國家對這200多個簽名的國家其實這個也都在上升包括委員這個都是一個倡議就是倡議嘛就是我們宣導什麼但是實際上作用是一回事國際上很多都這樣對那這邊本席也是只是給你們"},{"start":554.83,"end":555.73,"text":"謝謝委員 這個我們會留意好 謝謝"},{"start":584.454,"end":584.715,"text":"謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:59:01 - 10:08:47","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155098","gazette":{"lineno":330,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時59分）主席、各位委員、各位官員早安。我也希望可以請到部長。"],["主席：彭部長，請。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：早。這個照片其實沒有什麼意思，只是剛剛有聽到您說，您跟經濟部也蠻常吵架的。可是我知道部長上禮拜應該也都有聽到我在總質詢還有國是論壇的發言，醫院未來的節能、減碳、碳排、碳盤查等等很需要密切與衛福部運作，現在甚至可能加上經濟部。因為您知道醫院、醫療院所的電價10月16日之後可能會凍漲，但是明年、後年沒有人知道，總不能每隔幾個月就這樣要求，所以我覺得您的業務真的牽涉很多部門。未來在醫院的碳排、碳盤查這方面，您是不是會覺得需要院長來主持，因為有很多跨部門的合作？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我身負減碳的重任，所以我們跟衛福部、經濟部，還有金管會，這四個部的確有密切的協調合作。針對醫療院所，我們大概再過一、兩個月就會提出一個方案。我們不是要他們做碳盤查，因為他們不是現在我們要列管的單位，但是我們會幫他們來做深度的節能，幫醫院深度的節能，醫院就可以減少開支，而這個經費需要有一點點的支持，這個支持我們會想辦法用民間的資金來帶動，我們正在想辦法。"],["陳委員菁徽：今天主要是為了醫療院所來關心這個議題，也希望部長可以多為我們解答。您剛剛講到的節能，是不是就在您提到的範疇一跟範疇二之內？因為這兩個只占了碳排的三成耶，還有另外的範疇三是關於比如說它的醫材、藥材，還有最近您也炒起來這個抗生素的問題，以及病患還有員工他們通勤，這個在範疇三。您剛剛講的這個節能非常好，因為醫院的能源排行是第一嘛，這個你也知道為什麼，因為我們很多維生系統是沒有辦法中斷的，還有對於溫度的控制非常的重要，感染率才可以降低，所以它比一般的運輸、教育，甚至百貨業都要高。而全球統計臺灣的醫療部門碳排放量在4.6%，比全球平均的4.4%還要高，也被指出我們是主要的排放國，顯然高於全球的平均。可是您剛剛提到的，我覺得節能這件事情非常好，而且本來就有很多公司在做這件事情，為了協助醫療院所或是大公司改善範疇一、範疇二，也就是直接還有間接的排放，但除了這個外，其他七成的碳排您要怎麼協助醫院來做計算呢？因為我們現在要減肥也要先知道自己多重嘛！現在大家自己多重還不知道。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，範疇一、二是最容易做的，特別如果醫院不是我們管制的話，它不用那麼急著去做這種所謂細節的碳盤查啦，先減碳、先節電，節電或省水這是最重要的，我們剛剛講過會輔導。至於範疇三，其實目前全世界都還在進行當中，我們的確是有在討論這個事情，然後我們也在觀察日本，他們有在做範疇三，但是也才剛開始而已，所以目前我們會提醒可以怎麼做。我所知道的是衛福部也挖了林名男到衛福部工作，他在慈濟大林醫院當副院長，他未來就要做這類的工作。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以這張有講到，您講的節電非常重要，但是光是節電很多醫院已經嚇死了，新光是花自己的錢喔，自掏腰包請員工訓練永續的課程，部長應該知道這永續的課程在外面很貴嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：很貴。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以這個成本也是要自己吸收，您聽總質詢也知道醫療院所現在非常的艱困，連健保點值都已經達不到了，電費還要被漲，護理師又不斷地流失。新光說可能要花5,000萬來開展節能減碳計畫；臺大說要花8,000萬，部長，你心中有沒有什麼idea？比如說更大的長庚等等的，還有其他醫院他們光是做範疇一跟二，他們自己的成本會花到多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，像臺大的電費大概就花到2、3億，其實它最好的作法是把冰水主機、室內的照明，還有空調整個大更換，這個都要請專業人員評估啦！像我前兩天到能源展，我就問他們，他們的經驗大概也要花到幾億，如果用ESCO的方式來進行的話，醫院就不必花自己的錢，但是我必須說有一段時間它還是要花電費，然後用轉換的方式讓保險公司的資金能夠帶進來，所以我們目前是用這樣的方式。因為目前如果要這麼大一筆錢來做深度節能，靠政府的錢是無法補助的，這個洞很大，需要用民間的資金一起來做，所以我們現在在準備做這個事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，我也希望您可以宣導，因為當天我有看到電話事件，您受訪說環境部已經有具體的方案，我也問了很多我醫師界的朋友、同學，他們現在很多都被醫院指派到ESG減碳小組去上課，所以他們都在一一培訓。可是你的具體方案大家沒有聽說，甚至您剛告訴我的很多事情我好像也是第一次聽說，才知道範疇一跟範疇二也許負擔的成本比較不用太擔心嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：您的意思是這樣子？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這件事情是經濟部跟環境部扛起來，然後我們找衛福部找資金在做，這是一個新的作法啦！當然我們也希望衛福部可以出一點錢，但是我覺得健保點數就很辛苦了，而我們碳費也不會太高，所以其實目前我們從各方的資金來尋求合作。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道您剛剛有講到您的預算，我看了一下好像也只有9,000萬嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，應該沒那麼多，我們沒有辦法補助醫院做這個事啦，但是我們的一些概念或是說透過市場的機制，的確是可以幫醫院的忙，所以我們會負責私立的醫院，而公部立的醫院經濟部會來協助，我們有一個小組就在做這個事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，因為您具備的就是所有的永續人才都在您的旗下了嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以現在私立醫院會覺得很慌張，因為他們很多是要自己去想辦法。"],["彭部長啓明：對，也透過委員垂詢這個機會，我也可以公開喊話，請醫院不要著急，跟著我們環境部走，不要著急，我們又不會馬上收碳費……"],["陳委員菁徽：可是我們只有從報紙上看到你有具體方案，你還沒端出來啊！"],["彭部長啓明：因為我還沒有場域可以說啦！要把資金找到，這需要一點點時間，再給我們1、2個月，大家真的不要急。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以關於永續師等等這些課程，你有考慮未來要做國家級的認證嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實永續的功能跟目標，我是覺得可以重新再思考，因為這個是市面上商業的行為啦，真的去做節能減碳其實有專門的證照。所以這個永續的定義它到底要做什麼用，我們尊重市場的考慮，但是其實環境部也有開一些班，那個都很便宜，我必須說不見得一定要完全去上這個課，你只要有心，環境部提供各種素材你都可以做得到！"],["陳委員菁徽：是，對，至於醫院他們現在比較擔心的就是你的這個具體方案……我等一下會有個臨提，我們會希望你可以列出這個時程，比如說他們要在多久以前完成範疇一、範疇二，多久以前完成節能，然後未來你的補助計畫、減碳的補助這些，他們需要初步有個概念，否則很難做未來的成本推算跟預估。"],["彭部長啓明：OK，好，謝謝委員，這個我們會提供。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，最後再問兩個比較簡短的問題，這個您很熟悉啦，您是氣候專家！2021年的時候，曾經有兩百多個國家簽署了格拉斯哥氣候協議，他們明確希望可以加速減少或是移除沒有效率的化石燃料補貼。接著當然是要請教部長，您知道臺灣現在這些補貼是持續地下降還是持續地上升嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：按照現在我們希望不要調漲電價的立場，是持續地上升當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：OK。"],["彭部長啓明：但是我必須說這個國際上都是一樣，例如說像很多的國家……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，這兩百多個簽名的國家也都在上升。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個都是一個倡議啦，就是倡議嘛，就是我們宣導什麼，但是實際上做又是一回事，國際上很多都是這樣。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，本席這邊也只是給你們具體的建議啦，因為陳吉仲在2022年3月就公開承諾過，未來漁業用的補貼用油會逐年地減少，可是其實還是逐年地成長。我是建議部長是不是可以考慮跟其他的部門交流，將這個補貼轉換到其他對我們減碳比較有幫助的補貼，實際上還是往燃料下降的方向去進行，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，這個我們會留意。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","繼續我們請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:11:02","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:08:34+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155097","委員名稱":"萬美玲","duration":662,"start_time":"2024-10-07T09:57:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493f9769184e3ba2fa402bf54ec90cbbd08772a8a89b87e038285564259685e84df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.5834687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.7809687499999995,"end":60.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.31221875,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.51096875,"end":63.852218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.16846875,"end":110.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.89971875,"end":117.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.88596875,"end":120.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.82659375,"end":121.075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我們教育部喔 太多事情要辦了那我們今天在配合農業部的政策能對孩子好 我們也願意嘛但是部長 你有沒有想過啊我想大家也都是從這個學校 對學校也都很了解喔我們今天如果沒有冷鏈 沒有冷藏到底哪一個學校有這麼多的冰箱可以去冰這些鮮奶 或者是去存放這個保酒乳喔你們知道嗎 現在啊 我們就連保酒乳的供應量啊都非常的不足啊"},{"start":270.895,"end":276.497,"text":"國內的所有的大廠的保酒乳目前量通通不夠一個禮拜大概只夠一次這個您知道嗎?您知道嗎?根文報告我大概知道大概知道不是那麼準確的知道基本上大概有這樣的一個現象沒有這是確定的啊現在是不夠的連保酒乳都不夠那麼一週就只能一次這又再一次去跳票啦對不對好"},{"start":295.842,"end":303.664,"text":"那再來勒,不但是我們亮跳票,我們看到,您剛提到這個共同供應契約啊,我們現在變的運算就是鮮奶16塊嘛,然後保九五14塊,那這一些呢,其實就已經非常低了。然後呢,我們那個貨運的這個運送,然後到了學校的人力,您知道嗎,現在因為沒有貨運運送的這個成本的這個經費在裡面,那所以呢,我們打算一個月送一次去,我不要講別的,"},{"start":321.607,"end":340.979,"text":"以本席選區內全桃園市最大的中三國小你一次就要給我送一千箱去啊我還要找教室給你放啊我們沒有教室啊以前我們說運送的問題可能有偏向的問題那現在連都會區都是這樣的一個問題啊大的學校三千人小的學校一千人動輒三五百箱八九百箱到一千箱往往哪放"},{"start":342.019,"end":368.695,"text":"有些人就協議說我們來放教室的後面這也影響學生的空間這都是問題然後各縣市政府不管他財政狀況好不好要來幫這個政策編列人力的預算來幫忙搬送鮮奶因為我們不能造成第一線的老師、行政員員午餐執迷的困擾所以這一些都是我們要配合農業部的政策但是教育部在第一線執行的時候真的帶給我們行政員員跟教師很大的困擾部長你認為有沒有"},{"start":371.685,"end":378.153,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 這也是我剛才跟其他委員報告的我們希望通過這一學期實際跟地方政府的一個推動中小學的一個...確實是有造成一些困擾"},{"start":389.426,"end":402.799,"text":"所以你就有同理心嘛我想說老師也會很感謝你的同理心嘛所以我們要去解決這個問題嘛我們不能每一次農業部丟一個政策出來我們就開始急救章要來配合他們如果真的做不到你要跟農業部講說給我一點時間嘛是不是你不能一頭栽進去結果咧我們承受這麼大的壓力再來那個"},{"start":409.585,"end":419.842,"text":"我想請教一下過去班班吃食班喔班班吃食班這件事情喔那只有很短暫嘛這對我們的孩子啊有什麼幫助我請那個國教署署長來回答"},{"start":425.923,"end":442.193,"text":"謝謝委員我簡單的說明我們從時燈平台後台來看小朋友他們午餐的菜單上在110年以前比較少餘的這個菜單在112學年吃過了一學期的班班十班之後呢他是比較明顯的成長那這個數據我們在下班前給您"},{"start":446.01,"end":469.636,"text":"謝謝部長所以呢因為我們有班班吃食班的政策所以孩子們開始變得喜歡吃娛樂然後或者是開始可以接受吃娛樂那這樣是好事如果真是這樣這是好事但是我們來看喔班班有鮮奶的政策今天我們變成班班飽酒辱班班有鮮奶的政策變成班班有飽酒辱我們真的第一個我想次長在旁邊也聽喔"},{"start":470.516,"end":491.883,"text":"我們真的可以幫到我們的國產鮮乳我們的弱農嗎這是第一個問題第二個問題呢我想我們大家都有在質疑喔班班變成飽酒乳其實我們就是在為未來比較這個價廉的進口飽酒乳來搭橋有的孩子習慣喝這個飽酒乳之後他就回不去了"},{"start":492.463,"end":492.903,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就"},{"start":510.094,"end":529.969,"text":"讓學童來幫忙舊產業那真的太沉重了我們孩子就是只想喝鮮奶而已所以我在這裡提醒我想部長本期這一次剛剛我想我跟洪孟楷委員我們都有正式提案我今天有一個臨時提案我正式的要求部長不能造成我們第一線的老師跟行政院的困擾"},{"start":530.989,"end":551.704,"text":"過去我們在這個免費的營養午餐協助弱勢的學童當寒暑假的時候我們怎麼做各縣市政府或中央我們的做法就是我們發這個餐券營養午餐券然後到這個便利超商然後去領取他們可以食用的午餐所以呢我們要求這個政策能夠盡快立即的我們要把它改變成為發這個鮮奶券然後可以到這個便利超商也好賣場也好"},{"start":559.369,"end":561.671,"text":"第二、減少學校放置鮮奶空間的壓力第三、減少老師及行政員員的壓力"},{"start":582.315,"end":599.975,"text":"跟委員報告確實我們透過這個實際的在推動的時候也把這樣的一個在未來更精進的一個政策的執行也把委員剛才所提的也納入了一個我們思考的一個方向但是當時為什麼由學校裡邊來就是要確保我們"},{"start":601.256,"end":605.558,"text":"這部分有一些細節我們都還會跟地方政府裡面看怎麼樣有一個更完善的一個推動的一個方式。"},{"start":619.045,"end":619.085,"text":"主席"},{"start":636.048,"end":654.134,"text":"這個政策其實從這個六、七月就開始講所以本席要求一個月之內我覺得你要去研議出來有什麼方式不要造成我們教育現場、學校現場的壓力但又可以完成農業部的這個班班有鮮奶給我們的這個政策所以一個月之內去把它研議出來積極一點好嗎我們會努力可以齁 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝次長請回"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:57:32 - 10:08:34","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","id":"155097","gazette":{"lineno":243,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時57分）謝謝主席，我們有請鄭部長還有杜次長。"],["主席：有請部長和次長，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：部長、次長，早。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員早。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，「班班有鮮奶」這個政策事實上很清楚，剛剛培瑜委員有講到一個，說「班班有鮮奶」是想要去化，就是有沒有可能去化國產鮮奶等等什麼的，但我想應該不是，因為農業部很清楚是為了因應臺灣跟紐西蘭經濟合作協定明年要上路，恐怕會對本土酪農業造成衝擊，我們希望減輕一點那個衝擊，所以提出了「班班有鮮奶」的政策。","為什麼我今天這麼慎重，還做了手板？原本是說「班班有鮮奶」，對不對？後來變成什麼了？變成「班班有保久乳」，對不對？可是現在是什麼？不管鮮奶或保久乳，現在是「班班在等待」！部長不反對吧？現在是「班班在等待」啊！","推出這個政策如果可以製造多贏，對本土酪農也好，對我們的孩童也好，我們是全力贊成的。可是截至10月1號（當然，這個數字可能在滾動檢討當中，如果有錯誤，等一下歡迎你們糾正），鮮奶跟保久乳目前是7個縣市訂購，剛剛好像有聽到部長說是9個縣市，但是沒關係，好像是7個縣市，約有863所學校完成訂購，9月30日預備開始配送，占全國2,624所國小的三成二。也就是說，現在開始要完成配送的大概就是三成多，即便數字有些差距，恐怕就是三成多。部長，沒有問題嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，在9月底之前確實是這一個數字，10月1號有嘉義，加上10月4日的宜蘭……"],["萬委員美玲：有超過四成了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：已經有9個縣市。"],["萬委員美玲：有沒有超過四成？"],["鄭部長英耀：應該會有四成。"],["萬委員美玲：我粗估、幫你統計了一下，應該還是四成不到，但是原來這個政策講得很清楚，就是要讓我們的學童一週喝兩次鮮奶，可見現在其實就是政策跳票！","不管是豆漿，因為有些孩子不能喝鮮奶，或者是剛剛說的因為乳糖不耐症，要提供無乳糖的鮮奶，這個標案分別都流標了兩到三次，要到10月8日才能再開標，萬一開標不順利，我想教育部應該也很頭大。後面要怎麼辦？這個備案出來了嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：報告召委，先要謝謝召委支持學童乳的政策……"],["萬委員美玲：我們答重點！"],["杜次長文珍：希望學生有鮮奶喝。站在農業部的立場，當然是照顧國產鮮奶……"],["萬委員美玲：次長，請你下去！","部長，我剛剛講的，如果豆漿跟無乳糖的鮮奶繼續流標，換言之，以我現在的數據，大概還有十幾個縣市的學生以及訂豆漿和無乳糖鮮奶的孩子到時候只能看別人喝鮮奶，那他該怎麼辦？部長有對策嗎？如果沒有，沒關係，我覺得你說一個「沒有」我們都可以來討論。目前有嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，不管各地方政府到最後在什麼時候決標，該提供的量我們一定會把它補足，大概目前……"],["萬委員美玲：我跟你講，這就跟當初的「班班有石斑」一樣，本來說好的要有石斑吃，結果沒有，一直跳票、跳票，到最後呢？一個禮拜叫學生吃4天石斑！部長，你可能不知道這個狀況。你不能這樣子啊！說：沒關係嘛，最後一天給你2瓶，讓你補完就好了！不是這樣子的！我覺得要有一個政策出來。","我們再來看今天所提到的，之前我就有提醒教育部，這個政策是農業部提出來的，說真的啦，我們教育部太多事情要辦了，今天配合農業部的政策，能對孩子好我們也願意，但是部長你有沒有想過，我想大家對學校也都很瞭解，今天如果沒有冷鏈、沒有冷藏，到底哪一個學校有這麼多冰箱可以去冰這些鮮奶，或者是去存放這個保久乳？您知道嗎？現在就連保久乳的供應量都非常不足，國內所有大廠的保久乳目前的量統統不夠，一個禮拜大概只夠供應一次，這個您知道嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我大概知道。"],["萬委員美玲：大概知道？不是那麼準確地知道？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上大概有這樣一個現象出現。"],["萬委員美玲：這是確定的啊！現在是不夠的！連保久乳都不夠，那麼一週就只能一次，所以這個是再次跳票！對不對？","再來呢？不但是量跳票，您剛剛提到共同供應契約，我們現在編的預算就是鮮奶16塊、保久乳14塊，這些其實就已經非常低了，然後貨運的運送、到了學校的人力，您知道嗎？現在因為沒有貨運運送成本的經費在裡面，所以打算一個月送一次去，不要講別的，連本席選區內全桃園市最大的中山國小，一次就要給我送1,000箱去，我還要找教室給你放！我們沒有教室啊！以前我們說運送方面可能偏鄉有問題，現在連都會區都有這樣的問題！大的學校3,000人，小的學校1,000人，動輒三、五百箱，八、九百箱到一千箱，要往哪裡放？好，有些就協議說來放教室的後面，可是這也影響學生的活動空間，這都是問題啊！然後各縣市政府不管財政狀況好不好，也要來幫這個政策編列人力的預算，來幫忙搬送鮮奶，因為不能造成第一線的老師、行政人員、午餐執秘的困擾。所以這些都是我們要配合農業部的政策，但是教育部在第一線執行的時候，真的帶給我們行政人員跟教師很大的困擾。部長，你認為有沒有？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，這也是我們……我剛才跟其他委員報告……"],["萬委員美玲：你只要告訴我，你覺得第一線教師有沒有困擾？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們透過這一學期實際跟地方政府的推動，中小學的一個……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，真的不要浪費我的時間啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們來……"],["萬委員美玲：你覺得目前的狀況對於我們第一線的老師有沒有造成困擾？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實是有造成一些困擾。"],["萬委員美玲：是嘛！所以你就有同理心，我想老師也會感謝你的同理心，所以我們就要去解決這個問題嘛！不能每次農業部丟一個政策出來，我們就開始急就章地要來配合他們，如果真的做不到，你也要跟農業部講，說「給我一點時間」嘛！是不是？你不能一頭栽進去，結果呢？我們承受這麼大的壓力！","再來我想請教一下，過去說要「班班吃石斑」，這件事情很短暫，對我們的孩子有什麼幫助？我請國教署彭署長來回答。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。我簡單說明，我們從食登平台後台來看，小朋友的午餐菜單上，在110年以前比較少有魚的菜單，在112學年吃過了一學期的「班班吃石斑」之後，它是比較明顯地成長，這個數據我們在下班前給您。"],["萬委員美玲：明顯地成長，好，謝謝。","部長，因為我們有「班班吃石斑」的政策，所以孩子們開始變得喜歡吃魚了，或者是開始可以接受吃魚了，這樣是好事，如果真是這樣，這是好事。但是我們來看「班班有鮮奶」的政策，今天變成「班班保久乳」，班班有鮮奶的政策變成班班有保久乳，次長在旁邊也一起聽，第一個，我們真的可以幫到我們國產鮮乳的酪農嗎？這是第一個問題；第二個問題，我想我們大家都有在質疑，班班有鮮奶變成保久乳，其實我們就是在為未來比較價廉的進口保久乳來搭橋，有的孩子習慣喝保久乳之後，他就回不去了，他可能就回不去了，是不是讓他去習慣將來也可以喝國外更便宜、選擇性更多的保久乳？所以我想每一次，不論是有石斑的問題也好，鮮乳的問題也好，我們不管因應國家政策是什麼，如果我們今天希望讓學童來幫忙救產業，那真的太沉重啦！我們孩子就是只想喝鮮奶而已。","所以我在這裡提醒，部長，這一次我跟洪孟楷委員都有正式提案，我今天有一個臨時提案，我正式的要求部長，不能造成我們第一線老師跟行政人員的困擾，過去我們在免費的營養午餐協助弱勢的學童，當寒暑假的時候，我們怎麼做？各縣市政府或中央的做法就是，我們發營養午餐券，然後到便利超商去領取他們可以食用的午餐。所以我們要求這個政策能夠儘快、立即的把它改變為發鮮奶券，可以到便利超商也好或是賣場也好，直接去領取。而這個時間你可以押、可以變成一週券，也許這一週當中兩次他都可以去領取，我想第一個，他可以領取到新鮮的鮮奶；第二個，又可以減少學校放置鮮奶空間的壓力；第三個，這是最重要的，節省我們老師跟行政人員壓力，可以做到嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實我們在透過實際推動的時候，針對這樣一個在未來更精進的政策執行，也把委員剛才所提的，納入了我們思考的一個方向，但是當時為什麼要學校裡邊來，就是要確保……我們還不太確定學童當有牛奶、鮮奶券的時候，是不是他自己本人能夠真正飲用，這一個部分有一些細節我們都還會跟地方政府研議，看怎麼樣有一個更好的、完善的推動方式。"],["萬委員美玲：所以部長要多久的時間，可以把您剛剛擔心的這些點跟地方縣市政府溝通好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們目前在這一學期裡面，就整體各縣市面臨到的一些挑戰跟困境，我們希望以這一學期的狀況，在下一學期我們就能夠來做徹底的……"],["萬委員美玲：下學期真的太慢了，我想這個政策其實從6月、7月就開始講，所以本席要求一個月之內，我覺得你要去研議出來有什麼方式不要造成教育現場、學校現場的壓力，但又可以完成農業部給我們的「班班有鮮奶」這個政策，所以一個月之內去把它研議出來，積極一點好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們來努力。"],["萬委員美玲：可以喔？好。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝次長，請回。謝謝萬美玲召委。","接下來有請柯志恩委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葉元之","范雲","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張嘉郡","洪申翰","張雅琳","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","林月琴","吳春城","黃健豪","黃國昌","牛煦庭","徐富癸","羅智強","吳沛憶","高金素梅","李彥秀"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小\n學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國\n土管理署派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00016"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:13:38","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:05:06+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155096","委員名稱":"羅美玲","duration":818,"start_time":"2024-10-07T09:51:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493ae8b98a4419475f4de01320d1e415bd4772a8a89b87e038226c4e24d5983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的跡象再來還有9月30號9月30號像這個奧克拉荷馬州的這個官員也率領了這個十多家的無人機的這個相關廠商來拜訪台灣跟台灣的這個無人機聯盟簽署了無人機產業國際脫銷合作備忘錄所以從這種種的跡象看來我們是不是有機會爭取加入美國飛鴻供應鏈了請問"},{"start":270.396,"end":270.476,"text":"90%以上?"},{"start":295.811,"end":297.112,"text":"對整個這個就是因為他這個裡面"},{"start":322.334,"end":322.575,"text":"中科院議員"},{"start":342.854,"end":355.727,"text":"我們的確是有很多案子目前正在洽談中但是細節就因為都有簽了保密協定也不便透露但是我們的確是有機會也有這個潛力加入這樣的國民電"},{"start":357.331,"end":377.291,"text":"從美國最近的態度來看,從他發表的言論裡面,其實美國對台灣的創新能力其實是非常的肯定。所以也就是說,其實我們應該是,台美軍工產業合作應該已經初步來講是成型了嘛。所以加入這個飛鴻供應鏈其實應該是值得可待嘛,是不是?"},{"start":380.284,"end":407.701,"text":"首先,這應該是美國在大力推動的一個政策這個是政策形成接下來就是說要如何來打造這是一個當然有一個現實的狀況是有很多在中國製造的原件確實是比較便宜所以如何能夠要把它cost down就是說成本能夠降低這個是大家現在要來思考的一個課題但是這個政策已經形成了"},{"start":407.841,"end":409.162,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為：羅美玲"},{"start":433.201,"end":436.282,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":450.227,"end":478.046,"text":"好的,謝謝,了解再來就要提到漢祥了剛剛我們沈國陽委員也有提到漢祥當然之前就是爆出工程師在這個公開社群的這個帳號多次分享國際國造的這個機密的資料當然經過調查之後我們是核定就是說國防部有核定說這些就沒有涉及這個我們涉密的這個工項可是它是屬於重大的這個違規"},{"start":480.708,"end":505.744,"text":"當然這個漢翔後來還是被罰了這個一百萬那我這邊要提到的就是說我剛剛有提到像奧克拉荷馬州在9月30號的時候其實有跟這個我國的無人機聯盟簽署了一個MOU這個聯盟的主席就是誰呢這主席就是漢翔航空工業有限公司的董事長好那類似這樣子他們公司又出了這個包那會不會讓這個美國對於"},{"start":510.447,"end":539.453,"text":"台灣在這保密方面的有所質疑的這會影響我想美國也好或者是其他有門國家也好或者我們自己本身也好我們要做一個比較更詳盡的一個不管是在這個資安面或者是在人員的查核安全查核面上面都需要來更加強這個是應該我們要努力再去做到的"},{"start":539.933,"end":559.93,"text":"是的,因為像漢祥這些秘案我們再來對照回來我們國防供應鏈其實我們有所謂的保密機制其實剛剛律師博士也有提到所以在2017年的時候我們為了要推動國防自主跟國防科技供應所以其實我們有比照美國建立了國防科技安全"},{"start":560.47,"end":568.072,"text":"﹑針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍"},{"start":589.677,"end":590.197,"text":"我們要加入美國的國防的供應鏈"},{"start":616.576,"end":641.129,"text":"其實台灣的國防產業你就要加入、導入CMMC像美國國防部的推動CMMC呢2025年的時候預計就要來生效了2026年的9月之後呢美國國防部他就會在採購案就要強制來要求承包廠商你必須取得這個認證那我們台灣準備好了嗎我們有導入這方面的這個機制嗎請問部長"},{"start":643.407,"end":661.041,"text":"跟委員報告就是說漢祥或者是中科院都應該要當領頭羊來努力來達成需要的一個要求那現在另外比較大的部分是另外有一些私人的私領域的這些產業"},{"start":662.302,"end":662.522,"text":"：羅美玲"},{"start":692.462,"end":692.522,"text":"：羅美玲"},{"start":713.993,"end":715.354,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":735.986,"end":736.626,"text":"美國是認同這個部分的嗎?"},{"start":762.352,"end":782.987,"text":"美國承諾會盡量來...會盡量來...對,我們比較擔心的就是說如果沒有拿到CMMC的這個認證你就拿不到美國的這個訂單這是讓我們比較擔心的部分所以這樣我們都已經參與了一系列的這個美國工業這個會議那當然這部分我也希望就是說能夠就是說"},{"start":783.707,"end":783.747,"text":"：羅美玲"},{"start":806.175,"end":806.456,"text":"主席"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:51:28 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10:05:06","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","id":"155096","gazette":{"lineno":123,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時51分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好，中國在今年的兩會期間宣布編列軍事預算是人民幣一兆六千多億，也就是年增7.2%，中國屢創新高的軍事預算讓周遭很多國家都備感壓力，所以也都紛紛地提高了國防的預算，其中包含了長期受到中國軍事威脅的臺灣，所以我國在114年的整體國防預算編列了6,470億元，較去年成長了7.7%，其中有很多都是譬如像潛艦國造後續艦的籌建，還有無人機等採購，有37案的軍事投資計畫，甚至還包含了軍公教整體調薪3%等等。","照理來講，現在的國防委員會應該要來審這些預算，可是這整個預算，像國家的總體預算，在在野黨惡意的封殺之下，現在丟包在程序委員會。我想請問部長，如果這些預算沒有辦法順利通過的話，這對國家安全有多大的影響？"],["顧部長立雄：主要是新增案的部分，因為新增案的部分影響比較大，新增案的部分在我們建構不對稱戰力還有後備戰力的這個部分有相當地著墨，所以我們當然很希望這些新增案不會因為總預算案被封殺，因此使得我們沒有辦法有任何的新增案，當然潛艦也是其中的一部分。"],["羅委員美玲：現在這個怎麼辦呢？部長，這部分有跟在野黨的委員溝通嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：整體的總預算案，我們當然希望行政院能夠出面，然後跟在野黨溝通。"],["羅委員美玲：對於我們自己國防預算的部分呢？"],["顧部長立雄：國防預算的部分，現在新增案沒有辦法能夠……就是國防預算如果卡關的話，等於我們的新增案沒有辦法執行的話，我們的一些，包括剛剛提的，比如快速布雷艇、新型步槍這些等等，甚至民雄航太暨無人機產業園區的開發，也都會受到影響，整體的來講，當然對我們整個國家安全應該是會有一些重大的影響。"],["羅委員美玲：所以這個部分除了要跟在野黨的委員溝通之外，我想也應該要跟國人來做說明。","再來，還有一點，就是進入到今天的這個主題─台美國防工業會議，這個會議是由我們國防部的徐副部長率團出席，在這個會議當中，副部長有呼籲美方應該要儘速來協助臺灣建立關鍵性的武力，其中包括讓臺灣加入美方軍工產業鏈，比照日本及澳洲，希望能夠獲得共同或授權生產軍品；除此之外，我們也看到了美國國防部印太安全部首席副助理部長Royal有提到，美國近期將會組成印太地區產業韌性夥伴，臺灣在其中會扮演重要的角色；與此同時，在9月22日至25日當中美國無人機廠商也在AIT的牽線之下來跟臺灣的無人機產業及中科院做接觸；還有9月30日奧克拉荷馬州的官員也率領了十多家的無人機相關廠商來拜訪臺灣，跟臺灣的無人機聯盟簽署了無人機產業國際拓銷合作備忘錄；從這種種的跡象看來，請問我們是不是有機會爭取加入美國非紅供應鏈？"],["顧部長立雄：美國打造非紅供應鏈，特別在無人載具這一塊，已經有形成一個決策了……"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["顧部長立雄：根據這樣的一個決策，他當然希望結合相關的國家來共同，特別在無人機的部分，因為現在大概有75%以上無人機的製造都是來自於中國，所以……"],["羅委員美玲：90%以上，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：90%嗎？"],["羅委員美玲：是，高達90%以上。"],["顧部長立雄：我看到的資料好像是75%，反正都相當高的比例，所以要打造一個非紅供應鏈，在我們也好，或者其他的友盟國家，當然主要以美國為首的話，能夠帶頭來打造這樣一個非紅供應鏈，對整個來講，因為它裡面都有相當的一些資通訊設備，我想這些資通訊的設備能夠去除中國的製造或者中國的元件相當的重要，具體的這個部分就中科院的部分或者請中科院做一個簡單的說明。"],["羅委員美玲：好，請中科院。"],["李院長世強：委員，的確是有很多案子目前正在洽談中，但是細節因為都有簽了保密協定，也不便透露，但是我們的確是有機會也有潛力加入這樣的供應鏈。"],["羅委員美玲：是，從美國最近的態度來看，從他發表的言論裡面，其實美國對臺灣的這個創新能力是非常的肯定，也就是台美軍工產業合作應該初步來講已經是成形了，所以加入這個非紅供應鏈其實應該是指日可待，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：我還是講，第一個，這應該是美國在大力推動的一個政策，這個是政策形成……"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["顧部長立雄：接下來就是要如何來打造，這個是一個，當然有一個現實的狀況是有很多在中國製造的元件確實是比較便宜，所以如何能夠讓它cost down，就是讓成本能夠降低，這個是大家現在要來思考的一個課題……"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["顧部長立雄：但是這個政策已經形成了，政策形成之後，接下來就是是哪一些，比如無人機、無人艇，可以打入這個供應鏈裡面的一環，這個部分要大家來做細部的一些討論，剛剛中科院也講了，事實上，你也知道這個26個公司的團都已經過來了，也進行詳細的商談，具體的項目可能要原諒我們沒有辦法在這個時刻來做具體的說明……"],["羅委員美玲：OK。"],["顧部長立雄：但往這個方向走是美國主導大力要來推動的一個政策，這是毫無置疑的。"],["羅委員美玲：好，謝謝，瞭解。","再來，就要提到漢翔了，剛剛我們沈伯洋委員也有提到，漢翔之前爆出工程師在公開社群的帳號多次分享國機國造的機敏資料，當然經過調查之後，這些沒有涉及國防部核定的涉密工項，可是它是屬於重大的違規，當然漢翔後來還是被罰了100萬。我這邊要提到的，就是我剛剛有提到，奧克拉荷馬州在9月30日的時候其實有跟我國的無人機聯盟簽署了一個MOU，這個聯盟的主席是誰呢？這個主席就是漢翔航空工業有限公司的董事長，現在他們公司又出了這個包，會不會讓美國對於臺灣在這個保密方面有所質疑呢？這個會不會影響？"],["顧部長立雄：我想美國也好，或者是其他友盟國家也好，或者我們自己本身也好，我們要做一個更詳盡的處理，不管是在資安面，或者是在人員的安全查核面上，都需要來更加強，這個應該是我們要努力再去做到的。"],["羅委員美玲：是的，因為像漢翔的洩密案，我們再對照回來我們的國防供應鏈，其實我們有所謂的保密機制，剛剛沈伯洋委員也有提到，在2017年的時候，我們為了要推動國防自主及國防科技工業，其實我們有比照美國建立了國防科技安全管控的機制，還訂定了特別保密條款，還有參與國防事務人員保密安全的手冊等等，這些都是我們要求的要點，甚至我們在政戰局保安處還設立了安全調查辦公室，2023年的時候國防部還函送立法院國防廠商安全調查暨保密稽核執行成效報告，裡面其實都有提到一些策進的行為，可是還是很遺憾，有些還是沒落實。在漢翔公司發生這個事情，我想不應該再發生，因為我覺得這個真的是沒有落實，尤其漢翔這麼大的一家公司，所以我想國防部應該對漢翔公司要有所要求，對其他的廠商都要有所要求，尤其我們現在想要進入到人家的這個非紅產業鏈裡面。","再來，我們還提到CMMC，我們要加入美國的國防供應鏈，臺灣的國防產業就要導入CMMC，像美國國防部推動CMMC，2025年的時候預計就要生效了，2026年的9月之後，美國國防部就會在採購案強制來要求承包廠商必須取得這個認證，請問部長，我們臺灣準備好了嗎？我們有導入這方面的這個機制嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，漢翔或者是中科院都應該要當領頭羊，努力來達成CMMC的要求……"],["羅委員美玲：是，沒錯啊！"],["顧部長立雄：現在另外比較大的部分是有一些私領域的產業，這些私領域的產業，我們剛剛前面提到了，要加入無人機或者是無人載具的這個供應鏈裡面的話，他們也要理解他們資安認證的承受度，也就是CMMC，必須要能夠被美國所認證，因為認證的費用可能會高，所以我們現在跟美國一直在講，看能不能一個認證的單位在臺灣成立，如果能夠成立……"],["羅委員美玲：就是我們自己設立……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，就美國授權某一家，或者是……"],["羅委員美玲：美國授權某一家認證公司來做認證。"],["顧部長立雄：或者美國自己在這裡成立一家認證公司……"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["顧部長立雄：這樣子的話，取得這樣一個認證所需要的費用就可以比較大幅的降低，尤其現在的意願上面，如果他能夠加入這個供應鏈，他就會有一個產業規模的商機，因為如果單靠軍方，坦白講，軍方需求就這麼大，他們如果不加入這個供應鏈，就沒辦法產生一定的產業規模，所以如果看到這樣子的前景，他們就會有這個意願，有意願的話，這些無人機的公司規模大小不一，基本上要有那個能力來加入CMMC，我們當然也希望美國能夠協助在這裡成立認證單位。"],["羅委員美玲：這目前有在談了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有。"],["羅委員美玲：已經有在談了？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["羅委員美玲：美國是認同這個部分的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：美國承諾會儘量來研議……"],["羅委員美玲：對，我們比較擔心的是，如果沒有拿到CMMC的認證，就拿不到美國的訂單，這是讓我們比較擔心的部分，所以既然我們都已經參與了一系列的美國工業會議，當然這個部分我也希望，在國際上我們能夠取得所謂工業產業的認證，我們可以加入這一系列的行業裡面，所以我是想說，CMMC如果真的無法導入的話，那其他折衷的方式可能要儘快去跟美方做討論，本席希望能夠看到後續有比較……因為其實CMMC不只是這次我有詢問，我記得上個會期已經有委員詢問過，我想部長的答案跟今天的答案是差不多的，我本來想說今天會有一個進展，結果目前還是在談的階段，還沒有一個明確的答案出來，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：我們一直在積極地交流對談當中，我想有一些部分，就是說要進入到供應鏈，第一個讓它看到前景，它就會願意積極來做。第二個，導入的那些部分可能要進行一個實體隔離，然後來達成這個，講白一點，就是它有關的那一塊，必須要跟其他的部分來進行一個實體隔離，然後就這個部分來進行認證，應該是會比較容易達成美方的要求。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，因為主席站起來了，謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅美玲委員，部長請回。","下一位請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:09:06","end_time":"2024-10-07T10:05:11+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155095","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","duration":546,"start_time":"2024-10-07T09:56:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4936a869186d9037d770e1b3eec0bde5d39772a8a89b87e038203c53ec228b776055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.391593750000002,"end":16.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.04096875,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.976593750000003,"end":24.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.85409375,"end":25.664093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.934093750000002,"end":31.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.519718750000003,"end":44.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.361593750000004,"end":50.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.976593750000006,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.30096875,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.86534375,"end":65.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.82659375,"end":67.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.41284375000001,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.34471875,"end":77.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.24659375,"end":79.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.13659375,"end":83.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.47784375,"end":85.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.82346875,"end":91.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.61159375000001,"end":98.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.96909375,"end":107.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.09846875000001,"end":110.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.16971875,"end":112.94159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.09346875000001,"end":119.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.34971875000001,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.07346875000002,"end":137.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.96721875,"end":138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謝謝委員那這個這次的補助分兩個部分一個部分就是貸款的補助那貸款的補助大概就是我們會比照楷米台風那就是針對小微企業、中小企業以及有稅期登記的這個企業最高補助50萬然後補貼這個利息全額半年"},{"start":164.658,"end":190.232,"text":"所以這個是第一項利息補貼的部分那第二項就是剛剛委員垂詢的就是一些家電的補助這應該是精準講應該是節能的補助節能設備的補助那其實我們知道高雄很多的商圈也受到影響我們其實都有把它納進來好 次長如果是這樣我覺得我希望經濟部能夠再發一些更精準的"},{"start":191.172,"end":209.229,"text":"文字或者是圖卡包括給各縣市政府包括高雄市政府都必須要有這樣的精準的訊息提供另外你們剛剛講到的這些補助都是補助給商圈但是有很多的受災戶其實是一般的民眾"},{"start":210.45,"end":237.52,"text":"比如說像在大寮我們到昨天下午一直還在協調大寮還有很多人是停電而且是停電大概超過48小時以上如果對於這些家戶因為停電所造成的不便或損失是不是經濟部也能夠演繹給他們有一些減免不管是電費或者是其他的這一些稅制上的減免這個是不是能夠請經濟部下去演繹"},{"start":238.393,"end":247.25,"text":"好 我們再來研究一下好 這個我在這邊也是具體建議啦那請次長您把這個帶回去讓經濟部去做研議好嗎好 那我接下來請國發會請國發會的主委"},{"start":252.254,"end":280.344,"text":"來 主委 這個剛剛您談到很多未來的這個發展的這些契機國發會在8月份的景氣燈號再亮紅燈你們說的分數大概39分是逼近了新高但是我覺得台灣現在大家都一直在關注AI產業包括主委你們談的內容很多都是跟AI相關的但是台灣應該不只AI我們要關注的地方也不只AI"},{"start":281.664,"end":303.8,"text":"來主委這個看一下公總他們發表了2024的白皮書他們認為產業失衡加劇現在有比過去他們一直在講缺水缺電更嚴重的問題就是缺工缺人才我們剛剛講到台電的維修其實台電也嚴重短缺維修的人力"},{"start":305.201,"end":329.918,"text":"這個都是不爭的事實當然國發會一直在談到這個外補人力主委您看一下這個是也是勞動部發表的今年10月底還比7月底的人力需求竟增加5.6萬人10月就比7月還要增加5.6萬人請問這些人力從哪裡來"},{"start":334.468,"end":354.562,"text":"主委你們有沒有跟勞動部討論過或者是說國發會有沒有一套策略勞動部我們在我們的定期的這個會議裡面勞動部會負責在主要是勞工的部分那是因為是以他為主政單位我們只有在那個會議裡面做檢疫的溝通並沒有談那麼細"},{"start":356.484,"end":376.18,"text":"這個我覺得是這樣啦齁國發會其實很多東西齁是主導國家發展所以比如說剛剛陳寧菲委員問到你們問到您的那個問題誰要來主責當然是國發會要主責啊結果你說叫提案的單位來主責我現在就問你嘛人力短缺的問題整個人力配置的規劃"},{"start":377.601,"end":392.165,"text":"當然也是國發會要來主責啊勞動部是依照這個現實的發展各產業的需求去釋放但是整體人力的配置規劃這當然是國發會要來主責是的整體是由我們在規劃沒有錯這個講到中階人力"},{"start":395.666,"end":409.845,"text":"的短缺,你現在除了我剛剛講啦,比如說這抽單慷慨,台電維修人力的短缺,照護輔佐員的短缺,防務員的短缺,物流運輸業的短缺營造業的短缺,等等"},{"start":411.269,"end":425.298,"text":"這一些人要從哪裡來?人要從哪裡補?你們現在提到的有一些部分說比如說靠大專院校梅和喬外申從事中間的工作或者是這些移工讓他久用服務"},{"start":426.84,"end":444.855,"text":"但是主委我還是看不出你現階段我們能夠多久之內補足這些人力這個當然是這個所謂的外國專業人才的纜財僱用辦法我們推了這麼多年現在也不過才五萬多人那"},{"start":448.443,"end":457.156,"text":"這個國發會說2028年要增加到12萬人是2028年增加12萬人呢還是從以前到2028年累計要有12萬人"},{"start":459.777,"end":485.175,"text":"就是從現在開始2024年到2028年要有12萬人要有12萬嘛,好,4年之內要有12萬那4年之內如何有12萬你這個是全球精英喔,就是這個專業人才喔但是我跟您談到如果再加上剛剛的這些中階技術人力短缺的部分加起來所需要的人力比其實是相對多的"},{"start":486.778,"end":498.159,"text":"國發會應該要擔起責任去做所謂的人力短缺、缺工缺財的這一些整體勞動力的配置主委您同意我的建議嗎"},{"start":501.717,"end":515.064,"text":"呃整體配置你不能讓你不能讓勞動部一個人去決定他營造業要放多少人服務業要放多少人教育要放多少人所以我覺得你們應該把"},{"start":516.865,"end":539.801,"text":"這個整合起來針對臺灣整體的缺工、缺財的問題做一個整體性的盤點主席已經站起來了啦這個是我們已經有負起責任在做整體的盤點也包括勞動人口的需求所以整體盤點包括整個政策上面應該如何放寬跟落實好不好這個有機會我們再詳談這個我們可以來往這方向來"},{"start":546.774,"end":546.937,"text":"消息。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:56:05 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10:05:11","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部次長就「我國政府對新創及中小企業扶植政策執行狀況與未來精進措施（含政策、人才、法制、稅制、資金、區域平衡等六大面向）」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155095","gazette":{"lineno":178,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時56分）謝謝主席，我先請一下經濟部次長。"],["主席：請何次長。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：次長，颱風剛過，我還是要先請教您一下，山陀兒颱風造成高雄大概超過十五萬戶停電，我想你們經濟部也應該有全程掌控。首先我還是要表達對台電的所有工作同仁這三天以來不眠不休，到今天早上、到剛剛為止還在大樹修補最後零星幾戶。次長您看一下，這個是這次台電跨區搶修的工作，大寮、林園算是這次停電受創最嚴重的地區，當然總統昨天到了金山、萬里去勘災，媒體的報導說，總統說電器購買跟貸款最高補助50萬元，所以很多人就想說，為什麼金山、萬里可以補助電器，那我們高雄這次風災受損也嚴重，為什麼沒有？這個相對剝奪感是很重的，到底這個補助是怎麼來的？因為現在還有一些消息說，連家具都可以補助、連鐵捲門都可以補助、連鋁門窗都可以補助，真的是這樣嗎？可是我上了你們經濟部的網站去看，這個補助內容跟過去的災後補助是一樣的嘛，而且那個補助最高是50萬，所以你每一個品項都有它的補助最高上限，你們是不是希望趁這個時候把一些老舊的電器汰換成節能的？可是這樣簡短的談話其實就會造成很大很大的誤解。次長，我請教你，我剛剛舉的那些例子有哪些地方是不對的？您可不可以利用這個時間完整或者是簡單清楚的說明？"],["何次長晉滄：好，謝謝委員。這次的補助分兩個部分，一個部分就是貸款的補助，貸款的補助我們會比照凱米颱風，就是針對小微企業、中小企業以及有稅籍登記的企業，最高補助50萬，然後補貼利息全額半年，這個是第一項利息補貼的部分；第二項是剛剛委員垂詢的，就是一些家電的補助，精準講這應該是節能的補助、節能設備的補助，我們知道高雄很多商圈也受到影響，我們其實都有把它納進來。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，次長，如果是這樣，我希望經濟部能夠再發一些更精準的文字或者是圖卡，包括給各縣市政府、包括高雄市政府，都必須要有這樣精準的訊息提供。"],["何次長晉滄：好。"],["邱委員議瑩：另外，你們剛剛講到了這些補助都是補助給商圈，但是有很多受災戶其實是一般的民眾，比如說在大寮，我們到昨天下午一直還在協調，大寮還有很多人是停電，而且是停電大概超過四十八小時以上，如果對於這些家戶因為停電所造成的不便或損失，是不是經濟部也能夠研議給他們有一些減免？不管是電費或者是其他稅制上的減免，這個是不是能夠請經濟部下去研議？"],["何次長晉滄：好，我們再來研究一下。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，這個我在這邊也是具體建議，請次長您把這個帶回去讓經濟部去研議好嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：是，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員議瑩：我接下來請國發會。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委，剛剛您談到很多未來的發展契機，國發會在8月份的景氣燈號再亮紅燈，你們說分數大概39分是逼近了新高，但是我覺得臺灣現在大家都一直在關注AI產業，包括主委你們談的內容很多都是跟AI相關，但是臺灣應該不只AI，我們要關注的地方也不只AI。","來，主委，這個看一下，工總他們發表了2024的白皮書，他們認為產業失衡加劇，現在有比過去他們一直在講的缺水、缺電更嚴重的問題，就是缺工、缺人才！我們剛剛講到台電的維修，其實台電也嚴重短缺維修的人力，這個都是不爭的事實。當然，國發會一直談到外補人力，主委，您看一下，這個也是勞動部發表的，今年10月底還比7月底的人力需求淨增加5.6萬人，10月就比7月還要增加5.6萬人。請問這些人力從哪裡來？主委，你們有沒有跟勞動部討論過，或者是國發會有沒有一套策略？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：關於勞動部，在我們的定期會議裡面，勞動部主要負責的是勞工的部分，因為是以它為主政單位，我們只有在那個會議裡面做簡易的溝通，並沒有談那麼細。"],["邱委員議瑩：我覺得是這樣，國發會其實很多東西是主導國家發展，比如說剛剛陳亭妃委員問到您的那個問題，誰要來主責？當然是國發會要主責啊！結果你說叫提案的單位來主責，我現在就問你人力短缺的問題，整個人力配置的規劃當然也是國發會要來主責啊！勞動部是依照現實的發展、各產業的需求去釋放，但是整體人力的配置、規劃，當然是國發會要來主責嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，整體是由我們在規劃，沒有錯。"],["邱委員議瑩：講到中階人力的短缺，現在除了我剛剛講的，比如說粗重的工作、台電維修人力的短缺、照護輔佐員的短缺、防護員的短缺、物流運輸業的短缺、營造業的短缺等等，這些人要從哪裡來？人要從哪裡補？你們現在提到的有一些部分，比如說靠大專院校媒合僑外生從事中階的工作，或者是這些移工讓他久用服務，但是，主委，我還是看不出現階段我們能夠在多久之內補足這些人力，這個當然是所謂的外國專業人才攬才僱用辦法，我們推了這麼多年，現在也不過才五萬多人，國發會說2028年要增加到12萬人，是2028年增加12萬人呢？還是從以前到2028年累計要有12萬人？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就是從現在開始，2024年到2028年要有12萬人。"],["邱委員議瑩：要有12萬嘛，4年之內要有12萬。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：那4年之內如何有12萬？你這個是全球菁英，就是專業人才喔！但是我跟您談到，如果再加上剛剛這些中階技術人力短缺的部分，加起來所需要的人力比其實是相對多的。國發會應該要擔起責任，去做所謂的人力短缺、缺工、缺才整體勞動力的配置，主委，您同意我的建議嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：整體配置必須是……"],["邱委員議瑩：你不能讓勞動部一個人去決定營造業要放多少人、服務業要放多少人、教育要放多少人，所以我覺得你們應該把這個整合起來，針對臺灣整體的缺工、缺才問題做一個整體性的盤點。主席已經站起來了啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們已經有負起責任在做整體的盤點。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也包括勞動人口的需求。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以整體盤點包括整個政策上面應該如何放寬跟落實，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["邱委員議瑩：這個有機會我們再詳談。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，這個我們可以往這個方向來努力。"],["主席：好，非常感謝邱議瑩委員，請主委回座。","邱議瑩委員質詢是本會的楷模，賴瑞隆比照辦理！下一位質詢請賴瑞隆，發言時間8分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-3","speakers":["邱志偉","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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這個我接受"},{"start":191.004,"end":198.331,"text":"我怎麼會不知道站在司法院或者大法官的一個立場裡面他們比較傾向於廢死的主張廢死我也不認為是一個罪惡喔我也認為這個是一個價值喔那但是這個社會以現在的氛圍可能大家認為說感痛你感動得了但是去把整個法律正當程序去把它更嚴謹的話"},{"start":215.097,"end":224.252,"text":"本席是覺得是認同的喔站在法務部的立場比如說一個兇殺案發生連續殺死了好多人請勞官當然是具體辦法給求刑阿"},{"start":225.626,"end":245.112,"text":"一審的法院尤其是一審的法院那個時候整個社會的氛圍一定是對他產生很大的一個壓力一審去判處死刑我覺得是很有可能的可是到了二審呢他在檢視法律的時候他看你偵查程序裡面或者認為說他好像還不用到死刑"},{"start":247.208,"end":271.644,"text":"想法會有所不同你是完全要讓他從這個社會裡面去把他讓他消失掉還是說讓他有機會重新再回到這個社會從來就是爭論從過去的犯罪學的那麼多學派裡面爭論你也找不到一致的一個答案我簡單講好了啦今天如果說底下有一個人去殺了好多人"},{"start":273.567,"end":278.649,"text":"碰到在檢察官偵查的時候或法案在審判的時候跟你說我錯了趕快讓我死吧這個符合民意的期待嗎像這種情況我都覺得太便宜他了我都認為你想死了就解脫我之所以死刑的存在就是要報復你啊我應該讓你生不如死才對啊所以我一直認為這個問題法務部沒錯"},{"start":301.337,"end":328.436,"text":"法務部更主張覺得什麽死刑廢除掉那整個社會的治安法律的一個秩序誰來維護法務部講到我的立場我就認為沒有不對喔但是司法院你再去做一個審量考量的話我也沒有我認為讓整個法律正當程序讓他更嚴謹這個也是對的喔所以我期許啊司法院你到立法院來啊就按照整個憲政的一個秩序啊我自己設計啊我也不好意思跟你講話講太大聲"},{"start":330.404,"end":356.35,"text":"你若無表現比較小啦,不然怎麼說?抬頭挺胸,不卑不亢,這個才叫做法律人,這個沒有對錯。立法委員的質詢常常在呼應短期的民粹,所以那一把尺還是要堅持住。你像比如說,我們整個法律的一個規定就講得非常清楚,"},{"start":357.909,"end":383.654,"text":"你說到底這個整個憲法是國家誰最大當然憲法最大當然要拘束各個機關你去看看我們憲法第78條賦予整個我們現在大法官裡面他去解釋法律跟命令的一個義務那你如果說大法官在審查說到底這個法律合不合憲當然是大法官憲法法庭他是自己去做出獨立的一個判斷"},{"start":384.827,"end":388.722,"text":"那所以啊所以啊我在這個地方啊一直針對這樣的一個問題啊"},{"start":390.931,"end":417.828,"text":"這次的憲判字做出來以後我也有很大的一個感慨你說4至185號裡面司法院解釋憲法他也明文講得很清楚居宿各機關的效力4至405號也講得很清楚表明得很清楚立法權甚至於不能一躍司法院所做的憲法上的一個解釋只是說本院立法院他在立法的時候我們有自然形成的這樣的一個自由我們該怎麼立法不是你司法院管得到的但重點是說立出來的東西"},{"start":420.39,"end":441.23,"text":"要接受到整個憲法法庭這都受到大法官我以前說叫大法官會議受到他的一個拘束這個是很明確的一個揭示啦除非我們不採立憲主義啦每一個國家採的制度不一樣啊你如果有老共的地方什麼你憲法很大什麼你司法案什麼憲法法庭很大我習近平最大帝制的時候就是皇帝講的最大"},{"start":445.492,"end":456.974,"text":"你說這有沒有什麼道理 這也沒道理啊這就制度有所不同啊各有所失 各失其職啊但我有幾個問題要來做一個請教啦就是說我們如果說真的要去採硬報的話那是不是你教育的部分都不用了如果全部要採硬報的話法務部也必須要去做思考啊那你監獄裡面的矯正的一個制度"},{"start":473.666,"end":489.111,"text":"那個觀念也會顛覆掉喔也會顛覆掉喔所以博定我知道你的立場這個法務部會有壓力司法院當然會有壓力但司法院都不應該有壓力司法院都不應該受到民粹的一個影響林本人就不應該啊這個制度是要可長可遠"},{"start":495.987,"end":510.886,"text":"很多立法院的委員他認為死刑怎麼可以把我給廢掉這樣的一個主張他其實利益也都良善喔利益也都良善喔我也不認為說死刑廢掉以後啊整個國家"},{"start":511.727,"end":528.41,"text":"的好像這個社會秩序啊或者說整個治安全部都會崩垮掉很多替代方式啊我在講的啦我都一直想因為我很怕被人家講說我很不文明啊不然我就覺得死刑都太便宜了這一些所謂的犯罪行為人欸比如說叫我來做出一個判決的話這些人到底要不要判處死刑罪行非常重、非常可惡手段非常殘忍"},{"start":541.479,"end":559.876,"text":"啊真的他跟你說我真的好殘忍給我死吧你就真的叫我當法官我就讓你死哪那麼便宜你我就是讓你生不如死所以我這樣講也不代表我這個觀念有所不對啊每一個人對這一個罪行對他的厭惡度感受會不同法官也是人啊"},{"start":565.475,"end":582.141,"text":"法官當然也會有所不同所以我看到這個憲判字第8號我確實是感受到以後判處死刑會變更困難但是相對的也要讓你整個因為它是重罪人命確實是不可剝奪它很有可能一有閃失的話那確實不可恢復讓整個法律正當性更嚴謹我是覺得是好事但是法務部你也不用有壓力"},{"start":594.591,"end":599.264,"text":"今天我也不用有壓力,我就把你具體抽取死刑,我的立場哪有不對?"},{"start":600.649,"end":614.875,"text":"我站在法務部長的立場哪有不對?我站在檢察官的立場哪有不對?你就是該死我檢察官本來就是要打擊犯罪可是站在法院的立場就覺得說你當初在社會案、刑案當下發生的時候社會那裡那麼轟動那大家怕也怕死社會老百姓這樣要求你嘛所以檢察官這樣去做是對的啊可是問題是說那法院呢?法院你說完全都是照著檢察官的那就不用審法院了,我們都有檢察官就好了"},{"start":628.36,"end":646.02,"text":"所以我本來其實還要針對我們整個再審那個新事實新證據那個部分再跟你們來做一個探討但是今天我也不敢耽誤其他同仁的一個時間但是我倒覺得說在討論到底要不要讓它實行的時候其實"},{"start":648.168,"end":661.074,"text":"大家都說得利得好啦沒有壓力啦法務部你也沒有壓力啦大膽的講出你自己的想法啦我就是反對廢死啦法務部的立場也可以也很正常啦你站在司法院的立場我讓你整個法律程序更嚴謹這也都是合理的啦以上我不知道秘書長你有看到嗎簡單給我回應一下"},{"start":668.097,"end":670.558,"text":"所以憲法法庭其實他所做出來的判決他當然是拘束各個機關吧"},{"start":688.26,"end":704.306,"text":"當然因為他是對憲法這個解釋所有全國的各機關當然都要在憲法之下才能夠去行使職權我們不用採立憲主義可以不拘束啊採帝制就可以不拘束啊皇帝下個命令就可以啊我用簡單給他回應一下"},{"start":724.769,"end":725.054,"text":"在於來訪"},{"start":732.29,"end":750.717,"text":"世紀的一個爭論的一個問題在社會產生波瀾很正常啦各有立場你們就好好去把它做堅持沒有人可以講你們對還是不對就是說理嘛就這麼簡單嘛你說在野黨的主張廢食的合不合理我也認為他講得非常有道理你要把它踩住的話你認為讓整個法律政策程序更嚴謹的話沒有什麼不對啦好不好一起加油啦"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:49:50 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委員 這個我們來列入考慮好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":292.273,"end":319.305,"text":"然後最近新竹武風鄉有跟我要求說看看能不能有一個固定式的那個激勢器因為很多人都到山上就丟棄垃圾那他們的環境部給我們的答案是說要用移動式可是移動式要有人力我們要的是固定式所以固定式的話就是不予補助那我想說讓部長來知道這個問題你可以想辦法逐年編列不一定要一次到位嘛你可以每年每年編啊"},{"start":320.585,"end":348.682,"text":"委員這個我請我們署長去現場勘查好不好OK好謝謝還有就是關於我們高空作業車現在你只有補助垃圾車跟資源回收車可是山上很多是樹枝他會打到那個電線然後造成停電就算沒有下雨也會停電那就是因為沒有這些高空作業車可是高空作業車他們問的時候就說不是環境不管的然後跟縣政府說縣政府沒有錢那到底是誰要來付這個高空作業車"},{"start":350.126,"end":368.973,"text":"如果他是這個縣道的話應該是縣政府啦因為這個是道路 這個我們環境部沒有相關這樣的用車環保局也沒有這個用車所以是縣政府縣政府或是說公路總局等等公路總局看那個路是什麼誰在主管的可是原住民的路常常不是縣道啊也不是常常是農路啊"},{"start":370.183,"end":398.417,"text":"所以我在想觀光作業在這個部分還是要去想辦法解決而不是一直互相推來推去現在卓西鄉公所田鄉長跟我要一個希望能夠找到一個資源就是我們找不到所以這個部分就很像就就反正就推來推去找不到一個香港當然可以對應最後一個就是我們關於原鄉發展的露營觀光現在最多是在南投跟苗栗那現在一般失業廢棄物處理就是說我們的那個"},{"start":399.868,"end":420.722,"text":"我們先講到那個垃圾隨帶徵收的部分目前是堅實相第一個就是4848塊對一般民眾來講這是48塊是非常實在是太高了能不能因為他他已經通過這個法律了代表會也公告所以我的意思是說是不是我們環境部可以幫忙這個錢至少50或者是45啊這樣"},{"start":424.746,"end":440.442,"text":"這個是我們的會計務協助處理會隨代徵收那現在的話他要徵收的對象的話是民眾所以的話有一個價錢在那邊那是不是容許就是說我們再去跟這個實際上去跟他訪問他的一個所謂的成本的估算那我們看看有沒有什麼可以協助的地方"},{"start":441.122,"end":467.37,"text":"對因為48塊確實太高好不好然後那污水處理廠的部分就是我們常常都在水源地然後發展觀光他一定要水保可是這些費用還要叫我們原住民來自己出比如說埋設管線啊管路啊還有水土保持計畫書啊這些對原住民來說這是非常大的成本然後已經夠難合法化了結果呢這個法規一出來"},{"start":468.13,"end":496.896,"text":"只要觸犯這個法律就要罰300萬你說誰要開露營區包委其實這個開露營區它是一個營利行為那我自己也去路過幾個營那特別是靠山區那其實他們都做得很好啦那其實我也特別問了我們的司長其實那個花費沒有幾百萬啦幾十萬而已啦然後其實這個是一個因為你要營利當然要以永續為目的那你如果沒有處理好的話那當然這個遊客就不會想去了"},{"start":497.296,"end":519.341,"text":"所以這個我們還是鼓勵他們要自己去做三名還是跟我提出了這個建議希望說還是由中央來幫忙至少有一些補助啦因為我們現在你看嘛你要開個錄音區已經要花很多錢了他又要再因為這個法規又要再偵測我們的污水處理廠沒有錯這個這些事情很重要可是費用非常的高昂對一般原住民來講是非常的高"},{"start":520.23,"end":520.851,"text":"我會撐得住"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:50:02 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個地方討論過那今天你新上任我論和也要把這個概念再講一次"},{"start":165.029,"end":191.09,"text":"跨區的時候你要讓同樣是直轄市政府比如說桃園跟新北你們要去談本來難度就很高嘛因為大家一樣大誰也不服誰也沒辦法整合跨區的公共政策問題就是需要中央部會來介入協調嘛那我想請問環境部有沒有針對現在的裸露的露天的所謂的垃圾轉運站然後它造成的地方民怨的困擾有沒有辦法透過跨域合作的方式跨域治理的方式來處理你們有沒有做相關的盤點"},{"start":192.857,"end":195.659,"text":"我們希望看到的所謂區域聯盟機制是中央有所鼓勵"},{"start":222.074,"end":238.405,"text":"也就是說我做了區域聯防增加了垃圾處理的效率他其實有完成你中央的大的政策目標那我願意響應這樣是用這樣方法做的請問他得到什麼有沒有好處比如說政策更多的利多啊專案的補貼啊或者是中央在哪些地方的一些特別的支持有沒有一些這樣的機制的設計讓這件事情變得有可能"},{"start":241.067,"end":264.285,"text":"因為現在講說我們要把垃圾如果要拜託新北幫忙處理這樣我們可以在不找新的地方的情況下處理垃圾轉運的問題可是主力放在那個地方不好談那我們中央有沒有什麼政策的誘因讓他從不可能談變成可能談甚至有機會解決好委員我們來設計一下好不好給我們一點點時間我們去到地方來處理好不好這我希望中央可以針對區域聯防的部分給予實質的政策鼓勵"},{"start":265.186,"end":273.78,"text":"好不好那其他垃圾減量當然該做的就做我相信只要方向對也合理大家也都會給予支持啦希望部長費一點心思在這個小的題目上面好嗎OK好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:08:55 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比呢第一類的戰鬥部隊邊線比都不到八成那假設啦我換個問題方式那你覺得如果現在的官兵缺額是缺在哪個階層缺在軍官缺在士官還是缺在士兵"},{"start":67.239,"end":93.88,"text":"我想應該是士兵到這個其實我們看得到的軍官士官長不缺二等兵也不缺缺的是什麼基層的士官上等兵和一兵為什麼因為我們的上士以上是跟我們一般的這個勞工的平均金融性薪資已經可以達到了但講的是薪資我們來看一下其實是制度我們看一下我當兵的時候是兩年兵"},{"start":94.6,"end":119.446,"text":"那時候前6個月是二兵6個月之後可以升為一兵一年後你就升為上兵所以退伍前的半年我是上兵假設是這樣但是我不是上兵退伍我是下士退伍為什麼因為我在中心訓練兩個月的時候他們就來挑那我被編入了士官隊我受了士官訓所以我以下士退役的退伍的所以目前因為我們兵役制度過去是4個月4個月只能二兵"},{"start":120.026,"end":123.508,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":149.246,"end":178.255,"text":"我想我們在志願役招募上面還是會來加強啦那一年期的義務役服完之後是他就是一兵了啦那時候會缺上兵跟士官了對不對委員好我跟委員報告一下就是說其實我們兵啊不管是招募的或義務役的我們都會盡量去滿足尤其我們從114年開始兵的緣合會越來越多我直接講啦我們有前一段時間我們急缺哨位啦"},{"start":178.795,"end":203.46,"text":"因為我們自願意的從軍的軍校畢業的是中衛起跳啦過去有預觀到說哨衛排長不缺後來有段是缺哨衛軍官現在我們慢慢充實了招募之後哨衛軍官不缺了往下跳我們也要看齁其實目前的基層軍事官兵的來源是這樣子軍官、正期生、專科、專業軍官班還有大專儲備軍官團服役年限長他可以終生來服役他有退休縫"},{"start":204.64,"end":207.061,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":223.948,"end":249.742,"text":"好,我們多少義務一轉服志願一成功的,您覺得滿不滿意?部長你看看我們社會青年從社會青年穆德的達成率都在八成左右,八成五但是在興訓轉服的人的達成率啊,超標啊超標,我們預計要五千八,來了六千三部長了解什麼原因嗎?如果你穆兵的目標都可以達成,為什麼現在還有缺額?為什麼現在還缺一兵?為什麼現在還上兵?為什麼還缺士官?為什麼?"},{"start":250.97,"end":270.037,"text":"看下一個圖啦不是目標達標要留得住啦你的達標率九成多但是你離營了兩年後四年後離營的為什麼會離營兩個原因他起碼不續留阿第二個他想留我部隊也不要他為什麼不適合從事軍旅生涯嘛我會太處嘛"},{"start":270.97,"end":295.274,"text":"部長同不同意這樣的分析?是好往下看所以說我們要知道招募人才怎麼樣才不會被太處什麼時候招現場的軍官知道目前我們人才招募各部隊在那些義務役入伍訓的時候什麼時候招一開始第一週招還是8週之後招還是16週要退伍了才來招部長如果是你你會什麼時候去招"},{"start":297.193,"end":297.233,"text":"第1週末"},{"start":309.79,"end":327.927,"text":"第一週連藝男自己都不曉得自己是不是軍女生啊你知道第一週的課程是什麼第一週都是室內課調試第一週的興訊所有的阿兵哥都在聽什麼來自包括調查局包括空軍機場來這邊招募啦招募他去戰四年的衛兵啦"},{"start":329.659,"end":357.966,"text":"如果說他16個星期滿了他離開了你去招募他他也不留啦四個月我已經到了我要給我人生規劃合理的招募時間點對於我們部隊留才很重要你讓他受了8週的新訓經歷了軍旅的一個基本不下面的訓練他自己知道他適不適合部隊也可以評估他適不適合這時候去招才會怎麼樣容易騙但是很快就走部長你同意嗎招募的時間要不要檢討"},{"start":359.805,"end":379.965,"text":"委員的意見我覺得你知不知道目前都是第一週在招第一週有沒有實戰的課有沒有實體連體能訓練都沒有這時候的遇難到部隊裡面都是用什麼薪水很高啦離家很近啦單位任你選啦這樣招得進來都超標但是留不留得住"},{"start":381.058,"end":405.673,"text":"留不留得住?檢討一下。好不好?第二個。這個委員的意見我覺得蠻好的。齊滿不蓄留。為什麼?下市薪水快4萬,二兵3萬6,看起來不錯,差不多,但是期待值不同。我下市我可以買賣,我如果是士官學校出來的,我從下市開始幹。我幹到士官長,我可以幹到25年。我的退伍的時候,我的待遇呢,如果一等士官長,我可以接近將官。"},{"start":406.909,"end":420.751,"text":"有鐘聲奉我說二兵你人才招募我我留四年我留八年我不會留一輩子為什麼我不可能拿到鐘聲奉是不是這樣子所以當我們對於短一期的士官兵的時候我們的招募要講的待遇我們來看一下"},{"start":422.39,"end":450.143,"text":"現在戰鬥兵的二兵戰鬥的二兵加起來看起來也不少喔四萬一千三比我們平均性是高很多喔但是他卻是24小時要待勤要待命備勤啊尤其是艦艇兵你就算是人家工作八小時領四萬塊你在艦艇上領四萬塊你八小時下了哨你還是在艦艇上啊所以很多人鼓勵年輕人要存第一桶金來海軍艦艇兵保證你可以四年存一百萬部長你同不同意"},{"start":455.032,"end":478.007,"text":"我以後很多認識的一些年輕人他們都告訴我從軍不錯還只要志願去海軍去艦艇兵四年一桶金一百萬退伍回來考大學還有加分大學四年的學會不用靠別人我是在幫你們招募喔我要做正面的宣傳喔但是我們想想看其他人會這樣想嗎我們看看其他國家以色列他的平均二兵月薪大概十萬塊"},{"start":479.506,"end":501.938,"text":"現在以下衝突為了國家賣命應該的新加坡他的國民所得比我們高他的一般戰鬥兵大概5萬2台幣考量到我們的國民所得不同美國更多了10領13萬還配宿舍你會不會覺得如果我們短一期的士官兵他如果10年後沒有終生夢可以期待現在的待遇要不要提高"},{"start":506.394,"end":525.179,"text":"要知道短一期的十年以下的他是二類哦他退伍了之後他是二類他是農民啊第二類的他是沒有這些其他退伍其他的軍官退下來的月推秋縫的部長你覺得咧你會覺得我們國軍基層的士兵士官待遇需要再加強"},{"start":526.941,"end":548.37,"text":"跟委員報告我現在正在召會進行演議委員的意見我非常值得參考我會把它納入我們部內在討論的時候一個課題非常感謝部長我希望不要拿我們的基層的世關面的待遇去跟他同年齡的年輕人在社會上的平均薪資中位數來比不要這樣比要跨國比"},{"start":549.52,"end":573.221,"text":"而且不要跟士兵跟士兵比要士兵跟軍官比軍官有月退休奉的期待他的職業生涯現在待遇差一點他願意接受但是士官士兵短一期的十年內就退了沒有終身奉你們要在限職的待遇上予以調升讓他覺得為國家服務為國家奉獻保衛社會有尊嚴而且有好的待遇同不同意"},{"start":575.441,"end":584.974,"text":"委員的意見我會放在心裡面我會來好好的不只放在心裡面希望你們勇敢的做出來好不好我們讓我們的部隊我們的基層士官兵他們樂於為國效了好不好好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:48:25 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麻煩請法務部部長麻煩部長"},{"start":15.08,"end":39.487,"text":"好 委員好 部長 剛剛牛雪婷講說不知道會不會是狗肺火車啊 我們已經擔憂了 這根本就狗肺火車因為大法官做出這樣的一個解釋之後 真的會讓國人很擔心 台灣是不是之後是非不分殺人 不管是有冤有仇 無冤無仇 殺人就應該償命"},{"start":41.67,"end":56.528,"text":"因為你是殺人啊重點是殺人這件事情可是到最後現在變成是好像我們的標準已經浮動了那我再請教當然個案很難做一個釐清跟討論可是本席不禁想到上個禮拜"},{"start":57.898,"end":74.603,"text":"本席新北市發生一件非常令人難過的事情一個毒販開車我們有一個英勇的員警所長去盤查看他覺得奇怪颱風天前夕怎麼會停在路邊去盤查這個毒販"},{"start":76.724,"end":102.211,"text":"心生恐懼或是有任何的狀況他駕車逃逸讓這個所長掛在那個門窗外面到最後所長被毒販為了要擺脫那個擁擠那個所長往護欄旁邊撞造成所長因為這樣被撞擊過大離開了這一個毒蟲這個毒販已經多次前科而且當天是獨駕"},{"start":105.269,"end":118.684,"text":"本席以及國人不禁要問如果以現在大法官的釋憲這樣的一個做法來講的話這個讀寵是不是到時候不會被判釋憲?跟委員報告因為大法官釋憲他是針對"},{"start":120.981,"end":123.303,"text":"他原本是在本席的選區三支當所長之後到主委當所長"},{"start":146.624,"end":165.113,"text":"他甚至我聽很多的員警同仁講說他已經有念應該是碩士還是博士學歷也非常好非常盡責那之後調去才不到兩年的時間那部長就直接請問了以現在的這樣狀況如果到最後這樣獨從"},{"start":166.909,"end":191.399,"text":"我跟他也無冤無仇我也不知道他誰但他犯下這樣的一個犯刑就是法理難容啊那如果法理難容的情況到時候變成是我們一審、二審、三審還要幾個職業法官都一致同意甚至你剛剛講了如果說他不是當初以殺人來做這個犯刑的話說不定他還可以逃過變成只有有期徒刑還不是無期徒刑國人能接受嗎"},{"start":193.055,"end":218.15,"text":"這部分我想檢察官也都是認為這個被告行為可惡而且合乎羈押的一個要件那有逃亡之虞那這部分檢察會申請法官羈押候證那我這個案件剛發生不久那我想這部分檢察會妥適的一個偵辦追究被告的一個犯行從嚴追訴那我想這部分"},{"start":218.85,"end":247.393,"text":"從言罪言可以到什麼程度這部分還要看案情的一個釐清因為我沒辦法跟委員做一個報告是不是說他有獨駕獨駕是獨駕過世致死或是逃逸過世致死那我想這個刑責非常重我想這個檢察委就依照那個證據來認定犯罪事實那我想委員關心的這個問題那我想是不是故意的這部分我想檢察會是一定的來了解釐清部長本席沒有要指導辦案"},{"start":249.005,"end":274.417,"text":"但是看到這樣的一個新聞真的上禮拜我們不要每一次都是今天公祭明天旺祭尤其這個所長他的他還有兩個小孩一個一歲一個四歲真的非常難過真的非常難過拉回來我們這一次講因為我們現在也有推動國民法官法"},{"start":275.287,"end":282.012,"text":"那國民法官法裡面其實它有兩個條件是可以讓國民法官來共同參與的一個是"},{"start":285.529,"end":309.658,"text":"最新10年以上的有期徒刑一個是故意犯罪而發生死亡結果者對不對所以可以讓國民法官共同參與但是現在大法官如果釋憲完之後是不是即便國民法官認為說他是要判死刑但是只要有職業法官不認為不同意的話他一樣不會被判到死刑這個理解是這樣是不是可以請那個司法院來回答"},{"start":318.096,"end":336.391,"text":"國民法官的法庭是三位職業法官跟六位的國民法官那依照這個憲法的話這三位的職業法官那都必須為死刑的這個一致局但是六位國民法官裡面只要有三位三位的話那這樣就達到國民法官的三分之二死刑的這個門檻"},{"start":338.652,"end":353.137,"text":"對 但是本席的問題啊本席的問題是如果說今天叫我剛剛這樣子來討論國民法官六位都認為是說他是應該要判處死刑但只要有一位職業法官不同意或職業法官沒有認為說要判死刑他是不是就可以逃過"},{"start":355.11,"end":374.771,"text":"那這樣我們推動國民法官的意義何在?我們當初推動國民法官的意義不就是認為是說少數的法官讓大家覺得是說恐龍法官也因此抹煞了大部分法官的努力而造成我們認為是說就應該要用正常我們社會大眾共識的一個標準你們廣告做得很好啊找君君"},{"start":375.922,"end":404.698,"text":"找其他那些來拍廣告很好啊本席有看到啊那你不就是要講是說賣菜的大姐也可以來參與這個專家學者也可以來參與一般的市井小民也可以來參與我們就是用我們一般人的常識來去判案那所以六名國民法官比不上一個職業法官要不要修法跟委員報告齁那這個國民法官好當然要配合這個憲判去修但是"},{"start":406.141,"end":422.4,"text":"說那個在一個法官本來的國民法官裡面就是規定說說今天假設有罪有罪判決的話那個職業法官本來介紹要有一位只是說這一憲判要求死刑的只針對死刑不是死刑的部分也沒有這個問題"},{"start":424.421,"end":442.63,"text":"所以我們現在討論就是死刑的部分今天不是我們稍微討論就是死刑的部分當然國人划欄也是死刑的部分啊就認為是說你明明雖然大法官講很好聽叫做合憲啊但叫做有條件合憲結果實質上就是往廢死的方向走所以國人才會划欄嘛才會認為是說是非不分嘛"},{"start":443.564,"end":458.697,"text":"那我現在延續我剛剛一開始的質詢到現在的問題都還是強調既然我們當初認為是說有漏洞我們把它補起來沒想到大法官的視線又再出了一個漏洞那我們要不要補這個漏洞再者你的國民法官法之前就已經講了什麼樣的國民法官是可以參與判刑一個"},{"start":462.961,"end":478.218,"text":"就是犯罪侵本行為10年以上有期徒刑者另外一個是故意犯罪而因而發生死亡結果者換言之你們也認為國民法官要進來就是比較重的犯刑嘛要嘛就10年以上的要嘛就是死亡的"},{"start":479.13,"end":499.196,"text":"所以既然都已經有這樣子的一個前提條件了代表說國民法官審理的案件很有可能是有死刑的裁量空間的那可是大法官給一個巧門只要職業法官三個有一個不同意抱歉你們六個國民法官講不聽不算這樣有嚴重嗎"},{"start":503.752,"end":517.261,"text":"跟委員報告大法官是一再強調判死刑死刑的宣告是無可挽回的所以他要求最嚴謹我當然知道不能挽回阿人死了也不能挽回阿所長離開也不能挽回阿秘書長代秘書長"},{"start":527.473,"end":552.413,"text":"記得一個禮拜前我在總質詢的時候質詢行政院院長那時候的部長也講說要用兩年的時間趕快把漏洞補齊修法那如果說這樣的話我覺得這是一個很大的漏洞本席也會提出相關修法我也希望司法院也要有態度不是說大法官說什麼就算什麼"},{"start":555.686,"end":570.599,"text":"法律制度是我們希望玩一個更好的台灣邁進如同昭偉常講對好人越好壞人越壞而不是好像壞人我們想方設法幫他找找巧門找漏洞然後對於好人這麼好的一個人謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:52:44 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審查委員審查委員審查委員"},{"start":292.859,"end":301.824,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":318.875,"end":336.652,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":340.896,"end":354.865,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":356.906,"end":384.642,"text":"其實所謂的培訓名利從有民防法開始有災害防救法跟替代役就一直在培訓請回答本席的提問9月27號你所提及你預計要培訓多少名利現在的人力的培訓除了志工團體以外都是維持原來的人數那大約是在三十幾萬左右不對我告訴你背景你預計要培訓四十萬的名利你從哪裡"},{"start":385.923,"end":403.849,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全"},{"start":405.729,"end":414.618,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議第4次全體委員會議第5次全體委員會議第6次全體委員會議第7次全體委員會議第8次全體委員會議第9次全體委員會議第10次全體委員會議第11次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第12次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第13次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18"},{"start":423.928,"end":433.493,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":450.703,"end":460.128,"text":"他的三大目標有一個本席要跟你提問的必要時支援軍事行動所以本席要告訴你喔他不是強制性你要怎麼樣去穩定首要第一個要務是維持社會穩定你要做得來你的KPI要怎麼做請你詳細的訊息資料給本席告訴我你的方案你的KPI多久時間多久時間告訴本席"},{"start":481.253,"end":503.235,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":504.639,"end":515.353,"text":"就是你真正的數字要還原現在坊間都說越打越炸一天三個現金額再被欺詐"},{"start":516.502,"end":524.666,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次審查委員會第4次審查委員會第5次審查委員會第6次審查委員會第7次審查委員會第8次審查委員會第8次審查委員會第9次審查委員會第10次審查委員會第11次審查委員會第12次審查委員會第12次審查委員會第13次審查委員會第13次審查委員會第14次審查委員會第14次審查委員會第15次審查委員會第16次審查委員會第17次審查委員會第18次審查委員會第18次審查委員會第19次�"},{"start":540.555,"end":543.76,"text":"一條文修正草案案的總額是89.44元,換句話說你藍主權存的這個金額多於被騙的金額。"},{"start":556.125,"end":571.439,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例四十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例五十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例六十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例五十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例五十一條文"},{"start":574.682,"end":587.691,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全"},{"start":604.902,"end":609.565,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":626.093,"end":642.101,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":647.603,"end":649.504,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條"},{"start":668.216,"end":671.437,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:07:06 - 12:18:43","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","id":"155196"},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:08:04","end_time":"2024-10-07T12:52:01+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155194","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","duration":484,"start_time":"2024-10-07T12:43:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b4939e133fd02131663c7ccd4a11965e08acd736de4ad1ada90ae70ccf99090aa3605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.00909375,"end":5.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.00471875,"end":7.523468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.19846875,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.99971875,"end":11.438468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.282218750000002,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.58159375,"end":22.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.75284375,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.52909375,"end":28.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.39784375,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.65909375,"end":33.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.42659375,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.96096875,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.470968750000004,"end":52.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.13659375,"end":59.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.633468750000006,"end":68.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.84721875000001,"end":78.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.15784375,"end":84.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.11971875,"end":81.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.36784375,"end":116.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.89034375000001,"end":139.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.28346875,"end":152.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.66534375,"end":153.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.35284375,"end":159.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.93846875,"end":161.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.94659375,"end":165.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.99659375000002,"end":166.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.21159375000002,"end":169.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.41784375,"end":179.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.81721875000002,"end":185.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.01034375,"end":187.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.59659375,"end":198.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.03784375,"end":202.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.68284375000002,"end":207.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.63971875000001,"end":211.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.55909375000002,"end":212.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.49971875,"end":223.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.26596875,"end":225.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.27409375000002,"end":227.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.92784375000002,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.45909375000002,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.41221875000002,"end":234.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.25159375,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.36471875,"end":241.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.38971875000001,"end":243.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.06034375000002,"end":245.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.65909375,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.59534375,"end":253.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.51846875,"end":256.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.47596875,"end":258.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.63159375000004,"end":262.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.11221875,"end":264.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.44534375,"end":265.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.62659375000004,"end":270.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.53721875,"end":272.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.07284375,"end":283.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.00346875,"end":285.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.48409375,"end":288.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.62721875,"end":289.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.02784375000005,"end":292.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.45346875,"end":306.51471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謝謝主席喔 司法院秘書長有請麻煩秘書長委員好我們都不知道該怎麼說這個事了 我們就從個案開始講起吧這最近這個退休女老師的先搶再兼再殺的案件 是不是最嚴重犯行"},{"start":25.593,"end":47.203,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個個案個案要我沒有參與這個案子的審理那案子的卷證那法官各省的法官本於他自己審理的結果本於他的本於他的立法院認知去做判斷所以基本上甩鍋給法官嘛他們處理就好對不對他們認定就好對不對由他們來認定因為個案說實話我們沒有接觸到這些卷證那我們"},{"start":53.386,"end":60.168,"text":"現在司法院對於法院的這個大法官的詮釋等於給了一大堆的裁量又修改了門檻現在還要全體一致決"},{"start":79.95,"end":83.192,"text":"實務上來講,會不會造成判決死刑更加困難?"},{"start":111.391,"end":128.664,"text":"不要在那裡繞圈子這報告裡面其實已經寫得很清楚了給了一大堆除了我們剛剛講法官自行可以按新政來認定是否是最嚴重之外你也開了一大堆的後門包含精神障礙等等"},{"start":129.324,"end":153.365,"text":"那我要問的是你們包含前面的這個釋憲的這些詮釋跟你這幾天的報告這些重點我就問你寫了一大堆保障加害者人權的各種條款跟各種條件可是你在詮釋這個憲法的過程中你有沒有考慮法律在社會中公信力的重要性"},{"start":154.406,"end":166.08,"text":"有沒有考量法律有維護社會秩序穩定跟人心安定的作用有沒有有的話請你拿出來講一講我們從來都沒有看到這樣的事情這些概念不重要嗎秘書長"},{"start":167.27,"end":187.039,"text":"跟委員報告我想憲法法庭當然是基於維護憲政秩序的穩定因為憲法是整個國家最基本的高於其他的法律所以他解釋憲法的本質意志保障生命學這個意志我想大家都應該要尊重"},{"start":187.699,"end":209.885,"text":"好 所以你又推給大法官嘛反正就他們解釋了對不對我們回到剛剛那個姦殺案來講這其中有媒體的報導裡面講就是說他之所以可以逃過死刑有很重要的原因是屬於隨機性的並非預謀的所以並非最嚴重之行為好 你從個人角度來講你講預謀可能比隨機更嚴重可是從社會的角度來講難道隨機殺人帶給社會的危害比預謀殺人差嗎"},{"start":213.564,"end":241.229,"text":"我們剛剛幾個委員在下面討論啊我們一致都認為我想人民百姓也都這樣認為隨機殺人對治安的危害對社會的影響是比預謀殺人更嚴重可是從你們的詮釋你們的想像你們的主張裡面它不是最嚴重所以我們可以給它放一條深入這不是胡鬧是什麼呢剛剛我們也討論憲政諮詢講得真好我們在修國會改革法案的時候你講立法院擴權了我告訴你現在"},{"start":242.481,"end":253.79,"text":"司法院擴權啊所有事情由你大法官說了算然後你這個擴權侵害到的是什麼侵害到的是整個社會對於我們司法系統的公信力我今天這樣子的說法秘書長你要反駁嗎"},{"start":260.96,"end":288.01,"text":"跟委員報告那大法官解釋憲法本來就是憲法的意思大法官解釋那各個機關包含我們都必須要尊重都要尊重現在就是一群沒有民意基礎的蛋頭在搞擴權然後把所有的權勢全抓在自己的手上我們立法院是五權機關裡面最貼近民意的我們今天如果不把這些話講清楚我們有愧選民的所託來法務部長"},{"start":290.091,"end":313.263,"text":"我要再有請我請教幾個問題我們剛剛已經確定司法院大概對最嚴重的犯行大概不會有什麼明確的定義跟激證那我們回到法務部的權責法務部你總管下面的檢查系統對於維護社會安定你的想法是什麼你覺得有沒有必要考量社會大眾的想法跟法律維繫社會秩序的公信力跟安定性有沒有必要考慮"},{"start":315.27,"end":315.73,"text":"現在37個還沒有執行"},{"start":333.344,"end":352.054,"text":"他們會不會通通提非常上述?這個要看因為這個才在調卷中那個這個整個有可能對不對不一定這個是那個檢查總長這是一憲法訴訟法是有檢查總長的職權他會就這37個個案我相信他會做妥適的什麼時候會有結果?這個我沒辦法去跟你沒辦法確定沒辦法保證"},{"start":352.654,"end":360.136,"text":"整個法務部系統對於這37個你現在口口聲聲講他合憲他講他合憲什麼時候會執行怎麼處理我想這部分我們先看那個有司法院秘書長說解釋的是大法官你現在講是檢察總長處理這個要寫在應作的結果我們審核的結果我們才知道這個是不是要提非常上"},{"start":381.323,"end":391.31,"text":"以前在所謂大搞實質廢死的時代很多時候是最後那張公文放在你桌子上你就不批對不對以前當然不是你啦現在經過了這樣的程序之後放在你桌子上你會不會批"},{"start":393.274,"end":415.803,"text":"如果這37個經過程序之後,確定要執行的時候,批不批?這個如果審核控告的話當然要執行啊當然要執行齁,那你覺得你有沒有機會批到?我們現在擔心的民間擔心的是我沒辦法頒委員,我想這部分的話民間擔心,我要提醒部長的是,民間擔心的是這37個案例可能到了最後,十幾二十年以後大家也不會放在你桌上這就是大家擔心的事嘛"},{"start":416.283,"end":424.59,"text":"對不對我們有太多後門了嘛太多機會太多巧門可以逃開了這個是社會的一大悲哀現在"},{"start":425.738,"end":450.171,"text":"對於釋憲後修法的方向同樣通篇照顧加害人權對於被害者、被害家屬社會穩定的重要性跟權利隻字未提我不知道兩位是忘記了還是害怕想起來但是我要嚴肅的提醒如果這事情未來沒有標準沒有依據它只會讓事情更複雜鄭捷難道不是隨機殺人嗎他不就槍斃了嗎然後你現在講隨機殺人好像沒有這麼嚴重"},{"start":454.195,"end":454.295,"text":"謝謝來請回答"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:43:57 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我們不允許網路上賣毒品我們不允許網路上賣槍械的這種違禁品或是他就是"},{"start":328.158,"end":356.773,"text":"法令明文規定的非法用品那一樣假車牌過去這段時間非常猖獗甚至網路上你只要搜尋關鍵字本席明天會開一個記者會我想也有邀請相關不管是警政單位或是抒發單位來好好討論我們怎麼樣嚇阻因為本席發現這樣的一個狀況非常嚴重甚至你只要在網路上查關鍵字就可以搜尋得到他就叫你加LINE"},{"start":357.438,"end":383.66,"text":"然後告訴你說你來製作一比一他上面甚至還寫警語啊警作教學使用嚴禁非法用途你不覺得很諷刺嗎但他做出來的車牌而且價格其實人人負擔得起那如果說我們放任這樣的一個假車牌在車路面上啪啪走我只預期兩個點第一他有恃無恐他可能開比較快因為被拍到不是罰到他"},{"start":385.199,"end":408.954,"text":"第二,如果說真的發生了車禍、肇事逃逸他跑走你現場查這個車牌查不到人那是非常嚴重的犯罪問題部長,我想請教假車牌這種違禁品的廣告是不是一併也要跟這些社群平台來去做討論要求他們不能推播甚至這一些訊息都要下架假車牌的那個"},{"start":411.156,"end":426.682,"text":"陳副委員講的就要跟我們內管的這幾大平台去溝通另外還有電商這我們跟所有的電商三大的電商工會請他們告訴他們的會員這個要嚴格控管假設另外我們其實自己也在掃"},{"start":427.739,"end":429.66,"text":"本席不要否定你們的努力,但是我們真的還是查得到"},{"start":449.589,"end":464.107,"text":"這樣子的狀況就代表是說他確實還有一些漏洞還是會被有心人士去利用所以我也提出來這個問題明天記者會我們還在就教但我更希望的是明天來的時候各單位要提出可以應對的辦法好不好謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:40:26 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12:48:15","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","id":"155193"},{"date":"2024-10-07","影片長度":"00:05:52","end_time":"2024-10-07T11:24:22+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155144","委員名稱":"羅智強","duration":352,"start_time":"2024-10-07T11:18:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fbd4f581a444b493bb10b40bbae7ef72dee48db94c8dcf46a4e90424c99191113c62e92a3742f1c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.9422187500000001,"end":2.7478437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8278437500000004,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.93284375,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.273468750000003,"end":19.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.69034375,"end":20.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.61846875,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.58721875,"end":35.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.244718750000004,"end":37.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.26971875,"end":42.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.70784375,"end":49.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.55909375,"end":57.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.77284375000001,"end":64.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.40909375,"end":93.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.09221875,"end":121.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.86846875,"end":153.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.10096875000002,"end":146.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.98159375,"end":158.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.79096875000002,"end":182.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.44971875000002,"end":209.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.66909375,"end":211.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.25096875000003,"end":343.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.66909375,"end":346.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.20471875000004,"end":346.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.28471875,"end":347.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.48284375000003,"end":349.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.26721875000004,"end":351.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.95909375,"end":351.97596875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.99,"end":13.324,"text":"主席各位先進為了符合地方自治精神本席認為應該把財政權大幅調整還給地方政府"},{"start":14.332,"end":41.988,"text":"那現行財政收支劃分法已經超過25年那現在我們應該要重新的來評量所以國民黨團主張中央和地方的財源比例應回歸地方自治精神也就是六成中央四成地方的分配方式因為現行只有25%的稅收用於支應地方的財政"},{"start":42.81,"end":61.983,"text":"那麼這樣的做法其實我覺得對於地方的發展相當的不利所以應該讓中央跟地方我們一起努力的把資源分配的更妥適那麼能夠往前走一步本次修法中央要釋出5000億的經費給地方縣市"},{"start":64.517,"end":93.325,"text":"那在過去召開公聽會的時候我們的部長我也沒看到你有什麼特別的反對的意見那麼保持開放態度這是正確的那地方政府也對於所謂的擴大地方財源紛紛表示贊同所以立法院希望我們主張希望能夠將中央所掌控的15%的經費釋出能夠給地方的縣市政府來強化地方政府財政健全的收支劃分法"},{"start":94.619,"end":106.498,"text":"連民進黨的執政縣市、高雄跟台南派出的代表其實都不反對這樣的修法方向當然比例的調整可能各有不同的意見但修法方向基本上大家都贊同"},{"start":107.732,"end":127.022,"text":"也就是希望 只是說對於未來統籌分配款對於各地方政府分配要具有所謂的比例的公平性那這一點大家會有比較多的一些意見的討論我覺得這都是好事事實上1999年因為修憲精神當時修正了財劃法"},{"start":128.183,"end":151.12,"text":"那其結果就是讓中央集權也更集錢所以25年來中央多拿了新台幣10兆元那地方就看到後果就是留給地方地方的財政不斷地惡化 入不敷出那麼賴清德自己總統自己也是從地方首長出生那我是呼籲也要來一起響應財政轉型正義"},{"start":154.102,"end":181.357,"text":"所以財化法是地方制度法的一個財政的面向兩法都應該連動修法那把中央過去本來該屬於地方的這些稅收這些收入能夠公平的還給地方那希望我們的賴清德總統能夠去想想過去他在臺南當市長身為地方首長的時候他的一個立場跟他的一個臺南的一個狀況"},{"start":182.52,"end":211.047,"text":"那當然現在中央除了將財劃法作為他今天來去對於地方政府有很多的一些坦白講就是有點可以指導的一個私房錢一樣那常常更出現中央請客地方買單的行為所以很多中央所定的政策其實常常都會變成說明知道地方財政困難還是要求地方買單那這些一方面"},{"start":212.284,"end":213.264,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":231.514,"end":248.849,"text":"這時候當下中央政府提供地方政府的財源大概分成三類一個是中央統籌分配款一個是一般性補助款一個是計劃性補助款但因為財化法到現在已經超過25年未修法所以也引起很多地方政府的批評"},{"start":249.89,"end":274.364,"text":"所以我們變成是說 中央統籌分配款的方式 那個公平性也遭到很多的議論甚至一般性的補助款 那麼也受到很多的限制而計劃性補助款 那有時候就變成是看中央看地方怎麼爭取 也看中央怎麼高興那最後身為台北市的立委 我也希望能夠為台北市政府跟台北市民"},{"start":274.904,"end":274.944,"text":"委員．羅智強"},{"start":295.706,"end":315.823,"text":"所以中央應該擴大中央統籌分配稅款把柄做大然後釋出中央給地方的財源來減輕地方財政的壓力那台北市有3個主張啦一個是營業稅100%回饋地方財源其中50%按各地營利事業而分配另外50%納入中央統籌分配稅款"},{"start":319.906,"end":325.927,"text":"保障地方的社福教育設施的一般性補助款不得少於所得稅總數10%跟貨物稅總收入10%合計數不能中央請客地方買單"},{"start":345.162,"end":345.744,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:18:30 - 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立法院沒有通過預算它仍然應該要執行 仍然可以執行那它相差的部分是在哪裡呢就是新增加的 新增跟新興的計劃沒有錯 所以現在就拿這個所謂"},{"start":344.306,"end":345.807,"text":"沒錯啊 工作人員照樣是領薪水的啊可是呢 你調薪3% 4%你就領不到囉用這樣來嚇唬老百姓那我要跟大家報告"},{"start":356.634,"end":363.42,"text":"軍公教不管是113年度的調薪或114年度的調薪都是地方在支出地方議會在審核其實我已經問了好多的地方的財政局長他說因為他們也把預算編到這個地方的議會"},{"start":375.029,"end":396.084,"text":"只要地方議會的他們通過一樣加薪的部分他們會照發沒有影響但是我在這邊也要跟大家講就是這樣的一個中央請客地方買單每一年都有啊不是只有一年每一年都有所以地方財政好一點的就繼續的幫這個中央來付錢"},{"start":402.248,"end":402.428,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":423.217,"end":423.357,"text":"王鴻薇委員"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:40:30 - 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砂石上 天然資源上來做琢磨而已"},{"start":327.853,"end":353.151,"text":"這只是單點的科稅作為標的而已所以在比較於其他的國家來說我們這個部分實在是限制過大以至於你值得非常地重怪不得大家天天要跟你要錢的原因是在這邊那最後的部分我再做一些財政法的 財法法修正的一些建議我是認為過去整個直轄市縣市鄉鎮市三套的公司實在過於複雜應該整合成一套"},{"start":354.492,"end":354.672,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":373.959,"end":375.019,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:33:42 - 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是像我講的它就是像地質法的財政的面向所以你必須要把兩個法一起來做配套的修改然後才有辦法讓整個財化法修法更為完善"},{"start":285.037,"end":285.597,"text":"李坤城議員李坤城議員"},{"start":315.933,"end":317.158,"text":"謝謝我們李坤城委員"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:13:22 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因此應盡速修訂都市計劃法第85條當該法實則的細項統一放權給各縣市政府自行制定若有認為部分地區的條件尚不宜由地方政府自行"},{"start":152.244,"end":180.286,"text":"一條定定的考慮則應由修正都計法台灣審實施細則第34之三條設定指標標準對各縣市政府予以區別讓人口密集老屋占比卻偏高向新竹嘉義基隆市等地區排除於該條件之外謝謝各位每位參與這個連署的委員也謝謝你們讓都計法第85條在這邊有充分的討論最後面請所有委員支持謝謝大家好"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:28:38 - 09:31:39","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai 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