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教育及文化委員會審查國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司設置條例交交通司法及法制兩委員會審查體育暨運動發展部組織法交司法及法制教育及文化兩委員會審查老人福利法社會九組法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查民進黨黨團提議陣列19至22委員林楚英等已具證券交易稅條例土地稅法交財政委員會審查"},{"start":2092.023,"end":2113.761,"text":"身心障礙者權益保障法﹚兒童及少年福利與權益保障法﹚交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查23委員﹚奈會員等你區﹚證券交易稅條例﹚交財政委員會審查24至27委員﹚網美會等你區﹚國土計劃法﹚都市更新條例﹚替代役實施條例﹚交內政委員會審查全民健康保險法﹚交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查28至31委員﹚郭國文等你區﹚娛樂稅法﹚索德稅法﹚貨物稅條例�"},{"start":2118.164,"end":2143.668,"text":"三次會議委員林月晴等擬聚兒童及少年福利與權益保障法交到社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查三十三至四十三委員沈柏洋等委員林一金等委員黃潔等委員蔡易瑜等委員郭育晴等委員張宏祿等委員張雅玲等委員林月晴等委員李柏毅等委員吳秉瑞等委員陳培宇等分別擬聚臺灣地區大陸地區人民關係條例交到內政委員會審查四十四刑罪函情審議一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第五期特別預算案"},{"start":2144.148,"end":2157.472,"text":"民請院．定期舉行會議．邀請行政院院長．主席長．財政部部長國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告114年度施政計畫114年度中央政府總預算案及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案編制經過並被諮詢"},{"start":2160.033,"end":2180.684,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提議陣列45委員吳春成等領據壯士代政策與產業發展促進法交社會福利及衛生環境經濟良委員會審查46至59臺灣民眾黨黨團領據公民投票法公職人員選舉罷免法交內政委員會審查再生能源發展條例農村再生條例交經濟委員會審查國民教育法國民體育法交交易局文化委員會審查停車場法公路法交交通委員會審查"},{"start":2181.644,"end":2184.366,"text":"好,我們宣讀完畢,我們現在依登記順序請委員發言,發言之後再行處理現在請登記第一位的林委員見其發言"},{"start":2222.143,"end":2242.608,"text":"主席各位議員同仁大家好本院國民黨黨團針對第11屆第2會期第4次會議增列報告事項第33至44案暫緩列案其餘照議事日程草案及各黨團提議增列報告事項通過是否有當進行公決這是從33案"},{"start":2251.691,"end":2269.66,"text":"33案到43這個是臺灣地區大陸地區人民關係條例相關沈伯陽等委員11案另外第44案是這是114年度中央政府總預算案你們提案暫緩列案"},{"start":2272.165,"end":2281.212,"text":"接下來我們請登記第二位的林委員月勤發言在林委員月勤發言結束前截止登記"},{"start":2290.152,"end":2319.49,"text":"而針對第11屆第2會期第4次會議議程報告事項質詢事項及對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢建請照議事日程草案及整列報告事項通過提案人 民主進步黨好那我們現在截止發言登記接下來我們請登記第三位的莊委員瑞雄發言"},{"start":2332.241,"end":2349.447,"text":"謝謝主席還有這場所有的委員我看大家牌子都拿出來了很明顯今天也不會有什麼好下場但是問題就是說我看到今天這個案子裡面你這第44案將把它退回我是覺得毫無道理為什麼說毫無道理就是說"},{"start":2351.388,"end":2376.335,"text":"我們程序委員會已經膨脹到無法無天我舉個例子來看我們在各個委員會裏面或者說委員會跟委員會之間的一個聯席裏面我們在整個這個會期裏面我們針對於整個打詐專法這個是一個朝野的一個共識像譬如說在場的林思明委員還有幾位委員"},{"start":2379.255,"end":2403.826,"text":"還有羅志強委員 這個我們在司法法制委員會甚至於我們跟財政委員會聯席的時候我們非常去努力像是通報法我們去增加網路的流量記錄科技偵查的這些手段我們去把它提升也把它明文列在行政訴訟法裡面好不容易我們去提供了犯罪偵查的一個利器法等到了但是子彈沒了沒有彈藥了大家去看看"},{"start":2406.187,"end":2430.734,"text":"我們在整個打擊詐欺犯罪的一個經費裡面114年度我們編列了73億較上年度增加了60億也就是說新增網路科技運用的經濟計劃裡面這50億跟新增的整個世代打擊犯罪這個部分朝野的共識大家努力了這麼久打詐有的初步的成果法案通過了可是預算你全部把它給砍掉了"},{"start":2432.345,"end":2434.128,"text":"甚至於這不是砍是連審你都不想去審我記得臺灣民眾黨"},{"start":2439.521,"end":2461.887,"text":"當初在財政跟司法法制聯席會的時候你們那邊大聲疾呼說洗錢防治法要求配合國際虛擬資產平台要在國內落地納管你們的黃珊珊委員是我看她這樣英姿翩翩跑來跑去我跟林思敏跟吳宗憲我們還好我們聯手讓她通過法制讓她通過了"},{"start":2465.086,"end":2481.6,"text":"羅志強委員他也跟我在司法法制委員會在聯席會裡面我們說吼那個涉及到網路流量會影響到各自的我們要來聯手把關我們也做到了各自的一個保障現在呢你們藍白聯手雙手一攤什麼都沒有了"},{"start":2482.762,"end":2486.103,"text":"政府應該即刻來保護全國人民的生命財產那個氣魄在我們程序委員會又把人家給閹割掉了最近大家看到山頭的颱風"},{"start":2503.032,"end":2525.148,"text":"南部東部這樣的事念國民黨執政的縣市喔你們有十幾個縣市你們最多喔你們去把它看看那這幾天的委員會裡面藍白兩黨的委員你們有多少委員在各委員會裡面要求政府下鄉勘災即刻去讓地方給復原好啦我們編啊"},{"start":2526.448,"end":2545.857,"text":"編阿 秩序預算增加159億阿災害準備金多增加50億阿 第二預備金80億阿你們嘴巴裡面說要求政府趕快抓 政府趕快把錢紮到地方去可是你們預算連省都不省阿合理嗎 我舉一個台東就好了啦我舉台東就好了啦 你們國民黨執政的地方吧對不對 土石流沖垮啦 這個錢怎麼來你們地方政府沒有編阿"},{"start":2553.888,"end":2568.919,"text":"那你們就是要向中央政府求援阿那你沒有編你這個錢怎麼下去我現在任養台東阿我去看到你們台東縣政府在向中央求援結果立法院藍白你們聯手把他給閹割掉屏東是民進黨執政的地方沒錯阿"},{"start":2570.305,"end":2595.136,"text":"高雄也是民進黨執政的地方沒錯啊可是你們沒有人要挑戰嗎這樣子對嗎你們把這些預算全部閹割掉對嗎我們在各個委員會甚至聯席的時候我們一起努力法治通過了林士民你還笑你這個全部都把它給退回更糟糕啊你們都玩假的嘛立法院程序委員會變成最大的詐騙集團欸那你要努力努力什麼"},{"start":2596.499,"end":2599.668,"text":"你來找我說我們一起的努力給他過我配合你們啊"},{"start":2601.069,"end":2629.684,"text":"打詐啊 是啊那你們說最大國安危機嗎那預算編進去的 你們卻不審你登記上來講啊我看你對老百姓怎麼來交代啊好 莊委員 那個我們發言時間沒道理啦 沒道理啦 沒道理啦你們連上來講都不敢上來講啦不是 你那個政治鬥爭我沒意見啦但是你涉及到我們共同聯手去努力法治完備預算你卻連審都不審詐騙啦 你們在程序委員會這樣詐騙"},{"start":2631.745,"end":2633.245,"text":"最大的詐騙集團就是民進黨最大的詐騙集團就是現在的執政黨"},{"start":2661.26,"end":2674.851,"text":"我們都知道我們現在的整個程序我們沒有刪除任何一毛錢的預算 對不對是我們要讓它沒有編好的要把它編好編滿在前兩個禮拜之前這個詐騙集團做了一堆電子梗圖"},{"start":2684.674,"end":2703.9,"text":"說這個國民黨在野黨刪掉了什麼這個房屋補助的預算長照的預算然後什麼青年津貼的預算育兒津貼的預算錯這個已經被事實查核中心已經認定是錯假新聞錯假訊息"},{"start":2706.938,"end":2722.73,"text":"啊 現在不敢做了 對不對 有嗎 繼續再騙最近呢 在一些 這個面紙啊 就塞到信箱裡面一樣的 說藍白啊 把這個預算那個預算給刪掉了 給擋掉了你們要再被世事查核中心再打臉一次 是不是民進黨真的很有錢 真的很有錢"},{"start":2734.982,"end":2741.988,"text":"從到處的這個買網軍 做網軍 梗圖 然後到塞面紙 全台塞欸這麼多錢 哪裡來的 不就是我們很多預算給綠油油嗎另外 從上個禮拜開始 一直在操作所謂的救災救命錢"},{"start":2759.451,"end":2771.315,"text":"我真的很遺憾也覺得很不能理解難道我們民進黨團的委員們搞不清楚現在在審哪一年的預算嗎現在所發生所有的災害用的都是113年度今年度的預算跟我們現在要求重編的114年度有什麼關係啊有什麼關係"},{"start":2788.036,"end":2794.067,"text":"救命錢救災錢我跟大家報告行政院二倍金我們給了74億不是嗎有用完嗎"},{"start":2801.039,"end":2806.823,"text":"請問一下在座的民進黨的委員知道現在行政院用二倍金可以用來救災害有多少錢嗎我打斷你們不知道因為你們根本不想知道也不願意知道你們只要去這個栽贓抹黑就好了還有超過50億的預算在那邊還沒有動用所以請問一下"},{"start":2823.959,"end":2826.06,"text":"什麼我們把救災錢擋了什麼把洪水錢擋了錢增編了1800億的治水預算哪花到哪裡去了好 所以我們要特別講其實我們現在的預算我們沒有刪掉一毛錢希望你把應該編的編好編滿然後再來給我們立法院審查"},{"start":2849.127,"end":2870.719,"text":"我們再退一萬步說今天卓榮泰院長不是也要來吃和解飯嗎我們期待的是行政院可以提出一些合理改善解決的方案讓我們的原住民讓我們的農民讓我們的醫護人員能夠知道他們的預算他們的經費能夠有保障不應該嗎"},{"start":2876.022,"end":2884.727,"text":"不應該嗎 我們不能給原住民給我們的農民 給我們的醫護人員一個交代嗎好 請王委員 我們時間好 謝謝 謝謝主席的提醒 我馬上就結束所以跟大家報告我們沒有在擋預算我們也沒有在擋救災前請民進黨不要再造謠不要再詐騙 以上 謝謝好 謝謝王委員接下來我們請登記第5位 王委員小林發言"},{"start":2907.605,"end":2912.268,"text":"好我們接下來請第6位請林委員國程發言這次看到我們莊瑞雄委員沒有罵台灣民眾黨我很高興這是好的開始但是我必須要提醒民進黨"},{"start":2937.83,"end":2957.125,"text":"民進黨所有的好朋友所有的同仁現在這個在程序委員會就是暫不列案誰說不審我告訴你大家都要審問題出在哪邊問題就是該邊而未邊"},{"start":2958.346,"end":2958.626,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期"},{"start":2976.136,"end":2981.362,"text":"現在是戰略不審不是不審所以這一點啊我要跟我的鄉長啊鄉長委員啊特別強調不要這樣說啦這樣老百姓會產生挫折會被誤會說這個叫做造謠"},{"start":2993.557,"end":3007.19,"text":"實際上來說我們是暫時不累也就是等我們有一個結果我們再來累該怎麼刪我們就怎麼刪但是台灣民眾黨的立場很清楚該審的我們一定審"},{"start":3011.069,"end":3019.675,"text":"很簡單像那個那個考試委員不是我們正式提案嗎你們不做的不是我們來做嗎該做的我們會做但是我們台灣民眾黨有一個原則台灣的建設經費不會刪人民的福值也不會刪但是浪費的東西我們一定會嚴審嚴刪謝謝"},{"start":3041.338,"end":3050.664,"text":"好,我們謝謝林委員那我們現在全部登記啊,抱歉抱歉抱歉好"},{"start":3055.697,"end":3071.932,"text":"我們現在所有登記委員都發言完畢我們現在進行處理我們先提案先處理所以我們現在先針對林建啟委員的提案就是議程增列第33至第44案也就是兩岸人民關係條例跟114年度總預算共12案都暫緩列案"},{"start":3083.523,"end":3090.808,"text":"請問對林憲齊委員的提案有無異議有異議我們進行表決請清點在場人數在場人數18位現在贊成林憲齊委員提案的請舉手"},{"start":3109.214,"end":3109.734,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3133.22,"end":3160.97,"text":"好,我們表決結果齁,初期委員18人,贊成者10人,反對者8人,棄權0人那我們就按照這個贊成者少數,欸贊成者多數,我們就按照林憲齊委員的提案通過這個報告是這樣,我們就這樣修正通過那因為其他,其他那個我們林業勤委員的提案就不處理了齁"},{"start":3162.318,"end":3186.368,"text":"那我們執行事項對行政院院長施政報告繼續執行我們也通過那請宣讀人民請願案人民請願案一含送本院委員審查者供二案二一請願法第4條規定系屬定級訴訟知識項供私案三一立法院執行刑事法第65條第二項規定含軟機關處理者供私案宣讀完畢"},{"start":3188.288,"end":3192.456,"text":"好請問有異議沒有異議我們通過請問有無臨時動議沒有我們現在散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-3","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第3次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期程序委員會第3次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第2會期第4次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","委員發言時間":"11:30:03 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謝謝主席剛才講齁 莊燁雄說我們詐騙最大的詐騙集團就是民進黨最大的詐騙集團就是現在的執政黨我們都知道我們現在的整個程序我們沒有刪除任何一毛錢的預算 對不對是我們要讓它沒有編好的要把它編好編滿"},{"start":29.727,"end":57.296,"text":"在前兩個禮拜之前這個詐騙集團做了一堆電子梗圖說這個國民黨在野黨刪掉了什麼這個房屋補助的預算長照的預算然後什麼青年津貼的預算育兒津貼的預算錯這個已經被事實查核中心已經認定是錯假新聞錯假訊息"},{"start":60.477,"end":76.27,"text":"現在不敢做了對不對 有嗎繼續再騙最近呢在一些這個面紙啊就塞到信箱裡面一樣的說藍白啊把這個預算那個預算給刪掉了給擋掉了你們要再被世事查核中心再打臉一次是不是民進黨真的很有錢真的很有錢"},{"start":88.378,"end":95.384,"text":"從到處的這個買網軍 做網軍 梗圖 然後到塞面紙 全台塞欸這麼多錢 哪裡來的 不就是我們很多預算給綠油油嗎另外 從上個禮拜開始 一直在操作所謂的救災救命錢"},{"start":112.847,"end":124.732,"text":"我真的很遺憾也覺得很不能理解難道我們民進黨團的委員們搞不清楚現在在審哪一年的預算嗎現在所發生所有的災害用的都是113年度今年度的預算跟我們現在要求重編的114年度有什麼關係啊有什麼關係"},{"start":141.432,"end":149.486,"text":"救命錢救災錢我跟大家報告行政院二倍金我們給了74億不是嗎有用完嗎"},{"start":154.438,"end":168.445,"text":"請問一下在座的民進黨的委員知道現在行政院二倍金可以用來救災還有多少錢嗎我大度你們不知道因為你們根本不想知道也不願意知道你們只要去這個栽贓抹黑就好了還有超過50億的預算在那邊還沒有動用所以請問一下"},{"start":177.338,"end":177.498,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":202.523,"end":220.373,"text":"我們再退一萬步說今天卓榮泰院長不是也要來吃和解飯嗎我們期待的是行政院可以提出一些合理改善解決的方案讓我們的原住民讓我們的農民讓我們的醫護人員能夠知道他們的預算他們的經費能夠有保障不應該嗎"},{"start":229.398,"end":230.859,"text":"主席提醒我馬上就結束所以跟大家報告我們沒有在擋預算我們也沒有在擋救災錢請民進黨不要再造謠不要再詐騙以上謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-3","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第3次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:14:11 - 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秩水預算增加159億啊災害準備金多增加50億啊 地域備金80億啊你們嘴巴裡面說要求政府趕快抓到政府趕快把錢紮到地方去可是你們預算連省都不省啊合理嗎 我舉一個台東就好了啦我舉台東就好了啦 你們國民黨執政的地方吧對不對 土石流沖垮啦這個錢怎麼來 你們地方政府沒有編啊"},{"start":232.608,"end":245.059,"text":"那你們就是要向中央政府求援阿那你沒有編你這個錢怎麼下去我現在任養台東阿我去看到你們台東縣政府在向中央求援結果立法院藍白你們連鎖把他給閹割掉屏東是民進黨執政的地方沒錯阿"},{"start":249.022,"end":273.877,"text":"高雄也是民進黨執政的地方沒錯啊可是你們沒有人要挑戰嗎這樣子對嗎你們把這些預算全部閹割掉對嗎我們在各個委員會甚至聯席的時候我們一起努力法治通過了林士明你還笑你這個全部都把它給退回更糟糕啊你們都玩假的嘛立法院程序委員會變成最大的詐騙集團欸那你要努力努力什麼"},{"start":275.236,"end":278.543,"text":"你還找我說我們一起努力給他過我配合你們啊"},{"start":279.81,"end":308.404,"text":"打詐啊 是啊那你們說最大國安危機嗎那預算編進去的 你們卻不審你登記上來講啊我看你對老百姓怎麼來交代啊好 莊委員 那個我們發言時間沒道理啦 沒道理啦 沒道理啦你們連上來講都不敢上來講啦不是 你那個政治多徵我沒意見啦但是你涉及到我們共同聯手去努力法治完備預算你卻連審都不審詐騙啦 你們在程序委員會這樣詐騙"},{"start":310.606,"end":313.99,"text":"我們對各個委員會沒道理啦不能這樣子啦不能這樣子啦"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-3","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第3次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:08:46 - 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建請照議事日程草案及整列報告事項通過提案人 民主進步黨"},{"start":33.07,"end":34.59,"text":"好 那我們現在"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[27],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-27-3","title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第3次會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T12:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:08:04 - 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顏慧欣行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表 顏慧欣行政院經貿談判辦公室談判代表 劉祺進"},{"start":2494.617,"end":2496.077,"text":"衛生部國會市科長﹐廖文安科長﹐"},{"start":2526.249,"end":2546.426,"text":"入委會綜合規劃處處長魯仲尼處長內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長林信雄副局長內政部警政署國際科研究員廖哲斌研究員"},{"start":2548.345,"end":2573.083,"text":"法務部國際及兩岸法律司檢察官 廖先志檢察官衛福部國際合作組參事監主任施金水交通部民用航空局副局長林俊良交通部航政司檢任記政楊博文經濟部國際貿易署副署長胡啟娟副署長"},{"start":2577.028,"end":2597.697,"text":"好謝謝那接下來就是我們的委員現在目前就是在場有六位委員好那我們今天協商的主題是因為民眾黨團針對近日澳洲及荷蘭他們等國會的相關的他的國會近日他們相繼以"},{"start":2598.957,"end":2608.844,"text":"今年7月IPEC組織的這個決議範本通過了聯大2758號決議文不涉台這樣的動議那民眾黨團希望能夠在院會做成決議重申我國認為聯大的2758號決議文不涉台的立場那是在國會外交上的一個重大突破那我們也非常感謝這麼多友台這個國家他們在這時釋出的善意但是我們自己的努力是"},{"start":2627.956,"end":2654.255,"text":"才是關鍵的這些努力也非常重要所以我們今天這個我看我跟在座的范雲立委我們是同為IPAC的co-chair那我們也都明白這些memberIPAC這些member他們也都期待我們自己別人伸出了善意那我們自己是不是應該有一些具體的回應跟作為那就是"},{"start":2655.774,"end":2674.327,"text":"所以民眾黨團的提案除了2758決議文的一個正確解讀之外那當然我們也希望能夠有機會邀請行政院長到立法院來跟我們報告台灣參與國際組織的目前的一些工作進度那因為這是本黨團的提案我是不是先請我們本黨的幹事長吳春成委員先發言"},{"start":2681.742,"end":2686.925,"text":"主席、各位幹事長、各位委員"},{"start":2693.342,"end":2715.108,"text":"今天就是我們台灣民眾黨的一個提議建請這個本院來做這個決議來做這個決議那這個決議我是不是還是念一下因為這是我代表台灣民眾黨來然後希望大家可以有共同的一個意見針對這個台灣主權然後現在聯合國的這些問題"},{"start":2719.52,"end":2742.119,"text":"那大家有點共識那民眾黨的建議是我念一下兩岸之間的歷史和政治的糾葛．由來已久。中華民國在台灣經歷民主化的洗禮．實現了主權在民之原則．台灣的民主自由更獲得國際社會的肯認。"},{"start":2743.08,"end":2744.521,"text":"參與的空間．台灣人民亦應享有與他國國民．相同之國際參與的權利。"},{"start":2767.458,"end":2771.483,"text":"今年7月對中政策跨國議會聯盟在臺北召開的大會通過決議"},{"start":2780.176,"end":2802.911,"text":"1971年的聯合國第二七五八號決議處理的是中華人民共和國的外交地位並沒有裁定中華人民共和國擁有對台灣的主權也沒有對台灣未來參與聯合國或其他國際組織做出任何的認定"},{"start":2804.338,"end":2809.363,"text":"隨後澳大利亞及荷蘭國會相繼IPEC決議為範本．通過了聯大2758號決議．並不涉台之動議"},{"start":2816.554,"end":2835.633,"text":"這是我國國會外交上的重大突破我們樂見並感謝世界各國對台灣的支持我們也認知我國政府自身的努力才是真正的關鍵因此在此基礎上立法院要求行政部門一"},{"start":2837.435,"end":2849.993,"text":"積極地爭取有意義地參與各種國際組織．打開中華民國台灣之國際參與空間。在本會期．邀請行政院院長．針對台灣參與聯合國"},{"start":2852.797,"end":2880.991,"text":"世界衛生組織．國際民航組織．國際刑警組織．跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定．等工作進度．在立法院進行專案的報告。那以上是台灣民眾黨的一個提案提出來今天做政黨協商是否有當敬請公決謝謝吳淳賢委員我先確認一下就是已經簽到的黃人委員有沒有書面資料"},{"start":2882.688,"end":2883.369,"text":"民眾黨主持的學生會議。"},{"start":2904.947,"end":2909.95,"text":"現在我們面對的情況大家就知道民進黨最早有個版本民眾黨有個版本針對2758決議各國的支持國民黨有個版本"},{"start":2918.095,"end":2940.474,"text":"那當然就是說以我個人的解讀覺得國民黨版本是差異最大的那差異最大怎麼講就是我也並沒有並不代表說民眾黨跟民進黨版本很接近而是說國民黨的版本是偏離這一波國際上那在IPAD所發動的就是希望他的會員能夠在各國議會通過"},{"start":2944.077,"end":2968.343,"text":"支持台灣的決議：跟聯合國二七五八有關的決議偏離最遠的以我個人的看法我們民進黨的版本是最接近的那回來講一下我想因為可能大家對於這個iPad所在今年7月30號那除了我跟陳昭之委員共同被接受成為口雀而共同主席之外"},{"start":2968.803,"end":2988.536,"text":"那在台灣的這個大會就是7月30號通過的這個model resolution到底內容有幾個部分那如果我們依照IPAD的決議理論上應該是我跟陳昭德委員要提出一個幾乎非常接近的這個決議那他到底是什麼"},{"start":2989.036,"end":3006.283,"text":"他基本上有三個部分那第一個部分主要是在講說回顧2758號決議只有處理PRC因為中國跟PRC跟ROC太複雜我們就用英文講喔PRC是China在UN的唯一的正當代表"},{"start":3007.372,"end":3029.866,"text":"那裡面有四個部分第一並未提及台灣第二並未處理台灣的政治地位第三並未建立PRC對台灣的主權第四台灣及台灣人民在對台灣及台灣人民在UN的參與是緘默的這是第一個部分回顧2758號決議文到底當時是在處理什麼第二個部分"},{"start":3030.706,"end":3049.797,"text":"表達非常遺憾的兩點。第一點,PRC的代表持續扭曲2758決議文．用它來支持一中原則。第二點,PRC的代表扭曲歷史文件．將台灣改為中國之一省台灣。這是對PRC"},{"start":3051.218,"end":3068.034,"text":"：扭曲2758號決議文的遺憾：跟他們在國際做了事。第三點就是未來的解方要解決什麼?四個部分。第一,2758號決議並未建立國際法的一中原則,主要在處理PRC在UN代表China。"},{"start":3068.815,"end":3093.231,"text":"第二點沒有任何的法律阻止台灣在國際組織的參與第三點2758號決議文沒有涉及任何主權國家如何處理與台灣的關係第四點聯合國缺乏2350萬台灣人的有效參與這件事必須緊急被修正"},{"start":3093.991,"end":3115.388,"text":"所以是有這三個部分那回來看這三個部分是不是民進黨版本的最接近我個人的看法是這樣那國民黨的非常的偏離那剛剛為什麼我們要講台灣PRC那其實就是你都講中國是非常困擾的那我想這個部分"},{"start":3116.269,"end":3120.293,"text":"大家都知道當時二七五八號決議文只有講將蓋世 即是說蔣介石政權所以我希望那第一個國民黨能夠回到就是國際"},{"start":3131.902,"end":3147.055,"text":"現在支持台灣的這個民主浪潮那既然要處理2758號就已經有這麼多的國家這麼努力的在他們的國會就是動員然後一起來通過而且用非常高的比數那今天國民黨沒有任何一個代表"},{"start":3147.415,"end":3148.715,"text":"民眾黨的代表：民進黨的代表："},{"start":3167.062,"end":3185.372,"text":"提案我覺得非常接近這個IPAD的部分就是因為我們最後一段是回到他的緊急的呼籲聯合國的這個部分因為他前面這麼的長不需要完全提及至少我們看到已經通過的荷蘭跟澳洲他的比較簡短版本那我希望民眾黨"},{"start":3187.113,"end":3216.536,"text":"能夠回到ipad這個model resolution那我也跟大家講一下那其實ipad有希望我跟招資委員來提案那我嘗試弄了一個整合的版本那民進黨這裡是非常自由的委員要提案我們邱瑩委員也有一個提案可是民眾黨方面好像沒有這個自由度那我的了解就是那個你們的總召好像很反對那當然實情是如何我沒有辦法具體的確認"},{"start":3217.256,"end":3239.195,"text":"確定我還是希望回到iPad的Model Revolution然後國民黨你的版本這麼的偏離是不是能夠回到世界民主國家如何的努力在議會裡面支持台灣的主要的精神跟主要的一個事實以上我就先發言到這,謝謝"},{"start":3242.13,"end":3267.162,"text":"那感謝范議員就是還原當日IPEC決議的主要的精神跟內容我想其實兩個黨的差距沒有很大只是進一步的論述把那個所謂不涉台的部分再釐清得更清楚那我們現在歡迎國民黨葉元之委員參與今天的會議謝謝你那您是要先發言還是我繼續讓好那我就讓民進黨成員"},{"start":3267.782,"end":3290.126,"text":"是,我也覺得說李孟浩是不是因為我們民眾黨已經發言這是我們的提案學商沒關係,好,謝謝葉委員那就沈博洋委員就麻煩你第二個對他說沒關係,他說OK好,好"},{"start":3296.298,"end":3323.002,"text":"我簡短講就好因為我們畢竟我們今天來的人比較多那我講兩件事情第一件事情就是因為各黨團的版本還有差異所以我們當然還是希望院長能夠直接來做這個整個三個的協商我覺得這是第一個那但是因為現在院長還沒招來協商所以我們就深入這個細節那因為民進黨跟民眾黨的版本稍微比較像那國民黨的版本如果民進黨的版本在這裡民眾黨大概在這裡國民黨大概在窗戶外面所以就是說"},{"start":3323.502,"end":3345.101,"text":"那個版本差距實在太大所以我覺得院長協商可能會蠻重要的但是我覺得2758它有一個重點從頭到尾2758它就是在譴責中國扭曲2758這件事所以其實全世界好像荷蘭、意大利、澳洲、美國他們聲明其實都很簡單他們就一句話他們在譴責中國就譴責中國在曲解就那麼簡單"},{"start":3345.982,"end":3374.18,"text":"所以如果說我們要接下這個球其實我們只要發一個簡單的聲明說我們也跟著世界各國譴責其實就一句話就可以結束當然我們可以把它寫得稍微比較完整一點因為畢竟是跟台灣有關所以我們可以把立場講得更清楚所以我在這邊針對民眾黨的版本我先說我對民眾黨版本的內容我沒有什麼太大的意見因為內容說這個2758號講了什麼我們希望我們的外交部能夠努力希望能夠打開國際空間這完全是正確的事情"},{"start":3375,"end":3401.337,"text":"所以我現在是要把它擺在一個脈絡下就是國際情勢因為國際上現在每一個人都是在跟你講說譴責中國這一個、譴責中國、譴責中國但如果我們沒有把譴責中國這一個強調放在這個裡面這會變成那個那天我看樂樂法律有講一個比喻就是說就像我們現在大家在海灘上面結果有鯊魚來了現在每一個人都發聲就說有鯊魚來了、有鯊魚來了結果呢我們現在有結果我們自己出了一個版本說天氣那麼熱有沒有塗防曬油"},{"start":3402.718,"end":3426.352,"text":"那天氣熱要塗防曬油是完全正確的事情那理論上我們應該先把鯊魚擊退之後然後我們在這個沙灘上生存我們需要塗防曬油所以那國民黨的版本就更國民黨的版本就有點像是有鯊魚來了但我們也是鯊魚大概是這種感覺所以我覺得在這幾個主要的方向上如果不同的話我們很難達到一個共同的決議那我們民建黨的版本的第一點"},{"start":3427.333,"end":3446.567,"text":"第二點其實這兩個都是在堅決然後呢也是在跟世界各國站在一起說大家都說中國在扭曲2758我們也認為中國在扭曲2758其實一句話我覺得應該就可以結束那如果能夠把這個整合進去然後後面再去提到說所以我們的外交部應該做好什麼準備這聽起來我覺得就蠻合理的所以這大概是我的意見謝謝謝謝謝謝洪委員我知道您加了一個重點就是對於中國的我看好那"},{"start":3457.512,"end":3469.838,"text":"你也提到剛剛說可能最後是院長先生但是我覺得我們今天的會議還是有意義的大家就是先做一個初步寫照歡迎羅志強委員出席今天的會議那因為剛剛民進黨委員已經發言了那已經有這個兩位民進黨的委員發言是不是羅委員還是葉委員你們要我們來交錯發言那羅委員請 謝謝"},{"start":3482.25,"end":3496.807,"text":"抱歉因為前面有行程所以我不太確定前面講了什麼但我想說今天就是針對我們大家朝野一起來努力來開拓我們中華民國的外交空間"},{"start":3498.248,"end":3523.241,"text":"我覺得國民黨都非常樂觀其成更何況我們親愛的賴清德總統都已經願意拋棄過去的台獨神主牌直接就說中華民國是祖國這一點我們真的要給他掌聲所以我覺得將來尤其我們之前像在立法院我們朝野都共同對2758決議有很多的意見對不對"},{"start":3526.303,"end":3531.738,"text":"那我覺得經過賴清德總統這麼所謂的提壺灌頂的大指導"},{"start":3532.762,"end":3554.255,"text":"那我們的意見就統一啦民進黨的提案跟國民黨可以完全一致這樣子國民黨提案就交給民進黨來提案我們也同意你們就把國民黨提案直接簽字至於賴慶哲總統的一個意見第一個就是什麼呢以中華民國為主體性我們重返聯合國打破2758的那個架構"},{"start":3556.656,"end":3561.341,"text":"一切所有問題就完全完美的解決了那另外賴清哲總統既然這麼愛中華民國那我覺得也給賴清哲總統我們有一個更好的一個實際上的一個祈勉就是我們在國民黨"},{"start":3572.313,"end":3575.636,"text":"我們在這個立法院關於2758決議的提案當中也很清楚的也很誠懇的來給賴清德總統兩個其免第一個就是賴總統既然這麼希望為中華民國來爭取國際空間"},{"start":3588.768,"end":3613.465,"text":"那麼就不要害怕2758決議學學馬英九總統突破2758決議的框架重返世界衛生大會跟重返國際民航組織那其實總統我相信一定非常勇敢也有勇氣也有擔當也有胸襟也有格局會做出保證在他這個任期之內就能夠讓中華民國重返這個世界衛生大會跟國際民航組織"},{"start":3616.086,"end":3635.534,"text":"如果馬總統的成績做不到,我建議可以更突破馬總統就直接按照民進黨現在這麼豐碩的外交成績和成果趕快聯合國所有成員國共同提案"},{"start":3636.494,"end":3655.647,"text":"打破2758決議：讓中華民國能夠重回國際組織那這樣子更是治本的做法而且這個做法就超越馬英九了所以請賴總統也承諾保證我賴清德非常的英明神武我一定可以在我卸任之前能夠把這個台灣把我們中華民國能夠"},{"start":3660.991,"end":3677.416,"text":"成功的聯合國的成員國．打破2758的決議框架所以我真的樂觀期待我們擁戴中華民國為祖國的賴清德總統那能夠為我們中華民國的外交開創新業跟空間謝謝"},{"start":3680.605,"end":3695.824,"text":"謝謝羅委員您的重點還是其實大家還是有共同點就是讓我們國家能夠重回一個國際組織您強調的是用中華民國的這樣子一個名義重返聯合國那現在我們交錯來發言吳斯堯委員他舉手了"},{"start":3701.347,"end":3722.246,"text":"謝謝民眾黨陳昭智委員今天召開這個協商那我想對於我們要在立法院提出一個聯合的朝野共同聲明我想各黨依提案協商這就是一個好的開始那這也是回到我上一次坐在這裡提案希望立法院朝野來促成聯合聲明那一次"},{"start":3725.389,"end":3725.63,"text":"政治糾葛．的立法院黨團．"},{"start":3741.084,"end":3747.835,"text":"那面對2758號那不涉台要能夠撥亂反正啊我想IPAC他們有了一個剛剛范雲委員所為大家簡報的一個model resolution就是一個公版"},{"start":3756.528,"end":3775.793,"text":"那這是讓IPAC的成員國回到該國的國會那也在國會裡頭促成跨黨派的國會議員的聯合主張所以第一他是有一個model一個公版一個參照也就是對於二七五八決議要重新正確的解讀那當然也包括清楚的說明在這個聲明當中提到過去中國扭曲的幾點錯誤"},{"start":3786.775,"end":3803.904,"text":"這些謬誤之處都點出來所以當台灣要回應台灣作為當事者台灣一定要有行動那我們對於這個國際的挺台抗中我們不能夠以讀不回"},{"start":3804.944,"end":3824.816,"text":"但是我們也不能以獨亂回所以我們今天朝野的責任在這裡我們要縱整出大家認同的而且符合台灣主流民意符合國際社會的期待也符合正確的歷史的認知的這些要項我們要以獨勝回"},{"start":3828.078,"end":3853.706,"text":"所以以獨勝回這件事情．是台灣中華民國立法院．的朝野委員共同的責任。我們也看到．不管是IPAC的共同主席．或者包括葛萊儀．這台灣長期瞭解台灣關係．兩岸關係的國際學者．也都不斷的提醒．台灣千萬不能以獨亂回的重要性．因為這會給國際社會錯誤的訊號"},{"start":3858.45,"end":3876.48,"text":"所以我們要如何有一個好的 完整的國會聯合聲明呢我想他應當有三個部分就是配合著剛剛IPAC的Model Resolution裡頭第一個一個國際脈絡歷史史實的背景說明"},{"start":3877.625,"end":3894.918,"text":"第二部分是針對聯合國2758號不涉台的正確解讀在台灣的觀點我們還是要重申那第三個就是我們的主張而台灣國會的聲明跟主張勢必是對國際發聲而對國際發聲的對象包括對中國"},{"start":3900.842,"end":3912.31,"text":"不要再用一中原則來錯誤捆綁2758號不涉台的決議所以對中國的立場是我們聯合聲明的一部分第二個就是對於國際的聲明我們呼籲聯合國的成員也呼籲聯合國一起來讓2758號決議撥亂反正所以對於國際的訊號對國際的發聲會是我們國會的聯合聲明的"},{"start":3929.002,"end":3937.98,"text":"重中之重當然民眾黨的版本裡頭有提到對內對台灣政府自己的自我要求那我覺得當然我們"},{"start":3940.734,"end":3962.025,"text":"立法監督行政也不是不能夠提出這個部分所以在聯合聲明的我說的第三部分他必須是對中國對國際對聯合國以及當然也可以對台灣自己國家的政府的要求所以有三大部分就應當來好好來看看我們現在三黨的版本"},{"start":3962.845,"end":3963.665,"text":"社會的質疑的聲音："},{"start":3990.715,"end":4006.267,"text":"國民黨如剛剛羅志強委員的發言他非常的緬懷馬英九前總統沒有關係他是您的前老闆沒有問題然後呢國民黨的版本呢居然又要回到半世紀前的1972年國民黨的版本是要整個否定2758號決議文"},{"start":4012.958,"end":4038.502,"text":"所以這個跨越時空做上時空機的這種全盤否定2758號決議的不只跟IPAC的這個共同的理解跟做法是不同的也會造成我們剛剛說的你對國際社會釋放了什麼樣子的訊號我們不能以讀亂回所以要再次重申我們希望說既然是立法院的聯合聲明今天民進黨團我們非常用心誠懇的我們來了五位"},{"start":4042.583,"end":4043.283,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員"},{"start":4062.97,"end":4070.894,"text":"接受：那勢必還是要讓韓國瑜院長主持的朝野協商。所以今天就內容上就是民眾黨的版本是對內訴求比較多那如果可以的話應當是我剛講對中國的訴求跟對聯合國的呼籲這個部分是民進黨版本一個很重要的精神"},{"start":4082.02,"end":4102.966,"text":"但是大方向上對於歷史的事實：對於2758號決議文不涉台的這些解釋跟導正那我想民進黨版本跟民眾黨版本是比較接近那對國民黨的版本要回到1972年以前的歷史時空我想這個是讓大家覺得是牛頭不對馬嘴"},{"start":4104.706,"end":4129.193,"text":"這個也實在我擔心這樣子的說法確實會釋放了一個錯誤的訊號給國際社會那也還是國民黨的委員們剛剛羅志強委員講了好多好多的賴清德我們今天是在國會回到主題我們在講的是2758號不設台的朝野共同的聯合聲明那一直講賴清德"},{"start":4130.333,"end":4151.28,"text":"就好奇怪講賴清德你講馬英九就算了沒有關係你喜歡講馬英九然後講了賴清德總統如何如何如果您這麼肯定賴清德總統在國慶晚會的說法那就應當起義來歸好好站在台灣的主體性為2758不涉台的決議文做出台灣正確的歷史作為"},{"start":4154.19,"end":4161.705,"text":"在邀請國民黨在發言之前因為剛剛紅委員您舉手了不然就是請你先發言再組第二次發言 謝謝"},{"start":4165.589,"end":4188.402,"text":"其實第一個事情是我覺得第一個還是先謝謝今天陳昭志委員召集這場協商那我們也有感覺到陳昭志委員的誠意所以這也是今天民進黨我們其實也有很多關心這個議題的委員出席的一個原因但我只是覺得第一個我們今天在談這個258議題我自己是認為"},{"start":4191.444,"end":4217.04,"text":"這是一個這個本來台灣不同的政黨之間我們本來就存在著很多互相競爭的事情可是在這個議題上面我自己認為是應該要有一個團結尋求共識我覺得這是今天討論非常重要的事情可是這個尋求的共識的過程我自己也認為不能獲悉你我覺得這件事情是先講在前面"},{"start":4217.74,"end":4238.699,"text":"第二件事情是我們今天在這個地方討論這個議題有幾個很重要的原因其實我想不管是陳道智委員范雲委員范雲委員剛剛其實也做了剛剛IPAC的闡述很重要的一點是就這個當下國際社會跟很多民主國家的國會正在如雨後春筍般的"},{"start":4240.543,"end":4253.26,"text":"一一的表達他們的看法來挺台灣所以今天我們在這個地方有一個很重要的部分是我們是在回應國際的民主國家尤其是他們的國會"},{"start":4255.014,"end":4280.195,"text":"的挺台我們也應該要我們自己就是當事人我們應該要做出回應跟正面而清晰的訊息的表述這是我們今天為什麼在這個地方討論這個議題重要的議題的原因他不是憑空掉出了掉下來的不是哪個政黨要去做政治操作的話先講這件事情就是包括剛剛說了從澳洲荷蘭的國會都做出這樣的決議那我要強調"},{"start":4282.21,"end":4293.917,"text":"澳洲跟荷蘭的都是由國會來做出這樣的決議所以今天我們作為一個國會議員某個部分當我們要呼應國際的時候其實我們本來就是在討論一個以國會為主體的看法"},{"start":4299.386,"end":4317.078,"text":"我們本來就是在處理一個以國會為主體的看法所以我其實不是很清楚知道為什麼剛剛羅志強委員剛才他的發言裡面都是馬英九都是賴清德請問馬英九跟賴清德總統馬英九前總統跟賴清德總統他們是現在的國會議員嗎?他們是現在台灣國會裡面中華民國國會裡面的黨團代表嗎?他們並不是"},{"start":4327.779,"end":4356.911,"text":"我們今天在呼應國際跟接軌國際就是以國會為主體的看法的聲明跟發聲其實這是我們今天在討論裡面非常非常重要的脈絡跟原因所以回到剛才說的我覺得有幾點必須先再闡明第一個到目前為止中華人民共和國持續的正在用2758號決議來扭曲來去向國際社會表達台灣是中國的一部分"},{"start":4358.952,"end":4386.124,"text":"進而在阻擋台灣社會的國際參與包括國際組織參與這個是當下的現在進行式我們必須看到這個當下的現在進行式它正在發生傷害正在發生如果我們認清這件事情的話那我們來討論我們的這個決議文我覺得裡面有幾個部分就是很重要的事情第一個要先指出到底"},{"start":4387.27,"end":4390.683,"text":"中國目前的中華人民共和國是如何扭曲"},{"start":4392.247,"end":4417.117,"text":"他怎麼樣誤讀明明就不涉及台灣但他拿的這一份1971年的文本扭曲錯誤解讀刻意的錯誤解讀產生錯誤的訊息這一份決議文裡面應該要先指出他如何扭曲他為什麼這是扭曲我覺得這部分要先表明清楚這是第一件事情第二件事情"},{"start":4418.497,"end":4426.687,"text":"當他正在扭曲跟傷害台灣的國際參與的時候難道我們不用面對他告訴他你這樣做是不對的你現在應該要停止甚至應該譴責他這樣子的作為他正在傷害啊"},{"start":4434.676,"end":4448.449,"text":"所以我們不是說有人在傷害我所以我們把防彈衣要求我們行政部門趕快把防彈衣穿起來不是吧應該要先要求正在傷害我們的人停止你的傷害行為跟錯誤的行為這也應該是我們在這個決議裡面要有的東西啊所以如果從這個角度來看的話我要說"},{"start":4455.72,"end":4479.011,"text":"現在目前裡面的決議的內容我想大家都清楚知道中國就是扭曲所以扭曲的方式應該放入裡面可是第二個我們應該要面向做壞事的人面向傷害台灣的人先要求他停止甚至要譴責他幹這些傷害台灣的行為也就是中華人民共和國"},{"start":4481.96,"end":4506.496,"text":"這就是需要放入我們決議文裡面的內容我今天在這邊我拋棄我們在談黨派的問題過去紛紛擾擾我們今天都不談那些事情因為現在在兩三個禮拜前我們也剛從荷蘭跟比利時回來在那邊很多的國會議員也對於我們清楚表達出我們對2758號決議文的看法他們也表達這樣子的期待"},{"start":4512.366,"end":4537.868,"text":"他們也表達這樣子的期待那大家也都知道所以如果以呼應國際的角度來說的話我自己覺得看到目前國民黨的版本的內容坦白說跟目前IPEC或者是幾個發聲挺台灣的民主國家的國會的意旨跟主旨是有落差的是不太一樣的主軸是不太一樣其實讀這個文藝就讀得出來的事情"},{"start":4539.113,"end":4564.032,"text":"所以我們應該要呼應大家現在國際社會：對於二七五八號決議文的看法的主軸然後要譴責：要求中國停止現在他幹的壞事來傷害台灣我們希望今天的討論可以在這件事上面盡量尋求共識當然共識之前大家可以各自表述可是這個尋求共識的過程不應該獲悉尼"},{"start":4566.564,"end":4578.068,"text":"而且這就是以國會為主體的討論我們當然對這個馬英九總統他有他的看法可是我今天也不想討論馬英九總統怎樣今天那個總統他現在就不是國會議員以一個國會為主體的討論該怎樣是由現在三個黨團我們的看法來決定的事情就這麼簡單好 謝謝"},{"start":4589.212,"end":4605.079,"text":"謝謝我想這邊幾位委員也提到說我們今天為什麼這個三黨都有相關的提案源自於就是七月底的時候第一次在台灣舉行了這個IPEC會議我大概想很久以來大概沒有這麼多國家的"},{"start":4605.979,"end":4626.964,"text":"大概將近三十個國家：然後超過兩百位的國會議員到台灣來這個是蠻盛大的事情那當天他們做了一個這樣子的可是對台灣表示非常的友善給予我們溫暖的一個提案那也都獲得通過通過之後有一些會員國他們回到自己的國家也繼續因為這個"},{"start":4629.085,"end":4635.31,"text":"IPAC本身就是跨國國會議員的聯盟所以他們也回去也繼續具體的做了一些努力那這些努力都是針對台灣是善意的要給予我們兩千三百萬兩千三百五十萬的人民有一些更大的空間參與國際的空間"},{"start":4654.044,"end":4676.069,"text":"這個是一個我認為有個人認為一個非常珍貴難得的機會所以我們才有這些三黨的提案但我今天努力我知道大家認為也許最後還是要經過韓院長來做一個協商不過我們還是努力在這個層次的會議上來提出我們的一個希望能夠找到我們的公約數好那在也許羅委員再度發言之前那就蔡育瑜委員好謝謝"},{"start":4684.344,"end":4685.145,"text":"好多委員謝謝剛剛聽到我們民進黨的委員的發言我嚇了一跳"},{"start":4695.387,"end":4718.958,"text":"我說這個賴清德總統這麼尊貴的名字在國會竟然變成章字是章東西不能提啊我好驚訝我嚇死了馬總統你不能提就算了抱歉喔范雲委員你們發言我一句話都沒講當初鍾嘉賓就在這個會議室承諾過發言的時候不要插嘴"},{"start":4720.842,"end":4736.866,"text":"所以如果說今天有什麼要講話的話請主席才是啦請尊重我完整的發言權我還是要回頭講啊怎麼啦黨團協商是文字語啊不能講馬英九不能講賴清德賴清德是現在的總統欸代表我們中華民國欸那到底賴清德總統的意思很重要啊我言必聲賴總統有什麼不對呢我這麼愛賴總統"},{"start":4750.369,"end":4761.513,"text":"我是不是愛賴清德﹖我言必稱他﹖結果你們把他當章志﹖這樣子對賴清德總統不好啦﹖我覺得真的﹖對他不公平另外剛剛吳士堯委員說﹖不要以獨亂回啊﹖吳委員這句話真好你不要以獨亂回我們賴清德總統的話好不好"},{"start":4774.261,"end":4792.7,"text":"我當然愛戴興德啊他是中華民國的總統啊我怎麼不愛他他從兩天前突然變成中華民國總統我從兩天前開始愛他我愛死他了他把台獨整個背叛掉這完全符合我的理念雖然我很尊敬台獨的主張但我個人是中華民國派"},{"start":4793.737,"end":4815.644,"text":"所以賴清德直接在我們的國慶晚會當場頒出了一宗憲法欸一宗憲法就你剛剛講的說不要講一宗原則他頒一宗憲法欸他跟他講從今天開始中華民國才是我們的祖國中華人民共和國不是我們的祖國我們要否棄這個中華人民共和國"},{"start":4817.185,"end":4831.583,"text":"具體的行動指針就出來了也許今天吳士耀委員速度慢沒跟上我們賴清德的旨意因為兩天前才改變沒有跟上我不能插嘴但是可以走動沒問題委員盡量走動"},{"start":4833.973,"end":4855.636,"text":"所以吳偉仁的動作慢半拍所以沒有跟上賴清德總統已經標示一中憲法了已經告訴大家我們就是中華民國就是祖國反映在2758決議上最好來秉持賴清德總統的這個精神抱歉來我貢獻我們今天賴清德總統最好的聲明"},{"start":4857.734,"end":4883.402,"text":"中華民國是主權獨立的國家．也是聯合國創始會員國聯合國大會2758決議．不公正排除中華民國的代表權及國際參與．長期以來造成國際上我國人民權益缺乏保障．國際參與邊緣化．以及至尊受損的孤兒困境。中華民國政府致死表達反對2758決議"},{"start":4885.757,"end":4886.458,"text":"我告訴你賴總統 這個聲明送給賴總統 僅成賴總統請賴總統轉交民進黨黨團"},{"start":4893.976,"end":4919.852,"text":"因為從兩天前開始我們就統一啦不要再講台灣共和國台灣共和國要給 可以啦台灣共和國民進黨代總統再改變一次也許兩天後再改變一次然後直接宣布台灣共和國台灣獨立那麼民進黨接下來再推用台灣共和國名義加入聯合國也是民政延順就歡迎代總統直接宣布台獨然後用台灣共和國名義加入聯合國民政延順"},{"start":4922.094,"end":4947.728,"text":"如果賴總統兩天前的祖國論是真心誠意的話那很好啊那今天中國國民黨已經寫好了一個反對2758的決議我們就是要用中華民國的身份來告訴大家中華人民共和國不是我們的祖國啊我們要用中華民國的身份堂堂正正的重返國際社會啊"},{"start":4948.908,"end":4969.983,"text":"所以我要跟我們吳士堯委員說跟剛剛不遵守2758馬上離席的侯生幻委員說我要跟大家講以獨不回是誰啊以獨亂回是誰啊以獨亂回就是已經慢半拍的吳士堯跟民進黨立法院黨團嘛情勢已經變更總統已經轉向總統已經擁抱中華民國了"},{"start":4972.625,"end":4992.995,"text":"民進黨黨團跟上腳步賴清德總統不是張誌不要說在國會電台竟然講賴清德總統竟然是一種罪我承擔不起啊拜託拜託請賴清德總統就直接宣布我就以中華民國的尊嚴跟身份反對2758決議充滿聯合國謝謝然後蔡委員好聽到很難聽"},{"start":5001.462,"end":5010.14,"text":"加公賴清德,不加公中國。事實上我們今天在討論的就是國會對於全世界民主國家包括"},{"start":5011.616,"end":5034.755,"text":"澳洲包括荷蘭在強調2758號決議文不涉台這件事情全世界的國會發出了正義之聲那我們台灣的國會應該要來響應這樣的聲明所以我們希望用國會的立場大家做出一個完整共同我們一致的一個理念響應國際上來支持台灣"},{"start":5035.896,"end":5045.685,"text":"今天主席召開這樣的我們今天的協商問題重點就在這裡啊結果國民黨勒你們的決議就是來亂的剛剛講的那句那些話也是來亂的"},{"start":5050.95,"end":5056.334,"text":"跟賴清德主席在國慶晚會的演說有什麼關係嗎?2758號決議文是在1971年他的內容是什麼?我再唸一次給國民黨的代表聽一下"},{"start":5067.23,"end":5090.383,"text":"他的決定是恢復中華人民共和國一切權益．承認他的政府．代表中國在聯合國組織的唯一合法代表．並立即把蔣介石的代表．從他在聯合國組織．及其一切所屬．一切機構．中所非法佔據的席位上驅逐出去。這個就是2758號決議文的本文"},{"start":5094.892,"end":5119.505,"text":"大家都知道我們文字上的理解那過去就是被中國扭曲中國說這個就是一中原則這個就是中國否認台灣否認中華民國在國際上的一個代表性去讓中國這樣扭曲那可是他的本文裡面完全沒有講到中華民國也沒有講到台灣"},{"start":5121.024,"end":5142.36,"text":"所以現在全世界開始去驚喜這件事過去可能大家都有中國的壓力阿中國這樣說大家最配合的說那可能過去了現在大家就漸漸發生中一切事實是怎樣那我們就把事實恢復那當澳洲當荷蘭的議員國會議員他們來發出這樣的聲音的時候我們台灣的國會不用有聲音嗎"},{"start":5149.468,"end":5155.593,"text":"我們台灣國會：不用在這樣的情況之下：我們做出：我們呼應全世界"},{"start":5156.636,"end":5181.369,"text":"的一個共同聲明所以國民黨你們在反對2758號決議文你們卻不敢講到中國那講到底那你們為什麼不反對1949年的時候中國﹐中華人民共和國從中華民國分裂出去為什麼你們不反對你們跳出了台北啊你跳出來的不是中國啊你想要在中華民國大家分裂出去"},{"start":5183.51,"end":5187.491,"text":"1949年賴清德總統講的就是這樣的一段歷史啊!75歲以上的中國人為什麼要說中華民國是祖國?為什麼?就是中華人民共和國從中華民國分裂出去啊!這個你們國民黨最懂!因為當時沒有民眾黨!當時也沒有民進黨!那都臨步的!"},{"start":5207.179,"end":5234.277,"text":"阿你末日才來這裡找老闆：等全世界要停頓的時候：阿你就在那裡早點來早點去我看這樣今天：也沒什麼好開了是不是用韓院長來主持我們還是有誠心的呼應主席我們要有一個共同的決議文來響應全世界來支持台灣我們不能把我們國內政治上的分歧變成台灣走不出去的一個原因好不好"},{"start":5234.517,"end":5248.564,"text":"我們都盡力在保護我們的家人跟台灣因為今天是民眾黨的提案那我想還是讓大家暢所欲言吳委員謝謝主席我想這個國民黨的委員不是來面對問題討論問題解決問題就是唯恐天下不亂就是來亂的在台灣的國會亂就算了我們不能夠放任台灣的國會"},{"start":5261.73,"end":5278.898,"text":"到世界上去做一個歐美亂來的生命那我想這個趙姿姐跟我們范雲委員都是IPAC的co-chair最了解IPAC在處理2758號決議不涉台的很多主張然後很多導正然後很多對世界發聲的這些聯合行動"},{"start":5283.28,"end":5287.503,"text":"那後續民進黨團我們跟民眾黨的這個內容上我想在本質上是比較接近我們也不會放棄持續的溝通對話那整合出一個符合台灣主流民意符合正確的史觀也符合國際社會挺台抗中的共同集體行動這是我們不會放棄努力那後續既然是立法院的聯合聲明我們就是近代韓院長所主持的那各黨的對話"},{"start":5313.098,"end":5314.159,"text":"國民黨的代表：可能也聽不下羅志強的說法：可能也就走了。"},{"start":5328.075,"end":5334.862,"text":"那既然還是這個朝野協商：我們今天來的：有Culture的：那個IPEC的Culture：有我們的黨團的黨編：我們都代表黨團的立場那我們也希望後續在協商的時候：各黨黨團的立場：黨編們要負責任的好好來發言那謝謝主席"},{"start":5346.054,"end":5365.534,"text":"謝謝各位的發言因為我們知道其他就是兩黨也會有後續的一些黨體但本來我是希望能夠是不是先有一個版本讓韓院長能夠做協商那可不可能用民眾黨的這個版本先去進行當然本來是iPad的公版如果大家可以接受這是也是一個指標那個主席我們不然聽完"},{"start":5375.683,"end":5382.289,"text":"三個版本,因為各黨都有,也不要遺漏任何一個版本,那三個版本一起交院長的協商。"},{"start":5391.877,"end":5410.087,"text":"2758決議是非常嚴肅的事情民進黨不要好像你們提的案子就是你們就是來主張案子別人提的案子就會來亂剛剛基本上 欸欸欸 又來雖然齁 又來了又來去跟宗嘉賓講去跟宗嘉賓講 宗嘉賓當場答應我不會插話的好不好"},{"start":5414.386,"end":5431.537,"text":"中嘉賓當場答應我講不贏就走啦我懂啦講不贏就走沒關係我還是跟主席講程序一樣要完備今天對於中華民國來講我們的立場向來一貫啊我們今天的主權獨立國家就是中華民國啊"},{"start":5432.93,"end":5461.687,"text":"那很抱歉啊賴清德總統在兩天前也肯認了這個主張這個立場啊那民進黨到現在委託的問題也不敢回答那請問你要重返你要不管是加入聯合國重返聯合國你的名義是什麼你是台灣共和國呢還是中華民國呢顯然目前這世界上沒有台灣共和國這個國家那如果有台灣共和國這個國家我覺得也沒問題啊那賴清德總統你就去主張台灣獨立嘛"},{"start":5463.001,"end":5489.486,"text":"但在沒有台灣共和國這個國家的時候 你要以什麼樣的主體身份來重返聯合國呢?最好的狀況當然就是中華民國嘛所以中華民國從頭到尾就是反對2758決議剛剛雖然蔡議員想說聽我的話聽不下去 他的話我很認真聽啦他剛剛講一個重點嘛2758決議裡面既沒有提到中華民國四個字 也沒有提到台灣兩個字啊"},{"start":5490.869,"end":5517.955,"text":"說換言之：照民進黨的邏輯：既然2758決議不涉台：那也不涉中華民國啊不是嗎這差異語的主張啊那不涉台我當然說民進黨要主張用台灣共和國因為不涉台嘛用台灣共和國進去那你耐心的你就有本事宣布台灣獨立嘛不要當龜孫子宣布台灣獨立就可以台灣共和國民意加入聯合國但如果你沒這個膽量宣布台灣獨立的話"},{"start":5519.793,"end":5541.948,"text":"那我就問民進黨阿我們現在國家國民的主體不就兩天前耐心的講著中華民國阿那你不用中華民國重返聯合國你用什麼名稱名義重返聯合國你講個告訴我阿更重要的是唉不要作秀啦你今天提2758決議我剛剛就講了兩個承諾都不敢答應嘛"},{"start":5542.984,"end":5564.13,"text":"你今天真的要讓我們中華民國或是民進黨新興念的台灣共和國有一個國際參與空間你不是在這邊啦你民進黨這麼厲害每天大外宣你去把聯合國的所有成員國將在聯合國大會提案啊提案兩個提案嘛第一個打破2758決議啊"},{"start":5566.226,"end":5582.314,"text":"第二個聯合國直接宣布就以台灣共和國的名義讓賴清德進到聯合國啊這兩條路你講第三條路給我聽嘛沒有這一條路結果下了全部走光光還有那個賴 我覺得胡適堯最好笑"},{"start":5583.732,"end":5599.828,"text":"我講賴清德他竟然是那麼痛恨賴清德什麼時候變張字張東西啊賴清德是國家元首兩天前宣誓效忠中華民國終於誕生了兩天前的新中華民國總統我當然尊敬他我言必稱他難道不對嗎"},{"start":5601.189,"end":5607.335,"text":"提出建設性的方案國民黨的提案最好作為共同聲明剛剛好對 我覺得民眾黨提案也不錯啦也不錯啦但民進黨的提案根本就是來亂的真正來亂的就是民進黨 以上好 謝謝羅委員那我再說明一下我們本黨所用的名詞是中華民國台灣"},{"start":5619.707,"end":5634.576,"text":"那這樣的話本案今天沒有辦法取得三黨的共識不過大家也是把心裡的話都表達出來那謝謝那我們這個案子我們就交到交請韓院長來進行協商那謝謝大家謝謝行政官員的出席那我們散會謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2024100144","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院台灣民眾黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：「兩岸之間的歷史和政治糾葛，由來已久。中華民國在台灣歷經民主化之洗禮，實現了主權在民之原則，台灣的民主自由更獲得國際社會的肯認。也因此，台灣的國際處境，近年來獲得了諸多國際關注。基於聯合國憲章所揭櫫之原則，台灣本應獲得更多國際參與之空間，台灣人民亦應享有與他國國民相同之國際參與權利。今年7月，『對中政策跨國議會聯盟』（IPAC）在台北召開的大會，通過決議『1971年的聯合國第2758號決議處理的是中華人民共和國的外交地位，並沒有裁定中華人民共和國擁有對台灣的主權，也沒有對台灣未來參與聯合國或其他國際組織做出任何認定。』隨後，澳大利亞及荷蘭國會，相繼以IPAC決議為範本，通過聯大2758號決議並不涉台之動議。這是我國國會外交上的重大突破，我們樂見並感謝世界各國對台灣的支持。我們也認知，我國政府自身的努力才是真正的關鍵。因此，在此基礎上，立法院要求行政部門：一、積極爭取有意義地參與各種國際組織，打開中華民國台灣之國際參與空間。二、在本會期，邀請行政院院長針對台灣參與『聯合國』（UN）、『世界衛生組織』（WHO）、『國際民航組織』（ICAO）、『國際刑警組織』（ICPO）、『跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定』（CPTPP）等工作進度，在立法院進行專案報告。」是否有當？請公決案。）","委員發言時間":"10:00:00 - 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邱志偉完全不同昨天我去經濟委員會質詢的時候邱志偉當任會議主持直接交賣陣上台作為主持會議的格調真的高下立判了好"},{"start":1901.462,"end":1907.007,"text":"蔓委員好請教一下我們卓院長不在籍投票的態度如何"},{"start":1928.407,"end":1950.673,"text":"不再投票當然要讓每個國民能夠行使政治的權利公民的權利應該廣泛的來討論實施的可能但應該要克服的是很多技術上現在存在的一些困難如果我們能夠克服技術上的困難也克服政治上的障礙我認為可以往前去做更多的思考"},{"start":1951.781,"end":1978.279,"text":"以你的計畫我們共同去努力來去克服但是技術上跟政治上的障礙還是蠻多的但是我們要努力來想想有沒有好的方法謝謝 謝謝我們卓院長一陣在3個會期以在野黨就是強力推動下好不容易通過了新住民基本法也落實柯文哲對新住民的承諾唯一"},{"start":1979.339,"end":1999.528,"text":"美中不足的地方就是只有專職中央三級行政機關當初我們陳建源院長一句話三級機關已滿不把賴總統的政見當一回事我也委曲求全爭取到了中央三級機關"},{"start":2001.388,"end":2018.777,"text":"內政部長劉世芳部長也說三期機關已經滿了但是很幸運這一屆我們的卓院長很有魄力商任馬上就把體育署升格為體育部"},{"start":2019.827,"end":2019.887,"text":"主席"},{"start":2036.86,"end":2043.744,"text":"首先向委員報告體育署升格這個不是這樣的講法這是一個全新的體育部"},{"start":2062.441,"end":2076.662,"text":"體育部不是由體育署來升格的所以他是一個完全新概念新組織新的政策新的策略新的面對國人的一個全新的體育部所以體育署並沒有升格的問題那體育部"},{"start":2077.363,"end":2077.623,"text":"請部長說明"},{"start":2098.735,"end":2126.45,"text":"謝謝麥委員的關心我想我完全沒有打假球我們在好幾次的這個對談當中都有跟麥委員報告我們根據行政院的組織架構跟中央行政機關基準法的檢討方向確實沒有錯現在署的這樣子的一個成績已經有達到70上限所以我們必須要等這個上限通出來之後馬上可以填補進去成立我們的新住民的這個發展署"},{"start":2127.491,"end":2151.688,"text":"這個不管是行政院的政務委員或者是我們現在在處理這個有關於未來的新住民的發展方向我們的常務次長吳唐安他們都兩周以內都是進行在處理未來有關新住民發展署的一個整個的方向而且我們分成6個重要的任務指標包括原額架構或是未來的發展等等都有包含在內跟麥委員做報告"},{"start":2154.431,"end":2179.044,"text":"好謝謝所以說我們不是升格是直接成立對不對全新的體育部對所以這個我們大家都認同大家也希望說這個部就是即將要成立是最好的所以跟滿的滿邊還有滿也沒有什麼差別我的意思就是說要不要做而已"},{"start":2179.804,"end":2201.693,"text":"所以在我們的奧運過後我們卓院長就是指示下就是要中央行政機關組織基本法可見當初不是滿編可以去修改所以而不是政府我的用意就是重不重視要不要做這個問題所以說我們"},{"start":2206.145,"end":2218.54,"text":"賴清德總統在選舉的時候提出照顧新住民五大政見這個是其中之一而已所以我們成立一個專職機構也是總統府我們總統的政見"},{"start":2223.331,"end":2237.319,"text":"所以我們希望說他跟我們新住民承諾也不是詐騙的不要騙我們新住民的感情我們是主推五大政見其中之一希望就是未來真的去"},{"start":2238.447,"end":2266.838,"text":"成立新住民發展署因為呢我當一天立委我一直盯著這個五大政見我們賴總統就是要跟我們承諾一定要做到沒有的話我每天就會盯著我們就會盯著這件事情希望他的五大政見我們卓院長你要重視也要說執行我們賴總統的政見這個就是要請院長要"},{"start":2267.608,"end":2273.591,"text":"總統在選舉期間提出的政見都會是現在政府必須全面檢視要推動的國家政策之一"},{"start":2291.752,"end":2311.306,"text":"那當然國家政策的推動他雖然全面的檢視他的執行跟實施也是要循序漸進那現在這個都已經那剛剛部長已經說明清楚了都有計畫但什麼時候能夠去實現這樣的一個政策也跟委員想像的過程一樣那這個還要做一些努力我剛剛說過"},{"start":2312.527,"end":2339.552,"text":"體育部升格之後還有很多的體育的教育跟學校相關的設施的維護跟設施的建設都必須要有現在的單位來做處理我們現在思考如何維持現在教育部的工作及未來體育及運動發展部的工作這兩者之間要如何做一個很清楚的界面同時要有相當多的互相的跨部會的配合這個部分還在處理當中所以現在我們在中央組織基礎部"},{"start":2340.64,"end":2341.481,"text":"新住民的專責機構的機關的處理已經有他的構想循序漸進推動"},{"start":2358.595,"end":2360.716,"text":"金管會統計在8月29號到9月4號每日平均我們的民眾被詐騙4億1千"},{"start":2389.062,"end":2403.938,"text":"五百一十三萬元 行政院在5月9號也通過打炸新市法說要完善打炸防護網 使打炸更有成效 讓人民的財產"},{"start":2405.399,"end":2432.064,"text":"保護的最有保障請問的成效在哪裡但是呢我們在10月3號全國放颱風架但是呢全國放颱風架我們是被詐騙只有2億這個代表什麼原因我們警政署有沒有去調查原因放颱風架是全國應用網路的是最高峰的"},{"start":2432.484,"end":2433.566,"text":"這才是我們想要了解的"},{"start":2446.598,"end":2469.398,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心詐騙的事情日前也有委員在關心隨行過這個詐騙的數字那內政部 劉部長他有非常詳實的數字的說明報告我請部長來說明是 謝謝麥委員的關心委員都非常清楚打詐是法在立法院朝野政黨的努力之下我們在7月底公佈出去以後"},{"start":2470.598,"end":2485.308,"text":"打詐新司法對於我們在處理打詐其實成效非常的多您現在引用的數據是8月份跟7月份的比較但是如果你用打詐儀表版每天所發生的打詐的受理次數跟受理的這個財損數的話你會發現它是在下降的"},{"start":2488.39,"end":2516.307,"text":"那當然你剛剛有提到說在颱風天啊颱風天大家都在家裡面用比較多的網路那這個網路的部分呢我們跟數位發展部也好或是跟我們的金管會都會互相結合會推出比較好的執法譬如說網路的這個平台業者要怎麼樣規範他如果他有收受跟這些違法的這個網路平台業者的廣告的時候呢嚴格來講他必須要接受比較大的這個懲罰或者甚至要下架的處分"},{"start":2518.128,"end":2539.568,"text":"執政部會警政署要怎麼樣去做這個部分我們都是有規劃有一個規則但是我在關心的是說我們警政署在2016年有成立打詐中心2022年也有成立就是我們的打詐國家隊"},{"start":2541.81,"end":2569.707,"text":"2023年我們也成立打架的辦公室還有今年也成立瓜布會的打架中心所以我們就是一直在做打架越打越架所以就希望說我們要用好的方式我們要研議要研究說為什麼疫情的時間我們是減少了不是說我們5月份成立我們就8月份一天就被騙那麼多"},{"start":2570.547,"end":2570.567,"text":"委員："},{"start":2586.225,"end":2613.305,"text":"政績：預算：內容也沒有改部門：改：回頭這樣的兩億的數據跑到哪裡去還有我們行政院目前提出來的就是新世代打詐詐欺涉獵行動網01.5版根本沒有顯示效果真是真的沒有好的落實但是現在打詐網又說2點"},{"start":2617.348,"end":2629.893,"text":"2.0何時可以出爐就是我們一直改變但是詐騙越來越多所以我們就是要演繹要如何做更好才能保護我們人民不要被詐騙"},{"start":2631.573,"end":2653.763,"text":"跟委員補充報告一下在2023年之前我們警政署在計算有關於打炸的這個案件數的時候是一案就算一件但是現在我們的方式是一案如果涉及多人的話就變成是多件也就是計算的標準不一樣所以你會看到好像數目是增加非常的多再來給我們詳細的資料"},{"start":2656.324,"end":2684.754,"text":"我現在就是要跟您解釋一下然後最重要就是我們打造新審法我想要請問第3個就是消因為時間有限因為警消人力的缺口他們也一直希望我們來協助就是何時可以補齊就關於就是我們各種樣式的專案如就是掃黑啊機槍啊機毒啊打架交通安全的執法專案還有一些就是我們的"},{"start":2686.237,"end":2686.297,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":2709.022,"end":2716.144,"text":"是 報告委員那個有關於警消的缺口的部分我們警政署在113年會預計增加1300人那消防署的部分謝謝考試院幫忙我們現在已經要禁用949人那在一定程度上面可以彌補現在的缺口好 謝謝我們的部長再來書面可以給我"},{"start":2738.51,"end":2767.017,"text":"最後因為我時間有限所以我就是最後我在這邊呼應我們的執政黨不管我們來自哪裡在什麼領地我們永遠都是媽媽心目中的寶貝每一個人的生命財產都是很重要如果我們要對別人說我們要全力捍衛中華民國首先請提出"},{"start":2767.637,"end":2769.158,"text":"好,謝謝麥委員,謝謝卓院長下一位請沈伯陽委員質詢"},{"start":2805.558,"end":2813.084,"text":"有沒有聲音有有謝謝副院長那有請院長跟那個部長謝謝那個左院長還有劉部長謝謝兩位請"},{"start":2825.273,"end":2844.427,"text":"森委員好院長好我今天的問題大概只有兩個因為我想說總質詢的時間並沒有所謂問幾個大方向因為第一個題目是跟內政部比較有關所以可能會請市方部長來回答第二個問題可能會跟部會的協調比較有關所以可能會請院長第一個問題是在"},{"start":2848.712,"end":2876.521,"text":"就是因為這個新聞的關係我們都可以一直看到就是這個全社會這個防衛任性就現在這個總統府已經召開了這個第一次的會議但因為有一個這個所謂40萬名利一直被強調我昨天在國防外交委員會其實也非常多的委員來造謠就是說對於這個40萬名利的解釋跟我們心目中講的不太一樣不斷的去提到說這是民兵又或者說是不是要上戰場等等之類的一個論述"},{"start":2878.241,"end":2894.188,"text":"但是我們先不管說這一方面的謠言到底長什麼樣子因為畢竟媒體鋪天蓋地在這邊的報導其實是非常的誤導那我總覺得這邊有幾個細項我想問一下第一個就是大概在2022年左右就是我們的管主委那時候也是立法委員"},{"start":2894.768,"end":2918.721,"text":"他在質詢的時候其實那時候有提到他說這個民力的部分當時是51萬51萬結果現在降到大概47也就是民力有減少所以也就是說當我們講到40萬這個民防人力的時候看起來好像是比過往的人更減少了那我不知道是說計算的標準是現在不一樣了還是說的確我們的民防人力有減少的狀況"},{"start":2920.254,"end":2935,"text":"謝謝沈委員的關心我非常清楚這個總統府所召開的全社會防衛任性一共有五大分組那內政部所負責的是屬於可治民利這一組那所以在內政部的管轄內我們一定要根據我們的法律上的授權"},{"start":2935.76,"end":2964.959,"text":"我們現在所根據的法律授權來自於民防法災害防救法還有這個替代役管理條例那如果可以再延伸的話可以跟警察法跟消防法一起來折算所以呢我們按照這樣子的方式包括民防的這個民力的這個整編的部分的落在警消為主所以我們算出來大概基本上再加上一部分是屬於志願團體的像志工團體這一些我們志工團體所酌算的比較不多也就是說他如果平常只有上課兩小時四小時我們的"},{"start":2965.399,"end":2990.788,"text":"沒有把它算在內所以真正則算出來大概是落在40萬到41萬左右所以這個是我們很正確的一個說法提供給這個省委員參考確實的反而是人力上的一個減少那剛剛這個部長有提到法規其實我覺得法規還是最重要的畢竟法規本身就有規定有多少然後或者說是什麼樣的編組是在這個民防體系裡面所以我這邊有整理這個中央主管機關我們最主要這四種不同的這個"},{"start":2991.508,"end":3017.43,"text":"民防防護團﹚架構圖﹚裡面的人數﹚這個下面全部都是民防團隊編組演習扶勤支援軍事勤務辦法這個是第9條這個是17、18、19條這個是21條其實這都是非常清楚的事情所以我不是很清楚為什麼說在這個不管是在媒體上面或者說我們有些立法委員一直沒有去看法條所以他們完全不知道說這個民防人力到底在哪裡"},{"start":3018.058,"end":3035.359,"text":"是 報告省委員我相信很多人他們大概有點斷章取義根據民防法裡面或是根據我們全社會防衛這個韌性裡面所標示的最重要的一件事情就是維持我們台灣的社會穩定也就是說我們這麼多的這個民力的部分維持台灣的社會穩定或是包括"},{"start":3036.219,"end":3062.081,"text":"嚇嚇的包括衛福交通或者是經濟農業等等臺灣社會的穩定是我們目前最大的一個需要做的任務編組尤其我們知道天災才是目前臺灣所面對到的最大的一個挑戰那維持臺灣社會穩定還有維持政府的正常運作然後第三個是支援軍事勤務這些都在我們通過多年的民防法裡面第二條寫得非常的清楚所以內政部是按照民防法裡面的規範一步一步往前推進的"},{"start":3063.092,"end":3064.553,"text":"那我這邊想要確定一件事情就是"},{"start":3090.533,"end":3118.247,"text":"因為按照權動署這樣的一個架構﹖他的一個綱領﹖他有八大計畫﹖他的右下角這邊有交通動員準備方案﹖然後有這個跟教育部比較有關的一些﹖精神動員﹖財力動員﹖等等之類的這一些動員的人﹖多少其實也是算﹖人力﹖但我不是很確定的事情就是﹖當我們在講這個40萬的時候﹖我們也把這個交通的﹖或者說今天跟這個科技動員的﹖可能速發的那些人有算進來﹖還是沒有算進來"},{"start":3121.713,"end":3144.429,"text":"我跟委員補充一下第一個您現在所說的動員準備綱領這個部分應該是全民防衛動員就是全動法裡面全動法的主政機關是國防部但是有一部分是內政部來配合的就有點像您剛所說你再問到有關科技的部分有關交通的部分有關衛生的部分在於我們全社會防衛任性的話它就是屬於特種防護團"},{"start":3145.31,"end":3174.435,"text":"也就是我們常常在提到如果是關鍵基礎設施比如說可能是台電的電廠或是中油的油廠或者是中華電信等等這些單位那他們這些單位呢就要根據我們的需求提出專業的訓練成立特種防護團來做有關防護的工作那就是跟我跟剛剛跟您報告的一樣在平時的時候呢他就是維持他們自己本身的運作的正常然後跟外界要提供電提供油然後提供那個有關電信的溝通這個交通等等這個部分"},{"start":3174.975,"end":3175.115,"text":"主席"},{"start":3190.302,"end":3215.166,"text":"感謝因為現在目前來講這幾個的進度我是在各部會的時候去問說這個目前的進度到什麼地方那當然我會想知道說譬如說右上角這個部分因為是內政部主責其實40萬目前的計算比較多是還是在內政部這一個就右上角這一個部分那關於這個內政部因為在2023年的時候已經有開始在盤點民防人力然後接下來可能會有一些教育上的一些這個課程的一個改寫"},{"start":3215.971,"end":3230.278,"text":"還包含在最後一行這一個這邊可能有點擋到就是替代役的這一個人力的動員我去年我這還沒有進來立法院之前我有去幫替代役上過課所以呢但是這個上面這兩個目前的進度為何我可能之後在內政委員會的時候再來詢問部長"},{"start":3231.478,"end":3256.772,"text":"因為這個部分我覺得麻煩的地方是因為現在預算要編但因為預算編了之後有可能是譬如說我們針對這個的訓練我們編大量的預算但也有可能我們不需要大量的預算它可能只是課程的變更因為原來的課程可能我們也知道可能有時候是跟這個民防沒有什麼太大的關係那如果是課程內容的修改它可能不一定需要那麼大的一個預算擺在那一邊所以關於這個細項我可能到內政委員會的時候再來詢問"},{"start":3257.512,"end":3257.532,"text":"委員長"},{"start":3280.394,"end":3292.243,"text":"教育部退場機制以後給內政部納管我們會把大部分替代役的訓練放在中州學院來幫忙處理這部分比較多會落在訓練跟教材的經費我想這也非常重要目前為止我們主要的功能分成兩個"},{"start":3299.629,"end":3323.299,"text":"致安維護組以及消防應變組這兩項才是目前我們臺灣社會上非常急需的部分所以未來不管是訓練也好或是教材也好或是一部分的設備我們都要希望透過114年的預算把它補充這樣子比較快速可以進入我們臺灣的全社會防衛任性裡面也協助現在的警消或是一警一消做一部分的工作上面的支援"},{"start":3324.279,"end":3340.855,"text":"謝謝部長因為我認為這個訓練跟教材的這個改變很重要那希望錢能夠花在島口上那接下來我想問一下就是第二個問題這可能最主要是要問院長的就是中國威脅的問題那這邊呢中國威脅呢這個我在這一個最近呢我們針對中國的威脅把它分成幾個主要的面向"},{"start":3341.736,"end":3364.563,"text":"包含軍事威脅﹑社會上的滲透﹑輿論的影響﹑左上角所謂的經濟的影響﹑政治整複的滲透還包含法律戰﹑外交戰等等之類的在這邊我發現在台灣的法規在盤點的時候我們發現我們對於經濟安保這個部分經濟安全這個部分保護的是稍微比較少一點我們經濟部隊產業當然也是比較保護"},{"start":3367.283,"end":3386.312,"text":"2019 年日本已經從經濟安保法有一系列的法律不斷的通過這個部分我們就會對於中國有關的滲透可能應對的不一定那麼得當我先從幾個小例子開始這個例子其實非常的小這個例子是有人在網路上分享他是說他這個新兵他要去當兵的這個路上"},{"start":3387.272,"end":3412.68,"text":"結果看到遊覽車上面在放解放軍為共產主義奮鬥終生我們去稍微想了一下這件事情到底會怎麼發生第一個如果是國防部直接包的車發生當然我們要問國防部說他在包車的時候到底有沒有去注意這件事情但他也有可能只是單純比如說新兵他們自己有輔委輔委自己去找遊覽車遊覽車來載他們可能是要往來高鐵站"},{"start":3416.181,"end":3416.561,"text":"民政局：國防部"},{"start":3446.161,"end":3446.181,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":3475.808,"end":3494.183,"text":"經濟安全已經是總統在和平四大支柱裡面的一項當然就是現在國家會積極的來維護國家安全重要的一環那很多的威脅有形的無形的我覺得無形的威脅文化上的威脅更是每天每時在進行的"},{"start":3494.915,"end":3516.042,"text":"像剛剛委員所提到這個案例我們知道他是在9月23號臺中市政府在載送一些經典朋友們這個義南的一個車輛上面現在的說明是說司機自行但是我是認為這個就是一個警覺心跟習慣性的問題剛剛委員也非常的清楚說我們又有法律的嚴肅的這個看這個問題也許"},{"start":3518.49,"end":3518.51,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":3536.738,"end":3557.168,"text":"行為人的行為注意的太陽我們可以在契約之外的精神或契約裡面的適合的文字來做一些說明而不是用直接的裁判我想我們可以繼續這樣的努力但是總之這種努力是全面但是總還會有一些漏洞中央跟地方要合力來填補這些漏洞才能完全執行"},{"start":3559.858,"end":3575.816,"text":"這個案例是臺中市政府的兵役徵集就我們所知道他大概是用外面的遊覽車把服兵役的年輕人送到軍營裡面去所以國防部還沒有接收的時候是前半截是臺中市政府的兵役徵集"},{"start":3577.418,"end":3577.558,"text":"﹚發言委員："},{"start":3594.845,"end":3613.556,"text":"謝謝因為對我來講就是說它不一定是對方惡意一定要做什麼滲透的問題但一旦是我們在契約上面或者說我們並沒有去規範的時候它本來就有這個空間可以去做但是剛剛院長跟部長都有提到它是地方政府地方政府來做這件事情的時候我們有時候根本就沒有辦法管到地方政府它要怎麼做"},{"start":3614.256,"end":3614.957,"text":"在今年大概3月質詢的時候就有提到"},{"start":3630.33,"end":3647.641,"text":"那時候剛好也是在跟這個海委會在質詢的過程提到說他們可能在觀光方面可能在產業方面故意繞過我們的中央政府去跟地方談那等於用共產黨典型的模式用地方來包圍中央你今天中央不跟我好我地方來跟我好"},{"start":3647.961,"end":3649.402,"text":"臺灣的民意代表及相關業者主動繞開民進黨政府和中國直接交流"},{"start":3673.076,"end":3701.834,"text":"這下面這一段呢中國與金門開始積極尋找新的合作點來想辦法規避民進黨帶來的兩岸關係的不穩定因素啦那再來呢就是呢這個之前的陸委會其實已經提過了說照理說如果今天兩岸條例第5條的規範涉及公權力的事項沒有經過授權是不能夠簽署任何相關的協議嘛什麼等等之類的但因為中國在國外現在做的方式很多譬如說他們之前呢我先把報告台的案例譬如說之前就發生過美國特定的州他就直接在討論說"},{"start":3702.674,"end":3703.354,"text":"關於兩岸事務都是中央的職權"},{"start":3757.401,"end":3765.244,"text":"好,謝謝沈委員好,謝謝卓院長下一位請廖先祥委員質詢"},{"start":3787.21,"end":3790.452,"text":"謝謝副院長那一樣邀請我們的卓院長請卓院長備詢廖委員好院長好院長其實我最近收到了一個糾紛案有一個政府單位採購一包米"},{"start":3811.909,"end":3840.196,"text":"那這個政府單位收到的時候發現這包米裡面有兩包有兩粒米黑了那壞了因此採購人員選擇不簽收但是這個商家也不寄一包沒有問題的米過來現在就這樣在這邊請問院長是建議這個採購單位的採購人員睜一隻眼閉一隻眼把這包有問題的米收下來還是請這個商家的老闆寄一包新的過來"},{"start":3842.432,"end":3854.177,"text":"買賣一種契約在民法上的契約雙方出賣人這一方他必須要有對瑕疵擔保的責任任何的瑕疵都應該要做適當的這個回復原狀或是彌補"},{"start":3857.398,"end":3883.395,"text":"我想這個是法律上的要求一個東西它有一個完整性不能說可能有大部分是好的少部分有問題的那就要硬要人家吞進去對不對那我想院長應該非常清楚我舉這個例子我就是要提我們的總預算案那我們這次的總預算案您認為是立法院二一杯葛嗎我覺得立法院是對行政院所"},{"start":3885.877,"end":3913.931,"text":"提出的理由還不甚了解我們希望之後繼續的溝通所以您到過了這麼久的時間院長還不了解我們立法院可能包括國民黨民進黨抱歉啦國民黨民眾黨還有無黨籍的委員沒有將總預算賦為的原因您還沒有到現在為止沒有來了解我是說大院不了解行政院這是編列預算的原因所以我們會繼續溝通是立法院不了解行政院編列的原因"},{"start":3914.98,"end":3944.105,"text":"那這個立法院的立場 院長應該非常清楚主要有三點一個法律案一個法律案的問題就是原住民的禁法補償條例這個東西是法律案那還有兩個立法院的主決議那就是這個健保點值每點0.9還有另外一個是公糧收購價的問題這兩個是立法院的主決議好 我們先撇開立法院的主決議不講立法院的主決議畢竟不是法律"},{"start":3944.622,"end":3952.585,"text":"那針對這個立法院通過的中華民國的法律那立法院好像有一些疑義是不是"},{"start":3953.396,"end":3974.737,"text":"是的,委員我們也應該了解﹖如果用一個法律﹖就要求行政院編足預算﹖將來立法院通過了更多更多的法律﹖行政院就必須編列更多更多的預算﹖這個就打破了行政院制定編列預算﹖立法院審議預算的這樣常規﹖也是憲法賦予兩院共同的決定"},{"start":3978.22,"end":3979.681,"text":"我們行政院114年編列的總預算"},{"start":4003.971,"end":4021.332,"text":"所編列的每一塊錢都是立法院通過的法律我們行政院依照這個法律來編列總預算他才有他的釋法性但是今天我們行政院似乎特別的針對了原住民進法補償條例的這條法律"},{"start":4024.104,"end":4033.293,"text":"好像選擇性的執法阿綠的制定跟完成他可以請行政院去執行某一個政策這個政策如何執行時間計畫預算應該讓行政院來處理委員"},{"start":4039.042,"end":4053.396,"text":"大院是監督阿所以院長認為說可能這6萬塊太急了明年來不及編如果一個計畫預算都是由立法院提出立法院本身再來監督那就違反了兩院如果說院長認為這個美工請6萬塊"},{"start":4056.098,"end":4081.213,"text":"可能我們法律案通過 總統公布之後的時候我們的總預算已經變得差不多了我們很難去挪我們以後想辦法去怎麼把它補足包括您剛剛可能有些人說用基金階制印往後年度可能再把它補足等等的立法院是這樣的心態嗎還是說認為只要行政院通過了法律只要跟這個單價跟金額有關的都不應該"},{"start":4082.776,"end":4091.025,"text":"我說法律本身可以要求行政院執行某一種政策但是這個政策的執行的過程行政院必須提出整套的計畫"},{"start":4092.005,"end":4118.023,"text":"他必須也衡量所有所有部會在編列預算以國家政策推動的整體性要走我就跟部長報告像這一次除了原住民進法補償條例還有其他許多的法律立法院通過的法律都有明定在法律中明定政府應該編列的法律預算的金額單位"},{"start":4119.964,"end":4127.654,"text":"立法院國家的法律還有有沒有經過協商人民要不要遵守的問題以後沒有經過協商通過了法律人民可以不遵守嗎"},{"start":4136.786,"end":4150.557,"text":"所謂協商不是形式上的協商是我們對共同推動的實施法律總統公布就是法律了還有尊不尊守的問題啊沒有問題我們來看一下其他市長的法律我們到下一張這個就剛剛講的啦 下一張這個可能主決議啦 總統講的話也不是法律啦或許挑不了這個民眾自有公平啦 沒關係下一張"},{"start":4166.479,"end":4179.786,"text":"這個也是立法院通過的一個法律有機農業獎勵補助辦法跟原住民進法補償條例非常的類似有面積單位每公頃有錢6萬、24萬、8萬請問一下有機農業獎勵及補貼辦法行政院有沒有編組"},{"start":4185.538,"end":4210.605,"text":"我覺得這個要經過行政立法兩院之間來協調就某一個政策同意在一定的時程或編築一定的預算像我們這樣在執行在進法補償這件事情顯然不是如此我們在草野協商的過程當中提出說如果編到4萬塊行政院是可以接受的但是在那個過程就沒有辦法這樣執行如果每個法律都是這樣子"},{"start":4212.385,"end":4237.398,"text":"這樣對行政院的壓力是等於形成對國人國家財務紀律最大的壓力所以依照院長的講法我們的政府面對法律可以選擇性的一個執行不是選擇性我們行政院面對中華民國的法律可以看得順眼的就執行看不順眼的我就不遵守嗎委員請不要用選擇性這兩個字如果你用選擇性我就在說不要用壓迫性"},{"start":4239.517,"end":4249.486,"text":"這是法律阿這是法律吧這是立法院通過的法律總統頒布吧我們不要用選擇性我也不要用這個字眼這是互相協調的如果協調到一個我們認為財政的負擔底下可以而且它符合"},{"start":4260.656,"end":4283.713,"text":"循序漸進的增加可以從3萬塊一下跳到6萬塊哪一個國家的補貼政策是有這樣的目前我們的行政院到目前為止沒有釋出善意的來跟立法會公布說就像我剛剛一開始講的或許總統頒布的時候我們行政院明年的總預算已經編的差不多了我們很難去挪這個可能20多億的一個10多億20多億的預算進來"},{"start":4285.054,"end":4295.209,"text":"那可以來跟我們立法院協商說明年度或許很難上路我們用其他辦法來補足那往後年度我們逐漸把它上路那目前的情況就是將在這邊阿"},{"start":4296.786,"end":4318.038,"text":"我們行政院就什麼都不做啊整天在那邊這個錢只有好啦我不要講一些政治性的攻擊的話啦那目前就是兩院沒有直接溝通嘛不要認為這個錢少這個代表的意義就是兩院之間有沒有遵照整個預算編列制定跟審議的兩院的權力分立來看"},{"start":4318.698,"end":4331.704,"text":"我們在乎的是我們的行政院有沒有依法編列預算所以以後任何立法院通過的法律沒有經過行政院的認可這個法律就沒有辦法生效嗎以後立法院沒有經過"},{"start":4339.188,"end":4362.726,"text":"協商照院長講立法院通過的法律在通過前沒有跟立法院協商獲得共識這個法律就不用生效嗎從此以往所有的法律都是兩院協商過的哇這個立法院太侵權了吧沒有行政院同意的沒有經過協商行政院認可的法律"},{"start":4363.891,"end":4380.896,"text":"行政院可以不遵守律法院飛掉了啦難怪之前很多人說律法院是行政院的立法局律法院經過了法律居然要行政院同意有什麼奇怪的道理啊協商是立法院內部草野的協商協商是一個過程啊協商的結果是要順行政院的意嗎"},{"start":4382.568,"end":4382.788,"text":"我執政之後"},{"start":4412.625,"end":4427.75,"text":"可能上任的第一天就是克遵中華民國的憲法遵守中華民國的法律我講這個是行政部門最基本最基本的責任當然不浪費公帑啊所以我們對所有的預算都會這個原住民進發補償條例對院長是浪費公帑是不是"},{"start":4432.592,"end":4435.235,"text":"違反國家財政紀律違反國家財政紀律的編法就是讓我們在這種狀況底下去施衡整個預算的編列"},{"start":4448.07,"end":4467.931,"text":"好,下一頁這個也是啦,就舉個例啦,就是剛剛補充一下啦,這個也是舉個例啦,交通部加速擴大吸引國際公安課,獎助辦法,境外獎勵每人五千也明定啦,明定金額啦,下一頁老農津貼也一樣啦,明定金額啦,那可能院長認為說這個沒有經過"},{"start":4471.75,"end":4476.834,"text":"有經過行政院的同意立法院的文化就是這樣子如果說立法院通過我原提的法律案會增加行政院預算的話可能都是不太恰當的"},{"start":4499.187,"end":4521.453,"text":"委員可以提一個法案希望行政院做哪些政策但這個政策如何執行計畫預算都要行政院來編列執行完之後接受委員的監督 這樣才是兩院的制衡我懂 我懂 我懂但是我們的總統好像不是這麼認為"},{"start":4523.066,"end":4547.017,"text":"民國9月7年3月14號國民年金法部份台灣修正法案提案人柯建民、賴清德、葉怡菁第52條之一新增項目新增項目這個分完這是生育給付特別規定就是可能在國民年金在生育的部分特別增加了一些預算增加預算的部分就是一定是國家"},{"start":4548.038,"end":4573.074,"text":"要增編預算在院長的眼裡這可能有點違反兩院的願績後來有沒有通過那下一頁請問委員後來有沒有通過訂獎勵再生能源發電條例這個也是提案人非常多藍綠都有藍綠都有包括我們的賴清德總統這個也是每電收購多少元也是要求國家增編預算後來有沒有通過"},{"start":4573.954,"end":4601.189,"text":"財政能源條例現在不是被罵得很慘嗎?有沒有通過財政能源條例應該有,現在在上路吧買了一天不就用這個那就是行政兩位互相,兩位協調的結果可是剛剛院長說我們立法委員提的預算增加國家編列的預算我有點的大舌頭不好意思剛剛院長說我們立法委員提的法律案如果會增加國家預算的話這個東西可能不太恰當"},{"start":4601.889,"end":4619.638,"text":"我都說要經過兩院的協調才可以總統都一直在這麼做啊經常斷了我一句話,這樣不好,這樣會造成大家的誤會這個金額更高了,97年7月8號當然是民主進步黨立法院黨團提案,但這時候可能我們的賴清德總統是黨團幹部,一樣有提案"},{"start":4625.441,"end":4643.279,"text":"可能那時候有一些金融風暴那希望政府增編一些經費政府擴大公共投資經費上限583億元那其中也有一些個人的細項包括本人4千元、撫養親屬美人4千元也是有一個預算的規模"},{"start":4644.02,"end":4660.473,"text":"跟一個單價的問題好像在院長的眼裡都不是那麼的恰當那如果要通過都要請政院我們這一代政治人物不要用故意這種的方式來誤解大家我沒有說立法院不能提這個案"},{"start":4661.133,"end":4662.554,"text":"總預算將局賴統統目前神隱除了在媒體上面"},{"start":4683.372,"end":4701.64,"text":"發一些言打打嘴砲嘴在野糖之外用情緒勒索的治水預算設服預算綁架衛浴法邊的預算之外總統好像有一些正事沒做啦中華民國憲法第44條這個院與院之間的紛爭除本憲法規定外的召集各位院長委員情緒性的發言解決不了實質問題"},{"start":4709.741,"end":4716.035,"text":"好,謝謝廖委員下一位我們請葉元之委員質詢"},{"start":4755.387,"end":4755.728,"text":"請卓院長"},{"start":4767.408,"end":4784.675,"text":"市長好我想說先針對我們板橋有一個地方人是非常關心的一個都市計畫跟院長澄清因為這個都市計畫已經拖非常久了當初新北市政府第一次是102年的時候送到內政部後來因為退回公展又整合地方意見"},{"start":4785.575,"end":4802.483,"text":"所以整合了8年,110年再送到內政部這就是我們的福州都市計畫那110年送到內政部之後呢,內政部在111年的2月開了第一次的都委會的專案小組然後因為覺得8年過太久了,所以要退回"},{"start":4803.283,"end":4823.016,"text":"叫新北市政府再次公展再整合地方意見然後新北市政府112年10月又報內政部那目前呢又開了兩次的專案小組一次是在今年5月7號另外一次是9月26號那我特別利用我們總質詢的時間跟院長講是因為這個都市計畫真的很久了"},{"start":4823.816,"end":4850.269,"text":"那也經歷了蔡總統時代歷任行政院長過去有行政院長跟內政部長到了我們那個地方都被地方的里長問這個都市計畫結果都打不出來結果地方人士就覺得說政府好像很不重視這個都市計畫所以我今天特別利用這個機會來跟院長當面跟你報告希望說你也來關心這個案子因為這個福州都市計畫大概對我們地方發展很重要第一個它是"},{"start":4851.618,"end":4875.867,"text":"有非常多的都市更新的規劃第二個它也有幫助到我們太阪輕軌的興建因為太阪輕軌的部分道路必須要經過區段徵收然後還有就是這個都市計畫一直沒有通過導致於我們地方有很多污水下水道也沒有辦法興建那當然這個都市計畫通過之後對於中央的社會住宅的興建也有相關的配合因為也提撥5%的地"},{"start":4877.668,"end":4893.284,"text":"注入此類還有安全的問題所以我在這邊希望院長可以承諾因為實在拖太久了能不能我們設定一個階段性的目標在明年中的時候可以讓專案小組的可以送出 送到大會去 不知道可不可以"},{"start":4894.878,"end":4897.48,"text":"因為拖太久了所以每一次專案小組都在前行提要你知道嗎"},{"start":4917.017,"end":4926.268,"text":"我先說明一下我的一些問題因為每一次專案小組都在前進提要都在講說之前發生這個案子是怎樣怎樣怎樣為什麼 因為是在拖太久"},{"start":4927.202,"end":4945.105,"text":"所以這個又浪費了非常多的時間然後每一次專案小組跟專案小組中間又隔非常久你看上一次是5月7號後來就排了9月26號5月7號之前又更是新北市政府是半年前就提報內政部半年之後才安排專案小組這其實都是浪費時間"},{"start":4946.326,"end":4966.184,"text":"然後再來就是一次專協組所提出來的結論我看到也是覺得非常的 我不太能接受因為他說叫新北市政府再提供有一些路段牌圍區段徵收的原則到底是什麼然後他說叫新北市政府去調查那個福州當地的現況以及違章工廠使用情形"},{"start":4966.804,"end":4995.057,"text":"這些東西這些資料早就有了結果你隔了這麼久開的專案小組還叫人家在做早就做的事情這就把這個都市計畫的審議變成一種作文比賽感覺好像就沒有很想要這個都市計畫通過所以我就是在這邊請院長關心請部長關心我現在還沒講完請院長關心請部長關心這個拖很久是我們地方的期待趕快設定一個階段性的目標我們希望明年中的時候把它送出大會"},{"start":4995.717,"end":5012.185,"text":"然後你每一次會的中間的間隔短一點然後不要一直前情回顧然後也不會不要一直要求地方作文比賽那這是我們地方期待我知道院長過去也是也做過立委也是民進黨有出生我們都接地氣 懂民心部長也是 不知道可以嗎"},{"start":5013.1,"end":5013.48,"text":"院長可以嗎可以嗎 院長"},{"start":5043.342,"end":5050.176,"text":"就是明年中我們設定一個階段性的目標嘛我們是有階段性的目標在往前推動沒有錯阿盡量啦好不好"},{"start":5051.513,"end":5076.538,"text":"你現在就唸資料而已啊你也沒有了解我們的案子啊你也沒去開會啊但是你有剛有提到污水下水道的部分啊我也要跟你講污水下水道是因為要經過區段徵收因為污水下水道要經過一些公有土地嘛那邊就卡住了嘛經過區段徵收重劃之後就可以興建金北市政府在10月1號的時候已經提送了這個整個設計報告因為我還有其他議題你在那邊唸資料就等於有點浪費我的時間沒有我已經跟你講我們現在的實際進度"},{"start":5078.138,"end":5081.24,"text":"我們可以請內政部把這個開會的時間把它弄得緊密一點"},{"start":5108.298,"end":5108.518,"text":"請你下去"},{"start":5136.786,"end":5160.313,"text":"好謝謝院長接下來齁我想跟請教一下剛剛國防部發布了一個非常重要的一個話題就是10月10號的時候中共要射火箭這個事情你知道嗎他現在已經發布國防部已經發布了這個很長一段階段他都在台灣的不是啦我問你剛剛的事情啦剛剛發布了啦說已經要射火箭要經過會通過台灣啦"},{"start":5163.383,"end":5190.216,"text":"這可能是不是之前講的國安單位掌握的聯合利劍B當時就已經說了可能會發射中程導彈沒有錯我希望他的演習是針對他自己所瑕有效範圍內做他自己軍事的演練對這種防害到區域安全印太地區安全跟穩定的動作希望中國能夠有所節制你在這邊呼籲他節制他就會節制嗎不會所以你的因應作為是什麼"},{"start":5191.36,"end":5216.914,"text":"我們做好自己的準備什麼啊就是所有的過程我們要請軍方單位能夠詳細的瞭解甚至監控瞭解不會對人民造成任何的威脅因為有關於中共聯合利劍逼這個計畫已經講了兩三天了那你現在是說要請國防部瞭解我記得事先都沒有掌握狀況嗎一直有瞭解一直有瞭解那你現在掌握的狀況是怎樣"},{"start":5218.682,"end":5247.181,"text":"很多事情我不便在這裏說不便中 那我們因應作為可以說嗎因應作為就是就以前現在這個不只是聯合利建B他過去有很多的演練啊我們都持續在了解當然是這樣 院長我現在是針對非常具體的問題在問你我現在針對非常具體的問題在問你那你告訴我SOP現在我們要做什麼然後全國台灣民眾要注意什麼那政府的作為是什麼"},{"start":5247.941,"end":5249.643,"text":"民眾想要知道因為軍演這個事情是很嚴重的問題"},{"start":5266.9,"end":5268.842,"text":"國安部發布這個訊息就是向國人表達我們對所有的狀況都非常的掌握清楚"},{"start":5294.023,"end":5321.881,"text":"我說說在國慶當中我們辦好國內的國慶我們的因應作為就是他發射他的導彈然後我們來辦我們的國慶這兩個不同的事情嘛他發射他導彈我也要吃飯啊我今天也來總質詢啊我們等一下該怎樣待怎樣這是一回事嘛我現在講的是針對他發射導彈我們的因應作為是什麼我們的因應作為不是辦國慶國慶是本來我們就要做的事因應作為是什麼當天是國慶所以我們也一定提高我們的"},{"start":5322.261,"end":5322.601,"text":"聽我講還知道的"},{"start":5345.501,"end":5345.961,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":5368.783,"end":5395.262,"text":"也有可能是目前沒有因應作為 你要去開會討論也有可能那總統府會不會召開國安會議 你應該也不曉得嘛 對不對總統要不要召開國安會議 總統自會有他的判斷即使不召開形式上的國安會議 在國慶這一個階段當中對國家安全的回顧一定是提高警告那院長 那我就來問一個 您可能會知道東西的因為你禮拜五中午的時候要跟韓院長吃和解飯嘛 對不對"},{"start":5396.257,"end":5397.917,"text":"議員長 您期待達到什麼效果?"},{"start":5420.422,"end":5433.416,"text":"我們期待國家繼續往前走預算能夠互相瞭解因為剛剛我聽你跟廖謙祥的答詢你覺得現在卡在立法院不了解您的立場對不對"},{"start":5435.066,"end":5463.684,"text":"是嗎?你剛剛是認為都是立法院的錯嗎?你都認為這是立法院的錯那在和解犯的時候你會這樣子教訓立法院嗎?說都是你們不了解我們啦還有立法院怎麼可以隨便通過法律呢?叫我們來執行你們的預算呢?你會這樣教訓?像剛剛這樣子去教訓那個副總召還是教訓那個韓院長嗎?怎麼會用教訓?那你會用什麼方式跟他溝通?怎麼會用教訓?那會用什麼方式溝通?我們在"},{"start":5464.997,"end":5468.04,"text":"院長你會講到說 哎呀治水預算一刻不能等啊 所以你們總預算趕快復違啊 你會講出這種話嗎"},{"start":5487.022,"end":5515.766,"text":"我心裡這麼想但是我認為 心裡這麼想現在的治水預算因為颱風風災所造成的一些災害要重建的治水預算不是早就在你的手裡了嗎這不是去年通過的嗎是今年度的對 今年度嘛所以一顆不能等講的是明年是不是所以你跟大家講一顆不能等講的是明年是不是明年的預算一顆不能等那這樣啦 院長一顆不能等以後治水預算都不要送來立法院了啦你直接行政院簽一簽馬上通過了啦"},{"start":5516.725,"end":5527.235,"text":"民主國家行政院長竟然會講出這種獨裁的話 我也是非常訝異民主國家行政院長竟然會講出這種獨裁的話 我也是非常訝異民主國家行政院長竟然會講出這種獨裁的話 我也是非常訝異民主國家行政院長竟然會講出這種獨裁的話 我也是非常訝異"},{"start":5541.837,"end":5550.779,"text":"明天總計算省到幾月幾號當然希望今年度能夠完成啊今年度是不是到12月31號對嘛所以現在你一直講一刻不能等好像是現在立刻要通過一樣"},{"start":5554.582,"end":5565.891,"text":"到12月30號你跟大家講說明年的治水預算一刻不能等請大家這一天通過我贊成但是現在還有三個月的時間你說一刻不能等所以這個就是話術在電視上這樣講話說明年的治水預算"},{"start":5574.498,"end":5600.404,"text":"今年治水預算早就在你手上了嘛現在大家省的是明年的嘛那你說一刻不能等好像現在就要通過一樣今年12月31號通過就可以嘛院長我跟你講既然啦要和解飯要吃飯大家不要吵架嘛你講出這種治水預算一刻不能等大家就生氣了這個吃飯打不到效果我只願我那個和解飯因為我沒辦法去吃啦我是建議說建議有些話不要講好然後再來齁"},{"start":5604.085,"end":5605.746,"text":"蔣委員沒有辦法溝通我講的是明年度550億"},{"start":5622.878,"end":5644.005,"text":"現在搞得好像是原住民在擋治水預算但是我的原住民朋友啊他說這個淨法補償條例從3萬到6萬這個東西這個不是恩己欸這不是福利欸這個是應該給原住民的補償欸要不然這樣子啊你讓他土地使用嘛讓他可以開發他賺到的錢絕對超過一年6萬塊"},{"start":5645.245,"end":5670.461,"text":"可是國家叫他不要開發因為水土保持要給他補償變成一種恩惠政府已經對你們很好了啦你不要吵啦包括那個原住民主委講說原住民的預算今年已經比去年多變了12%哇賽要原住民感恩戴德喔把他們當作什麼啊重點是這是補償這是正義這個不是恩己不是恩惠我希望原住民主委"},{"start":5674.704,"end":5675.987,"text":"謝謝葉委員謝謝卓院長下一位請黃仁委員質詢"},{"start":5699,"end":5702.343,"text":"黃偉豪我們先看一下這三張影片"},{"start":5722.444,"end":5741.627,"text":"這是我們蔡英文包含賴清的總統還有我們卓院長這是你們戳穿了這個衣服就表示你認同我們在台灣原住民是一家人是嗎"},{"start":5743.8,"end":5767.417,"text":"我上次好像跟委員說過你看你的著裝的衣服有多帥我說原住民朋友曾經是臺灣這塊土地上唯一的主人那現在我們所有的人民都是臺灣這個國家共同的主人院長你看一下沒錯原住民的榮耀對不對你認同嘛那既然認同我們區區的一個預算而且不是違法"},{"start":5769.189,"end":5790.244,"text":"通過是經過了72位跨黨派而且是三讀通過是憲法保障那既然這樣的話行政院也應該尊重我們區區的一個禁法補償的這一些預算"},{"start":5791.277,"end":5806.163,"text":"那當然你們現在又有認為要補充或者是園民會要從這個原住民的綜合發展基金要挪用如果挪用的話我們原住民的發展基金已經破產"},{"start":5807.472,"end":5834.017,"text":"沒有任何再提供給我們全國國人包含他的福利的這些基金包含貸款基金以上的各項的福利基金已經沒有錢來對我們原住民的國人怎麼交代所以現在三兆兩千多億的預算我們去這個14億為什麼"},{"start":5837.031,"end":5854.839,"text":"你們著穿了這個衣服也彰顯了對世界對國際認同我們台灣的原住民就是主人那既然這樣的話我們待會我們要討論的是福利政策教育土地"},{"start":5855.799,"end":5869.46,"text":"那禁法補償是國人最關心我們當然也感謝過去的立法委員包含現任的立法委員的努力當然我也要對我們國人要交代為什麼"},{"start":5870.458,"end":5899.757,"text":"因為現在很多國人包含原住民在誤解誤會說我們在擋這個總預算不是是退回總預算重新檢討再把我們的預算是不是可以編列出來因為原住民事務裡面不是那麼煩雜只是追求了一個對原住民的尊重對原住民的尊重今天我們禁法補償既然你們禁止開法"},{"start":5900.401,"end":5906.805,"text":"委員對原住民朋友的關心我們當然非常清楚我當然比不上你"},{"start":5928.936,"end":5955.403,"text":"但是我們會透過各種的機會去了解原住民朋友的文化需求生活我們希望大家融為一體這絕對也請委員不用懷疑開國以來到現在我們不是一個實用品也不是試用品我們是一個核心的價值原住民在台灣這一塊土地我們站起來在歷史角度我們絕對跟國際來發聲"},{"start":5958.784,"end":5979.063,"text":"因為我們是真正的台灣主人可是我們國家有沒有真正對原住民的角度一旦選舉總統選舉穿著原住民的衣服我是原住民的孩子但是選舉之後呢背後裡面沒有真正的給原住民的尊重"},{"start":5979.701,"end":5984.365,"text":"我跟委員報告歷年來有人民會成立以來今年的預算是最多的一次我們還編了28.16億"},{"start":6009.07,"end":6009.09,"text":"金華補償"},{"start":6029.309,"end":6053.577,"text":"那還不夠補還不夠給就是如果是一公頃要一公頃是6萬還不夠給的話當然我們就按歷年來的往歷循例由基金來做這個基金裡面是不能挪用的嘛這是違法的嘛那如果說到時候再挪用已經106年106年112年已經挪用到多少67億"},{"start":6055.518,"end":6079.248,"text":"你再用挪用14億在補貼這個金髮補償的時候是已經破產而且是違法如果基金他已經不過用了那我想我們會請求會拜託主席總書是不是再給他再挹注進來讓這個基金能夠繼續的維持我希望依法行政"},{"start":6081.038,"end":6106.508,"text":"我希望尊重我們立法院三讀通過這樣的議題行政院應該要尊重我們在過去裡面民進黨他們所提案的三讀通過的不就是依法行政不是通過了預算來追加甚至在這個預算法第79條可以追加預算就是依法行政就好了嘛"},{"start":6107.672,"end":6134.695,"text":"沒有違法也不會減少3兆2000多億的預算只是把裡面用在這個預算裡面應該尊重立法院的三度通過這才是一個真正尊重原住民我們並沒有違法報告委員您所提的就是一個整個預算的程序無論是年度預算或是追加預算您所提的剛剛所談的都是一個程序的問題我所在意的也是程序的問題"},{"start":6135.416,"end":6164.124,"text":"未來競發補償怎麼處理我現在心中沒有定案但是如果多倫就循預算程序來處理不可以談從2000年以後我們成立了多少對原住民朋友生活融在一起的各種政策跟部會當然希望加強所以這件事情是黨派的問題你這個說詞我希望你加強"},{"start":6165.685,"end":6192.121,"text":"這件問題不是黨派的問題是原則性的問題如果明年增加到更多那行政院也要再照編嗎不會吧所以今年也應該循序這種方式來協調才對我很願意跟大家談現在很多國人都誤會退回預算不是在黨預算好不好 麻煩你重視我們每一個委員所提出來的不是討伐"},{"start":6192.935,"end":6216.991,"text":"是講道理我們今天講道理我們今天區區的一個14億但是對原住民的來講他是一個很大很大的一個福利政策因為這就是一個補償他們的缺失那這個不就是一個照顧國人的角色你穿著這個衣服不就是對我們原住民是肯定"},{"start":6217.791,"end":6219.512,"text":"委員一直在責怪我們行政院為什麼不尊重"},{"start":6238.317,"end":6239.058,"text":"另外就是在過去蔡英文承諾"},{"start":6264.5,"end":6290.249,"text":"在原住民的自治法原住民的土地法及海域法原住民的語言及發展原住民的語言發展法2017年公布原住民的自治及原住民的土地及海域尚未送到立法院但是我已經在本院本席已經在第1個會期已經提送我也希望"},{"start":6290.894,"end":6318.694,"text":"行政院裡面有自己的版本土地法跟海域法那另外我現在講的是內政部長我們講的是國土計劃法現在全國紛紛擾擾而且在對你們國土計劃法的不諒解很多縣市為什麼不送審到我們立法院給內政部原因在哪裡在送審的話我們土地法就判死了"},{"start":6319.534,"end":6346.546,"text":"看是什麼把所有的地方的農地變為國有國一國二國三農一農二農三的限制因地制宜沒有在想你們只是希望你們在執行這個任務要完成可是有沒有想到各縣市裡面在都市發展的前提之下都沒有真正的考量因地制宜的角色第一個我想問你"},{"start":6349.774,"end":6369.539,"text":"國土計劃法對原住民的土地產生了什麼樣的影響以下有6個問題要就教院長包含內政部長包含人民會主委第一個原住民傳統領域及傳統海域問題如何解決第二國土計劃法及原住民的傳統領域劃分"},{"start":6372.13,"end":6395.851,"text":"的問題如何解決．第3國土功能分區．劃設後原住民土地還能調整嗎．第4國土計劃法通過後．原住民的土地是否．無法自治．第5國土功能分區．分裂．可以蓋原住民傳統文化建築．可以嗎．第6"},{"start":6397.032,"end":6415.968,"text":"國土計劃會影響既有照領補助以禁法補償的資格請問你有沒有想到這6點你一下跳躍了我們延期法延期法憲法保障也就是你們民進黨總統陳水扁當時認同我們原住民的延期法"},{"start":6416.528,"end":6432.042,"text":"所以才有今天我們保障我們原住民的土地包含傳統領域但是你現在用國土計畫跳過了我們原住民的土地法還有海域法請問你有什麼樣對我們全國國人交代請說明"},{"start":6434.219,"end":6449.69,"text":"國土計畫法我跟委員報告其實這個法對原住民是有利的為什麼講呢因為你國土計畫法通過之後有一些原住民的土地管理規則會讓我們的土地等一下我請部長內政部長先回答我這個問題"},{"start":6451.391,"end":6474.388,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想我的想法跟原民會主委非常的相像我們的國土計劃法如果能夠順利通過的話對於原住民現在的土地保障反而會更多元以現在原住民的朋友們最關心的就是說在原住民的聚落保留地裡面這個房子的合法化的問題我想黃委員非常的清楚現在大概有14萬棟全台灣"},{"start":6476.93,"end":6495.511,"text":"我希望我希望完成的要保障原住民的土地法但是我希望你們也提出你們行政院版的第一個"},{"start":6496.212,"end":6496.232,"text":"為什麽?"},{"start":6519.673,"end":6549.208,"text":"因為你們沒有周遣的考量所以你不要因為你們要去執法執行然後罔顧民意這些要多聽聽各縣市的聲音當初在選舉的時候你們已經 原民會 內政部已經在廣外的來宣達說我們要在土地法裡面要趕快上路但是這幾個月來你看看"},{"start":6550.179,"end":6562.066,"text":"你看看全國的鄉親對政府的隱憂你們到底有沒有聽聽老百姓的聲音希望國土計畫法"},{"start":6562.799,"end":6581.8,"text":"延後而且我們認同我們已經有提案希望展延6年把所有的土地法而且要因地制宜考量他們的生計跟土地的開發包含地方的發展還有產業你們都要考量可不可以"},{"start":6582.5,"end":6584.241,"text":"你們可以行密監禁 行密監禁但是以大體來講的話"},{"start":6599.232,"end":6619.565,"text":"應該要展延6年嘛所以針對原住民的話你們許密限制嘛沒有叫你中斷阿沒有叫你中斷阿原住民本來是要保障的嘛但是其他的議題你們要真正的要考量地方的發展我們一定保障原住民的部分好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝卓院長下一位請紐許廷委員質詢"},{"start":6639.738,"end":6647.163,"text":"好,謝謝主席,行政院長內政部長有請來請院長還有內政部長備詢委員好院長早安我們就直接進入主題今天時間比較短,15分鐘而已我想請問一下,您會親自主持行政院大部分的院會對不對?"},{"start":6670.236,"end":6686.373,"text":"這個會找各地的縣市政府一起開會對不對那桃園市政府其實很常在行政院院會的時候去提到針對倉儲跟危險物品的納管談消防的議題請問院長知不知道背後的原因跟故事是什麼"},{"start":6687.708,"end":6700.863,"text":"之前有發生過大火的事件大家認為很需要就一個管制品必須要做一個有效的一個安全上的維護那機場大火院長有印象嗎競鵬競鵬是工廠的還有勒"},{"start":6704.488,"end":6706.05,"text":"是2022年3月10號的美孚倉儲大火"},{"start":6721.725,"end":6735.806,"text":"這把大火是桃園人心中永遠的痛因為它帶來的公害跟後面的損失是不計其數的不只是美孚的大火2022年4天過後3月14號在陽梅的家樂福同樣也是倉儲"},{"start":6737.308,"end":6766.167,"text":"發生了大火的事件大火的事件倉儲大火也不只是發生在桃園到2023年8月1號去年的時候這個林口的PC Home它一樣是倉儲的大火每一次這個火災的規模都很大救災的成本也非常高那證明了倉儲是火災的熱點是公害的溫床更是消防人員救災的巨大負擔院長跟部長應該不會反對這樣的說法這幾把大火應該我講了大家就有印象對不對"},{"start":6767.469,"end":6782.409,"text":"同意對不對好這個院長可能會想說這個突然之間在這邊提兩年前發生的美孚大火為什麼要就案重提啊這我要跟院長講講故事啊院長你知不知道或部長知不知道美孚大火的公害影響多少人"},{"start":6785.047,"end":6806.546,"text":"對相當的多因為他燃燒的這個肉類他燃燒的時間非常的長他影響的人數數萬人甚至到十萬人之普因為那個臭味基本上北桃園的市民都聞到了部長曾經聞過火場的味道嗎我知道我有去過那個其實是蠻可怕的所以火災不只是消防人員的損傷而已他其實也是公害的來源"},{"start":6808.533,"end":6831.773,"text":"今天不只是這個救災的問題我要跟院長跟部長講的是有一小群人他們叫美孚大火公害自救會因為這場大火發生之後後來我們發現政府其實沒有什麼樣的法源依據去裁罰相關的廠商公害造成的損失到最後由市民自行承擔有一小群人看不過去只好抱團自救自己組了自救會"},{"start":6832.754,"end":6852.635,"text":"然後去跟美孚這個廠商打官司如果看來這叫做小蝦米對大鯨魚小市民站大財團他們希望透過市民站出來的力量一方面他們要為自己討一口公道討一點公道二方面更重要的是我曾經在擔任議員的時候我曾經進行協助的時候他們就拜託我們"},{"start":6854.117,"end":6874.737,"text":"希望透過他們站出來打官司的這個行為希望讓各級政府重視這樣子倉促的大火悲劇不能再重演那個時候我是桃園市的議員後來我跟順利他也在我們同一個選區在我們蘆竹南崁地區我現在是桃園第一選區的選區民意代表受人之托、中人之勢"},{"start":6875.538,"end":6875.898,"text":"是的 這個身為民意代表"},{"start":6892.961,"end":6895.622,"text":"解決問題對不對所以這個方向目前這樣回答本席還算是非常滿意的我們希望"},{"start":6912.166,"end":6940.132,"text":"這樣子的大火悲劇不重演政府能夠重視並且進行制度上的調整今天是內政組的質詢所以我們馬上立法院也正在排審消防法所以我們還是回到救災的角度來討論這樣的事情回到防災救災的主軸請問院長部長要支援也可以我剛剛有講桃園的兩個大火一個是美孚一個是家樂福家樂福的大火救災的時間多久動員了多少資源兩位有概念嗎"},{"start":6941.345,"end":6957.39,"text":"抱歉我不清楚我知道非常多但是您非常關心有關消防人員或者是附近居民的安全我們也都非常的清楚好吧誠實也是上冊但我會希望有一個這個數字好我就把數字公布給兩位看就在時間40個小時20分鐘"},{"start":6960.717,"end":6961.498,"text":"那美孚呢?"},{"start":6975.387,"end":7002.864,"text":"要不要估一下這樣子的數字幾天吧我記得七天主要是悶燒悶燒對不對我告訴兩位不止七天啦美孚大火救災啦就實際上在壓制火勢的時間161個小時差不多是七天左右可是因為悶燒因為復燃因為他的倉儲的結構讓救災的難度提升所以這復燃悶燒變得大家束手無策後來出動了這個大鋼牙這些相關的機具"},{"start":7003.684,"end":7031.62,"text":"各式各樣的車次576輛次整個悶燒的時間21天超過500個小時一場火災動員的消防人力2163人次這數字應該滿驚人的吧 院長請問這個消防弟兄辛苦不辛苦非常辛苦我們應不應該從制度跟等等的角度去避免這樣的事情再次發生"},{"start":7033.352,"end":7036.804,"text":"如果從源頭能夠來避免這個事情就會減少他們的勤務量"},{"start":7037.605,"end":7065.018,"text":"好 那麼這兩場倉儲大火為什麼這麼的勞民傷財我們就直接講因為倉儲的火載量這我曾經在內政委員會質詢的時候消防組長答得非常快所謂的火載量就是單位面積可燃物完全燃燒的時候產生的熱能就是它易不易燃它容不容易引起火災倉儲的易燃的火載量不只不低於工廠甚至高於工廠甚多有四倍五倍不止"},{"start":7065.658,"end":7092.072,"text":"所以剛剛開頭的時候我跟兩位在在在質詢的時候兩位第一個想到的火災想到的是桃園的進棚工業大火想到的是屏東的名陽大火這是工廠對不對但是倉儲的易燃的性質跟燃燒的強度其實是不低於這樣工廠的一個狀況那院長請問現在倉儲的部分存放物流倉庫冷鏈倉庫等等他們有沒有在消防的裡面被正式的納管"},{"start":7093.407,"end":7121.996,"text":"我們曾經在院會裡面正式報告也討論過這一個事情所以我們也對於這個管制的方式有請內政部、消防署能夠跟地方政府也要加強的合作配合來處理這個事情你這樣講說加強配合然後應該要做對我們都知道應該要做嘛剛剛我講了不管是基於為這個小市民來做代言或者是從救災人力的節省跟預防的角度來說我們這邊都有非常好的共識對不對就是我們應該要做這件事情但現在做了沒有"},{"start":7122.639,"end":7122.979,"text":"現在清不清楚"},{"start":7137.229,"end":7154.077,"text":"我可不可以補充一下跟委員報告一下就消防員救災的角度來看在那個工廠管理輔導法以及我們消防法裡面要注意的是有關他這個工廠在儲存這些物資的時候是否有確實申報尤其我們有關於這個危險物質的部分"},{"start":7154.737,"end":7172.376,"text":"這一點我們從消防署的角度上面已經有加強也就是說出去救災的消防人員他們出去救災的時候馬上就知道說他的工廠裡面到底儲放什麼樣的物質這是最重要的一點再來一點就是說第一個倉儲跟工廠的所在地或是公司的所在地有時候是距離比較遙遠"},{"start":7173.357,"end":7188.292,"text":"所以他的防火或者他的滅火措施被忽略掉那這一點我們會從工廠管理輔導法跟我們消防法一起來補足會跟縣市政府來努力來改善現在我們認為會發生比較大的火警甚至造成比較大的傷亡的部分做改善"},{"start":7188.792,"end":7210.42,"text":"回答得不錯但差了點勇氣其實我希望從院長裡面就直面問題就以現行的機制來講其實這個納管也好申報也好都還有若干的改進之處其實是不夠的包含我們現在的倉儲其實定位是不明確的我跟你講工廠很明確工廠有一套所謂剛剛部長也講了叫做工廠管理輔導法裡面有消防的設備配置等等一些配套措施但是倉儲"},{"start":7211.4,"end":7228.929,"text":"有在工廠管理輔導法裡面嗎?其實是沒有的嘛對不對?那麼以我們目前現在消防法的規範：也沒有任何的條文去提到倉儲的部分應該要怎麼處理不過報告委員我們的消防署呢非常的認真就是說只要他有申報的話呢有任何火災的狀況呢站在我們的立場一定都會是遲緣的"},{"start":7230.186,"end":7250.902,"text":"當然是遲緣我們現在講的是我心裡總是看到火災的時候我總是感念消防弟兄的付出甚至看到他們犧牲的時候我是非常傷痛的但是我們之所以去強調這個事情就是防災要重於救災我們如果前期的配套措施做得好前期的制度設計的是好的預防於前其實就是幫第一線要進去打火的弟兄減輕負擔可是現行的規制裡面倉儲"},{"start":7254.284,"end":7280.296,"text":"也好這個部分的工廠甚至在申報的部分他其實是不夠確實的我現在看到行政院提出的消防法的版本裡面這個本席當然就有提自己的版本原因是什麼呢因為在行政院消防法的兩個問題第一個倉儲依然是被一個定位不明確的角度針對工廠他當然做了若干的修正針對消防員的權益也做了若干的努力這些本席都看在眼裡"},{"start":7280.856,"end":7305.962,"text":"但是倉儲還是被漏掉了那本期的選區發生這麼重要的事情桃園市政府也在院會裡面屢次提及這件事情的重要但我在消防行政院院版的消防法裡面並沒有看到相關條文的修正所以我今天一定要用總諮詢的時間來跟院長跟部長做釐清原因就在這個地方本期提出的意見來就教於這個兩位這個倉儲當然應該要納管本期的主張是"},{"start":7307.142,"end":7308.943,"text":"我為什麼要把一定規模以上的倉庫來做納入呢當然是因為先異後難嘛"},{"start":7327.798,"end":7343.189,"text":"規模大的它造成的影響災損等等的強度是比較高的那我甚至在裡面也有一定的授權條款就是說哪一些倉庫哪一些類型可以讓中央主管機關來擬定這樣子我們就可以針對不同型態的比如你放倉儲裡面存放的東西其實五花八門啊"},{"start":7343.969,"end":7358.717,"text":"他存的是易燃的油阿化學品阿這個紡織的棉布阿紙尿褲阿紙類品比如說林口PC Home的倉儲袋裡面都是衛生紙對不對那燒起來也是一發不可收拾那不能因為他是倉儲而不是工廠"},{"start":7359.477,"end":7378.287,"text":"然後就在這個地方被漏掉本期覺得這是非常奇怪的所以在我們的版本裡面就提要備制並且申報這我講什麼叫備制什麼叫申報也是第二個問題就是我們在行政院目前消防法的版本裡面我們只看到了備制備制的意思就是我這個工廠的負責人我只要準備好說我裡面有些什麼就好"},{"start":7378.851,"end":7401.872,"text":"但是我的準備不見得要讓政府知道啊我的備制萬一放在工廠的抽屜裡面大火燒起來他就在火場裡面的時候那備制變成這個流於表面我是覺得滿可惜的所以本席在這邊是主張啊不只是要備制也應該要申報對不對你要讓內政部讓消防弟兄非常清楚的了解可能發生火警的地方他的狀態是什麼"},{"start":7402.659,"end":7402.839,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7432.659,"end":7435.282,"text":"公共安全及職業安全衛生的危害僅以場所管制"},{"start":7449.576,"end":7472.07,"text":"並期望業者主動申報顯緣木求魚這就是我想法條有若干缺失可以改善的地方因為你只是期待他申報他不申報的時候到時候消防員就殉職了我們非常非常不希望看到這樣子的悲劇繼續重演這個沒有預防於前造成的後果我想是難以承載的輕叫做經濟損失"},{"start":7473.551,"end":7498.164,"text":"中呢叫做公害平傳啦重的話他會出人命犧牲消防弟兄所以我希望在消防法修法的過程之中行政院可以更開放的態度接納不同的意見我剛剛聽總質詢這樣一路談下來其實我們的溝通是非常順暢的這個部長跟院長也用非常開放的心態接受了倉儲納管這樣子的一個概念這樣的概念我們在修法的時候我們可以一樣用這樣子的心態來討論嗎"},{"start":7499.449,"end":7524.001,"text":"也謝謝委員希望能夠支持消防法趕快刪讀通過我們當然支持前面有一段沒有修就是因為我們這很重要的版本還沒有進來但進來之後我想我今天講院長我這樣目前為止講都還算很講道理謝謝委員的提醒如果現行送來的修法過程文字當中還不夠周圓我們共同來努力用最高標準的安全部長剛剛有提到雙軌併星所以消防法要修公服法也要修納進倉儲"},{"start":7527.764,"end":7529.594,"text":"納進倉儲這是確定是我們行政院接下來推動的方向嗎"},{"start":7531.352,"end":7532.313,"text":"時間跟委員報告"},{"start":7566.265,"end":7572.157,"text":"好,謝謝牛委員,也謝謝卓院長發言會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢,現在休息"},{"start":8249.714,"end":8277.137,"text":"國安委員會現在繼續開會 請王委員育敏質詢謝謝主席 我們是不是有請卓院長請卓院長備選王委員好 院長好 院長請問你就任到現在有沒有去過阿里山"},{"start":8278.496,"end":8291.795,"text":"有一次小火車搭到鐵路不能通的地方有去過嗎有去過那你有跟當地的居民聊過天嗎那天主要是看鐵道修復的狀況所以沒有扣嗎比較沒有 對"},{"start":8293.086,"end":8314.957,"text":"你在你的施政報告裡面有提到說你每天最重要的工作你都是把人放在第一優先對不對我有觀察到你這次的施政報告你試圖帶入比較有溫度的你就是把人到每一個場域你看到的人的感受都放進去基本上我非常肯定這一點因為執政其實就是要為人民服務"},{"start":8316.298,"end":8332.151,"text":"接下來我就要請教你這次的國土計劃法就是他明年4月要上路的這件事情其實很多的農民特別是在農業縣農民都非常的焦慮他們的焦慮感他們的心聲你有感受到嗎"},{"start":8333.817,"end":8350.831,"text":"我們有充分感受到所以我們是請農業部跟內政部積極跟大家來說明是不是有不了解的地方試圖能夠讓大家了解之後這個法是不是能夠順利的推動對我跟部長我跟院長報告到目前為止農民的焦慮沒有解除"},{"start":8351.471,"end":8363.036,"text":"我最近才上到阿里山山上跟山上的農民在晚上的時間大家坐下來聊天我認真的聽他們的心聲我現在也要把他們的心聲講給院長聽"},{"start":8365.23,"end":8381.115,"text":"他們非常的焦慮有的人他其實是已經很早就上山去開墾在那邊工作他很擔心這個法通過之後他熱愛的這個土地他以後沒有辦法在那邊工作有的人在那邊"},{"start":8382.075,"end":8397.968,"text":"主先留給他們的茶農土地但是兄弟分一分之後土地沒有多少了但是我現場很感動的是有一個青農他的兒子大學二年級他也來現場他反映他的心聲他假日他現在在幫他爸爸工作"},{"start":8398.268,"end":8398.448,"text":"國土計畫法"},{"start":8421.536,"end":8448.747,"text":"大筆一揮說我們這邊是大面積的崩塌但是他說他在那邊幾十年從來沒有崩塌過但是他被化為是這樣的地方然後一直廣告一直宣傳說他是大規模崩塌地人家都嚇得不敢來阿里山這樣一個地方是國際觀光著名的地標我們都希望爭取國際觀光客來可以上到阿里山阿里山的產業阿里山的高山茶我不曉得院長有沒有喝過應該有吧"},{"start":8449.948,"end":8466.185,"text":"非常好 國際馳名 國人也非常熱愛他現在還有阿里山的咖啡你有喝過嗎 有 有喝過嗎 量太少了對 量太少所以 農民他們的焦慮是他們想要在這片土地他們在山上有的很久了他們想要認真的繼續工作繼續經營繼續把"},{"start":8470.209,"end":8470.269,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":8493.706,"end":8509.981,"text":"但是這一點即使嘉義縣政府開過了說明會嘉義縣政府也已經把這個分區圖送給中央了但是當地你可以看到所有的農民山上的農民一片的焦慮感問題通通都沒有解決"},{"start":8511.162,"end":8530.872,"text":"在這樣的情況底下我們要怎麼上路請問一下部長這樣要怎麼上路報告委員我跟您補充一下第一個農一農二的劃法跟現在的區域計劃法完全一模一樣然後再加上一個阿里山如果現在是一個觀光風景區的話"},{"start":8531.992,"end":8558.207,"text":"嘉義縣政府跟我們討論過我們也許可以按照一個阿里山鄉鄉村地區整體規劃也就是把它變成是個鄉階計劃法的方式來推動剛剛你講的民宿也好或是有關阿里山的這些小商店家都把卡蘭農說在裡面變成是個很好的一個地標來發展而不是外界所說的你化成國土計劃法就不能用然後農地都完全不能繼承是完全相反的我想有些人呢"},{"start":8559.207,"end":8573.583,"text":"信息不太明確所以我們很願意再去阿里山鄉跟他們溝通我要跟你說的是農民當天就跟我反映他說縣政府這個答應他們就是說不會化成國一結果送上來你看這張圖"},{"start":8576.045,"end":8589.381,"text":"這張圖整個阿里山地區國藝就是深綠色這一片幾乎通通都是那天晚上鄉親他們那麼焦慮的座談就是政府嘴巴答應我的跟實質送出來的其實是不一樣的"},{"start":8590.362,"end":8606.878,"text":"多數地方都被劃為國一了他們知道的情況是這樣他們自己也會去打聽他說原來答應我這個土地不會是國一的也都變成國一了他說不會結果通通劃成國一而且在你們現在的辦法裡面你知道你們的土是怎麼劃出來的嗎你們是用套土"},{"start":8608.52,"end":8631.358,"text":"鄉親還告訴我的是說都沒有來實際的場勘沒有一個實際找專業人士來探勘就說我的土地說是國一就是國一而且他說縣府就是用資料套土嘛你們就是大筆一揮而且不到兩公頃的地方不是國一的也可以畫為國一為了畫起來的圖更好看更完整"},{"start":8632.279,"end":8655.395,"text":"我要告訴部長我要告訴院長的是說財產涉及到每一個人民他最在乎的事情但這些事情我們絕對不可以便宜行事也不可以非常粗糙粗暴的就直接套土的方式然後就判定他的土地是屬於什麼農民是可以被溝通的也是可以被說服的"},{"start":8656.235,"end":8680.108,"text":"那我很感動的是他們是熱愛那個地方想要好好經營他不是想要去徒利變賣土地什麼的國益這邊很多的農民他們的情況他們是想要好好留在原地耕作好好保護這塊土地他們也知道水保的重要但是他說可不可以給我們一條路在兼顧保育水保跟他們的產業發展之間"},{"start":8681.67,"end":8684.414,"text":"給他們一個路可以走可不可以"},{"start":8696.431,"end":8722.307,"text":"沒有到現場會刊也表示說功能分區圖送上來的時候我們還沒有完全審查完成審查作業的情況之下如果我們農民有這些意見我們會接到這個意見馬上要去進行就是說是不是真的是國土保育需要的如果你沒有隨便亂畫我們也不希望用這種比較粗糙的方式處理功能分區圖所以我剛有跟委員報告現在縣政府跟我們在處理有關的阿里山鄉的鄉村地區的整體作業"},{"start":8723.268,"end":8738.337,"text":"就是要回復剛剛所說的這些阿里山的居民們他們對這方面的疑慮那我們願意的很誠懇來回答這個問題因為我們相信在阿里山鄉的這些朋友們他們不是為了炒作農地也不是財團炒作都是祖先留下來的"},{"start":8738.977,"end":8766.552,"text":"而且他們更了解現場的狀況如果他願意把現場的狀況告訴我們讓我們來套疊現在我們所知道的地質上的變化如果沒有真正是屬於潛在危險區或是環境敏感區的話他不應該用這樣比較粗糙的方式全部一塊就把它劃進去那部長我就問你你這個補救措施是要怎麼個做法因為我到9月份去到現場的時候根本也沒有這樣的座談也沒有這樣的說明"},{"start":8767.392,"end":8782.96,"text":"他們就告訴我,就是縣府已經把功能分區土送上來,他們就是國宜,這是送上來的焦慮我跟委員報告,在董事群開始的第一天,到現在很多委員都關心過國土計畫法這個事情那第一天蔡議員也提過這個事情"},{"start":8785.521,"end":8808.595,"text":"所以我特別去了解現在嘉義縣政府在辦理一個剛剛部長說的阿里山鄉村地區整體規劃作業目前縣政府嘉義縣政府在按照各地的需求應該是有計劃在這裡做一個各地因地制宜的使用的管制規則況且功能圖送上來之後內政部還要做第二次的審查我覺得這個我們會更嚴謹的進行"},{"start":8811.118,"end":8837.264,"text":"對現在你們最大的問題是其實細膩度是完全不夠的因為急著明年的4月要上路包括其實這個部長你們自己該完成的執法你們現在還有8項只是完成預告都還沒有經過你們的法規會的審議預告就是表示已經經過我們法規會審議只有一項是屬於這個土地管制上面需要做罰則的部分我認為罰則的部分盡量往後延所以只有一項還沒有處理"},{"start":8837.984,"end":8865.523,"text":"所以你這個還沒有都完成你的程序啊公告需要長達60天以上的時間是啊所以你們現在這個執法都還沒有正式完成所有的公告之前就急著上路我要問一個問題是到目前為止22個縣市首長裡面有哪幾位首長是支持國土計劃法在明年4月如期上路我們現在送到內政部來的是一共有13個縣市政府是啊對"},{"start":8866.792,"end":8886.233,"text":"所以沒有送上來的送上來就代表他認同嗎?其實包括嘉義縣的翁章良縣長他真的認同嗎?他之前他在上半年的時候他曾經有發表一個談話他希望國土計畫法要延期上路他送上來是送上來了但是你真的認為送上來的縣市首長"},{"start":8886.874,"end":8914.517,"text":"他們希望這個國土計畫把明年如期上戶我想翁縣長他的本意是希望說我們有完整的配套措施那這個完整的配套措施現在就還沒有啊 除了內政部跟農業部都要能夠一起來進行那這一點我們會努力來改進所以我覺得這件事情真的可以再好好的去跟鄉親溝通院長我要告訴你的就是說這個人真的是很重要就是像嘉義縣這樣的地方"},{"start":8915.077,"end":8928.913,"text":"他多數其實就是被劃在國土保育區但是如果說因為這樣子他就沒有辦法生計產業無法發展我覺得這樣也是不對的我們應該可以在保育跟生計跟產業發展之間"},{"start":8930.194,"end":8930.214,"text":"委員："},{"start":8949.665,"end":8949.845,"text":"國家必須有"},{"start":8968.41,"end":8968.55,"text":"主席"},{"start":8991.139,"end":8991.739,"text":"我希望這個法要暫緩實施先溝通再上路"},{"start":9013.624,"end":9038.57,"text":"第2個是不是可以請部長你到第一線去聽聽鄉親真正的意見到目前為止我想你得到的都是間接式的傳達上來到目前為止你有到第一線去開過任何一場公聽會真的聽到農民第一線的心聲嗎我們大概是跟一些團體然後跟縣市政府一起開會在中部地區有開過有沒有跟農民面對面的農會有"},{"start":9042.552,"end":9056.247,"text":"我真的強烈建議部長你可以到第一線去你聽到的就會是最真實的聲音如果你願意到嘉義縣來的話本席也願意陪你一起來聽這些農民的聲音你看你的時間"},{"start":9057.288,"end":9057.448,"text":"是的 謝謝委員"},{"start":9074.275,"end":9100.546,"text":"那接下來呢我要再問一個是關於這個一樣是國土的問題但是是不一樣的情景我們現在在推動這個光電是如火如土但是一方面我們重視國土保育但是對於光電業者呢我們其實是毫不設防他們好像想怎麼蓋愛怎麼蓋通通都沒有問題甚至這個部長你是不是有Quota的壓力你連你的這個"},{"start":9102.046,"end":9119.543,"text":"你自己所掌管的國家公園你一開始都還要去大量鋪設這個光電板是不是報告委員這個完全錯誤第一個我們現在國家公園有管理中心就是在國家公園裡面但是他們在重建或是建造的過程當中他們用的是燃油發電機"},{"start":9120.424,"end":9142.733,"text":"那這些對於國家公園來講我們要求的是碳排所以我要求國家公園的管理中心自己本身的房舍或者是民宿的那些地方未來他們就是要用太陽能發電減少到處設立一些電線桿要從我們的台灣的平地上面輸送電到上面去只是這樣而已沒有其他的任何計畫"},{"start":9145.334,"end":9160.266,"text":"我們7、8個國家公園所產生的碳排量總共就3000多噸而已所以其實並不多我想外界做太擴大的解釋對於未來我們在國家公園的管理上反而是很大的困擾因為你們這樣子連環團都跳出來講話沒有沒有環團是支持我們的"},{"start":9164.949,"end":9182.156,"text":"好所以這個部分我希望這個要有把關的機制另外一個我要跟院長也是人民要跟院長請命這個在嘉愛縣有一個地方叫大埔大埔這個地方我想兩位可能還沒有機會上到這麼遠的地方曾文水庫有部分就是在大埔下"},{"start":9182.876,"end":9209.511,"text":"那大埔的居民現在也是一樣很困擾就是在他們熱愛這片土地上面的光電業者進來了然後不需要經過他們的同意然後這些光電板愛怎麼鋪設就怎麼鋪設愛怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋他蓋到連這個當地的議員議會都做成決議要求光電業者要停工可是有沒有效"},{"start":9210.353,"end":9230.052,"text":"沒有強制力沒有效他繼續施工繼續蓋然後呢這個議員帶著鄉親到現場去抗議到嘉義縣政府去抗議有沒有效沒有效縣長說那就是請光電業者跟這個居民就是多溝通那你知道他蓋到什麼樣的情況嗎這個圖讓這個"},{"start":9233.697,"end":9258.787,"text":"院長跟部長看一下這是人民的苦就是它的光電板布滿了這個學校跟老人活動中心的旁邊你看到的這個建築物這個建築物裡面就是有在供餐但是老人的食堂然後它旁邊通通都是光電板它不是在屋頂發電它是旁邊布滿了光電板"},{"start":9259.827,"end":9277.456,"text":"居民非常的無力然後抗議然後通通都沒有用那這一個業者呢我想可能他也是仿照這個臺南有個弊案小二甲弊案這個院長應該非常清楚當時他就是規避嘛他就是一塊一塊這樣子"},{"start":9278.536,"end":9291.625,"text":"那聽說這案也是就是他就是不同的以為是在自己家屋頂就是蓋光電板所以沒有問題不需要太多審查結果這個化整為領的模式一個一個進來就變成是這樣子一大片"},{"start":9292.639,"end":9318.027,"text":"那這個也沒有環境評估它的光害你可以看到嘛這麼大片它不是在屋頂喔它是在比較低的地方這陽光一照射產生的光害這也沒有辦法管然後現在極端氣候那個產生的熱鬧現在整個的熱氣上來也沒有辦法管請問這個怎麼辦人民怎麼辦人民要跟誰求助地方政府看起來沒有辦法"},{"start":9319.306,"end":9319.326,"text":"國務委員"},{"start":9342.383,"end":9360.573,"text":"跟各地的地方政府也要合作 針對一些不法那這件看起來他就算不是不法 也是不當的問題那怎麼辦呢這是嚴重的不當啊然後我覺得老百姓真的很苦欸求助縣府也沒有用欸縣議會都已經要求他停工了也約束不了 那我們中央"},{"start":9361.053,"end":9362.033,"text":"中央有哪一個部會可以受理人民的陳情"},{"start":9378.124,"end":9389.934,"text":"我現在是有一個平台這個平台雖然是犯罪的平台不是犯罪阿我說有一個受理犯罪的平台那另外就是說我們也希望地方政府能夠負起責任比如說我那天到台南我就發覺說"},{"start":9391.348,"end":9391.789,"text":"院長我就問你"},{"start":9413.616,"end":9438.185,"text":"像這樣子的一個情況我看到幾個問題第一個光天夜人他的設置他完全不需要居民的同意以我剛剛給你看的這張圖那個就是看起來很離譜但是他完全不需要當地居民的同意他只要有辦法取得用地他就可以蓋那這個怎麼辦雲林縣縣長我記得他也曾經反映過就是說現在的評估裡面都不需要有居民同意的這一項"},{"start":9439.105,"end":9465.402,"text":"那結果人民就束手無策啊因為不需要經過我們同意啊光電業者只要有辦法取得土地他愛怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋所以我覺得這個部分應該要讓居民有同意權了第二個民生聚落當中學校醫院老人長照中心這附近可以這樣子嗎就是如入無人之境然後鋪滿了光電板嗎這個部分完全沒有去設這個整個光電板面積的上限"},{"start":9465.942,"end":9493.468,"text":"這完全是不符合比例嘛我們當時鼓勵設置光電是在空曠的大範圍的而且不是在農業用地上面的大量鋪設這一種已經是社區式的民宅它還不是在每一個人住家上面的屋頂它不是屋頂啊它是在旁邊的空地上面鋪滿了這樣的一個光電板這樣子可以嗎第三個人民就是沒有求助的管道中央目前為止我看不到任何一個部會可以受理人民的陳情啊"},{"start":9494.268,"end":9513.926,"text":"經濟部不用講他是跟光電業者一起的他們要共同開發的那還有哪一個部會可以受理人民像這樣子求助無門欸院長我希望你回去之後你是不是可以去研議開會討論一下如果地方還有這種爭議人民求助無門的你應該要指定一個部會指定一個窗口來受理這樣的案件吧"},{"start":9514.286,"end":9514.626,"text":"這一個案子呢我希望這個"},{"start":9544.502,"end":9565.859,"text":"部長跟院長真的要好好正式處理剛剛上午我有聽到這個院長在回答委員質詢說其實一塊錢都不能浪費我也很同意但是一塊錢都不能浪費在內政部審理的計畫當中我就看到了這個疑似有圖利的情況這個要好好的嚴查嚴辦"},{"start":9567.932,"end":9575.651,"text":"我先請教這個部長你的內政部永續提升人行安全計畫你現在總共"},{"start":9577.489,"end":9602.696,"text":"就是送出來的計劃有幾案你知道嗎全國各縣市相當的多但是我們通過的沒有那麼多因為現在只有剩下下半年的時間而已對 送了262案你只通過175案高達27億然後你這個是全國競爭型的你這一個人行安全計劃你是要有急迫性的要優先補助"},{"start":9604.011,"end":9609.485,"text":"然後卓院長你要建立一個以人為本的交通環境我們就來看接下來這個案子"},{"start":9610.738,"end":9635.023,"text":"這個案子呢 這個表格上面這10件的案子當中 有一件喔它是道路改善工程計劃 你們核定了1500萬其他所有的案子都是通學步道 都是國中國小或是人行道的改善其中有一案呢 通過了1500萬 它是道路改善工程計劃"},{"start":9636.423,"end":9656.532,"text":"我讓兩位看一下這個圖他要改善什麼樣的道路呢這個是在嘉義縣水上鄉這個道路呢大家看到這個圖他有一間私人的殯儀館正在興建當中他要改善的這個道路呢旁邊都沒有住家也沒有學校"},{"start":9657.708,"end":9677.907,"text":"然後這個旁邊這個實照圖也沒有商圈更不是都市計畫區之內那這個地方我實地有去看了一下我最近常常在跑家有些我有去看你不要說行人車輛都很少然後就是有一間興建中的私人的殯儀館"},{"start":9679.773,"end":9708.486,"text":"那不知道他的急迫性在哪裡這個是這個是以人為本基本上要有一些行人吧對不對看起來這個是非常偏僻的一個地方然後重點是你們在審查會議的時候審查委員的意見這個兩位請一下現地人車流量低交通量低"},{"start":9710.117,"end":9735.209,"text":"表示說沒什麼人也沒什麼車他說建議考量人行通道的連續性因為看起來他沒有這個不是連續性的行人通道委員更說基於都市計劃區外周邊土地使用非居民的居住地"},{"start":9736.471,"end":9737.711,"text":"最後一個委員這個很關鍵本案似乎是以道路拓寬為主要目的"},{"start":9767.307,"end":9783.373,"text":"請教院長如果一個案子是以道路拓寬為主要目的當地不是都市計劃區內也不是學校也沒有人行然後有一個興建中的殯儀館這個案子為什麼可以通過"},{"start":9784.729,"end":9807.318,"text":"報告委員我想您提到的這個部分我們來審查我們來查一下因為計劃審查的過程當中通常我們會委託學者專家那他所提的這個案件送到我們內政部的國土署在審查的過程當中為什麼最後是核定1500萬您剛有提到黨土牆其實在人行道的安全上面黨土牆確實是有必要的"},{"start":9808.158,"end":9818.232,"text":"但是他如果是以道路拓寬為主要目的的話可能跟你剛所說的是競爭型的計畫完全是不太相關讓我們有時間來查一下再跟委員來報告好嗎"},{"start":9819.505,"end":9845.152,"text":"我希望院長可以回答一下 院長你這樣聽完沒有覺得你說一塊錢都不應該浪費吧那一塊錢都不應該去圖利私人的業者那這個案子你這樣子 如果你是審查委員的話聽到審查委員講的這麼多連計畫的名稱跟原來要改善這個人行安全通通都無關他計畫就大剌剌的寫著道路改善工程"},{"start":9846.172,"end":9873.948,"text":"那這樣的案子夾雜的上來在審查會議當中如果你作為會議主席你會讓這樣的案子過嗎是 謝謝委員 審查委員當然是秉於專業來看交通的設施他也提出很多意見當事者有一定有提出他的需求我想還是請內政部去了解一下審查的過程甚至地方政府為何提出這樣的一個需求他的真正的用意目的到底在哪裡我們要了解之後才讓這個"},{"start":9875.718,"end":9904.048,"text":"補助能夠有效或是做其他的考慮的執行但是一定要聽聽當事者的地方政府提出這個需求跟理由你不覺得這個當中有很大的弊端的存在嗎怎麼會這麼的奇怪呢其他的案子都很正常改善通學步道我想這個是也是落實你說以人為本嗎真的有人潮的我們才在做這件事嗎但是沒有的為什麼可以送上這樣的一個案子"},{"start":9904.768,"end":9915.996,"text":"而且還通過了那你要不要查院長我問你你要不要去徹查我會請內政部完全充分了解"},{"start":9917.213,"end":9945.404,"text":"要調查吧要調查要好好的調查吧我在一頁提供你一個資訊參考這一個殯儀館現在在興建當中過去它其實在地方上有一些爭議它是山坡地保育地變更為殯葬用地而且它很巧妙的規避了這一個一萬平方公尺需要還平的規定就9989平方公尺"},{"start":9946.465,"end":9974.579,"text":"那這當中當然還涉及了這個過去這個企業呢他其實曾經停業然後又變成另外一家公司然後過去在另外一家企業的時候有當時時任立委的子女還在裡面擔任董事這個在地方上面大家議論紛紛那我不知道這一件事情跟這一家殯儀館到底有沒有關係但是我們再回放我們去看剛剛給大家看的那個圖就是"},{"start":9976.941,"end":10001.34,"text":"這個實景圖就是長這樣子了就是這個可能你們要好好去調查到底這當中有沒有什麼相關聯因為真的是路上就是沒有住家跟商圈沒有行人跟車流那它就不是在都市計畫那它改善的路段為什麼這個是人行安全不懂沒有人在行走的為什麼是改善人行安全"},{"start":10002.02,"end":10019.136,"text":"那我們真的就只有看到一家的私人殯儀館還在興建當中那這當中不曉得有沒有任何的關係所以今天利用總質詢我想因為院長在我也希望把這樣的情況就是讓院長你可以了解"},{"start":10019.756,"end":10046.326,"text":"那你有說過一塊錢都不應該浪費嘛那我認為一塊錢也都不應該去圖利私人如果有圖利的行為這是絕對不允許的因為以剛剛講的這些計劃當中送來的那麼多案子262案只通過175案我不知道這當中還有多少人家是真正要改善人行道"},{"start":10047.026,"end":10075.584,"text":"行人安全的計畫被排除在外結果你們通過了一件是這種跟這個八竿子打不著的是道路拓寬計畫的案子夾雜在裡面而且經費還高達1500萬這件案子 院長你是不是承諾你真的會好好去調查你讓人民知道真相到底是什麼好不好會請內政部好好去瞭解這個事情瞭解之後馬上向委員說明好 我希望這個院長好好把事情來龍去脈調查清楚我們也不允許這樣的情況"},{"start":10076.994,"end":10083.708,"text":"好,謝謝王委員、謝謝卓院長下一位我們請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":10121.239,"end":10145.758,"text":"主席我請卓院長請卓院長備詢副委員好卓院長好辛苦了隔了三個多月我知道這三個多月你應該"},{"start":10146.877,"end":10174.946,"text":"也對我們行政院的願務應該是策略許多我在開場之前我一樣先送你一項禮物那麼對你做一些期許我要送你一個我們認識台灣我們台灣的拼圖我希望"},{"start":10175.851,"end":10201.683,"text":"你能夠以大愛大公無私的精神把我們全國全台灣22縣市拼在一起拼在一起我們應該團結和諧互助互愛在古書上面老子有一句話大方無語呀"},{"start":10204.366,"end":10231.436,"text":"真正大的形狀是沒有角落的也就是說我們看待我們自己國家我們不能讓我們國家有任何陰暗的角落最高的政治道德就是應該為我們2300萬人民不分藍綠白不分他的信仰"},{"start":10232.591,"end":10255.479,"text":"那我們要團結在一起這就是你身為最高行政首長你最首要的任務所以我送這個圖案的意義就是祈勉你要忍辱負重 任重道遠"},{"start":10267.13,"end":10267.471,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10293.675,"end":10320.767,"text":"我們這幾天看到的不管是電視、廣播、網路最大的一項我們政府的宣傳現在我們集中在打詐事法通過了我們要一致的打詐可是我看到的成績我實在是很不客氣的講"},{"start":10322.165,"end":10350.776,"text":"政府打詐越打越詐天啊我們前年111年2萬9千件的詐欺金額財產損失73億到去年啊院長去年高達3萬8千件已經增高到88億元今年更慘"},{"start":10352.574,"end":10373.632,"text":"今年尤其是我們宣告了好不容易7月份通過了打詐專法結果呢打詐專法通過以後這些詐騙集團集體的向我們政府公權力挑釁宣戰"},{"start":10375.919,"end":10401.408,"text":"今年7月打在中法通過以後今年7月光是詐騙金額高達110億不打緊8月更高又提升27億137億天啊光是喔光是今年7月一個月"},{"start":10402.588,"end":10416.068,"text":"就抵去年一整年當然也贏過前年一整年8月更是給我們政府重重一擊不打緊"},{"start":10418.849,"end":10434.325,"text":"委員我先說明一下我不敢否認說打砸的事件還是很多但是數字的差距是我們在計算呈現出來的標準是不一樣的"},{"start":10435.38,"end":10464.444,"text":"這個部分 呃 劉部長在先前的答詢也答詢過我請劉部長再說明一次委員跟你報告一下我們以前在算打詐的案 把他當成刑案譬如說現在在打詐呢 可能有一群人十幾二十個人的話是算一個案但是現在呢 我們在院長的指示之下呢不能夠用這樣的方式只要一案一個人就算一個案一案十個人就算十個案那金額怎麼講對 但是金額怎麼辦案數增加 我知道"},{"start":10464.924,"end":10491.379,"text":"我認為這就像火災一樣你們把認定的標準又放任官這個是好 這個是對另外在165報進來的時候就是報案人他的主觀上認定他損失多少金額我們就把它列進去這就是為什麼每天打詐儀表板都可以定時來公布這個打詐的案數跟打詐的財損數但是真正的部分要等我們變成全班刑案的時候來質詢我講到打詐儀表板齁"},{"start":10492.506,"end":10517.539,"text":"我講到165我講到這個我就想到速發布這個速發布我簡單五個字飯桶速發布我不曉得他在幹什麼打詐的事情完全繞到警政署的手上人家警政署至少有做點事你剛剛講的165那就是只有警政署警政署做的院長你知道嗎警政署啊"},{"start":10518.459,"end":10529.83,"text":"布置這165APP防詐的專網人家只花一千萬前幾天啊數位部搞了半天"},{"start":10531.263,"end":10556.71,"text":"千呼萬喚使出來他搞一個APP花6千萬不打緊喔他那個6千萬的APP大家可以去看你現在上網馬上看看他上面的評語是怎麼樣花6千萬結果下面臭罵連連滿意分數5分來講他只有2.8分然後現在速發部"},{"start":10558.106,"end":10569.485,"text":"做不了任何事情他每年就增加預算光這一點喔 院長那個部長你先等一下我先問一下院長對抒發部你要怎麼處理你覺得他們這樣做對嗎謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":10571.988,"end":10572.008,"text":"委員長"},{"start":10595.138,"end":10612.354,"text":"這個平台上網的時間 延後到年底希望再做改善我今天題外話講他啦 為什麼 因為他實在太飯多他明年的預算87億 比今年增加21%阿這也就算了 他那個APP你待會去看 他"},{"start":10614.113,"end":10624.841,"text":"五天前上線這五天來負評如潮他的負評大概哪一些呢人家說找不到通報功能"},{"start":10626.358,"end":10652.432,"text":"說介面差啦說使用中國的用語中共那邊的用語優化這個他都帶用中共那邊的用語再來呢通知後沒有結果這是最糟糕你看看人家警政署的165至少那個165的功能我那個院長你看一下我畫面上會放165的功能啦這麼多"},{"start":10654.575,"end":10673.872,"text":"這麼多花一千萬這個飯桶數位部花六倍的錢下面負評如潮所以 院長我希望說你今天就下令他齁乾脆撤掉算啦全民就當作說這些錢丟到水裡面普通一生"},{"start":10675.154,"end":10675.354,"text":"負責跟國外"},{"start":10702.956,"end":10713.43,"text":"這些網路平台FB Google Line 所有這些的聯繫是由速發部他老兄一點能力都沒有 什麼都沒幹"},{"start":10715.621,"end":10743.828,"text":"結果事實上我們很多可以用的比如說我們有跟臺日交流協會有做一個司法合作備忘錄他可以好好運用嗎他不我們跟美國也有臺美互助臺美司法互助已經20年的歷史他不懂那他可以好好來問警政署好好談一談所以我在想"},{"start":10745.936,"end":10751.537,"text":"時間到了 不用給他機會啦 直接 要不然就直接由內政部"},{"start":10752.352,"end":10778.443,"text":"由警政署直接藉由臺美司法互助藉由臺日我們之間的交流司法的合作那最有牽連的合作備忘錄啊我們趕緊跟他們來談說這樣這樣重大這些詐騙案如何讓LINE讓Google讓Facebook他們願意交通喔太多現在還設置的這些平台什麼Name這個"},{"start":10781.912,"end":10784.433,"text":"主席是不是停一下我喝個水好嗎"},{"start":10813.01,"end":10813.571,"text":"對很好有這句答覆我覺得這樣就"},{"start":10841.775,"end":10867.73,"text":"我覺得很夠好我們的警察我用三句話形容老苦功高出生入死薪水過低那個院長部長你知道嗎今年光是到8月份的到前天的統計我們已經有8位警察自殺身亡"},{"start":10868.817,"end":10889.149,"text":"那這5年來不連這8位時候我們有51件通報警察自殺但是有31位警察不幸身亡那我們查過這不幸身亡的警察裡面只有6位曾接受過"},{"start":10890.845,"end":10910.406,"text":"所做的心理諮商也就是說我們那個心理諮商的覆蓋率太低了我們在努力改善檢討當中那我覺得這跟待遇非常有關現在你知道嗎 院長部長我們數十天大夜班的員工齊心 新進人員齊心4萬億"},{"start":10913.274,"end":10941.65,"text":"我們做了五年的警察平均他們的薪水五萬二現在廣告說有啦警察招生廣告說薪水有六萬但是那個是含其他比如說首都都會加急吼還有含加班費等等那所以我總而言之一句話這個結果會導致什麼導致我們現在警察的人數嚴重不足"},{"start":10942.31,"end":10968.676,"text":"到去年底我們全國總共缺了五千位警察所以院長部長這一點我們要積極下去做好不好那我最後一個問題因為昨天凌晨在社子島又發生一個火災那個火災還不算大型的結果燒死一位民眾有五位嗆傷"},{"start":10970.616,"end":10988.732,"text":"那那個慘況如果院長部長你們稍微看了這個報導就曉得社子島已經夠慘了在那邊容留的租戶都還是透過社會局媒介過來社會最底層的三五千塊五六千塊這樣子的租金所以"},{"start":10989.372,"end":11006.72,"text":"院長部長我要說的就是說我們要趕快積極開發社職導在台北市政府尋求各方專家民眾的意見之後那麼這個案子就是低密度的生態社職導開發"},{"start":11009.861,"end":11039.086,"text":"院長我也獲得部長的首肯部長也為了這個案子也去主動拜訪了這個蔣萬元市長那我認為這是我們再朝再也合作一個很好的案子開發了社子島還給社子島民眾一個公道同時也會帶動周邊社子葫蘆島南港地區的發展所以這個事情是迫在眉睫應該立刻開發好不好是"},{"start":11044.79,"end":11061.164,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝王委員,謝謝卓院長下一位我們請高津素美委員質詢"},{"start":11074.005,"end":11082.326,"text":"謝謝蔣主席 有請卓院長還有曾主委請卓院長一行還有原民會主委"},{"start":11088.2,"end":11088.54,"text":"能夠在這裡講話就不是獨裁"},{"start":11115.472,"end":11133.621,"text":"您剛剛的回應是獨裁我們這裡是民主殿堂所有在這邊選出來的立法委員都是代表民意代表多數決就是民主好嗎我現在回到我30分鐘的質詢院長我們來看一下一段影片這是你的備詢你說的話"},{"start":11135.106,"end":11145.267,"text":"三萬元的淨化補償補貼如果能夠提升循序漸進的先編列為四萬行政院是可以接受的我們可以衡量所以我們這次是編了預算編了四萬"},{"start":11147.295,"end":11168.569,"text":"好 院長我看您的背景我深深覺得你對原住民的權益的漠視甚至我可以說你是帶著殖民思維我還記得上次就是6月7號總質詢我在這邊跟你的對話你總是提到禁法補償是政府對原住民的照顧"},{"start":11169.629,"end":11189.814,"text":"所以你會編列4萬塊是可以的編列6萬塊算太多你這樣子的說法我並不意外院長我在這邊提醒您你應該非常的清楚因為你是法律系畢業的照顧這兩個字是政府的援助補償"},{"start":11192.165,"end":11209.371,"text":"是對於政府合法行為造成人民權利的損害所作為的補償措施這兩個的性質是完全不一樣的所以院長您知道嗎進法補償是針對什麼樣的損害做補償的呢我們在行政院"},{"start":11216.306,"end":11221.813,"text":"行動101策略當中我們說現在行政院兩項大的政策就是照顧跟發展"},{"start":11223.607,"end":11227.508,"text":"原住民保留地禁法補償是補償原住民在憲法上我們的生存權還有財產權的損害"},{"start":11252.034,"end":11276.712,"text":"因為我們的政府禁止原住民使用我們的民族已經開墾在這塊土地上開墾千年以上的土地而我們現在的政府對我們的族人沒有辦法再度的農耕維生而我們的補償額度僅僅只能夠維持最基本的生計"},{"start":11277.893,"end":11296.713,"text":"我們的政府用法律用最強力的手段剝奪了我們原住民的生存權我們不卑不亢我們僅僅要求最低限度的補償這會太過分嗎 院長您休息一下我接著要問一下曾主委曾主委"},{"start":11301.608,"end":11328.279,"text":"我請問一下 行政院或者民進黨一直不斷的對外放話說禁法補償這個法律是違憲的你是不是認同禁法補償是因為限制了原住民使用自己的土地這是一種補償對啊 我問你啦民進黨團還有一些人對外放話原住民禁法補償是違憲你是不是認同這句話"},{"start":11331.67,"end":11344.434,"text":"在這裡我要警告行政院還有民進黨團尤其是柯建民委員如果你們堅持違憲的話請問一下蔡英文執政8年的期間進法補償是違憲嗎"},{"start":11347.31,"end":11364.868,"text":"還是說你們覺得這一次的修法才是違憲如果你們堅持這一次的修法是違憲法那就更可笑了 院長你說4萬塊是合憲 6萬塊是違憲我還是想請問一下 6萬塊真的很多嗎"},{"start":11365.814,"end":11366.594,"text":"政府為了照顧老年的農民生活"},{"start":11394.659,"end":11415.781,"text":"沒有任何的條件之下我們的農民每個月就可以領取8,110塊每年是97,320塊而我們原住民被限制了我們用來謀生的土地即便我們的這次修法之後平均每個月我們才可以領到5000塊"},{"start":11418.343,"end":11442.236,"text":"我們來看一下113年全國最低的生活費每個月是多少一萬四千兩百三十我們原住民僅僅要求這個金額的三分之一居然還被院長您嫌多我不理解我的主任更不理解院長您可以休息一下我要請教主委"},{"start":11444.851,"end":11451.463,"text":"主委主計長9月25號來到我辦公室跟我說明是主委你沒有積極爭取這導致競爬補償沒有編足"},{"start":11454.394,"end":11456.435,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個就是說每一個特別是我們原住民的立委我每一個立委都有去說明過"},{"start":11485.1,"end":11486.461,"text":"國慶日是10月1號吧?"},{"start":11503.951,"end":11528.849,"text":"你是幾號去的?你26號你就去了你躲避了禮拜五在這邊的總質詢而我幫你查過了禮拜六是可以有非帛琉的班機26號到1號還有那麼多的時間更何況更何況你的前面的副主委也跟你一起去"},{"start":11529.91,"end":11550.291,"text":"主委你不要在這邊在這邊再拿這個來做唐山我現在先請教主委我先請教主委人民會單位的預算是不是僅僅編列4萬塊的額度而剩餘的2萬塊額度你是不是準備要從原住民綜合發展基金中來編列"},{"start":11556.419,"end":11579.977,"text":"我沒有問你這個我是說你是不是這個不足的兩萬塊你要從原住民的綜合發展基金裡面來挪用 是嗎是不是好 既然這樣我就問你最基本的問題你知道原住民綜合發展基金的法源依據是什麼嗎"},{"start":11583.814,"end":11610.361,"text":"法源依據是什麼 沒關係你不要浪費我的時間我給你答案 你照念一遍就好預算法第4條第一項第二款第4目凡經過付出仍可收回的不是用於營業者為作業基金對不對那基金可以作為什麼用途"},{"start":11612.093,"end":11639.81,"text":"可以作為什麼用途沒關係你不知道也給你答案來看一下他可以做什麼用途你唸一下原住民族基本法第18條辦理原住民經濟發展業務、輔導事業機構、住宅還有興辦、租售、建構以及修繕業務這是我們基金可以做的有哪一個有講到禁法補償"},{"start":11641.326,"end":11654.42,"text":"主委啊你連基金的法源依據還有用途能夠作為什麼你都不知道你是怎麼樣幫族人來把關這個預算啊我跟你們報告你不要再回答了你連這兩個法律你都不知道謝謝指教院長"},{"start":11660.266,"end":11677.839,"text":"6月份我在這裡對您的總質詢 您說 修法過程當中就應該要合理的討論而民進黨也提到 《經法補償條例》是在野黨多數暴力的產物現在我來為您理清一下整個修法的脈絡"},{"start":11679.526,"end":11707.344,"text":"這一屆第1會期我擔任了內政的召委就在4月17號內政跟經濟來審查進法補償條例的聯席會議當中你們的行政機關是這麼說的來我們看一下法務部的報告有關援助民主權益保障這事涉主管機關與大院的職權跟決定本部競表尊重"},{"start":11709.005,"end":11724.015,"text":"農業部的報告說什麼呢 研議提高淨法補償金還有擴大淨法的區域範圍對於維護森林還有自然保育的資源是有正面效益的"},{"start":11725.017,"end":11746.362,"text":"而你們的主計總署在備詢的時候更回答委員的質詢說如果修法通過的話其本身就是屬於依法律所必須編列的支出在編預算的時候他會依照法所通過的規定來編列相關的經費"},{"start":11750.686,"end":11770.665,"text":"行政機關表達支持：不分黨派的立法委員也都提案：蘇巧慧委員她甚至還提出什麼你知道嗎提出禁法補償金調到7萬塊她也樂觀其成這些在所有的會議記錄是都可以查詢的喔"},{"start":11771.719,"end":11784.654,"text":"審查結論甚至還從善如流的按照民進黨立法委員吳立華委員他提出的額度來通過這難道是多數暴力嗎"},{"start":11785.882,"end":11809.229,"text":"5月2號政黨協商裡面大家對於禁法補償增加到6萬塊也都表達贊同而這些民進黨的立法委員的連署還有委員當時的發言都是贊成修法的這難道也是在野黨多數的暴力嗎好啦即便在6月24號總統公佈了"},{"start":11812.619,"end":11814.1,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛這一段的陳述證明這不是黨派問題"},{"start":11834.376,"end":11858.502,"text":"朝野立委不是黨派問題不是顏色問題是守不守法的問題是是非對錯的問題不是立法行政兩院院計分立的問題行政院制定編列預算立法院審議預算制定編列的權限是在行政院立法委員的權限也可以提案好啦好啦院長院長院長我提醒你齁我提醒你我提醒你"},{"start":11863.283,"end":11867.967,"text":"委員你經常把最重要的那一段漏掉沒有錯所以委員都漏掉最重要的那一段造成人們的誤解我沒有誤解啊 是你說的啊"},{"start":11883.499,"end":11904.789,"text":"立法跟行政院要互相尊重我們的分際﹖如果有任何意見的話﹖如果有意見不同的話﹖立法院是多數決﹖只要是經過民主議程表決通過的﹖就是法律﹖委員你一年如果提12萬會要接受嗎?你一年如果你提12萬行政院要接受嗎?"},{"start":11910.331,"end":11912.394,"text":"提不提復議案是你行政院決定的也是你的法定職權"},{"start":11933.65,"end":11944.135,"text":"我再說一次在整個立法當中行政機關的正面看法還有民進黨委員在審查的時候的支持我們都可以看到它的必要性跟合理性"},{"start":11945.436,"end":11966.174,"text":"目前唯一阻擋的就是說話不算話的賴皮政府 三讀通過總統的法律 院長 你知道嗎 你是第一個公然違抗總統的行政院我剛剛都已經說了 合法的過程是非常合法的 也沒有所謂的多數暴力 我現在請教一下委員會"},{"start":11967.555,"end":11971.616,"text":"原住民禁法補償條例修正通過的時候 原民會你們是不是有向行政院提報52億元的需求經費 要編列在原民會的單位預算內 有沒有"},{"start":11987.25,"end":12011.607,"text":"我們希望是這樣子好謝謝也就是說從一開始你們原委會就知道經費應該要編列在原民會單位預算內而不是在基金之內所以呢所需要的額度是52億元原民會你要52億行政院只給你28億短缺了24億按照9月25號主計長到我辦公室他說的"},{"start":12012.327,"end":12040.21,"text":"你人民會應該要捍衛法律然後立即發函給行政院然後向行政院長爭取編列足額的經費請問一下主委人民會現在有再一次向行政院爭取嗎有還是沒有我們一直都跟主計總書這裡有沒有再發函給我們行政院長你還要爭取不足的部分 有沒有好 謝謝我現在要再問你"},{"start":12043.052,"end":12072.621,"text":"如果你要從原住民族綜合發展基金撥付的話我就現在就從基金的基本使用再問你你知道原住民綜合發展基金的法源依據嗎剛剛已經問過你了你現在再回答對我知道知道是什麼就是目前的原住民的這個綜合基金的狀況我了解不是狀況我說法源依據剛剛已經問過你了來來助理再給他一次答案有就是作業基金凡經付出仍可回收"},{"start":12073.513,"end":12079.52,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金有哪一些業務是屬於付出然後可以收回的"},{"start":12087.435,"end":12088.315,"text":"原住民的貸款"},{"start":12109.48,"end":12112.602,"text":"發給族人之後有不足的地方就是不足的地方"},{"start":12125.609,"end":12154.533,"text":"我們會請求這個6萬塊發給族人族人拿了這個6萬塊還要還給你的基金嗎不是嘛對不對他就拿走放在口袋了嘛請問一下這有符合基金要可付出仍可收回的性質嗎既然我們金髮補章出去了他是不可以償還的啊這是代表什麼代表你的圓明會的綜合發展基金是不可以這麼用的"},{"start":12154.813,"end":12154.833,"text":"第1"},{"start":12176.536,"end":12195.142,"text":"你跟行政院要52億行政院給你28億還少了24億主委你說基金仍然有17億可以調動17-24是多少7億來答案給你不足的部分不足的部分請問你要怎麼補"},{"start":12196.394,"end":12211.854,"text":"我跟委員報告好我們要精算你也說不了什麼你看一下這是你原民會今年給我的基金預算書明年114年度你的基金只剩下10億可以用你知道嗎第二個我再問你"},{"start":12214.245,"end":12231.822,"text":"這17億淨費裡面你說要從綜合發展基金出去嗎而且你說你要編17億是不是包含明年微小貸款的額度所以當微小貸款的經費全部都放在淨法補償上難道明年度的微小貸款你就不辦了嗎這個你必須跟主任說清楚喔這不會影響這個"},{"start":12235.689,"end":12262.784,"text":"進化補償我跟委員講最快也是明年的這個時候才發放我現在跟你講的是114年度的綜合發展基金你在講什麼啊主委你到底有沒有進入狀況啊從整個的基金來調度啊第三個再問你更簡單的問題如果你真的要違法用基金撥付進化補償的費用按照你說基金有17億可以用但是你的預算書非常的清楚說"},{"start":12263.704,"end":12290.624,"text":"明年也就是114年的你們的綜合發展基金短處多少你知道嗎?67億多你就知道啊短處已經快破產啦你知道嗎主委我真的覺得你滿離譜的尤其是在今年第一屆新竹縣原住民運動會上面你跟著廣大大眾說什麼我們原住民是人也是鬼"},{"start":12291.601,"end":12294.845,"text":"請問一下你現在是人還是鬼現在是人還是鬼你現在是人還是鬼"},{"start":12306.428,"end":12332.057,"text":"我更記得上個會期你在業務報告裡面跟我說你說爭取園民會的預算是足為很重要的業務可是我發現你向行政院爭取經費你不敢基金是什麼你也搞不清楚可是他給你足夠了嗎還不夠啊然後基金是什麼你也搞不清楚"},{"start":12332.797,"end":12356.499,"text":"基金現在要面臨破產了你也不知道主委你是要做怎麼樣一個盡責的主委啊你說禁法補償明年會如其發你相信你自己說的話嗎我告訴你我是不相信啦除了你睜眼說瞎話之外我們來看一下審查禁法補償條例的時候法務部說什麼會尊重立法院的權責"},{"start":12358.021,"end":12375.379,"text":"農業部說什麼對國土保育有正面的效益主計整處更說什麼他說會依法編列不到兩個月喔你們現在告訴我們說編列預算有困難這個是讓我們的族人怎麼相信你們民進黨的鬼話"},{"start":12376.755,"end":12403.688,"text":"立法程序我們有充分的溝通院長說他只能先給4萬塊甚至只願意給4萬塊然後我剛剛裡面告訴你舉了這麼多的例子我們的基金也確實是沒有辦法挪用到撥付進法補償不管是他的破產不管是他的法律可是行政院你們真的還是要硬幹啊"},{"start":12404.568,"end":12405.289,"text":"這個論點唯一成立的前提是"},{"start":12425.302,"end":12437.129,"text":"原民會的預算是給足的按照原住民的人口來計算我們原住民的人口數在現在全國的人總數是2.59%應該要有811億的預算而我們現在只分配到多少0.39%也就是122億"},{"start":12445.774,"end":12473.115,"text":"即使再加上民進黨你們不斷的對外講說其他部會用在原住民的身上我也幫你整合了也只有178億這兩個加起來300億連828.8億的一半都不到然後我再告訴你一個事情原住民族地區的行政單位的成績他只有鄉鎮市區的成績"},{"start":12474.366,"end":12498.866,"text":"他們根本也沒有辦法分配所謂的專屬的統籌分配稅款原住民地區的鄉鎮市區我們僅僅只能夠依靠原民會的補助款在生存啊院長你給原住民原民會穿小鞋也就罷了我認為這雙鞋還是嬰兒鞋你對外還有說什麼立法院不能夠增加預算的方式來通過法案"},{"start":12499.605,"end":12523.827,"text":"但是你看一下你們的柯總召在96年他曾經提出老年農民福利津貼暫時條例的修正案要求老農津貼從每個月五千塊要調高到六千塊然後又在100年的時候再次引民進黨團提修正案從每個月的六千塊調到七千塊我們可以看到他每一次的修正"},{"start":12524.588,"end":12539.269,"text":"施出將近90億請問民進黨可以高精素沒在這邊提案而且是按照民主程序三讀總統公佈的法律你"},{"start":12541.006,"end":12567.085,"text":"這不是標準的綠能我不能嗎好還沒還沒我會有時間跟你說我再舉一個例子進法補償條例同一天有三讀通過叫做地方民意代表費用支給以及村里長事務補助費的補助條例來看這也是行政院裡面提出版本喔"},{"start":12567.705,"end":12579.128,"text":"在立法院修正通過內政部現在已經補足了5億8千多萬的相關預算現在不僅僅是綠能我不能更是擺明的欺負原住民然後你又再講"},{"start":12580.629,"end":12604.843,"text":"任何增加新的預計算要有新的財源我們來看一下105年禁法補償通過的時候的附帶決議說什麼如果需要提高禁法補償的金額必須要由開增碳稅來支應112年通過氣候變遷因應法我們的環境部按照這個法的第32條設立了溫室氣體管理基金"},{"start":12610.844,"end":12625.229,"text":"原住民有為政府守護7萬公頃的碳會的原住民經法補償的私有林地同時原民會也有11萬公頃的公有林地"},{"start":12626.515,"end":12641.689,"text":"溫室氣體管理基金這不就是財源嗎院長你知道最大的問題是什麼嗎是你根本視而不見甚至114年度的稅入稅出的剩餘是209億元你依舊視而不見"},{"start":12647.772,"end":12667.427,"text":"114年也就是明年度的預算總共多少3兆以上這樣子的行政團隊要告訴我的族人說24億我找不到財源真的實在是天大的笑話我講白了你不是讓原住民穿嬰兒鞋您是要讓原住民赤腳走路"},{"start":12668.117,"end":12682.305,"text":"我覺得這是赤裸裸的殖民思想賴政府是我從政23年來我看到最踐踏立法院最欺負原住民的獨裁政府"},{"start":12683.22,"end":12707.488,"text":"委員所說的完全不是事實我知道委員會把這一段質詢放在影片跟你的主持人說但是你當中有很多斷章取義錯誤的立法院是公開透明的現在已經非常多人在看即時的轉播了那我要報告委員我們的長照我們的健保我們的勞健保難道沒有用在原住民身上嗎有啊有啊所以你剛剛的數字是覺得不對是啊"},{"start":12708.288,"end":12714.734,"text":"所以我現在要告訴我現在要告訴你我現在我沒有錯誤我沒有錯誤我告訴你們更離譜的是講什麼其他部會放在原住民的身上有178億原住民是話外知名嗎"},{"start":12727.025,"end":12753.405,"text":"你們撲在原住民的道路上其他人難道不走嗎不要在這邊荒謬的亂講話了啦院長請你保持你的高度請你保持你的高度我現在對非常好非常好所以要一一全部要一視同仁所以不要把原住民當作話外之民所以立法院三讀通過"},{"start":12755.666,"end":12777.496,"text":"總統公告的法院請你守法有這麼困難嗎最後最後最後最後我要用德國牧師尼莫勒的一首詩作為我今天總質詢的結束當納稅逮捕共產黨人的時候我保持沉默我又不是共產黨人"},{"start":12779.798,"end":12803.695,"text":"當他們關押社民黨人的時候我保持沉默我又不是社民黨人當他們逮捕工會人員的時候我保持沉默我又不是工會的人員當他們逮捕我的時候已經沒有人能為我說話了我含著眼淚哽咽地在這邊告訴你"},{"start":12805.987,"end":12834.697,"text":"我非常感謝民眾黨團、國民黨團能夠頂住你們的胡說八道能夠頂住所謂側翼的攻擊還在這裡捍衛立法委員的尊嚴捍衛台灣的民主法治所以我要講的是現在民進黨在這裡膽敢欺負台灣的主人您剛剛說的原住民族"},{"start":12835.717,"end":12836.458,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12851.92,"end":12852.32,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":12878.573,"end":12887.566,"text":"上午質詢到此為止本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案就不進行臨時提案之處理下午2點30分繼續開會進行內政組之質詢現在休息"},{"start":21598.393,"end":21599.693,"text":"主席有請海洋委員會主委海洋委員會主委請備詢"},{"start":21635.975,"end":21636.217,"text":"關主委好"},{"start":21637.729,"end":21665.464,"text":"昨天下午蘭嶼相公所有舉辦一個直播也就是關於我們巴貝多吉有一個說明會對 擱淺的事情那我後來就詢問我們環保也就是衛環的環境部的官員他說這不是他們管轄的事情說是屬於海洋委員會他說沒有成立危機應變小組所以他們不便介入我想說你這件事情的後續你的作為是什麼"},{"start":21666.204,"end":21669.286,"text":"因為他們非常擔心漏油的事件希望這個污染防治能夠比較影響他們明年飛魚季的一個捕獲"},{"start":21692.099,"end":21694.202,"text":"你知道當初的船員是誰來救他們 或者是誰給他們提供物資或者是食材嗎?"},{"start":21710.721,"end":21737.87,"text":"這次是空勤總隊的飛機載著我們海巡的吊掛小隊然後把19個人吊掛救回來救回來以後因為這艘船它擱淺那擱淺以後就斷掉了那好在就是說它斷的這個地方不是遊艙的地方沒有關係那我的意思就是說後續的污染的事情盡量能夠預防因為蘭嶼是我們最珍貴的一個旅遊的地點"},{"start":21738.73,"end":21750.575,"text":"我們非常非常的憂心那也非常非常的努力都做到生日半夜好謝謝那有請行政院長麻煩請行政院主委院長備詢院長好主委員好曾主委你知道明天有23位主任要到辦公室找我嗎我知道是關於"},{"start":21768.684,"end":21793.769,"text":"關於什麼事情?應該是康納康納夫族的族群委員的事情當然不是只有康納康納夫的成員有表達強烈的不滿那希望你心裡面能夠接受因為他們提出的這些心裡面的人選是他們開過會他們認為這些人是最適合擔任族群委員的人選可是原民會完全漠視他們的提案"},{"start":21795.106,"end":21803.096,"text":"各位報告不是說漠視他們的提案因為整個的這個族人這麼多的優秀的人才"},{"start":21806.979,"end":21826.147,"text":"因為我知道民進黨是執政黨所以我很客氣的提了兩個推薦可是你們也沒有提出你們的想法也沒有提出你們拒絕的理由也沒有把優劣或者說你們禁用的人是因為是什麼樣的原因而禁用也沒有給本席一個答案"},{"start":21827.162,"end":21852.107,"text":"我會跟委員報告提出來的這個人選我們沒有什麼黨派的這個考慮希望他能夠為族人多做一點事情這兩個族群找我提供的名單都是他們內部的族群裡面去開過會認為這個人最適合我們才會提報上去我們不可能隨便找一個路人甲來提報啊所以我的意思是說你當時用了A你應該告訴我這A是"},{"start":21852.907,"end":21858.132,"text":"行政院長我這邊要提醒的就是我們原住民主健康法在112年5月26號三讀通過也在6月21號公佈他要有一個專責單位"},{"start":21878.683,"end":21897.028,"text":"管理我們原住民主健康那我是一直希望他能夠在施及或處及的一個等級而不是在現行的在一個科裡面希望你把這件事情放在心裡面因為今天不是質詢我們衛福部可是原住民主健康的問題應該跟原民會有關係所以我這邊提出來"},{"start":21897.808,"end":21898.689,"text":"委員長施政報告"},{"start":21916.605,"end":21936.544,"text":"當然我今天的主題還是在進法補償但因為很多委員都提過不過我還是要再提我的論述我們台灣的地形的關係那目前我先考一個問題好了主委你知道我們森林覆蓋是多少幾萬公頃嗎森林覆蓋台灣的森林覆蓋的範圍"},{"start":21940.236,"end":21961.732,"text":"大概是210萬公頃,將近六成,也就是我們台灣大概都是在這樣的範圍,原名會有11萬,我們原住民的是大概7.2萬左右,如果今年會增加到7.7,也就是18萬,在所有森林裡面210萬裡面的18萬公頃也沒有很多,"},{"start":21965.555,"end":21986.834,"text":"對"},{"start":21987.455,"end":22012.241,"text":"因為當初舊好茶要辦到新好茶的時候很多老人家說不能辦到新好茶因為那是以前是湖泊那是因為我們幾千年生活在這個土地的一個智慧結果沒有多久它不是整個都滅村了嗎現在已經遷到你那裡舊好茶的命運就是因為我們後來的政府沒有去採納我們原住民的智慧啊不是嗎"},{"start":22014.175,"end":22042.425,"text":"才會一而再再而三的遷徙一直到現在的李娜理好那我們一再而三的講進法補償就是他是補償不是補助他的原則是這樣不是嗎是好那我們從2015年說兩萬塊一公頃好我來調高到三萬塊那我知道主委院長一直一直在說你願意接受四萬塊那請問你的四萬塊的論調是什麼你的基礎是什麼"},{"start":22043.483,"end":22069.58,"text":"謝謝委員任何的補償補助跟福利的措施都一樣都應該朝合理的方向去進展但是應該考量到國家的財政能夠循序漸進我們很難期待一步到位我知道再多的補償對原住民的這種精神或是領域或是文化或是生活上都無法達成百分之百但我們希望能夠盡最大之力我想知道你認為4萬塊的理由是什麼"},{"start":22072.04,"end":22099.331,"text":"我認為循序漸進﹚可以達到﹚慢慢的﹚達到那樣的一個境界跟地步當初我們在﹚還在委員會的時候﹚在討論的時候﹚我有提出一個論述﹚我等一下﹚待會會說那我們先從探會開始講好了探會我們昨天有公布也就是10月7號我們環境部有公布我們探會是一公頓300塊可是我在看文獻的時候有一個文獻叫做World Bank也就是世界銀行的"},{"start":22099.946,"end":22126.793,"text":"他在5月29號就已經公告我們的碳匯的錢是9塊美金也就是說他比我們提早好幾個月知道說我們的匯率是多少那我們還要等環境部來公佈嗎他9塊錢就算了但我們當然是可以接受從低到高可是我們比大陸還低北京是15塊然後最高的是我們要跟最高的比的話是烏拉圭是167塊"},{"start":22128.123,"end":22153.892,"text":"你烏拉圭是高度開發國家嗎?不是所以我的意思是說你們在﹖無論在計算這個費用﹖或者是說做這個評比的時候你們都沒有原住民的一個委員在裡面我知道3月13號有公佈21名的審議委員﹖碳費的審議委員﹖裡面沒有一個專家﹖學者﹖或者是人民團體是原住民代表"},{"start":22154.468,"end":22183.155,"text":"那燙費這麼一個重要的事情我希望明年度的一個委員裡面能夠採納一個原住民的專家學者可以嗎 院長我會跟環境部本部長來研究如果讓現在如果有疏忽的意見能夠趕緊納進去那麼未來在組織在人員在調整的過程當中我們能夠多多聽聽各位各方的聲音從剛剛那個圖表是說世界上各國的一個燙費的"},{"start":22186.414,"end":22209.204,"text":"規範從幾塊錢到一百多塊多也就是參加幾十倍也就是說這個市場還是一個新興的市場那我們從一個圖表來看2015年到2019年才短短的四年時間已經翻了好幾倍它的平均值也就是說如果我們就講進法補償為什麼會doubling或者說為什麼會有這樣子一個趨勢"},{"start":22210.063,"end":22239.604,"text":"是以前低估了現在我們是不過是讓他能夠恢復到正常的一個所謂的補償那為什麼呢從以下幾個論述來看第一個他還是在生計的時候尋求生計的時候森林作為一個生活場域的時候他可以占了一般就是落後國家比如說新巴威啦或者是一些他上面所表列的國家他森林可以負擔他40%以上的生活條件"},{"start":22240.282,"end":22268.137,"text":"好 第二個也就是說如果它是商機的時候如果一個企業家他認為這個森林它覆蓋了很多也許它裡面有很多珍貴的藥材或者說它可以從裡面竊取很多生物的物質或者是說去做一些研發它的價值可以從好 可以從裡面沒有關係可是它可以到9177塊每公頃的美金也就是說這是它的商機的部分那如果說就間接的一個間接的所謂的"},{"start":22270.238,"end":22295.235,"text":"價值的話如果他是一個水域的保護或者說水質的一個品質保證的話他大概可以落在800多塊或者200多塊這樣的一個區塊這是一公頃美金的一個價格這是水域或者是供水的一個value那如果就CO2二氧化碳的一個碳的存底來看的話下一頁"},{"start":22297.145,"end":22325.404,"text":"他大概就落在一公頃是兩千美金這是2001年的一個研究也就是說我們長期低估了碳底存在這個森林的這個市場這樣的一個價值所以我們一直都沒有認為說這個森林的保護是多麼重要可是現在這是一個世界的一個所謂的趨勢大家要去知道說原來這個它的價值是在這裡因為它是有維護我們"},{"start":22327.033,"end":22353.603,"text":"這個生態阿或者是說避免暖化這些一個他的優厚的力量所以他的價格是這樣阿如果說他是原始領2830阿如果是變成後來變成轉農作的話會變成790然後permanent如果變成農業的話變成630阿如果是牧場會變成630630對那意思說如果他是沒有沒有耕作的話他大概都在2000塊左右的一個價值"},{"start":22355.595,"end":22384.666,"text":"那我是上次我們在委員會討論的時候是提了這個論述最後一個就是在他圖表就是他所謂的option value就是說有些國家是進步到說他已經有些力能的概念或者說他有環保的意識他認為他可以付5美金來維持巴西的森林他用這樣的概念去算的話其實這個所謂的間接的價值也存在"},{"start":22385.225,"end":22412.108,"text":"所以他這個價值呢有可以到5塊錢可以到12塊美金所以他的total在最後一頁你看他有所謂的當然不要講伐木當然有他的價值可是伐木的價值如果一存在的話那個所謂的climate的benefit就沒有了所以也就是說你這邊是1000然後這樣加加種種加上他的一些休氣啊加上一些他的生物多樣性啊或者是說"},{"start":22413.247,"end":22439.735,"text":"我們剛所說的間接價值的話遠遠超過這兩千塊美金所以我的意思就是說其實當初我們在講這個森林的這個價值的時候是一個多元的一個概念他是個生態的概念那我們已經走到這個地步我們不可能再走回頭路再去找那個所謂的按照這個國家的那個合理的推算然後應該是到達四萬塊因為我希望"},{"start":22440.953,"end":22463.206,"text":"院長你有個概念就是說我們是希望能夠補足以前沒有補足到的而且你知道進化補償是105年才開始那105年以前呢我們一直都是這個森林的主人是這個土地的主人我們沒有說我們要求那麼多我們是從現在開始先補足而且我們這次的修法的重點是每兩年調整一次不是你講的明天就調到12萬"},{"start":22464.81,"end":22491.862,"text":"而且是按照物價指數在做調整也就是說這次一次到位以後這兩年以後再說如果經濟水準沒有到那個地方也不可能再調漲我們的如果你有仔細看我們的法律是那樣子來修正的所以你可以尊重我們的想法或者說已經通過的法律保護森林喔剩下一分鐘我要講一個重點最重要我認為今天最重要的我先考下主委"},{"start":22493.075,"end":22497.597,"text":"盧凱族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧凱族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧凱族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?"},{"start":22523.257,"end":22548.417,"text":"所以我們的世界觀裏面我們的想法裏面沒有去求別人希望你能夠再三的而三的去想一下你自己的思維可以嗎是謝謝謝謝委員謝謝盧縣議委員的質詢也謝謝左院長香港部會首長的備詢本會接下來登記第11號邱毅英委員第12號吳佩奕委員"},{"start":22552.092,"end":22563.495,"text":"兩位委員質詢均以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報接下來我們請登記第13位王美惠委員質詢"},{"start":22580.68,"end":22586.123,"text":"主席,我們這裡的院長請補充麻煩卓院長請備詢我們內政部長麻煩內政部,劉部長請備詢跟陸委員王委員好院長你好,補充好"},{"start":22602.278,"end":22623.353,"text":"本社在今天這頓當中先提點來跟您討論一個10月7日﹐有香港人在我們西門町﹐來舉辦活動﹐在這個活動的時候﹐有款對中國的國旗﹐因為不知道怎樣﹐還要雄勇一隊紅阿牧﹐來揶揄﹐跟這隊紅阿牧﹐"},{"start":22630.984,"end":22632.925,"text":"指導當天都有看到報告"},{"start":22644.841,"end":22672.279,"text":"警政單位也做了必要的處分我們知道說他在西門町鬧事之後我們的移民署跟臺北市警局馬上就做處理也在當天的時候到君悅飯店裡面把相關的書面文件提供給他請他要離開因為我們發現說他到臺灣來的目的跟他原來所申請的項目不符合"},{"start":22672.799,"end":22692.01,"text":"所以在當天的時候呢就臺北市警局還有移民署就做了處理第二天就請他回去中國我第二天就請他回去中國這樣算上來我們中華民國的臺灣有夠優先的也對人很客氣的這如果發生在中國的時候就不是這樣了你有看到我們李明澤去到中國"},{"start":22701.907,"end":22706.848,"text":"當然他要來的時間可能我們沒那麼簡單可以讓他來 因為已經註記了 表示他在台灣"},{"start":22731.472,"end":22740.654,"text":"做到議員來講的目的不一樣我絕對要禁止議員來講他主席的時候他要來的時候他就是因為探親嘛他若有在台灣嘛結果沒理由若調查起來他若有一次已經回到他祖國的中國了啦"},{"start":22756.556,"end":22779.966,"text":"所以補充在這裏面我們的審核是不是有帶有缺點的你看他們哪有登記以來沒有住在台灣這塊土地他沒有經常住在台灣喔中華民國喔但是他是11屆來到台灣的"},{"start":22785.118,"end":22794.543,"text":"結果他們來發聲的事是十幾千人﹖他們若有回應他們祖國的心﹖是七個回應的啦"},{"start":22796.128,"end":22818.698,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在對中國大陸人士來台的這個探親的這個簽證的核准的期間都是6個月專業人士也是6個月商務人士也是6個月這個6個月就是說我發證給你這個6個月內有效您剛剛提到的很重要就是說"},{"start":22819.819,"end":22820.98,"text":"他申請的時候他母親在,但是他來探親的時候母親不在"},{"start":22839.401,"end":22841.402,"text":"對啦 我覺得不是出境而已"},{"start":22863.646,"end":22875.837,"text":"因為他這個對台灣的應用很大的你看人們在那裡的飯碗中,他們兩個阿嬤在那裡亂我也是在那裡批論,那這塊現地,大陸那時候、中國那時候,那要整個頭髮洗什麼來的"},{"start":22886.184,"end":22907.819,"text":"委員我們是自由民主法治的國家我們不像中國大陸但是您提到的對於簽證核發的管理我們要加強包括用抽查等等機制這才是問題啦他要探親的時候是因為他老婆嘛我們的保證的時候他的中間他老婆已經回去我講幾次了啦已經回去他祖國啦"},{"start":22911.562,"end":22912.684,"text":"因為我認為這個未來因為我們現在"},{"start":22931.586,"end":22933.647,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22954.554,"end":22959.337,"text":"在這個規定當中 我也覺得這個打造這個規定"},{"start":22977.062,"end":22997.099,"text":"院長有需要,要如何修法,我相信無分第一檔,無分你是北部的立委,還是南部的立委,都運到這個大廈來發表,院長弟弟歡迎來賓,我們同過修法"},{"start":22999.878,"end":23012.625,"text":"你在5月10日的時候,你有說過什麼你覺得一件?這個打仗的問題你也知道我們武打企業裡面,重要的打仗是要防衛的要防衛啦,因為因為你有說到,想要拚的,也沒辦法拚啦已經拚的,也會抓到啦"},{"start":23024.974,"end":23025.654,"text":"委員長 抱歉委員長抱歉"},{"start":23052.283,"end":23076.621,"text":"王委員回答一下7月底我們通過這個打詐新司法後對我們內政部經濟事務所負責的大部都在第一算所以我們現在大量在做宣傳有關165的部分然後我們今天新公布的這個打詐儀表板9月份打詐的這個案件數跟財損數跟8月份比起來已經下降很多下降很多15%15%15%沒錯"},{"start":23081.121,"end":23084.222,"text":"昨天施政報告：第11屆第2會期第3次會議：第3次會議"},{"start":23101.187,"end":23105.17,"text":"我就是要補充跟院長說我看了一天走一條路 我覺得說 咦?這六個 被騙兩個月啦這六喔 十五喔 騙五個月啦 院長"},{"start":23129.676,"end":23155.932,"text":"你這樣看就知道你會怕嗎當然會啦當然會嘛這個議票版就是要讓大家知道說現在這個情形在社會上很嚴重因為這個受理的表現跟過去我們說表現出來是不一樣的計算跟統計的措施啦現在我們有新的標準但是照這個標準轉來去打現在打詐釋法通過議號我們在法律我們有工具我們透過科技"},{"start":23157.141,"end":23165.608,"text":"來偵辦,我們透過跨國合作來偵辦,很多夢幻在走但是我知道,事情要不會很好?事情要不會很好?對,一定要再努力因為本席在這裡說,他剛才這段時間本席剛才有15分鐘,一定說10分鐘在這個過程當中,我們本席15分鐘說完的時候"},{"start":23181.861,"end":23194.973,"text":"我們的詐騙集團﹐在75分鐘內﹐就騙獎金要450萬所以﹐院長﹐不怪本席若你說﹐說你會怕嗎?真的 我覺得 你說﹐跟部長都一樣的我們希望若受你做政客﹐剛才院長說的﹐是發詐﹐"},{"start":23208.393,"end":23215.256,"text":"做不健康﹚現在做健康﹚還是以前的統計﹚不一樣﹚因為我覺得以前的款﹚"},{"start":23220.265,"end":23247.892,"text":"議員長"},{"start":23248.784,"end":23249.345,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":23267.208,"end":23267.488,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":23284.581,"end":23290.164,"text":"每天公布的數字,但是你真正進入要刑案再辦的時候就會變成我們下面所說的公布的數字,所以不太一樣"},{"start":23303.052,"end":23303.232,"text":"院長報告"},{"start":23324.375,"end":23339.043,"text":"委員是委員代表：因為北省所看好的：就是說我錢不便宜：不管你幾隻好：一百隻好：一千隻好：我最溫暖的就是我錢要怎樣：這才是重要"},{"start":23346.668,"end":23358.662,"text":"你說破案破10件、100件﹖對學生、學生﹖老師、體育的人都沒做問題你如果他的職業不便宜﹖最無能力能做100件﹖他一定會被這樣"},{"start":23364.91,"end":23368.032,"text":"委員有兩種感 委員報告 第一項就是攔阻"},{"start":23380.839,"end":23393.784,"text":"有很多人要去ATM 或是要去銀行 要去指教詐騙集團的警察﹑銀行的人 會在那裡被封鎖那就表示錢沒了不起 這是一種方式另外一種就是 你已經進入警察機關 或是法務部在進展的過程當中你還要等到所有警察機構在後 你才可以要求說這件事可以退還給你而這個程序呢 我們的法務部 跟其他相關的單位 都有一個執法在進行當中"},{"start":23409.509,"end":23427.593,"text":"因為我知道實話當中﹐是北省院長﹐因為我覺得我們要有問題站出來﹐我們要有辦法改善去﹐大廈可以做得好﹐讓他們走﹐像你說的說﹐騙得到也騙不到了﹐要拿起來﹐在這兩天我覺得大廈的事情﹐你我都要繼續加油﹐是"},{"start":23435.115,"end":23435.396,"text":"主席"},{"start":23446.125,"end":23461.978,"text":"為了人民的福利,我相信部長和院長和在座的,包括我們的院長、韓院長也好,都很高興未來這個議程,要怎麼去處理,比較好因為我身為嘉義市,我也要嘉義市的補助的議程,跟建設的議程"},{"start":23471.326,"end":23474.768,"text":"謝謝王美惠委員質詢：謝謝卓院長跟相關部會所長的備詢"},{"start":23500.492,"end":23507.373,"text":"報告委員會現在在旁聽席上二樓貴賓室來自於美國國會助理訪問團我們掌聲歡迎接下來我們請登記第14號馬文君委員質詢馬文君議員"},{"start":23531.412,"end":23535.635,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢麻煩委員好院長午安院長在今天內政的這個諮詢裡面其實可能也有非常多近期大家關切的部分就是總統要成立一個全社會"},{"start":23560.934,"end":23584.375,"text":"防衛任性委員會那這當中特別要培養40萬的可視民力我想要請教這40萬是怎麼計算出來了它包含哪些人或者哪些團體好 謝謝民力的部分它包含的團體相當多比方它有義勇警察大隊"},{"start":23585.433,"end":23585.613,"text":"議員：完整會議"},{"start":23613.37,"end":23623.789,"text":"發生危險的時候他還能夠救援這些人命跟人的生命重要的問題但在穩定整個社會的秩序跟自然的問題協助這些工作"},{"start":23625.21,"end":23649.609,"text":"議員長這聽起來其實是有點虛幻因為其實我們剛剛提到的所有的一些民訪團體比如說義警義消民訪還有義交等等其實這些本來他們在現在他們的工作就是協情所有相關的一些單位的協情其實他們本來就在做而且做的"},{"start":23650.35,"end":23650.57,"text":"施政報告"},{"start":23680.43,"end":23699.795,"text":"可是另外還有一些新的到底是什麼有還有什麼新的嗎首先很感謝委員提到的剛剛這些個團體包括民間的慈善的工作隊長我們討論新的部分好不好第一個我們要感謝他們但是就是要把他們的工作再整合起來做有系統的整合起來"},{"start":23700.555,"end":23728.638,"text":"而不是段段落落的區區段段這樣一段一段來做整合起來整個名利才能夠去做有效的運用我們現在請教另外一個就是我剛剛說的除了剛剛這幾個因為40萬的可是名利除了我們剛剛院長提到的因為你可能還漏掉了就是我們的替代役那替代役裡面他就佔了絕大部分大概26萬多了那還有沒有什麼其他的"},{"start":23729.398,"end":23748.055,"text":"你說的NGO團體NGO團體到目前為止我們的計算基礎大概在3萬到4萬左右那這NGO的團體我們也希望它可以未來有碰到這個大規模的災害的時候可以跟我們的政府的一些力量一起結合舉例來說有哪些NGO團體"},{"start":23749.076,"end":23751.517,"text":"他們過去現在有在做嗎所以其實你們提到的都是現在已經存在的這些相關的組織跟團體那平常其實他們就已經做得非常好"},{"start":23774.77,"end":23796.138,"text":"此計是所有全世界公認﹖他不管在任何的紀律各方面﹖還有效率其實都非常的好﹖甚至他並不需要政府再去多做其他的規範﹖其實反而會綁手綁腳﹖因為我在裡面還有看到就是有黑熊的部分﹖黑熊學院也在我們裡面﹖"},{"start":23797.418,"end":23815.709,"text":"黑熊學院他們是民間團體自己在訓練他們自己的民間的力量那我們是這樣子就是包括像慈濟或是黑熊這些的未來是要那邊就是說如果我們到所以他們未來都會在我們這個可是名利裡面是不是也會屬於其中一環但是是志願性的"},{"start":23817.257,"end":23845.817,"text":"因為現在所有都是志願性的對 志工團體都是志願性的對 因為你在所以這是平時是由內政部來做統整民間團體由民間力量自己來做協助跟訓練但是我們剛剛所提到的如果你是一警一消或甚至替代役的訓練的話那內政部就按照法律來做訓練這些訓練會比較有規模譬如說我們要做EMT的訓練部長 這個他們本來就在做對 但是我們希望能夠再精進"},{"start":23846.778,"end":23867.976,"text":"消防也是因為你還是做初級的我們現在看到你們做的只是初級的救護訓練然後消防的部分其實他們也都有其實我聽到地方的那個教訓 招訓算是去年開始有一些像這樣的協情單位他們去年開始可能有接受去年是一天今年是兩天"},{"start":23868.917,"end":23895.423,"text":"那他們受的一個訓練大概就是檢傷醫的救護然後還有操作無人機可是他們有很多都已經60歲了因為現在年輕人我們少子化其實年輕的並不多不像以前其實要參加疫消都還要排隊那現在其實在招募的過程其實不像過去那麼多了可是他們在訓練大概就訓練這些有一些他們說"},{"start":23897.051,"end":23897.171,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":23922.605,"end":23922.745,"text":"內政部委員"},{"start":23939.022,"end":23939.642,"text":"在這裡不好意思"},{"start":23967.011,"end":23967.031,"text":"委員長"},{"start":23990.251,"end":23990.611,"text":"主席"},{"start":24012.503,"end":24013.684,"text":"委員我需要再說明一下我想不是這樣子第一個現在的國軍他們在救災當中只是支援調度組"},{"start":24030.819,"end":24054.288,"text":"真正有災害發生的時候第一個都是警消在第一線馳援但是支援調度組包括很多機具或者是其他後續的這些清消的工作當然協助 部長沒關係因為你講的這個我就說他們平常已經在做火災發生的當下當然是消防疫消他們會去那疫警當然在整個一個一些維護上面協助警力這些本來就在做我剛剛也講到說你說的救災的部分"},{"start":24056.229,"end":24078.309,"text":"去看看高雄這次發生的時候﹖他調動一千多人﹖一千多名軍人﹖即使在營區也發生這樣的風災的一些情況之下﹖他們還是去做這些救援﹖其實沒有運用到其他的人力﹖我們現在要說的我先簡單的再請教一下﹖因為剛剛念的這些可是民力﹖"},{"start":24079.19,"end":24094.231,"text":"他們有亦警亦消就是這些民防團體他們在一般來說因為我們現在少子化尤其像我們現在的教招教招一般來說他的時間現在拉長然後他的頻率越來越高"},{"start":24094.831,"end":24095.572,"text":"主席"},{"start":24113.434,"end":24116.616,"text":"報告委員 有關招訊的兩個部分在內政部所處理是替代役"},{"start":24141.354,"end":24159.192,"text":"替代議的部長我要請教的是因為不要講天那個我們都知道那個我們都知道已經存在的不用再解釋我現在要講的是因為你剛剛成立這個委員會那這個委員會裡面你又要那邊有40萬的可是名利那這些可是名利裡面扣掉比較"},{"start":24160.693,"end":24160.713,"text":"委員："},{"start":24175.41,"end":24176.17,"text":"後備軍人由國防部負責"},{"start":24198.359,"end":24220.016,"text":"那他是誰呢我跟委員再解釋一下部長你先不要講話那請教院長如果我們這個那邊的委員會我們現在要知道如果因為像義消、義警他們平常做了很多的社會服務的工作他們已經在做了他們是不需要被叫招的現在有人在傳那我們加入黑熊"},{"start":24222.438,"end":24239.755,"text":"是不是我們就不需要叫招 這個變成他可以逃避叫招的一個管道可不可以 這個可不可以 院長請在這裡明確的讓大家知道這完全沒有辦法重疊跟取代每一個不同的團體他都有他的主管機關會負責他平常的業務 這個都不會受影響"},{"start":24240.556,"end":24257.009,"text":"那或許我們在地方大型的演練的時候會有一些基本上的訓練但是這還沒有做到細部的計畫那為什麼要有40萬的名利因為大型災害來臨的時候可能在很多的地點可能在交通受阻的地方可能要出現非常緊急的救援"},{"start":24261.931,"end":24270.856,"text":"南投縣曾經發生921大地震在這麼大的一個天然災害裡面其實大家的互助那個已經是每個人都動起來當然我們知道"},{"start":24272.557,"end":24272.937,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24297.003,"end":24297.323,"text":"目前不會增加"},{"start":24328.184,"end":24353.124,"text":"每年招訓的元額大概是26萬也就是說我們現在在徵招的時候在動員實施的時候你如果在徵招期間對於徵招勤務還有軍需生產的人力是召集退伍以後8年內的後備軍人大概就是76萬人如果再加上我們的常備部隊25萬人左右大概可以用的就是100萬"},{"start":24354.565,"end":24372.154,"text":"就是在作戰的時候就是這一百萬人是可以用的因為我們為什麼要特別提出來是過去沒有像這樣子說把混在一起因為剛剛你的那個可是名利的就是這個委員會裡面其實他他的有些工作項目是跟軍"},{"start":24374.055,"end":24393.03,"text":"這個我們在動員實施階段﹚軍方的這些任務其實是有些是重疊的﹚所以到時候可能會發生有一些混亂的一個狀況﹚我想請教的是如果暫時部隊耗損的時候補充人力要從哪裡來"},{"start":24396.807,"end":24408.982,"text":"這個40萬的名利基本上他不會參與剛剛說的那樣的一個活動跟那樣的任務他主要是在訓練他從事剛剛說的協助收容緊急救援以及次序維護"},{"start":24410.08,"end":24432.293,"text":"副長因為我為什麼特別提到就是說因為現在大家會覺得你好像準備的是戰爭的狀況所以我特別提出來是剛剛那40萬人裡面其實是跟我們的戰爭就是我們在沒有就是跟我們的後備體系可能會被納到包括我們常備部隊一起要參與作戰的如果他在梯隊耗損以後其實通常會從這些人"},{"start":24433.234,"end":24435.416,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員的質詢謝謝卓院長相關部會所長的備詢報告委員會接下來登記第15號李寅泰化委員請質詢"},{"start":24467.134,"end":24470.735,"text":"林委員好在正式質詢之前要希望得到我們行政院的權力支持這次短短兩個月內我們高雄市遭受楷米跟三坨颱風的重擊榮與災損"},{"start":24495.279,"end":24497.2,"text":"風速達到一定的程度"},{"start":24525.287,"end":24548.804,"text":"那麼全品項的救災這個是農業部早有的這個計畫當中在補助的措施當中那這一次包括跟上一次我們這一次到屏東他也是這樣子在處理那至於說免現勘的部分現在農業部他有一個APP的照相的平台你總是要有一個依據你把它拍的傳上去傳上去讓他說真的是這個地方有這個地點有這樣的損害"},{"start":24553.848,"end":24574.433,"text":"好 院長 若您這樣已經承諾 我想地方政府各個城市跟鄉鄉政事公所他就知道 他只要提供照片免抗災就可以來做認定的一個依據但是這邊有一個善意的提醒 在4月3號我們的花蓮地震補助花東的農產品的運輸 我們的媒體政策上叫做全部補助蛋"},{"start":24575.253,"end":24600.059,"text":"實質上每副補助的額度卻限100箱的這個交通補助所以在這邊只是善意的提醒避免政府的這樣的美意在執行到最末端的時候是榮民的感受跟政策間出現落差的遺憾好今天質詢的是消失的兒童郵寄權益別讓兒童郵寄權益成為台灣缺少的一塊拼圖"},{"start":24600.879,"end":24624.899,"text":"在這邊兒童權益為普世價值政府不應該置身事外而且本身本國的法令是形成混亂的現況也讓院長知道以及我們現在特色遊景場的困境有三具體建議有三好兒童權益的為普世價值政府不該置身事外每年也就是下個月11月20號就是國際兒童人權日在聯合國兒童權利的這個兒童"},{"start":24627.701,"end":24648.971,"text":"權利公約當中我們的第31條就講到兒童享有休息休閒的權利有從事適合其年齡的遊戲娛樂活動的權利以及自己參加文化生活藝術的生活的權利好本國2014年通過兒童權利公約實施法落實的做法是兩個現況"},{"start":24650.411,"end":24678.203,"text":"各縣市政府各行其事我們的中央卻沒有主政的統籌機關好2015年民間發起黃我特色公園2022年民間團體說了希望許孩子一個永續的遊戲城市六都的候選人都承諾了但目前各縣市的做法是怎麼樣呢第一個裁員不同第二個主管機關不同在各縣市政府室外的公園遊戲場是公務局"},{"start":24679.884,"end":24695.563,"text":"市內親子館是社會群各局處在公共建設當中是可以興建自己的親子遊樂場看到中央我們特色公園中央主管的機關是誰這邊一定要讓院長知道了"},{"start":24697.023,"end":24712.36,"text":"衛福部社家署訂定遊戲場設施規範內政部國土署負責闢建公園綠地教育部國教署補助學校遊戲場建置經濟部水利署負責合併公園設置"},{"start":24714.702,"end":24729.962,"text":"那產巴署要負責輔導本土的遊具業者我們特色公園主管機關是誰呢目前是多頭馬車那我地方政府要向哪一個部會來申請呢"},{"start":24730.643,"end":24758.676,"text":"好我們有這個特色公園有三個困境第一個遮蔽不足高溫難耐這個遮陽設施是不足兒童啊是容易曬傷燙傷的而且呢公園的遮蔽不應該只有仰賴現有的樹木也應該要考慮到棚架帆布以及提供水源降溫好我們的地方政府的裁員部族就把這樣的遮陽設施納入了下一期的維護經費間接的就排擠到什麼"},{"start":24759.316,"end":24788.391,"text":"部到公設體建設施的修繕預算好我們來看鋪面材質影響場地的溫度同等的日照設施自然草地跟人工草皮的溫度就可以達30度了好我們的特色公園困境二空間不足挑戰低挑戰性是低的特色公園的用地是取得不易除了發會聚資引進的外國特色郵據來改善現有公園各縣市政府是少有的"},{"start":24788.911,"end":24812.989,"text":"用置地重劃取得公園用地﹚再用標授地備備來蓋遊戲場這樣的案例是少所以我們地方人投入的資源說不多的所以在這邊本席呼籲我們行政院中央應該要重視跟主打好我們再看這個有空間不足當中講的油罐罐頭油去充斥各公園"},{"start":24813.949,"end":24829.741,"text":"雖然安全但是特色不足不好玩的公園就如同閒置的公共設施好第一個全國一封翁的蓋特色公園已經大同小異的國外郵據如鳥巢四秋間那遙遙馬出現了罐頭郵據2.0"},{"start":24833.323,"end":24860.782,"text":"感覺就是同一本的廠商目錄挑出來的並不能向國外結合在地景觀跟人文特色發展鄉鎮特色的遊戲場第二個也因為我們太過度於依賴國外進口遊具要維修的時候就必須等待國外的零件缺乏國內產業鏈的這個連結好 第三個我們的數量不足好玩的公園是人潮洶湧"},{"start":24861.963,"end":24874.781,"text":"不好玩的公園是乏人問津所以我們身為爸爸媽媽的現在是跨縣制為孩子找尋特色公園也印證了供需失衡比如我們屏東車城"},{"start":24876.411,"end":24893.048,"text":"的洋蔥大福遊樂場高雄時代公園的遊樂場臺南港濱公歷史公園的遊樂場都是地方政府千萬級的打造但後續的維護費用是非常的高昂導致地方政府無法再興建新的同等級的遊樂場"},{"start":24894.349,"end":24916.402,"text":"好我這個再講到身心障礙者我們的選項更少了輪椅族能玩的設施是不多的即使公園我採用共榮式的設計只要一走出遊樂場那我周遭的無障礙設施是未見改善我興建公園的美意減半所以本席也主張應該逐年撿到各公園各公園的這個遊戲場的共榮設施"},{"start":24920.105,"end":24940.363,"text":"實現所有人一起玩具體建議有三這要請院長明確的答覆第一個 中央應確立主管機關到這個主管機關怎麼樣的重要呢因為是澈澈公園的主管機關他要來跟衛福部教育部內政部主計總處各單位來成立跨部會的專責"},{"start":24941.624,"end":24970.785,"text":"院長您願不願意來認定兒童遊戲空間的國家總體目標如果我們行政院真的面對少子化當中我們也願意把兒童遊戲空間當作國家總體目標預算計劃我們通通就要出來了而且也要列為國家重點施政方向這是第一個等一下請院長來回應第二個我們除了室外之外室內也應該設置親子遊樂空間而且要結合右腳"},{"start":24971.425,"end":24971.445,"text":"委員："},{"start":24988.287,"end":24999.33,"text":"運動中心﹚立體停車場﹚休閒校舍﹚活動中心﹚辦公大樓﹚輔導地方政府多目標使用﹚讓促餐業者榮記獎勵﹚讓他們願意回饋公共特色遊樂場﹚室內親子館的相關設施﹚擴大兒童遊戲場域"},{"start":25009.432,"end":25023.497,"text":"針對室內的部分以及相關我們的公共建設 院部也有這樣的一個獎勵第三個 油具國產化跟公園特色化我們要讓罐頭油具不腐爛 國產油具帶動智慧製造"},{"start":25025.337,"end":25030.726,"text":"智慧製造的特色就是少量多養所以請產業發展署將郵據國產化視為產業轉型的重點主責輔導國內的金屬構建房部塑膠地電建築景觀等產業"},{"start":25041.401,"end":25068.147,"text":"發展特色遊戲場的解決方案提供國內多樣客製化的選擇降低進口的依賴同時帶動我們產業製造脈絡智慧化高質化協助公園結合地方特色提升兒童權益這三項我們一一來看院長您要怎麼樣的來承諾中央對於特色主管機關的部會是哪一個"},{"start":25068.971,"end":25074.519,"text":"好委員報告社區裡面的公園或是校園裡的或是公園裡的"},{"start":25075.848,"end":25103.046,"text":"他現在都是由他的場域所在地的目的事業主管機關那如果要把它統一一個地方效率是不是會更高呢在公園裡面的如果要衛福來管在學校裡面的值得考慮我們可以來考量這個事情是如何產生一個更高的效率同時就有很多是地方政府去維護"},{"start":25105.01,"end":25107.391,"text":"特色公園不應該納入國家總體目標不應該納為國家重點的施施方向"},{"start":25120.518,"end":25137.934,"text":"為了小孩子能夠有一個好的環境 院長您可以把這個問題帶回去 到你不需要在現在就馬上否決因為你這是矛盾 我說我們來想一個更高效率的方式至少你要回應本席 你要交給哪一個人或哪一個單位先來做研議"},{"start":25139.464,"end":25161.839,"text":"還是要內政部跟教育部跟衛福部分別來討論一個就好 哪一個一個就好 那我請政委來負責好不好哪一個政委如果這樣我請陳時中政委來負責好 陳時中 陳政委 好 謝謝好 第二個我們在這個室外的兒童遊憩場域之外有室內的部分您認不認同呢 如果你認同在陳時中政委他的"},{"start":25162.499,"end":25175.855,"text":"這樣的一個協調這個評估的當中他就會納入包括我的各個公共建設我如果有促成的隆基獎勵讓他能讓業者來回饋公共特色的遊戲場包括室內的遊戲場你的看法"},{"start":25178.678,"end":25178.838,"text":"內政部討論："},{"start":25194.685,"end":25216.511,"text":"我要擴增我政府不用花太多的預算可是我卻能夠在公共建設導入的時候我就可以拿到我的公共設施這就是本席希望的在減少政府的負擔之下您願不願意也納入評估呢當然可以我請內政部來評估是由陳時中政委同樣這個方案來評估這個問題還是要內政部先來評估我們再送交政委來討論好了"},{"start":25222.099,"end":25246.57,"text":"所以你這個是可以分開執行是嗎是只要內政部就可以來針對這個促參的部分就可以先來評估是嗎我想我這一件部分這個部分我可以請內政部來評估怎麼樣跟這個隆基獎勵等等那這樣的話是不是一個月內就可以給本席這樣的回應了好我請謝謝好第三個我們郵據國產化公園特色化"},{"start":25247.27,"end":25248.871,"text":"經濟部的產發署就是在協助國內廠商你願不願意將主責這樣一個新增的業務給經濟部產發署呢"},{"start":25273.583,"end":25288.719,"text":"可以的 產發組本身就是從事這樣的業務的謝謝院長你很明確的願意將我們的特色公園在很清楚的明確回應本席包括我們的國產化包括我們室內的增加透過相關的容積獎率的評估也願意在主則當中先"},{"start":25293.604,"end":25317.513,"text":"做評估由我們陳時中政委好謝謝院長你很明確的對我們兒童權益的重視也願意把它當作國家總體目標這件事情我想要再問一次院長你認不認為兒童遊戲空間是國家的總體目標這是第一個兒童遊戲空間應不應該納為國家重點施政請回答這兩個問題"},{"start":25319.321,"end":25331.957,"text":"兒童遊戲空間是國家可以發展的重要的政策之一這個我當然同意您願不願意把兒童遊戲空間的預算計畫演練為國家重點施政呢我們會在"},{"start":25334.241,"end":25358.057,"text":"施政的過程當中會把他納進去整個施政當中的一環因為這是新生項目 院長其實這是過往我們政府沒有特別去重視所以希望在卓院長的人頂這個就是我們對於全台然後人民的所有的下一代他的遊戲權我們在卓院長的內閣當中很明確的一個施政的一個重點亮點好 謝謝院長謝謝 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":25361.604,"end":25375.89,"text":"謝謝林代化委員的質詢：謝謝卓院長的備詢報院會內政組織質詢已詢答完畢我們現在休息10分鐘休息之後進行外交及國防組織質詢現在休息"},{"start":25989.947,"end":26006.162,"text":"現在我們繼續開會進行外交及國防組織質詢第一位沈博洋委員質詢以書面提出請行政院以書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報接下來我們請黃仁委員質詢"},{"start":26020.68,"end":26049.503,"text":"有請我們部長 國防部部長麻煩請國防部部長備選是 黃偉豪部長好國軍是不是螺絲鬆了今天下午兩點半在清泉崗"},{"start":26052.153,"end":26078.392,"text":"防空 空軍防空器這個指揮部中心裡面發生了一個死亡案件這個是在信念的過程裡面子彈貫穿了下耳子彈從下耳裡面貫穿了這個臉結果後來送醫之後送醫不治死亡了"},{"start":26079.485,"end":26101.006,"text":"在信念的過程我曾經待過那個單位我們在以前叫空軍防砲的一個信念營那個地方我們曾經受信的時候非常嚴格不管在任志作戰包含信念基礎的基本動作都非常嚴格"},{"start":26102.237,"end":26108.564,"text":"現在反觀現在你看看我們很多的這些自殺案件軍中裡面的這些狀況包含剛剛發生的"},{"start":26114.364,"end":26143.15,"text":"發生了是不是信念的問題還是鬆懈了造成士官兵的死亡今天父母好不容易把孩子送給到國金裡面來為國家效力但是在信念的過程包含教育信念這個非常嚴謹又嚴格的事情今天我想請教國金"},{"start":26151.789,"end":26160.778,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛也是接到司令跟我報告就這個部分當然我感到也非常沉痛"},{"start":26161.636,"end":26190.234,"text":"那發生這樣不幸的意外那現在有關進一步的這個因為這個是在打靶訓練的過程當中發生的當然啦那有關這個整個過程是如何那他們現在正在調閱這個監視錄影帶那正在釐清事實當中那等事實釐清之後再跟我委員來做一個進一步的報告那我想我們"},{"start":26191.367,"end":26193.949,"text":"就整個打靶訓練的過程當中的嚴謹度,我們會透過這些事件進一步檢討"},{"start":26202.501,"end":26227.332,"text":"所以今天我們講的我們常常講說我們在這一次裡面的國防預算是最高6400多億買武器縱然是對我們國際的戰力戰備絕對有效但是現在的士兵的換算包含要自願意的現在已經減少的將近6成以上因為他們不願意當兵"},{"start":26228.195,"end":26251.981,"text":"為什麼他寧可說我寧可在社會上工作我也不願意去擔兵那現在自願意的少之又少甚至他義務的也不願意去冒這個風險但是他必須要盡國家之義務那往往產生了什麼在訓練的過程包含這些紀律"},{"start":26252.722,"end":26252.902,"text":"麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":26281.564,"end":26281.885,"text":"我們現在講的是一個"},{"start":26295.902,"end":26296.002,"text":"主國論的問題主國論問題"},{"start":26325.107,"end":26335.523,"text":"現在談論這個祖國論我們賴總統拋出了這個祖國論的論調我們看一下大陸到現在為什麼沒有任何反應"},{"start":26337.749,"end":26363.254,"text":"沒有任何反應倒是我們不具名的國安據說國安高層透過管道放這個消息警告國人那大陸準備還台經驗到底是誰在地協力者那另外就是這顯然有自導自演的一個現象那今天討論這個祖國論"},{"start":26365.874,"end":26382.744,"text":"對岸沒有任何反應我再請教雙數國慶即將來臨我們今天期待我們賴總統在對國人跟國際的這一些論述的話是不是又挑起"},{"start":26383.65,"end":26405.493,"text":"這個祖國人挑起兩岸之間的神經那院長你回答一下希望也能夠賴總統聽到國人的期盼是希望和諧兩岸之間的和平而不是挑起待會我要問部長談非論來你回答一下"},{"start":26406.941,"end":26430.893,"text":"報告委員總統過幾天在雙十國慶上面的講話當然不是我現在預先就能夠知道要講什麼話的但是從前一個晚上10月5號晚上國慶晚會上總統說中華民國是我們的祖國這句話邏輯一定沒有錯而且從歷史的事實看來中華民國存在113年這個歷史也沒有錯"},{"start":26434.226,"end":26462.73,"text":"他的結論是中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個結論也沒有錯其實這個都是挑起了兩岸的神經講本國就好了嘛為什麼一定要講祖國論對不對我們很多在祖國論是他們的對岸的議題不是我們台灣中華民國的國家裡面所講的祖國論當然為什麼一定要"},{"start":26463.208,"end":26466.489,"text":"沒有自導自演的這個狀況因為除了我剛剛講的三個沒有錯之外我們也希望"},{"start":26489.557,"end":26489.957,"text":"國際危機組織 你有沒有聽過這個組織"},{"start":26518.475,"end":26543.751,"text":"國際危機組織他是非營利的單位他是站在一個國際中立的論述講出了一段話講什麼話就是在報告說賴總統當選之後大陸已軟化的作詞有意是賴政府更容易表達出改善兩岸關係"},{"start":26545.953,"end":26564.122,"text":"的意向但是賴總統以強硬的立場應對北京加劇了緊張的局勢國慶會自委約束但國際危機組織的報告裡面卻告訴了我們台灣的政客卻挑釁或升高其勢請問"},{"start":26567.339,"end":26593.745,"text":"這個就是國際危機組織裡面所表達的因為在國際間他是認同這個國際危機組織的這個非營利的單位所表達的論述所以這個就是一個很明白的站在一個中立但是對我們國內來講我們常常會講一些意識形態的議題那部長你的看法勒"},{"start":26595.163,"end":26615.478,"text":"我想總統的態度應該也都是在維持台海整個乃至於整個印太區域和平的這個觀點來從事相關的一個論述我們沒有無意要挑釁那跟委員報告我想您也可以看到每天共機擾"},{"start":26617.76,"end":26637.31,"text":"進行軍事的恫嚇來越過中線洗澡然後軍艦在我們台海的周邊來環繞這個部分進行這樣挑釁迫害台海乃至印太的區域和平包括在南海跟東海這個都看得出來是中國在做我們沒有在製造這個挑釁的作為"},{"start":26638.31,"end":26664.786,"text":"我想賴總統描述的也是一個客觀的事實也沒有再做任何挑釁的我想一個我站在一個比較中肯的角度來看來分享給院長國防部長第一個我們在過去裡面請問一下我們會常常有這樣的一個這個他們的潛艦在繞近到近向到我們12海裡有嗎在過去沒有為什麼"},{"start":26665.543,"end":26677.695,"text":"因為我們的論述沒有去挑釁可是現在的論述一直在挑釁然後我們自己國人下阻自己的國人然後自己緊張那祖國論是不是"},{"start":26678.775,"end":26703.314,"text":"國安高層裏面的放話來嚇阻我們國人這就是一個很多的一些異象很多的脈絡才會產生今天為什麼有很多的共青裏面的潛艦一直繞台繞台原因在哪裡就是因為我們今天的論述一直在挑釁論述一直在挑釁我們今天講的另外"},{"start":26705.706,"end":26724.8,"text":"我想一直在挑釁的是中國,中國每天都在以軍事兵力的洗腦在挑釁我們武力犯台是過去我們一直不會說武力犯台,也沒有人去承認,也沒有人去否認,但是"},{"start":26726.172,"end":26751.364,"text":"台灣有些高層就是一直主張挑釁的論述所以產生今天為什麼會我們兩岸之間的緊張的局勢都會產生原因就在這裡第二個關於全社會防疫韌性政策好這韌性政策裡面就會有什麼有五大的涵蓋五大的主軸第一個就是"},{"start":26752.022,"end":26753.963,"text":"好今天我們如果"},{"start":26781.485,"end":26810.175,"text":"在真正動全員動力然後40萬名令如果再以按照今天的報告的結果有將近七成都不同意這七成不同意的話怎麼辦你如果你這論述你要召集這個所謂的這個全社會防衛任性委員"},{"start":26811.677,"end":26812.738,"text":"跟委員報告齁我們"},{"start":26839.369,"end":26862.811,"text":"要維持一個韌性的台灣要能夠防備任何的緊急事態的一個發生我們一定要強調我們全社會的一個韌性所以這個重點是在我們要強調整個全社會的一個韌性這樣的韌性越強我們才有辦法讓這個中國一直表示不放棄以武力併吞台灣的這個企圖"},{"start":26864.232,"end":26884.934,"text":"透過我們這個韌性透過我們國軍的自我防衛的能力的決心一直在加強之後才能夠有效的嚇阻中國不敢輕易的冒進那我想這個全民防衛這個全社會防衛韌性委員會的目的也就是在目標就是在國家面臨災害或緊急狀況的時候"},{"start":26886.375,"end":26899.007,"text":"他可以維持整個政府跟社會核心功能的持續運作這是很重要的一個任性台灣的建設的項目之一那如果說大家沒有辦法維持這樣的一個任性"},{"start":26901.423,"end":26920.175,"text":"我們就沒有辦法能夠足夠的產生一個嚇阻力量那你剛剛的命題我要說的是那有超過8成5以上的人都主張要維持現狀那維持現狀在中國看起來我想他也是不能他也是一種挑釁"},{"start":26921.135,"end":26943.664,"text":"他就是不能夠接受第一個我剛剛前面所談的國軍的螺絲現在在鬆懈了如果我們今天把國軍的戰備戰力我們的國軍的信念有數的話請問我們還有民兵嗎我們以前有召集過啊召集令一個禮拜"},{"start":26997.761,"end":26998.102,"text":"徐巧興委員"},{"start":27029.827,"end":27031.048,"text":"謝謝 謝謝院長 那我們有請這個 請開門等一下"},{"start":27059.235,"end":27059.475,"text":"麻煩請卓院長備選"},{"start":27090.905,"end":27117.376,"text":"徐委員好院長好我第一個想問的是國家級警報在2024年1月9號大選前曾經發布過那時候還把衛星寫成飛彈造成了人民的恐慌這一次在雙十國慶的前夕不僅不知名的國安高層放了消息告訴大家大陸準備要進行還台的軍演"},{"start":27118.036,"end":27124.262,"text":"國防部也發了新聞稿說明對方將在雙十國慶發布會經過我國ADIZ的衛星那請問這次會發布國家急警報嗎"},{"start":27129.733,"end":27147.807,"text":"先跟我們報告您說的第一次在1月份的那個警報確實在用詞上不夠精準是我想各個相關的單位也做過事後的檢討那已經有相當的改進我想未來這種事情不至於發生那至於說現在在國慶之前在台灣海峽上面確實"},{"start":27149.288,"end":27171.803,"text":"這段時間以來都有一些大大小小的各種在中國海空軍的演習是真的那我們也充分掌握各種動向我還是認為對國家的安全沒有妨礙對人民的安心我們要讓人民感覺到我們在國慶日當天因為目前國防部已經發布了這個知道了10月10號的時候會有一個"},{"start":27172.824,"end":27177.468,"text":"我們現在所獲得的情緒理解它是就由西艙發射之後往西太平洋的方向飛行那會經過我們台灣防空的識別區"},{"start":27195.626,"end":27207.321,"text":"但在經過我們這裡的時候應該已經高度已經卡門線了沒有預計發布就對了但是我們仍然會應用各種的行政手段來掌握整個彈道的方向這下要問的是顧部長"},{"start":27215.01,"end":27242.458,"text":"剛才您已經證實在清泉崗基地發生的這個悲劇是有一名士兵身亡令人感到遺憾但是這個過程也非常的懸疑到目前為止都沒有辦法確認該員重槍的原因是什麼是自槍是操作不當還是被榴彈打到所以我想請部長現場替我們說明空軍執行T91步槍的打靶射擊從打靶到輕槍的SOP是什麼"},{"start":27244.488,"end":27256.776,"text":"我想細節的這個部分我現在也沒有辦法能夠詳細的回答為什麼不能詳細的回答因為你問的是等於是打靶的流程的一個SOP對啊 您當貨幣嗎對 那我想"},{"start":27260.698,"end":27261.759,"text":"我問的是T91鋪槍的打靶射擊從打靶到輕槍的SOP"},{"start":27284.098,"end":27288.463,"text":"您是新任的部長,但是這些SOP您應該要了解"},{"start":27299.655,"end":27324.717,"text":"因為呢我給您一些時間因為您不是軍人部長出身但是我必須也很坦誠的告訴你這是一個國防部長應該最基本要了解的然後國軍向我反映今天有國軍向我反映他說每一次打靶的時候他都很害怕因為輕槍的人第一很多人沒有按照程序來"},{"start":27325.95,"end":27346.467,"text":"打彈時安全軍官以為處理好了結果槍枝還是故障有時候是檢查的人有問題有時候根本就是槍枝故障有問題所以這邊要特別跟部長來拜託調查的時候請不要只推給士兵說他不清楚流程自己疏失"},{"start":27347.268,"end":27367.046,"text":"人既然是非自然死亡我認為也應該請檢調一起進來查核而且這不是單一士兵的擔憂是許多軍人都有的共同恐懼國防部應該要全面的改善跟檢討打打槍支以及槍支檢查的SOP部長可以做到嗎"},{"start":27367.546,"end":27384.433,"text":"是我想委員的指教是對的我想我下去之後根據這個事件我會要求全面的釐清相關事情這個不幸事件發生的經過那整個您剛剛提到的整個SOP他有沒有做到那應有的SOP是什麼"},{"start":27385.049,"end":27405.955,"text":"那我一清之後再跟委員做一個詳細的報告好那接下來呢兩位也都請留步首先我們要來請教的是這個PDA總統的提用權也就是美國免費的提供臺灣軍事援助那我們是不用出錢的本來是美式一裝這個院長應該也非常的清楚"},{"start":27407.216,"end":27421.152,"text":"去年7月底美國白宮首度宣布要動用PDA美國總統提用權對台灣軍事價值提供3.45億美元也就是110億台幣的裝備這聽起來非常的美好"},{"start":27425.217,"end":27453.975,"text":"但是呢在今年的9月11號美國白宮呢他們也在這個國防部的檢查總長發出的針對美國國防部用的這個總統提用權提供給臺灣裝備之追蹤監察評估報告裡面說明了這些PDA裝備沒有進行有效的品質管理你可以看到上面發布的單位是美國的Inspector General那請問一下我先問一下卓院長"},{"start":27454.795,"end":27464.745,"text":"您有看過這份報告嗎 院長 詳細報告的內容沒有全部看到 但知道這個過程那部長請問您有看過這份報告嗎"},{"start":27466.126,"end":27494.073,"text":"他們有跟我做過相關的簡報OK做簡報好那既然是這樣的話齁那我先問一下院長齁因為這題是院長的要確認一下院長對國政是否瞭解那請部長先稍等一下這3.45億的PDA項目目前有多少抵達台灣了這個應該是要問部長要先問你等一下會問他這個我真的你不確定這個我不會每天去問多少進度在這裡好那個部長"},{"start":27496.35,"end":27501.494,"text":"我問的是多少比例已經來到臺灣了?3.45億的第一批我們正在跟美國的國安部互相協調我們在跟美國的國安部在協調3.45億的第一批100%已經抵達臺灣了報告裡面都有寫"},{"start":27523.391,"end":27538.472,"text":"報告裡面都有寫來我們看一下那你一定就也不知道3.451裡面的第一批貨送往臺灣的時間點在什麼時候吧因為前面一個問題你都不知道了後面一個問題顯然你也不知道沒關係那我直接告訴大家"},{"start":27539.994,"end":27560.87,"text":"頭兩架飛機飛來台灣是在去年的12月底左右那這個騎乘是去年的12月底一路到今年的3月中這是第一批美國的PDA他開始提供台灣軍軍事的支援從去年的12月到今年的3月中左右的這一段時間那一共就是110億元的軍事協助"},{"start":27564.833,"end":27584.982,"text":"但是我們從去年底到3月中左右收到的第一批PDA的軍備卻是長這樣我們看一下各種發霉或是受潮的情況請問國防部是在審的時候知道PDA的軍備我們所收到的有這樣子受損跟發霉的損壞這件事情的"},{"start":27585.282,"end":27585.622,"text":"請問如何處理?"},{"start":27610.455,"end":27638.104,"text":"檢診之後就要去檢查這些防彈背心跟您提到的這些彈藥本身還是不是堪用我們最後檢診的結果還是堪用不過我們在程序上我們認為這個程序就是說它在交運的這個程序的過程當中有這樣的疏失我們還是要求要改善好的 了解我們看一下那個站板的圖片好不好"},{"start":27639.685,"end":27664.625,"text":"讓這個部長那個對他是這樣子一箱一箱運進來的你可以看到這個圖片他是這樣一箱一箱運進來的那因為那個底下一個一個的站板我們用那個站板來做計算的話他這個一塊一塊的站板他就是一箱一箱的運那請問一下以這個站板的數量來做計算的話請問國防部知道有多少的比例是有受潮的情況嗎"},{"start":27666.785,"end":27667.425,"text":"可是他是一個公開的報告呀"},{"start":27696.668,"end":27712.103,"text":"對那這一個部分呢只是在其中的我只能告訴你就是說67%我不想浪費時間了我現在所說的東西都不是秘密他是公開在網路上可以看到的美國公開的報告67%的"},{"start":27716.126,"end":27734.616,"text":"這樣子運過來的產品它都是受潮的我們接下來繼續看如果您講的是黃蛋背信的話黃蛋背信我們接受原證的這個項目有好幾萬到十幾萬件不等只有4000餘件是受潮發明的狀況"},{"start":27736.537,"end":27761.179,"text":"這個我想黃彈背信的部分是這樣子彈的部分大概您提到了大概是就是說有些是期限的問題但是我跟您提就是說傳統的彈藥是批號彈藥裡面它並其實並沒有期限問題所以它還是要經過檢診之後算是堪不堪用經過檢診之後還是可以堪用所以最重要的是抗彈板的部分你們要確定絕對不能再用了"},{"start":27761.519,"end":27782.473,"text":"因為呢 其實像防彈衣 抗彈板 子彈跟搬用機槍的部分都很多有受潮 損毀 發霉跟包裝不良的用品所以它被局部公開了接下來 國軍確實花了數週整理烘乾跟庫存受損的軍品我想請問 我們國軍針對這一批受損的"},{"start":27786.535,"end":27813.05,"text":"PDA裝備我們有沒有花經費來做處理處置跟委員報告我想我們已經我剛剛已經已經有透露一些我們接受了一些狀況了但是我不想我不覺得我應該要再進一步就每一項的品項跟跟委員在不是每一項就是整體而言我現在要說明的就是剛剛已經說了是少量的狀況有"},{"start":27814.051,"end":27828.643,"text":"那我們少量狀況那經過跟美方反映那也共同來檢診之後我們認為是可以堪用的那這個本身就是應用我們自己本身的很少量嗎美國國防部光是他們自己在回收這一批東西花了2405個小時花了62萬美金"},{"start":27833.027,"end":27856.998,"text":"也花了另外11萬美金去更換105個防彈板跟3件戰術背心然後這是還沒有運到台灣的部分那我們台灣也花了好幾個禮拜針對受潮發媒的PDA裝備進行拆包乾燥跟盤點而且根據報告裡面來說我們國軍是有出資的我想請問我們花了多少錢在"},{"start":27857.978,"end":27863.849,"text":"免費的最貴的這件事情上面是用自動支了哪一筆的預算來做相關的盤整"},{"start":27865.582,"end":27887.642,"text":"我覺得我要跟委員報告我們接受的您剛也提到了這個公開的資料顯示它這是110億的一個這麼大的一個款項接受的這個項目跟時間我們認為是屬於機密不宜公開那其中有四千餘件是受潮發明的這個狀況我們本身應用我們自己既有的這個維持的這個"},{"start":27891.641,"end":27895.802,"text":"那請問這些受潮損壞的東西會被計算在第一批的3.45億美元的PDA扣打裡面嗎?沒有沒有 有些不堪用退回去了"},{"start":27913.382,"end":27915.063,"text":"跟委員報告我不曉得您的資訊的來源是哪裡紫色的那一頁"},{"start":27927.506,"end":27953.949,"text":"我剛已經告訴你了是Inspector General他們美國的檢察院的這公開的報告我剛也問你們有沒有看過一位告訴我說有向林檢報過一位告訴我說你們知情然後知道有這樣子的一個說明我所有剛剛提出的每一個內容每一個都是從報告裡面的公開資訊你們不要自己沒有看報告的細節跟內容然後就說這個是秘密"},{"start":27954.569,"end":27977.044,"text":"這沒有在網路上都能夠查得到的事情那這是我接收到的狀況也沒有錯阿來自於美方的報告也沒有錯阿好最後我時間真的很不夠最後看一下最後一張好不好是我們都是提到已經交易的部分來看最後一張這上面都是寫到我們接收的狀況他是根據來到台灣的PDA做的整個調查"},{"start":27984.409,"end":27996.174,"text":"最後我們向你們所知我們在驗貨的時候我們是由美方押運人員與國防部負責簽收報關及出關作業但在他們的調查裡面是"},{"start":28010.498,"end":28011.578,"text":"主席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":28041.821,"end":28061.559,"text":"議員長首先我要真的在這個正式的國會典當當中表達我們博軍在這次救災當中的權力資源尤其在重創高雄的兩個月內的颱風在這邊我深深的一鞠躬感謝第二個也針對剛才所發生的事故我們士兵在訓練當中貫穿臉部"},{"start":28065.362,"end":28084.016,"text":"而死亡本席在這邊希望得到院長兩個承諾第一個趕快的加速調查原因第二個後端的撫恤我想這也是我們現在的家屬最難過的時候所以部長您怎麼來看這本席的這兩個的訴求"},{"start":28086.213,"end":28115.711,"text":"報告委員除了剛剛部長在這裡﹖就初步手上資料答覆之外﹖我們會請空軍指令部﹖會做統一的調查跟說明﹖這個一定給家屬﹖也給社會一個清楚的交代﹖同時用這個事件﹖對貴來軍方﹖在打靶訓練過程當中﹖如何做得更安全﹖那當然是一個重要的課題﹖我們會嚴肅的面對在撫恤的部分 院面在這邊也做個﹖在之後的報告公開的這個公告的時候﹖也做個說明了"},{"start":28116.884,"end":28145.491,"text":"復續的部分復續復續我們當然這個我們當然會按照規定來然後我們來從優來復續好從優復續好本期這個正式質詢這個孤軍後裔回國國家的承諾不能再延遲第一個我針對亞西亞的孤兒孤軍的援取做個說明第二個孤軍在國外的狀況跟國內在辦理國際上的困境最後本期有具體的要求"},{"start":28145.991,"end":28162.6,"text":"人權作家博洋在議遇書中有提到一群被遺忘的人他們戰死便與草木同袖他們戰勝仍是天地不容這一群人他認定他是中華民國的國籍可是他卻不能回歸中華民國這個祖國"},{"start":28166.541,"end":28185.727,"text":"雅夏姑兒追溯到1949年國共內戰勢力後﹐隨後在當地也成立了一支非常特殊的軍事力量﹐當初策隊來台11300多人﹐在當地的社會當中是受到歧視跟排擠的﹐"},{"start":28187.107,"end":28215.075,"text":"這個在當地當中也沒有辦法有他的身份所以他們所面對的困境就是在在當地當中的教學醫療是嚴重受到限制的因為他沒有正式的身份證而也因為沒有身份證缺乏合法的工作機會後後裔其後裔的家庭是生活貧困的依賴低薪或不穩定的工作在就業困難導致經濟困境在當地當中就會是社會地位邊緣化"},{"start":28216.576,"end":28234.076,"text":"到我們國內來的時候目前有列管在案包括他後裔總共有16萬人但是還未處理的我相信國防部這邊也應該有列管有將近1萬多人所以本席現在是針對這1萬多個"},{"start":28236.358,"end":28253.734,"text":"沒有國籍在臺灣的人來發聲臺灣長期透過喬生回國生學教育吸引的海外所以我們的泰緬的喬生來臺所以這一群人很多是以學生的身份居留來臺過期之後他們就"},{"start":28256.076,"end":28281.105,"text":"回不去因為在那邊沒有身分證所以他也不能回去所以在他這邊他又因為這個學期也到所以變成了黑戶的困境所以在政府有曾經啟動3次的啟動專案最後一次所遺留下來的出谷也有超過1萬人根據監察院的報告為了因應這個制裁"},{"start":28282.626,"end":28306.365,"text":"太免的裝案我們曾經最後一次的開放只有兩天2008年的7月15號到16就兩天結果登記875人那這個案件涉及的政府機關很多國防部、僑委會、外交部、內政部的副政司、移民署所以光是機關依法要求說你要有出身證明"},{"start":28307.746,"end":28325.875,"text":"這件事情就這麼一個初步的一個政見非常的困難那時候的緬甸局勢是因內戰而動盪不安而且當時是有排華是幾乎是消滅式的排華在逃亡過程當中不可能有這些身份證的遺留"},{"start":28326.355,"end":28343.912,"text":"而且就人權的角度許多在泰民地區並未擁有國籍在台灣他又以非法身份拘留他們並不是惡意要規劃為台灣人民而是他們自己認定我就是中華人民共和國就是中華人民的我們台灣的這個國家的國人"},{"start":28347.093,"end":28366.353,"text":"好 這個也因為政府在戰亂當中國家開出的支票至今未兌現國家開出了什麼這個假撤退 真留守所以這群人說好啦我們這個不管是在蔣介石時代或者蔣經國時代我們就要撤退但是還是讓他們真正的留守在當地"},{"start":28366.813,"end":28389.588,"text":"所以真的是大概60%的人就是為國犧牲僅有3%的人能夠回到台灣對於他們身為台灣人民對於在國家認同的路上是非常艱辛的所以在我們孤軍的第一代已經逐漸的去世了第二代也接受在當地當中也接受中華民國的傳統教育"},{"start":28397.074,"end":28421.355,"text":"那包括呢在這個孤軍後裔啊他們都形容自己像流浪狗一樣只因為他沒有身份跟拘留證也沒有辦法享有健保在台灣他們的窘境是什麼從事黑工工資也常常被剝削例如工地的出工的日薪是1800他們卻只能拿到800塊那在也不敢向業主反映也因為怕被檢舉生病的時候"},{"start":28421.815,"end":28426.118,"text":"在我們台灣當中已經形成的一個區域的特色比如新北市的中華新街地區桃園中正新村眷村文化中橫的博旺社區高雄的美容金工社區"},{"start":28449.372,"end":28467.917,"text":"但是在相關他們沒有規劃國籍的後裔其實都散在這些區域當中好那這個一樣的故事兩樣其實在本辦所接觸的各個案例當中我就舉一個最明顯的一對兄妹同父同母妹妹是喬生的身份回國所以他獲得中華人"},{"start":28469.397,"end":28497.92,"text":"獲得中華民國公民的身份就是我們臺灣籍而哥哥就是以外籍的身份來就讀他是沒有辦法取得公民的身份那所以直到只能被遣返回去之後他就以外配的身份留在臺灣那現在也可以取得中華民國身份證可是他不願意因為他如果現在申請的話他的資格叫做外配可是這一位陳情人他說"},{"start":28498.22,"end":28498.64,"text":"議員長施政報告"},{"start":28516.952,"end":28516.972,"text":"院長"},{"start":28538.646,"end":28553.594,"text":"是的 在學生時代也看過《抑鬱》這本書啦當時也是看到熱血沸騰 非常感動那我所知道在112年我們做過一次的處理 行政做過一次處理那個結論其中一項就是"},{"start":28555.1,"end":28568.587,"text":"這是當時所做的決定已經是最終的處理所以比照97年的決議來做處理依照移民法 讓這些人進來所以本席才講說你願不願意評估評估啟動第4次我們現在看看第3次所做的這個決定為什麼是最終決定"},{"start":28577.392,"end":28599.988,"text":"小委會這邊有比較清楚﹖所以你願意﹖那如果說之後有新的狀況發生﹖那足以再讓我們啟動的話﹖現在本期就告訴你這個資料啦﹖還有1萬多人啊﹖1萬多人無國籍啊﹖來在台灣他現在就成為黑富王﹖他現在上班工作就是黑富王﹖拿著薪資少﹖就醫沒有權力﹖就學沒有權力﹖"},{"start":28602.029,"end":28617.067,"text":"那能不能依照112年所做的決定就是依照97年所做的決議依照這個移民法來做相關的處理院長我還是這樣您願不願把這邊還是交入評估因為他跨部會您主責一個政委"},{"start":28617.668,"end":28636.741,"text":"那我們認真的評估這樣的一個第4次或者也就是說你院長在任願意就是呢做事這樣的黑戶繼續在台灣生存讓他自生自滅沒有國籍沒有身分證沒有就醫權竟然我們容許台灣人權的國家容許這樣的狀況在台灣發繼續"},{"start":28638.422,"end":28639.142,"text":"委員 因為我們沒有看到這一萬多人的真實資料"},{"start":28654.628,"end":28671.951,"text":"那因為最後一次的專案處理到現在97年的原則都還是有效的那你願不願意做評估呢都還是有效我們都可以先了解這一萬多人的具體資料如果照委員現在所述那可能他現在叫做非法拘留的狀態"},{"start":28673.212,"end":28675.994,"text":"我只讓你評估,我沒有叫你一定要承諾本席喔"},{"start":28694.925,"end":28709.595,"text":"對於一個人權的國家我們怎麼可以容許我們自己認定為台灣人的一個國人他們回歸自己台灣的祖國竟然我們還做事是不是願意啟動第4次評估呢"},{"start":28709.735,"end":28710.155,"text":"跟委員報告事實上"},{"start":28739.027,"end":28765.903,"text":"這個國軍後裔證明他是第一部好 院長您願不願意啟動這樣第4次的專案 評估這個評估就是我們收集資料再跟委員請教還是秘書長還是你要讓國防部來做主責 我也沒意見但絕對不要是僑委會 對不起我沒有 僑委會國防部跟內政部 我們來手上的資料再跟委員請教 把委員的資料提供主軸單位是誰 我不想聯絡那麼多部會 主軸單位是誰"},{"start":28767.708,"end":28793.462,"text":"我們是不是如果是移民法我們請內政部內政部移民署做主責來跟委員把資料收集資料我們來對對看需要往後走我們就繼續看怎麼方式來處理所以你還不願意啟動第4次的評估先收集資料嗎這個就是一個過程我想院長您既然是國家的行政院長請你把格局拿高我本人實在很難忍受"},{"start":28794.142,"end":28809.407,"text":"我本期不能忍受一個人權自由民主的國家我們還容許有黑富在台灣而且他們重新就是認定我就是台灣人我要取得中華民國的國籍本期這個是人權民主的價值"},{"start":28811.048,"end":28822.283,"text":"委員我們不曉得這一萬多人已經在臺灣居留多久而且如果他們是在97年以前就進來的那表示你是要代替院長做這個評估嗎好 院長請回答"},{"start":28827.43,"end":28843.203,"text":"我剛跟委員報告過了我們請內政部把所有的資料所以你不願意做第4個評估先做收集資料這就是一個過程嘛就從這樣開始那如果這個資料收集出來確實這麼多人在這依照現在的法律依照現在的法律沒有辦法處理我們會進行以下的處理"},{"start":28843.889,"end":28859.785,"text":"好 那兩個月內 完成資料的收整 也請委員提供好的 兩個月內 請內政部來收整這樣的資料 好 以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林黛化委員的質詢 謝謝卓院長跟相關部會所長的備詢"},{"start":28865.806,"end":28894.132,"text":"辦委會本日排定質詢的委員均已經質詢完畢謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的列席答詢現在做以下決定下次會議進行經濟組織質詢我們現在繼續處理復議案本院民進黨黨團針對第二次會議報告事項第三案及第四案之決定提出復議請公決案現做以下決定"},{"start":28894.707,"end":28899.897,"text":"我們另定其處理報言會本次會議進行到此為止我們現在散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 - 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非常的困難那時候的緬甸局勢是因內戰而動盪不安而且當時是有排華是幾乎是消滅式的排華在逃亡過程當中不可能有這些身份證的遺留"},{"start":304.392,"end":321.468,"text":"而且就人權的角度許多在泰米地區並未擁有國籍在臺灣他又以非法身份居留他們並不是惡意要規劃為臺灣人民而是他們自己認定我就是中華人民共和國就是中華人民的我們臺灣的這個國家的國人"},{"start":325.114,"end":344.367,"text":"好 這個也因為政府在戰亂當中國家開出的支票至今未兌現國家開出了什麼這個假撤退真留守所以這群人說好啦我們這個不管是在蔣介石時代或者蔣經國時代我們就要撤退但是還是讓他們真正的留守在當地"},{"start":344.827,"end":374.027,"text":"所以真的是大概60%的人就是為國犧牲僅有3%的人能夠回到臺灣對於他們身為臺灣人民對於在國家認同路上是非常艱辛的所以在我們孤軍的第一代已經逐漸的去世了第二代也接受在當地當中也接受中華民國的傳統教育所以在當地他們是寫繁體文"},{"start":375.108,"end":389.624,"text":"那包括在這個孤軍後裔他們都形容自己像流浪狗一樣只是因為他沒有身份跟居留證也沒有辦法享有健保在台灣他們的窘境是什麼從事黑工工資也常常被剝削"},{"start":390.465,"end":407.979,"text":"例如工地的出工的日薪是1800他們卻只能拿到800塊那在也不敢向業主反映也因為怕被檢舉生病的時候也只能買成藥沒有錢也只能忍受痛苦所以在這疫情當中的疫苗他們是沒有辦法出來施打的"},{"start":408.539,"end":433.131,"text":"好我們合法的在我們已經規劃完成的在我們台灣當中已經形成的一個區域的特色比如新北市的中華新街地區桃園中正新村眷村文化中橫的博旺社區高雄的美容金工社區但是在相關他們沒有規劃國籍的後裔其實都散在這些區域當中"},{"start":433.931,"end":460.287,"text":"好那這個一樣的故事兩樣其實在本辦所接觸的各個案例當中我就舉一個最明顯的一對兄妹同父同母妹妹是喬生的身份回國所以他獲得中華人獲得中華民國國公民的身份就是我們台灣籍而哥哥呢就是以外籍的身份來就讀他是沒有辦法取得公民的身份那所以呢直到只能"},{"start":461.227,"end":484.273,"text":"被遷往北區之後他就以外配的身份留在臺灣那現在也可以取得中華民國身份證可是他不願意因為他如果現在申請的話他的資格叫做外配可是這位陳情人他說我就是中華民國的人我就是臺灣人我要拿到中華民國的國籍你看他那種堅定"},{"start":485.573,"end":509.271,"text":"以身為中華民國國籍這是他此生最重要的榮耀好這邊本期具體要求院長你願不願意在正式這樣的一個人權他們已經在臺灣還有1萬多人從1979年這個退役這個來臺之後到現在1萬多人這個是需要跨部會合作的願不願意啟動第4次的專案"},{"start":510.812,"end":531.632,"text":"辦理自台泰國緬甸地區國慶後裔入台事宜呢?院長是的,在學生時代也看過《抑鬱》這本書啦當時也是看到熱血沸騰,非常的感動那我所知道在112年我們做過一次的處理,行政做過一次處理那個結論其中一項就是"},{"start":533.138,"end":546.627,"text":"這次當時所做的決定已經是最終的處理所以比照97年的決議來做處理依照移民法 讓這些人進來所以本席才講說你願不願意評估評估啟動第4次我們現在看看第3次所做的這個決定為什麼是最終決定"},{"start":555.433,"end":577.988,"text":"小委會這邊有比較清楚﹖所以你願意﹖那如果說之後﹖所以你的意思﹖有新的狀況發生﹖那足以再讓我們啟動的話﹖現在本期就告訴你這個資料了﹖還有1萬多人﹖1萬多人無國籍﹖來在台灣﹖他現在就成為黑富王﹖他現在上班工作﹖就是黑富王﹖拿著薪資少﹖就醫沒有權力﹖就學沒有權力﹖"},{"start":580.049,"end":595.085,"text":"那能不能依照112年所做的決定就是依照97年所做的決議依照這個移民法來做相關的處理院長我還是這樣您願不願把這邊還是交入評估因為他跨部會您組著一個政委"},{"start":595.706,"end":614.779,"text":"那我們認真的評估這樣的一個第4次或者也就是說你院長在任願意就是呢做事這樣的黑戶繼續在台灣生存讓他自生自滅沒有國籍沒有身分證沒有就醫權竟然我們容許台灣人權的國家容許這樣的狀況在台灣發繼續"},{"start":616.44,"end":617.18,"text":"委員 因為我們沒有看到這一萬多人的真實資料"},{"start":632.668,"end":649.968,"text":"那因為最後一次的專案處理,到現在97年的原則都還是有效的那你願不願意再評估呢?都還是有效,我們可以先了解這一萬多人的具體資料,如果照委員現在所述,那可能他現在叫做非法拘留的狀態"},{"start":651.049,"end":654.672,"text":"現在要的就是院長你願不願意啟動評估我只讓你評估我沒有叫你一定要承諾本席喔"},{"start":672.885,"end":687.633,"text":"對於一個人權的國家我們怎麼可以容許我們自己認定為台灣人的一個國人他們回歸自己台灣的祖國竟然我們還做事是不是願意啟動第4次評估呢"},{"start":687.853,"end":688.193,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上"},{"start":717.068,"end":743.001,"text":"這個國軍後裔證明他是第一部院長您願不願意啟動這樣第4次的專案 評估這個評估就是我們收集資料 主責哪一個政委還是秘書長還是你要讓國防部來做主責 我也沒意見但絕對不要是僑委會 對不起 僑委會國防部跟內政部 我們來手上的資料再跟委員請教 把委員的資料提供我不想聯絡那麼多部會 主責單位是誰"},{"start":745.745,"end":771.485,"text":"我們是不是如果是移民法我們請內政部內政部移民署做主責來跟委員把資料收集資料我們來對對看需要往後走我們就繼續看怎麼方式來處理所以你還不願啟動第4次的評估先收集資料嗎這個就是一個過程我想院長您既然是國家的行政院長請你把格局拿高我本人實在很難忍受"},{"start":772.185,"end":787.467,"text":"我本期不能忍受一個人權自由民主的國家我們還容許有黑富在臺灣而且他們重新就是認定我就是臺灣人我要取得中華民國的國籍本期這個是人權民主的價值"},{"start":789.069,"end":800.304,"text":"委員我們不曉得這一萬多人已經在臺灣居留多久而且如果他們是在97年以前就進來的那表示你是要代替院長做這個評估嗎好 院長請回答"},{"start":805.39,"end":831.964,"text":"我剛跟委員報告過了我們請內政部把所有的資料所以你不願意做第4個評估先做收集資料這就是一個過程嘛就從這樣開始那如果這個資料收集出來確實這麼多人在這裡依照現在的法令依照現在的法令沒有辦法處理我們會進行以下的處理啊好 那兩個月內完成資料的收整我也把本辦公室想也請委員提供OK 兩個月內請內政部來收整這樣的資料好 以上謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:17:19 - 16:31:11","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155262","gazette":{"lineno":503,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（16時17分）主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝林委員。"],["林委員岱樺：院長，首先我真的要在這個正式的國會殿堂當中表達，我們國軍在這次救災當中全力支援，尤其是在這兩個月內重創高雄的颱風之後，在這邊我深深地一鞠躬感謝。","第二個，也針對剛才所發生的事故，我們士兵在訓練當中貫穿臉部而死亡，本席在這邊希望得到院長兩個承諾。第一個，趕快加速調查原因；第二個，後端的撫卹。我想現在也是家屬最難過的時候，部長怎麼來看本席的這兩個訴求？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，除了剛剛部長在這裡初步就手上的資料答復之外，我們會請空軍司令部做統一的調查跟說明，這個一定會給家屬跟社會清楚地交代，同時用這個事件，對於未來軍方在打靶訓練過程當中，如何做得更安全，當然是個重要的課題，我們會嚴肅地面對。"],["林委員岱樺：好，在撫卹的部分，願不願意在這裡也做個……在之後的報告、公開的公告上也做個說明呢？撫卹的部分。"],["顧部長立雄：撫卹我們當然會按照規定來，然後從優撫卹。"],["林委員岱樺：好，從優撫卹。","本席正式質詢孤軍後裔回國，國家的承諾不能再延遲。第一個，我針對亞細亞的孤兒（孤軍緣起）做個說明；第二個，孤軍在國外的狀況，跟國內在辦理國籍上的困境；最後，本席有具體的要求。","人權作家柏楊在「異域」書中有提到「一群被遺忘的人，他們戰死，便與草木同朽；他們戰勝，仍是天地不容」。這群人認定他是中華民國的國籍，可是卻不能回歸中華民國這個祖國。亞細亞的孤兒要追溯到1949年國共內戰失利，隨後在當地成立了一支非常特殊的軍事力量。當初撤退來臺一萬一千三百多人。在當地的社會當中，是受到歧視及排擠的，在當地也沒有辦法有他的身分，所以他們所面對的困境就是在當地的教育、醫療是嚴重受到限制的，因為他沒有正式的身分證，也因為沒有身分證，缺乏合法的工作機會，後裔家庭是生活貧困的，依賴低薪或不穩定的工作，就業困難導致經濟困境，在當地的社會地位邊緣化。","到我們國內來的，目前已列管在案的，包括其後裔，總共有16萬人，但是還未處理的，我相信國防部也應該有列管，有將近一萬多人，本席現在是針對這一萬多個在臺灣沒有國籍的人來發聲。臺灣長期透過「僑生回國升學教育政策」吸引海外華人，泰緬的僑生因此來臺，所以這一群人很多是以學生的身分來臺居留，過期之後，他們就回不去，因為在那邊沒有身分證，所以他也不能回去，在這邊他又因為學籍也到期，所以面臨變成黑戶的困境。政府曾經三次啟動專案，最後一次結束後所遺留下來的粗估也有超過1萬人。","根據監察院的報告，為了因應「滯台泰緬專案」，我們曾經最後一次開放辦理，只有2天，2008年7月15日到16日，就2天，結果登記875人。這個案件涉及的政府機關很多，國防部、僑委會、外交部、內政部戶政司及移民署，光是機關依法要求要有出生證明這件事情，就這麼一個初步的證件，非常的困難，那時候的緬甸局勢因內戰而動盪不安，而且當時有排華，幾乎是消滅式的排華，在逃亡過程當中，不可能有這些身分證遺留，而且就人權的角度，許多在泰緬地區並未擁有國籍，在臺灣他又以非法身分居留，他們並不是惡意要歸化為臺灣人民，而是他們自己認定就是我們臺灣這個國家的國人。","這個也是因為在戰亂當中國家開出了「支票」，至今未兌現，國家開出了什麼？「假撤退，真留守」，所以這群人不管是在蔣介石時代或者蔣經國時代，我們要撤退，但是還是讓他們真正的留守在當地，當中大概60%的人為國犧牲，僅有3%的人能夠回到臺灣，所以他們身為臺灣人民，在國家認同的路上是非常艱辛的。","我們孤軍的第一代已經逐漸去世了，第二代在當地也接受中華民國的傳統教育，所以在當地他們是寫繁體文。孤軍後裔都形容自己像流浪狗一樣，只因為他沒有身分及居留證，也沒有辦法享有健保，在臺灣他們的窘境是什麼？從事黑工，工資也常常被剝削，例如工地粗工的日薪是1,800，他們卻只能拿到800塊，也不敢向業主反映，因為怕被檢舉，生病的時候，也只能買成藥，沒有錢也只能忍受痛苦，所以在這個疫情當中的疫苗他們是沒有辦法出來施打的。","至於合法的，我們已經歸化完成的，孤軍在我們臺灣當中已經形成一個區域的特色，譬如新北市中和華新街地區、桃園忠貞新村眷村文化園區、中橫的博望社區、高雄的美濃精功社區，但是沒有歸化國籍的後裔其實都散在這些區域當中。","一樣的故事兩樣情，在本辦所接觸的各個案例當中，我就舉一個最明顯的，一對兄妹同父同母，妹妹是以僑生的身分回國，所以他獲得中華民國公民的身分，就是我們臺灣籍；而哥哥就是以外籍的身分來就讀，他沒有辦法取得公民的身分，直到被遣返回去之後，他就以外配的身分留在臺灣，現在也可以取得中華民國身分證了，可是他不願意，因為他如果現在申請的話，他的資格叫做外配，可是這一位陳情人他說，我就是中華民國的人，我就是臺灣人，我要拿到中華民國的國籍。你看他這種堅定，以身為中華民國國籍為他此生最重要的榮耀。","這邊本席具體要求，院長，你願不願意正視這樣的人權？在臺灣還有一萬多人，從1979年來臺之後到現在還有一萬多人，這個是需要跨部會合作的，請問願不願意啟動第四次的專案，辦理滯臺泰國緬甸地區國軍後裔入臺事宜呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：在學生時代我也看過異域這本書，當時也是看到熱血沸騰，非常的感動。我所知道在112年我們做過一次處理，那個結論的其中一項就是當時所做的結論已經是最終的處理，所以比照97年的決議來做處理，依照移民法讓這些人能夠進來。"],["林委員岱樺：院長，在您收到的112年前，這是第三次，所以本席才講，你願不願意評估啟動第四次？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在看看第三次所做的這個決定為什麼是最終決定，僑委會這邊有比較清楚的……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你的意思……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果之後有新的狀況發生，足以再讓我們啟動的話，我們再來研議。"],["林委員岱樺：現在本席就告訴你這個資料，還有一萬多人無國籍，在臺灣他現在就成為黑戶，他現在上班、工作就是黑戶，拿的薪資少，就醫沒有權利，就學沒有權利。"],["卓院長榮泰：那能不能依照112年所做的決定，就是依照97年所做的決議，依照移民法來做相關的處理，讓他們個案處理？"],["林委員岱樺：院長，我還是這樣，您願不願還是把這邊交入評估？因為它跨部會，您主責一個政委，我們認真的評估是否啟動第四次，否則就是你院長在任坐視這樣的黑戶繼續在臺灣生存，讓他自生自滅，沒有國籍、沒有身分證、沒有就醫權，臺灣是人權的國家，竟然容許這樣的狀況在臺灣，就坐視他在臺灣的現狀嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是否依照移民法相關的法律現在沒有辦法個案處理，我們請……"],["林委員岱樺：所以才要第四次的專案，當然沒有辦法依個案。"],["卓院長榮泰：我要了解一下是不是沒有辦法處理。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，因為我們沒有看到這一萬多人的真實資料，而最後一次的專案處理到現在，97年的原則都還是有效的。"],["林委員岱樺：那你願不願意評估呢？我們都有接到……"],["徐委員長佳青：都還是有效，我們可不可以先了解這一萬多人的具體資料，如果照委員現在所述，可能他現在叫做非法居留的狀態。"],["林委員岱樺：是。"],["徐委員長佳青：可是在97年的專案處理當中，當時已經有兩千五百多人來申請，然後有申請的人高達九成五以上都……"],["林委員岱樺：我現在要的就是，院長，你願不願意啟動評估？我只讓你評估，我沒有叫你一定要承諾本席喔！對於一個人權的國家，我們怎麼可以容許自己認定為臺灣人的一個國人要回歸自己臺灣的祖國，竟然我們還坐視，是不是願意啟動第四次評估呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會請僑委會，甚至國防部，蒐集現在的狀況，也再請問……"],["林委員岱樺：為什麼我說國防部重要？因為如果這個專案開始的話，他必須先取得國防部的國軍後裔證明，這才是第一步，後續才有內政部、僑委會、移民署等等相關單位，如果這個專案不啟動，在國防部他就不可能拿到國軍後裔的證明。"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，事實上，這個國軍後裔證明是第一步，但是……"],["林委員岱樺：院長，您願不願意啟動第四次的專案評估？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個評估就是我們蒐集資料，跟委員請教你手上的資料，我們來對對看……"],["林委員岱樺：主責哪一個政委，還是秘書長？還是你要讓國防部來做主責，我也沒意見，但絕對不要是僑委會，對不起，我沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：僑委會、國防部跟內政部，我們拿手上的資料，再跟委員請教，把委員的資料提供，我們再來……"],["林委員岱樺：主責單位是誰？我不想聯絡那麼多部會，主責單位是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是移民法，我們請內政部好了。"],["林委員岱樺：內政部移民署做主責？"],["卓院長榮泰：來跟委員蒐集資料，我們來對對看，需要往後走的，我們就繼續看要用怎麼方式來處理。"],["林委員岱樺：所以你還不願意啟動第四次的評估，先蒐集資料嗎？蒐集資料……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個過程啦！"],["林委員岱樺：院長，你既然是國家的行政院長，請你把格局拿高，本人實在很難忍受、本席不能忍受一個人權自由民主的國家還容許有黑戶在臺灣，而且他們從心就是認定我就是臺灣人，我要取得中華民國的國籍。這個是人權民主的價值，所以院長，你願不願意啟動第四次的評估？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們不曉得這一萬多人已經在臺灣居留多久，而且如果他們是在……"],["林委員岱樺：主委，所以要再評估。"],["徐委員長佳青：他們如果是在97年以前就進來的，那表示他們當時……"],["林委員岱樺：所以主委，你要代替院長做這個評估嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，我只是在陳述……"],["林委員岱樺：好，院長，請回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛跟委員報告過了，我們請內政部把所有的資料跟你的……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你不願意做第四次的評估，而是先蒐集資料？"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是一個過程嘛，就是這樣開始。"],["林委員岱樺：對啊，所以要找誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果這個資料蒐集起來確實這麼多人在這裡，依照現在的法律……"],["林委員岱樺：好，那什麼時候完成這樣的資料蒐整？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照現在的法律沒有辦法處理的話，我們會進行以下的處理，如果現在是這樣……"],["林委員岱樺：好，兩個月內完成資料的蒐整，我也會把本辦公室相關的……"],["卓院長榮泰：也請委員提供。"],["林委員岱樺：OK，兩個月內請內政部來蒐整這樣的資料。以上，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長的列席答詢。現在作以下決定：下次會議進行經濟組之質詢。","現在繼續處理復議案。","本院民進黨黨團針對第2次會議報告事項第三案及第四案之決定提出復議，請公決案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議議事日程報告事項第3案委員翁曉玲等23人\n擬具「憲法訴訟法第三十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、第4案委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「國家\n通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」案，院會所作決定，提出復議。是否有當，敬請\n公決─ 另定期處理─","agenda_id":"1137701_00008"}}},{"date":"2024-10-08","影片長度":"00:16:36","end_time":"2024-10-08T16:17:07+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155261","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","duration":996,"start_time":"2024-10-08T16:00:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/390522a1d83d95e60de5fc31f7f741bd0d4fddf3c76ddd4196037c2b4844cef679b3b4799e39af955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.809093750000002,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.93971875,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.00659375,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.39034375,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.44909375,"end":25.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.13784375,"end":45.947843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.85909375,"end":47.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.922218750000006,"end":48.900968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.59284375,"end":50.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.91346875,"end":51.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.38159375,"end":51.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.49971875,"end":51.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.32659375,"end":55.29659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.971593750000004,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.90346875,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.64596875,"end":66.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.05846875,"end":68.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.91346875,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.70659375000001,"end":78.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.58409375000001,"end":114.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.64159375000001,"end":117.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.91971875,"end":125.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.91846875,"end":129.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.56346875,"end":132.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.49971875,"end":134.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.22096875,"end":134.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.09846875,"end":136.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.17409375,"end":138.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.59159375000002,"end":139.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.58721875,"end":141.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.08471875,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.44721875000002,"end":146.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.59034375000002,"end":151.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.37034375000002,"end":168.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.38034375,"end":168.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.44346875000002,"end":181.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.53846875000002,"end":190.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.55034375000002,"end":188.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.75659375,"end":189.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.22909375,"end":192.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.79846875,"end":198.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.58284375000002,"end":195.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.47284375,"end":228.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.02096875,"end":199.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.96971875000003,"end":236.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.72846875000002,"end":235.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.97721875000002,"end":237.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.68159375000002,"end":243.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.30534375000002,"end":243.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.04346875000002,"end":246.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.64221875,"end":255.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.88971875000001,"end":263.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.97721875,"end":264.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.12471875,"end":268.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.25471875,"end":269.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.65534375000004,"end":281.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.78471875,"end":279.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.86909375,"end":279.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.47659375,"end":294.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.07784375,"end":311.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.43159375000005,"end":301.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.24971875,"end":301.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.94846875,"end":323.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.50784375,"end":353.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.47784375000003,"end":374.28471875},{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您當特兵嗎對 那我想我這個部分現在沒有辦法有一個說但是基本上來講他都會有一線二線然後會有準備"},{"start":254.94,"end":257.184,"text":"T91鋪槍打靶射擊,從打靶到清槍的SOP"},{"start":270.738,"end":297.684,"text":"打碼的應該他就是第一線那我想詳細的SOP我坦誠跟委員報告我沒有辦法現在好您是新任的部長但是這些SOP您應該要了解因為呢我給您一些時間因為您不是軍人的部長出身但是我必須也很坦誠的告訴你這是一個國防部長應該最基本要了解的"},{"start":298.544,"end":310.735,"text":"然後國軍向我反映今天有國軍向我反映他說每一次打靶的時候他都很害怕因為清槍的人第一很多人沒有按照程序來"},{"start":311.971,"end":312.191,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":333.288,"end":353.087,"text":"人既然是非自然死亡我認為也應該請檢調一起進來查核而且這不是單一士兵的擔憂是許多軍人都有的共同恐懼國防部應該要全面的改善跟檢討打法槍支以及槍支檢查的SOP部長可以做到嗎"},{"start":353.587,"end":370.474,"text":"是我想委員的指教是對的我想我下去之後根據這個事件我會要求全面的釐清相關事情這個不幸事件發生的經過那整個您剛剛提到的整個SOP他有沒有做到那應有的SOP是什麼"},{"start":371.309,"end":391.987,"text":"我移情之後再跟委員做一個詳細的報告好那接下來兩位也都請留步首先我們要來請教的是PDA總統的提用權也就是美國免費的提供臺灣軍事援助我們是不用出錢的本來是美式一樁這個院長應該也非常的清楚"},{"start":393.249,"end":407.183,"text":"去年7月底美國白宮首度宣布要動用PDA美國總統提用權對台灣軍事價值提供3.45億美元也就是110億台幣的裝備這聽起來非常的美好"},{"start":411.247,"end":439.996,"text":"但是在今年的9月11號美國白宮他們也在國防部的檢查總長發出的針對美國國防部用的總統提用權提供給臺灣裝備之追蹤監察評估報告裡面說明了這些PDA裝備沒有進行有效的品質管理你可以看到上面發布的單位是美國的Inspector General那請問一下我先問一下卓院長"},{"start":440.816,"end":442.218,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":452.17,"end":480.133,"text":"他們有跟我做過相關的簡報OK做簡報好那既然是這樣的話齁那我先問一下院長齁因為這題是院長的要確認一下院長對國政是否瞭解那請部長先稍等一下這3.45億的PDA項目目前有多少抵達台灣了這個應該是要問部長要先問你等一下會問他這個我真的你不確定這個我不會每天去問多少進度在這裡好那個部長"},{"start":482.374,"end":487.618,"text":"我問的是多少比例已經來到臺灣了?3.45億的第一批我們正在跟美國的國安部互相協調我們在跟美國的國安部在協調3.45億的第一批100%已經抵達臺灣了報告裡面都有寫"},{"start":509.412,"end":524.51,"text":"報告裡面都有寫來我們看一下那你一定就也不知道3.451裡面的第一批貨送往臺灣的時間點在什麼時候吧因為前面一個問題你都不知道了後面一個問題顯然你也不知道沒關係那我直接告訴大家"},{"start":526.031,"end":546.895,"text":"頭兩架飛機飛來台灣是在去年的12月底左右那這個騎乘是去年的12月底一路到今年的3月中這是第一批美國的PDA他開始提供台灣軍軍事的支援從去年的12月到今年的3月中左右的這一段時間那一共就是110億元的軍事協助"},{"start":550.856,"end":571.025,"text":"但是我們從去年底到3月中左右收到的第一批PDA的軍備卻是長這樣我們看一下各種發霉或是受潮的情況請問國防部是在省的時候知道PDA的軍備我們所收到的有這樣子受損跟發霉的損壞這件事情的"},{"start":571.305,"end":571.645,"text":"請問如何處理?"},{"start":595.776,"end":596.856,"text":"我們看一下那個站板的圖片好不好"},{"start":625.728,"end":650.653,"text":"讓這個部長那個對他是這樣子一箱一箱運進來的你可以看到這個圖片他是這樣一箱一箱運進來的那因為那個底下一個一個的站板我們用那個站板來做計算的話他這個一塊一塊的站板他就是一箱一箱的運那請問一下以這個站板的數量來做計算的話請問國防部知道有多少的比例是有受潮的情況嗎"},{"start":652.165,"end":653.146,"text":"可是他是一個公開的報告呀"},{"start":682.685,"end":698.129,"text":"對那這一個部分呢只是在其中的我只能告訴你就是說67%我不想浪費時間了我現在所說的東西都不是秘密他是公開在網路上可以看到的美國公開的報告67%的"},{"start":702.15,"end":720.66,"text":"這樣子運過來的產品他都是受潮的我們接下來繼續看如果您講的是黃蛋背信的話黃蛋背信我們接受原證的這個項目有好幾萬到十幾萬件不等只有4000餘件是受潮發明的狀況"},{"start":722.561,"end":747.203,"text":"我講防彈背信的部分是這樣子彈的部分大概您提到的大概是就是說有些是期限的問題但是我跟您提就是說傳統的彈藥是批號彈藥裡面它其實並沒有期限問題所以它還是要經過檢診之後算是堪不堪用經過檢診之後還是可以堪用的所以最重要的是抗彈板的部分你們要確定絕對不能再用了"},{"start":747.563,"end":768.514,"text":"因為呢 其實像防彈衣 抗彈板 子彈跟搬用機槍的部分都很多有受潮 損毀 發霉跟包裝不良的用品所以它被局部公開了接下來 國軍確實花了數週整理烘乾跟庫存受損的軍品我想請問 我們國軍針對這一批受損的"},{"start":772.576,"end":799.01,"text":"PDA裝備我們有沒有花經費來做處理處置跟委員報告我想我們已經我剛剛已經已經有透露一些我們接受了一些狀況但是我不想我不覺得我應該要再進一步就每一項的品項跟跟委員在不是每一項就是整體而言我現在要說明的就是剛剛已經說了是少量的狀況有"},{"start":799.991,"end":801.112,"text":"很少量嗎美國國防部光是他們自己在回收這批東西花了2405個小時花了62萬美金"},{"start":819.071,"end":843.039,"text":"也花了另外11萬美金去更換105個防彈板跟3件戰術背心然後這是還沒有運到台灣的部分那我們台灣也花了好幾個禮拜針對受潮發媒的PDA裝備進行拆包乾燥跟盤點而且根據報告裡面來說我們國軍是有出資的我想請問我們花了多少錢在"},{"start":843.999,"end":849.85,"text":"免費的最貴的這件事情上面是用自動支了哪一筆的預算來做相關的盤整"},{"start":851.606,"end":874.619,"text":"我覺得我要跟委員報告我們接受的您剛也提到了這個公開的資料顯示它這是110億的一個這麼大的一個款項接受的這個項目跟時間我們認為是屬於機密不宜公開那其中有四千餘件是受潮方面的這個狀況我們本身應用我們自己既有的這個維持的這個"},{"start":877.682,"end":881.844,"text":"那請問這些受潮損壞的東西會被計算在第一批的3.45億美元的PDA扣打裡面嗎?沒有沒有 有些不堪用退回去了"},{"start":899.664,"end":901.946,"text":"我剛剛已經告訴你了,我們回到那個白皮書那一頁紫色的那一頁"},{"start":913.55,"end":939.97,"text":"我剛已經告訴你了是Inspector General他們美國的檢察院的這公開的報告我剛有問你們有沒有看過一位告訴我說有向林檢報過一位告訴我說你們知情然後知道有這樣子的一個說明我所有剛剛提出的每一個內容每一個都是從報告裡面的公開資訊你們不要自己沒有看報告的細節跟內容然後就說這個是秘密"},{"start":940.45,"end":941.191,"text":"我們是依照我們接收的狀況來跟委員做報告"},{"start":970.43,"end":982.215,"text":"最後我們向你們所知我們在驗貨的時候我們是由美方押運人員與國防部負責簽收報關及出關作業但在他們的調查裡面是"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"16:00:31 - 16:17:07","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155261","gazette":{"lineno":412,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（16時1分）謝謝院長。我們有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：院長好。我第一個想問的是國家級警報在2024年1月9號大選前曾經發布過，那時候還把衛星寫成飛彈，造成了人民的恐慌。這次在雙十國慶的前夕，不僅不具名的國安高層放了消息告訴大家，大陸準備要進行環臺的軍演，國防部也發了新聞稿說明對方將在雙十國慶發布會經過我國ADIZ的衛星，請問這次會發布國家級警報嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：先跟委員報告，您說的第一次在1月份的那個警報，確實在用詞上不夠精準。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：我想各個相關單位也做了事後的檢討，已經有相當的改進，我想未來這種事情不至於發生。至於說現在在國慶之前，在臺灣海峽上面，確實這段時間以來都有一些大大小小的，各種中國海空軍的演習，是真的！我們也充分掌握各種動向，我還是認為對國家的安全沒有妨礙，對人民的安心，我們要讓人民感覺到國家是可靠的。"],["徐委員巧芯：同意！目前國防部已經發布，知道10月10號國慶日當天的時候會有一個火箭通過臺灣的ADIZ上空，請問當天我們會有發布國家級警報這樣子的規劃嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["顧部長立雄：就我們現在所獲得的情資理解，它是由西昌發射之後，往西太平洋的方向飛行，會經過我們臺灣的防空識別區，但在經過我們這裡的時候，高度應該已經到卡門線。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以不會嘛！所以沒有預計……"],["顧部長立雄：就卡門線……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，沒有預計發布就對了！"],["顧部長立雄：但是我們仍然會應用各種情監偵手段來掌握整個彈道方向。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，瞭解，知道，確定了喔！","接下來要問的是顧部長，剛才您已經證實在清泉崗基地發生的悲劇是有一名士兵身亡，令人感到遺憾！但是這個過程也非常的懸疑，到目前為止都沒有辦法確認該員中槍的原因是什麼，是自戕？是操作不當？還是被流彈打到？所以我想請部長現場替我們說明空軍執行T91步槍的打靶射擊，從打靶到清槍的SOP是什麼。"],["顧部長立雄：我想細節的部分，我現在也沒有辦法詳細的回答。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼？為什麼不能詳細的回答？"],["顧部長立雄：因為你問的等於是打靶流程的SOP嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！您當過兵嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：對，我想這個部分我現在沒有辦法有一個說……但是基本上來講，它都會有一線、二線，然後會有準備，就我現在相關的理解，他是在二線的準備當中，也許在這個過程當中有一些……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是T91步槍的打靶射擊，從打靶到清槍的SOP。"],["顧部長立雄：應該他就是第一線。我想，詳細的SOP我坦誠跟委員報告，我沒有辦法現在跟委員做詳細的……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，您是新任的部長，但是這些SOP您應該要瞭解。我給您一些時間，因為您不是軍人出身的部長，但是我也必須很坦誠地告訴你，這是一個國防部長最基本應該要瞭解的。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員指教，我下去瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：今天有國軍向我反映，他說每一次打靶的時候他都很害怕，因為清槍的人第一，很多人沒有按照程序來，卡彈時的安全，軍官以為處理好了，結果槍枝還是故障，有時候是檢查的人有問題，有時候根本就是槍枝故障、有問題。所以這邊要特別跟部長來拜託，調查的時候請不要只推給士兵，說他不清楚流程、是自己的疏失。人既然是非自然死亡，我認為也應該請檢調一起進來查核，而且這不是單一士兵的擔憂，是許多軍人都有的共同恐懼，國防部應該要全面地改善跟檢討打靶槍枝以及槍枝檢查的SOP，部長，可以做到嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我想委員的指教是對的，我下去之後會根據這個事件要求全面釐清相關事情和這個不幸事件發生的經過。您剛剛提到的，整個SOP他有沒有做到？應有的SOP是什麼？我釐清之後就來跟委員做一個詳盡的報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：接下來本席首先要請教的是PDA（美國總統提用權），也就是美國免費提供臺灣軍事援助，我們是不用出錢的。這本來是美事一樁，院長應該也非常清楚。去年7月底，美國白宮首度宣布要動用PDA（美國總統提用權），對臺灣軍事提供價值3.45億美元，也就是110億臺幣的裝備，這聽起來非常的美好，但是在今年的9月11日，美國白宮也在……國防部監察長發出的「美國國防部用『總統提用權』供給台灣裝備之追蹤及監察評估報告」裡面，說明這些PDA裝備沒有進行有效的品質管理；你可以看到上面發布的單位是美國的Inspector General。我先問一下卓院長，您有看過這份報告嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：詳細的報告內容我沒有全部看到，但是知道這個過程。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好。部長，請問您有看過這份報告嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：他們有跟我做過相關的簡報。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，做簡報，好。","既然是這樣的話，我先問一下院長，因為這一題是院長的，要確認一下院長對國政是否瞭解。請部長先稍等一下。","這3.45億的PDA項目，目前有多少抵達臺灣了？"],["卓院長榮泰：這應該是要問部長才……"],["徐委員巧芯：我要先問你，等一下再問他。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我真的……"],["徐委員巧芯：你不確定？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不會每天去問多少進度。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，部長？"],["顧部長立雄：我想詳細的品項基於臺美之間的默契，關於……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是多少比例已經來到臺灣了？3.45億的第一批。"],["顧部長立雄：我們正在跟美國的國防部互相協調……"],["徐委員巧芯：錯！百分之百已經抵達臺灣了！"],["顧部長立雄：我們在跟美國的國防部協調相關PDA的……"],["徐委員巧芯：錯！百分之百已經抵達臺灣了！"],["顧部長立雄：相關的這些PDA……"],["徐委員巧芯：3.45億的第一批百分之百已經抵達臺灣了！報告裡面都有寫、報告裡面都有寫！","來，我們看一下，那你一定也不知道3.45億裡面的第一批貨送往臺灣的時間點在什麼時候吧？因為前面一個問題你都不知道了，後面一個問題顯然你也不知道。","沒關係，我直接告訴大家，頭2架飛機飛來臺灣是在去年的12月底左右，這個期程是去年的12月底一路到今年的3月中，這是第一批美國的PDA開始提供臺灣軍事支援，從去年的12月到今年的3月中左右的這一段時間，一共就是110億元的軍事協助，但是我們從去年底到3月中左右收到的第一批PDA軍備卻是長這樣！我們看一下，有各種發霉或是受潮的情況。請問國防部是在什麼時候知道PDA的軍備，我們所收到的有這樣子受損跟發霉的損壞這件事情的？"],["顧部長立雄：我們在接收的時候當然就已經知道有這樣子的狀況，我們也立即反映給美方，然後雙方要共同檢視來進行檢整。"],["徐委員巧芯：是的，後來呢？你們在第一時間就向美方要求說明，然後後來呢？"],["顧部長立雄：後面大家就來進行共同的檢整。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，請問如何處理？"],["顧部長立雄：檢整之後就要去檢查這些防彈背心，跟您提到的這些彈藥本身還是不是堪用，我們最後檢整的結果，還是堪用。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們看一下……"],["顧部長立雄：不過在程序上，我們認為他在交運的這個程序的過程當中，有這樣的疏失，我們還是要求要改正。"],["徐委員巧芯：好的，了解。我們看一下那個棧板的圖片，好不好？它是這樣子一箱一箱運進來的，你可以看到這個圖片，這樣一箱一箱運進來的，因為那個底下一個一個的棧板，我們用那個棧板來計算的話，這個一塊一塊的棧板，就是一箱一箱的運。請問一下，以這個棧板的數量來計算的話，請問國防部知道有多少的比例是有受潮的情況嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：就我了解，有關輕兵器彈藥混雜在原封箱跟零頭彈，產製的這個年份從72年到108年不等，總計是……我想詳細的數字，我覺得……"],["徐委員巧芯：你也不知道？因為你們都沒有看報告。"],["顧部長立雄：我知道，但是我不認為我應該要在這個公開的場合說，大概是……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是它是一個公開的報告呀！"],["顧部長立雄：對，這一個部分只是占其中的……我只能告訴你……"],["徐委員巧芯：67%。我不想浪費時間了，我現在所說的東西都不是秘密，它是公開在網路上可以看到的，美國公開的報告，這樣子運過來的產品，67%都是受潮的。我們接下來繼續看……"],["顧部長立雄：如果您講的是防彈背心，我們接受援贈的項目有好幾萬到十幾萬件不等，只有四千餘件是受潮、發霉的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，所以嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：防彈背心的部分是這樣，有關子彈的部分，您提到的大概就是有些是期限的問題，但是我跟您提，傳統的彈藥、批號彈藥裡面，其實並沒有期限問題，所以它還是要經過檢整之後，看算是堪不堪用，經過檢整之後還是堪用的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，所以最重要的是抗彈板的部分，你們要確定絕對不能再用了。因為其實像防彈衣、抗彈板、子彈跟班用機槍的部分，很多都有受潮、損毀、發霉跟包裝不良的用品，所以它被局部公開了。接下來，國軍確實花了數週整理、烘乾跟庫存受損的軍品。我想請問國軍針對這一批受損的PDA裝備，我們有沒有花經費來處理、處置？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我剛剛已經有透露一些我們接收的狀況，但是我不覺得我應該要再進一步就每一項的品項跟委員在公開的場合做簡報。"],["徐委員巧芯：不，不是每一項，就是整體而言。"],["顧部長立雄：我現在要說明的就是，剛剛已經說了，是少量的有狀況，經過跟美方反映，也共同來檢整之後，我們認為是堪用的，這個就是運用我們自己本身的……"],["徐委員巧芯：很少量嗎？美國國防部光是他們自己在回收這一批東西，花了2,405個小時，花了62萬美金，也花了另外11萬美金去更換105個防彈板跟3件戰術背心，這是還沒有運到臺灣的部分。我們臺灣也花了好幾個禮拜，針對受潮、發霉的PDA裝備，進行拆包、乾燥跟盤點，而且根據報告裡面來說，我們國軍是有出資的。我想請問我們花了多少錢在「免費的最貴」的這件事情上面？又是動支了哪一筆的預算來做相關的盤整？"],["顧部長立雄：我覺得我要跟委員報告，我們所接收的，您剛剛也提到了，這個公開的資料顯示這是110億這麼大的一個款項，接收的項目跟時間，我們認為是屬於機密，不宜公開。"],["徐委員巧芯：這是美國公開的。"],["顧部長立雄：其中只有四千餘件是受潮發霉的狀況，我們本身運用自己既有的維持的能量就可以將這些東西加以檢整，鑑定是不是還足以堪用。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問這些受潮損壞的東西會被計算在第一批3.45億美元的PDA quota裡面嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為它還是堪用啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有、沒有，有些不堪用的退回去了。我說退回去的部分就已經算在裡面，還是會重新再送回來？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我不曉得您資訊的來源是哪裡。"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛已經告訴你了，我們回到白皮書的那一頁，也就是紫色的那一頁。我剛剛已經告訴你了，這是Inspector General，他們美國監察院公開的報告，我剛剛也問你們有沒有看過，一位告訴我說有向您簡報過，一位告訴說你們知情，知道有這樣子的說明。我剛剛所提出的每一個內容都是來自報告裡面的公開資訊，你們不要自己沒有看報告的細節跟內容就說這個是秘密，這個沒有，這是網路上都能查得到的事情。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們是依照我們接收的狀況來跟委員報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：我接收到的狀況也沒有錯啊！來自於美方的報告也沒有錯啊！我時間真的很不夠，最後來看一下最後一張好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：因為美方報告裡面提到的不一定是已經交運給我們的，我現在是講我們已經接收的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，我提到的都是已經交運的部分。來，看最後一張……"],["顧部長立雄：我們接收的狀況才是我們真實面對的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：這上面寫到的都是我們接收的狀況，它是根據來到臺灣的PDA所做的整個調查。","最後，我們向你們索資，我們在驗貨的時候，是由美方押運人員與國防部負責簽收報關及出關作業，但在他們的調查裡面是被非美方的承包商接手給國防部，請問兩方的說法哪一方是正確的？"],["顧部長立雄：您現在講的是指……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒關係，下次再問，時間到了，不好意思，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第4號林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議議事日程報告事項第3案委員翁曉玲等23人\n擬具「憲法訴訟法第三十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、第4案委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「國家\n通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」案，院會所作決定，提出復議。是否有當，敬請\n公決─ 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國防部部長麻煩請國防部部長備選國軍是不是螺絲鬆了今天下午2點半在清泉崗"},{"start":43.211,"end":69.424,"text":"防空 空軍防空器這個指揮部中心裡面發生一個死亡案件這個是在信念的過程裡面子彈貫穿了下耳子彈從下耳裡面貫穿了這個臉結果後來送醫之後送醫不治死亡了"},{"start":70.546,"end":92.044,"text":"在信念的過程我曾經待過那個單位我們在以前叫空軍防砲防砲的一個信念營那個地方我們曾經受信的時候非常嚴格不管在任志作戰包含信念基礎的基本動作都非常嚴格"},{"start":93.275,"end":102.086,"text":"現在反觀現在你看看我們很多的這一些自殺案件軍中裡面的這一些狀況包含剛剛發生的"},{"start":105.205,"end":106.266,"text":"今天我想請教國金"},{"start":135.083,"end":151.836,"text":"的戰備戰力是不是鬆了那你對這個死亡的感想如何跟委員報告我剛剛也是接到司令跟我報告就這個部分當然感到也非常沉痛"},{"start":152.674,"end":181.26,"text":"那發生這樣不幸的意外那現在有關進一步的這個因為這個是在打靶訓練的過程當中發生的當然啦那有關這個整個過程是如何那他們現在正在調閱這個監視錄影帶那正在釐清事實當中那等事實釐清之後再跟委員來做一個進一步的報告那我想我們"},{"start":182.188,"end":182.629,"text":"所以今天我們講的"},{"start":195.646,"end":216.606,"text":"我們常常講說我們在這一次裡面的國防預算是最高6400多億買武器縱然是對我們國際的戰力戰備絕對有效但是現在的士兵的換算包含要自願意的現在已經減少的將近6成以上"},{"start":217.347,"end":242.391,"text":"因為他們不願意當兵為什麼他寧可說我寧可在社會上工作我也不願意當兵那現在自願意的少之又少甚至他義務的也不願意去冒這個風險但是他必須要盡國家之義務那往往產生了什麼在訓練的過程包含這些"},{"start":242.927,"end":243.247,"text":"麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":272.805,"end":276.652,"text":"黃委員那個國防部長還要備詢還是 要 國防部委員請留下黃委員好我們現在講的是一個"},{"start":286.943,"end":287.083,"text":"主國論的問題主國論問題"},{"start":316.148,"end":326.561,"text":"現在談論這個祖國論我們賴總統拋出了這個祖國論的論調我們看一下大陸到現在為什麼沒有任何反應"},{"start":328.787,"end":354.317,"text":"沒有任何反應倒是我們不具名的國安據說國安高層透過管道放這個消息警告國人那大陸準備還台經驗到底是誰在地協力者那另外就是這顯然有自導自演的一個現象那今天討論這個祖國論"},{"start":356.935,"end":376.56,"text":"對岸沒有任何反應我再請教雙數國慶即將來臨我們今天期待我們賴總統在對國人跟國際的這一些論述的話是不是又挑起這個祖國人挑起兩岸之間的神經"},{"start":378.26,"end":396.528,"text":"那院長也回答一下希望也能夠賴總統聽到國人的期盼是希望和諧兩岸之間的和平而不是挑起待會我要問部長談非論來也回答一下"},{"start":397.982,"end":422.016,"text":"報告委員總統過幾天在雙十國慶上面的講話當然不是我現在預先就能夠知道要講什麼話的但是從前一個晚上10月5號晚上國慶晚會上總統說中華民國是我們的祖國這句話邏輯一定沒有錯而且從歷史的事實看來中華民國存在113年這個歷史也沒有錯"},{"start":425.267,"end":451.268,"text":"他的結論是中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個結論也沒有錯其實這個就是挑起了兩岸的神經講本國就好了嘛為什麼一定要講祖國論對不對我們很多在祖國論是他們的對岸的議題不是我們台灣中華民國的國家裡面所講的祖國論當然"},{"start":453.061,"end":479.836,"text":"為什麼一定要攤在陽光下雙子國慶要來臨了是不是又挑起一個意識形態要加以論述告訴給國際告訴給國人我們是不是自己在自導自演嚇住我們自己的國人沒有自導自演的這個狀況因為除了我剛剛講的三個沒有錯之外我們也希望"},{"start":480.715,"end":483.237,"text":"團結我們一定是團結的待會我要談的是另外賴總統所提的我先談一個國際危機組織你有沒有聽過這個組織"},{"start":509.516,"end":534.789,"text":"國際危機組織他是非營利的單位他是站在一個國際中立的論述講出了一段話講什麼話就是在報告說賴總統當選之後大陸已軟化的作詞有意是賴政府更容易表達出改善兩岸關係"},{"start":536.994,"end":555.166,"text":"的意向但是賴總統以強硬的立場應對北京加劇了緊張的局勢國際會自我約束但國際危機組織的報告裡面卻告訴了我們台灣的政客卻挑釁或升高其勢請問"},{"start":558.38,"end":584.789,"text":"這個就是國際危機組織裡面所表達的因為在國際間他是認同這個國際危機組織的這個非營利的單位所表達的論述所以這個就是一個很明白的站在一個中立但是對我們國內來講我們常常會講一些意識形態的議題那部長你的看法勒"},{"start":586.204,"end":606.516,"text":"我想總統的態度應該也都是在維持台海整個乃至於整個印太區域和平的這個觀點來從事相關的一個論述我們沒有無意要挑釁那跟委員報告我想您也可以看到每天共機擾"},{"start":608.818,"end":628.369,"text":"這個進行這個軍事的恫嚇來越過中線洗澡然後軍艦然後在我們的臺海的周邊來環繞這個部分進行這樣挑釁迫害臺海乃至印太區域和平包括在南海跟東海這個都看得出來是中國在做我們沒有在製造這個挑釁的作為"},{"start":629.355,"end":655.821,"text":"我想賴總統描述的也是一個客觀的事實也沒有在做任何挑釁的我想一個我站在一個比較中肯的角度來看來分享給院長國防部長第一個我們在過去裡面請問一下我們會常常有這樣的一個這個他們的潛艦在繞近到近向到我們12海裡有嗎在過去沒有為什麼"},{"start":656.584,"end":666.27,"text":"因為我們的論述沒有去挑釁可是現在的論述一直在挑釁然後我們自己國人下阻自己的國人然後自己緊張"},{"start":667.489,"end":694.336,"text":"那祖國論是不是國安高層裡面的放話來嚇阻我們國人這就是一個很多的一些意象很多的脈絡才會產生今天為什麼有很多的共青裡面的潛艦一直繞台繞台原因在哪裡就是因為我們今天的論述一直在挑釁論述一直在挑釁我們今天講的另外"},{"start":696.748,"end":715.843,"text":"我想一直在挑釁的是中國中國每天都在以軍事的這種軍事兵力的洗腦在挑釁我們武力犯台是過去我們一直沒有不會說武力犯台也沒有人去承認也沒有人去否認但是"},{"start":717.213,"end":743.537,"text":"台灣有些高層就是一直主張挑釁的論述所以產生今天為什麼會我們兩岸之間的緊張的局勢都會產生原因就在這裡第二個關於全社會防疫韌性政策好這韌性政策裡面就會有什麼有五大的涵蓋五大的主軸第一個就是民力"},{"start":744.156,"end":771.725,"text":"信念：應用：第2戰略物資盤整：盤整：維生配送：第3能源：關鍵基礎設施為應：第4設服醫療：避難設施準備：第5自通運輸：金融網路安全好今天我們如果"},{"start":772.526,"end":791.768,"text":"在真正動全員動力然後40萬名令如果再以按照今天的報告的結果有將近七成都不同意這七成不同意的話"},{"start":792.847,"end":817.947,"text":"怎麼辦你如果你這論述你要召集這個所謂的這個全社會防衛任性委員然後再徹動40萬名吏那我問你很簡單有七成不同意第二個你們用什麼如果召集他們來加入如果如果"},{"start":820.302,"end":822.383,"text":"跟委員報告我們要維持一個韌性的台灣"},{"start":833.277,"end":854.372,"text":"要能夠防備任何的緊急事態的一個發生我們一定要強調我們全社會的一個韌性所以這個重點是在我們要強調整個全社會的一個韌性這樣的韌性越強我們才有辦法讓這個中國一直表示不放棄以武力併吞台灣的這個企圖"},{"start":855.293,"end":875.964,"text":"透過我們這個韌性透過我們國軍的自我防衛的能力的決心一直在加強之後才能夠有效的嚇阻中國不敢輕易的冒進那我想這個全民防衛這個全社會防衛韌性委員會的目的也就是在目標就是在國家面臨災害或緊急狀況的時候"},{"start":877.425,"end":890.06,"text":"他可以維持整個政府跟社會核心功能的持續運作這是很重要的一個韌性台灣的建設的項目之一如果說大家沒有辦法維持這樣的一個韌性"},{"start":892.181,"end":905.552,"text":"我們就沒有辦法能夠足夠的產生一個嚇阻力量那您剛剛的命題我要說的是那有超過八成以上的人都主張要維持現狀那維持現狀在中國看起來"},{"start":908.334,"end":934.708,"text":"我想他也是不能他也是一種挑釁啊他就是不能夠接受第一個我剛剛前面所談的國軍的螺絲現在在鬆懈了如果我們今天把國軍的戰備戰力我們的國軍的信念有數的話請問我們還有民兵嗎我們以前有召集過啊召集令一個禮拜"},{"start":988.462,"end":988.482,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:43:46 - 16:00:18","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155260","gazette":{"lineno":374,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（15時43分）有請我們國防部部長。"],["主席：麻煩請國防部部長備詢。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：部長好，國軍是不是螺絲鬆了？今天下午2點半，空軍防空暨飛彈指揮部中心在清泉崗基地內發生一起死亡案件，這個是在訓練過程中，子彈從下顎貫穿臉部，結果後來送醫之後不治死亡了。在訓練的過程……我曾經待過那個單位，以前我們叫空軍防砲的訓練營，那個地方我們曾經受訓的時候非常嚴格，不管在認知作戰，包含訓練基礎的基本動作都非常的嚴格，反觀現在你看看，我們很多的自殺案件，軍中裡面的這些狀況，包含剛剛發生的是不是訓練的問題，還是鬆懈了，造成士官兵的死亡。今天父母好不容易把孩子送到國軍是來為國家效力，但是在訓練的過程，包含教育訓練，這是非常嚴謹又嚴格的事情，今天我想請教，國軍的戰備、戰力是不是鬆了？你對這個死亡的感想如何？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我剛剛也接到司令跟我報告，就這個部分當然我也感到非常沉痛，發生這樣不幸的意外。現在有關進一步的狀況，因為這是在打靶訓練的過程當中發生的……"],["黃委員仁：當然啦。"],["顧部長立雄：有關這整個過程是如何，他們現在正在調閱監視錄影帶，正在釐清事實當中，等事實釐清之後，再來跟委員做進一步的報告。我想就整個打靶訓練過程當中的嚴謹度，我們會透過這些事件進一步再來檢討。"],["黃委員仁：所以今天我們講的，我們常常說我們這一次總預算裡面的國防預算最高，有六千四百多億，買武器縱然是對我們國軍的戰力、戰備絕對有效，但是現在的士兵渙散，包含志願役現在已經減少了將近六成以上，因為他們不願意當兵，為什麼？他說我寧可在社會上工作，我也不願意去當兵，現在志願役的少之又少，甚至義務役的也不願意去冒這個風險，但是他必須要盡國家之義務，那往往產生了什麼？在訓練的過程，包含這些紀律沒有好好的把關。所以在你任內希望樹立嚴謹的要求，任何一個部隊在訓練，包含加強國力的時候，希望他們都遵守我們國軍的教條，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：是、是，這當然。"],["黃委員仁：好，那請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。","黃委員，國防部長還要備詢，還是請回座？"],["黃委員仁：要，國防部也請留下。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：我有參加雙十晚會，這個晚會我也特別參加，感謝我們韓院長，舉辦的過程非常的成功，也感受到中華民國生日快樂，我也感受到非常的榮耀，但是我聽到的是什麼？祖國論的問題。祖國論的問題，現在談論這個祖國論，我們賴總統拋出了這個祖國論的論調，我們看一下大陸到現在為什麼沒有任何反應？沒有任何的反應，倒是我們不具名的國安……據說國安高層透過管道放這個消息警告國人，大陸準備環台軍演，到底誰是在地協力者？另外就是這顯然有自導自演的一個現象，今天討論這個祖國論，對岸沒有任何反應。我再請教，雙十國慶即將來臨，我們今天期待……賴總統在對國人跟國際進行這些論述，是不是這個祖國論又挑起兩岸之間的神經？院長也回答一下，希望賴總統也能夠聽到國人的期盼是希望和諧、兩岸之間的和平，而不是挑起紛爭，待會我要問部長唐華論，來，也回答一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，總統過幾天在雙十國慶上面的講話，當然不是我現在預先就能夠知道要講什麼話。但是在10月5號的國慶晚會上總統說中華民國是我們的祖國，這句話的邏輯一定沒有錯，而且從歷史的事實看來，中華民國存在113年，這個歷史也沒有錯，他的結論是中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬，這個結論也沒有錯。"],["黃委員仁：其實這個都挑起了兩岸的神經……"],["卓院長榮泰：哪一樣是錯的呢？"],["黃委員仁：講本國就好了，為什麼一定要講祖國論？對不對？祖國論是他們對岸的議題，不是我們臺灣、中華民國的國家裡面所講的祖國論，為什麼一定要攤在陽光下？雙十國慶要來臨了，是不是又挑起一個意識形態要加以論述，要告訴國際、告訴國人？那我們是不是在自導自演，嚇阻我們自己的國人？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有自導自演的這個狀況，除了我剛剛講的三個沒有錯之外，我們也希望中華人民共和國能正視中華民國存在的這個歷史事實。總統說中華民國是我們的祖國，是想讓全國國人能夠團結在國家之下，大家來保護國家的主權獨立跟安全。"],["黃委員仁：講到團結，我們一定是團結的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員仁：待會我要談的是另外我們賴總統所提的，我先談國際危機組織，你有沒有聽過這個組織？國際危機組織是非營利的單位，它是站在國際中立的論述，可是講錯了一段話，講什麼話？就是在報告裡面說賴總統當選之後，大陸以軟化的措辭，有意思讓賴政府更容易表達出改善兩岸關係的意向。但是賴總統以強硬的立場應對北京，加劇了緊張的局勢，國軍會自我約束，但是國際危機組織的報告卻告訴我們，臺灣的政客去挑釁或升高局勢。這個就是國際危機組織所表達的，因為在國際間是認同國際危機組織這個非營利單位所表達的論述，所以這是很明白的，站在中立，但是對我們國內來講，我們常常會講一些意識形態的議題，部長，你的看法呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我想總統的態度應該也都是在維持臺海，乃至於整個印太區域和平的這個觀點來從事相關的論述，我們無意挑釁。跟委員報告，我想您也可以看到共機每天進行軍事恫嚇，越過中線來襲擾，然後軍艦在我們臺海的周邊來環繞，在這個部分進行這樣的挑釁，破壞臺海乃至於印太區域的和平，包括在南海跟東海，這個都看得出來是中國在做，我們沒有在製造這個挑釁的作為，我想賴總統描述的也是一個客觀的事實，也沒有在做任何挑釁的……"],["黃委員仁：我站在一個比較中肯的角度來看，分享給院長、國防部長，第一個，請問我們過去常常會有他們的潛艦進入我們12浬，有嗎？在過去沒有，為什麼？因為我們的論述沒有去挑釁，可是現在的論述一直在挑釁，然後我們自己的國人嚇阻自己，然後自己緊張，祖國論是不是國安高層裡面放話來嚇阻我們國人？這就是很多的意向、很多的脈絡才會產生今天為什麼有很多的共機、潛艦一直繞臺、繞臺，原因在哪裡？就是因為我們今天的論述一直在挑釁嘛，我們今天講的，另外……"],["顧部長立雄：我想一直在挑釁的是中國，中國每天都在以這種軍事兵力的襲擾在挑釁我們。"],["黃委員仁：武力犯臺是過去我們一直沒有、沒有……不會說武力犯臺，也沒有人去承認，也沒有人去否認，但是臺灣有些高層就是一直主張挑釁的論述，所以今天為什麼兩岸之間的緊張局勢會產生，原因就在這裡。","第二個，關於全社會防衛韌性政策，這個韌性政策裡面涵蓋五大主軸：第一個就是民力訓練暨運用；第二個，戰略物資盤整暨維生配送；第三，能源及關鍵基礎設施維運；第四，社福醫療及避難設施整備；第五，資通、運輸及金融網絡安全。今天我們如果真正動員40萬民力，按照今天報告的結果，有將近七成都不同意，這七成不同意的話怎麼辦？如果你這論述，你要召集所謂的全社會防衛韌性委員，然後再策動40萬民力，那我問你，很簡單，有七成不同意。第二個，你們用什麼？如果召集他們來加入，如果他們不來，那你們要用什麼？軍法、民法還是刑法？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們要維持一個韌性的臺灣，要能夠防備任何緊急事態的發生，我們一定要強調我們全社會的韌性，所以這個重點是在我們要強調整個全社會的韌性，這樣的韌性越強，我們才有辦法讓中國一直表示不放棄以武力併吞臺灣的這個企圖，透過我們這個韌性，透過我們國軍自我防衛的能力、決心一直在加強之後，才能夠有效的嚇阻中國不敢輕易的冒進。","我想全社會防衛韌性委員會的目的、目標，就是在國家面臨災害或緊急狀況的時候，可以維持整個政府跟社會核心功能的持續運作，這是很重要的韌性，是臺灣的建設項目之一，如果大家沒有辦法維持這樣的韌性，那我們就沒有辦法能夠產生足夠的嚇阻力量。而你剛剛的命題，我要說的是，也有超過八成五以上的人都主張要維持現狀，那維持現狀，在中國看起來，我想它也是不能……它也是一種挑釁啊！它就是不能夠接受，現在多數、百分之八十五主張永遠維持現狀……"],["黃委員仁：第一個，我剛剛前面所談的，國軍的螺絲現在鬆了，如果我們今天提升國軍的戰備、戰力，我們的國軍訓練有素的話，請問我們還有民兵嗎？我們以前有召集過啊！召集令，一個禮拜……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這個不是民兵，因為一直在講民兵……"],["黃委員仁：民力，更改，民力。"],["顧部長立雄：這是民力。"],["黃委員仁：民力不是民兵。"],["顧部長立雄：根據民防法、相關的包括替代役的管理條例，根據相關的這些災防法，根據相關的這些法規，我們本來就是要建置這些民力，我們本來就有民防團隊的組織，現在在內政部主導之下，要利用替代役來改善這些民防組織，然後來增強我們義警、義消的能力，發生任何重大危害的時候，能夠加入協助從事搶救重大災害，乃至於維持地方的治安，我想這都是民力應用的部分。但絕對不是……"],["黃委員仁：我們再繼續討論，在國防外交的議題裡面，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝黃仁委員質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第3位徐巧芯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議議事日程報告事項第3案委員翁曉玲等23人\n擬具「憲法訴訟法第三十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、第4案委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「國家\n通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」案，院會所作決定，提出復議。是否有當，敬請\n公決─ 另定期處理─","agenda_id":"1137701_00008"}}},{"date":"2024-10-08","影片長度":"00:14:56","end_time":"2024-10-08T15:32:57+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155259","委員名稱":"林岱樺","duration":896,"start_time":"2024-10-08T15:18:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/390522a1d83d95e6644bc0f29381feb50d4fddf3c76ddd4196037c2b4844cef6d914f1b81d8e60275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5578437500000004,"end":5.5153437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.71784375,"end":7.287218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.31534375,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.024093750000002,"end":57.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.24971875000001,"end":58.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.04284375,"end":61.422218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.81034375,"end":66.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.46784375,"end":69.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.47159375000001,"end":70.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.68659375,"end":73.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.34846875000001,"end":83.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.87471875,"end":85.95846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.69284375000001,"end":90.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.77221875000001,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.34596875000001,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.37596875000001,"end":120.26534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.46784375000001,"end":232.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.37846875000002,"end":302.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.12721875,"end":305.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.24471875,"end":313.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.04096875000005,"end":322.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.78221875,"end":332.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.29534375000003,"end":392.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.23971875,"end":412.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.97909375,"end":430.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.90034375000005,"end":433.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.07284375,"end":470.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.30346875000004,"end":477.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.13346875,"end":490.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.77284375000005,"end":499.91909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.42534375,"end":523.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.39221875,"end":524.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.42159375,"end":528.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.3828437500001,"end":533.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.83784375,"end":542.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.1909687500001,"end":544.6884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.4140937500001,"end":550.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.42596875,"end":557.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.85096875,"end":573.0047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.47721875,"end":574.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.3547187500001,"end":584.1084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.3953437499999,"end":594.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.7734687500001,"end":599.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.32534375,"end":601.2365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.62471875,"end":604.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.53971875,"end":606.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.7378437500001,"end":607.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.4128437500001,"end":608.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.35346875,"end":610.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.6697187500001,"end":611.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.42471875,"end":613.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.28096875,"end":621.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.5422187500001,"end":618.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.9509687500001,"end":622.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.85784375,"end":626.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.6672187500001,"end":629.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.9622187500001,"end":631.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.12659375,"end":634.3115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.36221875,"end":640.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.24721875,"end":644.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.8415937500001,"end":648.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.25034375,"end":656.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.73471875,"end":654.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.00846875,"end":659.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SP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院長 若您這樣已經承諾 我想地方政府各各城市跟鄉鄉政事公所他就知道他只要提供照片免抗災就可以來做認定的一個依據但是這邊有一個善意的提醒在4月3號我們的花蓮地震補助花東的農產品的運輸我們的媒體政策上叫做全部補助但"},{"start":111.84,"end":136.66,"text":"實質上每副補助的額度卻限100箱的這個交通補助所以在這邊只是善意的提醒避免政府的這樣的美意在執行到最末端的時候是榮民的感受跟政策間出現落差的遺憾好今天質詢的是消失的兒童郵寄權益別讓兒童郵寄權益成為臺灣缺少的一塊拼圖"},{"start":137.481,"end":161.503,"text":"在這邊兒童權益為普世價值政府不應該置身事外而且本身本國的法令是形成混亂的現況也讓院長知道以及我們現在特色遊景場的困境有三具體建議有三好兒童權益的為普世價值政府不該置身事外每年也就是下個月11月20號就是國際兒童人權日在聯合國兒童權利的這個兒童"},{"start":164.305,"end":185.576,"text":"權利公約當中我們的第31條就講到兒童享有休息休閒的權利有從事適合其年齡的遊戲娛樂活動的權利以及自己參加文化生活藝術的生活的權利好本國2014年通過兒童權利公約實施法落實的做法是兩個現況"},{"start":187.017,"end":213.007,"text":"各縣市政府各行其事我們的中央卻沒有主政的統籌機關好2015年民間發起防火特色公園2022年民間團體說了希望許孩子一個永續的遊戲城市六都的候選人都承諾了但目前各縣市的做法是怎麼樣呢第一個裁員不同第二個主管機關不同在各縣市政府4萬的公園遊戲場是公務局"},{"start":216.488,"end":232.157,"text":"市內親子館是社會局各局處在公共建設當中是可以興建自己的親子遊樂場看到中央我們特色公園中央主管的機關是誰這邊一定要讓院長知道了"},{"start":233.627,"end":240.955,"text":"衛福部社家署訂定遊戲場設施規範內政部國土署負責闢建公園綠地教育部國教署補助學校遊戲場建置經濟部水利署負責合併公園設置"},{"start":252.007,"end":265.863,"text":"產巴署要負責輔導本土的遊具業者我們特色公園主管機關是誰目前是多頭馬車我地方政府要向哪一個部會來申請"},{"start":267.845,"end":295.28,"text":"我們有這個特色公園有三個困境第一個遮蔽不足高溫難耐這個遮陽設施是不足兒童啊是容易曬傷燙傷的而且呢公園的遮蔽不應該只有仰賴現有的樹木也應該要考慮到棚架帆布以及提供水源降溫好我們的地方政府的裁員部族就把這樣的遮陽設施納入了下一級的維護經費間接的就排擠到什麼"},{"start":295.92,"end":324.998,"text":"部道公廁體建設施的修繕預算好我們來看鋪面材質影響場地的溫度同等的日照設施自然草地跟人工草皮的溫度就可以達30度了好我們的特色公園困境二空間不足挑戰低挑戰性是低的特色公園的用地是取得不易除了發會聚資引進的外國特色遊具來改善現有公園各縣市政府是少有的"},{"start":325.518,"end":349.587,"text":"用置地重劃取得公園用地：再用標授底廢壁來蓋遊戲場這樣的案例是少所以我們地方能投入的資源說不多的所以在這邊本席呼籲我們行政院中央應該要重視跟主打好我們再看這個有空間不足當中講的油罐罐頭油去充斥各公園"},{"start":350.547,"end":366.572,"text":"雖然安全但是特色不足不好玩的公園就如同閒適的公共設施好第一個全國一封翁的蓋特色公園已經大同小異的國外郵據如鳥巢四秋千那遙遙馬出現了罐頭郵據2.0"},{"start":369.913,"end":389.337,"text":"感覺就是同一本的廠商目錄挑出來的並不能向國外結合在地景觀跟人文特色發展鄉鎮特色的遊戲場第二個也因為我們太過度於依賴國外進口油具要維修的時候就必須等待國外的零件缺乏國內產業鏈的這個連結"},{"start":392.378,"end":411.368,"text":"好第三個我們的數量不足不好玩的公園哪是人潮洶湧不好玩的公園是罰人問津所以我們身為爸爸媽媽的現在是跨縣制為孩子找尋特色公園也印證了供需失衡比如我們屏東車城"},{"start":413.015,"end":429.65,"text":"的洋蔥大福遊樂場高雄時代公園的遊樂場臺南港濱公歷史公園的遊樂場都是地方政府千萬級的打造但後續的維護費用是非常的高昂導致地方政府無法再興建新的同等級的遊樂場"},{"start":430.951,"end":453.349,"text":"好我這個再講到身心障礙者我們的選項更少了輪椅族能玩的設施是不多的即使公園我採用共榮式的設計只要一走出遊樂場那我周遭的無障礙設施是未見改善我興建公園的美意減半所以本席也主張應該逐年撿到各公園各公園的這個遊戲場的共榮設施"},{"start":456.712,"end":476.97,"text":"實現所有人一起玩具體建議有三這要請院長明確的答覆第一個 中央應確立主管機關到這個主管機關怎麼樣的重要呢因為是澈澈公園的主管機關他要來跟衛福部教育部內政部主計總處各單位來成立跨部會的專責"},{"start":478.231,"end":507.389,"text":"院長您願不願意來認定兒童遊戲空間的國家總體目標如果我們行政院真的面對少子化當中我們也願意把兒童遊戲空間當作國家總體目標預算計劃我們通通就要出來了而且也要列為國家重點施政方向這是第一個等一下請院長來回應第二個我們除了室外之外室內也應該設置親子遊樂空間而且要結合右腳"},{"start":508.029,"end":508.089,"text":"委員．林岱樺"},{"start":524.892,"end":540.328,"text":"運動中心﹚立體停車場﹚休閒校舍﹚活動中心﹚辦公大樓﹚輔導地方政府多目標的使用﹚讓促餐的業者融積獎勵﹚讓他們願意回饋公共特色遊樂場﹚室內親子館的相關設施﹚擴大兒童遊戲場域"},{"start":546.033,"end":560.098,"text":"針對室內的部分以及相關我們的公共建設願不願有這樣的一個獎勵第三個油具國產化跟公園特色化我們要讓罐頭油具不腐爛國產油具帶動智慧製造"},{"start":561.938,"end":567.32,"text":"智慧製造的特色就是少量多養所以請產業發展署將郵據國產化視為產業轉型的重點主責輔導國內的金屬構建房部塑膠地電建築景觀等產業"},{"start":578.005,"end":604.751,"text":"發展特色遊戲場的解決方案提供國內多樣客製化的選擇降低進口的依賴同時帶動我們產業製造脈絡智慧化高質化協助公園結合地方特色提升兒童權益這三項我們一一來看院長您要怎麼樣的來承諾中央對於特色主管機關的部會是哪一個"},{"start":607.577,"end":611.12,"text":"社區裡面的公園或是校園裡的或是公園裡的"},{"start":612.452,"end":639.641,"text":"他現在都是由他的場域所在地的目的事業主管機關那如果要把它統一一個地方效率是不是會更高呢在公園裡面的如果要衛福來管在學校裡面的值得考慮我們可以來考量這個事情是如何產生一個更高的效率同時就有很多是地方政府去維護"},{"start":641.614,"end":643.996,"text":"特色公園不應該納入國家總體目標不應該納為國家重點的施施方向"},{"start":657.122,"end":674.538,"text":"為了小孩子能夠有一個好的環境 院長您可以把這個問題帶回去 到你不需要在現在就馬上否決 因為你這是矛盾 我說我們來想一個更高效率的方式 至少你要回應本席 你要交給哪一個人或哪一個單位先來做研議"},{"start":676.068,"end":698.437,"text":"還是要內政部跟教育部跟衛福部分別來討論一個就好哪一個一個就好那我請政委來負責好不好哪一個政委如果這樣我請陳時中政委來負責好陳時中陳政委好謝謝好第二個我們在這個室外的兒童遊戲場域之外有室內的部分您認不認同如果你認同在陳時中政委他的"},{"start":699.117,"end":712.441,"text":"這樣的一個協調這個評估的當中他就會納入包括我的各個公共建設我如果有促成的隆基獎勵讓他能讓業者來回饋公共特色的遊戲場包括室內的遊戲場你的看法"},{"start":716.002,"end":717.183,"text":"是內政部來討論融資獎勵要放在什麼樣的標準"},{"start":731.289,"end":737.591,"text":"當然可以,我請內政部來評估,容積獎勵這個事情這個問題還是要內政部先來評估,我們再送交政委來討論好了"},{"start":758.703,"end":783.18,"text":"所以你這個是可以分開執行是嗎是只要內政部就可以來針對這個促餐的部分就可以先來評估是嗎我想我這一件部分這個部分我可以請內政部來評估怎麼樣跟這個隆基獎勵等等那這樣的話是不是一個月內就可以給本席這樣的回應了好我請謝謝好第三個我們郵寄國產化公園特色化"},{"start":783.86,"end":785.301,"text":"經濟部的產發署就是在協助國內廠商你願不願意將主責這樣一個新增的業務給經濟部產發署呢"},{"start":813.872,"end":824.427,"text":"謝謝院長你很明確的願意將我們的特色公園在很清楚的明確回應本席包括我們的國產化包括我們室內的增加透過容積獎"},{"start":825.288,"end":854.117,"text":"透過相關的容積獎率的評估也願意在主責當中先做評估由我們陳時中政委好謝謝院長你很明確的對我們兒童權益的重視也願意把它當作國家總體目標這件事情我想要再問一次院長你認不認為兒童遊戲空間是國家的總體目標這是第一個兒童遊戲空間應不應該納為國家重點施政請回答這兩個問題"},{"start":855.925,"end":868.541,"text":"兒童遊戲空間是國家可以發展的重要的政策之一這個我當然同意您願不願意把兒童遊戲空間的預算計畫演練為國家重點施政呢我們會在"},{"start":870.845,"end":894.658,"text":"施政的過程當中會把他納進去整個施政當中的一環因為這是新生項目 院長其實這是過往我們政府沒有特別去重視所以希望在卓院長11頂林岱這個就是我們對於全台然後人民的所有的下一代他的遊戲權我們在卓院長的內閣當中很明確的一個施政的一個重點亮點好 謝謝院長謝謝 謝謝 謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:18:01 - 15:32:57","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155259","gazette":{"lineno":288,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（15時18分）有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：在正式質詢之前，希望得到行政院的全力支持，短短兩個月內，我們高雄市遭受凱米跟山陀兒颱風的重擊，農、漁災損達4億5,000萬，甚至還會再上升。院長願意對這樣的災損情況核定從優、從寬、從速，從速要得到你的承諾，叫做「免勘災，提供照片」，這個能不能做得到？","第二個，我們全部的農漁業品項是全品項的救助，您可不可以承諾呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：風速達到一定的程度，全品項的救災是農業部早有的計畫，也在補助的措施當中，這一次包括上一次，我們這一次到屏東也是這樣處理。","至於免現勘，現在農業部有一個app照相平臺，因為總是要有一個依據，把它拍一個……"],["林委員岱樺：所以只要照相就免勘災，只要照相就好？"],["卓院長榮泰：只要傳上去，讓他們知道真的是這個地方、這個地點有這樣的損害。"],["林委員岱樺：好，如果院長已經這樣承諾，我想地方政府、鄉鎮市公所就知道，他們只要提供照片就可以免勘災，做認定的依據。","但是這邊有一個善意的提醒，在4月3號花蓮地震，補助花東的農產品運輸，媒體政策上叫做全部補助，但實質上每戶交通補助的額度卻限於100箱，所以在這邊只是善意的提醒，避免政府這樣的美意，在執行到最末端的時候，讓農民的感受跟政策間出現落差的遺憾。","今天質詢的是消失的兒童遊憩權益，別讓兒童遊憩權益成為臺灣缺少的一塊拼圖。兒童權益為普世價值，政府不應該置身事外，而且本國法令形成紊亂的現況，也要讓院長知道，以及我們現在特色遊戲場的困境有三、具體建議有三。","兒童權益為普世價值，政府不該置身事外，下個月，也就是每年11月20號，就是國際兒童人權日，在聯合國兒童權利公約當中的第三十一條就講到，兒童享有休息、休閒的權利，有從事適合其年齡的遊戲、娛樂活動的權利，以及自由參加文化生活藝術活動的權利。","本國2014年通過了兒童權利公約施行法，落實的作法是兩個現況，各縣市政府各行其是，我們中央卻沒有主政的統籌機關；2015年民間發起「還我特色公園」；2022年民間團體提出，希望「許孩子一個永續的遊戲城市」；六都的候選人都承諾了，但目前各縣市的作法是怎麼樣呢？第一個，財源不同；第二個，主管機關不同，在各縣市政府當中，室外公園遊戲場由工務局維護；室內親子館的部分，社會局、各局處在公共建設當中，是可以興建自己的親子遊樂場。","而特色公園的中央主管機關是誰呢？這邊一定要讓院長知道，衛福部社家署訂定遊戲場設施規範；內政部國土署負責闢建公園綠地；教育部國教署補助學校遊戲場建置；經濟部水利署負責河濱公園的設置；產發署負責輔導本土的遊具業者。所以我們特色公園的主管機關是誰呢？目前是多頭馬車，而地方政府要向哪一個部會來申請呢？","目前我們特色公園有三個困境，第一個，遮蔽不足，高溫難耐，當遮陽設施不足，兒童是容易曬傷、燙傷的，而且公園的遮蔽不應該只有仰賴現有的樹木，也應該要考慮到棚架、帆布以及提供水源降溫等作法。但我們地方政府的財源不足，把這樣的遮陽設施納入了下一期的維護經費，間接的排擠到步道、公廁、體健設施的修繕預算。接著來看鋪面材質影響場地的溫度，同等的日照設施，自然草地跟人工草皮的溫差竟可以達30度。","特色公園的第二個困境，空間不足，挑戰性低，特色公園用地取得不易，除花費巨資引進外國特色遊具來改造現有公園，也有縣市政府用市地重劃取得公園用地，再用標售抵費地來蓋遊戲場，但這樣的案例是少的，所以我們地方能投入的資源數是不多的，在這邊本席呼籲我們行政院、中央應該要重視跟主導。","我們再來看看空間不足當中講的罐頭遊具充斥各公園，雖然安全，但是特色不足，不好玩的公園就如同閒置的公共設施。第一個，全國一窩蜂的蓋特色公園，引進大同小異的國外遊具，如鳥槽式鞦韆、搖搖馬，出現了罐頭遊具2.0，感覺就是同一本廠商目錄挑出來的，並不能像國外結合在地景觀跟人文特色，發展鄉鎮特色的遊戲場。第二個，因為我們太過度於依賴國外進口遊具，要維修的時候就必須等待國外的零件，缺乏國內產業鏈的連結。第三個困境，我們的數量不足，好玩的公園是人潮洶湧；不好玩的公園是乏人問津，所以身為爸爸媽媽的，現在是跨縣市為孩子找尋特色公園，也印證了供需失衡，譬如屏東車城洋蔥大福遊樂場，高雄時代公園遊樂場，臺南港濱歷史公園遊樂場，都是地方政府千萬級打造的，但後續維護費用非常高昂，導致地方政府無法再興建新的同等級遊樂場。","再講到身心障礙者，選項更少了，輪椅族能玩的設施是不多的，即使公園採用共融式設計，但只要一走出遊樂場，周遭的無障礙設施並未見改善，那麼興建公園的美意就會減半。所以本席主張應該逐年檢討各公園遊戲場的共融設施，讓所有人可以一起玩。","具體建議有三，請院長明確答復。第一個，中央應確立主管機關，為何主管機關重要呢？因為特色公園的主管機關要跟衛福部、教育部、內政部、主計總處等各單位成立跨部會的專責單位，院長，您願不願意認定兒童遊戲空間為國家總體目標？如果行政院真的願意面對少子化問題，也願意把兒童遊戲空間當作國家總體目標，如此預算、計畫就通通要出來，也要列為國家重點施政方向，這是第一個，等一下請院長來回應。","第二個，除了室外之外，室內也應該設置親子遊樂空間，結合幼教、托育、諮商、輔導，提供友善親子免曝曬的環境。所以要請中央政府在各項公共建設，如果這是國家重大建設的話，那麼應該在藝文場館、運動中心、立體停車場、閒置校舍、活動中心、辦公大樓，輔導地方政府多目標使用，給促參業者容積獎勵，讓他們願意回饋公共特色遊樂場、室內親子館的相關設施，擴大兒童遊戲場域。針對室內部分以及相關公共建設，願不願有這樣的獎勵？","第三個，遊具國產化跟公園特色化。我們要讓罐頭遊具不浮濫，讓國產遊具來帶動智慧製造。所謂智慧製造的特色就是少量多樣，所以請產業發展署將遊具國產化視為產業轉型重點，主責輔導國內的金屬扣件、帆布、塑膠、地墊、建築、景觀等產業，發展特色遊戲場的解決方案，提供國內多樣客製化選擇，降低對進口的依賴，同時帶動產業製造，邁入智慧化、高質化，協助公園結合地方特色，提升兒童權益。","這三項我們一一來看，院長，您要怎麼承諾？中央主管特色公園的部會是哪一個？"],["卓院長榮泰：向委員報告，社區裡的公園或校園裡的或公園裡的，現在都是由場域所在地的目的事業主管機關……"],["林委員岱樺：我剛才都有做報告了。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果要把它統一在一個地方……"],["林委員岱樺：在中央當中要不要把特色公園當作……"],["卓院長榮泰：效率是不是會更高呢？如果在公園裡的要衛福部來管，在學校裡面的如果要……"],["林委員岱樺：院長，剛才可能我的……"],["卓院長榮泰：值得考慮、值得考慮，我們可以來考量這個事情，看如何產生更好、更高的效率。不過由地方政府去維護的公園、場所也很多，所以有的該從地方自治事項去做，有的中央的目的事業機關可以去做……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你認為特色公園不應該納入國家總體目標？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是不應該，而是……"],["林委員岱樺：不應該納為國家重點施政方向？"],["卓院長榮泰：為了小孩子能有一個好的環境……"],["林委員岱樺：院長，您可以把這個問題帶回去。你不需要現在就馬上否決，因為這是矛盾的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有否決，我是說我們來想一個更高效率的方式……"],["林委員岱樺：至少你要回應本席，要交給哪一個人或哪一個單位先研議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想還是要由內政部跟教育部、衛福部分別來討論。"],["林委員岱樺：一個就好，哪一個？"],["卓院長榮泰：一個就好？我請政委來負責，好不好？"],["林委員岱樺：哪一個政委？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果這樣我請陳時中政委來負責。"],["林委員岱樺：好，陳時中政委，謝謝。","其次，在室外的兒童遊戲場域外還有室內部分，這點您認不認同？如果你認同陳時中政委的協調與評估就會納入，包括各公共建設如果有促參容積獎勵，讓業者來回饋公共特色的遊戲場，包括室內的遊戲場，您的看法為何？"],["卓院長榮泰：室內的部分牽扯到容積獎勵的問題，就不是剛剛的問題可以涵蓋的了，這個需要內政部來討論，容積獎勵要放在什麼樣的標準要討論。"],["林委員岱樺：所以我才說這個要不要納入國家總體目標，如果是總體目標，這個就會是我要擴增，但政府不用花太多的預算，可是卻能夠在公共建設導入的時候就可以拿到我的公共設施，這就是本席希望的，在減少政府的負擔之下，您願不願意也納入評估呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然可以，我請內政部來評估容積獎勵這個事情。"],["林委員岱樺：也是由陳時中政委來評估嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想這個問題還是要內政部先來評估，我們再送交政委來討論好了。"],["林委員岱樺：所以這個是可以分開執行，是嗎？現在只要內政部就可以針對促參的部分來評估，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想就這個部分，我可以請內政部來評估怎麼樣跟容積獎勵等等……"],["林委員岱樺：這樣的話，是不是一個月內就可以給本席回應呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我請劉部長來處理。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝。","第三個是我們的遊具國產化、公園特色化，是不是請產發署將遊具國產化視為產業轉型的重點，而且我們說到智慧化、高質化，我們說要AI製造，這就是標準的AI製造，小量、多樣，結合特色公園。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，經濟部的產發署就是在協助國內廠商升級。"],["林委員岱樺：你願不願意將主責這樣一個新增的業務給經濟部產發署呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：可以的，因為產發署本身就是從事這樣的業務。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝院長，你很明確的願意針對我們的特色公園很清楚明確的回應本席，包括我們的遊具國產化，包括我們室內部分的增加是透過相關容積獎勵的評估，也願意在主責當中先做評估，由我們陳時中政委，好，謝謝院長很明確的表示對我們兒童權益的重視，也願意把它當作國家總體目標。這件事我想要再問一次，院長，你認不認為兒童遊戲空間是國家的總體目標？這是第一個。兒童遊戲空間應不應該納為國家重點施政？請回答這兩個問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：兒童遊戲空間是國家可以發展的重要政策之一，這個我當然同意，對。"],["林委員岱樺：是，您願不願意把兒童遊戲空間的預算及計畫也列為國家重點施政呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會在施政的過程當中把它納進去作為整個施政當中的一環。"],["林委員岱樺：因為這是新增項目，院長，其實這是過往我們政府沒有特別去重視的，所以希望在卓院長的……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們會把它納入施政考量。"],["林委員岱樺：這個就是我們對於全臺灣人民所有下一代的遊戲權，我們在卓院長的內閣當中很明確的一個施政重點、亮點。好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，內政組之質詢已詢答完畢，我們現在休息10分鐘，休息之後進行外交及國防組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（15時33分）","繼續開會（15時43分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議議事日程報告事項第3案委員翁曉玲等23人\n擬具「憲法訴訟法第三十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、第4案委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「國家\n通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」案，院會所作決定，提出復議。是否有當，敬請\n公決─ 另定期處理─","agenda_id":"1137701_00008"}}},{"date":"2024-10-08","影片長度":"00:15:35","end_time":"2024-10-08T15:17:50+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155258","委員名稱":"馬文君","duration":935,"start_time":"2024-10-08T15:02:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/390522a1d83d95e610515bee1d1cc35f0d4fddf3c76ddd419b0f4f2a00ffb7de52fbb683eb77f5d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.62846875,"end":11.134718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.53096875,"end":16.079093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.500968750000002,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.22096875,"end":26.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.16596875,"end":42.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.416593750000004,"end":45.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.47534375,"end":57.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.95846875,"end":59.549093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.32534375,"end":61.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.742843750000006,"end":63.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.81846875,"end":65.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.16409375,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.85159375,"end":69.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.34909375000001,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.32784375,"end":72.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.16721875,"end":74.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.00659375000001,"end":77.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.65596875,"end":78.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.87096875,"end":80.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.11534375000001,"end":81.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.82409375,"end":83.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.96721875,"end":84.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.18221875,"end":88.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.08034375000001,"end":89.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.68346875,"end":93.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.05846875,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.07096875,"end":96.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.02846875,"end":98.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.41221875000001,"end":100.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.84221875,"end":103.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.96409375,"end":106.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.79909375000001,"end":132.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.70971875000001,"end":112.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.70221875000001,"end":166.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.22846875000002,"end":168.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.66284375,"end":171.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.71721875,"end":171.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.83534375000002,"end":174.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.97034375,"end":171.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.70846875,"end":177.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.61534375000002,"end":180.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.99846875,"end":182.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.02346875,"end":183.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.03596875000002,"end":191.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.41471875000002,"end":204.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.69096875000002,"end":211.42409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.72471875000002,"end":205.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.34846875000002,"end":209.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.36534375000002,"end":209.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.43284375000002,"end":210.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.71096875,"end":213.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.11596875,"end":213.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.44909375,"end":249.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.87284375000002,"end":229.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.93596875,"end":230.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.47784375,"end":278.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.86096875,"end":252.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.88159375,"end":255.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.47971875,"end":260.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.13346875,"end":263.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.03909375,"end":274.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.02971875000003,"end":279.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.95784375,"end":279.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.32909375,"end":279.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.86909375,"end":284.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.56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謝謝民力的部分它包含的團體相當多比方它有義勇警察大隊"},{"start":67.841,"end":94.565,"text":"議員："},{"start":95.896,"end":106.315,"text":"發生危險的時候他還能夠救援這些人命跟人的生命重要的問題但在穩定整個社會的秩序跟自然的問題協助這些工作"},{"start":107.715,"end":132.115,"text":"議員長這聽起來其實是有點虛幻因為其實我們剛剛提到的所有的一些民訪團體比如說義警義消民訪還有義交等等其實這些本來他們在現在他們的工作就是協情所有相關的一些單位的協情其實他們本來就在做而且做的"},{"start":132.776,"end":133.096,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":162.956,"end":187.447,"text":"可是另外還有一些新的到底是什麼有還有什麼新的嗎首先很感謝委員提到的剛剛這些個團體包括民間的慈善的工作隊長我們討論新的部分好不好第一個我們要感謝他們但是就是要把他們的工作再整合起來做有系統的整合起來而不是段段落落的區區段段這樣這樣一段一段來做整合起來"},{"start":188.087,"end":211.164,"text":"整個名利才能夠去做有效的運用我們先請教另外一個就是我剛剛說的除了剛剛這幾個因為40萬的可是名利除了我們剛剛院長提到的因為你可能還漏掉了就是我們的替代役那替代役裡面他就佔了絕大部分大概26萬多了那還有沒有什麼其他的"},{"start":211.924,"end":230.606,"text":"你說的NGO團體NGO團體到目前為止我們的計算基礎大概在3萬到4萬左右那這NGO的團體我們也希望它可以未來有碰到這個大規模的災害的時候可以跟我們的政府的一些力量一起結合舉例來說有哪些NGO團體"},{"start":231.607,"end":234.048,"text":"他們過去現在有在做嗎所以其實你們提到的都是現在已經存在的這些相關的組織跟團體那平常其實他們就已經做得非常好"},{"start":257.296,"end":278.665,"text":"此計是所有全世界公認﹖他不管在任何的紀律各方面﹖還有效率其實都非常的好﹖甚至他並不需要政府再去多做其他的規範﹖其實反而會綁手綁腳﹖因為我在裡面還有看到就是有黑熊的部分﹖黑熊學院也在我們裡面﹖"},{"start":279.946,"end":298.237,"text":"黑熊學院他們是民間團體自己在訓練他們自己的民間的力量那我們是這樣子就是包括像慈濟或是黑熊這些的未來是要那邊就是說如果我們到所以他們未來都會在我們這個可是名利裡面是不是也會屬於其中一環但是是志願性的"},{"start":299.782,"end":328.343,"text":"因為現在所有都是志願性的對 志工團體都志願性的對 因為你在所以這是平時是由內政部來做統整民間團體由民間力量自己來做協助跟訓練但是我們剛剛所提到的如果你是一警一消或甚至替代役的訓練的話那內政部就按照法律來做訓練這些訓練會比較有規模譬如說我們要做EMT的訓練部長 這個他們本來就在做對 但是我們希望能夠再精進"},{"start":329.304,"end":350.404,"text":"消防也是因為你還是做初級的我們現在看到你們做的只是初級的救護訓練然後消防的部分其實他們也都有其實我聽到地方的那個教訓招訓算是去年開始有一些像這樣的協情單位他們去年開始可能有接受去年是一天今年是兩天"},{"start":351.425,"end":377.945,"text":"那他們受的一個訓練大概就是檢疫的救護然後還有操作無人機可是他們有很多都已經60歲了因為現在年輕人我們少子化其實年輕的並不多不像以前其實要參加疫消都還要排隊那現在其實在招募的過程其實不像過去那麼多了可是他們在訓練大概就訓練這些有一些他們說"},{"start":379.48,"end":398.604,"text":"我們操作無人機要做什麼他這一次的課程就是這樣那你只是在很短的時間那你那麼多的人感覺上其實他好像就是在也是就是過水一樣所以我們現在今天要特別提出來的這是一個問題就是他本來其實已經都有在做尤其你們剛剛念的這些團體組織那因為你們在對媒體披露出來的"},{"start":405.111,"end":405.271,"text":"市農工商："},{"start":421.548,"end":422.168,"text":"在這裡不好意思"},{"start":449.554,"end":449.594,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":472.774,"end":473.134,"text":"主席"},{"start":497.375,"end":498.316,"text":"現在的國軍他們在救災當中只是支援調度組"},{"start":513.337,"end":536.828,"text":"真正有災害發生的時候第一個都是警消在第一線馳援但是支援調度組包括很多機具或者是其他後續的這些清消的工作都來協助因為你講的這個我就說他們平常已經在做火災發生的當下當然是消防疫消他們會去那疫警當然在整個維護上面協助警力這些本來就在做我剛剛也講到你說的救災的部分"},{"start":538.749,"end":540.05,"text":"有其他的人請問再計算一下"},{"start":561.713,"end":576.739,"text":"他們有亦警亦消就是這些民防團體他們在一般來說因為我們現在少子化尤其像我們現在的教招教招一般來說他的時間現在拉長然後他的頻率越來越高"},{"start":577.039,"end":577.359,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":595.939,"end":598.381,"text":"報告委員 有關招訊的兩個部分在內政部所處理是替代役"},{"start":623.88,"end":641.694,"text":"替代議的部長我要請教的是因為不要講天那個我們都知道那個我們都知道已經存在的不用再解釋我現在要講的是因為你剛剛成立這個委員會那這個委員會裡面你又要那邊有40萬的可是名利那這些可是名利裡面扣掉比較"},{"start":643.215,"end":643.616,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":657.932,"end":678.565,"text":"比如黑熊學院這樣子的一個NGO的組織他們要不要接受教召 只要告訴我們要不要就好所以他們要嘛 後備軍人有國防部負責我現在要問的是說這一個部分他要不要接受教召 因為是內政部管的"},{"start":680.886,"end":697.254,"text":"那他是誰呢我跟委員解釋一下部長你先不要講話那請教院長如果我們這個那邊的委員會我們現在要知道如果因為像義消義警他們平常做了很多的社會服務的工作"},{"start":697.594,"end":698.274,"text":"這完全沒有辦法重疊跟取代"},{"start":716.224,"end":734.852,"text":"每一個不同的團體他都有他的主管機關會負責他平常的業務這個都不會受影響那或許我們在地方大型的演練的時候會有一些基本上的訓練但是這還沒有做到細部的計畫那為什麼要有40萬的名利因為大型災害來臨的時候可能在很多的地點"},{"start":735.712,"end":738.774,"text":"南投縣曾經發生921大地震在這麼大的一個天然災害裡面其實大家的互助那個已經是每個人都動起來當然我們"},{"start":754.261,"end":755.121,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":779.551,"end":805.099,"text":"目前是不會增加我們需要的是這樣的答案另外因為我們在看到國軍常備部隊目前已經低於20萬人未來再加上一年起義務役也許可以到達25萬那全國可徵用的列管後備總人數大概200餘萬人可是按照國防部目前他的資料就退伍8年內"},{"start":805.819,"end":808.51,"text":"他可以列管的議欄大概有76萬"},{"start":810.708,"end":835.634,"text":"每年招訓的元額大概是26萬也就是說我們現在在徵招的時候在動員實施的時候你如果在徵招期間對於徵招勤務還有軍需生產的人力是召集退伍以後8年內的後備軍人大概就是76萬人如果再加上我們的常備部隊25萬人左右大概可以用的就是100萬"},{"start":837.054,"end":837.094,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":856.561,"end":875.556,"text":"這個我們在動員實施階段軍方的這些任務其實是有些是重疊的所以到時候可能會發生有一些混亂的一個狀況我想請教的是如果暫時部隊耗損的時候補充人力要從哪裡來"},{"start":879.333,"end":891.505,"text":"這個40萬的名利基本上他不會參與剛剛說的那樣的一個活動跟那樣的任務他主要是在訓練他從事剛剛說的協助收容緊急救援以及次序維護"},{"start":892.605,"end":914.821,"text":"部長因為我為什麼特別提到就是說因為現在大家會覺得你好像準備的是戰爭的狀況所以我特別提出來是剛剛那40萬人裡面其實是跟我們的戰爭就是我們在沒有就是跟我們的後備體系可能會被納到包括我們常備部隊一起要參與作戰的如果他在梯隊耗損以後其實通常會從這些人"},{"start":915.782,"end":915.802,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:02:15 - 15:17:50","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155258","gazette":{"lineno":193,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（15時2分）謝謝主席，麻煩請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：院長午安。院長，在今天內政的質詢裡，可能也有非常多近期大家關切的部分，就是總統要成立一個全社會防衛韌性委員會，當中要特別培養40萬的可恃民力，我想要請教這40萬是怎麼計算出來的？它包含哪些人或者哪些團體？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，關於民力的部分，其包含的團體相當多，比方有義勇警察大隊、義交大隊、山地的義警隊、義消還有災害防救團體跟志願團體等等，當然還有一種特種防衛團，這些加起來就朝向40萬民力來做準備，這個是為了因應在很多災害發生的時候，讓人民能夠自救，也能夠互助，同時有收容必要的時候，他能夠去協助，在發生危險的時候，他還能夠救援這些人命，重要的問題是在穩定整個社會的秩序跟治安的問題，協助這些工作。"],["馬委員文君：院長，這聽起來其實是有點虛幻。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啊……"],["馬委員文君：因為我們剛剛提到的一些民防團體，比如義警、義消、民防還有義交等等，其實他們現在的工作就是所有相關一些單位的協勤，其實他們本來就在做，而且做得算是都非常好，尤其剛剛提到包括很多民間組織，比如說像慈濟，其實他們做得甚至比政府好，他們往往都跑在第一時間，如果在穩定人心或者災害發生的當下，其實他們不管是面對地震也好，不管對於風災、水災，其實他們也落實得非常的多，所以像剛剛唸到的這些，其實他們平常都有在做，而且他們都有受到很好的訓練，可是另外還有一些新的，到底是什麼？還有什麼新的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，很感謝委員剛剛提到的這些個團體，包括民間的慈善工作……"],["馬委員文君：院長，我們討論新的部分，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，第一個，我們要感謝他們，但就是要把他們的工作再整合起來，有系統的整合起來，而不是段段落落、區區段段這樣一段一段來做，整合起來，整個民力才能夠去做有效的運用，等於說……"],["馬委員文君：我們現在先請教另外一個，就是我剛剛說的，除了剛剛這幾個，因為40萬的可恃民力，除了剛剛院長提到的，因為你可能還漏掉了，就是我們的替代役……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，還有替代役。"],["馬委員文君：替代役在裡面就占了絕大部分，大概二十六萬多了……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，還有替代役。"],["馬委員文君：還有沒有什麼其他的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長說明。"],["馬委員文君：你說的NGO團體。"],["劉部長世芳：NGO團體到目前為止，我們的計算基礎大概在3萬到4萬左右，這NGO的團體，我們也希望它在未來碰到大規模災害的時候，可以跟政府的一些力量一起結合。"],["馬委員文君：舉例來說，有哪些NGO團體？"],["劉部長世芳：我想第一個有防災式的訓練，還有你剛剛提到的慈濟，另外還有一個叫T-CERT，就是民間的自主應變隊，這個部分大致上譬如像臺北港、高雄港，如果有碰到大規模風災的時候，我們希望在第一時間內他們可以自救……"],["馬委員文君：他們過去、現在有在做嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有，現在已經有……"],["馬委員文君：所以其實你們提到的都是現在已經存在的……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，有些在增加當中。"],["馬委員文君：這些相關的組織跟團體……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有，有些在增加。"],["馬委員文君：平常其實他們就已經做得非常好，慈濟是全世界公認的，它不管在任何的……"],["劉部長世芳：是，全世界都公認的。"],["馬委員文君：紀律各方面還有效率其實都非常地好，甚至它並不需要政府再去多做其他的規範，其實反而會綁手綁腳……"],["劉部長世芳：是……"],["馬委員文君：還有沒有？因為我在裡面還有看到黑熊的部分，黑熊學院也在裡面，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，黑熊學院是民間團體，自己在訓練他們自己的民間力量。我們是這樣子，包括像慈濟或是黑熊這些未來要納編，就是如果我們到大規模……"],["馬委員文君：所以他們未來都會在我們的可恃民力裡面，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：也會屬於其中一環，但是是自願性的。"],["馬委員文君：現在所有都是自願性的，你沒有強制力啊！"],["劉部長世芳：對，志工團體都是自願性的。"],["馬委員文君：所以這平時是由內政部來統整？"],["劉部長世芳：民間團體由民間力量自己來協助跟訓練，但是我們剛剛所提到的，如果是義警、義消甚至是替代役訓練的話，內政部就按照法律來訓練，這些訓練會比較有規模，譬如我們要做EMT的訓練……"],["馬委員文君：部長，這個他們本來就在做，他們本來都有……"],["劉部長世芳：對，但是我們希望能夠再精進。"],["馬委員文君：消防也是，因為你還是做初級的，我們現在看到你們做的只是初級的救護訓練……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有……"],["馬委員文君：消防的部分其實他們也都有，其實我聽到地方的召訓算是去年開始，有一些像這樣的協勤單位，他們去年開始可能有接受，去年是1天，今年是2天，他們受的訓練大概就是簡易的救護……"],["劉部長世芳：檢傷救護。"],["馬委員文君：然後還有操作無人機。"],["劉部長世芳：自救，對。"],["馬委員文君：可是他們有很多都已經60歲了，因為現在少子化，其實年輕的並不多，不像以前，其實要參加義消都還要排隊，現在招募的過程其實不像過去那麼多了，可是他們訓練大概就訓練這些，有一些他們說要我們操作無人機做什麼，他這一次的課程就是這樣……"],["劉部長世芳：有些是……"],["馬委員文君：尤其是在很短的時間，那麼多的人，感覺上好像也是在過水一樣，所以我們今天要特別提出來的，這是一個問題，就是它本來其實都已經有在做，尤其你們剛剛唸的這些團體、組織，你們對媒體披露出來的其實還有一些NGO團體，我們比較不知道他們到底要做的是什麼。我現在也要請教，就是他們平時各自大概都有自己的訓練……"],["劉部長世芳：士農工商，各有自己的專業。"],["馬委員文君：所以內政部也沒有什麼角色。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我想跟委員報告，譬如像這一次的風災，我們也是希望這些志工團體願意納進來，所以這次風災有納進來的志工團體，我們慢慢會就它的類別，有納進來的志工團體有多少人，慢慢會做一下統計資料，未來如果碰到譬如像檢傷救護或是其他需要做後勤支援的話，他們願意加進來，我們就會在事前、事後或事中再做訓練或再培訓的工作。"],["馬委員文君：部長，不好意思，我為什麼會說講得很虛無，是因為風災發生的時候，第一時間，尤其在整個過程當中，我們往往都是調動軍人救災，當然如果在戰時，軍人必須要回到本務，作戰這個部分，他根本沒有辦法再來參與救災，或者去幫大家整理傾倒的路樹或者其他的泥沙淤積等等，你現在的這些人力是不是未來要取代做這些工作？這是第一點。第二個，剛剛有提到他們的包紮什麼的，其實我們平常的風災、水災，或者一些災害發生的時候，它是局部性的，如果不是像戰場的情況，大家發生受傷情況，大家會去醫院，不會讓這些人力去做包紮，我覺得這是常識，所以……"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我覺得我需要再說明一下，我想不是這樣的。第一個，現在國軍在救災當中只是支援調度組，真正有災害發生的時候，第一個都是警消在第一線馳援，但是支援調度組包括很多機具，或者是其他後續的這些清消的工作要來協助。"],["馬委員文君：部長，沒關係，因為你講的這個，我就說他們平常已經在做了，火災發生的當下當然是消防義消會去。義警當然是在整個維護上面協助警力，這些本來就在做，我剛剛也講了。"],["劉部長世芳：但是大規模的時候，人數是不夠的。"],["馬委員文君：你說的救災部分，去看看高雄這次發生的時候，它調動一千多名軍人。"],["劉部長世芳：支援組。"],["馬委員文君：即使在營區也發生這樣的風災的情況之下，他們還是去做這些救援，其實沒有運用到其他的人力，我們現在要說的……"],["劉部長世芳：有其他的人力，只是沒有在計算當中而已。"],["馬委員文君：我現在簡單地再請教一下，因為剛剛唸的這些可恃民力有義警義消，就是這些民防團體，一般來說，因為我們現在少子化，尤其像我們現在的教召，教召一般來說，現在時間拉長了，然後它的頻率越來越高，就是因應現在的局勢，所以如果像這樣，義消、義警其實他們是可以不被教召的，現在的替代役因為在你40萬可恃民力裡面，扣掉這些，然後還有我們的替代役，替代役有役政司……"],["劉部長世芳：役政司，或是替代役管理中心。"],["馬委員文君：現在他們會自己教召，現在我想要知道的是，如果這些可恃民力未來比如像這些NGO團體，比如像黑熊學院這樣子的一個團體、組織，未來他們要不要教召？如果他們已經被納管、編制，以後他們要不要教召？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，有關招訓的兩個部分，內政部處理的是替代役，替代役的部分……"],["馬委員文君：部長，不要講替代役，那個我們都知道，已經存在的不用再解釋，我現在要講的是，你剛剛成立這個委員會，這個委員會裡面你又要納編，有40萬的可恃民力，這些可恃民力裡面扣掉占最大主力的，就是替代役跟這些義消、義警等等，他們其實平常就是不用接受教召的，我想要知道的是，如果未來納編以後，像這樣的NGO團體，比如像黑熊學院這樣子的一個NGO的組織，他們要不要接受教召？只要告訴我們要不要就好。"],["劉部長世芳：後備軍人由國防部負責。"],["馬委員文君：要不要？"],["劉部長世芳：後備軍人由國防部負責。"],["馬委員文君：所以他們要嘛，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：後備軍人由國防部負責。"],["馬委員文君：那不是後備軍人，我現在要問的是這一個部分，他們要不要接受教召？因為是內政部管的。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，不是。"],["馬委員文君：如果……"],["劉部長世芳：我們沒有管。"],["馬委員文君：那他們是誰管的？"],["劉部長世芳：他們是自願團體。"],["馬委員文君：那他們是誰管的呢？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員再解釋一下。"],["馬委員文君：部長，你先不要講話。請教院長，這個納編的委員會，我們現在要知道，像義消、義警他們平常做了很多的社會服務工作，他們已經在做了，他們是不需要被教召的，現在有人在傳「我們加入黑熊，是不是我們就不需要教召」，這個變成是他可以逃避教召的一個管道，可不可以？這個可不可以？院長，請在這裡明確地讓大家知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：這完全沒有辦法重疊跟取代，每一個不同的團體都有它的主管機關，會負責它平常的業務，這個都不會受影響，或許我們在地方大型演練的時候，會有一些基本的訓練，但是這還沒有做到細部的計畫。為什麼會有40萬的民力？因為大型災害來臨的時候，可能在很多的地點，可能在交通受阻的地方，可能要出現非常緊急的救援，這個都不是用現在這個分散的單位就可以處理的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，南投縣曾經發生九二一大地震，在這麼大的一個天然災害裡面，其實大家會互助，那已經是每個人都動起來。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以要做得更好。"],["馬委員文君：當然，我們知道，你們剛剛提到的那個都沒有問題，所謂的做到更好是要怎麼做，應該告訴大家怎麼做，然後怎麼規劃。我剛剛問的問題是，如果你們在40萬可恃民力裡面納編，我只是舉個例，除了扣掉本來就不需要教召的這些人力以外，以後會不會因為加入委員會相關的組織就可以不需要教召？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前是不會增加。"],["馬委員文君：不會嘛！好，我們需要的是這樣的答案。","另外，我們看到國軍常備部隊目前已經低於20萬人，未來再加上1年期義務役，也許可以到達25萬人，全國可徵用的列管後備總人數大概兩百餘萬人；可是按照國防部目前的資料，針對退伍8年內可以列管的役男大概有76萬，每年招訓的員額大概是26萬，也就是現在在徵召、動員實施時，在徵召期間對於徵召勤務還有軍需生產人力，是召集退伍8年內的後備軍人，大概就是76萬人，再加上常備部隊25萬人左右，可以用的就是100萬人，作戰的時候，這100萬人是可以用的。我為什麼要特別提出來？過去沒有像這樣把他們混在一起，剛剛你提的可恃民力，也就是在這個委員會裡面，其實他們有些工作項目跟動員實施階段中軍方的任務有些重疊，所以到時候可能會發生一些混亂的狀況。","我想請教的是，如果戰時部隊耗損的時候，補充人力要從哪裡來？"],["卓院長榮泰：基本上這40萬民力不會參與剛剛說的那樣的活動跟那樣的任務，他們主要是在訓練、從事剛剛說過的協助收容、緊急救援以及秩序維護。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我為什麼特別提到，就是因為現在大家會覺得你準備的好像是戰爭的狀況，所以我特別提出來，在剛剛那40萬人裡面，其實是跟我們的戰爭……沒有，就是我們的後備體系可能會被納到常備部隊，一起參與作戰，如果在梯隊耗損以後，其實通常會從這些人去調度人力，可是現在重複了，現在比較擔心的是未來會怎麼樣區隔？怎麼樣補充這些人力？是不是在近期內，行政院可以做一個更完整的補充說明？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員這麼關心民力的培訓，我們一起把事情做得更好，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，接下來請登記第15號林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議議事日程報告事項第3案委員翁曉玲等23人\n擬具「憲法訴訟法第三十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、第4案委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「國家\n通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」案，院會所作決定，提出復議。是否有當，敬請\n公決─ 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院長您知道嗎來 院長您回答一下知道 當天都有看到報告"},{"start":78.325,"end":105.761,"text":"警政單位也做了必要的處分我們知道說他在西門町鬧事之後我們的移民署跟臺北市警局馬上就做處理也在當天的時候到軍樂飯店裡面把相關的書面文件提供給他請他要離開因為我們發現說他到臺灣來的目的跟他原來所申請的項目不符合"},{"start":106.281,"end":125.493,"text":"所以在當天的時候就臺北市警局還有移民署就做了處理第二天就請他回去中國我第二天就請他回去中國這樣算上來我們中華民國的臺灣有夠優先的也對人很客氣的這如果發生在中國的時候又不是這樣你有看到我們李明澤去到中國"},{"start":135.188,"end":137.513,"text":"你知不知道,他才用一個民權運動而已,還讓他們過五天"},{"start":143.015,"end":155.782,"text":"部長 院長 在這個 我覺得這個 輕輕鬆鬆說他們發生這樣來臺灣 這樣扯回去而已我相信未來會越來越嚴重當然他要來的時間可能我們不這麼簡單可以讓他來 因為已經住制了表示在臺灣做到議員來說的目的不一樣 我絕對要禁止他再來"},{"start":169.73,"end":174.112,"text":"他主席時﹐他要來時﹐他就是因為探親﹐他們若有在台灣﹐結果﹐沒理由若調查起來﹐他們若有設委﹐已經回到他們﹐祖國﹐的中國了"},{"start":190.04,"end":213.445,"text":"所以在這裏的審核是不是有帶有缺點的你看他們有沒有登記以來沒有住在台灣這塊土地他沒有住在台灣喔,中華民國喔但是他是11屆來到台灣的"},{"start":218.599,"end":228.004,"text":"結果他們來發聲的事是10月7日﹖他們若有回應他們祖國的信﹖是7月回應的啦"},{"start":229.612,"end":252.195,"text":"跟委員報告,我們現在對中國大陸人士來台的這個探親的這個簽證的核准的期間都是6個月專業人士也是6個月,商務人士也是6個月這個6個月就是說我發證給你這個6個月內有效您剛剛提到的很重要就是說"},{"start":253.296,"end":254.457,"text":"他申請的時候他母親在但是他來探親的時候母親不在"},{"start":272.702,"end":274.903,"text":"對啦 我覺得不是出境而已"},{"start":297.13,"end":309.14,"text":"因為他這個對台灣的應用很大的你看人們在那裡的飯碗中,他們兩個紅帽在那裡亂我也是在那裡批論,那這個規限在大陸那時候、中國那時候,那要整個頭髮洗什麼"},{"start":319.665,"end":341.3,"text":"委員我們是自由民主法治的國家我們不像中國大陸但是您提到的對於簽證核發的管理我們要加強包括用抽查等等機制這才是問題啦他要探親的時候是因為他老婆嘛我們的保證的時候他的中間他老婆已經回去我講幾次了啦已經回去他祖國啦"},{"start":345.043,"end":358.6,"text":"就等於他要申請來台灣的探親的條件已經不存在了所以你未來會讓我可以更正確的因為我覺得未來因為我們現在"},{"start":365.068,"end":367.129,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":388.035,"end":392.796,"text":"在這個規定當中 我也覺得這個打仗這個規定"},{"start":410.543,"end":430.58,"text":"院長有需要,要如何修法,我相信無分第一檔,無分你是北部的立委,還是南部的立委都為了這個打仗來發表,院長弟弟歡迎來賓,我們同過修法"},{"start":433.342,"end":445.989,"text":"你在5月10日的時候﹐你有說過什麼你敢問一件﹐這個打仗的問題﹐列在我們武打企業裡面﹐重要的打仗是要防衛的﹐要防衛﹐因為因為你有說到﹐想要拚的﹐也沒辦法拚﹐已經拚的﹐也會抓到"},{"start":458.456,"end":459.457,"text":"委員長 抱歉 院長抱歉"},{"start":485.765,"end":510.02,"text":"王委員回答一下7月底我們通過這個打詐新市法令對我們內政部經濟事務所負責的大部分都在第一算所以我們現在大量在做宣傳有關165的部分然後我們今天新公布的這個打詐儀表板9月份打詐的這個案件數跟財損數跟8月份比起來已經下降很多下降很多15%15%15%不對"},{"start":514.605,"end":514.805,"text":"王美惠議員"},{"start":533.551,"end":533.571,"text":"委員長"},{"start":563.154,"end":589.407,"text":"你這樣看就知道你會怕嗎當然會啦當然會嘛齁這個議票版就是要讓大家知道說現在這個情形在社會上很嚴重因為這個受理的表現跟過去我們說表現出來是不一樣的計算跟統計的措施啦現在我們有新的標準但是照這個標準轉來去打現在打詐釋法通過以後我們在法律我們有工具我們透過科技"},{"start":590.621,"end":599.085,"text":"我們透過跨國合作來偵辦 很多問題在走 但是我知道 事情要不會很好?事情要不會很好 本席跟你在這裡說 他剛才這段時間 本席剛才有15分鐘 一定說10分鐘在這個過程當中 本席15分鐘說完的時候"},{"start":615.342,"end":626.951,"text":"我們的詐騙集團﹐在75分鐘內﹐就騙獎金要450萬所以﹐院長﹐不怪本席若你說﹐說你會怕嗎?真的 我覺得 你說﹐跟部長都一樣的我們希望若受你做政客﹐剛才院長說的﹐是核詐"},{"start":641.857,"end":652.578,"text":"做不健康﹚現在做健康﹚還是以前的統計﹚不一樣﹚因為我覺得以前的款﹚"},{"start":653.729,"end":681.408,"text":"議員長"},{"start":682.265,"end":682.826,"text":"發言委員：王美惠"},{"start":700.689,"end":706.094,"text":"若陪禮內有10人﹖就是有10人﹖是不是普通?我現在是用這種新的統計方式本席再來請教﹖若想說長久不陪禮的錢"},{"start":718.325,"end":740.555,"text":"有過有過 這統計跟有一樣這就是報案的人 他們自己覺得他們都騙這麼多錢都列進去放在打債儀表板每一天公佈的數字但是你真正進入要刑案再辦的時候就會變成我們下面所說的公佈的數字所以不太一樣但是因為這個院長交代我們盡量把黑數把它消除掉"},{"start":741.015,"end":741.455,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":757.851,"end":772.525,"text":"王美惠是民運代表：因為北省所看好的：就是說我錢不便宜：不管你幾隻好：一百隻好：一千隻好：我最溫暖的就是我錢要怎樣：這才是重要"},{"start":780.152,"end":796.827,"text":"你說破案,破10件、100件﹖對王理事長、王法事長﹖這位老師、這位退休的人都沒有做問題你如果他的職業不便宜﹖最不可以拖一半回來﹖他一定會這樣"},{"start":798.388,"end":801.51,"text":"委員有兩種感 委員報告 第一項就是攔阻"},{"start":814.258,"end":827.263,"text":"有很多人要去ATM 或是要去銀行 要去指教詐騙集團的人 警察和銀行的人 會在那裡被封鎖 那就表示錢沒了不起 這是一種方式另外一種就是說你已經進入警察機關 或是法務部在進展過程當中 你要等到所有警察機構在後 你才可以要求說這件事可以退還給你 這些程序呢我們的法務部和其他相關的單位 都有一個執法在進行當中"},{"start":843.05,"end":857.236,"text":"委員 我知道實話當中﹝對﹞因為我覺得我們要有問題站出來我們要有辦法去改善 大家能夠做得好 讓他們走像你說的 騙得到也騙不到了 要留下來在這方面 我覺得大家的心 你們都要繼續加油在這方面 我跟議員勉勵一下 就是說"},{"start":873.002,"end":893.106,"text":"我們立法院也想很多個法案在我們最近為了人民的福利我相信部長跟院長跟在座的包括我們的院長、韓院長也好都很高興未來這個議程要怎麼去處理比較好因為我身為嘉義市我也要嘉義市"},{"start":901.447,"end":902.887,"text":"謝謝委員我一定要這樣做"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:46:24 - 15:01:52","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155257","gazette":{"lineno":114,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（14時46分）主席，我們請院長跟部長。"],["主席：麻煩卓院長備詢。"],["王委員美惠：我們內政部長。"],["主席：麻煩內政部劉部長請備詢。"],["王委員美惠：還有陸委會。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["王委員美惠：院長你好，部長好。本席在今天的質詢當中，第一點先來跟你們討論一下，10月1日有香港人在西門町舉辦活動，在這個活動中反對中國的國慶，不過不知道為什麼突然有一對夫妻來鬧事，尤其這對夫妻來自中國，這件事情，院長你們知道嗎？來，院長，你回答一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：知道，當天都有看相當多的報導。"],["王委員美惠：你知道嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：警政單位也做了必要的處分。"],["王委員美惠：怎麼處分？"],["劉部長世芳：我可以跟委員補充嗎？我們知道他在西門町鬧事之後，移民署跟臺北市警局馬上就處理，也在當天到君悅飯店把相關的書面文件提供給他，請他離開，因為我們發現他到臺灣來的目的跟他原來申請的項目不符合，所以當天臺北市警局還有移民署就做了處理，第二天就請他回去中國。"],["王委員美惠：第二天就請他回去中國。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["王委員美惠：這樣算一算我們中華民國臺灣有夠友善的，也對人家很客氣，這如果發生在中國的話就不是這樣了，你有看到李明哲去中國，你知道嗎？他只是用一個民權運動而已，就被他們關5年。部長、院長，我覺得這如果輕輕鬆鬆，他們來臺灣鬧只有這樣請他回去而已，我相信未來會愈來愈嚴重，尤其……"],["劉部長世芳：當然他以後要來的時間，可能我們沒有那麼簡單可以讓他來，因為已經註記了，表示他在臺灣做的跟他原來說的目的不一樣，我們絕對要禁止他再來臺灣。"],["王委員美惠：對，部長，註記的時候，他要來就是因為探親嘛！他媽媽在臺灣嘛！結果沒想到調查起來，他媽媽7月已經回到他們的祖國中國了，所以部長，這當中我們的審核是不是有缺點呢？你看他媽媽長期以來沒有住在臺灣這塊土地，他沒有常常住在臺灣、中華民國喔！不過他是依親來到臺灣的，他們來了之後發生事情是在10月1號，他媽媽回去他們祖國的時候是7月回去的……"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告……"],["王委員美惠：你要回答嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，我跟委員報告，我們現在對中國大陸人士來臺探親的簽證核准期間都是六個月，專業人士也是六個月，商務人士也是六個月，這個六個月就是我發證給你，六個月內有效。您剛剛提到的很重要，就是他申請的時候父母親在……"],["王委員美惠：是啊，我知道，但在這六個月的期間，你也要知道他的探親申請是因為他媽媽才要來探親的，不過他媽媽已經回去他們祖國了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，他申請的時候，他母親在，但是他來探親的時候，母親不在，所以……"],["王委員美惠：這才是問題，他要來探親的人已經不在臺灣，你們還可以讓他進來嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：就是與我們核准的許可目的不符合……"],["王委員美惠：這個問題你們要去瞭解、去管控啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們取消他的入臺許可跟入臺證，然後立即強制出境。"],["王委員美惠：對啦，我覺得不是出境而已，因為他這樣對臺灣的影響很大，你看人家在那邊辦活動，他們兩個夫妻在那邊鬧，我比喻一下，如果發生在大陸、在中國，那要關到頭髮長蝨母了耶！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，委員，我們是自由民主、法治的國家，我們不像中國大陸。但是您提到的對於簽證核發的管理，我們要加強，包括用抽查等等機制。"],["王委員美惠：這才是問題啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：他要來探親是因為要看他媽媽嘛，在這半年期間他媽媽已經回去，我講好幾次了，已經回去他祖國了，就等於他要申請來臺灣探親的條件已經不存在了啦！所以你們未來核發要更正確一點啦。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們會再加強。"],["王委員美惠：因為我們現在沒有陸客嘛，就是讓他們用探親的條件來嘛，不能放鬆……"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們會強化安全管理。"],["王委員美惠：要嚴格去審核啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：請主委回去。再來，院長、部長，你有看到這個詐騙橫行，沒辦法擋了，就是橫著走，沒辦法擋了啦！鄉親賺錢都白費了。我覺得在打詐的這個過程中，院長需要考量要怎麼樣來修法，我相信不分哪個黨、不分你是北部的立委還是南部的立委，都為了打詐來打拚。院長，在立法院裡面我們通過四法，你在5月上任的時候，有關這個打詐的問題，你有說過什麼你還記得嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：列在我們五打七安裡面，重要的打詐是要防衛的。"],["王委員美惠：要防衛啦。因為院長你有提到，想要騙的也沒能力騙，已經騙的也會抓到，騙的錢也沒地方花。我要請教院長，你在上任時所宣示的，到目前為止，尤其在7月底我們的法案已經實施了，有什麼效果出來嗎？請院長還是部長回答一下。"],["劉部長世芳：我先……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在……"],["劉部長世芳：院長，不好意思。我先跟王委員回答一下，7月底通過打詐新四法之後，我們內政部警政署所負責的大部分都在第一線，所以我們現在大量在宣傳有關165的部分，然後我們今天新公布的打詐儀錶板，9月份打詐的案件數跟財損數，跟8月份比起來已經下降很多。"],["王委員美惠：下降很多？"],["劉部長世芳：15%。"],["王委員美惠：15%？"],["劉部長世芳：15%！"],["王委員美惠：部長，今天8號嘛，昨天6號嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：昨天7號。"],["王委員美惠：昨天7號嘛，前天6號啦，這兩天你們救災跟質詢也很忙，你要來開會的時候有看到你們公布的資料嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有，「打詐儀錶板」是每天發布的。"],["王委員美惠：對，每天發布嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：但是你繼續看第2頁、第3頁，那是一個月、一個月的統計，我剛才跟你報告的……"],["王委員美惠：我就是要跟部長跟院長說，我看了嚇一跳耶！6號統計被騙兩億多，6號喔，但昨天統計被騙五億多啦！院長，你看到這個會害怕嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然會啦。"],["王委員美惠：當然會嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們這個儀錶板就是要讓大家知道現在這個情形在社會上多嚴重，因為這個數字的呈現跟我們過去所顯示出來的是不一樣的計算與統計數字，現在有新的標準，然後照這個標準全力打詐。現在打詐四法通過以後，我們在法律方面有工具，我們透過科技來偵辦，我們透過跨國合作來偵辦，很多方法在執行，但是我知道成績還沒有很好！"],["王委員美惠：成績還沒有很好啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，一定要再打拚、努力。"],["王委員美惠：院長，本席在這裡跟你說，從剛剛開始本席這段質詢時間有15分鐘，已經講了10分鐘，在這個過程當中，等本席15分鐘講完的時候，詐騙集團在這15分鐘內就騙了將近450萬！院長，所以本席要問你會怕嗎？我認為你、我跟部長都一樣，我們都希望數字統計正確，如同剛剛院長說的，是以前統計不正確，現在統計正確，還是以前的統計方式不一樣？我覺得打詐新法通過後，所看的卻好像越來越多！院長，這要怎麼處理呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一是統計的方式不一樣。"],["王委員美惠：統計的方式不一樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：計算的方式不一樣，但是我也相信現在的案件不會比過去少，因為太多事情透過各種方式都跑出來，現在就是透過這個法律來全力打詐！"],["王委員美惠：院長，以這個法律全力打詐，當中如同本席剛剛跟你說的，為什麼我們實施新法之後案件會愈來愈多？我聽到部長說不是這樣，是因為一個案件裡面如果騙了10個人就算是10件，部長，你們是不是這樣統計？"],["劉部長世芳：對，我們現在是用這種新的統計方式，跟以前不一樣。"],["王委員美惠：你們現在用這種新的統計方式？"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["王委員美惠：本席再來請教，像昨天統計被騙的錢有五億多，這個統計方式一樣嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：這就是報案的人自己覺得被騙這麼多錢，我們都列進去放在「打詐儀錶板」每一天公布數字，但是真正進入刑案偵辦的時候，就會變成我們下面所說的公布數字，所以不太一樣。這是院長交代的，我們儘量把黑數消除掉，讓大家覺得我們臺灣目前警政的重點在打詐，讓大家知道它的嚴重性！但是我們也看到很多第一線同仁的努力，現在9月跟8月比起來確實已經有下降百分之十五左右。"],["王委員美惠：院長、部長，本席是民意代表、是從基層出身的，百姓擔心的就是錢被騙了，不管總共幾件，100件也好，1,000件也好，他們最擔心的就是錢要怎麼討回來，這才是最重要的！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["王委員美惠：你談到破案，就算破10件、100件，對歐吉桑、歐巴桑、這些老師、這些退休的人都沒有幫助！當他的錢被騙了，就算只能討回一半，他一定對你們比大拇指，有感啦！不過到目前為止，院長、部長，很少錢能討回來，是不是這樣？部長、院長，要不要回答一下？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，有兩種方法，第一項就是攔阻，很多人會去ATM或是銀行，把錢交給詐騙集團，警察跟銀行的人會先在那邊把他擋起來，那就表示沒賠錢，這是一種方式，另外一種是已經進入警察機關或是法務部偵查的過程當中，要等到所有偵查有結果以後，才可以要求把這些錢退還給你，這些程序法務部跟其他相關單位都有一個子法在進行當中，所以……"],["王委員美惠：我知道是在子法當中，院長，我覺得我們要把問題提出來，我們才有辦法去改善，把打詐做得更好一點，讓他們會怕啦！就像你說的，騙得到也花不到，要把他抓起來啦！我覺得打詐這部分，你我都要繼續加油。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員美惠：我跟院長勉勵一下，我們立法院也修了很多法案，最近為了人民的福利，我相信部長、院長跟在座的，包括韓院長也好，都很煩惱，未來這個預算要怎麼去處理比較好，因為我是為了嘉義市，我也要嘉義市的補助預算跟建設預算能夠早日投入嘉義市的建設，所以希望院長多費心，多跟所有的在野聯繫，可以趕快把預算處理好，早日完成所有地方的建設，以上。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，我一定會這麼做。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，現在在旁聽席上二樓貴賓室來自於美國國會助理訪問團，我們掌聲歡迎。","接下來請登記第14號馬文君委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議議事日程報告事項第3案委員翁曉玲等23人\n擬具「憲法訴訟法第三十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、第4案委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「國家\n通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」案，院會所作決定，提出復議。是否有當，敬請\n公決─ 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路委員好曾主委你知道明天有23位主任要到辦公室找我嗎我知道是關於"},{"start":158.101,"end":183.206,"text":"關於什麼事情應該是坎納卡納夫族的族群委員的事情對當然不是只有坎納卡納夫的成員有表達強烈的不滿那希望你心裡面能夠接受因為他們提出的這些心裡面的人選是他們開過會他們認為這些人是最適合擔任族群委員的人選可是原民會完全漠視他們的提案"},{"start":184.522,"end":185.924,"text":"因為我知道民進黨是執政黨所以我"},{"start":200.339,"end":215.587,"text":"很客氣的提了兩個推薦可是你們也沒有提出你們的想法也沒有提出你們拒絕的理由也沒有把優劣或者說你們禁用的人是因為是什麼樣的原因而禁用也沒有給本席一個答案"},{"start":216.581,"end":241.527,"text":"我會跟委員報告提出來的這個人選我們沒有什麼黨派的這個考慮希望他能夠為族人多做一點事情這兩個族群找我提供的名單都是他們內部的族群裡面去開過會認為這個人最適合我們才會提報上去我們不可能隨便找一個路人甲來提報啊所以我的意思是說你當時用了A你應該告訴我這A是"},{"start":242.347,"end":248.991,"text":"行政院長我這邊要提醒的就是我們原住民主健康法在112年5月26號三讀通過也在6月21號公佈他要有一個專責單位管理我們原住民主健康"},{"start":270.403,"end":270.923,"text":"盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一"},{"start":288.77,"end":298.894,"text":"謝謝委員我會請主委跟委員多多的請教如何來提升原住民族朋友在健康的問題因為委員是醫生很了解這個事情"},{"start":306.025,"end":328.423,"text":"當然我今天的主題是在還是在進法補償是但因為很多委員都提過不過還是要再提我的論述我們台灣的地形的關係那目前我先考一個問題好了主委你知道我們森林覆蓋是多少幾萬公頃嗎森林覆蓋森林覆蓋台灣的森林覆蓋的範圍"},{"start":329.656,"end":336.721,"text":"210萬公頃將近六成臺灣大概都是在這樣的範圍原名會有11萬我們原住民的是大概7.2萬左右如果今年會增加到7.7也就是18萬在所有森林裡面210萬裡面的18萬公頃也沒有很多"},{"start":355.134,"end":355.154,"text":"盧縣一"},{"start":376.874,"end":401.661,"text":"因為當初舊好茶要辦到新好茶的時候很多老人家說不能辦到新好茶因為那是以前是湖泊那是因為我們幾千年生活在這個土地的一個智慧結果沒有多久它不是整個都滅村了嗎現在已經遷到你那裡舊好茶的命運就是因為我們後來的政府沒有去採納我們原住民的智慧啊不是嗎"},{"start":403.612,"end":431.839,"text":"才會一而再再而三的遷徙一直到現在的李娜理好那我們一再而三的講進法補償就是他是補償不是補助他的原則是這樣不是嗎是好那我們從2015年說兩萬塊一公頃好我來調高到三萬塊那我我知道主委院長一直一直在說你願意接受四萬塊那請問你的四萬塊的論調是什麼你的基礎是什麼"},{"start":432.66,"end":434.722,"text":"我想知道你認為4萬塊的理由是什麼"},{"start":461.457,"end":488.762,"text":"我認為循序漸進可以達到慢慢的達到那樣的一個境界跟地步當初我們在還在委員會的時候在討論的時候我有提出一個論述待會會說那我們先從碳會開始講好了碳會我們昨天有公佈也就是10月7號我們環境部有公佈我們碳會是一公噸300塊可是我在看文獻的時候有一個文獻叫做World Bank也就是世界銀行的"},{"start":489.369,"end":516.232,"text":"他在5月29號就已經公告我們的碳匯的錢是9塊美金也就是說他比我們提早好幾個月知道說我們的我們的匯率是多少那我們還要還要等環境部來公佈嗎好他9塊錢就算了但我們當然是這可以接受從低到高可是我們比大陸還還還低北京是15塊然後最高的是我們要跟最高的比的話是烏拉圭是167塊"},{"start":517.543,"end":543.312,"text":"你烏拉圭是高度開發國家嗎不是所以我的意思是說你們在無論在計算這個費用或者是說做這個評比的時候你們都沒有原住民的一個委員在裡面我知道3月13號有公佈21名的審議委員探費的審議委員裡面沒有一個專家學者或者是人民團體是原住民代表"},{"start":543.888,"end":572.591,"text":"那燙費這麼一個重要的事情我希望明年度的一個委員裡面能夠採納一個原住民的專家學者可以嗎 院長我會跟環境部本部長來研究如果讓現在如果有疏忽的意見能夠趕緊納進去那麼未來在組織在人員在調整的過程當中我們能夠多多聽聽各位各方的聲音從剛剛那個圖表是說世界上各國的一個燙費的"},{"start":574.413,"end":596.763,"text":"規範的從幾塊錢到一百多塊多也就是參加幾十倍也就是說這個市場還是個新興的市場那我們從一個圖表來看的二零二零一五年到二零一九年才短短的四年時間已經翻翻了好幾倍他的平均值也就是說如果我們就講進法補償我為什麼會或者說為什麼會有這樣子一個趨勢"},{"start":599.48,"end":629.024,"text":"是以前低估了現在我們是不過是讓他能夠恢復到正常的一個所謂的補償那為什麼呢我從以下幾個論述來看他第一個他還是在生計的時候尋求生計的時候森林作為一個生活場域的時候他可以佔了一般就是落後國家比如說新巴威啦或者是一些他上面所表列的國家他森林可以負擔他40%以上的生活條件"},{"start":629.701,"end":657.577,"text":"好 第二個也就是說如果他是商機的時候如果一個企業家他認為這個森林他覆蓋了很多也許他裡面有很多珍貴的藥材或者說他可以從裡面竊取很多生物的物質或者是說去做一些研發他的價值可以從好 可以從裡面沒有關係可是他可以到9177塊每公頃的美金也就是說這是他的商機的部分那如果說就間接的一個間接的所謂的"},{"start":659.658,"end":684.652,"text":"價值的話如果他是一個水域的保護或者說水質的一個品質保證的話他大概可以落在800多塊或者200多塊這樣的一個區塊這是一公頃美金的一個價格這是水域或者是供水的一個value那如果就CO2二氧化碳一個碳的存底來看的話下一頁"},{"start":686.564,"end":714.824,"text":"他大概就落在一公頃是兩千美金這是2001年的一個研究也就是說我們長期低估了探底存在這個生理那個這個市場這樣的一個價值所以我們一直都沒有認為說這個生理的保護是多麼重要可是現在這是一個世界的一個所謂的趨勢大家要去知道說原來這個他的價值是在這裡因為他是有維護我們"},{"start":716.452,"end":743.022,"text":"這個生態阿或者是說避免暖化這些一個他的優厚的力量所以他的價格是這樣阿如果說他是原始的2830阿如果是變成後來變成轉農作的話會會變成790然後permanent如果變成農業的話變成630阿如果是牧場會變成630630630對那意思說如果他是沒有沒有耕作的話他大概都在2000塊左右的一個價值"},{"start":745.014,"end":774.083,"text":"那我是上次我們在委員會討論的時候是提了這個論述最後一個就是在他圖表就是他所謂的option value就是說有些國家是進步到說他已經有些力能的概念或者說他有環保的意識他認為他可以付5美金來維持巴西的森林他用這樣的概念去算的話其實這個所謂的間接的價值也存在"},{"start":774.642,"end":801.528,"text":"所以他這個價值呢可以到5塊錢可以到12塊美金所以他的total在最後一頁你看他有所謂的當然不要講伐木當然有他的價值可是伐木的價值如果一存在的話那個所謂的climate benefit就沒有了所以也就是說你這邊是1000然後這樣加加種種加上他的一些休憩加上一些他的生物多樣性或者是說"},{"start":802.663,"end":803.063,"text":"盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一"},{"start":830.373,"end":852.827,"text":"院長你一個概念就是說我們是希望能夠補足以前沒有補足到的而且你知道進化補償是105年才開始那105年以前呢我們一直都是這個森林的主人是這個土地的主人我們沒有說我們要求那麼多我們是從現在開始先補足而且我們這次的修法的重點是每兩年調整一次不是你講的明天就調到12萬"},{"start":854.226,"end":854.306,"text":"主委"},{"start":882.635,"end":889.058,"text":"盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?盧楷族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說?"},{"start":912.677,"end":924.243,"text":"所以我們的世界觀裡面我們的想法裡面沒有去求別人希望你能夠再三的而三的去想一下你自己的思維可以嗎是謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:30:27 - 14:45:54","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155256","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（14時30分）主席，有請海洋委員會主委。"],["主席：麻煩請原委會主委。"],["盧委員縣一：不是，海洋委員會主委。"],["主席：海洋委員會管主委請備詢。"],["盧委員縣一：管主委好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：昨天下午蘭嶼鄉公所有舉辦一個直播。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["盧委員縣一：也就是關於我們巴貝多籍……"],["管主任委員碧玲：有一個說明會，是。"],["盧委員縣一：對，貨輪擱淺的事情，我後來就詢問環境部的官員，他說這不是他們管轄的事情，說是屬於海洋委員會，他說沒有成立危機應變小組，所以他們不便介入，這件事情的後續，你的作為是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好的，謝謝盧委員的關心，跟盧委員報告，這艘船是海難事件，根據我們的災害防救，它的應變中心是由交通部航港局來主持召開，但是我們海洋委員會海保署在裡面是一個非常重要的小組……"],["盧委員縣一：因為他們非常擔心漏油的事件。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，因為最重要的就是污染的防治。"],["盧委員縣一：希望這個污染防治能夠不要影響他們明年飛魚季的捕獲。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，所以我們今天早上已經開始抽油。"],["盧委員縣一：OK！"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，在整個過程當中，在風雨交加的時候，我們都日以繼夜的在把物資集中……"],["盧委員縣一：你知道當初的船員是誰來救他們，或者是誰給他們提供物資或食材嗎？都是當地的人。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這次是空勤總隊的飛機載著我們海巡的吊掛小隊，然後把19個人吊掛救回來，救回來以後……這一艘船擱淺，擱淺以後就斷掉了，好在它斷的這個地方不是油艙的地方……"],["盧委員縣一：沒有關係，我的意思就是後續污染的事情能夠儘量預防，因為蘭嶼是我們最珍貴的一個旅遊地點。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們非常非常的憂心，也非常非常的努力，都做到三更半夜。"],["盧委員縣一：是，謝謝主委，主委請回。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：有請行政院長。"],["主席：麻煩請行政院卓院長備詢。"],["盧委員縣一：院長好。"],["卓院長榮泰：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：曾主委，你知道明天有23位族人要到辦公室找我嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我知道。"],["盧委員縣一：是關於什麼事情？"],["曾主任委員智勇：應該是Kanakanavu族的族群委員的事情。"],["盧委員縣一：對，當然不是只有Kanakanavu的成員有表達強烈的不滿，希望你心裡面能夠接受，因為他們提出的這些心裡面的人選，是他們開過會且認為這些人是最適合擔任族群委員的人選，可是原民會完全漠視他們的提案。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，不是說漠視他們的提案，因為整個的族人，這麼多優秀的人才，難免會有遺珠之憾，但是我們儘量的……"],["盧委員縣一：因為我知道民進黨是執政黨，所以我很客氣的提了兩個推薦，可是你們也沒有提出你們的想法，也沒有提出你們拒絕的理由，對於把優劣或者說你們進用的人因為什麼樣的原因而進用，也沒有給本席一個答案。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我會跟委員報告，提出來的人選我們沒有什麼黨派的考慮。"],["盧委員縣一：是啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：只是希望他能夠為族人多做一點事情。"],["盧委員縣一：這兩個族群找我提供的名單，都是他們內部的族群裡面去開過會，認為這個人最適合，我們才會提報上去，我們不可能隨便找一個路人甲來提報。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：所以我的意思是說，你當時用了A，你應該告訴我A是比B好多少，還是怎麼樣的一個優劣條件讓你進用，讓人家可以心服口服說你用了這個B。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，這個我會跟委員回報，好不好？"],["盧委員縣一：OK！行政院長，我這邊要提醒的就是我們原住民族健康法在112年5月26號三讀通過，也在6月21號公布，要有一個專責單位管理原住民族的健康，我一直希望這個單位能夠是司級或處級的等級，而不是現行的一個科，希望你把這件事情放在心裡面。今天不是質詢衛福部，可是原住民族健康的問題應該跟原民會也有關係，所以我在這邊提出來，院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我會請主委跟委員多多請教如何提升原住民族朋友的健康問題，因為委員是醫生，很了解這個事情。"],["盧委員縣一：公布已經超過一年了，明年就要邁入第二年，希望這個專責單位能夠早點出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員。"],["盧委員縣一：好。當然我今天的主題還是在禁伐補償，這很多委員都有提過，不過我還是要再提出我的論述。臺灣因為地形關係……我先考你一個問題好了，主委，你知道我們的森林覆蓋是幾萬公頃嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：森林覆蓋？"],["盧委員縣一：對，森林覆蓋，臺灣的森林覆蓋範圍。"],["曾主任委員智勇：整個來講，大概是……"],["盧委員縣一：210萬公頃，將近六成，我們臺灣大概就是在這樣的範圍，其中原民會有11萬，原住民的大概是7.2萬左右，今年可能會增加到7.7萬，合計是18萬；210萬公頃的森林占18萬，其實也沒有很多，我最主要的用意是說，我們長期居住的地方都在山上，大家有共同的生活經驗，雖然無論到哪裡都非常不方便，可是我們的生活智慧跟生活領域，都是跟這片土地有關、跟這片山林有關，所以我們可以說是這個森林的守護者，可以這麼說，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["盧委員縣一：當初舊好茶要搬到新好茶的時候，很多老人家都說不能搬到新好茶，因為那裡以前是湖泊，那是我們幾千年生活在這片土地的一個智慧，果然沒有多久，它不就整個滅村了，現在改遷到禮納里。舊好茶的命運就是因為當初政府沒有採納我們原住民的智慧，不是嗎？才會一而再、再而三的遷徙，一直到現在的禮納里。好，我們一再的講禁伐補償是補償不是補助，原則是這樣，不是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：從2015年說2萬塊一公頃，後來調高到3萬塊，我知道卓院長一直表示你願意接受4萬塊，請問你4萬塊的論調是什麼？你的基礎是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，任何的補償、補助跟福利措施都一樣，應該朝合理的方向去進展，但是也應該考量國家的財政，能夠循序漸進，我們很難期待一步到位。我知道再多的補償，對原住民的這種精神、領域、文化或生活都無法達成百分之百，但我們希望能夠盡最大的力量。"],["盧委員縣一：我想知道你認為4萬塊的理由是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為循序漸進，可以慢慢的達到那樣的境界跟地步。"],["盧委員縣一：當初這個問題還在委員會討論的時候，我有提出一個論述，這我待會再說，現在我們先從碳費開始講好了。碳費昨天公布，也就是10月7號環境部公布1公噸300元，可是我發現有一個World Bank，也就是世界銀行的文獻，它在5月29號就已經公告我們的碳費是9塊美金，也就是說，它比我們提早好幾個月知道我們的費率是多少，那我們還要等環境部來公布嗎？好，它提到9塊錢就算了，當然我們可以接受從低到高，可是我們比大陸還低，北京是15塊，然後跟最高的國家相比，最高是烏拉圭的167塊，烏拉圭是高度開發國家嗎？不是！我的意思是，你們無論在計算這個費用，或者在做評比的時候，都沒有原住民的委員在裡面，我知道3月13號有公布21名碳費審議委員，裡面沒有一個專家、學者或者人民團體是原住民代表。碳費這麼一個重要的事情，我希望明年度的委員裡面，能夠採納一位原住民的專家、學者。院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會跟環境部彭部長來研究，如果有疏忽的意見能夠趕緊納進去，未來在組織、人員調整的過程當中，我們能夠多多聽聽各方的聲音。"],["盧委員縣一：從剛才那個圖表，也就是說世界上各國碳費的規範，從幾塊錢到一百多塊都有，相差幾十倍，也就是說這個市場也是一個新興市場。我們從一個圖表來看，2015年到2019年，才短短4年的時間，它的平均值已經翻了好幾倍。如果我們就講禁伐補償，為什麼會doubling或者說為什麼會有這樣的趨勢？是以前低估了，現在我們不過是讓它能夠恢復到所謂正常的補償，為什麼呢？我從以下幾個論述來看，第一個，它還是在尋求生計的時候，森林作為一個生活場域的時候，它可以占一般落後國家，比如說辛巴威或者是一些它上面所表列的國家，森林可以負擔40%以上的生活條件。第二個，它是商機的時候，如果一個企業家認為這個森林覆蓋了很多，也許它裡面有很多珍貴的藥材或生物，他可以從裡面取得很多生物的物質或者是說去做一些研發，它的價值可以從零沒有關係，可是它可以到每公頃9,177塊美金，也就是說這是他的商機部分；就間接價值的話，如果它是一個水域的保護或者水質的品質保證的話，它大概可以落在八百多塊或是兩百多塊這樣的一個區塊，這是一公頃美金的價格，就是水域或者是供水的value；如果就CO2（二氧化碳）碳的存底來看的話，它大概就落在一公頃是2,000美金，這是2001年的研究。也就是說，我們長期低估了碳存底在森林的市場價值，我們一直都沒有認為森林的保護是多麼重要。只是現在這是一個所謂的世界趨勢，大家要去知道說原來它的價值是在這裡，因為它有維護我們的生態，或者說是避免暖化有這些優厚的力量，所以它的價格是這樣，如果說它是原始林的話是2,830；如果後來變成轉農作的話會變成790，然後permanent，如果變成農業的話，變成630；如果是牧場會變成630；我的意思是說，如果它是沒有耕作的話，大概都在2,000塊左右的價值，上次我們在委員會討論的時候我提了這個論述。","最後一個就是在圖表所謂的option value，就是有些國家是進步到它已經有些綠能的概念，或者說它有環保的意識，它認為可以付5美金來維持巴西的森林，它用這樣的概念去算的話，其實所謂的間接價值也存在，所以它這個價值可以到5塊錢也可以到12塊美金。它的total在最後一頁table 6，你看它有所謂的……當然不要講伐木，伐木當然有它的價值，可是伐木的價值如果一存在的話，所謂climate的benefit就沒有了，也就是說你這邊是1,000，然後這樣子加加總總，加上它的一些休憩，加上一些它的生物多樣性，或者是我們剛才所說的間接價值的話，遠遠超過這2,000塊美金。","所以我的意思就是說，其實當初我們在講森林價值的時候是一個多元的概念，它是一個生態的概念，我們已經走到這個地步，我們不可能再走回頭路，再去按照這個國家合理的推算，然後應該是要到4萬塊。我希望院長要有一個概念，我們是希望能夠補足以前沒有補足到的，而且你知道禁伐補償是105年才開始，105年以前，我們一直都是這個森林的主人、是這個土地的主人，我們沒有說我們要求那麼多，我們是從現在開始先補足，而且我們這次修法的重點是每2年調整一次，不是你講的明年就調到12萬，而且是按照物價指數再調整，也就是說，這次一次到位以後就2年以後再說，如果經濟水準沒有到那個地方也不可能再調漲。如果你有仔細看我們的法律是那樣子修正的，你可以尊重我們的想法或者是已經通過的法律。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。保護森林是大家共同的責任……"],["盧委員縣一：因為剩下1分鐘，我要講一個重點，今天最重要的，我先考一下主委，我們魯凱族、排灣族的乞丐怎麼說？"],["曾主任委員智勇：乞丐？"],["盧委員縣一：嗯！"],["曾主任委員智勇：原住民的部落沒有乞丐。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我們有那個話。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們用的外來語就是臺語的「乞丐」……"],["盧委員縣一：我們魯凱跟排灣的乞丐就是kiciya，也就是閩南語來的「乞丐」。我為什麼要這麼說？因為我們原住民不是乞丐……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是。"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是。"],["盧委員縣一：我們是分享的民族。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["盧委員縣一：所以我們的世界觀裡面、我們的想法裡面沒有去求別人，希望能夠再三地去想一下你自己的思維，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，接下來登記第11號邱議瑩委員，第12號吳沛憶委員，兩位委員質詢均以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議議事日程報告事項第3案委員翁曉玲等23人\n擬具「憲法訴訟法第三十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、第4案委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「國家\n通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」案，院會所作決定，提出復議。是否有當，敬請\n公決─ 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院長我看您的背景我深深覺得你對原住民的權益的漠視甚至我可以說你是帶著殖民的思維我還記得上次就是6月7號總質詢我在這邊跟你的對話你總是提到禁法補償是政府對原住民的照顧"},{"start":108.605,"end":128.792,"text":"所以你會編列4萬塊是可以的編列6萬塊算太多你這樣子的說法我並不意外院長我在這邊提醒您你應該非常的清楚因為你是法律系畢業的照顧這兩個字是政府的援助"},{"start":131.629,"end":132.369,"text":"我們在行政院"},{"start":155.276,"end":160.788,"text":"行動101策略當中我們說現在行政院兩項大的政策就是照顧跟發展"},{"start":162.383,"end":166.464,"text":"原住民保留地禁法補償是補償原住民在憲法上我們的生存權還有財產權的損害"},{"start":191.011,"end":215.688,"text":"因為我們的政府禁止原住民使用我們的民族已經開墾在這塊土地上開墾千年以上的土地而我們現在的政府對我們的族人沒有辦法再度的農耕維生而我們的補償額度僅僅只能夠維持最基本的生計"},{"start":216.869,"end":235.655,"text":"我們的政府用法律用最強力的手段剝奪了我們原住民的生存權我們不卑不亢我們僅僅要求最低限度的補償這會太過分嗎 院長您休息一下我覺得要問一下曾主委曾主委"},{"start":240.584,"end":267.255,"text":"我請問一下 行政院或者民進黨一直不斷的對外放話說禁法補償這個法律是違憲的你是不是認同禁法補償是因為限制了原住民使用自己的土地這是一種補償對啊 我問你啦民進黨團還有一些人對外放話原住民禁法補償是違憲你是不是認同這句話"},{"start":268.246,"end":269.448,"text":"蔡英文執政8年期間,禁法補償是違憲嗎?"},{"start":286.287,"end":298.299,"text":"還是說你們覺得這一次的修法才是違憲如果你們堅持這一次的修法是違憲法那就更可笑了 院長你說4萬塊是合憲 6萬塊是違憲我還是想請問一下 6萬塊真的很多嗎"},{"start":304.87,"end":306.711,"text":"政府為了照顧老年的農民生活"},{"start":333.618,"end":355.818,"text":"沒有任何的條件之下我們的農民每個月就可以領取八千一百一十塊每年是九萬七千三百二十塊而我們原住民被限制了我們用來謀生的土地即便我們的這次修法之後平均每個月我們才可以領到五千塊"},{"start":357.319,"end":381.195,"text":"我們來看一下113年全國最低的生活費每個月是多少一萬四千兩百三十我們原住民僅僅要求這個金額的三分之一居然還被院長您嫌多我不理解我的主任更不理解院長您可以休息一下我要請教主委"},{"start":382.605,"end":409.504,"text":"主委主計長9月25號來到我辦公室跟我說明是主委你沒有積極爭取這導致競爬補償沒有編足9月25號到現在已經10月8號了你根本沒有跟任何一個人或者是對外來溝通說明9月25號到現在10月8號囉這當中你還去哪裡去帛琉玩了好幾天喔"},{"start":410.447,"end":422.829,"text":"可見你在這邊是準備充足覺得可以籌足我們相關的預算對嗎我跟委員報告第一個就是說每一個特別是我們原住民的立委我每一個立委都有去說明過"},{"start":424.076,"end":425.437,"text":"國慶日是10月1號吧"},{"start":442.927,"end":468.2,"text":"你是幾號去的?26號你就去啦?你躲避了禮拜五在這邊的總質詢啊而我幫你查過了禮拜六是可以有非帛琉的班機啊26號到1號還有那麼多的時間更何況更何況你的前面的副主委也跟你一起去啊"},{"start":468.88,"end":489.251,"text":"主委你不要在這邊在這邊再拿這個來做唐山我現在先請教主委我先請教主委人民會單位的預算是不是僅僅編列4萬塊的額度而剩餘的2萬塊額度你是不是準備要從原住民綜合發展基金中來編列"},{"start":490.575,"end":518.933,"text":"跟委員報告這個預算一下子從3萬變6萬當然我們預算上是沒有辦法一時來做我沒有問你這個我是說你是不是這個不足的2萬塊你要從原住民的綜合發展基金裡面來挪用 是嗎是不是所以當然要用基金來做既然這樣我就問你最基本的問題你知道原住民綜合發展基金的法源依據是什麼嗎"},{"start":520.953,"end":527.535,"text":"法源依據是什麼 沒關係你不要浪費我的時間我給你答案 你照念一遍就好預算法第4條第1項第2款第4目凡經過付出仍可收回的不是用於營業者為作業基金對不對那基金可以作為什麼用途"},{"start":551.068,"end":578.773,"text":"可以作爲什麽用途沒關係你不知道也給你答案來看一下他可以做什麽用途你念一下原住民族基本法第18條辦理原住民經濟發展業務輔導事業機構住宅還有興辦租售建構以及修繕業務這是我們基金可以做的有哪一個有講到禁法補償"},{"start":580.305,"end":593.377,"text":"主委啊你連基金的法源依據還有用途能夠作為什麼你都不知道你是怎麼幫族人來把關這個預算啊我跟委員報告你不要再回答了你連這兩個法律你都不知道謝謝指教院長"},{"start":599.242,"end":616.815,"text":"6月份我在這裡對您的總質詢你說修法過程當中就應該要合理的討論而民進黨也提到經法補償條例是在野黨多數暴力的產物現在我來為您理清一下整個修法的脈絡"},{"start":618.482,"end":646.323,"text":"這一屆第一會期我擔任了內政的召委就在4月17號內政跟經濟來審查進法補償條例的聯席會議當中你們的行政機關是這麼說的來我們看一下法務部的報告攸關援助民主權益保障這四設主管機關與大院的職權跟決定本部競表尊重"},{"start":647.984,"end":662.955,"text":"農業部的報告說什麼呢嚴育提高淨法補償金還有擴大淨法的區域範圍對於維護森林還有自然保育的資源是有正面效益的"},{"start":663.976,"end":685.324,"text":"而你們的主計總署在備詢的時候更回答委員的質詢說如果修法通過的話其本身就是屬於依法律所必須編列的支出在編預算的時候他會依照法所通過的規定來編列相關的經費"},{"start":689.665,"end":709.613,"text":"行政機關表達支持：不分黨派的立法委員也都提案蘇巧慧委員她甚至還提出什麼你知道嗎提出禁法補償金調到7萬塊她也樂觀其成這些在所有的會議記錄是都可以查詢的喔"},{"start":710.698,"end":720.826,"text":"審查結論甚至還從善如流的按照民進黨立法委員吳立華委員他提出的額度來通過"},{"start":722.692,"end":748.203,"text":"這難道是多數暴力嗎5月2號政黨協商裡面大家對於禁法補償增加到6萬塊也都表達贊同而這些民進黨的立法委員的連署還有委員當時的發言都是贊成修法的這難道也是在野黨多數的暴力嗎好啦即便在6月24號總統公佈了"},{"start":751.578,"end":753.079,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛這一段的陳述證明這不是黨派問題"},{"start":774.295,"end":797.481,"text":"他不是黨派問題不是顏色問題是守不守法的問題是是非對錯的問題立法行政兩院院計分立的問題行政院制定編列預算立法院審議預算制定編列的權限是在行政院立法委員的權限也可以提案啊好啦好啦院長院長院長我提醒你齁我提醒你我提醒你"},{"start":802.242,"end":806.964,"text":"委員你經常把最重要的那一段漏掉沒有錯所以委員都漏掉最重要的那一段造成人民的誤解這是永遠連接下來的"},{"start":822.472,"end":843.404,"text":"立法跟行政院要互相尊重我們的分際﹖如果有任何意見的話﹖如果有意見不同的話﹖立法院是多數決﹖只要是經過民主議程表決通過的﹖就是法律﹖院長 院長 院長好了提不提復議案﹖提不提復議案﹖"},{"start":849.307,"end":851.628,"text":"提不提復議案是你行政院決定的也是你的法定職權"},{"start":864.605,"end":883.095,"text":"你剛剛的一派服務員真的有需你作為一個行政院長報告我再說一次在整個立法當中行政機關的正面看法還有民進黨委員在審查的時候的支持我們都可以看到它的必要性跟合理性"},{"start":884.415,"end":905.125,"text":"目前唯一阻擋的就是說話不算話的賴皮政府三讀通過總統的法律 院長你知道嗎你是第一個公然違抗總統的行政院我剛剛都已經說了合法的過程是非常合法的也沒有所謂的多數暴力我現在請教一下委員會"},{"start":906.519,"end":925.496,"text":"原民會主委你的任務是不是包含要捍衛原民會的預算對嗎是好現在我從編列預算的過程裡面來請教你原住民進法補償條例修正通過的時候原民會你們是不是有向行政院提報52億元的需求經費要編列在原民會的單位預算內有沒有"},{"start":926.206,"end":950.563,"text":"我們希望是這樣子好謝謝也就是說從一開始你們原民會就知道經費應該要編列在原民會單位預算內而不是在基金之內所以呢所需要的額度是52億元原民會你要52億行政院只給你28億短缺了24億按照9月25號主計長到我辦公室他說的"},{"start":951.303,"end":979.158,"text":"你人民會應該要捍衛法律然後立即發函給行政院然後向行政院長爭取編列足額的經費請問一下主委人民會現在有再一次向行政院爭取嗎有還是沒有我們一直都跟主計總書這裡有沒有再發函給我們行政院長你還要爭取不足的部分有沒有有好 謝謝我現在要再問你"},{"start":982.008,"end":1011.6,"text":"如果你要從原住民族綜合發展基金撥付的話我現在就從基金的基本使用再問你你知道原住民綜合發展基金的法源依據嗎剛剛已經問過你了你現在再回答對我知道知道是什麼就是目前的原住民的這個綜合基金的狀況我了解不是狀況我說法源依據剛剛已經問過你了來來助理再給他一次答案有就是作業基金凡經復出仍可回收"},{"start":1012.489,"end":1018.498,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金有哪一些業務是屬於付出然後可以收回的"},{"start":1026.311,"end":1027.291,"text":"比如說原住民的貸款"},{"start":1048.439,"end":1051.822,"text":"發給族人之後有不足的地方就是不足的地方不是啦"},{"start":1064.571,"end":1069.454,"text":"6萬塊發給族人族人拿了這個6萬塊還要還給你的基金嗎不是嘛對不對他就拿走放在口袋了嘛請問一下這有符合基金要可付出仍可收回的性質嗎既然我們金髮不髒出去了他是不可以償還的這是代表什麼代表"},{"start":1088.968,"end":1100.265,"text":"議員："},{"start":1100.509,"end":1104.151,"text":"你跟行政院要52億 行政院給你28億 還少了24億主委你說基金仍然有17億可以調動 17-24是多少"},{"start":1129.814,"end":1150.817,"text":"7億來答案給你不足的部分不足的部分請問你要怎麼補我跟委員報告不用講了我們要精算你也說不了什麼你看一下這是你原民會今年給我的基金預算書明年114年度你的基金只剩下10億可以用你知道嗎第二個我再問你"},{"start":1153.204,"end":1170.796,"text":"這17億淨費裡面你說要從綜合發展基金出去嗎而且你說你要編17億是不是包含明年微小貸款的額度所以當微小貸款的經費全部都放在淨法補償上難道明年度的微小貸款你就不辦了嗎這個你必須跟主任說清楚這不會影響這個"},{"start":1174.645,"end":1201.737,"text":"進化補償我跟委員講最快也是明年的這個時候才發放我現在跟你講的是114年度的綜合發展基金你在講什麼啊主委你到底有沒有進入狀況啊從整個的基金來調度啊第三個再問你更簡單的問題如果你真的要違法用基金撥付進化補償的費用按照你說基金有17億可以用但是你的預算書非常的清楚說"},{"start":1202.677,"end":1229.583,"text":"明年也就是114年的你們的綜合發展基金短處多少你知道嗎67億多你就知道啊短處已經快破產啦你知道嗎主委我真的覺得你蠻離譜的尤其是在今年第一屆新竹縣原住民運動會上面你跟著廣大大眾說什麼我們原住民是人也是鬼"},{"start":1230.578,"end":1233.803,"text":"請問一下你現在是人還是鬼現在是人還是鬼你現在是人還是鬼"},{"start":1245.504,"end":1271.03,"text":"我更記得上個會期你在業務報告裡面跟我說你說爭取園民會的預算是足為很重要的業務可是我發現你向行政院爭取經費你不敢基金是什麼你也搞不清楚可是他給你足夠了嗎還不夠啊然後基金是什麼你也搞不清楚"},{"start":1271.77,"end":1295.439,"text":"基金現在要面臨破產了你也不知道主委你是要做怎麼樣一個盡責的主委啊你說禁法補償明年會如其發你相信你自己說的話嗎我告訴你我是不相信啦除了你睜眼說瞎話之外我們來看一下審查禁法補償條例的時候法務部說什麼會尊重立法院的權責"},{"start":1296.979,"end":1314.347,"text":"農業部說什麼對國土保育有正面的效益主計整處更說什麼他說會依法編列不到兩個月喔你們現在告訴我們說編列預算有困難這個是讓我們的族人怎麼相信你們民進黨的鬼話"},{"start":1315.731,"end":1342.667,"text":"立法程序我們有充分的溝通院長說他只能先給4萬塊甚至只願意給4萬塊然後我剛剛裡面告訴你舉了這麼多的例子我們的基金也確實是沒有辦法挪用到撥付進法補償不管是他的破產不管是他的法律可是行政院你們真的還是要硬幹啊"},{"start":1343.527,"end":1344.247,"text":"這個論點唯一成立的前提是"},{"start":1364.258,"end":1381.108,"text":"原民會的預算是給足的按照原住民的人口來計算我們原住民的人口數在現在全國的人總數是2.59%應該要有811億的預算而我們現在只分配到多少0.39%也就是122億"},{"start":1384.75,"end":1412.071,"text":"即使即使再加上民進黨你們不斷的對外講說其他不會用在原住民的身上我也幫你整合了也只有178億這兩個加起來300億連828.8億的一半都不到然後我再告訴你一個事情原住民族地區的行政單位的成績他只有鄉鎮市區的成績"},{"start":1413.342,"end":1437.845,"text":"他們根本也沒有辦法分配所謂的專屬的統籌分配稅款原住民地區的鄉鎮市區我們僅僅只能夠依靠原民會的補助款在生存啊院長你給原住民原民會穿小鞋也就罷了我認為這雙鞋還是嬰兒鞋你對外還有說什麼立法院不能夠增加預算的方式來通過法案"},{"start":1438.564,"end":1462.784,"text":"但是你看一下你們的柯總召在96年他曾經提出老年農民福利津貼暫時條例的修正案要求老農津貼從每個月5000塊要調高到6000塊然後又在100年的時候再次以民進黨團提修正案從每個月的6000塊調到7000塊我們可以看到他每一次的修正"},{"start":1463.564,"end":1478.245,"text":"支出將近90億請問民進黨可以高金素梅在這邊提案而且是按照民主程序三讀總統公佈的法律你"},{"start":1479.622,"end":1481.043,"text":"這也是行政院裡面提出版本喔"},{"start":1506.684,"end":1518.087,"text":"在立法院修正通過內政部現在已經補足了5億8千多萬的相關預算現在不僅僅是綠能我不能更是擺明的欺負原住民然後你又再講"},{"start":1519.588,"end":1543.817,"text":"任何增加新的預算要有新的財源我們來看一下105年禁法補償通過的時候的附帶決議說什麼如果需要提高禁法補償的金額必須要由開增碳稅來支應112年通過氣候變遷因應法我們的環境部按照這個法的第32條設立了溫室氣體管理基金"},{"start":1548.359,"end":1564.205,"text":"您知道嗎 院長原住民有為政府守護7萬公頃的碳會的原住民金髮補償的私有林地同時呢 原民會也有11萬公頃的公有林地"},{"start":1565.474,"end":1580.65,"text":"溫室氣體管理基金這不就是財源嗎院長你知道最大的問題是什麼嗎是你根本視而不見甚至114年度的稅入稅出的剩餘是209億元你依舊視而不見"},{"start":1586.749,"end":1606.406,"text":"114年也就是明年度的預算總共多少3兆以上這樣子的行政團隊要告訴我的族人說24億我找不到財源真的實在是天大的笑話我講白了你不是讓原住民穿嬰兒鞋您是要讓原住民赤腳走路"},{"start":1607.093,"end":1621.264,"text":"我覺得這是赤裸裸的殖民思想賴政府是我從政23年來我看到最踐踏立法院最欺負原住民的獨裁政府"},{"start":1622.179,"end":1646.465,"text":"委員所說的完全不是事實我知道委員會把這一段質詢放在影片跟你的主人說但是你當中有很多斷章取義錯誤的立法院是公開透明的現在已經非常多人在看即時的轉播那我要報告委員我們的長照我們的健保我們的勞健保難道沒有用在原住民身上嗎有啊所以你剛剛的數字是覺得不對是啊"},{"start":1647.245,"end":1651.908,"text":"所以我現在要告訴我現在要告訴你我現在我沒有錯誤我沒有錯誤我告訴你們更離譜的是講什麼其他部會放在原住民的身上有178頁原住民是話外知名嗎"},{"start":1666.004,"end":1692.364,"text":"你們撲在原住民的道路上其他人難道不走嗎不要在這邊荒謬的亂講話了啦院長請你保持你的高度請你保持你的高度我現在對非常好非常好所以要一一全部要一視同仁所以不要把原住民當作話外之民所以立法院三讀通過"},{"start":1694.625,"end":1716.455,"text":"總統公告的法律院請你守法有這麼困難嗎最後最後最後最後我要用德國牧師尼莫勒的一首詩作為我今天總質詢的結束當納稅逮捕共產黨人的時候我保持沉默我又不是共產黨人"},{"start":1718.777,"end":1742.674,"text":"當他們關押社民黨人的時候我保持沉默我又不是社民黨人當他們逮捕工會人員的時候我保持沉默我又不是工會的人員當他們逮捕我的時候已經沒有人能為我說話了我含著眼淚哽咽地在這邊告訴你"},{"start":1744.963,"end":1773.679,"text":"我非常感謝民眾黨團、國民黨團能夠頂住你們的胡說八道能夠頂住所謂側翼的攻擊還在這裡捍衛立法委員的尊嚴捍衛台灣的民主法治所以我要講的是現在民進黨在這裡膽敢欺負台灣的主人您剛剛說的原住民族"},{"start":1774.693,"end":1775.434,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1790.896,"end":1798.241,"text":"讓我們一起來堅定 捍衛民主法治 拒絕獨裁謝謝謝謝高金委員發言會"},{"start":1817.529,"end":1820.282,"text":"上午質詢到此為止本次會議"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:34:38 - 12:04:59","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155250","gazette":{"lineno":689,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（11時34分）謝謝江主席，有請卓院長還有曾主委。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢，還有原民會主委。"],["卓院長榮泰：高金委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：卓院長好。剛剛我在這邊聽到廖先翔委員對院長您質詢的時候，院長回應他說立法院要三讀通過的法律，必須先要和行政院協商，您才能接受。您知道您這是在侵犯立法院的職權，這不是獨裁，什麼是獨裁呢？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：能夠在這裡講話就不是獨裁。"],["高金委員素梅：您剛剛的回應是獨裁。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是。"],["高金委員素梅：我們這裡是民主殿堂，所有在這邊選出來的立法委員都是代表民意，多數決就是民主好嗎？我現在回到我30分鐘的質詢，院長，我們來看一下一段影片，這是你的備詢、你說的話。","（播放影片）"],["高金委員素梅：好。院長，我看您的備詢，我深深覺得你對原住民權益的漠視，甚至我可以說你是帶著殖民思維。我還記得上次6月7日總質詢，我在這邊跟你的對話，你總是提到禁伐補償是政府對原住民的照顧，所以編列4萬元是可以的，編列6萬元算太多，你這樣子的說法，我並不意外。院長，我在這邊提醒，你應該非常清楚，因為你是法律系畢業的，「照顧」這兩個字是政府的援助；「補償」是對於政府合法行為造成人民權利的損害所作為的補償措施，這兩個的性質是完全不一樣的，所以院長知道嗎？禁伐補償是針對什麼樣的損害做補償的呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在行動101策略當中，我們說現在行政院兩項大的政策就是照顧跟發展，照顧……"],["高金委員素梅：我問你的是，禁伐補償是針對什麼的損害做補償？剛剛我已經告訴你照顧是什麼意思、在法律上補償是什麼意思。好了，沒關係啦！我就回答你好了，原住民保留地禁伐補償是補償原住民在憲法上的生存權，還有財產權的損害，因為政府禁止原住民使用我們民族已經開墾在這塊土地上開墾千年以上的土地，我們現在的政府對我們族人沒有辦法再度的農耕維生，而我們的補償額度僅僅只能夠維持最基本的生計，我們的政府用法律、用最強烈的手段剝奪掉了我們原住民的生存權，我們不卑不亢，我們僅僅要求最低限度的補償，這會太過分嗎？院長？您休息一下，我接著要問一下曾主委。曾主委，我請問一下，行政院或者民進黨一直不斷的對外放話，說禁伐補償這個法律是違憲的，你是不是認同？"],["曾主任委員智勇：禁伐補償是因為限制了原住民使用自己的土地，這是一種補償。"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！我問你啦！民進黨團還有一些人對外放話，說原住民禁伐補償是違憲，你是不是認同這句話？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我沒有認同啊！"],["高金委員素梅：好，你不認同。在這裡……"],["卓院長榮泰：這句話也不對，委員……"],["高金委員素梅：在這裡，我要敬告行政院還有民進黨團，尤其是柯建銘委員，如果你們堅持是違憲，請問一下，蔡英文執政8年的期間，禁伐補償是違憲嗎？還是你們覺得這一次的修法才是違憲，如果你們堅持這一次的修法是違憲，那就更可笑了！院長，你說4萬元是合憲，6萬元是違憲，我還是想請問一下，6萬元真的很多嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員沒有搞清楚，我們沒有說禁伐補償是違憲，是用這種……"],["高金委員素梅：我說的是柯建銘委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：他有……"],["高金委員素梅：你沒看到新聞嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你再放一次剛剛那個圖片。"],["高金委員素梅：你沒看到新聞嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他有說「調升」兩個字。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！我現在跟你說……"],["卓院長榮泰：你故意漏掉「調升」兩個字，對柯委員是不公平的。"],["高金委員素梅：好！好！好！OK！調升。我們看一下、我們看一下，政府為了照顧老年的農民生活，沒有任何的條件之下，我們的農民每個月就可以領取8,110塊，每年是9萬7,320塊。而我們原住民被限制了我們用來謀生的土地，即便我們的這次修法之後，平均每個月我們才可以領到5,000塊。我們來看一下，113年全國最低的生活費，每個月是多少？1萬4,230，我們原住民僅僅要求這個金額的三分之一，居然還被院長您嫌多啊！我不理解！我的族人更不理解！院長，您可以休息一下，我要請教主委。","主委，主計長9月25號來到我辦公室，跟我說明是主委你沒有積極爭取，才導致禁伐補償沒有編足，9月25號到現在已經10月8號了，你根本沒有跟任何一個人或者是對外來溝通說明，9月25號到現在10月8號，這當中你還去哪裡？去帛琉玩了好幾天，可見你在這邊是準備充足，覺得可以籌足我們相關的預算，對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，第一個，每一個特別是我們原住民的立委，我們每一個立委都有去說明過了，還有我去帛琉不是去玩，也是希望在外交上，原住民能夠扮演一定的角色。"],["高金委員素梅：非常好，主委，我就是等你回應這句話，你說是奉總統之命。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：你知道帛琉的國慶日是10月1號吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：你是幾號去的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：26號。"],["高金委員素梅：26號你就去了，你躲避了禮拜五在這邊的總質詢，而我幫你查過了，禮拜六是可以有飛帛琉的班機啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：26號到1號還有那麼多的時間，更何況你前面的副主委也跟你一起去啊！主委，你不要在這邊再拿這個來做搪塞。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：我現在先請教主委，原民會單位的預算，是不是僅僅編列4萬塊的額度，而剩餘的2萬塊額度，你是不是準備要從原住民綜合發展基金中來編列？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，這個預算一下子從3萬變6萬，當然我們預算是沒有辦法一時來做……"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有問你這個，我是說這個不足的2萬塊，你是不是要從原住民的綜合發展基金裡面來挪用，是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：要讓原住民的……"],["高金委員素梅：是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：所以當然要用基金來做支應。"],["高金委員素梅：既然這樣，我就問你最基本的問題，你知道原住民綜合發展基金的法源依據是什麼嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：法源依據，它主要也是……"],["高金委員素梅：法源依據是什麼？沒關係，你不要浪費我的時間，我給你答案，你照唸一遍就好。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，其實這個基金……"],["高金委員素梅：預算法第四條第一項第二款第四目，凡經過付出仍可收回的，不是用於營業者，為作業基金。對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好。基金可以作為什麼用途？"],["曾主任委員智勇：但是我們這個基金……"],["高金委員素梅：可以作為什麼用途？沒關係，你不知道，也給你答案。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們本來這個基金就可以來……"],["高金委員素梅：來看一下它可以作什麼用途，你唸一下，原住民族基本法第十八條，辦理原住民經濟發展業務、輔導事業機構、住宅之興辦、租售、建購以及修繕業務，這是我們基金可以做的，有哪一個有講到禁伐補償？主委，你連基金的法源依據還有用途能夠作為什麼都不知道，你是怎麼樣幫族人來把關這個預算？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：你不要再回答了，請院長。"],["曾主任委員智勇：支應這個禁伐補償……"],["高金委員素梅：你不要再回答了！你連這兩個法律都不知道！"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝指教。"],["高金委員素梅：院長，6月份我在這裡對你的總質詢，你說修法過程當中就應該要合理的討論，而民進黨也提到，禁伐補償條例是在野黨多數暴力的產物，現在我來為您釐清一下整個修法的脈絡。這一屆第1會期我擔任內政的召委，就在4月17號內政跟經濟審查原住民保留地禁伐補償條例的聯席會議當中，你們的行政機關是這麼說的，我們來看一下法務部的報告「攸關原住民族權益保障，事涉主管機關與大院之職權與決定，本部敬表尊重」；農業部的報告說什麼呢？「研議提高禁伐補償金及擴大禁伐區域範圍，對於維護森林及自然保育資源有正面效益」；而你們的主計總處在備詢的時候更回答委員的質詢說「如果修法通過的話，其本身就是屬於依法律所必須編列的支出，……在編預算時會依照法所通過的規定來編列相關經費」。","行政機關表達支持，不分黨派的立法委員也都提案，蘇巧慧委員甚至還提出什麼你知道嗎？提出禁伐補償金調到7萬塊，她也樂觀其成，這些所有的會議紀錄都是可以查詢的，審查結論甚至還從善如流地按照民進黨立法委員伍麗華委員提出的額度通過，這難道是多數暴力嗎？5月2號的政黨協商裡，大家對於禁伐補償增加到6萬塊也都表達贊同，而這些民進黨立法委員的連署還有委員當時的發言都是贊成修法的，這難道也是在野黨的多數暴力嗎？好啦！即便在6月24號總統公布了，院長，行政院你們都沒有提出覆議案啊！這代表什麼？根本沒有窒礙難行之處，對不對？所以現在有窒礙難行是你的決定，還是總統的公布根本就不算數？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員剛剛這一段的陳述，證明這不是黨派問題。"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：朝野立委……"],["高金委員素梅：它不是黨派問題、不是顏色問題，而是守不守法的問題、是非對錯的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是立法、行政兩院院際分立的問題。行政院制定編列預算，立法院審議預算，制定編列的權限是在行政院。"],["高金委員素梅：立法委員的權限也可以提案啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：在提案中增加預算就是不行。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！好啦！院長，院長，我提醒你……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛你的陳述中漏了最重要的一段……"],["高金委員素梅：我提醒你，你在這邊的言論……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你經常把最重要的那一段漏掉……"],["高金委員素梅：我提醒你，做好良好的示範，您在這裡的言論都會被公告的。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯。"],["高金委員素梅：而且希望你做最好的示範。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以委員都漏掉最重要的那一段，造成人民的誤解，這是經年累月下來的。"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有誤解啊！是你說的啊！立法跟行政院要互相尊重，對我們的分際如果有任何意見的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，所以我們在最後提出4萬……"],["高金委員素梅：如果意見不同的話，立法院是多數決，只要是經過民主議程表決通過的，就是法律。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，如果你提12萬，我也要接受嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：院長，提不提覆議案……","你說什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：明年如果你提12萬，行政院也要接受嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：你這個是胡說八道啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我胡說八道？那這次為什麼要這麼做呢？"],["高金委員素梅：提不提覆議案是你行政院決定的，也是你的法定職權，你剛剛的一派胡言真的有失你作為一個行政院長的高度。"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望透過其他方式來協調。"],["高金委員素梅：我再說一次，在整個立法當中，行政機關的正面看法，還有民進黨委員在審查時的支持我們都可以看到它的必要性跟合理性，目前唯一阻擋的就是說話不算話的賴皮政府。三讀通過、總統公布的法律，院長你知道嗎？你是第一個公然違抗總統的行政院，我剛剛都已經說了，過程是非常合法的，也沒有所謂的多數暴力。","我現在請教一下原民會，原民會主委，你的任務是不是包含要捍衛原民會的預算，對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：現在我從編列預算的過程裡面來請教你，原住民禁伐補償條例修正通過的時候，原民會是不是有向行政院提報52億元的需求經費，要編列在原民會的單位預算內，有沒有？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們希望是這樣子啦！"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。也就是從一開始，你們原民會就知道經費應該要編列在原民會單位預算內，而不是在基金之內。所需要的額度是52億元，原民會要52億，行政院只給你28億，短缺了24億，按照9月25日主計長到我辦公室說的，原民會應該要捍衛法律，立即發函給行政院，向行政院長爭取編列足額的經費。請問一下，主委，原民會現在有再一次向行政院爭取嗎？有還是沒有？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們一直都跟主計總處拜託……"],["高金委員素梅：有沒有再發函給我們行政院長，說你還要爭取不足的部分，有沒有？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。我現在要再問你，如果你要從原住民族綜合發展基金撥付的話，我現在就從基金的基本使用再問你，你知道原住民族綜合發展基金的法源依據嗎？剛剛已經問過你了，你現在再回答。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，我知道。"],["高金委員素梅：知道，是什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是目前原住民族綜發基金的狀況，我瞭解。"],["高金委員素梅：不是狀況，我說法源依據，剛剛已經問過你了。助理，再給他一次答案。"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，就是……"],["高金委員素梅：作業基金凡經付出仍可回收，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：好，這句話是什麼意思？講簡單一點。"],["曾主任委員智勇：就貸出去，可以收回來。"],["高金委員素梅：好，很好！原住民族綜合發展基金有哪一些業務是屬於付出，然後可以收回的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：比如原住民的貸款。"],["高金委員素梅：講得很好！你終於已經進入到軌道了，我在這裡舉一個最基本的例子，就是原住民的貸款，我們原住民的貸款或者是信用保證、族人經常在原民會裡面申請的微笑貸款，對吧！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：幾乎都是年輕人在用的，這個就是可付出要收回的，也就是族人跟基金借錢必須要還的，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：好，請問一下，禁伐補償發給族人之後，他還要償還嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：發給族人之後，有不足的地方，就是不足的地方，我們會請求……"],["高金委員素梅：不是啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會請求……"],["高金委員素梅：6萬塊發給族人，族人拿了這個6萬塊還要還給你的基金嗎？不是，對不對？他就拿走，放在口袋了，請問一下，這有符合基金要可付出仍可收回的性質嗎？既然我們禁伐補償出去了，他是不用償還的，這是代表什麼？代表原民會的綜合發展基金是不可以這麼用的，因為會怎麼樣，你知道嗎？這會讓基金負債，更會讓我們的基金破產，知道吧！"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員，跟你報告，歷年來都是這樣子，都是預算和基金……"],["高金委員素梅：你不能夠講歷年來，歷年來我已經講過了，原民會都在違法，好不好？謝謝，我再問你三個更簡單的問題好了。第一個，你跟行政院要52億，行政院給你28億，還少了24億，主委，你說基金仍然有17億可以調動……"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：24減17是多少？7億，答案給你，不足的部分，請問你要怎麼補？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：不用講了，我知道你也說……"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們要精算……"],["高金委員素梅：你也說不了什麼，你看一下，這是你原民會今年給我的基金預算書，明年（114年度）你的基金只剩下10億可以用，你知道嗎？第二個，我再問你，這17億經費裡面，你說要從綜合發展基金出去，而且你說你要編17億，是不是包含明年微笑貸款的額度？所以當微笑貸款的經費全部都放在禁伐補償上，難道明年度的微笑貸款就不辦了嗎？這個你必須跟族人說清楚喔！"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員，我跟你講，這個不會影響，我跟委員講，禁伐補償最快也是明年的這個時候才發放……"],["高金委員素梅：我現在跟你講的是114年度的綜合發展基金，你在講什麼啊！主委，你到底有沒有進入狀況……"],["曾主任委員智勇：從整個基金……"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！第三個，再問你更簡單的問題，如果你真的要違法用基金撥付禁伐補償的費用，按照你說的基金有17億可以用，但是你的預算書非常的清楚說，明年（也就是114年）你們的綜合發展基金短絀多少，你知道嗎？不知道，好，告訴你……"],["曾主任委員智勇：六十七億多。"],["高金委員素梅：你就知道啊！短絀，已經快破產了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，我真的覺得你滿離譜的，尤其是在今年第一屆新竹縣原住民運動會上面，你跟廣大的大眾說什麼？我們原住民是人也是鬼，請問一下主委……"],["曾主任委員智勇：這是斷章取義。"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下你現在是人還是鬼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員講為什麼講是人是鬼，每年7、8月我們辦收穫祭、豐年祭……"],["高金委員素梅：你現在是人還是鬼？你現在是人還是鬼？我更記得上個會期你在業務報告裡面跟我說，你說爭取原民會的預算是主委很重要的業務。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：可是我發現你不敢向行政院爭取經費，基金是什麼你也搞不清楚……"],["曾主任委員智勇：我爭取的預算是有原民會以來歷年來最高的，今年123億。"],["高金委員素梅：可是它給你足夠了嗎？還不夠啊！然後基金是什麼你也搞不清楚，基金現在面臨破產了你也不知道。主委，你是要做怎麼樣一個盡責的主委？你說禁伐補償明年會如期發，你相信你自己說的話嗎？我告訴你，我是不相信啦！除了你睜眼說瞎話之外，我們來看一下，審查禁伐補償條例的時候，法務部說什麼？會尊重立法院的權責。農業部說什麼？對國土保育有正面的效益。主計總處更說什麼？它說會依法編列。不到兩個月喔！你們現在告訴我們編列預算有困難，真的是讓我們的族人怎麼相信你們民進黨的鬼話？立法程序我們有充分的溝通，院長說，他只能先給4萬塊，甚至只願意給4萬塊，然後我剛剛舉了這麼多的例子告訴你，我們的基金也確實沒有辦法挪用到撥付禁伐補償，不管是它即將破產或是它的法律，可是行政院你們真的還是要硬幹啊！","院長，我也幫你整理了你最近對外的發表，我們看一下院長講的，你說用原民會40%預算去做單一補助是不合理的，這是陳瑩質詢的時候你說的。我要講的是，這個論點唯一成立的前提是原民會的預算是給足的。按照原住民的人口來計算，我們原住民人口數占現在全國總人口數2.59%，應該要有811億的預算，而我們現在只分配到0.39%，也就是122億，即使再加上民進黨你們不斷的對外講，其他部會用在原住民身上的，我也幫你整合了，也只有178億，這兩個加起來是300億，連811億的一半都不到。","我再告訴你一個實情，原住民族地區行政單位的層級只有鄉鎮市區的層級，他們根本也沒有辦法分配所謂的專屬的統籌分配稅款，原住民地區的鄉鎮市區僅僅只能夠依靠原民會的補助款生存。院長，你給原住民、原民會穿小鞋也就罷了，我認為這雙鞋還是嬰兒鞋。你對外還有說什麼？立法院不能夠以增加預算的方式來通過法案，但是你看一下你們的柯總召，在96年他曾經提出老年農民福利津貼暫行條例的修正案，要求老農津貼從每個月5,000塊調高到6,000塊，然後又在100年的時候再次以民進黨團提修正案，從每個月的6,000塊調到7,000塊，我們可以看到，他每一次的修正支出將近90億。請問民進黨可以，高金素梅在這邊提案，而且是按照民主程序三讀、總統公布的法律，你就不通過……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是民進黨可以……"],["高金委員素梅：這不是標準的「綠能，我不能」嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是民進黨可以，你不可以，這種提案都經過行政院同意……"],["高金委員素梅：還沒、還沒，我會有時間跟你說。我再舉一個例子，從與禁伐補償條例同一天三讀通過的「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」來看，這也是行政院沒有提出版本，在立法院修正通過，內政部現在已經編足了五億八千多萬的相關預算，現在不僅僅是「綠能，我不能」，更是擺明的欺負原住民。然後你又在講，任何增加新的預算要有新的財源。我們來看一下105年禁伐補償通過的時候的附帶決議說什麼，如果需要提高禁伐補償的金額，必須要由開徵碳稅來支應。112年通過氣候變遷因應法，我們的環境部按照這個法的第三十二條設立了溫室氣體管理基金，院長，您知道嗎？原住民有為政府守護7萬公頃碳匯的原住民禁伐補償的私有林地，同時，原民會也有11萬公頃的公有林地，溫室氣體管理基金不就是財源嗎？院長，你知道最大的問題是什麼嗎？是你根本視而不見，甚至114年度歲入歲出的賸餘是209億元，你依舊視而不見。114年，也就是明年度的預算，總共多少？3兆以上，這樣子的行政團隊要告訴我的族人說，24億我找不到財源，實在是天大的笑話。我講白了，你不是讓原住民穿嬰兒鞋，你是要讓原住民赤腳走路，我覺得這是赤裸裸的殖民思想。賴政府是我從政23年來看過最踐踏立法院、最欺負原住民的獨裁政府！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員所說的完全不是事實，我知道委員會把這一段質詢放在影片跟你的族人說，但是你當中有很多斷章取義，錯誤的……"],["高金委員素梅：大家都會看得到，立法院是公開透明的，現在已經非常多人在看即時的轉播。"],["卓院長榮泰：那我要報告委員，我們的長照、我們的健保、我們的勞健保難道沒有用在原住民身上嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：有啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：有啊！所以你剛剛的數字是絕對不對的。"],["高金委員素梅：是啊！所以我現在要告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以你不要用錯誤的數字……"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有錯誤！"],["卓院長榮泰：來襯托你的想法，那是錯上加錯，故意扭曲。"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有錯誤！我告訴你們更離譜的是講什麼，其他部會放在原住民的身上有178億，原住民是化外之民嗎？你們鋪在原住民的道路上，其他人難道不走嗎？不要在這邊荒謬的亂講話了！"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員不同的是，我們都是同一個國家的國民……"],["高金委員素梅：院長，請你保持你的高度！我現在……"],["卓院長榮泰：我的高度就是我們都是同一個國家的國民。"],["高金委員素梅：對，非常好、非常好，所以全部要一視同仁。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你還記得你的選舉嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：所以不要把原住民當作化外之民，所以立法院三讀通過、總統公告的法令，請你守法有這麼困難嗎？最後……"],["卓院長榮泰：守法是行政院的必要。"],["高金委員素梅：最後，我要用德國牧師尼莫勒的一首詩作為我今天總質詢的結束：「當納粹逮捕共產黨人的時候，我保持沉默，我又不是共產黨人；當他們關押社民黨人的時候，我保持沉默，我又不是社民黨人；當他們逮捕工會人員的時候，我保持沉默，我又不是工會人員；當他們逮捕我的時候，已經沒有人能為我說話了。」我含著眼淚哽咽的在這邊告訴你們：我非常感謝民眾黨團、國民黨團能夠頂住你們的胡說八道，能夠頂住所謂側翼的攻擊，還在這裡捍衛立法委員的尊嚴，捍衛臺灣的民主法治。所以我要講的是，現在民進黨在這裡膽敢欺負臺灣的主人──您剛剛說的原住民族，如果再沒有任何一個人出來說話的話，接下來會不會就是老師、警察、軍人，甚至所有的國民？在這裡我要跟我親愛的族人說，我也要跟全國人民說……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，不要危言聳聽。報告委員……"],["高金委員素梅：讓我們一起來堅定、捍衛民主法治，拒絕獨裁！謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：共產黨人的一句話：為人民服務，是委員選舉的口號，你的人民不能只有原住民，沒有全國的人民，你要真正的為人民服務。"],["主席：好，謝謝高金委員。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止。本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。下午2時30分繼續開會，進行內政組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（12時5分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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呃 劉部長在先前的答詢也答詢過我請劉部長再說明一次是 我要跟您報告一下我們以前在算打詐的案呢 把它當成刑案譬如說現在在打詐呢 可能有一群人十幾二十個人的話是算一個案但是現在呢 我們在院長的指示之下呢不能夠用這樣的方式只要一案一個人就算一個案一案十個人就算十個案那金額怎麼講對 但是金額的部分案數增加我知道"},{"start":374.859,"end":401.305,"text":"我認為這就像火災一樣你們把認定的標準又放任官這個是好 這個是對另外在165報進來的時候就是報案人他的主觀上認定他損失多少金額我們就把他列進去這就是為什麼每天打詐儀表板都可以定時來公布這個打詐的案數跟打詐的財損數但是真正的部分要等我們變成全班刑案的時候來質詢我講到打詐儀表板齁"},{"start":402.438,"end":427.471,"text":"我講到165我講到這個我就想到速發布這個速發布我簡單五個字飯桶速發布我不曉得他在幹什麼打詐的事情完全繞到警政署的手上人家警政署至少有做點事你剛剛講的165那就是只有警政署警政署做的院長你知道嗎警政署啊"},{"start":428.371,"end":439.762,"text":"布置這165APP防詐的專網人家只花一千萬前幾天啦數位部搞了半天"},{"start":441.195,"end":466.642,"text":"千呼萬喚使出來他搞一個APP花6千萬不打緊喔他那個6千萬的APP大家可以去看你現在上網馬上看看他上面的評語是怎麼樣花6千萬結果下面臭罵連連滿意分數5分來講他只有2.8分然後現在速發部"},{"start":467.995,"end":468.215,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":481.94,"end":505.09,"text":"他本來是要設立一個平台讓所有受到這種錯誤訊息的人可以在平台上去查詢那麼他這個在國內是創舉我也請他參考國外的案例國外的機制有沒有他也說國外是沒有這樣這麼完全的一個機制所以他現在在藏屍的作業當中他現在已經把這個平台上網的時間延後到年底"},{"start":508.191,"end":537.247,"text":"希望在座改善我今天題外話講他啦 為什麼 因為他實在太飯多他明年的預算87億 比今年增加21%阿這也就算了 他那個APP你待會去看他五天前上線 那麼這五天來負評如潮 他的負評大概哪一些呢他說齁 人家說找不到通報功能啦 說介面差啦"},{"start":540.009,"end":565.999,"text":"說使用中國的用語中共那邊的用語優化這個他都在用中共那邊的用語再來呢通知後沒有結果這是最糟糕你看看人家警政署的165至少那個165的功能那個院長你看一下我畫面上會放165的功能這麼多這麼多還一千萬"},{"start":568.116,"end":581.94,"text":"這個飯桶數位部花6倍的錢下面負評如潮所以 院長我希望說你今天就下令他齁乾脆撤掉算啦我要全民就當作說這些錢丟到水裡面噗通一聲"},{"start":585.086,"end":585.286,"text":"負責跟國外"},{"start":612.885,"end":623.533,"text":"這些網路平台﹖FB、Google、LINE﹖所有這些的聯繫是由速發部他老兄一點能力都沒有 什麼都沒幹"},{"start":625.553,"end":653.78,"text":"結果事實上我們很多可以用的比如說我們有跟台日交流協會有做一個司法合作備忘錄他可以好好運用嗎他不我們跟美國也有台美互助台美司法互助已經20年的歷史他不懂那他可以好好來問警政署好好談一談所以我在想"},{"start":655.887,"end":661.468,"text":"時間到了 不用 給他機會啦 直接 要不然就直接由內政部"},{"start":662.284,"end":687.788,"text":"有警政署直接藉由臺美司法互助藉由臺日我們之間的交流司法的合作那最有牽連的合作備忘錄阿我們趕緊跟他們來談說這樣這樣重大這些詐騙案如何讓LINE讓Google讓Facebook他們願意交通喔太多現在還設置的這些平台什麼Name這個"},{"start":692.18,"end":696.662,"text":"那那個 院長因為時間有限齁那個主席是不是停一下我喝個水好嗎"},{"start":723.279,"end":723.56,"text":"對很好有這一句答覆我覺得這樣就"},{"start":754.388,"end":777.661,"text":"我們的警察我用三句話形容老苦功高出生入死薪水過低那個院長部長你知道嗎今年光是到8月份的到前天的統計我們已經有8位警察自殺身亡"},{"start":778.749,"end":799.089,"text":"那這5年來不連這8位時候我們有51件通報警察自殺但是有31位警察不幸身亡那我們查過這不幸身亡的警察裡面只有6位曾接受過"},{"start":801.141,"end":820.341,"text":"屬裡面做的這個心理諮商也就是說我們那個心理諮商的覆蓋率太低啦我們在努力改善檢討當中那我覺得這跟待遇非常有關現在你知道嗎 院長部長我們數十天大夜班的員工齊心 新進人員齊心4萬1"},{"start":823.206,"end":851.579,"text":"我們做了五年的警察平均他們的薪水五萬二現在廣告說有啦警察招生廣告說薪水有六萬但是那個是含其他比如說首都都會加急吼還有含加班費等等那所以我總而言之一句話這個結果會導致什麼導致我們現在警察的人數嚴重不足"},{"start":852.239,"end":878.607,"text":"到去年底我們全國總共缺了五千位警察所以院長部長這一點我們要積極下去做好不好那我最後一個問題因為昨天凌晨在社子島又發生一個火災那個火災還不算大型的結果燒死一位民眾有五位嗆傷"},{"start":880.547,"end":898.661,"text":"那那個慘況如果院長部長你們稍微看了這個報導就曉得社子島已經夠慘了在那邊容留的租戶都還是透過社會局媒介過來社會最底層的三五千塊五六千塊這樣子的租金所以"},{"start":899.301,"end":916.651,"text":"院長部長我要說的就是說我們要趕快積極開發社職導在台北市政府尋求各方專家民眾的意見之後那麼這個案子就是低密度的生態社職導開發"},{"start":919.793,"end":948.558,"text":"院長我也獲得部長的首肯部長也為了這個案子也去主動拜訪了這個蔣萬恩市長那我認為這是我們再朝再也合作一個很好的案子開發了社址島還給社址島民眾一個公道同時也會帶動周邊社址葫蘆島南港地區的發展所以這個事情是迫在眉睫應該立刻開發好不好"},{"start":954.738,"end":955.779,"text":"好 謝謝王委員 謝謝左院長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:18:27 - 11:34:31","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155249","gazette":{"lineno":644,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時19分）主席，我請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員世堅：卓院長好，辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["王委員世堅：我們隔了三個多月，我知道這三個多月你應該也對我們行政院的院務是策勵許多。"],["卓院長榮泰：努力中、努力中。"],["王委員世堅：我在開場之前，我一樣先送你一項禮物，對你做一些期許，我要送你一個認識臺灣、我們臺灣的拼圖，我希望你能夠以大愛、大公無私的精神，把我們全國、全臺灣22縣市拼在一起，我們應該團結、和諧、互助、互愛。古書上面老子有一句話：大方無隅，真正大的形狀是沒有角落的，也就是說，我們看待我們自己國家，我們不能讓我們國家有任何陰暗的角落，最高的政治道德就是應該為我們2,300萬人民，不分藍、綠、白，不分他的信仰，我們要團結在一起，這就是你身為最高行政首長最首要的任務，所以我送這個圖案的意義就是期勉你要忍辱負重、任重道遠。","院長，我們這幾天看到的，不管是電視、廣播、網路，最大的一項我們政府的宣傳，現在我們集中在打詐四法通過了，我們要一致的打詐，可是我看到的成績，我實在是很不客氣的講，政府打詐越打越詐。天啊！我們前（111）年是2萬9,000件的詐欺件數，財產損失73億，院長，去年高達3萬8,000件，已經增高到88億元，今年更慘，今年尤其是我們宣告了好不容易7月份通過了打詐專法，結果打詐專法通過以後，這些詐騙集團集體的向我們政府公權力挑釁、宣戰！今年7月打詐專法通過以後，今年7月光是詐騙金額高達110億，不打緊，8月更高，又提升27億，達到137億，天啊！光是今年7月一個月就抵去年一整年，當然也贏過前年一整年，8月更是給我們政府重重一擊，不打緊，又更加強火力，達到137億。院長，這個……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我說明一下，我不敢否認打詐的事件還是很多，但是數字的差距是我們在計算呈現出來的標準是不一樣的，這個部分劉部長在先前的答詢也答詢過，我請劉部長再說明一次。"],["王委員世堅：好。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，跟你報告一下，我們以前在算打詐的案子把它當成刑案，譬如說現在在打詐，可能有一群人、十幾二十個人的話是算一個案，但是現在我們在院長的指示之下不能夠用這樣的方式，只要一案一個人就算一個案，一案十個人就算十個案……"],["王委員世堅：那金額怎麼講？對、對……"],["劉部長世芳：但是金額的部分……"],["王委員世堅：案數增加我知道，我認為這就像火災一樣，你們把認定的標準又放更高，這個是好、這個是對。"],["劉部長世芳：另外在165報進來的時候，報案人他的主觀上認定損失多少金額，我們就把它列進去，這就是為什麼每天打詐儀錶板都可以定時公布打詐的案數跟打詐的財損數，但是真正的部分要等我們變成全般刑案的時候再做。"],["王委員世堅：院長、部長，我講到打詐儀錶板、我講到165、我講到這個，我就想到數發部，這個數發部我簡單5個字──飯桶數發部！我不曉得它在幹什麼，打詐的事情完全落到警政署的手上，人家警政署至少有做點事，你剛剛講的165就是警政署做的。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["王委員世堅：院長，你知道嗎？警政署布置這個165app防詐專網，人家只花1,000萬，前幾天數位部搞了半天，千呼萬喚始出來，它搞一個app花6,000萬不打緊，那個6,000萬的app，大家可以去看，你現在上網馬上看，看它上面的評語是怎麼樣？花6,000萬，結果下面臭罵連連，滿意分數5分來講，它只有2.8分，然後現在數發部做不了任何事情，它每年增加預算，光這一點，部長，你先等一下，我先問一下院長，對數發部你要怎麼處理？你覺得它們這樣做對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員提醒。它本來要設立一個平台，讓所有收到這種錯誤訊息的人可以在平台上去查詢，這個在國內是創舉，我也請它參考國外的案例、國外的機制有沒有，它也說國外是沒有這樣這麼完全的一個機制，所以它現在在嘗試作業當中，現在已經把這個平台上網的時間延後到年底了，希望再做改善。"],["王委員世堅：我今天題外話講它，為什麼？因為它實在太飯桶！明年的預算87億，比今年增加21%，這也就算了，那個app你待會去看，5天前上線，這5天來負評如潮，它的負評大概是哪一些？人家說找不到通報功能、說介面差、說使用中國的用語，中共那邊的用語──優化，都在用中共那邊的用語；再來，通知後沒有結果──這是最糟糕。你看看人家警政署的165，至少那個165的功能，院長，你看一下畫面上165的功能，這麼多！這麼多花1,000萬，而這個飯桶數位部花了6倍的錢，下面負評如潮！所以，院長，我希望你今天就下令它乾脆撤掉算了！"],["卓院長榮泰：它已經重新再……"],["王委員世堅：我們全民就當作這些錢丟到水裡面，噗通一聲！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，抱歉，數發部已經在重新檢討，這個平台會往後延，希望再做裡面的改善。"],["王委員世堅：會往後延喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在初期看的時候也提出相關的……"],["王委員世堅：我看它延了就不要出來了啦！不要在那邊丟臉！一群飯桶啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我會嚴格的去檢視，未來的功能要呈現出來才讓它上架。"],["王委員世堅：它還多可惡的有哪一點？在負責跟國外這些網路平台──FB、Google、LINE，所有這些聯繫是由數發部，它老兄一點能力都沒有，什麼都沒幹！事實上，我們有很多可以用的，比方說，我們跟台日交流協會有一個司法合作備忘錄，它可以好好運用啊！它不！我們跟美國也有台美互助，台美司法互助已經有20年的歷史了，它不懂，它可以好好問警政署啊！好好談一談！所以我在想，時間到了，不用給它機會啦！要不然就直接交由內政部警政署，直接藉由台美司法互助、藉由台日之間的交流、司法的合作，這有簽合作備忘錄啊！我們趕緊跟他們來談，像這樣重大的詐騙案，如何讓LINE、讓Google、讓Facebook他們願意交付，喔！太多！現在還設置了這些平台，什麼Godaddy、Namesilo等等，一堆啦，他們現在都完全不搭理我們！數位部在聯絡上不但沒有達到任何結果，也沒有跟我們院內其他部會互相研究，統統沒有！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個平台如果達不到原來規劃以及報告的那個功能，可以很便民、讓人民能夠便利的而且很安全地使用，絕對不會輕易地上路。"],["王委員世堅：對！很好！有這一句答復，我覺得很夠！","好，對於我們的警察，我用三句話來形容：勞苦功高、出生入死、薪水過低！院長、部長，你們知道嗎？今年光是到前天的統計，我們已經有8位警察自殺身亡。不包括這8位，這5年來，我們有51件警察自殺的通報，其中有31位不幸身亡。我們查過，在這些不幸身亡的警察裡面，只有6位曾經接受過署裡面提供的心理諮商。也就是說，我們那個心理諮商的覆蓋率太低了。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們在努力改善、檢討當中。"],["王委員世堅：我覺得這跟待遇非常有關。你們知道嗎？院長、部長，現在速食店大夜班的員工新進人員起薪4萬1，我們做了5年的警察平均薪水是5萬2！好啦，現在警察招生廣告說有啦，警察薪水有6萬。但那是含其他，比方說首都有都會加給，還有含加班費等等的。所以我總而言之，一句話，這個結果會導致什麼？導致我們現在的警察人數嚴重不足！到去年底，全國總共缺了5,000位警察，所以院長、部長，這一點我們要積極下去做，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["王委員世堅：我最後一個問題是，昨天凌晨社子島又發生一場火災，那場火災還不算大型的喔，結果燒死一位民眾，有五位嗆傷，那個慘況！如果院長、部長稍微看了這個報導，就曉得社子島已經夠慘了，在那邊容留的租戶都還是透過社會局媒介過來的社會最底層的人，付出三、五千塊，五、六千塊這樣子的租金。所以院長、部長，我要說的就是，我們要趕快積極開發社子島！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["王委員世堅：社子島在臺北市政府尋求各方專家、民眾的意見之後，這個案子就是低密度的生態社子島開發，院長，我也獲得部長的首肯，部長也為了這個案子主動拜訪了蔣萬安市長……"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["王委員世堅：我認為這是我們在朝、在野合作的一個很好的案子，開發社子島不僅還給社子島民眾一個公道，同時也會帶動周邊社子（葫蘆）島、南港地區的發展，所以這個事情是迫在眉睫，應該立刻開發，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起來努力，這也是我曾經的選區，我們共同來關心！"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝。我們下一次總質詢見！"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位請高金素梅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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有去過那你有跟當地的居民聊過天嗎"},{"start":35.868,"end":42.378,"text":"你在你的施政報告裡面有提到說你每天最重要的工作你都是把人放在第一優先"},{"start":43.874,"end":43.954,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":63.052,"end":74.934,"text":"就是他明年4月要上路的這件事情其實很多的農民特別是在農業縣農民都非常的焦慮他們的焦慮感他們的心聲你有感受到嗎"},{"start":76.581,"end":93.615,"text":"我們有充分感受到所以我們是請農業部跟內政部積極跟大家來說明是不是有不了解的地方試圖能夠讓大家了解之後這個法是不是能夠順利的推動對我跟部長我跟院長報告到目前為止農民的焦慮沒有解除"},{"start":94.235,"end":105.835,"text":"我最近才上到阿里山山上跟山上的農民在晚上的時間大家坐下來聊天我認真的聽他們的心聲我現在也要把他們的心聲講給院長聽"},{"start":108.015,"end":123.88,"text":"他們非常的焦慮有的人他其實是已經很早就上山去開墾在那邊工作他很擔心這個法通過之後他熱愛的這個土地他以後沒有辦法在那邊工作有的人在那邊"},{"start":124.66,"end":140.738,"text":"他主先留給他們的茶農土地但是兄弟分一分之後土地沒有多少但是我現場很感動的是有一個親農他的兒子大學二年級他也來現場他反映他的心聲他假日他現在在幫他爸爸工作"},{"start":141.198,"end":141.318,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":164.312,"end":170.056,"text":"阿里山這樣一個地方是國際觀光著名的地標我們都希望爭取國際觀光客來可以上到阿里山阿里山的產業阿里山的高山茶我不曉得院長有沒有喝過應該有吧"},{"start":195.01,"end":208.893,"text":"國人也非常熱愛他現在還有阿里山的咖啡你有喝過嗎有有喝過嗎量太少了對量太少所以農民他們的焦慮是他們想要在這片土地他們在山上有的很久了他們想要認真的繼續工作繼續經營繼續把"},{"start":213.475,"end":213.875,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":236.471,"end":252.745,"text":"但是這一點即使嘉義縣政府開過了說明會嘉義縣政府也已經把這個分區圖送給中央了但是當地你可以看到所有的農民山上的農民一片的焦慮感問題通通都沒有解決"},{"start":253.746,"end":254.226,"text":"阿里山是觀光風景區﹖"},{"start":274.776,"end":302.841,"text":"加一縣政府跟我們討論過我們也許可以按照一個阿里山鄉鄉村地區整體規劃也就是把它變成是個鄉階計劃法的方式來推動剛剛你講的民宿也好或是有關阿里山的這些小商店家都把可能濃縮在裡面變成是個很好的一個地標來發展而不是外界所說的你化成國土計劃法就不能用然後農地的完全不能繼承是完全相反的我想有些人訊息不太明確"},{"start":303.601,"end":332.157,"text":"所以我們很願意再去阿里山鄉跟他們溝通我要跟你說的是農民當天就跟我反映他說縣政府這個答應他們就是說不會化成國一結果送上來你看這張圖這張圖整個阿里山地區國一就是深綠色這一片幾乎通通都是那一天晚上鄉親他們那麼焦慮的座談就是政府嘴巴答應我的跟實質送出來的其實是不一樣的"},{"start":333.117,"end":349.643,"text":"多數地方都被劃為國一了他們知道的情況是這樣他們自己也會去打聽他說原來答應我這個土地不會是國一的也都變成國一了他說不會結果通通劃成國一而且在你們現在的辦法裡面你知道你們的土是怎麼劃出來的嗎你們是用套土"},{"start":351.284,"end":374.122,"text":"鄉親還告訴我的是說都沒有來實際的場勘沒有一個實際找專業人士來探勘就說我的土地說是國一就是國一而且他說縣府就是用資料套土嘛你們就是大筆一揮而且不到兩公頃的地方不是國一的也可以畫為國一為了畫起來的圖更好看更完整"},{"start":375.043,"end":398.159,"text":"我要告訴部長我要告訴院長的是說財產涉及到每一個人民他最在乎的事情但這些事情我們絕對不可以便宜行事也不可以非常粗糙粗暴的就直接套土的方式然後就判定他的土地是屬於什麼農民是可以被溝通的也是可以被說服的"},{"start":399.019,"end":427.209,"text":"那我很感動的是他們是熱愛那個地方想要好好經營他不是想要去徒利變賣土地什麼的喔國益這邊很多的農民他們的情況他們是想要好好留在原地耕作好好保護這塊土地他們也知道水保的重要但是他說可不可以給我們一條路在兼顧保育水保跟他們的產業發展之間給他們一個路可以走可不可以"},{"start":427.469,"end":452.763,"text":"報告委員非常謝謝您的關心我想講的也非常的正確阿里山的這些農民朋友們他們知道國土保育跟它的相接發展兩個都要並重所以我剛剛才跟您提到第一個沒有到現場會刊也表示說功能分區圖送上來的時候我們還沒有完全審查完成審查作業的情況之下如果我們農民有這些意見我們會接到這個意見馬上要去進行就是說是不是真的是國土保育需要的"},{"start":453.263,"end":481.098,"text":"如果你沒有隨便亂畫我們也不希望用這種比較粗糙的方式處理功能分區圖所以我剛有跟委員報告現在縣政府跟我們在處理有關的阿里山鄉的鄉村地區的整體作業就是要回復剛剛所說的這些阿里山的居民們他們對這方面的疑慮那我們願意很誠懇來回答這個問題因為我們相信在阿里山鄉的這些朋友們他們不是為了炒作農地也不是財團炒作都是祖先留下來的"},{"start":481.738,"end":509.314,"text":"而且他們更了解現場的狀況如果他願意把現場的狀況告訴我們讓我們來套疊現在我們所知道的地質上的變化如果沒有真正是屬於潛在危險區或是環境敏感區的話他不應該用這樣比較粗糙的方式全部一塊就把它劃進去那不曉得我就問你你這個補救措施是要怎麼個做法因為我到9月份去到現場的時候根本也沒有這樣的做法也沒有這樣的說明"},{"start":510.174,"end":513.696,"text":"我跟委員報告在總諮詢開始的第一天到現在很多委員都關心過國土計畫法這個事情那第一天蔡議員委員也提過這個事情"},{"start":528.286,"end":551.52,"text":"所以我特別去了解現在嘉義縣政府在辦理一個剛剛部長說的阿里山鄉村地區整體規劃作業目前縣政府嘉義縣政府在按照各地的需求應該是有計劃在這裡做一個各地因地制宜的使用的管制規則況且功能圖送上來之後內政部還要做第二次的審查我覺得這個我們會更嚴謹的進行"},{"start":553.902,"end":580.04,"text":"對現在你們最大的問題是其實信義度是完全不夠的因為急著明年的4月要上路包括其實這個部長你們自己該完成的執法你們現在還有8項只是完成預告都還沒有經過你們的法規會的審議預告就是表示已經經過我們法規會審議只有一項是屬於這個土地管制上面需要做罰則的部分我認為罰則的部分盡量往後延所以只有一項還沒有處理"},{"start":580.76,"end":608.273,"text":"所以你這個還沒有都完成你的程序啊?公告需要長達60天以上的時間是啊所以你們現在這個執法都還沒有正式完成所有的公告之前就急著上路我要問一個問題是到目前為止22個縣市首長裡面有哪幾位首長是支持國土計劃法在明年4月如期上路?我們現在送到內政部來的是一共有13個縣市政府是啊對"},{"start":609.557,"end":626.425,"text":"所以沒有送上來的送上來就代表他認同嗎其實包括嘉義縣的翁章良縣長他真的認同嗎他之前他在上半年的時候他曾經有發表一個談話他希望國土計劃法要延期上路他送上來是送上來了"},{"start":627.105,"end":640.171,"text":"但是你真的認為宋上海縣市首長他們希望這個國土計畫把明年如期上路我想翁縣長他的本意是希望說我們有完整的配套措施那這個完整的配套措施現在就還沒有阿現在就是還沒有嘛所以我覺得這件事情真的"},{"start":647.734,"end":647.794,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":669.938,"end":670.758,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":692.329,"end":692.609,"text":"國家必須有"},{"start":711.175,"end":711.395,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":733.863,"end":734.503,"text":"我希望這個法要暫緩實施先溝通再上路"},{"start":756.388,"end":781.354,"text":"第2個是不是可以請部長你到第一線去聽聽鄉親真正的意見到目前為止我想你得到的都是間接式的傳達上來到目前為止你有到第一線去開過任何一場公聽會真的聽到農民第一線的心聲嗎我們大概是跟一些團體然後跟縣市政府一起開會在中部地區有開過有沒有跟農民面對面的農會有"},{"start":783.234,"end":783.454,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":800.05,"end":800.21,"text":"是的,謝謝委員"},{"start":817.043,"end":843.311,"text":"那接下來呢我要再問一個是關於這個一樣是國土的問題但是是不一樣的情景我們現在在推動這個光電是如火如土但是一方面我們重視國土保育但是對於光電業者呢我們其實是毫不設防他們好像想怎麼蓋愛怎麼蓋通通都沒有問題甚至這個部長你是不是有Quota的壓力你連你的這個"},{"start":844.811,"end":867.074,"text":"你自己所掌管的國家公園你一開始都還要去大量鋪設這個光電板是不是報告委員這個完全錯誤第一個我們現在國家公園有管理中心就是在國家公園裡面但是他們在重建或是建造的過程當中他們用的是燃油發電機那這些對於國家公園來講我們要求的是碳排"},{"start":867.714,"end":885.48,"text":"所以我要求國家公園的管理中心自己本身的房舍或者是民宿的那些地方未來他們就是要用太陽能發電減少到處設立一些電線桿要從我們的台灣的平地上面輸送電到上面去只是這樣而已沒有其他的任何計畫"},{"start":886.28,"end":887.381,"text":"會再擴大嗎?因為你們這樣子 連環團都跳出來講話了"},{"start":907.711,"end":924.926,"text":"好 所以這個部分我希望這個要有把關的機制另外一個我要跟院長也是人民要跟院長請命這個在嘉愛縣有一個地方叫大埔大埔這個地方我想兩位可能還沒有機會上到這麼遠的地方曾文水庫有部分就是在大埔下"},{"start":925.646,"end":952.279,"text":"那大埔的居民現在也是一樣很困擾就是在他們熱愛這片土地上面的光電業者進來了然後不需要經過他們的同意然後這些光電板愛怎麼鋪設就怎麼鋪設愛怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋他蓋到連這個當地的議員議會都做成決議要求光電業者要停工可是有沒有效"},{"start":953.097,"end":953.337,"text":"請光電業者與居民多溝通"},{"start":976.462,"end":1001.552,"text":"院長跟部長看一下這是人民的苦就是它的光電板布滿了這個學校跟老人活動中心的旁邊你看到的這個建築物這個建築物裡面就是有在供餐但是老人的食堂然後它旁邊通通都是光電板它不是在屋頂發電它是旁邊布滿了光電板"},{"start":1002.612,"end":1020.22,"text":"居民非常的無力然後抗議然後通通都沒有用那這一個業者呢我想可能他也是仿照這個臺南有個弊案小二甲弊案這個院長應該非常清楚當時他就是規避嘛他就是一塊一塊這樣子"},{"start":1022.52,"end":1034.385,"text":"聽說這案也是就是他就是不同的以為是在自己家屋頂就是蓋光電門所以沒有問題不需要太多審查結果這個化整為零的模式一個一個進來就變成是這樣子一大片"},{"start":1035.404,"end":1060.794,"text":"那這個也沒有環境評估它的光害你可以看到嘛這麼大片它不是在屋頂喔它是在比較低的地方這陽光一照射產生的光害這也沒有辦法管然後現在極端氣候那個產生的熱鬧現在整個的熱氣上來也沒有辦法管請問這個怎麼辦人民怎麼辦人民要跟誰求助地方政府看起來沒有辦法"},{"start":1062.067,"end":1062.087,"text":"國務委員"},{"start":1085.128,"end":1085.268,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":1103.832,"end":1103.972,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":1120.728,"end":1132.702,"text":"我現在是有一個平台這個平台雖然是犯罪的平台不是犯罪阿我說有一個受理犯罪的平台那另外就是說我們也希望地方政府能夠負起責任比如說我那天到台南我就發覺說"},{"start":1134.113,"end":1134.553,"text":"院長我就問你"},{"start":1156.383,"end":1180.965,"text":"像這樣子的一個情況我看到幾個問題第一個光天夜人他的設置他完全不需要居民的同意以我剛剛給你看的這張圖那個就是看起來很離譜但是他完全不需要當地居民的同意他只要有辦法取得用地他就可以蓋那這個怎麼辦雲林縣縣長我記得他也曾經反映過就是說現在的評估裡面都不需要有居民同意的這一項"},{"start":1181.866,"end":1208.17,"text":"那結果人民就束手無策啊因為不需要經過我們同意啊光電業者只要有辦法取得土地他愛怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋所以我覺得這個部分應該要讓居民有同意權喔第二個民生聚落當中學校醫院老人長照中心這附近可以這樣子嗎就是如入無人之境然後鋪滿了光電板嗎這個部分完全沒有去設這個整個光電板面積的上限"},{"start":1208.71,"end":1236.244,"text":"這完全是不符合比例嘛我們當時鼓勵設置光電是在空曠的大範圍的而且不是在農業用地上面的大量鋪設這一種已經是社區式的民宅它還不是在每一個人住家上面的屋頂它不是屋頂啊它是在旁邊的空地上面鋪滿了這樣的一個光電板這樣子可以嗎第三個人民就是沒有求助的管道中央目前為止我看不到任何一個部會可以受理人民的陳情啊"},{"start":1237.024,"end":1256.691,"text":"經濟部不用講他是跟光電業者一起的他們要共同開發的那還有哪一個部會可以受理人民像這樣子求助無門呢院長我希望你回去之後你是不是可以去研議開會討論一下如果地方還有這種爭議人民求助無門的你應該要指定一個部會指定一個窗口來受理這樣的案件吧"},{"start":1257.271,"end":1285.629,"text":"這樣才是真的把人民放在你的心上當年我們鼓勵屋頂型跟地上型地上型的地點應該不容許這樣子看到哪裡射到哪裡現在就是這樣啊對於一些居住環境甚至交通安全的顧慮都必須要有的這個我會請經濟部來做一個廣泛性的檢討那希望我可以把這個個案的地點告訴我們好我一定要告訴你這個是大埔鄉民的一個痛接下來這個案子我希望這個"},{"start":1287.267,"end":1308.613,"text":"部長跟院長真的要好好正式處理剛上午我有聽到這個院長在回答委員諮詢說其實一塊錢都不能浪費我也很同意但是一塊錢都不能浪費在內政部審理的計畫當中我就看到了這個疑似有圖利的情況這個要好好的嚴查嚴辦"},{"start":1310.694,"end":1318.404,"text":"我先請教這個部長你的內政部永續提升人行安全計畫你現在總共"},{"start":1320.694,"end":1345.473,"text":"送出來的計劃有幾案你知道嗎全國各縣市相當的多但是我們通過的沒有那麼多因為現在只有剩下下半年的時間而已對 送了262案你只通過175案高達27億然後你這個是全國競爭型的你這一個人行安全計劃你是要有急迫性的要優先補助"},{"start":1346.775,"end":1352.253,"text":"然後卓院長你要建立一個以人為本的交通環境我們就來看接下來這個案子"},{"start":1353.5,"end":1377.787,"text":"這個案子呢 這個表格上面這10件的案子當中 有一件他是道路改善工程計劃 你們核定了1500萬其他所有的案子都是通學步道 都是國中國小或是人行道的改善其中有一案呢 通過了1500萬 他是道路改善工程計劃"},{"start":1379.187,"end":1399.31,"text":"我讓兩位看一下這個圖他要改善什麼樣的道路這個是在嘉義縣水上鄉這個道路大家看到這個圖他有一間私人的殯儀館正在興建當中他要改善的這個道路旁邊都沒有住家也沒有學校"},{"start":1400.492,"end":1420.665,"text":"然後這個旁邊這個實照圖也沒有商圈更不是都市計畫區之內那這個地方我實地有去看了一下我最近常常在跑家有些我有去看你不要說行人車輛都很少然後就是有一間興建中的私人的殯儀館"},{"start":1422.557,"end":1451.262,"text":"那不知道他的急迫性在哪裡這個是這個是以人為本基本上要有一些行人吧對不對看起來這個是非常偏僻的一個地方然後重點是你們在審查會議的時候審查委員的意見這個兩位聽一下現地人車流量低交通量低"},{"start":1452.881,"end":1477.973,"text":"表示說沒什麼人也沒什麼車他說建議考量人行通道的連續性因為看起來他沒有這個不是連續性的行人通道委員更說基於都市計劃區外周邊土地使用非居民的居住地"},{"start":1479.232,"end":1480.473,"text":"最後一個委員這個很關鍵本案似乎是以道路拓寬為主要目的"},{"start":1510.071,"end":1526.151,"text":"請教院長如果一個案子是以道路拓寬為主要目的當地不是都市計劃區內也不是學校也沒有人行然後有一個興建中的殯儀館這個案子為什麼可以通過"},{"start":1527.493,"end":1550.166,"text":"報告委員我想您提到的這個部分我們來審查我們來查一下因為計劃審查的過程當中通常我們會委託學者專家那他所提的這個案件送到我們內政部的國土署在審查的過程當中為什麼最後是核定1500萬您剛有提到黨土牆其實在人行道的安全上面黨土牆確實是有必要的"},{"start":1550.786,"end":1550.946,"text":"道路拓寬"},{"start":1562.267,"end":1587.936,"text":"我希望院長可以回答一下 院長你這樣聽完沒有覺得你說一塊錢都不應該浪費吧那一塊錢都不應該去圖利私人的業者那這個案子你這樣子 如果你是審查委員的話聽到審查委員講的這麼多連計畫的名稱跟原來要改善這個人行安全通通都無關他計畫就大剌剌的寫著道路改善工程"},{"start":1588.936,"end":1616.719,"text":"那這樣的案子夾雜的上來在審查會議當中如果你作為會議主席你會讓這樣的案子過嗎是 謝謝委員 審查委員當然是秉於專業來看交通的設施他也提出很多意見當事者有一定有提出他的需求我想還是請內政部去了解一下審查的過程甚至地方政府為何提出這樣的一個需求他的真正的用意目的到底在哪裡我們要了解之後才讓這個"},{"start":1618.482,"end":1646.81,"text":"補助能夠有效或是做其他的考慮的執行但是一定要聽聽當事者的地方政府提出這個需求跟理由你不覺得這個當中有很大的弊端的存在嗎怎麼會這麼的奇怪呢其他的案子都很正常改善通學步道我想這個是也是落實你說以人為本嗎真的有人潮的我們才在做這件事嗎但是沒有的為什麼可以送上這樣的一個案子"},{"start":1647.526,"end":1658.769,"text":"而且還通過了這個時間點我還不管下這麼大的斷語但是那你要不要查這個有必要讓我們院長我問你你要不要去徹查我會請內政部完全充分了解"},{"start":1659.977,"end":1688.163,"text":"要調查吧要好好的調查吧我在一頁提供你一個資訊參考這一個殯儀館現在在興建當中過去它其實在地方上有一些爭議它是山坡地保育地變更為殯葬用地而且它很巧妙的規避了這一個一萬平方公尺需要還平的規定就9989平方公尺"},{"start":1689.229,"end":1717.369,"text":"那這當中當然還涉及了這個過去這個企業呢他其實曾經停業然後又變成另外一家公司然後過去在另外一家企業的時候有當時時任立委的子女還在裡面擔任董事這個在地方上面大家議論紛紛那我不知道這一件事情跟這一家殯儀館到底有沒有關係但是我們再回放我們去看剛剛給大家看的那個圖就是"},{"start":1719.713,"end":1726.166,"text":"這個實景圖就是長這樣子了就是這個可能你們要好好去調查到底這當中有沒有什麼相關聯"},{"start":1727.659,"end":1747.205,"text":"因為真的是路上就是沒有住家跟商圈沒有行人跟車流那它就不是在都市計畫那它改善的路段為什麼這個是人行安全不懂沒有人在行走的為什麼是改善人行安全那我們真的就只有看到一家的私人殯儀館還在興建當中"},{"start":1750.446,"end":1774.299,"text":"這當中不曉得有沒有任何的關係所以今天利用總質詢我想因為院長在我也希望把這樣的情況就是讓院長你可以了解那你有說過一塊錢都不應該浪費那我認為一塊錢也都不應該去圖利私人如果有圖利的行為這是絕對不允許的因為"},{"start":1775.638,"end":1800.294,"text":"以剛剛講的這些計劃當中 送來的那麼多案子 262案只通過175案 我不知道這當中還有多少人家是真正要改善人行道行人安全的計劃 被排除在外結果你們通過了一件是這種跟這個八竿子打不著的 是道路拓寬計劃的案子夾雜在裡面 而且經費還高達1500萬"},{"start":1802.635,"end":1826.784,"text":"這件案子 院長你是不是承諾你真的會好好去調查你讓人民知道真相到底是什麼好不好會請內政部好好去瞭解這個事情瞭解之後馬上向委員說明好 我希望這個院長好好把事情來龍去脈 調查清楚我們也不允許這樣的情況好 謝謝王委員 謝謝卓院長下一位我們請王世堅委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:47:54 - 11:18:23","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155248","gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時47分）謝謝主席，是不是有請卓院長？"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：院長好。院長，請問你就任到現在有沒有去過阿里山？"],["卓院長榮泰：有一次小火車搭到鐵路不能通的地方。"],["王委員育敏：有去過嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：有去過。"],["王委員育敏：那你有跟當地的居民聊過天嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為那天主要是看鐵道修復的狀況。"],["王委員育敏：所以沒有空嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["王委員育敏：你在你的施政報告裡面有提到，你每天最重要的工作都是把人放在第一優先，對不對？我有觀察到你這次施政報告，你試圖帶入比較有溫度的，就是把你到每一個場域所看到的人的感受都放進去，基本上我非常肯定這一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：因為執政其實就是要為人民服務嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員育敏：接下來我就要請教你這次的國土計畫法明年4月要上路的這件事，其實很多農民，特別是在農業縣，農民都非常地焦慮，他們的焦慮感、他們的心聲，你有感受到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有充分感受到，所以我們請農業部跟內政部積極來跟大家說明，看是不是有不瞭解的地方，試圖讓大家瞭解之後，這個法是不是能夠順利地推動。"],["王委員育敏：對，我跟院長報告，到目前為止，農民的焦慮沒有解除。我最近才上到阿里山山上，跟山上的農民們在晚上時間坐下來聊天，我認真地聽他們的心聲，我現在也要把他們的心聲講給院長聽。他們非常地焦慮，有的人其實已經很早就上山開墾、在那邊工作，他很擔心這個法通過之後，他熱愛的這個土地，以後就沒有辦法在那邊工作。有的人則是祖先在那邊留給他們一個茶農土地，但是兄弟分一分之後，分到的土地沒有多少。現場讓我很感動的是，有一個青農，他大學二年級的兒子也到現場來反映他的心聲，現在假日他在幫爸爸工作，然後他也希望可以繼承爸爸的職業，但是爸爸希望他的這個茶可以再多一點，畢竟他現在種得很有成就感，也希望他兒子接手後可以再多一點，但是國土計畫法通過之後，他擔心他的兒子沒有辦法在這片土地再繼續地耕作。有的人在山上做的是民宿或者是露營的用地，他說，政府大筆一揮，表示他們這邊是大面積的崩塌，而他在那邊幾十年，卻從來沒有崩塌過，但是卻被劃為是這樣的地方，然後一直廣告、一直宣傳說它是大規模崩塌地，人家都嚇得不敢來。","阿里山這樣一個地方是國際觀光著名的地標，我們都希望爭取國際觀光客，讓他們可以上到阿里山。阿里山的產業中，像阿里山的高山茶，我不曉得院長有沒有喝過，應該有吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常好。"],["王委員育敏：非常好，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：國際馳名，國人也非常熱愛。"],["王委員育敏：現在還有阿里山的咖啡，你有喝過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有！"],["王委員育敏：有喝過嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：量太少了。"],["王委員育敏：對，量太少。所以農民他們的焦慮是，因為有的人在山上很久了，他們想要認真地在這一片土地上繼續耕作、繼續經營、繼續把整個嘉義縣的觀光做得更好、將阿里山的觀光做得更好，但是新通過的、未來要通過的國土計畫法，讓每一個人充滿了焦慮感，他們沒有辦法確定他們可以在這一片土地繼續地生活，所以他們的訴求是，他們希望來捍衛他們在那邊的基本生計跟財產權。","就這一點，即使嘉義縣政府開過了說明會，嘉義縣政府也已經把分區圖送給中央了，但是在當地你可以看到，所有的農民，包括山上的農民，卻是一片的焦慮感，問題通通都沒有解決，在這樣的情況底下，我們要怎麼上路？我們要怎麼上路？請問一下部長，這樣要怎麼上路？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我跟您補充一下，第一個，農一、農二的劃法，跟現在的區域計畫法完全一模一樣；再加上一個……"],["王委員育敏：這裡是國一。"],["劉部長世芳：對，阿里山現在如果是一個觀光風景區的話，嘉義縣政府有跟我們討論過，我們也許可以按照一個阿里山鄉鄉村地區的整體規劃，也就是把它變成是個鄉街計畫法的方式來推動，剛剛你講的民宿也好，或是有關阿里山的這些小商店家，都把他們濃縮在裡面，變成是一個很好的地標來發展，而不是外界所說的，劃成國土計畫法就不能用，然後農地完全不能繼承，這是完全相反的，我想有些人的訊息不太明確，所以我們很願意再去阿里山鄉跟他們溝通。"],["王委員育敏：我要跟你說的是，農民當天就跟我反映，他說縣政府答應他們不會劃成國一，結果送上來後，你看這張圖，整個阿里山地區，國一就是深綠色的這一片，幾乎通通都是啊！那天晚上鄉親他們那麼焦慮的座談，就是因為政府嘴巴答應的跟實質送出來的，其實是不一樣的，就是多數地方都被劃為國一了，他們知道的情況是這樣，他們自己也會去打聽，他說原來答應的是這個土地不會劃成國一的，後來也都變成國一了，即他說不會這樣，結果通通被劃成國一。而且在你們現在的辦法裡面，你知道你們的圖是怎麼劃出來的嗎？你們是用套圖欸！鄉親還告訴我，你們都沒有來實際的場勘，都沒有實際找專業人士來探勘，就說他的土地是國一就是國一，而且他說縣府就是用資料套圖嘛！你們就是大筆一揮。而且不到兩公頃的地方，不是國一的也可以劃為國一，就是為了讓劃起來的圖更好看、更完整。","我要告訴院長、部長的是，財產涉及到每一個人民，是他最在乎的事情，但這件事情我們絕對不可以便宜行事。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["王委員育敏：也不可以非常粗糙、粗暴地就直接以套圖的方式，然後就判定他的土地是屬於什麼。農民是可以被溝通的，也是可以被說服的，我很感動的是他們熱愛那個地方，想要好好經營，並不是想要去圖利、變賣土地什麼的……"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["王委員育敏：國一這邊有很多的農民，他們是想要好好留在原地耕作，好好保護這塊土地，他們也知道水保的重要，但是他說：可不可以給我們一條路？在兼顧保育、水保跟產業發展之間，給他們一條路可以走，可不可以？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，非常謝謝您的關心，委員講的非常正確，阿里山這些農民朋友們知道國土保育跟他們鄉街發展兩個都要並重。所以我剛才跟您提到，第一個，沒有到現場會勘，也表示功能分區圖送上來的時候，我們還沒有完全審查。完成審查作業的情況之下，如果農民有意見，我們接到意見後馬上要去進行，以確定是不是真的是國土保育所需要的，如果沒有，隨便亂畫，我們也不希望用這種比較粗糙的方式來處理功能分區圖。所以我剛才有跟委員報告，現在縣政府跟我們正在處理有關阿里山鄉鄉村地區的整體作業，就是要回復剛剛所說的阿里山居民們對這方面的疑慮，我們願意很誠懇來回答這個問題，因為我們相信，阿里山鄉的這些朋友們不是為了炒作農地，也不是財團炒作，而都是祖先留下來的……"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["劉部長世芳：而且他們更了解現場狀況！如果他願意把現場狀況告訴我們，讓我們套疊在我們所知道的現在地質上的變化，如果沒有真正屬於潛在危險區或是環境敏感區的話，就不應該用這樣比較粗糙的方式，全部一塊劃進去。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我問你，補救措施要怎麼做？我9月份到現場時，根本沒有這樣的作法，也沒有這樣的說明。他們告訴我，縣府已經把功能分區圖送上來，他們這邊就是國一，所以他們非常焦慮。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，從總質詢開始的第一天到現在，很多委員都關心過國土計畫法這件事。蔡易餘委員第一天也提過這件事情，所以我特別去了解。現在嘉義縣政府在辦理剛剛部長說的阿里山鄉村地區整體規劃作業，目前嘉義縣政府按照各地的需求，應該是有計畫在這裡做各地因地制宜的使用管制規則。況且功能圖送上來之後，內政部還要做第二次審查，這個我們會更嚴謹地進行。"],["王委員育敏：對，現在你們最大的問題是細膩度完全不夠，因為急著明年4月要上路。部長，你們該完成的子法中，現在還有八項只完成預告，都還沒有經過你們法規會的審議。"],["劉部長世芳：預告就表示已經經過我們法規會的審議，只有一項是屬於土地管制上需要的罰則部分，我認為罰則部分要儘量往後延，所以只有一項還沒有處理。"],["王委員育敏：所以你還沒有完成程序啊。"],["劉部長世芳：公告需要長達60天以上時間。"],["王委員育敏：是啊，所以在子法都還沒有正式完成公告之前就急著上路！我要問你的一個問題是，到目前為止，22個縣市首長裡，有哪幾位首長支持國土計畫法在明年4月如期上路？"],["劉部長世芳：現在送到內政部來的一共有13個縣市政府。"],["王委員育敏：是啊。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["王委員育敏：所以沒有送上來的……送上來就代表它認同嗎？其實嘉義縣的翁章梁縣長真的認同嗎？他在上半年曾經發表過一個談話，希望國土計畫法延期上路。他是送上來了，但你真的認為送上來的縣市首長希望國土計畫法明年如期上路嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想翁縣長的本意是希望我們有完整的配套措施，而這個完整的配套措施……"],["王委員育敏：現在就還沒有啊！"],["劉部長世芳：內政部跟農業部要能夠一起進行……"],["王委員育敏：現在就是還沒有。"],["劉部長世芳：這一點我們會努力來改進。"],["王委員育敏：所以我覺得這件事情真的可以再好好去跟鄉親溝通。院長，我要告訴你的是：人真的很重要。像嘉義縣這樣的地方多數被劃在國土保育區，但如果因為這樣就沒有辦法有生計、產業也無法發展，我覺得這樣是不對的！我們應該可以在保育跟生計、跟產業發展之間找到一條路，一條平衡的道路，讓這件事情更圓滿上路，而不是讓鄉親們充滿了焦慮。你知道嗎？到目前為止，鄉親還會一直問我：委員，國土計畫法真的要如期上路嗎？我們怎麼辦？每天都生活在這種焦慮感裡面。院長，我覺得你有責任，你應該要拍板，你應該不要讓這些鄉親充滿焦慮！如果現在還沒有做足準備，為什麼一定要明年如期上路？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，國家必須要有必要的、充足的農地來從事生產，這個原則我們定下來。再來，任何一個法律，如果讓農民或是國人的土地因為一個法律讓他們像委員所說的沒有辦法做其他的使用或限制太強，我想這個法律本身就值得我們來深思熟慮，所以整個執行的過程，我還是希望能跟農民朋友說清楚、講明白，到底農民的權益受損跟沒有受損在哪裡，讓農民能夠完全支持之後，這個法才有辦法有效的上路。當然，地方政府的配合也是極其需要的。"],["王委員育敏：好，我在這邊有三個建議，第一個，我希望這個法要暫緩實施，先溝通，先溝通再上路。第二個，是不是可以請部長到第一線去聽聽鄉親真正的意見，到目前為止，我想你得到的都是間接式的傳達上來，到目前為止，你有到第一線去開過任何一場公聽會，真的聽到農民第一線的心聲嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們大概是跟一些團體，然後跟縣市政府一起開會，在中部地區有開過……"],["王委員育敏：有沒有跟農民面對面的？"],["劉部長世芳：農會有，農民比較沒有。"],["王委員育敏：農民沒有嘛，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對，沒有。"],["王委員育敏：我真的強烈建議部長，你可以到第一線去……"],["劉部長世芳：好，我會去。"],["王委員育敏：你聽到的就會是最真實的聲音，如果你願意到嘉義縣來的話，本席也願意陪你一起來聽這些農民的聲音。"],["劉部長世芳：我來安排。"],["王委員育敏：你看你的時間。","農民的生計和產業的發展真的非常的重要，我覺得他們都非常辛苦，所以我希望我們以人為施政優先的目標，要把農民澈澈底底放在心上，照顧他們的權益，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：接下來我要再問的一樣是關於國土的問題，但是是不一樣的情景，我們現在在推動光電是如火如荼，一方面我們重視國土保育，但是對於光電業者其實是毫不設防，他們好像想怎麼蓋、愛怎麼蓋統統都沒有問題，甚至部長你是不是有quota的壓力，所以連你自己所掌管的國家公園一開始都還要去大量鋪設光電板，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這個完全錯誤。第一個，我們現在國家公園有管理中心，就是在國家公園裏面，但是他們在重建或建造的過程中，他們用的是燃油發電機，這些對於國家公園來講，我們要求的是碳排，所以我要求國家公園管理中心自己本身的房舍或民宿等地方未來就是要用太陽能發電，減少到處設立一些電線桿要從臺灣的平地上輸送電到上面去，只是這樣而已，沒有其他的任何計畫……"],["王委員育敏：不會再擴大嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們七、八個國家公園裏面所產生的碳排量總共就三千多噸而已，其實並不多，我想外界做太擴大的解釋，對於未來我們在國家公園的管理上面反而是很大的困擾，這點也請委員幫我們澄清。"],["王委員育敏：好，因為你們這樣子，連環團都跳出來講話了……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有，環團是支持我們的。"],["王委員育敏：好，所以這個部分，我希望要有把關的機制。","另外一個，我要跟院長，也是人民要跟院長請命，在嘉義縣有個地方叫做大埔，大埔這個地方我想兩位可能還沒機會上到這麼遠的地方，曾文水庫有部分就是在大埔鄉。大埔的居民現在也是一樣很困擾，就是在他們熱愛的這片土地上，光電業者進來了，不需要經過他們的同意，這些光電板愛怎鋪設就怎鋪設，愛怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋，蓋到連當地的議員、議會都做成決議要求光電業者要停工，可是有沒有效？沒有強制力欸！沒有效！他繼續施工、繼續蓋，然後議員帶著鄉親到現場去抗議、到嘉義縣政府去抗議，有沒有效？沒有效，縣長說那就請光電業者和居民多溝通。你知道他蓋到怎樣的情況嗎？這個圖讓院長跟部長看一下，這是人民的苦啊，光電板布滿了學校跟老人活動中心的旁邊，你看到的這個建築物的裡面是有在供餐的，是老人的食堂，旁邊統統都是光電板，不是在屋頂發電，是旁邊布滿光電板，居民非常的無力，然後去抗議也統統都沒有用，這個業者我想可能他也是仿造臺南有個弊案，小二甲弊案，這個院長應該非常清楚，當時就是要規避嘛，所以一塊一塊的，聽說這一案也是，就是不同的，以為是在自家屋頂蓋光電板，所以沒有問題，也不需要太多審查，結果以化整為零的模式，一個一個進來就變成這樣一大片，這個也沒有環境評估。他的光害，你可以看到嘛，這麼大片的光電板，不是在屋頂，而是在比較低的地方，陽光一照射產生的光害，這也沒有辦法管，然後現在極端氣候產生的熱島效應，整個熱氣上來，也沒有辦法管，請問這個怎麼辦？人民怎麼辦？人民要跟誰求助？地方政府看起來也沒有辦法！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們在各地農民、漁民的種電的過程中，我上次到臺南去有特別提到農漁要優先，照顧大家的權益，所以我們提出制度要透明、過程要簡化，如果有不法，我們有一個綠能犯罪平臺，希望大家來檢舉，甚至我們說公私部門，法務部跟各地的地方政府也要合作，針對這些不法，這件看起來就算不是不法，也是有不當的問題。"],["王委員育敏：對啊，那怎麼辦呢？這是嚴重的不當啊！然後我覺得老百姓真的很苦耶，求助縣府也沒有用，縣議會都已經要求他停工，但是也約束不了，我們中央沒有任何一個部會有辦法管他的，內政部受理人民陳情，內政部管嗎？我們現在中央根本沒有一個，就是當地方都無能為力的時候，請問院長，中央有哪個部會可以受理人民的陳情？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在就有一個平臺，這個平臺雖然是犯罪的平臺，但如果說……"],["王委員育敏：不是犯罪啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我說有一個受理犯罪的平臺。另外就是我們也希望地方政府能夠負起責任，比方說我那天到臺南就發現養殖面積現在還有2萬多公頃可以做，我說不需要這麼多，我們把不適合開放的地方縮起來，希望以後不要造成這樣的現象，但是已經發生的可能有契約的問題或現在在進行當中，能不能進行一個有效的，讓現在的光害或傷害能夠減少……"],["王委員育敏：院長，我就問你，像這樣的情況，我看到幾個問題，第一個，光電業者要設置光電板完全不需要居民的同意，以我剛剛給你看的這張圖，那個看起來就是很離譜，但是他完全不需要當地居民的同意，只要有辦法取得用地就可以蓋，這個怎麼辦？我記得雲林縣縣長也曾經反映過，就是在現在的評估裡面都不需要有居民同意的這一項，結果人民就束手無策啊，因為不需要經過我們的同意啊！光電業者只要有辦法取得土地，愛怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋，所以我覺得這個部分應該要讓居民有同意權。","第二個，民生聚落當中，學校、醫院、老人長照中心附近，這附近可以這樣子嗎？可以如入無人之境的鋪滿光電板嗎？這部分完全沒有設光電板面積的上限，這完全不符合比例嘛！我們當時鼓勵設置光電是在空曠的、大範圍的，而且不是在農業用地上大量鋪設，這種已經是社區式的民宅，他還不是在每個人的住家上的屋頂……"],["卓院長榮泰：屋頂型。"],["王委員育敏：他不是屋頂，而是在旁邊的空地上面鋪滿光電板，這樣可以嗎？","第三個，人民沒有求助的管道，中央到目前為止，我看不到任何一個部會可以受理人民陳情，經濟部不用講，它是跟光電業者一起的，他們要共同開發，那還有哪個部會可以受理人民的陳情？像這樣子求助無門耶！","院長，我希望你回去之後是不是可以研議或開會討論一下，如果地方還有這種爭議，人民求助無門的，你應該指定一個部會、指定一個窗口來受理這樣的案件吧，這樣才是真的把人民放在你的心上。"],["卓院長榮泰：當年我們是鼓勵屋頂型跟地上型，地上型的地點應該不容許這樣看到哪裡就設到哪裡，很多……"],["王委員育敏：現在就是這樣啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對於居住環境，甚至交通安全的顧慮都必須要有的，這個我會請經濟部來做個廣泛性的檢討，希望委員把這個個案的地點告訴我們，我們來了解。"],["王委員育敏：好，我一定會告訴你，這個是大埔鄉民的一個痛。","接下來這個案子，我希望部長和院長真的要好好正視、處理，剛剛上午我聽到院長回答委員質詢的時候有說其實一塊錢都不能浪費，我也很同意，但是一塊錢都不能浪費，在內政部審理的計畫案當中，我就看到了疑似有圖利的情況，這個要好好的嚴查嚴辦。我先請教部長，內政部「永續提升人行安全計畫」，現在總共送出來的計畫有幾案，你知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：全國各縣市相當的多，但是我們通過的沒有那麼多，因為現在只剩下下半年的時間而已。"],["王委員育敏：對，送了262案，你只通過175案，高達27億。這是全國競爭型的，這個人行安全計畫是有急迫性的要優先補助，卓院長你說要建立一個以人為本的交通環境，我們就來看接下來這個案子。表格上面這十件案子當中，有一件是道路改善工程計畫，你們核定了1,500萬，其他所有的案子都是通學步道，都是國中、國小或是人行道的改善，其中有一案通過了1,500萬，它是道路改善工程計畫。","我讓兩位看一下這個圖，它要改善什麼樣的道路呢？這個是在嘉義縣水上鄉，大家看到這個圖，這個道路旁有一間私人的殯儀館正在興建當中，他要改善的這個道路旁邊都沒有住家，也沒有學校，從旁邊的實照圖看起來也沒有商圈，更不是都市計畫區之內。這個地方我有實地去看了一下，我最近常常在跑嘉義，所以我有去看，不要說行人，連車輛都很少，然後就是有一間興建中的私人殯儀館，不知道它的急迫性在哪裡？","這個計畫是以人為本，基本上要有一些行人，對不對？看起來這是非常偏僻的一個地方。重點是在審查會議的時候審查委員的意見，這部分兩位聽一下，有委員說現地人車流量低、交通量低，表示說沒什麼人也沒什麼車；然後有委員說建議考量人行通道的連續性，因為看起來它不是連續性的行人通道；更有委員說，基地位於都市計畫區外，周邊土地使用非居民的聚居地，因為真的旁邊沒有人，不知道為什麼要做；還有委員說，應該確認民眾支援的需求性有多高，也就是不知道它的需求性在哪裡；然後也有委員提到，擋土牆的費用占總經費的四分之一，當地使用率偏低；最後一個委員說的這個很關鍵，本案似乎是以道路拓寬為主要目的。","請教院長，如果一個案子是以道路拓寬為主要目的，當地不是都市計畫區內，也不是學校，也沒有人行通道，然後有一個興建中的殯儀館，這個案子為什麼可以通過？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，您提到的這部分，我們來查一下，因為計畫審查的過程當中，通常我們會委託學者專家，他所提的這個案件送到我們內政部的國土署，在審查的過程當中，為什麼最後是核定1,500萬？您剛有提到擋土牆，其實在人行道的安全上面，擋土牆確實是有必要的，但是如果它是以道路拓寬為主要目的的話，可能跟你剛剛所說的是競爭型計畫完全不太相關，讓我們有時間來查一下，再跟委員報告，好嗎？"],["王委員育敏：我希望院長可以回答一下。院長，你這樣聽完有沒有覺得，你說一塊錢都不應該浪費嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員育敏：那一塊錢都不應該去圖利私人的業者。這個案子，如果你是審查委員的話，聽到審查委員講了這麼多，連計畫的名稱都跟原來要改善人行安全通通無關，它的計畫就大喇喇的寫著道路改善工程，這樣的案子送上來，在審查會議當中，如果你作為會議主席，你會讓這樣的案子過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員。審查委員當然是秉於專業來看交通的設施，但是……"],["王委員育敏：他也提出很多意見。"],["卓院長榮泰：當事者也一定有提出他的需求，我想還是請內政部去了解一下審查的過程，甚至地方政府為何提出這樣的一個需求，他真正的用意、目的到底在哪裡？我們要了解之後，才讓這個補助能夠有效或是考慮做其他的執行，但是一定要聽聽當事者對地方政府提出的需求跟理由。"],["王委員育敏：你不覺得這個當中有很大的弊端存在嗎？怎麼會這麼的奇怪呢？其他的案子都很正常，我想改善通學步道也是落實你說的以人為本嘛！真的有人潮，我們才來做這件事嘛！但是沒有的，為什麼可以送上這樣的一個案子？而且還通過了。"],["卓院長榮泰：在這個時間點我還不敢下這麼大的斷語，但是……"],["王委員育敏：那你要不要查？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個有必要讓我們的內政部去了解……"],["王委員育敏：院長，我問你，你要不要去澈查？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我會請內政部去完全充分了解。"],["王委員育敏：要調查吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：要，要查。"],["劉部長世芳：要查。"],["王委員育敏：要好好的調查吧！我再提供一個資訊給你參考，這一個殯儀館現在在興建當中，過去它其實在地方上有一些爭議，它是山坡地保育區變更為殯葬用地，而且它很巧妙的規避了1萬平方公尺需要環評的規定，就是9,987平方公尺，這當中當然還涉及了一個部分，就是過去這個企業其實曾經停業，然後又變成另外一家公司，而且過去在另外一家企業的時候，還有當時時任立委的子女在裡面擔任董事，這個在地方上面大家議論紛紛。我不知道這一件事情跟這一家殯儀館到底有沒有關係，但是我們再回放剛剛給大家看的那個圖，這個實景圖就是長這樣子，這個可能你們要好好去調查到底這當中有沒有什麼相關聯，因為真的路上就是沒有住家跟商圈，沒有行人跟車流，它就不是在都市計畫，它改善的路段為什麼是人行安全，我不懂，沒有人在行走的，為什麼是改善人行安全呢？我們真的就只有看到一家私人殯儀館還在興建當中，那這當中不曉得有沒有任何的關係，所以我今天利用總質詢，因為院長在，我也希望讓院長可以了解有這樣的情況，你有說過一塊錢都不應該浪費，我認為一塊錢也都不應該去圖利私人，如果有圖利的行為，這是絕對不允許的。以剛剛講的這些計畫當中，送來那麼多案子，有262案，只通過175案，我不知道這當中還有多少真正要改善人行道、行人安全的計畫被排除在外，結果你們通過了一件這種跟這個八竿子打不著的，這個道路拓寬計畫的案子夾雜在裡面，而且經費還高達1,500萬。對於這件案子，院長是不是承諾你真的會好好地去調查？你讓人民知道真相到底是什麼好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請內政部好好去了解這個事情，在了解之後馬上向委員說明。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望院長好好把事情的來龍去脈調查清楚，我們也不允許這樣的情況存在，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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發生了大火的事件大火的事件倉儲大火也不只是發生在桃園到2023年8月1號去年的時候這個林口的PC Home它一樣是倉儲的大火每一次這個火災的規模都很大救災的成本也非常高那證明了倉儲是火災的熱點是公害的溫床更是消防人員救災的巨大負擔院長跟部長應該不會反對這樣的說法這幾把大火應該我講了大概就有印象對不對是同意"},{"start":133.879,"end":148.806,"text":"同意對不對好這個院長可能會想說這個突然之間在這邊提兩年前發生的美孚大火為什麼要就案重提這我要跟院長講講故事院長你知不知道或部長知不知道美孚大火的公害影響多少人"},{"start":151.443,"end":172.939,"text":"對相當的多因為他燃燒的這個肉類他燃燒的時間非常的長他影響的人數數萬人甚至到十萬人之普因為那個臭味基本上北桃園的市民都聞到了部長曾經聞過火場的味道嗎我知道我有去過那個其實是蠻可怕的所以火災不只是消防人員的損傷而已他其實也是公害的來源"},{"start":174.929,"end":198.172,"text":"今天不只是這個救災的問題我要跟院長跟部長講的是有一小群人他們叫美孚大火公害自救會因為這場大火發生之後後來我們發現政府其實沒有什麼樣的法源依據去裁罰相關的廠商公害造成的損失到最後由市民自行承擔有一小群人看不過去只好抱團自救自己組了自救會"},{"start":199.153,"end":219.018,"text":"然後去跟美孚這個廠商打官司如果看來這叫做小蝦米對大鯨魚小市民站大財團他們希望透過市民站出來的力量一方面他們要為自己討一口公道討一點公道二方面更重要的是我曾經在擔任議員的時候我曾經進行協助的時候他們就拜託我們"},{"start":220.519,"end":241.133,"text":"希望透過他們站出來打官司的這個行為希望讓各級政府重視這樣子倉促的大火悲劇不能再重演那個時候我是桃園市的議員後來我跟順利他也在我們同一個選區在我們蘆竹南崁地區我現在是桃園第一選區的選區民意代表受人之托 忠人之勢"},{"start":242.034,"end":243.736,"text":"是的 這個身為民意代表"},{"start":259.377,"end":262.098,"text":"解決問題對不對所以這個方向目前這樣回答本期還算是非常滿意的我們希望喔"},{"start":278.582,"end":306.552,"text":"這樣子的大火悲劇不重演政府能夠重視並且進行制度上的調整今天是內政組的質詢所以我們馬上立法院也正在排審消防法所以我們還是回到救災的角度來討論這樣的事情回到防災救災的主軸請問院長部長要支援也可以我剛剛有講桃園的兩個大火一個是美孚一個是家樂福家樂福的大火救災的時間多久動員了多少資源兩位有概念嗎"},{"start":307.745,"end":311.526,"text":"好吧,誠實也是上冊,但我會希望有一個數字,我就把數字公布給兩位看就在時間40個小時20分鐘"},{"start":327.116,"end":327.897,"text":"那美孚呢?"},{"start":341.786,"end":369.674,"text":"要不要估一下這樣子的數字幾天吧我記得七天主要是悶燒悶燒對不對我告訴兩位不止七天啦美孚大火救災啦就實際上在壓制火勢的時間161個小時差不多是七天左右可是因為悶燒因為復燃因為他的倉儲的結構讓救災的難度提升啦所以這復燃悶燒變得大家束手無策後來出動了這個大鋼牙這些相關的機具啊"},{"start":370.094,"end":398.036,"text":"各式各樣的車次576輛次整個悶燒的時間21天超過500個小時一場火災動員的消防人力2163人次這數字應該滿驚人的吧 院長請問這個消防弟兄辛苦不辛苦非常辛苦我們應不應該從制度跟等等的角度去避免這樣的事情再次發生"},{"start":399.75,"end":403.219,"text":"如果從源頭能夠來避免這個事情就會減少他們的勤務量"},{"start":404.002,"end":431.437,"text":"好 那麼這兩場倉儲大火為什麼這麼的勞民傷財我們就直接講因為倉儲的火載量這我曾經在內政委員會質詢的時候消防組長答得非常快所謂的火載量就是單位面積可燃物完全燃燒的時候產生的熱能啦就它易不易燃它容不容易引起火災倉儲的易燃的火載量不只不低於工廠甚至高於工廠甚多有四倍五倍不止"},{"start":432.057,"end":458.472,"text":"所以剛剛開頭的時候我跟兩位在在在質詢的時候兩位第一個想到的火災想到的是桃園的進棚工業大火想到的是屏東的名陽大火這是工廠對不對但是倉儲的易燃的性質跟燃燒的強度其實是不低於這樣工廠的一個狀況那院長請問現在倉儲的部分存放物流倉庫冷鏈倉庫等等他們有沒有在消防裡面被正式的納管"},{"start":459.827,"end":488.395,"text":"我們曾經在院會裡面正式報告也討論過這一個事情所以我們也對於這個管制的方式有請內政部消防署能夠跟地方政府也要加強的合作配合來處理這個事情你這樣講說加強配合然後應該要做對我們都知道應該要做嘛剛剛我講了不管是基於為這個小市民來做代言或者是從救災人力的節省跟預防的角度來說我們這邊都有非常好的共識對不對就是我們應該要做這件事情但現在做了沒有"},{"start":489.056,"end":489.316,"text":"現在清不清楚"},{"start":503.652,"end":520.494,"text":"我可不可以補充一下跟委員報告一下就消防員救災的角度來看在那個工廠管理輔導法以及我們消防法裡面要注意的是有關他這個工廠在儲存這些物資的時候是否有確實申報尤其我們有關於這個危險物質的部分"},{"start":521.134,"end":538.882,"text":"這一點我們從消防署的角度上面已經有加強也就是說出去救災的消防人員他們出去救災的時候馬上就知道說他的工廠裡面到底儲放什麼樣的物質這是最重要的一點再來一點就是說第一個倉儲跟工廠的所在地或是公司的所在地有時候是距離比較遙遠"},{"start":539.762,"end":554.691,"text":"所以他的防火或者他的滅火措施被忽略掉那這一點我們會從工廠管理輔導法跟我們消防法一起來補足會跟縣市政府來努力來改善現在我們認為會發生比較大的火警甚至造成比較大的傷亡的部分做改善"},{"start":555.191,"end":576.839,"text":"回答得不錯但差了點勇氣其實我希望從院長裡面就直面問題就以現行的機制來講其實這個納管也好申報也好都還有若干的改進之處其實是不夠的包含我們現在的倉儲其實定位是不明確的我跟你講工廠很明確工廠有一套所謂剛剛部長也講了叫做工廠管理輔導法裡面有消防的設備配置等等一些配套措施但是倉儲"},{"start":578.159,"end":582.462,"text":"不過報告委員我們的消防署非常的認真就是說只要他有申報的話有任何火災的狀況站在我們的立場一定都會是遲緣的"},{"start":596.582,"end":617.303,"text":"當然是馳援我們現在講的是我心裡總是看到火災的時候我總是感念消防弟兄的付出甚至看到他們犧牲的時候我是非常傷痛的但是我們之所以去強調這個事情就是防災要重於救災我們如果前期的配套措施做得好前期的制度設計的是好的預防於前其實就是幫第一線要進去打火的弟兄減輕負擔可是現行的規制裡面倉儲"},{"start":620.686,"end":646.702,"text":"也好這個部分的工廠甚至在申報的部分他其實是不夠確實的我現在看到行政院提出的消防法的版本裡面這個本席當然就有提自己的版本原因是什麼呢因為在行政院消防法的兩個問題第一個倉儲依然是被一個定位不明確的角度針對工廠他當然做了若干的修正針對消防員的權益也做了若干的努力這些本席都看在眼裡"},{"start":647.242,"end":672.381,"text":"但是倉儲還是被漏掉啦那本期的選區發生這麼重要的事情桃園市政府也在院會裡面屢次提及這件事情的重要但我在消防行政院院版的消防法裡面並沒有看到相關條文的修正所以我今天一定要用總諮詢的時間來跟院長跟部長做釐清原因就在這個地方本期提出的意見來就教於這個兩位喔這個倉儲當然應該要納管本期的主張是"},{"start":673.677,"end":675.239,"text":"我為什麼要把一定規模以上的倉庫來做納入呢當然是因為先異後難嘛"},{"start":694.219,"end":709.611,"text":"規模大的它造成的影響災損等等的強度是比較高的那我甚至在裡面也有一定的授權條款就是說哪一些倉庫哪一些類型可以讓中央主管機關來擬定這樣子我們就可以針對不同型態的比如你放倉儲裡面存放的東西其實五花八門啊"},{"start":710.371,"end":725.116,"text":"他存的是易燃的油啊化學品啊這個紡織的棉布啊紙尿褲啊紙類品比如說林口PC Home的倉儲袋裡面都是衛生紙對不對那燒起來也是一發不可收拾那不能因為它是倉儲而不是工廠"},{"start":725.876,"end":744.684,"text":"然後就在這個地方被漏掉本席覺得這是非常奇怪的所以在我們的版本裡面就提要備制並且申報這我講什麼叫備制什麼叫申報也是第二個問題就是我們在行政院目前消防法的版本裡面我們只看到了備制備制的意思就是我這個工廠的負責人我只要準備好說我裡面有些什麼就好"},{"start":745.267,"end":768.289,"text":"但是我的準備不見得要讓政府知道阿我的備制萬一放在工廠的抽屜裡面大火燒起來他就在火場裡面的時候那備制變成這個流於表面我是覺得滿可惜的所以本席在這邊是主張阿不只是要備制也應該要申報對不對你要讓內政部讓消防弟兄非常清楚的了解可能發生火警的地方他的狀態是什麼"},{"start":769.079,"end":769.94,"text":"委員長我現在講到這邊大家同意嗎"},{"start":799.059,"end":801.803,"text":"公共安全及職業安全衛生的危害僅以場所管制"},{"start":815.982,"end":838.475,"text":"期望業者主動申報顯緣木求魚這就是我想法條有若干缺失可以改善的地方因為你只是期待他申報他不申報的時候到時候消防員就殉職了我們非常非常不希望看到這樣子的悲劇繼續重演這個沒有預防於前造成的後果我想是難以承載的輕叫做經濟損失"},{"start":839.956,"end":864.566,"text":"中呢叫做公害平傳重的話他會出人命犧牲消防弟兄所以我希望在消防法修法的過程之中行政院可以更開放的態度接納不同的意見我剛剛聽總質詢這樣一路談下來其實我們的溝通是非常順暢的這個部長跟院長也用非常開放的心態接受了倉儲納管這樣子的一個概念這樣的概念我們在修法的時候我們可以一樣用這樣子的心態來討論嗎"},{"start":865.866,"end":890.4,"text":"也謝謝委員希望能夠支持消防法趕快刪讀通過我們當然支持啊前面有一段沒有修就是因為我們這很重要的版本還沒有進來進來之後我想我今天講院長我這樣目前為止講都還算很講道理謝謝委員的提醒如果現行送來的修法過程文字當中還不夠周圓我們共同來努力用最高標準的安全部長剛剛有提到雙軌併星所以消防法要修公服法也要修納進倉儲"},{"start":894.158,"end":897.321,"text":"納進倉儲這是確定是我們行政院接下來推動的方向嗎對 是"},{"start":898.584,"end":922.973,"text":"內政部已經在做了院長你講的話很重要因為我剛剛講這是一個跨部的問題部法就牽涉經濟部那請問有沒有相關的一些時程的安排消防法已經排了嘛對不對公服法什麼時候會有進度院長院長回來公服法不是內政部的工廠管理輔導法在經濟部我們趕快協調經濟部可以排進去什麼時候會有一個明確的時程因為是經濟部主管我們盡快來請院長我會來請經濟部盡快排定好會後趕快回覆時間跟委員報告"},{"start":932.662,"end":934.09,"text":"好,謝謝牛委員,也謝謝卓院長"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:20:51 - 10:36:28","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155247","gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時20分）謝謝主席。行政院長、內政部長有請。"],["主席：請院長還有內政部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長早安，我們就直接進入主題，今天時間比較短、15分鐘而已。我想請問一下，您會親自主持行政院大部分的院會，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院會……"],["牛委員煦庭：行政院院會嘛，你會主持，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：每周四都會主持。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個會找各地的縣市政府一起開會，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：六都的首長都會來列席。"],["牛委員煦庭：六都首長有時候會來列席參與，對不對？桃園市政府其實很常在行政院院會的時候提到，針對倉儲跟危險物品的納管、談消防的議題，請問院長知不知道這背後的原因跟故事是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：之前有發生過大火的事件。"],["牛委員煦庭：之前有發生大火的事件嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：大家認為很需要就管制品做一個有效的安全維護。"],["牛委員煦庭：哪幾場大火，院長有印象嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：敬鵬。"],["牛委員煦庭：敬鵬是工廠，還有呢？"],["劉部長世芳：明揚，屏東的。"],["牛委員煦庭：屏東的是明揚，也是工廠。"],["卓院長榮泰：另外是在南部。"],["牛委員煦庭：有一點概念，但是沒有回答問題。我公布答案，是2022年3月10號的美福倉儲大火，這一把大火是桃園人心中永遠的痛！因為它帶來的公害跟後面的損失是不計其數的，不只是美福的大火，4天過後的2022年3月14號，在楊梅的家樂福同樣也是倉儲發生了大火事件；倉儲大火也不只是發生在桃園，到了2023年8月1號、去年的時候，林口的PChome一樣是倉儲的大火。每一次火災的規模都很大，救災的成本也非常高，證明了倉儲是火災的熱點、是公害的溫床、更是消防人員救災的巨大負擔，院長跟部長應該不會反對這樣的說法吧？這幾把大火我講了大家應該就有印象了，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：同意，對不對？好。院長可能會想說，突然之間在這邊提兩年前發生的美福大火，為什麼要舊案重提？這我要跟院長講講故事，院長，你知不知道或部長知不知道美福大火的公害一共影響了多少人？"],["劉部長世芳：相當地多，因為它燃燒肉類……"],["牛委員煦庭：它燃燒的時間非常地長，影響的人數數萬人，甚至到十萬人之普，因為那個臭味基本上北桃園的市民都聞到了！部長跟院長曾經聞過火場的味道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我知道、我有去過。"],["牛委員煦庭：那個其實是滿可怕！所以火災不只是消防人員的損傷而已，它其實也是公害的來源。今天不只是救災的問題，我要跟院長、部長講的是，有一小群人叫美福大火公害自救會，因為這場大火發生之後，後來我們發現政府其實沒有什麼樣的法源依據去裁罰相關的廠商，公害造成的損失到最後由市民自行承擔，有一小群人看不過去只好抱團自救，自己組了自救會去跟美福這個廠商打官司，依我看這叫做小蝦米對大鯨魚、小市民戰大財團！他們希望透過市民站出來的力量，一方面他們要為自己討一點公道，二方面更重要的是，曾經在我擔任議員進行協助的時候他們就拜託我們，希望透過他們站出來打官司的這個行為，讓各級政府重視這樣子的倉儲大火悲劇不能再重演！那個時候我是桃園市的議員，後來我順利……它也在我們同一個選區，在我們蘆竹、南崁地區，我現在是桃園第一選區的選區民意代表，受人之託，忠人之事，悲劇不重演是我和我選區鄉親跟自救會共同的目標！現在我要請問院長、請問部長，這應不應該也是我跟行政院行政團隊共同的目標，讓倉儲大火的悲劇不重演？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，身為民意代表，一則是為小市民做代言人，一則是監督行政機關，市民有任何需要，您出來代言，對的，行政機關有任何做得不夠的，你提出檢討，我們來做，這也是對的，共同面對解決人民的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：解決問題，對不對？所以這個方向目前這樣回答本席還算是非常滿意的，我們希望這樣子的大火悲劇不重演，政府能夠重視並且進行制度上的調整。今天是內政組的質詢，立法院也正在排審消防法，所以我們還是回到救災的角度來討論這樣的事情。","回到防災、救災的主軸，請問院長，部長要支援也可以，我剛剛有講到桃園的兩個大火，一個是美福，一個是家樂福，關於家樂福的大火，救災的時間多久、動員了多少資源，兩位有概念嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉，我不清楚，我知道非常多，但是您非常關心有關消防人員或者是附近居民的安全，我們也都非常地清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：好吧！誠實也是上策，但我會希望有一個數字。我就把數字公布給兩位看，救災時間40個小時20分鐘，接近2天的時間，動員的數量消防車47輛、消防人員259人次，這聽起來就已經夠累了、夠勞民傷財了，對不對？那美福呢？要不要估一下這樣子的數字？"],["卓院長榮泰：我記得幾天吧？"],["牛委員煦庭：7天？"],["劉部長世芳：主要是悶燒。"],["牛委員煦庭：悶燒，對不對？我告訴兩位不只7天，美福大火救災，就是實際上在壓制火勢的時間是161個小時，差不多是7天左右，可是因為悶燒、因為復燃、因為倉儲的結構讓救災的難度提升，所以這個復燃、悶燒使得大家束手無策，後來出動了大鋼牙這些相關的機具，各式各樣的車次576輛次，整個悶燒的時間21天，超過500個小時，一場火災動員的消防人力2,163人次，這數字應該滿驚人的吧！院長，請問消防弟兄辛不辛苦？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常辛苦、非常危險。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們應不應該從制度等等一些角度，去避免這樣的事情再次發生？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果從源頭能夠來避免這個事情，這會減少他們的勤務量。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那麼這兩場倉儲大火為什麼這麼地勞民傷財，我們就直接講是因為倉儲的火載量，這我曾經在內政委員會質詢的時候，消防署長答得非常快，所謂的火載量就是單位面積可燃物完全燃燒時候產生的熱能，就是它易不易燃、容不容易引起火災。倉儲易燃的火載量不只不低於工廠，甚至高於工廠甚多，有的四倍、五倍不只，所以剛剛開頭我跟兩位在質詢的時候，兩位想到的第一個火災是桃園的敬鵬工業大火，想到的是屏東的明揚大火，這是工廠，對不對？但是倉儲易燃的性質跟燃燒的強度，其實是不低於工廠的狀況。請問院長現在倉儲的部分，其存放、物流倉庫、冷鏈倉庫等等，他們在消防裡面有沒有被正式地納管？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們曾經在院會裡面正式報告也討論過這件事情，所以我們對於這個管制的方式，也有請內政部消防署能夠跟地方政府要加強合作配合來處理這件事情。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講說要加強配合，然後應該要做，對，我們都知道應該要做，剛剛我已經講了，不管是基於為小市民來做代言，或者是從救災人力的節省跟預防的角度來說，我們這邊都有非常好的共識，對不對？就是我們應該要做這件事情，但現在做了沒有？我們先面對問題嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，危險物品放在哪裡，這個圖資的資料一定要非常地清楚，才不會讓消防員進到一個不知名的危險狀態裡面去。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在清不清楚？"],["卓院長榮泰：他應該……"],["劉部長世芳：我可不可以補充一下？"],["牛委員煦庭：可以。"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告一下，就消防員救災的角度來看，在工廠管理輔導法以及消防法裡面要注意的是有關工廠在儲存這些物資的時候是否有確實申報，尤其是關於危險物質的部分，關於這一點，我們從消防署的角度上面已經有加強，也就是說，出去救災的消防人員去救災的時候，馬上就能知道工廠裡面到底儲放什麼樣的物質，這是最重要的一點。","再來，第一個，倉儲跟工廠的所在地或是公司的所在地，有時候距離比較遙遠。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：所以它的防火或者是滅火措施被忽略掉，這一點我們會從工廠管理輔導法跟消防法一起來補足，會跟縣市政府來努力改善現在我們認為會發生比較大的火警，甚至造成比較大的傷亡部分做改善。"],["牛委員煦庭：回答得不錯，但差了一點勇氣，其實我希望院長就直面問題，就以現行的機制來講，不論納管也好、申報也好，都還有若干的改進之處，其實是不夠的，包含我們現在的倉儲，其實定位是不明確的。我跟你講，工廠很明確，剛剛部長也講了，工廠有一套所謂的工廠管理輔導法，裡面消防的設備、配置等等一些配套措施……"],["劉部長世芳：倉儲要納進去。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是倉儲有在工廠管理輔導法裡面嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：希望能夠納進去。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實是沒有的，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那麼以目前消防法的規範，也沒有任何的條文去提到倉儲的部分應該要怎麼處理。"],["劉部長世芳：不過，報告委員，消防署非常地認真，就是只要它有申報的話，有任何火災的狀況，站在我們的立場，一定都會是馳援的。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然是馳援嘛！我們現在講的是，我看到火災的時候，我總是感念消防弟兄的付出，甚至看到他們犧牲的時候，我是非常非常傷痛的。但是我們之所以去強調這個事情就是防災要重於救災，如果前期的配套措施做得好，前期的制度設計是好的，預防於前，其實就是幫第一線要進去打火的弟兄減輕負擔，對不對？可是現行的規制裡面，倉儲也好，部分工廠甚至在申報的部分，它其實是不夠確實的。","我現在看到行政院提出的消防法版本裡面，本席當然就有提自己的版本，原因是什麼呢？因為在行政院的消防法有兩個問題，第一個，倉儲依然是被定位為一個不明確的角度，針對工廠，它當然做了若干的修正；針對消防員的權益，也做了若干的努力，這些本席都看在眼裡，但是倉儲還是被漏掉啦！本席的選區發生了這麼重要的事情，桃園市政府也在院會裡面屢次提及這件事情的重要，但我在行政院院版的消防法裡面並沒有看到相關條文的修正，所以我今天一定要用總質詢的時間來跟院長與部長做釐清，原因就在這個地方。","本席提出意見來就教於兩位，倉儲當然應該要納管，本席的主張是，版本裡面的第二十一條之一就有明確提到，不只是工廠和存放化學物品的地方，一定規模以上的倉庫，平時就應該要備置，並且申報儲存物品的數量、種類及搶救必要的資訊。我為什麼要把一定規模以上的倉庫來做納入呢？當然是因為先易後難嘛！規模大的，它造成的影響、災損等等的強度是比較高的，我甚至在裡面也有一定的授權條款，也就是哪一些的倉庫、哪一些的類型可以讓中央主管機關來擬定，這樣子我們就可以針對不同型態的，比如倉儲裡面存放的東西其實五花八門，它存的是易燃的油、化學品、紡織的棉布、紙尿褲、紙類品，比如林口PChome的倉儲裡面都是衛生紙，對不對？那燒起來也是一發不可收拾。不能因為它是倉儲而不是工廠，然後就在這個地方被漏掉，本席覺得這是非常奇怪的，所以在我們的版本裡面就提要備置並且申報。","我講什麼叫備置、什麼叫申報，也是第二個問題，就是我們在行政院目前消防法的版本裡面，只看到了備置，備置的意思就是這個工廠的負責人，他只要準備好裡面有些什麼就好，但是他的準備不見得要讓政府知道啊！他的備置萬一放在工廠的抽屜裡面，大火燒起來，它就在火場裡面的時候，則備置變成流於表面，我是覺得蠻可惜的。所以本席在這邊主張，不只是要備置，也應該要申報，對不對？你要讓內政部、讓消防弟兄非常清楚地了解可能發生火警地方的狀態是什麼，這樣才會加強防災的效果。院長、部長，我現在講到這邊，大家同意嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您的觀點非常正確，但是我希望它能夠雙軌進行，也就是工廠管理輔導法才能確切管到工廠的負責人；在消防法裡面，是要保障消防人員的安全。如果可以雙軌進行的話，不管未來有大面積或者是多重的、有可能的易燃物質的話，必須要做申報，這樣子才有可能真正管理到倉儲的安全。"],["牛委員煦庭：我也提醒一下兩位，監察院在113年就針對明揚大火的糾正裡面也有講，環境部、經濟部、內政部、勞動部無視明揚對公共安全及職業安全衛生的危害，僅以場所管制，並期望業者主動申報，顯緣木求魚。這就是我認為法條有若干缺失可以改善的地方，因為你只是期待它申報，它不申報的時候，到時候消防員就殉職了，我們非常、非常不希望看到像這樣子的悲劇繼續重演。沒有預防於前，造成的後果我想是難以承載的，輕叫做經濟損失，中叫做公害頻傳，重的話會出人命、犧牲消防弟兄，所以我希望在消防法修法的過程之中，行政院可以更開放的態度接納不同的意見。我剛剛聽總質詢這樣一路談下來，其實我們的溝通是非常順暢的，部長跟院長也用非常開放的心態，接受了倉儲納管這樣子的一個概念，我們在修法的時候可以一樣用這樣子的心態來討論嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：也謝謝委員，希望能夠支持消防法趕快三讀通過，我們能有更多的保障。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們當然支持，前面有一段還沒有修，就是因為我們這很重要的版本還沒有進來。"],["劉部長世芳：因為等國民黨的黨團……"],["牛委員煦庭：等進來之後……院長，我想我今天目前為止講的都還算講道理嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒，如果現行送來的法，修法過程中文字還不夠周延，我們共同來努力，採最高標準的安全。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長剛剛有提到雙軌並行，所以消防法要修，工輔法也要修？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，納進倉儲。"],["牛委員煦庭：納進倉儲，這個確定是行政院接下來推動的方向嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：對，是。"],["卓院長榮泰：內政部已經在做了。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長，你講的話很重要，因為我剛剛講這是一個跨部會的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛詢問部長，他已經在做，我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：這部法牽涉到經濟部，請問有沒有相關的一些時程安排？消防法已經排了，對不對？工輔法什麼時候會有進度？請院長回，工輔法又不是內政部的。"],["卓院長榮泰：儘快排定。"],["劉部長世芳：工廠管理輔導法在經濟部，我們會趕快協調經濟部可以排進去。"],["牛委員煦庭：什麼時候會有一個明確的時程？"],["劉部長世芳：因為是經濟部主管，我們儘快來協調。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我才要問院長嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請經濟部儘快排定。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，會後趕快回復，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：直接跟委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員也謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時36分）","繼續開會（10時47分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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監裁要彈劾你啊如果基金他已經不過用了那我想我們會請求會拜託主席總書是不是再給他再挹注進來讓這個基金能夠繼續的維持我希望依法行政"},{"start":394.383,"end":419.853,"text":"我希望尊重我們立法院三讀通過這樣的議題行政院應該要尊重我們在過去裡面民進黨他們所提案的三讀通過的不就是依法行政不是通過了預算來追加甚至在這個預算法第79條可以追加預算就是依法行政就好了嘛"},{"start":420.997,"end":428.684,"text":"報告委員您所提的就是一個整個預算的程序無論是年度預算或是追加預算您所提剛剛所談的都是一個程序的問題我所在意的也是程序的問題"},{"start":448.78,"end":477.468,"text":"未來競發補償怎麼處理我現在心中沒有定案但是如果都能夠循預算程序來處理都可以談因此報告委員從2000年以後我們成立了多少對原住民朋友生活融在一起的各種政策跟部會當然希望加強所以這件事情是黨派的問題你這個說詞我希望你加強"},{"start":479.029,"end":505.465,"text":"這件問題不是黨派的問題是原則性的問題如果明年增加到更多那行政院也要再照編嗎不會吧所以今年也應該循序這種方式來協調才對我很願意跟大家談現在很多國人都誤會退回預算不是在黨預算好不好 麻煩你重視我們每一個委員所提出來的不是討伐"},{"start":506.297,"end":527.756,"text":"是講道理我們今天講道理我們今天區區的一個14億但是對原住民的來講他是一個很大很大的一個福利政策因為這就是一個補償他們的缺失那這個不就是一個照顧國人的角色你穿著這個衣服不就是"},{"start":529.116,"end":535.217,"text":"對我們原住民是肯定榮耀的既然沒有被接受原住民一直在責怪我們行政院為什麼不尊重"},{"start":551.661,"end":552.422,"text":"另外就是在過去蔡英文承諾"},{"start":577.845,"end":603.625,"text":"在原住民的自治法原住民的土地法及海域法原住民的語言及發展原住民的語言發展法2017年公布原住民的自治及原住民的土地及海域尚未送到立法院但是我已經在本院本席已經在第1個會期已經提送我也希望"},{"start":604.258,"end":632.036,"text":"行政院裡面有自己的版本土地法跟海域法那另外我現在講的是內政部長我們講的是國土計劃法現在全國紛紛擾擾而且在對你們國土計劃法的不諒解很多縣市為什麼不送審到我們立法院給內政部原因在哪裡在送審的話我們土地法就判死了"},{"start":632.876,"end":659.891,"text":"看是什麼把所有的地方的農地變為國有國一國二國三農一農二農三的限制因地制宜沒有在想你們只是希望你們在執行這個任務要完成可是有沒有想到各縣市裡面在都市發展的前提之下都沒有真正的考量因地制宜的角色第一個我想問你"},{"start":663.115,"end":682.914,"text":"國土計劃法對原住民的土地產生了什麼樣的影響以下有6個問題要就教院長包含內政部長包含人民會主委第一個原住民傳統領域及傳統海域問題如何解決第二國土計劃法及原住民的傳統領域劃分"},{"start":685.475,"end":709.196,"text":"的問題如何解決．第3國土功能分析．劃設後原住民土地還能調整嗎．第4國土計劃法通過後．原住民的土地是否．無法自治．第5國土功能分析．分裂．可以蓋原住民傳統文化建築．可以嗎．第6"},{"start":710.377,"end":729.31,"text":"國土計劃會影響既有照領補助以禁法補償的資格請問你有沒有想到這6點你一下跳躍了我們延期法延期法憲法保障也就是你們民進黨總統陳水扁當時認同我們原住民的延期法"},{"start":729.89,"end":745.386,"text":"所以才有今天我們保障我們原住民的土地包含傳統領域但是你現在用國土計畫跳過了我們原住民的土地法還有海域法請問你有什麼樣對我們全國國人交代請說明"},{"start":747.583,"end":763.035,"text":"國土計畫法我跟委員報告其實這個法對原住民是有利的為什麼講呢因為你國土計畫法通過之後有一些原住民的土地管理規則會讓我們的土地等一下我請部長內政部長先回答我這個問題"},{"start":764.736,"end":782.29,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想我的想法跟原民會主委非常的相像我們的國土計劃法如果能夠順利通過的話對於原住民現在的土地保障反而會更多元以現在原住民的朋友們最關心的就是說在原住民的聚落保留地裡面"},{"start":782.79,"end":783.551,"text":"我希望我希望完成的"},{"start":801.085,"end":802.907,"text":"保障原住民的土地法"},{"start":816.116,"end":817.799,"text":"土地法現在紛紛擾擾全國現在所有的鄉親對這個土地法的不滿為什麼"},{"start":833.015,"end":862.57,"text":"因為你們沒有周遣的考量所以你不要因為你們要去執法執行然後罔顧民意這一些要多聽聽各縣市的聲音當初在選舉的時候你們已經 原民會內政部已經在廣外的來宣達說我們要在土地法裡面要趕快上路但是這幾個月來你看看"},{"start":863.541,"end":877.483,"text":"你看看全國的鄉親對政府的隱憂你們到底有沒有聽聽老百姓的聲音希望國土計劃法延後而且"},{"start":878.226,"end":895.142,"text":"我們認同我們已經有提案希望展延6年把所有的土地法而且要因地制宜考量他們的生計跟土地的開發包含地方的發展還有產業你們都要考量可不可以"},{"start":896.245,"end":917.455,"text":"報告委員 如果要展延6年的話 現在會延緩現在原住民的土地使用管制規則以及上面原住民建物合法化的部分因為如果每個縣市地方政府就把工農分支法但是以大體來講的話 應該要展延6年嘛所以針對原住民的話 你們行密限制嘛 沒有叫你中斷啊"},{"start":919.176,"end":940.338,"text":"沒有叫你中斷,原住民本來是要保障的,但是其他的議題你們要真正考量地方的發展我們一定保障原住民的部分好,謝謝黃委員,謝謝卓院長下一位請紐許廷委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:05:03 - 10:20:45","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155246","gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（10時5分）有請卓院長，還有原民會主委，待會內政部部長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢，原民會。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：院長好，我們先看一下這3張影片，這是我們蔡英文、包含賴清德總統，還有我們卓院長，你們著裝了這個衣服，就表示你認同我們在臺灣，原住民是一家人，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我上次好像跟委員說過……"],["黃委員仁：你看你著裝的衣服有多帥？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說原住民朋友曾經是臺灣這塊土地上唯一的主人，現在我們所有的人民都是臺灣這個國家共同的主人。"],["黃委員仁：院長，你看一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["黃委員仁：原住民的榮耀，對不對？你認同嘛！那既然認同，我們區區的一個預算，而且不是違法通過，是經過了72位跨黨派，而且是三讀通過，是憲法保障，既然這樣的話，行政院也應該尊重我們區區的一個禁伐補償的預算。當然，你們現在又認為要補充，或者是原民會要從原住民的綜合發展基金挪用，如果挪用的話，我們原住民的發展基金已經破產，沒有任何錢再提供給我們全國國人包含福利的這些基金、包含貸款基金，以上各項福利的基金已經沒有錢，對我們原住民的國人怎麼交代？所以現在三兆兩千多億的預算，我們只有區區的14億。你們著裝了這個衣服，也彰顯了對世界、對國際認同我們臺灣的原住民就是主人，既然這樣的話，我們待會要討論的是福利、政策、教育、土地，那禁伐補償是國人最關心，我們當然也感謝過去的立法委員、包含現任的立法委員的努力，當然我也要對我們國人要交代，為什麼？因為現在很多國人，包含原住民在誤解、誤會我們在擋總預算，不是，是退回總預算重新檢討，再把我們的預算是不是可以編列出來，因為原住民的事務裡面不是那麼繁雜，只是追求了一個對原住民的尊重。今天我們禁伐補償，既然你們禁止開伐，不如也給他們一個鼓勵，所以這個就是你要對國人原住民的角度的重視，你著裝了這個衣服，表示你絕對對我們原住民感到榮耀，院長，你認為呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員對原住民朋友的關心，我們當然非常清楚，我當然比不上你，但是我們會透過各種的機會去了解原住民朋友的文化、需求、生活，我們希望大家融為一體，這絕對也請委員不用懷疑……"],["黃委員仁：開國以來到現在，我們不是一個使用品了，也不是試用品……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是。"],["黃委員仁：我們是一個核心的價值，原住民在臺灣這一塊土地，我們站起來，在歷史角度，我們絕對跟國際來發聲，因為我們是真正的臺灣主人，可是我們國家有沒有真正站在原住民的角度，一旦總統選舉，穿著原住民的衣服，說自己是原住民的孩子，但是選舉之後呢？背後裡面沒有真正地給予原住民的尊重。主委，你來說明對於禁伐補償怎麼樣從哪幾個地方重新檢討，還是重新編列？或者是你要從原住民的發展基金挪用，這樣的話，原住民全部會討伐你，你來說明。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，歷年原民會成立以來，今年的預算是最多的一次，我們還編了28.16億要發禁伐補償。"],["黃委員仁：你不要跟我講這個，因為現在的物價指數已經上漲，你不提高，你還認為這個預算要減少嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：所以我們也……"],["黃委員仁：現在我要問的是禁伐補償你要怎麼處理？"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果說禁伐補償，我們已經增加了七點多億，總共28.16億，那還不夠補、還不夠給的，就是如果是1公頃是6萬還不夠給的話，當然我們就按歷年的往例，循例由基金來補充。"],["黃委員仁：基金裡面是不能挪用的嘛！這是違法的嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：以前都是這樣在用。"],["黃委員仁：以前雖然都在挪用，112年已經挪用到多少？67億，你再挪用14億補貼禁伐補償的時候，已經是破產，而且是違法，到時候監察院要彈劾你。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，如果基金已經不夠用了，我們會請求、拜託主計總處是不是再挹注進來，讓這個基金能夠繼續維持。"],["黃委員仁：我希望依法行政。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員仁：我希望尊重立法院三讀通過，這樣的議題行政院應該要尊重。過去民進黨他們所提案三讀通過的不就是依法行政，不是通過了預算來追加，甚至在預算法第七十九條可以追加預算，就是依法行政就好了嘛！因為沒有違法，也不會減少三兆兩千多億的預算，只是用在這個預算裡面，應該尊重立法院的三讀通過，這才是真正尊重原住民，我們並沒有違法。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，你所提的就是整個預算的程序，無論是年度預算或是追加預算，你剛剛所談的都是一個程序的問題，我所在意的也是程序問題。未來禁伐補償怎麼處理，我現在心中沒有定案……"],["黃委員仁：院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是如果都能夠循預算程序來處理，都可以談。"],["黃委員仁：你所說程序的問題，請問三讀通過有72位跨黨派來通過同意的，這不就是程序嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，從2000年以後，我們成立了多少對原住民朋友生活融在一起的各種政策，跟部會、跟首長一起做……"],["黃委員仁：我當然希望加強……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這件事情不是黨派的問題。"],["黃委員仁：你這個說詞，我希望你加強，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：這件事情不是黨派的問題，是原則性的問題，如果明年增加到更多，那行政院也要再照編嗎？不會吧？所以今年也應該循序這種方式來協調才對，我很願意跟大家談。"],["黃委員仁：現在很多國人都誤會退回預算，不是在擋預算，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，現在是在程序委員會。"],["黃委員仁：麻煩你重視我們每一個委員所提出來的，不是討伐，是講道理。"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是。"],["黃委員仁：我們今天講道理，今天區區的14億，但是對原住民來講，是一個很大、很大的福利政策，因為這就是補償他們的缺失，這個不就是一個照顧國人的角色，你穿著這個衣服不就是對我們原住民是肯定、榮耀的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我很願意，所以在協商過程中，我們提出行政院主張調整到4萬，從3萬到4萬已經調整了33%，但這個提議沒有被接受，這個建議沒有被接受。"],["黃委員仁：既然沒有被接受……"],["卓院長榮泰：但我們用現在的方式，只是說不希望用這種方式……"],["黃委員仁：原住民一直在責怪行政院為什麼不尊重，這就是你們要檢討的地方，所以我相信你們絕對有更高的智慧來解決這個問題，不要在這個地方打繞，我們也還要往前行，有很多預算我們希望都要配合的……"],["卓院長榮泰：也請委員相信……"],["黃委員仁：但是也希望你們也尊重我們原住民的議題，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員相信我們跟我正在努力當中。"],["黃委員仁：好。另外就是過去蔡英文承諾在原住民自治法、原住民土地法及海域法、原住民語言發展法，2017年公布原住民族自治法及原住民族土地及海域法，尚未送到立法院，但是本席已經在第一個會期提送，我也希望原住民族土地及海域法，行政院你們有自己的版本。","另外，內政部長，我們講的是國土計畫法現在全國紛紛擾擾，而且對你們的國土計畫法不諒解。很多縣市為什麼不送審給內政部，原因在哪裡？送審的話，我們土地法就判死了，判死什麼？把所有地方的農地變為國有，國一、國二、國三，農一、農二、農三，而有所限制，沒有因地制宜，你們只是在執行這個任務，要完成它，可是有沒有想到各縣市裡面，在都市發展的前提之下，都沒有真正地考量到因地制宜。","第一個，我想問你，國土計畫法對原住民的土地產生了什麼樣的影響？以下有六個問題要就教院長，包含內政部長、包含原民會主委，第一個，原住民傳統領域及傳統海域問題如何解決？第二，國土計畫法及原住民傳統領域劃分的問題如何解決？第三，國土功能分區劃設後，原住民的土地還能調整嗎？第四，國土計畫法通過後，原住民的土地是否無法自治？第五，國土功能分區分類可以蓋原住民傳統文化建築嗎？第六，國土計畫會影響既有造林補助與禁伐補償的資格，請問你有沒有想到這六點？你一下跳過了我們的原基法，原基法憲法保障，你們民進黨總統陳水扁當時認同我們原住民的原基法，所以才有今天保障我們原住民的土地、包含傳統領域，但是你現在用國土計畫跳過了我們原住民的土地法還有海域法，請問你怎麼樣對我們全國國人交代？請說明。"],["曾主任委員智勇：國土計畫法，我跟委員報告，其實這個法對原住民是有利的，為什麼這樣講？因為國土計畫法通過之後，有一些原住民的土地管理規則會讓我們的土地……"],["黃委員仁：等一下，我請內政部長先回答我這個問題。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的指教，我想我的想法跟原民會主委非常地相像，我們的國土計畫法如果能夠順利通過，對於原住民現在的土地保障反而會更多元。現在原住民的朋友們最關心的就是在原住民的聚落保留地裡面房子的合法化問題，我想黃委員非常地清楚，現在全臺灣大概有14萬棟，我們在今天要跟原住民委員會共同召開一個原住民族土地使用管制規則的定案，希望能夠把……"],["黃委員仁：我希望要完整地保障原住民的土地法。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們非常地清楚……"],["黃委員仁：但是我希望你們也提出行政院版，第一個，針對原住民的土地法、包含海域法及傳統領域的保障，以上這都是要提出報告給我，主委，也麻煩你提供報告給我，還有內政部長也請給我一份。","另外就是國土計畫法現在紛紛擾擾，全國現在所有的鄉親對這個國土計畫法不滿，為什麼？因為你們沒有周全的考量，所以不要因為你們要去執法、執行，然後罔顧民意，要多聽聽各縣市的聲音，當初在選舉的時候，原民會、內政部已經在廣泛地宣達說國土計畫法要趕快上路，但是這幾個月來，你看看全國的鄉親對政府的隱憂，你們到底有沒有聽聽老百姓的聲音，希望國土計畫法延後？而且我們認同且已經有提案，希望展延六年，把所有的……而且要因地制宜、考量他們的生計跟土地的開發，包含地方的發展還有產業你們都要考量，可不可以？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，如果要展延六年的話，會延緩現在原住民的土地使用管制規則以及上面原住民建物合法化的部分，因為如果每個縣市、地方政府有把功能分區法……"],["黃委員仁：你們可以循序漸進嘛！但是以大體來講的話，應該要展延六年嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：但是在原住民……"],["黃委員仁：針對原住民的話，你們循序漸進嘛，沒有叫你中斷啊，原住民本來就要保障的嘛，但是其他的議題你們真正要考量地方的發展。"],["劉部長世芳：我們一定保障原住民的部分。"],["黃委員仁：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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送到大會去 不知道可不可以"},{"start":172.787,"end":190.041,"text":"委員過去的努力我確實不是正常的但我知道現在9月26號內政部正在召開都委會的專案小組請部長來說明今天為什麼我們會在這邊提因為拖太久了所以每一次專案小組都在前行提要"},{"start":192.645,"end":201.581,"text":"我先說明一下我的一些問題每一次專案小組都在前進提要都在講說之前發生這個案子是怎樣怎樣怎樣為什麼 因為是在拖太久"},{"start":202.509,"end":220.406,"text":"所以這個又浪費了非常多的時間然後每一次專案小組跟專案小組中間又隔非常久你看上一次是5月7號後來就排了9月26號5月7號之前又更是新北市政府是半年前就提報內政部半年之後才安排專案小組這其實都是浪費時間"},{"start":221.627,"end":241.509,"text":"然後再來就是一次專小組所提出來的結論我看到也是覺得非常的 我不太能接受因為他說叫新北市政府再提供有一些路段他排圍區段徵收的原則到底是什麼然後他說叫新北市政府去調查那個福州當地的現況以及違章工廠使用情形"},{"start":242.109,"end":270.367,"text":"這些東西這些資料早就有了結果你隔了這麼久開的專案小組還叫人家在做早就做的事情這就把這個都市計畫的審議變成一種作文比賽感覺好像就沒有很想要這個都市計畫通過所以我就是在這邊請院長關心請部長關心我還沒講完請院長關心請部長關心這個拖很久是我們地方的期待趕快設定一個階段性的目標我們希望明年中的時候把它送出大會"},{"start":271.027,"end":271.147,"text":"主席"},{"start":288.407,"end":288.787,"text":"院長可以嗎可以嗎 院長"},{"start":318.649,"end":321.194,"text":"我們是有階段性的目標在往前推動沒有錯啊盡量啦好不好"},{"start":326.82,"end":352.959,"text":"你現在就唸資料而已啊你也沒有了解我們這案子啊你也沒去開會啊但是你有剛有提到污水下水道的部分啊我也要跟你講污水下水道是因為要經過區段徵收因為污水下水道要經過一些公有土地嘛那邊就卡住了嘛經過區段徵收重劃之後就可以興建金北市政府在10月1號的時候已經提送了這個設計報告因為我還有其他議題你在那邊唸資料就等於有點浪費我的時間沒有我已經跟你講我們10月1號的實際進度"},{"start":353.439,"end":382.365,"text":"我們可以請內政部把這個開會的時間把它弄得緊密一點然後希望在那個更換專業小組的學者專家之前可以趕快送大會否則要一直 要解決爭議不然就是要一直一直要前傾提要一直要告訴新的委員說這個發生什麼事情希望新北市政府不要一案一案解決這個是都市計畫的案子你也要插話這不是政治議題你是奇怪性插話喔對不起對不起不是部長你真的很奇怪欸我在講都市計畫你也要插話"},{"start":383.485,"end":383.665,"text":"請你下去"},{"start":412.09,"end":435.54,"text":"好謝謝院長接下來我想跟請教一下剛剛文房部發布了一個非常重要的一個話題就是10月10號的時候中共要射火箭這個事情你知道嗎他現在已經發布公布已經發布了這個很長一段階段他都在台灣的不是啦我問你剛剛的事情啦剛剛發布了啦說已經要射火箭要經過會通過台灣"},{"start":438.69,"end":465.541,"text":"這可能是不是之前講的國安單位掌握的聯合利劍B當時就已經說了可能會發射中程導彈沒有錯我希望他的演習是針對他自己所瑕有效範圍內做他自己軍事的演練對這種防害到區域安全印太地區安全跟穩定的動作希望中國能夠有所節制你在這邊呼籲他節制他就會節制嗎不會所以你的因應作為是什麼"},{"start":466.667,"end":492.217,"text":"我們做好自己的準備什麼啊就是所有的過程我們要請軍方單位能夠詳細的瞭解甚至監控瞭解不會對人民造成任何的威脅因為有關於中共聯合利劍逼這個計畫已經講了兩三天了那你現在是說要請國防部瞭解我現在事先都沒有掌握狀況嗎一直有瞭解那你現在掌握狀況是怎樣"},{"start":493.989,"end":512.841,"text":"很多事情我不便在這裏說那我們因應作為可以說嗎因應作為就是就以前現在這個不只是聯合利劍B他過去有很多的演練啊我們都持續在瞭解當然是這樣院長我現在是針對非常具體的問題在問你我現在針對非常具體的問題在問你那你告訴我SOP現在我們要做什麼然後全國台灣民眾要注意什麼那政府的作為是什麼"},{"start":523.248,"end":523.849,"text":"民眾想要知道因為軍演這個事情是很嚴重的問題"},{"start":542.225,"end":561.617,"text":"那您是我們國家的最高行政首長當對岸發布這樣訊息之後呢我們國人非常的緊張我們希望政府穩定民心告訴大家接下來我們要怎麼做或是我們什麼都不用做然後我們政府絕對會因應很好那政府的因應作為是什麼就是請你告訴大家嘛我們要掌握然後那我們因應作為是什麼"},{"start":569.782,"end":596.984,"text":"在國慶當中我們辦好國內的國慶我們的因應作為就是他發射他的導彈然後我們來辦我們的國慶這兩個不同的事情嘛他發射他導彈我也要吃飯啊我今天也來總質詢啊我們等一下該怎樣該怎樣這是一回事嘛我現在講是針對他發射導彈我們的因應作為是什麼我們的因應作為不是辦國慶國慶是本來我們就要做的事因應作為是什麼當天是國慶所以我們也一定提高我們的"},{"start":598.005,"end":617.064,"text":"各種在國防上安全的監控這個是一定的所以國訓之外的前後呢我們都有一直瞭解他所有的這個演練的過程但是我們也不希望對方瞭解知道我們瞭解多少我們有瞭解就對了啦我們之前就掌握他要發射這個中程導彈嗎當然不知道聽我講還知道的"},{"start":620.808,"end":621.268,"text":"發言委員．葉元之"},{"start":644.088,"end":670.449,"text":"也有可能是目前沒有因應作為 你要去開會討論也有可能那總統府會不會召開國安會議 你應該也不曉得嘛 對不對總統要不要召開國安會議 總統自會有他的判斷即使不召開形式上的國安會議 在國慶這一個階段當中對國家安全的回顧一定是提高緊急的好 那院長 那我就來問一個您可能會知道的東西的因為你禮拜五中午的時候要跟韓院長吃和解飯嘛 對不對"},{"start":672.564,"end":694.989,"text":"參訊參訊啦齁所以和解飯這三個字不是您講的齁我希望這是一張快樂的參訊那和解飯這三個字怎麼出現的媒體給我們媒體報的齁那這個參訊就是只是一場參訊嗎是我們希望能夠會不會那個和解飯吃完就是吃了一頓飯就是大家覺得那個雞湯很好喝院長跟我邀請的是三個黨團的好那院長你期待達到什麼效果"},{"start":695.749,"end":708.717,"text":"我們期待國家繼續往前走預算能夠互相瞭解因為剛剛我聽你跟廖謙祥的答詢你覺得現在卡在立法院不了解您的立場對不對"},{"start":711.11,"end":739,"text":"是嗎?你剛剛是認為都是立法院的錯嗎?你都認為是立法院的錯那在和解犯的時候你會這樣子教訓立法院嗎?說都是你們不了解我們吶還有立法院怎麼可以隨便通過法律呢叫我們來執行你們的預算呢你會這樣教訓像剛剛這樣子去教訓那個副總召還是教訓那個韓院長嗎?怎麼會用教訓?那你會用什麼方式跟他溝通?怎麼會用教訓?那會用什麼方式溝通?我們在"},{"start":740.765,"end":759.318,"text":"參與的前前後後跟中間我們都可以表達表達因為您的立場其實我們都非常了解但我覺得如果能夠預算能夠順利的正在實質上的去審查那將來對遺留下的問題那院長你會講到說哎呀治水預算一刻不能等所以你們總預算趕快復違你會講出這種話嗎"},{"start":762.329,"end":791.07,"text":"我心裡這麼想但是我認為我沒有想過現在的治水預算因為颱風風災所造成的一些災害要重建的治水預算不是早就在你的手裡了嗎這不是去年通過的嗎是今年度的對今年度嘛所以一顆不能等講的是明年是不是明年551億所以你跟大家講一顆不能等講的是明年是不是明年的預算一顆不能等那這樣啦院長一顆不能等以後治水預算都不要送來立法院了啦你直接行政院簽一簽馬上通過了啦"},{"start":791.852,"end":792.433,"text":"明年的總預算是審到幾月幾號?"},{"start":817.145,"end":826.079,"text":"明天總計算省到幾月幾號當然希望今年度能夠完成啊今年度是不是到12月31號對嘛所以現在你一直講一刻不能等好像是現在立刻要通過一樣"},{"start":827.427,"end":827.968,"text":"致水預算"},{"start":849.807,"end":875.344,"text":"今年治水預算早就在你手上了嘛現在大家省的是明年的嘛那你說一刻不能等好像現在就要通過一樣今年12月31號通過就可以嘛院長我跟你講既然啦要和解飯要吃飯大家不要吵架嘛你講出這種治水預算一刻不能等大家就生氣了這個吃飯達不到效果我只願我那個和解飯因為我沒辦法去吃啦我是建議說建議有些話不要講"},{"start":880.067,"end":881.469,"text":"我講的是明年度550億我覺得你講這個話也汙名化了原住民很多原住民朋友跟我講"},{"start":898.185,"end":919.335,"text":"現在搞得好像是原住民在擋治水預算但是我的原住民朋友啊他說這個淨寶補償條例從3萬到6萬這個東西這個不是恩己耶這不是福利耶這個是應該給原住民的補償耶要不然這樣子啊你讓他土地使用嘛讓他可以開發他賺到的錢絕對超過一年6萬塊"},{"start":920.555,"end":945.774,"text":"可是國家叫他不要開發因為水土保持那給他補償變成一種恩惠政府已經對你們很好了啦你不要吵啦包括那個原住民主委講說原住民的預算今年已經比去年多變了12%哇賽要原住民感恩戴德喔把他們當作什麼啊重點是這是補償這是正義這個不是恩己不是恩惠我希望原住民主委"},{"start":951.273,"end":956.71,"text":"謝謝葉委員謝謝卓院長下一位請"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:49:01 - 10:04:58","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155245","gazette":{"lineno":188,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（9時49分）院長，麻煩請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：卓院長好。我想先針對板橋有一個地方人士非常關心的都市計畫跟院長陳情，因為這個都市計畫已經拖非常久了，當初新北市政府第一次是102年送到內政部，後來因為退回公展，又整合地方意見，所以整合了8年，110年再送到內政部，這就是我們的浮洲都市計畫。110年送到內政部之後，內政部在111年2月開了第一次的都委會專案小組會議，因為覺得8年過了太久，所以又退回要新北市政府再次公展，再整合地方意見。新北市政府112年10月又報內政部，目前又開了兩次的專案小組會議，一次是在今年5月7號，另外一次是9月26號。","我特別利用總質詢的時間跟院長講，是因為這個都市計畫真的很久了，也經歷了蔡總統時代、歷任行政院長。過去有行政院長跟內政部長到了我們那個地方，都被地方的里長問這個都市計畫，結果都答不出來，地方人士就覺得政府好像很不重視這個都市計畫，所以我今天特別利用這個機會當面跟院長報告，希望你也來關心這個案子，因為這個浮洲都市計畫對我們地方發展很重要。第一個，它有非常多的都市更新規劃。第二個，它也幫助到泰板輕軌的興建，因為泰板輕軌的部分道路必須經過區段徵收取得，還有就是這個都市計畫一直沒有通過，導致地方有很多污水下水道也沒有辦法興建。當然這個都市計畫通過之後，對於中央社會住宅的興建，也有相關配合，因為會提撥5%的地，諸如此類還有安全的問題。我在這邊希望院長可以承諾，因為實在拖太久了，我們能不能設定一個階段性的目標？在明年中，讓這個專案小組可以送出、送到大會去，不知道可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員過去的努力，我確實不是真的了解，但我知道現在9月26號內政部正在召開都委會的專案小組會議，請部長來說明。"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員補充一下……"],["葉委員元之：今天為什麼我會在這邊提？因為拖太久了，所以每一次專案小組都在前情提要，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長來說明。"],["葉委員元之：我先說明一下我的一些問題，因為每一次專案小組都在前情提要，都在說之前發生什麼、這個案子是怎樣，為什麼？因為實在拖太久了，所以這就浪費了非常多時間，然後每一次專案小組跟專案小組會議中間又隔非常久，你看上一次是5月7號，後來就排了9月26號，5月7號之前，新北市政府更是半年前就提報內政部，半年之後才安排專案小組，這都是浪費時間……"],["劉部長世芳：應該不是這樣的程序……"],["葉委員元之：再來就是第一次專案小組所提出來的結論，我看到也是不太能接受，因為他叫新北市政府再提供一些路段排為區段徵收的原則到底是什麼？然後他叫新北市政府去調查浮洲當地的現況以及違章工廠使用情形。這些東西、這些資料早就有了，結果隔了這麼久開的專案小組會議還叫人家做早就在做的事情，把都市計畫的審議變成一種作文比賽，好像沒有很想要讓這個都市計畫通過。我在這邊請院長關心，請部長關心……"],["劉部長世芳：我補充一下，好嗎？"],["葉委員元之：我還沒講完，請院長關心，請部長關心，這個拖很久了，這是我們地方的期待，趕快設定一個階段性的目標，我們希望明年中把它送出大會，然後每一次會的中間間隔短一點，不要一直前情回顧，也不要一直要求地方作文比賽，這是我們地方的期待。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，不是這樣子。"],["葉委員元之：我知道院長過去也做過立委，也是民意代表出身，我們都接地氣、懂民心，部長也是，不知道可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：葉委員，我補充一下。第四次的會議在10月31號就要召開，所牽涉到的問題不是像你所講的作文比賽，而是因為有一些人陳案。現在人陳案有227件、有56案的變更，這個部分就必須要新北市政府跟內政部一起來共同解決。"],["葉委員元之：新北市的都有！部長，因為你也不了解這個案子，你現在只是在唸資料而已。我已經把我的訴求講了，院長可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有，我要跟你講的是，這裡面跨你講的下水道的部分……"],["葉委員元之：院長可以嗎？可以嗎？明年中我們設定一個階段性的目標。"],["劉部長世芳：我們也沒有辦法……我們有階段性的目標在往前推動，沒有錯！"],["葉委員元之：盡量，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：你又不願意聽。"],["葉委員元之：你現在就唸資料而已，你沒有了解這個案子，你也沒去開會。"],["劉部長世芳：但是你剛有提到污水下水道的部分，我也要跟你講污水下水道……"],["葉委員元之：污水下水道是因為要經過區段徵收。因為污水下水道要經過一些公有土地，那邊就卡住了，經過區段徵收、重劃之後就可以興建，問題在這裡。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有。新北市政府在10月1號已經提送了這個設計報告。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝部長。因為我還有其他議題，你在這邊唸資料，就等於有點浪費我的時間……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我已經跟你講我們現在的實際進度。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以請內政部把這個開會的時間弄得緊密一點……"],["葉委員元之：把它縮短，然後希望在更換專案小組的學者專家之前，可以趕快送大會，不然就是要一直一直前情提要……"],["劉部長世芳：一定要解決爭議，不是讓都委會完全……"],["葉委員元之：一直要告訴新的委員說，這個發生什麼事情，然後每一次……"],["劉部長世芳：希望新北市政府不要一案一案解決……"],["葉委員元之：不要插我的話，這個是都市計畫的案子，你也要插話，這又不是政治議題！"],["劉部長世芳：對不起、對不起！"],["葉委員元之：你是習慣性插話？"],["劉部長世芳：對不起、對不起！"],["葉委員元之：部長，你真的很奇怪，我在講都市計畫，你也要插話。"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉。"],["葉委員元之：院長，可不可以節制一下？我從頭到尾都那麼客氣，你也要這樣？"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉。"],["葉委員元之：大家保持互相尊重，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，她是……"],["葉委員元之：請你下去了，我要換下一個議題了。"],["卓院長榮泰：她很積極向委員說明清楚。"],["葉委員元之：不是，她講的都是唸資料，這我都知道，這跟我的訴求無關，我們希望反映地方意見，希望這趕快通過，不是說你拿人家給你的資料來唸，你上來之前，根本沒聽過這個都市計畫。好啦，請你下去啦！"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：院長，接下來我想跟你請教一下，剛剛國防部發布了一個非常重要的話題，就是10月10號的時候，中共要射火箭，這個事情你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他現在……"],["葉委員元之：已經發布，國防部已經發布了。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個很長一段階段，他都在臺灣的……"],["葉委員元之：不是啦，我問你剛剛的事情，剛剛發布了啦，說已經要設火箭，會通過臺灣。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望……"],["葉委員元之：這可能是不是之前講的國安單位掌握的聯合利劍B？當時就已經說了可能會發射中程導彈。"],["卓院長榮泰：聯合利劍B，沒有錯，我希望他的演習是針對他自己所轄有效範圍內做他自己軍事的演練，對於這種妨害到區域安全、印太地區安全跟穩定的動作，希望中國能夠有所節制。"],["葉委員元之：你在這邊呼籲他節制，他就會節制嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["葉委員元之：不會嘛！所以你的因應作為是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們做好自己的準備。"],["葉委員元之：什麼啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是所有的過程，我們要請軍方單位能夠詳細的了解，甚至監控、了解過程，不會對臺灣人民造成任何的威脅。"],["葉委員元之：院長，因為有關於中共聯合利劍B這個計畫已經講了兩、三天了啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["葉委員元之：你現在是說要請國防部了解。"],["卓院長榮泰：一直有了解。"],["葉委員元之：就事先都沒有掌握狀況嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，一直有了解。"],["葉委員元之：一直有了解，那你現在掌握的狀況是怎樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：很多事情我不便在這裡說。"],["葉委員元之：不便說，那我們的因應作為可以說嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因應作為就是就以前、現在……不只是聯合利劍B，他過去有很多的演練，我們都持續在了解、有掌握，這一次當然是這樣……"],["葉委員元之：院長，我現在是針對非常具體的問題在問你。"],["卓院長榮泰：過幾天是我們的國慶，所有的防衛當然……"],["葉委員元之：我現在針對非常具體的問題在問你，那你告訴我SOP，現在我們要做什麼？然後全國臺灣民眾要注意什麼？那政府的作為是什麼？你現在告訴大家嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：過幾天我們的國慶，我們還是以我們……"],["葉委員元之：過幾天？人家已經都要發布，我們還過幾天？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是以我們國內的國慶為主……"],["葉委員元之：反正他演他的，我們就辦我們……"],["卓院長榮泰：國安上面的問題，委員請放心。"],["葉委員元之：不是國安上面的問題，民眾想要知道，因為軍演這個事情是很嚴重的問題，您是我們國家的最高行政首長，當對岸發布這樣的訊息之後，我們國人非常的緊張，我們希望政府穩定民心，告訴大家接下來我們要怎麼做？或是我們什麼都不用做，然後我們政府絕對會因應很好，那政府的因應作為是什麼？就是請你告訴大家嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：國防部發布這個訊息就是向國人表達，我們對所有的狀況都掌握地非常清楚。"],["葉委員元之：我們有掌握，那我們的因應作為是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我就是說，在國慶當中，我們辦好國內的國慶……"],["葉委員元之：我們的因應作為就是他發射他的導彈，然後我們來辦我們的國慶？"],["卓院長榮泰：軍方一定提高所有的安全……"],["葉委員元之：這兩個不同的事情嘛！他發射他的導彈，我們也要吃飯啊，我今天也來總質詢啊，我們等一下該怎樣、該怎樣，這是一回事嘛，我現在講是針對他發射導彈，我們的因應作為是什麼？我們的因應作為不是辦國慶，國慶是本來我們就要做的事。"],["卓院長榮泰：聽我講完啊！"],["葉委員元之：因應作為是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說當天是國慶，所以我們也一定提高我們各種在國防上安全的監控，這個是一定的。"],["葉委員元之：除了國慶之外的前後呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都有一直了解他所有演練的過程，但是我們也不希望對方知道我們了解多少。"],["葉委員元之：所以院長，第一，我們有了解就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：一直有。"],["葉委員元之：我們之前就有掌握他要發射這個中程導彈嗎？之前就有掌握？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不知道，但是這個聯合利劍B……"],["葉委員元之：不知道，聽我講才知道的？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是，聯合利劍B……"],["葉委員元之：那你什麼時候……我說發射火箭是聽我講才知道嘛？因為你被綁在這裡，你都在上面……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是聽委員……"],["葉委員元之：聽我講的，哇！我真的榮幸成為告訴你這個重要訊息的人，你說我們也有相關因應作為，只是不能說嘛！是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也不希望對方知道我們了解多少。"],["葉委員元之：我們不希望對方知道，我想也問不出來啦，也有可能是目前沒有因應作為，你要去開會討論也有可能啦，或者是……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會。"],["葉委員元之：那總統府會不會召開國安會議，你應該也不曉得，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統府要不要召開國安會議，總統自會有他的……"],["葉委員元之：他的判斷？"],["卓院長榮泰：判斷，對。"],["葉委員元之：好，OK。"],["卓院長榮泰：即使不召開形式上的國安會議，在國慶這一個階段當中，對國家安全的維護，一定是提高警覺。"],["葉委員元之：好，院長，那我就來問一個你可能會知道的問題，你禮拜五中午要跟韓院長吃和解飯，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：餐敘。"],["葉委員元之：餐敘啦！所以「和解飯」這三個字不是你講的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望這是一場快樂的餐敘。"],["葉委員元之：那「和解飯」這三個字怎麼出現？"],["卓院長榮泰：是媒體給我們的一個任務。"],["葉委員元之：媒體報的。這個餐敘就只是一場餐敘嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望能夠……"],["葉委員元之：會不會和解飯吃完，就是吃了一頓飯，大家覺得那個雞湯很好喝？"],["卓院長榮泰：院長跟我邀請的是三個黨團的幹部。"],["葉委員元之：好，那院長期待達到什麼效果？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們期待國家繼續往前走，預算能夠互相了解之後……"],["葉委員元之：預算怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：預算能夠互相了解之後……"],["葉委員元之：互相了解嘛！剛剛我聽你跟廖先翔的答詢，你覺得現在是卡在立法院不了解您的立場，對不對？是嘛！你剛剛認為都是立法院的錯……"],["卓院長榮泰：說過很多次了。"],["葉委員元之：你認為都是立法院的錯，那在和解飯的時候，你會這樣教訓立法院說，都是你們不了解我們，還有立法院怎麼可以隨便通過法律，叫我們來執行你們的預算呢？你會像剛剛這樣子教訓傅總召，還是教訓韓院長嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：怎麼會用教訓？"],["葉委員元之：那你會用什麼方式跟他溝通？"],["卓院長榮泰：怎會用教訓兩個字？"],["葉委員元之：那你會用什麼方式溝通？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在餐敘的前前後後跟中間，都可以表達我們的意見……"],["葉委員元之：對，表達，其實您的立場我們都非常了解，但是我覺得……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果預算能夠順利、正常地實質審查，那將來對遺留下來的問題……"],["葉委員元之：那院長你會講說：哎呀，治水預算一刻不能等，所以你們總預算趕快付委。你會講出這種話嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我心裡這麼想，但是我認為不會過……"],["葉委員元之：心裡這麼想？現在的治水預算，因為颱風風災造成的一些災害而需要重建的治水預算，不是早就在你的手裡了嗎？今年度的預算不是早就通過了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是今年度的。"],["葉委員元之：對，今年度的嘛！所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：但明年還有……"],["葉委員元之：所以院長講的是明年，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：明年551億……"],["葉委員元之：所以你跟大家講的一刻不能等，講的是明年的，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：明年……"],["葉委員元之：治水預算一刻不能等？這樣啦，院長，一刻不能等，以後治水預算都不要送來立法院，直接行政院簽一簽馬上通過，因為一刻不能等啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果大家這樣要求，我也不一定敢這麼做啊！"],["葉委員元之：哇塞！民主國家的行政院長，居然會講出這種獨裁的話，我也是非常訝異！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你聽清楚，我是說你這麼說、大家這麼說，我們也不敢這麼做，我說我也不敢這麼做喔！"],["葉委員元之：院長，我問你啦！明年的總預算是審到幾月幾號？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你要聽清楚，不要誤解我。我說你這個提議大院通過，我也不敢這麼做。"],["葉委員元之：明年的總預算是審到幾月幾號？明年總預算審到幾月幾號？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然希望今年度能夠完成。"],["葉委員元之：今年度是不是到12月31號，對嘛！所以你一直講一刻不能等，好像現在要立刻通過一樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：我說明年度的……"],["葉委員元之：如果到12月30號，你跟大家講說明年的治水預算一刻不能等，請大家在這一天通過，我贊成，但是現在還有三個月時間，你說一刻不能等，我就覺得你這個是話術！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，這裡是質詢……"],["葉委員元之：這個就是話術啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：在電視上這樣搶話，說明年度的治水預算……"],["葉委員元之：治水預算？今年的治水預算早就在你手上了，現在大家要審的是明年的，你說一刻不能等，好像現在就要通過一樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：今年是救急的……"],["葉委員元之：預算在今年12月31號通過就可以了嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：現在是救急……"],["葉委員元之：院長，既然要和解、要吃飯，大家不要吵架，你講出這種治水預算一刻不能等的話，大家就生氣了，這個飯就達不到效果，因為那個和解飯……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我再慎重講一次……"],["葉委員元之：因為我沒辦法去吃啦！我只是建議有些話不要講……"],["卓院長榮泰：明年度的治水預算551億……"],["葉委員元之：再來，剛剛廖先翔委員……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，這樣永遠沒有辦法溝通，我講的是明年度551億……"],["葉委員元之：當然嘛！我的意思是12月31號你講這個，大家可以接受，但現在10月你講這個，那就是話術了嘛！","再來，我覺得你講這個話也污名化了原住民，你知道很多原住民朋友跟我講，他們說：哇！現在搞得好像原住民在擋治水預算。我的原住民朋友說，禁伐補償條例從3萬到6萬並不是恩給，也不是福利，這是應該給原住民的補償。他說要不然這樣子，你讓他的土地可以使用，可以開發，他賺到的錢絕對超過一年6萬塊，可是國家叫他不要開發，因為要水土保持，那給他補償，變成是一種恩惠，好像政府已經對他們很好，他們不要吵啦！包括那個原住民主委講的，原住民預算今年已經比去年多編了12%，哇塞！要原住民感恩戴德喔！把他們當作什麼啊！重點是這是補償、這是正義，這不是恩給、不是恩惠，希望原住民主委要比我懂得原住民，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝葉委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請黃仁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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總統公布之後的時候我們的總預算已經變得差不多了我們很難去挪我們以後想辦法去怎麼把它補足包括您剛剛可能有些人說用基金階制印往後年度可能再把它補足等等的立法院是這樣的心態嗎還是說認為只要行政院通過了法律只要跟這個單價跟金額有關的都不應該"},{"start":310.029,"end":318.288,"text":"我說法律本身可以要求行政院執行某一種政策但是這個政策的執行的過程行政院必須提出整套的計畫"},{"start":319.261,"end":345.143,"text":"他必須也衡量所有部會在編列預算以國家政策推動的整體性要走我就跟部長報告除了原住民進法補償條例還有其他許多的法律立法院通過的法律都有在法律中明定政府應該編列的法律預算的金額"},{"start":346.204,"end":347.605,"text":"法律總統公布就是法律了"},{"start":370.334,"end":379.04,"text":"還有尊不尊守的問題阿沒有問題我們來看一下其他立法院通過的法律我們到下一張這個就剛剛講的啦下一張這個可能主決議啦 總統講的話也不是法律啦或許挑不了這個民眾自有公平啦沒關係下一張好 這個也是立法院通過的一個法律嘛有機農業獎勵補助辦法跟"},{"start":399.795,"end":407.018,"text":"原住民進法補償條例 非常的類似有面積單位每公頃有錢6萬、24萬、8萬請問一下有進農業獎勵及補貼辦法 行政院有沒有編組"},{"start":412.79,"end":437.858,"text":"我覺得這個要經過行政立法兩院之間來協調就某一個政策同意在一定的時程或編築一定的預算像我們這樣來執行在進法補償這件事情顯然不是如此我們在草野協商的過程當中提出說如果編到4萬塊行政院是可以接受的但是在那個過程就沒有辦法這樣執行如果每個法律都是這樣子"},{"start":439.638,"end":464.651,"text":"這樣對行政院的壓力是等於形成對國人國家財務紀律最大的壓力所以依照院長的講法我們的政府面對法律可以選擇性的一個執行不是選擇性我們行政院面對中華民國的法律可以看得順眼的就執行看不順眼的我就不遵守嗎委員請不要用選擇性這兩個字如果你用選擇性我就在說不要用壓迫性"},{"start":466.752,"end":487.291,"text":"這是法律阿這是法律吧這是立法院通過的法律總統頒布吧他是一個他目前為止不是一個違憲的法律吧我們不要用這個字眼這是互相協調的如果協調到一個我們認為財政的負擔底下可以而且他符合"},{"start":487.911,"end":510.969,"text":"循序漸進的增加可以從3萬塊一下跳到6萬塊哪一個國家的補貼政策是有這樣的目前我們的行政院到目前為止沒有釋出善意的來跟立法會公佈說就像我剛剛一開始講的或許總統頒布的時候我們行政院明年的總預算已經編的差不多了我們很難去挪這個可能20多億的一個10多億20多億的預算進來"},{"start":512.31,"end":522.462,"text":"那可以來跟我們立法院協商說明年度或許很難上路我們用其他辦法來補足那往後年度我們逐漸把它上路那目前的情況就是將在這邊阿"},{"start":524.039,"end":545.271,"text":"我們行政院就什麼都不做啊整天在那邊這個錢只有好啦不要講一些政治性的攻擊的話啦那目前就是兩院沒有實際溝通嘛不要認為這個錢少這個代表的意義就是兩院之間有沒有遵照整個預算編列制定跟審議的兩院的權力分立來看"},{"start":545.931,"end":558.947,"text":"我們在乎的是我們的行政院有沒有依法編列預算所以以後任何立法院通過的法律沒有經過行政院的認可這個法律就沒有辦法生效嗎以後立法院沒有經過"},{"start":566.441,"end":589.959,"text":"協商 照院長講的立法院通過的法律在通過前沒有跟立法院協商獲得共識 這個法律就不用生效嗎從此以往所有的法律都是兩院協商過的哇 這個立法院太侵權了吧沒有行政院同意的 沒有經過協商行政院認可的法律"},{"start":591.124,"end":608.151,"text":"行政院可以不遵守立法院飛掉了啦難怪之前很多人說立法院是行政院的立法局立法院經過了法律居然要行政院同意有什麼奇怪的道理啊協商是立法院內部草野的協商協商是一個過程啊協商的結果是要順行政院的意嗎"},{"start":609.6,"end":629.299,"text":"協商我們希望提出我們對整個的規劃而不是用這種方式就一定要你增加多少預算如果今天原住民來一次客家來一次婦女來一次勞動來一次教師來一次警察來一次您認為政府承受得了嗎我們都必須學習執政將來有一天或許您的努力以後你會站在這個地方你就知道國家不是這樣在經營的"},{"start":631.189,"end":655.857,"text":"不過不想執政的政黨他也許可以這樣做如果你也想執政你就必須學習執政的經驗跟執政的過程我執政之後大家可能上任的第一天就是克遵中華民國的憲法遵守中華民國的法律我講這個是新政部門最基本最基本的還有不浪費公帑當然不浪費公帑啊所以我們對所有的預算都會這個原住民進發補償條例對院長是這個浪費公帑是不是"},{"start":659.458,"end":662.482,"text":"這是違反國家財政紀律違反國家財政紀律的編法就是讓我們在這種狀況底下去施衡整個預算的編列"},{"start":675.316,"end":695.192,"text":"好 下一頁這個也是啦 舉個例啦就是剛剛補充一下啦 這個也是舉個例啦交通部加速擴大吸引國際公安課 獎助辦法 境外獎勵每人五千啦 也明訂啦 明訂金額啦下一頁老農津貼也一樣啦 明訂金額啦那可能院長認為說 這個沒有經過"},{"start":698.986,"end":724.83,"text":"這個有經過行政院的同意當時都經過很好的協商立法院裡面的共識、兩院的共識所以委員不在這裡,不知道那個時候立法院的文化就是這樣子所以立法院隨便,立法委員提增加國家可能如果說立法院通過委員提的這個法律案這會增加行政院預算的話可能都是不太恰當的嘛,是不是不太恰當的"},{"start":726.439,"end":748.705,"text":"委員可以提一個法案希望行政院做哪些政策但這個政策如何執行 計畫 預算都要行政院來編列編列完之後 執行完之後 接受委員的監督 這樣才是兩院的制衡嘛 check and balance但是我們的總統好像不是這麼認為"},{"start":750.319,"end":774.279,"text":"民國97年3月14號國民年金法部份台灣修正法案提案人柯建銘、戴清德、葉怡菁第52條之一新增項目新增項目這個分完這是生育給付特別規定就是可能在國民年金在生育的部分特別增加了一些預算增加預算的部分就是一定是國家"},{"start":775.293,"end":800.331,"text":"要增編預算在院長的眼裡這可能有點違法兩院的怨氣後來有沒有通過那下一案請問委員後來有沒有通過確定獎勵再生能源發電條例這個也是提案人非常多藍綠都有藍綠都有包括我們的賴清德總統這個也是每電收購多少元也是要求國家增編預算後來有沒有通過"},{"start":801.192,"end":828.445,"text":"財政人員條例現在不是被罵得很慘嗎?有沒有通過財政人員條例應該有,現在在上路吧那就是行政兩位互相,兩位協調的結果剛剛院長說我們立法委員提的預算增加國家編列的預算剛剛院長說我們立法委員提的法律案如果會增加國家預算的話這個東西可能不太恰當"},{"start":829.125,"end":845.975,"text":"我都說要經過兩院的協調才可以總統都一直在這麼做經常斷了我一句話,這樣不好,這樣會造成大家的誤會這個金額更高了,97年7月8日當然是民主進步黨立法院黨團提案,但這時候可能賴清德總統是黨團幹部,一樣有提案"},{"start":852.674,"end":867.509,"text":"可能那時候有一些金融風暴那希望政府增編一些經費政府擴大公共投資經費上限583億元那其中也有一些個人的細項包括本人4000元撫養親屬美人4000元也是有一個預算的規模"},{"start":871.272,"end":876.699,"text":"委員我們這一代政治人物不要用故意的方式來誤解大家我沒有說立法院不能提這個案"},{"start":888.394,"end":889.335,"text":"總預算將局賴統統目前神隱除了在媒體上面"},{"start":910.624,"end":928.895,"text":"發一些言打打嘴砲嘴在野糖之外用情緒勒索治水預算設服預算綁架衛浴法邊的預算之外總統好像有一些正事沒做啦中華民國憲法第44條這個院與院之間的紛爭除本憲法規定外的召集各位院長委員情緒性的發言解決不了實質問題"},{"start":936.994,"end":943.286,"text":"好,謝謝廖委員下一位我們請葉元之委員質詢"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:33:09 - 09:48:54","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155244","gazette":{"lineno":87,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（9時33分）謝謝副院長，一樣邀請我們的卓院長。"],["主席：有請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：院長好。院長，最近我收到了一個糾紛案，有一個政府單位採購了一包米，這個政府單位收到的時候發現這包米裡面有兩粒米黑了、壞了，因此採購人員選擇不簽收，但是這個商家也不寄一包沒有問題的米過來，現在就僵在這邊，請問院長是建議這個採購單位的採購人員睜一隻眼閉一隻眼，把這包有問題的米收下來，還是要請這個商家的老闆寄一包新的過來？"],["卓院長榮泰：買賣是一種在民法上的契約，雙方中出賣人的這一方必須要有對瑕疵擔保的責任，任何的瑕疵都應該要做適當地回復原狀或者是彌補，我想這個是法律上的要求。"],["廖委員先翔：對，一個東西有其完整性，不能因為大部分是好的，少部分有問題就硬要人家吞進去，對不對？","我想院長應該非常清楚，我舉這個例子就是要提我們的總預算案。我們這一次的總預算案沒有付委，您認為是立法院惡意杯葛嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得立法院是對行政院所提出的理由還不甚瞭解，我們希望做繼續的溝通。"],["廖委員先翔：所以過了這麼久的時間，院長還不瞭解我們立法院，包括國民黨、民眾黨，還有無黨籍的委員，沒有將總預算案付委的原因，您到現在為止沒有來瞭解？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說大院不瞭解行政院這次編列預算的原因，所以我們會繼續溝通。"],["廖委員先翔：是立法院不瞭解行政院編列的原因，好。立法院的立場，院長應該非常清楚，主要有三點，一個法律案的問題就是原住民的禁伐補償條例，這個東西是法律案，還有兩個立法院的主決議，就是健保點值每點0.9，另外一個是公糧收購價的問題，這兩個是立法院的主決議。好，我們先撇開立法院的主決議不講，立法院的主決議畢竟不是法律，針對這個立法院通過的中華民國的法律，行政院好像有一些疑義，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，委員，我們也應該瞭解，如果用一個法律，就要求行政院編足預算，將來立法院通過了更多更多的法律，行政院就必須編列更多更多的預算，這個就打破了行政院制定編列預算、立法院審議預算這樣的常規，這個也是憲法賦予兩院共同的權責……"],["廖委員先翔：所以您上次跟邱鎮軍委員回應的就是一樣，就是立法院如果一直修改法律的話，可能預算你們就無法掌握，會一直膨脹下去，你們擔心的是這一點，我想請問一下，我們行政院這一次編列的114年總預算有沒有任何一塊錢不是依照中華民國的法律去編列的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都要依法編列。"],["廖委員先翔：對，行政院114年的總預算所編列的每一塊錢都是依照立法院通過的法律，行政院依照這個法律來編列總預算，它才有它的適法性，但是今天我們行政院似乎特別針對原住民禁伐補償條例的這條法律，好像選擇性的執法，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：法律制定完成，可以請行政院去執行某一個政策，但是這個政策如何執行、時間、計畫、預算應該讓行政院來處理。委員，大院是監督，如果一個計畫……"],["廖委員先翔：所以院長認為這6萬元可能太急了，明年來不及編，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果一個計畫、預算都是由立法院提出，立法院本身再來監督，那就違反了兩院……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係！如果院長認為每公頃6萬塊的法律案通過、總統公布的時候，我們的總預算已經編得差不多了，我們很難去挪，我們以後想辦法去怎麼把它補足，包括有些人說用基金先來支應，往後年度再把它補足等等的，行政院是這樣的心態嗎？還是認為只要立法院通過的法律跟單價、跟金額有關的都不應該？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說法律本身可以要求行政院執行某一種政策，但是這個政策執行的過程，行政院必須提出整套的計畫，它也必須衡量所有部會在編列預算，以及國家政策推動的整體性要走……"],["廖委員先翔：好，我就跟部長報告……"],["卓院長榮泰：像這一次，從3萬到6萬這樣的調整……"],["廖委員先翔：除了原住民禁伐補償條例，還有其他許多的法律，立法院通過的法律都有在法律中明定政府應該編列的法定預算金額、單位，非常多，有沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：那個都必須經過兩院協商……"],["廖委員先翔：國家的法律還有有沒有經過協商、人民要不要遵守的問題啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，委員，您到立法院不久……"],["廖委員先翔：以後沒有經過協商通過的法律，人民可以不遵守嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所謂協商不是形式上的協商，是我們對共同推動的……"],["廖委員先翔：法律經總統公布就是法律，還有遵不遵守的問題啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在禁伐補償的過程當中，有提出不要一次漲到6萬，但不被大院所接受，我們無法承受。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，我們來看其他相關立法院通過的法律。這個就剛剛講的。這個是主決議，總統講的話也不是法律，或許跳票，民眾自有公評，沒關係！這個也是立法院通過的一個法律，有機農業獎勵補助辦法，跟原住民禁伐補償條例非常的類似，有面積單位──每公頃，有錢──6萬、24萬、8萬，我請問一下，有機農業獎勵及補貼辦法行政院有沒有編足？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得這個要編必須經過行政、立法兩院之間來協調，就某一個政策同意在一定的時程或編足一定的預算，這樣我們當然能執行。在禁伐補償這一件事情顯然不是如此，我們在朝野協商的過程當中提出，如果編到4萬塊，行政院是可以接受的，但是在那個過程就沒有辦法這樣執行。如果每個法律都是這樣子，這樣對行政院的壓力等於形成對國人、國家財務紀律最大的壓力啊！"],["廖委員先翔：依照院長的講法，我們的政府面對法律可以選擇性的執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是選擇性，不要用「選擇性」……"],["廖委員先翔：我們行政院面對中華民國的法律，可以看得順眼的就執行，看不順眼的就不遵守嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，請不要用「選擇性」這幾個字，如果你用選擇性，我就要說不要用壓迫性。"],["廖委員先翔：這是法律啊！這是法律吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是用壓迫的，我覺得這是壓迫性，一定要接受，不接受不行……"],["廖委員先翔：這是立法院通過的法律，總統頒布……"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣不好，委員，不要用選擇性……"],["廖委員先翔：目前為止，它不是一個違憲的法律吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也不要用這個字眼，我們不要用這個字眼，這是互相協調的，如果協調到一個我們認為財政可以負擔，而且它符合循序漸進的增加，可以。但從3萬塊一下跳到6萬塊，哪一個國家的補貼政策是這樣子？"],["廖委員先翔：可以啊！但我們的行政院到目前為止沒有釋出善意的來跟立法院溝通，就像我剛剛一開始講的，或許總統頒布的時候，行政院明年的總預算已經編得差不多了，我們很難去挪這個可能十多億、二十多億的預算進來，那可以來跟我們立法院協商，說明年度或許很難上路，我們用其他辦法來補足，往後年度我們逐漸把它上路，但目前的情況就是僵在這邊，行政院就什麼都不做啊！整天在那邊透過……好啦！我不要講一些政治性的攻擊的話，但目前就是兩院沒有溝通……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個錢的差距是二十幾億，不要認為這個錢少，這個代表的意義就是兩院之間有沒有遵照整個預算編列、制定跟審議的兩院的權力分立來看。"],["廖委員先翔：我們在乎的是我們的行政院有沒有依法編列預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：大院常常提醒我們一塊錢都不能浪費，不是錢多錢少的問題。"],["廖委員先翔：所以以後任何立法院通過的法律，沒有經過行政院的認可，這個法律就沒有辦法生效嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員不要用「認可」兩個字，是協商、協調的過程，我很重視這個。"],["廖委員先翔：照院長講的，以後立法院通過的法律，在通過前沒有跟行政院協商獲得共識，這個法律就不用生效嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：從此以往，所有的法律都是兩院協商過的。"],["廖委員先翔：哇，這個行政院太侵權了吧！沒有經過協商、行政院認可的法律，行政院可以不遵守，立法院廢掉好了啦！難怪之前很多人說立法院是行政院的立法局，立法院通過的法律居然要行政院同意，這是什麼奇怪的道理啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員不要生氣，協商是立法院內部朝野協商。"],["廖委員先翔：協商是一個過程，協商的結果是要順行政院的意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：協商時我們希望提出我們對整個的規劃，而不是用這種方式，就一定要你增加多少預算。如果今天原住民來一次、客家來一次、婦女來一次、勞動來一次、教師來一次、警察來一次，您認為政府承受得了嗎？我們都必須學習執政，將來有一天或許經過你的努力以後你會站在這個地方，你就知道國家不是這樣在經營的。如果不想執政的政黨，它也許可以這樣做，如果你也想執政，你就必須學習執政的經驗跟執政的過程。"],["廖委員先翔：我執政之後，可能上任的第一天就是要恪遵中華民國的憲法，遵守中華民國的法律，我講這個是行政部門最基本、最基本的責任。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，還有不浪費公帑。"],["廖委員先翔：當然不浪費公帑。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們對所有的預算都會錙銖必較。"],["廖委員先翔：所以原住民禁伐補償條例對院長來說是浪費公帑是不是？應該不是啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是違反國家財政紀律……"],["廖委員先翔：我想應該是口誤，院長應該不希望這個當新聞標題啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，違反國家財政紀律的編法，就是讓我們在這種狀況底下失衡整個預算的編列。"],["廖委員先翔：下一頁是我舉個例，補充一下剛剛的部分，交通部加速擴大吸引國際觀光客獎助辦法，境外獎勵每人5,000元，也明定金額，老農津貼也一樣明定金額，可能院長認為這個有經過行政院的同意，所以才能上路。"],["卓院長榮泰：當時都經過很好的協商，是立法院裡面的共識、兩院的共識。"],["廖委員先翔：立法院通過的東西要行政院同意啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員那時候不在這裡，不知道那個時候立法院的文化就是這樣子。"],["廖委員先翔：所以如果立法院通過委員提的法律案會增加行政院預算的話，可能都是不太恰當的，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是違反財政紀律，行政院編定……"],["廖委員先翔：立委提出增加國家預算的都違反紀律？"],["卓院長榮泰：我再強調一次，委員可以提一個法案希望行政院做哪些政策，但這個政策要如何執行，其計畫、預算都要行政院來編列，編列完、執行完之後，再接受委員的監督，這才是兩院的制衡、check and balance。"],["廖委員先翔：院長，我懂、我懂、我懂，但是我們的總統好像不這麼認為，民國97年3月14日國民年金法部分條文修正草案，提案人柯建銘、賴清德、葉宜津，針對第五十二條之一新增項目，這個是分娩生育給付特別規定，可能是在國民年金中生育的部分特別增加了一些預算，這個增加預算的部分就一定是國家要增編預算，在院長的眼裡，這個可能有點違反兩院院際的……"],["卓院長榮泰：後來有沒有通過？"],["廖委員先翔：下一案。"],["卓院長榮泰：請問委員，後來有沒有通過？"],["廖委員先翔：制定獎勵再生能源發電條例，這個提案人也非常多，藍綠都有，包括我們的賴清德總統，這個也是每度電收購多少元，也是要求國家增編預算來買電。"],["卓院長榮泰：後來有沒有通過？"],["廖委員先翔：再生能源條例現在不是被罵得很慘嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有沒有通過？"],["廖委員先翔：再生能源條例應該有，現在上路了吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：有沒有通過？"],["廖委員先翔：買電不就是用這個。"],["卓院長榮泰：那就是行政兩院協調的結果……"],["廖委員先翔：可是剛剛院長說，我們立法委員提的法律案如果會增加國家預算的話，這個東西可能就不太恰當。"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說要經過兩院的協調才可以。"],["廖委員先翔：但總統都一直在這麼做啊！下一張……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員經常斷了我一句話，這樣不好，這樣會造成大家的誤會。"],["廖委員先翔：這個金額更高！97年7月8日，當然這是民主進步黨立法院黨團提案的，但這時候可能我們的賴清德總統是黨團幹部，一樣有提案，可能那時候有一些金融風暴，希望政府增編一些經費，要政府擴大公共投資，經費上限583億元，其中也有一些個人的細項，包括本人4,000元，扶養親屬每人4,000元，也是有一個預算的規模跟一個單價的問題，但在院長的眼裡好像都不是那麼的恰當……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你這樣是故意……"],["廖委員先翔：如果要通過，都要行政院同意嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們這一代政治人物不要故意用這種方式來誤解大家，我沒有說立法院不能提這個案，而是提案的過程要經過立法院內部的協調、兩院的協調，這樣才能夠形成一個有效的法律來進行。"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，院長論述得也非常清楚了，現在就是有一點意見不一致的情況。下一張。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，你沒有聽到我……故意忽略我的重點。"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，我知道我們的立場有點不一樣，我都有聽到。"],["卓院長榮泰：你故意忽略我的重點，這樣很不好。"],["廖委員先翔：總預算僵局，賴總統目前神隱，除了在媒體上面發一些言、打打嘴炮嘴在野黨、用情緒勒索拿治水預算、社福預算綁架未依法編列預算之外，總統好像有一些正事沒做啦！中華民國憲法第四十四條規定，院與院之間的紛爭，除本憲法有規定外，得召集各院院長會商……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，情緒性的發言解決不了實質問題。"],["廖委員先翔：總統好像沒有做該做的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你這種情緒性的發言……"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員。","下一位請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 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署這樣的一個架構﹖他的一個綱領﹖他有八大計畫﹖他的右下角這邊有交通動員準備方案﹖然後有這個跟教育部比較有關的一些﹖精神動員﹖財力動員﹖等等之類的這一些動員的人﹖多少其實也是算﹖人力﹖但我不是很確定的事情就是﹖當我們在講這個40萬的時候﹖我們也把這個交通的﹖或者說今天跟這個科技動員的﹖可能速發的那些人有算進來﹖還是沒有算進來﹖"},{"start":332.942,"end":355.661,"text":"我跟委員補充一下第一個您現在所說的動員準備綱領這個部分應該是全民防衛動員就是全動法裡面那全動法的主政機關是國防部但是有一部分是內政部來配合的就有點像您剛所說你再問到有關科技的部分有關交通的部分有關衛生的部分那在於我們全社會防衛任性的話它就是屬於特種防護團"},{"start":356.522,"end":385.664,"text":"也就是我們常常在提到如果是關鍵基礎設施比如說可能是台電的電廠或是中油的油廠或者是中華電信等等這些單位那他們這些單位呢就要根據我們的需求提出專業的訓練成立特種防護團來做有關防護的工作那就是跟我跟剛剛跟您報告的一樣在平時的時候呢他就是維持他們自己本身的運作的正常然後跟外界要提供電提供油然後提供那個有關電信的溝通這個交通等等這個部分"},{"start":386.084,"end":386.284,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":401.53,"end":426.394,"text":"感謝因為現在目前來講這幾個的進度我是在各部會的時候去問說這個目前的進度到什麼地方那當然我會想知道說譬如說右上角這個部分因為是內政部主責其實40萬目前的計算比較多是還是在內政部這一個就右上角這一個部分那關於這個內政部因為在2023年的時候已經有開始在盤點民防人力然後接下來可能會有一些教育上的一些這個課程的一個改寫"},{"start":427.199,"end":441.506,"text":"還包含在最後一行這一個這邊可能有點擋到就是替代役的這一個人力的動員我去年我這還沒有進來立法院之前我有去幫替代役上過課所以呢但是這個上面這兩個目前的進度為何我可能之後在內政委員會的時候再來詢問部長"},{"start":442.706,"end":467.981,"text":"因為這個部分我覺得麻煩的地方是因為現在預算要編但因為預算編了之後有可能是比如說我們針對這個的訓練我們編大量的預算但也有可能我們不需要大量的預算它可能只是課程的變更因為原來的課程可能我們也知道可能有時候是跟這個民防沒有什麼太大的關係那如果是課程內容的修改它可能不一定需要那麼大的一個預算擺在那一邊所以關於這個細項我可能到內政委員會的時候再來詢問"},{"start":468.561,"end":468.741,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":491.626,"end":509.881,"text":"教育部退場機制以後給內政部納管我們會把大部分替代役訓練放在中州學院來幫忙處理這部分比較多會落在訓練跟教材的經費我想這也非常重要目前為止我們主要的功能大概分成兩個"},{"start":510.861,"end":534.51,"text":"致安維護組以及消防應變組這兩項才是目前我們臺灣社會上非常急需的部分所以未來不管是訓練也好或是教材也好或是一部分的設備我們都要希望透過114年的預算把它補充這樣子比較快速可以進入我們臺灣的全社會防衛任性裡面也協助現在的警消或者一警一消做一部分的工作上面的支援"},{"start":535.51,"end":552.064,"text":"謝謝部長因為我認為這個訓練跟教材的這個改變很重要那希望錢能夠花在島口上那接下來我想問一下就是第二個問題這可能最主要是要問院長了就是中國威脅的問題那這邊呢中國威脅呢這個我在這一個最近我們針對中國的威脅把它分成幾個主要的面向"},{"start":552.965,"end":575.614,"text":"包含軍事威脅﹚社會上的滲透﹚輿論的影響﹚左上角所謂的經濟的影響﹚政治整入的滲透﹚還包含法律戰﹚外交戰等等之類的在這邊我發現在台灣的法規在盤點的時候我們發現我們對於經濟安保這個部分經濟安全這個部分保護的是稍微比較少一點我們經濟部隊產業當然也是比較保護"},{"start":578.515,"end":597.543,"text":"2019 年日本已經從經濟安保法有一系列法律不斷通過這部分對於中國有關的滲透應對不一定那麼得當我先從幾個小例子開始這個例子其實非常的小這個例子是有人在網路上分享他是說他這個新兵要去當兵的路上"},{"start":598.503,"end":626.532,"text":"結果呢 這個 看到這個遊覽車上面在放這個解放軍啊 裡面說為共產主義奮鬥終生那我們去稍微想了一下就是說這件事情它到底可能會怎麼發生第一個 它如果是國防部直接包的車發生那當然我們要問國防部說它在包車的時候它到底是有沒有去注意這件事情但它也有可能只是單純 譬如說新兵他們自己有輔委然後輔委自己去找了遊覽車然後遊覽車來載他們然後可能是要往來這一個高鐵站"},{"start":627.412,"end":657.21,"text":"但也有可能是地方政府的民政局可能兵役科他們在新兵入伍的時候地方政府本來就會有專車然後帶他們到特定的地點所以它可能會地方政府的事也有可能是府委自己的事也有可能是國防部的事但我在這邊想要問的就是說因為這件事情它非常非常的細我們以往的譬如說按照我們新的自動安全管理法我們都會去講說中國的產品我們不能用啊什麼等等之類有資安威脅的啊但是跟中國製的產品也沒有什麼關係雖然它也是個產品它就只是個影片"},{"start":657.39,"end":657.41,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":686.135,"end":705.412,"text":"報告委員經濟安全已經是總統在和平四大支柱裡面的一項當然就是現在國家會積極的來維護國家安全重要的一環那很多的威脅有形的無形的我覺得無形的威脅文化上的威脅更是每天每時在進行的"},{"start":706.144,"end":727.276,"text":"像剛剛委員所提到這個案例我們知道他是在9月23號臺中市政府在載送一些經典朋友們這個義南的一個車輛上面現在的說明是說司機自行但是我是認為這個就是一個警覺心跟習慣性的問題剛剛委員也非常的清楚說我們又有法律的嚴肅的這個看這個問題也許"},{"start":729.718,"end":729.858,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":742.972,"end":768.397,"text":"我每希望說未來跟民間在訂定契約的時候對於這種行為人的行為注意的太陽我們可以在契約之外的精神或契約裡面的適合的文字來做一些說明而不是用直接的裁判我想我們可以繼續這樣的努力但是總之這種努力是全面但是總還會有一些漏洞中央跟地方要合力來填補這些漏洞才能完全執行"},{"start":771.086,"end":787.231,"text":"這個案例是臺中市政府的兵役徵集就我們所知道他大概是用外面的遊覽車把服兵役的年輕人送到軍營裡面去所以國防部還沒有接收的時候是前半截是臺中市政府的兵役徵集"},{"start":788.651,"end":788.952,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":805.933,"end":824.785,"text":"謝謝那因為呢對我來講就是說呢他不一定是對方惡意一定要做什麼滲透的問題但一旦是我們在契約上面或者說我們並沒有去規範的時候他本來就有這個空間可以去做但是剛剛院長跟部長都有提到他是地方政府那地方政府來做這件事情的時候我們有時候根本就沒有辦法管到地方政府他要怎麼做"},{"start":825.485,"end":826.285,"text":"在今年大概3月質詢的時候就有提到"},{"start":841.553,"end":858.892,"text":"那時候剛好也是在跟這個海委會在質詢的過程提到說他們可能在觀光方面可能在產業方面故意繞過我們的中央政府去跟地方談那等於用共產黨典型的模式用地方來包圍中央你今天中央不跟我好我地方來跟我好"},{"start":859.172,"end":860.653,"text":"臺灣的民意代表及相關業者主動繞開民進黨政府和中國直接交流"},{"start":884.302,"end":913.051,"text":"這下面這一段呢中國與金門開始積極尋找新的合作點來想辦法規避民進黨帶來的兩岸關係的不穩定因素啦那再來呢就是呢這個之前的陸委會其實已經提過了說照理說如果今天兩岸條例第5條的規範涉及公權力的事項沒有經過授權是不能夠簽署任何相關的協議嗎什麼等等之類的但因為中國在國外現在做的方式很多譬如說他們之前呢我先把報告台的案例譬如說之前就發生過美國特定的州他就直接在討論說"},{"start":913.911,"end":914.591,"text":"關於兩岸事務都是中央的職權"},{"start":968.373,"end":975.998,"text":"好,謝謝沈委員好,謝謝卓院長下一位請廖先生"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:16:45 - 09:33:02","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155243","gazette":{"lineno":57,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時17分）謝謝副院長，有請卓院長和劉部長，謝謝。"],["主席：卓院長還有劉部長，兩位請。"],["卓院長榮泰：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：院長好。我今天的問題大概只有兩個，因為我想總質詢的時間並沒有很多，所以就問幾個大方向。","第一個題目跟內政部比較有關，所以可能會請世芳部長來回答，第二個問題跟部會的協調比較有關，所以可能會請院長回答。","第一個問題是，因為新聞的關係，我們都可以一直看到總統府已經召開了全社會防衛靭性委員會的第一次會議，其中有一個所謂的「40萬民力」一直被強調，我昨天在外交及國防委員會，其實也有非常多委員來造謠，就是對於這個40萬民力的解釋跟我們心目中講的不太一樣。他們不斷提到這是民兵，又或者說是不是要上戰場等等之類的論述，但是我們先不管這方面的謠言到底長什麼樣子，因為畢竟媒體鋪天蓋地的報導其實非常誤導。","我總覺得這邊有幾個細項想問一下，第一個就是大概在2022年左右，我們的管主委當時也是立法委員，其實他那時候在質詢時有提到，他說這個民力的部分當時是51萬，結果現在降到47萬，也就是民力有減少。所以也就是說，當我們講到40萬這個民防人力的時候，看起來好像是比過往的人更減少了。我不知道是現在的計算標準不一樣了，還是我們的民防人力的確有減少的狀況？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝沈委員的關心，也非常清楚，總統府所召開的全社會防衛靭性委員會會議一共有五大分組，內政部所負責的是屬於可恃民力這一組，所以在內政部的管轄內，我們一定要根據法律上的授權。我們現在所根據的法律授權來自於民防法、災害防救法和替代役管理條例，如果再延伸的話，可以跟警察法、消防法一起來折算。按照這樣子的方式，包括民防民力整編的部分落在警消為主，所以我們算出來，基本上再加上一部分是屬於志願團體像志工團體這一些，我們志工團體所酌算的比較不多，也就是說，他如果平常只有上課2小時、4小時，我們都沒有把他算在內，所以真正折算出來大概是落在40萬到41萬左右，這是我們很正確的一個說法，提供給沈委員參考。"],["沈委員伯洋：確實可能反而是人力上的減少。剛剛部長有提到法規，其實我覺得法規還是最重要的，畢竟法規本身就有規定有多少，或者是什麼樣的編組在這個民防體系裡面。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以我這邊有整理中央主管機關最主要有這四種民防的防護團，以及它的架構圖、裡面的人數，這個下面全部都是民防團隊編組訓練演習服勤及支援軍事勤務辦法，這個是第九條，這個是第十七條、第十八條、第十九條，這個是第二十一條。其實這都是非常清楚的事情，所以我不是很清楚為什麼不管是在媒體上面，或者我們有些立法委員一直沒有去看法條，所以他們根本完全不知道這個民防人力到底在哪裡。"],["劉部長世芳：是，報告沈委員，我相信很多人大概有點斷章取義，根據民防法或是根據全社會防衛韌性裡面所標示的，最重要的一件事情就是維持我們臺灣的社會穩定，也就是我們這麼多民力的部分，維持臺灣的社會穩定，或是轄下包括衛福、交通或者是經濟、農業等等，臺灣社會的穩定是我們目前最需要做的任務編組，尤其我們知道天災才是目前臺灣所面對到的最大一個挑戰，維持臺灣社會穩定，還有維持政府的正常運作，第三個是支援軍事勤務，這些都在我們通過多年的民防法裡面第二條寫得非常的清楚。所以內政部是按照民防法裡面的規範，一步一步往前推進的。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。但是在這邊我有一個比較小的問題，因為這是剛剛講的在目前的民防法，還有民防團隊編組的訓練、演習相關條例所規定的內容，剛剛部長也有提到，但這一個圖是我上一次在總質詢的時候，有問院長的，這個圖是我根據全動署的網站把它畫出來的，當然內政部最主要是負責右上角那個部分，就剛剛有提到民防人力、消防人力、替代役等等之類的。我這邊想要確定一件事情，因為按照全動署這樣的架構及綱領，它有八大計畫，右下角這邊有交通動員準備方案，有跟教育部比較有關的一些精神動員、財力動員等等之類的，這一些動員的人多少其實也是算人力，但我不是很確定的事情就是當我們在講這一個40萬的時候，我們有把交通的人力，或者今天跟科技動員的，可能是數發的那些人，有算進來還是沒有算進來？"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員補充一下，第一個，你現在所說的動員準備綱領這個部分應該是全民防衛動員，就是全動法裡面，全動法的主政機關是國防部，但是有一部分是內政部來配合的，就有點像您剛所說，您問到有關科技的部分、有關交通的部分、有關衛生的部分，在於我們全社會防衛韌性的話，它就是屬於特種防護團，也就是我們常常提到如果是關鍵基礎設施，譬如可能是台電的電廠，或是中油的油廠，或者是中華電信等等這些單位，他們這些單位就要根據我們的需求提出專業的訓練，成立特種防護團來做有關防護的工作，就跟我剛剛跟您報告的一樣，在平時的時候，他們就是維持他們自己本身運作的正常，跟外界要提供電、提供油，然後提供有關電信的溝通或是交通等等這個部分，但是如果碰到有些大規模的損害，或是其他所謂軍事上面的部分，特種防護團就需要結合有關兵力或是有關民防裡面組成不同的三軌或是兩軌的機制來共同防禦外侮。"],["沈委員伯洋：感謝，因為目前來講，這幾個的進度，我是詢問各部會目前的進度到什麼地方，當然我會想知道譬如右上角這個部分，因為是內政部主責，其實40萬目前的計算比較多還是在內政部，就是右上角這一個部分，因為在2023年的時候，內政部已經有開始在盤點民防人力，接下來可能會有教育上一些課程的改寫，還包含在最後一行，就是替代役人力的動員，去年我在還沒有進來立法院之前，我有去幫替代役上過課，但是上面這兩個目前的進度為何？我可能之後在內政委員會的時候，再來詢問部長，因為這個部分，我覺得麻煩的地方是因為現在預算要編，但因為預算編了之後，有可能是我們針對這個訓練編大量的預算，但也有可能我們不需要大量的預算，它可能只是課程的變更，因為原來的課程，我們也知道可能有時候是跟民防沒有什麼太大的關係，如果是課程內容的修改，它可能不一定需要那麼大的一個預算擺在那一邊，所以關於這個細項，我可能到內政委員會的時候，再來詢問部長。"],["劉部長世芳：不過我這邊補充一下，有關於替代役的部分，大概分成現役跟備役，有關現役跟備役的部分，我們在檢討之後，發現現在的課程其實有需要精進的地方，所以也非常謝謝行政院，他們願意動用一部分的經費，讓我們在做訓練上面的加強，這一部分也許我們未來在譬如說中州，那個是從教育部退場機制以後給內政部來納管的，我們會把大部分替代役的訓練放在中州學院來幫忙處理，這一部分大概比較多會落在訓練的經費上面，訓練跟教材的經費，我想這個也非常的重要。目前為止我們主要的功能大概分成兩個，大概就是治安維護組以及消防應變組，這兩項才是目前我們臺灣社會上非常急需的部分，所以未來不管是訓練也好，或是教材也好，或是一部分的設備，我們都希望透過114年的預算把它補充，這樣子比較快速可以進入我們臺灣的全社會防衛韌性裡面，也協助現在的警消或者義警、義消做一部分工作上面的支援。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，因為我認為這個訓練跟教材的改變很重要，希望錢能夠花在刀口上。接下來我想問一下第二個問題，這可能最主要是要問院長，就是中國威脅的問題，最近我們針對中國的威脅，把它分成幾個主要的面向，包含軍事的威脅、社會上的一些滲透、輿論的影響，左上角這邊是所謂經濟的影響、政治的滲透，還包含法律戰、外交戰等等之類的。我發現臺灣的法規在盤點的時候，我們對於經濟安保、經濟安全這個部分，保護的是稍微比較少一點，那我們經濟部對產業當然也是比較保護，像2019年日本大概就已經從經濟安保法開始有一系列的法律不斷地通過，這個部分我們對於中國有關的滲透可能應對的不一定那麼得當。","我先從幾個小例子開始，這個例子其實非常的小，這個例子是有人在網路上分享，他是說新兵要去當兵的路上，結果看到遊覽車上面在放解放軍裡面的「為共產主義奮鬥終身」，我們稍微想了一下這件事情它到底可能會怎麼發生，第一個，它如果是國防部直接包的車發生，那當然我們要問國防部說，他在包車的時候，他到底有沒有去注意這件事情，但他也有可能只是單純，譬如說新兵他們自己有輔委，然後輔委自己去找了遊覽車，然後遊覽車來載他們，可能是要往來高鐵站，但也有可能是地方政府的民政局，可能兵役科，他們在新兵入伍的時候，地方政府本來就會有專車，然後帶他們到特定的地點，所以它可能會是地方政府的事，也有可能是輔委自己的事，也有可能是國防部的事。但我在這邊想要問的就是說，因為這件事情它非常非常的細，以往譬如說按照我們新的資通安全管理法，我們都會去講說中國的產品我們不能用什麼等等之類，會有資安威脅，但是這個跟中國製的產品也沒有什麼關係，雖然它也是個產品，它就只是個影片而已，如果我們直接用法律，立法院這邊立一個法，在法律上直接去規範說你的影片可能要播什麼，我覺得這個也是過分了，所以我就一直在想說行政院這一邊，在各個不同的契約，就是當我們今天不管是有標案，還是有跟任何外部團體簽約的時候，在約定的條款裡面，到底有沒有可能去防堵這一類的事情發生？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，經濟安全已經是總統在和平四大支柱裡面的一項，當然就是現在國家會積極地來維護國家安全重要的一環，那很多的威脅，有形的、無形的，我覺得無形的威脅、文化上的威脅更是每天每時在進行。像剛剛委員所提到的這個案例，我們知道它是在9月23號，臺中市政府在載送一些青年朋友們、役男的一個車輛上面，現在的說明是說司機自行，但是我認為這個就是一個警覺心跟習慣性的問題。剛剛委員也非常清楚的說，我們用法律來嚴肅看這個問題，也許還沒有辦法來執行，但是我們在各種跟民間的契約合作當中，比如說採購，我們一定會要求不能是來自中國的任何產品，不只是資安的問題而已，還會有很大的問題。我們也希望未來跟民間在訂定契約的時候，對於這種行為人的行為注意的態樣，我們可以在契約之外的精神或契約裡面以適合的文字來做一些說明，而不是用直接的裁罰，我想我們可以繼續這樣努力。總之這種努力是全面，但是總還會有一些漏洞，中央跟地方要合力來填補這些漏洞，才能完全執行。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝院長，那這個……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這個案例是臺中市政府的兵役徵集，就我們所知道，他大概是用外面的遊覽車把服兵役的年輕人送到軍營裡面去，所以國防部還沒有接收的時候，前半截是臺中市政府兵役徵集產生的一些誤導的部分，我們現在已經請地方政府在處理有關兵役徵集時要特別注意這個部分，同時沈委員也非常關心這會不會有可能是有一點滲透，我們會再從中瞭解到底是怎麼一回事。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。因為對我來講，它不一定是對方惡意一定要做什麼滲透的問題，但一旦我們在契約上面並沒有去規範的時候，它本來就有這個空間可以去做。但是剛剛院長跟部長都有提到它是地方政府，地方政府在做這件事情的時候，我們根本就沒有辦法管到地方政府要怎麼做，所以這邊我覺得有一點疑慮，我們現在常常會遇到，譬如說金門模式，這個在英文上，外國學者很喜歡討論的叫sub-national policy。譬如說我在今年大概3月質詢的時候就有提到，那時候剛好也是跟海委會質詢的過程，他們可能在觀光方面、產業方面故意繞過我們的中央政府去跟地方談，等於就是用共產黨典型的模式，用地方包圍中央，你今天中央不跟我好，就找地方來跟我好，只要地方來跟我好了之後，我就可以告訴全國的民眾說，你看這個地方現在多繁榮，它願意跟中國談。","所以我稍微去盤點了一下，這個在央視旗下的「玉淵譚天」，這是他們非常有名的一個類似社論的方向，他們的研究提到「臺灣民意代表及相關從業者主動繞開民進黨政府，和中國直接交流」，它直接明擺著說我們要這樣做。下面這一段又指出「大陸與金門開始積極尋找新的合作點，來想辦法規避民進黨當局帶來的兩岸關係不穩定因素」。","再來就是陸委會之前已經提過的，照理說，如果今天兩岸條例第五條的規範是涉及公權力事項，倘若未獲政府授權，不得簽署任何相關協議等等之類的，但因為中國在國外現在做的方式很多，我先繞開臺海的案例，譬如說之前在美國特定的州就發生過，他們直接討論到這個州要不要直接把中國的國慶也訂為該州的假日，如果臺灣發生這樣的事情，我們該怎麼辦？也就是說有愈來愈多的事情都涉及到中國這種統戰公權力的行使，地方政府去答應說是我們自己來談就好了，但按照陸委會之前的說法這個是不存續的，但是它如果真的做了我們該怎麼辦？"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，有關兩岸的事務都是中央的職權，相關協議的落實都在中央政府。對於金門模式可能帶來對金門地方政府過度依賴中國大陸，我們都會跟地方政府去示警，這對未來的產業都是有危害的。"],["沈委員伯洋：我認為違反這個可能要有相關的法制，我現在在研擬這些，所以希望到最後也有院版，或者我們跟陸委會的法制處來做一些相關的……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，行政院跟陸委會都會很重視這個問題，謝謝。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137701_00007"}}},{"date":"2024-10-08","影片長度":"00:15:53","end_time":"2024-10-08T09:16:40+08:00","type":"Clip","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155242","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","duration":953,"start_time":"2024-10-08T09:00:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/390522a1d83d95e67323d1233611dc2d0d4fddf3c76ddd415947056b2ea1354b61cd8283283c7cb85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.945343750000001,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.53784375,"end":25.512218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.06034375,"end":29.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.70971875,"end":31.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.07659375,"end":40.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.446593750000005,"end":42.471593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.70784375,"end":47.196593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.77034375,"end":53.085968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.862218750000004,"end":62.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.008468750000006,"end":63.329093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.632843750000006,"end":68.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.12971875000001,"end":70.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.63159375000001,"end":77.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.36909375,"end":78.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.73034375,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.26596875,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.58096875000001,"end":100.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.96909375,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.74096875000001,"end":102.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.12034375,"end":104.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.26346875,"end":106.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.08596875,"end":110.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.15721875000001,"end":111.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.04721875000001,"end":113.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.90346875,"end":114.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.35471875,"end":118.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.78034375000001,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.29471875,"end":125.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.26034375,"end":130.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.20034375,"end":133.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.37721875,"end":185.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.95971875,"end":205.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.98596875,"end":222.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.38846875000002,"end":224.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.97034375,"end":227.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.13034375,"end":229.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.93596875,"end":231.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.48409375000003,"end":234.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.11659375000002,"end":238.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.35659375,"end":240.07784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.38159375,"end":243.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.68909375,"end":245.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.08534375000002,"end":252.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.93659375000001,"end":262.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.55534375,"end":264.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.93471875,"end":268.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.00596875,"end":273.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.55784375,"end":276.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.40971875,"end":281.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.82659375000003,"end":285.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.50534375,"end":288.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.69471875,"end":296.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.98034375000003,"end":309.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.83909375,"end":313.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.97346875,"end":316.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.12909375000004,"end":322.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.55846875000003,"end":331.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.76409375000003,"end":332.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.04659375,"end":367.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":367.77096875,"end":374.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.02284375000005,"end":378.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.57096875,"end":407.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.57471875000005,"end":434.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":434.44409375000004,"end":439.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439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邱志偉"},{"start":55.749,"end":75.458,"text":"昨天我去經濟委員會質詢的時候﹖秋智偉當任會議主持﹖直接叫麥玉珍上臺作為主持的﹖主持會議的格調﹖真的高下立判了接下來我要邀請我們的卓院長上來質詢謝謝"},{"start":87.902,"end":102.459,"text":"麥委員好卓院長好請教一下我們卓院長不在籍投票的態度如何不在籍投票當然要讓每個國民能夠行使"},{"start":103.191,"end":130.422,"text":"政治的權利公民的權利應該廣泛的來討論實施的可能但應該要克服的是很多技術上現在存在的一些困難如果我們能夠克服技術上的困難也克服政治上的障礙我認為可以往前去做更多的思考好就以你的計畫我們共同去努力來去克服但是技術上跟政治上的障礙還是蠻多的但是我們要努力來想想有沒有好的方法"},{"start":132.017,"end":148.464,"text":"謝謝 謝謝我們卓院長一正在3個會期以在野黨就是強力推動下好不容易通過了新住民基本法也落實柯文哲對新住民的承諾唯一"},{"start":149.544,"end":169.733,"text":"美中不足的地方就是只有專職中央三級行政機關當初我們陳建源院長一句話三級機關已滿不把賴總統的政見當一回事我也委曲求全爭取到了中央三級機關"},{"start":171.573,"end":188.981,"text":"內政部長劉世芳部長也說三期機關已經滿了但是很幸運這一屆我們的卓院長很有魄力商任馬上就把體育署升格為體育部"},{"start":190.071,"end":205.185,"text":"所以根本就不會有不滿的存在所以請教一下我們也所以要請劉部長不要再打假球了也拜託我們的卓院長"},{"start":207.065,"end":208.746,"text":"首先向委員報告體育署升格"},{"start":228.551,"end":245.131,"text":"這個不是這樣的講法這是一個全新的體育部體育部不是由體育署來升格的所以它是一個完全新概念新組織新的政策新的策略新的面對國人的一個全新的體育部所以體育署並沒有升格的問題"},{"start":246.132,"end":266.699,"text":"那體育部 如果大院同意我們在組織調整之後 體育部將來成立之後 還有很多學校教育的體育工作還是要有專責的機關來做 那現在這個部分我們還在討論當中那至於新住民的這個組織的權益 那麼請部長來說明"},{"start":268.921,"end":296.662,"text":"謝謝麥委員的關心我想我完全沒有打假球我們在好幾次的這個對談當中都有跟麥委員報告我們根據行政院的組織架構跟中央行政機關基準法的檢討方向確實沒有錯現在署的這樣子的一個成績已經有達到70個上限所以我們必須要等這個上限通出來之後馬上可以填補進去成立我們的新住民的這個發展署"},{"start":297.142,"end":321.888,"text":"那這個不管是行政院的政務委員：或者是我們現在在處理這個有關於未來的新住民的發展方向我們的常務次長吳唐安他們都兩兜里內都是進行在處理未來有關新住民發展署的一個整個的方向而且我們分成6個重要的這個任務指標包括原額架構或是未來的發展等等都有包含在內跟麥委員做報告"},{"start":324.635,"end":349.226,"text":"好謝謝所以說我們不是升格是直接成立對不對全新的體育部對所以這個我們大家都認同大家也希望說這個部就是即將要成立是最好的所以跟滿的滿編還有滿也沒有什麼差別我的意思就是說要不要做而已"},{"start":350.006,"end":371.755,"text":"所以在我們的奧運過後我們卓院長就是指示下就是要中央行政機關組織基本法可見當初不是滿編可以去修改所以而不是政府我的用意就是重不重視要不要做這個問題所以說我們"},{"start":376.349,"end":388.739,"text":"賴清德總統在選舉的時候提出照顧新住民五大政見這個是其中之一而已所以我們成立一個專職機構也是總統府我們總統的政見"},{"start":393.522,"end":394.163,"text":"主推五大政見"},{"start":408.652,"end":437.037,"text":"成立新住民發展署因為呢我當一天立委我一直盯著這個五大政見我們賴總統就是要跟我們承諾一定要做到沒有的話我每天就會盯著我們就會盯著這件事情希望他的五大政見我們卓院長你要重視也要說執行我們賴總統的政見這個就是要請院長要"},{"start":437.813,"end":443.775,"text":"總統在選舉期間提出的政見都會是現在政府必須全面檢視要推動的國家政策之一"},{"start":461.957,"end":481.511,"text":"那當然國家政策的推動他雖然全面的檢視他的執行跟實施也是要循序漸進那現在這個都已經那剛剛部長已經說明清楚了都有計畫但什麼時候能夠去實現這樣的一個政策也跟委員想像的過程一樣那這個還要做一些努力我剛剛說過"},{"start":482.732,"end":509.77,"text":"體育部升格之後還有很多的體育的教育跟學校相關的設施的維護跟設施的建設都必須要有現在的單位來做處理我們現在思考如何維持現在教育部的工作及未來體育及運動發展部的工作這兩者之間要如何做一個很清楚的界面同時要有相當多的互相的跨部會的配合這個部分還在處理當中所以現在我們在中央組織基礎部"},{"start":510.845,"end":511.686,"text":"新住民專責機關的處理已經有他的構想循序漸進推動"},{"start":528.8,"end":530.021,"text":"金管會統計在8月29號到9月4號每日平均我們的民眾被詐騙4億1千"},{"start":561.569,"end":574.144,"text":"513萬元 行政院在5月9號也通過打炸新市法說要完善打炸防護網 使打炸更有成效 讓人民的財產"},{"start":575.606,"end":602.274,"text":"保護的最有保障請問的成效在哪裡但是呢我們在10月3號全國放颱風架但是呢全國放颱風架我們是被詐騙只有2億這個代表什麼原因我們警政署有沒有去調查原因放颱風架是全國應用網路的是最高峰的"},{"start":602.734,"end":616.27,"text":"所以詐騙集團就會減少了2億這個什麼原因我們是不是要去調查要去怎麼樣去讓我們的詐騙減少這個才是我們要想要了解的"},{"start":616.803,"end":639.589,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心詐騙的事情日前也有委員在關心隨行過這個詐騙的數字那內政部劉部長他有非常詳實的數字的說明報告我請部長來說明是 謝謝麥委員的關心委員都非常清楚打詐是法在立法院朝野政黨的努力之下我們在7月底公佈出去以後"},{"start":640.79,"end":655.522,"text":"打詐新釋法對於我們在處理打詐其實成效非常的多您現在引用的數據是8月份跟7月份的比較但是如果你用打詐儀表版每天所發生的打詐的受理次數跟受理的財損數的話你會發現它是在下降的"},{"start":658.884,"end":686.489,"text":"當然你剛有提到說在颱風天颱風天大家都在家裡面用比較多的網路這個網路的部分我們跟數位發展部也好或是跟我們的金管會都會互相結合會推出比較好的執法譬如說網路的平台業者要怎麼樣規範他如果他有收受跟這些違法的網路平台業者的廣告的時候嚴格來講他必須要接受比較大的懲罰或者甚至要下架的處分"},{"start":688.109,"end":709.754,"text":"指正我們的部會警政署要怎麼樣去做這個部分我們都是有規劃有一個規則但是我在關心的是說我們警政署在2016年有成立打詐中心2022年也有成立就是我們的打詐國家隊"},{"start":712.015,"end":739.916,"text":"2023年我們也成立打架的辦公室還有今年也成立瓜布會的打架中心所以我們就是一直在做打架越打越架所以就希望說我們要用好的方式我們要研議要研究說為什麼疫情的時間我們是減少了不是說我們5月份成立我們就8月份一天就被騙那麼多"},{"start":740.737,"end":740.877,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":755.717,"end":783.518,"text":"而那個政績也預算也內容也沒有改部門也改也回頭這樣子的2億的數據跑到哪裡去還有我們行政院目前提出來的就是新世代打詐詐欺涉獵行動網01.5版根本沒有顯示效果真是真是沒有好的落實但是呢現在打詐網又說2點"},{"start":787.559,"end":800.094,"text":"2.0何時可以出爐就是我們一直改變但是詐騙越來越多所以我們就是要演繹要如何做更好才能保護我們人民不要被詐騙"},{"start":801.395,"end":824.507,"text":"跟委員補充報告一下在2023年之前我們警政署在計算有關於打炸的這個案件數的時候是一案就算一件但是現在我們的方式是一案如果涉及多人的話就變成是多件也就是計算的標準不一樣所以你會看到好像數目是增加非常的多再來給我們詳細的資料"},{"start":826.508,"end":854.971,"text":"我現在就是要跟您解釋一下然後最重要就是我們打詐新審法我想要請問第3個就是消因為時間有限因為警消人力的缺口他們也一直希望我們來協助就是何時可以補齊就關於就是我們各種樣式的專案如就是掃黑、機槍、機毒、打架、交通安全的執法專案還有一些就是我們的"},{"start":857.183,"end":876.558,"text":"我們要在消防裡面的需要的人員還有我們的工具這些的話都不足現在就是我們的人口比例我們消防人一人就要服務1300人這樣子的人員不足造成我們消防人員的"},{"start":879.226,"end":881.248,"text":"好 我謝謝我們的部長再來書面可以給我"},{"start":908.709,"end":937.228,"text":"最後因為我時間有限所以我就是最後我在這邊呼應我們的執政黨不管我們來自哪裡在什麼領地我們永遠都是媽媽心目中的寶貝每一個人的生命財產都是很重要如果我們要對別人說我們要全力捍衛中華民國首先請提出"},{"start":937.828,"end":938.989,"text":"好,謝謝麥委員,謝謝卓院長下一位請沈柏楊委員"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"term":11,"id":"院會-11-2-3","title":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議","type":"院會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:00:47 - 09:16:40","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","id":"155242","gazette":{"lineno":18,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時1分）我看到副院長，太緊張了！"],["主席：放輕鬆、沒關係。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝副院長。我們的副院長主持會議和我們的韓院長主持會議都會稱呼我們是委員，這就是我們院長跟副院長主持會議的風範，和昨天我去經濟委員會的民進黨召委邱志偉完全不同，昨天我去經濟委員會質詢的時候，邱志偉擔任會議主席，直接叫麥玉珍上臺，他身為主席，主持會議的格調真的是高下立判。","好，接下來我要邀請我們的卓院長上來備詢，謝謝。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：卓院長好，請教一下卓院長對不在籍投票的態度如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：關於不在籍投票，當然要讓每個國民能夠行使政治的權利、公民的權利，應該廣泛的來討論實施的可能，但是應該要克服的是很多技術上現在存在的一些困難，如果我們能夠克服技術上的困難，也克服政治上的障礙，我認為可以往前去做更多的思考。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，就以你的計畫，我們共同去努力並克服。"],["卓院長榮泰：在技術上跟政治上的障礙還是蠻多的，但是我們要努力來想想有沒有好的方法。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝卓院長。玉珍在上個會期與在野黨強力推動下，好不容易通過了新住民基本法，也落實柯文哲對新住民的承諾，唯一美中不足的地方就是沒有專責的中央三級行政機關。當初我們陳建仁院長講一句話：二級機關已滿，不把賴總統的政見當一回事，我也委曲求全，要爭取中央三級機關，內政部的劉世芳部長也說三級機關已經滿了，但是很幸運的是在這一屆我們的卓院長很有魄力，一上任就馬上把體育署升格為體育部，根本就不會有那個已經滿了的問題，所以要請劉部長不要再打假球，也拜託卓院長是不是同步讓我們的新住民跟體育署升格為體育部一樣，我們新住民也是要升格為署，是不是也可以這樣實施？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先向委員報告，委員說體育署升格，這個並不是這樣的講法，這是一個全新的體育部，體育部不是由體育署來升格的，所以它是一個完全新的概念、新的組織、新的政策、新的策略，是面對國人的一個全新的體育部，所以體育署並沒有升格的問題。如果大院同意，我們在組織調整、體育部將來成立之後，還有很多學校教育的體育工作，還是要有專責的機關來做，現在這個部分我們還在討論當中，至於新住民的組織權益，請部長來說明一下。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝麥委員的關心。我想我完全沒有打假球，我們在好幾次的對談當中都有跟麥委員報告，我們根據行政院的組織架構，跟中央行政機關組織基準法的檢討方向，確實沒有錯，現在署這樣的層級已經有達到70個上限，所以我們必須要等這個上限空出來之後，馬上可以填補進去，成立我們的新住民發展署。不管是行政院的政務委員，或者是我們現在在處理有關於未來新住民的發展方向，我們的常務次長吳堂安，他們都在處理未來有關新住民發展署的整個方向，而且我們分成6個重要的任務指標，包括員額架構或是未來的發展等等都有包含在內，跟麥委員做報告。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝。所以我們不是升格，而是直接成立，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：全新的體育部。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，這個我們大家都認同，大家也希望這個部即將要成立是最好的，所以跟有沒有滿編沒有什麼差別，我的意思就是說要不要做而已，在奧運過後，在卓院長的指示下，就是要中央行政機關組織基準法，可見當初不是滿編，可以去修改，而不是政府……我的意思就是重不重視、要不要做的問題。","賴清德總統在選舉的時候有提出照顧新住民五大政見，這個是其中之一而已，所以我們成立一個專責機構也是總統的政見，我們希望他對新住民的承諾也不是詐騙的，不要騙我們新住民的感情，我們是主推這個五大政見的其中之一，希望未來真的去成立新住民發展署，我當一天立委，我會一直盯著這個五大政見，賴總統對我們的承諾一定要做到，沒有的話我每天就會盯著，我們就會盯著這件事情，希望他的五大政見卓院長要重視，也要執行賴總統的政見。我們的新住民基本法就是要行政院實施才能實行，所以我們希望院長什麼時候可以實施，這個我們很期待。"],["卓院長榮泰：總統在選舉期間提出的政見，都會是現在政府必須全面檢視要推動的國家政策之一，當然國家政策的推動雖然做全面的檢視，但是它的執行跟實施也是要循序漸進，剛剛部長已經說明清楚了，現在這個都有計畫，但什麼時候能夠去實現這樣的一個政策？其實也跟委員想像的過程一樣，這個還要做一些努力。我剛剛說過，體育部升格之後還有很多體育的教育、學校相關設施的維護跟設施的建設，都必須要有現在的單位來做處理，我們正在思考如何維持現在教育部的工作以及未來體育及運動發展部的工作，這兩者之間要如何做一個很清楚的介面，同時要有相當多的、互相的、跨部會的配合，這個部分還在處理當中，所以現在我們在中央組織基準法裡面，希望就體育部的成立能單純化，聚焦在這個上面，其他的問題我們現在還沒有進行到這個討論，但是內政部就新住民的專責機構、機關的一個處理，已經有它的構想，這個我們會循序漸進地來推動。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，所以就是不能大小眼，不能說只管其他的問題，你就沒有在意這樣子的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，我就當作卓院長答應我們要去執行。第二題，我想要請教一下，金管會統計在8月29號到9月4號，我們的民眾平均每日被詐騙4億1,513萬元，行政院在5月9號也通過打詐新四法，說要完善打詐防護網，使打詐更有成效，讓人民的財產有保障，請問成效在哪裡？我們在10月3號全國放颱風假，但是全國放颱風假，我們被詐騙的金額只有2億，這個代表什麼原因？我們警政署有沒有去調查原因？放颱風假是全國運用網路最高峰的時候，所以詐騙集團就減少了2億，這個是什麼原因？我們是不是要去調查怎麼樣讓我們的詐騙減少？這個才是我們想要了解的！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員關心詐騙的事情，日前也有委員在關心垂詢過詐騙的數字，內政部劉部長有非常詳實的數字說明報告，我請部長來說明。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝麥委員的關心。委員都非常清楚，打詐四法在立法院朝野政黨的努力之下，我們在7月底公布出去以後，打詐新四法對於我們在處理打詐，其實成效非常多，您現在引用的數據是8月份跟7月份的比較，但是如果您用打詐儀錶板每天所發生的打詐受理次數跟受理的財損數的話，你會發現它是在下降的。當然你剛剛有提到在颱風天的狀況，颱風天大家都在家裡面用比較多的網路，針對網路的部分，我們跟數位發展部也好或是跟我們的金管會，都會互相結合，會推出比較好的子法，譬如說，網路的平台業者要怎麼樣規範他，如果他有收受這些違法的網路平台業者廣告的時候，嚴格來講，他必須要接受比較大的懲罰，或者甚至要下架的處分，這個必須要等數發部把子法公告出去會比較好處理。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個就是執政的部會警政署要怎麼樣去做，這個部分都是有規劃、有一個規則。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我在關心的是警政署在2016年有成立打詐中心，2022年也有成立打詐國家隊，2023年也成立打詐辦公室，還有今年也成立跨部會的打詐中心，所以我們就是一直在打詐、越打越詐！希望我們要用好的方式，要研議為什麼疫情的時間減少了，而不是5月份成立，但8月份一天就被騙那麼多。過去的預算規模都是1,000萬左右，但是明年我們的預算要提升，多了2億，暴漲20倍，沒有拿出政績，預算內容也沒有改，部門越改越回頭，這樣子2億的數據跑到哪裡去？","還有我們行政院目前提出來的新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版根本沒有顯示效果，並未真正落實，但是現在打詐綱領又說要有2.0，請問何時可以出爐？也就是我們一直改變，但是詐騙卻越來越多，所以我們就是要研議如何做得更好，才能保護我們人民不要被詐騙，這個就是我們在關心的！"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員補充報告一下，在2023年之前我們警政署在計算有關於打詐案件數的時候是一案就算一件，但是現在我們的方式是一案如果涉及多人的話就變成多件。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，這是打詐的部分，還有第二個……"],["劉部長世芳：也就是計算的標準不一樣，所以你會看到好像數目字增加非常的多。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，這個部分可能就是要請部長再給我們詳細的資料。"],["劉部長世芳：我現在就是要跟您解釋一下。然後最重要就是我們打詐新四法……"],["麥委員玉珍：還有我想要請問第三個問題，因為我的時間有限，針對警消人力的缺口，他們也一直希望我們來協助，那就是何時可以補齊？關於我們有各種樣式的專案，就是掃黑、肅槍、緝毒、打詐、交通安全的執法專案，還有一些就是我們在消防方面需要的人員，還有我們的工具，這些都不足。以人口比例來講，現在一位消防人員就要服務1,300人，這樣的人員不足，造成我們消防人員的疲勞，甚至過勞死，這個部分我們希望內政部這邊能注重我們消防人員的生命安全。"],["劉部長世芳：是，報告委員，有關警消人力缺口的部分，警政署預計在113年會增加1,300人，消防署的部分，謝謝考試院幫忙，我們現在已經要進用949人，在一定程度上面可以彌補現在的缺口。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝部長，後續請給我書面。","因為時間有限，所以我最後在這邊呼籲執政黨，不管我們來自哪裡、在什麼領域，我們永遠都是媽媽心目中的寶貝，每一個人的生命財產都很重要，如果我們要對別人說我們要全力捍衛中華民國，首先請提出保護自己人民的政策，這樣才有辦法保護我們的國民。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝麥委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝麥委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137701_00007"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}